# Ampersand: 2011 releases officially gutted



## captainspud (Jan 12, 2011)

From today's Ampersand (emphasis mine) :


> *D&D RPG Product Release Updates*
> 
> Despite the best laid plans, sometimes we make changes to the  D&D product release schedule. Usually this happens well before we’ve  communicated our plans, but sometimes we must make changes to schedules  that have already been announced. That happens to be the case we have  here.
> 
> ...



So barring further announcements, the ONLY book releases this year are Heroes of Shadow (APR), Shadowfell (JUN), and the Monster Vault: TttNV (JUN).

Adjectives fail me.


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## Pour (Jan 12, 2011)

This is going to be a very dark year...


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## Dungeoneer (Jan 12, 2011)

Operating under the unlikely premise that WotC likes to sell books and make money, I predict that they will announce other products in the near future to fill the holes in the schedule.


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## Maccwar (Jan 13, 2011)

Yes folks, the sky is officially falling.

I had just expected the products to be pushed back, which may yet turn out to be the case but it does look like WoTC are slowing 4e support to a trickle.


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## jbear (Jan 13, 2011)

But what we really want to know is why. Why have they been removed? 

The only thing I can think of is they have decided to do something about the criticism received about the content being produced in the DDi magazines and plan to release the missing books through there instead. 

I guess there is naught to do but wait and see.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 13, 2011)

While this means fewer books, we plan to deliver just as much great content for players this year through other formats, including board games, accessories, and *digital offerings*

I bet that stuff will wind up in Dragon/Dungeon and it'll be one way they cut back costs since all of that material should already be written. Add in that they're not doing a compiled PDF every month and hey, they can just throw what they want against the wall to see what sticks.


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## Aegeri (Jan 13, 2011)

Disappointing. I really hope we see something being released and soon to bring excitement back up


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## Obryn (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow, yeah.  I have to concur - this actually is a "sky is falling" sort of moment.

I have to say, this ...

"we plan to deliver just as much great content for players this year through other formats, including board games, accessories, and digital offerings."

...does not inspire confidence.  I am not going to buy board games or most "accessories" to enhance my D&D game.  That's what books are for.

The digital offerings thing is probably a gross exaggeration, judging by their actual recent track record.  If we were going to see a surge in digital offerings, I would have thought we'd start to see something by now, given that these other books have simply vanished.  I remain super, super skeptical.

-O


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## Truename (Jan 13, 2011)

What a disappointing column. I was hoping that the hole in the schedule was due to some surprise in the works--and if not, then I was hoping there would at least be some explanation. Sadly, Ampersand just gave me what I've come to expect from it... spin, spin, spin, with very little real communication.

I did think it was interesting that the reason HoS was delayed was because of a switch from softcover to hardcover. I presume this means that the softcover books weren't as successful (or profitable?) as they wanted.


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## Doc Eldritch (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow..this almost sounds like they are pulling back from an RPG market slowly, and wanting to focus more effort on related areas, such as boardgames tied to an RPG "name".

Perhaps a bit early to tell, but NOT a good sign and the article does not inspire hope.  Feels like WotC is seriously dropping the ball here, though only time will tell for sure.  I know that I personally, have little interest in individual articles and would rather see a compilation for Dragon/Dungeon.  I mean, a magazine, by definition, is a compilation of articles!  Not an individual article here and there under a brand name.

The missing books are truly a shame, as they seemed more interesting that what was left on the lineup.  And with no word as to WHY things were changed so suddenly, it leaves a lot of doubt as to what WotC intends for possible future books.


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## Droogie128 (Jan 13, 2011)

Perhaps Essentials didn't do as well as they thought, and they need to change directions again? I liked most of what appeared in there, but it's just a thought.


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm okay with going with individual articles rather than compiled zines, but it does seem to be an odd choice since it can't take very long to make those compiled zines. I can't imagine they're gaining much from this, but eh...maybe... (and that does cast that previous poll in a new light!). 

As long as I can keep going back and referencing the old articles, I'm okay with it. It's not a big change.

I'm okay with ditching the plastic minis. I never did think they were a very strong idea. Though I do feel for those folks who loved 'em. 

I'm weirdly OK with the schedule gap. Sure, it sucks that some books were dropped, but whatever, I can keep playing D&D (or not) or whatever. Maybe they'll use this gap to get the CB and the Compendium fixed.  Maybe I'll give the VT a spin and see what I can see. 

However, I see something a little weirder lurking at the edges here. 

I see them using the sales data from the next few months to judge if they need to be printing many books at all. 

"Board games and Fortune Cards and the DDI and boxed sets sell like hotcakes! Do we really want to keep selling books to places where shoplifters can steal them and pirates can pirate them!?!?!?!?!" 

That's rampant speculation, so take it with a heap of salt. 

I do find it sad, really, that they can't tell us _wtf happened_. I don't even.


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## captainspud (Jan 13, 2011)

Speaking as someone who has precious few opportunities to actually _play_ D&D (my groups are either long-term but sporadic, or short-lived and inevitably collapse), my enjoyment of this hobby comes largely through getting new materials to browse and theory-build with. I basically consume D&D releases like a magazine. It's not how I'd like it, but it's how it is and up to now it's kept me happy.

This news basically _does_ kill the game for me this year. I get nothing to read in January, February, or March, and then nothing again in May, and then finally nothing for July through December. I am not a participant in the D&D hobby for ten months out of 2011.

I am completely depressed by this announcement, and that's before I even start thinking about the omen this strikes vis-à-vis the game's health.

Ugh.


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## TarionzCousin (Jan 13, 2011)

This is more disappointing than only getting one present for Xmas and having it break on the day after (which just happened to me recently).


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## Aegeri (Jan 13, 2011)

I am genuinely wondering how long 4th edition has now.


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## Mithreinmaethor (Jan 13, 2011)

After reading that I have a feeling that we will see most of the material we would have seen in the books coming out as DDi content. Just the feeling I got from reading that.


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## caudor (Jan 13, 2011)

All I could do after reading this was stare into the screen and blink.

My optimism is starting to fade.  I was OK with delays and schedule shuffling because I thought it meant they were planning to spring something cool on us.

So what has happened to cause them to pick apart the 2011 schedule and leave us wondering why?  Something big I suspect.

For the first time in a long time, I'm starting to get worried about D&D


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 13, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> I am genuinely wondering how long 4th edition has now.



Yeah, between this and the 5e playtest masquerading as a collectible cards "add-on" - it might not be long.


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## renau1g (Jan 13, 2011)

I wonder what [MENTION=23977]Scribble[/MENTION] thinks of this, he's typically a "look on the brightside" kind of person...


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## Ourph (Jan 13, 2011)

> The Heroes of Shadow product, originally scheduled for March and presented in digest-sized, paperback format, is moving to April to accommodate a change to hardcover format.



Fail. The new digest format is one of the few things that I thought WotC had done right lately. They are nice quality, cheaper and take up less space on my bookshelf. Going back to the overpriced hardback format is a horrible idea.


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## JPL (Jan 13, 2011)

I've been posting here for nine years, and a good part of it has been to tell people, no, the sky is not falling.

Well, I'm not gonna say that this time.  This looks bad to me, in part because the online content seems to have decreased in quality and quantity.  Essentials needs a good steady stream of quality crunch, or it will wither on the vine.


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## Prestidigitalis (Jan 13, 2011)

renau1g said:


> I wonder what @Scribble thinks of this, he's typically a "look on the brightside" kind of person...




Scribble sent me to tell you that we have seen the bright side at the end of the tunnel, or possibly on the greener side of the fence.  There is a silver lining to this mushroom cloud, and it's always darkest before the swarm.

Feel better now?


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## GMforPowergamers (Jan 13, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> Yeah, between this and the 5e playtest masquerading as a collectible cards "add-on" - it might not be long.




I have to wonder... does this extend the life of 4e.


Imagin the life of the game in number of books instead of years...

if 23 books are left, and 1 comes out a month then it is 23 months 

on the otehr hand if 4 books come out a year it is 6 years of life... 3x as much


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## Aegeri (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't mind Heroes of Shadow becoming a hardcover book. All of my softcover essentials books have been damaged, so I am not very happy with that format whatsoever.


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## Shemeska (Jan 13, 2011)

My guess is that the holiday sales for Essentials didn't pan out to expectations, budgets as a result got slashed, and likewise product got canned as a result. With the diversity of the releases lately, going into cards, board games, non-traditional RPG stuff, etc I took it as throwing stuff and finding what might strike a chord. With stuff getting canned and nothing replacing it, I'm at a loss as to what it precisely heralds, but it doesn't strike me as good.


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## Peraion Graufalke (Jan 13, 2011)

There _is_ a bright side. Can't you see?
Fewer books = less errata. 

Please don't kill me.


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## Ryujin (Jan 13, 2011)

Moving content to PDF might result in me renewing my subscription when it runs out, next month, despite the crap they've made out of CB. I'm completely disinterested in board games and tokens. I rather liked the figures lines, but wouldn't buy board games just to get them.


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## Dungeoneer (Jan 13, 2011)

A little piece of extra news - WotC_Huscarl has blogged about the reason for the delays with Dungeon & Dragon content.


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## UnknownAtThisTime (Jan 13, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> I am genuinely wondering how long 4th edition has now.




I disagree with this actually.  I think D&D in general and 4E in particular will be here for a while.  I agree this portends an apparent shift in delivery, but I think it might actually extend the 4e mechanic.


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## UnknownAtThisTime (Jan 13, 2011)

Duplicate deleted. It appeares the ENWorld servers are busy tonight ........


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 13, 2011)

Dungeoneer said:


> A little piece of extra news - WotC_Huscarl has blogged about the reason for the delays with Dungeon & Dragon content.



I just caught this as well, and while I suspect that it is nothing more than additional spin, since there is little very specific information there, it does somewhat give me hope that the material lost from the books that were canned will be released to subscribers. Better to see it behind the pay wall than not at all.


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## Ahrimon (Jan 13, 2011)

I've tried to stay positive through all of this.  I like essentials and think they make a great addition to the 4e line.  But this really takes me back.  While the content may still be available, this is technically the end of Dragon and Dungeon magazine.  I've been a subscriber since the AD&D era and to see these two magazines die behind the curtain of seperate web articles really saddens me.

I have to wonder if WotC got a good taste of the DDI continuous subscription drug and is now hooked.  They're looking for every reason to put everything behind DDI and keep that subscription fix coming.


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## mudbunny (Jan 13, 2011)

A bit more information on the changes to the product line-up can be found in the following WotC Knowledge Base Article:

D&D Product Lineup Changes FAQ


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## UnknownAtThisTime (Jan 13, 2011)

Ahrimon said:


> I have to wonder if WotC got a good taste of the DDI continuous subscription drug and is now hooked.




I've emailed Slavicsek to tell him the announced changes may have the opposite effect on me.


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## AntlerDruid (Jan 13, 2011)

Wow what depressing news.....with Dragon now just being pitiful for the past few months (there are few exceptions like the Hexblade articles though).....and the new CB being completely worthless to me as it doesn't allow House Rule additions.......the movement of Heroes Of Shadow another month..........I really hope there will be additions of physical books that come out....


if not there better be ALOT more articles online then there is now.....at LEAST 3x more.....with CRUNCH......not endless "flavor" articles


...if they have positive plans for release of material, then they should have included it with this announcement......now it just feels like doom and gloom.


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## caudor (Jan 13, 2011)

That's weird, the wind is blowing toward the storm...

I wonder why there have been many sudden changes in direction within the last year?

-From hardcover to digest
-From digest to hardcover
-From 4e to Essentials
-From Essentials to ???
-Rapid shifts in how DDI material is presented...including handling of character builder
-Remaining uncertainty about the pulling pdfs and future offerings.

To sum it all up in one word:  uncertainty

For a product line as old as D&D, it seems the roadmap for this game has been changing any which way the wind blows in recent years.  Does anyone truly know which way this ship is headed?


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## Piratecat (Jan 13, 2011)

I'll theorize, pulling all this information from my butt. I have no data to back any of it up, it's doubtlessly riddled with holes in logic, and it's worth exactly what you're paying for it - zilch!  But it's fun to consider.

Given:

- Recent releases (Essentials, Red Box) are targeted to new gamers or disaffected older gamers.

- Pathfinder is selling roughly what 4e is according to one report (rumor?) I heard. If the size of the RPG "pie" is equal to what it is during 3e (almost certainly not the case; 4e has brought some people into the hobby for the first time, and some people have dropped out), then WotC D&D sales are about half of what they used to be.

- D&D is expensive, manpower-heavy and slow to produce. WotC pays good money to freelancers and has good salaries for employees; they work years ahead of schedule, making it hard to predict market trends. D&D employs a relatively large amount of people relative to its sales size compared to other brands at WotC and Hasbro.

- The DDI delays, cuts and errors match a pattern of not enough manpower to deliver expected results in the anticipated time. Changes in schedule have the net result of trying to free peoples' time by reducing work that does not directly produce income (such as no longer compiling the web articles.)

To me, that spells trouble. It indicates that the D&D line is under-performing and is trying to do more with less. 

I'm not sure what to say about that, other than I don't believe that WotC would sell the D&D brand - not with DDO doing well and both a movie and another major computer game on the way. My guess is that in a worst case scenario they maintain the brand until they can revitalize it.

Huh. I just depressed myself. I play 4e and love it, but to me this is definitely the low rumbling of distant thunder.


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 13, 2011)

Ourph said:


> Fail. The new digest format is one of the few things that I thought WotC had done right lately. They are nice quality, cheaper and take up less space on my bookshelf. Going back to the overpriced hardback format is a horrible idea.




There has to be a reason for this.  Perhaps the Essentials format wasn't as successful as we thought?

Not that it matters much...for all practical purposes, most of the published conten


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 13, 2011)

JPL said:


> I've been posting here for nine years, and a good part of it has been to tell people, no, the sky is not falling.
> 
> Well, I'm not gonna say that this time.  This looks bad to me, in part because the online content seems to have decreased in quality and quantity.  Essentials needs a good steady stream of quality crunch, or it will wither on the vine.




Here's my 'the sky is not falling' comment.

1.  We knew D&D minis were on it's last legs already.  They just finally put the horse out of it's misery.

2.  Regarding the change to hardcover of Heroes of Shadow, and the cancellation of the other three books...I don't know about most people, but I'd decided not to buy anymore 'crunch' books.  All that stuff is much better consumed by myself via the DDI tools.  And since they've also stated in the FAQ that the material in those three cancelled books will be published via DDI, I'll get that content eventually anyways.  Possibly _earlier_.

3.  There isn't a lot left now to get excited about though...the Shadowfell boxed set and the next Monster Vault and possibly Ravenloft...but anything else that is exciting is NOT going to get announced via DDI.  It'll be at DDXP, which is only in a couple more weeks.

4.  My main concern is that the content from the cancelled books won't be _added_ to DDI...but replace content we normally would expect.


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## GMforPowergamers (Jan 13, 2011)

ArcaneSpringboard said:


> There has to be a reason for this.  Perhaps the Essentials format wasn't as successful as we thought?
> 
> Not that it matters much...for all practical purposes, most of the published conten




I was hopeing those new format would lead to Nook/Kindel ebook support...


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## Knightfall (Jan 13, 2011)

Ahrimon said:


> I've tried to stay positive through all of this.  I like essentials and think they make a great addition to the 4e line.  But this really takes me back.  While the content may still be available, this is technically the end of Dragon and Dungeon magazine.  I've been a subscriber since the AD&D era and to see these two magazines die behind the curtain of seperate web articles really saddens me.



I agree. Not having a compiled version of the magazine articles is a bit... jarring. It makes me wonder, how long will it be until they stop referring to the articles as being from Dragon or Dungeon altogether?

That would be a very sad day. 



> I have to wonder if WotC got a good taste of the DDI continuous subscription drug and is now hooked.  They're looking for every reason to put everything behind DDI and keep that subscription fix coming.



I've never subscribed although I've been considering it since Dark Sun and Essentials came out. I'm really impressed with the new monster & class formats, themes, increased fluff, and the monster tiles.

However, if WotC puts the material that was supposed to be part of a canceled book behind their pay wall, I might have to boycott. That's not a good thing, IMO. 

I do remember reading (somewhere on the D&D site) that WotC is planning to expand the free side of the site as well. Perhaps some of what was in the books might become free content? 

I can dream, can't I? 

Even if WotC made some free and some behind the pay wall, I would be agreeable to trying DDI for a few months.


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## renau1g (Jan 13, 2011)

ArcaneSpringboard said:


> 2.  Regarding the change to hardcover of Heroes of Shadow, and the cancellation of the other three books...I don't know about most people, but I'd decided not to buy anymore 'crunch' books.  All that stuff is much better consumed by myself via the DDI tools.




That's why I was really looking forward to the Magic Item book. AV 1&2 were disappointing as it was just a random collection of magic items, but this one, I had high expectations for as it was essentially a fluff heavy piece (at least based on the previews) that I'd gladly buy to stimulate my DM brain. The DDI would get the items, but the book-owners would get the fluff, just like the Dark Sun creature catalog. They'd likely be more successful with this, but it's also a lot more work, so maybe the budget's not there.


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## Saeviomagy (Jan 13, 2011)

It confuses me that they've dropped 3 player-targeted books and yet kept one that's distinctly DM-targeted (shadowfel), and with a restricted audience at that.

Might it just be that their new policy on vetting DDI content is leaving them without the rules-junkies to vet rule heavy books? That would explain shadowfell staying because it's liable to be almost entirely fluff, whereas the class compendium and mordenkainen's would both need some heavy rules work.


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## caudor (Jan 13, 2011)

Saeviomagy said:


> It confuses me that they've dropped 3 player-targeted books and yet kept one that's distinctly DM-targeted (shadowfel), and with a restricted audience at that.
> 
> Might it just be that their new policy on vetting DDI content is leaving them without the rules-junkies to vet rule heavy books? That would explain shadowfell staying because it's liable to be almost entirely fluff, whereas the class compendium and mordenkainen's would both need some heavy rules work.




Well, there is one reason why they might drop the crunch and push the fluff...dare I say it?  

Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition

[ducks]


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 13, 2011)

caudor said:


> Well, there is one reason why they might drop the crunch and push the fluff...dare I say it?
> 
> Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition
> 
> [ducks]




Please stop with the 5E talk. Those comments were old years ago.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 13, 2011)

> we plan to deliver just as much great content for players this year through other formats, including board games, accessories, and digital offerings




Yeah, right. 

Not for me. 

Board games? That is not content, that is totally separate. 

BTW, what accessories? No more minis. Who buys dice from WOTC? TWo tile sets this year. Who needs cards of any kind with WOTC? I don:t even see many adventures.

Digital offerings. Sorry, do not subscribe. I will buy books, though it looks like there are no books to buy.


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## caudor (Jan 13, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> Please stop with the 5E talk. Those comments were old years ago.




Sorry, I was speaking in jest. The mood here seems so dark, I was trying to lighten things up a bit.  Heck, I even caught myself doomsaying this evening.

Whatever happens, D&D is still my favorite game, and that won't change anytime soon.  We are discussing a game!  This ought to be a pleasurable activity.


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## Lancelot (Jan 13, 2011)

I'd like to offer a possible perspective on why the three books were canceled.

Look at the nature of the three books: 


a massive list of class features and powers
a massive list of items
a "builders guidebook"
None of these are fluff items. Much of the artwork will be fairly bland (characters and items, rather than cool new monsters or maps or settings). These are not really books-for-reading and, while I appreciate that many like to have hard copy (and I *most certainly do*), most people will actually be *using *content from them via either the online compendium or the character builder. 

From personal experience, I don't sit down with a Long Island Iced Tea on my deck and start reading Adventurers Vault 2 for the prose and the artwork. It's a reference manual, nothing more. And, increasingly, I find that it's a reference manual that I don't use that much. As a DM (and a player), I want to know all the possible 5th level Neck-slot items that I can find in the treasure chest, across all of my books and sources. Enter DDI...

The first two releases above are covered well by character builder and the online compendium. In fact, they're almost certainly covered 100% by those sources. They're 95% crunch, 5% fluff (and almost nobody even reads the 5% fluff that you'll find in a "magic item book" or a "more feats and powers" book). The third item is either in the same bucket (if it's crunch) or it's function is already largely handled by things like the Char Ops board (if it's a strategy guide).

In my opinion, they're small losses. And I suspect, from WotC's revenue projections, they're simply not a good bet in terms of money-makers. More and more people appear to be using DDI, which means these books aren't really a must-purchase. There's nothing in them that you don't get for "free" if you're already paying a sub. For my group, that means 5-of-10 players already get all the content for free. And of the remaining players, who's keen on yet another magic item book, and yet another character options book? Many of my players have splatbook fatigue. You can already use AV and AV2 with Essentials; I can't see many of my players forking our for Mord's Magnificent Emporium as well.

Now, there are two scenarios for me that *would* mean the sky is falling...


Nothing new gets announced for the rest of 2011. There are only three books released, a couple board games, and a crappy "action-adventure" computer game (rather than a classic CRPG like NWN or Baldur's Gate).
They start cancelling *real* books... books that *aren't *160 pages of feats, powers and items for existing classes. I'm talking entirely new classes (Heroes of Shadow), new settings (Shadowfell), etc. These are the books that I will actually read from cover-to-cover.
I think it's too early to assume that either of the above is going to happen yet. I'll be interested to see what happens over the next couple months. If there have been no new releases announced (or more cancellations) by the end of March, then I'll begin to worry.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 13, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I'm okay with going with individual articles rather than compiled zines, but it does seem to be an odd choice since it can't take very long to make those compiled zines. I can't imagine they're gaining much from this, but eh...maybe... (and that does cast that previous poll in a new light!).




It will allow them more flexibility on their weekly schedule.  They don't have to worry about integrating articles into a whole.  If they miss an article out, they don't have to go and reformat their compilation.

I may not like the weekly "schedule," and I use that term loosely, but the more WotC realizes that ezines are _not_ magazines, the better off their digital initiatives will be.



Knightfall said:


> I agree. Not having a compiled version of the magazine articles is a bit... jarring. It makes me wonder, how long will it be until they stop referring to the articles as being from Dragon or Dungeon altogether?
> 
> That would be a very sad day.




There's a good reason to keep the magazine titles - a clear demarcation between content meant for players and that meant for DMs.  They're titles that have long since entered shorthand for determining the content of the articles.  Plus, nostalgia keeps the old players happy.



Saeviomagy said:


> It confuses me that they've dropped 3 player-targeted books and yet kept one that's distinctly DM-targeted (shadowfel), and with a restricted audience at that.
> 
> Might it just be that their new policy on vetting DDI content is leaving them without the rules-junkies to vet rule heavy books? That would explain shadowfell staying because it's liable to be almost entirely fluff, whereas the class compendium and mordenkainen's would both need some heavy rules work.




My guess, and this is _only _a guess, and an optimistic one at that:

My supposition is despite the grousing by people here (including myself), WotC is starting to realize that DDI is actually a viable business strategy.  The subscription model tends to provide more stable income than one-off payments, which includes books.  Of course, there are many more players than DMs, so the obvious business strategy is to drive players to DDI in order to take advantage of the stability.

So, like many others, I think that the canceled player books will eventually be converted to digital offerings, as a way of driving players to the website.  However, you have to have a hook to get players going there - that would be _Heroes of Shadow_.  I would not in the least be surprised to see references to, if not a whole ad for, DDI.  It also likely provides a test point for book sales; what are the numbers like right now, should we consider more/less books, format changes, whatever.  They still want a feel for the book market.

On the other hand, DM-flavored books (IMO) gain little from the move to DDI.  Since they have less people buying them, it might be worth it to leave them as books; many of the DMs are probably DDI subscribers anyway.  It's basically an added little bit of income from the small portion of their consumers that run the game.  Note that Heroes of Shadow was moved to hardcover, but the others weren't - less overhead cost for printing a product that will make less money.

Looking at the long term, I _suspect_ that if there's a future edition (of any type), that the online offerings will be a much bigger draw.  In the same way 4E incorporates stuff WotC learned from 3E, a future edition would certainly incorporate everything has learned about digital offerings from teh start.


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## Knightfall (Jan 13, 2011)

renau1g said:


> That's why I was really looking forward to the Magic Item book. AV 1&2 were disappointing as it was just a random collection of magic items, but this one, I had high expectations for as it was essentially a fluff heavy piece (at least based on the previews) that I'd gladly buy to stimulate my DM brain. The DDI would get the items, but the book-owners would get the fluff, just like the Dark Sun creature catalog. They'd likely be more successful with this, but it's also a lot more work, so maybe the budget's not there.



Perhaps they might replace the magic item book with a Adventurers Vault boxed set.


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## mearlus (Jan 13, 2011)

What is up indeed.  

I had just gotten into the mini's w/ the latest release in preparation to starting a new campaign.  I guess I can see those not being huge sellers or collectible as say MTG cards but I have to admit I started to get 'addicted' to buying a box every few weeks to see what I got 

So far I have nothing to really look forward to buying this year from WoTC.  They canceled/delayed/hidden/whatever the products I had planned on purchasing.

I guess my wife will be happier knowing I'll be spending much less money this year on D&D.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 13, 2011)

So who here dosn't see Paizo as taking the #1 spot for the 1st quarter of '11? What is WoTC even selling for the first quarter of '11? Bad move all around


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## RangerWickett (Jan 13, 2011)

For nearly 3 years I've read WotC announcements on 4e, and about half the time I've been disappointed. But I still enjoy the game, and they still put out good products. And I know a lot of companies are going through crunches right now, so I'm not worried about the fate of D&D just because WotC is having to try to 'do more with less.'

The library where I work, we went from a staff of 28 in August of 09 to 16 now. We're still providing the necessary services. I figure WotC likewise is just weathering the recessionary storm.

I do wish they got better at PR, though. Actually, I wish I knew more about WotC's long term strategy. Give us more context to understand your decisions. But I trust 'em.

(In no small part because I'll send orc ninjas after them them if they repeat what happened when E.N. Publishing was releasing War of the Burning Sky. We got to adventure 6 of WotBS, and then they announced a new edition, which completely killed our sales and ruined our schedule for months. I do not want that happening with ZEITGEIST.)


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## Mengu (Jan 13, 2011)

D&D Product Lineup Changes FAQ said:
			
		

> Q: Why have the Class Compendium: Heroes of Sword and Spell, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Emporium and Hero Builder's Handbook been removed from the calendar?
> A: We are constantly striving to remain conscious of the way our fans consume our content. We felt that the material in these titles would best be presented in other ways and we have plans to make it available in the future.




Their spies are in my head! They knew I wasn't going to buy any of these products because I saw no point in it. I was just going to wait till the material hit the compendium and CB, and read it off there. I expect the material will be redirected straight to online media.

I don't need my shelves weighed down by heavy books that gather dust after a few weeks of browsing. Last D&D book I got was MM3, and that's mostly for the pictures. If they incorporate pictures into the Compendium/Monster Builder, we'll be golden.

I approve of this move, but I expect I will very much be in the minority for the vocal group.


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## weem (Jan 13, 2011)

Just posted it seems...

"Website Columns" by Bart Carroll on the wotc site...

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Website Columns)

Essentially...



> We feel we can do a better job communicating more regularly and consistently. To this end, we’re planning to bring a series of regular, weekly columns to the site. They’ll be free and in addition to the content we’re currently providing. Our goal with these columns is to create an ongoing dialogue with D&D fans, presenting thoughts and ideas that we feel are touchstones for segments of the community, and helping spark discussion on topics of interest to you.


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## Siberys (Jan 13, 2011)

Crossposted from the WoTC boards...

Aww, class Compendium and Heroes of Heroic Tier looked good, too...

Also, I REALLY dislike the move away from compiled issues. Material is downloaded over the coarse of the month so people can get a look at it. Of course there'll be more hits on it! IME, I download each article at least once to get a look at it, but only saved the compilation. This'll just make archiving issues that much more difficult for me.


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## Moorcrys (Jan 13, 2011)

There is a the possibility that they believe the crunch of the game is increasingly dependent upon using their online tools and that their in-house numbers show that most people who play are turning to the character and monster builder for all of the material they're releasing in the books. If they simply print their 10 product essentials line to bring new people into the hobby (along with other media tie ins like movies, crpgs, etc.) then sell new players on the online subscription for the scads of new crunch material they're planning on releasing through dragon etc. It saves them from printing material people are going to be logging on to access anyway. How will this hurt the local game stores? Is encounters and other wotc-supported methods of getting people to play going to be abandoned in favor of pushing their upcoming online tabletop? They certainly have very little material to get people in the stores to buy this year as of right now.


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## Sutekh (Jan 13, 2011)

To be honest as a DDI subscriber, I dont purchase a lot of hard copy books anymore. I normally wait till I get my tax return back then buy in bulk  (usually a years worth of books)from an online source (or spread it around so I can take advantage of free shipping).

I dont think the compiled issues will affect me too much as Ive never really been a huge Dragon/Dungeon reader. I read some articles because of their subject matter and not others. As I only save the articles that interest me, I dont mind losing the compilations at all.

Unlike Mengu though and probably because Im a Librarian, I do need shelves weighed down by lots of rpg books (and I do have this look going on already)


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## frogged (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm a little surprised people are so upset that these three books were canceled. It appears that they would have contained very little actual new game material.

Hero Builder's Handbook: Next to no information was released about this book, but its description made it sound similar to the Player's Strategy Guide, a book containing zero new rules or game material and essentially no story material.

Class Compendium: This book was only revealed to us about two months ago and what was described was a book of mostly recycled content. The bulk of this book would have simply been five of the classes from Player's Handbook 1 in a slightly different format but identical mechanically. The only thing listed which was new material were multiclassing rules for essentials characters along with rules for swapping class features between essential and non essential builds of the same class. While that is definitely material I am interested in seeing, it is probably more appropriate in an online article.

Mordenkainen’s Magnificent Emporium: This book was billed as an Adventurer's Vault for the dungeon master, containing story, background and adventure hooks for (all?) of the items in this book. While this would have probably produced the largest source of new game material of the three books, it sounds as though it would have contained far fewer items than its predecessors. It appears as though the premise of this book just didn't fit the format. When the concept of an entire book is putting the focus more on the story behind the items and less on the items themselves, how do you even organize the items?  Its content is probably better off being divided into a series of  articles each containing a selection of related items and/or stories.

The canceling of books can be seen as a bad sign, but that's only really true if those books were worth publishing, especially if some or all of the content of those would-have-been books is released to us anyway.


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## mach1.9pants (Jan 13, 2011)

As much as I don't like the new direction (unless they release those books as ebooks of some sort) I am really peeved about them not compiling the articles... it is just a simple fact of logistics, I don't want to click on every freaking article and DL it, then DL it again when it is amended, whilst organising them in folders etc etc. Every time I read them I will opening DPF after PDF, rather than one and reading it through. I reckon since it went digital I have downloaded at most a dozen articles, I wait for the compilation.

I am subscribed til Oct this year, so I will get some decent cash back if I cancel. As I am not playing 4E ATM the online CB is moot but I still LOVE reading game boks. So unless there is an ebook announcement very soon, I will get the last compilation (will January be compiled?) and I am off to no more 4E purchases.


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## ColonelHardisson (Jan 13, 2011)

I know the announcement was about D&D material, but the mention of boardgames got me to thinking...if I got a RPG-specific wish from a 1e efreeti, I'd wish for WotC to truly revive Avalon Hill and bring back games like Panzer Leader.


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## Jan van Leyden (Jan 13, 2011)

I really don't know how to judge this new information. Two different scenarios come to mind:

*Dark Clouds Gather*
The turnover of D&D is dwindling. The move to the Essentials line didn't lead to skyrocketing sales either. WotC is moving to products , which are easier to develop and need less after-sales support like board games. The idea is to milk the brand as much as possible, perhaps selling it off when the revenue stream is still good but showing signs of drying out.

The developers try to make at least a graceful exit from the RPG market. They move their stuff over to DDI in order to lessen production costs and buy some time. When the time comes for D&D to be sold, the customer data of the DDI accounts are sold as well.

*Sunny Side up!*
We finally see the next step in the direction of digital, service-based D&D; they way RPGs will be published in the next decades. Digital content is elevated by the new development process, classic books are withdrawn, their contents better presented in digital form (CB, Compendium).

Classic products will continue to lose their "identity" with the focus shifting to elements integrated into the digital services. A few years from now we will play our games based on a huge database of material with printed stuff tailored to one's specific needs.

Want to select a Paragon Path for your character? Load it in the CB, hit a button and you get a file (PDF or other format) containing all the material (rules plus description) you need and only this material.

Want to play the new adventure with your group? Select whether you want it delivered as complete PDF (including maps), as application for your MS Surface device or directly play it vie the VTT. Oh, you want to change some monsters in the adventure? No problem, change it online and select your delivery method as above.


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## Reigan (Jan 13, 2011)

If ddi makes more money than selling dead trees then this is a good move for them. It's just that the tones of the article didn't seem very upbeat.

If they made a statement that they were moving to a fully digital model with tools to manage your game, your characters and to play online but no more books, I would be happy with that. Switching resources from producing new rules to bringing ddi up to speed would make sense then.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 13, 2011)

JoeGKushner said:


> So who here dosn't see Paizo as taking the #1 spot for the 1st quarter of '11? What is WoTC even selling for the first quarter of '11? Bad move all around




#1 is less impressive if not one else is racing. 

But I can see it happening.


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## Klaus (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't have any more information than anyone else, so the following reflects only my opinions/hopes/impressions:

- The "removed" books had a weaker "hook" than usual: reformatting existing classes, expanding multiclass rules, etc, are not a strong enough draw to make expensive hardbacks out of. The sort of material produced for it seem to be more in line with the digital offering. Note that the material isn't being scrapped, as far as we can tell, just rearranged for a different presentation.

- As an expansion of the above, Heroes of Shadow is still on, since it has a tighter "focus".

- The cancellation of the minis line: seems to be a reflection of two things: lower sales for Lords of Madness and a strong reception to the tokens in the Red Box, DMKit and MV.

- The mentioning of boardgames: Could be due to a strong performance of the Castle Ravenloft game? This could be the new format of the old Fantastic Locations line: you get a battleboard, minis and 4e-derived standalone rules, so the boardgame can be used with or without the core rules.

- We could prossibly still see new products announced for the second half of 2011, using material from the previously announced books and expanded to cover specific needs of the line.


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## Dausuul (Jan 13, 2011)

My guess would be that book sales are declining steadily. Casual players never bought many books to begin with; hardcore players nowadays are likely to have DDI and thus not bother. Given the overhead of printing and publishing, they've decided to cut their losses.

In my group, I am the only one who buys D&D books, ever. It's been that way for about a year now. And even I don't buy very many; I went out and bought Essentials because I was too eager to wait for the DDI release (considering how long that release took, this was clearly the right decision), but I no longer even think about blowing money on Martial Power XVI: The Hackening. Why bother? It's not like I'm going to get any use out of it until it hits the Character Builder, and then I won't need the book.

It's a rational decision on my part, and cutting publication of physical books is a rational response on WotC's part. It may well improve the quality of the game down the road. But it's a sad day nonetheless for anyone who grew up devouring loquacious, chart-laden tomes full of bizarre creatures and Larry Elmore's softcore porn.

_Edit: ...Or, then again, maybe it isn't. Maybe it's actually a really happy day. Y'know why? Because ever since WotC took over D&D back in 2000, there has been a relentless focus on "crunch." Every book had to have a minimum quotient of crunchy mechanics, and this required level took a big leap when 4E was released. This has perhaps increased their utility as gaming manuals, but it has at the same time made them much less fun to read. If WotC now plans to move all their crunch-heavy offerings into DDI, that frees up the published book line to become _books_ again--things to sit down with, page through, be inspired by. Back to the old school. _


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## DonAdam (Jan 13, 2011)

This does look bad as I was looking forward to the Class Compendium especially, but I will reserve judgment until DDXP. I find it hard to believe that they would cancel so much unless it was making room for something else.

In all honesty I could stand a little "grid-filling" right now. I loved Essentials, but I want things like warlords, more cleric domains, more mage schools, etc. Things that increase options without increasing clutter (i.e., feats, powers, etc.).

But my fear is that the something else that fills the schedule will try to make people even more dependent on paying the renewing DDI fee. Both the new character builder and the no issue compilation moves seem like they're headed in that direction.


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## Zaran (Jan 13, 2011)

DonAdam said:


> This does look bad as I was looking forward to the Class Compendium especially, but I will reserve judgment until DDXP. I find it hard to believe that they would cancel so much unless it was making room for something else.
> 
> In all honesty I could stand a little "grid-filling" right now. I loved Essentials, but I want things like warlords, more cleric domains, more mage schools, etc. Things that increase options without increasing clutter (i.e., feats, powers, etc.).
> 
> But my fear is that the something else that fills the schedule will try to make people even more dependent on paying the renewing DDI fee. Both the new character builder and the no issue compilation moves seem like they're headed in that direction.




I think DDXP will just announce boardgames and collectible card games.  It's dumb to completely cancel books especially when people were already pre-ordering them! It's one thing to push books back.  It's another thing to completely cancel them.  I don't want the Heroes of Shadow book whether it's in hard cover or soft.  They didn't even say why they cancelled them. 

As for DDI, "Wow we aren't going to sell anymore books that will need to updated into the builder every month! We are giving people lots of free articles every week! We aren't going to bother making everthing into mag form! Subscribe now before it disappears off the shelf!"


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## ExploderWizard (Jan 13, 2011)

Truename said:


> What a disappointing column. I was hoping that the hole in the schedule was due to some surprise in the works--and if not, then I was hoping there would at least be some explanation. Sadly, Ampersand just gave me what I've come to expect from it... spin, spin, spin, with very little real communication.




Well.......Hasbro _does _produce the sit 'n spin. Perhaps that product was used to inspire communication policies.


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## UnknownAtThisTime (Jan 13, 2011)

Klaus said:


> - The cancellation of the minis line: seems to be a reflection of two things: lower sales for Lords of Madness and a strong reception to the tokens in the Red Box, DMKit and MV.




I think this has little to do with tokens (which I love). It is clear to me the direction is virtual, in both content delivery and play. Why sell struggling minis when you hope 90% of play will be on your subscriber based VTT in the next 6 months?




Klaus said:


> - The mentioning of boardgames: Could be due to a strong performance of the Castle Ravenloft game? This could be the new format of the old Fantastic Locations line: you get a battleboard, minis and 4e-derived standalone rules, so the boardgame can be used with or without the core rules.




For 70 bucks? Hah. I bought Ravenloft, I like Ravenloft. It is a board game, and not part of my D&D experience. WotC should not imply they can take away RPG content and replace it with board game content, period.

If they want to (re) introduce Fantastic Locations, I would be ALL OVER THAT. I was just on ebay last night scouring for some for map purposes.


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## Riley (Jan 13, 2011)

Klaus said:


> - The "removed" books had a weaker "hook" than usual: reformatting existing classes, expanding multiclass rules, etc, are not a strong enough draw to make expensive hardbacks out of. The sort of material produced for it seem to be more in line with the digital offering.




This is my general take on the matter.  I live in a FLGS-free zone, so I pretty much order all my D&D books through Amazon.

I hadn't bothered to preorder any of these canceled books.


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## ki11erDM (Jan 13, 2011)

JoeGKushner said:


> So who here dosn't see Paizo as taking the #1 spot for the 1st quarter of '11? What is WoTC even selling for the first quarter of '11? Bad move all around




What does that even mean?  I am a 100% sure that D&D ‘sales numbers’ will drop, because it won’t be traditionally publishing 2 to 3 books ever month ever again.  They are moving to an online format that will make the idea of ‘sales numbers’ immaterial.   They will only keep Essentials in the stores along with ‘fluffy’ books like campaign settings.
Everything else is moving online.


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## UngeheuerLich (Jan 13, 2011)

Books scrapped - sad day.

R&D approved articles in the DDI - happy day.

So I am neutral right now.

And I want AD&D again. (At least an Advanced DMG book, with monster and trap and dungeon building guidelines)


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## Wednesday Boy (Jan 13, 2011)

captainspud said:


> So barring further announcements, the ONLY book releases this year are Heroes of Shadow (APR), Shadowfell (JUN), and the Monster Vault: TttNV (JUN).




There's also the Neverwinter Campaign Guide (August) and Madness at Gardmore Abbey (September).



Kamikaze Midget said:


> I'm okay with going with individual articles rather than compiled zines, but it does seem to be an odd choice since it can't take very long to make those compiled zines.




That's what I thought too.  I have to compiled PDFs for work and it generally takes very little time.  But their process could be apples while mine is oranges.



Ourph said:


> Fail. The new digest format is one of the few things that I thought WotC had done right lately. They are nice quality, cheaper and take up less space on my bookshelf. Going back to the overpriced hardback format is a horrible idea.




That was one of the best parts of the article to me.  I vastly prefer a hardcover book, so I'm happy to wait just a little while longer.



Siberys said:


> Also, I REALLY dislike the move away from compiled issues.






mach1.9pants said:


> As much as I don't like the new direction (unless they release those books as ebooks of some sort) I am really peeved about them not compiling the articles...




Drop them a line and let them know.  That's what I did.  If they don't hear our opinions they will think everyone likes it.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 13, 2011)

Wednesday Boy said:


> Drop them a line and let them know.  That's what I did.  If they don't hear our opinions they will think everyone likes it.



This.
Squeaky wheel gets the kick.


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## Festivus (Jan 13, 2011)

I missed it perhaps, but what happened to the Nentir Vale book?  That was one I was actually looking forward to.

I am sad that minis are cancelled.  Not sad for me but for others who don't already own several thousand.  Minis made a nice prize I could buy to give out at events.  I really like minis on the battlefield over pogs... they also don't bounce as much when someone bumps the table, and are easier to pickup.

I might have to wait a year or two and see how the aftermarket looks for these, perhaps I have a gold mine in my garage waiting to happen, then take those profits and build a digital tabletop.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 13, 2011)

You're kidding. So I just got interested in 4E again due to Essentials and the new format and now it's being dumped. That's excellent. 

I have no interest in DDI. Why? Because I like to actually read my books. I like sitting down with a cup of tea/coffee and re-reading things I wasn't clear on, going over brand new content, etc. I also absolutely hate digital devices at the gaming table. What they do is allow people to go on their facebook, look for dumb videos on youtube, check their e-mail and everything else. This doesn't happen all session long but it does happen sometimes, usually one person is worse than everyone else but it can be infectious. I also don't want a laptop taking up all the table space we DON'T have. Nor do I like searching through a pdf and having to tilt the screen vs. thumbing through a book I'm already familiar navigating.

This looks like trying to cut costs and satisfy DDI subscribers/recruit new ones. This is the transition I was dreading and I am really not pleased. I feel I've been abandoned just when I thought WoTC was producing things in book format that I actually enjoyed this edition. Too bad. I've got enough content as it is so that's fine but this is not a positive movement for me personally.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 13, 2011)

For me personally... my response to the fact these books are cancelled is 'good riddance'.

I don't want a completely separate source of game rule information like books... a source that is in no way connected to the main trunk of D&D information, which is their rules database (until they get around to adding the info a month or so after it's been put on the shelves).  In fact... it'd be nice to think that perhaps in a perfect world... a crunch article fully vetted by R&D would get posted onto the website and _simultaneously_ get added to the Rule Compendium, CB, MT and VTT (whichever ones apply).  THAT would be the best case scenario all around.

While I sympathize with all of you who are clinging to the idea of actual print material... we as a culture are moving on from it.  Magazines are going away and being replaced with websites and blogs... books are being replaced with their digital versions on Kindles and Nooks.  The need, desire and requirement for printed books is over.  And if it saves time and money for D&D to follow that river towards the completely digital sea... then that's the way it's going to go.

So I agree with the posters above... split the new D&D material up two ways.  Anything to do with mechanics and game rules gets published via DDI and gets funneled directly into the digital tools.  Anything that is primarily fluff... like the Manual of the Planes and its four offshoot books; the campaign guides; the more detailed monster ecology books (Open Grave, Draconomicon, Demonnomicon etc.)... these can get printed and bound and put on the shelves of the local bookstore where people might pick it up and actually read them (rather than have their eyes glaze over from nothing but stat blocks).  If they can also appear on the various e-readers too... so much the better.  

Put the stuff to actually READ in the places where we would read them.  Put the stuff that is nothing but numbers in the place where numbers get stored-- a database.


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## Wednesday Boy (Jan 13, 2011)

Festivus said:


> I missed it perhaps, but what happened to the Nentir Vale book? That was one I was actually looking forward to.




Threats to the Nentir Vale?  That's still being produced.  (Although it's full title is "Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale".)


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## Riley (Jan 13, 2011)

Wednesday Boy said:


> Threats to the Nentir Vale?  That's still being produced.  (Although it's full title is "Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale".)




At one point, there was also to be a Nentir Vale sourcebook this spring.  It disappeared a while ago.

I would've been quite interested in that one.


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## Festivus (Jan 13, 2011)

Wednesday Boy said:


> Threats to the Nentir Vale?  That's still being produced.  (Although it's full title is "Monster Vault: Threats to the Nentir Vale".)




No, the Nentir Vale Gazetteer or something like that.  At first I wasn't interested but now I am thinking about a home campaign set there.


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## Mummolus (Jan 13, 2011)

I noticed they didn't say anything about Heroes of the Heroic Tier, which was also removed from the schedule. Hopefully this means it hasn't suffered the same fate, but more likely I suspect they just forgot about it.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 13, 2011)

Mummolus said:


> I noticed they didn't say anything about Heroes of the Heroic Tier, which was also removed from the schedule. Hopefully this means it hasn't suffered the same fate, but more likely I suspect they just forgot about it.



If their behaviour of late is any indication, they're probably waiting to see how their new direction takes off before making any final decisions about the fate of that particular book.

Then again, maybe they axed it too, but thought it was too far ahead on their roadmap to bother including it in their announcement.


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## Bitter_Chivalry (Jan 13, 2011)

*Uh-oh *

*shiver*

I'm getting a bad feeling about this - cancellations and changes of format (again?)


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## Wednesday Boy (Jan 13, 2011)

Riley said:


> At one point, there was also to be a Nentir Vale sourcebook this spring. It disappeared a while ago.






Festivus said:


> No, the Nentir Vale Gazetteer or something like that.




Oh, I'd forgotten about that one.  No ideas...


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 13, 2011)

I get the idea that crunch could/should be relegated to DDI but not all of us use DDI or have much interest in it. Does this simply mean we're being left behind and the format of the game is changing this drastically? That's what I don't like. 

I may be using DDI in the coming months as it seems in person games will be less possible with some of the groups and so we'll be trying to make it work online. In such a case DDI would be great. I guess I'm just a (not old) curmudgeon who wants books nearby/in hand to flip through and read. I don't want to have to open a computer every time someone wants to look at feats or what kinds of magic items there are out there. I want to hand them a book and let them flip through it. 

I'm sure some of you are accustomed to groups where every player has multiple books and maybe several also have DDI. The thing is that's an almost ideal situation. In my case the DM (myself) buys almost everything and the players use it/borrow it when they need/want to. In such a case DDI doesn't help me much. It doesn't let me hand them a book when we're able to get together. 

Change is fine but I thought WoTC was doing a fine job of making both the books and DDI useful for their respective audiences. Now it seems like those of us like me are being forced to join the DDI crowd just to see the kinds of products we were expecting in book form.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 13, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> If their behaviour of late is any indication, they're probably waiting to see how their new direction takes off before making any final decisions about the fate of that particular book.
> 
> Then again, maybe they axed it too, but thought it was too far ahead on their roadmap to bother including it in their announcement.




If they're smart... that material will go straight to Dragon.

If you announce that generic Character Themes will be released to DDI each and every week, that'll bring bunches of people scrambling to get a subscription.  A whole NEW WAY to add crunch to your character is exactly the kind of thing we SHOULD be getting from Dragon Magazine.

I mean c'mon... if we got new Themes every month, new Backgrounds every month, new Races like we used to... it'd instantly make Dragon (and the DDI subscription) really worthwhile again.


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## ShaggySpellsword (Jan 13, 2011)

If I ran the zoo this would probably be the business model:

D&D Core: DMGs (maybe just one or two, as many as 3 ever), PHBs (the place to introduce new races and classes.  They would need to be functional without anything other than PHB material for off-line players.), dungeon tiles, minis, occasional adventures, and Monster Vaults.  These would have rare new releases but would pretty much stay in print, much as Essentials are meant to do.  This would get people involved in the game and would supply accessories players want/need.

DM/Setting books:  These would be evocative and well-written books targeted to DMs.  Books like Demonomicon, Planar Handbook, and even setting books would fall into this category.  They would occasionally go out of print as there would certainly be some point where noone else would really buy these books.  

DDI: Primarily, this would offer lots of Dragon content (updated options for classes, new feats, new items, like what they currently do, but with even MORE content.  This merges current Dragon magazine with all of the splat-books, and would get uploaded into the Character builder at the end of each month.) and Dungeon content (delves which incorporate dungeon tiles, full adventures, and new sets of monsters which would get uploaded into the Monster Builder at the end of the month, and House-ruling/DMing advice, subsystems, and other ideas concerning game design.) All Dungeon/Dragon material would go through the full R&D process, as they've recently shifted to.  DDI would also include tools such as a Character Builder (on-line with easy off-line exportability) and a Monster Builder, minimum.  PHB/Monster Vault info would make it into the builders a month or so after release.

Why: DnD maintains a presence in Brick and Mortar stores, though on a smaller scale than currently.  There won't be constant new releases every year.  They'd cycle through a new set of Dungeon Tiles every 4-6 months, and 3-4 new DM-focused books a year.  Player materials could be released in DDI to coincide with DM-focused book releases, thematically.  DDI would be the primary revenue stream using te subscription model.  Most of the Game-designers would work on this project.  The DM-focused books could likely each be done by one or two great writers with a minimal amount of design work involved.  They could publish "Best of Dragon" books every year to get material into non-subscriber's hands.  They could take Adventure Paths published in Dungeon and put out Deluxe Box Sets of the them complete with tokens for the monsters, pull-out maps, and the entire adventure.

This would piss off people who don't want to pay a subscription to play DnD.  Most of the new content would be Subscriber-only.  There would be enough book stuff to play, but not enough for those who like new crunchy bits to experiment with every month or so.  

I'm no business guy, but I think DDI killed the Splat book sales.  That doesn't mean DDI was a bad idea...it just means that focusing on producing books full of crunchy-bits entirely duplicated in the CB was a waste of time, and other books focusing on setting, adventure hooks, and such, could have been a much better venture.  Not to say people don't WANT those feats, build options, and Paragon Paths...just that you should charge them for them via DDI.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 13, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> If they're smart... that material will go straight to Dragon.
> 
> If you announce that generic Character Themes will be released to DDI each and every week, that'll bring bunches of people scrambling to get a subscription.  A whole NEW WAY to add crunch to your character is exactly the kind of thing we SHOULD be getting from Dragon Magazine.
> 
> I mean c'mon... if we got new Themes every month, new Backgrounds every month, new Races like we used to... it'd instantly make Dragon (and the DDI subscription) really worthwhile again.



Yes. That's precisely what I speculated last night shortly after this news broke.


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## moxcamel (Jan 13, 2011)

There's a lot of quotage here that I could "me too," but just in case anyone from WotC happens to put any stock in these forums, let me just add my voice of disappointment to the crowd.  I like that articles are being subjected to peer review now (this is a "well duh!" thing and I'm pretty surprised that it wasn't already happening) but killing the magazine format seriously blows my mind.  I don't even mind that (very likely) most of the content that would have been released in books will now be released online, but killing the most recognizable magazine formats in the hobby just smacks of management decisions being made by people who do not understand the hobby.  This is starting to smell like TSR all over again.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 13, 2011)

I think splat-books are a waste and should be something handled by DDI but the books announced and then cut weren't quite the same as the powers books. 

Seemed like organizing the original PHB content into essentials format and adding proper well explained rules for multi-classing and maybe even hybrid classing of essentials builds. For those of us who don't use DDI and were reinvigorated by the look and design of essentials this was a very desirable book. To see it cut and most likely thrown onto DDI which I find mixed value in is unfortunate.

I wanted a properly updated, reformatted and less expensive PHB to let players peruse and explore. My players will not subscribe to DDI. I myself haven't but I feel this is forcing my hand. Want an updated PHB with rules for handling essentials multi-classing and hybrids? Buy a DDI subscription and have those rules spread out over months and months. As opposed to simply buying the book for $15 and being done with it. 

Whatever. Out with the old and in with the new I suppose.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 13, 2011)

Said it years ago, but it bears repeating: even though I can foresee a time when the game could go entirely digital, I'm not convinced that this is the proper time, that the market is _that_ wired.

Personally, I spend enough of my day in front of screens & keyboards of various types, so I don't want to spend my gaming time in the same situation.  This means the more D&D goes digital, the less I buy, simple equation.  And I'm not alone in this, judging from my own group and the posts of others here.

So, if we continue to see physical PHBs (of some kind), Dragon Compendiums and so forth in bookstores, I'm OK with that.  If not, so be it- they won't get my $$$.

Not that this is some kind of demand or anything, just a statement of the way it is.


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## Mirtek (Jan 13, 2011)

Dungeoneer said:


> A little piece of extra news - WotC_Huscarl has blogged about the reason for the delays with Dungeon & Dragon content.



 Yeah, starting the process, which is basically what was marketed as an advantage of the new online format from the day they announced pulling the license from Paizo and moving them online, totally explains all their past delays


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## Mirtek (Jan 13, 2011)

Anyone still disagreeing with the excellent D&D in it's death spiral analysis from 2 years ago? 

If I hadn't seen most of these prediction already come true last year, I would now be shocked how true they turned out to be


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 13, 2011)

moxcamel said:


> ...but killing the magazine format seriously blows my mind.




Ironically... it's not the loss of the 'magazine format' that bothers me.  I was actually more saddened when the Dragon and Dungeon archives stopped having everything split up by category beneath the weekly listings.

All the magazine format does is make it more difficult to find those articles I want and need.  I need to go into each Table of Contents and scan it to see if it has the article I'm looking for.  When we had the "by category" listings... if I wanted to look at the Miniatures Galleries I could just click on that category and every gallery would appear in a list.  Or if I wanted to look at all the Eberron articles written for Dragon, one click brought all of them together for me to scan through.  Or all the Domains of Dread.  Or all the Bazaar of the Bizarre articles.  Etc. etc.

I don't need my content artificially bound together based on nothing but what month it happened to be released in.  I need my content easily searchable and found.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 13, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Said it years ago, but it bears repeating: even though I can foresee a time when the game could go entirely digital, I'm not convinced that this is the proper time, that the market is _that_ wired.




Barnes & Noble stating that their sales of NOOKcolor and E-Ink devices this Christmas was their biggest best-selling item of all time and their digital sales were 78% higher than last Christmas indicates that we are perhaps further along than you're giving credit for.

Another year and all e-reader devices and tablet computers going full color and able to produce images-- and I think seeing the D&D product line being sold for them will not be far behind.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 13, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Said it years ago, but it bears repeating: even though I can foresee a time when the game could go entirely digital, I'm not convinced that this is the proper time, that the market is _that_ wired.
> 
> Personally, I spend enough of my day in front of screens & keyboards of various types, so I don't want to spend my gaming time in the same situation.  This means the more D&D goes digital, the less I buy, simple equation.  And I'm not alone in this, judging from my own group and the posts of others here.
> 
> ...





I feel exactly the same. I spend my working hours in front of a screen and plenty of my fun time too. Part of why I specifically like D&D is because it isn't digital. I like sitting down with the players, pulling out the PHB, some photocopied sheets and pencils and writing up characters.

I guess now I'm in the minority if WoTC feels no need to cater to those like myself.


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## Mummolus (Jan 13, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Barnes & Noble stating that their sales of NOOKcolor and E-Ink devices this Christmas was their biggest best-selling item of all time and their digital sales were 78% higher than last Christmas indicates that we are perhaps further along than you're giving credit for.
> 
> Another year and all e-reader devices and tablet computers going full color and able to produce images-- and I think seeing the D&D product line being sold for them will not be far behind.



Most e-readers are monochrome right now _on purpose_, because they're trying to replicate the look and feel of a real book. Their market isn't built around full-color, it's built around being as close to a book as possible but better. It's the same reason they're not usually backlit.

(I work for Indigo, fourth largest bookseller in North America - one of the core parts of my job is selling these damned things)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 13, 2011)

> Barnes & Noble stating that their sales of NOOKcolor and E-Ink devices this Christmas was their biggest best-selling item of all time and their digital sales were 78% higher than last Christmas indicates that we are perhaps further along than you're giving credit for.




Hell, I'm planning on obtaining 3 high-end eReaders/tablet computers in the coming year.  (Plus a top-end iPod Classic- so I can tote around my 5K+ CD collection with me- and a Verizon iPhone along the way as well.)

That doesn't mean I want to game with one.  And I say THAT having used a Palm PDA- recently replaced by a top-end iPod Touch- for my PCs of the past few years.

But I still want _books_, not PDFs and the like, for my gaming.  I have enough stuff plugged into the wall being charged, etc. to irrevocably tie my gaming experience to some lithium batteries.  I don't want to be playing a game and get that little warning message, "Battery at 20%."

There is something to be said for having a physical product.


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## The Halfling (Jan 13, 2011)

Mummolus said:


> Most e-readers are monochrome right now _on purpose_, because they're trying to replicate the look and feel of a real book. Their market isn't built around full-color, it's built around being as close to a book as possible but better. It's the same reason they're not usually backlit.
> 
> (I work for Indigo, fourth largest bookseller in North America - one of the core parts of my job is selling these damned things)




Where as I bought the nookcolor so I can read my pdfs in addition to it's normal e-reader capablilties. 

I'm nearly a pure digital DM. I use Masterplan for all my adventure work. I find that my netbook takes up less space, and is less obtrusive than a standard GM screen, module/adventure notes, and a pad of paper. Though you will have to pry my dice from my dead hands. 

While I love books, I find myself reading less and less of the hard copies that I have sitting on my shelves. I would rather pick up my e-reader, tablet, or netbook. I used to be a completionist myself, and while cost hasn't been a factor for a while (esp with Amazon, etc.) I found less and less need to have every book with DDi.  

That said, I think we are at a crossroads, and WotC needs to make a firm and decisive decision as to the course D&D will take with regards to the digital environment. It will be painful, and definitely, regardless of the course chosen, a portion of the existing client bases will be left behind or disgruntled and leave. 

It's this waffling that irks me. hell, they now tout the 100's of ebooks now available for both the Kindle and Nook, on the home page. If the novels are ok to distibute digitally, why the hell is the game content, from ALL editions, taking to long. If it's IP protection, then that reason does not jive. The novels are nothing if not pure IP content.


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## Goonalan (Jan 13, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hell, I'm planning on obtaining 3 high-end eReaders/tablet computers in the coming year.  (Plus a top-end iPod Classic- so I can tote around my 5K+ CD collection with me- and a Verizon iPhone along the way as well.)
> 
> That doesn't mean I want to game with one.  And I say THAT having used a Palm PDA- recently replaced by a top-end iPod Touch- for my PCs of the past few years.
> 
> ...




I agree with everything you say, I'd be a fool not too what with you being a Sharktopus XP wise, but I keep coming back to the thought- I'm not the guy they're aiming to sell their products to, they've already hooked me.

I teach in Higher Education at present, until this academic year I used to teach in Further Education as well- my students, at all levels, don't read books- hell I had to start putting special classes on in which I actually took large groups of degree students to the library, many of whom in the second year of their qualification had never been to the place.

I used to start each terms classes with a series of questionnaires and fun (-ish) hand outs, one of the questions has always been along the lines of tell me in twenty five words about the last book you read this year. This is my last year of asking this question.

If I discounted the Twilight series and Harry Potter books then 75% of my students have read no books- this fact obviously makes me alternatively sad/angry/frustrated etc.

My students quote lines from video games at me, not films or books. Actually some still quote films, I can't remember the last time one of them referenced a book outside of an academic essay.

They have mostly never read the classics, not even the modern classics, hell a good percentage of them have never seen Jaws, Star Wars, Bladerunner (and if you're over 30 then any other film of your youth that you consider a classic)- and that includes the students from the Film & TV degree I teach a chunk of.

My point is cultural references, and my pathway to enlightenment through books and films etc. has, seemingly, been replaced by a different route and media.

My students are not stupid, they sometimes have a limited vocabulary (and are prone to using text/leet speak in their academic writing). They do however possess, use and interact with a enormous amount of electronic data in a myriad forms. There knowledge and capability in this area far far exceeds mine.

These days every hand out I do is made available in an on-line learning environment- I don't print anything, it's all viewed on-line. Informal tests are done on-line, assignments are completed on-line and submitted and critiqued, and re-submitted electronically. Every example I use in a lesson has had to be updated to take account of the fact that my past experiences (books and films) are no longer applicable, obviously I sneak in a few classics here and there but we have to run special sessions for the Film & TV degree to screen the films that changed the world (cinema/screen-wise).

WOTC, as much as I hate it, is aiming for the 21st century and the people that live there, they're the market it seems.

Please note the last bit is not an insult, I just think we're experiencing a little life-lag here, the youth of today IMHO are going to become ever more dependent on electronic/on-line media.

Goonalan


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## caudor (Jan 13, 2011)

Dropping the books introduces a new problem for me.

Reading eZines online is one thing, but reading volumes of material posted online is another.  I can't comfortably huddle over a computer screen for that long.  That's why I buy books.

OK, so e-reader devices are getting popular.  However, most devices I've seen are too small to display D&D books properly (7 to 10 inches).  Is there a e-reader device out there that can display D&D books in full color without all the pinching and zooming?

I would not mind things going electronic if there were devices fit to read the material on (aside from a computer screen).


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## shadzar (Jan 13, 2011)

Mummolus said:


> Most e-readers are monochrome right now _on purpose_, because they're trying to replicate the look and feel of a real book. Their market isn't built around full-color, it's built around being as close to a book as possible but better. It's the same reason they're not usually backlit.
> 
> (I work for Indigo, fourth largest bookseller in North America - one of the core parts of my job is selling these damned things)




Good luck with that as e-readers time has done come and gone because they were too slow considering more functioning fuil computers can do the same thigns and are coming out as tablet PCs that wont cost too much more soon than those readers, so the readers prices will have to drop fast, and the things they "read" will have to compete with a harddrive that can do things offline without fear of having your "book" repossessed and deleted.

Black-and-white as opposed to the calculator gray-and-white would help that emulation, but there is still problems in trying to emulate a book as a book would be with an electronic device. the only gain is the size of your bookshelf decreasing, when the electronic device can do much more, and for that price it should, but doesnt.

I really mean it, good luck selling those things, as I feel bad for you. As for being backlit, that is one of the advantages the electronic device should offer, so you don't have to turn on a light since the e-readers have their own power source. Something handheld gaming systems learned decades ago so you could use the device during a power outage. I wouldn't want to try to read one by candle-light.

As to what you responded to but not this point of it, I dont see the D&D product line being given to anyone else to manage in any way shape or form. If HASBRO cannot control it or it isn't under the total control of WotC, then they don't want anyone else touching it, especially not a digital format, as the recent online character builder should add that emphasis to. They jsut can't control nickle and dime-ing you themselves to take the biggest part that way and have to share the wealth.

Those missing things will appear in DDi, I bet my hat on it. (If I am wrong i will have to buy a hat to give to whoever wants to oppose that bet, and it would be a cheap or ugly one, so if you one it you would have to wear it if you won it. )


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## Almacov (Jan 13, 2011)

I want to own the content I pay for.

If I don't think I'll still be able to dig out and play a game with my friends or children 20 years down the line, I'm not going for it.

If I'm not going to have access to content on my own terms (offline!), that also kills the sale.

A subscription-based, online-tethered game is something I have no interest in. I'm sure there are enough people who do have interest for WotC to make a buck, but... well, I'm satisfied with my decision. 

If they put out physical product I want, I'll still consider picking it up.

_Sincerely,

Player Unable or Unwilling to Get With the Times.

(Does this make me a grumpy nostalgic grognard now?)_


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## The Halfling (Jan 13, 2011)

I don't see e-readers as an obsolete piece of technology, anymore than a calculator is obsolete. Sure tablets and pc's can do more, with the right apps, but sometimes you want something that does one thing, and one thing well. Basic e-readers like the Kindle and regular Nook offer the storage capability of a pc (libraries of books stored locally) with a weight and battery life that a pc just cannot touch.

Tablets may be that bridge between the two (I myself can't wait for the Android 3.0 tablets), but for some things you just want that ready to go, simple device. 

that 's the route my wife took. She saw my nookcolor, and loved it, but purchased the regular nook, as did my daughter, BECAUSE neither needed all the extra functionality.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 13, 2011)

Almacov said:


> (Does this make me a grumpy nostalgic grognard now?)[/I]




Kinda.  Yeah.  

In 10 years time you'll still play 4E with the hardcover books the same way we currently still have players playing 1E Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.  Not that there's anything wrong with that.

But you are one of the minority that WotC is probably willing to give up in exchange for the other two they hope to pick up by being completely digital.


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## Riastlin (Jan 13, 2011)

Well, I can't say that this is definitely a good thing.  Frankly, I'm sure that a big reason for this move is a general decline in sales.

However, I also don't think its entirely bad.  One of the WotC guys (I think it was Huscarl but not sure) stated matter of factly that the future of the D&D brand was in digital distribution.  This was over a year ago if I recall.  He said this not as an employee but as a blogger.  Simply stating that it was inevitable giving the changing dynamic.

What this move does do; however, is give them an opportunity to guage the digital/subscription based market without having to commit fully to it.  Much as the Book of Nine Swords was a test for 4th Ed. mechanics, so too could this be a test for future distribution.

From a personal standpoint, I echo what a number of others have said, in particular with the crunch.  The splat books especially really have become obsolete.  Right now if I want to build a fighter, I don't pull out PHB, Martial Power, Martial Power 2, AV, and a host of Dragon articles in order to make my character.  Instead I fire up the CB and all of that is right there for me already.  I don't own either of the "Heroes of . . . " books, but I am fully able to make a Mage, Slayer, Knight, etc.  

The fact of the matter is that all those books have a very minimal level of readability to me right now.  I'm just not going to read through the Fighter Chapter front to back.  I do agree that the "fluff" books are still viable in the book format as they are much more readable.  But even then I could probably survive.  Even with all of these DDI materials though, I still print out my character sheet and leave the electronic devices at home.  Nothing is forcing me to play online (unless I cannot find a group local . . . in which case, online is a great resource).

Even my mom, who took roughly 3 years to figure out how to turn on my TV (admittedly she only visited a few times a year) now has a Nook Color and is taking Nook classes (at 65 its hard for her to learn something new).  If she can convert to reading her newspaper and romance novels on a Nook, I'm pretty sure I can handle a move to digital distribution as well, be it an IPad, Nook, or something else.


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## Keldryn (Jan 13, 2011)

I'm a bit conflicted about this, but for the most part I don't like it.

I have to agree that publishing more books which primarily consist of new character options (powers, feats, etc) doesn't make a whole lot of sense, as the Character Builder has proven to be very popular and is a lot easier than searching through half a dozen books to create or level up a character.

Unfortunately, the CB tends to just turn any new character options into more entries in an already massive and often overwhelming list of powers and feats.  The original *context* of those options is frequently obscured or lost altogether.  If a _Dragon_ article features a new "school of fighting" for martial characters, the powers and feats associated with that write-up typically just get added to the CB as yet more options, without much of the story elements joining them.  There is a list of "Dragonmark Feats" in the CB, but again the context is missing, as there is no mention of which dragonmarked house is associated with that dragonmark, which race comprises that house, or that a PC not of that race is probably the only individual in the world to manifest a dragonmark in that manner.  (This does trace back to the 4e EPG however, as the descriptions for those dragonmark feats don't mention houses or races either; you have to flip back to the intro section to match them up.  The original 3.5 Eberron book not only mentions the house in each dragonmark feat write-up, but also briefly touches on how marked house members have used their powers in the world and even the associated guilds that non-marked members belong to.)

If most future "splatbook" expansions are published digitally, the story elements will of course still be there to read.  However, it feels like the CB is becoming the focus for creating D&D characters, to the point where many players don't buy the book or even bother to read through the new options in their original context.  Everybody will of course approach it differently, but for me the massive lists of powers and feats in the CB don't do a whole lot to spark my imagination or suggest interesting character stories.  

On top of that, I spend my workdays sitting in front of a computer screen all day (I'm a programmer).  I play a fair amount of video games (or at least I used to before the baby came along last year).  I feel rather over-saturated in my exposure to electronic media, and I find myself longing for some time when I'm not plugged in to the digital world.  I want to be able to prep for a D&D game without sitting at a computer or reading a PDF off of a screen.  I want to spend an evening every couple of weeks sitting around a table with friends who are physically present and who are not distracted every 15 minutes by instant messages and cell phone calls.  I want at least one leisure activity that isn't polluted by the need to be "plugged in" 24/7.  

If they more or less cease publishing physical books, then I'm likely finished with being a customer.  Reading off a tablet screen or an eReader is not the same experience as reading a physical book (which may be a plus for some, but not for me).  It's probably a good business decision on their part, but it no longer meets my needs as a consumer.


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## Primal (Jan 13, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> While I sympathize with all of you who are  clinging to the idea of actual print material... we as a culture are  moving on from it.  Magazines are going away and being replaced with  websites and blogs... books are being replaced with their digital  versions on Kindles and Nooks.  The need, desire and requirement for  printed books is over.  And if it saves time and money for D&D to  follow that river towards the completely digital sea... then that's the  way it's going to go.




We are? Well, I'm a librarian, and I have to disagree a bit with your  statement that "books are being replaced with their digital versions on  Kindles and Nooks" -- they aren't, at least over here. First of all,  there are still pricing and copyright/IP issues with e-books; many  publishers around here are charging the full price (minus a few euros,  at most) for digital copies, and regardless of digitalization permeating  our society, people feel a bit leery about paying that much for an  "intangible" book. Likewise for digital magazines. Although the annual  book sales have gone up, e-books are not doing that well; IIRC only  5-10% of the national total sales consist of books in digital format. 

And speaking as a librarian, we still have serious licensing issues with  many, many publishers; some public libraries *do* have e-book readers,  but even the largest e-book collection in my country (i.e. at the  library I work at) consists of something like 500-1000 titles (can't  recall the exact number, and I'm too lazy to look it up ATM). Also, not  every title is available (in fact, publishers seem to be quite reluctant  on, and like I said above, they're relatively expensive and we don't  even get the same rights we do with physical books (sadly, IP and  copyright laws are pretty hazy on digital content, especially in  relation to library services and collections). There are ongoing  discussions with publishers and the organizations representing IP  holders, but so far we haven't found a lot of common ground. In addition  to this, what makes both libraries and customers a bit scared of  digital books is the fear of change; namely, formats may change and  upcoming readers may not support the books you have purchased. With  traditional books this problem does not exist. 

Gamers may be more comfortable than the general public with the e-book,  and gaming books may make this transition faster than any other type of  literature. However, I'd dare to estimate that it will take at least  5-10 years before e-book will take the world by storm, if even then. And  let me say that I'm not totally convinced of using digital tools only  for gaming; not only do I prefer physical dungeon tiles and minis to  computer screen with fuzzy tokens, but I'm also aware that sometimes  your internet connection and software can be unreliable, too (e.g. we  tried MapTools in one of the groups I game with, and it totally crashed  in the middle of the session; not even our IT experts could save the  day, and thus we gamed without a battlemap or minis/tokens).

So, if you ask me, "the need, desire and requirement for printed books" is not yet over -- not by a long shot.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 13, 2011)

Goonalan said:


> I agree with everything you say, I'd be a fool not too what with you being a Sharktopus XP wise, but I keep coming back to the thought- I'm not the guy they're aiming to sell their products to, they've already hooked me.
> _<snip many good, well stated points>_




I'm both with you and ahead of you: when I was in my first year of law school (back in the 1990s), I often found myself explaining cultural allusions like "sword of Damocles" to my classmates, most of whom only read magazines or newspapers unless forced to for class.  I actually caused a traffic jam of unbelieving rubberneckers when I was spotted reading a novel while eating lunch in the school cafeteria.  Books were for class or work, not leisure.

BTW, I found it amusing- not surprising*- that "the kids" haven't seen _Blade Runner_ (along with certain seminal cyberpunk works) since that culture is essentially what we're headed for.




* I've seen many stories like this, including the one about when Paul McCartney "first felt old."


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 13, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> While I sympathize with all of you who are clinging to the idea of actual print material... we as a culture are moving on from it.  Magazines are going away and being replaced with websites and blogs... books are being replaced with their digital versions on Kindles and Nooks.  The need, desire and requirement for printed books is over.  And if it saves time and money for D&D to follow that river towards the completely digital sea... then that's the way it's going to go.




All digital? That will be fun for the 30% of the world that has good internet access. Sucks for the other 70%. Try to remember that. 

Granted, WOTC sells mostly to that 30%, but even still, a completely digital experience is still a long ways away.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 13, 2011)

Primal said:


> And let me say that I'm not totally convinced of using digital tools only  for gaming; not only do I prefer physical dungeon tiles and minis to  computer screen with fuzzy tokens, but I'm also aware that sometimes  your internet connection and software can be unreliable, too (e.g. we  tried MapTools in one of the groups I game with, and it totally crashed  in the middle of the session; not even our IT experts could save the  day, and thus we gamed without a battlemap or minis/tokens).




Well, I wasn't talking the actual game itself being digital... I merely meant the manner to which you have access to the rules to play the game would be digital.(Of course, the VTT will allow people to play digitally if they so chose, but the rules themselves are still capable and geared towards the tabletop).  And in that case... I still believe the number of people who can/will bring a smartphone, tablet or e-reader to their game table instead of a backpack full of books will only increase over time.  The backpack will still hold the dice, tiles, minis, tokens and character sheets... but most rulebooks will be left home.

And as far as the whole book versus e-reader thing... yes, libraries and the books within them still outnumber their digital counterparts.  But I would venture that those numbers are and will continue to swing in the other direction as we continue on over the next few years.  It's the same reason why physical CDs and DVDs are dropping like flies... downloading on demand is easier, cheaper, and faster.  And the book industry is following along right behind them.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 13, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> All digital? That will be fun for the 30% of the world that has good internet access. Sucks for the other 70%. Try to remember that.
> 
> Granted, WOTC sells mostly to that 30%, but even still, a completely digital experience is still a long ways away.




That 30% is increasing every year.  And like you say... if you sell 90% of your product to those 30%... you know which way the wind blows.

But I'm sure WotC will keep a token amount of product on the shelves for people to purchase for at least a little while... if I'm not mistaken, WotC has said that their intention was to keep the two Heroes books, DM Kit and Monster Vault on the shelves ad infinitum.  So those folks outside of that 30% who can only access the game via ordering them and having them shipped will still have a base game to play with.

But if you think they're ever going to mass produce something like Arcane Power 2 in hardcover print format ever again, I'd say you were being way too optimistic.  I just don't see it happening.  The odds of the bottom falling out of the digital database access format is just too long to bet on in my opnion.


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## UnknownAtThisTime (Jan 13, 2011)

The Halfling said:


> I don't see e-readers as an obsolete piece of technology, anymore than a calculator is obsolete. Sure tablets and pc's can do more, with the right apps, but sometimes you want something that does one thing, and one thing well. Basic e-readers like the Kindle and regular Nook offer the storage capability of a pc (libraries of books stored locally) with a weight and battery life that a pc just cannot touch.
> 
> Tablets may be that bridge between the two (I myself can't wait for the Android 3.0 tablets), but for some things you just want that ready to go, simple device.
> 
> that 's the route my wife took. She saw my nookcolor, and loved it, but purchased the regular nook, as did my daughter, BECAUSE neither needed all the extra functionality.




The Halfling, off topic I know, but how do you liek reading pdfs on that Nook Color? Specifically how hard is it to read an issue of Dungeon or Dragon? I am considering a nook color, and D&D will play a bigger part in that decision than maybe it should...

Have you looked in to rooting that Nook? Since it is Android, it may already do what you want.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 13, 2011)

ki11erDM said:


> What does that even mean?  I am a 100% sure that D&D ‘sales numbers’ will drop, because it won’t be traditionally publishing 2 to 3 books ever month ever again.  They are moving to an online format that will make the idea of ‘sales numbers’ immaterial.   They will only keep Essentials in the stores along with ‘fluffy’ books like campaign settings.
> Everything else is moving online.




To be honest, it may not matter. BUT, as the OSR group has a booth at Gen Con, and Paizo continues to sell their core books at $9.99 PDF and in hard copy, and support the OGL, people, NEW gamers, tend to come in through print products.

WoTC taking their products off the shelves for months at a time while the competition is sharpening its axses? Especially competition that already has an easy in to lasped players n that they're publishing the actual system these lapsed players generally want to play.

And that's something WoTC has been trying to capture with the whole Essentials line and its numerous flashbacks to the older material.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 13, 2011)

WoTC also said that they were going to reprint the Player's Handbook with errata.



Using WotC words as a method to enact persuassion, especially with their recent track record, is akin to reverse psychology.



DEFCON 1 said:


> That 30% is increasing every year.  And like you say... if you sell 90% of your product to those 30%... you know which way the wind blows.
> 
> But I'm sure WotC will keep a token amount of product on the shelves for people to purchase for at least a little while... if I'm not mistaken, WotC has said that their intention was to keep the two Heroes books, DM Kit and Monster Vault on the shelves ad infinitum.  So those folks outside of that 30% who can only access the game via ordering them and having them shipped will still have a base game to play with.
> 
> But if you think they're ever going to mass produce something like Arcane Power 2 in hardcover print format ever again, I'd say you were being way too optimistic.  I just don't see it happening.  The odds of the bottom falling out of the digital database access format is just too long to bet on in my opnion.


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## Zaukrie (Jan 13, 2011)

I have a Nook color. It is not a great pdf reader, I'd prefer a table the size of the iPad for that. But, I did read an entire issue on the Nook, no problem.

I would 100% either wait for the Xoom, or test the Nook.

For reading, I think the Nook is a better size (books and stuff). For other things, I'm thinking I want that Xoom or iPad2.

I have not yet broken the Nook, I'm confident B&N will be releasing an update in the next month or so that will allow me to use it more as a tablet than I can now.

It is a very nice piece of hardware (have not tried the audio yet).


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## Chainsaw Mage (Jan 13, 2011)

Jan van Leyden said:


> I really don't know how to judge this new information. Two different scenarios come to mind:
> 
> *Dark Clouds Gather*
> The turnover of D&D is dwindling. . . .
> ...




I find your "Sunny Side Up" scenario just as depressing as your "Dark Clouds Gather" scenario.


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## Chainsaw Mage (Jan 13, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> For me personally... my response to the fact these books are cancelled is 'good riddance'.
> 
> I don't want a completely separate source of game rule information like books... a source that is in no way connected to the main trunk of D&D information, which is their rules database (until they get around to adding the info a month or so after it's been put on the shelves).  In fact... it'd be nice to think that perhaps in a perfect world... a crunch article fully vetted by R&D would get posted onto the website and _simultaneously_ get added to the Rule Compendium, CB, MT and VTT (whichever ones apply).  THAT would be the best case scenario all around.




Man, I can't help but remember with fondness those days that the "main trunk of D&D information" were three books.  They were called the "Player's Handbook", the "Dungeon Master's Guide," and the "Monster Manual".

Those were good times.


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## lutecius (Jan 14, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> And if it saves time and money for D&D to follow that river towards the completely digital sea... then that's the way it's going to go.



yeah, with their paranoia about piracy that actually made them pull the pdf versions of printed books (even those that were already online) and their track record with digital initiatives, I see that going very well.

somehow, I doubt many subscribers will buy the version of the "digital sea" they're heading to (more and more dependency on active subscription, fewer off-line services and buggier functionalities for the same price...)


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## shadzar (Jan 14, 2011)

The Halfling said:


> I don't see e-readers as an obsolete piece of technology, anymore than a calculator is obsolete. Sure tablets and pc's can do more, with the right apps, but sometimes you want something that does one thing, and one thing well. Basic e-readers like the Kindle and regular Nook offer the storage capability of a pc (libraries of books stored locally) with a weight and battery life that a pc just cannot touch.




I love unitaskers, the right tool for the right job and all, but that is just the problem. Electronic devices in this day and age that do only one thing are obsolete.

I would love to find a cell phone today without all this wasted space for CCD, SMS, etc crap that just is a mobile device for talking to someone else. They don't make them anymore because people don't want unitaskers because of lack of focus. The technology created AD(H)D is causing the technology to need more things to keep these peoples attention on it to kep spending on the technology like "apps".

I don't want a computer that only does one thing, when I already have one that does much much more, especially not one with a proprietary file format because of some DRM, that forces me to use only that device and should that device foul up ALL my money on the "books" is wasted unless I buy an entire new device. That is why the world embraced the PDF format so widely because it was cross-platform compatible and could be used on whatever device you were on at the time by moving it to that device. WotC doesn't want you to "share" files even with yourself, because copying the file to have on each computer you own would be in violation of copyright as technically you are supposed to NOT copy it in the first place, but the gray area is if you do, you are actually supposed to be moving it, so you only own one copy, which means deleting it form the other location and if you need it there again, you must move it back...legally.

Also the e-readers I have seen just don't perform what an e-book should in the form of advantages for reference materials. The are basically digital micro-fiche machines.

electronic reference book needs:
-searchability
-full color display of diagrams and illustrations to depict things in the text
-useable without connection to the power company in case of power outages
-full offline ability to use the material in case of network outages
-accessibility features for differently-abled persons

These are jsut a few things an electronic reader would need to be better than a book, other than mass storage capability. The ability to delete bought books as has been done is a GIANT turn-off for many, as they could think lots of other problems are being had from device failure, payment error so the "book" was repossessed, and mountains of other things that you just wouldn't know from the thing not working all of a sudden. Granted some could be simple like battery charge depleted.

The last one touches maybe a sensitive topic, and one D&D has never really done anything about, but if moving to all digital and the e-book format, they would ahve too, as a full-blown computer can have these things installed to allow text-to-speech, as blind persons can read braille books or listen to books on tape; but I havent yet seen an e-reader, that actually will read to you. Do any of them have text-to-speech?

You cannot install "apps" to these simple readers to do other things with. WebTV was a cute idea, but it died out because it was basically a reading tool, and most people want more interaction that the ability to read, but it had more functionality than any of the e-readers, and some of the same problems.

The medium may change to digital for D&D, but these e-books just don't have what it takes and people want them to do for gamers. Character Builder wont work on it (if/when it does work), the entire DDi wont work on it since it is a simple reader, you still need an intermediary device to get from the website to the reader.

I am sorry to say, that the "duplicate a book in electronic format, but able to hold a library" would have been a good idea 20 years ago, but today it jsut doesnt do enough as a device and was outmoded by laptops and these last-gen phones before it ever hit the markets.


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## The Halfling (Jan 14, 2011)

Zaukrie said:


> I have a Nook color. It is not a great pdf reader, I'd prefer a table the size of the iPad for that. But, I did read an entire issue on the Nook, no problem.
> 
> I would 100% either wait for the Xoom, or test the Nook.
> 
> ...




I concur w/ Zaukrie. 

While I can read Dragon and Dungeon mags on the nookcolor (thank goodness for landscape orientation capability), it's not 100% for displaying pdfs. It doesn't use Adobe reader for android, but rather Quickoffice.  

While I thought of rooting the darn thing, I'm waiting on B&N to implement the marketplace to update the device to add a little more functionality in this regards.

I too am looking forward to the Xoom. While the nookcolor can be rooted, I would rather keep it as is, and use a proper tablet for other functions. 

Still, for an e-reader, it's not bad. Having a backit LCD helps tremendously when reading in bed and in dim or low light. I've encountered no eye strain myself, and I have horrible vision w/o my glasses.


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## The Halfling (Jan 14, 2011)

shadzar said:


> I love unitaskers, the right tool for the right job and all, but that is just the problem. Electronic devices in this day and age that do only one thing are obsolete.
> 
> I would love to find a cell phone today without all this wasted space for CCD, SMS, etc crap that just is a mobile device for talking to someone else. They don't make them anymore because people don't want unitaskers because of lack of focus. The technology created AD(H)D is causing the technology to need more things to keep these peoples attention on it to kep spending on the technology like "apps".
> 
> ...




No a simple e-reader would not do most of these things. Most are designed and intended for lay people, not tech fiends. More advanced readers with proper OS's could easy do all these things. Full offline capability is already there, and the files are stored locally once you purchase them, and battery life is @ 10 hours. 



shadzar said:


> The last one touches maybe a sensitive topic, and one D&D has never really done anything about, but if moving to all digital and the e-book format, they would ahve too, as a full-blown computer can have these things installed to allow text-to-speech, as blind persons can read braille books or listen to books on tape; but I havent yet seen an e-reader, that actually will read to you. Do any of them have text-to-speech?




If I remember correctly, the Kindle had this feature, but was forced to disable it by the publishers. It apparently infringed on their selection and sales of audio books. So it was thought of, but capitalism reared it's head.



shadzar said:


> You cannot install "apps" to these simple readers to do other things with. WebTV was a cute idea, but it died out because it was basically a reading tool, and most people want more interaction that the ability to read, but it had more functionality than any of the e-readers, and some of the same problems.




True on most e-ink readers you can't install apps, but some of the LCD/Android-based readers, like the Cruz Micro and Pandigital Micro have marketplaces set up that do enable this. So if you want more functionality out of a device, you can..if you spend the money. $130 for an e-ink "dumb" reader, $120-$250 for a "smarter" Android-based reader, or $500 plus for a full fledged tablet like the Xoom or iPad. 



shadzar said:


> The medium may change to digital for D&D, but these e-books just don't have what it takes and people want them to do for gamers. Character Builder wont work on it (if/when it does work), the entire DDi wont work on it since it is a simple reader, you still need an intermediary device to get from the website to the reader.






shadzar said:


> I am sorry to say, that the "duplicate a book in electronic format, but able to hold a library" would have been a good idea 20 years ago, but today it jsut doesnt do enough as a device and was outmoded by laptops and these last-gen phones before it ever hit the markets.




Possibly true, but 20 years go portable memory size was no where near the stability, capability or size to make this feasible. And as for laptops and next gen phones as a suitable replacement is not realistic. I have an android phone, and reading on that screen is horrible. It's not a quality but a size issue.  And as I have said before, laptops have the capability in spades but not the longevity of power. Ease of use and instant gratification are the selling points for e-readers. 5-10 sec from power up to start reading a book....no laptop can do that. I will agree that tablets, designed like the iPad (and hopefully the Android 3.0 tablets) may give the e-reader a run, provided cost is not a factor. And that is a big factor.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 14, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> But if you think they're ever going to mass produce something like Arcane Power 2 in hardcover print format ever again, I'd say you were being way too optimistic.  I just don't see it happening.  The odds of the bottom falling out of the digital database access format is just too long to bet on in my opnion.




I really don't understand the last sentence at all.

But for the rest, those of us who use the Internet for everything tend to think the Internet Is everything. For them, it may be. 

But going with your argument, how is WOTC selling essentials? Online? Nope. It is in game stores and big box retailers, and those, I need to point out, are not digital places. 

I am glad all those looking at digital initiatives as a nirvana are so confident about tteir future earnings and lifestyle they can wed themselves to 9.99 a month for the rest of their natural lives for DDI access. Or all the other stuff that is behind paywalls. 

Books are still out there, and I cannot see them going away soon. Maybe they will be less important, but saying htey are a waste of time is jsut not logical.


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## Dausuul (Jan 14, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> Books are still out there, and I cannot see them going away soon. Maybe they will be less important, but saying htey are a waste of time is jsut not logical.




It's not that books _per se_ are a waste of time; it's a question of return on investment. There's a big up-front cost to creating a physical book. You have to typeset it, pay for cover and interior art, arrange for distribution, and do a print run, and thanks to the way bookstores and publishers do business, you eat the cost for any of those books that end up sitting on shelves. With so many people now relying on DDI for their regular dose of crunch, it's quite possible that the sales of a typical splatbook have fallen below the point where it's worth the up-front cost of printing.

The core manuals will stay in print, but there won't be an endless crunch-stream in book form any more. If 90% of crunch-stream buyers have switched to DDI, this is a logical move. Kind of hard on the other 10%, but that's capitalism for you.

(Of course, it's also possible that the books are still profitable in an absolute sense, but the D&D budget simply won't accommodate that up-front cost. If this is the case, it's very bad news.)


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## Mengu (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm not sure the discussion for book vs e-book, and some of the proof presented is necessarily any indication for the issue at hand. We are talking about a game. First and foremost, D&D is a game. It's not a book. And that's quite a difference.

So ideally we should not be looking for or asking for the best way to deliver D&D books, whether they should be paper or digital. We should be asking for the best way to deliver the D&D game. What that is, I don't know, and even if I had made up my mind on what it should be, it would still be debatable.

"Best way to deliver" of course is a relative concept as well, it's impossible to please everyone. But the important aspects I think we all love and cherish are that we play it face to face, at a table, with dice, and we get to do some role playing, immerse ourselves as adventurers in a fantasy world, and resolve some heroic action with a group of like-minded friends.

The first PHB I borrowed from my first DM is still fresh in my memory. I was in love with that book. It was the best thing since legos. So I can see where the attachment to books (or the red box nostalgia) are coming from.

But if there is some better way to consume D&D (using the WotC lingo), we should be open to it. Sadly I don't have confidence that there is a plan for the future of 4e. The plan for all I know is to try different ideas until something fits (both with us consumers and the financial expectations).

It's a rough road ahead, this switch to soft media will shake things up a bit. It may take a whole edition (or even a change of hands for the product) to get it going smoothly. But in the meantime, the best thing we can do as the community is to tell them what we like, don't like, and would like to see.


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## Korgoth (Jan 14, 2011)

DDI, 'eBooks', 'eReaders' and all that trash can go to Hell and die. Print your words on actual cellulose or **** off and take your 'products' with you.

Hey, I really dig the internet. I really, really dig Skype. Search engines and all that stuff are great. But Skype is not as good as being in person, Wikipedia is not as good as an actual scholarly treatment (in fact, there's no comparison since Wikipedia is often blatantly wrong), and serious information that is to be taken seriously is found in _books_. If it's not worth printing in an actual book, it's probably not worth reading.


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## Quickleaf (Jan 14, 2011)

Well I for one am not letting the near total lack of books and poor quality digital offerings turn me off to D&D this year. There's *sooo* much more to the hobby than that. Like dice! And pencils!

And there are things to look forward to... there is Cryptic Studio's awesome D&D video game, AND the long- awaited 3rd D&D movie to restore my brand confidence!

...wait for it......


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## the Jester (Jan 14, 2011)

I am so not interested in a version of D&D without books. I have found that I hardly read any DDI content because it's on a screen, whereas if it were in a magazine in my hands I would devour it. More and more I am realizing that I get less enjoyment out of the electronic offerings, even if I (used to) get significant utility out of them.


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## caudor (Jan 14, 2011)

The problem with DDI content for me is not that I don't like the content.  It's purely an ergonomic issue for me.

I can't read in at a computer long enough to enjoy it.  I remember curling up with my hard copy D&D magazines and getting lost in the content.  It's just hard to do that when I'm not comfortable...simple as that.

If I could solve this problem, I'd be good to go with online content.  I'm looking for my solution, but I'm not sure which direction WotC is headed right now.  Seems to be digital, but format is important to know too before investing in expensive hardware.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 14, 2011)

Yes, the real question is how to deliver game details in a way that is good for the customer, and good for WOTC's bottom line.

I like the book format, even with errata, and even though I have basically permanantly shelved my MMI and MMII for 4E as there have been such great monster changes. 

DDI and such does not hold my interest at all, nor does looking at stuff from online sources. Lots of people put out 4E content. Kobold Quarterly is one. But for me they might as well not bother, harsh as that is.

But how to put stuff out? Taht is a good question, and I really have no answer.


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## vagabundo (Jan 14, 2011)

Korgoth said:


> DDI, 'eBooks', 'eReaders' and all that trash can go to Hell and die. Print your words on actual cellulose or **** off and take your 'products' with you.
> 
> Hey, I really dig the internet. I really, really dig Skype. Search engines and all that stuff are great. But Skype is not as good as being in person, Wikipedia is not as good as an actual scholarly treatment (in fact, there's no comparison since Wikipedia is often blatantly wrong), and serious information that is to be taken seriously is found in _books_. If it's not worth printing in an actual book, it's probably not worth reading.




lol Get back into the basement, old man. Who let you out?


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## I'm A Banana (Jan 14, 2011)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Wikipedia is not as good as an actual scholarly treatment (in fact, there's no comparison since Wikipedia is often blatantly wrong)




The scholars disagree. 

Though I agree with the endpoint of your argument. D&D doesn't need to chase the tail of the latest technological wonder that the press gets a gadget-boner about. 

It's probably about time a large chunk of the rules did move online, though. What that means for piracy, accessibility, and the future of physical products is still being felt out, but I think the online stuff can be seen as an _adjunct_ to the main business of selling things, rather than a replacement for it.


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## ExploderWizard (Jan 14, 2011)

Machete don't rent TTRPGs.


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## Scribble (Jan 14, 2011)

renau1g said:


> I wonder what Scribble thinks of this, he's typically a "look on the brightside" kind of person...




[MENTION=54810]renau1g[/MENTION] 

Sorry- I've been at a week long company get together/conference (complete with an open bar every night) so I've been kind of out of it! 

Overall- Meh I was looking forward to those books, and also like the new soft cover format, so that's annoying... But I also don't think it's quite as "sky is falling" as a lot of people seem to. 

I don't particularly agree that there needs to be an army of monthly source books for a game to survive- in fact I think that tends to lead to the designers getting burned out more quickly, and the players getting tired of things more quickly.

I'd be happy, as I've said before, if they let Essentials mostly stand on its own, and started releasing other flavors of 4e in Essentials and Gamma World style... Changes to the game, that don't really pull it into the realm of a new edition, but change things enough that playing it really feels like a new experience. D&D for every taste so to speak. 

Any expansion for these games could be through DDI, or the rare sourcebook, or expansion pack.

I enjoy change though. I think change breeds opportunity and a way to try different experiences- It excites me! Sure, sometimes change can be dangerous... But I think no change is even worse. 

I don't really think, (despite edition changes) that the gaming "industry" as a whole has really changed much since the 80s- and this is a very bad thing.  (I'll save these thoughts for another thread though.)


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 14, 2011)

I think right now many of us are arguing different things.

I totally agree that the idea of sitting down with a D&D book and just reading it is a great thing and is something many of us wouldn't want to give up.  But the point to remember here is _what is in that book_ that you wish to do that with is what is important.  A book of mainly fluff can support being printed and put on shelves.  The Campaign Setting books, the Manual of the Planes, Open Grave etc.  Because right now there is no place in the WotC online toolbox to put that information in, other than really condensing them and make them Dragon/Dungeon articles.  But those books are way too big to be handle like that in this current point in time.

But the books whose primary purpose is _game mechanics_?  Absolutely, those could be taken down from the shelves and moved online. Do any of you "sit down to read" your Adventurer's Vault?  Or pick up your Player's Handbook and read the Powers sections of all eight classes?  Now if you do, more power to you... but I have a feeling that you'd be in the minority.  I would venture a guess that most people that subscribe to DDI and who want to look at the powers for a 23rd level Invoker will go straight to the Character Builder or Rules Compendium before ever picking up their hardcover PHII.  Some of you might of course.  Especially those of you who don't currently subscribe.  But those of us who do, will usually go with the most efficient way possible, which is the online tools for game content.

And when you consider that the cost of buying a year's subscription to DDI is about the same as buying 3 hardcover D&D books a year off of Amazon (with their discounted prices), except that the subscription is all profit for WotC whereas they only make a small percentage of that from printing (what with the printer, the shipper, and the bookseller all getting their cut)... they will more than make up for the loss of the few people who only want to "own" things they buy.  Obviously I don't know the actual numbers, but I would venture a guess that one year's subscription would make up for the loss of 3 hardcover book sales to that one person who refuses to come along the digital river.

So I completely understand why people are resistant to the idea of game books no longer being books... but from a cost to profit point of view it just makes too much sense not to continue in this path.  Keep the base game books printed and on the shelves so that it remains in the periphery of people walking through Barnes & Noble or their local game shop, and you can still put the other fluff books on the shelves as well, as they are also cool to read and flip through.  But move all the "extra" crunch stuff to DDI and the online tools where those of us who will actually use it... will actually use it.    After all... it's not that copy of Martial Power 2 on the bookshelf that is going to inspire a person to play the game who hasn't yet.  So having it there is kind of pointless based on the cost it took to get it there.


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## the Jester (Jan 14, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> But the books whose primary purpose is _game mechanics_?  Absolutely, those could be taken down from the shelves and moved online. Do any of you "sit down to read" your Adventurer's Vault?  Or pick up your Player's Handbook and read the Powers sections of all eight classes?  Now if you do, more power to you... but I have a feeling that you'd be in the minority.




If I hadn't bought the PH3, no way in hell would I try to understand what an ardent or psion does based on a reading of DDI. It's basically not a friendly way to gain information- it's a pain in the ass trying to put the pieces together.

I think moving to an increasingly electronic form of distribution is a terrible mistake, because WotC doesn't seem to be able to handle their current electronic offerings. Why on earth would I have faith that moving more and more stuff to their least successful (in the sense of "easy and fun to access and use information") channel will improve anything? 

Certainly, this isn't D&D's death knell, but it's looking like the death knell of many people's willingness to spend money on D&D.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 14, 2011)

> So I completely understand why people are resistant to the idea of game books no longer being books... but from a cost to profit point of view it just makes too much sense not to continue in this path.




As one in the IP biz, I'm 100% sure that Digitization is the way to go...it's virtually inevitable and cost effective.

Where I disagree is whether most products- RPGs included- should be digital ONLY.

For a variety of reasons, I honestly feel that RPGs and similar products need to maintain physical existence in commercial spaces. PoD simply doesn't satisfy my concerns, including the shifting of costs from the provider (who can make physical products better for less money due to efficiencies of scale) to the consumer (who cannot).


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## Scribble (Jan 14, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> As one in the IP biz, I'm 100% sure that Digitization is the way to go...it's virtually inevitable and cost effective.
> 
> Where I disagree is whether most products- RPGs included- should be digital ONLY.
> 
> For a variety of reasons, I honestly feel that RPGs and similar products need to maintain physical existence in commercial spaces. PoD simply doesn't satisfy my concerns, including the shifting of costs from the provider (who can make physical products better for less money due to efficiencies of scale) to the consumer (who cannot).




Well, there's definitely a demand for physical RPG products... My question I guess overall is is that demand coming from new blood, or from the same old crew it's been coming from over the years? (A shrinking crew as people get older and loose interest, lack time to play, die off, etc...)

If 2, then my question is Would content delivered in new ways, along with new ways to experience D&D bring new blood into the game?


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## The Halfling (Jan 14, 2011)

the Jester said:


> If I hadn't bought the PH3, no way in hell would I try to understand what an ardent or psion does based on a reading of DDI. It's basically not a friendly way to gain information- it's a pain in the ass trying to put the pieces together.
> 
> I think moving to an increasingly electronic form of distribution is a terrible mistake, because WotC doesn't seem to be able to handle their current electronic offerings. Why on earth would I have faith that moving more and more stuff to their least successful (in the sense of "easy and fun to access and use information") channel will improve anything?
> 
> Certainly, this isn't D&D's death knell, but it's looking like the death knell of many people's willingness to spend money on D&D.




but how is a class that is presented in a physical book and different than a full class build presented in a fashion like the Executioner assassin?

Each one of those classes could be broken out of the PHB and portrayed in DDi just as well, and all the fluff associated with the Psionic Power source could be detailed in a single article. All that changes is the medium of presentaion. 

Now if you are speaking of the Compendium rather than just DDi in general, then I would agree than the Compendium is sparse on details and fluff, but a simple hyperlink contained in the entry to the relevant article/s would help in that regard.

I do understand though that an individual's comfort level plays a significant part in this. Quite a few people want to own what they purchase, be it a physical produce or electronic format. I do myself to some extent. I just see physical product, at least with regards to crunch, as a wasteful and inefficient format. I spent too many years, especially in the 3E era, lugging around a backpack full of books, just so I can reference 1 or 2 items from each. If the technology exists to allow me to carry my entire library of game books in a 1lb device, then I feel that technology should be taken advantage of.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 14, 2011)

the Jester said:


> If I hadn't bought the PH3, no way in hell would I try to understand what an ardent or psion does based on a reading of DDI. It's basically not a friendly way to gain information- it's a pain in the ass trying to put the pieces together.




Which is why putting new classes with all-new mechanics that need to be explained on the bookshelves makes sense, and I wouldn't say they would (or should) stop doing that.  But Psionic Power?  Where the only "completely new" information is perhaps a new build class ability?  That could easily appear in a Dragon Magazine article with little to no fuss.  And if this new build was only to appear via DDI... it would inspire more people who want that information to actually buy a subscription, at which point they'd experience what they'd also get from the RC, CB, MT and VTT.



the Jester said:


> I think moving to an increasingly electronic form of distribution is a terrible mistake, because WotC doesn't seem to be able to handle their current electronic offerings. Why on earth would I have faith that moving more and more stuff to their least successful (in the sense of "easy and fun to access and use information") channel will improve anything?




Now this is completely different.  You're not arguing that they shouldn't do it because it doesn't make financial sense to do so... you're arguing they shouldn't do it because _you personally don't like how they've done it previously_.  But that kind of personal opinion on your part will have very little influence on whether it will continue, because for every person like you who hasn't liked how they've done their digital projects in the past, there's a person like me who's been quite happy with the online tools I've been getting since being a DDI subscriber.  So our personal opinions on how they run their business cancel each other out.  Thus it goes back to WotC's feeling of what makes the most financial sense for them to run their business in the future.



the Jester said:


> Certainly, this isn't D&D's death knell, but it's looking like the death knell of many people's willingness to spend money on D&D.




Just like every other change that has occurred over the lifespan of the game.  Every change loses someone who doesn't like the change, and their hope is always that someone new comes in to take their place.  And losing one person who would buy three hardcovers (which produces only a small amount of cash for WotC) and replacing him with one person who will buy a DDI subscription (which is almost all funneled directly into the company) is a good change in the long run for the financial health of the company.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 14, 2011)

> If 2, then my question is Would content delivered in new ways, along with new ways to experience D&D bring new blood into the game?




Almost every new media delivery system brings new revenue.  Look at media's long-standing vanguard/beneficiary of new tech: porn.

It predates _printing_.  Every media advance- sculpture => paper => painting => printed books => photography => magazines => film => home video => Internet- has resulted in a massive penetration into the new markets, swelling the coffers of the pornographers.  Why?  Access, pure & simple.  Each advance has made getting porn easier, cheaper, and more anonymous...meaning that potential customers can now avoid virtually all moral backlash & embarrassment when sampling the product.  Or becoming a repeat customer.

So yeah, digital media of today, as well as those we have yet to imagine, will bring new blood.





(all double entendres you saw above are the product of your dirty mind)


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## Scribble (Jan 14, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> So I completely understand why people are resistant to the idea of game books no longer being books... but from a cost to profit point of view it just makes too much sense not to continue in this path.




It's not as simple though as saying if it's cheaper then there will be more profits. There are generally a lot of factors that go into whether a plan of action will be ultimately more profitable, and sometimes the plan that's "cheaper" on the back end might not always be the one that leads to the most profits.

It sounds logical, but what if say, your cheaper option ends up opening the door for added costs down the road that the more expensive plan does not?

I personally want them to make more digital products, but I don't have enough info to understand if it would be a good, or bad business move.


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## Klaus (Jan 14, 2011)

There's also the aspect of a brand's visibility. D&D *needs* shelf space to remain visible.


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## Scribble (Jan 14, 2011)

Klaus said:


> There's also the aspect of a brand's visibility. D&D *needs* shelf space to remain visible.




I don't know if that's true.

I don't disagree that D&D, like any brand, needs to stay visible- but whether or not shelf space is the best way to do that is up for debate.


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## Chainsaw Mage (Jan 14, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> But the books whose primary purpose is _game mechanics_?  Absolutely, those could be taken down from the shelves and moved online. Do any of you "sit down to read" your Adventurer's Vault?  Or pick up your Player's Handbook and read the Powers sections of all eight classes?




It may be hard to believe, but yes, some of us actually do read our rulebooks.  

(I'm surprised such a point is even debated/discussed, frankly.  RPGs have *always* been defined by cerebral types reading hundreds of pages of rules and enjoying it).


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## tmanbeaubien (Jan 14, 2011)

A great friend of mine, TheHalfling, pointed me at this thread and I've read it with deep interest. 

Here's a question - when did you realize that a digital facet of D&D made some sense? I have some specific moments for myself - 
1. When I bought a super-duper Excel Spreadsheet (with almost more macros than there are stars in the sky) to manage 3rd edition character sheets. An Excel Spreadsheet! I can (and have) gone on at some length about the great failure of WOTC to produce a character builder/manager program anytime in the 10-15 years before they actually did.

2. When I got an email telling me that my PDF copy of the 4e Player's Handbook (purchased at RPGNow.com) was out of date - a newer version was available with corrections and errata. (Obviously this was before the great drought happened.) This still happens for me with Paizo stuff I've bought.

3. When I picked up the 4e Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide and flipped to the emaciated husk which passed for an index.

Since the beginning of 4e, I have not bought one of the powers books because I've been a DDI subscriber. It just didn't make sense to do so. I have lots of the other books because of the fluff that I want/need as a DM. I have multiple copies of the tile sets and bunches of the minis. My group plays in person around a table and we play just like in the old days, except with an iPhone app to track HPs and conditions, my iPad for compendium access and a nice magnetic board to track initiative. But the crazy bloodthirsty fighter who just has to kill every single foe on the board is still with us and the thi..rogue who tries to palm a gem out of the locked chest he just opened is right behind you too. They still argue with the town watch as to who threw the first punch. Etc, etc.

I dearly understand the love of physical books, but for books of rules - things which are tweaked, errata'd, polished and updated - the internet makes a huge amount of sense. Remember when some of us old folks were kids, they'd print a new updated set of encyclopedias every year? Well, that just doesn't happen anymore. It's too slow, it's too expensive, it's to heavy to carry around. And as mentioned above, it must cost too much to even bother to hire enough editors to make a good index for your books. 

Paizo sells all their stuff in PDF format too and I mean every thing they publish with words in it. Works beautifully on my iPad at the table. Much easier on my shoulder when I carry it around. I'd buy more books (er, publications??) from WOTC if they were available electronically to enjoy. 

So, like it or not, I think that our hobby is going to change - based on $$$ (atoms being expensive to shape, color and move in bulk), based on ease of use, based on overload of information, based on timeliness of updates. We may play it the same way we always have (or nearly so), but we're going to purchase (or purchase access to it) in very different ways.


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## Klaus (Jan 14, 2011)

Scribble said:


> I don't know if that's true.
> 
> I don't disagree that D&D, like any brand, needs to stay visible- but whether or not shelf space is the best way to do that is up for debate.



Y'see, the interwebz are very "pulverized". There are few sites possible consumers go that overlap. Everywhere you go on the web, you go because you meant to (apart from site I never ever visited thankyouverymuch...  ). But going to a mall, strolling into a bookstore, those are common activities for a wide range of people. Or looking about and seeing the D&D logo on a book on the window. The effect is quite different than seeing it on a web banner.

I think that yes, D&D does need to have a physical world presence. Books on a bookstore, comics on a newsstand, action figures in a toy store. It makes the brand "real", y'know what I mean?


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## Scribble (Jan 14, 2011)

Klaus said:


> Y'see, the interwebz are very "pulverized". There are few sites possible consumers go that overlap. Everywhere you go on the web, you go because you meant to (apart from site I never ever visited thankyouverymuch...  ). But going to a mall, strolling into a bookstore, those are common activities for a wide range of people. Or looking about and seeing the D&D logo on a book on the window. The effect is quite different than seeing it on a web banner.
> 
> I think that yes, D&D does need to have a physical world presence. Books on a bookstore, comics on a newsstand, action figures in a toy store. It makes the brand "real", y'know what I mean?




I get what you mean, but I don't agree that that's the only way to keep it in the public eye, nor do I agree that the only other way is web banners! 

I don't disagree that toys, and comics and such are a good thing- but books on a shelf aren't the end all be all of advertising...

In fact more important then just letting people know it exists, I think is getting people to understand WHAT it is that actually exists.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 14, 2011)

Scribble said:


> It sounds logical, but what if say, your cheaper option ends up opening the door for added costs down the road that the more expensive plan does not?




Obviously I can't comment on the actual numbers here because I have no idea.  All I can do is look at what WotC's been doing, along with what all other media and entertainment companies have been doing at the same time and then making educated guesses.

And based upon the music, television, VOD, book, and computer industries... people are moving further down the digital river.  I really don't see how you could come to any other conclusion.  Sure, the speed at which we're drifing down the river can be debated, and the speed at which older formats become obsolete can be also... but the fact we're still moving down it I don't believe can be.  Anyone's welcome to try and debate it if they'd like.  I welcome the opportunity to talk.


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 14, 2011)

Klaus said:


> There's also the aspect of a brand's visibility. D&D *needs* shelf space to remain visible.




That's what the Essentials products are for.


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## Scribble (Jan 14, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Obviously I can't comment on the actual numbers here because I have no idea.  All I can do is look at what WotC's been doing, along with what all other media and entertainment companies have been doing at the same time and then making educated guesses.
> 
> And based upon the music, television, VOD, book, and computer industries... people are moving further down the digital river.  I really don't see how you could come to any other conclusion.  Sure, the speed at which we're drifing down the river can be debated, and the speed at which older formats become obsolete can be also... but the fact we're still moving down it I don't believe can be.  Anyone's welcome to try and debate it if they'd like.  I welcome the opportunity to talk.




Wasn't really trying to debate one side or the other- only saying be careful about saying something is more profitable because it's cheaper to make.


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## fanboy2000 (Jan 14, 2011)

The Halfling said:


> Also the e-readers I have seen just don't perform what an e-book should in the form of advantages for reference materials. The are basically digital micro-fiche machines.



Out of curiosity, what ebook readers have you looked at? I have a kindle. It came with two dictionaries, The Oxford Dictionary of English, and the Oxford American English Dictionary. Plus, I bought Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary and Merriam-Webster's Thesaurus. And the kindle is great as a reference book.



> electronic reference book needs:






> -searchability



Every book on a Kindle is fully searchable. On top of that, if I move the cursor to the left of a word, the definition comes-up automatically. I can choose any dictionary I own as the default dictionary.



> -full color display of diagrams and illustrations to depict things in the text



This confuses me as many, many, references works are in B&W. In fact, many of them have 0 diagrams. I'm not sure why an eReader should be any different. That said, the kindle has a good resolution and displays images images in line with the text. In fact, Project Gutenberg has kindle books with images.



> -useable without connection to the power company in case of power outages



You realize that we're talking about _e_Readers right? Electronic means that it runs on electricity. Anyways, the e-ink display only uses power when it changes pages. It doesn't use any power while the page is on. In fact, when I turn off my kindle, it displays a random picture until I turn it own again. This is one of the major selling points of the kindle and all e-ink devices. They use far less power than an LCD device. I can go a week without charging my kindle if I keep the wi-fi on. If I turn it off, it can last month. 



> -full offline ability to use the material in case of network outages



The kindle has about 3gigs of space. Many eReaders have SD expansion slots. When I buy I book from Amazon (or download one from Project Gutenberg) it's on the kindle's flash drive. I don't need to be connected to the network except to 1) download books i bought and 2) use the web browser. In fact I often turn off the wi-fi just to conserve power.



> -accessibility features for differently-abled persons



The kindle has built in text-to-speech. I've used int, it's not bad. On top of that, all eReaders let you change the size of the text. The small is really small, and the large is really large. The kindle has 8 different text sizes. Plus you can change the type face from serif to sans serif, the space between lines, and number of words on a line. 



> These are jsut a few things an electronic reader would need to be better than a book, other than mass storage capability. The ability to delete bought books as has been done is a GIANT turn-off for many, as they could think lots of other problems are being had from device failure, payment error so the "book" was repossessed, and mountains of other things that you just wouldn't know from the thing not working all of a sudden. Granted some could be simple like battery charge depleted.



Ebooks aren't perfect for everything. Remotly deleting content is wrong. Amazon did it a while back (with, of all things, Orwell's  Animal Farm and 1984) and got into so much trouble for it  Bezos publicly apologized for it. To my knowledge, it hasn't happened since.

Generally speaking, my kindle gives me about the same reading quality as a paperback book does, which is what they were going for. For example, reading _A Princess of Mars_ on my kindle is the same as reading my paperback copy, except that my kindle isn't falling apart.

I think the biggest problem is that many publishers want DRMed files and do dumb things like disable copy and paste, which is a big mistake I think.


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## shadzar (Jan 15, 2011)

Mengu said:


> I'm not sure the discussion for book vs e-book, and some of the proof presented is necessarily any indication for the issue at hand. We are talking about a game. First and foremost, D&D is a game. It's not a book. And that's quite a difference.
> 
> So ideally we should not be looking for or asking for the best way to deliver D&D books, whether they should be paper or digital. We should be asking for the best way to deliver the D&D game. What that is, I don't know, and even if I had made up my mind on what it should be, it would still be debatable.
> 
> "Best way to deliver" of course is a relative concept as well, it's impossible to please everyone.




That is the crux of the matter. The D&D game is a collection of rules in books, a problem on person had/has with understanding on Wikipedia because they cannot accept it as a game since it is a "bunch of books".

So the game itself CAN be influenced by its chosen delivery method. If all things were to be made digital that were removed from being printed, that is a direction the game is taking. That would mean the game can change drastically from what it is because the medium used might attract different people, and in that course catering to them would be something the game has to do.

So an audience change, because of print v digital, could be a major reason for the "gutting" of print material.

We all know that WotC wants a strong digital front, so that could be directing decisions about the game itself and how many things are delivered. It also changes the game, or can, to a rental rather than ownership of the material via subscription based, as opposed to purchase based acquisition of material.

Renting things to people you can make more money than selling it to them, even if you are renting it to buy. But in the case of digital and subscription only, there would be no option to buy.


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## Zaran (Jan 15, 2011)

I think this is a bad thing for one reason. WotC now has a horrible reputation when it comes to digital content.  Books I had preordered and were supposed to come out next month may bot come out in digital offering until next year sometime.  I look at an article from Dragon and there are four new feats or four magic items attached to alot of back story.  That is what I waited all month for?  I feel like they are putting their game in the hands of the worst run branch of the company.


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## Odhanan (Jan 15, 2011)

WotC has always had an abysmal record for digital offerings. D&D e-tools, anyone? 

What really surprises me is that anyone is surprised about these failings, honestly.


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## Trebor62 (Jan 15, 2011)

I think WoTC is digital leery with the rampant piracy of there books and subscribers gaming the the PC based character builder with one month subscriptions once or twice a year to update.

As a consquence I think this has contributed to some of the ruff starts and slow progress in their digital effort.  In short they need to put more online but there past tries have left them gunshy. Its like voluteering to test parachutes, when the last guy to do it got killed.

And I still have my own problems with the new CB. Worked fine for the first week but after that I can only log in if I have two IE8 running. The first instance IE8 will draw the install SilverLight screen message. I leave that; open IE8 again and then I can log in normally. I have no idea why this works but maybe someone else does.


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## zoroaster100 (Jan 15, 2011)

I'm concerned about this WOTC announcement.  By itself it is very bad news for D&D for 2011, since I have no interest in board games and accessories and it sounds like very little support for D&D itself this year.  But even worse I worry this means WOTC is abandoning D&D altogether, or is already busy at work coming up with some crazy 5th edition instead of supporting 4th edition just when they were finally getting it right.


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## Trebor62 (Jan 15, 2011)

I dont think we will ever see a 5e after how 4e split the market with Piazo. I suspect the we will see 4e morph into something like essentials where the old material still works but the newer material has more to offer, and the less popular races and classes wont be supported or further developed. But they will still be there and playable.


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## Scribble (Jan 15, 2011)

Thinking about this a little more... I have a feeling we'll see some new books or products to replace these.  

One of the big complaints people seem to have is the quality of the mags- these books seemed like perfect material to be in dragon/dungeon (ie stuff that's designed to enhance other aspects of the game.)

So break them up into the mags make them better, and release something to replace them.


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## Ourph (Jan 15, 2011)

Klaus said:


> There's also the aspect of a brand's visibility. D&D *needs* shelf space to remain visible.






ArcaneSpringboard said:


> That's what the Essentials products are for.




Not to mention Dungeon Tiles, boxes of tokens and other game aids that need to be sold as physical products.


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## ShadesOfGrey (Jan 15, 2011)

Hmm, on the ebook vs physical book discussion, one argument I feel hasnt been made yet.

D&D (and other p&p rpg's) is this kinda arcane, kinda adventurous activity and hobby. A shelf full of books, pencils, funny dice, some mini's maybe.. these are important parts of this 'romanticised' experience.

Sure, I guess maybe I'm just getting older, not quite in the generation for whom internet & the digital everything has always been there.

I suppose the next wave of early adopters or once digital presence is more accepted, it's technologically & economically a better idea to go to digital delivery.
But I have to wonder if the 'kids' who'd ride the wave of techno advancement are really going for a style of game that is behind the times and kinda... sorry to say it.. obsolete.

Look at people playing guitar.. the materials & styles of the popular models have mostly remained stuck in the '50s. You can make a very advanced guitar using plexiglass instead of wood, digital enhancments instead of analogue electronics and whatnot.. and it's mostly rejected.. because it just isnt the same. With amplifiers, for all their 'obsoleteness' an old style vacuum tube amp is pretty much the most popular choice.

There are a lot of niche artists who make most of their money selling vinyl still, not digital.

imo, ttrpgs are a kinda of hobbyist thing mostly. It's something that sells & plays not only on it's own properties, but also it's nostalgia and romatic value. Taking away that value, and how much does it actually differ from any other type of entertainment product?


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 15, 2011)

zoroaster100 said:


> I'm concerned about this WOTC announcement.  By itself it is very bad news for D&D for 2011, since I have no interest in board games and accessories and it sounds like very little support for D&D itself this year.  But even worse I worry this means WOTC is abandoning D&D altogether, or is already busy at work coming up with some crazy 5th edition instead of supporting 4th edition just when they were finally getting it right.




As I said on Twitter, wait until AFTER DDXP, and THEN declare the death of D&D.

We got the bad news now because people were demanding it.  But we're not going to get the good news until DDXP, since that's when they'll do their announcements.

Plus, they've already stated that the content of those books will be dealt with in DDI.  It's just that we don't know yet if it's additional content for DDI, or in place-of it.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 15, 2011)

Scribble said:


> So break them up into the mags make them better, and release something to replace them.




WOTC can do the former if they must (and seem to be), but I see no sign they are doing the latter.


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## Dumnbunny (Jan 16, 2011)

ArcaneSpringboard said:


> As I said on Twitter, wait until AFTER DDXP, and THEN declare the death of D&D.
> 
> We got the bad news now because people were demanding it.  But we're not going to get the good news until DDXP, since that's when they'll do their announcements.
> 
> Plus, they've already stated that the content of those books will be dealt with in DDI.  It's just that we don't know yet if it's additional content for DDI, or in place-of it.



How it will be dealt with might just be more bad news.

If the canceled content (and similar future content) winds up as Dragon articles or as ebooks in PDF or some other format I'd personally be content with that (YMMV). If it winds up as database entries in the compendium, then that would be a very bad idea.

Personally, I won't rent access to game elements contained in a database behind a pay-wall. That's a fool's game, as former subscribers to Yahoo! Music can attest. What happens when the company shuts down the servers, not because they're going bankrupt but simply because maintaining the server doesn't fit their current business plan or whatever?


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## Charwoman Gene (Jan 16, 2011)

The non-DDI products will be core books with races and classes.  Magic items and powers and feats will be in collectible packs.  DDI subscribers will have access to all the items through the compendium.  I sincerely hope this isn't true, and don't think it is likely, but I felt I should share the idea.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 16, 2011)

ShadesOfGrey said:


> Hmm, on the ebook vs physical book discussion, one argument I feel hasnt been made yet.
> 
> D&D (and other p&p rpg's) is this kinda arcane, kinda adventurous activity and hobby. A shelf full of books, pencils, funny dice, some mini's maybe.. these are important parts of this 'romanticised' experience.
> 
> ...




Yep. Will always be true. I prefer paper thank you. I like having a nicely bound and printed book in my hands to leaf through and explore. That is part of the experience. 

It's not just about the idea, it's also about the experience. Digital recording doesn't invalidate analog just by being clearer. It's just different. Most people I know in the music scene prefer analog methods and live recording. Mostly because it's more tangible. I prefer paper in the case of D&D. 

Digital has tons of advantages in both but those advantages do not outweigh the qualities of a nice book or a thoughtfully recorded and mastered reel of tape.

DDI should focus on very well organized repository of information. New material considered 'core' to the game (such as the class compendium) should appear in both formats. I realize from what info was available it was mostly a revision of the phb with essentials taken into account but that is simply what was needed. 

Honestly I have been waiting for that book since before it was announced and now I find it is cancelled with no replacement in sight. I want a book I can carry in my bag and place on my sidetable to read when I can and share with friends/players. What I don't want is to have a subscription monthly to access information on my laptop which I spend enough time on as it is. 

I hope WoTC has something up their sleeve.


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 16, 2011)

Dumnbunny said:


> How it will be dealt with might just be more bad news.
> 
> If the canceled content (and similar future content) winds up as Dragon articles or as ebooks in PDF or some other format I'd personally be content with that (YMMV). If it winds up as database entries in the compendium, then that would be a very bad idea.
> 
> Personally, I won't rent access to game elements contained in a database behind a pay-wall. That's a fool's game, as former subscribers to Yahoo! Music can attest. What happens when the company shuts down the servers, not because they're going bankrupt but simply because maintaining the server doesn't fit their current business plan or whatever?




I highly doubt they'd add stuff to the Compendium without also printing it as a DDI article.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 16, 2011)

I am sure WOTC will do something, and most likely at DDXP, as Gencon is just too far away.

But will I like it? That is the question. I want books with traditional 4E support. It can support Essentials, too, that is fine. I think it is possible to make a book that does both. Just like tempest fighter at-wills really don't work for a sword and board fighter, it can be done. 

That I would like to see. But overall, I would like to see essentials 10 books and only 10. 

Selfish, I suppose, but there it is.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 16, 2011)

ArcaneSpringboard said:


> As I said on Twitter, wait until AFTER DDXP, and THEN declare the death of D&D.
> 
> We got the bad news now because people were demanding it.  But we're not going to get the good news until DDXP, since that's when they'll do their announcements.
> 
> Plus, they've already stated that the content of those books will be dealt with in DDI.  It's just that we don't know yet if it's additional content for DDI, or in place-of it.




Kind of like how the previews of upcoming material were supposed to be additional content?


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## Korgoth (Jan 16, 2011)

ShadesOfGrey said:


> Hmm, on the ebook vs physical book discussion, one argument I feel hasnt been made yet.
> 
> D&D (and other p&p rpg's) is this kinda arcane, kinda adventurous activity and hobby. A shelf full of books, pencils, funny dice, some mini's maybe.. these are important parts of this 'romanticised' experience.
> 
> ...




This is an excellent post.

Here's the thing about analog versus digital: some things survive the transition, and some things don't.

Model trains are a hobby. A very niche hobby, but a hobby nonetheless. They sell a lot of model train stuff at my local Hobby Lobby (I shop there mostly for stuff to use for my hobby of historical miniatures wargaming). Now, I could make model trains a digital experience. I could call it: Rail Modelz Revolution Digital Experience (or "Model Train Tycoon" or whatever). It would essentially be a computer program where you 'set up' and customize model train layouts. There could be game aspects where you try to do certain things with x amount of track or in x amount of time or whatever, and free play modes where you basically just set up the biggest, baddest model train domain that your heart desires. I could even make it a subscription based game, for no other reason than profit motive.

Here's the thing: no matter how much money and time you spend on RMRDE, there is one thing that you _do not_ have and _never will_ have... a model train.


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## Charwoman Gene (Jan 16, 2011)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> This is an excellent post.
> 
> Here's the thing about analog versus digital: some things survive the transition, and some things don't.
> 
> ...




Yeah, here's the thing. D&D is not model trains. Model trains are a craft hobby. I can get into model trains and be totally involved without interacting with anyone else. Like knitting, or painting, the physical objects are the point of the hobby. Now, in the past, I could have looked up what rolling stock was used on the New York, New Haven and Hartford, and seen pictures to help me scratch build and customize models for realism.  Shifting my references to websites instead of my collection of railroad reference books doesn't change the core activity.

D&D is sitting down with people playing pretend, using character sheets and dice to resolve conflict.  Moving the reference material to digital doesn't change the activity to digital.  And we aren't discussing VTT or using computers to roll dice or act as character sheets..  This would be akin to designing a custom shell for a locomotive in a CAD program and printing it on a 3D printer.


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## Primal (Jan 16, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> I am sure WOTC will do something, and most likely at DDXP, as Gencon is just too far away.
> 
> But will I like it? That is the question. I want books with traditional  4E support. It can support Essentials, too, that is fine. I think it is  possible to make a book that does both. Just like tempest fighter  at-wills really don't work for a sword and board fighter, it can be  done.
> 
> ...




I believe it too; it might be a completely digital business model which  revolves around VTT and DDi, and including e-book publishing. Although I  doubt it; I just can't believe they could pull it off on their own,  given their track record so far. However, pulling those books off the  market might indicate that they might be considering going all-digital  -- especially in the light "You're going to see this material in another  form"-type of comments. I just don't think enough gamers own, or would  buy, an e-book reader (and I don't believe they would use PDF as the  format). Instead, it might be digital components purchased online;  digital power and fortune cards, digital minis and tiles for VTT,  themes, etcetera. Maybe there would even be overlap with  console/computer games, i.e. purchased fortune/power cards and themes  could be imported and exported between the game and VTT, for example. 

But will it still be 4E? The next announcement might also be about a new edition of D&D which probably wouldn't a _new_ edition _per se_,  at least according to WoTC. What I mean by this is that there would be  no '5E', ever; I could even see them marketing it with slogans like  "It's still Dungeons & Dragons" and "The game remains the same!". It  wouldn't matter if the base mechanics changed; they pulled it off it  with Essentials, too (and regardless of what other people think, it  looks like a new and revised edition to me). Maybe there will be modular  add-ons published as boxed sets (if they still go for printed  material), or completely digital additions to the base system (as  above). If they use boxed sets, there might be overlap with their  boardgames; perhaps new classes,  new power cards, new themes and so on.  

As has been said before, they've throwing all kinds of stuff around to  see what "sticks", and I'm very curious to see what WoTC will do next...


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## Scribble (Jan 16, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> WOTC can do the former if they must (and seem to be), but I see no sign they are doing the latter.




They do lots of stuff without showing any signs of it until it's almost upon us though. 

As people say, D&D XP is coming up- my guess is we'll see something then.

If you think about it, the books they slashed really ARE ideas that seem like great uses of the mags. 

They don't really add anything "new" so to speak... They just modify/enhance or tie together already existing ideas.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 16, 2011)

Honestly if they switch to a mostly digital VTT model that would be the end of the game. That's simply a realm that is much bigger than what WoTC can handle. It would be a losing battle from the start. D&D has its niche and that niche is not on computers. It's at tables with other people playing in person.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 16, 2011)

SlyDoubt said:


> Honestly if they switch to a mostly digital VTT model that would be the end of the game. That's simply a realm that is much bigger than what WoTC can handle. It would be a losing battle from the start. D&D has its niche and that niche is not on computers. It's at tables with other people playing in person.



I don't see how their support of VTT would force people to use it though. It's not like they will send the RPG police to your house to ensure that you're using it in your home games or whatever. You could argue that they will promote its use, but they can't enforce a "mostly digital" use of the materials. 

They could release the entire game as "digital content" but unless they actually went ahead and made 5E nothing but a video game, most folks would be happy to continue playing it as a tabletop game with pencils and dice, just like Gary intended.


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## the Jester (Jan 16, 2011)

ArcaneSpringboard said:


> Plus, they've already stated that the content of those books will be dealt with in DDI.  It's just that we don't know yet if it's additional content for DDI, or in place-of it.




Oh seriously, when has anything that was supposed to be "additional" content NOT replaced other stuff in DDI?

Both the preview material and the playtest material have morphed from "Hey, what a good idea!" to "Jesus, my sub fees are just paying to be advertised at now."

I wouldn't hold my breath here, frankly- and until the last few months I was a huge booster of DDI despite its flaws.


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## the Jester (Jan 16, 2011)

Charwoman Gene said:


> Yeah, here's the thing. D&D is not model trains.




I think the point is, if all the rules content is behind a paywall, you can't play without online access.  You no longer own the game, you're renting access to it.

That's not the model for me as a customer, nor do I feel that it's a good model for D&D.  To me, D&D is a hobby you should be able to take in your backpack when you're camping in the middle of nowhere.  D&D is a hobby where you should be able to peruse your books on the toilet.  D&D is a hobby that encourages its players to spend hours and hours pouring through books at random, either looking for just the right spell or power or item or else just for the joy of it. 

None of these things are encouraged by a digital-only ruleset, and I hope WotC gives up on the idea right quick (assuming that switching to a primarily-online model is their plan).


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 16, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> I don't see how their support of VTT would force people to use it though. It's not like they will send the RPG police to your house to ensure that you're using it in your home games or whatever. You could argue that they will promote its use, but they can't enforce a "mostly digital" use of the materials.
> 
> They could release the entire game as "digital content" but unless they actually went ahead and made 5E nothing but a video game, most folks would be happy to continue playing it as a tabletop game with pencils and dice, just like Gary intended.




Oh no I didn't mean it like that. I meant future content. It's always true that as long as you own the stuff no one can stop you from using it. I never said enforce and I didn't realize what I said had that tone.

What I mean is there's only a limited amount of money and time to go around. If that money/time is funneled into VTT and support for a digital only D&D experience the print form will need to be cut back. That direction would be a losing battle. I don't think there's anyone who would believe D&D could survive in a digital format. It's totally fine as a hybrid print/digital thing, but going full on digital would be a terrible idea. They'd lose a ton of players and most likely gain almost no new ones seeing as the digital landscape is already filled with RPGs of one kind of another. 

If I want that I can play Neverwinter Nights. Of course that's tongue-in-cheek but I think you get the gist of what I mean. D&D is the big fish in its little pond. If D&D were to move to an all digital format based around VTT it would be a minnow in the ocean and I think the majority of its long time players and supporters would just stay playing 4e or whatever other older edition. WoTC needs to stop splitting their player base into little pieces. 

Every new edition has this effect but with 4E we also got DDI which further splits the community. They simply can't afford to keep doing that. Essentials was recognition that they understand this problem and want to fix it. It provided access to the new style of rules, class builds that are more reminiscent of older editions of D&D and did it all in an affordable package.

Now we're told books that would transition older material to this updated format/style (and expand it in the direction laid out by Essentials) will be cut. There are hints it will appear on DDI. I was fine with how things were being handled early on. DDI provided a useful resource for people who wanted it, that's great. It also had new content in magazine format which is a great idea and really necessary to keep people engaged. Now I feel I'm being forced down that path though. Instead of DDI subscribers getting alternate options from those of us only buying books they'll be getting the updated takes on phb classes? That's a bit much for me to accept without being at least somewhat miffed.


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## Ryujin (Jan 16, 2011)

Whatever the ultimate result might be I applaud them for learning from their mistakes in the CB debacle, and actually TELLING us how things were going.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 16, 2011)

SlyDoubt said:


> Oh no I didn't mean it like that. I meant future content. It's always true that as long as you own the stuff no one can stop you from using it. I never said enforce and I didn't realize what I said had that tone.



I catch your drift now. It did sound like an overreaction at first. I see what you meant now though.



> What I mean is there's only a limited amount of money and time to go around. If that money/time is funneled into VTT and support for a digital only D&D experience the print form will need to be cut back. That direction would be a losing battle. I don't think there's anyone who would believe D&D could survive in a digital format. It's totally fine as a hybrid print/digital thing, but going full on digital would be a terrible idea. They'd lose a ton of players and most likely gain almost no new ones seeing as the digital landscape is already filled with RPGs of one kind of another.



A fair assessment, I think. It is far easier for them to compete  with Paizo, Whitewolf, Steve Jackson, Mongoose, etc, etc, than it would  be for them to go up against Blizzard or Bioware. 



> If I want that I can play Neverwinter Nights. Of course that's tongue-in-cheek but I think you get the gist of what I mean. D&D is the big fish in its little pond. If D&D were to move to an all digital format based around VTT it would be a minnow in the ocean and I think the majority of its long time players and supporters would just stay playing 4e or whatever other older edition. WoTC needs to stop splitting their player base into little pieces.
> 
> Every new edition has this effect but with 4E we also got DDI which further splits the community. They simply can't afford to keep doing that. Essentials was recognition that they understand this problem and want to fix it. It provided access to the new style of rules, class builds that are more reminiscent of older editions of D&D and did it all in an affordable package.



I agree with you about Essentials. I think we both see it the same way. That said, the saddest part of this is that even though Essentials was a totally *optional* add-on to the 4e line, that could be integrated, played separately, or ignored entirely, it _still_ split the community. It somehow annoyed the people who liked what had already been done with 4e, and likely as an extension of the 3e way of doing things. Somehow a lot of these folks felt _insulted_ or _betrayed_ (and somewhat confused) by the Essentials line. I don't entirely understand it, but that was the reaction we witnessed.

I think these were the folks that liked the 4e ruleset, as an extension of the Book of Nine Swords school of thought, but who wanted to continue with the 3e business model of zillions of classes and splatbooks. To them Essentials was a step backward. As I said, I don't necessarily agree, and I think that the type of things that lead to schisms within the community are often silly and trivial. That doesn't stop them from occurring.

If even the olive branch that was Essentials caused a schism, then what can WotC possibly do that _won't_?



> Now we're told books that would transition older material to this updated format/style (and expand it in the direction laid out by Essentials) will be cut. There are hints it will appear on DDI. I was fine with how things were being handled early on. DDI provided a useful resource for people who wanted it, that's great. It also had new content in magazine format which is a great idea and really necessary to keep people engaged. Now I feel I'm being forced down that path though. Instead of DDI subscribers getting alternate options from those of us only buying books they'll be getting the updated takes on phb classes? That's a bit much for me to accept without being at least somewhat miffed.



I can understand the frustration. I feel it too. I was going to buy those books, in all probablility. I liked Essentials, and I wanted to know how to better integrate those classes with the old ones, or how the designers intend for powers to be swapped within a class. I have ideas on how I think it works, and if those books never see the light of day in any form, I will houserule it for my games, but I still want official rules too.

If I have to subscribe to get access, I think that sucks. Don't misunderstand: I have no problems with paying for the material, but putting it all behind the paywall, which amounts to renting access to D&D... that just sucks. I like the game though, and the price isn't terrible, so I will do it anyway.

I agree with you. I'd at least like the option of getting this material from Amazon, or Chapters, or my FLGS. Not being able to do that, I think they're shooting themselves in the foot even further. Now instead of DDI, Hardcopy, or piracy, the only options are now DDI or piracy. I think that they'll find a lot of folks that would have bought the books because of some issue or another with DDI, will now just pirate the material that they otherwise would have paid for. They're chopping off their own nose to spite their face. Again.

Worse for them still if the DDI content remains in PDF article format. Even if the issues remain non-compiled, they're still trivially easy to pirate and distribute to non-paying players. That is why I mourn either the loss of Dragon and Dungeon, *or* the material from the axed books.

If Dragon and Dungeon articles are to become the vehicle for the distribution of that material, as has been hinted, then they certainly can't continue just pumping it out in bite-sized PDFs. That doesn't solve their problem with digital distribution in PDF format.

If Dragon and Dungeon continue to be a part of the D&D landscape in its current form, then that almost certainly means that we won't see the material in those books presented there. It will likely mean that Dragon and Dungeon continue to be vehicles for fluff pieces, editorials, and advertising that we are paying to look at.

All this, to me, points to a _something else_. What that is, what form it will take, I can only guess.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 16, 2011)

I guess because I was part of the target of Essentials I felt it did do a good job. A lot of the comments I read across blogs and here seemed positive. It's disappointing to know it wasn't as universally accepted as I felt it was.

If it wasn't a success I guess it was at least evidence that they knew something had to be done and were trying to figure it out. I feel Dark Sun is in the same vein. Dark sun was what made me re-interested in 4E despite the things I wasn't so happy about. Essentials extended that feeling that Wizards was trying to give us paper lovers something genuinely useful instead of pointless 'x' power books which I never bothered with. To see that all flounder and hear about digital this and digital that is disheartening. 

Like you said I don't see how releasing things digitally will curtail piracy in any form. If it's text I can copy it. If it's an image I can copy it. If it's a pdf I can copy it. Even if there was some other way someone could just transcribe it.

I buy books because they're inherently different than simply having a pdf. If everything is a pdf already I'm a lot less interested in paying for it if I don't have to.

I'm also not sure what else they can be doing. 

Why didn't they give a free month or two with purchase of any Essentials product? I'm sure there's a way to make it so someone can't buy every product and have like 3/4s a year free by using different accounts. If there isn't so be it, maybe they should if they've spent that much on essentials stuff.

If you want people to use DDI with essentials as the foundation I don't see why they're so separated. Mentioning DDI in the books doesn't make it easy or enticing to go look for it. I should be given some kind of limited access. whether content limited but time unlimited or vice versa. Right now there's too much of a separation. DDI exists to make D&D bigger and bigger as more and more content is added. but without having to search through piles of books. That's a good thing. But why is it so separate? 

If I buy a paper product I should receive something on DDI. The lack of union between the two is just stupid. For a company so scared of piracy their stuff is awfully easy to pirate with little incentive not to sometimes.


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## Klaus (Jan 16, 2011)

SlyDoubt said:


> I guess because I was part of the target of Essentials I felt it did do a good job. A lot of the comments I read across blogs and here seemed positive. It's disappointing to know it wasn't as universally accepted as I felt it was.
> 
> If it wasn't a success I guess it was at least evidence that they knew something had to be done and were trying to figure it out. I feel Dark Sun is in the same vein. Dark sun was what made me re-interested in 4E despite the things I wasn't so happy about. Essentials extended that feeling that Wizards was trying to give us paper lovers something genuinely useful instead of pointless 'x' power books which I never bothered with. To see that all flounder and hear about digital this and digital that is disheartening.
> 
> ...



I think the move of those three books to digital format is less about piracy and more about the feedback they got from the DDi users that they prefer that sort of content (rules, feats, class variants, etc) in digital format.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 16, 2011)

and what type of feedback would that include from the non-ddi users?

Or are they now second class citizens who WoTc will reluctantly take their money all the while tsking that these kids new to get with the ddi program?


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 16, 2011)

JoeGKushner said:


> and what type of feedback would that include from the non-ddi users?
> 
> Or are they now second class citizens who WoTc will reluctantly take their money all the while tsking that these kids new to get with the ddi program?




Pretty much, yeah.  

If you're playing 4E D&D using only the books and refuse to pay $6 a month for DDI... there's a chance that in the future you might have to rely on just Player's Handbook I, Player's Handbook II, Player's Handbook III, Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, Primal Power, Martial Power II, Psionic Power, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Heroes of Shadow.

It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.


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## Mapache (Jan 16, 2011)

the Jester said:


> D&D is a hobby that encourages its players to spend hours and hours pouring through books at random, either looking for just the right spell or power or item or else just for the joy of it.
> 
> None of these things are encouraged by a digital-only ruleset, and I hope WotC gives up on the idea right quick (assuming that switching to a primarily-online model is their plan).




That's just dead wrong.  The digital nature of the compendium and the character builder have encouraged me to spend more time looking up powers and feats and tinkering with builds than I've actually spent playing the game.  I would never have done so if I had to pore through a stack of books looking for things.  I'll look things up online even when the book I *know* has that thing in it is in the same room as me, because it's easier.  Searching for things without an indexed database is like relying on stone tools—I could, but why would I ever want to?


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 16, 2011)

[MENTION=6667337]SlyDoubt[/MENTION] (mostly) - I also felt that Essentials did a good job. I was also, partly, in the target audience, as were members of my gaming group.

Granted we were/are already playing 4e and enjoying it, but Essentials seemed to be a nod toward addressing some of the complaints that us grognards had just decided to live with.

That's why I called it an olive branch, and why I was a little saddened, but ultimately not surprised, to see that some took offence to it and what it represented. Every time I see someone call it 'dumbed down 4e' a little part of me wants to scream and froth at the mouth and chew them out.

I just can't understand how people could get offended by it. I understand not liking it. Lots of stuff gets released that I don't like, but it doesn't _offend_ me; I don't drop the whole product line like an old newspaper because one of the items in the series is not to my liking. I ignore it and move on.

If that were the case, I would have dropped 4e before I even picked it up (I ended up really enjoying 4e, for the most part). I would have dropped it when they updated Eberron for 4e (I found things in there to like and steal, Warforged notwithstanding). I would have dropped it when the Primal power source showed up (I actually grew to like that one). I would have dropped it when PHB3 introduced the Psionic power source (still hate psionics, but other stuff in PH3 was good). I would have dropped it when the Shadow power source was announced and Assassin was made a class instead of a PP (still don't like 'shadow' as a power source, but I will likely enjoy/steal/repurpose it for my games).

Nothing in that list worth getting offended over, feeling insulted by, or not enjoying an otherwise great game over. Not even dragon people with boobies, silly emo tieflings, and the rest of the art direction that I dislike so much. But hey, I understand, they have to appeal to a broader crowd then just us grognards, and getting well-known artists like Easley and Elmore would have been just as polarising to some and chewed through the art budget much faster. Besides, it was better than the art for 3e, and that's all that matters.


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## lutecius (Jan 16, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Pretty much, yeah.
> 
> If you're playing 4E D&D using only the books and refuse to pay $6 a month for DDI... there's a chance that in the future you might have to rely on just Player's Handbook I, Player's Handbook II, Player's Handbook III, Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, Primal Power, Martial Power II, Psionic Power, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Heroes of Shadow.
> 
> It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.



I think it'll be tough for the d&d department to survive without the book sales considering the growing number of subscribers disappointed by their digital intiative... but hopefully they'll be able to do it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 16, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> > *JoeGKushner *
> > and what type of feedback would that include from the non-ddi users?
> >
> > Or are they now second class citizens who WoTc will reluctantly take their money all the while tsking that these kids new to get with the ddi program?
> ...




Echoing the concerns of JoeGKushner, I can guarantee you all that if/when D&D goes 100% digital, I won't be there paying for it.

Which is OK- that means I can buy more gemstones and guitars.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 16, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.




When your eyes fall out of your head after reading through all the feats on DDI don't come crying to me.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 17, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> post




That's mostly how I've felt the whole time. I saw the power books and thought " that's cool but I think I've got enough to play with as it is" and recognized some people probably eat them up. I'm not a min-maxer power gamer type. Actually I've almost never even been a player. Almost exclusively a DM since 3E launched.

I bought the 4E books when it launched because from what I had read before hand it seemed like it had many good ideas. I loved the power format and thought more variety in what characters can do each turn can only be a good thing. I've watched each release but the only thing I purchased beyond the original core books has been the dark sun books and the essentials books (minus DM kit and tiles). I've waited all this time and when I read the Essentials books in a local store I thought it sounded great. Liked the format, loved having a rules compendium and an updated monster manual that comes with tokens. Great stuff all around for me.

I understand people who didn't like essentials. It ate up a lot of time and money to produce essentials and so instead of continuing things as normal for many people a bunch of products they had zero interest in were produced. I sympathize but honestly I've got plenty of other stuff to keep me busy when Wizards isn't putting out books I want to buy. I guess the difference between me and people who can't just accept that and move on is I'm not able to play as often or am not as deeply involved in the hobby. 

With each book and change to what I was used to (3E) I was a bit more skeptical but I thought the 4E framework was an excellent one (for the most part) so I just stuck around hoping it'd turn my way. Well it did with essentials but it seems from there it's unknown once again. 

If you couldn't tell I'm still really bummed about the class compendium cancellation. That was really like a stake to the heart for my burgeoning interest in 4E and now I feel again like I should just continue my 3.5 Eberron campaign and keep waiting and hoping. We'll see. 

I pray wotc provides the class compendium material that isn't specifically optional add-on in the form of downloadable pdfs. I want to know how essentials and traditional things should be handled together as far as swapping and class abilities. I'd kill for an updated phb as far as errata and all and that's what I thought the class compendium would be but now I don't know. I guess I should be printing and pasting...? :/


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 17, 2011)

SlyDoubt said:


> Honestly if they switch to a mostly digital VTT model that would be the end of the game. That's simply a realm that is much bigger than what WoTC can handle. It would be a losing battle from the start. D&D has its niche and that niche is not on computers. It's at tables with other people playing in person.




Yes, but the VTT has great potential to actually grow the D&D market. 

Here's an example.  I have several friends who play D&D with me locally, but I also have several friends who I played D&D with in college that I would play with in a second over a VTT if it was easy to do.

In fact, there may even be more time to play a VTT game than normal games.  As it is, we currently play once a week every week when able, although when we started it was every 2nd week.

However, my friends play D&D Online and Lord of the Rings Online, as well as World of Warcraft several times per week.  I have no interest in MMOs (despite trying), but I definitely would be interested in playing with my extended friends one a week, and it'd be fairly easy.  It's simply easier to head downstairs sit at the computer after the kids are in bed and play, and a soon as we're done, head upstairs and go to bed.

A VTT integrated with the online CB and Monster Builder would make that very easy to do.


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 17, 2011)

Klaus said:


> I think the move of those three books to digital format is less about piracy and more about the feedback they got from the DDi users that they prefer that sort of content (rules, feats, class variants, etc) in digital format.




Exactly.  There was a survey of DDI users, who are after all, the month-to-month customers of WotC regarding what form they wanted their product in.

I don't know about others, but I had _zero_ interest in buying anymore crunch books.  I bought Martial Power 1, but that was the last Power Book I bought and after PHB3, I decided I wouldn't buy anymore 'crunch' books.  I'd just get it through DDI.

I'd bet that the vast majority of DDI subscribers said the same thing.

Thus, the only real market for those books are those who aren't in DDI, and I suspect that the return on publishing books of that type has been going downhill.

I'm actually surprised a bit that Heroes of Shadow was also not pulled, but perhaps there is enough interest in that type of book that it's still worth doing.

Like DDM, the splat-book business model is starting to fail, once you get about two years into a new edition.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 17, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Pretty much, yeah.
> 
> If you're playing 4E D&D using only the books and refuse to pay $6 a month for DDI... there's a chance that in the future you might have to rely on just Player's Handbook I, Player's Handbook II, Player's Handbook III, Martial Power, Arcane Power, Divine Power, Primal Power, Martial Power II, Psionic Power, Heroes of the Fallen Lands, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, and Heroes of Shadow.
> 
> It'll be tough to survive on such a limited amount of character content, I know... but hopefully you'll be able to do it.




And how about the magic items in their new classes that were 'revolutionized' by essentials? Yeah, that's what most of us who said it was a new edition though. WoTC couldn't even follow through on their own ball game.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 17, 2011)

Absolutely it could grow the market. 

I never meant to say VTT itself would kill the game. I said what I meant exactly which is a mostly digital VTT based model for D&D would kill it. That meaning very little is printed or updated on paper, much like whats currently going on. They're not going to pull in modern teenagers just by going digital. It may save them money immediately but I really do not think it'll keep long term players who definitely make up the majority of the playerbase. 

Now if they get VTT running alongside the print product that would definitely be great for things. But again, only if what is in DDI is optional mechanical material, not the home of the core rules with no print product in existence. D&D would simply not survive as a digital only or 90% digital game. It might hang on for a while but it would die. That market will destroy D&D. 

DDI should exist to supplement the books with optional material produced monthly (maybe weekly) to keep players involved in the game. Forcing DDI as the only real viable way to play the game in its current form is just a terrible terrible idea imho. VTT and digital format is not the future of the game. It's part of it but it is not what's going to sustain it long term.


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## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 17, 2011)

JoeGKushner said:


> and what type of feedback would that include from the non-ddi users?
> 
> Or are they now second class citizens who WoTc will reluctantly take their money all the while tsking that these kids new to get with the ddi program?




Obviously I have no idea about the relative numbers of the DDI customers vs. people who buy just the books, but given WotC's actions and the fact that the last survey was for DDI members only, I have to think that a large majority of their paying customers are DDI subscribers.

Given that, they have a vested interest in knowing what the largest proportion of their customers are interested in buying.  If a large percentage of their customers are saying 'we're not going to buy splat books anymore', then unfortunately, you end up with what we've got.

You may denigrate DDI, but for most of the people who pay for it, it's a good value, or they'd quit.

If more people bought the books, then they'd keep making them.  But they've obviously reached a point where it's not financially viable to produce most splat books.

You don't expect them to keep producing product that isn't financially viable do you?


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 17, 2011)

But do we know how many people quit after ye old CB online only bits?

We, as customers, have no information as to what WoTC is actually doing or what numbers they're playing with.

In terms of products for example, they may be making money, but as others have said, not enough money.

I expect WoTC to do what they think they need to do. I hope it works for them. I just also hope they're still making products that I want to buy in a manner in which I can buy them.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 17, 2011)

ArcaneSpringboard said:


> If more people bought the books, then they'd keep making them.  But they've obviously reached a point where it's not financially viable to produce most splat books.
> 
> You don't expect them to keep producing product that isn't financially viable do you?



There is a massive world of difference between 'not financially viable' and 'not massively profitable' and truthfully we don't know which is the case here. I suspect the latter is driving their decision making process under pressure from Hasborg.

I'm willing to bet that producing the books and minis, etc, is still profitable, but not profitable _enough_, particularly for the Hasborg brass and shareholders. See also, "not meeting internal targets."

Heck, most of the rest of the entire hobby industry makes the products and makes money on things that WotC won't because it's not massively profitable, but these other companies prove (or sometimes not) the financial viability of said products.


----------



## ArcaneSpringboard (Jan 17, 2011)

SlyDoubt said:


> Absolutely it could grow the market.
> 
> I never meant to say VTT itself would kill the game. I said what I meant exactly which is a mostly digital VTT based model for D&D would kill it. That meaning very little is printed or updated on paper, *much like whats currently going on*. They're not going to pull in modern teenagers just by going digital. It may save them money immediately but I really do not think it'll keep long term players who definitely make up the majority of the playerbase.
> 
> ...




Where are people getting this idea that D&D is going 100% digital?  

There's no evidence for this, and they just spent several months publishing products that they've stated that are intended to stay in print, and are the products that game stores are expected to keep on hand.  

That would be Essentials.

To put this in 3e terms, they're not making the PHB, DMG and MM digital...just the 'Complete X' books.

Specifically they're the splat books.  The already announced Shadowfell supplement is still coming out, as is Mosnter Vault 2.  Same with this summer's superadventure.

This doesn't even include any products that haven't been announced yet at DDXP.

It's like people complaining that the NHL  All Star game isn't going to be East vs. West anymore and then complaining that the NHL won't survive once they start having the players wear blindfolds when they're on the ice.


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## Aegeri (Jan 17, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> That's why I called it an olive branch, and why I was a little saddened, but ultimately not surprised, to see that some took offence to it and what it represented. Every time I see someone call it 'dumbed down 4e' a little part of me wants to scream and froth at the mouth and chew them out.




There is one main reason for this and the arguments have yet to be fully resolved. If I were you, I'd expect this to get worse and _especially_ if 4E falls over essentials is going to take the brunt of the blame/hate by the community. If you've seen hate now, just wait until heroes of shadow comes out and any "new" class doesn't follow AEDU (at-will, encounter, daily and utility power format. Like all the classes in the original PHB).

The first is that a lot of us who play 4E, including myself do not like 3.5 and I think that game is absolutely terribly designed. I hated the concept of fighters that did absolutely nothing except swing an axe for increasingly little return, while any spellcaster eclipsed them in power so bad it was just brutal for that player. That 4E gave martial classes like fighters the _same_ degree of options and balanced the power level out was a revelation. One that a tremendous amount of people really liked about 4E. It was equivalent and you could build any class with a bunch of great options at every level - instead of being completely screwed if you weren't a spellcaster.

When essentials "regresses" it started to look like pieces of the system that 4E was built on that those who actually liked 4E played it for were going. Martial classes got the options that finally made them equivalent "stripped away". Slayers, Knights, Hunters and Thieves are heavily toned down on options, being near literal linear railroads from level 1 to 30 (they get a paragon path and ED choice). It isn't really that these are replacements for older martial classes, which they are certainly _not_ in any manner and it's more that it indicated (to many) the future of 4E design. That more classes would lack the options and abilities that were enjoyed by all other classes since release, would turn into boring MBA spamming "railroads" these players don't enjoy.

Now if they are right or not remains to be seen and I think HoS would be the proving part here. If we have a book where all the classes - except maybe spellcasters like the necromancer/nethermancer (mage builds incidenally) - lack AEDU options then their conspiracy theories will have been proven right. That essentials was the "death" of normal 4E design and now the game has been changed for the worse. Basically that the game design principles that many (including myself) liked about 4E initially have now been abandoned in favor of appealing to people who weren't there since the start. 

In effect wizards would be shooting themselves at the foot, because essentials is still close enough to 4E that it really doesn't change a bloody thing to begin with. It doesn't make casters gods who can do whatever they want to break the game and the essentials classes keep up with traditional classes very well. Straightforward and direct does not equal them being bad or worse by any means. The problem with this though is that traditional 4E fans really hate it. On another forum where I make the OP for the 4E general thread, the posters in there really dislike essentials and the general direction of the company. Essentials was loudly and very often complained about as dumbing the game down or appealing to grognards instead of wizards actual fans. Although a few of my players are using essential classes (Executioner and Mage), I've found there hasn't been a lot of interest in the essentials classes in general - the more simple martial classes especially don't appeal very much to my players.

Ultimately that's really the problem with essentials and why certain decisions, like making magic missile auto-hit were not received well. Many playing 4E are playing it because it's a better, more balanced and generally more consistent system than 3.5. Many love the core design where martial classes actually had options and such. To summarize all this simply, when it looks like the game is going to start publishing new classes with *less* options than the old ones, it reduces enthusiasm and interest from those initial 4E fans. They feel rather aggrieved by this and if future books cease to support AEDU classes, instead of the more railroaded (arguably) and class feature based essentials style they are going to get _more_ bitter. If support for older classes also ends, another fear from many of those older fans then they might stop subscribing DDI/buying new books altogether. 

So ultimately wizards has put themselves into an incredibly precarious position and hasn't really done them any favors whatsoever. Essentials coming out, with the sparse release schedule afterwards and the canceling of books is being taken to indicate a total lack of leadership/direction at wizards. If Wizards goes to a 5E, expect the criticism already directed at essentials style classes to grow and the decision to release essentials as being the death blow of 4E.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 17, 2011)

The problem many of us may be having is that we don't believe them.  

No, really, this time we're going to keep the books in print. It's not like when we talked about incorporating errata into the core books with reprinting and told our suppliers we weren't reprinting them and then told online fans that we just had billions of copies lying around so there was no need to reprint them and then came out with a new players handbook...


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 17, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> There is one main reason for this and the arguments have yet to be fully resolved. If I were you, I'd expect this to get worse and _especially_ if 4E falls over essentials is going to take the brunt of the blame/hate by the community. If you've seen hate now, just wait until heroes of shadow comes out and any "new" class doesn't follow AEDU (at-will, encounter, daily and utility power format. Like all the classes in the original PHB).
> 
> The first is that a lot of us who play 4E, including myself do not like 3.5 and I think that game is absolutely terribly designed. I hated the concept of fighters that did absolutely nothing except swing an axe for increasingly little return, while any spellcaster eclipsed them in power so bad it was just brutal for that player. That 4E gave martial classes like fighters the _same_ degree of options and balanced the power level out was a revelation. One that a tremendous amount of people really liked about 4E. It was equivalent and you could build any class with a bunch of great options at every level - instead of being completely screwed if you weren't a spellcaster.



I'm right there with you. I hated the design philosophy behind 3.x, and hence even earlier editions. I loved that 4e threw all that on its ear.

That said, I also like that being able to play a fighter with tons of options and powers is appealing to me, but that it is not _necessary_.

Some of the gamers in my group love playing, but frankly lack the interest in the tactical options required to keep up to the spellcasters. For those players, Slayers and Knights and Thieves are a godsend.

And not only them; even I have thought it would be fun to use some of them for certain concepts. Less time picking "just the right power" means more time to think up some outlandish or gristly flavour text for what I am about to do, even if, in game terms, it is little more than an MBA.

But like I said, some players enjoy the game at the 'spamming your MBA' level, and anything more complicated paralyzes them with indecision. It sounds odd, but it happens in my group with certain players every time we get into a fight. And come level-up time? Ugh. I either have to hand-hold some through the decision making process, or I get glazed over looks and a disinterested "yeah, that one is fine, whatever" at the first power listed that does more damage than the others and is little more than an MBA with extra [W]s attached. 

The Essentials builds are dead simple to play, but still mechanically viable.



> When essentials "regresses" it started to look like pieces of the system that 4E was built on that those who actually liked 4E played it for were going. Martial classes got the options that finally made them equivalent "stripped away". Slayers, Knights, Hunters and Thieves are heavily toned down on options, being near literal linear railroads from level 1 to 30 (they get a paragon path and ED choice). It isn't really that these are replacements for older martial classes, which they are certainly _not_ in any manner and it's more that it indicated (to many) the future of 4E design. That more classes would lack the options and abilities that were enjoyed by all other classes since release, would turn into boring MBA spamming "railroads" these players don't enjoy.



Nobody is forcing anybody (outside of sanctioned events) to use this material! That's the part that I don't understand; can't we all just get along?



> Now if they are right or not remains to be seen and I think HoS would be the proving part here. If we have a book where all the classes - except maybe spellcasters like the necromancer/nethermancer (mage builds incidenally) - lack AEDU options then their conspiracy theories will have been proven right. That essentials was the "death" of normal 4E design and now the game has been changed for the worse. Basically that the game design principles that many (including myself) liked about 4E initially have now been abandoned in favor of appealing to people who weren't there since the start.



I'm sorry Aegeri, I respect your posts and opinions usually, but I fail to see any overarching conspiracy here. New builds that don't resemble old builds do not make it so that you cannot use the old builds anymore. There is already more material published for this game than pretty much any group will be able to use in several decades of gaming. What's the harm in trying to ALSO appeal to others who may have differing tastes? The game CAN and DOES support BOTH. Simultaneously even. 



> In effect wizards would be shooting themselves at the foot, because essentials is still close enough to 4E that it really doesn't change a bloody thing to begin with. It doesn't make casters gods who can do whatever they want to break the game and the essentials classes keep up with traditional classes very well. Straightforward and direct does not equal them being bad or worse by any means. The problem with this though is that traditional 4E fans really hate it. On another forum where I make the OP for the 4E general thread, the posters in there really dislike essentials and the general direction of the company. Essentials was loudly and very often complained about as dumbing the game down or appealing to grognards instead of wizards actual fans. Although a few of my players are using essential classes (Executioner and Mage), I've found there hasn't been a lot of interest in the essentials classes in general - the more simple martial classes especially don't appeal very much to my players.



 So nobody is forcing people who don't like it to use it. Without it, mixed with older material, or standalone, it's still D&D.



> Ultimately that's really the problem with essentials and why certain decisions, like making magic missile auto-hit were not received well. Many playing 4E are playing it because it's a better, more balanced and generally more consistent system than 3.5. Many love the core design where martial classes actually had options and such. To summarize all this simply, when it looks like the game is going to start publishing new classes with *less* options than the old ones, it reduces enthusiasm and interest from those initial 4E fans. They feel rather aggrieved by this and if future books cease to support AEDU classes, instead of the more railroaded (arguably) and class feature based essentials style they are going to get _more_ bitter. If support for older classes also ends, another fear from many of those older fans then they might stop subscribing DDI/buying new books altogether.



 I understand what you're saying, but I think that it's heading into hyperbole territory. There are enough people that like the old design enough that support for it will not truly end or even be supplanted, but supplemented.



> So ultimately wizards has put themselves into an incredibly precarious position and hasn't really done them any favors whatsoever. Essentials coming out, with the sparse release schedule afterwards and the canceling of books is being taken to indicate a total lack of leadership/direction at wizards. If Wizards goes to a 5E, expect the criticism already directed at essentials style classes to grow and the decision to release essentials as being the death blow of 4E.



I'm not arguing that they aren't in a difficult position; they are. No doubt. But calling Essentials the Deathblow of 4e would be sensationalism at best. If 4e dies, it will be in spite of Essentials. The Splatbook mentality was already making death saves, and if they'd clung to that, 4e would have died anyway, Essentials or no Essentials. Any blame would be pure scapegoatism. I hate using -isms, but there you go: two in one paragraph.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 17, 2011)

> Where are people getting this idea that D&D is going 100% digital?




Its a valid concern given their interest in DDI being a raging success coupled with the (still?) unexplained disappearance of books from the publishing schedule, and the overall trends of adoption of technology.


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## Aegeri (Jan 17, 2011)

Bear in mind Nemesis, I am merely repeating the arguments that I've read on essentials from here, Penny-Arcade and the official forums (dear god the official forums...).



Nemesis Destiny said:


> I'm right there with you. I hated the design philosophy behind 3.x, and hence even earlier editions. I loved that 4e threw all that on its ear.



Exactly and to very many people essentials is wizards going back to this design they dislike.



> Some of the gamers in my group love playing, but frankly lack the interest in the tactical options required to keep up to the spellcasters. For those players, Slayers and Knights and Thieves are a godsend.



I actually fundamentally agree with you - but it's the kind of design these classes represent that some dislike considerably.



> Nobody is forcing anybody (outside of sanctioned events) to use this material!



Except as the argument advances along these lines, you'll find that the fact essentials has "ruined" future material becomes the problem. Take the drama on wizards over Heroes of Shadow having "builds" of the mage with the necromancer/nethermancer as schools of magic instead of genuine new "shadow" classes in the style of those from the PHB. The point here is that essentials to many has been branded as a 4.5 sneaking in to replace the games older AEDU design. This is of course rather ridiculous, but that is the general impression and so it doesn't look favorably on wizards. 

It's not far enough for many "grognards" to begin with (as it's still 4E, which we both agree on incidentally) and it's an abandonment of what many liked about 4E design for many ... uhhh... "older" 4E fans? (Not sure what to say here).

That's really the problem.



> That's the part that I don't understand; can't we all just get along?



Given a lot of these people feel essentials is the reason for 4Es current problems, I don't think that's going to happen.



> I'm sorry Aegeri, I respect your posts and opinions usually, but I fail to see any overarching conspiracy here. New builds that don't resemble old builds do not make it so that you cannot use the old builds anymore.



This isn't the argument - the argument is that it means no _new_ builds or classes in the old style will appear. That's what they are afraid of and why Heroes of Shadow is such an important book for Wizards to prove otherwise.



> The game CAN and DOES support BOTH. Simultaneously even.



Actually this isn't entirely true. I am constantly amazed by games where people are insistent on "No essentials" (like this thread) or people running games that are "Essentials only". This is an absolutely _terrible_ position for games to be split between for wizards. It shows a complete and absolute failure on their part to communicate clearly enough that essentials is just more 4E and fits in with everything else in the system. It means we're starting to get into a situation where you need two conversations and sets of assumptions: One for a game where essentials material is available and one where it isn't. 



> There are enough people that like the old design enough that support for it will not truly end or even be supplanted, but supplemented.



Wizards has to prove this and like it or not, the test for this is Heroes of Shadow. Expect this kind of argument to become more vocal and worse if Heroes of Shadow is all essentials style and doesn't have support for earlier classes.

Especially given that some earlier classes have _nothing_. No divnie power 2, no primal power 2 means that the Runepriest and Seeker are left in an immensely poor position. An arcane power 2 could really help out the artificer as well. 

There was a great thing about the predictability of power books, especially because Psionic Power was terrific. Added some great new fluff and _terrific_ crunch at the same time. It was so good it actually changed my very negative opinions on psionic classes!



> I'm not arguing that they aren't in a difficult position; they are. No doubt. But calling Essentials the Deathblow of 4e would be sensationalism at best. If 4e dies, it will be in spite of Essentials.



I disagree in this situation. Many are going to view it as the death of 4E due to the problem I mentioned above: Splitting the fan base and dividing games between "Allows essentials" and "Disallows". That's not an insignificant or unimportant factor by any means.



> The Splatbook mentality was already making death saves, and if they'd clung to that, 4e would have died anyway, Essentials or no Essentials.



I am actually far from convinced by this, especially because Dark Sun (by all accounts) sold extremely well, was almost _universally praised_ and is widely considered to be 4Es finest book of any sort. There was more than enough life in that format - especially if they pulled back the release schedule to not be so utterly aggressive book wise. But pre-essentials they were doing things a lot of people approved of. They gave epic monsters their gonads back with better maths (better design of monsters full stop actually), there was predictability in the schedule and _always_ something to look forward to, Dark Sun is their finest hour campaign setting wise by far and there was _certainty_. Since essentials DDI has also gone downhill (Online character builder, monster builder left for dead, DDI has become more fluff heavy with little viable crunch when they do publish some etc) and to many the correlation is just too distinct.

The point is that regardless if essentials is/what does potentially cause 4Es downfall ultimately (probably combined with Wizards incompetency with DDI), it's hated widely by a good chunk of the community. They are going to home in on essentials as a cause of it like a diver in the middle of the pacific wearing his lucky bloody steak belt.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 17, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Bear in mind Nemesis, I am merely repeating the arguments that I've read on essentials from here, Penny-Arcade and the official forums (dear god the official forums...).



I avoid the official forum like the plague that it is for a reason. It's almost as bad as a Blizzard forum 



> Exactly and to very many people essentials is wizards going back to this design they dislike.
> 
> I actually fundamentally agree with you - but it's the kind of design these classes represent that some dislike considerably.
> 
> Except as the argument advances along these lines, you'll find that the fact essentials has "ruined" future material becomes the problem. Take the drama on wizards over Heroes of Shadow having "builds" of the mage with the necromancer/nethermancer as schools of magic instead of genuine new "shadow" classes in the style of those from the PHB. The point here is that essentials to many has been branded as a 4.5 sneaking in to replace the games older AEDU design. This is of course rather ridiculous, but that is the general impression and so it doesn't look favorably on wizards.



Yes, I can see that this may be happening, and I recognise that some will be upset by it, but if anything, moving splatbook content to Dragon will better allow for older-style 4e alongside E-style stuff. Consider how much page space printing all those powers took up compared to the class feature with progression format that E-classes use. I can understand why they'd want to get away from that.

At the end of the day, much of the blame can be laid at the feet of something you touch upon in your last sentence: optics. It _looks_ bad. For some.



> It's not far enough for many "grognards" to begin with (as it's still 4E, which we both agree on incidentally) and it's an abandonment of what many liked about 4E design for many ... uhhh... "older" 4E fans? (Not sure what to say here).



Hah, now we have 'classic 4e' grognards? The term is beginning to lose all meaning.



> Given a lot of these people feel essentials is the reason for 4Es current problems, I don't think that's going to happen.



You are most likely correct... but it doesn't mean I have to stop trying to play peacemaker.



> This isn't the argument - the argument is that it means no _new_ builds or classes in the old style will appear. That's what they are afraid of and why Heroes of Shadow is such an important book for Wizards to prove otherwise.



Symbolically, yes, I think that's true, but it doesn't mean that support for older classes won't materialize at some future point.



> Actually this isn't entirely true. I am constantly amazed by games where people are insistent on "No essentials" (like this thread) or people running games that are "Essentials only". This is an absolutely _terrible_ position for games to be split between for wizards. It shows a complete and absolute failure on their part to communicate clearly enough that essentials is just more 4E and fits in with everything else in the system. It means we're starting to get into a situation where you need two conversations and sets of assumptions: One for a game where essentials material is available and one where it isn't.



This is the crux of the problems. This divide; I don't understand it.

Actually, that's not true. I understand why on both counts. 

*Essentials-only* folks are trying to strip away the 2.5 years of crufty Dragon and splatbook feats and powers. In so doing, I believe they're throwing out the baby with the bathwater, but it's an easy call to make.

The *No Essentials Allowed *crowd, OTOH, seems to be suffering from a case of fear of the unknown. Most of the threads I've seen where DMs say they won't allow it, they've not even read it. They just say 'no' on general (misguided) principle. They think there's too much power creep, or that somehow by allowing more options to their players that things will be ruined, or that the two are different 'systems' and not compatible. This is the argument I don't understand.


> Wizards has to prove this and like it or not, the test for this is Heroes of Shadow. Expect this kind of argument to become more vocal and worse if Heroes of Shadow is all essentials style and doesn't have support for earlier classes.



 Considering that [I think] Mearls has said that Essentials design informs class structure "going forward" (how I _hate _that term), I'd say this is a foregone conclusion. Maybe there will be a nod to older design. Maybe a bone will be thrown. I'd be happy with either, honestly.



> Especially given that some earlier classes have _nothing_. No divnie power 2, no primal power 2 means that the Runepriest and Seeker are left in an immensely poor position. An arcane power 2 could really help out the artificer as well.



Can't argue with you here. We aren't arguing, really, anyway, but I agree. Runepriest, Seeker, and Artificer could use some more love. I'd like to see it.



> There was a great thing about the predictability of power books, especially because Psionic Power was terrific. Added some great new fluff and _terrific_ crunch at the same time. It was so good it actually changed my very negative opinions on psionic classes!



Crux Point Two, right here. Predictability. A lot of folks are upset because it isn't what they were used to, and more still because they expected things to continue along the garden path of class splats and then race splats and a smattering of fluffy books. I see why this is disconcerting to some, but frankly, I was kind of tired of the splat mentality, myself.

Don't get me wrong, I like new/more options as much as the next guy, but it really started to feel like they were dragging things out for the sake of dragging things out, so they could release another book. Frankly, splats or not, they're still doing this. I want my options presented in greater completeness from the start, _damnit!_ Variations on those themes can come later.

They've shown Enchanters, Evokers, and Illusionists, but clearly already had concepts for the other "classical" schools of magic in the works, as evidenced in some of the Redbox powers and HoS. The degree to which they drag this kind of thing out is frankly painful. There are still characters from past editions that I can't _legally_ make yet. Two and a half years in.



> I disagree in this situation. Many are going to view it as the death of 4E due to the problem I mentioned above: Splitting the fan base and dividing games between "Allows essentials" and "Disallows". That's not an insignificant or unimportant factor by any means.



Like I pointed out, this is a combination of optics, and... what do you even call the closed-minded no-E/all-E divide? I liken it to D&D NIMBY-type behaviour.



> I am actually far from convinced by this, especially because Dark Sun (by all accounts) sold extremely well, was almost _universally praised_ and is widely considered to be 4Es finest book of any sort. There was more than enough life in that format - especially if they pulled back the release schedule to not be so utterly aggressive book wise. But pre-essentials they were doing things a lot of people approved of. They gave epic monsters their gonads back with better maths (better design of monsters full stop actually).



I would hardly call DS a splatbook; it's an entire campaign setting. Sure, it doesn't come in a box, but that doesn't make it a splat.

I think one of the reasons that DS was so acclaimed is that 4e was a perfect way to express the nuances of the setting. I looked at it in 2e when it came out, and I wasn't impressed. It seemed like something designed to appeal to munchkins, at the time. 3e was too shiney for DS. But now, 4e, it has what it takes to represent such a setting properly.

When they announced DS for 4e I actually got excited. I don't use campaigns, as I homebrew most of the time, but DS got my juices flowing, as it were. I still planned to use it in my campaign as a drop-in, and with alterations, but I still planned to use it. Most of the other stuff, like Eberron and FR, I can't. Too big, too detailed. DS is perfect though.



> The point is that regardless if essentials is/what does potentially cause 4Es downfall ultimately (probably combined with Wizards incompetency with DDI), it's hated widely by a good chunk of the community. They are going to home in on essentials as a cause of it like a diver in the middle of the pacific wearing his lucky bloody steak belt.



Perhaps, but it will be because that's what they want to make of it. It will serve as their scapegoat, their sacrificial lamb. A quote from a song seems appropriate here, _"Life is what you make it, and if you make it death, then rest your soul."
_


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## Brian Compton (Jan 17, 2011)

Here's what I'd like to know: how does a retailer react to seeing the company that is #1 in the market slashing their catalog to four new products in the upcoming year?  Does he hope people use the opportunity to go back and fill in holes in their library, or maybe try a new system?  Or does he start to get very worried that one of his key revenue sources is going to be extremely limited this year?  

I hope DDXP is a source of happy shiny news and new product.  But I also think that that's not likely.  In comics, whenever big changes are afoot, the PR departments usually say over and over, "Look for a big announcement at ________ Con!". But that isn't happening here.  And sticking with comics, D&D dropping to four new books total is like Marvel dropping its line to around ten titles a month.  In a niche market like gaming or comics where even your #1 seller's numbers are laughable in comparison to other media, when #1 cuts back significantly that's painful to a seller.  If this is a harbinger of a new business model where WotC is selling new material directly in a digital only format, I hope retailers learn to adapt quickly so that this doesn't do them in.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 17, 2011)

Brian Compton said:


> Here's what I'd like to know: how does a retailer react to seeing the company that is #1 in the market slashing their catalog to four new products in the upcoming year?  Does he hope people use the opportunity to go back and fill in holes in their library, or maybe try a new system?  Or does he start to get very worried that one of his key revenue sources is going to be extremely limited this year?
> 
> I hope DDXP is a source of happy shiny news and new product.  But I also think that that's not likely.  In comics, whenever big changes are afoot, the PR departments usually say over and over, "Look for a big announcement at ________ Con!". But that isn't happening here.  And sticking with comics, D&D dropping to four new books total is like Marvel dropping its line to around ten titles a month.  In a niche market like gaming or comics where even your #1 seller's numbers are laughable in comparison to other media, when #1 cuts back significantly that's painful to a seller.  If this is a harbinger of a new business model where WotC is selling new material directly in a digital only format, I hope retailers learn to adapt quickly so that this doesn't do them in.



My small city (population generously pegged around 75k) has _two_ FLGSes and several bookstores. One of the two FLGS retailers doesn't even sell D&D. He keeps the PHB, MM, DMG line in stock and that's it. The other one doesn't know what the 'F' is supposed to stand for, and puts horrendous markup on all his products (ridiculous in the internet age!) and so probably doesn't move much product either.

Both stores don't look to be going out of business anytime soon. I think the retailers will adapt. Most of them probably already have. There are lots of games out there that aren't D&D and that sell.

I'm not saying that withdrawing product from the release calendar won't be hard on the retailers if those products are not added to by future announcements, but the revenue they would have got for D&D will be at least partly recouped by sales of other things, and other systems. Ampersand saying that cards and board games are making prominent appearances this year was not an idle quip.

Ravenloft sold really well by all accounts, and we can probably expect Ashardalon to follow suit. Even if you apply the Law of Sequels and it only sells 66% of what Ravenloft did, it will still be significant.


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## Siberys (Jan 17, 2011)

I don't know if it ties at all into the discussion here, but I think it might be worth considering;

Essentials classes still use the AEDU setup, as odd as that may seem at first glance. There are three ways you can break up Essentials classes; those that do / do not have dailies, those that do / do not have traditional encounters, and those that have stances / those that have at-wills.

In each case, mechanically there is very nearly no difference. It simply restricts the choices the player can make. There's the odd fluff ability gained at such-and-such a level, but those hardly break the paradigm.

Seriously; classes without dailies get a static damage boost to make up for it. Those that don't get to choose encounter powers instead have a single scaling power they get multiple uses of. And those without at-wills get stances, which make their BAs function LIKE at-wills. Essentials classes still fit into 4e's character advancement scheme perfectly; it is all just presented differently. It's just like how a psionic class has no encounter powers, yet functions as though it did due to PP.


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## TirionAnthion (Jan 17, 2011)

*Retail Perspective*

As someone who works at a game store, I have mixed feelings about the online content. In one way, the lack of new products is frustrating. Without new releases it can be hard to generate excitement for the Brand. When I don't have something exciting for D&D on the new release shelf, it takes some of the momentum out of the game. 

However, one way to counter this is to put Essentials on a prominent end cap of an aisle. Make it visible to everyone that walks in the store. It becomes the "look here, D&D!" focal point of the store. This has worked well at my store and we sell a fair bit of Essentials because of it. 

The problem with DDI, for a retailer, is that it cuts into book sales. Customers are less likely to buy Book X, when they can just get the material in the Compendium. This hurts are sales and cuts down on the amount of product we move. However, if the book does not exist in the first place, then we don't have to worry about competing with the online source. The money we would spend on stocking the book can be better spent elsewhere.

For my store, our bigger problem has been competition with online retailers. I have a subset of customers who like to come in, browse through the books and ask alot of questions. After anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes of this they will say "Amazon has this book for 30% less, can you match that?". When I can't they leave. It is frustrating because they never intended to buy from me, they just wanted to get hands on with the product. But that is a topic for another time.

On the whole, WotC has been very supportive of the FLGS scene in the last year, with cool products and programs for stores that participate. While the increased online offerings does change the way we stock our shelves, it is not all gloom and doom!

Anyway, I hope that gives some insight into the retailer perspective. Someone mentioned upthread that they were curious for a retailer's perspective so I thought I would offer one.

As far as my personal feelings, I have been a subscriber since the beginning. I am almost exclusively a DM. I own all of the books (employee discounts are great!). I am not terribly upset about the book cancellations. If I had to choose between spending $20 toe $30 dollars on an essentials update to the PHB or having that material released through my existing DDI subscription, I choose DDI all the way.


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## Ahrimon (Jan 17, 2011)

TirionAnthion said:


> As someone who works at a game store, I have mixed feelings about the online content. In one way, the lack of new products is frustrating. Without new releases it can be hard to generate excitement for the Brand. When I don't have something exciting for D&D on the new release shelf, it takes some of the momentum out of the game.




I would like to see them offer up subscription cards to DDI.  You know, the little scratch off credit cards.  That puts a physical product in the game store for the online product.  And a reason to come back to the store if that is your main method of getting your DDI time.


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## Dice4Hire (Jan 17, 2011)

TirionAnthion said:


> On the whole, WotC has been very supportive of the FLGS scene in the last year, with cool products and programs for stores that participate. While the increased online offerings does change the way we stock our shelves, it is not all gloom and doom!




Yes, WOTC has done a lot of work for the LGS, and I hope hat is not going to be changed.


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## JoeGKushner (Jan 17, 2011)

Several retailers I spoke with were not happy and a few indicated they thought 5th ed on the horizon and not to be announced at Gen Con because WoTC is so large that unlike most companies they don't need Gen Con to make up their revenues.




Brian Compton said:


> Here's what I'd like to know: how does a retailer react to seeing the company that is #1 in the market slashing their catalog to four new products in the upcoming year?  Does he hope people use the opportunity to go back and fill in holes in their library, or maybe try a new system?  Or does he start to get very worried that one of his key revenue sources is going to be extremely limited this year?
> 
> I hope DDXP is a source of happy shiny news and new product.  But I also think that that's not likely.  In comics, whenever big changes are afoot, the PR departments usually say over and over, "Look for a big announcement at ________ Con!". But that isn't happening here.  And sticking with comics, D&D dropping to four new books total is like Marvel dropping its line to around ten titles a month.  In a niche market like gaming or comics where even your #1 seller's numbers are laughable in comparison to other media, when #1 cuts back significantly that's painful to a seller.  If this is a harbinger of a new business model where WotC is selling new material directly in a digital only format, I hope retailers learn to adapt quickly so that this doesn't do them in.


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## Aegeri (Jan 17, 2011)

It does seem very odd that Wizards have been so supportive of FLGS by giving them books early, the in store encounters programs and such. Then they turn around and gut their physical book release schedule. I still want to believe Wizards is planning something and this isn't as bad as it looks like, but that is far too optimistic for me.


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## lutecius (Jan 17, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> > Where are people getting this idea that D&D is going 100% digital?
> 
> 
> 
> Its a valid concern given their interest in DDI being a raging success coupled with the (still?) unexplained disappearance of books from the publishing schedule, and the overall trends of adoption of technology.



considering the state of ddi (anemic magazines, buggy CB) and wotc's past experience with digital features, it would be very imprudent for them to go that route just now.

I think they're only recycling the content of these books as a quick patch to prevent subscribers from canceling en masse.

I believe the danger for now is the d&d department not being profitable enough to survive, not ddi becoming "a raging success" and leaving book readers behind.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 17, 2011)

> ...it would be very imprudent for them to go that route just now




I agree.

I said as much upthread somewhere...and/or possibly in one of the other speculative threads floating around right now.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 17, 2011)

The speculation isn't that things are going to go digital starting now but that we're now firmly on that path. I think the original intent on 4Es launch was that DDI would play a supportive role and be worth it's price for that function. 

That's all well and good when you also see books released at a steady or quick rate. Now though we've just heard about 3 cuts which leaves just a few books for the year. There are hints that content will appear in DDI. We're looking towards the future which based on the trends seen in the past year leads us to believe wotc wants to push for a digital base (in the future).

That certainly appears to be Wizards deciding digital is the way forward.


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## the Jester (Jan 17, 2011)

Looking on the bright side, maybe this year's slim pickings will let me catch up on the 3-8 other D&D books I've yet to pick up that are on my list.


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## SlyDoubt (Jan 17, 2011)

I have to say calling the DS book a splatbook is absolutely hilarious. If that's what qualifies as a splatbook I don't know what's going on anymore.

On the topic of essentials. I don't really understand all the crying. I understand it from the perspective that it is taking development time away from what has been the normal 4E structure for 2+ years. Beyond that I really, really don't. Because honestly, all their doing is changing the framework a class can have and making it more diverse. 

That's not why people dislike 3.5. No one ever cites the fact that the classes are all over the place in abilities they gain, feats, spells, whatever as a problem with 3.5. At least I've never seen that as a complaint. I'd much rather have variety in class framework than the perception of balance given by the traditional 4E model. 

In addition, how many feats are there for let's say the fighter? How many powers? Certainly there are enough to last decades. Heaven forbid wizards should stretch their brains and create new class structures using the 4e blueprints. Classes that don't break the game or even separate themselves except because they're labeled 'essentials'. 

I would really like to know what the reaction would be if these builds were presented in 'Martial Power 3'. I feel there'd be much much less resistance.


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## Goonalan (Jan 17, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I agree.
> 
> I said as much upthread somewhere...and/or possibly in one of the other speculative threads floating around right now.




Imprudent or not it looks like that's where we're going, and while that's not my first choice I think from what's been said/written here and elsewhere then that's the way forward for our hobby.

Although I thought there were other threads prior to the present cache of 'sky-falling' threads, such as this, that were concerned with poor sales of books/minis et al with FLGS etc stating that they have lots of unsold stock (or similar). 

Also with Pathfinder doing their thing (joint 1st for sales) then the market just got squeezed so tight you can hear the pips, let's face it some of the PF APs et all look lush (not my thing but I bought a few just to read and digest). 

So, for me, and I think WOTC, it's a DDi future whether your face-to-face or via the VTT, and if everything gets folded in so it all interacts then I'll be as happy as larry, although I'd still like a few books here and there to read in the head (I believe 'the head' is the correct nomenclature for 'smallest room' on yonder side of the pond).

Goonalan


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 17, 2011)

> Imprudent or not it looks like that's where we're going, and while that's not my first choice I think from what's been said/written here and elsewhere then that's the way forward for our hobby.




I agree with this as well.

It sucks to be roadkill on the Information Superhighway, but barring some catastrophic revelation about corrosive effects of our digitized lifestyle (or the technologies that support it), that's the way we're going.

I've heard guys in tech companies already talking about implantable devices being on the market within a couple of decades.  Pipe dream?  Perhaps.  But this is the first time I can remember such thoughts being expressed outside of sci-fI books or interviews with scientists I've never heard of...


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 17, 2011)

JoeGKushner said:


> And how about the magic items in their new classes that were 'revolutionized' by essentials? Yeah, that's what most of us who said it was a new edition though. WoTC couldn't even follow through on their own ball game.




To be honest, I'm having a hard time parsing your first two sentences, so I'm not even sure what it is you're actually questioning.

But as far as magic items are concerned... all I'd say would be this this:  If you can't find what you need in your hard copies of Adventurer's Vault I and II... you probably need to lower your expectations on the kind of magic your players should have.  

There is enough printed 4E material out there to play the game for decades, even if you choose not to never subscribe to DDI.  Even if every single new D&D book from this point forward was a strictly-digital affair... your game will in no way suffer.  You have plenty to run a successful game.  More than plenty, actually.  Yeah, there might be some cool stuff released that you won't get to use because of your insistence that if you can't "own" it, you won't get it... but that will in no way make 4E any less a playable experience with just the books you have.

But that's even beside the point, because I suspect that there will _always_ be a printed part of the game found on bookshelves.  Simply because of keeping the brand active in game stores, bookstores, and websites means it can be physically purchased, thereby making it something to buy, gift and loan to get other people involved in the game.  But if other "splatbooks" or character option races or build articles go straight the DDI before appearing in hardcover first?  Not an issue.


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## shadzar (Jan 18, 2011)

Aegeri said:


> Actually this isn't entirely true. I am constantly amazed by games where people are insistent on "No essentials" (like this thread) or people running games that are "Essentials only".This is an absolutely _terrible_ position for games to be split between for wizards.



You might be interested in checking out this thread if you have not yet done so.

The fragmentation of the D&D community... was it inevitable?



> It shows a complete and absolute failure on their part to communicate clearly enough that essentials is just more 4E and fits in with everything else in the system.




Nevermind, you NEED to check out that thread; as does anyone not understanding this divide.


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## Ajar (Jan 18, 2011)

SlyDoubt said:


> I have to say calling the DS book a splatbook is  absolutely hilarious. If that's what qualifies as a splatbook I don't  know what's going on anymore.
> 
> On the topic of essentials. I don't really understand all the crying. I  understand it from the perspective that it is taking development time  away from what has been the normal 4E structure for 2+ years. Beyond  that I really, really don't. Because honestly, all their doing is  changing the framework a class can have and making it more diverse.
> 
> ...




I was apprehensive about Essentials, but I also thought the Power  splatbooks were coming a bit too quickly early in 4E's life cycle. I  didn't really think that publication frequency for crunch was  sustainable. I stopped buying splatbooks after the first (Arcane Power for me) and instead focused my buying on books that contained significant (to me) content that I couldn't get on DDI: DMG2, MM2/3 (monster lore), AV2 (vehicle and alchemy rules), Eberron PG (more alchemy), and both Dark Sun books. 

Prerelease and shortly thereafter, I had a few problems with Essentials:


It added more support for the "standard" classes when what 4E  really needs is more support for undersupported classes. Tried building a  Runepriest lately? A Battlemind? Since WotC does not have infinite  resources, oversupporting Fighters necessarily implies undersupporting  something else, and that's exactly what happened.
Essentials builds are mostly incompatible with the other class  builds. The Executioner's poisons are cool, but since they _de  facto_ replace daily powers, why not allow other Assassin builds to  take them in place of a daily? Part of the appeal of 4E is the  flexibility of individual classes when they receive sufficient crunch  support; why hamstring that by releasing incompatible builds?
On that note, it's impossible to pick up an Essentials class  feature by making a hybrid or multiclass character. So the Essentials  builds aren't just incompatible with other builds of the same class,  they're also incompatible with the rest of the classes.
The purist in me felt like Essentials added cruft to what I  thought was the cleanest and most consistent ruleset D&D had seen.  (Not the least complex, obviously.) The psionic power source was a great  example of how to add interesting crunch while minimizing cruft; I felt  the piecemeal approach of Essentials added too much cruft (namely, lots  and lots of special rules for each build of each class) without adding enough _interesting_ crunch. The sacrifice didn't seem worth it.
 I'd hoped that some of these problems would be addressed. Thankfully,  we're seeing a bit more content for undersupported classes via DDI. I  remain hopeful that some Essentials options will be made available to non-Essentials characters, since that should be feasible to implement. 

Also, when I read through the Essentials builds, some of my complaints turned out to be not quite as pronounced. The Thief, Knight, and Executioner all brought new and interesting things to the table and are builds I'd consider trying out. Probably not for a long campaign, since my characters are often hybrids (and sometimes multiclassed hybrids >_< ), but there's definitely some interesting crunch there that was worth bringing into the game. 

So on the whole I'm neutral on Essentials now that it's out. I certainly like the idea of an updated set of evergreen books, and I bought the Rules Compendium and Monster Vault. I've been very happy with both, although I wish the MV contained some guidance on what information to reveal with skill checks alongside its expanded monster lore. 

But we seem to have gotten into a "worst of both worlds" situation now. Content for both regular and Essentialized 4E is being drastically scaled back, but it looks like we also aren't getting more cool stuff in the historical 4E format (like the Dark Sun books). I'm hoping the content calendar will be updated with another couple of releases, although I don't think we need to get all the way back to the fast release schedule we saw in the first couple of years of 4E.


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## Lordhawkins9 (Jan 19, 2011)

For those that you that are all for a purely digital D&D, I have a question for you.  What do you have left when WotC decides to stop supplying it?

Lets say 5E comes out and WotC makes it only available on DDI.  No physical books (less profit) and no PDF's (pirates).  Maybe it's the "BEST" D&D that ever comes out.  3 years later, WotC releases 6E to go in a different direction.  You like 5E more and want to stay with it.

Problem is...you don't own anything.

If it's all on their server and they stop hosting it...it's gone.  5E would never be played again because some tool in a suit told the tech guys to hit "delete".

I can go back and play D&D from 30 years back because I bought the books.  Will you be able to say the same about future editions?


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## Mapache (Jan 19, 2011)

Lordhawkins9 said:


> For those that you that are all for a purely digital D&D, I have a question for you.  What do you have left when WotC decides to stop supplying it?




The last version they posted which multiple people screen-scraped into archive files that get illegally distributed forever.


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## Chainsaw Mage (Jan 19, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I've heard guys in tech companies already talking about implantable devices being on the market within a couple of decades.  Pipe dream?  Perhaps.  But this is the first time I can remember such thoughts being expressed outside of sci-fI books or interviews with scientists I've never heard of...


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## Mapache (Jan 19, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I've heard guys in tech companies already talking about implantable devices being on the market within a couple of decades.  Pipe dream?  Perhaps.  But this is the first time I can remember such thoughts being expressed outside of sci-fI books or interviews with scientists I've never heard of...




Implantable devices are messy and run into all sorts of regulatory issues.  LCD contact lenses communicating wirelessly (or skin conductively) with the "phone" in your pocket which in turn runs on either a voice interface or a gesture-based one that talks to the glove(s) you're wearing (or heck, just use the lenses for eye-gesture-control)—that's only slightly beyond what we can do now, and doesn't depend on any magic breakthroughs, so it'll happen.  I'd put it at ten, maybe twenty years out.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 19, 2011)

Lordhawkins9 said:


> For those that you that are all for a purely digital D&D, I have a question for you.  What do you have left when WotC decides to stop supplying it?
> 
> Lets say 5E comes out and WotC makes it only available on DDI.  No physical books (less profit) and no PDF's (pirates).  Maybe it's the "BEST" D&D that ever comes out.  3 years later, WotC releases 6E to go in a different direction.  You like 5E more and want to stay with it.
> 
> ...




Well, speaking personally... I most likely won't WANT to keep playing it.  I play all different types of games and usually don't play the same game after more than a handful of campaigns so I have no need to still 'own' the material.

When 2E was released, I'd be hard-pressed to remember a 1E or BECMI game I ever played after that.  When 3E was released, I never again played 2E.  When I bought my 3.5 books, the 3E books went unused after that.  When 4E was released, it had been a couple years since I played 3.5.  And by the time 5E comes out... my current campaigns will probably have ended and I'd be on to playing something else (like Burning Wheel, or Feng Shui).

Granted, I know I'm not the norm... but I couldn't care less about 'owning' things past their usefulness.  That's because I've had to move several times in my 38 years, and during each pack... FOOMP!  My 1E books got tossed in the trash.  Then FOOMP... there went my 2E books.  My 3E books?  Gone too.  Still own my 3.5 books, but that's only because I currently own a house and don't plan on moving again.  Of course, I also have no intention of ever playing 3.5 again (excepting maybe at cons) so I could easily toss them out for all the good they are going to do me... so when the time comes, my 4E books will be nothing more than paperweights as well.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 19, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Well, speaking personally... I most likely won't WANT to keep playing it.  I play all different types of games and usually don't play the same game after more than a handful of campaigns so I have no need to still 'own' the material.
> 
> When 2E was released, I'd be hard-pressed to remember a 1E or BECMI game I ever played after that.  When 3E was released, I never again played 2E.  When I bought my 3.5 books, the 3E books went unused after that.  When 4E was released, it had been a couple years since I played 3.5.  And by the time 5E comes out... my current campaigns will probably have ended and I'd be on to playing something else (like Burning Wheel, or Feng Shui).
> 
> Granted, I know I'm not the norm... but I couldn't care less about 'owning' things past their usefulness.  That's because I've had to move several times in my 38 years, and during each pack... FOOMP!  My 1E books got tossed in the trash.  Then FOOMP... there went my 2E books.  My 3E books?  Gone too.  Still own my 3.5 books, but that's only because I currently own a house and don't plan on moving again.  Of course, I also have no intention of ever playing 3.5 again (excepting maybe at cons) so I could easily toss them out for all the good they are going to do me... so when the time comes, my 4E books will be nothing more than paperweights as well.



You seriously just tossed that stuff out? In the _trash_?

I mean, even in good condition, I know they don't get top dollar on ebay, so well-used will be nigh unsalable, but I mean... I just can't imagine doing that.

Give them to a young relative to learn with. See if a FLGS would put them in their used books for sale pile. Give them to a second hand store. Give them to some educational institution. Hell, even _recycle_ them.

I understand moving, as I've done it many times in my life, but the _trash_? That's harsh.

Don't take this rant personally; it's not intended as such. It's mostly rhetorical venting.


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## Chainsaw Mage (Jan 19, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> FOOMP!  My 1E books got tossed in the trash.  Then FOOMP... there went my 2E books.  My 3E books?  Gone too.  .




Something about this strikes me as indescribably sad.


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## AntlerDruid (Jan 19, 2011)

Honestly i am so tired of reading endless posts that 5E is coming for the past 2 years....yes it eventually will come but SO WHAT!?

It doesn't mean I am going to immediately dump 4E and jump to 5E. For a solid year, I played both Pathfinder and 4E. There is enough books to play 4E.

They say there will be possible news at the Con coming up.....so lets wait and see before yelling "the sky is falling!".

Personally I don't mind if books go digital if it means we gets book faster instead of having to wait for the books to be printed and they are high quality like the 4E books have been so far.

For those who do like the printed book version, they could make an option like other companies have where you can order a Print version or just do the downloaded version earlier or both.

Now I am VERY disappointed in the new CB.....they should not have released it as they did.....to alot of groups it is worthless since House Rules can not be implemented. I am still using the "classic" CB because of this.

I am also disappointed in Dragon delays.....but I am giving them January to improve this.....if it doesn't then I will cancel my DDI because right now I only have it for the "crunch" articles since the new CB is worthless to my group.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jan 20, 2011)

Chainsaw Mage said:


> Something about this strikes me as indescribably sad.




I understand...

Silver lining: the value of your 1Ed, 2Ed and 3Ed books just went up!


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 20, 2011)

Nemesis Destiny said:


> You seriously just tossed that stuff out? In the _trash_?
> 
> I mean, even in good condition, I know they don't get top dollar on ebay, so well-used will be nigh unsalable, but I mean... I just can't imagine doing that.
> 
> ...




I can certainly understand your venting and don't discount it in the slightest.  But as far as your suggestions, I didn't have any relatives / young friends who wanted them... and my nearest FLGS already had copies of all these books on their shelves.  I also didn't want to go through the hassle of selling them, because at the time (we're talking late 80s for my 1E stuff, mid '90s for my 2E) Ebay / Craigslist were either not invented or not a 'first-thought' idea like they would be now.

But I think the biggest reason why I was able to toss them without really worrying about it was just simply that they were just... things.  Objects.  And it's not the physical objects that hold any deep meaning or feeling for me, but the _memories_ I have of playing them.  So the same way I might toss out an old shirt, or dump a heap of VHS cassette tapes, or purge my filing cabinet of old written material like bad song lyrics I wrote years ago to pass the time... at some point they just become 'stuff'.  And once you realize you haven't touched (let alone looked at) something for over 7 - 10 years... the need to keep it (at least for me) has slipped away.

I know it's an anathema to some people and I don't blame them for not sharing my thoughts on the matter in the slightest... but for me... at a certain point what was once a 'memento' turns into 'junk'.  The memory is important.  The object no longer is.


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## Nemesis Destiny (Jan 20, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> I can certainly understand your venting and don't discount it in the slightest.  But as far as your suggestions, I didn't have any relatives / young friends who wanted them... and my nearest FLGS already had copies of all these books on their shelves.  I also didn't want to go through the hassle of selling them, because at the time (we're talking late 80s for my 1E stuff, mid '90s for my 2E) Ebay / Craigslist were either not invented or not a 'first-thought' idea like they would be now.
> 
> But I think the biggest reason why I was able to toss them without really worrying about it was just simply that they were just... things.  Objects.  And it's not the physical objects that hold any deep meaning or feeling for me, but the _memories_ I have of playing them.  So the same way I might toss out an old shirt, or dump a heap of VHS cassette tapes, or purge my filing cabinet of old written material like bad song lyrics I wrote years ago to pass the time... at some point they just become 'stuff'.  And once you realize you haven't touched (let alone looked at) something for over 7 - 10 years... the need to keep it (at least for me) has slipped away.
> 
> I know it's an anathema to some people and I don't blame them for not sharing my thoughts on the matter in the slightest... but for me... at a certain point what was once a 'memento' turns into 'junk'.  The memory is important.  The object no longer is.



I see your angle, I sort of get it.

Maybe I am just weird though, but I do occasionally go flipping through my old books from time to time. If nothing else, it reminds me of why I respect the OSR movement, but have ZERO interest in joining it. 

Cheers to memories of games (long) past.


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## Mapache (Jan 20, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> I know it's an anathema to some people and I don't blame them for not sharing my thoughts on the matter in the slightest... but for me... at a certain point what was once a 'memento' turns into 'junk'.  The memory is important.  The object no longer is.




For me, it has nothing to do with what you wanted to hang on to or not.  It's that destroying _books_ is morally repugnant to me.


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## shadzar (Jan 20, 2011)

Mapache said:


> For me, it has nothing to do with what you wanted to hang on to or not.  It's that destroying _books_ is morally repugnant to me.



Not just books for me, but anybody being wasteful with something that still has a use but is thrown away, like books, children's clothes that could be donated to someone else, etc.

Sell em all to someone for $1 total if you dont feel like giving them away, but don't be wasteful.


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## chernann (Jan 21, 2011)

Now, D&D pre-paints going out the door, that's pretty surprising.  I can understand why 4th edition was made miniature centric, kind of a table top combat oriented MMO rules focussed on balance.  I'm guessing 3.5 sales hit a plateau and being part of publicly listed entity meant generating new growth, especially when compared against the success of Magic.  If they released 4th edition in the vein of 3.5, they wouldn't see any growth because to play an RPG you basically need 3 rulebooks shared amongst 4 to 6 people ($100 / 6 = $16+ per participant for the product lifecycle, not so hot). So forcing miniatures play makes sense because then accessories would be required.

Since TSR's revenues were about $30 million at their peak, it probably wouldn't be unreasonable to assume that Hasbro would expect that as a base to grow from.  The only other model to emulate would be GW, which has revenues of $150 million mostly due to miniatures sales (with some royalties from game deals).  They picked miniature gaming as a way to generate growth while still keeping their RPG identity.

This is all sensible from Habro's point of view, a public company needs to constantly demonstrate growth to justify a large multiple in their share price.  Unfortunately, it's not so great if you're a subsidiary in a market with demonstrated saturation and difficulty in opening new territorial markets (China, Japan etc may be good opportunities but with no history of table top gaming, let alone RPGs, a tough sell).  In the end, the decision was made to give it a go with miniatures apparently.

What's super surprising is that WotC has abandoned this strategy completely. Unfortunately, WotC can't go back to non-miniature style play since Paizo has gobbled up the market they left behind with Pathfinder.  I suspect D&D may undergo a few more strange mutations as Hasbro insists on growth before either pigeon holing it as a stable product (unlikely, since it will require an R&D budget to compete with Pathfinder and other RPGs; Monopoly doesn't require R&D and sells just fine), or being jettisoned and sold off.  

This isn't that far fetched, it isn't simply about whether a subsidiary or division is profitable, but how profitable it is compared to other parts of the same company; a $6 billion company obviously has a lot of talented management.  An hour spent managing D&D is an hour not spent on something that could be far more profitable. Any executive tasked to look after D&D will look like an underperforming tool compared to whoever is looking after Star Wars or Transformers toys, or even Magic the Gathering. Niche subdivisions in huge mass market companies tend not to last very long (Apple server division just got killed by Apple, for instance.  And why not? If you can't make iPads and iPhones fast enough, being told to manage the XServe division must seem like career hell).


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 21, 2011)

Mapache said:


> For me, it has nothing to do with what you wanted to hang on to or not.  It's that destroying _books_ is morally repugnant to me.





> Not just books for me, but anybody being wasteful with something that still has a use but is thrown away, like books, children's clothes that could be donated to someone else, etc.
> 
> Sell em all to someone for $1 total if you dont feel like giving them away, but don't be wasteful.




Believe me, I understand your ways of thinking and I'm right there with you much of the time.  A large changeover of my clothes usually means I bag up my old stuff and then drop them off at the Goodwill bins down the street... now that there's a used book store a mile or so away I'll dump off my old paperbacks when I clear my shelves... and I set out my recycling bins each Wednesday night like a good doobie.

But I also know that I'm not so angelic a person that I also won't go _way_ out of my way to see that everything I own that I don't use anymore is going to "go to a new home".  Like most of us... there are just certain inconveniences that I just won't go much further on.   Because at some point... there will be _always_ be something that you _could_ be thriftful on, but you end up not being.  How many people waste food?  All the time.  Go to a restaurant and not bother bringing home a doggie bag... or leave leftovers in the fridge, not eat them, and then throw them out when they go bad.  How much trash do we throw out that we _could_ have put in the recycle bin if we took a couple extra seconds to remove the plastic from the cardboard for instance?  Do you take old socks and wash them, cut them up, and use them as rags when you're cleaning the house?  There are thousands of things (which the Green movement has highlighted on quite extensively) we could do that wouldn't be wasteful.  The question is... how far are we willing to go?

Everyone will have that one thing that they just couldn't imagine just "tossing out".  I realize it, which is why I do not take any offense to anything any of you have said.  Because in many ways you are absolutely right... I _could_ have done more if I hadn't wanted to be inconvenienced at the time.  And that's just something I'll have to accept.


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## Solvarn (Jan 21, 2011)

*D&D Stuff*



Aegeri said:


> It does seem very odd that Wizards have been so supportive of FLGS by giving them books early, the in store encounters programs and such. Then they turn around and gut their physical book release schedule. I still want to believe Wizards is planning something and this isn't as bad as it looks like, but that is far too optimistic for me.




Proper planning and business analysis would have led to them not being in where they are in the first place.

I think at this point they are flailing and have some serious management issues.

The great thing about America is that if people are willing to spend money there will be someone ready to make something for them to spend their hard earned dollars on. That's the dream anyway. I'm sure that even if WotC can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again, there will be gaming products for us to buy and the sun will continue to rise and set.

I think they're on to something with this electronic tabletop, there is definitely an untapped market that will use that product. I just don't know that anyone at WotC has heard the term "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 21, 2011)

But where are they?

That's the thing that no one can ever answer sufficiently.  All that gets generated is that WotC has cancelled some books, and thus the only _possible_ explanation is that the company is failing and are being mismanaged.

Can you think of NO OTHER possible explanation as to why WotC decided to stop production on these three hardcover books?  Now I certainly can... as can quite a number of other people on all these threads who have given any number of possible reasons why it has happened.  Some of them are reasons that imply WotC might be struggling, but some are reasons that imply that WotC has come into more knowledge about how their company is doing business and is "following the money" and doing the same, if not better.  But the fact is... we don't know who is right.


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## ShadesOfGrey (Jan 22, 2011)

Solvarn said:


> I think they're on to something with this electronic tabletop, there is definitely an untapped market that will use that product. I just don't know that anyone at WotC has heard the term "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater."




Untapped? Y'know, if WotC is putting all their D&D eggs in the VTT basket, somebody needs to tell whoever planned it out the reality of the market.

Right now, there are dozens of good commercial VTT options, and even more free (as in free beer) programs to do the VTT thing.
It might have been viable waaaay back when they started talking about it and making promises, but while wizards was tardy to deliver, others stepped in to fulfill so to speak.

The only thing that might give wizards an edge in this is being designed around the system (4e) and maybe good integration with DDI and official 'content'. 

If they hope to sell DDI subscriptions with this, people on DDI are already subbed and the VTT wont change that, 
and I doubt that people using free VTT software or commercial ones they already pay for are going to jump at the oppurtunity to get DDI if they havent already.

Maybe people who dont have DDI but would if it had VTT? I'm not sure, but I think for the people where that is such a big selling point, they already have some kind of system in place.

I have no idea what the strategy here is, and how they want to make good their investment, what they expect out of it. 

But at least from where I am standing, it seems ill advised to invest money to service a market that is already been serviced more cheaply and probably better too. 

I dont think Wotc develloping a VTT is a bad thing, but I sure as hell hope it's not their main strategy, because another setback there will put D&D further someplace where no-one wants it to be.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jan 22, 2011)

Well, the one advantage the WotC virtual table will probably have over other systems is that they will be directly connected to the various online D&D databases (character, monster, rule compendium etc.)  If/when they design an encounter builder, trap builder, and terrain builder... those will also make the WotC VTT more enticing to a lot of people.  Because there is something to be said for the time saving that comes from being able to plug directly into the D&D databanks.

Sure, many people who are using free VTTs might not switch over... but we do have to admit that the branding of an official "D&D VTT" will bringing in more people based on company affiliation alone.  People _want_ to play 'Dungeons & Dragons'... even if other games or equipment might actually be better per se.  So that's an advantage that Wizards has that makes what they are doing an investment they see as worthwhile to make.


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## ShadesOfGrey (Jan 22, 2011)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Well, the one advantage the WotC virtual table will probably have over other systems is that they will be directly connected to the various online D&D databases (character, monster, rule compendium etc.)  If/when they design an encounter builder, trap builder, and terrain builder... those will also make the WotC VTT more enticing to a lot of people.  Because there is something to be said for the time saving that comes from being able to plug directly into the D&D databanks.
> 
> Sure, many people who are using free VTTs might not switch over... but we do have to admit that the branding of an official "D&D VTT" will bringing in more people based on company affiliation alone.  People _want_ to play 'Dungeons & Dragons'... even if other games or equipment might actually be better per se.  So that's an advantage that Wizards has that makes what they are doing an investment they see as worthwhile to make.




That makes sense I guess. But if that is their line of thinking, it just seems like a longshot. It just seems pretty risky with not a lot of prospect if it's succsesfull, maybe the online stuff, boardgames, boosterpacks etc is just trying a lot of stuff out and hope something sticks *now* while the D&D team is still staffed & funded? It wouldnt suprise me if the team expects very bad weather with no easy way out, and needs something they can show the execs if they ever need to justify their existence.

A bunch of subscribers seems a lot more 'hard-data' to show then a line of books that may or not may be published sometime, which may or may not sell a certain amount based on previous books that may or may not have sold well previously.


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