# PHBII Classes Confirmed



## Shroomy (Nov 16, 2008)

A poster over on RPG.net reported that the WotC 2009 Summer Catalog reveals that _Divine Powers_ will cover Clerics, Paladins, Avengers, and Invokers, so it looks like that the DDI Character Generator screenshots were accurate.  That means that PHBII will feature the Bard, Barbarian, Druid, Shaman (has this one actually been confirmed), Warden, Sorcerer, Avenger, and Invoker.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Nov 16, 2008)

I still hope the druid is more "environment controller" than "shapeshifting warrior," but it seems less likely now...


----------



## Shroomy (Nov 16, 2008)

Now that we've got the races and classes, the roles will probably start to trickle out.  I expect PHBII to get extensive coverage via the DDI (even more so than they've already revealed), given that its probably WoTC's biggest release of Q1 2009 and the initial proving ground for their yearly strategy.  I'm sure we'll know more about the druid soon.


----------



## Remathilis (Nov 16, 2008)

Guess...

Avenger: Divine Striker all about punishing his foes. 
Barbarian: Primal Striker.
Bard: Arcane Leader
Druid: Primal Controller who uses a lot of rain/lightning/fire powers and a few "turn into a bear" powers.
Invoker: Divine Controller who uses divine power and celestial "summons" to control the battlefield.
Shaman: Primal Leader. Heavy on buffs and giving allies animal powers like claws ans such.
Sorcerer: Arcane Controller: More powerful spells than a wizard, less versatility. 
Warden: Primal Defender who is closer to an actual shapechanger and lots of "get off my lawn" powers.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Nov 16, 2008)

Any idea what the Warden and Avenger are... I mean at all? Are they based on some 3E stuff I don't know about or....?

EDIT: ninja'd.... and the Invoker as well...seems like a summoner to me :"Invoke: 4.  To summon with incantations; conjure."


----------



## Shroomy (Nov 16, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> Any idea what the Warden and Avenger are... I mean at all? Are they based on some 3E stuff I don't know about or....?
> 
> EDIT: ninja'd.... and the Invoker as well...seems like a summoner to me :"Invoke: 4.  To summon with incantations; conjure."




Nope, other than the names and power sources, not much is known about those classes.  Anything right now is speculative.


----------



## Hawke (Nov 16, 2008)

Any speculation as to which preview we're going to see next? They seem to be eager to show these off... my guess is they'll preview in the Bard-preview format all but two of them. Seems like how they handled the 4E pre-release in general. If I had to guess, (Sorcerer or Druid) and (Avenger or Invoker) will be the two they leave out to keep it round but keep it exciting. Leave one old class and one brand new one out of the mix to push sales. 

I'm pretty excited about this!


----------



## CleverNickName (Nov 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> A poster over on RPG.net reported that the WotC 2009 Summer Catalog reveals that _Divine Powers_ will cover Clerics, Paladins, Avengers, and Invokers, so it looks like that the DDI Character Generator screenshots were accurate.  That means that PHBII will feature the Bard, Barbarian, Druid, Shaman (has this one actually been confirmed), Warden, Sorcerer, Avenger, and Invoker.



PHB2 could be the next "Masters of the Wild."  All of these classes seem to have a definite outdoorsy, wilderness tone to their names.

Bard: nomadic rogues, wandering storytellers
Barbarian: savage headhunters, tribal warchiefs
Druid: the iconic nature-bunny
Shaman: primitive spellcaster, or animal shaper
Warden: protectors of the forest
Sorcerers: "wild" magic-users
Avengers: combat druids maybe?
Invoker: summoner of spirit animals, perhaps?

I'm interested in seeing the Sorcerer, Shaman, Invoker, and Warlock classes...particularly, how they make each of them distinct and interesting.  Because in my mind's eye, they bleed together into one single stereotype.


----------



## Cadfan (Nov 16, 2008)

I hope the Avenger has some serious Inquisitor theme.  I want to be able to play these guys.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Nov 16, 2008)

It is possible...

...and it could be kind of cool if...

Invokers are the "summoner" class that's been absent from the Core.

Fiendish dire weasels are back baby!


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Nov 16, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I still hope the druid is more "environment controller" than "shapeshifting warrior," but it seems less likely now...




Why?  I've felt extremely confident that druid is going to be almost no "I turn into a bear" since I heard of the Warden.  It just sounds right.


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Nov 16, 2008)

Avengers?  4E is too comic booky!  What's next?  Here's my 4th level Teen Titan?


----------



## Kunimatyu (Nov 16, 2008)

Avenger has to be the renamed Inquisitor. Sounds fun!


----------



## firesnakearies (Nov 16, 2008)

Remathilis said:


> Guess...
> 
> Avenger: Divine Striker all about punishing his foes.
> Barbarian: Primal Striker.
> ...





These sound cool.  I like this forecast.


----------



## questing gm (Nov 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> A poster over on RPG.net reported that the WotC 2009 Summer Catalog reveals that _Divine Powers_ will cover Clerics, Paladins, Avengers, and Invokers, so it looks like that the DDI Character Generator screenshots were accurate.  That means that PHBII will feature the Bard, Barbarian, Druid, Shaman (has this one actually been confirmed), Warden, Sorcerer, Avenger, and Invoker.




Could give a link to the actual post for this?


----------



## Imp (Nov 16, 2008)

I've been for splitting up the druid powers and the wizard powers into multiple classes since I heard 4th edition was coming out; it'd be pretty cool if they actually did it.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 16, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> PHB2 could be the next "Masters of the Wild."  All of these classes seem to have a definite outdoorsy, wilderness tone to their names.
> 
> Bard: nomadic rogues, wandering storytellers
> Barbarian: savage headhunters, tribal warchiefs
> ...



CleverPost!

If there is indeed a stronger wilderness/outdoor focus, I wonder if this will also be reflected in the adventures that will come out around that time, be it in dungeon or otherwise?


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 16, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> PHB2 could be the next "Masters of the Wild."  All of these classes seem to have a definite outdoorsy, wilderness tone to their names.
> 
> Bard: nomadic rogues, wandering storytellers
> Barbarian: savage headhunters, tribal warchiefs
> ...



Well duh, half the classes are Primal.


----------



## Fifth Element (Nov 16, 2008)

To the OP: This is still speculation. Speculation with quite a bit of support, but "PHBII Classes Confirmed" is not accurate.


----------



## Jack99 (Nov 16, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Fiendish dire weasels are back baby!




*twitch*


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 16, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> To the OP: This is still speculation. Speculation with quite a bit of support, but "PHBII Classes Confirmed" is not accurate.



Actually, I think the only truly speculative part of it is whether or not this scoop is accurate. If it is, there'll soon be confirmation rolling in from others with access to the catalogue.


----------



## Fifth Element (Nov 16, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Actually, I think the only truly speculative part of it is whether or not this scoop is accurate. If it is, there'll soon be confirmation rolling in from others with access to the catalogue.



No, the scoop is what classes are covered in Divine Power. The speculation is that this information confirms that the Character Generator screenshots reveal which classes are in PHBII. It might very well be the case, but we have no direct evidence, such as the catalogue listing which classes are in PHBII.


----------



## (un)reason (Nov 16, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> Any idea what the Warden and Avenger are... I mean at all? Are they based on some 3E stuff I don't know about or....?



Avengers were originaly the chaotic paladin equivilent from the BD&D companion set. Obviously, with alignment restrictions for classes removed, they'll have to differentiate it more than just making them paladin's obnoxious kid brothers. Still, I suppose it's more evidence that the designers like BECMI, and draw on it where possible. 

There have been several kits and prestige classes which had warden/guardian as their general theme, so still not clear what they're shooting for there. My hope is that they'll bring back the nature bond/spellcasting stuff that was cut out from rangers in 4e.


----------



## Rechan (Nov 16, 2008)

Yes, the Shaman is confirmed (infact confirmed as the Primal Leader).

Also, we've heard stuff from various podcasts (The tome, specifically) that there would be a Divine Controller, and he'd be doing more "Flame-Strikey" stuff. (Invoke and Evoke aren't that far off. And Invoking the name of something or other sounds fairly smitey/bringing down a god's wrath, etc). 

We were told there would be 3 brand new classes, not done before. I'm pretty sure that's going to be the Warden/Avenger/Invoker. (Although I didn't think we've seen a Shaman before, aside from the spirit shaman...).


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 16, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> No, the scoop is what classes are covered in Divine Power. The speculation is that this information confirms that the Character Generator screenshots reveal which classes are in PHBII. It might very well be the case, but we have no direct evidence, such as the catalogue listing which classes are in PHBII.



Semantically speaking, you're correct, Fifth; this scoop *doesn't* directly confirm the PH2 classes. Indirectly, I think it does, but then, I suppose that doesn't really mean "confirmed", does it?

Okay, you're right. No hard feelings?


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 16, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Yes, the Shaman is confirmed (infact confirmed as the Primal Leader).



Nope, Shaman was only confirmed as a Leader; the Primal part was just implied, IIRC. (Apparently I need to be more careful about how I use the word "confirmed".)



			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> Also, we've heard stuff from various podcasts (The tome, specifically) that there would be a Divine Controller, and he'd be doing more "Flame-Strikey" stuff. (Invoke and Evoke aren't that far off. And Invoking the name of something or other sounds fairly smitey/bringing down a god's wrath, etc).



You're right. Don't forget to mention how "Invoker" is now confirmed to be a Divine class and "Evocations" are confirmed to be what Primal powers are called.



			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> We were told there would be 3 brand new classes, not done before. I'm pretty sure that's going to be the Warden/Avenger/Invoker. (Although I didn't think we've seen a Shaman before, aside from the spirit shaman...).



I think that at this point, the distinction is pretty fine between "What we've seen before" and "What we haven't", especially given the terminology used across a glut of kits and Prestige Classes throughout the previous editions. Don't forget, they also initially said one of the class names would begin with a "T"; presumably this has been replaced with "A".


----------



## Fifth Element (Nov 16, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Semantically speaking, you're correct, Fifth; this scoop *doesn't* directly confirm the PH2 classes. Indirectly, I think it does, but then, I suppose that doesn't really mean "confirmed", does it?



I agree that it provides more support for the previously-existing speculation as to what classes are in the PHBII. But when I came to the thread, I expected something that actually confirmed it, something from WotC itself, because the thread title claimed it was confirmed.


----------



## Marshall (Nov 16, 2008)

CleverNickName said:


> I'm interested in seeing the Sorcerer, Shaman, Invoker, and Warlock classes...particularly, how they make each of them distinct and interesting. .




Great. As if 4e needed another WAR named class. Can we build an entire party of WARxxxx classes now?


----------



## Protagonist (Nov 16, 2008)

Marshall said:


> Great. As if 4e needed another WAR named class. Can we build an entire party of WARxxxx classes now?





Warden - Defender (?)
Warlord - Leader
Warlock - Striker

We still need a controller.


----------



## aurance (Nov 16, 2008)

Protagonist said:


> Warden - Defender (?)
> Warlord - Leader
> Warlock - Striker
> 
> We still need a controller.




Warhol - Controller


----------



## Sir Brennen (Nov 16, 2008)

Rechan said:


> We were told there would be 3 brand new classes, not done before. I'm pretty sure that's going to be the Warden/Avenger/Invoker. (Although I didn't think we've seen a Shaman before, aside from the spirit shaman...).



If "not done before" means in any edition, then it's not the Shaman, as I have a 2nd edition TSR sourcebook for the class.


----------



## Remathilis (Nov 16, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Yes, the Shaman is confirmed (infact confirmed as the Primal Leader).
> 
> Also, we've heard stuff from various podcasts (The tome, specifically) that there would be a Divine Controller, and he'd be doing more "Flame-Strikey" stuff. (Invoke and Evoke aren't that far off. And Invoking the name of something or other sounds fairly smitey/bringing down a god's wrath, etc).
> 
> We were told there would be 3 brand new classes, not done before. I'm pretty sure that's going to be the Warden/Avenger/Invoker. (Although I didn't think we've seen a Shaman before, aside from the spirit shaman...).




There was also an avenger class in 2e; In Domains of Dread they introduced four new classes (avenger, gypsy, arcanist, anchorite) but the avenger was pretty much a fighter with higher ability score requirements, a chaotic alignment, and bonuses for having a "grudge" against a particular foe (such as the six-fingered man who killed your father) and foes similar to him (other six fingered men?).

Fun, but pretty much a fighter kit elevated to full-class status.


----------



## Lizard (Nov 16, 2008)

Foo. What happened to "I Is For Illusionist"?


----------



## Jack99 (Nov 16, 2008)

Lizard said:


> Foo. What happened to "I Is For Illusionist"?




If you haven't already, may I recommend at least checking out the Advanced Player's Guide and the Spellbinder. It might not be able to have the official name, but it looks great.


----------



## Shroomy (Nov 16, 2008)

I thought that rumor had that the Illusionist class would be a Shadow power source class.


----------



## Shroomy (Nov 16, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> I agree that it provides more support for the previously-existing speculation as to what classes are in the PHBII. But when I came to the thread, I expected something that actually confirmed it, something from WotC itself, because the thread title claimed it was confirmed.




Sorry, I wasn't trying to be misleading, but I thought that their appearance in the Summer Catalog and in the DDI Generator was a clincher.  I don't see any other books were a new class would come from, at least those two new classes.


----------



## Fifth Element (Nov 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Sorry, I wasn't trying to be misleading, but I thought that their appearance in the Summer Catalog and in the DDI Generator was a clincher.  I don't see any other books were a new class would come from, at least those two new classes.



The point is, we can't be sure the classes in the Generator screenshots actually made it into the books. Who knows what could have changed since then.


----------



## M.L. Martin (Nov 17, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> The point is, we can't be sure the classes in the Generator screenshots actually made it into the books. Who knows what could have changed since then.




   Given that a) support for said classes was going to be in _Divine Power_ as of the time the Summer 2009 catalog went to press,
   b) we know that new divine classes are going to be introduced in PH2, 
   c) there is no other product that will introduce new divine classes (the same catalog says that the Eberron Player's Guide will introduce _one_ new class, the artificer)

   I'd say that it would require some last-minute changes for these two _not_ to be considered 'confirmed'.

  Now, the shaman I'd only put at 'highly probable' at this point.


----------



## crash_beedo (Nov 17, 2008)

What about the thread on Mearls' WOTC blog where he spoils the first initials of the PHB2 classes like so...

B - Barbarian - Primal Defender
B - Bard - Arcane Leader
D - Druid - Primal Striker
I - ?
S - Sorcerer - Arcane Controller
S - Shaman
T - ?
W - Warden

I thought for sure the T would be Theurge (divine controller) - and we've seen plenty of Theurge powers in the H-series of modules - especially amongst the Duergar.  I suppose Theurge could have been renamed to something else.

"I" could be the Invoker.

Remember that one of the classes in Divine Power could slip in via the Eberron Player's Guide, too (ala Sword Mage).


----------



## Shroomy (Nov 17, 2008)

crash_beedo said:


> What about the thread on Mearls' WOTC blog where he spoils the first initials of the PHB2 classes like so...
> 
> B - Barbarian - Primal Defender
> B - Bard - Arcane Leader
> ...




I think that the "T" class was renamed.  As for Eberron, we'll be seeing the Artificer for sure, but my gut says no new divine classes there.


----------



## Rechan (Nov 17, 2008)

crash_beedo said:


> What about the thread on Mearls' WOTC blog where he spoils the first initials of the PHB2 classes like so...
> 
> B - Barbarian - Primal Defender



Eh? We have the playtest for the barbarian. He's a striker.



> Remember that one of the classes in Divine Power could slip in via the Eberron Player's Guide, too (ala Sword Mage).



EPG will have the Artificer in it. I mean, the artificer is Eberron's. Whether it gets another class or not, depends.

I would like to see a Silver Flame pact for warlocks.


----------



## crash_beedo (Nov 17, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Eh? We have the playtest for the barbarian. He's a striker.




DOH!  My bad, I pasted from someone's post and clearly missed that.  Yep, Warden is likely the Primal Defender.

I'm guessing if Invoker / Avenger are the two newbies, we'll see Theurge powers in the Invoker class (assuming Divine Controller) and Avenger will be an as yet unseen Divine Striker.


----------



## Andor (Nov 17, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> You're right. Don't forget to mention how "Invoker" is now confirmed to be a Divine class and "Evocations" are confirmed to be what Primal powers are called.




So soon we will have:
Invokers - Divine summoners calling up rosy bottomed cherubs.
Evokers - Arcane controllers who vaporize minions. Class feature Auto hitting magic missile.
Revokers - Bureaucratic controllers who deny enemies permisson to use their powers.
Provokers - Martial Defenders who taunt enemies into attacking them. Class feature 'Your mamma'.


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 17, 2008)

Matthew L. Martin said:


> Given that a) support for said classes was going to be in _Divine Power_ as of the time the Summer 2009 catalog went to press,
> b) we know that new divine classes are going to be introduced in PH2,
> c) there is no other product that will introduce new divine classes (the same catalog says that the Eberron Player's Guide will introduce _one_ new class, the artificer)
> 
> ...



I think the only reason to think of the Shaman as anything but _at least as confirmed_ as you feel Avenger and Invoker are is that we haven't heard anything about it for a while now. That said, I also think they'll all be there.



Rechan said:


> ...
> 
> EPG will have the Artificer in it. I mean, the artificer is Eberron's. Whether it gets another class or not, depends.
> 
> I would like to see a Silver Flame pact for warlocks.



Why should Warlocks get a new build in every book? There ought to be a Silver Flame-themed Paragon Path for Warlocks, but a pact would be unnecessary, I think.

Now, a longbow-themed Silver Flame Cleric or Invoker build... that would rock!


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 17, 2008)

Andor said:


> Evokers - Arcane controllers who vaporize minions. ...



You have just described my party's current Wizard.


----------



## Rechan (Nov 17, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> Why should Warlocks get a new build in every book?



Oh, not every book. I even think the Darkness pact warlock was unnecessary. It's just that a Silver Flame warlock has been a fan favorite (been created several times over on the WotC boards), and it's a nice "Good" Warlock compared to the others. 

Don't disagree about an Invoker method.


----------



## CleverNickName (Nov 18, 2008)

Marshall said:


> Great. As if 4e needed another WAR named class. Can we build an entire party of WARxxxx classes now?



Nope...not yet.  You will have to wait for the PHBIII, which is rumored to contain the following classes:

Warder
Warner
Warbler
Wardancer
Warrant Officer
Warmonger
Warrantor
Warrener
Warehouseman
War Bride
War Criminal
War Widow
Ward-heeler

It's only a rumor...but remember, you heard it here first.  

Frankly, I'm excited at the prospect of playing a heroic rabbit-farmer...


----------



## Mercurius (Nov 18, 2008)

Maybe Theurge was renamed Invoker, and I-as-Inquisitor was renamed (the more diplomatic) Avenger. Thus an Avenger = angry and extra-zealous paladin.

Personally I think these look great.


----------



## Henry (Nov 18, 2008)

I just find it amusing that, after all the "4E Avenger" namecalling over on the WotC Forums, that there will now be, in fact, 4E Avengers.


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 18, 2008)

Mercurius said:


> Maybe Theurge was renamed Invoker, and I-as-Inquisitor was renamed (the more diplomatic) Avenger. Thus an Avenger = angry and extra-zealous paladin.
> 
> Personally I think these look great.



I think the big question on everybody's mind is, "What the hell is the 'Avenger', exactly? What will this class do that other classes don't?" We're all really curious; I know I am, because I'm genuinely not sure what it's about.

Is it a Paladin-lite? Is it a Rogue who prays before assassinating someone? Is it a "holy warlock"-type character, blasting foes with superpowered godlasers? "Divine" and "Striker" almost seem  like an unnatural combination at times.

It's not that I doubt WotC can do it, I just find myself really unsure about what exactly the Avenger must does.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> I just find it amusing that, after all the "4E Avenger" namecalling over on the WotC Forums, that there will now be, in fact, 4E Avengers.



lol When you put it like that, Henry, it makes it hard for me not to like it!  ...Perhaps that was the inspiration?


----------



## bagger245 (Nov 18, 2008)

```
Martial   Divine          Arcane         Primal
Defender        Fighter   Paladin        Swordmage   Warden
 
Controller          Invoker/       Wizard         Druid
                            Theurge(?)    Sorceror 
 
Striker         Rogue   Avenger        Warlock       Barbarian
                  Ranger
 
Leader         Warlord  Cleric          Bard             Shaman
                                               Artificier
```
 
I came up with this matrix, can someone help me clean it up?
Any news on a martial controller?


----------



## Elphilm (Nov 18, 2008)

If we leave out setting specific classes such as the Artificer and the Swordmage, WotC appears to be going for four classes per each power source. If we put the classes in PHB1 and PHB2 together, it seems safe to assume that we get the following matrix:


```
Arcane     Divine     Martial    Primal

Controller   Wizard,    Invoker    -          Druid
             Sorcerer
Defender     -          Paladin    Fighter    Warden
Leader       Bard       Cleric     Warlord    Shaman
Striker      Warlock    Avenger    Ranger,    Barbarian
                                   Rogue
```


----------



## Rechan (Nov 18, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> I think the big question on everybody's mind is, "What the hell is the 'Avenger', exactly? What will this class do that other classes don't?" We're all really curious; I know I am, because I'm genuinely not sure what it's about.
> 
> Is it a Paladin-lite? Is it a Rogue who prays before assassinating someone? Is it a "holy warlock"-type character, blasting foes with superpowered godlasers? "Divine" and "Striker" almost seem  like an unnatural combination at times.




Many people have said the Monk would make a fine Divine Striker. Hell, Ari made the monk a divine striker in the Advanced Player's Guide. Divine is purely the explanation of the power source, and striker merely means "Mobile + Doing lots of damage + in trouble when alone against several enemies". 

Now that I think about "Striker" and "Divine", I find myself imagining an Avenging Angel. An instrument of judgment, empowered with the wrath of their god to bring pain and punishment upon those that have wronged. One whom will track down the blasphemous offender to the ends of the Planes, and allowing nothing to get in its way.

Or, if you prefer: David slew Goliath with one shot. 

Where the Paladin protects, or he single-handedly steps into a throng of an evil army, cutting a swath through it, or single-handedly battles a tide of onrushing demons, the Avenger goes straight to the heart of the matter, his holy sword piercing the source of the evil itself, such as the sorcerer who brought the Demons. 

As I think about it, one method it could have is playing off doing damage to foes who have hurt party members. Similar to how the Paladin's mark damages foes who attacks the non-paladin, the Striker could do extra damage to those who have harmed their allies. Getting bonuses to damage when their allies are bloodied, and so on.


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 18, 2008)

Elphilm said:


> If we leave out setting specific classes such as the Artificer and the Swordmage, WotC appears to be going for four classes per each power source. If we put the classes in PHB1 and PHB2 together, it seems safe to assume that we get the following matrix:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



I like your matrix, but I don't understand why you'd leave out Artificer and Swordmage. If seen this argument before, and it doesn't make sense to me.

What's setting specific about the Swordmage, other than that it appears in the FRPG? You could be playing any setting and role up a Swordmage, and it wouldn't make a lick of difference to the game. I mean, it's a fully functional class, and it's getting support in a non-setting-specific book, _Arcane Power_. Why exclude them?

...The reasoning I've heard previously is, "It's so that it looks like WotC is publishing four classes per power source!" Except that there's going to be at least six classes for the Arcane power source, for example.


----------



## Elphilm (Nov 18, 2008)

Oh, it certainly wasn't because I've got something against the Artificer and the Swordmage - just that the classes in the matrix are "the core", as in published in the Player's Handbooks. No value judgement intended.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Nov 18, 2008)

Elphilm said:


> Oh, it certainly wasn't because I've got something against the Artificer and the Swordmage - just that the classes in the matrix are "the core", as in published in the Player's Handbooks. No value judgement intended.



They're core enough to be mentioned in other books beyond player's guides, and it's been stated by the designers that they're core too.


----------



## Andor (Nov 18, 2008)

Kobold Avenger said:


> They're core enough to be mentioned in other books beyond player's guides, and it's been stated by the designers that they're core too.




Does the word 'core' hae any meaning any more, aside from 'Produced by Wotc'?

Not a snark, I'm genuinely curious. Does Wotc produce any material that is _not_ core? If not I think the meaning has shifted from 'These materials are the base of the game' to 'Not a 3rd party product.'


----------



## jsaving (Nov 18, 2008)

Elphilm said:


> If we leave out setting specific classes such as the Artificer and the Swordmage, WotC appears to be going for four classes per each power source.



Yes, they've said on several occasions that they need at least four classes per splatbook, so it's quite likely we'll see exactly four classes per power source in the future.


----------



## Dr. Strangemonkey (Nov 18, 2008)

There are two ways I would go with a Divine Striker either of which could fit - with some modification - the avenger:

1.) Holy Slayer/Assassin - Something more in line with the original sense of the term.  This would be a character who was good at disguises, sowing confusion, and could take lots of damage in the pursuit of target offensive to the religion.  Probably lots of fire.  

2.) Exorcist - Not so much the Western idea - though some of that - as the Eastern idea of someone armed with weird weapons, some wards, and almost no armor.  Loads of bonuses fighting the supernatural and helping people with saving throws.  Should have some sort of mental duel mechanic.


----------



## darjr (Nov 18, 2008)

andor said:


> does the word 'core' hae any meaning any more, aside from 'produced by wotc'?




rpga


----------



## jsaving (Nov 18, 2008)

Perhaps WotC will swipe GW's mesmer and have the avenger slap divine punishments on foes who perform specific actions such as making a melee attack or casting a spell.  (Belkar's divinely imposed mark of justice from OOTS would be a more humorous example.)  This would fit the literal definition of avenger as somebody who exacts punishment for previous actions, and would certainly differentiate the divine striker from other strikers that have thus far been introduced.


----------



## Bold or Stupid (Nov 19, 2008)

I had been thinking of designing a divine striker that had an ability to "victimise" an enemy, sort of like Hunter's quarry, but not switchable until the foe was dead. Their powers would be either Holy strike like more damage to the victim, and area effects that didn't push the victim. I'd put them in heavy armour and push two handers there way for an unstoppable black knight ploughing through the battle to get you image. 

This was a long winded statement of what I hope the avenger will be.


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 19, 2008)

Elphilm said:
			
		

> Oh, it certainly wasn't because I've got something against the Artificer and the Swordmage - just that the classes in the matrix are "the core", as in published in the Player's Handbooks. No value judgement intended.



We're cool, E. 



Kobold Avenger said:


> They're core enough to be mentioned in other books beyond player's guides, and it's been stated by the designers that they're core too.






Andor said:


> Does the word 'core' hae any meaning any more, aside from 'Produced by Wotc'?
> 
> Not a snark, I'm genuinely curious. Does Wotc produce any material that is _not_ core? If not I think the meaning has shifted from 'These materials are the base of the game' to 'Not a 3rd party product.'



The simplest answer is probably what darjr so succinctly suggests:



darjr said:


> rpga



It's an odd position we're currently in. On the one hand, "core" used to mean "The basics; the bare minimum  number of products necessary to play the game." This meaning still exists, because there is still a bare minimum one needs in order to play D&D. OTOH, because the previous meaning of "core" apparently implied superiority or enhanced quality beyond that of supplements, WotC decided to declare all of its material "core". It's obvious where the confusion comes from.

We've got one word with two incompatible definitions. What we need is two words.



jsaving said:


> Yes, they've said on several occasions that they need *at least* four classes per splatbook, so it's quite likely we'll see *exactly* four classes per power source in the future.



...?  Are you being sarcastic, or does "at least" mean "exactly" now?


----------



## dm4hire (Nov 20, 2008)

jsaving said:


> Yes, they've said on several occasions that they need at least four classes per splatbook, so it's quite likely we'll see exactly four classes per power source in the future.




This is my thinking also to which I broke down how the books will be divided, especially since the remainder of the Power Books come after PHBII.

Arcane will cover Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard
Divine will cover Avenger, Cleric, Invoker, and Paladin
Primal will cover Barbarian, Druid, Shaman, and Warden

This division is based on there being a total of 16 classes between PHB & PHBII and currently only four power sources.  That is unless they introduce an additional power source, such as elemental which could be what Sorcerers use.  The additional power sources as listed in the PHB were elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow.  If WotC stays with four classes per book then it would make sense that they wouldn’t introduce another power beyond primal so that all the classes balance out between the first four books.

With primal being covered in PHB II that would also leave four powers left to be divided between PHB III and PHB IV.  Each source getting four classes would give eight classes per book equaling 16 more classes by the end of 2010 in addition to any campaign setting classes.  Due to all the demand and chatter on the boards there’s no doubt psionics will be in PHBIII and most likely either ki or elemental depending on how much noise fans of the Monk have made to WotC.


----------



## firesnakearies (Nov 20, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> This is my thinking also to which I broke down how the books will be divided, especially since the remainder of the Power Books come after PHBII.
> 
> Arcane will cover Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard
> Divine will cover Avenger, Cleric, Invoker, and Paladin
> ...






Best case scenario in my opinion:  PHBIII covers Psionic and Ki Heroes, and the third campaign setting is Dark Sun.  That would be totally awesome.


----------



## Squizzle (Nov 20, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> Best case scenario in my opinion:  PHBIII covers Psionic and Ki Heroes, and the third campaign setting is Dark Sun.  That would be totally awesome.




 From what I understand of Dark Sun, psionic and elemental would be a far better fit for that setting than psionic and ki. Perhaps two each of ki and elemental classes, plus four psionic? Then PHB4 could be two each ki and elemental, plus four shadow.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Nov 20, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> This is my thinking also to which I broke down how the books will be divided, especially since the remainder of the Power Books come after PHBII.
> 
> Arcane will cover Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard



The Arcane Power Blurb clearly includes Swordmages.


----------



## dm4hire (Nov 20, 2008)

That's assuming Amazon's listing is current and correct.  The catalogue might state the same thing, but we're four months out.  The cover preview doesn't list any classes on it.  One of my friends was upset with the Martial book because he had heard that originally the Paladin was suppose to be included with it but it is obviously now in the Divine book.  The problem is that the book is listed at 160 pages which also lends to it not possibily including the Swordmage as that thins down how many pages a class would get or cuts back on the number of feats.  The Martial book is 160 pages, serving four.


----------



## JPL (Nov 20, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> Best case scenario in my opinion:  PHBIII covers Psionic and Ki Heroes, and the third campaign setting is Dark Sun.  That would be totally awesome.





Hmm . . . or pair up Elemental / Psionic for Dark Sun, and then do Ki / Shadow for Oriental Adventures.


----------



## Thasmodious (Nov 21, 2008)

firesnakearies said:


> Best case scenario in my opinion:  PHBIII covers Psionic and Ki Heroes, and the third campaign setting is Dark Sun.  That would be totally awesome.




That would be cool.  I'm wondering, though, if we will see a new Oriental Adventures, with the ki power source presented in that book - monk, ki striker; wu jen, ki controller; samurai, ki defender, etc. Two power sources and 8 classes in OA would be cool.


----------



## falcarrion (Nov 21, 2008)

does anyone remember the npc class from Dragon magazines early years.
it started with an I .  was it incantrix?

Though I'm still hopeing it stands for I-candy....lol


----------



## Fifth Element (Nov 21, 2008)

falcarrion said:


> does anyone remember the npc class from Dragon magazines early years.
> it started with an I .  was it incantrix?
> 
> Though I'm still hopeing it stands for I-candy....lol



Incantatrix IIRC. A FR class, again IIRC.

Edit: It was in Dragon 90, according to the DragonDex.


----------



## falcarrion (Nov 21, 2008)

Sorry I'm not up on all the abreveations.

please be more specific.


----------



## justanobody (Nov 21, 2008)

Fifth Element said:


> Incantatrix IIRC. A FR class, again IIRC.
> 
> Edit: It was in Dragon 90, according to the DragonDex.




IIRC = If i recall correctly.
FR = Forgotten Realms


----------



## doctorhook (Nov 21, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> This is my thinking also to which I broke down how the books will be divided, especially since the remainder of the Power Books come after PHBII.
> 
> Arcane will cover Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, and Wizard
> Divine will cover Avenger, Cleric, Invoker, and Paladin
> Primal will cover Barbarian, Druid, Shaman, and Warden



You forgot the Swordmage, as Kobold Avenger pointed out.



			
				dm4hire said:
			
		

> This division is based on there being a total of 16 classes between PHB & PHBII and currently only four power sources.  That is unless they introduce an additional power source, such as elemental which could be what Sorcerers use.  The additional power sources as listed in the PHB were elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow.  If WotC stays with four classes per book then it would make sense that they wouldn’t introduce another power beyond primal so that all the classes balance out between the first four books.



Sorcerer will be Arcane, bro. It's pretty late in the game for them to up and change the nature of a major release which will be on store shelves five months from now.



			
				dm4hire said:
			
		

> With primal being covered in PHB II that would also leave four powers left to be divided between PHB III and PHB IV.  Each source getting four classes would give eight classes per book equaling 16 more classes by the end of 2010 in addition to any campaign setting classes.  Due to all the demand and chatter on the boards there’s no doubt psionics will be in PHBIII and most likely either ki or elemental depending on how much noise fans of the Monk have made to WotC.



I think you're right about Psionics and Ki; Elemental or Shadow could be a toss-up for PH3.



dm4hire said:


> That's assuming Amazon's listing is current and correct. The catalogue might state the same thing, but we're four months out. The cover preview doesn't list any classes on it.



IIRC, that scoop originally came from the catalogue, not from Amazon. Logan Bonner mentions that _Arcane Power_ will contain support for more classes than _Martial Power_ does, here. Since _MP_ has four classes, that means _Arcane Power_ will contain at least five: Bard, Sorcerer, SWORDMAGE, Warlock, and Wizard. (Incidentally, he offers this explanation as a reason why the Artificer *won't* be in _AP_.)



			
				dm4hire said:
			
		

> One of my friends was upset with the Martial book because he had heard that originally the Paladin was suppose to be included with it but it is obviously now in the Divine book.



Respectfully, your friend obviously heard wrong. AFAIK, nobody ever publically suggested either that the Paladin would be Martial, or that a book about Martial classes would include material for a Divine class.

This is not a case of something getting changed before publication, it's a case of pure misinformation.




			
				dm4hire said:
			
		

> The problem is that the book is listed at 160 pages which also lends to it not possibily including the Swordmage as that thins down how many pages a class would get or cuts back on the number of feats. The Martial book is 160 pages, serving four.



We did this part already.



falcarrion said:


> Sorry I'm not up on all the abreveations.
> 
> please be more specific.



Do you see the dotted underline beneath each abbreviation? That means that if you hold your cursor over top that abbreviation, it will show you the definition.

IIRC = "If I recall/remember correctly"
FR = "Forgotten Realms"

I hope that helps!


----------



## dm4hire (Nov 21, 2008)

doctorhook said:


> You forgot the Swordmage, as Kobold Avenger pointed out.
> 
> Sorcerer will be Arcane, bro. It's pretty late in the game for them to up and change the nature of a major release which will be on store shelves five months from now.




I didn't forget Swordmage; I left them out for a reason.  Namely there is nothing outside the Amazon listing stating it's included.  If you go to WotC's page the description is now blank or at least when I visited it before posting it wasn't and I just checked again.  As for it being to late it isn't.  The book comes out in March.  Final editing would need to be done no later than the end of December at the latest to allow two months printing and then shipping the first two weeks of March to meet a third week release.



doctorhook said:


> I think you're right about Psionics and Ki; Elemental or Shadow could be a toss-up for PH3.




And this speculation assumes they stick with the power sources listed in the PHB as that could change also.  



doctorhook said:


> IIRC, that scoop originally came from the catalogue, not from Amazon. Logan Bonner mentions that _Arcane Power_ will contain support for more classes than _Martial Power_ does, here. Since _MP_ has four classes, that means _Arcane Power_ will contain at least five: Bard, Sorcerer, SWORDMAGE, Warlock, and Wizard. (Incidentally, he offers this explanation as a reason why the Artificer *won't* be in _AP_.)




Again as I mentioned, this assumes that they stick with what is stated.  It wouldn't be the first time that a product has changed a little if not a lot before release.  4e as a whole changed quite a bit compared to the early previews that first came out for it, Bard was pushed back to PHBII, mechanics changed, etc, etc.



doctorhook said:


> Respectfully, your friend obviously heard wrong. AFAIK, nobody ever publically suggested either that the Paladin would be Martial, or that a book about Martial classes would include material for a Divine class.
> 
> This is not a case of something getting changed before publication, it's a case of pure misinformation.
> 
> We did this part already.




Actually I don't view the Paladin as a divine class myself, at least not compared to past editions, and as for my friend's observations I'm not certain where he got his information.  He spends a lot of time on the different RPGA forums and such so perhaps it was something he picked up from there.  The other aspect is that I think he was hoping that the Martial book would be more along the lines of the Complete books in 3e and thus provide options for making martial aligned classes more martial while expanding the strictly martial classes, i.e. options that would enhance the sword and board options for Paladins in place of the divine aspects.


----------



## Fifth Element (Nov 21, 2008)

justanobody said:


> IIRC = If i recall correctly.
> FR = Forgotten Realms



That's right. And by "Forgotten Realms", I may just mean "designed by Ed Greenwood."

As an aside, I think we can call the Invoker confirmed now, since the playtest release for that class was announced for December by WotC.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Nov 21, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> Actually I don't view the Paladin as a divine class myself, at least not compared to past editions



I understand the words you use, but your statement makes no sense.


----------



## Rechan (Nov 21, 2008)

Druid playtest out Dec 1.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (Nov 21, 2008)

Squizzle said:


> From what I understand of Dark Sun, psionic and elemental would be a far better fit for that setting than psionic and ki. Perhaps two each of ki and elemental classes, plus four psionic? Then PHB4 could be two each ki and elemental, plus four shadow.




I realy realy hope they switch shadow and Ki there...

2010 Dark sun (Please please please), PHBIII (4 psi, 2 elmental, 2 shadow)...
2011 PHB IV ( 2shadow 2 elemental 4 ki)
2012 PHBV (a new powersource, and a bunch of 'extra' for the others)


----------



## dm4hire (Nov 21, 2008)

My statement is in reference to the reason Paladin was excluded from the Martial book, meaning that it seems more of a martial based class than divine.  I could have written it better I'm sure, but it really wasn't my focus of the response.

As for PHBV I'm wondering if that will happen.  It would seem logical to me to tighten edition releases and time them about every five to six years.  So maybe a five but doubt anything beyond that as sales really start to dwindle after five years pushing a need for either revision or new edition sales wise.  Though if they keep the classes as tight as they seem to be trying for they could effectively push back the need for an edition to eight or ten years.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Nov 21, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> My statement is in reference to the reason Paladin was excluded from the Martial book, meaning that it seems more of a martial based class than divine.



In what sense is this true? The paladin has been a *holy* knight ever since Gary Gygax took the specific inspiration for the class from Poul Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_. It's certainly accumulated more overt divine magic since then, but it has *always* been associated with divine power, even when paladins weren't considered to serve deities directly.

Certainly, in Fourth Edition, only a lunatic would expect _Martial Power_ to cover the class.


----------



## bagger245 (Nov 21, 2008)

mhacdebhandia said:


> Certainly, in Fourth Edition, only a lunatic would expect _Martial Power_ to cover the class.




No need to be so condescending here...
By the way, if Martial Power book only accomodate the 4 present martial classes, then
will there be a Martial Power 2, for those pressumably new martial classes in the future?


----------



## Rechan (Nov 21, 2008)

bagger245 said:


> No need to be so condescending here...
> By the way, if Martial Power book only accomodate the 4 present martial classes, then
> will there be a Martial Power 2, for those pressumably new martial classes in the future?



I think it would be a long, long time before we get 4 new martial classes, considering that they still have a bunch of power sources to go through.

Now, new class features/powers for the existing classes, that's more likely. But honestly, I'd like WotC to wait for 2016 before they're going back over ground they've covered.


----------



## firesnakearies (Nov 21, 2008)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I realy realy hope they switch shadow and Ki there...
> 
> 2010 Dark sun (Please please please), PHBIII (4 psi, 2 elmental, 2 shadow)...
> 2011 PHB IV ( 2shadow 2 elemental 4 ki)
> 2012 PHBV (a new powersource, and a bunch of 'extra' for the others)





I _really_ can't see them waiting until 2011 to put out *4th Edition* Monks.  Monks are pretty popular.

Look at the classes that have been most often attempted to be brought into *4E* so far, either by third-party publishers or by fans.  Druids, Barbarians, and Bards are probably the biggest three, but they're all coming in _PHBII _for sure.  The next most called-for class is the Monk, as evidenced in the new _Advanced Player's Guide_, _Forgotten Heroes_, and the around five or six different fan-built versions floating around the forums.

It seems very unlikely to me that an official *4E* Monk class won't be published by Q2 2010 at the _latest_.  _PHBIII_ seems the most likely place.

Maybe they'll just do two of each new power source in _PHBIII_.  That would be pretty sweet, actually.  They could get the most essential Elemental, Ki, Shadow, and Psionic classes out in one book, and then add more later.

It seems to me like Psionic and Ki are the ones that have the most "core-like" untouched content in *4E* at this point.  Monks and Psions are already long-established, popular character types which many people are clamoring for.  Anything they come out with for Elemental or Shadow seems like it's going to be a bit "niche" or brand new concepts, since we already have Wizards, Sorcerers, and Druids in other power sources.

Yeah, Elemental classes would probably mesh better with _Dark Sun_'s (hopeful!) release, but I just really want Monks first.


----------



## dm4hire (Nov 21, 2008)

mhacdebhandia said:


> In what sense is this true? The paladin has been a *holy* knight ever since Gary Gygax took the specific inspiration for the class from Poul Anderson's _Three Hearts and Three Lions_. It's certainly accumulated more overt divine magic since then, but it has *always* been associated with divine power, even when paladins weren't considered to serve deities directly.
> 
> Certainly, in Fourth Edition, only a lunatic would expect _Martial Power_ to cover the class.




I understand that and if you read the previous post that my statement is in response to; you would see that I said Paladins seem less divine than previous editions.  I was making an edition comparison.   I'm sure that will be corrected in the Divine Book once it comes out, but we'll have to wait and see.  As it stands now the Paladin only heals and dishes out radiant (Holy) damage, missing elements of previous versions of the class.


----------



## dm4hire (Nov 21, 2008)

I agree about the monk, it seems there is a lot of requests floating around for it.  However I'm not sure which aspect we'll end up getting from WotC.  If it is the asian based variety then I could seem them waiting a couple of years to really work out the system for a more even flow and feel for that type of setting.  If they go along past incarnations then yes 2010 seems like a good place for it to pop up.


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Nov 21, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> I understand that and if you read the previous post that my statement is in response to; you would see that I said Paladins seem less divine than previous editions.



You know, if that's what you meant, then I must have misread it. I apologise.

I still think it's crazy for anyone to think - as I think you said your friend did? - that the paladin would be covered in _Martial Power_, considering the whole point of the _Power_ books is that they're tied to the power source.


----------



## firesnakearies (Nov 21, 2008)

dm4hire said:


> ...Paladins seem less divine than previous editions . . . As it stands now the Paladin only heals and dishes out radiant (Holy) damage...






Um.


----------



## MacMathan (Dec 11, 2008)

So now that we have more definite info on which classes are in and have seen more of a few of the classes any further speculation?


----------



## thecasualoblivion (Dec 11, 2008)

Well, the names of the 8 classes have been 100% confirmed. Lets add up what we know:

Barbarian--Primal Striker, detailed information from playtest
Bard--Arcane Leader, a lot of info from 10 level preview
Druid--Primal Controller, 3 level preview gives us the basic overview
Sorcerer--They've been saying it will be a second Arcane Controller
Invoker--Bill said in Ampersand that the Invoker preview we will see on monday will be of a Divine Controller that involves summoning.
Shaman--Confirmed as Primal. Has been described as a Primal Leader for a long time now
Warden--Confirmed as Primal. In the Minotaur article, the Minotaur race was described as a good fit for the Warden class. That sounds defenderish(Minotaur +2Str/Con).
Avenger--Confirmed as Divine. Speculation is that this will be a Divine Striker, and is nothing but speculation.


----------



## RandomCitizenX (Dec 11, 2008)

Just realized that we will be getting 3 controllers in this book, which brings them in line with as many options as every role but strikers (since martial double dipped on this role)


----------



## Kaodi (Dec 11, 2008)

So Primal and Divine will now be Power Sources with a full slate of roles?


----------



## Remathilis (Dec 11, 2008)

Kaodi said:


> So Primal and Divine will now be Power Sources with a full slate of roles?




Arcane also has all four if you count swordmage. (Swordmage/Def, Wizard/Con, Warlock/Stk, Bard&Artificer/Leader)

Martial only lacks a Controller. (Def, Ldr, Stk, Stk)

Not bad.


----------



## RandomCitizenX (Dec 12, 2008)

Remathilis said:


> Arcane also has all four if you count swordmage. (Swordmage/Def, Wizard/Con, Warlock/Stk, Bard&Artificer/Leader)
> 
> Martial only lacks a Controller. (Def, Ldr, Stk, Stk)
> 
> Not bad.





Don't forget Sorc as a second Arcane Controller


----------



## balard (Dec 12, 2008)

I say that PHBIII will be psi, ki and shadow. 4 psi classes, illusionist, necro, monk and another ki dude. Hopefully with Darksun release. This way they get all the major archetypes back into the game


----------



## almuric (Dec 12, 2008)

```
| Controller        | Leader          | Defender   | Striker    |
          ------------------- ----------------- ------------ ------------
Divine   | Invoker           | Cleric          | Paladin    | Avenger(?) |
          ------------------- ----------------- ------------ ------------
Arcane   | Wizard            | Bard            | Swordmage  | Warlock    |
         | Sorceror          | Artificer       |            |            |
          ------------------- ----------------- ------------ ------------
Martial  |                   | Warlord         |  Fighter   | Rogue      |
         |                   |                 |            | Ranger     |
          ------------------- ----------------- ------------ ------------
Primal   | Druid             | Shaman          |  Warden(?) | Barbarian  |
          ------------------- ----------------- ------------ ------------
Ki       
Psionic  
Shadow
```

Does that look right?


----------



## Khuxan (Dec 12, 2008)

almuric said:


> Does that look right?




Avenger has been confirmed as Divine, according to this thread.


----------



## RandomCitizenX (Dec 12, 2008)

Khuxan said:


> Avenger has been confirmed as Divine, according to this thread.




I've seen that thrown around a few other places as well, but it makes sense when you consider that the Avenger was a paladin variant in earlier editions


----------



## almuric (Dec 12, 2008)

Would nicely fill out the grid if the sorceror(er?) turns out to be a martial controller.


----------



## Remathilis (Dec 12, 2008)

balard said:


> I say that PHBIII will be psi, ki and shadow. 4 psi classes, illusionist, necro, monk and another ki dude. Hopefully with Darksun release. This way they get all the major archetypes back into the game




Hmmm... Just a theory on your idea...

Psion: Psionic Controller
Psychic Warrior: Psionic Defender
Ardent: Psionic Leader
Soulknife: Psionic Striker
Illusionist: Shadow Controller
Necromancer: Shadow Leader
Monk: Ki Striker
Samurai: Ki Defender

So you'd have all the psychic classes, the two classic "shadow" classes, and the two classic "ki" classes. Then, in PHB IV, you could add the rest of the roles to shadow and Ki and add Elemental.


----------



## chronoplasm (Dec 12, 2008)

If I may speculate on the Avenger...

1) In PHB I, strikers were glass cannons; high on offense but low on defense. 
PHB II gives us the Barbarian however, a striker who is high on defense with high HP but no armor. 
I think the Avenger will give us the other side of this; an armored striker.

2) The PHB I gave us a ranged striker (Warlock), a more melee oriented striker (Rogue), and a striker that can go both ways with its build options (Ranger.)
So far we know that the Barbarian will be melee oriented.
To balance this, I think the Avenger will be range oriented. 
Long range also helps to differentiate the Avenger from the Paladin; the Paladin is all about swords, shields, and melee, so perhaps the Avenger will focus on radiant lasers and divine lightning, and perhaps ranged weapons like longbows.

To sum it up, my guess is that the Avenger will be a heavily armored ranged-attacker. Avengers may equip longbows and scale armor and shoot both arrows (perhaps infused with divine energy) and beams of holy energy.

That's my guess, anyway.


----------



## Zsig (Dec 12, 2008)

When I come to think about PHB III and IV, there are basicly two possible ways that it could be (probably more ways, but mainly these two):

1) Theme based.
Let's assume that Ki stands for Martial the same way Elemental stands for Arcane (and vice-versa). So that with Ki and Elemental you could base a whole Asian/Oriental campaign/setting, with ki getting monks, ninjas, sohei and whatnots and then Elemental getting the Shugenja (controller) some air/water healing dude (Leader), some fire-based dude (Striker) ad some Earth-based ironskinned dude (defender)... well, I dunno about these examples, but I think you got the idea.

That way they could simply dedicate a whole book for that kind of stuff:
Let's say, 
PHB IV : 
4 Ki classes
4 Elemental Classes

Then on the earlier book (PHB 3) we'd get another 4/4 split.
PHB III:
4 Psionic Classes
4 Shadow Classes

They could give a much higher emphasys on the setting on those years, in 2009 probably going along with, say, Dark Sun, and on 2010 some oriental setting (either new or another attempt at Rokugan).

Just because PHB I and PHB II are following a 4/2/2 "method" it doesn't have to mean future books must follow the same format, even more considering they had to cover lots of ground on the beginning, and missing some key elements would had been bad. (ie: Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Wizard; 4 Classes, 3 Power Sources, remove one and you're screwed). 

It doesn't necessarily need to be that way for future products, but see below.

2) "Distribution" based.
Following earlier PHB books, they would still split them (the classes) under the 4/2/2 as it would give a more "incomplete" feeling and thus would sell better, as you'd end up with the feeling that you'll want the next book to get the classes that got left out.

On the same note, they can't for instance give us everything we're missing from earlier editions in a single book. Monk, Illusionist, Necromancer +Psionics, if they bring all that in a single book (PHB 3), there won't be anything "important" on the next book that's significant enough for some people to get it. Even though the idea of having a book containing 8 new and never before seen classes would be awesome for some people, for some other people it would be the complete opposite, which means, they wouldn't buy a book if there's nothing in there that they already identify with.

For that reason, I think that if it follows that method we'd see something like this (although it could work some other way):

Shadow (4)
Ki (2)
Elemental (2)


Psionics (4)
Ki (2)
Elemental (2)

Pick these two distributions any order you want for PHB 3 and 4. (And also, Shadow and Elemental being interchangeable).

----------------------
Which way do I think it's best? 
Actually both ways have problems.

See, when I say that "some people might not like the book for it doesn't have something 'important' for them" in method (1) it's much easier for that to happen. Myself, for instance, wouldn't buy a PHB fully centered on Oriental classes, as I personally have no interest on it, and the way I divided it up, PHB 4 would be fully "Oriental".

Method (2) gives the feeling of "incomplete" as mentioned above, which I don't like either.


Either way, I'm getting the impression that my chances of getting any PHB after PHB II are getting considerably diminished as time goes by. In the end, naturally, only time will tell when I get to see what's inside, and then decide about it.

Anyways, this is just some random speculation from my part, sorry if I made you read through all of this


----------



## firesnakearies (Dec 12, 2008)

balard said:


> I say that PHBIII will be psi, ki and shadow. 4 psi classes, illusionist, necro, monk and another ki dude. Hopefully with Darksun release. This way they get all the major archetypes back into the game





This is 100% exactly what I've been asking for and want to happen.  That would be perfect!


----------



## Cadfan (Dec 12, 2008)

Remathilis said:


> Hmmm... Just a theory on your idea...
> 
> Psion: Psionic Controller
> Psychic Warrior: Psionic Defender
> ...



I think everyone has the Shadow power source wrong.  Everyone's assuming that because the Shadow power source has been previewed as containing necromancy and illusion, that there must be a necromancer and an illusionist.

I think that's faulty reasoning.

The Shadow power source was born from the 3e Shadowcaster.  It used illusions, sure, but only as a portion of a larger power set.  That's the same way it used necromancy.  I'd look for the Shadow power source to be more about "shadow" as in "the themes that animated the shadow power source in 3e augmented for 4e" instead of as in "individual classes that each focus on one constituent element of the things that went into the mixture that we call the shadow power source."

So I'd expect the Shadowcaster himself to be the controller.  I'd look for some sort of class that mixes the shadowdancer and the Shadow Hand discipline from Tome of Battle.  I'd expect the necromancer, honestly, but maybe not in the way everyone thinks- remember that one base class for 3e that was all necromancy but didn't really summon stuff?  I'd expect that.  I don't know what the fourth will be.


----------



## chronoplasm (Dec 12, 2008)

Personally, I'd prefer to see the Blackguard in PHB III as a shadow defender.


----------



## Nahat Anoj (Dec 12, 2008)

chronoplasm said:


> To sum it up, my guess is that the Avenger will be a heavily armored ranged-attacker. Avengers may equip longbows and scale armor and shoot both arrows (perhaps infused with divine energy) and beams of holy energy.



I agree that the avenger will be a heavy striker like the barbarian.  Unlike the barbarian, which gets defender style hitpoints and gobs of thps but low AC, I believe that avengers will get good armor (up to Chain at least) but have traditional striker/leader style hitpoints.  Perhaps a less platey, more stabbity avenging paladin?    I don't think they'll be ranged - or, at least, I don't think they'll be exclusively ranged.  That is, avengers could have two builds, one for up close and personal melee avenging, the other for avenging from a distance, behind the defender.


----------



## Stogoe (Dec 12, 2008)

chronoplasm said:


> Personally, I'd prefer to see the Blackguard in PHB III as a shadow defender.




Eh.  I think of the Blackguard as divine myself.  I hope they call the Shadow Defender the Hexblade.


----------



## chronoplasm (Dec 12, 2008)

Stogoe said:


> Eh. I think of the Blackguard as divine myself. I hope they call the Shadow Defender the Hexblade.




That could work too. Methinks it would be pretty neat to have both a Hexblade and a Hexhammer built Warlock in the same party.
Hex could be the new War!

Yeah, but in any case, I'm rooting for some kind of shadow defender in PHB III because I love me some black knights.


----------



## Incendax (Dec 18, 2008)

Lets work under the likely assumption that WotC is creating 4 of each power source. The origional PHB had 4 martial, 2 divine, 2 arcane. That means that the PHBII should have 4 primal, 2 divine, 2 arcane.tri

Avenger: Divine Striker. This fills in the Striker slot.
Barbarian: Primal Striker. we've all seen the preview.
Bard: Arcane Leader, we've all seen the preview.
Druid: Primal Controller, we've all seen the preview.
Invoker: Divine Controller, we've all seen the preview.
Shaman: Primal Leader, we've all seen the preview.
Warden: Primal Defender. This fills in the Defender Slot.

That has every single role filled but Arcane Defender, which WAS filled by the campaign specific Swordmage.

That means that Sorceror is the big wild-card.


----------



## Rechan (Dec 18, 2008)

Incendax said:


> Shaman: Primal Leader, we've all seen the preview.



WHAT preview?!


----------



## mach1.9pants (Dec 18, 2008)

almuric said:


> Would nicely fill out the grid if the sorceror(er?) turns out to be a martial controller.



LOL if they can call a primal's powers 'evocations' why not!


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Dec 18, 2008)

Incendax said:


> That has every single role filled but Arcane Defender, which WAS filled by the campaign specific Swordmage.




Martial Controller.

They are not going to fill out the grid.

Sorcerer is an Arcane Controller.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Dec 18, 2008)

Incendax said:


> That has every single role filled but Arcane Defender, which WAS filled by the campaign specific Swordmage.



But, remember, it is only 'campaign specific' in that it appeared in the FRPG. It (like everything is) is still CORE. You can use it in any campaign, especially if you subscribe to DDI 'cos it is in the Char Builder


----------



## Rechan (Dec 18, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:


> But, remember, it is only 'campaign specific' in that it appeared in the FRPG. It (like everything is) is still CORE. You can use it in any campaign, especially if you subscribe to DDI 'cos it is in the Char Builder



It's core because the RPGA can use it.


----------



## Felon (Dec 18, 2008)

An avenger will inherit the paladin's smite ability, and will be some wrath-of-god inqueisitor-type. 

That's my progonstication for the day.


----------



## silentounce (Dec 18, 2008)

Felon said:


> An avenger will inherit the paladin's smite ability, and will be some wrath-of-god inqueisitor-type.
> 
> That's my progonstication for the day.




I believe you would be correct.  Wasn't the original name of this class "templar"?  I think this was the one that original started with a "t" before it was renamed.


----------



## Hawke (Dec 20, 2008)

If I guessed the Invoker's original name was Theurge (the t) and the Avenger's original name was Inquisitor (the i). I could be wrong though!


----------



## Wonka (Dec 20, 2008)

Zsig said:


> Shadow (4)
> Ki (2)
> Elemental (2)
> 
> ...




Just as long as the monk is in PHIII. Still sucks to have to wait that long for a monk though, as my DM is pretty against non-core stuff, so no APG or Song/Fist monks allowed.


----------



## Rechan (Dec 20, 2008)

I repeat again, since it seems to have been not answered:



			
				Incendax said:
			
		

> Shaman: Primal Leader, we've all seen the preview.




What preview?


----------



## thecasualoblivion (Dec 21, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I repeat again, since it seems to have been not answered:
> 
> 
> 
> What preview?




There has been no preview, but the designers have been calling the Shaman a Primal Leader since Races and Classes.


----------



## Felon (Dec 21, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I repeat again, since it seems to have been not answered:
> 
> What preview?



Incendax made the comment. It's just possible nobody else knows what he's referring to any more than you do.

I believe the confirmation about the shaman's inclusion in PHBII comes solely from the power cards listed on Amazon.


----------



## Rechan (Dec 21, 2008)

Felon said:


> I believe the confirmation about the shaman's inclusion in PHBII comes solely from the power cards listed on Amazon.



It's been mentioned in passing in an article. All of a sentence, when talking about leaders, and dropping the Shaman's name.


----------



## Shroomy (Dec 21, 2008)

Felon said:


> Incendax made the comment. It's just possible nobody else knows what he's referring to any more than you do.
> 
> I believe the confirmation about the shaman's inclusion in PHBII comes solely from the power cards listed on Amazon.




The shaman has also been mentioned in some DDI articles.  This month's Ampersand column covers a Primal epic destiny that can be taken by any druid, warden, barbarian, or shaman.


----------



## thecasualoblivion (Dec 21, 2008)

The Shaman was first mentioned as a Primal Leader in Races and Classes I believe. It has been mentioned in passing in Dragon and in some developers comments on message boards.


----------



## Felon (Dec 21, 2008)

Okay, great. There we go.


----------



## reticent (Dec 21, 2008)

Anybody know what the Warden's shtick is yet?  Beyond being the Primal Defender I mean.

Is it another melee weapon class, a shapeshift class, a pet class, etc?


----------



## thecasualoblivion (Dec 21, 2008)

reticent said:


> Anybody know what the Warden's shtick is yet?  Beyond being the Primal Defender I mean.
> 
> Is it another melee weapon class, a shapeshift class, a pet class, etc?




We'll see January 5th.


----------



## Hawke (Dec 21, 2008)

I think the most exciting would be a shapeshift class. As much as I'm enjoying the current weapon based classes, I'd love to see some kind of new mechanic to make this class something more than another Fighter build.


----------



## Vael (Dec 21, 2008)

I'm guessing they do have some shapeshifting powers. What has been said about Wardens is that Minotaurs make good ones, so STR and/or CON are primary stats, and that a Fire Salamander mini was used to represent one here.


----------

