# Completely off topic: considering a divorce and need any advice out there



## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

I'd really love any advice from anybody who has considered, or who has been through a similar situation as mine.  I'm not going to base my decision on a discussion on a message board, but I will probably feel better after venting, and any outside voice will be a welcome one.

Here's the situation:

I'm 34, the Wife is 37 (and will be 38 in a few weeks).  Our baby will turn 1 in less than two weeks, and our 6 year anniversary is tomorrow (the 4th).  We've been dating since we met, in June of 1999.

Since the baby has been born, if the two of us aren't shouting at each other, we're giving each other the silent treatment.  The last time we were "intimate" with each other was sometime before baseball season started (which is at the beginning of April).  I know you're only getting one side of this story, but I honestly can't remember intentionally ever starting a fight between us.  I am always trying to make things better, but she'll pick one minute thing that I did, and the whole effort will be a lost one.

The baby seems very happy, and I keep telling myself to endure this marriage where I feel verbally abused, but I don't think I can take it anymore.

My wife is refusing counseling together, so I go myself once every two weeks.

Neither of us has a real social circle.  She quit her job to be a stay at home Mom and now she only sees some people she plays tennis with for an hour or two 2-3 times a week.  I haven't kept in touch with old friends and I pretty much have coworkers to talk to (3 people), and they're all at least 15 years older than me (so there's a disconnect there).  The most support I'm getting is from my boss, who has a similar, easygoing personality as mine, and went through a similar situation with his ex-wife.  Other than coworkers, I've joined a fall softball league to meet new people, which starts in a few weeks.

We've had fights over the past six months where I've just walked out after she's told me she doesn't want me around.  That's where I am right now, I went into work at 11:30 at night, and plan on sleeping here tonight (it's in a hospital, so we have stretchers and blankets).

I know this is an incomplete story, but it can't be a good thing to be kicked out of your own house the night before your wedding anniversary.

As much as I miss my Wife and baby (and I really do miss them, especially my daughter), if it comes to divorce, which I really think it might, what advice can y'all give me?


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## megamania (Sep 4, 2010)

I may be way off here but it comes across as many of the problems began with the baby being concieved and born.  This idsa life changing event and one that causes a great deal of internal struggle and soul searching.  For a woman, it creates a great deal of hormonal changes that leads to duifferent emotional reactions and interests.


So I guess what I am saying is-

be sure it really is a cause for seperation

think about the new born also.

Otherwise.... I'm not sure what to say.  No matter what.... you will always question whatever decision the two of you make.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 4, 2010)

My only advice is to talk with a divorce attorney.  Not any old attorney, but one that specifically deals with divorce.  Not just for the legal protection, though that helps too.  While lawyer jokes are easy to make, these people see divorce every day, and may offer some advice none of here may think of.

Otherwise, I hope everything works out in the end, one way or the other.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

Thanks guys.  While my Wife and I have never had a perfect marriage (I know there's no such thing), we always did bicker more than most.  Definitely a lot more than my parents did growing up.  as much as I try to deny it, when I go home, I'm miserable around my wife.  I hope things change.  I want us to go to a counselor.  I don't want to be spending time sleeping at my job.


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## Umbran (Sep 4, 2010)

Just a note - you don't have to answer any questions about this that you don't want to. 

Also note - most of us here are not counselors, or mental health professionals, so please think carefully about what we say before you apply anything.



krunchyfrogg said:


> My wife is refusing counseling together, so I go myself once every two weeks.




First off - some kudos to you for trying to fix things as best you can.

Now a question: Does she give a reason for her refusal?

Some folks are highly resistant to airing their troubles to strangers.  In this case, talking to a stranger can be very helpful, because that person helps both of you remain in "civil" mode, which can be key to real communication.

But, if she won't do that, maybe getting a friend you both trust and who has some wisdom might still be constructive.  You might consider suggesting this to her.



> Neither of us has a real social circle.




You brought this up, so I expect you know that this isn't healthy.  Even introverted folks need to have contact with other human beings.   In a healthy marriage, your partner may be your best friend, but he or she is not your only friend.  

So, however you do it, the two of you need to get out and get some real human contact - especially your wife, who by the sound of it is even more isolated than you.



> As much as I miss my Wife and baby (and I really do miss them, especially my daughter), if it comes to divorce, which I really think it might, what advice can y'all give me?




My thoughts, should it come to that:

1) Your wife isn't evil.  She's under heavy stress, and seems to lack the normal outlets humans have for stress.  That is likely to give her anxiety and anger.  You just happen to be the best outlet she has now.  Don't vilify her.

2) You aren't evil either.  Don't beat up on yourself if it doesn't work out.  Sometimes, it just doesn't.


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## nedjer (Sep 4, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Just a note - you don't have to answer any questions about this that you don't want to.
> 
> Also note - most of us here are not counselors, or mental health professionals, so please think carefully about what we say before you apply anything.
> 
> ...




Can't comment on the specifics of this, but (aside from noting that Umbran's either wise beyond his years or his real name's Methuselah), there is, perhaps, a possibility of post-natal depression; which, were that the case, is a concern you'd maybe want to address.


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## IronWolf (Sep 4, 2010)

nedjer said:


> there is, perhaps, a possibility of post-natal depression; which, were that the case, is a concern you'd maybe want to address.




Partpartum depression was my first thought when I read the original post.  You mentioned you had been to a counselor, has this subject come up?  It is a very real possibility and your counselor might have strategies for bringing this topic up to your wife and hopefully from there working to resolve it at which point you might find things in your marriage turning around.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Just a note - you don't have to answer any questions about this that you don't want to.
> 
> Also note - most of us here are not counselors, or mental health professionals, so please think carefully about what we say before you apply anything.
> 
> ...



She believes that I will manipulate the counselor and come out smelling like roses, "just like he did on that episode of Everybody Loves Raymond"



Umbran said:


> Some folks are highly resistant to airing their troubles to strangers.  In this case, talking to a stranger can be very helpful, because that person helps both of you remain in "civil" mode, which can be key to real communication.
> 
> But, if she won't do that, maybe getting a friend you both trust and who has some wisdom might still be constructive.  You might consider suggesting this to her.



That's the problem, over the years, we've grown more and more distant from friends.  Now that she's home with the baby all the time, she has even less human contact, and any aggression comes out on me.

Before I met her, she had been to counselors before.  It's not like it's a foreign, or going into uncharted waters for her.



Umbran said:


> You brought this up, so I expect you know that this isn't healthy.  Even introverted folks need to have contact with other human beings.   In a healthy marriage, your partner may be your best friend, but he or she is not your only friend.
> 
> So, however you do it, the two of you need to get out and get some real human contact - especially your wife, who by the sound of it is even more isolated than you.



Yes, she is more isolated than me.  I have work to go to, and I am signed up for a fall softball league, where I'm guaranteed to meet at least 10 new people.  I am an introvert by nature, and as uncomfortable as it is, I'm doing this (not only b/c I love softball) to meet others.  

I suggested that she get out and get some human contact, but it was during a fight while I was storming out last night.  

I hope that she does call on a friend today, but I have my doubts.  I really wish she would, because not only does sheneed the contact, but I honestly believe (and maybe this is a bit selfish), that if she were to b*tch  and moan to some friends about me, and actually hear herself vocalize her complaints about me, she might realize how good she has it.  I bend over backwards to make this woman happy, and I get no returns on my efforts.



Umbran said:


> My thoughts, should it come to that:
> 
> 1) Your wife isn't evil.  She's under heavy stress, and seems to lack the normal outlets humans have for stress.  That is likely to give her anxiety and anger.  You just happen to be the best outlet she has now.  Don't vilify her.
> 
> 2) You aren't evil either.  Don't beat up on yourself if it doesn't work out.  Sometimes, it just doesn't.



  I know you're right, and while I hope I'm wrong, I just see this heading the way of the big D.  I need her to have another outlet.  I can't take her verbally abusing me when all I want to do is help her out.



IronWolf said:


> Partpartum depression was my first thought when I read the original post.  You mentioned you had been to a counselor, has this subject come up?  It is a very real possibility and your counselor might have strategies for bringing this topic up to your wife and hopefully from there working to resolve it at which point you might find things in your marriage turning around.



It could be post-partum depression.  It's never really come up in my sessions, but I did post a similar story on a different forum with this answer as well.  It was suggested to me that I bring it up with the pediatrician.  My issue is that the appointments with the pediatrician are made when I'm at work, and he's the husband of one of my Wife's tennis partners, which IMO is a conflict of interest.  

We actually just changed to this guy, and when I'm sure all the paperwork has gone through, I do plan on calling him before their first meeting with him.  Although I view it as a long shot, it's one I think I've got to take.


Thanks everybody.


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## fba827 (Sep 4, 2010)

(going based solely on what is written here, as well have having no real experience that qualifies me to give actual advice ....)

1) (as others have said) regarding the wife, i was also thinking about depression as i read that -- as you said, it did seem to pick up after the child was born.
2) the wife quit her job for the child and has no social circle, so there is the possibility that either
-- a) she is simply stressed (no outlet to deal with the major change you both just incurred since she is always home with the child) or
-- b) she is resentful (having to give up other aspects of her life for this change)
3) She is mad at you but has yet to communicate to you that she is angry (either for something big, or something small, or several small things, or for how 'life' is going, etc)
4) Some other topic that coincides with all this that you aren't yet realizing the full effect of (perhaps money got tighter when the baby was born and she quit her job?)
5) a combination of 1 & 2a & 2b & 3 & 4?

Was there any activity (before the child) that your wife enjoyed as an outlet?
(be it physical or craft related ) - perhaps there's a nonobvious way you could watch the baby for the night while she goes out to relax (i say nonobvious because you've said that she's already against consoling, so going out for the expressed purpose of relaxing from pent up anger/stress rather than "just because" may gain some distrust or annoyance )

Does she know that you go for counseling?  I know this will sound silly but I know for my parents, if my father was going for counseling, then my mother would just get more angry for a) sharing details with a stranger, and b) every day my dad goes out for consoling, it is a reminder that something is 'wrong' and thus revisiting all the reasons they are fighting in the first place even though she may have gotten over it weeks ago

From what you know of your wife, think back to before the newborn -- what were some of her more stressful moments (be it with you, at work, etc), and what were her coping mechanisms to deal with that?  Did she normally retreat until all was clear, did she normally take offensive stances, did she normally talk things out, etc ?  Or on a smaller scale, if the waiter brought her something wrong at a restaurant, did she argue with the waiter, talk it out calmly, or just quietly drink/eat the incorrect thing that she didn't order?  (though bigger scale examples are better for you to think of if you can).

and, finally, if it does come to divorce (if possible, save it as a last resort option given the presence of the child), be sure it's what you want and then lawyer up.  Even the friendliest of things with the best intentions of good faith can go badly as it gets more emotional.


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Sep 4, 2010)

#1
Whatever else you do - get a lawyer NOW.  Whether or not you solve your marital problems, if it comes to divorce you NEED legal advice on the matter.

#2
Go to counseling ALONE if she won't go with you.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

fba827 said:


> (going based solely on what is written here, as well have having no real experience that qualifies me to give actual advice ....)
> 
> 1) (as others have said) regarding the wife, i was also thinking about depression as i read that -- as you said, it did seem to pick up after the child was born.
> 2) the wife quit her job for the child and has no social circle, so there is the possibility that either
> ...



She's definitely angry, and says it's about me, but when I ask her directly, it's either something minute that doesn't warrant that level of animosity, or it's something irrational.  Maybe she resents not being at work, but when she was working, she'd always be complaining about the job.  We obviously have less money coming in, but neither of us is a big spender, and we both live within our means.  I usually pick up saturdays at my old job for the extra cash.  Saying this brings up a whole other issue between us: my Wife _insists_ on paying the bills, and taking care of anything financial.  But she just doesn't do it.  My cards get rejected, and I have to call the bank to transfer funds so I can buy food.  Not only is it a frustrating experience, it's extremely embarassing.



fba827 said:


> Was there any activity (before the child) that your wife enjoyed as an outlet?
> (be it physical or craft related ) - perhaps there's a nonobvious way you could watch the baby for the night while she goes out to relax (i say nonobvious because you've said that she's already against consoling, so going out for the expressed purpose of relaxing from pent up anger/stress rather than "just because" may gain some distrust or annoyance )



She love tennis, and I've never held her back from going, before or after the baby.







fba827 said:


> Does she know that you go for counseling?  I know this will sound silly but I know for my parents, if my father was going for counseling, then my mother would just get more angry for a) sharing details with a stranger, and b) every day my dad goes out for consoling, it is a reminder that something is 'wrong' and thus revisiting all the reasons they are fighting in the first place even though she may have gotten over it weeks ago



She's fine with it, it was actually her suggestion and I initially went just to make her happy.  After going for 6 months now, I've come to realize some issues of my own and are working on them.  I've made a lot of improvement, but if you were to ask my wife, it's not where the improvement really needs to be made (which, IMHO, again points to the fact that she needs help too).







fba827 said:


> From what you know of your wife, think back to before the newborn -- what were some of her more stressful moments (be it with you, at work, etc), and what were her coping mechanisms to deal with that?  Did she normally retreat until all was clear, did she normally take offensive stances, did she normally talk things out, etc ?  Or on a smaller scale, if the waiter brought her something wrong at a restaurant, did she argue with the waiter, talk it out calmly, or just quietly drink/eat the incorrect thing that she didn't order?  (though bigger scale examples are better for you to think of if you can).



She would initially shut down in a highly stressful situation, and then really go at it.  She's a procrastinator to the nth degree.  Pulls all-nighters whenever needed (and she's the one who gets herself into these all-nighter situations by procrastinating).

She would calmly talk to the waiter at times, other times retreat and just complain about it.

A few weeks ago, we went to a restaurant and they had taken her favorite appetizer off the menu -- something she was really looking forward to.  All we had ordered up to that point was two iced teas.

She complained that there was nothing on the menu she liked.  Instead of just getting up and leaving (leaving a few bucks on the table for the iced teas), which was my suggestion, she would rather just sit there and be unhappy the whole meal.  To top it off, her attitude rubbed off on the baby, so I was carrying a crying baby in a restaurant trying to calm her down.







fba827 said:


> and, finally, if it does come to divorce (if possible, save it as a last resort option given the presence of the child), be sure it's what you want and then lawyer up.  Even the friendliest of things with the best intentions of good faith can go badly as it gets more emotional.



Thanks.  A lot of guys tell me to do this.  It's really not what I want.


It's 10:45 am now, and I'm in the public library surfing the 'net, just trying to pass time.  Pretty depressing.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> #1
> Whatever else you do - get a lawyer NOW.  Whether or not you solve your marital problems, if it comes to divorce you NEED legal advice on the matter.



But what do I say to the guy now?  How much would this cost me?


Man in the Funny Hat said:


> #2
> Go to counseling ALONE if she won't go with you.



Already do, my man.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

Right now, my plan is to just stay away and hope that she misses me enough to call and try to work things out.  I'm too angry to go back and talk with her now, and she's locked me out of the condo anyway.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

A few weeks ago, I had resigned myself to us getting a divorce.  After attending the ren faire (see a few posts down), I decided to do everything I can to save this marriage.  I would still like to think I'm in that mindset.

When I was at the Ren Faire, I caught up with the guy who was my best man.  He's only a couple of years older than me, but he was married very shortly after high school because he got his girlfriend pregnant.  The two ended up getting divorced before the baby was old enough to ever remember them together.

Fast forward to the present day.

The mother never worked, all these years, living off of my best friends child support and her boyfriend.  The daughter is now 17, and just graduated high school.  She suddenly changed her mind about going to college, and spends her free time drinking and getting into trouble.  My friend believes his ex wife encouraged their daughter to put off attending college because in NY, apparently he'd still have to pay child support until their child goes to college.

While I know that my Wife is different from my friends' ex (my Wife would sooner lock our future daughter in the basement than let her go out and get drunk at 17), and would never try to live her life mooching off of others, my biggest fear, if I go through with divorcing her, is having my daughter develop social/emotional problems.


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## Viking Bastard (Sep 4, 2010)

And you don't think she'd have social/emotional problems if brought up in an unhappy marriage?

There's no simple solution here, but I've know too many depressed kids messed up by their parents decision to 'stay together for the kids'.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

Viking Bastard said:


> And you don't think she'd have social/emotional problems if brought up in an unhappy marriage?
> 
> There's no simple solution here, but I've know too many depressed kids messed up by their parents decision to 'stay together for the kids'.




I agree.  You're completely right.

The only solution I see is making it a happy marriage.  Which seems impossible.


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## Ghostwind (Sep 4, 2010)

I'm going through a divorce right now so I have a good perspective on things. From everything you have said about your wife, it sounds like textbook depression. She definitely needs to get some counseling, even if it is just her going.

I don't know the divorce laws in Illinois but you should definitely sit down and have a consultation with an attorney versed in family law. Most lawyers do not charge for an initial consultation. Make sure you understand what you are getting yourself into. I don't know if Illinois has alimony, but you could wind up paying her X dollars until she remarries. Then you have child support. Since she is the primary caregiver, you will be expected to pay child support unless you choose to go for sole legal custody. One more thing to consider (and this varies by state) is if you move out before anything is done legally, she could claim abandonment, which could hurt you in court regarding support, visitation, etc.

My situation is a little different than yours in that our divorce is amicable. We have agreed on joint legal custody with her being the primary. We are mostly in agreement regarding the division of assets/debts. Because of all of this, the attorney costs will likely only be around $900. If there is anything that will be contested, then the $$$ goes way up.

You will have people tell you to stay for the sake of your daughter. I did that for several years and it does not get easier. You will just become more unhappy unless your spouse is willing to change her behaviors in an effort to make the marriage work. You will have to ask yourself what is the price for your happiness? If you can find a way to be happy in your current state of affairs, then give it a go and see if you can make it work. But, after careful deliberation, if you decide that you cannot be happy anymore then don't be afraid to initiate things.

If you need to vent or talk, just PM me.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 4, 2010)

Ghostwind said:


> I'm going through a divorce right now so I have a good perspective on things. From everything you have said about your wife, it sounds like textbook depression. She definitely needs to get some counseling, even if it is just her going.
> 
> I don't know the divorce laws in Illinois but you should definitely sit down and have a consultation with an attorney versed in family law. Most lawyers do not charge for an initial consultation. Make sure you understand what you are getting yourself into. I don't know if Illinois has alimony, but you could wind up paying her X dollars until she remarries. Then you have child support. Since she is the primary caregiver, you will be expected to pay child support unless you choose to go for sole legal custody. One more thing to consider (and this varies by state) is if you move out before anything is done legally, she could claim abandonment, which could hurt you in court regarding support, visitation, etc.
> 
> ...



How would you approach her to suggest  she get some counseling?  Everything I've tried has failed.

BTW, sorry for misleading, I actually live in NJ.  The "Shermer, Illinois" was a joke, and now it's a very old joke (it's been a long time since I was active on these forums).  Update made. 

I don't know what to do about the abandonment issue.  Am I better off staying with her screaming at me, telling me to get out?  Or am I better off just leaving (for the baby's sake, much less hers, my own, and all the neighbors... our condo is a glorified apartment)?

I will be taking you up on the PMs.  Make sure your inbox has some space in the near future!  Thanks!

-----------

BTW, I'm posting from home right now.  I decided to stop in to get some clothes, so I would at least be able to wear something fresh tomorrow.  I was surprised to find the chain off the door, and I walked right in.  My wife was getting ready to go out with the baby, which might have been the reason for the chain off the door.  I said "I won't be in your way, I'm just here for some of my things".  Neither of us said a word to each other after that, and she walked out after just a few minutes.

The moment she left, I made sure she heard me locking and chaining the door with her still in the hallway.  That was proof enough to me (moments later) that I'm still extremely angry with her.  I know now it was an immature reaction.  Anyway, she left and I saw her drive away.

I deemed it "safe" to throw out some trash, do some dishes, and basically try to make it a bit more pleasant in the condo for her and the baby when they get home.  Now, I kind of regret doing that, because if my intent is for her to notice the things I do when I'm not around anymore, the impact of the things I do is lessened if they're actually done.  Oh well, it's not like I'm going to put the trash back now.

I took out the anniversary gift I got her, and displayed it on the dining room table.

Right about then, I noticed a text message from her.  It read:
 "What do you want?"
Me: I want you to call your friends and have dinner with them tonight.  It's been far too long since you've seen them, and they'd love to see the baby.  It would do you good to go out and socialize with some other people.  I know when I went to the Ren Faire and hung out with Matt for a few hours it was very refreshing and made me feel really good.

Her: I am outside now to talk to you

Me: I want it to work between us, but that's not going to happen right now.
There's too much anger, sadness, and resentment.
We need time apart.  If we are going to work, I need you to realize my value.

Her: goodbye for good

Her: good riddance

Me: (quoting good riddance): my point is proven.  
I'll still talk, but I don't think it's a good idea.

I still haven't heard back after that.

I don't know if I should stay here, or head back to my job (40 min drive).  I really don't think talking is what's best right now.  It will just lead to more hurt feelings.  Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know.


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## nedjer (Sep 4, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> I agree.  You're completely right.
> 
> The only solution I see is making it a happy marriage.  Which seems impossible.




The focus on you, self-isolation, cash control . . . There's possibly quite a lot to understand. Real good psychologist and strip-mining all available high quality data might help in a Plato's Cave kind of way.


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## Ghostwind (Sep 4, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> How would you approach her to suggest  she get some counseling?  Everything I've tried has failed.
> 
> I don't know what to do about the abandonment issue.  Am I better off staying with her screaming at me, telling me to get out?  Or am I better off just leaving (for the baby's sake, much less hers, my own, and all the neighbors... our condo is a glorified apartment)?
> 
> ...




Unless a lawyer advises you otherwise, my advice is to remain in the house no matter what. Taking things a step farther, if she decides that she wants to leave ask that your daughter remain with you in the house. If she is willing to do that, it shifts the abandonment issue onto her rather than you.

At this point, document everything. Save the text messages and answering machine messages if you can. You need to lay a foundation of showing that you are willing to try to work things out and that she is not. From what you have said so far, she has some control issues and likely blames you as the target of her unhappiness.


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## Morkul (Sep 5, 2010)

i was only married for a brief 3 years. got divorced in 2003 and have custody of my daughter who will turn ten in November...

i had a marital situation that was full of strife as well. honestly, children do not need to grow up around screaming and fighting. they absorb that negativity and, depending on their personality, either internalize it or eventually let it out on someone else...

before my divorce, i had an altercation with my ex in which i smashed the windshield of my own van (with my hands) while she was taking our daughter away. i went to jail with assault charges on her and my daughter, charges automatically pressed by the state of FL. got out of jail and she didnt even want our daughter, so i was granted custody by the state of FL. a few years ago, i decided i wanted to go to grad school, got into NCU at Chapel Hill, but my ex took me to court over it. needless to say, i lost the case and am chained to within 50 miles of my ex until my daughter is 18. funny thing is, at the time we went to court, my ex was $6000 behind on her child support and the magistrate still took her side. thats FL family law at work...

moral of my story: if your wife wants your daughter, she can get her easier than you can. and, depending on how they work family law cases in your state, she could have you by the balls for a long time to come, even after you are "divorced". i hope you have better luck than i did...

i would read up on family law and how your state handles situations involving custody. i would find out (A) what your chances are of getting custody, because it sounds like you want your daughter to live with you and (B) whether or not your state allows the custodial parent to move away from the non-custodial parent (for a better job or to further your education). i wanted so much to get my daughter out of this area and go get my Master's degree. if i just take her, i will be arrested for kidnapping my own child, which is total insanity...


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## Fast Learner (Sep 5, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> I deemed it "safe" to throw out some trash, do some dishes, and basically try to make it a bit more pleasant in the condo for her and the baby when they get home.  Now, I kind of regret doing that, because if my intent is for her to notice the things I do when I'm not around anymore, the impact of the things I do is lessened if they're actually done.




It sounds like your situation is past this point already, but just for future reference: that doesn't work. 

It doesn't work with roommates, it doesn't work with girlfriends or boyfriends, and it doesn't work with wives or husbands. Once a housework equilibrium (or any other kind) is obtained, choosing to not do them doesn't make the other person recognize the effort you've been putting in, it just makes them unhappy that you're not doing it now. They've already come to terms with the idea (right or wrong) that what you do and what they do is a fair trade. I say this from much experience.

On your marriage, if there's still an opportunity to salvage it and you want to try but the other person won't see a counselor, an option that sometimes works is a good relationship book -- tell her you're reading it and you'd like her to read it, too. If she'll give it a shot, you may be able to do your own counseling, at least of sorts. Even if she won't read it, it may still give you some good ideas.

A few recommendations:

[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Love-Languages-Secret-That-Lasts/dp/0802473156/]The 5 Love Languages: The Secret to Love That Lasts[/ame]


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Love-You-Want-Anniversary/dp/0805087001/]Getting the Love You Want: A Guide for Couples[/ame]


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Centering-Art-Intimacy-Handbook-Relationships/dp/0671767194/]Centering and the Art of Intimacy Handbook[/ame]


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Two-Step-Eileen-McCann/dp/0802130321/]The Two-Step, the Dance of Intimacy[/ame] 
(better for a relationship that's in a little better shape than where you seem to be now, but great once you're trying to figure out why you keep fighting)


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## nedjer (Sep 5, 2010)

Please get more top quality information and equip yourself to set your own agenda


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Sep 5, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> But what do I say to the guy now? How much would this cost me?



You say to the lawyer, "I am faced with the _possibility_ of needing to divorce my wife.  I hope to work things out but I need legal advice in case it doesn't.  What will that cost me?"


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## Jack7 (Sep 6, 2010)

A lot of people have given good advice.

Here's my personal experience.

A couple of years ago the wife and I were both considering divorce. Well, she was anyways, but I consider divorce morally and religiously anathema. Nevertheless she seemed determined about it and after a bunch of fighting and a lot of frustration I was finally to the point of giving up myself. Almost.

Finally one night I woke her up about three in the morning and told her we were either gonna have a really good marriage, or no marriage at all. I told her if she wanted to sty in the marriage she must fight and prove it. I didn't blame or push her, but I let her know there was no other choices and I was resolute.

This began a long period of reassessing and changing our marriage. Now it is excellent. Probably in the best state ever, up to and including our sexual relationship. At the time we had been married 14 years and had two children.

At that point, and our problems slowly developed over a two year period our financial, romantic, sexual, and personal relationship (with each other) was horrible and looking back on it now, sorta shameful (compared to what it should have been). 

I can also tell you, as others have either said or hinted at, after childbirth, many women undergo dramatic hormonal and psychological changes. My wife was no exception. That's something you just have to be patient about, and sweat it out, as a man. I was terrifically sexually frustrated. After the birth she went back on birth control. We later found out that the chemicals (the formula) in the birth control were causing all types of hormonal and mood havoc for her, including depressing her sexual appetite. You might want to investigate this if it is the case with you. After she went off birth control, her mood and desires stabilized and eventually returned to normal.

However, personally, the tide turned for us when I demanded changes on both her part, and promised them on my part. Thus equal effort and work. But then again our marriage problems were at a far different point in our marriage than is the case with you guys.

I can also tell you this though, financial problems exacerbate other problems. Solve those problems, as a first step, and they will make solving other problems easier. I also agree with those who have said to expand your social circle, and hers as well.

I don't know your wife, so it may be an impossible situation. But it may very well not be. You'll never know unless you try.

But what you really need is a plan. Develop a plan of what problems you'll investigate first, what problems you'll try and solve first, what problems can wait, and what problems will be solved in the long run.

Without a good plan of investigation and procedure, it's very hard to achieve anything in life, cause you don't really know where you're going, what you want to achieve, how to go about it, or what your exact objectives are. A good plan can help you to come to know these factors, and knowing is half the battle. I say that jokingly, but it's true. Sit down with your wife, in a non-confrontational manner, and without taking ego insult at any of the remarks she levels at you, tell her you love her (if you do, and it sounds like you do, you're making an effort), love your child, and ask her what she really wants, and really wants from you. You'd be surprised the good this can do for one's psyche, you and hers. She may realize that you really care and are willing to work, you will get a firmer idea of her real thought processes. But you have to be firm and stay with it until she really speaks heart (assuming she will and her hormonal state is stable). But I do agree with this also. Don't raise your children in an environment of tension, distrust, and resentment. Regardless of whether you reconcile or not, don't let that be the child's experience of your relationship with each other. And tell her: you won't downplay her or be disrespectful of her, and she won't of you. Demand equal respect. It's amazing what simply being polite to one another will accomplish. That and showing love unselfishly.

This would be my process:

1. What problems are physical, chemical, biological?
2. What problems are psychological?
3. What problems are otherwise?
4. What solutions are possible and worth pursuing?
5. What can be done immediately?
6. What needs to be done over time?

If you're a religious fellow, I'd also pray. That helped me and my wife out a lot.

One thing people overlook about prayer, is that it's not just a request from God for aid, though in this case it can be, but it's also a way of vocalizing and therefore re-analyzing in a different way, mindset, and psychological and spiritual attitude, the problems that you face. So to me prayer is also a form of analysis and problem solving. Getting down on your knees also takes the focus off of you in an unselfish manner, and therefore you can look at your situation more objectively, instead of being worried about what you want at that exact moment. So it helps to develop a more long term view of a situation or event. Because you're probably not gonna solve this overnight. This may not be the case, but it may also take a couple of years of slow turnaround and steady but incremental improvement. In any case let her know what you want out of the marriage, what you think makes a good marriage, and know what she wants. Neither one of you may have nay idea of what the other really thinks and expects. As a matter of fact, I'm willing to bet that's the case. You're drifting cause neither of you know what port you're sailing for, and aren't steering by any method other than dead-reckoning. What you both need is a compass, and a chart. Know where you're going.

And that's my experience. Don't know if it helped you or not, but I'm pulling for you guys.

In any case, good luck and Godspeed. I'll pray for you both too.

And if I were you I'd relax a little, have some faith. Things went a lot better for us the moment I decided to stop vacillating, had some faith it would be okay, and started to relax. A good athlete can't perform well if he's constantly tense and upset. You can't be a good husband tense and on-edge. You're working against yourself. I know it's easy to say, and hard to do, but force yourself to relax and have a little faith. Be optimistic, rather than pessimistic and uncertain. Optimism is infectious. On the other hand so is pessimism and uncertainty.

Relax and focus on what you can do. 
What you can't do, you can't do, but maybe in a month or so, you can.

So, Godspeed to you guys again.


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## jaerdaph (Sep 6, 2010)

Having been in this situation many years ago, I just want to say that "staying together for the sake of the kid(s)" is probably the worst advice and the worst decision you could take or make in the long run. 

Sorry to hear about your troubles and I wish you luck and eventual happiness and serenity.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 6, 2010)

I can't offer too much advice - my wife and I have had plenty of ups and downs, but never to this level - but I want to ask about something nobody has mentioned so far:

What is your (both you and your wife) level of family support?  Does she talk to her mother or a sister?  Is your relationship with any of her family OK such that maybe you could them ask for a bit of outside perspective on the situation based on their knowledge of your wife?  Maybe they can get through where you cannot.


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## Jack7 (Sep 6, 2010)

> What is your (both you and your wife) level of family support? Does she talk to her mother or a sister? Is your relationship with any of her family OK such that maybe you could them ask for a bit of outside perspective on the situation based on their knowledge of your wife? Maybe they can get through where you cannot.




An astute observation.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 8, 2010)

Again, thanks to all of your input and advice, everybody.







Thornir Alekeg said:


> What is your (both you and your wife) level of family support?  Does she talk to her mother or a sister?  Is your relationship with any of her family OK such that maybe you could them ask for a bit of outside perspective on the situation based on their knowledge of your wife?  Maybe they can get through where you cannot.



I have a pretty good support system, if I ever call on it.  I am usually too ashamed or embarassed to admit that anything is wrong.

My Wife has nobody.  Both parents passed long before I met her, she has an estranged brother, and a very elderly aunt.


Update:  We really, really had it out Saturday night.  She had the idea that, after talking for a few hours, we could go out to dinner and just try to relax.  I didn't think it was a good idea, but went along anyway.  Big mistake.

We ended up fighting in the restaurant, and before it became a big scene, I just walked out.  It was cold and windy out, and I just started walking home (about 6-10 miles from the restaurant).  I only left the car there because my Wife had the baby.  If it had been just her and I, I would have taken the car at that point and left her there.

I ended up getting picked up by the cops about 2.5 miles into my trek home.  The cop took down my information and drove me to my car, wishing me the best.  It was tough.  I went home to find a chained door, and just turned around and left.  

A few hours later, we were texting each other (I prefer this to talking when I'm angry... you can formulate thoughts better and look back on exactly what you've said).  Eventually, we agreed to do a therapy technique called "as if."  "As if" encourages you to treat each other "as if" you've just met and are trying to impress each other.

I don't know if this will work, but it has been a much better life for the both of us, starting on Sunday.  I only hope it stays like this.


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## Umbran (Sep 8, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> The only solution I see is making it a happy marriage.  Which seems impossible.




If I may - this is not a solution.  A happy marriage is not a panacea that fixes things that are unhealthy within people.

A happy marriage is a goal, it is a result, what may come from people who care about each other and support each other.  You and your wife both seem to have individual problems - the happy marriage may come about if you team up and address the roots of those problems, not the other way around.



krunchyfrogg said:


> I have a pretty good support system, if I ever call on it.  I am usually too ashamed or embarassed to admit that anything is wrong.




My wife sometimes performs with a dance troupe.  At one point, she did a piece with her snake - a 5' long ball python.  Now, working with animals has risks, as we saw one night - as she's performing, the snake took a huge leak all over the stage, piddling everywhere, almost hitting the front row of the audience.

My wife, of course, was mortified.  But somehow she finished her number without missing a beat, we got a mop to clean the stage between acts, and the show went on.  She learned a very simple lesson - *you cannot die from embarrassment*.    



> My Wife has nobody.  Both parents passed long before I met her, she has an estranged brother, and a very elderly aunt.




That is not good.  See below.



> "As if" encourages you to treat each other "as if" you've just met and are trying to impress each other.
> 
> I don't know if this will work, but it has been a much better life for the both of us, starting on Sunday.  I only hope it stays like this.




This may be useful.  In the middle of stress, it can be devilishly easy to remember all the things that are annoying to you, and hard to see those things that brought you together in the first place.

But let us be clear - this will not address the root problems you two have.  It may help alleviate the acute difficulties between you for the moment, but the underlying sources of stress are still there.  Eventually, they'll need attention, or you'll just wind up back where you are now.

For example, she's still isolated.  It is not physically possible for you and a baby to be an entire world for her.  She needs to have a world of her own to interact with.  I don't know how you'll find one, but it sounds like she needs one, badly.

If your "as if" works, and you see some caring grow again between you, maybe you can address this - help her find a mother's support group, hunt until you find some form of day-care you can afford that gives her some personal freedom.  As you do your "as if", get out where you have to interact with the rest of the human race.


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## Jack7 (Sep 8, 2010)

> A happy marriage is a goal, it is a result, what may come from people who care about each other and support each other. You and your wife both seem to have individual problems - the happy marriage may come about if you team up and address the roots of those problems, not the other way around.




I very much agree with this.




> She learned a very simple lesson - you cannot die from embarrassment.




And this. But your marriage could die from being too embarrassed to try what might work. Never be afraid to do whatever is necessary in the pursuit of what is good. If it costs you a little pride, that's a price worth paying if it works.

The marriage, if you and she want it to work, is the important thing. The work to get there, that's the price of doing business.




> I don't know if this will work, but it has been a much better life for the both of us, starting on Sunday. I only hope it stays like this.




Sometimes all hell breaks loose before things change for the better. And sometimes, ironically, that is very helpful. I've been there. And like you I preferred written communications til things improved. Kept things defused while we were going through our arguing stage. And after all, I am a writer, and I don't like arguing to escalate matters. Only arguing if it will actually solve a problem.

But remember, _*experimenting with different possible solutions is part of the process.*_ Not all will work, and maybe not all will fail.  _But she's trying to experiment too._ *Believe it or not this is a good sign on her part*. Shows she's trying. I wouldn't dismiss this sign.

I'll suggest an experiment to you that might work. When you get together for the first few weeks or months after your big blow-up don't talk at all about what's wrong with your marriage. And what you don't like about each other or your situation. Only talk about what you like about each other, and what you like about your marriage. 

It's a little bit like a ball player who has struck out several times at bat. If each time he goes up to the plate he's thinking about what he did wrong last time, and about striking out, chances are he will again. Instead he should think about the last time he hit well, and what he was doing to hit well. And do those things.

Next time you guys are up at the plate, see if you can both agree to swing like you mean to hit well (just not each other), rather than to strike out. It works if you can make it a habit. Concentrate on what you're doing right, not what you're doing wrong.

Then later on, once things cool and emotions are controlled, then calmly and reasonably discuss your problems. Then you can do that objectively and without concentrating on the problems like they're all you have. You'll already be in the habit of hitting base-runs. You can then discuss your marital problems like they are just problems in your marriage, rather than discussing your marriage like it is the problem.

Anyways, good luck and Godspeed to you both.


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## Umbran (Sep 8, 2010)

Jack7 said:


> It's a little bit like a ball player who has struck out several times at bat. If each time he goes up to the plate he's thinking about what he did wrong last time, and about striking out, chances are he will again. Instead he should think about the last time he hit well, and what he was doing to hit well. And do those things.




I would like to add something.  There's an aspect of, "Whatever you do, do not think about an elephant," to this.  Both of you have been hurt, and maybe have been unintentionally hurting each other for a while now.  That's going to mean you both have habits - trains of thought, automatic reactions.  These things are not apt to work in your favor right now.

You may have to consciously choose to avoid such habits, to stop yourself, shut your mouth, and think for a moment.  

Something that might help here (a trick that's good on message boards as well, come to think of it) - whenever something is said that stings, stop, and consider if there could possibly be any way to interpret it that stings less.  Take everything said in its best possible interpretation, rather than its worst.  Even if it goes against your immediate reaction, _assume your partner is not actively trying to hurt you_.


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## Fast Learner (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm glad to hear that the "as if" technique has brought you a measure of peace. I used it in one relationship and the results were fascinating.

The authors of the book _After the Affair_ (a great book on relationships regardless of whether there was ever an affair or not) points out something that I'd never considered and that I've found to be incredibly useful ever since.

They point out that whatever traits your partner has that attracted you in the first place, the flip side of these very traits often cause great difficulties in the relationship.

For example, you might have fallen for your partner because s/he's incredibly spontaneous, bringing joyful surprises again and again. Once the relationship is established, though, while you're still enjoying the spontaneity you find yourself frustrated that s/he never seems willing to sit down and plan out your finances or figure out your Christmas plans or what have you. _Of course_ s/he doesn't want to do those things, s/he's incredibly spontaneous; the flip side of spontaneity is not making plans!

One of the exercises in the book is to make a list of all of the things that attracted (and attract) you to your partner, and then for each one write down what the flip sides of that trait might be. Then take a look a those flip sides and see how closely they match the things you're frustrated about in the relationship. In the two different relationships I've done this exercise with, both of us found stunning matches.

From there you can learn to first accept that if your partner is X in a way that you like, s/he's very likely the flip side of X in a way you don't like. With this knowledge you can tackle the actual problems, all the while recognizing that some of your issues are things that you'll just need to accept on some level if you're also going to have the enjoyable side of the trait.

It's not a panacea, but I highly, highly recommend this exercise for anyone in a relationship that has some stress (visible or lurking beneath the covers).


[ame=http://www.amazon.com/After-Affair-Healing-Rebuilding-Unfaithful/dp/0060928174/]After the Affair[/ame]


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## Deset Gled (Sep 9, 2010)

One piece of advice I can give you is to try and look at thing as your wife sees them.  Some of the things you've said so far sound very well intentioned, but will not seem that way to your wife.

I'm going to go through a few of the events you've related to us and show you how they (may) seem to your wife.  This generally means spinning them to make you look like as big of a jerk as possible.  You may find this pretty insulting.  If it upsets you, or if you just don't take heavy critisism very well, please don't read any further.  If you want to see how you (may) look through your wife's eyes, please consider the following examples:



krunchyfrogg said:


> I'm posting from home right now. ...  I said "I won't be in your way, I'm just here for some of my things".
> 
> The moment she left, I made sure she heard me locking and chaining the door with her still in the hallway.  That was proof enough to me (moments later) that I'm still extremely angry with her.  I know now it was an immature reaction.  Anyway, she left and I saw her drive away.




Your wife doesn't see you as immature.  She sees you as a liar, a thief, and potentially being criminally negligent.  You said you were going to pick up "some things" and you took her home!  Even worse, you locked your own baby out of the house!  What would have happened if you wife ran out of food or clean clothes for the baby?  How could your wife properly take care of the kid when she's locked out of the place where all the supplies are?  What would have happened if she had no place to stay for the night?  

{On a note not coming from you wife's POV: this is the type of thing that is seriously going to bite you in the ass if you actually do end up getting a divorce.}



> I deemed it "safe" to throw out some trash, do some dishes, and basically try to make it a bit more pleasant in the condo for her and the baby when they get home.  Now, I kind of regret doing that, because if my intent is for her to notice the things I do when I'm not around anymore, the impact of the things I do is lessened if they're actually done.  Oh well, it's not like I'm going to put the trash back now.
> 
> I took out the anniversary gift I got her, and displayed it on the dining room table.




Why does a woman who has to stay home all day with a baby (doing all of the clothes cleaning, bottle cleaning, diaper changing, preparing food for herself and the baby, etc etc) care if you straightened up the house a little?  Her entire life is a continuous string of taking care of your child from one day to the next.  Doing a load of dishes is not going make her life notably better.  On the surface you're being insensitive to her needs.  But going out of the way to force her to acknowledge what you do makes things that much worse.



> Me: I want you to call your friends and have dinner with them tonight.  It's been far too long since you've seen them, and they'd love to see the baby.  It would do you good to go out and socialize with some other people.  I know when I went to the Ren Faire and hung out with Matt for a few hours it was very refreshing and made me feel really good.




You start off sounding like you're being nice and telling your wife to take a night off.  Unfortunately, she still has to take care of the baby.  You cannot simply hang out and socialize while you're still in charge of an infant.  If you seriously meant to make things easier for your wife, you needed to offer to take the baby (or get a babysitter, or arrange for the baby to be dropped off at a relative's house, etc).  To tell her that she should take the baby along on her night off makes it seem like you don't value the work she does when she cares for the baby.  In her eyes, you see her as nothing but a nanny to care for your offspring.  The fact that you remind her of the time you spent with friends (without the baby) and how great of a time you had only makes things worse.



> Her: I am outside now to talk to you
> 
> Me: I want it to work between us, but that's not going to happen right now.
> There's too much anger, sadness, and resentment.
> We need time apart.  If we are going to work, I need you to realize my value.




Your wife offered to stop and talk things through with you.  You turned her down because you decided there was no value in it.  You have just told your wife that you are no longer interested in making things better.  You may claim otherwise, but this action speaks louder than most of your words.

Also, you seem to be really big on this issue of not being "valued" in the relationship, but the only thing you've mentioned doing so far in this regard are basic chores.  Your value in a relationship is measured by the happiness that you give the other person, not the deeds you do.  By continuing to focus on what you feel you deserve, you're only going to push your wife farther away.



> ... I just walked out. ...  I only left the car there because my Wife had the baby. If it had been just her and I, I would have taken the car at that point and left her there.
> 
> I ended up getting picked up by the cops...




If you told this to your wife, it is the same as flat out telling her you care nothing for her and only care about the baby.  That is not an easy statement to take back.  Also, you need to realize that walking home in the cold does not make you a martyr; it just makes you stubborn.

{I also can't help but wonder: why did the cops pick you up, anyway?  Is walking around the streets of New Jersey a crime now?}

---

Hopefully, this can give you some insight into how things looks from your wife's POV.  I apologize if I have been overly hurtful, but I believe it is valuable to realize how some of these things look from the outside.  If you find this more painful than hurtful, PM me and I will delete the post from the thread.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 11, 2010)

Great post, Deset Gled.  The only thing I would change is your own apology for possibly being hurtful and offering to delete the post.

Krunchyfrogg, I expect what Deset Gled posted made you uncomfortable, and that is to be expected, but if you cannot face up to what it says, you will have little hope of working through the problems in your relationship.  Any therapist will probably try to bring out these same things and if you avoid them, perhaps out of embarassment or from trying to make yourself look better, then you won't be getting what you really need from any form of therapy.  

At some point very soon, when the two of you are talking and not already angry with each other, gently ask your wife one simple question: "what do you need?"  Listen to her answer.  Don't respond, don't start formulating a response in your head, just listen and think about what she says.


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## Mark Chance (Sep 13, 2010)

My thoughts about marriage from a man's perspective.


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## krunchyfrogg (Sep 14, 2010)

Thornir Alekeg said:


> Krunchyfrogg, I expect what Deset Gled posted made you uncomfortable, and that is to be expected, but if you cannot face up to what it says, you will have little hope of working through the problems in your relationship.  Any therapist will probably try to bring out these same things and if you avoid them, perhaps out of embarassment or from trying to make yourself look better, then you won't be getting what you really need from any form of therapy.



I know that I have plenty of faults as well, and it's interesting to see things in the worst possible light.  It does make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but that's actually a good thing.  Thank you.

I know I need to face my own demons, and I know I can't change her.  I just wish things were nicer.

Today, I offered to turn off my phone when it's not needed (work/alarm clock) so that I'd be ridding myself of a distraction (I have been diagnosed with ADD), after forgetting that she changed the date on a visit to the pediatrician (I had it written down for Tuesday, but it was changed to Thursday, I'm not sure when).  Unfortunately, I can't get out of work early on either day to go with them.


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## Jack7 (Sep 14, 2010)

> I know that I have plenty of faults as well, and it's interesting to see things in the worst possible light. It does make me feel a bit uncomfortable, but that's actually a good thing. Thank you.
> 
> I know I need to face my own demons, and I know I can't change her. I just wish things were nicer.





It's a brave and honest man who can face his own faults realistically and pragmatically. Not only for his own good, but for the good of others. Nothing to be ashamed at there. Work on what you can do to control and improve yourself, and allow her to do the same for herself.

With a little time and patience with each other things can change. Neither of you will ever be perfect, but then again neither of you need to be to make a marriage work. You just have to be kind to each other and improve over time. You'll both make mistakes, be honest about that, but when you're doing more right than wrong then that won't matter as much.

Keep working at it and ask her to help you improve, and tell her you'll help her improve, but in a kind and patient, rather than a hostile and demanding fashion. And compliment what she does right, and encourage more of what works right between you.

And when you're not working (as in your job), then take her and the child out and have some fun as a family. Fun kills anxiety, fear, and anger. As a matter of fact have fun at home. And with just her. Relax some. This won't be cured overnight.

But fun, kindness, patience, politeness, optimism, love.
They cure a host of ills. And that's just the truth of it.

Godspeed and good luck to ya both, and to your child.


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## Ghostwind (Nov 17, 2010)

Any updates on this?

My own divorce became official on November 3rd. I just found out yesterday.


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## krunchyfrogg (Nov 19, 2010)

Ghostwind said:


> Any updates on this?
> 
> My own divorce became official on November 3rd. I just found out yesterday.



Well, we're trying to work it out.  We have good days and bad days.  She actually cracked a little bit and agreed to see a therapist with me, it's now just a matter of finding one who's on my plan and getting a time where we can both make it.

Thanks again everybody.


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## nedjer (Nov 19, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> Well, we're trying to work it out.  We have good days and bad days.  She actually cracked a little bit and agreed to see a therapist with me, it's now just a matter of finding one who's on my plan and getting a time where we can both make it.
> 
> Thanks again everybody.




decided to go the extra mile  please choose a therapist with care.


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## Ghostwind (Nov 19, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> Well, we're trying to work it out.  We have good days and bad days.  She actually cracked a little bit and agreed to see a therapist with me, it's now just a matter of finding one who's on my plan and getting a time where we can both make it.
> 
> Thanks again everybody.




Glad to hear that things may be salvageable. As suggested, choose a good therapist and try to always go into counseling with an open mind. Hopefully you and your wife can meet in the middle and fix the things that threaten to separate you.


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## krunchyfrogg (Dec 29, 2010)

Well guys, I really want to thank you for all the kind words and advice.

She's refused to see a therapist with me, everything is my fault, and she's done absolutely nothing wrong.  

I'll spare all the details, but I don't think it'll work.  I've been staying and sleeping at my job for the past three days, and I don't plan on going back.  Every night, she'll text me, which seems to be a starting point to reaching out, but it quickly diminishes into a fight, whether it's on the phone or through texting.

I'm unwelcome in my own home.

I miss my baby like crazy (she's 15 months now).

I actually look forward to an official divorce.  I'll be able to spend time with my little girl without the wife being there to ruin it.  I'll be able to spend time getting to know myself better, as I've never had the opportunity to actually live on my own for more than a month (my parents moved shortly after I finished college, and I kept the apartment I grew up in... within a month, somehow, the woman I eventually married had moved into the apartment... I still don't know how that happened).

All that being said, if she reached out an wanted to try to reconcile, I'd be back in an instant.  I don't want my daughter growing up without two parents.  I have reached out every day, via phone calls to my wife and attempted to work things out.  I just haven't backed down like I usually do and take the blame for everything.  I refuse to be taken advantage of.  I just need her to try to fix her end of things, and not think I'm to blame for it all.


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## DumbPaladin (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm sorry to hear that your marriage failed, Mr. Frogg.  But as the pretty well-rounded product of a single-parent household caused by a divorce, I can say with certainty certain things:

1) Kids, when older, get smart enough to realize when their married parents do nothing but make each other miserable, and in no way does it benefit the kid to know this, nor improve their upbringing.

2) No parent in a divorce is automatically "absent" -- it is their actions that cause this.  If you want to stay involved in your child's life, choose to do so.  If you're being prevented from doing so, you hire a lawyer ASAP and file as many lawsuits as you have to -- up to and including filing for full or physical custody -- and you make sure that you're there.  If you find someone else to settle down with later on, you make sure that doesn't distract from your agenda of spending time with your child.

3) A child with two homes can still be a happy and successful child.   A child who hears bad things about Dad from Mom, and doesn't hear bad things about Mom from Dad, eventually comes to resent the badmouther, so make sure you don't ever do this.

My point: Your daughter won't grow up "without two parents" unless either you or your wife decide to pull out and give up entirely.


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## Umbran (Dec 29, 2010)

I'm so sorry to hear that things aren't working out.  

A note for you - in trying to reconcile, text messages and IM are a horrible way to communicate.  All nuance of tone and expression is lost.  Phone calls are better, but not great.  Meeting in a public place (like a busy coffee shop) is better - you get all the nuances, but there's social pressure to keep things from getting to shouting.

As for your child - if patching up isn't an option, that's a matter for a court to decide, I'm afraid.  I wish you all the luck available for that.


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## krunchyfrogg (Dec 29, 2010)

Umbran said:


> I'm so sorry to hear that things aren't working out.



Thanks



Umbran said:


> A note for you - in trying to reconcile, text messages and IM are a horrible way to communicate.  All nuance of tone and expression is lost.  Phone calls are better, but not great.  Meeting in a public place (like a busy coffee shop) is better - you get all the nuances, but there's social pressure to keep things from getting to shouting.



I know you're right here.  The problem is that she won't agree to meeting with me, and often won't even pick up the phone.  If I ever did get to convince her to meet me, she has no problem escalating a situation and shouting in public, which is just too embarassing for me to handle (read back a few pages to where I left a restaurant and just started walking home).  Plus, she has nobody to leave the baby with, so my little girl would be there too.


Umbran said:


> As for your child - if patching up isn't an option, that's a matter for a court to decide, I'm afraid.  I wish you all the luck available for that.



Well, I'm not abusive to my Wife, so I'm sure it would eventually turn into a weekend or every other weekend thing with me and her, as that's what seems to happen 99% of the time (at least, from what I can tell).


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## Fast Learner (Dec 30, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> Well, I'm not abusive to my Wife, so I'm sure it would eventually turn into a weekend or every other weekend thing with me and her, as that's what seems to happen 99% of the time (at least, from what I can tell).




It varies by state, but yeah, you'll have automatic visitation rights. In my case it was one weeknight a week and every other weekend, and alternating holidays.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 30, 2010)

krunchyfrogg said:


> Well, I'm not abusive to my Wife, so I'm sure it would eventually turn into a weekend or every other weekend thing with me and her, as that's what seems to happen 99% of the time (at least, from what I can tell).




Don't assume.  Get a lawyer.  Now.  Even if your wife doesn't become vindictive, an aggressive attorney on her side can screw you quickly and hard.  And if she does decide to get vindictive . . .

Get a lawyer.  Now. Please!


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## Janx (Dec 30, 2010)

Based on Kf's description of difficulty with her...

I second the get a lawyer. She's already hard to talk to, that spells negotiation trouble


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## Ghostwind (Dec 30, 2010)

It's time to have a consultation with a lawyer. This comes from the voice of experience. Tkae the initiative Monday and make a phone call to schedule an appt. with a lawyer who specializes in family law in your state.


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