# sorcerers and bonus feats.



## krupintupple (Oct 17, 2008)

is there any particular reason that sorcerers don't get the bonus feats that their wizard counterparts do? would it be overpowering for me as a DM to allow them to take the same, except replacing item creation with something like the various 'heritege' (things like draconic, infernal or celestial, from PHB2 and complete arcane/mage) feats?


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## blargney the second (Oct 17, 2008)

It can't hurt to try...


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## Derro (Oct 17, 2008)

I think the original idea was that the sorcerer's impressive battery of spells per day was the balancing factor between sorcerer and wizard. The sorcerer receives in the area of 50% more spells per day per level than the wizard. That's noteworthy until you consider that the wizard is infinitely more versatile than the sorcerer. Even with the spell retraining ability of the sorcerer the spell arrays just don't compare.

To answer your question, no, it would not be overpowering to give the sorcerer heritage based feats at an equal rate to the wizard. I house-ruled this in a few games and saw no abuse or tip of power in the sorcerer's favor.   

I had a few different generations of this house rule. Sometimes it was a codified series of bonus feats based on the heritage of the sorcerer. I also tried giving the sorcerer bonus spells based on heritage. These were moderately successful although I have since found a much more satisfying method.

I suggest looking at the Pathfinder Beta and what they did to the sorcerer. The class therein has really focused on heritage and given them a lot more depth.


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## Runestar (Oct 17, 2008)

My guess is that wotc severely overestimated the value of being able to spontaneously cast any spell you know, so they overcompensated by stripping away any other class ability the sorc may have had (leaving only the crappy familiar behind). But empirical playtesting has shown that the wizard is much stronger than the sorc, so it shouldn't hurt to give the sorc bonus feats.


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## Kristian Serrano (Oct 17, 2008)

Save-VS-DM has an excellent revised sorcerer that grants bonus feats. You can get a copy of it from the Downloads section of Geek on the Borderlands.

Here's the section explaining the bonus feats.
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*Bonus Feats:* At 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a sorcerer gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, a draconic feat, or a heritage feat. The sorcerer must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.

These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The wizard is not limited to the categories of metamagic feats, draconic feats, or heritage feats when choosing these feats.
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I've personally added reserve feats to that list.


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## Save-vs-DM (Oct 18, 2008)

amaril said:


> I've personally added reserve feats to that list.



This is a very common addition to the bonus feats, though I didn't add them as a default just to differentiate the sorcerer from the wizard a bit more.

One other thing we house ruled for all casters was the ability to cast any cantrips known or memorized at will.   (After doing this we took out Cure Minor Wounds and replaced it with Stabilize).  It mostly helped in the first 1-2 levels, giving the spellcasters a 1d3 ranged attack that was at least magical.


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## Shin Okada (Oct 18, 2008)

It depends on situation and kind of campaign. But I found that with appropriate spells known, Sorcerer is effective enough, or even more effective than Wizard, as it is. Especially if you use metamagic specialist option in PHB II.

I have heard and read many play-report of RHoD campaign (and run that campaign once by myself) and in most cases, Wizards had hard time because of fewer spells per day, lack of on the fly versatility, and dependency on time to write spells on their spellbook or creating items.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 18, 2008)

While I haven't gone quite as far as giving Sorcerers an equal # of bonus feats to the Wizards, I _have_ modified them to give them a bonus Heritage (WotC)/Bloodline (DCv1) feat that is essentially the "reason" why they are innate casters- the blood of their arcanely powerful ancestors gives them innate spellcasting abilities.

My only real problem is that the Heritage Feat trees are deep and give a variety of benefits, whereas the Bloodline Feats are structured more like Domains- adding 1 spell/level to the Sorc's spell list (but without domain powers) and typically have only one additional dependent feat.

So I'm trying to redraft them into a general format that combines both models.


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## Runestar (Oct 19, 2008)

I dunno - I dislike the idea of them getting bonus heritage feats because to me, that just ends up reinforcing the theme that they must be descended from some exotic power, and I hated the way wotc tried to tie just about every sorc to some draconic ancestor.

But that's just me.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 19, 2008)

Runestar said:


> I dunno - I dislike the idea of them getting bonus heritage feats because to me, that just ends up reinforcing the theme that they must be descended from some exotic power, and I hated the way wotc tried to tie just about every sorc to some draconic ancestor.
> 
> But that's just me.




Well, first of all, I actually dock them 1 spell per level.  No worries, though, because it gets replaced with the bonus spell that the bonus DCv1 Bloodline Feats provide.

Second, the Bloodline feats cover a wide variety of ancestries- elementals, celestial, infernal, fey, illithid, undead erm and so forth, including dragons.  IOW, Sorcerers are delivered from being linked to dragons exclusively.

Third, it gives a mechanical justification for their being innately gifted with arcane spellcasting ability.  He can do something normal human(oid)s can do- cast arcane spells without studying to do so- because he's more than human(oid).

The subsequent heritage feats, however, must be taken as normal, if any are taken at all.


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## Jack Simth (Oct 19, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Well, first of all, I actually dock them 1 spell per level.  No worries, though, because it gets replaced with the bonus spell that the bonus DCv1 Bloodline Feats provide.



That is a worry.

See, normally, a Sorcerer picks spells pretty carefully around usefulness.  The DCv1 Heritage feats?  They're chosen primarily around flavor.  Sure, you can pick a "good" bloodline... and get two or three spells you would have chosen anyway... but when you're doing this, you're reducing the Sorcerer's options. Not only are you forcing them to never take a (granted, usually small) class of spells, but you're also forcing them to take a set of spells that they wouldn't otherwise - you're reducing the Sorcerer's power in doing this, and the Sorcerer is already the weakest of the Core Full Casters (Note: these CFC's do not normally deplete the ozone layer).


Dannyalcatraz said:


> Second, the Bloodline feats cover a wide variety of ancestries- elementals, celestial, infernal, fey, illithid, undead erm and so forth, including dragons.  IOW, Sorcerers are delivered from being linked to dragons exclusively.
> 
> Third, it gives a mechanical justification for their being innately gifted with arcane spellcasting ability.  He can do something normal human(oid)s can do- cast arcane spells without studying to do so- because he's more than human(oid).
> 
> The subsequent heritage feats, however, must be taken as normal, if any are taken at all.



You're also denying them the ability to make up their own flavor to go with the mechanics when you do this - there's no possibility of, say, a commoner (explaining the d4 hit die) who was granted power after he helped a leprechaun disguised as an orphan, or one who was imbued with raw magic after being kidnapped from his bed by a BBEG and experimented on, or the guy who's just that forceful with his will (ala Psions with a different flavor) - they MUST have some ancestor or other that granted them these abilities.

Between the power-down of what's already the weakest of the full casters, and the forcing of their flavor into a particular type of channel, that particular choice of house-rule kinda leaves a sour taste in my mouth.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 19, 2008)

Jack Simth said:


> Not only are you forcing them to never take a (granted, usually small) class of spells, but you're also forcing them to take a set of spells that they wouldn't otherwise - you're reducing the Sorcerer's power in doing this, and the Sorcerer is already the weakest of the Core Full Casters (Note: these CFC's do not normally deplete the ozone layer).




Huh?

First of all, there's nothing in this HR that prevents a sorcerer from choosing _any _particular kind of spell.

Second, If you don't like the spell selection of one bloodline, choose another 1) Bloodline, 2) Class, 3) background (see below)

Third, opinions vary as to whether the Sorcerer is "the weakest" of the CFCs.  Even the guys who wrote Goodman Games - Power Gamer's 3.5 Wizard Strategy Guide didn't reach that conclusion.  Their position was that the Wiz and Sorc were fairly well balanced (at least in the hands of a good player).



> You're also denying them the ability to make up their own flavor to go with the mechanics when you do this - there's no possibility of, say, a commoner (explaining the d4 hit die) who was granted power after he helped a leprechaun disguised as an orphan, or one who was imbued with raw magic after being kidnapped from his bed by a BBEG and experimented on, or the guy who's just that forceful with his will (ala Psions with a different flavor) - they MUST have some ancestor or other that granted them these abilities.




Actually, no- my HR is just the default replacing the implied flavor of the PHB version.  If a player comes to me with a satisfactory alternate reason justifying his innate arcane prowess, I'll at least give it serious consideration.

Other backgrounds have included long term exposure to raw arcane energy (sort of a fantasy equivalent to the superhero who gets his powers from gamma ray exposure, like The Hulk), an arcane accident (analogous to the superhero who gets his powers from an high tech accident, like The Flash), a family curse or blessing, random experimentation quaffing someone's stash of magical potions and so forth.


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## Runestar (Oct 19, 2008)

> Second, the Bloodline feats cover a wide variety of ancestries- elementals, celestial, infernal, fey, illithid, undead erm and so forth, including dragons.  IOW, Sorcerers are delivered from being linked to dragons exclusively.
> 
> Third, it gives a mechanical justification for their being innately gifted with arcane spellcasting ability. He can do something normal human(oid)s can do- cast arcane spells without studying to do so- because he's more than human(oid).




Not just dragons. My gripe is more along the lines of - why must they even have been descended from someone powerful/weird in the first place?

If you remember the 2e netherese arcanists, they were effectively casters who used the UA spell-point variant, knew spells as a wizard, and could cast spells spontaneously like a sorcerer. 

So ability to spontaneously cast spells =/= innate spellcasting ability.

I tend to play sorcerers as just another wizard variant. After all, it makes no sense for warmages, dread necromancers or beguilers to necessarily have been descended from some ancient power. If they can learn their capabilities in colleges and magic schools, so too can sorcerers. They just chose to develop their powers in a manner different from conventional wizards.


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## Jack Simth (Oct 19, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Huh?
> 
> First of all, there's nothing in this HR that prevents a sorcerer from choosing _any _particular kind of spell.



It's a part of the Dragon Compendium bloodline feats.  The penumbra bloodline, for instance, forbids the casting of spells with the [Light] descriptor.


Dannyalcatraz said:


> Second, If you don't like the spell selection of one bloodline, choose another 1) Bloodline,



It doesn't matter which bloodline you take - in most cases, there will only be a relative handful of spells you would have chosen anyway, and the others are choices you would not have made - you have less choice with your house-ruled Sorcerer than with the standard PHB sorcerer - and a reduction in flexibility without a boost elsewhere is a reduction in power.


Dannyalcatraz said:


> 2) Class,



So basically, you've houseruled the class to the point where someone who was satisfied with the existing setup no longer has that option.  Interesting, no?


Dannyalcatraz said:


> 3) background (see below)
> 
> Third, opinions vary as to whether the Sorcerer is "the weakest" of the CFCs.  Even the guys who wrote Goodman Games - Power Gamer's 3.5 Wizard Strategy Guide didn't reach that conclusion.  Their position was that the Wiz and Sorc were fairly well balanced (at least in the hands of a good player).



The Core Sorcerer has more "power" over the course of one day than do the other Core casters.  The other Core casters, though, can fairly easily have more power over one round (Quicken Spell - and yes, I know this can be overcome if you branch out to any of a particular set of non-core sources - but that basically always costs something that all the other CFC get for free), and have more flexibility over the course of a campaign (can change spells on a single day's notice to adapt to "oh, this spell isn't as good in play as I thought?  Let's try this one" or "Oh, we're running against a lot of undead?  Okay, time to get away from Mind-Affecting spells" or "Unbeatable SR?  Well, time for the no-SR spells, or maybe some ally-buffs") - all the Core Sorcerer has going for him is per-round flexibility (the Sorcerer generally has more options on any given round than does the other Core casters) and endurance.


Dannyalcatraz said:


> Actually, no- my HR is just the default replacing the implied flavor of the PHB version.



The closest the PHB writeup for the Core sorcerer comes to implying that the powers are caused by their heritage is that "some sorcerers claim that the blood of dragons courses through their veins"

Seriously, the first line of the fluff is that "Sorcerers create magic the way a poet creates poems." - do you require Bards to have a bloodline from somewhere explaining their ranks in Perform?  The supernatural abilities that Bardic Music gives?


Dannyalcatraz said:


> If a player comes to me with a satisfactory alternate reason justifying his innate arcane prowess, I'll at least give it serious consideration.
> 
> Other backgrounds have included long term exposure to raw arcane energy (sort of a fantasy equivalent to the superhero who gets his powers from gamma ray exposure, like The Hulk), an arcane accident (analogous to the superhero who gets his powers from an high tech accident, like The Flash), a family curse or blessing, random experimentation quaffing someone's stash of magical potions and so forth.



Ah, yes, so anyone who wants to play a sorcerer without your relatively arbitrary restrictions that reduce the class power must first write up a backstory.  Do you require Fighters to write up a backstory for where they learned power attack?  For their specific choice of weapon-related feats? That's what you're doing to Sorcerers that don't want the arbitrary categories.

For the most part, you're reducing open-ended choices to a selection from a number of sets - "package deals", as it were.  All else being equal, a reduction in options is a reduction in power.   If things weren't equal for some other reason - aka, you boost the sorcerer elsewhere - that wouldn't be so bad.  If you were doing something similar to the other Core Full Casters, it wouldn't be so bad (because then everyone is on equal footing).  With nothing else being listed, however, you're nerfing the Sorcerer somewhat for no particularly good mechanical reason.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Oct 19, 2008)

Runestar said:


> ...why must they even have been descended from someone powerful/weird in the first place?




1) PHB flavor text suggests this to be the case.

2) The untrained casting of arcane spells is not something most creatures of a given race can do- that one can do so is truly unusual.

And in the mythology, legends, and fantasy fiction of the RW, that unusual fact is usually (but admittedly not always) linked to having ancestry that includes otherworldly beings- demons, angels, fey, and what have you.



> If you remember the 2e netherese arcanists, they were effectively casters who used the UA spell-point variant, knew spells as a wizard, and could cast spells spontaneously like a sorcerer.




I don't recall them at all- never heard of 'em.  If I had, I'd wonder about the "why" of it, and possibly have done something similar...at least insofar as 2Ed would let me.


> So ability to spontaneously cast spells =/= innate spellcasting ability.




In your campaign, true.  And in fact, I don't do that for classes like Warmages.  Then again, the Warmage's flavor text indicates their spellcasting ability is derived from special training.

But the Sorcerer is- in _my_ campaigns- going to have its mechanics and fluff closely linked.  It is implied in the PHB's language that Sorcerers derive their abilities from having unusual ancestry.



> I tend to play sorcerers as just another wizard variant. After all, it makes no sense for warmages, dread necromancers or beguilers to necessarily have been descended from some ancient power. If they can learn their capabilities in colleges and magic schools, so too can sorcerers. They just chose to develop their powers in a manner different from conventional wizards.




I'm glad that works for you.

Warmages' fluff, as noted above, explicitly says their abilities result from a special school of training in the arcane arts.

(I don't have Dread Necros and Beguilers in front of me to discuss their attributes.)

But equally explicitly, Sorcerers fluff links them to having unusual heritage...and at no point mentions training of any kind.  My HR makes that mention of ancestry a mechanical reality while broadening it beyond the mere draconic link, and as I stated before, I'm open to non-bloodline related rationales...

But not training, not for Sorcerers, not with the way they're written up.

For the record, nobody's complained about this HR in practice so far, nor has anyone decided not to play a Sorc because of it.  In fact, the usual reaction is either "So what?" or "Thank you for helping me shape my PC concept."


> It's a part of the Dragon Compendium bloodline feats. The penumbra bloodline, for instance, forbids the casting of spells with the [Light] descriptor.




Ah, yes, I'd forgotten- we generally don't use that part of those feats.  If the baseline feats automatically granted an ability similar to a domain (much like the ones DCv1's derivative bloodline feats grant), we'd keep it.

But they don't, so we excise those.



> Ah, yes, so anyone who wants to play a sorcerer without your relatively arbitrary restrictions that reduce the class power must first write up a backstory. Do you require Fighters to write up a backstory for where they learned power attack? For their specific choice of weapon-related feats? That's what you're doing to Sorcerers that don't want the arbitrary categories.




To a certain extent, yes I do, and no, there haven't been any complaints.


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## Runestar (Oct 19, 2008)

> But the Sorcerer is- in _my_ campaigns- going to have its mechanics and fluff closely linked. It is implied in the PHB's language that Sorcerers derive their abilities from having unusual ancestry.




I am not implying that you are wrong for running it the way you do. It has just been a long running peeve of mine, because that is apparently the manner wotc has been depicting sorcerers for quite some time now (especially in FR), and I just wanted to get it out.


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