# Powergamers! Help Min/Max my Sorcerer!!



## Dragonblade (Aug 23, 2006)

So in our Age of Worms game the entire party was wiped out by the Faceless One and his minions. TPK. Unfortunately, we made very RPG centric characters that weren't really optimized for efficient tactics and combat.

So in turn, our group is making new characters. But this time we are going to make tactically efficient min/maxed badasses. Our new party is basically going to be the Navy SEALs of Greyhawk. Our DM has basically said bring it on and the new party will pick up where the old party left off.

I'm trying to choose the right combination of feats and spells to just kick the most tail. So help me out. Create for me the most hideously overpowered and devastatingly effective Sorcerer build you can!

Starting level is 5. Attributes are a 1 for 1, 80 point buy. We can have 5000gp of gear to start and ALL feats, spells, and prestige classes from any WotC 3.5 book (or Dragon magazine) are allowed. Though no Eberron feats or classes that use Action Points. And no setting specific classes or feats. For example, no Spellfire because it only exists in the Realms.

And if you use Dragon provide the issue number, month and year. Although I prefer builds that use WotC books over Dragon simply because I may not have the issue needed.

If you can, map out the feats and spells you would take at higher levels too. All the way to 20th if you can. There it is. Show me your best.


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

> Starting level is 5. Attributes are a 1 for 1, 80 point buy.




Oh?

Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 30.

Everything else is gravy.


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## Dragonblade (Aug 23, 2006)

Nice. But, you can't have more than 18 or less than 3 in a stat.


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## Iku Rex (Aug 23, 2006)

What do you want to _do_ with this sorcerer? Area spells? Rays? Melee? Party buffing?  

How important is current power vs. future power?


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## Moon-Lancer (Aug 23, 2006)

god, 80. thats about 3 18's and 3 16's


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

Good to hear. 

Str 8, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 18

It's hard to produce too much hideousness at level 5, but I'll do my best. 

Human sorcerer 5
Feats: Draconic Heritage (copper), draconic breath, draconic resistance.
Important gear: cloak of resistance +1 (1000 gp), bracers of armor +1 (2000 gp), all the scrolls you can eat.

Basically, you've got a +3 save bonus to any acid spell or any sleep or paralysis effect. Draconic resistance isn't spectacular, but it gives you acid resistance 9, making you immune to Melf's acid arrow (which is ordinarily a concentration buster). Finally, draconic breath is a supernatural ability, allowing you to deal acid damage to opponents with SR whenever other options fail to manifest, and additionally, is good as a regen stopper.

Spells
(0) detect magic, resistance, dancing lights, flare, daze, mage hand
(1st) lesser orb of acid (does 3d8), shield, magic missile, disguise self
(2nd) summon monster II, melf's acid arrow

I like the summon monster spells for sorcerers because of their versatility (you can summon virtually any damage type, for instance, and even get healing). Later on, shadow conjuration and otiluke's resilient sphere are must-takes for the same reason. Disguise self is similarly useful in a wide variety of contexts. Acid arrow is for readying to interrupt other casters; in addition to spoiling their spell, the continuing damage makes it hard for them to cast anything else. Magic missile is for incorporeals. Lesser orb of acid is for creatures high Reflexes and/or low AC, such as enemy rogues. No mage armor; cast shield, you don't want to spend more than one round prepping for a melee you don't want to get into anyway, it doesn't overlap with your bracers, and stops enemy magic missiles. 

Advance to Sorcerer 8, then take four levels of Fatespinner (CA), then two more levels of sorcerer or a PrC that has full caster progression and no feat requirements.

At 6th level, take draconic power, offering a dubious upgrade to your acid spells that will pay off later. At 9th, you take Draconic Legacy for some nice bonus spells. At 12th level, you take spell focus (conjuration), at 15th spell focus (something else), and 18th, skill focus (spellcraft). You take two levels of archmage, snagging mastery of elements and arcane fire. Now you have untyped damage, and against foes that seem to lack acid resistance, you can turn all damage dealing spells to acid and get +1 DC and caster level. 

Fatespinner is for capriciously causing people to fail saving throws. 

Familiars are probably a liability. Unlike a wizard, you will rarely have contingencies to keep it safe in every situation. However, a well-stored Toad is good for a Fortitude bonus.


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## Dragonblade (Aug 23, 2006)

Future power is as important as current power.

My current build is geared towards taking the Elemental Savant (Air) prestige class in a couple of levels. Like most arcane prestige classes, sorcerers gain a lot for little loss. At the class's highest level you become an elemental type creature. In my case, being Air based it would give me the ability of Perfect Flight as a natural movement mode among other benefits like being immune to crits, not having to eat or breathe and so on.

For spells, since I have to focus on electricity, I would take Scintillating Sphere instead of Fireball and other electric based attack spells.

I'm also thinking of taking the Celestial Sorcerer Heritage feats from PHB 2. They also give me some cool powers and add several useful spells to my spells known list such as magic circle vs. evil, tongues, and teleport.

However, there are some other cool builds as well. The Argent Savant from Complete Arcane is pretty nifty and the Spell Compendium has a large number of Force based spells.

I also think the Daggerspell Mage from Complete Adventurer is pretty cool. Combine that with Arcane Strike and or the Daggerspell Stance spell from Spell Compendium and you have a pretty formidable arcane/warrior.

Another thing I was thinking of was going with Wizard and utilizing a lot of wands. Cull Wand Essence is a badass wand feat from Eberron that basically lets you turn any wand into a defacto Eldritch Blast ala the Warlock.

But my heart is really with Sorcerer. I hate being tied down to prememorized spells. The trick is finding a sorcerer build that has the right synergy among spells and feats to kick major tail.


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## Dragonblade (Aug 23, 2006)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> god, 80. thats about 3 18's and 3 16's




Not quite. Its basically 4 14's and 2 12's. Not so overpowering.


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## Rackhir (Aug 23, 2006)

Well with those kind of stats you can afford to do more than one thing well. Have you considered Mystic Theurge? It works a little better if you go Wiz/Cleric, but Sorc/Cleric can work as well, it just delays your ability to take MT levels.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm

Combine that with Practiced Spellcaster (increase caster level by 4 max of Char Lv) and it overcomes a lot of the level loss due to the multiclassing, though you will need to take it twice.


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## Dragonblade (Aug 23, 2006)

Nice build pawsplay. I see you like the acid. 

However, when it comes to taking the Sorcerer Heritage feats, I think the Celestial Heritage feats in PHB 2 give more bang than the Draconic ones. I will take another look. And also at the Fatespinner prestige class.

You have my interest piqued with the Summon Monster spell. What would you do with the summoned creature? Personal defense? Scouting?


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## Xarls Taunzund (Aug 23, 2006)

Pawsplay's build is not a bad one, especially considering how few critters are immune, or even resistant to acid.  Also, once you get third level spells, as your first or second choice you will want haste, this spell can effectively double the movement rates of all of your party members.  I have seen many battles won through the added manueverability of then entire party.


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## Dragonblade (Aug 23, 2006)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> Well with those kind of stats you can afford to do more than one thing well. Have you considered Mystic Theurge? It works a little better if you go Wiz/Cleric, but Sorc/Cleric can work as well, it just delays your ability to take MT levels.
> 
> http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm
> 
> Combine that with Practiced Spellcaster (increase caster level by 4 max of Char Lv) and it overcomes a lot of the level loss due to the multiclassing, though you will need to take it twice.




Mystic Theurge is cool but you effectively lose 3 casting levels from each class. By the time I'm level 7, I'd only have the spellcasting ability of a 4th level character in terms of spell levels I have access to even with Practiced Spellcaster boosting my existing caster level. 

And being able to cast cleric spells in addition to sorcerer spells is just not worth the spell level loss to me. For sheer min/maxing, I want to find a cool prestige class with lots of cool powers that takes nothing away from the sorcerer.

However, the Evangelist class from Dragon Magazine would be a good combo with Sorcerer and Mystic Theurge if I wanted sheer number of spells and maximum flexibility. Something to consider.


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## Xarls Taunzund (Aug 23, 2006)

Have you considered the Exalted Arcanist from the Book of Exalted Deeds? Only 5 levels, you lose one caster level and get to add ALL Sanctified spells to your list of spells known.


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Nice build pawsplay. I see you like the acid.
> 
> However, when it comes to taking the Sorcerer Heritage feats, I think the Celestial Heritage feats in PHB 2 give more bang than the Draconic ones. I will take another look. And also at the Fatespinner prestige class.
> 
> You have my interest piqued with the Summon Monster spell. What would you do with the summoned creature? Personal defense? Scouting?




Lantern archons are on the IV list; they have unlimited aid, which translates into unlimited (albeit slow) healing. Large elementals are good beaters. Creatures from the lower lists are good, especially in numbers, to rush opponents with lots of AoOs, such as hydras or spiked chain wielding vampires. Summoned monsters can also walk through traps. Many of them are suitable as very temporary mounts. Hound archons have a formidable aura of menace, which may cause a bad guy who flubs his save to take a penalty to saves. They can also detect evil and speak. In fact, all archons can use tongues, making them usesful as translators and very handy as summonable creatures. 

One particularly handy aspect for arcane casters is that you can summon creatures with difficult to beat DRs. For instance, if you're fighting demons, you can summon devils or more demons. If you're fighting celestials, you can summon archons. 

A group of weaker creatures could be ordered to accompany you, providing constant cover and allowing you to move about without drawing AoOs. 

Large numbers of lantern archons can also deliver hideous amounts of untyped damage in the form of their light rays.


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## Solarious (Aug 23, 2006)

I strongly suggest taking _Versatile Spellcaster_ from Races of the Dragon. Sacrifice 2 lower slots to power spells a level higher! Also, PHII offers the metamagic specialization in exchange for a familiar, which allows you to metamagic spells Int + 3 times without increasing casting time.

However, I believe Sorceror spell selection is very important, perhaps even more important than charting out a PrC. When selecting spells, try to choose those which have maximum effect or multiple uses: for example, when choosing a 6th level spell, pick up something like _Disintegrate_, which opens up doors and is a save-or-die rather than a pure blasting spell like _Chain Lightning_.

As for a good PrC, you can't really beat an Incantatrix for sheer utility and brokeness, and it can be easily made setting-neutral. Full casting progression, excellent abilities, and eases some of the sting from entering the class. Just select Necromancy as your prhibited school, which is anywhere from 50-75% negative energy based... not particularly effective at times in AoW. In fact, I'll need to list the advantages so I don't pass them over inadvertantly.


3 bonus metamagic feats: more than a Wizard recieves in the equivilant 10 levels! Instantly makes up for the Iron Will prequisite.
Full spellcasting progession: don't loose any spells known/spell slots, and don't fall behind on spell level progession, which already hurts as a Sorceror.
See and Strike Etheral: Ghosts (and this is an undead heavy campign, I hope you realize by now) can be blasted without worrying about hitting teammates or that irritating 50% miss chance.
Hardy Spirit: As befiting an undead-heavy campaign, there are energy drain effects aglore. And death effects are -always- a good thing to be immune to, undead or no.
Instant and Improved Metamagic: Complements your metamagic focus well. More metamagics without the extra time are always good, plus Improved will give you more of an excuse to flex those _Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray_s for only the cost of 5th level slot, the same as a regular _Maximized Scorching Ray_! Better yet, a _Empowered Maximized Ray of Eneveration_ (Empowerment is optional, really), which reduces mighty giants into meerly competent melee combatants, standard melee monsters into mewling cats, and the infirm into sobbing heaps on the floor that can't even carry their own equipment anymore.
Drain Item and Send Away: The icing on the cake.

Simply top with Archmage, and you're set. Good choices include _Mastery of Shaping_ and _Master of Elements_, both essential for the burgoning incinerator of enemies. And think! Sonic damage to all your previously elemental spells. No one is safe. 

You need to either take a feat to aliviate the pain of not having Knowledge (The planes), or talk to your DM about switching it from something else, like dropping Bluff or Craft (Alchemy). Either way is fine: Education gives you all the Knowledge skills, which helps when you want to identify monster weaknesses (and there are a lot of different monsters you might want to be aware of).

Sample build:
Human Sorceror 5
Feats: Education, Versatile Spellcaster, Iron Will
Spells:
0 - Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Read Magic, Message, Dancing Lights, Prestidigitation
1 - Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Magic Missile, Nerveskitter (SC)
2 - Scorching Ray, Glitterdust

_Acid Splash_ as the obligitary damage cantrip, _Detect/Read Magic_ for obvious reasons, Message for communication in compromised situations, _Dancing Lights_ for instant searchlights without the pebble tossing nonsense, and _Prestidigitation_ to keep clean, dry, and service many RP needs.

_Ray of Enfeeblement_: the great equalizer against anything with a disproportinately high Str score. Remains useful into the mid/high levels, especially metamagiced. _Grease_ can help allies escape grapples, enemies to drop weapons, or trip up concentrated formations. _Magic Missile_ is the all-purpose damage spell that doesn't miss (usually), and _Nerveskitter_ (from the Spell Compendium) gives you the edge needed to throw out that first _Ray of Eneveration_ before the enemies close in and befuddle your ability to not hit your own party.

_Scorching Ray_ is a mainstay, dealing lots of damage even at higher levels (especially when metaed to size), and _Glitterdust_ both blinds and eliminates _invisibility_ effects with a double whammy.

That covers the basics. Grab _Empower Spell_ at 6 for _Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement_ goodness, and a choice spell. I also approve of _Haste_, since you can stick with Empowering 1st level spells, and you don't neccessarily need more blasting at the moment, since opponents are typically vulnerable to Enfeeblement and blindness effects when you aren't making your party speed demons. Commision wands or scrolls if you feel the need for burning zombie flesh in the morning.

Your Lesser Orb can wait until 7th, since they don't get good until the higher levels, and mind you they work great with metamagics. Oh yeah, pick up a Mithril Buckler, and magic it up to provide a more consistant defence than _Shield_. If you're really worried about _Magic Missile_, grab a Brooch of Shielding, or ask your DM if you can incorperate a _Lesser Spell Immunity_... purely to make it resemble a _Shield_ spell, of course. Add the Animated quality, and it's nearly the same. Or you can add other qualities, like Heavy Fortification, or energy resistances, and so on.

The rest is up to you, can't do character for you!


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

Scorching ray is a great spell. The only reason I didn't put it in my build was the need for a continuing damage spell that could be cast as a single action, and draconic breath is fine for straight up damage. I would definitely make it a priority for a second level spell, though. It does solid damage and scales nicely.


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## Moon-Lancer (Aug 23, 2006)

my bad. I dident understand you, now i realize you mean start with every ability score at starting at 1.


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## Jack Simth (Aug 23, 2006)

Unfortunately, Aid is temporary HP, not healing, so it doesn't stack and it won't get rid of wounds already present.

All sources available?  Including Dragon Magizine?

Look up the Dragon Magazine Bloodline feats - 325 and 311, I think it was - many of them give you an extra spell known from a specific list at each spell level, in return for dropping a particular type of spell from your class list.  As a Sorcerer, Spells Known are your greatest weakness.  These feats are really, really fun.

Other options include shooting for the Mage of the Arcane Order PrC - a Human Sorcerer, with Arcane Preparation, Cooperative Metamagic, and some other metamagic feat meets all the pre-requisites at 5th level, ready to take the class at 6th.  With that route, you'll always be able to call up the PHB Sor/Wiz spell you want, provided it's of a spell level you can cast. As a Sorcerer, you shouldn't have any trouble paying off your spellpool debt at the end of the day.  In fact, you really should pay ahead.  You'll gain back the two mostly low-value feats (Cooperative metamagic and Arcane Preparation) you invested into getting into the PrC as you advance in the PrC (it grants two bonus feats).
A called spell only stays in mind for one minute per caster level, so most DM's won't let them be used to craft items - but they can be put into, say, Rings of Spell Storing, or Spell Storing weapons. However, if you know what you'll be doing, you can have exactly the right spell for the job - about once/day (half your caster level in called spell levels each day - one spell of the highest level you can cast, or a few lower-level spells).  

I may be alone in the crowd with this one, but make certain you have Rope Trick and Extend Spell when you hit 6th level.  It gives you a way up walls (rope has a climb DC of 5), lets you rest virtually anywhere (invisible, spells can't cross the interface, up a ways - will foil most opponents, unless you abuse the trick too much, in which case, your DM will find one of the opponents it won't foil), grants some measure of protection against Scry/Buff/Teleport (+5 bonus to the Will save vs. Scrying if the target is on a different plane - and Rope Trick makes a different plane for you to be on; likewise, Teleport only works on the plane you're on, and you're on a different plane in a Rope Trick - and even Discern Location starts out with what plane you're on, and gets more specific from there; Rope Trick Dimension # 13347?  Umm.... I don't think anyone will have a prepared focus for it.....).  Depending on interpertation, it can also be used as an archery platform, that leaves you invisible while firing.  

The Planar Binding line is handy - you'll need four spells at any given point to pull it off properly - Magic Circle Against [Good/Evil] (3rd), Dimensional Anchor (4th), Dismissal (5th), and one of the Planar Binding spells (Lesser (6 HD critters, 5th), normal (12 HD critters, 6th), Greater (18 HD critters, 8th).  Careful, though; Magic Circle Against Good is an [Evil] spell, so a Paladin will get upset with you if you keep Calling angels.  Likewise, if you Call up an Evil creature, it's an [Evil] spell.  Elementals are pretty safe, though.  Gives you something of the Wizard's ability to prepare for a specific, known encounter - the Wizard can prepare the perfect spell, the Planar Binding Sorcerer can Call the perfect help.  

The [Shadow] line of spells is very handy for a Sorcerer (although you don't need to worry about it much until 8th, with Shadow Conjouration) as it can duplicate a LOT of the utility spells - Shadow Conjouration (4th) can noteably duplicate: Phantom Steed, Sepia Snake Sigil, Sleet Storm, Stinking Cloud, Acid Arrow, Glitterdust, Web, Summon Swarm, Fog Cloud, Grease, Mount, and Mage Armor, in addition to Summon Monster I, II, and III.  Also, it's a standard action to cast - instant flanking for the Rogue in the party, Will save or no.  Shadow Evocation (5th) can do Fire Shield, Wall of Fire, Wall of Ice, Ice Storm, Resilient Sphere, Daylight, Tiny Hut, Wind Wall (although that one is particularly ineffective), Continual Flame, Darkness, Gust of Wind (ditto), and Floating Disk (ditto again) in addition to most of the standard damge-dealing spells.  The particular benefit of a Shadow Evocation Daylight or Continual Flame is that there's a decent chance that your high-will save opponents will be left in the dark......
The other advantage of the [Shadow] line, of course, is all the nifty PrC's for it, as well as the nifty that you can actually use Spell Focus and Greater Spell focus (Illusion), as your Illusion save DC will get used a lot.

Meh, I'm done rambling for now.

Edit: Oh, not quite.
Unless your DM is using the Magic and Psionics are Different clause in the XPH, make sure to pick up Limited Wish at 14th.  Duplicate a power - Psychic Reformation - to replace all your spells known for the last 6 levels at the cost of 300 xp.  Only works under transparency, though.


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## Solarious (Aug 23, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Scorching ray is a great spell. The only reason I didn't put it in my build was the need for a continuing damage spell that could be cast as a single action, and draconic breath is fine for straight up damage. I would definitely make it a priority for a second level spell, though. It does solid damage and scales nicely.



 I used _Scorching Ray_ because most of the 1st level spells are nondamaging, I didn't use Draconic Breath in my build, and Versatile Spellcaster could sac 2 1st level spells in order to squeeze more uses out, while still being able to reserve cantrip slots in order to cast anything you already sacrificed. Plus, I feel that the _Summon Monster_ line doesn't really come into it's own until you get to elementals, at least. The higher you go, the more flexible the list becomes, and you can always snatch multiples from a lower tier with a higher spell.

I can't believe I forgot the Shadow emulation spells! Yeah, those are great, although I don't really feel they're worth devoting that many resources to optimizing them. For more spells, if you have access to the Spell Compendium, try to browse through it a few times. Mind you, Core has plenty of nasty tricks up it's sleaves in the first place already.


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## Jack Simth (Aug 23, 2006)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> Not quite. Its basically 4 14's and 2 12's. Not so overpowering.



Or it's three 18's, two 8's, and a 10.  Or four 18's and two 4's (great for the Druid who plans on getting natural spell).


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

> Unfortunately, Aid is temporary HP, not healing, so it doesn't stack and it won't get rid of wounds already present.




I stand corrected. It's still a nice perk, though.


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## two (Aug 23, 2006)

*MUST HAVE AN 18 Con!*

With and 80 point buy, there is NO EXCUSE TO NOT have an 18 in con.

It helps your HP, your fort saves, and will probably save your life before 2-3 levels pass (either via the additional HP or the fort save).

Str 6, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18

That looks to me like the start of a very nice sorcerer build.

The dex is for ranged touch attacks and AC and initiative and reflex save; the con is obvious as is the Ch.

You don't need str, int, wis so why worry about it?

This is MIN/MAX!  

So, take your 18's and minimize the rest!


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## KarinsDad (Aug 23, 2006)

He miswrote guys.

It's 32 point buy or 80 total points.

He'll be lucky to have 18 Cha pre-4th level boost with that.


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## two (Aug 23, 2006)

KarinsDad said:
			
		

> He miswrote guys.
> 
> It's 32 point buy or 80 total points.
> 
> He'll be lucky to have 18 Cha pre-4th level boost with that.




Ooooooh.

Well in that case you need to decide if the sorcerer requires high DC's or not.

If not, a Ch=14 at level 1 is fine.

If high DC's needed, Ch=17 is what I would suggest.

Str 7, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 17

(lowering strength to 6 gives you some point buy points, or not)?

That's a 33 point buy build, 32 if you are allowed to lower STR by 1 and gain a point.

Otherwise, drop Dex down to 13.


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## Iku Rex (Aug 23, 2006)

Neraph sorecerer 5.

32 point buy

Str 9
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 17
+1 Cha on level 4

If you want to go for incantatrix (NOTE: 3.5 version in PGtF) you'll need a higher Int to qualify by 6th level. 

Spells known: 
1st (4): Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Shocking Grasp, Burning Hands
2nd (2): Alter Self, Wings of Cover (RotD 119)

Feats: Force of Personality (CAdv 109), Empower Spell

Rat familiar. (Or the sorcerer variant from the PHBII, if incantatrix.)

Equipment: Vest of Resistance (CArc) +1, Ring of Protection +1, +2000 gp 

Tactics: Use alter self to turn into a dwarf ancestor. With mage armor you'll have AC 34, and you can enter melee range with some confidence. This lets you use the 5d6 shocking grasp on single opponents (no save) or blast groups with burning hands. Your saves are decent, and with wings of cover you can shut down almost any attack you don't want to hit you. (Max spellcraft to know what you're up against.)

Variant: A neraph melee sorcerer going for master of many forms, (ab)using the outsider polymorph, could be a fun character.
Variant 2: Wings of cover is powerful enough to build a character around. A dragonblood sorcerer specializing in force spells and going into argent savant could be pretty neat. (I have some ideas for a force themed sorcerer spell list somewhere, if you want that.)


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## TheNovaLord (Aug 23, 2006)

Neraph sorecerer 5.


Tactics: Use alter self to turn into a dwarf ancestor. 

suely you cant alter self into a large outsider?

JohnD


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## Iku Rex (Aug 23, 2006)

TheNovaLord said:
			
		

> suely you cant alter self into a large outsider?



Why not? (Note: "Neraphim are native to the plane of Limbo, and thus have the outsider type.")


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> Why not? (Note: "Neraphim are native to the plane of Limbo, and thus have the outsider type.")




Well, carrying around Large stone statue might be inconvenient.



> When first summoned, a dwarf ancestor takes up residence within a statue of a dwarf hero, animating it.


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## Iku Rex (Aug 23, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Well, carrying around Large stone statue might be inconvenient.



Good thing you're _turing into_ a dwarf ancestor then, rather than summoning it.  :\


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> Good thing you're _turing into_ a dwarf ancestor then, rather than summoning it.  :\




But alter form specificies that you take on the physical qualities of the new form. A dwarf ancestor is bodiless.


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## Iku Rex (Aug 23, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> But alter form specificies that you take on the physical qualities of the new form. A dwarf ancestor is bodiless.



No it's not. Read the actual creature entry. The part about the "spirits of dwarven heroes" is just fluffy flavor text.

Many DnD creatures, like some constructs and some undead are animated by extraplanar entities or souls/"spirits". That does make them bodiless or (in itself) invalid targets for shapechanging spells. 

And the dwarf ancestor isn't even a construct - it's an outsider, with the physiology of a living creature (need to breathe, vital organs, etc.) . In fact, as I understand the basic DnD cosmology, it is common for outsiders to be the souls of dead mortals taken new form.


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## Thanee (Aug 23, 2006)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> And the dwarf ancestor isn't even a construct - it's an outsider, with the physiology of a living creature (need to breathe, vital organs, etc.) .






> They are the spirits of heroes long dead, returned to the Material Plane in times of need. They have no need of food, drink, sleep, or air.




They are spirits, that inhabit statues and animate them.

I seriously doubt, that this works. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Iku Rex (Aug 23, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> They are spirits, that inhabit statues and animate them.
> 
> I seriously doubt, that this works.



Ah, you're right about the breathing. They still have a physiology though, or they'd be immune to critical hits, stunning and similar. 

And you seem to have overlooked the rest of my argument. 

Would you allow someone to change shape into a demon? After all, demons are basically the bodiless souls of dead mortals given physical shape? Golems? Golems are animated by bodiless spirits from the elemental planes. What about creatures that are dead bodies animated by a spirit/soul? 

The dwarf ancestor creature is not bodiless. It has a standard creature entry. It is not incorporeal. It is clearly labeled as an outsider. Alter self lets the character change into an outsider. The fluffy flavor text is not an issue.


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## pawsplay (Aug 23, 2006)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> The dwarf ancestor creature is not bodiless. It has a standard creature entry. It is not incorporeal. It is clearly labeled as an outsider. Alter self lets the character change into an outsider. The fluffy flavor text is not an issue.




What is clearly labeled is that the "take up residence" in a statue, rather than the statue being their actual form. What you label as "fluff text" is, in this case, a description of a creature, which is very pertinent to the "fluff text" in alter self. 



> You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth).




Presumably that does not include the characteristics of a possessed statue, and you have no ability to possess statues. I think the problem is that Dwarf Ancestor is a badly written entry.

Anyway, this is wandering afield. If we want to continue discussing this particular tactic, we should start a new thread.


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## Thanee (Aug 23, 2006)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> And you seem to have overlooked the rest of my argument.




Well, I do see where you are coming from. 

I don't think that it works, though, or should work. While the entry does follow the standard, it's quite clearly said, that the creature is just a spirit inhabiting a body (since the spirit does not appear by itself, it's stats are irrelevant and only the merged stats are given). And I don't think this makes it a valid target for _Alter Self_.

For demons and such, it's really just fluff, their bodies definitely _are_ their bodies, but the dwarven ancestor spirits can pick any (suitable) body, they are not limited to one. The statue is not _their_ body.

It's certainly a border case and could be argued either way. That's merely my opinion on the topic.

Bye
Thanee


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## szilard (Aug 23, 2006)

Take a look at the Dracolexi prestige class in Races of the Dragon. People have discounted it because it doesn't provide full caster progression, however, it does give you a significant number of extra spells known and some bonus magic abilities in the form of draconic words that more than make up for the loss. Coupled with an increase in HD, skills, and bonus feats, it's a very strong class.

Also, definitely take the metamagic specialist option from PHBII.

-Stuart


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## rgard (Aug 23, 2006)

Dragonblade said:
			
		

> So in our Age of Worms game the entire party was wiped out by the Faceless One and his minions. TPK. Unfortunately, we made very RPG centric characters that weren't really optimized for efficient tactics and combat.
> 
> So in turn, our group is making new characters. But this time we are going to make tactically efficient min/maxed badasses. Our new party is basically going to be the Navy SEALs of Greyhawk. Our DM has basically said bring it on and the new party will pick up where the old party left off.
> 
> ...




You may want to check out the Divine Sorcery feat from Dragon 343 (May 2006).  You have to be within one step of your deity's alignment and you add one of your deity's domain spell lists to your list of spells known (doesn't add to spells cast per day.)  Also you get domain power like a cleric does.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Thanee (Aug 23, 2006)

rgard said:
			
		

> You may want to check out the Divine Sorcery feat from Dragon 343 (May 2006).  You have to be within one step of your deity's alignment and you add one of your deity's domain spell lists to your list of spells known (doesn't add to spells cast per day.)  Also you get domain power like a cleric does.




This feat sounds rather crazy. Is there no downside to it?

Even the Bloodline feats from DRAGON, while certainly quite good, do have some downside, and the spell lists are probably chosen rather carefully to not be super-powerful.

When I think of some domains out there, though... and then you also get the domain ability on top (which alone is usually worth a feat by itself)?

Bye
Thanee


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## scarymike (Aug 23, 2006)

I'm surprised nobody mentiond playing a Kobold (races of teh dragon) with the Draconic Rite of passage rituals. (need the web enhancment for the greater version).

With Greater draconic rite of passage, you get +1 to your effective sorc level. Not just caster level, you actual cast as one level higher, get spells as one level higher and spells per day as one level higher. It requires a bit of investment (4 HP loss total, 2 feats [dragonwrought and one from the web enhancment], and 1100 gold). but worth every bit. 

I know you can't go campain specific, but for those that can, the White Dragonspawn template is hard to pass up (dragonlance campain setting).  +7NA, +1 caster level, immunity to cold and more for +1 LA. gotta be Chaotic Evil though.


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## rgard (Aug 23, 2006)

Thanee said:
			
		

> This feat sounds rather crazy. Is there no downside to it?
> 
> Even the Bloodline feats from DRAGON, while certainly quite good, do have some downside, and the spell lists are probably chosen rather carefully to not be super-powerful.
> 
> ...




Hi Thanee,

Just came back to this thread to post a correction.  Of the domain spells you know, you can only chose to have access to one of them a day.  

Also, I think I posted before that this doesn't add to the number of spells per day that you can cast.

Thanks,
Rich


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## Rolzup (Aug 23, 2006)

As someone who hasn't played a lot of sorcerers, I have to ask this:

Barring the DM's disallowing it, why would anyone NOT take _Versatile Spellcaster_?  It's hard to imagine a better feat for a sorcerer, and goes a very long way towards differentiating them from wizards.

Is there a downside I'm not seeing?


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## Jack Simth (Aug 24, 2006)

Rolzup said:
			
		

> As someone who hasn't played a lot of sorcerers, I have to ask this:
> 
> Barring the DM's disallowing it, why would anyone NOT take _Versatile Spellcaster_?  It's hard to imagine a better feat for a sorcerer, and goes a very long way towards differentiating them from wizards.
> 
> Is there a downside I'm not seeing?



Sorcerer's don't get many feats.  A Human Sorcerer 20 has 8 feats, all told.  Which is more valuable - Versatile Spellcaster, or getting into that PrC you always wanted?  Feats are expensive for a Sorcerer, more so than for the wizard (who gets bonus feats).


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## DM_Matt (Aug 24, 2006)

Seconding the Exalted Arcanist.  You sac one level out of five for all 45 exalted spells, two more bonus spells up front, two bonus exalted feats, and the ability to spontaneously and w/o extending casting time apply a couple really useful metamagic feats.  You also will have to buy a highish str, tohugh, beucase many good exalted spells dea yourself str damage, but they are pretty insanely powerful, especially the burn.  Check out Storm of Shards (L6, d6/level to evil (so it will probaby not hit your allies) within 80 radius, ref half AND fort or permenant blindness in the same radius) and Hammer of Rightiousness (L3, d8/L, save for half, crazy with the metamag feat that ups dmg one step but makes it one level higher (which you get to spont cast as part of the prc) as that sets the dmg to 2d6/level, save for half.  It can also do nonlethaL dmg if you want and hits incorporeal.  Casting it drains 1d3 str however. Its basically a fourth-level spell thats disintegrate without an attack roll, far more dmg on a made save, and thats a force effect that hits incorporeal.  All you need is an evil target and the str to burn.


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## Dragonblade (Aug 24, 2006)

Good thoughts guys! Thanks! This will really help!


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## Quartz (Aug 24, 2006)

Ultra-cheese? Take 3 Exalted feats and take the Saint template when you hit L6. You gain no levels until you've worked off your +2 LA, though. But you get CON +2 and CHA +4 and other goodies.


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## moritheil (Aug 27, 2006)

Okay, two things really strike me:

First, cheesy builds are encouraged?  Then everyone's been going about entry into MT all wrong.  Sorc 1/Cloistered Cleric 3 will do it, with Precocious Apprentice eating up a 1st-level slot but providing +2 to spellcraft checks and an additional 2nd-level slot and known 2nd-level spell.  At 5th, you would be a Metamagic Sorc 1/CC 3/MT 1.  What 2nd-level spell should you choose?  Blinding color surge - it's both personal invisibility and blindness wrapped up into one nice spell.

Cloistered Cleric gives you three domains (one of which is fixed), a boost to skill points, and some extra spells on top of the normal cleric list.  Your BAB will suffer by 1, but it's worth it.  Once you get some heavy progression into MT, you'll be unlikely to run out of spell slots.  Thus, you can afford to take Planar Binding, and burn all your 6th-level slots repeatedly calling up elementals.

Yes, elementals.  I second Jack Smith's assessment of Planar Binding as a sorc's best friend, only I don't believe in calling up monsters based on the situation - just call up dozens and dozens of elementals, every day.  Don't bother paying them anything; as a sorc, your charisma will be sufficient to force them to agree to your terms.  One planar binding can call up three elementals, which can be made to serve as an open-ended task for a number of days equal to caster level (the DM may require a specific task - "Guard me for X days" works, as does "follow me and attack my enemies for X days.")  Thus it is a simple matter to have a personal standing army of elementals.  For variety, you can occasionally call a large elemental.

Individually, they don't pack much of a punch, but you should win by sheer numbers.


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## Iku Rex (Aug 27, 2006)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Sorc 1/Cloistered Cleric 3 will do it, with Precocious Apprentice eating up a 1st-level slot but providing +2 to spellcraft checks and an additional 2nd-level slot and known 2nd-level spell.



<sigh> Precocious Apprentice does not give you the ability to cast 2nd level spells, as per the prestige class prerequisite. It lets you cast _one_ second level spell _some of the time_. 

Your interpretation contradicts both the letter and the obvious intent of the feat description. It assumes that the feat is self-contradictory and in need of errata. (The feat description refers several times to what happens when your level [eventually] becomes high enough to allow you to cast 2nd level spells. This would be absurd if you could do that upon first taking the feat.)


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## Thanee (Aug 27, 2006)

Also, that feat isn't even officially useable. 

Bye
Thanee


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