# Tensir's Floating disk of do everything + Cranky DM



## Rowe (Jul 29, 2008)

Is there a comprehensive list of what Tensir's floating disc can and cannot do

I say
* It floats on water
* Players can ride on it
* 1 player standing up
* 2 players counted as a grapple
* 2 players can sit on it back to back
* I can control the height of the floating disc? lets say to scoop something out of a shallow water.
* Hovers over the ground in a manner which does not trigger any motion, or pressure sensitive material below the belly of the disc.
* if height can be controlled i could use it as a snow sled?
* It can scale any surface but a vertical sher face.
* can use multiple Tensir disks to carry extremely heavy objects. I.E.  snap the wheels off a carriage. use 2 disks to float the carriage back to town.
* when siting / standing on the disk normal movements like shifting, expeditious retreat, the disk moves under you at those speeds


Any objections?  Some one shed some light on what your campaign allows to be done with things like this?


----------



## unan oranis (Jul 29, 2008)

Rowe said:


> Is there a comprehensive list of what Tensir's floating disc can and cannot do
> 
> I say
> * It floats on water




Me too, though the ritual specifically states that the disc will drop if the ground gives way below it, so theres lots of room to rule it sinks.



Rowe said:


> * Players can ride on it
> * 1 player standing up
> * 2 players counted as a grapple
> * 2 players can sit on it back to back




It seems logical and more or less universally accepted that a person could stand on the disc.
According to its description, it really sounds like you could pile a lot of people on.  At least four, though more than one would deffinatly cause combat disadvantages.





Rowe said:


> * I can control the height of the floating disc? lets say to scoop something out of a shallow water.
> * Hovers over the ground in a manner which does not trigger any motion, or pressure sensitive material below the belly of the disc.
> * if height can be controlled i could use it as a snow sled?
> * It can scale any surface but a vertical sher face.




Hard ones, for sure.  If it doesn't push down on the surface below it at all, water and snow should be passable.  

On the other hand if the disc can fall, it should be able to slide as a sled.

You'd have to call it for maximum incline, but anything you could do with up to a 10 in climb seems reasonable in my opinion.





Rowe said:


> * can use multiple Tensir disks to carry extremely heavy objects. I.E.  snap the wheels off a carriage. use 2 disks to float the carriage back to town.




I'm not sure if there is a specific rule about maximum number of rituals, but there is a precedent for maximum number of prestidigitations going at once (3).

I personally would say one wizard, one disc.



Rowe said:


> * when siting / standing on the disk normal movements like shifting, expeditious retreat, the disk moves under you at those speeds
> 
> Any objections?  Some one shed some light on what your campaign allows to be done with things like this?





Well the basics of the issue are this:

MESSING AROUND WITH TENSURES FLOATING DISC

Cons:  Bodies of water as an engaging obstacle eliminated;  potentially horse drawn or greater speeds if creativly used - again eliminating some engaging obstacles;  "cheap" or "boring" pass through certain traps.

Pros:  Creativity on part of player. feeling of "beating the system" or "magic", fun and exciting.


I think if you see these coming, and just amend tensures floating disc to be capable of some of the tricks at higher level (2-4), you'll end up with wizards who get to game the system harmlessly for a bit and then you'll be into paragon where it won't matter as much anyway.

Just my opinion - actually I take that back.  "Say yes" is written in the dmg somewhere so I'm totally right.


----------



## MarkB (Jul 29, 2008)

Rowe said:


> Is there a comprehensive list of what Tensir's floating disc can and cannot do
> 
> I say
> * It floats on water




No. It floats above ground, and that's all.



> * Players can ride on it
> * 1 player standing up
> * 2 players counted as a grapple
> * 2 players can sit on it back to back




Sounds fine.



> * I can control the height of the floating disc? lets say to scoop something out of a shallow water.




No. It floats a foot off the ground, averaged across the disc's area. If that means that one edge scrapes the ground, then the terrain is too steep for the disc and it will have trouble moving.



> * Hovers over the ground in a manner which does not trigger any motion, or pressure sensitive material below the belly of the disc.




Yes.



> * if height can be controlled i could use it as a snow sled?
> * It can scale any surface but a vertical sher face.




No. See above.



> * can use multiple Tensir disks to carry extremely heavy objects. I.E.  snap the wheels off a carriage. use 2 disks to float the carriage back to town.




Not specified, but I'd rule that if you conjure a new disc, the existing one ceases. In any case, you could only direct one disc at a time, making synchronisation near-impossible.



> * when siting / standing on the disk normal movements like shifting, expeditious retreat, the disk moves under you at those speeds




No. The only directed movement the disc can make is a normal move up to your speed. No shifts, no expeditious retreat. Standing on it is irrelevant to this.



> Any objections?  Some one shed some light on what your campaign allows to be done with things like this?




Only what it says on the tin.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 29, 2008)

I recently starting using my Tenser's as an oil bomb platform. I fill the concave disk with oil and ignite it with my scorching burst. Then I move the disk around combat and catch people on fire!


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jul 29, 2008)

Rowe said:


> Is there a comprehensive list of what Tensir's floating disc can and cannot do
> 
> I say
> * It floats on water



I would say yes,1 foot above







> * Players can ride on it



Yep 3' space counts as squeezing







> * 1 player standing up



yep







> * 2 players counted as a grapple



sort of, I reckon 4 but not in combat, no grapple but balance checks for four, maybe







> * 2 players can sit on it back to back



yep, no balance checks...3 or 4 would make checks







> * I can control the height of the floating disc? lets say to scoop something out of a shallow water.



no way:" that floats a foot off the ground"; that is it 1 foot







> * Hovers over the ground in a manner which does not trigger any motion, or pressure sensitive material below the belly of the disc.



yep it is not a hovercraft but a magic effect







> * if height can be controlled i could use it as a snow sled?



nope 1 foot







> * It can scale any surface but a vertical sher face.



yep but hard dc's to stay on it...same as climb dc







> * can use multiple Tensir disks to carry extremely heavy objects. I.E.  snap the wheels off a carriage. use 2 disks to float the carriage back to town.



yep as long as they are within 5 squares







> * when siting / standing on the disk normal movements like shifting, expeditious retreat, the disk moves under you at those speeds



no way, it moves at your speed. PHB:"Your speed is your base walking speed, in contrast to your speed while swimming or, if you’re affected by a power, flying. etc". Shifting is a move action, not a move- as is Exp Retreat.

just IMHO, IMC as DM


----------



## fissionessence (Jul 29, 2008)

I definitely don't think the disk should float on water; it stays 1 foot above the ground, and water is not ground. The disk would drop the the bottom of the body of water.



> I recently starting using my Tenser's as an oil bomb platform.




One of my friends said that he played a 3.5 game where a guy had a bunch of laborers pile a whole bunch of rocks on his disk, then he moved it and let the momentum drop the rubble on an opponent. I forget all the details, though.

~


----------



## Majushi (Jul 29, 2008)

Tenser's Floating Disc is only a 3 foot diameter.

Considering a PC takes up a 5 foot sq usually, and what? half that when "squeezing".

How do you envison sticking more than one person on a 3 foot diameter plate?


----------



## Jack Colby (Jul 29, 2008)

I simply allow it to do whatever makes sense in a given situation given the bare minimum stats in the book description.  So far all it's been used for is to cart back characters who fell in battle while the party retreats for an extended rest.


----------



## Jack Colby (Jul 29, 2008)

Majushi said:


> Tenser's Floating Disc is only a 3 foot diameter.
> 
> Considering a PC takes up a 5 foot sq usually, and what? half that when "squeezing".
> 
> How do you envison sticking more than one person on a 3 foot diameter plate?





We did it, we envisioned them sitting back to back on the disc.  Why would you hold PCs outside of an encounter to the 5 foot square?


----------



## Daniel D. Fox (Jul 29, 2008)

The real question is whether I can use it for my level 24 shepherd as a hat to shield myself from the sun, or put a Magic Mouth on the inside of it to make it look like it's about to swallow me whole?!


----------



## Syrsuro (Jul 29, 2008)

Moniker said:


> The real question is whether I can use it for my level 24 shepherd as a hat to shield myself from the sun, or put a Magic Mouth on the inside of it to make it look like it's about to swallow me whole?!




As a force disk, I'd rule it is transparent (or at least translucent).  However, I suppose it is still possible that it could block UV rays and thus prevent sunburn.....

Carl


----------



## amysrevenge (Jul 29, 2008)

The 4E test for questions like this is:

Does it give an "unfair" advantage?  If so, then choose the most restictive rules interpretation.  If not, then choose the most liberal rules interpretation.

The difficulty is to decide what is "unfair"


----------



## Mistwell (Jul 29, 2008)

Rowe said:


> Is there a comprehensive list of what Tensir's floating disc can and cannot do
> 
> I say
> * It floats on water




Debatable.  Water is not usually considered ground, unless you have a water walking ability.



> * Players can ride on it




I agree



> * 1 player standing up



\

i would require an acrobatics check to do this



> * 2 players counted as a grapple




I do not understand what you mean by this



> * 2 players can sit on it back to back




I'd probably allow that, but only for transport and not during combat since you couldn't really aim well like that...also, it depends on their weight of course.



> * I can control the height of the floating disc? lets say to scoop something out of a shallow water.




Nope.  It floats 1 ft. above the ground, not more, not less.



> * Hovers over the ground in a manner which does not trigger any motion, or pressure sensitive material below the belly of the disc.




I agree



> * if height can be controlled i could use it as a snow sled?




See above



> * It can scale any surface but a vertical sher face.




It floats above the ground.  If it's ground, it should be able to move over it.



> * can use multiple Tensir disks to carry extremely heavy objects. I.E.  snap the wheels off a carriage. use 2 disks to float the carriage back to town.




I would probably allow it but you need two simultaneous move actions to do it...



> * when siting / standing on the disk normal movements like shifting, expeditious retreat, the disk moves under you at those speeds




I do not understand what you mean by this.  You can move it with a move action based on your speed, or it can follow you at the listed speed.


----------



## Banon (Jul 29, 2008)

Although I love to encourage creativity in my campaign, nothing irks me more than when people treat Tensir's Floating Disc like it's Tensir's Magic Carpet Ride. If you say, let people ride it across a blank of wood, next they'll try to ride it over a tight rope, and finally ride it over a single strand of spider web bridging some gap. Allow them to hover over water, and next thing you know, they're crossing chasms floating on the Oxygen molecules beneath the disc. 

Simply put, TFD should follow 1 simple rule of physics: For any force there is an equal and opposite force. If you put X amount of force ontop of TFD, the dics must exert that much 'magical' force on the ground to sustain it's hover. If the ground cannot support that force, it gives way. This means TFD should trigger preasure sensitve plates, fall through water, and not fly through the air.

It's a Mule for moving stuff, not a mode of transportation.


----------



## Tale (Jul 29, 2008)

Banon said:


> Although I love to encourage creativity in my campaign, nothing irks me more than when people treat Tensir's Floating Disc like it's Tensir's Magic Carpet Ride. If you say, let people ride it across a blank of wood, next they'll try to ride it over a tight rope, and finally ride it over a single strand of spider web bridging some gap. Allow them to hover over water, and next thing you know, they're crossing chasms floating on the Oxygen molecules beneath the disc.
> 
> Simply put, TFD should follow 1 simple rule of physics: For any force there is an equal and opposite force. If you put X amount of force ontop of TFD, the dics must exert that much 'magical' force on the ground to sustain it's hover. If the ground cannot support that force, it gives way. This means TFD should trigger preasure sensitve plates, fall through water, and not fly through the air.
> 
> It's a Mule for moving stuff, not a mode of transportation.




Screw physics. I like "magic is sapient." You do something stupid or try to get away with something you know you shouldn't, magic gets back at you.

Tenser's Magic Carpet Ride might decide that the middle of a large body of water is the best place to offload its passengers.


----------



## Nail (Jul 29, 2008)

Banon said:


> Simply put, TFD should follow 1 simple rule of physics: For any force there is an equal and opposite force. If you put X amount of force ontop of TFD, the dics must exert that much 'magical' force on the ground to sustain it's hover.



Why?

Your additional rules for TFD neither clarify the situation nor are "required by physics".  The TFD magically floats 1 foot above the ground.  That is all!  None of the following are "the ground":  water, tight-rope, a strand of spider silk, or oxygen molecules.  Since these are not "the ground", TFD does not float 1 foot above them.

I mean, come on: this is easy stuff.

Now, whether or not you (the caster) can ride your own TFD...._that's_ a real question worth thinking about/parsing text over.


----------



## doctorhook (Jul 30, 2008)

What does everyone think of the ritual caster riding upon his own disc?

*Tenser's Floating Disc* (PH p312):- Is a first level ritual, costing 50gp to learn and 10gp each time it's used.
- Moves at the caster's base speed (probably 6) either on its own, towards the caster, or under the caster's direction as a move action.
- Can easily carry 1000 pounds for a 1st-level character with a high Arcana check (DC 25); can carry up to 2000 pounds (DC 40).
- Can't move vertically above the ground surface, according to the RAW.
- Can be directed by the caster at any distance, although presumably not much more than 5 squares away.​*Flying Carpet* (PH p254):- Is a 20th-level Wondrous Item, costing 125,000gp.
- Can be commanded mentally by a character riding it to fly 6 squares, as an at-will move action.
- Can fly to a maximum altitude of 10 squares. (EDITED to be more in line with the actual text.)
- Can carry a single Medium or Small creature of 300 pounds or less. More than 300 pounds placed upon the carpet causes it (and everything on it) to fall to the ground and take falling damage.
EDIT: - Imposes a -2 penalty to AC and Reflex upon its rider.​If Tenser's Floating Disc is able to be used to carry creatures (including the ritual caster), then it's clearly superior to a Flying Carpet in nearly every way. (The carpet wins at altitude.)

I like player creativity, but I won't be allowing these abuses of TFD; it's obviously not the intended use for this ritual, and it makes a 20th-level magic item functionally obsolete.

My suggested rules fix? *Tenser's Floating Disc can only carry objects.* Creatures either pass through the disc harmlessly, or cause the disc to collapse if they attempt to get on top of the disc.


----------



## Lord Zardoz (Jul 30, 2008)

Rowe said:
			
		

> I say
> * It floats on water
> * Players can ride on it
> * 1 player standing up
> ...




This sounds a little too much like your trying to apply the most favorable reading in every possible circumstance.  If your DM lets all this fly, you have a power that gives you a cargo transport, a boat, and a hovercraft, and battle chariot.

The rituals flavor description says its "like a porter that never needs to rest".  I would consider it to be a magical alternative to a donkey cart for hauling supplies or loot.  My gut instinct is to treat it like a childs wagon;  If you tried to use a child s wagon for the same purpose, you would get the same success.

So to respond directly to some of your ideas...
 - Not buoyant.  Treat it likes its rolling on the ground 
 - A player could ride it sitting at no penalty.  Standing would call for a balance check.
 - No height control
 - It does hover, so it could be used to circumvent pressure plate based traps.
 - Multiple discs can be used to spread out a load, but a caster can only move one at a time, so it is probably not practical.
 - If you were trying to use it in a combat I was running, I would let you move on it (using a move equivalent action).  I would disallow shifting.  It moves at its own speed.

END COMMUNICATION


----------



## Warmduscher (Jul 30, 2008)

That's only because a flying carpet is IMO insanely weak for something that costs 125.000 gp. Remove the altitude restrictions and up the number/weight of people riding on it and it makes sense again when compared to the disc.


----------



## Nail (Jul 30, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> ...I won't be allowing these abuses of TFD; it's obviously not the intended use for this ritual,....



Really?

Two questions: 
#1) Which "use" is an "abuse"?
#2) How do you know there is only one "intended use for this ritual"?


----------



## ptarth (Jul 30, 2008)

The following post was caused by a miscommunication, please ignore it. It will be kept to maintain continuity.



doctorhook said:


> *Flying Carpet* (PH p254):- Is a 20th-level Wondrous Item, costing 125,000gp.
> - Can be commanded mentally by a character riding it to fly 6 squares, as an at-will move action.
> - Can fly up to 10 squares above the ground.
> - Can carry a single Medium or Small creature of 300 pounds or less. More than 300 pounds placed upon the carpet causes it (and everything on it) to fall to the ground and take falling damage.​





I don't have the books on me, but assuming this is RAW, doesn't this mean that the Magic Carpet can't fly over water either?


----------



## doctorhook (Jul 30, 2008)

Nail said:


> Really?
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...



Depending upon interpretation of the rules, a 1st-level ritual is competitive with a 20th-level magic item, Nail. This suggests to me that the ritual is broken or being misinterpreted.

I didn't intend to sound prescriptive above. Obviously, other DMs reserve the right to rule as they see fit on this matter. However, I personally find many of the uses of TFD being described to be distasteful or problematic, if not because they are unreasonable then because they emulate a much more expensive player-capability too closely. In my mind, many of the uses being discussed make TFD into a ritual that's too good for an adventurer to be without, and in my experience, any player capability that's too good to be without is probably just too good.

As I said before, I intend to limit Tenser's Floating Disc to objects. (I'm willing to make exceptions for creatures behaving like objects.) To me, the intended use for TFD is to follow you along and carry heavy items, and that's basically what it's going to do in my game.


----------



## doctorhook (Jul 30, 2008)

ptarth said:


> I don't have the books on me, but assuming this is RAW, doesn't this mean that the Magic Carpet can't fly over water either?



...No, sorry. Magic carpets have "a maximum altitude of 10 squares". I've edited my above post.

This was my error; I was not careful in my paraphrasing. Good catch though, ptarth!


----------



## Saeviomagy (Jul 30, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Depending upon interpretation of the rules, a 1st-level ritual is competitive with a 20th-level magic item, Nail. This suggests to me that the ritual is broken or being misinterpreted.



I think perhaps you underestimate the power of being 10 squares in the air when compared with being one foot above solid ground.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 30, 2008)

Saeviomagy said:


> I think perhaps you underestimate the power of being 10 squares in the air when compared with being one foot above solid ground.




Like the vast majority of brutes and soldiers can't even hurt you?


----------



## theNater (Jul 30, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> If Tenser's Floating Disc is able to be used to carry creatures (including the ritual caster), then it's clearly superior to a Flying Carpet in nearly every way. (The carpet wins at altitude.)



The carpet wins at altitude by 49 feet.  This is significant.  It permits:

Flying over buildings
Flying over bodies of water too deep to wade through
Flying over trees
Flying up cliffs
Getting away from ground-bound foes
Surveying territory
Spying(people just don't look up often enough)
Lording your majesty over people

And probably much, much more.  Tenser's Floating Disc isn't going to render Flying Carpets obsolete any time soon.


----------



## DLichen (Jul 30, 2008)

Did anyone else laugh at the fact that someone is claiming that a flying carpet is bad while forgetting the biggest draw, the fact that it, you know, flies?

A magic carpet is just a carpet if not for the fact that it lets you rain death from above, out of reach of most attackers.

On the other hand, while I believe tensers should be a way for wizards to travel in style (at a slower rate), I don't believe that it should float over water, because that pretty much makes the level 2 water walking ritual irrelevant.


----------



## Pielorinho (Jul 30, 2008)

DLichen said:


> A magic carpet is just a carpet if not for the fact that it lets you rain death from above, out of reach of most attackers.



 I kind of like the idea of a wizard on a floating disk raining death down on an anthill, 

Daniel


----------



## Pielorinho (Jul 30, 2008)

DLichen said:


> A magic carpet is just a carpet if not for the fact that it lets you rain death from above, out of reach of most attackers.



 I kind of like the idea of a wizard on a floating disk raining death down on an anthill, laughing 

Daniel


----------



## Commonblade (Jul 30, 2008)

To me Tenser's Floating Disk works like a Water Tube. 

http://www.riversportstubes.com/

About the same size, could probably be used about the same way. Yeah I think it would float over water. Yeah it could move across a tight rope (make that balance/athletic check though). Just this weekend we strapped a cooler to a tube and went down the river so this makes sense to me. Could a wizard ride one, sure why not? Using magic to bypass obstacles just makes sense to me.


----------



## Nail (Jul 30, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Depending upon interpretation of the rules, a 1st-level ritual is competitive with a 20th-level magic item, Nail. This suggests to me that the ritual is broken or being misinterpreted.




.....with the best bet being "misinterpreted", with an emphasis on "reading the ritual description only once and then winging it".    As I pointed out above, the TFD floats 1 foot above the ground.  Any other location doesn’t work (water, tightrope, your grandma’s shawl, etc).

Again, there’s not much to interprete here…_except_ for whether or not the ritual caster can ride the disk while commanding it (using a move action) to move.  Perfectly reasonable people can disagree on this point without throwing the rest of the ritual description into doubt!  That is, even if the ritual caster can ride upon it, he still is only 1 foot above the ground, and is still not allowed to float over a spider silk strand or sail over a 50 foot-deep chasm.

And really, why should it matter (much) if the ritual caster should float 1 foot over the ground?  Do you have that many pressure plate traps in your dungeons? 

If you’d like – especially as there is language of this sort in the Flying Carpet description - insert house rules that assign combat penalties to any who ride the TFD.  (Given the size of the disk, it seems only one person could ride it in any event.)



doctorhook said:


> However, I personally find many of the uses of TFD being described to be distasteful or problematic, if not because they are unreasonable then because they emulate a much more expensive player-capability too closely.



Perhaps you could be more specific.  Many uses???

Reading through your posts, you seem to find allowing the TFD to carry people "distasteful".  Why, specifically?  Is it because a Flying Carpet can also carry people?  Other than what the two things can carry, they have precious few similarities.  One flies, the other doesn't.  Already a large difference!


----------



## renau1g (Jul 30, 2008)

TFD is a pretty common ritual that many wizards take, but mostly because it's pretty useful, even discounting the mount-like qualities of it. I look at it in relation to the other lvl 1 rituals:

Make Whole (doesn't happen enough, in my games anyways, especially with Sunder removed), Comprehend Languages.... can be useful in the most narrow circumstances, Magic Mouth, Secret Page, and Silence  seem better suited for either NPC's or villians.

I personally find it to have the most utility, due to its length and multitude of uses. If a PC wants to ride it why not? It's not much better than walking (except against pressure traps)


----------



## Nail (Jul 30, 2008)

renau1g said:


> If a PC wants to ride it why not? It's not much better than walking (except against pressure traps)



To be fair: if the wizard can ride TFD, he can float (1 foot above the ground) over other hazards on the ground, like red-hot coals spread over the floor, poison-coated spikes driven into the ground, or a slime-covered stone hallway.

So there is some degree of hazard protection afforded by a ridden TFD.

....however, if -as the DM - you find yourself unable to challenge the PCs with TFD...... 

...then it's your right to interpret the ritual description as not allowing the caster himself to ride it.  That's still within the rules, methinks.  I don't think there's any interpretation of the RAW that forbids a different creature (of appropriate weight) from riding it.


----------



## Rowe (Jul 31, 2008)

You know that in Drow in their capital city, the well to do lords of the land so to speak, they all ride Tensir's floating disc instead of walking.  in the dark elf trilogy comic i clearly remember seeing Drizzt's mom riding a disc around the city.

also a bit to clarify

* A wizard and a cleric both summon TFD.  they place a 3'x6' board between the two.  assuming both characters roll 20's on their arcane checks, and the discs can support 2k lbs a pop.  2 tons is allot of weight to be able to carry.


I would like a WoTC ruling on whether it will hover across water.  just to absolutely remove all opinion on the mater.  because if the rules don't explicitly say something is not aloud, it can pretty much be left up to DM decision on whether its possible.  i had to show my DM the picture out of the comic that showed Drow riding on those things before he would let my character float on it.


----------



## doctorhook (Aug 1, 2008)

Well, it appears that I've been roundly disagreed with regarding my point, "OMG! TFD is soo OP!!!1" Having had time to consider it, I've decided that, as theNater and others pointed out, the Flying Carpet has a major advantage over TFD, thanks to two factors: 1.) 49 more feet of altitude, and 2.) Not being tied to having ground beneath it.

I'm still of the opinion that TFD is somewhat more powerful/useful than most other 1st-level rituals, however, I believe I've been convinced that it's not strictly overpowered.

For the time being, I'm going to allow whatever uses my players think of with the RAW. That said, I like the houserule Nail suggested: combat penalties to characters riding the disc, on par with those of the Flying Carpet (-2 AC and Reflex). This seems fair and reasonable to me, and it will be my only house rule on this matter.

Besides, every DM makes a bad call once in a while!


----------

