# WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!]‏



## Stoat

I've been intrigued with S1 _Tomb of Horrors_ for a long time, and this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/306672-tomb-horrors-example-many-one-kind.html has me thinking about it again.

In particular, this line of posts caught my attention:



Raven Crowking said:


> The module gives you clues in the form of riddles, and those riddles are, essentially, a "walk through" for the entire module (if you can parse them out carefully).  On the other hand, if you fail to notice the first riddle, or if you ignore the clues provided, well, the module can kill you pretty quickly.






the Jester said:


> I recall one post about a newbie gamer who had never played an rpg before with a first level pc making it to the end, grabbing some loot and fleeing for his life.






WizarDru said:


> Unlike some modules, with traps that have no possible way of being decoded short of painful experience (iirc, Tsocjanth has several of these...there is no clue that one color is good and another bad, that one face on a pedestal is a boon and the other a curse, etc.), ToH presents players with a chance to figure things out.




I've heard this about the ToH before, (particularly the story about the 1st level thief who makes it through) but I've always been a little skeptical.  Acererak's clues are pretty opaque, and the consequences for screwing up are permanent.  I've tried to unravel the module before, but I couldn't do it by myself.  So here we are.

I'm not interested in whether or not the module is "well-designed" "good" or even "fun."  Some people love it, some people hate it, and that's fine.  I don't want to talk about whether or not folks enjoy whatever playstyle is necessary to survive the ToH.  I'm not interested in a long debate about challenging the player vs. challenging the character.  I definitely don't want to start a discussion about the merits of old-school play in general.  If you want to talk about that stuff, please do so in another thread.

I'm interested in this: What does it take to survive the ToH?  Does the module provide enough clues to allow the players to navigate the Tomb safely?  How much guesswork,  dumb luck or divination magic is necessary to get through the Tomb?  How much can be accomplished with caution and reason alone?

My plan is to go through the module room-by-room.  I'll post a description of the room and any hints/clues it contains for the PC's.  Then I'll give my thoughts about how a group of players might interpret those clues and apply them to Tomb. 

There's no way to do this without spoiling the module.  I don't plan on using spoiler tags, and I'd rather y'all not use them either.  So consider yourself warned.


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## Stoat

*Some Preliminaries*

I don't have any actual play experience with ToH on either side of the screen.  I'm just reading the thing and pondering the riddles.  And I'm not real good at riddles.

I started playing (irregularly) in 1987 or '88, and I started DM'ing (regularly) in 1989 when 2E launched.  I'm not fully versed in all the ins and outs of 1E AD&D.  So I welcome comments and/or opinions about any rules issues that come up.

I'm going to limit how much text I cut and paste into the thread from the adventure.  If you think I've left out an important detail, let me know.

The module comes with a lot of little pictures that the DM is supposed to show the PC's.  WotC has posted them here: Tomb of Horrors Art Gallery.

The module contains more than a few ambiguities.  How the DM chooses to resolve those ambiguities can significantly alter the outcome of the adventure.   I'll note them when I see them.  

I've got two versions of the module.  One came packaged with the _Return to the Tomb of Horrors_ boxed set, which I  purchased as a .pdf back when you could do that.  The other is a hardcopy that I picked up at a con a few years ago.  The covers are different (the electronic one has a pinkish cover, the hardcopy is green).  I'll try to keep an eye out for any differences between the two.

The module is designed for character levels 10 to 14.  There are 20 "pregen" characters in the back of the module, each with suggested magic items.  Players are supposed to roll their own hit points and pick their own spells.  Players can take any mundane equipment they want, but they can't overburden themselves.  They can also bring 1,000 gp in coins and 5,000 gp in gems.   It is suggested that the DM give the players some extra magic and/or an extra level of experience if they are inexperienced and/or few in number.  "Total novices" can also bring a man-at-arms each (no stats or suggested level is given for the men-at-arms).

It looks like the module can be run with as few as 4 and as many as 10 PC's.


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## Stoat

*Initial Clues*

The module beings with the "Legend of the Tomb", a paragraph describing some legends about the place.  Players can learn this stuff by consulting sages, casting _Legend Lore_, consulting arcane works, etc. etc.  It appears to be up to the DM how much of this information the players can learn.  

If they get it all they know:

1. The crypt is labyrinthine.

2. It is filled with terrible traps and not a few strange and ferocious monsters.

3.  But it also "rich treasures both precious and magical".  Yay!

4. The traps are "terrible".  They include "poison gases and magical protections."

5. The tomb is haunted by a demi-lich named Acererak which possesses powers that make him nearly undefeatable.

6. It is quite unlikely that the adventurers will ever find the chamber where demi-lich dwells it it so well hidden that even those who avoid the pitfalls will not be likely to locate "their true goal."

7. Only large, well-prepared parties should assay the tomb.  They should have magical protections and weapons.  They should equip themselves with "every sort of device possible to insure their survival."  They should be prepared to fail anyway.

IMO: These clues don't give the players much more info than they'd glean from looking at the cover of the module.  What do you expect to find in a "Tomb of Horrors" except traps, monsters and treasure?  Warnings about "poison gases" should encourage the clerics to prepare _Slow_ and _Neutralize Poison_, if they didn't know to do that already.  You know you're up against a Demi-Lich, so if it's after 1983 you can go and look him up on page 32 of the Monster Manual II (you dirty cheater you).  You know the Demi-lich's name is Acererak, and there has to be some groovy truename magic somewhere you can try to use (maybe?).  So there you go.  It's good to know this stuff, but I don't know that it's worth the sacrifice required to cast _Legend Lore_.

There are no random encounters in the Tomb.  The DM can choose to let the players rest outside without random encounters as well, but should not let the players know that's an option.  (They'll figure it out).

Anybody poking around the Tomb in Astral or Ethereal form has a 1 in 6 chance of attracting a Type I - IV demon.  For folks who played a lot of 1E, how rough will an encounter with a Type IV Demon be for a 10th to 14th level party?  Is it worth going into the Border Ethereal for some quick scouting?


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## Stoat

*Outside the Tomb*

Castle Ravenloft towers above the village of Barovia with its front door wide open.  The Tomb of Horrors is a hell of a lot less welcoming.   The PC's see a low, flat topped hill about 60 feet high, 300 yards wide and 200 yards long.  Weeds, briars and thorns are the only things to be found.  

A "thorough inspection" of the area reveals a crumbling cliff on the north side of the hill.  The cliff is 340 feet long and 20 feet high.  The only way to find the entrance to the Tomb is to poke at the cliff with longspears and 10 foot poles.  It takes a turn to search one 10 foot section of cliff this way.  Given how long they'll spend doing this, the players should figure out pretty quickly that there are no wandering monsters in the area.  

The players find an entrance if they poke in the right place, but they have to spend some time digging to clear a way in.  It takes an hour to thoroughly clear a passage, and one turn to clear a crawlspace.  So you have to work if you want to die inside.

IMO:  The biggest risk for players at this point is that they'll find one entrance and go on ahead without looking for the others.  If they pick a false entrance, they'll pay.   I don't see any clues in the module that would tip the players off to the fact that there are false entrances to the Tomb.  I guess paranoia is their best hope.    

I'm not sure I like making the players dig their way into the tomb.  On one hand, it creates a cool, archealogical feel to the module and emphasizes that this is a place of traps and curses, not combat.  On the other hand, all that digging right at the beginning is probably responsible for at least a few parties deciding to go on ahead and level the whole complex. Dig Spells and Earth Elementals Ahoy!   

From the air, the tomb is supposed to look like a grinning skull, but I've always thought the illustration on the inside cover looked more like a happy Halloween pumpkin.  Creepy!


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## Stoat

*Entrances*

Players who take their time will find three possible entrances to the Tomb.

The first is to the west. It is a plain stone tunnel 20 feet wide and thirty feet long.  It is dark and filled with cobwebs.  The roof is 20 feet above, hidden by the cobwebs.  (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic1.jpg) 

The second is to the east. It is also a plain stone passage, but the ceiling is visible 10 feet above.  This tunnel is 20 feet long and 60 feet long.  ( http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic2.jpg) 

The Third is in the middle. It is 20 feet wide and 130 feet long.  Even a bit of daylight will show the players that this tunnel is different.  Its walls and floor are covered with brightly covered murals and mosaics.  (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic3.jpg)

The first two tunnels are false entrances.  The third is the right way to go.  It swill take a couple of posts of its own, but let's talk about the other two first.

The first false entrance is an RBDM classic.  If the roof is prodded with any force, or if the doors at the back of the tunnel are opened, the ceiling collapses.  BOOM!  Everybody in the tunnel takes 5d10 points of damage (no save).  The only way to detect the trap safely is to burn the cobwebs off the ceiling, which will reveal that it is built from badly fitting stones.  

On one hand, I don't see any clues per se that would point out trap.  On the other hand, the trap is relatively innocuous.  The tunnel is short, and it is likely that only a few PC's will be inside when it collapses.   It does an average of 27.5 points of damage, and even the pregen Magic-User will have about 40 hit points (he's 14 level with a 15 Con).  

The second false entrance is more complicated.  According to the text, the floor will "shift" when "characters" get 50 feet down the hall.  This contradicts the map, which has a "trigger" symbol at 30 feet, but it's pretty clear that the text is right.  When the PC's hit the mark, they hear a rumbling, and a huge stone block starts to seal off the hall.  The block will trap anybody in the last 30 feet of the corridor, and smoosh anybody stupid enough to stand in front of it.  Only those in the 20 feet closest to the entrance are safe.  The text doesn't say what triggers this trap, so the RBDM move is to say it's unavoidable and undetecable.

The mechanics of this trap are complicated.  The DM is supposed to tell the players that they hear a rumble and then *immediately* count slowly to 10 (emphasis in original text).  The stone moves about 2 feet into the hall for every number of the count, slamming shut at 10.  Assuming that the players try to run to safety, they can move their movement rate in feet every count.  The slowest PC is likely to have a move of 6".  If that PC sets off the trap, he only needs to move for three counts to be safe.  So, it shouldn't be too hard for the players to escape if they set off the sliding rock o'doom.

Nothing terrible happens to PC's who get trapped at the end of the tunnel.  They're just stuck.  The module says that *only* _Disintegrate, Phasedoor, Stone to Flesh_ and _Transmute Rock to Mud_ will allow escape (again, emphasis in original text).  I don't know why _Teleport_ or _Dimension Door _ wouldn't work.  I also don't know why you couldn't just dig through the stone block.  It's 10 feet thick, but the PC's have plenty of time.


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## Celebrim

The tomb can be broadly divided into sections, each of which presents its own hazards.

1) Entering the tomb.
2) Reaching the Chapel.
3) Reaching the Pillared Hall.
4) Finding Acererak's Tomb
5) Getting Out Alive.

Entering the Tomb.
a) I wouldn't be too surprised to find some players completely unable to find an entrance to the tomb without clues.  This is particularly true of the sort of players that rely on search checks and have no back up plan for obtaining further information from the DM.  A true RBDM and a group of true novices may well stymy at the stage of, "How do I get in?"
b) There is one chance of a TPK in this section, and that's finding the left entrance (facing the hill) first, and over confidently moving forward and having no resources to get out again.  The tournament rules for this section are if anything overly strict, even for Gygax, since they ignore certain possibilities in the PH that seem comparable to those listed.  The really obvious example is "Why doesn't a stone shape spell work?"  Played as written though, this is HARSH.  The worst part of this side is that the double doors seem to present an interesting puzzle that provokes incaution to the point that the doors are reached.  About 3% of parties will probably TPK here.  It's by far the most unfair thing that a party may face for some time, mostly because they haven't at this point had time to acquiant themselves with how this module plays differently than others.  Of course, the most like result is simply that the wizard will need to rememorize spells.  This trap is much more deadly if the chamber seals air tight, but this is not indicated in the original text.
c) The right side entrance (facing the hill) is a much less worrisome trap.  Unlike the left side entrance it's not tantalizing, and it has a clue (the ceiling is covered with cobwebs) which should generally get the characters worried about the ceiling.  The cobwebs should be burned away as good dungeon hygeine, and this will allow inspection of the ceiling to get the second clue.  Any force on the ceiling will cause the trap to activate, so simply standing back and hurling something at the ceiling should 'deactivate' the trap, as would poking it with a sufficiently long object from the entrance or any number of spells.  Even if this test is failed and the trap activated, chances are it just forces one more day of camping outside the dungeon.
d) If I knew that I was facing a ToH like dungeon, my inclination would be to explore all these areas with an Unseen Servant, which with a little caution and the above suggestions should solve this whole section.

Reaching the Chapel
a) In my experience, the majority of people who don't like ToH give up before ever breaching the Chapel (area 14).  This outer area is harsh, but its not nearly as deadly as the inner area.  The outer area is a good warm up section, because it ramps the deadly up fairly slowly compared to the inner sections.  
b) The pit traps should give no experienced party much difficulty at all.  Anyone who dies to a pit trap at this level in this situation hasn't been playing much D&D.  By far the best way out of the entrance is area #5.  Area #6 is of course a notorious TPK route but any party that takes that route in spite of the obvious danger and warnings and the ease with which it can be tested for danger deserves what they get.  The worst situation a party should reasonably fall in to in the entrance corridor is trying area #4 before solving the fairly simple puzzle in area #5.  Areas #8 and #9 will get you there, but only at great cost.  The warning to avoid #4 is slight and the clue to go back and look more closely is somewhat opaque, though "Go back to the arch" should clue many groups in.  The worst part about bypassing exploration of area #5 and going to area #4 is that you'll miss the most important clue in the dungeon: "Acererak rewards your powers of observation...".  The clue is easy to miss, but also easy to stumble in on so a mixture of lucky groups and skilled groups should get the text necessary to bypass most of the traps in the dungeon or solve its puzzles, and the clues within are pretty simple and helpful.
Obviously, area #7 is a punishment zone for being somewhat foolish.  Most groups should and probably do avoid it.   
c) Room #11 contains a very useful item and good clues how to get it.  It's not entirely obvious that Acererak is playing fair at this point, so some groups may solve the puzzle and then give up on it before the reward but the item is very obtainable and highly useful if used judiciously.  Area #10 should provide no real hazard, as its a straight foward room that could be in any dungeon.  
d) Room #13 can and should be bypassed unless the party finds itself without a magic ring of any sort.  Any skilled party should not primarily be trying to get treasure unless its stuck on how to progress.
e) The Chapel itself is very straightfoward if you have the clue from the entrance hall.  If you don't and/or are inflicted with insatiable curiousity, it can be quite dangerous but most of the traps here are of the annoying sort.
f) The biggest danger of The Chapel is that on a practical level, once you go beyond it, it's a one way trip.  Up until The Chapel, you aren't committed.  You can hang around outside for as long as like.  Once you go through the puzzle door, your group is committed - because getting through it each time requires another sacrifice.  Exiting out this way is often the same as abandoning the module, so be sure to take lots of provisions with you through the door.

Reaching the Pillared Hall
a) If you can reach the Pillared Hall without a TPK, you probably won't have one.  This is about the nastiest section of dungeon ever conceived, and Gygax really throws out the stops here.  Fortunately, like the rest of the module, you are under no time pressure (see C1!) and have no proactive enemies to worry about (see I6!).  Many other adventures with less lethal sections will prove more lethal in practice.
b) If you have the entrance hall clue, you are mostly golden.  If you don't caution will still likely carry you through the section.  Area #16 is easily avoided with cautious scouting which any party that has gotten this far has likely adopted.  Area #17 is so well hidden that a party is likely to carry on to Area #18 even if they have the clue (unless they have a lucky elf), but on the whole this isn't that terrible as the jade coffer and small sack will replenish whatever resources are spent investigating it.  Fortunately, the programmed illusion as written doesn't chase the players all the way back to the Chapel, or it would be far more annoying.  As it is, even a group that falls for it is likely to only be chased back to roughly where they should have been carefully looking in the first place, and most groups will be suspicious especially if they know the modules reputation.
c) Area #19 has a must solve puzzle which if skipped will cause tremendous difficulty later.  A good many groups may simply luck into the item required using normal looting techniques, and the clue from the entrance corridor only gives small help here.  I pity the skilled group that decides its not worth investigating this room, but such a group is very likely to come back here immediately if stymied later so perhaps its not so bad.
d) Area #20 is a not particularly lethal trap that adds to the long catalog of traps in this dungeon completely negated if you can fly.
e) Area #21: OMG!  This is second most lethal trap in the dungeon, justifiably notorious, and indeed the second most lethal trap I'm aware of in the game.  Die no save, hello.  Fortunately, flight again helps and good dugeon hygeine while it produces a dangerous result, does not produce a necessarily lethal one.  So either good scouting with flight or good cautious dungeon hygiene gets through the room without incident, provided you have access to ice magic as well as fire.  Lots of deaths here and even a few TPK's as even reasonable caution could fail.


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## jonesy

Here's a good spot to drop in one attempt that I found hilarious:
http://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2008/04/tomb-of-horrors.html
Let's just say that they didn't quite make it all the way.


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## Gentlegamer

jonesy said:


> Here's a good spot to drop in one attempt that I found hilarious:
> Delta&[URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/misc.php?do=dbtech_usertag_hash&hash=39]#39s D&D Hotspot: Tomb of Horrors![/url]
> Let's just say that they didn't quite make it all the way.



That blog is a perfect example of how 'losing' in D&D can sometimes be the most memorable, and fun.


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## PapersAndPaychecks

Stoat said:


> I'm interested in this: What does it take to survive the ToH?  Does the module provide enough clues to allow the players to navigate the Tomb safely?  How much guesswork,  dumb luck or divination magic is necessary to get through the Tomb?  How much can be accomplished with caution and reason alone?




A lot of the module can be completed by a simple, almost algorithmic procedure.  I call it the "Penal battalion mine clearance technique".

1) Basic precaution: Before even setting out, everyone leaves a hank of hair or set of toenail clippings, and a very large amount of money, with a cleric capable of casting _ressurection_.
2) Arrive at tomb and find entrances.
3) Have your mage summon monsters.
4) Send summoned monsters ahead to explore.
5) From a safe distance, watch how they die.
6) Have your cleric or mage reanimate the summoned monsters.  (You may need to sew them back together with a needle and thread before they make good scouts.)
7) Watch them die again.
8) Once the summoned monsters have touched, attempted to open, examined or perused everything, send thief forward to search.
9) If thief meets hostiles, he runs with them back to the party.
10) Once any hostiles are killed and the thief is satisfied that the area is safe to move into, the party moves forwards.  Except, that is, for one cleric capable of casting _raise dead_, who stays right back outside the entrance.
11) Repeat steps 3 to 10.


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## Celebrim

Papersandpaychecks: Your "Penal battalion mine clearance technique" is one example of thorough scouting and one of the common techniques I've heard parties evolve once the nature of the tomb is apparant.  Thorough scouting is required for surviving several corridors, so you have to come up with some sort of solution prior to area #23A at the latest.  That isn't the only one, but its reasonably effective.  A Bag of Tricks works pretty well as well, and a low tech 'livestock technique' works reasonably well prior to the Chapel (beyond which its very hard to take a herd of livestock).  Personally, I prefer the 'crouching party; flying thief'* technique to 'mine clearance' because it negotiates several rooms successfully (notably room #21) that 'mine clearance' would make a mess of.

*This technique is tying a rope around the waist of the thief, standing back 50' or so, and bestoying flight on the thief.  The thief then determines the nature of the trap and advises the rest of the party how to bypass it safely.  Most traps are harmless if you can defy gravity.  For the few that aren't, such as sleeping gas traps with no saving throw or fear gas traps, the party uses the rope to haul the thief from danger or as an aid in subduing him.

However, these techniques help you bypass the death traps, but they do nothing to assist in solving puzzle rooms like area #5 (or area #9 if you end up going that way), area #14, area #19, area #24, area #25, or area #29.


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## PapersAndPaychecks

I'm not sure I understand how a thief on a rope would solve room #21 any better.  Could you elaborate?


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## Nagol

PapersAndPaychecks said:


> I'm not sure I understand how a thief on a rope would solve room #21 any better.  Could you elaborate?




The thief enters the room flying.  There is no weight on the floor so the agitation isn't set off.  The thief can scout the stuff in the room and move those things of interest to the doorway for later investigation.  This would also include the Thief unhooking the tapestries at the ceiling and not yanking on them.  Should the Thief resort to cutting the tapestries loose, he'll almost certainly be flying above the resulting sea of slime as opposed to in it.  Even if the ruling is he is attacked by the slime, it'd likely be a normal attack that allows the Thief and party to respond.


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## amerigoV

PapersAndPaychecks said:


> 5) From a safe distance, watch how they die.
> 6) Have your cleric or mage reanimate the summoned monsters.  (You may need to sew them back together with a needle and thread before they make good scouts.)
> 7) Watch them die again.




As a DM, I would certainly be a hard-ass on this approach. Some things are obvious (failing into a pit), but do you know how they really died (spikes, poison, etc?). I would also be biased by D&D 3.5 in which summoned creatures return to their home plane upon being killed (so you cannot study the body, revive, etc). The 1e version of the spell does not say it explicitly, but then again neither does the 3e version - it is in the write-up of Summoning spells in the 3.x PHB.

I never understood allowing the PCs to drive a herd of animals into the Tomb. It's traditional (and later official) place is in the Vast Swamp. A barge of cattle would not make it - it would be a nice snack for some of the swamp denizens served up on its own platter.  Plus,  that place is so evil I doubt they would even go in without expending magical resources. The description of the tomb's exterior indicates that nature does not take a strong hold there - the animals would sense that. It would take a lot of magic and resources to get them there and get them in - resources that just could be spent on the exploration itself (kinda like Hannibal and his elephants).


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## Celebrim

Nagol said:


> The thief enters the room flying.  There is no weight on the floor so the agitation isn't set off.  The thief can scout the stuff in the room and move those things of interest to the doorway for later investigation.




This far is correct.

If floating, whether by levitation or excellent flight, the thief can hold aside the curtain and open the secret door without risk of tearing the curtain if he's not touching the agitated floor (asuming his flight manueverability is good enough to hover with).  This allows everyone else to cross the room in safety, at most taking 1 hit point of damage from the agitated floor.



> This would also include the Thief unhooking the tapestries at the ceiling and not yanking on them.




IMO, the phrase, 'firmly affixed' indicates the tapestries cannot be simply  unhooked.  They are apparantly attached either by solid rings or magically nailed into the wall.  Knowing Gygax, he would simply rule that any attempt to remove the tapestries tore them, or else that removing the tapestries from their bindings broke the spell that kept them in tapestry form.



> Should the Thief resort to cutting the tapestries loose, he'll almost certainly be flying above the resulting sea of slime as opposed to in it.  Even if the ruling is he is attacked by the slime, it'd likely be a normal attack that allows the Thief and party to respond.




This is generous, and we must assume that the DM is not going to be generous in his rulings in ToH.


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## Celebrim

PapersAndPaychecks said:


> I'm not sure I understand how a thief on a rope would solve room #21 any better.  Could you elaborate?




It's rope + flight.  Flight solves most of the problems, but a) flight in 1e had a random duration.  The purpose of the rope was primarily to belay me in the event that flight failed unexpectedly.   Also b), having a rope around me allowed me to be pulled out of situations where the trap was not triggered by pressure plates and the like.   In particular, a rope around the scout is essential for surviving the trap in area #23.


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## PapersAndPaychecks

Celebrim said:


> It's rope + flight.  Flight solves most of the problems, but a) flight in 1e had a random duration.




Flight in 1e still does have a random duration.  I've never understood why so many ENWorlders discuss 1e in the past tense, it's bizarre.


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## PapersAndPaychecks

amerigoV said:


> As a DM, I would certainly be a hard-ass on this approach. Some things are obvious (failing into a pit), but do you know how they really died (spikes, poison, etc?). I would also be biased by D&D 3.5 in which summoned creatures return to their home plane upon being killed (so you cannot study the body, revive, etc). The 1e version of the spell does not say it explicitly, but then again neither does the 3e version - it is in the write-up of Summoning spells in the 3.x PHB.




There are places where you'd need to use _clairvoyance_ or a crystal ball.  Not really an obstacle for the presumed party.


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## Plane Sailing

PapersAndPaychecks said:


> Flight in 1e still does have a random duration.  I've never understood why so many ENWorlders discuss 1e in the past tense, it's bizarre.




It's an older edition. Past tense is normal. If you can't understand it, I'd recommend at least not worrying about it!


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## Jhaelen

PapersAndPaychecks said:


> A lot of the module can be completed by a simple, almost algorithmic procedure.  I call it the "Penal battalion mine clearance technique".



Excellent!

This showcases why I never liked the module: It's an exercise in tediousness. Playing through the module 'effectively' is about as exciting as reading a manual on 'safety procedures'.

And as the OP already correctly cited: It's terrible adventure design: There's a single vital clue and if that is missed by the party they're as good as dead. And even if they find the clue, the riddle-rhyme is pretty obscure. Usually, you realize what the clue was supposed to be about only after the fact (if at all).

The module also includes a lot of 'encounters' that require pure trial and error. Aside from the things mentioned in the clue, it's a guessing game. Since one of the 'merits' of the old D&D rules was the lack of character skills, you were also expected to describe every action in excruciating detail.

So: What does it take to make it through the module?
Dogged determination, a very high degree of resistance to tediousness, and a dislike of 'modern' adventure design methods (or to put it positively: a preference for 'old-school' adventure design).

Alternatively, it requires one-off pregen characters and lots of beer or other intoxicants.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae

Re: the entrances:

What clues are there to tell the party that there are, in fact, multiple entrances, rather than just fiendishly hard-to-open doors?

Let's say the party finds the closing-rock-wall one first, and escape before it closes off.  The party then spends a long time hacking their way with their standard mining equipment* and makes it to the doors.

What happens then?

* Was this really a thing?


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## Umbran

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> What clues are there to tell the party that there are, in fact, multiple entrances, rather than just fiendishly hard-to-open doors?




One tidbit is metagame genre knowledge.  Typical module design of the time didn't actually expect folks to engage in mining activities - if it was designed so a trap closed off one route, then another route usually existed.


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## Stoat

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> Re: the entrances:
> 
> What clues are there to tell the party that there are, in fact, multiple entrances, rather than just fiendishly hard-to-open doors?
> 
> Let's say the party finds the closing-rock-wall one first, and escape before it closes off.  The party then spends a long time hacking their way with their standard mining equipment* and makes it to the doors.
> 
> What happens then?
> 
> * Was this really a thing?




As far as I can tell, there is are no clues at all in the module regarding the three entrances.  The Legend of the Tomb makes it clear that the dungeon is difficult and trap-laden, but that's the closest thing I can find.  

The doors in the false entrances are false.  What that means is up to the DM.  I assume either they don't open at all, or they open onto a bare rock wall.

My guess is that most parties find one of the false entrances first.  The real entrance is in the middle of the hill, and I think most groups will start their search at one end of the hill or the other.  I also guess that most groups will stop searching the hill and explore the the first "entrance" that they come to.  They'll either trigger or discover the traps, and its up to them to decide to start poking around the hill again.  I can imagine a group wasting a ton of time on either false entrance, particularly the second one.

I'm curious.  For folks who actually played the module, how did this work out?  Did you get to the real Tomb quickly or get bogged down playing with the false doors?


----------



## Bullgrit

Umbran said:
			
		

> Typical module design of the time didn't actually expect folks to engage in mining activities - if it was designed so a trap closed off one route, then another route usually existed.



Not to contradict you on this point, but the first thing to came to my mind upon reading this is the blocked corridor in the Caves of Chaos -- it specifically explains the effort necessary to clear and move beyond the blockage. 

* * *



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> What does it take to survive the ToH? Does the module provide enough clues to allow the players to navigate the Tomb safely? How much guesswork, dumb luck or divination magic is necessary to get through the Tomb? How much can be accomplished with caution and reason alone?



I'm going to throw out some information for your discussion. I'm not making judgment on these items; I'm just putting out the information for consideration. And since you are reading the adventure text, you can check what I say directly as you come to the relevant info.

The adventure seems to sometimes support persistence, and sometimes it punishes.

For instance:

The clue in the entrance path. Only if a Player has been examining the path all the way from the beginning to the end will they notice the long poem clue. Persistence to examining the path pays off with information about the Tomb.

Part of the clue mentions the color green is bad but black ("night's good color"?) is good.

Right in front of this mention is the black sphere of annihilation. The demon-face mount for the sphere is green. 

Now, the clue in the path is actually referring to the next corridor over, which the Players have not yet found and don't know exists. It is easy for the Players to think the clue is referring to what is right before them. I've read instances of whole parties jumping into the sphere (not knowing what it truly is).

Later, the 3-armed gargoyle statue: The hands have depressions fit for 100gp gems. (What does a 100gp gem look like? Are they all the same?) If you put a gem in each hand of the statue, the hand will crush the gem and dump the powder to the floor. Now, some Players would think, "OK, I don't want to do that again." But here, persistence (destroying multiple valuable gems) will pay off. When the 10th gem is destroyed, (probably along with the 11th and 12th at the same time), a gem of true seeing will materialize. (But it's invisible and may actually be completely undiscovered.) So persistence against something that would be very stupid outside the Tomb gets rewarded. (The Players have no way of knowing anything will come of destroying 1,000 gp worth of gems -- as far as they know, the crushing might never stop -- why keep "feeding" gems to the statue?)

Later, the ring slot: There's a slot for inserting a magic ring that will open a secret door. Supposedly the slot looks right for inserting a magic ring, but what does a magic ring look like, and are they all the same? And how would the PCs know that the ring wouldn't be destroyed, (like the gems earlier)?

Later, there is a secret door hidden in a spiked-pit trap: The only way to find this secret door is to search down inside the pit trap. If a party has been flying to avoid floor traps, they'd never find this door and would not be able to advance further into the Tomb. (They'd probably head on to the TPK trap down the hall.)

Later, there is a door with slots for swords: The slots apparently look sized for swords to fit into. (Again, do all swords look alike?) Even if the Players figure out that they are to insert their (probably magical) swords into the slots, how do they know their items won't be destroyed (like the gems earlier)?

These examples, and others, are reasons why I think ToH is not the logical and reasonable trap maze that some say it is. In one place, an action is punished/rewarded, and then in another place, a similar action is rewarded/punished.

And the clues that some say are readily available in the path into the Tomb is only at the entrance of the place, and requires the Players to examine something closely for well past the duration that most Players would bother. (The DM is directly told that only if the Player has examined the path all the way from the door to the end of the hall, will they discover the message hidden there in.)

Also keep in mind that ToH was published at a time when the rules prevented repeat tries on many things -- you could only roll a search check once for a secret door or a trap. So many players would be used to accepting, "You don't find anything," from the DM as the one and only shot they had. Many would not think they could just continue searching beyond the first failure.

There are many things in the ToH that break the very pattern it seems to be trying to test. 

"Be paranoiaingly cautious, but try many things." 

"Don't make the same mistake twice, but keep trying things that go bad."

"Everything you do can kill you, including doing nothing, so do everything including nothing."

Whether this is good or bad, I guess, depends on the DM and Players.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

I would also like to throw in, here: Most every solution or explanation I've seen anyone ever give for overcoming the various ToH traps sound easy and straight-forward enough, but they all come from already knowing the answer.

Yes, it's pretty easy to conceive of a way to get past a trap when:

A- You know a trap is there.
B- You know what the trap is.
C- You know how the trap works.
D- You know what solutions are not allowed. (Like what spells won't work.)

For instance: "The cobwebs should be burned away as good dungeon hygeine" -- that's easy to say when you know that putting fire into the area won't set off the trap.

If the trap was something set off by open flame, someone who had read the module would then say, "The roof should be tapped with a pole, first, of course, because putting open flame into an unseen area is just foolish." And that would sound just as logical and wise.

It's like saying, "Listening at a door before you open it is always good dungeon exploration strategy," when you know there aren't any ear seekers infesting the door. But when you are exploring a notoriously devious dungeon created by a master of the game, who is well versed in all dungeon-invader tactics, (and who created essentially all the counters to those tactics), are you going to so quickly and "wisely" put your ear to the door?

Bullgrit


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> It's like saying, "Listening at a door before you open it is always good dungeon exploration strategy," when you know there aren't any ear seekers infesting the door. But when you are exploring a notoriously devious dungeon created by a master of the game, who is well versed in all dungeon-invader tactics, (and who created essentially all the counters to those tactics), are you going to so quickly and "wisely" put your ear to the door?
> 
> Bullgrit




Why, us Grognards have Ear Horns as standard gear, of course!







Your point is a good one - but in the end the ToH is for those that both like puzzles and are gluttons for punishment. I do not mind the killer aspect of it (it creates a nice change of pace, like playing Paranoia), but I am more of an action type-player. Room after room of puzzles and traps just wear on my attention span as a player.


----------



## Jhaelen

Bullgrit said:


> It's like saying, "Listening at a door before you open it is always good dungeon exploration strategy," when you know there aren't any ear seekers infesting the door. But when you are exploring a notoriously devious dungeon created by a master of the game, who is well versed in all dungeon-invader tactics, (and who created essentially all the counters to those tactics), are you going to so quickly and "wisely" put your ear to the door?



Excellent point!

And that's basically how developing 'procedures' to explore dungeons turn into a metagame vs. the DM:
In our 1e days we created increasingly complex procedures for 'standard' situations, like making camp, setting watch, investigating doors, etc.

We defined it once and then simply told the DM we used this procedure every time, unless we told him something different.

So eventually, the DM used something that wasn't covered by the procedure which led to us players refining the procedure, etc., etc.

This can lead to a scenario where procedures become worthless, since you can never come up with a perfect procedure, and the DM can even 'improvise' to change things on the fly to make sure your procedure works (or more likely doesn't).


----------



## Stoat

*Area 3: Entrance to the Tomb of Horrors*

Everybody is in such a hurry to get inside!  But we've got a long way to go before we need to worry about Agitated Chambers or Valves of Mithril.  In fact, we're just getting to the entrance hallway.  It's 20 feet wide and 130 feet long with a 20 foot high ceiling.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic3.jpg

As I  noted above, the real entrance to the Tomb is immediately distinguishable from the false entrances.  The walls,  floor, and ceiling are covered with bright, brilliantly colored murals and mosaics.  The murals on the walls show "all manner of things" -- grazing cattle, wolves skulking in the woods, slaves of all types going about "various tasks",  and  "chairs, windows, boxes, bales, doors, chests, birds, bats, [and] spiders."  You also see pictures of a library filled with books, a torture chamber and a wizard's work room (although it doesn't really look like a work room to me).  The "torture chamber" mural shows "a painting of  [an] iron door which evidently confines some sort of a horrid creature . . .  which can be loosed to torment prisoners."  The exact wording is important here, and if your DM doesn't give it to you, you'll likely miss one of the ways out of this area.

A two-foot wide line of bright red tiles snakes its way down the hallway.  It branches at the very end, heading either to the Arch of Mist or to the Face of the Great Green Devil.  

There's a lot to talk about here (the module breaks the corridor up into four separately-numbered areas) and the most important is Acererak's riddle.  But before we get there, I want to talk about two other things.

First, pit traps.  There are five pit traps in the hallway.  The Red Path will take you right into three of them.  If you're poking ahead with a  pole, you'll find a pit 2 out of 3 times.  If you trigger one, there's a percentage chance (derived from your dexterity) that you won't fall in.  At Dex 18, you have a 24% chance to avoid falling into a pit.  The pits are only 10 feet deep, but they've got save or die poison spikes at the bottom of them.

My understanding is that the 1E thief can't make a  Find Traps roll to detect the pits.  The PHB says that the Find Traps ability "pertains to relatively small mechanical devices such as poison needles, spring blades and the like."  Am I reading that correctly?   If so, then there isn't an easy mechanical way to look for the pits.  The party either (a) uses a 10 foot pole and blunders into 1 out of 3 pits; (b) uses a "goblin mine detector" (a goat, hireling or PC played by your little brother); (c) uses flight or levitation; (d) gets lucky or (e) falls in.  At any rate, I ain't seeing no clues to avoid the pits here.  The PC's will have to rely on luck and/or ingenuity.

Second, concealed doors.  There's a door behind the "torture chamber" mural .  It's marked as a "concealed door" on the map.  Why is this not a secret door?  As I understand it, you detect a concealed door by rolling dice.  Elves get a 1 in 6 chance to detect concealed doors that they just walk by and a 50-50 chance to find them if they look.  I assume there are similar numbers for non-elven PC's too?  

The door in question is hidden behind plaster and lath.  To open it, you have to bust down the wall.  How many of you guys would really let an elf find it just by walking past?  

IMO: There are no real "clues" to help the PC's find or avoid the pit traps.  There are a number of pretty ordinary ways to detect pits, but Acererak isn't giving you any particular help.  I think the clue for finding the concealed door is pretty clever -- it's behind the painting of a door!  Duh!


----------



## WHW4

Just wanted to chime in and say I'm enjoying this thread; I'm considering throwing ToH out into my campaign world, dropping some clues it exists and seeing if the players bite and want to break themselves upon the wheel of pain. I presume they will leave the thing alone more than likely but I like to give them the option.

Reading through the module itself, I have to agree that it does seem to reward and punish someone who uses one method to get through the thing. Sometimes action A will make sense, then next situation it was the wrong thing to do, despite looking correct. It reminds me of Dragon's Lair; better hit the button at the right time which is only evident after dying twenty times.


----------



## amerigoV

WHW4 said:


> Just wanted to chime in and say I'm enjoying this thread; I'm considering throwing ToH out into my campaign world, dropping some clues it exists and seeing if the players bite and want to break themselves upon the wheel of pain. I presume they will leave the thing alone more than likely but I like to give them the option.




I'm tempted to do the same. I may not make them partake, but let them know it is there. If they don't tackle it, then the shame is on them for their fear.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> The exact wording is important here, and if your DM doesn't give it to you, you'll likely miss one of the ways out of this area.



This is a *very* important note for this entire adventure. A lot of live or die info is reliant on the DM's description, throughout this Tomb.

And unfortunately, the module text is written in the Gygax stream of consciousness style (which seemed his standard for module text, at the time) -- a lot of information crowded together in one very long paragraph. For instance, check out the text for something Stoat has already covered:




It would be too easy for a DM to miss some important item in that wall of text. A group's success or failure in this Tomb can have a lot to do with how well the DM handled the descriptions and clues -- how well the DM can pull out the important info from that dense mass of text.

This module really could use a good editor to organize how the information is presented better.

A funny anecdote: I knew a DM who went through his copy of this adventure with a yellow crayon, (before we had highlighters), marking the important text in the paragraphs. He stopped trying after a couple pages because he found that he had been marking pretty much every other sentence. He showed me one page of his work and it was nearly all yellow.

Bullgrit


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

One thing of note about area 3 is that in the description of the area it implies that there is a point marked 'B' on the map and if the characters study the floor up to this point 'B' they will magically learn the message. The problem comes when you look at the map and see that there is no point 'B'. Depending on where the DM places point 'B' the chance of finding the riddle can change.


----------



## Corathon

Stoat said:


> The module is designed for character levels 10 to 14.  There are 20 "pregen" characters in the back of the module, each with suggested magic items.  Players are supposed to roll their own hit points and pick their own spells.  Players can take any mundane equipment they want, but they can't overburden themselves.  They can also bring 1,000 gp in coins and 5,000 gp in gems.   It is suggested that the DM give the players some extra magic and/or an extra level of experience if they are inexperienced and/or few in number.  "Total novices" can also bring a man-at-arms each (no stats or suggested level is given for the men-at-arms).
> PC's.




In early editions, "men-at-arms" meant zero-level fighters.


----------



## Corathon

Stoat said:


> *Area 3: Entrance to the Tomb of Horrors*
> 
> First, pit traps.  There are five pit traps in the hallway.  The Red Path will take you right into three of them.  If you're poking ahead with a  pole, you'll find a pit 2 out of 3 times.  If you trigger one, there's a percentage chance (derived from your dexterity) that you won't fall in.  At Dex 18, you have a 24% chance to avoid falling into a pit.  The pits are only 10 feet deep, but they've got save or die poison spikes at the bottom of them.
> 
> My understanding is that the 1E thief can't make a  Find Traps roll to detect the pits.  The PHB says that the Find Traps ability "pertains to relatively small mechanical devices such as poison needles, spring blades and the like."  Am I reading that correctly?





Hmm, I've always let thieves try to find things like pit traps using their skills. Maybe that's not BTB?



Stoat said:


> If so, then there isn't an easy mechanical way to look for the pits.  The party either (a) uses a 10 foot pole and blunders into 1 out of 3 pits; (b) uses a "goblin mine detector" (a goat, hireling or PC played by your little brother); (c) uses flight or levitation; (d) gets lucky or (e) falls in.  At any rate, I ain't seeing no clues to avoid the pits here.  The PC's will have to rely on luck and/or ingenuity.




Actually there's the 2nd level clerical spell _find traps_, the 2nd level MU spell _detect invisible_ (which show the seams along the edge of the trapdoor, as it finds secret doors in just that way) not to mention _true seeing/sight_. Also, the dwarven ability to find sliding/shifting walls or rooms.
And if anyone actually dies due to the posion the party's cleric isn't doing his job. The _slow poison spell_ can reviev someone that failed a save vs. poison if done within 1 turn/level of "death".


----------



## Stoat

Corathon said:


> Hmm, I've always let thieves try to find things like pit traps using their skills. Maybe that's not BTB?




I have too.  But I know I've seen folks around who didn't, and the text of the 1E PHB doesn't seem to allow it.



> Actually there's the 2nd level clerical spell _find traps_, the 2nd level MU spell _detect invisible_ (which show the seams along the edge of the trapdoor, as it finds secret doors in just that way) not to mention _true seeing/sight_. Also, the dwarven ability to find sliding/shifting walls or rooms.
> And if anyone actually dies due to the posion the party's cleric isn't doing his job. The _slow poison spell_ can reviev someone that failed a save vs. poison if done within 1 turn/level of "death".




Interesting.  A DM running ToH is going to have to decide what to do with _Find Traps_.  The module doesn't mention it, and it seems pretty powerful as written.  I don't see where _Detect Invisibility_ helps.  Nothing in the PHB or this section of the Tomb talks about using it t find traps. 

And _Slow Poison_!  You're right, pretty much nobody should be killed by these pits.


----------



## Stoat

Ultimatecalibur said:


> One thing of note about area 3 is that in the description of the area it implies that there is a point marked 'B' on the map and if the characters study the floor up to this point 'B' they will magically learn the message. The problem comes when you look at the map and see that there is no point 'B'. Depending on where the DM places point 'B' the chance of finding the riddle can change.




My copy of the adventure has a "B" at the very end of the hall, right in front of the Great Green Devil.


----------



## Stoat

Raven Crowking said:


> Concealed doors are normal doors that are somehow hidden.  They are easier to find than secret doors, and can be opened as a normal door once found.  OTOH, secret doors need not only be found, but you must figure out how to open them.




I didn't know that.  Can you give me a cite?  I really haven't been able to find anything about secret/concealed doors in the books except for the Elves' chance to detect them.


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

Stoat said:


> My copy of the adventure has a "B" at the very end of the hall, right in front of the Great Green Devil.




You are going off of the hardcopy green version correct? I'm looking at the pink .pdf version.

If I understand right the pink version is the 1978 original "AD&D" publication and the green cover is the 1981 reprint.


----------



## Ahzad

i think they can find pit traps, I've always played it that way. The 1e DMG pg 19 says they can find small or large traps but not magical or magically hidden traps. I would say a pit trap is a large trap.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 3: Entrance to the Tomb of Horrors (Acererak's Riddle)*

The most important thing in the entrance hall is Acererak's Riddle.  As a few folks have noted, finding it can be a challenge.

The players must carefully study the pattern on the floor from the entrance of the tunnel to a specific point at the back of the tunnel.  If they do so, they will "suddenly understand" that a message is contained in barely noticeable runes on the floor.  

[MENTION=59539]Ultimatecalibur[/MENTION] makes an interesting point.  The map in the hardcopy version that I'm using (the one with the green cover) has a letter "B" on it.  The letter is at the very end of the hall and shows the point that the PC's have to reach to gain the riddle.  The .pdf (the older version with the pink cover) has no such mark. 

This is Acererak's meassage in its entirety:



> ACERERAK CONGRATULATES YOU ON YOUR POWERS OF OBSERVATION.  SO MAKE OF THIS WHATEVER YOU WISH, FOR YOU WILL BE MINE IN THE END NO MATTER WHAT!
> 
> Go back to the tormentor or through the arch,
> and the second great hall you'll discover.
> Shun green if you can, but night's good color
> is for those of great valor.
> If shades of red stand for blood the wise
> will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of
> magical metal - you're well along your march.
> 
> Two pits along the way will be found to lead
> to a fortuitous fall, so check the wall.
> These keys and those are most important of all,
> and beware of trembling hands and what will maul.
> If you find the false you find the true
> and into the columned hall you'll come,
> and there the throne that's key and keyed.
> 
> The iron men of visage grim do more than
> meets the viewers eye.
> You've left and left and found my Tomb
> and now your soul will die.




I'm not going to parse through the riddle right now.  I plan to wait until we're done and then come back to it.  But consider:

1.  This is just about the only riddle you'll get.  It is definitely the most detailed.  It is hidden on the floor at the end of a pit-filled 130 foot long corridor, and the corridor is filled with distracting stuff.  How many parties just flat missed it?

2.  The riddle ostensibly leads you through the entire dungeon all the way to Acererak.  To make use of it, the players need to be able to correlate where they are in the Tomb to the specific clues in the riddle.  In some places, that's pretty difficult.

3.  There's a lot of color imagery throughout the Tomb.  Does it mean anything?  Does Acererak use color consistently? 

4.  [MENTION=22238]Corathon[/MENTION] has me thinking about magic.  The pregens include a 14th level Cleric and a 14th level Magic User.  What happens when they cast _Find Traps_, _True Seeing_, _Find the Path_, _Detect Invisible_, etc., etc.?  Unlike a lot of modules, the ToH doesn't seem to contain a blanket prohibition against spells like these.  Certain traps are explicitly undetectable (we'll see one in Area 4), but otherwise it looks like the spellcasters can go a long way toward ameliorating the risks of the Tomb.


----------



## Nagol

stoat said:


> i didn't know that.  Can you give me a cite?  I really haven't been able to find anything about secret/concealed doors in the books except for the elves' chance to detect them.




dmg 97


----------



## Bullgrit

> It is hidden on the floor at the end of a pit-filled 130 foot long corridor, and the corridor is filled with distracting stuff.



More complicated than that: the riddle is not hidden in a single spot on the floor. The Player has to have been examining the entirety of the path from the dungeon entrance to the end of that hall. They don't get to spot the riddle if they just search the "B" area; it's only if they have been searching from the entrance to the "B" area that the DM is to reveal this clue.

If a Player says he's examining the path and gets nothing for the search along the first 10 feet, 20 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet!, etc. and gives up, they get no clue. How many times does a DM say, "You don't notice anything special about the path," before a Player gives up? The Player has no reason to think there _is_ a clue hidden in that particular decoration. Maybe the DM says, "You don't notice anything special about the path, _yet_"?

This is a situation where arguably ridiculous, blind, unencouraged persistence pays off. Of the Players who stuck with their examination this long, how many continued to search the rest of the Tomb with this much persistence? How long did the adventure take? Are there still adventurers inside the tomb examining every inch of the interior looking for another hidden clue? Why wouldn't the Players think more clues could be found by just sticking to a search long enough?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> More complicated than that: the riddle is not hidden in a single spot on the floor. The Player has to have been examining the entirety of the path from the dungeon entrance to the end of that hall. They don't get to spot the riddle if they just search the "B" area; it's only if they have been searching from the entrance to the "B" area that the DM is to reveal this clue.
> 
> If a Player says he's examining the path and gets nothing for the search along the first 10 feet, 20 feet, 50 feet, 100 feet!, etc. and gives up, they get no clue. How many times does a DM say, "You don't notice anything special about the path," before a Player gives up? The Player has no reason to think there _is_ a clue hidden in that particular decoration. Maybe the DM says, "You don't notice anything special about the path, _yet_"?
> 
> This is a situation where arguably ridiculous, blind, unencouraged persistence pays off. Of the Players who stuck with their examination this long, how many continued to search the rest of the Tomb with this much persistence? How long did the adventure take? Are there still adventurers inside the tomb examining every inch of the interior looking for another hidden clue? Why wouldn't the Players think more clues could be found by just sticking to a search long enough?
> 
> Bullgrit




As is often the case, a lot is left up to the DM.  

The module says that the players have to examine the "pattern" on the floor from the entrance to point B.  Simply examining the "path" may or may not be enough.  On the other hand, it might not be necessary for the players to specify that they want to examine the path separate from the entire floor.  

I'm not much of an RBDM.  If the PC's were searching the floor for traps as they went along, I'd give them the riddle if they made it to the end of the hall.


----------



## Bullgrit

> As is often the case, a lot is left up to the DM.



And that can cause a problem with a scenario that is specifically to test/challenge/put in their place the Players. How many Players failed this adventure because of the DM? How many succeeded because of the DM? 

There was a write up of one group's delving into the Tomb over on Dragonsfoot(?). The DM allowed, (by decision or oversight), the party to use the _gem of seeing_ an unlimited number of times, (vice the 12 times allowed in the text). That is a major benefit for overcoming the Tomb.

A party whose DM allows unlimited use of the _gem of seeing_ has a *much* better chance than a party whose DM was too harsh/slack/confused/restricting to even let them find the gem at all.

Bullgrit


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## grodog

Some general reactions to the ToH discussions to date:


many folks seem to be approaching the ToH through the lens of physical exploration vs. using divination and scouting magics:  _augury_, _find the path_, _locate object_, _divination_, _find traps_, _clairvoyance_, and _wizard eye_ (among many others) would likely be assumed to be in full-force after at least one or two disastrous initial forays into the false entrances and the initial tomb corridor (assuming that they didn't result in TPKs, of course); demi-human trap/stone detections are also useful here, though probably less reliable
divination magics like those above, as well as the biggies like _legend lore_, _commune_, bardic lore, sage consultation, and such, should be _de rigueur_ for high-level PCs planning to run around in some hideous deathtrap:  how else did such PCs reach high levels in the first place, if they weren't consummate planners and diviners, exercising caution and learning as much about their adventuring environs before ever getting there, as well as while on site?
PC parties were much larger BITD---look at the number of pregens offered---and were assumed to include henchmen and hirelings, in addition to possible summon/conjured monsters (per Stuart's early observations); so, if two or three hirelings or lower-level PCs fall into pits with save or die poison spikes, then you regroup by dragging the bodies back out (to raise or animate as necessary, again following Stuart's lead), stock up on _neutralize poison_ and _slow poison_, and then proceed more cautiously; larger parties were also more versatile, and more resilient (in the sense of bench depth---if you have 4 clerics in a 14 PC party, then if one gets _disintegrated_, it's not likely a major catastrophe....)
if the players and their PCs never learn from their mistakes---as with my pits example above---then no amount of diligence is going to allow them to succeed in the module; clever players who can learn from their errors, adapt quickly to rapidly changing conditions, and who may even plan ahead for various contingencies to insure a quick response to "10, 9, 8, etc." conditions, will be much more likely to survive and perhaps prosper in the tomb

Lastly, "The Tombs of Horrors" was an excellent blog that started at the end of last year, and then alas died, examining the module in detail (up through the first third or so IIRC).  The blog posts are now gone from Google cache, and from the Internet Archive.  Since some excellent insights were offered by the blogger, and I'm sure they'd be of interest to the thread, I'll see if I can find the files (which I saved) to repost them.


----------



## Beginning of the End

Bullgrit said:


> This module really could use a good editor to organize how the information is presented better.




When my DM ran it for us, he did a light re-design which included specifically yanking out boxed text so that it would be easy to read descriptions without either (a) skipping something important or (b) accidentally revealing something which shouldn't be revealed:

Justin Alexander - Tomb of Horrors


----------



## Beginning of the End

grodog said:


> Some general reactions to the ToH discussions to date:
> 
> 
> many folks seem to be approaching the ToH through the lens of physical exploration vs. using divination and scouting magics:  _augury_, _find the path_, _locate object_, _divination_, _find traps_, _clairvoyance_, and _wizard eye_ (among many others) would likely be assumed to be in full-force after at least one or two disastrous initial forays into the false entrances and the initial tomb corridor (assuming that they didn't result in TPKs, of course); demi-human trap/stone detections are also useful here, though probably less reliabl



The only group I know which made it through the tomb successfully did so by casting _locate object_ on their own gear after it was stripped from them by one of the teleports and then using _stone shape_ to tunnel their way to it. (They had already picked up all the keys through cleverness and persistence.)

Most other groups I know of either (a) die quickly or (b) succeed up until they hit the false door in area 23. No group I've ever heard about or run thorugh the tomb has ever detected that the false door is actually a real door, and they end up doubling back through the tomb convinced that they missed something (which results in them triggering all the traps they so diligently avoided previously).


----------



## steeldragons

Beginning of the End said:


> When my DM ran it for us, he did a light re-design which included specifically yanking out boxed text so that it would be easy to read descriptions without either (a) skipping something important or (b) accidentally revealing something which shouldn't be revealed:
> 
> Justin Alexander - Tomb of Horrors




I did the same! Though I really only ran the latter half or so...the first half was soooo time/DM-labor intensive, our usual DM was eventually exhausted and basically said (I'm paraphrasing), "Ok. Who wants to run this?"

I think it took us a good 2 and a half sessions just to get IN! Many MANY deaths later, and retreating, and raising/resurrecting, and numerous loss of items we simply weren't goign to give up...but the DM had had enough.

I do recall quite clearly, when I took over, looking at the module with the former DM to go over "Where we were" and what I, as the new DM, needed to know/keep in mind and thinking, "HOLY SCHIST! That's it?! That's as far as we got in two weeks?!?" hahaha.

Still, for all of the challenges (and deaths) we were determined...this as, afterall the PINNACLE of modules (of the day...and perhaps even now) for our style of play at the time.

In the vein of style of play, all of grodog's suggestions for hig level divination are spot on...unfortunately, back then, when we had 4th or 5th level spells, my group (and I include myself) were more concerned to have the uber-powerful offensive and defensive spells "at the ready" than thinking of using magic for "informative" purposes. (Hey. It was high school and we were deeply into "hack'n'slash" at the time, as I'm sure many of that age bracket were/are  

No DOUBT we would have proceeded significantly more quickly if we had gone for the divinations! I think, all told...we had a good month and half worth of sessions to complete it. But WOW were we happy/satisfied when it finished...though I think only a single player was still using their original character! lol. And even he had had to be raised at least once!

But the "this is an unfair character-grinder" was never really a thought. It was just, "GODS was that hard!...but look how rich we are now!!!"

Good times....bloody times...but good.
--SD


----------



## Bullgrit

> "GODS was that hard!...but look how rich we are now!!!"



This prompted me to go through the _Tomb of Horrors _ like I did for other classic adventure modules.

You can see my data here: Treasure and Experience in Classic D&D Adventures  Total Bullgrit -- ToH is the last entry at the bottom of the page.

The short version is: 305,790 gp total haul. Relatively low in comparison to other published modules of the same level.

Bullgrit


----------



## grodog

Bullgrit said:


> This prompted me to go through the _Tomb of Horrors _ like I did for other classic adventure modules.  [snip]
> The short version is: 305,790 gp total haul. Relatively low in comparison to other published modules of the same level.




Sure, but that looks a lot better when you're only splitting it two or three ways, with the other battered and scarred survivors


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Celebrim

Raven Crowking said:


> Bullgrit also misses that, in the other published modules, it is not expected that the PCs can recover all of the treasure.  (It is actually stated in module B1 that the PCs will not get all the treasure in a good dungeon.)  In ToH, though, the majority of the treasure is found in one area; if the PCs succeed, they should get it all.




Also, G1-3 are part of an adventure path.  In order to ensure that the characters will be ready for the challenges of the next episode, you have to cram enough XP and magical items into each module for what might have been extended adventures otherwise.  There is absolutely no evidence that the books - the DMG, the MM, etc. - ever encouraged DMs to distribute loot on such a massive scale outside of competive tournament modules, adventure paths and the like.  

Additionally, Giants and Dragons are some of the wealthiest foes you might face, so anything that features them will result in comparitively massive amounts of treasure but its hardly to be assumed that they are normally the sum total of all encounters you will have.

Actual treasure distribution in 1st edition following the rules per monster you face looks something like this:

Aerial Servant: -
Ankheg: 371 cp, 300 sp, 71 ep, 25% chance of 1 gem, 11% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 6% chance of one magic item.
Giant Ant: 3% chance of one gem, 1.6% chance of one potion
Ape, Gorilla: -
Ape, Carniverous: 260 cp, 210 sp, 50 ep, 18% chance of 1 gem, 8% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 4% chance of 1 magic item
Axebeak: -
Baboon: -
Badger: -
Barracuda: -
Baluchitherium: -
Basilisk: 420 sp, 390 ep, 880 gp, ~2 gems, 22% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 60% chance of 1 magic item (no weapons)
Bear: -
Beaver, Giant: -
Beetle, Giant: -
Beholder: 315 pp, ~ 6 gems, ~3 pieces of jewelry, 15% of 1 magic item, 2 potions, ~1 scroll
Black Pudding: -
Blink Dog: 130 cp, 105 sp, 25 ep, 9% chance of 1 gem, 4% of 1 piece of jewelry, 2% chance of 1 magic item
Boar: -
Brain Mole: -
Brownie: 63 cp, 135 sp, 38 ep, 13% chance of 1 gem
Buffalo: -
Bugbear: 120 cp, 52 sp, 37 ep, 29 gp, 6% chance of 1 gem, 2.4% chance of 1 jewelry, 0.5% chance of 1 magic armor or weapon
Bullette: -
Bull: -
Camel: -
Carrion Crawler: 643 cp, 250 sp, 179 ep, 107 gp, 39% chance of 1 gem, 14% chance of 1 jewelry, 2.8% chance of 1 magic item (no weapons)
Catapolus: 519 cp, 294 sp, 99 ep, 35% chance of 1 gem, 20% chance of 1 jewelry, 8% chance of 1 magic item
Cattle, Wild: -
Centaur: 32 cp, 70 sp, 48 ep, 130 gp, 23 pp, ~2 gems, 29% chance of 1 jewelry, 9% chance of 1 scroll, 1% chance of 1 potion, 3% chance of 1 magic item
Centipede, Giant: -
Cerebral Parasite: -
Chimera: 420 sp, 390 ep, 880 gp, ~2 gems, 22% chance of 1 piece of jewelry, 60% chance of 1 magic item (no weapons)
Crayfish, giant: -
Crocodile: -
Demogorgon: 2000 gp, 1750 pp, 10 gems, 3 jewelry, 2 potions, ~1 scroll, ~2 magic items (not potions or scrolls)
Jubilex: 2100 sp, 750 ep, 4000 gp, 3500 pp, 20 gems, 5 jewelry
Manes: -
Orcus: 1050 sp, 375 ep, 2 potions, 40 gems, 14 pieces of jewelry, 2 potions, ~1 scroll, 70% chance of 1 magic item (not potions or scrolls)
Succubus: 315 pp, 7 gems, ~3 pieces of jewelry, 15% chance of 1 magic item
Dinosaur: -
Djinn: -
Dog: -
Dolphin: -
Doppleganger: 37 cp, 217 sp, 117 ep, 150 gp, 13% of one gem, 6% chance of one jewelry, 10% chance of 1 magic item, 3.3% chance of 1 scroll
Dragonne: 2250 cp, 875 sp, 625 ep, 500 gp, ~1 gem, 50% chance of 1 jewelry, 10% chance of 1 magic weapon, 2 potions, ~1 scroll
Dragon Turtle: 2250 cp, 875 sp, 625 ep, 2500 gp, 1750 pp, ~11 gems, ~4 jewelry, ~2 magic items (not potions or scrolls), 2 potions, ~1 scroll
Dryad: 500 gp, ~7 gems
Dwarf: 91 gp, 10 pp, 17% chance of a gem, 2% chance of 1 jewelry, 2.5% chance of 1 magic item, 3.2% chance of 1 magic weapon or armor, 0.2% chance of 1 scroll
Ear Seeker: -
Eel: -
Elemental: -
Elephant: -
Ettin: 1145 cp, 820 sp, 100 ep, 1960 gp, 35% chance of 1 gem, 16% chance of 1 jewelry, 8% chance of 1 magic item
Eye, Floating: -
Flightless Bird: -
Frog: -
Fungi, Violet: -
Gar, Giant: -
Gargoyle: 144 cp, 117 sp, 28 ep, 25 gp, 10% chance of 1 gem, 4% chance of 1jewelry, 2.2% chance of 1 magic item
Gas Spore: -
Gelatinous Cube: 14 cp, 11 sp, 7 ep, 5 gp, 4 pp, ~1 gem
Ghast: 643 cp, 250 sp, 179 ep, 678 gp, 500 pp, ~4 gems, ~1 jewelry, 2.8% chance of 1 magic item (no weapons), 57% chance of 1 potion, 36% chance of 1 scroll
Ghost: 275 cp, 1625 sp, 875 ep, 1125 gp, 98% chance of 1 gem, 45% chance of 1 jewelry, 2 potions, 75% chance of 1 magic item, 25% chance of 1 scroll
Ghoul: 173 cp, 67 sp, 48 ep, 38 gp, 10% chance of 1 gem, 4% chance of 1 jewelry, 0.7% chance of 1 magic weapon, 9.6% chance of 1 scroll
Giant, Cloud: 78 cp, 464 sp, 250 ep, 3821 gp, 143 pp, ~1 gem, 7.5% chance of 1 jewelry, 21% chance of 1 magic item, 7% chance of 1 scroll

And of course, according to the discussion in the DMG, most of that coin should be converted to tradable commodities, valuable goods, and the like rather than in an easily portable form.


----------



## Stoat

If you guys want to start re-hashing Bullgrit/Quasqueton's treasure threads, would you kindly take it elsewhere.  I don't want this thread to get derailed by a long discussion of B/Q's methodology.

Moving on.

*Area 4. Fresco of the Wizardly Work Room*

Area 4 is a fresco painted on the the west wall of the entrance hall.  The fresco depicts two jackal-headed creatures holding a box.  

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic4m.jpg

The box is real --  a small bronze chest stuck to the wall.  The bottom of the box is hinged and will swing down when a catch on the top of the box is activated.  The catch is trapped with an "easily detectable poison needle trap" that can be "avoided easily" through any number of means.  Although the inside of the box _looks_ empty, if you feel around inside, you can find a lever.

[Nelson Muntz] Ha!  Ha! [/Nelson Muntz]
Pulling the lever opens a trap door immediately in front of the fresco and dumps you into a 30 foot deep pit filled with spikes!  The module is careful to note that the trap door is three feet thick and cannot be detected by sounding or by any magic which detects traps.  Even _True Seeing_ will only show the outlines of the trap door.  "_t will not show what it does."

IMO: This is an elaborate trap from the "Why are you hitting yourself?  Stop hitting yourself!" school.  Somewhere Grimtooth the Troll is having a larf.  Fooling around with Area 4 is a waste of time and a danger to life and limb.  I don't see any clues or riddles that clever players could use to pick up on that.  This pit trap is also a little more dangerous than the others in the Entrance Hall.  It's deeper.  It's harder to detect.  And its design makes it much more likely to get multiple PC's at one time.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that any of these pits are that deadly.  The falling damage won't kill anybody, and the poison spikes are less threatening than they appear.  Frex, the 14th level Cleric has a base save vs. poison of 5 or better.   As long as the Cleric lives, the party is going to be ok.

It's also noteworthy that the text specifically states this trap is undectable by magic.  Presumably, that means other traps can be magically detected.  At a minimum, this further lessens the threat from all those other pit traps in the Entrance Hall.

But I got to get this off my chest.  The fresco doesn't look anything like a wizardly work room.  Want to see a wizardly work room?  The cover of Unearthed Arcana looks like a wizardly work room.  Area 4 does not look like a wizardly work room.  It looks like some Egyptian tomb carving.  It doesn't even look like a room!  There's no perspective.  There's no furniture.  There's no wizardly apparatuses.  Why call it a wizardly work room?  Why?

I don't know why, but that bugs me no end._


----------



## Keefe the Thief

Raven Crowking said:


> The difference is not an illustration of how stingy the ToH is; it is an illustration of how off-base Bullgrit/Quasqueton's assumptions were about treasure recovery in other modules.
> 
> 
> RC




All modules should contain the following disclaimer:
_"Warning: if your PCs discover most if not all the treasure in this module, you were Doing it Wrong (Doing it Wrong is (TM) by TSR, Inc. 1984). Please cf. DMG pg. 84 (heading "Bullgritting treasure and your campaign"). Many treasure items are only included so that the DM may cackle maniacally into his Horned Helmet when his players don't find them. These boots are made for walking, but these treasures are NOT ALL made for finding".  _

*[If you want to answer this part of my post, please fork a new thread]*

Keep it up stoat! I'm greatly enjoying your thread - especially in combination with the pictures. Looking forward to your next post!


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## Raven Crowking

Removed


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## Stoat

Keefe the Thief said:


> Many treasure items are only included so that the DM may cackle maniacally into his Horned Helmet when his players don't find them. These boots are made for walking, but these treasures are NOT ALL made for finding.




A few weeks ago, my players decided to burn down a small building rather than explore it.  They were so unhappy when I told them the bright purple flames rising from one corner of the place meant they had accidentally incinerated some magic item!

Anyway, on to the deathtraps!


----------



## Stoat

*Area 5. The Arch of Mist*

Located at the far end of the Entrance Hall is a stone archway filled with swirling mist.  When the players get close, three stones in the arch will start to glow: the left stone glows yellow, ther right stone glows orange and the keystone glows blue.  One branch of the red path leads directly into the arch.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic5.jpg.

If the players press the stones in the correct sequence (yellow/left, blue/top, orange/right), the mists in the archway clear, and those who step through ON the path will be teleported to Area 11. The Three Armed Statute.  Those who just tramp through will find themselves back at the beginning of the Entrance Hall.  Anybody who walks through the arch before the mist clears gets a one-way ticket to Area 7. The Forsaken Prison. 

(Pro Tip: You do not want to go to The Forsaken Prison).  

IMO: Acererak's riddle explicitly tells you to go through the arch.  That's not a clue; it's a direction.  Do you need him to draw you a map?  Well, he can't draw you a map. He doesn't have hands! Just follow the directions!  

A party that finds the riddle has no excuse if they don't at least fool around with the arch.  The glowing stones (which only light up when you get near them) ought to encourage some investigation even if the riddle doesn't.  As far as I can tell, there is no hint or clue as to how to clear up the mist.  The players have to figure out by themselves that they need to poke the colored stones.  But there's no penalty for touching the stones in the wrong order. Trial and error should eventually clear out the mist.

That's assuming the players realize they need to clear the mist, which they might not.  There's nothing in Acererak's riddle about that one way or the other.  The Forsaken Prison is pretty sucky, but it's not a guaranteed deathtrap.  Players who blunder into it have at least a chance to blunder back out.

Get used to illustration #5.  You'll be seeing it again.

All told, this looks fairly simple to me.  I'm guessing that most of the groups I've played with would figure it out.  For those who have actually run the module, how did it work for you?


----------



## Keefe the Thief

Raven Crowking said:


> You could have forked the thread yourself, Keefe.  Needless to say, your response is a strawman, as no one is suggesting that unfound treasure is there so that the "DM may cackle maniacally into his Horned Helmet".  But, thank you for playing.  If you want to discuss the reasons that this design decision occurred in pre-WotC-D&D, feel free to fork the thread yourself.  If you do so, I'll happily discuss.




Oh, i think of your concept of "Bullgrit got the concept wrong" as a strawman, too.  But i'm sure there will be another thread soon where this exact topic pops up and which allows for ample discussion. Treasure is, after all, always strongly contested...



Stoat said:


> A few weeks ago, my players decided to burn down a small building rather than explore it.  They were so unhappy when I told them the bright purple flames rising from one corner of the place meant they had accidentally incinerated some magic item!




My players react to this with reality-changing denial a la "bah, they were evil magic items anyway - see the purpble flames?"


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## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Celebrim

Stoat said:


> All told, this looks fairly simple to me.  I'm guessing that most of the groups I've played with would figure it out.  For those who have actually run the module, how did it work for you?




After coming up the corridor, we were terrified of touching _anything_.  I've since decided that this is the main purpose of the entrance corridor.  It's really not that deadly for a party with _neutralize poison_, high hit points, good saves, and lots of spells at its command but it does get you paranoid and conveys the essential message that Acererak means business and its time to get serious.

I'd found the clue on the floor by way of Chekhov's Gun - "This red path is bound to be a clue of some sort, or the author wouldn't have thought to put it here!" - although paying attention to it cost me a trip into a pit - so we had main clue by that point.

We also had no intention of going into the Mists or through the Devil's Mouth (which we didn't even touch).   Eventually I got brave enough to touch the glowing gems, and hit them in the correct left-to-right sequence on the first try.   It was a huge thrill.


----------



## Stoat

Celebrim said:


> After coming up the corridor, we were terrified of touching _anything_.  I've since decided that this is the main purpose of the entrance corridor.  It's really not that deadly for a party with _neutralize poison_, high hit points, good saves, and lots of spells at its command but it does get you paranoid and conveys the essential message that Acererak means business and its time to get serious.




I agree that the main point of the false entrances and the entrance hall is to get the party into a paranoid, "expect trouble from any angle" frame of mind.  The traps here are mostly survivable and unlikely to end in a TPK.

Did your group interact with Area 4?


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

Hey, all - would you mind explaining the "solution" to the mist arch?

I think, Cel, you just sort of blundered into it, but is there any indication that playing a simplified "Simon Says" is the right way rather than just walking through?

Does touching the gems with a pole work, or does it have to be a hand? A bare hand?


----------



## Bullgrit

> As far as I can tell, there is no hint or clue as to how to clear up the mist. The players have to figure out by themselves that they need to poke the colored stones. But there's no penalty for touching the stones in the wrong order. Trial and error should eventually clear out the mist.



How should the characters know that the mist needs to be cleared before going through the arch? With the mist gone, the area just looks like an alcove, so I could completely understand Players thinking that the mist must be present to do something.

Heck, how do the characters know they should mess with the stones to activate anything? Maybe touching the stones sets off a trap? Remember all the comments about how the Players should be extremely cautious and paranoid? Following the red path lead to traps. Messing with the box earlier in the hall set off a trap. I guess this is a spot where the diviners have to do their thing.



> A party that finds the riddle has no excuse if they don't at least fool around with the arch.



*If* they find the riddle.



> those who step through ON the path



This is something that stood out to me from the first time I read this module: How does the DM determine whether the character walks through the arch on the path or off the path? Does he ask the Player? And wouldn’t asking that question set off every Player’s mental trap detector?

Since the path is in the center of the arch, would it be natural to walk on the path? But following the path earlier led to traps, sometimes. It also bypassed traps, sometimes. Is this a case of the Players just having to guess what the designer was thinking, and what the DM is smiling about?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> This is something that stood out to me from the first time I read this module: How does the DM determine whether the character walks through the arch on the path or off the path? Does he ask the Player? And wouldn’t asking that question set off every Player’s mental trap detector?




This is an issue that comes up for me anytime I'm playing without a battlemap and there are traps on the floor.  Consider the pit traps in Area 3.  The hallway is 20 feet wide.  Each pit is 10 feet square.  Some of the pits are set to the west, and the eastern 10 feet of the hall is safe.  Some pits are set to the east, and the western 10 feet of the hall is safe.  Some pits are right in the middle, with a 5 foot safety zone on either side.  

I had this problem the first time with I6 (which contains, my all-time favorite hall full of pit traps), and I've never quite figured out how to deal with it.


----------



## Beginning of the End

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> I think, Cel, you just sort of blundered into it, but is there any indication that playing a simplified "Simon Says" is the right way rather than just walking through?




Nope, although it seems to be a common inference (since I've seen several groups try it). And once you've decided to start hitting them in a sequence, there's a limited number of sequences to try. The archway clears of mist when you hit the right combination, so it's clear when you've done it right.

In addition, it doesn't matter. Going through without figuring out the combination isn't ideal, but it still allows you to progress deeper into the tomb.



> Does touching the gems with a pole work, or does it have to be a hand? A bare hand?




The text just says "pressed", so I would say you can press them however you like.



Bullgrit said:


> This is something that stood out to me from the  first time I read this module: How does the DM determine whether the  character walks through the arch on the path or off the path? Does he  ask the Player? And wouldn’t asking that question set off every Player’s  mental trap detector?




I've run it three ways:

(1) I ignore that text and just have the non-misty arch send them to area 11.

(2) If they don't specify they're stepping through on the path, I randomly determine whether they've done it accidentally or not.

(3) Using a battlemap, I simply ask them to show me exactly how they walk through on the map. (This does make them paranoid. But I simply make a habit of asking them to do this in the Tomb whether it's actually important or not.)

With #2, what usually happens is that some people end up in area 11 and some end up back at the entrance. And then people start trying to figure out what each of them did differently. With #3 the same thing happens, but people tend to figure it out quicker.

In one case, realizing that being on the path was important led people to go back and examine/follow the path in detail, resulting in them finding the poem. On balance, I think #2 is probably the most effective method.



Stoat said:


> This is an issue that comes up for me anytime I'm  playing without a battlemap and there are traps on the floor.  Consider  the pit traps in Area 3.  The hallway is 20 feet wide.  Each pit is 10  feet square.  Some of the pits are set to the west, and the eastern 10  feet of the hall is safe.  Some pits are set to the east, and the  western 10 feet of the hall is safe.  Some pits are right in the middle,  with a 5 foot safety zone on either side.




I highly recommend using a battlemap for the entirety of _Tomb of Horrors_ for exactly this reason: There's way too many points where precise location becomes important.

More generally, a useful mechanic for this is the old-school method of rolling to see if a trap is triggered. So rather than "the pit always opens", the might only open 1 time in 4.

The reasons why a trap doesn't trigger can be many, but I've often imagined it being "you missed the trigger". (Think about the beginning of _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ -- the floor isn't one big pressure plate; it's a bunch of little triggers.) In the case of pit traps like these, it could also be "you unwittingly walked down the safe portion of the hallway".



Raven Crowking said:


> Unless you somehow imagine that Bullgrit  doesn't assume that the majority of treasure is found




I disagree with characterizing it as a strawman, but I do think it's a  largely irrelevant distinction. We can argue about the exact percentage  of treasure which one is expected to find, but since the vast majority  of XP is coming from the treasure it has little impact on the amount of  treasure someone has at any given level. 

This is particularly true once you realize that Bullgrit is also  assuming that PCs will fight all of the monsters in a module; and that's  also non-typical.

Bullgrit's numbers, for example, show that roughly 75% of the XP  available in a published adventures was from treasure. If we set  recovery rates at 60% treasure XP and 80% monster XP, the result is that  70% of the XP is coming from treasure. This means that PCs won't  advance quite as quickly as they assumed, but the amount of treasure a  character has at any given level isn't going to be significantly  different than what they're indicating.

(The ratio of AD&D&D3 advancement is also only marginally affected by this.)

I would tend to agree with you that parties which succeed in the Tomb  are likely to retrieve a higher percentage of the total available  treasure than in other adventures. But, on the other hand, what  percentage of parties succeed in reaching that Vault?


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

Thanks, BotE!


----------



## Stoat

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> Hey, all - would you mind explaining the "solution" to the mist arch?
> 
> I think, Cel, you just sort of blundered into it, but is there any indication that playing a simplified "Simon Says" is the right way rather than just walking through?
> 
> Does touching the gems with a pole work, or does it have to be a hand? A bare hand?




I think one of the trickier parts of this area is that the text doesn't specify that the stones do anything when you touch them.  In other words, touching a stone doesn't make it blink or beep or flicker off or anything else.  I can imagine a group poking the stones a few times, not getting any immediate result, and giving up.



Bullgrit said:


> How should the characters know that the mist needs to be cleared before going through the arch? With the mist gone, the area just looks like an alcove, so I could completely understand Players thinking that the mist must be present to do something.




It isn't clear that the area looks like an alcove when the mist clears.  According to the module, "the vapors disappear, and the path appears to go eastwards."  The map shows an alcove, so that's a reasonable interpretation for the DM to use, but as far as I can tell, there isn't any alcove at all.  I think it's just a teleporter.



> *If* they find the riddle.




You can say that again. And again and again.  If the players don't find the riddle, they're going to have to fall back on magic and dumb luck to make it through the tomb.


----------



## Bullgrit

Beginning of the End said:
			
		

> Bullgrit's numbers, for example, show that roughly 75% of the XP available in a published adventures was from treasure. If we set recovery rates at 60% treasure XP and 80% monster XP, the result is that 70% of the XP is coming from treasure. This means that PCs won't advance quite as quickly as they assumed, but the amount of treasure a character has at any given level isn't going to be significantly different than what they're indicating.



To humor someone else in that original thread, I figured up what the xp award would be at “75% efficiency.” The average result at the end of ToEE was less than one level difference than using 100%.

I later figured up the xp at 50%, and the results were a little more than a level difference at the end of ToEE, but again less than a level by the end of the Giants, compared to 100%:
Treasure and Experience in Classic D&D Adventures  Total Bullgrit

Bullgrit


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## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> Pro Tip: You do not want to go to The Forsaken Prison



I'm curious how all this character separation was handled in a tournament situation. In a home game, DMs could send a Player from the room and handle things secretly. But in a tournament environment . . . how?

Bullgrit


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## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> I'm curious how all this character separation was handled in a tournament situation. In a home game, DMs could send a Player from the room and handle things secretly. But in a tournament environment . . . how?




I almost never separate the players when I'm the DM.  For one, even when I'm playing in a home game I usually don't have a good place to put the split group.  I've also found that splitting up the players is a guaranteed way to have one or more of them lose interest and drift away into videogames, the internet, etc. etc.  I also like the dramatic tension that can show up when half the group knows what's going on and can't help.

I think I'd handle this by making everybody decide what they want to do first.  I'd keep everybody at the table, and I'dd make the folks who stayed behind decide what to do.  Then, I'd go back and deal with the folks who teleported.


----------



## Gentlegamer

A poster at Dragonsfoot found a report on Tomb of Horrors from the Origins I tournament in Alarums and Excursions, and retyped the text: Dragonsfoot • View topic - Tomb of Horrors Origins 1 Review from Alarums & Excursions 4

Interesting as a primary account of the original tournment!

My favorite line: _We found ourselves inside a 10' square, 30' high room, without doors and possessed of 3 levers. At this point I announced that we were all driving spikes into the walls and standing on them. _


----------



## Stoat

Thanks for the link Gentlegamer.  It's great to have an early first-hand account of the module.  

Some little differences between the convention report and the module as published.

1.  The mist in Area 5 is described is blue in the con report.  As far as I can tell, the module does not give a color for the mist.

2.  The ring from Area 13 is poisoned in the con report.  

3.  In the con report, there are two "super gargoyles" in Area 9.

I also note that Gygax won't let elves detect doors hidden behind plaster.  The 1E DMG seems to indicate that such doors are simply "concealed", which doesn't feel right to me.


----------



## Gentlegamer

Stoat said:


> Thanks for the link Gentlegamer.  It's great to have an early first-hand account of the module.
> 
> Some little differences between the convention report and the module as published.
> 
> 1.  The mist in Area 5 is described is blue in the con report.  As far as I can tell, the module does not give a color for the mist.
> 
> 2.  The ring from Area 13 is poisoned in the con report.
> 
> 3.  In the con report, there are two "super gargoyles" in Area 9.



I think these are explainable as being differences in the earlier, pre-published version of the dungeon.


> I also note that Gygax won't let elves detect doors hidden behind plaster.  The 1E DMG seems to indicate that such doors are simply "concealed", which doesn't feel right to me.



The original incarnation of ToH was for OD&D, and the tournament was in 1975, before AD&D 'existed.' Also, the Gygax refereeing the adventure in the report was a son of Gary, most likely Ernie.


----------



## Stoat

Drum roll please . . . 

*Area 6. The Face of the Great Green Devil*

The other fork of the red path leads right up to an evil-looking devil face set into the back wall of the corridor.  The face has a "huge O of a mouth" that is *dead* black.  The mouth is about three feet wide.  If you check, you find that the whole area radiates evil and magic.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic6.jpg

At last!  A real live death trap, and probably one of the most famous death traps in D&D.  There's a _Sphere of Annihilation_ or at least something "similar" inside the Devil's mouth.  Anybody or anything that enters the mouth is forever destroyed.

IMO: The general consensus seems to be that the Great Green Devil is what Acererak's riddle is warning you about when it says to "Shun green."  As clues go, that seems a little opaque to me, but it is a clue.  Also, look at the illustration.  GGD doesn't look like a door.  It looks like a monster.  And anybody who pokes around with a pole or an arm (or a polearm!) should learn pretty quickly that the GGD means business.  Given the choice, I'd play around the arch in Area 5 for hours before I'd climb into the GGD's gaping maw. 

In a lot of ways, this is Area 4 all over again.  "Why are you hitting yourself?  Stop hitting yourself!"  The trap won't hurt you if you leave it alone.  As we'll see, that's Acererak's favorite trick -- using your curiosity to lure you to your doom.

So I've heard stories about whole parties feeding themselves to the GGD, but I have a hard time believing it happened that often.  For those of y'all who have run/played the module, how did this encounter play out?


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Bullgrit

> Shun green if you can, but night's good color
> is for those of great valor.





			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> The general consensus seems to be that the Great Green Devil is what Acererak's riddle is warning you about when it says to "Shun green." As clues go, that seems a little opaque to me, but it is a clue.



I’ve heard people say this, too. But if that line is taken as a warning against the green face, how about the immediately following words, “night’s good color is for those of great valor”? Does this suggest brave explores should go into the black mouth, (carefully not touching the green face around it)?



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> So I've heard stories about whole parties feeding themselves to the GGD, but I have a hard time believing it happened that often.



Well, now, keep in mind how sometimes blind persistence is rewarded in this tomb. For instance, say the party properly activates the arch, (right beside the GGD), and someone goes through it properly. That first PC disappears with no clue or evidence for what happened to him. He could be destroyed forever, no save, and none of his compatriots would know it. But in order to proceed further into the tomb, the other PCs should follow the first through the arch.

So is it a faulty thought process that the PCs might take the same follow-through action with the black hole? This archway and GGD pair seems like another set of reward/punishment for blind persistence in this tomb.

On one side, the party needs to go through the arch with blind faith in exactly the right way in order to advance. On the other side, the party seems to have a clue that it is to go through the gaping mouth with blind faith in exactly the right way, but this one is a TPK.

I’m not saying this all is impossible to figure out one way or another, I’m just saying that things are not nearly as clear cut and apparent to a party taking in all the clues available. And it’s worse if the party doesn’t find the one clue that is incredibly easy to miss. I would not laugh at a party who TPKed on the GGD, but I also wouldn’t throw out accusations of brilliance on a party who made it through the arch safely.

Bullgrit


----------



## Loincloth of Armour

After the arch had hooped my party, the GGD was pretty much met with a UXB-level of caution.

The riddle was not much help, (“There’s both green and black: what does that mean?”) so we quickly developed a pattern of dealing with the Tomb. _Touch nothing_.

A copper piece was thrown at the GGD from far away. (What else were you going to do with all those things? Buy a mug of watery ale? Please.) Then another was thrown into the mouth. When we didn’t hear the copper coin strike ground in the mouth, we guessed BAD stuff was involved. A lit torch tossed into the mouth (which immediately vanished) confirmed that.

What followed was us going back outside and scouring the region for any kind of stout branches we could find. Everything else in the Tomb got poked and prodded from a good distance away. We set off a number of traps this way, but mostly we survived. 



Aside: reading the Tomb afterwards reminded me about one of the Fighting Fantasy books I had read before(?)/after(?) I ran the Tomb. In it, you’re searching for the pieces of the Macguffin, but someone had spread a curse in the places you’d search. If you found all the letters D, E, A, T, H, scattered around the place, you died. 

However, if you reached the final battle without the Macguffin, you failed. So you had to search, lest you miss the Macguffin parts. But too thorough searching would end with you finding all the letters of DEATH and dying.

The Tomb feels similar. You search, or interact with the environment: you probably die. You don’t search: you miss treasure or can’t advance and fail. Knowing when each is the correct choice seems somewhat arbitrary from the wrong side of the DMs screen. There are ways around it (poking from long distances, roped/flying thieves, unseen servants on scouting duties, etc), but you really have to be in the right mood for that kind of challenge.


----------



## pemerton

Bullgrit said:


> I’m not saying this all is impossible to figure out one way or another, I’m just saying that things are not nearly as clear cut and apparent to a party taking in all the clues available.



I assume that this is where liberal use of divination spells is meant to come into it. Although Augury and Divination both have a non-negligible failure chance in AD&D.

Which isn't meant to contradict your point, just elaborate what makes it "not impossible to figure out".

As Loincloth of Amour said, a playstyle for which you really have to be in the right mood. (Not all that often, in my case!)


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit's point comparing the archway and the GDD is a good one.  There's a lot of similarity between the two.  On the other hand, the archway looks like a door.  The GDD doesn't.  Acererak's riddle explicitly says to go "through the arch," which is the best way to proceed.  And anybody planning to go through either the Arch or the GDD should be prodding ahead with a pole, sticking an arm in first or whatever.  That should reveal the dangers of the GDD.  All in all, I'm willing to say that the module does a fairly good job of pointing the party in the right direction.

But yeah, there are four numbered encounters in the Entrance Hall.  Areas 3 and 5 reward players who investigate them.  Areas 4 and 6 punish players who investigate them and should be left alone.  Area 5 rewards players who make a leap of faith.  Area 6 kills players who make a leap of faith.

As for the riddle, I'm inclined to agree that putting "shun green" (probably the GGD) in the same sentence with "night's good color" (probably a reference to what, Area 10?) seems a little like dirty pool.  As I said initially, it's a pretty opaque clue.


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

_Shun Green if you can, but night's good color
 is for those of great valor._

Those two lines are what a lot of contention is based around, the second part especially.

While the first part is still relatively easy to understand, avoid messing with things that are colored green unless you have to, I think the general ability to understand the second part of this clue has atrophied. During the time this was originally written 33+ years ago there was not nearly as much light pollution as in modern times and so a clear night sky was much easier to see. Without excessive light pollution, a star filled sky appears blue-black and a cloudy sky appears grey-black. And even those in urban inner city locations most likely had familiarity with a color that had appeared in boxes of 48+ crayons for the past 20 years, Midnight Blue.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

Stoat said:


> Bullgrit's point comparing the archway and the GDD is a good one.






Ultimatecalibur said:


> _Shun Green if you can, but night's good color
> is for those of great valor._
> 
> Those two lines are what a lot of contention is based around, the second part especially.




Reading through the comments on this module, especially the above statements, reminds me of a late-night riddle / game that was posed to me by two former Girl Scouts who had learned it at camp.  Maybe the group here is familiar with it.  And keep your mind out of the gutter!

Essentially, it involves picking up two sticks (or pencils, etc.), and handing them around either crossed, one over the other, or not.  When doing so, the person doing the handing off says, "I hand these to you [crossed / uncrossed]."  The person receiving holds them in their hands, either taking them in the state that they were offered or switching it, and then says, "I take them [crossed / uncrossed]."  Then, the person who knows the game's rules (in this case, they both knew the rules and I was ignorant) indicates whether the hand-off was done correctly.  Play proceeds until everyone figures out the rules.

The trick, of course, is that the status claimed when handing or receiving does not necessarily match what the sticks look like - holding them separately (not crossed), handing them over while saying "I hand these to you crossed," the recipient taking them, crossing them, and saying "I receive them crossed," _could be[/b] a valid play.  The goal, then, is to figure out what the real rules are.

About 5 minutes in, one of them looked at me and said, "You're a D&D player, aren't you?"

In my head I'd started simple, and when that rule didn't work, I'd been moving towards more and more complex rules - starting with things like, "The first passes can be whatever, subsequent passes are done with the sticks in the position they were last claimed to be in but are claimed as whatever you want," to "crossed = true; not crossed = false; every pass must be XOR true and every reception must be XOR false" to "the passer makes a two-character binary number from the claim (crossed = 0, uncrossed = 1, or maybe reversed) and actual pass (or maybe in reverse order), and the receiver has to switch odd-vs-even using the same logic."  Etc.

The rules are actually ...
[sblock]... that the position of the sticks doesn't matter at all.  Your claim - crossed or uncrossed - has to do with the position of your legs; whether you are sitting Indian style or not.[/sblock]

In short, a lifetime of D&D-style riddles had ingrained in me a kind of tricksy, three-levels deep thinking that was nigh-immediately apparent to one of the referees, and it seems to be a hallmark of this particular dungeon that you shouldn't be thinking like that - except when you should, of course. 

EDIT:  The fact that the rules are supposed to figured out by 7-to-10-year-olds should have also clued me in to the fact that I was getting way too complicatd in my rules. _


----------



## Beginning of the End

Bullgrit said:


> Well, now, keep in mind how sometimes blind persistence is rewarded in this tomb. For instance, say the party properly activates the arch, (right beside the GGD), and someone goes through it properly. That first PC disappears with no clue or evidence for what happened to him. He could be destroyed forever, no save, and none of his compatriots would know it. But in order to proceed further into the tomb, the other PCs should follow the first through the arch.




It takes very bad play to get a TPK on the devil face. You say the arch requires "blind faith", but in fact neither the devil face nor the arch should be tackled with "blind faith".

Things I've Seen Done:

(1) Take a 10' pole and stick it into each portal. You can draw the whole thing back from the arch; you pull back a sheared off end from the devil face.

(2) Throw an object through the arch and devil face. Then cast _locate object_.

(3) Have someone go through the arch and/or devil face with the intention that they'll cast _whispering wind_ from the other side (or similar methods). They will from the other side of the arch; they won't from the demon face. (Bad for that guy; but prevents the TPK.)

(4) Don't go through either one; find one of the other egresses out of the hall.

(5) Use an _augury_ spell to determine the weal-or-woe of each option.

It's true that you can get away with having very bad play while interacting with the arch, but can't get away with similarly bad play while interacting with the green devil face. That doesn't change the fact that the root of the problem is very bad play; not the fact that one is a hazard and the other isn't.

(And, yes, I feel comfortable describing "we all walk through an unknown magical effect that may or may not be a portal without investigating its properties in any way" to be "very bad play".)


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

Beginning of the End said:


> (1) Take a 10' pole and stick it into each portal. You can draw the whole thing back from the arch; you pull back a sheared off end from the devil face.




Can you?  If you haven't "solved" the arch's riddle correctly, anything entering the arch is irrevocably sent to the Forsaken Prison.  Couldn't that shear off the end of the 10' pole just like the orb of annihilation?



> (2) Throw an object through the arch and devil face. Then cast _locate object_.




I don't recall the range of locate object from 1E, but in 3E+ it's fairly limited.  A 10th-level caster gets you only 800' of range (and is foiled by a thin sheet of lead).  So a "no result" on one or the other or both could be possible (especially since the arch is actually a teleporter, right?).



> (3) Have someone go through the arch and/or devil face with the intention that they'll cast _whispering wind_ from the other side (or similar methods). They will from the other side of the arch; they won't from the demon face. (Bad for that guy; but prevents the TPK.)




Again, no experience with the 1E version, but the 3E version of whispering wind includes the limitation "The whispering wind travels to a specific location within range that is familiar to you, provided that it can find a way to the location."  If the two areas are discontinous - e.g., there isn't a walking or flying path between the two, and this is probable given that the arch is a teleporter - then you could have fails for both passageways.



> (5) Use an _augury_ spell to determine the weal-or-woe of each option.




This is probably the best option.


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> Can you?  If you haven't "solved" the arch's riddle correctly, anything entering the arch is irrevocably sent to the Forsaken Prison.  Couldn't that shear off the end of the 10' pole just like the orb of annihilation?




The wording used is "passed through" implying that just sticking your hand, or better yet a 10' pole, in does nothing.


----------



## Stoat

FWIW, the play report that Gentlegamer linked to summarized Areas 5 and 6 this way:



> At the end of the passageway there was a devil mouth- with an open, black mouth. Things shoved in did not return. On the left there was a door with a blue haze covering it. anything that went partway in came back, Things that went in all the way did not.


----------



## Bullgrit

Just adding information to the discussion:


			
				AD&D1 DMG said:
			
		

> Sphere of Annihilation:
> ...
> Any matter which comes in contact with a sphere is instantly sucked into the void, gone, utterly destroyed, wishes and similar magicks notwithstanding!
> ...



Does this mean the end of a 10' pole is "sheared" off, or is the whole pole sucked into the hole? (Might a RBDM say, "make a save to avoid being pulled in holding the pole"?)



			
				Tomb of Horrors GGD said:
			
		

> ...it is about 3' in diameter -- plenty of room for those who wish to leap in and be completely and forever destroyed.



So the idea of leaping in wasn't an unexpected one for the designer?



			
				AD&D1 PHB said:
			
		

> Locate Object:
> Range: 6" + 1"/level



The archway teleports to areas 3, 7, 11 -- 120', 70', 150', requiring 6th level, 5th (min for spell), 9th level. So using it on something tossed through the arch would probably work. But using it on something tossed into the GGD, the PCs wouldn't know if it was destroyed or was just teleported beyond 200' (14th level). The Tomb is 330' wide, 430' long. (The hill containing the Tomb is described to the PCs as 600' wide, 900' long at the beginning.)



			
				AD&D1 PHB said:
			
		

> Augury:
> The base chance for correctly divining the augury is 70%, plus 1% for each level...



A 14th level cleric has an 84% chance of getting it right.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

By the way, does anyone else see the title to this thread on the main forum page with the number of pages reversed?


> WIR S1 Tomb of Horrors [SPOILERS!! SPOILERS EVERYWHERE!!] 3 2 1)



It's been reversed for me since it went to 2 pages. This is the only time I've seen this reversed page numbering on ENWorld.

Bullgrit


----------



## howandwhy99

Acererak must be listening!  

I've noticed the thread numbers have been reversed since it reached 2 pages.


----------



## Gentlegamer

I thought I was the only one seeing the thread pages reversed from the index!


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

Nope - I saw it, too, and I was wondering if I had flipped some setting, somewhere, accidentally.


----------



## Dm_from_Brazil

Bullgrit said:


> I’ve heard people say this, too. But if that line is taken as a warning against the green face, how about the immediately following words, “night’s good color is for those of great valor”? Does this suggest brave explores should go into the black mouth, (carefully not touching the green face around it)?




This line is the greatest proof that the Tomb was made to challenge *the players*, and not the characters: "night´s good color" is ORANGE, the color that is good to wear at night/that has good visibility at night. 

So the line says: shun the devil green face (as it will kill you), press the lights up to orange and you are on your way (the way of those of great valor/the way of great valor, great rewards)...

And, also, the next stanza is also about the Arch of Mist: "If shades of red stand for blood..." - as, walking through the archway ON the red tiles path will take the characters to room 11.


----------



## Beginning of the End

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> Can you?  If you haven't "solved" the arch's riddle correctly, anything entering the arch is irrevocably sent to the Forsaken Prison.  Couldn't that shear off the end of the 10' pole just like the orb of annihilation?




Ultimatecalibur addressed this. But it should also be noted that this would make a very poor interpretation of how gates work: With the way most people walk, this would result in their arms being sheared off as they swung them back and forth while walking through the arch. The Tomb of Horrors is cruel; but that's probably excessive. 




> I don't recall the range of locate object from 1E, but in 3E+ it's fairly limited.  A 10th-level caster gets you only 800' of range (and is foiled by a thin sheet of lead).  So a "no result" on one or the other or both could be possible (especially since the arch is actually a teleporter, right?).




In this case, of course, it works just fine.

But, in general, the point isn't that any one of these methods is foolproof in all possible situations. It's that smart parties will gather information before committing themselves full-force and irrevocably to a course of action. And by 10th-14th level, AD&D parties have _a lot_ of resources available to them for gathering information. And if those means of gathering information fail to satisfactorily elucidate the situation while other possible courses remain open to them, then smart parties will also walk away.

If you treat the tomb like a big slot machine where you just poke at stuff randomly until you are either killed or rewarded as a result, then your life expectancy is going to be short. If you treat the unknown with healthy respect; try to learn as much as you can; and then make as informed a decision as possible, then your odds of survival will greatly increase.

(And while the Tomb of Horrors certainly intensifies this, I've found it to be generally pretty true in virtually any situation: Smart parties that investigate before leaping in will tend to survive longer and suffer fewer TPKs than parties that are reckless and thoughtless.)


----------



## Stoat

Dm_from_Brazil said:


> This line is the greatest proof that the Tomb was made to challenge *the players*, and not the characters: "night´s good color" is ORANGE, the color that is good to wear at night/that has good visibility at night.
> 
> So the line says: shun the devil green face (as it will kill you), press the lights up to orange and you are on your way (the way of those of great valor/the way of great valor, great rewards)...
> 
> And, also, the next stanza is also about the Arch of Mist: "If shades of red stand for blood..." - as, walking through the archway ON the red tiles path will take the characters to room 11.




That's an interpretation I haven't heard before.  I'm not sure I'm convinced, and here's why.  

I interpret "night's good color to refer to Area 10, which is where the PC's will eventually wind up if they go through the arch at Area 6.  The way out of Area 10 is through a tunnel hidden by a black sphere.  There is an orange sphere in Area 10, but it's a trap.

I don't want to get ahead of myself, but if "night's good color" doesn't refer to the proper exit from Area 10, then I'm not sure there is a clue to that Area.  And (as I'll discuss when we get there) I really, really think the PC's need a clue there.


----------



## Stoat

Also, the reversed thread numbers are obviously a clue to a complex and deadly trap.  Solve them or die!


----------



## MarkB

The reversed-numbers clue is perfectly obvious. Clearly, if we read the thread in reverse order from last post to first, it will revealAARGHAARGHOHMYGODMYSPLEEN


----------



## Stoat

*Area 7. The Forsaken Prison*

If you made it here, you screwed up.  

Those who walk through Area 5. The Arch of Mist without solving the riddle of the Simon Says Stones are teleported to the Forsaken Prison.  It's a "miserable cubicle" 10 feet square and 10 feet high.  There is no visible way in or out, "and even a magical means of detection will not indicate any.  There are 3 iron levers set in the south wall.

To get out, you have to simultaneously push all 3 levers straight up.  That will open a trapdoor in the ceiling that leads to a little crawlspace.  Following the crawlspace eventually takes you back to the Entrance Hall.  If you use "magical vision means" or tap in the right place, you can find a secret door in the ceiling of the crawlspace that takes you to Area 13.

If you push the levers straight down, the floor under you turns into a pit.  D'oh!  The pit is 100' deep and falling in does 10d10 points of damage (average 55).  Surprisingly, there are no poisoned spikes in the pit.  However, you only have 1 turn to get out before the trapdoor closes and seals you inside.

Do anything else you care to do with the levers.  It won't have any effect.

IMO:  The Forsaken Prison is obviously a punishment room.  You get here by failing to solve Area 5.  It's a pretty boring place.  No clues, no brightly colored mosaics, no picture -- just them 3 levers.  If there's a way to solve the lever "puzzle" other than trial and error, I'd like to hear it.  As far as I can tell, there are no clues or hints or anything to guide the players.

The pit trap is fairly deadly.  The pregens have pretty good Constitutions, and I'd guess that a fair number of them will survive the fall.  Those who do risk starving to death in the dark unless they can climb out in 1 turn. (Refresh my memory: 1 turn is 10 minutes, right?)  In my experience, that won't be too hard.  M-U's should be able to fly or levitate (or just teleport the hell out).  Thieves climb.  And any party that doesn't have 100 feet of ropes with grappling hooks deserves what they get.

Also: "miserable cubicle" makes me glad I have an office with a window.


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

Up for ceiling, down for floor? Pretty simple logic there. 

If the combinations to open the ceiling and floor were random combinations of up, down and middle you might have a point about being difficult to figure out.


----------



## Stoat

Ultimatecalibur said:


> Up for ceiling, down for floor? Pretty simple logic there.




I agree that this is a reasonable way to look at Area 7, but it seems to me like the kind of interpretation that's a a lot easier to come up with in retrospect than during play.

I'm trying to put myself in the position of a player who isn't reading along with the module during the game.  I've been teleported into an empty room.  There are no exits, but it's not immediately apparent that I did something wrong to get here. (after all, the poor bastards who jumped into the GGD are dead, I'm ahead of them)  I don't have any idea where I am in relation to Area 5.  Above? Below? North? West?  Am I on the same level of the dungeon?  

So how do I know that up toward the ceiling is going to be better than down toward the floor?  After all, there's already been one collapsing ceiling trap.  For all I know "up" will cause the ceiling to crash down on me while "down" will open a passage in the floor.  

Obviously, spells like _Augury_ might help me.  Good dungeoneering like that exhibited by the players in the thread Gentlegamer linked to will save me if I screw up.  But is there any way to figure out that up is the right way to go without resorting to (a) dumb luck or (b) magic?


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Bullgrit

> Up for ceiling, down for floor? Pretty simple logic there.



Yes, quite simple logic -- when you know the answer.

The last time in this Tomb that someone messed with a lever, it opened a pit trap under them.

Before that, just opening a door released a ton of rocks on the party's heads

And then when they followed the clue message to go through the arch, you ended up in this Forsaken Prison. 

As any adventurer would have learned by the 7th room of the Tomb: it's dangerous to mess around with *anything* in this dungeon. But, of course, it's simple logic to just push the three levers up to open the escape hatch above. An escape hatch that you'd have no way of knowing is there -- because magical detection doesn't work in this room. I would think the "simple logic" when presented with three levers in this particular dungeon would be, "don't touch anything".



> Obviously, spells like Augury might help me.



If the trapped PC is a cleric, and not a thief, or a fighter, or a monk, or a magic-user, or a paladin, or a ranger, or an illusionist, or an assassin. And even if the trapped soul is a cleric, with augury prepared, there are three rods with at least four directions each; augury only answers one question. Plus, even a 14th level cleric has a 16% of not getting an answer.

And might a DM interpret an augury spell as "a magical means of detection" that doesn't work in this room? Isn't this whole dungeon supposed to test the *Player's* skill? Letting the Player rely on his character's powers and level kind of cheats the concept, doesn't it?

Bullgrit


----------



## Gentlegamer

Here's how the caller of the group from Origins I reacted to the Forsaken Prison:
_
We found ourselves inside a 10' square, 30' high room, without doors and possessed of 3 levers. At this point I announced that we were all driving spikes into the walls and standing on them. _

edit:
That's an example of good dungeoneering referenced by stoat above. 

There's a very good reason that skilled, successful players carry spikes, marbles, 10 foot poles, and the like.


----------



## Bullgrit

> We found ourselves inside a 10' square, 30' high room



The room is only 10' high by the text. I don't mention this to be crazy nitpicky, but to highlight an example of how a DM's description can have potentially radical affect on PC success/failure with this module. There's at least a couple issues I see with describing the room as 30' tall rather than 10' tall.

1- My first thought would be that the extra height is to increase the damage of something falling on me. Surely a legitimate concern in this Tomb. So that would distract my caution upwards rather than downwards.

2- The logistics of getting a party up to a hatch 30' above is more complicated than just going up 10'. Ten feet up, you can get out simply by getting on a comrade's shoulders, going up, and then reaching back down to pull them up. Thirty feet up would require ropes and a way to anchor it above. Nothing insurmountable, of course, but definitely more work than 10'.

Both of these change the scenario by a non-trivial amount. Especially in a tournament situation.

Also, isn't it interesting how a party clever enough to use spikes to stand on to avoid a potential fall weren't clever enough to avoid getting sent to the Forsaken Prison in the first place?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Both of these change the scenario by a non-trivial amount. Especially in a tournament situation.




I think the little changes between the con report and the module as published are pretty interesting.  For example, it's notable to me that in the con report, the mist in Area 5 is  described as blue, while no color is specified in the published module.  There's a lot of color imagery in the Tomb, and several fairly dangerous encounters later on are marked with blue objects.  "Shun green" sure, but is blue good, bad or both?  Also, IIRC the mist in the arch at Area 10 is orange.  If it was a different color than the arch in Area 5, that would/could be a clue to leave it alone.



> Also, isn't it interesting how a party clever enough to use spikes to stand on to avoid a potential fall weren't clever enough to avoid getting sent to the Forsaken Prison in the first place?




Acererak doesn't give much in the way of clues to describe the proper way of making it through Area 5.  In fact, I'd say there are really no clues at all.


----------



## Bullgrit

Don't stop now, we're only 7 areas in.

Bullgrit


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> Also, isn't it interesting how a party clever enough to use spikes to stand on to avoid a potential fall weren't clever enough to avoid getting sent to the Forsaken Prison in the first place?
> 
> Bullgrit




Players are brilliant when you least expect it...and dense beyond belief when the answer is obvious!


----------



## Beginning of the End

Stoat said:


> IMO:  The Forsaken Prison is obviously a punishment room.  You get here by failing to solve Area 5.  It's a pretty boring place.  No clues, no brightly colored mosaics, no picture -- just them 3 levers.  If there's a way to solve the lever "puzzle" other than trial and error, I'd like to hear it.  As far as I can tell, there are no clues or hints or anything to guide the players.




Again, there's no need to "solve" this by figuring out which way to flip the levers. All you need to "solve" this chamber is to recognize potential risks and then mitigate against them:

- Augury
- Flight
- Pitons in the walls (that's clever)
- Holding onto the levers as you pull them
- Standing on a _tenser's floating disc_

All kinds of stuff.


----------



## Bullgrit

> - Augury
> - Flight
> - Pitons in the walls (that's clever)
> - Holding onto the levers as you pull them
> - Standing on a tenser's floating disc



Again, the answers are based on already knowing what the danger is.

Augury has been addressed -- one question is not much use when there are 12? possible orientations.

The other solutions are all based on the knowledge (expectation) that the danger is a pit trap. What if the ceiling comes down on you? What if the levers zap you with electricity? What if poison darts shoot you when you move a lever? What if the room fills with water? Etc.

What if the solution to this room is to leave the levers alone, completely?

Heck, what if the pit below is a safe chute that slides the PCs down to the next step of the Tomb? Some would laugh at their paranoia when they work so hard to not fall down the pit.

Yes, the traps and tricks are avoidable *if you already know what they are*. But how can PCs in the adventure solve/avoid the traps if they haven't read the text themselves? That's the question. What clues are there for the PCs to have something to think on besides just using lucky guesses or blind faith?

As a module proposed as a thinking man's adventure, there must be some clues or hints or information to think on. What are they?

Bullgrit


----------



## Maggan

Bullgrit said:


> Again, the answers are based on already knowing what the danger is.




I think the pitons in the wall is a good precaution whenever you're in a room ike this, especially with the levers. It is the Tomb of Horrors so I would expect the levers to be trapped, after all.

So it is possible to avoid them even if you don't know they are there, but what I'm thinking is that "being a good D&D player" is getting reduced to "Augary, a 10 foot pole and pitons in the wall. Oh, and spike the doors."

There seems to be a handful of things that can be applied at all times to avoid a lot of dangers.

/M


----------



## Stoat

*Area 8. Gargoyle Lair*

"Go back to the tormentor" tear through the plaster on the wall, find a concealed door and go through it, then go through another (untrapped) door and you'll reach Area 8.  Easy!

When you enter Area 8, you meet this guy:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic8.jpg

He's newly awakened from _Temporal Stasis_, and he's looking forward to a frank and open philosophical discussion about the merits of old-school sandbox play that challenges the player versus new-school story-based play that challenges the PC.  Bloody combat inevitably follows.

The Gargoyle has 12 HD/64 hp.  He attacks six times a round, and does pretty buff damage.  The module doesn't list his AC.  I guess you should use the AC of the regular old 4+4 HD gargoyle from the Monster Manual?  If so, Mr. Gargoyle is probably going down in a hurry.  How has this fight played out for folks who have actually run the module?

He's wearing a bedazzled dog collar.  Go ahead and take the gems, 'cause you'll want them in Area 11.  Hidden in a "secret compartment" in his collar is a parchment.  It reads:

"Look low and high for gold, to hear a tale untold.  The archway at the end, and on your way you'll wend.  -A"

IMO.  Not much to say about Mr. Gargoyle.  Gang up on him and rest when he's dead.

But what in the hell does that riddle mean?  Low and High?  Gold?  What is the 'tale untold?' Is it pointing you back to the arch at Area 5?  I'm flummoxed.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Bullgrit

> Area 8. Gargoyle Lair



Yes, this is an interesting thing. There's an obvious (to the DM, reading) connection between this monster and the gargoyle statue in area 11 (to come). The blue quartz gems from this creature's collar will fit the palms of the gargoyle statue, to potentially, eventually produce a gem of seeing. If the PCs come to this room before getting to 11, they can possibly deduce a connection, and possibly think of using the gems. This serves as "a thinking person's" clue. Good.

But, if the PCs [correctly?] use the arch at area 5, they will appear in area 11, bypassing this area 8, and so will be standing before the gargoyle statue without the area 8 clue (or gems). Hmm. Kind of hard to call this. Arguably, if they do the right thing in area 5, they have no clue for area 11. If they take the hard way (deconstructing their way) through area 4, they will pass through area 8 and get a clue for area 11. So is digging through area 4 the right/better answer than figuring out the Simon Says archway at area 5?

And then the cryptic clue, "Look low and high for gold, to hear a tale untold. The archway at the end, and on your way you'll wend." I agree with Stoat -- I don't know what this refers to, either. I see there are some things it might refer to -- the gold orb in the area 10 hallway, and there are at least 3 archways after this clue -- but the riddle makes no sense in relation to them.

Either this is a clue that even the DM reading the module (probably?) might not understand, or it's a false clue not meant to be followed. If it is a real clue, it is too unclear. If it is false, then this is an example of punishing, (or at least counter-rewarding), attentive and thorough PCs.

And finally, looking at the stats for the gargoyle, here: this is another example of Gygaxian stream-of-consciousness writing style.



			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> This monster is a huge (H.P.: 64; 19 strength) monstrosity that attacks 6 times/round as a 12 hit dice creature inflicting damage as follows: 2-8 x 4/3-12/1-6, and if any 2 of the clawing attacks (2-8 x 4) hit, the creature will do an additional 7 hit points of rending damage to the opponent so struck.



I know this is a very early-era module, but other modules of its day used better, more concise stat blocks.



			
				Simple Edit said:
			
		

> This monster is a huge monstrosity (AC: 5, HD: 12, HP: 64, Attacks: claws x4/bite/horn, Damage: 2-8 x4/3-12/1-6, if two claws hit add 7 more damage).




Bullgrit


----------



## Celebrim

Stoat said:


> But what in the hell does that riddle mean?  Low and High?  Gold?  What is the 'tale untold?' Is it pointing you back to the arch at Area 5?  I'm flummoxed.




Yes, it is pointing back to area 5.  You gain access to area 8, via area 3A where a plaster fresco shows a painting of a torture chamber containing a horrible monster (the huge gargoyle, in fact) waiting to be released.

Both area 8 and area 9 are something of punishment zones in my opinion - just as promised by their entrance motif.  They aren't particularly deadly to a party of this level, but the party would be better off going around them.  

The riddle in the collar probably makes no sense to a party that has gone into area 8 without fully exploring the entrance corridor, but if a party turns back at this point (whether they understand the riddle or not) and does as directed they should:

a) By paying careful attention ('looking...low') uncover the all important riddle ('a tale untold') in the entrance corridor, which will again mention an arch (or advise them that they can in fact gain access by going back to the gargoyle 'the tormentor' where they've just been, if they can't figure out the arch's simple puzzle)
b) Gain a short cut to area 10 via the arch in area 5 - thus avoiding the complex of secret doors in area 9 and its unavoidable damage.


----------



## Bullgrit

Celebrim said:
			
		

> By paying careful attention ('looking...low') uncover the all important riddle ('a tale untold') in the entrance corridor



So you are saying that "Look low and high for gold, to hear a tale untold," references looking low at the red path and reading the clue?

"Low and high" = low?
"gold" = red?
"hear" = see/read?



> Both area 8 and area 9 are something of punishment zones in my opinion



So following the clue in the path riddle (to go through the tormentor, to areas 8 and 9) leads to a punishment?

Bullgrit


----------



## Celebrim

Bullgrit said:


> So you are saying that "Look low and high for gold, to hear a tale untold," references looking low at the red path and reading the clue?




Yes.  Looking 'high and low' means in English "look everywhere".  "For gold" means generally, "something valueable" but whether it is interpreted by the clue reciever literally or not doesn't matter much provided he does look 'high and low'.  



> So following the clue in the path riddle (to go through the tormentor, to areas 8 and 9) leads to a punishment?




You just won't let go of these dry bones will you?  

No, according to the clue it leads to the "second great hall".  Whether you get there through the tormentor or the arch determines whether you are tormented and punished.  

The arch puzzle is straight foward and the majority of groups solve it just fine.  We did.  Personally, after I read the module and the description of area 9 (an area I'd never been as a PC), I felt that there was no way that a group would get through this area, and I've seen similar anxious observations from other DM's, but universally in play they've reported that players 'got' this area far more often than they'd expect and I've seen far more accounts of players getting through this way than I'd have ever credited if I was just dryly offering uninformed opions of the bare text.  Your various hypotheticals about how this might play out are reasonable in that certainly some players might be so confused but not the most likely, and the experience of the vast majority of players on this thread (as evidence by the earlier overwhelming agreement I recieved) bears that out.  

Sure, some parties will probably be stumped by any of the problems you raise, and most parties will probably be stumped by at least one conunudrum you raise.  If everything were perfectly obvious, the dungeon would present no danger at all.  But so what?  If you want perfect clues, bump up the level of your party a bit and cast, "Find the Path".  Dungeon all but solved.


----------



## Stoat

Giving it some more thought, the Gargoyle's riddle from Area 8 looks pretty problematic to me.

On the one hand, the reference to "Gold" seems to point at the hidden doorway between Area 10 and Area 11 -- an illusory golden sphere held up high by a painting on the wall.  It seems significant to me that the module goes in to so much detail about which of those spheres in Area 10 are "high" and which ones are "low".  I'm also working under the theory that "night's good color" and "shades of red" refer to the other exits from Area 10.  There's some logic in Acererak giving clues to all of them.  Of course, if the Gargoyle's riddle is talking about Area 10, then it includes a red herring.  Go on and wend your way through that Arch!  Do it!  I dares you!  It doesn't bother me that there might be a red herring, but the presence of one cuts against the argument that Acererak "plays fair with the PC's."  This interpretation also doesn't really account for the "tale untold."  Unless you get real metaphoric and think of the gem of seeing from Area 11 as revealing untold tales?

On the other hand, Acererak has already told the PC's to through the Arch at Area 5.  Why repeat that?  Also, there's no need to look "high and low" for the riddle in Area 3.  You only need to look low.  And there's no gold in Area 3, at least not literally.  Calling the riddle a "tale untold" sort of presupposes that the players haven't found it yet, and I'm not sure that's a safe assumption at this point.  After all, Area 8 isn't exactly easy to find without the riddle telling you to go back to the tormentor.  There's also the fact that once the PC's have gotten this far, they're halfway to Area 10 anyway.  Sure Area 9 is going to be a baffling pain in the ass to negotiate (probably), but it's not like they're heading toward a death trap.  Do they need to be told to go back?  Are they not just as likely to go forward and then wend their way through the Arch in Area 10?


----------



## Stoat

Also, I've convinced my regular group to try a play-by-post run at the Tomb.  I'm interested to see how they fare!


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

I really wish we had a Gygax around to answer questions and explain the riddles.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Bullgrit

The next area is 9... <nudge>

Bullgrit


----------



## Beginning of the End

Bullgrit said:


> Again, the answers are based on already knowing what the danger is.




Despite your claims to the contrary, danger can be mitigated in myriad ways without surety. Sometimes you'll take a precaution and it won't be necessary. Sometimes it will.

Basically, you're saying that wearing a seat belt requires you to some know that you're going to be in an accident. That's not the way seat belts work.

The proof here is in the pudding: You're taking examples of successful mitigation _from actual play_ and claiming it can't happen.

If the same team also carefully checked out the levers to see if they were coated in contact poison or even wiped them down just to be sure, that would also be danger mitigation. Not meaningful in this case, but a reasonable precaution.



Maggan said:


> So it is possible to avoid them even if you don't  know they are there, but what I'm thinking is that "being a good D&D  player" is getting reduced to "Augary, a 10 foot pole and pitons in the  wall. Oh, and spike the doors."




IME, successful players tend to triage the likely routes of danger from the current scenario and figure out the way they want to mitigate it using the resources they have on hand. They don't drive pitons into the wall before walking through a misty arch because the odds of walking through a misty arch triggering a pity trap are pretty low. But in a room with no visible exits and levers serving an unclear purpose? Yeah. Time to mitigate against unexpected exits suddenly appearing in inconvenient locations.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 9. Complex of Secret Doors*

This is a complex of small, square rooms connected to each other by secret doors.  The module provides no description of the rooms, and it does not mention any furniture or  decoration in the complex.  Every round that the PC's spend here, a number of bolts will be fired into the area "from hidden devices in the walls and ceilings."  One PC must save vs. magic or take 1d6 points of damage.

Each of the 7 secret doors opens a different way.  One pulls down.  One pivots cenrally.  On slides up.  Etc. Etc.  The players have to negotiate all of the doors to get to Area 10.

IMO: Meh.  This area reminds me of the Bard's Tale (and I mean the original from 1985).  A bunch of tiny, empty rooms full of random damage.  There are no hints or clues to figure out.  The random damage is trivial for PC's at this level.  Plus, the module doesn't provide any flavor text or description to flesh out the secret doors.  

I've got every sympathy for the folks who just busted through the walls.


----------



## Bullgrit

Beginning of the End said:
			
		

> Despite your claims to the contrary, danger can be mitigated in myriad ways without surety.



When have I made a claim contrary to this?



> You're taking examples of successful mitigation from actual play and claiming it can't happen.



Not at all. The only successful mitigation presented from actual play – the pitons – I said was clever. And I haven’t said any mitigation can’t happen.

You’re quoting one line from me, and then arguing against something else, that I’ve never said or implied. Are you sure you’re connecting your argument to the right person?

My only argument against what some folks are putting forward as easy trap avoidance/solutions is that it’s easy to say, “oh, just do this” when you know that “this” is the solution for the particular situation. I’m asking for how would a party know to make such specific safety precautions at that time? It’s been said that Acererak gives fair clues for surviving the Tomb. I’m asking what are the clues? I’m not saying fair clues do not exist, but I’m not taking someone’s word for it – I’m expecting to be shown, not just told to believe.



> Sometimes you'll take a precaution and it won't be necessary. Sometimes it will.
> …
> If the same team also carefully checked out the levers to see if they were coated in contact poison or even wiped them down just to be sure, that would also be danger mitigation. Not meaningful in this case, but a reasonable precaution.



Yes. But is this how to best explore the Tomb? To approach each and every thing with a long list of mitigating actions? From what some people are saying, it would seem that going through the Tomb is just a matter of paying attention to clues and thinking. Please explain these clues. But from what I’m reading, it would seem that going through the Tomb is a matter of approaching everything like a CSI team or bomb squad.

The CSI/bomb squad approach is a legitimate method and game play style, and some people really enjoy that.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> The random damage is trivial for PC's at this level.



Something to keep in mind, maybe, is that AD&D clerics could not swap out spells memorized for cure spells. So if the cleric went into the Tomb with a bunch of divination type stuff, or poison-proof stuff, or anything other than cure X wounds, this damage could add up over time with no healing. Though it would be a very foolish group to let damage add up so much that someone might die before backing up to a safe spot and resting a couple days.



> There are no hints or clues to figure out.



Yeah, it kind of looks like it's just a race for the Players to explain multiple methods of opening the doors in less than one minute (round). It was claimed in another thread, that the Tomb isn't about attrition, but this area does seem to be all about only attrition of hit points.







			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> There is absolutely no way to prevent the bolts from being triggered and from hitting, and armor and spells will NOT have any effect either.




Something just came to me, after writing all the above: does the party have to search and find the secret doors before they can try to open them? If they have to search, doesn't it take a turn (10 minutes) to search each wall? So that's at least 10d6 damage minimum for each secret door. And with a 1 in 6 chance of any one PC finding it, that damage can get pretty serious.

Now, the targeted character gets a save vs. Spells against each bolt, so that will cut down on the damage somewhat, but still. There is potentially a lot of damage to be taken in this area.

If the doors can be opened by just trying to push/pull/lift/etc. each wall without knowing there is a secret door, it just goes back to a race to describe vs. the 1 minute timer. And how many Players are going to blindly continue trying to push/pull/lift/etc. on a wall when they keep getting hit by magic bolts? Is this an example of the Players need to just have faith and continue doing something that hurts them until something good happens?

I wonder how many Players would figure the problem to be solved in this area is to mitigate the damage? I could imagine a lot of time trying to figure out and protect themselves from the bolts, only for that time to be wasted. The problem to be solved here isn't the trap, it's the door opening methods. They just kind of have to suck up the damage and move as fast as they can.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Yeah, it kind of looks like it's just a race for the Players to explain multiple methods of opening the doors in less than one minute (round). It was claimed in another thread, that the Tomb isn't about attrition, but this area does seem to be all about only attrition of hit points.




Thing is, there are no wandering monsters in the Tomb, so the PC's can stop and rest at any time.  As far as I can tell, there is nothing keeping them from opening one secret door, retreating back outside, resting as long as they want, and then returning to find/open the next secret door.



> Something just came to me, after writing all the above: does the party have to search and find the secret doors before they can try to open them? If they have to search, doesn't it take a turn (10 minutes) to search each wall? So that's at least 10d6 damage minimum for each secret door. And with a 1 in 6 chance of any one PC finding it, that damage can get pretty serious.




I assume the players have to find the doors before they can try to open them.  The module doesn't say, but that's how I've always run secret doors.  I don't have any idea how long it takes to search for one in 1E.  If it's as long as a turn then, yeah, that damage will add up.  

It'll also be a pain in the ass for the DM, who has to randomly determine which PC each of the 10 bolts hits and then ask for and adjudicate 10 saves versus spell.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> Thing is, there are no wandering monsters in the Tomb, so the PC's can stop and rest at any time. As far as I can tell, there is nothing keeping them from opening one secret door, retreating back outside, resting as long as they want, and then returning to find/open the next secret door.



Yeah, this kind of brings up the question of what exactly is the point of the damage, then?

Would the Players know there are no wandering monsters? Sure, it doesn't make sense to have monsters wandering about this kind of place, but there are other dungeons with wandering monsters in an environment where it wouldn't make sense things would be wandering about. The party is only a few areas into the Tomb, but depending on how long it has taken them to move through each previous area, maybe they've deduced that they aren't in a hurry?

How did/would a tournament situation handle taking a break and resting for a couple days? Maybe this area only works properly in a tournament-like time-limited game?

Bullgrit


----------



## Loincloth of Armour

Bullgrit said:


> Would the Players know there are no wandering monsters?




Speaking solely from my experience, we didn't know there were no wandering monsters. As such, we didn't have a whole alotment of divination spells, instead we were tricked out with the standard cure x/fireball type stuff, with a few utility/divination types.

After a few slogs, we traded out a number of our firepower-spells for more "is this a good idea, yes/no?" types, but we didn't completely go the divination path for a couple of reasons:

1) As stated, the cleric needed to memorize cure x type spells. No matter how good Agury might be, cure x was the cleric's _job_.

2) We didn't know what was behind the next door. It could be another trap, or it could be a monster. If a monster, not having lightning bolt memorized could hurt us (having it memorized could still hurt us if the bolt reflected unwisely!). For us it seemed jjuusstt enough monsters to reward us for keeping a pretty combat heavy spell list. (We were also looking forward to a good fight to bleed off some of the tension from dealing with the traps.)

Or: I could think/talk my way out of a trap situation, or perhaps leave it alone and come back later. But if you need that Fireball, you _needed_ that Fireball, right then. For us, that was a pretty strong incentive to keep a strong combat roster up.


----------



## Raven Crowking

Removed


----------



## Gentlegamer

Stoat said:


> *Area 9. Complex of Secret Doors*
> 
> This is a complex of small, square rooms connected to each other by secret doors.  The module provides no description of the rooms, and it does not mention any furniture or  decoration in the complex.  Every round that the PC's spend here, a number of bolts will be fired into the area "from hidden devices in the walls and ceilings."  One PC must save vs. magic or take 1d6 points of damage.
> 
> Each of the 7 secret doors opens a different way.  One pulls down.  One pivots cenrally.  On slides up.  Etc. Etc.  The players have to negotiate all of the doors to get to Area 10.
> 
> IMO: Meh.  This area reminds me of the Bard's Tale (and I mean the original from 1985).  A bunch of tiny, empty rooms full of random damage.  There are no hints or clues to figure out.  The random damage is trivial for PC's at this level.  Plus, the module doesn't provide any flavor text or description to flesh out the secret doors.
> 
> I've got every sympathy for the folks who just busted through the walls.



Hehe

_Now through a maze of 10' square rooms with walls that pivoted vertically, horizontally, slid up,down,and sideways. Each direction had to be individually specified. The party agreed and our 18 (80%) fighter started making holes in the wall instead. _

-tournament report from Origins I


----------



## Stoat

Gentlegamer said:


> Hehe
> 
> _Now through a maze of 10' square rooms with walls that pivoted vertically, horizontally, slid up,down,and sideways. Each direction had to be individually specified. The party agreed and our 18 (80%) fighter started making holes in the wall instead. _
> 
> -tournament report from Origins I




 Exactly what I was thing of.  I'd take a sledgehammer to those walls after about 5 minutes.

Also:  The PC's in my PBP game are busy wandering around on top of Acererak's burial mound.  They think there's a secret entrance up there, hidden in black stones of the skull face.


----------



## amerigoV

Stoat said:


> Exactly what I was thing of.  I'd take a sledgehammer to those walls after about 5 minutes.
> 
> Also:  The PC's in my PBP game are busy wandering around on top of Acererak's burial mound.  They think there's a secret entrance up there, hidden in black stones of the skull face.




Hmm, sounds like a good place to put a chute to the back side of the Devil's Mouth. "Wheeeeeee! Pffft!"


----------



## jonesy

amerigoV said:


> Hmm, sounds like a good place to put a chute to the back side of the Devil's Mouth. "Wheeeeeee! Pffft!"



Grimtooth would approve. Not really sure if Acererak would.


----------



## Bullgrit

We're less than 10 areas into the Tomb. I just went back and read this thread from the beginning, and I wonder if Stoat's original post/question needs to be repeated:


Stoat said:


> I've been intrigued with S1 _Tomb of Horrors_ for a long time, and this thread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/306672-tomb-horrors-example-many-one-kind.html has me thinking about it again.
> 
> In particular, this line of posts caught my attention:
> 
> 
> 
> Raven Crowking said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The module gives you clues in the form of riddles, and those riddles are, essentially, a "walk through" for the entire module (if you can parse them out carefully). On the other hand, if you fail to notice the first riddle, or if you ignore the clues provided, well, the module can kill you pretty quickly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the Jester said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recall one post about a newbie gamer who had never played an rpg before with a first level pc making it to the end, grabbing some loot and fleeing for his life.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WizarDru said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike some modules, with traps that have no possible way of being decoded short of painful experience (iirc, Tsocjanth has several of these...there is no clue that one color is good and another bad, that one face on a pedestal is a boon and the other a curse, etc.), ToH presents players with a chance to figure things out.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I've heard this about the ToH before, (particularly the story about the 1st level thief who makes it through) but I've always been a little skeptical.  Acererak's clues are pretty opaque, and the consequences for screwing up are permanent.  I've tried to unravel the module before, but I couldn't do it by myself.  So here we are.
> 
> I'm not interested in whether or not the module is "well-designed" "good" or even "fun."  Some people love it, some people hate it, and that's fine.  I don't want to talk about whether or not folks enjoy whatever playstyle is necessary to survive the ToH.  I'm not interested in a long debate about challenging the player vs. challenging the character.  I definitely don't want to start a discussion about the merits of old-school play in general.  If you want to talk about that stuff, please do so in another thread.
> 
> I'm interested in this: What does it take to survive the ToH?  Does the module provide enough clues to allow the players to navigate the Tomb safely?  How much guesswork,  dumb luck or divination magic is necessary to get through the Tomb?  How much can be accomplished with caution and reason alone?
> 
> My plan is to go through the module room-by-room.  I'll post a description of the room and any hints/clues it contains for the PC's.  Then I'll give my thoughts about how a group of players might interpret those clues and apply them to Tomb.
> 
> There's no way to do this without spoiling the module.  I don't plan on using spoiler tags, and I'd rather y'all not use them either.  So consider yourself warned.
Click to expand...



I'd like to throw in some quotes that struck me, from that mentioned other thread:


> Tomb of Horrors is fair. Acererak plays fair. He's so uncannily and unusually fair given his apparant goal (killing adventurers)...
> ...
> Acererak follows a pattern and sticks to it, so that with care you really don't have to guess after you successfully enter the tomb.
> ...
> The module has a totally unfair reputation for unfairness, not because it is unfair but because it is utterly unmerciful and unforgiving.
> ...
> But the tomb is very fair because the tomb is never really arbitrary. Arbitrary is usually a synonym for random, and the tomb is rarely random.
> ...
> If the tomb warns you against doing something, then its a fair warning and the consequences of ignoring it will be bad. If the tomb provides you a clue, it's a fair clue that isn't meant to mislead you.
> ...
> Acererak doesn't build a maze. He doesn't make you guess which way to go. It's not a sprawling labrinth filled with a lot of arbitrary choices between left and right with no way of knowing which leads to certain doom and which to a reward. You aren't arbitrarily picking your way through it, and if you paid attention he'll give you very specific directions through the tomb. False leads look like false leads once you have the real one to compare them too, so just look around before you decide to follow the first thing you find and you'll be alright.
> ...
> Acerak doesn't rely on attrition. He's not trying to wear you down. He's not going to force everyone to make a saving throw just to go foward and turn the whole affair into a test of whether you can roll high on 4 or 5 unavoidable rolls in a row. The dungeon doesn't amount to whether you can win initiative enough times, or whether you roll high on your damage dice, or whether the monster makes his saving throw, or whether you can avoid a streak of 1's. If you play by his rules, you'll probably never have to make a saving throw, and if you screw up and get reckless you'll probably never have a chance to. There is almost no combat; there is almost no luck, good or bad
> ...
> ToH is fair with Acererak being predictable and clues for the right decision being available.



So, in the spirit of Stoat starting this thread: From what we're seeing so far, (again, we're not 10 areas in, yet), are the above quotes about ToH accurate?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

My PC's just set fire to the hill over the Tomb.  The blasted it with _Fireballs_ until the briars and thorns burst into flames.

It's burning out of control now.

Which is why I play D&D.


----------



## amerigoV

Stoat said:


> My PC's just set fire to the hill over the Tomb.  The blasted it with _Fireballs_ until the briars and thorns burst into flames.
> 
> It's burning out of control now.
> 
> Which is why I play D&D.




Stuff like that always bring me back to this strip from DM of the Rings
DM of the Rings XV:Riddle me This - Twenty Sided

Its funny because it is true.


----------



## Flatus Maximus

Stoat said:


> My PC's just set fire to the hill over the Tomb.  The blasted it with _Fireballs_ until the briars and thorns burst into flames.
> 
> It's burning out of control now.
> 
> Which is why I play D&D.




For those about to rock.

FIRE.

We salute you.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> My PC's just set fire to the hill over the Tomb. The blasted it with Fireballs until the briars and thorns burst into flames.



Points for thoroughness. But they're not even in the Tomb, yet.

Bullgrit


----------



## steeldragons

As I recall, a group I went into the ToH with basically got out butts kicked by the entrances and so, after more resting, just went 20 feet or so to one side of the entrances and started blasting our way in/through with Passwall spells.
.

How well things went inside...I don't really recall, it was some time ago. But Area 9 sounds like the kind of place we would have been doing that again.

--SD


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Points for thoroughness. But they're not even in the Tomb, yet.




No, they're not.  The cleric is probably going to start casting divination spells, and that _should_ put them on the right track.  Although the specific spell and the wording of any questions asked may throw off the result.  The ranger and m-u/thief are looking around the bare spot on the hill where the entrances are hidden, but they aren't poking it with spears and poles.  This is a destructive group, and I'm curious about what they'll do when they realize that digging into the hill is an option.

Also, I haven't forgotten about the real point of this thread.  I've had godawful computer problems for the last few weeks, and it's made posting the WIR a pain in the ass.  That's behind me, and I hope to get to Area 10 this weekend.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 10. Great Hall of Spheres*

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic10.jpg

Like Area 3, this is a hallway 20 feet long by 130 feet long decorated with inlaid tiles on the floor and pictures of animals, strange signs and glyphs on the walls.  The module is quick to tell the DM that the signs and glyphs mean "absolutely nothing."  The highlight of the place are a number of paintings on the walls that depict humanoid creatures carrying spheres of many colors.

From north to south, with the west wall represented in the first column and the east wall represented in the second, the figures and spheres appear as follows:

GOLD held high above head..................PALE BLUE at shoulder
ORANGE held waist high.......................SILVER at feet
PURPLE at feet....................................GREEN he!d high above head
BRONZE held waist high.......................YELLOW at shoulder
GRAY at shoulder................................PINK held high above head 
BRIGHT BLUE at feet...........................BLACK at feet
WHITE held high above head................PALE VIOLET at shoulder
TURQUOISE at shoulder.......................RED held waist high""
SCARLET held waist high......................BUFF at feet
PALE GREEN at feet.............................INDIGO held high above head

Some of the "spheres" are illusions that cover hidden passages in the walls.  The GOLD sphere leads to Area 11.  The RED sphere leads to Area 13.  The BLACK sphere leads to Area 14.  Also, the SILVER sphere covers a secret one-way door leading from Area 9.  Some of the spheres are false doors.

At the end of the hall is another misty archway similar to the one at Area 5.  

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic5.jpg

The stones on this arch glow Russet, Olive and Citron (which reminds me of the kitchen in my parent's house, circa 1977).  No matter what the PC's do, the arch remains clouded with mist.  Living matter that passes through the arch is teleported back to Area 3.  Non-living matter (right down to your underpants) is teleported to Acererak's Crypt, Area 33.  So anybody who walks through this archway winds up back at the beginning of the dungeon naked and defenseless.  

[Nelson Munz]Ha, Ha![/Nelson Munz]

IMO:  There's a lot of description in this room, but not much action.  Basically it's a bunch of secret passages protected by illusions and a non-lethal screw you trap.  PC's will either enter from Area 11 (which is reached by solving Area 5) or from Area 9.  Those coming from Area 11 have to pass through one of the illusory spheres to get here, so they ought to be clued to check the other spheres carefully.  Those coming from Area 9 might have the riddle that says, "Archway at the end, and on your way you'll wend."  I'm going to bet that a substantial percentage of those folks wind up adding their boxer shorts to Acererak's collection in Area 33.

The way out is behind the black sphere, and this is probably what "Night's good color" from Area 3 refers to.  The red sphere is almost certainly what "Shades of red stand for blood" refers to, because that passage eventually leads the players to a "loop of magical metal."  These clues are pretty vague, but none of the spheres are trapped or dangerous, so even players who don't get the clues won't suffer if they poke around here.

The only "clue" to the danger represented by the arch is that the mist never goes away.  I'm betting that your chances on avoiding this trap depend a lot on how you got here.  If you solved Area 5, that _might_ seem weird enough to make you leery here.  If you walked through a misty Area 5 and wound up in Area 7, you might realize that walking through misty arches is a dumb idea.  If you smashed your way through Areas 8 and 9 and found the Gargoyle's riddle, you'll probably be tempted to wend your way through the arch.  If you don't have the Gargoyle's riddle?  I dunno.

Finally, it bugs me that the module keeps talking about "spheres."  They're two-dimensional paintings.  They aren't spheres, they're circles.


----------



## Rolflyn

Stoat said:


> Finally, it bugs me that the module keeps talking about "spheres."  They're two-dimensional paintings.  They aren't spheres, they're circles.




That bothers me too, especially because the picture shows them as flat without a single indication of depth.  If they were drawn as shaded 2D representations of spheres, I wouldn't have minded so much.


----------



## MarkB

Rolflyn said:


> That bothers me too, especially because the picture shows them as flat without a single indication of depth.  If they were drawn as shaded 2D representations of spheres, I wouldn't have minded so much.




It is rather disconcerting. Having not played this module, the impression I got from the various mentions of this room up-thread had me visualising metal globes of various shapes and colours, suspended from the ceiling at varying heights like a collection of disco balls.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

MarkB said:


> It is rather disconcerting. Having not played this module, the impression I got from the various mentions of this room up-thread had me visualising metal globes of various shapes and colours, suspended from the ceiling at varying heights like a collection of disco balls.




I'm glad I wasn't the only one!


----------



## Bullgrit

> Area 10. Great Hall of Spheres



This area is an example of a "puzzle" that I've never really cared for. This whole thing is just a big time sink with no real risk and the only real reward is being able to move forward to the next area of the Tomb. 

I put "puzzle" in quotation marks because although there's a lot to see and look at and consider in this hall, there's not much to figure out through puzzle solving. There doesn't seem to be anything like a logical solution to be deduced.

Figuring out what circle ("sphere") to go through is just a matter of poking around and then randomly picking a tunnel to explore. The descriptions of colors and positionings suggests there's maybe some kind of pattern to figure out, but I don't see a pattern. (And the module text doesn't tell the DM if there's any kind of pattern.)

Even using the long poem-clue from the path in the previous great hall is so vague that it might or might not actually give a hint for this place. For instance, if "night's good color" is a reference to the black circle, is the "shun green" phrase in the same line referencing the green circle here? The green circle is nothing special.



			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> If shades of red stand for blood the wise
> will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of
> magical metal -- you're well along your march.



"If shades of red stand for blood"? Is that a clue for going forward or a hint of danger? And the second part of that section, "need sacrifice aught but a loop of magical metal"? If that is referencing the method of opening the door in the Chapel of Evil, well, that is behind the black circle, not the red circle.

Having seen different people interpret that poem clue in different ways, and going through the module in detail, I'm starting to think that it isn't really a clue or hint for the Tomb. It's seeming more and more like a red herring. It might have a few actual hints, but they are mixed in with useless gibberish. Was this intentional, or just an unfortunately very poorly worded poem?

So far, this isn't seeming, to me, to be much of a "thinking person's adventure" so much as it's a "testing person's adventure." You just have to test and test and test to determine the right solution to the various obstacles. This particular area could have been cool if a "thinking person" could figure out the correct next way to go by paying attention to all the clues without ever poking around on anything. But as it is, I don't see a way of thinking through this area -- it requires poking and prodding and random choices.

If I'm missing the clues, hints, or patterns, please for the love of adventure explain them to me. I can't shake the feeling that I'm just missing something.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> This area is an example of a "puzzle" that I've never really cared for. This whole thing is just a big time sink with no real risk and the only real reward is being able to move forward to the next area of the Tomb.
> 
> I put "puzzle" in quotation marks because although there's a lot to see and look at and consider in this hall, there's not much to figure out through puzzle solving. There doesn't seem to be anything like a logical solution to be deduced.
> 
> Figuring out what circle ("sphere") to go through is just a matter of poking around and then randomly picking a tunnel to explore. The descriptions of colors and positionings suggests there's maybe some kind of pattern to figure out, but I don't see a pattern. (And the module text doesn't tell the DM if there's any kind of pattern.)




I agree.  The Archway at Area 10a. is the only risky thing here.  And there's there's little to no clue or warning about its nature of.  

As for the hallway itself, there's a lot of the groovy stuff in the picture, and lots of info to dump on the PC's, but there's no risk, the only clue is Acererak's first riddle, and your ability to find the right way forward mostly depends on how your DM handles disbelieving illusions.

(aside, I've never liked the way disbelieving illusions works in D&D)



> "If shades of red stand for blood"? Is that a clue for going forward or a hint of danger? And the second part of that section, "need sacrifice aught but a loop of magical metal"? If that is referencing the method of opening the door in the Chapel of Evil, well, that is behind the black circle, not the red circle.




IIRC, the red circle leads to a chamber where the PC's can find a magic ring.  In other words, you can go there and find a loop of magical metal to sacrifice.  But yeah, the riddle sounds as much like a warning as anything else.



> Having seen different people interpret that poem clue in different ways, and going through the module in detail, I'm starting to think that it isn't really a clue or hint for the Tomb. It's seeming more and more like a red herring. It might have a few actual hints, but they are mixed in with useless gibberish. Was this intentional, or just an unfortunately very poorly worded poem?




I'm saving any grand conclusions for after I've finished with all 33 rooms, but so far IMO, Acererak's riddle is the sort of thing that makes sense if you're the DM with the module in front of you, but isn't much help otherwise.  The biggest challenge the riddle poses is that it refers to different sections of the tomb, but it shifts focus from one section to another without any textual clue.  Consider:

_Go back to the tormentor or through the arch,
and the second great hall you'll discover.
Shun green if you can, but night's good color
is for those of great valor._

The first two lines tell you (roughly) how to get to Area 10 -- the second great hall.  Then the first half of the third line jumps back to warn about the GGD in the first hall.  Then the second half of the third line jumps back to the second hall and talk about the black sphere there. 

So if I'm playing this module, I can't treat the riddle as a series of step-by-step directions.  I'm not sure I'd call it gibberish, but the hints are out of order and aggressively vague.

My guess is that most groups who successfully navigated the Tomb got through more with dumb luck, magic and ten-foot-pole-style dungeoneering than through deciphering riddles and solving puzzles.  I'd be curious to know from folks who have actually run the module.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> your ability to find the right way forward mostly depends on how your DM handles disbelieving illusions.



You know, until you said it this way, it never dawned on me with regard to this area in the Tomb. 

I always just assumed that probing the circles would reveal their illusory properties -- that is, a 10' pole would just obviously poke right through. But if the DM rules that until you disbelieve the illusion, you think your pole taps on solid wall . . . whoa. This is a legitimate ruling, supported by some of the rules on illusions. (Some illusions had real effects, even damage, until disbelieved.)

That can completely change how this area plays out. If the PCs have to make saving throws against the illusions, instead of just poke at them, random chance (saving throw roll) rears its ugly head and muddies up the "puzzle solving."

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

The way I've always played, there are two ways that a PC can get a save to disbelieve an illusion.

First, the player can say, "I disbelieve the [blank]."  The PC spends a minute or so squinting and staring at the [blank] and then rolls their save.

Second, any player that interacts with an illusion gets an automatic save to disbelieve.  "Interaction" includes touching, poking, closely examining, etc. etc.

So, poking the spheres with a stick will get you a saving throw in my game, but it won't automatically find the illusion.  

I haven't crunched the numbers, but given the level of the PC's going through the Tomb, I'd expect most illusions would be discovered if at least two PC's roll saving throws.  My gut tells me that the chances of two mid-to-high level PC's both failing saves vs. spell is pretty low.


----------



## Bullgrit

I remember playing in a published adventure back in the day where we had some interaction with an illusion.

The walls erupted into a fire, forcing us closer to the center of the area. I "knew" the fire had to be an illusion, and wanted to disbelieve. The DM asked how I was doing it, and I stuck my hand into the fire to prove it -- I *knew* it was an illusion. The DM rolled my save behind his screen. My PC couldn't disbelieve away the fire, and took damage. Despite that, I still "knew" the fire had to be an illusion, but I stayed away from it to avoid damage. And no one else in the party bothered with the fire, real or not.

Literally right around the corner, we encountered a basilisk. Most of our party escaped the area in a panic, but a couple were left behind because, well, basilisk.

Years later, when I bought and read that module, I discovered: The fire was real. The basilisk was an illusion.

Bullgrit


----------



## Jhaelen

Bullgrit said:


> Years later, when I bought and read that module, I discovered: The fire was real. The basilisk was an illusion.



Are you sure, though? Maybe the module you believe to have bought is just an illusion 

BTW, I really enjoy this thread and I'm quite pleased that so far it confirms my impressions after reading it and my experiences when actually playing the module (as far as we got, that is...).


----------



## Cutter XXIII

I'm also enjoying this thread immensely. It made me realize I don't own a copy of the module anymore... which I will remedy at Gen Con! 

As far as the usefulness of the clues, or patterns therein, I look at it from Acererak's point of view. Imagine how much life sucks for a demi-lich. Trapped in his gem-encrusted skull, sitting around in the dust for most of eternity, his only amusement comes from watching would-be tomb robbers die in increasingly horrible ways. And those who finally find his resting place, _slurrrrp_ goes the soul.

I think the tomb is set up with near-identical features that have far different effects (e.g., mist-filled arches) because Acererak knew what they did, so had no cause to label them or make them logical to outsiders. That he knew everything's function was enough.

The purpose is deathtrap, with the nuggets of truth in the clues serving as what Acererak would consider "a sporting chance." But then again, he's evil, probably mad, and craves bloodshed and ruin.


----------



## MarkB

Cutter XXIII said:


> The purpose is deathtrap, with the nuggets of truth in the clues serving as what Acererak would consider "a sporting chance." But then again, he's evil, probably mad, and craves bloodshed and ruin.




The impression I get, so far, is that the purpose is a testing ground, with a bit of entertainment thrown in.

Acererak is a fussy eater, and doesn't want just any old souls filling his gems - he wants the people he consumes to be perfect, by his own unique definition of the term. The Tomb is designed so that only those with the perfect combination of luck, stamina, twisty-minded cunning, and almost insanely dogged determination get to reach the inner sanctum, because those are the qualities he craves most in his soul food diet.


----------



## Cutter XXIII

MarkB said:


> The impression I get, so far, is that the purpose is a testing ground, with a bit of entertainment thrown in.
> 
> Acererak is a fussy eater, and doesn't want just any old souls filling his gems - he wants the people he consumes to be perfect, by his own unique definition of the term. The Tomb is designed so that only those with the perfect combination of luck, stamina, twisty-minded cunning, and almost insanely dogged determination get to reach the inner sanctum, because those are the qualities he craves most in his soul food diet.




Exactly.

And now I'm sitting here chuckling over the idea that "ACERERAK CRAVES SOUL FOOD!" 

Anyway, great thread. Looking forward to exploring the next area...


----------



## Stoat

*Area 11. The Three Armed Statue*

Let's backtrack.  If you properly activate the Archway from Area 5, you are teleported to Area 11, from which you can make your way to Area 10.  Yay non-linear design!

Area 11 is a small chamber, 10 feet wide by 20 feet long.  Those who enter immediately see a broken, 8-foot tall statue depicting a four armed gargoyle.  The fourth arm is sitting nearby.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic11.jpg

According to the module, "no amount of fooling around with the broken arm will enable it to be replaced, and the statue will do nothing at all meanwhile."  So ho-hum.  But, if you look close you can see that each of the arms still attached to the statue contains a depression just big enough for a large gem.  Conveniently, the blue quartz stones available after the real gargoyle in Area 8 is defeated fit perfectly in the depressions.

What happens if the party puts three gems into the statue's three remaining hands?   The hand smush the gems to powder and dump the once-valuable dust onto the floor!  [Nelson Munz]Ha, Ha![/Nelson Munz]

The party has to go through the process until 10 gems are crushed.  If you're keeping score at home, that's four activations of the gem-crushing statue.  At that point, a helpful *magic mouth* activates and gives you a clue: "YOUR SACRIFICE WAS NOT IN VAIN.  LOOK TO THE FOURTH TO FIND YOUR GAIN."

An *invisible gem of seeing* appears in the palm of the broken arm on the floor.  You got to find it and wipe away whatever goo it is that makes it invisible before you can use it.  Of course if you handle the broken arm carelessly the gem will "roll away."  The module also says "*Detect invisibility* or any other sort of searching except by careful feeling will be useless," but it isn't clear if this applies under all circumstances, or if the gem has "rolled away."

IMO:  WTF?  Who on Earth sacrifices watches 3 gems get crushed to powder and thinks, "Let's put three more gems in the crushinator?"  And then does it again?  And then again?  'Cause that's step one here.  Okay, the gargoyle in Area 8 has 10 gems, they fit in the gem-crushing statue's hands, and you have to crush 10 gems to get the treasure here.  As far as I can tell, that's the closest thing to a "clue" here.  

And then the gem of seeing is invisible, and likely to "roll away" if you're not careful looking for it.  That's just mean.

Folks who have played/DM'd S1: has anybody ever solved this puzzle?  Please share.  

Three other thoughts:

1.  The module doesn't describe the exit to this room.  Based on the map, it's a narrow crawlspace.  

2.  It's weird to me how some parts of the Tomb have garish, brightly painted walls while other parts (like this room) are left largely undescribed.  What do the walls look like here?

3.  I like how non-linear the first third of the module is.  There are three separate ways to get from Area 3 to Area 10 -- The Arch, the Tormentor and the hidden passage from Area 7.  You don't see that much anymore.


----------



## Bullgrit

> The module also says "Detect invisibility or any other sort of searching except by careful feeling will be useless,"



This kind of "magic can't solve this" shows up a few times in this module. And then there are other times when only magic can solve something. This is a lousy gimmick. Dare I say, lazy design.

Just what does a _gem of seeing_ do? From the AD&D1 DMG:







> *Gem of Seeing:* One of these finely cut and polished stones is normally indistinguishable from a jewel of the ordinary sort, although a _detect magic_ will reveal its dweomer. When gazed through, the _gem of seeing_ enables the user to detect all hidden, illusionary, invisible, astral, ethereal, or out of phase things within viewing range. Peering through the crystal is time consuming and tedious. The viewing range of the gem is 30" [30 feet] for a cursory scan if only large, obvious objects are being sought, 10" [10 feet] if small things are to be seen. It requires 1 round [1 minute] to scan a 200' square area in a cursory manner, 2 rounds [2 minutes] to view a 100' square area in a careful way. There is a 5% chance each time the gem is used that the viewer will see an hallucination, see something that is not there, or possibly see through some real thing as if it were an illusion.



It should also be noted that this _gem of seeing_ in ToH will only work 12 times and then shatter. There is no clue or information for the PCs to learn this.

Bullgrit


----------



## shmoo2

Bullgrit said:


> We're less than 10 areas into the Tomb. I just went back and read this thread from the beginning, and I wonder if Stoat's original post/question needs to be repeated:
> 
> 
> I'd like to throw in some quotes that struck me, from that mentioned other thread:
> So, in the spirit of Stoat starting this thread: From what we're seeing so far, (again, we're not 10 areas in, yet), are the above quotes about ToH accurate?
> 
> Bullgrit




I'd like to answer that by comparison to another competition module published about the same time: C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. C1 also has a reputation as a PC killer.

I'm running a group through C1 right now.

Here is the description of a likely deadly trap, area 12A:



			
				C1 The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan said:
			
		

> This passageway is slime-covered and a stream of water trickles away from the door. There is condensation on the walls, door and ceiling, which drips on the party. A quiet sound of dripping and splashing echoes in the corridor. This door is tightly sealed and appears to be warped outward or wedged shut. The doors hinges are mounted on this side.




There are several hints here that the room beyond is filled with water, which will wash the party back down the corridor towards a moat, and possible drowning/ loss of items.

In my opinion, C1, here and elsewhere gives perceptive players the chance to figure out how to avoid danger in a way that the traps in S1 do not - since the descriptions in S1 often are no help to the "logic" of the traps. Hence, the evolution of "flying thief on a rope" or "cattle driving through the dungeon" methods to play S1.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 12. Trapped False Door*

At several locations throughout the Tomb, there are false doors which hide spear traps.  When the door is opened, OMG! A spear shoots out!!  The target must make a save versus spells or take 2d8 points of damage.   

Meh.  I address Area 12 only out of an insane completionist drive.  It isn't even a single "area", just a type of trap scattered around the Tomb.  And it's a pretty low-budget trap.  Nobody between 10th and 14th level is going to sweat over "save vs. magic or lose 2-16 hits."  Nobody.  Orcs and goblins put better traps in the Caves of Chaos.  At least its unnecessarily magical.  If the door is closed and reopened, another spear will appear out of nowhere and fire again!

There's an illustration that goes with this area, but it's stupid and ugly.  

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic12.jpg

The first time the players encounter one of these traps is in Area 10.  One trap is behind "an ORANGE sphere held waist high," and one is behind "a PURPLE sphere at feet."  Nothing even close to that comes through in the illustration.

It's marginally interesting that the trap forces a saving throw instead of making an attack roll against AC.  I wonder if that's an artifact of the module's age, or because of the "magic" nature of the spear.


----------



## Bullgrit

I would imagine the trap will only [potentially] hit one person, once. Opening future doors will be done from the side, out of line of a spear shot.

In this second great hall, the PCs may "learn" that illusions conceal safe, real passages that lead to more areas of the Tomb. Physical doors are trapped and lead nowhere. But then, after this second great hall, (with only 2-3 examples of both), the pattern is dropped. No other passages are concealed by these kinds of illusions, and most future physical doors are real and safe. (There are only two other such trapped fake doors anywhere in the Tomb.) So learning this "pattern" in this area serves no use for navigating any other area of the Tomb.

"Meh" is apropos.

Bullgrit


----------



## grodog

Bullgrit said:


> Just what does a _gem of seeing_ do? From the AD&D1 DMG:




FWIW, in _Greyhawk_, it's a bit more vague:  



			
				Gem of Seeing in Greyhawk Supplement 1 said:
			
		

> Gem of Seeing: This jewel allows the user to see hidden, invisible, out-of-phase, or astrally projected things. The user may not be moving when it is being used. It requires a full turn to scan a 20' wall section or a space volume of 20' square. Range: 3".




EGG often provides you as treasure with the means to have more-easily solved the challenge you just faced---sometimes, like this one, it's kind of a "nyah-nyah  " and sometimes it allows you to recover better after defeating the encounter (_scroll of stone to flesh_ found after fighting cockatrices in the tourney version of S4, for example).  I simply took the difficult nature of finding the invisible gem (which is a nod back to a Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser short story too) to be another instance of this style of treasure.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> 3. I like how non-linear the first third of the module is. There are three separate ways to get from Area 3 to Area 10 -- The Arch, the Tormentor and the hidden passage from Area 7. You don't see that much anymore.




Very true---and when you factor in the teleporters, the module becomes even further non-linear.  The one-way doors, however complicate that a bit, too.


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## Bullgrit

Non-linear? I've always considered ToH as one of the most linear of dungeons ever. Explorers go from the first great hall to the second great hall to the chapel to the laboratory to the agitated chamber to the pillared throne room to the false treasure room to the crypt. No way of bypassing any of those areas; no way of taking them in a different order. There are some distraction rooms and false paths here and there, but they all dead end. (Which tells you to go back and check for what you passed/missed.)

Things like having multiple ways of getting from the first great hall to the second great hall don't make it non-linear. It's like if a dungeon had Room 1 with three doors (A, B, C) all leading to Room 2. A, B, and C may use three different tricks/gimmicks, but if they all still lead to Room 2, that's linear. Right?

For the record, I don't consider linearness to be a bad thing in itself. For something like the Tomb of Horrors, a linear path through the trap laden dungeon makes perfect sense. It's a dungeon gauntlet, not a dungeon exploration. 

Bullgrit


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## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Non-linear? I've always considered ToH as one of the most linear of dungeons ever. Explorers go from the first great hall to the second great hall to the chapel to the laboratory to the agitated chamber to the pillared throne room to the false treasure room to the crypt. No way of bypassing any of those areas; no way of taking them in a different order. There are some distraction rooms and false paths here and there, but they all dead end. (Which tells you to go back and check for what you passed/missed.)
> 
> Things like having multiple ways of getting from the first great hall to the second great hall don't make it non-linear. It's like if a dungeon had Room 1 with three doors (A, B, C) all leading to Room 2. A, B, and C may use three different tricks/gimmicks, but if they all still lead to Room 2, that's linear. Right?




I see your point, but I don't agree.  When I made that last post, I was thinking mostly about WotC's 4E adventures, many/most of which move the PC's directly from Encounter Area 1 to Encounter Area 2 with no discretion at all about how they get there.  At their worst, WotC's adventures give the players no choice beyond "go to the next encounter or stop playing this adventure."  They aren't "Room 1 has three doors that lead to Room 2."  They're "Room 1 has one door that leads to Room 2."

In the ToH, the PC's might teleport directly from Area 5 to Area 10.  Or they might go through Areas 8 and 9, having a combat encounter with the Gargoyle and a whatever you want to call it encounter with Area 9.  Or they might teleport to Area 7 and find their way to Area 10 by solving Area 7 and finding the secret door in the crawlspace.  The ultimate destination is the same, but there are three paths to follow, and each provides a different experience with different types and degrees of risk.  It's not I6, but it's not _Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress_ either.

Now what I don't like is that the PC's really don't have anyway to make an informed choice about what they're doing.  There's little/nothing to indicate that one path leads to combat and one path leads to a trap with a secret way out.  The players are flying blind.   

Also, I'm only talking right now about trip from Area 3 to Area 10.  My impression is that the Tomb gets much more linear once the players get to the Chapel.  I'll burn that bridge when I get to it.


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## Bullgrit

Not arguing linearity...

I wonder if the Players playing through this module would even know that they took one of three ways from the first to the second great hall? From their point of view, they could well just think they took the only path. Sort of like the old saying, "If you did it and survived, then you did it right." (Those who took the Great Green Devil route did it wrong.)

Bullgrit


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## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Not arguing linearity...
> 
> I wonder if the Players playing through this module would even know that they took one of three ways from the first to the second great hall? From their point of view, they could well just think they took the only path. Sort of like the old saying, "If you did it and survived, then you did it right." (Those who took the Great Green Devil route did it wrong.)
> 
> Bullgrit




I think this is definitely possible, particularly for parties that figure out Area 5 and move straight to Area 10.


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## shmoo2

Bullgrit said:


> Non-linear? I've always considered ToH as one of the most linear of dungeons ever. Explorers go from the first great hall to the second great hall to the chapel to the laboratory to the agitated chamber to the pillared throne room to the false treasure room to the crypt. No way of bypassing any of those areas; no way of taking them in a different order. There are some distraction rooms and false paths here and there, but they all dead end. (Which tells you to go back and check for what you passed/missed.)




This is a graphical representation of the TOH map - after room 10 it's pretty much a monorail ride to demilich, or death.

I agree with Stoat that the initial part of the dungeon is non-linear, since there are multiple ways to reach room 10, and it matters which path is taken.


----------



## DEFCON 1

It's been a long time since I've really looked at this module, but one thing that came to me as I've read this thread is that I probably would re-write the opening riddle that you get from discerning the corridor path to make it more useful, but also add in more puzzles / word games within the riddle itself for the players to suss out.

So for instance... having read what you guys posted about the room with the the 'spheres'... the riddle is written in such a way that a clever wordplay could be created out of it, and could make for an interesting change in solving the puzzle:

_If shades of red stand for blood the wise
will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of 
magical metal -- you're well along your march._

So in these lines, you've got the mention of 'red'... and the loop of magical metal is a 'ring'.  Now if you were to edit the puzzle a bit and add in a reference to a woman, you can create a section something like this:

_As shades of red stand for blood the wise woman
will not sacrifice her loop of magical metal.
You're well amidst the arch._

The line is telling you (theoretically) that red is blood (deadly), a wise person will not sacrifice a ring of metal, and that you're okay in the middle of the arch (which I believe there's an arch in the Chapel too, right?  The one that changes you're gender?).  However, buried within this are the three clues of 'red', 'her', and 'ring' (red herring).  Thus, the riddle is actually telling you that what it's saying isn't actually correct, and thus you might be better off doing the exact opposite of what it says (sacrificing the ring rather than walking the arch).

This isn't the greatest puzzle in the world, but I mainly came up with it just while reading the thread and hearing the complaints about how it isn't as clear as it probably should be.  If I was to run the module I'd edit things a lot better... but it at least is more along the lines of what I'd like to see hidden and able to be deduced within the puzzle to solve the tomb.


----------



## Bullgrit

Good stuff schmoo2! (Can't give you more xp.)

I love this thread.

Bullgrit


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## Bullgrit

We've seen many references to saving throws in ToH, and some posters have described them as easy (for level 10-14 characters). I thought I'd take a look at the numbers.

The saving throw categories are:
1- Paralyzation, Poison, Death Magic
2 - Petrification, Polymorph
3 - Rod, Staff, Wand
4 - Breath Weapon
5 - Spells

(What category does "save vs. magic" fall under?)

Clerics:
Level 10 = 6, 9, 10, 12, 11
Level 14 = 5, 8, 9, 11, 10

Fighters:
Level 10 = 8, 9, 10, 9, 11
Level 14 = 5, 6, 7, 5, 8

Magic-Users:
Level 10 = 13, 11, 9, 13, 10
Level 14 = 11, 9, 7, 11, 8

Thieves:
Level 10 = 11, 10, 10, 14, 11
Level 14 = 10, 9, 8, 13, 9

Although many of them are 50% or better, I definitely would not call these easy or dismissible. A 14th-level thief has a 50/50 chance to survive poison. Saving versus all those traps shooting darts and spears is virtually 50/50 for all the classes.

Bullgrit


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## grodog

shmoo2 said:


> This is a graphical representation of the TOH map - after room 10 it's pretty much a monorail ride to demilich, or death.
> 
> I agree with Stoat that the initial part of the dungeon is non-linear, since there are multiple ways to reach room 10, and it matters which path is taken.




Hmmm.  I'll work up a flow using [MENTION=1713]Melan[/MENTION] 's flowchart method to compare:  my sense is that even the later areas of the tomb offer more non-linearity/choices that they appear to in your analysis---I'm thinking specifically here of the available exploration options via the corridors (and teleporters) vs. mapping just the flow of encounters themselves.  In the end, the paths may still be more linear than I think they are, but I think it's worth looking at.



Bullgrit said:


> (What category does "save vs. magic" fall under?)




I've always treated it as a save vs. Spells, FWIW.


----------



## pemerton

But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.

Nevertheless, I agree that thieves in particular have sucky saves, and MUs as well in some categories.


----------



## grodog

pemerton said:


> But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.




And Dex in many cases.


----------



## Stoat

The saving throw situation may be even worse than it appears from Bullgrit's charts.  Many of the pregens are multi-classed and have levels lower than 10.  For example, there are 5 pregen thieves: An 11th level Halfing; A Dwarf Fighter 7/Thief 8; An Elf M-U 7/Thief 9; A Half-Elf Fighter 5/Thief 6; and a Halfling Fighter 4/Thief 5.  On the other hand, all but the Elf start play with either a Cloak or Ring of Protection.  In fact, the Dwarf has a Cloak+3 and an 18 Con (which gives him a +5 to saves against Magic and Poison).  

This talk about saving throws raises a question that's been kicking around in the back of my mind: Why take a thief into the Tomb of Horrors?

For the most part, the traps in the Tomb are not the type that the thief will be able to find mechanically.  As far as I know, the 1E thief has no particular ability to find secret doors. There is no real need for stealth in the Tomb.  I'm not sure there are even any locks to pick.

What there are are a ton of traps that force saving throws, a handful of mostly optional combats, and a bunch of places where the PC's take a few dice of random damage.  I'm inclined to think that a clever fighter, with his good saves, hit points and AC, will make a better contribution to the team than a thief.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 13. Chamber of Three Chests*

Area 13 is a square chamber thirty feet to a side.  PC's can reach this place by two routes, both secret.  First, a "secret plug" in the ceiling of the crawlspace leading out of Area 7 opens into the floor here.  Second, the crawlspace behind the red sphere in Area 10 dead ends at an "easily discovered" secret door.   The module clarifies that "easily discovered" means there's 4 in 6 chance to find it.  The floor tilts when this secret door is opened, dumping an unlucky PC to the floor of Area 13 10 feet below.  

There are three large chests affixed to the floor.  One is gold, the second is silver and the third is oak bound with bronze.  They're big: 4 feet by 2 feet by 3 feet.  As far as I can tell, they aren't locked.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13a.jpg

*Gold Chest:*  Snakes!  Oh my god snakes!  12 large asps slither out of the chest and attack "next round."  Each is AC 6 with 9 hit points and attacks as a 3 Hit Die monster.  Their bites only do 1 point of damage, "but saves versus their poison are at -2."  The module doesn't say what happens if you fail a save, but I'm going to guess death.  Here's a picture of the snakes:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13b.jpg

*Silver Chest:* This chest contains a clear crystal box that holds a Ring of Protection +1.  When the crystal box is lifted out of the chest, 8 darts shoot upwards.  1 to 2 PC's are hit with 1 to 4 darts each (no save) for 1d6 points of damage per dart.  So screw you for taking Acererak's magic ring.  A picture is provided:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13c.jpg

*Wood Chest:*  A giant skeleton (literally, it's the skeleton of a giant) has been crammed into this chest.  It wants to hash out a working definition of the term "simulationist."  Brutal combat inevitably follows.

The skeleton seems pretty buff.  According to the module, "it will *always* strike first."  It carries two scimitars and attacks twice per round for 2-12 dmg a pop.  It's AC 2 and attacks as a 10 Hit Die monster.  It only has 32 hit points, but only blunt weapons really hurt it.  Edged weapons do 1 point of damage a hit.  Holy Water does 1-4 points of damage to it.  It cannot be turned and "magic does not affect this monster."   Here's a picture:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic13d.jpg

IMO:  I don't see any clues here.  The right chest is silver, and I haven's even seen the word "silver" in either of the two clues Acererak gives.  Of course, the Gargoyle riddle from Area 8 says, "Look high and low for gold," and the gold chest here is just a box of poison.  Looks to me like picking the right chest is a matter of dumb luck.  If anybody has any other idea, speak up.   

And the combats look pretty wooly.  The snakes attack "next round," so arguably the PC's have a free round of attacks on them.  They've got an acceptable Thac0 (16), and each bite forces a save.  The skeleton is beefy and difficult to hurt.  And escape will be tricky.  Since both entrances are secret, a party can enter Area 13 one way, and not find the other way out.  Plus, the exits are hard to get to.  The way back to Area 7 is through a trapdoor that leads to a narrow crawlspace.  The way back to Area 10 is up on the wall, 10 feet off the floor. I think a careless or unlucky party might lose a member here.  Maybe two.

Finally, why all the pictures?  There are four pictures in the module devoted to this room, and this room is an optional encounter that can be bypassed without consequence.  Are there clues in the pictures?


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> IMO: I don't see any clues here. The right chest is silver, and I haven's even seen the word "silver" in either of the two clues Acererak gives. Of course, the Gargoyle riddle from Area 8 says, "Look high and low for gold," and the gold chest here is just a box of poison. Looks to me like picking the right chest is a matter of dumb luck. If anybody has any other idea, speak up.



Yeah, everything about this set up suggests there's something to figure out -- a "thinking person's module". But having all the info right in front me as the DM, I don't see anything to figure out. No clue, no logic, no hint, no deduction.

Even choosing the "correct" chest, (the one with the +1 ring), results in getting darts in the face. It seems that the only "thinking" to be done here is coming up with ways of mitigating the trap effects.

When I consider "a thinking person's module" I imagine Sherlock Holmes deduction. But the ToH seems more for bomb squad caution. It's not be smart enough to discover and interpret clues properly to avoid traps, it's use enough protection and methods to survive the traps you *will* to set off.

Bullgrit


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## grodog

Stoat said:


> This talk about saving throws raises a question that's been kicking around in the back of my mind: Why take a thief into the Tomb of Horrors?
> 
> For the most part, the traps in the Tomb are not the type that the thief will be able to find mechanically.  As far as I know, the 1E thief has no particular ability to find secret doors. There is no real need for stealth in the Tomb.  I'm not sure there are even any locks to pick.




I think that ToH is very indicative of how OD&D played in the pre-Thief days (it wasn't introduced widely to D&D until Greyhawk Supplement I was released in 1975---it had been previously published in a midwestern newsletter), and is an excellent example of how critical thinking on the part of players would make the thief class unnecessary---exactly because you didn't need a thief to be able to disarm or otherwise avoid most mechanical traps.  

And FWIW, many groups I've played in over the years have house-ruled to allow thieves to use their Find Traps skill to identify secret doors too.


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## grodog

Bullgrit said:


> When I consider "a thinking person's module" I imagine Sherlock Holmes deduction. But the ToH seems more for bomb squad caution. It's not be smart enough to discover and interpret clues properly to avoid traps, it's use enough protection and methods to survive the traps you *will* to set off.




Another excellent point in favor of the pre-thief style of play:  you know you're going to set the traps off, so how can you open the chests (or whatever) in such a way that you mitigate effects (hiding behind the lid as you pop it open may provide cover from the darts, but won't help vs. the skeleton or asps!).


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## Bullgrit

grodog said:
			
		

> I think that ToH is very indicative of how OD&D played in the pre-Thief days ... and is an excellent example of how critical thinking on the part of players would make the thief class unnecessary---exactly because you didn't need a thief to be able to disarm or otherwise avoid most mechanical traps.



OK, I can understand how this module was probably originally designed before thieves were in common use.

But, it is interesting, as Stoat pointed out, that there are 5 thieves in the pre-gen characters list -- that's 25%. 

It's also interesting that 13 of the 20 pre-gen characters are actually below level 10 -- the minimum suggested level for the adventure. (This doesn't count multiclass characters of level 9/X.)

And, what is the "critical thinking on the part of the players" that can get the party through this module? Like what/how in this chest room in particular? I'm not seeing/understanding how that concept is exemplified by ToH, unless the "thinking" is merely trap mitigation. And even trap mitigation is impossible for at least some traps, like in the Complex of Secret Doors.

Heck, these chest traps aren't even mechanical. They're seemingly magical. Would a _dispel magic_ "disarm" them?

Bullgrit


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## FoxWander

I've been following this thread from the start. Great fun! It inspired me to run my group through the Tomb in honor of Gary's birthday. We used AD&D rules with the player's running the pre-gens from the module. I'll make a separate post to discuss their adventures in the Tomb though, since some questions came up that would just distract from the point of this thread. 

What's relevant HERE is a basic concept of old-school D&D that I had to emphasize to my players- characters  could do anything.  There were no "skills" to imply a limit on what actions they could take.  Players describe their character's actions (and the reasoning behind them if necessary) and the DM would judge, based on the circumstances and their description, what happened. I think this is the key to getting through the Tomb.
As written, ANY character can survive the tomb (though it would help if that character were a wizard). It really is a test of PLAYER ability. Theoretically, a properly cautious player could get thru with little more than a 10' pole and some rope. The traps don't need "thief skills" to find or solve- poking literally everything with the pole repeatedly, or some overly-paranoid player description, will suffice. 

The chamber of three chest, for instance, could be "solved" by listening to the chests (after stabbing them with a dagger tied to your 10' pole to check for mimics  ). No doubt one would hear the snakes in their chest and nothing in the others. This might lead one to then try Clairvoyance on the other chests- finding the wooden one empty (the skeleton is teleported into it when opened) and the silver one holding the crystal box and ring. Being rightly paranoid of traps by this point, removing this box by some indirect means- a rope from across the room or via an Unseen Servant (as I said, it's good to be a wizard) is a reasonable precaution and would avoid the darts and net you the magic ring needed to "solve" the chapel.


----------



## Bullgrit

FoxWander said:
			
		

> It inspired me to run my group through the Tomb in honor of Gary's birthday. We used AD&D rules with the player's running the pre-gens from the module. I'll make a separate post to discuss their adventures in the Tomb



Cool. I'll be interested in reading it.



> What's relevant HERE is a basic concept of old-school D&D that I had to emphasize to my players- characters could do anything. There were no "skills" to imply a limit on what actions they could take. Players describe their character's actions (and the reasoning behind them if necessary) and the DM would judge, based on the circumstances and their description, what happened. I think this is the key to getting through the Tomb.



I think everyone in this thread is aware of this concept. I think all of us involved here are experienced "old school" D&Ders. Though I don't see how this is "the key to getting through the Tomb." -- it's just the standard mode of play for classic D&D.



> As written, ANY character can survive the tomb (though it would help if that character were a wizard). It really is a test of PLAYER ability. Theoretically, a properly cautious player could get thru with little more than a 10' pole and some rope. The traps don't need "thief skills" to find or solve- poking literally everything with the pole repeatedly, or some overly-paranoid player description, will suffice.



Well, first, no one has said or suggested that thief skills are needed. In fact, it has been suggested that thief skills are pretty useless here. The other part of your point in this paragraph is the reason for this discussion. Don't just say it, show it.



> The chamber of three chest, for instance, could be "solved" by listening to the chests (after stabbing them with a dagger tied to your 10' pole to check for mimics ). No doubt one would hear the snakes in their chest and nothing in the others. This might lead one to then try Clairvoyance on the other chests- finding the wooden one empty (the skeleton is teleported into it when opened) and the silver one holding the crystal box and ring. Being rightly paranoid of traps by this point, removing this box by some indirect means- a rope from across the room or via an Unseen Servant (as I said, it's good to be a wizard) is a reasonable precaution and would avoid the darts and net you the magic ring needed to "solve" the chapel.



Listening to the chests? Well, that's unique and clever. I don't think I've ever seen that done. Is listening to chests a normal routine in other people's games? But are the snakes alive in the chest? How long have they been there? (I always figured they were in some way magicked in like the skeleton. Though I guess the magic could be in preserving the live snakes, rather than teleporting them in.)

Clairvoyance on the chests is an interesting idea, but how can you see inside a closed chest?

Bullgrit


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

On my flight back from Gencon, I was in the same row as Luke Gygax. He was aisle, I was window and between us was the guy who runs the table top gaming section of PAX. While most of the flight had them talking about running conventions, I did manage to ask Luke about the Tomb and the poem. What I got wasn't very much but it was kind of interesting. He said Robilar found all of the pits by using his orc lackeys in place of sheep and the poem was as much a trap as it was a clue with all the word plays and homonyms it contained.


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> Even choosing the "correct" chest, (the one with the +1 ring), results in getting darts in the face. It seems that the only "thinking" to be done here is coming up with ways of mitigating the trap effects.



What do you mean 'even'? That's the one chest that should have a trap on it. It's the one with the valuable thingy inside. And that's the expectation the players and the characters should have too. You don't ever expect a chest in a dungeon to not be trapped.


----------



## Stoat

The weird/interesting thing is that the chest with the treasure in it has the least dangerous trap.  The worst case scenario is that two PC's take 4d6 points of damage -- an average of 14 hit points.  The monsters summoned by the other chests seem to present a greater risk than that.


----------



## Jhaelen

jonesy said:


> You don't ever expect a chest in a dungeon to not be trapped.



Really? I think that sums up what I HATE HATE HATE about classic adventure design: Players are turned into paranoid wrecks and gameplay turns into a crawl as they thoroughly investigate every mote of dust they come across.

It's the very anti-thesis of fun and of my idea of how adventurers should behave. Being careful is fine, but there's a point at which it's just too much. All it does is cause the players to develop an 'investigation routine' that takes care of every 'trap-scenario' they already encountered.

And THAT leads to a situation where the DM basically decides if the trap is triggered or not by deciding if it uses a trigger that is covered by the (well-known) 'investigation routine' or not. It's a stupid arms race against a DM that gets his kicks from screwing the players and cannot every be won by the players. yuck!

It doesn't even make sense: Why should someone take the effort to trap every single chest in a dungeon? That's utterly crazy! Traps are already a pretty inefficient (and often prohibitively expensive) method to 'secure' whatever is stored in a chest. Trapping every single chest is worse because it guarantees, that it won't surprise anyone.

Disclaimer: Yeah, I know that there are people who feel that this is not only fun but also exactly how D&D should be played but my preferences are quite different.


----------



## amerigoV

Ultimatecalibur said:


> He said Robilar found all of the pits by using his orc lackeys in place of sheep and the poem was as much a trap as it was a clue with all the word plays and homonyms it contained.




I had a thought around the poem. The poem acts more as a prophecy than a clue. And all good prophecies make little sense until the events actually come to pass, and even then there are questions as to was that really the event the prophecy was referring. 

So every time you get further into the Tomb, players get to look back and say "see,  I was right about that line!" or "I guess that is not what 'nights good color' meant." Those that get to the end can "see" much of their path in the poem, even if the poem provided very little help along the way.

That may be one of the key allures of this module - trying to divine what the poem means and map your position in the Tomb to the lines. Its has the same draw as people trying to map historical events to Nostradamus' predictions. For example, here is one trying to tie his words to 9/11 - it reads much like this thread and much like discussions around the table that I remember.


----------



## jonesy

Jhaelen said:


> Really? I think that sums up what I HATE HATE HATE about classic adventure design: Players are turned into paranoid wrecks and gameplay turns into a crawl as they thoroughly investigate every mote of dust they come across.
> 
> It's the very anti-thesis of fun and of my idea of how adventurers should behave. Being careful is fine, but there's a point at which it's just too much. All it does is cause the players to develop an 'investigation routine' that takes care of every 'trap-scenario' they already encountered.
> 
> And THAT leads to a situation where the DM basically decides if the trap is triggered or not by deciding if it uses a trigger that is covered by the (well-known) 'investigation routine' or not. It's a stupid arms race against a DM that gets his kicks from screwing the players and cannot every be won by the players. yuck!
> 
> It doesn't even make sense: Why should someone take the effort to trap every single chest in a dungeon? That's utterly crazy! Traps are already a pretty inefficient (and often prohibitively expensive) method to 'secure' whatever is stored in a chest. Trapping every single chest is worse because it guarantees, that it won't surprise anyone.
> 
> Disclaimer: Yeah, I know that there are people who feel that this is not only fun but also exactly how D&D should be played but my preferences are quite different.



You got all that from my comment about a chest in a dungeon? Seriously? The anti-thesis of fun? Who stole your fun and put it in a trapped chest? Sheesh. That's a lot of comments about things I never said.

And I especially never said anything about trapping every chest. I was talking about expectations.

Consider this for a moment. You're in a dungeon. You come across a chest. Why is it there? Why would anyone leave a chest there? You wouldn't suspect anything? You'd just happily saunter over and open it without a second thought?


----------



## Bullgrit

> thoroughly investigate every mote of dust they come across





> happily saunter over and open it without a second thought



Folks, changing someone's position to hyperbole does not help a discussion. Can we avoid this kind of thing so the discussion can stay cool? I bet your positions on the subject are actually not as far apart as you are each representing the other's.

Bullgrit


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## jonesy

I remember this one time when there was a fork in a dungeon and the paladin ran straight into the other, tripped a pressure plate, and the ceiling fell on him. After we'd dug him up and the cleric had healed him we checked the other passage and found no traps. So we decided unanimously to take the trapped passage. A) One less trap to worry about. B) There must be something important that way. I don't remember if we were right, though.


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## Jhaelen

jonesy said:


> Consider this for a moment. You're in a dungeon. You come across a chest. Why is it there? Why would anyone leave a chest there? You wouldn't suspect anything? You'd just happily saunter over and open it without a second thought?



I'd expect the surroundings to give me clues about the purpose of the chest:

Situation 1: An otherwise empty room with a chest placed in the exact centre?
I'd expect it to be some kind of death trap and carefully close the door again without making a single step into the room.

Situation 2: A room filled with all kinds of junk, among them several containers and a chest?
I'd happily saunter over and open it without a second thought.

I'd like to note that my behaviour in situation 1 is guided by my experience with classic adventure modules:
When looking at a room, the first thing I'd try to figure out: What's its purpose?
The room in situation 1 doesn't serve any recognizable purpose, hence it's suspicious.

But my question to adventure designers (or dungeon builders) everywhere would be:
Why should anyone create such a room in the first place?

IIRC, Tomb of Horrors doesn't feature a lot of rooms that serve a recognizable purpose - everything is suspicious! That's one of many reasons why I don't like the module.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 14. Chapel of Evil*

Just getting to Area 14 is a challenge.  The PC's must pass through the illusory black sphere in Area 10 and crawl along a narrow tunnel for about 200 feet.  The end of the tunnel is solid stone.  There is, of course, a secret passage here.  There's a 1 in 6 chance that the PC's find the door, elves get no special bonus to this roll,  "and no form of magic will detect it, save the *gem of seeing*."  Why won't regular old _True Seeing_ work?  Because Acererak is a bastard, that's why.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic14.jpg

Area 14 itself is a large temple 70 feet square.  The walls are painted with scenes of normal life, except that the people depicted are rotting, worm-eaten corpses.  Creepy.  Also depicted are religious symbols of good alignment, and a faint aura of good can be detected.  Maybe Acererak isn't such a bad guy after all!

A wooden railing running from east to west divides the room in two parts.  The north part, which is 50 feet long, is for common worshipers.  Four rows of heavy pews occupy this area.  A mosaic path runs down the aisle between the pews toward the altar.

The pews have hinged seats.  The first three rows of pews contain treasure: 4,000 silver pieces, 6,000 electrum pieces, and 4,000 gold pieces.  There must be something great in the pews on the first first row!  No.  They're trapped and they spew poison gas into the room.  Everybody lose 2d4 points of strength -- no save -- for 48 hours. 

The altar area is behind the wooden railing.  The altar itself is a block of opalescent blue stone that glows with an inner light.  Behind the altar is a padded, nicely carved wooden chair.  Two brass candelabra flank the chair, each holds five white candles.  In each of the back corners is a white pottery urn, stoppered with a brass and wooden plug.

There's another misty archway in the southwest corner of the room.  A skeleton dressed in rusty black chain mail is stretched out on the ground pointing to it.

The altar has a faint aura of evil.  If any living matter touches it, a lighting bolt shoots up the aisle doing 40 hits points of damage, save vs. magic for half.  After that, the altar turns a "fiery blue-red."  If you touch it after that, it blows up, doing 60 hit points of damage to everything within 30 feet (save vs. spells for half).

The arch looks a lot like Area 5.  Take another look at the picture.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic5.jpg

None of the stones in the archway glow when the PC's approach.  However, the "entranceway" is filled with luminous orange vapors of an exciting hue.  It's a trap.  Anybody that passes through has their sex and alignment reversed.  So many lawful evil women.  Re-entering the arch restores alignment but does 1d6 points of damage.  Going through the arch a third time reverses the PC's sex again and teleports the PC naked back to Area 3 just like the arch in Area 10.  Otherwise, _Wish_ or _Altar Reality_ will fix everything.  Other-otherwise, a PC who has fixed their alignment can fix their sex with _Remove Curse_.

Finally, there's a tiny slot in the southeast corner of the chapel with the letter O faintly traced above it.  This is the way out.

IMO:  There's a lot going on in the Chapel, but I'm not impressed by much of it.  This doesn't look to me like a room full of clues and puzzles.  It's just some traps and the only way to find the way out is to look real hard.  Also, as far as I can tell, Acererak's riddle just skips this area.

The pew trap is obnoxious, but since the PC's can stop and rest anytime it won't really hurt them.  Of course, they don't know that.  

The Archway is mean (so many lawful evil women) but not lethal.  What happens to a typical PC when their alignment is magically reversed anyway?  The module specifically says that Paladins and Rangers will be OK if they can get their old alignments back.  I don't see a whole lot of clues to the nature of the archway, either.  There's a skeleton pointing to it, and the module explicitly says, "The skeleton of course, misleads the party."  

There's another mosaic path here, but no clue.  Bummer. 

Finally, the text for this room is particularly disorganized.  The secret door leading here, the creepy walls, the pews, the mosaic path, the treasure, and the altar area  are all described in one long paragraph.  The pew trap is described in a parenthetical in the middle of this paragraph.  The paragraph detailing the Arch is a little hard to follow as well.  If I missed anything, let me know.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> Finally, the text for this room is particularly disorganized. The secret door leading here, the creepy walls, the pews, the mosaic path, the treasure, and the altar area are all described in one long paragraph.



As I was reading your post, my first thought was about how succinctly and clearly you described this room better than the original text. Really, as said earlier, this whole module needs a good editor. Gygax's stream-of-consciousness writing in long walls of text style really hinders a DM running this module. And this module, of all he wrote, most needs its information presented clearly for a DM to properly handle the PCs interacting with the environment.

An interesting thing: there is only a 1 in 6 chance per PC that they can even find the secret door to let them into this room. So unless they sacrificed the 10 gems to the three-armed statue earlier, there is a distinct chance that the party could be stopped before entering this room merely because no one rolled a 1 on d6. But then I don't know of any DM who would be so unfun as to allow the party to not find the secret door and continue the adventure. 

But then why have the secret door with restricted chance to find at all? I mean, the group had to go through the illusion entrance to even get to this deadend, so why add a random chance to move through? This kind of thing just doesn't make sense to me at all.



> If you touch it after that, it blows up, doing 60 hit points of damage to everything within 30 feet (save vs. spells for half).



Why does everything in here require save vs. spells? Darts, spears, exploding altars, all are spells? At least the poisons in ToH seem to actually be poisons.



> Finally, there's a tiny slot in the southeast corner of the chapel with the letter O faintly traced above it. This is the way out.



So this room can have a bunch of Lawful Evil women looking for the O? . . . Is this interesting or terrifying?

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> Why does everything in here require save vs. spells? Darts, spears, exploding altars, all are spells? At least the poisons in ToH seem to actually be poisons.




It's because "spells" was the catch-all category for saving throws. Anything that wasn't specifically covered by other save categories (paralyzation/poison/death magic, rod/staff/wand, etc.) defaulted to "spells".

2E actually gave saving throws a little more leeway in what they covered (for instance, the exploding alter might have been rod/staff/wand since that one also covered  "situations in which a character faces a magical attack from an unusual source.") But 1E didn't have that (I could've sworn it did, but I couldn't find it)- and since saves were the only way of "avoiding stuff" in 1E, a lot of things defaulted to spells.


----------



## Bullgrit

> It's because "spells" was the catch-all category for saving throws. Anything that wasn't specifically covered by other save categories (paralyzation/poison/death magic, rod/staff/wand, etc.) defaulted to "spells".



Why not have the traps make a to hit roll against the victim's AC (as surprised, sans Dex and shield)? That makes more sense.



> But cloaks and rings of protection, plus in some situations magical armour, all add bonuses to saves.



I just looked these up:

Best save bonus from a ring = +3
Best save bonus from a cloak = +5
I don't see any magic armor in the DMG that grants a bonus to saves.

And just to have some kind of comparison or yardstick, I looked through my treasure data on some of the classic AD&D1 modules to see what level of these items a 9-14th level party might have.

Using that as a base assumption, a PC could have a +1, a +2, up to a +3 ring. But there are no cloaks of protection in that series (T1-4, GDQ1-8). So if the PCs going through the ToH had previously gone through that path, at least some of the PCs could have +3 on their saves. But no better.

Bullgrit


----------



## vic20

Bullgrit said:


> Why not have the traps make a to hit roll against the victim's AC (as surprised, sans Dex and shield)? That makes more sense.




The point of this thread isn't about what Gary _should_ have done. It's about how to survive the module as it is written.



			
				OP said:
			
		

> I'm interested in this: What does it take to survive the ToH?


----------



## Hussar

Bullgrit said:
			
		

> Why does everything in here require save vs. spells? Darts, spears, exploding altars, all are spells? At least the poisons in ToH seem to actually be poisons.




Presuming that Save Vs Spells=Save Vs Magic, IMO, it's because that is everyone's worst saving throw category and the module is just jacking up the DC's for the saving throws.


----------



## Stoat

vic20 said:


> The point of this thread isn't about what Gary _should_ have done. It's about how to survive the module as it is written.




Well, yeah, but I had the same thought as Bullgrit.  Why don't some of these traps attack AC?  Is it simply an artifact of the module's age?  Or does it mean that these traps are magic, and not mundane?  Does _Detect Magic_ reveal them?  Does _Dispel Magic_ help disarm them?


----------



## vic20

Stoat said:


> Well, yeah, but I had the same thought as Bullgrit.  Why don't some of these traps attack AC?  Is it simply an artifact of the module's age?  Or does it mean that these traps are magic, and not mundane?  Does _Detect Magic_ reveal them?  Does _Dispel Magic_ help disarm them?




Well there you are then. Please forgive my derailing attempt to prevent a derailing. 

To the question: I'm not familiar with the spells of the time. Was this problem (uncertainty of how detection magic worked with the traps) part and parcel of DM fiat at the time, or was this module written in a particularly obtuse way that stands out?


----------



## pemerton

Bullgrit said:


> I don't see any magic armor in the DMG that grants a bonus to saves.



It's not in the item descriptions. It's in the saving throw rules in the DMG. The + bonus of magic armour adds to saves vs fire, lightning (but not if metal armour), acid, and subtracts 1 per die of falling damage.



Hussar said:


> Presuming that Save Vs Spells=Save Vs Magic, IMO, it's because that is everyone's worst saving throw category and the module is just jacking up the DC's for the saving throws.



This isn't right. For many classes Dragon Breath is the worst category. For magic-users I think this is generally a good category.



Stoat said:


> Well, yeah, but I had the same thought as Bullgrit.  Why don't some of these traps attack AC?  Is it simply an artifact of the module's age?



Yes. I can't think of a trap from those days that attacked AC. I remember when I first started playing RM around 1990 and noticing that it had traps that acted like ordinary attacks rather than like AD&D fireballs etc (auto damage, save for half/none).


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## Bullgrit

> It's not in the item descriptions. It's in the saving throw rules in the DMG. The + bonus of magic armour adds to saves vs fire, lightning (but not if metal armour), acid, and subtracts 1 per die of falling damage.



*facepalm* God, the AD&D1 DMG is an organizational mess.

I'll have to look that up when I get home.

Edit: Just found this info in the DMG. The saving throw chart is on page 79, the info on magical armor and saving throws is at the end of the second column of page 81. I played AD&D1 for about 15 years, and now, 15 years later, I'm still learning of rules I never knew about.






Bullgrit


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## Gentlegamer

Bullgrit said:


> *facepalm* God, the AD&D1 DMG is an organizational mess.



"When a book and a head collide and there is a hollow sound, is it always from the book?"
    Georg Christoph Lichtenberg


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## grodog

Bullgrit said:


> Edit: Just found this info in the DMG. The saving throw chart is on page 79, the info on magical armor and saving throws is at the end of the second column of page 81. I played AD&D1 for about 15 years, and now, 15 years later, I'm still learning of rules I never knew about.




Yeah, and there's another kicker in that page:  how exactly are saves vs. falling damage supposed to work?   (We did some fairly detailed discussion about falling damage over on K&K awhile ago, if you're curious).


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## pemerton

[MENTION=1613]grodog[/MENTION], I always assumed it was -(X) per die of damage, assuming +X armour. And I don't think I just made that up - I think there is another rule in the book that implies it (but don't ask me where that would be - rings or cloaks of protection, perhaps, or is their effect on falling discussed only in the much later Wilderness Survival Guide?)


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## Bullgrit

Let's not get sidetracked into a discussion on the DMG. I realize I participated in the redirection, (I may even be the culprit who started it) -- sorry. I'm off the subject of the DMG in this thread.

On to more ToH discussion!

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

*Area 15. Stone Gate*

The title of this section is a little misleading.  The text description includes both the Stone Gate and a series of pit traps beyond.

The Gate itself is a stone wedge, 4 feet high, ten feet thick, two feet wide at the narrow western end and ten feet wide at the eastern end.  "It is impregnated with strong anti-magics which prevent its detection or removal or change to another form or substance."  The text from Area 14(c) emphasizes this point, "It cannot be magically detected, nor will it open by physical or magical means . . ."

As noted in Area 14, there's a slot in the Stone Gate that's just big enough to fit a coin, a flat gem or a magic ring.  If you put a magic ring in the slot two things happen (1) the Stone Gate sinks into the ground, allowing entrance to the areas beyond, and (2) your magic ring gets crushed to bits and is lost forever.

The module tells us that the Stone Gate opens easily from the other side, but it does not say if the Gate rises back up into place after the PC's pass through it.  

Beyond the gate is a stairway down, and a hallway that runs to the west.  The hallway is blocked with three doors, one after another.  On the other side of each door is a 10' deep pit, just like the ones back in Area 3.  The module suggests that anyone using force to open a door has a 1 in 3 chance of falling into the pit beyond.

There's a concealed door hidden at the bottom of the third pit.  It's easy to find if you look for it, but the module assumes that the PC's will be expecting the third pit and won't look to closely at it.

IMO:  The Stone Gate is where you "sacrifice aught but a loop of magical metal."  The riddle wouldn't be hard to figure out if it was written somewhere in Area 14, but I think the distance between Area 3 and here makes it harder.  My first instinct if I was faced with the Stone Gate would be to put coins in the slot.  And if I'd managed to figure out the deal with the 3-armed Gargoyle back in Area 11, I'd be prepared to dump a lot of coins down there.  

"Two pits along the way will be found to lead to a fortuitous fall, so check the wall."  That's the second part of Area 15.  Pass two pits and then check the wall at the bottom of the third.  Again, the tricky part is making the connection between Acererak's riddle and this part of the Tomb.

Note that the pit traps are dangerous.  Each pit is full of poison spikes.  Anybody who falls in has a 50% chance of being hit by 1 to 3 spikes, and each spike requires a save versus poison.

Another gag here is the idea that the players will think the doors are stuck and use lots of shoving and force to open them, when really the doors open easily, dumping the PC's into the pit traps like Moe in a Three Stooges bit.  But how likely is it that the players won't check to see if the door is stuck first?  My players check every damn thing in the world before they open a door.  If they ever make it this far, they won't fall for this one.  

Also, there are only a handful of normal doors in the module so far, and the text doesn't say if they are stuck or not.  Is there a default expectation that any dungeon door would be stuck?


----------



## jonesy

I have never seen anyone fall for the pit traps in the games I've played in or DM'd. Maybe we were lucky, maybe we were careful, or maybe it just looks more dangerous on paper than it is.


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## FoxWander

Stoat said:


> "Two pits along the way will be found to lead to a fortuitous fall, so check the wall."  That's the second part of Area 15.  Pass two pits and then check the wall at the bottom of the third.  Again, the tricky part is making the connection between Acererak's riddle and this part of the Tomb.



I meant to mention this back in the discussion of area 10 but...
When my PCs found the riddle in area 3 they didn't assume any kind of order to its "warnings", thinking (oddly I thought) that any part of it was equally valid anywhere. They took the "two pits" part to mean there were two pits with something in them and made a point to thoroughly check the walls of all of them. They found the one-way secret door in the southernmost pit of area 3 using _detect secret doors_ and then manage to open it with _knock_ (I allowed both these spells to work because the module gives no reason why they wouldn't). So they managed to find a fourth way to reach the Hall of Spheres.

I just think its interesting the way you interpreted the "two pits" section (pass 2 pits and look in the 3rd) and the way my PCs did (2 pits have something "fortuitous" on the wall).


Oh- one more thing: I always thought it was odd that the magic ring used to trigger the gate gets destroyed rather than teleported into Acererack's treasure room. With so many other stripping teleport traps to collect treasure it seems weird that a similar treasure collector isn't used here.


----------



## MarkB

FoxWander said:


> Oh- one more thing: I always thought it was odd that the magic ring used to trigger the gate gets destroyed rather than teleported into Acererack's treasure room. With so many other stripping teleport traps to collect treasure it seems weird that a similar treasure collector isn't used here.




Well, he is a demi-lich. He's a little short on fingers.


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 15.*





> "It is impregnated with strong anti-magics which prevent its detection or removal or change to another form or substance." The text from Area 14(c) emphasizes this point, "It cannot be magically detected, nor will it open by physical or magical means . . ."



This kind of magic-won't-solve-this-scenario crops up in several classic D&D modules, and it always seems like lazy design, to me. Designing and enforcing one and only one way to solve a challenge is usually considered bad design and poor game mastering.



> There's a concealed door hidden at the bottom of the third pit. It's easy to find if you look for it, but the module assumes that the PC's will be expecting the third pit and won't look to closely at it.



And here, the flying-thief-on-a-rope trick will prove detrimental to moving forward in this module. Is there any other published module of the time with a concealed/secret door in a pit trap? I don't remember ever seeing one. I would think that unless the party, here, had found the poem in the path, (which we've discussed how unlikely that can be), would anyone think to search the pit traps for a door?

I find this text from the module, interesting:







			
				E. Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> By the time the 3rd door and pit have been reached, they will certainly expect the pit, and will be likely to ignore it. This carelessness will prevent them from examining the pit from within...



He calls avoiding a pit trap "carelessness" because he placed a secret door in the pit.



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> They took the "two pits" part to mean there were two pits with something in them and made a point to thoroughly check the walls of all of them.



Rereading that part of the path-poem, yeah, that actually seems a perfectly reasonable interpretation. And it is correct.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> This kind of magic-won't-solve-this-scenario crops up in several classic D&D modules, and it always seems like lazy design, to me. Designing and enforcing one and only one way to solve a challenge is usually considered bad design and poor game mastering.




Here's what tickles me.  Nothing indicates that the rest of the Tomb is particularly immune to magic.  I don't see any reason why the 14th Level pregen Wizard couldn't just _Disintegrate_ the wall next to the invulnerable block and carve out a passage forward.  I don't have my books, but if _Dimension Door_ doesn't require line of sight, a gutsy wizard could just zap past the Stone Gate.


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> And here, the flying-thief-on-a-rope trick will prove detrimental to moving forward in this module. Is there any other published module of the time with a concealed/secret door in a pit trap? I don't remember ever seeing one. I would think that unless the party, here, had found the poem in the path, (which we've discussed how unlikely that can be), would anyone think to search the pit traps for a door?




I do not recall a pit trap/secret door combo, but a well/secret door combo from ToEE comes to mind. I used that one to good effect in the Skrimshaw Murders AP.


----------



## Hussar

Stoat said:


> Here's what tickles me.  Nothing indicates that the rest of the Tomb is particularly immune to magic.  I don't see any reason why the 14th Level pregen Wizard couldn't just _Disintegrate_ the wall next to the invulnerable block and carve out a passage forward.  I don't have my books, but if _Dimension Door_ doesn't require line of sight, a gutsy wizard could just zap past the Stone Gate.




We played this thing once in 2e.  By that time, casters were just getting gross with all the things they could do.  We did almost precisely what you suggested for almost all the adventure.


----------



## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> This kind of magic-won't-solve-this-scenario crops up in several classic D&D modules, and it always seems like lazy design, to me. Designing and enforcing one and only one way to solve a challenge is usually considered bad design and poor game mastering.




To be fair, it IS only the "gate" itself that's anti-magicked- the stone around it is normal. When I ran through the Tomb years ago as part of Return to the Tomb of Horrors, we bypassed the gate by turning the stone around it to mud. We figured out that a magic ring might open it (because of the riddle) but weren't about to sacrifice anything- in fact, we made a point of stripping everything valuable out of the Tomb. (We, by chance, had two portable holes in the party. We pulled the silver and gold of the chests, got the gold couch from later on, and even the adamantine door of the throne room. It's anti-magicked as well, but again, set in normal stone.)


----------



## Bullgrit

Ultimatecaliber said:
			
		

> I did manage to ask Luke about the Tomb and the poem. .... the poem was as much a trap as it was a clue with all the word plays and homonyms it contained.



I know this is going back to very early in this thread, but this just came to me: Why should the explorers trust the poem in the path? Following the path leads through some of the pit traps, (while going around others). Stoat mentioned this in his original description.

Following the path leads the party into traps sometimes, and avoids traps sometimes. From the party's perspective/experience, the path shouldn't be trusted 100%. So why trust the poem hidden in the path?

The more I think on this, the more convinced I become that the path poem isn't meant to be a "walk through" text. It is intentionally difficult, vague, and misleading. I'm bring this up now, even this late in the thread, because we keep referring back to it as we discuss more tricks and traps through the Tomb. Comparing that path-poem to the tricks and traps throughout the Tomb is sort of like comparing a daily horoscope with our daily events. We'll find things that seem to be related, and we'll overlook/dismiss things that don't relate.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

It might also be worth mentioning that there's a mosaic path in Area 14 that simply leads up to the altar and stops.  The altar is a trap, and the path does not contain any hidden clues or riddles.


----------



## shmoo2

Bullgrit said:


> An interesting thing: there is only a 1 in 6 chance per PC that they can even find the secret door to let them into this room. So unless they sacrificed the 10 gems to the three-armed statue earlier, there is a distinct chance that the party could be stopped before entering this room merely because no one rolled a 1 on d6. But then I don't know of any DM who would be so unfun as to allow the party to not find the secret door and continue the adventure.




That DM call is gonna come up a lot running ToH. 

I don't think I've noticed before following this thread how many of the transitions from one room to the next require the party to find a secret door.

By my count there are 12 secret doors the party must find to reach the demi-lich from area 3. That is the vast majority of transitions [there are maybe 15 total].

Compare that to C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan. There is 1 secret door along the main path that must be found in order to progress further [Area 15 to 16]. And it's made pretty easy to find.

This is obviously an intentional design decision when ToH was written - that searching for secret doors is a fun activity.
I can verify that players definitely enjoy finding them, at least. I'm not so sure about the searching especially when they are required to progress further.


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> The more I think on this, the more convinced I become that the path poem isn't meant to be a "walk through" text. It is intentionally difficult, vague, and misleading. I'm bring this up now, even this late in the thread, because we keep referring back to it as we discuss more tricks and traps through the Tomb. Comparing that path-poem to the tricks and traps throughout the Tomb is sort of like comparing a daily horoscope with our daily events. We'll find things that seem to be related, and we'll overlook/dismiss things that don't relate.
> 
> Bullgrit




I recently posted that it is much like a prophecy vs. a walkthough. Upon further thought, here is what I think it does functionally:


 A warning. If the owner of the abode is willing to give you information, bad juju ahead
 Hope - no matter where you are at, you have something that gives you hope that the Tomb can be defeated. Its just a problem that needs to be solved.
 Everyone can partake in solving the problem. Regardless of if it is a walkthrough or not, the whole group can try to work through what room they are in and does the poem apply. Basically, people enter the room, absorb the detail and try to relate it to the poem.
 Prophecy - as many have pointed out, the thing is maddenly obscure. That has a strong attraction to some.
 Its not a walkthrough, its a Driver. Lets face it, ToH is a big pile of deathtraps that in and of themselves are not all the interesting. A sensible person would just leave well enough alone. But the poem creates momentum to move forward. It gives hints to try something in the more complex rooms ("hmmm, maybe night's good color means...."). It gets people to touch stuff that good gaming sense says to leave well enough alone.

You strip out the poem, the ToH is just a boring killer dungeon. With the poem, it creates an interesting challenge for some.

For me, I love the idea of running ToH, but its not all that exciting to me as a player. I fall into the "hack and slasher/action" player that Gygax warned probably would not like it.


----------



## Bullgrit

Amerigov said:
			
		

> You strip out the poem, the ToH is just a boring killer dungeon. With the poem, it creates an interesting challenge for some.



I think you have an interesting idea. But the poem is so very hard to find. Why hide it, (requiring 130' of persistent, careful study, over several poison-spike-pit traps), if it is intended to be a integral driver?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

shmoo2 said:


> I don't think I've noticed before following this thread how many of the transitions from one room to the next require the party to find a secret door.
> 
> By my count there are 12 secret doors the party must find to reach the demi-lich from area 3. That is the vast majority of transitions [there are maybe 15 total].




It's interesting to me that in some cases, like the entrance to Area 14, the module tells the DM what chance the PC's have to find the secret door.  In other cases, like the nest of secret doors in Area 9, the module is silent about the issue.  Further, as far as I can tell, the relevant portions of the DMG pretty much leave the question up to the DM.


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> I think you have an interesting idea. But the poem is so very hard to find. Why hide it, (requiring 130' of persistent, careful study, over several poison-spike-pit traps), if it is intended to be a integral driver?
> 
> Bullgrit




I would separate this into what it does and what it was designed to do. The only time I played it, we found the poem. I do not recall how hard it was to find, but we played the 3.5 rules update - maybe that one is easier.

It may very well be the accidental brilliance of the module. It could have been thrown in as yet another challenge (as the one poster mentioned from Luke Gygax) that turned out to be brilliant item that ties the whole thing together.

I do agree that if it was placed there by design to do the things I list out, it does seem like it should be easier to find. On the other hand, after the 3 entrances, the sphere of anhilation, the funky pit trap by the box, and the glowing arch, groups might look long and hard to see if there is any patterns along the hall to find. But the latter is speculation - all groups vary 

So while I think the poem is the key to the ToH having a long-lasting appeal, I would not go so far to say that it was the original intention of the poem.


----------



## Bullgrit

Interesting analysis, amerigoV.

Bullgrit


----------



## Rolflyn

Bullgrit said:


> I find this text from the module, interesting:He calls avoiding a pit trap "carelessness" because he placed a secret door in the pit.




No, he calls ignoring the pit "carelessness."  He does not call it careless to avoid the trap.  I think there is a significant difference.



> By the time the 3rd door and pit have been reached, they will certainly  expect the pit, and will be likely to ignore it. This carelessness will  prevent them from examining the pit from within...


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> Interesting analysis, amerigoV.
> 
> Bullgrit




Thanks!

Here is the wording from the 3.5 update to find the poem:


> Characters standing at the north end of the corridor who succeed on a DC 20 Spot check see that the floor mosaic hides barely noticeable runes: a message in Common. It says the following:




That is much easier than the original module (as noted from earlier in the thread). So a rogue that happens to look over the mosaics at the entrance  (Skill Points plus Stat ~14 range) has a 6/20 chance (or 100% chance, if Take 10) to see the runes and piece them together. I say easier as most likely Players would describe they were looking around, at the floor, etc to trigger the roll where as 1e the wording sound more like a definitive action ("I look at the floor for patterns and will go down the hall as needed"). That tells me that Bruce Cordell (who did the 3.5 update) recognized that the poem is vital to the "enjoyment" of the module. Anyone have the 4e update wording?

Reviewing this does bring back my memory of one our players finding and following the trail of runes.


----------



## pemerton

Bullgrit said:


> I think you have an interesting idea. But the poem is so very hard to find. Why hide it, (requiring 130' of persistent, careful study, over several poison-spike-pit traps), if it is intended to be a integral driver?



My answer to this is that it is a feature of the era, that tends to produce compromised design.

An analogy: on a number of recent "problem player" threads, some posters have suggested that (i) the problem player might be encouraged to be less troublesome if s/he had information XYZ, and therefore (ii) the GM should permit an INT or WIS check to learn XYZ.

My response to these suggestions is, if the information is so worthwhile getting into the hands of that player, then why make it hostage to a d20 roll. The GM should just tell them XYZ!

But the intuition that many feel, to have an INT or WIS check, is still there. I think it comes in part from a simulationist mentality - the GM can't tell the _player_ something unless it correlates to some successful process of reasoning in the fiction, which would be modelled by the successful stat check - and in part from a gamist mentality - the GM shouldn't be giving the players anything worthwhile for free. They have to earn it, if only by being lucky.

These habits of thought are deeply ingrained in many, and go back to the roots of the game. I suspect that similar ways of thinking may underlie the ToH's presentation of the poem. The more modern approach - if it will enhance the game for the players to know it, then just tell them (and if necessary, contrive the fiction to make sure the PCs know too) - just wasn't around back then.


----------



## jonesy

amerigoV said:


> That tells me that Bruce Cordell (who did the 3.5 update) recognized that the poem is vital to the "enjoyment" of the module. Anyone have the 4e update wording?



The 4E version is very different. Suffice to say that it's not there.



Spoiler



There are several tombs in the 4E version. The original is now called The Abandoned Tomb, and ravaged. It is played with in the module with rumours of how dangerous it is, only for the characters to finally discover how little of it remains. It's just one small step in the module.



Edit: the 4E module talks a lot about how the DM should provide numerous different ways of both finding and solving things, at one point even saying that if the players really can't figure one out he should allow it to be solved by a history check. As written, it seems to me that finding things is a lot harder there than solving things.


----------



## pemerton

[MENTION=10324]jonesy[/MENTION], are you talking about the 4e supermodule written by Ari Marmell, or the 4e reissue of the original tomb, which I think was a special for RPGA members or something similar.


----------



## jonesy

pemerton said:


> [MENTION=10324]jonesy[/MENTION], are you talking about the 4e supermodule written by Ari Marmell, or the 4e reissue of the original tomb, which I think was a special for RPGA members or something similar.



The supermodule. I didn't even know there was a reissue.


----------



## FoxWander

I have to agree with amerigoV about the poem. Without it the Tomb is just a deathtrap that gives player's little incentive to press on to the end. I've yet to hear of a party that didn't find the poem- an most of them either try to follow it like a guide or at least turn to it when they get stuck.

I don't think that it's merely useful after the fact either. There are several points where it shows the way to go, instead of just the way you should've gone. In the original module that in itself was suspicious and reason enough not to trust it. (Why would the creator of this killer dungeon make a guide to solving it?) But, I think the answer is that the _actual_ creator (Gary) realized just what amerigoV points out- the players would need _something_ to goad them on. In the 2nd edition Return to the Tomb the poem was given an EXCELLENT reason for existing in the context of the game world , the dungeon, and Acererack's endgame (which I won't mention here for those few who haven't tried that version). But in the original version it only makes sense in a meta-game way.


----------



## Jhaelen

Stoat said:


> I don't have my books, but if _Dimension Door_ doesn't require line of sight, a gutsy wizard could just zap past the Stone Gate.



Hmm. When I ran the module I ruled that teleportation magic of any kind didn't work within the tomb. I did this since teleportation was explained as utilizing the astral plane, i.e. I thought it was similar to the following:


> Anybody poking around the Tomb in Astral or Ethereal form has a 1 in 6 chance of attracting a Type I - IV demon. For folks who played a lot of 1E, how rough will an encounter with a Type IV Demon be for a 10th to 14th level party? Is it worth going into the Border Ethereal for some quick scouting?



So, the first time a pc tried to teleport somewhere, the spell was interrupted midway and the pc found himself drifting in the astral plane. Then I started rolling for random encounters, while the others tried to stage a rescue. Naturally, they didn't make it in time as the pc attracted the attention of a demon...

Was teleporting around a common approach of groups that managed to get through the tomb successfully?


----------



## FoxWander

Jhaelen said:


> Was teleporting around a common approach of groups that managed to get through the tomb successfully?



Well, after the near-disastrous success of our rock-to-mud trick* at the gate we used stone shape and polymorphing into an ankheg (for burrowing) to bypass stuff. 

As I said, we went thru the Tomb as part of Return to... so the astral demons are a lot more active in policing the area. We found out about them somehow and avoided any planar travel or monster summoning within the Tomb.


* the area for RtM is HUGE- we wound up flooding the entire hallway after the gate and had a heck of time cleaning up so we could move on


----------



## jmucchiello

Love the thread. Um.. Bump?


----------



## Stoat

jmucchiello said:


> Love the thread. Um.. Bump?




Dwarf Fortress is a Hell of a drug.  Strike the Earth!  But anyway . . .

*Area 16. Locked Oaken Door*

If you miss the secret door hidden at the bottom of the pit trap, you'll find yourself in a long, ten-foot wide hallway that turns and runs north.  There are no branches or intersections, but there is a door at the far end.  

The door is heavily bound with iron bands, "and there are several locks apparent."  If anybody listens, they cn hear far-off music and happy singing coming from the other side.  Acererak has organized a party at Schist table!  

The door is almost impossible to get through.  "No forcing or knock spells will open it."  Those locks that were apparent?  The module doesn't say anything else about them.  Instead, the PC's have to either _Disintegrate_ the door or else chop it to pieces to get to the other side.  When that happens, the music stops and you hear the sound of all those happy people running off.  Maybe you should follow them!

This is all an enormous screwjob.  The noises are just an _Audible Glamer_.  The hallway is a gigantic counterbalanced teeter-totter.  It only takes one PC to throw off the balance.  When that happens, the hallway starts tipping forward and the DM should start counting to 5.  PC's that don't turn around and run get dropped into hot lava.  Strike the Earth!

IMO:  Similar to Area 4, this trap (theoretically) punishes the PC's for being curious and going off the the path.  I don't see any specific clue or warning about its danger.  

On the other hand, even though this is a death trap, I don't think it's very deadly.  The trigger is only 20 to 30 feet from the safety, and a quick acting PC will be able to turn around and run back pretty easily.  Plus, it only takes the weight of one PC to overbalance the hallway.  If somebody is scouting ahead, even a little, they'll be in trouble but the rest of the party will be safe.

I've run traps like this.  There's a doozy in one of the Grimtooth books.   Acererak should have put the fulcrum farther away, and balanced it so it took two or three PC's to set the trap off.  As it is, he just wasted a perfectly valuable nigh-indestructable door.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> The door is almost impossible to get through. "No forcing or knock spells will open it." Those locks that were apparent? The module doesn't say anything else about them. Instead, the PC's have to either Disintegrate the door or else chop it to pieces to get to the other side.



I wonder if people reading this thread but not the module text, itself, understand your accuracy here. It kind of sounds like you are using hyperbole for fun. But you're not:







			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> The door radiates a dim magical aura, and no forcing or *knock* spells will open it. A *disintegrate* spell, or physically chopping it to pieces, provide the only means to continue past it.



Bold as in original text.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Similar to Area 4, this trap (theoretically) punishes the PC's for being curious and going off the the path. I don't see any specific clue or warning about its danger.



The PCs don't even know they've gone off the path. If they missed searching for the secret door back in the pit trap, they think they're just moving along the Tomb path as they're supposed to be.

Actually, I think I like the concept of this trap. It's a "dead end" in the Tomb. Literally. But like so many of the tricks and traps in this Tomb, the [wall of] text is just a little too complicated for quick and easy DM adjudication with more than a couple of Players.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Actually, I think I like the concept of this trap.




I think this has the potential to be a great trap.  I glossed over it, but once the hallway starts tipping, the PC's have a little time to save themselves.  The take some damage from the heat, slide down toward the lava, take more damage, slide farther down, and then fall all the way into the lava.

There's the potential for a some drama as the PC's slip toward their doom, and the possibility that a quick-witted player will save them all with some clever plan or another.  But as I said, I don't think very many parties will fall prey to this trap.  I think most of the time the point man will trigger it, and then turn to run as soon as the DM starts counting.


----------



## amerigoV

Of course, not canon, but a NWN remake of this had something clever. You opened the door and you see someone fleeing down the hall. The might get a group carelessly moving (or just "open fire" - depends on the group )


----------



## FoxWander

The group I just ran thru this heard the music and figured there was no way the sound of "happy singing" in this place wasn't a trap, so they ignored the door entirely. One of them remembered the poem again so they searched the pits and found the secret door.

My group (back in Return) had pretty much flooded this corridor with mud from getting past the Gate. Mud had busted open the 3 "stuck" doors, filled the pits, and then the rest of the corridor to about 4' high. We swam across the 3 pits and found this door. We also assumed the singing meant something wasn't right and thought, because of the poem, that the 3 deep areas we swam across might be pits we needed to search. Since this door was still closed (and seemed to lead to a trap besides) we hoped that at least opening it would give us someplace to move the mud before it started to dry so we could check out those pits. 

We braced ourselves with pitons in the walls and ropes around us (so we wouldn't get swept away) and broke down the door. The mud poured into the corridor beyond but not so fast to be dangerous (all our bracing and preparation wasn't necessary). When the mud reached the tripping point it triggered the trap and we watched the whole corridor become a long pit into lava. We shrugged and said "Yep. Trap." and started shoveling mud down the hall and into the lava. We camped out in the somewhat mud-free corridor and the wizard memorized _move earth_ the next day to empty out the pits. We found the secret door and moved on.


----------



## Herobizkit

Odd question: Why are all of [MENTION=18280]Raven Crowking[/MENTION]'s comments removed from this thread?


----------



## Flatus Maximus

Herobizkit said:


> Odd question: Why are all of [MENTION=18280]Raven Crowking[/MENTION]'s comments removed from this thread?




He left the site and erased some (all?) of his posts. His good-bye thread is in Meta: "Thanks for All the Fish."


----------



## jonesy

He moved the things he said here to his blog (where it now looks rather out of context). I just can't help but wonder what someone who didn't know him will think of this person who has twelve thousand empty posts here. But maybe we shouldn't derail this thread with that.


----------



## Bullgrit

*walks along, whistling innocently*
*"accidentally" kicks thread back to first page*

We left off at 16.

Bullgrit


----------



## Flatus Maximus

Poor thread. Once so full of life and promise....


----------



## Bullgrit

I hope Stoat doesn’t mind me carrying on this discussion.

*17. MAGICAL SECRET DOOR*

The secret door in the wall of the pit trap, (mentioned in area 15), leads to a corridor that goes down stairs to area 18. In the wall of this corridor is a magical secret door that “can be found by any means.” This door will probably be passed at first, unless the PCs are searching every wall throughout the Tomb. But once/if they realize area 18 is a deadend, they may come back to search for another way they missed. 

Once found, “*nothing* will enable it to be opened” until it is viewed through the _gem of seeing_ or some similar magic, (like _detect magic_). Once the PCs have pinpointed the magic aura, they must use _dispel magic_ or _remove curse_ to “remove the guard which prevents the door from being opened.” Then the door can be easily opened from either side.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

Something I find interesting about various gimmicks in the Tomb is that for some things/spots, magic doesn't work. In other spots very specific magic must be used. For one way, detection magic doesn't work, for another way, you must use detection magic to move forward.

Is this supposed to be frustrating, or is there some pattern to the can't/must use magic?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

I haven't forgot about the ToH.  I'm on vacation, and I left my copy of S1 at home.  (I brought I1, but there isn't much to say about it.). also, I-Pad != easy posting.  

A thought about Area 17.  How much help is True Seeing?  IIRC, the lvl 14 Pregen cleric can cast it at least 1 x daily.


----------



## FoxWander

_True Seeing_ should certainly count as 'similar magic', in fact it's practically identical to the gem of seeing. It's what the group I ran thru used. Years back we had an intelligent dagger that could _detect secret doors_ at will (which made the Tomb a LOT easier to navigate).

Now we've come to the point where things got really interesting when I ran this a few weeks ago.  What happens when the group casts _Find the Path_?  

Time was running out on our game session and we were doing this as just a one-shot game in honor of Gary's b-day.  My wife (running the cleric) cast this spell as a way to speed things up and hopefully actually finish.  The spell in 1E is essentially identical to the 3.5 version.  And I could find nothing in the adventure that would prevent this from working (in fact I couldn't really think of anything that would stop the spell from working period- but that's a subject for another post).  This spell makes the Tomb a cake walk.  You can bypass everything.  The only saving grace for the adventure was that it only tells you what actions to take when you should do them.  So it won't "tell" you about the keys until you need to use them at the mithral doors.  Then the party will curse when they get zapped using the key they just found there- and then they'll probably have to backtrack to find the real key.  They'll eventually have to come all the way back to the laboratory for the First Key.  But still, _find the path_ makes this all way to easy.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> I'm on vacation, and I left my copy of S1 at home.



Vacation!? You're bailing out of the conversation about _Tomb of Horrors_ for a vacation!? Dude, where are your priorities?

Just kidding. Have a good one. (I'll be off on vacation in two weeks, myself.)



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> True Seeing should certainly count as 'similar magic', in fact it's practically identical to the gem of seeing.



Yeah, what he said.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Where was I?

*Area 18. False Crypt Protected by Fear Gas*

As Bullgrit noted, the PC's are likely to bypass Area 17.  It's set in the wall adjacent a down staircase.  The stairs lead to a short hall, and then another set of descending stairs.

The hallway at the bottom of the second staircase is "slightly cloudy."  Surely there's nothing suspicious about that!  Turns out, there's fear gas down below there.  Any PC who doesn't hold his breath has to make a save vs. poison or run  off at top speed for 20 to 80 minutes.  There's a door down here, but the fear gas makes it hard to find.  There is "only 3 in 6 [chance] for any character to notice the south door."

Beyond the aforementioned south door is *Area 18A. The False Crypt*, an elaborate hoax.

The door opens into yet another descending staircase.  The stairs are filled with _Webs_ which can only be removed by magical fire.  Any character who tries to break through them becomes "hopelessly entangled and can not get free unless magically burned free or wished out."  Sucks for them. 

At the very foot of the stairs is a silver-inlaid mace.  If anybody picks it up, the mace starts to glow with a bright golden light.  Also, there's this:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic18.jpg

The PC's have entered a crypt (the module keeps calling it the "pseudo-crypt") filled with rotting and decayed furnishings.  Among the furnishings are a jade coffer and an unrotted leather bag.  A "lich-like" monster wearing a crown is resting on a sold-gold couch.  It starts to get up when the PC's enter, and it is afraid of the silvery mace.  A booming voice calls out, "WHO DARES TO DISTURB THE REST OF ACERERAK?   IT IS  YOUR DEATH YOU HAVE FOUND."  The lich attacks!

Except it's not a lich.  It's a special zombie with AC -4 and 32 hit points that attacks once per round for 1d8+2 points of damage.  It can also absorb up to 12 levels of spells.  It pretends to be casting spells, but really it just pounds on the PC's.  If somebody hits the monster with the silver mace, it roars in pain and staggers back.  

After three hits from the mace, the monster crumbles to dust, the mace shatters, and the room starts to collapse.  The DM is encouraged to take time and carefully detail the rumbling, trembling and shaking that happens.  Only the jade coffer, the leather bag, and the lich's crown are within easy reach.  The DM should start counting slowly to 10, just as in Areas 2 and 16, and enjoy the show as the players panic and the PC's run up the stairs.  The tunnel collapses behind them.

It's all an illusion.  Nothing has collapsed.  Everything is fine.  The jade coffer contains six real healing potions.  The crown is worth 25,000 g.p.  The sack contains a few coins, a scroll of low-level spells and a fake treasure map.

IMO: At the outset, I've never known a group of PC's who would blithely walk into a "slightly cloudy" dungeon corridor.  I would expect them to be prepared for poison gas.  If they do fall prey to the gas, the PC's panic and run at top speed for 2-8 turns.  As noted above, that's a long time.  Where are they going to go?  

The pseudo-crypt with the fake lich sort of presupposes that the PC's will pick up the silver mace, assume that the mace is useful against the fake lich, and use the mace to attack the fake lich.  That's a lot to assume.  Moreover, the silver mace is sitting at the foot of the stairs that lead down to Area 18a.  There's no door between the stairs and the false crypt, and the room is pretty small.  The PC's really should see the silver mace, the false crypt and the fake lich all at once.  Finally, the whole thing ends with a big _Programmed Illusion_ of a cave in.  How long does that last?  If the PC's come back in two weeks does it still look like the Tomb has collapsed?

I'm not impressed with this room, but I'm not sure why.  For one thing, it's a particularly poorly written area.  The module's stream of consciousness style is very evident here.  For another, the module presupposes a lot: that the PC's will take up the mace.; that the PC's will think the fake lich is Acererak; that the PC's will attack the fake lich instead of fleeing or negotiating; that the fake mace will strike the killing blow against the fake lich; that the PC's will fall for the illusory cave-in.  It feels overly scripted to me.  

Still, this isn't a death trap.  The fake lich is not dangerous, does not cast spells and should be pretty easy to kill.  The treasure is OK but no overwhelmingly valuable.  Those facts are clues to the players that the module isn't over yet.  My guess is that most groups are not fooled by Area 18.


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> The door opens into yet another descending staircase.  The stairs are filled with _Webs_ which can only be removed by magical fire.  Any character who tries to break through them becomes "hopelessly entangled and can not get free unless magically burned free or wished out."  Sucks for them.



Considering everything else in this area, that seems an oddly specific and hard to handle trap. If the party first tries to use normal fire to break it (which I'd assume would be everyone's natural first reaction after trying to hack at it), how many will think to use magical fire? How many traps do you remember where normal fire is ineffective, but magical fire isn't?


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

It's also weird that your options for freeing your trapped friend are "a common 3rd-level spell" or "rewrite reality."

It smacks of the Evil Overlord list:



			
				Evil Overlord List said:
			
		

> 150. I will provide funding and research to develop tactical and strategic weapons covering a full range of needs so my choices are not limited to "hand to hand combat with swords" and "blow up the planet".


----------



## Stoat

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> It's also weird that your options for freeing your trapped friend are "a common 3rd-level spell" or "rewrite reality."




The module actually suggests good old first level _Burning Hands_ as a way to get through the webs.


----------



## shmoo2

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> It's also weird that your options for freeing your trapped friend are "a common 3rd-level spell" or "rewrite reality."




Burning Hands is a 1st level spell, and very common.

Some DM's might allow Produce Flame or Pyrotechnics (both 2nd level) to be used here as well.

I just don't understand why the restriction to magical fire is there.
From an in-character point of view - why are there Webs resistant to normal fire? What's special about them?

And more important, from a metagame POV how does this add to the fun in any way?


----------



## Bullgrit

*Area 18. False Crypt Protected by Fear Gas*

Yeah, this is a strange one.



> Any PC who doesn't hold his breath has to make a save vs. poison or run off at top speed for 20 to 80 minutes.



Where are they going to run? It’s not like they have a clear path anywhere. It’s likely a feared PC will simply run back to the bottom of the pit trap and have to stop. And even if the feared PC can get out of the pit and navigate backwards through the Tomb, that means the DM has to split his time and attention between the PCs who stay at area 18 and those who are fleeing. This is just a frustration for a DM and the Players.



> The stairs are filled with Webs which can only be removed by magical fire.



Another example of requiring magic to move forward. Later we’ll see where using this magic will be restricted or a bad idea.



> At the very foot of the stairs is a silver-inlaid mace. If anybody picks it up, the mace starts to glow with a bright golden light.



I would think that this would scream “trap or trick” to anyone who’s made it this far into the Tomb. Is it smart to pick up and use the mace, or smart to leave it alone?



> It's a special zombie with AC -4 and 32 hit points that attacks once per round for 1d8+2 points of damage.





> After three hits from the mace, the monster crumbles to dust, the mace shatters, and the room starts to collapse.



The “lich” only has 32 hit points. It won’t last three rounds even without the mace. 







			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> Between strikes the zombie will gesture magically with its hands as if readying a spell.



So it gestures like casting a spell, but then swats at you, it gestures, then swats at you? This whole fight will be short and pathetic. Does the room collapse illusion happen if the “lich” is killed without the mace?



			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> If the party runs out, ask them if they thought it was too hard a dungeon.



Oh wow, look at the smug attitude. I wonder how the designer would feel if the Players quickly figured out the whole thing was a programmed illusion and they told the DM they thought it was too insipid a dungeon?



> Only the jade coffer, the leather bag, and the lich's crown are within easy reach.





			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> …and a fine leather bag (a give-away – it isn’t rotten)…



What exactly is being given away here? What is it about the presence of a non-rotten leather bag that gives a clue to anything? It isn’t a trap or trick. 



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> … the module presupposes a lot: that the PC's will take up the mace.; that the PC's will think the fake lich is Acererak; that the PC's will attack the fake lich instead of fleeing or negotiating; that the fake mace will strike the killing blow against the fake lich; that the PC's will fall for the illusory cave-in. It feels overly scripted to me.



I agree. This is one of the weakest areas of the Tomb, which is weird because it’s supposed to be a climactic moment – a moment that should seem like the end of the Tomb adventure. I can’t imagine any experienced Players falling for this whole thing.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

I certainly agree that Area 18 is the weakest area of the Tomb that I reviewed so far.  It mostly seems pointless.  There's basically no threat to the PC's here.  

The fear gas and the webs could be part of a horrible trap, if they were combined with some threat.  Frex, if a monster attacked while half the party was terrified and half was stuck in webs.  OR if the Fear gas drove the PC's into the webs.  But what's most likely to happen is that the party takes each "challenge" separately.  They deal with the gas.  Then they move on to deal with the webs.  Then they move on to deal with the "lich."  

And yeah, I have a hard time imagining that the PC's are just going to pick up the mace and use it, and I have a hard time imagining that the "lich" will last three rounds anyway.  I haven't crunched out the numbers, but I suspect that at this level his -4 AC won't be too hard to hit.

I guess you could say that this room contains a pile of treasure, and treasure has been lacking in the module thusfar.  So, assuming the PC's get this deep into the tomb, and assuming that they aren't fooled by the illusion, they get some loot.


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the party runs out, ask them if they thought it was too hard a dungeon.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh wow, look at the smug attitude. I wonder how the designer would feel if the Players quickly figured out the whole thing was a programmed illusion and they told the DM they thought it was too insipid a dungeon?
> 
> *



*

IIRC, Necropolis has the same thing - a fake "final battle" with similiar wording. Must be an EGG thing 

I like the concept - the module is designed to challenge the players - so creating a false ending is right in line (then the DM can later taunt the players for their poor play ). But I agree the room itself is rather weak. Additionally, given most people know what a demi-lich is this room needs serious revamping if one were to run it today. The mace should be found somewhere else as a MacGuffin that works on the fake Acererak, but of course just helps the real one.*


----------



## Loincloth of Armour

Another thing to consider --for my party at least-- was the fact that here was something in the Tomb you could finally _hit with swords!_

I can't discribe how cathartic it was to finally have a battle, to roll dice (and not worry about dying instantly), to scan your spell list for the old favourites _shield, fireball, magic missile_, etc, mark off hit points from hits, and cry with joy when scoring a natural 20 on an attack roll.

After all the brain sweat from dealing with all the trap crap, a good, stand-up fight... felt _good_.

(I think our DM gave it more hp, since the fight lasted longer.)

We retreated from the 'load-bearing boss collapse' but immediately went back in order to see if we could dig out the golden couch. So greed defeated the illusion in pretty short order.

The mace seemed like a call back to the "find a silver dagger in the dungeon in room 4, and lycanthropies in room 5" type of adventure design we'd all played before. However, the nature of the Tomb played against this one, as nobody touched the mace. 

"Trap?"
"Trap."
"Totally a trap."
"Trap-a-rama."
"Trap-a-mundo."
"What in here isn't a trap?"


----------



## FoxWander

My party's fight here (as part of Return) was almost comical. We found the secret door on the stairs via True Seeing and decide to continue down so we wouldn't leave an area unexplored at our backs. Out party was either immune to fear from various effects or simply made our saves against the gas- at any rate we hardly noticed it except to realize it was a trap. We found the door and got thru the webs with the flaming sword (Rod of Lordly Might) I had had. And then it was right into the "lich."  

We ignored the mace and just attacked. Our party won initiative and... annihilated the "lich" before it had a chance to do anything!  The easy fight and our rather quick descent to this point meant our cleric's True Seeing was still active when the ceiling started to "collapse."  Seeing thru the illusion made everyone's disbelieve checks easy so we stood our ground and then simply looted the room.


----------



## GQuail

Late arrival to this thread (not a regular reader here on ENWorld anymore) but very interested to find this, as I'm running it for a party right now.  Of the five players three were in my 3.5 D&D campaign and two others have played various modern games with me - only one will have played any 70s/80s D&D edition in the past.   It's really interesting to see them approach this dungeon and compare it with the comments of people more experienced in older edition thinking.

So far it's worth noting that no-one has taken any serious injury.  In session one they tripped a fake entrance and had the box/pit trap at the first main hall teach them concern.  (And I almost had one of them go into the green devil head.... almost!)  From then on they were much more SWAT-like and session two featured a lot of careful preparation.  Even if you don't think in old-school dungeon crawl logic, it seems hard to play the Tomb of Horrors and not start operating like that.

Going back a few pages, thing I would note is that I found the "slot with an O" in the Chapel very poorly worded indeed.  The slot is noted in 14 and the method of opening is listed as in 15, which is /the corridor on the other side/.  We got further in one sitting than I planned and hadn't read this far ahead in detail so I assumed this meant it was a one-way door, but it's actually to be opened in room 14.  As others have said, Gary seems to have just written things as the mood takes him.


----------



## jonesy

GQuail said:


> So far it's worth noting that no-one has taken any serious injury.  In session one they tripped a fake entrance and had the box/pit trap at the first main hall teach them concern.  (And I almost had one of them go into the green devil head.... almost!)  From then on they were much more SWAT-like and session two featured a lot of careful preparation.  Even if you don't think in old-school dungeon crawl logic, it seems hard to play the Tomb of Horrors and not start operating like that.



Are they doing things they normally wouldn't have? What have they thought of it so far?


----------



## GQuail

jonesy said:


> Are they doing things they normally wouldn't have? What have they thought of it so far?




They are definitely behaving differently to how they normally would.  Part of that is that they know the dungeon by reputation - not just from their initial exposure to traps but from me mentioning the dungeon came in the top 3 of Dungeon magazine's "best adventures" poll.  I made a point of warning them it was a likely lethal dungeon before going in so they wouldn't get bummed if they died randomly, but it has the consequence of making them more wary.

For example, in my custom dungeons or in pre-made adventures they've occasionally had to worry about specific method of opening doors or similar minutae but usually they've been able to just say "I search for traps" and have the game assume their PC knows the correct procedure.  Here, however, trial and error has arguably been more useful in working out how traps work and how to bypass them.

It's worth noting that in 3rd edition we played up to epic levels so this is a notable step down the power level for them.  Furthermore, no-one chose a straight spell-caster, so the party composition is Fighter/Cleric, Fighter/Illusionist, Fighter, Thief/Wizard and Thief - and like the pregens from the module noted earlier in the thread, this means that most of them aren't actually 10th level in any of their classes.

Have they enjoyed it?  I'd say yes, but I think it's key that it's being treated sorta like a convention game and is aware of the tomb's TPK-inducing status.  If they were playing a full campaign, running beloved characters with months if not years of play and suddenly this sort of dungeon happened I think they'd be very unimpressed.


----------



## GQuail

Loincloth of Armour said:


> Another thing to consider --for my party at least-- was the fact that here was something in the Tomb you could finally _hit with swords!_
> 
> I can't discribe how cathartic it was to finally have a battle, to roll dice (and not worry about dying instantly), to scan your spell list for the old favourites _shield, fireball, magic missile_, etc, mark off hit points from hits, and cry with joy when scoring a natural 20 on an attack roll.
> 
> After all the brain sweat from dealing with all the trap crap, a good, stand-up fight... felt _good_.




Yeah, the only two fights before this are avoidable - the four-armed gargoyle on one of the routes to the spheres hall, and the snakes & giant skeleton on the chest spur of the map.  This could well be the first fight the players get into all adventure and thusly a pleasant change of pace.  Dunno how many people it would genuinely trick as others have said but at least you get to deal with a more traditional dungeon encounter.

The idea of a "fake final battle" isn't intrinsically terrible to me, though I'd agree it seems a bit clumsily handled here.  The fact that what a demilich is better known these days would indeed be a factor here, and the ease of beating the fake lich is also a presence.  

Would it be possible to increase the difficulty in some way without making it unfair?  I'm pondering some sort of teleportation spell so it looks like the PCs are disintegrated but in fact are sent back to the start of the dungeon, far enough that they'll never get back to the fight in time.  True, this means when they get to the entrance they'll suspect they were tricked, but as written it's not going to be much different anyway.

I'll post again after I run tonight as they should easily get this far in.  We'll see what a modern group makes of it.


----------



## Bullgrit

Now that we are over half way through the Tomb, I want to compare the facts of the text so far with what some folks, (mostly in other threads referring to this module), claim as truth about this adventure. The following quotes come from other threads about ToH, and they all got either xp awards from people agreeing with the assessments, or they got replies agreeing with the assessments. (So it seems that the following statements are commonly believed to be factual or truthful.)



> The module gives you clues in the form of riddles, and those riddles are, essentially, a "walk through" for the entire module (if you can parse them out carefully). On the other hand, if you fail to notice the first riddle, or if you ignore the clues provided, well, the module can kill you pretty quickly.



Well, there’s only one riddle, and it is pretty difficult to discover. (I think it is even likely to be undiscovered if played by the text as written.) But even if it is discovered, it is far from a “walk through” for the Tomb. It is generally very vague, and even seemingly misleading. So far in this discussion, different people, (even those in support of the riddle), have given different, (and sometimes contradictory), interpretations of it. So this statement seems inaccurate.



> Unlike some modules, with traps that have no possible way of being decoded short of painful experience, <snip comment on another module>, ToH presents players with a chance to figure things out.



We’re not seeing *anything* that lets the Players figure anything out. Every trick and trap requires taking precautions and protections, and then just testing. So this statement seems to be a completely false, (reversed from fact).



> Acererak follows a pattern and sticks to it, so that with care you really don't have to guess after you successfully enter the tomb.



I’m not seeing any pattern for anything. Everything is guesswork. This statement seems completely false. (If there is a pattern, I really wish someone would point it out.)



> … it is utterly unmerciful and unforgiving.



Many of the tricks and traps are not particularly deadly. Some are just annoyances and attrition. This statement seems false.



> If the tomb warns you against doing something, then its a fair warning and the consequences of ignoring it will be bad. If the tomb provides you a clue, it's a fair clue that isn't meant to mislead you.



Other than the riddle in the early red path, (which is vague and misleading), still not seeing any warnings or clues for or against anything. This statement seems baseless.



> Acererak doesn't build a maze. He doesn't make you guess which way to go. It's not a sprawling labrinth filled with a lot of arbitrary choices between left and right with no way of knowing which leads to certain doom and which to a reward. You aren't arbitrarily picking your way through it, and if you paid attention he'll give you very specific directions through the tomb. False leads look like false leads once you have the real one to compare them too, so just look around before you decide to follow the first thing you find and you'll be alright.



No, it’s not a sprawling labyrinth; it’s pretty linear with respect to ways forward. I’m still not seeing “very specific directions” or any hints or clues on how to distinguish between false leads and the correct path. Heck, false leads and the correct path are often both hidden and trapped. So this statement seems false.



> Acerak doesn't rely on attrition. He's not trying to wear you down. He's not going to force everyone to make a saving throw just to go foward and turn the whole affair into a test of whether you can roll high on 4 or 5 unavoidable rolls in a row.



Actually, there is a lot of attrition in this Tomb. And there are tests to roll many saves to move forward. This statement is definitely false.



> The dungeon doesn't amount to whether you can win initiative enough times, or whether you roll high on your damage dice, or whether the monster makes his saving throw, or whether you can avoid a streak of 1's.



True, because there are very few combats in this Tomb.



> If you play by his rules, you'll probably never have to make a saving throw, and if you screw up and get reckless you'll probably never have a chance to.



He doesn’t seem to follow any rules or patterns. Even if you take the proper path, you may have to make many saving throws. And screw ups haven’t all been especially deadly. This statement seems false.



> there is almost no luck, good or bad



There is a lot of requirement of luck, from many saving throws to many search checks (1 in 6 chance to find the secret door you must find to move forward), to picking which chest to open with no clue or hint provided.



> ToH is fair with Acererak being predictable and clues for the right decision being available.



This general statement is seeming more and more false with every numbered area we cover in this thread.

As I’ve said before, this adventure, presented as a “thinking person’s module,” is mostly “bomb-squad thinking,” (use caution and protection, then test), and little/no “Sherlock Holmes deduction thinking,” (figure out the clues and hints). For instance, when presented with three chests, there are no clues or hints for the Players to use in figuring out which chest to open or how to avoid a trap. The Players are required to assume all things are trapped, and take mitigating precautions and protections to survive or avoid the effects of the traps. 

This is a legitimate play style, (one that some people really enjoy), but I’m always left wondering why those who like this module always present it as the other play style. Why say there are clues and patterns when there obviously are not? Why say it’s a “thinking person’s module” when it’s more of a “cautious and meticulous person’s module”? There’s nothing wrong with cautious and meticulous play style if that is what the group likes/prefers.

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

I really don't like multi-quoted posts, but I can't see any other way to do this. I'll apologize now for the long-ish post.



Bullgrit said:


> Well, there’s only one riddle, and it is pretty difficult to discover. (I think it is even likely to be undiscovered if played by the text as written.) But even if it is discovered, it is far from a “walk through” for the Tomb. It is generally very vague, and even seemingly misleading. So far in this discussion, different people, (even those in support of the riddle), have given different, (and sometimes contradictory), interpretations of it. So this statement seems inaccurate.



How hard the riddle is to discover depends on how the DM plays it.  If he takes the module text literally and says nothing to a player that is studying the mosaic until they reach the very end, then it is likely to go undiscovered. With all the traps and distractions along the path it's unlikely a player would stick with it until the end if the DM gives him no clue he might be onto something. This also seems like the least realistic way to handle it. It's not as though the path is enchanted to suddenly reveal the riddle in whole only to someone who has kept his eyes on the path throughout- but this is exactly how I've heard of some DMs playing it!  More realistically a player would announce they are studying the path (something very likely to happen when first presented with this colorful hallway) and the DM would give some hint that there seems to be a hidden pattern but it doesn't quite make sense.  That would certainly get the player to study the entire thing and find the riddle. 

While I'd love to analyze the riddle as it relates to every room/obstacle it may or may not point to.  That could only really be done by laying out the entire thing which would jump the gun quite a bit given the linear style of this thred. So I'll wait to get into the riddle until we're nearer the end.



Bullgrit said:


> We’re not seeing *anything* that lets the Players figure anything out. Every trick and trap requires taking precautions and protections, and then just testing. So this statement seems to be a completely false, (reversed from fact).
> 
> I’m not seeing any pattern for anything. Everything is guesswork. This statement seems completely false. (If there is a pattern, I really wish someone would point it out.)



I'll lump these two together because they concern the same thing.  Also I don't agree with your "false" assessment in both... and I'm not really sure you do either. If every "trick and trap requires taking precautions and protections, and then just testing" how is that not figuring things out? And how does the same thing amount to "guesswork"? While it's true there is no pattern (in fact it seems downright random at points) it mostly doesn't take guesswork or luck to get thru. Note I said "mostly" there.  While some of the tricks _themselves_ that we've covered don't make a bit of sense (Who would really let 10 gems get crushed? Why does the gate require a magic ring? Why does the secret door require magical detection?) They can still be figured out without resorting to complete randomness in return.



Bullgrit said:


> Many of the tricks and traps are not particularly deadly. Some are just annoyances and attrition. This statement seems false.



This one depends on your view of "unmerciful and unforgiving."  I counted at least 18 save-or-die obstacles (mostly poison- either spikes or asps, but a few others) which isn't really deadly given the saves at this level. But there are at least three TPKs that simply require making the wrong choice or getting unlucky. That's a lot of near certain death for one dungeon.



Bullgrit said:


> Other than the riddle in the early red path, (which is vague and misleading), still not seeing any warnings or clues for or against anything. This statement seems baseless.
> 
> No, it’s not a sprawling labyrinth; it’s pretty linear with respect to ways forward. I’m still not seeing “very specific directions” or any hints or clues on how to distinguish between false leads and the correct path. Heck, false leads and the correct path are often both hidden and trapped. So this statement seems false.



Again, both of these depend on how you view the riddle, which, also again, I'm not sure we want to get into right now.



Bullgrit said:


> Actually, there is a lot of attrition in this Tomb. And there are tests to roll many saves to move forward. This statement is definitely false.



Completely agree with you here.  There's all kinds of attrition in the Tomb.  It's only saving grace in that respect is that you could camp out pretty much anywhere and take as long as needed to recover.  And we've covered at least three arbitrarily (and bizarrely) difficult to detect doors that prove the 'no high rolls needed' bit false.



Bullgrit said:


> He doesn’t seem to follow any rules or patterns. Even if you take the proper path, you may have to make many saving throws. And screw ups haven’t all been especially deadly. This statement seems false.



And completely disagree with you here.   It's VERY possible to go thru the entire Tomb with hardly a scratch (my party did it in Return). And there are at least three TPKs down the line that any party can quite easily fall for- and two that we've already passed. The green mouth and the lava trap. While both aren't _certain_ death- they could be. The first just requires a series of bad decisions (one pc crawls in and others are likely to follow just in the interest of not splitting the party- happened on my very first encounter with the Tomb many years ago. I was the only one to say screw that and go back to town looking for some way to contact the others before I crawled in- at which point the DM congratulated me on being the sole survivor) and the next just requires a little too much hesitation.



Bullgrit said:


> As I’ve said before, this adventure, presented as a “thinking person’s module,” is mostly “bomb-squad thinking,” (use caution and protection, then test), and little/no “Sherlock Holmes deduction thinking,” (figure out the clues and hints). For instance, when presented with three chests, there are no clues or hints for the Players to use in figuring out which chest to open or how to avoid a trap. The Players are required to assume all things are trapped, and take mitigating precautions and protections to survive or avoid the effects of the traps.
> 
> This is a legitimate play style, (one that some people really enjoy), but I’m always left wondering why those who like this module always present it as the other play style. Why say there are clues and patterns when there obviously are not? Why say it’s a “thinking person’s module” when it’s more of a “cautious and meticulous person’s module”? There’s nothing wrong with cautious and meticulous play style if that is what the group likes/prefers.
> 
> Bullgrit




I'd say, a lot of whether one thinks this is a "thinking person's dungeon" (as the module claims) depends on if one considers the "bomb-squad thinking" as a sufficient level of thinking to fulfill that claim.  As for deductive thinking, I'm of the opinion that the riddle is a useful clue/guide, so I think it fills that category- to some degree.  But yes, most of the dungeon is simply covering all the bases while you resolve each trap/obstacle, and then the next, and the next...

As for the three chest, yes there are no clues or hints to "solve" this but that's where the "bomb-squad thinking" IS actual thinking. I pointed out several tactics for the chests in my first post here.  

It goes back to the "old school" mind set that I tried to emphasize in that post but didn't quite get across.  This dungeon is set up to give the players NOTHING. They will have to think and try and test at every obstacle to move forward. Just like exploring an actual dungeon- it's not going to volunteer any info. A party hoping for clues/hints will not enjoy this dungeon. If they don't pry their own hints out of it, they're going to have a very rough time.


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Well, there’s only one riddle, and it is pretty difficult to discover.




Would you count the poem held by the gargoyle in Area 8 as a "riddle"?  It looks like a riddle, but we couldn't get any kind of consensus on what the right answer to it might be.

I'm withholding judgment about the thesis put forth in the posts you quoted until I get to the end of the module.  

However, I've got to say that I haven't seen a whole lot of clues or hints outside of the riddle in Area 3.  Most of the folks who were advocating that Acererak plays fair seem to have dropped out of the discussion.  I'd really like to hear from them.  I would love it if there was an over-arching pattern or series of hidden clues or whatever that would allow cunning PC's to solve the ToH.  But so far, I'm not really seeing it.


----------



## Bullgrit

FoxWander said:
			
		

> How hard the riddle is to discover depends on how the DM plays it.



Yeah, this is an unfortunate aspect of this whole module. How the DM adjudicates the material – how much he deviates from the text as written, how easy or hard he makes it – can have a lot of influence on how well the PCs do in the Tomb.



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> If every "trick and trap requires taking precautions and protections, and then just testing" how is that not figuring things out?



True, but see below.



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> I counted at least 18 save-or-die obstacles (mostly poison- either spikes or asps, but a few others) which isn't really deadly given the saves at this level. But there are at least three TPKs that simply require making the wrong choice or getting unlucky. That's a lot of near certain death for one dungeon.



Good point. But I was taking issue with “*utterly* unmerciful and unforgiving.” Utterly = entirely, fully, wholly, totally. There’s a lot of non-lethal tricks and traps in the Tomb.



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> It's VERY possible to go thru the entire Tomb with hardly a scratch



Really, “VERY possible”? Maybe the one coward of the group, who hangs back and doesn’t actually do anything but follow the others after they’ve done the dangerous trial and error work. I just don’t see how it is even remotely possible . . . unless we have drastically different ideas of what is “hardly a scratch.”



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> I'd say, a lot of whether one thinks this is a "thinking person's dungeon" (as the module claims) depends on if one considers the "bomb-squad thinking" as a sufficient level of thinking to fulfill that claim.



Yeah, I’ll agree that bomb-squad thinking is thinking. But then, tactical thinking in hack-and-slash combat is thinking, too. It’s just that the “thinking” vibe the intro to this module gives, and the “thinking” hype that people who hold this module up as a brilliant masterpiece give, seems completely different to the “thinking” actually required by the adventure.

I mean, my idea of “thinking” is that given two doors, the Players can figure out from clues and hints and such which is the correct door to open and move through. But the “thinking” in this module is not in figuring out which door to open, but how to mitigate all the potential traps both doors will spring on you.



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> This dungeon is set up to give the players NOTHING. They will have to think and try and test at every obstacle to move forward.



Yes, I agree. But the quotes I was responding to above all suggest, (or outright state), that the dungeon is set up to give the Players EVERYTHING, and they just have to pay attention and figure out the clues/riddles/hints.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Would you count the poem held by the gargoyle in Area 8 as a "riddle"?



I forgot about that one. Probably because we couldn’t figure out if it was actually a clue riddle or non-sense red herring.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Most of the folks who were advocating that Acererak plays fair seem to have dropped out of the discussion. I'd really like to hear from them. I would love it if there was an over-arching pattern or series of hidden clues or whatever that would allow cunning PC's to solve the ToH. But so far, I'm not really seeing it.



Yeah, I noticed their absence, also.

Bullgrit


----------



## Hussar

> Originally Posted by FoxWander
> This dungeon is set up to give the players NOTHING. They will have to think and try and test at every obstacle to move forward.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I agree. But the quotes I was responding to above all suggest, (or outright state), that the dungeon is set up to give the Players EVERYTHING, and they just have to pay attention and figure out the clues/riddles/hints.
Click to expand...



Sorry, reading this just made me post this:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHxIssSROjk]300 give them nothing - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> As I’ve said before, this adventure, presented as a “thinking person’s module,” is mostly “bomb-squad thinking,” (use caution and protection, then test), and little/no “Sherlock Holmes deduction thinking,” (figure out the clues and hints).
> 
> ...
> 
> This is a legitimate play style, (one that some people really enjoy), but I’m always left wondering why those who like this module always present it as the other play style. Why say there are clues and patterns when there obviously are not? Why say it’s a “thinking person’s module” when it’s more of a “cautious and meticulous person’s module”? There’s nothing wrong with cautious and meticulous play style if that is what the group likes/prefers.
> 
> Bullgrit




I might have to add this back to my list of what the poem accomplishes, but perhaps there is selection here. If a group gets through relatively unharmed, they probably can map a number of their decisions back to the poem. Of course, the groups that got slaughtered can point back and say the poem is just another trap/trick.

And they are both right. The module has been around for a long time and large number of groups have had a crack at it. The small number that "breezed" through it get to brag that their lucky choices are "skill" and have the poem to back them up. 

Its really the same thing in the stock market. Given the number of investment managers, there is going to be SOMEONE that got through the 2000s without a negative year. They will claim skill, but it might just a streak of luck that will turn nasty (like flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row).


----------



## GQuail

After another week in the Tomb of Horros, I can report a bit on the earlier comments...

They opened the game with two castings of Commune and asked a wad of questions, more than half about the three-headed gargoyle in Area 11.  (First question was "is it in our best interests to activate the gargoyle": cue many more questions assumign they needed to do some sort of combination of gem-feeding and other actions.)  Even when they got it, they moved the object when it was still invisible and had to scurry around to find the bloody thing.  

Area 15 and the door in the third pit went un-noticed for a fair bit.  Despite Commune confirming the "O" door was the best way to advance they seemed puzzled whent hey reached the lava trap in Area 16 and doubled back to find the chests, test the two previous portals.  (I almost got them into the orange one in the chapel... but testing with rats finally let them realise what it did.)  When they failed, they went back to Area 16 to search for secret exits.  It was only in sheer desperation that they started checking the whole way around the corridor and the pits.  

As soon as they got through the Elf spotted the secret door and they explored the mummy-making room in Area 19... but when they couldn't find the secret door they headed back to the fake crypt in Area 18 and got involved in the fake final battle.

My group's highest level character is a Halfling Thief 12: everyone else is some sort of multi or dual class.  Even if he doesn't have much in the way of HP, hitting the fake Lich's AC of -4 is /tough/.  Similarly, with most of the spellcasters topping out at level 9 and having already burnt a few spells earlier, crossing the spell resistance threshold was a struggle.  This is the only part of the dungeon I notably houseruled, dropping his AC to 0 and letting them through after 8 spell levels just to keep things from getting dull.  Without that, they were only hitting him on 18-20 at best.  (I'd be interesting to compare the pregens in the module and see how their to-hits and magic items will fare against this guy.)

When the cave-in started, they legged it. They'd had the split-second reactoon of the lava corridor earlier - no-one wanted to hesistate here!  They moved at speed, with a few dexterity rolls to see if they stumbled into pits or dropped anything, and then got out as the whole thing collapsed, examining the map they recovered from the Lich's crypt.

I let them pack up their sheets and commit to playing Primetime Adventures the next week before I told them that they'd been had.


----------



## GQuail

amerigoV said:


> I might have to add this back to my list of what the poem accomplishes, but perhaps there is selection here. If a group gets through relatively unharmed, they probably can map a number of their decisions back to the poem. Of course, the groups that got slaughtered can point back and say the poem is just another trap/trick.
> 
> And they are both right. The module has been around for a long time and large number of groups have had a crack at it. The small number that "breezed" through it get to brag that their lucky choices are "skill" and have the poem to back them up.
> 
> Its really the same thing in the stock market. Given the number of investment managers, there is going to be SOMEONE that got through the 2000s without a negative year. They will claim skill, but it might just a streak of luck that will turn nasty (like flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row).




I think this ties in well with the earlier comments about the poem more like a prophecy than a walkthrough.  The poem is vague enough that we've been able to interpret it a number of different ways - and as Bullgrit mentioned, once you've suceeded it's easy to paint your plan as "obvious" when there's often a certain leap of faith involved.

Take the Gargoyle in Room 11 - in my group, several players resisted all urge to interact with it but one player was happy to keep pushing gems in.  They were vindicated in the end but considering how everything else in the tomb works, the party can't be blamed for avoiding the item which initially just crushed 3 gems for no clear reason.  And yet, otherwise there's no clear reason why it would crush gems the dungeon itself contained, and no way to test what feeding them all in does until it's too late.

If it had ended with that gargoygle coming alive and killing the player, then who would have said it was "obvious"?  This isn't a remote possibility since a four armed gargoyle is actually present in the dungeon!  Similarly, people who succeed by virtue of their interpretation of the poem can point to it and insist the clues are all there, but they seem hidden so well not even people who know the answer can see it.


----------



## amerigoV

GQuail said:


> I let them pack up their sheets and commit to playing Primetime Adventures the next week before I told them that they'd been had.




Ha! Stupid players! Be sure to tell them how disappointed you are in their inferior play.


----------



## GQuail

Bullgrit said:


> Really, “VERY possible”? Maybe the one coward of the group, who hangs back and doesn’t actually do anything but follow the others after they’ve done the dangerous trial and error work. I just don’t see how it is even remotely possible . . . unless we have drastically different ideas of what is “hardly a scratch.”




I don't know how you square that up with your earlier comment about "Many of the tricks and traps are not particularly deadly. Some are just annoyances and attrition."

Lots of the traps deal smallish HP, in the region of 1d6.  Most of the monster fights are optional, although admittedly most groups are going to bump into at least one or two.  If level 10-14 characters are only taking a couple of D6 damage then they probably not that worried, especially not the fighters.

Now, it's undeniably possible to take way more damage than that - opening the line of secret doors is an exercise in taking endless amounts of damage unless your players think sharp - but I don't think you need to be "cowardly" to take small damage.  I also don't think it's about being smart, mind - just lucky, picking the quickest path through the dungeon and figuring out the gimmicks to some of the traps quickly.


----------



## Bullgrit

GQuail said:
			
		

> I don't know how you square that up with your earlier comment about "Many of the tricks and traps are not particularly deadly. Some are just annoyances and attrition."



"Not particularly deadly" does not mean "does nothing." There is plenty of minor to moderate damage potential throughout the Tomb. There are also some deadly traps. I'm saying I just don't see how there is a realistic possibility of getting through the whole Tomb with "hardly a scratch."

If you're thinking "hardly a scratch" means ending the adventure with less than 10 damage because the cleric healed you, that is different than my thinking of "hardly a scratch" means taking less than 10 damage total, throughout.

I think, going through the Tomb, *someone* is going to take a good deal of damage, at least, throughout. One PC may be able to get through without taking that damage, by hanging back and letting others do the work. But that's not really a fair judge of the danger in the place.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Given that a PC can operate at full effectiveness with less than max hit points, that healing magic at levels 10 to 14 is fairly easy to come by, and that there is no penalty for stopping to rest in the tomb, I tend to discount the risk posed by direct hit point damage in the ToH.  

Which I guess means that I'm in the camp that thinks "hardly a scratch" means the thief fell in a couple of pits, took 3d6 hits of damage and was forced to pass one or two saves vs. poison. 

The shortest route from Area 3 to Area 18 is this:

1. Avoid the pit traps in Area 3.

2. Activate the Archway at Area 5 and proceed through Area 11 to Area 10.

3. Find the crawlspace behind the black sphere in Area 10 and take it.

4. Find the secret door leading into Area 14.

5. Use a magic ring to access Area 15.

6. Avoid the two pit traps after Area 15.

7. Enter the third pit and find the Secret Door (Area 17.)

IMO, the worst is yet to come.  The only unavoidable risk so far are the pit traps -- any one of which could kill a PC.  Other risks include the Great Green Devil (deadly), the Archway in Area 10 (not deadly, but strips the PC of all gear), the poison gas in Area 14 (not deadly), the exploding altar in Area 14 (will possibly kill PC's with low hit points who muff their saves), and the Archway in Area 14 (gender reassignment and alignment change). 

Of course, this presupposes that the PC's follow the correct path.  Groups who head toward the Tormentor will have to deal with the Gargoyle and the Magic Bolts in Area 9.  Groups who screw up Area 5 have to deal with the pit trap in Area 7.  Groups who detour to Area 13 will probably have one or two combat encounters.

It is possible that a group could get this deep into the Tomb without losing a single hit point, but I think that's extremely unlikely.  On the other hand, I would not be surprised if a group made it this far without suffering a single death.


----------



## Bullgrit

It seems that each of us has a different threshold for what constitutes "hardly a scratch." Funny.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

GQuail said:
			
		

> When the cave-in started, they legged it. They'd had the split-second reactoon of the lava corridor earlier - no-one wanted to hesistate here! They moved at speed, with a few dexterity rolls to see if they stumbled into pits or dropped anything, and then got out as the whole thing collapsed, examining the map they recovered from the Lich's crypt.
> 
> I let them pack up their sheets and commit to playing Primetime Adventures the next week before I told them that they'd been had.



I'm curious: What was the Players' reactions when you told them they'd been fooled. Were they, "Well played, sir," or something negative?

This brings up a question I had never considered before:

Does this illusion make the entire Tomb collapse, or just up to up the stairs to the pit trap? The text says:







			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> A programmed illusion from the pseudo-crypt will give the full effects of a cave-in, and actual dust will billow up the stairs, while bits of stone begin to fall in the east-west tunnel and then the north-south tunnel and stairs reached from the pit. If the party runs out, ask them if they thought it was too hard a dungeon.



I always read it as just collapsing that pseudo-crypt and up the stairs. But reading it closer, now, there are a couple of little phrases that might suggest the whole Tomb:
"if the party runs out"
"If this doesn't make them suspicious enough to take another run through to check things out"

"Runs out"? "Take another run through"?

GQuail, your posts reads like the Players ran all the way out of the Tomb? Is that the way you ran the illusion?

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Just to clarify my thinking of "hardly a scratch"- when my group went thru Return we never had to bother with magical healing until we reached the throne. And that was just to be at our peak expecting a final battle soon. The only time we took damage at all was fighting the gargoyle and the annoying secret door gauntlet.  If we had gone thru the archway instead there would have been less than 20 points (or so) damage amongst the entire party! 

And it wasn't luck (or cowardice)- we were simple careful and methodical. A ring of feather falling and a rope harness meant the thief (my character) never fell in a pit. We opened doors from the side so we never got hit with a spear trap. We assumed anything that could opened might be trapped and dealt with it carefully. The example I gave with the 3 chests was from that adventure, so we never dealt with the asps and simply didn't open the chest that triggered the skeleton- because we knew it was empty. 

Also- the riddle did work as a guide. We checked out the red sphere in the 2nd hall which lead us to the ring. And the black one (night's good color) led to the tomb.  We searched the pits for secret doors because of it. Later, when we found the a false door that WASN'T a spear trap we found the real secret door to go on. We knew we'd need multiple keys (because it was plural) so we searched carefully for them. When we saw the "iron men" later, we knew one must hide a secret door. Only the "trembling hands and what will maul" didn't make much sense at the time. We figured the first had something to do with the shaking room but didn't know what exactly- and we never encountered the juggernaut (what will maul).

Edit- we didn't find the message on the gargoyles collar, so we never dealt with that riddle. We also didn't find the gargoyle statue, so we never had the chance to get our nice gems ground to dust either.


----------



## Stoat

[MENTION=1356]FoxWander[/MENTION]

This was a 2E game, right?  What level were you guys?


----------



## GQuail

Bullgrit said:


> I'm curious: What was the Players' reactions when you told them they'd been fooled. Were they, "Well played, sir," or something negative?




They seems to take it well.  One of them had just that day loaned me a 1989 book by Gary Gygax, [ame="http://www.amazon.co.uk/Master-Game-Gary-Gygax/dp/039951533X"]Master Of The Game[/ame], and realised with a certain humour that he'd read about this very "fake boss" encounter in that book but hadn't realised it was happening when it took place.  

The group as a whole seemed to take the fake crypt as very much in keeping with everything else they'd seen. The dungeon was full of tricks, traps and illusions - when I randomly rolled the scrolls in the crypt it turned up several illusion-type spells which they noted felt appropriate for the dungeon.  A fake final battle and illusory cave-in seemed quite appropriate rather than GM unfairness.  I suppose if I'd asked for some sort of dice roll to allow them a chance to notice the illustory nature while escaping?.... but that's maybe my 3.5 mindset showing.

Another thing to note: they went to Room 19 first so they had already recovered the FIRST KEY.  After the fact, I pointed out they had a key they had found no use for, and that they hadn't super-keen explored Room 19 for secret doors, so perhaps the fact it was a fake wasn't without clues.  (And better clues than that leather bag being intact.   )



Bullgrit said:


> This brings up a question I had never considered before:
> 
> Does this illusion make the entire Tomb collapse, or just up to up the stairs to the pit trap? The text says:I always read it as just collapsing that pseudo-crypt and up the stairs. But reading it closer, now, there are a couple of little phrases that might suggest the whole Tomb:
> "if the party runs out"
> "If this doesn't make them suspicious enough to take another run through to check things out"
> 
> "Runs out"? "Take another run through"?
> 
> GQuail, your posts reads like the Players ran all the way out of the Tomb? Is that the way you ran the illusion?




Yes, my group ran out the whole way, and I played the illusion as being functional throughout the whole of the tomb.   I read Gygax's comments as strongly implying the whole tomb would appear to be collapsing - and indeed, I had the very entrance of the tomb apparently clog up.  

On a re-read I totally see the interpretation that its just the lower level, possibly still leaving the secret door to Area 19 visible.  In that version then even if they beat the fake Lich they may continue to explore and could find the rest of the dugneon... or they may assume they've won and depart. 

I think I prefer the way you suggest, Bullgrit, because that way failure to find the rest of the dungeon feels more like a player failure.  They choose to leave afterwards so the mocking tone of Gary is very slightly more deserved.


----------



## GQuail

Stoat said:


> Given that a PC can operate at full effectiveness with less than max hit points, that healing magic at levels 10 to 14 is fairly easy to come by, and that there is no penalty for stopping to rest in the tomb, I tend to discount the risk posed by direct hit point damage in the ToH.




I suppose this is why save-or-die stuff or weirdness like the sliding lava see-saw have a reputation as "fatal" whereas simple high HP dealing monsters don't.  They weren't as easy to heal in 1st Ed as in 3rd Ed (my cleric player grumbled a bit about not having spontaneous Cure casting the first time) but certainly a level 10 character can get his hands on some cure spells and healing potions without huge problems, and Raise Dead is an option.

Even by Bullgrit's definition that no-one takes 10HP or more through the tomb so far I can still imagine a group theoretically could do that.  It might not be likely, especially depending on their route, but not impossible.  The biggest HP sinks for my group were the gargoyle and the chests - both optional encounters.  It's still more about luck than skill but I can imagine a fortunate group bypassing those and getting to Area 18 without having taken much more than a pit trap fall or two.


----------



## FoxWander

Stoat said:


> [MENTION=1356]FoxWander[/MENTION]
> 
> This was a 2E game, right?  What level were you guys?



Yes, this was 2E.  I actually went and dug up the characters my wife and I ran thru this just a couple of days ago.  We were all in the 13th to 16th level range of the dungeon.  We counted multi-classed as the full levels of their highest class and half the levels of other classes.  So my character, a 10th level bard (jongleur kit)/8th level fighter, was "14th" level.  My wife ran a 13th level mage/5th level fighter.  We also had a fighter and a cleric who were both single classed.  And the fighter had a squire who was lower level than us and some kind of fighter/spellcaster (not sure if mage or cleric).


----------



## PulpCruciFiction

I'm currently running the 3.5e update of ToH, and we're having a blast with it.  Our group isn't really into the super-paranoid, 10-foot poles and test animals style of gaming, so I decided to run this dungeon similar to Gen Con's Tower of Gygax.  We made nine pre-gen characters, then everyone grabs one at random and heads into the dungeon.  When a character dies, he goes to the bottom of the pile, the player grabs a new one, and he pops up with the group somehow.  The death sequences are often hilarious, and the players get the benefits of puzzling their way through the dungeon without everything getting bogged down by searching every five feet for traps.  So far I've got thirteen kills, and the characters are currently in the room with three chests (the snakes just killed the rogue).


----------



## FoxWander

I really liked the 3.5 update of the Tomb- even the extra monsters it added aren't too bad (and they can easily be ignored by purists). The update has much better editing and organization. There's actual boxed text to read instead of trying to parse Gary's stream of consciousness style.  Also attempts are made to give rules justification for many 'DM fiat' type magical effects of the original- such as the many 'magic will not work' here effects.

I think it loses some of the original's gritty feel (everything now has a quantifiable DC so it can become just a series of skill checks) but makes up for it in organization and ease-of-use.


----------



## Bullgrit

Just FYI for whoever cares: I'm on vacation this week. So I won't be participating in this discussion for a while.

Bullgrit


----------



## Freakohollik

FoxWander said:


> I really liked the 3.5 update of the Tomb- even the extra monsters it added aren't too bad (and they can easily be ignored by purists). The update has much better editing and organization. There's actual boxed text to read instead of trying to parse Gary's stream of consciousness style.  Also attempts are made to give rules justification for many 'DM fiat' type magical effects of the original- such as the many 'magic will not work' here effects.
> 
> I think it loses some of the original's gritty feel (everything now has a quantifiable DC so it can become just a series of skill checks) but makes up for it in organization and ease-of-use.




I'm surprised to hear that someone likes the 3.5 update. It's been a while since I've read it, but I remember thinking it that it lost all the feel of the original. Since it changed everything into saves and skill checks, it felt like it was strongly moving the focus to be a challenge for the characters and not the players. That is not in the spirit of the original module at all.


----------



## GQuail

Freakohollik said:


> I'm surprised to hear that someone likes the 3.5 update. It's been a while since I've read it, but I remember thinking it that it lost all the feel of the original. Since it changed everything into saves and skill checks, it felt like it was strongly moving the focus to be a challenge for the characters and not the players. That is not in the spirit of the original module at all.




FoxWander seems to sort of agree with you, but explains what tips the balance for him:



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> I think it loses some of the original's gritty feel (everything now has a quantifiable DC so it can become just a series of skill checks) but makes up for it in organization and ease-of-use.




Certainly, having hit a couple of issues when running the thing which I wouldn't expect to hit in a modern semi-professional adventure, I can appreciate why a lucid writing of the Tomb of Horrors would be worth the skill check DCs for some.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 19.  Laboratory and Mummy Preparation Room*

Note:  The module contains an illustration for this room.  For whatever reason, that illustration does not appear in the WotC gallery that I've been linking to.  A very quick GIS search doesn't pull it up either.  If you can find it (legally) anywhere, please link to it.

Area 19 is a rectangular chamber 60 feet wide and 40 feet long.  A single, obvious hallway leads out to the southwest.  That is the only exit.

The room is cluttered with useless alchemical paraphernalia.  The shelves on the walls are full of jars.  Clay pots and urns are stacked all around.  Linen wrappings, dried herbs, bones, skulls, and similar litter are everywhere.  The PC's also see a large desk, two work benches, and two mummy preparation tables.    

However, the only significant features in the room are three large stone vats.  Each is seven feet wide, four feet deep and full of "murky liquid."  The first contains harmless water.  The second is full of flesh-melting acid.  The third contains a gigantic ochre jelly that, despite its name, is grey in color.

The gimmick here is that the PC's need to find a key that has been split in half and hidden in the room.  One half of the key is at the bottom of the acid-filled vat.  The other half is sitting under the grey/ochre jelly.  The module says that the vats are too big to just dump over, and anybody who reaches in and gropes around has only a 1% cumulative chance of successfully recovering the key.

IMO:  There are two crucial pieces of information that the module does not give: (1) Can the PC's see the half-key at the bottom of Vat #2 and (2) How likely is the jelly in Vat #3 to attack?  

Acererak's riddle says, "These keys and those are most important of all."  The players should probably have it in mind that they need keys.  However, the riddle isn't particularly clear what keys Acererak is talking about, and nothing in the riddle hints about vats, acid, mummies, murky water, laboratories or any of the other trappings found in Area 19.  As far as I can tell, there are no clues in Area 19 itself to look for key.  The players have no particular reason to think that there's a key hidden here, as opposed to anywhere else.  This is particularly true given that the exit to the room is an open hallway.

So, if the players can see the half-key in Vat #2, or if the ochre jelly leaves Vat #3 and exposes the half-key there, they're a hell of a lot more likely to find what they need.  Otherwise, they're likely to just waltz past and leave the FIRST KEY behind.  They won't need it until they get to Area 32, so they'll have a ton of backtracking to do if they miss it the first time.

My guess is that most groups will startle the Ochre Jelly while searching the room and find the half-key after they kill it.  After that, I suspect that they'll fool around with Vat #2 until they find the half-key hidden there.  I don't see much in the way of a riddle or clue here, but I bet most groups still wind up with the FIRST KEY.

It bugs me that the Ochre Jelly is grey.  Why not use a bigass Grey Ooze instead?

Finally, the module notes that all the bric-a-brac in this room exists "to waste time for the players."  Perhaps that made sense when S1 was run as a tournament module.  As I've noted several times already, there is no real penalty to the PC's if they take their time in the Tomb.


----------



## MarkB

Given the "murky liquid" description, I'm guessing no key-part is visible. As to the ochre jelly, even if it does attack, will it leave the vat to do so, or simply attack nearby targets of opportunity? If it dies in the vat, its remains will obscure the key just as effectively as its living form.

Once the players discover there's something to find, I can immediately think of an easy way of dealing with the acid vat. The alchemical paraphenalia must include numerous vessels capable of holding liquid, so these could easily be used to empty the harmless water vat, then form a bucket-chain to scoop the acid from its vat into the water vat (or the jelly vat if it's been vacated).

There's also going to be a fair degree of temptation to bottle up some of that acid for later use. Are there any traps or puzzles coming up that could be short-circuited via the application of strong acid?

EDIT: Just re-read the descriptions of those vats. They're bigger than I realised. That's going to take quite a lot of scooping.


----------



## FoxWander

Stoat said:


> IMO:  There are two crucial pieces of information that the module does not give: (1) Can the PC's see the half-key at the bottom of Vat #2 and (2) How likely is the jelly in Vat #3 to attack?




I think you already answered the first of these- you mentioned the 1% chance to grope and find the key.  I figured if you have to grope around for it that means you can't see it- otherwise, why is there such a slim chance to find it.  As for the ochre jelly attacking, I've no idea.  But if it doesn't attack AND you can't see anything in the bottom of the 2nd vat then this room is fairly pointless as the PC have no way of really knowing there is anything to search for.  As you mentioned, the riddle mentions some important keys but gives no indication where they are- and certainly no hint that one of them is in this room.  Other than the PCs being VERY thorough there's only a very slim chance the PCs will find the key here.  

I recall my group (in Return, not the one I ran for Gary's b-day) only spotted the key parts because we resorted to detect magic to search thru all the junk and happened to notice an aura from inside vats 2 and 3.  The group I ran thru here was just very thorough. 

Going back to the 3.5 update again real quick- you hit it GQuail, the update IS a much better written and organized module but I totally agree with Freak, it has none of the "feel" of the original.  By quantifying everything it becomes just another dungeon crawl solved by mindless dice-rolling.  But you could print out the update and cut out all the trap DCs and such to get  something like the original but easier to run.


----------



## jonesy

The second group I ran through the tomb had a wizard who was turning increasingly paranoid and crazy the farther the adventure progressed. When the player heard the description of the Laboratory he shouted "Mimics! Those tables are mimics!" And then he proceeded to waste the last charges in his Staff of Fireballs just blasting into the room. Almost killed the party rogue, who had to duck out of the other exit. It didn't take much for them to find the keys after there wasn't any clutter or jelly to distract them. The thing I'm still wondering about is if I should have ruled that the firestorm would have blasted the acid too?


----------



## MarkB

jonesy said:


> The thing I'm still wondering about is if I should have ruled that the firestorm would have blasted the acid too?




Not Gygaxian enough. It should boil the acid, causing it to geyser forth like a volcano and simultaneously emit a cloud of acidic fumes, requiring a save vs. spells to not have your lungs melted.


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 19. Laboratory and Mummy Preparation Room*





			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> Although there is only 1 item of eventual use within this totally plain and cluttered place, the volume of items within it is calculated to waste time for the players. All of the walls are lined with shelves…



There was a time in my early D&D days, when I was young and had lots and lots of time to waste, that presiding over a group of Players verbally searching everything in a cluttered room was not boring. It was even fun, like in the Wizard’s Workroom in _In Search of the Unknown_. But that time passed pretty quickly. And nowadays, my game time is very, very valuable. Too valuable to comfortably sit at the table listening to Players trying to figure out everything in a cluttered room.

For my sanity, as a DM, I would hope that the Players going through the Tomb would either realize or guess that the only things they need to investigate are things that are dangerous. Find something that hurts you, or could hurt you, and just ignore all the harmless and useless incidentals scattered about.

I love “dungeon dressing” to keep a setting from being boring stone room after stone room. But I don’t love dungeon dressing as a time sink to make dungeon exploration hours of boring investigative description.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Note: The module contains an illustration for this room. For whatever reason, that illustration does not appear in the WotC gallery that I've been linking to. A very quick GIS search doesn't pull it up either. If you can find it (legally) anywhere, please link to it.



An interesting thing about the illustration: The text says, “All of the walls are lined with shelves…”, but the illustration shows only a single spice rack-sized box, (with 3 shelves), on one broad, empty wall. The illustration doesn’t show a “volume of items,” and doesn’t look cluttered at all.

Other than the potential for wasting a lot of game time, the core “puzzle” here isn’t terrible. It’s a monster challenge and an environmental hazard to be dealt with. And the designer hasn’t deigned that there’s only one way to solve the issues. In fact, no way is given in the text to solve the issues – it’s totally up to Player ingenuity and DM ruling. The Players can come up with a solution using spells or just using destructive physical force.

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> Although there is only 1 item of eventual use within this totally plain and cluttered place, the volume of items within *it is calculated to waste time for the players*. All of the walls are lined with shelves…



This part never made sense to me.  It's effectively saying "this part is meant to annoy your players."  

There's no "in game" reason to waste their time.  The module specifically says in the beginning notes that there are no wandering monsters within or even near the tomb.  Parties can camp out for as long as they like - in fact, any days between gaming sessions are specifically meant to represent days spent just hanging out in the Tomb on a 1-for-1 basis, to allow plenty of natural recovery time.  Barring some outside influence, there is no time crunch or deadline.  So if the character's have all the time in the world, what's the point of wasting the PLAYER'S time?  Annoying your player's just for the heck of it seems kind of pointless and silly.


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

FoxWander said:


> This part never made sense to me.  It's effectively saying "this part is meant to annoy your players."
> 
> There's no "in game" reason to waste their time.  The module specifically says in the beginning notes that there are no wandering monsters within or even near the tomb.  Parties can camp out for as long as they like - in fact, any days between gaming sessions are specifically meant to represent days spent just hanging out in the Tomb on a 1-for-1 basis, to allow plenty of natural recovery time.  Barring some outside influence, there is no time crunch or deadline.  So if the character's have all the time in the world, what's the point of wasting the PLAYER'S time?  Annoying your player's just for the heck of it seems kind of pointless and silly.




This is a tournament-ism. When you play a module in a tournament you have a limited period of time to complete it.


----------



## FoxWander

Ultimatecalibur said:


> This is a tournament-ism. When you play a module in a tournament you have a limited period of time to complete it.



Well that explains much of the Player-vs-DM feel of the Tomb compared to other modules. Now I'm curious to look up the old tournament rules to figure out how that would have worked. Anybody got a link to something like that?


----------



## Stoat

*Area 20. Huge Pit Filled With 200 Spikes*

Note: Once again, the relevant illustration is missing from the online  gallery.  

An open hallway leaves Area 19, runs east a little way, drops down a long flight of stairs and then turns back to the west.  About twenty feet along the PC's hit Area 20.

Area 20 is an open pit twenty feet long, ten feet wide and ten feet deep.  As it says on the tin, there are hundreds and hundreds of spikes at the bottom.  Because the pit is so big, the module assumes the PC's will climb down inside it, walk across the bottom, and then climb up the other side.  

[Nelson Munz] Ha, Ha! [/Nelson Munz]

Any "footstep" on the last three feet of the eastern part of the pit will cause a volley of spikes to shoot upwards.  Anybody in the line of fire is hit by 1d4+1 spikes, and each spike causes 1d6 points of damage.  The spikes in the pit are magically regenerated.

IMO:  Blah.  It's a big pit of spikes, and it does as much as 5d6 points of damage to PC's who get caught in it.  Area 20 is not a deathtrap.  AFAICT, it is not mentioned in Acererak's riddle and there are no evident clues or hints in the module related to it.  

Area 20 is filler.


----------



## FoxWander

Obvious trap is obvious! I don't know any party that just walked across this thing. Most seem to think either the floor will fall away, revealing the "spikes" to be spear-tips, or that the far landing is the trap (in case you try to jump). At any rate, they always construct some kind of rope-and-piton bridge to get everyone across.


----------



## MoxieFu

Bullgrit said:


> [snip]
> 
> I love “dungeon dressing” to keep a setting from being boring stone room after stone room. But I don’t love dungeon dressing as a time sink to make dungeon exploration hours of boring investigative description.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Bullgrit




I love Dungeon Dressing! I have had players get so freaked out and paranoid over a random piece of it. They are dead certain that somehow that little piece of detail is deadly and utterly significant. 

I love it!


----------



## amerigoV

On room 19 - I like the room as it themeatically fits in with the Tomb - a place of preparation. I am not sure it fits exactly where its placed in the tomb itself -- it probably would be better to be before the fake lich encounter. Heck, that would be a good place to put the "mace of disruption"


Thinking about it, come to place A, which is the Temple (worship). Then B  is to do final prep for "burial". If things go bad, here is something to fix things ("down Mummy!" Mace of Disruption). Then you come to Place C, which is the fake tomb. In between are death traps. 

That holds together much better in my mind as the Temple and the Lab reinforce the first fake tomb. As written, I guess it can indicate that "hey, you are on the path to the REAL tomb."


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 20. Huge Pit Filled With 200 Spikes*



To be thorough, I guess I should comment on every numbered area, but really, this one isn't much to comment on.



			
				FoxWander said:
			
		

> Obvious trap is obvious!



This.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Area 20 is filler.



Appropriate term, "filler." If the PCs use old-fashioned force to break the acid-filled vat, all the acid will flow out of the room, down the stairs, and into this pit.

Bullgrit


----------



## Squire James

Seeing this thread fall to the second page, I hope this thread actually makes it to the final room (unlike many of the adventurers in the Tomb itself)... and I dislike putting the word "bump" as the sole word of a post.  Even if that would convey the main point.


----------



## Hussar

Funny thing is, for some reason in my subscribed list, this is the only thread that lists the pages backwards.


----------



## FoxWander

amerigoV said:


> On room 19 - I like the room as it themeatically fits in with the Tomb - a place of preparation. I am not sure it fits exactly where its placed in the tomb itself -- it probably would be better to be before the fake lich encounter. Heck, that would be a good place to put the "mace of disruption"
> 
> 
> Thinking about it, come to place A, which is the Temple (worship). Then B  is to do final prep for "burial". If things go bad, here is something to fix things ("down Mummy!" Mace of Disruption). Then you come to Place C, which is the fake tomb. In between are death traps.
> 
> That holds together much better in my mind as the Temple and the Lab reinforce the first fake tomb. As written, I guess it can indicate that "hey, you are on the path to the REAL tomb."



Yeah, that would sell the fake lich room MUCH better.  In fact, I'd put the lich-killing mace in the lab/mummy prep room next to some fake research notes about trying to destroy it- because, why else would any kind of intelligent undead have one of those things in his tomb. I'd also put it with some fake (probably cursed) treasure and a broken holy symbol as if the whole lot had come off a dead priest/paladin who had raided awhile ago.

It'd be interesting to do a separate thread about how to make a more realistic (ie- less random) "Tomb of Horrors" type dungeon. I've created a truly killer dungeon before (ie- one not intended to allow for player survival at all) but it's actually for a vampire NPC (former PC) of mine.  It was created to protect his coffin in the unlikely event that he actually got reduced to gaseous form (he's ridiculously powerful- from my munchkinny days first playing D&D). It's a last line of defense kind of thing that's mainly supposed to delay or kill a party of ANY level long enough for him to reform. And then he can deal with the threat on his home turf (where he's even more powerful) and they party is likely very weakened by the dungeon.  Actually I guess that's a whole other thread idea- why are dungeons survivable AT ALL since most of them should logically be literal death traps.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 21. The Agitated Chamber*

Past Area 20, the hallway runs for 100 feet and dead ends.  There's a secret door on the north wall of the hall about 60 feet along that leads to Area 21.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic21.jpg

Area 21 is a 30 foot square room full of junk.  Rotted sofas, throne-like chairs, chipped vases, dented urns, small tables, braziers -- all jumbled up everywhere.  There are 6 locked trunks and 24 locked coffers "amidst the general havoc."  "Rather plain" tapestries hang on the east and west walls (in the illustration, they're decorated with little fishies).  A door is visible in the northeast corner of the room.

First.  The door to the northeast is a fake.  

Second.  All of the trunks are empty.  The coffers mostly hold angry, poisonous snakes.  (50% of the coffers hold asps.  A third of the coffers hold 8d10 platinum pieces. One out of six coffers holds some low value gems.)

Third.  The floor.  When the PC's step on the floor, they "set a mechanism into motion."  After that, there's a 50% chance each round that the floor of the room will "jump and buck up and down violently."  Anybody standing on the agitated floor has a 1 in 3 chance of falling down and taking a point of damage.

Fourth.  Those "rather plain tapestries" with the fishies on them are actually "specially anti-magic treated creations of green slime and brown mold."  If the tapestries are torn, they turn into green slime and cover everybody within 10 feet of them.  Being doused in green slime destroys you.  You turn into slime yourself and can't come back.  Luckily, fire kills green slime!  Unluckily, burning the tapestries turns them into brown mold, which eats fire and radiates deadly cold.  The mold will drain 4d8 hit points from anybody who gets within five feet of it.  The module says "it gets worse from there," and I dimly remember that brown mold maybe does more and more damage as it grows, but neither the module nor the Monster Manual really says that.

The PC's can touch the tapestries without fear.  But if somebody is holding a tapestry when the floor goes berserk, there's a 75% chance the tapestry will tear and unleash slimeaggedon.

Fifth.  The way out is a secret door behind the tapestry on the west wall.

IMO:  Not counting spiked pits, this is the first insta-kill deathtrap that the PC's must negotiate.  It can't be bypassed or ignored. 

So what clues or hints do we have to help get past the Agitated Chamber?  AFAICT, somewhere between none and almost none.  Acererak's riddle says "beware of trembling hands ."  Is that a reference to Area 21?  If so, it is a piss-poor clue.  First, the riddle gives no clue to connect "trembling hands" with anything the PC's see when they get to Area 21.  It makes no reference to tapestries or fishies or rotted sofas or anything else.  Second, calling the threat in Area 21 "trembling hands" is a stretch.  The problem isn't that the PC's hands will tremble.  It's that the ground will go buck wild and make them accidentally tear the magic tapestries.  It's more important here for the PC's to have steady footing than steady hands.

Nor do I see any warnings or clues in the room itself.  It's full of junk just like Area 19, and there's nothing specifically ominous about the junk.  I've been kidding about fishies, but the module specifically says that the tapestries depict "weed-grown rocks and green and gold tan scenes of undersea life," which isn't much of a warning that they might turn you to goo.

Further, the actual description of how the floor works is opaque.  The module says that each round the PC's remain in the place, the DM should roll a d6.  If an odd number comes up, "on the next turn the floor of the room will jump and buck up and down."  "Turn" is a term of art in 1E that means 10 minutes, right?  So does that mean the PC's have 10 minutes to explore before the place goes nuts?  I don't think so, but I'm not 100% certain.  And once the floor starts rocking, how long does it keep going?  The module is silent.

Finally, determining whether or not a PC is holding onto the tapestry when the earthquake sets in is probably going to take a fair amount of DM discretion.  "I inspect the tapestry."  Am I touching it?  Am I holding it?  Let's fight about it!


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> So what clues or hints do we have to help get past the Agitated Chamber?  AFAICT, somewhere between none and almost none.



I'd say less than none. If they use the riddle for this it's only going fool them into thinking there's something else going on, like actual invisible hands moving the room.



> "Turn" is a term of art in 1E that means 10 minutes, right?  So does that mean the PC's have 10 minutes to explore before the place goes nuts?  I don't think so, but I'm not 100% certain.  And once the floor starts rocking, how long does it keep going?  The module is silent.



Tournament module, remember? Could be just a mechanism for speeding up the proceedings  if the DM so chooses.



Stoat said:


> Finally, determining whether or not a PC is holding onto the tapestry when the earthquake sets in is probably going to take a fair amount of DM discretion.  "I inspect the tapestry."  Am I touching it?  Am I holding it?  Let's fight about it!



I think it's more about a PC reacting to the floor movement, like what the paranoid wizard did: "I grab the tapestry and hang on." Bye, bye, wiz. Right before the rest lucked into the secret door too.


----------



## FoxWander

IMO, this room is one reason people call the Tomb a killer dungeon. There's enough random crap to keep the party's attention to guarantee they'll stick around long enough to either trigger the trap or wind up with a room full of deadly snakes.  If they find the way out there's a 37.5% chance (50% trap x 75% tapestry) whoever does it (along with anyone unlucky enough to be standing near them) will be instantly dead leaving a sea of green slime blocking the exit,  Finally, fire is the most common way to deal with both green slime AND masses of snakes, virtually guaranteeing the room will be fireballed triggering the brown mold transformation.  Brown mold grows "2, 4, or 8 times its area from the heat fed to it."  Even just a torch within 5' can cause it to grow- so if any of the random junk in the room caught on fire from the fireball then the room is likely to be literally filled with brown mold fairly fast.

This whole room is just a show-stopper waiting to happen.  And the "trembling hands" bit tells you nothing even if you manage to suss out that it's talking about this room.  And for the final bit of "WTF!"- the room barely makes any sense within the setting of the Tomb.  Seriously- a wrecked Ikea showroom and sea-life tapestries?!  What do Finding Nemo and Little Mermaid posters have to do with the funeral setting?


----------



## jonesy

FoxWander said:


> What do Finding Nemo and Little Mermaid posters have to do with the funeral setting?



A really vague water motif? As in, please don't use fire here.

Sleeping with the fishies?

Acererak went on a vacation somewhere nice and oceany, and liked the scenery?


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 21. The Agitated Chamber*



This room is another example of why I think the Tomb of Horrors is just too clever by half. The gimmick here is just overly complicated, and like every other area, is presented in a great, long wall of text.









> "specially anti-magic treated creations of green slime and brown mold."



If the PCs tear the tapestries, the tapestries turn to green slime. If they burn the tapestries, the tapestries turn to brown mold. If the PCs don't intentionally tear or burn the tapestries, the vibrating floor gimmick will probably force a tear. It's like the designer was just trying so hard to make this a deadly room that things just got ridiculous.

I have no real idea how Gygax came up with the idea for this trap, but my imagination comes up with this:

Playtest 1: PCs walk in, tear away tapestries to search the walls.
Edit 1: DM makes tapestries turn to green slime if torn.
Playtest 2: PCs don't tear down tapestries, choosing, instead to burn them away.
Edit 2: DM makes tapestries turn to brown mold if burned.
Playtest 3: PCs don't destroy the tapestries, choosing, instead, to just move them aside.
Edit 3: DM adds the bouncing floor to force an accidental tearing of the tapestries.
Playtest 4: PCs use 10' poles to cautiously and carefully move tapestries.
The DM is satisfied that the PCs are sufficiently paranoid and scared of the room.

Considering how easy it should be for the PCs to just slide the tapestries out of the way to search the walls, it seems that this trap will only catch PCs who are intentionally destructive in their searches.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

Info:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/76849-gary-gygax-q-part-vi-3.html#post1399880


			
				schnee said:
			
		

> I guess they're traps for players who lose sight of their intended goal - looting instead of trying to find and slay the great evil.





			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> The room where the movement will rip the tapestries if being handled, cause them to revert to their actual material, green slime, is exactly as you discerned, a trap for greedy PCs who have lost sight of their mission.




Edit: I wrote a comment on this information, but I just discovered that the rest of my post didn't transfer in my copy/paste. So...

Gygax's confirmation on this idea makes no sense. I don't see how this is a trap for greedy PCs -- they have to move the tapestry to search the wall to find the secret door to move on in the Tomb. The tapestries are not noted as valuable, so I don't see how greed is an issue.

Besides, the module's introductory text says that the PCs goal is to find the treasure hidden in the Tomb, and that the demi-lich is undefeatble. It would seem that their mission *is* looting, and not to slay a great evil.

So, like jonesy says in the XP tag, Huh?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Considering how easy it should be for the PCs to just slide the tapestries out of the way to search the walls, it seems that this trap will only catch PCs who are intentionally destructive in their searches.




I think the idea is that somebody will be holding on to the tapestry just as the floor starts jumping.  That seems a little unlikely to me, but I guess a lot would depend on how the players are describing their actions and how much of rat bastard the DM is being.

Jonesy presents another scenario where the PC's could get into trouble.  The floor starts up, and somebody grabs the tapestry to keep their feet.

The timing still bothers me.  How long do the PC's have before the agitated floor starts acting up?    The DM rolls a d6 every round.  If the result is odd, the floor starts agitating "on the next turn."  Do the PC's have at least 10 minutes to search around?  I'm inclined to think not, but I'm hung up on the word "turn."  The longer the players have to search, the more likely they are to just find the secret door and move on.

And how long does the floor keep going?  If it stops, the players have a little time to search safely.  If it does not stop, then it's a lot harder to safely move the tapestries.  

Finally, it occurs to me that the tapestries are green.  The players should shun green.  So, kind of a hint that the tapestries are dangerous.


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> The timing still bothers me.  How long do the PC's have before the agitated floor starts acting up?    The DM rolls a d6 every round.  If the result is odd, the floor starts agitating "on the next turn."  Do the PC's have at least 10 minutes to search around?  I'm inclined to think not, but I'm hung up on the word "turn."  The longer the players have to search, the more likely they are to just find the secret door and move on.



Hmm. If the DM gets a result that will make the room act up 'next turn', does he still roll for a result that next turn when it is already doing it? Would it be possible (probability allowing) for the room to start shaking and then never stop?


----------



## Zombie Toast

I just ran my party through the Tomb of Horrors yesterday (I used a version for the Pathfinder rules that I updated myself from the 2e version) and it broke them like a twig. Lost one character right away to the sliding wall, another jumped through the gargoyle's mouth, a third died from poison spikes in a pit trap. Finally one character fell into two pit traps in a row, ran through the archway of mists, was teleported to the prison, escaped, ran through the archway without the mists this time, ended up in the room of spheres, ran through that arch (losing all his stuff) and then running into the gargoyle mouth. 

It was a lot of fun but some people where close to insanity by that point and if we went any further they might have started burning effigies of Gary Gygax. Some groups were not cut out to handle the Tomb. 

It has inspired me to try and create a sci-fi version of the tomb though, basically a fusion of the Tomb of Horrors and Portal.


----------



## GQuail

Zombie Toast said:


> It has inspired me to try and create a sci-fi version of the tomb though, basically a fusion of the Tomb of Horrors and Portal.




Off the top of my head, it might suit Traveller best for two reasons - because it has a certain old-school lineage, like AD&D, which might make it feel a better fit, and also because the sandbox nature of Traveller (like AD&D) helps play to this mission type.  If it's to be a sort of trap for greedy PCs who could quit anytime they want, it needs a campaign stucture in which that's an option for the PCs; A direct port of Portal, though a good inspiration, would see the group trapped within the "dungeon" and forced to fight their way out, in which case the deathtraps somehow feel more arbitrary.

I wonder how much of the fluff you can keep intact, how many traps could get a direct port with enough tweaks to seem new?   The word "demicyborg" appeals...


----------



## amerigoV

Zombie Toast said:


> I just ran my party through the Tomb of Horrors yesterday (I used a version for the Pathfinder rules that I updated myself from the 2e version) and it broke them like a twig.
> ...
> 
> It was a lot of fun but some people where close to insanity by that point and if we went any further they might have started burning effigies of Gary Gygax. Some groups were not cut out to handle the Tomb.




Ha! Tell them next week that you playing Shoots and Ladders, something they might be able to handle.


----------



## Bullgrit

I added to post #305, above.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

[MENTION=31216]Bullgrit[/MENTION].  I'm also somewhat confused by Gygax's response.  As you note, the PC's have to interact with the tapestries in order to move forward, and the tapestries are the most dangerous part of the room.

On the other hand, the various coffers in the room are likely to contain poisonous snakes.  I can see an argument that those are a trap for greedy PC's.  Of course, some of the coffers also contain treasure, and I don't have enough feel for 1E to gauge whether the risk of fighting snakes is worth the reward of some platinum and low-value gems. 

And, if the intent was to give the PC's a full turn to explore the room before the floor explodes, I can see Gygax's point.  10 minutes is plenty of time for the PC's to learn that the obvious way out is false and to check behind the tapestries for secret doors.  Goofing around with the empty boxes and crates increases the chances that the floor goes off and makes finding the secret door much riskier.


----------



## Zombie Toast

GQuail said:


> Off the top of my head, it might suit Traveller best for two reasons - because it has a certain old-school lineage, like AD&D, which might make it feel a better fit, and also because the sandbox nature of Traveller (like AD&D) helps play to this mission type.  If it's to be a sort of trap for greedy PCs who could quit anytime they want, it needs a campaign stucture in which that's an option for the PCs; A direct port of Portal, though a good inspiration, would see the group trapped within the "dungeon" and forced to fight their way out, in which case the deathtraps somehow feel more arbitrary.
> 
> I wonder how much of the fluff you can keep intact, how many traps could get a direct port with enough tweaks to seem new?   The word "demicyborg" appeals...




I could see several methods working from the portal-style "you've got to get out alive" to a greed-based "ultimate reality show of death!". I may just leave the motivation to the GM. I may even steal an idea from Paranoia and have clone replacements of the PCs pop in when they die (up to a certain limit) to allow a small group to handle the tomb without having to control multiple characters at once.


----------



## jonesy

It took me a while to figure out what it was that was bugging me about Gary's response, but I think I finally got it.

The Tomb is like an Indiana Jones/Tombraider location. The characters enter willingly looking for something.

The shaky room is like a section from the movie Cube. The moment the shaking starts the only thing the PC's will want is out.

It's a mismatch.

Edit:

Even more than that, it seems to me that the Tomb encourages careful exploration and investigation.

The shaky room discourages it in every way it possibly can. Slime, mold, snakes, the whole room trying to shake you to death.

All you'd need to add is spikes on the ceiling that fall, and traps in the floor into acid pits, and the party would think they were in Grimtooth's Dungeon of Doom.


----------



## FoxWander

Stoat said:


> [MENTION=31216]Bullgrit[/MENTION]...
> 
> And, if the intent was to give the PC's a full turn to explore the room before the floor explodes, I can see Gygax's point.  10 minutes is plenty of time for the PC's to learn that the obvious way out is false and to check behind the tapestries for secret doors.  Goofing around with the empty boxes and crates increases the chances that the floor goes off and makes finding the secret door much riskier.



I think this must be it- Gary's response above only makes sense if it works this way.  As you said, 10 minutes is plenty of time to search, find the real way out, and move on.  If they stick around to loot then things can quickly go bad.  They'll have snakes to deal with and the shaking floor meaning their very likely to wind up with one of the tapestry traps going off.  In fact, since fire is the most common way to deal with green slime, there's a good chance they'll trigger both- and soon have a room full of mold or slime!

Also- good call about the tapestries being green before.  That's at least another (albeit still as vague as "trembling hands") warning about the room.


----------



## Bullgrit

Don't forget the PCs have to find all the keys, too. The previous room had two parts of a key hidden in the bottoms of a vat of acid and a vat of ooze. So the PCs *have* to search everything and everywhere. Just finding the next door and moving on will only lead to a dead end, (maybe literally), from which they will have to backtrack and search what they missed in previous areas. How can the PCs know they don't need to search all the trunks and coffers in the agitated chamber for another key?

It makes no sense to punish PCs for "looting" when the whole stated purpose to go into, and the only way through the Tomb, is to "loot" everything for the various keys.

Remember the gems from the gargoyle that are the keys to the gem of seeing?

Remember the ring in the chest that is the key to moving beyond the chapel?

This isn't a case of "stay on target" </Gold Five> else you'll fall for a trap. *Everything* here is trapped, even the keys and the way forward. Even red herrings. Even things that aren't keys or red herrings. You *have* to set off and/or go through some traps just to move forward.

The idea that traps are punishments for looters or bad players is incongruent with the actual Tomb text. In the Tomb of Horrors, traps aren't punishments or hints; they're dungeon dressing.

Bullgrit


----------



## Hussar

Just a thought about having 10 minutes to search - IIRC, in 1e doesn't searching once always take a turn or 10 minutes?  So, it's not actually that much time to search for anything.


----------



## Bullgrit

AD&D1 Dungeon Master's Guide, page 97:




1 round = 1 minute
1 turn = 10 minutes

Bullgrit


----------



## Hussar

Heh, shows what happens when you go by what people say on the Internet.  And, I gotta say, WOW, that last paragraph is some of the absolute freaking worst DMing advice I've ever read.


----------



## Bullgrit

Going back and reading a couple pages back in this thread, I remembered I wanted to point this out:

In area 1, someone earlier in this thread said, "The cobwebs should be burned away as good dungeon hygeine, and this will allow inspection of the ceiling to get the second clue."

Such comments seem logical and good common sense in a situation where that is the correct answer to the trick/trap. But when that same logic and good common sense is applied to other tricks/traps in the Tomb, Bad Things happen.

In area 18, regular fire won't work, so using magical fire is required to burn away the webs, to move forward.

In area 21, regular fire causes Bad to happen, and using magical fire causes Very Bad to happen, and could spell doom for a PC or a party.

I think this kind of thing is part of why some folks say the Tomb is not fair, and that it is arbitrary. What is the solution for the trap in one instance is the trigger for the trap in another. And there doesn't seem to be a pattern to it that Players could figure out.

Spiked-pit traps are to be avoided, except for the one that contains the door to continue in the Tomb.

Rocks collapsing a tunnel in one area are real and the PCs should go away and find another way. Rocks collapsing in a tunnel in another area are not real, (though they are described to the Players as real), and the PCs should go back in that same area and find the way.

Containers in one area should be searched because they contain keys to move forward in the Tomb. Containers in another area should be ignored because they are just time wasting traps meant to punish "looters."

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Good points, Bullgrit. Maybe THIS is the best way to handle the Tomb?!


----------



## Hussar

FoxWander said:


> Good points, Bullgrit. Maybe THIS is the best way to handle the Tomb?!




While I realize that this is a joke, there's a fair degree of truth here.  You're much better off simply not engaging with the module at all.  There are a number of things you can do to bypass virtually the entire module if you start getting really creative - passwall, digging, 2nd Edition Solipsism spells, that sort of thing.

Heck wasn't one of the early success stories basically using mooks as mine detectors?


----------



## Stoat

Ugh, I have bad memories of the Solipsism spell.

Keep in mind that the 14th level pregen Cleric can cast _Find the Path_, _True Seeing_, and _Detect Traps._  Those three spells alone will cut out a lot of the risk inherent in exploring the Tomb.


----------



## jonesy

Yeah, solipsism is a DM's worst nightmare, and a players wet dream. Sometimes literally.


----------



## FoxWander

Stoat said:


> Keep in mind that the 14th level pregen Cleric can cast _Find the Path_, _True Seeing_, and _Detect Traps._  Those three spells alone will cut out a lot of the risk inherent in exploring the Tomb.




When we went thru Return we had an intelligent item that could detect traps- only large ones though, like the pits and the quaking room.  But still, it made the Tomb a cakewalk.  Between liberal use of _Unseen Servant_ or a Ring of Telekinesis to open stuff and my thief being immune to poison and having a Ring of Regeneration- we had absolutely no problems with the Tomb.  No dynamite and shovel techniques needed.


----------



## Freakohollik

Bullgrit's posting of some of the secret doors rules made me realize that I don't really know what 1E's rules for secret door detection are. Can someone refresh me on how secret doors are found in 1E? Things like what the probabilities of finding them are, what classes can do it, and how often you roll.

I'd call everything from fake Acerak until the pillared hall the "Secret Doors" section of the adventure. Compared to the rest of the adventure, this section is mostly uninspiring.

When I ran this adventure, I allowed all secret doors to be found 100% when a player declared he wanted to search. I know this way off from 1E RAW, but this part absolutely requires you to find a number of secret doors. The tomb is dangerous enough that the party wasn't searching every square inch.


----------



## Stoat

IIRC, there are no hard and fast rules.  I believe the relevant section is page 97 of the 1E DMG.  In general, the player rolls a die to search for secret doors.  However, the DM has discretion to determine (a) what size die to roll, and (b) what target the player needs to roll on the die.  The DMG also says it's acceptable for the DM to dispense with the die roll and make the players figure things out on their own.

I think the default is that non-elves find secret doors if they roll a 1 on a d6.  But I'm not sure.


----------



## FoxWander

Stoat said:


> IIRC, there are no hard and fast rules.  I believe the relevant section is page 97 of the 1E DMG.  In general, the player rolls a die to search for secret doors.  However, the DM has discretion to determine (a) what size die to roll, and (b) what target the player needs to roll on the die.  The DMG also says it's acceptable for the DM to dispense with the die roll and make the players figure things out on their own.
> 
> I think the default is that non-elves find secret doors if they roll a 1 on a d6.  But I'm not sure.



That's pretty much it. It breaks down like this...

Non-elf actively searching - 1 in 6 chance
elf w/in 10' of secret/concealed door - 1 in 6
elf actively searching, secret doors - 2 in 6
elf actively searching, concealed door - 3 in 6
And the DM has the option of bumping it up to a d8 or d10 for harder to find doors.


----------



## Freakohollik

FoxWander said:


> That's pretty much it. It breaks down like this...
> 
> Non-elf actively searching - 1 in 6 chance
> elf w/in 10' of secret/concealed door - 1 in 6
> elf actively searching, secret doors - 2 in 6
> elf actively searching, concealed door - 3 in 6
> And the DM has the option of bumping it up to a d8 or d10 for harder to find doors.




Interesting. Those are not good odds. If the party wants to get through this area of the dungeon without using spells to find the secret doors, they're basically going to have to do the 1E equivalent of taking 20 on search checks.

What about thieves? Do they roll on their special table for this? How would the pregen thieves fare (assuming there is a pregen thief)?


----------



## Hussar

As I recall, thieves have no special ability to find secret doors.  One of those oddities.


----------



## Flatus Maximus

Freakohollik said:


> Interesting. Those are not good odds. If the party wants to get through this area of the dungeon without using spells to find the secret doors, they're basically going to have to do the 1E equivalent of taking 20 on search checks.




It's not as bad as it seems. If a party of 6 non-elf PCs are actively searching, then the probability of _not_ finding a secret door is (5/6)^6, or about 1/3. Not absolute certainty, for sure, but the odds are in favor of the party finding the door. Throw in an elf or two and the odds get better.


----------



## Kurtomatic

Stoat said:


> [MENTION=31216]Bullgrit[/MENTION].I'm also somewhat confused by Gygax's response.  As you note, the PC's have to interact with the tapestries in order to move forward, and the tapestries are the most dangerous part of the room.




In regards to Gary's comment, you need to constantly remind yourself of the tournament meta-game. Let's look at the quote again:



			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> The room where the movement will rip the tapestries if being handled, cause them to revert to their actual material, green slime, is exactly as you discerned, a trap for greedy PCs who have lost sight of their mission.



As an experienced tourney DM, I can tell you that the "mission" of virtually every tournament adventure is to _finish_. Traditional scoring is weighted for progress and survival. 'Looting' this tomb is mostly color text; you might get bonus points for collected GP value, but they will pale against the score you'll get for finishing alive. You're competing with other groups at this event (we're at a con, remember?), and jacking around with a transitive room like this is asking for punishment.

I think this supports your general thesis about the intent of the trap; give them 1 round/turn to make reasonable searches and move on. After that, the gloves come off. That's not exactly what the text says, but its a practical interpretation for a tourney.


----------



## Freakohollik

Flatus Maximus said:


> It's not as bad as it seems. If a party of 6 non-elf PCs are actively searching, then the probability of _not_ finding a secret door is (5/6)^6, or about 1/3. Not absolute certainty, for sure, but the odds are in favor of the party finding the door. Throw in an elf or two and the odds get better.




So a party of 6, actively searching has a 2/3 chance? I don't find this reassuring considering the sheer number of secret doors that must be found. Especially important at area 23 where if the door is not found, the party is dead. But that's a getting ahead of ourselves.


----------



## Flatus Maximus

Freakohollik said:


> So a party of 6, actively searching has a 2/3 chance? I don't find this reassuring considering the sheer number of secret doors that must be found. Especially important at area 23 where if the door is not found, the party is dead. But that's a getting ahead of ourselves.




OK, replace one non-elf PC with an elf. The probability of _not_ finding a secret door is: (5/6)*(4/6)*(5/6)^5, approximately 0.22. (The first two factors are the elf getting a roll just for being within 10' and a search.) If the door is concealed (not secret), the probability drops to: (5/6)*(3/6)*(5/6)^5, approximately 0.17.

This is probably a one-turn worst-case scenario, since the party might be larger (more PCs and/or hirelings), have more elves, or spend more time searching.


----------



## Hussar

Now this brings up a couple of interesting points.  Even with an elf, we're still looking at failing 1 in 5 to find a secret door.  If that happens to be a critical secret door, the party is largely pooched.

Secondly though, can a group re-search the same area?  Are retries allowed in 1e?  I know for a number of things they aren't - such as thieves skills.  I know we played at the time that retries were not allowed for most things.  I don't remember if secret doors was one of those.


----------



## Bullgrit

> As an experienced tourney DM, I can tell you that the "mission" of virtually every tournament adventure is to finish. Traditional scoring is weighted for progress and survival. 'Looting' this tomb is mostly color text; you might get bonus points for collected GP value, but they will pale against the score you'll get for finishing alive. You're competing with other groups at this event (we're at a con, remember?), and jacking around with a transitive room like this is asking for punishment.
> 
> I think this supports your general thesis about the intent of the trap; give them 1 round/turn to make reasonable searches and move on. After that, the gloves come off. That's not exactly what the text says, but its a practical interpretation for a tourney.



Searching, ("looting"), the tomb is not color text, it is *required*. The PCs have to search for secret doors, for traps, for keys, for clues in every area. The PCs can have no intention of taking treasure at all, and they still have to search and examine and explore everything.

They CANNOT just move on forward and ignore everything else. In the previous room, they see the exit way immediately, and they could just march on out. But then they miss the two parts of the first key.

Saying that something in the Tomb is a punishment for wasting time searching things is absurd. The Tomb requires taking the time to search everything. If the PCs don't take time to search everything, and they miss keys and such, and can't move forward, then people would say, "Well you shouldn't just rush through the Tomb."



> You're competing with other groups at this event (we're at a con, remember?), and jacking around with a transitive room like this is asking for punishment.



The Players don't know what is a transitive room until they search. Groups in the tournament who get stuck at some point because they missed a key or clue earlier will lose, while those who took the time to search everything may get through and win.

Basically, the argument seems to be that searching is a waste of time except when it isn't; don't waste time searching except in areas where you need to, (but you don't know what areas you need to search until you do search). You'll run out of time and loose the tournament if you waste time searching, but you'll hit a dead end and loose the tournament if you don't take the time to search.

Bullgrit


----------



## Kurtomatic

Bullgrit said:


> Saying that something in the Tomb is a punishment for wasting time searching things is absurd...



Rawr! Whoever pissed in your cornflakes this morning, it wasn't me, honest.

I have never run _ToH_, and I'm not making assertions about this adventure in general. I was simply offering another perspective regarding Gary's reflection on this room. Please try not to inflate my remarks out of context, and I'll try not to step so hard on your OCD triggers.

I agree that there are competing imperatives for the players of this module in a tournament setting. Areas 19 and 21 do make for an interesting comparison, because ideally, there should be some way for the players to suss out which room is important, and which one is a distraction. My comments went to motive, not execution.

You may think it's absurd to punish players for wasting time searching rooms in ToH, but right or wrong, Gary clearly thought otherwise. My own experience in this regard is that distracting, time-wasting, character-killing rooms and traps are a classic tournament meme that work well when they aren't entirely capricious. 

This thread is all about design versus implementation. In the case of the _Tomb_, "murky" seems an apt description.

*Mod note:*  You're free to disagree, but don't get rude or personal about it - see my post below.  ~Umbran


----------



## FoxWander

Well I think we can all agree that Tomb of Horrors is not a classic because it was a well-written masterpiece.  We've all commented on it's 'stream of consciousness' writing style.  It was one of the first ten modules ever published and literally the first _tournament_ module ever published, so I think Gary can be forgiven if it's a little... uneven, shall we say.  But in the module's defense, there IS one clue that might allow players to figure that room 21 is a distraction whereas room 19 is important- given it's framework as a tournament module.  Room 21 looks very much like the trap that it is and 19 is a room that begs to be searched.  It's a little simplistic but I think that's it.  

I mean, room 19 is a _magical workshop_ filled with shiny stuff (true, most if it is literally a distraction but I think the sheer amount of stuff is intended to lead players to figure that out as well).  Meanwhile, room 21 is a wreck- broken and disheveled and filled with junk.  I think the intention is that players should immediately know something "bad" will/has happen/ed in room 21 and that they shouldn't tarry.  And I have yet to hear of a party that _didn't_ come to that conclusion.  Whether that keeps them from "being punished" by the room is a different matter.


----------



## Ultimatecalibur

Looking at the pictures of rooms 19 and 21 gives you a completely different perspective on them than the ones you get from descriptions the DM descriptions. It had slipped my mind that this adventure has no descriptive flavor text. When running this adventure the DM is just supposed to show the appropriate picture and then answer any questions the players ask.

In room 19's picture the 3 vats are front and center and obviously hold something in them. 

Room 21's shows the warn furniture, several trunks/chests, scattered cups and boxes, a bunch of knocked over braziers, the two tapestries and a (false) door. The oddness of what looks to be a recently passed through room should throw up warning signs in players heads especially if they compare it to 19's untouched state. The coffers are fairly innocuous, and most likely won't be noticed when compared to the tapestries, (false) door or trunks. The setup of the tapestries and false door screams check behind the tapestry on the opposite wall once the false door is identified.


----------



## Bullgrit

...


----------



## Umbran

Kurtomatic said:


> Please try not to inflate my remarks out of context, and I'll try not to step so hard on your OCD triggers.





Dude, suggesting that someone's disagreeing with you due to mental illness, even in jest, is rude and dismissive.  We expect you to treat your fellow posters with respect, not address them with _ad hominem_ nonsense.

I hope that's abundantly clear.  If you've got questions or comments, please take it to e-mail or PM with one of the moderators, thank you.


----------



## jonesy

FoxWander said:


> It was one of the first ten modules ever published and literally the first _tournament_ module ever published, so I think Gary can be forgiven if it's a little... uneven, shall we say.



That's a good point. Thinking about it as a tournament prototype makes many of the things commented on here make more sense.

But that still doesn't change what the Tomb is like, and it's looking more and more capricious.


----------



## Bullgrit

FoxWander said:
			
		

> It was one of the first ten modules ever published and literally the first tournament module ever published, so I think Gary can be forgiven if it's a little... uneven, shall we say.



I think _Tomb of Horrors_ suffers mostly from its own latter-day hype and reputation. It used to be just another D&D module. Its concept and play style are different than the standard of the time -- compare to the Giants tournament modules and the Slavers tournament modules, etc. -- and that served to make it stand out a bit in its day. But, still, it was just a tournament module that Gygax whipped together for an upcoming convention. He didn't write it as a magnus opus. It was just a fun romp for a play style that some folks liked and some folks didn't.

Then, 20+ years later, people talk about it as a brilliant masterpiece. The hype and reputation that has built up around it have far exceeded anything the text in the book could realistically meet. Its no longer just one of many tournament modules produced for D&D in the early days, it is *The Tomb of Horrors!*, "Quake in fear oh whimpy Players! This is the Ultimate Test of your skill!"

Bullgrit


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## amerigoV

Bullgrit said:


> Then, 20+ years later, people talk about it as a brilliant masterpiece. The hype and reputation that has built up around it have far exceeded anything the text in the book could realistically meet.
> 
> Bullgrit




I give you proof of its greatness:

Find me any other thread on this board ever that has gone 20+ pages that (1) is still on topic to the original post (2) has not devolved into Clintonian logic over the definition of words to prove obscure points, and (3) aside from a few minor exceptions, has remained extremely civil regardless of disagreeing points.

I would nominate this is the best thread ever on this board, and one I eagerly await updates on (all others fall into the Rule of 2 - there is nothing of value past page 2 on the original topic).

Back to the topic:
One poster mentioned "Avoid Green if you can" for Room 21 in reference to the curtain. Are their other lines in the poem that carry weight throughout the Tomb? I have always thought the peom was somewhat sequencial, but perhaps it is not.


----------



## Stoat

[MENTION=26651]amerigoV[/MENTION]

Without getting too far ahead of myself, the poem is loosely sequential.  The first few lines apply to the route from Area 3 to the Chapel.  The next few lines (seemingly) apply to the route from the Chapel to the Pillared Hall (this is where we are now).  The last few lines seem to apply to the route from the Pillared Hall to the end of the module.

That said, I keep looking for places where the poem calls back to itself.  In other words, I keep expecting to see places where green is bad and black is the right path forward.  For the most part, I am not seeing that.  

Next up is Area 22, which is a weird one.  With good luck, I'll get to it first thing tomorrow morning.


----------



## Flatus Maximus

amerigoV said:


> I give you proof of its greatness:
> 
> Find me any other thread on this board ever that has gone 20+ pages that (1) is still on topic to the original post (2) has not devolved into Clintonian logic over the definition of words to prove obscure points, and (3) aside from a few minor exceptions, has remained extremely civil regardless of disagreeing points.
> 
> I would nominate this is the best thread ever on this board, and one I eagerly await updates on (all others fall into the Rule of 2 - there is nothing of value past page 2 on the original topic).




This sounds more like proof of the greatness of this thread, with which I whole-heartedly agree. I agree with Bullgrit: this module is _at best_ way over-hyped.


----------



## Freakohollik

Bullgrit said:


> I think _Tomb of Horrors_ suffers mostly from its own latter-day hype and reputation. It used to be just another D&D module. Its concept and play style are different than the standard of the time -- compare to the Giants tournament modules and the Slavers tournament modules, etc. -- and that served to make it stand out a bit in its day. But, still, it was just a tournament module that Gygax whipped together for an upcoming convention. He didn't write it as a magnus opus. It was just a fun romp for a play style that some folks liked and some folks didn't.
> 
> Then, 20+ years later, people talk about it as a brilliant masterpiece. The hype and reputation that has built up around it have far exceeded anything the text in the book could realistically meet. Its no longer just one of many tournament modules produced for D&D in the early days, it is *The Tomb of Horrors!*, "Quake in fear oh whimpy Players! This is the Ultimate Test of your skill!"
> 
> Bullgrit




I didn't think we'd get into an evaluation of the entire module until we'd finished all the rooms, but this is one module that I will always defend and Bullgrit has been bashing it for 20 pages. This module has more clever ideas and ingenuity in its 10 pages than anything else. The rooms, puzzles, and traps here are like nothing you will read anywhere else.

It's not runable as-is for most groups. Some rooms aren't designed well. But if you want to use your mind and test how good you are against a dungeon when there aren't dice to roll, this is the only module ever written that will give you that.

Futhermore, this is one of the only modules that is filled with things I couldn't think up. It's a module that is doing more than saving me the trouble of writing my own adventure.

It has more ingenuity than anything else. It's the only module of it's kind. And even after reading it, I can't duplicate it. That's why, despite all the flaws, it is one of the greatest.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 22. The Cavern of Gold and Silver Mists*

Past Area 21 the PC's go down a staircase to a long corridor.  The corridor runs about 40 feet to a four-way intersection.  There is a pit trap in the intersection.  If the party keeps going east, they eventually come to Area 22.

Area 22 appears to be a natural cavern. It is filled with gold and silver mist.  At the center of the cavern is a beautiful grotto.  The whole place radiates a dim aura of good.

The mists are poisonous.  Any PC who enters must save versus poison or have their intelligence drop to 2.  Breathing "the clean air above ground under the warm sun."  Will restore the afflicted PC's intelligence.  So will a touch from the Siren who lives here.

See, as a private joke, Acererak has imprisoned a lovely Siren in this room.  Here she is:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic22.jpg

The Siren is friendly and will talk to the PC's.  She cannot leave the room unless she is asked, but an enchantment keeps her from just coming out and saying that.  Also, she doesn't know anything about the rest of the Tomb.

There are also two bags in the room.  You can see them in the picture.  The larger bag is actually a small bag of holding that contains a few coins.  The smaller bag contains a random object anything from fluffy wool to a ring of feather falling.

Of course, there's a catch to all this.  The PC's can take either the Siren or the large bag or the small bag out of the room.  They can only take one of the three.  If the PC's touch a bag, the Siren and the other bag disappear.  If they ask the Siren to come with, both bags disappear.  

IMO:  On the one hand, I really like the concept of this room.  It has an "enchanted fey" vibe that feels like a myth or a fairy tale.  It's also a role-playing encounter, which is a nice change of pace from the rest of the Tomb.

On the other hand, the fey vibe seems a little out of place in the Tomb.  Worse, there is no clue in the module to warn the players that they need to make a choice between the Siren, Bag A and Bag B.   Because the players don't know the stakes, they can't make an informed decision.  This means that they can't agonize too much about what to do.  My guess is that most groups sort of blunder through this Area, accidentally pick up one of the bags, and then spend the rest of the night wondering what they missed.


----------



## terrya

Flatus Maximus said:


> This sounds more like proof of the greatness of this thread, with which I whole-heartedly agree. I agree with Bullgrit: this module is _at best_ way over-hyped.




I fail to see how. What this thread has done is highlight that the module is not designed for social gamers or 4E lovers. I dont want to derail the thread so ill leave it with the fact this is probably one of the 5 best modules of all time, all 5 were written by Gary him self and all were written in a way that they were designed to be inconsistant and for the odds to be stacked against you. What you call flaws are what made D&D and these modules in particular a great success.


----------



## Stoat

terrya said:


> I fail to see how. What this thread has done is highlight that the module is not designed for social gamers or 4E lovers. I dont want to derail the thread so ill leave it with the fact this is probably one of the 5 best modules of all time, all 5 were written by Gary him self and all were written in a way that they were designed to be inconsistant and for the odds to be stacked against you. What you call flaws are what made D&D and these modules in particular a great success.




What prompted me to start this thread were a number of comments suggesting that S1 was not designed to be inconsistent and that the odds were not stacked against the PC's.  Lots of people suggested that the Tomb was "fair," that Acererak gave the players a "walkthrough," and that smart players could figure out the how to avoid the traps using clues presented in the module.  

As for the module's popularity, I think there are several reasons for it.  For one thing, the Tomb of Horrors is _old._  It was written in 1975 and first published in 1978.  In other words, it's older than AD&D.  It was there at the beginning, and that fact alone is going to give some cachet.  

Moreover, and more important, the Tomb is different from the vast majority of published adventures.  It is extremely light on combat.  So far, the only unavoidable fight we've seen is the grey ocher jelly in Area 19.  As far as I know, it is the only classic module based around tricks and puzzles instead of monster encounters.  It sticks out, and people remember it for that reason.

Further, the encounters we've looked at so far are memorable.  We can argue about whether the Great Green Devil or the gender-bending Chapel or the Agitated Chamber are fair, but I think we can all agree that they stick in the mind.  The encounters are original and weird.  They present unusual challenges, and failing to meet those challenges results not just in death, but in strange and gruesome outcomes.  PC's might be disintegrated, they might wind up naked back where they started, they might have their gender reversed, they might get turned into slime.  You don't forget something like that.  You talk about it for years after it happens.

Finally, Gygax talked a big game about the Tomb.  Check out a few quotes from Wikipedia: "There were several very expert players in my campaign, and this was meant as yet another challenge to their skill—and the persistence of their theretofore-invincible characters. Specifically, I had in mind foiling Rob Kuntz's PC, Robilar, and Ernie Gygax's PC, Tenser."  Gygax wanted to be "ready for those fans [players] who boasted of having mighty PCs able to best any challenge offered by the AD&D game."  When Gary Gygax says that he wrote a module to test the most expert players with the mightiest PC's, he's going to get attention.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> As for the module's popularity, I think there are several reasons for it. For one thing, the Tomb of Horrors is old. It was written in 1975 and first published in 1978. In other words, it's older than AD&D. It was there at the beginning, and that fact alone is going to give some cachet.
> 
> Moreover, and more important, the Tomb is different from the vast majority of published adventures. It is extremely light on combat. So far, the only unavoidable fight we've seen is the grey ocher jelly in Area 19. As far as I know, it is the only classic module based around tricks and puzzles instead of monster encounters.
> 
> Further, the encounters we've looked at so far are memorable. We can argue about whether the Great Green Devil or the gender-bending Chapel or the Agitated Chamber are fair, but I think we can all agree that they stick in the mind. The encounters are original and weird. They present unusual challenges, and failing to meet those challenges results not just in death, but in strange and gruesome outcomes. PC's might be disintegrated, they might wind up naked back where they started, they might have their gender reversed, they might get turned into slime. You don't forget something like that. You talk about it for years after it happens.



All true enough to be repeated.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 22. The Cavern of Gold and Silver Mists*





			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> IMO: On the one hand, I really like the concept of this room. It has an "enchanted fey" vibe that feels like a myth or a fairy tale. It's also a role-playing encounter, which is a nice change of pace from the rest of the Tomb.



I agree with this opinion.


> On the other hand, the fey vibe seems a little out of place in the Tomb. Worse, there is no clue in the module to warn the players that they need to make a choice between the Siren, Bag A and Bag B. Because the players don't know the stakes, they can't make an informed decision. This means that they can't agonize too much about what to do. My guess is that most groups sort of blunder through this Area, accidentally pick up one of the bags, and then spend the rest of the night wondering what they missed.



I agree with this, too.

Something that bugs me about this room is, why are the contents of the bag random? This makes no sense for something that can't be repeatedly tried, (by the same or a later party -- the bags disappear), and for something that should be solid set across games for tournament play. I mean, two groups could make the same decision and take the same action, yet one might randomly get a bag of wool and the other gets a ring of featherfall, or a batch of healing potions. The right or wrong answer, a good or bad or neutral outcome, seems based on random guess and/or random die roll, not on smart/clever/wise play.

Bullgrit


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## terrya

I would agree your reason for starting the thread may be justified, in the sence the module is not fair by the standard your setting but it was certinaly no more unfair than any other module. Your trying to sell the tomb as somthing hugely different to the rest of D&D, an opinion widly shared. But the simple turth of it is the things complained about in this thread, inconcinsties, random rooms, no clues as to the exsistance of traps or hints on what path to take, were in every Gary written or even Greyhawk based module. Read through the caves of chaos or temple of elemental evil. You will find examples of everything found in the tomb on a smaller slightly different scale but the princable remained the same. All the tomb did was gather the best bits of D&D and put them alltogther! (hence the dificulty level)


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## Bullgrit

terrya said:
			
		

> Read through the caves of chaos or temple of elemental evil. You will find examples of everything found in the tomb on a smaller slightly different scale but the princable remained the same.



Funny you should use _Keep on the Borderlands_ and _Temple of Elemental Evil_ as examples for this premise. KotB and ToEE are in my top three favorite adventure modules of all time. I am quite familiar with them.

And I see no game style similarity between them and _Tomb of Horrors_. ToH is a completely different beast by intentional design.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> *Area 22. The Cavern of Gold and Silver Mists*
> 
> Past Area 21 the PC's go down a staircase to a long corridor.  The corridor runs about 40 feet to a four-way intersection.  There is a pit trap in the intersection.  If the party keeps going east, they eventually come to Area 22.



I've been going over my old notes because I couldn't remember this section at all. And I don't think anyone ever went to 22.

The first party I played in didn't get this far.

The second party I played in went straight through 23, the secret trapdoor, and onward without losses (or gains) in this section.

The remnants of the first party I DM'd through here lost one PC to the spear trap in the south passage, and the rest went straight through 23 and got squashed in the sleep passage.

The remaining three of the paranoid wizard's team (the rogue and a cleric and a fighter) found the secret trapdoor near #23 and kept moving.

The third party I DM'd dissolved because of player problems before the adventure made it here, and left.

The fourth party I DM'd was in Return, and I can't find my notes on that. But they did something to bypass this section, I'm sure of that.

And then there was the 4E supermodule, which is different.



> Because the players don't know the stakes, they can't make an informed decision.  This means that they can't agonize too much about what to do.  My guess is that most groups sort of blunder through this Area, accidentally pick up one of the bags, and then spend the rest of the night wondering what they missed.



I would think that the siren would be the first thing the party takes notice of?


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Something that bugs me about this room is, why are the contents of the bag random? This makes no sense for something that can't be repeatedly tried, (by the same or a later party -- the bags disappear), and for something that should be solid set across games for tournament play. I mean, two groups could make the same decision and take the same action, yet one might randomly get a bag of wool and the other gets a ring of featherfall, or a batch of healing potions. The right or wrong answer, a good or bad or neutral outcome, seems based on random guess and/or random die roll, not on smart/clever/wise play.




I think the random element would make sense if there were some way for the players to know the stakes.  Group A could choose to go with a certain reward.  Group B could take a calculated risk and possible gain a larger reward.  Of course, the module doesn't give any way for the players to undertake that analysis.

I think I'm going to steal this encounter for my own home game.  My initial thought is that the Siren won't be able to speak directly about her situation, but her evasive answers will provide clues that the players can use to suss out what's going on.


----------



## Stoat

jonesy said:


> I would think that the siren would be the first thing the party takes notice of?




True, but the bags don't disappear until the PC's invite the Siren to join them.  I imagine that the players will be deeply suspicious of her, particularly when she can't give a straight answer to their questions.  So, my guess is that most groups touch one of the bags first.

Obviously, a lot rides on how the DM portrays the Siren, and the module doesn't give a lot of guidance for that.


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## Bullgrit

Things to consider:

Is there any way of safely entering the mist? The save is vs. poison, and the cure is to breathe clear air, but the text doesn't say that breathing the mist is the danger. It says, "entering the mist," causes the effect. So can a PC hold his breath and enter to grab a bag?

The text for the fear gas in area 18 specifically says the PCs can hold their breath to avoid the effects. But no such info for area 22. The mist has the same effect as the siren's touch, so there is some suggestion of just being in, (touched by), the mist inflicts the effect.

Also, visibility is limited to six feet in the mist, but the "beautiful grotto in which dwells the siren," with the two sacks, is over 30 feet into the room. So to even encounter the siren and see the bags, the PCs have to enter the mist.

If the siren comes out of her grotto and approaches within six feet of the edge, so the party outside the mist can see her, the bags are still out of sight.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

RE: the poem.



> Go back to the tormentor or through the arch,
> and the second great hall you’ll discover.
> Shun green if you can, but night’s good color
> is for those of great valor.
> If shades of red stand for blood the wise
> will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of
> magical metal - you’re well along your march.
> Two pits along the way will be found to lead
> to a fortuitous fall, so check the wall.
> These keys and those are most important of all,
> and beware of trembling hands and what will maul.
> If you find the false you find the true
> and into the columned hall you’ll come,
> and there the throne that’s key and keyed.
> The iron men of visage grim do more than
> meets the viewer’s eye.
> You’ve left and left and found my Tomb
> and now your soul will die.



*If you find the false, you find the true.*

At the intersection there is a false door to the south.
To the east is a real door leading to 22.
And there is a false door to the north, behind which is a secret door, behind which is a secret trapdoor, and past the trapdoor is a route north.
The trapdoor is the good route. Continuing north past the trapdoor is bad and takes you to the sleep trap.

If the party goes south and then east, they'll assume the poem meant the false door south, and the real door east.

If the party goes east, they'll find the real door, and not think the poem appropriate here.

If the party goes north, they'll find the false door, and then the secret door, and to my mind think the path is good, and then they'll head north into the sleep trap. And not into the secret trapdoor, which is the good path.

The poem doesn't fit here even if they do what it assumes they'll do in the order it assumes them to.


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> The text for the fear gas in area 18 specifically says the PCs can hold their breath to avoid the effects. But no such info for area 22.



I'd assume that the same is true here, since it doesn't offer anything different.



> Also, visibility is limited to six feet in the mist, but the "beautiful grotto in which dwells the siren," with the two sacks, is over 30 feet into the room. So to even encounter the siren and see the bags, the PCs have to enter the mist.
> 
> If the siren comes out of her grotto and approaches within six feet of the edge, so the party outside the mist can see her, the bags are still out of sight.



I think Stoat is right about the importance of playing the siren, but I'd take it even further and say that this entire section depends entirely on how the DM plays it.


----------



## Bullgrit

Also, it should probably be noted that this whole area/encounter is unnecessary for completing the Tomb. There are no keys or anything specifically useful for a party exploring the Tomb, and the gimmick/trap is totally non-deadly.

Granted, again, there are no clues to tell/warn the PCs this is a useless time waster. The hall to this room doesn't even lead deeper into the Tomb. Coming this way at all is already going the wrong way.

Bullgrit


----------



## Freakohollik

It's an interesting, but unimportant room. The only purpose seems to be to waste time for tournament playrs and lower their score.

Outside of a tournament setting, the room is still worth having since it's more interesting than a dead end.


----------



## FoxWander

Most groups I've heard about don't even find the siren.  Going down that corridor requires crossing or jumping over the pit, as opposed to simply stepping around a corner to go north or south.  Since the PCs have just encountered a pit with a trap on the far side, they might be suspicious of trying to go east towards the siren's area.  And there's _another_ pit in front of the east door.  If they find the cavern at all they get suspicious of the mists (especially if someone fails a save) and don't go any further.  

Getting to the siren requires a fairly determined party IMO.  Our group in Return followed the scent of the instructor from the Dark Academy who had gone this way before.  That's how we found the false/true door and continued on.


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

Assuming you breathe the mist and fail your save, is there any indication of what the proper method to heal yourself is to the characters?


----------



## Bullgrit

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Assuming you breathe the mist and fail your save, is there any indication of what the proper method to heal yourself is to the characters?



Good question. Depending on how the DM interprets the siren's restrictions on what she can say/talk about, she maybe can tell them. The siren can cure the idiocy by touch, (just as she can cause it by touch).

Bullgrit


----------



## Joshua Randall

Interesting thread.

I'm mostly in Bullgrit's camp -- the Tomb is vastly overrated, and statements that it somehow challenges the players' thinking abilities don't hold up to me.

As Bullgrit has pointed out, in some places the Tomb punishes you for persistence; in other places, it rewards you. In some places, it punishes you for searching thoroughly; in other places, it rewards you. In some places, the Tomb maybe sorta kinda gives you a clue (though we can argue about that); in other places, it leaves you completely to your own devices.

It's maddening. And maybe that's the way AcerGygax likes it.

= = =

A couple of points I remember from when I played this, back in the day.
[sblock]
* One of my characters had a _gem of true seeing_, gained during a previous adventure. That item made the Tomb much easier.

(But, it's not like having it means I was a better player. It just means my DM was nice enough to lay the gem on me in a previous adventure.)

* We cast _find the path_, repeatedly. Our DM interpreted it fairly liberally, so we were able to avoid many of the traps.

* My wizard character used _unseen servant _and/or _telekinesis _constantly. I don't think we ever touched or manipulated anything by hand unless we had no alternative. I specifically remember using _telekinesis _to get the key-half out of the acid, after _detect magic _had revealed something was in there.

* But, lest you think the DM was too easy on us, my recollection is as follows:

1 PC lost part of an arm to the Great Green Face
1 PC lost all equipment to the misty archway trap
1 PC had his/her gender and alignment swapped and had to be put down (hey, he/she was evil, he/she attacked us)

I think someone got smushed by the juggernaut, but I vaguely remember we had some clever way around it.

And... all remaining PCs died to the demilich in the end. Our DM may have been generous in allowing us to get that far, but since we didn't have the right silver bullets prepared (and this was before MM2 existed), we were toast as soon as the skull rose up.
[/sblock]


----------



## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> Good question. Depending on how the DM interprets the siren's restrictions on what she can say/talk about, she maybe can tell them. The siren can cure the idiocy by touch, (just as she can cause it by touch).
> 
> Bullgrit




But the party has to risk further exposure to the mists to find the siren for the chance to learn that.  Groups that just run will have to find the "cure" whenever they leave the Tomb.

My wife just reminded me that our party in Return _did_ find the siren but we did it after completing that whole adventure.  We found out during the Fortress of Conclusion that the Tomb was being maintained by demons.  There was plenty we couldn't loot (the big mithral doors mainly) because of that.  So once Acererack was defeated and the demons were gone we went back to loot it all before anyone else figured out what was going on.  One of the last things we found was the siren.  We got her out AND the sacks of treasure- the DM ruled that when they disappeared they just teleported to the vault like any PC possessions do.  

I knew we went back to loot the Tomb more but couldn't remember if we got the siren or not.


----------



## Stoat

Patryn of Elvenshae said:


> Assuming you breathe the mist and fail your save, is there any indication of what the proper method to heal yourself is to the characters?




In addition to the siren's touch, breathing fresh air under warm sunlight will cure an afflicted PC.


----------



## MarkB

Stoat said:


> In addition to the siren's touch, breathing fresh air under warm sunlight will cure an afflicted PC.




I think the question was "Is there any way for the characters to discover this fact?"


----------



## Patryn of Elvenshae

MarkB said:


> I think the question was "Is there any way for the characters to discover this fact?"




Exactly.


----------



## jonesy

MarkB said:


> I think the question was "Is there any way for the characters to discover this fact?"



Only by stumbling into one of the solutions.

If they touch the siren.
If they run away from the tomb.
If they win and leave.
If the siren tells them.

Without the siren, or without them leaving, forget about it.

They can't even simulate the effects since one of the requirements is 'above ground'. Unless the DM is feeling lenient.


----------



## FoxWander

MarkB said:


> I think the question was "Is there any way for the characters to discover this fact?"




No, I don't believe there's any way for the PCs to discover _HOW_ the siren's ability works.  Back in 1e there was no distinction between extraordinary, spell-like, or supernatural powers.  There was no recourse as to which saving throw would be most appropriate.  It would probably just default to a save vs. spells.
















Yeah the " breath the clean air above ground under the warm sun" is a pretty bizarro cure.  There's no way I can see for the PCs to figure it out except for some kind of divination spell.  Eventually an afflicted PC would meet those conditions and be cured, but depending on where the Tomb is placed and what time of year it is, that could be a while.  I mean, the dedault location of the Tomb is the Great Swamp- hardly a place to breath "clean air."  And if they happened to go during winter it could be awhile before they're under a "warm sun." 

And the siren wouldn't be any help either. The text says...


			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> The siren will converse in a friendly fashion only, asking how characters are and if they find the going hard In the Tomb. She will answer any direct questions with an evasive reply: «I cannot say,» «That is unknown to me,» «possibly,» etc. until she is freed. She knows nothing of the Tomb in any event.



So even if she DID know the bizarro cure (which she shouldn't because she "knows nothing of the Tomb") she couldn't tell you until you free her because she answer's direct questions evasively until then.  At most she might ask about an obviously afflicted PC and volunteer that she can cure him/her.


----------



## Bullgrit

> Yeah the " breath the clean air above ground under the warm sun" is a pretty bizarro cure.



I like this kind of cure. But D&D has all kinds of magic specifically to cure/remove such afflictions in an easy way, so forcing a more complicated cure can/does come across as wrong.

My complaint with this is that this idiocy effect just doesn't match well with the Tomb. Reduced intelligence is almost completely an in-game role play problem in AD&D, (except for magic-users), which clashes with the "test the player, not the character" premise of ToH.

Bullgrit


----------



## Freakohollik

Bullgrit said:


> I like this kind of cure. But D&D has all kinds of magic specifically to cure/remove such afflictions in an easy way, so forcing a more complicated cure can/does come across as wrong.
> 
> My complaint with this is that this idiocy effect just doesn't match well with the Tomb. Reduced intelligence is almost completely an in-game role play problem in AD&D, (except for magic-users), which clashes with the "test the player, not the character" premise of ToH.
> 
> Bullgrit




Perhaps the goal was to remove the MU's spells so that player would be tested more than his character.


----------



## Hussar

Freakohollik said:


> Perhaps the goal was to remove the MU's spells so that player would be tested more than his character.




That's REALLY REALLY reaching.  For one, the MU player would have to be the one to enter the mist and would have to do it first because if anyone else went first, he would never go in.

Why would you even remotely assume that the MU would be hit by this particular trap?


----------



## Freakohollik

Hussar said:


> That's REALLY REALLY reaching.  For one, the MU player would have to be the one to enter the mist and would have to do it first because if anyone else went first, he would never go in.
> 
> Why would you even remotely assume that the MU would be hit by this particular trap?




Any justification for this room is going to be reaching. I question the intelligence of any player that would walk into a gas filled room in the Tomb of Horrors.

The mist is the real trap here. The other stuff is just dressing as it's all worthless anyway. The siren can't help you and the only potentially good treasure is the scrolls.

Maybe Gary devised the gas room as the trap, then decided to make it more fancy without being lethal.


----------



## coce

If the sirens touch heals the int dmg, does the mist drain it again?

Do you have to take the siren out of the room, and then get cured as a reward for your random choice?

(i have little knowledge of how "mists" work in AD&D =)


----------



## jonesy

coce said:


> If the sirens touch heals the int dmg, does the mist drain it again?



Haha! Now I'm imagining a party which is unable to leave the room because they have to keep touching the siren, since they go immediately dumb again.

What is this, the Benny Hill room?


----------



## Orius

jonesy said:


> The second group I ran through the tomb had a wizard who was turning increasingly paranoid and crazy the farther the adventure progressed. When the player heard the description of the Laboratory he shouted "Mimics! Those tables are mimics!" And then he proceeded to waste the last charges in his Staff of Fireballs just blasting into the room.




That is hilarious.  Always fun to see the various effects paranoia can have on a group of D&D players.  



Bullgrit said:


> AD&D1 Dungeon Master's Guide, page 97:




What a minute am I reading that right?  The second paragraph says the DM isn't supposed to tell the players anything outright, they have to work for the clues, but the next paragraph says if they start wasting time investigating everything thoroughly, the DM is supposed to use the ear seekers and wandering monsters liberally and fall back on mind games to make the players rush through things?

The Tomb of Horrors is the only truely old-school bit of D&D I've actually experienced.  I ran the repro copy from RttToH about 12 years ago as a one-shot adventure on Halloween.  The players used the pre-gens (which I'd upgraded a bit to 2e stats) and got to room 14.  I don't remember exactly which way they went but I vaguely remember the following details:


They checked the two false entrances and triggered them before they found the real entrance.
They fought the 4 armed gargoyle.
I'm pretty sure they busted through the mural and went through the door.  I'm fairly certain they left the green devil face at 6 alone.
They did the room with the 3 chests, I remember the snakes because I toned down the poison from 2e instadeath to just some simple damage.  I didn't want to just bump them off with some save and die poison early when there was some far more fun instakill stuff later like the lovely tapestries.


I don't remember if there were any casualties.  My sister was running a cleric and afterward I asked her why she didn't bother with any healing spells.  She said something like, "I figured we were all going to die anyway, so what was the point?" 

Anyway, one impression I've had of the Tomb for a long time comes from Gary's comment from RttToH about beating Rob and Ernie that a lot of this stuff was probably tailored to his group's playstyle.  He notes that both Rob and Ernie got through the Tomb successfully.  I wonder just how much the Tomb reflects the various tendancies of Gary, Rob, and Ernie (and others in that group?) in their games?  They knew how each other thought, Gary knew his players favorite tactics, and his most experienced players knew what tricks he liked to pull and I would guess a good deal of this module is built on that.  And as other people have stated several times already, this was originally written for a tournament and took into consideration tournament scoring.  So a group that's just playing at home and isn't the time to run a bomb squad through every single dungeon may very well not find it enjoyable, and perhaps this module doesn't just test player skill, but DM skill as well.  

I'm kind of in agreement with Stoat and Bullgrit on this thread though.  A lot of the stuff that's here is pretty damn arbitrary at times, and thinking things through doesn't look like it always helps since there's some stuff that's not really hinted at, or the hints are really really vague.  Note that Gary doesn't include correct interpretations to Acererak's riddles for the DM, and thus the speculation here on what some of the stuff is supposed to be referring to.  Also, there is definitely a paradigm shift in how things are supposed to be run; I'm comfortable with the 3e discouragement of metagame thinking.  This evolved out of various 2e ways of thinking that were a reaction to many experienced players knowing the game so well that it became harder to properly challenge them unless the players kept player and PC knowledge seperate. 

 The way this module is written though seems to assume the player will metagame ruthlessly, and does what it can to tackle it head on.  This is one reason why the DCs in the 3.5 conversion don't bother me, it's partially because of different gameply approaches, but it also takes the possibility of RttToH being used, and in that adventure the Tomb is not a stand alone but the second part of a wider campaign against Acererak.  If one is running the larger campaign, room 33 is not the ultimate goal, but something that needs to be completed to continue on to the next leg of the adventure.

Also, there is Penny Arcade's amusing take on the Tomb (I think it's probably referring to a 4e incarnation, but it can apply to any version of the Tomb really):

Penny Arcade - That Tomb Tomb Pow

I like the comments on the comic as well:



> Gabriel tried his hand at running an update of a classic D&D adventure for a group of players for whom 4th Edition is God’s edition, with grim results.  They aren’t familiar with the casual obliterations that characterize the old ways.  They know that earlier systems were byzantine, because I have shown them fairly standard tables that used to be completely ordinary player knowledge and seen them recoil as though from a serpent.  But older modules of the “meat grinder” variety, modules designed to punish the most devious players, represent something far outside their experience.


----------



## jonesy

I never noticed that before, but there's a line right there in the middle of the Detection Of Unusual Circumstances, Traps And Hearing Noise chapter of the AD&D1 DMG, which states:

"A character with a sword must have it out and be thinking about its power in order for the weapon to communicate anything to him and her."

What the heck does that mean? Why in that chapter? Is it specifically about a magic sword which detects unusual circumstances, traps, or hears noises? Why would you need to think about its power for it to work? Or is it simply about someone feeling the surroundings with the sword, testing the floor or the walls, or something? Or did someone slip a euphemism in?


----------



## FoxWander

Yeah, that whole excerpt from the DMG seems unnecessarily antagonistic to PC.  Along with the sword bit seeming out of place, there's this part:

"An elf doesn't  detect secret doors 16%% of the time by merely passing them unless he or  she  is actually Concentrating on the act. "​
Which is directly at odds with the ability write-up under _elves_ in the PHB:

"Secret or concealed doors are difficult to hide from elves. Merely passing within 10' of the latter makes an elven character 16 213% ( 1   in 6) likely to notice it." _(emphasis added)_​
At least the gnome and dwarf abilities mentioned mirror their write-ups in the PH racial descriptions.

... But now we're getting pretty off-topic- this isn't a critique of 1E D&D's idiosyncrasies, it's about the Tomb's.    And as far as it's, shall we say, "uneven" pacing and expectations, I'll just say this: perhaps the Tomb would be better summed up not so much as "thinking person's" dungeon but more of a CAREFUL person's dungeon.


----------



## Joshua Randall

jonesy said:


> "A character with a sword must have it out and be thinking about its power in order for the weapon to communicate anything to him and her."
> 
> What the heck does that mean?



I always figured it was a reference to swords (and possibly other magic items) that can detect traps / treasure / secret doors / etc.

As to why it's in that section -- dude, have you _read_ the 1e DMG? Organization is not its strong point!


----------



## jonesy

Joshua Randall said:


> As to why it's in that section -- dude, have you read the 1e DMG? Organization is not its strong point!



I've read it, but I don't think I've ever understood it. 



FoxWander said:


> Yeah, that whole excerpt from the DMG seems unnecessarily antagonistic to PC.  Along with the sword bit seeming out of place, there's this part:
> 
> "An elf doesn't  detect secret doors 16%% of the time by merely passing them unless he or  she  is actually Concentrating on the act. "​
> Which is directly at odds with the ability write-up under _elves_ in the PHB:
> 
> "Secret or concealed doors are difficult to hide from elves. Merely passing within 10' of the latter makes an elven character 16 213% ( 1   in 6) likely to notice it." _(emphasis added)_​



So the open-to-all players guide is saying that the player of the elf doesn't need to do much anything to find secret doors.

But the DM-only book is basically saying that the players guide isn't privy to that information? That's very sneaky.

Has anyone made a comparison of the two to see if this was a consistent thing, or just an anomaly? I'd be interested in reading one.


----------



## Bullgrit

I'd suggest taking the DMG discussion to a new thread. Feel free to repost that DMG page image -- it's an image on my site.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Just wondering if someone had already done one. I very briefly considered getting into it myself, but then I took a look at my copies of the PHB and DMG and.. oh boy.


----------



## Zombie Toast

I wrote up my Pathfinder conversion of the Tomb into a pdf available here if anyone's interested. It also includes rules for running the Tomb with Savage Worlds and PDQ.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 23. False/True Door*

As mentioned before, the hallway leading from Area 21 eventually reaches a four-way intersection.  Area 22 is to the east.  A trapped false door is to the south.  Area 23 is to the north.

This area starts with a false door. -- a normal-looking door that opens onto a blank wall.  The module doesn't say if its trapped like the other false doors in the Tomb.  The blank wall is actually a secret door.  It opens onto a 10 foot wide hallway running north.  There's a staircase and a door leading east at the end of this hall.

The stairs and door are a decoy.  The right way forward is a secret trap door set in the floor immediately past the secret door.  The trap door leads to a narrow tunnel that eventually takes the PC's to Area 25.  The Pillared Throne Room.

What if you miss the secret trap door and head north?  As best I can tell, the stairs are a dead end.  The east door leads to a short hallway with a pair of double doors facing north at the end of it.

Opening the double doors triggers a trap.  Sleep gas fills the area and everyone instantly falls asleep for 2-8 turns.  There is no saving throw.  Each turn the PC's are asleep, the DM rolls a d4.  On a roll of 4, this guy:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic23.jpg

comes out of a room to the north and trundles 1d6x10 squares along the hallway.  Everything the juggernaut passes over is "squashed to a pulp."  

IMO: Here's an answer for why PC's might decide to explore the mists of Area 22.  They miss the secret door at Area 23 or the secret trapdoor behind that, and they backtrack to see if Area 22 is the way forward.

The correct path requires the PC's to find a secret door hidden behind a false door and then to find a secret trap door behind that.  Acererak's riddle hints at this with the phrase, "If you find the false you find the true."  I'm not sure that hint is worth much, however, mostly because there are any number of false things in this part of the Tomb: a false lich in Area 18; and a a false door south of Area 23 for starters.  

On the other hand, if the false door at Area 23 isn't trapped, then it's different from other false doors in the Tomb, and that might be a hint for observant parties to notice.

Even if the PC's are thinking to look for secret doors, finding them is probably a matter of luck or magic.  The module doesn't specify any particular means of finding the two secret doors, so that leaves rolling to search (Luck) or using spells to detect them (magic).

Is there any warning or clue about the juggernaut in the module?  I don't see one.  And I'm not really sure how that part of the encounter is supposed to work.

First.  There are two corridors past the False/True door.  The first is an east-west hallway that's 30 feet long.  A single door is set in the west wall.  A pair of double doors is set in the north wall at the end.  Those doors open onto another hallway -- one that's 40 feet long.  The module says that a "passage full of sleep gas [] is reached by the east door."  When the double doors are opened, "everyone in that passage will instantly collapse into slumber."  Which passage are these two quotes talking about?  The first passage that leads up to the double doors, or the passage behind the double doors?

Second, when the juggernaut shows up, it rolls 10 to 60 feet, crushing all in its path.  Then what?  Does it keep going or does it stop?

Third, what about elves?  Aren't they immune to magical sleep?

I'm genuinely confused, and I'd like to hear how folks who have run this encounter approached it.


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> First.  There are two corridors past the False/True door.  The first is an east-west hallway that's 30 feet long.  A single door is set in the west wall.  A pair of double doors is set in the north wall at the end.  Those doors open onto another hallway -- one that's 40 feet long.  The module says that a "passage full of sleep gas [] is reached by the east door."  When the double doors are opened, "everyone in that passage will instantly collapse into slumber."  Which passage are these two quotes talking about?  The first passage that leads up to the double doors, or the passage behind the double doors?



"When the doors to the north (which open to the sleep gas area) are opened, everyone in that passage will instantly collapse In slumber for 2-8 turns."

I think that means the doors into the 20x20 room "which open back to the sleep gas area". And the sleep gas area would be the passage into which the juggernaut rolls, which is both the north-south passage leading to the 20x20 and the east-west passage after it. Otherwise no-one would ever be inside the sleep gas area when the trap is triggered.



> Second, when the juggernaut shows up, it rolls 10 to 60 feet, crushing all in its path.  Then what?  Does it keep going or does it stop?



I think it retreats back to the 20x20 room it was in. Otherwise the party would be the first party ever to trigger it, since it isn't still standing in the hallway.



> Third, what about elves?  Aren't they immune to magical sleep?



Good question. But does everyone need to be sleeping, or just some, for the effect to apply? It just says "every turn of slumber". I'd assume that the doors trigger both the sleep gas, and the juggernaut.

A thing to note here is that the juggernaut trap specifically says that everyone is crushed, there is no appeal. That's harsh.


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 23. False/True Door*




I swear, it’s like the man just can’t write this thing in an orderly and easily followable format. You have area 23 describing the false/secret door, and then 80 feet down the corridor, through another door, you have 23A describing another doorway and further corridor, completely unrelated to 23.

Because of the nature of this trap, (confusing), I thought I’d quote the text:







			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> The most likely place that will be found, however, is the passage full of sleep gas which is reached by the east door. When the doors to the north (which open to the sleep gas area) are opened, everyone in that passage will instantly collapse in slumber for 2-8 turns. Each turn of slumber roll a d4, and if a 4 results, a stone juggernaut (rather like a steam roller) comes out of the 20’x20’ room to the north and rolls 1-6 spaces (10’-60’) south then west as determined by a roll of d6. Everything it rolls over is squashed to a pulp. There is no appeal. (If the party is in this way destroyed, show them GRAPHIC #23.)



As Stoat mentions, this is a confusing situation. Where is the gas? Which hallway? Does it hang in the first hall, or does it come in when a door is opened to the second hall? Is it visible? Is this poison or magic? Can the PCs hold their breath? Does it matter: no save? Does each victim get his own 2-8 duration, or is the whole party out for the same length of time? Is there any clue for the PCs to avoid this trap?

Now, although any DM worth the initials can make a ruling on how this works, for a tournament game supposedly to test the Players, leaving a convoluted trap up to DM interpretation is a bad thing. Two groups could make the same decisions and take the same actions here, but depending on DM interpretation, one group could have a game-ending TPK, and another group could fully survive, (with some PCs pulling the sleeping PCs out of harm’s way before the juggernaut comes out).

Looking at the map and reading the text, I can come up with at least three different, (reasonable), theories on how this trap works. And each way means drastic different results for the PCs. Again, a tournament module meant to test the Players should not be so vague that different DMs can come to vastly different interpretations. For something so complicated and potentially deadly to an entire party, it should be clear to the DM reading the text how it works.

Also, I have to point out the most interesting note in this text: “Everything it rolls over is squashed to a pulp. There is no appeal.”

No appeal? Ha! Can the Players make an appeal to avoid death with other traps? To whom do Players direct their appeal in other cases? 

DM: The juggernaut rolls over you and squashes you to a pulp!
Player: What? 
DM: *banging fist on game table* No appeal!

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

jonesy said:
			
		

> Otherwise the party would be the first party ever to trigger it, since it isn't still standing in the hallway.



What is the assumption with this adventure? Are the PCs the first to explore the Tomb? Or have there been others, (and will be others), and the Tomb gets "reset" after each attempt?

There are several areas in the Tomb where either the PCs are the first to come in or the environment has been reset since the last invasion. 

Bullgrit


----------



## Maggan

Bullgrit said:


> What is the assumption with this adventure?




I always assumed that the PCs were but the next victims following the failures of countless others.

But that might be just what I assumed.

/M


----------



## Zombie Toast

Stoat said:


> *Area 23. False/True Door*
> 
> As mentioned before, the hallway leading from Area 21 eventually reaches a four-way intersection.  Area 22 is to the east.  A trapped false door is to the south.  Area 23 is to the north.
> 
> This area starts with a false door. -- a normal-looking door that opens onto a blank wall.  The module doesn't say if its trapped like the other false doors in the Tomb.  The blank wall is actually a secret door.  It opens onto a 10 foot wide hallway running north.  There's a staircase and a door leading east at the end of this hall.
> 
> The stairs and door are a decoy.  The right way forward is a secret trap door set in the floor immediately past the secret door.  The trap door leads to a narrow tunnel that eventually takes the PC's to Area 25.  The Pillared Throne Room.
> 
> What if you miss the secret trap door and head north?  As best I can tell, the stairs are a dead end.  The east door leads to a short hallway with a pair of double doors facing north at the end of it.
> 
> Opening the double doors triggers a trap.  Sleep gas fills the area and everyone instantly falls asleep for 2-8 turns.  There is no saving throw.  Each turn the PC's are asleep, the DM rolls a d4.  On a roll of 4, this guy:
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic23.jpg
> 
> comes out of a room to the north and trundles 1d6x10 squares along the hallway.  Everything the juggernaut passes over is "squashed to a pulp."
> 
> IMO: Here's an answer for why PC's might decide to explore the mists of Area 22.  They miss the secret door at Area 23 or the secret trapdoor behind that, and they backtrack to see if Area 22 is the way forward.
> 
> The correct path requires the PC's to find a secret door hidden behind a false door and then to find a secret trap door behind that.  Acererak's riddle hints at this with the phrase, "If you find the false you find the true."  I'm not sure that hint is worth much, however, mostly because there are any number of false things in this part of the Tomb: a false lich in Area 18; and a a false door south of Area 23 for starters.
> 
> On the other hand, if the false door at Area 23 isn't trapped, then it's different from other false doors in the Tomb, and that might be a hint for observant parties to notice.
> 
> Even if the PC's are thinking to look for secret doors, finding them is probably a matter of luck or magic.  The module doesn't specify any particular means of finding the two secret doors, so that leaves rolling to search (Luck) or using spells to detect them (magic).
> 
> Is there any warning or clue about the juggernaut in the module?  I don't see one.  And I'm not really sure how that part of the encounter is supposed to work.
> 
> First.  There are two corridors past the False/True door.  The first is an east-west hallway that's 30 feet long.  A single door is set in the west wall.  A pair of double doors is set in the north wall at the end.  Those doors open onto another hallway -- one that's 40 feet long.  The module says that a "passage full of sleep gas [] is reached by the east door."  When the double doors are opened, "everyone in that passage will instantly collapse into slumber."  Which passage are these two quotes talking about?  The first passage that leads up to the double doors, or the passage behind the double doors?
> 
> Second, when the juggernaut shows up, it rolls 10 to 60 feet, crushing all in its path.  Then what?  Does it keep going or does it stop?
> 
> Third, what about elves?  Aren't they immune to magical sleep?
> 
> I'm genuinely confused, and I'd like to hear how folks who have run this encounter approached it.





It is one of the more confusing areas. In my case I assumed the sleep gas is the vertical, north south hallway and it will affect everyone in the horizontal, east-west hallway. Elves are immune, same with anyone who is somehow immune to poison. 

As far as clues, I make sure to describe the doors in this hallway as unusually large...although they're not described that way they're marked on the map as double doors...and they'd have to be huge wouldn't they? To let the juggernaut through. 

The juggernaut rolls out of it's room, south, then west, then north, down the random flight of stairs where it comes to rest. 

I also personally replaced the steamroller juggernaut with a giant rolling boulder in the shape of a demon's head. It's much easier for me to imagine a boulder turning those tight corners rather than that elephant/steamroller. 



Bullgrit said:


> What is the assumption with this adventure? Are the PCs the first to explore the Tomb? Or have there been others, (and will be others), and the Tomb gets "reset" after each attempt?
> 
> There are several areas in the Tomb where either the PCs are the first to come in or the environment has been reset since the last invasion.
> 
> Bullgrit




There's several places including past victims. Some are obviously fakes created by Acererak but a few (like the chamber of Hopelessness) seem like genuine past adventurers. So it seems to me like the place must get reset, which certainly isn't that big a stretch considering the effort it took to create in the first place. But I also don't imagine that was a concern when it was written.


----------



## Stoat

What bothers me most about the Juggernaut portion of Area 23 is the vaguely worded description of the trap coupled with the fact that its a no-save, no-appeal PC killer.  Consider:

If the sleep gas pours out of the double doors to the north and fills the east-west hallway (which is how I read the text), then the PC's will fall asleep in the east-west hallway.  Only PC's close to the double doors need to worry about the juggernaut, it can't move far enough to threaten the entire east-west hall.  (If the DM rolls a 6, the Juggernaut makes it to the middle of the east-west hallway)  

On the other hand, if the gas pours out of the 20' square room and fills the north-south hallway (Jonesy's read) then the PC's fall asleep in the north-south hall and much more likely to be crushed.  The guy who opens the door is absolutely doomed.  AND if this is how this encounter works, does the gas also fill the east-west hallway?  If not, PC's who hide there stay awake and can try to save their comrades.

AFAICT: 
(a) There is no clue, hint or warning to the players that Area 23a is a potential deathtrap. (b) The only way for the players to avoid the deathtrap is to stay out of it.  If they explore too far, they fall asleep and risk being pulped.
(c) The text of the module is unclear about where the point of no return lies.  The DM must decide.

I don't like any of that.  

On the other hand, I do like the picture of the juggernaut.  IMO, it is one of the better illustrations in the module.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> On the other hand, I do like the picture of the juggernaut. IMO, it is one of the better illustrations in the module.



The elephant's face looks angry. The whole thing seems to be glowing. But it's the smears on the floor that push this illustration into the awesome zone 

Bullgrit


----------



## Joshua Randall

Bullgrit said:


> What is the assumption with this adventure? Are the PCs the first to explore the Tomb? Or have there been others, (and will be others), and the Tomb gets "reset" after each attempt?



I suppose some other parties must have explored the tomb (and survived!) in order for there to be rumors about it.

FWIW, Return to the TOH makes the "reset" explicit. Unlike the original tomb, if you leave the RttTOH Tomb for long enough, when you come back, the traps etc. will have been reset.

Hmm. That raises an interesting question about the original Tomb. I wonder what was the longest period of game-time that passed between a party's ventures therein? Were there any weird/slow/jus' diff'rent parties who allowed (say) 6-12 game-months to elapse between forays into the Tomb?


----------



## Freakohollik

Of the entire module, this is the part that I dislike the most. If you miss the secret door in the floor you're dead.

This is one of the main reasons I was asking about secret door detection odds upthread. If they're anything less than 100%, you could die here on a failed roll. That is absolutely not in the spirit of the dungeon.


----------



## Freakohollik

Bullgrit said:


> What is the assumption with this adventure? Are the PCs the first to explore the Tomb? Or have there been others, (and will be others), and the Tomb gets "reset" after each attempt?
> 
> There are several areas in the Tomb where either the PCs are the first to come in or the environment has been reset since the last invasion.
> 
> Bullgrit




The module mentions at the beginning that there are demons that periodically reset the dungeon. While not stated, I think it's implied that the PCs are not the first group to the tomb. But it's irrellevant as the demons will reset everything. Actually I think they even reset the treasure. Could a clever group do the tomb several times to get the treasure over and over? There's no risk once you know the correct route.


----------



## jonesy

Freakohollik said:


> Could a clever group do the tomb several times to get the treasure over and over? There's no risk once you know the correct route.



You mean, clever enough to convince the DM to allow it?


----------



## Stoat

Freakohollik said:


> The module mentions at the beginning that there are demons that periodically reset the dungeon.




The 3E conversion available from WotC.com says this, but the original module does not.  It only says that demons will attack PC's who become astral or ethereal in the Tomb.

Area 18 specifically says that "Acererak will see to the righting of things eventually," so it is implied that at least parts of the Tomb will be reset.


----------



## shmoo2

Stoat said:


> If the sleep gas pours out of the double doors to the north and fills the east-west hallway (which is how I read the text), then the PC's will fall asleep in the east-west hallway.  Only PC's close to the double doors need to worry about the juggernaut, it can't move far enough to threaten the entire east-west hall.  (If the DM rolls a 6, the Juggernaut makes it to the middle of the east-west hallway)




I think the wording is not clear, but this is the interpretation I've always thought the most likely.

But as you note, that placement with PCs asleep in the east-west hallway makes the trap much less deadly.
In fact it makes this area most likely to do nothing at all but give the PCs an hour long nap:

The average sleep duration in 5 turns.
The juggernaut shows up 76% of the time within this period. [24% of the time the party wakes up before it shows up]
Of that 76%, the juggernaut will only roll 10-40 feet and stay in the north-south hallway 2/3 of the time [so 51% of the time, the party wakes up after the juggernaut shows up, but doesn't touch them]

So, 75% of time, on average the PCs wake up after a nap with no one hurt.

Of the last 25%:
12.5% of the time, the juggernaut crushes only those within 10' of the double doors. It's very unlikely someone wasn't standing back a little farther.

12.5% of the time, he juggernaut crushes those within 20' of the double doors. This might be a TPK.

I really don't know if this is all intentional.
It seems weird to set up this elaborate trap, which is most likely to result in:

PC: OK, I open the double doors
DM: The huge doors creak open, and gas billows out to envelope all of you! You all instantly drop to the floor, asleep! No, there's no save, suckers. [rolls some dice] Ummm, and then you all wake up an hour later. So, what do you want to do now?


----------



## Havrik Stoneskimmer

I agree that the wording is unclear, but I think that the gas is meant to fill the east-west corridor, and it _activates_ when the double doors to the north are opened at which point all of the PCs in the hallway fall asleep.

shmoo2's analysis demonstrates that this is less of a deathtrap than it seems at first glance. I didn't realize in my first reading that you only roll for the juggernaut once and then it stops (or goes back into its cubbyhole).

I've never played the original ToH, only the 4e conversion, which is fairly faithful in many places but tends to tone down the "sorry, you all died" instant traps. The juggernaut in that version is a mobile trap that moves in a random direction every round until the PCs flee. So even though the 4e version is neutered in some ways, in other ways this encounter is more deadly than the original, since it continues until the PCs flee the area (and they may well be tempted to explore behind it).


----------



## jonesy

Havrik Stoneskimmer said:


> I've never played the original ToH, only the 4e conversion, which is fairly faithful in many places but tends to tone down the "sorry, you all died" instant traps. The juggernaut in that version is a mobile trap that moves in a random direction every round until the PCs flee. So even though the 4e version is neutered in some ways, in other ways this encounter is more deadly than the original, since it continues until the PCs flee the area (and they may well be tempted to explore behind it).



This is the DM Rewards conversion? Where does the sleep gas fall in it? And what triggers it?


----------



## Havrik Stoneskimmer

jonesy said:


> This is the DM Rewards conversion? Where does the sleep gas fall in it? And what triggers it?



Right, the DM Rewards conversion, which is a straightforward conversion of the original Tomb, with no added bits.

In this version, the sleep gas fills everything north of the false secret door (so including the first north/south hallway, the east/west hallway, the hallway leading to the juggernaut's room, and the little room itself. It activates when the PCs open the door in the first north/south corridor that leads to the east/west corridor (the door next to the dead-end stairs).

I think this is a very different reading than what the 1e module describes, but then, the whole encounter is a different animal in that the juggernaut comes out and continues moving until the PCs leave, and that the sleep gas allows many opportunities for the PCs to avoid falling asleep.


----------



## Stoat

I thought there was something to the idea that the Juggernaut keeps going until it crashes down the stairs.  For one thing, it explains why there's a dead-end staircase in the Tomb.  On the other hand, it turns Area 23a into an almost-certain TPK.

The module text is pretty vague.  I think the best interpretation is that the Juggernaut only moves 10-60 feet and stops, but I can also see a DM deciding that the Juggernaut is supposed to keep going.


----------



## Joshua Randall

FWIW, when we played this, the Juggernaut kept going.

And that is how everyone else I personally know always played/DM'd it. Small sample size and anecdotal, but there you go.

IMO, it's a pretty crappy trap if the Juggernaut just rolls out a bit and then stops. It seems much more in keeping with the Tomb's ruthless lethality for it to keep going.


----------



## Bullgrit

> It seems much more in keeping with the Tomb's ruthless lethality for it to keep going.



Here's something to consider:

Are we seeing that the Tomb *is* actually ruthlessly lethal? 

We've seen some traps/tricks that aren't lethal at all -- the idiot mist, the stripping arch, the sex change arch, the weakness gas, the false crypt cave in, etc.

We've seen some traps/tricks that _can_ be lethal if the damage builds up -- the zapping secret doors, the spear false doors, the exploding altar, plus the combats, etc.

We've seen some traps that _can_ be lethal if a victim fails an arguably easy saving throw -- poison spike pit traps, etc.

And we've seen a few traps that _can_ be lethal depending on DM interpretation:
- the tilting corridor into the fire -- the victim(s) can potentially retreat after they discover the danger and before it's too late.
- the green slime tapestry -- the victim(s) have to be holding the tapestry at the right moment, (and even then there's a 25% chance of the trap not happening).
- this juggernaut -- does it keep moving forward, or does it retreat?

And we've seen at least one trap that definitely is lethal -- the great green devil sphere of annihilation.

Now, I'm not saying the Tomb can not be deadly, that it's just a cake walk. Many PCs can and have died in the Tomb. But from what I'm seeing so far, it looks more like how "ruthless" the Tomb is relies more on how ruthless the DM wants to interpret the text, and wants the Tomb to be.

Take this juggernaut, for instance. The text is so vague that different competent DMs can come to very different interpretations of how the trap works. If one DM wants this trap to be ruthlessly lethal, he can rule the juggernaut keeps moving forward, and a TPK can result. If another DM doesn't feel especially ruthless, he can rule the juggernaut returns to its room after each roll out, and there might not be any death at all from this trap. Neither of these interpretations are definitely wrong, by the text as written. And then there's ruling on where the sleep gas is, and where/when it is triggered. 

What I'm seeing, so far, with the Tomb of Horrors, is that its ruthlessness is very dependent on the individual DM. 

This a good thing because each home group's play experience in the Tomb can be very different, depending on the DM's (and Players') personal style. This is a benefit for hobby games.

This is a bad thing because each tournament table group's play experience in the Tomb can be very different, depending on the DM's (and Players') personal style. This is a detriment to organized/judged/scored games.

Bullgrit


----------



## Zombie Toast

I originally thought the juggernaut kept moving, I didn't even notice that it didn't explicitly say that until you guys brought it up. 

Personally, if I ever get a group willing to go through the tomb, I'll probably have it keep moving. But I'll also make sure to roll the sleep duration individually for each character. That gives a better chance that there's one or two characters awake when the juggernaut begins rolling.


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## Bullgrit

Zombie Toast said:
			
		

> Personally, if I ever get a group willing to go through the tomb, I'll probably have it keep moving. But I'll also make sure to roll the sleep duration individually for each character. That gives a better chance that there's one or two characters awake when the juggernaut begins rolling.



This sounds awesome to me. Having someone witness the juggernaut moving, (and possibly squishing someone), is worthy of something called "Tomb of Horrors."

But how fast does the juggernaut move? Will PCs have time to get friends out of the hall? It's an interesting omission that Gygax doesn't explain exactly how fast the juggernaut moves, considering he goes into second by second movement for some earlier traps.

Bullgrit


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## Joshua Randall

Bullgrit said:


> Are we seeing that the Tomb *is* actually ruthlessly lethal?



Maybe not yet.



> the stripping arch



Many players would feel that losing all their equipment is a fate worse than death, so I'd argue that this counts as lethal 



> We've seen some traps that _can_ be lethal if a victim fails an arguably easy saving throw -- poison spike pit traps, etc.



Thing is, any individual saving throw might not be that difficult. But when you have to make a ton of saves over the course of an adventuring session -- well, it only takes one failure.

We haven't gotten to it yet, but when we do, I'm going to argue that the demilich himself is a near-certain TPK if the PCs stay to fight.


----------



## FoxWander

Huh?! I always took it that the Juggernaut rolls 10-60' EVERY turn if the DM rolls a 4.  But I can see how it could be read to say that it rolls then goes back and pops out again if another 4 is rolled.  That at least makes this a _vaguely_ less deadly trap- anyone more than 60' from the 20'x20' room would be completely untouched. 

I think my original interpretation is more fitting with the finality of the "no appeal" description.


----------



## Havrik Stoneskimmer

FoxWander said:


> Huh?! I always took it that the Juggernaut rolls 10-60' EVERY turn if the DM rolls a 4.



It's very vague. The exact text is "Each turn of slumber roll a d4, and if a 4 results, a stone Juggernaut (rather like a steam roller) comes out of the 20'x20' room to the north and rolls 1-6 spaces (10'-60') south then west as determined by a roll of d6".

If it wasn't for the "comes out of the 20'x20' room to the north" part, I might agree with your interpretation that the juggernaut keeps moving each turn. Although that itself is odd: it stops for 10 minutes and then starts rolling again?

I think the most literal interpretation of the text is that it's meant to be a one-shot trap that is completely lethal if you draw the unlucky numbers. Kind of a lame trap, IMO, although any other interpretation is even more unfair and lethal. 

The alternate idea that the PCs could individually wake up while the trap is activating is really cool, but would require a lot of DM judgments that the module doesn't provide: Did you wake up before or after your friends got squished? Can you stop the juggernaut from moving? Can you drag your sleeping friends away in time? Even though it requires a lot of DM improvisation, I might run it this way just to turn it into a trap that could be fun instead of another case of "rocks fall, everyone dies" with no warning.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 24. Adamantite Door*

If the PC's find the secret trapdoor in Area 23, it leads down to a narrow hallway.  100 feet later, they stand in front of Area 24.

The module does not describe the door, and there is no picture of it.  Presumably, it is made from "Adamantite."  There are 3 slots in it at about waist height.  The door is marked secret on the map, but it is not secret.  The map marker is only there "to make certain that its actual nature is known".

The adamantite door is protected by permanent anti-magics.  There is no magical or physical way to force your way through.  The only way to open the door is to simultaneously shove 3 swords into the 3 slots.  Even then, the door will only stay open for 5 rounds, and it will not open from the other side.

The module doesn't say what happens to the 3 swords, but I'm going to assume the PC's never get them back.

IMO:  Meh.  Area 24 and the means to open it are not mentioned in Acererak's riddle or anywhere else.  The only hint or clue to this area is the description of the door itself, which the module does not really supply.  Still,  "You see a big Adamantite Door with three slots in it at about waist high," is probably going to be enough to let most groups figure out what to do.

This is not a death trap, and it cannot hurt the PC's.  The module makes a big deal of the fact that it's a one-way door that closes after 5 rounds, but in desperate times there is nothing stopping the party from teleporting past it.

And why is this marked "S" for secret on the map?  "To make certain that its actual nature is known."  What the hell does that mean?

Finally, I've heard of Adamant and Adamantine and Adamantium, but "Adamantite" is a new one.  This is a word with more weird variants than Mithril.


----------



## Bullgrit

> * Area 24. Adamantite Door*



This door really should have an illustration to show the Players.

To me, I don’t see how Players will naturally, or at least quickly, come to the idea that the slots in the door are for sword blades. I mean, swords come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, even within the various categories, (long, short, two-handed, scimitar, etc.). I’m kind of surprised that the man who wrote pages and pages about the diversity of polearms would write a gimmick that seems to assume that all swords are the same.

But let’s say that the Players do figure out that inserting three sword blades into the three slots will open this door. Let’s look at the precedents set so far in the Tomb of Horrors:

The gargoyle statue – place ten 100gp gems in the statue’s hands, and it crushes each to dust. Fortunately, the PCs can find ten 100gp gems in the Tomb, in an earlier area.

The stone gate – place a magic ring into the slot, and the door crushes it to pieces. Fortunately, the PCs can find a magic ring in the Tomb, in an earlier area.

Now we have a door which requires you to insert three swords. As a Player, I’d assume the three swords would be destroyed. Also, I’d assume that we must have missed three swords for this purpose in an earlier area. At levels 10-14, surely every sword in the party is magical. I damn sure wouldn’t put my sword blade in any of these slots. This would mean the party either needs to backtrack and search for the area we missed where we can find three swords/keys for this door, or we’d backtrack all the way out and go grab some extra swords that we wouldn’t mind being destroyed to open this door.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Finally, I've heard of Adamant and Adamantine and Adamantium, but "Adamantite" is a new one. This is a word with more weird variants than Mithril.





			
				AD&D1 DMG said:
			
		

> Armor of +3 bonus is of special meteorite iron steel, +4 is mithral alloyed steel, +5 is adamantite alloyed steel.



Bullgrit


----------



## Squire James

I was under the impression that, unlike the previous scenarios, these swords were recoverable.  All the other scenarios made a specific reference to the fate of the items places, and this one didn't, so I guessed that nothing unusual happened to the swords.  Given what's past the doors, I doubt those swords would help much anyway!

Ironically, if the door were somehow removed and forged into swords, a bunch of paladins might have a chance against it...


----------



## jonesy

I think it would be fair to assume that if a player says the character inspects the slots, the DM's response should be something along the lines of "they look sword shaped". Otherwise it's a gamestopper. They'd never even get to the point where they find out that you need to do all three slots at the same time.



Squire James said:


> I was under the impression that, unlike the previous scenarios, these swords were recoverable.  All the other scenarios made a specific reference to the fate of the items places, and this one didn't, so I guessed that nothing unusual happened to the swords.  Given what's past the doors, I doubt those swords would help much anyway!



That was my assumption as well.



> Ironically, if the door were somehow removed and forged into swords, a bunch of paladins might have a chance against it...



Use them as throwing weapons? If only there was a Hulking Hurler in the party.


----------



## Hussar

Screw using the door as a weapon, sell it, get MASSIVE amounts of xp for treasure and come back when you just gained two or three levels.


----------



## FoxWander

We bypassed the door by _stoneshaping_ the hinges free and then we stole the whole thing.   Then we didn't have to worry about getting locked in the next room either.


----------



## Hussar

FoxWander said:


> We bypassed the door by _stoneshaping_ the hinges free and then we stole the whole thing.   Then we didn't have to worry about getting locked in the next room either.




This brings up a very interesting point.  How lethal the Tomb is will REALLY depend on what system you run it in.  The caster types at these levels just gain SO many options in later editions of D&D.  In straight up 1e PHB AD&D, this dungeon is quite a bit more difficult.


----------



## shmoo2

Hussar said:


> In straight up 1e PHB AD&D, this dungeon is quite a bit more difficult.




Stone shape is in the 1e PHB.

More like, this is an example of DM interpretation determining how the encounter operates.

I would not allow that trick to work. The text is explicit that magic can't bypass the door. It seems pretty dumb to build an invulnerable door, and place it in a vulnerable wall.


----------



## jonesy

shmoo2 said:


> I would not allow that trick to work. The text is explicit that magic can't bypass the door. It seems pretty dumb to build an invulnerable door, and place it in a vulnerable wall.



That's not what the text says:


> It has permanent anti-magics on it, and there is no magical or physical way of forcing entry.



Nothing about bypassing it. Just about force against the door itself.


----------



## Stoat

Hussar said:


> This brings up a very interesting point.  How lethal the Tomb is will REALLY depend on what system you run it in.  The caster types at these levels just gain SO many options in later editions of D&D.  In straight up 1e PHB AD&D, this dungeon is quite a bit more difficult.




As I've noted before, even in 1E the 14th level pregen Cleric can cast _Find the Path_ (a 6th level spell),  _True Seeing_ (a 5th level spell), and _Find Traps_ (a 2nd level spell).  They can also cast _Commune_, _Divination_, _Locate Object_ (on somebody's gear after they go through the bad arch), and _Augury_.  Of course, the cleric also has the means to heal wounded, poisoned and even dead PC's.

The 14th level pregen Magic-User can cast _Limited Wish,_ _Disintegrate_, _Teleport_, _Stone to Flesh_ (literally carve through the dungeon!), _Passwall_, _Stone Shape_, _Dimension Door_ (no line of sight required!), _Wizard Eye_, and _Fly_.

Some of these spells are less uesful than others (_Divination_, frex, isn't as cool as it sounds.)  Some of these spells are heavily DM dependent (_Limited Wish_, obviously, but I'm not sure from reading it exactly how _Find the Path_ is supposed to work, either.)  Bullgrit has pointed out that most of the divinations are somewhat unreliable.  

But, the spellcasters still have a lot of juice going into the Tomb.  For the most part, there's nothing stopping the group from using _Disintegrate_, _Passwall_, _Stone Shape_ or the like to bypass encounters in the Tomb.  Aggressive use of divinations to detect traps and the use of spells like _Fly_ and _Telekinesis_ to avoid touching dangerous stuff will greatly increase the party's chance of living long enough to die in Area 33.

This may or may not have been true when the module was first played in 1975, but it became true as soon as the 1E PHB was published a few years later.


----------



## Hussar

shmoo2 said:


> Stone shape is in the 1e PHB.
> 
> More like, this is an example of DM interpretation determining how the encounter operates.
> 
> I would not allow that trick to work. The text is explicit that magic can't bypass the door. It seems pretty dumb to build an invulnerable door, and place it in a vulnerable wall.




Well, true.  This specific spell was in the 1e PHB.  Although, it was a Druid and not Cleric spell so, it's not as likely that the party will have it.  In 2e, clerics gained access to almost all druid spheres, at least as a minor access, which granted them Stone Shape.

Casters have been gaining lots and lots of options with every edition.  I'm going to stand by the idea that if you play Tomb with a 1e PHB only, and no Dragon magazine material and no Unearthed Arcana, it is a much more difficult module than in later editions.

Although, funnily enough, I just checked the OSRIC document and Stone Shape is a Magic User spell (5th level).  I'm thinking that that's one that might not be high up on the "Must Have" list for wizard spell books.


----------



## Bullgrit

Can a thief do anything with/to this door?

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Stoat covered the spell options available in 1e to characters of the dungeon's recommended levels pretty well.  Even the pregens for this dungeon have everything they need to make this dungeon relatively easy. If you make a 6 person party from the pregens you can have this mix of character options and magic items:

 # 1, human mage 14, items: displacer cloak, +1 ring of protection, +2 dagger, and wand of magic missiles
 # 2, human cleric 14, items: +3 plate mail, +3 shield, and +3 mace
 # 3, human paladin 12, items: +1 plate mail, +2 shield, +1 flaming sword, and ring of fire resistance
 # 8, dwarf fighter 7, thief 8, items: cloak of protection +3, ring of invisibility, +1 short sword, +1 dagger, and bag of holding (largest)
 # 10, half-elf cleric 5, ranger 7, mage 6, items: +2 chain mall, +1 shield, levitation boots, and +1 mace
 # 12, human mage 9, items: +4 ring of protection, wand of magic detection, and rope of climbing 

The underlined bits are the most relevant aspects of this party.  As noted, between 1 and 2 you have the spells.  10 and 12 are back-up casters to cover incidental healing and to load up on _monster summoning_ for trap finding.  3 is one of the few character types who can physically harm the demi-lich.  While he doesn't have the weapon necessary to do so (none of the pregens do) he does have a permanent source of magical flame to deal with the fake lich's webs- and anything else that needs burning.  As for a weapon to hit the demi-lich with, he's got a 1 in 3 chance to grab the right one in the crypt- unfortunately he's screwed if he grabs the wrong one AND those aren't good odds.  

Item-wise, in addition to the flaming sword, you've got a large bag of holding for all your loot OR any supplies/mining equipment you'd care to bring (it IS carried by a dwarf). Boots of levitation for floating over all those pits. A wand of magic detection for liberal, paranoid use (and subsequent disappointment/annoyance since it simply won't work half the frakking time!).  Finally, a rope of climbing to act as a 60' hand extension, to easily snag any runaway floaters (which we'll cover in the next room), or to tie off those summoned trap-finders- in case the paladin has a problem with your trap-finding methods. 

Finally, you've also got a dwarf and a half-elf for all their racial detection abilities.  Half-elves are as good as elves at finding secret doors.  I'd have preferred an extra elf-type, since finding those doors is so vital, but all the others have fairly useless gear compared to the ones I picked.  Plus you have _true-seeing_ AND _knock_ available.  _Knock_ will open secret doors even if you haven't "found" them- for those areas where you'll know one is there.


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> Can a thief do anything with/to this door?



A 1st edition thief? He could try hiding in its shadow. 

Depending on whether you consider the slot system to be a lock you could allow one to figure out how it works. Or at least figure out that the keys are swords.


I described the door to a friend who'd never done the Tomb, and he said he would have assumed that there were three specific swords in the Tomb that the party would need to find, not just any swords.


Hmm. About the nature of the door:


> 24. ADAMANTITE DOOR: Although it is marked secret, it is very evident; the marking is simply to make certain that its actual nature is known.



The description of the Knock spell says:


> The knock spell will open stuck or held or wizard-locked doors. It will also open barred or otherwise locked doors. It causes secret doors to open.



Is that what the description of the door is referring to?

Edit: probably not now that I think about it, since the timeline of the books being published doesn't really make it possible.


----------



## Bullgrit

> And why is this marked "S" for secret on the map? "To make certain that its actual nature is known." What the hell does that mean?



I always figured that was referring to the fact that this wasn't just a normal door -- that the door itself was the numbered area, not the hallway. At the time this was written/published, D&D dungeon maps legends only had two door symbols -- the little rectangle and the S. (Later, they added a dot in the little rectangle to represent a locked door, which would have been good for this situation.)

But even so, using the S to show this is an unusual door is kind of silly considering there are other unusual doors in the Tomb that don't use the S -- they just use a number.

You know how when you are writing up an adventure for your own personal use, how you write information and descriptions and notes in sort of incomplete ways? You know the details in your head, and really all you need on paper in front of you at the game session is little reminders. You might have a locked door in one room, with the key hidden in another room. You might not write in your notes for either room that the door and key are related, because you just know it. You don't need that level of detail for your own use -- you *know* your adventure.

I think _Tomb of Horrors_ suffers a bit from this kind of "writing for oneself" mindset. For example, I bet Gygax could exactly explain how he intended things like this juggernaut trap to work. But he was used to writing up dungeons for his own personal use, and so was used to writing up just napkin-sketch-like descriptions. 

ToH was one of the very first he wrote up for use by others, so he probably didn't really appreciate the need for full detail, yet. It's obvious that he tried to write for an audience other than him, but he didn't go far enough. 

D&D/RPG tournaments were still pretty new at the time of ToH. So what we're seeing here, with the vagueness of much of the write up for the Tomb is simply a result of the lack of experience (for *everyone*) with writing D&D adventures for use by a wide audience.

And again, this vagueness is probably all cool for a home game where most DMs just wanted a base frame to put their own details on. But for a tournament game, especially one billed as an ultimate test of Player skill compared to each other, the bare and vague information is actually a problem.

Bullgrit


----------



## jmucchiello

Bullgrit said:


> Can a thief do anything with/to this door?




He can state unequivocally that he doesn't _think_ the door is trapped.


----------



## Stoat

This week is shaping up to be a heller for me, and Area 25 is complicated.  I won't get to it until Saturday at the earliest.

So let me ask a subquestion:  The _Tomb of Horrors_ was originally a tournament module.  A few posters have suggested that playing the module at a con might be different than playing it at home.

I've played any number of con games, but my only experience with tournament games has been playing the Cheesegrinder at Dragon*Con.  What would the difference be between playing through the Tomb in a tournament and playing it through it in your basement.  Obviously, there would be a time limit at the con, but is there anything else that would be different?


----------



## Freakohollik

I've never played in a con, but you'd be forced to use the PreGens. In a home game, you'd probably use your own character.


----------



## pemerton

I've played in con tournaments - both D&D and Chaosium games - but the criteria for scoring generally had heavy characterisation elements, and much more global success criteria than the detailed scoring rules I've seen in other early D&D tournament modules (eg the Ghost Tower).

I think the time limit would make a big difference, given what this thread has shown about the pedantic style of play needed to systematically progress through the tomb. But the pressure to adopt that style would be great, given that PC deaths, having PCs lose their equipment, etc are all the sorts of things one would expect to count against you in a tournament.


----------



## Squire James

Wow, so far it looks like the thread died before it got to the logical end!  Given the subject matter, I shouldn't be surprised I guess!


----------



## jonesy

Nah. It's not dead. It's just taking a nap before entering the final sections. 

I can't think of anything apart from the pregens and the stricter time limit that would be different at a con game. I might have said that it would be harder to DM for, but that's not really the case if the DM prepares for it beforehand (like he should anyway). And, as has been noted multiple times, many of the rooms depend on DM interpretation and how he runs them, which would still be the same case.


----------



## Bullgrit

It's not dead. It's just resting.

Remarkable thread, the Tomb of Horrors. Beautiful discussion, isn't it?

Stoat, (the OP), said he was really busy last week, and so couldn't continue then. Hopefully we'll get to the next section soon. If Stoat can't get back into this, and he doesn't mind, I can take up the pace for him.

Bullgrit


----------



## Orius

I think you make a good point about the Tomb's writing to be something like a DM's personal notes rather than being presented in a more standardized format.  It was after all, one of the first published D&D modules, so naturally there's not going to be standardized stat blocks or the like here.  Nor does it seem to have the more professional editing of later modules.


----------



## Stoat

I'm not dead, yet!  I've just been getting my ass kicked at work.  Also, there's a lot going on in Area 25.  I'll do 25A, 25B and 25C today, and pick up 25D later.

*Area 25. The Pillared Throne Room*

This is the largest room in the dungeon.  It is 110 feet square with a ceiling 30 feet high.  Scores of huge pillars, each about 3 feet across, fill the room.   The pillars and floor are decorated in pastel colors. 

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic25.jpg

Anybody who touches a pillar starts levitating uncontrollably.  The floating PC bobs across the ceiling "just as a child's helium balloon."  There's a light breeze up there, and it gradually pulls the PC to either the northeastern or the northwestern corner of the chamber.  What's in those corners?  A familiar face!

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic6.jpg

Yep.  There are devil faces in each corner.  The one to the west is green.  Anybody that comes within 3 feet of it is automatically sucked in and teleported back to Area 3 in front of the original GDD.  The PC will be naked, their stuff is with Acererak in Area 33.

The devil face to the east is "bluish."  Anybody who comes within 3 feet of this face is teleported to Area 27A.  They get to keep their clothes.

The southeast corner of the room contains a huge, glowing orange gem.  Cinders, ashes, charred bones, burnt skulls and fire-damaged clothing, armor and gear surrounds the gem.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic25c.jpg

The gem is evil and magic.  Strongly so.  Any character who uses "detecting" magic on the gem gets the sense that it is wish related.

The bad kind of wish related.  Like a malevolent genie, the gem reverses and perverts the wishes of those who would use it.  Wishing on the gem brings doom and evil to all.  Worse, as soon as it "grants" a wish, the gem starts pulsing with hot, red light.  The DM is instructed to count down from 10.  When the countdown ends, the gem explodes, and anybody within 15 feet dies (no save).  The gem reforms 1 week later.

There's a big black throne on a dias in the south part of the room.  Let's talk about it later.

IMO:  Here's what Acererak's riddle has to say about Area 25: "into the columned hall you'll come, and there the throne that's key and keyed."  On the one hand, there's no mention of the other two traps here (the floaty pillars and the monkey paw gem).  On the other hand, the riddle's silence is itself a clue.  Leave that mess alone and proceed directly to the Throne that's Key and Keyed!

I don't think there's any clue to warn the PC's that the pillars have a levitation effect.  They'll have to find out the hard way.  The module does not say how fast a floating PC moves toward the devil faces or which devil face the PC moves toward.  Presumably, a floating PC drifts toward the nearest face, but the speed that PC moves is pretty important.  The longer it takes to drift to a face, the longer the PC's buddies have to try and save him.

The devil faces (Areas 25A and 25B) are not technically deathtraps.  Although as somebody noted above, donating all your gear to Acererak is almost a fate worse than death.  Also, note that the face in Area 25A deposits the naked PC right in front of the original GGD back in Area 6.  A player might think that the GDD serves to teleport lost PC's back to Area 25.  It does not.  Play one of the henchmen for now and roll up a new character for next week.

All in all, the business with the pillars is probably not too much to worry about.  I expect that many PC's will never touch a pillar.  Nobody will touch one after the first PC starts floating.  Assuming the floating PC is moving at a slow pace, there should be time for the party to tether him before he winds up getting sucked into one of the devil faces.  

As for the gem.  I haven't been too impressed with the illustrations in the module, but the picture for Area 25C is great.  That gem is clearly bad news, and anybody who touches it deserves what's coming.  I guess some players would be tempted to try wishing on the gem.  After all, there have been other helpful items scattered around the Tomb.  The module leaves the consequences of such a wish entirely up to the DM.  

At this point, I expect the whole party to start running every time the DM starts counting down from 10.  I doubt many folks get blasted to ash when the gem explodes.


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> Anybody who touches a pillar starts levitating uncontrollably.  The floating PC bobs across the ceiling "just as a child's helium balloon."  There's a light breeze up there, and it gradually pulls the PC to either the northeastern or the northwestern corner of the chamber.  What's in those corners?  A familiar face!
> 
> ...
> 
> All in all, the business with the pillars is probably not too much to worry about.  I expect that many PC's will never touch a pillar.  Nobody will touch one after the first PC starts floating.  Assuming the floating PC is moving at a slow pace, there should be time for the party to tether him before he winds up getting sucked into one of the devil faces.



And here at last we get to the moment of shame. And thanks by the way for rubbing it in like that. 

The second party I played the Tomb in entered area 25 with five PC's (a ranger, a druid, a thief, a mage, and me with a fighter). We'd already lost a donkey, three NPC hirelings, a PC cleric, and the other PC fighter.

What happened next went something like this:
1. The ranger, being the party leader and the most experienced player, decides that we head to A (the green devil teleporter) and get prepared to enter the 26 room next to it (since there are two rooms designated 26).
2. The ranger says: "We start tying ropes across the pillars in front of the door " (the door to 26).
3. The DM says: "All of you help him?"
4. Everyone looks at the player of the ranger and then nods. The first dumb thing has just occurred.
5. The DM says: "As you touch the pillars.."
6. A simultaneous groan escapes from every player.
7. The DM continues describing what happens as we all float right into A, and get sucked in. As we were all already right next to it there was no time really do anything. The DM decreed that we hadn't even managed to get a single rope set up, since we'd had to touch the pillars to do that.
8. We plop out in front of area 6.
9. The most amazingly stupid thing occurs. We decide, as one, to jump right 'back' in, with the idea that it would take us back to the room and our equipment. It seemed perfectly logical at the time.
10. 5 dead PC's.
11. Stunned silence. Then someone, I can't remember who, makes the comment: "And I used to think that the Head of Vecna story was stupid".


----------



## Squire James

Bullgrit said:


> It's not dead. It's just resting.
> 
> Remarkable thread, the Tomb of Horrors. Beautiful discussion, isn't it?
> 
> Stoat, (the OP), said he was really busy last week, and so couldn't continue then. Hopefully we'll get to the next section soon. If Stoat can't get back into this, and he doesn't mind, I can take up the pace for him.
> 
> Bullgrit




Ah, I see.  It was asleep, but it was lucky enough that the juggernaut didn't run over it...


----------



## jmucchiello

Stoat said:


> At this point, I expect the whole party to start running every time the DM starts counting down from 10.  I doubt many folks get blasted to ash when the gem explodes.



I haven't read the module in decades but I could swear those 10 counts are supposed to be done silently.


----------



## Rogue Agent

jmucchiello said:


> I haven't read the module in decades but I could swear those 10 counts are supposed to be done silently.




Page 6: "NOW BEGIN COUNTING SLOWLY TO 10, and the odds on that there will be a stampede up the stairs to get away."

It seems to be fairly explicit that these counts are supposed to be out loud.

And they do work very well when used as such.


----------



## Bullgrit

> * Area 25. The Pillared Throne Room*



Questions:







			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Yep. There are devil faces in each corner. The one to the west is green. Anybody that comes within 3 feet of it is automatically sucked in and teleported back to Area 3 in front of the original GDD. The PC will be naked, their stuff is with Acererak in Area 33.



Are the PCs still floating after they teleport out of the pillared throne room? The text doesn’t say one way or another.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> The devil face to the east is "bluish." Anybody who comes within 3 feet of this face is teleported to Area 27A. They get to keep their clothes.



_Do_ they get to keep their clothes/equipment? 







			
				Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> B. *Devil Face:* This is identical to A. above, but it is tinged with a bluish color over the green and any character drawn into this mouth opening is teleported into location 27.A. (q.v).






			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> The southeast corner of the room contains a huge, glowing orange gem. Cinders, ashes, charred bones, burnt skulls and fire-damaged clothing, armor and gear surrounds the gem.



Nice to see a trap is actually labeled as a trap. Compare this death trap to the sleep gas hall/juggernaut and the green slime tapestry. Those gave no warning at all that there was anything dangerous, and yet they killed with no save. But here we have a no-save-kill trap that not only advertises its presence, but it gives a countdown warning.

Also note:
Green slime tapestry: “Covered characters are turned to green slime and gone, with no recourse possible due to the amount of slime.”

Juggernaut: “Everything it rolls over is squashed to a pulp. There is no appeal.”

Gem: “The stone then explodes, absolutely killing any character within 15’ radius with a wave of searing radiations and flames.”

Does this mean that those killed by the gem have a recourse and/or can appeal the death?  I’m kidding around here, of course, but the omission of such a “you’re dead and that’s that” phrase here is interesting. But then, maybe "absolutely" serves that purpose in the gem text.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> _Do_ they get to keep their clothes/equipment?



I think they do in the blue one, since it's only mentioned on the green one. But I'll get back to that once the thread reaches the place it takes them to. I have major problems with it.



Bullgrit said:


> Questions:Are the PCs still floating after they teleport out of the pillared throne room? The text doesn’t say one way or another.



I always assumed they'd stop floating. It says it spits them out. If they were floating, they might end up dying of hunger up in the ceiling (without remove curse or dispel magic). Also, the description of the blue teleport location seems to think otherwise. Maybe. But more on that later too.


----------



## Stoat

@ Bullgrit.  The module is not perfectly clear, but I assume that PC's who go through the bluish devil face keep their gear because the text doesn't say otherwise.  Generally, the module is pretty explicit when the PC's go one way and their gear goes another.

I'm of two minds about the countdowns.  On the one hand, they immediately grab everybody's attention and force the players to stop fafffing around making Monty Python jokes and do something.  They also inject a nice dose of tension into the game.

On the other hand, the countdown is a very, very gamey mechanic.  If immersion or verisimilitude are your goals, you won't like it.  I also tend to think that countdowns can be  too suggestive.  In other words, as soon as the players hear the DM counting, they know trouble is afoot.  An element of surprise is lost.  Finally, countdowns present some logistical difficulty.  IME the players start asking questions and declaring actions as soon as the DM starts counting.  It's a little tricky to keep counting while also adjudicating PC actions that would only take a few seconds of real time.


----------



## Bullgrit

Another thing to consider:

The assumption seems to be that the gem will be wished upon and the explosion triggered right there in the pillared chamber. But there is nothing preventing the PCs from pocketing the wish gem, (like they would a ring of wishes), and the whole event happening outside the Tomb at some far later date.

In the hands of careful and devious PCs, the wish gem could be an awesome one-shot weapon.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> In the hands of careful and devious PCs, the wish gem could be an awesome one-shot weapon.



Or turn a later more innocent adventure into a TPK.


----------



## Rogue Agent

Stoat said:


> On the other hand, the countdown is a very, very gamey mechanic.  If immersion or verisimilitude are your goals, you won't like it.




Speaking as someone who likes immersion and versimilitude a lot, I'd disagree. If anything I think it heightens immersion by eradicating the normally lethargic and disconnected mode of interacting with mechanics (in which a 10 second combat round could take 10 minutes to resolve) and forces a real-time response.



> I also tend to think that countdowns can be  too suggestive.  In other words, as soon as the players hear the DM counting, they know trouble is afoot.




In general, I think the countdowns in the Tomb follow clear signs that trouble is afoot: The rumbling starts in area 2. The floor begins to slant in area 16. The imminent (albeit illusory) collapse in area 18. The pulsing light of the gem.

Area 18 is particularly notable because it is a fake alarm: If the DM reaches the end of the count and the PCs haven't done anything, there is no consequence. 



> IME the players start asking questions and declaring actions as soon as the DM starts counting.  It's a little tricky to keep counting while also adjudicating PC actions that would only take a few seconds of real time.




The module tells you how to handle that: You resolve the actions after you finish counting.

I recommend prepping a "countdown sheet" with the numbers 1 thru 10 down one side. As you start counting have a pencil in hand; jot down names next to the numbers as people shout out their intentions.

The only action that matters in all of these cases is movement: If the PCs do anything other than movement, they may succeed but it will probably not have any impact on the outcome. (It's not that different from adjudicating actions in a system that requires action declaration at the beginning of each round. You're just ramping up the tension during the declaration phase and tweaking the resolution based on the quickness of response.)

The only adjustment I've made in practice is that I will answer observational questions while continuing the count. Thus:

DM: There's a deep rumble. Everything starts shaking. 10...9...
Wizard: What's happening?!
DM: The wall behind you is sliding shut. 8...
Fighter: ! I start running for the exit!
DM: 7...
Wizard: Does it look like it's going to close all the way?
DM: Probably. 6... 
Wizard: I run! I run!

And so forth.

This is another example of where I feel the module does a good job of introducing its conventions and then sticking to them. It introduces the concept of the countdown and then plays around with it to good effect.


----------



## jmucchiello

Rogue Agent said:


> Page 6: "NOW BEGIN COUNTING SLOWLY TO 10, and the odds on that there will be a stampede up the stairs to get away."
> 
> It seems to be fairly explicit that these counts are supposed to be out loud.



Perhaps I'm thinking of a different module of the era.


----------



## Gentlegamer

jonesy said:


> And here at last we get to the moment of shame. And thanks by the way for rubbing it in like that.
> 
> The second party I played the Tomb in entered area 25 with five PC's (a ranger, a druid, a thief, a mage, and me with a fighter). We'd already lost a donkey, three NPC hirelings, a PC cleric, and the other PC fighter.
> 
> What happened next went something like this:
> 1. The ranger, being the party leader and the most experienced player, decides that we head to A (the green devil teleporter) and get prepared to enter the 26 room next to it (since there are two rooms designated 26).
> 2. The ranger says: "We start tying ropes across the pillars in front of the door " (the door to 26).
> 3. The DM says: "All of you help him?"
> 4. Everyone looks at the player of the ranger and then nods. The first dumb thing has just occurred.
> 5. The DM says: "As you touch the pillars.."
> 6. A simultaneous groan escapes from every player.
> 7. The DM continues describing what happens as we all float right into A, and get sucked in. As we were all already right next to it there was no time really do anything. The DM decreed that we hadn't even managed to get a single rope set up, since we'd had to touch the pillars to do that.
> 8. We plop out in front of area 6.
> 9. The most amazingly stupid thing occurs. We decide, as one, to jump right 'back' in, with the idea that it would take us back to the room and our equipment. It seemed perfectly logical at the time.
> 10. 5 dead PC's.
> 11. Stunned silence. Then someone, I can't remember who, makes the comment: "And I used to think that the Head of Vecna story was stupid".



A TPK. You lost. And yet, you remember this episode so distinctly.

As I've said, sometimes the most fun you have is when you lose. I think Tomb of Horrors ought to be evaluated with this in mind.


----------



## Rogue Agent

Gentlegamer said:


> As I've said, sometimes the most fun you have is when you lose. I think Tomb of Horrors ought to be evaluated with this in mind.




This is something I suspect is often lost in an era when a TPK can "ruin" a GM's prepared plot.


----------



## Hussar

Yes, because back in the day, games had no plots or stories, just a series of random events loosely bound together by character...


----------



## Ranes

Rogue Agent said:


> This is something I suspect is often lost in an era when a TPK can "ruin" a GM's prepared plot.




There's a thread in the 4e form at the moment about TPKs that you may find interesting.

That TPKs can render GM preparations, plot, campaign backgrounds, whatever redundant is nothing new. But that is _in itself_ no reason to avoid them, as Gentlegamer points out.


----------



## Rogue Agent

Hussar said:


> Yes, because back in the day, games had no plots or stories, just a series of random events loosely bound together by character...




Looking at your posting history, it doesn't really surprise me that the only two options you can imagine are "GM preps a plot" and "random events".

Fortunately, however, RPGs are not curtailed to such narrow horizons.


----------



## Stoat

Heyguys, if you want to talk about plotted vs. unplotted adventures, would you kindly fork off a new thread?  I'm here to talk about the Tomb of Horrors.

*Area 25D.  Ebony Dais and Silver Throne*

An area 30 feet square in the center of the south wall of the Pillared Throne Room is dominated by a huge black dais.  Although the subheading for this section says the throne is silver, the text says the throne is obsidian inlaid with silver and ivory skulls.  Either way, it's very Brutal Legend.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic25d.jpg

There's a gold crown and an electrum scepter sitting on the throne.  Both radiate magic.  One end of the scepter is gold, the other is silver.  There's also a little silver crown inlaid on the throne.  You can see it in the picture.

When worn, the crown "negates the pillars' levitation effects" and allows the wearer to see within Area 25 as if it were broad daylight.  However, "outside this place" the wearer is blind.  The person wearing the crown knows that it can only be removed by touching it with the scepter.

Accordingly, touching the gold crown with the gold end of the scepter will allow the wearer to remove the crown.  Touching the gold crown with the silver end of the scepter turns the wearer into nasty, fetid dust (no save).  

Touching the silver crown inlaid on the throne with the silver end of the scepter opens a path forward.  The throne sinks into the floor, and there's a tunnel behind it.  There does not seem to be any ill effect if the silver crown is touched with the gold end of the scepter.

The crown and scepter are worth a total of 40,000 gp, but demons will chase after anybody who takes them out of the Tomb.

IMO:  "Into the columned hall you'll come, and there the throne that's key and keyed."  The players found a key back in Area 19, but that's not what the riddle is talking about.  The key to the throne is actually the scepter.

On one hand, the bit with the scepter and the crowns is pretty straightforward.  The silver end of the scepter goes with the silver crown.  The gold end of the scepter goes with the gold crown.   On the other hand, I don't see any clue, hint, riddle or other indication that a group of clever PC's could use to work this out.  It seems like random guessing or divination magic is the order of the day.  Have I missed something?


----------



## amerigoV

Stoat said:


> On one hand, the bit with the scepter and the crowns is pretty straightforward.  The silver end of the scepter goes with the silver crown.  The gold end of the scepter goes with the gold crown.   On the other hand, I don't see any clue, hint, riddle or other indication that a group of clever PC's could use to work this out.  It seems like random guessing or divination magic is the order of the day.  Have I missed something?





I remember getting to this point in the 3.5 version of the Tomb. For some reason, I thought we messed up, but I do not recall anyone getting "pfft'd" - so maybe the DM was nice. We then figured it out how to get the crown off and move on. 

Other than the Gold to Gold, Silver to Silver logic with some potential help form divination magic, I do not think there are any other clues.


Happy Halloween - go kill some PCs today!


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 25D. Ebony Dais and Silver Throne*





			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Touching the gold crown with the silver end of the scepter turns the wearer into nasty, fetid dust (no save).



And "wishes not withstanding." It's interesting how for some things, Gygax wanted a death quite definite and permanent.

At this stage of the Tomb, why would anyone put a crown on their head? I would fully expect merely placing it on your top to snuff you out. Fortunately for anyone so incautious, they get a second chance to make a better choice.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> The crown and scepter are worth a total of 40,000 gp, but demons will chase after anybody who takes them out of the Tomb.



Curious: my copy of ToH says 25,000 for the crown and 12,500 for the scepter. Were you just rounding off the value, or does your text say 40k exactly?

And a Type I demon, (or two), going after level 10-14 adventurers? Pshaw. Easy money.



			
				amerigoV said:
			
		

> Other than the Gold to Gold, Silver to Silver logic with some potential help form divination magic, I do not think there are any other clues.



The gold-to-gold and silver-to-silver touching does seem logical, (when we know that is the correct pattern), but with no clues or hints, the PCs really don't know if this crown and scepter deal is a logical gimmick. I mean, there are so many illogical gimmicks, (the tapestry is really green slime, etc.), throughout this Tomb that I don't see how thinking about this logically is the logical thing to do. 

<shrug> But this is not a bad gimmick for the Tomb. I'd say it's decent enough.

Bullgrit


----------



## Loincloth of Armour

Stoat said:


> On one hand, the bit with the scepter and the crowns is pretty straightforward. The silver end of the scepter goes with the silver crown. The gold end of the scepter goes with the gold crown. On the other hand, I don't see any clue, hint, riddle or other indication that a group of clever PC's could use to work this out. It seems like random guessing or divination magic is the order of the day. Have I missed something?




Nope, but for a TOH death-trap, it is pretty logical and straight forward. It is tough but fair.

When my group ran the dungeon:

Player: "I reach out with my stick and lift the crown off the throne."
DM: "The crown lifts from the seat, resting heavily on the end of your stick. So, does anyone wear the crown?"
Players: /unimpressed stare
DM: "Right."

/A few minutes of playing with the crown and scepter does not end with horrible death. Still... no one puts the crown on.
Player: "You say there's a symbol of the crown on the throne?"
DM: "A symbol of 'A' crown anyway. It's done in silver."
Player: "Still holding the crown on the end of my pole, I'm going to touch the crown to the symbol of the crown on the throne. Then I'm backing away. Quickly."
DM: "Where are the rest of you while he's doing this?"
Other Players: "Far away."

DM: "Hot, sudden death does not come to claim you... at this point. Touching the crown to the throne appears to not do anything."
Player: "Hmm... anyone want to sit on the throne?"
Other players: "No way in Hell."
Player: "Thought so. Describe the scepter again."
DM: /description
Player: "Hey... silver end? And the symbol on the throne is worked in...?"
DM: "Silver."
Players: "..."
Player A: "No way."
Player B: "Couldn't be that easy."
Player C: "Has to be a trap."
Player D: "I put the scepter down on a cloak, the silvered end sticking out beyond the edge of the cloak. Then I put the 10' pole beside the scepter. I wrap the cloak around the scepter and the pole, and tie it tight with a piece of rope. This way the scepter is tightly held with the silvered end out, but 10 feet away from us."
DM: "Okay."
Player: "Then we all back away. We all hide, and the fighter puts his shield up facing the throne, and I hunch behind it. Carefully reaching out with the pole, I touch the silver end to the symbol of the crown."

DM: "With a subtle groan, the throne... [pause as we all tense]... sinks into the floor, revealing a hidden passageway behind it."

Players: ".... it worked?"
DM: "Appears that way."
Players: "Son of a bitch. Silver to silver, that actually made sense."
DM: "Perhaps. So, who's going to wear the crown?"
Players: "NO ONE!"
DM: /sigh


----------



## Bullgrit

> =Loincloth of Armour]When my group ran the dungeon:
> 
> ...



Awesome!

* * *

I read, (somewhere that I can't find right now with a quick search), that in a tournament game, the PCs used this crown and scepter gimmick to defeat the demi-lich.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

As written the crown/scepter actually makes one of the best weapons in the game. Get it on someones head, and they are pretty much permanently blind. Touch it with the wrong end, and they're dead. In the hands of someone skilled in reverse pickpocketing you could really wreck a campaign world. And I agree with Bullgrit about the threat of the demons. All they are is a pool of extra experience.

Besides, since "The person wearing the crown knows that it can only be removed by touching it with the scepter", they might even freely let you have the chance of using the wrong end on them.


----------



## Bullgrit

Bullgrit said:
			
		

> I read, (somewhere that I can't find right now with a quick search), that in a tournament game, the PCs used this crown and scepter gimmick to defeat the demi-lich.



Found the reference, from EGG himself:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/76849-gary-gygax-q-part-vi-2.html#post1398287


			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> Don't confuse the RttToH, which I did not write, with the original ToH. In the latter there are no mechanical bucking broncos or green slime tapestries. Of course the incautious will find plenty of certain death opportunities in the original adventure...
> 
> Only the most veteran of my group attempted to explore the ToH with their regular PCs. Son Ernie and Terry Kuntz retreated when they discovered how difficult and deadly a dungeon their PC faced. Rob Kuntz with PC Robilar made it to the end, losing some dozen or so orc troops along the initial route, and when faced with the rising skull of the demi-lich did the logical thing for his character--scoooped up the treasure and retreated in utmost haste. Note all of those forays were by single PCs, Robilar accompanied by flunkies.
> 
> A number of large parties of PCs made the journey into the tomb, some with many survivors, and two I know of defeated the demi-lich. The most innovative solution was by a tournament group that used the reverse end of the scepter to touch the crown gained with it in the throne room. When the skull arose one of the PCs popped the crown on it, another used the scepter, and the demi-lich was powder. Russ Stambaugh was their DM, and when he told me what they had managed to pull off, I awarded them first place hands down.
> 
> The adventure is meant to be deadly, kill off all the unwary PCs, and make the survivors paranoid. It is best played with characters created for the adventure, not the regulars in a campaign, as the ToH is unforgiving and often results in TPK.



http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/125997-gary-gygax-q-part-ix-35.html#post2533612


			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> What I say about nay-sayers is, pluck 'em! They can express their opinion, and so what? I don't need to defend anything. Some hundreds of thousands of PCs have adventured in the ToH, and not many have made it successfully, so it is most demanding of real skill.
> 
> You can quote me from this post, if you like, for we ran the module as a tournament at a Spring or Autumn Revel, or a Winter Fantasy con here back in the day. There were, IIRR, eight teams, and one of them absolutely obliterated the demi-lich by using the crown, putting it on his head, and touching the "wrong end" of the scepter to it. Russ Stambaugh was the DM for that team, and he asked me if that would work. I was astounded at how clever the players had been, said so, and gave them the top spot for their innovation. Again, as I recall, several of the other eight teams made the cut, destroyed Acecerak. those were veteran dungeoneers, of curse.
> 
> Ernie playing Tenser didn't go for the situation and cleared out. Rob playing Robilar made it to the end, grabbed all the loot, and didn't bother fighting the demi-lich--not much profit in that by his estimation, not with all the treasure in his bag of holding. I have run a party of local gamers through the ToH, and they made it with the loss of a couple of the PCs. It was many years ago, so I do not recall player names and details--way too many gaming sessions under my belt in the 33 years I have been a GM for such recollections...



Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

jonesy said:
			
		

> And I agree with Bullgrit about the threat of the demons. All they are is a pool of extra experience.



Worth about 1,635 xp each, (3,270 for two). Or about 1.3%, (counting two demons), what a 10th-level fighter needs to reach 11th level. Compare that to the [near] 40,000gp treasure value of the crown and scepter -- about 12 times the xp of the demons.

Yeah, it's worth taking the loot. 

*Edit: Although, the ToH text says the DM should award only half the xp for gold recovered from the Tomb -- 1xp per 2gp. But the Players wouldn't know of this alteration from the standard.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

[MENTION=31216]Bullgrit[/MENTION]:  I misread my copy of the module.  You are correct that the crown is worth 25,000 and the scepter 12,500.  For whatever reason, I thought the scepter was worth 15K.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> I misread my copy of the module. You are correct that the crown is worth 25,000 and the scepter 12,500. For whatever reason, I thought the scepter was worth 15K.



OK. Not a big deal, but would have been noteworthy if we found something different between our copies.

Bullgrit


----------



## Hussar

I'm curious about the group that used the crown on the demi-lich.  That I'd like to hear more details about.  First off - how did they know how the crown worked?  Secondly, why did they do in the skull in that fashion?  How many PC's/NPC's did they lose first?

I mean, you'd pretty much have to lose someone to the crown to know that it dusts you.  Then you'd have to lose someone to the demi-lich because, well, most groups are just going to pound on the demi-lich the first time it rises off the ground and get someone sucked into the gem.

I suppose we'll never know.


----------



## Orius

Gary also mentions that group in the intro to RttToH.  That story must be fairly well-known enough because TVTropes lists it as a Crowning Moment of Awesome on the page for the Tomb

(Yup the old Tomb has its own page over there.  I think the only other classic module that has a special page all to itself is the Temple of Elemental Evil).


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> I'm curious about the group that used the crown on the demi-lich.  That I'd like to hear more details about.  First off - how did they know how the crown worked?  Secondly, why did they do in the skull in that fashion?  How many PC's/NPC's did they lose first?
> 
> I mean, you'd pretty much have to lose someone to the crown to know that it dusts you.  Then you'd have to lose someone to the demi-lich because, well, most groups are just going to pound on the demi-lich the first time it rises off the ground and get someone sucked into the gem.
> 
> I suppose we'll never know.




Divination magic could tell you that Bad Things happen when you reverse the polarity on the crown, as could experimenting with minions.

And once you reach Acererak's chamber, it's not unreasonable to assume that the only animate thing in the room is probably hideously dangerous.


----------



## amerigoV

Hussar said:


> I'm curious about the group that used the crown on the demi-lich.  That I'd like to hear more details about.  First off - how did they know how the crown worked?




I bet the exchange went something like this:

Player 1 (wearing the crown): I touch the silver end to the Crown.
DM: "Pfft - your dead. No save."
Player 1: "Crap, that sucks! I hate this module!'
Player 2: "Awesome! I'm grabbing the Crown and Scepter. A 'no save' killing magic item! And I loot Player 1's PC".


----------



## Hussar

amerigoV said:


> I bet the exchange went something like this:
> 
> Player 1 (wearing the crown): I touch the silver end to the Crown.
> DM: "Pfft - your dead. No save."
> Player 1: "Crap, that sucks! I hate this module!'
> Player 2: "Awesome! I'm grabbing the Crown and Scepter. A 'no save' killing magic item! And I loot Player 1's PC".




I'm thinking this is how it probably went.


----------



## jonesy

Does anyone remember if any of the versions tell estimates for how long the Tomb has been there before the party arrives?


----------



## Freakohollik

jonesy said:


> Does anyone remember if any of the versions tell estimates for how long the Tomb has been there before the party arrives?




I don't think any version explicitly states how long it's been there, but the 2e Return to the Tomb of Horrors adventure has Acererak's soul harvester almost full, so it's gotten a lot of adventurers by that point.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 26. Small Room With a Door of Electric Blue*

There are two 10 foot square rooms built onto the north wall of the Pillared Throne Room.  Each has a door that shimmers with blue light.  Each door glows even brighter when touched.  Both doors open easily.

The small room to the west is empty.  It contains only dust.

The small room to the east was a place where mummies are made.  A wooden sarcophagus rests atop a stone table.  Various chests, urns and coffers are scattered here and there.  The sarcophagus contains a mummified human corpse partially wrapped in bandages.  You can just barely see a huge amethyst under the wrappings that cover the corpse's head.

The gem has evil magic on it (although the module doesn't say if it detects as evil or not).  If anybody takes it, the mummy springs to life and attacks!  It's _hasted_, and it wears a _Ring of Fire Resistance_.

IMO:  There isn't much to say about this room.  It's an ambush combat encounter.  It probably won't TPK the party.  The exploding altar way back in Area 14 glowed with blue light, so maybe that's a clue.  Avoid glowing blue things.

It's interesting how many rooms in the Tomb are devoted to mummies and mummy preparation.  Area 18, Area 19, and now Area 26.  I wonder why?


----------



## MarkB

Stoat said:


> It's interesting how many rooms in the Tomb are devoted to mummies and mummy preparation.  Area 18, Area 19, and now Area 26.  I wonder why?




Am I recalling accurately in thinking that liches were reasonably well-established by the time this adventure came out, but this was the first introduction of the concept of demi-liches?

If so, this could all be part of the same attempt at misdirection, to ensure that the party are thinking of Acererak as some form of embalmed, preserved undead corpse, so they'll never suspect that bejewelled skull until it's too late.


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> The sarcophagus contains a mummified human corpse partially wrapped in bandages.  You can just barely see a huge amethyst under the wrappings that cover the corpse's head.



The mummy might as well be holding a sign saying 'the gem is a trap'.

What do you think the chances are that someone might find the ring? It doesn't say whether the ring is clearly visible or under wrappings. And the description of Detect Magic in 1e is vague enough that it makes me wonder whether the gem might mess up the detection.


----------



## Stoat

MarkB said:


> Am I recalling accurately in thinking that liches were reasonably well-established by the time this adventure came out, but this was the first introduction of the concept of demi-liches?
> 
> If so, this could all be part of the same attempt at misdirection, to ensure that the party are thinking of Acererak as some form of embalmed, preserved undead corpse, so they'll never suspect that bejewelled skull until it's too late.




I think you're right that Acererak was the first demi-lich.

You may be on to something with your second point as well.  I'm starting to think that the theme of the ToH is "nothing is what it seems to be."


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> I'm starting to think that the theme of the ToH is "nothing is what it seems to be."



If that was the theme, Players could use it to logically figure things out. I think the actual theme of the Tomb is:

If it looks dangerous, it's a trap.
If it looks safe, it's a trap.
If it looks neither dangerous, nor safe, or really like anything notable at all, it's still probably a trap.
If it turns out to not be a trap, it's a trap.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

That's funny, I thought the theme of the Tomb was:

"Look. Look at that. Isn't it interesting? It's totally cool. You want to touch it, don't you? Go on, touch it. You want to. You really really want to. It's ok. Just walk over to it, reach out, and.. AHAHAHAHAH!!! GOTCHA!! ...  Next, please."

Edit: I just got the strangest feeling that I've already used that line somewhere.


----------



## jmucchiello

This needs something....



Bullgrit said:


> If it looks dangerous, it's a trap.
> If it looks safe, it's a trap.
> If it looks neither dangerous, nor safe, or really like anything notable at all, it's still probably a trap.
> If it turns out to not be a trap, it's a trap.



If it's something Admiral Ackbar would say, "It's a trap!"


----------



## jonesy

I think I'll use this if I get a chance (and time) to run the Tomb ever again:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpj1DYK4fCs]Star Wars: Return of the Jedi - Into the Trap - YouTube[/ame]


----------



## Joshua Randall

Stoat said:


> *Small Room With a Door of Electric Blue*



... would make a great jazz song title.

= = =

I read the crown-vs.-demilich story (in the Return to... intro) a while back, but thinking about it now:

Game mechanically, how do you stick the crown on the demilich's skull? Do you just say you're doing that and the DM lets you? Do you need an attack roll? Or maybe an ability check (did those exist in 1e or not until 2e)? Perhaps some random percentile dice based on DM's whim?

It all feels so arbitrary, like a badly designed Sierra text adventure. Nothing can harm the demilich skull except these three silver-bullet spells... oh, and the crown. But that wasn't in the parser, we're just letting you do it because it seems cool to Gary.

Bah!

= = =

And speaking of bah!, the story about Robilar begs the question, did he get lucky by winning inititiative vs. the demilich, or what?! I mean, did he narrowly avoid the below ignominious alternative?

RJK: I scoop up all the treasure and teleport out.
EGG: Ooo... close... but the demilich beats your initiative. It sucks out your soul and you're dead.
RJK: Well, crap.


----------



## Freakohollik

Joshua Randall said:


> ... would make a great jazz song title.
> 
> = = =
> 
> I read the crown-vs.-demilich story (in the Return to... intro) a while back, but thinking about it now:
> 
> Game mechanically, how do you stick the crown on the demilich's skull? Do you just say you're doing that and the DM lets you? Do you need an attack roll? Or maybe an ability check (did those exist in 1e or not until 2e)? Perhaps some random percentile dice based on DM's whim?
> 
> It all feels so arbitrary, like a badly designed Sierra text adventure. Nothing can harm the demilich skull except these three silver-bullet spells... oh, and the crown. But that wasn't in the parser, we're just letting you do it because it seems cool to Gary.
> 
> Bah!
> 
> = = =
> 
> And speaking of bah!, the story about Robilar begs the question, did he get lucky by winning inititiative vs. the demilich, or what?! I mean, did he narrowly avoid the below ignominious alternative?
> 
> RJK: I scoop up all the treasure and teleport out.
> EGG: Ooo... close... but the demilich beats your initiative. It sucks out your soul and you're dead.
> RJK: Well, crap.




According to the module, the demilich doesn't activate unless you touch it. It's not designed to be run as a combat, it's designed to be a trap. Touch the skull and die, otherwise you're fine.


----------



## Joshua Randall

Freakohollik said:


> According to the module, the demilich doesn't activate unless you touch it. It's not designed to be run as a combat, it's designed to be a trap. Touch the skull and die, otherwise you're fine.



Huh. My faulty memory was that if you touched the treasure, that would also activate the skull.


----------



## jonesy

Joshua Randall said:


> Huh. My faulty memory was that if you touched the treasure, that would also activate the skull.



There is an effect which occurs upon touching the treasure, but it doesn't lead to anything if the characters ignore it. But if they attack..


----------



## MarkB

Then again, without prior knowledge on the subject of demi-liches, is there any easy way to tell that the jewel-encrusted skull isn't simply another piece of treasure?


----------



## Bullgrit

Guys, why don't we hold the demi-lich questions and such for when we get to that area. We've got some more death and destruction to cover before hashing out the final trap.

Bullgrit


----------



## shmoo2

Flatus Maximus said:


> OK, replace one non-elf PC with an elf. The probability of _not_ finding a secret door is: (5/6)*(4/6)*(5/6)^5, approximately 0.22. (The first two factors are the elf getting a roll just for being within 10' and a search.) If the door is concealed (not secret), the probability drops to: (5/6)*(3/6)*(5/6)^5, approximately 0.17.
> 
> This is probably a one-turn worst-case scenario, since the party might be larger (more PCs and/or hirelings), have more elves, or spend more time searching.




Sorry to necromancer an earlier section of this thread.

I think that the concerns about how easy/hard it is to find the secret doors in the Tomb are a result of the (also mentioned in this thread) linear design of the dungeon.

There are at least 8 secret doors in the Tomb that must be found, or the party can't proceed. This makes the party's ability to find secret doors, and the DM's reading of the rules about finding them to be vital. A DM who allows elves a chance to notice secret doors merely by passing by and allows rerolls to search for them actively will create a completely different experience in the Tomb from a DM who allows neither of those things.

Compare (again) Tomb of Horrors to Hidden Shrine of Tomoachan, which has lots and lots of secret doors, but only 1 (area 16) which must be found [and it's pretty clearly called out in the box text and illustration].


----------



## jmucchiello

My OD&D is a little rusty, but technically wasn't TOH written before the AD&D PHB? Based on how little editing seems to have been done on the adventure, could the number/frequency of necessary secret doors still reflect the older OD&D scheme of secret doors? Perhaps, also, the exploratory method of finding secret doors is still the norm. IOW, the players would tap walls looking for secrets and the DM would tell them when they might have found a secret door without regard to die rolls.


----------



## shmoo2

jmucchiello said:


> My OD&D is a little rusty, but technically wasn't TOH written before the AD&D PHB? Based on how little editing seems to have been done on the adventure, could the number/frequency of necessary secret doors still reflect the older OD&D scheme of secret doors? Perhaps, also, the exploratory method of finding secret doors is still the norm. IOW, the players would tap walls looking for secrets and the DM would tell them when they might have found a secret door without regard to die rolls.




Sure, though that's part of my point.

Some DMs will be using OD&D rules, some will be using portions of the AD&D rules (different portions for different DMs), some will be using only rulings about player ingenuity/ exploration with no rules at all.

Which rules (or _ad hoc_ rulings) are being used for secret doors will have a big impact on how the Tomb plays at the table, since the dungeon is very linear, and also has MANY secret doors which must be found to proceed.

Both of those features are normally regarded as bad design. 
In the Tomb of Horrors they are elements of the very specific experience created by this dungeon.


----------



## Bullgrit

> the players would tap walls looking for secrets and the DM would tell them when they might have found a secret door without regard to die rolls.



I first learned about the concept of finding secret doors and pit covers by tapping with a pole, (or something), here on ENWorld, recently. During my BD&D and AD&D gaming years, I thought the way to find a secret door was the DM rolling a 1 on 1d6 after the Player said he was searching. That's what the rules described and said; I never saw anything that explained rapping with a pole to find secret doors.

I had always pictured/imagined secret doors and pit covers to be constructed of the same material as the rest of the dungeon -- usually stone, (like this Tomb). And I never thought that secret doors might be made of different stuff, or might be different thickness, or whatever, than the wall it was mounted in.

It never occurred to me, and no one else ever told me, that tapping a secret door/pit cover might make a different sound than normal stone walls. I thought a 10' pole was used in hopes of "tricking" a pit trap to open before anyone stepped on it, not to discover sound differences.

I knew/could imagine many uses for a 10' pole, but direct secret door detection was never one of them. <shrug> Maybe my imagination was weak. Maybe my knowledge of engineering was lacking. Surely I'm not the only person to not know of these concepts.

So, if I had run this adventure back in the day, the Players would have had to get a 1 on 1d6 to find a secret door. If they had gone around tapping the walls, I would never have mentioned that they hear a difference while tapping on a secret door. Not because I would have been hardass or anything, but just because I had no concept of "secret doors sound different."

Bullgrit


----------



## jmucchiello

shmoo2 said:


> Which rules (or _ad hoc_ rulings) are being used for secret doors will have a big impact on how the Tomb plays at the table, since the dungeon is very linear, and also has MANY secret doors which must be found to proceed.
> 
> Both of those features are normally regarded as bad design.
> In the Tomb of Horrors they are elements of the very specific experience created by this dungeon.




See, I don't think linear design is bad when you are using exploratory secret door rules. An old style dungeon is a place you go to grab some treasure, leave and return to later. Where the module is weird is the fact that it is a tournament dungeon so leaving and returning is a problem. But as a home adventure, reentry is more feasible.

Having mandatory secret doors (in a modern dungeon) that the party only expects to enter once is poor design.


----------



## jmucchiello

Bullgrit said:


> I first learned about the concept of finding secret doors and pit covers by tapping with a pole, (or something), here on ENWorld, recently.



How were you "taught" D&D? Old school dungeoneering was far more about testing the players than testing the characters. But somehow that game never really made it into the rulebooks. And I've always wondered why.

That's not completely accurate (but the following is entirely from memory): In the AD&D DMG, the sample dungeon shows the party finding the secret passage way in "room 2" by asking pointed questions and acting on the DM's responses. 

Ignore my first paragraph, the issue is the rules don't make it clear that the results of logical actions take precedence over any abstract rules in the books. The 1 in 6 chance is there to cover the cases where the players aren't being specific about how they are searching for stuff. A secret door cannot hide from someone who persists in looking for it unless the trigger for the door is something the searcher is incapable of doing. IOW, if the bookcase swings around when you tip a specific book, clearing the shelves of all the books will do it too. And no matter how unobservant you are, if you clear the right shelf, the secret door is revealed.

I taught myself how to play D&D. And I always assumed the searching for secret doors was "automatic" if you could describe how you were searching and you were searching in the right place. My experience with coming here to ENWorld was to discover that was just how it was done. I didn't know there were grognards who didn't use these methods for finding dungeon secrets.

Didn't you ever have a chest with a secret compartment? We were always using a forearm or shortsword to make sure the outer and inner dimensions of a chest were similar.


----------



## Bullgrit

> if the bookcase swings around when you tip a specific book, clearing the shelves of all the books will do it too.



The vast majority of classic D&D adventures do not explain how any secret doors actually open. Usually, there's just an S on the map and that's it. Most secret doors are in an otherwise blank stone wall. No bookcases, no torch brackets, nothing mentioned in the adventure text that can be pushed, pulled, twisted, or tested.

Sure, as a DM, I usually came up with a way to open the doors, even if simply "push the door and it swings open." But I rarely encountered a Player who would spend time going around systematically pushing, pulling, and twisting everything to find secrets. Sure, discovering a secret by testing everything can be fun, but 95% of the time, the experimentation was a complete waste of time, (no secret to be found).

In my experience, most Players would rather spend an hour advancing through half a dozen rooms with encounters and stuff to do rather than spend that time CSI'ing one room that probably doesn't even have any secret to find.

Plus, in the Tomb of Horrors, futzing about with a lot of stuff can have Bad results. The Agitated Chamber with the green slime tapestries, for example.



> How were you "taught" D&D? Old school dungeoneering was far more about testing the players than testing the characters. But somehow that game never really made it into the rulebooks. And I've always wondered why.



I was taught D&D by the Basic D&D rulebook and _In Search of the Unknown_ and _Keep on the Borderland_.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

All this talk about secret doors is taking me back to Area 9.  

There are 7 secret doors in Area 9.  The module tells the DM that each door opens a different way.  One door pulls down, one pivots, one slides up, etc. etc. etc.  

But there's no description of the area in the module.  We don't know what the walls look like.  There's no furniture.  There are no sconces or cressets to monkey around with.  Just a bunch of little, apparently empty rooms.  If the PC's start looking around, there's nothing in the text describing what they see.  

I don't know how to run Area 8.  I'm glad the PC's in my PbP game never got there.  (They got stuck in the 2nd false entrance and the game mostly petered out.)


----------



## Joshua Randall

It may be meta-gamey, but if you're in a dungeon and you reach a dead end, and you haven't fought the boss monster yet (or discovered the foozle), then you know you missed a secret door somewhere.

At that point all that remains is to figure out roughly where the secret door might be, and to roll or describe until you find it.

Were there any DMs who treated the 1-in-6 chance as an absolute, one-time chance with no retries allowed? Such that it would be possible for an unlucky party NEVER to find a secret door?


----------



## Bullgrit

> There are 7 secret doors in Area 9. The module tells the DM that each door opens a different way. One door pulls down, one pivots, one slides up, etc. etc. etc.



It's interesting to note that most of the other secret doors in the Tomb have no description at all on how to open them.

Area 21: "The secret door to this place is a normal sort, so it can be found without undue difficulty." No info on how to open it.

Area 23: "...but the seemingly blank wall of solid stone behind the false door hides a secret door." No info on how to open it.

Area 17: (After dispel magic or remove curse are cast.) "...the secret door can be opened easily from either side." No info on how to open it. But it's "easy."

Area 13: "...a bit of examination will easily discover (4 in 6) a secret door. The character opening the door will..." No info on how to open it.

The area 9 secret doors require very specific methods to open. But all the methods are simply pushing or pulling or lifting on the door itself. No furnishings to manipulate.

Apparently the other secret doors don't require specific methods. But if pushing or pulling or lifting, (like area the 9 doors), is special, what is the generic/non-special methods?

Bullgrit


----------



## shmoo2

jmucchiello said:


> See, I don't think linear design is bad when you are using exploratory secret door rules.




I don't think the linear design and secret doors are necessarily a problem in Tomb of Horrors either.
I said they're usually bad, but here they create the unique Tomb of Horrors environment.

E.g. the secret doors force players to interact with everything, even the walls, in almost every room.
Also, for players used to standard secret doors in other adventures, these don't play to expectations - they are in pit traps, behind false doors, in the floor, or along walls but not at the end of a hall. 

My experiences with how searching for secret doors was handled in that era is similar to Bullgrit's, though I recall DM's allowing rerolls when players described how they manipulated stuff.


----------



## Bullgrit

Also, notice that even in area 13, a die roll chance is given -- "...a bit of examination will easily discover (4 in 6) a secret door."

"A bit of examination" will reveal an "easily" discoverable secret door 4 in 6. Does this examination include rapping with a pole? Or does the pole give a 6 in 6 chance to discover the door?

This idea of using a pole to tap the walls kind of makes magic spells and items that detect secret doors pretty unnecessary, doesn't it? Essentially, _every_ sword has the "detects secret doors" ability.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

shmoo2 said:


> E.g. the secret doors force players to interact with everything, even the walls, in almost every room.



Which also plays for theme of the Tomb, since that is exactly what gets them in trouble.


----------



## Bullgrit

Edit -- Deleting this post because it was going more off on a tangent of secret doors in general.

Bullgrit


----------



## Blackbrrd

After reading this thread (all 34 pages of it), I have invited my players to a round of Tomb of Horrors. Now I am wondering how to do it. 

I have played AD&D 2nd edition, DnD 3.0 and 3.5 and Dnd 4e. I do believe this module is best with the rules it was originally written for. In other words no skill checks, no thief that rolles to find traps, etc.

How do I get the things I need? Any hints would be most helpful! 

Great job by all the people involved in this thread and I am eagerly waiting for the next room.


----------



## Hussar

Blackbrrd - wasn't this an AD&D module?  So that means you still get thief checks.  Even if it was OD&D, it was post introduction of the thief in the supplements IIRC.


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## Blackbrrd

My understanding is that it was written in 1975, and was first published in 1977. AD&D was published in 1978. From what I have understood, it's not the intention that a thief can search for the pit traps, etc...


----------



## Stoat

*Area 27. The Portal of Scintillating Violet*

Area 27 is a ten foot square room located in the center of the north wall of the Pillared Throne Room.  The door to this chamber glows lilac, but flares with tinges of sickly green when touched.

The room on the other side is empty, except for eight sets of swords and shields.  Each set consists of two swords crossed in front of a shield.  There is another door on the north wall.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic27.jpg

If anybody enters the room, two swords and one shield will animate and attack!  Worse, every other time the threshold of the room is crossed, another of the eight sets of swords and shields animates!  Worse still, each animated set is tougher than the one before.  The first set attacks as a 1st level fighter.  The eighth as an 8th level fighter.

IMO:  Meh.  A bunch of animated weapons attack, and each is more powerful than the last.  It's not a deathtrap per se, but I guess it could wear down a persistent party.  I see no clues or hints, but I don't really see a reason for them, either.

One question.  I don't have an intuitive feel for 1E combat.  How dangerous are these swords?  Will they slaughter a 10th to 14th level party?  Challenge it?  Get wiped out by it?


----------



## FoxWander

I'd say how tough this room is depends on how many characters go in. The text says an animated set will attack the one who crossed the threshold to animate it- so each character will have his/her own set to deal with. Also each piece has to be destroyed individually, starting with the shield.

If the whole party enters the room this could be a tough encounter. All sets would animate at once and the people entering latest (usually the casters) will get the toughest ones. 

On the other hand, if only a scout goes in he'll get one set to fight.  Someone will probably go in to help and they'll get a set as well. Presumably the party would stop rushing in at this point.  If they're smart, the ones in combat will simply back out of the room so the whole party can help without animating any more.  The party can fight them one set at a time in this way which should be fairly easy at this level.  Then they can be completely disappointed when they explore the room on the far side.


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## jmucchiello

Bullgrit said:


> It's interesting to note that most of the other secret doors in the Tomb have no description at all on how to open them.



This may be heresy but Mr. Gygax was not the most organized writer. I'm sure if you were sitting in his basement in 1975 playing through the Tomb of Horrors and you said, "I look around. What do I see?" He would tell you several paragraphs worth of details that are not found in the written adventure. The fact that they are not in the written adventure is unfortunate, an over site or just an issue of space.

And I think DMs of the day were fully expecting to have to fill in details like that. It was just part of the job.


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## Bullgrit

> Area 27. The Portal of Scintillating Violet



Can someone explain what all the various colors for these doors and demon faces are supposed to mean? It seems like they're supposed to mean _something_, but I'm not seeing what. Some of the colors change with a touch, but why? Are these supposed to be clues? How so, and for what?



> If anybody enters the room, two swords and one shield will animate and attack! Worse, every other time the threshold of the room is crossed, another of the eight sets of swords and shields animates! Worse still, each animated set is tougher than the one before. The first set attacks as a 1st level fighter. The eighth as an 8th level fighter.



And here we have more Wall of Text From Hell! The weapon stats are vaguely mentioned in the wall of text, but not actually given in a usable way.

The deeper we go into this publication, the more it's looking to be a DM's worst nightmare. I pity those tournament DMs who had to run this with probably only a few minutes pre-read time.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> IMO: Meh. A bunch of animated weapons attack, and each is more powerful than the last. It's not a deathtrap per se, but I guess it could wear down a persistent party. I see no clues or hints, but I don't really see a reason for them, either.
> 
> One question. I don't have an intuitive feel for 1E combat. How dangerous are these swords? Will they slaughter a 10th to 14th level party? Challenge it? Get wiped out by it?



This trap also works on victims coming into this room from 27A, (north), after one of the demon mouth portals teleports them there. As I asked earlier, do such victims get stripped of their equipment? My reading of the teleporting suggests yes, but the text for that area/trap is lacking in direct explanation. Naked PCs trying to escape 27A may get mauled by these attacking weapons.

Depending on the DM's interpretation of the teleport trap, these flying weapons can either be, "Yay, we get a relatively easy combat," or "Oh my poor slashed, stabbed, and bleeding naked body!"

And 27 and 27A -- What is with Gygax's numbering of rooms in this Tomb? Why does he label completely separate areas as [number] and [number]A? And some numbers cover multiple areas without even an A or B note.

This Tomb is as much a horror for the DM as for the Players.

Bullgrit


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## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Can someone explain what all the various colors for these doors and demon faces are supposed to mean? It seems like they're supposed to mean _something_, but I'm not seeing what. Some of the colors change with a touch, but why? Are these supposed to be clues? How so, and for what?




I wish I knew.  Parts of The ToH are full of very evocative color -- electric blue, scintillating violet, glowing citron.  We know to "shun green" -- both the GGD and the tapestries in Area 21 are green.  Twice, we've seen electric blue lead to trouble (Area 26 and the Altar in the Chapel).  But the other colors?  I've been looking for a connection, but I don't see one.

Also strange is the fact that although parts of the Tomb are vividly decorated, other parts seem to be empty and featureless.  Frex, there are crazy frescoes in Area 3, but the walls in Area 9 aren't described at all.



> And here we have more Wall of Text From Hell! The weapon stats are "told" in the wall of text, but not actually given in a usable way.




Yeah, I didn't even try to parse out the stats for the swords.  That's probably part of the reason I have trouble guauging how tough this fight would be.  

Here's a question.  How many times each round does a set of two swords and one shield attack?  Does the shield get an attack, or is it just a hit point sink?


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## Bullgrit

> And I think DMs of the day were fully expecting to have to fill in details like that. It was just part of the job.



This can be acceptable in some adventure modules, but in this module, billed as the ultimate test of Player skill, and used as a crowning tournament experience, leaving so much important information unexplained and open for individual DM invention is a serious, (I'd argue, a fatal), failing.

Bullgrit


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## Hussar

To be honest Bullgrit, I'd say it's much more simply a sign of the times.  We've had many years and many, MANY modules to get a kinda, sorta standard format for modules.  And, in all fairness, we STILL haven't hit one that everyone likes (Delve format I'm looking at you).

Gygax has never been known for his technical skills as a writer.  Evocative, interesting?  Oh hell yes.  Technically proficient?  Umm, not so much.


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## jmucchiello

Bullgrit said:


> And 27 and 27A -- What is with Gygax's numbering of rooms in this Tomb? Why does he label completely separate areas as [number] and [number]A? And some numbers cover multiple areas without even an A or B note.



Again, "translation" is probably at issue here. I would not be surprised if the 1975 map for ToH looked nothing like the published map (designed to fit nicely for printing).


> This can be acceptable in some adventure modules, but in this module, billed as the ultimate test of Player skill, and used as a crowning tournament experience, leaving so much important information unexplained and open for individual DM invention is a serious, (I'd argue, a fatal), failing.



Does it actually say this on the module? Anyone have an early printing of the module to see if it bills itself as any form of ultimate test? A quick websearch tells me that other than mentioning was played at Origins, there's nothing advertising the module as the ultimate anything. That is a term that has been applied to afterward as part of its legend.

Devil's Advocate: Of course being written as it is, it is the ultimate test of DM skill as well.


----------



## Bullgrit

> Does it actually say this on the module? Anyone have an early printing of the module to see if it bills itself as any form of ultimate test? A quick websearch tells me that other than mentioning was played at Origins, there's nothing advertising the module as the ultimate anything. That is a term that has been applied to afterward as part of its legend.



Most of the “ultimate test” concept comes from fan description, (sometimes years post), building its legend.

From the module itself:

“THIS IS A THINKING PERSON’S MODULE…” [All caps emphasis in the text.]

“It is this writer’s belief that brainwork is good for all players, and they will certainly benefit from playing this module, for individual levels of skill will be improved by reasoning and experience.” [Not only will this adventure test player skill, but it will improve that skill.]

Plus there are several references/mentions to player skill throughout the various trick and trap areas of the Tomb. Without quoting each one, most are basically along the lines of “skilled players will succeed.” So without directly stating exactly in the module text, the feel/style is set up as some kind of test of Player skill.

* * *

Reading the intro to the module again made me think of something from the first page of this thread:


			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> Patryn of Elvenshae said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What clues are there to tell the party that there are, in fact, multiple entrances, rather than just fiendishly hard-to-open doors?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One tidbit is metagame genre knowledge. Typical module design of the time didn’t actually expect folks to engage in mining activities – if it was designed so a trap closed off one route, then another route usually existed.
Click to expand...


Rereading the module intro, it made me laugh to see that, actually, the PCs have to prod and dig, (effort given in man turns), just to open a way into the entrance hall. And then there’s also the concealed door that can only be found after digging away the plaster of the hallway.

Within the first, what, 4 areas of the Tomb, the party has the need to dig/mine. I wonder how much this influenced the delvers when considering how to get past further obstacles?

Bullgrit


----------



## Havrik Stoneskimmer

Stoat said:


> IMO:  Meh.  A bunch of animated weapons attack, and each is more powerful than the last.  It's not a deathtrap per se, but I guess it could wear down a persistent party.  I see no clues or hints, but I don't really see a reason for them, either.



I don't think it's meant as a huge threat from the pillared hall side. It's more meant as a death trap for people who get teleported (probably naked, as Bullgrit discusses) to room 27A (the "Chamber of Hopelessness"!). If the door on that side is opened, "all of the swords and shields swoop from the walls to attack". That is quite possibly lethal to a single unarmed PC attacked by all eight sets at once. I don't think it's a really _good_ deathtrap even there, since the rest of the party can eventually destroy all of the sets (assuming the trapped PC can somehow communicate his or her situation to the rest of the group, and that the players don't cheat and mingle player/PC knowledge).


----------



## Joshua Randall

Bullgrit said:


> Within the first, what, 4 areas of the Tomb, the party has the need to dig/mine. I wonder how much this influenced the delvers when considering how to get past further obstacles?



It does set the precedent that you need to approach the Tomb  less as a typical dungeon romp and more as a particularly dangerous bomb-site disposal effort.

As we've discussed before, one way to succeed at the Tomb is to take it super slowly and super carefully. Never touch anything yourself. Use magic or slaves to tear it apart brick by brick, so you find all those doors hidden behind plaster or keys in vats of acid.

Along that line of thinking, how would it work if the PCs stood outside the Tomb and saturation bombed it with _earthquake_ spells or any of the various AD&D magic items that facilitate digging or excavation? Throw in a _decanter of endless water_ and you could wreak serious havok by pressure-washing and flooding. Summon a bunch of earth elementals or xorn. Use _passwall_ to weaken the structure of the Tomb so that it collapses.

Better yet, scout the place out with scrying, then _passwall_ directly into the demilich's chamber.

All would depend upon DM rulings, of course. But there is actually nothing to be gained by setting foot in the Tomb if you don't have to. (Nothing other that GP/XP; if you just want to "win", your goal is the demilich's treasure horde, period.)


----------



## Bullgrit

Not dead, just resting.

Bullgrit


----------



## Hussar

Joshua Randall said:


> It does set the precedent that you need to approach the Tomb  less as a typical dungeon romp and more as a particularly dangerous bomb-site disposal effort.
> 
> As we've discussed before, one way to succeed at the Tomb is to take it super slowly and super carefully. Never touch anything yourself. Use magic or slaves to tear it apart brick by brick, so you find all those doors hidden behind plaster or keys in vats of acid.
> 
> Along that line of thinking, how would it work if the PCs stood outside the Tomb and saturation bombed it with _earthquake_ spells or any of the various AD&D magic items that facilitate digging or excavation? Throw in a _decanter of endless water_ and you could wreak serious havok by pressure-washing and flooding. Summon a bunch of earth elementals or xorn. Use _passwall_ to weaken the structure of the Tomb so that it collapses.
> 
> Better yet, scout the place out with scrying, then _passwall_ directly into the demilich's chamber.
> 
> All would depend upon DM rulings, of course. But there is actually nothing to be gained by setting foot in the Tomb if you don't have to. (Nothing other that GP/XP; if you just want to "win", your goal is the demilich's treasure horde, period.)




Well, this has been pointed out.  Probably the absolute best solution to the Tomb is to bring a flock of sheep in with you.  Or pigs.  Pigs would probably work best since they'd be heavy enough to set everything off.

Wand of Monster Summoning, or anything like a Bag of Tricks, or basically anything that gives you lots of disposable troopies like Animate Dead would solve a great deal of the adventure.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 27A. The Chamber of Hopelessness*

This is a 30 by 20 foot rectangular chamber.  A small fountain of water spills into a basin on one wall.  Skeletons and debris are scattered everywhere.  

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic27a.jpg

Acererak has left a message on the north wall written in glowing, magical letters::

YOU WHO DARED TO VIOLATE MY TOMB NOW PAY THE PRICE.  STAY HERE AND DIE SLOWLY OF STARVATION, OR OPEN AND ENTER THE DOOR TO YOUR SOUTH WHERE CERTAIN BUT QUICK DEATH AWAITS -- WHICHEVER YOU CHOOSE, KNOW THAT I, ACERERAK THE ETERNAL, WATCH AND SCOFF AT YOUR PUNY EFFORTS AND ENJOY YOUR DEATH THROES.

There's some low-value loot hidden in the rubble here: 30 - 300 silver, gold, electrum and copper pieces, 2-20 gems, a potion of diminution and a +1 Flail.

if the door to the south is even opened, all of the swords and shields in Area 27 animate and attack at once.  

IMO:  We've already talked about this room, and I don't have much to add.  I'm not convinced that PC's teleported here by area 25B show up nude, but even if they have all their equipment, 24 animated swords and shields is a hell of a fight.  It's not quite a deathtrap, but it's close.  Acererak provides a warning, if not a clue, to the risks of leaving the room. 

[MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]: I really don't think a herd of pigs or goats or whatever will be that much help in the Tomb.  Pigs won't get the key out of the acid vat in Area 19.  Pigs are probably not going to be much use in the Agitated Chamber.  Pigs aren't going to be able to figure out the trick with the scepter and throne in Area 25.  You can't clear the Tomb without picking up items and manipulating them.  Maybe you should _charm_ a few henchmen.


----------



## Hussar

True, it won't catch everything.  But, it will catch an awful lot.  Take the agitated room for instance.  Let the pigs in first, get bounced around, trigger the green slime maybe.  Or goats.  Yeah, goats would work, they'd try to eat everything.


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## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> Acererak provides a warning, if not a clue, to the risks of leaving the room.



Kind of funny how he gives a warning for something the PCs pretty much *have* to do. It's not like he's giving a warning the party can use to avoid danger.

Also, as for "CERTAIN BUT QUICK DEATH," the sword/shield trap really isn't either. At least not certain or quick like the sphere of annihilation or green slime or juggernaut or seesaw into the fire traps.

And imagine how the party would take the gloating message if they got to this room not by the teleporter, but by fighting their way through the weapons. It kind of falls flat in that entirely possible case.

Bullgrit


----------



## Squire James

Hussar said:


> Well, this has been pointed out.  Probably the absolute best solution to the Tomb is to bring a flock of sheep in with you.  Or pigs.  Pigs would probably work best since they'd be heavy enough to set everything off.
> 
> Wand of Monster Summoning, or anything like a Bag of Tricks, or basically anything that gives you lots of disposable troopies like Animate Dead would solve a great deal of the adventure.




Actually the best setup would be a solo high level wizard with access to the Ethereal Plane, a Protection From Evil spell to ward off those pesky demons, and a Power Word Kill spell to deal with that pesky demilich.  I guess a lower level wizard with a PW Kill scroll would do in a pinch.  Not that any of the pregens or the adventure has any of this, of course.

I suppose that wizard would also need to somehow learn exactly where the demilich is, but I can see Gary hand-waving that part as he explains how Mordenkainen could solve the Tomb in about 15 minutes.  Almost as if he crafted the adventure to work that way...


----------



## amerigoV

Hussar said:


> Well, this has been pointed out.  Probably the absolute best solution to the Tomb is to bring a flock of sheep in with you.  Or pigs.  Pigs would probably work best since they'd be heavy enough to set everything off.
> 
> Wand of Monster Summoning, or anything like a Bag of Tricks, or basically anything that gives you lots of disposable troopies like Animate Dead would solve a great deal of the adventure.




As a DM, I would make this extremely difficult to pull off. Not to nerf the idea, but to build mood. This place just oozes EEEEEEEVIL from the start (isnt the area around the tomb someone mishappened from the efffects?). No way any normal animal is going near that place. I would make any animal companions have to be coaxed into the place, and have familiars give a really bad vibe to their owners. Maybe a druid could pull it off, but that is about it (sure, you could stuff them down the first main hall if you were lucky, but I think that is about all I would allow without heavy use of charm animal, etc).


----------



## Loincloth of Armour

amerigoV said:


> As a DM, I would make this extremely difficult to pull off. Not to nerf the idea, but to build mood. This place just oozes EEEEEEEVIL from the start (isnt the area around the tomb someone mishappened from the efffects?). No way any normal animal is going near that place. I would make any animal companions have to be coaxed into the place, and have familiars give a really bad vibe to their owners. Maybe a druid could pull it off, but that is about it (sure, you could stuff them down the first main hall if you were lucky, but I think that is about all I would allow without heavy use of charm animal, etc).




Hilariously, this *exact* situation occured in one Dragon magzine comic, "Knights of the Dinner Table" (can't remember which strip). 

Party was planning on entering the "Caves of Horrible, Sudden, Gory Death" --or some such-- and party responded by pulling out the horde of sheep trick. DM countered by saying the horrific waves of pure evil eminating from the caves mean the sheep won't enter.

Player trumped by casting "Shocking Fist" on a metal rod, turning it into a cattle prod. Then quoted the chapter and verse of the rules on animal control which allowed him to use the cattle prod to force the sheep into the dungeon.

Players... sometimes the game would play much smoother if they just didn't show up.


----------



## jonesy

I said earlier that I have huge problems with this part. Most of the individual things have already been said, but my biggest beef here is that sections 6, 33, 25, 27, and 27A all interact with each other by way of the passages and teleports that connect them, but the descriptions of the rooms do not account for any of this. Teleporting to 6 naked, but not to 27A? No mention on whether they stop floating, except that 27A assumes that the characters can freely drink from the fountain there which suggest they stop floating. Nothing in 6 mentions anything about this. 27A seems to assume that people teleport there because of the message, and if they don't they need to deal with the swords which are only mentioned in 27 and 27A, and not 25 which is the normal passage.

The individual rooms by description in this section of the Tomb are written as if they were isolated from each other, but they aren't. This is one section that really suffers from the flow of consciousness style dungeon design.


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## MarkB

jonesy said:


> The individual rooms by description in this section of the Tomb are written as if they were isolated from each other, but they aren't. This is one section that really suffers from the flow of consciousness style dungeon design.




That can occur even in more up-to-date modules. I recall having to hastily run a session of a Dungeon magazine adventure path one week without having had time to read the encounters through properly in advance. The PCs were entering a monster-occupied mansion, and the description of the living room mentioned that its occupants would rush to reinforce those in the lobby if they heard the sounds of combat there.

Of course, I only found this out when the party entered the living room, having already fought a pitched battle in the lobby. The description of the lobby, two pages prior, had mentioned nothing about a commotion drawing reinforcements.


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## Bullgrit

MarkB said:
			
		

> That can occur even in more up-to-date modules.



Sure, that problem is found throughout every era of D&D, (and other RPGs with adventure modules). It definitely can be frustrating, and in some cases can seriously change the adventure experience and outcome.

Bullgrit


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## Bullgrit

Am I just impatient?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

*Area 28 The Wondrous Foyer*

The secret passage behind the throne in Area 25 leads to a really fancy room.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic28.jpg

The steps here are each made of a different stone: onyx, pink marble, lapis, black marble, golden serpentine and malachite.  The walls are made of polished copper panels set between strips of rare wood inlaid with ivory.  The ceiling is polished silver.  The doors at the top of the stairs are made of solid mithril.

A big bronze key  is sitting on the fourth step.  This is the Second Key, and you have to have it to finish the Tomb.  Unfortunately, the key is warded with an _Antipathy_ spell.  Anyone who touches it must save versus spells at a -2 penalty.  Those who fail the save refuse to ever touch it again, and won't even allow it within two feet of themselves!

IMO:  The trap here is the big doors in Area 29.  We'll come to them in the fullness of time.  But what's the deal with the _Antipathy_ spell on the key?  The players will need to use the key in Area 33.  It opens the last door to Acererak's lair.  The key is also a component in the Area 29 trap, so it sorta makes sense that Acererak would leave it out here.  But why make it difficult to pick up and use?


----------



## Stoat

There isn't much to Area 28, let's do two rooms today.

*Area 29 The Valves of Mithril*

A pair of huge mithril doors stand at the top of the stairs described in Area 28.  And I mean huge.  The doors are fourteen feet wide, twenty-eight feet tall and three inches thick.  No wonder we hear stories of adventurers trying to steal them.  These doors are almost certainly the most valuable things in the Tomb!

You'll be surprised to learn that the doors are "absolutely spell and magic proof."  The module doesn't say if its immune to a thief with a high lock picking skill.  Go ahead and be a rat bastard and say it is.

There's a keyhole right in the spot where the two doors meet.  You can see it in the illustration provided for Area 28.

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic28.jpg

The keyhole is set in a "cup like depression, a hemispherical concavity."  Basically, it looks like somebody took an ice cream scoop and dug a dollop out of the doors.  It isn't clear how big this "concavity" is, but it looks fairly sizable in the picture.

If you overcome your _Antipathy_ and grab the Second Key, you might think it goes in this door.  Zzzzap!  Take 1d10 points of electrical damage.  Hmm.  Maybe the First Key, the one that was under the slime back in Area 19 will do the trick.  Zzzzap!  Take 2d10 points of electrical damage.  

The trick is use the Scepter from Area 25.  Poke the gold end of the scepter into the cup like depression, and the doors swing right open!  Poke the silver end into the doors, and you'll be teleported back to Area 6, naked as the day you were born.  

Maybe the players decide to bash down the doors?  Well, if the doors are cut with a sharp weapon they start gushing blood like the elevators in the Overlook Hotel.  In 20 minutes, blood will fill the room to the ceiling.  The module provides a list of several spells that players might cast at the gushing blood.  Each has a different effect; some of them seem pretty far fetched.  Also, any kind of fire, even the torch you've been paying your henchmen to carry around, turns the blood into poison gas that kills everybody in the room, no save.

IMO:  Obviously, the players are expected to try the Second Key on the Mithral Valves.  It won't work, and somebody will take a relatively trivial amount of damage.  My guess is that lots of groups will get confused and burn a lot of time monkeying around with the Second Key here.  

Acererak has told us that the Throne in Area 25 is "key and keyed."  We've already seen the Scepter open one secret door.  Arguably, those are clues showing the right way to get through the doors.  The concavity could be a clue as well, particularly if the DM describes it in a way that connects it back to the Scepter.  

How are the players supposed to know which end of the Scepter to use?  The silver end worked back in Area 25, but it doesn't work here.  The general rule in Area 25 seemed to be "like touches like."  Touch the gold end of the Scepter to the gold crown.  Touch the silver end to the silver crown on the throne.  Mithril is silver, nothing in Area 29 is made of gold, so that pattern fails here.  Am I missing something?

I love the image of the doors that gush blood, but how likely is it that the players trigger that trap?  Assuming they thought to use force, I'd guess that most groups would try to batter the doors down.  The module is fairly clear that the doors only gush blood "if cut by a sharp weapon."  Who tries to cut through a metal door?


----------



## Bullgrit

> Area 28 The Wondrous Foyer



Oh my god. All the various materials and colors makes me think there are some kind of clues or hints to be figured out. But, no, all this descriptive detail is pointless. Unless the point is to distract the PCs into thinking about clues and hints. 



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> The key is also a component in the Area 29 trap, so it sorta makes sense that Acererak would leave it out here. But why make it difficult to pick up and use?



A key sitting on the step right in front of the door? Reminds me of the glowing mace on the steps outside the fake lich’s room. Obvious trick is obvious. I would think most Players would leave it be. But if someone does try to pick it up, and the party discovers the powerful magic protecting it, this might stoke their curiosity. This might spur them to spend time and effort trying to figure a way of picking it up and using it in the door. Sadly, it’s only a waste of time and effort, and strangely, the resulting trick is not even entertaining enough for the waste. Obvious trick is obvious, _and_ tempting, but ultimately a letdown.



> Area 29 The Valves of Mithril



This area has another one of Gygax’s little snide remarks on the Players. The one key gives a mild zap. The other key gives a moderate zap “to any so foolish as to insert it!” [Exclamation point in original text.] I’m sorry, but I don’t consider inserting a key into a key hole is a foolish action. Even here in the Tomb of Horrors, there are two more key holes, later, that require the PCs insert these very two keys into them. In one place, inserting a key is “foolish” but in other places it’s required and proper. It’s one thing for this trick/trap to exist – I’m not complaining about the gimmick itself, (though it is weak) – but it’s just poor form to set a snide tone toward the Players just because they don’t figure out the illogic of an clueless trick.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> The trick is use the Scepter from Area 25. Poke the gold end of the scepter into the cup like depression, and the doors swing right open! Poke the silver end into the doors, and you'll be teleported back to Area 6, naked as the day you were born.
> <snip>
> How are the players supposed to know which end of the Scepter to use? The silver end worked back in Area 25, but it doesn't work here. The general rule in Area 25 seemed to be "like touches like." Touch the gold end of the Scepter to the gold crown. Touch the silver end to the silver crown on the throne. Mithril is silver, nothing in Area 29 is made of gold, so that pattern fails here. Am I missing something?



Yeah, again, no clue or hint or logical pattern to follow. Disappointing to me, but the standard trope, here, it seems.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> Maybe the players decide to bash down the doors? Well, if the doors are cut with a sharp weapon they start gushing blood like the elevators in the Overlook Hotel. In 20 minutes, blood will fill the room to the ceiling. The module provides a list of several spells that players might cast at the gushing blood. Each has a different effect; some of them seem pretty far fetched. Also, any kind of fire, even the torch you've been paying your henchmen to carry around, turns the blood into poison gas that kills everybody in the room, no save.



This is an interesting gimmick and cool mental image, but really a weird trap with possibly a low chance of being tripped. And the results for some spells cast at it? Cure spells seem logical, (surprise). But cast _polymorph_ at the flowing blood and you create a bunch of wights who attack? First, who would cast _polymorph_ at the flowing blood?

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Oh my god. All the various materials and colors makes me think there are some kind of clues or hints to be figured out. But, no, all this descriptive detail is pointless. Unless the point is to distract the PCs into thinking about clues and hints.




I've said before, and I'll keep saying it.  The Tomb is full of evocative color details that look like they should be clues but probably aren't.  It's weird to me that the module starts out with strong, color based clues (shun green, nights good color, etc. etc.) and then seems to abandon the concept.  



> This is an interesting gimmick and cool mental image, but really a weird trap with possibly a low chance of being tripped. And the results for some spells cast at it? Cure spells seem logical, (surprise). But cast _polymorph_ at the flowing blood and you create a bunch of wights who attack? First, who would cast _polymorph_ at the flowing blood?




Who would cast _levitate_?  Who would cast _purify water_?


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> Who would cast levitate? Who would cast purify water?



Some of this stuff would feel more appropriate in a module like Gygax's _Dungeonland_ and _Land Behind the Magic Mirror_ -- a weird-fun environment where crazy-fun things happen. But in a module presented as a serious and thought-needed challenge, some of these tricks/gimmicks just feel out of place. Things like this door and the green slime tapestry and more seem more fitting for a whimsical adventure.



			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> The Tomb is full of evocative color details



The more we study this, the more the Tomb of Horrors seems like a bad LSD trip: vibrant colors all around, convincing illusions, strange transmutations, paranoia, people ending up dead or naked.

Bullgrit


----------



## MarkB

Stoat said:


> Who tries to cut through a metal door?




Anyone with an adamantine weapon, for one. I don't know about 1st and 2nd edition, but I recall from my 3e days that people would routinely apply those things to dungeons like a can opener, hacking away at doors, walls, containers, anything that might stand in their way.



Stoat said:


> Who would cast _levitate_?  Who would cast _purify water_?




I could see _levitate_ being cast on someone in the blood pool to get them out above it so they don't drown - especially the heavy-armoured tank who has the natural buoyancy of a brick.

And if the DM is kind enough to provide some hint as to the possibility of the blood turning poisonous, a purification spell might seem to be the perfect response. Some players might do it as a routine precautionary measure.


----------



## Stoat

MarkB said:


> Anyone with an adamantine weapon, for one. I don't know about 1st and 2nd edition, but I recall from my 3e days that people would routinely apply those things to dungeons like a can opener, hacking away at doors, walls, containers, anything that might stand in their way.




You're right that hacking down the door with an Adamantine weapons would look like a good plan in 3.X.  But, I'm almost positive that Adamantine weapons didn't work that way in 1E and 2E.


----------



## Votan

Stoat said:


> You're right that hacking down the door with an Adamantine weapons would look like a good plan in 3.X.  But, I'm almost positive that Adamantine weapons didn't work that way in 1E and 2E.




Yeah, I am pretty sure that this is a 3E-ism.  That being said, maybe the blood is there for the greedy players who try to cut the doors loose to sell them.  After all, any reasonable pricing of mithril (especially if they are solid) would suggest that it is time to go home and rejoice at a successful and profitable dungeon expedition.


----------



## Freakohollik

Stoat said:


> The trick is use the Scepter from Area 25. Poke the gold end of the scepter into the cup like depression, and the doors swing right open! Poke the silver end into the doors, and you'll be teleported back to Area 6, naked as the day you were born.
> 
> Maybe the players decide to bash down the doors? Well, if the doors are cut with a sharp weapon they start gushing blood like the elevators in the Overlook Hotel. In 20 minutes, blood will fill the room to the ceiling. The module provides a list of several spells that players might cast at the gushing blood. Each has a different effect; some of them seem pretty far fetched. Also, any kind of fire, even the torch you've been paying your henchmen to carry around, turns the blood into poison gas that kills everybody in the room, no save.
> 
> IMO: Obviously, the players are expected to try the Second Key on the Mithral Valves. It won't work, and somebody will take a relatively trivial amount of damage. My guess is that lots of groups will get confused and burn a lot of time monkeying around with the Second Key here.
> 
> Acererak has told us that the Throne in Area 25 is "key and keyed." We've already seen the Scepter open one secret door. Arguably, those are clues showing the right way to get through the doors. The concavity could be a clue as well, particularly if the DM describes it in a way that connects it back to the Scepter.
> 
> How are the players supposed to know which end of the Scepter to use? The silver end worked back in Area 25, but it doesn't work here. The general rule in Area 25 seemed to be "like touches like." Touch the gold end of the Scepter to the gold crown. Touch the silver end to the silver crown on the throne. Mithril is silver, nothing in Area 29 is made of gold, so that pattern fails here. Am I missing something?




This is one of the few traps in the module that I don't like. I don't see anyway to know which end of the sceptor to use, and the penatly for doing it wrong is really harsh.

The second key is also strange. The antipathy effect is there for flavor, but you need the key later on. If everyone fails their save to use the key, you're going to need some really inventive play, or more likely DM leniency to continue.


----------



## Blackbrrd

We are back to the point mentioned earlier that it's time to use divination to reduce the risk of trying things out. Something I would probably do after getting sapped by one of the first keys...


----------



## Bullgrit

> That being said, maybe the blood is there for the greedy players who try to cut the doors loose to sell them. After all, any reasonable pricing of mithril (especially if they are solid) would suggest that it is time to go home and rejoice at a successful and profitable dungeon expedition.



You know, thinking about a little bit more: Are these doors actually made of mithral? The text says they are -- it doesn't say this is an illusion or fakery, it says they are mithral. But they bleed when cut. Is this supposed to be a magical effect? But the doors are "absolutely spell and magic proof," even though the magic scepter will magically unlock them.

Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?

Bullgrit


----------



## Votan

Bullgrit said:


> You know, thinking about a little bit more: Are these doors actually made of mithral? The text says they are -- it doesn't say this is an illusion or fakery, it says they are mithral. But they bleed when cut. Is this supposed to be a magical effect? But the doors are "absolutely spell and magic proof," even though the magic scepter will magically unlock them.
> 
> Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?
> 
> Bullgrit




The idea that the doors are solid mithril is hard to know.  That being said, even a mithril coating is worth a lot of cash.  I wonder if the enchantment would survive being melted down in an anti-magic field, for example.  Absolutely magic and spell proof is (ironically) slightly on the vague side.  

In general, absolute effects are less interesting to me as time goes on.  Just like the scepter/crown that kill without any save.  Does that work if you sneak up on Odin?


----------



## Gentlegamer

Bullgrit said:


> Some of this stuff would feel more appropriate in a module like Gygax's _Dungeonland_ and _Land Behind the Magic Mirror_ -- a weird-fun environment where crazy-fun things happen. But in a module presented as a serious and thought-needed challenge, some of these tricks/gimmicks just feel out of place. Things like this door and the green slime tapestry and more seem more fitting for a whimsical adventure.



This is a false dichotomy in old-school D&D. When you had time-traveling paladin-cowboys, space-travel to Barsoom, and dungeon levels like the "Living Room" (where the furniture comes alive), gonzo is the rule, not the exception in old-school thinking, at least at Gygax's table.


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?
> Bullgrit




Just looking at the 1E PHB, their best bet is for the 14th level pregen Cleric's to cast _Commune_.  As I read it, the Cleric will get guaranteed true answers to 14 yes/no questions.  Obviously, whether or not this gambit succeeds depends on what questions the player's ask.    

_Augury_ isn't bad, but it isn't great either.  You only get one question, the answer is either "weal" or "woe", and there's an 84% chance you get it right.

Aggressive rules-lawyers might try _Find the Path_.  "The spell will enable the cleric to select the correct direction which will eventually lead him or her to egress, the exact path to follow *(or actions to take)*, and this knowledge will persist as long as the spell lasts . . ." (emphasis added).  So if (a) the spell can lead the cleric to a place on the other side of the door; and (b) the "actions to take" part of the spell is interpreted generously; then FtP should do the trick.

The 14th level pregen Wizard can cast _Limited Wish_.  Who knows what happens if he wishes to know how to open the Mithral Valves?  The wizard also has _Contact Other Plane_, but I'd avoid using it.


----------



## FoxWander

My group cast _Find the Path_ just after finding the MAGICAL SECRET DOOR (area 17).  We were running the Tomb as a one-shot, it was getting late and they wanted to try and speed things up.  I think the "actions to take" bit is key here.  The spell will show you exactly where to go and how to bypass traps along the way but it won't tell you anything about items you might need to find along the way (such as the Tomb's various keys) until you actually need to use them.

So, at the point my party cast it (just before the lab) it should have lead them through the lab with no mention of the FIRST KEY* then straight to the concealed door in the AGITATED CHAMBER. If they were careful moving the "tapestry" and didn't waste time trying to loot they would have gotten through this fine because the room takes 1 turn to start shaking.  Then they would have totally bypassed the siren, gone straight to the FALSE/TRUE DOOR and it's secret door beyond- bypassing the poorly described juggernaut trap as well.  At the ADAMANTITE DOOR the spell would have said something like "insert 3 swords to open door" then lead them straight to the throne.  There it would tell them to "touch the silver end of the scepter to the inlaid thrown to reveal passageway" leading them to this room.  Here it would make no mention of the SECOND KEY (you don't need it here, it wouldn't 'care' about that key until the CRYPT) it would simply say "Insert gold end of scepter to open doors" then lead them to the chamber beyond. And so on.  

When they actually need the SECOND KEY it would simply tell them to "Insert key and turn 3 times to the right to raise vault."  There should be no mention of what key its talking about or where it came from.  It would only mention the "actions to take."  Luckily the key they need wasn't hidden anywhere.  If it was the FIRST KEY they needed here this could be extremely frustrating and lead to a lot of backtracking- or casting _Find the Path_ to get the missing key.  

So _Find the Path_ is an extremely useful spell, but if it leads you past necessary items it can be a very double-edged sword indeed.  It happens to work quite well in the Tomb only because the items actually needed to "solve" the Tomb are put right in the very _Path_ the spell helps you _Find_



[sblock=* interesting bit about the FIRST KEY- only sblock'd because it's a discussion for later in the thread] In fact, _Find the Path_ would never 'mention' the FIRST KEY at all, as it is never used anywhere in the dungeon!  It only has one function which is mentioned in the final crypt so I'll wait until then to talk about it- but never finding the FIRST KEY could totally change how this dungeon plays out![/sblock]


----------



## Blackbrrd

Bullgrit said:


> Let's presume the PCs decide to use magical divination before trying to open these doors. What spell/item would they probably use, and what questions would they ask?
> 
> Bullgrit



As a player getting shocked from trying to use one of the keys, I would use augury or something similar before my next experiment. It's a non-lethal way of experimenting and would still allow us to come up with ideas, and not getting them from the DM (I mean divination)


----------



## Bullgrit

I understand letting the conversation for each room/area have time before bringing up the next room/area, but maybe giving more than a week between is too much?

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

This is the most lucid, concise and on-topic thread on EN World. I think it can stand to age a little. Like a fine wine that no-one wants to open lest it spoil.


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit said:


> I understand letting the conversation for each room/area have time before bringing up the next room/area, but maybe giving more than a week between is too much?
> 
> Bullgrit






jonesy said:


> This is the most lucid, concise and on-topic thread on EN World. I think it can stand to age a little. Like a fine wine that no-one wants to open lest it spoil.




I find myself dragging my feet a little as we get closer and closer to Area 33.  I've enjoyed this project a great deal, and I'll be a little bummed when its over.  

Also, ENWorld was titanically laggy for a couple of days there, and I didn't feel like wrestling with it.


----------



## Flatus Maximus

Stoat said:


> I've enjoyed this project a great deal, and I'll be a little bummed when its over.




When it's over (sniff), maybe you can start a "Should Acererak have an advantage?" thread?

Anyway: It's been 6 months and I still can't XP you for this thread! I'll get around to it, eventually...


----------



## amerigoV

Stoat said:


> I find myself dragging my feet a little as we get closer and closer to Area 33.  I've enjoyed this project a great deal, and I'll be a little bummed when its over.




I gotta admit is about the only thing that is holding me here these days. So please, take your time and lets savor it.


----------



## FoxWander

Stoat said:


> I've enjoyed this project a great deal, and I'll be a little bummed when its over.



I agree.  Although we could continue the conversation by trying to fix the many problems we've found throughout the adventure.  We all agree that although the Tomb is certainly a great, classic dungeon it is far from perfect- or even lucid in some parts.  We could try to collectively make a "Tomb of Horrors 2.0" that fixes all the bugs of the original.


----------



## jonesy

FoxWander said:


> We could try to collectively make a "Tomb of Horrors 2.0" that fixes all the bugs of the original.



I think that might be a thing for a different thread. And I expect a cornucopia of contradicting ideas for it.


----------



## Votan

jonesy said:


> I think that might be a thing for a different thread. And I expect a cornucopia of contradicting ideas for it.




True, but all good things have their end and holding on to them past their time is never a good thing.  Besides, I really, really want to talk about area 33 and I am an impatient person.


----------



## Stoat

Well let's keep moving.

*Area 30. The False Treasure Room*

This rectangular chamber is 50 feet wide and 40 feet deep.  It is elaborately decorated to look like a tomb.  The ceiling is polished silver.  The walls are ivory inlaid with gold.  The floor is polished agate.  Immediately across from the entrance is a large bronze urn.  Behind the urn is a granite sarcophagus with glyphs of inlaid platinum on the lid.  A pair of massive iron chests flank the sarcophagus.  Finally, each corner of the room holds an iron statue depicting a 9 foot tall warrior.  Each statue holds a different weapon going around the room clockwise from the northwest corner the weapons held are: a huge, spike-ended mace; a saw-toothed zweihander raised to strike; a wickedly spiked morning star; a voulge (see Unearthed Arcana, Appendix "T", page 126,).  There are no visible exits.

The room is magic proofed.  No spells will work within the room, and no magical properties of any item will work except those that detect magic and evil. 

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic30.jpg

A. Bronze Urn: The urn is very large and covered with gold filigree.  A thin stream of smoke pours out of thin slot in the stopper.  The Urn contains an Efreet.  If the PC's delicately open the urn, the Efreet will "perform 3 services for the party and then depart."  If the joggle the urn around while they try to open it, the Efreet will get pissed off and attack them.

B.  Granite Sarcophagus:  The platinum glyphs on the lid of the sarcophagus spell out "ACERERAK".  The far end of the sarcophagus has been bashed in, and the party can see bones and a broken _Staff of the Magi_ within.  Obviously Mr. A is dead, and we can all go home now.

C.  Iron Chests: The iron chests are too big to move.  Each is locked with "tripple locks set with poison needle traps."  The chests are a trick.  One holds 10,000 gems that look really valuable but arent'. The other holds 10,000 copper pieces magicked up to look like platinum pieces.  Nelson Munz would be proud.

There's a secret door behind Mace-Wielding statue in the northwest corner.  It takes three strong characters to move it.  Hidden behind the statue is a pull ring that raises a plug of stone that leads down 10 feet to a short corridor.

IMO:  "The iron men of visage grim do more than meets the viewers eye.  You've left and left and found my Tomb and now your soul will die."  The last two couplets of Acererak's riddle start by describing the statues in Area 30 clearly enough.  The statues are the closest things to "iron men of visage grim" in the whole joint.  I don't know if there's any clue pointing to the right statue or not.  I think "left and left" applies to Area 32.  But the PC's have all the time in the world if they want it, and trial and error will find the secret exit if they decide to start pushing statues around.

As for the treasures, it's always useful to have the services of an Efreet.  The fake gems and coins might fool the players, but not for long.


----------



## Freakohollik

I doubt any party that got this far would be fooled by the fake treasure room.

The genie is sort of interesting, but I'd guess a lot of parties would poke and prod at the urn before opening it. In this case caution is to your detriment. Missing out on the wishes sucks, but a single genie isn't strong enough to threaten a party of the recommended levels for this module.


----------



## Joshua Randall

I think "the iron men of visage grim do more than meets the viewer's eye" is a pretty crappy part of the riddle. The statues don't *do* anything.

If the riddle were something like "the iron men of visage grim *hide *(mumble mumble rhymes with 'die')" that would make more sense.

Also, the fake gems and coins painted to look like more valuable coins is a total cliche. An organically played 14th level AD&D character would have encountered this trick multiple times by this level.

It's also completely obnoxious and pointless. No adventuring party worth the name is going to be either fooled or deterred by fake treasure.


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 30. The False Treasure Room*



Something that immediately stands out to me as funny, is the description of the statues’ weapons. The first three weapons are described with spikes or saw teeth, but the fourth is simply a voulge. And sadly, that’s not even a clue.

The statues radiate magic and evil, (the only detection spells that work in this room), and the clue poem at the beginning of the Tomb says “The iron men of visage grim do more than meets the viewers eye.” [sic] But these statues aren’t magical, aren’t evil, and don’t actually do anything. So as much as I’ve complained that there are no clues in the Tomb for the Players/PCs to use, here we have at least four clues, yet they are completely useless. The clues aren’t even reverse psychology, or misleading to danger. They’re just useless.

The urn, sarcophagus, and two chests: It would good to get service from the Efreet in the urn, but the other containers are just tricks, (not traps). Again, *no clues* for the Players/PCs to deduce the best action with these.

It’s like Gygax intentionally designed this Tomb to be infuriatingly frustrating. And I believe he did – it’s part of the whole ambiance of the Tomb. The Tomb’s nonsense is maddening. This whole thing is a torture chamber of the body *and* mind. For some Players this might be fun and hilarious; for other Players this could be stupid and a waste of time.

Bullgrit


----------



## Gentlegamer

Bullgrit said:


> For some Players this might be fun and hilarious;



*raises hand*


----------



## Stoat

Freakohollik said:


> The genie is sort of interesting, but I'd guess a lot of parties would poke and prod at the urn before opening it. In this case caution is to your detriment. Missing out on the wishes sucks, but a single genie isn't strong enough to threaten a party of the recommended levels for this module.




My guess is that most groups approach the urn with extreme caution and interact with it only if they can't think of anything else to do.  I'd expect that most groups never open the urn at all.  On the other hand, I'd also assume that those groups that did decide to open the urn did so carefully with a high probability of not pissing off the Efreet.



Bullgrit said:


> The statues radiate magic and evil, (the only detection spells that work in this room), and the clue poem at the beginning of the Tomb says “The iron men of visage grim do more than meets the viewers eye.” [sic] But these statues aren’t magical, aren’t evil, and don’t actually do anything. So as much as I’ve complained that there are no clues in the Tomb for the Players/PCs to use, here we have at least four clues, yet they are completely useless. The clues aren’t even reverse psychology, or misleading to danger. They’re just useless.






Joshua Randall said:


> I think "the iron men of visage grim do more than meets the viewer's eye" is a pretty crappy part of the riddle. The statues don't *do* anything.
> 
> If the riddle were something like "the iron men of visage grim *hide *(mumble mumble rhymes with 'die')" that would make more sense.




I don't think "Iron men of visage grim . . . " is a _great_ clue, but at least it points the players in the right general direction.  That's more than I can say for the Mithral Valves, the Juggernaut, or the Agitated Chamber.   



Joshua Randall said:


> Also, the fake gems and coins painted to look like more valuable coins is a total cliche. An organically played 14th level AD&D character would have encountered this trick multiple times by this level.
> 
> It's also completely obnoxious and pointless. No adventuring party worth the name is going to be either fooled or deterred by fake treasure.




Agreed.  Assuming the PC's are initially fooled by the fake treasure (and I've known groups that would be) they can just _teleport_ back to Area 30 once they figure out they've been conned.


----------



## amerigoV

Stoat said:


> Well let's keep moving.
> 
> *Area 30. The False Treasure Room*
> A. Bronze Urn: The urn is very large and covered with gold filigree.  A thin stream of smoke pours out of thin slot in the stopper.  The Urn contains an Efreet.  If the PC's delicately open the urn, the Efreet will "perform 3 services for the party and then depart."  If the joggle the urn around while they try to open it, the Efreet will get pissed off and attack them.




This part could be very interesting. Back before everyone knew the form of the Demi-Lich, one could see a player asking "for Acererak's head on a plate!" Boy, wouldn't that be a nice surprise 

Anyone have stories on the Efreet coming into play presuming they did not piss it off? How was Wish and the Efreet written up in 1e that might impact the party's wishes (or services  - like what, shine up armor or something)? Or is this a false win for the party - ie, by now 99% of the groups would either leave it alone or poke/prod it to the point of angering the Efreet when it emerged?


----------



## Bullgrit

Bullgrit said:
			
		

> For some Players this might be fun and hilarious;





			
				Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> *raises hand*



Gentlegamer, are you saying you like this regularly, as the standard fare in a D&D adventure, or for an unusual departure from the norm?

For myself, I could see possibly being entertained by this style play for a game session or one short adventure, using pregen characters, (not regular campaign characters). Sort of like playing an adventure of _Paranoia_. But it's definitely not my preferred normal style of D&D play. The challenge of seeing just how far I could wade through the silliness of random and senseless tricks and traps could be fun for a short while. But once the disconnect* from "it's a thinking person's adventure" became apparent, (fairly early in the Tomb), I'd feel a bit baited and switched.

*The disconnect between what "it's a thinking person's adventure" means to me and what it apparently means to Gygax.

Bullgrit


----------



## Freakohollik

Bullgrit said:


> Something that immediately stands out to me as funny, is the description of the statues’ weapons. The first three weapons are described with spikes or saw teeth, but the fourth is simply a voulge. And sadly, that’s not even a clue.
> 
> The statues radiate magic and evil, (the only detection spells that work in this room), and the clue poem at the beginning of the Tomb says “The iron men of visage grim do more than meets the viewers eye.” [sic] But these statues aren’t magical, aren’t evil, and don’t actually do anything. So as much as I’ve complained that there are no clues in the Tomb for the Players/PCs to use, here we have at least four clues, yet they are completely useless. The clues aren’t even reverse psychology, or misleading to danger. They’re just useless.




Useless? Hardly. Both of those clues point you toward the statues which hide the secret door. A player that read the clue and/or detected magic on the statues wouldn't be stumped.

The only part of this criticism that's valid is that these statues radiate magic and evil despite being associated with neither. It's a fair criticism, but I've seen it in plenty of 1e modules and it's not a problem unique to the Tomb.


----------



## grodog

Just checking back in on this thread---I've got a lot of catching up to do!


----------



## Jhaelen

Bullgrit said:


> for other Players this could be stupid and a waste of time.



*raises hand*

I start getting fits just by reading "no magic works except detect evil and magic". First a game system is written featuring hundreds of interesting and/or broken spells, then to make an adventure a 'challenge' the designer decides to nerf evrything without good reason or in-game explanation. I _hate_ this kind of thing!


----------



## Freakohollik

Jhaelen said:


> *raises hand*
> 
> I start getting fits just by reading "no magic works except detect evil and magic". First a game system is written featuring hundreds of interesting and/or broken spells, then to make an adventure a 'challenge' the designer decides to nerf evrything without good reason or in-game explanation. I _hate_ this kind of thing!




This is something that bothers me about the Tomb. It seems like the Tomb should have been a lower level dungeon so that it challenges the players rather than their divination spells. It's high level so that it might attract "experienced" players. Bleh.

On the plus side, if you think your players would find it _too easy_ you could make them use lower level characters. Just scale down the 1 or 2 monsters and make the traps do less damage.


----------



## Hussar

Well, to be fair, this is a pretty standard characteristic of high level 1e modules.  The first chapter in every high level 1e module I can think of has a pretty lengthy list of spells and effects that don't work in that given module.


----------



## Bullgrit

Freakohollik said:
			
		

> Useless? Hardly. Both of those clues point you toward the statues which hide the secret door. A player that read the clue and/or detected magic on the statues wouldn't be stumped.
> 
> The only part of this criticism that's valid is that these statues radiate magic and evil despite being associated with neither. It's a fair criticism, but I've seen it in plenty of 1e modules and it's not a problem unique to the Tomb.



But wouldn't the efreet urn and the treasure chests also detect as magic (and evil for the efreet)? And they actually are magic (and evil). So, in a room with 8 things to mess with, 7 of them will detect as magic, 5 will detect as evil -- but only 3 are actually magical and only 1 is actually evil. Of the 4 false magic/evil things, 1 is the key to move forward in the Tomb. And the party has no way of determining what is true magic/evil and what is giving a false positive.

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> But wouldn't the efreet urn and the treasure chests also detect as magic (and evil for the efreet)? And they actually are magic (and evil). So, in a room with 8 things to mess with, 7 of them will detect as magic, 5 will detect as evil -- but only 3 are actually magical and only 1 is actually evil. Of the 4 false magic/evil things, 1 is the key to move forward in the Tomb. And the party has no way of determining what is true magic/evil and what is giving a false positive.
> 
> Bullgrit




I'm not sure what being detectable as both magic and evil but not actually _being_ magic or evil has to do with anything.  The statues are pretty much the only things in the Tomb that could possibly be "iron men of visage grim" so it's very unlikely that would be misinterpreted here. But then, right after perhaps the most conclusive line of the poem (!) it tells you to go LEFT twice. So why would any party bother looking at the statue to the RIGHT of the door?  After the requisite number of Transformer comments (they are "more than meets the eye") most party's will likely waste hours examining the east ("left") wall.


----------



## Joshua Randall

Left/Right are only relevant from a starting position and orientation, which of course the riddle doesn't provide.

Also, I agree with Bullgrit. What is the point of a room that gives false readings for the only two divination spells that are allowed to work? More and more, the Tomb feels like an exercise in saying "screw you" to the players, even as you frustrate their attempts to un-screw themselves.


----------



## Freakohollik

Bullgrit said:


> But wouldn't the efreet urn and the treasure chests also detect as magic (and evil for the efreet)? And they actually are magic (and evil). So, in a room with 8 things to mess with, 7 of them will detect as magic, 5 will detect as evil -- but only 3 are actually magical and only 1 is actually evil. Of the 4 false magic/evil things, 1 is the key to move forward in the Tomb. And the party has no way of determining what is true magic/evil and what is giving a false positive.
> 
> Bullgrit




No way except by poking and using the same bomb squad tactics that have got you them this far. It's the spirit of the module. I'm not sure what the problem is. Do you want Acererak to spell out exactly what to do? The poem is pretty close as it is.


----------



## Bullgrit

> Do you want Acererak to spell out exactly what to do?



This thread has managed pretty well without anyone going to this hyperbole. Do you really want the discussion to go this way?

Bullgrit


----------



## Freakohollik

Bullgrit said:


> This thread has managed pretty well without anyone going to this hyperbole. Do you really want the discussion to go this way?
> 
> Bullgrit




No. But I would be interested in your thoughts on how this should part should have been done.


----------



## Bullgrit

Freakohollik said:
			
		

> But I would be interested in your thoughts on how this should part should have been done.



How I think this should be done is irrelevant. I'm just bringing up my confusion at how it's presented. The designer claims this is a "thinking person's" adventure, and its fans around here say it is "fair" in that it can be successfully navigated using the Tomb's clues and the Players sense. I'm wondering about these clues and how Player thinking can/should work here.

Having all the clues and the answers in front me, I'm just not seeing the thinking/sense of it.

Bullgrit


----------



## Gentlegamer

Bullgrit said:


> Having all the clues and the answers in front me, I'm just not seeing the thinking/sense of it.



“When a [module] and a head collide and there is a hollow sound, is that always in the [module]?”


----------



## Hussar

Gentlegamer said:


> “When a [module] and a head collide and there is a hollow sound, is that always in the [module]?”




In this case?  I'd say yup, it's the module.  The module bills itself as being a certain way.  There's ample evidence in this thread that it doesn't live up to that billing.  Blaming the player or the DM is ignoring all the evidence that has been presented.  

There are numerous scenarios in the module where "smart" play doesn't actually help you.  The only way forward is to pixel bitch your way through and try every single combination until you hit the right one.  There's little to no guidance given to the players to allow them even the notion of what is the right answer.

If flipping a coin is as effective as planning, then there's something wrong.


----------



## Joshua Randall

Getting through the Tomb feels more like executing a QA test plan than it does like having a heroic adventure.


----------



## Freakohollik

Hussar said:


> In this case? I'd say yup, it's the module. The module bills itself as being a certain way. There's ample evidence in this thread that it doesn't live up to that billing. Blaming the player or the DM is ignoring all the evidence that has been presented.
> 
> There are numerous scenarios in the module where "smart" play doesn't actually help you. The only way forward is to pixel bitch your way through and try every single combination until you hit the right one. There's little to no guidance given to the players to allow them even the notion of what is the right answer.
> 
> If flipping a coin is as effective as planning, then there's something wrong.




I'd say it's more a difference of opinion rather than "ample evidence". It's clear that Gygax considered smart play to involve lots of caution, poking everything, and divination spells.

It's not 100% perfect, but I think the issues can easily be fixed with a prior readthrough and without any major revisions.


----------



## jonesy

First take the Tomb of Tutankhamun as your premise. Then imagine how you'd protect it from robbers if it was yours, and ramp up the difficulty all the way up. And then imagine that you are an adventurer trying to discover its secrets. I'd be pretty darn careful too.

The problem comes with this being a tournament module and there being a time limit, which I think is the reason the whole setup comes across so forced.

The only reasons for going fast are meta.

The Tomb has been there for ages and is in no hurry to be penetrated. There aren't any proper in-game reasons why the party would need to go fast.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 31.*

Area 31 is unnamed.  It is also boring. 

If you discover the secret door under the statue in Area 30, you will find yourself in a short hallway that runs due west 20 feet and then takes a right turn to the north.  (Area 32 is a secret door to the left/south).  The passage eventually leads to a 20 foot wide corridor that runs south to some doors.  The doors are Area 31.

Basically, Area 31 is a set of unnecessarily elaborate one-way doors.  You can only open them from the north.  In other words, you have to go through Area 30 to be able to open them.  Nothing, even a _wish_, will allow you find find the passage from the south.   If you open one of the doors, Acererak uses all of his titanic and godlike power to summon . . . a pit trap.

The whole thing leads back to the hall that runs from Area 21 to Area 22.  Maybe you should go back and talk to that Siren.  She seemed nice.

IMO:  zzz I feel asleep zzz.  The only marginally interesting thing about Area 31 is that it seems out of order.  You have to walk past Area 32 to get there.  

Speaking of which:

*Area 32. Secret Door*

Move the statue back in Area 30. Find the secret door. Follow a short hallway 20 feet to the west and look to your left.  You'll see a blank stone wall.

This wall contains another secret door.  A secret door so secret that no magic means of any type will detect it.  Super secret.  No attempt to force open the door by physical or magical means will work.  Secret strength!  In fact, the secret door is actually "a stone-sheathed adamantine slab of tremendous thickness."  Secret adamant!  

Careful inspection (no magic!) will reveal a tiny, metal-lined keyhole set into the wall.  If the FIRST KEY (which is the key you found way back in Area 19) is inserted into the keyhole, the super secret door will slide slowly, ever so slowly, into the floor.  Acererak's tomb is just beyond.

IMO:  Acererak's riddle says, "You've left and left and found my Tomb."  The secret door is to the left after you leave Area 30.  That's a pretty opaque clue, but it is a clue.  It also implies that there might be two significant "lefts", but this is the only one I see.  Do you see another?  Or does this line mean, "once you've left, go left."

After the secret door opens, the DM text reads, "There can be no real doubt that the end of the adventure -- one way or another -- is near."  This is codswollop.  There's nothing to indicate to the players that they are getting any closer to the end unless they can tell that the DM is looking at the second-to-last page of the module.  

The last run up to Mr. A's Tomb is dull and safe.  Lot's of powerful magic has been deployed to create super-duper one-way doors, a big ole' super ecret door, and a magically appearing pit trap.  What's lamer than a magically appearing pit trap?


----------



## jmucchiello

Stoat said:


> What's lamer than a magically appearing pit trap?



Two magic mouths. The first triggered when some enters the 10 foot area in front of "it". "Beware, pit traps ahead." The second mouth triggers 5 minutes after the first mouth if people are in the area. "Ha ha, made you look."







I'm so ashamed.


----------



## Freakohollik

Stoat said:


> IMO: Acererak's riddle says, "You've left and left and found my Tomb." The secret door is to the left after you leave Area 30. That's a pretty opaque clue, but it is a clue. It also implies that there might be two significant "lefts", but this is the only one I see. Do you see another? Or does this line mean, "once you've left, go left."




I've only found one left to take here. It is a mistake in the module. Oh well.


----------



## vic20

Stoat said:


> Or does this line mean, "once you've left, go left."




I think this reading makes the most sense.


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 31.*
> Basically, Area 31 is a set of unnecessarily elaborate one-way doors. You can only open them from the north. In other words, you have to go through Area 30 to be able to open them. Nothing, even a wish, will allow you find find the passage from the south. If you open one of the doors, Acererak uses all of his titanic and godlike power to summon . . . a pit trap.



I think this gimmick is a great concept, but it fails disappointingly in execution.

First off, most parties of the era would probably be mapping their way through the Tomb, so before they step through the one-way doors to the south, they would know those doors just opened on the earlier hallway they had already explored. They probably would just start backtracking before stepping through the trick.

But say the party does steps through the doors to the south and find themselves unable to backtrack. OK, so they have to go through areas 23 through 30 again. 

I can imagine the Players groaning and slapping their foreheads, crying, "Oh God, we have to go through all that again!?" But wait, no. Sure they have to physically walk back around, but having gone through areas 23 through 30 already, they know what to do and how to avoid the tricks and traps this second time.

Once they've gone through the false/true door, found the secret passage, opened the adamantite doors, safely navigated the pillared chamber, acquired the scepter and second key, and all that, going back through is completely safe. Even if going through 23--30 the first time was a hellish debacle full of death and embarrassment, the second time through is already solved. They just retrace the safe steps and proper actions, and they get back to where they need to be in just a few minutes.

So instead of this Area 31 being a sadistic trick, it's actually just a mild annoyance requiring the party to simply walk back through a few areas now knowing all the solutions and safe paths.



> *Area 32. Secret Door*



I find this back and forth of magic-is-required and then magic-is-useless to be poor. And then, for the previous door, inserting a key in the key hole was mocked as "foolish," (because it did damage), but here inserting a key is the solution. (Again, my complaint is not with the different solutions, but with the designer mocking the Players for not reading his mind.)



> After the secret door opens, the DM text reads, "There can be no real doubt that the end of the adventure -- one way or another -- is near." This is codswollop. There's nothing to indicate to the players that they are getting any closer to the end unless they can tell that the DM is looking at the second-to-last page of the module.



I completely agree. There is nothing especially ominous or stirring about this secret door opening. Heck, it's not even the first adamantite door they party has come to. (And they have no way of even knowing that this door is adamantite anyway.)



> Acererak's riddle says, "You've left and left and found my Tomb."



More example of the horoscope style of the poem. Write something vague that *seems* to mean something, and then let the reader interpret it after the fact to match what they experienced. I still believe that poem is gibberish, and not meant to actually serve as clues -- it's a red herring.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

So, a review of the entire riddle:



> Go back to the tormentor



Accurate advice. Also quite easy, but only as long as the players receive the description of the painting with the tormentor creature while searching area 3.



> or through the arch,



Area 5 is the first arch they'll come across, and fits the bill.



> and the second great hall you’ll discover.



The arch at area 5 teleports to three locations, only one of which is the hall in question. It's not enough to just 'go through the arch'.



> Shun green if you can,



Shun green. Gotcha. Green things in the Tomb:
- The green face in area 6. Lethal.
- Green sphere held high in area 10. Irrelevant.
- Pale Green sphere at the feet of a figure in area 10. Irrevelant.
- The tapestries in area 21. Highly dangerous. The description is easy to miss though when actually in that area. DM dependant in my opinion.
- The other green face in area 25. Not particularly dangerous on its own, but it does steal your equipment and teleport you.
- The other face in area 25 is 'tinged with bluish over the green'. Teleports party.
- When opening the door from area 25 to area 27 there is a sickly green shine. It's the sword room.

So it is good to avoid green.



> but night’s good color
> is for those of great valor.



This is highly problematic. Different people will interpret this differently and I don't think there is a universal good colour of night. Black, grey, blue, orange, purple, what? Useless tip. Might even be lethal if they think it's black and decide to use the green devil since "We'll be fine if we don't touch the green parts when we jump into its black mouth".



> If shades of red stand for blood the wise
> will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of
> magical metal - you’re well along your march.



Red things in the Tomb:
- Red tiles in the entry hall. Snakes so that they avoid two pits, and lead over four.
- Red sphere in area 10. Leads to area 13 and the three dangerous chests. And remember, the first person entering the room gets automatic damage.
- If the altar in area 14 gains a red color, it is explosive.
- When the gem in area 25 begins to explode it turns red.
- In area 29 the door turns red when attacked and bleeds blood when cut. leviation magic used against the blood turns it into a red ochre jelly.

So which of those is it referring to? Why of course *none of them*. It is referring to passage to area 15 which requires a magic ring, and which is associated with nothing red. Not unless they mess with the altar. Are they really supposed to fail here to succeed according to the riddle? And even then the colour isn't red, it's blue-red.



> Two pits along the way will be found to lead
> to a fortuitous fall, so check the wall.



There are two passages inside pits. Pretty straightforward advice.



> These keys and those are most important of all,



There are keys. Remember to look for keys.



> and beware of trembling hands and what will maul.



Completely useless advice. There is no way to avoid either the agitated room or the juggernaut based on this line, because you won't know that it refers to them until after you've gone through. Maybe not even then. There are no trembling hands in the Tomb, unless it just means for the characters to be generally careful and not go touching what they don't need to. Which should already be obvious to everyone involved.



> If you find the false you find the true
> and into the columned hall you’ll come,



As I already noted earlier, if you follow strictly what is said here, regardless of which order you take the 12/22/23 crossroads, regardless of which one you go into first, it *doesn't* lead you to the columned hall. Most likely it leads you into the sleep passage.



> and there the throne that’s key and keyed.



Investigate throne. Check.



> The iron men of visage grim do more than
> meets the viewer’s eye.



Ooh. Look at the statues.



> You’ve left and left and found my Tomb
> and now your soul will die.



This just says that there's something here, look closer. As Bullgrit said, just backtrack if you missed it. Keep looking.


So what is my final verdict? It's decent. There are a couple of points which might mislead to something bad ('night's good colour', 'shades of red', and the 'find false you find true'). But mostly following it might help you. 'Avoid the green' helps surprisingly much. But it is really vague, and a lot of this conjecture is from already knowing what the passages are referring to.

Meh.


----------



## FoxWander

Crap! I totally missed that the FIRST KEY actually opens a door.  Well now my s-blocked note earlier is just stupid.  Meh, whatever.  I was mostly waiting for a chance to go over the riddle line-by-line but jonesy beat me to it.  For the most part I agree with that analysis but I have a few differences of opinion.  Essentially, I think the riddle is accurate thru-out the Tomb BUT it's impossible for a player in the dungeon to know that at the time.  As Bullgrit mentioned, like a horoscope it's only "accurate" in hindsight.  And even then it requires some mangling to get it to REALLY fit the facts.  Anyway, on to the bits where I disagree with jonesy's analysis...

I think all these color references here are about the second great hall with all the "spheres"… 


> Shun green if you can,



…Except, there's nothing green to be shunned here so- if it's referring to the devil face it, A) makes no sense because they've already passed that, and 2)makes even less sense because of what jonesy pointed out- the devil face is both green and black!  So this next bit could get everyone annihilated…



> but night’s good color
> is for those of great valor.



I think night's color here is most likely 'black' and it fits because the one black sphere in the hall happens to be the way out to the chapel. But if you head for it first you miss this…



> If shades of red stand for blood the wise
> will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of
> magical metal - you’re well along your march.



Again, if the colors refer only to this hall, this is a decent clue. There are two 'shades of red' here.  The SCARLET one is just paint but the RED red one leads to the 3 chests and a 'loop of magical metal' needed to get passed the chapel.

Skipping ahead here…


> and beware of trembling hands and what will maul.



Totally agree with jonesy here- these clues obviously refer to stuff in the Tomb BUT they'll only ever make sense after you're dead! And they're both vague even then! So. clever and ominous- but completely pointless.



> The iron men of visage grim do more than
> meets the viewer’s eye.



Well, stupid as this is it IS accurate- one of them does more- it covers a secret door.



> You’ve left and left and found my Tomb



Yeah, this one I completely useless though. There's no combination of two lefts that actually leads to the Tomb's tomb. As I've mentioned earlier, this can easily lead to pointlessly searching the east wall in room 30 since it's the "left" wall when you're first confronted with the "iron men".  But if it's meant for AFTER they find the door behind the statue then the Tomb is only ONE left.  Or, if you miss the super-secret door to that, then TWO lefts puts you in the hall of one-way doors. So this clue is either wrong, wrong again, or leads to a complete waste of time.


So- the riddle is somewhat accurate for many things but only from the DM's perspective (or that of fans who will pour over every detail of the Tomb- perhaps on a message board- and still won't be able to agree on what it means.  ).  But still, it's largely useless to PCs because it does very little to help the party either avoid or find anything.  Mostly it's just another time-waster for PCS attempting to divine it's meaning. So in that respect it is perfect- because just like the rest of the Tomb its main role is to amuse the DM while the PCs bumble about trying to "solve" it.


----------



## Stoat

We're getting ahead of ourselves, aren't we?  There's a lot going on in Area 33 we'll want to talk about.  

Still and all, thanks [MENTION=10324]jonesy[/MENTION] and [MENTION=1356]FoxWander[/MENTION] for your analyses.  I think FW is right to remind us that the red sphere in Area 10 eventually leads to the "loop of magical metal."  I'm also going to stand up a little for "left and left and found my Tomb."  Area 32 is to the left after you leave Area 30.  The clue is pretty vague, but it's better than that business about "Trembling hands."

There's also the "Low and high for gold, to find a tale untold" riddle from Area 8.  Back in the summer, Celebrim and Raven Crowking had essentially opposite interpretations of that one.  Anybody want to try and parse it out now?

Finally, and I plan to talk about this after I do Area 33, consider how the riddle gets less and less useful/detailed as it goes along.  The first stanza is a pretty good roadmap from Area 3 to the Chapel.  The second stanza has some useful clues about the route to the Columned Hall, but omits significant details.  The third stanza contains only partial, sketchy clues, and it makes no mention at all of the dangers waiting between the Columned Hall and Area 33.


----------



## Bullgrit

Regarding the "clue" riddle: 







> Snakes so that they avoid two pits, and lead over four.



The riddle itself is very much like the path it is hidden in. The path snakes and twists around, leading you around a couple of traps but right into other traps. This fact should be the first and definitive warning that the riddle cannot be trusted any more than the red path. Before you even get the riddle, it has twisted and snaked you into deadly trouble. Why would following the riddle be any better/wiser than following the path it is in?

It's like believing the "LOVE" written on the knuckles of the fist that just punched you in the face.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> There's also the "Low and high for gold, to find a tale untold" riddle from Area 8.  Back in the summer, Celebrim and Raven Crowking had essentially opposite interpretations of that one.  Anybody want to try and parse it out now?



It goes:
“Look low and high for gold, to hear a tale untold. The archway at the end, and on your way you’ll wend.”

Celebrim's interpretation was basically that it was about the arch in area 5, and that it was itself a puzzle (which it is).

RC's version was that it's about the gold sphere leading to area 11, and also a warning about the arch in area 10A.


Well, what golden things are there in the Tomb?
- The gold sphere in area 10, which leads to area 11.
- The gold (but plate over iron only) chest in the chamber of the three chests, with the snakes.
- The mace at the foot of the stairwell to the false crypt.
- The solid gold couch in the false crypt.
- Golden key halves in area 19.
- The tapestries in the agitated chamber. (they are both green and gold)

There are others, but they are so late it mostly likely has nothing to do with them.

I think RC's interpretation hits closest to home. There's both a golden thingy and an arch in area 10 (and the arch is 'at the end').

But whether the party realizes that the arch is a trap from the clue is another matter. As warnings go 'The archway at the end, and on your way you’ll wend' is as vague as you can get.


----------



## Stoat

jonesy said:


> It goes:
> But whether the party realizes that the arch is a trap from the clue is another matter. As warnings go 'The archway at the end, and on your way you’ll wend' is as vague as you can get.




I can't get behind the idea that "on your way you'll wend" is any kind of warning.  It's too vague.


----------



## Stoat

*Area 33. The Crypt of Acererak the Demi-Lich* 

Huzzah!  The "stone-sheathed adamntite slab" from Area 32 slowly descends into the floor, revealing at long last the fabled Crypt of Acererak.  What horrors lurk within?

"The smallish 10' x20' burial vault has an arched ceiling with a 25' peak.  There is absolutely nothing in the room."

Oh. 

There is a divot about two feet square and a few inches deep in the middle of the floor.  If you look close, you'll see a tiny keyhole in the middle of the divot.  Maybe you should put the FIRST KEY there?  

BOOM!  Using the FIRST KEY causes a devastating explosion!  You are blown smack up against the ceiling Wile E. Coyote style, taking 5d6 points of damage.  That'll teach you to put keys into keyholes!

To open the divot, put the SECOND KEY (the one from Area 28) into the keyhole.  

Turn the SECOND KEY three times to the right.  If you don't nothing will ever happen.  If you do, the floor underneath you will buckle and pitch upward at tremendous speed!  All but the northernmost five feet of the room is rising toward the ceiling, fast. The DM should count to 5.  Anybody who hasn't moved to safety at the end of the count is smooshed up against the ceiling.

Turns out there was a mithril vault under the floor.  It is 10 feet wide and 15 feet long.  The door to vault, I absolutely kid you not, is unlocked and untrapped.  You can pull it open at absolutely no risk to yourself.  Go ahead, quit screwing around and open it.

Inside, is this:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic33.jpg

There's loot here: Gems and a ton of magic items.  All of your stuff that you lost in the teleporting arches is here too.  Also 2 cursed swords and 1 cursed spear of backbiting, because Acererak is not going to not screw you over at the last minute.

If any of the treasure in the crypt is touched, the dust in the crypt swirls into the air and forms the shape of a man.  It advances and threatens the party, but does not attack.  _It never will attack._  It just goads the PC's into attacking it.  If they whale on it enough, the dust turns into a ghost. The 14th level pregen cleric can turn the Ghost if he rolls 7 or better on a d20.  Otherwise, IIRC, ghosts are pretty nasty monsters to fight.  So leave it alone and just scoop all the loot up into a sack.

Finally, Acererak himself is here.  Ain't he handsome?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/ToH_Gallery/ToHGraphic33a.jpg

Acererak won't bother you if you don't bother him.  Let me repeat that. _Nothing bad will happen if you leave the skull alone._  However, "if any character is so foolish as to touch the skull of the demi-lich, a terrible thing occurs."  The skull floats up into the air and automatically drains one PC's soul.  The PC dies.  Acererak settles back down, "sated."  He will only attack a second time if you keep hassling him.  Every time anybody touches or attacks the skull, it pops up and murders somebody.  But it only attacks in retaliation.  If you leave it alone, you can loot the tomb in peace.

Acererak can only be killed by a handful of spells that I would never think to cast and by a handful of magic weapons that can't be found in the Tomb.  If anybody ever killed him, then either (a) they entered the Tomb twinked out with powerful magic weapons; or (b) they straight up cheated.

IMO:  This business with the FIRST KEY and the SECOND KEY wears me out.  Sometimes trying a key blasts you across the room, sometimes trying a key is the only way forward.  There is never, ever any indication which it is.  AND if you guess wrong, Gary Gygax will make fun of you.

I don't know that there's much to say about Mr. A.  Take the loot and leave him alone.  The skull is blinged out with all kinds of valuable gems, so it makes sense that somebody would try to grab it.  But after the skull kills one PC, why keep fooling around with it?  Oh, it killed two of you.  Why not leave it alone?  Whoops!  Three down.  It's the same sort of "stop hitting yourself" dynamic that causes entire parties to feed themselves to the GGD.

And Acererak's vulnerabilities are weird.  A ranger with a Sword of Sharpness can hurt him.  A fighter with the same weapon is screwed.   A magic-user casting _Power Word Kill_ is wasting his time, unless he becomes ethereal or astral first.  Then, the spell will automatically kill Mr. A.  

So that's it.  I have a few concluding thoughts about the module.  I'll post them next week.  Y'all have a Merry Christmas in the meantime.


----------



## jonesy

And so, into the crypt stepped the remnants of the late paranoid wizards party. 

A cleric, a fighter, and the rogue who'd barely escaped the wizards fireball staff rampage in the vat room.

All through this time the fighter had done nothing to contribute to the exploration. This was because he'd been carrying something between his hands that he'd found earlier in the Tomb. Something he'd sworn would prove to be useful. Something he himself had been cursing ever since he'd stepped into it. Earlier he'd had the wizard help him remove it onto a blanket, which he'd then been carefully holding.

But all this was fine with the cleric and the rogue who'd managed to survive the entire way while their party got smaller and smaller. They'd outwitted the Tomb, they'd survived.

And then the cleric died from opening the door to the crypt.

And then the mountain of wisdom and luck that the rogue had been up to this point goes and picks up the skull. And the fighters player is shouting "No! No! Put it down!"

And the rogue stumbles back, and the skull rises, and then..

..the fighter throws the web that was impervious to everything except magical fire and wishes over the skull. The web, and the blanket he'd been carrying it plastered on.

And then we had to stall the ending of the game as we pondered whether Acererak could see through the blanket or not. Or if he'd even react to the web being on him as the text talks about someone touching or striking. Could he brake free? He doesn't have access to wishes or he'd done something with them. Can he cast fire spells? No mention of anything like that. The web was stuck over him, and the blanket over them. Can you blind a demilich? But he might still be able to sense the characters through them, and do the soul sucking thing. The text in the module was very little help.

In the end it was pointless when we realized that it was the fighter whose soul Acererak wanted, and he acts instantaneously (since he chooses a mage over a fighter over a cleric over a thief).

So, interesting idea and all, and good job getting the web there and trying to use it, but the moment the skull rose the fighter went down and so did the web, and got stuck to the floor and itself.

And the rogue ran and never looked back.


----------



## Votan

Stoat said:


> A magic-user casting _Power Word Kill_ is wasting his time, unless he becomes ethereal or astral first.  Then, the spell will automatically kill Mr. A.




I always found this to be especially odd.  Does power word kill normally work on undead?  And what is this astral/ethereal stuff?  Few magic users are going to be 18th level and have memorized this spell to fight a Lich.  To go astral you really need two ninth level spells . . .

It seems mostly to be have been included to be able to say "there is at least one way to kill the demi-lich with a single action".  

As for other approaches, even with a boa load of magic weapons does it really seem likely that the party will outlast the demilich?  Unless you happen to know precisely what to do, experimentation will be disasterous.


----------



## Gentlegamer

Don't forget the crown and scepter solution!


----------



## jonesy

Votan said:


> I always found this to be especially odd.  Does power word kill normally work on undead?  And what is this astral/ethereal stuff?  Few magic users are going to be 18th level and have memorized this spell to fight a Lich.  To go astral you really need two ninth level spells . . .



Astral Spell (Evocation) is a ninth level spell.

Astral Spell (Alteration) is a seventh level spell.


----------



## Bullgrit

> *Area 33. The Crypt of Acererak the Demi-Lich*



This is perhaps the worst case of Wall of Text in all D&D module history. This is one of the most complicated encounters in D&D publication, and it is explained in only a few dense, long paragraphs, filling a complete full page, (two columns).



> "The smallish 10' x20' burial vault has an arched ceiling with a 25' peak. There is absolutely nothing in the room."
> 
> Oh.



Yeah, kind of anticlimatic after the designer said about opening the previous door, "There can be no real doubt that the end of the adventure -- one way or another -- is near."



> Turn the SECOND KEY three times to the right.



If the riddle/poem at the beginning of the Tomb were useful, (made sense), the combination here should be turning two times to the left. But no.



> The door to vault, I absolutely kid you not, is unlocked and untrapped. You can pull it open at absolutely no risk to yourself. Go ahead, quit screwing around and open it.



LOL!



> Inside, is this:
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/To...HGraphic33.jpg
> 
> There's loot here: Gems and a ton of magic items. All of your stuff that you lost in the teleporting arches is here too.



*Here* is where the earlier note belongs. "There can be no real doubt that the end of the adventure -- one way or another -- is near." This area looks like the end.



> If any of the treasure in the crypt is touched, the dust in the crypt swirls into the air and forms the shape of a man. It advances and threatens the party, but does not attack. It never will attack. It just goads the PC's into attacking it. If they whale on it enough, the dust turns into a ghost. The 14th level pregen cleric can turn the Ghost if he rolls 7 or better on a d20. Otherwise, IIRC, ghosts are pretty nasty monsters to fight. So leave it alone and just scoop all the loot up into a sack.



I think the odds of the PCs fighting this thing depend on how the DM describes and plays the scene, especially compared to how he has described and played monster encounters before, (in this Tomb and in his campaign). And how intent he is on tricking the Players/PCs into fighting it.



> Acererak won't bother you if you don't bother him. Let me repeat that. Nothing bad will happen if you leave the skull alone. However, "if any character is so foolish as to touch the skull of the demi-lich, a terrible thing occurs." The skull floats up into the air and automatically drains one PC's soul. The PC dies. Acererak settles back down, "sated." He will only attack a second time if you keep hassling him. Every time anybody touches or attacks the skull, it pops up and murders somebody. But it only attacks in retaliation. If you leave it alone, you can loot the tomb in peace.



To put the temptation in perspective: the jewels set in the skull are worth a total of 130,000gp. That's a pretty hefty gp and xp score in a pretty small, (and easily portable), package.



			
				jonesy said:
			
		

> And then the mountain of wisdom and luck that the rogue had been up to this point goes and picks up the skull. And the fighters player is shouting "No! No! Put it down!"
> <snip>
> In the end it was pointless when we realized that it was the fighter whose soul Acererak wanted, and he acts instantaneously (since he chooses a mage over a fighter over a cleric over a thief).



Acererak's choice of "most powerful" classes is kind of odd. In A's, (Gygax's?), estimation, magic-user > fighter > cleric > thief. Is it ironic that the class most likely to disturb A's skull is the last to be targeted for destruction by the skull?



> But after the skull kills one PC, why keep fooling around with it?



I think this will again depend on how the DM describes and plays the skull rising and draining. The text says the skull rises and scans the party before draining, and then goes back to rest. If the DM describes the skull going back to rest immediately, I could see it killing only one PC. But if the DM has a pause between the soul drain and the going to rest, I could see the Players/PCs assuming it will continue to kill unless it is stopped. In that case, I could see a TPK coming from the battle. (Does touching with a weapon or spell count to activate the skull's retribution?)

What if the PCs scoop up the skull in a _bag of holding_ or something? I'm picturing an Indiana Jones slight of hand maneuver, <swip> "Got it. Let's go."



> And Acererak's vulnerabilities are weird. A ranger with a Sword of Sharpness can hurt him. A fighter with the same weapon is screwed. A magic-user casting Power Word Kill is wasting his time, unless he becomes ethereal or astral first. Then, the spell will automatically kill Mr. A.



Yeah, the very specific weaknesses of the demi-lich are really weird. Not only the spells, and the fighter-ranger-paladin weapon choices, but a thief using a crypt gem does 1 hp damage per 10,000gp value of the gem -- but only one of the 3 gems found in the crypt, (valued at 10k, 50k, and 100k, so a total of 16 hp damage possible that way)?

Bullgrit


----------



## Hussar

Bullgrit said:
			
		

> Acererak's choice of "most powerful" classes is kind of odd. In A's, (Gygax's?), estimation, magic-user > fighter > cleric > thief. Is it ironic that the class most likely to disturb A's skull is the last to be targeted for destruction by the skull?




Funny how even in 1976, it was recognized that wizards were the top of the heap for power.  

IIRC, didn't a holy avenger or +5 weapons do full damage?  It's been many, many years, but, we did this adventure after doing G/D/Q and my paladin had a holy avenger and a hammer of thunderbolts (hey, sue me, we were like 12 years old  ).  As I recall, we smooshed the skull in one round.  Hammer dumps out like 50 points of damage in a hit and at +5 (plus another 3 for gauntlets plus another 4 or 5 for girdle of giant strength which the hammer lets you stack) the odds of me missing were very, very small.


----------



## amerigoV

Hussar said:


> F It's been many, many years, but, we did this adventure after doing G/D/Q and my paladin had a holy avenger and a hammer of thunderbolts (hey, sue me, we were like 12 years old  ).  As I recall, we smooshed the skull in one round.  Hammer dumps out like 50 points of damage in a hit and at +5 (plus another 3 for gauntlets plus another 4 or 5 for girdle of giant strength which the hammer lets you stack) the odds of me missing were very, very small.




I cannot XP you, but a legit roll on the treasure tables resulting in a Hammer of Thunderbolts for my PC later resulted in the DM putting big "Xs" through much of the DMG treasure system 

Good times.

Merry Christmas Acererak!


----------



## Votan

jonesy said:


> Astral Spell (Evocation) is a ninth level spell.
> 
> Astral Spell (Alteration) is a seventh level spell.




Fair enough.  On the other hand, don't you get attacked by demons if you go astral inside the tomb?  1E magic users generally feared melee creatures like that and so you'd really need to know the combo in advance to even try for it.


----------



## jonesy

Votan said:


> Fair enough.  On the other hand, don't you get attacked by demons if you go astral inside the tomb?  1E magic users generally feared melee creatures like that and so you'd really need to know the combo in advance to even try for it.



We already talked about the demons earlier in the thread. They aren't much of a threat compared to the stuff in the Tomb. Just extra exp.

Although, if they did appear at this late stage it would make the final confrontation that much trickier. Imagine killing Acererak and then getting pasted by his pets.


----------



## Squire James

The Protection from Evil spell is not a panacea, but it can definitely hold the demons at bay long enough for Mordenkainen to finish the job.  That was clearly who Gary was thinking of when he crafted the Power Word Kill vulnerability.  As nice a guy he was in other respects, I can easily imagine him giving a post-Tomb group of players a smug grin followed by the statement that his character could have solved the whole Tomb in about 15 minutes!


----------



## Stoat

Hussar said:


> IIRC, didn't a holy avenger or +5 weapons do full damage?  It's been many, many years, but, we did this adventure after doing G/D/Q and my paladin had a holy avenger and a hammer of thunderbolts (hey, sue me, we were like 12 years old  ).  As I recall, we smooshed the skull in one round.  Hammer dumps out like 50 points of damage in a hit and at +5 (plus another 3 for gauntlets plus another 4 or 5 for girdle of giant strength which the hammer lets you stack) the odds of me missing were very, very small.




As far as weapons go, Big A worries about the following:

Fighter: Vorpal Blade
Ranger: Sword of Sharpness, Vorpal Blade, +5 weapon
Paladin: Sword of Sharpness, Vorpal Blade, +5 weapon, +4 weapon.

He's AC -6 and has 50 hit points.


----------



## jonesy

What are your opinions on this line:



> Destruction of the demilich earns a suggested 100,000 experience points.



No, not that one. The one right after it:


> This considers all actions within the Tomb of Horrors to gain the crypt. Treasure taken out should add an additional 1 experience point for every 2gp of value.



"..all actions within the Tomb of Horrors to gain the crypt.."

So, if they got to the crypt, but didn't kill Acererak, and still got out with the treasure, what would YOU give them?


----------



## Bullgrit

Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> Treasure taken out should add an additional 1 experience point for every 2gp of value.



Is there any other published module that has such a statement about the gp-to-xp award? I have often wondered why Gygax halved the gp-to-xp award for the Tomb.

Bullgrit


----------



## Hussar

Stoat said:


> As far as weapons go, Big A worries about the following:
> 
> Fighter: Vorpal Blade
> Ranger: Sword of Sharpness, Vorpal Blade, +5 weapon
> Paladin: Sword of Sharpness, Vorpal Blade, +5 weapon, +4 weapon.
> 
> He's AC -6 and has 50 hit points.




Ahh, then I did remember it rightly.  Paladin with Hammer of Thunderbolts=squished Acererak.


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> Is there any other published module that has such a statement about the gp-to-xp award? I have often wondered why Gygax halved the gp-to-xp award for the Tomb.



I can't recall the same type of experience alteration, but Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth does have a fairly complex section about giving out experience for the treasure found. It talks about stockpiling treasure, only rewarding for treasure taken to civilization, only giving out 90% value in Gnome Vale, giving less for 'poor play', letting 'good players' train their characters on a level up without needing to go back to civilization, and even disallowing 'poor players' to level up at all.


----------



## Bullgrit

I wrote up the treasure and xp available in the _Tomb of Horrors_ on my Treasure and Experience in Classic D&D Adventures page on my web site. Here is the info from that research and page:

* * * 

*Tomb of Horrors*

_Tomb of Horrors_
by Gary Gygax

An adventure for character levels 10-14, for AD&D1.

Total gp value:* 305,790 gp

Total magic treasure:**
gem of seeing (12 uses, which will probably all be used up in the Tomb)
+1 ring of protection (which will probably be destroyed in the Tomb)
6 healing potions
scroll of 7 spells (1st & 2nd level spells only)
ring of fire resistance
potion of dimunition
flail +1
sword of defending +4
“cursed sword” x2 (no explanation for which kind of cursed sword)
cursed spear of back biting
12 potions (rolled for randomly)
6 scrolls (rolled for randomly)
1 ring (rolled for randomly)
1 rod (rolled for randomly)
1 staff (rolled for randomly)
3 miscellaneous magic items (rolled for randomly)

* Not included in the gp value above: Acererak’s skull contains 130,000 gp worth of gems. [Also see commentary below.]

** There are a few ways Tomb raiders can have [all] their items stripped from them and collected in the last chamber. If those characters died or gave up the adventure, their items can be found and recovered by successful parties. (Finders keepers, losers weepers!) [Also see commentary below.]

————————————

Commentary

I didn’t include the value of Acererak’s skull gems for three reasons:

1. I’ve seen some posit that Acererak’s skull is actually the last trap/test in the Tomb. PCs should leave it alone and just take the other treasure.

2. Whenever the skull is touched, it rises and drains the soul, (no save), of a character, (not necessarily the character who touched it). The method of killing the skull is so convoluted that it is doubtful the PCs will manage the feat on the spot.

3. If the adventurers do manage to kill the skull, they must crush the gems in the skull to release drained souls.

So the likelihood of gaining even some of the skull’s gems is very low.

There is a relatively very small amount of more treasure or magic items that can be gained, (and lost), in one chamber of the Tomb, but the actual item is determined randomly.

As for xp value in this adventure:

Treasure xp is half the normal, (1xp per 2gp value), so without defeating Acererak’s skull, the total xp value of this tomb raid is 152,895 xp. Defeating the skull adds 100,000 xp to the total, for 252,895 xp. So 150K or 250K xp to be split among the surviving characters. (Six surviving characters = 25,483 or 42,149 xp each. For reference: a 12th level fighter needs 250,ooo xp for 13th level; a magic-user needs 375,000 xp.)

Compare all of this to the total gp and xp that can be earned in Hall of the Fire Giant King (the adventure of equivalent level): 1 million gp, 1.6 million xp — 3.5 times more gp, and 10.6 or 6.4 times more xp.

Bullgrit


----------



## Bullgrit

jonesy said:
			
		

> What are your opinions on this line:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ToH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Destruction of the demilich earns a suggested 100,000 experience points.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No, not that one. The one right after it:
> 
> 
> 
> ToH said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This considers all actions within the Tomb of Horrors to gain the crypt. Treasure taken out should add an additional 1 experience point for every 2gp of value.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> "..all actions within the Tomb of Horrors to gain the crypt.."
> 
> So, if they got to the crypt, but didn't kill Acererak, and still got out with the treasure, what would YOU give them?
Click to expand...


Jonesy, that is a very good question. As you can see in my above post, I took this to mean that destroying the skull gave 100,000 xp, but you could still get xp (halved) from all the other gp looted from the Tomb. But that "all actions within the Tomb of Horrors to gain the crypt" line does complicate the idea. No other boss monster in other adventures has this kind of note about their xp awards.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> Treasure xp is half the normal, (1xp per 2gp value), so without defeating Acererak’s skull, the total xp value of this tomb raid is 152,895 xp. Defeating the skull adds 100,000 xp to the total, for 252,895 xp. So 150K or 250K xp to be split among the surviving characters. (Six surviving characters = 25,483 or 42,149 xp each. For reference: a 12th level fighter needs 250,ooo xp for 13th level; a magic-user needs 375,000 xp.)
> 
> Compare all of this to the total gp and xp that can be earned in Hall of the Fire Giant King (the adventure of equivalent level): 1 million gp, 1.6 million xp — 3.5 times more gp, and 10.6 or 6.4 times more xp.



Looking at those numbers it really is baffling why you'd need to halve the xp for the treasure. Maybe it's because it's such an early module, but now it just makes the Tomb look cheapskate. Especially when so few parties ever get the full price.

What about the solid gold couch, adamantite doors, mithril valves and doors and vault?


----------



## Gentlegamer

Something to keep in mind about the xp totals - the module was originally written for OD&D, which had smaller xp requirements to level up past name level than AD&D. It's possible the xp suggestion is a hold over, and may be less stingy than it seems. 

Given the difficulty of the dungeon, I personally see no reason to not give full xp per gp recovered, however. I would possibly give double xp, depending on the performance of the players.


----------



## Bullgrit

> What about the solid gold couch, adamantite doors, mithril valves and doors and vault?



My numbers include the gold couch because the module gives a gp value, (it apparently is intended to be treasure). But I don't include the various Tomb structural pieces, as there is no gp value for them, (they apparently are not intended to be treasure). 

To my knowledge, there is no gp value for adamantite or mithril in any AD&D1 book. It would be interesting to calculate the doors' value, though.

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> To my knowledge, there is no gp value for adamantite or mithril in any AD&D1 book. It would be interesting to calculate the doors' value, though.
> 
> Bullgrit




Well the VALVES OF MITHRAL are easy, they have a cost per pound listed.  They're 14' tall x 28' wide x 3' thick so 1,176 cubic feet. 1 cubic foot of steel weighs 490 lbs. Mithral is half the weight of steel, 245 lbs per cu. ft..  

1176 x 245 = 288,120 lbs of mithral

288,120 x 500 gp/lb. = 144,060,000 gp!   Holy Schnikes!


----------



## jonesy

FoxWander said:


> 288,120 x 500 gp/lb. = 144,060,000 gp!   Holy Schnikes!



That would be well worth all of the trouble actually.

But I don't think that's a 1st edition price. Sounds like 3rd to me. I don't think they had specific prices for them back in 1E. Mithral was simply woven into armor to make it +4 and adamantite made +5 armor (and +3 armors were considered meteorite steel, which sounds really odd now).

But if the price is even close to that same ballpark, bazinga.


----------



## Stoat

Bullgrit calculates a total of 252,895 exp available in the module.

If Mithril is worth only 1 gp a pound, and Foxwander's calculations are correct, the doors would be worth 288,120 exp.


----------



## jonesy

Stoat said:


> Bullgrit calculates a total of 252,895 exp available in the module.
> 
> If Mithril is worth only 1 gp a pound, and Foxwander's calculations are correct, the doors would be worth 288,120 exp.



Good point. We can then safely say that the Tomb is the treasure. 

Wait, that means that the vault where the final treasure and all the equipment is, is worth more than everything in it and the Tomb.


----------



## Joshua Randall

Here we are at the final encounter. I thought I would have some brilliant, scathing put-down that would expose the Tomb as arbitrary, cockamamie, and overrated.

But instead, I've got nothing.

I mean, one of the spells you can use to buy yourself a round against the demilich is... _forget_. What can I possibly say that is more insulting than that?


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> If Mithril is worth only 1 gp a pound, and Foxwander's calculations are correct, the doors would be worth 288,120 exp.



Half the xp for gp. So 144,060 xp. Still...



			
				jonesy said:
			
		

> Wait, that means that the vault where the final treasure and all the equipment is, is worth more than everything in it and the Tomb.



And it is completely untrapped.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Joshua Randall said:


> I mean, one of the spells you can use to buy yourself a round against the demilich is... _forget_. What can I possibly say that is more insulting than that?



Yeah, but how exactly is the mage supposed to use the spell? Acererak strikes instantaneously, and then sinks back down on his own. What's the point where using the spell makes any sense?


----------



## Bullgrit

jonesy said:
			
		

> Yeah, but how exactly is the mage supposed to use the spell? Acererak strikes instantaneously, and then sinks back down on his own. What's the point where using the spell makes any sense?



Well, in fairness, the text does say the skull rises and scans the group for the most powerful individual to drain. I guess the _forget_ spell could be used during that scan.

But I think Joshua Randall was meaning: _forget_ is a 2nd level m-u spell. A 2nd-level spell "will force the skull to sink down without taking away a soul." (No save is mentioned.)

_Exorcise_ is a 4th-level cleric spell that duplicates what _forget_ does.

_Shatter_, a 2nd-level m-u spell, does 10 hp damage to the skull. (Skull has 50 hp.)

_Dispel evil_, a 5th-level cleric spell, does only 5 hp damage to the skull.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> Well, in fairness, the text does say the skull rises and scans the group for the most powerful individual to drain. I guess the _forget_ spell could be used during that scan.



I.. guess. That implies a fair DM. 

Let's say one allows forget to be used like that. One mage casting forget and another using shatter at the same time could really humiliate him. You'd probably need to go through every spell with augury to find out about it (but they are at the beginning of the list).


----------



## Joshua Randall

jonesy said:


> Yeah, but how exactly is the mage supposed to use the spell?



Exactly.



> What's the point where using the spell makes any sense?



It never does. That's my point.

Bullgrit's list is a good illustration of what I was trying to say. The spells that affect A. are completely arbitrary both in selection and in effect.

The claim that _Tomb of Horrors _is a thinking person's adventure has been completely demolished.

It is an adventure for bomb squad members or QA testers, willing to figure out which arbitrary idea Gary had in mind for how to approach each encounter. A. himself is only the last and most egregious example of that.


----------



## jonesy

I am simply fascinated by how this thread refuses to go off-topic.



Joshua Randall said:


> The claim that _Tomb of Horrors _is a thinking person's adventure has been completely demolished.



Let's not go from one extreme straight to the other. I recall Bullgrit saying the same to me much earlier in the thread. But that was about something else. 

Since this was the first appearance of the demilich (I think) you could call all of its properties arbitrary, regardless of what they would have been. No player of the era would have known anything about it beforehand.

And since this was a tournament module prototype some of the problems can be excused. Excused but not forgotten as the module does need a DM to go through it with a fine tooth comb before presenting it to players.

All of which isn't to deny that it has been an overly hyped module.


----------



## jonesy

By the way, I have an idea of why the page numbers are reversed on the forum page.

You know how if you place the word 'print' into the topic the thread turns into print form and no-one can reply to it?

I think the ] letter at the end of the title somehow flipped the numbering around. I haven't seen any other threads with that.

I wonder if there are instructions somewhere for what title commands there might be in vBulletin.


----------



## FoxWander

jonesy said:


> That would be well worth all of the trouble actually.
> 
> But I don't think that's a 1st edition price. Sounds like 3rd to me. I don't think they had specific prices for them back in 1E. Mithral was simply woven into armor to make it +4 and adamantite made +5 armor (and +3 armors were considered meteorite steel, which sounds really odd now).
> 
> But if the price is even close to that same ballpark, bazinga.




D'oh! Yeah, that price is totally 3rd edition.  Got rushed to post before leaving for work and wasn't even thinking. But still- even at 1 gp/lb. that would be almost be worth the trouble of straight digging down from the top of the skull hill to retrieve them. And mithral has got to be worth more than 1 gp/lb.


----------



## Gentlegamer

Joshua Randall said:


> It is an adventure for bomb squad members or QA testers, willing to figure out which arbitrary idea Gary had in mind for how to approach each encounter. A. himself is only the last and most egregious example of that.



So how do you explain the scepter and crown solution?


----------



## Votan

Gentlegamer said:


> So how do you explain the scepter and crown solution?




Bad design on the part of the scepter and crown.  Is this an item that can kill deities if you trick them into using it?   If so, is it not actually the most valuable thing in the tomb (as opposed to a trap)?  

Seriously, this simply kills with no conditions or saves is lazy design and begs for creative uses in all sorts of situations.


----------



## Hussar

Votan - to be fair, in AD&D, there are ALL sorts of things like this.  You could abuse stuff six ways from Sunday because they hadn't really come to grips yet with legalese rules codification to prevent it.

Heck, how many groups tried to cast "Create Water" inside a target?


----------



## Stoat

Gentlegamer said:


> So how do you explain the scepter and crown solution?




IMO: The scepter and crown solution is a perfect meeting of good players and good DM'ing.  The players are engaged with the game and the setting, and they are ready to think laterally to solve their predicament.  The DM is willing to "say yes" and allow an inventive solution to work.  It's a great moment. 

Of course, if the players are going through the module as part of an ongoing campaign (as opposed to a one-off at a tournament) the trick will get old in a hurry if they keep trying it.  Such is life.

The scepter and crown solution was also (IIRC) an on the spot ruling made by Gygax at the request of the referee who was running the module.  I'm not sure I would say that the crown and scepter PC's "figured out which arbitrary idea Gary had in mind," but I think it is fair to say that they won by appealing to Gygax's discretion.  I also think that Gygax's exercise of discretion was to some extent "arbitrary."  He could have reached any number of different rulings if he had cared to.

Which is consistent with the rest of the module.  We've seen a number of encounters in the Tomb that could play very differently depending on how the DM handled them -- the timing of the Agitated Chamber, and the precise way the Juggernaut works are the first examples that come to mind.  

I hope to sit down and organize my thoughts this weekend, but I'll get a little ahead of myself here.  I don't think the Tomb of Horrors gives the players anything like a "walkthrough".  I don't think it is possible to get through the Tomb simply by reasoning through Acererak's clues.  

On the other hand, I think a group of cautious players can minimize most of the worst risks in the Tomb with a few fairly straightforward tactics.  (Most significantly, by sending an expendable scout ahead of the main group.)  A group that makes liberal use of magic and rests frequently should be able to make it to Area 33 without a TPK.


----------



## Bullgrit

Hussar said:
			
		

> Votan - to be fair, in AD&D, there are ALL sorts of things like this. You could abuse stuff six ways from Sunday because they hadn't really come to grips yet with legalese rules codification to prevent it.



Yes, we have to give at least a little slack in our critique of things like this. We have to remember that when Gygax wrote this, (and other things of the very early era), he may have had a relatively very large game group for play testing, but even a few dozen players under one DM doesn't give the vast array of ideas that thousands and thousands of players under hundreds and hundreds of DMs give.

Just because the Players in one group don't abuse or break something doesn't mean that others won't try. And a designer, especially in the beginning stage of the game, can be forgiven for not thinking of every possible abuse someone else could think of.

Sure, Gygax's group may not have thought to put effort into something like looting the adamantite and mithril doors from the Tomb; they may have all agreed, (probably passively and unspokenly), that PCs don't deconstruct the dungeons. Heck, I could even imagine Gygax making the excavation work extremely difficult and dangerous just to discourage those who did think of and try it. That was his style, (judging from what I've read of his style). "You didn't have the proper amount of support for the scaffolding around the adamantite door, so it falls, crushing the fighter. No save. He's dead." He admitted in several articles that he made rulings like that to punish tricksy Players. It was his style for keeping control of abuse.

When I critique the _Tomb of Horrors_, I try not to judge it by how devious Players could twist and undermine things in ways the designer didn't expect. I try to judge it on things the designer intentionally designed and planned. 

For instance, the scepter and crown and the wishing gem are things that, yes, could be crazy powerful when taken outside the Tomb by Players/PCs. But I think it's apparent that the designer didn't intend or consider that when making this module. Taking non-treasure things out of the Tomb weren't part of the plan, and so the designer shouldn't be too derided for that oversight.

But, for me, it's the designer's intent within the framework of the Tomb that bothers me. The various arbitrary things stick in my craw.

In one area, detection spells don't work at all. But the Players/PCs have no way of knowing they don't work there. They cast _detect X_ and get no pings. Does that mean there's no X? Or did the spell just not work at all? Then in another area, detection spells work, but they give false positives. Then in another area, detection spells are required as the only method of finding/discovering something.

And then you have situations where you must cast specific spells in ways that don't intuitively/thematically/logically fit the spell. Like using _remove curse_ to unlock a door. Can you fault a Player for not making the mental connection that a lock could be a curse? Or the spells useful against the demi-lich's skull. _Disintegrate_ is useless, but _shatter_ does 10 hp damage? A thief using magical sling stones does nothing, but a thief using very expensive gems found in the demi-lich's treasure pile is effective?

It's these things that Gygax intentionally designed into the Tomb that make the adventure faulty, to me. Requiring the Players/PCs to search everything in one area so they can move forward, but then punishing the Players/PCs for searching in the next area is a fault.

Rewarding blind leaps in one area, but punishing such in another is a fault.

Preventing certain actions in one area, but requiring them in another area is a fault.

Now, I have to admit, that my calling these things "faults" comes from angle of the premise that all the hype about the Tomb is accurate. The hyped premise that the Tomb is fair and gives clues and is logical. That premise is how I like my "thinking person's" adventures.

But, to be honest, I don't think that Gygax intended the Tomb to be fair and logical. I think he intended it to be a pure madhouse of aggravation with harm and death. I mean, he designs many areas with a spectacle of dungeon dressing and designs and colors, all screaming out to be considered for/as clues. But in the end, nothing there is actually a clue or hint. 

It's like being handed a kaleidoscope and mistaking it for, (and trying to use it as), a telescope. Or being handed Rorschach cards and mistaking them for, (and trying to use them as), clue notes. 

Presuming that the Tomb is designed, (by Acererak), as a logical and "fair" challenge is the first mistake of the Players/PCs. Trying to use any of the presented information as logical and "fair" clues is the second mistake of the Players/PCs. [Going to and into the Tomb at all is Mistake Zero.]

_Tomb of Horrors_ is to standard D&D what _Paranoia_ is to standard RPGs.

Bullgrit


----------



## jonesy

Hussar said:


> Heck, how many groups tried to cast "Create Water" inside a target?



Quite many, I'm thinking. And that's one of those situations that requires a DM who's on top of his game, because the 1E DMG is full of little tidbits of information that the players aren't privy to. Like this one:



> Create Water: It is not possible to create water within living material, i.e.
> it is not possible to cast the spell upon a creature and create liquid in any
> part of its body.


----------



## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> Presuming that the Tomb is designed, (by Acererak), as a logical and "fair" challenge is the first mistake of the Players/PCs. Trying to use any of the presented information as logical and "fair" clues is the second mistake of the Players/PCs. [Going to and into the Tomb at all is Mistake Zero.]
> 
> _Tomb of Horrors_ is to standard D&D what _Paranoia_ is to standard RPGs.
> 
> Bullgrit




Yes, I think this is an excellent summation of what we've proven in this thread. The Tomb is only a "thinking person's dungeon" in that it is not merely a chain of combats set in a dungeon. So the absence of combat means one must "think" their way through it- even if there is no rhyme or reason to solving some of it's traps and tricks. 

Remember also, the Tomb was designed primarily as a way for Gary to foil his best players...


			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> There were several very expert players in my campaign, and this was meant as yet another challenge to their skill—and the persistence of their theretofore-invincible characters. Specifically, I had in mind foiling Rob Kuntz's PC, Robilar, and Ernie Gygax's PC, Tenser.



Since it was literally meant as DM vs. PC, fair and logical were, I think, the last things Gary was thinking of.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> Votan - to be fair, in AD&D, there are ALL sorts of things like this.  You could abuse stuff six ways from Sunday because they hadn't really come to grips yet with legalese rules codification to prevent it.
> 
> Heck, how many groups tried to cast "Create Water" inside a target?




I once managed to make the incredibly-hard percentile roll to give one of my characters a psionic power (something like a 4% chance IIRC), and he got the power to transmute small quantities of metal.

The one use I remember putting it to was to get past a really tough hobgoblin warrior. I transmuted his gold ear-rings and necklaces to mercury, and managed to convince the DM that this would cause him to die of mercury poisoning pretty much instantly.

We were about 14 at the time.


----------



## Bullgrit

FoxWander said:
			
		

> Remember also, the Tomb was designed primarily as a way for Gary to foil his best players...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary Gygax said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There were several very expert players in my campaign, and this was meant as yet another challenge to their skill—and the persistence of their theretofore-invincible characters. Specifically, I had in mind foiling Rob Kuntz's PC, Robilar, and Ernie Gygax's PC, Tenser.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since it was literally meant as DM vs. PC, fair and logical were, I think, the last things Gary was thinking of.
Click to expand...


I can't give you xp again, but you deserve some for posting that relevant quote. Thanks.

Bullgrit


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## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> I can't give you xp again, but you deserve some for posting that relevant quote.



I'd cover for you, but the same thing happened to me.


----------



## shmoo2

jonesy said:


> I am simply fascinated by how this thread refuses to go off-topic.
> 
> All of which isn't to deny that it has been an overly hyped module.




I'd think that’s the general consensus of those who’ve continued to comment in this thread – Tomb of Horrors is overrated and doesn't really reward thinking so much as bomb squad tactics. Most of the dissenters who were participating earlier have stopped joining in the discussion.

So how do those who feel S1 is overrated account for its legendary status?

1)	The name: “Tomb of Horrors” is a name, really, for the adventure product, not an in-character name for the locale (such as, say, White Plume Mountain or Ghost Tower of Inverness). But as such, it is a challenge to players, right on the cover.  

It’s a badge of honor for DM’s to run the Tomb of Horrors, and a special merit for players to get through it - There are “I survived the Tomb of Horrors” bumper stickers, but none say “I survived Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth”.  I think the adventure wouldn’t have quite the reputation it does if it had been named Tomb of Acererak.

2)	The forward: Gygax’s forward to ToH serves the same purpose – it builds up S1 as the ultimate challenge for the best players, and declares that only those who are smart enough will beat it.

3)	Linearity: Earlier in the thread we remarked on the linearity of the dungeon. This has helped make the Tomb a communal experience. Everyone who’s played or DMed in S1 has gone through the Great Hall, puzzled over the Great Green Devil and the Arch of Mist, and then proceeded through the Hall of Spheres, Chapel, Laboratory, Agitated Chamber, Pillared Throne Room, False Treasure Room, and Crypt. In that order.

Unlike a discussion of playing Ravenloft, or Keep on the Borderlands, or Isle of Dread where play experiences can vary so much from group to group, everyone gets the full Tomb of Horrors experience.

4)	The art: The included art booklet with illustrations to show what the PCs see room-by-room makes to module. I can’t imagine trying to run the adventure without it. A lot of the illustrations are really evocative – especially the Great Hall, GGD, the Chapel, and exploding gem. They make one feel one is exploring an ancient tomb, and often help make sense of the dense text descriptions.

5)	Great encounters: Some of the rooms in the Tomb are really terrific, even if they don’t actually test players ability to think. The Great Hall especially, which everyone (even those who TPK there) encounters in just terrific fun to explore. The pictures for this area have so many details. There is so much going on with the red path, and the pit traps, Area 4, and the Arch of Mist and the Great Green Devil face. The chapel and the pillared throne room are similar (though not as good).


----------



## Joshua Randall

shmoo2 said:


> So how do those who feel S1 is overrated account for its legendary status?



Ignorance and nostalgia.


----------



## jonesy

Joshua Randall said:


> Ignorance and nostalgia.



I take my nostalgia with self-delusion, not ignorance, thank you very much.


----------



## Bullgrit

Good points, [MENTION=6847]shmoo2[/MENTION].







			
				shmoo2 said:
			
		

> So how do those who feel S1 is overrated account for its legendary status?



In the late 70s and early 80s _Tomb of Horrors_ was just another D&D module, with no hype or reputation. I bought it off the shelf at my local book store about the same time I got _Against the Giants_, _Secret of Saltmarsh_, _Dwellers of the Forbidden City_, and _Slavepits of the Undercity_, and other classic modules.

ToH was different than the standard D&D adventure, but it wasn’t *different!* _Expedition to Barrier Peaks_ was different, too. So was _Assassin’s Knot_, and _Land Beyond the Magic Mirror_, and _Beyond the Crystal Cave_, and others – each an AD&D module from the classic era. Being a trap-filled linear dungeon made ToH outside the ordinary standard for D&D adventures of the time, so it’s rather ironic that in these later years it has been held up as sort of the ultimate example of “old school” D&D. It was an outlier, by intention and self admittance; it is not a standard example of classic D&D play. (The standard is more like those examples given in the previous paragraph.)

I think ToH started getting its hype and reputation as a backlash against what some consider the “new school” style of play. Some consider deep immersive role playing, thespianism, and storytelling to be a terrible bastardization of what D&D should be. Some hold up the _Dragonlance_ series as the epitome* of this “new school” play style. So if that direction is ultimate bad, the exact and extreme opposite direction must be ultimate good, right? What’s the extreme opposite direction? _Tomb of Horrors_.

* I also believe _Dragonlance_ has gained a reputation as ultimate new school that it doesn’t really live up to when you actually read the original modules.

So, even though most D&D players in the classic era didn’t actually play D&D regularly in the play style of ToH, the Tomb started getting this attention and hype as the ultimate example of the golden age and old school of D&D. With that hype came exaggerations and wishes for it to be the grand thing. It came to represent classic D&D to some people, even though it was not a standard example of classic D&D even in its original days. And if something is the ultimate representation for an era, it can’t have flaws or else it reflects badly on its era. It must *GLOW!*

And since most people haven’t read ToH, personally, the hype was believed. I have read it, a few times even before this thread, so I was very knowledgeable of what’s actually in the ToH. And every time I read some of the hype about it, it stunned me. “Where are they getting these claims?” I thought.

Unfortunately, as a side effect of the hype making ToH = old school D&D : old school D&D = ToH, some folks think that saying ToH isn’t the ultimate greatness means that classic D&D wasn’t ultimate greatness. But that connection is mythical. Standard, regular, common classic D&D was not like ToH. ToH was by intention and design outside the norm for classic D&D. It wasn't designed to represent its era; it didn't have to glow.

Now, whether someone _likes_ ToH or not has more to do with their personal play style preferences than what standard classic D&D was like. In the big picture of classic D&D, _Tomb of Horrors_ is just another example of the varied styles of classic D&D. The hype around ToH does a disservice to it specifically and to classic D&D in general.

Bullgrit


----------



## Stoat

I offered my opinion regarding the module's popularity a few weeks ago:



Stoat said:


> As for the module's popularity, I think there are several reasons for it.  For one thing, the Tomb of Horrors is _old._  It was written in 1975 and first published in 1978.  In other words, it's older than AD&D.  It was there at the beginning, and that fact alone is going to give some cachet.
> 
> Moreover, and more important, the Tomb is different from the vast majority of published adventures.  It is extremely light on combat.  So far, the only unavoidable fight we've seen is the grey ocher jelly in Area 19.  As far as I know, it is the only classic module based around tricks and puzzles instead of monster encounters.  It sticks out, and people remember it for that reason.
> 
> Further, the encounters we've looked at so far are memorable.  We can argue about whether the Great Green Devil or the gender-bending Chapel or the Agitated Chamber are fair, but I think we can all agree that they stick in the mind.  The encounters are original and weird.  They present unusual challenges, and failing to meet those challenges results not just in death, but in strange and gruesome outcomes.  PC's might be disintegrated, they might wind up naked back where they started, they might have their gender reversed, they might get turned into slime.  You don't forget something like that.  You talk about it for years after it happens.
> 
> Finally, Gygax talked a big game about the Tomb.  Check out a few quotes from Wikipedia: "There were several very expert players in my campaign, and this was meant as yet another challenge to their skill—and the persistence of their theretofore-invincible characters. Specifically, I had in mind foiling Rob Kuntz's PC, Robilar, and Ernie Gygax's PC, Tenser."  Gygax wanted to be "ready for those fans [players] who boasted of having mighty PCs able to best any challenge offered by the AD&D game."  When Gary Gygax says that he wrote a module to test the most expert players with the mightiest PC's, he's going to get attention.


----------



## Hussar

In all honesty, I think the high points have been hit here.  The art thing certainly makes it stick out in my mind.  It was the first module that I saw that came with it's own art book.  And (mostly) very cool art as well.  

And, let's be honest, despite all the criticisms (and quite valid ones IMO), this is a fun module.  It's similar to something like Barrier Peaks or Land Beyond the Magic Mirror in that it's completely nonsensical.  It's popular for the same reason that something like Time Bandits or Army of Darkness is popular - cult following.  Army of Darkness is a bad movie.  But, I still love the heck out of it.

ToH, really, isn't a very good module.  But, I still love it to pieces.


----------



## amerigoV

I will add to the great analysis above by emphasizing a couple of things:

1. The name and the nature of the module changes both play and expectations of the experience. If you ask people what D&D means to them, many will 1/2 joke 1/2 serious answer "kill monsters and take their stuff." That just does not happen here, and its reputation reinforces it. The module sets that tone by having the 3 "entrances" all being traps (with one of them continuing on the way if you do it right).

This reinforces what other have said - its a different experience. But tied to it is a different expectation of experience, which leads to different approach to play. When I played the 3.x version a couple of years ago, my approach and expectations of the experience were 180 degrees opposite of my normal D&D experience -- and that added to the fun.

2. The poem is key. I posted long ago in this thread that it serves many purposes. It provides hope that the Tomb can be beaten (it may be false hope). It gets players to have their PCs touch stuff they rightly would not do so after the first room or two. It drives PCs/Players to move forward. It also allows everyone to participate, as everyone can provide their interpretation. It also provides the "see, I told ya!" that every player loves to say when their interpretation of something is right (even if it is dumb luck).

I am not sure how conscious Gygax was of what the poem serves in this type of situation, but its clear that he recognized its value. Necropolis by Gygax is the grandchild of ToH. In there, you guessed it, is an obscure riddle/warning to a tomb.

3. The artwork is huge,  IMO. That graphic of entrance hall just screams "this is different. Pay attention!" 

4. I just like that none of my friends will play it, even as a one-shot. Its rep may be overblown, or it may be spot on as a killer dungeon. But the fact that some refuse to play it based on reputation alone gives the module staying power.

(And I must be right since this is my 666th post on EnWorld....)


----------



## jonesy

amerigoV said:


> 1. The name and the nature of the module changes both play and expectations of the experience. If you ask people what D&D means to them, many will 1/2 joke 1/2 serious answer "kill monsters and take their stuff." That just does not happen here, and its reputation reinforces it.



Now I know what the motto for the Tomb should be:

"Get killed by the dungeon and have your stuff taken away."


----------



## Bullgrit

As everyone here has explained, _Tomb of Horrors_ has plenty of legitimate reasons to be legendary in the D&D culture. What really surprises and confuses me is why do so many people hype it as something it is not? 

The whole it's the ultimate old school adventure, it's fair and logical with clues, it will be successfully navigated by smart and wise Players/PCs paying attention and thinking and figuring out the clues -- these things it is demonstrably not. So why present it as such?

The last several posts above this one give plenty of good points for its glory, but when ToH is brought up in other discussions, those points are not given. It's like trying to sell a world-class Baja racer dune buggy as a high-priced luxury sedan.

Bullgrit


----------



## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> As everyone here has explained, _Tomb of Horrors_ has plenty of legitimate reasons to be legendary in the D&D culture. What really surprises and confuses me is why do so many people hype it as something it is not?
> 
> The whole it's the ultimate old school adventure, it's fair and logical with clues, it will be successfully navigated by smart and wise Players/PCs paying attention and thinking and figuring out the clues -- these things it is demonstrably not. So why present it as such?
> 
> The last several posts above this one give plenty of good points for its glory, but when ToH is brought up in other discussions, those points are not given. It's like trying to sell a world-class Baja racer dune buggy as a high-priced luxury sedan.
> 
> Bullgrit




I think the dichotomy in the Tomb's reputation comes from equal parts nostalgia and ignorance. Older gamers played the Tomb 'way back when' and they only half remember all the details. What they do recall is rose-colored by all the wonder of their early days of gaming.  All of it is bigger and better (and deadlier) than it actually was.  Even analyzing the Tomb as we've done here won't change that large-than-life *feeling* they have of what the Tomb was. (Keep in mind, I consider myself one of the "they" here.)

And then there's the part where most gamers have only really skimmed when reading thru the module. As we've mentioned more than once, the Tomb's dense text and stream-of-consciousness presentation make it a challenge to really 'get' everything that's going on.  I've certainly been surprised by a few things that I'd have sworn worked differently because of this thread. Combine these two things and you get the overall opinion of the Tomb that most people seem to have that, as we've found, differs from the reality.

--------

As for my thoughts on what makes the Tomb great.  I'll throw out one more  that hasn't been covered in all the excellent points above.  For all it's faults and craziness, the Tomb is one of D&D's few examples of a "realistic", true dungeon.  It's a deathtrap, pure and simple.  It has no monsters because how would they survive in such a place?  It makes no illogical provisions for survival because why should a deathtrap be survivable?  It's a place designed by a crazy and powerful person to protect something valuable.  It's rooms and themes fit the whims of it's creator (Acererack or Gary, take your pick).  It's as eccentric as the person who would make such a thing would have to be so it requires no suspension of disbelief to justify it's existence. 

Too often published dungeons have logical holes which put them at odds with even a fantastical "reality."  Why does the dragon live in a cave with no entrances large enough for it to use?  Why is this orc guarding a random collection of powerful items rather than using them to fight? What exactly do all of these monsters eat? Where do they sleep? Or go to the bathroom?  Why do they even live in a place filled with pits and deadly traps to begin with?  If the PCs can barely survive just walking around there how do the monsters manage?  

The Tomb of Horrors has none of these faults. Random, illogical tricks and traps- sure.  Radically changing expectations of what works from one room to the next- why not.  Arbitrary, unavoidable death- of course!  A decent representation of what an actual dungeon in a fantasy setting might actually be like- definitely!  And to me, that's a big part of the Tomb's staying power.


----------



## Stoat

Several folks have already broken down Acererak's riddle.  I'm going to break down the Tomb.  The following is the quickest, safest walkthrough for the Tomb of Horrors: 

First, locate the true entrance to the Tomb.  Avoid the two false entrances.  All three entrances are hidden behind loose earth on the north side of the burial mound. You'll need to dig to find any of them. The true entrance is between the two false entrances, roughly in the center of the hillside.  

The true entrance leads to Area 3, a long, wide corridor.  Follow the corridor to the south.  There are 5 pit traps in the hallway, but it is possible to avoid crossing them.  Note that the red path in Area 3 crosses 3 of the 5 pit traps.  Ignore Area 4; it is a pit trap.  

Study the red path if you want to learn Acererak's riddle.  The clues it provides are in brackets below.

Ignore Area 6, the Face of the Great Green Devil [Shun green if you can,].  It is a lethal trap.  

Approach Area 5, the Arch of Mist  [Go back to the tormentor or through the arch].  Poke the glowing stones around the edge of Area 5 in the correct order -- Yellow, Blue, Orange.  When the mist clears, walk through the arch while standing on the red path.  Failure to follow the proper procedure is not immediately lethal, but teleports you either to Area 7 or Area 3.

Arrive in the Area 10, the Great Hall of Spheres [and the second great hall you'll discover].  Ignore Area 10a, the misty arch at the end of the hall, it is a (non-lethal but sucky) trap.  

Follow the crawl space behind the Red Sphere. Follow it to the secret door and continue to Area 13, the Chamber of Three Chests.  The PC taking point will automaticall fall and take 1d6 points of damage.  Inside Area 13, open the Silver Chest.  Be aware that it contains a non-lethal dart trap.  Take the Ring of Protection+1 and return to Area 10 [If shades of red stand for blood the wise will not need sacrifice aught but a loop of magical metal].  Ignore the other two chests.  They are trapped and start dangerous combats.  

Back in Area 10, follow the crawlspace behind the Black Sphere [night's good color is for those of great valor.]  Find the secret door.  You have a 1 in 6 chance.  If you cannot find the secret door yourself, you need to get the _Gem of Seeing_ from Area 11.  That gem is the only magical way to find the secret door.  

Assuming you found the secret door, enter Area 14, the Chapel of Evil.  Take the treasure from the first three rows of pews.  Do not open the row of pews closest to the altar, it is a non-lethal, strength draining trap.  Do not touch the Opalescent Blue Altar, it is a damage dealing trap.  Do not enter the Archway of Glowing Orange, it is a gender bending, alignment swappig trap.  Carefully inspect the southeast corner of the Chapel.  You have a 4 in 6 chance of finding the way forward.

The way forward is Area 15, the Stone Gate.  Stick the Ring of Protection+1 from Area 13 into the slot [sacrifice aught but a loop of magical metal -- you're well along your march.]  A secret door will open.  Follow the hallway beyond down the stairs and to the west.  You'll find a door with a pit trap behind it; a second door with a pit trap behind it; and a third door with a pit trap behind it.  There's a secret door at the bottom of the third pit trap [Two pits along the way will be found to lead to a fortuitous fall, so check the wall].  

Open the secret door in the third pit trap.  Another secret door is immediately on your left, to the east -- Area 17, the Magical Secret Door.   Area 17 can only be found by using a _Gem of Seeing_, "a similar spell" (presumably _True Seeing_), or _Detect Magic_.  It can only be opened by casting _Disepl Magic_ or _Remove Curse_.  Find and open it.

Follow the hallway behind Area 17 to Area 19, the Laboratory and Mummy Preparation Room.  There are three stone vats in the room.  Ignore the first.  The middle vat contains half a golden key submerged in deadly acid.  Drain the acid out of the vat, or find a way to safely fish out the half-key.  The last vat contains the other half of the golden key and a deadly slime.  Fight the slime, and recover the second half of the key.  This combat is mandatory.  Join the two halves together, and you have the FIRST KEY [These keys and those are most important of all].

Beyond Area 19 is Area 20, the Huge Pit Filled With 200 Spikes.  If you try walking across Area 20, you'll take some damage.  Cast _Fly, Levitate, Teleport, Dimension Door, Jump, Spider Climb_ or just use a rope to get across.

There's a secret door to the north 60 feet past Area 20.  Open it to find Area 21, the Agitated Chamber [beware of trembling hands].  Area 21 is the most dangerous room you have to enter in the Tomb.  The floor shakes randomly, and the tapestries will turn to green slime if you damage them.  The best way through is to say off the floor.  Fly to the northwest corner of the room, _carefully_ move aside the tapestry (possibly using _Telekinesis_), and find the secret door on the other side.  

Follow the hallway east beyond Area 21.  Avoid the pit trap in the intersection and go north.  Open the false door and find the secret door on the other side [If you find the false, you'll find the true].  Go through the secret door and immediately look down.  There is a secret trapdoor set in the floor.  Open the secret trapdoor and go down.  Do NOT continue north or you will encounter another lethal trap (the Juggernaut).

Continue along until you find Area 24, the Adamantite Door.  Shove three swords into the slots in the door and enter Area 25, the Pillared Room [into the columned hall you'll come].

Do not touch the pillars in Area 25 they are a potentially dangerous trap.  Ignore the doors to the north and the gem in the southeast corner.  Proceed directly to throne set against the southern wall [there is the throne that's key and keyed].  Take the golden crown but do not try to wear it.  Touch the silver end of the scepter to the silver crown inlaid on the base of the throne.  This will open the way forward.

Proceed to Area 28, the Wondrous Foyer.  Pick up the SECOND KEY [These keys and those are most important of all].  Keep in the mind that the SECOND KEY is protected by an _Antipathy_ spell, so picking it up might be a challenge.  Area 28 leads directly to Area 29, the Valves of Mithril.  Open them by placing the gold end of the scepter into the depression between the two doors.  Trying to use either key in the Valves of Mithril will cause damage.  Using the wrong end of the scepter will automatically kill you.

Follow the doors to Area 30, the False Treasure Room.  Carefully open the bronze urn to obtain the services of an Efreet.  Move the statue to the northeast.  Doing this requires three people who each have a least a 16 strength.  You might need the Efreet's help.  

Follow the hallway to the west until it turns north.  There is a secret door to the south.  Open the secret door with the FIRST KEY and enter Area 33, the Crypt of Acererak the Demilich.  

The room looks empty, but there is a small keyhole in the floor.  Move the whole party as far north as possible.  Have the fastest moving PC put the SECOND in the keyhole and turn it to the right 3 times.  (Note that using the FIRST KEY will cause a damaging explosion).  As soon as you finish turning the key, run north.  Otherwise, you will be squased to jelly as the floor rises up to the ceiling.

Enter the vault and take everything that isn't (a) nailed down or (b) a jewled skull.  Ignore the ghostly creature that appears to threaten you, it's harmless.  Ask the Efreet to put the Gold Crown from Area 25 onto the skull and to touch the crown with the silver end of the scepter from Area 25.  Tell the DM that Gygax himself approved of this course of action, and laugh as Acererak is turned to fetid powder.  

Return to town.  Buy Ale and Whores.

Note that there is only one mandatory combat in the Tomb (the slime in Area 19) and only two one unavoidable death traps (Area 21, the Agitated Chamber, and the risk of being killed trying to open Area 29.).  There are also nine covered pit traps to bypass, each of which is potentially fatal.

i]Edit: Upon review, I decided Area 29 is not a mandatory deathtrap[/i]


----------



## Bullgrit

Tomb of Horrors said:
			
		

> These keys and those are most important of all



Doesn't this imply at least 4 keys? "These" means more than one, as does "those," yes?

Bullgrit


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## Lexeme

I just wanted to drop in here and mention that I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  Everyone's contributions have been great.

I've been running the 4e conversion of the Tomb for a group of my friends.  Despite losing gear to the arches - shield for the Fighter and complete loss of gear for the Rogue - everyone seems to be enjoying it.  If I were in their place, I think I'd find it a frustrating experience, for basically all the reasons spelled out throughout this discussion.  Primarily, it's difficult to proceed with any mentality aside from "methodically explore everything. Expect that everything is trapped."

One of my players even said this is exactly how he wants to play D&D.  Perhaps it's just been a nice respite from the long combats in 4e.  Perhaps it's just nice as a change of pace.  Perhaps it's because the module is a bit less deadly in the 4e conversion.  Whatever it is, my players are having fun, and really that's all that counts.


----------



## TarionzCousin

FoxWander said:


> Well the VALVES OF MITHRAL are easy, they have a cost per pound listed.  They're 14' tall x 28' wide x 3' thick so 1,176 cubic feet. 1 cubic foot of steel weighs 490 lbs. Mithral is half the weight of steel, 245 lbs per cu. ft..
> 
> 1176 x 245 = 288,120 lbs of mithral
> 
> 288,120 x 500 gp/lb. = 144,060,000 gp!   Holy Schnikes!



When one of my D&D groups played the 3.5E "Level 30" dungeon a few years ago, the DM wasn't prepared for us to haul the mithral golems out of the dungeon. He had no idea how much they were worth--but one of the players knew.

Hey, is the *Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth* going to get a thread like this? Please...?


----------



## Remus Lupin

Lexeme said:


> I just wanted to drop in here and mention that I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  Everyone's contributions have been great.




I second, third, and fourth this. I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread!


----------



## vic20

Remus Lupin said:


> I second, third, and fourth this. I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread!




Agreed. Fantastic thread!

I don't believe it's been mentioned yet in this thread (could be wrong), but the Tomb of Horrors figures very prominently in "Ready Player One", an amazing book by Ernest Cline. Wil Wheaton does the audio book narration, which is how I enjoyed it. Ready Player One


----------



## Jhaelen

TarionzCousin said:


> Hey, is the *Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth* going to get a thread like this? Please...?



I somehow doubt it, although for me it's one of the very few 'classic' modules I enjoyed playing. In some ways it's the opposite of the Tomb; little thought has been spent on trying to create a dungeon that 'makes sense' as a whole. I guess I liked it because it was similar to the early adventures I'd written myself.

Anyway, my thanks go to Stoat for starting such an interesting and focused thread!


----------



## Remus Lupin

vic20 said:


> Agreed. Fantastic thread!
> 
> I don't believe it's been mentioned yet in this thread (could be wrong), but the Tomb of Horrors figures very prominently in "Ready Player One", an amazing book by Ernest Cline. Wil Wheaton does the audio book narration, which is how I enjoyed it. Ready Player One




I read this last summer. Great book, lots of fun for those of us who grew up in the 1980s.


----------



## Flatus Maximus

Another round of applause for an awesome thread. Thanks, everybody.


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## amerigoV

Lexeme said:


> I just wanted to drop in here and mention that I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.  Everyone's contributions have been great.




Definitely. I am sad it is at its end. This was the only thread holding me here. I play Savage Worlds now, and I tire of the "will she or won't she" talk of this board (5e).



> One of my players even said this is exactly how he wants to play D&D.  Perhaps it's just been a nice respite from the long combats in 4e.  Perhaps it's just nice as a change of pace.  Perhaps it's because the module is a bit less deadly in the 4e conversion.  Whatever it is, my players are having fun, and really that's all that counts.




Although one can argue its "fairness", etc, it clearly is the best known adventure that is about exploration. I cannot speak for others, but 3e got me too much in the habit of "ok, here is the result of all your random Search/Spot checks....". I know it is bad play on my part, but I am not sure 3e modules did anything to encourage more interactive searching. Its not "I look here", its really about "I do this". That has an excitement for some players -- playing around with something in a dungeon to understand what it does and not get killed in the process. That is an element I try to focus on in my fantasy games - making exploration meaningful. I call for a skill check only if there is a chance of something going wrong, or to provide hints that the player can act on. I think the ToH is a great reminder that Exploration is just as exciting to some players has hacking something to bits are for others (and roleplaying a scene for others).


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## Flatus Maximus

amerigoV said:


> Definitely. I am sad it is at its end. This was the only thread holding me here. I play Savage Worlds now, and I tire of the "will she or won't she" talk of this board (5e).




Perhaps someone will pick up the torch and start a similar thread on another classic module?

Not it!


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## Stoat

Back in June, I started this thread after the comments here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/306672-tomb-horrors-example-many-one-kind.html got me thinking about the Tomb of Horrors 

As I noted then, this line of posts caught my attention:



Raven Crowking said:


> The module gives you clues in the form of riddles, and those riddles are, essentially, a "walk through" for the entire module (if you can parse them out carefully).  On the other hand, if you fail to notice the first riddle, or if you ignore the clues provided, well, the module can kill you pretty quickly.






the Jester said:


> I recall one post about a newbie gamer who had never played an rpg before with a first level pc making it to the end, grabbing some loot and fleeing for his life.






WizarDru said:


> Unlike some modules, with traps that have no possible way of being decoded short of painful experience (iirc, Tsocjanth has several of these...there is no clue that one color is good and another bad, that one face on a pedestal is a boon and the other a curse, etc.), ToH presents players with a chance to figure things out.




I'd heard that about the Tomb before, and I really wanted it to be true.  I want there to be an adventure that's full of clues and riddles that allow the players to succeed just by figuring things out.  But the _Tomb of Horrors_ ain't that module.  As far as I can tell, most of the encounters, and almost all of the big set piece deathtraps, are not accompanied by clues, riddles, or hints that clever players can use to bypass them.  

IMO, anyone advocating the "walkthrough" theory of the Tomb has to account (at least) for the following:

1. Area 14 can only be accessed via a secret door.  Other than the fact that the door is in a dead-end crawlspace, there is no hint or clue of it's existence.  According to the text of the module, there are two ways to find this secret door.  Roll a 1 on a d6 or use the gem of seeing from Area 11.  There's no flavor text or description that clever PC's can use to help them notice the door.  They can use a naked die roll or a magic doo-dad.  If the PC's fail to find the door, they cannot proceed.

2. Area 17, for similar reasons.  It's a secret door that the PC's have to pass.  It can only be found using magic, it can only be opened using magic.  Getting through Area 17 is mandatory, and it cannot be done by solving riddles or figuring out clues.

3. Area 21.  This is one of the few mandatory deathtraps in the Tomb.  There is, as far as I can tell, no hint or clue that the PC's can use to figure out the risks it presents.  Sure, there are strategies to avoid the dangers of Area 21, and I'd expect many groups to use them.  For example, given the number of deadly pit traps in the Tomb, it makes sense for the PC's to fly as much as possible, and flying PC's won't set off Area 21.  But casting _Fly_ isn't following a walkthrough.  

4. The juggernaut in Area 23.  The PC's open a door.  They fall asleep.  The DM rolls some dice, and if the PC's are unlucky they get squashed.  Again, there is no clue for "thinking persons" to use to avoid this hazard.  

5. Area 29.  How are the PC's supposed to know which end of the Scepter opens the Valves of Mithril?  

6. Although not a deathtrap, the FIRST KEY and SECOND KEY are dangerous.  Using the wrong one at the wrong time causes damage.  How are the PC's supposed to know when to use which key?


----------



## jmucchiello

There was talk about "fixing" the module. I would this the simple place to start would be to redo the poem (and modify a few of the encounter areas). My ability with poetry is at odds with going first with this idea though. 

One idea might be to include more than one poem (adding the next poem a good junction point in the adventure) so that the poem is really long and really obvious.


----------



## terrya

Bullgrit said:


> Yes, we have to give at least a little slack in our critique of things like this. We have to remember that when Gygax wrote this, (and other things of the very early era), he may have had a relatively very large game group for play testing, but even a few dozen players under one DM doesn't give the vast array of ideas that thousands and thousands of players under hundreds and hundreds of DMs give.
> 
> Just because the Players in one group don't abuse or break something doesn't mean that others won't try. And a designer, especially in the beginning stage of the game, can be forgiven for not thinking of every possible abuse someone else could think of.
> 
> Sure, Gygax's group may not have thought to put effort into something like looting the adamantite and mithril doors from the Tomb; they may have all agreed, (probably passively and unspokenly), that PCs don't deconstruct the dungeons. Heck, I could even imagine Gygax making the excavation work extremely difficult and dangerous just to discourage those who did think of and try it. That was his style, (judging from what I've read of his style). "You didn't have the proper amount of support for the scaffolding around the adamantite door, so it falls, crushing the fighter. No save. He's dead." He admitted in several articles that he made rulings like that to punish tricksy Players. It was his style for keeping control of abuse.
> 
> When I critique the _Tomb of Horrors_, I try not to judge it by how devious Players could twist and undermine things in ways the designer didn't expect. I try to judge it on things the designer intentionally designed and planned.
> 
> For instance, the scepter and crown and the wishing gem are things that, yes, could be crazy powerful when taken outside the Tomb by Players/PCs. But I think it's apparent that the designer didn't intend or consider that when making this module. Taking non-treasure things out of the Tomb weren't part of the plan, and so the designer shouldn't be too derided for that oversight.
> 
> But, for me, it's the designer's intent within the framework of the Tomb that bothers me. The various arbitrary things stick in my craw.
> 
> In one area, detection spells don't work at all. But the Players/PCs have no way of knowing they don't work there. They cast _detect X_ and get no pings. Does that mean there's no X? Or did the spell just not work at all? Then in another area, detection spells work, but they give false positives. Then in another area, detection spells are required as the only method of finding/discovering something.
> 
> And then you have situations where you must cast specific spells in ways that don't intuitively/thematically/logically fit the spell. Like using _remove curse_ to unlock a door. Can you fault a Player for not making the mental connection that a lock could be a curse? Or the spells useful against the demi-lich's skull. _Disintegrate_ is useless, but _shatter_ does 20 hp damage? A thief using magical sling stones does nothing, but a thief using very expensive gems found in the demi-lich's treasure pile is effective?
> 
> It's these things that Gygax intentionally designed into the Tomb that make the adventure faulty, to me. Requiring the Players/PCs to search everything in one area so they can move forward, but then punishing the Players/PCs for searching in the next area is a fault.
> 
> Rewarding blind leaps in one area, but punishing such in another is a fault.
> 
> Preventing certain actions in one area, but requiring them in another area is a fault.
> 
> Now, I have to admit, that my calling these things "faults" comes from angle of the premise that all the hype about the Tomb is accurate. The hyped premise that the Tomb is fair and gives clues and is logical. That premise is how I like my "thinking person's" adventures.
> 
> But, to be honest, I don't think that Gygax intended the Tomb to be fair and logical. I think he intended it to be a pure madhouse of aggravation with harm and death. I mean, he designs many areas with a spectacle of dungeon dressing and designs and colors, all screaming out to be considered for/as clues. But in the end, nothing there is actually a clue or hint.
> 
> It's like being handed a kaleidoscope and mistaking it for, (and trying to use it as), a telescope. Or being handed Rorschach cards and mistaking them for, (and trying to use them as), clue notes.
> 
> Presuming that the Tomb is designed, (by Acererak), as a logical and "fair" challenge is the first mistake of the Players/PCs. Trying to use any of the presented information as logical and "fair" clues is the second mistake of the Players/PCs. [Going to and into the Tomb at all is Mistake Zero.]
> 
> _Tomb of Horrors_ is to standard D&D what _Paranoia_ is to standard RPGs.
> 
> Bullgrit




I think your 100% right whilst also being 100% wrong. You talk about the inconsistancies (forgive awfull spelling) as if there a bad thing, when there exactly what makes it a perfect dungeon. In alot of the games ive played recently you know exactly how a dungeon is going to work before you even go in, theres such a norm that its dull.The fact that one thing could be the golden ticket in one room but get you blown up in another is exactly what people loved about the tomb. It left you sat there not wanting to do anything but suck your thumb and hope you wake up! What your 100% right about is the fact that allot of people misinterupt the tomb as a fair challenge and a true test of skill. It is a test of skill but not in the way many put forward and is certinally not fair which is why i personally love it. I also feel it makes it 100x more realistic, if you were desiging a horror dungeon to save guard your tomb, would it not look somthing like this?


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## Bullgrit

terrya said:
			
		

> if you were desiging a horror dungeon to save guard your tomb, would it not look somthing like this?



Actually, no, not at all. There are much better ways for a high-level cleric/magic-user, (like Acererak), to safeguard his tomb. First off, why does he even need to protect his tomb? There's nothing in it he apparently needs, including the skull. Even the treasure is paltry.

The Tomb of Horrors is not a grave protection system, it is a madhouse of sadistic entertainment.

Bullgrit


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## Remus Lupin

Bullgrit said:


> Actually, no, not at all. There are much better ways for a high-level cleric/magic-user, (like Acererak), to safeguard his tomb. First off, why does he even need to protect his tomb? There's nothing in it he apparently needs, including the skull. Even the treasure is paltry.
> 
> The Tomb of Horrors is not a grave protection system, it is a madhouse of sadistic entertainment.
> 
> Bullgrit




This is exactly right, which is why it ultimately doesn't matter if the riddles and clues aren't fair or are misleading, since they are all designed to torment anyone foolish enough to enter the tomb. If it seems arbitrary and capricious, well, that's exactly what you'd expect and evil mad wizard to concoct. Just because it's said that Acererak plays fair doesn't mean he does, as you note.


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## Hussar

Remus Lupin said:


> This is exactly right, which is why it ultimately doesn't matter if the riddles and clues aren't fair or are misleading, since they are all designed to torment anyone foolish enough to enter the tomb. If it seems arbitrary and capricious, well, that's exactly what you'd expect and evil mad wizard to concoct. Just because it's said that Acererak plays fair doesn't mean he does, as you note.




See, but that's the heart of what started all of this.  No one is saying that ToH is a garbage module.  It's not.  It's fantastic and lots of fun and all sorts of things. 

The issue though is that people hyped (as Bullgrit and others quoted very recently) this module as a "thinking man's module".  That the solutions to all or even most of the puzzles in the module were possible to resolve through intelligent play and puzzle solving.

However, that's what's been pretty thoroughly debunked.  There are too many encounters where it's basically flipping a coin - you have no real way of going forward based on anything you could do beforehand.  No amount of "intelligent play" will allow you to resolve some of the puzzles in this module, such as the secret door in the pit trap.  If you fail and don't have the gem, tough, you lose.  Go home.  

That's what this thread has been all about.


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## Remus Lupin

Hussar said:


> See, but that's the heart of what started all of this.  No one is saying that ToH is a garbage module.  It's not.  It's fantastic and lots of fun and all sorts of things.
> 
> The issue though is that people hyped (as Bullgrit and others quoted very recently) this module as a "thinking man's module".  That the solutions to all or even most of the puzzles in the module were possible to resolve through intelligent play and puzzle solving.
> 
> However, that's what's been pretty thoroughly debunked.  There are too many encounters where it's basically flipping a coin - you have no real way of going forward based on anything you could do beforehand.  No amount of "intelligent play" will allow you to resolve some of the puzzles in this module, such as the secret door in the pit trap.  If you fail and don't have the gem, tough, you lose.  Go home.
> 
> That's what this thread has been all about.




I agree entirely. And I think it's Gygax's introduction to the module that really set that reputation up, since if I recall he says as much himself. And truthfully, in his own head, maybe he really thought it was fair. But the fact that it really isn't is only a problem from a metagame perspective. 

Since I have no problem with the characters (as opposed to the players), being tricked into believing that Acererak plays fair, only to find out that he absolutely does not. The characters (as opposed to the players), can be duped into believing that their intelligence and skill will aid them where others have failed, and they'll be wrong. 

And as long as you look at it from that perspective it can be a lot of sado-masochistic fun to play!


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## amerigoV

Hussar said:


> There are too many encounters where it's basically flipping a coin - you have no real way of going forward based on anything you could do beforehand.  No amount of "intelligent play" will allow you to resolve some of the puzzles in this module, such as the secret door in the pit trap.  If you fail and don't have the gem, tough, you lose.  Go home.




Hmmm, one can debate that. While not everyone did this, many groups then had hirelings, retainers, and other hangers-on (a posse!). Making someone else "touch the skull" sounds like "intelligent play" to me! That makes the "coin-flips" less frequent.

(just being a contrairian here - trying to keep the Great Thread going for as long as possible).


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## Bullgrit

amerigoV said:
			
		

> Hmmm, one can debate that. While not everyone did this, many groups then had hirelings, retainers, and other hangers-on (a posse!). Making someone else "touch the skull" sounds like "intelligent play" to me! That makes the "coin-flips" less frequent.



When the hireling or retainer touches the skull, it rises and drains the soul of the 14th-level magic-user, (no save), who ordered the action, from back at the doorway. 

Was that "intelligent play"? The NPC flunky may be sighing in relief, but the Player of the m-u is probably not too happy.

Bullgrit


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## jonesy

Bullgrit said:


> When the hireling or retainer touches the skull, it rises and drains the soul of the 14th-level magic-user, (no save), who ordered the action, from back at the doorway.



Yeah, you'd need an NPC 'flunky' who was a mage, and higher level than the PC's to trump Acereraks hierarchy of soul sucking.

Edit:

It's actually enough just to have the higher level NPC mage in your party, since it's irrelevant who touches the skull. So, if you were an evil party you could just bring a caged cart full of bound and gagged high level mages with you.


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## Hussar

To be fair, they wouldn't even have to be high level mages.  If your group didn't have a PC mage at all, you just bring a squabble of mages in a cage and away you go.


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## Gentlegamer

There's at least two examples of intelligent play in handling the last encounter.

Robilar (Rob Kuntz) fled after scooping up as much treasure as possible rather than fight the demi-lich (not sure if he touched it or not, I would guess not).

The tournament winning group that used the scepter and crown solution.


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## FoxWander

Gentlegamer said:


> There's at least two examples of intelligent play in handling the last encounter.
> 
> Robilar (Rob Kuntz) fled after scooping up as much treasure as possible rather than fight the demi-lich (not sure if he touched it or not, I would guess not).
> 
> The tournament winning group that used the scepter and crown solution.




I'm sure we can do better than those two. I say we list the best and easiest ways to "defeat" Acererack without resorting to the random list of spells he's vulnerable to.  Here's a few off the top of my head...

1) Scoop him into a _Bag of Holding_ (mix-and-match with a _Portable Hole_ as desired).

2) Scoop him into a _Bag of Devouring_

3) Put a large iron pot over him and _Sovereign Glue_ in place.

4) Get a custom helmet with a solid metal visor.  Attached a rod to the back (or a loop to the top- any way you can carry it while guaranteeing it's always facing away from you). Apply _Sovereign Glue_ to the inside and capture the skull from behind like a big metal butterfly net. Now you've got a Demi-Lich-powered Death Ray! (tm) Shake > point at foe > raise visor.

Your turn...


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## Hussar

Gentlegamer said:


> There's at least two examples of intelligent play in handling the last encounter.
> 
> Robilar (Rob Kuntz) fled after scooping up as much treasure as possible rather than fight the demi-lich (not sure if he touched it or not, I would guess not).
> 
> The tournament winning group that used the scepter and crown solution.




How is the first one actually intelligent behavior though?  How would you know that this actually was a monster?  Remember, this is 1976.  You've got a skull full of honking big gems.  You've already "defeated" the ghost that was guarding everything.  What would tell you "Don't touch the skull"?  

Now the scepter/crown thing?  That's cool and creative.  But, remember, you had to sacrifice at least one character (either PC or NPC) to get to that solution.


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## jmucchiello

FoxWander said:


> 4) Get a custom helmet with a solid metal visor.  Attached a rod to the back (or a loop to the top- any way you can carry it while guaranteeing it's always facing away from you). Apply _Sovereign Glue_ to the inside and capture the skull from behind like a big metal butterfly net. Now you've got a Demi-Lich-powered Death Ray! (tm) Shake > point at foe > raise visor.



Too much Belkar for you. Giant In the Playground Games


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## GQuail

I'm sorry to see the end of this thread.  I enjoyed it a great deal and it has been the only thread I've been following on ENWorld for months.  (And before it, I hadn't checked the site out in ages.)

As well as a good, in-depth analysis I also enjoyed it because during it's run I ran my 3.5-era players through a game of 1E and the Tomb of Horrors.  It was interesting comparing the comments about "Smart players will do this/no-one would be fooled by that/etc" with their actual in play reaction, especially as none of them have the 1E mindset but they all knjow a bit of the modules reputation as a deathtrap.

I think this thread definitely makes it hard to argue any real logic in the traps placed in the Tomb.  The dungeon is fun, yes - with the right mindset, watching your group fail and get pulped/poisoned/sex changed can be quite amusing - and you can argue that it makes sense that this mega-evil-mega-genius demilich would trap his dungeon appropriately.  Still, it is hard to find any pattern of any sort and lots of moments in the dungeon do amount to guesses and random chance.  

I mentioned our experience activating the many-armed gargoyle statue and how much time that took - that was enormous fun but is exactly the sort of thing the Tomb is full of.  Will doing this action be positive or negative?  No evidence exists to deduce it beyond just trying and hoping for the best! 

I'm not sure I'd "fix" the Tomb per se, since I still found it enjoyable, but I think it's better to play up the reputation of "challenging module to get out of alive" and ignore the sentence "unless you're a superior player".  Victory in the Tomb of Horrors is as likely to dependant on coin flips as it is on player skill.


----------



## Bullgrit

Stoat said:
			
		

> IMO, anyone advocating the "walkthrough" theory of the Tomb has to account (at least) for the following:



On this "walkthrough" idea:

We have reviewed everything in the ToH, now, and so we have all the answers. We have the ultimate "walkthrough." Question: Knowing everything, is it possible to go through and complete the Tomb without relying on any good luck, (or any non-bad luck)?

I think Stoat does a good job answering this question in this post: http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...ilers-spoilers-everywhere-16.html#post5763064

So it seems the answer to my question is, No, even knowing all the correct things to do and avoid, there is no way to get through the Tomb with no reliance on some luck.

What is the bare minimum party (number of characters, classes needed, levels, etc.) that can complete the Tomb? It seems that thieves and fighters aren't necessarily required, but leveled magic-users and clerics may be. The old legend about a novice thief getting through it seems bogus, unless that thief got extremely lucky with saves and used scrolls to cast certain spells. I mean, to get the second key, you have to make a spell save, and to get past the area 17? secret door requires _detect magic_, and either _dispel magic_ or _remove curse_ -- and this is just a couple situations off the top of my head, without going back and looking for others.

And something more: Say the DM is of the antagonistic bent, and wants to interpret the vague stuff in the most bastard way, (but a legitimate, rules-legal way), can he stop even Players who have read and memorized the module?

Bullgrit


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## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> Question: Knowing everything, is it possible to go through and complete the Tomb without relying on any good luck, (or any non-bad luck)?
> <snip>
> What is the bare minimum party (number of characters, classes needed, levels, etc.) that can complete the Tomb?



I think it's entirely possible to get through the Tomb without relying on luck. A single magic-user who can cast 3rd level spells (although 5th level spells makes it even easier) could get through unscathed. In fact, of the pregens in the module #10 is both the correct classes/levels and ideally equipped for the task. He (or she) can cast 3rd level spells as both a cleric and a magic-user- so the requisite _detect/dispel magic_ is covered as well as magical healing, food, and water creation to take as long as needed. Plus he's got the _Boots of Levitation_ which bypass 90% of the traps.

For the most part you simply follow Stoat's excellent guide, so I'll just cover the tricky parts… 

The secret door to area 14, the Chapel - Cast _Knock_.  Who cares how hard it is to find.  1) it's quite logical to expect one to be there and 2) we're already assuming an all-knowing perspective.
The secret door at area 17 - As stated, any cleric/m-u level 5+ can cast the necessary spells- pregen #10 is both.
The First Key - _Unseen Servant_ can get the first part and any number of spells can kill the ochre jelly to get the second part. 
Area 21, The Agitated Chamber - _Boots of levitation_ FTW!  Since there's no need to touch the floor anywhere in the Tomb, why should this room be any different.
Area 23, The False/True door - Again, knowing the doors are there, cast _Knock_ to open them both.  Go down the stairs and skip the juggernaut completely.
Area 28, The Wonderous Foyer - Avoid dealing with the _Antipathy_ spell on the Second Key completely by picking it via _Unseen Servant_.  Alternatively, _Animate Dead_ is only a 3rd level cleric spell.  Have an undead servant pick up and carry the key.  Just bring enough to deal with a few failed saves, eventually one of them will get lucky.
Area 29, The Valves of Mithral - To figure out the scepter/key problem again, pick a servant type, either _unseen_ or undead. Either way, the Valves get open with no risk to you. 
Area 30, The False Treasure Room - The problem here is moving that darn statue.  Luckily there's an efreet available.  Or you can simply bring a block-and-tackle with enough rope to multiply the character's own strength (remember- this is one strong half-elf at an 18/62!) sufficiently.
Area 33,  The Crypt! - Honestly, this character has no real chance of "defeating" the lich aside from the crown and scepter trick. But he can still simply loot everything in sight while ignoring the fake ghost and the skull.
But there you go- a one-character walkthough that shouldn't result in a single lost hit point!


----------



## Freakohollik

A lot of posters are claiming that this is a "bomb squad" module and not a "thinking person's" module. I don't see these things as mutually exclusive and it seems that Gygax didn't either. I would say that most of the bomb squad elements are what makes this a thinking person's module.

I feel that a lot of posters think that the module should have a solution to all the problems written into the module. Instead, solutions are often left out and the task is placed soley on the party to figure out what to do. And if even if you do die, you can just get resurrected.


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## Hussar

Frekaohollik - the problem is though, it's billed as "thinking man's" module.  Infinite monkeys typing is not a thinking man solution, it's inelegant and brute force.  Some of the solutions really do come down to flipping a coin - there is no possible way to deduce the right course of action without trial and error.

I guess that's where I get off the train.  If I have to simply guess the right answer, that's not thinking, that's just grunt work.


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## Gentlegamer

Systematic use of trial and error *is* intelligent play.


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## MarkB

Gentlegamer said:


> Systematic use of trial and error *is* intelligent play.




Only if the "error" part doesn't kill you.


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## jonesy

Gentlegamer said:


> Systematic use of trial and error *is* intelligent play.



I'd argue that it is a parallel issue here, and not directly causal.

Trial and error gives you a collection of experience and guidelines.

The right collection makes you intelligent.

The wrong collection just makes you likely to succumb to a dumb error.

The Tomb requires one not to stagnate to a particular style, i.e. to do what experience has shown as working in the earlier rooms, because the Tomb switches styles on you. What worked before may kill you on the next hurdle. Sometimes you've got to be all touchy feely all over the place, other times keep your fingers off or you'll lose them. So every single location requires its own set of trial and error.

Unless you're playing as Bigby. 

Or doing a massive overuse of Augury.

I pity the DM who tries to run the module for a group that actually does all of the proper precautions. Oh, the time it'll take to get through one room.


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## Freakohollik

Hussar said:


> Frekaohollik - the problem is though, it's billed as "thinking man's" module.  Infinite monkeys typing is not a thinking man solution, it's inelegant and brute force.  Some of the solutions really do come down to flipping a coin - there is no possible way to deduce the right course of action without trial and error.
> 
> I guess that's where I get off the train.  If I have to simply guess the right answer, that's not thinking, that's just grunt work.




Yeah a lot of it is trial and error. That's the key. Find ways to try things without getting yourself killed.


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## Maggan

*Trial and terror*

It's trial and error that will take me as a player through the Tomb. The problem for me is the meta aspect of that. To apply the experience from one run where my PC was killed, I have to rely on knowledge that I as a player has gathered, but which really shouldn't be available to my PC.

And if I willfully disregard that meta knowledge, and go into the Tomb expecting to solve it, my PC will in all probability die. That makes the Tomb a module not suited for my tastes.

Still is a classic module, of course.

/M


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## Bullgrit

Freakohollik said:
			
		

> A lot of posters are claiming that this is a "bomb squad" module and not a "thinking person's" module. I don't see these things as mutually exclusive and it seems that Gygax didn't either. I would say that most of the bomb squad elements are what makes this a thinking person's module.
> 
> I feel that a lot of posters think that the module should have a solution to all the problems written into the module. Instead, solutions are often left out and the task is placed soley on the party to figure out what to do. And if even if you do die, you can just get resurrected.



Yes, meticulous bomb squad-style play is a sort of thinking play. But as I've mentioned several times through this thread, that is not the style of play many of ToH fans portray it as.

This is not a matter of some of us wanting ToH to be different than it is, it's a matter of so many ToH fans telling us it is different than it is.

For instance, read this description of ToH:







> First, TOH is primarily a test of player ability and not of character ability. There is almost no combat in TOH. There are very few saving throws in TOH. There are numerous traps that by pass hit points completely. Until the very final encounter, which seems by intention to be one that the wiser player avoids, what is on your character sheet is almost irrelevant in determining whether you succeed in the module.
> 
> Secondly, this amounts to a spoiler of some sort, but Tomb of Horrors is fair. Acererak plays fair. He's so uncannily and unusually fair given his apparant goal (killing adventurers) that it had to be lamp shaded and explained in the game universe in 'Return to the Tomb of Horrors'. He's not using reverse psychology on the players to force them into guessing what's behind door #2. If you must guess whether to go left or right, then success depends largely on luck. Acererak follows a pattern and sticks to it, so that with care you really don't have to guess after you successfully enter the tomb. If success depends on hitting the target AC or making a saving throw or doing enough damage when rolling damage, then success is at least in part luck and even a party which makes the correct choices might still be defeated in the module. Tomb of Horrors is almost entirely singular in being a killer dungeon where this is not true. If you make the right choices, you can 'beat the dungeon' with practically a party of 1st levels. Of course, with 1st level characters you'd practically have to be perfect in your play, to the extent that I think no one could do it without having first read the text, but really to 'beat the dungeon' requires you to make no big mistakes in play anyway and so even 10th level characters only gain the ability to survive minor mistakes.
> 
> This is the main reason why Tomb of Horrors has acquired such a reputation. It really is entirely different from everything else. S2 'White Plume Mountain' is a killer dungeon, but its often a killer dungeon in the obvious sense of having very dangerous monsters. The puzzles are still there, but environment is reduced to being only an equal threat and challenge. A first level party even making all the right decisions still has no chance of defeating the module, because so many dangerous monsters stand in the way. By something like S4: 'Caverns of Tsojcanth' its almost entirely the dangerous monsters and the ability to make saving throws and use your characters abilities effectively that determines success. It's not remotely the same sort of dungeon.



This post, here on ENWorld, received a bunch of xp awards with comments like, "Great analysis," "Exactly right," "Very good explanation."

So many people think/believe/espouse the above as truth about ToH. But as we've seen in this thread, most of it is completely and demonstrably false.

Now, I'm not calling out the particular poster who said all the above, nor the people who gave the post xp. It is just one of many examples around here, (and from outside ENWorld), but it is a recent and extensive example, and it is from the thread that prompted Stoat to start this particular discussion.



> I feel that a lot of posters think that the module should have a solution to all the problems written into the module.



No, it's that we have always been told that the module gives a solution to all the problems. But it doesn't. And we're left wondering why this has been misrepresented to us.

Again, this is not all to say that ToH isn't, or doesn't deserve to be, a legendary classic D&D module. It's just very odd that ToH's biggest fans describe it as something very different than what it actually is. The way the ToH's fans describe it, I would think I'd love it. I'd love to run/play a module with the style and features it is said to have. But when you read/play the actual module as written, it's very disappointing to see that it is not at all like how it is described.

It's like hearing that a particular movie is a deep mystery story, but when you watch it you see it's actually a thriller horror flick. When you complain that it's a horror flick, someone else comes back with, "What did you want? A mystery story?" Well, yeah, that's what I was told it would be.

Bullgrit


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## FoxWander

Bullgrit said:


> For instance, read this description of ToH:This post, here on ENWorld, received a bunch of xp awards with comments like, "Great analysis," "Exactly right," "Very good explanation."
> 
> So many people think/believe/espouse the above as truth about ToH. But as we've seen in this thread, most of it is completely and demonstrably false.
> 
> Now, I'm not calling out the particular poster who said all the above, nor the people who gave the post xp. It is just one of many examples around here, (and from outside ENWorld), but it is a recent and extensive example, and it is from the thread that prompted Stoat to start this particular discussion.



Wow, the people who agreed with that post must have played a different Tomb of Horrors than I did because they couldn't be more wro... Oh yeah, I'm the guy quoted as "Exactly right," up there.   But that does go to prove the point I made a few pages ago (here).  Nostalgia and misremembering a lot (apparently QUITE a lot) of the details accounts for much of that, as we've learned here, mistaken idea of what the Tomb is.  However, in keeping with the post I linked to above, I will say that I still stand by my XP comment to that other post in regards to how the Tomb felt (as far as how I remembered it at the time)- unfortunately that feeling does mesh with the actual analysis and details of the Tomb.


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## Remus Lupin

I wonder if part of the issue is the difference between how it is experienced as a player vs. how it is experienced as a DM. If you're a player, and you've got a decent DM, and you've never actually read the module yourself, you may walk away thinking that the whole thing was "fair," because it was never apparent to you just how arbitrary it all was.


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## Swedish Chef

Remus Lupin said:


> I wonder if part of the issue is the difference between how it is experienced as a player vs. how it is experienced as a DM. If you're a player, and you've got a decent DM, and you've never actually read the module yourself, you may walk away thinking that the whole thing was "fair," because it was never apparent to you just how arbitrary it all was.




I think this sums it up completely. I've followed the thread right from the start. I ran the ToH for my 3ed group a few years ago and this is exactly how it played out. I read and re-read the module several times. I made notes of things that I felt needed to be changed as they weren't clear to me, so they'd be even less clear for the players. I decided what sort of searches would reveal what secrets/clues/traps in a given area. I was the one that helped make the module "fair" for the players. Whether I succeeded in that is up to my players to tell you, but I believe so, as no one complained about it at the end. 

I think the majority of "classic" modules are viewed that way for two reasons. 1) There was a shared continuity at the time. There weren't many published modules available, so pretty much everyone played several of them at some point in time before DMs started scripting their own and 2) many DMs at the time relied more on their own judgement for written modules as many of them had such flaws in their descriptive text.

I'm not putting down today's modules. I enjoy running many of them, as it is just easier, especially with all the new rules. But a relatively simpler game back then resulted in relatively simpler modules which, conversely, required DMs to invest more creative thinking into running them. And I think that creative thinking is what makes the difference.


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## Freakohollik

Bullgrit said:


> Yes, meticulous bomb squad-style play is a sort of thinking play. But as I've mentioned several times through this thread, that is not the style of play many of ToH fans portray it as.
> 
> This is not a matter of some of us wanting ToH to be different than it is, it's a matter of so many ToH fans telling us it is different than it is.
> 
> For instance, read this description of ToH:This post, here on ENWorld, received a bunch of xp awards with comments like, "Great analysis," "Exactly right," "Very good explanation."
> 
> So many people think/believe/espouse the above as truth about ToH. But as we've seen in this thread, most of it is completely and demonstrably false.
> 
> Now, I'm not calling out the particular poster who said all the above, nor the people who gave the post xp. It is just one of many examples around here, (and from outside ENWorld), but it is a recent and extensive example, and it is from the thread that prompted Stoat to start this particular discussion.
> 
> No, it's that we have always been told that the module gives a solution to all the problems. But it doesn't. And we're left wondering why this has been misrepresented to us.
> 
> Again, this is not all to say that ToH isn't, or doesn't deserve to be, a legendary classic D&D module. It's just very odd that ToH's biggest fans describe it as something very different than what it actually is. The way the ToH's fans describe it, I would think I'd love it. I'd love to run/play a module with the style and features it is said to have. But when you read/play the actual module as written, it's very disappointing to see that it is not at all like how it is described.
> 
> It's like hearing that a particular movie is a deep mystery story, but when you watch it you see it's actually a thriller horror flick. When you complain that it's a horror flick, someone else comes back with, "What did you want? A mystery story?" Well, yeah, that's what I was told it would be.
> 
> Bullgrit




Fair enough. I agree with the majority of the quote you posted, but I can see how such descriptions would give the wrong impression of the module. The "Acererak follows a pattern and sticks to it, so that with care you really don't have to guess after you successfully enter the tomb." line is outwright wrong and is the most misleading part.


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## BoxingtonPAS

Freakohollik said:


> Fair enough. I agree with the majority of the quote you posted, but I can see how such descriptions would give the wrong impression of the module. The "Acererak follows a pattern and sticks to it, so that with care you really don't have to guess after you successfully enter the tomb." line is outright wrong and is the most misleading part.



I have enjoyed this thread. Have not played in years but this has gotten me to pick up the ole dice again. Thank you all.


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## Hussar

Run read.  Kind of apropos considering the hoopla over in the Exploration Pillar thread.


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