# Blade Runner: The Next Million Dollar Kickstarter?



## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

The Blade Runner kickstarter is live. Four stretch goals down already.


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)




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## Morrus (May 3, 2022)

Backed! Couldn't resist--it looks so pretty.

Easy million dollar campaign here. The only question is how long that will take. Any bets on first day?


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

Six stretch goals


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## Espadadelaaurora (May 3, 2022)

New stretch goals added!


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Backed! Couldn't resist--it looks so pretty.
> 
> Easy million dollar campaign here. The only question is how long that will take. Any bets on first day?



I don't know if the day-one art print is enough to make it happen. Then again, this does seem like a property where fans just haven't had much opportunity to spend money on it. Could be a bit of an Avatar effect--folks buying to buy. If they did enough marketing, they could grab those folks right away.

Not hating on that buying style at all, btw. And if any company's going to give you the goods as a collector, it's Free League.

For me, I'm just really excited that they took the Twilight 2000/Forbidden Lands direction for the dice mechanic. If you did want to use this as the basis for a larger/different sort of cyberpunk campaign--including possibly taking it off-world--I bet you could easily port over combat mechanics from Twilight 2000.


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## Reynard (May 3, 2022)

It sure does look pretty but I am still struggling with what an official BladeRunner RPG might offer that most any cyyberpunk game plus a wiki wouldn't provide. It is such a narrow setting to license a whole game for. I guess you could say the same about Alien, although recent films have expanded on that universe (and yes, i know they are sort of the same universe).


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## John R Davis (May 3, 2022)

Yeah. Me too. Don't really see the appeal, and their is very little "game in the system". I'm sure it will do amazing numbers. 
There books are very nice to look at


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

Reynard said:


> It sure does look pretty but I am still struggling with what an official BladeRunner RPG might offer that most any cyyberpunk game plus a wiki wouldn't provide. It is such a narrow setting to license a whole game for. I guess you could say the same about Alien, although recent films have expanded on that universe (and yes, i know they are sort of the same universe).




I think part of the potential appeal is what they do to mechanically dig into the setting and themes, like Alien did with its rules for panicking, synthetics, and xeno attacks. In this case they've mentioned that pushing rolls has different effects on humans and replicants, and one of the first stretch goals was related to setting up a key memory for your character--a huge part of the Blade Runner movies, at least for replicants.

In other words, I don't think the Alien RPG has been so well-received because it collects Alien setting lore. That game is a master class in aligning rules to setting/themes. It's not just a generic skill system and a combat system, like so many games are.


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

Reynard said:


> It sure does look pretty but I am still struggling with what an official BladeRunner RPG might offer that most any cyyberpunk game plus a wiki wouldn't provide. It is such a narrow setting to license a whole game for. I guess you could say the same about Alien, although recent films have expanded on that universe (and yes, i know they are sort of the same universe).




This is what the kickstarter has to say:


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

While Free League is well known for their dice mechanics, the publisher is also really good at helping develop PCs--backstory, motivations, and goals. They can tie why the PC does something (the roleplaying) to the how (the dice). The memories of PCs they reference is especially intriguing.


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## Reynard (May 3, 2022)

Charles Dunwoody said:


> While Free League is well known for their dice mechanics, the publisher is also really good at helping develop PCs--backstory, motivations, and goals. They can tie why the PC does something (the roleplaying) to the how (the dice). The memories of PCs they reference is especially intriguing.



I am not convinced that mechanics need to tell players how to conduct their roleplaying. I like the Alien RPG and the Stress mechanic is really cool, but its "scripted" adventures are... not to my liking. That's not something I want at my table. That's "murder mystery night from Target" style "storytelling".


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

Reynard said:


> I am not convinced that mechanics need to tell players how to conduct their roleplaying. I like the Alien RPG and the Stress mechanic is really cool, but its "scripted" adventures are... not to my liking. That's not something I want at my table. That's "murder mystery night from Target" style "storytelling".




I'm not referring to mechanics in this case. Character creation in Free League tends to include goals, drives, connections to other PCs and NPCs, etc. These choices are player chosen and player driven. Mechanically, yes, they do tie into gaining XP. But the player makes the decisions first. So the PC gains XP for acting the way the player thinks they should act and for accomplishing the goals the player wants the PC to achieve.

Alien added a new layer where what the PC wants according to the group's knowledge is not what the PC secretly wants. Again, I don't see that as mechanical except for tying it to XP. And doing stuff normally does tie to XP so it makes sense to me.


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## Lidgar (May 3, 2022)

Tempted, but saving my pledge dollars for Dark Tower instead. 

It's quite the times we live in to have so many fantastic choices! Much to the dismay of my wallet...


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## Reynard (May 3, 2022)

Charles Dunwoody said:


> I'm not referring to mechanics in this case. Character creation in Free League tends to include goals, drives, connections to other PCs and NPCs, etc. These choices are player chosen and player driven. Mechanically, yes, they do tie into gaining XP. But the player makes the decisions first. So the PC gains XP for acting the way the player thinks they should act and for accomplishing the goals the player wants the PC to achieve.
> 
> Alien added a new layer where what the PC wants according to the group's knowledge is not what the PC secretly wants. Again, I don't see that as mechanical except for tying it to XP. And doing stuff normally does tie to XP so it makes sense to me.



I do really like the way Mutant Year Zero ties the PCs not only to one another but to different factions in the Ark with relatively simple choices.


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## J.M (May 3, 2022)

I think games were traditionally designed with the idea that players made their characters separately, so adventures needed to be written with a wide array of character possibilities in mind (D&D still mostly follows this model). I like how newer games (not just Free League) put more emphasis on character backstories and motivations and tie them into the adventure, it opens up more ways to challenge the PCs and make the players care.


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

2 hours and 45 minutes in and it’s already at $465,000?

Holy…


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

J.M said:


> I think games were traditionally designed with the idea that players made their characters separately, so adventures needed to be written with a wide array of character possibilities in mind (D&D still mostly follows this model). I like how newer games (not just Free League) put more emphasis on character backstories and motivations and tie them into the adventure, it opens up more ways to challenge the PCs and make the players care.




I'd add that this game really feels like it might tilt toward much smaller groups--two PCs would probably be pretty perfect. The smaller the group, the more the game can dig into what you're describing.


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## Morrus (May 3, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> 2 hours and 45 minutes in and it’s already at $465,000?
> 
> Holy…



Free League's other million dollar One Ring KS did $521K on the first day and finished with $2M. Compared to the other million dollar campaigns in the last few weeks --

Flee Mortals did $788K on the first day
Appalachia did $679K on the first day
Only one campaign has done $1M+ on day 1, and that was Avatar Legends with $1.15M on the first day
It's exciting to watch!









						Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarter Club
					

Avatar Legends leads the pack in an exclusive club -- Kickstarters for tabletop roleplaying game products which have broken the $1M barrier! It is currently the most successful TTRPG Kickstarter in history with a funding total of nearly $10M, and over 80,000 backers.  22 TTRPG campaigns have...




					www.enworld.org


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Free League's other million dollar One Ring KS did $521K on the first day and finished with $2M. Compared to the other million dollar campaigns in the last few weeks --
> 
> Flee Mortals did $788K on the first day
> Appalachia did $679K on the first day
> ...



They’re on pace to get $1 million today. Hope they do. That would be amazing.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

Btw for those who like to post Kicktraq numbers, note that right now their model has BR trending toward $11.6M.

As ever, the algorithms are not our friends.


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## Morrus (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Btw for those who like to post Kicktraq numbers, note that right now their model has BR trending toward $11.6M.
> 
> As ever, the algorithms are not our friends.



Yeah, ignore Kicktraq.


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

I was thinking about Blade Runner adventures and I think there is more there than for Alien. In Alien, everything basically boils down to monster eats people, monster is killed, a few people survive. Usually in a small contained setting like a ship or colony. Hence, many Cinematic adventures so far where this violent clash works more easily than in Campaign play.

We've seen two stories in Blade Runner about hunting Replicants. But think of the hints of the world around those two stories.

Overpowered corporations. Post-apocalyptic parts of LA. Environmental crisis. Overcrowding. Off world colonies. Artificial life. Abject poverty. Crime. Vice. Violence. Life is cheap; living is expensive. What it means to be human. What it means to not be human.

"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe: attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I've watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those... moments... will be lost in time, like... tears... in rain."

On the other hand, imagine playing a whole campaign in LA when off world colonies exist. What an interesting idea. Your PCs are not willing to pay whatever it would cost to get off world or what they pursue in LA matters more. I'm getting noir vibes mixed with sci-fi vibes.


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

Half a million. They are going to run out of stretch goals.


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## Morrus (May 3, 2022)

They just overtook TOR's first day total in about 2 hours.

That said, Tanares had a similar early bird gift, and had nearly $1M on the first day but support dropped right off after that. It'll be interesting to see how much of a spike day 1 is on this campaign. I tend to feel that people who arrive after day 1 and realise they missed the gift sometimes feel they've missed out. It's a risky gamble!


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Charles Dunwoody said:


> I was thinking about Blade Runner adventures and I think there is more there than for Alien. In Alien, everything basically boils down to monster eats people, monster is killed, a few people survive. Usually in a small contained setting like a ship or colony. Hence, many Cinematic adventures so far where this violent clash works more easily than in Campaign play.
> 
> We've seen two stories in Blade Runner about hunting Replicants. But think of the hints of the world around those two stories.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that’s literal the point. Sci-fi noir. 

For even more ideas and world building, read the novel BR is based on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. There’s so much there that didn’t make it into the movie. Also the rest of Philip K Dick’s fiction is a gold mine of utterly brilliant sci-fi stories, settings, and ideas.


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## Reynard (May 3, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Yeah, that’s literal the point. Sci-fi noir.
> 
> For even more ideas and world building, read the novel BR is based on Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep. There’s so much there that didn’t make it into the movie. Also the rest of Philip K Dick’s fiction is a gold mine of utterly brilliant sci-fi stories, settings, and ideas.



One day i was listening to a PKD collection on audiobook and I was floored with a story called (If I remember right) "The Third Kind" -- from which the entirety of the post-bombs world of Terminator is stolen. I mean, almost word for word in places.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

Morrus said:


> They just overtook TOR's first day total in about 2 hours.
> 
> That said, Tanares had a similar early bird gift, and had nearly $1M on the first day but support dropped right off after that. It'll be interesting to see how much of a spike day 1 is on this campaign. I tend to feel that people who arrive after day 1 and realise they missed the gift sometimes feel they've missed out. It's a risky gamble!




The early bird gift seems pretty minor (imo) in this case. I'm sure it's a nice art print, but I know I'm about 30 years too old to be displaying that anywhere.  

On a related note, though, I hope Martin Grip makes as much money from this book as anyone else involved, if not more. His art is why core books like this and Alien work as well as they do.


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## MGibster (May 3, 2022)

Charles Dunwoody said:


> On the other hand, imagine playing a whole campaign in LA when off world colonies exist. What an interesting idea. Your PCs are not willing to pay whatever it would cost to get off world or what they pursue in LA matters more. I'm getting noir vibes mixed with sci-fi vibes.



They might have some other reason they can't leave.  In the first movie, I think Sebastian mentions that he has some sort of physical ailment that prevents him from being qualified to live off world.  

I backed the Kickstarter at the Off World bundle level.  I'm looking forward to this and hope I can get people to play the game.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

Reynard said:


> One day i was listening to a PKD collection on audiobook and I was floored with a story called (If I remember right) "The Third Kind" -- from which the entirety of the post-bombs world of Terminator is stolen. I mean, almost word for word in places.



I think you're talking about Second Variety, which is a cool one. The movie Screamers is based on it (Ioosely, as with most PKD adaptations).


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> The early bird gift seems pretty minor (imo) in this case. I'm sure it's a nice art print, but I know I'm about 30 years too old to be displaying that anywhere.
> 
> On a related note, though, I hope Martin Grip makes as much money from this book as anyone else involved, if not more. His art is why core books like this and Alien work as well as they do.



Yeah, that’s a weird argument to me. I doubt many, if any, people who’d be interested in throwing $50-100+ at a physical copy of a Blade Runner RPG would nope out because they missed a day one exclusive art print.


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

MGibster said:


> They might have some other reason they can't leave.  In the first movie, I think Sebastian mentions that he has some sort of physical ailment that prevents him from being qualified to live off world.
> 
> I backed the Kickstarter at the Off World bundle level.  I'm looking forward to this and hope I can get people to play the game.



In the book, the radioactive fallout from World War Terminus mutates people. Anyone who’s sufficiently off “baseline human” is legally barred from emigrating. Only the healthy and mentally fit are allowed to populate the stars. Along with everyone owning an animal, radical empathy, Mercerism, all the other androids, Morrison Street station, and Buster Friendly…the book is filled to bursting with juicy ideas just waiting to be used. I won’t spoil the book, so don’t ask. Just go read it.


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## Morrus (May 3, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Yeah, that’s a weird argument to me.



I’m not arguing anything.


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## darjr (May 3, 2022)

It is fun to watch. Is this in any way compatible to Alien or thier other in house engine games?


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> The early bird gift seems pretty minor (imo) in this case. I'm sure it's a nice art print, but I know I'm about 30 years too old to be displaying that anywhere.




I'm old and I back some kickstarters early to get art prints to put in my basement game room and TV room!


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## payn (May 3, 2022)

I was waffling between standard and collector core rule book. I like the cover of the standard better, but that one time collector! Since I game 99% online now or via PDF, I went collector copy since it will likely sit on the shelf and remain pristine.


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 3, 2022)

darjr said:


> It is fun to watch. Is this in any way compatible to Alien or thier other in house engine games?




Yes. Not completely but close. Both use versions of the Year Zero Engine (OGL version). Alien uses a d6 dice pool and Blade Runner will use a paired die pool.

A bit dated now, but here is an article on Free League's early years. Part two (art links are broken).


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## schneeland (May 3, 2022)

It’s interesting to see they went with the Twilight variant of Year Zero. Hopefully they will share a bit about the rules already during the campaign.


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## GreyLord (May 3, 2022)

My guess is that it will hit a million tomorrow or the next day...wild guess on my part.


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Reynard said:


> One day i was listening to a PKD collection on audiobook and I was floored with a story called (If I remember right) "The Third Kind" -- from which the entirety of the post-bombs world of Terminator is stolen. I mean, almost word for word in places.



Terminator is also heavily lifted from Harlan Ellison's work. Cameron even admitted as much and was forced to pay Ellison.


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Gizmodo article about the Kickstarter and an interview with Tomas Härenstam (lead game designer) and Joe LeFavi (setting writer).









						Blade Runner Heads to the Tabletop In a Brand New RPG
					

io9 talks with some of the team behind Free League's latest licensed RPG—heading into the world of the legendary neo-noir Blade Runner.




					gizmodo.com


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## Morrus (May 3, 2022)

darjr said:


> It is fun to watch. Is this in any way compatible to Alien or thier other in house engine games?



Yes 100%.


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

5 hours and 30 minutes in and already $620,000 and 6000 backers...which puts the average pledge over $100.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> 5 hours and 30 minutes in and already $620,000 and 6000 backers...which puts the average pledge over $100.




Most popular pledge right now is the $132 bundle (physical starter set and limited edition book). Be interesting to see what happens when they add a GM screen and whatever else as add-ons.

What they should really do is pander to the Aliens-and-BR-are-the-same-universe folks and offer a specific bundle...


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## Morrus (May 3, 2022)

It's currently the 4th best ever first day funding, with plenty of the day left to go. Currently at $720K. Ahead of it are:

1) Avatar Legends ($1.15M)
2) Tanares RPG ($993K)
3) Flee Mortals ($789K)


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

Always interesting to see how many Kickstarter commenters ask for a solo mode in Free League campaigns. Seems way more common there. Anyone know why? Did they open the floodgates by doing/promising some solo stuff in the past? Or is it something else?

Asking for a solo mode in an _investigative noir game_ is pretty wild stuff, though. There are ways to do GM-less gaming, but when it's so clearly about gathering clues, interviewing subjects, etc... how in the world do people think that's going to work?

ETA: I meant to say is it because they opened the floodgates with past solo stuff (since they did, with The One Ring and Forbidden Lands, and maybe Vaesen?) or is it something else.


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## payn (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Always interesting to see how many Kickstarter commenters ask for a solo mode in Free League campaigns. Seems way more common there. Anyone know why? Did they open the floodgates by doing/promising some solo stuff in the past? Or is it something else?
> 
> Asking for a solo mode in an _investigative noir game_ is pretty wild stuff, though. There are ways to do GM-less gaming, but when it's so clearly about gathering clues, interviewing subjects, etc... how in the world do people think that's going to work?
> 
> ETA: I meant to say is it because they opened the floodgates with past solo stuff (since they did, with The One Ring and Forbidden Lands, and maybe Vaesen?) or is it something else.



There is a stress element from my glimpses and I could see there being a certain "how much can my detective take psychologically" in a solo play. Investigate more of those elements of the PKD novel left out of the films.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

payn said:


> There is a stress element from my glimpses and I could see there being a certain "how much can my detective take psychologically" in a solo play. Investigate more of those elements of the PKD novel left out of the films.




That's a great idea. But this is a very trad game. It's not like it's using a Brindlewood Bay-style storygame mechanic to determine how the investigation resolves. So what's the point of looking at various handouts and generally puzzling out the answers if no one's there to tell you whether they're right? There's a reason why something like Ironsworn isn't an investigation game.


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## payn (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> That's a great idea. But this is a very trad game. It's not like it's using a Brindlewood Bay-style storygame mechanic to determine how the investigation resolves. So what's the point of looking at various handouts and generally puzzling out the answers if no one's there to tell you whether they're right? There's a reason why something like Ironsworn isn't an investigation game.



This assumes that the game only plays in hand out find clues investigative mode. If its that simple, I think its missing greatly on the thematic elements of even the films.


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## schneeland (May 3, 2022)

I think people mainly ask for this on the basis that Free League was willing to do it for previous campaigns, and without spending too much though how it would happen. I tend to agree that it would not be a good fit and that you'd be better off playing it as a one on one game.


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## Sir Brennen (May 3, 2022)

I've put this in my KS "reminder me". I love the Bladerunner franchise, including the PKD source material, and I'm very curious about Year Zero as a system, but it'll probably be something that just sits on my shelf. Too many cool games to play and not enough time to play them!

Also, not a deal breaker, but I'm not really crazy about the custom dice in the Stretch Goals. Numbers are too small next to the image on each face.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

payn said:


> This assumes that the game only plays in hand out find clues investigative mode. If its that simple, I think its missing greatly on the thematic elements of even the films.




Right, but it's a noir game. It's about mysteries. Someone has to adjudicate whether you've cracked the case. A chapter on solo play isn't going to do that, in the way that Twilight 2000 is already built around random encounters, and comes with a bunch of distinct sites you can visit, each with statted-out NPCs and agendas. You'd need an entire book of Starforged-like oracles to come close to doing GM-less investigation.


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## payn (May 3, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> I've put this in my KS "reminder me". I love the Bladerunner franchise, including the PKD source material, and I'm very curious about Year Zero as a system, but it'll probably be something that just sits on my shelf. Too many cool games to play and not enough time to play them!
> 
> Also, not a deal breaker, but I'm not really crazy about the custom dice in the Stretch Goals. Numbers are too small next to the image on each face.



You could just go with the PDF only option.


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## payn (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Right, but it's a noir game. It's about mysteries. Someone has to adjudicate whether you've cracked the case. A chapter on solo play isn't going to do that, in the way that Twilight 2000 is already built around random encounters, and comes with a bunch of distinct sites you can visit, each with statted-out NPCs and agendas. You'd need an entire book of Starforged-like oracles to come close to doing GM-less investigation.



Again, if its singularly focused on just being a mystery solving game, then it will be a poor choice for solo play. Though, there is so so much more to BR than noir detective theme. I dont have any knowledge on the game modes and content of this RPG currently other than stress mechanics. I have played other FL games and believe that there can be room for this game to go beyond a singular board game like detective function.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

payn said:


> Again, if its singularly focused on just being a mystery solving game, then it will be a poor choice for solo play. Though, there is so so much more to BR than noir detective theme. I dont have any knowledge on the game modes and content of this RPG currently other than stress mechanics. I have played other FL games and believe that there can be room for this game to go beyond a singular board game like detective function.



If the solo mode for a game means you aren’t doing the core play mode for the game, that’s just asking for a different game. That’s like asking for a solo Call of Cthulhu game where you don’t investigate Mythos stuff. Look at what they’ve already revealed for this RPG. It’s an investigation game. You’re in the Rep-Detect squad. There are tools for GMs to create Cases, not general scenarios. It’s very focused. Anything else you want to do is homebrew for now and outside the scope of what they’re publishing.


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Always interesting to see how many Kickstarter commenters ask for a solo mode in Free League campaigns. Seems way more common there. Anyone know why? Did they open the floodgates by doing/promising some solo stuff in the past? Or is it something else?
> 
> Asking for a solo mode in an _investigative noir game_ is pretty wild stuff, though. There are ways to do GM-less gaming, but when it's so clearly about gathering clues, interviewing subjects, etc... how in the world do people think that's going to work?
> 
> ETA: I meant to say is it because they opened the floodgates with past solo stuff (since they did, with The One Ring and Forbidden Lands, and maybe Vaesen?) or is it something else.



Well, not to point out the elephant in the room, but D&D utterly dominates the market and mindspace of the hobby. Getting much attention focused on anything but 5E is incredibly hard, to say nothing of getting gamers to agree to play a game that's self-billed as about existential angst, empathy, and questions of humanity. Despite the clear success of the Kickstarter, that's not your typical RPG fare. The player base of this game is going to be small. Wanting to not pay money for another pretty picture book that collects dust on your shelf is a very real concern. I'm surprised solo play isn't bog standard for RPGs, honestly.


Grendel_Khan said:


> Right, but it's a noir game. It's about mysteries. Someone has to adjudicate whether you've cracked the case. A chapter on solo play isn't going to do that, in the way that Twilight 2000 is already built around random encounters, and comes with a bunch of distinct sites you can visit, each with statted-out NPCs and agendas. You'd need an entire book of Starforged-like oracles to come close to doing GM-less investigation.



Not really. Mysteries are nowhere near that complicated. Especially if you're willing to gamify the setup a bit.


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Nine hours and $750,000...damn.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 3, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Well, not to point out the elephant in the room, but D&D utterly dominates the market and mindspace of the hobby. Getting much attention focused on anything but 5E is incredibly hard, to say nothing of getting gamers to agree to play a game that's self-billed as about existential angst, empathy, and questions of humanity. Despite the clear success of the Kickstarter, that's not your typical RPG fare. The player base of this game is going to be small. Wanting to not pay money for another pretty picture book that collects dust on your shelf is a very real concern. I'm surprised solo play isn't bog standard for RPGs, honestly.




This makes a lot of sense. 



overgeeked said:


> Not really. Mysteries are nowhere near that complicated. Especially if you're willing to gamify the setup a bit.




I agree, when the mystery is prewritten. But I still think they’re hard to pull off in a procedurally generated way—unless you include a storygame mechanic where there’s no “true” solution. I don’t see that working with BR’s seemingly trad, zoomed-in, let’s-play-every-round-of-combat approach. 

But wait, I just realized how dumb I am. FL is already in the middle of figuring this out for Vaesen, since the most recent campaign for it included that as a stretch goal. I guess we’ll see if it actually works!


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## overgeeked (May 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> But wait, I just realized how dumb I am. FL is already in the middle of figuring this out for Vaesen, since the most recent campaign for it included that as a stretch goal. I guess we’ll see if it actually works!



Not dumb, just forgot you knew a thing. Like in a mystery. 


Grendel_Khan said:


> I agree, when the mystery is prewritten. But I still think they’re hard to pull off in a procedurally generated way—unless you include a storygame mechanic where there’s no “true” solution. I don’t see that working with BR’s seemingly trad, zoomed-in, let’s-play-every-round-of-combat approach.



Yeah, that was my thought. Procedurally generate a mystery _as you play through it_. Very much a storygame mechanic artificially pushing the solution out. It might not be satisfying for all gamers, but it would work and generate something rather close to a mystery plot.


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## MGibster (May 3, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> Also, not a deal breaker, but I'm not really crazy about the custom dice in the Stretch Goals. Numbers are too small next to the image on each face.



I'm not overly fond of them either, but for the most part I support a KS based on the core product.  A lot of times the stretch goals really don't add a lot in my opinion even when some of them are kind of neat.


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## agrayday (May 4, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Terminator is also heavily lifted from Harlan Ellison's work. Cameron even admitted as much and was forced to pay Ellison.



ever see the movie Cyborg 2087? 1966 low budget terminator 2 before terminator 2...


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## AverageMojito (May 4, 2022)

Charles Dunwoody said:


> I'm getting noir vibes mixed with sci-fi vibes.





overgeeked said:


> Yeah, that’s literal the point. Sci-fi noir.



That's what I was hoping for when they announced a Blade Runner RPG. I've played Cyberpunk RPGs before, and the Punk aspect of it doesn't talk to me anymore. So a sci-fi noir/cybernoir might be what I'm looking for a "near future" game these days.


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## AverageMojito (May 4, 2022)

Morrus said:


> It's currently the 4th best ever first day funding, with plenty of the day left to go. Currently at $720K. Ahead of it are:
> 
> 1) Avatar Legends ($1.15M)
> 2) Tanares RPG ($993K)
> 3) Flee Mortals ($789K)



Made it to Top 3 in roughly 12 hours. Another half day to go to try to beat Tanares. To be continued...


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## overgeeked (May 4, 2022)

$803,000 at 15 minutes shy of 12 hours.


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## Storyteller Hero (May 4, 2022)

BLADE RUNNER: BLACK LOTUS (2021, on Crunchyroll now) introduced a lot of anime/animation fans to the world of Blade Runner in the past year, so I guess now is a pretty good time to go for it while interest is still relatively fresh.


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## overgeeked (May 4, 2022)

$855,000 at 16 hours. It's slowing down. Only $52,000 in the last four hours.


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## Mistwell (May 4, 2022)

$867K and I'm headed to bed


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## overgeeked (May 4, 2022)

$884,000 after 19 hours.


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## Ilgiallomondadori (May 4, 2022)

I backed at the box set + sexy kickstarter exclusive hardcover level.
Unsure how adventures will roll, but I love Free League, I love Blade Runner, I love Philip K Dick, I love noir, and it all looks so beautiful.


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

AverageMojito said:


> Made it to Top 3 in roughly 12 hours. Another half day to go to try to beat Tanares. To be continued...



For the chart, I’m taking Kicktraq’s ‘day 1’ stats, which isn’t the same as the first 24 hours. There’s no way to historically determine first 24 hours for campaigns.


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## darjr (May 4, 2022)

$925


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## Grendel_Khan (May 4, 2022)

Here's my pointless list of predictions for some additional stretch goals (not necessarily in this order, and I'm sure I'm wrong).

Off World brochure (handout, not a real guide)
Black dice w/red characters
Item cards
VK Test script (or a script generator, since it should be different from the original movie's)
Something on other side of LA map
Solo mode at 20M SEK (make em work for it!)


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## AverageMojito (May 4, 2022)

Morrus said:


> For the chart, I’m taking Kicktraq’s ‘day 1’ stats, which isn’t the same as the first 24 hours. There’s no way to historically determine first 24 hours for campaigns.



Got it. From what I figured through Google, Kicktraq uses GMT-5 timezone. I guess Top 3 is confirmed, then, with Tanares second and Avatar the undisputed 1st-day champion, so far.


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## eyeheartawk (May 4, 2022)

"You did it Deckard, you have finally become the BLADERUNNER"


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## Sir Brennen (May 4, 2022)

payn said:


> You could just go with the PDF only option.



That... resolves none of the issues I stated. I'd rather not play a physical product on my bookshelf than a PDF on my hard drive, anyway.


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## Sir Brennen (May 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I'm not overly fond of them either, but for the most part I support a KS based on the core product.  A lot of times the stretch goals really don't add a lot in my opinion even when some of them are kind of neat.



I did say "not a deal breaker". 

I also find that too many KS's stretch goals are often just... "stuff". I don't need additional special tokens or cards or other miscellanea that I then have to figure out storage for, and remember I even have when I pull one of the many RPG books off my shelf.

Stretch goals for additional content in the book? Heck yeah!


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## Grendel_Khan (May 4, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> I did say "not a deal breaker".
> 
> I also find that too many KS's stretch goals are often just... "stuff". I don't need additional special tokens or cards or other miscellanea that I then have to figure out storage for, and remember I even have when I pull one of the many RPG books off my shelf.
> 
> Stretch goals for additional content in the book? Heck yeah!




I usually agree about stretch goal knick knacks. I particularly dislike it when TTRPG campaigns assume everyone's super jazzed about minis. But I don't think the stretch goals in this case are superfluous or purely for collectors. For example, I found the initiative cards handy in Twilight 2000. The chase cards look like a fun way to play out pursuits. And the additional maps and locations and NPCs added to this campaign's starter set will also be available digitally for all backers, like all of the starter set-related goals (except for the dice, obviously).

In other words, I don't see any dumb campaign coin stretch goals or similar in this campaign, or other FL Kickstarters. It's all stuff that's either obviously useful or could wind up being handy, even if only in PDF form.

Plus, if you do get the physical starter set (the only way you're getting those cards and such), it all just fits in that same box....


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## Sir Brennen (May 4, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Plus, if you do get the physical starter set (the only way you're getting those cards and such), it all just fits in that same box....



Yeah, the fact that the Starter Set is a physical box is helpful with storage of all the stretch goal extras.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 4, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> Yeah, the fact that the Starter Set is a physical box is helpful with storage of all the stretch goal extras.




To be honest, I don't see any of this game's stretch goals as extras, or really stretch goals at all. They're teasing out the product as it was always planned, and getting people fired up on Kickstarter in the process. Look at how finished all of the preview layouts and materials are, and the fact that you really can't play the game with just one set of four dice (an early stretch goal), so it was always going to be two sets included in the starter set (a later stretch goal). 

Another way of thinking about it--the starter set without any of the unlocked stretch goals would have been a terrible product, and practically an empty box compared to what's in the Alien starter set. This is a fun way to reveal components they knew would go into it.

I don't begrudge them that approach. They know what previous campaigns have done, and how to run an exciting campaign, while also not digging a stretch goal ditch they can't get out of. I mean, look at how short the campaign is, compared to other major campaigns they've done. Just 24 days total. They have this thing mapped out and locked in, preview PDF ready to go. This is just good marketing. (And I'm a sucker for it myself, given how often I've compulsively reloading that page!)


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I mean, look at how short the campaign is, compared to other major campaigns they've done. Just 24 days total.



That's become more and more common these days--companies are starting to cut out the middle 'dead' period of the campaign. "Flee Mortals!" was just 20 days. MCG's Old Gods of Appalachia is 25 days. Free League's own The One Ring 2E last year was 22 days. It's not really necessary to do a full month, as many companies are proving.


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## payn (May 4, 2022)

A like a lot of these stretch goals and be very interested in seeing the final product. These high quality hand outs and mystery material could lead to future products Id be very interested in.


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## darjr (May 4, 2022)

One Million!


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)




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## Mistwell (May 4, 2022)

Well they hit $1M. Was it in 24 hours?


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## Charles Dunwoody (May 4, 2022)

That was impressive to watch unfold.


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

Somebody should check the timestamp on the Flee Mortals! and Appalachia threads when they hit a million.

Edit--here's the post. By @darjr (of course!) -- so according to the timestamp, Blade Runner is 3-and-a-half hours faster to hit the million. Of course that doesn't mean much long term. It's just fun.

Edit2--here's MDG's Appalachia (again darjr!). Not quite as fast, but still incredibly fast--still another 9 hours until the same milestone.

So it's
Bladerunner (+0 hours)
Flee Mortals! (+3 hours)
Appalachia (+9 hours)


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## overgeeked (May 4, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> Well they hit $1M. Was it in 24 hours?



No. They launched at about 6am yesterday. Assuming the time stamps are right, they hit $1 million at 10:16 PST. Which is 28 hours 16 minutes after launch.


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> No. They launched at about 6am yesterday. Assuming the time stamps are right, they hit $1 million at 10:16 PST. Which is 28 hours 16 minutes after launch.



Avatar is still the only TTRPG campaign to every hit $1M in the first day. Tanares came close by giving away a big gold dragon mini to all first day backers but even that wasn't quite enough!


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## Sacrosanct (May 4, 2022)

I mentioned this in another thread, but I'd be curious to know how much of that million goes to licensing.  Between production/marketing/shipping costs, that 1 mil goes way down, so I wonder if they needed to hit a million just to make any sort of profit once you consider licensing as well.  It always strikes me funny when someone says someone on KS became a millionaire because net profits are just a fraction.


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

Sacrosanct said:


> I mentioned this in another thread, but I'd be curious to know how much of that million goes to licensing.  Between production/marketing/shipping costs, that 1 mil goes way down, so I wonder if they needed to hit a million just to make any sort of profit once you consider licensing as well.  It always strikes me funny when someone says someone on KS became a millionaire because net profits are just a fraction.



10% is a common figure. Plus an advance on royalties (which won't be all that much, I wouldn't have thought; maybe $20K? Maybe not that much). But we can but guess.

Note that this total doesn't include shipping, which will be charged afterwards. For campaigns which include shipping in the actual pledge process, that can be 20-30% of the funds. That doesn't apply to this campaign though.

And of course Kickstarter takes 5%, and you lose 5% to failed pledges.

So yeah, it adds up.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 4, 2022)

They crossed the 10M SEK mark. Here's hoping someone's working late in Sweden to toss up the next batch of stretch goals.


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## Scribe (May 4, 2022)

Dark and Existential themes you say?

Sold.


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## schneeland (May 4, 2022)

Seems like the next update will only come tomorrow morning.
Personally, I would like to see Simon Stalenhag do a full soundtrack. But it doesn't seem like something that's too popular among backers based on the comments I saw.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 4, 2022)

schneeland said:


> Seems like the next update will only come tomorrow morning.
> Personally, I would like to see Simon Stalenhag do a full soundtrack. But it doesn't seem like something that's too popular among backers based on the comments I saw.




I'd love that!

But don't pay too much attention to the backer comments. I recognize a lot of the names, and many are the same dice goblins and doodad seekers that show up to other big campaigns. Give em a GM screen and they want a bigger one. Give em an origami unicorn that would destroy the project's margins and they'll want a spinner plushie, too. They're a tiny slice with an outsize voice on that platform, and they're always going to ask for more random dice bags, trays, shirts and other "I was there" exclusive treats.


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## payn (May 4, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I'd love that!
> 
> But don't pay too much attention to the backer comments. I recognize a lot of the names, and many are the same dice goblins and doodad seekers that show up to other big campaigns. Give em a GM screen and they want a bigger one. Give em an origami unicorn that would destroy the project's margins and they'll want a spinner plushie, too. They're a tiny slice with an outsize voice on that platform, and they're always going to ask for more random dice bags, trays, shirts and other "I was there" exclusive treats.



I dont know why comments are even allowed. Its just a bunch of jackals mad that they don't get to meet Harrison Ford as a stretch goal for their 89 dollar backing.


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## Urriak Uruk (May 4, 2022)

Well wow-ie, I'm impressed. Surprised too, considering the goal was $10,000 and it's done almost 100 times that in one day.

Not bashing, genuine curiosity, but how is this doing so well? I understand Blade Runner is a cult film with a following, but I would never have expected this to be more popular than The One Ring. I also saw that Free League's Bladerunner is the most anticipated TTRPG release.

So what's getting folks so excited? Is it Bladerunner, Free League's excited record, something else?


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## Reynard (May 4, 2022)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Well wow-ie, I'm impressed. Surprised too, considering the goal was $10,000 and it's done almost 100 times that in one day.
> 
> Not bashing, genuine curiosity, but how is this doing so well? I understand Blade Runner is a cult film with a following, but I would never have expected this to be more popular than The One Ring. I also saw that Free League's Bladerunner is the most anticipated TTRPG release.
> 
> So what's getting folks so excited? Is it Bladerunner, Free League's excited record, something else?



My guess is it is part of the deep nostalgia well we are stuck in, pop culture wise. Everything is 80s/90s referenced and Gen X is eating it up because we (I am among that cohort) are getting old and realizing our best years are a couple decades behind us -- like every other generation. Giove it 10 or 15 years and Millenial Harry Potter nostalgia will put our cash outflow to shame.


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## Scribe (May 4, 2022)

Someone said it best, and I think it was here.

"Nobody went broke, selling their childhood back to middle aged white dudes."

On a personal note, that grungy existential cyberpunk vibe is about as close to perfect as it gets. Cyberpunk 2077 had a ton of hype as well even if the game was (still is?) a disaster.

There is a market for this stuff.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 4, 2022)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Not bashing, genuine curiosity, but how is this doing so well? I understand Blade Runner is a cult film with a following, but I would never have expected this to be more popular than The One Ring. I also saw that Free League's Bladerunner is the most anticipated TTRPG release.
> 
> So what's getting folks so excited? Is it Bladerunner, Free League's excited record, something else?




I think Free League has a ton of momentum within the hobby, and this kind of product really taps into that collector's urge to own a piece of the thing, whether you play it or not (and especially if it's for something like Blade Runner, an IP with so few things to buy). Even if this just sits on someone's shelf as an art book, that's money well spent for a lot of folks. I mean, that art is just killer...


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Surprised too, considering the goal was $10,000



Well, it wasn't really.


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## Mezuka (May 4, 2022)

Personally I find cyberpunk to be the easiest sci-fi genre to write adventures for and the most fun to play, regardless of the side you the screen you are sitting. Not surprised by the success.
It helps that Free League keeps delivering quality products for their campaigns.


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## Urriak Uruk (May 4, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Well, it wasn't really.




Yeah, that initial goal is really just "We're making this product, but how big this product is YOU DECIDE" isn't it?


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

Urriak Uruk said:


> Yeah, that initial goal is really just "We're making this product, but how big this product is YOU DECIDE" isn't it?



That initial goal was 'make sure we fund in the first hour' (or 3 minutes as the case may be). I imagine their private goal was far, far larger. But on things like this, KS goals are pretty much meaningless. It's just an arbitrary number; they're going to make the game anyway, and they're not going to risk setting a goal they might not accomplish and getting nothing.


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## MGibster (May 4, 2022)

Urriak Uruk said:


> So what's getting folks so excited? Is it Bladerunner, Free League's excited record, something else?



I'm a fan of the former but for me it's the latter.  When I first learned about the Alien RPG I had very little interest even though I love at least two of the movies from that franchise.  But I took a chance and purchased it, and I wasn't disappointed.  I'm a fan of Blade Runner, but if this wasn't Free League I probably wouldn't have backed it.


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## schneeland (May 4, 2022)

Urriak Uruk said:


> So what's getting folks so excited? Is it Bladerunner, Free League's excited record, something else?



For me personally, it's a combination of multiple factors:
a) I really like that 90s Cyberpunk/SciFi noir atmosphere (I was a teenager in the 90s and that probably really shaped my preferences w.r.t. media)
b) Free League has done a number of games that a sweet spot for me (great production value, a bit of nostalgia, mostly solid mechanics)
c) I really like Martin Grip's art a lot - for me, he's basically the greatest asset Free League has

In addition, I think Free League now has enough brand recognition that people trust them to do good stuff (there were some hickups in the One Ring campaign, but overall, they do a pretty solid job). And they really know how to do social media marketing.


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## Nikosandros (May 4, 2022)

Morrus said:


> That initial goal was 'make sure we fund in the first hour' (or 3 minutes as the case may be). I imagine their private goal was far, far larger. But on things like this, KS goals are pretty much meaningless. It's just an arbitrary number; they're going to make the game anyway, and they're not going to risk setting a goal they might not accomplish and getting nothing.



I thought it was interesting that Flee, Mortals! had a goal of $600,000. It was unusually high, but I'm sure no one was doubting that it would be reached.


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## Morrus (May 4, 2022)

Nikosandros said:


> I thought it was interesting that Flee, Mortals! had a goal of $600,000. It was unusually high, but I'm sure no one was doubting that it would be reached.



Yeah, that was very unusual. I don’t really have any insight into that figure.


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## TerraDave (May 5, 2022)

They are approaching 1.5 million, and 10,000 backers, which seems like a very high pledge rate (at least without minis or something like that).

As for why Blade Runner...one of the greatest movies and novellas of all time? And Free League might be able to make a decent RPG out of it.

EDIT: Though not 1.5 million US dollars. It will probably get there at some point.


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## overgeeked (May 5, 2022)

TerraDave said:


> They are approaching 1.5 million, and 10,000 backers, which seems like a very high pledge rate (at least without minis or something like that).
> 
> As for why Blade Runner...one of the greatest movies and *novellas* of all time? And Free League might be able to make a decent RPG out of it.



It’s a novel, but you are right. It is one of the greatest novels of all time. And a rather spectacular movie, even if only loosely based on PKD’s novel.


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## TerraDave (May 5, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> It’s a novel, but you are right. It is one of the greatest novels of all time. And a rather spectacular movie, even if only loosely based on PKD’s novel.



Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep is a _short _novel. 

Ridley Scott of course directed the movie and can certainly take credit for its then distinctive take. And of course he did Alien just a few years earlier. 

Success with one Ridley Scott film based game could mean success with another. We will see.


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## overgeeked (May 5, 2022)

TerraDave said:


> Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep is a _short _novel.



By modern standards, sure. It was nominated as a novel for awards when it came out. It being on the short side doesn’t really matter. 


TerraDave said:


> Ridley Scott of course directed the movie and can certainly take credit for its then distinctive take. And of course he did Alien just a few years earlier.



It’s paranoid fiction mixed with sci-fi. Noir was the obvious way to go as it’s literally a detective story set in LA with all the nihilism and morality of a noir film. 


TerraDave said:


> Success with one Ridley Scott film based game could mean success with another. We will see.



And clearly a popular one. Did they do a Kickstarter for Alien? I don’t remember.


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## Nikosandros (May 5, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> And clearly a popular one. Did they do a Kickstarter for Alien? I don’t remember.



As I recall, they did not. They had a pre-order with some benefits.


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## Nikosandros (May 5, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> It’s a novel, but you are right. It is one of the greatest novels of all time. And a rather spectacular movie, even if only loosely based on PKD’s novel.



Yes, the movie and the novel are quite different. It's not only the plot or the absence of Mercerism in the movie, but, IMO, the whole reflection about being human and the role of the replicants (especially Rachel) in all of this.


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## TerraDave (May 5, 2022)

So I what I saw when I checked was Singapore dollars. I am not in Singapore...but that is what I see. 

Its still over 100 USD per pledger. But they will need a few more days to get to 1.5 million.


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## Morrus (May 5, 2022)

TerraDave said:


> So I what I saw when I checked was Singapore dollars. I am not in Singapore...but that is what I see.



You can select the currency at the bottom of the page. 

But Singapore dollars? Not Swedish Krona? That's weird! I suppose they're right next to each other on the dropdown menu.


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## Reynard (May 5, 2022)

Bladerunner was hugely influential on the visual identity of the cyberpunk genre, but I'm not sure how important it was outside aesthetic. The important themes came from DADOEC, of course, and Gibson popularized the literary form of the genre that RPGs embraced.


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## MGibster (May 5, 2022)

Reynard said:


> Bladerunner was hugely influential on the visual identity of the cyberpunk genre, but I'm not sure how important it was outside aesthetic. The important themes came from DADOEC, of course, and Gibson popularized the literary form of the genre that RPGs embraced.



I'lll be honest with you, I enjoyed _Blade Runner_ a lot more than I enjoyed _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.  _I've always thought of the movie as a very loose adaptation of Dick's work that essentially borrowed some concepts and went its own direction.  With _Alien_, Free League brought in a lot of information from the movies, but also from other sources including some things that appeared in the early draft of the Alien 3 script that didn't make it into the movie.  I'm a bit curious what, if any, elements from DADOEC Free League might incorporate into the game.


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## MGibster (May 5, 2022)

Weird double post.


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## Reynard (May 5, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I'lll be honest with you, I enjoyed _Blade Runner_ a lot more than I enjoyed _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.  _I've always thought of the movie as a very loose adaptation of Dick's work that essentially borrowed some concepts and went its own direction.  With _Alien_, Free League brought in a lot of information from the movies, but also from other sources including some things that appeared in the early draft of the Alien 3 script that didn't make it into the movie.  I'm a bit curious what, if any, elements from DADOEC Free League might incorporate into the game.



I feel like there is a LOT more lore surrounding Alien. Not just multiple movies, but novels and comics and games. I can't recall any "expanded universe" Bladerunner stuff except the 90s PC adventure game and some recent comics from when 2047 came out.


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## darjr (May 5, 2022)

There is an anime series, I think,  and some other content based in Dennis movie.

I know I’m an outlier but I really liked Dennis movie.


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## payn (May 5, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I'lll be honest with you, I enjoyed _Blade Runner_ a lot more than I enjoyed _Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep.  _I've always thought of the movie as a very loose adaptation of Dick's work that essentially borrowed some concepts and went its own direction.  With _Alien_, Free League brought in a lot of information from the movies, but also from other sources including some things that appeared in the early draft of the Alien 3 script that didn't make it into the movie.  I'm a bit curious what, if any, elements from DADOEC Free League might incorporate into the game.



I agree with the changes they decided on in the film. I think it was able to blend ambiance and story into just the right package for the run time. To really engage the psychological aspects of the novel you would need a lot more time for the setting and character changes to sink in and take effect.

I too am curious what extra elements the RPG might take!


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## Grendel_Khan (May 5, 2022)

darjr said:


> There is an anime series, I think,  and some other content based in Dennis movie.
> 
> I know I’m an outlier but I really liked Dennis movie.




They've said they're pulling from Black Lotus, among other things (comics, video games, etc.).

And I don't know if liking BR 2049 makes you an outlier, necessarily, but there are definitely lots of detractors. I'm not one of them. I think it's amazing, and as good as the first one!


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## Grendel_Khan (May 5, 2022)

So, uh, this is gonna make some folks mad. From the campaign FAQ:

Have you considered a solo mode?

Yes, we have considered it, but given the investigative nature of the Case Files, a solo mode would not just be a brief addition, but almost an entirely new game. For now, it is out of the scope for this Kickstarter.


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## overgeeked (May 5, 2022)

Reynard said:


> I feel like there is a LOT more lore surrounding Alien. Not just multiple movies, but novels and comics and games. I can't recall any "expanded universe" Bladerunner stuff except the 90s PC adventure game and some recent comics from when 2047 came out.



The expanded universe of Alien is a lot bigger and a lot more popular, but there is some for BR. Three novels, the sequel film, the three short films, and the anime.


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## Mezuka (May 5, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> The expanded universe of Alien is a lot bigger and a lot more popular, but there is some for BR. Three novels, the sequel film, the three short films, and the anime.



Wasn't there a short-lived tv series (late 90, early 2000) based on Blade Runner? I recall watching episodes but can't find any info.


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## eyeheartawk (May 5, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Wasn't there a short-lived tv series (late 90, early 2000) based on Blade Runner? I recall watching episodes but can't find any info.



Yeah, you're thinking of Designing Women


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## Mezuka (May 5, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Wasn't there a short-lived tv series (late 90, early 2000) based on Blade Runner? I recall watching episodes but can't find any info.



It was the Total Recall 2070 series (1999).









						Total Recall 2070 (TV Series 1999) - IMDb
					

Total Recall 2070: Created by Philip K. Dick, Art Monterastelli. With Michael Easton, Karl Pruner, Cynthia Preston, Michael Anthony Rawlins. A detective for a police agency is teamed with a naive new officer, who is secretly an android, and often conflicts with the Assessor's Office and the...




					www.imdb.com


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## overgeeked (May 5, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Wasn't there a short-lived tv series (late 90, early 2000) based on Blade Runner? I recall watching episodes but can't find any info.





Mezuka said:


> It was the Total Recall 2070 series (1999).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, pop culture is dirty with Philip K Dick adaptations. Blade Runner is the most popular of them, but there's not much there besides the novels and the movies.


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## Willie the Duck (May 5, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> It was the Total Recall 2070 series (1999).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That was actually one of the better Friday/Saturday Night syndicated sci-fi/adventure series from that era. Of all the ones made trying to capitalize on the _Hercules/Xena/Highlander/Baywatch_ syndication boom and/or Canadian/New Zealand tax incentives, I think I like it the best (_Beastmaster _and _Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's The Lost World_ being competitive). That it died and is all but forgotten but _Andromeda _succeeded enough to at least still be remembered by many is kinda sad.


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

Free League has put out a Q&A video about the game and posted a few rules snippets as an update on the Kickstarter. The more I hear about it the more excited I am. I hope they hit the design out of the park and it sounds like they have. 










						Update 9: A Look at the Game Mechanics & the Character Sheet · BLADE RUNNER – The Roleplaying Game
					

Hello! We're about midway into the Kickstarter for the BLADE RUNNER RPG, and we want to take this opportunity to again thank you for your support! To learn more about the game and the process of creating it, feel free to check out the live stream yesterday on the Free League YouTube channel with...




					www.kickstarter.com


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## aramis erak (May 15, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Free League has put out a Q&A video about the game and posted a few rules snippets as an update on the Kickstarter. The more I hear about it the more excited I am. I hope they hit the design out of the park and it sounds like they have.



notiing that it is the same core mechanics as T2K 4E, I'm really looking forward to it. T2K 4E was great. I was hoping for closer to Alien, but the T2K flavor works fine, so it will be interesting to see the details on damage taking and pushing rolls.


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> notiing that it is the same core mechanics as T2K 4E, I'm really looking forward to it. T2K 4E was great. I was hoping for closer to Alien, but the T2K flavor works fine, so it will be interesting to see the details on damage taking and pushing rolls.



From the sounds of things, the mechanics for humans and replicants work slightly differently. Which is too bad. I kinda hoped that you wouldn't be able to tell that it could always be in question whether your character was human or a replicant. Seems like a missed opportunity. Though a minor one.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 15, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> From the sounds of things, the mechanics for humans and replicants work slightly differently. Which is too bad. I kinda hoped that you wouldn't be able to tell that it could always be in question whether your character was human or a replicant. Seems like a missed opportunity. Though a minor one.



There was an interview some months back where the lead designer said they specifically wanted to avoid that trope, because the movies had already explored it enough, and also they didn’t want players to be obsessing over that instead of other themes and possible twists.  

But also in the fiction it doesn’t make much sense by 2037. New Replicants have identifying tags in their eyes. So you’d have to be a much older model, and in that case you’d get outed when you joined, by the LAPD’s baseline and/or VK tests. 

And if you wanted to do the secret Replicant thing you could just do a version of what Alien does, where normally Synthetics follow different rules from humans (no pushing), but a secret Synth just uses the regular mechanics until they’re outed.


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## payn (May 15, 2022)

I thought I heard something about if you dont want to know if the character is human or replicant, the GM can roll in secret?


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> There was an interview some months back where the lead designer said they specifically wanted to avoid that trope, because the movies had already explored it enough, and also they didn’t want players to be obsessing over that instead of other themes and possible twists.
> 
> But also in the fiction it doesn’t make much sense by 2037. New Replicants have identifying tags in their eyes. So you’d have to be a much older model, and in that case you’d get outed when you joined, by the LAPD’s baseline and/or VK tests.
> 
> And if you wanted to do the secret Replicant thing you could just do a version of what Alien does, where normally Synthetics follow different rules from humans (no pushing), but a secret Synth just uses the regular mechanics until they’re outed.



Weird. So the game designers are intentionally avoiding one of the major themes of the franchise. That seems…huh. Good thing they like noir and investigation. Otherwise they might decide to avoid those themes, too. At least I found my first thing to house rule.

ETA: Also, doesn’t that whole line of reasoning make the entire premise of the game pointless? You play replicant hunting Blade Runners who are tasked with discovering and retiring rogue replicants…and all you have to do is look at their right eye and you know who’s who. Wow. How exciting.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 15, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Weird. So the game designers are intentionally avoiding one of the major themes of the franchise. That seems…huh. Good thing they like noir and investigation. Otherwise they might decide to avoid those themes, too. At least I found my first thing to house rule.
> 
> ETA: Also, doesn’t that whole line of reasoning make the entire premise of the game pointless? You play replicant hunting Blade Runners who are tasked with discovering and retiring rogue replicants…and all you have to do is look at their right eye and you know who’s who. Wow. How exciting.



I hear you, but I think they’re doing the right thing. The idea is not to rehash the original movie entirely, since that’s such a specific and contained story. So instead you’re dealing with cases that involve Replicants, but that aren’t always (or even usually, it seems) runaways. Maybe a Rep was killed. Maybe they’re a suspect. Maybe the victim is a Rep. It’s something different from the first movie, but drawing from similar themes and a similar—but different, given the later chronology—setting. 

Which, again, I think makes it a potentially more functional RPG. Otherwise all you’re doing is replaying Blade Runner in a way that would makes no sense in the setting, since it’s not like they’re going to have tons of Deckard-like unknowing Reps doing this work, especially given how his last case ended. And this approach also makes things a bit less icky to embody as a player—sure you’re sometimes a futuristic slave catcher, but not always, and sometimes you’re avenging a slave’s murder, while also grappling with being a slave yourself. 

In that sense it’s maybe closer to BR 2049. I can see how that could limit the appeal. But to me it’s awesome, in part because I thought BR 2049 was awesome.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 15, 2022)

payn said:


> I thought I heard something about if you dont want to know if the character is human or replicant, the GM can roll in secret?



Don’t think that would really work. GM would have to keep track of the PCs actual mental damage in secret, since Replicants take mental damage from pushing physical tests, instead of physical damage. Once it hit the point where you’re pushed over the edge from taking too much mental damage, the player would realize their own damage numbers don’t match reality. Plus Replicants roll on a different table when broken by stress. 

Only way to do it would be to either treat them as humans in every way till they find out, or let that first time they take tons of mental damage be the reveal. 

But the game is very focused, premise-wise, so unwitting Rep PCs just don’t make sense. You’re on the LAPD’s Rep-related squad. All the archetypes reflect that. You handle case files and have Promotion pts. And there are rules for failing your Baseline test (if you’re a Rep member of the squad) with mechanical consequences, but also in the setting Reps in that unit are constantly tested. Maybe in future supplements they could get into secret Rep PCs, but for better or worse this first book is really zoomed in on one kind of setup.


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I hear you, but I think they’re doing the right thing.



How can gutting a core theme of the franchise and neutering the investigation pillar of the game be the right thing? If all you have to do is look in the eye of a replicant to tell they're not human...there's no investigation to be had. They talked a fair amount in that hour-long interview about various ways to detect replicants. If it were as easy as looking in the eye, I doubt they'd not mention it. I don't remember that being in Blade Runner 2049. It was in two of the short films that bridge the original and 2049. Here's to hoping they exclude that.


Grendel_Khan said:


> The idea is not to rehash the original movie entirely, since that’s such a specific and contained story.



If that's their thinking then they don't understand doing a nostalgia product. I mean, they didn't eschew the horror in Aliens, so clearly they're smart enough to not mangle the franchise they're trying to capitalize on. No idea why they'd suddenly shy away from the franchise they're trying to capitalize on.


Grendel_Khan said:


> So instead you’re dealing with cases that involve Replicants, but that aren’t always (or even usually, it seems) runaways. Maybe a Rep was killed. Maybe they’re a suspect. Maybe the victim is a Rep. It’s something different from the first movie, but drawing from similar themes and a similar—but different, given the later chronology—setting.



Then I need to cancel my pledge. I'm not buying a Blade Runner game so I can not do Blade Runner the game.


Grendel_Khan said:


> Which, again, I think makes it a potentially more functional RPG. Otherwise all you’re doing is replaying Blade Runner in a way that would makes no sense in the setting, since it’s not like they’re going to have tons of Deckard-like unknowing Reps doing this work, especially given how his last case ended.



Add don't subtract. You can easily do Blade Runner plus all the related things you mention without subtracting doing actual Blade Runner.


Grendel_Khan said:


> And this approach also makes things a bit less icky to embody as a player—sure you’re sometimes a futuristic slave catcher, but not always, and sometimes you’re avenging a slave’s murder, while also grappling with being a slave yourself.



Yeah...less icky is not what this franchise or game is about. They're even upfront about it on the Kickstarter. 

"Content Warning! The Blade Runner franchise deals with dark and existential themes, and this roleplaying game is no different. The stories told in this game can be violent, distressing, and raise issues relating to personal morals. This is not a game for children."


Grendel_Khan said:


> In that sense it’s maybe closer to BR 2049.



I really hope not.


Grendel_Khan said:


> I can see how that could limit the appeal.



Yeah. Absolutely.


Grendel_Khan said:


> But to me it’s awesome, in part because I thought BR 2049 was awesome.



It sure was pretty to look at.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 15, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> If that's their thinking then they don't understand doing a nostalgia product. I mean, they didn't eschew the horror in Aliens, so clearly they're smart enough to not mangle the franchise they're trying to capitalize on. No idea why they'd suddenly shy away from the franchise they're trying to capitalize on.
> 
> Then I need to cancel my pledge. I'm not buying a Blade Runner game so I can not do Blade Runner the game.




Yeah, man, cancel away, if that’s what you want. But no need to shoot the messenger with this snipped up response to me. I’m just sharing what the project really is—all you have to do is read what they’ve released. 

I do think some amount of people are engaged in magical thinking with this game, and not accepting just how BR 2049 derived it is. But…I think that’s really on them. FL isn’t hiding any of that at all, and if anything the bulk of the lore and setting details they’ve presented in the campaign are dearly pulled from that movie, not the original. Back if you want, don’t if you don’t.


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> But no need to shoot the messenger with this snipped up response to me. I’m just sharing what the project really is—all you have to do is read what they’ve released.



Too bad FL isn't sharing "what the project really is" on the actual Kickstarter. You referenced some interview where you pulled that from. Looking at the Kickstarter page doesn't reveal what you're saying. So it's not "magical thinking" it's taking FL at their word as presented on the Kickstarter. If that's not what they're actually going to do, then they're misleading backers.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 15, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Too bad FL isn't sharing "what the project really is" on the actual Kickstarter. You referenced some interview where you pulled that from. Looking at the Kickstarter page doesn't reveal what you're saying. So it's not "magical thinking" it's taking FL at their word as presented on the Kickstarter. If that's not what they're actually going to do, then they're misleading backers.



The only thing I mentioned that was from the interview was the designer saying explicitly that they don't want to do the secret Replicant trope. But everything else I talked about is from their campaign description and Kickstarter updates, and the lack of the secret Rep aspect is evident in that. They aren't misleading anyone. You're just not looking at what's clearly laid out as the premise of the game, and the specific setting. It's all there. Just stop making assumptions, and read it.


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## payn (May 15, 2022)

Thats a major bummer. Hopefully the game isn't too hard to hack and get the secret rep aspect in.


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> The only thing I mentioned that was from the interview was the designer saying explicitly that they don't want to do the secret Replicant trope.



Got a link?


Grendel_Khan said:


> But everything else I talked about is from their campaign description and Kickstarter updates, and the lack of the secret Rep aspect is evident in that.



Quote the bit on the Kickstarter where it says they’re not doing secret replicants.


Grendel_Khan said:


> They aren't misleading anyone. You're just not looking at what's clearly laid out as the premise of the game, and the specific setting. It's all there. Just stop making assumptions, and read it.



If it’s so clear you can quote from the Kickstarter where they say what you think they’re saying.


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

payn said:


> Thats a major bummer. Hopefully the game isn't too hard to hack and get the secret rep aspect in.



Yeah, it’s a weird assertion to make. You know that franchise you love that centers on this one question…yeah, we’re going to make a game all about that franchise…but not bother with that one central question. For reasons. And further, we’re not going to come out and say that on the Kickstarter…we’re going to hide that in an interview somewhere and hope people don’t notice it.


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## overgeeked (May 15, 2022)

So if the major difference between replicants and humans is how health and resolve are calculated and pushed rolls, you could easily fix that. Average the methods for replicant and human in determining health and resolve. And base your pushed rolls on your humanity score. The lower your humanity, the more you function like a replicant. The higher your humanity, the more you function like a human. Pick a spot on the scale where your pushed rolls switch. And done.


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## payn (May 15, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Yeah, it’s a weird assertion to make. You know that franchise you love that centers on this one question…yeah, we’re going to make a game all about that franchise…but not bother with that one central question. For reasons. And further, we’re not going to come out and say that on the Kickstarter…we’re going to hide that in an interview somewhere and hope people don’t notice it.



I do get some of the parts of BR2049 made detecting Reps much easier, which is also a bummer because I think it would be fun conducting a Voight-Kampf test on NPCs. 

Either way the materials look great and I look forward to it, even if its seemingly missing a few notes of the BR material.


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## overgeeked (May 16, 2022)

payn said:


> I do get some of the parts of BR2049 made detecting Reps much easier, which is also a bummer because I think it would be fun conducting a Voight-Kampf test on NPCs.
> 
> Either way the materials look great and I look forward to it, even if its seemingly missing a few notes of the BR material.



Right. Which is another oddity. The FL people have specifically said the VK test has mechanics in the game. With the lore update and easily spotted replicants, there’s no need for that. Unless the extremely edge case of Nexus-8s with a missing right eye.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 16, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Got a link?
> 
> Quote the bit on the Kickstarter where it says they’re not doing secret replicants.
> 
> If it’s so clear you can quote from the Kickstarter where they say what you think they’re saying.




I don't work for FL, and I'm not some sort of master detective that deployed my network of contacts to sleuth this out. Not going to hunt down and provide some detailed source list, especially given that you're still on the attack in such a weird, internet-forums-conditioned way. Go forth and click through updates, drawing your own basic conclusions, or gripe about it on the campaign. I tried to provide context, but I'm done. Good luck.


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## Fenhorn (May 16, 2022)

Regarding what you can play. FL have said in interviews that you can play replicant, human but also a human that may be a replicant (the player doesn't know). In Alien RPG they solved this by letting the player use all the rules for being human until it is known that he isn't human. The same could be done here.

Unlike Alien RPG, you can't (as far as I know) play a replicant that hide his nature for the other players but he himself knows it. That would be PvP and that kind of play works better in Alien RPG.


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## aramis erak (May 17, 2022)

Fenhorn said:


> Regarding what you can play. FL have said in interviews that you can play replicant, human but also a human that may be a replicant (the player doesn't know). In Alien RPG they solved this by letting the player use all the rules for being human until it is known that he isn't human. The same could be done here.
> 
> Unlike Alien RPG, you can't (as far as I know) play a replicant that hide his nature for the other players but he himself knows it. That would be PvP and that kind of play works better in Alien RPG.



Many YZE games are set so PVP is possible. 

Alien especially  so, for the cinematic modules. Also note: the Alien rules also note that once a "hidden" synthetic reveals, it no longer has a stress total. The involuntary ways include any hit that opens the skin... and they cannot turn it back on in the cinematic adventure (which is really a mini-campaign each, in my experience of 4 runs of the Cinematics; 3 of Chariot, 1 of Destroyer.

T2K 4e can easily support PVP, but the setting really is a bit harsh for players to want PVP...

The base assumptions in most YZE games include everyone has an in-party rival and in-party buddy.


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## Fenhorn (May 17, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> Many YZE games are set so PVP is possible.
> 
> Alien especially  so, for the cinematic modules. Also note: the Alien rules also note that once a "hidden" synthetic reveals, it no longer has a stress total. The involuntary ways include any hit that opens the skin... and they cannot turn it back on in the cinematic adventure (which is really a mini-campaign each, in my experience of 4 runs of the Cinematics; 3 of Chariot, 1 of Destroyer.
> 
> ...



In alien an androids looks different on the inside, a replicant doesn't. A replicant can get injured without revealing that he is a replicant. In BR it is apparently very hard to detect a replicant, inside or outside, so hard that it takes a special test to do it (at least in the first movie).

You have a rival in Alien, a game that does support PvP, even though the concept of rival has nothing to do with PvP, it is just a feature to promote roleplay. In other YZE-games have, the characters have a buddy, best friend and you sometimes write a sentence what you think of the person.
The only other (English) game FL make use of PvP is Mutant: Elysium.


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## MGibster (May 17, 2022)

Fenhorn said:


> In alien an androids looks different on the inside, a replicant doesn't. A replicant can get injured without revealing that he is a replicant. In BR it is apparently very hard to detect a replicant, inside or outside, so hard that it takes a special test to do it (at least in the first movie).



I prefer the term "Artifical Person" myself.  In the first movie, you could get clues from the physical actions the replicants performed.  Leon and Roy's feats of strength as well as Pris removing the egg from boiling water with her bare hands with no apparent harm.  But, yeah, they're hard to tell from humans.  I guess because they really are human.


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## overgeeked (May 17, 2022)

Do we have any reliable estimates of the U shape of Kickstarters and where they end up? I know KickTraq and it’s not reliable. Was it something like about 1/3 in the first few days, 1/3 over the long saggy middle, and 1/3 in the last few days…roughly?


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## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Do we have any reliable estimates of the U shape of Kickstarters and where they end up? I know KickTraq and it’s not reliable. Was it something like about 1/3 in the first few days, 1/3 over the long saggy middle, and 1/3 in the last few days…roughly?



Ish, yeah. Bit more weighted to the start than the end.


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## payn (May 17, 2022)

Looks like Roll20 support is on the stretch goals now.


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## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

payn said:


> Looks like Roll20 support is on the stretch goals now.



That’s interesting. Roll20’s ToC forbids content from being a stretch goal, IRC. We ran up against that.


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## Yora (May 17, 2022)

MGibster said:


> I prefer the term "Artifical Person" myself.  In the first movie, you could get clues from the physical actions the replicants performed.  Leon and Roy's feats of strength as well as Pris removing the egg from boiling water with her bare hands with no apparent harm.  But, yeah, they're hard to tell from humans.  I guess because they really are human.



Leon always gave me the impression like he's meant to be a meat forklift.

Makes no economic or technological sense, but that's kind of the defining feature of Philip Dick stories.


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## payn (May 17, 2022)

Morrus said:


> That’s interesting. Roll20’s ToC forbids content from being a stretch goal, IRC. We ran up against that.







Are modules different?


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## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

payn said:


> View attachment 157237
> 
> Are modules different?



I honestly don't recall the specifics. I could be remembering wrong. But there was a reason we didn't do that.


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## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

Ah, I guess they have arranged something with Roll20 -- 

"Roll20 works with publishers on an individual basis for crowdfunding campaigns. Use of the Roll20 trademark without our authorization is not allowed. Do not promise Roll20 rewards for your campaign without our permission. Doing so is cause for us to contact the crowdfunding platform to have unauthorized use pulled from the site."


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## payn (May 17, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Ah, I guess they have arranged something with Roll20 --
> 
> "Roll20 works with publishers on an individual basis for crowdfunding campaigns. Use of the Roll20 trademark without our authorization is not allowed. Do not promise Roll20 rewards for your campaign without our permission. Doing so is cause for us to contact the crowdfunding platform to have unauthorized use pulled from the site."



Im guessing this explains why Foundry was one of the earliest stretch goals and Roll20 came much later. FL was likely working out the deets with Roll20.


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## overgeeked (May 17, 2022)

Looking back over the thread and the Kickstarter’s progress, Blade Runner RPG is kinda underwhelming right now in terms of money. Hit $1 million early on day two…and has barely managed $400,000 more in the 13 days since. With 9 days to go will it break $2 million?


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## Reynard (May 17, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Looking back over the thread and the Kickstarter’s progress, Blade Runner RPG is kinda underwhelming right now in terms of money. Hit $1 million early on day two…and has barely managed $400,000 more in the 13 days since. With 9 days to go will it break $2 million?



I think that's a strong indication that those that want this game REALLY want it and jumped on quickly, but outside of that baked in market there might not be much demand. I wonder if they use the KS to get an idea of how much to send to stores and stuff? I don't know enough about the printing side to know whether they still have to do big print runs to be economically feasible.


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## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Looking back over the thread and the Kickstarter’s progress, Blade Runner RPG is kinda underwhelming right now in terms of money. Hit $1 million early on day two…and has barely managed $400,000 more in the 13 days since. With 9 days to go will it break $2 million?



It shows how outlooks have changed when folks are saying that under $2M is underwhelming.


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## overgeeked (May 17, 2022)

Morrus said:


> It shows how outlooks have changed when folks are saying that under $2M is underwhelming.



Maybe it's poor phrasing then. I meant more that given it hit $1 million early on day two that it looked like it was going to be doing much better by now than it actually is.


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## MGibster (May 17, 2022)

Yora said:


> Leon always gave me the impression like he's meant to be a meat forklift.
> 
> Makes no economic or technological sense, but that's kind of the defining feature of Philip Dick stories.



I think they're all pretty strong as Zhora, Leon, Roy, and even Pris were all able to overpower Deckard at various points.  Leon was designed specifically for physical work, Zhora was some sort of assassin, Pris was a pleasure model, and I think Roy was a soldier.


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## overgeeked (May 17, 2022)

Yora said:


> Leon always gave me the impression like he's meant to be a meat forklift.
> 
> Makes no economic or technological sense, but that's kind of the defining feature of Philip Dick stories.



The trouble is in the adaptation, not the original PKD story. A lot of the context that makes it make sense was removed for the movie. A world war irradiates the planet, kills off the majority of the animal life on the planet, and begins mutating humanity. To survive, humanity must go off-world, but only those who are not mutated by the radiation are legally allowed to emigrate. Their numbers are not sufficient to build, much less maintain, off-world colonies...so they create genetically engineered slaves...replicants...for those rich enough and "pure" enough to go off-world.

And it's important to remember how difficult it is to tell replicants apart from humans. They're basically genetically altered clones. They're not computers with metal legs and rubber "skin". They're not robots. We could do this now, with real world technology. We can and have cloned humans. We have CRISPR. What prevents us from doing it is the thin veneer of ethics we call civilization, neither economics nor technology.


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## Yora (May 17, 2022)

Robots would be easier and cheaper.

Philip Dick stories are really horror first and science fiction second. And the horror is about dissolving the boundaries of the self and being stripped of the fundamentals of humanity. I see the sci-fi elements as a tool for turning these ideas into narratives that can be communicated. They don't need to make any more sense than in Star Trek or Inception.


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## ruemere (May 17, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> The trouble is in the adaptation, not the original PKD story. A lot of the context that makes it make sense was removed for the movie. A world war irradiates the planet, kills off the majority of the animal life on the planet, and begins mutating humanity. To survive, humanity must go off-world, but only those who are not mutated by the radiation are legally allowed to emigrate. Their numbers are not sufficient to build, much less maintain, off-world colonies...so they create genetically engineered slaves...replicants...for those rich enough and "pure" enough to go off-world.
> 
> And it's important to remember how difficult it is to tell replicants apart from humans. They're basically genetically altered clones. They're not computers with metal legs and rubber "skin". They're not robots. We could do this now, with real world technology. We can and have cloned humans. We have CRISPR. What prevents us from doing it is the thin veneer of ethics we call civilization, neither economics nor technology.



This. Also, in the novel the humans as the species are dealing with major existential crisis. They essentially are facing their own psychological extinction event - that's why Rick is having artificially induced quarrel with his wife, that's why there is the artificial participation in the suffering of their new Saviour.

Humanity is going back to its roots in search of a meaning to its existence.

At the same time Replicants are imbued with all psychological qualities humans lost. They struggle because they were built to do so. Their lack of free will makes them not-human.

Rachel's act of vengeance vs. Deckard lack of ability to question himself is at the core of the novel.

The first film presents similar issue in a subtler way: Replicants are guided by their memories, their need to accumulate the new ones, and their expiration once the new memories take them beyond their original mental design. Roy the soldier becomes a son and a judge. Leon - an infiltrator and a grieving spouse. Zora and Priss seek to form a family, form bonds - Leon is genuinely upset despite lack of empathy toward others being a fundamental trait of Nexus 6 generation.

Rachel in this case is an attempt to go further beyond the design - she rises in her humanity, while Deckard falls by losing bits of his.

The novel and the first film approach similar subject, with the novel being much more pessimistic despite Deckard being "saved" by Mercer and Rachel.

I wonder if the game will allow us to explore the novel concepts.


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## ruemere (May 17, 2022)

Yora said:


> Robots would be easier and cheaper.
> 
> Philip Dick stories are really horror first and science fiction second. And the horror is about dissolving the boundaries of the self and being stripped of the fundamentals of humanity. I see the sci-fi elements as a tool for turning these ideas into narratives that can be communicated. They don't need to make any more sense than in Star Trek or Inception.



Isaac Asimov answered this question: human body is versatile in its application, while a car is not. As long as the core processing unit has two hands, can walk, has access to knowledge and skills, it can build the rest of the civilization.

So, to a new planet you should send R. Daniel Olivav, not Tesla.

PS. I know it's SciFi golden age point of view. Nowadays we would probably go with nanites and a self replicating hive mind.


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## Grendel_Khan (May 17, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Looking back over the thread and the Kickstarter’s progress, Blade Runner RPG is kinda underwhelming right now in terms of money. Hit $1 million early on day two…and has barely managed $400,000 more in the 13 days since. With 9 days to go will it break $2 million?



I've been pretty surprised at how slow the progress has been, too. It's moving along at about half the daily rate of TOR 2e during the same period in its campaign.

Maybe that's because there aren't as many add-ons? More people want to buy this stuff than play it.

But also TOR 2e had some really juicy additional content as stretch goals, like additional books. Maybe they realized in hindsight that it wasn't worth stretching themselves like that? Or maybe it's just that they can't exactly pump out or even promise to pump out a slew of additional BR books, since that means making up tons of new lore and having all of it approved by Alcion (whereas with a LotR license there's tons of available source material that's part of the license).

Plus, TOR 2e had a monster final stretch goal: solo mode. That seemed to really light a fire under the campaign. I get why FL doesn't want to try for that as part of this first BR campaign, but I don't know if they can come up with a similarly enticing stretch goal, unless they figure out more dice colors or an origami unicorn kit or something (barf).


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## overgeeked (May 17, 2022)

Yora said:


> Robots would be easier and cheaper.



Except they're not. No robot can do what a human can do. Not completely. And not all in one package. One or two robots can out perform humans at chess or go. One or two robots can compete on Jeopardy. Giant, stationary robots can lift and move huge weights. And they're far more expensive than clones. Look at real-world present day technology. And it's fiction. It's the author's prerogative to write the story however they want.


Yora said:


> Philip Dick stories are really horror first and science fiction second.



As someone who's read almost every word the man ever published, I think that's laughably inaccurate.


Yora said:


> And the horror is about dissolving the boundaries of the self and being stripped of the fundamentals of humanity. I see the sci-fi elements as a tool for turning these ideas into narratives that can be communicated. They don't need to make any more sense than in Star Trek or Inception.



The bulk of PKD's work centers around the nature of reality and perception of it. Some of his stories deal with what it means to be human, memories, and empathy...like Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? and We Can Remember it For You Wholesale.

If asking questions like "what does it mean to be human?" and "what is the nature of reality?" makes something horror for you, then I guess you could twist and mangle PKD's work and call it horror. But it's really not.


ruemere said:


> Also, in the novel the humans as the species are dealing with major existential crisis. They essentially are facing their own psychological extinction event - that's why Rick is having *artificially induced quarrel with his wife*, that's why there is the artificial participation in the suffering of their new Saviour.



At the start of the novel they're fighting over whether Iran, Deckard's wife, will use the mood organ to artificially change her mood to something happy or positive. It's not a fight that's artificially induced.

And physical extinction event as well.


ruemere said:


> Humanity is going back to its roots in search of a meaning to its existence.



They seem to have found it with the empathy box and Mercerism. I'm not sure that's what I'd call "roots" of humanity.


ruemere said:


> At the same time Replicants are imbued with all psychological qualities humans lost. They struggle because they were built to do so. Their lack of free will makes them not-human.
> 
> Rachel's act of vengeance vs. Deckard lack of ability to question himself is at the core of the novel.
> 
> The novel and the first film approach similar subject, with the novel being much more pessimistic despite Deckard being "saved" by Mercer and Rachel.



No offense meant, but you might want to re-read the novel. I just finished it for like the 20th time a few days ago and this doesn't track.

Some humans are mutated and less smart than baseline humans. Replicants are also designed with a range of mental capabilities. The only thing replicants lack is empathy. They have free will. Which is necessary for them to rebel, kill humans, and illegally go to earth...which is the inciting incident that kicks off the novel. If they had no free will...there'd be no novel.

Rachel does what she does specifically because Deckard doesn't lover her more than his wife and his pet.

And the second 1/3 to 1/2 of the novel is Deckard questioning himself.

In what way does Rachel save Deckard in the novel? That's not how it plays out.


ruemere said:


> I wonder if the game will allow us to explore the novel concepts.



I really hope so. There's so much more texture and richness to the novel than the movies.


Grendel_Khan said:


> I've been pretty surprised at how slow the progress has been, too. It's moving along at about half the daily rate of TOR 2e during the same period in its campaign.
> 
> Maybe that's because there aren't as many add-ons? More people want to buy this stuff than play it.
> 
> ...



I'm not sure they're even going to make the listed stretch goals, much less any new ones added on.

I'm a dice fiend and I don't care about the dice colors. Or the origami foil cover vs the kanji. It's weird. There's only like two people talking about those things. I'm much more interested in solo mode. I think it would be far easier than Tomas estimates. Whatever random process they're using for the random case file generation system could just as easily be used by the player as they play. Mystery games aren't about hiding information behind rolls, they're about deciphering what the information means. And something like Blade Runner is more action-adventure with a dose of noir. From the start Deckard knows who is and who isn't a replicant and simply tracks them down. In the book there's more of a "who's who" and mystery element. Unless they add a lot of proper murder mystery and noir to the game, it's not likely to be a huge pillar.


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## ruemere (May 17, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> [...]
> At the start of the novel they're fighting over whether Iran, Deckard's wife, will use the mood organ to artificially change her mood to something happy or positive. It's not a fight that's artificially induced.




Ok, that's just my interpretation of the scene - I cannot throw a quote at you 

You are assuming that their moods at the beginning were natural. Given the premise of my interpretation, they were most likely not - why would a artificial mood junkie start a downer day in baseline depression? 



overgeeked said:


> They seem to have found it with the empathy box and Mercerism. I'm not sure that's what I'd call "roots" of humanity.




That depends on whether you consider faith to be a core of what it is to be a human. In the novel, Mercerism is a finished product, like a tv-set or a book, sold to those who want to use it. 

Given Dick's nature of religious experiences (The Exegesis of Philip K. Dick - Wikipedia.), I would say that being able to participate in a suffering a savior does qualify. 
I do not know whether you're familiar with Catholic ritual of Stations of the Cross (Stations of the Cross - Wikipedia), Mercer functions as a more intimate version.

Again, this is symbol of end times according to Dick - you purchase and apply your spirituality and feelings.



overgeeked said:


> No offense meant, but you might want to re-read the novel. I just finished it for like the 20th time a few days ago and this doesn't track.
> 
> Some humans are mutated and less smart than baseline humans. Replicants are also designed with a range of mental capabilities. The only thing replicants lack is empathy. They have free will. Which is necessary for them to rebel, kill humans, and illegally go to earth...which is the inciting incident that kicks off the novel. If they had no free will...there'd be no novel.




That's your interpretation. Mine's a bit different - why would you rebel and escape to poisoned earth? Why this need is present on such a massive scale that a specialized police has been instituted to hunt down escapees?  Also, if the replicants are quasi humans, why they do not use all these control measures needed by humans? Is it really their free will that spurs them on a lemming-like migration?



overgeeked said:


> Rachel does what she does specifically because Deckard doesn't lover her more than his wife and his pet.
> 
> And the second 1/3 to 1/2 of the novel is Deckard questioning himself.




Both of these sort of prove my point - Rachel's act of vengeance is quite human. And Deckard's questioning himself begins only after his experiences with Rachel and Mercer - in the beginning there is not an ounce of anything beyond routine stuff in his mind. Even when he is informed that his colleague was mauled, or that he is supposed to retire remaining replicants, there is nothing (well, I do not recall anything) that would indicate he is doubting or self-reflecting on his life.



overgeeked said:


> In what way does Rachel save Deckard in the novel? That's not how it plays out.




His feelings become genuine. His state of mind when he find that the frog is electric is quite natural. Rachel gets to him - makes him feel.



overgeeked said:


> I really hope so. There's so much more texture and richness to the novel than the movies.
> 
> I'm not sure they're even going to make the listed stretch goals, much less any new ones added on.
> 
> I'm a dice fiend and I don't care about the dice colors. Or the origami foil cover vs the kanji. It's weird. There's only like two people talking about those things. I'm much more interested in solo mode. I think it would be far easier than Tomas estimates. Whatever random process they're using for the random case file generation system could just as easily be used by the player as they play. Mystery games aren't about hiding information behind rolls, they're about deciphering what the information means. And something like Blade Runner is more action-adventure with a dose of noir. From the start Deckard knows who is and who isn't a replicant and simply tracks them down. In the book there's more of a "who's who" and mystery element. Unless they add a lot of proper murder mystery and noir to the game, it's not likely to be a huge pillar.




 I have high hopes for Fria Lingan.


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## overgeeked (May 17, 2022)

ruemere said:


> Ok, that's just my interpretation of the scene - I cannot throw a quote at you
> 
> You are assuming that their moods at the beginning were natural. Given the premise of my interpretation, they were most likely not - why would a artificial mood junkie start a downer day in baseline depression?



Again, you should consider reading the book. Iran explicitly states why she dials a downer mood.


ruemere said:


> That's your interpretation. Mine's a bit different - why would you rebel and escape to poisoned earth? Why this need is present on such a massive scale that a specialized police has been instituted to hunt down escapees?  Also, if the replicants are quasi humans, why they do not use all these control measures needed by humans? Is it really their free will that spurs them on a lemming-like migration?



So the replicants are following their human-derived programming by murdering humans, illegally emigrating to Earth, and in response to the replicants following their human-derived programming the humans set up a kill squad to hunt down and murder replicants...in order to pointlessly risk the lives of humans and waste time and money...just because. Sorry, that's too much mental gynmastics to make sense of. The androids of the novel explicitly have free will. Sorry you disagree with PKD and what he wrote.


ruemere said:


> Both of these sort of prove my point - Rachel's act of vengeance is quite human. And Deckard's questioning himself begins only after his experiences with Rachel and Mercer - in the beginning there is not an ounce of anything beyond routine stuff in his mind. Even when he is informed that his colleague was mauled, or that he is supposed to retire remaining replicants, there is nothing (well, I do not recall anything) that would indicate he is doubting or self-reflecting on his life.
> 
> His feelings become genuine. His state of mind when he find that the frog is electric is quite natural. Rachel gets to him - makes him feel.



Again, I'd suggest reading the book. It might have been a few years since you read it because you're jumbling a few events chronologically in the book and forgetting a character or two that are the ones who cause this change in Deckard that you're attributing entirely to Rachel. She's involved in the process, but other characters start it. 

This seems like a pointless tangent and a waste of time, so I'm leaving it here.


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## aramis erak (May 18, 2022)

Fenhorn said:


> In alien an androids looks different on the inside, a replicant doesn't. A replicant can get injured without revealing that he is a replicant. In BR it is apparently very hard to detect a replicant, inside or outside, so hard that it takes a special test to do it (at least in the first movie).
> 
> You have a rival in Alien, a game that does support PvP, even though the concept of rival has nothing to do with PvP, it is just a feature to promote roleplay. In other YZE-games have, the characters have a buddy, best friend and you sometimes write a sentence what you think of the person.
> The only other (English) game FL make use of PvP is Mutant: Elysium.



You need to really go reread a bunch. Or correct you definition of PVP from "Attacking each other" (as that is a grossly narrow view) to "Acting against each other."

Such as the section on relationships in TFTL (p 60) which notes that "None of the kids should be enemies, but it's fun to have tension in the group: love, envy, or mistrust."
MYZ p 22 doesn't specifically mention negative relationships.,but the sample on page 20, reationship to PC2 is definitely a hostile one, which will, if played up, result directly in PVP competition.

PVP is not axiomatically _violence_ towards each other. It can be harsh competition and/or interference in their actions. It's players A and B not acting for the same outcome and being able to use mechanics in so doing. EVERY game by FL I've seen (and that is most of the ones in English) has provisions for negative relationships; most of them have combat rules; those that do, it's quite easy to use them PVP. (If you want to see a game that makes PVP hard, try Talisman Adventures - since the mechanics are all player facing, PVP actions of any kind do not follow normal resolutions.)


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## Fenhorn (May 18, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> You need to really go reread a bunch. Or correct you definition of PVP from "Attacking each other" (as that is a grossly narrow view) to "Acting against each other."
> 
> Such as the section on relationships in TFTL (p 60) which notes that "None of the kids should be enemies, but it's fun to have tension in the group: love, envy, or mistrust."
> MYZ p 22 doesn't specifically mention negative relationships.,but the sample on page 20, reationship to PC2 is definitely a hostile one, which will, if played up, result directly in PVP competition.
> ...



I don't have to re-read anything thank you. I have read them all and played many of them. To have different views is one thing, that can cause a tension between the players and can create interesting scenes.
PvP (or what FL means with PvP) is something else. FL only have a PvP warning in two of their games, Alien RPG and Mutant: Elysium just because in those two games the players can actively work against other players from time to time and only in Alien RPG, this can lead to a direct confrontation.


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## MGibster (Jul 2, 2022)

The Kickstarter is over, and those of us who participate have access to a PDF of the game.  Has anyone read it yet?  I just started and the book looks pretty cool so far.


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## schneeland (Jul 2, 2022)

I started reading, but was frustrated by the small font size (an unfortunate trend in recent Free League books). I read comments about armor not being very useful and firearms being a bit too deadly, but for the aforementioned reason I didn't really check the respective sections myself.


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## MGibster (Jul 2, 2022)

schneeland said:


> I started reading, but was frustrated by the small font size (an unfortunate trend in recent Free League books). I read comments about armor not being very useful and firearms being a bit too deadly, but for the aforementioned reason I didn't really check the respective sections myself.



"The rules are designed to keep combat brief and brutal"  - pg. 217.  The amount of protection armor affords is rather anemic, and even the basic police armored undershirt has an armor rating of C and gives you a penalty to the Mobility and Stealth skills.  To resist damage, you'd roll 2d8, and for each 6 or higher on the die you'd get one success (an 8 counts as two successes).  The PK-D blaster does a base damage of 2, but the end result could be more damage depending on how well the shooter rolls.  Yeah, this is not a game where you can expect your characte to just shrug off multiple gunshot wounds even while wearing armor.


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## MGibster (Jul 3, 2022)

I never realized how ridiculous the PK-D Blaster that Deckard carried in the original movie was.  This is the standard issue sidearm for blade runners and is made up of a 5 shot revolver firing .44 special ammunition, a single shot bolt action that rifles a .222 rifle round, and a single shot sonic round.  I don't remember the revolver in the movie firing any sonic round and never noticed the little bolt action on the original prop.  I do remember Deckard took careful aim to put a shot in Zhora's back as she was some distance from him as he fled.  But didn't he fire two shots?  I'll have to watch the movie again.  

I went ahead and made a character and the process was fairly easy.  My only real complaint is that I had to track down what the starting equipment was for blade runners.  But it's just a PK-D Blaster, a flying car, a KIA (personal data assistant), and a badge.  Every character in the game is a blade runner, but there are several archetypes to choose from.  I rolled randomly to determine whether I was a replicant or human and got human.  Then I rolled randomly to figure out how many years on the force I had and got rookie.  You don't have to roll randomly, you get to choose, but I elected to.  The advantage of being a rookie is that you have more points to put into your attributes.  The more years you have the fewer points you have for attributes but the more points you have to put into skills.


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## Colgrevance (Jul 3, 2022)

MGibster said:


> The more years you have the fewer points you have for attributes but the more points you have to put into skills.



This is one of very few things I dislike in Year Zero games: Attributes are much more valuable than skills/talents, thus it just doesn't make much sense to make an older (or in this case, more experienced) character, except maybe for oneshot games. I really wish they'd changed this for Blade Runner.


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## Yora (Jul 3, 2022)

MGibster said:


> The Kickstarter is over, and those of us who participate have access to a PDF of the game.  Has anyone read it yet?  I just started and the book looks pretty cool so far.



They raised over a million just to pay for the printing for a game that was already produced? Can thay just pocket the remainder after paying the printer?


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## Crusadius (Jul 3, 2022)

Yora said:


> They raised over a million just to pay for the printing for a game that was already produced? Can thay just pocket the remainder after paying the printer?



Well, out of the remainder they need to pay the writers, editors, artists, administration, licencing fees for the Blade Runner intellectual property, taxes, insurance, office rent and other sundry expenses, and any other unexpected expenses.

I don't expect much change after that for everyone to buy their own lamborghini.


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## Yora (Jul 3, 2022)

But those are costs that already happened in the past, regardless of how much money they raised. And I doubt a bank gave them a 1.5 million loan just on the expectation that the kickstarter would make that much money.
It could very well just have made 400,000 and they still would have had to pay all those costs.


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## Fenhorn (Jul 3, 2022)

It is very costly to print boxes and books, especially these days. They need to do some sort of pre-order or kickstarter so they can see how many games to print. Having a kickstarter instead of pre-order gives them feedback that can be very useful (and they have changed things in the books thanks to the feedback, not only some erratas and typos).


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## aramis erak (Jul 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> The only thing I mentioned that was from the interview was the designer saying explicitly that they don't want to do the secret Replicant trope.



And yet, it's there, in the char gen rules.

Having been reading it, and having run Alien, Vaesen, and T2K... it's not truly compatible with any of them. Likewise, Alien and Vaesen aren't compatible with each other nor with T2K....
The core concepts are there, but each YZE game has an adapted core execution. 

For example:
⚀ on pushed rolls...
Alien: only matter on stress dice, don't do physical damage, 2 types of d6
Vaesen: any push, does a condition (which physical damage also does) 1 type of d6
MYZ: any push but only on tool and base (attribute) dice; Skill dice don't. 3 types of d6
T2K: any push, to correct hits track. need 2d6 of color A, 4d6 of color b, 2d8, 2d10, 2d12, the d6's are base and autofire
BR: any push, to correct track. Need 3d6. 3d8, 3d10, 3d12. No kind distinctions at all

Each has a skill list unique to itself.
First Aid/Medicine bounces between atts.

Modifier methods
Vaesen: adjust total pool
MYZ Adjust skill dice only
Alien: adjust base dice only
T2K: shift dice sizes
BR: double the number of smallest die, or remove the smallest die.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jul 3, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> And yet, it's there, in the char gen rules.




Yeah that was a surprise. Made me wonder if they ultimately stuck it in due to backlash (or to avoid it). Seems like it’s the same approach as playing a secret Synthetic in Alien: Play like a human until the reveal, then, switch to Replicant mechanics.


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## Morrus (Jul 3, 2022)

Yora said:


> They raised over a million just to pay for the printing for a game that was already produced? Can thay just pocket the remainder after paying the printer?



Well it doesn’t work quite like that. The more you raise, the more you have to print. Those million-dollars worth of people all have to get something.

Plus 10% in fees, probably 10% to the Bladerunner IP owners. It all goes fast.

Most companies do make a profit on a big Kickstarter but probably nowhere near the amount you’re imagining.



> But those are costs that already happened in the past, regardless of how much money they raised.




But you still have to account for them. You have to account for costs no matter when they happened. Well, if you want to stay in business you do.


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## schneeland (Jul 3, 2022)

Yora said:


> But those are costs that already happened in the past, regardless of how much money they raised. And I doubt a bank gave them a 1.5 million loan just on the expectation that the kickstarter would make that much money.



Well, most probably they paid it out of their own pocket/company bank account in the hope that the Kickstarter would raise enough to justify the expenses. I don't think Free League (or anyone else in the RPG industry except WotC) makes enough money to do such an investment without some sort of return.
Admittedly, they probably could have done a pre-order and decided for a Kickstarter for marketing purposes.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jul 3, 2022)

Yora said:


> They raised over a million just to pay for the printing for a game that was already produced? Can thay just pocket the remainder after paying the printer?




Do you really not get how publishing, or any sort of production works? Maybe if this were a strictly digital product you could wonder what they'll do with some of that money, but even then the profits would feed back into the time it took to pay lots of people to work on the game, and also to keep the company running. But this is primarily a print product, so how in the world could you see their pledge total as pure profit?


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## Morrus (Jul 3, 2022)

schneeland said:


> Well, most probably they paid it out of their own pocket/company bank account in the hope that the Kickstarter would raise enough to justify the expenses. I don't think Free League (or anyone else in the RPG industry except WotC) makes enough money to do such an investment without some sort of return.
> Admittedly, they probably could have done a pre-order and decided for a Kickstarter for marketing purposes.



That’s how we do it. Take the initial risk on ourselves and hope to recover those costs via Kickstarter in order to fulfill quickly. This year we’ve developed three hardcover books all of which will be coming to KS over the next year.


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## Yora (Jul 3, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Do you really not get how publishing, or any sort of production works? Maybe if this were a strictly digital product you could wonder what they'll do with some of that money, but even then the profits would feed back into the time it took to pay lots of people to work on the game, and also to keep the company running. But this is primarily a print product, so how in the world could you see their pledge total as pure profit?



Not the total. Just the excess from recovering the development costs they had to payed upfront and the costs for printing and distribution.
Assume they would have broken even with 500,000 raised. If they raise 1,500,000, the remaining 1,000,000 only need to be spend on printing and distribution for the exess backers, plus printing stock for later sales.

The point is that they couldn't have known in advance to raise over 1 million, so they can't have calculated to break even with more than 1 million.

Not that hard to comprehend.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jul 3, 2022)

Yora said:


> Not the total. Just the excess from recovering the development costs they had to payed upfront and the costs for printing and distribution.
> Assume they would have broken even with 500,000 raised. If they raise 1,500,000, the remaining 1,000,000 only need to be spend on printing and distribution for the exess backers, plus printing stock for later sales.
> 
> The point is that they couldn't have known in advance to raise over 1 million, so they can't have calculated to break even with more than 1 million.
> ...




But how much of a profit margin do you think there is in printing and shipping these books and starter sets? With each additional print pledge that's more they have to spend on production. So the more backers, the bigger the print run, which is all great, but to act like they're just raking in money or like most of that funding total isn't eaten up by production and operation costs is...I don't know. I literally don't know what to say here, so I guess I'll stop.


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## Yora (Jul 3, 2022)

The magic words are fixed costs and variable costs. A very simple and basic principle in the economy of production.
Some costs are the same no matter how many products you produce. Other costs are based on the units produced. If you produce 10 units or 10 million units, the fixed costs are the same.


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## MGibster (Jul 3, 2022)

Colgrevance said:


> This is one of very few things I dislike in Year Zero games: Attributes are much more valuable than skills/talents, thus it just doesn't make much sense to make an older (or in this case, more experienced) character, except maybe for oneshot games. I really wish they'd changed this for Blade Runner.



The older characters also get more specialties, promotion points, and chinyen (money), but I don't know if that makes up for having lower attributes.  



Yora said:


> They raised over a million just to pay for the printing for a game that was already produced? Can thay just pocket the remainder after paying the printer?



I don't typically concern myself with how the sausage is made.  Free League offered a product for a particular price point and I went ahead and made a purchase based on my own wants.  I'm sure they have a lot of expenses, but if they pocketed the remainder after paying the printer it wouldn't bother me one iota.  



Grendel_Khan said:


> Yeah that was a surprise. Made me wonder if they ultimately stuck it in due to backlash (or to avoid it). Seems like it’s the same approach as playing a secret Synthetic in Alien: Play like a human until the reveal, then, switch to Replicant mechanics.



Yeah, it reminded me of the secret snyth (so much better than Secret Santa) from _Alien_.  I won't be using it in any game I run.


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## Crusadius (Jul 4, 2022)

Yora said:


> The magic words are fixed costs and variable costs. A very simple and basic principle in the economy of production.
> Some costs are the same no matter how many products you produce. Other costs are based on the units produced. If you produce 10 units or 10 million units, the fixed costs are the same.



The best I can say about this "extra" money they now have is: great, now they have more operating capital that can be used to pay off debts, fund new products, fund cost of living wage increases, and stave off bankruptcy for another year.


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## aramis erak (Jul 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> The older characters also get more specialties, promotion points, and chinyen (money), but I don't know if that makes up for having lower attributes.



The more I see of YZE games, the more I see Traveller influences...
This is the classic aging paradigm of Traveller... as you age, you gain more skills but lose attributes. In Traveller, the balance point varies widely by edition and Ref (=GM), and one's luck (as Traveller aging is randomized to various degrees).

So, to compare it, it's easier math in all the YZE games with aging than in Traveller.

If one considers the difference per die, with the attribute being used for all three relevant skills, the attribute is 3× the overall value. Since the aging step is -1 attribute level for +2 skill levels, it's almost always a losing proposition for skills alone. But the additional specialty is about the same as a skill level, so I'd say it's almost equal. Why? many of them are advantage on a skill.
on to figuring the relative value of the dice
Let's see... calculating average value per die, unpushed.

skillPushedarrayd60.1670.2780, 0, 0, 0, 0, 11/6d80.3750.5360, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 13/8d100.60.8400, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1 , 1, 26/10d120.8331.1110, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1 , 1, 2, 2, 210/12 = 5/6
Attribute value is at least triple that of skill, as it applies to 3 skills, but this ignores the Health and Resilience expendables pools (ie, damage tracks). Given that the chinyen is roughly a one use auto-success...  maybe count that as a fraction of a die, sa, 1/10 of worst att+ worst skill?

d6 [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1].[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1],[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1]] =10/36=5/1=0.278
d8 [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1],[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1],[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1],[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1],[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1]]=36/64=18/32=9/16=0.536
d10 [[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0], 4×[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2], 4×[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1],[2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2]]= (24+40+20)/100=84/100=0.840
d12[[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 0],4×[0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2], 4x[1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1], 3×[2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2]]= 40+48+72=160/144
but that effect is fairly minor  in terms of change in relative value, tho ChinYen and Promotion Points are essentially single use autosuccesses at certain tasks, and so should be based upon a pushed roll's value.

Also, there are other aspects that are roleplay functions - reactions to the older character, the nature of contacts the GM will let your scrounge up, and character self-image/confidence/poise/dementia/despair/burnout that are best represented by experienced characters, as well, and the player's mindset for how the character is 

I'd say, generally, the trade off is in not favorable if you plan on using all 12 attribute linked skills evenly, but that's also unlikely, so losing the value of a skill outside your competence...  It's worth considering it. 

If there's a skill you don't plan to use under the attribute you'd not raise due to the lost point, then the value is about 2.5× the value of a skill of same rating... (allowing for either health or resilience losses), and if two, it's about 1.5. FInd the difference going down on the att, and the value of 2 skill upgrades that you'd not take as a younger character.
I've done much of the math for you.... but a more general conversion analysis is dependent upon a number of concept and playstyle issues making a handy table too narrowly construed.

My gut reaction is, "Yeah, it's about right."



MGibster said:


> Yeah, it reminded me of the secret snyth (so much better than Secret Santa) from _Alien_.  I won't be using it in any game I run.



The big difference is that in Alien, the player knows it. In BR, only the GM knows it.


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## MGibster (Jul 4, 2022)

aramis erak said:


> This is the classic aging paradigm of Traveller... as you age, you gain more skills but lose attributes. In Traveller, the balance point varies widely by edition and Ref (=GM), and one's luck (as Traveller aging is randomized to various degrees).



It does seem as though there's a steep drop in attributes at relatively young ages.  Assuming a blade runner starts their career at the age of 25, by the time they're 35 they only have 2 fewer attribute points and +4 skill points.  But maybe I'm analyzing this more than I should.  Which is odd, because I sure didn't use the power of math and analyze it like you did!  



aramis erak said:


> The big difference is that in Alien, the player knows it. In BR, only the GM knows it.



During the Kickstarter, I thought one of the designers said that they didn't plan on having replicants who didn't know they were replicants because Rachel was a special one-time-only case.  She wouldn't be all that special if you had a bunch of games with characters who were unknowingly replicants.


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## aramis erak (Jul 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> It does seem as though there's a steep drop in attributes at relatively young ages.  Assuming a blade runner starts their career at the age of 25, by the time they're 35 they only have 2 fewer attribute points and +4 skill points.  But maybe I'm analyzing this more than I should.  Which is odd, because I sure didn't use the power of math and analyze it like you did!



Had a bit of a manic episode last night... researching LAPD rank & Promotion. Age and rank both correlate...

Well, assuming current LAPDrequirements, Rookies are indeed going to be Police Officer I's - also known as "boots" - they've at least 21 yo if human, having needed to be 21 yo to attend the Academy... assuming knowing all the right things and people...

Start AgeMinimum
Years after joiningSpend X Years in this rankrank21 years of age0½Academy 21½½1½Police Officer I assigned to an FTO2323Police Officer IIStill "Probationary" but past the FTO stage2652Police Officer III &
 Police Officer III+1III+1 is a for special assignments...2874Sergeant I or Detective 1minimum; technically 26 deployments32111Lieutenant ILimited Field Work3312Captain IAlmost desk-bound

Note that Detective II and Sergeant II are rarely under a few years at the prior grade, but it's possible to test for Lt I while a Detective I.
So this means your "rookie" character is likely a PO I, Seasoned are PO II or PO III+1, maybe an actual Detective I, Veterans will be PO III+1 or any grade of detective, and the Sgt II, LT, and Captain are all "Old Timers" as are most Det II & III. Due to the special duty nature, 

If you instead count only years post their Field Training, "Rookies" are PO II, Seasoned are PO II, PO III+1, or Det I or Sgt I. Veteran becomes mostly Detective I & II, with a few III+1's and maybe Sgt I. , Old Timers are likely Det I, II or III, Maybe Sgt I. a better fit. 

The most readable of the sources:





						CAREER LADDERS | Join LAPD
					

There are two types of advancement within the Los Angeles Police Department: (1) promotion and (2) assignment to a higher pay grade. "Promotion" refers to an advance from one Civil Service class to another, such as from Police Officer to Detective or Sergeant. Promotion is always from an...




					www.joinlapd.com


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## Colgrevance (Jul 4, 2022)

Very nice analysis, aramis erak. But while I agree that there is a similar dilemma in Traveller, I think the situation in YZE games is quite different: firstly, because in Traveller, attribute deterioration onset is much "later" and can be mitigated by anagathics; secondly, because there is almost no (or at least very slow) progress for skill values in Traveller, whereas it is quite easy to raise skills (and talents) in the YZE games I know (Blade Runner, Coriolis, Forbidden Lands, Vaesen) while attributes stay fixed. I have yet to see a player that is into character optimization chose an older starting age in any of the YZE campaign games I have played. 

So, for a oneshot, I'd readily agree with you assessment. But for a longer campaign, where skill increases are a thing, I still think higher attributes are way better.


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## Yora (Jul 4, 2022)

MGibster said:


> During the Kickstarter, I thought one of the designers said that they didn't plan on having replicants who didn't know they were replicants because Rachel was a special one-time-only case.  She wouldn't be all that special if you had a bunch of games with characters who were unknowingly replicants.




Yeah, well... 

That's what the people in power tell Deckard.

However, the other cop leaves Deckard a message that he knows he's dreaming about random unicorns.


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