# Ms Marvel (spoilers)



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 8, 2022)

Tonight is the night for the debut of Ms Marvel on Disney+! There is a lot of positive buzz about this one so far, especially about the inclusiveness of it. Also, up until yesterday or today, the show was given a TV-PG rating, but some sites are now saying it has been bumped up to TV-14, so I guess we will see which it is when it airs. This one will also be much more connected into the MCU than Moon Knight was, so lots of easter eggs should be expected.


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2022)

Oh is it tonight! Im expecting it to be focussed at a younger demographic but Im gonna give it a watch and judge it then 

- I even went and watched the Disney Channels _*Ultra Violet & Black Scorpion *_to prep myself


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## Davies (Jun 8, 2022)

... gonna be a busy night.


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## trappedslider (Jun 8, 2022)

There's a mid-credits scene


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2022)

How many Gen-Z, Pakistani and Marvel geek memes can you pack into a first episode?
It was what I expected, the comedy made me laugh, though the ethnic teen themes may be a bit too thick

overall I really liked it


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## pukunui (Jun 8, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> How many Gen-A, Pakistani and Marvel geek memes can you pack into a first episode?
> It was what I expected, the comedy made me laugh, though the ethnic teen themes may be a bit too thick
> 
> overall I really liked it



Do you mean Gen Z? The kids of Gen A are all under 10, whereas Gen Z is supposed to be between 10 and 25 at the moment.


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Do you mean Gen Z? The kids of Gen A are all under 10, whereas Gen Z is supposed to be between 10 and 25 at the moment.



Yeah that, I keep getting confused about just what Gen we’re in now


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## pukunui (Jun 8, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah that, I keep getting confused about just what Gen where in now



My daughters are all Gen Z, whereas I’m one of the first Millennials at 41. (Everyone thinks we’re still in our 20s but no, we’re in our 30s and 40s now.)


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2022)

pukunui said:


> My daughters are all Gen Z, whereas I’m one of the first Millennials at 41. (Everyone thinks we’re still in our 20s but no, we’re in our 30s and 40s now.)



Heh, yeah I turned 50 this year so its getting harder to keep up lol. It still freaks me out knowing that my eldest nephews daughters are now teenagers!


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 8, 2022)

Trust-A-Bro moving van from Hawkeye in the end-credits, so is this set a few months before the Hawkeyes beat them all up?


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## John R Davis (Jun 8, 2022)

I enjoyed it . Very snappy pace.

Really liked the dad


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## trappedslider (Jun 8, 2022)

Ms. Marvel 's Iman Vellani Only Auditioned for the Show Because She 'Wanted to Meet People at Marvel'
					

Iman Vellani tells PEOPLE in this week’s issue that she "didn’t want to be an actor" before landing the part of Kamala Khan in Ms. Marvel and The Marvels




					www.yahoo.com
				




"I was in my friend's driveway and opened my phone. And lo and behold, [Marvel Studios President] Kevin Feige was there," she says. "I was freaking out, and they told me I got the part."

She continues, "I went back in the car and my friends were like, 'So what happened? Did you win the lottery or something?' I was like, 'Basically.' And I told them everything. And then we got burritos."


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## Blue (Jun 8, 2022)

Liked it.  Anyone know the number of episodes?

The parents and "aunties" could have been in a show from when I was a kid - is this an outdated stereotype or is it still how things can be?

Much like D+'s Turning Red, I feel the mom is strict because that's how she's been taught to love, not in an antagonistic sort of way.  And I liked the dad, including when he kind of felt betrayed after getting enthusiastic to do something with his daugther even if it wasn't his interests.

The science level of the friend seems too high until you realize that we have Tony Starks and Hank Pyms and Peter Parkers in the universe.  But that does put him as potentially near the super-tech path.

I liked the popular girl Zoe had a closeted geek side.  Or at least that's how I'm reading it.  At AvengerCon when talking to KK she seemed really to be a fanby.


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## Davies (Jun 8, 2022)

Blue said:


> Liked it.  Anyone know the number of episodes?



Six.


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2022)

Blue said:


> Liked it.  Anyone know the number of episodes?
> 
> The parents and "aunties" could have been in a show from when I was a kid - is this an outdated stereotype or is it still how things can be?
> 
> Much like D+'s Turning Red, I feel the mom is strict because that's how she's been taught to love, not in an antagonistic sort of way.  And I liked the dad, including when he kind of felt betrayed after getting enthusiastic to do something with his daugther even if it wasn't his interests.



yeah I liked the humour of Bara Hulk and Choti Hulk and the emotion of the dads sad eyes when Kamala rejected them.
the “aunties” dynamic kept reminding me of The Kumars at Number 42 - of course that was suppose to be exaggerated for comedy


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## Tonguez (Jun 8, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Trust-A-Bro moving van from Hawkeye in the end-credits, so is this set a few months before the Hawkeyes beat them all up?



the Sloth Baby animation has Hawkeye in his purple suit so it might be afterwards?


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## Blue (Jun 8, 2022)

On a tangent, I was low key ecstatic that Ant-Man was treated seriously by fans, even having a large statue at AvengerCon.  When teamed with other heroes he's so often the butt monkey even when he does good.  While really his rise from everyman-in-a-bad-spot to achieve the super heroic rivals that of Steve Rogers.

So the fact that while most of the big name heroes don't treat him too seriously (except maybe Sam Wilson), that the fans do is pretty cool.


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## DeviousQuail (Jun 8, 2022)

It was pretty good. Very classic teen in high school TV show vibes that were done well. It's certainly aimed at younger audiences but it didn't feel like it was pandering to younger people at the expense of older folks.

The family interactions were a highlight. Her best friend clearly has a level or two of artificer but it wasn't anything crazy. Didn't get too much in the way of powers but they sure do look interesting. Lastly, the way they handled the day dreaming was fun and the text convo felt right out of Into the Spiderverse. Very cool seeing that in live action.

The only kinda dumb thing was the physics of the Ant-man helmet as it was crashing around. It reminded me of physics class when they tell you to treat the object as round and ignore friction. They should also check Frenemy Girl for a concussion and internal bleeding because she got Mjolnired real good.


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## trappedslider (Jun 8, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> The only kinda dumb thing was the physics of the Ant-man helmet as it was crashing around. It reminded me of physics class when they tell you to treat the object as round and ignore friction. They should also check Frenemy Girl for a concussion and internal bleeding because she got Mjolnired real good.



proof that even after The Blip high schoolers still get hammered 

I'll show myself out


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## MarkB (Jun 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> proof that even after The Blip high schoolers still get hammered



And that Ant-Man's head is worthy.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 8, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> she got Mjolnired real good.




I know a lot of women, and some men, who would love to get Mjolnired.  nudge nudge wink wink*


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## Hex08 (Jun 9, 2022)

I really wasn't expecting to like the show but it was better than I thought. I didn't care for the parents though. The serious parents who try to dissuade their kid from embracing their artistic tendencies fell flat for me. My only other issue was the FX for Kamala's powers, it just looked off to me.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jun 9, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I really wasn't expecting to like the show but it was better than I thought. I didn't care for the parents though. The serious parents who try to dissuade their kid from embracing their artistic tendencies fell flat for me. My only other issue was the FX for Kamala's powers, the just looked off to me.



Yeah, this show is better than I was expecting. As was said earlier, the only part I cringed at was the whole Ant-Man head and giant Mjölnir scene. 

However, about the parents, I think that's the point. You're not supposed to like them. Although I did feel kind of bad for the father after he dressed up as the Hulk.


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## pukunui (Jun 9, 2022)

I enjoyed it. My 16 year-old thinks it’s aimed at younger kids, even though the main character is 16 and going through similar life stages (like learning how to drive). She said it was “too simple and cliché” although she liked the inclusivity of it. I haven’t polled my younger two yet.

EDIT: Who were those people in the credits scene? The man looked like he was wearing a cop badge.


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## Mezuka (Jun 9, 2022)

16 year old girl caught in household with traditional family values of the 50s survives by using her imagination. The mother knows the granny's secret. Probably tried being a super at a young age. Or hates her mother for never being there because she was out saving the world. 

Not for me.


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## pukunui (Jun 9, 2022)

OK so my 10 yo and almost 14 yo both enjoyed the first episode but didn't have as much to say about it as their oldest sister did.

It would appear that in my household at least, _WandaVision_, _Hawkeye_, and _Moon Knight _are the three best MCU shows so far. _Loki _gets an honorable mention. We'll have to wait and see where this one sits once it's finished.


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## Blue (Jun 9, 2022)

I'm running a Masks: A New Generation game, it's a PbtA game about teen super teams.  What we've seen from this show would fit right in.  One of the playbooks is The Janus, who is very much trying to balance the secret and heroic aspects of their life.  And the first episode of Ms. Marvel hit that right on.  I haven't read the comics, but watching the 5 minute D+ intro to the show says that in the comics she needs to deal with a lot of teen-aged issues, like dating and grades and such - that very much fits Masks.

Another playbook which may be applicable is The Nova, about someone who has great power but has issues controlling it and is sometimes a menace or causes collateral damage because of that.


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## Hex08 (Jun 9, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah, this show is better than I was expecting. As was said earlier, the only part I cringed at was the whole Ant-Man head and giant Mjölnir scene.
> 
> However, about the parents, I think that's the point. You're not supposed to like them. Although I did feel kind of bad for the father after he dressed up as the Hulk.



It wasn't so much that I didn't like them, it was more that it's a really old trope that just seemed lazy to me.


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## Blue (Jun 9, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> It wasn't so much that I didn't like them, it was more that it's a really old trope that just seemed lazy to me.



It's a very similar trope used in D+'s Turning Red, which is also recent.  In Turning Red I've personally experienced helicopter parents who meet that stereotype.  I wonder if these stereotypes are also around for certain cultures, as opposed to only assigning them to 50s Americana.


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## Tonguez (Jun 9, 2022)

Blue said:


> It's a very similar trope used in D+'s Turning Red, which is also recent.  In Turning Red I've personally experienced helicopter parents who meet that stereotype.  I wonder if these stereotypes are also around for certain cultures, as opposed to only assigning them to 50s Americana.




I did wonder about that too, and saw an interview where the Ms Marvel creator Sana Amanat (born 1982) said she drew her inspiration from her own life as a Pakistani American teenager in the 90s. The show writer Bisha  Ali was born 1989 (so now 33) - so yeah maybe the Pakistani mother trope is 20 -30 years old because the writers are drawing on their memories rather than whats contemporary in 2022

but I dunno, Im not a Pakistani American mother


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## Mezuka (Jun 9, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I did wonder about that too, and saw an interview where the Ms Marvel creator Sana Amanat (born 1982) said she drew her inspiration from her own life as a Pakistani American teenager in the 90s. The show writer Bisha  Ali was born 1989 (so now 33) - so yeah maybe the Pakistani mother trope is 20 -30 years old because the writers are drawing on their memories rather than whats contemporary in 2022
> 
> but I dunno, Im not a Pakistani American mother



They are not far off the mark IMHO. There is a lot of conservatism still today in Pakistani and Indian families. We see many examples in the International news. Just a few weeks ago parents in India are sewing their son because he has not given them a grandson after 5 (?) years. They want the cost of the marriage reimbursed IIRC. The wife is a businesswoman she doesn't want kids.

In fact, I would say conservatism is how most of the world's population lives today.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 9, 2022)

Blue said:


> It's a very similar trope used in D+'s Turning Red, which is also recent.  In Turning Red I've personally experienced helicopter parents who meet that stereotype.  I wonder if these stereotypes are also around for certain cultures, as opposed to only assigning them to 50s Americana.



I'm a teacher, I see plenty of helicopter parents. I don't know about 1950s America, but it's very common in 2020s London.


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## billd91 (Jun 9, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> It wasn't so much that I didn't like them, it was more that it's a really old trope that just seemed lazy to me.



Is it a trope if it's extrapolated from the writer's experiences? 
From a meta perspective, sure, it's a trope. We recognize the somewhat overbearing parents and can probably look at examples around us in other media and our personal lives. But from an individual work in which an author has invested some of themselves? I'm not entirely sure I'd be very keen on having my life's truths reduced to being "lazy tropes".


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Jun 9, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> It wasn't so much that I didn't like them, it was more that it's a really old trope that just seemed lazy to me.



I saw a lot of Islamic people on Reddit complaining that the parents weren't strict enough. So I'm fine with the trope, even if it has been a bit overdone in a lot of media. It still is relevant and apparently fairly accurate today. 

However, it being accurate doesn't mean that it's enjoyable to watch. So I understand still if the fact that it's accurate still isn't compelling to you.


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## Mezuka (Jun 9, 2022)

My wife and I enjoyed *Stargirl* season one on Netflix if you are looking for a comparable.


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## p_johnston (Jun 10, 2022)

So far it seems really fun. First thought is that someone making this really liked The Mitchells vs the Machines (which isn't a criticism). Looking forward to the rest of the series to see if it holds up.


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## Hex08 (Jun 10, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Is it a trope if it's extrapolated from the writer's experiences?
> From a meta perspective, sure, it's a trope. We recognize the somewhat overbearing parents and can probably look at examples around us in other media and our personal lives. But from an individual work in which an author has invested some of themselves? I'm not entirely sure I'd be very keen on having my life's truths reduced to being "lazy tropes".



It's only the first episode so we will see what changes but if you are willing to put your life's truths on a TV show then expect it to be reduced. TV/movies aren't about realism, this is fictionalized TV and not real life. Most viewers aren't going to read interviews by the writer and understand that the characters are based on the writer's life experiences, nor should they be expected to.

Don't misinterpret what I said, I enjoyed the show. I just found the parents to be caricatures rather than fully realized characters, especially the mother. I'm not even saying that helicopter parents don't exist but the parents, mom especially, had all of the dimension of a single point on a graph. If your experience watching it was different then that is fine but I found them boring.


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## pukunui (Jun 10, 2022)

I suppose we’ll eventually find out about those creepy purple people in the otherworld Kamala first went into after gaining her powers, right?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 10, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I saw a lot of Islamic people on Reddit complaining that the parents weren't strict enough.



Indeed, I didn't think they were particularly strict. She was allowed to attend a mixed school, spend free time with a male friend, go out on her own, spend time not studying and choose her own career path.


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## pukunui (Jun 10, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Indeed, I didn't think they were particularly strict. She was allowed to attend a mixed school, spend free time with a male friend, go out on her own, spend time not studying and choose her own career path.



I got the sense that they were quite liberal, especially since the dad even chastises his adult son for praying too much.


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## Tonguez (Jun 10, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I suppose we’ll eventually find out about those creepy purple people in the otherworld Kamala first went into after gaining her powers, right?



Yeah good point, since they changed her powers we have no real precedent for her flip, except for Purple glow has been color of the spirit planes and Dark Magic. Would they invoke the Djinn in a strongly Islam leaning show?
Or is it Kree/Skrull tech?

Who is Grandma?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 10, 2022)

Djinn are mentioned a couple of times.


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## pukunui (Jun 10, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Djinn are mentioned a couple of times.



In the comics? I don't recall hearing anyone mention them in the episode.


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## trappedslider (Jun 10, 2022)

pukunui said:


> In the comics? I don't recall hearing anyone mention them in the episode.



Her brother teases her about still being afraid of one before tossing her stuffed sloth at her.


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## Tonguez (Jun 10, 2022)

pukunui said:


> In the comics? I don't recall hearing anyone mention them in the episode.



What trapperslidet said


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## pukunui (Jun 10, 2022)

Oh! I must have misheard them!


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## trappedslider (Jun 10, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Oh! I must have misheard them!



I always have subtitles on due to not fully understanding what people say irl, and it also helps catch things others may have missed.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 10, 2022)

pukunui said:


> In the comics? I don't recall hearing anyone mention them in the episode.



No, TV.


trappedslider said:


> Her brother teases her about still being afraid of one before tossing her stuffed sloth at her.



And I'm pretty sure that was the second time djinn where mentioned, although I would have to rewatch to find the other.

Chekhov's Genie?


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## trappedslider (Jun 11, 2022)

she's a total irl fan girl









						‘Ms. Marvel’ Star Iman Vellani Discusses Her Iron Man Shrine and Gaming With Thor
					

Iman Vellani’s MCU fandom isn’t just another press tour talking point; she’s the genuine article. Vellani, who plays Pakistani-American teenager Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel on Disney+’s Ms. Marvel, not only has an Iron Man shrine in her childhood bedroom, but she also has a knowledge base that...




					www.yahoo.com


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## Thomas Shey (Jun 12, 2022)

Blue said:


> The science level of the friend seems too high until you realize that we have Tony Starks and Hank Pyms and Peter Parkers in the universe.  But that does put him as potentially near the super-tech path.




He's clearly set up to be her Guy In The Chair.


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## MarkB (Jun 12, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> He's clearly set up to be her Guy In The Chair.



Hopefully. I got slight Evil Nemesis vibes from him.


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## billd91 (Jun 13, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I got the sense that they were quite liberal, especially since the dad even chastises his adult son for praying too much.



I believe the implication in the comics is that he prays a lot and focuses on his religion rather than put in the effort to find a job... from his parents' perspective.


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## pukunui (Jun 13, 2022)

billd91 said:


> I believe the implication in the comics is that he prays a lot and focuses on his religion rather than put in the effort to find a job... from his parents' perspective.



Ah. OK. I haven’t read the comics.


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## FitzTheRuke (Jun 13, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> And I'm pretty sure that was the second time djinn where mentioned, although I would have to rewatch to find the other.




Her Dad said something about there being a djinn in the machine when the homemade Alexa was acting up.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 13, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Her Dad said something about there being a djinn in the machine when the homemade Alexa was acting up.



That was it!


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## Tonguez (Jun 15, 2022)

IlluminAunties! Lol

I really enjoyed this episode, it really got lots of story beats laid down and they didnt lay on the cliches like last week.
the humour was great without being corny and the mystery of Kamals grandmother compelling (and they tie in the Partition of India).

I think that they should have done this as episode 1 a ‘slice of life’ peice to introduce the story, then done last weeks episode in flashback, but thats me

And who is Kamrans mother?


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## Bolares (Jun 15, 2022)

About Bruno... In the comics he's a genius. He even goes to wakanda to study abroad (I don't think this is a spoiler). He gives of a vibe of superhero level genius in the making.


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## MarkB (Jun 15, 2022)

This is currently feeling a little too Peter-Parker-before-uncle-Ben-dies to me. And the rescue stretched my suspension of disbelief a bit - she seriously managed to get out of sight, get changed into that costume and get up onto a roof before anyone could climb up the inside of that building?


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## Ryujin (Jun 15, 2022)

MarkB said:


> This is currently feeling a little too Peter-Parker-before-uncle-Ben-dies to me. And the rescue stretched my suspension of disbelief a bit - she seriously managed to get out of sight, get changed into that costume and get up onto a roof before anyone could climb up the inside of that building?



Everyone was too busy doing what they do these days; using their phones to post the event to social media.

I'm really enjoying this. While it's set in New Jersey, so much of it rings true to what I saw from my friends growing up. Up until grade 3 I lived in one of the most ethnically diverse areas of Toronto and then moved here to Brampton, which was mostly White, but over the last 50 years has become 43% South Asian.


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## Aeson (Jun 15, 2022)

My mom thought Kamala was Hispanic. When I told her she is Pakistani Muslim, my mom asked why do they have to put Muslims in everything.  "They're everywhere. They're all over at work."  I was really disappointed and stopped talking to her about the show.

I enjoyed it. I found the character quirky, and charming. I liked the visuals.


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## pukunui (Jun 16, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> And who is Kamrans mother?



That is the mystery, isn't it? And it makes me suspect that Kamran has been faking his attraction to Kamala in order to get her "on side". Poor Kamala. He was a bit too good to be true, though.

I thought the bit where she goes into school with more confidence was going to be a dream sequence. I'm glad that it wasn't.

Do we think the purple people with the glowing eyes are djinn? Or is Kamran's mother a djinn?

Is Bruno going to ditch Kamala and go to Caltech? That was obviously his main reason for being reluctant.

Is the adult that both Kamala and Bruno have gone to see the school principal or the school guidance/career counsellor or what? It's not clear to me what role he has at the school.

Nakia is pretty cool. Obviously super wealthy. Versace shoes? I like how she guilt-tripped Kamala's dad into voting for her. Is he actually her uncle or is that just a term of respect? (Like are Kamala and Nakia cousins or just friends?)

I finally figured out who the "cops" were! They're Department of Damage Control officers. They obviously think Kamala has stolen or acquired an artifact from the Avengers compound or something.


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## MarkB (Jun 16, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I finally figured out who the "cops" were! They're Department of Damage Control officers. They obviously think Kamala has stolen or acquired an artifact from the Avengers compound or something.



The male one was also in Spider-Man No Way Home. They seem to have broadened their remit to something like "FBI for supers".


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## pukunui (Jun 16, 2022)

MarkB said:


> The male one was also in Spider-Man No Way Home. They seem to have broadened their remit to something like "FBI for supers".



Ah OK. I didn't recognize him.

Could the Department of Damage Control be the new SHIELD?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 16, 2022)

pukunui said:


> That is the mystery, isn't it? And it makes me suspect that Kamran has been faking his attraction to Kamala in order to get her "on side". Poor Kamala. He was a bit too good to be true, though.






Spoiler



In the comic books, he is an Inhuman, like Kamala, and works for an evil organization, who was sent to try and recruit her, hence the "hot guy" being interested only in the "nerdy girl".





> I thought the bit where she goes into school with more confidence was going to be a dream sequence. I'm glad that it wasn't.




I think at some of it was just in her head, like later when she was dancing around in her house after getting home from school.



> Do we think the purple people with the glowing eyes are djinn? Or is Kamran's mother a djinn?




More likely Kree. The MCU does not have the Inhumans or the Terrigen mist as canon, though that is what the comic books and Agents of SHIELD used, so there are no Inhuman genes to activate. Most likely, of what I have read, is she has Kree blood/DNA in her. Or maybe they will make her the first mutant of the MCU. After all, the armband activated something that was latent in her genetics, and isn't that the basics for a mutant too, something activates their inborn mutation?


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## Tonguez (Jun 16, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I think at some of it was just in her head, like later when she was dancing around in her house after getting home from school.
> 
> More likely Kree. The MCU does not have the Inhumans or the Terrigen mist as canon, though that is what the comic books and Agents of SHIELD used, so there are no Inhuman genes to activate. Most likely, of what I have read, is she has Kree blood/DNA in her. Or maybe they will make her the first mutant of the MCU. After all, the armband activated something that was latent in her genetics, and isn't that the basics for a mutant too, something activates their inborn mutation?




Yeah Kamala not being Inhuman means the whole backstory has changed so we really have nothing but speculation to go on. That helps keep this mystery interesting - are they tying in Kree-tech or is it something entirely new (especially as we have a multiverse to draw on). 
Would they go as far as linking Jinn to Kree?





pukunui said:


> Is the adult that both Kamala and Bruno have gone to see the school principal or the school guidance/career counsellor or what? It's not clear to me what role he has at the school



Guidance counsellor

.







> Nakia is pretty cool. Obviously super wealthy. Versace shoes? I like how she guilt-tripped Kamala's dad into voting for her. Is he actually her uncle or is that just a term of respect? (Like are Kamala and Nakia cousins or just friends?)




Nakia is Turkish and a close friend of Kamala but not a blood relative. Uncle and Aunty are apparently terms of respect in their community



> I finally figured out who the "cops" were! They're Department of Damage Control officers. They obviously think Kamala has stolen or acquired an artifact from the Avengers compound or something.




Damage Control were first commissioned to salvage Chitauri tech and “other exotic materials” then after the blip their remit expanded to investigating enhanced individuals - like Spiderman and now NightLight.

Im suprised Disney allowed the whole FBI south asian/muslim surveilance discussion - unless we really are going to see persecution of Mutants introduced soon (could be an interesting She-Hulk hook)


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## pukunui (Jun 16, 2022)

A Kree connection could help tie the show in more with _The Marvels_, which I expect will have an interstellar aspect to it like _Captain Marvel _did.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 16, 2022)

pukunui said:


> That is the mystery, isn't it? And it makes me suspect that Kamran has been faking his attraction to Kamala in order to get her "on side". Poor Kamala. He was a bit too good to be true, though.
> 
> I thought the bit where she goes into school with more confidence was going to be a dream sequence. I'm glad that it wasn't.
> 
> Do we think the purple people with the glowing eyes are djinn? Or is Kamran's mother a djinn?



I got the impression Kamran's mother was the same person as Kamala's great gran. Which would accidently make the story she told her brother not a complete lie.

I need to check on the Kamran actor, his London accent sounded more authentic than Oscar Isaac's. _Edit: yes, he is from London._


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 16, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I got the impression Kamran's mother was the same person as Kamala's great gran. Which would accidently make the story she told her brother not a complete lie.




No, while Kamran's mother is the woman who has twice appeared in a vision to Kamala, she is not her great-grandmother. Her name is Najma, while the other is Aisha. Plus, as weird a source as it sounds, a Funko Pop set for the show was previewed recently that includes separate Pops for the two characters, making them two different people.


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## Ryujin (Jun 16, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> No, while Kamran's mother is the woman who has twice appeared in a vision to Kamala, she is not her great-grandmother. Her name is Najma, while the other is Aisha. Plus, as weird a source as it sounds, a Funko Pop set for the show was previewed recently that includes separate Pops for the two characters, making them two different people.



Given how many times plot and character information is accidentally released in Funko and action figure advertising, I'd say that's a great source.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 16, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I got the impression Kamran's mother was the same person as Kamala's great gran. Which would accidently make the story she told her brother not a complete lie.




That would make Kamran her great uncle, which is a bit eew - but Funko seems to have had the last word


----------



## billd91 (Jun 16, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah Kamala not being Inhuman means the whole backstory has changed so we really have nothing but speculation to go on.



Indeed. I am sad that it means no Lockjaw, my favorite Inhuman.


----------



## trappedslider (Jun 16, 2022)

Ms. Marvel's Iman Vellani Chastised by Kevin Feige for Watching WandaVision on Her Phone
					

Iman Vellani has already shown she's just as big of a fan of the Marvel Cinematic Universe as [...]




					comicbook.com


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 16, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Indeed. I am sad that it means no Lockjaw, my favorite Inhuman.



Apparently Vellani requested a Lockjaw cameo, but didnt get it, though maybe season 2. The CGI design is already done if they ever do it


----------



## trappedslider (Jun 17, 2022)

So, that was cool depicting the  "wudu" is a tradition that involves washing one's hands, face and feet before prayers. I did not know about that or the fact that there's a Board.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 19, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Is he actually her uncle or is that just a term of respect? (Like are Kamala and Nakia cousins or just friends?)



My impression is that "uncle" and "auntie" basically means "older community member of whom you are not a direct descendant". I believe it used to be fairly common in Scandinavia as well, though it has fallen out of favor in recent generations.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jun 19, 2022)

Staffan said:


> My impression is that "uncle" and "auntie" basically means "older community member of whom you are not a direct descendant". I believe it used to be fairly common in Scandinavia as well, though it has fallen out of favor in recent generations.




My impression is its a not uncommon in a number of cultures.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 19, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> My impression is its a not uncommon in a number of cultures.



Yeah pretty much standard in my culture, even schoolteachers are addressed using the same terms in our native language


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 20, 2022)

Well, the kids of single mothers have a lot of uncles, and maybe some extra aunts too.


----------



## pukunui (Jun 20, 2022)

Yeah, that's why I asked - I wasn't sure if they were actually related or it was just a term of respect / endearment. Could've gone either way, and I hadn't quite grokked that Nakia and Kamala were just friends and not cousins at that point.


----------



## embee (Jun 20, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> So, that was cool depicting the  "wudu" is a tradition that involves washing one's hands, face and feet before prayers. I did not know about that or the fact that there's a Board.



I didn't know that Muslims too have ritual washing but that doesn't surprise me in the least. Judaism also has ritual washing and, given that Judaism and Islam both hold so many of the same commandments and prohibitions, it's quite understandable. 

I'd be more surprised if there wasn't a Board. Houses of worship do not just exist in some magical space outside of secular concerns. They have all sorts of budgetary and management concerns that every other business concern has. Having just finished my 6th year on my temple's Board, concerns run the gamut from how to pay the mortgage (yes, there are mortgages on the buildings), costs of security, revenue streams and donation drives, religious school enrollment levels, employment and staffing, and interfaith efforts. 

The only unrealistic aspect of that is that there would be an election for it. I spent three hours twice a month in Board meetings going through PowerPoints and spreadsheets, in addition to the retreats and subcommittee meetings about revamping the dues structure. It is boring and tedious.


----------



## embee (Jun 20, 2022)

I loved how simply unapologetically Muslim the episode was. I, for one, thoroughly enjoyed an episode devoted to her home, school, temple life balance.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jun 20, 2022)

embee said:


> I didn't know that Muslims too have ritual washing but that doesn't surprise me in the least. Judaism also has ritual washing and, given that Judaism and Islam both hold so many of the same commandments and prohibitions, it's quite understandable.
> 
> I'd be more surprised if there wasn't a Board. Houses of worship do not just exist in some magical space outside of secular concerns. They have all sorts of budgetary and management concerns that every other business concern has. Having just finished my 6th year on my temple's Board, concerns run the gamut from how to pay the mortgage (yes, there are mortgages on the buildings), costs of security, revenue streams and donation drives, religious school enrollment levels, employment and staffing, and interfaith efforts.
> 
> The only unrealistic aspect of that is that there would be an election for it. I spent three hours twice a month in Board meetings going through PowerPoints and spreadsheets, in addition to the retreats and subcommittee meetings about revamping the dues structure. It is boring and tedious.



Some folk might find it surprising because certain Christian denominations (e.g. Roman Catholic, Church of England) are hierarchical, with such management issues being dictated from above.  I think such hierarchies are forbidden in Islam.


----------



## trappedslider (Jun 20, 2022)

embee said:


> I didn't know that Muslims too have ritual washing but that doesn't surprise me in the least. Judaism also has ritual washing and, given that Judaism and Islam both hold so many of the same commandments and prohibitions, it's quite understandable.
> 
> I'd be more surprised if there wasn't a Board. Houses of worship do not just exist in some magical space outside of secular concerns. They have all sorts of budgetary and management concerns that every other business concern has. Having just finished my 6th year on my temple's Board, concerns run the gamut from how to pay the mortgage (yes, there are mortgages on the buildings), costs of security, revenue streams and donation drives, religious school enrollment levels, employment and staffing, and interfaith efforts.
> 
> The only unrealistic aspect of that is that there would be an election for it. I spent three hours twice a month in Board meetings going through PowerPoints and spreadsheets, in addition to the retreats and subcommittee meetings about revamping the dues structure. It is boring and tedious.



Well, I'm LDS (Mormon), so the board thing at that level surprised me, and I looked it up: elections are a thing. google link mosque board election - Google Search


----------



## Janx (Jun 20, 2022)

The whole uncles/aunties was pretty obvious as a cultural thing. Do people really struggle with recognizing cultural elements?

Kamran was obviously too good to be true.

Naks is mighty. Vote for her.

Poor Bruno. Unrequited love is a pickle. We shouldn't talk about him.

I suspect some backlash from the kid rescue because she paused to SuperheroLanding(TM) and then might appear from below to be dropping the kid hard.  Folks won't know she's having trouble. Somebody's always looking for a negative take.

I assume Ashia was part of a super hero team from back home and hope that Kamala can clear her reputation with her mom.

This is the 2nd time I've seen Partition come up on TV. The first being the current Doctor's show a season or so back.


----------



## embee (Jun 20, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Well, I'm LDS (Mormon), so the board thing at that level surprised me, and I looked it up: elections are a thing. google link mosque board election - Google Search



I just meant that it can be hard finding people to volunteer. 

At our temple, there's a 3rd Vice President, a 2nd VP, a 1st VP, a President, an Immediate Past President, and a Past President. Each one leads to the next. So agreeing to be 3rd Vice President is actually agreeing to a 12 year commitment to the Board. Which is why we went through 7 candidates for 3rd Vice President before finding someone with Board experience who would do it, and then only with stipulations. 

That said, if someone like Nakia wanted to join the Board at my shul, we'd jump at the offer. One of the considerations for the Board is that everyone is represented. So the plotline about how the women of the mosque are treated (their facilities being underfunded) rings pretty true. I also liked the part where the imam and Nakia had their exchange through the barrier. In Orthodox Judaism, there is the mechitza, for a similar reason (paternalistic modesty so that the menfolk can focus on their prayers without the distraction of women). 

As said, I found the entire episode wonderful. I liked that the focus was less on bog-standard newfound powers and rather on developing three-dimensional side characters who exist separate from the main character.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jun 21, 2022)

I quite enjoyed the first two episodes. I went into it expecting it to be too kiddy, but the cool visual style, really cool main lead, and very infectious energy will keep me watching.


----------



## trappedslider (Jun 22, 2022)

Ms Marvel star didn't expect to be "main character" in The Marvels
					

Kamala Khan is heading to the big screen.




					www.digitalspy.com
				




The more i read about her the more I fall for her 
"She's the most amazing, tiny human ever and I love her," she said about Xochitl Gomez


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 22, 2022)

wow that certainly escalated things and they’ve gone real Marvel deepcut with Clandestine (not that the comic Clan Destine has any similarity to this version)

Disneys has really taken some risks with pushing the whole Muslim surveilance thing and with tying in the Djinn and Kree (?) and Erik Selvigs theories about Wormholes (nice Reference)

the wedding dance was fun And was that a choti Hulk costume too? Brown Jovi mwahaha


----------



## Ryujin (Jun 23, 2022)

The wedding Bollywood number


----------



## DeviousQuail (Jun 23, 2022)

The DoDC weapons are either tougher than I thought or the Clandestines knew to go quietly to maintain their cover. 

The Clandestines did the classic villain blunder of rushing the hero even though their slow play was working. They had already ingratiated themselves to Kamala. She wanted to help them and told them as much. There might be some time constraint we don't know about but they were able to wait 80 years for the bangle to show up. Waiting a little while longer was suddenly off the table?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 23, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> There might be some time constraint we don't know about but they were able to wait 80 years for the bangle to show up. Waiting a little while longer was suddenly off the table?




I am guessing so and it has something to do with that train vision they saw, since Kamala's grandmother called after it happened and said she and her mother both needed to get to Karachi as soon as possible. Something is about to happen, and it may only be connected to the females of the "Djinn", since the grandmother did not also say to bring the brother too.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Jun 23, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am guessing so and it has something to do with that train vision they saw, since Kamala's grandmother called after it happened and said she and her mother both needed to get to Karachi as soon as possible. Something is about to happen, and it may only be connected to the females of the "Djinn", since the grandmother did not also say to bring the brother too.



That makes sense but we only saw the vision of the train when the djinn lady grabbed Kamala. If that's what triggered the vision then the djinn messed up. It might've happened anyway but I don't think we know enough yet.

Just ask her to meet after the wedding, tell her you've got a plan and want to get her input, don't tip off Kamran that you're about to make a heel turn, then sneak attack and take the bangle off her at your house. Silly villains.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 23, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> The DoDC weapons are either tougher than I thought or the Clandestines knew to go quietly to maintain their cover.
> 
> The Clandestines did the classic villain blunder of rushing the hero even though their slow play was working. They had already ingratiated themselves to Kamala. She wanted to help them and told them as much. There might be some time constraint we don't know about but they were able to wait 80 years for the bangle to show up. Waiting a little while longer was suddenly off the table?



Yeah them attacking Kamala with deadly force did seem a bit excessive, I can’t recall Kamala saying no and the only advice she has that it might be dangerous was from her 17 yr old schoolmate Bruno


----------



## Stalker0 (Jun 23, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> The Clandestines did the classic villain blunder of rushing the hero even though their slow play was working. They had already ingratiated themselves to Kamala. She wanted to help them and told them as much. There might be some time constraint we don't know about but they were able to wait 80 years for the bangle to show up. Waiting a little while longer was suddenly off the table?



 Boy did they, I’m really tired of incredibly stupid villains. Even if there is some time limit (which of course the mother can’t tell her son), then just tell Kamala. “Kamala, I’m so sorry, I didn’t want to put all this pressure on you so quickly, but The truth is, our people are dying here, and we won’t last much longer if we can’t get home”

Or something to that effect. She’s a teenage girl that already trusts you, it isnt rocket science. But of course we need to show to happen, and when your in a rush just replace good writing with stupidity!


----------



## Rabulias (Jun 23, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> Just ask her to meet after the wedding, tell her you've got a plan and want to get her input, don't tip off Kamran that you're about to make a heel turn, then sneak attack and take the bangle off her at your house. Silly villains.



I don't think the Djinn can use the bangle themselves; they need Kamala to use it.


----------



## Blue (Jun 23, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I don't think the Djinn can use the bangle themselves; they need Kamala to use it.



I got that as well, that they couldn't use the light (Nor?) here as well as someone born on this plane.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 23, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I don't think the Djinn can use the bangle themselves; they need Kamala to use it.



Which makes the use of weapons that could harm her all the more ridiculous - why risk killing someone if you need them?


----------



## BRayne (Jun 23, 2022)

If I were to write out of this I'd make Kamala's great-grandmother have also explicitly turned on the rest of the Clan Destine group because the option to return would endanger Earth causing them to turn on Kamala immediately when she questioned the safety of it.


----------



## DeviousQuail (Jun 23, 2022)

BRayne said:


> If I were to write out of this I'd make Kamala's great-grandmother have also explicitly turned on the rest of the Clan Destine group because the option to return would endanger Earth causing them to turn on Kamala immediately when she questioned the safety of it.



That's better than any explanation I had thought of. Definitely left with more questions than answers but that's kinda what you want at the half way point of a show.


----------



## pukunui (Jun 23, 2022)

I'd have been suspicious when Najma said they'd been exiled. Like, what were they exiled for?


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 23, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I'd have been suspicious when Najma said they'd been exiled. Like, what were they exiled for?



Yeah but with the whole tie-in to the Partition of India its perhaps not so clear - sometimes those exiled as rebels return as ‘freedom fighters’



BRayne said:


> If I were to write out of this I'd make Kamala's great-grandmother have also explicitly turned on the rest of the Clan Destine group because the option to return would endanger Earth causing them to turn on Kamala immediately when she questioned the safety of it.



thats a really good theory, I wouldnt be suprised if Aisha disappeared “to protect her family” - who we now know were half-human


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## pukunui (Jun 23, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah but with the whole tie-in to the Partition of India its perhaps not so clear - sometimes those exiled as rebels return as ‘freedom fighters’



Maybe. But my first thought was still what did they do to get themselves exiled to Earth from whatever dimension they came from?

EDIT: I mean, yeah, maybe they were good guys exiled by an oppressive government or something, but it still seemed highly suspicious to me.


Also, who wants to bet that the second bangle will be found and Kamran will use it to awaken his powers?


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jun 23, 2022)

Now that I've seen this, I think the thought process of the elder djinn was pretty clear; they're super impatient because they're waiting for so long, and they've decided that if Kamala is going to drag her feet, they'll just grab the bangle and find one of them to use it.  Its not the smartest process ever, but, well, people aren't always smart especially when they've been waiting for something for a long time.

By the by, can I mention I'm finding myself super-irritated about the fact this is being negative review bombed, and have little reason to believe a lot of it is for the worst reasons?


----------



## Arilyn (Jun 23, 2022)

I'm loving this series so far. Very fun and engaging. I look forward to it every week.


----------



## billd91 (Jun 23, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> By the by, can I mention I'm finding myself super-irritated about the fact this is being negative review bombed, and have little reason to believe a lot of it is for the worst reasons?



Doesn't look like the review bombing is having much effect on Rotten Tomatoes. Ms Marvel is still running 83% with the audience there.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jun 23, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Doesn't look like the review bombing is having much effect on Rotten Tomatoes. Ms Marvel is still running 83% with the audience there.



Yeah compared to 63% for Obi Wan....seems like Ms Marvel is doing fine.


----------



## Rabulias (Jun 23, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Maybe. But my first thought was still what did they do to get themselves exiled to Earth from whatever dimension they came from?
> 
> EDIT: I mean, yeah, maybe they were good guys exiled by an oppressive government or something, but it still seemed highly suspicious to me.



One does wonder if sending powerful beings to an innocent world whose inhabitants are normally much weaker than those beings is indeed a good thing?


Spoiler: Eternals spoiler



Maybe they thought they would all get swallowed up by Tiamut anyway?


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jun 23, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> One does wonder if sending powerful beings to an innocent world whose inhabitants are normally much weaker than those beings is indeed a good thing?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Eternals spoiler
> ...




Its always possible it was simply a NIMBY thing by whoever banished them.  Heck, who knows if they even knew there were humans here?


----------



## billd91 (Jun 23, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> One does wonder if sending powerful beings to an innocent world whose inhabitants are normally much weaker than those beings is indeed a good thing?



The exiles may dominate the local world, but if those weaker inhabitants really are so weak, you can be sure the exiles won't be able to use them in any significant way to return to power. It would be like exiling Napoleon to an island populated by nothing but macaques. As superior as Napoleon might be, he's not turning those macaques into a formidable army with which to return to power.


----------



## Rabulias (Jun 23, 2022)

billd91 said:


> The exiles may dominate the local world, but if those weaker inhabitants really are so weak, you can be sure the exiles won't be able to use them in any significant way to return to power. It would be like exiling Napoleon to an island populated by nothing but macaques. As superior as Napoleon might be, he's not turning those macaques into a formidable army with which to return to power.



True, but my point was (to extend your analogy) that Napoleon could harm/kill the macaques with impunity, not that he would form an army to return to power.


----------



## Ryujin (Jun 23, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> True, but my point was (to extend your analogy) that Napoleon could harm/kill the macaques with impunity, not that he would form an army to return to power.



Though if you knew that it would make _you_ (generically) safe, what matter a few Macaques?


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 23, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Though if you knew that it would make _you_ (generically) safe, what matter a few Macaques?


----------



## Staffan (Jun 24, 2022)

Also, Clan Destine is a really deep cut. Even if they don't seem to have much in common with the ones from the comics, other than the link to djinn.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 24, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I'd have been suspicious when Najma said they'd been exiled. Like, what were they exiled for?




For being the wrong religion.  The partition of the British colony into India and Pakistan was along non-Muslim/Muslim lines.  Between 10 and 20 million people were displaced.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 24, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah them attacking Kamala with deadly force did seem a bit excessive




Given the power Kamala has, they may not have many other options.


Tonguez said:


> I can’t recall Kamala saying no and the only advice she has that it might be dangerous was from her 17 yr old schoolmate Bruno




So, from what I have read, this may actually be in line with traditional mythological depiction of jinn.  They can have prodigious tempers, and may not take well to being balked.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> For being the wrong religion.  The partition of the British colony into India and Pakistan was along non-Muslim/Muslim lines.  Between 10 and 20 million people were displaced.




Yep, or we can look at several times in history when Protestants and Catholics came to blows.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 24, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yep, or we can look at several times in history when Protestants and Catholics came to blows.




I don't know why we would, given that we are talking about a very well-documented event from real-world history.  Heck, it is in the first paragraph of the Wikipedia article on the Partition of India.



Blue said:


> I got that as well, that they couldn't use the light (Nor?) ...




In English it is variously spelled "noor", "nur", "nor", or "nour".  My understanding is that for most Americans, "noor" probably gets you closest to the typical pronunciation.  YMMV.


----------



## pukunui (Jun 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> For being the wrong religion.  The partition of the British colony into India and Pakistan was along non-Muslim/Muslim lines.  Between 10 and 20 million people were displaced.



I thought Najma was talking about being exiled from whatever other dimension she and her fellow djinn originally came from. The flashback we saw at the start of episode 3 indicated it took place in 1942, so I don't think the Partition has anything to do with the Clandestines' exile. It _is _relevant to Aisha's disappearance, though.


----------



## Mallus (Jun 24, 2022)

Amir and Tyesha’s wedding approached Sense8 levels of pure joy at being human & alive. Bonus points for not scoring the scene to Four Non Blondes!

(full disclosure: I like that Four Non Blondes song)


----------



## MarkB (Jun 24, 2022)

Blue said:


> I got that as well, that they couldn't use the light (Nor?) here as well as someone born on this plane.



They said the bangle unlocked her innate Noor. Which Kamala didn't pick up on at the time, but I suspect will lead to a "your powers were in you all along" scene at some point.

Quite possibly, giving Kamala access to her powers was simply a side effect of the bangle and we haven't even seen its true function yet.


----------



## Nikosandros (Jun 24, 2022)

billd91 said:


> The exiles may dominate the local world, but if those weaker inhabitants really are so weak, you can be sure the exiles won't be able to use them in any significant way to return to power. It would be like exiling Napoleon to an island populated by nothing but macaques. As superior as Napoleon might be, he's not turning those macaques into a formidable army with which to return to power.



... and now I have this image of Napoleon making his triumphant _Rentrée _in Paris together with the _Old Guard _macaques grognards.


----------



## Nikosandros (Jun 24, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I thought Najma was talking about being exiled from whatever other dimension she and her fellow djinn originally came from. The flashback we saw at the start of episode 3 indicated it took place in 1942, so I don't think the Partition has anything to do with the Clandestines' exile. It _is _relevant to Aisha's disappearance, though.



Yes, I think that it is pretty clear that they are talking about an inter-dimensional exile.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 24, 2022)

Oh, another thing I noticed: in the flashback, when the Clan Destines were digging through the rubble in the temple, they found the bangle on a blue severed hand. Which of course indicates some relation to the Kree.


----------



## pukunui (Jun 24, 2022)

Staffan said:


> Oh, another thing I noticed: in the flashback, when the Clan Destines were digging through the rubble in the temple, they found the bangle on a blue severed hand. Which of course indicates some relation to the Kree.



Does it, though? Why would a Kree have a magic bangle with Arabic and/or Urdu writing on it?

There are other aliens with blue skin. For all we know, the djinn are naturally blue-skinned, just like Aladdin's genie. 

That said, as I mentioned upthread, including some Kree could be a way to tie Ms Marvel into Captain Marvel's story better for the upcoming _The Marvels _movie, which I expect will take place in outer space for at least part of its runtime (given that Monica, who is also going to be in the movie, was last seen being summoned to outer space to meet with Nick Fury at the end of WandaVision).


----------



## Ryujin (Jun 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> For being the wrong religion.  The partition of the British colony into India and Pakistan was along non-Muslim/Muslim lines.  Between 10 and 20 million people were displaced.



I believe the statement was about exile from the Noor Dimension, not India.


----------



## Ryujin (Jun 24, 2022)

Staffan said:


> Oh, another thing I noticed: in the flashback, when the Clan Destines were digging through the rubble in the temple, they found the bangle on a blue severed hand. Which of course indicates some relation to the Kree.



Could (and probably does) indicate Kree, but could also indicate the god Shiva. Vishnu is also depicted with blue skin. Blue powder is used on the body for celebrations.


----------



## Bolares (Jun 24, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Does it, though? Why would a Kree have a magic bangle with Arabic and/or Urdu writing on it?
> 
> There are other aliens with blue skin. For all we know, the djinn are naturally blue-skinned, just like Aladdin's genie.
> 
> That said, as I mentioned upthread, including some Kree could be a way to tie Ms Marvel into Captain Marvel's story better for the upcoming _The Marvels _movie, which I expect will take place in outer space for at least part of its runtime (given that Monica, who is also going to be in the movie, was last seen being summoned to outer space to meet with Nick Fury at the end of WandaVision).



The bangle could easily be some version of the negabands…


----------



## pukunui (Jun 24, 2022)

I don’t know what those are.


----------



## trappedslider (Jun 24, 2022)

pukunui said:


> There are other aliens with blue skin. For all we know, the djinn are naturally blue-skinned, just like Aladdin's genie.



Chiss?


----------



## billd91 (Jun 24, 2022)

Bolares said:


> The bangle could easily be some version of the negabands…



That definitely came to mind for me as well as soon as I saw the blue skin on the arm.


----------



## Davies (Jun 24, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I don’t know what those are.



Those are these.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 24, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Could (and probably does) indicate Kree




I thought so to, as the Kree were involved in the creation of the Inhumans, which are central to Ms Marvel's comics origin. 

From there, it gets confusing, though.  The Clandestines themselves don't seem able to use them, as they aren't from around here.  But then, why were they seeking them out at all?


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I thought so to, as the Kree were involved in the creation of the Inhumans, which are central to Ms Marvel's comics origin.
> 
> From there, it gets confusing, though.  The Clandestines themselves don't seem able to use them, as they aren't from around here.  But then, why were they seeking them out at all?



Apparently if they have two of them they become a key to the Noor dimension, but they cant use one (except Aisha who is linked to human offspring?)

theres some speculation that the 10 Rings are the other missing bracelet, or at least related tech.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jun 24, 2022)

I believe there is a Ten Rings easter egg at the beginning of episode three.

Involving the kree could directly link MCU Ms. Marvel to Captain Marvel. Given the upcoming _The Marvels_ movie...

Possibly the bangle and the ten rings are kree artefacts, and a take on negabands. The bangle may not belong to the Djinn in any way, they just want to use it.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 24, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I believe there is a Ten Rings easter egg at the beginning of episode three.



yeah the floor of the temple where they find the bangle (on a severed blue arm) features the 10-Rings symbol. The severed arm may indicate an earler battle - maybe when the other bangle was taken?


----------



## Ryujin (Jun 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I thought so to, as the Kree were involved in the creation of the Inhumans, which are central to Ms Marvel's comics origin.
> 
> From there, it gets confusing, though.  The Clandestines themselves don't seem able to use them, as they aren't from around here.  But then, why were they seeking them out at all?



Well there's the rest of my post to cover that 

Then again, there could be a red herring involved and the bands aren't Noor in origin and Kamala's origin really hasn't been changed.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 25, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well there's the rest of my post to cover that
> 
> Then again, there could be a red herring involved and the bands aren't Noor in origin and Kamala's origin really hasn't been changed.



She's clearly not Inhuman, as there's been no Terrigenesis going on. It is unclear how much of Agents of SHIELD is canon, but season 2 seems to be (Fury shows up with a helicarrier Coulson has been working on all season as a secret project), and season 2 is where the Inhumans are introduced. Terrigen mists from Terrigen crystals are what causes Inhuman mutations in the show, and we've seen nothing of the sort in Ms. Marvel.


----------



## Ryujin (Jun 25, 2022)

Staffan said:


> She's clearly not Inhuman, as there's been no Terrigenesis going on. It is unclear how much of Agents of SHIELD is canon, but season 2 seems to be (Fury shows up with a helicarrier Coulson has been working on all season as a secret project), and season 2 is where the Inhumans are introduced. Terrigen mists from Terrigen crystals are what causes Inhuman mutations in the show, and we've seen nothing of the sort in Ms. Marvel.



... unless embedded in the bangle.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 25, 2022)

Staffan said:


> She's clearly not Inhuman, as there's been no Terrigenesis going on. It is unclear how much of Agents of SHIELD is canon, but season 2 seems to be (Fury shows up with a helicarrier Coulson has been working on all season as a secret project), and season 2 is where the Inhumans are introduced. Terrigen mists from Terrigen crystals are what causes Inhuman mutations in the show, and we've seen nothing of the sort in Ms. Marvel.




Zero canon. Same for the 6-episode Inhumans show. No Inhumans or Terrigen mist in the primary MCU. And now that Marvel has the rights back to mutants, I would guess, at least in the main MCU, it will be mutants and not Inhumans. But of course, as we saw in MoM, Black Bolt, and probably other Inhumans, do exist in the 838-MCU.


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## Staffan (Jun 25, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> ... unless embedded in the bangle.



There was still no terrigenesis, just a glowy light. This shows what terrigenesis looks like in AOS:

I can't recall if we saw terrigenesis in the Inhumans show, which is probably at least closer to canon (since they brought Anson Mount back as Black Bolt in Strange 2).


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## Tonguez (Jun 25, 2022)

Staffan said:


> There was still no terrigenesis, just a glowy light. This shows what terrigenesis looks like in AOS:
> 
> I can't recall if we saw terrigenesis in the Inhumans show, which is probably at least closer to canon (since they brought Anson Mount back as Black Bolt in Strange 2).



They had the terrigen chamber scene in Inhumans show, a crystal was dropped in, the chamber filled with mist and the Butterfly girl came out. So crystals mist is canon? But nothing on the level of a terigin bomb


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## Janx (Jun 27, 2022)

We loved the latest episode with the wedding and the fighting and the character stuff.

Ms. Marvel is one of the top MCU heroes just for raw "we're enjoying the heck out of it"

And it turns out I was right, there is another bangle.


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## pukunui (Jun 29, 2022)

Well, that was an interesting episode!

So if the Clandestines aren't actually “djinn”, then what are they really? Hopefully we’ll find out.

And it seems their plan isn’t to return to their home realm but to transform our realm into theirs!

Now Kamala’s got _three_ boys who like her.


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## Tonguez (Jun 29, 2022)

Hmmm so Noor is like Ta Lo and Kun Lun? Connected to Earth but veiled?

I liked the episode, good emotional moments between Nani and Muneeba and nice action scenes. Suprised about the deaths and apparently time travel!

And meta joke - Vellani is Canadian


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 29, 2022)

This show has been great all around and I hope all the doubters who said it would be too "kiddy" have been shut up now.


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## Tonguez (Jun 29, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> This show has been great all around and I hope all the doubters who said it would be too "kiddy" have been shut up now.



Yes I’m one of those who expected Disneytween and instead got a really interesting show about life as a Pakistani Growing up in the MCUSA


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## DeviousQuail (Jun 29, 2022)

I don't remember what thread it was but I said something along the lines of "it doesn't look like it's for me, I'll probably just binge it when it's over". I'm glad I decided to check out the first episode because I was more pumped for new episodes of it each week than Obi-Wan.


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## Tonguez (Jun 29, 2022)

DeviousQuail said:


> I don't remember what thread it was but I said something along the lines of "it doesn't look like it's for me, I'll probably just binge it when it's over". I'm glad I decided to check out the first episode because I was more pumped for new episodes of it each week than Obi-Wan.



So much so, that this week I sat down and went to watch the show only to then realise it was only Tuesday!


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## trappedslider (Jun 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yes I’m one of those who expected Disneytween and instead got a really interesting show about life as a Pakistani Growing up in the MCUSA



Magical Congress of the USA?


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## Hex08 (Jun 29, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yes I’m one of those who expected Disneytween and instead got a really interesting show about life as a Pakistani Growing up in the MCUSA



I'm with you on that. I expressed disinterest in the show in another, earlier thread because it looked like a Nickelodeon show to me and got dogpiled on but I'm glad I watched it because the show has been a delight.


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## FitzTheRuke (Jun 30, 2022)

It's been surprisingly good, and as a fan of the comic (at least early on), I'm impressed by how much I enjoy the changes to her powers and origin. This is a LOT more interesting than a terrigen cocoon. It also gives her family more to do in the story, and they've all been really great.


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## RangerWickett (Jul 1, 2022)

I do think she could have benefited from a bit more of the original comics' mood of most of the crime fighting just being no big deal instead of focusing so much on the history of her power source . . . 

But also it's allowed this neat exposure of a part of Pakistani history and more of her having coming of age moments. 

I do miss the light goofiness of the comics, but overall the show's doing it for me.


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## Hex08 (Jul 1, 2022)

RangerWickett said:


> But also it's allowed this neat exposure of a part of Pakistani history



This was interesting. I am fully aware that the European powers really messed up the geopolitics of the Middle East when they drew a bunch of artificial borders in the area, leading to (in part) some of the problems in that part of the world. However, I wasn't as aware of the partitioning of India until this show. Ms. Marvel has led me to do some other reading on the topic so kudos to the show for the education.


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## trappedslider (Jul 1, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> This was interesting. I am fully aware that the European powers really messed up the geopolitics of the Middle East when they drew a bunch of artificial borders in the area, leading to (in part) some of the problems in that part of the world. However, I wasn't as aware of the partitioning of India until this show. Ms. Marvel has led me to do some other reading on the topic so kudos to the show for the education.



An episode of Doctor Who also dealt with it iirc


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 2, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> An episode of Doctor Who also dealt with it iirc



Doctor Who crossover episode next week confirmed!


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## Tonguez (Jul 6, 2022)

Hmm this episode left me unsatisfied, the jump from the past to present was jarring, lots of sentimentailty but we do get some answers and a season 2 set up. 

how they close it out next episode will be interesting, hopefully the links with the wider MCU become evident

the skeletons were comical


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 6, 2022)

I am guessing the rift between worlds only sealed because Najma was the last of the full-blooded Djinn still on Earth? I can't think of any other reason for it. Also, what exactly did she give to Kamran? Just new powers or something more sinister that will turn him into the villain for episode 6 and beyond? Also, are Najma and that other Djinn truly dead or did they just lose their physical Earth bodies, while there spirits made it back home?

I also still want to know exactly what the bangle does. Would it do anything for Kamala's brother or for Kamran or will it only work on female descendants of human-Djinn unions? Did it not work for Kamala's mother or grandmother for some reason, because I can't think of any reason Sana would not have worn it as she got older, like did they not have something just right in their genetics for powers to be activated?

Also, am I just remembering wrong or isn't their another matching bangle out there somewhere?


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## Tonguez (Jul 6, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Also, am I just remembering wrong or isn't their another matching bangle out there somewhere?



yeah when Aisha finds the bangle in the temple, someone asks ‘wheres the other one?” - so its assumed there is a second, but we’ve never seen it.

I was asking your other questions too, it all seemed very contrived especially the whole closing the portal and Najma being able to send the residual Noor energy to Kamran. 
Im assuming too, based on the scene with Bruno when Kamran says he expects his mother to come back to find him that when she doesnt, he’ll blame Kamala and thus make the villain turn


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## Stalker0 (Jul 6, 2022)

I didn't mind spending some time in the past, though Kamala's journey back there just didn't seem to make much sense. Its not like it gave her a super new insight or was an intense hero's journey or anything....there is nothing from that plotline that you couldn't have with Isha giving her last breath to send the stars after her daughter....so I'm not sure what the point.

The villains super sudden change of heart was pretty trash....she has spent years trying to get home, killed people to do it, and now one word from the hero and she's like, "your right, I should kill myself instead". It was super weird.


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## DeviousQuail (Jul 6, 2022)

This episode started off well with the look back at the years leading up to the Partition but really fell off after that. I'm hoping the final episode rights the ship.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 7, 2022)

The other thing that was weird, I honestly felt the main actress was kind of tuned out. It was like half her personality was missing, she was quiet, feeble.... this girl is usually a bouncing ball of energy, and that was missing. hehe maybe she realized the episode wasn't that great either


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## DeviousQuail (Jul 7, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> The other thing that was weird, I honestly felt the main actress was kind of tuned out. It was like half her personality was missing, she was quiet, feeble.... this girl is usually a bouncing ball of energy, and that was missing. hehe maybe she realized the episode wasn't that great either



Agreed, but I think that's on the writers. She's missing for the half the episode so we can do a flashback, finishes her confrontation with the Clandestines, her mother finds out she's "the Light girl", says goodbye to Red Knife, and then has an emotional scene with her mother and grandmother. Very little room for bubbliness in this episode.


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## pukunui (Jul 7, 2022)

I thought Kamala was suitably solemn as she took part in a moment of her family’s tragic history. (I knew she would end up being the one who produced the trail of stars for her grandmother …)

I also suspect Najma wasn’t being genuine in her apparent sacrifice. I suspect she hasn’t merely awoken Kamran’s powers but has somehow sent her spirit or something to inhabit his body.

Also, what are the odds Carol will show up in the final episode (perhaps in a credits scene)?

Also, do we still think Kamala’s bangle and Shang-Chi’s rings are related? Perhaps both are ancient Kree tech?

I figure the bangle isn’t from the Noor dimension. It just has the power to access it / unlock latent Noor abilities. It may even be able to do other things.

Also, I liked how Kamala, her mom, and her grandmother all made up at the end. This show’s portrayal of their relationships has been one of its strengths.


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## Tonguez (Jul 7, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I thought Kamala was suitably solemn as she took part in a moment of her family’s tragic history. (I knew she would end up being the one who produced the trail of stars for her grandmother …)
> 
> I also suspect Najma wasn’t being genuine in her apparent sacrifice. I suspect she hasn’t merely awoken Kamran’s powers but has somehow sent her spirit or something to inhabit his body.
> 
> ...



yeah the stars being Kamala was kinda lampshaded early (I even had a thought that oh what if Kamala is Aisha! But then realised thats a bit icky - it would match your idea about Namjas spirit being sent to Kamran though)

I was also kinda hoping that Kamala would give Najma the bangle to try and close the portal; Najma would be transformed into a superpowerful form but then be sucked into the bangle - and then someone would say “_Phenomenal cosmic powers! Itty bitty living space_!”



In the Shang-Chi post credit scene Captain Marvel says “theyre not like any alien tech I’ve seen” so not obvious Kree tech (but not entirely ruled out)


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## pukunui (Jul 7, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> In the Shang-Chi post credit scene Captain Marvel says “theyre not like any alien tech I’ve seen” so not obvious Kree tech (but not entirely ruled out)



Carol might not recognize ancient Kree tech. But yeah, we’ll have to wait and see.

Given that Wong had to zoom in to show the beacon, I wonder if it’s transmitting into the quantum realm rather than outer space and will have something to do with the next Ant Man film. (Ant Man is also referenced a number of times in Ms Marvel so there could be a connection there as well.)


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## trappedslider (Jul 7, 2022)




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## Tonguez (Jul 7, 2022)

trappedslider said:


>



I don't know what Face card is either 
But yeah, I can understand the simping she is beautiful


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## DeviousQuail (Jul 8, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I don't know what Face card is either
> But yeah, I can understand the simping she is beautiful



A brief Google search suggests that "face card" is a way to compliment someone having a beautiful face. It can mean many things like saying someone has a pretty enough face to get what they want, having a beautiful face that makes up for other aspects of their physique (but in a good way I guess?), or like a face card in a card game that suggests they have a winning face. I don't know if it originated on TikTok but it has certainly gained popularity there.


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## Hex08 (Jul 8, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I don't know what Face card is either
> But yeah, I can understand the simping she is beautiful



Simping? I think my age may be showing but the closest connection I have to that word is simp, which was short for simpleton when I was a kid. Basically a way of calling someone stupid. I did a Google search and got the definition "when someone obsesses over someone else who does not return their affection" which sounds like an insult or someone being stuck in the friend zone and I don't understand how that applies here.


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## Tonguez (Jul 8, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Simping? I think my age may be showing but the closest connection I have to that word is simp, which was short for simpleton when I was a kid. Basically a way of calling someone stupid. I did a Google search and got the definition "when someone obsesses over someone else who does not return their affection" which sounds like an insult or someone being stuck in the friend zone and I don't understand how that applies here.



Yeah as far as I can tell calling someone a Simp is a mild insult. In this Actress’ case fan simping would be fans infatuated with a beautiful star (famous person)  to the point that they declare their love for the star.
As far as I can tell it is abused by social media influencers who ask simps to send them gifts (may be urban legend but seems plausible)


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## DeviousQuail (Jul 9, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah as far as I can tell calling someone a Simp is a mild insult. In this Actress’ case fan simping would be fans infatuated with a beautiful star (famous person)  to the point that they declare their love for the star.
> As far as I can tell it is abused by social media influencers who ask simps to send them gifts (may be urban legend but seems plausible)



It's something that has existed forever but we have a new word for it that younger people are using. The trope of the geeky guy doing the hot girl's homework while she otherwise ignores him is a classic example of a simp. The only difference now is that the internet makes it so much easier to use someone else's simping for monetary gain without having to actually come in contact with them.


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## pukunui (Jul 9, 2022)

Just a comment re: the Terrigen Mists, I’m just rewatching Multiverse of Madness, and I note that the Illuminati describe Black Bolt as the “Keeper of the Terrigen Mists” … so they must exist in the MCU even if they’re not the cause of Ms Marvel’s powers.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 9, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Just a comment re: the Terrigen Mists, I’m just rewatching Multiverse of Madness, and I note that the Illuminati describe Black Bolt as the “Keeper of the Terrigen Mists” … so they must exist in the MCU even if they’re not the cause of Ms Marvel’s powers.




There's no reason they can't exist in some worlds of the Multiverse while still not existing in the main one.


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## Tonguez (Jul 13, 2022)

Final episode? That was weird, a bit too schmaltzy for my liking, and after last weeks action in Karachi it seemed anticlimatic and disconnected - which I suppose its what happens when you have the Djinn A-Plot and Damage Control B-Plot both having to be resolved seperately.

intresting they may just have used Kamala to officially introduce Mutants into the MCU! (albeit the genetic anamoly may have been an Inhuman nod)

that cameo seemed a bit weird too


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## Ryujin (Jul 13, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Final episode? That was weird, a bit too schmaltzy for my liking, and after last weeks action in Karachi it seemed anticlimatic and disconnected - which I suppose its what happens when you have the Djinn A-Plot and Damage Control B-Plot both having to be resolved seperately.
> 
> intresting they may just have used Kamala to officially introduce Mutants into the MCU! (albeit the genetic anamoly may have been an Inhuman nod)
> 
> that cameo seemed a bit weird too



I think it capped it off quite nicely, while setting up for The Marvels.


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## Thomas Shey (Jul 13, 2022)

Yeah, my read is that's a lead-in to the Marvels.  Its a bit annoying because all the reshuffling means that won't show its face until this time next year, but that's the biz.

And yes, I don't think the slight emphasis on the word "mutation" was a coincidence.


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## TwoSix (Jul 13, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> intresting they may just have used Kamala to officially introduce Mutants into the MCU! (albeit the genetic anamoly may have been an Inhuman nod)



They played the X-Men theme in the background immediately after saying the word "mutation"; it's definitely not an Inhuman nod.


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## trappedslider (Jul 13, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> They played the X-Men theme in the background immediately after saying the word "mutation"; it's definitely not an Inhuman nod.



And not just any x-men theme but the OG from the 97 x-men just like they did with Professor X in MoM


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 13, 2022)

Looking back at WandaVision and how Monica got her powers by pushing through the hex barrier, I wonder if she will officially be called a mutant too because that may have activated mutations in her DNA?

As for the X-Men '97 theme, isn't that the old cartoon getting a new season on Disney+?


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## Tonguez (Jul 13, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> As for the X-Men '97 theme, isn't that the old cartoon getting a new season on Disney+?



Yes they are, also why Professor X had the yellow chair in MoM - coming out 2023 and tentatively titled _X-Men ‘97

I missed the music cue though_


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## DeviousQuail (Jul 13, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Final episode? That was weird, a bit too schmaltzy for my liking, and after last weeks action in Karachi it seemed anticlimatic and disconnected - which I suppose its what happens when you have the Djinn A-Plot and Damage Control B-Plot both having to be resolved seperately.



Agreed. They really needed to bring it back to Jersey before tying up the Djinn stuff. Perhaps a three way standoff between the DoDC, the Djinn, and team Kamala. Najma sacrifices herself to save Kamran from the DoDC. Kamran gets his powers and tries to kill the DoDC. Kamala tries to stop everyone from fighting and helps Kamran escape. DoDC looks bad for trying to kill a girl who is trying to protect people. The end. 

Not a great end to a show that was doing really well 2/3 of the way through. There is a bit of a redemption with the mutant tease and Danvers at the end that makes me interested to see more.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 13, 2022)

I think the final episode was solid, but it just showcased how weak the last episode was with the Djinn plot being finished so quickly and in such a weird way. I liked the people surrounding Kamala, it had a cool Spiderman 2 vibe (and I mean OG spiderman 2). Kamran wasn't really a villain but just a scared angry kid not really understanding his powers, and I think that worked out well.

I will say can we stop with these weirdly obsessed government agent types? I mean the lead govt lady had to know that the second she disobeyed those direct orders and attacked kids in a public place that her career was done. Why would she risk it....does she have some intense hatred of sups because of some tragedy in her backstory....man wouldn't that be cool to know. But no, instead we get some incredibly generic govt type with no characterization or backstory that once again fires at children. You think after Black Panther and Thanos, Marvel would realize that cool villains are just as important if not more than the heroes themselves to an awesome movie. But....no, sigh.

How the name Ms Marvel came out was also pretty solid, it makes WAY more sense than Carol being called Captain Marvel at this point. I also liked the costume, its sleek, powerful, and pretty but without being too sexual. It also has a nice similarity to Captain Marvel without being a copy.

Episode 5 notwithstanding, overall I was pretty happy with the series.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 13, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I think the final episode was solid, but it just showcased how weak the last episode was with the Djinn plot being finished so quickly and in such a weird way. I liked the people surrounding Kamala, it had a cool Spiderman 2 vibe (and I mean OG spiderman 2). Kamran wasn't really a villain but just a scared angry kid not really understanding his powers, and I think that worked out well.
> 
> I will say can we stop with these weirdly obsessed government agent types? I mean the lead govt lady had to know that the second she disobeyed those direct orders and attacked kids in a public place that her career was done. Why would she risk it....does she have some intense hatred of sups because of some tragedy in her backstory....man wouldn't that be cool to know. But no, instead we get some incredibly generic govt type with no characterization or backstory that once again fires at children. You think after Black Panther and Thanos, Marvel would realize that cool villains are just as important if not more than the heroes themselves to an awesome movie. But....no, sigh.
> 
> ...



"Success requires no apologies. Failure permits no alibis."


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## pukunui (Jul 13, 2022)

My girls and I all thought it was perfect that her mum gave her the outfit and her dad gave her the name.

Yeah, the quick wrap-up with the Clandestines and the obsessed DoDC lady were a bit weird but overall it was a solid, feel good origin story for Ms Marvel.

I loved Carol’s reaction to finding herself in a fangirl’s bedroom. But now where is Kamala?!

They better do a season 2 that delves into the Noor and the djinn some more. They can’t just leave that hanging like that.


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## Hex08 (Jul 14, 2022)

For a show that I had low expectations for, I enjoyed it a lot. Iman Vellani was amazing. That said, I had issues.

One of the things that turned me off from the initial trailer was that some of the cartoonish graphics popping up on screen really reminded me of a kids show but when I actually saw them in the first episode I thought they worked.... and then they disappeared.... and then they came back in the last episode. It was weirdly inconsistent.

I really enjoyed the look into Pakastani culture and was prompted to do some reading on The Partition so kudos to the show for the education. That said, the time spent in Pakistan didn't really seem to add anything to the show that couldn't have happened in New Jersey. All it did was sideline a lot of the supporting characters.

The little bits that led to all of the things that eventually came together for her costume; the broken necklace shaped like a lightning bolt, her getting the scarf, etc. just seemed like too much of a stretch. Almost every bit of her costume came from a scene like that and it was too much. It felt very much like the needless Easter Eggs from Solo: A Star Wars Story.

The threat of the interesting Djinn ending in the penultimate episode only to make the main bad guy in the finale the horrible and uninteresting Agent Deever from Damage Control was also not well thought out.

All of that aside, I am looking forward to seeing Ms. Marvel in The Marvels.

Edited to add --- And making her a mutant seemed a bit strange and out of nowhere. Wasn't being a half-Djinn enough?


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I think the final episode was solid, but it just showcased how weak the last episode was with the Djinn plot being finished so quickly and in such a weird way. I liked the people surrounding Kamala, it had a cool Spiderman 2 vibe (and I mean OG spiderman 2). Kamran wasn't really a villain but just a scared angry kid not really understanding his powers, and I think that worked out well.




Yeah I agree with this and through the whole final episode kept thinking ‘this would have been a cool episode if we didnt have the Karachi portal scene last week’, that Djinn stuff was weird especially when it had no pay off except for the Clandestine getting boned p). I would have preferred for the Portal to have worked and Najma having to redeem herself by saving her son from the Noor backlash (Season 2). - I like DeviousQuails alternative. 

And yeah a Damage Control agent needing damage control did feel a bit silly ...


----------



## Davies (Jul 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I loved Carol’s reaction to finding herself in a fangirl’s bedroom. But now where is Kamala?!



The Negative Zone, probably.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 14, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> The little bits that led to all of the things that eventually came together for her costume; the broken necklace shaped like a lightning bolt, her getting the scarf, etc. just seemed like too much of a stretch. Almost every bit of her costume came from a scene like that and it was too much. It felt very much like the needless Easter Eggs from Solo: A Star Wars Story.
> 
> Edited to add --- And making her a mutant seemed a bit strange and out of nowhere. Wasn't being a half-Djinn enough?



That's because your looking at the costume backwards. You already know what the costume is, so seeing the pieces of it feels contrived. Well...because it is....when you know the ending, the present always seems a bit contrived.

But if instead you look at it from Kamala and her mother's perspective, each element of the costume has meaning, meaning that developed from Kamala's journey as a hero. Her costume is a symbol to others, but the pieces of it are symbols to Kamala. That's pretty solid to me.


Ultimately the mutant thing will depend on where they go with it. If her being a mutant is intended to matter to her latter stories, fair enough. If they never really do much, than yeah its just a needless drop in to garner false excitement.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 14, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I really enjoyed the look into Pakastani culture and was prompted to do some reading on The Partition so kudos to the show for the education. That said, the time spent in Pakistan didn't really seem to add anything to the show that couldn't have happened in New Jersey. All it did was sideline a lot of the supporting characters.




Because the trip to Pakistan was important in the comic book, plus that is where Red Dagger (comic book person)/the Red Daggers organization (MCU version) are based. Moving all that to the US would have invalidated a lot.


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## billd91 (Jul 14, 2022)

Davies said:


> The Negative Zone, probably.



That would have interesting implications.


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## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Because the trip to Pakistan was important in the comic book, plus that is where Red Dagger (comic book person)/the Red Daggers organization (MCU version) are based. Moving all that to the US would have invalidated a lot.



The 6 episode structure of Marvel TV+ is really starting to tell, Ms Kamala could have benefitted from having just one more episode to bring them back from Karachi to Jersey City and make the existence of the Noor dimension(?) meaningful, but thats the rules being imposed on the writers, so things get dropped for the sake of expedience


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## pukunui (Jul 14, 2022)

I wish these shows were all 8–10 episodes long. They all feel like they could do with just a little more time to really flesh things out.



Davies said:


> The Negative Zone, probably.



I don’t know what that is. I figured that she and Carol swapped places, so wouldn’t Kamala be on another planet or something?


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## Davies (Jul 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> I don’t know what that is. I figured that she and Carol swapped places, so wouldn’t Kamala be on another planet or something?



In the Captain Marvel comics that Carol's identity as the original Ms. Marvel spun out of, Rick Jones would switch places with Captain Mar-Vell by clasping his Nega-Bands together, summoning him from the Negative Zone (another dimension) where he was stuck for reasons.


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## Hex08 (Jul 14, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Because the trip to Pakistan was important in the comic book, plus that is where Red Dagger (comic book person)/the Red Daggers organization (MCU version) are based. Moving all that to the US would have invalidated a lot.



Kind of my point, the Red Daggers really added nothing to the show other than giving Kamala someone to run around Pakistan with. What's important to the comic doesn't necessarily translate well to TV, especially if not well done.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 14, 2022)

Davies said:


> In the Captain Marvel comics that Carol's identity as the original Ms. Marvel spun out of, Rick Jones would switch places with Captain Mar-Vell by clasping his Nega-Bands together, summoning him from the Negative Zone (another dimension) where he was stuck for reasons.



Not having read the comics, that doesn’t mean much to me. I’ll take your word for it, though. Thanks.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> But if instead you look at it from Kamala and her mother's perspective, each element of the costume has meaning, meaning that developed from Kamala's journey as a hero. Her costume is a symbol to others, but the pieces of it are symbols to Kamala. That's pretty solid to me.



I have no problem that her mother created the costume but looking at it from her mother's perspective doesn't work. When was she aware that the red scarf came from the Red Daggers? Most of it, even if I grant you things like the broken necklace, come across to me as very contrived.


----------



## Davies (Jul 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Not having read the comics,



Don't let it trouble you, we're talking stuff from around 50 years ago at this point.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 14, 2022)

Davies said:


> Don't let it trouble you, we're talking stuff from around 50 years ago at this point.



Stop making me feel old


----------



## Rabulias (Jul 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> My girls and I all thought it was perfect that her mum gave her the outfit and her dad gave her the name.



And Bruno gave her the mask.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2022)

Davies said:


> In the Captain Marvel comics that Carol's identity as the original Ms. Marvel spun out of, Rick Jones would switch places with Captain Mar-Vell by clasping his Nega-Bands together, summoning him from the Negative Zone (another dimension) where he was stuck for reasons.



if they hadnt made a big issue of closing the portal last week I might have accepted Kamala being transported to the Noor dimension, but having it be the Negative Zone would really make a mockery of the whole closing the portal conceit from last week


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> if they hadnt made a big issue of closing the portal last week I might have accepted Kamala being transported to the Noor dimension, but having it be the Negative Zone would really make a mockery of the whole closing the portal conceit from last week



We also have no reason to think Carol was stuck in the Negative Zone. While they obviously switched places I doubt either is in the Negative Zone.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 14, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> if they hadnt made a big issue of closing the portal last week I might have accepted Kamala being transported to the Noor dimension, but having it be the Negative Zone would really make a mockery of the whole closing the portal conceit from last week




Its probably something that won't, and isn't supposed to, make sense until "The Marvels" premiers.


----------



## Nutation (Jul 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> That's because your looking at the costume backwards. You already know what the costume is, so seeing the pieces of it feels contrived. Well...because it is....when you know the ending, the present always seems a bit contrived.
> 
> But if instead you look at it from Kamala and her mother's perspective, each element of the costume has meaning, meaning that developed from Kamala's journey as a hero. Her costume is a symbol to others, but the pieces of it are symbols to Kamala. That's pretty solid to me.



Something similar was done in _Captain America: TFA._ He is wearing his stage outfit, then he puts on combat gear over it, then the two get blended into the final outfit.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I will say can we stop with these weirdly obsessed government agent types? I mean the lead govt lady had to know that the second she disobeyed those direct orders and attacked kids in a public place that her career was done. Why would she risk it....does she have some intense hatred of sups because of some tragedy in her backstory....



Deever is clearly the only one who can see these "enhanced individuals" for the menaces that they are, and if her superiors at the Department of Damage Control are asleep at the wheel she might have to go into the private sector and find someone who is more Wideawake.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 14, 2022)

Staffan said:


> Deever is clearly the only one who can see these "enhanced individuals" for the menaces that they are, and if her superiors at the Department of Damage Control are asleep at the wheel she might have to go into the private sector and find someone who is more Wideawake.



My issue there is, its not a scenario where Deever is the only one at the department who thinks their dangerous, at no point is her boss going "oh yeah we are done here, no more hunting". He's just "ok lets not do this at public school where it will create a media relations nightmare."

If it was a scenario where her boss was packing it in, than the push could make more sense, as this is her "last chance" to get them. But it wasn't, they pull back, regroup....get them at a less public place. Operations change all the time due to real world circumstances, Deever as a veteran officer would be extremely used to that.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 14, 2022)

Staffan said:


> Deever is clearly the only one who can see these "enhanced individuals" for the menaces that they are, and if her superiors at the Department of Damage Control are asleep at the wheel she might have to go into the private sector and find someone who is more Wideawake.




back when Mutants & Masterminds first came out I played a character based on Blue Marvel. hadnt thought of him for years but your WideAwake reference brought him back.

It would be awesome to see him in The Marvels too…


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> My issue there is, its not a scenario where Deever is the only one at the department who thinks their dangerous, at no point is her boss going "oh yeah we are done here, no more hunting". He's just "ok lets not do this at public school where it will create a media relations nightmare."
> 
> If it was a scenario where her boss was packing it in, than the push could make more sense, as this is her "last chance" to get them. But it wasn't, they pull back, regroup....get them at a less public place. Operations change all the time due to real world circumstances, Deever as a veteran officer would be extremely used to that.




Its clear that there's a post-Snap view in the MCU among parts of officialdom that enhanced individuals are an intrinsic hazard unless "managed".  I'm guessing this version of Damage Control is an offshoot of the part of SWORD that seemed to have that attitude.  But they're obviously getting support to some extent from on-high (and I'm not at all surprised they would).  In this case the only reason the leadership was being a little cautious was because a juvenile was involved; I wonder if the repulsor guns would have been used it it was an adult they were chasing.


----------



## Rune (Jul 14, 2022)

Alternate possibility: Deever doesn’t care about her career because she is a skrull.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 14, 2022)

The problem with Agent Deever is she had all of the depth of a dried-up puddle. We went from the interesting Djinn to her rather quickly and her actions were easily predictable.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 14, 2022)

Rune said:


> Alternate possibility: Deever doesn’t care about her career because she is a skrull.



ALTERNATE- alternate possibility: Deever cares very much about her job, is a 'climber', and thought it was an opportunity to replace her boss.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 14, 2022)

Well, Deever's apparent fanaticism has no grounding even if you consider it an extension of DC's general policy.  That's often a problem with antagonists who only exist to be antagonists.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 14, 2022)

"I'm the antagonist. Can't I antagonize? - The Shadow, "The Gamers: Hands of Fate"


----------



## TwoSix (Jul 14, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I have no problem that her mother created the costume but looking at it from her mother's perspective doesn't work. When was she aware that the red scarf came from the Red Daggers? Most of it, even if I grant you things like the broken necklace, come across to me as very contrived.



Considering there's a gap between episode 5 and episode 6 (enough to fly from Karachi to Jersey City), Kamala probably told her mother about it.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 14, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> ALTERNATE- alternate possibility: Deever cares very much about her job, is a 'climber', and thought it was an opportunity to replace her boss.



When it first started going down, I thought her boss might be calling her off knowing that she’d ignore him so he could tell _his _superiors that she’d disobeyed a direct order - you know, pluasible deniability. 

She lost her job because she failed but I wonder if that still would have been the case had she been successful.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 14, 2022)

pukunui said:


> When it first started going down, I thought her boss might be calling her off knowing that she’d ignore him so he could tell _his _superiors that she’d disobeyed a direct order - you know, pluasible deniability.
> 
> She lost her job because she failed but I wonder if that still would have been the case had she been successful.



Like I posted up-thread: "Success requires no apologies. Failure permits no alibis."


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 15, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> Considering there's a gap between episode 5 and episode 6 (enough to fly from Karachi to Jersey City), Kamala probably told her mother about it.



And this all comes back to my problem, we have to make up reasons for stuff we don't see on screen to justify not turning the costume into the Solo: A Star Wars Tale of the MCU. (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the show but this part was silly).


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 15, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> And this all comes back to my problem, we have to make up reasons for stuff we don't see on screen to justify not turning the costume into the Solo: A Star Wars Tale of the MCU. (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the show but this part was silly).



Meh, Its a trope found in these kinds of stories. I’m happy to shrug off silly things as being fun storytelling conventions that feed in to the mythic narrative of Superhero tales.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 15, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> And this all comes back to my problem, we have to make up reasons for stuff we don't see on screen to justify not turning the costume into the Solo: A Star Wars Tale of the MCU. (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the show but this part was silly).



Didn't bother me at all. (But then I'm probably one of the few people who actually _like_ _Solo_.)


----------



## Davies (Jul 15, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Didn't bother me at all. (But then I'm probably one of the few people who actually _like_ _Solo_.)



You are less alone than you think.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 15, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Didn't bother me at all. (But then I'm probably one of the few people who actually _like_ _Solo_.)



I thought it was okay, but would have been better as a TV series.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 15, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I thought it was okay, but would have been better as a TV series.



Maybe. Obi-Wan's movie probably turned out better as a TV series but I'm not sure Boba Fett's did.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 15, 2022)

Finally got around to watching it, the origin story is complete. I fully expect a repeat of when Ant-man met Cap when Kamala meets Carol in person.


----------



## TwoSix (Jul 15, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> And this all comes back to my problem, we have to make up reasons for stuff we don't see on screen to justify not turning the costume into the Solo: A Star Wars Tale of the MCU. (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the show but this part was silly).



<shrug> The moment worked as an emotional beat, I don’t really understand the need to waste screen time explaining the logistical issues.


----------



## Bolares (Jul 15, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Its clear that there's a post-Snap view in the MCU among parts of officialdom that enhanced individuals are an intrinsic hazard unless "managed".



That's the case since the civil war. The sokovia accords are still a thing.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 15, 2022)

Bolares said:


> That's the case since the civil war. The sokovia accords are still a thing.



Honest question, are they? I haven't heard anything since the Snap that confirmed or denied anything about the Sokovia accords.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 15, 2022)

Bolares said:


> That's the case since the civil war. The sokovia accords are still a thing.




Yup.  Even though I'll argue to this day that Ross had, effectively, one legitimate case of the three he presented; while I argue that Banner and Stark only had a limited fault for Ultron, they didn't have none.  But when the heroes get blamed for the Chitari and Hydra, I just roll my eyes.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 15, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> And this all comes back to my problem, we have to make up reasons for stuff we don't see on screen to justify not turning the costume into the Solo: A Star Wars Tale of the MCU. (don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the show but this part was silly).




I think, after having Mom learn about Kamala's powers and activities with Grandma present, and seeing Mom be pretty happy and relaxed when Kamala reveals herself to the rest of the family, also having to have a separate scene of Kamala giving the detailed history that we all just watched to justify _a costume change_ would have been silly.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 15, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Honest question, are they? I haven't heard anything since the Snap that confirmed or denied anything about the Sokovia accords.




So, the Sokovia Accords are apparently still in force in _WandaVision_ - Agent Woo notes upon seeing (faked) video of Wanda stealing the Vision's corpse that the act is, "in direct violation of Section 36B of the Sokovia Accords.”


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Jul 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I think, after having Mom learn about Kamala's powers and activities with Grandma present, and seeing Mom be pretty happy and relaxed when Kamala reveals herself to the rest of the family, also having to have a separate scene of Kamala giving the detailed history that we all just watched to justify _a costume change_ would have been silly.




Yeah, I don't think you have to make anything up to justify it. You just have to pay attention to the things that they've already told you, and not assume that just because it wasn't on-screen means that it didn't happen.

They didn't have to show us Mom telling her father about it - they showed us the result. They shouldn't have to show Kamala telling Mom more details about her adventure - they showed us that she did.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Jul 15, 2022)

My big disappointment when it comes to Damage Control was that they turned them into just-another-watered-down SHIELD/SWORD/FBI/etc.  In the comics, they are a construction company that's played for comedy that has to go in and repair things just the way it used to be after a superhero battle. 

"Oh yeah, the Statue of Liberty turned into a giant robot and attacked New York, but now we gotta gather the pieces after Thor blew her up, and rebuild her to the tourist trap that she's always been!"

They just made them really boring by comparison. Also, they DID the damage, they didn't fix it!

... A minor complaint, though. In the grand scheme of things, Ms Marvel was great.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 15, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> My big disappointment when it comes to Damage Control was that they turned them into just-another-watered-down SHIELD/SWORD/FBI/etc.  In the comics, they are a construction company that's played for comedy that has to go in and repair things just the way it used to be after a superhero battle.



Sure, but I think the current view of Damage Control fits the times a little better. In the aftermath of the Chitauri invasion of New York, with all that alien tech around, you know the government wouldn't leave it to just a bunch of civilian contracts - hence Spider-Man: Homecoming's appearance of the Vulture.
Hell, even the proliferation of similar governmental departments that don't seem to be entirely cooperating and may overlap is pretty on target.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Jul 15, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Sure, but I think the current view of Damage Control fits the times a little better. In the aftermath of the Chitauri invasion of New York, with all that alien tech around, you know the government wouldn't leave it to just a bunch of civilian contracts - hence Spider-Man: Homecoming's appearance of the Vulture.
> Hell, even the proliferation of similar governmental departments that don't seem to be entirely cooperating and may overlap is pretty on target.




Oh yeah, Marvel's got TONS of those organizations, though. They could have kept Damage Control as it is and used something else. Heck, the guys with those pulse-cannons looked more like Code Blue than they did like DC.


----------



## Bolares (Jul 15, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Honest question, are they? I haven't heard anything since the Snap that confirmed or denied anything about the Sokovia accords.



They are. not every show or movie talks about them, but we see their effects in both wandavision and spiderman no way home.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 15, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Yup.  Even though I'll argue to this day that Ross had, effectively, one legitimate case of the three he presented; while I argue that Banner and Stark only had a limited fault for Ultron, they didn't have none.  But when the heroes get blamed for the Chitari and Hydra, I just roll my eyes.



Well, if Thor hadn't been a gigantic bleepup, he would not have been exiled to Earth, and then he would not have been fighting his brother on the Bifrost leading to Loki falling into Thanos's lap and giving him ideas about putting him in charge of an army with which to conquer Earth. Plus, SHIELD's futzing around with the Tesseract might have been what attracted Loki and the Chitauri in the first place.

And I'd also argue that Banner & Stark were fully responsible for Ultron. They built it, and they were the ones carelessly experimenting with the Mind Stone – to the best of my knowledge, without any oversight whatsoever. And if anyone should be aware of the potential consequences of careless experimentation, it's Bruce Banner.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 15, 2022)

Bolares said:


> They are. not every show or movie talks about them, but we see their effects in both wandavision and spiderman no way home.



I'm pretty sure they also came up in The Falcon & The Winter Soldier.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 15, 2022)

Staffan said:


> Well, if Thor hadn't been a gigantic bleepup, he would not have been exiled to Earth, and then he would not have been fighting his brother on the Bifrost leading to Loki falling into Thanos's lap and giving him ideas about putting him in charge of an army with which to conquer Earth. Plus, SHIELD's futzing around with the Tesseract might have been what attracted Loki and the Chitauri in the first place.




So Thanos wouldn't have just directed someone else to reclaim the Tesserect from Earth?  And in a situation where there was no one to resist?

As to SHIELD--SHIELD is not a collection of superhumans.  Its a transnational spook agency.  It doesn't have anything to do with whether supers are a problem.




Staffan said:


> And I'd also argue that Banner & Stark were fully responsible for Ultron. They built it, and they were the ones carelessly experimenting with the Mind Stone – to the best of my knowledge, without any oversight whatsoever. And if anyone should be aware of the potential consequences of careless experimentation, it's Bruce Banner.




I've heard the argument, and I don't buy it.  They didn't build Ultron; they were doing _preliminary exploration_ of an AI based on the Mind Stone's code architecture.  They were letting a test run (with Jarvis on oversight) for the length of a party.  I think calling the result of that as "fully responsible" is about like calling someone investigating a crashed meteor as "fully responsible" that the Blob crawls out of it.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 15, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> I've heard the argument, and I don't buy it.  They didn't build Ultron; they were doing _preliminary exploration_ of an AI based on the Mind Stone's code architecture.  They were letting a test run (with Jarvis on oversight) for the length of a party.  I think calling the result of that as "fully responsible" is about like calling someone investigating a crashed meteor as "fully responsible" that the Blob crawls out of it.




"Here we have an alien artifact of extreme power that has characteristics of an artificial intelligence!  Let's hook it up to our own AI, and _walk away_."

Seems to fit the basic definition of _negligence_.  And yeah, they are responsible for the results of their negligent actions.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> "Here we have an alien artifact of extreme power that has characteristics of an artificial intelligence!  Let's hook it up to our own AI, and _walk away_."
> 
> Seems to fit the basic definition of _negligence_.  And yeah, they are responsible for the results of their negligent actions.



Yeah, given how quickly things happen in the world of computing, it's pretty negligent, though not sure they'd be able to react in nanoseconds. Setting up more safeguards, perhaps?


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> "Here we have an alien artifact of extreme power that has characteristics of an artificial intelligence!  Let's hook it up to our own AI, and _walk away_."
> 
> Seems to fit the basic definition of _negligence_.  And yeah, they are responsible for the results of their negligent actions.



Agreed. At absolute bare minimum running the tests in an isolated network (aka one that is physical disconnected from the internet or other networks, so there is literally no way to have bleed over into your main system).

Even if Ultron came alive like he did, in a properly isolated system he would never have been able to get out into bodies and the internet. 

Yeah it was pretty gross negliance considering they KNEW they were dealing with an alien intelligence. It was the equivalent of dealing with an alien virus and going "eh we don't need quarantined areas, we can just do it casually here in this lab..... oh my god the world just got a plague um not our fault!!!"


----------



## Bolares (Jul 15, 2022)

Not only that, but Stark decided TO DO IT AGAIN.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Yeah, given how quickly things happen in the world of computing, it's pretty negligent, though not sure they'd be able to react in nanoseconds. Setting up more safeguards, perhaps?




Yeah, like maybe using a system that _doesn't have connection_ to the internet?


----------



## FitzTheRuke (Jul 15, 2022)

I mean, _we_ could guess that something like that might happen, and we don't live in a world where it CAN. They do.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 15, 2022)

was looking at this image this morning and the thought struck me omg good Ms Marvel is Josh Baskin - The Marvels is going to be the MCU version of Big !


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 15, 2022)

Staffan said:


> I'm pretty sure they also came up in The Falcon & The Winter Soldier.



Theyre a part of the Captain America museum display


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I think, after having Mom learn about Kamala's powers and activities with Grandma present, and seeing Mom be pretty happy and relaxed when Kamala reveals herself to the rest of the family, also having to have a separate scene of Kamala giving the detailed history that we all just watched to justify _a costume change_ would have been silly.



I don't disagree and think such an explanation would have been out of place. I just thought that that the little references to where all of the bits and pieces of her costume came from were also silly, or at least didn't add much to the story.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> "Here we have an alien artifact of extreme power that has characteristics of an artificial intelligence!  Let's hook it up to our own AI, and _walk away_."
> 
> Seems to fit the basic definition of _negligence_.  And yeah, they are responsible for the results of their negligent actions.




"Let's hook it up to our extremely capable AI so it can monitor its status, and then notify us if anything is changing".

Frankly, it Jarvis didn't have time to tell them, I have little sign they'd have had any more time to do anything if they were watching.  Leaving Jarvis to watch it was not negligent  from where I sit; it was taking due diligence.  It just didn't work.

You can argue as to whether they should have poked at it at all--Stark presented his argument as why, but you don't have to buy it--but once they did they did everything reasonable far as I can tell.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Yeah, given how quickly things happen in the world of computing, it's pretty negligent, though not sure they'd be able to react in nanoseconds. Setting up more safeguards, perhaps?




Well, you can argue they could have done more of a black box setup, but that's essentially getting into fighting genre conventions (where in this kind of situation, all that would have done was take up more screen time and still fail).


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 15, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Agreed. At absolute bare minimum running the tests in an isolated network (aka one that is physical disconnected from the internet or other networks, so there is literally no way to have bleed over into your main system).




Really?  The thing generated by the Mind Stone?  You sure about that?


----------



## Umbran (Jul 15, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> You can argue as to whether they should have poked at it at all--Stark presented his argument as why, but you don't have to buy it--but once they did they did everything reasonable far as I can tell.




No, they didn't.  Even today, without super-science, when working on an unknown system that might contain malware, you do so disconnected from any and all networks so whatever is there cannot spread.  They failed to take even basic cybersecurity measures.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 15, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, like maybe using a system that _doesn't have connection_ to the internet?



I'd take it a step further, given WiFi, Bluetooth, etc., and say at bare minimum Faraday Cage. Someone getting too close with a cell phone could be the end of the world.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 15, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Really?  The thing generated by the Mind Stone?  You sure about that?



Sure? Of course not, however, they could have taken even rudimentary precautions instead of providing it with an easy route out, another programme to cannibalize, etc.. no even a sandboxed system?

_EDIT_ - Then again I'm frequently disappointed by the lack of basic knowledge that's displayed in any of my fields of knowledge, in most media. It has to be quite egregious before it takes me right out of it, but it happens. Stuff that takes literally 30 seconds of Google search to know. (Hell, I'm still cheesed off at how the motorcycle tires in MI2 miraculously keep switching back and forth between DOT street and off-road knobby tires in a single chase/fight scene.)


----------



## Umbran (Jul 15, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I'd take it a step further, given WiFi, Bluetooth, etc., and say at bare minimum Faraday Cage. Someone getting too close with a cell phone could be the end of the world.




What you do in this case is you put a copy of Jarvis on a box that lacks any wifi, bluetooth, or other transmitter hardware.  Yes, that means you need to use a hardwire keyboard and mouse, and all peripherals used to probe the stone are wired, not wireless.   In a sci-fi world like this, you run that box off an independent generator that also has no connectivity (so, no encoding signals sent out over power lines).

When your experiment is done, you turn off the Jarvis box, and use your repulsors to melt it into slag.


----------



## Staffan (Jul 15, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> You can argue as to whether they should have poked at it at all--Stark presented his argument as why, but you don't have to buy it--but once they did they did everything reasonable far as I can tell.



And there's the problem. *Stark* made the call. He didn't consult with anyone else (other than his sciencebro Banner). He knew he wouldn't have custody of the scepter for long, and he wanted to use it to build the Ultron project to "put a suite of armor around the world". He doesn't tell anyone other than Banner, because he doesn't "have time for a city hall debate" and he doesn't want to hear "the man was not meant to meddle medley". In other words, he *knows* that what he is doing is risky, and that many of his teammates would object, and he decides to go on anyway. Any consequences of that falls squarely on his (and Banner's) head(s).

And given the physical manifestations of the Mind Stone AI and of Jarvis in the lab, and seeing various machinery start churning, there would definitely have been the opportunity to stop things before they got out of hand, had someone just been monitoring things. But no, Stark and Banner went to a party instead, leaving the alien AI unattended.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 16, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Sure? Of course not, however, they could have taken even rudimentary precautions instead of providing it with an easy route out, another programme to cannibalize, etc.. no even a sandboxed system?
> 
> _EDIT_ - Then again I'm frequently disappointed by the lack of basic knowledge that's displayed in any of my fields of knowledge, in most media. It has to be quite egregious before it takes me right out of it, but it happens. Stuff that takes literally 30 seconds of Google search to know. (Hell, I'm still cheesed off at how the motorcycle tires in MI2 miraculously keep switching back and forth between DOT street and off-road knobby tires in a single chase/fight scene.)




If you want to argue that most movies do some pretty off-hand things with handling of computer security, you wouldn't get an argument from me.
My take is that Tony took what seemed like good precautions in the context of the genre and medium at hand but things got out of hand in a bigger and more rapid way than he could have (again, given those two qualifiers) expected.  Its easier to argue it was wrongheaded from the get-go, but he was still obsessed with what he forsaw coming in from space at some point (and in that regard, its not like he was exactly wrong).
But as I said, I'm willing to give the nod to some culpability there, since he did light the fuse, just not to the degree others are.  On the other hand, blaming supers generically for either the Chitari invasion or the Hydra blowup on them does not even vaguely pass the sniff test.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 16, 2022)

Staffan said:


> And there's the problem. *Stark* made the call. He didn't consult with anyone else (other than his sciencebro Banner). He knew he wouldn't have custody of the scepter for long, and he wanted to use it to build the Ultron project to "put a suite of armor around the world". He doesn't tell anyone other than Banner, because he doesn't "have time for a city hall debate" and he doesn't want to hear "the man was not meant to meddle medley". In other words, he *knows* that what he is doing is risky, and that many of his teammates would object, and he decides to go on anyway. Any consequences of that falls squarely on his (and Banner's) head(s).




Not gonna agree.  Expected risk is an issue too, and I don't think he could have reasonably expected the degree of problem he got.




Staffan said:


> And given the physical manifestations of the Mind Stone AI and of Jarvis in the lab, and seeing various machinery start churning, there would definitely have been the opportunity to stop things before they got out of hand, had someone just been monitoring things. But no, Stark and Banner went to a party instead, leaving the alien AI unattended.




I'm not sold by the time Ultron fried Jarvis, there was going to be much of anything anyone could do to stop him.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 16, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Sure? Of course not, however, they could have taken even rudimentary precautions instead of providing it with an easy route out, another programme to cannibalize, etc.. no even a sandboxed system?
> 
> _EDIT_ - Then again I'm frequently disappointed by the lack of basic knowledge that's displayed in any of my fields of knowledge, in most media. It has to be quite egregious before it takes me right out of it, but it happens. Stuff that takes literally 30 seconds of Google search to know. (Hell, I'm still cheesed off at how the motorcycle tires in MI2 miraculously keep switching back and forth between DOT street and off-road knobby tires in a single chase/fight scene.)



The first time I recall really noticing this was during the TV show 24. Everyone on the show used a Sprint cell phone and, at the time, Sprint (my employer then) was a CDMA carrier and didn't use SIM cards but they were constantly referring to the phones SIM cards in the show. It was never enough to take me out of the show, probably because 24 was so over the top already, but I always thought it was a mistake that could be easily avoided.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 16, 2022)

Umbran said:


> No, they didn't.  Even today, without super-science, when working on an unknown system that might contain malware, you do so disconnected from any and all networks so whatever is there cannot spread.  They failed to take even basic cybersecurity measures.



Maybe this is just Stark's arrogance at play? It's a stretch because he should know better but it's the best reason I can come up with.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 16, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Maybe this is just Stark's arrogance at play? It's a stretch because he should know better but it's the best reason I can come up with.




That certainly plays a big role in it.

But also his trauma.  He is very, very scared of threats to the world.  He really does want to put a suit of armor around the world, and (at that time) would not allow anyone, or anything - including simple good sense - get in the way of that goal.

Which brings us back around to Damage Control, actually.  They are very, very afraid of people with superpowers...


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 16, 2022)

New game coming out where you play as rival clean-up teams, all from Damage Control:









						PRE-ORDER - Marvel: Damage Control
					

PRE-ORDER NOTICE: This is a Pre-Order item and will NOT ship until the product release date. Pre-Order release dates always subjected to change. If you include Pre-Order items in your order, the entire order will be held until all pre-orders become available. If you would like to receive each...




					shop.wizkids.com


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 16, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Really?  The thing generated by the Mind Stone?  You sure about that?



Nope, according to everything we know it couldn't work, but could some alien super intelligence figure it out. Sure....maybe they use atomic resonance or black body radiation or some other crazy thing to communicate beyond the black box.

Which is fine, I mean the goal is to have the plot happen. But now you have the plot happen because of the cunning of the villain, not the stupidity of the hero. And it reduces Stark's liability, yes it still happened on his watch, but any IT security professional could have looked at his settings and gone, "damn that's pretty good security". As opposed to, "oh yeah he could have done this, and this, and this, etc etc"


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 16, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> I'm not sold by the time Ultron fried Jarvis, there was going to be much of anything anyone could do to stop him.



I will agree with this. Though I think Stark's preparations were criminally negligent, once Ultron got past the defenses and attacked Jarvis, I think the speed of reaction was probably beyond Stark's ability to stop him.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 16, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Really?  The thing generated by the Mind Stone?  You sure about that?



The Thing? I didn't think we got the Fantastic Four yet


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 16, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> The first time I recall really noticing this was during the TV show 24. Everyone on the show used a Sprint cell phone and, at the time, Sprint (my employer then) was a CDMA carrier and didn't use SIM cards but they were constantly referring to the phones SIM cards in the show. It was never enough to take me out of the show, probably because 24 was so over the top already, but I always thought it was a mistake that could be easily avoided.



For me it's also every time that someone puts on a motorcycle helmet, but doesn't do up the strap. And have you ever tried riding a motorcycle at anything over a walking pace without a helmet, or at least a pair of glasses?


----------



## Marc Radle (Jul 16, 2022)

Wow … at what point did this thread completely stop being about Ms. Marvel ???


----------



## Umbran (Jul 16, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Not gonna agree.  Expected risk is an issue too, and I don't think he could have reasonably expected the degree of problem he got.




Alien artifact.  Controls people's minds.  Contains structures that themselves look like a mind.  Shouldn't expect high risk?  Really?

Meanwhile, by this time we have had all three Iron Man movies, and in every one of them, Tony's arrogance or rash decisions have largely created the problem he then has to solve with extreme violence.

So, he should be highly accustomed to the degree of problem he got.  His refusal to discuss this with the team is acknowledgement of this pattern.  Tony is the poster boy for being more concerned with whether he could do a thing, and not considering whether he should do the thing.

I give Tony credit for having good intentions, but the road to heck is paved in those.


----------



## Rabulias (Jul 16, 2022)

Also, remember Tony's fear and trauma was recently resurfaced and amplified by Wanda shortly before.
Back to on topic: I too feel the Clandestine storyline resolved too quickly with Najma's turn coming out of nowhere. Overall another episode hinting at Najma being torn about her plan and Kamran might have given it enough breathing room to work better. Still I enjoyed the series very much, and I look forward to _The Marvels_ next year and would be happy to see another season of _Ms. Marvel_.


----------



## Richards (Jul 16, 2022)

Likewise, I'd be willing to give _Ms. Marvel_ season two a try, because in episode six it _finally_ delivered what I had been waiting all season to see: a big superhero fight with her using her powers in interesting ways.  I gave episodes one and two a pass because she was just learning about her powers, but episodes three through five bored the tears out of me.  (My 15-year-old nephew, who my grown son and I talked into watching it with us because the previews looked good, bailed after the third episode and I couldn't really blame him.  We stuck around hoping it would get better and because we wanted to see the groundwork being laid for _The Marvels_.)  I guess my biggest problem was I came in expecting a superhero show and this was first and foremost a coming of age show with some superhero trappings that were apparently a much lower priority to the creators of the show.  But I really like the main actress - especially when she's in her geeking-out-over-superheroes mode, which she does a great job of - and I liked some of the little touches (like her running through the air on her hard-light float-disks and patiently waiting for the streetlight below her to turn green), and they put a lot of their special-effects budget into her actually using her "embiggening" powers in the fights at the end.  So yeah, I'm ready for more of superhero Kamala, both in a second season of this show and in _The Marvels_, and I hope they keep her in superhero mode and less in "moping about her family" mode, which got boring pretty quickly.  (And I'm sure the scene where Kamala, her mother, and her grandmother all hugged was supposed to be a big emotional payoff, but I was more, "Okay, good, everybody's friends now - can we get to a fight scene now?  Please?")

Johnathan


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 16, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Alien artifact.  Controls people's minds.  Contains structures that themselves look like a mind.  Shouldn't expect high risk?  Really?




One that his supervisory AI couldn't handle?  No.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 16, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Maybe this is just Stark's arrogance at play? It's a stretch because he should know better but it's the best reason I can come up with.



Absolutely this,  the entire ‘phase 1 plot arc’ is the the redemption of Tony Stark and quite frankly up until the destruction of Sokovia Tony Stark can easily fit in the list of MCU villains - he’s an arrogant, self entitled jerk, who knows he’s cleverer than everyone else, beleives he has the right to do what he chooses and misuses his technology (_sounds like Doctor Doom)._
The creation of Ultron is a response to Tonys extreme paranoia (PTSD?) But also his autocratic traits of not needing to tell anyone else before doing something so dangerous.
 its ony when that fails too and Tony is at his lowest that he finally accepts the oversight of the Sokovia Accords. His redemption finally comes in the Infinity Saga.
sure Ironman is used to put right each of Tony’s mistakes but he keeps making those mistakes- and now Damage Control seems to be following the same paranoid legacy.

one thing people have raised is that the new phase of the MCU seems to be a bit anchorless atm, phase 1 -3 was tightly bound up as Iron Mans story, the question is where is Ms Marvel taking us next?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 16, 2022)

Since the talk about the end credit has been split between Kamala and Carol switching place or Kamala morphing into Carol, as happened in the comic book, the producer has clarified:



> Producer Bisha K Ali has clarified the nature of Larson's appearance in the post-credit scene of Ms Marvel, confirming that "Kamala doesn't turn into Carol." As many had theorized, the two switched places, which is an "important distinction" as Kamala has shape-shifted into Danvers in the comics in the past:
> 
> "Correct. It’s an important distinction, just because in the comic books, that’s something that [Kamala] does —  she can change the way she looks, and she looks like Carol Danvers in Issue 1 of the comic book. She’s not turning into Carol [on the show]. That’s Carol Danvers standing in Kamala’s bedroom."


----------



## Richards (Jul 17, 2022)

I wouldn't have expected anything different, considering the MCU version of Ms. Marvel doesn't have the ability to alter her form in any way, merely project crystalline hard-light shapes.  Having her turn into Carol Danvers would be showing a power we've never seen her having, and one that doesn't seem to fit nicely into what we've seen she can do.

Johnathan


----------



## Umbran (Jul 17, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> One that his supervisory AI couldn't handle?  No.




Which is why his major flaw is hubris.  He is responsible for the results of his flaws.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 17, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Which is why his major flaw is hubris.  He is responsible for the results of his flaws.




I'm not going to stop being of the opinion that there's an important difference of degree here.  Do you really want to go around about it again?


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 17, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> One that his supervisory AI couldn't handle?  No.



You mean the supervisory AI that Tony Stark directly compared to the mind stone, and said "now meet the upgrade" (or something to that effect). He literally quoted as saying the mind stone AI was superior to Jarvis.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 17, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> You mean the supervisory AI that Tony Stark directly compared to the mind stone, and said "now meet the upgrade" (or something to that effect). He literally quoted as saying the mind stone AI was superior to Jarvis.




So?  You can be a superior fighter to me but if you start out in manacles and me with a truncheon, its still reasonable to expect I can keep the situation under control.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 17, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> So?  You can be a superior fighter to me but if you start out in manacles and me with a truncheon, its still reasonable to expect I can keep the situation under control.



I believe the operative expression here is "hubris."


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 17, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I believe the operative expression here is "hubris."




I don't deny that.  What I've said is that Stark took some precautions.  They weren't sufficient, and in retrospect everyone including him concludes he should have taken it slower.

But there's context here.  Stark is not just going "Oh, I have this alien artifact and possible alien AI here, and I'll see where it goes."  No, he's going "there's a train coming, and I don't think I have anything that can stop it."  And he doesn't know how long before it gets there.  And in regard to his sense he doesn't have the tools for the job, he's not wrong.

This is, of course, played out in the frame of Stark's arrogance, but when you pay attention to part of that and ignore the other half, you're not properly describing the situation.


----------



## Marc Radle (Jul 17, 2022)

Folks, seriously .. create a new thread to talk about Tony Stark and Iron Man if you want, but please stop hijacking this thread about Ms. Marvel!

Pretty EnWorld has rules about not threadcrapping, if only a moderator was around to enforce it …


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 17, 2022)

Those weapons used by Damage Control made me think they were born out of the same line of weapons from Stark Industries that Ross used on the Hulk at Culver University.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 17, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Those weapons used by Damage Control made me think they were born out of the same line of weapons from Stark Industries that Ross used on the Hulk at Culver University.




They seem pretty clearly to be repulsor based weaponry.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 17, 2022)

Marc Radle said:


> Pretty EnWorld has rules about not threadcrapping, if only a moderator was around to enforce it …




In setting up a zinger, you've apparently missed that what is happening here is not what we consider threadcrapping.  Discussions normally experience some topic drift.  It is actually a valuable part of discussion.  

When topic has drifted significantly, we may well support _polite_ requests to pull things back on topic.  Snark is much less persuasive.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 17, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> They seem pretty clearly to be repulsor based weaponry.



Yeah, and i just remembered the others are sonic-based.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 17, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Those weapons used by Damage Control made me think they were born out of the same line of weapons from Stark Industries that Ross used on the Hulk at Culver University.



Yeah absolutely, and considering that Damage Control was a joint partnership between Govt and Stark Industries then absolutely theyre using Stark Tech but then in the MCU isnt everyone using Stark Tech?.

which does bring up the question - whats up with Stark Industires, is Peppa still in charge? 
and does she know whats going, on first with Visions body (patent owned by Stark Industries) and now with Damage Controls more militant enforcement approach?


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 17, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah absolutely, and considering that Damage Control was a joint partnership between Govt and Stark Industries then absolutely theyre using Stark Tech but then in the MCU isnt everyone using Stark Tech?.
> 
> which does bring up the question - whats up with Stark Industires, is Peppa still in charge?
> and does she know whats going, on first with Visions body (patent owned by Stark Industries) and now with Damage Controls more militant enforcement approach?



Pepper is likely still the CEO but there are many layers between the C level execs, and the street level operations. Stark didn't know a lot of what was going on.

I expect that even with Justin Hammer going to prison, there are likely still a lot of people using Hammer Tech's budget Stark wannabe equipment. There will be a lot of different players in the arms industry, just as there are today.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 17, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Yeah absolutely, and considering that Damage Control was a joint partnership between Govt and Stark Industries then absolutely theyre using Stark Tech but then in the MCU isnt everyone using Stark Tech?.
> 
> which does bring up the question - whats up with Stark Industires, is Peppa still in charge?




I suspect you'll have to wait until Armor Wars to get much answer to that.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 17, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Pepper is likely still the CEO but there are many layers between the C level execs, and the street level operations. Stark didn't know a lot of what was going on.




Note the situation with Mysterio.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 17, 2022)

Which begs the question where did Kamala go?


----------



## pukunui (Jul 18, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Which begs the question where did Kamala go?



Yeah, we’ve been talking about that upthread. Some speculation on the Negative Zone. I reckon it’s more likely she’s on some other planet. (They won’t have her floating in space unless she can survive in a hard vacuum like Carol can).


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 18, 2022)

Also, Carol has changed hairstyles again, don't let Rocket know lol


----------



## Mallus (Jul 18, 2022)

My big takeaway from the first season is maybe the Karachi stuff would have worked better in the second season. The two opening episodes did such a great job establishing Kamala in Jersey City; putting a character in a place like all good fiction is supposed to do (well, most), bringing both to life that when the action moved to Karachi it felt jarring. Something was lost.

I get the themes being explored, and the Karachi section was just as well shot as the stuff in Jersey, but I would preferred a hyper-local first season. Pakistan would have hit harder after a whole season in the Garden State (where the show wasn’t actually filmed, I understan).

Full Disclosure: I grew up not too far from Jersey City, so I could be biased!


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 18, 2022)

Mallus said:


> My big takeaway from the first season is maybe the Karachi stuff would have worked better in the second season. The two opening episodes did such a great job establishing Kamala in Jersey City; putting a character in a place like all good fiction is supposed to do (well, most), bringing both to life that when the action moved to Karachi it felt jarring. Something was lost.



I will agree with this, the transition did feel jarring. Now narratively it did work, it did connect Kamala with some of her heritage, and gave her and her mother a chance to bond.... but it also consumed a fair bit of time, and probably could have been mostly handled in the Jersey setting without too much trouble.

Than second season could be mostly focused on Karachi.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 18, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Yeah, we’ve been talking about that upthread. Some speculation on the Negative Zone. I reckon it’s more likely she’s on some other planet. (They won’t have her floating in space unless she can survive in a hard vacuum like Carol can).



They might have transported her to the SWORD space station - where she”ll meet Fury etc. Carol didnt look overly discombobulated by being transported to Kamalas bedroom so I assume she wasnt on some critical mission in deep space when it happened.

Taking her to the space station is narratively a much easier way to get her in a team up without endangering her too much too


----------



## pukunui (Jul 18, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> They might have transported her to the SWORD space station - where she”ll meet Fury etc. Carol didnt look overly discombobulated by being transported to Kamalas bedroom so I assume she wasnt on some critical mission in deep space when it happened.
> 
> Taking her to the space station is narratively a much easier way to get her in a team up without endangering her too much too



Maybe! It sucks that we have to wait a whole year to find out ...


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 18, 2022)

If they follow their normal schedule for this stuff, we should get the behind the scenes/making of episode this week for Ms Marvel. I think this one will be even more entertaining than most. But besides that, I can't believe we have to go a full month with nothing for Marvel or Star Wars. But then we will get two shows at once again when Andor starts during the 3rd week of She-Hulk.


----------



## Janx (Jul 18, 2022)

We enjoyed the finale. though the thin blue line could've put up stiffer resistance to getting past them. I guess that's also on point.

I also noticed nobody's talking about Bruno. Or his unrequited love. Or the DC brutality when that cop hit him in the face with the butt of his gun.

Great show and a lot of fun.


----------



## Hex08 (Jul 18, 2022)

Janx said:


> I also noticed nobody's talking about Bruno. Or his unrequited love.



I thought this was an odd bit of storytelling. It makes me wonder if part of that story was left on the cutting room floor.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 18, 2022)

Janx said:


> I also noticed nobody's talking about Bruno. Or his unrequited love. Or the DC brutality when that cop hit him in the face with the butt of his gun.




We don't talk about Bruno!!!!

hehe there is a scene right in the last episode where Bruno hands Kamala a note....so might have been a "feelings" share. Possibly something for season 2.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 18, 2022)

Janx said:


> We enjoyed the finale. though the thin blue line could've put up stiffer resistance to getting past them. I guess that's also on point.




To be fair, they'd have to be reaaaly sure they were in the right for a local police agency to want to completely block a federal one.  The fact they even put in the effort that they did is kind of impressive.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 18, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I thought this was an odd bit of storytelling. It makes me wonder if part of that story was left on the cutting room floor.




Either that or its a setup for later.  Like the whole business with Kareem calling him Byron, not because he's being dismissive but because he heard it wrong and has never caught corrections.  It puts him in a very different light with the "I've been calling you by the wrong name this whole time?!"


----------



## Janx (Jul 18, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Either that or its a setup for later.  Like the whole business with Kareem calling him Byron, not because he's being dismissive but because he heard it wrong and has never caught corrections.  It puts him in a very different light with the "I've been calling you by the wrong name this whole time?!"



Or they were nodding to and stepping past a lot of negative tropes.

the white guy usually gets the brown girl. Not this time.

The white guy usually gets the brown person's name wrong. Not this time.

The guy with unrequited feelings becomes the angry incel. Not this time.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 18, 2022)

Janx said:


> Or they were nodding to and stepping past a lot of negative tropes.
> 
> the white guy usually gets the brown girl. Not this time.
> 
> ...




Any or all also entirely possible.


----------



## Rune (Jul 18, 2022)

Janx said:


> Or they were nodding to and stepping past a lot of negative tropes.
> 
> the white guy usually gets the brown girl. Not this time.
> 
> ...



_Or_, they were providing an accurate depiction of what it’s like to be a nerdy guy in high school.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 18, 2022)

Rune said:


> _Or_, they were providing an accurate depiction of what it’s like to be a nerdy guy in high school.



... who is never really paid attention to by the popular kids.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 18, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> ... who is never really paid attention to by the popular kids.



Though that kid has a lady gold mine on his hands with those cosplay gloves. You show a girl that you can help her make beautiful badass costumes, you are in like flynn!


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 18, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Though that kid has a lady gold mine on his hands with those cosplay gloves. You show a girl that you can help her make beautiful badass costumes, you are in like flynn!



I am aware of this concept


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 18, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Though that kid has a lady gold mine on his hands with those cosplay gloves. You show a girl that you can help her make beautiful badass costumes, you are in like flynn!




They kind of showed that sometimes nerds have not caught up with the fact their interests may not be as narrow as they once were in regard to who is interested in in the form of the form of Zoe.  But sometimes people haven't realized how much spread there has been, particularly in a lot of media fandom.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 18, 2022)

Janx said:


> I also noticed nobody's talking about Bruno. Or his unrequited love.




I don't know. While he may be feeling something for Kamala, I am expecting him and Nakia to fall for each other. They are the same age and both going to Cal Tech for college, while Kamala is a year or two younger and still in high school in New Jersey.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 18, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't know. While he may be feeling something for Kamala, I am expecting him and Nakia to fall for each other. They are the same age and both going to Cal Tech for college, while Kamala is a year or two younger and still in high school in New Jersey.



I thought Nakia and Zoe were getting freindly in that last episode too, unlikely given the religious background, but the past few Marvel movies have been open to it.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 18, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I thought Nakia and Zoe were getting freindly in that last episode too, unlikely given the religious background, but the past few Marvel movies have been open to it.



There was some to me ambiguous language used there, mainly the word ally and Zoe being fully supportive.


----------



## pukunui (Jul 18, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't know. While he may be feeling something for Kamala, I am expecting him and Nakia to fall for each other. They are the same age and both going to Cal Tech for college, while Kamala is a year or two younger and still in high school in New Jersey.



Wait, when did they indicate that Nakia was also going to Cal Tech? I must have missed that.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jul 18, 2022)

pukunui said:


> Wait, when did they indicate that Nakia was also going to Cal Tech? I must have missed that.




End of episode 6 in the One Week Later bit.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 18, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> There was some to me ambiguous language used there, mainly the word ally and Zoe being fully supportive.




Could have been intended in a racial sense.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 18, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Could have been intended in a racial sense.



That was my impression.


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 18, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Could have been intended in a racial sense.



That's why I said ambiguous, but i think you are right.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 19, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Could have been intended in a racial sense.



Yeah, that is far more likely. 
Its just that I had watched Love & Thunder right before the episode so was fresh in my mind.


----------



## Rabulias (Jul 19, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Either that or its a setup for later.  Like the whole business with *Kareem *calling him Byron, not because he's being dismissive but because he heard it wrong and has never caught corrections.  It puts him in a very different light with the "I've been calling you by the wrong name this whole time?!"



I saw what you did there.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 19, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I saw what you did there.




Did I mess up his name there?  Because if I did, I'd love to claim it was deliberate, but I can't.


----------



## Nikosandros (Jul 19, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> Did I mess up his name there?  Because if I did, I'd love to claim it was deliberate, but I can't.



It's Kamram who keeps getting Bruno's name wrong, I don't think that Bruno and Kareem meet. Also, the wrong name he uses is Brian.  DISCLAIMER: I used subtitles while watching it.


----------



## Bagpuss (Jul 19, 2022)

Umbran said:


> For being the wrong religion.  The partition of the British colony into India and Pakistan was along non-Muslim/Muslim lines.  Between 10 and 20 million people were displaced.




Erm wasn't she talking about being exiled from the Noor dimension at that point. As far as I am aware the British didn't colonise the Noor dimension (I mean we would if we had known about it).


----------



## trappedslider (Jul 27, 2022)

one of us one of us


----------



## Thomas Shey (Jul 27, 2022)

Well, that's been very obvious from almost every quote that's come out of her.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 27, 2022)

So do we start a poll asking which account(s) is/are hers on ENWorld?


----------



## billd91 (Jul 27, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> one of us one of us



That kid is adorable.


----------



## Gradine (Jul 27, 2022)

She is very very good in the show. Probably some of the best casting in the MCU, which is saying something


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 27, 2022)

Gradine said:


> She is very very good in the show. Probably some of the best casting in the MCU, which is saying something



Even better than Robert Downey Jr. playing Robert Downey Jr.


----------



## Tonguez (Jul 27, 2022)

Bagpuss said:


> As far as I am aware the British didn't colonise the Noor dimension (I mean we would if we had known about it).



well, there is a certain large diamond that was obtained by Queen Victoria.
(and according to Doctor Who it could be used to kill Werewolves)


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## trappedslider (Jul 27, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> So do we start a poll asking which account(s) is/are hers on ENWorld?



first, we start a poll "Do you think she has an account here"


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## Ryujin (Jul 28, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> first, we start a poll "Do you think she has an account here"



Some things I'm willing to assume, for the chance at rampant and groundless speculation.


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## fba827 (Jul 30, 2022)

As someone with an understanding of the specific cultures and internal conflicts that come from such culture-intersections, my perspective of the show is different than most.  So I found it interesting to read this thread and see what take aways and assumptions were made (ie things obvious to me and seeing if they were obvious to others) .  I appreciate the insights that have been shared


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## Henadic Theologian (Jul 30, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> I enjoyed it . Very snappy pace.
> 
> Really liked the dad




 It's really nice when I see really good, positive fatherly role models. Hollywood seems to hate Dads, so it's refreshing that he's not a jerk or stupid, but a loving, good, wise father he loves he's daughter darely.

 So much Peter Parker vibes in terms of morality and ethics, compared to say Iron Man, Thor, or ironically Captain Marvel.


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## Henadic Theologian (Jul 30, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I don't know. While he may be feeling something for Kamala, I am expecting him and Nakia to fall for each other. They are the same age and both going to Cal Tech for college, while Kamala is a year or two younger and still in high school in New Jersey.




 Bruno only seems to have eyes for Kamala, but I think he's a long term love interest for her, not yet.

 I think her next love interest will be Peter Parker, they just have way too much in common, simular morals, both sacrifice a romantic relationship for that persons safety and well being. The big difference is Kamala still has her family while Peter has no one now sadly.

 There are various things in Ms. Marvel connecting her to Spider-man pt there by Kevin Feige, it's no accident or a cheap call out to the bug movie, it's part of a bigger plan to hook them up I believe.


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## Henadic Theologian (Jul 31, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> I thought Nakia and Zoe were getting freindly in that last episode too, unlikely given the religious background, but the past few Marvel movies have been open to it.




 Why would it be unlikely,they go to the same school and share a huge secret. People have bonded over less.


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## trappedslider (Sep 14, 2022)

Her face!


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## Aeson (Sep 15, 2022)

I would have the same look on my face if I were cradled in Brie Larson's arms AND standing in front of Harrison Ford. I'd also have same look if I was cradled in Brie Larson's arms OR Standing in front of Harrison Ford. Or just in Brie Larson's arms.


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## Tonguez (Sep 15, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I would have the same look on my face if I were cradled in Brie Larson's arms AND standing in front of Harrison Ford. I'd also have same look if I was cradled in Brie Larson's arms OR Standing in front of Harrison Ford. Or just in Brie Larson's arms.



Is that what the kids call Thirsty?


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## Aeson (Sep 15, 2022)

Tonguez said:


> Is that what the kids call Thirsty?



I have a reputation of being the thirstiest person on ENWorld.


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## Rabulias (Sep 15, 2022)

Hmmm... now that Han Solo's story is done, and he is working on the final Indiana Jones, I wonder if Ford might find a place in the MCU? With the loss of William Hurt , we need another Secretary of Defense...


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## Tonguez (Sep 15, 2022)

Harrison Ford ‘in talks to enter MCU in Fantastic Four reboot role’
					

HARRISON FORD, who is returning as Indiana Jones next year, is reportedly in talks for a specific role in the MCU's Fantastic Four movie.




					www.express.co.uk
				



potential spoiler - character speculation


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