# Cost of Vampiric weapon property?



## SteelDraco (Mar 9, 2012)

What bonus would you call this as a weapon property? I'm thinking it's +3 but I'm not sure. There's only one other +3 bonus, speed, and it's quite powerful. It feels worse to me than Brilliant Energy (most attacks are touch attacks, some foes are immune to the weapon) and better than the various Burst weapons. It's far better for a PC than an NPC, who will be getting fairly limited healing from it.

Compare also to the Vampiric Weapon psychic warrior power from 3.5 and the better healing in PF in general with Channel Energy.

Vampiric
Aura: Moderate necromancy, CL 5th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, vampiric touch, price +3 bonus (???)

This ability may only be added to a melee weapon.

This weapon crackles with black energy. When a vampiric weapon strikes a living creature, the target takes 1d6 points of negative energy damage. The wielder of the weapon heals hit points equal to the negative energy damage taken by the target.


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## Salthorae (Mar 9, 2012)

I'd probably peg it at +2 for a game I was running. 

Only reason for that is as a PC I wouldn't ever buy or upgrade to a weapon that was +1 Vampiric if the total cost was as a +4 weapon (32,000 gp) when I could get a +3 Flaming or something weapon for the same price. 

I as a PC might be willing to do 18,000 gp OTOH for a +1 Weapon that was going to heal me as I hit...

And I think that "might be willing" is the sweet spot for weapon enhancements. You don't want to make it too appealing (i.e. cheap) and not too unappealing for the price either. 

my 2 cp...


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## Crothian (Mar 9, 2012)

Do the hit points gained just heal the character up to the max?  Or do the count as temporary hit points?  What is the limit of additional HP a character can have and how long do they last?  

Depending on how it actually works will help determine what it's plus should be.


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## SteelDraco (Mar 9, 2012)

Crothian said:


> Do the hit points gained just heal the character up to the max?  Or do the count as temporary hit points?  What is the limit of additional HP a character can have and how long do they last?
> 
> Depending on how it actually works will help determine what it's plus should be.




Gah! It's intended to be "heals", not "gains". Dumb error on my part. It doesn't take you above your normal maximum. I'll edit that.


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## N'raac (Mar 9, 2012)

I'd agree with +2.  It's clearly more powerful than, say, Flaming or Frost, but not hugely so.  Less targets with resistance, and the healing is nice.

Now, what happens if he hits an Undead?  Does the circuit reverse?


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## Salthorae (Mar 9, 2012)

if it's based on Negative Energy, I'd say yes. 

If it's based on the type-less damage/energy from Vampiric Touch, then I'd say no and it still heals you regardless of what creature type you're hitting.


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## SteelDraco (Mar 9, 2012)

N'raac said:


> I'd agree with +2.  It's clearly more powerful than, say, Flaming or Frost, but not hugely so.  Less targets with resistance, and the healing is nice.
> 
> Now, what happens if he hits an Undead?  Does the circuit reverse?




Aha! I thought about that!

Undead are healed by negative energy, so you gain nothing - you get the negative energy damage they take, and undead don't take any damage. This also means you don't get healed if the target is under a Death Ward, because they're immune to negative energy damage.


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## frankthedm (Mar 10, 2012)

Would a weapon that healed 1d6 you *every* hit only be a +1 mod? 

Because that plus the fact this deals an energy type that is hard for most creatures to resist and actually *heals* damage rather than granting temp HP make me feel+3 is the lowest it ought to be. 

Getting ANY healing without dipping into the action economy is a HUGE thing, look at the high price of the ring of regeneration.

Here was the one d20 weapon I remember doing anything like this, and that only showed up in the psionics rules.

_*Bodyfeeder*
All feeder weapons have a special ability that functions only upon scoring a successful critical hit. A bodyfeeder weapon grants its wielder temporary hit points equal to the total damage dealt by a successful critical hit. These temporary hit points last for 10 minutes. Thus, if the wielder of a bodyfeeder weapon successfully scores a critical hit while the wielder still enjoys temporary hit points from a previous critical hit, the wielder gains only the better of the two values: either his current number of temporary hit points, or the new influx of temporary hit points, whichever is higher.

Strong psychometabolism; ML 12th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, claws of the vampire; Price +3 bonus._


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## N'raac (Mar 10, 2012)

SteelDraco said:


> Undead are healed by negative energy, so you gain nothing - you get the negative energy damage they take, and undead don't take any damage. This also means you don't get healed if the target is under a Death Ward, because they're immune to negative energy damage.




Given the undead is healed, is the weapon wielder harmed?


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## N'raac (Mar 10, 2012)

While I see the value of the Ring of Regeneration, it heals 1 point every round - that's huge - 10 points a minute; 600 points an hour.  He's also immune to bleeding damage (so he always stabilizes) and can regrow limbs and organs.

That seems a lot more powerful, and valuable, than healing 1d6 for each successful hit on a target who is still alive to take the damage and is not immune to negative energy damage.  Still, I can see a case for +3 rather than +2.  Most of the +2 abilities are pretty situational, working only on a critical or only against certain alignments, creatures, etc. 

I still lean to +2, but I'm not sure I'd pay for the Speed weapon either.


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## Satin Knights (Mar 10, 2012)

The real question is how high do you think you have to raise the price so a summoner doesn't buy an Amulet of Might Fists, +0 Vampiric for his pouncing eidolon.  I am sure the summoner will pay 20,000 for that amulet.  Most will pay 45,000 for it easily.  If you are facing a claw/claw/claw/claw/bite pouncer that is is healing 5d6 and has high AC, forget-about-it!.

There is a reason why it doesn't exist.  And eidolon's are not the only reason.  Druid's tigers or monks would be nasty with this too.


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## SteelDraco (Mar 10, 2012)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Getting ANY healing without dipping into the action economy is a HUGE thing, look at the high price of the ring of regeneration.






Satin Knights said:


> The real question is how high do you think you have to raise the price so a summoner doesn't buy an Amulet of Might Fists, +0 Vampiric for his pouncing eidolon.  I am sure the summoner will pay 20,000 for that amulet.  Most will pay 45,000 for it easily.  If you are facing a claw/claw/claw/claw/bite pouncer that is is healing 5d6 and has high AC, forget-about-it!.
> 
> There is a reason why it doesn't exist.  And eidolon's are not the only reason.  Druid's tigers or monks would be nasty with this too.




These are both really good points. Amulet of Mighty Fists allows it to apply to too many attacks in a round, which makes it overpowered even at +3 or +4. How about... hm.

You could either have it be something that triggers on a critical hit, like Bodyfeeder, or requires an action of some type to activate, or can only work a certain number of times per day. 

Of those, I think I like the idea of requiring an immediate action to activate the best. It would cut down significantly on the impact of multiple attacks, since you'd only get 1d6 healing out of it per turn and eat up your swift action.

A power that triggers on a critical hit could work, but I prefer the control be on the player, rather than requiring luck for the primary ability of the weapon to work. Bodyfeeder is a good thing to look at for price comparison, though.

A certain number of times per day could work, I suppose, but it would just encourage rounds of "nova-ing", where a significant boost of power happens for a limited amount of time. It doesn't do that much to cut down on the power level, just how often it can unbalance things. I don't really like that as a weapon property; I'd rather have something less powerful but more consistent.

How about this? The action economy limits it quite a bit. It's an immediate action rather than a swift so the wielder can use it out of turn, but it still limits them to 1d6 healing per round and uses the swift action.



			
				Revised Version said:
			
		

> Vampiric
> Aura: Moderate necromancy, CL 5th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, vampiric touch, price +2 bonus
> 
> This ability may only be added to a melee weapon.
> ...


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## Satin Knights (Mar 10, 2012)

1) Vampiric Touch gives the caster temporary hit points and you are proposing real hit points with this.

2) With it pumping out all that negative energy, it should require an evil alignment to wield it.

3) As worded, it causes negative energy damage with every hit, but the wielder gets the healing once per round.  Still too strong on an AoMF.

4) Flaming can be blocked with Resist Energy, Protection from Energy, or natural energy resistances of many creatures or casters.  Negative energy can only be blocked by Death Ward, which is a much higher spell only available to divine casters.  

5) The only standard magic item that could protect against it is the Scarab of Protection.  It could only survive 12 strikes before crumbling to dust. Considering iterative attacks, that is 4 rounds vs. a barbarian that could afford the weapon or 2 1/2 rounds against an eidolon before your 38,000 gp protection item crumbles to dust.

Maybe, just maybe, as a +5 weapon ability, but I would still lean towards not available all.


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## meien (Mar 10, 2012)

Pathfinder isn't an exact carry over from 3.5 but if you look in the magic item compendium under weapon properties it has vampiric listed at a +2.  You may just want to carry it over or modify it as you see fit.  But it should at least give you an idea of how to set it.


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## Salthorae (Mar 19, 2012)

I never even cracked the MiC to check for this ability...

It's clean and simple and I like it for a +2 Modifier the way it's written. 

deals an extra 1d6 damage and you heal a like amount. It is not negative energy, it only deals +1d6 instead of the situational "Holy, etc" line that does additional 2d6, but for a fighter it's an awesome property. 

it is totally throw off by the Pathfinder version of Amulet of Mighty fists however. You'd have to rule that it's not available for that weapon probably to maintain some power balance, unless your players are not power gamers and wouldn't take advantage.


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## SteelDraco (Mar 19, 2012)

I think the version I posted in my last post above works fine, even in an AoMF. If it's an immediate action to get the HP, you'll get 1d6 per turn if you hit. 

You could also do free action once per turn if you want to be generous to classes that use a lot of swift/immediate actions. That'd still be OK, I think, as long as the healing is just once per round.

I made it negative energy because I dislike untyped damage unless it's part of a sacrifice effect. I'd have a Vicious weapon and Vampiric Touch deal negative energy damage, too. It works well as a necromantic damage type, and using it isn't always evil - the Inflict spells deal negative energy damage, and they're not Evil spells.


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## akbearfoot (Mar 21, 2012)

I don't really see the big deal with an eidolon having an AoMF with this property.  It doesn't heal the caster.  Isn't there already evolutions that add +d6s of the various energy types?  In Pathfinder its even less of an issue, because the Eidolon is getting hit by the AoE priest heals anyways.

The mob tactics should still be the same....Kill the squishy mage and the eidolon goes 'poof'.  In our Pathfinder game monsters usually take a swing or 2 at the big scary eidolon, then they just turn on the rogue or the paladin with the 2-hander....they are much easier to hit.  The one time our group faced a summoner with his own big scary eidolon, it took us about 2 rounds to realize attacking the eidolon was dumb...and the summoner died one round later when everyone rushed him instead.

Dumb question though....how do you buy a +0 magic item?  Don't all magic items have to be at least +1 before other enhancements can be put on them?  ie. a +0 flaming sword makes no sense at all.   So that means even at +2 you are looking at shelling out for a +3 AoMF.


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## ForeverSlayer (Mar 21, 2012)

I'm not sure if anyone has posted this but here is the official 3rd edition vampiric property.

Vampiric: Any living opponent
struck by a vampiric weapon must
make a Fortitude save (DC 16) or lose
an additional 1d4 hit points,
which are immediately added
to the wielder’s current hit point
total. Any hit points above the wielder’s maximum
are treated as temporary hit points (multiple additions
of temporary hit points don’t stack) and disappear after
1 hour.
Caster Level: 7th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and
Armor, vampiric touch; Market Price: +2 bonus.

There is also a more powerful property in Book of Vile Darkness called Soul Drinking which bestows a negative level. If you crit you drain two levels gain +1d8 temporary hit points and a +2 enhancement bonus to strength that vanishes after 1 hour. No save. This property is the equivalent of a +4 weapon.


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## Salthorae (Mar 21, 2012)

Well the OP is pretty happy with the version that was worked up earlier in the thread, but I'm curious where that property is found? 

If it's a source earlier than Magic Item Compendium, then technically it's trumped by the Vampiric Property from MiC which deals +1d6 and you heal a like amount for +2 Price Modifier.


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## ForeverSlayer (Mar 21, 2012)

Salthorae said:


> Well the OP is pretty happy with the version that was worked up earlier in the thread, but I'm curious where that property is found?
> 
> If it's a source earlier than Magic Item Compendium, then technically it's trumped by the Vampiric Property from MiC which deals +1d6 and you heal a like amount for +2 Price Modifier.




I got that from GhostWalk.


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## ForeverSlayer (Mar 21, 2012)

akbearfoot said:


> I don't really see the big deal with an eidolon having an AoMF with this property.  It doesn't heal the caster.  Isn't there already evolutions that add +d6s of the various energy types?  In Pathfinder its even less of an issue, because the Eidolon is getting hit by the AoE priest heals anyways.
> 
> The mob tactics should still be the same....Kill the squishy mage and the eidolon goes 'poof'.  In our Pathfinder game monsters usually take a swing or 2 at the big scary eidolon, then they just turn on the rogue or the paladin with the 2-hander....they are much easier to hit.  The one time our group faced a summoner with his own big scary eidolon, it took us about 2 rounds to realize attacking the eidolon was dumb...and the summoner died one round later when everyone rushed him instead.
> 
> Dumb question though....how do you buy a +0 magic item?  Don't all magic items have to be at least +1 before other enhancements can be put on them?  ie. a +0 flaming sword makes no sense at all.   So that means even at +2 you are looking at shelling out for a +3 AoMF.




You can't buy a +0 magic item nor can you make one. All magic items have to be at least +1 and anything with a property is going to be considered a +2 in the least.


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## Salthorae (Mar 21, 2012)

ForeverSlayer said:


> You can't buy a +0 magic item nor can you make one. All magic items have to be at least +1 and anything with a property is going to be considered a +2 in the least.




Not the Amulet of Mighty Fists in Pathfinder, they specifically state that you can enhance them with melee weapon special abilities w/o doing +1 Enhancement bonus first. 


			
				PFSRD said:
			
		

> An amulet of mighty fists cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +5. An amulet of mighty fists does not need to have a +1 enhancement bonus to grant a melee weapon special ability.


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## ForeverSlayer (Mar 21, 2012)

Salthorae said:


> Not the Amulet of Mighty Fists in Pathfinder, they specifically state that you can enhance them with melee weapon special abilities w/o doing +1 Enhancement bonus first.




I was actually just talking about weapons. 

Not sure how or why you would try and make an Amulet of Mighty Fists +0.


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## Salthorae (Mar 21, 2012)

It's not that you're making an AoMF +0, rather you're making an AoMF Flaming or AoMF Holy...

Specifically because you can add magical properties to it like, Flaming or Holy, or in this case Vampiric and then hand that to the party Monk or to your Summoner's Eidolon or to the Druid's Animal Companion, or the Paladin's Mount...

And now ALL of their natural attacks deal normal damage + whatever special ability rather than normal damage + 1. Hurray for Claw/Claw/Bite all + Construct Bane or Flaming or... you get the idea


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