# Am I correct that I can make a quadruple vampire?



## Ixis (Jun 17, 2011)

Going through the new Heroes of Shadow book (and this has probably been brought up, but I don't have a subscription so I can't do a forum search), but with the Vampire as a class I came up with a horribly terrible idea (that probably won't work, but that's why I'm asking.)

If I were to make a Revenant (past like Vryloka) Vampire with the Vampire Heritage feat and one of the Vampire Paragon Paths wouldn't that mean that the character became an undead vampire in life, then died and became an undead Revenant who then became a vampire, and who had a vampire great-great-grandfather or something and then around level 11 becomes a vampire, sorta, again...

Making him... a quadruple vampire quintuple undead...?


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## Scribble (Jun 17, 2011)

Maybe storywise you could make him part of like a "noble" line of vampires? Ones that believe they're the true vampire bloodline or something?


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## DracoSuave (Jun 17, 2011)

It's a quadruple vampire across the sky!

OH MY GOD WOW!!!!

WHAT DOES IT MEAN!?!


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## Scribble (Jun 17, 2011)

DracoSuave said:


> It's a quadruple vampire across the sky!
> 
> OH MY GOD WOW!!!!
> 
> WHAT DOES IT MEAN!?!




Instead of XP I wish we could sometimes give people a SLAP.


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## Dire Bare (Jun 17, 2011)

Ixis said:


> Going through the new Heroes of Shadow book (and this has probably been brought up, but I don't have a subscription so I can't do a forum search), but with the Vampire as a class I came up with a horribly terrible idea (that probably won't work, but that's why I'm asking.)
> 
> If I were to make a Revenant (past like Vryloka) Vampire with the Vampire Heritage feat and one of the Vampire Paragon Paths wouldn't that mean that the character became an undead vampire in life, then died and became an undead Revenant who then became a vampire, and who had a vampire great-great-grandfather or something and then around level 11 becomes a vampire, sorta, again...
> 
> Making him... a quadruple vampire quintuple undead...?




So far, sounds legal.  To add to the fun, maybe you could add some of those Dhampir feats from early 4E Dragon . . . that might not be legal . . .

Which would make you the half-undead child of a vampire and a vryloka (or, perhaps 3/4 undead) who passed away, was brought back as a revenant by the Raven Queen, than vampirized yet again . . .

_EDIT: After this month's Dragon with Vampire multiclass feats is uploaded in the Character Builder, I'm totally building this guy!_


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## mudbunny (Jun 17, 2011)

Somewhere, there is an LFR player who is curled in a corner shivering, right [MENTION=59244]WolfStar76[/MENTION], [MENTION=11365]Alphastream[/MENTION]??


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## WolfStar76 (Jun 17, 2011)

mudbunny said:


> Somewhere, there is an LFR player who is curled in a corner shivering, right [MENTION=59244]WolfStar76[/MENTION], [MENTION=11365]Alphastream[/MENTION]??




Only when it becomes a cleric of Ammauntor.


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## Herschel (Jun 17, 2011)

Ixis said:


> Going through the new Heroes of Shadow book (and this has probably been brought up, but I don't have a subscription so I can't do a forum search), but with the Vampire as a class I came up with a horribly terrible idea (that probably won't work, but that's why I'm asking.)
> 
> If I were to make a Revenant (past like Vryloka) Vampire with the Vampire Heritage feat and one of the Vampire Paragon Paths wouldn't that mean that the character became an undead vampire in life, then died and became an undead Revenant who then became a vampire, and who had a vampire great-great-grandfather or something and then around level 11 becomes a vampire, sorta, again...
> 
> Making him... a quadruple vampire quintuple undead...?





Nah, it's just eco-friendly vampire recycling.


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## Klaus (Jun 17, 2011)

Ixis said:


> Going through the new Heroes of Shadow book (and this has probably been brought up, but I don't have a subscription so I can't do a forum search), but with the Vampire as a class I came up with a horribly terrible idea (that probably won't work, but that's why I'm asking.)
> 
> If I were to make a Revenant (past like Vryloka) Vampire with the Vampire Heritage feat and one of the Vampire Paragon Paths wouldn't that mean that the character became an undead vampire in life, then died and became an undead Revenant who then became a vampire, and who had a vampire great-great-grandfather or something and then around level 11 becomes a vampire, sorta, again...
> 
> Making him... a quadruple vampire quintuple undead...?



Let's see:

- Character is born a Vryloka (or was a human and turned into a Vryloka through the Lifeblood power). His father was a full vampire, so the character takes the Vampiric Heritage feat.
- Character dies, and rises again as a Revenant (past life: Vryloka), and takes Vampire as a class.

All this remains true to the mythology of the dhampyr, the living children of vampires who would rise as vampires themselves after their death.


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 17, 2011)

100% plus 50% plus ??% plus ??% does not make 400%, so he is roughly a double and a half vampire, sorry. 

Or am I being too literal?


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## Raunalyn (Jun 17, 2011)

As long as he doesn't sparkle, I suppose it would be ok...


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## Herschel (Jun 17, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> 100% plus 50% plus ??% plus ??% does not make 400%, so he is roughly a double and a half vampire, sorry.
> 
> Or am I being too literal?




We have no idea what you are since there are two open variables and data integrity is therefore too corrupt to make any objective judgements.


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## Herschel (Jun 17, 2011)

Raunalyn said:


> As long as he doesn't sparkle, I suppose it would be ok...





But if he did he could be the pied piper for whiny, unremarkable high school girls.


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## Estlor (Jun 17, 2011)

A vryloka with the Vampiric Heritage feat checks out.
A revenant (vryloka) with the Vampiric Heritage feat also checks out.
A vryloka or revenant (vryloka) Vampire with the Vampiric Heritage feat *does not* check out.

Vampiric Heritage requires you to be a living creature.  Once you take the vampire class, your type changes to undead.

Sad but true.

So you can be an undead vampire vampire, but not an undead vampiric vampire vampire.

IMHO, I'd rather play War, the Warforged Warlord|Warden/Warlock/Zephyr Warchief/Warmaster.


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## MrMyth (Jun 17, 2011)

I'm about to start a Ravenloft game, and one player threatened to play a Half-Vampire Zombie Robot Vampire. (Warforged Revenant Vampire Dhampyr). Or sub Werewolf for Robot via Shifter. 

I like having the different approaches, but yeah, it gets silly when you stack them.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 17, 2011)

> *Raunalyn*
> 
> As long as he doesn't sparkle, I suppose it would be ok...




Is there a Glitterdust or Pyrotechnics spell in 4Ed?


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jun 17, 2011)

There is a Glitterdust spell. I believe it's an Essentials conjuerer ability.


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## FireLance (Jun 17, 2011)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:


> There is a Glitterdust spell. I believe it's an Essentials conjuerer ability.



Actually, it's a Wizard Attack 5 from Arcane Power.


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## bganon (Jun 17, 2011)

Estlor said:


> So you can be an undead vampire vampire, but not an undead vampiric vampire vampire.




If I remember correctly, this DID come up before, and you can add Arch-Lich as an Epic Destiny.  Possibly also even the ritual (intended for NPCs?) that makes you a (plain jane) Lich.

So you can be an undead vampire vampire lich, and possibly an undead vampire vampire lich lich.  And as people have said, you could argue that the Vampiric Heritage feat, if taken at first level, occurs "before" your class selection and represents the past life.  Cheesy, yes.  Mechanically advantegeous?  Not at all.  So then you actually do have an undead vampire vampire vampire lich lich.

I actually wrote up a character sheet for the undead vampire vampire vampire lich.  It's *TERRIBLE*.  And by terrible I mean bad.


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 18, 2011)

Herschel said:


> We have no idea what you are since there are two open variables and data integrity is therefore too corrupt to make any objective judgements.




Impressive way to dodge the question!


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 18, 2011)

If you don't go Revenant, you can get the Vampire Hertigate feats:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
*Elvira, Vampire Floozie 1st Class*
Vryloka, Vampire, Vampire Noble
Bloodline: Beguiler Bloodline
Blood Drain Option: Blood Drain Dexterity
Restless Dead (Restless Dead Benefit)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 12, CON 13, DEX 21, INT 12, WIS 9, CHA 21

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 11, CON 12, DEX 16, INT 11, WIS 8, CHA 16


AC: 24 Fort: 21 Ref: 24 Will: 25
HP: 75 Surges: 4 Surge Value: 18

TRAINED SKILLS
Bluff +17, Diplomacy +15, Intimidate +15, Stealth +17

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +10, Arcana +6, Athletics +6, Dungeoneering +4, Endurance +6, Heal +4, History +6, Insight +4, Nature +4, Perception +6, Religion +6, Streetwise +10, Thievery +10

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Vryloka Utility: Lifeblood
Vampire Attack: Blood Drinker
Feat Power: Blood Drain
Vampire Attack 1: Swarm of Shadows
Vampire Attack 1: Dark Beckoning
Vampire Attack 1: Taste of Life
Vampire Attack 1: Vampire Slam
Vampire Utility 2: Charming Gaze
Vampire Attack 3: Feral Assault
Vampire Utility 4: Strength of Blood
Vampire Attack 5: Unfettered Hunger
Vampire Utility 6: Form of the Bat
Vampire Attack 9: Domineering Gaze
Vampire Utility 10: Gaseous Form

FEATS
Level 1: Vampiric Heritage
Level 2: Vampire Alacrity
Level 4: Disciple of Shadows
Level 6: Ki Focus Expertise
Level 8: Durable
Level 10: Improved Defenses
Level 11: Savage Bite

ITEMS
Magic Ki Focus +3 x1
Counterstrike Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing) +2 x1
Periapt of Proof against Poison +2 x1
Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing)
Adventurer's Kit
Ki Focus
====== End ======

It's interesting to compare the overlapping abilities. You have multiple sources by 11th level that turn you into bats (Vryloka + Class), drain blood (Class + Bloodline), give you low-light vision (Vryloka + Bloodline), and turn you into clouds of mist (Class + Bloodline), and make you "undead" (Vryloka + Class). About the only unique aspect is the Vryloka LV 6 "Bloodwolf Form," which is the only wolf-form thing you can get at this point. To get it, you'd have to give up either a bat form, or a cloud of mist, from your class abilities. Which you might do, if your vampire concept really needs to have a wolf in it.

Of course, you could go Vampire Hybrid, and grab Druid or Ranger powers to get that Creatures of the Night mix, as a Beastmaster, or with your Wild Shape. Ranger is not a bad fix, hybrid-speaking, actually. Dex focus would do well. Bard could be intersting for the Cha-monkeys, as it would give you a lot of charm and manipulation powers, but it doesn't seem like it would be as useful as a Ranger.

Still a totally functional character.

In fact, my group might be loosing a striker in a week or two as we shift DMs and our current warforged barbarian becomes the DM. I might jump on this. Seems like it'll be at LEAST as effective as the gnome night stalker assassin I've whipped up.


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## catastrophic (Jun 18, 2011)

Dire Bare said:


> So far, sounds legal. To add to the fun, maybe you could add some of those Dhampir feats from early 4E Dragon . . . that might not be legal . . .
> 
> Which would make you the half-undead child of a vampire and a vryloka (or, perhaps 3/4 undead) who passed away, was brought back as a revenant by the Raven Queen, than vampirized yet again . . .



Just when I thought I was out
They sucked me back in again


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## Incenjucar (Jun 18, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Is there a Glitterdust or Pyrotechnics spell in 4Ed?




Pyrotechnics is a ritual.

A pretty rad ritual, actually.


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## DracoSuave (Jun 18, 2011)

I demand you speak in a transylvanian accent


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 18, 2011)

DracoSuave said:


> I demand you speak in a transylvanian accent




And the PC should have OCD bad enough to make him compulsively count things...


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## DracoSuave (Jun 18, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> And the PC should have OCD bad enough to make him compulsively count things...




All R's must be R-r-r-r-r-rolled!  All W's must be v's!


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 18, 2011)

One option! 

Two options!

Three optoins! *thunder and lightning* Ah-ah-ah-ah-ah!


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## Xris Robin (Jun 18, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> If you don't go Revenant, you can get the Vampire Hertigate feats



But the Vampire class makes you undead too.


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 19, 2011)

I think it's a bit of a loophole.

To take the vampire bloodline feats, the exact prerequisite is a _living humanoid race_.

Vryloka are a living humanoid race. Revenants are not.

Vryloka also get to be considered living or undead depending on what they want (e.g.: what might benefit them the most), so a vryloka vampire isn't _always_ undead, unless it would help them out.

It's RAW-legal, baby! CB let me do it just fine.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 19, 2011)

> Vryloka also get to be considered living or undead depending on what they want (e.g.: what might benefit them the most), so a vryloka vampire isn't always undead, unless it would help them out.




Schrödinger's Bloodsuckers?


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## DracoSuave (Jun 19, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Schrödinger's Bloodsuckers?




More like red-haired laws-of-the-universe rules-lawyers.

So the vampire's being undead trait gets applied to the vryloka, who can choose to be living any time it's to his benefit, rendering the class feature moot.

Never thought of that.  Red Witch gives her bounties indeed!


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 19, 2011)

> So the vampire's being undead trait gets applied to the vryloka, who can choose to be living any time it's to his benefit, rendering the class feature moot.
> 
> Never thought of that. Red Witch gives her bounties indeed!




It's an interesting mechanic. It's mostly flavor, but then there's this (fairly useless) ability to be a triple vampire, and I presume it works weirdly with things like the Lich ED and suchlike. 

It also makes them interesting adversaries...or rather, _frustrating_ adversaries...


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## Estlor (Jun 20, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I think it's a bit of a loophole.
> 
> To take the vampire bloodline feats, the exact prerequisite is a _living humanoid race_.
> 
> ...




Yes, but one of the class abilities of the vampire is you become undead.  So you're no longer meet the "living" portion regardless of race.

The CB is not a rules source/proof of something being "legal."  (Mainly because it's prone to having bugs or things not implemented correctly.  Like being treated as a living creature when you pick vampire as your class.)

Now, if you're asking, would I _let_ a player do that as the DM even though it's not RAW... depends on the theme of the campaign.  If everyone else was being a little silly, then heck yeah, bring on the Vampiric Vampire Vampire.

(Otherwise I'd tell them, "Go play a striker that can actually excel at it's role." )


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 20, 2011)

> Otherwise I'd tell them, "Go play a striker that can actually excel at it's role."




As opposed to one who sucks, riiiiight?


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## DracoSuave (Jun 20, 2011)

Estlor said:


> Yes, but one of the class abilities of the vampire is you become undead.  So you're no longer meet the "living" portion regardless of race.




Except for the fact that vryloka are living or undead depending entirely on what benefits them.  Racial ability trumps vampire class in this instance.  The vampire makes you undead, and vryloka makes you able to ignore that for whatever purposes you like.



> The CB is not a rules source/proof of something being "legal."  (Mainly because it's prone to having bugs or things not implemented correctly.  Like being treated as a living creature when you pick vampire as your class.)




It is actually correct in this instance.  Vryloka says 'That undead bit... feel free to ignore that if you don't like it.'  You get to choose what undeadness applies to and what it does not.



> Now, if you're asking, would I _let_ a player do that as the DM even though it's not RAW... depends on the theme of the campaign.  If everyone else was being a little silly, then heck yeah, bring on the Vampiric Vampire Vampire.




It is RAW.



> (Otherwise I'd tell them, "Go play a striker that can actually excel at it's role." )




Vryloka have Dex and Cha, which happen to be the Vampire's pet stats.  They also have a really good racial that can help mitigate the Vampire's fragility due to lack of healing surges, or move him into position when it needs to get done.

Sure, you're using a feat to take Vampiric Heritage, but whatever, see 'You don't need every damage dealing feat to be effective, unless you like having irrational and absurd beliefs'


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## Herschel (Jun 20, 2011)

But wait, do the language rules of even-numbers-of-negatives come in to play? A Revanent Vampire would be an un-undead, so would that mean it's really living?


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## DracoSuave (Jun 20, 2011)

Herschel said:


> But wait, do the language rules of even-numbers-of-negatives come in to play? A Revanent Vampire would be an un-undead, so would that mean it's really living?




Well, un-undead would be... dead.  Motionless.  Deceased.

AN EX-UNDEAD.


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## Klaus (Jun 20, 2011)

I can't offer an official statement, but as the writer of the vryloka, I'd rule that the Vampire "become undead" aspect trumps the vryloka's "living or undead" trait. That's why it is a very taboo thing among the vryloka, who made the bargain with the Red Witch *specifically* to avoid becoming undead in the first place.


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## Herschel (Jun 20, 2011)

DracoSuave said:


> Well, un-undead would be... dead. Motionless. Deceased.
> 
> AN EX-UNDEAD.





So he just created a dead character. I suppose it cuts out the middleman and the actual wondering of how your character is going to get ganked.


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## Mirtek (Jun 20, 2011)

Ixis said:


> Going through the new Heroes of Shadow book (and this has probably been brought up, but I don't have a subscription so I can't do a forum search), but with the Vampire as a class I came up with a horribly terrible idea (that probably won't work, but that's why I'm asking.)
> 
> If I were to make a Revenant (past like Vryloka) Vampire with the Vampire Heritage feat and one of the Vampire Paragon Paths wouldn't that mean that the character became an undead vampire in life, then died and became an undead Revenant who then became a vampire, and who had a vampire great-great-grandfather or something and then around level 11 becomes a vampire, sorta, again...
> 
> Making him... a quadruple vampire quintuple undead...?



IMO that would still only make him a double vampire.

1. Past live Vryloka
2. Vampire class

The Vampire PP simply further specifies what kind of vampire you are, it doesn't make you into a vampire one more time.


_Eidt: About Vampire Heritage, I responded only to the first post not realizing there is already a discussion about it's legality on a vampire vryloka. I am with the side saying that the vampire class trumps the race in this case_


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## I'm A Banana (Jun 21, 2011)

DracoSuave said:
			
		

> Sure, you're using a feat to take Vampiric Heritage, but whatever, see 'You don't need every damage dealing feat to be effective, unless you like having irrational and absurd beliefs'




Plus, it is more than worth one feat for _nigh infinite hilarity_, in my book. 



			
				Estlor said:
			
		

> Yes, but one of the class abilities of the vampire is you become undead. So you're no longer meet the "living" portion regardless of race.




There's nothing to say that the Vampire class trumps the Vryloka racial ability in the RAW. The Vampire class ability says, "You are undead. You are unaffected by things that affect living things." The Vryloka ability says "You are both living and undead. You can be affected by whatever you want." The prerequisite for the Vampire Heritage feats is that you are a living race. The vryloka count as a living race, AND an undead race, so what class they are doesn't matter.

You can also make a human Vampire with Vampire Heritage. Or a shade vampire with Vampire Heritage. Or a gnome vampire with Vampire Heritgate. Or a warforged vampire with Vampire Heritage. Vampire Heritage doesn't care about what your class does. It cares about what your race is, and the vryloka are BOTH. 



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> I can't offer an official statement, but as the writer of the vryloka, I'd rule that the Vampire "become undead" aspect trumps the vryloka's "living or undead" trait. That's why it is a very taboo thing among the vryloka, who made the bargain with the Red Witch *specifically* to avoid becoming undead in the first place.




Admittedly, I'm sure it's truncated, but the Compendium doesn't say much about vampirism being _taboo_, just that the Vrylokas wanted to live forever without becoming actual undead. So the Red Witch kind of went halfsies on their mortality. 

Elvira never understood why her fellow family members were so adverse to becoming undead in the first place. Really, it seems like outmoded puritainism, the kind of thing that disallows dancing and plunging necklines because they're "provocative." Why qualify what they are with "living"? Why not embrace what they truly want to be? Sexy, powerful, undead lords of all creation? 

So the moment some baron with sharp teeth took a liking to her, she discarded her racial values of "being alive" like she discarded pointless one-night-stands, disposable like the mortal commoners her family lived on. 

Of course, it didn't hurt that the baron was so _darkly sexy_ that it made her legs jello just to hear him say "Children of the Night!". 

Sure, it...didn't quite take. When the bite happened, it was almost like she _absorbed_ his vampirism, it flowed into him, and through her, and, presumably, through to the source of the vryloka -- the Red Witch. It seemed to overflow, and the sloshing negative energy came back to her in a wave, which allowed her to tap into the common origin of all vryloka abilities: the vampiric heritage.

Of course, Baron von Darkly died after the bite. Which left Elvira _heartbroken_, even to this day. And, more importantly, without many friends. The zombies and skeletons in von Darkly's well-appointed castle/mansion weren't good conversation, and the human chattel just seemed to scream and run away. 

Now, much to her wealthy family's disappointment, she has embarked on all the adventure her ravishing good looks and poor judgement can get her into, looking for the secrets of true, endless, _free_ life. No pacts. No deals. No witches or gods or lords or demons. Just her, and her eternal, unending youth.

Well, and the ire of an entire race of milquetoast wishy-washy maybe-sorta vampire-lite but-really-totally-normal-you-guys vampire-folk and their mysterious crimson benefactor.

But Elvira has certainly never let the problems others have with her choice of lifestyle stop her.


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## DracoSuave (Jun 21, 2011)

Herschel said:


> So he just created a dead character. I suppose it cuts out the middleman and the actual wondering of how your character is going to get ganked.




Also when I kill the character for arbitrary tyrannical reasons, it feels less like I'm singling him out.


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## Dungeoneer (Jan 24, 2014)

I was messing around with creating my own Vampire Vampire Vampire when I came across this amazing thread. Given the subject matter, I thought a little bit of thread necromancy might not be inappropriate. 

Anyway, so I'm building a Vryloka Vampire with the Vampire heritage feats (RAW says it's legal, baby!). I was hoping for a vampire theme too, but couldn't find one. But I did find one for... Werewolf! (Dragon #410)

That's right: Vampire Vampire Vampire (Werewolf). 

Mechanically, this bad boy starts off with four ways to suck blood at first level*! And in close combat, he can use his wolf form for basic attacks. After that the bad news starts: with only a cloth armor proficiency he has piddling AC. His un-enhanced attacks aren't that great either. And with a grand total of two (2) healing surges, he'll be dead (again) soon.

Depending on your perspective, that may or may not be a bad thing.

* - Blood Drinker [Encounter] (Vampire)
- Blood Drain [Encounter] (Heritage Feat)
- Lifeblood [Utility] (Vryloka)
- Taste of Life [At-Will] (Vampire)


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 24, 2014)

Dungeoneer said:


> I was messing around with creating my own Vampire Vampire Vampire when I came across this amazing thread. Given the subject matter, I thought a little bit of thread necromancy might not be inappropriate.




I like this thread. The Triple Vampire has surprisingly deep ramifications for me on my personal design philosophy. I'm really glad 4e dove into this, and it's something I hope 5e continues. 



> Anyway, so I'm building a Vryloka Vampire with the Vampire heritage feats (RAW says it's legal, baby!). I was hoping for a vampire theme too, but couldn't find one. But I did find one for... Werewolf! (Dragon #410)
> 
> That's right: Vampire Vampire Vampire (Werewolf).




Badger badger badger (mushroom). /reallyoldreference

If we had an alternate timeline where themes were A Thing before the vampire class came out, I think the theme would have probably been a good location for a version of the Vampire that wouldn't have involved sacrificing other things too much. 

I had a discovery last week that one thing that really helps the Vampire class is surge-less healing and DR. Which makes it a great fit with the _Artificer_ class, believe it or not. Which also creates a hilarious image in my head, of a vampire who basically uses other peoples' blood to heal everyone. Okay, not the most effective hybrid in the world, but kind of a fun idea for a character, I think!


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## Dungeoneer (Jan 24, 2014)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I like this thread. The Triple Vampire has surprisingly deep ramifications for me on my personal design philosophy. I'm really glad 4e dove into this, and it's something I hope 5e continues.




Seriously?!? What about this hodgepodge of attempts to appeal to the pre-teen emo set inspires you? 





> If we had an alternate timeline where themes were A Thing before the vampire class came out, I think the theme would have probably been a good location for a version of the Vampire that wouldn't have involved sacrificing other things too much.




But themes did exist long before this class! They go all the way back to 4e Dark Sun, just a couple years on, while Heroes of Shadow was one of the last splat books to come out. I certainly agree that a vampire theme would have made more sense than any of the approaches we actually wound up with. I mean, Heritage Feats make sense in theory but in practice feats are too valuable to a player to sacrifice.[/QUOTE]



> I had a discovery last week that one thing that really helps the Vampire class is surge-less healing and DR. Which makes it a great fit with the _Artificer_ class, believe it or not. Which also creates a hilarious image in my head, of a vampire who basically uses other peoples' blood to heal everyone. Okay, not the most effective hybrid in the world, but kind of a fun idea for a character, I think!



Nice.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 24, 2014)

Dungeoneer said:
			
		

> Seriously?!? What about this hodgepodge of attempts to appeal to the pre-teen emo set inspires you?




There's more than one way to skin a cat. Sometimes, D&D -- and tabletop designers in general -- can forget that and can try to make everyone do it all one way. It would've been easy for 4e to just publish some feats and say, "Hey, you wanna be a vampire, you do it LIKE THIS. And maybe re-fluff a lot of stuff."

But they went to, "Hey, you wanna be a vampire, here's three or four different ways to do it. Do whatever works for you." 

They can be combined, sure. That clearly isn't necessary, though (and it doesn't result in a greatly effective character, though there are worse options). 

That philosophy, that there's not just One Way to be a Vampire, is, IMO, really important when you're making a game that needs to accommodate millions of different tables that all do their own thing. 



			
				Dungeoneer said:
			
		

> But themes did exist long before this class! They go all the way back to 4e Dark Sun, just a couple years on, while Heroes of Shadow was one of the last splat books to come out. I certainly agree that a vampire theme would have made more sense than any of the approaches we actually wound up with. I mean, Heritage Feats make sense in theory but in practice feats are too valuable to a player to sacrific




IIRC, Heroes of Shadow came out not too long after Dark Sun, which means they were probably in production at the same time. HoS doesn't have ANY themes. I don't think it was a tool that the team had real access to. 

That's my horrible memory talking, though, so I could be wrong.


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## Dungeoneer (Jan 24, 2014)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> There's more than one way to skin a cat. Sometimes, D&D -- and tabletop designers in general -- can forget that and can try to make everyone do it all one way. It would've been easy for 4e to just publish some feats and say, "Hey, you wanna be a vampire, you do it LIKE THIS. And maybe re-fluff a lot of stuff."
> 
> But they went to, "Hey, you wanna be a vampire, here's three or four different ways to do it. Do whatever works for you."




I suppose... I feel like there's gotta be a better way to do it than this, though. For starters, 'vampire' just seems like it's a bad fit for a class in general. And in fact, the actual class seems like a bit of a one-trick pony.



> That philosophy, that there's not just One Way to be a Vampire, is, IMO, really important when you're making a game that needs to accommodate millions of different tables that all do their own thing.




Fair enough. Imagine all these options had come out at the same time, though. It would have confused the heck out of players, I would think. Obviously the Vampire Vampire Vampire (Werewolf!) is a joke build, but if all these options had appeared at the same time people would probably assume that they were meant to be used together.



> IIRC, Heroes of Shadow came out not too long after Dark Sun, which means they were probably in production at the same time. HoS doesn't have ANY themes. I don't think it was a tool that the team had real access to.
> 
> That's my horrible memory talking, though, so I could be wrong.




A little digging shows that the Dark Sun Campaign Setting was released in August 2010, while Heroes of Shadow appeared almost a year later, in April of 2011. The Neverwinter Campaign Guide and the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought box sets, which appeared within the following two months, both featured themes. I don't know the ins-and-outs of game publishing, but it seems like they would have had plenty of chance to learn about themes. Maybe HoS had a delayed release and was actually produced earlier, though, who knows.


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## TwoSix (Jan 24, 2014)

Dungeoneer said:


> A little digging shows that the Dark Sun Campaign Setting was released in August 2010, while Heroes of Shadow appeared almost a year later, in April of 2011. The Neverwinter Campaign Guide and the Shadowfell: Gloomwrought box sets, which appeared within the following two months, both featured themes. I don't know the ins-and-outs of game publishing, but it seems like they would have had plenty of chance to learn about themes. Maybe HoS had a delayed release and was actually produced earlier, though, who knows.



That's only 8 months.  Doesn't leave a lot of time to release Dark Sun, absorb feedback about themes, and then incorporate them into the book.


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## Klaus (Jan 25, 2014)

Dungeoneer said:


> But themes did exist long before this class! They go all the way back to 4e Dark Sun, just a couple years on, while Heroes of Shadow was one of the last splat books to come out.




And you're wrong. I wrote my part in Heroes of Shadow (shade, vryloka, some feats, paragon paths and epic destinies) before Dark Sun came out. If I could go back, I'd totally make shade a theme.


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## Tuft (Jan 25, 2014)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> > vampire vampire vampire (werewolf)
> 
> 
> 
> Badger badger badger (mushroom). /reallyoldreference





If that is a "really old reference" then...  *ouch!*


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jan 25, 2014)

Klaus said:


> And you're wrong. I wrote my part in Heroes of Shadow (shade, vryloka, some feats, paragon paths and epic destinies) before Dark Sun came out. If I could go back, I'd totally make shade a theme.




Yeah, that would be a better idea, IMO. I would also like to have seen it as a paragon path (at the risk of creating the opportunity for a double shade).


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## Klaus (Jan 25, 2014)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> Yeah, that would be a better idea, IMO. I would also like to have seen it as a paragon path (at the risk of creating the opportunity for a double shade).




With retraining, you wouldn't need a Paragon Path, you'd retrain your original theme for another mid-campaign. But a Shade Exemplar paragon path, bulding upon the theme's powers, would be a cool possibility.


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