# Would you Swap 3.5e for Exalted?



## Ranger REG (Mar 12, 2008)

From ICv2.com

White Wolf Plans Diversion Program


> *To Convert 'D&D 3.5' Players to 'Exalted'*
> 
> March 10, 2008
> White Wolf has announced a new program, "Graduate your Game," which will offer 2500 gamers the opportunity to swap their D&D 3.5 rulebooks for free copies of the Exalted 2nd Edition Core Book.  The promotion is timed to catch gamers looking for alternatives as D&D makes the switch from 3.5 to 4th Edition.
> ...




So, I want to ask fans of _D&D_ -- any editions or incarnations -- would you take White Wolf's offer?


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## The_Gunslinger658 (Mar 12, 2008)

Whats Exalted?


Scott


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## Ranger REG (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Holst said:
			
		

> Whats Exalted?



_Exalted_ is...


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## AFGNCAAP (Mar 12, 2008)

Nope.

I can possibly see some players going for this (perhaps players of both D&D and Exalted who just want to get rid of their old books), but I really don't think this will do much to promote Exalted.

Besides, I would guess that players who would move on from D&D at all would already have tried another system before now.


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## The_Gunslinger658 (Mar 12, 2008)

Hi-

Thanks for the info Ranger Reg, much appreciated. The game does look pretty awsome, looks like another game I will want to give a go after WFRP.


Scott


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## pogre (Mar 12, 2008)

Probably not, but I have to admit it is a pretty clever marketing ploy.


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## WhatGravitas (Mar 12, 2008)

Also: Direct link to the program on White Wolf Homepage.

Weird thing. But sounds clever.

Though it's probably useless to ask this question on a D&D-centric board! 

Cheers, LT.


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## hong (Mar 12, 2008)

Hilariously, this is (so far) getting a better reception on EN World than on RPGnet.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Mar 12, 2008)

No.  Resounding no.


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## Wormwood (Mar 12, 2008)

Thanks for this thread---I may have missed out otherwise!

Done and done.


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## Asmor (Mar 12, 2008)

Intriguing. If I had a spare PHB, I'd totally take them up on the offer. Heck, I'm considering trolling ebay/amazon for a cheap one just to do it... Wouldn't mind owning a copy of Exalted, though I've no intention of ever playing it (--hate-- White Wolf's system, though love the fluff)


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## The_Gunslinger658 (Mar 12, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Intriguing. If I had a spare PHB, I'd totally take them up on the offer. Heck, I'm considering trolling ebay/amazon for a cheap one just to do it... Wouldn't mind owning a copy of Exalted, though I've no intention of ever playing it (--hate-- White Wolf's system, though love the fluff)




Was thinking the same thing, using their world for a 3.5 D&D campaign would be kinda neat. So I may not get a chance to play exalted, but it would make a nice reference to one more world to add to my D&D cosmos.


Scott


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## HeavenShallBurn (Mar 12, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Intriguing. If I had a spare PHB, I'd totally take them up on the offer. Heck, I'm considering trolling ebay/amazon for a cheap one just to do it... Wouldn't mind owning a copy of Exalted, though I've no intention of ever playing it (--hate-- White Wolf's system, though love the fluff)



If you do find a cheap extra PHB by all means take them up.  The book has some of the best production values I've ever seen, beautiful art on higher quality paper than I've ever seen WoTC use.  And the setting is a thing of beauty like pretty much all the WW lines with great fluff.  Like you the system just leaves me cold.


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## Hunter In Darkness (Mar 12, 2008)

no . but if i had an extra sure good promo ideal though


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid (Mar 12, 2008)

no, but hit me back if they want my 3.0 books...


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## Scribe Ineti (Mar 12, 2008)

Absolutely. As a gamer who has had his 3.5 books collect dust for the past two years, and who has no interest in 4th edition, this looks like a great way to get into a new RPG I've had my eye on for a while. Especially since I doubt the 3.5 books will be worth a darn once 4th ed. comes out.


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## Turjan (Mar 12, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Though it's probably useless to ask this question on a D&D-centric board!



Why? This looks like the perfect place. And there will be enough 3.5 PHBs left from people who wanted to switch to 4e, anyway.


Regarding Exalted, I'm not a big fan. The system is very complicated (in principle ideal for someone coming from 3.5 ), but the setting is very cool.


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## Sound of Azure (Mar 12, 2008)

B-but i just bought the Exalted 2e books....


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## Turjan (Mar 12, 2008)

Just look, here's the diploma: http://download.white-wolf.com/download/download.php?file_id=951

That's hilarious .


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## Herobizkit (Mar 12, 2008)

I wonder if they'd take my 3.0 books, too.  Since the release of the 3.5 SRD, I've had no reason to buy the 3.5 nerfs upgrades.


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## Herobizkit (Mar 12, 2008)

double post.


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## pawsplay (Mar 12, 2008)

Cute. But I already have Exalted. Not a huge fan, but definitely something to check out.


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## Tewligan (Mar 12, 2008)

Sound of Azure said:
			
		

> B-but i just bought the Exalted 2e books....


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## Kishin (Mar 12, 2008)

This is like the RPG equivalent of trading a nice and serviceable Japanese automobile for a Ford Pinto.


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## joela (Mar 12, 2008)

*Exalted for DnD*



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> So, I want to ask fans of _D&D_ -- any editions or incarnations -- would you take White Wolf's offer?




Voted no. Already have the books.


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## Vegepygmy (Mar 12, 2008)

No.  If I wanted to play Exalted, I'd just make the switch to 4E.


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## Aeric (Mar 12, 2008)

Trade a game that I will never play again for a game that I may one day play?  Sure!


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## Stalker0 (Mar 12, 2008)

Probably not, but definitely a very nice marketing ideas. Kudos to them!!


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## Angel Tarragon (Mar 12, 2008)

Not in a million years.


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## WhatGravitas (Mar 12, 2008)

Turjan said:
			
		

> Why? This looks like the perfect place. And there will be enough 3.5 PHBs left from people who wanted to switch to 4e, anyway.
> 
> 
> Regarding Exalted, I'm not a big fan. The system is very complicated (in principle ideal for someone coming from 3.5 ), but the setting is very cool.



*facepalm* - right! Who needs 3.5E books, if he wants to play 4E! I wonder... if I should do that...!

Cheers, LT


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## Ranger REG (Mar 12, 2008)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Though it's probably useless to ask this question on a D&D-centric board!



Which is why I posted the poll question here and not on WotC/Gleemax board.  

That and my paranoid evil twin want to know who would betray us.*   

*I kid. I kid.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Mar 12, 2008)

I voted no. I tried Exalted, and whilst I love the fluff I found the crunch really difficult to play.

The fluff is all about epic battles from rooftop to rooftop, dancing swords clashing in the setting sun, etc etc etc - however, the mechanics are about desperately trying to work how many dice you have to roll, how many you get to parry with...argh. Drove me beserk.

Give me 4e, thanks!


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## Herzog (Mar 12, 2008)

Maybe I'm a bit crazy but.....

I have played using only Core Books for several years, dreading the explosion of Splatbooks I would be buying should I dare to pick some of them up.

However, with 4e around the corner, the release of 3.5 books is drying up. 
And with that, I find myself buying more 3.5 books in the last two months than in the 3 years before that.
(also, the low dollar is helping. Shipping from america to the Netherlands included, it's still cheaper to buy them online than in the local bookstore.....)

My main problem is that some of them are getting hard to obtain. 

I don't see myself switching to 4e any time soon. maybe 5th edition, considering I was playing Rules Cyclopedia D&D before 3rd edition, skipping AD&D entirely.....

so, I voted No.
Although I might check out Exalted at some time. For that matter, I'm also (irregularly) playing GURPS and Call of Chthulhu, so why not?

Herzog


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## glass (Mar 12, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Intriguing. If I had a spare PHB, I'd totally take them up on the offer.



I do have a 'spare' PHB.

Unfortunately, the offer is not open to me. Read my 'yes' vote as 'yes, but...'.


glass.


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## Ao the Overkitty (Mar 12, 2008)

Heh. I already own the Exalted 2e Corebook, but interesting marketing ploy.


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## Kesh (Mar 12, 2008)

I would absolutely do this…

… if I hadn't already taken my 3.5e books to Half Price Books a while back.


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## Psion (Mar 12, 2008)

Would I consider Exalted as an alternative to fantasy gaming in the same vein as 4e? Yep.

Would it replace 3.5 as my main fantasy workhorse? Not a chance in a million years.

I am actually less bothered at their "graduating" ad slogan than the fact that they are willfully trying to take 3.5 books off the secondary market that could be used for future players.


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## Thanee (Mar 12, 2008)

Nope. Not interested in Exalted at all.

Besides, I want to keep my 3.5 books, in case 4E doesn't work out for me. 

Bye
Thanee


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## an_idol_mind (Mar 12, 2008)

Not interested. Exalted and D&D fill two entirely different niches, in my opinion.

I'd be interested in checking out Exalted, but not at the expense of another game I enjoy. The only way I'd be interested in this offer was if I was convinced that 4th edition is a replacement for 3rd edition. As it is, the two editions look like they'll play very differently, in effect making them two separate games for two separate styles of play.


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## Keefe the Thief (Mar 12, 2008)

No, because the books are going to be destroyed. And there´s not a lot things i hate more than books getting destroyed.


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 12, 2008)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> I voted no. I tried Exalted, and whilst I love the fluff I found the crunch really difficult to play.
> 
> The fluff is all about epic battles from rooftop to rooftop, dancing swords clashing in the setting sun, etc etc etc - however, the mechanics are about desperately trying to work how many dice you have to roll, how many you get to parry with...argh. Drove me beserk.
> 
> Give me 4e, thanks!





Tallarn, I'll thank you to get out of my brain.

Now if I knew someone who GMed this system and I could learn under them, it might be a different thing but lacking any of the "controls" that I'm used to in D&D or heck, even Hero where I can see the naked points, it proved a little too much for me although I've heard many a great game has been had with it.


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## Khairn (Mar 12, 2008)

When I'm in the mood to play a high fantasy / high magic / high adventure game where I begin my adventuring career as a powerful hero and advance to the level of fighting the lesser (and greater?) gods themselves, I play Exalted.  Outstanding setting, fun system and overall great game.

I really wish I could take advantage of the offer, but I only have 1 PHB, and I know I'll be using it in the future.


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## DragonLancer (Mar 12, 2008)

Reveille said:
			
		

> Not in a million years.




You beat me to it.


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## Jadeite (Mar 12, 2008)

Keefe the Thief said:
			
		

> No, because the books are going to be destroyed. And there´s not a lot things i hate more than books getting destroyed.



As someone who had to do this from time to time (while hating it) I totally agree with you. I wouldn't even sell my books, l much less destroying them.
I'm also already owning the 2nd Edition Exalted Rulebook. Great setting and system for monumental gaming. Much better suited for heroic duelling than D&D, but the options for dungeoncrawling and normal adventuring are rather limited. I rather see Exalted supplementing D&D than replacing it.
So a "no" from me.


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## green slime (Mar 12, 2008)

Nope.


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## Aus_Snow (Mar 12, 2008)

Nine Hells, no.

And if they don't want those D&D 3.5 books, I'm sure I can track down some people who could find better uses for them. There are _many_ people sticking with the current edition, it seems.


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## Celebrim (Mar 12, 2008)

Not a chance.

I might (conceptually) swap 4e for Exalted though.

Seems like a more even trade.


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## Derro (Mar 12, 2008)

Psion said:
			
		

> I am actually less bothered at their "graduating" ad slogan than the fact that they are willfully trying to take 3.5 books off the secondary market that could be used for future players.




Yeah, yeah. What he said. 

I buy probably 75% of my books used or out of the bargain bin. I wonder if this will affect my supply lines for all the 3.x I was gonna snap up once 4e was released. Probably not but still...  White Wolf's cutting my grass, man!

And no I wouldn't switch to Exalted. I find the fluff a little restrictive for the types of fantasy I like to play and the crunch too opaque, like most WW stuff.


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## Davelozzi (Mar 12, 2008)

Nope.  I think it's in bad taste, though at the same time I do find it sort of funny too.


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 12, 2008)

We all pooled our money and scrounged up enough to get one copy.  We are in! I personally want off the D&D merry go round.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 12, 2008)

I wouldn't swap Candyland for Exalted.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> We all pooled our money and scrounged up enough to get one copy.  We are in! I personally want off the D&D merry go round.




Dude, you could bankrupt them.  It would be the coup of the century.  Heck, even if you didn't have enough copies still sitting in the warehouse, it'd be worth printing more just to win the war by attrition.


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 12, 2008)

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
			
		

> Dude, you could bankrupt them.  It would be the coup of the century.  Heck, even if you didn't have enough copies still sitting in the warehouse, it'd be worth printing more just to win the war by attrition.




LOL! It's limited to 2500 copies so I doubt it will bankrupt them but it would be funny to offer every gamestore participating a free copy of the PHB for every redemption offer they have received so players don't have to nuke their own books.

Based on the largely negative approval rating I think we'll pass on the idea, why send perfectly good books to the shredder?


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## Woas (Mar 12, 2008)

If it wasn't Exalted I'd trade in my books.


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## Darkwolf71 (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott,
 Maybe you could work out a trade? Swap 2500 core sets for 2500 Exalted books, see which company take a bigger hit. 



Edit: Seriously, since I have the leather copies, I would have considered doing this with my regular books, but that 'destroying of books' thing. *shudder

I'd rather pay money for their book. (Not that I will, but I'd rather that than destruction.)


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## WayneLigon (Mar 12, 2008)

That is an insanely cool idea, but I might pass. I only looked at the Exalted 1E, but I found it perhaps just as complex as D&D if not more so, without adequate explanations as to what was expected with regards to character creation (I think it was a throw-away phrase I happened on that said something like 'We expect everyone will take this Charm', and thought 'wow, maybe you should have told me waaay back in character generation?'. Also, it seemed obvious to me that not all the paths were created equal. 

I understand that they fixed a lof of the problems in 2E. If nothing else it will get me to check out reviews of 2E.


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## dmccoy1693 (Mar 12, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> definitely a very nice marketing ideas. Kudos to them!!



QFT


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## dmccoy1693 (Mar 12, 2008)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> I understand that they fixed a lof of the problems in 2E. If nothing else it will get me to check out reviews of 2E.





I use to play Exalted 1E and 2E.  The game is amazing and 2E is a much better version of the game.  WW went through major pains to make the 1E crunch highly compatable.  The single biggest change is one of scope.  1E was more focused on the small scale (the individual becoming the champion of some); 2E starts out there but allows for much more large scale focus (individual becoming the champion of armies and nations).


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 12, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> Probably not, but definitely a very nice marketing ideas. Kudos to them!!




I disagree. I find it spiteful and a grandstanding attempt to jump on anti D&D (4e) sentiment.

Why ask consumers to destroy an item they paid money for and possibly still enjoy? 

How about just giving away 2500 copies and letting consumers judge the game on it's own merits? If they are confident in their game then they win if consumers switch.

The cost of the promotion is the same to them regardless of the mechanism they use to give away the books.


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## Turjan (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I disagree. I find it spiteful and a grandstanding attempt to jump on anti D&D (4e) sentiment.



This doesn't make sense. Sure, they talk about 4e. But realistically, they will target people who intend to switch to 4e, anyway, because those are the ones who will part with their 3.5 PHBs easily. There's not much harm done in this case.


> Why ask consumers to destroy an item they paid money for and possibly still enjoy?



Well, I still enjoy it, and that's why I won't take them up on their offer.


> The cost of the promotion is the same to them regardless of the mechanism they use to give away the books.



Yes, but this way it's a game. You know the design philosophy: All decisions presented have to be interesting .


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## Hunter In Darkness (Mar 12, 2008)

Well i would not trade the book if it was gonna be destroyed but thats me. some folks my find taking advantage of the anti-4e sentiment underhanded but its there and and only speaking for myself and  15 or so others I know share the same feeling its not gonna go away.So from a company prospective it makes a lot of since to try and take advantage and bring in costumer's from  another company.


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## Stormtower (Mar 12, 2008)

Nope, nope, nope... D&D 3.5 is a lovely, mature system that, lightly houseruled, will serve as my primary venue for homebrew fantasy campaigns for at least the next decade.

Exalted holds no interest, as the WW Storyteller system has always inspired a "meh" from me.


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## dmccoy1693 (Mar 12, 2008)

Turjan said:
			
		

> This doesn't make sense. Sure, they talk about 4e. But realistically, they will target people who intend to switch to 4e, anyway, because those are the ones who will part with their 3.5 PHBs easily. There's not much harm done in this case.




IMO, it sounds like they are targetting those that are unhappy with the fact that their game is no longer going to be supported and that do not like what they hear about 4E.  There is no denying that 3.5 is going to be less suppported now that WotC is walking away from it.  I see it as a bold and brilliant move on their part to actively court those players.  

Am I going to take part in it?  No.  I already own an Exalted 2E core book.


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I disagree. I find it spiteful and a grandstanding attempt to jump on anti D&D (4e) sentiment.
> 
> Why ask consumers to destroy an item they paid money for and possibly still enjoy?
> 
> ...




So what you're saying is that WoTC will be doing an exchange for 2500 people for D&D 4th edition and giving the 3.5 edition books to those who have been unable to afford them or to prision systems or to soldiers or something along those lines?


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## Nifft (Mar 12, 2008)

I loved Exalted 1e, would like the 2nd edition rule book, and get most of my 3.5e rules from the SRD via the web. So maybe. But I think I'd rather donate my 3.5e book to someone who would use it.

Cheers, -- N


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 12, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So what you're saying is that WoTC will be doing an exchange for 2500 people for D&D 4th edition and giving the 3.5 edition books to those who have been unable to afford them or to prision systems or to soldiers or something along those lines?




If I felt we needed to employ such a measure I would certainly consider the idea of a sampling program to give books to players but I would not ask they sacrifice something they own to receive the sample.

I think the idea of sampling is very good and the graduation idea with certificate is clever. They are positioning the product as different and better, that's good branding, even pointing out points of differentiation to D&D or any other system is fine in my book. The product looks good, has it's fans, has won awards, it should stand on those merits alone. 

I resent the notion that players need to sacrifice a personal possession to take advantage . The fact that they are shredding a product I work on is irrelevant to me. It could be a stuffed toy that gets it's head ripped off and I would still find that distasteful. 

For what it is worth, officially we (WOTC and Hasbro) donate literally tons of products to various organizations including needy children and military personnel.  Unofficially many employees donate their company store product points to local schools, charities, cons, clubs, and military personnel. 

As an example here is a story about  Ziggurat Con held in Iraq. WotC employees donated $15,000 in product> Many other game companies donated as well including Kenzer & Co, Steve Jackson, etc.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I disagree. I find it spiteful and a grandstanding attempt to jump on anti D&D (4e) sentiment.
> 
> Why ask consumers to destroy an item they paid money for and possibly still enjoy?



Because you cannot please them all?




			
				Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> How about just giving away 2500 copies and letting consumers judge the game on it's own merits? If they are confident in their game then they win if consumers switch.



But would WotC be willing to do that? Give away 2500 copies of the _D&D_ 3-volume deluxe set?


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 12, 2008)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Because you cannot please them all?





It is easy to say as the big guy we are just getting our undies in a bunch and we should shut up and stop whining but look at it this way:

The promotion essentially says "burn your 3.5 PHB and we'll give you our Exalted book". In fact the mechanic for retailers is here 




> Note: You will need a credit card to place this order. Retailers will be charged a nominal $2 per book to offset shipping costs.
> 
> In the first week of May, all Exalted orders will be shipped to retailers via USPS Media Mail service, well in advance of the actual consumer promotional Graduation Week.
> 
> ...




My main problem as a marketer is that it asks consumer for a sacrifice to get a benefit.




> But would WotC be willing to do that? Give away 2500 copies of the _D&D_ 3-volume deluxe set?





Sure given the right circumstances.


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## Hunter In Darkness (Mar 12, 2008)

since it seems they are destroying books im gonna have to say I would not do this .


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## Darkwolf71 (Mar 12, 2008)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> But would WotC be willing to do that? Give away 2500 copies of the _D&D_ 3-volume deluxe set?



Moot point. White Wolf _is_ giving the books away. They are getting nothing in return except for destroyed 3.5 PHBs. I mean, they aren't even getting them in a condition that would allow second hand resale. This 'promotion' could take place with or with out the PHB swap. They just want a sacrifice.

It's really rather petty.


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## Asmor (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Sure given the right circumstances.




I will happily volunteer for any pilot program where you consider giving out the 4th edition boxed set, or any other product for that matter. 

All due respect to "The Rouse," (sorry, I've just not had a chance yet to use that nickname and it sounds so fun to say [and it is!]) I think this wouldn't work quite so well if you didn't require people to give up something. It serves two big benefits.

First, it provides a barrier of entry. If they just, say, gave away 2500 copies to the first person to email a particular address, then there'd be nothing to stop anyone from emailing them and getting a copy with no intention of ever even looking at the book. By requiring them to turn in their PHB, it ensures that everyone who gets one of the free copies is at least marginally interested in it. It would suck to really want Exalted and not get a free copy because some jackaninny sent away for a free copy just for kicks.

Second, it provides a sense of investment. One of the reasons I've heard for Linux and other FOSS (free open source software) failing to catch on is the fact that it's free. As a result, people don't think it has much value, or something. I also vaguely remember some software or something which the maker would have given away, but he claimed that by charging a nominal fee it invested people in it. Not being a psychologist, I can't really speak to how true this theory is, and not being an economist I can't speak for how wise it is, but there ya go. Someone who's given up their (presumably) beloved PHB to get this weird Exalted book is going to have a desire to read it if for no other reason than the fact that they've invested in it.


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 12, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> I will happily volunteer for any pilot program where you consider giving out the 4th edition boxed set, or any other product for that matter.
> 
> All due respect to "The Rouse," (sorry, I've just not had a chance yet to use that nickname and it sounds so fun to say [and it is!]) I think this wouldn't work quite so well if you didn't require people to give up something. It serves two big benefits.
> 
> ...




So then charge some nominal amount to weed out the jackaninnys, $5 for example. On a $40 dollar book seems like a sweet deal to me and doesn't require me to shred a book I paid $30 for and still has use to me.
a


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## Turjan (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> So then charge some nominal amount to weed out the jackaninnys, $5 for example. On a $40 dollar book seems like a sweet deal to me and doesn't require me to shred a book I paid $30 for and still has use to me.



As I said, the promotion itself is a game. People don't really value free stuff that much. I don't mean some additional freebies to something you bought - you have already expressed your interest by buying the product in the first place. But giving out whole core books for free without making sure that there's actual interest doesn't make sense. Even $5 look somewhat suspicious and make you look desperate.

Which brings me to this promotional game. If you want to be malicious, you can compare it to a contract with the devil: Will you give me your soul for that treasure? It's the treat sitting on the counter, calling you. It's asking you for a decision for what you value more: the old thing you already have, or the new and shiny thing that you know nothing about.

As I said, I want to keep my old book, so that's my decision. But I don't feel outraged by the offer. I like games, especially when they ask for interesting decisions .


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## frankthedm (Mar 12, 2008)

Hey, If WOTC is offering some 4E material for The Exalted 2E corebook, I'll be all in on that!


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 12, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> So then charge some nominal amount to weed out the jackaninnys, $5 for example. On a $40 dollar book seems like a sweet deal to me and doesn't require me to shred a book I paid $30 for and still has use to me.
> a




So will WoTC be doing this?


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## frankthedm (Mar 12, 2008)

The give away is a pretty smart one.

>Get rid of some competition.
>Get their book out there.
>Have the retailer do the work and pay the shipping, in exchange, the retailer gets a decent chance of selling stagnant Exalted splatbookage.


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 13, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> So will WoTC be doing this?




No, not to sound smug but we don't need to.


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## Nifft (Mar 13, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> No, not to sound smug but we don't need to.



 It'd be cool if you did, and then donated the product to schools / soldiers / whatever, and then got a fat tax write off for the full cover price of the books.

Cheers, -- N


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## hong (Mar 13, 2008)

The no.2 guy in the business doing this to the no.1 guy in the business is cheeky. The no.1 guy doing it to the no.2 guy would smack of bullying.


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## GammaPaladin (Mar 13, 2008)

I dunno. I've never had a chance to look over 2E exalted. I _loved_ 1E, but I've heard they did away with my beloved dice pools...

Still, if they'd accept my 3.0 PHB...


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## Treebore (Mar 13, 2008)

Yes. I have the SRD, so I don't really need the book anyways, and Exalted has always looked interesting.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Mar 13, 2008)

joela said:
			
		

> Voted no. Already have the books.




Same.

Brad


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## wingsandsword (Mar 13, 2008)

The thing is, you'd think I'd be a prime candidate for this.  I don't want 4e, I've been a loyal 3.5e customer who has played it regularly since it came out, I haven't played Exalted but I've heard of it, and I already play and know other White Wolf games well (being a big fan of Mage especially, I just wish there was something like the NWoD rules for Mage on top of the OWoD setting/fluff). . .

However, I don't want it.  I don't like destroying books, it's a personal ethical type thing for me.  On top of that, I don't want to stop playing 3.5.  A big reason I don't want 4e is that it appears to be going far from the 3.x and AD&D roots of the game with regards to flavor and play style.  Trading in the game I already like for a game that goes even further away from those roots is not a good deal to me.

Now, if White Wolf was offering some sort of deep-discount program, like was suggested, of the Exalted 2e book for $5 or $10 I might even consider it, because I've heard a lot from people who have liked it and if it was cheap enough I might pick it up and try it and might even play it in addition to D&D, but not as a replacement.

As for the issue of playing a "supported" game, I don't see the appeal really.  I knew people that played AD&D 1e for well over a decade past when it ceased production, I know that older editions of D&D that will never be supported again (barring a radical change of ideology at WotC) have strong followings here, and I realize I don't need support for 3.5.  I've got literally two full bookshelves of 3.x materials and some 2e materials I still use for "fluff".  I've got enough raw D&D materials to game for the rest of my life and not run dry.  Having new books coming out is nice, but I bought only 5 D&D books in the last year, down from the dozen or more I used to buy.

So, it's an interesting marketing ploy by White Wolf (they do have some interesting marketing stunts, I remember the "The Devil Made Me Do It" sale at the end of the old WoD to clear out backstock, selling lots of books for $6.66, I made out like a bandit then), but honestly, I doubt it will really get a lot of people to abandon 3.5 for Exalted instead of 4e who weren't already seriously looking into playing Exalted.


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## Jim Hague (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm with Scott on this one - it's insulting to existing D&D players, implying that they're somehow inferior for playing their game; graduate to a 'real' game, effectively.  That they're asking people to destroy perfectly good books is just plain stupid.  

Mark me as a firm no; and WW just lost my business and that of my gaming group, to boot.


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## Imaro (Mar 13, 2008)

Man I'm all for this, I mean for the past couple of months all I've heard is how much fun I haven't been having with 3.5 from the 4e designers.  Well I don't know if I'm going with 4e and I allready have an Exalted 2e corebook...but could use an extra or two for my players.  I'll keep one of my 3.5 PHB's but the other is getting traded in.  

As far as the whole they should give the books away for free spiel...all I'll say is it's easy to criticize from afar.  Now if you're practicing what you preach, well then I'm much more likely to listen.  The book being destroyed isn't that big a deal for me, since essentially it is a trade and they can do whatever they want (just like anyone else I trade a book to) with that book since it's their book now.


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## Agamon (Mar 13, 2008)

First blush, where do I sign up? 1E Exalted was pretty cool.

But destroy the books?  I rather they went somewhere they'd be used or wanted.  So, nah.


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## pawsplay (Mar 13, 2008)

_However, I don't want it. I don't like destroying books, it's a personal ethical type thing for me. _

I was not aware of that wrinkle. I am opposed to destroying books.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 13, 2008)

The Rouse, as a WoTC henchmen you fail to see the irony in the situation. 

If I decided that I was NOT going to upgrade to 4.0 and I sent in my PHB and decided that Exhalted sucks and I liked DnD better it I would be forced to a) Buy a new 3.5 PHB (if I could find one) or b) Upgrade to 4.0.

That is a win win for you, especially if I was not going to upgrade before frying my PHB.   Hell, as much as you and others would say it's disrespectful, remember, its my book, I could do what ever I want to it since WoTC hasn't placed a disclaimer within the book that binds me to a draconian Terms of Use contract.


Please note, I'm not against the destruction of private property so as long as the property in question is owned by the person who is destroying it or the owner gave permission for it to be destroyed.  Case in point, I thought it was uncool for my mom to have a priest cleanse my CD collection and a handful of fantasy books since they were "evil."  YET, 10 years later I have no qualms in destroying several books and CDs since I decided I that I had no use for them and that they were unworthy for resale.  Was I being disrespectful?  Maybe, but then I tink it is more disrespectful for a store to offer me 10% of the value of the product and then sell it for 35 - 75% of the original price.


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## glass (Mar 13, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> _However, I don't want it. I don't like destroying books, it's a personal ethical type thing for me. _
> 
> I was not aware of that wrinkle. I am opposed to destroying books.



I missed that little detail too; I just assumed they'd end up in the used book trade somehow. Not that it matters to me since the offer isn't available in the UK, but change my hypothetical 'yes' to a hypothetical 'no'!


glass.


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## Set (Mar 13, 2008)

There wasn't an option for 'hell no.'

I *love* Vampire the Masquerade, Mage the Ascencion, Wraith, Kindred of the East, Aberrant, Trinity and Adventure! as well as the Scarred Lands campaign setting, but Exalted was just plain awful.  We suspended a great Aberrant game to play it, and it just sucked.  A team of Exalted sat around whiffing rolls, doing negligible damage and otherwise just sucking.  Worst WW game I've played since Hunter, and terribly disappointing.

Given my complete collections of Trinity, Aberrant, VtM, MtA, WtO, Scarred Lands, etc. books, I'm a huge fan of WW stuff, and I wouldn't give up my *1st edition* D&D stuff for Exalted product.


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## WhatGravitas (Mar 13, 2008)

glass said:
			
		

> I missed that little detail too; I just assumed they'd end up in the used book trade somehow. Not that it matters to me since the offer isn't available in the UK, but change my hypothetical 'yes' to a hypothetical 'no'!



Same here... book burning destroying is bad. And I'm not in the US.

Cheers, LT.


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## Miar (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm not sure I understand all the fuss about book destruction in this context.  Book destruction done in the name of destroying knowledge I have a problem with.  This however is not that.  While it would be nice to see those books get donated somewhere WhiteWolf seems to be doing what most publishers do though under slightly different circumstances.  It is normal policy for books that are unsold/unwanted to be destroyed.  You can see the wiki note about it here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stripped_book

I just did a quick search in regards to Wizards of the Coast doing this and here:

http://www.wizards.com/books/dnd/samples/886220000.pdf

on one of there sample books you can see their policy of doing exactly this.  On page four they talk about their policy regarding stripped books.  If you get one some how it is illegal.   They do this of course to save money because getting all those books that are unsold shipped back would be expensive.  As it would be for WhiteWolf.  

I don't think this book exchange thing ever is necessarily the best way to go about marketing but going on about the evils of book destruction does not make much sense.  
If you do you should apply the same to Wizards as well.


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## Darkwolf71 (Mar 13, 2008)

There is a _huge_ difference between a company disposing of their own excess stock (whether donating them somewhere would be a better option or not is a different topic) and a company destroying their competitors book.


@ Imaro, WW *is* giving the books away for free. They are getting exactly zero reimbursement for the 2e books. They would get the same zero amount without destroying the PHBs.


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## Roman (Mar 13, 2008)

Not a chance! 

1) I like 3.5 edition D&D 
2) The 'offer' is in poor taste 
3) I have no interest in Exalted


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## Engilbrand (Mar 13, 2008)

A quote on the first page got me thinking about 4E and Exalted. I started a thread in the 4E forum about trying to use the Exalted setting to play 4E if anyone is interested.


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## Tetsubo (Mar 13, 2008)

Especially as I already own both.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 13, 2008)

Giving away a book? And not to a personal friend of mine? Or as a present to someone else? And the book is going to be destroyed?

No, probably not.

Picking up Exalted? Maybe. I picked up Monte Cooks World of Darkness, too, and I don't expect to play it soon. Pretty pictures and a good read is enough for me...


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## Zinegata (Mar 13, 2008)

Though I think it's a clever marketing ploy, I don't think Exalted is really that great of a game in terms of both mechanics (which are confusing) and fluff (which is rather disjointed).

I would have preferred it if they offered Scion rather than Exalted.


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## Midknightsun (Mar 13, 2008)

I already have it, so no.  Its not a bad game, I just don't have enough player interest to get them to learn a fairly complicated and very different system.  And I feel a little uneasy about the nature of their promotion.  Granted, it is clever, but very. . . aggressive.


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## Miar (Mar 13, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> There is a _huge_ difference between a company disposing of their own excess stock (whether donating them somewhere would be a better option or not is a different topic) and a company destroying their competitors book.
> 
> 
> @ Imaro, WW *is* giving the books away for free. They are getting exactly zero reimbursement for the 2e books. They would get the same zero amount without destroying the PHBs.





I agree which is why I said it may not be the best marketing decision.  My comments were directed at those just lamenting the burning of books in and of itself.   I also don't really think they thought of it as lets shred 2,500 copies of the PH.  That's not going to make any really difference in the number of PHs around, just remove most of them from dusty bookshelves where there not going to be used.  Those players that would be interested in this are not interested in 3.5 anymore.  Many other players who are moving to 4E will also not be interested in them anymore.  There are probably going to be a lot of used copies floating around.  I'm sure they thought of it as a neat marketing gimick, one that would only attract people who had a real interest in Exalted.  Shipping would probably have been a deal breaker for it so they went with a common practice in the book industry.  It looks bad but I don't think it was intentional (there is nothing to gain, these people probably grew up on D&D  and doubtful don't hate it enough to jump up and down on piles of burning PHs) just bad marketing.


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## pawsplay (Mar 13, 2008)

Set said:
			
		

> Worst WW game I've played since Hunter, and terribly disappointing.




Ouch.


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 13, 2008)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> I'm with Scott on this one - it's insulting to existing D&D players, implying that they're somehow inferior for playing their game; graduate to a 'real' game, effectively.




And yet, hasn't WoTC done a great deal of that with their marketing? Haven't they been showcasing 4e, often in contrast to 3e as superior? 

They've also generated a lot of il-will with the poorly timed cancellation of Dungeon/Dragon and the hugely inferior DDI replacement.

It's probably pretty easy to see how WW could go, "How can we turn that animosity to our potential adventage.



			
				Jim Hague said:
			
		

> That they're asking people to destroy perfectly good books is just plain stupid.




Well, are they asking people to do it or are they going to do it themselves? Heck, I remember in protest one dude put his copy of Nightwing through a shredder because he hated the writing and art. Difference between the two.



			
				Jim Hague said:
			
		

> Mark me as a firm no; and WW just lost my business and that of my gaming group, to boot.




Jim, why must you use your power for evil? Can't you let the gaming group make up it's own mind or are you merely the spokesman?


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## frankthedm (Mar 13, 2008)

Set said:
			
		

> A team of Exalted sat around whiffing rolls, doing negligible damage and otherwise just sucking.  Worst WW game I've played since Hunter, and terribly disappointing.



What was your opposition? Deathknights and other signifigant foes will often bring in the minimum damage rules. Saw it in the group's test combat and i did not like it.


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## Asmor (Mar 13, 2008)

I'm truly puzzled about everyone's reaction to the idea of destroying the books. I was raised to treat all books as holy... I won't even write or highlight in my textbooks. But for some reason, this just doesn't bother me at all.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you all for feeling so strongly about it... Heck, maybe there's something wrong with me, because it seems like I should be against it. But I'm not.


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## pawsplay (Mar 13, 2008)

It's just that these books might provide pleasure to someone, somewhere. They will never be in print again; the books that exist now are likely all that will ever exist. Once they are gone, they are gone. You can hope for, at best, a digital scan to PDF.

It seems a sad fate for a very successful roleplaying game. There are obviously more than enough copies out there right now, but on the principle of thing, it bothers me. Even if it wasn't WW's intention, it's kind of the natural result of an aggressive zero-sum gambit. It just seems mean.


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## Imaro (Mar 14, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> There is a _huge_ difference between a company disposing of their own excess stock (whether donating them somewhere would be a better option or not is a different topic) and a company destroying their competitors book.
> 
> 
> @ Imaro, WW *is* giving the books away for free. They are getting exactly zero reimbursement for the 2e books. They would get the same zero amount without destroying the PHBs.




And what I'm saying is, gaming companies do this all the time with books.  What will happen to unsold 3.5 PHB's after 4e is released?  Is WotC going to donate or give away these excess books? Nope, they will be stripped(destroyed) and the covers sent back.  So again I ask why is WW suddenly evil for doing what they want with books they now own since they are essentially bartering for them, but WotC isn't for doing the same thing with books they own?


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## GammaPaladin (Mar 14, 2008)

I'm not a fan of how wasteful corporate culture is with things like that, to be honest. So much perfectly good stuff is simply thrown away and destroyed, while there are poor people who wouldn't be able to afford it out there...


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## pawsplay (Mar 14, 2008)

Imaro said:
			
		

> And what I'm saying is, gaming companies do this all the time with books.  What will happen to unsold 3.5 PHB's after 4e is released?  Is WotC going to donate or give away these excess books? Nope, they will be stripped(destroyed) and the covers sent back.  So again I ask why is WW suddenly evil for doing what they want with books they now own since they are essentially bartering for them, but WotC isn't for doing the same thing with books they own?




Because it's unnecessary. WotC is just trying to protect their margins, WW is encouraging people, basically, to throw gaming books into the trash.

Also, I expect WotC will destroy few books. Most will be liquidated, especially to used book stores.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 14, 2008)

I would do it in a heartbeat (I won a few copies of all the core books), but I also already won Exalted 2E.

This whole "IT'S WRONG TO DESTROY BOOKS!!!111" thing is too precious though

I mean honestly, books get destroyed for all manner of reasons. Retail returns get destroyed constantly as a matter of policy. 

I'd be worried if this was a fundie group doing a public burning as a symbolic "destruction of the  information"...but it just isn't.

Anyway, I've had a lot of trouble actually running Exalted. The power level is too insanely high for me to really challenge the PC's with standard RPG tropes (particularly those with Social Charms).

The most luck I've had with it is transplanting the tropes I've used for Superhero roleplaying onto the medieval asian setting Exalted presents...and even then the results haven't been great.


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## Teflon Billy (Mar 14, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Because it's unnecessary. WotC is just trying to protect their margins, WW is encouraging people, basically, to throw gaming books into the trash.




So..."_businesses protecting margins_" is Ok, but "_doing what you like with your own property_" is not?


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## Darkwolf71 (Mar 14, 2008)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I'd be worried if this was a fundie group doing a public burning as a symbolic "destruction of the  information"...but it just isn't.



So... symbolic "_destruction of the information_" is bad, but symbolic "_destruction of the competition_" is not?


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## Set (Mar 14, 2008)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> What was your opposition? Deathknights and other signifigant foes will often bring in the minimum damage rules. Saw it in the group's test combat and i did not like it.




Zombies.  From the back of the book, I think.  (I wasn't GMing)

My archer shot six arrows over six rounds.  Four of them hit.  One of them did a couple HT of damage.  The rest of the party had finished off the others by then and killed mine as well.  (It also couldn't roll for crap and hadn't hurt me either.)

There were more Exalted (4) than Zombies (3).

In retrospect, it reminds me of the Vampire the Requiem demo at Origins*, where a dog (not a Ghoul dog, just a dog) took out a party of four fledgeling vampires.

Must've been WW's Year of the Gimp PCs, 'cause it seemed like every game the player characters got feebler, and the difficulty number required for a success got higher.

*One of the main reasons I go to Cons is to play games I'd never get to otherwise, and I always try to catch the Demo games, figuring that the designers of said game will have the best idea of how it is supposed to work.  Steve Kenson's demo of Mutants & Masterminds absolutely sold the game to me.  Some other demos have done the exact opposite.  I figure if the guys who make the game can't make it fun, what chance have I?


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## Maggan (Mar 14, 2008)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> So..."_businesses protecting margins_" is Ok, but "_doing what you like with your own property_" is not?




I don't think anyone is saying that people can't do what they like with their property. They are explaining why they themselves will also exercise their right to do what they like with their property by not participating, and giving reasons for that.

/M


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## Mark Hope (Mar 14, 2008)

Given that I can snag a PHB 3.5 off eBay for under a tenner, it seems like a pretty fine deal to me 

However, given my aversion to the buckets-o-dice system that WW use, I'm not likely to give it a go.

It looks like a hoot, though, and hats off to WW for providing decent popcorn fodder, if nothing else, lol.  I'm sure it won't make a blind bit of difference to WotC, but I do enjoy the image of a wolf-pup yapping at their heels.


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## Cam Banks (Mar 14, 2008)

Jim Hague said:
			
		

> I'm with Scott on this one - it's insulting to existing D&D players, implying that they're somehow inferior for playing their game; graduate to a 'real' game, effectively.




Right. Because nobody's ever said this about D&D 3.5 before. Telling them the game they were playing just wasn't working out right and that they should upgrade to a newer, better game would be incredibly insulting!

Cheers,
Cam


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## Mark Hope (Mar 14, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Right. Because nobody's ever said this about D&D 3.5 before. Telling them the game they were playing just wasn't working out right and that they should upgrade to a newer, better game would be incredibly insulting!
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam



QFT.

The irony of it is delicious .


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## Sitara (Mar 14, 2008)

lol

True.

But even then what white-wolf is doing is in quite poor taste. They ar ebeing way too blunt. 

Seriously, I want wotc and white-wolf to get it on, for real. Start a war Rouse, start a war to drive ww out of business for good and let that serve as a lesson to the industry about corporate power!!

Do what TRUMP would do!


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## Callikah (Mar 14, 2008)

at first i was abit undecided about this idea, then as i read mre about this it started to make me lean towards no more, plus as is usual policy for ww the offer is limited to the usa again so im outta luck even if i was interested  i guess ww forgets that alot of potential gamers live outside the us/canada again huh?


meh no problems im not sure i wanna ruin my 3.5 core rules set by letting em destroy the phb anyway.


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## rkwoodard (Mar 14, 2008)

*new respect for Kenzer*

Hi,
  I agree with the naysayers.  

How many promotions has Kenzer done sending out free products to people who simply send an email and promise to read the product and judge it on its own merits.

I may go buy some of their stuff now, just to show I like their way of doing promotions.

RK


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## Ourph (Mar 14, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Because it's unnecessary. WotC is just trying to protect their margins, WW is encouraging people, basically, to throw gaming books into the trash.
> 
> Also, I expect WotC will destroy few books. Most will be liquidated, especially to used book stores.



At the release of 3e, WotC shredded, literally, warehouses full of unsold 2e books; PHBs, MCs, Planescape stuff.  When 4e comes out, I predict WotC will shred every 3.5 product they can get their hands on... hundreds of times more product than WW will cause to be destroyed through their promotion.  Dumping their unpurchased product on the used book market is just going to make customers less likely to upgrade to 4e.  Despite Scott's personal distaste for destroying books, I very much doubt WotC will be all that altruistic when it comes to preserving old books for future generations.


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## Crazy Jerome (Mar 14, 2008)

I don't own 3.5, because 3.0 was good enough for me, until 4E rolled around.  One purchase per major edition is my rule. 

As for Exalted, hmm, how to say this to convey my true feelings in an acceptable manner for this board?  I wouldn't play Exalted if they paid me to take the books.  My time is more valuable than that.  I could do something more entertaining and productive, like stare at the wall.    Part of this feeling is based on the quality of the Exalted mechanics, presentation, etc.  The rest is on the perceived attitude of WW itself--a perception which this marketing stunt reinforces.


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## BadMojo (Mar 14, 2008)

Crazy Jerome said:
			
		

> As for Exalted, hmm, how to say this to convey my true feelings in an acceptable manner for this board?  I wouldn't play Exalted if they paid me to take the books.  My time is more valuable than that.




I don't dislike it that intensely, but the rules certainly didn't live up to the EPIC, "split mountains in half with your giant anime sword" feel the game seems to be going for.  Combat was pretty tedious, tons of dice or not.

If WW is targetting folks who are upset about 4E, why would those same people have any interest in Exalted?  Most of the complaints I've seen about 4E have been about the "over the top" powers, odd names, etc.  That's pretty much the bread and butter of Exalted.


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## JDJblatherings (Mar 14, 2008)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> _Exalted_ is...





ahhh...so exalted is "Metabarons : the age of woe."


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## jdrakeh (Mar 14, 2008)

Undecided. They're both rules heavy-ish games when it comes to tracking minutae and exception-based rules. I don't really care for either in large doses, despite liking both games just fine for short games and one-offs. 

For me, in terms of actual play experience, if forced to choose, I'd probably stick with D&D -- but only because I'm not fan of huge dice pools composed of entirely of an uncommon die type (d10s, in the case of White Wolf). 

Not having to buy (and, subsequently _roll_) absurd numbers of dice that I'll be unlikely to use in any other published RPG that I own is the only real edge that D&D has over Exalted for me. That said, in terms of cash and practicality, it's a pretty big edge


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## Maggan (Mar 14, 2008)

Ourph said:
			
		

> Despite Scott's personal distaste for destroying books, I very much doubt WotC will be all that altruistic when it comes to preserving old books for future generations.




Humour me for a while. Just a thought-experiment.

If, instead of pulping those 3.5 books, imagine if WotC offered to trade them for other games.

And then pupled the other games.

What would the reaction be?

My guess: rage.

/M


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## bento (Mar 14, 2008)

Ourph said:
			
		

> Despite Scott's personal distaste for destroying books, I very much doubt WotC will be all that altruistic when it comes to preserving old books for future generations.



It's called an inventory write off and it helps reduce corporate taxes.  It has nothing to do with altruism and everything to do with profitability.  Without profit, WoTC and Hasbro wouldn't be in business and all those game designers and contributors would be looking for work elsewhere.  The difference in this situation is WW wants to destroy a book from your personal collection, rather than a company disposing of obsolete inventory.


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## Ourph (Mar 14, 2008)

Maggan said:
			
		

> Humour me for a while. Just a thought-experiment.
> 
> If, instead of pulping those 3.5 books, imagine if WotC offered to trade them for other games.
> 
> ...



I concur with your prediction.  Then again, predicting nerd rage in response to change is like predicting the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning.... a pretty safe bet.



			
				bento said:
			
		

> It's called an inventory write off and it helps reduce corporate taxes.  It has nothing to do with altruism and everything to do with profitability.  Without profit, WoTC and Hasbro wouldn't be in business and all those game designers and contributors would be looking for work elsewhere.  The difference in this situation is WW wants to destroy a book from your personal collection, rather than a company disposing of obsolete inventory.



Ummm... I used the word altruism specifically because it applies to someone giving up an advantage (like tax breaks) in order to benefit someone else (like people who buy 2nd hand gamebooks).  I think it applies within the context of what I posted.

Also, WW isn't destroying anything from your book collection.  WW wants to trade books with you.  If you still want your 3.5 PHB, don't make the trade.  What they do with their 3.5 PHB after you choose to make the trade is irrelevant to your personal book collection.  The 3.5 PHB wouldn't be yours anymore even if WW decided to enshrine it in a D&D museum.  WW destroying books they own is no worse than WotC destroying books they own; and as I said before, WotC has already (at the release of 3e and of 3.5) destroyed huge numbers of D&D books and will likely be destroying a lot more once 4e hits the shelves.  Probably many times more than the 2500 WW is proposing.

I think you're getting the idea that I'm calling WotC evil for pulping books.  I'm not.  Pulping books is a good business decision, which I respect.  I just find it hypocritical that people are calling foul on WW for doing something that WotC does to its own books on a regular basis and on a much larger scale.


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## DM_Jeff (Mar 14, 2008)

>>"Retailers must take all D&D 3.5 Player’s Handbooks that are exchanged, tear out the pages, and return the full cover with the consumer forms using the return label provided in the book kit.">> 

White Wolf?

EAT   MY   SHORTS

-DM Jeff


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## Cam Banks (Mar 14, 2008)

bento said:
			
		

> The difference in this situation is WW wants to destroy a book from your personal collection, rather than a company disposing of obsolete inventory.




White Wolf is saying, "Hey, we'll trade your 3.5 PHB for Exalted 2nd." They are not holding a copy of Exalted hostage, demanding a deep and personal sacrifice lest the copy of Exalted somehow wither and die. It is aimed at people who don't want their 3.5 PHB any more. What's the issue?

Cheers,
Cam


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## Gez (Mar 14, 2008)

Does this mean we'd have to swap Order of the Stick for Keychain of Creation, too?


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## bento (Mar 14, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> White Wolf is saying, "Hey, we'll trade your 3.5 PHB for Exalted 2nd." They are not holding a copy of Exalted hostage, demanding a deep and personal sacrifice lest the copy of Exalted somehow wither and die. It is aimed at people who don't want their 3.5 PHB any more. What's the issue?
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam



I meant WoTC destroying inventory, not WW.  I was contrasting WW's deal with Ourph's statement of WoTC destroying excess book inventory once 4E hits the shelves.


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## bento (Mar 14, 2008)

Ourph said:
			
		

> I think you're getting the idea that I'm calling WotC evil for pulping books.  I'm not.  Pulping books is a good business decision, which I respect.  I just find it hypocritical that people are calling foul on WW for doing something that WotC does to its own books on a regular basis and on a much larger scale.



That's cool.  Some people though think that burning any books is evil, and get their shorts in a wad when some inconvienent truths about the book industry arise.  Publishers and booksellers are companies that have to deal with inventory that either won't move, or will hurt the sale of future products.  Destroying inventory is just common business practice.

Personally, WW's offer is making me curious about Exhalted.  I've heard good and bad about the game over on RPGnet, and this kind of offer makes me think I should take a look at it.  I won't be trading in my PHB though.  If I ever get rid of it, it will probably be through a used bookstore, where eventually it will find another home (or get pulped).


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## thedungeondelver (Mar 14, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> White Wolf is saying, "Hey, we'll trade your 3.5 PHB for Exalted 2nd." They are not holding a copy of Exalted hostage, demanding a deep and personal sacrifice lest the copy of Exalted somehow wither and die. It is aimed at people who don't want their 3.5 PHB any more. What's the issue?
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam





No they're not, and you know that's not what they're doing.  What they're doing is saying "Dungeon crawl games are dumb and if you play them you're dumb so don't be dumb give us the dumb rulebooks and you can play a cool game instead."

Jolly Blackburn, on these forums, offered to give away copies of the *HACKMASTER* rules to anyone who asked.

_That's_ giving stuff away.

The "issue" is being treated like some kind of sped whose gaming habits are only acceptable with the magnanimity of White Wolf at the cost of my stinky old (gasp) _*DUNGEONS & DRAGONS*_* books.

You can strip away the wording as you like, at the end of the day, WW are being s about this.

I mean, they gave away *THE TOMB OF FIVE CORNERS* which was a pretty cool gesture as it had quick-play *EXALTED* rules and was a good introduction on how the game worked.  So why not something like that now?  Why, suddenly, are D&D players neanderthals unless they board the Wapanese train?


*=even 3.5 - I'm getting ecumenical regarding *D&D*...hm.  I need to ask my physician about that...


----------



## Asmor (Mar 14, 2008)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> No they're not, and you know that's not what they're doing.  What they're doing is saying "Dungeon crawl games are dumb and if you play them you're dumb so don't be dumb give us the dumb rulebooks and you can play a cool game instead."




Hasn't that been White Wolf's MO for as long as it's existed?


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 14, 2008)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> _That's_ giving stuff away.




I don't think Cam said that WW was giving stuff away. Reading what he posted, he said that they're offering Exalted books in _trade_ for D&D books. Which is, in fact, what they appear to be doing. 



> You can strip away the wording as you like, at the end of the day, WW are being s about this.




You can rewrite the press release in your mind to say something totally different but, at the end of the day, it's still an offer to trade one thing for another.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Mar 14, 2008)

bento said:
			
		

> That's cool.  Some people though think that burning any books is evil, and get their shorts in a wad when some inconvienent truths about the book industry arise.



'Inconvienient truths'? :insert much rolling of eyes:

There is nothing inconvienent about it. If company A needs to purge it's inventory, that fine with me. (maybe not the best choice, but I'm ok with it).

When company B, who happens to be in direct competition with company A, comes along and destroys company A's product, yes, I have issue with that.


----------



## BryonD (Mar 14, 2008)

bento said:
			
		

> The difference in this situation is WW wants to destroy a book from your personal collection, rather than a company disposing of obsolete inventory.



No they don't.  They want to trade you something they have for something you have.
Then they will dispose of their own property as they see fit.
There is nothing wrong with that.

I'm very strongly opposed to "book burning" in the typical sense.  But I think comparing disposal of unwanted material to anti-information/censorship type activities is a disservice to being opposed to censorship.

I'm not going to take this deal because I have zero interest.  But it doesn't bother me.


----------



## BryonD (Mar 14, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> 'Inconvienient truths'? :insert much rolling of eyes:
> 
> There is nothing inconvienent about it. If company A needs to purge it's inventory, that fine with me. (maybe not the best choice, but I'm ok with it).
> 
> When company B, who happens to be in direct competition with company A, comes along and destroys company A's product, yes, I have issue with that.



They are going to destroy property that belongs to some other company?


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## Darkwolf71 (Mar 14, 2008)

BryonD said:
			
		

> They are going to destroy property that belongs to some other company?



Property? Wait, I thought I said product...

Yes, after re-reading my post, I did in fact say product.
I'm not sure where your sarcasim was going, but it took a wrong turn when it tried to put words in my mouth.


----------



## SavageRobby (Mar 14, 2008)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> When company B, who happens to be in direct competition with company A, comes along and destroys company A's product, yes, I have issue with that.




How can you possibly have a problem with that? Thats asinine. At that point in time, the product will physically belong to them, legally acquired. And note, they are acquiring those PHBs on a voluntary basis, from people who obviously aren't going to want them anymore - its not like they're threatening someone's first born if they don't take them up on it.

Put another way, if they bought 2500 PHBs in the store and shredded them, would you have a problem? If I shredded my PHB, would you have a problem with that?


Their offer might be insulting - although I find it no more insulting than Wizards has been about 4x - but it seems like someone really has to WANT to find fault with WW for disposing of the PHBs, once acquired.


----------



## malladin (Mar 14, 2008)

I want my 3.5 so no. That said given how much 4th ed has marketed itself as 'superior' to 3.5 its ironic to see WoTC staff saying WW doing it is insulting. Good offer and made me laugh.


----------



## pawsplay (Mar 14, 2008)

SavageRobby said:
			
		

> How can you possibly have a problem with that? Thats asinine. At that point in time, the product will physically belong to them, legally acquired.




And so what? What if some gazillionaire bought the Mona Lisa and used it for rolling papers? There are other principles guiding my life than what someone is permitted to do under the law.


----------



## Stone Dog (Mar 14, 2008)

Ourph said:
			
		

> At the release of 3e, WotC shredded, literally, warehouses full of unsold 2e books; PHBs, MCs, Planescape stuff.



The WotC retail store I worked at also had to destroy dozens of other books by other companies when it shut down.  I wanted a stack of GURPS books, but they had to be torn apart and sent back for destruction.


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## Scott_Rouse (Mar 14, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Right. Because nobody's ever said this about D&D 3.5 before. Telling them the game they were playing just wasn't working out right and that they should upgrade to a newer, better game would be incredibly insulting!
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam




I don't have a problem with comparative advertising. It is a common practice that we have even used ourselves. I like Coke over Pepsi, maybe Exalted is better. What I said about the promotion was this: 



> If I felt we needed to employ such a measure I would certainly consider the idea of a sampling program to give books to players but I would not ask they sacrifice something they own to receive the sample.
> 
> I think the idea of sampling is very good and the graduation idea with certificate is clever. They are positioning the product as different and better, that's good branding, even pointing out points of differentiation to D&D or any other system is fine in my book. The product looks good, has it's fans, has won awards, it should stand on those merits alone.
> 
> I resent the notion that players need to sacrifice a personal possession to take advantage . The fact that they are shredding a product I work on is irrelevant to me. It could be a stuffed toy that gets it's head ripped off and I would still find that distasteful.



On another note, I don't quite get the "I'll point out the Irony of this". Yes WoTC is making a 4th edition, Exalted is on it's 2nd, etc. Pretty much every RPG in it's life has upgraded to a new edition , it's the nature of the game, and of course every publisher thinks the new edition is better than the last. 

This has nothing to do with the issue I had. I just say if your going to sample a product don't ask for a customer to make some personal sacrifice.


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## SavageRobby (Mar 14, 2008)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> And so what? What if some gazillionaire bought the Mona Lisa and used it for rolling papers? There are other principles guiding my life than what someone is permitted to do under the law.




Hyperbole much?

The Mona Lisa is a _singular_ work of art. The PHB is printed en mass. Certainly you can draw a distinction between the two.


----------



## Scott_Rouse (Mar 14, 2008)

malladin said:
			
		

> I want my 3.5 so no. That said given how much 4th ed has marketed itself as 'superior' to 3.5 its ironic to see WoTC staff saying WW doing it is insulting. Good offer and made me laugh.




Go back and read my post:



> If I felt we needed to employ such a measure I would certainly consider the idea of a sampling program to give books to players but I would not ask they sacrifice something they own to receive the sample.
> 
> I think the idea of sampling is very good and the graduation idea with certificate is clever. They are positioning the product as different and better, that's good branding, even pointing out points of differentiation to D&D or any other system is fine in my book. The product looks good, has it's fans, has won awards, it should stand on those merits alone.
> 
> I resent the notion that players need to sacrifice a personal possession to take advantage . The fact that they are shredding a product I work on is irrelevant to me. It could be a stuffed toy that gets it's head ripped off and I would still find that distasteful.



I not insulted in the least. I just wouldn't offer a sample in this way


----------



## Ruined (Mar 14, 2008)

ON NOES!!







I don't have a problem with this promotion. Yes, they'll be destroying books, but come on, they'll be recycling them.   


Now if only they'd take my 1e Exalted books instead so I can upgrade...


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## SavageRobby (Mar 14, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> On another note, I don't quite get the "I'll point out the Irony of this". Yes WoTC is making a 4th edition, Exalted is on it's 2nd, etc. Pretty much every RPG in it's life has upgraded to a new edition , it's the nature of the game, and of course every publisher thinks the new edition is better than the last.




Scott, the irony is that they (WW) are basically saying "your current game sucks, try this new one instead". Many folks (me included) feel like a lot of the 4e marketing is saying basically the same thing "3x sucks, try 4x instead". In effect, they're using the same ploy as you folks, only upping the stakes a bit with the swap. (Which, as the little guy, they need to do to get the attention. As you've rightly pointed out - you don't need to do that, even if you were so inclined.)

As far as the "sacrificing" part goes, I'd guess you're one of the last folks here who needs a primer on perceived vs. actual value. They're just making sure that anyone that gets what amounts to a freebie on their part is actually going to attach at least some value to it. Of course, how many folks who get real utility from the PHB are actually going to trade it? For those that do, I don't see it as much of a sacrifice.


----------



## Scott_Rouse (Mar 14, 2008)

Destroying books in the book trade should not be compared to a Fahrenheit 451 style of censorship. It is a fact of the business. Like every publishers, WotC destroys product from time to time. In the magazine business it is common to pulp 50% of the production of every printed issue. We do not shred that much product but the fact is we do destroy books. 

It personally makes me sick every time I sign a destruction order. Not because I feel like Guy Montag but because it means I didn't do my job well enough  because A) we released a product that was largely panned by customers and/or B) did a poor job at forecasting the print run. Either way it is money wasted. We give away a lot of that product for charitable and marketing reasons but in the end we can't give it all away and so we recycle it.


----------



## Scott_Rouse (Mar 14, 2008)

SavageRobby said:
			
		

> Scott, the irony is that they (WW) are basically saying "your current game sucks, try this new one instead". Many folks (me included) feel like a lot of the 4e marketing is saying basically the same thing "3x sucks, try 4x instead". In effect, they're using the same ploy as you folks, only upping the stakes a bit with the swap. (Which, as the little guy, they need to do to get the attention. As you've rightly pointed out - you don't need to do that, even if you were so inclined.)




Show me a publisher who has ever upgraded a RPG game system and not touted it has superior to the previous and I'll show you a publisher who is out of business. 

4e is better than 3.5. 3.0. 2nd, AD&D, Basic D&D, OD&D, Chainmail ... there I said it. Are the previous editions terrible? No! But the game evolves in fact it must evolve if the business of publishing it is to remain viable. 

3.5 is a very good system. I enjoyed playing it, but now that I have played 4e, I won't likely go back. We have never said 3.5 sucks, as we have not said any other edition of D&D sucks but we certainly have said it is better. I think the distinction between "better" and "sucks" is huge.

This is the 2nd ed of Exalted we're talking about here too.



> As far as the "sacrificing" part goes, I'd guess you're one of the last folks here who needs a primer on perceived vs. actual value. They're just making sure that anyone that gets what amounts to a freebie on their part is actually going to attach at least some value to it. Of course, how many folks who get real utility from the PHB are actually going to trade it? For those that do, I don't see it as much of a sacrifice.




I'll concede this point. They are not holding a gun to anyone's head on this. The people that take advantage of the promo have likely made the determination that the PHB no longer holds value to them and thus is better traded in for something else that may. have more value.

If it were me I would do it differently and just give away the book but ultimately it is their brand and company and they can do what ever they like.  I am just one guy with an opinion.


----------



## Mark Hope (Mar 14, 2008)

SavageRobby said:
			
		

> Scott, the irony is that they (WW) are basically saying "your current game sucks, try this new one instead". Many folks (me included) feel like a lot of the 4e marketing is saying basically the same thing "3x sucks, try 4x instead". In effect, they're using the same ploy as you folks, only upping the stakes a bit with the swap. (Which, as the little guy, they need to do to get the attention. As you've rightly pointed out - you don't need to do that, even if you were so inclined.)



This. 



> As far as the "sacrificing" part goes, I'd guess you're one of the last folks here who needs a primer on perceived vs. actual value. They're just making sure that anyone that gets what amounts to a freebie on their part is actually going to attach at least some value to it. Of course, how many folks who get real utility from the PHB are actually going to trade it? For those that do, I don't see it as much of a sacrifice.



I also have the feeling that they are targeting this - to some degree - at folks who may be done with 3.5 anyway and ready/thinking about switching to 4e.  "Ditch your old 3.5 PHB and come on over to Exalted instead of 4e."  That seemed to me to be implied in the "play Exalted all summer long instead of waiting until August for some other game."  Although why August is mentioned escapes me.  4e is coming out in June.  Odd.


----------



## Mark Hope (Mar 14, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 3.5 is a very good system. I enjoyed playing it, but now that I have played 4e, I won't likely go back. We have never said 3.5 sucks, as we have not said any other edition of D&D sucks but we certainly have said it is better. I think the distinction between "better" and "sucks" is huge.



Yes it is huge.  In the moderate and restrained world of the internets, however, the perception has arisen that a certain amount of 4e's marketing involved ragging on 3e.  Accurate or not, that's how some folks have seen it.  WW is riffing on that perception, imho, and to good effect.  Is that really ironic?  Maybe not.  It is pretty funny, though .


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 14, 2008)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> I don't dislike it that intensely, but the rules certainly didn't live up to the EPIC, "split mountains in half with your giant anime sword" feel the game seems to be going for.  Combat was pretty tedious, tons of dice or not.




We're actually doing an Exalted game to fill the time between the end of last game and the release of 4e. The promotion, IMO, is a waste since it's telling me "get a book right now!" and then saying "In May". I don't think it's a trade either, it's just a marketing ploy to give out free books to give Exalted a boost.

The fact that it's limited to 2500 is where I'm curious. It'd be neat to find a way to see if response overwhelmed the 2500, or if they have 2000 books remaining...

As for the game itself, the core book is a horribly laid out product. Art overall is decent, but individual pieces vary considerably. The rules are overly convoluted and the writing style seems geared to not convey the information in an easy format.

Sidereals was a much easier read, IMO.



> If WW is targetting folks who are upset about 4E, why would those same people have any interest in Exalted?  Most of the complaints I've seen about 4E have been about the "over the top" powers, odd names, etc.  That's pretty much the bread and butter of Exalted.




If White Wolf wanted to help me, they'd offer to trade for some of THEIR old crap. But, it's a marketing ploy to slap at D&D, so there's that. I don't see a "try Exalted 2, trade in Exalted 1" or "try Exalted 2, it's much better than Demon!".


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## SavageRobby (Mar 14, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> We have never said 3.5 sucks, as we have not said any other edition of D&D sucks but we certainly have said it is better. I think the distinction between "better" and "sucks" is huge.




That may be what you believe, and I'm doubly sure that is the official corporate line - but there are a rather large number of folks who have read statements/blogs/articles from various WotC personnel much, _much_ differently. (And I'd assume that most are people smart enough to grock the difference between "better" and "sucks".) 

The unfortunate part (well, for your company anyways) is that a fair number of those folks are people who would have been inclined towards 4x, but have been turned off by the "3x sucks, 4x is so much better" negative press. 


I'm happy to agree to disagree here. You may think your guys have never said anything remotely like "3x sucks", and thats fine. (Heck, I'd imagine that even if you suspected they did, your job would preclude you from saying so publicly - but that is rampant and completely unfounded speculation on my part.) I'm not trying to convince you either way. You asked about the irony, and I did my best to explain why people have said.


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## Devin Parker (Mar 14, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> thedungeondelver said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Pretty much.  I like WW's games well enough, but their "Hipper-Than-Thou" posturing is really tiresome, especially ten years + down the road.  Gamers are gamers.

As for the offer itself, I voted 'No'.  If they were just _giving_ the books away, I'd be interested, because: hey, free gamebook!  I'd be interested in looking it over and giving it a try, even though I'm not into the _anime_-style Cleave A Mountain With Your Giant Sword thing.  So, asking me to sacrifice something in my library in order to get a copy of it won't sell me.

Even if it _does_ suddenly transform me from a Geek into _Super Saiyan Socially Superior RPG Geek Zeta!_


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 14, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 4e is better than 3.5. 3.0. 2nd, AD&D, Basic D&D, OD&D, Chainmail ... there I said it.
> 
> <SNIP>.
> 
> 3.5 is a very good system. I enjoyed playing it, but now that I have played 4e, I won't likely go back. We have never said 3.5 sucks, as we have not said any other edition of D&D sucks but we certainly have said it is better. I think the distinction between "better" and "sucks" is huge.




If 3.5 is a good system and 3.5 doesn't suck, then why do you insisted that you not likely going to go back to using ever again (even for the sake of laughs and nostalgia)?  Is it because officially you can not since that might dissuade people from upgrading? 

I understand you are the WoTC rep and you are may not allowed to say that you would play 3.x after 4e is released, but to me many here what you said could easily be taken as "3.x sucks. I will never play it again since 4e is the win. So join use at WoTC and upgrade!"


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 14, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> This has nothing to do with the issue I had. I just say if your going to sample a product don't ask for a customer to make some personal sacrifice.




Except that this isn't a product sample in that it's an incomplete 'taster' of some kind, akin to the dixie cup full of soda in a Coke taste test.  It's a complete product being offered. A 100% playable game. Also, it's worth pointing out that the trade old X for new Y has been used in hundreds of radio station promotions over the years. I can notably recall one where if you traded in your old Station X t-shirt, you got a new Station Y t-shirt -- and you got to see the DJ soak your old t-shirt in gasoline, after which he torched it in a giant oil-drum.


----------



## Maggan (Mar 14, 2008)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Except that this isn't a product sample in that it's an incomplete 'taster' of some kind, akin to the dixie cup full of soda in a Coke taste test.  It's a complete product being offered. A 100% playable game. Also, it's worth pointing out that the trade old X for new Y has been used in hundreds of radio station promotions over the years. I can notably recall one where if you traded in your old Station X t-shirt, you got a new Station Y t-shirt -- and you got to see the DJ soak your old t-shirt in gasoline, after which he torched it in a giant oil-drum.




Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that everyone in the whole world has to be prepared to do the same with their products, or their marketing. There are plenty of marketing stunts that I abhor. Just because someone else are doing them, and are in their right to do so, doesn't mean that I have to accept that as good marketing for me and my products.

/M


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## jdrakeh (Mar 14, 2008)

Maggan said:
			
		

> Maybe so, but that doesn't mean that everyone in the whole world has to be prepared to do the same with their products, or their marketing.




No. Luckily I never stated or implied such a thing. I only stated that the practice is not uncommon and the product being offered is not some kind of a crippleware sampler. There are a lot of people making assertions (rather pointed and nasty assertions) to the contrary. In short, there are a lot of mountains being built out of molehills here.


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## diaglo (Mar 14, 2008)

nah. i'm gonna let them collect dust in my collection.


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## diaglo (Mar 14, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 4e is better than 3.5. 3.0. 2nd, AD&D, Basic D&D, OD&D, Chainmail ... there I said it. Are the previous editions terrible? No! But the game evolves in fact it must evolve if the business of publishing it is to remain viable.



i think you are paraphrasing me incorrectly.

it should read OD&D(1974) is the only true game. All the other editions are just poor imitations of the real thing.

edit: it has been so long i even miswrote it.


----------



## GammaPaladin (Mar 14, 2008)

> This whole "IT'S WRONG TO DESTROY BOOKS!!!111" thing is too precious though
> 
> I mean honestly, books get destroyed for all manner of reasons. Retail returns get destroyed constantly as a matter of policy.



Yeah, I'm not happy about that either. Personally I don't think corporations should be allowed to just destroy things like that, they should have to donate them or something. Seriously, it's just... _wasteful_, and I totally disagree with (Hate, even) the wastefulness in our society.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 15, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> If 3.5 is a good system and 3.5 doesn't suck, then why do you insisted that you not likely going to go back to using ever again (even for the sake of laughs and nostalgia)?  Is it because officially you can not since that might dissuade people from upgrading?




So there's no way he can actually feel anything, right? Anything he says has no meaning except as his position dictates, so why reply to it with such a question? I don't play 1e or 2e, and won't. I find it perfectly reasonable to say you won't replay an older edition, just as I don't mind if someone says they will.


----------



## Scott_Rouse (Mar 15, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> If 3.5 is a good system and 3.5 doesn't suck, then why do you insisted that you not likely going to go back to using ever again (even for the sake of laughs and nostalgia)?  Is it because officially you can not since that might dissuade people from upgrading?
> 
> I understand you are the WoTC rep and you are may not allowed to say that you would play 3.x after 4e is released, but to me many here what you said could easily be taken as "3.x sucks. I will never play it again since 4e is the win. So join use at WoTC and upgrade!"




I am saying I like 4e better and I have no reason to go back and play 3.5. If I want to get nostalgic I'll go play AD&D or Gamma World.


----------



## Aus_Snow (Mar 15, 2008)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> What they're doing is saying "Dungeon crawl games are dumb and if you play them you're dumb so don't be dumb give us the dumb rulebooks and you can play a cool game instead."



What they're doing is a thing that they have done, collectively as a company, so many times I've lost count (being the poor, dumb long-term D&Ding shmuck I is.) This thing I refer to is them marketing products with tongue firmly in cheek. Very firmly indeed. Exploiting geek and gamer culture cliches and stereotypes for all they're worth? Check.

Hm. . . sounds a lot like some of the marketing by WotC. And other companies. In fact, Kenzer & Co. (re: your Hackmaster comparison) made/makes a living largely off doing likewise, in their own ways. Yeesh, even the name of that RPG, for starters.

It's a pretty cute method that WW has adopted here. I only wish that the D&D books could be distributed to some people who might get some use out of them.


----------



## BadMojo (Mar 15, 2008)

I wonder if White Wolf would be able to send me a copy of Aberrant in exchange for my crappy old Exalted 1st edition.  I never got to play that game and always wanted to.

For what it's worth, I'm sure this promotion will be forgotten in a month or two anyway.  I find it more goofy and pretentious than offensive, so I'm not really losing any sleep over it.


----------



## Ranger REG (Mar 15, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I am saying I like 4e better and I have no reason to go back and play 3.5.



I can't really say the same yet. I'm glad to like 3e better and I have no reason to go back and play 2e rules.


----------



## moritheil (Mar 15, 2008)

Judging from PBEM the result is a resounding no:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220335


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## Maggan (Mar 15, 2008)

moritheil said:
			
		

> Judging from PBEM the result is a resounding no:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220335




The beauty of marketing is that even if only 10% takes advantage of the offer, I reckon the campaign itself will already be deemed a sucess on a basic level. Now WW has positioned Exalted as a viable alternative to D&D4, and gotten a lot of people who wouldn't have checked it out before to do so.

Aint marketing a swell thing!

 

/M


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 15, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I am saying I like 4e better and I have no reason to go back and play 3.5. If I want to get nostalgic I'll go play AD&D or Gamma World.





To each their own.   I personally would continue to play 3.x and its derivatives until they stop being fun or until 4e and it's future derivatives (if any will exist beyond d20 Modern subset) proves to be superior 3.x in every aspect. In terms of gaming, I personally never abandon a system unless it proves to be utterly useless for the games I plan on participating in or unless it proves itself to be inferior to another system when applied to a certain goal.  That is why I play True20, D20 Modern (and its derivatives), Mutants and Masterminds, and StarWars along with 3.5e. 

Hell, I would eagerly jump between rules subsets with if a game interests me and if there was a potential for me to find that someone might want to play it.  That is why I snagged a copy MCWOD and was saddened when I later heard that 4e was announced (all of one week later).  Sure, I doubt I would ever play it but if given the chance I would because I think some of that book's takes on the d20 ruleset were interesting, albeit somewhat ironic.

Now if you want to know, I would NOT trade in a copy of my PHB for Exalted ONLY because I already own a copy of that book.  However, if I didn't I would only because since I own a copy of the deluxe PHB and my old PHB is barely holding itself together.


----------



## pawsplay (Mar 15, 2008)

SavageRobby said:
			
		

> Hyperbole much?
> 
> The Mona Lisa is a _singular_ work of art. The PHB is printed en mass. Certainly you can draw a distinction between the two.




It would be hyperbole if I claimed the acts were morally equivalent. Whereas I was simply making an implicit argument via reductio ad absurdum that simply because you own something does not mean you can automatically destroy it with a clear conscience.


----------



## pawsplay (Mar 15, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> If White Wolf wanted to help me, they'd offer to trade for some of THEIR old crap. But, it's a marketing ploy to slap at D&D, so there's that. I don't see a "try Exalted 2, trade in Exalted 1" or "try Exalted 2, it's much better than Demon!".




Yeah. I would totally have traded in my entire Trinity collection for Exalted. Or a chocolate bar.


----------



## Cam Banks (Mar 15, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Show me a publisher who has ever upgraded a RPG game system and not touted it has superior to the previous and I'll show you a publisher who is out of business.




See, now I don't think we have any beef with this, so long as you're admitting you do the same thing yourself and don't get visibly peeved that others (ie WW) are doing the same. And since you say it doesn't bother you folks at all, we're good to go.



> I'll concede this point. They are not holding a gun to anyone's head on this. The people that take advantage of the promo have likely made the determination that the PHB no longer holds value to them and thus is better traded in for something else that may. have more value.




Bingo. And that's why it isn't WW demanding a "personal sacrifice" for a "sample." It's "trade in your old game for a game that we think is better."



> If it were me I would do it differently and just give away the book but ultimately it is their brand and company and they can do what ever they like.  I am just one guy with an opinion.




Well, you're one guy with an opinion who is also the public face for WotC around here, so.  It's not always that easy for folks to separate us as people from us as company employees/reps, which I'm sure you're completely aware of.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## The_Gneech (Mar 15, 2008)

This Thread said:
			
		

> Would you swap your 3.5e core rulebooks for an EXALTED 2nd Edition core rulebook?




Not on your life.

But I _would_ trade every 3.x book I own and promise not only to never say a bad word about 4E but become the most voracious cheerleader you ever saw ... if _Dragon_ and _Dungeon_ came back.

I mean *really* came back. On the newsstands where they belong. Preferably put out by Paizo.

-The Gneech


----------



## Turjan (Mar 15, 2008)

Maggan said:
			
		

> The beauty of marketing is that even if only 10% takes advantage of the offer, I reckon the campaign itself will already be deemed a sucess on a basic level. Now WW has positioned Exalted as a viable alternative to D&D4, and gotten a lot of people who wouldn't have checked it out before to do so.
> 
> Aint marketing a swell thing!



I guess so. Also, it's probably the longest Exalted thread on this forum ever . The game wasn't really much talked about recently anymore.


----------



## thedungeondelver (Mar 15, 2008)

Turjan said:
			
		

> I guess so. Also, it's probably the longest Exalted thread on this forum ever . The game wasn't really much talked about recently anymore.





I wouldn't call this a thread about *EXALTED* _per se_.


----------



## Turjan (Mar 15, 2008)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> I wouldn't call this a thread about *EXALTED* _per se_.



As far as marketing goes, this thread is "EXALTED" enough.


----------



## wingsandsword (Mar 15, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 3.5 is a very good system. I enjoyed playing it, but now that I have played 4e, I won't likely go back. We have never said 3.5 sucks, as we have not said any other edition of D&D sucks but we certainly have said it is better. I think the distinction between "better" and "sucks" is huge.



I had certainly interpreted a portion of the 4e marketing as saying that 3.5 was a bad game system on it's own.  Statements like saying that D&D games that used the Profession skill were probably not fun have lead to that conclusion: that the 4e marketing is based on saying that 3.5 is not fun or a bad game.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 15, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Bingo. And that's why it isn't WW demanding a "personal sacrifice" for a "sample." It's "trade in your old game for a game that we think is better."




I think that's really the sticking point, since they mentioned destroying them rather than doing anything useful with them. It's not really much of a "trade", from the company side.

I wonder if they really think Exalted 2 will be more of a stepping stone from 3.5 though, that seems an odd thing to go to.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 15, 2008)

BadMojo said:
			
		

> I wonder if White Wolf would be able to send me a copy of Aberrant in exchange for my crappy old Exalted 1st edition.  I never got to play that game and always wanted to.
> 
> For what it's worth, I'm sure this promotion will be forgotten in a month or two anyway.  I find it more goofy and pretentious than offensive, so I'm not really losing any sleep over it.





Maybe not a month or two, given that the deal doesn't HAPPEN for two months. You don't get your exalted book until May.

Also, it's telling I suppose that they didn't market this to ENWorld, but to RPGnet and such.


----------



## SSquirrel (Mar 15, 2008)

I found the Exalted 2nd Ed core rulebook dirt cheap at $10 used in a comic book store here in Louisville.  That added to the fact that I'm a packrat who doesn't get rid of books, I wouldn't do it.  Plus, I never bought the 3.5 book, kept using my 3E book heh


----------



## Cam Banks (Mar 15, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I think that's really the sticking point, since they mentioned destroying them rather than doing anything useful with them. It's not really much of a "trade", from the company side.




Well, I suppose you could take your new copy of Exalted 2nd and rip the covers off, too. What does the guy who makes this trade care what WW plans to do with it? If you trade in your old car for a new one, are you horrified when it's taken off to the crusher?

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## MichaelK (Mar 15, 2008)

Not only would I not do this, but I'm tempted to sell my collection of the entire Exalted 2e product line and use the profits to buy some unloved D&D 3.5 books out of sheer bloody-mindedness.

Turn about is fair play after all.

This has me annoyed.


----------



## SSquirrel (Mar 15, 2008)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> The thing is, you'd think I'd be a prime candidate for this.  I don't want 4e, I've been a loyal 3.5e customer who has played it regularly since it came out, I haven't played Exalted but I've heard of it, and I already play and know other White Wolf games well (being a big fan of Mage especially, I just wish there was something like the NWoD rules for Mage on top of the OWoD setting/fluff). . .




Hey I hadn't noticed you were in Lexington.  Just an hour away.  Nifty.  I definitely prefer the OWoD setting and don't see much beneficial change in the transition to NWoD, but that may just be me.  Probably should be in another thread tho heh.  2nd Ed Mage is where it's at for Mage.  Much like Highlander 2, there was no Mage Revised 




			
				pawsplay said:
			
		

> Yeah. I would totally have traded in my entire Trinity collection for Exalted. Or a chocolate bar.





PM me your address.  I'll mail ya a whole bag of candy bars for your old Trinity stuff.  So long as it isn't the d20 version.  Those were atrocious.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 15, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Well, I suppose you could take your new copy of Exalted 2nd and rip the covers off, too. What does the guy who makes this trade care what WW plans to do with it? If you trade in your old car for a new one, are you horrified when it's taken off to the crusher?
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam




Again, from the consumer end, you're trading one book for another, on the business end, they're just giving away a book and requiring the destruction of another. It's two separate things. I think you're looking at it only from the one side.

The Customer gives up a book he no longer wants, then (at some later point, assuming availability doesn't come up short) he gets a different book in trade. Fine, dandy, traded.

From a business standpoint, they're still giving away a book. They're not recouping the loss from the PHB, it's not a trade for WW. They could just as easily have had an essay contest, or some kind of gameday thing, but they went this route.


----------



## Imaro (Mar 15, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Again, from the consumer end, you're trading one book for another, on the business end, they're just giving away a book and requiring the destruction of another. It's two separate things. I think you're looking at it only from the one side.
> 
> The Customer gives up a book he no longer wants, then (at some later point, assuming availability doesn't come up short) he gets a different book in trade. Fine, dandy, traded.
> 
> From a business standpoint, they're still giving away a book. They're not recouping the loss from the PHB, it's not a trade for WW. They could just as easily have had an essay contest, or some kind of gameday thing, but they went this route.




I guess I'm with Cam here...what does it matter?   Should they promote another companies game and increase WotC's customer base by giving these books away...doesn't seem smart.  Should they waste space and money storing them...again not too smart a business move.  They're not giving away a book for free, they are creating perceived value since something is lost to gain it...making it much more likely people will actually read and utilize the Exalted book as opposed to tossing it up on a shelf and forgetting about it.  Thus a higher chance that they will actually gain customers as a result of this.  

I find the uproar about what they do with property(WW fairly bartered for) kind of absurd.  It's their property and they can do what they want with it as long as I get my $40 exalted book for a $30 PHB  I don't care.

SIDE NOTE: Who is suppose to pay for the shipping on all these books that shouldn't be destroyed? FLGS, WW because either way they're now loosing money as opposed to coming out even.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 16, 2008)

Imaro said:
			
		

> I find the uproar about what they do with property(WW fairly bartered for) kind of absurd.  It's their property and they can do what they want with it as long as I get my $40 exalted book for a $30 PHB  I don't care.




Right, it's all about the perception and such. The PHB doesn't matter at all in the equation, so it's not a trade for WW. It's just a marketing ploy. Otherwise, I think we're talking past each other, and there's really no point.




> SIDE NOTE: Who is suppose to pay for the shipping on all these books that shouldn't be destroyed? FLGS, WW because either way they're now loosing money as opposed to coming out even.




If you send it in to White Wolf, you pay shipping for the PHB, then pay WW $5 for shipping. If you do it through the gamestore, they send the covers in and pay $2 for shipping.

They could just let the gamestores keep them/ dispose of them as they want. I guess they're afraid of too many folks gaming the system, but since the number of give-aways is the same, it's not a big deal.

When I was originally linked the deal, I thought it was 5,000 copies and you sent the PHB in, then picked up the Exalted at the gamestore, but not sure if it changed or if I'm misremembering.


----------



## moritheil (Mar 16, 2008)

Maggan said:
			
		

> The beauty of marketing is that even if only 10% takes advantage of the offer, I reckon the campaign itself will already be deemed a sucess on a basic level. Now WW has positioned Exalted as a viable alternative to D&D4, and gotten a lot of people who wouldn't have checked it out before to do so.
> 
> Aint marketing a swell thing!
> 
> ...




Yeah, I'm sure the PR people will pat themselves on the back.  My point is that this is fundamentally a choice that many people have already made, and they have chosen against Exalted (even if they didn't know they were doing so.)


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Mar 16, 2008)

Err ... no.

As it turns out, I'm no longer an RPG gamer.  I'm a D&D player.

Though now that I consider it, I do have some FFE d20 books I'd be willing to give them.


----------



## Shemeska (Mar 16, 2008)

Well, I don't actually own a 3.5 PHB. I still run 3e. I'm rather tempted however to buy a dirt cheap copy of the 3.5PHB as the fraction of the gamer community that digs 4e starts to dump them into the used book market. I won't use it, but I'll happily turn around and turn it in for an Exalted book. I don't have any exposure to the game, but who knows, they might tempt me since I'm not pre-jaded about it (unlike the rather hefty barrier that 4e has to overcome).


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 16, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Well, I suppose you could take your new copy of Exalted 2nd and rip the covers off, too. What does the guy who makes this trade care what WW plans to do with it? If you trade in your old car for a new one, are you horrified when it's taken off to the crusher?
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam




Anybody suggesting that what happens to an object after it is traded somehow makes the preceding and unrelated swapping of said item for another something other than a trade is beyond the point of being swayed by logic and reason. You have entered the realm of Nerd Rage!


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 16, 2008)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Anybody suggesting that what happens to an object after it is traded somehow makes the preceding and unrelated swapping of said item for another something other than a trade is beyond the point of being swayed by logic and reason. You have entered the realm of Nerd Rage!





Nice & dismissive post. The simple fact is, WW is offering up a deal, and as a part of that deal they're requiring the destruction of a PHB. It's all a marketing ploy, and when folks offer their opinion on this marketing ploy as being in bad taste, somehow that's "nerd logic" and worthy of disregarding.

White Wolf will give you a copy of Exalted, all you have to do is give your PHB to someone as a token gesture. They don't want it, it has no value, they're just having themselves a fun little promotion. How is any of this inaccurate? Why is this not logical or reasonable to understand?

The rest is just opinion, and neither of our opinions is more valid than the other.


----------



## SteveC (Mar 16, 2008)

I think this is an interesting idea. I'd consider marketing it like so:

"Think high level D&D combat is ponderous and slow?

Trade in your old D&D books, where you had to play for months to get to that point!

Try Exalted, where you can have it that way from day one!"

Seriously, this is the best smiley I can think of to convey my thoughts on the whole thing:
 :\ 

Is there any crossover or cross marketing between the two games? Maybe I missed that part. Still, I suppose this does give people something to do with their old 3.5 books, which will keep at least some of them from showing up in used bookstores come June.

You have to see the positive in these things.

--Steve


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 16, 2008)

Shall we play devil's advocate?



			
				Wizards of the Coast on Bizzaro World said:
			
		

> March 10, 2008
> *Wizards of the Coast* has announced a new program, "Graduate your Game," which will offer 2500 gamers the opportunity to swap their *Exalted 2nd Edition* core rulebook for free copies of the * Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Players Handbook* Core Book. The promotion is timed to catch gamers looking for alternatives as D&D makes the switch from 3.5 to 4th Edition.
> 
> Retailers will be able to order promotional kits to support the program. Each will include six order forms, four quick-start scenarios, and a promotional poster. Consumers participating in the program will receive their free copy of the * Dungeons and Dragons 4th Edition Players Handbook* and a graduation packet with a free poster and a diploma.




If we knew the fate of the books traded in Bizzaro World was the same as the the fate of the books that were traded in our world, then would this campaign still offend everyone here?  Would this marketing campaign still be considered snide, underhanded, and elitist?  Would this press release be so revolting to DnD players that you would give up the system because of the amount of disrespect it heaps on WW?  Or would you laugh, and say WW deserves it because Exalted sucks?


----------



## moritheil (Mar 16, 2008)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Anybody suggesting that what happens to an object after it is traded somehow makes the preceding and unrelated swapping of said item for another something other than a trade is beyond the point of being swayed by logic and reason. You have entered the realm of Nerd Rage!




No, they simply don't understand basic economic theory.  That doesn't mean they lack the capacity to understand it altogether.



			
				SteveC said:
			
		

> I think this is an interesting idea. I'd consider marketing it like so:
> 
> "Think high level D&D combat is ponderous and slow?
> 
> ...




In all fairness, epic characters require much more bookkeeping in 3.5 than in Exalted - though the fistfuls of dice Exalted demands can be aggravating.


----------



## Cam Banks (Mar 16, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Nice & dismissive post. The simple fact is, WW is offering up a deal, and as a part of that deal they're requiring the destruction of a PHB.




"Give us the PHB that you don't want any more and we will give you a copy of Exalted 2nd."

_That's_ the simple fact. The rest is processing.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## DaveyJones (Mar 16, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> If you trade in your old car for a new one, are you horrified when it's taken off to the crusher?



yes.

but that's only b/c the Mean Green Sex Machine (my old 71 monte carlo) has a lot of memories and can still beat the tar out of most cars on the road. but it sucks at the gas mileage (8mpg) and parts are hard to come by.  

on topic i'm keeping my old stuff.


----------



## Ourph (Mar 16, 2008)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Shall we play devil's advocate?
> 
> If we knew the fate of the books traded in Bizzaro World was the same as the the fate of the books that were traded in our world, then would this campaign still offend everyone here?  Would this marketing campaign still be considered snide, underhanded, and elitist?  Would this press release be so revolting to DnD players that you would give up the system because of the amount of disrespect it heaps on WW?  Or would you laugh, and say WW deserves it because Exalted sucks?



Honestly?  My response would be the same, ie - I laugh at a good, self-deprecating joke and appreciate a clever marketing scheme that will probably garner quite a bit of free press when the online nerd-rage-athon committee gets wind of it, then I click to the next thread.  I fail to see how this is, in any way, a "big deal".  :\


----------



## Piratecat (Mar 16, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Show me a publisher who has ever upgraded a RPG game system and not touted it has superior to the previous and I'll show you a publisher who is out of business.



Well, there's 5th edition Paranoia...

Oh, wait. West End Games is out of business. Never mind.


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 16, 2008)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> West End Games is out of business.




No, it isn't. Not yet. It's still hanging on by a thread if the disappearances of Septimus and Torg 2.0, as well as the lack of progress on the D6 SRD and total lack of forum activity are any indicators. I give it a year or less, barring some surprise infusion of funds.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 16, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> "Give us the PHB that you don't want any more and we will give you a copy of Exalted 2nd."
> 
> _That's_ the simple fact. The rest is processing.
> 
> ...




As I said, we're just talking past each other. I understand what you're saying, but you won't give me the same. The PHB in most cases never reachs WW, and there is no trade value, it's just a promotion requiring a PHB be tossed in the process. The difference is motive, attitude, presentation and such.


----------



## Cam Banks (Mar 16, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> As I said, we're just talking past each other. I understand what you're saying, but you won't give me the same. The PHB in most cases never reachs WW, and there is no trade value, it's just a promotion requiring a PHB be tossed in the process. The difference is motive, attitude, presentation and such.




I suppose what I'm trying to figure out is why you care? If you're one of the people who no longer wants to play 3.5, and you have the option to give it up in place of a copy of Exalted, are you opposed to the terms of that arrangement? It isn't like there's any malice intended. WW isn't demanding anything. They're offering the trade, and whether they get all of the book or not is up to them (and in this case, it's not - they just want proof that you're handing in the book.) Your part of the process is giving up the book. If you don't want to give up the book, you don't get the Exalted rulebook.

If you're not one of the people who wants to hand in a copy of the 3.5 PHB, then that's the end of your involvement. WW isn't interested in switching out a copy of the book with somebody who doesn't want to.

As far as I can tell, the objections are:

1. You're destroying a book! Response: So? You didn't want it any more.
2. This is a marketing stunt! Response: Yes, and?
3. This requires a personal sacrifice! Response: So does trading in your old car. And?

Am I missing anything here?

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 16, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> I suppose what I'm trying to figure out is why you care?




Why do you?
Why are you defending them?

I'll answer for both of us, because this is a discussion forum, and it's a topic of discussion.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 16, 2008)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Well, there's 5th edition Paranoia...
> 
> Oh, wait. West End Games is out of business. Never mind.




WEG is not dead... according to their own rules, they are considered Mortally Wounded.  Give them a few more rounds...




			
				West End Games said:
			
		

> MORTALLY WOUNDED
> (13-15): *A mortally wounded character falls prone and is unconscious. The character can’t do anything until healed *. The character may die - at the end of each round, roll 2D. If the roll is less than the number of rounds that the character has been mortally wounded, the character dies. A mortally wounded character who is incapacitated or mortally wounded again is killed.


----------



## GammaPaladin (Mar 16, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Well, I suppose you could take your new copy of Exalted 2nd and rip the covers off, too. What does the guy who makes this trade care what WW plans to do with it? If you trade in your old car for a new one, are you horrified when it's taken off to the crusher?
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam



Yes, actually. If it still runs, and the dealership were to scrap it I'd be quite upset at the waste of resources.

I'd be somewhat tempted to ask the dealership if they were likely to resell it or scrap it, and if the latter, I'd probably try to sell it to a private party instead.

Or give it away.

Seriously, it's not right to destroy perfectly servicable goods and products when there are people who need them.


----------



## Cam Banks (Mar 17, 2008)

GammaPaladin said:
			
		

> Seriously, it's not right to destroy perfectly servicable goods and products when there are people who need them.




Perhaps the book publishing industry should be encouraging bookstores to hand out stripped books to poor people?

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## Cam Banks (Mar 17, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Why do you?
> Why are you defending them?
> 
> I'll answer for both of us, because this is a discussion forum, and it's a topic of discussion.




Right, but "because we're talking about it" doesn't answer the question. Neither does "well, why are you?"

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## Nifft (Mar 17, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Perhaps the book publishing industry should be encouraging bookstores to hand out stripped books to poor people?



 "Dumpster discount".

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Asmor (Mar 17, 2008)

GammaPaladin said:
			
		

> Seriously, it's not right to destroy perfectly servicable goods and products when there are people who need them.




Just out of curiosity, who _needs_ the Player's Handbook?

It's a luxury item, by any definition.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Mar 17, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, who _needs_ the Player's Handbook?




..... when you could find the 3.5 SRD online for FREEE!!!


4e sadly, will be an other story altogether...


----------



## GammaPaladin (Mar 17, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosity, who _needs_ the Player's Handbook?
> 
> It's a luxury item, by any definition.



Cars are as well. That doesn't mean it's ok to just destroy a working product when there are people who don't have them and could benefit from the use of that resource.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Mar 17, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Right, but "because we're talking about it" doesn't answer the question. Neither does "well, why are you?"
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam




Sure it does. A topic was started about the offer, I tossed in my 2 cents, you did as well. If you think I have some deep emotional attachment to what I've been saying, than I'm not sure what answer you're looking for. "Well, why are you?" is not an answer, sure, but you didn't answer that question.

So "Why do you care?". As I said before, I already have Exalted, this offer doesn't mean anything to me, I'm offering my opinion on it's existence. I don't care about the offer any more than as a point of discussion.

So, why do you feel the need to defend WW?


----------



## Asmor (Mar 17, 2008)

GammaPaladin said:
			
		

> Cars are as well. That doesn't mean it's ok to just destroy a working product when there are people who don't have them and could benefit from the use of that resource.




Cars are not necessarily a luxury item. Living in Peabody, MA, it absolutely is for me. But in more rural places, or perhaps even suburban areas without well-developed public transportation, it's very much a necessity.

As has already been said in this thread, Wizards will destroy far more PHBs than White Wolf ever will. Heck, for that matter, White Wolf will probably end up destroying more copies of Exalted than it gives away.


----------



## Cam Banks (Mar 17, 2008)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> So, why do you feel the need to defend WW?




What I'm doing is asserting that this marketing plan of theirs is not a petty, spiteful attack on our nation's precious resource of Player's Handbooks. Scott Rouse seemed to think it was, or at the very least was concerned that WW was demanding a personal sacrifice. I think that's a stretch.

Cheers,
Cam


----------



## jdrakeh (Mar 17, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> What I'm doing is asserting that this marketing plan of theirs is not a petty, spiteful attack on our nation's precious resource of Player's Handbooks. Scott Rouse seemed to think it was, or at the very least was concerned that WW was demanding a personal sacrifice. I think that's a stretch.
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam





Again, dude, _nerd rage_


----------



## Truth Seeker (Mar 17, 2008)

LOL...the nays and ayes are so funny.

Scott...a suggestion: 400 Limited Signed (One time) Copies of 4E (main core books), from all the staff who worked on it. (if you can too, the playtesters also)

But...must be bought, at regular price.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Mar 17, 2008)

Oh thank you RR, you just made my night...  


			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> From ICv2.com
> 
> White Wolf Plans Diversion Program
> 
> ...


----------



## Korgoth (Mar 17, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> Show me a publisher who has ever upgraded a RPG game system and not touted it has superior to the previous and I'll show you a publisher who is out of business.




Who says 4e is an "upgrade"?  Upgrades are by definition superior, but not everything new is an upgrade of what it replaces.



			
				Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 4e is better than 3.5. 3.0. 2nd, AD&D, Basic D&D, OD&D, Chainmail ... there I said it. Are the previous editions terrible? No! But the game evolves in fact it must evolve if the business of publishing it is to remain viable.




Evolution doesn't always go the right direction.

It's too bad that you think 4e is actually better than OD&D.  3.x certainly is not, and from all indications 4e will be less than 3e.

-----

The WW promotion is an interesting idea, but since it's White Wolf it's probably actually an elaborate pagan sacrifice to bolster somebody's Master's thesis in Literary Criticism.      Now, if I could just trade in my 3.x and WW books for crisp copies of Chainmail, Blackmoor and FFC.


----------



## GammaPaladin (Mar 17, 2008)

Asmor said:
			
		

> Cars are not necessarily a luxury item. Living in Peabody, MA, it absolutely is for me. But in more rural places, or perhaps even suburban areas without well-developed public transportation, it's very much a necessity.
> 
> As has already been said in this thread, Wizards will destroy far more PHBs than White Wolf ever will. Heck, for that matter, White Wolf will probably end up destroying more copies of Exalted than it gives away.



Two wrongs don't make a right.

Or, more appropriately, just because someone else does something ten times worse than what you're doing, it doesn't make something wrong that you're doing any better.

I strongly disapprove of _all_ corporate policies that lead to that kind of waste. I do not condone or support Wizards destroying their own product, and the fact that they destroy more than WW does not change the fact that I don't approve of WW doing it either.

More to the point, if I turn my PHB in for a 2E Exalted, I'm _participating_ in the corporate waste culture, which would be entirely contrary to my values.


----------



## Vayden (Mar 18, 2008)

I probably wouldn't do the offer, but I might pick up Exalted at some point. As others have said, it would be purely for the fluff though. 

(I find their "graduation" gimmick amusing, considering that pretty much my whole group except for one person started out with WW games and graduated to 3.5)


----------



## Jürgen Hubert (Mar 19, 2008)

Whatever you might think of this marketing scheme, in my experience Exalted _is_ a fun game.

And it might also give you a few things to think about for your next high- or epic-level D&D campaigns so that they aren't just "like low-level adventures, only with tougher monsters".


----------



## moritheil (Mar 19, 2008)

GammaPaladin said:
			
		

> Two wrongs don't make a right.
> 
> Or, more appropriately, just because someone else does something ten times worse than what you're doing, it doesn't make something wrong that you're doing any better.
> 
> ...




The real question here is, do more posts about the perceived moral inferiority of a practice that has little impact next to the (virtually unquestioned) more widespread form of it make the discussion more legitimate?   

(If so, hey, I'm contributing!)


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## Woas (Mar 19, 2008)

Oh sweet. I might do this now that Pathfinder RPG has been announced. Is it still going on? I'll even rip the pages out of my PHB myself to help my local game shop owner the trouble as I have no qualms about doing that. Actually its sort of fun!


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## Lord Mhoram (Mar 20, 2008)

Well, I don't play much 3.5 anymore, and we have two 3.5 PHs, and one of them is pretty ratty. I'd trade that in for an Exalted core book.


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## Psion (Mar 20, 2008)

I used to weep that I had no Players Handbook, until I met a man with no SRD.


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## Brennin Magalus (Mar 20, 2008)

Psion said:
			
		

> I used to weep that I had no Players Handbook, until I met a man with no SRD.




LOL!


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## Achan hiArusa (Mar 21, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I am saying I like 4e better and I have no reason to go back and play 3.5. If I want to get nostalgic I'll go play AD&D or Gamma World.




Which edition of GW?  1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, Alternity, or Sword & Sorcery.  They all have their charms (and I have them all, a-hahaha!).  1st is the original, 2nd was the first to be systematic, 3rd took it all and made a wonderful amount of detail, 4th streamlined the game and was the d20 precursor, Alternity was a neat spin on it, and Sword & Sorcery, well it was okay and updated the holocaust to something that made more sense for today's world.

Anyway, I already have Exalted 2nd Edition (I only bought it because I had invested heavily into 1st Edition and I have the corebook and all the fatsplats, though I do have the Scavenger Lands which I won from Justin Achilli in an A-kon trivia game and Scroll of the Monk) and if I gave away my hardback PHB then all I would have is my softback and there would be a hole in my collection since I have the OD&D boxed set, the blue book, the BE sets, the BECMI sets, the Cyclopedia, all the 1st edition hardbacks, all the 2nd edition hardbacks (along with most of the Complete Series, all the Historical Series, most of the FR books, etc.), all the 3.0 books (minus the adventures), and the few 3.5 books corebook and beyond before I got tired of being a D&D completist (though I love my ToB:  Bo9S).


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## dirkformica (Mar 21, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> As far as I can tell, the objections are:
> 
> 1. You're destroying a book! Response: So? You didn't want it any more.
> 2. This is a marketing stunt! Response: Yes, and?
> ...




Looks about right to me.  I say:
1.) Exactly, and both companies will be destroying thousands more in the not too distant future (as has been discussed in the thread.)  I personally don't see a problem with it (although evidently some do, which is their right.)
2.) Yes, and I think it's a very amusing and clever one.  I'd never heard of Exalted, and I checked out their website and have looked into the game, so their marketing has worked to a certain extent.  It seems to have worked on several people in this thread as well.
3.) I don't really think the car analogy or the Mona Lisa analogies are good ones here.  It's just a symbolic, non-monetary barter system.  The symbolic aspect is most important and bolsters their PR stunt, which I still feel is an entertaining one.

One thing additional thing is that WW is more than likely having the books destroyed for more than just the reasons stated (symbolic PR stunt, to reduce their own storage/shipping costs, forcing those costs on the retailers, or by spreading their competitor's brand through donations.)  There is also probably a legal issue.  If a corporation buys up the product of a competitor (and even though this is a barter, there would still probably be a monetary value placed on the items) and then turned around and sold them on the secondary market this could probably raise legal concerns.  Even though WW would now own those products, they could theoretically use them to undermine the intellectual property on the secondary market.  This is pure speculation on my part with zero legal background, but I'm sure WW is just ensuring their is no avenue of legal retaliation if the larger publishing power of WoTC decided to get lititious. 

I'm glad I stumbled on this thread because it's been entertaining.


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## HeinorNY (Mar 21, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> I find it spiteful and a grandstanding attempt to jump on anti D&D (4e) sentiment.



All I know is that it awakened my dormant anti-WW sentiment.


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## escaflowne777 (Mar 21, 2008)

no.

Maybe WW is giving all the DnD books to society's undesirables so that people will associate DnD with.... Wait.... Nevermind.


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