# Marathon, Broadway, and Catacomb: Upcoming D&D Products?



## GarrettKP (Nov 21, 2017)

Marathon is the first Adventure of the year (Modron March?), Broadway is the big Adventure in the fall, and Catacomb seems to be the "Player Supplement" book.

Edit: Marathon seems to be a supplement and Catacomb an Adventure. But the release dates are backwards?


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## Kramodlog (Nov 21, 2017)

An adventure in September _and_ in November, and the supplement in May? How... odd.


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## pukunui (Nov 21, 2017)

[MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION]: "Dust" was Tomb of Annihilation. I think "Labyrinth" must have been Tales from the Yawning Portal.


Midway = Xanathar's
Cloak = Curse of Strahd
Dagger = Storm King's Thunder


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## Omega9999 (Nov 21, 2017)

2 adventures, one in september and one in november? I hardly think this is correct


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## LordEntrails (Nov 21, 2017)

How do the page counts compare to previous products?


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## GarrettKP (Nov 21, 2017)

My Guesses: 

Marathon = Planar Supplement
Catacomb = Undermountain Adventure
Broadway = Lantan Sea Adventure


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## clavejones (Nov 21, 2017)

I made my best guesses last week: https://nerdsonearth.com/2017/11/evidence-future-dnd-books-storylines/


I was merely speculating based upon my research (and my gut), so please don't jump on me. Just feel free to let us know your guesses! 


Regardless, I'm super excited for whatever they release. They are on fire right now, so I don't suspect that will change.


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## FallenAkriel (Nov 21, 2017)

Nov = Campaign Setting? Dark Sun? Eberron?


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## clavejones (Nov 21, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> My Guesses:
> 
> Marathon = Planar Supplement
> Catacomb = Undermountain Adventure
> Broadway = Lantan Sea Adventure




I like where your head is on a sea adventure. I was thinking Moonshae Isles though. Undermountain hadn't occurred to me as I didn't recall many breadcrumbs for it in previous products. Regardless, I like your thinking!


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## Dried (Nov 21, 2017)

Two adventure products so close? It's strange to say the least...
But if it's true it must have a good reason. Maybe the two adventures are different adventures but can complete each others?

Maybe something like "The Gread Modron March" and "Dead Gods"?


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## clavejones (Nov 21, 2017)

Dried said:


> Two adventure products so close? It's strange to say the least...
> But if it's true it must have a good reason. Maybe the two adventures are different adventures but can complete each others?
> 
> Maybe something like "The Gread Modron March" and "Dead Gods"?




During their panel at Gamehole Con, both Mike Mearls and Chris Lindsay hinted at an adventure that worked independantly but also might span two books. They referenced Hoard and Tiamat as a template. 

High page counts though, so a pretty robust adventure. You might be on to something with Modron March.


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## Quickleaf (Nov 21, 2017)

I wonder if "Marathon" (192-page D&D Accessory coming out in May 2018) will be another adventure compilation like Tales From the Yawning Portal (248-pages, came out in April 2017, but NOT described as an adventure, like other hardcover modules released so far)... drawing inspiration from the Extra Life 24 Hours of D&D events?


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## Parmandur (Nov 21, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> How do the page counts compare to previous products?



192 pages is comparable to SCAG and XGtE, 256 is comparable to the other APs, aside from Tyranny of Dragons.

Dunno how much stock to put in the designations at this point, but the release dates and page counts sound legit. They have said they are moving to one big Adventure product a year, though, and away from any level of interbook dependency...


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## clavejones (Nov 21, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> I wonder if "Marathon" (192-page D&D Accessory coming out in May 2018) will be another adventure compilation like Tales From the Yawning Portal (248-pages, came out in April 2017, but NOT described as an adventure, like other hardcover modules released so far)... drawing inspiration from the Extra Life 24 Hours of D&D events?




I think you are on to something. Development time on something like Yawning is less and D&D always has a nostalgic thread. So it would be leaving money on the table not to do another book like that at some point.


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## Charlaquin (Nov 21, 2017)

If there’s one thing I learned from my days as an MTG player, it’s that WotC’s code names for upcoming products cannot be relied upon to hintvat the contents of the actual product.


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## Juomari Veren (Nov 21, 2017)

I'm fairly certain Labyrinth turned into Tales from the Yawning Portal actually, and Dust was Tomb of Annihilation (Because dust is what a sphere of annihilation turns you into). Midway was most definitely Xanathar's Guide (a lot of the surveys from the UAs leading up to it were titled MidwaysurveyX on release in the url and then quickly changed after a day, like this happened multiple times), but I've no idea what Cloak and Dagger are or were - where did those ones come from? They may be new ones as well.


As for the names given here, I'm excited for Broadway - I hope it's devil-themed. Devils and the stage go so well together (As Pathfinder discovered with Chelaxian Operas). I'd love a melodramatic adventure with fiends that plays out like an opera. There's also been an excessive amount of references to fiends across all of the adventures (and in places like Dice, Camera, Action!) that are supposedly culminating in something story-related. I'm also expecting a Planescape supplement soon - maybe Marathon. The codenames usually lend a vague idea of what the book is about to players, and at 192 players it probably isn't a full adventure, which usually strike out past the 250 page mark.


Catacombs kind of worries me because we just had two adventures that were dungeon-centric, and one that was very heavily themed around death and undeath. I personally don't mind it, but I don't want the market to be saturated with adventures of people going into dungeons and fighting undead at the same time. Someone mentioned Undermountain - a couple years ago they had a special adventure at Origins that was an Adventurer's League exclusive - people said it was an adventure into Undermountain to resurrect Halaster Blackcloak. I've been longing to hear what came of that adventure, as Undermountain is one of my favorite aspects of the Forgotten Realms. I wqould pay good money for anything Undermountain related, though I'll pay good money for anything 5e because I've got a solid track record of collecting every book so far.


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## Mercurius (Nov 21, 2017)

Didn't Mearls say there were four books coming out in 2018? Or is the fourth product the dice?


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## vpuigdoller (Nov 21, 2017)

I would love if Catacomb was related to Thay and the Red Wizards we have seen some of them lately, even in the shores of Chult.  I believe Mearls had said he wanted to revisit Thay at some time?

broadway might be some city centric adventre?


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## jimmifett (Nov 21, 2017)

I don't really care unless it's Eberron material.


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## vpuigdoller (Nov 21, 2017)

jimmifett said:


> I don't really care unless it's Eberron material.




Man... at this point I already lost all hope of anything Eberron related.  I wish, really wish the D&D gods hear you though.


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## ro (Nov 21, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> 192 pages is comparable to SCAG and XGtE, 256 is comparable to the other APs, aside from Tyranny of Dragons.
> 
> Dunno how much stock to put in the designations at this point, but the release dates and page counts sound legit. They have said they are moving to one big Adventure product a year, though, and away from any level of interbook dependency...




I imagine that the page counts are not the actual counts. 256 and 192 are very computer-y numbers (multiples of 64). They are probably placeholders representing approximate or relative length.


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## Morrus (Nov 21, 2017)

ro said:


> I imagine that the page counts are not the actual counts. 256 and 192 are very computer-y numbers (multiples of 64). They are probably placeholders representing approximate or relative length.




Offset printing requires multiples of 8 (or 16 or 32).


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## Jason C Dalton (Nov 21, 2017)

I would love to see something new about Myth Drannor. I loved that boxed set, and think it could use some fine polishing and maybe an updated story line.


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## Superchunk77 (Nov 21, 2017)

I am thinking at least one of these products will be the psionics and/or artificer supplement that's been in the works. This could include setting details for dark sun, eberron, etc. as required. But who knows.


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## M.T. Black (Nov 21, 2017)

I think Mike has said they are only going to do one major story adventure per year. Can't find the reference, for the life of me.


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## Juomari Veren (Nov 21, 2017)

Mercurius said:


> Didn't Mearls say there were four books coming out in 2018? Or is the fourth product the dice?




Should be four books - they don't normally count accessories in release slots like that, they just come out as they're ready. Tomb of Annihilation's dice were announced in tandem with the adventure back in June, it's likely that there's probably all sorts of random side-products plan, least of which includes 2-3 new miniature sets from WizKids. 

My wallet already aches at the mere mention of more books, less alone any other enticing peripherals they can whip up in their spare time.


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## blancaberlin (Nov 21, 2017)

Broadway _must_ be Dragonlance because of the soap opera reference ;-)


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## Benji (Nov 21, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> Man... at this point I already lost all hope of anything Eberron related.  I wish, really wish the D&D gods hear you though.




They've said they will be releasing a book with both Mystic (psion) class and Artificer class next year. What campaign setting would need those two things? Don't give up hope yet.


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## Tiles (Nov 21, 2017)

Broadway may be sigil?


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## Toriel (Nov 21, 2017)

It does make me think of Planescape with roads that lead everywhere. Maybe some sort of supplement for it and an adventure?


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## Sacrosanct (Nov 21, 2017)

Marathon: a book with the Warlord class and it's 25 subclasses, as well as revisions to the fighter giving them oodles of out of combat hard baked in features like underwater basketweaving, but taking away those two extra feats
Catacomb: A monster manual where every monster takes up 6 pages because each one has a zillion abilities listed out in detail to make them not boring.  A whole lot of cut and pasting, as each entry has the full description of each power (each monster with, say, fireball for example will have the full spell description in that entry)
Boadway: One giant apology book from the DEVs saying how sorry they are for being lazy and incompetent.


There, now EVERYONE CAN BE HAPPY!


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## Parmandur (Nov 21, 2017)

ro said:


> I imagine that the page counts are not the actual counts. 256 and 192 are very computer-y numbers (multiples of 64). They are probably placeholders representing approximate or relative length.



Um, no: books are bound in 32 page folios, for various boring technical reasons. You will find that most any books will be a power of 2.


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## pukunui (Nov 21, 2017)

Juomari Veren said:


> I'm fairly certain Labyrinth turned into Tales from the Yawning Portal actually, and Dust was Tomb of Annihilation (Because dust is what a sphere of annihilation turns you into). Midway was most definitely Xanathar's Guide (a lot of the surveys from the UAs leading up to it were titled MidwaysurveyX on release in the url and then quickly changed after a day, like this happened multiple times), but I've no idea what Cloak and Dagger are or were - where did those ones come from? They may be new ones as well.



Check out post #3.

As for Undermountain: As I've said elsewhere, since rumor has it the D&D movie is going to be based around Waterdeep/Undermountain, my guess is they're holding this adventure back so they can release it with the movie.


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## Parmandur (Nov 21, 2017)

Mercurius said:


> Didn't Mearls say there were four books coming out in 2018? Or is the fourth product the dice?



Mearls did hint at that. Interesting hypothesis, though: they released a Magic: the he Gathering level 4 5E module at the latest PAX Con, and it states on the back that more material set in the world's of Magic: the Gathering can be found at the DMs Guild, which is not currently the case. Maybe the WotC Magic team will be releasing an actual 5E conversion product in 2018, and that was the fourth product Mearls waffled about in that panel.


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## Parmandur (Nov 21, 2017)

Toriel said:


> It does make me think of Planescape with roads that lead everywhere. Maybe some sort of supplement for it and an adventure?



That could be: Broadway being the March of the Modrons (since they keep bringing that up), with a Manual of the Planes in November? They have been testing an awfully large amount of Planar material in UA recently.


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## Parmandur (Nov 21, 2017)

With the caveat that the names probably say nothing about the actual products, the Broadway Marathon in New York City is a pretty big deal. And Catacomb is pretty generic for a D&D codeword.


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## pukunui (Nov 21, 2017)

So far only Dust and Cloak have provided hints as to their subject matter (tombs are dusty; vampires wear cloaks). Dagger was something of a red herring. Midway didn't really mean anything, unless Xanathar's is truly the midway point of 5e's lifespan or something.

They could just be toying with us to generate speculation with regards to these new ones.


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## Quickleaf (Nov 21, 2017)

pukunui said:


> So far only Dust and Cloak have provided hints as to their subject matter (tombs are dusty; vampires wear cloaks). Dagger was something of a red herring. Midway didn't really mean anything, unless Xanathar's is truly the midway point of 5e's lifespan or something.
> 
> They could just be toying with us to generate speculation with regards to these new ones.




"Dagger" was a reference to MacBeth ("is this a dagger I see before me"), building on Chris Perkins' hints about "Shakespeare with giants." >Storm King's Thunder

"Cloak" may have been a reference to the classic I6 Strahd cover illustration by Clyde Caldwell. >Curse of Strahd

"Dust" was a reference to "ashes to ashes, dust to dust", reflecting the Death Curse of Acererack. >Tomb of Annihilation.

"Midway" was included in many titles/URLs of the playtest surveys for Unearthed Arcana. >Xanathar's Guide to Everything

For rampant speculation about "Marathon"...


A marathon is 26.219 miles, which is close to the old TSR product codes for several Planescape products, such as TSR2620 Planewalker's Handbook, TSR2621 Hellbound, TSR2628 Great Modron March, TSR2629 Faction War, TSR2631 Dead Gods, etc.
A marathon is about 26 miles, and the Dungeon-ranked 26th best adventure of all time was Greyhawk's City of Skulls...which builds on some of Mike Mearls' "Greyhawk" rules & Chris Perkins' thoughts on leveraging Iuz for a theoretical Greyhawk release.
Marathon-gaming refers to long D&D sessions, like the 24 Hours of D&D events for Extralife.org they've been running since 2014. Maybe others more well informed could speculate about stories unique to Extralife.org.
The word marathon comes from the fabled run of the Greek soldier Pheidippides, a messenger from the Battle of Marathon to Athens, who reported the victory. So that could be the premise for a war-based adventure.
May 2018 release & 192 page count suggest "Marathon" may be a release with less overhead than longer new hardback adventures, similar to Tales From the Yawning Portal. Perhaps some kind of competition loosely may connect the individual adventures, like a marathon connecting milestones.


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## Sacrosanct (Nov 21, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> For rampant speculation about "Marathon"...
> 
> 
> A marathon is 26.219 miles, which is close to the old TSR product codes for several Planescape products, such as TSR2621 Hellbound, TSR2628 Great Modron March, TSR2631 Dead Gods, etc.
> ...




I think the proof is obvious.  

A marathon is 26.219 miles, like you say.  On the left of the decimal is 26: 2+6 = 8.  And the right side is 219: 2+1+9 = 12.  
On the left side of the book is the date, and what is the last digit for the year?  That's right, 8.  On the right side is the page count: 192 pages.  1+9+2 = 12.

Coincidence?  I think not.  And what is 8+12?  20 of course.  Divide 20 by the 2 sides, and you get 10.  How many letters are in "Planescape"?  :O  

It can't be more obvious.


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## pukunui (Nov 21, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> "Dagger" was a reference to MacBeth ("is this a dagger I see before me") ...



 Yeah, that could be. Except that there's barely any Shakespeare in there sadly.



> "Cloak" may have been ...



Or it could have just been a reference to the fact that vampires are often depicted wearing cloaks.



> "Dust" was a reference to "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"



Could be.



> "Midway" was included in many titles/URLs of the playtest surveys for Unearthed Arcana.



Yeah, but that doesn't give us any indication of meaning.


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## Sword of Spirit (Nov 22, 2017)

Charlaquin said:


> If there’s one thing I learned from my days as an MTG player, it’s that WotC’s code names for upcoming products cannot be relied upon to hintvat the contents of the actual product.




However, so far they _have_. Maybe not obvious, but they made sense after the fact. People even guessed right on Dust as having to do with Chult and Acerak = Tomb of Annihilation, and Midway referring to the playtests of new crunch = Xanathar's. I'd say the best bet for speculation is to start with other hints and then see if any of the names support those.


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

pukunui said:


> Yeah, that could be. Except that there's barely any Shakespeare in there sadly.
> 
> Or it could have just been a reference to the fact that vampires are often depicted wearing cloaks.
> 
> ...



Oh, you tease: they do a decent job of coming up with codenames that make sufficient sense for internal communications, with zero risk of clueing us fans in when they slip. Part of it but may be that they haven't finalized the real names yet: Perkins talked quite a bit about the legal/marketing shennanigans of naming Sky King's Thunder, they went through a lot of possibilities. Whereas the codename means they can talk about the project without that being nailed down yet.


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## pukunui (Nov 22, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Part of it but may be that they haven't finalized the real names yet: Perkins talked quite a bit about the legal/marketing shennanigans of naming Sky King's Thunder, they went through a lot of possibilities. Whereas the codename means they can talk about the project without that being nailed down yet.



Yeah, there's that too.


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## Kobold Avenger (Nov 22, 2017)

Broadway is totally a Complete Guide to Bards, with rules detailing adventuring musical theatre troupes.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 22, 2017)

I'm willing to wager that "Catacomb" is _not_ going to be an adventure, but more likely an accessory.

Why? Well, it's being released only two months after "Broadway", and there is no way they would release two 256-page adventures in such a short time frame. Unless a group was playing marathon sessions during that period, there is no way they would be able to complete the first before the second was released. Since "Broadway" is being released concurrently with dice, and since the September release has in recent years been the big adventure for the year, I'm going with "Broadway" being and adventure with "Catacomb" being a typical November accessory release.


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I'm willing to wager that "Catacomb" is _not_ going to be an adventure, but more likely an accessory.
> 
> Why? Well, it's being released only two months after "Broadway", and there is no way they would release two 256-page adventures in such a short time frame. Unless a group was playing marathon sessions during that period, there is no way they would be able to complete the first before the second was released. Since "Broadway" is being released concurrently with dice, and since the September release has in recent years been the big adventure for the year, I'm going with "Broadway" being and adventure with "Catacomb" being a typical November accessory release.



I checked how the site in question catagorizes other books: Out of the Abyss us a "D&D Accessory," rather thanks Adventure. Release dates, page counts seem legit, probably codenames too.


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## LordEntrails (Nov 22, 2017)

pukunui said:


> As for Undermountain: As I've said elsewhere, since rumor has it the D&D movie is going to be based around Waterdeep/Undermountain, my guess is they're holding this adventure back so they can release it with the movie.



I was going to say something very similar.

Though there is nothing recent on the movie, last we heard the movie was going to be Undermountain. Since filing hasn't started yet its pretty safe to assume the movie won't be released in 2018. And have to agree that they won't publish the adventure until they coordinate it with the movie.


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> I was going to say something very similar.
> 
> Though there is nothing recent on the movie, last we heard the movie was going to be Undermountain. Since filing hasn't started yet its pretty safe to assume the movie won't be released in 2018. And have to agree that they won't publish the adventure until they coordinate it with the movie.



I would speculate that they are intentionally linking in characters who will appear in the movie...like Volo, Xanathar, or the bartender dude.


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## briggart (Nov 22, 2017)

They are clearly going to be 3 "how-to-draw-maps" supplements: "Marathon" will focus on the local/county (few tens of miles) scale, "Broadway" will show towns, neighborhoods, districts, etc. with individual streets called out, and "Catacomb" will feature dungeons, sewers and the like.


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## dalisprime (Nov 22, 2017)

Let's look at the seeds planted in ToA for hints (after all,  SKT hinted at the Ring of Winter and Artus) - we have the lost city of Mezzro which could be an extraplanar adventure (and we certainly have hints of extraplanar stuff based on archetypes and race previews) we also have the hint that the Yuan-ti aren't quite done with their goal of bringing Dendar to our world (and this would be based under the flame peaks allegedly). Now the latter option is less likely given that it's based around Chult again (although they could move some of the action east to explore the rest of Chultan peninsula or stretch all the way to Halruaa of which we also have hints with the crashed airship) and hinges on what the PCs do with a certain object within the Tot9G.


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## Li Shenron (Nov 22, 2017)

Morrus said:


> *D&D "Marathon" HC*
> By Rpg Team Wizards
> ISBN: 9780786966240
> format: Hardcover
> ...




I'd say that the info is wrong and "Broadway" is the next rules expansion book much like "Midway" was Xanathar, and thus "Marathon" is another adventure.

At least May is too early for going through the process of releasing more playtest versions of the psionics rules, getting the feedback, fixing it again, editing the book etc... and we know that this is most likely what is going to end up in the next expansion book. And such book is probably also getting something else as well, including possibly new stuff we haven't seen yet but they might want to preview in UA as well.


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## DEFCON 1 (Nov 22, 2017)

My guesses are:

Marathon [May]: a gazetteer of the planes and alternate campaign settings, perhaps a chapter on each
Broadway [Sep]: the massive high-level planar-hopping adventure, perhaps using Sigil as the hub (Sigil thought of being analogous to Broadway / Time Square-- massive, crowded, bright, and full of tourists)
Catacomb [Nov]: the player/DM book with new races, features, classes, subclasses for all the other campaign settings besides FR


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## Tormyr (Nov 22, 2017)

Seeing "Marathon", I was hoping for a collaboration with Bungie.


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## tjf (Nov 22, 2017)

My guess for Catacomb, based on WOTC's past record of taking a module that sold very well and re-writing it, would be a new take on Desert of Desolation.  Probably taking place in Calimsham.  They've already collaborated with Tracy and Laura Hickman with Curse of Strahd.


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

Li Shenron said:


> I'd say that the info is wrong and "Broadway" is the next rules expansion book much like "Midway" was Xanathar, and thus "Marathon" is another adventure.
> 
> At least May is too early for going through the process of releasing more playtest versions of the psionics rules, getting the feedback, fixing it again, editing the book etc... and we know that this is most likely what is going to end up in the next expansion book. And such book is probably also getting something else as well, including possibly new stuff we haven't seen yet but they might want to preview in UA as well.



Well, we don't know that the Mystical or Artificer will make it into a book this coming year, really: they both still have another round of design, at least, for public play test, whereas it sounds like the 2018 books are already set.

 My guess is a monster book, ala Volo's Guide: crunchy, but not Xanathar's level of balancing needed for the material.

Broadway is right in the AL Season slot, so it's almost certainly the annual Adventure, my guess is March of the Modrons, leading into Catacombs...a 5E Manual of the Planes, meaty enough that it needs 256 pages to cover the subject, which we are seeing tested in UA right now.


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## Zarithar (Nov 22, 2017)

Pretty sure its Planescape related.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 22, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Well, we don't know that the Mystical or Artificer will make it into a book this coming year, really: they both still have another round of design, at least, for public play test, whereas it sounds like the 2018 books are already set.
> 
> My guess is a monster book, ala Volo's Guide: crunchy, but not Xanathar's level of balancing needed for the material.
> 
> Broadway is right in the AL Season slot, so it's almost certainly the annual Adventure, my guess is March of the Modrons, leading into Catacombs...a 5E Manual of the Planes, meaty enough that it needs 256 pages to cover the subject, which we are seeing tested in UA right now.





Wow, that is almost exactly what I was thinking! It's like you can read my mind 

If so, what will the new Volo's-type book (or actual Volo's book - they may want to keep the theme up for monster books) cover? Dragons are an obvious choice, as they do make up half of the game's name after all, but reasonably assuming that such a book would bring gem dragons into 5th edition, would they want to do that before psionics for the edition is finalized? Ir perhaps update them like mind flayers and intellect devourers are now and cover any necessary changes once the psionics book comes out? And if they do want to wait on dragons until later, what would this book cover then?

A 256 Manual of the Planes type book would be really nice (especially since the 3e version only got 224 pages), but then again I would think it would dedicate more room for advice on how to play and DM in the Planes, as well as giving us updates on monsters not yet brought into 5e (c'mon, we need our celestials!). Part of me thinks they would be wanting to get to officially updating artificers and psionics to 5e, and doing the obvious and more or less concurrently updating Eberron, but covering the Planes first, so players have a framework for getting from one setting to another should they so wish, does seem a necessary first step before doing so...


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Wow, that is almost exactly what I was thinking! It's like you can read my mind
> 
> If so, what will the new Volo's-type book (or actual Volo's book - they may want to keep the theme up for monster books) cover? Dragons are an obvious choice, as they do make up half of the game's name after all, but reasonably assuming that such a book would bring gem dragons into 5th edition, would they want to do that before psionics for the edition is finalized? Ir perhaps update them like mind flayers and intellect devourers are now and cover any necessary changes once the psionics book comes out? And if they do want to wait on dragons until later, what would this book cover then?
> 
> A 256 Manual of the Planes type book would be really nice (especially since the 3e version only got 224 pages), but then again I would think it would dedicate more room for advice on how to play and DM in the Planes, as well as giving us updates on monsters not yet brought into 5e (c'mon, we need our celestials!). Part of me thinks they would be wanting to get to officially updating artificers and psionics to 5e, and doing the obvious and more or less concurrently updating Eberron, but covering the Planes first, so players have a framework for getting from one setting to another should they so wish, does seem a necessary first step before doing so...



I actually think a (Whoever's) Guide to Dragons in the style of VGtM is likely sooner or later, as it is both useful for customers and lucrative for WotC. They could probably cover that material in the Marathon page count comfortably, too: extended write-up for the ten classic Dragons, and a Draconic bestiary. They have plenty of Psionc monsters already, so Gem Dragons shouldn't be a huge problem in MM blocks.

I think Catacomb is what we have been seeing in the UA recently: multiversal PC options, and extended detail on Devil and Demon cults. I wager we may see a focus more on the lower portion of the Great Wheel, with Volo's style extended work on major Planar threats and how to work them in over the course of a campaign.


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## Colorblind_cl (Nov 22, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> I think the proof is obvious.
> 
> A marathon is 26.219 miles, like you say.  On the left of the decimal is 26: 2+6 = 8.  And the right side is 219: 2+1+9 = 12.
> On the left side of the book is the date, and what is the last digit for the year?  That's right, 8.  On the right side is the page count: 192 pages.  1+9+2 = 12.
> ...




We are reaching some Half-Life 3 kind of  here.


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## jimmytheccomic (Nov 22, 2017)

To me, "Broadway" evokes the idea of a big glitzy Fey Adventure, and "Catacomb" could be Yawning Portal 2.


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## Burnside (Nov 22, 2017)

Pretty sure it's been stated that the current AL season is supposed to run for a full year, which would support the idea of no new adventure book until September 2018.

Maybe...

May = rules supplement
Sep = big adventure
Nov = Yawning Portal-style compilation

Only issue there is it seems odd to publish back-to-back rules books (Xanathar in Nov 2017 followed by another one in May 2018).

Pretty sure Mearls or Perkins said they were unlikely to do pure gazeteer/setting-based material (a choice supported by SCAG being the weakest-selling book of the 5E line) but would rather present setting info in the form of an adventure a la CoS, SKT, and ToA. So I doubt they'd do a stand-alone "Manual of the Planes" type book for May 2018.


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

Burnside said:


> Pretty sure it's been stated that the current AL season is supposed to run for a full year, which would support the idea of no new adventure book until September 2018.
> 
> Maybe...
> 
> ...



I doubt they would do a Planes book for May, either, since that book is already written per Mearls earlier commentary, and they are testing Planar material now (about the time to test for next November, ala XGtE). They seem pretty set at one Adventure book per year now, at least. A Planes book wouldn't necessarily be setting material, so much as PC and monster material: here are the rules for Gith PCs (being tested in UA), here is a breakdown of the Archduke's of Hell and how they relate to their cults (being tested in UA), here is some info on how Demon Lords pervert their followers (being tested in UA), and so on. Setting material proper for a Planar AP, "generic D&D Planes" material for Eliminster's Guide to the Cosmos (or whatever).

The May release is the real Wild Card: I feel that will be a rules supplement, but something less rules innovative than Xanathar's Guide, and less in need of gouging public interest than whatever Planar book they are brewing. Dragons seem a decent bet, but time shall tell.


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## robus (Nov 22, 2017)

I really can't believe there will be back to back rules supplements! I think:

May will be the classic adventures reboot (a la TotYP) - small packages to insert into homebrew campaigns and not requiring a big commitment from a group.

Sep is the big setting expansion (a compilation of setting info and rules expansion to support those settings)

Nov is the big adventure - it's the Undermountain megadungeon they were going to release last year but had to sub in the classic adventure reboot because of the movie timing... (total guess  ) but there's not been any good explanation as to why the entrance to Undermountain was described but none of the adventures are set there...


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

robus said:


> I really can't believe there will be back to back rules supplements! I think:
> 
> May will be the classic adventures reboot (a la TotYP) - small packages to insert into homebrew campaigns and not requiring a big commitment from a group.
> 
> ...



Reason to suppose the September book is the adventure is the Adventurer's League season timing: that and it has a tie-in dice set just like ToA.


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## robus (Nov 22, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Reason to suppose the September book is the adventure is the Adventurer's League season timing: that and it has a tie-in dice set just like ToA.




You're probably right and really there's been little movement on the movie front (thank goodness!) so I'm not really convinced. So perhaps I have the last two reversed (and the movie connection is madness  ) - but I'll eat my hat if there's another rules expansion after Xanathar!


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## Burnside (Nov 22, 2017)

robus said:


> You're probably right and really there's been little movement on the movie front (thank goodness!) so I'm not really convinced. So perhaps I have the last two reversed (and the movie connection is madness  ) - but I'll eat my hat if there's another rules expansion after Xanathar!




May - compilation
Sep - adventure
Nov - supplement 

...is what I would prefer, but I guess we'll see. Should be a lot clearer in a couple of months.


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## Parmandur (Nov 22, 2017)

robus said:


> You're probably right and really there's been little movement on the movie front (thank goodness!) so I'm not really convinced. So perhaps I have the last two reversed (and the movie connection is madness  ) - but I'll eat my hat if there's another rules expansion after Xanathar!



It has the right page count for a rules accessory; probably not going to be a player-centric or variant rule heavy book: but a fluffy book with monsters? Nothing like Xanathar's Guide, seems plausible.


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## GarrettKP (Nov 22, 2017)

I'd guess that Marathon is actually an expansion or sequel of sorts to Tomb of Annihilation. Since the AL season is going long. Maybe the Lantan adventure that Perkins mentioned on their podcast a month back? Could be a level 11+ adventure add on to keep the Chult stuff going long enough for them to finish whatever Catacomb and Broadway are.


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## IchneumonWasp (Nov 22, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> It has the right page count for a rules accessory; probably not going to be a player-centric or variant rule heavy book: but a fluffy but ok with monsters? Nothing like Xanathar's Guide.




Yeah, maybe something similar to Volo's guide to monsters? Primarily aimed at DM's, with also some cool options for players.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 23, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> The May release is the real Wild Card: I feel that will be a rules supplement, but something less rules innovative than Xanathar's Guide, and less in need of gouging public interest than whatever Planar book they are brewing. Dragons seem a decent bet, but time shall tell.




Something I just thought of - maybe a Volo's-type guide to dragons (as we discussed before), but instead some of the page count going towards player races as in Volo's, we see some mini-adventures centered around typical dragon lairs? That will make it not only useful for DMs in describing new monsters and fluff for old ones, but give them some one-shot or drop-in adventures for ongoing campaigns...


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Something I just thought of - maybe a Volo's-type guide to dragons (as we discussed before), but instead some of the page count going towards player races as in Volo's, we see some mini-adventures centered around typical dragon lairs? That will make it not only useful for DMs in describing new monsters and fluff for old ones, but give them some one-shot or drop-in adventures for ongoing campaigns...



Well, if we theorized a chapter deep diving into the ten iconic dragons about the length of chapter one of Volo's, and a bestiary about the length of chapter three of Volo's, that brings us, interestingly, to about 192 pages.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 23, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Well, of we theorized a chapter deep diving into the ten iconic dragons about the length of chapter one of Volo's, and a bestiary about the length of chapter three of Volo's, that brings us, interestingly, to about 192 pages.




Volo's Bestiary section is 100 pages long (exactly so, interestingly enough), but the Monster Manual only needs 33 pages to detail all 10 chromatic and metallic dragon types. I can't see there being enough new dragon types to fill up a full 100 pages. Even if they detail some unique dragons and/or some draconic-type creatures (it would be neat to see Dragonlance's draconians get detailed, for example), they would be hard-pressed to fill that allotted page count (well, unless they went the 3e route and updated - or created - all sorts of weird dragon types just to fill space). And detailing non-draconic creatures would be really odd...

Give me a bestiary with the gem dragons, the lung dragons, a few old-school non-"true" dragons (like the brown dragon), the draconians, and a reasonable number of non-dragon draconic creatures, and I'll be happy, even if it caps out at 50 pages...


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## Hutchimus Prime (Nov 23, 2017)

Wonder if Catacomb could refer to Sigil in some way?


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## Herosmith14 (Nov 23, 2017)

My thoughts...

Marathon-Multisetting Sourcebook. (Each setting is a movie, movie MARATHON)

Broadway-No idea, I only came on with 5e, so I have no clue if there are any things that it might reference is lore. Hopefully though, it sources off of the (speculated) multisetting sourcebook. On second thought, might be RP heavy adventure. Acting.

Catacomb. Adventure, obviously, but I think Dungeon/Combat heavy, because if I'm right, it would be a nice contrast with Broadway, and hopefully would source out of the (speculated) multisetting book.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Volo's Bestiary section is 100 pages long (exactly so, interestingly enough), but the Monster Manual only needs 33 pages to detail all 10 chromatic and metallic dragon types. I can't see there being enough new dragon types to fill up a full 100 pages. Even if they detail some unique dragons and/or some draconic-type creatures (it would be neat to see Dragonlance's draconians get detailed, for example), they would be hard-pressed to fill that allotted page count (well, unless they went the 3e route and updated - or created - all sorts of weird dragon types just to fill space). And detailing non-draconic creatures would be really odd...
> 
> Give me a bestiary with the gem dragons, the lung dragons, a few old-school non-"true" dragons (like the brown dragon), the draconians, and a reasonable number of non-dragon draconic creatures, and I'll be happy, even if it caps out at 50 pages...



Reckon you have a point: there are an awfully large number of older Edition Draconic critters, though.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2017)

[MENTION=6801060]Demetrios1453[/MENTION] an interesting thought occurs to me, as well, regarding Dragons: Dragonborn are the 5th most popular player race, after Han/Half-Elf/Elf/Dwarf, but probably the least developed: Ecology of the Dragonborn alongside other Draconic material...?


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 23, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> [MENTION=6801060]Demetrios1453[/MENTION] an interesting thought occurs to me, as well, regarding Dragons: Dragonborn are the 5th most popular player race, after Han/Half-Elf/Elf/Dwarf, but probably the least developed: Ecology of the Dragonborn alongside other Draconic material...?




Now that is a good point - it would add something for the player side which is otherwise lacking in our theoretical book. Maybe a short update on Tyrmanther as well...

As for your point about previous editions' glut of dragons, well, I alluded to that in my last post, and am heartily hoping this edition avoids it. 2nd edition pushed the limits of what was reasonable concerning dragon species, and 3rd completely went beyond the pale in my opinion. Given this edition's history of restraint, I assume they aren't planning on going down that road again and will keep the types of dragons out there to a reasonable level...


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Now that is a good point - it would add something for the player side which is otherwise lacking in our theoretical book. Maybe a short update on Tyrmanther as well...
> 
> As for your point about previous editions' glut of dragons, well, I alluded to that in my last post, and am heartily hoping this edition avoids it. 2nd edition pushed the limits of what was reasonable concerning dragon species, and 3rd completely went beyond the pale in my opinion. Given this edition's history of restraint, I assume they aren't planning on going down that road again and will keep the types of dragons out there to a reasonable level...



Hope springs eternal.


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## Staffan (Nov 23, 2017)

Assuming the information about Broadway and Labyrinth both being big adventures and released only two months apart is true, it would sound likely that they're a two-part adventure much like Hoard of the Dragon Queen + Rise of Tiamat.

I think it's kind of useless to speculate on the contents of a product based on a single word that may or may not be related in hindsight. I mean, sure, Cloak = Vampire and Dagger = Shakespearean giants... you can make sense of it after the fact, but that's some Law of Fives-level justification.


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## pukunui (Nov 23, 2017)

Staffan said:


> Assuming the information about Broadway and Labyrinth both being big adventures and released only two months apart is true, it would sound likely that they're a two-part adventure much like Hoard of the Dragon Queen + Rise of Tiamat.
> 
> I think it's kind of useless to speculate on the contents of a product based on a single word that may or may not be related in hindsight. I mean, sure, Cloak = Vampire and Dagger = Shakespearean giants... you can make sense of it after the fact, but that's some Law of Fives-level justification.



Indeed. I mean, it's entirely possible that they codenamed SKT "Dagger" simply because they'd codenamed the previous one "Cloak" so they could have a little chuckle about "cloak and dagger".



 [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION]: Could you please get back to me regarding the PMs I've sent you pertaining to comments you've made in this thread?


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2017)

Staffan said:


> Assuming the information about Broadway and Labyrinth both being big adventures and released only two months apart is true, it would sound likely that they're a two-part adventure much like Hoard of the Dragon Queen + Rise of Tiamat.
> 
> I think it's kind of useless to speculate on the contents of a product based on a single word that may or may not be related in hindsight. I mean, sure, Cloak = Vampire and Dagger = Shakespearean giants... you can make sense of it after the fact, but that's some Law of Fives-level justification.



Considering that they just stated they wouldn't be doing something like Hoard/Tiamat again, even if it is two adventures I expect they will be distinct.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2017)

pukunui said:


> Indeed. I mean, it's entirely possible that they codenamed SKT "Dagger" simply because they'd codenamed the previous one "Cloak" so they could have a little chuckle about "cloak and dagger".
> 
> 
> 
> [MENTION=6780330]Parmandur[/MENTION]: Could you please get back to me regarding the PMs I've sent you pertaining to comments you've made in this thread?



The Shakespeare connection was because Perkins kept mentioning it at Cons and such, so the codename had a Shakespearean loose connection, though it told nothing about the AP itself.

Apologies about that, can't see my PMs on the App, lemme see if I can access those.


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## pukunui (Nov 23, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> The Shakespeare connection was because Perkins kept mentioning it at Cons and such, so the codename had a Shakespearean loose connection, though it told nothing about the AP itself.



OK. I wasn't aware of that. I don't attend any cons, living on the other side of the world as I do. Still, I'm guessing their first thought was "cloak and dagger" ...



> Apologies about that, can't see my PMs on the App, lemme see if I can access those.



Thanks. I wondered if maybe that was the case. But I was kind of in panic mode yesterday, so I assumed you were deliberately ignoring me.


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## pukunui (Nov 23, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Considering that they just stated they wouldn't be doing something like Hoard/Tiamat again, even if it is two adventures I expect they will be distinct.



That was my thought too.

I'm more inclined to think that Catacomb is not an adventure, though.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2017)

pukunui said:


> OK. I wasn't aware of that. I don't attend any cons, living on the other side of the world as I do. Still, I'm guessing their first thought was "cloak and dagger" ...
> 
> Thanks. I wondered if maybe that was the case. But I was kind of in panic mode yesterday, so I assumed you were deliberately ignoring me.



No worries, I legitimately thought nobody was PMing me this whole time?

For sure, Cloak & Dagger was in their mind: Perkins would Tweet about a Year inspired Giant story, which is in SKT even if I would call it a minor note.


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## pukunui (Nov 23, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> No worries, I legitimately thought nobody was PMing me this whole time?



That's all right.



> For sure, Cloak & Dagger was in their mind: Perkins would Tweet about a Year inspired Giant story, which is in SKT even if I would call it a minor note.



I do recall him saying there were some vague Shakespeare connections, but not that the codename "Dagger" itself had them. But it's all good. I do wish SKT had more overt Shakespearean connections, but that's a topic for another thread.


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## Eltab (Nov 23, 2017)

Wild guesses

Broadway: 
- the road to hell is broad but the road to heaven is narrow.  Welcome to the Lower Planes!
- an adventure based on _Phantom of the Opera_.
- world-building material inspired by 3e _City of Splendors: Waterdeep_

Marathon:
- something Classical Greek flavored, using Bulfinch's Mythology to describe personalities and activities * *personal favorite**
- long adventure that has a LOT of travel involved and not easy to bring to an end
- Battle of Helms Deep (as seen in the movie) for 5e

Catacomb:
- Another adventure set in some famous dead (we think) guy's tomb
- designing your own dungeons
- Menzobarranzan / Drow, the OotA chapter was just a teaser for this classic location


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## Eltab (Nov 23, 2017)

Sacrosanct said:


> I think the proof is obvious.



I think I need an aspirin.
Because you have just elucidated Excedrin Headache Number SQRT(-PI).


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 24, 2017)

Catacomb would be too obvious a name, but remember how they did an event at a convention earlier this year where everyone in the room worked together to design a mega-dungeon, and afterward, either Mearls or Crawford said they would find some way to package it up and release it for sale to the general playing population.


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## Shroomy (Nov 24, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> The Shakespeare connection was because Perkins kept mentioning it at Cons and such, so the codename had a Shakespearean loose connection, though it told nothing about the AP itself.
> 
> Apologies about that, can't see my PMs on the App, lemme see if I can access those.




SKT is in part inspired by Mike Selinker's "Lear the Giant-King" from Dungeon 78, which is of course based on King Lear. 



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## Zsig (Nov 24, 2017)

Not sure if it was mentioned before (or whether if it is relevant) but as far as I could remember, most miniature sets ties in with some sort of product, be it an adventure/campaign book or otherwise.

The next miniature set has an aquatic theme to it... maybe it is something, who knows?

http://www.minisgallery.com/dnd/dnd12.htm


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## pukunui (Nov 24, 2017)

[MENTION=56809]Zsig[/MENTION]: Looks more like an SKT redux. Kraken, goblin-chucking ogre ... The Mouth of Grolantor is from Volo's, though.


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## Parmandur (Nov 24, 2017)

Yeah, and the minis haven't always had extremely strong product ties per se: lots of Thri-Kreen minis, for instance.


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## gyor (Nov 24, 2017)

They've been doing Planar themed UAs,  it's pretty obvious that Marathon is a Planar Themed player/DM accessory.


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## Parmandur (Nov 24, 2017)

gyor said:


> They've been doing Planar themed UAs,  it's pretty obvious that Marathon is a Planar Themed player/DM accessory.



Probably not Marathon; that one has already been written and sent to the printer, per the Gameholecon panel: they wouldn't be testing that now. My bet is that Catacomb is a Planar accessory, since the timing is similar to the Xanathar's testing (and I don't believe the "Adventure" designation, nor think the codenames mean much at all).


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## gyor (Nov 25, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Probably not Marathon; that one has already been written and sent to the printer, per the Gameholecon panel: they wouldn't be testing that now. My bet is that Catacomb is a Planar accessory, since the timing is similar to the Xanathar's testing (and I don't believe the "Adventure" designation, nor think the codenames mean much at all).




 Well one of them is going to be a multiversal setting. I said Planar,  but upon thinking about it,  multiversal makes more sense given the Elves UA. The Githyanki and Githzerai are linked primarily to Planescape, Fey Eldarin and Shadar Kai are primarily linked to Nentir Vale,  they've done UAs in the past for Changelings, Shifters,  and Warforge,  which is primarily Eberron,  Minotuars and Kender which are primarily Dragonlance. And they recently did Gracgulch Elves which are primarily Greyhawk. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Muls,  Half Giants, and Thrikreen in the next UA. 

 I say Primarily in reference because FR has Githzerai,  Githyanki,  Eldarin, Shadar Kai,  Shifters, Changelings (a bit as a template of half doppelgangers before the proper race was created), Minotaurs, Thrikreen, half giants, and even half Dwarves (basically Muls, but with hair). The Gracgultch elves are basically the same as Wild Elves. Warforged haven't appeared in FR, but there are at least half a dozen or more civilizations in FR that could build them. Lantan, Imaskar, Mulhorand, Netheril, a ton of ancient Elven Kingdoms during the Crown Wars, Ancient Jhaamdath, Shou Lung, Zakhara. But many of these races have a Primary setting they are linked to traditionally.


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## pukunui (Nov 25, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Yeah, and the minis haven't always had extremely strong product ties per se: lots of Thri-Kreen minis, for instance.



This wouldn't be the first time that a new set has had models from a previous adventure either. The Rage of Demons set had several elemental myrmidons from _Princes of the Apocalypse_, for instance.


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## Parmandur (Nov 25, 2017)

gyor said:


> Well one of them is going to be a multiversal setting. I said Planar,  but upon thinking about it,  multiversal makes more sense given the Elves UA. The Githyanki and Githzerai are linked primarily to Planescape, Fey Eldarin and Shadar Kai are primarily linked to Nentir Vale,  they've done UAs in the past for Changelings, Shifters,  and Warforge,  which is primarily Eberron,  Minotuars and Kender which are primarily Dragonlance. And they recently did Gracgulch Elves which are primarily Greyhawk. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Muls,  Half Giants, and Thrikreen in the next UA.
> 
> I say Primarily in reference because FR has Githzerai,  Githyanki,  Eldarin, Shadar Kai,  Shifters, Changelings (a bit as a template of half doppelgangers before the proper race was created), Minotaurs, Thrikreen, half giants, and even half Dwarves (basically Muls, but with hair). The Gracgultch elves are basically the same as Wild Elves. Warforged haven't appeared in FR, but there are at least half a dozen or more civilizations in FR that could build them. Lantan, Imaskar, Mulhorand, Netheril, a ton of ancient Elven Kingdoms during the Crown Wars, Ancient Jhaamdath, Shou Lung, Zakhara. But many of these races have a Primary setting they are linked to traditionally.



They do keep hinting at a multiversal grand unified field theory of D&D, including Planar and alternate Prime material. Given the UA content, I think they're in the home stretch of finalizing their combined metasetting as a product, and I suppose Catacomb is likely to be that product.


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## vecna00 (Nov 25, 2017)

What if we have something that fully delves into the ruins of Netheril?

Or...set duing the height of Netheril?

Catacomb could (probably not) refer to my first thought.


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## AmerginLiath (Nov 26, 2017)

Why is there the assumption that there’s going to be a specifically planar product? Given the lack of other settings books (SCAG being the closest so far, and that being only partly a gazetteer). Rather, I wonder if we’ll see information on planar adventuring in a book aimed at high-level campaigning alongside topics like strongholds and mass combat. I could see a code like Marathon for this (regarding the long run of a high-level campaign). Having a supplement only tailored to planar travel or planar settings seems contrary to WotC’s direction under 5th edition.


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## Herosmith14 (Nov 26, 2017)

AmerginLiath said:


> Why is there the assumption that there’s going to be a specifically planar product? Given the lack of other settings books (SCAG being the closest so far, and that being only partly a gazetteer). Rather, I wonder if we’ll see information on planar adventuring in a book aimed at high-level campaigning alongside topics like strongholds and mass combat. I could see a code like Marathon for this (regarding the long run of a high-level campaign). Having a supplement only tailored to planar travel or planar settings seems contrary to WotC’s direction under 5th edition.




That would be fun, but they seem to have been hinting at a multi setting thing in past products and US. Gith, Dragonbait, TftYP having a lot of dungeons from other settings, horizon walker, UA DI race


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## Herosmith14 (Nov 26, 2017)

AmerginLiath said:


> Why is there the assumption that there’s going to be a specifically planar product? Given the lack of other settings books (SCAG being the closest so far, and that being only partly a gazetteer). Rather, I wonder if we’ll see information on planar adventuring in a book aimed at high-level campaigning alongside topics like strongholds and mass combat. I could see a code like Marathon for this (regarding the long run of a high-level campaign). Having a supplement only tailored to planar travel or planar settings seems contrary to WotC’s direction under 5th edition.




That would be fun, but they seem to have been hinting at a multi setting thing in past products and US. Gith, Dragonbait, TftYP having a lot of dungeons from other settings, horizon walker, UA subraces from other settings, they seem to at least be planning something to do Ewing the current cosmic scheme considering some stuff. But hey, I would not complain is your idea turned out to be right (specially considering I'm trying to figure out a how to make a military campaign adventure).


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## Parmandur (Nov 26, 2017)

AmerginLiath said:


> Why is there the assumption that there’s going to be a specifically planar product? Given the lack of other settings books (SCAG being the closest so far, and that being only partly a gazetteer). Rather, I wonder if we’ll see information on planar adventuring in a book aimed at high-level campaigning alongside topics like strongholds and mass combat. I could see a code like Marathon for this (regarding the long run of a high-level campaign). Having a supplement only tailored to planar travel or planar settings seems contrary to WotC’s direction under 5th edition.



Largely because they are testing Planar material in their public play test articles, and have talked about wanting to do something like that.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 26, 2017)

As much as people have wishful thinking on what these, and other, future products may be, many of these wishes are still too niche to make WotC enough money from publishing them. Look, we are getting three books, maybe four starting next year, per year. They are only going to do the ones they think will grow the brand the most and bring in the most sales, and probably 9 out of every 10 wished for books by people on this forum do not fit that profile. That includes things I would like to see that will never happen. Think mass appeal and very mainstream and accessible to all the brand new players that keep coming into the game and you will be closer to guessing right.


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## Parmandur (Nov 26, 2017)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> As much as people have wishful thinking on what these, and other, future products may be, many of these wishes are still too niche to make WotC enough money from publishing them. Look, we are getting three books, maybe four starting next year, per year. They are only going to do the ones they think will grow the brand the most and bring in the most sales, and probably 9 out of every 10 wished for books by people on this forum do not fit that profile. That includes things I would like to see that will never happen. Think mass appeal and very mainstream and accessible to all the brand new players that keep coming into the game and you will be closer to guessing right.



Well, sure: that's why I think they will eventually do a big ol' dragon book, for sales.

Cosmic threats are always popular: people like Big Bads for their heroes to fight.


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## Dougan Axehammer (Nov 29, 2017)

Marathon:  A races supplement (because a marathon is a race.)  Will probably include many of the races, racial variants and feats we've seen in the last several UA articles.

Broadway and Catacomb: WotC has been pretty consistent lately at releasing adventures with significant nods to classic adventures (Ravenloft for Curse of Strahd, Tomb of Horrors for Tomb of Annihilation, Against the Giants for Storm King's Thunder, Temple of Elemental Evil for Princes of the Apocalypse, etc.)  My guess would be along those lines.  However, the Undermountain is far too vast for only one adventure; the most we could expect of them is to divide it into two adventure books.  But I find it more likely to be nods to something generic like the others; we haven't nodded to Shrine of Tomoachan yet (a Catacomb) and the other will nod to something that could have had a Broadway-type place (don't have any guess for that one (Waterdeep based perhaps.)


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## pukunui (Nov 29, 2017)

Dougan Axehammer said:


> we haven't nodded to Shrine of Tomoachan yet ...



No, but we have gotten the actual adventure updated to 5e.


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## Manchu2 (Dec 5, 2017)

*Movie updates*

As for Undermountain: As I've said elsewhere, since rumor has it the D&D movie is going to be based around Waterdeep/Undermountain, my guess is they're holding this adventure back so they can release it with the movie.[/QUOTE]

...but there has been no new news on the movie for a very long time, hopefully a new novel line, adventure book, etc will tie into a movie for Summer of 2019 (or Fall)...


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## mankyle (Dec 15, 2017)

Broadway will be the next BIG assed adventure for the next year. Season 7, Tomb of Annihilation will continue until september 2018, so the next big adventure path will be broadway.
I agree that it could be Waterdeep based but we will have to wait to see.

Catacomb looks more like a Tales of the yawning portal "remember" product. There are a lot of famous "catacomb based" classic adventurers that haven't been updated to 5e yet.
We will see....

Regarding "Marathon", I'm envisioning it as marathon of descriptions of classic D&D Campaign worlds updated to 5E. The chapter of Athas ("Dark Sun") would include the Mystic class. The Eberron chapter would include the Artificer. There have been mentions about Spelljammer, and other options could be Dragonlance or even Birthright.

Any other ideas?????


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## DEFCON 1 (Dec 18, 2017)

My prediction (updated):

Marathon will still be a planar gazeteer, talking about the Feywild, Shadowfell, Astral, Elemental Planes (and E Chaos), and the Outer Planes.  It will include a whole mass of races and racial variants, many of which are geared towards the various planes and/or the various campaign settings.  We've already gotten a bunch of Tieflings (which align to the nine layers of hell), the Eladrin (connected to the Feywild) various Elves (including one specifically called out as Greyhawkian, and the Shadar-Kai listed as Shadowfellian), and both Gith (identified in the D&D Beyond video with Mearls as Astral based).  I also wouldn't be surprised if we get some info on Shifters and Warforged, maybe a wild halfling variant from Dark Sun, maybe the Thri-kreen, maybe the Minotaur gets his official book debut etc.  There also may or may not be specific information about the other campaign settings (although I tend to doubt it).  It'll probably be identified as something like 'Primus' Guide To The Planes', where it's all about the Modron walkabout across the multiverse (with the added pun of races being the primary player-geared information.

With both Broadway and Catacomb being listed as "Adventures"... I think these might actually be a pair of APs that are both thematically similar, but cover different functions that WotC's been hinting at as wanting to do-- other settings *and* high-level adventures.

I still think Broadway could be referencing Sigil-- bright lights, big city.  It would be a planar-hopping adventure, most likely high-level.  Maybe starting at 10 and getting up to 17 to 20.  Obviously it would make use of a lot of the planar information we would have received both in Xanathar's (Horizon Walker, anyone?) and the Marathon book.  Then for Catacomb (aka 'Dungeon')... they realized they didn't have enough "campaign setting specific" player content from Greyhawk, Eberron, Dark Sun and Dragonlance to fill an entire book.  So while yes, we'll get the Mystic; yes we'll get the Artificer; yes, there might be wizard subclasses for the three Dragonlance wizard schools, and rules for Defiling/Preserving, and Dragonmarks... but to use all of this stuff *and* to give players lower-level adventures if they didn't want to do high-level plane-hopping... they give us a dungeon adventure set in each of the four settings (and they open all four settings to the DMsGuild.)  Whether these would be "reprints" of revious Greyhawk, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Dragonlance modules, or they'd be newly written by various people, I don't know.

But at the end of 2018... I'm fairly certain we're getting planar information, psionics, artificing, and a high-level adventure somewhere somehow.  Because that's everything that's been hinted at by Mearls, Perkins, Stewart, Tito and the rest.


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## Parmandur (Dec 18, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> My prediction (updated):
> 
> Marathon will still be a planar gazeteer, talking about the Feywild, Shadowfell, Astral, Elemental Planes (and E Chaos), and the Outer Planes.  It will include a whole mass of races and racial variants, many of which are geared towards the various planes and/or the various campaign settings.  We've already gotten a bunch of Tieflings (which align to the nine layers of hell), the Eladrin (connected to the Feywild) various Elves (including one specifically called out as Greyhawkian, and the Shadar-Kai listed as Shadowfellian), and both Gith (identified in the D&D Beyond video with Mearls as Astral based).  I also wouldn't be surprised if we get some info on Shifters and Warforged, maybe a wild halfling variant from Dark Sun, maybe the Thri-kreen, maybe the Minotaur gets his official book debut etc.  There also may or may not be specific information about the other campaign settings (although I tend to doubt it).  It'll probably be identified as something like 'Primus' Guide To The Planes', where it's all about the Modron walkabout across the multiverse (with the added pun of races being the primary player-geared information.
> 
> ...



Slight problem with this prediction: based on what Mearls & co. said at Gameholecon, "Marathon" was already basically finished. The Planar test material is probably due for "Catacomb," as I don't believe the"Adventure"/"Accessory" designation from this sourse (it has Out of the Abyss down as an "Accessory," for instance). If we are getting multiple Adventure books, "Marathon" would probably be it. But time will tell.


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## DEFCON 1 (Dec 18, 2017)

Parmandur said:


> Slight problem with this prediction: based on what Mearls & co. said at Gameholecon, "Marathon" was already basically finished.




Heh... well, I consider racial mechanics to be so inconsequential to design that they could already have everything written, the Alpha testers having already hammered the mechanics out... that all was left was deciding how many of these racial variants needed to actually appear in the book.  So they throw out a UA to let us say "Like this one" / "Don't like this one"... and then they decide which ones to edit out of the completed document.

After all... there were enough small goofs in Xanathar's (like the d8/d6 issue between the chart and the written text, and the unnecessary "magic weapon" phrasing in the Arcane Archer feature) which tell me they still do edits right up until the end... which is why there aren't enough final editing passes to catch these obvious problems.

So the next book could easily be completely written... and now all that's left is layout. And once you do that and you see where your pictures fall on the page, you start editing/removing your text to get it to fit where it needs to go.  If that means taking out one of the six elf racial variants... you throw them out to us so we can tell them which one we don't care about.


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## Quickleaf (Dec 18, 2017)

I agree that McNally Robinson misses the boat when it comes to typing the D&D products. For instance, _Curse of Strahd_ is described as "A Dungeons & Dragons Sourcebook."

One interesting thing about McNally Robinson is that when you search for products from "Wizards RPG Team", _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ shows up under its original code name "Labyrinth": see here

[SBLOCK=Screen snapshot]
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




[/SBLOCK]

While Broadway is definitely an adventure (given that they're releasing dice for it like _Tomb of Annihilation_), the pricing & page-count of "Catacomb" being the same as "Broadway" ($65.95 Canadian, 256 pgs) suggest it may also be an adventure. Maybe they are bucking the trend and putting out two adventure books just two months apart!

If "Catacomb" is essentially a _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ 2, then I'd wager a guess at what we'd find inside...

If you compare the adventures in TftYP to the 30 Greatest Adventures of All Time (acc. to Dungeon magazine), you see several overlaps...

•	G1-3: Against the Giants #1 (as part of "Queen of the Spiders")
•	Dead in Thay
•	Forge of Fury
•	C1: Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan #13
•	Sunless Citadel
•	S1: Tomb of Horrors #3
•	S2: White Plume Mountain #22

So it would make sense to see several other adventures from Dungeon's list appear in a hypothetical  _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ 2... But which ones? Let's rule some out first...

*Adventures already adapted*
I6: Ravenloft was already turned into _Curse of Strahd_
T1-4: Temple of Elemental Evil/Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil already were adapted to _Princes of the Apocalypse_
B2: Keep on the Borderlands is being converted by Goodman Games as part of their classic collector’s edition including B1, http://goodman-games.com/blog/2017/03/26/classic-dd-module-collectors-editions/ Seems likely that B4: The Lost City will be also part of their conversions.

*Adventures too large for a compilation*
Desert of Desolation (I3-5)… 128 pgs
Dead Gods…176 pgs
Gates of Firestorm Peak… 96 pgs
Scourge of the Slave Lords (A1-4)… 128 pgs
The Ruins of Undermountain… 128 pgs + 32 pgs

*Tournament Modules that probably don’t translate well to modern gaming*
Castle Amber (X2)
Ghost Tower of Inverness (C2)

*Setting-specific adventures*
Dragons of Despair (DL1)
The City of Skulls (WGR6)

*Adventures that aren’t about dungeons (assuming "Catacomb" is a hint)*
The Assassin’s Knot (L2)

So what does that leave? I think it would be reasonable to expect to see 3-4 of the following adventures in a hypothetical _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ 2...


 Queen of Spiders (GDQ1-7), specifically Descent into the Depths of the Earth (D1), Shrine of the Kuo-toa (D2), and Vault of the Drow (D3), as a logical continuation of the “Against the Giants” conversion that appeared in TftYP.
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (S3)
Dwellers of the Forbidden City  (I1)
The Isle of Dread (X1)
Against the Cult of the Reptile God (N1)
Dark Tower
The Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (S4)
The Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (WG4)
City of the Spider Queen
The Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh (U1)


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## Parmandur (Dec 18, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Heh... well, I consider racial mechanics to be so inconsequential to design that they could already have everything written, the Alpha testers having already hammered the mechanics out... that all was left was deciding how many of these racial variants needed to actually appear in the book.  So they throw out a UA to let us say "Like this one" / "Don't like this one"... and then they decide which ones to edit out of the completed document.
> 
> After all... there were enough small goofs in Xanathar's (like the d8/d6 issue between the chart and the written text, and the unnecessary "magic weapon" phrasing in the Arcane Archer feature) which tell me they still do edits right up until the end... which is why there aren't enough final editing passes to catch these obvious problems.
> 
> So the next book could easily be completely written... and now all that's left is layout. And once you do that and you see where your pictures fall on the page, you start editing/removing your text to get it to fit where it needs to go.  If that means taking out one of the six elf racial variants... you throw them out to us so we can tell them which one we don't care about.



Well, certainly they aren't using the UA for fine-tuning: that's why I doubt that we will the past few months material in "Marathon": these are "do you want this?" articles, which fit better with "Catacomb" timing wise. Whatever "Marathon" might be, they would have passed the "fo people want this?" phase a while back. If it isn't Adventure material, I reckon monster book is a likely guess: they know we want monsters.


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## Demetrios1453 (Dec 19, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> T1-4: Temple of Elemental Evil/Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil already were adapted to _Princes of the Apocalypse_




I agree with much of what you have said, other than this. If _Against the Giants_ can appear in a compilation even after the release of _Storm King's Thunder_, then I can't see why ToEE can't appear after PoA. Both pairs are significantly different to merit the original being republished...


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## Quickleaf (Dec 19, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I agree with much of what you have said, other than this. If _Against the Giants_ can appear in a compilation even after the release of _Storm King's Thunder_, then I can't see why ToEE can't appear after PoA. Both pairs are significantly different to merit the original being republished...




Well, there's a big page count difference there - a very relevant consideration for a compilation like TftYP. 

_Against the Giants_ was 32 pages. The whole _Temple of Elemental Evil_ was 128 pages.

I could see just _T1 The Village of Hommlet_ (24 pages) being included in a theoretic TftYP #2, however.


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## Kretz (Dec 19, 2017)

Honestly, I can't see WotC doing something bold or original for a change. They seem to be treading a safe and carefully laid down path, nostalgia-heavy but still easily accessible for new players (not an easy task if you think about it), so I very much doubt we'll get any setting-specific books or brand new material. Rather, I am betting on more classic adventures revisited, loosely set (or retconned) on FR, but with some setting-specific "flavor" added to it, which could be easily shoehorned in any scenario you may like. Tomb of Annihilation was retconned in FR and gave us that tortoise-thing playable race, so I think they could easily revamp some old classic and throw in Warforged and the Artificer class for a "pulp-style" product, or psionics and thri-kreen for a desert adventure. WotC seem to be playing safe - too safe for my tastes, but it probably makes sense business-wise.

Cheers


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## Parmandur (Dec 19, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> Well, there's a big page count difference there - a very relevant consideration for a compilation like TftYP.
> 
> _Against the Giants_ was 32 pages. The whole _Temple of Elemental Evil_ was 128 pages.
> 
> I could see just _T1 The Village of Hommlet_ (24 pages) being included in a theoretic TftYP #2, however.



Do note the Dark Tower was Judges Guild, though maybe Goodman will do a 5E conversion of old JG material.

You could throw in ToEE in with Tsjocanth & Tharizdun (Hommet, the Temple and Tsjocanhj pulled double duty as WG1-3, apparently), maybe add Castle Maure, and you'd have a solid campaign that is also perfectly modular.

I could also see the following being a good mix of either a straight campaign or series of modular bits:

Against the Cult of the Reptile God
Dwellers of the Forbidden City
Ghost Tower of Iverness (heck, they've said they will be putting our more old school tourney style material based on AL feedback)
Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
D1-3
Queen of the Demonweb Pits

They might want to do 2E or 3E material, too. Time will tell if they do another like TftYP.


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## Parmandur (Dec 19, 2017)

Quickleaf said:


> Well, there's a big page count difference there - a very relevant consideration for a compilation like TftYP.
> 
> _Against the Giants_ was 32 pages. The whole _Temple of Elemental Evil_ was 128 pages.
> 
> I could see just _T1 The Village of Hommlet_ (24 pages) being included in a theoretic TftYP #2, however.



To add some more fuel to this speculation, Mearls was asked about TftYP on his Reddit AMA running right now, and said that TftYP was very successful, and he wouldn't be surprised to see something similar done again...


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## Sword of Spirit (Dec 19, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> But at the end of 2018... I'm fairly certain we're getting planar information, psionics, artificing, and a high-level adventure somewhere somehow.  Because that's everything that's been hinted at by Mearls, Perkins, Stewart, Tito and the rest.



The impression I’ve gotten is that psionics are a way off yet. What causes you to feel otherwise.


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## darjr (Dec 20, 2017)

To add more fuel to the speculation the latest Lore You Should Know on the dnd podcast is about Sigil.


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## Parmandur (Dec 20, 2017)

darjr said:


> To add more fuel to the speculation the latest Lore You Should Know on the dnd podcast is about Sigil.



It is interesting, they aren't being very subtle at the big picture level of what kind of material is coming our way, but the exact shape of the products is very mysterious...

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## LordEntrails (Dec 20, 2017)

And you all do know that all of these products are already written/designed? The adventures and crunch products are probably in final external playtesting and artwork finalization and layout.

I would think that from concept to release is probably 14-16 months for any of these things.


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## DEFCON 1 (Dec 20, 2017)

Sword of Spirit said:


> The impression I’ve gotten is that psionics are a way off yet. What causes you to feel otherwise.




They started working on psionics almost two years ago.  They wouldn't have done that if they knew they weren't going to release it until 2019, there's no way they'd have people spend 3 years playtesting something for no reason.  Notice how they never did a revamp of the very early Eberron UA-- its because they realized they weren't going to release any of that stuff in the next two years, so there was no reason to work on it.

They're working on the Mystic now, because they have a planned release of planar material in Autumn 2018 and they need it ready by then.  If their intention wasn't to release it until 2019, they would have put it on hold to really delve into the stuff that will be appearing in that Autumn book.

Also... let's not forget that we the general public are not really here for the game mechanic testing-- that's what they have the alpha testers for.  We're here mainly to give our opinions on what _feels_ right about the stuff they make.  So they could very well have their Mystic, Artificer, and Ranger re-workings already out in the alpha testing wild, and once they get their formats in a better place they'll then give it to us for our opinions on which disciplines and talents feel good and which don't in probably February or March.  Which gives them plenty of time to take our responses and do some small tweaks or remove ones that don't get high marks.

Don't forget... the subclass UAs we received during the playtests heading into Xanathar's had very little that was changed when the book was released.  Maybe a tweak here and there.  But for the most part, the subclass UAs were in their final forms when we got them and we just told them "I like that one, don't like that one" and they then used that to decide which ones to include.  But the work to already get them to those places had already been done prior to their release as UAs.  Thus I think the Mystic is in the same place.


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## Parmandur (Dec 20, 2017)

LordEntrails said:


> And you all do know that all of these products are already written/designed? The adventures and crunch products are probably in final external playtesting and artwork finalization and layout.
> 
> I would think that from concept to release is probably 14-16 months for any of these things.



Well, as of Gameholecon, one book (probably Marathon) was done and facing final editorial work, one (probably Broadway) was well down the road to completion, and one (probably Catacomb) was in development. Perkins just Tweeeted quite recently about finishing the  first full draft of the next AP (certainly  Broadway).Consider also the turnaround of Xanathar concept testing to final product. I would wager, then, that the playtest material for the past few months (planar and multisetting races) was probably for Catacomb.

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## pukunui (Dec 20, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> They're working on the Mystic now, because they have a planned release of planar material in Autumn 2018 and they need it ready by then.  If their intention wasn't to release it until 2019, they would have put it on hold to really delve into the stuff that will be appearing in that Autumn book.



If you've been following my Mike Mearls Reddit AMA thread, you'll know that they've put the mystic on the backburner for now. Both the artificer and the ranger revisions have moved ahead of it.


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## Parmandur (Dec 20, 2017)

pukunui said:


> If you've been following my Mike Mearls Reddit AMA thread, you'll know that they've put the mystic on the backburner for now. Both the artificer and the ranger revisions have moved ahead of it.



Based on Mearls comments there, it sounds like a next playtest for Artificer isn't likely before midyear, with Mystic in the future sometime after that. I think 2019 may be the earliest we see either put into a product at that rate. Which is fine, test and iterate until they are right.

But both Crawford and Mearls have been pretty vocal about the Mystic not being ready for primetime and needing some major redesign, just int he last couple weeks even.

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## DEFCON 1 (Dec 20, 2017)

pukunui said:


> If you've been following my Mike Mearls Reddit AMA thread, you'll know that they've put the mystic on the backburner for now. Both the artificer and the ranger revisions have moved ahead of it.




Sure, but that could mean UAs in February, March & April.  So what?  Just because it could be the third of three UAs doesn't mean its therefore not going to be in the Autumn book.

Hey, I could be wrong.  Perhaps they decided rather than to do a single gazeteer which included the basics of multiple settings, they're going to just do a single one.  So for instance the November book is like a Khorvaire Adventurer's Guide with player and DM info for Eberron only.  If that's the case, then fine, it'll have the Artificer, some races, and dragonmarks only.

Personally I'd be _surprised_ if they did that, because I don't see there being *nearly* enough Eberron stuff to warrant a 256(?) page book-- unless they're just going to essentially re-print exact same info on the Five Nations for the THIRD time.  But if they did that... we'll hear a caterwauling even worse than we've had for SCAG or XGtE.  I mean at least SCAG had a "timeline update" to kind of justify a new book with new Sword Coast info.  But Eberron's timeline doesn't change.  And thus there's going to be absolutely no info different in a 5E book that we don't already have in the 3E and 4E books.

In my mind... at least if you were to put specific chapters of basic gazeteer info about Greyhawk, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Dragonlance (along with all the player character stuff) you could justify re-printing non-updated info about them cause you'd have several other new settings you probably didn't have even if you had most of one or two.  But to make a book that was ONLY about Eberron?  You can kiss a whole heap of buyers goodbye-- not only because there's an extremely small market for Eberron by itself... but also if most of the book was a basic re-print you'd be buying it merely for the updated character info-- info that anyone who really cares about playing in Eberron has probably already used and updated the UA themselves to use.

But what do I know?  Maybe that's what they're doing.  Personally I think that'd be STUPID... especially considering that pushes back Dark Sun to what-- 2019?  And Greyhawk (if they even ever bothered getting to it) to 2020 and then mayyyyyyyyybe Dragonlance or Mystara in 2021?  Pff... no thanks.


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## pukunui (Dec 20, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Sure, but that could mean UAs in February, March & April.  So what?  Just because it could be the third of three UAs doesn't mean its therefore not going to be in the Autumn book.



I think it'll be much slower than that. 

Here are some pertinent quotes from Mike:



> Moving the mystic back a bit - it lacks a clear conceptual boundary. The design right now kind of does everything. We're looking at it in terms of settings. What does a psionic-user in Dark Sun do, etc.
> 
> Artificer is moving up ahead of it, would like to have something by the middle of the year.






> Hoping to get something [for the artificer] out by mid-year, using Eberron as more of an inspiration for the next draft. Tested well, so more refinement than wholesale reinvention.






> Hoping for ranger and artificer in first half of the year, mystic depends on a deeper revision to give it a clearer identity, driven by settings like Dark Sun and what it would need.






> Ranger is something I want to finish by March, but we'll see.





With that in mind, I honestly can't see us getting anything more than another playtest version of the mystic late next year.


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## Parmandur (Dec 20, 2017)

pukunui said:


> I think it'll be much slower than that.
> 
> Here are some pertinent quotes from Mike:
> 
> ...



From Mearls comments here, and Crawford's a couple weeks ago on Sage Advice, I feel very, very confident in predicting that neither new class will get a finalized in product form in the next year.

In fact, I would go so far as to predict no new published class material in 2018, unless they release Star Frontiers or an official Magic RPG.

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## Ibrandul (Dec 22, 2017)

My predictions:

Marathon = planar/settings supplement

Broadway & Catacombs = massive 2-part adventure sequence set in Waterdeep and Undermountain


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## Parmandur (Dec 23, 2017)

jeremypowell said:


> My predictions:
> 
> Marathon = planar/settings supplement
> 
> Broadway & Catacombs = massive 2-part adventure sequence set in Waterdeep and Undermountain



Except they have said, recently, that they wouldn't do any two-part adventures any time soon. I doubt they are bith Adventure books, but it f they are, I reckon they will be unrelated.

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## mankyle (Jan 8, 2018)

The first link doesn't work anymore for me. It seems that they have removed the product.

http://www.mcnallyrobinson.com/9780786966240/rpg-team-wizards/d-d-marathon-hc?blnBKM=1

Maybe they are going to update that product's entry soon??
I have taken a look at past years product announcements and the dates were between January 5th and January 20th.
I think we will have the official announcement of the Marathon product this week, next week at the most.


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## Herosmith14 (Jan 8, 2018)

mankyle said:


> The first link doesn't work anymore for me. It seems that they have removed the product.
> 
> http://www.mcnallyrobinson.com/9780786966240/rpg-team-wizards/d-d-marathon-hc?blnBKM=1
> 
> ...




Yay!


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## mankyle (Jan 8, 2018)

Mmmmm. I have found another online dealer that has this product in presale. This time the online dealer is an aussie shop.

https://www.mightyape.com.au/product/dd-marathon-hc/27526669


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## Parmandur (Jan 8, 2018)

mankyle said:


> The first link doesn't work anymore for me. It seems that they have removed the product.
> 
> http://www.mcnallyrobinson.com/9780786966240/rpg-team-wizards/d-d-marathon-hc?blnBKM=1
> 
> ...



Reckon you might be on to something..

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## briggart (Jan 8, 2018)

mankyle said:


> The first link doesn't work anymore for me. It seems that they have removed the product.
> 
> http://www.mcnallyrobinson.com/9780786966240/rpg-team-wizards/d-d-marathon-hc?blnBKM=1
> 
> ...




On the other hand, all previous Spring releases were in March-early April, while Marathon is scheduled for end of May-Mid June, so it seems a bit early for an announcement, assuming they want to keep their usual 2-3 months between announcement and release.


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## Parmandur (Jan 13, 2018)

briggart said:


> On the other hand, all previous Spring releases were in March-early April, while Marathon is scheduled for end of May-Mid June, so it seems a bit early for an announcement, assuming they want to keep their usual 2-3 months between announcement and release.



So, apparently Nathan Stewart let it be known in his latest fireside chat that "Marathon" will be announced n February 6th.

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## darjr (Jan 13, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> So, apparently Nathan Stewart let it be known in his latest fireside chat that "Marathon" will be announced n February 6th.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




woot woot woot here we go.


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## gyor (Jan 13, 2018)

I'm surprised that it's a supplement following a supplement instead of an adventure.


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## Parmandur (Jan 13, 2018)

gyor said:


> I'm surprised that it's a supplement following a supplement instead of an adventure.



They've made it pretty clear that the norm from now on will be one AP per year, rather than two. So, instead of supplements sandwiched between adventures, looks like we will get adventures sandwiched between supplements.

I reckon it will be very different material from XGtE, my wager is a Volo-esque monster book.

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## vecna00 (Jan 13, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> They've made it pretty clear that the norm from now on will be one AP per year, rather than two. So, instead of supplements sandwiched between adventures, looks like we will get adventures sandwiched between supplements.
> 
> I reckon it will be very different material from XGtE, my wager is a Volo-esque monster book.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




If we're getting two supplements each year, now is the time for campaign setting type material!

Maybe.


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## Henry (Jan 13, 2018)

Speaking for my Moon Druid, if there’s a new monster book I hope it has more beasts, CR 3-6 who AREN’T dinosaurs...


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## Parmandur (Jan 13, 2018)

vecna00 said:


> If we're getting two supplements each year, now is the time for campaign setting type material!
> 
> Maybe.



Well, Mearls has been laying hints about how this year's products will fully unleash the multiverse schemata they have been working on. I'll bet dollars to donuts that the November product is "Mordenkainen's Manual of the Planes" or something, detailing the cosmology and the major material prime areas.

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## vecna00 (Jan 13, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, Mearls has been laying hints about how this year's products will fully unleash the multiverse schemata they have been working on. I'll bet dollars to donuts that the November product is "Mordenkainen's Manual of the Planes" or something, detailing the cosmology and the major material prime areas.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




That's what I'm hoping for, especially sooner rather than later!


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## Parmandur (Jan 13, 2018)

vecna00 said:


> That's what I'm hoping for, especially sooner rather than later!



I think we will see one of these supplements be "Mordenkainen's Something of Something" sooner or later: in the Beyond video about the Gith, Mearls talked about Mordenkainen specifically worrying about the cosmic status quo.

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## Tiles (Jan 13, 2018)

Third party settings will explode this year with a wotc supported multi verse . Just a prediction


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## vecna00 (Jan 13, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I think we will see one of these supplements be "Mordenkainen's Something of Something" sooner or later: in the Beyond video about the Gith, Mearls talked about Mordenkainen specifically worrying about the cosmic status quo.
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




I agree, with all of the mentions of the D&D Multiverse it's brewing.  Only question is: When?


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## Herosmith14 (Jan 15, 2018)

vecna00 said:


> I agree, with all of the mentions of the D&D Multiverse it's brewing.  Only question is: When?




This year, hopefully. Actually now that I think about it, if Marathon is Mordenkainen's Guide to the Multiverse (everyone likes illiteration), it would make sense that two adventures would be fall release, they could both be set in planes that are set in settings detailed in Marathon.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jan 15, 2018)

One of the artists for ToA and Xanathar's posted on this thread over on Reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/7q7d80/art_i_did_for_tomb_of_annihilation_and_xanathars/

"I just get codenames, so I dunno! One of them is definitely still Forgotten Realms, though, and the other has a bunch of monsters."

Make of that what you will - the former doesn't tell us anything unexpected, but the latter seems to me to indicate to me either another Volo's-type book, or perhaps a planar book that has a substantial bestiary...


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## Parmandur (Jan 15, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> One of the artists for ToA and Xanathar's posted on this thread over on Reddit:
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/7q7d80/art_i_did_for_tomb_of_annihilation_and_xanathars/
> 
> ...



I reckon that means Broadway will be FR, or at least starting FR: Lantan?

And that makes it more likely that Marathon will be a monster book: it would explain why it doesn't seem to have been tested in UA, near as I can tell by dates. Monsters need fine tuning, but not broad strokes trial ballooning (no UA for Volo's material, either).

Still think Catacombs will be some sort of Planar/Multiversal setting explanation.

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## Mecheon (Jan 15, 2018)

Henry said:


> Speaking for my Moon Druid, if there’s a new monster book I hope it has more beasts, CR 3-6 who AREN’T dinosaurs...




So, Therapsids? Or Temnospondyls? Ooo, some more pterosaurs and archosauriforms


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## GarrettKP (Jan 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> I reckon that means Broadway will be FR, or at least starting FR: Lantan?
> 
> And that makes it more likely that Marathon will be a monster book: it would explain why it doesn't seem to have been tested in UA, near as I can tell by dates. Monsters need fine tuning, but not broad strokes trial ballooning (no UA for Volo's material, either).
> 
> ...




This definitely sounds like Marathon will be "[Someones] Guide to the Multiverse" and will be just like Volo's. Chapter 1 will detail all the planes, Chapter 2 will detail Planar PC Races that were testing in the UA (Eladrin, Gith, Elf variants, Tiefling variants), and Chapter 3 will be a Planar bestiary. Calling it all now!


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## Parmandur (Jan 22, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> This definitely sounds like Marathon will be "[Someones] Guide to the Multiverse" and will be just like Volo's. Chapter 1 will detail all the planes, Chapter 2 will detail Planar PC Races that were testing in the UA (Eladrin, Gith, Elf variants, Tiefling variants), and Chapter 3 will be a Planar bestiary. Calling it all now!



Thing is, those racial variants we're being tested when "Marathon" was nearly finished: I suspect they are for the fall project. But we'll broadly know in two weeks!

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## vecna00 (Jan 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Thing is, those racial variants we're being tested when "Marathon" was nearly finished: I suspect they are for the fall project. But we'll broadly know in two weeks!
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




Two weeks from tomorrow, or this past Friday, depending on Nathan Stewart!

Hype train is still going!


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## GarrettKP (Jan 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Thing is, those racial variants we're being tested when "Marathon" was nearly finished: I suspect they are for the fall project. But we'll broadly know in two weeks!
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




The last UA that made it into Xanathars was released in June (Revised Class Options). So between June and November, you are looking at 5 months difference. The last Racial UA was November of last year and Marathon comes out in May. That is 7 months difference, so not really that far fetched that they could be included in this book. Book layouts are not finalized until about 2 months in advance from what I understand.


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## gyor (Jan 22, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> This definitely sounds like Marathon will be "[Someones] Guide to the Multiverse" and will be just like Volo's. Chapter 1 will detail all the planes, Chapter 2 will detail Planar PC Races that were testing in the UA (Eladrin, Gith, Elf variants, Tiefling variants), and Chapter 3 will be a Planar bestiary. Calling it all now!







GarrettKP said:


> The last UA that made it into Xanathars was released in June (Revised Class Options). So between June and November, you are looking at 5 months difference. The last Racial UA was November of last year and Marathon comes out in May. That is 7 months difference, so not really that far fetched that they could be included in this book. Book layouts are not finalized until about 2 months in advance from what I understand.





 This makes a lot of sense.


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## GarrettKP (Jan 22, 2018)

While I am at it I am also gonna go ahead and guess Broadway is a Waterdeep Intrigue adventure and Catacomb is Undermountain since both are Adventures and a Month apart.


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## Parmandur (Jan 22, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> The last UA that made it into Xanathars was released in June (Revised Class Options). So between June and November, you are looking at 5 months difference. The last Racial UA was November of last year and Marathon comes out in May. That is 7 months difference, so not really that far fetched that they could be included in this book. Book layouts are not finalized until about 2 months in advance from what I understand.



However, they also went on record that whatever "Marathon" was already in layout in November. So, doubtful anything from November's UA for testing was put in after layout. And given the blatantly thematic nature of that series of UA's, still think that is more likely for the November product (which I don't think for a second is an Adventure book).

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## GarrettKP (Jan 22, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> However, they also went on record that whatever "Marathon" was already in layout in November. So, doubtful anything from November's UA for testing was put in after layout. And given the blatantly thematic nature of that series of UA's, still think that is more likely for the November product (which I don't think for a second is an Adventure book).
> 
> Sent from my [device_name] using EN World mobile app




Where did they say Marathon was in Layout in November? Seems extremely early to me.


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## vecna00 (Jan 22, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Where did they say Marathon was in Layout in November? Seems extremely early to me.




It was mentioned at Gamehole Con that all of their 2018 products were either done being written or in the process of.  They obviously never mentioned the code names, so it's an educated guess.

Side note: What if they were planning another PDF companion?  That content could be finalized later than a print book.


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## Parmandur (Jan 23, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Where did they say Marathon was in Layout in November? Seems extremely early to me.



From [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION]'s transcript of the panel:

"Every product being released in 2018 has either been written, or is being written. One is at the tail end of the editing/layout process. Another is in the playtest phase. A third is in the finalizing development phase. And a fourth Mearls won't talk about at all. So, looks like four major products for 2018."

So, these are most likely Marathon, Broadway, Catacombs and maybe a surprise, respectively. The timing of these statements and the UA releases suggests that Marathon was just about done, and Catacombs was being tested out at that time.

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## Hutchimus Prime (Jan 23, 2018)

Keeping with the Planar theme, I wonder if Catacomb is going to tie into Sigil’s mazes rather than Undermountain? They were talking about them in a recent “Lore You Should Know” on the D&D podcast.


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## GarrettKP (Jan 23, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> From @_*Mistwell*_'s transcript of the panel:
> 
> "Every product being released in 2018 has either been written or is being written. One is at the tail end of the editing/layout process. Another is in the playtest phase. A third is in the finalizing development phase. And a fourth Mearls won't talk about at all. So, looks like four major products for 2018."
> 
> ...




Ok, so they never said the layout was complete, and Gameshole Con was November, the same month as the final UA I believe will be included. Since they said "tail end" that leaves more than enough time for them to get feedback on the November Ua and insert it into the book. Not at all out of the question. 

BTW in response to my prediction that Broadway is Waterdeep and Catacomb is Undermountain: Nathan Stewart said on his fireside chat this month that Cosplayers should get a Durnan cosplay ready because it "may come in handy in the future." Durnan being the bartender at the Yawning Portal, further enforcing my believe that Catacomb is Undermountain.


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## Hutchimus Prime (Jan 23, 2018)

Or one of them could be “Tales from the Yawning Portal 2: Electric Boogaloo”.


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## Parmandur (Jan 23, 2018)

Hutchimus Prime said:


> Keeping with the Planar theme, I wonder if Catacomb is going to tie into Sigil’s mazes rather than Undermountain? They were talking about them in a recent “Lore You Should Know” on the D&D podcast.



I think Catacomb will be a Manual of the Planes, makes sense as a codeword.

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## Parmandur (Jan 23, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> Ok, so they never said the layout was complete, and Gameshole Con was November, the same month as the final UA I believe will be included. Since they said "tail end" that leaves more than enough time for them to get feedback on the November Ua and insert it into the book. Not at all out of the question.
> 
> BTW in response to my prediction that Broadway is Waterdeep and Catacomb is Undermountain: Nathan Stewart said on his fireside chat this month that Cosplayers should get a Durnan cosplay ready because it "may come in handy in the future." Durnan being the bartender at the Yawning Portal, further enforcing my believe that Catacomb is Undermountain.



Well, they had finished the book and moved on to others: still think the UA series is for Catacomb, not Marathon. But all will be revealed soon enough.

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## Skywalker (Mar 18, 2018)

Broadway could be an Astral Sea campaign and sourcebook (all the stars on Broadway) and Catacombs could be an Underdark campaign and sourcebook. These would both utilise the material in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes.


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## gyor (Mar 19, 2018)

I think Broadway way will be a Lantan/Spelljammer adventure, but your stars point actually fits Spelljammer better then planescape.


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## Yaarel (Mar 19, 2018)

I suspect, ‘Broadway’ is multiverse, probably Spelljammer-esque.

Eberron isnt in play yet. Designers express interest but no plans yet.



I am less thrilled about heavy-handed setting assumptions, so personally I would rather ignore the one-size-fits-all multiverse, including Spelljammer-esque.

But I suspect, Broadway is what it is.



For some reason, I doubt it is actually Spelljammer, but instead will include the lego pieces necessary for Spelljammer fans to put a Spelljammer setting together.


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## Azzy (Mar 19, 2018)

I really think there's a lot of over-thinking this. I bet Broadway will be a product that starts with the letter "B"—much in the same way Marathon is _*M*ordenkainnen's Tome of Foes_.


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## Jer (Mar 20, 2018)

Azzy said:


> I really think there's a lot of over-thinking this. I bet Broadway will be a product that starts with the letter "B"—much in the same way Marathon is _*M*ordenkainnen's Tome of Foes_.




So by that logic I can now state that Broadway is absolutely going to be Bigby's Book of Bombastic Battles.  It's so obvious now that you point it out 

(After Volo's, Xanathar's and Mordenkainnen's various books, if they leave "Bigby's Book" just sitting there, I'll be disappointed.)


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## gyor (Mar 21, 2018)

So we know what Marathon is and what Broadway is, but that leaves what is Catacomb.


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## Gradine (Mar 21, 2018)

gyor said:


> So we know what Marathon is and what Broadway is, but that leaves what is Catacomb.




Cats. Just Cats.

198 pages of Cats.

It will break all sales records.


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## Kobold Avenger (Mar 21, 2018)

Jer said:


> So by that logic I can now state that Broadway is absolutely going to be Bigby's Book of Bombastic Battles.  It's so obvious now that you point it out
> 
> (After Volo's, Xanathar's and Mordenkainnen's various books, if they leave "Bigby's Book" just sitting there, I'll be disappointed.)




Bigby is the hand guy, I'm surprised there isn't a cantrip that does force damage from a hand of force slapping the targets face, a Bigby's Bitch-slap.


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## briggart (Mar 21, 2018)

Azzy said:


> I really think there's a lot of over-thinking this. I bet Broadway will be a product that starts with the letter "B"—much in the same way Marathon is _*M*ordenkainnen's Tome of Foes_.




"Big Hardcover Adventure: 2018 edition"


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## Hutchimus Prime (Mar 22, 2018)

gyor said:


> So we know what Marathon is and what Broadway is, but that leaves what is Catacomb.



We know what Broadway is?


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## ccs (Mar 22, 2018)

Hutchimus Prime said:


> We know what Broadway is?




Of course we do.  It's the next book coming out after Mordenkainnen's.  Does it _really_ matter what it's about?


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## MechaTarrasque (Mar 22, 2018)

Hutchimus Prime said:


> We know what Broadway is?




Mearls said they make announcements about 3 months ahead of release, so we won't know anything officially until June.  There is speculation of course, but then everyone "knew" Marathon was going to be a planar book, but MToF isn't totally planar (I doubt the dwarf or gnome sections will be planar at all).


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## gyor (Mar 22, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> Mearls said they make announcements about 3 months ahead of release, so we won't know anything officially until June.  There is speculation of course, but then everyone "knew" Marathon was going to be a planar book, but MToF isn't totally planar (I doubt the dwarf or gnome sections will be planar at all).




 Gnomes and Halfling still have Gods.  MTOF isn't a 100% Planar,  but it's still very planar,  so I don't consider it wrong.


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## MechaTarrasque (Mar 22, 2018)

gyor said:


> Gnomes and Halfling still have Gods.  MTOF isn't a 100% Planar,  but it's still very planar,  so I don't consider it wrong.




I think a lot of people (including me) thought it was going to be a more general planar book, not necessarily about conflicts (although the three biggest conflicts [Blood War, elves, and gith/mind flayers] are pretty planar), and there was some disappointment based more on anticipation than facts about the upcoming book.  I have come around to the notion that conflict is an interesting way to frame a splat book (and "think about the impacts of the major conflict [or lack thereof] in your campaign" is something that many DM's can probably use).  Of course, I wouldn't turn down Modron #213897's Manual of the Multiverse at some future date....

At any rate, I wouldn't put too much faith in what we "know" until the official release comes out.  Speculation is fun, but it is probably for the best not to get too invested in a particular speculation.


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## gyor (Mar 22, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> I think a lot of people (including me) thought it was going to be a more general planar book, not necessarily about conflicts (although the three biggest conflicts [Blood War, elves, and gith/mind flayers] are pretty planar), and there was some disappointment based more on anticipation than facts about the upcoming book.  I have come around to the notion that conflict is an interesting way to frame a splat book (and "think about the impacts of the major conflict [or lack thereof] in your campaign" is something that many DM's can probably use).  Of course, I wouldn't turn down Modron #213897's Manual of the Multiverse at some future date....
> 
> At any rate, I wouldn't put too much faith in what we "know" until the official release comes out.  Speculation is fun, but it is probably for the best not to get too invested in a particular speculation.




 I knew it was going to be some kind of twist on the Planar Theme and that it was going to include material for multiple settings.


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## LordEntrails (Mar 23, 2018)

Every book is pretty planar. I mean they are pretty flat. Kind of close to the definition of a plane after all. And in geometry class don't they always hold up a sheet of paper to give an example of a plane? MTOF is just a bunch of sheets of paper...


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## Herosmith14 (Mar 23, 2018)

LordEntrails said:


> Every book is pretty planar. I mean they are pretty flat. Kind of close to the definition of a plane after all. And in geometry class don't they always hold up a sheet of paper to give an example of a plane? MTOF is just a bunch of sheets of paper...




I like the smart Alek comment, but I hated geometry class. Either way, the only reason I would want a multi setting/planar book is for fluff and descriptions. I can fill in the rest udingbtgat inspiration in my own setting.


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## Parmandur (Mar 25, 2018)

MechaTarrasque said:


> I think a lot of people (including me) thought it was going to be a more general planar book, not necessarily about conflicts (although the three biggest conflicts [Blood War, elves, and gith/mind flayers] are pretty planar), and there was some disappointment based more on anticipation than facts about the upcoming book.  I have come around to the notion that conflict is an interesting way to frame a splat book (and "think about the impacts of the major conflict [or lack thereof] in your campaign" is something that many DM's can probably use).  Of course, I wouldn't turn down Modron #213897's Manual of the Multiverse at some future date....
> 
> At any rate, I wouldn't put too much faith in what we "know" until the official release comes out.  Speculation is fun, but it is probably for the best not to get too invested in a particular speculation.



Given that there will be a themed special dice set, and that Broadway coincides with the new AL season, we can be extremely confident that it will be the big AP of the year.

Catacomb is the interesting wild card; another Tales from the Yawning Portal is possible, or a second source book in one year. We shall see soon enough.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 26, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Given that there will be a themed special dice set, and that Broadway coincides with the new AL season, we can be extremely confident that it will be the big AP of the year.




If it's a planar adventure, they really should make that dice set have an Acheron theme. I mean, it only makes sense!


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## MechaTarrasque (Mar 26, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> If it's a planar adventure, they really should make that dice set have an Acheron theme. I mean, it only makes sense!




As long as it isn't the Great March through Archeron, because then all those different dice is bound to confuse me.


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## gyor (Mar 29, 2018)

If they do a Yawning Portal sort of book for Catacomb,  I'd like to see Desert of Desolation included in it.


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## darjr (Mar 29, 2018)

gyor said:


> If they do a Yawning Portal sort of book for Catacomb,  I'd like to see Desert of Desolation included in it.




Me too. I'd love a whole path though, pyramids and sandy adventure and glass seas!


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## nicolas.carrillos (Mar 30, 2018)

View attachment 95891I have a guess: one of the next products may take place in Waterdeep and be a urban adventure -one still missing in 5e, and Broadway reminds of New York. The why? Because the D&D Endless Quest books -choose your adventure-style- coming later this year seem to follow these adventures: fighter book - Out of the Abyss; wizard - Storm King’s Thunder; Cleric - Tomb of Annihilation; and the Thief’s book (https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dra...1522438335&sr=8-1&keywords=Matt+forbeck+thief) description says: “Welcome to the Forgotten Realms Endless Quest books, where you don’t just read a fantastic tale. You become the hero — and choose your own fate.
When you tried to pick the pocket of a civilar in the night-shrouded streets of Waterdeep, you never thought she’d catch you — and you never dreamed she’d force you into her service. Now you must find the baby griffon stolen by the beholder Xanathar, leader of the city’s powerful Thieves’ Guild. And if you should fail . . . you can count on spending the rest of your life behind bars, rogue”
I just hope it has a Sharn conversion if I happen to be right -Eberron is my favorite setting. We can have Boromar instead of Xanathar (criminal organization); the Sharn watch, Khyber/lower Sharn instead of Skullport...


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## Remathilis (Mar 31, 2018)

nicolas.carrillos said:


> I have a guess: one of the next products may take place in Waterdeep and be a urban adventure -one still missing in 5e, and Broadway reminds of New York. The why? Because the D&D Endless Quest books -choose your adventure-style- coming later this year seem to follow these adventures: fighter book - Out of the Abyss; wizard - Storm King’s Thunder; Cleric - Tomb of Annihilation; and the Thief’s book (https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dra...1522438335&sr=8-1&keywords=Matt+forbeck+thief) description says: “Welcome to the Forgotten Realms Endless Quest books, where you don’t just read a fantastic tale. You become the hero — and choose your own fate.
> When you tried to pick the pocket of a civilar in the night-shrouded streets of Waterdeep, you never thought she’d catch you — and you never dreamed she’d force you into her service. Now you must find the baby griffon stolen by the beholder Xanathar, leader of the city’s powerful Thieves’ Guild. And if you should fail . . . you can count on spending the rest of your life behind bars, rogue”
> I just hope it has a Sharn conversion if I happen to be right -Eberron is my favorite setting




Nice catch. 

Thief has to connect to the 2018/Broadway AP. The others connect to the major Fall APs (2015/RoD, 2016/SKT, 2017/ToA) and I can't see them creating a new story just for them (I mean, they could've used ToD if they needed a different AP tie-in). 

So based on the write-up, whatever the new AP is, its going to tie into Waterdeep and the Xanathar's guild, and possibly recovering baby griffon. Probably not the plot of the AP, but certainly the opening or side-quest.


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## Demetrios1453 (Mar 31, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> Nice catch.
> 
> Thief has to connect to the 2018/Broadway AP. The others connect to the major Fall APs (2015/RoD, 2016/SKT, 2017/ToA) and I can't see them creating a new story just for them (I mean, they could've used ToD if they needed a different AP tie-in).
> 
> So based on the write-up, whatever the new AP is, its going to tie into Waterdeep and the Xanathar's guild, and possibly recovering baby griffon. Probably not the plot of the AP, but certainly the opening or side-quest.



That would potentially point towards Catacomb being something about Undermountain...


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## Jester David (Mar 31, 2018)

Or the Rogue _Endless Quest_ is related to _Xanathar's Guide_ and not a storyline. 
Or the Waterdeep setting is meant to evoke _Tyranny of Dragons_. 
Or the fall adventure just didn't mesh at all with any of the characters...

We'll find out in like three months.


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## Herosmith14 (Apr 1, 2018)

Remathilis said:


> Nice catch.
> 
> Thief has to connect to the 2018/Broadway AP. The others connect to the major Fall APs (2015/RoD, 2016/SKT, 2017/ToA) and I can't see them creating a new story just for them (I mean, they could've used ToD if they needed a different AP tie-in).
> 
> So based on the write-up, whatever the new AP is, its going to tie into Waterdeep and the Xanathar's guild, and possibly recovering baby griffon. Probably not the plot of the AP, but certainly the opening or side-quest.




That seems likely.


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## Prakriti (Apr 1, 2018)

nicolas.carrillos said:


> the Thief’s book (https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dra...1522438335&sr=8-1&keywords=Matt+forbeck+thief) description says: “Welcome to the Forgotten Realms Endless Quest books, where you don’t just read a fantastic tale. You become the hero — and choose your own fate.
> When you tried to pick the pocket of a civilar in the night-shrouded streets of Waterdeep, you never thought she’d catch you — and you never dreamed she’d force you into her service. Now you must find the baby griffon stolen by the beholder Xanathar, leader of the city’s powerful Thieves’ Guild. And if you should fail . . . you can count on spending the rest of your life behind bars, rogue”



I was 90% certain we would get a planar adventure this year, but this changes everything. Good find.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 1, 2018)

I really want Castle Amber 5e. Maybe packaged with the sequel, Mark of Amber, which I never played. Actually it could include The Principalities of Glantri and Night Howlers, which all mention the Ambrevilles.


----------



## gyor (Apr 1, 2018)

Thief could = Yawning Portal book which does start in Waterdeep.


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## Herosmith14 (Apr 1, 2018)

gyor said:


> Thief could = Yawning Portal book which does start in Waterdeep.




True, but there's still the Xanathar link.


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## Parmandur (Apr 1, 2018)

Herosmith14 said:


> True, but there's still the Xanathar link.



Xanathar's Guide: honestly, this might be a clue, or it might be nothing. Given the heavy planar and Lantan clues, I'm leaning towards nothing.


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## bmfrosty (Apr 2, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Xanathar's Guide: honestly, this might be a clue, or it might be nothing. Given the heavy planar and Lantan clues, I'm leaning towards nothing.



The Xanathar's linked AL adventure gives a story award that compels the character to try and kill the Xanathar.


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## darjr (Apr 2, 2018)

Kill the Xanathar!!!!!


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## GarrettKP (Apr 11, 2018)

It should be noted that Dice Camera Action tonight hinted strongly that next season is taking place in Waterdeep and Undermountain. It’s looking more and more likely that those are the next Adventure books.


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## Parmandur (Apr 11, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> It should be noted that Dice Camera Action tonight hinted strongly that next season is taking place in Waterdeep and Undermountain. It’s looking more and more likely that those are the next Adventure books.



What, precisely, was said?


----------



## GarrettKP (Apr 11, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> What, precisely, was said?





Its a bit of a long explanation but here it goes:

SPOILERS! 

One of the characters got to talk to her dead father this episode, and he mentioned that he died in Undermountain and his remains are still there. He also mentioned an evil family that has fallen into worship of Shar that he was apparently trying to deal with. He died to a Vampire in the complex. 

They also introduced evil doppelgängers of the characters, and the leader of the Doppleganger group is a Shar worshiper. This also works with a vision Diath had of Paultin a few episodes back where a dark doppleganger of Paultin (that looked like Strahd, which this episodes version also does) was ruling over Waterdeep using the Ring of Winter. 

There’s been a lot of foreshadowing to a Waterdeep/Undermountain connection, and apparently a group (Cult?) of Shar worshipers is heavily involved.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 11, 2018)

Sounds boring.


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## Acolyte of Zothique (Apr 11, 2018)

On Nathan's Fireside chat this past Friday, Kate Welch confirmed there will be three releases this Autumn. Interestingly, they have not given a codeword for this fourth 2018 release. I reckon this 'extra' release may be the one that makes certain fans happy. My money is either on a planar guide to the multiverse - including stuff on various campaign settings - and perhaps a sprinkle of Spelljammer. Mike Meals is on record saying they want to surprise people.

I wouldn't speculate on Broadway and Catacombs; this mystery release is probably where the tasty treats are at.


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## gyor (Apr 11, 2018)

Acolyte of Zothique said:


> On Nathan's Fireside chat this past Friday, Kate Welch confirmed there will be three releases this Autumn. Interestingly, they have not given a codeword for this fourth 2018 release. I reckon this 'extra' release may be the one that makes certain fans happy. My money is either on a planar guide to the multiverse - including stuff on various campaign settings - and perhaps a sprinkle of Spelljammer. Mike Meals is on record saying they want to surprise people.
> 
> I wouldn't speculate on Broadway and Catacombs; this mystery release is probably where the tasty treats are at.




 If surpring people is the intent a Planar book won't do that. Still I have no idea what book number 4 will be.


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## Acolyte of Zothique (Apr 11, 2018)

gyor said:


> If surpring people is the intent a Planar book won't do that. Still I have no idea what book number 4 will be.




I didn't mean simply a planar guide/Manual of the Planes; I meant a guide to the Multiverse which covers Planes but also incorporates information/mechanics for using the various published campaign settings such as Greyhawk, Krynn, Eberron etc plus how to reach them - portals, astral conduits, Spelljammers etc. I believe either Jersey Crawford or Mearls mentioned this was the year the Multiverse would be brought to the fore so this would make sense. It's the kind of book a lot of people have mentioned they would like to see.

Still, this is all speculation as I don't have a clue.


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## Dried (Apr 11, 2018)

gyor said:


> If surpring people is the intent a Planar book won't do that. Still I have no idea what book number 4 will be.




Was it confirmed this 4th release is a physical book?
Could it not be a digital supplement like the Tortle Package?


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## GarrettKP (Apr 11, 2018)

I have a working theory for all 3 books. 

Obviously I’ve said for months now that Waterdeep and Undermountain would be Broadway and Catacomb, and I’m more confident in that prediticion now more than ever. 

As for the 3rd fall book, Mearls mentioned awhile back that it was unlike anything they have done for 5th edition. My guess? Spelljammer Campaign Guide. 

We’ve seen Spelljammer ships mentioned in Volos, we actually see one (tho one that is decommissioned) in Storm Kings Thunder, and we have confirmation that more than a few Spelljammer monsters are in Tome of Foes (Giff just got confirmed a few weeks ago). I think they have been laying ground work for Planar travel for awhile now and this is how they open up the multiverse. Spelljammer Guide and follow up next year with new settings like Darksun, Greyhawk and Eberron.


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## Acolyte of Zothique (Apr 11, 2018)

Dried said:


> Was it confirmed this 4th release is a physical book?
> Could it not be a digital supplement like the Tortle Package?




When Nathan Stewart asked Kate which releases for this fall she's worked on Kate stated that she's done editorial work for the first and second but not for the third.

It's pretty clear the third autumn release is a major product rather a digital release.


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 11, 2018)

Dried said:


> Was it confirmed this 4th release is a physical book?
> Could it not be a digital supplement like the Tortle Package?



They haven't counted those as "releases" before.


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## Quickleaf (Apr 11, 2018)

I assumed the 4th release is Dungeons and Dragons Art and Arcana: A Visual History as a licensed/collaborative product coming out in October 2018.


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## Acolyte of Zothique (Apr 11, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> I assumed the 4th release is Dungeons and Dragons Art and Arcana: A Visual History as a licensed/collaborative product coming out in October 2018.




Pretty sure it's not that; WotC are keeping quiet about this release - pretty certain it's an rpg supplement. Nathan Stewart didn't want to spoiler any of the upcoming releases just yet.

Mearls has also stated that they  (WotC) don't want to be predictable which is the reason why the rules supplement - Tome of Foes - is coming out this spring instead of November as in previous years. For the same reason it might be a mistake to assume there are not going to be more than three rpg related releases this year.

Another compelling reason why the release is not (likely) to be the art book is that the 4th release is being worked on by the design team. I don't know the people mentioned on the front of the art book but I know they aren't on the D&D design team. In D&D news Greg Tito just announced the art book so it's no secret.


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## Ibrandul (Apr 11, 2018)

Broadway = Waterdeep (mega-adventure part 1)

Catacomb = Undermountain (mega-adventure part 2)

So Secret We Can't Reveal Its Codename = _Stranger Things_ Setting/Adventure

I have no inside info but I'll lay money these are correct.


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## briggart (Apr 11, 2018)

Demetrios1453 said:


> They haven't counted those as "releases" before.




As Mearls said: they want to surprise people!


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## Parmandur (Apr 11, 2018)

jeremypowell said:


> Broadway = Waterdeep (mega-adventure part 1)
> 
> Catacomb = Undermountain (mega-adventure part 2)
> 
> ...



If Waterdeep/Undermountain are done, I would see that as being one book, not two.

The Stranger Things idea is pretty brilliant, but the interesting thing to note about the third book is that WotC hasn't said anything about any codenames: the community deduced the codenames by trawling third party bookseller information. If the third book is not the art book (which it may be still), it might not have blipped anybodies radar because it is not being pre-sold as a D&D book. Stranger Things: the RPG, Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Magic: The Gathering: The RPGening, etc. would be worked on by the D&D design team, but they might not be billed as "Dungeons & Dragons Supplement" in the catalogs...


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 12, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> If Waterdeep/Undermountain are done, I would see that as being one book, not two.
> 
> The Stranger Things idea is pretty brilliant, but the interesting thing to note about the third book is that WotC hasn't said anything about any codenames: the community deduced the codenames by trawling third party bookseller information. If the third book is not the art book (which it may be still), it might not have blipped anybodies radar because it is not being pre-sold as a D&D book. Stranger Things: the RPG, Star Frontiers, Gamma World, Magic: The Gathering: The RPGening, etc. would be worked on by the D&D design team, but they might not be billed as "Dungeons & Dragons Supplement" in the catalogs...




The Stranger Things idea is indeed a good point. The thing that gets me is that Release Number Four (by which I will refer to it from now on) is shrouded in such secrecy. Mearls and Crawford weren't "allowed to talk about it" yet, and now we are hearing that it may not be being edited in-house by WotC (as Kate isn't involved with that editing). That heavily implies to me that there is some third-party involvement that is tying hands and shutting mouths until everything is 100% official. A Stranger Things tie-in would definitely cause that, as would a setting book produced by a third party (perhaps said third party wanted to produce a guide to a classic setting as they are fans, asked to take it on, and WotC, otherwise too overworked to produce one, agreed).


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## LordEntrails (Apr 12, 2018)

Quickleaf said:


> I assumed the 4th release is Dungeons and Dragons Art and Arcana: A Visual History as a licensed/collaborative product coming out in October 2018.



Nice to see this, but are any of the authors actually very closely related with WotC?



> by Michael Witwer  (Author),‎ Kyle Newman  (Author),‎ Jon Peterson  (Author),‎ Sam Witwer (Author),‎ Joe Manganiello (Foreword)




Joe is the only name I recognize, but that's not saying much as I rarely pay attention to author names.


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## GarrettKP (Apr 12, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> If Waterdeep/Undermountain are done, I would see that as being one book, not two.




There’s no way this will be the case. Undermountain and Waterdeep are both large enough to encompass whole books by themselves. And there’s a reason the September and October books are so close together. They are connected. One is a true adventure (Broadway) and one is a companion to it (Catacomb). Waterdeep will be the Adventure, and Undermountain will be the Companion book. Just a Book detailing every room of Undermountain.


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## Hutchimus Prime (Apr 12, 2018)

Why are we hypothesizing about a Stranger Things product? Has there been any talk of that?


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## GarrettKP (Apr 12, 2018)

I went back and listened to the Gameshole Con State of D&D panel. In the panel they very specifically said that telling a story over multiple books is something they “very very very well may do” but that they wouldn’t do so over the course of multiple AL seasons/years. 

Waterdeep and Undermountain are Broadway and Catacomb, people. Get ready for it. It’s happening.


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## AsteronCalypse (Apr 12, 2018)

Catacomb: Tomb of Anhhialation Sequel
Marathon:  Somthing underwater


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## GarrettKP (Apr 12, 2018)

AsteronCalypse said:


> Catacomb: Tomb of Anhhialation Sequel
> Marathon:  Somthing underwater




... Marathon is Mordenkainens Tome of Foes. That’s already been announced.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Apr 12, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> I went back and listened to the Gameshole Con State of D&D panel. In the panel they very specifically said that telling a story over multiple books is something they “very very very well may do” but that they wouldn’t do so over the course of multiple AL seasons/years.
> 
> Waterdeep and Undermountain are Broadway and Catacomb, people. Get ready for it. It’s happening.




I sure hope at least one of them is a major city-wide urban campaign. Having just re-read WFRPG's The Enemy Within 1-2, I have an urge to play a urban adventure instead of pushing my players across half a continent. I'd like a smaller scale adventure with more focus on personal goals; no saving the world this time, please.


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## Lord Mhoram (Apr 12, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> I went back and listened to the Gameshole Con State of D&D panel. In the panel they very specifically said that telling a story over multiple books is something they “very very very well may do” but that they wouldn’t do so over the course of multiple AL seasons/years.
> 
> Waterdeep and Undermountain are Broadway and Catacomb, people. Get ready for it. It’s happening.




That would be perfect for me.


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## LordEntrails (Apr 13, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> There’s no way this will be the case. Undermountain and Waterdeep are both large enough to encompass whole books by themselves. And there’s a reason the September and October books are so close together. They are connected. One is a true adventure (Broadway) and one is a companion to it (Catacomb). Waterdeep will be the Adventure, and Undermountain will be the Companion book. Just a Book *detailing every room *of Undermountain.




I agree with everything you said except the part in bold 

WotC will never detail every room in Undermountain in a published book. There are about 4000 rooms in UM. Were they to detail them at 4 per page that would be a thousand page book... *G* 

Now, it's not impossible. I know, because I'm in the process of doing it. But I sure as heck am not going to be making it print on demand. I'm doing it in a database (Fantasy Grounds) where you can actually have that much data in a useful format. (I might someday make it available in a PDF, but there are organizational challenges in doing such and I have limited bandwidth.)


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## Quickleaf (Apr 13, 2018)

LordEntrails said:


> Nice to see this, but are any of the authors actually very closely related with WotC?
> 
> Joe is the only name I recognize, but that's not saying much as I rarely pay attention to author names.




Well, in a word, yes.

Michael Witwer (Author) penned Empire of Imagination: Gary Gygax and the Birth of D&D.
Sam Witwer (Author) is on Dice, Camera, Action.
Kyle Newman (Author)...wasn't he part of Extra Life? I can't remember.
Jon Peterson (Author) was interviewed by Greg Tito and Shelly Mazzanoble.
Joe Manganiello (Foreword) is an offical spokesperson for D&D.


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## gyor (Apr 13, 2018)

I'm going to buck the trend here and say I honestly don't think the next books are going to be Undermountian and Waterdeep. I still think one will be a Lantan/Spelljammer adventure and catacombs with be a Tales of the Yawning Portal style book.


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## Acolyte of Zothique (Apr 13, 2018)

LordEntrails said:


> Nice to see this, but are any of the authors actually very closely related with WotC?
> 
> 
> 
> Joe is the only name I recognize, but that's not saying much as I rarely pay attention to author names.




Nathan Stewart didn't want to spoiler any of the remaining 2018 or Spring 2019 releases - this includes all three releases later this year - and the Art book had already been announced. Therefore, the mystery release is not the Art book.

I would be very surprised if there was any involvement in the Stranger Things IP; I'm pretty sure WotC want to keep tight control on their products and involving someone else's IP wouldn't really permit that.


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## GarrettKP (Apr 13, 2018)

gyor said:


> I'm going to buck the trend here and say I honestly don't think the next books are going to be Undermountian and Waterdeep. I still think one will be a Lantan/Spelljammer adventure and catacombs with be a Tales of the Yawning Portal style book.




What makes you think that?


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 14, 2018)

I can see why an urban adventure would make sense, it's something that hasn't really been done before in an official 5e product. But I don't see the point in Undermountain. Large dungeons are a dime a dozen, and the only USP Undermountain has is that it is even larger. It goes back to the early days of AD&D when the sum total of sophisticated gameplay was open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure ...


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## Motorskills (Apr 14, 2018)

Releasing two adventures back to back doesn't seem make on the surface, however if they were partial sourcebooks as well (see SKT), it could work.

_Waterdeep:_ 50% urban sourcebook, 50% urban adventure
_The Planes: _50% planar sourcebook, 50% inter-planar adventure, featuring many monsters from MGtF.


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## CapnZapp (Apr 14, 2018)

vincegetorix said:


> I'd like a smaller scale adventure with more focus on personal goals; no saving the world this time, please.



I can't remember when that happened last...


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## CapnZapp (Apr 14, 2018)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I can see why an urban adventure would make sense, it's something that hasn't really been done before in an official 5e product. But I don't see the point in Undermountain. Large dungeons are a dime a dozen, and the only USP Undermountain has is that it is even larger. It goes back to the early days of AD&D when the sum total of sophisticated gameplay was open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure open the door kill the monster take the treasure ...



Why did you stop halfway through the story? I want to know how it ends!


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## gyor (Apr 14, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> What makes you think that?




 They mentioned Lantan would be in an upcoming book, which means the upcoming books can't be Waterdeep and Undermountain, and they have been teasing us with Spelljammer creatures Giff.


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 14, 2018)

gyor said:


> They mentioned Lantan would be in an upcoming book, which means the upcoming books can't be Waterdeep and Undermountain, and they have been teasing us with Spelljammer creatures Giff.




I'm not saying that Marathon and Catacomb definitively _won't_ feature Lantan and/or Spelljammer, but you can't say that those books "can't be Waterdeep and Undermountain" just based on Lantan being in "an upcoming book". After all, our mysterious Fourth Release book is "an upcoming book" as well, as are the 2019 (and later) releases. Heck, if anything, I would be more likely to peg the Fourth Release book as the Spelljammer one, since they've been so closed-mouthed about it.


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## GarrettKP (Apr 14, 2018)

gyor said:


> They mentioned Lantan would be in an upcoming book, which means the upcoming books can't be Waterdeep and Undermountain, and they have been teasing us with Spelljammer creatures Giff.




There are 3 books coming still. Waterdeep, Undermountain, Lantan/Spelljammer can all work together. Also Chris Perkins said simply that Lantan is in an upcoming story, not in a story this year. So there is that.


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## gyor (Apr 14, 2018)

Morrus said:


> WotC has been using codenames for its upcoming products for some time, mainly to stop anybody figuring our what's in the pipeline. Those codenames end up as placeholders on bookstores and the like. Eagle-eyed reader *Sean* spotted some upcoming items on McNally Robinson, a Canadian bookstore's website.
> View attachment 91140​
> 
> The items spotted were a 192-page hardcover accessory codenamed "Marathon" (May 2018); a 256-page hardcover adventure codenamed "Broadway" (September 2018), and another 256-page hardcover adventure codenamed "Catacomb" (November 2018). There's also a set of "Broadway" dice.
> ...




 Marathons link goes to MTOF and the other two now just go to the home page of that book store.


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## gyor (Apr 14, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> There are 3 books coming still. Waterdeep, Undermountain, Lantan/Spelljammer can all work together. Also Chris Perkins said simply that Lantan is in an upcoming story, not in a story this year. So there is that.




 That is possible, I guess we will see.

 I think the new third book will be either a Campaign Setting book, hopefully FRCG, although a different setting is possible.

 Or its another player book. I don't see them having three APs n a single season, maybe one AP and a Module update book like TOTYP with the third book being more like the SCAG, but hopefully bigger.

 This is my guess and we will see who is right and gets all the glory and who is wrong.


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## Morrus (Apr 15, 2018)

gyor said:


> Marathons link goes to MTOF and the other two now just go to the home page of that book store.




This post was 6 months ago. That's why I copy/pasted the info.


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## Jester David (Apr 19, 2018)

I expect the people thinking we will see four RPG books this year will be disappointed.
Even two original APs in the fall is unlikely.

Perkins is the primary adventure writer, and there’s almost no way he can get one (Broadway) in September and another related one (Catacomb) in November.
If there is a second AP, it will likely be written by the rest of the team and likely be reprint heavy. Or simply another book that isn’t quite splatbook or storyline adventure.

Meanwhile, when is this fourth RPG book expected to come out? December? A month after Catacomb. Unlikely. There’s a reason Mordenkeinan’s is coming out in May, six months after Xanathar's, rather than April like the previous books. 
Wouldn’t we see its codename?

More than likely the fourth *product* isn’t for the RPG, being a WotC or even a D&D product that is not an expansion of the tabletop game. The art book certainly qualifies, which has been leaked but not officially announced/ discussed by WotC. Another board game or related product would also count. (As would the dice for that matter.)


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## Parmandur (Apr 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I expect the people thinking we will see four RPG books this year will be disappointed.
> Even two original APs in the fall is unlikely.
> 
> Perkins is the primary adventure writer, and there’s almost no way he can get one (Broadway) in September and another related one (Catacomb) in November.
> ...



Well, whatever it turns out to be, it would be something that Kate Welch could edit, so no dice.


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## LordEntrails (Apr 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> I expect the people thinking we will see four RPG books this year will be disappointed.
> Even two original APs in the fall is unlikely.
> 
> Perkins is the primary adventure writer, and there’s almost no way he can get one (Broadway) in September and another related one (Catacomb) in November.
> If there is a second AP, it will likely be written by the rest of the team and likely be reprint heavy. Or simply another book that isn’t quite splatbook or storyline adventure....




Four would surprise me, but you do know that Broadway and Catacomb have already been written? The commissioned the art for it a couple months ago according to one of the artists.

Besides, Waterdeep and Undermountain aren't that hard to write, especially since they were written last year and play tested in ~November.

I think the fourth, if it happens, will be something new. Not an AP, probably not a setting. Maybe a book of fiction or myths?


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## Parmandur (Apr 20, 2018)

LordEntrails said:


> Four would surprise me, but you do know that Broadway and Catacomb have already been written? The commissioned the art for it a couple months ago according to one of the artists.
> 
> Besides, Waterdeep and Undermountain aren't that hard to write, especially since they were written last year and play tested in ~November.
> 
> I think the fourth, if it happens, will be something new. Not an AP, probably not a setting. Maybe a book of fiction or myths?



My money is on something off the wall, like Star Frontiers or Gamma World...which might also explain why the codenames wasn't uncovered...


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## Jester David (Apr 20, 2018)

Parmandur said:


> Well, whatever it turns out to be, it would be something that Kate Welch could edit, so no dice.



It could also be a board game or a card game. 
Or referring to the Drizzt book due this September.
Or she could have misspoke and was thinking of the spring 2019 book. 

But she did say it was something she did not _work_ on, since she only worked on two of the three. So dice would fit. Heck, so would Dungeon Tiles or a map pack. Design work is design work, and doing art orders would be part of her job. 



LordEntrails said:


> Four would surprise me, but you do know that Broadway and Catacomb have already been written? The commissioned the art for it a couple months ago according to one of the artists.



Right. And they’ve already begun work on the spring 2019 book. (But they were working on editing the May 2018 book as late as a couple months ago, so the fall books aren’t finished yet.)

The point is they would be hard pressed to get three books written within four months. Because whether they wrote it right now or six months ago, to get a book out in November and then December they’d need to be writing both at the same time. They’d be trying to get two books done in the same time they normally do one.



LordEntrails said:


> Besides, Waterdeep and Undermountain aren't that hard to write, especially since they were written last year and play tested in ~November.



Which is still assuming those are the books. No shortage of other possibilities. 

Regardless, I’m curious what you mean by “not hard to write”. 

Waterdeep would be easier as there’s a couple books already. But that still means researching, collating, updating, fixing contradictions, and the like. And you pretty much need to rewrite every word. So not very “easy”.
Still not sure that’d be the best book. That’s super niche when most gamers don’t play in the Realms.

Undermountain would be a big mega dungeon which would be a bear to write since you need to design and redesign dungeons, rooms, floors, etc. While thinking of new traps and magic and weirdness. That would be much, much harder than an overland adventure as dungeons are very space compact.

Plus, that’s be releasing two adventure a couple months apart. They’d compete with themselves. Whatever Catacomb is, it probably is not an adventure.



LordEntrails said:


> I think the fourth, if it happens, will be something new. Not an AP, probably not a setting. Maybe a book of fiction or myths?



Or an art book. Or many other options I posted above.

But, again, these codenames were revealed five months ago. If there was another unknown book in the works due a month after Catacomb, where is it’s codename and Amazon listing?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 20, 2018)

I would have to try and remember where I saw it and then go and dig it up again, though I am pretty sure I posted about it when it happened, but late last year or the beginning of this year, Mearls himself hinted there would be four hardcover books in 2018.


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## 77IM (Apr 20, 2018)

Breaking news! This just in! Get ready to have your minds blown!

If you put all the clues together, it's pretty clear that Marathon refers to an upcoming product called... _Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes_!

Unfortunately, we've got absolutely no info on this mysterious product, so its contents will remain a complete unknown for the foreseeable future.


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## Demetrios1453 (Apr 20, 2018)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I would have to try and remember where I saw it and then go and dig it up again, though I am pretty sure I posted about it when it happened, but late last year or the beginning of this year, Mearls himself hinted there would be four hardcover books in 2018.



Yep, it was either Mearls or Crawford who mentioned the fourth book they weren't sure they were allowed to even mention the existence of at that point. It might have been considered a trolling joke, but the recent statement by Kate now seems to confirm it.


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## GarrettKP (Apr 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> It could also be a board game or a card game.
> Or referring to the Drizzt book due this September.
> Or she could have misspoke and was thinking of the spring 2019 book.
> 
> ...




You can not believe it, but 3 Hardcovers are coming this fall. Kate Welch specifically spoke of editorial work and playtesting for all 3 products, so it won't be dice or tiles. And one of the D&D 5e Facebook page admins who did artwork for the fall books confirms there are 3 hardcovers coming. So we have 2 WotC employees and a freelance artist contracted to work on the books all confirming 3 hardcovers are coming. I don't know what more evidence you need.


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## Jester David (Apr 20, 2018)

GarrettKP said:


> You can not believe it, but 3 Hardcovers are coming this fall. Kate Welch specifically spoke of editorial work and playtesting for all 3 products, so it won't be dice or tiles. And one of the D&D 5e Facebook page admins who did artwork for the fall books confirms there are 3 hardcovers coming. So we have 2 WotC employees and a freelance artist contracted to work on the books all confirming 3 hardcovers are coming. I don't know what more evidence you need.



Friend of a friend, eh?

I’ll believe it when it’s announced. Or we get a release date with ISBN and possible codename. 
After all, we had a cover, release date, and details for 2015’s _Adventurer’s Handbook_, but that was never released. And this forum is prone to wild speculation. We were all convinced two months ago that the spring AP would be The Great Modron March meets Lantan and Spelljammer.

And even IF there is another hardcover that isn’t the art book... that doesn’t mean it will be a D&D product, let alone a D&D TTRPG book. Releasing one in September, November, and December is a super fast 3e/4e pace of releases.

In the meantime, I see no reason to get my hopes up for a fourth RPG book.


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## LordEntrails (Apr 20, 2018)

Jester David said:


> ....
> Regardless, I’m curious what you mean by “not hard to write”.
> 
> Waterdeep would be easier as there’s a couple books already. But that still means researching, collating, updating, fixing contradictions, and the like. And you pretty much need to rewrite every word. So not very “easy”.
> Still not sure that’d be the best book. That’s super niche when most gamers don’t play in the Realms....



I think 5E UM goes back several years. I think it was planned to go with movie that was early on talked about being released this year (which we now know is years away if ever).

Ok, UM is not easy to write, I will give you that. I know, I'm doing it for release on the Guild. But, doing it the way WotC/TSR has always done it is pretty straight forward. They have never done it completely, they don't even do full maps. They do it in parts and setup one or more quest lines. Doing that is horrendous. And again, since I believe they did all that in '16/17 ever since then it has been editing and re-writing. Which can be as intensive as you want it to be.

Traps aren't that hard to write/create. They have lots to draw upon, I certainly don't have much problem with them once I decided which of the various formats I wanted to go with.

Maps are straight forward. They can base them on the 2E versions, the FRIA versions, the 4E versions or even throw all that out like they did in Encounters and make new ones for the small areas that they do in detail.

Besides, I don't think it's like last month they go, "ok, we now need to write two APs for release this fall...." Nope, instead they are APs that have been in draft for many many moons. 

All that said, discussion is of little value at this time until we learn something new right?



Jester David said:


> ...And this forum is prone to wild speculation. We were all convinced two months ago that the spring AP would be The Great Modron March meets Lantan and Spelljammer....



Yes it is. But "we" were? Cuz I wasn't *G*


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## Herosmith14 (Apr 21, 2018)

Jester David said:


> Friend of a friend, eh?
> 
> I’ll believe it when it’s announced. Or we get a release date with ISBN and possible codename.
> After all, we had a cover, release date, and details for 2015’s _Adventurer’s Handbook_, but that was never released. And this forum is prone to wild speculation. We were all convinced two months ago that the spring AP would be The Great Modron March meets Lantan and Spelljammer.
> ...




Hate to throw a log on this fire, but I think the Adventurer's Handbook turned into SCAG...


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## Jester David (Apr 21, 2018)

LordEntrails said:


> I think 5E UM goes back several years. I think it was planned to go with movie that was early on talked about being released this year (which we now know is years away if ever).



I think WotC has learned their lesson about trying to coordinate with video games and movies.



LordEntrails said:


> Besides, I don't think it's like last month they go, "ok, we now need to write two APs for release this fall...." Nope, instead they are APs that have been in draft for many many moons.



Right. But when they finish a book they move onto a new one. No matter how far ahead they started the draft, at the end they’re still trying to make three books in the same time as they normally try and make two. A 50% increase on their output.



Herosmith14 said:


> Hate to throw a log on this fire, but I think the Adventurer's Handbook turned into SCAG...



Not really. 
_Adventurer’s Handbook_ was done by Sasquatch Games. SCAG was written by Green Ronin. Very different books. And several of the subclasses were released on UA well after AH was to be released. 
A few subclasses might have been planned for AH but I think most was scrapped.


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## briggart (Apr 27, 2018)

This year AL D&D OPEN is Gangs of Waterdeep and will premiere at Origins. 

Last year' was Lost Temples of Lake Luo, which gave way to the ToA storyline, so this points toward Season 8 being Waterdeep related.


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## GarrettKP (May 1, 2018)

http://dnd.wizards.com/some

Told y’all it was Undermountain.


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## Prakriti (May 1, 2018)

I thought we would get a planar adventure this year. I'm still a little surprised that we aren't, but Waterdeep is one of my very favorite D&D locations, so I'm happy.

Congrats to those who guessed correctly.


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## gyor (May 1, 2018)

Looks like I was wrong and it's Undermountain,  how that ties into Lantan I don't know, but Skulport does have Spelljammers.


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## TheSword (May 2, 2018)

Awesome, one of my groups got into D&D through the lords of waterdeep game. They’ll be stoked to have a campaign set there. Definitely a good choice and unique in D&D history outside of Dungeon Magazine.


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## Sword of Spirit (May 2, 2018)

What are y’all reading at that link? The only spoiler I can see is “we’ll tell you in June!” What am I missing?


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## Parmandur (May 2, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> What are y’all reading at that link? The only spoiler I can see is “we’ll tell you in June!” What am I missing?



The picture is of the Xanathar, and there are a number of references to Eyeof the Beholder (which was a dungeon  delve beneath Waterdeep to kill the Xanathars) in andaround the announcement.


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## Hutchimus Prime (May 2, 2018)

Sword of Spirit said:


> What are y’all reading at that link? The only spoiler I can see is “we’ll tell you in June!” What am I missing?





Glad I wasn’t the only one confused.


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## darjr (May 2, 2018)

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/256697490

In D&D news on twitch today there were... hints... and mention of hints all over

So anyone fine any yet?


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## LordEntrails (May 2, 2018)

gyor said:


> Looks like I was wrong and it's Undermountain,  how that ties into Lantan I don't know, but Skulport does have Spelljammers.



Uh, why the requirement to have a tie to Lantan or Spelljammer?


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## Tiles (May 22, 2018)

At 44:25 of Dragon talk greg Tito mentioned waterdeep.


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