# H2 Thunderspire Labyrinth - I Have It!



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

This evening, I picked up my copy of _Thunderspire Labyrinth_ from a national retailer (btw, there was one more copy available at the store on the west side of town).  I haven't had a chance to read more than a few pages, but I would be happy to answer anyone's questions as best I can.

The adventure resembles _Keep on the Shadowfell_ in format, consisting of two glossy, softcover booklets (book one is 31 pages and book two is 64 pages), a double-sided battlemap depicting key locations in the adventure, all bound by a cardstock folder.  Booklet one contains an overview of the adventure, its locale, and key NPCs.  It also contains the adventure hooks, some introductory encounters, supplementary art (there seems to be a lot more art in this adventure than in H1), and new monsters (duergar, bronze warder, enigma of Vecna, norker, and phalagar.  Booklet two contains the bulk of the actual adventure.

Oh, the paperstock used in the adventure is much better than in H1, though the cover is still too flimsy for my tastes and still has a tendency to smudge if your fingers are oily.  WoTC is almost there, they just need to change up the covers.

Again, if anyone has any questions I can answer, feel free to ask.


----------



## StickPerson (Jul 10, 2008)

A list of monsters and their max numbers would be cool.  It would be nice to determine which and how many mini's to work on obtaining.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

StickPerson said:


> A list of monsters and their max numbers would be cool.  It would be nice to determine which and how many mini's to work on obtaining.




http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234864


----------



## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

I would be interested to know what the cardboard maps are. (Buying the adventure for reusable map cardstock is very tempting, if they are useful). 

Also, an idea of what Enigmas of Vecna and Phalanger are would be nice. 

Any cool traps?

What makes a Bonecrusher Skeleton a, er, bone crusher? 

Looking at the minis list, there doesn't appear to be any big bads. Or minotaur, for that matter (despite the Baphomet minotaur temple).


----------



## frankthedm (Jul 10, 2008)

COuld I get descriptions for these critters? >>>>>



Spoiler



Enigma of Vecna X 2
Bonecrusher Skeleton
Phalagar
Arbalester


<<<<< 







StickPerson said:


> A list of monsters and their max numbers would be cool.  It would be nice to determine which and how many mini's to work on obtaining.





			
				zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> Someone else posted the list to another thread. I'd love to give credit, but I copied the list and didn't note who posted it. If someone knows, please post credit for the hero that posted the list previously:[sblock]Hobgoblin Warcaster
> Hobgoblin Soldiers X 4
> Norker Slinger X 2 (ettercap?)
> Norker Bezerker
> ...




One counter is missing, several are guesses:[sblock=H2 Counter sheets, EXTREAM SPOILER]
img79.imageshack.us/img79/430/lightningrodmaze1qr8.png





img79.imageshack.us/img79/1518/lightningrodmaze2ju3.png



[/sblock]


----------



## Dr Midnight (Jul 10, 2008)

Just one double-sided battlemap??


----------



## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

Looking at the minis list, there doesn't appear to be any big bads. Or minotaur, for that matter (despite the Baphomet minotaur temple).


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Looking at the minis list, there doesn't appear to be any big bads. Or minotaur, for that matter (despite the Baphomet minotaur temple).




There's definitely a BBEG he's SPOILER 



Spoiler



a renegade human mage and worshiper of Vecna; he's statted as an 11th level elite artillery


 SPOILER ends.  You are correct, there are no minotaurs, but why that is is explained in the adventure.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

Dr Midnight said:


> Just one double-sided battlemap??




Yep, but its eight panels.  It depicts three of the four key encounter areas.  I quite like it, except for the fact that each area is prominently labeled with its name.


----------



## frankthedm (Jul 10, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> There's definitely a BBEG he's SPOILER
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And you can always have a bunch of minotaurs be moo-ving back in if the party finds the current occupants lacking in challenge. Or if the party gets in over thier heads, having some bovine back up might not even seem like bull


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

New Monsters:

Arbalester (SPOILER):  



Spoiler



This is a new form of homumculus; its basically a clockwork crossbow atop a pair of articulated legs - Level 4 Artiller



Bonecrusher Skeleton (SPOILER):  



Spoiler



Nothing too fancy here, basically just a Large-sized skeleton - Level 7 Soldier



Enigma of Vecna (SPOILER):  



Spoiler



I love these guys, they are the shells of petitioners who failed Vecna in some way; at first they look like non-descript mages and they have a really cool power called Memory Ripper which causes the target to lose their ability to use encounter attack powers, daily attack powers, or utility powers, in addition to the psychic damage.  When they are bloodied, their gain claws and their skin falls off, creating a horrific, feral bezerker - Level 6 Controller



Phalagar (SPOILER):  



Spoiler



The phalagar is a tentacled beast that lurks in the Underdark, ambushing prey - Level 6 Elite Controller



Also, I found the new treatment of the duergar and norkers to be really cool.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

Arbalester can be found in the Treasure of Talon Pass adventure.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Any cool traps?




There are lots of traps, but I haven't had a chance to read them yet.


----------



## frankthedm (Jul 10, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> New Monsters:



Thanks for the info. Will change the sprite sheet soon


----------



## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

[sblock]The memory ripper power sounds _really_ frustrating. Is it a 'save ends' power?[/sblock]


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

Rechan said:


> [sblock]The memory ripper power sounds _really_ frustrating. Is it a 'save ends' power?[/sblock]




Yes, and it has an aftereffect 



Spoiler



, as afterwards, the target is dazed until the end of its next turn


.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

That's better.

[sblock]Funnily enough, I don't expect the 'Cancel Daily Powers' to be useful, since players likely aren't going to use their dailies outside of a "boss fight" or a really tough fight. I wonder if the Enigma can choose.

Regardless, it sounds like a cool monster.[/sblock]


----------



## Rakor (Jul 10, 2008)

Any suggestions for adding stuff to Shadowfell so as to link them up? Is there anything to draw you from one to the next?


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

Rechan said:


> That's better.
> 
> [sblock]Funnily enough, I don't expect the 'Cancel Daily Powers' to be useful, since players likely aren't going to use their dailies outside of a "boss fight" or a really tough fight. I wonder if the Enigma can choose.
> 
> Regardless, it sounds like a cool monster.[/sblock]





[sblock]Its all of the affected characters encounter, daily, and utility powers; they can only use at-will attacks while under its influence, so the enigma does not have to change.[/sblock].


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

Rakor said:


> Any suggestions for adding stuff to Shadowfell so as to link them up? Is there anything to draw you from one to the next?




Yes, several of the hooks pre-suppose that you played H1 (though they talk about modifications you can make if that doesn't fit your purposes) and the introduction mentions that their are connections to H1 and H3 throughout the text, but I haven't read far enough to find them yet.


----------



## MerricB (Jul 10, 2008)

Thanks muchly for the information! I'm probably a couple of months away from actually running the adventure, but it's great to hear about it now. 

Cheers!


----------



## Rechan (Jul 10, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> [sblock]Its all of the affected characters encounter, daily, and utility powers; they can only use at-will attacks while under its influence, so the enigma does not have to change.[/sblock].




That actually bothers me. 

I like the bloodied state thing, but I wonder how effective it is at being a melee combatant when it's a controller monster.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

Rechan said:


> That actually bothers me.
> 
> I like the bloodied state thing, but I wonder how effective it is at being a melee combatant when it's a controller monster.




Its attack becomes +9 vs AC for 2d8+5 damage.  Also, when it it becomes a melee combatant, it gains SPOILER 



Spoiler



regeneration 5.


.  I'd say its an OK melee combatant, since this attack is equivalent to what a 6th level brute would dish out.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

BTW, I finished reading the first booklet and I really like it.  Its basically an overview of the Labyrinth, especially the more civilized section known as the Seven-Pillared Hall.  Its full of interesting locales, NPCs, and potential quests; even the wandering monster chart involves backstory!  Oh, and the taproom is run by a half-orc.


----------



## frankthedm (Jul 10, 2008)

And thanks again, the info let me update the sprite sheet! [sblock=Updated Second sheet of H2 sprite counters]
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1196/lightningrodmaze2km6.png img398.imageshack.us/img398/1196/lightningrodmaze2km6.png




[/sblock]


----------



## Boarstorm (Jul 10, 2008)

Wow, thanks for the Sprites, Frank.

Granted, it's not a free collection of Pozas' counters, but it's damned sure going to come in handy at my table.

And Shroomy, thanks for the info.  The more I hear about this adventure, the more I want to give it a spin.


----------



## frankthedm (Jul 10, 2008)

Boarstorm said:


> Wow, thanks for the Sprites, Frank.
> 
> Granted, it's not a free collection of Pozas' counters, but it's damned sure going to come in handy at my table.



Ever follow the link in my sig? 
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225315


----------



## SteveC (Jul 10, 2008)

Hmmn, must stop at that "West Side Retailer" to see what's up. What are your initial impressions of the adventure? I think that the Keep on the Shadowfell felt rushed in places ... does this adventure feel properly "complete" for lack of a better word?

Thanks for letting us know about this ...

--Steve


----------



## Boarstorm (Jul 10, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> Ever follow the link in my sig?
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=225315




I... *hangs head*

No, sir.

But I will now, I promise!

*is quiet for a moment*

Holy crap, I'm going to need a new pair of scissors.


----------



## D'karr (Jul 10, 2008)

I posted this on the original thread at http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=234265 but I'll post it here since I'm still running H1 for my group and the hooks I used were better for them simply because I had more control of them.

[sblock=Plot Hooks]
I twisted H1, a lot, to suit my tastes. Kalarel was female and Ninaran, the ranger was male. I don't know if I spelled those names correctly so forgive me if I butchered them. It made for some fun at the game table, specially because I started that adventure with the PCs helping out a caravan, in which Kalarel was a passenger. This was an unrelated side-trek as part of the setup for KotS.

I don't like the idea of the Bloodreavers being the pervasive enemy between the two adventures. I mean, it is a good link but in my opinion it does not do enough to link the two adventures. So In my game I'm planning on having Paldemar be Kalarel's former mentor. After Kalarel started rising in power he saw her more as a threat and decided to get rid of her. He sent her to Shadowfell Keep, knowing full well that the ritual she would try to perform would probably kill her.

I'll have to make some other changes to both adventures but I like that "hook" better.

In H2 Paldemar is a follower of Vecna, though this is a secret. My reasoning for him sending Kalarel to Shadowfell has to do with being able to siphon power from the rift in Shadowfell and using it for his "infernal machine", with which he plans to dispose of the Mages of Saruun. Of course this is a blatant lie but if Kalarel succeeds he'll just kill her at the same time that he disposes of the other mages and if she fails, then no harm done. This also feeds into the hooks for the follow-on adventure H3yramid of Shadows.[/sblock]


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2008)

SteveC said:


> Hmmn, must stop at that "West Side Retailer" to see what's up. What are your initial impressions of the adventure? I think that the Keep on the Shadowfell felt rushed in places ... does this adventure feel properly "complete" for lack of a better word?
> 
> Thanks for letting us know about this ...
> 
> --Steve




Having read the first booklet and half of the second, I feel that it is more of a "complete" adventure.  BTW, its the west-side retailer near Hilldale Mall.


----------



## grantham (Jul 10, 2008)

Do any of the encounters seem like prime TPK opportunity?  I'm thinking Party Level +5 or more.  After people's experiences with H1, my party has been debating whether 4e is more TPK-heavy than previous editions.


----------



## SteveC (Jul 10, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Having read the first booklet and half of the second, I feel that it is more of a "complete" adventure.  BTW, its the west-side retailer near Hilldale Mall.




Thanks for the info...we will have to see if they still have one left.


----------



## Ktulu (Jul 10, 2008)

All I want to know is what battlemaps are in the mod?  I don't need a module, but if the maps are new I'll definitely buy it.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 11, 2008)

grantham said:


> Do any of the encounters seem like prime TPK opportunity?  I'm thinking Party Level +5 or more.  After people's experiences with H1, my party has been debating whether 4e is more TPK-heavy than previous editions.




I've only read half of the 2nd booklet, but I did just skim through it to answer your question.  The majority of the encounters fall between levels 4-6, but there are a handful of encounters of levels 7-9.  The final encounter is level 10.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 11, 2008)

Ktulu said:


> All I want to know is what battlemaps are in the mod?  I don't need a module, but if the maps are new I'll definitely buy it.




There's a single, 8-panel, full-color, double-sided map that depicts three key encounter areas in the adventure.  I'm not sure if its a reproduction from an earlier product or not.


----------



## mach1.9pants (Jul 11, 2008)

I know what Norks are, and I am a real big fan.

What are Norkers? I have all sorts of images running through my head, almost certainly wrong and mostly illegal

EDIT: Oh these, http://www.geocities.com/royyaniv2000/norker.html , damn no where near as interesting as I was hoping for

Well I will have to think of a new name for them, Norkers is just a recipe for nothing but boob jokes for the entire evening!


----------



## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> There's a single, 8-panel, full-color, double-sided map that depicts three key encounter areas in the adventure.  I'm not sure if its a reproduction from an earlier product or not.



But can you tell us what the key areas ARE?  Spoilertags welcome.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 11, 2008)

Rechan said:


> But can you tell us what the key areas ARE?  Spoilertags welcome.




Sure.  Extensive Spoilers Below:

[sblock]The adventure takes place in the abandoned minotaur city of Saruun Khel, which lies in the Underdark underneath Thunderspire Mountain.  The upper reaches of the Labyrinth, as Saruun Khel is also known, is under the control of a bunch of mages called the Mages of Saruun.  They've established a trading outpost in an area known as the Seven Pillared Hall; the description of the Seven Pillared Hall, which serves as the PCs homebase during the adventure, takes up most of Adventure Book One.  There are four encounter areas:  the Chamber of Eyes, an abandoned minotaur shrine once devoted to Torog; it is now the home of the Bloodreaver Slavers.  Horned Hold is a former minotaur fortress that now serves as a base of operations for a duergar clan.  The Well of Demons was once a monastery devoted to Baphomet (btw, their is a backstory describing how the minotaurs turned-away from Baphomet and embraced Torog; the demonlord then cursed his former worshippers, which caused the fall of Saruun Khel); a tribe of gnolls is know searching the area for magical items sought by the BBEG.  The final encounter area is the Tower of Mysteries, which is a temple dedicated to Vecna; it is controlled by the BBEG, Paldemar, a renegade Mage of Saruun.

The poster map depicts key areas of the Chamber of Eyes, the Horned Hold, and the Well of Demons, basically the areas where the finale of each encounter area will likely occur (each area has a mini-BBEG).  The Chamber of Eyes and the Horned Hold share one-side of the map, while the entire other side is devoted to the Well of Demons (actually a central area called the Proving Grounds).  The Tower of Mysteries is a three level building and is fairly non-descript.  I'm sure it would be easy to build with standard Dungeon Tiles. [/sblock]


----------



## Rechan (Jul 11, 2008)

A billion thanks, Shroomy.


----------



## Hawke (Jul 11, 2008)

Any chance for some pictures of the maps? I don't need details so I'm not looking to throw rocks at a bee's nest named WotC... just want to see what sort of maps I'm getting into before purchase... just some big overall picture would be nice.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 11, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Any chance for some pictures of the maps? I don't need details so I'm not looking to throw rocks at a bee's nest named WotC... just want to see what sort of maps I'm getting into before purchase... just some big overall picture would be nice.




Sorry, I don't have any method to do that right now.  BTW, I said this earlier, but there is a lot more art in this adventure than in H1.  There are even several pages of full-color paintings of various scenes and villains that the PCs will encounter.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Jul 11, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> There are even several pages of full-color paintings of various scenes and villains that the PCs will encounter.



But do they come in a separate booklet, with a little circle in the upper right/left of each picture that has a number in it, and you hold your thumb over the number so the players don't derive any information from it?

Uh, sorry, flashback to the S-modules. *sheepish grin*


----------



## Classic Villany (Jul 11, 2008)

What kind of abilities do the various types of Duergar in the adventure have?


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 12, 2008)

My local chain bookstore seems to have placed H2 on shelves already too.

And, I seem to have bought one!


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 12, 2008)

Classic Villany said:


> What kind of abilities do the various types of Duergar in the adventure have?




There's a spellcaster, there's a brute that grows large-sized, and most of them throw bits of their beard at you.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 12, 2008)

Grimstaff said:


> and most of them throw bits of their beard at you.



Tell me that's a joke.


----------



## frankthedm (Jul 12, 2008)

Rechan said:


> Tell me that's a joke.



 After that comment, i'd assume The dark dwarves are far realm tainted and their beards are living masses of tendrils. "Tear a hunk off, toss it at someone and it entangles the foe" sort of deal.


----------



## Gears (Jul 12, 2008)

frankthedm said:


> After that comment, i'd assume The dark dwarves are far realm tainted and their beards are living masses of tendrils. "Tear a hunk off, toss it at someone and it entangles the foe" sort of deal.





Close...they are described as having spines that grow amidst their beards.  They can pull and throw these things at enemies to poison them.  The Duergar have a more overt devil-worship vibe going on now.  One of the sample encounter groups for them has a Spined Devil in it, frex.  Maybe spiny/spiky little devil doods is their new aesthetic schtick?

I kinda like your 'tendril beard' idea even better than the above now that I think about it....


----------



## Zulithe (Jul 12, 2008)

Found H2, character sheets and the giant-themed tileset today. I only bought H2, though. If you want it, go look for it! Chains are a good starting point.


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 12, 2008)

Zulithe said:


> If you want it, go look for it! Chains are a good starting point.




Especially the "edgy" ones. They apparently don't know where to draw the "line" with release dates, so you don't have to cross from one territory to another to get H2. (ok, I'll stop now  )


----------



## Hawke (Jul 12, 2008)

Anyone got a picture of the maps yet?


----------



## Rechan (Jul 13, 2008)

You know, there's something about the writeup of this that bothers me. 

[sblock]Aside from the Vecna guys, it sounds like just "Go wipe out the humanoids holed up over here." KotS was similar; aside from the very last leg, it's just "Kill the humanoid scum." There's little variation and not much "plot".[/sblock]


----------



## D'karr (Jul 13, 2008)

Rechan said:


> You know, there's something about the writeup of this that bothers me.
> 
> [sblock]Aside from the Vecna guys, it sounds like just "Go wipe out the humanoids holed up over here." KotS was similar; aside from the very last leg, it's just "Kill the humanoid scum." There's little variation and not much "plot".[/sblock]




I've read through both adventures and I don't see it.

[sblock]There are quite a bit of "open-ended" ways to run both adventures.  If you have not started running H1, now is the time to find different plot hooks to link both adventures.

If as a DM you want to make it a kill the humanoids adventure it will be.  I can see several ways to play this one, including not killing the humanoids.  I can even see several places where the humanoids might find it advantageous to hire the party.

Plot would actually ruin the open-endedness of H2.  H1, doesn't have a plot either and my group took some very weird twists on that one instead of making it a kill the humanoids adventure.  I prefer adventures to give me a solid foundation and leave the plot to me or if there is a plot I want a very loose one.[/sblock]


----------



## FourthBear (Jul 13, 2008)

What potentially worries me is a repeat of something in KotS: the maps supplied depict nice, large open areas for encounters.  Exactly the kind of maps that are pretty easy to create on a whiteboard.  They don't do any of the areas with narrow corridors, small rooms and restriction points: the very maps that are the most irritating to draw for the DM.  C'mon, WotC, we don't need maps of the large open areas, we need for all those encounters in multiple rooms off of corridors, around corners and in labyrinths.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 13, 2008)

[sblock]







> If as a DM you want to make it a kill the humanoids adventure it will be. I can see several ways to play this one, including not killing the humanoids. I can even see several places where the humanoids might find it advantageous to hire the party.




Really? WHere? The kobolds have been made overconfident by Irontooth. The goblins aren't ever going to ration out with the PCs, because the hobgoblins are the ones leading them, and the only time they meet the GOBLIN leader, they're in there to kill him. Same with the Hobbos. Who is there to bargain with?

As for modules providing plot, I'm afraid we're at the opposite ends. I prefer it that way. I gesture to Paizo for an example of the fantastic end of the spectrum. [/sblock]


----------



## Jhaelen (Jul 13, 2008)

FourthBear said:


> What potentially worries me is a repeat of something in KotS: the maps supplied depict nice, large open areas for encounters.  Exactly the kind of maps that are pretty easy to create on a whiteboard.  They don't do any of the areas with narrow corridors, small rooms and restriction points: the very maps that are the most irritating to draw for the DM.  C'mon, WotC, we don't need maps of the large open areas, we need for all those encounters in multiple rooms off of corridors, around corners and in labyrinths.



Looks, like I'm in complete disagreement.
The poster maps I am looking for are the ones that are useful for many different encounters. 'The King's Road' is a prime example.

Maps of rooms and corridors don't have that utility unless they can be rearranged, which is why Dungeon Tiles are much more useful for this kind of thing.

Plus, in 4E open areas are pretty much required for 'fun' combat encounters. Without room for movement, combats become static exchanges of blows. So, if a combat area is made up of corridors and rooms, the corridors should be wide, the rooms big, and there should be lots of secondary and thirdary (is that a word?) routes to other parts of the map.


----------



## silentounce (Jul 13, 2008)

Jhaelen said:


> thirdary (is that a word?)




_Tertiary_, pronounced like tersh-eee-air-eee, followed by quaternary, quinary, senary, septenary, octonary, nonary, and denary.

I hope you never need more than that.


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 13, 2008)

Rechan said:


> You know, there's something about the writeup of this that bothers me.
> 
> [sblock]Aside from the Vecna guys, it sounds like just "Go wipe out the humanoids holed up over here." KotS was similar; aside from the very last leg, it's just "Kill the humanoid scum." There's little variation and not much "plot".[/sblock]




Actually there are a few more plot elements, and some NPCs that can actually impact the adventure itself, rather than cheer from the sidelines.

From what I've read so far, H2 is a very nice site-based adventure (a-la-Forgotten City) and a step up in quality from KotS.


----------



## D'karr (Jul 13, 2008)

Rechan said:


> As for modules providing plot, I'm afraid we're at the opposite ends. I prefer it that way. I gesture to Paizo for an example of the fantastic end of the spectrum.




I agree that Paizo has some pretty good adventures with *lots* of plot.  I've run both Age of Worms as well as Rise of the Runelords.  But too much plot and it becomes a railroad.  How long did your characters actually spend in Sandpoint, beyond the necessary for the adventure?  None, because the plot advances at a breakneck speed and they can either follow the plot, or be left behind.  With Age of Worms the outcome is the same, follow the Plot or the world ends.

Me, I like players to have choice and their actions to actually have consequence.  A big overarching plot usually hampers that, or requires too much work from the DM to alter.  Any choice the players make that does not fit in that plot, can suddenly bring the adventure to a screeching halt.  Plot does not have to be a rigid script.  That is why I like what we are given in both H1 and H2, which can be "easily" tailored by the DM.

Obviously our tastes are different on this.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 13, 2008)

Grimstaff said:


> Especially the "edgy" ones. They apparently don't know where to draw the "line" with release dates, so you don't have to cross from one territory to another to get H2. (ok, I'll stop now  )




I'm sure after the decisive action WoTC took against Buy.com and Amazon that you're completely mistaken.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 13, 2008)

I finished reading this adventure this afternoon, and other than an anemic conclusion section (one paragraph WoTC, why bother?), I have to say that I really liked this adventure.  Just a couple of comments:

Rechan, yes, there are a lot of cool traps in the adventure.  Disabling some of the traps involve mini-skill challenges that utilize a skill other than Thievery, which I thought was a nice touch.

On the subject of skill challenges, the adventure uses a lot of them, in various levels and complexities, often with interesting results from success or failure.  I particularly liked the two challenges that reward for partial success based on the number of successes accrued.

By the way, guess who shows up in the adventure to administer one of those skill challenges, SPOILER 



Spoiler



Vecna, that's who!  Well, its actually a manifestation of the god of secrets himself, but that's none too shabby for a heroic tier adventure!


  END SPOILER

The later sections of the adventure gave me a nice nostalgic vibe with the fiendish traps and weird hazards with seemingly random magical effects.  I wonder if other readers will get the same impression.

I will definitely be using this adventure in my upcoming 4e campaign.  I hope that H3 is as good if not better.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 13, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> I'm sure after the decisive action WoTC took against Buy.com and Amazon that you're completely mistaken.




I didn't hear what they did. What did they do?


----------



## Rechan (Jul 13, 2008)

> Rechan, yes, there are a lot of cool traps in the adventure. Disabling some of the traps involve mini-skill challenges that utilize a skill other than Thievery, which I thought was a nice touch.



Excellent! Thank you.


----------



## w_earle_wheeler (Jul 14, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I didn't hear what they did. What did they do?




I think that's the point


----------



## Zaister (Jul 14, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> The adventure resembles _Keep on the Shadowfell_ in format, consisting of two glossy, softcover booklets (book one is 31 pages and book two is 64 pages), a double-sided battlemap depicting key locations in the adventure, all bound by a cardstock folder.




Does this mean it uses the same weird folder that is only half as wide at the spine as it is thick? 

I wonder why they even made it that way.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 14, 2008)

Zaister said:


> Does this mean it uses the same weird folder that is only half as wide at the spine as it is thick?
> 
> I wonder why they even made it that way.




Yes, it is the same style as H1.


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 14, 2008)

So does H2 have any meat grinder encounter like H1 does?


----------



## Zaister (Jul 14, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Yes, it is the same style as H1.




Who comes up with a design like that? And why? That must look horrible on the shelf...


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 14, 2008)

Zaister said:


> Who comes up with a design like that? And why? That must look horrible on the shelf...




Yeah, it kinda does.


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 14, 2008)

Ashrem Bayle said:


> So does H2 have any meat grinder encounter like H1 does?




While I havn't read too far into the dungeon itself, it looks like (spoilers) players who act up in the trading area (pillar of seven halls) are in for a rough time from the resident wizards and their friends.

That said, a cursory glance makes me think anything involving gnolls is going to be tough too.


----------



## carmachu (Jul 14, 2008)

Better or worse than H1 Keep of the Shadowfell?


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 14, 2008)

carmachu said:


> Better or worse than H1 Keep of the Shadowfell?




Much, much better.


----------



## Echoes (Jul 15, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Much, much better.




Just wanted to chime in and say that, after my Amazon package arrived this afternoon and I have read the adventure cover to cover, I absolutely agree.

Of course, I'll still need to work a bit at adding some roleplaying elements to portions of the module, but not nearly as much as I had to for Keep on the Shadowfell.  Also, from a tactical standpoint, this adventure will be a lot more fun for a devious DM to run, since the encounters are well-designed (as opposed to the repeated "x minions, y skirmishers, and 1 brute") type encounters in KotS.  

And to answer a previously-posed question, _yes_, there are definitely some rough encounters akin to the Irontooth one in Thunderspire Labyrinth, most notably [sblock] one with a duergar paladin, another with a green dragon and a number of nasty traps that begins with the party separated, and the final encounter, which pits just a nasty set-up of enemies (including two elites) against the PCs. [/sblock]

All in all, I'm much much happier with H2 than I was with H1.  I hope the concluding heroic-tier adventure follows suit.


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 15, 2008)

Echoes, what kind of role-playing encounters do you think are lacking in the adventure.  My only complaint on that front (and it is kind of a minor one) is that none of the mini-BBEGs or the BBEG will really converse with the PCs.  Still, I think that all of the role-playing encounters and little details more than compensate.  Rich Baker does not disappoint.


----------



## Echoes (Jul 15, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Echoes, what kind of role-playing encounters do you think are lacking in the adventure.  My only complaint on that front (and it is kind of a minor one) is that none of the mini-BBEGs or the BBEG will really converse with the PCs.  Still, I think that all of the role-playing encounters and little details more than compensate.  Rich Baker does not disappoint.




What you brought up was a pet peeve of mine from KotS, and that it reoccurs in Thunderspire Labyrinth kind of irked me.

But I'm also talking about the fact that, though TL is less linear than KotS, it's still something of a point A -> point B -> point C adventure.  I'd prefer that the plot is brought out more via some sort of roleplayed encounter rather than "at the end of A, the PCs find a letter written by the leader of B, and at the end of B, they find a scroll given to the leader of B by the leader of C."

I'm just going to try to spruce things up a little by interweaving the NPCs/plots a bit more.  I've got a good hook already in that I made it such that my PCs in KotS are already trying to find several villagers from Winterhaven that were captured by kobolds/sold to the Bloodreavers, so they will ultimately end up with both the duergar and gnolls in TL, but now I'm rambling.

Anyway, I definitely agree that the plot and NPCs/details of TL are of a much higher quality than KotS.   There are a lot of little flavorful bits that I am already turning into new plot twists...


----------



## Lanefan (Jul 15, 2008)

FourthBear said:


> What potentially worries me is a repeat of something in KotS: the maps supplied depict nice, large open areas for encounters.  Exactly the kind of maps that are pretty easy to create on a whiteboard.  They don't do any of the areas with narrow corridors, small rooms and restriction points: the very maps that are the most irritating to draw for the DM.  C'mon, WotC, we don't need maps of the large open areas, we need for all those encounters in multiple rooms off of corridors, around corners and in labyrinths.



We-ell, from what I can tell 4e seems to want to specialize in big open-area set-piece encounters...which is good.  There's one in KotS, for example, with some Goblins in a mine...some of the area is 10' below the rest, and the map shows where the ladders etc. are...and that'd be a headache to try and draw at all accurately on a chalkboard.

A couple of quick questions, for those as have seen H2:

1. The actual dungeon part - bigger, smaller, or about the same as KotS?

2. Can it be run independently of KotS, similar to how Forge of Fury could be run independently of Sunless citadel; or are they so much intertwined one pretty much has to follow the other?

3. Any good landscape or scenic art in it, such as was in Worlds and Monsters?

Lanefan


----------



## D'karr (Jul 15, 2008)

Lanefan said:


> We-ell, from what I can tell 4e seems to want to specialize in big open-area set-piece encounters...which is good.  There's one in KotS, for example, with some Goblins in a mine...some of the area is 10' below the rest, and the map shows where the ladders etc. are...and that'd be a headache to try and draw at all accurately on a chalkboard.
> 
> A couple of quick questions, for those as have seen H2:
> 
> 1. The actual dungeon part - bigger, smaller, or about the same as KotS?




It is bigger than H1.



> 2. Can it be run independently of KotS, similar to how Forge of Fury could be run independently of Sunless citadel; or are they so much intertwined one pretty much has to follow the other?




It can be run completely independently of H1.  However, some of the initial plot hooks provided in the adventure relate directly to H1.  The connections are tenuous at best and can easily be dropped for your preference.



> 3. Any good landscape or scenic art in it, such as was in Worlds and Monsters?
> 
> Lanefan




I have not seen Worlds and Monsters so I can't comment in comparison.  However most of the art is practical.  The adventure includes some art that can be shown to the players to enhance some specific encounters.  The art is similar to that seen in Shattered Gates of Slaughtergard.


----------



## EP (Jul 15, 2008)

Is the Labyrinth actually a labyrinth or just a big dungeon with lots of doors?


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 15, 2008)

EP said:


> Is the Labyrinth actually a labyrinth or just a big dungeon with lots of doors?




Its a 1-mile-square multi-level series of caverns, chambers, and passages. Kind of a cross between Descent to the Depths and Dwellers of the Forbidden City.


----------



## Reaper Steve (Jul 15, 2008)

A question:
Who/what is the winged bugbear or gnollish looking creature on the cover?
Thanks!


----------



## D'karr (Jul 15, 2008)

Reaper Steve said:


> A question:
> Who/what is the winged bugbear or gnollish looking creature on the cover?
> Thanks!



That would be one of the BBEG.

[sblock]
Maldrick Scarmaker - A gnoll with an abyssal flare.  He is the leader of the Gnolls in the Well of Demons area.[/sblock]


----------



## Echoes (Jul 15, 2008)

Well, since H2 is now readily available, I'll post a few more thoughts.  Spoilers ahead!

On the upside:

One thing I really enjoyed was how different the mini-dungeons felt.  The Bloodreaver hidehout is designed differently than the duergar stronghold, and both the Demonic Gnoll temple and Windowless/Stairless mage tower pose interesting strategic variations.  

More particularly, the duergar stronghold is a very cool location in terms of its three-fortress setup, which I enjoyed, and the Gnoll base reminded me (in a good way) of some 2nd edition modules that I've DMed in terms of design.  It's a series of rooms that are loosely tied together, and since the whole area is essentially one big demonic deathtrap/test of strength, Mearls and Baker went pretty wild in the actual room and encounter design, which I definitely enjoyed.

I also enjoyed the random encounters and the skill challenges.  The Vecna skill challenge is pretty cool and more "abstract" than a lot of challenges, though I'm planning on making it more of a puzzle than it already is.  The "adventure spirit" skill challenge is likewise pretty interesting.

On the downside:

As I noted before, I didn't necessarily like how A lead to B leads to C, but there are enough plot hooks (and enough small bits of description) that have already allowed me to formulate some sidetreks and red herrings.  

The goofy "monsters have secreted away treasure that they could use but do not for metagame balance."  While not as present as it was in H1, there are still some cases where this occurs (and I know it's more of a 4e philosophy nitpick than an adventure-specific complaint).

But really not too much else.  I had feared that levels 4-6 would be the same as 1-3 would be the same as 10-13 etc., but based on Thunderspire Labyrinth, I'm happy to say that just a little further into the heroic tier there is a lot more variety, and a much more palpable sense of "danger."


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 16, 2008)

Echoes said:


> As I noted before, I didn't necessarily like how A lead to B leads to C, but there are enough plot hooks (and enough small bits of description) that have already allowed me to formulate some sidetreks and red herrings.




This is actually one of my favored types of adventures, as I prefer shorter, interconnected adventure sites with a strong connecting plot to long dungeon crawls or sandbox style adventures (though both are nice for an occassional change of pace).  Of course, this kind of style can become way too linear if the DM is not provided with lots of ancillary stuff to spice up the journey or downtime between the adventure sites.  Luckily, H2 comes with that in spades IMO.


----------



## Lanefan (Jul 16, 2008)

D'karr said:


> It is bigger than H1.



Really?  I'm a bit surprised, but pleasantly so.







> It can be run completely independently of H1.  However, some of the initial plot hooks provided in the adventure relate directly to H1.  The connections are tenuous at best and can easily be dropped for your preference.



Good to hear.  I think I'll be picking this one up when chance allows.







> I have not seen Worlds and Monsters so I can't comment in comparison.  However most of the art is practical.  The adventure includes some art that can be shown to the players to enhance some specific encounters.  The art is similar to that seen in Shattered Gates of Slaughtergard.



I'm not familiar with Shattered Gates.  If you need landscape ideas for adventures, I very much recommend W+M...just ignore all the writing parts. 

Lanefan


----------



## Reaper Steve (Jul 16, 2008)

D'karr said:


> That would be one of the BBEG.




Thank you! Curiousity satisfied until amazon delivers!


----------



## Pinotage (Jul 16, 2008)

Shroomy said:


> Much, much better.




Yip, definitely. It's kind of reminiscent of Castle Whiterock in a way, but I worry that it suffers from 'Neverending Plot' syndrome. What I means is it feels like you conquer one location only to be told that what you want is at the next. The you conquer the next, only to find out that you really need to go to the third. That's quite annoying, really. There's also not a lot in the main 'friendly' location to directly lead you to these other locations so you can miss out on one or the other.

Still, better than H1. Lot more character to it, with more interesting locations and critters. And skill challenges, thankfully, as well.

Pinotage


----------



## Pinotage (Jul 16, 2008)

Grimstaff said:


> Its a 1-mile-square multi-level series of caverns, chambers, and passages. Kind of a cross between Descent to the Depths and Dwellers of the Forbidden City.




That was my first thought as well when reading through the introductory booklet. Definitely a lot of Descent into the Depths of the Earth, though no kuo-toa unfortunately.

Pinotage


----------



## D'karr (Jul 16, 2008)

Pinotage said:


> Yip, definitely. It's kind of reminiscent of Castle Whiterock in a way, but I worry that it suffers from 'Neverending Plot' syndrome. What I means is it feels like you conquer one location only to be told that what you want is at the next. The you conquer the next, only to find out that you really need to go to the third. That's quite annoying, really. There's also not a lot in the main 'friendly' location to directly lead you to these other locations so you can miss out on one or the other.
> 
> Still, better than H1. Lot more character to it, with more interesting locations and critters. And skill challenges, thankfully, as well.
> 
> Pinotage



Even though it does seem to suffer from "NEP", I've found that this one really allows a DM to break that trend rather easily and without much fuss.  

[sblock]The prisoners seem to be the thread that keeps the movement from one location to another happening.  You search for prisoners A,B and C and find out that A&B are in location 1 but C has been moved to location 2.  In most of these cases it is rather simple to just not move the prisoner at all.  

As a DM I'd do that if I found that I wanted to break the pace and maybe even introduce a side-trek.  For example after Horned Hold, there is no real reason to go after the gnolls unless you are searching for those last few prisoners.  This is a perfect break point to introduce something different if the DM wants.  But the DM would have to introduce a separate hook to lead the party to the Well of Demons, if he wanted to continue the adventure after Horned Hold and the side-trek.  Another hook can be introduced in the Seven Pillared Hall, possibly from the inn-keeper and nephew.

If the party is then "hired" or encouraged by the Mages to find the renegade, you can have two different reasons to continue.  In addition, since the Seven Pillared Hall is a sort of "crossroads" for commerce with the Underdark, you can really open up lots of avenues not necessarily included in the published material.[/sblock]


----------



## vagabundo (Jul 16, 2008)

D'karr said:


> Even though it does seem to suffer from *"NEP"*, I've found that this one really allows a DM to break that trend rather easily and without much fuss.




NEP??

Net Ecosystem Productivity...

North Ecliptic Pole??


----------



## Pinotage (Jul 16, 2008)

vagabundo said:


> NEP??
> 
> Net Ecosystem Productivity...
> 
> North Ecliptic Pole??




Heh.  No, he was refering to 'Neverending Plot' as I mentioned in my post which he replied to.

Pinotage


----------



## D'karr (Jul 16, 2008)

Pinotage said:


> Yip, definitely. It's kind of reminiscent of Castle Whiterock in a way, but I worry that it suffers from *'Neverending Plot'* syndrome. What I means is it feels like you conquer one location only to be told that what you want is at the next. The you conquer the next, only to find out that you really need to go to the third. That's quite annoying, really. There's also not a lot in the main 'friendly' location to directly lead you to these other locations so you can miss out on one or the other.
> 
> Still, better than H1. Lot more character to it, with more interesting locations and critters. And skill challenges, thankfully, as well.
> 
> Pinotage






vagabundo said:


> NEP??
> 
> Net Ecosystem Productivity...
> 
> North Ecliptic Pole??




I'll refer you to the quoted text I included in my original post.


----------



## Echoes (Jul 16, 2008)

Now I just want my players to finish up Keep on the Shadowfell as soon as possible.  They're only on room 4 of the first level -- that looks to mean about another 12-16 hours of playtime to go.  Guess that gives me a couple of weeks to flesh things out, assuming I don't TPK them on Kalarel.  

Anyone have some thoughts on how H1 might best link to H2, aside from the slaves/slavers?  Some connection between Kalarel and Paldemar perhaps?  The possibility of a second portal to the Shadowfell somewhere deep in the Labyrinth?


----------



## D'karr (Jul 16, 2008)

Echoes said:


> Now I just want my players to finish up Keep on the Shadowfell as soon as possible.  They're only on room 4 of the first level -- that looks to mean about another 12-16 hours of playtime to go.  Guess that gives me a couple of weeks to flesh things out, assuming I don't TPK them on Kalarel.
> 
> Anyone have some thoughts on how H1 might best link to H2, aside from the slaves/slavers?  Some connection between Kalarel and Paldemar perhaps?  The possibility of a second portal to the Shadowfell somewhere deep in the Labyrinth?




In my game I made the following changes to link the two adventures:

[sblock]The bloodreavers are still slavers and still a link between the adventures.

However, Kalarel is Paldemar's apprentice.  She, I changed that too, was sent to Shadowfell Keep by Paldemar to explore the rift, and to "siphon power" that he intends to use for his infernal machine.  The truth is that Paldemar saw Kalarel rise in power and decided that she was a liability that he did not want.  So he sent her to Shadowfell, expecting her to fail and die horribly during the ritual.  But if she was successful the power that was siphoned would still allow him to kill her later when he disposes of the Mages of Saruun.

Ninaran is male in my changed adventure and he is Kalarel's lover.

In my original changed version the party of PCs was first hired to protect a caravan traveling to Winterhaven.  This whole "scene" happens long before they encounter the first Kobolds during the first encounter.  In that caravan, they meet Kalarel.  She was returning to Winterhaven after some research into the portal.
[/sblock]


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 16, 2008)

D'karr said:


> In my game I made the following changes to link the two adventures:
> 
> [sblock]The bloodreavers are still slavers and still a link between the adventures.
> 
> ...




And, in turn

[sblock]Paldemar is doing research on the Pyramid of Shadows. Knowing this in advance, I want to play up the clues for H3 a little more than I was able to do for H2[/sblock]


----------



## Ashrem Bayle (Jul 16, 2008)

For my part, I'm going to use the mirror the PCs found in the dragon's grave in H1. It's worth a lot, but who's going to buy something like that?

Valthruun will suggest that the PCs take it to Thunderspire. He's heard there are people there who buy things like that.

So that coupled with the note found about the slavers should be plenty enough to send them packing.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 16, 2008)

I'm sorely tempted to get it simply for the maps and the locations. To cannibalize to put in my own adventures.

However, $25 to do that is a bit steep.


----------



## Pinotage (Jul 16, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I'm sorely tempted to get it simply for the maps and the locations. To cannibalize to put in my own adventures.
> 
> However, $25 to do that is a bit steep.




The pdf is only $17.50, I think. Easy to cannibalize from that, though not so easy for the maps.

Pinotage


----------



## D'karr (Jul 16, 2008)

Rechan said:


> I'm sorely tempted to get it simply for the maps and the locations. To cannibalize to put in my own adventures.
> 
> However, $25 to do that is a bit steep.




I got my at Origins for free, but I was going to buy it from Amazon for less than $20.  Amazon has it currently for $16.47.  Honestly for that price this adventure is definitely worth it, IMO.


----------



## Rakor (Jul 16, 2008)

I was really happy with this adventure. I like the locations and I thought it was cool that they gave descriptions of places which have no bearing on the adventure. Baphomet's temple is ridiculously cool (although utterly vicious, Mearls is a _mean_ DM) and I love the big art spreads which can be used instead of Box text. I look forward to using the Seven Pillared Hall for general stuff in addition to just the adventure.

The only problem I have with it is the "princess in another castle" issue. You've defeated the evil monsters! But they work for darker Forces. You've defeated the darker Forces but they have Powerful Masters. You've defeated the Powerful Masters but they work for the Tribble of Doom.


----------



## Hawke (Jul 16, 2008)

Any suggestions for the BBEG mini?


----------



## D'karr (Jul 17, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Any suggestions for the BBEG mini?




There are several BBEGs.  One at each major location.  For most of mine I'm using metal minis.

[sblock]
Tower of Mysteries
  Paldemar - Reaper's 14180: Tharian, Necropolis Mage

Well of Demons
  Maldrick Scarmaker - Chainmail's Naresh Gnoll Cleric

Horned Hold
  Murkelmor - Reaper's - 02472: Thain Grimthorn

  Duergar Lieutenants - Reaper's 02989: Duergar Sergeant and Grunts

  Duergar Theurge - Reaper's 02988: Duergar Cleric and Golem

[/sblock]


----------



## Grimstaff (Jul 17, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Any suggestions for the BBEG mini?




I'll probably use my DDM avatar of Orcus.


----------



## Rechan (Jul 18, 2008)

When you say the poster map is of all the sites, does the poster maps consist of just one or two rooms? Or is it a map of the _entire complex_?


----------



## D'karr (Jul 18, 2008)

Rechan said:


> When you say the poster map is of all the sites, does the poster maps consist of just one or two rooms? Or is it a map of the _entire complex_?




Just of some rooms.  A single two-sided map could not fit all the areas for this adventure.


----------



## Evilhalfling (Jul 29, 2008)

RPG.net has a glowing review up. 

http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/13/13899.phtml

well I'm convinced, ill homebrew the first levels, then lead in to h2
so much less work for a new parent/DM


----------



## Shroomy (Jul 29, 2008)

Nice review, I second many of his sentiments...it was the colored pools that immediately evoked some old school nostalgia when I first read the adventure.  And the Proving Grounds tis the awesome.


----------



## baberg (Aug 5, 2008)

I've got a question about a certain room of the dungeon.  It seems like it'd be a great addition to my campaign, but unless I'm missing something it seems like a save-or-die scenario.

[sblock]Page 44 and 45, "Hall of Enforced Introspection".  The Trapping Mirrors can, with a +13 vs. Reflex, teleport any PC looking into it to the Oubliette of the Empty Mind, which apparently has no exits.  And since there's a Trapping Mirror just to the left of the entry point for the PCs, it's possible for somebody to just walk into the room and become trapped, since the attacks are Free Actions at the start of the turn (and the PCs wouldn't know to close their eyes before moving into the room) it seems like if the first mirror hits they're trapped forever.

So like I said, unless I'm missing something obvious, once a PC is inside the trap, how does she get out?[/sblock]


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 5, 2008)

baberg said:


> I've got a question about a certain room of the dungeon.  It seems like it'd be a great addition to my campaign, but unless I'm missing something it seems like a save-or-die scenario.
> 
> [sblock]Page 44 and 45, "Hall of Enforced Introspection".  The Trapping Mirrors can, with a +13 vs. Reflex, teleport any PC looking into it to the Oubliette of the Empty Mind, which apparently has no exits.  And since there's a Trapping Mirror just to the left of the entry point for the PCs, it's possible for somebody to just walk into the room and become trapped, since the attacks are Free Actions at the start of the turn (and the PCs wouldn't know to close their eyes before moving into the room) it seems like if the first mirror hits they're trapped forever.
> 
> So like I said, unless I'm missing something obvious, once a PC is inside the trap, how does she get out?[/sblock]



I don't have the adventure handy, but I think 



Spoiler



There are some controls behind the curtains. And there's also a suggestion on what the DM can do to get the party out.


----------



## Evilhalfling (Aug 5, 2008)

baberg - yeah, but its still make the save, or sit out for a while.  The PC's who fail do get an extra monster to fight, so it really depends on how long it takes survivors to figure it out, or how they react to a split party. 

I like the hall and the multiple locations.  Im considering putting the hall of seven pillars underneath a large human city.  One that was built on top of earlier ruined cities.  The hall is the last civlized outpost before entering the underdark below the city.

The slavers would be changed to a human street gang, and the orginal builders would have been human worshipers of a Bull headed god. (so I can use pictures) dwarves and others I will leave intact. 

The only real challange would be to make the seven-pillared hall the ideal stopping point rather than returning to the more civilzed areas above. 
Any suggestions?


----------



## Hawke (Aug 5, 2008)

Evilhalfling said:


> The only real challange would be to make the seven-pillared hall the ideal stopping point rather than returning to the more civilzed areas above. Any suggestions?




Maybe getting down into the hall requires some crazy pulley/gondola system that costs a lot of money to get out. Sort of cheap to get in, pricy to get out... perhaps some internal conflict or something could make that price go up. 

Maybe the players get in trouble somehow in the hall and until the mages can investigate the accusations, they're forced to stay in the area. When they ask whether or not they can wander in the darkness outside the hall, they're laughed at with a "sure, good luck pal." 

Maybe there's a crisis - disease/outbreak or some criminals are being searched for either in the hall or in the city above. As a result the city is closed off making travel difficult. 

Finally the least rail-roaded would be to let them but institute some kind of timeframes for their tasks. That is... it'd take a day of travel to get back up to the surface but they know that the "princess in the other castle" might not last that long and they risk losing.


----------

