# Why the hate for anime?  (Y da hat 4 anime?)



## RangerWickett (Jun 3, 2004)

I see a lot of people here getting all moany and doomsaying about anime, as if Japanese culture was personally responsible for you having less fun in your life.  Is it just that lots of people here have hard-ons for Hanna-Barbera cartoons?  Or are they just angry that Pokemon made more money than Maigc for a while?

Really, I mean, I know art preferences vary, and heck, I tend to dislike amateur art (especially in game books), but anime is just a different style, which generally favors less photorealism than European-derived Western art.  Eastern art styles tend to be a little more flashy, a little more over the top, and for some reason there are a lot of people who just, it seems, hate that.

I can't understand it?  What's so horrible?


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## MrFilthyIke (Jun 3, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I can't understand it?  What's so horrible?




Me?  I like anime.  I *HATE* anime fans/freaks.
Same as gamers, there are cool ones, and then the unbathed/unsocialized ones.

It just seems the "anime freaks" are so starved for people to look at
them they overshadow the normal fans.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

I haven't figured it out either. The only thing I can come up with is that the style just doesn't work for the people that dislike anime. Maybe it is Pokemon and a few other "kiddie" anime shows. I can tell anyone that thinks all anime is like Pokemon that that is not the case. Neon Genesis Evengelion, for instance, has an extremely deep and original story line and the art is not kiddie at all. Grave of the Fireflies is another example, it is one of the few shows to ever make me tear up and look at war in a whole different perspective. Record of Lodoss War(here it is again  ) shows the D&D experience to a T...and I would recommed it being viewed by anyone that is an anime fan that is wanting to see what D&D is like.


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## Psion (Jun 3, 2004)

I like some Anime. I don't like others.

I find some anime infantile.
It's obvious to me that what is funny to some Anime writers is not funny to me.
Some anime is vulgar.
I dislike some anime conventions. The less realistic the portrayal is, the less I like the art. For example, one that I really hate is when yelling, the characters' mouths wrap around their head.
I dislike the snooty overplayed arrogant villain archetype. But I think Yu-Gi-Oh pushed me over the edge on this one. 

I like Lodoss War, Vampire Hunter D, Akira, and Princess Mononoke.
Ninja Scroll was merely okay.
I am trying out some Slayers right now, and I am ambivalent so far.
Robotech made me snooze. I am pretty cool on the big mecha genre as a whole.


If anyone out there, given my above preferences, would like to recommend some more, I am all ears. How's this new "rune soldier" or whatever it is?


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## roytheodd (Jun 3, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I see a lot of people here getting all moany and doomsaying about anime, as if Japanese culture was personally responsible for you having less fun in your life.  Is it just that lots of people here have hard-ons for Hanna-Barbera cartoons?  Or are they just angry that Pokemon made more money than Maigc for a while?
> 
> Really, I mean, I know art preferences vary, and heck, I tend to dislike amateur art (especially in game books), but anime is just a different style, which generally favors less photorealism than European-derived Western art.  Eastern art styles tend to be a little more flashy, a little more over the top, and for some reason there are a lot of people who just, it seems, hate that.
> 
> I can't understand it?  What's so horrible?





I HATE ANIME!!!! I really and truly hate the stuff. When I was in junior high Robotech was being broadcast for the first time in the US and all the guys in school thought it was soooo cool. I watched it twice and then was sick of it. I couldn't stand it.

I do not like the episodic format, the open-ended stories, the squeaky high voices, the stupid hair, the melodrama, the way tears are drawn, the shapes of the people, the way that they freeze frame yet the art twitches, all of the movement lines, the big scenes where the hero is shown in an action pose while the scenery moves, the melodrama, the undefined powers of characters, the humor, the sex, and the fact that it's the "in thing". Add all of this crud up and all the dislikes roll into hate.

I truly abhor the art form. I truly abhor that I woke up one day and Japanimation was all the rage. Yay, now we not only have our own crap pop culture but we've got Japan's as well. I truly rue anime.


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## RangerWickett (Jun 3, 2004)

roytheodd said:
			
		

> I HATE ANIME!!!! I really and truly hate the stuff. When I was in junior high Robotech was being broadcast for the first time in the US and all the guys in school thought it was soooo cool. I watched it twice and then was sick of it. I couldn't stand it.
> 
> I do not like the episodic format, the open-ended stories, the squeaky high voices, the stupid hair, the melodrama, the way tears are drawn, the shapes of the people, the way that they freeze frame yet the art twitches, all of the movement lines, the big scenes where the hero is shown in an action pose while the scenery moves, the melodrama, the undefined powers of characters, the humor, the sex, and the fact that it's the "in thing". Add all of this crud up and all the dislikes roll into hate.
> 
> I truly abhor the art form. I truly abhor that I woke up one day and Japanimation was all the rage. Yay, now we not only have our own crap pop culture but we've got Japan's as well. I truly rue anime.




Y'know, I don't like most R&B or country music, and I'm not too keen on soap operas.  But I don't hate them.  That's all I'm asking.  Why 'hate'?  Why not just say, "Oh, I don't like it"?


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## DragonLancer (Jun 3, 2004)

If you are talking about Anime cartoons then I don't really like them. I find them over the top in the action sense and for whatever reason it turns me off completely.

I'm not keen on Anime style artwork either, such has begun to appear in a few D&D products. In my mind it works for games based on it such as Exalted (WW) but it isn't appropriate to the more medieval base that is D&D.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 3, 2004)

Well, I'm not as strident as Roy about it, but by-and-large I'm not wild about Anime myself (and yes yes; I know it's a medium, not a style).

But you know what I'm talking about, so spare me the semantics.

I'm not wild about most of the facets of it that Psion laid out.

When it comes to _any_ character-driven entertainment I am a plot junkie, and a lot (lot!) of the time in my viewing experience the plot just _does not track_ in anime.

It's quite a bit like my distaste for Image Comics back in the day--all of the effort was put into a flashy, big-titted, unrealistic art, with plot almost being a secondary concern (when it was any kind of concern at all).

I liked G-Force when I was a kid. I was pretty fond of Robotech...but all things being equal _Fist of the North Star_ just did.not.make.sense.

and don't get me started about my opinions on "which level of Hell is low enough" for the creators of _Legend of the Overfiend_. 

"Demons raping children" is not a form of entertianemnt I condone.


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I see a lot of people here getting all moany and doomsaying about anime, as if Japanese culture was personally responsible for you having less fun in your life.  Is it just that lots of people here have hard-ons for Hanna-Barbera cartoons?  Or are they just angry that Pokemon made more money than Maigc for a while?
> 
> Really, I mean, I know art preferences vary, and heck, I tend to dislike amateur art (especially in game books), but anime is just a different style, which generally favors less photorealism than European-derived Western art.  Eastern art styles tend to be a little more flashy, a little more over the top, and for some reason there are a lot of people who just, it seems, hate that.
> 
> I can't understand it?  What's so horrible?



Great start to an open and throught-provoking debate, by insulting folks who don't like anime by saying they don't like Japanese culture, they have hard-ons for Hanna Barbera and are bitter about Pokemon outselling Magic.  :rolleyes, please come back:

Yeah, I'm sure you'll get a great discussion outta that.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

roytheodd said:
			
		

> I HATE ANIME!!!! I really and truly hate the stuff. When I was in junior high Robotech was being broadcast for the first time in the US and all the guys in school thought it was soooo cool. I watched it twice and then was sick of it. I couldn't stand it.




Can't say I blame ya on this. Robotech is a bastardized version of Macross with some really weird elements that was never in Macross thrown in. Protoculture...what a weird thing.



> I do not like the episodic format, the open-ended stories



Describes practically every show in existense. Actually though this does not describe tons of anime...only the ones made for the younger crowd. Most tell a self contained story and then either end or go to a different story.



> and the fact that it's the "in thing".



Not trying to be mean here...and I'm going to go on a bit of a rant, but I cannot hardly stand to see someone say they dislike(or hate) something because "everyone" likes it. Like it or not on your own not whether everyone likes or dislikes it. 


Oh and Psion some anime that I'd recommend is: Vampire Hunter D(and Bloodlust the sequel), Grave of the Fireflies, Macross Plus, Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, and Harlock Saga


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> (and yes yes; I know it's a medium, not a style).



Not trying to argue this, because I'm not entirely sure you're saying it, but that's plain preposterous.  Cartoons are the medium, anime is a style of cartoon.  Disney movies are another style, classic Saturday morning cartoons are another style, etc.  It's absolutely _not_ a medium, and absolutely _is_ a style, and that's why folks don't like it.  Because if it was simply a medium, it would be like saying "I don't like books, I only like movies."  Sure, there are indeed people who say this, but that's not the type of comparison folks who don't like anime are making, I don't think.  Certainly not in my case.


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## Azure Trance (Jun 3, 2004)

Hate it? Tentacle porn got me into the damn thing.


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## Morrus (Jun 3, 2004)

I don't think I'd go so far as to say that I hate it, but it certainly holds no interest for me at all.  I couldn't pin down why, but I'd say that the animation style generally puts me off.  Plus those lines they draw to show someone moving fast or jumping, when they could just show the background moving by fast.

I think the biggest problem is that I find the action sequences so confusing - I can't follow what's going on.  And when I do figure out what's happening, it's usually too over-the-top for my tastes.

But then, I like superhero comic books and movies, both of which are over-the-top, so I guess I can't point at that without being a tad hypocritical.  I can't say why I don;t like it - it just doesn't work for me.  

My flatmate is very into anime, and has an enormous collection of anime DVDs.  He's tried showing me various things at different times, and none of them have ever caught my interest.  But then, he doesn't like Smallville, and I do - guess tastes just vary, and there's no accounting for them!


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Not trying to argue this, because I'm not entirely sure you're saying it, but that's plain preposterous.  Cartoons are the medium, anime is a style of cartoon.  Disney movies are another style, classic Saturday morning cartoons are another style, etc.  It's absolutely _not_ a medium, and absolutely _is_ a style, and that's why folks don't like it.  Because if it was simply a medium, it would be like saying "I don't like books, I only like movies."  Sure, there are indeed people who say this, but that's not the type of comparison folks who don't like anime are making, I don't think.  Certainly not in my case.




I hear you Mr. Dyal. It's just every time an anime thread comes up, some apologist makes it his job to say something akin to "_it's a medium! saying you don't like anime is like saying you don't like television because some sitcoms are bad. Certainly ther is bad anime, but there is a length and breadth to the medium that blah blah blah etc._..."

Then I am (or in this case, you are) forced to post something akin to what you posted above.

See how easy it was for you and I just to get it all out of the way?  

In short. It's cartoons. 

Mostly--in my experience--it's _not very good_ cartoons.


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## Herpes Cineplex (Jun 3, 2004)

You know, I don't actually have an opinion about "anime."

I have opinions about specific _shows_, the same as I would for any genre of television.  For example, Cowboy Bebop is extremely well done, while Trigun is a big pile of ass.  

However, I'll agree with this:


			
				MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> I *HATE* anime fans/freaks.




...because honestly, the hit/miss ratio of anime is as bad or worse than conventional television.  Some of the things I've had people recommend to me have just been horrible, to the point where I cannot honestly imagine why anyone would be willing to sit and watch it, let alone act like it's a great show.  And the worst of the recommendations always comes from the obsessive fans, who seem to think that anything animated out of Japan is just going to be the coolest thing ever and the only topic worth discussing and "OMG you've never seen this? ^__^ kekekeke" until you want to shove them in a lake.

They're just TV shows, folks, not a religion.  Most of them are crap.  The few that are really good should be watched, the rest should be ignored, same as anything else on TV.

--
poor pacing, plots that would shame a soap opera, and tentacle rape <> good show
ryan


\/\/\/\/ Yeah, but I don't mean "genre" as a defense for bad shows.  I'll say it again: _MOST TV SHOWS SUCK._  Doesn't matter if they're live-action or animated, doesn't matter if they're animated by a guy in Tokyo or a guy in Fresno.  The 20:1 ratio of crap to good TV is maintained across all stylistic and national boundaries.

The difference is that you get some clowns who think "anime" is different enough or special enough that it deserves some kind of unique label.  And it doesn't deserve any such thing.  It's not different, and it's not special.  It's just a bunch of TV shows, and only a handful of them are actually something you would care to watch.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 3, 2004)

Herpes Cineplex said:
			
		

> You know, I don't actually have an opinion about "anime."
> 
> I have opinions about specific _shows_, the same as I would for any genre of television...




That was quick


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## MDSnowman (Jun 3, 2004)

Now I consider myself a rather large anime fan, and I dislike incoherent ramblings about how horrible anime is.

First off you'll find that a lot of anime fans, myself included, always enjoyed the artform. I have been collecting anime since 1996... far before it was getting wide spread acceptance anywhere outside Japan. Finding and buying things I wanted was nearly impossible, because the market simply wasn't there.

Now with the populaity of anime series I _personally_ dislike, Yu-gi-oh, and Pokemon chief among them, finding things _I_ want, like the Record of Lodoss War TV series, or Berserk Manga, suddenly becomes a much more managable task.

I think that anime often gets a bad rap because people can't seem to wrap their minds around a form of media that address all other genre's of television. You'll find hardboiled action dramas, romantic comedies, melodrama, children's shows, slap stick comedy, and yes even porn. I don't like every aspect of anime, but I know where my tastes lie and I buy within the genres that appeal to me... you'll not find any episodes of Dragonball Z or Pokemon gracing my video collection.

With that in mind making the blanket statement that you _hate anime_ comes across as ignorant. There's more to it than the stuff you can see on the WB or Reruns of Dragonball Z. If you were to open your mind just a little bit and scratch past the surface I'm sure you'd find something you would like, and I doubt you would even have to investigate obscure series to find something you like.

 :\ Then again I'm not defending people who cosplay, they are people who need a little help.


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## jgbrowning (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> If anyone out there, given my above preferences, would like to recommend some more, I am all ears. How's this new "rune soldier" or whatever it is?




Try Ghost in the Shell. It's a good movie. Personally, I don't like anime for many of the same reasons.

joe b.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 3, 2004)

MDSnowman said:
			
		

> ..I think that anime often gets a bad rap because people can't seem to wrap their minds around a form of media that address all other genre's of television. You'll find hardboiled action dramas, romantic comedies, melodrama, children's shows, slap stick comedy, and yes even porn. I don't like every aspect of anime, but I know where my tastes lie and I buy within the genres that appeal to me... you'll not find any episodes of Dragonball Z or Pokemon gracing my video collection.
> 
> With that in mind making the blanket statement that you _hate anime_ comes across as ignorant. There's more to it than the stuff you can see on the WB or Reruns of Dragonball Z. If you were to open your mind just a little bit and scratch past the surface I'm sure you'd find something you would like, and I doubt you would even have to investigate obscure series to find something you like...




Witness, Joshua Dyal. Witness.


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## MDSnowman (Jun 3, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Witness, Joshua Dyal. Witness.




Must...resist...urge.... to... flame.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> It's absolutely _not_ a medium, and absolutely _is_ a style, and that's why folks don't like it




It is neither. It is not a medium because there is anime TV shows, movies, and even OAVs(a small series of videos or DVDs)..as well as manga(comic book) forms. Nor is it a style since there is a wide variety of styles within the heading of "anime". "Anime" is a general term for animation that comes from japan. 

Also, it is not cartoon. Calling anime cartoons is like trying to say Heavy Metal is a cartoon. Cartoons signify a children's series. 

Animation is the medium, anime is a general term for a certain grouping of animation, and then there are many styles.


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## Halivar (Jun 3, 2004)

Some anime is good, just like some American TV and movies are good.

_Escaflowne_ (just talking about the movie, mind you) is bad; just like _Solar Babies_ is bad (go rent and see).

 Now, of the two, which is worse?  I leave that as an exercise to the reader. Now, just because _Solarbabies_ incurs stark, raving madness and a desire for self-mutilation onto all who watch it, does that mean all American sci-fi is bad? Hardly not.

 Just give anime the same fair shake.

 Unless you dislike a constant barrage of hand-drawn, half-naked teenage girls. Yeah, that pretty well takes anime off your menu.

 Now come to think of it, maybe we _should_ ban the stuff...


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## RangerWickett (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Great start to an open and throught-provoking debate, by insulting folks who don't like anime by saying they don't like Japanese culture, they have hard-ons for Hanna Barbera and are bitter about Pokemon outselling Magic.  :rolleyes, please come back:
> 
> Yeah, I'm sure you'll get a great discussion outta that.




I'm sorry.  I was being silly.  I'm not insulting people who _dislike_ anime; I'm poking fun at the people who say they 'hate' it.  I can understand people who are frustrated that D&D art is turning more anime-ish; something they like is changing.  What I don't get is people getting violently angry that artists have different styles.  Honestly,  I think it's very important to make fun of people getting so up in arms about such a trivial thing.  Y'know, like what South Park does.

Oh, crap.  I'm gonna get this thread closed, aren't I?

Well, in an attempt to not be personally insulting, I'll say that I know that you cannot convince someone who hates an art style that they're wrong.  But I don't like it when my fellow gamers look down on a particular type of game or book because it's not something they like.  I don't like people pretending that one form of having fun is better or worse than another.

I admit, I am a little frustrated that people don't like anime-esque art.  I think it pushes toward looking more cool than what was traditionally associated with old-school D&D, and the anime-esque art that does show up in D&D is not the over-the-top mouths as big as your head, sweatdrop stuff.  It's stuff like this:


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## Wombat (Jun 3, 2004)

Let me list all the anime I have seen so I have that on the table:

Akira, Fist of the North Star, Vampire Hunter D, Neighborhood Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service, LA Blue Girl (first 10 minutes only -- turned it off), Princess Mononoke, Project A-Ko

That's the lot, unless I missed something minor.  Never saw Pokemon or any of the others.

What do I dislike? (Note: not hate)  I generally dislike the Big Eyes, Small Mouth look.  I dislike oversized weapons.  I got lost in the plots of Akira, Fist of the North Star, and Project A-Ko.  I prefer linear plots, realistic motion (of these, fantastically displayed in Princess Mononoke), and a more realistic palatte (again, done well in Princess Mononoke).  I loath (yes, I _do _ say that) representations of little girls being raped by tentacled creatures; I also realize that is only a minor subset of anime, the hentai.  Such "art" as hentai I find morally repugnant.  Most other forms, however, I merely find outside my usual tastes, both as a form of art and as a style of story.  I don't think this is entirely a Western versus Japanese matter, as I have read several of Kawabata's novels and _Genji Monogatari _ and enjoyed them.

What about other animation?  Well, I like Rocky & Bullwinkle, but obviously for the actual animation.  I like the Pixar material -- the plots are great, the characters move in a very believable manner, and you have to love the voices.  I never was a fan of Hanna-Barbera, other than briefly as a child.  So I can say that animation in general is not quite my cuppa.

My taste in art falls firmly into the realistic school.  I love the Flemish Renaissance artists -- Bruegel,  the van Eycks, Bosch, Vermeer; going north, I love Durer and Holbein.  I love Magritte who, though he creates odd settings, is highly painterly.  I also have a deep love for M.C. Escher.

So there we go.  You may decide that I have limited tastes, and I can respect that, but there is no need for me to like all styles of art.


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## Psion (Jun 3, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> Oh and Psion some anime that I'd recommend is: Vampire Hunter D(and Bloodlust the sequel), Grave of the Fireflies, Macross Plus, Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, and Harlock Saga




You'll recommend Vampire Hunter D and Princess Mononoke based on my liking Vampire Hunter D and Princess Mononoke? That's mighty insightful of you.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Halivar said:
			
		

> Now come to think of it, maybe we _should_ ban the stuff...




Oh goodness don't talk like that....that could lead to a group against anime called BAA(Bothered about Anime). It is bad enough that the majority is cut to ribbons in the editing to make it "fit" to be one TV. Yep even childish Pokemon wasn't kiddy enough for american TV.

Which to talk on that a moment... Why does it have to be edited? I mean, look at Japan. Kids there watch the shows and aren't as violent and rude as kids here. Then shows are edited and cut so it can be showed to an age demographic younger than shown in Japan..grrr


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## MDSnowman (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> You'll recommend Vampire Hunter D and Princess Mononoke based on my liking Vampire Hunter D and Princess Mononoke? That's mighty insightful of you.




Not his fault you happen to have good tastes.


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## Epametheus (Jun 3, 2004)

Heh.  I don't even watch American television anymore; if I'm watching something, it's almost certainly subtitled anime that I have downloaded.  Hell, I'm waiting on a couple episodes of Full Metal Alchemist right now.

Part of the "hate" is a real age gap I can see -- I can't think of anyone I know who's 30 or older that actually likes anime; everyone I know that likes it distinctly falls below that line, even if only by a few years.  Much as many from the younger generation loathe hair metal and other music from the 80's, many from the older generation look at what the younger generation is into and wonder what the hell the kids are thinking.

Dragon Ball Z seems to be considered to be a the representative of anime (Cartoon Network advertising it as the greatest show on Earth didn't help).  DBZ is a _terrible_ show, and a terrible representative of anime, especially of the newer stuff.  Cowboy Bebop and Trigun make much better representatives than the bulk of what Cartoon Network has run.

Saikano and The 12 Kingdoms are even better representatives, but there's no way in hell Cartoon Network would ever run those.

Much of the things I've seen people complain about in this thread tend to belong to the older, low-budget shows.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> You'll recommend Vampire Hunter D and Princess Mononoke based on my liking Vampire Hunter D and Princess Mononoke? That's mighty insightful of you.




 esh...well at least I know you'd like my recommendation if you hadn't 

Then, I'll add Tenchi Muyo(the original OAV, not the series or Tenchi in Tokyo) and Dominion Tank Police.


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## Saeviomagy (Jun 3, 2004)

Various said:
			
		

> ...I don't think I'd go so far as to say that I hate it, but it certainly holds no interest for me at all.  I couldn't pin down why, but I'd say that the animation style generally puts me off.  Plus those lines they draw to show someone moving fast or jumping, when they could just show the background moving by fast...
> 
> ...When I was in junior high Robotech was being broadcast for the first time in the US and all the guys in school thought it was soooo cool. I watched it twice and then was sick of it...
> 
> ...Akira, Fist of the North Star, Vampire Hunter D, Neighborhood Totoro, Kiki's Delivery Service, LA Blue Girl (first 10 minutes only -- turned it off), Princess Mononoke, Project A-Ko...




What I'm seeing here is a lot of people seeing a very restricted quantity of anime and declaring the entire thing off limits. Which, given the stuff that tends to be commercially imported is probably fair enough (except for the guy who hates the whole lot based on how he hated robotech - I hated robotech too. Yes, I really mean hated. I was a kid, and it was taking up half my morning cartoon slot. It was slow, boring, heavily edited, badly voiced, badly written etc, etc. I now merely enjoy watching it to make jokes about how bad it is. My suggestion: go see something else, anything else...).


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## MDSnowman (Jun 3, 2004)

What I found really entertaining was *Read or Die*. Only three episodes and I loved every second of it.


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## Epametheus (Jun 3, 2004)

There's actually a 26 ep TV series of that, too.  Starts with a different cast (one of whom is a major character in the manga) and converges with the OVA storyline about halfway through.


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## Psion (Jun 3, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> Then, I'll add Tenchi Muyo(the original OAV, not the series or Tenchi in Tokyo) and Dominion Tank Police.




Now I've seen ads about Tenchi Muyo. The living ship thing looked cool, but there was some squad of girls swooning over him thing that gave me this (ungood) Sailor Moon vibe.

I also spied a Final Fantasy anime at Target, but I was too afraid to pick it up. Does it do my beloved game series justice? Or are my fears founded?


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## MDSnowman (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Now I've seen ads about Tenchi Muyo. The living ship thing looked cool, but there was some squad of girls swooning over him thing that gave me this (ungood) Sailor Moon vibe.




Well the fact they swoon over him and he doesn't seem interested in any of them opens the door for Hijinks.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Now I've seen ads about Tenchi Muyo. The living ship thing looked cool, but there was some squad of girls swooning over him thing that gave me this (ungood) Sailor Moon vibe.




You might not like it then. It isn't like Sailor Moon(which is a fav of mine), it is just a light-hearted comedy with some great action.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 3, 2004)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> Part of the "hate" is a real age gap I can see -- I can't think of anyone I know who's 30 or older that actually likes anime; everyone I know that likes it distinctly falls below that line, even if only by a few years.




I'm 32 years old and I like a good chunk of anime just fine.  It's just like anything else out there--90% is either complete fluff or total junk, and the other 10% is either okay or even really good.  I work for a major video distributor and I'm considered the anime 'specialist' there, which definitely has its perks.  I get screeners and samples from nearly all of the anime studios here in the States so I get to see a sizable portion of the stuff.  I certainly wouldn't consider myself an anime super-fan, or an 'otaku,' but I do enjoy quite a bit of anime.


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## HellHound (Jun 3, 2004)

I dislike a majority of it. But there is some that I simply LOVE.

I'm a cyberpunk junky, so the titles shouldn't come as much of a surprise -

my fave: Ghost in the Shell.

Honestly, whenever I hear people complaining about anime, I watch it again, and decide that people are too busy placing labels on the whole style instead of individual works within it. 

"episodic format" - nope
"open-ended stories" - somewhat, as there is definitely more to the story than what is in the movie
"the squeaky high voices" - nope
"the stupid hair" - not that I noticed
"the melodrama" - well, it is about finding the line between humanity and machine within ones self, so ok.
"the way tears are drawn" - ??
"the shapes of the people" - right...
"the way that they freeze frame yet the art twitches" - mmm... don't think so
"all of the movement lines" - have to watch it again, but I don't think this is much of an offender
"the big scenes where the hero is shown in an action pose while the scenery moves" - nope
"the melodrama" - again?
"the undefined powers of characters" - no, they have pretty defined limits
"the humor" - not a lot in this one
"the sex" - okay, nude full conversion cyborg in the opening scenes
"and the fact that it's the "in thing"." - guilty


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## Impeesa (Jun 3, 2004)

I'd just like to say that some of the fence-sitters here need to watch Macross Plus, Cowboy Bebop, and maybe Grave of the Fireflies. Thinking that crappy tentacle-rape hentai you saw once represents the artistic boundaries of anime is like saying that cheap porn you rented last week speaks for all North American cinema. 

--Impeesa--


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## Pants (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Now I've seen ads about Tenchi Muyo. The living ship thing looked cool, but there was some squad of girls swooning over him thing that gave me this (ungood) Sailor Moon vibe.



Now your mentioning an entire genre of anime right there, one that I find annoying and way overdone in anything more than very small doses.  But, hey that's taste for you.

I like anime.  I started to like it when I was getting sick of the kiddy nature of american animation.  I especially never liked half of the squiggly drawn shows on Nickelodeon that were all the rage when I got into Anime.  I also disliked the constant barrage of gross out crap that was infecting animation, along with the extremely episodic quality of it all.  There were some good American shows that I liked, such as _Batman_, _Exo-Squad_, _Spiderman_, and _X-Men_ to name a few, but i was always bothered by how everyone seemed to skirt the more mature issues in the shows.  When a helicopter crashed, everyone managed to get out in time, tanks crashing would only knock the pilots out and that sort of crap.

Then I watched anime, starting with DBZ.  Yes, DBZ.  I started watching in the later Freeza episodes, so death was being thrown around rather casually.  The fighting was over-the-top and nothing like I had ever seen before.  Basically, I began to watch anime because it was more mature.  Not all of it mind you, but the stuff I did watch, didn't skirt around some issues like American shows did.

I really enjoy Berserk, Hellsing, Wolf's Rain, Cowboy Bebop, Trigun, and Inu Yasha.  Berserk is about as far from typical anime as you can get and Cowboy Bebop is probably about as western as you're going to get.

Now, I don't mind people who 'hate' anime, I don't like people who use 'anime' as a catch-all term for everything they do hate.  Example:
"I hate the anime art in 3rd edition!"

1st of all, this person has two things going wrong for him.  He's ignorant and he's an idiot, plus he probably has no clue about what anime art actually is.  Not all anime is spikey-goth-dungeon/spike/leather fetish stuff that everyone seems to associate with 3rd edition (I don't, but it's another handy catch-all term), thus the comment is foolish.  Ignorance annoys me, even when its so blatant.  I don't really mind if your 'hate of 3rd edition art knows no limit,' but don't try to justify it by saying its anime.  It's not.  Some of it _is_ inspired by anime, just like some 1st edition stuff looked like superhero comic book drawings (Jeff Dee, I'm looking at you), but I don't here anyone complaining about a superhero muscle fetish of 1st edition, mainly because such a claim is ignorant and foolish.

That is all.
Thank you.


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## Nuclear Platypus (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I like Lodoss War, Vampire Hunter D, Akira, and Princess Mononoke.
> Ninja Scroll was merely okay.
> I am trying out some Slayers right now, and I am ambivalent so far.
> Robotech made me snooze. I am pretty cool on the big mecha genre as a whole.
> ...




I recommend 'The Castle of Cagliostro', supposedly one of Steven Spielberg's fave movies, and was done by Hayao Miyazaki, the same fellow who did Princess Mononoke among others. It's rather over the top in an Indiana Jone-ish sort of way and a few of his tv episodes and movies have been released as well (as Lupin III probably). 

There's also 'Ushio and Tora' about a demon hunting kid (Ushio) with a magic spear (the Beast Spear) and his 'pet' demon who looks like tiger (Tora) but unfortunately there's only 5 or 6 episodes.

Samurai Jack. I especially recommend the episodes with the Scotsman.   

Ruroni Kenshin, Yuyu Hakusho and Inuyasha might be worth looking into if a bit slow in spots. Cowboy Bebop is quite good as well. I was rather fond of Bubblegum Crisis (the original not the recent remake) but it might be a case of 'the older I get, the better it was' syndrome.


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## Stone Dog (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I also spied a Final Fantasy anime at Target, but I was too afraid to pick it up. Does it do my beloved game series justice? Or are my fears founded?



If you mean having to sit through long summoning sequences that are only interesting the first time you see it, then it meshes perfectly with the game.    Seriously though the FF fans I know are into it, but I just had a hard time watching the thing.  The animation is an odd sort of cell styling and the story really creeps along.  Borrow or rent it if you can first, just remember that it usually takes a few episodes to really get going in most series.



Some one above refered to Rune Soldier Louie.  It is a riot.  It is rather like a light hearted version of Lodoss War with a few more D&D jokes slipped in (the party is a fighter, thief, cleric and wizard for instance and "adventuring" is going into ruins to find treasure).


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

MDSnowman said:
			
		

> Now I consider myself a rather large anime fan, and I dislike incoherent ramblings about how horrible anime is.



Much as I dislike incoherent ramblings about how wonderful and enlightened it is.


			
				MDSnowman said:
			
		

> First off you'll find that a lot of anime fans, myself included, always enjoyed the artform. I have been collecting anime since 1996... far before it was getting wide spread acceptance anywhere outside Japan. Finding and buying things I wanted was nearly impossible, because the market simply wasn't there.



Non sequitar.  Beside the point.


			
				MDSnowman said:
			
		

> Now with the populaity of anime series I _personally_ dislike, Yu-gi-oh, and Pokemon chief among them, finding things _I_ want, like the Record of Lodoss War TV series, or Berserk Manga, suddenly becomes a much more managable task.



See, I actually don't mind Pokemon.  Used to watch it with my kids, before they grew out of them.  At about age 5 or so.  It was reasonably entertaining for a kids show, though.


			
				MDSnowman said:
			
		

> I think that anime often gets a bad rap because people can't seem to wrap their minds around a form of media that address all other genre's of television. You'll find hardboiled action dramas, romantic comedies, melodrama, children's shows, slap stick comedy, and yes even porn. I don't like every aspect of anime, but I know where my tastes lie and I buy within the genres that appeal to me... you'll not find any episodes of Dragonball Z or Pokemon gracing my video collection.



See, that's just plain ludicrous.  First of all, _television_ is the media, anime is a visual and storytelling style that encompasses many genres.  But saying that anime non-fans can't get their heads around anime because it addresses all genres of television is just plain wrong.  That's like saying we can't get our heads around television because it has so many genres.  It's a completely ludicrous position to take, and that's why I don't like ill-concieved anime fans that show up and pretend like anime's something really special when all it is is a style of animation and storytelling.  Because anime is just a style, I find it perfectly acceptable to say "I don't like that style, therefore I don't really like anime" without some half-assed excuses about "I just can't get my head around anime, because it's just so rich and expansive and special, like an episode of Blossom."  :rolleyes, damn I've missed you today:


			
				MDSnowman said:
			
		

> With that in mind making the blanket statement that you _hate anime_ comes across as ignorant. There's more to it than the stuff you can see on the WB or Reruns of Dragonball Z. If you were to open your mind just a little bit and scratch past the surface I'm sure you'd find something you would like, and I doubt you would even have to investigate obscure series to find something you like.



Save it, pal.  I've really tried to like anime.  I know a lot of people that like a lot of other things that I do that swear by it, so I've watched a lot of the highly recommended ones.  The best I can say for them is that the best of the genre is mediocre -- and by far that is the exception.  The rest of what I've seen is so much worse.  It doesn't do to paint with an insulting brush and assume that anime is _so frikkin cool_ that the only way people can not like it is because they are ignorant.  :rolleyes again:


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> It is neither. It is not a medium because there is anime TV shows, movies, and even OAVs(a small series of videos or DVDs)..as well as manga(comic book) forms. Nor is it a style since there is a wide variety of styles within the heading of "anime". "Anime" is a general term for animation that comes from japan.
> 
> Also, it is not cartoon. Calling anime cartoons is like trying to say Heavy Metal is a cartoon. Cartoons signify a children's series.
> 
> Animation is the medium, anime is a general term for a certain grouping of animation, and then there are many styles.



You've really got your labels mixed up.  Cartoon is an animated video medium.  Anime is a cartoon.  Manga is not anima, manga is manga.  Which is also not a medium, as it's a style of comic book.


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

HellHound said:
			
		

> I dislike a majority of it. But there is some that I simply LOVE.
> 
> I'm a cyberpunk junky, so the titles shouldn't come as much of a surprise -
> 
> ...



I don't like anime in general, and Ghost in the Shell is one I've seen.  It's not too bad, but it's not a Holy Grail of cyberpunk either; the pacing and storyline actually tend to drag it down at times.  (Although what the heck is the Holy Grail of cyberpunk now that I mention it?  Last time I watched Bladerunner I thought it was horrible even though I had great memories of it from earlier.)

On the comedy side, I'd say Ranma 1/2 is probably the closest thing to an anime that I can recommend.  It's actually fairly well done and reasonably funny.

Honestly, I think a lot of the problems I have with anime are related to the fact that I'm not Japanese, and I simply don't "get it."  There are a lot of subtle cultural references in most of what I've seen in terms of the way plots evolve, the ideas explored, etc.  I'm not saying that it goes over my head, although I'm sure a fair amount does, but it also doesn't interest me as much as something that I can relate to more easily.

And a lot of the raving anime fans I know are frankly Japanophiles of the worst sort -- the kinds of kids that fervently wish they _were_ Japanese.  They swallow up everything Japanese just because it is Japanese.  I don't get that either.  Japan seems like a nice enough place, and I have it on pretty good authority that being nerdy in Japan (i.e., having hobbies like most of us do) is seen in a better light there than here in some ways, but I don't see Japan as the Mecca of cultural expression in the world either.  It's a culture like any other, with things I agree with and things I don't.  Same as my native culture, except that at least I'm more at home there.


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## MDSnowman (Jun 3, 2004)

You know Dyal for someone who hates anime so much you'd think that you'd simply wash your hands of it an go about your life and not spend precious time whining about how everyone who likes it is wrong.

You don't hear me whining about NASCAR


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

If you think I "hate anime so much" you obviously haven't read what I posted.  Another reason to roll my eyes at anime fans who jump at a chance to rave about it, regardless of context.

Also, I don't go out of my way to rant about anime, but the whole purpose of this thread is to specifically ask why folks don't like it.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 3, 2004)

Nuclear Platypus said:
			
		

> I recommend 'The Castle of Cagliostro'
> 
> Samurai Jack. I especially recommend the episodes with the Scotsman.




I love both of these.  _Castle of Cagliostro _ is probably my favorite anime.


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## Halivar (Jun 3, 2004)

Impeesa said:
			
		

> Thinking that crappy tentacle-rape hentai you saw once represents the artistic boundaries of anime is like saying that cheap porn you rented last week speaks for all North American cinema.



 Somebody buy this man a drink! Impeesa, I give you a (+5, Insightful) in my heart.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jun 3, 2004)

The worst thing about Anime in general is the Fans themselves....

And many would agree that anime isn't that bad, but there's quite a major problem with the most hardcore anime fans, the otaku in general.  They're among the worst types of geeks ever.  They're horribly annoying, painful to be around, and completely socially inept.


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## Dragonblade (Jun 3, 2004)

Having lived in Japan and being married to a Japanese woman, I can perhaps bring a little perspective.

Animation in general is more accepted as a form of entertainment for both kids and adults in Japan. Whereas in America, animation is pretty much considered kids fare.

However, I would still say that 65% of Japanese culture considers anime fans just as nerdy and socially outcast as probably 85% of Americans do.

That being said, you can't really lump all anime together. Sure, those who don't like it and aren't too familiar with it can do that, but anime is pretty diverse as a form of entertainment.

There is anime for children (Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc.), there is anime for families ala Disney (Kiki's Delivery Service, My neighbor Totoro), there is porn anime, there is over-the-top insane super-power wielding anime (Dragonball Z, Fist of the North Star), cyberpunk (Ghost in the Shell, Akira), and so on.

I'm not a big anime fan, but some of it is rather good, IMO. Anything by Miyazaki Hayao is on par with or exceeds Disney in terms of thought-provoking stories and family entertainment. Ninja Scroll is cool as a D&D esque Asian fantasy flick that takes place in a mystical Japan. Fist of the North Star is basically a story of Justice League level superhumans in a blasted post-apocalyptic wasteland. Think Road Warrior with Superman. No its not Shakespeare. But its a killer beer and pizza movie to watch with your friends. Even you watch it just to make fun of its over-the-top superpowered heroes. And the quotes! Man, I haven't see the movie in years but we still quote it at the game table!

Macross Plus is an excellent Top Gun style story set in a future sci-fi universe. It also has some interesting themes dealing things like man vs. machine, the nature of love, and artificial intelligence.

Some anime is really hard to understand unless you know the backstory. Akira, for example, is based on something like a 2000 page manga series. All of that condensed into a 2-hour movie. If you don't know the manga, the movie will probably be pretty opaque to you.

Anime excels at the cyberpunk genre. I'm not a big fan of cyberpunk because I don't buy the evil corporation dystopia nonsense. I don't really care for anime such as Ghost in the Shell. Although, even I have to admit its a very cool movie as far as cyberpunk goes.

So even if you think you hate anime, I'm sure that somewhere is an anime that you might like or at least tolerate simply because its so broad and diverse.

But some anime is great to watch in a MST3K sense with your friends. We watch Dragonball Z sometimes just to laugh at the bad guy who spends 10 minutes charging up enough chi energy to nuke a planet from orbit, and then get his butt kicked by the little kid with the spiky hair.


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## Alzrius (Jun 3, 2004)

My natural inclination is to like something, and anime falls firmly for me into this mode of thinking. To be fair though, I probably can't be too objective about this (discovering anime pretty much gave me my focus in life, since it got me interested in Japanese culture, leading me to eventually major in Japanese Studies, so I regard it quite highly), just so you know. 

I think one of the first problems here is an inability to define exactly what anime is. It's not a medium (the medium is animation), it's not a style (because we see various shows that are all called "anime" that look wildly different...compare Crayon Shin-chan to Crying Freeman), and it isn't location-based (since we see "American anime" or at least anime-style shows from America, such as Teen Titans).

That said, I simply don't understand how anyone can categorically dislike anything when it covers a multitude of genres...the fact that it has such diversity means that, even statistically speaking, there should be something that appeals to you. Think of whatever kind of movie you like, and there should be an anime with exactly those same qualities. Saying that one dislikes all anime doesn't make sense, simply because you haven't seen all anime, so there's a significant portion of it you're passing judgement on with virtually no knowledge of. Is it too over the top? Watch something that's about normal people with no action, like Maison Ikkoku. Don't like episodic format? Watch something where the episodes don't build on each other, like Cowboy Bebop. There is something out there for every taste.

I have things that I "hate" categorically, across all boundaries. For example, you'll never catch me playing a game on any console that wasn't made by Nintendo. However, I recognize that this is a personal foible - that this is my own unreasonableness coming into play here. There are plenty of great games on the PS2 and X-box that I'm sure I'd love - heck, Ive seen games for them that weren't for Nintendo that I want to play, but never will. That's me just being me - I've made up my mind and won't change it. Sounds like the same thing for the anime-haters, except some still seem to want to believe that it's the anime, and not them.


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## burnrate (Jun 3, 2004)

There are several posts in this thread already stating that anyone who hates anime is ignorant or something to that effect, which seems to me, in itself, an extremely ignorant statement. Hate is a strong word, not one I would use, but I do very much dislike all of anime art I've seen. So much so that it would ruin any aspect of a story or any entertainment value associated with a particular movie, show, or book. I don't like the hair, eyes, mouths, legs, bodies, weapons, color schemes or anything else about the art. It doesn't appeal to me. 

Does that make me ignorant? Does it mean I must like nascar or American television (I don't and don't)? What an ignorant thing to say! The art of anime, although I'm sure it varies across the genre, is so pervasive as to make the whole impossible to enjoy if it isn't art that appeals. The stories may be great. I'll never know. 

No, I don't only attribute my perception of the art to yu-gi-oh and pokemon, although those are so widespread they can't help but influence a perception. I see the art in video stores, on comic books, in game shops, on t-shirts, and on various other places. I don't know to which series they belong. I only know that collectively I don't like the art. 

I have no issue with those of you who do. Continue to enjoy. Don't think someone who doesn't think the same of the genre is an idiot however, as I've read in the above posts. It's like telling someone they are an idiot or ignorant because they don't like tomatos.


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## Nuclear Platypus (Jun 3, 2004)

Oh yeah. If you can find it, Robot Carnival was several shorts. The one I liked the most was the giant robot battle (one was coal powered while the other ended up being pedalled!) in feudal Japan.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> You've really got your labels mixed up.  Cartoon is an animated video medium.  Anime is a cartoon.  Manga is not anima, manga is manga.  Which is also not a medium, as it's a style of comic book.




Or do you have them mixed up? As I said before, anime is as much a cartoon as Heavy Metal is a cartoon. A cartoon is an animated show that is humorous in nature and mostly for children. While anime can be humorous or for children, it can also be neither. Neon Genesis Evengelion is not humorous or for children, neither is Vampire Hunter D. 

A medium is the way through which something is transfered. That medium for both cartoons and anime(which are both different) is animation. Or if you prefer to be more generalized than that TV, movie, OAV, etc. 

You are correct manga is not anime, I did not mean to refer to it as anime. If that was how it came off then that was a mistake on my part.


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## Creamsteak (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I also spied a Final Fantasy anime at Target, but I was too afraid to pick it up. Does it do my beloved game series justice? Or are my fears founded?




It's not very good. It's sort of interesting, but the whole time I couldn't wrap my mind around why I was watching this besides the fact that Final Fantasy was in the name.



That said, my opinion is that some anime series and movies are pretty cool,  but most of it is just as bad as a trashy romance novel or a soap opera. Not saying they are all that similar, but I'd put them at about the same level. My favorites have always been the mecha, cyberpunk, and other science fiction stories. Probably because I just love that. But the fantasy, with the exception of a few like Lodoss Wars, has been pretty tame and uninteresting. And the other genres just don't bite me as interesting (what's with the magical girl series and the stupid series where the entire cast might have super-powers, but basically they are all just angsty little children?)


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## beta-ray (Jun 3, 2004)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> Part of the "hate" is a real age gap I can see -- I can't think of anyone I know who's 30 or older that actually likes anime; everyone I know that likes it distinctly falls below that line, even if only by a few years.  Much as many from the younger generation loathe hair metal and other music from the 80's, many from the older generation look at what the younger generation is into and wonder what the hell the kids are thinking.




*Raises hand meekly* Uhm... I am now past the mid 30 mark and I like "anime" maybe more than I did before. I was raised on both Japanese and American animation... Luckily I was able to watch many Japanese cartoons with the original Japanese dialogue with subtitles. Sadly much the animation that is imported now is dubbed badly. Although we had Astro Boy here, my love for Japanese animation started with Mazinger Z. For American animation it was probably Flintstones, Milton the Monster, Fearless Fly and the Mighty Heroes. Oh I liked the Marvel stuff from the 60s too. 



> Dragon Ball Z seems to be considered to be a the representative of anime (Cartoon Network advertising it as the greatest show on Earth didn't help).  DBZ is a _terrible_ show, and a terrible representative of anime, especially of the newer stuff.  Cowboy Bebop and Trigun make much better representatives than the bulk of what Cartoon Network has run.




I don't care for Dragonball Z at all, though I did like the early episodes of Dragonball. Regarding Toriyama, I much prefer Dr. Slump. I liked Cowboy Bebop and Trigun too.



> Saikano and The 12 Kingdoms are even better representatives, but there's no way in hell Cartoon Network would ever run those.




Well I never thought they'd bring over FLCL... but they did! (like that wacky show as well)



> Much of the things I've seen people complain about in this thread tend to belong to the older, low-budget shows.




I don't think that the age of a show or it's budget necessarily have anything to do with the quality of a show... Many of the shows that I like are older and had a smaller budger than shows of today.

A lot of it, is due to my nostalgia I admit. I still think shows like Raideen and Getter Robo are cool. Just pure fun. I also like Zeta Gundam the best out of the Gundam stories even though the main character can be a bit of a pill.

Some random stuff I thought were good that were "anime" (not mentioned previously)... Robot Carnival (robot anthology stories)... The Hakkenden ("Eight Dog Tales" Buddhist Samurai story)... Giant Robo (over the top pulp action)... Raxhephon (people compare it to Evangelion... but funny I didn't really care for Evangelion)... Yukikaze (released recently in the USA, air force-type story)... Macross Plus (prequel to Macross or Robotech part I in the USA, not released here yet)... Spirited Away... Patlabor 2 (slow but interesting and not what most people would view as "anime art")...  Blood...  Jin Roh... Gosh I am sure there are tons I haven't mentioned...

Japanese animation I agree with others on (being good): Akira, Ghost in the Shell, Ruroni Kenshin, Escaflowne, Wolf's Rain...

Stuff I want to see... Last Exile, Ghost in the Shell: Man Machine Interface, Ghost in the Shell: Innocence, and more I can't think of right now...


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## Alzrius (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I also spied a Final Fantasy anime at Target, but I was too afraid to pick it up. Does it do my beloved game series justice? Or are my fears founded?




There are two Final Fantasy anime - Final Fantasy: Legend of the Crystals, and Final Fantasy: Unlimited.

Legend of the Crystals is a four-episode OVA that takes place two hundred years after Final Fantasy V. Here's a brief review that should roughly sum up the relevant information about it.

Final Fantasy: Unlimited (which I haven't seen yet) is best reviewed here: What is Final Fantasy: Unlimited?

Finally, although it isn't really an anime, Final Fantasy: Advent Children is the CGI sequel to Final Fantasy VII, not yet released in Japan (and thus, not anywhere else either). It's set, from what I vaguely recall from the rumors, two years after the game. The homepage has a few trailers.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 3, 2004)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> The worst thing about Anime in general is the Fans themselves....
> 
> And many would agree that anime isn't that bad, but there's quite a major problem with the most hardcore anime fans, the otaku in general.  They're among the worst types of geeks ever.  They're horribly annoying, painful to be around, and completely socially inept.


----------



## beta-ray (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> See, that's just plain ludicrous.  First of all, _television_ is the media, anime is a visual and storytelling style that encompasses many genres.  But saying that anime non-fans can't get their heads around anime because it addresses all genres of television is just plain wrong.  That's like saying we can't get our heads around television because it has so many genres.  It's a completely ludicrous position to take, and that's why I don't like ill-concieved anime fans that show up and pretend like anime's something really special when all it is is a style of animation and storytelling.  Because anime is just a style, I find it perfectly acceptable to say "I don't like that style, therefore I don't really like anime" without some half-assed excuses about "I just can't get my head around anime, because it's just so rich and expansive and special, like an episode of Blossom."  :rolleyes, damn I've missed you today:




Television is the media... but so is radio... and other venues. Television is the medium for animation though. Some people do not like television at all and would rather read. While I probably would not say that you "cannot get your head around" anime, I might say that you cannot accept it for some reason. It does pain me to think of anime as a style because there are so many variations in this one style. Do you feel that American animation is a style of animation? If so, then that's cool because at least I could understand it even if I don't agree with it.

Although I must say your condescending attitude about this topic does make it difficult to keep my opinions level. My apologies if that is insulting, perhaps both our attitudes are a result of the way online conversations take place.



> Save it, pal.  I've really tried to like anime.  I know a lot of people that like a lot of other things that I do that swear by it, so I've watched a lot of the highly recommended ones.




Did you really try to like it? That could be a plus or a minus (perhaps the expectations were too high?)... And I would never try to make you or anyone like anime as I would not want someone to make me try to like American Idol... but I wonder if you really meant that you tried or only that you watched it.



> The best I can say for them is that the best of the genre is mediocre -- and by far that is the exception.




Now it's a genre? I don't know if you have watched "the best"... I can't even say I have. But I have watched many I have liked... and many I have not liked.

Regardng other commentary that you have made... I am not sure if you have to be Japanese to like "anime" (again it pains me to say it since it really is only animation made in Japan... like I rarely call it American animation or British animation or French animation UNLESS I am making a direct comparsion)... I am in fact Japanese. However, I am a third generation Japanese, and even though I have been exposed to many things that are Japanese, I have also been exposed to many other cultures. I also like some Kung-Fu movies and Hong Kong movies, but I am not Chinese... I like D&D and I am not European... I am interested in things Japanese though so maybe it is hard for me to see out of it even though so many Japanese animated shows try to portray things outside of a Japanese context, it is almost impossible for no cultural influence to seep in. *shrug*


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## beta-ray (Jun 3, 2004)

Hey Dark Jezter, would you happen to have any pics of those renaissance fair guys... or babylon5 convention fans... or those guys in the stands at football games in early february...?


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## takyris (Jun 3, 2004)

I liked Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away, thought Ninja Scroll was moderately overrated and somewhat unappealing, and have had about equally "Eh" experiences with Giant-Robot anime, Harem anime, Sex Horror anime, Macross-related anime, and People-Fighting anime.  I may not have seen the best of these fields, so I'm not up to judge.  That's just my experience.

To be perfectly frank, I generally don't like anime because it's set to the wrong cultural frequency.  I could possibly learn to acquire it as a taste, but when I read a book or watch a television show, do you know what my favorite bits are?  Dialogue.  Wordplay.  Witticism.  Celebration of movement and banter and cleverness.  You know what the least important factor for me is?  Visual effect.  I could really care less about how it looks, as long as the dialogue is crisp and clean and people are having interesting character development.

Now, in a non-judgmental way, I would like to assert that most anime is either:

a) dubbed, which even the anime people will tell you is usually not a great idea, or 
b) subtitled, which can be better but which changes the pace of wording and loses much of the poetry of sound

Anime tends to have beautiful painstaking visuals -- which don't impress me, not because they're not good, but because that's not what I care about -- and, relative to the average American show, less dialogue (I'm sure exceptions exist on both sides; I'm making a general statement).  The emotional relationships of the characters often seem strained, muted, or cut off in some way. probably involving a cultural difference in terms of expression of emotion or something like that.  It's not *bad* == it's just not what I've been raised to appreciate.

I could, if properly motivated, learn Japanese and approach anime like I approach going to a museum -- a chance to be educated instead of entertained.  Kind of a character-building thing.  Maybe eventually I'd like watching it.  However... that seems like a lot of work.  I don't have a ton of incentive.  It's not like I have ten hours of spare time a week sitting around going, "Oooh, Tacky, learn Japanese and buy lots of anime!"

So, that's the big reason I don't generally dig on anime.

Reason two is (insert obligatory story about having some white dude tell me repeatedly about the inherent awesomeness of DBZ as the best that anime had to offer, followed by scene of said white dude becoming *amazingly* uncomfortable when I started to watch it with him and point out the homoerotic subtext).


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> Or do you have them mixed up? As I said before, anime is as much a cartoon as Heavy Metal is a cartoon. A cartoon is an animated show that is humorous in nature and mostly for children. While anime can be humorous or for children, it can also be neither. Neon Genesis Evengelion is not humorous or for children, neither is Vampire Hunter D.
> 
> A medium is the way through which something is transfered. That medium for both cartoons and anime(which are both different) is animation. Or if you prefer to be more generalized than that TV, movie, OAV, etc.



It's probably pointless to argue semantics, but a cartoon is typically hand-drawn animated video media.  Humorous and aimed at children have nothing to do with it.  To say that anime and cartoons are different, and that even an OAV is a separate _media_ isn't using the word any way that I understand it.


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## LightPhoenix (Jun 3, 2004)

First off, by the strict definition of the term, "cartoon" refers to _any_ animated style, in a variety of mediums.  

Also, the connotation of "cartoon" as childish is strictly a US cultural definition.  Anime is a form of cartoon that can be both childish and not.  In fact, even so in the US - you would be hard-pressed to find someone to argue that Doonesbury is childish... and in fact, the term came forth with the idea of political cartoons.  So saying that "cartoon=childish" is semantically, culturally, and historically flawed.

I too would argue that in the instance of anime, television is the medium, cartoon is the... genre, for lack of a better term, anime is the style, and then there are various sub-categories within anime.  To provide more examples... "drama" is a genre, "one-hour" is a style, "crime drama" is a sub-category; "comedy" is a genre, "sit-com" is a style, "urban" is a sub-category; "fantasy" could be argued as a genre, in which case "sci-fi" might be a style, and "star trek" might be a sub-category.

Do I particularly like anime?  No, I don't.  Am I so quick to write it off?  Of course not.  My dislike of anime comes from a general dislike of cartoons (as represented in the medium of television ) overall.  I'm much more fond of it in comics and especially movies.  More so than I dislike anime or cartoons in general, I like good stories.  And for the record, I fall squarely into the camp that feels Evangelion does not fall into the good-story category.

No small part of my dislike is also the way that the "Japanophiles" act - while I know not all people who enjoy aspects of Japanese culture conform to the stereotypes, a good majority of them do.  Especially in the sense that they often seem to dismiss any other opinion than their own as "wrong" and any cartoons other than anime as "crap".  Not that some of the posters in this thread haven't done the same.  

It's amusing though, as I type this up I can really understand why people can be less than fond of roleplaying...

Anyway, I think a big part of the general dislike even among those that give or are willing to give it a try is two-fold.  The first problem is that generally what we get in the US is crap.  I'm sorry, but Cartoon Network is not the savior of anime in the US, given that the vast majority of what they show is (from what I've gathered) generally considered to be in that 90% crap-range.  The second problem is that the good stuff is generally difficult to get ahold of, if you don't know how to go about looking for it... especially fan-subs.  Compounded with this is the fact that it's hard to find the 10% that isn't crap without some help.


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

beta-ray said:
			
		

> Although I must say your condescending attitude about this topic does make it difficult to keep my opinions level. My apologies if that is insulting, perhaps both our attitudes are a result of the way online conversations take place.



That's one of the biggest problems I have discussing anime -- I can't dislike it without being "condescending" apparently.  Let me just summarize by saying takyris summarized more clearly than I did what I was trying to get across by not "getting it" with anime, and never finding one that I thought was better than mediocre -- I don't regret watching it once, but I would never own it and in fact am discouraged from trying other anime's based on the several that I've seen while trying to grok the whole scene.


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## Green Knight (Jun 3, 2004)

I got nothing against anime, just the .... damn, I can't remember the word for it. The trappings? 

Specifically, I prefer cartoons where the people look as realistic as possible. So I tend to dislike cartoons were people have huge eyes, weirdly drawn lips, ridiculous hair, etc. I also dislike things like a giant sweat drop on someones face when they're embarassed. Or people constantly striking a pose whenever they're about to attack (Dragonball Z took this to absurd levels, with one guy turning around and bending over, looking at the good guy with his head peaking out between his legs). And last but not least, I don't like it when someone's going to attack someone else, but first they gotta jump a thousand feet in the air, with all kinds of swishy lines behind them. If they're gonna attack, then just have them attack. We can live without all the fanfare. 

But I got nothing against Japanese Anime, though. Robotech, for instance, is one of my favorite shows (And fortunately, the only thing on the above list that it suffers from is giving the characters ridiculous hair). Meanwhile, Teen Titans is busy apeing the most annoying aspects of anime. 

All-in-all, I'll take a Justice League, Batman: The Animated Series, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, and Robotech, over a Dragonball Z any day.


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## Green Knight (Jun 3, 2004)

> Reason two is (insert obligatory story about having some white dude tell me repeatedly about the inherent awesomeness of DBZ as the best that anime had to offer, followed by scene of said white dude becoming amazingly uncomfortable when I started to watch it with him and point out the homoerotic subtext).




Homoerotic subtext? I never noticed one. Then again, I was bored silly while watching it. I only kept up with it as long as I did because the sadomasichist in me wanted to see how long that damned fight between Goku and Frieza would last. If I remember right, it actually took 16 episodes (Cartoon Network was showing the series every weekday, at the time). ANY other show could've handled a fight like that in no more then 3 eps, possibly doing the big fight in one ep. Yet the DBZ people, for some interminable reason that I'll never understand, managed to stretch it out for 16 episodes. Most of which involved the two protagonists grunting, talking trash, and occasionally throwing a punch. They turned what SHOULD'VE been a climatic turning point in any series, the hero confronting the main villain, into a painful and annoying chore. There was more action, tension and emotion in the two-part X-Men: Evolution finale then there were in the entirety of those 16 episodes. Only reason I tuned in was to find out why so many people liked the show. Well, after seeing a large number of episodes of it over the course of a month, I came to the conclusion that all those people were just flat-out nuts. :\


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## TheAuldGrump (Jun 3, 2004)

Why do I hate anime? (Well, most anime, anyway)

Poor frame rate. Worse than Saturday morning cartoons. Even the movies generally suffer from poor frame rates.
Bad or nonexistent plot lines. (In this they differ little from many American cartoons, but I don't like a lot of _them_ either.)
Poor shading.

And quite often the people who tell me how _awesome_ Dragonball Z/Sailor Moon/Patlabor is.

On the other hand I have liked just about everything by Studio Ghibli. (I was introduced to Miyazaki's work under protest, but was very happy to be proved wrong. )

The Auld Grump


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## diaglo (Jun 3, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> In short. It's cartoons.
> 
> Mostly--in my experience--it's not very good cartoons.





i think i agree with Teflon Billy on something.

i also don't like how it bleeds into other aspects of culture for some of the same reasons.

crappy artwork on T-shirts.. with poorly chosen or quote dribble. and the obvious influence on my favorite hobby.


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## Psion (Jun 3, 2004)

takyris said:
			
		

> Now, in a non-judgmental way, I would like to assert that most anime is either:
> 
> a) dubbed, which even the anime people will tell you is usually not a great idea, or
> b) subtitled, which can be better but which changes the pace of wording and loses much of the poetry of sound




Wanna know something.

Whenever I watch Anime (or Wuxia, for that matter) on DVD, I watch it both dubbed and subtitled. It's interesting when the interperetation diverge, I sort of get a more complete picture of what they are trying to say.


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## s/LaSH (Jun 3, 2004)

These are things endemic to anime and manga (which are tied very closely). They're not present in all anime, for which I count my lucky stars.

- Visual shortcut lexicon: big sweatdrops, the 'wavy tearstream', mouths bigger than heads, blue wavy lines and all sorts of things that have meanings but are not immediately apparent and are blatantly unrealistic. I hate this stuff, even though I've learned to read it like the heiroglyphic system it really is. It breaks suspension of disbelief: you're supposed to be watching moving entities, not codified terms that might as well be printed a hundred to the page. (American animation is just as guilty of this. When was the last time you saw a Looney Toon's eyes pop out of his head? Or seen eyes perfectly white against utter darkness? These, however, are implemented more dimensionally, with motion, without abrupt transition. So I don't mind 'em quite as much. Grossout Nick cartoons and their ilk are, conversely, utterly abhorrent to me. I will never willingly watch Spongebob Squarepants.)

- Drastic economy of motion. Animation is the presentation of sequentially altered images to create the illusion of motion. Anime will often not take advantage of this, simply because it costs more to draw multiple versions of the same thing - and the preponderance of manga-based stuff means there's an abundance of still images to redraw once, colour, and twitch a little on a bright blurry background. Of course, when they do deign to implement motion, it's often pretty fantastic, but it's all too rare in most fare.

- Shouted attacks. We all know this one. Heck, the Japanese all know it too, and timestops during the shout are getting rarer. Good.

- Different goals. This is a big advantage of anime - the willingness to think outside the box. Often, they don't. Huge chunks of anime are just 'if we all work together, we'll overcome our enemies!'. Sometimes, however, they'll try to evoke a different mood, show you something different. Consider _Ghost In The Shell_, which you'd think was a cyberpunk story - but according to the Japanese voice actors, it's a love story. Yeah, I think they're on something too, but I'm now willing to alter my mindset and see different things in there instead of 'cool, shooting stuff, yeah'. It doesn't have to be about entertainment so much as _experience_. Subtle, but some of the time they achieve what they're setting out to do.
This also ties into the fact that anime really does have every genre under the sun somewhere under its umbrella. (Woo, mixed metaphors.) And then it gets funky and comes up with stuff you _can't get_ anywhere else - for a novelty junkie like myself, that's _great_. For someone whose xenophobia instinct (a vital part of every living being - not an insult here) is stronger than mine, maybe it's not so great.

- Different story paradigms. Western entertainment tends to go 'heroes suffer great trials and overcome them to win the day'. Anime can easily go 'heroes suffer great trials, one of 'em dies, the others win the day and he stays dead', or 'heroes wander the world, doing stuff in alignment with their philosophy, stuff happens, the end', or something else that isn't formulaic. I've caught flak in the past for suggesting that people are too conditioned to the Campbellian Journey of a very specific type, but that's just what I think may turn people off to a lot of anime. For example, I liked the Final Fantasy movie and the Matrix sequels, and they weren't typical 'good guys save the day and live happily ever after' fare.

There's a blurry analysis of anime for you. Most of it is, indeed, crap. But some of it isn't. I've seen stuff so simple you could replicate it in five minutes with some cardboard, a ruler, and a knife (Pokemon, frex). I've seen stuff that puts any Western comic to shame (manga, mostly; there's one passing shot of aircraft undercarriage in Kia Asamiya's _Batman: Child of Dreams_ comic that is both in-style and so detailed it looks like a photo - it probably was, once, but it's there, it fits, and I've never seen anything so well-integrated in Western stuff).

So, in the end, I hate stuff that's stupid and try to catch the good stuff. But then, I always do.


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## WizarDru (Jun 3, 2004)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> I will never willingly watch Spongebob Squarepants.



 Not sure why you think Spongebob is a 'gross-out' cartoon, honestly. It's a darned funny show that can be enjoyed by parents and kids at the same time...a worthy achievement, IMHO. I see Spongebob as the Warner Brothers of today (especially once you appreciate exactly how many cultural references were in the original cartoons...a majority of which are forgotten today).


  Anyhow, we were talking about anime. 



 First, I know of (including myself) at least a dozen anime fans over the age of 30, and I've met plenty more in my travels, so I think that Epametheus needs to broaden his social circles a tad. 

 I've been an anime fan for almost 25 years, now. I can easily understand how someone wouldn't like it, especially given the sudden and dramatic proliferation of it during the last five years, with some of the newer fans extolling its virtues as obnoxiously as possible.


  Hearing all about how terrible anime fans, of course, reminds me to bring THIS up again.


  I understand what Teflon Billy is saying, and as much as it bothers some anime fans, he's correct, to a point.  Anime, like any art form, shares certain tropes and conventions that it uses as part of it's collective language. Some folks just aren't going to like them, and that's just a matter of personal taste.  

 However, I will take issue with the idea that all anime (and often by extension, all manga) are the same. Many of the conventions that have been listed above do not apply equally to all anime, and lumping them together is the equivalent of saying that all american action films have the 'african american handicapped hacker' character, that all government agencies are corrupt and evil at their heart and that police officers always eat at donut shops instead of guarding the populace. It sounds a tad silly, because it IS a tad silly.

 Many of the comic elements of anime that americans find irritating or out-of-place are received much differently in Europe. Consider something like Daniel Torres' Triton, where serious sci-fi noir coexists with occasional comic overtones. However, to assume that all anime features those comic elements is off-base, as much as it would to assume that something like Enki Belial's "Hunting Party" would feature the same cartoony sidekicks of Triton. 

 A show and manga like Beserk! or Fist of the Northstar rarely features such elements, except to lighten the otherwise heavy mood. Note that the anime version of Berserk! totally lacks one of the comic relief characters of the series, Puck. A comedy action show like Inuyasha switches gears depending on the context, so that one moment it will feature slapstick, but those elements disappear when someone's life is on the line. A show like DBZ, who's roots are in the original DB, a comedy manga where the fighitng eventually obscured the silliness, has a much looser interpetation.  Something like Kare Kano goes entirely into the 'silly' phase, while a show like Master Keaton has no fantastic elements at all, not even the silly ones.

 My point being simply that anime is a wide category, and manga far more so, regardless of the emphasis placed on it by US audiences. That doesn't mean that many shows don't have them, quite the opposite. Personally, I enjoy the goofy comedy sequences in Full Metal Panic as much as I do the hard bitten mercenary combats...but to each his own.

 Psion, I would recommend Master Keaton as a show you might enjoy. It's very low key, and most episodes are self-contained (although as time passes, you get to know more of Keaton's life and personality through his adventures). You might think a series about an insurance investigator would be uninteresting...and you may think so after the fact, but I'd give it a try. I'd recommend a show like Gantz (about people who may be recently dead being forced to exterminate aliens living among us in what may be a usually lethal game to it's overlords), but it's not out DVD yet.

 You may or may not like Hellsing, which is very stylish, but sometimes the plot has it's weak points. I never much cared for Evangelion, and tend to think that Ghost in the Shell is overrated, and forced to bear a weight by many fans that it's shoulders simply can't bear. I much rather preferred RahXephon for it's story, and it's emphasis on the characters instead of the robot battles. And for the fact that it has a good ending, something some anime series don't always get right.

You might also enjoy Witch Hunter Robin, if you watch it with subtitles (the dub appears to be unusually bad, especially given the group). A very low key, slower-paced series that focuses much more on the characters of an organization that hunts 'witches' and the world they travel in. There is action, but it's not an action show, by my measure.

 One of the reasons, I think, that anime has become so popular is that it manages to approach a lot of genre material in a more mature fashion than most american animated fare. I've only seen a few U.S. produced animated shows that approach the same degree of sophistication as some shows.  

 Obviously, another appeal is that the content is much less restricted...and yes, I'm talking boobs, cursing and mature themes. How maturely those elements are applied varies widely...and when you consider the primary target audience for most anime is the teen-aged male, you can guess how some shows address it. They don't call it 'fan service' for nothing. 

 The real problem for prospective viewers, now, I think, is that it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff...and tastes vary so dramatically, it's hard to determine what to watch, for some folks. I liked Generator Gawl, for example, but I know it wasn't terribly original or popular, per se. I loved Giant Robo (the newest version), but it may have been too cartoony or camp for some folks. Some folks think that Ghost in the Shell was genius, and others thought it was just OK or pretentious. Just like any other form of entertainment, each person has their own preferences. Whether finding anime you like is worth your time is a personal question for each person to answer for themselves.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Edit: Double post...


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> It's probably pointless to argue semantics, but a cartoon is typically hand-drawn animated video media.  Humorous and aimed at children have nothing to do with it.  To say that anime and cartoons are different...




Well, it pretty much seems we will have to agree to disagree. 

You dislike it(as others here do), and I(and others) like it. You say that you don't "get it" and many of the cultural references went over your head. Many did for me to at the beginning, but I liked anime enough to research japanese culture so I get more and more of the references. As a plug...The Anime Companion by Portras is a great book filled with japanese cultural references in anime and manga. 

Dark Jester: Do you have an address for the place in the picture?


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## RangerWickett (Jun 3, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> Well, it pretty much seems we will have to agree to disagree.




*grin*  I called it, like, two pages ago.  It's impossible to change people's tastes.

I'm a fan of a lot of anime, because there's a lot more quality genre fiction out of anime from Japan than there is out of live-action TV in the U.S.  In the past decade, we've have three Star Trek series, Babylon 5, Angel, Buffy, the X-Files, Highlander, Hercules, Xena, and a handful of others.  Anime had, literally frikkin' dozens of different series.

While not all of them were of as high quality as, say, Angel in terms of writing, they could pull off the cool action sequences much better.  Watch a well-crafted anime music video (recipe: 1+ anime series, spliced for its coolest parts; 1 song; lots of editing equipment), and you'll see some phenomenal images in anime.  Overall there isn't as much movement in anime as in most shows on TV in the U.S., and dialogue is almost never witty in a manner I really like, but some of the situational humor is great.  And the visuals are often gorgeous.

I mostly just wanted to find out what it was about anime that incurred such rage in some people.  Nearly all of the people who've replied and said they don't like anime have had fine reasons why they didn't, and only a few were angry at the style.  If nothing else, this thread has been a trip down memory lane about different shows that I like.

And thankfully, most everyone seems to agree that DBZ -- at least as shown in the U.S. without the sexual humor -- sucks.  

(But it's good for a laugh.  In one game, the party sorcerer believed that his 'spells per day' replenished in a surge of golden energy every day at midnight.  So, inexplicably for the rest of the party, each night he'd clench his fists and roar, "Arrrrgh!" as a bright glow flashed over him.  *grin*)


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> And thankfully, most everyone seems to agree that DBZ -- at least as shown in the U.S. without the sexual humor -- sucks.




I don't think that it sucks. I liked it far better up until the Cell Saga, but you have to admit. As far as clever editing of images and ideas "not" meant for children(which the series by Z wasn't meant for children, but for young teens) that HFIL(home for infinite losers) is by far the top. HFIL, for anyone that hasn't watched it, was on the t-shirts on two ogres(demons) found in the afterlife. HFIL originally was HELL, but was censored.



> (But it's good for a laugh.  In one game, the party sorcerer believed that his 'spells per day' replenished in a surge of golden energy every day at midnight.  So, inexplicably for the rest of the party, each night he'd clench his fists and roar, "Arrrrgh!" as a bright glow flashed over him.  *grin*)



So the sorcerer believed through imitating constipation he received his powers?


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## Psion (Jun 3, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Not sure why you think Spongebob is a 'gross-out' cartoon, honestly. It's a darned funny show that can be enjoyed by parents and kids at the same time...a worthy achievement, IMHO.




If you had said "Dexters Lab", I might have given that too you. My daughters and I laugh uproariously at that.

Spongebob, well, my daughter enjoys.



> I see Spongebob as the Warner Brothers of today (especially once you appreciate exactly how many cultural references were in the original cartoons...a majority of which are forgotten today).




Again, I think Dexter wins here.

And yet, perhaps I am just getting old, but I think there is no Warner Brothers of today. My daughters will watch loony toons with me all day and be hooked to the TB, and I find humor in it that is absent today.



> Anyhow, we were talking about anime.




Would it help if I slipped in that I love it when Dexter makes anime references (like when they do "flashing background" scenes, or the whole "Dexters Family Giant Robot" episode)?


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## WizarDru (Jun 3, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Again, I think Dexter wins here.
> 
> And yet, perhaps I am just getting old, but I think there is no Warner Brothers of today. My daughters will watch loony toons with me all day and be hooked to the TB, and I find humor in it that is absent today.



Hooked to the TB?  Is that a type for TV, or a reference I'm not getting?

And yeah, I love Dexter's Lab, too...but my kids like Spongebob more than Dexter.  

Myself, I love Dexter more for the 70s Marvel Comics references, like the Justice Friends and Justice Fruit Pies commercials...not to mention Dial M for Monkey.  "Tiny Monkey!  I could crush your body, but I could never crush your spirit!"  the Macho Man's finest moment.


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## Desdichado (Jun 3, 2004)

The idea that animation is only for kids in the US is a dated idea, in my book.  Having a number of smallish kids in my house, I see a fair amount of cartoons, animated movies, etc. and I can promise you that there is tons of stuff that goes over the heads of kids.  Luckily so, as some of it is actually inappropriate for kids, for that matter (just saw Shrek 2 last night; Pinocchio wearing a woman's thong comes to mind).  One of our SpongeBob DVDs has a scene with Nosferatu, featuring some clips from the silent movie.  Wanna guess how many of my kids get that joke?

The latest wave of animation from the US is stuff that works at multiple levels.  Kids can enjoy it, but it's not just for kids.  A kid's movie is only so successful unless their parents can enjoy it too.  The line between a movie like Shrek and a movie like the Princess Bride is getting fainter and thinner all the time.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 3, 2004)

I don't hate anime, in fact, there are several anime series and movies that I like (but not Evangelion.  I really hate that pretentious mindfark).  I'm friends with several anime fans.  However, I agree 100% with the above poster who commented on hardcore anime fans.

I've hung out with sports fantatics, Trekkies, LARPers, SCAers, et cetera.  None of them have disturbed me as much as hardcore anime fans have.  Hardcore anime fans sneer at people who watch dubbed anime (believing fansubs to be the only true way to watch anime), lust after 14-year-old Rei Ayanami or any other underaged anime girl, spend hundreds of dollars on anime merchandise every month and then complain about how hard it is to pay rent, insert Japanese words and phrases into everyday conversation, religiously watch shows intended for adolescent girls despite being a grown man, and have large collections of anime porn that involves tentacles or girls with male genitalia. 

Not all anime fans are like that, mind you.  But I know a few who are, and they've scared the hell outta me.


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## beta-ray (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> That's one of the biggest problems I have discussing anime -- I can't dislike it without being "condescending" apparently.  Let me just summarize by saying takyris summarized more clearly than I did what I was trying to get across by not "getting it" with anime, and never finding one that I thought was better than mediocre -- I don't regret watching it once, but I would never own it and in fact am discouraged from trying other anime's based on the several that I've seen while trying to grok the whole scene.




And I state again the nature of online "conversations". I guess the rolling of the eyes and pokemon reference made me think it was condescending. I did read your subsequent post about some animation being aimed at adults. Just wondering, is there any non-humorous animation that you have liked? Most that you mentioned tend to be humorous...


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## Ferret (Jun 3, 2004)

I think (philosophical cap on) that anime is not like real life so what we see is "twisted reality" where good always prevails. Where as Western non anime looks a lot more like real life, and good always wins in the end. Also Anime is foreign and thus very very scary.

Also in my personal opinion Anime is quite cool, some is odd in my personal view but I don't expect to understand everything. Akira is good, 



Spoiler



I can handle the child people and the excessive (hardly) but the creepy body thingy ugh, thats one of the few things that REALY gets me


. Pokemon is like our version of...uhm something but it isn't that bad.


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## beta-ray (Jun 3, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> I got nothing against anime, just the .... damn, I can't remember the word for it. The trappings?




hehe which is funny since as an avatar you have a autobot (cybertron) mark... Of course the transformers has a mixed origin of American and Japanese (and nowadays with Simon Furman, British)...



> Specifically, I prefer cartoons where the people look as realistic as possible. So I tend to dislike cartoons were people have huge eyes, weirdly drawn lips, ridiculous hair, etc.




Darn that leaves out Futurama and Dexter's Lab, two of my favorite shows...

Have you seen Patlabor 2 and Jin-Roh? While not photorealistic, the characters have many naturalistic features...



> But I got nothing against Japanese Anime, though. Robotech, for instance, is one of my favorite shows (And fortunately, the only thing on the above list that it suffers from is giving the characters ridiculous hair). Meanwhile, Teen Titans is busy apeing the most annoying aspects of anime.




That's cool, I liked Robotech enough (would have preferred it not to be connected and hated the voices)... I can tolerate the Teen Titans, but understand where you are coming from. 



> All-in-all, I'll take a Justice League, Batman: The Animated Series, He-Man and the Masters of the Universe, and Robotech, over a Dragonball Z any day.




While I agree I find it funny that JL and Batman character designs are no more "realistic" than most Japanese animation (and several episodes of Batman were done by Japanese prodution companies). They just have smaller eyes. I also liked Batman Beyond, which had severl "trappings" of Japanese animation... and a scene from the pilot that ripped off Akira directly (though I have heard them disavow any liking to it).


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 3, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> The idea that animation is only for kids in the US is a dated idea, in my book.  Having a number of smallish kids in my house, I see a fair amount of cartoons, animated movies, etc. and I can promise you that there is tons of stuff that goes over the heads of kids.  Luckily so, as some of it is actually inappropriate for kids, for that matter (just saw Shrek 2 last night; Pinocchio wearing a woman's thong comes to mind).  One of our SpongeBob DVDs has a scene with Nosferatu, featuring some clips from the silent movie.  Wanna guess how many of my kids get that joke?
> 
> The latest wave of animation from the US is stuff that works at multiple levels.  Kids can enjoy it, but it's not just for kids.  A kid's movie is only so successful unless their parents can enjoy it too.  The line between a movie like Shrek and a movie like the Princess Bride is getting fainter and thinner all the time.




Ah, but the demographic these shows and movies are aimed at is the kids. Yeah, they throw in a few "over-the-head" of children references so that the parents might like it, or at least stomach it. I'll tell you why they do this. So the parents will take the kids to see the movie more than once and be more likely to buy the video. Until the day that animated movies are made that are targeted towards older demographics...US animation will mostly be nothing but for kids. There are a few shows(such as South Park and King of the Hill), but few have anything resembling a cohesive story.


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## MaxKaladin (Jun 3, 2004)

> Hardcore anime fans sneer at people who watch dubbed anime (believing fansubs to be the only true way to watch anime), lust after 14-year-old Rei Ayanami or any other underaged anime girl, spend hundreds of dollars on anime merchandise every month and then complain about how hard it is to pay rent, insert Japanese words and phrases into everyday conversation, religiously watch shows intended for adolescent girls despite being a grown man, and have large collections of anime porn that involves tentacles or girls with male genitalia.



I have to admit this stuff creeps me out a bit.  My only real gripe with "Anime" as an entertainment subculture is the way its creeping into other areas.  I like realistic art and I can deal with the stylized art of anime when its _in _ anime but when it starts to creep into other areas, I get annoyed.


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## fba827 (Jun 3, 2004)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I see a lot of people here getting all moany and doomsaying about anime, as if Japanese culture was personally responsible for you having less fun in your life.  Is it just that lots of people here have hard-ons for Hanna-Barbera cartoons?  Or are they just angry that Pokemon made more money than Maigc for a while?
> 
> Really, I mean, I know art preferences vary, and heck, I tend to dislike amateur art (especially in game books), but anime is just a different style, which generally favors less photorealism than European-derived Western art.  Eastern art styles tend to be a little more flashy, a little more over the top, and for some reason there are a lot of people who just, it seems, hate that.
> 
> I can't understand it?  What's so horrible?



 I simply don't like the animation style... too much over the top (facial expressions, etc.).  Having said that, I often _love_ the story or plot lines.. they often are epic in feel and I like that.   Some of them have bad / corny dialogue though -- odd translations perhaps....   so, i try to get into them to see the overaching plots/stories... but between the animation style and the dialogue, sometimes i just can't get that far into it.  -- just my own opinion.


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## Kesh (Jun 3, 2004)

I think, in my opinion, it boils down to this metaphor.

Think about paintings. Now, there's a baseline here: you apply paint to some medium to create a statement and/or artwork. However, there's so many ways of doing so: realist, surreal, cubist, abstract, etc.

I can understand when people say, "I can't stand cubism. It doesn't make any sense, it's just grossly distorted. An attention-grabber. It's not art, it's laziness." I can also understand when someone says, "Realism is a cop-out. You're just copying what's in front of you! Where's the challenge in that?" Or even, "I've heard some people think spraypainting a picture on a wall is art. BS! It's graffiti, nothing more! Defacing public property, spraying toxic chemicals all over the place... it's a real menace. They should lock all those losers up."

What would boggle my mind is if someone said, "I hate paintings! Those damn splatters on walls are a waste of time, and trying to painstakingly copy that lighthouse on canvas is even worse. And those art snobs! God, I can't stand them! All that talk about 'negative space' and interrupting normal conversations to point out an interesting 'subject'. And don't get me started on those lewd Renaissance guys. There's really something wrong with those people."


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## Greatwyrm (Jun 3, 2004)

I don't have any problem with anime in and of itself.  I like animation in general.  I've even seen a fair amount of anime I like.  I just don't like how some shows can't make up their mind what genre the story is.  Sometimes it's like the writers are just rolling on a chart.

"Okay, we've got a 12 yr old with a big robot and we add... (roll) (roll) (roll) demons!  Start writing."

Kinda makes me wonder if many of the plots come from some kind of Iron Anime Writer (tm) competition gone wrong.


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## trancejeremy (Jun 3, 2004)

I really like shows like Trigun and Cowboy Bebop where the main characters are mostly adults.

But the ones where the main characters are schoolkids is a bit weird. Of course, I didn't like Buffy the Vampire Slayer for the same reason.


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## Green Knight (Jun 4, 2004)

> hehe which is funny since as an avatar you have a autobot (cybertron) mark... Of course the transformers has a mixed origin of American and Japanese (and nowadays with Simon Furman, British)...




Yeah, they started out as two different Japanese toy robot lines. Microman, and I forgot the other. They were combined into the Transformers line by Hasbro, which also provided the backstory for them (Cybertron, Autobots and Decepticons, etc). Doesn't matter, though, because the original Transformers cartoon didn't exhibit any of those anime conventions, either. Spike didn't have wild, spiky hair, giant sweat drops didn't form on Optimus Prime's face when he got nervous, Megatron didn't call out attacks, Starscream didn't strike a pose before he was about to attack someone, etc. 



> Darn that leaves out Futurama and Dexter's Lab, two of my favorite shows...




I don't see it. Their hair looks normal to me. Fry obviously doesn't put all that much effort into combing it. And Dexter's Lab, I watch that on occasion, but he doesn't have that crazy anime hair. Go here to see what I mean. Specifically, the guy in the back, Trowa. I liked Gundam Wing, and I liked his character, but damn, I found his haircut annoying.  I managed to ignore it and enjoy the series, though. All in all, that's a minor complaint. It becomes magnified only when combined with all those other anime elements. Besides, that's a minor example. I've seen much worse. 



> Have you seen Patlabor 2 and Jin-Roh? While not photorealistic, the characters have many naturalistic features...




Never heard of them. 



> That's cool, I liked Robotech enough (would have preferred it not to be connected and hated the voices)...




The voices were fine to me. Loved the series, though. Especially Macross. Didn't much care for the Robotech Masters, and I never saw New Generation. So I'll probably have to agree that it's best that they were never connected, though that may change once I get a chance to see New Generation, and how they worked it into the Macross universe. Macross, however, was fantastic. I was ecstatic when I got the DVD set last Christmas. 



> I can tolerate the Teen Titans, but understand where you are coming from.




Personally, I only tolerate it because they're the Teen Titans. And even then, they're pushing me so far. Like I said, before, I can tolerate little things like the crazy hair. But Teen Titans makes an effort at throwing every anime convention into the pot as often as possible, and it gets really annoying after a while. The Slade episodes are the only real saving grace for the series (I REALLY wish he was called Deathstroke or The Terminator). 



> While I agree I find it funny that JL and Batman character designs are no more "realistic" than most Japanese animation (and several episodes of Batman were done by Japanese prodution companies).




This ... 







... certainly looks a lot more realistic then this. 








> They just have smaller eyes.




And tend to have normal hair. And they don't draw some ridiculous looking lips, which some shows do on occasion. I was looking at the end of Duel Masters the other day, waiting for Justice League to come on, and they had some short fat guy with this oval drawn around his lips. It looked weird as hell. 



> I also liked Batman Beyond, which had severl "trappings" of Japanese animation... and a scene from the pilot that ripped off Akira directly (though I have heard them disavow any liking to it).




Certainly nothing noticable. Terry McGuiness didn't have crazy spiky hair that stuck out on one side, giant sweat drops didn't form on his face when he was caught sleeping in class, he didn't call out attacks, he didn't have any friends with ridiculously drawn lips to make them look silly, and when he jumped in the air they didn't throw up colored banners and confetti behind him.


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## dreaded_beast (Jun 4, 2004)

I'm an anime fan.

I have no problem with people who like or don't like anime. We all have different opinions/tastes. What I don't like is when differences in opinions/tastes lead to personal attacks and verbal abuse, as if a particular opinion/taste is superior to another.

That being said, I believe anime is something you either like or don't like.

It's like asking someone,

"Why do you like vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate?"

There is no clear cut answer. It's all a matter of taste.


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## WizarDru (Jun 4, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> The idea that animation is only for kids in the US is a dated idea, in my book. Having a number of smallish kids in my house, I see a fair amount of cartoons, animated movies, etc. and I can promise you that there is tons of stuff that goes over the heads of kids. Luckily so, as some of it is actually inappropriate for kids, for that matter (just saw Shrek 2 last night; Pinocchio wearing a woman's thong comes to mind). One of our SpongeBob DVDs has a scene with Nosferatu, featuring some clips from the silent movie. Wanna guess how many of my kids get that joke?



"Then who's clicking the lights?....NOSFERATU!!!" 



			
				Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> The latest wave of animation from the US is stuff that works at multiple levels. Kids can enjoy it, but it's not just for kids. A kid's movie is only so successful unless their parents can enjoy it too.



Sure...for comedy.  But, and you can take your time here, how many animated shows can you name that were made for adults in particular and that weren't comedy related.  The various animated Batmans, Superman and Justice League are only three of the four series I can think of, the only other example being Invasion: America (or was it Earth?).

The idea of making cartoons with elements for both adults and kids isn't new...they've been doing that since the 1930s.  But with the exception of a few Ralph Bakshi films and maybe "Triplets of Belleville", there have been virtually NO serious-toned non-anime shows to speak of that weren't kids adventure shows or toy tie-ins that I can recall.

Of course, that's one reason I am waiting VERY anxiously for the Johnny Quest box set that's coming out...so I can share it with my kids.  I know my son, in particular, will love it.


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## Wereserpent (Jun 4, 2004)

I like Anime.  I hope I am not like one of those weird fans you all tallk about.  But do not hate them, cause they are people too.


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## s/LaSH (Jun 4, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> But, and you can take your time here, how many animated shows can you name that were made for adults in particular and that weren't comedy related.  The various animated Batmans, Superman and Justice League are only three of the four series I can think of, the only other example being Invasion: America (or was it Earth?).




Invasion: America. (Invasion: Earth was a British miniseries, liveaction, featuring Taelon-esque refugees fleeing n-dimensional organic weirdness, and it ended... well, let's just say that anime isn't the only thing that doesn't wrap up the plot satisfactorially. (sp?))That was cool. Funny thing though, at least here in New Zealand they rated it G. Even the episode where someone gets carved down the middle and separates messily. I didn't mind, I just thought 'hey, someone's obviously concluded that cartoons are for kids'.

Which reminds me of something I heard last week. I don't know if it's true or not, but here's how it was told me: Neon Genesis Evangelion. In Japan, it was _almost_ given a Violence rating that would have taken it off children's TV. In America, it was given a Violence rating and some sort of Disturbing Philosophy rating. In Australia, it was given a Religious Themes rating.

Interesting how cultures work, huh?

Which further reminds me, of course, that _interesting_ is a perfectly valid reason to enjoy something. Exposure to the new. To me, there is no perfection, but striving to find the best, the new, and build something more perfect is paramount. But that's pseudoreligious philosophy so I'll leave off that.

Finally, I know Spongebob isn't a grossout toon - but it looks like one, and I find it extremely difficult to get over that prejudice. Plus I just don't have the time, so screaming and running frees up my time for other things.


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## mmu1 (Jun 4, 2004)

takyris said:
			
		

> To be perfectly frank, I generally don't like anime because it's set to the wrong cultural frequency.  I could possibly learn to acquire it as a taste, but when I read a book or watch a television show, do you know what my favorite bits are?  Dialogue.  Wordplay.  Witticism.  Celebration of movement and banter and cleverness.  You know what the least important factor for me is?  Visual effect.  I could really care less about how it looks, as long as the dialogue is crisp and clean and people are having interesting character development.




I think this sums up the reason I don't enjoy most anime very well - it has more to do with cultural differences than the anime style (although that has much to answer for as well, but many people have gotten into talking about the silly anime conventions in this thread already).

I care about the story - and I find most _Japanese_ stories to be either disjointed, nonsensical, stilted, uncomfortable or alien. (not necessarily in that order - nor am I suggesting the above adjectives apply to all Japanese storytelling equally frequently or interchangeably)

The pacing is strange (or rather, it usually drags - unless there's a huge unexplained gap of days or years) the dialogue frequently seems forced (why is the obvious stated so often, and belabored ad nausem?), the humor too often escapes me... And it's not just Anime - the same holds true for me with Japanese RPGs, as well as Japanese books.  As far as the books go, this ranges from being able to appreciate the point the writer tries to make, but finding the presentation unnatural and artificial, and the characters alien (Yukio Mishima's _Temple of the Golden Pavillion_, for example) to picking up something like _Battle Royale_ and finding what felt like an action anime set down on paper.

Not surprisingly, perhaps, the anime I enjoy the most is one where the subtitles or the dubbing were done in a way designed for the sensibilities of an American viewer - abandoning complete accuracy for a more natural feel, better use of idiom, and so on.  For example - I love the dubbed Cowboy Bebop (American idiom, western speech patterns - at least in the DVD version), but if I try to watch it with the subtitles on, the dialogue makes me want to roll my eyes at how stilted it feels (to me).

Aside from all that (or perhaps that's still a part of what I think of as a completely different storytelling style), there's the anime that simply _Makes No Bloody Sense._ Sometimes it's because (like in Akira) there's a huge and unknown backstory. Other times, (like in Evangelion, for example - IMO) the author seems to get lost in his own story, and isn't able to deliver on the greater philosophical message he was trying for, or even provide a coherent ending.  Or perhaps sometimes the director's just being too much of an artist to feel the need to respect his audience.   
And too many people by far tend to give it a free pass a)Because it's anime and b)Because they think they "get it" (while in reality they simply let their imagination fill in the continent-sized plotholes and brush away the bad writing in one of the infinite possible ways - hardly a phenomenon unique to anime, of course... dare I mention... Star War prequels?  - but probably more common there than anywhere else), and you don't.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 4, 2004)

s/LaSH said:
			
		

> Which reminds me of something I heard last week. I don't know if it's true or not, but here's how it was told me: Neon Genesis Evangelion. In Japan, it was _almost_ given a Violence rating that would have taken it off children's TV. In America, it was given a Violence rating and some sort of Disturbing Philosophy rating. In Australia, it was given a Religious Themes rating.
> 
> Interesting how cultures work, huh?




Yeah, I think I mentioned something along this line on one page of this thread(after four or five...it all blends).

Here are some examples from anime on TV here in the U.S. that has been edited:
-In Pokemon, which of course is a kids show here and in Japan, Team Rocket's James is a cross dresser. They cut that to shreds here.
-In Sailor Moon Zoicite is a man (nope..not making that up) and is in love with Malachite(Kunzite in japanese).
-Also in Sailor Moon...Sailor Neptune and Uranus are cousins in the american version, but lesbians in the japanese. 
-The HFIL I already mentioned in Dragonball Z..and far more that could be counted.
-In Tenchi Muyo, there are scenes where the females are in the hot spring baths. They have edited swimsuits(badly done swimsuits) on all the females..except Sasami who always wears a towel.

I could keep going, but that is enough.

The differences in what is acceptable come from two places IMO:
-I believe the US has a much more tightened approach to showing anything to do with sex and especially in cases where minors(any minors) could be present. That is why millions can die in a movie and still be PG-13, but one boobie and it is instantly R.
-The other is the fact..many try and blame the problems with children on TV, Music, Movies, Games, and used to use roleplaying games instead of looking at problems at home and with bad parenting.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 4, 2004)

mmu1 said:
			
		

> Aside from all that (or perhaps that's still a part of what I think of as a completely different storytelling style), there's the anime that simply _Makes No Bloody Sense._ Sometimes it's because (like in Akira) there's a huge and unknown backstory. Other times, (like in Evangelion, for example - IMO) the author seems to get lost in his own story, and isn't able to deliver on the greater philosophical message he was trying for, or even provide a coherent ending.




With Evangelion and a lot of other anime, there is a problem with funding. Sometimes it is when a company only forks over money for so many episodes and you must wrap it up within that many...even if it means a crappy ending. Other times there is a problem with the production studio going out of business or having to cut a lot of projects (The Big O and Trigun I believe are in this category). 

Evangelion was a member of the first category, but got to make two(I believe) endings in the form of movies. Well, personally I believe the creator Gainax was intentionally trying to stay incoherent with an ending. Being weird for weirdness sake.

While I do not understand all of what is going on in Evengelion. Few do, and those that do are probably lying. I have a soft spot for it because of one of my greatest roleplaying game campaigns ever was using the series. There was some sweet mindblowing stuff in those ten or so sessions.


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## Alzrius (Jun 4, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> While I do not understand all of what is going on in Evengelion. Few do, and those that do are probably lying.




I found it rather easy to understand the ending, heck, I found it spoke to me rather strongly on a personal level. The movie required a bit more interpretation, but was by no means so out there as to be impossible to understand. Understanding is relative, and films that are hard to understand are by no means limited to anime.

Just look at Donnie Darko.


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## Alzrius (Jun 4, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> This ...
> 
> [Bruce Wayne]
> 
> ...




And that's a universal qualifier how? Try making that comparisson again, this time using a character from Spongebob, and a character from Ghost in the Shell.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 4, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I found it rather easy to understand the ending, heck, I found it spoke to me rather strongly on a personal level. The movie required a bit more interpretation, but was by no means so out there as to be impossible to understand. Understanding is relative, and films that are hard to understand are by no means limited to anime.
> 
> Just look at Donnie Darko.




Liar!  Just kidding. Please explain it to me... I've always wondered exactly what is going on.


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## Pants (Jun 4, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> And that's a universal qualifier how? Try making that comparisson again, this time using a character from Spongebob, and a character from Ghost in the Shell.



Or how about this?





Against...




From Jin-Roh


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## Impeesa (Jun 4, 2004)

Halivar said:
			
		

> Somebody buy this man a drink! Impeesa, I give you a (+5, Insightful) in my heart.




Mod parent up! +5, Geek.

I would feel more justified in calling you a geek if it weren't for the fact that when I first read this, I was supposed to be working and the only other window I had open was Slashdot. 

--Impeesa--


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## beta-ray (Jun 4, 2004)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Yeah, they started out as two different Japanese toy robot lines. Microman, and I forgot the other. They were combined into the Transformers line by Hasbro, which also provided the backstory for them (Cybertron, Autobots and Decepticons, etc). Doesn't matter, though, because the original Transformers cartoon didn't exhibit any of those anime conventions, either. Spike didn't have wild, spiky hair, giant sweat drops didn't form on Optimus Prime's face when he got nervous, Megatron didn't call out attacks, Starscream didn't strike a pose before he was about to attack someone, etc.




I won't argue that the Transformers is different from the martial arts themed cartoons (though there may have been some posing and shortcut action. Just thought it was funny you used basically an "anime" icon as your avatar. And I believe the other toyline was diaclone.



> I don't see it. Their hair looks normal to me. Fry obviously doesn't put all that much effort into combing it. And Dexter's Lab, I watch that on occasion, but he doesn't have that crazy anime hair. Go here to see what I mean. Specifically, the guy in the back, Trowa. I liked Gundam Wing, and I liked his character, but damn, I found his haircut annoying.  I managed to ignore it and enjoy the series, though. All in all, that's a minor complaint. It becomes magnified only when combined with all those other anime elements. Besides, that's a minor example. I've seen much worse.




Maybe Dexter doesn't exhibit "anime hair" but if you seen people with hair like that, you live in a much different place than I. Plus I believe "big eyes" were also mentioned... and if you think no one in Futurama don't have big eyes...



> Never heard of them.





Jin-Roh
Patlabor 2




> The voices were fine to me. Loved the series, though. Especially Macross. Didn't much care for the Robotech Masters, and I never saw New Generation. So I'll probably have to agree that it's best that they were never connected, though that may change once I get a chance to see New Generation, and how they worked it into the Macross universe. Macross, however, was fantastic. I was ecstatic when I got the DVD set last Christmas.




 Ewww I much preferred Minmay's singing in Japanese... but that is just me. It is a toss up between Macross and Mospeada (Robotech's New Generation). Both were excellent. 

You might want to consider purchasing the original version rather than the Robotech version...
Genesis Climber Mospeada 



> This ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's cool and I understand. Actually I really dislike the Yu-Gi-Oh character designs. However, did you ever take a look at Batman's chin? Kinda wacky if you ask me (I love Batman TAS).




> Certainly nothing noticable. Terry McGuiness didn't have crazy spiky hair that stuck out on one side,




Note that some Japanese kids (usually the punks) have this type of hairstyle nowadays.



> giant sweat drops didn't form on his face when he was caught sleeping in class, he didn't call out attacks, he didn't have any friends with ridiculously drawn lips to make them look silly, and when he jumped in the air they didn't throw up colored banners and confetti behind him.




He did have speed lines on occassion though. Again, BB was not a martial arts animation. I was really referring to the shot of the guy on the bike skidding out in the pilot... a complete riff of Kaneda in Akira.


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## Alzrius (Jun 4, 2004)

Caspian Moon Prince said:
			
		

> Liar!  Just kidding. Please explain it to me... I've always wondered exactly what is going on.




What's going on is during episodes 25-26, we're getting direct insight into the mind/heart/soul of Shinji, Asuka, Misato, and possibly Rei also, with the majority of it being Shinji.

The thing to focus on here is the thematic insight of what is happening...concerns of "where are they?" "how did they get there?" "what is happening?" "Who is asking these questions?" are supposed to be immaterial. What's important to understand is that these episodes focus on the fact that these characters, and by empathizing, everyone, feels insecure, scared, and lonely, desiring to feel good about who they are, and to love and be loved...chiefly through interacting with other people.

The last few minutes of the last episode are cathartic for Shinji, because he finally realizes that relying on external validation of his existence is a fool's game...he doesn't need other people to say that he's worthy of being, he just needs to believe he is. Not coincidentally, it's when he finally feels this way about himself that everyone in his life suddenly appears and congratulates him...again, that's not meant to be taken literally; it's symbolic that how you feel about yourself is what you receive from others...you get back what you put out.

I personally found this to be an incredibly uplifting message, and was deeply moved...all the moreso for the fact that I can draw strong parallels between myself and Shinji. For him to be able to overcome his own inner demons like that and self-actualize by declaring that he knows he's a good person worthy of continuing on in this existence, I saw the same thing for myself. I think (and this is totally just my opinion), that that's the meaning of life...that we set our own meaning; we're all as happy or as unhappy as we set our minds to being. "Life is painful - suffering is optional" is another way of saying it.


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## Desdichado (Jun 4, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Sure...for comedy.  But, and you can take your time here, how many animated shows can you name that were made for adults in particular and that weren't comedy related.  The various animated Batmans, Superman and Justice League are only three of the four series I can think of, the only other example being Invasion: America (or was it Earth?).



I dunno.  Titan A.E.?  I guess the point I was making wasn't that there are "adult" cartoons out there that are good -- I'm not sure that there are, but that the line between something like Shrek and something like the Princess Bride, which I've never heard anyone call a kid's show, is growing increasingly thin.  I imagine it won't be more than a few years before the line is gone completely.


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## Henry (Jun 4, 2004)

*Why don't I like Anime Style in General?*

While some anime I really get and enjoy (Cowboy Bebop being an example), most just either sails over my head, or looks far too unrealistic for me to enjoy.

You do have some cartoons with anime-like features (Futurama and Simpsons being two examples), the creator Groening does not go out of his way to inject unrealistic actions on the part of the characters.  If Futurama were done in true anime style, Leela would be jumping 15 feet in the air, with steam coming out of her ears, splay-legged, and eyes like pie-plates, every time Frye ticked her off.  Homer would be moving his mouth at twice the speed he was speaking when yelling at Bart, _"Why you little!!!"_ As it is, a little cartoon action I can stand, but as I've grown up, my taste in "realism" in animated features has changed. The main reason I like Warner Brothers cartoons still? Nostalgia, more than anything, realizing that the actions were indeed axaggerated or simplified, and loving those humorous storylines in spite of the imagery.

I liked Bebop because the storylines were mature and coherent, and the characters rarely made gross exaggerated actions. 

Certain things simply make me break my Suspension of Disbelief - dubbed live-action foreign films are one, and exaggerated actions in anime are another.

_(And yes, considering what version of Cowboy Bebop I watched, that's ironic, but I can much better visualize different things coming out of Spike Speigel's mouth, than I can Jackie Chan sounding like a midwestern farmboy.)_


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## Xael (Jun 4, 2004)

Hard to say. I generally don't understand how one can hate _anything_. Hate is such a strong word. 

The most simple reason why I'd thing that one doesn't like the anime is the style. Yes, it's (usually) more simplistic. Yes, there (usually) are giant eyes, mouth, sweatdrops etc. And yes, there's usually much less frames. Personally, they usually don't bother me. Sometimes they do.

I personally like most of the anime I've seen (though what's the point of watching bad stuff?), but it's not the genre that defines what I like. There are lots of western cartoons and comics that I like, that have style that is the direct opposite of most animes/mangas.

If there's one thing I'd have to give anime/manga credit, it's the larger selection of stuff made to other than children. Though this doesn't stop a manga aimed at 10-year old girls from being one of my favourite comics.  

But I'm still waiting a western cartoon or comic that would make me (almost) cry. Manga and anime (only couple though) have done that.


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## Caspian Moon Prince (Jun 4, 2004)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> What's going on is during episodes 25-26, we're getting direct insight into the mind/heart/soul of Shinji, Asuka, Misato, and possibly Rei also, with the majority of it being Shinji.
> 
> The thing to focus on here is the thematic insight of what is happening...concerns of "where are they?" "how did they get there?" "what is happening?" "Who is asking these questions?" are supposed to be immaterial. What's important to understand is that these episodes focus on the fact that these characters, and by empathizing, everyone, feels insecure, scared, and lonely, desiring to feel good about who they are, and to love and be loved...chiefly through interacting with other people.
> 
> ...




I understood that it was suppose to be more of an insignt into each character's personality, but I was taking it to literal I believe. I'll have to find the last eps and rewatch it. THANKS!


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## Someone (Jun 4, 2004)

I don´t hate anime, just don´t like (most of it) Specially the pace: action is fast and confusing, but overall history goes s-l-o-w. Lots of people on the screen jumping and shouting, but actually nothing happens.


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## mojo1701 (Jun 4, 2004)

My personal thoughts on the subject:

1. I personally do not _love_ anime, and I don't hate it, either. It depends on the subject matter itself. Hentai tentacle-porn? No. I'm sorry, but if I wanna see porn, I'll get the real thing

2a. I like the style of drawings (i.e. Manga). It's a nice-looking concept. My brother's been drawing some of that lately.

b. Crazy hair? eeew. Hair like that wasn't popular since the '80s.

3.  







			
				MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> anime fans/freaks.
> Same as gamers, there are cool ones, and then the unbathed/unsocialized ones.
> 
> It just seems the "anime freaks" are so starved for people to look at
> them they overshadow the normal fans.




Exactly.

4. 







			
				Psion said:
			
		

> I dislike some anime conventions. The less realistic the portrayal is, the less I like the art. For example, one that I really hate is when yelling, the characters' mouths wrap around their head.
> I dislike the snooty overplayed arrogant villain archetype. But I think Yu-Gi-Oh pushed me over the edge on this one.




A friend of mine went ot Anime North here in Ontario, and showed me footage of what he saw there. Again: eeewww. Same with the villains. The voices (especially like the one from Yu-gi-oh for a bunch of the characters)

5. 







			
				Henry said:
			
		

> You do have some cartoons with anime-like features (Futurama and Simpsons being two examples), the creator Groening does not go out of his way to inject unrealistic actions on the part of the characters. If Futurama were done in true anime style, Leela would be jumping 15 feet in the air, with steam coming out of her ears, splay-legged, and eyes like pie-plates, every time Frye ticked her off.  Homer would be moving his mouth at twice the speed he was speaking when yelling at Bart, "Why you little!!!" As it is, a little cartoon action I can stand, but as I've grown up, my taste in "realism" in animated features has changed. The main reason I like Warner Brothers cartoons still? Nostalgia, more than anything, realizing that the actions were indeed axaggerated or simplified, and loving those humorous storylines in spite of the imagery.




That's nothing new. Children understand exaggerations easier. Also, it's not like you wanna see as a child, someone real-looking blown up by some TNT with all their insides spewed all around, do you?

6. (This one really isn't a point or anything, just an observation) My brother was watching Inuyasha one night, and I realized during the theme song as I overheard it, was that the singer sounded like a cross between William Hung and a drunk Japanese businessman.


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## beta-ray (Jun 5, 2004)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> My personal thoughts on the subject:
> 
> 5. That's nothing new. Children understand exaggerations easier. Also, it's not like you wanna see as a child, someone real-looking blown up by some TNT with all their insides spewed all around, do you?




It is also a point that it is easier to draw simplified characters (try drawing a complicated mecha like Zeta Gundam turning in 3D space... they did it... without computers!). Some of the wilder characteristics (eg. hair, thick lips, funny shaped noses) also help you to differentiate the characters from one another. Subtle emotions are often difficult to draw so exaggeration (and visual shortcuts) often helps to overcome that. For me, the simplified characters of Giant Robo HELPED to convey more action and expression than if they were too realistic.

I do know that Japanese animation tends to have a slower pace, I think often that is the mindset and cultrure of the creators. Lip synch is also not as important to the Japanese as it is to American animators, but I think it is unfair to say that the fast-talking with few lip movements is the fault of Japanese animation. Often it is the fault of the person(s) who translate the stuff over. Though stuff like speed racer had a poor frame count, I have seen enough Japanese animation to say that often the frame count much exceeds what is created by American animators (however few there are left).

I do have to say I like the computer generated stuff from companies outside of Japan. I thought Roughnecks was a really good series (I think that was US produced, though Sony was involved); as well as Reboot and Beast Wars (Canada).


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## mojo1701 (Jun 5, 2004)

beta-ray said:
			
		

> as well as Reboot and Beast Wars (Canada).




I hear that. Reboot (after it was dropped by the US stations that were broadcasting it, became much darker in tone, hence, the whole "web" thing)


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## Trainz (Jun 5, 2004)

I don't _hate_ the genre (anime), but I definitely despise the lazyness of the conception of many of them.

Good (that I saw): Akira, Mononoke, GitS.

Bad (that I saw): Escaflowne, Records of Lodoss War.

The two above, I watched ALL episodes because a friend lend them to me.

What I'm talking about is the frame per second flow. It is horrendous in many an anime. Just try it. For example, watch Escaflowne, and in a given scene, count the number of frames. Careful though: a static background with a slow moving (sliding) static foreground is really just two images drawn that are slowly being moved to create an illusion of movement.

While quite an efficient animation technique, Anime overuses it. In one instance, a 30 seconds sample had about only 8 drawn panels. That's INCLUDING the characters.

You draw a character's head with no mouth, then you draw an open mouth, then a closed mouth. Then you have the character give a 30 second dialogue by having the open mouth layer and closed mouth layer alternate, with the character's body being totally static. With background, that's about four images, two of which are very small.

I'm sorry, but I just can't condone such an "art" form. It's a lazy "dust in the eyes" inneficient medium. It frustrates me.

FYI, I have worked for one month as an "inker" for an animation (_The old lady and the Pigeons_). Got fed up and left, so you won't see my name in the credits. I inked about 100 layers, the total of which lasted about 15 seconds in the animation (we were 8 inkers, about as many drawers, and 3 background artists). To give you an idea...

Heh... I just went to check the clip in the link above, and the first time you see the cop, that's one of the sequences I inked ! I just also noticed that this movie won a lot of awards... maybe I should have stayed onboard dammit.

All that said, I'm curious about Cowboy Beebop (have the soundtrack, love it). Is the FPS flow bad ? If not, I'll watch it.

Another thing: the animation (live action) in Kill Bill 1 was *astounding*. I want to see more work by whoever did that (if it's as good), so any indication would be appreciated.


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## Impeesa (Jun 5, 2004)

Cowboy Bebop is good that way. It's been a while since I last watched it all, but I don't really recall any of those typical "shortcuts" being used. 

--Impeesa--


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## Corinth (Jun 6, 2004)

I take anime title-by-title, rejecting some and accepting some, as a rule.  When I toss something aside, it's usually due to one or more of the following traits: sophomoric in presentation, sophomoric in content, out of my demographic, out of my interest, or an utterly incompetant execution.

This means that my personal anime collection is very small: _Macross, Macross Plus, Bubblegum Crisis, Metropolis, Spirited Away, Princess Mononoke, Record of Lodoss War, Ghost in the Shell, Ninja Scroll, Gundam Wing, Mobile Suit Gundam: The 08th MS Team_.  Those are the titles that, so far, I like well enough that I bothered to buy copies instead of borrowing another's copy or watching it on TV.  _Cowboy Bebop_ will join that list soon enough.

There are other titles that I like--_Rurouni Kenshin_ being one of them, as well as (despite that whiny Amuro) _Mobile Suit Gundam_--but most don't do it for me; I'm not, as a rule, into the titles that feature (or are little more than excuses for) sexual comedy.  I dislike the long-running trend of teenaged protagonists with inexplicably high capabilities in whatever the important abilities are, and I dislike gratuitous stuff of any sort--anything that gets in the way of the central plot ought to be viciously and ruthlessly excised; this is why I like _Law & Order_--so even amongst those that I like I often have quibbles.

I treat anime like I would any other sort of film or television.  I would advise you folks to do the same.


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## WizarDru (Jun 6, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Another thing: the animation (live action) in Kill Bill 1 was *astounding*. I want to see more work by whoever did that (if it's as good), so any indication would be appreciated.



Unless I'm mistaken, the animation was done by Studio Madhouse, who has been around for years.  How good their work appears really depends on their budget.  

It's also not entirely fair to expect the same quality of animation from a weekly animated show compared against a major feature film.  Much of madhouse's work has been in films, such as Demon City Shinjuku or Ninja Scroll.  Bebop was a big budget show, whereas a show like Escaflowne just didn't have that kind of money to toss around.  The Escaflowne movie had much nicer animation, comparativley speaking.

Of course, I'm an old school anime fan, so I'm still more concerned with the story than the pretty pictures, especially when I remember how much crap animation was on when I was a kid, before it got farmed out to Asia on a regular basis.  I mean, Filmation wasn't exactly cranking out the gems, for example.  I still prefer the original Captain Harlock to the newer versions.


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## beta-ray (Jun 6, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Unless I'm mistaken, the animation was done by Studio Madhouse, who has been around for years.  How good their work appears really depends on their budget.




I didn't know what he meant by the live action animation (special effects?) done in Kill Bill (didn't see, I don't care much for Tarrantino)... but I believe the cel animation was done by Production IG.
http://www.productionig.com/English/96/~/Kill%20Bill/


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## reapersaurus (Jun 6, 2004)

A couple things:

1) I'm surprised when younger Anime fans don't know about the classics.
How can they be 'into' the newer (mostly wretched) anime and never have heard of Ninja Scroll, Project A-Ko, Akira, etc?
It seems that most of the recommended titles in this thread are older titles.
I'm wondering if the newer anime is significantly worse quality than older ones?

2) I've been a fan of anime since before you could find it - late 80's.
Yet I don't consider myself a big fan anymore simply because most of the stories _just don't cut it for me._
Anime stories are too commonly either baffling or just bad.
Almost universally they are not directed at my Western tastes (I don't blame them for that, it makes sense since they aren't Western).
However, what surprises me is how many Westerners say they looooove anime, when they obviously aren't knowledgable about the cultural references and Eastern plot/styles.

It's these kind of people that lead me to the dismissive observation that a LOT of American anime "fans" mainly like anime because it's different, and not mainstream. They THINK that if they like it a lot, than it will give them "cred".
This knee-jerk complimenting of Eastern entertainment really does piss me off.


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## takyris (Jun 6, 2004)

Hey, reaper,

I have a theory, and it's one I'd like to float by the anime-people -- but I *really* don't want it to sound like an attack on those people.  I don't think of it as one, but it's kind of awkward to say properly.

Something you said struck a chord with me -- the people who say that they appreciate it but don't know enough about Eastern culture to actually do so.

So here's the theory: fire away.

Some people in the United States have an inherent mental somethingorother that just plain prevents them from getting some elements of the culture in which they were raised.  One guy in my gaming group is like this.  If he were a character, either Wis or Cha would be his dump stat.  He's intelligent, he's even clever, and he is a *very* nice person, but on some level, he doesn't get human interaction here (and he's a native U.S. person).  He says inappropriate things -- not rude, just not exactly in-line with the conversation.  He doesn't pick up on social cues.

Because he doesn't really get American culture -- doesn't like much of its television, thinks most of U.S. movies are stupid because he doesn't appreciate the cultural area in which the movies are working -- he looks for entertainment that lacks the sensibilities of American culture.  He's a big anime fan.

My theory is that, as someone with an inherent inability to interact in an American cultural context, he enjoys anime not because it *has* an emphasis on Eastern cultural values, but because it *does not have* an emphasis on Western cultural values.  In other words, he likes it because, in his own mind, it's closer to what he is.  He's missing all kinds of Eastern cultural stuff watching anime, just like he misses all kinds of American cultural stuff watching American television, but because it's foreign enough that he wasn't raised with an intellectual recognition of the cultural tropes, he doesn't, on some level, realize that he's missing as much -- he's just happy that the show isn't bothering with that stuff that American audiences insist on all the time, that stuff he doesn't really appreciate.

If it sounds horrendously awkward for me to say this, it is -- because in the little pre-marital personality test I had to take, I'm an off-the-charts empath.  I soak in cultural and emotional stuff and get body-language pings all the time (as does my wife -- works well for us sometimes, is a pain other times).  It's difficult for me to understand what it would be like to lack the "social sense" that this guy seems to lack, and I'm wondering if that lack of social sense is what causes him to gravitate to anime -- to get an entertainment source that isn't hitting him over the head with all the cultural stuff he's been raised to *think* he should understand, which has to be, for him, as frustrating as giving a color-blind guy a book where every third word is written in red on a green background.

I'm *not* trying to suggest that all anime fans are this way.  Some folks obviously enjoy Eastern culture and really get a kick out of it.  Other people like the art.  But I'd be curious to hear if anyone sees an element of accuracy in anything I've said -- or at least tried to say.

And lemme say one more time -- I'm really *not* trying to say that this means that anime people are all maladjusted losers or anything.  That's often the stereotype that non-anime-lovers fling at anime-lovers, and heck, we've all heard enough gamer-geek stereotypes to be tired of those.  The guy in my gaming group is odd, and it's sometimes frustrating for me to have a conversation with him because of the verbal cues he misses (and the apparently inaccurate ones he sends out), but he's also a genuinely nice and decent guy.


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## WizarDru (Jun 6, 2004)

Honestly, takyris, I'm not really following you.  To carry the analogy, are you saying that D&D gamers enjoy D&D because they _don't_ enjoy traditional board games?  I'm sure there are some folks who might fit your pattern, but the same could be said for Star Trek.

In short, I think an American fan who doesn't get the references (and let's be honest, most non-Japanes fans had to LEARN them) may just be enjoying anime for it's tropes, stories and designs.  Is it so hard to believe that some folks just enjoy watching giant robots pummel each other, with a little teen angst thrown in?  Fist of the Northstar actually does have it's deep moments (honest), but sometimes you like to see someone get their ass kicked.  

It's escapist entertainment, mostly.  I enjoy Gungrave the same way the I enjoy the Sopranos...and I'm not too up on the mafia's cultural references either.  I didn't know what some of the phrases Tony Soprano used meant untli they defined them or someone told me...why should anime be any different?

I get what you're saying, I just think your making a connection that simply isn't there.


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## Mog Elffoe (Jun 6, 2004)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> 1) I'm surprised when younger Anime fans don't know about the classics.
> How can they be 'into' the newer (mostly wretched) anime and never have heard of Ninja Scroll, Project A-Ko, Akira, etc?
> It seems that most of the recommended titles in this thread are older titles.
> I'm wondering if the newer anime is significantly worse quality than older ones?




As far as the recommended titles on this list go I think it's more of a 'trickle-down' effect.  The older stuff has been around longer and has naturally had more time to be seen by more people.  There's plenty of new anime being released that's pretty good or even excellent (_RahXephon_, for example) but since it's so new it hasn't had a chance to get the same kind of saturation as the older stuff.

And as far as the newbies not having seen the 'classics'--well, they have to find out about these somehow, right?  That's why threads like the 'Top Five Anime Picks' one get created.  Folks want to find out what's good.  That's the main reason I check out the 'What are you reading this month' threads--I want to find out what the quality stuff out there is.


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## takyris (Jun 6, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I get what you're saying, I just think your making a connection that simply isn't there.




Fair enough, Wiz.  That's why I wanted to test the water with it -- to see if I was totally off.  I know, by that logic, I might just as well have said, "You know, I don't like tomatoes, and I don't like bananas either -- I wonder if people who *do* like tomatoes like bananas for some reason that's deeply connected to the reason that they like tomatoes..." 

(Er, for the record, I really don't like either tomatoes or bananas.)

Wouldn't have brought it up except for Reaper's comment about people watching it but not getting it.

Thanks.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 6, 2004)

Mog - I'm sure that is at least a contributory element to it.

Takyris - fascinating theory.
I don't have enough exposure to anime fans to conclude whether it's a valid theory or not, but it is awfully insightful nonetheless.

I will look for this in the future.


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## WizarDru (Jun 6, 2004)

takyris said:
			
		

> Wouldn't have brought it up except for Reaper's comment about people watching it but not getting it.
> 
> Thanks.



Well, like I say, I wouldn't say that there aren't some people that just might fall into that pattern...but I'd say the vast majority who may not be culturally informed just enjoy it for the genre material it is.  When I first saw Captain Harlock in Japanese, I didn't think much of the cultural subtexts...I just thought it was really cool that this guy was a Pirate, in space, with a giant spaceship with a skull and crossbones across the bow, and two fighters (one red, one blue)...and a really cool crew.

And to be honest, I've yet to see many American shows that I've connected to with as well as that.


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## dreaded_beast (Jun 6, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Well, like I say, I wouldn't say that there aren't some people that just might fall into that pattern...but I'd say the vast majority who may not be culturally informed just enjoy it for the genre material it is.




I agree.

There are many things that I enjoy and appreciate, even though I may not be "culturally aware". This spans anything from music to ethnic food.

I may not know about many of the cultural references and inuendo involved in a particular subject (let's take anime for example), but I don't think that prohibits me from appreciating anime as a whole. The more informed person may appreciate anime at a different level than I do, but I don't think my appreciation is any less sincere than the more informed person.

In my opinion (and hopefully not too offensive), it seems a bit elitist (sp?) to think that someone who hasn't done their "research" couldn't be sincere in their enjoyment and appreciation of anime.


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## reapersaurus (Jun 6, 2004)

dreaded beast - you're missing the point.
And so would anyone of countless people who may or may not feel personally assaulted enough to post, saying "Hey! I'm not like that!"

We're talking in generalities here - looking at it from a social perspective.
Not a personal one.
Please don't take personal offense when we're talking generally. That's a certain way to drag a thread into flames, etc.

It is a theoretical hypothesis, backed up by common-sensical psychology at best.

It's simple - if someone is a Westerner, hasn't studied much Eastern culture, doesn't have a person translating the cultural references, and in fact has a blindness to understanding cultural/literary/etc references, than that may explain why they might gravitate towards a medium where most Westerners are in the same boat he/she is.


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## dreaded_beast (Jun 6, 2004)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> It's simple - if someone is a Westerner, hasn't studied much Eastern culture, doesn't have a person translating the cultural references, and in fact has a blindness to understanding cultural/literary/etc references, than that may explain why they might gravitate towards a medium where most Westerners are in the same boat he/she is.




I apologize if I offended you, since that wasn't my intention. I was just stating an opinion that I felt based on my understanding of the previous posts.

However, I may have missed the point of your original post, based on the quote above. It seems like an interesting theory.

I just try an think of it as people being people. There is no accounting for taste.


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## Greatwyrm (Jun 7, 2004)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> A couple things:
> 
> 1) I'm surprised when younger Anime fans don't know about the classics.
> How can they be 'into' the newer (mostly wretched) anime and never have heard of Ninja Scroll, Project A-Ko, Akira, etc?




Stuff like that does happen.  Well, I had run D&D and/or Cyberpunk for 8 years before I got around to reading The Hobbit, LotR, or Neuromancer.


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## WizarDru (Jun 7, 2004)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> It's simple - if someone is a Westerner, hasn't studied much Eastern culture, doesn't have a person translating the cultural references, and in fact has a blindness to understanding cultural/literary/etc references, than that may explain why they might gravitate towards a medium where most Westerners are in the same boat he/she is.



 But a lot of anime doesn't require that level of subtext to work, and much of it actually contains enough western references that if it's dubbed into English, you wouldn't really notice.

 Consider Witch Hunter Robin, for example.  With a few name changes, if you were to ignore that all of the signs were in Japanese, you could readily ignore all the culutural subtext of Japanese society quite easily.  There is very little in the show that forces the viewer to directly address the nature of Japanese society.  The same could be said for shows like Trigun, Cowboy Bebop, the various Gundams, Akira and most of the other shows listed above.

 I mean, I appreciate Gantz for the same reason that I appreciate the Sopranos...it's an interesting character study/fantasy that I'd never want to find myself on the inside of, but love watching the characters who are.  I enjoy John Woo's "The Killer" or Gungrave for the same reason that I enjoy "The Matrix", "Die Hard" and "The Terminator"...lots of action, and sometimes unbelievable stunts or gunplay.  The cultural subtext isn't necessary to appreciate it, and I suspect that most are drawn to it for it's root entertainment value.

 If I don't appreciate what a big deal it is for a samurai to cut off his own top-knot, I still see the reaction of everyone around him when he does it.   

 Another thing to consider is that Anime is heaviily influenced by American animation, delivery and iconography.  That they've branched into their own style shouldn't blind foks to the fact that many of anime's idioscyncracies developed from an american/western visual language.


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