# New Rise of Skywalker trailer



## Morrus (Aug 26, 2019)

I am confident in my prediction that the "twist" near the end of the trailer is a fake-out, as that would be a twist in the actual film if it were what it appears to be.


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## Dioltach (Aug 26, 2019)

Judging from this trailer, there will be even more accusations of "rehashing the previous movies" than with TFA.


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## jonesy (Aug 26, 2019)

Darth Maul is Rey's father?


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## lowkey13 (Aug 26, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Istbor (Aug 26, 2019)

Interesante.

But what does it all mean!?! This just breeds more questions.


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## MarkB (Aug 26, 2019)

I for one welcome our new overlord Darth Threepio.


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## Umbran (Aug 26, 2019)

Istbor said:


> This just breeds more questions.




Well, that is the point.  So, sounds like a successful trailer to me.


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## ccs (Aug 26, 2019)

All this trailer did was make me want to watch ANH/ESB/RotJ again.


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## Morrus (Aug 26, 2019)

ccs said:


> All this trailer did was make me want to watch ANH/ESB/RotJ again.




Again, success. Sounds like a successful trailer!


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## ccs (Aug 26, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Again, success. Sounds like a successful trailer!




Not really.  They're aiming to get me to spend $ come Dec.
All I have to do for IV/V/VI is walk over to my  shelf this evening.


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## Morrus (Aug 26, 2019)

ccs said:


> Not really.  They're aiming to get me to spend $ come Dec.
> All I have to do for IV/V/VI is walk over to my  shelf this evening.




They’re playing the long game. You’ll watch it.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 26, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## MarkB (Aug 26, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Change terrifies me as well.
> 
> Fun fact! Someone discussing ANH (1977) today would be like someone in 1982 discussing how they don't like modern movies, because His Girl Friday is showing.



In which case, this trailer is like someone in 1982 trying to stir up interest in the latest Star Wars movie by showing clips from old Flash Gordon serials.


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2019)

well not a fake out 

Ridley admitted she was shocked that her character’s dark side reveal was included in the footage. 
“I went to Bad Robot yesterday and I was like, ‘Hey, can I see the teaser’? They were like, ‘Yeah, yeah.’ No warning. And I watch, and went [inhales deeply] ‘Oh my god, are you really putting that in there?’ That was my reaction,” Ridley told CinemaBlend. “And then watching it today, it was weird because I felt nervous with it coming because I knew it was going to be. And then hearing the audience reaction was amazing.”

so maybe a battle for Rey's soul?


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 26, 2019)

I will never not be disapointed that they didn't give Rey a lightsaber pike.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 26, 2019)

MarkB said:


> In which case, this trailer is like someone in 1982 trying to stir up interest in the latest Star Wars movie by showing clips from old Flash Gordon serials.



Nah. It's more like if they used Flash Gordon clips that remind the audience of the best moments of the serials as part of the trailer for a movie that takes place after the serials, and then showed really good clips from said upcoming movie.


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## MarkB (Aug 26, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> well not a fake out
> 
> Ridley admitted she was shocked that her character’s dark side reveal was included in the footage.
> “I went to Bad Robot yesterday and I was like, ‘Hey, can I see the teaser’? They were like, ‘Yeah, yeah.’ No warning. And I watch, and went [inhales deeply] ‘Oh my god, are you really putting that in there?’ That was my reaction,” Ridley told CinemaBlend. “And then watching it today, it was weird because I felt nervous with it coming because I knew it was going to be. And then hearing the audience reaction was amazing.”
> ...



Um, all that quote does is confirm that the scene is in the movie. It tells us nothing more about the context of the scene.


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## Istbor (Aug 26, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Well, that is the point.  So, sounds like a successful trailer to me.



Indeed. 

Hopefully, I will get to finish out the saga for free as well! Go Go vendor funded events!


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Um, all that quote does is confirm that the scene is in the movie. It tells us nothing more about the context of the scene.




True, which unless I misunderstood the term "fake out" I was mainly saying that yes it's in the final movie.


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## Istbor (Aug 26, 2019)

ccs said:


> All this trailer did was make me want to watch ANH/ESB/RotJ again.




This is the movie that is the ending to the saga we all know. So it makes sense that they went with a "brief recap of prior events" direction. Then finished it with tidbits from the next installment.


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## ccs (Aug 26, 2019)

Morrus said:


> They’re playing the long game. You’ll watch it.




Maybe.  But if I do - before it hits Disney+ - that means i'll have pirated it.  (Though theres the question of why I'd bother pirating something I won't enjoy....)

See, other than the 1st 1/2 of #7 & R1 ive not been impressed by the current batch of SW movies.  This doesnt look to change my opinion, so they won't be making any $ off of me theatre wise for this one.

Once it hits Disney+?  Then I guess you could argue that I'm technically paying for it.
In the same way I'm paying for the stuff I don't watch on Netflix/Prime.  So subscription fee spread over how much content?  At a fraction of a penny I guess I'll watch it at some point (inbetween Marvel series )


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## Morrus (Aug 26, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> True, which unless I misunderstood the term "fake out" I was mainly saying that yes it's in the final movie.




'Fake out' doesn't mean it's not in the movie. It means what we saw is out of context and deliberately designed to give an impression different to the events of the movie. 2-seconds of footage could be in any context.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 26, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## MarkB (Aug 26, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> True, which unless I misunderstood the term "fake out" I was mainly saying that yes it's in the final movie.



I understood it to mean that it was a deliberate misdirection - that the scene will have a much different meaning when taken in context.


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2019)

Morrus said:


> 'Fake out' doesn't mean it's not in the movie. It means what we saw is out of context and deliberately designed to give an impression different to the events of the movie. 2-seconds of footage could be in any context.





MarkB said:


> I understood it to mean that it was a deliberate misdirection - that the scene will have a much different meaning when taken in context.




Then I simply took it as "missing trailer scene" _shrug_


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

ccs said:


> All this trailer did was make me want to watch ANH/ESB/RotJ again.




Yeah, I got a bit of that too. What I found striking is how even in this trailer, there is a palpable sense of just how more "mythically resonant" the original trilogy is than everything made after, which all feel like vain attempts to re-capture past glory - to varying degrees of success (or failure).


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 27, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Yeah, I got a bit of that too. What I found striking is how even in this trailer, there is a palpable sense of just how more "mythically resonant" the original trilogy is than everything made after, which all feel like vain attempts to re-capture past glory - to varying degrees of success (or failure).



Didn’t get that at all from the trailer, much less at a “palpable” degree.


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## Legatus Legionis (Aug 27, 2019)

.


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Naw. I am sure that it is real, and this film will end with Rey looking out at the audience and saying, "See? Women are evil. And have cooties and can't be heroes. Star Wars is safe to watch again."




First of all, I highly doubt that Disney will pander to the worst of the online trolls. 

Secondly, Leia was (and is) a hero, she just didn't out-dude all the dude heroes. She was a hero in a less violence-centered way, which makes sense considering the physical differences between men and women. In that sense, I like her more than Rey, who is a bit too pandering to the crowd who want to believe that women can do everything men can do, but better.

I like Rey, but where Leia is a complex character with depth and nuance, Rey is, well, a bit of a Mary Sue. I know that upsets people, but I don't think it is inherently sexist to say so. I don't think she's a total Mary Sue, but she is definitely on the spectrum. I don't have a problem with it for a variety of reasons, not least of which being that it is good to see strong female leads that don't lead with their sexuality, and as a father of two girls I'm always glad for them to see women front and center in films. But whereas Luke was filled with self-doubt and temptations of the dark side, so far Rey seems lacking in any kind of character weakness. Where Luke had to develop his skills over time, with many trials and errors, Rey was somewhat of a skilled fighter pilot and fully-formed Jedi Master from the start.

All of which brings me back to the clip - and makes that last bit intriguing. I'm worried it is a gimmick, doing it just to do it - which could be the final nail in the creative death of the franchise. But maybe it is also their attempt to bring greater depth to Rey, or maybe another version of power corrupts - even strong females (e.g. Daenarys or Jean Grey).


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## Morrus (Aug 27, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Rey is, well, a bit of a Mary Sue.




Oh, god. Is it going to be this thread _yet again?_ We all know every dismal, dreary, tedious beat of that conversation. Sometimes I wish the internet would take a break from parodying itself.


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## Gradine (Aug 27, 2019)

This is why we can't have things.


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Oh, god. Is it going to be this thread _yet again?_ We all know every dismal, dreary beat of that conversation. Sometimes I wish the internet would take a break from parodying itself.




Unfortunately (well, fortunately) I haven't ready every thread or conversation on the internet. But thanks for the jab.

Anyhow, that wasn't really my main point - but you made it central, therefore continuing on that conversation you profess to detest.


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## Morrus (Aug 27, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Unfortunately (well, fortunately) I haven't ready every thread or conversation on the internet. But thanks for the jab.




It takes over 100% of all cinversations on the internet about Star Wars, including 100% of all conversations we try to have here about it.


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

Morrus said:


> It takes over 100% of all cinversations on the internet about Star Wars, including 100% of all conversations we try to have here about it.




Well, considering that this is a thread about the trailer to the new movie and it shows a dark side version of Rey, it does have some relevance. And considering she's the main character in episodes 7-9, who she is and how she's portrayed are kind of central to any conversation of Star Wars.

But ignore the term "Mary Sue" and instead focus on nuance, depth, character weakness; or compare her to Leia. This dark side "revelation" (or hint) could be any number of things: a gimmick, a major plot twist, an attempt to bring greater nuance to Rey, and more. Who knows, maybe she's going undercover in order to defeat some previously unknown Dark Side superpower. Or maybe she figures its the only way to save Kylo Ren, to meet him in his darkness, or maybe...


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## trappedslider (Aug 27, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> This dark side "revelation" (or hint) could be any number of things: a gimmick, a major plot twist, an attempt to bring greater nuance to Rey, and more. Who knows, maybe she's going undercover in order to defeat some previously unknown Dark Side superpower. Or maybe she figures its the only way to save Kylo Ren, to meet him in his darkness, or maybe...




didn't you see 


Legatus_Legionis said:


> Oh look, a dream sequence.



 it's a dream sequence.. apparently legatus knows more than we do but isn't sharing links or anything to back it up.


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## billd91 (Aug 27, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> But whereas Luke was filled with self-doubt and temptations of the dark side, so far Rey seems lacking in any kind of character weakness. Where Luke had to develop his skills over time, with many trials and errors, Rey was somewhat of a skilled fighter pilot and fully-formed Jedi Master from the start.




Typical load of garbage holding Rey to a standard nobody holds any other (read "Male") action hero.


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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

billd91 said:


> Typical load of garbage holding Rey to a standard nobody holds any other (read "Male") action hero.




Nice strawman there, but nope. These aren't the droids you're looking for.

I said nothing about what standards I hold for male action heroes - I only compared her to Luke, who was a more flawed hero than Rey is.


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## Salthorae (Aug 27, 2019)

Luke might have started out a bit whiny, but he was very competent when we meet him in ANH. 

He was a skilled mechanic and pilot at the least. He used to bullseye wimp rats in his t16 back home remember? And he manages to more than hold his own against trained Tie pilots of the Imperial Navy + Darth Vader himself in that trench run. 

Just after that on Hoth he force pulls the lightsaber to himself with no training just a ghostly voice. 

I think you’ve got some rose colored glasses on how skilled Luke was or wasn’t when we first meet him in ANH and how quickly his own Force powers developed without real training as well.


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## Hussar (Aug 27, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> /snip
> 
> where Leia is a complex character with depth and nuance,
> /snip




BWAHAHAHA.  I'm sorry, but, you actually made me laugh out loud here.  "Depth and nuance"?  Where?  Good grief, this is Star Wars.  The characters are so shallow that puddles look at them and giggle.  Good grief.


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## Tonguez (Aug 27, 2019)




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## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

Hussar said:


> BWAHAHAHA.  I'm sorry, but, you actually made me laugh out loud here.  "Depth and nuance"?  Where?  Good grief, this is Star Wars.  The characters are so shallow that puddles look at them and giggle.  Good grief.




Well, relatively speaking within the context of Star Wars. Leia was no, say, Meryl Streep in Bridges of Madison County. But its Star Wars!

(I feel like a Leia Apologist)


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## Zardnaar (Aug 27, 2019)

Salthorae said:


> Luke might have started out a bit whiny, but he was very competent when we meet him in ANH.
> 
> He was a skilled mechanic and pilot at the least. He used to bullseye wimp rats in his t16 back home remember? And he manages to more than hold his own against trained Tie pilots of the Imperial Navy + Darth Vader himself in that trench run.
> 
> ...




 Luke sucked at personal combat in ANH, and wasn't much better in ESB. He got smacked down Tuskan Raiders, a Wampa and Vader. Gave into his anger on Dagobah.

Good pilot, ok with blasters. Wasn't really a Jedi until RoTJ being competent with his lightsaber. 

 Rey going darkside even briefly would make her a bit more interesting. Reasonably sure it's a force vision or possession or something like that.

 The plotline is basically a rehash of Dark Empire from 1991. They had the basic ingredients but messed up here and there. Killing Han in front of Leia would have made Kylo a more compelling villain IMHO.

 Make Rey a Jedi Knight from the get go, ties her to Kylo in some way. It's hard to care about any of the new characters as they butchered them in VIII. 

 Just small tweaks like that, logic, character development, establishing a villain etc.


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## Janx (Aug 27, 2019)

I like Rey.  But I'm also a writer so it's handy to think about character growth and Mary Sueishness of characters.

Here's a test:




__





						The Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test
					





					springhole.net
				




I don't know Star Wars well enough to answer for Leia, Luke, Han or Rey (But Anakin scores points for being a slave).  Mary Sueing isn't just about being competent as all these characters are good at something on day one.

The usual goal for main characters (as a writer) is that they have a change and growth arc. They make mistakes.  Does Leia?  I'm not so sure.  She's largely composed and competent in ANH.  Falls in love with Han in ESB. Kicks butt in ROJ.  I sense that she might not be a main character. Which means she kinda got hosed on story (assuming every character's meta-goal is camera time emoting and evolving their character).

(here's a link on character arc from an expert writer advice person so we're all on the same page)
The Character Arc in Six Specific Stages

Luke starts as whiny, always in a hurry to get to out there, never focused on where - he - is.  At the end, he's calm, he's collected, and he's ready to confront and turn Vader.  A very definitive character growth arc where Luke is not the same person. Almost like Lucas had read a book on the subject...

Does Rey have any flaws? Poe does. Finn does. Their faults are very obvious conflict and growth points (or in Poe's case his flaw is a strength)

She does have those flashbacks and questions about where she came from, being abandoned.

Aside from improved Force skill, does Rey change in any way? She's strong, confident. Does she ever do the wrong thing? Whether she's a full Mary Sue or not, there's signs that she's not getting the full Arc treatment.

Do we ever tackle that abandonment issue? Does it ever come up or hold Rey back?

this might even be a side effect of being a major female character and the writers trying to make her a role model or avoid negative connotations about her flaws if she had them.  I still like her, but it'd be an unfortunate loss for her.  But I wouldn't panic over it.  I still like her character.

We all like Ellen Ripley, but does she really have a change arc?  The whole story is "nobody listened to the woman, so they all died except for her and the cat."  I doubt Mace Windu had much of a change arc, but he was a bad mutha-jedi. Oh wait, the story wasn't about Mace.  Funny that.  Is it possible that the story's not about Rey? That she's really a catalyst for Finn, Poe, Kylo and Luke?

From the standard of the old serials (of which Star Wars is an homage), character change/growth didn't really exist as most of the focus was on external issues (saving the princess, earth, dog, etc). So as George says, it's all popcorn.


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## Morrus (Aug 27, 2019)

Yup, we're still talkng about Rey and Mary Sueness. The mere invocation of those words doomed the thread, as they always do. It was a fun thread while it lasted!


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Luke sucked at personal combat in ANH, and wasn't much better in ESB. He got smacked down Tuskan Raiders, a Wampa and Vader.




To say, "losing a fight to Vader indicates you suck at personal combat," is kind of like saying, "you lost to Usain Bolt in a race, so you are a turtle."


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## Janx (Aug 27, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Yup, we're still talkng about Rey and Mary Sueness. The mere invocation of those words doomed the thread, as they always do. It was a fun thread while it lasted!



that's why I supplied a test.  if somebody really thinks she is, they can do the math on all the chars and prove it.

I don't feel like she got a full character arc, but maybe it's too subtle for me. Luke was pretty blatant and obvious.  Plus, her set of films aren't done yet.

I'm not overly worried about it.  But I also don't really give a rats arse about star wars.  I'll see it.  It'll have cool stuff.  And I'll go home.  Somebody on EN World will say something smart about it.  Somebody else will complain about it. If there's a takeaway I can use in my own work, great.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 27, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Janx (Aug 27, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> So you applied some made-up math to a made-up (and sexist) term?
> 
> LOGIC!
> 
> (It's just movies. Space pew pew with laser and laser swords.)



I did no math, I challenged those who think Rey is to do the test on all the characters. Your accusation is baseless. 

Crying out "It's just movies!" is dismissive and ignorant.  It takes a lot of work to design compelling stories and plot. I'm sorry you're not interested in that. We're here to discuss movies. If your response to discussion is "It's just movies!" you're not discussing, in fact, you're trying to thwart that by trivializing the entire concept of being unworthy of deeper consideration.

Heck, if you'd read my post, maybe you could answer the questions I posed. I countered several of the anti-Reyist comparisons.  I don't have the movies memorized, but I find it harder to recall Rey's flaws or character arc compared to the others.  You'd notice I spent a lot more time talking about arc than Rey being a Mary Sue or not. I'd like to think somebody here has figured Rey out and could point her arc out. Thereby revealing she got as much arc as the others. Which in turn diminishes the Mary Sue argument.

I've enjoyed Rey's movies as is, but I do want her to get a fair share of character development. Can you help spot those elements?

Maybe I'm late to the party, but I saw comments implying Rey was faulty and saw an approach to analyze whether that was true or not based on storytelling craft which I'm familiar with.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 27, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## cmad1977 (Aug 27, 2019)

I always love it when someone calls Rey a Mary Sue. It shows me that individual isn’t a thinking person and their views on things can’t be trusted.


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## Gradine (Aug 27, 2019)

Janx said:


> Does Rey have any flaws? Poe does. Finn does. Their faults are very obvious conflict and growth points (or in Poe's case his flaw is a strength)
> 
> She does have those flashbacks and questions about where she came from, being abandoned.
> 
> ...




It's stuff like this that make me question whether (a) we're even watching the same movies (especially TLJ), or (b) people really do hold female characters to different standards. Rey fails at basically everything she tries to do in TLJ until the very end, almost exclusively because of her abandonment issues and the subsequent need to feel like she has some important role to play in everything. She maybe gets Luke to budge a little but she _fails _to convince him to actually lift a finger to help (force ghost Yoda gives him the final push he needs there). She _fails _the ESB-esque "dark cave" trial just like Luke before her (fun fact: there's a reason, by the way, that the big scary thing in the dark cave is a *mirror*. Subtelty this is not). She tries to pull a ROTJ Luke and turn Kylo Ren, but _fails _miserably in that too, only succeeding in the "well at least he killed the mysterious cackling overlord" part of that particular plan (though honestly Snoke doesn't strike me as a cackler. Palpatine, now, there was a cackling enthusiast).

Hell, even in TFA the whole reason she gets captured in the first place is because Luke's lightsaber strikes her right in the feels and she runs away from everyone right before The First Order attack.

Yes, sure, she starts at a higher level, so to speak, than whiny Tatooine Luke did. But she's experienced plenty of failure. She's had an arc.


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## Janx (Aug 27, 2019)

Gradine said:


> It's stuff like this that make me question whether (a) we're even watching the same movies (especially TLJ), or (b) people really do hold female characters to different standards. Rey fails at basically everything she tries to do in TLJ until the very end, almost exclusively because of her abandonment issues and the subsequent need to feel like she has some important role to play in everything. She maybe gets Luke to budge a little but she _fails _to convince him to actually lift a finger to help (force ghost Yoda gives him the final push he needs there). She _fails _the ESB-esque "dark cave" trial just like Luke before her (fun fact: there's a reason, by the way, that the big scary thing in the dark cave is a *mirror*. Subtelty this is not). She tries to pull a ROTJ Luke and turn Kylo Ren, but _fails _miserably in that too, only succeeding in the "well at least he killed the mysterious cackling overlord" part of that particular plan (though honestly Snoke doesn't strike me as a cackler. Palpatine, now, there was a cackling enthusiast).
> 
> Hell, even in TFA the whole reason she gets captured in the first place is because Luke's lightsaber strikes her right in the feels and she runs away from everyone right before The First Order attack.
> 
> Yes, sure, she starts at a higher level, so to speak, than whiny Tatooine Luke did. But she's experienced plenty of failure. She's had an arc.




This is exactly what I needed.  Thanks!  Really.


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2019)

cmad1977 said:


> I always love it when someone calls Rey a Mary Sue. It shows me that individual isn’t a thinking person and their views on things can’t be trusted.





Noting that the whole Rey == Mary Sue thing is weak sauce is fine.

Insulting people over it is not fine.  Folks need to stop doing that.  I hope that's clear.


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2019)

Janx said:


> Do we ever tackle that abandonment issue? Does it ever come up or hold Rey back?




Goodness, she's tackling it _through the entire first movie_.  Every time she asserts that she has to go back to Jakku, she's confronting that issue, for cryin' out loud!  Solo offers her a job.  She says no - right there, holding her back from what she really wants.

It takes force visions from a lightsaber, Maz Kanata, and being kidnapped and nearly having her mind violated by Darth Whineypants* to get her to realize that for herself and others, she needs to move forwards, not stand in place - and she tries to take those steps forward in seeking out Luke.

And later, when Darth Whineypants tells her her parents were nobody... again, that issue is influencing her.  She overcomes it in that moment, to remain her own person, rather than try to replace parents with another dominating relationship.

I sometimes wonder how folks ask questions like that, when they are major plot points of the movies.


*By the way, I actually like Kylo Ren as a character - he's an exploration of an all-too-human form of evil.  And Adam Driver does a good job putting him on the screen.  I just think as a person he deserves derision


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## billd91 (Aug 27, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Goodness, she's tackling it _through the entire first movie_.  Every time she asserts that she has to go back to Jakku, she's confronting that issue, for cryin' out loud!  Solo offers her a job.  She says no - right there, holding her back from what she really wants.
> 
> It takes force visions from a lightsaber, Maz Kanata, and being kidnapped and nearly having her mind violated by Darth Whineypants* to get her to realize that for herself and others, she needs to move forwards, not stand in place - and she tries to take those steps forward in seeking out Luke.
> 
> ...




If I were uncharitable, I'd say that that people skipping over them is because those issues aren't "manly" obstacles to overcome - they're touchy-feelly, womanly issues and thus not as significant or recognizable by the men (invariably men) criticizing Rey as a character.


...I guess I'm uncharitable...


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## Zardnaar (Aug 27, 2019)

Umbran said:


> To say, "losing a fight to Vader indicates you suck at personal combat," is kind of like saying, "you lost to Usain Bolt in a race, so you are a turtle."




 It's also a problem with Kylo. Rewatched TFA and Kylo and Rey both had a great intro duction. However Kylo loses at the end if the movie and gets called Darth Whiney or Emo. 

 Sure he got wounded but remember Vader soaking a blaster bolt?

 Throw in Kylo going back and forth, and he is not even established as a great character. 

To make him different to Vader he should have used the for e to dodge Chewies bolt, defeated Rey (she survives) but maybe she wounds him. They follow up Snokes line about training him. Vader's a tank, make Kylo more like a Leopard or Tiger. Something like the T-800 vs T-1000. 

 Have Kylo kill Han in front of Leia or Leia plus Rey. At some point also have the 3 OT characters reunite before you kill one off.

 Finn actually regresses as a character as well. 

 If the writers don't care about the characters why should we? The main problem apparently was very little collaboration in the writing of the two movies hence Finn essentially having the same character development arc twice.


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## Janx (Aug 27, 2019)

billd91 said:


> If I were uncharitable, I'd say that that people skipping over them is because those issues aren't "manly" obstacles to overcome - they're touchy-feelly, womanly issues and thus not as significant or recognizable by the men (invariably men) criticizing Rey as a character.
> 
> 
> ...I guess I'm uncharitable...



that and/or I only saw the movie twice and just saw Rey do what she had to do and forgot about pretty much everything. Once mentioned, it's "oh yeah"  Which is why, for me, Gardine's post was very helpful.


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## billd91 (Aug 27, 2019)

Janx said:


> that and/or I only saw the movie twice and just saw Rey do what she had to do and forgot about pretty much everything. Once mentioned, it's "oh yeah"  Which is why, for me, Gardine's post was very helpful.




Honestly forgetting is one thing - constantly discounting is another. I can be charitable about the former to a certain degree (though the question of *why* it's forgettable, I think, has certain applicability to problems in patriarchal society in general).


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## Umbran (Aug 27, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It's also a problem with Kylo. Rewatched TFA and Kylo and Rey both had a great intro duction. However Kylo loses at the end if the movie and gets called Darth Whiney or Emo.
> 
> Sure he got wounded but remember Vader soaking a blaster bolt?




You are comparing a bud to a flower.  Kylo Ren is still young.  At the time of A New Hope, Vader had full Jedi training, and a couple of decades hunting down Jedi and doing other dirty work.  Vader, when we first see him, is far more experienced than Kylo, when we first see him.

And even then, Kylo takes Chewie's caster bolt (earlier demonstrated to be much more powerful than a typical blaster), and then actually fights both Finn and Rey.  Rey doesn't actually beat him - the ground opens up and separates them before she can finish him off, so there's some question as to whether he had a reserve he could have pulled out if she had gotten to try.

I call him whiney because he literally has temper tantrums.  And, as I said, his psychology is an entirely recognizable and legitimate source of evil.  I'm glad they made him different.



> Throw in Kylo going back and forth, and he is not even established as a great character.




I think that depends on what you mean by "great character".  To me, he's an _awesome_ character.


----------



## BookBarbarian (Aug 27, 2019)

Umbran said:


> You are comparing a bud to a flower.  Kylo Ren is still young.  At the time of A New Hope, Vader had full Jedi training, and a couple of decades hunting down Jedi and doing other dirty work.  Vader, when we first see him, is far more experienced than Kylo, when we first see him.
> 
> And even then, Kylo takes Chewie's caster bolt (earlier demonstrated to be much more powerful than a typical blaster), and then actually fights both Finn and Rey.  Rey doesn't actually beat him - the ground opens up and separates them before she can finish him off, so there's some question as to whether he had a reserve he could have pulled out if she had gotten to try.
> 
> ...




He's a very believable type of evil.

I also like him as a character, and love to make fun of Emo Kylo Ren.


----------



## Sadras (Aug 27, 2019)

My friend suspects the last scene is a clone perhaps stealing from Timothy Zahn's plot where Luke fights a clone of himself.


----------



## Gradine (Aug 27, 2019)

Ah yes, _Luuke_, that pinnacle of EU writing


----------



## Istbor (Aug 27, 2019)

Yeah, I gotta say, comparing Vader to Kylo is pretty out there.

Expertise with the force aside, we are talking two completely different people. 

One with a huge focus of will, while the other is riddled with conflict and uncertainty. Mostly in himself. 

And aside from all that, I mean... Vader... "He's more machine now than man".

Kylo is all fleshy bits. That blaster bolt hit meat.


----------



## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

cmad1977 said:


> I always love it when someone calls Rey a Mary Sue. It shows me that individual isn’t a thinking person and their views on things can’t be trusted.




This might be one of the silliest things I've ever seen written on an internet forum - not to mention ironic in that by showing your penchant for jumping to such a conclusion over one thing, you diminish your own worthiness of being considered a thinking person. I'm not saying you are or aren't a thinking person - I would never make such a conclusion on one little statement - but that your assertion is not indicative of depth of thinking. Thus the irony: your post is a performance of what you're complaining about.

Perhaps consider that there might be valid reasons to think of Rey as a Mary Sue, or at least "on the spectrum" (as I put it), even if you disagree?

And more importantly, even if it is a faulty view, you do realize that smart people aren't smart about everything? There are plenty of "thinking people" who are very intelligent in some ways, not so much in others?


----------



## Mercurius (Aug 27, 2019)

@Janx , I think your mention of Ripley illustrates why not all characters need to follow the same formula for character arc and such, and that adhering to such rules of writing is rather limited. It really depends upon the story. _Alien _is much more of a set piece, a short story. Ripley is a cipher for the audience's experience of terror. Rey or Luke are portrayed over years, with a real arc of development.

That said, Ripley doesn't change and develop over the four movies she's in, and even in _Alien _she goes from being second or third in command and part of a team, to having to deal with the creature on her own. But my point is, the necessity of a character arc isn't as great in her story as it is in the Star Wars films, and for Luke and Rey.


----------



## Janx (Aug 27, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> @Janx , I think your mention of Ripley illustrates why not all characters need to follow the same formula for character arc and such, and that adhering to such rules of writing is rather limited. It really depends upon the story. _Alien _is much more of a set piece, a short story. Ripley is a cipher for the audience's experience of terror. Rey or Luke are portrayed over years, with a real arc of development.
> 
> That said, Ripley doesn't change and develop over the four movies she's in, and even in _Alien _she goes from being second or third in command and part of a team, to having to deal with the creature on her own. But my point is, the necessity of a character arc isn't as great in her story as it is in the Star Wars films, and for Luke and Rey.




Agreed.  I referenced Ripley for that contrast. Figured it might be a clue if Rey's plotting didn't align with the expectation.  But also, my memory on the new and prequels sucks.

Anywho, it's clear that I'm not qualified to talk about Star Wars and this is not an Alien thread


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 27, 2019)

Gradine said:


> Ah yes, _Luuke_, that pinnacle of EU writing




 The name of the clone was stupid, but the overall arch was decent and they tied it to the OT well. 

 For example Luke's clone was grown from the hand he lost at Cloud City. The insane Jedi Master was also a clone and it seems cloning force users is a bad idea. 

 Luke was also still a little inexperienced as he had a very limited experience with Jedi Masters.

 That Trilogy also built on the end of RoTJ better than the Disney stuff. And created one of the most compelling Star Wars villains that is often mentioned in the same breath as Vader. 

 And Thrawn has returned to the new canon as well essentially the same character. He is a popular character. 

 They were also more original than TFA, a great example of making non force users relevent and not having to revert to 90s plot of new super weapon, new Darksiders of the week and a new even better super star destroyer.

 TFA gets criticized because it's almost a remake of ANH, but a lot if the characters are heavily reminiscent of old Legends ones and IX is seems to be borrowing a lot of plot points from Dark Empire.

 You can make a very good arguement for Disney Star Wars being creatively bankrupt.


----------



## Kaodi (Aug 28, 2019)

I had this idea that it could be interesting if Rey and Kylo engage in another duel, with Rey winning again. But they he attacks Rey through their Force connection, showing her a vision of what he thinks her potential is, thinking that his "Force reflection" can do some kind of damage. But she recognizes the trick and flips it back on him, creating an avatar of what Ben Solo could have been, and then "Dark Rey" and "Ben Solo" fight, and Solo wins, with Kylo Ren finally being defeated and destroyed, leaving Ben Solo behind.


----------



## Mercurius (Aug 28, 2019)

The reason I don't think Darth Rey is a vision or dream is that light saber. It seems like they woudn't create such a (n admittedly cool) thing just for a dream sequence. 

What I think is more likely the case is one of two scenarios, maybe both:

1) Rey goes to the Dark side. She'll almost certainly be redeemed, but at some point she goes Dark.

That's the obviously one. My preferred is:

2) Rey becomes a "holistic" force user, not limited to either Light or Dark. They've implied this a bit, and it fits the narrative of the "end of the Jedi." I mean, this would certainly fit the quasi-Taoist leanings of Force philosophy, which sees Light and Dark as two sides of one whole.

The problem with that view, however, is that her light saber is red and she looks like a Darkside force user. But maybe part of this approach is that you can take on attributes of Light and Dark, as necessary.


----------



## MarkB (Aug 28, 2019)

Or they fully embrace the old Dark Empire comic and have Rey pretending to go evil in order to ingratiate herself with the reborn Emperor.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

MarkB said:


> Or they fully embrace the old Dark Empire comic and have Rey pretending to go evil in order to ingratiate herself with the reborn Emperor.




 Luke did go dark side there, Leia dragged him back to the light. 

 There's various ways for them to do it.

 1. Force vision.
2. Possession
3. Clone
4. She pretends
5. She actually goes dark (unlikely)

 In the new canon Palpatine is basically Vader's father via the force. 

 Rey could be Anakin 2.0,in Dark Empire Palpatine tried to possess Leia's unborn baby and Sith spirits exist in the new canon and are very similar.


----------



## Mage of Spellford (Aug 28, 2019)

Interesting...wasn't there some kind of theory that Anakin was the product of some kind of dark force experiment by Darth Sidious? Maybe in this movie they will find within the ruins of the deathstar that Rey was Anakin Mark II. Wouldn't it be cool if instead of the expected battle between Rey and Kylo we actually ended up with a battle of Rey vs Dark Rey. 

That would explain a lot, in my head-cannon Rey was 'rescued' from the Deathstar ruins and left on Jakku to hide her existence--maybe by Luke or Lei?--just like Luke was left on Tatooine. 

In episode IX the truth about Rey will be discovered or some clues will lead her to the ruins where she will learn the truth and have to confront her origin and decide her path forward. 'Skywalker' could be a pseudonym for this family of supernaturally created force users.

Now that would be cool!
Not sure why but this trailer has me interested aga

Mark


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Mage of Spellford said:


> Interesting...wasn't there some kind of theory that Anakin was the product of some kind of dark force experiment by Darth Sidious? Maybe in this movie they will find within the ruins of the deathstar that Rey was Anakin Mark II. Wouldn't it be cool if instead of the expected battle between Rey and Kylo we actually ended up with a battle of Rey vs Dark Rey.
> 
> That would explain a lot, in my head-cannon Rey was 'rescued' from the Deathstar ruins and left on Jakku to hide her existence--maybe by Luke or Lei?--just like Luke was left on Tatooine.
> 
> ...



 In the new cannon it has shown Palpatine more or less creating Anakin via the force, his mother is essentially a vessel.

AFAIK this is the art from the comic.









						Star Wars comic finally reveals Anakin’s father
					

The mystery of Anakin's father has finally been revealed. Star Wars comic, Darth Vader No. 25 has decided to show us how Anakin came to be. Ok, so this is ...




					dorksideoftheforce.com
				




 In one of the new Vader comics it's been revealed the new Sith ghosts can possess objects/people which is more or less the same as the old Sith ghosts from Legends material.

How it relates to the movies no idea but George lifted a few things from the old EU material and stuck it in the prequals.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Aug 28, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> The reason I don't think Darth Rey is a vision or dream is that light saber. It seems like they woudn't create such a (n admittedly cool) thing just for a dream sequence.
> 
> What I think is more likely the case is one of two scenarios, maybe both:
> 
> ...




The other problem is that the force isn’t Taoist philosophy. The Dark Side isn’t death and entropy, it is basically the space equivalent of necromancy or demon summoning in dnd. It’s an inherently evil corruption, a cancer, of the Force. 

If they change that...well, I’ll always have the OT and my home games. But SW going forward would just be yet another grim shades of grey world. Meh. They’re a dime a dozen.


----------



## Mercurius (Aug 28, 2019)

^I know it isn't Taoist philosophy, but it has shades of it - thus "quasi-Taoist leanings."

But it also isn't the strongly dualistic Abrahamic Good vs. Evil that you imply.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 28, 2019)

Well they spoiled the "surprise" on their website and took it down in a hurry. 

 But if it's true it basically confirmed a leak a while ago so the overall plot is out there. If true it's not season 8 GoT disaster territory and it's slightly better than the obvious conclusion.  The leak is one of many but it came out before this trailer screened in private. 

 Like the GoT one it's not big on finer details more answers to the two trailers and how it ends. If accurate. 

 Not gonna post it here and it could be complete bollocks. But with the website thing and what was known before the second trailer landed it's a bit more substantial than most. Not 100% convinced.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 28, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Well they spoiled the "surprise" on their website and took it down in a hurry.
> 
> But if it's true it basically confirmed a leak a while ago so the overall plot is out there. If true it's not season 8 GoT disaster territory and it's slightly better than the obvious conclusion.  The leak is one of many but it came out before this trailer screened in private.
> 
> ...



if you're not going to put the spoiler even in spoiler blocks then why even post?


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> if you're not going to put the spoiler even in spoiler blocks then why even post?




 New forums not sure where spoiler tags are and other people might give up the ghost.


----------



## Legatus Legionis (Aug 29, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> The Star Wars / Lucasfilm website had "accidentally" spoiled "Dark Rey Vision".  Youtube is talking about it.
> 
> Here is one of them:
> 
> ...




 I mentioned that yesterday but wasn't going to post the links. 

 But the d23 trailer was spoiled a few weeks ago before it screened in private. It was rumours back then but thrown in with this it seems to give validation to one of the leaks.


----------



## cmad1977 (Aug 29, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It's also a problem with Kylo. Rewatched TFA and Kylo and Rey both had a great intro duction. However Kylo loses at the end if the movie and gets called Darth Whiney or Emo.
> 
> Sure he got wounded but remember Vader soaking a blaster bolt?
> 
> ...




Vader was more machine than man. I mean... that’s explicitly told to the audience in the very FIRST movie. Of course he took a blaster shot.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

cmad1977 said:


> Vader was more machine than man. I mean... that’s explicitly told to the audience in the very FIRST movie. Of course he took a blaster shot.




He used the force to negate it.

 Kylo doesn't have the same physical presence but he looked good at the start of the movie. 

 If they gave the OT heroes as reunion, had he killed Han in front of Leia, avoided Chewies bolt using the force and smacked Rey down (she survives) he would have looked like an evil badass and established him as a major threat.

 Write him different than Vader, sleek, agile, prescience, intelligent. 

 In part 2 they met again after Rey is trained by Luke, it's inconclusive Reys powerful, Kylos not as good as Vader gets more training from Snoke. 

 In part 3 I bet people would be long up to see Kylo get his butt kicked by Rey. 

 Makes a bit more sense established Rey and Kylo as characters you care about?


----------



## billd91 (Aug 29, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> If they gave the OT heroes as reunion, had he killed Han in front of Leia, avoided Chewies bolt using the force and smacked Rey down (she survives) he would have looked like an evil badass and established him as a major threat.




Except for the fact that Chewie actually shooting Kylo is a stronger emotional element overall. Imagine how often Chewie must have carried Ben Solo on his back or shoulders, back when times were happier. And then he has to shoot to try to kill him.
No, blocking it would not only have diffused the emotion, it would have been a trite retread of what we have already seen.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

billd91 said:


> Except for the fact that Chewie actually shooting Kylo is a stronger emotional element overall. Imagine how often Chewie must have carried Ben Solo on his back or shoulders, back when times were happier. And then he has to shoot to try to kill him.
> No, blocking it would not only have diffused the emotion, it would have been a trite retread of what we have already seen.




Maybe but we don't know that for sure. We do know about Han and Leia's relationship and they had a kid as well.

 All they had to do was use the OT characters to get the new ones over and pass the torch. 

They tried that in the wrong way by undermining the old ones while kind of failing to pass the torch. I suppose they ham fisted it by literally passing the lightsaber and blaster. Subtle as brick in face, just make Han a dead beat dad and revert his character development in the OT. 

 If I was writing it I would have had a female Jedi lead, killed off Han but I would have given the OT characters a reunion, a somewhat happy ending, and used Hand death to get Kylo over. 

 Same thing with Luke, if you kill him off do it in the 3rd movie. 

 Having a plan whatever the story was going to be would also help.


----------



## Hussar (Aug 29, 2019)

Wow.  Did I just make a mistake.  I clicked that first link and then read the comments.  Yikes.  I personally love this one:  "A Mary Sue turning evil and it is blamed on fans?  SJWars can really get fun sometimes. "

That pretty much sums up my view of a certain branch of the fandom that I would rather just took a long walk off a short pier because, AFAIC, they're not welcome in the fandom.


----------



## Imaculata (Aug 29, 2019)

I don't know quite what to say about this trailer... but there are some visual things that I like. The fight between Rey and Kylo Ren with that ocean all around them. Looks like they might be fighting on top of the remains of the Death Star. I'm also loving Rey's dark look, and it makes sense to have her fight with a staff-type lightsaber.
I see a short shot of another super weapon being fired, which just raises all sorts of questions. Are we getting yet another Death Star/Starkiller? Or perhaps a ship with a super weapon? Is the dark Rey we see at the end the Rey we're familiar with, or perhaps a twin sister, or some kind of illusion? No doubt the trailer is misdirecting us.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> I don't know quite what to say about this trailer... but there are some visual things that I like. The fight between Rey and Kylo Ren with that ocean all around them. Looks like they might be fighting on top of the remains of the Death Star. I'm also loving Rey's dark look, and it makes sense to have her fight with a staff-type lightsaber.
> I see a short shot of another super weapon being fired, which just raises all sorts of questions. Are we getting yet another Death Star/Starkiller? Or perhaps a ship with a super weapon? Is the dark Rey we see at the end the Rey we're familiar with, or perhaps a twin sister, or some kind of illusion? No doubt the trailer is misdirecting us.




 The superlasers appear to be in the bottom of the Star Destroyers. 

 They're classic Star destroyers at least in shape with red trim. 

 I think they're ISDs I vs ISDIIs from ESB. 

You get a very brief look at the bottom of the ISDs and they have a big cannon where the launch bay is iirc. 

 It's right before the red superlasers hits the ground. The fleets also at least 3 times the size of the Endor Fleet.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 29, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> He used the force to negate it.




If we are talking about the meeting on Bespin, then I have to agree, yes.  Vader uses a force power, and takes the blaster bolt right in the palm of his hand, which I am sure is not what Han was aiming at.  



> Makes a bit more sense established Rey and Kylo as characters you care about?




We have already had the major, imposing, nigh-unbeatable dark force user as an antagonist.  Unfortunately, in Eps 1-3 they botched Anakin's journey into darkness.  So, now these movies have to do the job - demonstrating that the dark side has its roots in human foibles.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Umbran said:


> If we are talking about the meeting on Bespin, then I have to agree, yes.  Vader uses a force power, and takes the blaster bolt right in the palm of his hand, which I am sure is not what Han was aiming at.
> 
> 
> 
> We have already had the major, imposing, nigh-unbeatable dark force user as an antagonist.  Unfortunately, in Eps 1-3 they botched Anakin's journey into darkness.  So, now these movies have to do the job - demonstrating that the dark side has its roots in human foibles.




 I wouldn't have Kylo as unbeatable, Rey would fight him to a draw in part 2 maybe drawing on the dark side. 

 Part 3 She smacks him down or you have a double turn and he smacks her down. 

 Make it a bit different from the others.


----------



## Istbor (Aug 29, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> The Star Wars / Lucasfilm website had "accidentally" spoiled "Dark Rey Vision".  Youtube is talking about it.
> 
> Here is one of them:
> 
> ...



Ugh. That guy in the second video. The worst. I am saddened that I now know of his existence.


----------



## Istbor (Aug 29, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Maybe but we don't know that for sure. We do know about Han and Leia's relationship and they had a kid as well.
> 
> All they had to do was use the OT characters to get the new ones over and pass the torch.
> 
> ...



Whoa! Who said anything about Han being a deadbeat dad!? As you point out, we don't know anything about how Kylo was raised. We are told Snoke had influence on him, and was sent to Luke's academy to try and end that influence. We don't know whether he was in some sort of broken home, or loving family however. Certainly Han seemed to feel some amount of guilt or as if he had failed as a father.

 I am not sure how it would affect me if my only son became and evil bastard, and I blame myself or whoever? We don't know. Han and Leia clearly are dealing with this probably complex scenario in their own ways. 

To me, Han fell back into his old ways because they were familiar, nostalgic. Less likely to remind himself of failing as a father or the loss of his his son. It isn't uncommon for couples who have lost children to separate, simply because it is too painful to have a constant reminder of that pain right there. 

And why was Kylo unable to force block/deflect/freeze Chewie's fire? I'd say because he just killed his dad. As we learn, it tore him up inside. Heck, he couldn't even kill his mother, and you are thinking he should have been able to kill his dad in front of her? 

I think you want a villain who is all evil. No chance for redemption. Instead we have one that is decidedly human. Has emotions, has loved ones that they care about. Heck, even Vader didn't kill his own family as cold-blooded as you want Kylo to behave. 

He paused, he watched as Luke was being fried by force lightning and he decided that he wouldn't be that man.  

I think Kylo is as compelling of a character as Vader turned out to be. Just different. It would be boring if we just got another star wars villain who is decidedly evil. Through and through.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 29, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Make it a bit different from the others.




The pattern "He wins, they tie, she wins" is so... pat and neat as to be nearly cliche, and not particularly compelling.  "I gained power and finally beat you," isn't an interesting plotline.

More broadly, the fights are great tension, but the pattern of who wins which one is not something I'm invested in.  I care more about why they fight, and what happens as a result of their conflicts, than exactly who wins when.

Remember - Luke brings about the fall of Vader and Palpatine after the fighting was done and over with - he lost the lightsaber battle, but won the real, important conflict, which was not one of martial prowess.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Istbor said:


> Whoa! Who said anything about Han being a deadbeat dad!? As you point out, we don't know anything about how Kylo was raised. We are told Snoke had influence on him, and was sent to Luke's academy to try and end that influence. We don't know whether he was in some sort of broken home, or loving family however. Certainly Han seemed to feel some amount of guilt or as if he had failed as a father.
> 
> I am not sure how it would affect me if my only son became and evil bastard, and I blame myself or whoever? We don't know. Han and Leia clearly are dealing with this probably complex scenario in their own ways.
> 
> ...




I wouldn't make Kylo unredeemable. But Rey just met Han and he wasn't her uncle. Han dying 

 I wouldn't have Kylo do the redemption thing a'la Vader. Maybe with a twist like a double turn.

 He might kill Han in front of Leia but wouldn't kill Leia like TLJ. 

 Disney had the right ingredients but they missed a few, didn't have a recipe and over used some they did have.

 You would have to play it safe with VII regardless.  Lightsabers, X Wings, Jedi.

 I wouldn't go out of my way to antagonize fans and it's obvious what would do it like treating the OT characters badly. You need a little bit of fan service which TFA had a lot of.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Aug 29, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> ^I know it isn't Taoist philosophy, but it has shades of it - thus "quasi-Taoist leanings."
> 
> But it also isn't the strongly dualistic Abrahamic Good vs. Evil that you imply.




I didn't imply anything Abrahamic at all. The Force is part of nature, the Dark Side is a cancer. That's been canon since the start.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 29, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I didn't imply anything Abrahamic at all. The Force is part of nature, the Dark Side is a cancer. That's been canon since the start.




Ehhh.  While Episodes 4, 5, and 6 imply this (but don't actually state it directly), the rest of the material is not so clear on that point.  There's a lot of philosophy about the Force, and not all of it is so black and white.  Traditional Jedi may say it was so, but is that The Truth, or merely the philosophy used to keep a large group of force users under control?


----------



## Mercurius (Aug 29, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I didn't imply anything Abrahamic at all. The Force is part of nature, the Dark Side is a cancer. That's been canon since the start.





Umbran said:


> Ehhh.  While Episodes 4, 5, and 6 imply this (but don't actually state it directly), the rest of the material is not so clear on that point.  There's a lot of philosophy about the Force, and not all of it is so black and white.  Traditional Jedi may say it was so, but is that The Truth, or merely the philosophy used to keep a large group of force users under control?




I'm no Star Wars expert, but my sense of it is that Force philosophy is rather messy and often contradictory, with a variety of possible interpretations (sort of like real life). I don't know if there is a singular canonical interpretation, but could be wrong.

I like what Umbran says here, that the Jedi have their own interpretation which they view as canon. I'd love to see SW explore other "Force Paradigms" beyond the Jedi-Sith.


----------



## Istbor (Aug 29, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I wouldn't make Kylo unredeemable. But Rey just met Han and he wasn't her uncle. Han dying
> 
> I wouldn't have Kylo do the redemption thing a'la Vader. Maybe with a twist like a double turn.
> 
> ...




I don't understand your first thought/sentence at all.

Especially, "But Rye just met Han and he wasn't her uncle. Han dying". 

What is that? What does meeting Han have to do with him being her uncle. And then just, Han dying. Like from old age? Boring.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

Istbor said:


> I don't understand your first thought/sentence at all.
> 
> Especially, "But Rye just met Han and he wasn't her uncle. Han dying".
> 
> What is that? What does meeting Han have to do with him being her uncle. And then just, Han dying. Like from old age? Boring.




Lol distracted and didn't finish it.

 Han and Rey didn't have a strong relationship or even an implied one like Luke had with Uncle Ben. 

 I think Kylo killing Han in front if Leia would have meant more especially if they were still together. 

 A reunion of some sort between the 3 onscreen should have also been done IMHO.

 Luke sitting on an island failing is also a silly idea, they could have put him somewhere else out of the way. 

 They sort of undid the OT and made the characters look like jobbers to try and get the new lot over with the fans.

 It didn't seem to work out so well. Toy sales, polling at Star Wars.com, online reactions etc.

They built a billion dollar theme park and didn't put any OT stuff in it lol.

Geniuses.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 30, 2019)

Some Star Wars conservationists suggest a more extreme approach, that Star Wars should abandon all attempts at re-invention and instead cater exclusively to the old-school fanbase. Though attractive, this approach may prove impractical as a long-term solution.


----------



## Hussar (Aug 30, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> /snip
> 
> It didn't seem to work out so well. Toy sales, polling at Star Wars.com, online reactions etc.
> 
> ...




Wait, what?  There's a giant Millennium Falcon right in the middle of that park?  Oh, right, it's got a square deflector dish, so it's not OT?  GImme a break.

Toy sales are down.  Yeah, there's a shock.  A fifty year old property that's popular with aging men isn't selling as well anymore.  It's cyclical.  It happens.  

But, for me, I rather hope that DIsney continues to give a giant middle finger to the "fans" because they are making better movies that I want to see.  Let the fanbois fall off the face of the earth and let the rest of us enjoy something in peace.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Some Star Wars conservationists suggest a more extreme approach, that Star Wars should abandon all attempts at re-invention and instead cater exclusively to the old-school fanbase. Though attractive, this approach may prove impractical as a long-term solution.




I think they have to stick to a few tropes. Doesn't matter what the franchise is the fans will turn in you if they expect ABC and serve you XYZ.

See 4E.

No change is bad, so is blowing up the world.

If you want to get away from the Skywalker's a different era is a way to do it for original stories. The old republic era is popular dues to the KoToR games.

Several of the old EU characters pre Disney sometimes polled higher than OT characters. I think Thrawn beat Vader once in a poll. The holy Trinity of EU characters would be Thrawn, Mara Jade and HK-47 if I had to guess. Canderous and Jaina Solo would probably be up there as well.

I said previously I would have cherry picked the old EU, for new canon the KoToR era would have been part of it. Star Wars was making millions on years with no new movies and the EU was fueling it. That's a lot of disgruntled fans to PO.

 The new characters can't win polls on Starwars.com lol.


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## Hussar (Aug 30, 2019)

What’s a KoTOR? The only word in there I know is Thrawn.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

Hussar said:


> What’s a KoTOR? The only word in there I know is Thrawn.




Knights of the Old Republic. Set 4000 years before  ANH. Popular era and a video game. Kathleen Kennedy hinted at it in a Q&A.

It's popular with the hardcore, and casuals who played the games, read the comics etc.

That, Thrawn Trilogy and the X-Wing novels would probably be the holy Trinity of the old EU. The rpg sourcebook is also expensive from when WotC had the SW license. They lost it because they got greedy.

It's the obvious place to go if you want to get away from Skywalker's.


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## Hussar (Aug 30, 2019)

So we should stick with a twenty year old video game for inspiration?

A thirty year old series of novels?

Yeah. No thanks. Mine the good stuff and pitch the rest.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

Hussar said:


> So we should stick with a twenty year old video game for inspiration?
> 
> A thirty year old series of novels?
> 
> Yeah. No thanks. Mine the good stuff and pitch the rest.




It's basically what I'm saying. I would have mined it a bit deeper. Kylo is very similar to Han's EU kid.

Enjoy Episode IX The Rise of Dark Empire 2.0.


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## Hussar (Aug 30, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It's basically what I'm saying. I would have mined it a bit deeper. Kylo is very similar to Han's EU kid.
> 
> Enjoy Episode IX The Rise of Dark Empire 2.0.




Y’know, if you actually meant that I’d be so happy. But instead we have to listen to endless bitching from fanboys. Sigh. Can’t I just like something I like in peace without having someone come and widdle in my corn flakes? 

Just once?


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Y’know, if you actually meant that I’d be so happy. But instead we have to listen to endless bitching from fanboys. Sigh. Can’t I just like something I like in peace without having someone come and widdle in my corn flakes?
> 
> Just once?




 I'll create a Disney Widdled in my cornflakes thread.


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## Imaculata (Aug 30, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Some Star Wars conservationists suggest a more extreme approach, that Star Wars should abandon all attempts at re-invention and instead cater exclusively to the old-school fanbase. Though attractive, this approach may prove impractical as a long-term solution.




I think there's only so far you can go with the old canon. I believe it was Rich Evans (from Red Letter Media) who said that the Star Wars universe, regardless of all it's expanded universe stuff, is pretty small. And what he meant by that, is that if you're doing anything related to Star Wars, it always has to fall back on Stormtroopers, Darthvader, Lightsabers, X-wings, Tie Fighters, Walkers, Jedi, Galactic Super Weapon, Millenium Falcon. It really is a very small universe when they think about it, and there's not much creative freedom. Anything outside those bounderies won't feel like Star Wars.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

Imaculata said:


> I think there's only so far you can go with the old canon. I believe it was Rich Evans (from Red Letter Media) who recently said that the Star Wars universe, regardless of all it's expanded universe stuff, is pretty small. And what he meant by that, is that if you're doing anything related to Star Wars, it always has to fall back on Stormtroopers, Darthvader, Lightsabers, Tie Fighters, Walkers, Jedi. It really is a very small universe when they think about it, and there's not much creative freedom. It's very restrictive, because it has to be, or it won't feel like Star Wars.




You can change the time frame. 

 The force helps but you can have good Star Wars without it


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## Hussar (Aug 30, 2019)

Part of me hopes that @Zardnaar is 100% right and that the new Star Wars movie crashes and burns.  Then I can watch as Disney closes the shutters and lets the IP stay fallow for the next twenty years or so until the "fans" have aged out and then they can bring it back for the rest of us.  

The viciousness of the Star Wars "fans" is just unbelievable.  I mean, good grief, there's currently a twitterstorm because the teaser trailer doesn't have a reflection of a cape in the fight between Kylo Ren and Rei.    SERIOUSLY?!?!?  This is what it's come to?  People losing their minds over trivial crap like this when the OT had storm troopers banging their heads on doorways?  

I'm just so 100% fed up with people who pretend to be fans but just want to tear things down rather than be any part of anything positive.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Part of me hopes that @Zardnaar is 100% right and that the new Star Wars movie crashes and burns.  Then I can watch as Disney closes the shutters and lets the IP stay fallow for the next twenty years or so until the "fans" have aged out and then they can bring it back for the rest of us.
> 
> The viciousness of the Star Wars "fans" is just unbelievable.  I mean, good grief, there's currently a twitterstorm because the teaser trailer doesn't have a reflection of a cape in the fight between Kylo Ren and Rei.    SERIOUSLY?!?!?  This is what it's come to?  People losing their minds over trivial crap like this when the OT had storm troopers banging their heads on doorways?
> 
> I'm just so 100% fed up with people who pretend to be fans but just want to tear things down rather than be any part of anything positive.




 I stay off Twitter personally. I thought the trailer was decent. Visually great.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 30, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Ehhh.  While Episodes 4, 5, and 6 imply this (but don't actually state it directly), the rest of the material is not so clear on that point.  There's a lot of philosophy about the Force, and not all of it is so black and white.  Traditional Jedi may say it was so, but is that The Truth, or merely the philosophy used to keep a large group of force users under control?



Meh. There are few SW takes that fill me with a greater apathy toward the entire franchise than this one.


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## Umbran (Aug 30, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Meh. There are few SW takes that fill me with a greater apathy toward the entire franchise than this one.




I can understand the attraction of moral simplicity.  

But when the main metaphysic of a fiction is built on a moral premise, if that premise is too simple, you quickly explore the entire premise.  A longer-running franchise needs to have more space for exploration of its own themes, and absolutism doesn't have that space.  It'll hold up for a movie or three, sure, but then you're done.  

This is precisely why the larger SW universe had these alternate views of the Force - because the super-simple Jedi/Sith dichotomy has limits to its theme potential.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 30, 2019)

Umbran said:


> I can understand the attraction of moral simplicity.
> 
> But when the main metaphysic of a fiction is built on a moral premise, if that premise is too simple, you quickly explore the entire premise.  A longer-running franchise needs to have more space for exploration of its own themes, and absolutism doesn't have that space.  It'll hold up for a movie or three, sure, but then you're done.
> 
> This is precisely why the larger SW universe had these alternate views of the Force - because the super-simple Jedi/Sith dichotomy has limits to its theme potential.




Firstly, the moral fabric of the setting’s magic isn’t the only facet of the setting that can be explored. Each new story doesn’t need to explore new facets of that magic, much less specifically new moral facets.

Further, the concept that the Force itself if Nature, and the Dark Side a corruption of Nature, doesn’t mean there aren’t moral facets to explore. The OT explored redemption, hope, and faith in others. The PT explored destiny vs free will, and how one falls, and the danger of letting yourself believe that “maybe Evil isn’t a real thing, but maybe is just something the Establishment made up to keep you in line.”
The ST seems to be exploring free will from a new angle (vs the weight of the past), the danger of viewing things like empathy and attachment as weakness (Kylo’s whole thing), and the separation of cosmic moral ideals from the realities of organizations in conflict, and the impact of protracted war, even when the cause is just.

Because the morality of Star Wars isn’t binary, it’s just the Force that is. But the Force doesn’t care about morality in the same way we do. We KNOW that with absolute certainty because Anakin is redeemed. The Force isn’t moral like a human is. It is a “Good” Force of creation, life and death, natural order, and cosmic harmony. It’s space Druidic magic, and The Dark Side is space necromancy.

Edit: also, forget the Jedi and the Sith. Even in new canon, there are more philosophies than these. And in canon, they either abstain from any use of the Dark Side, or eventually fall to the Dark Side and become corrupted monsters.


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## trappedslider (Aug 30, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I think they have to stick to a few tropes. Doesn't matter what the franchise is the fans will turn in you if they expect ABC and serve you XYZ.
> 
> See 4E.
> 
> No change is bad, so is blowing up the world.





Imaculata said:


> I think there's only so far you can go with the old canon. I believe it was Rich Evans (from Red Letter Media) who said that the Star Wars universe, regardless of all it's expanded universe stuff, is pretty small. And what he meant by that, is that if you're doing anything related to Star Wars, it always has to fall back on Stormtroopers, Darthvader, Lightsabers, X-wings, Tie Fighters, Walkers, Jedi, Galactic Super Weapon, Millenium Falcon. It really is a very small universe when they think about it, and there's not much creative freedom. Anything outside those bounderies won't feel like Star Wars.



You guys are both aware that the quote comes from the Ruined FOREVER essay on the wookieepedia right? Which needs to update to include recent movies...as to things that have ruined SW forever.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> You guys are both aware that the quote comes from the Ruined FOREVER essay on the wookieepedia right? Which needs to update to include recent movies...as to things that have ruined SW forever.




Nope.

Rewatched the trailer, the Palpatine star destroyer is a new model but it's very similar to the OT ones.

 It might be slightly different down the side but the have a mini super laser I think and the bridge is slightly different.


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## Umbran (Aug 31, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> The Force isn’t moral like a human is. It is a “Good” Force of creation, life and death, natural order, and cosmic harmony.




How is that not moral like a human is?  We don't have to think in terms of "good" and "evil".  Harmful and helpful.  Constructive and destructive.  Pick your dichotomy.  



> It’s space Druidic magic, and The Dark Side is space necromancy.




I'm not really sure what you mean to say there.  

If you are using the D&D analog - dude, Necromantic magic includes Spare the Dying, Gentle Repose, Revivify, Speak with Dead, Raise Dead and Resurrection.  It ain't all bad stuff.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 31, 2019)

Umbran said:


> How is that not moral like a human is?  We don't have to think in terms of "good" and "evil".  Harmful and helpful.  Constructive and destructive.  Pick your dichotomy.
> 
> I'm not really sure what you mean to say there.
> 
> If you are using the D&D analog - dude, Necromantic magic includes Spare the Dying, Gentle Repose, Revivify, Speak with Dead, Raise Dead and Resurrection.  It ain't all bad stuff.




Nature is helpful and harmful, constructive and destructive. But things die by the natural order. The necromancy analogy refers to necromancy colloquially. Creating undead and the like. In general, people who serve nature abhor it. A cleric who uses spare the dying and Raise Dead aren’t referred to as necromancers, and thus clerics aren’t the enemies of the guardians of Nature.

Using the Dark Side, spreading it’s corruption, is equivalent to raising undead.

Killing an enemy in combat is not. It’s no different from what happens in nature. The Dark Side is explicitly unnatural, even anti-natural.


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