# Monk Playtest



## shadowoflameth (Nov 11, 2022)

With the play tests ongoing and Warriors likely to come soon, I've been thinking about the Monk, and what I might recommend based on what we've seen of One D&D so far.

My thoughts:
Martial Arts. Generally a good ability. Give the Monk a fighting style at 1st. The Unarmed style shores up the 1d4 to start if you feel that it's weak, D6 if you are using a Monk Weapon or D8 if not. It looks like melee attacks might be doing some things differently too which might affect the Way of the Open Hand.

Ki Points. Not a bad mechanic but some abilities overdraw on them. 
1 Ki Point to do Flurry of Blows is OK but does not scale very well. Make it 1 ki point to do a second Attack action. Then at 5th with Extra Attack, it will scale at least a little. 
Patient Defense and Step of the Wind don't need to require Ki Points. Just make the Monk able to Dodge, Disengage or Dash as a bonus action without spending a resource to do it. 
Unarmored Movement is fine. If you're a skirmisher, more speed is a strong ability.
The Monastic Traditions deserve their own attention and fixes.
Deflect Missile is fine. It scales well and doesn't break anything. 
Ability Score Improvement and Feats working the same for the Monk as with other classes is fine now and with the play test changes that we've seen so far.
Slow Fall is fine but streamline it. Just say you reduce falls up to your walking speed. That scales, it's impressive when it comes up and doesn't break the game.
Extra Attack is fine. It works like it works for other classes that get it. 
Stunning Strike is strong and this deserves to cost a Ki Point. 
Ki-Empowered Strikes is fine. It's in line with what other classes with similar abilities get at 6th.
Evasion is strong. The level may need to adjust as some other abilities are in the play test. It works fine.
Stillness of Mind is situational, but strong when it comes up. Does it need to be an action? Maybe. IMHO.
Purity of Body is a nice ability. Poison comes up often. Neat, simple and gives you something useful.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon Neat, simple and gives you something useful.
Diamond Soul is strong. I don't know that the Ki Point to re-roll is even needed. Had multiple Monks during 5E and never seen a player need it.
Timeless Body, mostly flavor but fine.
Empty Body is strong and it should be at 18th level, or 17th if the play test adjusts it. The Ki Point cost may need to adjust.
Perfect Self is bad. Really bad compared to some capstones. It's bad at 20th and would still be bad at 18th. Just say 1/day the monk can regain all Ki Points on a rest.
Epic Boons becoming the 20th level capstone, I have the same thought as with all classes. I like this, but make an epic boon truly epic in power. It's likely the last ability your character will ever gain.

I have thoughts on the sub-classes in the PHB too. Generally though, I just want to say, sub-classes need to have abilities at least as effective as the options that the class gets at the same level. I hope they get that.

As ever, I respect the thoughts of my fellow gamers and these are IMHO only


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## MechaTarrasque (Nov 11, 2022)

For the longest time, I had difficulty reconciling monks being put in the same group with fighters and barbarians, and then I realized that what they have in common is no one can agree how super they are supposed to be.  Perhaps the warrior group could have some ability that got stronger the longer the fight goes on, so if you are just beating up some poor orc marauders in a couple of rounds, the fighter is some dude swinging a sword a lot, the barbarian is an angry dude, and the monk is a kung fu fighter (cue the song), but if the group spends an hour fighting Tiamat, the fighter becomes Captain America, the barbarian is the Hulk, and the monk is Goku at some late point in the fight.  I am not quite sure how that should work, but I think establishing the Warrior group as the Main Event types of the party.

Edit:  Maybe a bloodied condition.....


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## Clint_L (Nov 11, 2022)

I would increase their hit dice to a base D10 like other frontline warriors, I would start unarmed strikes on a D6 and go up from there, I would add their proficiency modifier to ki points, I would limit stunning strike to once per round, and Step of the wind would just use a bonus action.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 11, 2022)

Probably one of the biggest issues with the monk is its incredible consumption of healing resources.

If you look at the standard classes: Fighter has a great AC and second wind for some self healing. Barbarians take half damage from most things, so less need for healing. Rangers get healing spells. Even Rogues can take half damage, and can often move in and out without OAs to reduce damage.

Monks on the other hand have lower ACs in general and very little self healing (assuming you allow the Tasha's houserule). As a consequence, monks consume a party's healing resources far more readily than most fighter classes. that is something that I think needs to be fixed, monks maybe need some kind of meditation healing or something that can give them better durability.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 11, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Probably one of the biggest issues with the monk is its incredible consumption of healing resources.
> 
> If you look at the standard classes: Fighter has a great AC and second wind for some self healing. Barbarians take half damage from most things, so less need for healing. Rangers get healing spells. Even Rogues can take half damage, and can often move in and out without OAs to reduce damage.
> 
> Monks on the other hand have lower ACs in general and very little self healing (assuming you allow the Tasha's houserule). As a consequence, monks consume a party's healing resources far more readily than most fighter classes. that is something that I think needs to be fixed, monks maybe need some kind of meditation healing or something that can give them better durability.




Monks as of Tasha's guide have a nearly unlimited resource for healing: ki points.

So at least the designers agree with your assessment and I do too.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 11, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Monks as of Tasha's guide have a nearly unlimited resource for healing: ki points.
> 
> So at least the designers agree with your assessment and I do too.



If by unlimited you mean so precious you can't believe it

In seriousness, the problem with the current model is that it uses ki....as does EVERYTHING ELSE THE MONK DOES. So you get back into the classic monk problem, they blow through their ki so quickly to do X that now they can't do Y.

Healing should not be tied to ki, it could be an X per day thing. Or maybe a monk can meditate and after 1 minute, spend healing die. They are still limited, but now can activate that source of healing much more readily than their fellows can.


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## Yaarel (Nov 11, 2022)

Move the esoteric features of the Monk to the subclass, so the Monk base class can handle more character concepts, including nonmagic unarmored warrior, like Athlete.

A nonmagic base class can also help avoid overdependence on ki.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 11, 2022)

So here is my short list of the issues with the monk. I do not think the monk is as bad off as people often complain about, but it does need some love.

Remove or reduce the scaling of unarmed strike damage. This is legacy from 3e and doesn't work in the more bounded accuracy series of 5e. Monk fists should do respectable damage at 1st level, and not crazy damage at 20th. A monk shouldn't need a quarterstaff to be able to compete in combat.
Stunning fist should be weaker, and the rest of the monk made stronger (right now too much of the monk's power is pushed into this one mechanic).
Their ki for dodge ability should be some kind of reaction. Forcing the monk to spend precious resources on a defense ability it might not need in a round is an unfun mechanic and it creates too much of a strain on offense versus defense.
The monk could use some ability to convert their speed into X during a turn. Speed is a very DM dependent thing, in some games the DM makes that high speed almost vital, in other games, its basically a ribbon. It would be nice to have a meatier, more mechanical way to use speed that is more consistently useful for the monk. Or perhaps you combine this with your patient defense concept, to get something like:
Speedy Defense (replaces Patient Defense): The monk has learned to channel their incredible speed into evading danger. At the start of the monk's turn, they can forgo their unarmored movement bonus and gain a +1 to AC. The monk is not required to move to gain this bonus. The bonus increases to +2 at 10th level, and +3 at 18th level (aka when you gain +10 feet of speed).

Better self-healing (as I noted in a previous post).
Probably should divorce their AC from stats, as it creates too much of a stat dependency on the class right now to be combat competent. All monks just HAVE to have high dex and wis to feel competent.


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## mellored (Nov 11, 2022)

I think they just need to adjust the ki and AC to have more at lower levels, and scaling a bit less.

Like...
ki = 4 + half your monk level.
AC = 14+Dex or Wis while holding monk weapons, unarmed, and no shield (and doesn't work with polymorph).


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 11, 2022)

It seems most people agree on the basic wish list: a bit more damage, a bit more survivability, and a bit more Ki. I will be interested to see how those are accomplished (if WotC agrees).


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## tetrasodium (Nov 11, 2022)

I agree with a lot of what's been said, especially about unarmed strike scaling & stunning strike.  Back in 3.x I didn't care when a god wizard type could shut doown monsters or trivialize an encounter for a reason.  Specifically those reasons were that  I could make a god wizard with a few levels under his belt at the peak of his game fear for his soon to be very short life with something like a zombie climbing out from some debris or even skeleton archers far enough away from the main show to avoid being caught in the thick of things.  the same is not true of good ac good HP  good damage monks who just mutter "I used all my ki on stunning strike/flurry last fight, lets take a short rest" & get eager agreement from the warlock fighter to repeat it every fight. If monk is supposed to be a controller then it needs to present as one rather than a hybrid controller/striker/offtank.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 11, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> It seems most people agree on the basic wish list: a bit more damage, a bit more survivability, and a bit more Ki. I will be interested to see how those are accomplished (if WotC agrees).




As a bona fide 5e monk lover, I think most of the complaints about the monk are a little overblown. 

_That said, _I am really looking forward to seeing what changes they will propose. The best thing about the monk, right now, is that it is a genuinely different chassis. It is to the martial classes what the warlock is to the spellcasters; a fundamentally different approach to building a class. And because of that, it's a challenge for a lot of players to make an effective monk- unlike the warlock, there is no easy mode "EB Spam PEW PEW" build, and there are no "Monk Dips" that are popular MC options.

I do not want them to simply increase the hit points to a d10 or the damage dice. Why bother? Instead, they need to continue making the monk more distinctive. People don't want to play the monk because it's like a barbarian or fighter; people who choose the monk choose it precisely because it's not.

The issue with the ki does need a resolution; it's not so much that there are too few points; it's perfectly balanced for short rests. It's that for the class (and all the subclasses) they have made a design mistake. They make almost every ability trigger off of the use of ki, which presents the scarcity problem. I'm genuinely curious to see if they try and resolve this by a fundamental change in the use of ki, or if they just throw up their hands and give the monk more ki.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 11, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> I agree with a lot of what's been said, especially about unarmed strike scaling & stunning strike.  Back in 3.x I didn't care when a god wizard type could shut doown monsters or trivialize an encounter for a reason.  Specifically those reasons were that  I could make a god wizard with a few levels under his belt at the peak of his game fear for his soon to be very short life with something like a zombie climbing out from some debris or even skeleton archers far enough away from the main show to avoid being caught in the thick of things.  the same is not true of good ac good HP  good damage monks who just mutter "I used all my ki on stunning strike/flurry last fight, lets take a short rest" & get eager agreement from the warlock fighter to repeat it every fight. If monk is supposed to be a controller then it needs to present as one rather than a hybrid controller/striker/offtank.










I have to admit ... the "3e God Wizards didn't bother me, but those 5e Monks, they are WAY TOO POWERFUL," take ...  I am impressed. 

From the leadup (3e Wizards ... no big deal) to sticking the landing (we have to do something about those super powerful 5e monks!) every part of this take is pure genius. I am in awe. I am not even kidding. 

As a fellow believer in Monk Supremacy (uh ... okay, given the history of the Scarlet Brotherhood .... maybe I need to come up with better phasing) ... I love this take. This isn't just hot. It's not scorching. This is the Galaxy Brained, Carolina Reaper, Snarf Approved TORRID TAEK of the day!


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 11, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> If by unlimited you mean so precious you can't believe it
> 
> In seriousness, the problem with the current model is that it uses ki....as does EVERYTHING ELSE THE MONK DOES. So you get back into the classic monk problem, they blow through their ki so quickly to do X that now they can't do Y.
> 
> Healing should not be tied to ki, it could be an X per day thing. Or maybe a monk can meditate and after 1 minute, spend healing die. They are still limited, but now can activate that source of healing much more readily than their fellows can.




I you can rest for an hour, you can usually rest for two... So you just have free healing. Otherwise I agree. But it is a good sign, that the designers don't worry about monks regenerating very fast.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 11, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I have to admit ... the "*3e God Wizards* didn't bother me, but those 5e Monks, they are WAY TOO POWERFUL," take ...  I am impressed.
> 
> From the leadup (*3e Wizards *... no big deal) to sticking the landing (we have to do something about those super powerful 5e monks!) every part of this take is pure genius. I am in awe. I am not even kidding.
> 
> As a fellow believer in Monk Supremacy (uh ... okay, given the history of the Scarlet Brotherhood .... maybe I need to come up with better phasing) ... I love this take. This isn't just hot. It's not scorching. This is the Galaxy Brained, Carolina Reaper, Snarf Approved TORRID TAEK of the day!



"3e wizard" & the 3.x "god wizard" build were very different things that shouldn't be mixed any more than "5e fighter" & "5e GWM GWF PAM Sentinel sporting fighter" should be.  Yes a god wizard was a powerful force multiplier, but it was relatively fragile with a focus that left them with mediocre if any damage output & depended on everyone else bringing the force for them to multiply in ways that stun stun stun stun monk does not.

I'd say more fun draining than "powerful".  5e sets the stage with the GM already expected to fill an extremely bloated adventuring day and a lot of the tools that once existed to aid them in the past are stripped away.  The monk is just "I stun I stun I stun" with nothing to really push them into changing things up. There's none of the "well if I use X spell here I won't be able to use it later" calculus that once was & thanks to this they have plenty of ki to stun stun stun whenever there is a weighty opponent on the field after a certain point.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 11, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> "3e wizard" & the 3.x "god wizard" build were very different things that shouldn't be mixed any more than "5e fighter" & "5e GWM GWF PAM Sentinel sporting fighter should be".  Yes a god wizard was a powerful force multiplier, but it was relatively fragile with a focus that left them with mediocre if any damage output & depended on everyone else bringing the force for them to multiply in ways that stun stun stun stun monk does not.
> 
> I'd say more fun draining than "powerful".  5e sets the stage with the GM already expected to fill an extremely bloated adventuring day and a lot of the tools that once existed to aid them in the past are stripped away.  The monk is just "I stun I stun I stun" with nothing to really push them into changing things up. There's none of the "well if I use X spell here I won't be able to use it later" calculus that once was & thanks to this they have plenty of ki to stun stun stun whenever there is a weighty opponent on the field after a certain point.




Again, I truly enjoyed your take! 

I do find it difficult to fully understand the whole "spamming stunning strike" point for two reasons. The first is that it seems to run counter to "weak monk" idea that so many advocate. The second is that it's not something that _I've seen _in my playing experience, and not something I'd choose to do- to me, stunning strike is good, but very situational.*

That said, if you have groups with monks that just spam stunning strike with every hit, then I suppose they would run out of ki pretty quickly ... especially if they aren't concerned about it being a con saving throw, and really only truly useful on low-con, high value monsters (which are not common). 

I'm not sure why that's fun draining, though? Some people like one-trick ponies (EB Blasting Warlocks, Champion Fighters, etc.) and others don't. If the player doesn't want to learn to play the monk any other way, that's kind of on the player, right? 

*I'm not denying that this is your experience, but it's far from universal. Different tables play differently and all that.


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## mellored (Nov 11, 2022)

Another (better) ki solution.

Ki Pool: You have a number of ki equal to 10-your wisdom score (minimum 1).  So a wisdom of 13 would have 3 ki.

Focus Energy:  You can spend an action to regain 2 ki.  You can spend a bonus action, you can regain 1 ki.  You can do both in a turn.





Now that can actually skirmish.  Rushing in, unload you ki, then running away and recharge on the next turn.
Or you can bonus flurry on one turn, bonus recharge the next.
Lots of combos are now open.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 11, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Again, I truly enjoyed your take!
> 
> I do find it difficult to fully understand the whole "spamming stunning strike" point for two reasons. The first is that it seems to run counter to "weak monk" idea that so many advocate. The second is that it's not something that _I've seen _in my playing experience, and not something I'd choose to do- to me, stunning strike is good, but very situational.*
> 
> ...



They don't need to spam it every hit, just every hit against non-mook types.  The trouble ties into bounded accuracy & the bloated adventure days 5e forces on the GM.  Because of BA you have two factors


Spoiler: :two factors




Nobody is "squishy" & players act like it by not bothering to protect the squishies & just going for the most valued targets if there is any variation.
_If_ the ignored mooks _are_ able to threaten someone who didn't go after the big guy the results _look_ like execution by fiat & trigger the start of an adversarial player vrs gm mindset rather than pushing the rest of the group to do things like focus on mooks



As a GM it leaves a choice between mindnumbing waves of meaningless adam west batman vrs mooks fights & utterly depressing fights that make the table feel like they are bullying a monster.  The GM can't use a bunch of competent weighty monsters like level appropriate trolls/dragons/etc to strain those stunning strike ki points because it would look like punches are being pulled or death by fiat & having a bunch of mooks the group just ignores while burning down a weighty solo/bruiser/caster type  just makes for a chore of ending the big guyfollowed by a chore of cleaning up mooks who are pretty incapable of amounting to anything.


Edit:  I'd add the way movement around the battlefield has been so trivialized to allow ignoring the front line to be done so easily adds a third point to that spoiler


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 11, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> As a bona fide 5e monk lover, I think most of the complaints about the monk are a little overblown.




Yeah, same.  The white room analysis that proves monks are weak can make sense, but somehow I have managed to have a blast playing monks anyway.  (So far only in Tier I and II, however.)


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 11, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I do not want them to simply increase the hit points to a d10 or the damage dice. Why bother?




And I very much agree with this, too.  If the monk needs buffs, they should be unique, interesting buffs that lead to distinctive playstyle.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> They make almost every ability trigger off of the use of ki, which presents the scarcity problem. I'm genuinely curious to see if they try and resolve this by a fundamental change in the use of ki, or if they just throw up their hands and give the monk more ki.




And this.  The problem, shared by Sorcerer, is that Ki is used in the base class, but then also in many of the subclasses, which means that in order to use subclass abilities you have to cannibalize from base class.  It would be like designing Battlemaster to use Action Surge instead of Expertise dice.  (Ok, maybe not QUITE that bad, but same idea.)


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## Snarf Zagyg (Nov 11, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Yeah, same.  The white room analysis that proves monks are weak can make sense, but somehow I have managed to have a blast playing monks anyway.  (So far only in Tier I and II, however.)




14th Level. Diamond Soul. 

It's crazy good, to the extent that I've always viewed it as the defining high-level monk feature (even though it's passive).


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## Weiley31 (Nov 11, 2022)

I think Monk could use a bump up in the Hit Die department. A D10 would be a welcoming change indeed. Probably a bit more Ki Points would be nice. 

_Although, with Iron Kingdom Requiem having a feat/Essence that pretty much does bump up a class's Hit Die to the next step permanently, I'm probably good in that department anyway since IKR is one of the few 3PP material that I allow in my DND 5E games. Meanwhile Fizban, and Kobold Press has options to help a bit with Ki Points._


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## Clint_L (Nov 11, 2022)

My issue with stunning strike is that it is so much more effective than the other ki options that it turns monks into a one-trick pony. When you think of monks, you think of stunning strike. Maybe the answer is not to nerf it, but to give them a few more options that are competitive with it, to increase player choices. Mercy monk actually does this, which is why everyone (including me) is playing Mercy monks right now. More options equals more fun.

I actually think the monk chassis is pretty good - they do play differently than other classes, and they do feel like a highly mobile, light fighter. They're just a bit undertuned. They just need a bit more damage, a bit more survivability, and bit more ki, especially below level 5.


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## mellored (Nov 11, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> And I very much agree with this, too.  If the monk needs buffs, they should be unique, interesting buffs that lead to distinctive playstyle.



I.e. more Ki, not more HP.


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## Clint_L (Nov 11, 2022)

Sure, but they are supposed to be frontline fighters, so if you are going to give them more ki you have to give them more options to use it that increase their survivability. The knock on monks right now is that at low-medium levels (i.e. 95% of games according to WotC) they are underpowered and one dimensional. Like, is there a worse first level experience than playing a monk? It doesn't exactly sell new players on the class.


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## Lojaan (Nov 11, 2022)

Monk is probably my favourite class but I am aware how problematic it is. It really gets stuck in racial and cultural stereotypes in a way that other classes manage to avoid (except for the super cringe samurai subclass). I think we have a better, more aware WotC now so I am really interested to see what they will come up with.


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## mellored (Nov 11, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Sure, but they are supposed to be frontline fighters, so if you are going to give them more ki you have to give them more options to use it that increase their survivability. The knock on monks right now is that at low-medium levels (i.e. 95% of games according to WotC) they are underpowered and one dimensional. Like, is there a worse first level experience than playing a monk? It doesn't exactly sell new players on the class.



IMO, they are supposed to be skirmishers and assassins.  They get lots of movement buffs. 

So running past the front line to punch the wizard in the back and get him to drop concentration, or getting in the archers face to give them disadvantage.  Not standing still trading blows with a guy in armor and a great sword.

Could probably emphasize it a bit more at level 1.
Evasive footwork: "when you take the dash action, you do not provoke opportunity attacks until the end of your turn."

Now at level 2, you can spend a bonus action + ki, jump over the front line and kick an archer in the back.

Something no other class can do.  (Except the occasional misty step).


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 11, 2022)

Lojaan said:


> Monk is probably my favourite class but I am aware how problematic it is. It really gets stuck in racial and cultural stereotypes in a way that other classes manage to avoid (except for the super cringe samurai subclass). I think we have a better, more aware WotC now so I am really interested to see what they will come up with.




The last monk I played, technically a kensei, called herself a Swordswoman. If somebody called her a monk or kensei she would have been all "WTF?"

Or just killed them for impertinence.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 11, 2022)

mellored said:


> Evasive footwork: "when you take the dash action, you do not provoke opportunity attacks until the end of your turn."




Yeah it kind of annoys me that the thing rogues get for free costs monks a Stunning Strike.  (Although it does also grant doubled jump distance.)


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## tetrasodium (Nov 12, 2022)

another way of expressing the trouble with an ac10+Wis+DEX D8 hit die PC with stunning strike imagine a bladesinger 



Spoiler: saying these words



?

PC: I cast hold monster but it only lasts 1 round & lets us attack it with advantage plus does xx damage..  Does it save?
GM: it saves
PC: I cast hold monster but it only lasts 1 round & lets us attack it with advantage plus does xx damage..  Does it save?
GM:it fails but legendary resist!
PC: As a bonus action I use FoB to cast hold monster but it only lasts 1 round & lets us attack it with advantage plus does xx damage..  Does it save?
GM: it fails
PC: I attack with advantage dealing xx damage
GM a couple turns latr:  On the monster's turn... hold monster is in effect & your version grants no save on it's turn right?...
minutes later PC: LETSTAKEASHORTREST
fighter/warlock/moon druid/sorlock/etc: Yea LETSTAKEASHORTREST




It doesn't break concentration, it completely nul;lifies an opponent for one full round & gives everyone advantage to attack it


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 12, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Like, is there a worse first level experience than playing a monk? It doesn't exactly sell new players on the class.




1st level ranger or rogue? 

I did like my 5e monk. AC 15 and 1d8+3 + 1d4 + 3 at will damage is actually very very high. A ranger has nothing substantial at level 1.

Edit: new twf rules already buff monk survivability. They can now dodge or dash as a bonus action and still have a off hand attack. A very substantial boost to survivability if they need it.


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## MechaTarrasque (Nov 12, 2022)

I would prefer ki activated some kind of supernatural fighting styles (to activate the state, you spend 1 ki point, and you do 1d8 fire damage in addition to the normal bludgeoning damage when you hit an unarmed strike for all strikes hit in the next minute; for every ki point you spend, the strikes do an additional 1d8 fire damage) instead of being "one and done."  [As an aside that might be a good use for sorcery point for the sorcerer:  spend a sorcery point, and you can use burning hands at will (at first level) for the next minute without using spell slots.]


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## bedir than (Nov 12, 2022)

shadowoflameth said:


> 1 Ki Point to do Flurry of Blows is OK but does not scale very well. Make it 1 ki point to do a second Attack action. Then at 5th with Extra Attack, it will scale at least a little.



This means that your monk gets fewer blows until 11th level.


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 12, 2022)

bedir than said:


> This means that your monk gets fewer blows until 11th level.



...5th level, but yeah.


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## bedir than (Nov 12, 2022)

W'rkncacnter said:


> ...5th level, but yeah.



If as a bonus action you can spend a ki point to get an extra action you then get four attacks. Which is the same as the current use of the bonus action ki point flurry of blows which would mean you get two attacks plus two attacks.

The proposal is a nerf for levels 1-4 and stable for 5-10. That's a poor shift when most play is done at 12


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 12, 2022)

bedir than said:


> If as a bonus action you can spend a ki point to get an extra action you then get four attacks. Which is the same as the current use of the bonus action ki point flurry of blows which would mean you get two attacks plus two attacks.



yeah...at level 5. monks get extra attack at level 5 and then never again.


bedir than said:


> The proposal is a nerf for levels 1-4 and stable for 5-10.



well, 5+, but yeah.


bedir than said:


> That's a poor shift when most play is done at 12



i'm gonna admit, i had no idea what you meant by this for a solid 3 minutes.


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## Clint_L (Nov 12, 2022)

mellored said:


> IMO, they are supposed to be skirmishers and assassins.  They get lots of movement buffs.
> 
> So running past the front line to punch the wizard in the back and get him to drop concentration, or getting in the archers face to give them disadvantage.  Not standing still trading blows with a guy in armor and a great sword.
> 
> ...



Except a rogue, who can do basically the same thing without having to use the ki.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 12, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Except a rogue, who can do basically the same thing without having to use the ki.




You can't directly compare abilities directly. Tge question is, if the whole package is balanced.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 12, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> You can't directly compare abilities directly. Tge question is, if the whole package is balanced.




While true, it also feels different when the ability in question is (more?) iconic for the class that pays a higher cost to use it.


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## mellored (Nov 12, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Except a rogue, who can do basically the same thing without having to use the ki.



Rogue needs an ally for sneak attack, so they are usually hitting the front line.  Monk has no issues running to the back.
And with +10 speed, that makes dash less needed, and more powerful when they do.
Still think monks could use a better bonus to opportunity attacks though.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 12, 2022)

Spoiler: The'thing'






mellored said:


> IMO, they are supposed to be skirmishers and assassins.  They get lots of movement buffs.
> 
> So running past the front line to punch the wizard in the back and get him to drop concentration, or getting in the archers face to give them disadvantage.  Not standing still trading blows with a guy in armor and a great sword.
> 
> ...









Clint_L said:


> Except a rogue, who can do basically the same thing without having to use the ki.




No not quite, look at the math.  The rogue is easy, it deals 1d8+5+[1/2level]d6.  A sizable amount of damage yes.  The monk is no slouch there though & without using resources  other than action & bonus action it does damage that is fairly similar to the rogue all day through all of the 6-8 encounters the GM is expected to throw out.  

mellored's example of punching a wizard in back to make him drop concentration  is where things start changing dramatically though. The rogue with cunning action needs to force a failed save but the monk with +10 no action cost speed has two options.  The choice is simply to declare "and I'm going to make that a stunning strike" on any or even_ all_ of those 2-4 attacks that succeed to trigger a con save or stun where concentration continues but the caster can't action/bonus action cast more spells or trigger the ongoing effect as applicable to the spell being concentrated on.  In actual play with 5e spells the value of ensuring the caster won't cast another spell & granting everyone advantage on attacks against them is almost always dramatically more useful than ending concentration.    If you replace "caster with ogre troll firegiant or whatever the same complete nullification from the monk holds true"

Yes at low levels Ki is fairly limited but in late tier2 & into tier3+ that's not so true.  My current group just hit level 10 & with an assumed 2 short rests most adventuring days the monk in the party has up to 30 or more points of Ki every adventuring day giving it plenty of gas in the tank to nullify any weighty elite type monsters they face.  If by chance _all_ of the monsters are elite types that might tax the monk's Ki then the group has a good case to force a short rest either by refusing to continue or pulling back to rest a bit.


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## Clint_L (Nov 12, 2022)

He specifically gave the example as "at Level 2..." after I had pointed out that playing monks at low levels is particularly lame. I was merely pointing out that Cunning Action, which rogues get at Level 2, is generally as good as or better than Step of the Wind, and doesn't even use a resource aside from the bonus action (one change to make Step of the Wind more viable would be to make it something that is done as part of movement rather than as a bonus action, leaving that free for the secondary attack).

Monks are fun in concept. But the wide consensus is that they are a weak class because their damage isn't very impressive, they are fragile for frontline fighters, and ki is a problem at low levels. A level 1 monk is basically just a dude with a stick. At level 2 you get 2 ki points, so after that step of the wind you could do one flurry of blows (i.e. one extra stick attack) and then you are dude with stick again. At level 5 they finally get decent (not great), and that's because stunning strike is a legitimately potent ability, so they spam it whenever possible. They're like a Smash Bros character with one good move. It's around level 7-8 that they basically graduate to being a decent class...but WotC tells us that the vast majority of campaigns end around that time, or sooner.

Diamond Soul is amazing, so for the 1% of monks who get to that level (high level campaigns are WAY overrepresented on forums like this), I'm sure life is great. But it is a problem that in a typical campaign (again, per WotC) monks are kinda sucky. And it's not like this is news - players have been saying this about 5e monks since 2014. So OneD&D needs to give them a bit of a tune-up, and I think it needs to be something that will help them be more fun right at level 1.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 12, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> While true, it also feels different when the ability in question is (more?) iconic for the class that pays a higher cost to use it.




The monk has more base mobility than the rogue. At least at higher levels.
I don't disagree with you, but it is also something to consider.

I think by now, cunning action is pretty iconic for the rogue, and giving the monk the same would somehow dwarf the rogue ability.
I do think, that step of the wind could emhasize the jump bonus way more, so that the bonus dash seems just a nice add on. 
Maybe now that jump is an action, step of the wind might just allow jumping as a bonus action with extra oomph.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 12, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> No not quite, look at the math.  The rogue is easy, it deals 1d8+5+[1/2level]d6.  A sizable amount of damage yes.  The monk is no slouch there though & without using resources  other than action & bonus action it does damage that is fairly similar to the rogue all day through all of the 6-8 encounters the GM is expected to throw out.




Your damage sheet for the monk has an error. You gove two more attack damages for the flurry, instead of just one above normal action/bonus action attack.

I don't expect onednd to change that.
You also don't factor in correctly, that the monk can chose, which attack gets the SA damage, so if the rogue attacks woth 2 weapons, a rogue has a higher chance to apply (close to) max damage each and every round.

That said, I think the monk is still very good at dealing damage. Especially with tavern brawler and bonusactionless offhand attacks are a boon for both the rogue and the monk.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 12, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Your damage sheet for the monk has an error. You gove two more attack damages for the flurry, instead of just one above normal action/bonus action attack.
> 
> I don't expect onednd to change that.
> You also don't factor in correctly, that the monk can chose, which attack gets the SA damage, so if the rogue attacks woth 2 weapons, a rogue has a higher chance to apply (close to) max damage each and every round.
> ...



Thanks I corrected the bonus action doubling to fix the numbers


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 12, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Thanks I corrected the bonus action doubling to fix the numbers




And it is still totally in line with rogue damage. Especially when considering stunnig strike and magic staves on top.
And subclasses, which bring a lot more to the table than rogue subclasses. Our way of shadow monk with free teleportation was very annoying to deal with or outrun.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 12, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> And it is still totally in line with rogue damage. Especially when considering stunnig strike and magic staves on top.
> And subclasses, which bring a lot more to the table than rogue subclasses. Our way of shadow monk with free teleportation was very annoying to deal with or outrun.




I just realized (maybe it was already said in this thread and I missed it) that shadow monks will _especially_ benefit from the new dual wield rules, but only if they tweak martial arts to use the same rules.


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 13, 2022)

I agree on the flurry and the number of attacks. Just throwing thoughts out there. Perhaps if the ki point allowed the monk to add a proficiency bonus number of attacks. Don't want to over complicate too much. I don't think the number of ki points is out of line it goes up comparably to the sorcerers sorcery points, but if there is less demand on them from abilities that shouldn't need it, I think it would be fine. Stunning strike can make monks a one trick pony, but perhaps not so much if the sub classes actually had powers that were competitive choices to spend the points on.


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 13, 2022)

Patient Defense and Step of the Wind combined are not as good as the Rogue's Cunning Action. I realized after the fact that I said nothing about Unarmored Defense. There is a strong MAD in the monk, much more than the Barbarian having Unarmored Defense on Constitution. The monk's AC is mediocre. Not terrible but not plate armor. I think a lot of the problem players find is that they run out of Ki just stunning because with many sub-classes it is their only truly effective combat ability. WoTC seems afraid of OPing the monk with a sub-class that actually improves the monks effectiveness by taking it.


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 13, 2022)

My thoughts on the sub-classes, limiting myself to the Players Handbook as these are likely to be considered for play test in One D&D. 

The Way of the Open Hand. Probably the strongest combat monk subclass in the PHB (IMHO)

Open Hand Technique. These are decent effects, but with changes to how Unarmed Strikes work may need to change. The No Reactions option is something that will happen anyway if you are stunned, so maybe just make the knocked prone or pushed something that happens if you use Stunning strike whether it succeeds or not.

Wholeness of Body. 3 times your Monk level is an amount of healing close to 3 hit dice when you rest. Something that the Monk could do anyway without this sub-class. Perhaps just say that as an action, the Monk can spend hit dice to heal. It scales, it consumes a resource and it allows something that others, even other monks can't do. It's not a terrible ability though.

Tranquility. This can help save you from an ambush attack, but it's not strong for a 11th level ability. Don't make it a spell, just something that the Open Hand Monk has. It can have a save DC but if it's not a spell, then dispelling it won't work. I would also think it's OK to make it effective when the monk rolls initiative. Even if it's once per day, being able to choose when it comes into effect would make it more in line with this level.

Quivering Palm. This is interesting. It can be devastating but at 17th or 18th if the levels are changed in play testing, it should be. Make it effective immediately without using an action to activate or up to a number of days in the future. Most players will want it to just go off. Make a failed save equal necrotic damage equal to the targets maximum hit points and a success do half that amount, meaning possibly reduced to zero anyway. 

The Way of Shadows

Shadow Arts. I would recommend the language be in line with more recent published abilities. You get these spells 1/day with no components and can spend 1 Ki Point per spell level to do it again. You can also use slots if you have them. Generally though, this is an OK ability.

Shadow Step. 60' teleport is good and dim light or darkness come up often. 

Cloak of Shadows. This is a nice ability. It might not need much change. 

Opportunist. This is not much for 17th level, or 18th if the levels change. I would take away the attack by someone else requirement and just say when the target is hit (including by you) you can use Flurry of Blows as a reaction, even if you've already done it as a bonus action on this turn. 

Way of Four Elements. Here we go. 

This is possibly the worst designed subclass in the game. Maybe I shouldn't sugar coat it so much, it's worthless and it's options hurt your character to use compared to options that your monk has just being a monk. Please WoTC put this in the next play test. Que rant. As always, my opinion only. If you think playing this is fun, all respect. Have fun.

Casting Elemental Spells. Give the Way of Four Elements Cantrips. Some spells are simply not worth even one Ki Point because they are not as valuable to use as a Stunning strike or Step of the Wind. 

Then make the spell list be 1/day without components and cost 1 Ki point per level of the spell to do again. Make slots that the monk has, if any usable as with the language currently in use in Tasha's. Simple, useful and may at least give the spell a chance at being worth the resource.

With this change, make the maximum Ki Points spent in line and make the points spent to cast at all, if any count.

Monk levels 3rd-4th   2
                    5th-6th   3
                    7th-8th   4
                    9th-10th 5
                  11th-12th 6
                  13th-14th 7
                  15th-16th 8
                  17th-20th 9

This way Elemental Spells can be cast, up-cast, and be impactful scaling with the Monk level.

Elemental Disciplines. Make these all spells or all not spells. I recommend giving the monk an actual spell list and make the level requirements in line with the spell level. i.e. Breath of Winter (Cone of Cold) Level requirement 5th. (Not 17th) 5th. Ki Points to cast, 3. I still shake my head not knowing why they thought that Cone of Cold needed to take 6 Ki Points and be a 17th level ability.

Clench of the North (Hold Person) Level requirement 3rd. Ki Points to cast, 2.
Eternal Mountain Defense (Stoneskin) Level requirement 7th. Ki Points to cast 4.
Fist of Four Thunders (Thunderwave) Level requirement 3rd. Ki Points to cast, 2.
Flames of the Phoenix (Fireball) Level requirement 5th. Ki Points to cast, 3.
Gong of the Summit (Shatter) Level requirement 3rd. Ki Points to cast, 1.

I can go on but you get the idea. Drop Elemental Attunement in favor of cantrips. 

Make the Non-spell Disciplines a separate ability and make each one resemble an element related feat. They could grant a bonus spell if you like with the appropriate level prerequisite. 

My two cents on those. Granted on Way of Four Elements, I gave a buck and a half.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 13, 2022)

shadowoflameth said:


> Patient Defense and Step of the Wind combined are not as good as the Rogue's Cunning Action. I realized after the fact that I said nothing about Unarmored Defense. There is a strong MAD in the monk, much more than the Barbarian having Unarmored Defense on Constitution. The monk's AC is mediocre. Not terrible but not plate armor. I think a lot of the problem players find is that they run out of Ki just stunning because with many sub-classes it is their only truly effective combat ability. WoTC seems afraid of OPing the monk with a sub-class that actually improves the monks effectiveness by taking it.




I disagree. Monk and Barbarian are equally mad. And the barbarian unarmored defense is rather a ribbon feature, as usually the barbarian can't afford higher than 14 dex. So the barbarian can as well use scale mail pr half plate for most of its career and not use unarmored defense at all.

Also, with bonusactionfree offhand attacks, patient drfense suddenly becomes very good. It is just not as good as cunning action which does not allow for bonus action dodge, because it is just too big of a damage loss to be considered useful. And when it seems useful, just disengaging is usually the better option.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 14, 2022)

Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry?  Still a bonus action?


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 14, 2022)

The Flurry may need to change with new rules on dual wielding. The Barbarian is MAD as well, but Constitution adds both HP and AC. I played a 5e barbarian to 20th level and AC was never an issue. HP was so high and resisting many attacks helped so much it worked even at the lower levels.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Nov 14, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry?  Still a bonus action?



Free action once per turn at the cost of 1 ki? I'm not sure removing the action cost makes it ''omg too OP!!!''. 

I'd even go farter and make it like the Hunter's Horde Breaker, 1 free (no action, no ki) attack against a different target, like in 4e. So the monk's routine would be: Main attack, second attack from martial arts, third attack against another target within range (if possible).


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## tetrasodium (Nov 14, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry?  Still a bonus action?





Spoiler: RAW Light Weapon/Unarmed strike



LIGHT [WEAPON PROPERTY] 
When you take the Attack Action on your turn 
*and attack with a Light weapon in one hand,* you 
can make one extra attack as part of the same 
Action. T*hat extra attack must be made with a 
different Light weapon *in the other hand, and 
you don’t add your Ability Modifier to the extra 
attack’s damage. You can make this extra attack 
only once on each of your turns. 
 For example, if you take the Attack Action on 
your turn and have a Shortsword in one hand 
and a Dagger in the other—each of which has the 
Light property—you can make one attack with 
each weapon, but you don’t add your Strength or 
Dexterity Modifier to the damage roll of the 
second weapon. 

UNARMED STRIKE 
An Unarmed Strike is a melee attack that 
involves you using your body to damage, 
grapple, or shove a target within your Reach. 
 Your bonus to hit with an Unarmed Strike 
equals your Strength modifier plus your 
Proficiency Bonus. On a hit, your Unarmed Strike 
causes one of the following effects of your 
choice: 
Damage. The target takes Bludgeoning Damage 
equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. 
Grapple. The target is Grappled, and the 
grapple’s escape DC equals 8 + your Strength 
modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. This 
grapple is possible only if the target is no more 
than one Size larger than you and if you have a 
hand free to grab the target. 
Shove. You either push the target 5 feet away or 
knock the target Prone. This shove is possible 
only if the target is no more than one Size 
larger than you. 
GRAPPLED [CONDITION] 
While you are Grappled, you experience the 
following effects: 
Speed 0. Your Speed is 0 and can’t change. 
Attacks Affected. You have Disadvantage on 
Attack Rolls against any target other than the 
grappler. 
Movable. The grappler can drag or carry you, 
but the grappler suffers the Slowed Condition 
while moving, unless you are Tiny or two or 
more Sizes smaller than the grappler. 
Escape. While Grappled, you can make a 
Dexterity or Strength Saving Throw against the 
grapple’s escape DC at the end of each of your 
turns, ending the Condition on yourself on a 
success. The Condition also ends if the 
grappler is Incapacitated or if something 
moves you outside the grapple’s range without 
using your Speed.


The RAW is currently 100% "ask your gm" on if an empty hand counts as a light weapon or if a second empty hand qualifies as a "different light weapon", that's very bad & should be cleared up one way or another by the RAW somewhere.  With that said the monk traditionally has light weapons that count as monk weapons.  With the current bonkers before or after each attack wording it doesn't matter (but should be fixed & designed accordingly). 


 With the new grapple & shove rules though flurry is pretty awesome with the current rules & should be treated accordingly in whatever the warrior group monk winds up looking like overall.  Personally as a GM I'd like to see flurry modify an attack rather than consume a bunch of time from one player making two more attacks.


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## MechaTarrasque (Nov 14, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Thinking more about it, if martial arts gets tweaked to work like dual wielding, meaning that the bonus attack is part of the main attack action, and not an attack action, where does that leave flurry?  Still a bonus action?



Reaction?  Spend a ki point to make 2 OA's?  Not something you would do very often but feels *very *martial arts, and it would give the monk an interesting front line role...


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 14, 2022)

MechaTarrasque said:


> Reaction?  Spend a ki point to make 2 OA's?  Not something you would do very often but feels *very *martial arts, and it would give the monk an interesting front line role...




Usually a reaction is in reaction to something somebody else does.  (Which _does_ feel very martial artsy.)


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## THEMNGMNT (Nov 14, 2022)

Changes that I would implement for the monk if a player at my table selected the class:

If you are unarmed, your martial arts die increases by one step.
Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind do not require ki points, just your bonus action.
Stunning Strike is replaced by something else. I'm not sure what. Probably levels of exhaustion.
I've had one player play a monk. He was reasonably effective. But by Level 6 he was bored with the class -- he felt like he was doing the same thing every turn.


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## Clint_L (Nov 14, 2022)

I'm currently playing a Mercy monk, and I have to say that it is a massive improvement to the class. I've got options that can allow me to make valuable contributions other than just trying to stun the enemy spellcaster. If a party member is down, I can punch them back to consciousness. I can apply the poisoned condition _with no saving throw_ to almost any opponent - that is really clutch against a tough melee combatant, so now I'm not just useful against the spellcaster in the back. I can even remove pesky conditions from team mates.

Mercy monk feels OP compared to other monk subclasses, but not compared to any other class. I think WotC kind of nailed it with this most recent subclass, and that is a good sign for OneD&D monks.

Edit: damage is still a bit too low. I really think unarmed combat should be viable for monks right from Level 1. And needs to be abetted by more magic items that will benefit monks the same way other melee combatants get tons of different magic weapon options.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 14, 2022)

shadowoflameth said:


> The Flurry may need to change with new rules on dual wielding. The Barbarian is MAD as well, but Constitution adds both HP and AC. I played a 5e barbarian to 20th level and AC was never an issue. HP was so high and resisting many attacks helped so much it worked even at the lower levels.




This is not what I meant: AC is not an issue. Con is always useful for the barbarian. But the barbarian can usually get to at least the same AC by just using medium armor.
So the barbarian needs str and dex and con and a bit of wisdom to resist mind control is not bad either. 

So monk and barbarian are in similar spots in their MADness.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 14, 2022)

THEMNGMNT said:


> Changes that I would implement for the monk if a player at my table selected the class:
> 
> If you are unarmed, your martial arts die increases by one step.
> Flurry of Blows, Patient Defense, and Step of the Wind do not require ki points, just your bonus action.
> Stunning Strike is replaced by something else. I'm not sure what. Probably levels of exhaustion.




You could balance the monk around that, making the basic functionality ki less and then making ki points a per day resource maybe. And stunning strike could be a prof bonus per day thing.


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## Horwath (Nov 14, 2022)

1. HD improved to d10(maybe even d12, monks should be tough as nails)
2. martial arts improvement from 1d4-1d10 to 1d6-1d12
3. proficiency in light armor, armor calculation 10+dex+wis or 10+dex+light armor or 10+wis+light armor
4. extra ki points equal to wis mod
5. regain 1 ki point when you score or suffer critical hit
6. extra skill proficiency
7. additional extra attack at 11th level(3 per Attack action)


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 14, 2022)

Makes sense. Personally, I focused on Con and Strength & didn't wear armor.


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 14, 2022)

Horwath said:


> 1. HD improved to d10(maybe even d12, monks should be tough as nails)
> 2. martial arts improvement from 1d4-1d10 to 1d6-1d12
> 3. proficiency in light armor, armor calculation 10+dex+wis or 10+dex+light armor or 10+wis+light armor
> 4. extra ki points equal to wis mod
> ...



Personally, I don't think an HD change is needed. The monk is mobile because he's a skirmisher.
Give the Monk a fighting style at 1st. The Unarmed style increases the unarmed strike damage die.
Unarmored Defense. I don't think that the Monk needs armor and thematically it doesn't 'feel' right. If you want armor, make a fighter with the unarmed style. 
I think adjusting Ki Point costs will help a lot. I like ways to get more Ki, perhaps a feat in line with Metamagic Adept? 
I haven't felt that skill proficiency was the monk's problem. 
If Flurry of Blows gave an extra Attack action, i.e. two attacks with actions and one more with a bonus action or two more with a Ki Point at 1st, or four attacks with actions at 5th and one more with a bonus action ore two more with a Ki Point, that would be strong. The trade off would be a limited resource (Ki) and your bonus action. This many attacks, would be on par with the fighter using action surge and even at 11th would be in the ballpark.


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## mellored (Nov 14, 2022)

IMO, keep the low AC, and add something else.

Mobile defense (replace unarmored defense)
When you targeted by an attack, spell, trap, or other hostile effect, you can use your reaction to move up to half your unarmored movement bonus (minimum 5'), without provoking an opportunity attacks.  If you move out of range the attack misses.
You can use this a number of times per day equal to you monk level.

Blade Catch: as a reaction you can reduce the damage you take from a melee attack by twice your monk level.  If this reduces the damage of an attack to 0, and it is a weapon attack, you disarm the enemy and take the weapon.

Extra reaction: you can expend 2 ki to take an extra reaction.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 14, 2022)

mellored said:


> IMO, keep the low AC, and add something else.
> 
> Mobile defense (replace unarmored defense)
> When you targeted by an attack, spell, trap, or other hostile effect, you can use your reaction to move up to half your unarmored movement bonus (minimum 5'), without provoking an opportunity attacks.  If you move out of range the attack misses.
> ...




Really the ideal monk ability would be Uncanny Dodge.  :-/

If I were put in charge of re-writing monk, I would:

Remove extra attack (yes, really).
Instead, give it extra reactions at the same levels that Fighters get extra attacks.
Give it all kinds of cool reactions, both defensive and offensive, and some of which are attacks.
There: the fluff of monks is that they are unarmed/unarmored, but their unique _play style_ is the bonus reactions.


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## mellored (Nov 14, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Really the ideal monk ability would be Uncanny Dodge.  :-/
> 
> If I were put in charge of re-writing monk, I would:
> 
> ...



Agreed.

Also, since your action isn't as much of your turn, using stuff like Dodge, Disengage, and Dash effectively cost less.

But I think 4 reactions would bit much turn order disruptions.  So to tweak it a little...

Level 1, ki pool equal to half your level (minimum 1).  You can use your action to regain all your ki.
Level 5, you gain an extra reaction, must be different triggers
Level 11, you gain an extra bonus action, must be different from the first one
Level 17, you gain an extra action, must be a different, must be different from the first one.

Now fill in with a bunch of maneuvers that cost and scale with ki.  As well as the movement passives.

Flurry (action or bonus action): 1 ki, make an attack, +1 for each additional 2 ki spent (so 3 attacks is 5 ki).  If you made this as an action, increase the number of attacks by 1.

Mystic Defense (reaction): Reduce damage by 5* ki spent, if reduced to 0 it misses.

Stunning Strike (action):  3 ki

Jump (bonus)
Double the distance per ki spent.

Trip/Push (action or bonus action), 1 ki per size level


Plus the sub-clssses
Shadow, teleport (action or bonus), 5' per ki spent.  If you use your action, you can also take along a friendly creature.

Element monk, breath of flame (action), cone 15', 1d8 per ki spent.  Increase cone size by 5' per 2 ki spent.

Etc...


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## Stalker0 (Nov 14, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Really the ideal monk ability would be Uncanny Dodge.  :-/



Which goes to another point.... realistically the rogue chassis is a good monk. Fast, agile, skillful, able to hit "pressure points" through sneak attack, evasion, blindsense. I mean if you just removed the rogue name and a few trappings (like thieves' cant) you could argue that chassis would make a very solid monk.


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## Yaarel (Nov 14, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Which goes to another point.... realistically the rogue chassis is a good monk. Fast, agile, skillful, able to hit "pressure points" through sneak attack, evasion, blindsense. I mean if you just removed the rogue name and a few trappings (like thieves' cant) you could argue that chassis would make a very solid monk.



The Rogue is an excellent historically accurate Ninja.

Moreover, a Rogue subclass can supply a mythologically accurate Ninja.


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 14, 2022)

Interesting idea, but how then to do the sub-classes? If you only want one kind of monk, but then 3rd, 9th, 13th and 17th are not a lot of chances to give him everything you want a monk to have.


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## mellored (Nov 15, 2022)

Just going to add that rogues (thief) got extra bonus actions in the play test.

So it's not out of line for monks to get it too.  (Or reactions)


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 15, 2022)

mellored said:


> Just going to add that rogues (thief) got extra bonus actions in the play test.




And in Baldur's Gate III.



mellored said:


> So it's not out of line for monks to get it too.  (Or reactions)




How about monks get extra reactions, rogues get extra bonus actions.  (Fighters, of course, get extra Actions.)


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 15, 2022)

Also, the One playtest has me kind of not very excited about the Solasta patch with Monk, Bard, and Warlock.  I want the new rules!


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## Njall (Nov 17, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> So here is my short list of the issues with the monk. I do not think the monk is as bad off as people often complain about, but it does need some love.
> 
> Remove or reduce the scaling of unarmed strike damage. This is legacy from 3e and doesn't work in the more bounded accuracy series of 5e. Monk fists should do respectable damage at 1st level, and not crazy damage at 20th. A monk shouldn't need a quarterstaff to be able to compete in combat.
> Stunning fist should be weaker, and the rest of the monk made stronger (right now too much of the monk's power is pushed into this one mechanic).
> ...




I'll have to disagree with a couple of your points, here.

1) the scaling of Unarmed damage with level is very much in line with Bounded Accuracy, IMHO. In fact, the idea behind BH was that leveling up would increase damage numbers and HP rather than attack bonuses (especially before proficiency bonuses were introduced halfway through the playtest process). Whether the scaling is adequate is another matter, tho. 

2)About patient defense requiring a Ki point: honestly, I don't dislike it as a feature. Games are usually about evaluating a situation and making the correct decision. Choosing whether you should allocate your resources offensively or defensively isn't a bad thing, especially in a game like 5e, that's sorely lacking on the "tactical choices for martial characters" front. On the contrary, I'd argue that "just spam whatever you can on your round and only make obvious choices" makes for dull gameplay. YMMV, obviously. 

I more or less agree with your remaining observations


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 17, 2022)

Njall said:


> 2)About patient defense requiring a Ki point: honestly, I don't dislike it as a feature. Games are usually about evaluating a situation and making the correct decision. Choosing whether you should allocate your resources offensively or defensively isn't a bad thing, especially in a game like 5e, that's sorely lacking on the "tactical choices for martial characters" front. On the contrary, I'd argue that "just spam whatever you can on your round and only make obvious choices" makes for dull gameplay. YMMV, obviously.




As I have expressed in many threads, while I agree philosophically here, when it comes to implementation I would love to see more martial abilities treated different from magical abilities. 

The core trade-off made with spells and other magical abilities is to use a resource now or save it for later. That is, you get a good thing now in exchange for a bad thing (not having the resource) later.

_Some_ martial abilities (Reckless Attacks is my favorite example) work differently: you can use it both now and later; the trade-off is between a good thing (e.g. advantage on your attack rolls) and a bad thing (enemies having advantage against you) that both occur now.

(In some ways what I dislike about the change to dual-wielding is that it removes the trade-off, for rogues, between getting an offhand attack and doing something else with the bonus action.  That said, it buffs melee rogues relative to archer rogues, and I think that's needed.)

So my issue with patient defense is that it's basically the caster model: you have a pool of a resource to spend, and it would be a benefit on almost any round it's used, so the 'game' is just deciding if it would be more useful now or later, with almost no information on which to base that decision.  It's a game of 'what are the fewest number of resources I need to spend to win this fight.'  And that's the caster model of play.

I would love to see the monk designed so that you can use patient defense whenever you want, but it costs you something other than a resource, with implications for the current round, to do so.


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## Clint_L (Nov 17, 2022)

Okay, so I love that last suggestion. Here is where I am currently at:

1. Bump their unarmed attacks by one die (i.e. start them at a D6)
2. Make Step of the Wind and Patient Defence available as bonus actions, starting at Level 2.
3. Add proficiency bonus to Ki points, and make Ki+flurry of Blows available from Level 1
4. Make sure that every subclass includes a competitive use of Ki right from Level 3
5. Put some kind of limit on Stunning Strike (once per round?) (although if players have more choices per 4, that might not be a problem anymore)


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## Stalker0 (Nov 18, 2022)

Njall said:


> 1) the scaling of Unarmed damage with level is very much in line with Bounded Accuracy, IMHO. In fact, the idea behind BH was that leveling up would increase damage numbers and HP rather than attack bonuses (especially before proficiency bonuses were introduced halfway through the playtest process). Whether the scaling is adequate is another matter, tho.



If we compare it to other martials though it doesn't fit. Almost all martials start the game with a 1d8 damage and some defense (shield), or 2d6 if they want to commit to high offense. However, there damage generally only scales through more attacks, there are very few true "straight damage buffs" except through a few subclasses.


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## Clint_L (Nov 18, 2022)

Yeah, there are a ton of problems comparing monk damage to other martial classes. The unarmed die takes forever to get reasonable - starting with a d4 is terrible and makes it barely better than an unarmed attack. On top of that, other martial classes have a lot more avenues to stack damage, such as rage bonus, smite, duelist, etc. And they have access to magic weapons, which are few and far between for monks and basically nonexistent for unarmed attacks.

An unarmed martial artist kicking total butt is a pop culture staple and it is really weird that D&D makes it so hard to achieve.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 18, 2022)

Because monks add their Dex bonus to their martial arts attacks their numbers can be decent, but it does kind of suck that to optimize your damage you have to use a weapon for so many levels.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 18, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Yeah, there are a ton of problems comparing monk damage to other martial classes. The unarmed die takes forever to get reasonable - starting with a d4 is terrible and makes it barely better than an unarmed attack. On top of that, other martial classes have a lot more avenues to stack damage, such as rage bonus, smite, duelist, etc. And they have access to magic weapons, which are few and far between for monks and basically nonexistent for unarmed attacks.
> 
> An unarmed martial artist kicking total butt is a pop culture staple and it is really weird that D&D makes it so hard to achieve.



Monk adds strength or dex to all of their attacks, it adds up pretty considerably.


Spoiler: fighter




Greatsword 16 str L1: 7+3=10
Greatsword 20 str L5:2*(7+5)=24
+1 Greatsword 20 str L11: 3*(8+5)=39
+1 Greatsword 20 str L20:4*(8+5)=52






Spoiler: Monk



"...
You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the
attack and damage rolls of your unarmed strikes and
monk weapons.
...
You can roll a d4 in place of the normal damage
o f your unarm ed strike or monk weapon. This die
changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the
Martial Arts column of the Monk table.
...
W hen you use the Attack action with an unarmed
strike or a monk weapon on your turn, you can make
one unarmed strike as a bonus action."

quarterstaff 16 dex L1: (2.5+3)+(3.5+3)=12  & 1 Ki/long or short rest <- This is more than the fighter at this level
Quarterstaff 18 dex L5:2*(3.5+4)+3.5+4=24.5 & 5 Ki/long or short rest <- This too is more than the fighter at this level
+1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L11: 2*(4.5+5)+4.5+5=35.5 &11 Ki/long or short rest <-- an average DPR that is _four_ whole points behind that of the fighter.
+1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L20:2*(5.5+5)+5.5+5=38.5 &20 Ki/long or short rest <-- 13.5 points behind the fighter but assuming the expected 2 short rests/long rest it should have 60 points of Ki for flurry or stunning strike. How could _anyone_ manage with _only_ sixty ki when they need to ration a _mere_ 7-10 points each of the expected 6-8 encounters?



Seems pretty comparable when you factor in the ability to drop stunning strike whenever beefy elite or caster types are on the field once fighter damage pulls ahead on the at will no cost damage.


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## Clint_L (Nov 18, 2022)

I was specifically discussing unarmed damage and how it sucks that you can't really kick ass as an unarmed combatant as a monk.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 18, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> I was specifically discussing unarmed damage and how it sucks that you can't really kick ass as an unarmed combatant as a monk.



So what difference does it make if the variable component of Alice the monk's attacks is a smaller range than Bob the fighter's if Alice makes more attacks that each carry the static component  to a similar or even greater aggregate?  What difference does it make if the resulting totals are equal or even greater?


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## Clint_L (Nov 18, 2022)

But your examples didn't do that. Your examples were using a weapon. (Also, some of your math was wrong, such as giving a +5 damage bonus to 18 dex).


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## tetrasodium (Nov 18, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> But your examples didn't do that. Your examples were using a weapon.



Have you not read how the martial arts ability works?  I believe the example even included the relevant section.


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 18, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Spoiler: fighter
> 
> 
> 
> ...



hold on, let me fix these for you:


Spoiler: fighter




Greatsword 16 str L1: 7+3=10
Greatsword 20 str L5:2*(7+4)=22
+1 Greatsword 20 str L11: 3*(7+6)=39 (the math here was right, you just put 5 instead of 6)
+1 Greatsword 20 str L20:4*(7+6)=52 (ditto)






Spoiler: monk




quarterstaff 16 dex L1: (2.5+3)+(3.5+3)=12 - ki is a 2nd level class feature. also, is there a reason why you aren't 2-handing the quarterstaff? we can get our damage up to (2.5+3)+(4.5+3) = 13 if we do. decently above greatsword fighter, but requires a bonus action
Quarterstaff 18 dex L5:2*(3.5+4)+(3.5+4)=22.5 & 5 Ki/long or short rest - we can get this up to 24.5 by 2-handing the quarterstaff, or 32 with flurry of blows. flurry of blows is massively above greatsword fighter but requires bonus action and class resource
+1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L11 - okay, wait, are you completely forgetting the monk gets extra attack at level 5? let me just recalculate this completely: 2*(4.5+6)+(4.5+5)=30.5, or 40 with flurry of blows. flurry of blows just barely beats greatsword at this point
+1 Quarterstaff 20 dex L20 - once again i'm just gonna recalculate this completely: 2_*_(5.5+6)+(5.5+5) = 33.5, or 44 with flurry of blows.
got the last examples wrong on my first go but that should be fixed now


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## Njall (Nov 18, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> If we compare it to other martials though it doesn't fit. Almost all martials start the game with a 1d8 damage and some defense (shield), or 2d6 if they want to commit to high offense. However, there damage generally only scales through more attacks, there are very few true "straight damage buffs" except through a few subclasses.




Well, actually, most martials gain a straight bonus to damage when leveling up, on top of extra attacks (Barbs gain a static bonus to damage while raging, which, at higher levels, is "always", and Paladins get Improved Divine Smite at level 11. Fighters are the exception, but they do get two more instances of Extra Attack, at level 11 and 15, and even rogues get scaling damage in the form of Sneak Attack dices,  while  monks, if you take away the scaling portion of MA, stop scaling at level 5.)


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 18, 2022)

Njall said:


> Well, actually, most martials gain a straight bonus to damage when leveling up, on top of extra attacks (Barbs gain a static bonus to damage while raging, which, at higher levels, is "always", and Paladins get Improved Divine Smite at level 11. Fighters are the exception, but they do get two more instances of Extra Attack, at level 11 and 15, and even rogues get scaling damage in the form of Sneak Attack dices,  while  monks, if you take away the scaling portion of MA, stop scaling at level 5.)




Possible translation: “Every martial class has an ability that makes damage scale. If you don’t count one of them, that class doesn’t have one.”

???


Now, maybe the monk doesn’t scale well enough to keep up, but it does scale.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 18, 2022)

W'rkncacnter said:


> hold on, let me fix these for you:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: fighter
> ...



nice way of obfuscating your "correction", I did find it amusing being asked if an example showing extra attack plus the free MA third attack was "completely forgetting" that monks get extra attack.  Martial arts is a first level ability.  I made the lists using only MA.  The quarterstaff was being used one handed because I read the MA entry where it forbids using it two handed for that no ki use BA attack, I didn't expect I needed to quote that part of the MA entry in a discussion about monks.  If it were being used two handed there would be no second attack at level 1 & no third attack at level 5+ . *Your "corrections" seem to omit the martial arts no ki spend extra bonus action attack & accompanying +dex to damage making their math fall apart*.  Perhaps that explains why we keep hearing about terribad monk damage when they aren't forced to use flurry.


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## Clint_L (Nov 18, 2022)

I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring my primary statement about UNARMED COMBAT just to be pedantic (which would be typical of this forum), but giving you the benefit of the doubt, I was specifically bemoaning the fact that the monk class makes it so hard to fulfill the classic fantasy of an UNARMED martial artist. So all your math using a weapon is irrelevant to my point. This is the third time I have emphasized the point.

Here's the original quote, which I made the concluding statement and put in it's own little paragraph for emphasis: "An unarmed martial artist kicking total butt is a pop culture staple and it is really weird that D&D makes it so hard to achieve."

You even quoted it in your reply, so I'm confused as to why you have consistently ignored it.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 18, 2022)

@Clint_L If you want to make a case for flavor of using unarmed attacks damage output is a poor hill to plant that flag because gaining equipment & improving power with new equipment is a big part of d&d.  Such a case has about as much credibility as barbarians who don't want to use rage calling for improvements elsewhere & red dragon sorcerers who want to focus on cone of cold.

There could be a solid case for a shift from damage towards 3.x god wizard style useless damage but awesome force multiplier by avoiding weapons, but you don't seem to be focusing on any of the things such a shift would require or how it could be done without also turning the solid DPR+stun chassis of the monk into an extremely overtuned thing.  I haven't focused on "_UNARMED COMBAT_" because the weapon I used in the example is a d6 & the martial arts die becomes a d6 at level 5 where the distinction between a 1d6+dex bludgeoning fist & a 1d6+dex monk weapon  deals identical damage.  at 11 the martial arts die jumps to 1d8  where both the fist and the quarterstaff deal 1d8+dex because "_You can roll a d4 *in place of the normal damage of your unarm ed strike or monk weapon*. This die changes as you gain monk levels, as shown in the Martial Arts column of the Monk table._".  There's literally only 4 levels where a monk with a quarterstaff deals more damage than one just using a fist & those levels are ones where everyone is just starting out but monk is still doing pretty well because MA extra attack allows an extra attack when nobody has one.


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 18, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> nice way of obfuscating your "correction",



???


tetrasodium said:


> I did find it amusing being asked if an example showing extra attack plus the free MA third attack was "completely forgetting" that monks get extra attack.



i'm gonna be honest - that was largely 1 am brain, so my bad there.


tetrasodium said:


> Martial arts is a first level ability.



i'm aware, but you were also listing ki point values per level, which is why i mentioned that monks don't get ki at level 1.


tetrasodium said:


> I made the lists using only MA.



i'm aware. i also factored in flurry of blows to provide a fuller picture.


tetrasodium said:


> The quarterstaff was being used one handed because I read the MA entry where it forbids using it two handed for that no ki use BA attack, I didn't expect I needed to quote that part of the MA entry in a discussion about monks.



that part of the MA entry doesn't exist. even if it _did _exist, there's no reason why you can't swap back to one-handing the quarterstaff between attacks, and no, i am NOT having this discussion with you again because quite frankly it isn't relevant anyway.


tetrasodium said:


> If it were being used two handed there would be no second attack at level 1 & no third attack at level 5+ .



no, they would, because once again, that part of the MA entry doesn't exist.


tetrasodium said:


> *Your "corrections" seem to omit the martial arts no ki spend extra bonus action attack & accompanying +dex to damage making their math fall apart*.  Perhaps that explains why we keep hearing about terribad monk damage when they aren't forced to use flurry.



oh, so you didn't actually read them, you just decided to get confrontational about them for no reason. cool. if you *had* read them, you would've noticed that not only did i fix the dex values at 5th level (since nobody gets 2 asis between 1st and 5th level, only 1), but i ALSO accounted for the +1 the quarterstaff gets to damage starting at level 11 from being a +1 quarterstaff, and also made sure NOT to apply it to the unarmed strikes granted from martial arts (and flurry of blows, since i also calculated the damage for that), as they are not the quarterstaff and thus would not receive the bonus. i didn't account for the difference in accuracy that would cause because...you didn't either, so i don't think you care, and i certainly don't care. but if we wanted to do the math more properly that would be a factor.

oh, by the way, even if i didn't fix the equations, a lot of your math was still wrong. 2*(3.5+5)+3.5+5 (or 3*(3.5+5) if we want to write it properly) isn't 27.5. it's 25.5. 2*(4.5+5)+4.5+5 is 28.5, not 35.5. 2*(5.5+5)+5.5+5 is 31.5, not 38.5.


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## tetrasodium (Nov 18, 2022)

W'rkncacnter said:


> ???
> 
> i'm gonna be honest - that was largely 1 am brain, so my bad there.
> 
> ...





Spoiler: Yes it does



At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of com bat styles that use unarm ed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any s*imple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed *or heavy property.'

Versatile. *This weapon can be used with one or two hands.* A damage value in parentheses appears with the property—the damage when the weapon is used with two hands to make a melee attack.


5e got rid of technical writing in favor of natural language.  I believe the phrase is _"any time the rules are unclear aadjudication is left to the GM's discretion"_

I didn't factor in flurry because the numbers were showing at will & the option to use flurry/stunning strike/etc needlessly complicates a discussion when the complaint is simply that damage "takes forever to get reasonable" rather than focusing on nondamage things those other abilities are lacking.  Since the push now seems to be focused on the plight of monks who choose not to use one of their no cost at will class abilities not dealing enough damage compared to any other class who does can we move on to the critical plight of red dragon sorcerers who don't deal enough damage with ice magic to compete with other casters who make an effort to use their abilities?


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 18, 2022)

Njall said:


> Well, actually, most martials gain a straight bonus to damage when leveling up, on top of extra attacks (Barbs gain a static bonus to damage while raging, which, at higher levels, is "always", and Paladins get Improved Divine Smite at level 11. Fighters are the exception, but they do get two more instances of Extra Attack, at level 11 and 15, and even rogues get scaling damage in the form of Sneak Attack dices,  while  monks, if you take away the scaling portion of MA, stop scaling at level 5.)




Funny way to look at it... Why do you disregard scaling of martial arts and 20 ki vs 5 ki?


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 18, 2022)

tetrasodium said:


> Spoiler: Yes it does
> 
> 
> 
> ...



versatile *is not* two-handed. they are *separate properties.* either way, this doesn't (directly) have *anything* to do with the martial arts feature that lets you make another attack as a bonus action, it's about what weapons count as monk weapons. if versatile *were* the same as the two-handed property, then quarterstaffs *would not be a monk weapon.* they *are*, so this is *irrelevant.*


tetrasodium said:


> 5e got rid of technical writing in favor of natural language.  I believe the phrase is _"any time the rules are unclear aadjudication is left to the GM's discretion"_



except *the rules aren't unclear here.* any weapon with the two-handed or heavy property isn't a monk weapon. the versatile property is not the two-handed or heavy property. ergo, the quarterstaff is a monk weapon, and you can use it two-handed while getting the unarmed strike from MA or flurry of blows. the end.


tetrasodium said:


> I didn't factor in flurry because [..]



i'm gonna be honest, i don't really care. i was just correcting your math.
edit: though it is interesting that even with resource expenditure, monk damage falls off hard at later levels when they have the resources to spam.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 18, 2022)

W'rkncacnter said:


> versatile *is not* two-handed. they are *separate properties.* either way, this doesn't (directly) have *anything* to do with the martial arts feature that lets you make another attack as a bonus action, it's about what weapons count as monk weapons. if versatile *were* the same as the two-handed property, then quarterstaffs *would not be a monk weapon.* they *are*, so this is *irrelevant.*
> 
> except *the rules aren't unclear here.* any weapon with the two-handed or heavy property isn't a monk weapon. the versatile property is not the two-handed or heavy property. ergo, the quarterstaff is a monk weapon, and you can use it two-handed while getting the unarmed strike from MA or flurry of blows. the end.
> 
> ...




While I agree woth your first points, I think your last assessment is not 100% correct:

If you just go down to level 19, monks can very well compare with a fighter who by then has just 3 attacks.
The fighter has some tricks upon its sleeve (action surge/ battle master dice), but at that point the monk is incredibly fast, has probably quite some AC and a way more powerful version of the fighter's indomitable, which essentially means that they are very hard to catch/dominate. 

On top, they have stunnig strikes in abundance and with tasha's even a better version of second wind for sustenance and a different version of precision attack. Also, with tasha, they can add some strikes to subclass abilities that use Ki and an action.
And this is all without counting the actual subclasses.

Add in the playtest feats: tavern brawler amd grappler, the new grapple/shove rules and bonusactionless offhand attacks and you are looking at quite some powerful class that might deal more damage than a fighter due to superior mobility.


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## W'rkncacnter (Nov 18, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> While I agree woth your first points, I think your last assessment is not 100% correct:
> 
> If you just go down to level 19, monks can very well compare with a fighter who by then has just 3 attacks.
> The fighter has some tricks upon its sleeve (action surge/ battle master dice), but at that point the monk is incredibly fast, has probably quite some AC and a way more powerful version of the fighter's indomitable, which essentially means that they are very hard to catch/dominate.
> ...



ok, but this is all utility/crowd control, not damage. my point was just about damage, because tetra's was too.


UngeheuerLich said:


> Add in the playtest feats: tavern brawler amd grappler, the new grapple/shove rules and bonusactionless offhand attacks and you are looking at quite some powerful class that might deal more damage than a fighter due to superior mobility.



ok, but that's not the current monk. i am very curious to see how the playtest monk will play - but it's not the current monk.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 18, 2022)

W'rkncacnter said:


> ok, but that's not the current monk. i am very curious to see how the playtest monk will play - but it's not the current monk.




No. This is not. Which is why I stated it last.
The rest of my arguments are still valid.

Sometimes defense opens up the way for offense.
I mean, in soccer, you play with defenders too. If the fighter with bad will saves, even with indomitable (and about a +0 or +1 bonus on its save) will just be taken out of combat, they will do 0 damage.
The monk likely has a +10 bonus and can spend ki for a reroll on a failure. 
Or later a fighter can be imprisoned by walls of force. A monk can become etheral and just walk out.


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 18, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> No. This is not. Which is why I stated it last.
> The rest of my arguments are still valid.
> 
> Sometimes defense opens up the way for offense.
> ...




White rooms don’t have walls of force!!!!


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## Njall (Nov 19, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Funny way to look at it... Why do you disregard scaling of martial arts and 20 ki vs 5 ki?



Because you're still limited by action economy. You can only flurry once/round, you aren't going to flurry more than 5 times in a 5-round fight anyway, so how much ki you get is not that relevant, as long as you get the amount of short rests/day the rules assume.
And all of the other features I listed are either permanent or last for the whole fight anyway.

Edit: for context, this was the post I was responding to: 



> If we compare it to other martials though it doesn't fit. Almost all martials start the game with a 1d8 damage and some defense (shield), or 2d6 if they want to commit to high offense. However, there damage generally only scales through more attacks, there are very few true "straight damage buffs" except through a few subclasses.




So yeah, I disregarded MA scaling because my point was that removing MA scaling pretty much takes damage scaling with level away from monks.


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## Njall (Nov 19, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Possible translation: “Every martial class has an ability that makes damage scale. If you don’t count one of them, that class doesn’t have one.”
> 
> ???
> 
> ...



Monks do scale as long as you keep MA scaling.
I was just disagreeing with the idea that damage scaling (coming from class abilities other than Extra Attack) doesn't fit with the concept of bounded accuracy and bringing some examples of other martial classes that do seem to get some form of damage bonus.
As I wrote, whether or not the amount of damage the monk gets is enough to keep up is another matter.




Bill Zebub said:


> So my issue with patient defense is that it's basically the caster model: you have a pool of a resource to spend, and it would be a benefit on almost any round it's used, so the 'game' is just deciding if it would be more useful now or later, with almost no information on which to base that decision.  It's a game of 'what are the fewest number of resources I need to spend to win this fight.'  And that's the caster model of play.



Ideally, the game gives you enough elements to decide whether you'd be better off using Patient Defense or Flurry of Blows in a round.
Going toe-to-toe with the BBEG while the rest of the front line tries to hold back and kill some mooks? Outnumbered? Patient Defense.
Need to kill that guard before they call for reinforcements? Flurry away.
Yeah, I'd love to see more "tactical" management in the game, rather than "strategic" management (of stuff like Ki and Expertise Dice), but that's not how monks are built.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 21, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Or later a fighter can be imprisoned by walls of force. A monk can become etheral and just walk out.



Are tot referring to empty body? That’s astral projection, which is a very slow form of travel (not to mention the 1 hour casting time).

Funny enough, walls of force block ethereal travel.


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## UngeheuerLich (Nov 21, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Are tot referring to empty body? That’s astral projection, which is a very slow form of travel (not to mention the 1 hour casting time).
> 
> Funny enough, walls of force block ethereal travel.




Oh, yes. I was somehow misremembering totally everything... 

What I actually meant was that the shadow monk can just step out if it shadowy...


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## renbot (Nov 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> So here is my short list of the issues with the monk. I do not think the monk is as bad off as people often complain about, but it does need some love.
> 
> Remove or reduce the scaling of unarmed strike damage. This is legacy from 3e and doesn't work in the more bounded accuracy series of 5e. Monk fists should do respectable damage at 1st level, and not crazy damage at 20th. A monk shouldn't need a quarterstaff to be able to compete in combat.
> Stunning fist should be weaker, and the rest of the monk made stronger (right now too much of the monk's power is pushed into this one mechanic).
> ...




Wow, I thought my only issue with the Monk was over-reliance on Stunning Strike. But I agree with all of this and hadn't thought of most of it. I actually copied it into my "house rules" Google Drive folder. 

Dodge as a reaction just...makes SO much more sense. And why not proficiency bonus to AC instead of a second stat? 

So thanks! Now how to sell it to my players for next campaign...


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## Bill Zebub (Nov 25, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Their ki for dodge ability should be some kind of reaction. Forcing the monk to spend precious resources on a defense ability it might not need in a round is an unfun mechanic and it creates too much of a strain on offense versus defense.



Yeah this is an excellent point. That’s a huge cost for something that might not even be needed. 

As I said upthread, my dream design for the monk would be based on reactions: more of them per round, and more things to spend then on. It’s very martial artsy.


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## shadowoflameth (Nov 28, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> Because monks add their Dex bonus to their martial arts attacks their numbers can be decent, but it does kind of suck that to optimize your damage you have to use a weapon for so many levels.



Easily resolved with a fighting style at 1st. A monk starting with the Unarmed style would use d6 or d8 on unarmed strikes and be able to do a d4 grappling.


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