# Darth Sidious question - **RotS Spoilers**



## Desdichado (May 20, 2005)

So, when Palpatine's face goes from the regular Ian McDiarmid to the "super make-up" Ian McDiarmid Emperor look, what is really going on?  There are two schools of thought, and as near as I can tell, neither is contradicted by the movies, so it's speculation time:

Just like Palpatine says, the lightning rebounding on him really does deform and deface him.  Problems with this include the fact that lightning doesn't actually cause your face to get all wrinkly and leathery, and did not when it hit anyone else in the movies either, as in Luke in RotJ.  A twist on this theory is that Palpatine was actually in some serious danger from Mace Windu after all (as opposed to mostly putting on a play for Anakin's benefit) and so was channelling the Dark Side of the Force so strongly that he literally became corrupted and mutated before our very eyes.
That was his face all along, and he just revealed it at a carefully considered point in his plot to gain sympathy against the Jedi with both Anakin and the Senate.  His nice face was just a disguise to cover up the fact that he was a warped and corrupted Sith Lord.
Which do you favor?  Or do you have a variant?


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## ShinHakkaider (May 20, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> So, when Palpatine's face goes from the regular Ian McDiarmid to the "super make-up" Ian McDiarmid Emperor look, what is really going on?  There are two schools of thought, and as near as I can tell, neither is contradicted by the movies, so it's speculation time:
> 
> Just like Palpatine says, the lightning rebounding on him really does deform and deface him.  Problems with this include the fact that lightning doesn't actually cause your face to get all wrinkly and leathery, and did not when it hit anyone else in the movies either, as in Luke in RotJ.  A twist on this theory is that Palpatine was actually in some serious danger from Mace Windu after all (as opposed to mostly putting on a play for Anakin's benefit) and so was channelling the Dark Side of the Force so strongly that he literally became corrupted and mutated before our very eyes.
> That was his face all along, and he just revealed it at a carefully considered point in his plot to gain sympathy against the Jedi with both Anakin and the Senate.  His nice face was just a disguise to cover up the fact that he was a warped and corrupted Sith Lord.
> Which do you favor?  Or do you have a variant?





I like 1.


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## Mystery Man (May 20, 2005)

Ah I posed another question on another thread relating to this. To me, its pretty obvious that he was faking helplessness only to get Anakin to finally turn. Am I alone in this?

I'm for option 2. In other scenes before III you can get hints with little glimpses of his face. You can tell that he's already deformed.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2005)

I think it's a combination of the first two poll options. The lightning that blasted him didn't so much cause the deformation directly so much as cause an overload of the Dark Side in his body, forcing it to visibly manifest.

I also liked how he actually managed to use his hideousness to gain sympathy from the Senate. A nice touch.

Demiurge out.


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (May 20, 2005)

I could accept either.  Although largely hidden, when he was appearing as Sidious to his various flunkys via hologram, it hinted that his face was already somewhat deformed, lending credence to the disguise theory.

FWIW, I think Windu was really kicking his ass.  Mace was supposed to be the premier Jedi warrior, whereas Yoda was more the wise thinking type, and Yoda seemed evenly matched with Sidious.


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## fett527 (May 20, 2005)

Number 2.  He was deformed all along.  I loved it when he put the hood over his face and looked just like he did in Jedi.


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## Hand of Evil (May 20, 2005)

He was already deformed; his regular face was a disguise.  He used the dark side of the force (or tech which was blasted from the lightning) to keep his true appearance unknown.  Bad guys do it all the time.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 20, 2005)

I went into episode III that it was already deformed and I left episode III thinking the same thing…

He may have given up his mask cause he could no longer maintain it do to the vast amounts of power that he was using for the force lighting or like much of the man himself he might have plotted so far in advance that it was planned but he wasn’t at all shocked at what had become of himself…


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## Psion (May 20, 2005)

I think its a combination of choices 2 and 3.

He's appeared that way before... just never in public. Obviously, using the dark side warps him. He can disguise himself, but it's an effort.


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## Dagger75 (May 20, 2005)

Well in the noveliazation its closer to 1.  Mace redirected the lighting and it started burning and maiming the Palapitine.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 20, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Well in the noveliazation its closer to 1.  Mace redirected the lighting and it started burning and maiming the Palapitine.




Probably next on my reading list and it might be the truth if its in the book as I can think of at least one Jedi Master that should have been killed in the movie but wasn’t.


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## Dark Jezter (May 20, 2005)

I favor option 2.

And did anybody else get a big grin on their face when Palpatine started begging and pleading for his life?  It reminded me of his screaming fit at the end of RotJ when he realized that Vader was going to kill him.  Palpatine likes to act like he has everything under control, but when he's in real danger he turns into a coward.


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## Welverin (May 20, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Just like Palpatine says, the lightning rebounding on him really does deform and deface him.  Problems with this include the fact that lightning doesn't actually cause your face to get all wrinkly and leathery, and did not when it hit anyone else in the movies either, as in Luke in RotJ.  A twist on this theory is that Palpatine was actually in some serious danger from Mace Windu after all (as opposed to mostly putting on a play for Anakin's benefit) and so was channelling the Dark Side of the Force so strongly that he literally became corrupted and mutated before our very eyes.
> Which do you favor?  Or do you have a variant?




I lean towards one, and the reason I don't think anyone else ended up deformed the same way is because no one else was exposed to as long as he was. Luke, Yoda, and Anakin got hit by short blasts, Palpy was not only shooting it out but was getting hit by it for an extended period of time.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 20, 2005)

If you're strictly following the movie...it was definitely the lightning that did it to him. Look at Sidious in the other two Prequels. He looks exactly like Palpatine...not deformed or Emperor-like at all. There's NO hints of deformity beyond the fan speculation that he's masking it.

However...I lean towards it still being a mix of the things.


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## Taelorn76 (May 20, 2005)

I have always thought that he was hiding the disfiguration. That is was all part of his plan.


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## Jack Daniel (May 21, 2005)

Well it's EU canon that dark side powers are severely corruptive, and that Cos Palpatine had (previously and subsequently) transfered his life force into a clone body several times, every time his old body burned itself out. It's how he survived _Return of the Jedi_ to plague the Skywalkers again in the _Dark Empire_ trilogy.

So, I figure, yeah, the darkside lightning really did corrupt and scar his body before our eyes.


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## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

Jack Daniel said:
			
		

> Well it's EU canon that dark side powers are severely corruptive, and that Cos Palpatine had (previously and subsequently) transfered his life force into a clone body several times, every time his old body burned itself out. It's how he survived _Return of the Jedi_ to plague the Skywakers again in the _Dark Empire_ trilogy.




But that was insanely cheesy, which is why I chose to ignore long ago.

p.s. Why is it the only non-cheesy SW comics (from ten plus years ago) were the old republic ones?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> But that was insanely cheesy, which is why I chose to ignore long ago.
> 
> p.s. Why is it the only non-cheesy SW comics (from ten plsu years ago) were the old republic ones?



 Because some of them had to be good?

Good enough that Lucas loved them, and reading them again, you can just see how the Jedi developed into what they became in the Rise of the Empire Era. That, is great...and I can't help but wonder if Lucas at least did some of that on purpose.


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## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Because some of them had to be good?




Unfortunately that's not true, and even if it was it wouldn't explain the lopsidedness. Of course the novels make up for that, too bad there are no old republic novels.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> p.s. Why is it the only non-cheesy SW comics (from ten plus years ago) were the old republic ones?




What about the Rogue Squadron comics?


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## Edena_of_Neith (May 21, 2005)

I would vote for option 2.  The Emperor normally looked dreadful, due to his use of the Dark Side to prolong his life.  When he used the Force Lightning, that was a use of the Dark Side, and it caused his true appearance to manifest itself.  His Palpatine the Senator appearance was a disguise.


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## Captain Tagon (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> But that was insanely cheesy, which is why I chose to ignore long ago.
> 
> p.s. Why is it the only non-cheesy SW comics (from ten plus years ago) were the old republic ones?





What exactly makes it so cheesy to you?


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## Welverin (May 21, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> What about the Rogue Squadron comics?




Haven't read those, but they likely would be o.k., because what bothered me about the Dark Empire series is how over the top they were, which made more like a bad super-hero story.


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## wingsandsword (May 21, 2005)

I thought it was quite nice of Lucas to not only not contradict Dark Empire, but imply it could be correct.  Having Palpatine/Sidious have some deep, dark secret of immortality (that apparently can't save you if you're not awake to use it, like Plagueis) plays right into Dark Empire.  Cheesy or not, Episode III did strongly hint that it could be true, just like how Lucas left a big hole open for the EU by not only not saying that Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only survivors, but having Obi-Wan rig the comn system to tell any Jedi who had survived to that point to flee.

Yes Dark Empire is pretty over-the-top, but so was the Clone Wars series which Lucas very explicitly had a hand in.  It has always seemed that the most powerful Jedi and Sith had powers bordering on super-heroic.  In Ep I, both Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon used superhuman speed that would look like a comic book, they take long falls, make incredible leaps, and act with inhuman precision.  If Jedi wore spandex and capes instead of quasi-monastic robes they could pass themselves off as an League of Superheroes instead of a monastic order.  Of course, high-level D&D PC's could do the same thing too.

Since Lucas was at least not openly contradicting the EU, paying attention to the idea that excessive use of the Dark Side could be physically corrupting could help explain his withered, decrepit look, especially when he was on the edge of defeat from Master Windu.


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## WayneLigon (May 21, 2005)

I could go with either 1 or 2, though 2 makes more sense.

I think that Palpatine's 'please don't kill me act' was just that: an act to push Anakin into attacking one of his own. He plays on the exact same feelings Anakin had when faced with Dooku, manipulating him yet again.


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## Trickstergod (May 21, 2005)

Option one blending into two. Palpatine could have used the Dark Side 'til the cows came home and he'd have been dandy, much like Dooku was after however many years he'd been using the Dark Side. Similarly, just striking somebody with force lightning won't generally deform them. 

However, the feedback loop of the force lightning and Dark Side energy coursing back through its source had some quite nasty side-effects. 

Because none of the images of Palpatine-as-Sidious in the Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones looked like any physical deformity existed. I'll have to go back and rewatch them, though, and see the pallor of Palpatine's face in the few scenes he's not just a holographic image.


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## Desdichado (May 21, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> If you're strictly following the movie...it was definitely the lightning that did it to him. Look at Sidious in the other two Prequels. He looks exactly like Palpatine...not deformed or Emperor-like at all. There's NO hints of deformity beyond the fan speculation that he's masking it.



I have been looking for six years.  I've always thought the Darth Sidious persona already looked exactly like the Emperor, not like Palpatine.


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## Desdichado (May 21, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> p.s. Why is it the only non-cheesy SW comics (from ten plus years ago) were the old republic ones?



Huh.  I thought the Old Republic ones, and the Sith Wars and all those "ancient" comics were the most cheesy and the least Star Wars.  The Darth Maul comic was my favorite.


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## Flyspeck23 (May 21, 2005)

Here a screen-capture of Darth Sidious at the end of AotC (note: I adjusted the colors).

Looks pretty much like regular Palpatine to me. So I guess it's option 1.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 21, 2005)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> So I guess it's option 1.




"No. That's not true. That's impossible!"

Okay... maybe it is I guess the only thing left is to see if Option 1 will catch up to the other choices.


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## Gomez (May 21, 2005)

After watching the battle between Darth Sidious and Mace Windu for the second time, I feel that the Emperor had the situation undercontrol from the very beginning. He told Anikan that he was a Sith knowing that he would tell the Jedi counsel. He was waiting for someone to show up knowing that Anikan was stewing about him being Padme's only hope. When Windu showed he gave a very good performance of being hurt and weakened by the force lightning which he himself was producing so Anikan would turn on Windu. I think the "deformed" appearance of the emperor was how he normally looks. Once Anikan hits Windu, the Emperor hits Windu with a very powerful force lighting and stands right up no worse for wear. The whole thing was staged to get Anikan to turn to the dark side. If Windu had trusted Anikan and taken him along with him to face Darth Sidious the outcome could have been totally different.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2005)

Gomez said:
			
		

> If Windu had trusted Anikan and taken him along with him to face Darth Sidious the outcome could have been totally different.




I don't think so. Palpatine would have played to Anakin if he was there, and things would have foudn their way to the same spot just with a different way of getting there.

Anakin SHOULD have done as he was told and stayed back in the Temple. Note that Windu had beaten Palpy BEFORE Anakin showed up. Palpatine was only playing for Anakin when the kid showed up, and if that hadn't happened, Windu would have killed him(as I expect he still would have tried the Force lightning).

All evidence points to Palpatine being deformed by the lightning. However, I get the feeling most people like the idea of him hiding his appearance too much to let go of the idea.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Anakin SHOULD have done as he was told and stayed back in the Temple. Note that Windu had beaten Palpy BEFORE Anakin showed up.




Right....  Spoken like the true fan boy that I know you are.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Right....  Spoken like the true fan boy that I know you are.



 Well, if Anakin hadn't come by, Palpatine was easy enough to deal with. He'd lost his lightsaber and was already cornered by the time Anakin arrived. So all Mace had to do was react to the Force lightnight which likely would have happened, then after Palpatine had weakened himself from using it...lop off the Sith's head. Problem solved, no Darth Vader, no Empire.

...of course, that means no classic trilogy either, so it isn't all good.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Well, if Anakin hadn't come by, Palpatine was easy enough to deal with. He'd lost his lightsaber and was already cornered by the time Anakin arrived.




This is right after he killed all but one of the Jedi Knights/Masters that came to arrest him, yes?    

I say Palpatine sensed the coming presence of Anakin and played possum to get his apprentice…


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## Gomez (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I say Palpatine sensed the coming presence of Anakin and played possum to get his apprentice…




Yep. If Palaptine could sense that his apprentice was in trouble on a distant planet. I bet he could sense if Anakin was about to enter the room.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2005)

Oh, Palpatine definitely knew Anakin was around. He even used a little Telepathy while Anakin was in the Jedi Council Chambers.

However...Palpatine didn't lose his lightsaber on purpose. Looked to me like Mace got it out of his hands and out the window. Hence, Mace STILL won the fight, and would still have been in a position of control even without Anakin's help.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> However...Palpatine didn't lose his lightsaber on purpose. Looked to me like Mace got it out of his hands and out the window. Hence, Mace STILL won the fight, and would still have been in a position of control even without Anakin's help.




Move Object.... drop.  Bye Bye Jedi Master...  Honestly Mace was only as close as Palpatine wanted or need him to be.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Move Object.... drop.  Bye Bye Jedi Master...  Honestly Mace was only as close as Palpatine wanted or need him to be.



 Considering how easily Mace defended against the Lightning, it can be assumed he would have defended himself well enough against other attacks. YES, Palpatine was putting on a show for Anakin. But Mace still won their duel from his own skill, and without Anakin's intervention, Palpatine was going to be killed. He was definitely out classed by Mace, only having the surprise factor at the beginning of their fight and the help of Anakin to keep him alive.

Of course, since its Palpatine, if you ask him he'll say he had it allll under control the whoooole time.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> But Mace still won their duel from his own skill, and without Anakin's intervention, Palpatine was going to be killed.




My opinion is simply going to differ from yours but that’s cool.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 22, 2005)

I think the whole scene battle and everything that went on went according to Sideous' plan.  he killed the other three Jedi Masters in three strokes, then fought Windu long enough for Anakin to get into the position Sideous wanted him in.  It was all as he foresaw IMO.  I think if he wouldn't have wanted to get Anakin to turn at that moment he would have offed Windu after a bit of a fight.  I think at that point he was the most powerful force user alive, slightly ahead of Yoda.  Only Anakin had the potential to become more powerful in the force.  then he got hacked to pieces and became more and more machine, which dampened his potential and merely left him the second more powerful force user alive.  IMO based on Lucas' comments during audio commentary and my own fanboy thoughts.


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## driver8 (May 22, 2005)

It will be interesting to hear the audio commentary when the DvD comes out. However, given that Mace was supposed to be a sword master, I think Palpatine was seriously on the verge of losing. He lost his saber, and his lightning attacks were being deflected, deforming him.

From a story point of view, its important that Palpy was been defeated. Anakin up to that point is on the brink-he's ambitous and kind of in favor of a strong man running the show; but he respects the Jedi code and thinks the Jedi Council is bending it to their own agenda. And the thing that tips the scale is that regardless of all that, he wants the knowledge that Palpatine has to save his wife.

If its just Palpatine deliberatly losing the fight, its not as much of a turning point-without Anakin there is no Empire.

And I think that the lightning did deform him, since like alot of other things in these prequels, we get to see how things came to be how they are in the OT.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

driver8 said:
			
		

> If its just Palpatine deliberately losing the fight, it’s not as much of a turning point-without Anakin there is no Empire.




Obviously, no one has once said that Anakin wasn't important to Palpatine's plan...  Yoda himself said that there were always two, a master and an apprentice, and at that point in time Palpatine had already had his current apprentice killed to forward his plan.  He needed his new apprentice and he needed something that would force Anakin’s hand and Mace was all too willing to provide that.


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## RedShirtNo5 (May 22, 2005)

What I wonder is whether "most powerful force user" necessarily translates to best in a fight.  

Here's my thought.  Clearly, Sideous is strong in predictive, masking and dark force powers.  Better, IMO, than Anakin ever would have been.  Sideous might foresee that Anakin would be powerful enough to defeat him, and either Anakin or Mace might be able to defeat Sideous in a straight-up fight.  But events wouldn't transpire that way because Sideous would have foreseen what to do earlier.  Against Yoda, Sideoous was evenly matched, basically resulting in a stalemate.   Basically, it took a gap in Sideous's premonition caused by blindness to the effect of love to defeat him. 

-RedShirt


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## Jdvn1 (May 22, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> But Mace still won their duel from his own skill, and without Anakin's intervention, Palpatine was going to be killed.



See, but I think Mace was kind of stupid at the end, there.  Why did he bother raising his lightsaber for the finishing blow?  It's not like you need momentum.  A little flick of the wrist and Palpatine would've been dead.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> A little flick of the wrist and Palpatine would've been dead.



Maybe Mace wasn't the master he thought he was...


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## Jdvn1 (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Maybe Mace wasn't the master he thought he was...



Well, I also would've have let Palpatine scurry across the room like that, and I certainly wouldn't have let him live through that conversation.

But what do I know?  I'm not a Master either.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Well, I also would've have let Palpatine scurry across the room like that, and I certainly wouldn't have let him live through that conversation.




I think Mace was struggling with what to do with Palpatine, as in his emotions.  He went to arrest him with three other Jedi and ended up deciding it would be best to kill him cause a trial would never be successful.   (DSP anyone?) 

I think Anakin was truly right in stating/believing that Palpatine was suppose to stand trial.


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## jenesyss (May 22, 2005)

This is what my wife and I both thought watching the movie tonight:

Palpatine used the fight against Mace to make it look like he was scarred by a Jedi assassination attempt to gain the trust of the senate in his bid to become emperor. In actual fact that was his natural face.

We both figured that Sidiuos was Plagueis apprentice and the disfigured face was his natural face due to him being ancient and disfigured by the Dark Side.

(In the legend of Plagueis Palpatine tells Anakin Plagueis was able to control midiclorins and create life as well as had immortality and tought his apprentice also it has been rumoured Sidiuos "impregnated" Shmi Skywalker with midiclorins and created Anakin)

Just my two cents


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## Eosin the Red (May 22, 2005)

Hmm, the book sheds some aditional light on the Mace/Palp fight. 

Mace knows that he cannot beat Sidious by himself. When Anakin arrives he senses that Anakin is the "Shatterpoint" for the sith and assumed that Anakin would do the right thing. He assumed wrong.

I also think that if Mace would have taken Anakin into confidence that it would have ended very differently. In the same way that Yoda missed his chance when Anakin came to him with his fears. Instead of listening to a very young man, Yoda gave him some pseudo-philosipichal horse hooey. Basically, the Old Republic Jedi suck and brought all thier problems on themselves. Luckily, Luke was smart enough not to listen to Yoda or Ben and fall into the same trap that snared his father.


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## Jdvn1 (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> I think Mace was struggling with what to do with Palpatine, as in his emotions.  He went to arrest him with three other Jedi and ended up deciding it would be best to kill him cause a trial would never be successful.   (DSP anyone?)
> 
> I think Anakin was truly right in stating/believing that Palpatine was suppose to stand trial.



... Eh, maybe.  That he resisted arrest didn't exactly speak volumes for his right to a fair trial.  If you attack a cop, expect him to attack you in return.

I was thinking... I think option 3 here is very unlikely.  If he could've masked his face, he would've done so after taking care of Mace.  So what if Anakin saw him?  "You've sworn your allegiance to me.  Don't tell anyone about my face."  Done.  Why have his face be scarred?  I don't think it helped him at all.


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## Turanil (May 22, 2005)

Mystery Man said:
			
		

> Ah I posed another question on another thread relating to this. To me, its pretty obvious that he was faking helplessness only to get Anakin to finally turn. Am I alone in this?
> 
> I'm for option 2. In other scenes before III you can get hints with little glimpses of his face. You can tell that he's already deformed.




I entirely agree with this.

1) Palpatine's true face was already deformed (or maybe he is some alien race?)

2) He was indeed faking helplessness to have Anakin fall to the dark side.


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## Flyspeck23 (May 22, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> 1) Palpatine's true face was already deformed (or maybe he is some alien race?)




Need more screen captures?


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## Welverin (May 22, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> This is right after he killed all but one of the Jedi Knights/Masters that came to arrest him, yes?




What you don't seem to be taking into consideration is that Mace is up there with Yoda as far as Jedi goes, which means he's much better than the other scrubs. Note the two no names got taken out instantly and Kit lasted a little longer, Mace then held his own well before Anakin showed up.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Considering how easily Mace defended against the Lightning, it can be assumed he would have defended himself well enough against other attacks.




Let's not forget how easily Obi-Wan handled it in Ep2, and Yoda all over the place, so the notion Palpy could have easily defeat Mace just using the force to defeat one of the two leading members of the Jedi Council sounds like a terrible stretch.

While it's hardly a definitive source the PotJ sourcebook has Mace stated out as a 7th level Jedi Guardian/6th level Jedi Master/ 5th level Jedi Weapon Master, for comparison Yoda is a 9th level Jedi Consular/ 8th level Jedi Master/3rd level Jedi Instructor. Both as of Ep2. According to the DS sourcebook Sidious is a 3rd level Noble/3rd level Dark Side Devotee/9th level Sith Lord and in the revised corebook Palpy is 4th level Noble/6th level Dark Side Devotee/10th level Sith Lord as of Ep6.

If the rpg folks got any kind of guidance on those, it gives a good indication Mace's whooping of Sidious is no act.



			
				Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> Need more screen captures?




Go for, only way to convince everyone (still may not work though).

p.s. Are you making them youself? If so how?



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Huh.  I thought the Old Republic ones, and the Sith Wars and all those "ancient" comics were the most cheesy and the least Star Wars.  The Darth Maul comic was my favorite.




Well keep in mind I stopped reading SW comics around the time of DE2, so things easily could have gotten worse after that.


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## John Crichton (May 22, 2005)

This particular topic is great simply because there is no correct answer until Lucas says something.  Speculation and being able to have an opinion about it is quite fun and allows each viewer to taylor what they want to believe to make the story work for them.

While watching it I got the distinct impression that the entire fight, just like Palpatine's play for Anakin's loyalty (I am the Sith Lord) was a calculated risk and somewhat staged.  Mace is a great lightsaber wielder and knows what he is doing which basically amounts to him not going out like a chump against Sideous.  Without Anakin there, he held his own and beat Yoda who is at least on the same power level as Windu.  So basically, Palpatine wants to accomplish two things:  gets Anakin's simpathy by showing him that the Jedi are corrupt and find a way to not have to hide the fact that he has been a dark side force user for quite some time.  He accomplished both.

But I could see him also playing the whole deformed thing up.  He's a great manipulator but he is also a great judge of situations/people.  Many of the events that happened were him subtly doing things and rolling with the punches to sway things his way.  Yeah, there was a master plan all along but not even Palpatine is powerful enough to control everyone and predict everything.  I don't think the lightning feedback did it to him, but it could have.  I'm just of the other opinion right now.    I reserve the right to change my opinion upon future viewings.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Let's not forget how easily Obi-Wan handled it in Ep2, and Yoda all over the place, so the notion Palpy could have easily defeat Mace just using the force to defeat one of the two leading members of the Jedi Council sounds like a terrible stretch.




First, read Eosin the Red post, he's read the novel, at least untill I get the chance to start it...  Secound, Yoda got punted across the room by force lighting in RotS, he also got his lightsaber knocked out of his hand in the senete screen by force lighting.  

Also note that in EP2 that it was Dooku who was using force lighting and not Palpatine...  That's a lot lower will save. 



			
				Welverin said:
			
		

> If the rpg folks got any kind of guidance on those, it gives a good indication Mace's whooping of Sidious is no act.




The official write-ups fluctuate in ever printing…  Just look at Palpatine’s dexterity of an 11…  The emperor was never seen in action before RotS.  His write up will change.    (If WotC ever publishes another freaking book.)


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> I also think that if Mace would have taken Anakin into confidence that it would have ended very differently.




I'm not so sure...  It really depends if Mace came to the same conclusion that Palpatine must die.  Something he didn’t state until the argument got heated as even when Palatine was down on the ground he was trying to arrest him.  So I really doubt it would have gone differently.



			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> In the same way that Yoda missed his chance when Anakin came to him with his fears. Instead of listening to a very young man, Yoda gave him some pseudo-philosipichal horse hooey. Basically, the Old Republic Jedi suck and brought all thier problems on themselves. Luckily, Luke was smart enough not to listen to Yoda or Ben and fall into the same trap that snared his father.




I agree, the Jedi brought this down upon themselves and the galaxy...  Palpatine is far to good at manipulating the truth to his advantage to go unchecked for so long.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 22, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... Eh, maybe.  That he resisted arrest didn't exactly speak volumes for his right to a fair trial.  If you attack a cop, expect him to attack you in return.




Having a cop defend himself isn't the same thing as giving the cop the right to become judge, jury, and executioner.  Though trust me, I would expect the cop/Jedi to do everything in his power to defend himself but it DOES become cold blooded murder when you try to use a weapon against a defenseless target.

Remember Anakin himself said that he shouldn’t have killed Dooku cause he was unarmed…  Mace’s actions weren’t those of the Jedi Code.


----------



## drothgery (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Having a cop defend himself isn't the same thing as giving the cop the right to become judge, jury, and executioner.  Though trust me, I would expect the cop/Jedi to do everything in his power to defend himself but it DOES become cold blooded murder when you try to use a weapon against a defenseless target.




Since Mace almost certainly couldn't cut Sidious off from the Force alone, it was impossible to know if Sidious was really defenseless. He'd already used Force Lightning while lying prone once in that fight.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Since Mace almost certainly couldn't cut Sidious off from the Force alone, it was impossible to know if Sidious was really defenseless. He'd already used Force Lightning while lying prone once in that fight.




Yup and was physical scared from it...  He was asking for mercy, a fellow Jedi was saying he must stand trail.  Mace took the time to look away from Palpatine also.  

It just strikes me that Mace’s action were very unjedi like.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> It just strikes me that Mace’s action were very unjedi like.




When dealing with a Sith Lord who is plotting to kill all the Jedi, has nearly the entire Senate under his control, and is perpatrating a war to consolidate more and more power? 

Mace was right. He WAS too dangerous to be left alive. But, I'd be willing to bet that Palpatine had foreseen at least those words, as he said the SAME thing about Dooku. Truthfully, Dooku wasn't that dangerous alive. He should have been the one to stand trial, with Palptine being the one killed...but, thanks to Palpy's manipulating of Anakin, it happened the other way around.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> When dealing with a Sith Lord who is plotting to kill all the Jedi, has nearly the entire Senate under his control, and is perpatrating a war to consolidate more and more power?




Yeah...  A Jedi is supposed to be above such things as an executioner.   



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Mace was right. He WAS too dangerous to be left alive. But, I'd be willing to bet that Palpatine had foreseen at least those words, as he said the SAME thing about Dooku.




Its quite possible, and I don't think I've ever said Mace's actions where wrong... just unjedi like.  (enjoy the DSP.  Thanks for taking one for the team.  )


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yup and was physical scared from it...  He was asking for mercy, a fellow Jedi was saying he must stand trail.  Mace took the time to look away from Palpatine also.
> 
> It just strikes me that Mace’s action were very unjedi like.



Well, but Palpatine was bluffing.  He'd have attacked Mace the first chance he got.  Which he did.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Yeah...  A Jedi is supposed to be above such things as an executioner.




I think you're being a bit too sympathic towards Palpatine. Remember, he'd just killed three Jedi moments earlier, and it was obvious he wasn't going to stop there given the chance. HOW can you leave that person alive? It would only allow them to kill more and more and gain more and more control.

There really was only one option that Mace had. It was not his first choice to kill him. He had tried TWICE to arrest Palpatine. Once before the whole fight...then once after he'd already one. Then, Palpatine goes all Sith lightning on Mace. After that, its fairly obvious this isn't someone that can be taken alive. Mace had given him the option as a good Jedi should, but was attacked at every turn, so was left with only one real option.


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I think you're being a bit too sympathic towards Palpatine.



I think we know what side Brother Shatterstone is on...


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> What about the Rogue Squadron comics?




Those were badass. I liked Baron Soontir Fel outta those!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I think you're being a bit too sympathic towards Palpatine.




And I think your letting your emotions cloud your judgment...  

Honesty, we’ve had a talk about DSP before and how you would “award” them and how I would isn’t exactly perfect so this disagreement isn’t that much of a surprise is it? (For the Record: I’m harsher than him.)

I don’t disagree that Mace’s actions weren’t overly wrong just unjedi like and worthy of a DSP but really a DSP isn’t the end of everything. Sure it might be a sign of a very bad day but it’s easily trumped by losing a hand.   and then getting electrocuted for a very long while, and then having a very long fall…  So really Mace’s DSP is just a minor footnote to the worse day of his life.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I think we know what side Brother Shatterstone is on...




Logic...  Emotion has no sway on me.


----------



## wingsandsword (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> There really was only one option that Mace had. It was not his first choice to kill him. He had tried TWICE to arrest Palpatine. Once before the whole fight...then once after he'd already one. Then, Palpatine goes all Sith lightning on Mace. After that, its fairly obvious this isn't someone that can be taken alive. Mace had given him the option as a good Jedi should, but was attacked at every turn, so was left with only one real option.



Exactly.  Mace didn't have a lot of options.  When they first tried to arrest him, he killed 3 Jedi Masters, the second time he tried, Mace barely survived the Force Lightning attack.  As he pointed out, he had the Senate eating out of the palm of his hand, even with ironclad proof it was highly unlikely he could be convicted.  The entire justice system was crumbling because of him, and turning him over to it would have probably lead to his acquittal, and Palpatine's same condemnation of the Jedi.

Did Mace have binders in his robe, and was planning to slap the cuffs on Palpatine and march him out of there and out to be booked?

So, what could you do, he was repeatedly resisting arrest with very lethal force, the justice system was so corrupt that he couldn't recieve a fair trial, and if you let him go the galaxy would plunge further into chaos.  Unlike the prior incident with Dooku that Anakin was referencing, Palpatine also wasn't helpless when Mace was over him.  He still had his hands and could throw lightning (as he very well proved), Dooku had his hands cut off when he was beheaded by Anakin, so in that respect he was, ahem, completely disarmed.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> The official write-ups fluctuate in ever printing…  Just look at Palpatine’s dexterity of an 11…  The emperor was never seen in action before RotS.  His write up will change.    (If WotC ever publishes another freaking book.)




If not, some fan will.   He probably channeled Dark Side Power to temporarily up his DEX score for the fight..


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> If not, some fan will.   He probably channeled Dark Side Power to temporarily up his DEX score for the fight..



Unless I'm missing it in his write up Palpatine doesn't have enhance ability force skill...  That said he could have pulled a 20 or used a force point to gain a +4 to his DEX, giving him a 15, but he looked a little bit more dexterous than that, at least to me he did.


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Logic...  Emotion has no sway on me.



Personally, I think logic dictates that any Jedi should've tried to do exactly what Mace did.  Un-Jedi-like?  Any Jedi in his right mind would've done the same.  It was 'kill or be killed.'


----------



## Flyspeck23 (May 23, 2005)

Welverin said:
			
		

> Go for, only way to convince everyone (still may not work though).




They could still be ignored.
All I wanted to do in above posting was to point people who entered the thread late and obviously ignored a good portion of the first page to the screen capture. While you _could_ say that Palpatine was always using a disguise -  even as Sidious - simply saying that he has been deformed in his appearances as Sidious prior to his battle with Windu is wishful thinking.





> p.s. Are you making them youself? If so how?




Yes, with WinDVD.


----------



## BrooklynKnight (May 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Those were badass. I liked Baron Soontir Fel outta those!




Is that the Bothan? Or Merrix's father?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Is that the Bothan? Or Merrix's father?



 Baron Fel is the best Imperial TIE Pilot. He flew with the 181st squadron of Interceptors at Endor, and for a short while after the fall of the Empire. After, he spent a short time in Rogue Squadron before heading out to the Unknown Regions and Chiss space. He's actually married to Wedge's sister.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Unless I'm missing it in his write up Palpatine doesn't have enhance ability force skill...  That said he could have pulled a 20 or used a force point to gain a +4 to his DEX, giving him a 15, but he looked a little bit more dexterous than that, at least to me he did.



 I don't think the D20 Star Wars system can really capture the Jedi based on this flick, at least as of the RCR, I think we may need a new core rule book.  

The idea of Yoda being the Jedi Consular and a lesser swordsman than the Guardian is moot.  The Emperor would now have to move a lot of his skill points to Enhance Ability and Battlemind which would blunt his other Jedi powers, considering he only has what 16 force user levels?  I think the Emperor & Yoda were prime examples of either a need for new rules or the need for post level 20 characters.  The Emperor is obviously a devastating swordsman based on his three swings = three dead Jedi Masters.


----------



## Psion (May 23, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I don't think the D20 Star Wars system can really capture the Jedi based on this flick, at least as of the RCR, I think we may need a new core rule book.




On the contrary, the sequences with Obi Wan and Grevious had me thinking that RCR was a pretty neat fit to the movie. As mentioned in the thread in the d20 other forum, the main thing I think needs revised is the way that sabers and force lightning interract. Obviously, sabers are a major defense against force lightning. (I also think I'd have to make the handling of severed limbs a bit more explicit...)


----------



## Desdichado (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> All evidence points to Palpatine being deformed by the lightning. However, I get the feeling most people like the idea of him hiding his appearance too much to let go of the idea.



Oh, certainly not _all_ the evidence.  We haven't even yet discussed the evidence of Anakin starting to take on the early stages of a "Sithy" appearance on Mustafar yet.


----------



## Wolf72 (May 23, 2005)

On a side note I wonder if the Jedi have a preferred Dr. for limb replacement (one they can refer 'victims' to as well.)


----------



## Desdichado (May 23, 2005)

Flyspeck23 said:
			
		

> Need more screen captures?



See, those screen captures to me point out that Darth Sideous already looked just like the Emperor of RotJ.


----------



## Wolf72 (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> …  So really Mace’s DSP is just a minor footnote to the worse day of his life.




ain't that the truth! ... at least he didn't go out like a punk though ... heck think of all the stories there could be about a one armed man in the bowels of Coruscant


----------



## Flyspeck23 (May 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> See, those screen captures to me point out that Darth Sideous already looked just like the Emperor of RotJ.




You asked for it 

Palpatine looks less deformed in RotJ than at the end of RotS. Still, he looks pretty normal in AotC compared to RotJ.
IMHO of course


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 23, 2005)

Palpie certianly doesn't look deformed in the screen capture.


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 23, 2005)

Who really believes Mace is dead? No body = didn't die. He is way too popular of a character to just off like that and judging by the fall, which we have seen other jedi survive, I suspect he will get his own comics, graphic novels, or books at some point in the future.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Personally, I think logic dictates that any Jedi should've tried to do exactly what Mace did.  Un-Jedi-like?  Any Jedi in his right mind would've done the same.  It was 'kill or be killed.'




If it was such a logical move, and he had the senate eating out of his palm, why try to arrest him in the first place?    

His control over the senate hadn’t fluctuated at all from the beginning of the scene to the end…    

And since people are more inclined to give into their emotions after/during combat I think its safe to assume that Mace’s attempt to execute Palpatine weren’t logical but emotional and therefore unJedi like.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Who really believes Mace is dead?




I honest do but... 



			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> He is way too popular of a character to just off like that and judging by the fall, which we have seen other jedi survive, I suspect he will get his own comics, graphic novels, or books at some point in the future.




I would buy them...


----------



## BiggusGeekus (May 23, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Who really believes Mace is dead? No body = didn't die. He is way too popular of a character to just off like that and judging by the fall, which we have seen other jedi survive, I suspect he will get his own comics, graphic novels, or books at some point in the future.





Holy cats, what do you have to do to kill these guys?  Cripes.  Even when you do manage to bump one of them off they come back as a blue glowie.


----------



## Psion (May 23, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Who really believes Mace is dead? No body = didn't die. He is way too popular of a character to just off like that and judging by the fall, which we have seen other jedi survive, I suspect he will get his own comics, graphic novels, or books at some point in the future.




Well, I would have happily left Boba Fett dead (yes, the existence of an EU series that rescue him from the Sarlacc annoys me.)

But Mace will be making an appearance should I run SW in the near future...


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> Cripes.  Even when you do manage to bump one of them off they come back as a blue glowie.




That's not something Mace is going to be able to do, at least so I think, as Yoda don't learn of this until later in the movie and only has a chance to train Obi-Wan....

Of coarse Anakin learns it, he's seen as a force spirit at the very end of RotJ, but that might because a special circumstance, as in Obi-Wan or Yoda actually pull it off for him.


----------



## Henry (May 23, 2005)

I voted for option 1; having watched it twice this weekend, my impression is that he is Mace's beeyatch by the end of that fight, and goes between _"I'm weak, I'm feeble, don't kill me"_ to _"Noooo, YOOOU DIE!"_ as the fight's tables turn. Anakin made the choice, and Anakin in my opinion was the one who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory; the story itself wouldn't have worked any other way in my opinion.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

One thing that bugs me about Palpatine scaring is that it seems like it comes from the inside out and not from the outsides.  (Like Anakin’s)

But I still think option one is the correct choice in retrospect.


----------



## Taelorn76 (May 23, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> I voted for option 1; having watched it twice this weekend, my impression is that he is Mace's beeyatch by the end of that fight, and goes between _"I'm weak, I'm feeble, don't kill me"_ to _"Noooo, YOOOU DIE!"_ as the fight's tables turn. Anakin made the choice, and Anakin in my opinion was the one who snatched defeat from the jaws of victory; the story itself wouldn't have worked any other way in my opinion.





Some else mentioned this before as well. But after seeing it the 2nd time I got the other impression. Once Mace goes out the window Paplpatine stands up like nothing is bothering him. I thing that the whole I am weak thing was a ploy to get Anikan to act and to make him think the Jedi had become the evil ones.


----------



## The_Universe (May 23, 2005)

I think Mace really was winning, but I think it's semi-retarded for the lightning alone to have made his face all wrinkly. I prefer that it both be that 1) he lost control of the situation, and would have lost/died without Anakin's intervention - we know he gets cocky at times, and doesn't always evaluate threats to his person properly (which is why Vader gets the drop on him 20 years later). and 2) He was wearing a force mask of some sort, and the expenditure of energy to hold Windu at bay long enough to summon potential aid destroyed the "mask," rather than just having electricity make his face weird. There's no evidence that Force Lightning does anything of the sort to anyone else it's used upon - and obviously, Sidious has a larger mastery of (and thus bigger deformity from) the Dark Side, which explains why Dooku isn't deformed.

That's my take.


----------



## Wolf72 (May 23, 2005)

what I gather from palpy's story at the opera thingee was that he had already cheated death and that would have something to do with his appearance.

I still like the idea of him using so much power in a limited span of time that he went all pruney ... Hah! Prune-y Palpatine ... no wonder he went to the dark side, all the other kids his age (Yoda!) probably picked on him at elementary force school!


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (May 23, 2005)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> what I gather from palpy's story at the opera thingee was that he had already cheated death and that would have something to do with his appearance.




Yeah, I think the, "Only one has cheated death was in reference to himself..."

Pelagius was dead…

Note: cheating death was/is prolonging one’s natural life span and nothing else.  Lightsabers, long falls into reactors is still, troublesomely, deadly.


----------



## The_Universe (May 23, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Who really believes Mace is dead? No body = didn't die. He is way too popular of a character to just off like that and judging by the fall, which we have seen other jedi survive, I suspect he will get his own comics, graphic novels, or books at some point in the future.



 I thought the same thing. He's totally still out there.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> There's no evidence that Force Lightning does anything of the sort to anyone else it's used upon - and obviously, Sidious has a larger mastery of (and thus bigger deformity from) the Dark Side, which explains why Dooku isn't deformed.




But we have NEVER seen Force Lightning being used on a target for that long without stop. Even Luke wasn't punished that much in RotJ. As he's using it, you can see his face not only changing, but there's SMOKE to show its burning him, too. So, yes, Force Lightning can cause such deforming if used non-stop like that.

It was all Palpy's own damned fault for not stopping when it was blocked.


----------



## The_Universe (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> But we have NEVER seen Force Lightning being used on a target for that long without stop. Even Luke wasn't punished that much in RotJ. As he's using it, you can see his face not only changing, but there's SMOKE to show its burning him, too. So, yes, Force Lightning can cause such deforming if used non-stop like that.
> 
> It was all Palpy's own damned fault for not stopping when it was blocked.



 I don't think we *know* that, though. You're free to use your own interpretation, but I don't think it's painfully obvious, either. I'd just as soon George *not* explain it one way or the other, and leave the ambiguity, anyway.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

The_Universe said:
			
		

> I don't think we *know* that, though. You're free to use your own interpretation, but I don't think it's painfully obvious, either. I'd just as soon George *not* explain it one way or the other, and leave the ambiguity, anyway.



 How do we not know that its the longest we've seen someone being Force Lightninged?

And if it wasn't deforming him...why was he smoking afterwards just like Luke was after he got lightninged? It HAD to be the lightning. He didn't look THAT bad before, as shown in the screencaps above. But I guess people would rather have their own explanations than what's fairly clearly shown on screen.


----------



## Desdichado (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> But we have NEVER seen Force Lightning being used on a target for that long without stop. Even Luke wasn't punished that much in RotJ. As he's using it, you can see his face not only changing, but there's SMOKE to show its burning him, too. So, yes, Force Lightning can cause such deforming if used non-stop like that.
> 
> It was all Palpy's own damned fault for not stopping when it was blocked.



Actually, I believe Luke got a bigger dose of the stuff than that, even.  Not like I sat there with a stopwatch or anything, but that was my impression.

Also, I've heard second or third hand (or worse) that Ian McDiarmid stated somewhere in an interview or fan appearance, or something, that his "Palpatine" face truly was just a mask.  I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm gonna Google around a bit and see if I can find a more reliable report of that.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Actually, I believe Luke got a bigger dose of the stuff than that, even.  Not like I sat there with a stopwatch or anything, but that was my impression.




I'm fairly sure it was shorter...and it also had breaks here and there for the Emperor to due his "I'm evil, I win; You're good, you die" speech. With Sith, we see the whole lightning thing straight, and it doesn't stop at all.

Obviously, my impression is that what we see in Sith was the longest, and its definitely the only non-stop lightning use that actually hits. Of course, this'll be one of those things that may be answered on the RotS DVD commentary...


----------



## Desdichado (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> I'm fairly sure it was shorter...and it also had breaks here and there for the Emperor to due his "I'm evil, I win; You're good, you die" speech. With Sith, we see the whole lightning thing straight, and it doesn't stop at all.
> 
> Obviously, my impression is that what we see in Sith was the longest, and its definitely the only non-stop lightning use that actually hits. Of course, this'll be one of those things that may be answered on the RotS DVD commentary...



I'm pretty sure that just the last, non-stop dose of Luke was even longer than that, and that doesn't even count the earlier doses the Emperor gave him in between gloating, "look how dark I am!" speeches.

I might just time them after all!  Also, you didn't respond to what I thought was actually the more interesting part of my post, though...


----------



## The_Universe (May 23, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> How do we not know that its the longest we've seen someone being Force Lightninged?
> 
> And if it wasn't deforming him...why was he smoking afterwards just like Luke was after he got lightninged? It HAD to be the lightning. He didn't look THAT bad before, as shown in the screencaps above. But I guess people would rather have their own explanations than what's fairly clearly shown on screen.



There's no doubt he got hit by lightning for a long time. Lightning making a person smoke makes some sense, and is well within the established range of consequences for being hit by force lighting. Is it really longer than Luke's bout with it, though? I don't think so, but I didn't time it, either. 

Is it really logical to assume that a certain amount of lightning makes a face wrinkly? 15 seconds will do it, but 10 seconds won't? The onset seems nearly instantaneous in the film (though the wrinkles do get worse over time), which would make one wonder why Luke and Mace aren't wrinkle-machines, or at least sort of wrinkly. 

Does it only make Dark Sider's faces' wrinkly? That can't be the case, because Vader himself takes a decent dose in Jedi - and he's just pasty, not really wrinkly at all. 

In all, I'll buy that the lightning is the proximate cause for the Emperor's wrinkles. But it just doesn't make sense for it to be the sole cause. Something else was happening - and a mask coming down seems as logical as anything (though hardly the only sensical answer).


----------



## Eosin the Red (May 23, 2005)

I'd like to see the article if you can find it, with context to make sure what he is talking about. I could easily see him saying "Palpatine is a mask worn by Sidious" and meaning just that - Palpie is a persona created and tweaked to gain position in the senate and take over.


----------



## Jdvn1 (May 23, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> If it was such a logical move, and he had the senate eating out of his palm, why try to arrest him in the first place?
> 
> His control over the senate hadn’t fluctuated at all from the beginning of the scene to the end…



That's where 'kill or be killed' comes in.  It didn't have to do with power in the senate, but power to kill Mace.


> And since people are more inclined to give into their emotions after/during combat I think its safe to assume that Mace’s attempt to execute Palpatine weren’t logical but emotional and therefore unJedi like.



Possibly true, but a Jedi aren't supposed to give into their emotions like that.  Mace did say, "He's too dangerous to live!" or whatever.  Not necessarily emotional, but I can see it going either way.  Maybe it was against the Jedi Code of Conduct, but I still think any Jedi in his right mind would've done the same.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Also, you didn't respond to what I thought was actually the more interesting part of my post, though...




I seem to vaguely remember the interview...however I don't remember him litereally saying it was a mask. Almost more of a metaphorical "I'm evil but no one can tell" kind of mask rather than a physical one.



			
				The_Universe said:
			
		

> In all, I'll buy that the lightning is the proximate cause for the Emperor's wrinkles. But it just doesn't make sense for it to be the sole cause. Something else was happening - and a mask coming down seems as logical as anything (though hardly the only sensical answer).




Well, from the looks of it, Mace put his lightsaber down extremely close so that all of it was reflecting back to the Emperor. So, he was definitely getting it. However, its possible that burning from the lightning coupled with his expending all his energy to do it(or at least a good amount of it...its impossible to say if he was faking the tiredness when he stopped or not). 

A case could be made that using so much energy to keep up that Force Lightning drained him physically as well as the burning from it. However, it definitely had to do with the lightning, as he wasn't anywhere near looking like that before the lightning.


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## Plane Sailing (May 23, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I don't think the D20 Star Wars system can really capture the Jedi based on this flick, at least as of the RCR, I think we may need a new core rule book.




Too true! Without some mechanism for actual parrying in lightsabre duels RCR ones would last all of about 5 rounds...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 23, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Too true! Without some mechanism for actual parrying in lightsabre duels RCR ones would last all of about 5 rounds...



 Its all in the flavor. Parry = not being hit OR Parry = Near Misss = Vitality damage.

I've run far too many lightsaber duels in the Revised system, and all the lightsaber combats last a good amount of time if there's movement going on instead of just standing and fighting...which is pretty much the same as the movies. They last a long time because they cover a large amount of ground.


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## Darth K'Trava (May 24, 2005)

> Originally Posted by Darth K'Trava
> Those were badass. I liked Baron Soontir Fel outta those!







			
				BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Is that the Bothan? Or Merrix's father?




Nope. He's human. A former TIE fighter pilot ace who turned to the Rebellion. Also the father of Jag Fel who's courtin' Jaina Solo in the novels.


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## Darth K'Trava (May 24, 2005)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Some else mentioned this before as well. But after seeing it the 2nd time I got the other impression. Once Mace goes out the window Paplpatine stands up like nothing is bothering him. I thing that the whole I am weak thing was a ploy to get Anikan to act and to make him think the Jedi had become the evil ones.




I wholeheartedly agree that it was a ploy to get Anakin to turn on Mace. To make Mace look the monster, about to strike down a "completely helpless" man can do wonders for tugging at the "heartstrings" of a young Jedi out to prove himself.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> But we have NEVER seen Force Lightning being used on a target for that long without stop. Even Luke wasn't punished that much in RotJ.




Luke was hit for 35 seconds in RotJ at one point no stop...  Palpatine wasn't hit for much longer than that, if it was that long at all, I’ve seen it three times now and it didn’t seem incredible long…  but if it was I can safely assure you that Palpatine’s scaring was happening long before the 35 second mark happened.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> As he's using it, you can see his face not only changing, but there's SMOKE to show its burning him, too. So, yes, Force Lightning can cause such deforming if used non-stop like that.




Another issues, and it’s a big one is that the damage is symmetrical.  It has a left and a right hemisphere, not possible by random chance, or at least highly unlikely.  There are also no scorched marks; this is highly common in people that suffer high current electrical shocks…  

All in all, if his face was getting burnt off it was only to show the corrupt that was below the surface.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> That's where 'kill or be killed' comes in.  It didn't have to do with power in the senate, but power to kill Mace.



No Mace's fear leads to the kill or be killed reaction of I must kill him... 



			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Possibly true, but a Jedi aren't supposed to give into their emotions like that.  Mace did say, "He's too dangerous to live!" or whatever.  Not necessarily emotional, but I can see it going either way.  Maybe it was against the Jedi Code of Conduct, but I still think any Jedi in his right mind would've done the same.




As I said it was a "take the DSP for the team sort of movement" but it was against the Jedi Code.


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## Jdvn1 (May 24, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> No Mace's fear leads to the kill or be killed reaction of I must kill him...



I don't think it's so clear.  It could've been as much as an awareness of necessity as emotion.  It's not like he's a rookie Jedi, and he's been in quite a number of duels. 







			
				Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> As I said it was a "take the DSP for the team sort of movement" but it was against the Jedi Code.



DSP? Again, I don't think it's so clear.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> As I said it was a "take the DSP for the team sort of movement" but it was against the Jedi Code.




Explain how offering mercy twice(arrest instead of death) is not following the Jedi Code? Mace did the right thing. There was no choice. That wouldn't be a DSP and is definitely not against the Jedi Code. He wasn't acting out of emotion or anger...it was simply what had to be done. Palpatine had attacked him at EACH offer of arrest(mercy).

Where do you draw the line? If you're that strict, then Jedi shouldn't kill ANYONE at all.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Explain how offering mercy twice(arrest instead of death) is not following the Jedi Code? Mace did the right thing. There was no choice. That wouldn't be a DSP and is definitely not against the Jedi Code. He wasn't acting out of emotion or anger...it was simply what had to be done. Palpatine had attacked him at EACH offer of arrest(mercy).




Ummm what about after the time he said he was too weak to maintain it... Where was the mercy then?  None, "I'll end this now."  That's hardly mercy.



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Where do you draw the line? If you're that strict, then Jedi shouldn't kill ANYONE at all.




DSP isn't the end all of be alls...  See my earlier post, but Mace's DSP was just a footnote and a very bad day for him.


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## BiggusGeekus (May 24, 2005)

jenesyss said:
			
		

> Just my two cents




Hey!  Welcome to the forums!


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

AMG and Jdvn1, truce?  I don't think any of us is going to be able to change people's opinions of Mace’s actions.  So lets just agree to disagree, okay?


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## Jdvn1 (May 24, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> AMG and Jdvn1, truce?  I don't think any of us is going to be able to change people's opinions of Mace’s actions.  So lets just agree to disagree, okay?



  Like I said, I could see it going either way, that it wasn't clear.  A truce is just fine by me.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Like I said, I could see it going either way, that it wasn't clear.  A truce is just fine by me.



 ...next time we work together. [/Obi-Wan voice]


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## Jdvn1 (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> ...next time we work together. [/Obi-Wan voice]



Wait, I thought _you_ were the chosen one!


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## Taelorn76 (May 24, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Ummm what about after the time he said he was too weak to maintain it... Where was the mercy then?  None, "I'll end this now."  That's hardly mercy.




I think being the Master that he is he saw through the _I am weak and helpless_ ploy.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

One last thing to add to this to break the truce...

Been playing the RotS video game, and it expands on a few scenes. The Mace fight is a big one(as its an actual fight in the game). Intersetingly, at the beginning of it, Anakin is saying all the things BS is here. Coincidence? I think not!


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Been playing the RotS video game, and it expands on a few scenes. The Mace fight is a big one(as its an actual fight in the game). Intersetingly, at the beginning of it, Anakin is saying all the things BS is here. Coincidence? I think not!




I’m all honesty I've never played the game and you know that sad truth cause I was very proud of the fact that I made it to the Star Forge world in KotoR just the other day.   

So really it’s just a coincidence... or I'm very good with reading peoples reactions and their inner motives at which point I’m obviously right about Mace.


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## Aust Diamondew (May 24, 2005)

I voted 1 but I like number 2 also.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> So really it’s just a coincidence... or I'm very good with reading peoples reactions and their inner motives at which point I’m obviously right about Mace.




...or you're taking your final steps along the dark path...


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## Eosin the Red (May 24, 2005)

I don't get the opinion that Mace was scared. Generally speaking, he just doesn't get scared especially when he is on his feet holding the only light sabre. Mace does train in a combat style that is deliberately leathal and flirts with the DS anyway (Too perform correctly you must lose yourself in the joy of violence). One time before Mace faced a similar situation with Dooku - Mace knows that he can kill Dooku and he knows he can STOP the war before it even starts but doing so will cause the deaths of dozens of Jedi in the arena. He chose to help his friends thinking it was the "jedi thing to do" and billions died because of it. Here he is again presented with the exact same situation - he can take one life and save millions or billions. This time he made the right choice, Sidious would die.

[most of the info on Mace and Dooku is in Shatterpoint, the novel which describes Mace's unusual force powers but even without the novel the parallels should be pretty obvious]


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## Plane Sailing (May 24, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Its all in the flavor. Parry = not being hit OR Parry = Near Misss = Vitality damage.
> 
> I've run far too many lightsaber duels in the Revised system, and all the lightsaber combats last a good amount of time if there's movement going on instead of just standing and fighting...which is pretty much the same as the movies. They last a long time because they cover a large amount of ground.




But then you have to have the jedi using 'heal self' all the time to get their vitality back between the 5d8 damage-per-attack lightsabre blows. Nobody would be trading full attacks in RCR like we 'see' in the film.

I know that some people are happy with flavour text in these circumstances, but I think it is far inferior to a mechanics approach. It is like deflecting blasters in RCR vs the movies. In the RCR it is almost impossible to make it happen, in the movies it is a fundamental defensive technique which does an excellent job.

Cheers


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 24, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Too true! Without some mechanism for actual parrying in lightsabre duels RCR ones would last all of about 5 rounds...



 Yeah, but what I was getting at is I don't think the Guardian/Consular thing exists, I there should be a base Jedi class and then maybe some PRC's. I don't think you can model the Emperor or Yoda with just 20 levels either.  I don't know why they put the L20 cap in SWD20 myself.  I wonder if a M&M style OGL system would work better?


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## Psion (May 24, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Yeah, but what I was getting at is I don't think the Guardian/Consular thing exists, I there should be a base Jedi class and then maybe some PRC's. I don't think you can model the Emperor or Yoda with just 20 levels either.




You'll note that the RCR _doesn't_.



> I don't know why they put the L20 cap in SWD20 myself.  I wonder if a M&M style OGL system would work better?




After seeing Sith, I am convinced that the class level approach works very well... especially after the grevious fight. I just think the injury and force rules need a little work. (One thing I really don't like about the existing force rules is the chained "roll to set DC" thing and would rather only one roll be involved. Psychic's handbook does this.)

But yeah, I don't think the RCR does the Emperor justice. But it's not that far off... but it would sort of explain why Mace was laying the smack down on him until vader stepped in. But the "he was just faking" approach would suggest that the Emperor is epic level if you buy that Mace is 18th and Yoda is 20th. The final battle with Yoda and the Emperor also suggests that the Emperor has a few levels on him as well.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 24, 2005)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> But then you have to have the jedi using 'heal self' all the time to get their vitality back between the 5d8 damage-per-attack lightsabre blows. Nobody would be trading full attacks in RCR like we 'see' in the film.
> 
> I know that some people are happy with flavour text in these circumstances, but I think it is far inferior to a mechanics approach. It is like deflecting blasters in RCR vs the movies. In the RCR it is almost impossible to make it happen, in the movies it is a fundamental defensive technique which does an excellent job.
> 
> Cheers




Need to get you into one of my Jedi games. 

We've got Jedi trading full attacks, moving across the terrain in duels, and still taking the fights on for long amounts of time. Not only that, but the flavour text definitely works.

And, even with mulitple different groups of players, I see Deflect(defense) and (attack) used all the time to a great deal of success. Its not very hard for it to happe at all.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (May 24, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> You'll note that the RCR _doesn't_.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I just wonder how much "smack" Mace was laying down.  Four Jedi walked in.  Sideous took three swings basically that killed three of them, Masters too I believe.  Then he fights Windu.  I think that was all a ruse for Anakin's benefit, he foresaw the future and knew how it would go and how he needed to put Anakin in a position to kill Windu and make his journey to the darkside.  I'm of the opinion that it was all staged.  But Mace was the #2 Jedi Master so him being able to defeat Sideous isn't farfeched...Maybe I'll read the novel.


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## BrooklynKnight (May 24, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Yeah, but what I was getting at is I don't think the Guardian/Consular thing exists, I there should be a base Jedi class and then maybe some PRC's. I don't think you can model the Emperor or Yoda with just 20 levels either. I don't know why they put the L20 cap in SWD20 myself. I wonder if a M&M style OGL system would work better?




Personally I'd take the  D20Modern/Future style of approach

Jedi Knight is an Advanced Class and Jedi Master is a Prestige Class, the advanced class simply requring the Force Sensetive feat (and training) to access.

I'd also include various Jedi backrounds to provide that feat for free.


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## Brother Shatterstone (May 24, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> I don't get the opinion that Mace was scared.




I can only go with the facial expressions as they are given...  He doesn’t look all that serene/neutral to me. 



			
				Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> One time before Mace faced a similar situation with Dooku - Mace knows that he can kill Dooku and he knows he can STOP the war before it even starts but doing so will cause the deaths of dozens of Jedi in the arena. He chose to help his friends thinking it was the "jedi thing to do" and billions died because of it. Here he is again presented with the exact same situation - he can take one life and save millions or billions. This time he made the right choice, Sidious would die.




Thanks.   If I'm reading that correctly then the first time, with Dooku, Mace did the correct Jedi thing, and with Sidious he didn't follow the Jedi Code...  

On a side note: Anyhow would be foolish not to get into one AMG's games.


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## Eosin the Red (May 25, 2005)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Thanks.   If I'm reading that correctly then the first time, with Dooku, Mace did the correct Jedi thing, and with Sidious he didn't follow the Jedi Code...




He did things correctly by the Old Republic Jedi tenants which may or not be in sink with the light side of the force. No matter how you cut it "restoring balance" resulted in the utter destruction of the Old Jedi and nearly all of their teachings.    

The point of Shatterpoint and of the Mace/Dooku thoughts was Mace's understanding that the Jedi make piss poor generals, no matter how skilled, primarily their decisions will not be made using sound tactics but will instead be based on individual perceptions (Iin this case Mace's distaste for striking Dooku down without giving him warning or the chance to recant and return to the light). Mace refuses to strike down Dooku and billions of people die because of it. That is hard to rationalize with the force especially with Obi-One telling Anakin to forget about the injured (dead?) Padme and keep his head in the game. Her one life is not wrth the mission. 

This whole thing takes up several pages of Shatterpoint and is done much better than my pathetic retelling. The whole point is that the Jedi will risk everything to do something like save Yoda, they won't attack when the enemy is in a disadvantaged position (surprise attack), or exploit a weakness (starve the enemy out) - the exact things that need to be done to win a war.



> On a side note: Anyhow would be foolish not to get into one AMG's games.




Say what???


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 25, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> He did things correctly by the Old Republic Jedi tenants which may or not be in sink with the light side of the force. No matter how you cut it "restoring balance" resulted in the utter destruction of the Old Jedi and nearly all of their teachings.
> 
> The point of Shatterpoint and of the Mace/Dooku thoughts was Mace's understanding that the Jedi make piss poor generals, no matter how skilled, primarily their decisions will not be made using sound tactics but will instead be based on individual perceptions (Iin this case Mace's distaste for striking Dooku down without giving him warning or the chance to recant and return to the light). Mace refuses to strike down Dooku and billions of people die because of it. That is hard to rationalize with the force especially with Obi-One telling Anakin to forget about the injured (dead?) Padme and keep his head in the game. Her one life is not wrth the mission.
> 
> ...



Maybe that´s actually a good protection to avoid the Jedi ever starting a war against non-Jedi. They are so indoctrinated in their Jedi "morals" that they´ll never fight unfair...
But maybe it´s just a counterpoint to the fact that Jedi are simply superior to non-jedi. They should be able to defeat you without backstabbing or besieging you...


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 25, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> No matter how you cut it "restoring balance" resulted in the utter destruction of the Old Jedi and nearly all of their teachings.




He brought balance to The Force...not the Jedi. The Jedi didn't think of that possibility. 



> Say what???




BS likes the Star Wars games I run. And, considering how many people complain about what doesn't happen in thier SWd20 games, I should really run a game for all of them to see that its possible to run a VERY Star Wars feeling game with the d20 rules.

i.e. Jedi using Deflect on blasters all the time, movement during fights instead of just standing in one place and attacking, using the Force in more inventive ways rather, etc etc.


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## Eosin the Red (May 26, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> They should be able to defeat you without backstabbing or besieging you...




But can the 10,000 jedi defeat the millions of trillions of dissenters?

[trigger SW pet peeve] Sometimes SW numbers are freaky unrealistic (A Superstar Destroyer has how many crew members?).[/SW pet peeve]


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## Eosin the Red (May 26, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> BS likes the Star Wars games I run. And, considering how many people complain about what doesn't happen in thier SWd20 games, I should really run a game for all of them to see that its possible to run a VERY Star Wars feeling game with the d20 rules.
> 
> i.e. Jedi using Deflect on blasters all the time, movement during fights instead of just standing in one place and attacking, using the Force in more inventive ways rather, etc etc.




I know we are gonna disagree on what equals balance which is why I phrased things the way I did     We can meet somewhere near the middle ground with "but the Republic Jedi and the bulk of their teachings were destroyed, incidentially or not in the restoration of balance." It allows agreement on the outcome, if not the intent and what exatly satisfies the requirements of "balance."   

Sounds like you run a good SW game. I will skirt over and do a little reading.


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