# Reviews reporting



## Morrus (Feb 20, 2002)

This thread is related to the post in today's news:



> The number of sites writing reviews is getting (in my opinion at least) larger and larger, with new sites springing up all the time. I'd like your opinion on how much effort I should devote to reporting on these reviews - do you read them all? Just a couple? Is this 'reviews' section of the news useful, or is it just filling up space? I have created a thread on my messageboards about the subject - please let me know what you think.




I'll expand a little on this here - it seems like more and more of my time is being spent posting long lists of reviews on the news page.  I know I don't read many of them, and the list of sites posting the things is just getting longer and longer...

I don't mind doing it if you all actually find this useful.  So I'd like to get your opinion - should I continue posting all the reviews I'm aware of, should I limit it to a couple of major sites, should I stop doing it altogether?


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## Claude Raines (Feb 20, 2002)

While in general I think it's useful to put up links to all the sites with reviews, I definitely don't visit all of them. Basically there are just a few sites where I go for my reviews simply because I don't have time to read all the reviews. However, if the review is for something I'm interested in possibly buying and it is reviewed on a site I don't normally visit for reviews, I will go to the new place just to see how it got rated.

Sorry this isn't quite a clear cut answer, but I guess I will visit most english sites that have reviews of products I'm interested in, but only for a few sites (like EN World) might I check out reviews for products that I'm not directly thinking about buying in the next month.


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## EricNoah (Feb 20, 2002)

I personally think it's very important.  It helps keep your site connected to the rest of the community.  

What would be even better is if the 'new and improved' review system for D20 Reviews could include not only reader reviews but also links to external reviews.  Not that those would be weighted or ranked like the reader reviews, but it would still be useful to pull up Green Ronin's entry and see a list of links to external reviews as well as the d20reviews.com user rating and user reviews.


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## Ashy (Feb 20, 2002)

I agree with Eric 100% and would love to see the 'external reviews' option he mentioned.  Not only does it keep the site connected to D20 at large, it also presents a very strong feel of "open mindedness" that many other sites that feature reviews lack.  It is like you are saying - "hey, if you don't like our reviews -try these!"  

IMHO, KEEP EM!


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## johnnype (Feb 20, 2002)

*I'm with Eric on this one*

I have to agree with Eric. Although I don't read all the reviews by any stretch, I have stumbled across some great sites because of your links. 

On the other hand it's become a little anoying to have 10 different sites to visit to get reviews on different products. It seems like you're between a rock and a hard place.


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## Hideously Deformed (Feb 20, 2002)

*Reviews*

The entire reason why I *GO* to EN-World is for the d20reviews.

I base my product purchases (usually) on the rating of the review.

I also enjoy comparing my thoughts on a product with the reviewer's thoughts--sometimes pros/cons about a product that I never thought of is brought out in a review.

Please, the more reviews the better!


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## Galfridus (Feb 20, 2002)

I don't follow many of the review links, but if there's a product I'm interested in I'll follow all of the links I see for it. 

Maybe you could partially automate the process of submitting a review, so it's easier for you to piece them all together?


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## houlette (Feb 20, 2002)

I don't read all the reviews, either, but I definitely read the ones for products I'm interested in, and they strongly influence what I buy.  It's one of the big draws of this site for me.

I like Eric's suggestion of integrating the external reviews into EN World reviews page, too.


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## kingpaul (Feb 20, 2002)

*reviews*

I'll chime in here as well.  I also don't read all of the reviews...either here or the links posted.  BUT, if there's a product that I'm interested in or already own, I'll go to every review of said product to see what others have thought.  With that in mind, I don't think having the announcements on the main page are important, but would be interested in seeing something along the lines of what Eric mentioned...outside links with the product mentioned.


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## sppeterson (Feb 20, 2002)

*Agree with Eric*

I don't read all the reviews either but I'll click on a fair number of them and it's pretty nice knowing that I just need to look at the news section here to get most of the information I want.

If it's getting to be a bear to update all the time could you require that the review sites send you their updates in some format that's easy to just cut and paste (complete with hyperlinks filled in)?


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## Ghostwind (Feb 20, 2002)

As one of the sites who have greatly benefited from being posted on your site, I am all for continuation of posting the reviews.  On each day that that EN World posts an announcement of a review on our site, we see an additional 300-500 hits over and above the regular traffic to the site.  

I believe it is good to post reviews from sites other than those on EN World.  Personally, I find that much of the time I may disagree with the review of a "staffer" and having the option of knowing where to go to read others' reviews of the same book is an asset in helping me determine whether to buy it or not.  By having more than one choice, it also gives me a good feel to what the book is really about rather than relying on the skewd perspective of a lone individual...


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## Zenon (Feb 20, 2002)

Hi Morrus,

I'll chime in and say that posting links to reviews is not a waste of your time. Although I don't read all of them (and I doubt anyone does), I do go look at things I've heard about or am interested in. Having ENWorld be a repository for all these links saves me scads of time in searching for them on my own.

Even better are the links to the outside sites. While Psion writes a good review, I like to see whatseveral people might have to say about a product. Just like a movie review, each reviewer may see things in a different light, so I like comparing what more than one has to say.

If it takes you a lot of time to sort through scoops sent in, get them ready and post them, just let me say that I, for one, appreciate them and the work that goes into putting them on ENWorld's site and vote that you should keep doing it. To me, that work is not wasted.


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## trancejeremy (Feb 20, 2002)

Well, IMHO, the trouble is, a lot of the reviews from other sites sort of , well, suck.

Many of them are vary short. Many also seem to be written from the premise that since the company gave the person a free copy of the game, they'll give it a good review.  Many are basically just ads, trying to get people to buy the product through the site (the ones at At Fantasy.com, for instance).

But at any rate, the majority just aren't very good.

I hate to pick on someone, but take the recent review at d20 Gurus of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil...

http://www.d20gurus.com/reviews/042.shtml

2 paragraphs the reviewer talkes about himself, then the reviewer gives it a extremely superficial review, based on 'Presentation', 'Fun Factor', and 'Orginiality', all extremely subjective things. He never really mentions what's in it. So it's basically worthless.


Another thing - it's sort of redundant linking to Mr. Kohler's reviews on other sites (like RPG.net) when they also appear on this site (as good as his reviews generally are...)


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## jaults (Feb 20, 2002)

*I'm w/ Eric...*

I read the reviews every time they are posted.  This is the first place I look when deciding to buy a product, so links to external reviews are extremely helpful.  Having external reviews linked into the d20Reviews.com DB is a fablous idea...

Jason


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## GameWyrd (Feb 20, 2002)

*Linking to external reviews*

I'm entirely bias since GameWyrd's one of the sites that Morrus kindly takes the time to list new reviews from.

I should like to take this chance to thank him for his hard work.

If there's anyway in which the process can be made less time consuming for him then that would be a bonus. What about automated code where users with a special password can enter the HTML themselves? These can either then be checked and approved or taken in on the basis of the author's previous good record. 

Further up this thread someone's observed that many of the external reviews tend to, well, suck. I think that's bound to happen but one of the advantages of linking to external reviews is that a wider range of reviewing styles is opened up the EN World community.


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## Krellic (Feb 20, 2002)

I'm something of a sad b*stard.  I have enough disposable income to be able to spend too much of it on D&D3E material.  

To this end the reviews are useful, in that they allow me to check up on things that have already intrigued me and make me spend money on things I was not planning to buy...

In fact I think I hate you stop all reviews imediately  

It's about time there were  few more Brit publishers (Go Mongoose go) at least then I could stimulate my own economy...


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## d20Dwarf (Feb 20, 2002)

I follow the review links, not all of them, but quite a few. I would hate to see them go.


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## crunchy_d20_bits (Feb 20, 2002)

I'm 100% in favor of keeping the links to reviews.

It's one of the items that makes ENWorld the be-all clearinghouse for all things D20.


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## AussieDM (Feb 20, 2002)

*Don't scrap the reviews!*

My 2 cents...

The d20 reviews is the only reason I check in daily.

I do follow the links to other sections on occaisions if something interests me, but it is the reviews that have me here.

If you need to put effort in any particular area, put it into the review section.

Cheers,
AussieDM


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## s4dfish (Feb 20, 2002)

*Reviews?  Fabulous*

Currently my favorite thing about the site is the reviews.  I base my purchase on the reviews, when possible.  As far as external reviews, I don't read them.  If they're cross posted I'll take a look, but have more faith in local reviews.

What I'd like to see is more functionality in the reviews page.  The ability to search for products based on personal likes would be nice.  Like if I tend to agree with a particular group of reviewers it'd be nice to search for products based on their ratings.  Also the addition of a simplified review system would be a great addition.  This would allow people who own the book to simply give it a rating without writing a review.  This wouldn't be a replacement to the reviews, but an addition.  Rankings could be posted for the 'popular' opinion and the 'critical' opinion.  Think it'd make for a more comprehensive look at the product.

Even if nothing changes, it'll remain the primary reason I check the site.


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## Alaric_Prympax (Feb 21, 2002)

Like many have said- I don't read all the reviews but I find them useful for the products I want information on, so I say keep them in the news.


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## Flynn (Feb 21, 2002)

*Please Keep The Reviews...*

Morrus,

I personally love the reviews and value them a lot when considering new purchases of d20 material to add to my collection. 

I would also suggest that if you are finding it too much to keep up with, I'd recommend that you might try some form of automated listing process, where people can submit reviews to the site, and they are added at the end of each day's section.

Just a thought,
Flynn


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## Christina (Feb 21, 2002)

*Please Keep the Reviews!*

En World is an excellent place for getting a lot of information in one place. I love the review section! I have to admit that I'm biased because I write reviews for the Open Gaming Exchange, but, first and foremost, I'm a gamer, so I like to see what everyone else says is worth buying! 

If there's anything the OGE can do to make your job easier, please let me know. We certainly appreciate all your hard work!   

Also, those of you who read the OGE's reviews, please let me know if you think we're on the "suck" list. 

Thanks.

Christina Stiles


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## Clint (Feb 21, 2002)

Hi Morrus,

I read plenty of the reviews that you link.

Why not release this burden to the community? Like Eric said above, for each product in the d20reviews database, have an external review list that isn't weighed in. Let the community take care of this stuff, or at least a few volunteers.

Problems solved:
Doesn't take up room on the news page, which will be nice.
Offloads your having to link them all, and people won't send you links of new reviews.

In any case, good luck keeping everyone happy.  And thanks!


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## Morrus (Feb 21, 2002)

Just a couple of quick comments before I go to bed:

1) The new reviews page *is* being designed with facility for links to external reviews.

2) The amount of work's not the problem.  I don't mind doing it at all, as long as people find it useful.  I was just wondering if there was a bit of a reviews-glut situation going on.

I''ll never have anything automated or user-submitted on the front page, mainly because I'm a paranoid nitpicky stick-in-the-mud.  I'd be worried about mispellings, or people forgetting to capitalise the right words and other silly things (not that I'm perfect, but at least when there's a mistake there I know it's *my* mistake).

Thanks for the input, though, everyone.  If there is one small favour I'd ask of those that send me reviews it's that they send the scoop to me in the same format that I post them so that I can cut & paste -- 

xxxx.com has posted reviews of [product] ([publisher]], [product] ([publisher]) and [product] ([publisher]).

... with xxx.com and [product] links.

But it's not a big deal.  That's just me being nitpicky again - I've always been one for standardised formats.


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## d20Gurus.com (Feb 21, 2002)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> I hate to pick on someone, but take the recent review at d20 Gurus of Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil...
> 
> http://www.d20gurus.com/reviews/042.shtml
> 
> 2 paragraphs the reviewer talkes about himself, then the reviewer gives it a extremely superficial review, based on 'Presentation', 'Fun Factor', and 'Orginiality', all extremely subjective things. He never really mentions what's in it. So it's basically worthless.




I am sorry you felt that way about the review. We do our best to review adventures without giving away so much detail that one might find the review to be a spoiler of sorts...

An adventure, at its heart, is not an overly technical product, which can be easily reviewed on the merits of "is it broke" or "how does this affect game mechanics." Adventures are based on how fun they are, and how original the story concepts are.

We also try our best to make our reviews a bit more personable. It is not our goal to tell you just how dense the words are on a page per page basis or how many words are in the table of contents, but how we feel about the product as well. Reviews truly are a personal opinion, and you read Jason's personal opinion of RttToEE.

If you seek a more technically-inclined review, which focuses on the more nitty-gritty aspects of a product, look no further than our reviews of rules expansion products. Its easy to review those without spoiling any surprises for players, and we tend to go into greater detail when reviewing those. An example includes our recent review of The Quintessential Fighter, located here. This is a rules expansion, and we don't hold back in giving massive amounts of detail on the product.

But then again, it might just be your opinion to not like our reviews, and thats fine. We know from experience that it is impossible to please everyone, but as long as one or two people find our review informative and helpful, we've done our job.


But back on topic. Morrus, I want to personally thank you for all you have done for our site thus far; the attention our site recieves when you post the info on the front page is phenominal. I really do hope you keep the reviews section up and running, but I guess you can tell I'm a bit biased 

Kelly Kamm
www.d20gurus.com
Chief Editor, Webmaster


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## Goodreviewsonly (Feb 21, 2002)

I don't post to threads much.

Basically here's how I see it:
EnWorld is being run by people who like D&D and want to provide a  service to their fellow gamers. Their time is limited. Most of the review links recently (used to click through on about half of the links each day until maybe a few weeks ago when it started to get bad)have been terrible. To be OK a review could:
1. Describe what's in the book.
or
2. Give an opinion about the book.

A lot of these places (someone mentioned AtFantasy) just don't. Having watched the situtation recently (and apparently I'm not alone since this thread got started) the natural conclusion is that a number of web pages are basically using the reviews section as a free ad. And they aren't even bothering to write a review!

[edited out a part related to time and effort; apparently its not a time thing. If there were no time or effort required to put this up then I'd be strictly indifferent to the reviews section continuing. I presume Morris and co's time is limited and could probably be better spent elsewhere; given the recent crop of reviews that elsewhere could probably be just about anywhere.]

To answer the second question
The review's section is generally very good. A number of the rarer D&D products aren't included. I've seen the campaign setting by Gygax from Troll Lord here in Tokyo; which means its been out for a while. There's no section for a review here.


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## Donatello (Feb 21, 2002)

I am definately in favor of linking as many reviews as humanly possible.

While I certainly do not read all of them, it's a handy reference to see what's being reviewed and where.  I've read every review of certain products (LI's, as well as our direct competition), and some choice reviews of products I want to purchase.

Bottom Line - I think the review links are a good resource for publishers and consumers alike.  Seeing them go, or even truncated, would be unfortunate.


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## mostrojoe (Feb 21, 2002)

Hello everybody. This is my firts post here 

I have to say that I read almost all of the reviews recalled here. I don't read only the ones about adventures, because I don't buy adventures at all. I make them by myself... and I should say well enough too (sorry for this "humble" quote).

By the way I ever read the reviews about core rulebooks, accessories of every sort, campaign setting and so on 

And that's all.

Ciao a tutti,
Mostro Joe


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## Ghostwind (Feb 21, 2002)

A couple of people have commented on the quality of reviews posted by others.  If I may make a suggestion regarding this, typically every review writer has an email link on the review.  If there is something you like or don't like about the style of the review or even the contents of the review, email that person but please keep it civil and polite.  

As a person who regularly pens a review column for the d20 Magazine Rack, I welcome comments, be they positive or negative, about my reviews.  If there is something you liked about a particular review, great!  Let me know.  If you thought a review sucked, tell me that also.  But tell me why you thought it sucked while you're at it.  It helps me see if I am doing something right and it helps me see if I am doing something wrong.  For instance, I now grade my reviews on the basis of amount of Open Content because I had several requests to add that to my grading criteria.  Believe it or not, most of the serious review sites/columns want to provide you the consumer with the information that will help you make an informed decision on whether to buy the product in question.  

The best way to look at D&D reviews is just like a movie review.  Some folks will think it is great and others think it is the stinker of the year.  Just look at the split reaction on Star Wars Episode One.  Some loved it, some hated it.  Take everything you read with a grain of salt.

Back to the topic on hand, however.  This is one of the strongest reasons why the links to the various reviews should be kept on the main announcement page.  If I am thinking about buying Quintessential Fighter for example, it's nice to be able to read a cross-section of reviews over the course of a couple of weeks to get a feel whether I really want it.  The more information available, the better informed everyone becomes...

Keep up the good work Morrus!!!


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## trancejeremy (Feb 23, 2002)

Well, bear in mind, it's not like I'm a teacher in RPG reviewing at some college. Who am I to crique someone, much less spend all my time telling people how to improve their lousy reviews....

But another example. The so called review of Twilight of Atlantis from RPG United...

It's 10 sentences. 

"New races such as the Bastai cat-warriors and the Atlanteans appear, new prestige classes and 6 new feats to use with them, a whole new approach to magic- (that of the resonance), 10 new spells, and various tables."

Great summary, there. Just what are the classes? Various tables of what? 


"An interesting story, and although the background story is rich on information, it doesn't grow boring on you, and the balance of "what you need to know" and what is merely "page fill" is well kept"

That doesn't even make sense.  

This is a product I'm thinking of buying, yet this review tells me basically nothing. It gives the product a 3 out of 5 because "this product just didn't push any particular buttons on me, so to say."

Now that's a solid reason!

As far as I can tell, all of the reviews on that site are extremely short, extemely vague, and poorly written.  The latter I can excuse because English is apparently not their native language, but there is no excuse for such short reviews. It's not like they have to pay for ink or printing costs....


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## trancejeremy (Feb 23, 2002)

Anyway, my point is, lousy & short reviews should really not be news, but they mostly just waste the time of the reader (not to mention Morrus).  If they're good (and long) reviews, then yes, they should be considered news...


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## Walter_J (Feb 23, 2002)

Hi, Morrus!
Keep the reviews.  If you can automate the process, or in some other way make life easier on yourself, go for it and dont' be afraid to shift some of the work to the news submitters.

What strikes me as odd though, is that no one has submitted their link under the News and Reviews section of your d20 links.  Why would someone who wants traffic to their site NOT want to do that?  Very odd.

Have a good one,
Walter


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