# Masters of the Arcane



## Albedo (May 20, 2008)

Well, since my DM work for my other campaign has finished itself up and I'm just waiting on my PCS, I'm going to start my other campaign I had in mind. For people keeping track of my Epic Cinimatics game, this one will be pretty much the opposite.

Somewhere in the deepest corners of the endless Astral plane, lies a gate to a place known to noone. How does one find this place? Simply put, it finds you. In here lies the greatest of the great, masters the forces that shape the world around it to its whims. Here, spellcasters from around the world gather to break thru the standard conventions, the limits of magic. It is the place that epic legends are born. 

You are all master spellcasters. Whether or not you are a legend in your homelands matters not, they know of you. They sense you, and your powerful magical presence. You have all recieved invitations to enter this "School for the Masters of the Arcane". Of course, how to get to the gate was left out, but if you couldn't make it that far, you wouldn't be of much use there would you? And here you are, standing in a large arena, the "Circle of Beginners", being watched by a congregation of ten robed figures, leaving you with only these words... 

"It is time for your entry exam. To gain access to this realm, you must complete one task. Impress us."

Rules:

Characters will be level 20.
Abilities will be 32 point buy.
Allowed sources will be Core, Completes, Spell Compendium. Any other Wizards hardcover source will be considered but must be approved by me first. No SRD. 
Any Races allowed in said sources.
HP will be standard, max at first level and then rolled via invisible castle.

Characters will start with no equipment. If mundane items are required for your build, they will be allowed, but cannot be magical. (Armor, Weapons, Spellbook ect). Your wealth was all sent in as a tution fee. You will be given the chance to make money, and FYI, crafting is allowed here, and you will be given enough down time to do it. As well, social skills will be important for getting things for cheaper. No item creation chart, you can only craft pre-existing items (including rules for moving enhancement slots ect).

***Special***

ALL characters must have caster level 15 in a class with access to 9th level spells (wizard, cleric, Sorc, ect)

Don't let the name throw you, Divine Casters are allowed as well.

Spell duels are very common, and there is in fact a spell duel colliseum. It is probably the fastest way of earning gp and XP here, though try not to bite off more than you can chew.   

No spell effects will be permanent here. There is a magical effect on the realm that causes any spell effect to dissapate after 24 hours. This fixes even death, so you need not worry about dying via spells, though physical methods are still fatal. Fear the Coup de Grace.

Remember one thing. You are all here to surpass the standard conventions and become powerful epic casters.


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## Shayuri (May 20, 2008)

Are permanent spell effects allowed?

Or crafted contingent spells?

Or, for that matter, do we begin the challenge with any buffs precast?


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## Albedo (May 20, 2008)

For starting, no crafted contingencies, permanent spells, or buffs.


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## Walking Dad (May 20, 2008)

Would you allow the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror (similar like a Warmage, but specializing in necromancy)?

Choosing equipment takes the most time for me at character creation, so this game sounds like a dream for me.


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## Kaodi (May 20, 2008)

What do you mean by no SRD? Do you mean it as nothing from the SRD that is not in the books you are using (so no Manual of the Planes or Unearthed Arcana or Expanded Psionics Handbook stuff that is in there), or no SRD in general? Because the latter... just makes no sense.


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## Albedo (May 20, 2008)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> What do you mean by no SRD? Do you mean it as nothing from the SRD that is not in the books you are using (so no Manual of the Planes or Unearthed Arcana or Expanded Psionics Handbook stuff that is in there), or no SRD in general? Because the latter... just makes no sense.




I don't like using the SRD. While I may use it to judge bad rules as an act of clarification, you are to use the rules in the printed manuals.

Another important thing to note, Manual of the Planes, Unearthed Arcana, or Expanded Psionics Handbook are not on my usable sources list, so it doesn't really matter if there is an SRD or not.


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## Jemal (May 21, 2008)

Hmmm.. Now I just have to decide between my Dragonheart mage and my Force Mage..


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## Jemal (May 21, 2008)

OK, I have a few things to ask about.
I'm not sure which of the following I will be using for sure, but I figured I'd ask about them all so I know what options are open to me.
From PHB 2: 
Alt Class Features: Sorc (Metamagic Specialist), Warmage (Eclectic Learning)
Feats: Arcane Thesis, Dampen Spell
Races of the Dragon
Race: Dragonborn
PrC: Dragonheart mage
Feats: Practical Metamagic, the Draconic Feats 
Dragon Magic
Race: Silverbrow Human
Feats: More Draconic Feats (specifically Draconic Senses, Draconic Knowledge, Blue Dragon Lineage)


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## Vertexx69 (May 21, 2008)

Are the Races books allowed? dragon, stone, wild, eberron etc.? Are Eberron feats allowed as far as Eberron material is allowed, there are several good bard/monk/druid feats in there that have nothing to do with the eberron game world propper.

As far as the CL 15 goes, do you mean lvl 15 in one of those classes (or base + PrC w/+existing) ie: casting 8th lvl spells minimum, or can we use the practiced spell caster feat  to help reach it?

Im thinking about:
A drow cleric CL 19 with the Trickery & Pestilence domains
A dragonborn sorcerer CL 20 with an Enhanced Familiar
A cleric/paladin  CL 17/9 with a flying mount (Something neat with the winged template from SavSp p.137? Or maybe an Asperi from MMII p.25 with the warbeast template from p.219?)

[sblock=Albedo Only]Do you have any specific Polymorphing House rules? I've played in a lvl 20 magic battle before and when I started polymorphing myself and others, the DMs got all huffy  As an example I used _polymorph any object_ to assume the form of a were-tiger storm giant in hybrid form and just started picking up my opponents and throwing them through my maximized blade barrier at one point, while the 2 beholders I gated in made sure that the entire area between myself and the BB was bathed in antimagic.[/sblock] 

Would the feat "Armor Specialization" from the PHB2 p.75 be acceptible, and would it that DR stack with the DR from the adamantine fullplate I was thinking about (as its non-magical)? DR of 5/- isn't that bad against casters, but would help against summoned critters and cohorts.


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## Jemal (May 21, 2008)

Vertexx - 


			
				Albedo said:
			
		

> Allowed sources will be Core, Completes, Spell Compendium. Any other Wizards hardcover source will be considered but must be approved by me first. No SRD.
> Any Races allowed in said sources.



I think that he meant specifics from books (Such as Ebberon and Races of X), not books as a whole.  I'd suggest listing what you want from each book so he doesn't have to wade through the entirity of a half dozen books he may not even have access to.


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## Jemal (May 21, 2008)

More questioning for the DM (Sorry for Spamming) : 
Would ANY of the following count as a 'virtual feat' substitute for the Blood Magus class from Complete Arcane (Which requires Great Fortitude and Toughness): 
Rat Familiar or Loremaster's "Lore of True Stamina".  (Both provide an unnamed +2 bonus to Fortitude saves, like Great Fortitude)
Toad Familar or Loremaster's "Secret Health" (Both give +3 HP, just like Toughness).


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## Walking Dad (May 23, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Would you allow the Dread Necromancer from Heroes of Horror (similar like a Warmage, but specializing in necromancy)?
> 
> ...



Did you see my post?


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## Albedo (May 23, 2008)

Sorry guys, I've been a bit delayed getting my other gmae up and running.

Jemal: Sure, I'll let you take those abilities, though for the virtual feat question, neither of those apply sorry.

Walking Dad: I'm still trying to get a copy of heroes of horror.

Vertexx: I follow pretty standard rules for polymorph. You are still limited to 15 HD and you cannot assume the form of things with templates. I'm not allowing books in as a source, you have to ask for specific things. I'm not allowing your mount to be anything you asked for sorry. No templates, 3.0 monsters manuals, no savage species. At least in the terms of mounts sorry. You can use practiced spellcaster btw. And I'm not allowing special materials for items either. You can have fullplate, thats it. PHB only essentially.


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## Voadam (May 23, 2008)

Albedo said:
			
		

> Characters will be level 20.
> Abilities will be 32 point buy.
> Allowed sources will be Core, Completes, Spell Compendium. Any other Wizards hardcover source will be considered but must be approved by me first. No SRD.
> Any Races allowed in said sources.
> HP will be standard, max at first level and then rolled via invisible castle.




Drow OK? They are a race from Core.


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## Albedo (May 23, 2008)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Drow OK? They are a race from Core.




Drow are fine.


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## Vertexx69 (May 23, 2008)

Alrighty then, I don't think I'll be submitting a toon for this game, no gear i slike making half of a character...1 bad save roll and your dead. And since I always roll crap (the others can attest to this) I'll just bow out now, good luck all!


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## Voadam (May 23, 2008)

Working up a drow druid 18.

Would the druid avenger class variant from Unearthed Arcana be OK? http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druidVariantDruidicAvenger


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## Shayuri (May 23, 2008)

I believe I'll do up an oriental style sorceress. Yessss...


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## Walking Dad (May 23, 2008)

Albedo said:
			
		

> ...
> Walking Dad: I'm still trying to get a copy of heroes of horror.
> 
> ...



How are my chances you got the copy soon?

Other ideas:

Plain specialist wizard
Wizard 5 / Master Specialist 10 / Archmage 5
(what about "buying" new spells known?)

Bard / Sublime Chord (do you allow paragon classes from UA?)


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## Jemal (May 23, 2008)

Well my idea has progressed a bit, I'm stuck between three variants of a fairly standard Sorc/Archmage.  The variant is the third class.. Dragonheart mage, Loremaster, or Blood Magus.. Just can't decide which to go with. 

Well, here's rough drafts of each without spell selection..
[sblock=Dragonheart]
Elzmyr (pronounced L's-meer)
Silverbrow Human Sorc5/Dragonheart10/Archmage5

AL: CG  HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Silver  Eyes: Sea-green

STR: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
DEX: 11 (+0) [3 Points]
CON: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
INT: 12 (+1) [4 Points]
WIS: 12 (+1) [4 Points]
CHA: 22 (+6) [13 Points + 5 level]

HP:  (10d4+10d6+54)  AC: 10 (10 base +0 dex)
Saves: 
FORT: +11 (9 base +2 con)  
REF: +5 (5 base) 
WILL: +12 (11 base +1 wis)
Init: +0

Bab: 9
Attacks: 
Skills(Total/Ranks):[69 Points, Max rank 23] 
Concentration (+12/10), Diplomacy (+25/19), Know:Arcana (+21/20), Spellcraft (+26/20)

Feats: [8]  Draconic Heritage(), Skill focus: Spellcraft, Spell Focus(Transmutation), Spell Focus(Evocation),  Draconic Power, Draconic Legacy, 2 more
Bonus Feats: Draconic Breath, Draconic Senses, Draconic Resistance, Draconic Toughness(+14hp)

Class Features: Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Spell PowerX3, Metamagic Specialist(Instead of Familiar), 3 bonus Draconic Feats

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan

[/sblock]
[sblock=Loremaster]
Elzmyr (pronounced L's-meer)
Silverbrow Human Sorc7/Loremaster8/Archmage5

AL: CG  HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Silver  Eyes: Sea-green

STR: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
DEX: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
CON: 11 (+0) [3 Points]
INT: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
WIS: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
CHA: 22 (+6) [13 Points + 5 level]

HP:  (20d4)  AC: 12 (10 base +2 dex)
Saves: 
FORT: +7 (5 base +2 misc)  
REF: +9 (5 base +2 dex +2 misc) 
WILL: +17 (15 base +2 misc)
Init: +2

Bab: 9
Attacks: 
Skills(Total/Ranks):[108 Points, Max rank 23] 
Concentration (+10/10), Craft[Weaponsmithing, Alchemy, Stoneworking] (+10/8), Diplomacy (+25/19), Know:Arcana (+25/20), Know:Nobility(+12/10), Spellcraft (+30/23), Tumble (+3/1cc)

Feats: [8]  Skill focus: Knowledge[Arcana], Spell Focus(Transmutation), Spell Focus(Evocation), Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Practical Metamagic(Empower), Eschew Materials, 1 more

Class Features: +2 Fortitude/Reflex/Will(Loremaster Secrets), Skill Focus: Spellcraft(Loremaster Secret), Lore (+10), Greater Lore(Identify), Bonus Language(Celestial),  Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Spell PowerX3, Metamagic Specialist(Instead of Familiar)

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Celestial

[/sblock]
[sblock=Blood Magus]
Elzmyr (pronounced L's-meer)
Silverbrow Human Sorc5/Blood Magus10/Archmage5

AL: CG  HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Silver  Eyes: Sea-green

STR: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
DEX: 12 (+1) [4 Points]
CON: 15 (+2) [5 Points + 2 Infusion]
INT: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
WIS: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
CHA: 22 (+6) [13 Points + 5 level]

HP:  (10d4+10d6+60)  AC: 11 (10 base +1 dex)
Saves: 
FORT: +12 (9 base +1 con +2 misc)  
REF: +6 (5 base +1 dex) 
WILL: +11 (11 base)
Init: + 1

Bab: 9
Attacks: 
Skills(Total/Ranks):[92 Points, Max rank 23] 
Concentration (+11/10), Craft[Weaponsmithing, Alchemy, Stoneworking] (+10/8), Diplomacy (+19/13), Know:Arcana (+25/20), Spellcraft (+30/23), Tumble (+2/1cc)

Feats: [8]   Great Fortitude, Improved Toughness, Skill focus: Spellcraft, Spell Focus(Transmutation), Spell Focus(Evocation), Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Practical Metamagic(Empower)

Class Features:
Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Spell PowerX3
Blood Component, Stanch, Durable Casting(10), Scarification(Scribe Scroll), Death Knell 1/day, Blood Draught (Brew Potion), Homonculus, Bloodseeking Spell, Thicker than Water (DR 1/Bludgeoning), Awaken Blood 1/day, Infusion(+2 Con), Bloodwalk 1/day, Metamagic Specialist(Instead of Familiar)

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan
[/sblock]


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## Jemal (May 23, 2008)

WD - That seems like a loophole way of getting around the 'no equipment' restriction (Spending a lot of money on knowing more spells), as there's no equivalent to it for non-wizard characters, IMO


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## Walking Dad (May 23, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> WD - That seems like a loophole way of getting around the 'no equipment' restriction (Spending a lot of money on knowing more spells), as there's no equivalent to it for non-wizard characters, IMO




Yes, seems so. But any organic grown wizard would have aquired some spells "on the way". If not I would to have to take the leadership feat and learn the spells from my followers   

I don't think Albedo intended wizards to know less spells than sorcerers


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## Albedo (May 24, 2008)

Walking Dad: I said 0 equipment. You don't have any gold to spend on spells, scrolls, tomes, services, or anything. And btw, i'm not allowing the leaderships feat for this campaign. While wizards will be able to learn spells later, thats the current restiction.


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## KerlanRayne (May 24, 2008)

What about these items: 
Unearthed Arcana
Wizard Alternative Class Feature: Trade Wizard bonus feat list for Fighter bonus feat list. 
LA Buyoff rules

Player's Handbook II
Elven Spell Lore: It says it affects Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel Magic. Can it also work for spells that function just like those spells?

MM III
Petal race: Tiny Fey

DMG II
Weapon crafting templates. 

KerlanRayne


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## Jemal (May 24, 2008)

Kerlan - He's allready said no to the 3.0 Monsters Manuals (Such as MM2), and I believe from other experiences with him that he dislikes Unearthed Arcana (Much as I do)
As for the weapon crafting template, you know you probably won't have the xp/gp to create anything for a while right? (A long while considering the standard rate of PBP)

WD - At 20 A sorc knows 3 each of the top 4 spell lvls (6th-9th).  A wizard has 4 of each, +2 more of any lvl.  That's hardly a wizard knowing less.  for 5th and below they're pretty much the same, and, as Albedo pointed out, the wizard has the option of adding more in the future.  

Also don't forget you probably won't be the only wizard here.. if you know a spell that another PC doesn't, it's a fairly straightforward spell trade. "Hey, I'll let you copy Fireball if you let me copy Lightning Bolt".  Still doesn't help you right off the bat, but it is useful.
Besides, Wizards get other things Sorcs don't get, like bonus feats, faster Metamagic, better skill list.


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## Walking Dad (May 24, 2008)

Aye, you are right.

@Albedo: Can I use the alternate class features from Complete Champion?


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## Dire Lemming (May 24, 2008)

Well this looks cool.  I've always wanted to try a high level character, and without the need to buy equipment I might actually be able to make one.

What's the deal with this bizarre no SRD rule though?  I don't have my books with me right now and won't for a while.  Does that mean I can't make a character?


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## KerlanRayne (May 24, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Kerlan - He's already said no to the 3.0 Monsters Manuals (Such as MM2), and I believe from other experiences with him that he dislikes Unearthed Arcana (Much as I do)
> As for the weapon crafting template, you know you probably won't have the xp/gp to create anything for a while right? (A long while considering the standard rate of PBP)



Well MM3 is 3.5, so I was just asking. If he won't allow LA buyback, that's fine. I know some people hate it. I figured the alternative class options might not be too bad. He said that we could have mundane equipment. Some spells need weapons so I was going to get some.







			
				Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> What's the deal with this bizarre no SRD rule though?  I don't have my books with me right now and won't for a while.  Does that mean I can't make a character?



He basically means you can't use the entire SRD. You can only use info from the 3 core books, PHB, DMG, and MM. 

KerlanRayne


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## Kaodi (May 24, 2008)

Not sure whether I want to be part of this game, but here is a partial draft of a character I made a few days ago...

[sblock]

```
[B]Name:[/B] XXX
[B]Class:[/B] Wizard 15 / Archmage 5	[b]Starting Level[/b]: 20
[B]Race:[/B] Deep Dwarf
[B]Region of Origin:[/b] Underdark
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] Chaotic Neutral
[B]Action Points:[/B] XX
[B]Deity:[/B] XXX ([B]Domains:[/B] XXX, XXX)

[B]Str:[/B] 10 +0 (02p.)	[B]Level:[/B] X	[B]XP[/B]: XXXX
[B]Dex:[/B] 12 +1 (04p.)	[B]BAB:[/B] +X		[B]HP:[/B] XX (XdX+XX)
[B]Con:[/B] 16 +3 (06p.)	[B]Grapple:[/B] +X	[B]Craft Points:[/B] XXXX
[B]Int:[/B] 23 +6 (16p.)	[B]Speed:[/B] XX'	[B]Stat Increases:[/b]
[B]Wis:[/B] 10 +0 (02p.)	[B]Init:[/B] +X	[B]Spell Save:[/B] XX
[B]Cha:[/B] 08 -1 (02p.)	[B]ACP:[/B] -X		[B]Spell Fail:[/B] X%

[B]	Base	Armor	Shld	Dex	Size	Nat	Misc	Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]	10	+X	+X	+X	+X	+X	+X	XX
[B]Touch:[/B]	XX	[B]Flatfooted:[/B] XX

[B]Spell Res:[/B] None
[B]Dmg Red:[/B] None

[B]	Total	Base	Mod	Misc[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]	+X	+X	+x	--
[B]Ref:[/B]	+X	+X	+x	+X
[B]Will:[/B]	+X	+X	+x	--
[B]Notes:[/B] +3 Racial to Saves vs. Spells, Spell-like Effects and Poison

[B]Weapon			Attack	Damage	Critical	Range[/B]
XXXXXXXX		+X	XdX+X	XX-XX/xX	------
XXXXXXXX		+X	XdX+X	XX-XX/xX	XXX ft
XXXXXXXX		+X	XdX+X	XX-XX/xX	XXX ft
[B]Notes:[/B]

[B]Languages:[/B] Dwarven, Goblin, Undercommon, Draconic

[B]Abilities:[/B] Spell Power, Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Arcane Reach, Arcane Fire

[B]Feats: [/B] Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (Evocation), Spell Focus (Transmutation), Spell Penetration, Improved Initiative, Scribe Scroll, Still Spell, Silent Spell, Extend Spell, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell

[B]Spells prepared[/B] (Save DC XX + spell level; XX/XX): 0 - XX, XX; 1st - XX, XX
[B]Domains:[/B]
[B]Spellbook/Spells Known:[/B]
	0 - XX, XX, XX;
	1st - XX, XX, XX;

[B]Psionic Powers [/B] (Save DC XX + Power level; Manifester Level XX)
[B]Power Points:[/B] XX
[B]Powers Known:[/B]
	1st - XX, XX, XX;

[B]Spell-Like/Psi-like Abilities:[/B] XXX

[B]Skill Points:[/B] XX	[B]Max Ranks:[/B] X/X
[B]Skills		Total	Ranks	Mod 	Misc[/B]
Concentration	26	23	XX	--
C (Alchemy)	29	23	XX	--
Intimidate(cc)	08	09	XX	--
K (Arcana)	29	23	XX	--
K (Dungeon)	29	23	XX	--
K (Planar)	29	23	XX	--
Spellcraft	29	23	XX	--
[B]Notes:[/B]

[B]Equipment:		Cost	Weight[/B]
XXXXXXXX		XXgp	XXlb
XXXXXXXX		XXgp	XXlb
XXXXXXXX		XXgp	XXlb
XXXXXXXX		XXgp	XXlb
XXXXXXXX		XXgp	XXlb
XXXXXXXX		XXgp	XXlb

[B]Total Weight:[/B]XXXlb	[B]Money:[/B] XXXgp Xsp Xcp

[B]		Lgt	Med	Hvy	Lift	Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]	XXX	XXX	XXX	XXX	XXX

[B]Age:[/B] 
[B]Height:[/B] 
[B]Weight:[/B] 
[B]Eyes:[/B] 
[B]Hair:[/B] 
[B]Skin:[/B]
```

*Appearance:*

*Personality:*

*Background:*
[/sblock]


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## Graybeard (May 24, 2008)

If you are still recruiting, I am very interested. I have a 16th lvl character from another game that never got going so I would just need to update it and remove equipment buffs.


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## Rolzup (May 24, 2008)

The little man steps forward, smirking a little, and makes a low bow to the robed silhouettes.  _Too_ low a bow, one might think, to indicate the proper amount of respect.

"I am Brummagem," he says, straightening.  "Brummagem the bold, Brummagem the brilliant, Brummagem the bloody.  I have been saint and savior both, student to fools and teacher to gods.  I have walked the paths unseen, and I have learned the names which may not be spoken.  I have seen the beginning of time, and I have heard its end."

He smiles a crooked smile.

"It was the sound of a whimper...not a bang."

Long fingers twitch, half-shaping arcane sigils.  "Shall I impress you?  Truly?  I can call forth a god, or a monster, or a Thing that is both at once.  Or I can show you something greater still.

"Myself."

****

So, yeah.  A bit of an arrogant bastard, our friend Brummagem.  Perhaps with reason.  Perhaps not.  Who can be certain?

Race is human, alignment is Chaotic Neutral, outlook is oddly cheerful.  His build would either be Wizard/Alienist/Master Specialist (Conjuration), or Wizard/Master Specialist (Illusion)/Abjurant Champion.  As to the latter, what can I say?  He's a man fond of his own skin, and keeping said skin intact and unmarred.

But the specifics would depend upon the GM's preferences, and the group's composition.  His personality is the bit that most interests me, and that would be the same regardless.  Which is to say, a bit of a jackass...but a very social one.  Loyal to his friends, if all too aware that they aren't quite his equals, and very thirsty for knowledge.  And power.

Sweet, sweet power.


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## Graybeard (May 25, 2008)

Is the Imbued Summoning feat from PHB II allowed?


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## Jemal (May 25, 2008)

Rolzup said:
			
		

> The little man steps forward, smirking a little, and makes a low bow to the robed silhouettes.  _Too_ low a bow, one might think, to indicate the proper amount of respect.
> 
> "I am Brummagem," he says, straightening.  "Brummagem the bold, Brummagem the brilliant, Brummagem the bloody.  I have been saint and savior both, student to fools and teacher to gods.  I have walked the paths unseen, and I have learned the names which may not be spoken.  I have seen the beginning of time, and I have heard its end."
> 
> ...





"HAH!" the laugh filled the silence following Brummagem's proclamation.  "Brummagem the Boisterous, maybe..  Brummagem the Delusional, most likely."  A young man, perhaps not even out of his teens yet, stepped out of the crowd of 'recruits'.  His hair was wild and red with a large silver streak, and his robes were green, with red and silver highlights.  "You come before a group of your peers, and honestly believe any of us to be naive enough to believe such outlandish claims?  The only way an ungifted charlatan such as yourself has seen the beginning and end of time is with hallucinations!"  The man walked a circle around Brummagem as he spoke, paying as much attention to their 'audience' as he did to the wizard he was busy ridiculing.  

"Let us forget, for the moment, my own extensively researched theories on Temporal magics and future/past divinations.  Let us forget even the findings of the 238th anual Sarion Convention of mages at the Wizards Cove.  Let us focus solely on your claims and your current actions.  IF you were a powerful enough mage to have actually done or seen both the beginning and end of time, then what need would you POSSIBLY have of coming to this institution of learning?  No, you're here to learn, just like the rest of us, which means that you do NOT have the powers you claim.  Thus one must deduce that you are either Delusional, or a Charlatan, or perhaps just too full of yourself and used to interacting with people who believe you are as powerful as you believe yourself to be.  Most likely some combination of the three, I think."

He turned to face their 'examiners' then.  "Besides, these fine beings have asked us to impress them, not to bore them with our words.  So that is what I will humbly attempt to do."  
"Many sorcerors claim that their power stems from dragons.  But few can prove the power of their blood.  I, Elzmyr, descendant of the great Silver Patriarch Darelzmyr Cierellyx.. can."  Elzmyr spoke a few arcane words as he raised his hands to the sky.  The ground beneath his feet began to rise with a shudder, a 10' wide column rising from the ground, lifting him a hundred feet into the air.  Once there, he continues chanting more, though at that range it is difficult to hear.  Nonetheless, the effects are rather obvious as stone continues to change, the top becoming four dragon-heads which each spit forth a tiny bead to fly down and out, exploding into glorius starbursts of electricity above the watching crowd, Elzmyr slowly floating down amidst the explosions to land once more on the ground beside them.  

[sblock=ooc]
First off, I think we need an IC thread to continue this.. I'm foreseeing some GREAT roleplaying potential here.
Secondly, to Rolzup - Please do not feel like I'm attempting to slight you.  As you said yourself, Brummagem is Arrogant.. And thus when another Arrogant, powerful mage with opposing views appears (My character), there will be instant friction.  I personally think it'll offer some good roleplaying.  A nice little rivalry, perhaps turning into friendship, perhaps further emnity, who can tell?  Nightly debates on Magical theory and practice are not out of the question. 

Finally, as to the mechanics of what's actually going on - 
The Column raising him into the air is Polymorph Any Object [the ground under his feet into a 10X10(rounded) 200' tall Column.  Same kingdom (Mineral), Same Class(Stone), Same or lower Intelligence.  Duration factor 9 = Permanent.]  
The Electric Explosions are Meteor Swarm, altered by Archmage abilities (Mastery of Shaping making them appear to be 'starbursts' instead of spheres, by cutting out areas of them.  Mastery of Elements to change it from Fire to Electricity.)
The top of the colum reshaping itself is Quickened Stone Shape(He has Eshcew Materials, so doesn't need to do the clay-shaping thing,), and he 5' steps off the edge, casting feather fall to gracefully glide down.  
The rest is 'artistic license'. 

The whole thing takes 2 'rounds', so roughly 12 seconds, during which I expend a 1st lvl spell slot, two 8th lvl spell slots, and a 9th lvl spell slot.

Now if THAT doesn't Impress, then I'm stumped.

Furthermore, I've decided finally on my Character.  I'm going with the Loremaster.  And yes, he WILL be able to do everything I've said, though there is still some tweaking to be done.(Mostly in spell list).
[/sblock]

[sblock=Elzmyr]
Elzmyr (pronounced L's-meer)
Human Sorc7/Loremaster8/Archmage5

AL: CG HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Red with a Silver Streak  Eyes: Sea-green

STR: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
DEX: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
CON: 11 (+0) [3 Points]
INT: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
WIS: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
CHA: 22 (+6) [13 Points + 5 level]

HP: (20d4) AC: 12 (10 base +2 dex)
Saves: 
FORT: +7 (5 base +2 misc) 
REF: +9 (5 base +2 dex +2 misc) 
WILL: +17 (15 base +2 misc)
Init: +2

Bab: 9
Attacks: 
Skills(Total/Ranks):[131 Points, Max rank 23] 
Concentration (+10/10), Craft[Weaponsmithing, Alchemy, Stoneworking] (+10/8), Diplomacy (+30/20), Bluff (+11/5), Sense Motive(+5/5), Intimidate(13/5), Know:Arcana (+28/23), Know:History(+12/10), Spellcraft (+30/23), 6 more

Feats: [8] Skill focus: Knowledge[Arcana], Spell Focus(Transmutation), Spell Focus(Evocation), Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Practical Metamagic(Empower)

Class Features: +2 Fortitude/Reflex/Will(Loremaster Secrets), Skill Focus: Spellcraft(Loremaster Secret), Lore (+10), Greater Lore(Identify), Bonus Language(Celestial), Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Spell PowerX3, Metamagic Specialist(Instead of Familiar)

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Celestial

Spellcasting (CL 23)
Level (Per day) - Known - List
Cantrip (6) - 9 - 
1st (8) - 5 - Feather Fall, Shield, Magic Missile, 
2nd (8) - 5 - Scorching Ray, 
3rd (7) - 4 - Lightning Bolt, Elzmyr's Sight(Arcane Sight)
4th (7) - 4 - Stone Shape
5th (7) - 4 - 
6th (7) - 3 - 
7th (6) - 3 - Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying, 
8th (6) - 3 - Polymorph Any Object, Elzmyr's Energy Ray.
9th (6) - 3 - Elzmyr's Disjunction, Metor Swarm

*NOTE:  Many of his spells are called 'Elzmyr's X', as one of his theory's is that these spells were actually created by his ancestor. (Examples: Mordenkainen's Disjunction = Elzmyr's Disjunction, Polar ray = Elzmyr's Energy Ray, etc)
[/sblock]


----------



## Dire Lemming (May 25, 2008)

Hm, I was thinking, a character who concentrated on enchantment could be cool.  I usually only make single class characters under tenth level though so anyone got some suggestions?


----------



## Jemal (May 25, 2008)

Dire Lemming - Mindbender from Complete Arcane is a pretty good enchantmer class.  OR you could go with the Beguiler, which is a base class based on enchanting.

Albedo -Hmm, just noticed a few problems with my char, am working on them.  Meanwhile, I have a few questions for you.
the Draconic Knowledge feat grants a bonus to knowledge checks equal to the number of draconic feats you have.  Would that function for my "Lore" ability from Loremaster, which is essentially a knowledge check?
ALso, re: Lore.  It states under lore that it functions as the bards 'Bardic Knowledge'.  Does that mean I would gain the +2 synergy bonus on my Lore checks for having 5 or more ranks of knowledge: History?

[sblock=Slightly Updated Elzmyr]
Elzmyr (pronounced L's-meer)
Human Sorc5/Dragonheart Mage2/Loremaster8/Archmage5
AL: CG  HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Red with Silver Highlights  Eyes: Sea-green

STR: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
DEX: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
CON: 11 (+0) [3 Points]
INT: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
WIS: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
CHA: 22 (+6) [13 Points + 5 level]

HP:  (18d4+2d6)  AC: 12 (10 base +2 dex)
Saves: 
FORT: +9 (7 base +2 Misc)  
REF: +8 (4 base +2 dex +2 Misc) 
WILL: +17 (17 base)
Init: +2 (2 dex)
Bab: 9

Skills(Total/Ranks):[131 Points, Max rank 23] 
Bluff(+11/5), Concentration(+10/10), Craft[Weaponsmithing, Alchemy, Stoneworking](+10/8), Diplomacy(+30/20), Know:Arcana(+32/23), Know:History(+16/10), Spellcraft(+30/23), Spot(+18/14), Sense Motive(+5/5{1cc})
cc=CrossClass

Feats: [8]  Spell Focus(Transmutation, Evocation), Skill Focus(Know:Arcana), Draconic Heritage(Prismatic), Draconic Knowledge(+4), Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell

Bonus Feats/Class Features: LVL 19 Sorc Spellcasting, Metamagic Specialist(Instead of Familiar), 4 ranks of Sense Motive(Loremaster Secret), +2 Fort/Reflex saves(Loremaster Secret), Skill Focus: Spellcraft(Loremaster Secret), Bonus Languages(Celestial, X), Lore(+10), Greater Lore(Identify), Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Spell PowerX3, Draconic Senses(+4 spot/listen/search, Lowlight Vision, Darkvision 60', Blindsense 20'), Draconic Breath(2d6/spell level)

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Celestial, X

Spellcasting (CL 22)
Level (Per day) - Known - List
Cantrip (6) - 9 - Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, 
1st (8) - 5 - Feather Fall, Shield, Magic Missile, Mage Armour
2nd (8) - 5 - Scorching Ray
3rd (7) - 4 - Lightning Bolt, Elzmyr's Sight (Arcane Sight)
4th (7) - 4 - Stone Shape
5th (7) - 4 - 
6th (7) - 4 - 
7th (6) - 3 - Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying
8th (6) - 3 - Polymorph Any Object, Elzmyr's Energy Ray(Polar Ray)
9th (6) - 2 - Elzmyr's Disjunction, Meteor Swarm

Note: Many of Elzmyr's Spells are called 'Elzmyr's X', as oen of his theory's is that these spells were actually created by his ancestor. (Example, instead of 'Mordenkainen's Disjunction', he calls it 'Elzmyr's Disjunction')
[/sblock]


----------



## Dire Lemming (May 25, 2008)

Ah, I had avoided the Beguiler because I thought it didn't get level 9 spells but now that I check again I see that it does.

Hmm... got any non CRB suggestions for spells to take with Advanced Learning? 

So there are duels... Are their other challenges as well?  Like ones suited to casters that use exclusively enchanting magic?


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## Walking Dad (May 25, 2008)

I hope Albedo gots HoH soon. Dread Necromancer would be a very good contrast to a beguiler.

@Albedo: Do you have Liber Mortis? If I cannot be a DN, The closest think would be a Sorcerer/Pale Master.


----------



## Dire Lemming (May 25, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> I hope Albedo gots HoH soon. Dread Necromancer would be a very good contrast to a beguiler.




How's that?


----------



## Shayuri (May 25, 2008)

Work in progress

[sblock=Mei Ying the Magic Eater]
Name: Mei-Ying
Race: Human
Class: Monk 1 / Sorc 5 / Fatespinner 4 / Divine Oracle 10
Align: Lawful Good
Exp: 

Desc: Mei-Ying is a tall, stately woman of slim build and exotic features  

Str  9 -1  1
Dex 14 +2  6
Con 14 +2  6
Int 10 +0  2
Wis 12 +1  4
CHa 22 +6 13

HP 19d6+8+40
Init +2
Move: 30'
BAB +9
Melee +8
Ranged +11
Grapple +12
AC 23 (10 + 2 dex + 1 monk + 6 cha, +4 armor), 19 touch, 23 flatfooted

Will +18
Reflex +9
Fort +9

Race Abilities
Bonus Feat
Bonus skill points

Class Abilities
Improved Unarmed Attack
Improved Grapple
Flurry of Blows

Metamagic Specialist (PHB2 Variant Class Ability)

Spin Fate (can apply spin to spell DC)
Fickle Finger of Fate (cause other to reroll any roll as immed action)
Spin Destiny (can apply spin to saves or skill checks)
Deny Fate (autostabilize 1/day)
Resist Fate (reroll any 1 roll /day for self)

Oracle Domain Access
Scry Bonus (+1 DC)
Prescient Sense (Evasion)
Trap Sense +3
Divination Enhancement
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Immune to Surprise

Feats
1 Education
1 Eschew Materials
3 Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion
6 Ascetic Mage
9 Empower Spell
12 Quicken Spell
15 
18 Extra Spell: Greater Teleport

Skills 

Profession (Gambler) (Wis) +6 (5 ranks + 1 Wis)


Spell Slots (Caster level: 19, base DC = 16)
0 6/6, 1 - 8/8, 2 - 8/8, 3 - 8/8, 4 - 8/8, 5 - 6/6, 6 - 4/4

Known
0 Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Light, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation
1 Shield, Magic Missile, True Casting, Mage Armor, Fists of Stone
2 Scorching Ray, Baleful Transposition, Glitterdust, Darkvision, Dimension Hop
3 Spellcaster's Bane, Divination, Dragonskin, ?
4 Heart of Earth, Ennervation, Orb of Force, Voice of the Dragon
5 Telekinesis, Greater Blink, ?, Commune
6 Greater Heroism, Dream Casting, Disintegrate
7 Spell Turning, Elemental Body, Radiant Assault, Greater Teleport
8 Moment of Precience, Polymorph Any Object, Greater Arcane Fusion
9 Reaving Dispel, Summon Monster IX

Equipment

Money: 

Weapon
Unarmed, +5 to hit, 1d6-1 dmg

Armor
Noble's Clothing, 75

Gear



-------------------[/sblock]


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## Walking Dad (May 25, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> How's that?



Fear vs Charm
Mindless vs Mindcontrol
Creepy vs charming


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## Dire Lemming (May 26, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Fear vs Charm
> Mindless vs Mindcontrol
> Creepy vs charming




.....Ok....

So, anyone got some good non-CRB spells to suggest for a twentieth level Beguiler to get with Advanced Learning?


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## Shayuri (May 26, 2008)

If you have a level of Mindbender, I suggest Greater Shadow Evocation.


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## Dire Lemming (May 26, 2008)

Dunno what either of those are.


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## Shayuri (May 26, 2008)

Mindbender is a PrC in Complete Arcane. A 1 level dip is almost mandatory for all Beguilers. 

Greater Shadow Evocation is...well, it's a core spell. It's in the SRD.


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## Dire Lemming (May 26, 2008)

Hey, I said non-core spells. 

Is multiclassing really essential?  Bypassing SR seems like it would be really useful.  That and I really don't like the complication involved.

Hey, I just thought of something.  Are we allowed to bring along cohorts and/or followers, or summon them later?


----------



## Graybeard (May 26, 2008)

What about spells that require a material component such as a gem worth X gold pieces? Since we are not supposed to have any wealth, is something like this okay?


----------



## Shayuri (May 26, 2008)

I think he outlawed Leadership...

Sorry, I missed the non-core stipulation. 

I am also curious about spell foci, be they with stated value or not.

Dire, it's not really required to multiclass, but you gain a lot. Telepathic communication is REALLY nice for beguilers, because you can use it to issue silent, untraceable orders and communications with enchanted subjects, and it works with any being who has language.

Also, noteably, it lets you select Advanced Learning from a spell level higher, starting from the point you take the PrC level.

This is true of any PrC level that advances your spellcasting caster level.

It works like this: Beguiler gets Advanced learning at, say, level 15. Normally that lets you select a 7th level spell, because you can't cast 8th level until level 16. BUT. If your caster level is 16 when your Beguiler level is 15...then you can select an 8th level spell with that Advanced Learning.

Which is nice.

But you have to decide if it's worth delaying the capstone Beguiler power by 1 level. (Hint - It is.)


----------



## Graybeard (May 26, 2008)

Another question. What about age categories? Could I make an older character and take the physical stat penalties and the mental stat increases?


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## Dire Lemming (May 26, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> I think he outlawed Leadership...
> 
> Sorry, I missed the non-core stipulation.
> 
> ...




Man!  No leadership?!  Who's going to hang on my character's arms and generally make him look like a rapper?!

Oh well, that build sounds keen, or mew or something!  Now I just need to find this Prestige Class.


----------



## Albedo (May 26, 2008)

Phew, I got alot of catching up to do it seems. Life can run ya down some times. *Cracks Knuckles*. Lets be at it.

All: First off, I'm just gonna disallow Unearthed Arcana entirely. No more questions about it please.

KerlanRayne: 
Petal Fey is fine, Elven spell lore will only effect the listed spells, and you can use the weapon crafting templates.

Walking Dad: No generic questions on allowed sources please. If you want a specific alternate class feature, ask specifically. Dread Necromancer is fine.

Dire Lemming: If you use the SRD to make a character, you will be mostly right, but simply put I don't like alot of its rulings and won't use them, so if you do use it, try and verify your character as soon as you can with actual books.

Graybeard: There is no imbue summoning feat in the PHBII. Find me a source and a page number and we will talk. Yes, you can pick older age catagorys.

Jemal: No, knowledge histery won't give you a synergy bonus to Lore.

Shayuri: You guys can have any focus/material components you want, as long as they are non-magical. The only gear stipulation is that you have to be able to carry all that you own.

FYI: Any gear you start with will be considered worthless to all merchants and other people in the region. It is a control put on the realm by the masters of the school to keep smugling to a minimum.

Did I miss anything???


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## Dire Lemming (May 26, 2008)

Yes, I asked how I was supposed to look like a rapper without the leadership feat to allow me to have a bunch of Succubus followers and a Cornugon cohort.  

Man, a level twenty arcane caster without a single demonic servant...  You know, I could be scarred for life with this being my first level 20 character.


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## Walking Dad (May 26, 2008)

Albedo said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Walking Dad: No generic questions on allowed sources please. If you want a specific alternate class feature, ask specifically. Dread Necromancer is fine.
> ...



If I can get the DN, I don't need the above class features.

Question: Can I use the warmage alternative class feature for my DN (Allows advanced learning from other schools, but reduced spell level)?


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## Dire Lemming (May 26, 2008)

Hey, I got a question that's been bugging me.  Why the heck do Monks get Togues as a special class ability and no other class does?  I mean, they're a combat class, they have Diplomacy as a class skill but they're not going to be any good at it if they're any good at fighting.  So, you know, what the hell?

Also, Shayuri, how exactly should I set up this character to maximize the benefits of my multiclassing?  Or does it matter?


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## Walking Dad (May 26, 2008)

Are these feats ok?

Feats:

1 Mother Cyst (Liber Mortis 28)
3 Eschew Materials
6 Imp. Turn Resistance
9 Sickening Grasp (Complete Mage 46)
12 Rapid Metamagic
15 Quicken Spell
18 Craft Contingent Spell


If we cannot agree over a DN epic progression, are these Prestige Classes ok?
FateSpinner (Comp Arcane 37)
Acolyte of the Skin (Comp Arcane 19)


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## Shayuri (May 26, 2008)

Dire, we suggest taking the PrC level as early as possible, to maximize the rewards in the Advanced Learning. A beguiler can easily qualify for Mindbender at level 5, letting you take 1 level in it for your 6th level. Then return to beguiler levels for the remainder of your career. This means your 7th level Advanced Learning can be a 4rth level spell, and your 11th level Advanced Learning can be a 6th level spell...in addition to the benefits already discussed for the 15th level one. 

There aren't really many build requirements for a mindbender/beguiler. The two classes already have very similar roles and foci. Just remember you can't be Good. Neutral, yes, but not good.

I have a feeling that won't be a deal breaker for ya. 

You might check Races of Destiny and/or other supplements to see if there's any special feats available to characters with telepathy. I can't recall offhand if there are, but there might be.

--

As for monks, it's a holdover from 2nd Ed, I believe. Monks are a hybridized class, really. Combat, yes, but not PURE combat. I think the idea is that a monk, a high level monk, is transcendent. As they grow closer to what is essentially a sort of Taoistic perfection, the limits they once had drop away. Obviously they can't acquire all the abilities that are ascribed to such masters, short of a divine template, but things like the etherealness and ability to understand and be understood by all are relatively "cheap" gamewise by that level, and fit the theme of an ascended master on Earth.


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## Walking Dad (May 26, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> ...
> You might check Races of Destiny and/or other supplements to see if there's any special feats available to characters with telepathy. I can't recall offhand if there are, but there might be. .



There is _Mindsight i_n Lords of Madness.


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## Graybeard (May 26, 2008)

I changed my mind on the Imbued Summoning feat anyway. It was from Complete Divine. It allowed you to cast a buff spell (like invis) before you cast a summoning spell and it would affect the creature summoned.

Thanks


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## Dire Lemming (May 26, 2008)

Thanks guys, or guy, and girl, but the reason I was asking for non-CRB suggestions is that I only have the CRBs, and I can't even find my monster manual anymore.  I also don't have them with me at the moment.  So yeah, I can't really look this stuff except on crystal keep, and it's fairly confusing.  I've worked out the Beguiler class ok since I really liked it when I borrowed PHB2 from the library, but I'm not too sure about the rest.  If you could give me a basic description of what stuff does when you suggest it that would be great.  That way I could decide whether I liked the idea before I search crystal keep for it.

Thanks.

EDIT: Hey, do you think it's worth playing an Aasimar for the charisma bonus and whatnot or should I play a race without a level adjustment so I can still have 20 class levels?


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## Jemal (May 27, 2008)

> EDIT: Hey, do you think it's worth playing an Aasimar for the charisma bonus and whatnot or should I play a race without a level adjustment so I can still have 20 class levels?



To quote the 10 Commandements of Character Optimization: 
#1: THOU SHALT NOT LOOSE CASTER LEVEL.
#5: THOU SHALT NOT LOOSE CASTER LEVEL.  Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice.
Let it be known that exceptions may been made if thou hath achieved maximum potential in thy class.)

Keeping said comandements in mind, I have revised my character: 
[sblock=Elzmyr, Loremaster of the Wild magic]
Elzmyr (pronounced L's-meer)
Human Sorc6/Wild Mage1/Loremaster8/Archmage5
AL: CG  HT: 5'11" WT: 150 Hair: Red with Silver Highlights  Eyes: Sea-green

STR: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
DEX: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
CON: 11 (+0) [3 Points]
INT: 14 (+2) [6 Points]
WIS: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
CHA: 22 (+6) [13 Points + 5 level]

HP:  (20d4)  AC: 12 (10 base +2 dex)
Saves: 
FORT: +7 (5 base +2 Misc)  
REF: +9 (5 base +2 dex +2 Misc) 
WILL: +15 (15 base)
Init: +2 (2 dex)
Bab: 9

Skills(Total/Ranks):[131 Points, Max rank 23] 
Bluff(+16/10), Concentration(+20/20), Craft[Weaponsmithing, Stoneworking](+10/8), Diplomacy(+35/23), Know:Arcana(+38/23), Know:Nobility/Royalty(+12/10), Spellcraft(+32/23), Sense Motive(+5/5{1cc}), Use Magic Device(+11/1), 3 more
cc=CrossClass, (Sense motive has 4 ranks from Loremaster Secret)

Feats: [8]  Magical Aptitude, Spell Focus(Transmutation, Evocation), Skill Focus(Know:Arcana), Eschew Materials, Empower Spell, Quicken Spell, Practiced Spellcaster(sorc)

Bonus Feats/Class Features: Metamagic Specialist(Instead of Familiar), 4 ranks of Sense Motive(Loremaster Secret), +2 Fort/Reflex saves(Loremaster Secret), Skill Focus: Spellcraft(Loremaster Secret), Bonus Languages(Celestial, X), Lore(+10), Greater Lore(Identify), Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Elements, Spell PowerX3

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Celestial, X

Spellcasting (CL: 20+1d6[Min23])
Level (Per day) - Known - List
Cantrip (6) - 9 - Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, 
1st (8) - 5 - Feather Fall, Shield, Magic Missile, Mage Armour
2nd (8) - 5 - Scorching Ray
3rd (7) - 4 - Lightning Bolt, Elzmyr's Sight (Arcane Sight)
4th (7) - 4 - Stone Shape
5th (7) - 4 - 
6th (7) - 4 - 
7th (6) - 3 - Greater Teleport, Greater Scrying
8th (6) - 3 - Polymorph Any Object, Elzmyr's Energy Ray(Polar Ray)
9th (6) - 2 - Elzmyr's Disjunction, Meteor Swarm

Note: Many of Elzmyr's Spells are called 'Elzmyr's X', as one of his theory's is that these spells were actually created by his ancestor. (Example, instead of 'Mordenkainen's Disjunction', he calls it 'Elzmyr's Disjunction')
[/sblock]


----------



## Dire Lemming (May 27, 2008)

Hey Albe, can you wave the alignment restriction on the mind bender prestige class?  Pretty please?  It doesn't seem right that a class dedicated to avoiding conflict would not be allowed to be good while many classes dedicated solely to causing violence, death and destruction would be.


----------



## Jemal (May 27, 2008)

The reasoning behind it is that forcefulling compelling someone to act against their nature (Mind Control) goes against what GOOD stands for in D&D terms.
It's also for balance reasons.  Considering the dirt-cheap requirements on the class (Charm person, 4 ranks in a few skills, and CL5), and it's first level power (+2 fort/will, spellcasting, and telepathy @ will) the 'non-good' requirement is the only reason EVERY one of my spellcasters doesn't have it.

That having been said, if Albedo does switch it, I'll gladly change my lvl of Wild Mage to a lvl of MindBender.  That's what I'd intended earlier, but forgot about the nongood requirement.


----------



## Walking Dad (May 27, 2008)

I think enchantment and mindcontrol is the same as "avoiding conflict". If you start such ruling, where to end.

Best example: Deathwatch is an evil spell.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathwatch.htm


----------



## Dire Lemming (May 27, 2008)

Yeah, that one is even stupider.  Oh no, my healer can't tell who most needs their help because that would be _evil_!

Then again D&D is full of really stupid rules.


----------



## Shayuri (May 27, 2008)

Well...in fairness, the Mindbender class is one in which, if you follow it to the end, you wind up with permanent dominated slaves...which is fairly not-good. 

Of course, Thrallherd is similar, and I don't think it has an alignment restriction. 

*shrug*


----------



## Shayuri (May 27, 2008)

Is this game featuring a narrative style similar to the other epic game?


----------



## Halford (May 27, 2008)

OOC: Well if there is still room I'd like to hop in with my Rogue, Bard, Lyric Thaumaturge, Druid, Ur-Priest, Mystic Theurge, Sublime Chord, Fochlucan Lyrist.  It should all be allowed all being from Completes, though I did want to check if Completes included the newer ones such as Mage, Scoundrel, and Champion.  I should certainly meet the requirements since I have 9th level Arcane and Divine spells.

And on a side note, good grief Fochlucan Lyrist is a pain to qualify for!


----------



## Albedo (May 28, 2008)

Halford: Welcome aboard. 

Shayuri: This campaign will be normal D&D rather than narrative.

Dire Lemming: Sadly, I won't be waving alignment restrictions for this campaign.

Walking Dad: I'm saying no to the mother cyst feat, and craft spell contingency. Everything else you asked for there is fine. I'll deal with epic progressions at a later date.


----------



## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Hm, does that class lose it's abilities if the character shifts alignment?  It'd be reasonable for a twentieth level character to be a different alignment than they were at fifth right?


----------



## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

EDIT: Weird, time-delayed double post that happened instead of my original edit *L*


----------



## Halford (May 28, 2008)

OOC: Thanks Albedo, without further ado here's Halford's entry...

	“My esteemed colleagues perhaps you would permit me to take the stage next?  I am Halford a humble musician who happens to have picked up a few insignificant tricks over the years.”  The voice is silken, deep, melodious, and comes from an extremely handsome clean shaven man whose manner of dress is more in keeping with a noble than a mage.  The observant would also note that he wore a chainshirt beneath his finery and that a shield was strapped across his back.

[Sblock=OOC] Diplomacy check 66 (33 skill mod., + 12 Improvisation (caster level was 24), + 15 Divine Insight).  Bluff check, on a few insignificant tricks, 69 (25 skill mod., 12 Improvisation, 30 Glibness).[/Sblock]

	So saying Halford strides confidently from the ranks of his fellows, intoning a spell as he does so, flashing a dazzling white toothed smile to his assembled peers.  With that he bows doffing his wide brimmed blue hat, complete with peacock feather set at a suitably rakish angle, using the movement to pull free a finely crafted lute from his back and revealing a mane of luxurious black hair shot through with the faintest shimmers of silver.

[Sblock=OOC] DC 16 Spellcraft reveals this to be the Divine Spell Divine Insight, which gives an insight bonus on the next skill use.[/Sblock]

	“I call this piece clash of the Titans.” The musician says with a smile as his fingers begin to caress the lute strings.  An irresistible toe tapping melody flows forth lifting the spirits of all who hear it evoking pleasant memories past and poignant, bringing forth joy, loneliness, and a rapturous love of life.

[Sblock=OOC] Perform String Instruments 69 (29 skill mod., 12 Improvisation, 15 Divine Insight).[/Sblock]

	Halford plays for a minute before stopping for a split second, allowing the notes to linger heavily in the air as he does so and chants a spell.

[Sblock=OOC] DC 19 Spellcraft reveals this to be the Arcane spell Mirage Arcana.[/Sblock]

	Suddenly the venue changes to a vast amphitheater composed exclusively of soaring impossible arches of the finest white marble, and at the very center of this awe inspiring edifice sits a golden stage emitting a warm glow which illuminates the musician in its midst.  Again he plays the music now evoking majesty and power and after another minute he again intones a spell.  A Firestorm engulfs the entirety of the arena, save for those areas which contain spectators and all feel the roiling heat.

[Sblock=OOC] DC 23 Spellcraft reveals this to be the Divine Spell Firestorm.[/Sblock]

	 As the flames dissipate the musician is revealed unharmed again chanting, and suddenly he is in a different position without visibly moving mounted atop a Colossal Scorpion easily 80ft. Long and flanked by a vast Gargantuan elemental composed entirely of flame.

[Sblock=OOC] DC 24 Spellcraft reveals this to be the Arcane Spell Timestop.  He has Energy Immunity Fire precast.  In the minimum time available Halford casts a quickened Sonorous Hum then Summon Elemental Monolith followed by Giant Vermin commanding the Colossal Scorpion to stop and then using his preexisting Overland Flight to fly onto the creatures back.  In the likely event that he has any rounds remaining he recasts Divine Insight and then Improvisation.[/Sblock]
	Again the musician begins to play now evoking danger and excitement with every strum of the lute.  Slowly he rises from the Scorpions back until he is suspended 100ft. in the air.  “Attack!” he cries gesturing towards the Elemental Monolith and as one the two great creatures surge forward into combat with one another the great crash of their impact reverberating throughout the illusionary amphitheater.
[Sblock=OOC]
 Perform String Instruments 62 again – see above.  Halford is maintaining concentration upon the Elemental Monolith through Sonorous Hum and so is free to continue playing.[/Sblock]

	The two titanic opponents clash, the music seeming to follow every thrust and complement the sounds of battle.  The combat continues for around a minute with the Scorpion despite its larger size receiving the worst of things the scent of its smouldering meat spreading across the arena.  Then the music reaches a crescendo and suddenly the elemental is gone and the musician sinks down towards the Scorpion calling “Stop” as he does so.  Again mounted upon the creatures back Halford bring the song to a close chants a spell and touches the great beast its wounds closing in an instant.
[Sblock=OOC]
 DC 21 Spellcraft reveals this to be the Divine Spell Heal.  Halford simply stopped concentrating through Sonorous Hum upon the Elemental Monolith.[/Sblock]

	With that the musician took a  bow, again doffing his hat, dismissed the spell upon the Scorpion, moving down to place the now inch long thing into a specially prepared belt pouch.  He then cast a spell and disappeared with a flourish reappearing amidst his fellows wearing a rakish smile as he awaited further demonstrations of worth.

[Sblock=OOC] DC 22 Spellcraft reveals this to be the Arcane Spell Greater Teleport, he has Dimension Door, but is trying to show off.[/Sblock]


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

I've always been under the impression that you loose all benefits of a Prestige classes at any time when you no longer meet the requirements for that class, but I've never actually seen that STATED anywhere (Unless it was a sage advice/ask wizards ruling).  I know base classes with alignment restriction state whether or not you loose benefits for changing alignments, but not prestige classes, which lends more weight to the "if you don't meet the requirements you loose the abilities".

Take for example Assassin and Blackguard.  Both have the "Evil" Requirement.  If you can change alignments from another prestige class, why not them?  Why can't you be playing a LG Blackguard/Assassin and just say you changed alignments?  

Another example : The 'heroics' feat from spell compendium gives you a bonus Fighter feat for a short time.  Why couldn't you use it to meet the requirements for a class, then keep the class after the spell runs out?  If such were the case, any class with a feat that can be obtained as a bonus fighter feat would just replace that requirement with "able to cast heroics or hire somebody to cast it for you"

.. just sayin. While it's reasonable to assume that a high level character has changed alignments along his path (Heck, just look at my 'bodin' character from Albedo's other campaign.. Vile evil turned Exalted Good, but he doesn't break any rules), he would still suffer the consequences of his actions.

As for Deathwatch being evil - Have you read the spell description?  It's basically designed to let evil casters know how easy their prey will be to finish off.  The fact that some healers have used it to aid THAT function is a great example of adapting a spell to a nonstandard application, but doesn't change the original intent of the spell.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

Halford - I find that doing that many OOC's amidst the actual post makes it hard to read, and harder still to enjoy.  Perhaps using Sblocks or compiling all the ooc info at the end of the post would be a good idea?

Also, www.invisiblecastle.com is great for showing your rolls, instead of having to make the DM do all the rolling for you. 

EDIT: Just realized something else.. Glibness doesn't add to all bluff checks, just those "made to convince another of the truth of your words. (This bonus doesn'tapply to other uses of the bluff skill)" (PHB, 236).  You also may wish to include IC that he's doing some tricks, instead of just posting the stat ooc.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Thanks for the input Jemal, to be honest I have never really done any of those things before so I will try to figure them out and edit accordingly.

Okay, I think I have it, thanks again Jemal - much appreciated.

As to the use of Glibness I am aware of that and as far as I am concerned he is using it to convince others of the truth of his words, because Halford is certainly capable of more than "a few insignificant tricks."

I am not entirely sure what you mean about the tricks to be honest Jemal - its late so forgive me for being a trifle slow.  Do you mean simply say the arena fills with fire and not bother including the note that it is a Firestorm, etc.?


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

NP.. btw, post above edited to include rule insight.

On the plus side, the IC stuff itself is great, IMO. 

EDIT: OH, and Sblocks are as such: 
{Sblock=OOC}
STUFF
{/Sblock}

Replace the{ and } with [ and ] and you get: 
[sblock=ooc]
Stuff
[/sblock]


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Crap, I was going to work on my character now but Crystal Keep is down so I have no access to the Mindbender...

Um, those weird pseudo IC posts you've all been doing.  Is that something Albedo told us to do and I simply don't remember it or are you guys just having fun?  Because if they expect a beguiler to impress them with overt displays of magical flashyness they're going to be somewhat disappointed.  At least the beguiler's overt flashyness is rather limited.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

We've just been having fun while waiting, but I'm pretty sure Albedo Did want us to impress these guys (Hence the opening post ending with them sayign "Impress us"...).  I doubt it has to be an 'overt display of magical flashiness', but you ARE trying to enroll in a powerful mages school to learn Epic Magic, so I think they're probably hoping for a magical response of some sort (A kinda "show us your stuff" deal).

Whadaya need from Mindbender? I've got the book right beside me.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

The first level and all applicable stats and abilities is all I actually need.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

No Prob
[sblock=Mindbender lvl 1]
Requirements: 
Align: Nongood, 
Skills: Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense motive (4 ranks each)
Special: Ability to cast Charm person, Arcane Caster Level 5
LVL 1: BAB 0, +2 Fort/Will saves, +1 lvl of existing arcane spellcasting, 2+int mod skills [Class skills: Bluff, concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge(ALL), Profession, Sense Motive, Spellcraft].  Special: Telepathy (ability to communicate telepathically with any creature within 100' that has a language)
[/sblock]


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Thanks.  What does "+1 lvl of existing arcane spellcasting" mean though?


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Dire Lemming, taking a quick look at the Beguiler spell list you seem to have some excellent Illusion spells available to you as things like Timestop and Scintillatinmg pattern would impress me...  

Taking any of the Shadow evocation with advanced learning will also open up whole new worlds of impressivness enabling you to replicate evocations, etc.

+1 level of Arcane spellcastng class simply means that you gain spell slots and spells known as per the cass you are using to enter, in your case Beguiler, sometimes you can have more than one viable class maybe Wizard and Sorcerer in which case you select only one to advance.  You do not gain any special abilities, etc., from the class you are advancing though just the spells.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

DL - +1 lvl of existing arcane spellcasting is the same as for any prestige class that continues caster progression.  You gain the spellcasting as though your 'arcane caster level' in whatever class grants you arcane casting were one higher. (Same as for Archmage, Loremaster, etc)

Halford - Do you have a partial character sheet yet?  I'm interested in seeing your work up for this concept, it sounds like some fun multiclassing, and I'd like to see how it works.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> Dire Lemming, taking a quick look at the Beguiler spell list you seem to have some excellent Illusion spells available to you as things like Timestop and Scintillatinmg pattern would impress me...
> 
> Taking any of the Shadow evocation with advanced learning will also open up whole new worlds of impressivness enabling you to replicate evocations, etc.
> 
> +1 level of Arcane spellcastng class simply means that you gain spell slots and spells known as per the cass you are using to enter, in your case Beguiler, sometimes you can have more than one viable class maybe Wizard and Sorcerer in which case you select only one to advance.  You do not gain any special abilities, etc., from the class you are advancing though just the spells.




Ah, I missed Timestop... and actually I have no idea what scintillating pattern does.  This is the first time I've ever made such a high level character, nevermind one with spells.  So It's all very confusing to me.


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## Walking Dad (May 28, 2008)

DN's doesn't get overtly impressing spells...

with this Ur- Priest "multi-class monster" around I'm thinking about taking a step back and built something more optimised...

(Hm, Necromancer, Ur-Priest, True Necromancer?
or Warlock 4, Cleric 1, Urpriest 2, Eldritch Disciple 10, Mystic Theurge 3)
(Or warlock 5 if you allow the education feat)

Are these classes are fine, too?


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Yeah sure, its very detailed because it was an arduous task meeting the requirements.  For example I needed to take an essentially superfluous level of Druid in order to get speak druidic to qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist.

[Sblock]
Halford Daern

	Human: Middle aged 43

	Description: An extremely handsome man with the first streaks of gray shooting through a mane of black hair and piercing green eyes.  He is exceptionally well dressed, wearing robes more suited to a noble than a mage, and carries himself with tremendous self assurance oozing charisma from every pore.

	Stats: Str 8 (1) Dex 10 (3) Con 12(5) Int 14(5) Wis 19(8 + 3 from levels) Cha 19(10 + 2 from levels)

	HD: 119 (8d6 + 2d8 + 2d4 + 7d10 + 26)

1.Rogue 1st: Iron Will, Spell Focus Evil
2.Bard 1st:
3.Bard 2nd Melodic Casting
4.Bard 3rd 
5.Bard 4th
6.Rogue 2nd Extra Music
7.Lyric Thaumaturge 1st Bard 5th 
8.Druid 1st
9.Ur-Priest 1st Craft Wonderous Item
10.Mystic Theurge 1st Bard 6th Ur-Priest 2nd
11.Mystic Theurge 1st Bard 7th Ur-Priest 3nd
12.Sublime Chord 1st Practiced Spellcaster Bard
13.Sublime Chord 2nd 
14.Fochlucan Lyrist SC 3rd Ur-Priest 4th 
15.Fochlucan Lyrist SC 4th Ur-Priest 5th Rapid Metamagic
16.Fochlucan Lyrist SC 5th Ur-Priest 6th 
17.Fochlucan Lyrist SC 6th Ur-Priest 7th  
18.Fochlucan Lyrist SC 7th Ur-Priest 8th Quicken Spell
19.Fochlucan Lyrist SC 8th Ur-Priest 9th 
20.Fochlucan Lyrist SC 9th Ur-Priest 10th 


Base Attack Bonus
1.0
2.0
3.1
4.2
5.3
6.4
7.4
8.4
9.4
10.4
11.5
12.5
13.6
14.7
15.8
16.9
17.10
18.11
19.12
20.13

Saves
1.1/2/6
2.1/4/8
3.1/5/9
4.2/5/9
5.2/6/10
6.2/7/10
7.2/9/12
8.4/9/14
9.4/9/16
10.4/9/18
11.4/9/19
12.4/9/21
13.4/9/22
14.4/11/24
15.4/12/25
16.5/12/25
17.5/13/26
18.5/13/26
19.6/14/27
20.6/14/27

Skill Points & Ranks

1.44 Bluff, Dec Script, Dip, Gath. Info, Lis, Per S, Per Si, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Spot, Tum
2.53 Spellcraft 5, Knowledge Arcana 4
3.62 Spellcraft 6, Bluff 6, K. Arcana 5, Per S 6, K. Nature 3
4.71 K. Planes 6, K. Religion 3
5.80 K. Arcana 6, K. Religion 7, Per S 8, K. Nature 4
6.91 Listen 9, Slight of Hand 7, Gather Info 7
7.98 Spellcraft 10, Per S 9, K. Arcana 7, K. Religion 8
8.105 Listen 11, Pro. Astrologer 5
9.110 Listen 12(x 2 cost as CC), K. Arcana 8
10.115 K.Arcana 11, Listen 13(x 2 cost as CC)
11.120 K. Arcana 13, Pro. Astrologer 6, Spellcraft 12
12.127 K. Nature 6, Decipher Script 5, Per S 13
13.134 K. Nature 7, Decipher Script 7, Diplomacy 7
14.143 Per S 17, Bluff 11
15.152 Per S 18, Bluff 18, Spellcraft 13
16.161 Per S 19, Bluff 19, Spellcraft 19, Sense Motive 5
17.170 Per S 20, Bluff 20, Spellcraft 20, Diplomacy 13
18.179 Per S 21, Spellcraft 21, Diplomacy 20
19.188 Per S 22, Spellcraft 22, Diplomacy 22, K. Nobility 3 = 2 points spent on False Theurgy
20.197 Per S 23, Bluff 21, Spellcraft 23, Diplomacy 23, K. Nobility 5, Listen 15, Sense Motive 5

Skill Modifiers

Bluff 25 (21 ranks, 4 Cha Mod.)
Decipher Script 9 (7 ranks, 2 Int Mod.)
Diplomacy 33 (23 ranks, 4 Cha Mod, 6 Synergy Bonus Bluff, Sense Motive, K. Nobility)
Gather Information 11 (7 ranks, Cha Mod. 4)
K. Arcana 17 (13 ranks, 2 Int Mod., 2 Synergy Bonus Spellcraft)
K. Nature 9 (7 ranks, 2 Int Mod.)
K. Nobility 7 (5 ranks, 2 Int Mod.)
K. Religion 10 (8 ranks, 2 Int Mod.)
K. Planes 8 (6 ranks, 2 Int Mod.)
Listen 19 (15 ranks, 4 Wis Mod.)
Perform Strings 29 (23 ranks, 4 Cha Mod., 2 MW Instrument)
Perform Sing 8 (4 ranks, 4 Cha Mod.)
Profession Astrologer 10 (6 ranks, 4 Wis Mod.)
Sense Motive 9 (5 ranks, 4 Wis Mod.)
Sleight of Hand 8 (7 ranks, -1 Dex Mod., 2 Synergy Bonus Bluff)
Spot 8 (4 ranks, 4 Wis Mod.)
Tumble 3 (4 ranks, -1 Dex Mod.)

Skill Tricks

	False Theurgy (Taken at 19th level): Page 86 of Complete Scoundrel.

Class Variants

	Bard: Healing Hymn (Replaces Fascinate ability): Page 47 of Complete Champion

Bard Spells Known

1st Improvisation, Inspirational Boost, Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat Swift,
2nd Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Detect Thoughts, Sonorous Hum
3rd Glibness, Phantom Steed

Sublime Chord Spells Known

4th Dimension Door, Invisibility Greater, Ruin Delver's Fortune, Ray Deflection
5th Dispel Magic Greater, Mirage Arcana, Overland Flight, Telekenisis
6th Otto's Irresistable Dance, Shout Greater, Anticipate Teleportation Greater, Disintegrate
7th Spell Turning, Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion, Teleport Greater
8th Maze, Horrid Wilting
9th Timestop

Arcane Spellslots

1st 5 (3 Bard, 1 Cha Bonus, 1 Lyric Thaumaturge)
2nd 4 (2 Bard, 1 Cha Bonus, 1 Lyric Thaumaturge)
3rd 1 (Cha Bonus)
4th 4 (Sublime Chord)
5th 4 (Sublime Chord)
6th 4 (Sublime Chord)
7th 3 (Sublime Chord)
8th 2 (Sublime Chord)
9th 1 (Sublime Chord)

Ur-Priest Spells Prepared

0th Detect Magic x 3, Create Water, Cure Minor, Light
1st Divine Favor, Sign x 2, Pro. Good, Shield of Faith x 2
2nd Divine Insight x 2, Cure Moderate Wounds x 4
3rd Invisibility Purge, Cure Serious Wounds x 2, Magic Vestment x 2
4th Giant Vermin x 2, Restoration, Divine Power
5th True Seeing, Break Enchantment, Quickened Divine Favor
6th Resistance Superior, Energy Immunity Fire, Heal, Quickened Divine Insight
7th Destruction, Quickened Shield of Warding, Quickened Sonorous Hum
8th Spell Immunity Greater, Firestorm
9th Summon Elemental Monolith

Equipment

Chainshirt MW
Platinum and Diamond Hourglass (Focus for Anticipate Teleportation Greater)
All Focus Components for Spells, etc.
Lyre MW
Lute MW
Spell Component Pouch x 5
Selection of Holy Symbols for every god wooden
Heavy Steel Shield MW
Nobles Outfit x 5[/Sblock]

On a side note, can you guys tell me if I need to do anything other than make my rolls on Invisible Castle? I have not been saving them or anything is this done automatically? I entered all the info such as character and campaign name, do I need to do anything else?


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

I sincerely hate it when people do that.  Soon as one player proposes a character concept that someone thinks is 'overpowered', people start to either quit or 'Reoptimize' their character.

Stick to your guns.  If your concept isn't good enough to play now, then why did you want to try it in the first place?  This is my main problem with ENWorld, everybody's too worried about how their character stacks up against everybody elses.  

Sorry for that rant, it's just a very big pet peeve, and I've yet to sign up for a campaign above ~ 12th lvl where it hasn't happened.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Well, I'm terrible at putting together killer builds and whatnot.  I just want cool tools to roleplay with and enough survivability to keep doing it.

I suppose my build sounds terrible, but I've got no idea how I'd improve it.  All I really care about is the character not sucking, and being fun to play.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

I've got another question.

It says that it requires 4 ranks in intimidate, but since intimidate is for some reason a cross class skill for a beguiler does that mean I have to put 8 skill points into it?


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

To be honest guys as long as you have 9th level spell castng your character is going to be a power house.  Play at this level is usually dictated by who wins Initiative and careful spell selection than anything else.

I am also under the impression that we will be working together rather than against each other, and even in the worst case scenario death is not permanent if caused by magic.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Sure, we'll be working together against Balors... :\

That's one thing I'm concerned about.  Some of these characters are combat focussed while others are significantly less so... So, are both groups going to get to do stuff?

Anyone got any non-CRB feats to suggest for me?


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

'not sucking' is more about HOW you play than WHAT you play.  A straight 20th lvl sorceror 'doesn't suck'.  The sucker's got 9th level spells!!  It just doesn't have as many extra abilities as someone with prestige classes.  It DOES however, have it's own benefits.. It isn't spending feats on meeting requirements, meaning it has more feats to spend on other things.  One of my alternate character concepts was a straight 20 Silverbrow human(Dragonblooded) sorc with a crapload of metamagic and the practical metamagic feat (Each time you take it, pick a metamagic feat you know and reduce it's lvl adjustment by 1).

As for optimization...

There are Three types of "killer builds"
#1 - The type made by people because they want to make a 'killer build'.  These almost always fail in one aspect (Usually roleplaying/purpose, they exist soley to kill or be unkillable).
#2 - The kind that come out of picking a really cool concept that you think would be fun to play and then going "OK, now how do I make this happen in D&D?"  
#3 - you see a class/prestige class/Feat combo that you think could make for an interesting character, and then build everything else around that, starting with WHY it's cool.

Option 2 requires you to come up with your concept, then work out the rules.  Option 3 requires you to see something that catches your attention, then expand THAT into a concept, and add the remaining rules.
Option 1 is for when you just go "I wanna deal a gajillion damage and be invincimable", and then attempt to tack on a concept afterwards.


Personally, I love powerful characters.  Not because I'm worried about sucking in relation to other characters, but because the cool concepts almost always lend themselves easily to being powerful.
Wolverine, Elminster, Raistlin, Superman, Vegeta, Ichigo, Neo.. All cool concepts.  ALso all very powerful.
I can't think of many 'uncool' characters off the top of my head.. probably cuz they're not cool, and thus not easy to remember, but I think you get the point.

What is the point, you ask?  The point is simply this: Your goal should be to play a cool/interesting/amusing/deep/whatever character, not a 'powerful' character.  
IN more depth, this means that If you think your character won't be able to keep up, that doesn't mean he's too weak, and it doesn't mean other characters are too strong.  What it MEANS is that you obviously aren't quite as fond of the concept as you originally thought, b/c you're now finding yourself desiring more power rather than desiring to continue with the current concept.  If such is the case, then by all means abandon the concept, b/c it's probably something you wouldn't have enjoyed playing in ANY campaign, if it was unable to hold your attention when someone dangled the elusive 'killer build' nearby.


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## Jemal (May 28, 2008)

btw, I'd just like to say that all D&D characters are 'combat focused'.  It's the primary facet of the game, all the classes and 99% of the feats/spells revolve around it.   And yes, even that beguiler is a combatant...  Why do you think those enchantment spells have a "will save"? 

Just cause a character's PRIMARY purpose (at least Roleplaying/IC wise) isn't combat, doesn't mean they're a non-combatant.

My character for example is a showboat, a know-it-all 'college' styled character, and a transmuter.  But he's also a CL 23+ mage with access to 9th level spells.  Just because his primary reason for spellcasting isn't "I wanna go out and kill things", doesn't mean he can't.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Well Dire Lemming if you wait until 11th level you can take the Abjurant Champion Prestiege class from Complete Mage.

You need to be 11th in order to meet the BAB requirements, to take Combt Casting, and to take Dispel Magic as a spell (so you have a abjuration spell). Beguilers are proficient with rapiers and thus meet the at least one martial weapon requirement.  This class has a fighter hit die full BAB and Intimidate as a class skill, sadly it only goes for five levels, but its certainly worth considering.  Many of the abilities would be useless to a Beguiler, but you would be able to use Dispel Magic as a swift action, though sadly not greater dipel magic.

So you could take five level of that and then one of Mindbender, it also has full spell progression.

I'd also strongly consider taking everything you can get your hands on to increase your enchantment DCs both spell focus feats; maybe even the Fey Heritage line which for five feats will get you DR 5/cold iron, +1 to enchantment DCs and caster level for enchntment spells and numerous spell-like abilities including dimension door and Summon Nature's Ally 4 - which gives you healing power via Unicorns.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

I specifically said "less combat focussed" because I know that all D&D characters are combatants  The problem is that if there are allot of combat encounters in this game and very few non-combat encounters then the less combat focussed characters become ancillary, and it's not much fun being an ancillary hero, ask Aquaman.

I don't want to end up just standing back while the evokers torch everything.  I wanna use diplomacy to turn dangerous situations to my advantage and then use my mind effecting spells to subdue any remaining threats.  I mean, that's why I can't be good alignment right?

Thanks for the suggestion Halford but I don't want it to become too complicated.  I want to have the character excel in a certain area.  In this case avoiding having to directly fight.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

I can certainly understand that Dire Lemming.  Hopefully everyone can be accomodated and have fun, that being what its all about.

I really love my roleplay and enjoy the tactical challenge of combat, the two certainly need not be mutually excusive.  The intricacies and intrigues of a congregation of 20th level magic users certainly ought to provide plenty of fodder for both!


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Plus, tons of college hijinx!  Like the illusory Nymph in the shower!  And co-ed outhouses!


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

LOL, just wait until item creation starts and someone puts soverign glue in the outhouse...

Better still Giant Vermin has range so if there happened to be a bug in there...

9th level spellcasting opens up a whole array of practical joke possibilities.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

We can cast invisibility on the hot sorceress' clothing!  I can't wait! 

No wait, Greater Invisibility, that way it doesn't end when she attacks.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Just cast Veil and make other people look like whatever you want...  

Incidently I swapped out a feat, lowered my Ur-Priest caster level for Rapid Metamagic.  This would make the Scorpion Gargantuan rther than Colossal, but since I would have in this case enhanced the spell with Song of Arcane Power in that case it remains the same - I just expend a Bardic Music use.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> Just cast Veil and make other people look like whatever you want...
> 
> Incidently I swapped out a feat, lowered my Ur-Priest caster level for Rapid Metamagic.




Hm, that could be cool for a practical joke involving a goblin.

Besides, I have no ranks in disguise, so I couldn't make it look just like the hot sorceress.  Yes, best just to cloaked cast greater invisibility on myself, and then her clothes.

Ho wait! I just had this image of Naruto's Harem Jutsu, but with Veiled summoned creatures.

EDIT:... Hm, I sure hope I didn't anger Shayuri. :\


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## Shayuri (May 28, 2008)

Or you could just make pornographic illusions. 

Or summon succubi.

Speaking of hot sorceresses...

[sblock=Mei-Ying]Name: Mei-Ying
Race: Human
Class: Monk 1 / Sorc 5 / Fatespinner 4 / Divine Oracle 10
Align: Lawful Good
Exp: 

Desc: Mei-Ying is a tall, stately woman of slim build and exotic features  

Str  9 -1  1
Dex 14 +2  6
Con 14 +2  6
Int 10 +0  2
Wis 12 +1  4
CHa 22 +6 13

HP 19d4+8+40
Init +2
Move: 30'
BAB +9
Melee +8
Ranged +11
Grapple +12
AC 23 (10 + 2 dex + 1 monk + 6 cha, +4 armor), 19 touch, 23 flatfooted

Will +18
Reflex +9
Fort +9

Race Abilities
Bonus Feat
Bonus skill points

Class Abilities
Improved Unarmed Attack
Improved Grapple
Flurry of Blows

Metamagic Specialist (PHB2 Variant Class Ability)

Spin Fate (can apply spin to spell DC)
Fickle Finger of Fate (cause other to reroll any roll as immed action)
Spin Destiny (can apply spin to saves or skill checks)
Deny Fate (autostabilize 1/day)
Resist Fate (reroll any 1 roll /day for self)

Oracle Domain Access
Scry Bonus (+1 DC)
Prescient Sense (Evasion)
Trap Sense +3
Divination Enhancement
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Immune to Surprise

Feats
1 Education
1 Eschew Materials
3 Skill Focus: Knowledge Religion
6 Ascetic Mage
9 Empower Spell
12 Quicken Spell
15 
18 Extra Spell: Greater Teleport

Skills 

Profession (Gambler) (Wis) +6 (5 ranks + 1 Wis)


Spell Slots (Caster level: 19, base DC = 16)
0 6/6, 1 - 8/8, 2 - 8/8, 3 - 8/8, 4 - 8/8, 5 - 6/6, 6 - 4/4

Known
0 Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Light, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation
1 Shield, Magic Missile, True Casting, Mage Armor, Fists of Stone
2 Scorching Ray, Baleful Transposition, Glitterdust, Darkvision, Dimension Hop
3 Spellcaster's Bane, Divination, Dragonskin, ?
4 Heart of Earth, Ennervation, Orb of Force, Voice of the Dragon
5 Telekinesis, Greater Blink, ?, Commune
6 Greater Heroism, Dream Casting, Disintegrate
7 Spell Turning, Elemental Body, Radiant Assault, Greater Teleport
8 Moment of Precience, Polymorph Any Object, Greater Arcane Fusion
9 Reaving Dispel, Summon Monster IX

Equipment

Money: 

Weapon
Unarmed, +5 to hit, 1d6-1 dmg

Armor
Noble's Clothing, 75[/sblock]

Specifics to follow, but since I'm almost done picking spells, I thought I'd see what people thought. Right now, the main thing I'm considering is switching Greater Teleport with Greater Scrying (since I get a nice DC boost) and then using that last 5th level pick for reg'lar Teleport...

Suggestions? Also, that last feat slot...I have ideas, but I thought I'd see if people had notions about what would be especially cool.

Hopefully Mei won't tread on anyone's feet...I know Jemal has a Loremaster who also has plenty of divinations, but Mei's access to the Oracle Domain gives her spells otherwise hard to come by in an arcane campaign. I figured that  would help.

Edit - Hee! No. As a rule I do not anger easily, and will let you know if it occurs.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

What sorceress did you think I was talking about?

You may wish to consider protection against invisibility spells. 

Sadly, as a beguiler I cannot summon Succubi, but I could Daze, Hold, Charm, or Dominate one summoned by someone else.


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## Shayuri (May 28, 2008)

Hehe

A will save negates such spells, happily. 

Though I suppose you could tell her you were casting it on -her- and not just her clothes.

It'd probably work, since you're a beguiler.

But only once.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Hehe
> 
> A will save negates such spells, happily.
> 
> ...





Like I said earlier in the thread.  I'd use Greater Invisibility so that is wouldn't end when she attacked. 

Ooh, idea!  I can even use my Telepathy to spout sentences in a random gibberish combination of Draconic, Undercommon, and Sylvan directly into people's minds so that they think they're becoming a Xaositect!


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

How about Obtain Familiar Shayuri?  Personally I love Familiars for flavor purposes an if you have Use Magic device your familiar can use your ranks in it....  I have a Rat familiar, Furkiss, with one of my characters and the Crafting feats, many items I craft have the command word "squeak!" and are rat sized.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

That kicks so much ass!  I wish I had magic items for my pet rats.

Hey Shayuri, you should get a rat familiar!  Rats are so cute and furzzy and wiggerly noserd.  Also, if you're supposed to be Chinese or something it makes perfect sense since rats are a Zodiac animal.


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## Shayuri (May 28, 2008)

Hmm...I do not know...I could get another 6th level or lower spell with Extra Spell at that point...or Spell Penetration. Though I do like familiars.

Flying ones, usually.

Dire, as for invis, what I meant was that the subject of an Invisibility spell...or Greater Invisibility...can make a will save to negate it. Which means casting it on an unwilling target won't be automatically successful. But if you can convince said target to be willing, you're golden. That's all I meant.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

I know what you meant.  I think it's a good idea, though actually my character would be more mature than that.

He might use it on a lower level enemy in order to cause them to loose confidence.  Using it on a weapon should it it very difficult to wield.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Gotta love rats, Furkiss and his wand of Scorching Ray have vexed many a foe - especially since he has Improved Evasion and shares all my buff spells.  Plus since you can speak with him you get a huge amoun of RPing potential - just read Welcome to the Halamae on the story hour forum for oodles of familiar goodness, Weasels are also excellent familiars as this story hour demonstrates.


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## Graybeard (May 28, 2008)

This is going to turn out to be very interesting. I can't wait to see everyone's class combos and spell lists. I'm still tweaking my spell list and feats but my class combos are:

Sorc 6/Fatespinner 4/Wild Soul 10


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## Walking Dad (May 28, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> I sincerely hate it when people do that.  Soon as one player proposes a character concept that someone thinks is 'overpowered', people start to either quit or 'Reoptimize' their character.
> 
> Stick to your guns.  If your concept isn't good enough to play now, then why did you want to try it in the first place?  This is my main problem with ENWorld, everybody's too worried about how their character stacks up against everybody elses.
> 
> Sorry for that rant, it's just a very big pet peeve, and I've yet to sign up for a campaign above ~ 12th lvl where it hasn't happened.



Hey Jemal, please calm down.

Tell me some good spells of the DN list for impressing a group of mages (exclude the ones that make them sick or die    )
Sorry Halford, but every time I make a pure cool fluff character and somebody brings in something like your character (including drid levels, just to make the perequisites, I think the game will include more roll gaming that is cooll for the pure fluff character.

I'm not kicking away my old concept, but I'm still searchichng for a flavor- and powerfull character concept.

Albedo, what about the:

Arcane Hierophant from Races of the Wild
or
Shadowcrafter from Races of Stone?


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

No umbridge on my part Walking Dad.  I admit to being something of a tinkerer when it comes to character building always trying to tweak, etc.  I enjoy it, but I also enjoy roleplay and always have elaborate backstories for my characters - which are often inspired by the unsual build concepts.  

At the end of the day DnD is about having fun and part of that fun, for me at least, is building characters and seeing if I can produce something unique and interesting - and yes usualy pretty powerful.  I certainly hope that my characters do not lessen anyone elses fun, but if they fall within the rules of the game I find it hard to feel guilty aout making a powerful character.

As to Dread Necromancer spells to impress a crowd I would consider using planar binding to summon some hapless, but impressive Outsider and then having Summned Undead buffed with your higher level spells tear it apart a veritable horde of Mumys and Wights.

Both Beguiler and Dread Necromancer are somewhat problematic though because they are essentially super specialists lacking the full power of the chunkier spell lists; both classes have also been imo inadequetly catered for ater their initial release.  On the offchance that it is the Lichdom that appeals, it often is for my friends who wish to play Dread Necromancers though there are many things to recommend the class, you might want to consider the Walker in the Waste from Sandstorm (assuming its allowed). This gives you full access to either the Cleric or Druid spell list and some fantastic abilities including becoming a Dry-Lich, though you do loose two levels of spellcasting.

In regards to Halford's Druid level I will say that had the character been created organically I would have instead devoted a good deal of effort to learning Druidic, by say paying ex-Druids or torturing and dominating Druids - hey he's evil.  He would then have attempted to use his bluff skills to appear to be a Druid before the College council in order to gain entry.  However, given the circumstances of this game I felt that approval for this might be somewhat unlikely...


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## Walking Dad (May 28, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> As to Dread Necromancer spells to impress a crowd I would consider using planar binding to summon some hapless, but impressive Outsider and then having Summned Undead buffed with your higher level spells tear it apart a veritable horde of Mumys and Wights.
> 
> ...



My post shoudn't offend you.

Planar binding: Hard to do with no magic circle on the spell list


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

And I'm really offended, I just recognize the legitimacy of the concern.  Its no fun being significantly less powerful than members of the group, but at the same time is awkward telling someone that their character is too powerful and has to be toned down.  Things are generally easier if a group has a common level of power, but that doesn't often happen.  I generally just settle for doing what I want if it is within the permitted guidelines and let the DM tell me whether its permissable or not.

Good grief, you are right, and there I go assuming that they would have magic circle becuase otherwise having planar binding is completely pointless... *sigh*

On a unrelated note, I am somewhat surprised that no one has even mentioned considering the excellent Initiate of the Sevefold Veil one of my all time favorite Arcane Prestiege classes.  Ultimate Magus from Complete Mage is also well worth considering for those looking for cool character concepts.


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## Dire Lemming (May 28, 2008)

Well if you want to let me in on it I could daze, charm, hold, dominate, or Geas, it for you.  

I just want to be good at diplomacy and getting others to fight my battles for me if I can't stop them from happening in the first place.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Well how about bringing in some animated Undead, they are not magic items.  A few Dragon skeletons a Wraith or two?  Trouble is most of the Dread Necromancers spells are deadly rather than flashy so you'd really need something to kill...


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## Graybeard (May 28, 2008)

I did give serious consideration to the initiate of the Seven Fold Veil class. It has a lot of interesting abilities. With all the prestige classes and races out there, the possibilities are nearly endless. I even gave serious consideration to a wizard specializing in enchantment. One of the games I play in once went up against an evil wizard enchanter. We got our butts kicked. We were all around level 11 or 12 at the time and the save DCs for the spells were really high. The wizard had an INT of around 30 after buffs. Add to that spell focus and greater spell focus, it wasn't pretty. Many of us fell victim to suggestion or Geas spells. We all had a great time in that adventure though because the NPC bad guy was very different than any we had fought before.


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## Walking Dad (May 28, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> Well how about bringing in some animated Undead, they are not magic items.  A few Dragon skeletons a Wraith or two?  Trouble is most of the Dread Necromancers spells are deadly rather than flashy so you'd really need something to kill...



Hell, I will be playing the DN. It is perhaps a good test to see his one class performance against optimized builds   

Any suggestions for my two missing feats and/or spells for advanced (or eclecting learning?

Feats:

1 ?
3 Eschew Materials
6 Imp. Turn Resistance
9 Sickening Grasp (Complete Mage 46)
12 Rapid Metamagic
15 Quicken Spell
18 ?


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## Voadam (May 28, 2008)

*Drow druid WIP*

Kinslath Vorextor
Drow druid 18
NE
Str 8
Dex 10
Con 16
Int 13
Wis 25
Cha 13

HD 18d8+48
AC 10
F +14 R +6 W +15 (+4 vs fey spell-like abilities, +2 on Will saves against spells and spell-like abilities, +2 on will saves against enchantment spells or effects)
Init +4
BAB +12 Grapple +12
Attack +12

Feats: Danger Sense, Extra Wildshape, Improved Initiative, Improved Elemental Wildshape, Multiattack, Natural Spell, Track, 

Skills:
Concentration 21 ranks +3 con = +24
Knowledge Nature 21 ranks +1 int +2 nature sense = +24
Listen 7 ranks +6 wis +2 racial = +15
Search 7 ranks +1 int +2 racial = +10 (auto check when within 5' of secret doors)
Spellcraft 21 ranks +1 int = +22 
Spot +6 wis +2 racial = +8
Survival 21 ranks +6 wis +2 nature sense = +29


Age Venerable (timeless body)
Speaks: Common, Druid, Elven, Undercommon, 

Sleep Immunity
Darkvision 120'
Spell Resistance 29
Light Blindness: 
1/day Dancing Lights, Darkness, Faerie Fire 
Wild Empathy +18
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Wildshape 8/day tiny-huge animals/plants, 3/day small-huge elemental
Venom Immunity
Thousand Faces
Timeless Body
Animal Companion: Underdark Dire Tiger.

Spells: DC 16+ spell level
6, 7, 7, 7, 6, 5, 5, 4, 3, 2, 

Equipment:
Black spider silk robes.
Rothe Hide boots.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

How about craft feats we were told we would have time to use them afterall.  Scribe Scroll is invaluable as is Craft Wonderou Item and Craft Wand, heck at our level even Craft Ring or Rod.


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## Walking Dad (May 28, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> How about craft feats we were told we would have time to use them afterall.  Scribe Scroll is invaluable as is Craft Wonderou Item and Craft Wand, heck at our level even Craft Ring or Rod.



Good idea. He got Craft Wonderous Item as a bonus feat already.


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## Halford (May 28, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Hell, I will be playing the DN. It is perhaps a good test to see his one class performance against optimized builds




Yeah that and you want to be a Lich...


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## Dire Lemming (May 29, 2008)

I thought of another great prank to do.

Cast Sympathy on someone's underwear so that it attracts obese female ogres.  Conversely, cast Sympathy on yourself to attract attractive members of a species.  Wonderful!

Then there's most conjuration spells


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## Jemal (May 29, 2008)

I must say, the king of Prank spells is also the bread and butter of the Transmuter...
Polymorph Any Object.

Turn the ceiling above them into a pile of goo which drops on them, or the floor beneath them to mud.. or "HEY Bob, why are you wearing a tutu?"  Heck, Polymorph said ogre lady into a buxom brunette, then set it to dispel partway through the.. er.. 'date'.   The possibilities of that spell are endless, which is the main reason it's my personal favourite.


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## Halford (May 29, 2008)

Whats funnier than a custard pie to the face - aside from virtually anything else?

Fifteen custard pies to the face telekenesis style!

Otto's Irresistable Dance to someone trying to deliver a serious speech on anything...


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## Halford (May 29, 2008)

Okay, I have to trade in Waves of Exhaustion for Mordenkainen's Portable Pimp Pad Magnificent Mansion.  Style over substance, thats my motto...


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## Jemal (May 29, 2008)

The problem with Mords Mansion, and the only reason I haven't taken it yet (I make it a point for ALL my mages with 8th lvl or above spells) is that it has an Arcane Focus.  I've been avoiding spells with Foci or Material Components b/c he said we had nothing that wasn't 'required' for our character concepts..

(BTW, Why does 8th lvl get all the cool spells?  Mord's Mansion, Poly Any Object, Polar Ray, Mind Blank, Moment of Presience, Otto's Irresistable Dance..)


OH ALSO - Halford, you asked a question a couple pages back before my rant on power-gaming vs roleplaying and I got sidetracked and forgot to answer - 

On INvisiblecastle, after you roll, the page should look kinda like this: 
[sblock]Die roll for Example
Campaign: Masters of the Arcane 
Rolled on: 2008-05-29 02:14:53.133628

1d20+238 → [10,238] = (248) 
Teaching Check. 

[link to roll]  [link to character]Formatted Versions
Clicking almost any text on this page will copy it to your clipboard.
Link http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1609330/ 
Character http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/search/224046/ 
Castle Forum [roll=Example]#1609330[/roll] 
BBCode Teaching Check.  (1d20+238=248) [/sblock]

if you click on that last part (The BBCode) it'll save to your clipboard, and then you can just paste it into your post, which will do THIS: 
Teaching Check.  (1d20+238=248)


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## Dire Lemming (May 29, 2008)

Well, being a Beguiler I can't use Polymorph spells, but I can use Shades to summon Nick's Magnificent Shadow Mansion.  

As long as you believe it's real, it is!


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## Halford (May 29, 2008)

But you know it isn't real...

Thanks for answering that question Jemal.  I guess I need to reroll my hit points and post the link thing.

Incidently Magnificent Mansion is 7th not 8th and for very special boys and girls who take the Sublime Chord PRC Otto's Irresistable Dance is 6th - hurray for me! "Nothing else for you to do but dance!" 

But its okay you guys can share Halford's pad if you like, he'll even through in a Heroe's Feast for breakfast - the literal breakfast of champions - he may be evil, but he knows how to shmooze.  The best thing is he can't even poison you because the feast makes you immune!

In regard to foci if you look through earlier posts I believe we were cleared to use them so long as they were nomagical and on the understanding that they would be considered worthless for the purposes of sale, etc.

So how long are we looking at before he IC thread kicks off?  Are we looking for a particular number of participants or some such?


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## Dire Lemming (May 29, 2008)

I'm going to post what I've finished so far of my character sheet here so that anyone who's so inclined can point out each and every horrible flaw.

If you've got any suggestions as well I'd be happy to hear them.  I'm particularly unsure about my chosen languages.

Name: Nicholas Cappola
Race: Human
Sex: Male
Levels: Beguiler 19, Mindbender 1
Alignment: Neutral
Age: 32 (Looks around 20)

Ability Scores:
Str: 11 Level 20 increase
Dex: 14 (+2)
Con: 10
Int: 20 (+5) level 4, 8, 12, 16 increase
Wis: 10
Cha: 16 (+3)

HP: 62 of 62
Speed: 30 ft
BAB: +9/+4
AC:
Initiative:

Fort: +8
Ref: +8 (Base +6, Dex +2)
Will: +13

Attack:

Class Features:
Armored Mage
Trapfinding
Cloaked Casting, +2 DC, +2 overcome SR
Surprise Casting (Swift Action)
Advanced Learning Level 3:  Magic Aura
Telepathy (ability to communicate telepathically with any creature within 100' that has a language)
Silent Spell
Advanced Learning level 7: Lesser Geas
Still Spell
Advanced Learning level 11: Geas/Quest
Advanced Learning level 15: Nick’s Irresistible Dance
Advanced Learning level 19: Shades

Skills:
Appraise
Balance
Bluff +26 (23 ranks, Cha+3)
Climb
Concentration +23 (23 ranks)
Decipher Script
Diplomacy +36 (23 ranks, Cha+3)
Disable Device
Disguise
Escape Artist +25 (23 ranks, Dex+2)
Forgery
Gather Information + (23 ranks, Cha+3)
Hide
Intimidate +11 (18 cc ranks (+9), Cha +3)
Jump
Knowledge (arcana)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge ( )
Listen +23 (23 ranks)
Move Silently
Open Lock
Profession
Search +18 (13 ranks, Int +5)
Sense Motive +23 (23 ranks)
Sleight of Hand
Speak Language 6 ranks
Spellcraft +28 (23 ranks, Int +5)
Spot
Swim
Tumble +25 (23 ranks, Dex +2)
Use Magic Device

Feats:
Combat Expertise
Improved Feint
Dodge
Improved Initiative
Eschew Materials
Spell Focus: Enchantment
Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
Heighten Spell

Languages:
Planar Trade
Goblin
Giant
Draconic
Undercommon
Sylvan
Abyssal
Infernal
Celestial
Auran

Equipment:


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## Dire Lemming (May 29, 2008)

Well, here are my horrible HP rolls.

http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1609367/


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## Shayuri (May 29, 2008)

I don't see any horrible flaws. There are a couple of things I just want to confirm though:

1) Lesser Geas -and- Geas? You might consider taking Heroism or Greater Heroism in one of those slots. It's a good buff for the Beguiler.

2) Dodge? Unless it's meeting a prereq, you're probably better served with something else there...just about anything else, really.


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## Walking Dad (May 29, 2008)

Okay, I have it, I will make two characters and will choose one of them when they are finished (including background).

One single class DN

and a

Human Conjurer 6 / Master Specialist 10 / Archmage 4
Forbidden Schools (Enchantment, Evocation)
Focused Specialist (Comp Mage p. 34)

[sblock=stats]

Str   10     2
Dex   16    10
Con   14   6
Int   16     10    (21)
Wis  10    2
Cha  10   2
(Level Bonus 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 to Int)


Familiar traded for PH" teleport class feature

Conjurer Feats:

Human Bonus: Spell Focus (Transmutation)

Wizard Bonus: Scribe Scroll
2nd Wizard Bonus: Traded for Spontanous Divination (Comp. Divine)

Master Specialist Bonus Feats:
Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)

1 Collegiate Wizard  (Comp Arcane)
3 Spell Focus (Conjuration)
6  Augment Summoning
9 Minor Shapeshift (Comp Mage p 45)
12 Quicken Spell
15 Eschew Materials ?
18 ?

Spells in Spell book:

0 All, but Evocation, Enchantment and Divination

1 (13)

2 (8) 

3 (8) Haste', Slow', Heart of Water', Dragonskin', Bands of Steel*, Mage Armor Greater*, Phantom Steed*, Dimension Step*

4 (8) Polymorph', Displacer Form', Celerity', Voice of the Dragon', Black Tentacles*, Solid Fog*, Dimension Door*

5 (8) Telekinesis', Lightning Leap', Heart of Fire', Overland Flight', Teleport*, Wall of Stone*

6 (8) Mental Pinnacle', Planar Binding*, Freezing Fog*

7 (8) Elemental Body', Glass Strike', Reverse Gravity', Statue'; Project Image, Choking Cobwebs*, Stun Ray*, Greater Teleport*

8 (8) Polymorph any Object', Project Image, Greater Shadow Evocation, Superior Invisibility, Planar Binding Greater*

9 (16) Shapechange', Timestop', Replicate Casting', Summon Elemental Monolith*


Spells per day (including Int bonus):

0 - 3+2
1 - 5+3
2 - 4+3
3 - 4+3
4 - 4+3
5 - 4+3
6 - 3+3
7 - 3+3
8 - 3+3
9 - 3+3

Edit: Seeing my spells, I should perhaps change to Transmuter?[/sblock]


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## Jemal (May 29, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> Incidently Magnificent Mansion is 7th not 8th



Heh thanks, I keep forgetting that cuz I always cast it Extended, so I think of it as 8th. 



			
				Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Edit: Seeing my spells, I should perhaps change to Transmuter?



Hey, that's my shtick, so I'd have ta fight ya for it.


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## Walking Dad (May 29, 2008)

Perhaps I should fill my level 9 conjuration only slots with quickened spells?

Any practical jokes that use Major Creation? (Craft Poison, Craft Alchemy?    )

QJemal: Don't you play a sorcerer? I have to fill the slots in advance 
Transmutation got the better high level spells.


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## Graybeard (May 29, 2008)

Here is my character: Trevor Southworth IV

[sblock=Trevor]

Trevor Southworth IV      aka: Oberon	
Sorcerer 6/Fatespinner 4/Wild Soul 10 
Human 	Age: 28	Height: 5’9” 	Weight: 163	 Chaotic Good
Hair: long blond		Eyes: bright blue      Speed: 40    

STR: 8     0 pts				Saves     Total   Base   Mod   Misc 
DEX: 14  6 pts				FORT       10       6         2        2
CON: 14  6 pts				REF            8       6         2
INT:  14  6 pts				WILL        15      16       -1
WIS:  9    1 pts
CHA: 22  13 pts  +5 lvl adj.		BAB/Grapple    10/9

Init: +2     AC: 12  (10+dex), Touch: 12, Flat: 10	HP: 119  (20d4+40+20)

MW Dagger  1d4-1     attack: +10/+5
MW Rapier   1d6-1     attack  +10/+5

SKILLS:		Total	   Ranks     Mod      Misc

Bluff		 	  14         8             6
Concentration          25        23            2
Diplomacy               18        10            6            2    
Intimidate                  8           0           6            2
Knowledge:	          
          Arcana           25         23           2
          Nature            10          8            2	(8 ranks cc, 4 ranks class)
          Nobility           4          2            2	(4ranks cc)
          The Planes      8           6             2
Listen                      -1           0            -1
Profession Gambler   4         5            -1
Sense Motive           -1          0            -1
Speak Language                    1                        (2 ranks cc)
Spellcraft                26         22             2             2
Spot                          -1          0           -1

FEATS:
Spell Focus Conjuration    1st			Maximize Spell       9th
Great Fortitude                   1st			Improved Toughness  12th
Augmented Summoning    3rd			Sudden Maximize    15th
Rapid casting                       6th                       Extra Spell (8th lvl)    18th
Spells:      Known: 9,5,5,4,4,4,3,3,3+1(feat), 2    Per Day: 6,8,8,7,7,7,7,6,6,4
0 level:
Acid Splash, Read Magic, Detect Magic, Mending, Light, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Detect Poison, Arcane Mark
1st level:
Grease, Identify, Magic Missile, Lesser Orb of Electricity, Featherfall, Remove Fear*
2nd level:
Scorching Ray, See Invisibility, Eagles Splendor, False Life, 
Touch of Idiocy, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter*
3rd level:
Protection From  Energy, Fireball, Displacement, Greater Mage Armor, Invisibility Sphere*
4th level:
Dimension Door, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph, Orb of Cold, 
Break Enchantment*
5th level:
Feeblemind, Overland Flight, Telekinesis, Dragonsight, Baleful Polymorph*
6th level:
Greater Dispel Magic, Superior Resistance, Disintegrate, True Seeing*
7th level:
Greater Teleport, Glass Strike, Spell Turning, Prismatic Spray*
8th level:
Summon Monster VIII, Polymorph Any Object, Horrid Wilting, 
Greater Plane Shift, Sympathy*
9th level:
Shapechange, Obedient Avalanche, Time Stop*

* These spells are from the Wild Soul class.

Additional Abilities: summon Seelie Ally 3x per day, Immune to Sleep, Speed +10, +2 Saves vs Enchantments,  +1 to save DCs for Illusions and Enchantments, Spin Fate, Fickle Finger of Fate, Spin Destiny, Spin Destiny, Resist Fate   

[/sblock]

Background to follow but essentially, he is a spoiled rich kid. Son of a minor noble.


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## Halford (May 29, 2008)

Here is the link for my HP rolls, at first I did not realize you could search and find rolls again so rolled another set, but since it shows the order you can see which was rolled first - this one...

Hit point rolls for Halford. (8d6=22, 7d10=57, 2d8=10, 2d4+26=30)


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## Halford (May 29, 2008)

Double Post...

So, er, um, yeah, anyway, I'm gonna go....


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## Graybeard (May 29, 2008)

Here is the background for my character.

[sblock=Trevor background]

Trevor Southworth IV

	Often found in his normal attire of blue tunic, blue trousers, white boots, white gloves, and white musketeer style hat with a long blue feather. He carries a fine rapier and dagger, gifts from his family. 

Trevor had a typical spoiled childhood. His parents ensured he had no desire unfulfilled. As a teenager, Trevor frequently threw wild parties for everyone. Many local people were concerned about his self-destructive behavior. One night, on a drunken rampage, he broke into the local alchemist shop. He mixed several different items together until an explosion rendered him unconscious. He remained that way for days. His family feared he would never recover. 

       	 One day, a mysterious young woman arrived at the estate. She claimed to be a healer who specialized in such cases. They allowed her in and she stayed with Trevor for three days. When she was finished with her work, she left as mysteriously as she had appeared. Trevor awoke a different man. He still partied like before but only moderately partaking of alcohol. He began to be able to perform minor magical tricks. At first he used these to amuse party guests. Then he started getting serious about the craft and started reading everything he could about magic. He decided to continue to be the carefree spoiled person everyone thought he was but would adventure outside the town to pursue ways to increase his abilities. 

	A few years later, he was walking alone in the forest relaxing when he spotted a beautiful young woman. Thinking she might need protection from the wild animals, he ran to her. She greeted him by name and explained that she had helped him recover from the accident years prior. The two of them spent weeks together where he learned much about the Fey people and developed even greater abilities. Before they parted, she taught him how to call upon her people for help in dire need. 

	Since then, he has traveled the land seeking fortune and stopping evil wherever it is found. One day, a mysterious robed figure approached him in a tavern. At first, thinking it merely another merchant who needed help, he was about to brush the person off. He stopped cold when the figure called him by the name the Fey people know him by, Oberon. He listened intently as the figure described a place where only the greatest magic users could go and learn to perfect their craft to even greater levels. Intrigued, Trevor accepted the offer. 

[/sblock]

And my Hit Point rolls:
hit points (1d4=4, 1d4=4, 1d4=2, 1d4=3, 1d4=4, 1d4=2, 1d4=2, 1d4=3, 1d4=4, 1d4=4, 1d4=4, 1d4=2, 1d4=3, 1d4=1, 1d4=1, 1d4=4, 1d4=3, 1d4=2, 1d4=3)


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## Dire Lemming (May 29, 2008)

So can I just say I've got all the focuses and material components I need?  Aside from maybe a change of clothes it doesn't seem like there's much else we're allowed to have.  Or can we get a bunch of mundane items like mirrors and bedrolls?  Is there a point?


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## Jemal (May 30, 2008)

Hmm, If such is the case, I have a request for Albedo. Mordenkainen's Sword as an arcane focus requirement of a 'miniature platinum sword worth 250gp'... For story & Thematic purposes, could I substitute a crystal sword for this, considering that either way they'll be 'worthless' to the general populace? I'd also plan on enchanting it in the future to grant various abilities (most likely not as a weapon, as a 'wondrous item), but those would be of course subject to further DM approval, and kinda irrelevant to the current question.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2008)

Double post.


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## Dire Lemming (May 30, 2008)

Patience Jemal.  I know how tempting it is to tap that submit button just one more time as you wait for slow ass ENWorld to react to the first click but you must have patience.  ENWorld 2 or whatever it's called will hopefully make things at least a little better.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2008)

Nah, I'm just trying to artificially inflate my post count.


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## Dire Lemming (May 30, 2008)

Actually, whatever happened to ENWorld 2?  I saw a countdown timer for it a while back but I don't see that anymore and ENWorld is just as screwy as ever.  E-mail notification doesn't work, the "More" link for the smilies doesn't work, and it's still slow as hell.


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## Shayuri (May 30, 2008)

As much as it pains me to forgo yet another incarnation of this character I'd really like to play sometime...I must withdraw.

Best wishes to all, and happy gaming!


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## Graybeard (May 30, 2008)

Too bad. I hope you get a chance to play in the future.


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## Shayuri (May 30, 2008)

Me too. Thanks.


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## Dire Lemming (May 30, 2008)

Waaaaaahaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!    Whose clothing am I going to cast greater invisibility on now?!


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## Walking Dad (May 30, 2008)

My male lich    ?


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## Dire Lemming (May 30, 2008)

... Even if I was gay, it's probably shriveled off... Hell no!


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## Halford (May 30, 2008)

Well lets change that topic...

"Well my friends any who wish to join me for a more comfortable view of the festivities may accompany me into my Magnificent Mansion, complete with viewing room of course."

So saying he casts Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion and steps through a shimmering door into nothingness.

Inside the mansion a translucent Unseen Servant in stylish black livery with a depiction of a silver hourglass proffers a tray of h'ordeurves and another brings forth a glass of fine elven red wine.  Halford sinks into one of seven thronelike chairs faceing the mansion's exit and watchs the proceedings contentedly sipping his wine.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2008)

"AH, I see you pay Homage to my ancestor.  You know, it was an Elzmyr who created this spell, even if that damned Morden-whatsisname made it famous.  Aye, we Elzmyrs have been on the leading edge of spell creation for Centuries.  A nice adaptation, I must say.. The livery is well rendered, and the wine is exquisite.  My compliments to the conjurer."  The young man lifts a cup in toast.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2008)

Also, a question for the DM : I'm rethinking Wild Mage, I'm not too fond of keeping the idea for my character.. unfortunately, the only other way I know of meeting the knowledge requirements for Loremaster (Which I DO want to keep) is the Education feat, from both the Players guide to Faerun and the Ebberon book.  I've hesitated to request it before now b/c it's only in setting-specific books, but It would make more sense for my character than the wild mage level.  Would you allow it?

(What it does: Makes all knowledge skills class skills and gives you a +1 bonus to two different knowledge checks)


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## Halford (May 30, 2008)

"Well in that case my friend let us raise a glass to the one responsible for our comforts! And hope our fellows share our decided flare for the dramatic, I for one wish to be entertained."

Looking out of the viewing window and seeing little of note occuring Halford turns to his companion.

"So tell me my Dragon-blooded guest how do you feel about Rary's third law of transdimensional enchantment? I would be pleased to hear the opinions of you and your Great Patriarch on the matter.  I will admit it has always irked me."

OOC:Blah, blah, blah, I have Knowledge Arcana blah.  Uses Glibness to make up some facts in order to make himself seem more knowledgable than he actually is, etc., probably even Inspiration as he still has a few rounds left on it.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2008)

I've never been too fond of Tansdimensional Enchantments myself, and the patriarch, from what I've heard, was strictly against such things.. though in that time, magical theory was more along the lines of "Fireball fireball lightning bolt, job done.".  Oh, you got the occasional Transmuter or specialist with a flare, coming up with something impressive.  As far as my concerns on Rarys theories...

OOC: Know Arcana, Bluff, Diplomacy to help convince listeners that I'm right. 

IC: But enough talk of theory, there'll be time enough for that in the school, I'd wager.  Right now I'd like to know what I can about my fellow students.  Especially those that seem to share my supposedly eccentric tastes and styles.


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## Jemal (May 30, 2008)

hmm.. that brings up an interesting concept.. Bluff vs Knowledge.

IF your 'knowledge' tells you one thing, and another seemingly knowledgable person tells you something completely different, who do you believe?  A bluff that's "Almost too incredible to believe" is +20 to your sense motive... But still, look at my character: 
+5 sense motive.  Discounting really lucky rolling, Halford could tell me that dragons are all evolved from dwarves, and I've just been 'deluded' into thinking otherwise by stupid historians up till now, and By the rules, I'd believe him.  Granted, PC's get to choose what they believe to most extents, but still..


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## Halford (May 30, 2008)

"Well I myself am a follower of the Fochlucan school, though one might call me estrangd from its hierarchy.  I have a firm belief that the gods help those who help themselves, and I act accordingly.  My primary purpose is singular and straight forward I seek the amusement, advancement, and contentment of Halford Daern.  Magic I find is the ultimate fulfiller of all these requirements, and it is the most fascinating of games to play..."

Halford looks out to his peers.

"As for these others? I know little enough my self, perhaps thy ought to be here... perhaps not.  Still I am sure the wheat shall be sorted from the chaff son enough.  They must have some measure of power to be included in our number in the first place, and to be capable of reaching this place in the first place -their efforts sould entertain, but the manner of that entertainment is yet to be determined"


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## Halford (May 30, 2008)

Personally I choose to believe that a lot of the Bluff check involves the creation of credible stories, though this is poorly supported by the rules.  Thus Halford's lies would be far more subtle and ideally play to what the listener wants to hear.  So more likely Halford would try to convince you that the Dwarves were a race created by dragons and disguarded because of their inherent inferiority to their great masters...

Speaking of which Halford is hardly mister Sense Motive, just didn't have the skill points to spare 116 of my 197 skill points were spent on prerequisites, although I would have taken many of those anyway.


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## Walking Dad (May 30, 2008)

Name: Gregorius Darkholme

[sblock]Race: Human
Sex: Male
Levels: Dread Necromancer
Alignment: Neutral
Age: 92 (Looks around: dead)

Ability Scores:
Str: 12    4 
Dex: 14    6 
Con: --    0
Int: 16    6 (+2 lich)
Wis: 10    0 (+2 lich)
Cha: 25    16 (increased: 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20) (+2 lich)

HP: 128 of 128
HP (19d12=116)
DR: 15/ magic and bludgeoning

Speed: 30 ft
BAB: +10/+5
AC: 21 (10 + 4 chain shirt + 2 Dex + 5 nat armor)
Initiative: +2

Fort: +6
Ref: +8
Will: +19

Attack:

Class Features:
DN
Advanced Learning (up to 2nd level spell) = Kelgore's Grave Mist (PH2)
Advanced Learning (up to 4th level spell) = Burning Blood (SpC)
Advanced Learning (up to 6th level spell) = Spirit Wall (SpC)
Advanced Learning (up to 8th level spell) = Necrotic Curse (CM)
Advanced Learning (up to 9th level spell) = Avascular, Mass (SpC)


SkillsRanks only) 23 ranks pending
Bluff 15
Concentration 23
Know arcana 23
Know religion 7
Spellcraft 23
Use Magic Device 1 (Cross-Class)
(+8 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, and Spot checks)

H ?
1 Force of Personality
3 Eschew Materials
6 Imp. Turn Resistance
9 Sickening Grasp (Complete Mage 46)
12 Rapid Metamagic
15 Quicken Spell
18 ?

Languages:
Common
Abyssal
Infernal

[sblock=DN Spells]










[/sblock]

Equipment:[/sblock]


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## Albedo (May 30, 2008)

Ok guys, a  rogues gallery is up.

Also, you guys kinda went nuts on the conversation aspect here 

Please repost any unanswered questions. Finding them is pretty hard lol.

Sorry I haven't responded here in awhile though, I've been doing work on the campaign itself so I can start the IC thread.


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## Walking Dad (May 30, 2008)

Another good looking, charming and somewhat arrogant young human male stepps in front: "I'm the sorcerer supreme from behind the lands of the rainbow and will now show you the great secrets of prismatic magi..."

The sorcerer freezes in his tracks as a nearly skeltal hand touches his arm.

"I had heard enough of this fool's claims", the lich declares.
Now you see a demonstration ith more meat on it... an blood."

A group of commoners, led by skelton warriors is brought between two walls. The lich points at one of them and shoots a black ray of necromantic energy from his outstretched hand, causing one of them to violently purge blood vessels through its skin. The purged blood vessels spread outward, creating a many-layered mass of bloody, adhesive tissue that traps the others in a gory horror. Next a cold mist kills most of them, followed by a green one, that burns the rest and destroys the bloody chains.
With a last word and some thrown crystals, the dead rise again and bow before the lich.

[sblock=Used Spells] Avasculate Mass (8th), Kelgore's Gravemist (2nd), Acid Fog (6th) and Plague of Undead (9th)

BTW: First action was the liches paralysing touch (Save DC: 27).[/sblock]


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## Graybeard (May 30, 2008)

Walking Dad,

I love this line:   Age: 92 (Looks around: dead)

That's great. Can't wait to play this game.


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## Graybeard (May 30, 2008)

After watching the column of stone arise from the ground, the fireworks display, and finally, the clearly evil skeletal figure lay waste to perfectly good servants, a young blond haired man steps forth.

Such wastefulness. They were perfectly good servants, you realize. Now I suppose it's up to me to clean up this mess you made.  the man says haughtily to the necromancer.

With a few well chosen words, the young man is soon replaced by a colossal Gold Dragon. The dragon unfurls its wings and lifts off the ground. After a few circles above the area, it hovers above the servants and lets loose an awesome display of fire, laying waste to the newly undead servants.

The dragon settles back to the ground and changes back to the young man.

Now, I'll do the responsible thing and put out the fire.

Using specific arcane gestures and words, the man calls forth a massive avalanche of snow, quenching the fire.

Then, brushing off his hands as though they were dirty, he steps aside.

[sblock=spells]
Spells used:  Shapechange and Obedient Avanlanche
Damage from breath weapon: 24d10=132      http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1610705/
Damage from avalanche=87    http://invisiblecastle.com/roller/view/1610719/
57 crushing damage and 37 cold

[/sblock]


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## Walking Dad (May 30, 2008)

"Now you have destroyed some perfectly good servants. But the raw material is regrowing... My name is Gregorius, by the way."


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## Graybeard (May 30, 2008)

I agree it was a waste. Good servants are so hard to find these days. The name is trevor Southworth IV. Though some know me as Oberon. You may call me Oberon my new friend. We do have quite a crow here though. It should be interesting to see what the others can do. 

OOC: we both play in Scotley's Tomb of Horrors game. Good to see you again.


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## Halford (May 30, 2008)

Halford raises an eyebrow atthe Lich's performance.

"Well I have to give him points for a certain macabre style."

In response to the later mage's use of Shapechange, Halford smiles.

"Ah, I have always felt that polymorph effects were exceptionally utilitarian, let us hope our colleague does not forget his true calling with all those scaly muscles."

[Sblock=Quick Quibble]Sorry to be a pedant, but Shapechange is capped at 25 HD and a Colossal Golden Dragon has a minimum of 38 HD, Huge is the best you can get at 23 HD and for that you must have a casterlevel of 23.  Shapechange is a powerful enough spell as it is!  It really doesn't matter in this context though.[/Sblock]


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## Graybeard (May 30, 2008)

Sorry. I was going by the spell description in the PHB and did not check the errata. I'll leave it up to our DM as to which version is allowed. I'll go by whichever version he rules whether it is the errata or original.


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## Dire Lemming (May 30, 2008)

Speaking of quibbles.  You aren't allowed to bring allong anything you can't carry yourself, so Gregarious Greg wouldn't have had any victims to slaughter.


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## Halford (May 31, 2008)

Ah, I was actually consulting my PHB so I guess I must have a newer version with the errata in.  Yep, sounds like a DM ruling to me, I might change my spell selection accordingly!

Personally I always subscribe to the RPGA Polmorph standrds, e.g., that Polymorph, etc., are banned its just far too Easily exploitable without serious controls.  At minimum I would switch allowable forms to only those in the PHB.  Some people, will spend hours looking for the most powerful possible forms, not me honest.

[Sblock=Sense Motive DC -5]I was not being honest.[/Sblock]

As to Walking Dad bringing people, its not like he's got them anymore... Seems fair enough as a simple style issue


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## Jemal (May 31, 2008)

TO Halford - My PHB says 2 hd/caster level (max 50)... all of our PHB's do, so I think yours may be a typo (we have like 5 in the house, and I checked them all *L*)

TO ALBEDO: My questions: 
First: I'm rethinking Wild Mage, I'm not too fond of keeping the idea for my character.. unfortunately, the only other way I know of meeting the knowledge requirements for Loremaster (Which I DO want to keep) is the Education feat, from both the Players guide to Faerun and the Ebberon book. I've hesitated to request it before now b/c it's only in setting-specific books, but It would make more sense for my character than the wild mage level. Would you allow it?

(What it does: Makes all knowledge skills class skills and gives you a +1 bonus to two different knowledge checks)[/quote]

Second : What limits do we have on Arcane Foci/Material Components?  I understand that they have no 'worth' in the school, but how much can we start with, and will they be available to get later? You stated they have no value here, so does that mean we can't buy them if we need more in the future?  or that we'd have to travel elsewhere to obtain them?  Or would they simply be 'available' without having to pay?

Third : I have a request; Mordenkainen's Sword has an arcane focus requirement of a 'miniature platinum sword worth 250gp'... For story & Thematic purposes, could I substitute a crystal sword for this, considering that either way they'll be 'worthless' to the general populace? I'd also plan on enchanting it in the future to grant various abilities (most likely not as a weapon, as a 'wondrous item), but those would be of course subject to further DM approval, and kinda irrelevant to the current question.

Finally : As to our going nuts with the Conversation.. perhaps we could start an IC thread just for roleplaying purposes while everything else is finalized, so as not to clutter this thread?  I for one am very much enjoying the bantering and showing off.


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## Jemal (May 31, 2008)

Also, I'd just like to say that I'm really looking forward to this, the characters all seem well thought out and what I've seen so far has been amusing.


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## Dire Lemming (May 31, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> As to Walking Dad bringing people, its not like he's got them anymore... Seems fair enough as a simple style issue




Well if you wanna go into that far, yes he actually would still have them because all magic effects are reversed in this place after 24 hours.  So not only could he not technically have brought them in the first place but if he had they'd be alive again in twenty-four hours as if they had been true-resurrected.


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## Walking Dad (May 31, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Well if you wanna go into that far, yes he actually would still have them because all magic effects are revered in this place after 24 hours.  So not only could he have not brought them in the first place but if he had they'd technically be alive again in twenty-four hours as if they had been true-resurrected.





			
				Albedo said:
			
		

> Shayuri: You guys can have any focus/material components you want, as long as they are non-magical. The only gear stipulation is that you have to be able to carry all that you own.



I don't think that people or undead are gear. The undead are more a class feature   
About still having them through the game:
The spelleffect was polymorph, but they died from a supernatural breath effect...
First possible loophole?


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## Dire Lemming (May 31, 2008)

They're either slaves, which count as property and thus, gear.  Or followers, and you can't have the Leadership feat so you can't have followers.

And actually, they were killed by whatever spell you killed them with before you reanimated them.  The breath weapon just destroyed their reanimated corpses.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Also, I'd just like to say that I'm really looking forward to this, the characters all seem well thought out and what I've seen so far has been amusing.





You think my character is well thought out? Hah! HAhaha!  Seriously though, I just thought of a class that I liked and wanted to try playing at a high level.  I don't even have a real background for him.


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## Jemal (May 31, 2008)

Technically, he could CREATE followers (temporarily).  Polymorph Any object (Yeah, I'm obssessed with that spell) : Pebble into human.  Duration: 20 minutes. (Long enough for a 'demonstration of power')

If you wanted them to last longer, you'd have to first create life-sized dolls of humans. (Same size, Related, duration = 3 hrs) 
OR, mutliple applications of the spell.  Get ahold of a mammal.  Polymorph it into a larger Mammal (same kingdom, same class, same int=permanent).  THEN, polymorph that larger animal into a human (Same kingdom, same class, same size=permanent).  Sure it can be dispelled, but..

And the real question here is : What does ALBEDO think of whether or not you can bring people with you (And how did you obtain them in the first place).


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## Dire Lemming (May 31, 2008)

Speaking of Albedo, I wonder where they got the idea for their name.  The two possible sources I can think of in order of likelihood are Xenosaga and alchemy.


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## Halford (May 31, 2008)

I think I must simply have a newer PHB, check the SRD for the errata...

Shapechange
Transmutation
Level: Animal 9, Drd 9, Sor/Wiz 9 
Components: V, S, F 
Casting Time: 1 standard action 
Range: Personal 
Target: You 
Duration: 10 min./level (D) 

This spell functions like polymorph, except that it enables you to assume the form of any single nonunique creature (of any type) from Fine to Colossal size. The assumed form cannot have more than your caster level in Hit Dice (to a maximum of 25 HD). Unlike polymorph, this spell allows incorporeal or gaseous forms to be assumed. 

You gain all extraordinary and supernatural abilities (both attacks and qualities) of the assumed form, but you lose your own supernatural abilities. You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own. The new form does not disorient you. Parts of your body or pieces of equipment that are separated from you do not revert to their original forms. 

You can become just about anything you are familiar with. You can change form once each round as a free action. The change takes place either immediately before your regular action or immediately after it, but not during the action. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check. 

Focus
A jade circlet worth no less than 1,500 gp, which you must place on your head when casting the spell. (The focus melds into your new form when you change shape.)


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## Jemal (May 31, 2008)

ah, I see.  I'm a RAW guy, and usually stay away from the SRD.


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## Halford (May 31, 2008)

Me to generally, tough I think the Polymorph line warrants an excepion.  I would not have brought it up had it not been I my PHB, which is only about 6 months old - my first having started to fall apart.


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## Walking Dad (May 31, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> They're either slaves, which count as property and thus, gear.  Or followers, and you can't have the Leadership feat so you can't have followers.
> 
> And actually, they were killed by whatever spell you killed them with before you reanimated them.  The breath weapon just destroyed their reanimated corpses...



Even more confusion.

- If I kill something with a spell and chop it down afterwards with a sword, will both actions be undone?

- If I kill someone with a sword and resurrect him with a spell later will he die later, because the spell ends?

- Can you conjure a sword and kill someone permanently with it?

- What if someone changes into a dragon and ripps someone apart?

And if he automatically resurrects, can I cast bullstrength on a fighter and he is unable to kill me (because assisted with magic)?


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## Dire Lemming (May 31, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> Even more confusion.
> 
> - If I kill something with a spell and chop it down afterwards with a sword, will both actions be undone?
> 
> ...




I don't like this line of questioning. :\


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## Walking Dad (May 31, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> I don't like this line of questioning. :\



What do you mean?

This would also be Gregorius' intime questions. 

If the "spells are not permanent" feature of the school would be openly announced.


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## Dire Lemming (May 31, 2008)

Um, I'm not sure what you were saying in that last post, could you perhaps revise it?  No offense, your English is excellent most of the time, just this time I think you may have jumbled the words.


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## Graybeard (May 31, 2008)

He is refering to spell effects only lasting 24 hours. So if you are feebleminded, you return to normal 24 hours later. Same if you are killed by a spell. He is asking if someone changes into another creature and then kills something, does that something return in 24 hours since they were killed indirectly by a spell. The same type of reasoning he is asking about conjuring a weapon and killing someone with that weapon. Since the person was killed indirectly due to a spell, do they return in 24 hours?

I was curious about that myself.


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## Dire Lemming (May 31, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> What do you mean?
> 
> This would also be Gregorius' intime questions.
> 
> If the "spells are not permanent" feature of the school would be openly announced.




Thanks for making that clearer

You mean the question he will ask when the time comes to ask it?


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## Walking Dad (May 31, 2008)

Yeah. Ask, or "research" on his own


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## Dire Lemming (May 31, 2008)

Got it.  I think a good way to say it would be like this:

This would also be one of Gregorius' eventual questions. 

'intime' isn't really an English phrase, which is why I was confused.


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## Walking Dad (May 31, 2008)

Sorry, I meant "in-game" or "in-game".

"Intime" and "outtime" are local common phrases in life roleplay.


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## Jemal (May 31, 2008)

Aye, this is a question that will have to be adressed when Albedo logs on... 

What effects are reversed, exactly, and which AREN'T?  Is it ONLY direct spell effects, or after-effects/side effects as well?  
I think we should probably quit debating it amongst ourselves, though, as Albedo has allready expressed that he doesn't want to have to sort through our rants and trying to pick out our actual questions *L*


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## Albedo (Jun 2, 2008)

k guys, lots of questions on the Spell Effects reverse thing. Answer is, you don't know, so you will have to experiment in game. But be careful, with the exception of Mage Duels, murder is still a crime. And Mage duels will not be allowing coup de graces or corpse mutilation. 

Shapechange will be kept as 'old' PHB, since this is what I own.

No people can enter this plane with you, as gear or otherwise. 

Education Feat is allowable.

Jemal, your character is not up in the RG. Can't start the IC if people aren't posted.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 2, 2008)

I still have two feat slots open.

Would the _able learner_ feat from Races of Destiny be fine?

Edit: It is a first level and human or doppelganger only feat.
It allows to spend skill points at cross-class skills 1 to 1 but retains the skill max (= max skill rank 11 on level 20 [(20+3)/2])


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## Voadam (Jun 2, 2008)

Kinslath posted.

A quiet little drow.

A quick question on sources, what books can I use for elementals for elemental wild shape? Is Fantasy Flight Games' Elemental Lore OK or just WotC ones or just MM?


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## Walking Dad (Jun 2, 2008)

If I'm not mistaken, you can use the ability only to become an elemental (creature) not any creature of the elemental type. There was a feat for the later.


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## Jemal (Jun 2, 2008)

WD is right about the Wild shape thing.  If you'll note, it states "Small, Medium, or Large elemental(Air, Earth, Fire, or Water)." not 'small medium or large creature of the elemental type with the air, earth, fire, or water subtype.'

Also as he pointed out, there's an EPIC Feat in the DMG (Pg 209) called Improved Elemental Wild Shape which states: "Your ability to Wild Shape into an elemental is expanded to include all elemental creatures (not just air, earth, fire, and water elementals)."  it also includes bonus size categories and gives you all of the elementals extraordinary and supernatural abilities. (OOOH...)

WD - When asking for something outside of allowable sources, it's usually advisable to include what it does, as the DM may not own that particular source.

Albedo - Was just waiting on your response so I could finish the character.   Still waiting for these two (From the same post as the education feat question)


> Second : What limits do we have on Arcane Foci/Material Components? I understand that they have no 'worth' in the school, but how much can we start with, and will they be available to get later? You stated they have no value here, so does that mean we can't buy them if we need more in the future? or that we'd have to travel elsewhere to obtain them? Or would they simply be 'available' without having to pay?
> 
> Third : I have a request; Mordenkainen's Sword has an arcane focus requirement of a 'miniature platinum sword worth 250gp'... For story & Thematic purposes, could I substitute a crystal sword for this, considering that either way they'll be 'worthless' to the general populace? I'd also plan on enchanting it in the future to grant various abilities (most likely not as a weapon, as a 'wondrous item), but those would be of course subject to further DM approval, and kinda irrelevant to the current question.



Well, since they've been talked about a lot and you haven't expressed any problems with it so far, I'll just assume we can have whatever material components/arcane foci we want and make my char. under that assumption until/unless you state otherwise.
Unfortunately, I have to leave for work soon and ENWorld is loading REALLY slowly, so I'll have to post him when I get home.  *L*  Ah well.


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## Jemal (Jun 2, 2008)

*Double Post*


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## Jemal (Jun 2, 2008)

Also, a note to Voadam: Albedo has allready expressed that he dislikes people asking for whole sources.  If you want something specific out of a book, ask for it, but don't ask for "stuff out of book X"  The opening post includes all the sources that are allowed.  Everything else is on a case by case basis.


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## Albedo (Jun 3, 2008)

Jemal, remember you cannot have any magical components or focuses, and you only have as much as you can carry. The Crytal Sword is fine. Now post in the rogues gallery please.

Vodam, I'm not allowing anything outside of the monsters manual for polymorph/wildshape. I don't feel like having to evaluate every new monster picked out for every random encounter.

K guys,  IC Thread  is up. Please start from beginning again. And no more RPing in this thread. Anyone lacking a character in the rogues gallery has until this segment of the campaign ends to post them.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 3, 2008)

"No friends and servants" does this include familiars?


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## Albedo (Jun 3, 2008)

Nope, familiars are allowed, since they are technically a part of you. Same with animal companions and special mounts etc.


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## Halford (Jun 3, 2008)

By no magical components or foci I take it you mean no components or foci which would detect as magical under detect magic, as opposed to no material components of foci for magical spells - right?  I thought that was rather obvious, but an important enough distinction to point out.

As for he IC thread I will wait until those who posted their introductions before me have posted and then post Halford's.


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## Albedo (Jun 3, 2008)

NOTE TO ALL: I want caster levels of all your casting types to be posted with characters please. I don't feel like picking thru all your feats, class abilities etc to find out.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 3, 2008)

I have to work on a new introduction, lacking victims   ...


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## Jemal (Jun 3, 2008)

OK, just finishing up spell selection... Now I have to figure out whether we should repost our original Intro's or start with something fresh??  I kinda liked what we had going there.. *L*


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## Halford (Jun 3, 2008)

I was rather enamoured with the start here to, I guess we leave it up to individuals whether they want to cut and paste, change completely, or even jazz up what they had.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 3, 2008)

I'm still trying to think of something. I've never been such a high level before. :\


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## Jemal (Jun 3, 2008)

well, I've showcased my talents, whos gonna try showing me up?


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## Voadam (Jun 3, 2008)

Albedo said:
			
		

> Vodam, I'm not allowing anything outside of the monsters manual for polymorph/wildshape. I don't feel like having to evaluate every new monster picked out for every random encounter.




Thanks for the clarification on monster sources.

I ended up switching out the improved elemental wildshape feat I had taken. While I qualified for all the listed prereqs I failed to originally notice the epic descriptor which adds a hidden prereq I did not qualify for.

(Epic is ECL 21 and not 20 right?)

I took sudden empower (complete arcane) instead.

Another quick question. I took multiattack which has a prereq of at least three natural attacks. Since I can wildshape into bears and such which this would apply to is this valid?


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## Voadam (Jun 3, 2008)

double post


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## Albedo (Jun 4, 2008)

Voadam said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification on monster sources.
> 
> I ended up switching out the improved elemental wildshape feat I had taken. While I qualified for all the listed prereqs I failed to originally notice the epic descriptor which adds a hidden prereq I did not qualify for.
> 
> ...




It would apply only when you are in such forms, as well as anything that requires multiattack as a prereq.


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## Albedo (Jun 4, 2008)

Ok, I'm gonna give a few more days for anyone who wants in to post, and then get this thing rolling officially. 

I'm just gonna sya great job to all the descripters so far, keep up the good work.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 4, 2008)

Gah, I'm still trying to come up with something impressive to do.


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## Voadam (Jun 4, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Gah, I'm still trying to come up with something impressive to do.




Illusions. Beguilers are masters of both enchantment and illusions. When you face situations with things that are immune to mind affecting spells look over your illusion list (or your party buffing mind-affecting charms).

I played a beguiler in a Savage Tide game and that is my advice because there are a lot of common monster types that are immune to mind-affecting spells (constructs, vermin, undead, plants, etc.)


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## KerlanRayne (Jun 4, 2008)

I was thinking about a Master Abjuration Specialist/Archmage that can dispel CL 20 spells with a regular dispel magic, without any items. 
My other thought was a Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus. Would you allow Incantatrix? If not, I'll have to find something else, maybe Loremaster.
Any thoughts from anyone on which would be better for this kind of thing?


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 5, 2008)

I know he has Illusions, he just doesn't care much for them.  My main problem I think is that I've never played a high level spell caster before so I really don't know what to do.


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## Halford (Jun 5, 2008)

Dire Lemming my advice is to change your character.  A Beguiler looses a lot of options and I think with a full spell list you would find things far easier.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 5, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> I know he has Illusions, he just doesn't care much for them.  My main problem I think is that I've never played a high level spell caster before so I really don't know what to do.



I love illusions and don'tz care much about enchantments...

Perhaps you should heed Halford's suggestion.


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## Jemal (Jun 5, 2008)

Dire Lemming - Perhaps a show of your 'skills' would work if your enchantments aren't?  If I recall correctly, there are several good enchantments that buff skill checks, etc.?
I'm not actually all that familiar with Beguiler, so...

Aside from that though, I'm starting to agree with them, It seems that an enchanter-mage in an epic mages school is going to be somewhat lacking.


Kerlan - I have one simple question : How?  Dispel magic caps at 10, I know of very few abilities that can improve that, and even with all of those, it wouldn't be reliable vs same-level casters.  Not to mention I hope that's not your whole 'thing', cuz that'd seem like kind of a one-trick pony. (Granted no mage is "REALLY" a one-trick, but the more you specialize..)


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## Walking Dad (Jun 5, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Dire Lemming - Perhaps a show of your 'skills' would work if your enchantments aren't?  If I recall correctly, there are several good enchantments that buff skill checks, etc.?
> I'm not actually all that familiar with Beguiler, so...
> 
> Aside from that though, I'm starting to agree with them, It seems that an enchanter-mage in an epic mages school is going to be somewhat lacking.
> ...



Use the Greater Dispel Magic Spell   
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagicGreater.htm

My problem: only the normal one is on the DN spell list


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## KerlanRayne (Jun 5, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Aside from that though, I'm starting to agree with them, It seems that an enchanter-mage in an epic mages school is going to be somewhat lacking.



If he doesn't like Illusions, which is half his class, why did he become a beguiler? If you want Enchantments you could try a Focused Specialist Enchanter.







			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Kerlan - I have one simple question : How?  Dispel magic caps at 10, I know of very few abilities that can improve that, and even with all of those, it wouldn't be reliable vs same-level casters.  Not to mention I hope that's not your whole 'thing', cuz that'd seem like kind of a one-trick pony. (Granted no mage is "REALLY" a one-trick, but the more you specialize..)



Master Specialist adds +5 to the check, Inquisition domain power adds +4, and Elven Spell Lore adds +2. He can also counterspell and with Mastery of Counsterspelling from Archmage, the spell will be reflected back at the caster. This stuff would be more useful in the mage duels of course. 

Do you think Ultimate Magus would be better?


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 5, 2008)

You know, beguilers aren't unique because they cast enchantment primarily and illusion spells...  They're the only class that gets a decent number of spells but doesn't need to prepare them ahead of time.  Like I said, I've just never played a high level spell caster before so I'm at a loss.  Whatever, just consider Nick as having stepped down.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 5, 2008)

If you want spontanous casting with a bigger spell known list:

- the Warmage (Comp Arcane)

- Sandstorm prestige class (I think sand shaper or something...)

- I think the favoured soul (comp divine) gets more spells known than a wizard.

- Spirit Shaman (comp divine) uses the druid spell list. "Known spells" are changed each day.


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## Jemal (Jun 5, 2008)

WD - Aye, Greater Dispel does it but if you note, he specifically said 'with a normal dispel', hence my curiosity.

Kerlan - Do any of those state they can break the cap on Dispel?  B/c The spell specifically stats it has a max of +10.


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## KerlanRayne (Jun 6, 2008)

Your caster level is capped at +10. These add to the dispel check so it's not limited by the cap.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 6, 2008)

Ah whatever.  I can't remake my whole damn character.  If the character I want to play really is unplayable I might as well just not play at all.


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## Halford (Jun 6, 2008)

Sorry to hear that Die Lemming, its a shame but Beguler's simply aren't that useful at levels this high a level.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 6, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Ah whatever.  I can't remake my whole damn character.  If the character I want to play really is unplayable I might as well just not play at all.



Hey, Lemming, I have some crappy spells on my spell list, too.

Greater harm is worse than harm.
Binding spells, but no magic cycle.
No Greater dispel magic.
No transportation spells.

Play him like you want and have fun. It's a game, no competition.

BTW: Nobody likes my lich  (    )


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 6, 2008)

I know it's a game, but I don't know how to play.  I've never played a high level spell caster before.  Playing a wizard or something would just make things even more confusing.


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## Jemal (Jun 6, 2008)

WD - It's Nothing personal.. at least on my part *L*  If it makes you feel any better, I'd have the same feelings towards Dire Lemming's beguiler.. The Elzmyr line of sorcerors despises Enchantment and Necromancy

As for Greater Harm, it may have a worse average damage, but don't forget it's saving grace : You can metamagic it.  (Empowered 20d12 = nice damage)

Dire Lemming - I'm not going to try to convince you to do something if you really don't want to, but I will give it one shot and just say that there's only one good way (IMO) to learn high level mage play, and that's by playing it.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 6, 2008)

Heh, been meaning to post here for the last couple of days due to busy life.  Looks like I got in just in time.

Concept is done for my charachter, class levels and stats are all done up, just need to dig through the spell lists to be sure I've got everything.  For now, here is a prelim build minus spells.

[sblock=Alphina]
Alphina Ariella
Human Male Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Archmage 5
AL: LE  HT: 5'9" WT: 145 Hair: Black  Eyes: Blue

STR: 8 (+0) [0 Points]
DEX: 10 (+0) [2 Points]
CON: 12 (+1) [4 Points]
INT: 22 (+6) [13 Points + 5 level]
WIS: 11 (+0) [3 Points]
CHA: 16 (+3) [10 Points]

HP:
AC: 10 (10 base +1 dex +1 dodge)
Saves: 
FORT: +6 (5 base + 1 Con)  
REF: +5 (5 base) 
WILL: +17 (17 base)
Init: +0 (0 dex)
Bab: 9
Ranged Touch Attacks: +9

Skills(Total/Ranks):[8 Maxed skills, Max rank 23] 
Concentration: +24
Search: +29
Spellcraft: +32
Knowledge(Planes, Arcane, Nature, Religion): +29 (Arcane 31)
Tumble: +11


Feats: [8]Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus(Enchantment, Necromancy), Quicken Spell, Empower Spell, Practiced Spellcaster (Sorceror), Residual Magic, Sudden Maximize, Skill Focus: Spellcraft

Bonus Feats/Class Features: Familiar (Toad +3 hp), Arcane Spell Power +4, Expanded Spell Knowledge (1-5th), Augmented Casting, Scribe Scroll, Arcane Mastery, Spell Penetration, Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Counterspell, Spell power +3.

Languages: Common, Draconic, Sylvan, Celestial, Elven, Dwarven.

Caster level for wizard half is 25, caster level for sorc is 13.  Spell levels are 18 and 8.[/sblock]


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## Albedo (Jun 6, 2008)

Dire Lemming: Sorry to lose you, if you get the urge to try something else I can leave a slot open for you if you want.

Vincent: I want you to get a finished character in the Rogues Gallery and a post in the IC thread ASAP so I can progress the game.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 7, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> WD - It's Nothing personal.. at least on my part *L*  If it makes you feel any better, I'd have the same feelings towards Dire Lemming's beguiler.. The Elzmyr line of sorcerors despises Enchantment and Necromancy
> 
> As for Greater Harm, it may have a worse average damage, but don't forget it's saving grace : You can metamagic it.  (Empowered 20d12 = nice damage)
> 
> Dire Lemming - I'm not going to try to convince you to do something if you really don't want to, but I will give it one shot and just say that there's only one good way (IMO) to learn high level mage play, and that's by playing it.




Sure, I'd like to play a beguiler because they don't require allot of prior preparation with things like memorizing spells or choosing which you know.  You just have all the spells on the list plus a few that you picked and can cast any of them.  That's why I want to play a beguiler.  Because they specialize on enchantment and because they don't have a whole bunch of things you need to to track of.

The game looks like it could be really fun but I don't know what to do as a high level mage and since the first thing you need to do is show off all sorts of spells in a way that shows a deep knowledge of them I'm pretty much screwed.  Even if Beguilers were playable at high levels.



			
				Albedo said:
			
		

> Dire Lemming: Sorry to lose you, if you get the urge to try something else I can leave a slot open for you if you want.
> 
> Vincent: I want you to get a finished character in the Rogues Gallery and a post in the IC thread ASAP so I can progress the game.




I don't want to quit but I'm not sure how I can play.  I don't know enough about playing a high level spell caster to put on some impressive display.


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## Albedo (Jun 7, 2008)

Dire Lemming: You're an enchanter. Why don't you make someone else put on a display?


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 7, 2008)

I guess so... I wouldn't expect anyone here to fail their will saves though...  I'll try it, I guess.

Jemal.  What kind of dragon is it anyway?


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## KerlanRayne (Jun 7, 2008)

Here is what I have so far. The skills aren't right as well as a few other things. I'm still working on it. Any feat suggestions? 

[SBLOCK]*Wizard* 
_Description: _ 
Gender: Male, Race: Petal
Sizecategory: Tiny, 5'10" tall, 140 lbs, 21 yrs old
Black hair; Brown eyes; deeply tanned skin
Alignment: Neutral Good
Class: Abjuration Focused Specialist 5 / Master Specialist 10 / Archmage 3
XP: 296,500 / 300k

Speaks Common, Sylvan, Elven, Celestial, Infernal, Draconic, Abyssal, Auran

*Statistics*
Str 06 (-2 Mod) = 14 ( 6 pts) (-8 Race)
Dex 20 (+5 Mod) = 10 ( 2 pts) (+10 Race)
Con 16 (+3 Mod) = 12 ( 4 pts) (+4 Race)
Int 26 (+8 Mod) = 18 (16 pts) (+4 Race, +4 Lvl)
Wis 12 (+1 Mod) = 12 ( 4 pts) ()
Cha 16 (+3 Mod) = 08 ( 0 pts) (+8 Race)

Hit Points: 310 = 4 + (17d4=42.5) + (18*3 CON=54)
AC 23 (10 Base, +6 Armor, +5 DEX, +2 Size) 
 • Touch 17 (10 Base, +5 DEX, +2 Size) 
 • Flat 18 (10 Base, +6 Armor, +2 Size) 
 • Both 12 (10 Base, +2 Size)
Init +5 (+5 DEX)
BAB +8/+3; Grap -2 (-2 STR, +8 BAB, -8 Size)
Speed: 60' Fly(Good), [15' walk]
Capacity: 100/200/300
Weight Carried: xxx lbs

*AC Modifiers:* 
+4 when Fighting Defensively
+6 Greater Mage Armor spell
+4 Shield spell

*Saves:*
Fort +15  (+6 base, +3 CON, +6 Res)
Refl +17 (+6 base, +5 DEX, +6 Res)
Will +20  (+13 base, +1 WIS, +6 Res)

*Attacks:*
+13 Melee, Touch Attack 20/x2
 • To Hit: (+8 BAB, +5 DEX)
+13/+8 Melee, Dagger 19-20/x2
 • To Hit: (+8 BAB, +5 DEX)
+13/+8 Ranged, Longbow +1, 1d4+2, 20/x3, 110'r
 • To Hit: (+18 BAB, +5 DEX, +1 Enhancement)

*Combat Modifiers: Attack & Damage*
+5 to Melee Attack (Weapon Finesse)
+?? (Ranged/Melee) (Attack/Damage) (Condition)(Feat, Ability, Racial, etc)

*Skills:* (182 points)
+37 Concentration = (21 Ranks) (+3 CON)
+46 Knowledge (Arcana) = (21 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+30 Spellcraft = (21 Ranks, +3 Feat) (+8 INT)
+43 Knowledge (The Planes) = (27 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+43 Knowledge (Religion) = (27 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+43 Knowledge (Nature) = (27 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+43 Knowledge (Psionics) = (27 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+43 Knowledge (War) = (27 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+25 Knowledge (Dungeoneering) = (9 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+25 Knowledge (Engineering) = (9 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+25 Knowledge (Geography) = (9 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+25 Knowledge (History) = (9 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+43 Craft (Alchemy) = (27 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+12 Decipher Script = (7 Ranks) (+8 INT)
+2 Survival = (0 Ranks) (+5 WIS)
+13 Use Magic Device = (10 Ranks) (+3 CHA)
+25 Escape Artist = (13 Ranks) (+5 DEX)
+25 Tumble = (13 Ranks) (+5 DEX)
+25 Balance = (13 Ranks) (+5 DEX)
+32 Spot = (27 Ranks) (+1 WIS)
+25 Hide = (13 Ranks) (+5 DEX)
+1 Climb = (0 Ranks) (+3 STR)
+1 Jump = (0 Ranks) (-2 STR)

*Feats:*
Racial (Bonus) - Weapon Finesse
Lvl 1 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
Wiz 1 (Bonus) - Scribe Scroll
Lvl 3 - Craft Wonderous Item
Lvl 5 -  Alternatvie Class Feature
MSpc 1 (Bonus) - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
MSpc 3 (Bonus) - Greater Spell Focus
Lvl 6 - Spell Focus (Conjuration)
Lvl 9 - Elven Spell Lore
Lvl 12 - Arcane Mastery
Lvl 15 - 
Lvl 18 - 

*Petal Racial Traits:*
 • Bonus Feat: Weapon Finesse.
 • -8 Str, +10 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +8 Cha. 

*Wizard Class Abilities:*
 • Focused Specialization Variant
 • Banned Schools: Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment
 • Bonus Feat: Scribe Scroll.

*Master Specialist Class Abilities:*
 • Bonus Feats: Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Greater Spell Focus. 
 • Expanded Spellbook: 3 Free Abjuration Spells. 
 • Minor School Esoterica: +5 bonus to Dispel checks. 
 • Moderate School Esoterica: Evasion for Spells after casting Abjuration spell. 
 • Major School Esoterica: Cast Personal range Abjuration as Touch spell 3/day. 
 • +2 Caster level increase for Abjurations. 

*Archmage Class Abilities:*
 • Arcane Reach
 • Mastery of Shaping
 • Mastery of Counterspelling 

*Equipment:* [60,900 gp]
Traveler's outfit (Worn, 0 lbs)

*Weapons:* [46,551 gp]

*Other Possessions:*

Total Gold Used: *0 gp* out of *0 gp*
Total Gold Left: *0 gp*

*Story:* 


*Appearance / Personality:*

[/SBLOCK]


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Dire Lemming: 


			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Another Polymorph any Object : Scorpion to *Large Red Dragon. *
> [Same kingdom(animal) Duration factor 5: 12 hours], and I use a Telekinesis to hurl it out the door, cuz I don't trust touching another man's scorpion.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

nevermind


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Um, so what's that mean?  Does it fail?  I have no idea whether or not I can take a large red Dragon.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Um, so what's that mean?  Does it fail?  I have no idea whether or not I can take a large red Dragon.



The above was an error by me.

You should be able to take the dragon down. Large red dragons have a CR betwee 5 and 10. (very young to juvenile)


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

For clarification:  Due to the effects of Polymorph, it's a Young, 13 HD Red Dragon with 4 HP, 0 BAB, and a +0 will save.  It's got the physical capabilities of a red dragon, but retains its own will, hp, and attack.  Sry, but that's the best I can do.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

If it retains it's mental abilities, it is stil mindless -> immune against mind effects ?

I hope not.


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

scorpions aren't mindless, they are of animal intelligence - Though poly any object changes your int score to what you become, so it would have the dragons intelligence score of 12 while retaining it's own 10 wisdom/2 charisma.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> For clarification:  Due to the effects of Polymorph, it's a Young, 13 HD Red Dragon with 4 HP, 0 BAB, and a +0 will save.  It's got the physical capabilities of a red dragon, but retains its own will, hp, and attack.  Sry, but that's the best I can do.





I wouldn't have minded a bevy of humans.


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## Albedo (Jun 8, 2008)

Dire Lemming: A little piece of advice for you. Go through your list of advanced learning spells and redo them. There is no reason for you to be taking alot of those spells, like Geas. Why do you need a spell that can be beaten by spells already on your spell list. You should be taking things that don't have anything to do with illusion/enchantment in order to round out your capabilities. And I have no idea why you took lesser geas when it only works on creatures 7 HD or less...

Also, you specifically took shades, so you can duplicate ANY conjuration spell 8th level or lower. You didn't need Jemal to make you a monster, you could have done so on your own, and you can make it explode just as well. Remember, shades is still 80% real, even if they disbelieve.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Unfortunately I can only take Illusion and Enchantment spells with Advanced Learning, but what would you suggest instead of the spells I've chosen?

I could already automatically control a monster I summoned with Summon Monster, so it would do nothing to show off my enchantment abilities.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

@Jemal: SRD
Tiny vermin
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 10, Con 14, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 2

@Albedo: Beguiler advanced learning only allows for enchantment or illusion spells.

Just as DN's only allows for necromancy.


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## Halford (Jun 8, 2008)

No the spell does grant the changee the Intelligence of its new form and since dragons are intelligent it must have a mind.  Vermin are considered mindless because their intelligence is too miniscule to register.

There is no mindless creature that has an intelligence score, though there are creatures immune to mind effecting stuff with intelligence scores.  I am 99% sure of that, theres probably something in some Fiend Folio...


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

How about undead?


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

the point's rather moot as the spell gives it an int score and changes it's type, loosing the vermin traits.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 8, 2008)

Spell list is just about done.  I'm just looking at a few more spells. That said, I'd like one spell out of races of dragon. Power Word: Pain.

Page:116


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## Halford (Jun 8, 2008)

Yep, you've got it there Jemal.

Well a guess you could PAO an Undead into something able to be effected by mindeffecting spells, but if its failed the save anyway why not POA it into a wine gum?  Does POA actually work offensively btw?


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

I like cookies.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

No, undead are immune to mind effecting spells, even those undead with minds.

I also like cookies.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

That would work, but not against liches    :

Immunities (Ex)
Liches have immunity to cold, electricity,* polymorph *(though they can use polymorph effects on themselves), and mind-affecting attacks.


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## Albedo (Jun 8, 2008)

Vincent: Powerword Pain is fine.


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## Halford (Jun 8, 2008)

I changed cookie to wine gum in an edit, just to spite those who like cookies.

Feel the fury of true unadulterated evil cookie lovers! Bwahahahahaha!

Ehem.  Sorry, I'm okay again now...


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## Halford (Jun 8, 2008)

Ah, but you could POA yourself into a cookie Walking Dad...

Introducing the worlds most expensive cookies Lichios! For a mere 50 million gold pieces we we have one of our Liches polymorph himself into a cookie of your choice!  The Liches even come back a few days later thanks to their phylacterys(sp?) making Lichios the worlds first recyclable cookie!


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Dire Lemming - True, but I could polymorph the undead into something that ISN'T undead, and thus not immune. (Polymorph changes your creature type).

Walking Dad - Good point, if we ever get into a fight I'll have to remember to Disintegrate instead of PaO.


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Halford - Wow... that's awesome!!  Me want recyclable cookies!!!!


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## Albedo (Jun 8, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Unfortunately I can only take Illusion and Enchantment spells with Advanced Learning, but what would you suggest instead of the spells I've chosen?




Suggested Spells:
Rebuke, Final: 7th Level, Spell Compendium
Hiss of Sleep: 7th Level, Spell Compendium
Solopsism: 7th Level, Spell Compendium
Battle Hymn: 4th Level, Spell Compendium
Shadow Form: 5th Level, Spell Compendium
Ray of Stupidity: 2nd Level, Spell Compendium
Sting Ray: 2nd Level, Spell Compendium
Serene Visage: 1st Level, Spell Compendium
Heroism, Greater: 6th Level, PHB
Shadow Walk: 6th Level, PHB
False Vision: 6th Level, PHB
Phantasmal Killer: 4th Level, PHB
Heroism: 3rd Level, PHB

These are just the ones I have time to look up right now.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Looks like we've got our first school bully.  It's too bad for him that everyone around him is just as powerful.  Though he picked a good target.  Nick isn't the type to start a fight.

I don't have Spell Compendium Albe.  What's wrong with Geas though?  I think it's cool!


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Geas doesn't really do anything you can't do with other enchantments (Such as dominate spells).  I agree that the slot would be better used for something that you can't duplicate with your current spell list


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## Albedo (Jun 8, 2008)

Geas deals 3d6 damage a day, and you guys heal 20 hp a day from natural healing, and the sickened can be removed by or negated by alot of different effects, or ignored because its not that big.

And I did post 6 PHB spells that could be useful to you as well (Like greater heroism)


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

But... Geas is cooler... Than Dominate... 

Fine... I'll pick something else.

I didn't think that I'd be using my spells against regular students... That and I tried to build the character as he naturally might work out going up from 1st level...


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## Bialaska (Jun 8, 2008)

I noticed this game was set (recruiting). Does this mean that there's still room?


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Only if you're not evil!  I'm like the only guy here who's not evil!


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

HEY! Elzmyr's a very good person! What makes you think I'm Evil?  I'm sad now.


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## Albedo (Jun 8, 2008)

I'm officially closing recruitment tommorow when I get off work (aproximatly 34 hours from now). Any new submissions need to be in the rogues gallery and have their first actions posted by then.


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## Halford (Jun 8, 2008)

Halford's not evil either, the very idea is preposterous, he has a DC 100 Bluff check to prove it!

Halfords not evil. Bluff check. (1d20+80=100)  Grr, now it rolls a nat 20.

Incidently his people carry lead sheets, its a tradition.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Man, I've had to deal with allot of people like Alphina in real life and... It's not fun.

Did you make his name sound like a girl's just to dare someone to tell him that and provoke him?


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Did you make his name sound like a girl's just to dare someone to tell him that and provoke him?



I didn't wanna be the first to say it. 



			
				Halford said:
			
		

> Incidently his people carry lead sheets, its a tradition.



NICE!


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

Gregorius is evil. But more in a cruel, egoistic way. And he got "humors"


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

My personal overwhelming hatred of the type of person Alphina portrays is hampering my character's ability to respond to him with anything but the same overwhelming hatred despite the fact that blind rage is quite out of  character for Nick...


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Halford - Um.. care to explain what rules back up your 'fireball doesn't effect you'?  I respect peoples opinions, but just stating something as fact without any proof means nothing..

WD - Ah sorry, forgot you'd paralyzed somebody earlier, thought you were referring to the PC.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Alright, finally managed to come up with a non-rage-filled response to  boy.


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Ok so I've discovered something.. my character isn't evil, but he seems to be leaning more and more towards neutral, and getting along far to well with the evil guys *L*  looks like he's doomed to repeat his ancestor, hanging out with evil liches and "good" (snicker) bards.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

Come, join the evil side. We got recyclable cookies!


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Ok so I've discovered something.. my character isn't evil, but he seems to be leaning more and more towards neutral, and getting along far to well with the evil guys *L*  looks like he's doomed to repeat his ancestor, hanging out with evil liches and "good" (snicker) bards.




Just my luck.... the only reason my character isn't good is because of balance reasons.  Can I be you for a while Jemal?  On the upside, Alphina is continuing to make him/herself look like a frustrated teenager.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 8, 2008)

*Dire Lemming*, Not trying to be a jerk you know. ^_^;

He's just trying to make an impression, hell, for being lawful evil he's probably closer to lawful neutral.

That said, as I noted I'm backing out of the IC thread for a little till I can have a fully prepared spell list.  

*Halford*, I both agree and disagree with the reading I used.  The contingency I used for effect more than anything.

That said, Contingency is a terribly worded spell. It does not specify any type of spell, Not personal, or spells that affect you.

What about spells like haste that you can target specific people with, how about the fact that you can bring other people with you in teleport, What if I'd just used the dispel magic targeted on me.

Either ruling works for me (Though admittedly one weakens me.)  Can we get a ruling Albedo.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Vincent Tempes said:
			
		

> *Dire Lemming*, Not trying to be a jerk you know. ^_^;
> 
> He's just trying to make an impression, hell, for being lawful evil he's probably closer to lawful neutral.
> 
> That said, as I noted I'm backing out of the IC thread for a little till I can have a fully prepared spell list.



You're just reviving childhood traumas for me... no big deal.


I just wish I were playing an agressive character so I could have an excuse to kick Alphina's ass and coup de grace him while he was unconscious...  Then again, there are some advantages to not being good.


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Dire Lemming - 
First off, stop ing swearing.  If you need some time to calm down, then take it.
Secondly - You need to learn to seperate the player from the character, taking IC stuff this seriously is not healthy.
Thirdly - I highly doubt Power word Stun is his true power.. if it is, then you have very little to worry about with him being a bully *L*

Finally, to everyone - I'm not the DM, but can we PLEASE stop posting JUST OOC stuff in the IC thread?  If it doesn't contain an In character post, it belongs in the OOC thread, that's what they're for...


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Where do you get the idea that I'm confusing the character with the player?  I hate the character.  He's the kind of person that made me think of either murder, suicide, or both when I was in school.


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

> He's the kind of person that made me think of either murder, suicide, or both when I was in school.



Whoa dude, again I reiterate with the not healthy.. you're hardly the only person who's been bullied, but if you don't at least try to stand up for yourself, then what's the point of complaining about it?  There's a lot healthier ways to deal with it than murder/suicide.  Kicking him in the nuts is much less psycho.


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

However as much as I feel the need to continue this conversation, I'm supposed to be getting up in 5 hours, so... sleep time now.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 8, 2008)

Notice the past tense.  I didn't kill anyone, including myself.  Probably because it was inconceivable at the time to actually do such a thing.  But this is all clearly very politically incorrect discussion and will not be tollerated for long, so let's repress it and then wonder how something so horrible could have happened the next time some kid goes psycho with a gun at his high school until we get tired of thinking about it again, shall we?

I need to find a better place to bring this kind of stuff up...


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## Halford (Jun 8, 2008)

Hmmm, yes Contingency is not well worded.  My reasoning is this.

Contingency may notbe used for area effect damage spell.  I have this from both the Sage and Wizards customer service.  If that's not enough, and both of these sources have been known to be wrong, I think the example spells (featherfall, levitate, fly, teleport, and so forth) make it quite clear that area effects are not included - well to me at least. Given the fact that there are many area effects in the PHB which might have beenincluded you would think at least one would be given as an example...right?  The reasoning that just because it does not specifically say it does not it works is decidedly more dangerous than its counterpart.  Now if you were talking about a targeted dispel magic cast upon yourself I could see it...

More than anything it comes down to a poorly worded spell which is quite easily clarified if one uses a little common sense.  The difference between Rules as Written and Rules as Intended I suppose might allow for a loophole, but it is at best disingenuous.

However, even if you disagree with that the chained dispel magic still does not work.  Chain spell only effects spells that effect a single target with a range greater than touch -ergo no area effects, and there's no way a targeted dispel is effecting someone other than you and effecting you personally, plus it could not effect the same target more than once.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 8, 2008)

Alrighty, where to begin.

First off, I can't find an online reference to the sage comment you discussed.  If it was in dragon, fair enough, though I will point out that the sage has been repeatedly wrong about even basic questions.  For example, the sage agreed, in direct contradiction to the PHB that you could Empower-Empower-Empower-Maximize a spell in a Dragon Mag about two years ago.

Wizards CustServ is a source I will never agree to using.  They contradict each other often about even basic rulings.

The arguement that "Because they didn't include these spells, they don't work" Is a bad arguement.  The four spells they picked for contingency are rediculously straight forward uses of the spell, and are all travel spells.   There are hundreds of spells in the PHB that were not included, such as Shield, Fire Shield, Magic Circle etc.

Of course the reasoning for this in 3.5 is because they took the contingency spell nearly word for word from the second edition books. ^_^

My arguement isn't "They didn't say these don't work so it does", my arguement is they didn't specifically say "Only these spells work."  It would have been very simple to say "Spells that ONLY affect the caster, or spells with a range of Personal or Touch" and specify that these spells only targeted the caster.

I agree entirely that its a poorly worded spell that could be clarified by the addition of a few words.  That said, I don't see this as a loophole so much as a clever use of my spell.

And finally, you misread me. I'm not using Chained contingency spells.  I am using the 9th level spell "Chain Contingency." Which functions as per contingency except that you can hold up to 3 6th level spells.

I chose 3 Greater Dispel Magic spells that used thier usual "Area" Effect, attempting to dispel one spell in their area until they succeed.


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## Halford (Jun 8, 2008)

Okay, with the precursor that I really don't care, and the understanding that I love a good rules arguement and am wrong at least as often as I am right....

No sorry not a clever usage.  Its in the everyone tries it column, and it simply should not work.  In the same "clever" category as players who try to use Shrink Item to drop giant anvils upon opponents.  Its not clever its an abuse of the spell for something it was never intended to be able to do.  If the designers had though of that usage would they have altered the spell? Probably in my view.  Its one of the main reasons I go with the RPGA polymorph rules, which essentially ban all PHB polymorph spell effects. Of course I am not the DM so that is neither here or there

Its a clever usage in the way that using Polymorph any Object to turn a speck of dust over someones head into a huge boulder is.  Its more that someone is prepared to exploit the rules for things they are not intended for.  By your "clever" interpretation I can now have three  fireballs contingent upon me saying the word "blammo." and I think we all know that was never the intent of the spell.

So I suppose if you believe it is reasonable to say that the creators meant it to be usable to trigger fireballs then your usage is justified.  So do you?  Really? _Really_ believe that?

As for the customer service and sage ruleings they were in conjunction with a thread on the wizards site some months ago, which I was following rather than actively participating in.  And sadly they really do mean bupdiddly, I know that I have recieved two different responses on the same question from them at least once.

My bad on my misinterpretaion of Chained Contingency - I had never heard of it. I am glad you pointed it out though!  What book is it from, because for the life of me I can't find it.  It does not come up on the Wizards spell index thingy.


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## Bialaska (Jun 8, 2008)

I remember Chain Contingency being in one of the old 3e Forgotten Realms books. Either the Campaign Setting or Magic of Faerun. Not sure if it's been reprinted anywhere.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 8, 2008)

Just doing a quick update before I go to bed.

I do take some offense to the suggestion that I'm 'Exploiting, twinking, etc, etc.'  Smart or innovative usage of the spells you have is not breaking the rules, it is utilizing them in a way the developers might not have concieved of when they developed the ability, I will give that much.

That said, I Rules as Intended? You'd have to ask Gygax that as its 3 editions back to the creation of that spell.  As far as the 3rd ed version goes, I'd say the devs agree with me. The feat "Craft Contingency" is based off the concept of Contingency, and it specifically allows Area spells (They are centered in your square if they effect you.)

Finally, yes, I do believe that "Blammo" Should work.  Keep in mind I wouldn't be targeting the fireball at the ogre 100 feet that way, I'd be dropping, in this case, three fireballs at my feet.  Of course, I'd also probably have cast Protection from Fire first, making it a rather 'clever' combo.

As for where Chain Contingency is from... You know, I don't know =.=;  I could have sworn it was reprinted in Spell Compendium but apparently it has not =(

If its an out of source spell I'm requesting permission or I'll drop it with appologies.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 8, 2008)

I was forbidden to take the craft contingency feat (and DN's have no access to the contingency spell)

We weren't allowed to start with active spells (includes contingency).


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Several things to say - 

Chain contingency has not been reprinted in 3.5, and as such is not in the listed sources so you'd have to get Albedo's approval for it.

I'd have to agree with Vincent on the wording of it, though: so long as the spell triggered is 'affecting' him, he's not breaking any rules, and I'm not seeing any cheese here (So long as he doesn't attempt to archmage shape the spell so it doesn't affect him, as that would break the conditions of contingency, as the spell would NOT be affecting him.  THIS is a commonly attempted cheese which does NOT work).  Also, your iteration that using a spell in a way it wasn't intended is not clever is... strange, to say the least.  I think hucking/levitating/finding something over an opponents head and transforming it into a giant rock is VERY clever, as well as hilariously amusing, and definitely not in the 'everyone tries it' column, as I've never seen ANYBODY try it (other than me..).

Also, I'd like to point out that the most common 2nd ed use for the chain contingency spell (Which was, as vince pointed out, worded the same as the 3E version) was "Ali-dhazim's Horrid Wilting X3.  Trigger: Enemy Sighted."
At least it's been updated so that it has to Affect you as well, meaning you have to protect yourself against the effects before using it or suffer the same consequences as your opponent.  It also means you can't find a spell that has NO protections against it, b/c any way YOU can protect against it, someone else can as well.  Especially considering that in the nature of this campaign, with people not actually dieing in spell duels, we can figure out how other mages fight, gaining knowledge of their tactics that we can use to protect ourselves against those tactics, forcing them to come up with new ones.

Finally, to anybody who says "Wow that's powerful, so why doesn't everybody do it?" well, two reasons : 
A - YOU are effected by the spells just as much as your opponent, meaning you'd also have to come up with a way of protecting yourself. Anybody with greater arcane sight would know what buffs you have, and if they know you've used contingent spells in this manner in the past, would have the opportunity to dispel those buffs (and/or the contingency itself), or buff themselves similarly.
B - It's  NINTH LEVEL SPELL, of COURSE it's supposed to be powerful!!! Time Stop, Shape Change, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, Wish, Gate, Imprisonment... ninth level spells are meant to be examples of "I'm a powerful mage, don't screw with me!".

Walking Dad - we've been standing around watching things happen here for a while, several of us have had chances of casting spells while waiting in the crowd.  Halford, for example, wrote his starting post assuming he had a few buffs (Divine Insight, Inspiration, Energy Immunity: Fire), and I used Moment of Presience, assuming I'd cast it in the crowd while they spoke  (Considering the time involved, I didn't think it would be a problem, and the DM has yet to complain about any of these).


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## Albedo (Jun 8, 2008)

Walking Dad said:
			
		

> I was forbidden to take the craft contingency feat (and DN's have no access to the contingency spell)
> 
> We weren't allowed to start with active spells (includes contingency).




On those notes, Walking Dad, hes not saying hes using Craft Continency, he's just listing it as an example.

Also, there were no prebuffs allowed, and I've been assuming that every spell casted or listed being cast is common knowledge to everyone in the area, except for Jemal's since he uses disguise spell.


Contingency: Here is where I stand on contingency. First off, I don't believe fireball functions in contingency. Damage is not really an "effect" and doesn't really seem to be a personal thing to me. However, Dispel Magic is a debuff.Simply put, spells that I believe are acceptable have some effect on a character (haste, protection from energy, etc). Removing these effects would also have an effect on the character. 

Now, I do believe the area dispel also allowable, since it has such an effect on you. Haste doesn't JUST effect you when being cast, its not a targeted spell on you, its a group of creatures that doesn't even have to INCLUDE you. And nobody has yet argued that haste cannot be in a contingency. Dispel magic follows the same standards. 

Vincent: Chain Contingency hails from Tome and Blood, and hasn't been reprinted as far as my knowledge goes. As such, I can't really allow random 3.0 spells, sorry.

Any other questions?


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## Jemal (Jun 8, 2008)

Hmm, problem solved.  yay DM!

Also : 







			
				albedo said:
			
		

> except for Jemal's since he uses disguise spell.



hehe.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

Yay!  Alphina really is just a jerk!  All he did was cast Command Word: Pain, then command Word: Stun.


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## OutlawJT (Jun 9, 2008)

Is there any chance you would approve use of the Book of Nine Swords? There is a mage prestige class in it that I have always wanted to play and never had the opportunity to try.


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

Outlaw - the DM's made it clear on a few occasions that he will not just add sources, you HAVE to ask for specifics, including page numbers (which class, what feats, what powers, etc)

Dire Lemming - not to sound nitpicky, but it's Power Word, not Command Word.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

Confusing it with Command I guess.  

The point is, inflicting the effects of those spells on someone doesn't really prove anything except that you're able to cast them since they don't give a save.  And we've all got level 9 spells.

I didn't notice that disintegrate at all.  Nick wouldn't have accepted his offer of hospitality if I had...  He doesn't feel secure hanging around psychopaths.


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

Well then, good thing Nick didn't notice.   Hey, look at it this way : If you DON'T join us in the 'cool kids clubhouse', Poor Elzmyr's gonna be stuck around all these evil psycopaths as peers and may give in to peer pressure.. Help me obi-wan, you're my only hope!


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

Also, yes they do prove something : Showmanship/Impressiveness, which is exactly what I've been trying to convince people of.  A few spells are impressive in and of themselves.  The rest need to be used in Impressive ways.

Dropping a fellow high mage to his knees in pain with a swift action, and then turning around and forcing him to stand their dumbfounded as another later on are both examples of Impressiveness.  There was nothing preventing you from retaliating except your own personal (Or perhaps your characters personal) views.  In fact, since I'm pretty sure Beguilers have Power Word's on their spell list (they're enchantment spells), you probably could've returned the favour.

Now I'm not saying that I think what he did was a GOOD thing, just that it did APPEAR impressive, and appearances are everything.  Especially in 'school'.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

He'll do whatever he's going to regardless of anything Nick does.  That's how PCs are.  Nick isn't "cool" because he's not a sadistic jerk so no one cares what he thinks.

I'm saying that it doesn't appear impressive.  Because he just did something anyone else here could have done.  Yes I could have done it too but I chose not to because that would have been childish and petty.  There was no creativity or ingenuity.  It was a simple well known spell.  It showed nothing but why he was even here in the first place.

Unless these people are complete idiots they aren't going to be impressed that someone they invited because of their power actually has the power they already knew they had.  Nick said as much when he came out.


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

Just checked the rogues gallery, and apparently no, 'anyone' couldn't do it.  He's the ONLY PC with the ability to do what he did.
None of the rest of us can cast a swift action "you fall down, no save, no attack roll" spell (Well, without killing...)

I don't see how it's NOT Impressive.  If he'd done it to an NPC or a monster, I think you'd probably agree, but since he did it to a PC (particularily you), this generates bad feelings and blinds you to the thematics of what happened.

As to your problem of "why do we have to impress them if they invited us here, they know what we're capable of"... it's because they may not know EVERYTHING we're capable of.  They know we're good enough to be here, but they want us to show them WHY, by doing something we think is impressive/cool/whatever.  I created a massive pillar with stone dragon statues and shot fireworks from their mouth, then crushed them together b/c *I* thought it would LOOK impressive.  the level of the spell/spells used does not matter.  The only reason I used a 9th level spell in my demonstration is b/c Metoer Swarm was the only way I had of creating multiple fireworks.

You're focusing ENTIRELY on "all he did was cast an X level spell"... that's not the point.  IF that was WAS the point, then all any of us would have to do to 'impress' them would be walk out and go "Look, a 9th level spell, I'm cool".  The fact that he's the only PC capable of casting it means it is obviously NOT such a well known and common spell.  The fact that he did what he did WITHOUT using a 9th level spell, and that he did it as a SWIFT action (walking by and seeming to exert no effort) is the impressive part.  
If he'd done the exact same thing to someone else with a 9th level spell, would you be more or less impressed?


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

Would it be impressive if I used power word: kill?  No, because it's a power word spell.  The ability to cast a power word spell isn't any more impressive than anyone else's ability to cast a power word spell, because there's no DC  It just works.  It wouldn't have been impressive if he cast it on an NPC, just as it wasn't impressive that Halford cast disintegrate on a helpless victim.  We all know we're capable of casting those spells, simply casting them at each other proves nothing except that we are foolish enough to think that they'd invite us here because of our abilities to cast spells of that level and then ask us to impress them by doing nothing more than casting spells of that level.  That's all he did.  There was no flash, no creativity, nothing.  He just cast Power Word spells on an unsuspecting peer and then gloated about it.  I could do the same thing to your character.  I could make him dance like an idiot for 1d4+1 rounds.  Yes, I know the Irresistible Dance spell.  It's not exactly hard to know at level 20.

If you personally find that impressive that's up to you, but I find it obvious.


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

If you actually managed to do it, I WOULD find it impressive.  Go ahead and try though, and you'll find that it's not so easy as it looks.  A good mage has ways of avoiding the 'obvious' spells.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

The spell has no save.  Unless you have some specific defense against it that you always have deployed you would fall for power word pain just as quickly as Nick did.


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

Unfortunately I'm not going to reveal how I would stop it until it actually happens, b/c that would put me at a disadvantage in the future if people knew my defenses.  You'll probably see it portrayed in my first duel, but lets just say I could be fully unbuffed and naked and it would still work.  by the rules.  with no cheese or lawyering needed.

You could Pick a fight with me, hope someone else does, or just be patient and find out eventually.


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

*sits back and sighs as everyone starts disecting his character sheet*
I should really stop bragging.. *L*


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm still wondering why everyone else is so damn concerned about out munchkinning each other.  I thought this was D&D, not WoW.  If this ridiculous competition is going to make up the bulk of this game you can count me out.


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## Jemal (Jun 9, 2008)

High level mages are Competitive by nature, and we've allready been told that Duels will be a part of this experience, leading one to believe that such things are indeed important... 
*Sigh* Actually, you know what, i'm too freakin tired to get into THIS argument yet again, so I'm just gonna sum up my opinion quickly and then log off:

Being powerful and/or competitive is not necesarily a bad thing, and if such is your belief, then I for one am happy to see you go.  

All you've done so far is whine about how you don't know what your doing, and then you have the audacity to turn around tell us that the way we play is wrong?  I'm gonna stop before I say anything else.


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## OutlawJT (Jun 9, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Outlaw - the DM's made it clear on a few occasions that he will not just add sources, you HAVE to ask for specifics, including page numbers (which class, what feats, what powers, etc)
> Word.




First, I didn't realize you were the DM Jemal. Thank you for answering my question. I only started browsing this board a few days ago and when this RPG caught my attention there were over 18 pages. Forgive me for not reading through all of them to know whether what I wanted to ask had been covered in some way.
Second, there's only one mage class in the book so I was fairly certain he wouldn't have a problem finding it if he was willing to consider allowing it. If he is willing, all it takes is reading the table of contents to locate the class in question (Jade Phoenix Mage). If he is unwilling to consider it, no problem I can come up with another idea or two to apply to the game. If someone couldn't find the class I want to play by simply opening the book I am asking about I highly doubt they'd be trying to run a game as ambitious and high level as this.

I'd appreciate if you didn't vent your frustrations about other player's at me by rudely answering a question I was addressing to the DM, Jemal. It is rude and disrespectful. This is a game that all of us are here to try to enjoy so we should all try to play nice. Leave it to the DM to answer questions that are being addressed to the DM!


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Confusing it with Command I guess.
> 
> The point is, inflicting the effects of those spells on someone doesn't really prove anything except that you're able to cast them since they don't give a save.  And we've all got level 9 spells.
> 
> I didn't notice that disintegrate at all.  Nick wouldn't have accepted his offer of hospitality if I had...  He doesn't feel secure hanging around psychopaths.



Psycopath may be a bit much.
BTW, will the mage reappear (because killed by a spell) but still be paralyzed (supernatural ability)?



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Well then, good thing Nick didn't notice.   Hey, look at it this way : If you DON'T join us in the 'cool kids clubhouse', Poor Elzmyr's gonna be stuck around all these evil psycopaths as peers and may give in to peer pressure.. Help me obi-wan, you're my only hope!



Petition to rename 'Magnificent Mansion' into 'cool kids clubhouse'!   



			
				Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> I'm still wondering why everyone else is so damn concerned about out munchkinning each other.  I thought this was D&D, not WoW.  If this ridiculous competition is going to make up the bulk of this game you can count me out.



Hey, I play a sigle classed character (no level dip for telepathy and better advanced learning; you munchkin    )
I think the adults would be fun combats to learn higher spellcasting mechanics outtime and the rest of the adventure will be something like Harry Potter for adults (no porn!).


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

OutlawJT said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> I'd appreciate if you didn't vent your frustrations about other player's at me by rudely answering a question I was addressing to the DM, Jemal. It is rude and disrespectful. This is a game that all of us are here to try to enjoy so we should all try to play nice. Leave it to the DM to answer questions that are being addressed to the DM!



I think, that answering the questions, that you have because you _couldn't_ read 18 pages, was rather nice of Jemal.

For the record, if I ask a question and someone can answer it, please do it.


> If someone couldn't find the class I want to play by simply opening the book I am asking about I highly doubt they'd be trying to run a game as ambitious and high level as this.



That, I think, was impolite. Albedo requested us to give page numbers and specific details. You shouldn't force him to search for a prestige class you are requesting.

No hard feelings, but I think Jemal knows more about board etiquette than you.


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## Halford (Jun 9, 2008)

OutlawJT: I think you are misinterpreting Jemal's remark - he was simply pointing out that Albedo had previously asked for people to specify rather than ask for whole sources, not trying to be rude, but rather helpful.

Dire Lemming: Many of the characters are by their very nature show offs, most of their actions make perfect sense.  Part of the thrill of playing casters, at least for me, is the struggle to out plan one another with clever uses and protections against spells.  Think of it as ultimate rock paper scissors.

Maybe this is not the game for you, I'll be sad to see you go as I've had fun chatting, but not everyone has the same tastes.  As for Halford's disintergrate I doubt it would have worked on many of the PCs, and he was using it to avoid looking like he could do something which is both appropriate for his alignment NE, for his haracter he likes to be liked and respected and demonstrated his own ruthlessness mostly to the Lich who he was particularily concerned about - he currently has little recourse against that touch!.  

Though I have not spelled it out Halford himself would be under the effects of a multitude of defensve spells....

Spell Turning
Greater Spell Immunity (Otto's Irresistable Dance, Disintergrate, Power Word Stun, Horrid Wilting, Finger of Death, Polar Ray) Cast at CL 24
Ray Deflection
Anticipate Teleportation Greater
Energy Immunity Fire
Resistance Superior

For my own part I've had a great deal of fun bickering with people in the thread and hope that nobody has taken things in the wrong way.  It is always best to take things in the best possible way of forums becausewritten words are devoid of context.

On a side note I do find almost all of the effects used thus far impressive.  Power Word Pain seems to have caused a greater stir than ought to though, still impressive, but a quickened spell that does 1d6 points of damage for a couple of rounds is no big deal at this level - worked well for the character though.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> ...As for Halford's disintergrate I doubt it would have worked on many of the PCs, and he was using it to avoid looking like he could do something which is both appropriate for his alignment NE, for his haracter he likes to be liked and respected and demonstrated his own ruthlessness mostly to the Lich who he was particularily concerned about - he currently has little recourse against that touch!...



That is the beauty of evil organisations. Show each other that you are dangerous enough, that it would be in everyones best interest to work with and not against you.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm not saying it wasn't in character, but he did just randomly murder someone which seems pretty psychotic to me.  The fact that he actually even has a justification for it in that he didn't want to appear foolish by being unsuccessful in _helping_ him only backs it up.  I'm sure we disagree over the use of the word though and will never come to a satisfactory conclusion so there's no point in debating it..


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## Halford (Jun 9, 2008)

Exactly!  "Hmmm, you worry me, lets be friends!"

Incidently could a Lich lower his immunity to mind effecting things for something like Bardic Music?  I doubt it, but its interesting as it implies that becoming a Lich actually prevents you from being inspired by music, etc.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

Seems fair to me.  It just seems to fit.

I do want to know what Albedo has to say about his intentions for the direction of the game because I don't want to play if we're all going to spend our time trying to one up each other.  I get enough of that in video games and real life.

RPGs are one of the few remaining  types of game that isn't about ganking everyone else.


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## Halford (Jun 9, 2008)

Well yeah, but he turned him into a pile of dust.  Psychotic I'll grant, but also cool!  If I saw a villain do that I'd be impressed, even if I were capable of the same thing myself.

These are high level casters and this is essentially the first annual meeting of the biggest fish in the pond club.  Everyone is showing off and strutting their stuff.  Like going to prison, if you can show you're one tough hombre early enough people will hopefully avoid messing with you in the future - disclaimer, I am baseing my prison description on my extensive experience of having watched about three episodes of Oz and the Shawshank Redemption.

Hopefully once the first impressions are finalized you will feel less of the one upsmanship, though I doubt we will be free of it entirely.  I am curious to see what encounters Albedo will provide!


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

Halford said:
			
		

> Exactly!  "Hmmm, you worry me, lets be friends!"
> 
> Incidently could a Lich lower his immunity to mind effecting things for something like Bardic Music?  I doubt it, but its interesting as it implies that becoming a Lich actually prevents you from being inspired by music, etc.



Yes, I think this is one of the flaws of being undead.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

Only problem with that is, this isn't prison, and we're not the biggest fish... or else we wouldn't be here.


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## Halford (Jun 9, 2008)

Ah, but aren't we, and isn't it?

No?  Well, errr.

*Halford casts stretch analogy*

We at least were the biggest fish, and having now been promoted to the big boy pond we are trying to reestablish our place in the pecking order. Yeah, thats it...


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## Halford (Jun 9, 2008)

Incidently Jemal you said you had a question for me in the IC thread.  Was that the one, about Fireballs and Contingency's? - which I hope has since been resolved to everyone's saisfaction in a kind DM rule works great, but in my games I'll go with my interpretaion kinda way.

As to the clever uses, I see these "clever" tricks all the time, all the time.  And I have used them myself, for example I had a Druid who once used greater Stoneshpe to seperate a vast block of stone in a cavern ceiling atop of several dozen giants, I did it once it was very efective I never did it again.  I suppose my thinking goes something like this....

Shrink Item is a third level spell, its power should be comparable to other 3rd level spells, if there is a way to exploit shrink item which makes it better than comparable spells of significantly higher level then shrink item ought not be allowed to be used in that way.

It also matters how someone comes to a "clever" usage of a spell - for me at least.  If they read a spell and figure out said clever usage, for example, that is preferable to I did this once and it worked great so I'll do it agin, or the even worse I read about someone who did this so I will repeat it.

I don't know I guess I like power gameing, but somethings seem too easy.  Polymorph is so wonderfully exploitable I cannot bring myself to use it, sure its kinda cool the first time the Wizard changes the Fighter into a Hydra, but when it becomes a default combat measure, not so much.  As for Shapechange, 'e gads!  Even with Monster Manual only available there are forms that for our purposes are almost instant win, I won't say what forms, but they have not cropped up yet.


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## Albedo (Jun 9, 2008)

OutlawJT: I don't allow general sources, so I'm saying no to Tome of Battle.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

So Albedo, are we going to have to spend a large amount of time trying to gank each other and not get ganked ourselves?  Because I'm both far too inexperienced at that kind of thing to stand a chance, and don't find it much fun.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 9, 2008)

Dire Lemming:  I do have to say that I'm a little offended with the way you describe my character's entrance.  No flash, class, etc. 

First off, let me say again that I wasn't out to get you.  I was originally going to use a high powered vampiric touch or your summon and then high five the lich.  When I realized your summon was gone, I had to make up a better option, which was to hit one of his 'peers' with a spell.

The whole point of Alphina's entrance, as Halford hit on the nose, was to point out "Don't mess with me."  Its the same reason Alphina is going to carry around a Scythe 24/7 as deterance.  My original entrance was going to show off the fact that Alphina could cast an effectively 12th level metamagic spell, but that kinda fell through =/

Finally, I have to agree with Jemal here, You do decent posts, and your character is nifty.  That said, Maybe this really isn't your kind of game.  I mean, just to put it simply, what DOES your charachter do?  He's a pacifist, so he doesn't want to fight anyone, and since this isn't a traditional game, at least from what I can tell, we're rarely going to get spoon fed into a party situation where your character 'has' to fight.

Now, I'm not saying that this campaign is going to 24/7 combat.  But hell, its dozens of high level egos... er... mages, crammed together.  People are going to argue.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

Arguing is no problem.  Nick is great at arguing.  Alphina wasn't arguing though.  He was just bullying someone who appeared weak.  At least that's the way it looked to me.

I'm sorry if I offended you but I honestly didn't think you would consider what he did flashy/classy.

He specifically picked the guy who'd given the least impressive performance, and made the most humble remarks, and then he didn't even challenge him, but instead snuck up behind him and ambushed him with an irresistible spell.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 9, 2008)

Okay, I'll give. It wasn't paticularly flashy.  Impressive?  Being able to lay a 20th level spellcaster low with simple spells is a bit more impressive.

I would also like to point out that the defence against the Power Word: spell line is on your spell list (Mindblank).  That and trust me, The one he used was better than the alternitive (Quickened, Empowered, Sudden Maximized Vampiric touch.)

And arguements generally lead to fights.  Paticularly in a place such as this where even death is largely irrelivent, and fighting is less dangerous for everyone involved.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

Vincent Tempes said:
			
		

> Okay, I'll give. It wasn't paticularly flashy.  Impressive?  Being able to lay a 20th level spellcaster low with simple spells is a bit more impressive.
> 
> I would also like to point out that the defence against the Power Word: spell line is on your spell list (Mindblank).  That and trust me, The one he used was better than the alternitive (Quickened, Empowered, Sudden Maximized Vampiric touch.)
> 
> And arguements generally lead to fights.  Paticularly in a place such as this where even death is largely irrelivent, and fighting is less dangerous for everyone involved.




I'm sorry but I just don't see what's so impressive about ambushing anyone with an irresistible spell.  He could have sucker-punched him and gotten the exact same effect.

Arguments generally turn into fights when the parties involved don't actually care about proving their point and just want to put down their opponent.  That's not an argument, it's a couple of morons yelling at each other.

"1 and 1 is 2!"

"Nu uh, 1 and 1 is 11, you dumb!"

"Nuh uh!  You dumb!"

"Yarg!  There I punch your face, that prove I right."

"Rawr!  I kick your balls, that prove I righter- er...  What I right about?"

People with superhuman intelligence are generally smarter than that.


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

Problem is: Most of us are incredible charismatic, not intelligent


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm also skeptical about a magic user who gets into fights every time they argue and gets into frequent arguments surviving long enough to reach level twenty.  We aren't exactly brawlers. :\


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 9, 2008)

Once again, I'm going to go with Jemal here and just stop the arguement, because I'm honestly starting to get a little annoyed.  People fight because they argue and tempes flair, not because they are all retarded.

You think my presentation was flawed. Fair enough, I'll admit I wasn't paticularly impressed by "Look, I can make a dragon dance with a 9th level spell." *Shrug*

And finally, I have a feeling my character had a much better chance of hitting 20.  He is ruthless and and quite willing to stomp out anything that gets in his way. 

I'm more skeptical about a mage who is apparently willing to let anyone walk over him just to avoid a fight.  Take this as a learning experience and maybe precast a few common defensive spells.

Sorry if that comes off rude, having an ugh day. *Goes to finish his spell list.*


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## Voadam (Jun 9, 2008)

Albedo said:
			
		

> Vincent: Powerword Pain is fine.




I remember power word pain being discussed when it was introduced in an FR book. People were saying it was an example of a ridiculously broken spell. 

IIRC it was a second level spell that inflicted an insignificant minor amount of damage but also incapacitated a target with no save for a number of rounds. Significantly more powerful than the 7th level Power Word Stun.

I think the only defenses were SR and being immune to the type of magic it was.

What's the wording for it in Races of Dragon?


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## Walking Dad (Jun 9, 2008)

A level one spell:

Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

You utter a single word of power that instantly deals 1d6 points of damage to one creature of your choice, and another 1d6 points in every round thereafter for as long as the spell lasts.
The duration of the spell depends on the target’s current hit point total, as shown below. Any creature that currently has 101 or more hit points is unaffected by power word pain.


```
Hit Points              Duration
50 or less             4d4 rounds
51–75                  2d4 rounds
76–100                1d4 rounds
```


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## Halford (Jun 9, 2008)

[Sblock=Quote]As the human collapsed, rolling in agony he continued his pacing, the corners of his mouth touching at a gentle smile. "Don't worry, he's just in pain." He murmured, chuckling as he approached the group.[/Sblock]

I think the description of power word pain was a little over egged.  1d6 of damage, for a 20th level character is more likely to engender an, "Ow, stop that." than a collapse.  This was probably confusing to those not familiar with the spell.


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## Voadam (Jun 9, 2008)

Ah, so it is just ridiculous damage for a 1st level spell. 4-16 d6's with no applicable elemental resistances/immunities for a first level spell that a 1st level caster can do. About 10d6, as much damage as two max caster level magic missiles with no shield defense.

2nd level acid arrow only does up to 14d4 damage and you have to be at least 18th level.

Granted, an _unwounded _ 20th level wizard with a 14 con will have about 70 hp and only take 2-8d6 no save and it is not quick enough damage to be very useful in an arena spell duel or to affect many level appropriate CR'd encounter monsters/adversaries.

Does power word pain require a special draconic feat to use?


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## Halford (Jun 9, 2008)

No, no it does not.  Don't get me wrong Voadam I am not saying I would allow it in a on a month of sundays, at this level it doesn't really matter, but at low levels cast it runaway and your opponent dies - ludicrous.


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## Albedo (Jun 10, 2008)

You know, while the spell is certainly a kick in the teeth, it is hardly unmanageable. Getting away at lower levels can be much more difficult than you would make it seem, and honestly a greatsword fighter can top that damage very easily, especially when you take into account you only take 1d6 a round, rather than taking the damage lump sum. You would be better off magic missiling your opponent to death. And if they have a healer, it just requires minor attention every few rounds to negate the effects. Honestly doesn't seem that good to me after like third level.

Now I do understand the application of a near automatic death, but consider that as a PC, this only really matters with imporant NPCs. Standard battles with low level minions, who cares if they die out eventually after they beat you up. Monsters, same thing. The only truly scary application of this spell is a DM using it against PCs, which shouldn't happen unless your DM is a jerk.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 10, 2008)

Well the usage here was a PC using it on a PC.  Considering that we're all arcane spell casters with fairly low HP and fairly high Will saves, that spell is extremely dangerous.  If it's BS at low levels it doesn't become not BS at high levels just because I can survive three of them instead of one.

Also, Vincent described it like it had some sort of paralysis effect but really all it does is damage.  I really don't appreciate it when someone takes over my character, especially if it's not even the DM.  Of course it does way too much damage for a level one spell.

Did I get my HP back from Alphina's attack?  Also, you mentioned that I should trade out Lesser Geas for something else, but do you have any suggestions?


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 10, 2008)

After glancing back at the spell, I'll first off appologize.  I actually misread the spell effects (Getting it confused with the Symbol of Pain style of spell).  It actually makes a lot more sense now (It seemed a bit odd that a level 1 spell was so strong.  Though ironically, this version is worse in its own way.)

Feel free to replace Power Word: Pain with Stun.  I hadn't used my standard action in the round, so the effect isn't changed, instead of being stunned in pain for two rounds, you were merely stunned with... well, stun.


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## Halford (Jun 10, 2008)

Well as a DM its more the run into the big bads room, cast and expeditious retreat away approach that scares me.  But for our purposes it really does not matter.  DM rules it in so its in, simple as that.

Please understand Albedo I am not trying to critisize your choices when I say that I would not allow spell x.  One of the reasons DnD is such a great game is that the experience is ever the same, and though I don't always agree with my DMs decisions I am always 100% behind their right to make them.  I have not got the impression you've been upset just preemptively putting this out there   .

And I hope you will all understand that I love argueing and mean no offense when I do - feel free to tell me to put a sock in it!


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## Jemal (Jun 10, 2008)

OK, 2 pages worth of posts to respond to.. yikes, here goes : 

Just as a heads up for those who don't know me - I have opinions, and I'm very forward about stating my opinions.  I usually don't worry about who disagrees with me or how, I just say what I have to say and keep going.  I attempt to avoid saying things that will Specifically piss somebody off, or getting into flame wars, but if I disagree with you, I WILL tell you so.  
[joke]If you don't like that, then don't disagree with me. [/joke]



			
				OutlawJT said:
			
		

> First, I didn't realize you were the DM Jemal. Thank you for answering my question. I only started browsing this board a few days ago and when this RPG caught my attention there were over 18 pages. Forgive me for not reading through all of them to know whether what I wanted to ask had been covered in some way.
> *SNIP*
> I'd appreciate if you didn't vent your frustrations about other player's at me by rudely answering a question I was addressing to the DM, Jemal. It is rude and disrespectful. This is a game that all of us are here to try to enjoy so we should all try to play nice. Leave it to the DM to answer questions that are being addressed to the DM!



First: 
I'm NOT the DM as you obviously know, and *I* would appreciate it if you aimed your sarcastic quips elsewhere.  I was neither rude nor venting my frustrations.  If I'm frustrated or angry at someone, I make it known, but I do not take it out on others.  My way of speaking is (as has been stated before) rather straightforward, and I apologize if you see straightforward speech as rude, but it won't change the way I talk.  
Second:
The question you asked has been asked several times.  I'm wasn't saying I expected you to read all of the thread, but as the answer was the same the first few times, and I have allready answered the same way to this question before on the DM's behalf, I felt it was not overstepping my bounds.  Albedo hasn't seemed to mind me pitching in opinions and reiterating answers he's allready given, and until he tells me to stop, I'm gonna go on making his life simpler.  If you haven't noticed, we tend to do a lot of posting in between his posts, and unlike you, he can't just skip them, so if we can resolve something without having to wait for him, so much the better.
Finally : You're welcome.

Thanks to those of you whom have allready..er.. 'defended' me. 

Dire Lemming - YOU I may owe an apology to.  I was ticked at you during my last post, and although I meant what I said at the time, I perhaps should not have said it in such an antagonistic manner.  I do believe your pacifistic mage will fit in nicely, and hope our OOC disagreement will not affect our IC ability to work together.

Halford - Yes, that question has been answered allready.  Also, I must still disagree with you, if I think a spell is cool, I'll continue thinking a spell is cool, whether others think it's broken/overpowered/overused/whatever doesn't matter to me.  I use spells I find interesting.
Although, I do love arguing as well, so if you want to continue, I'd be delighted to keep going at it with someone who knows I'm not making it personal. 

Random: 
I Agree with Vincent that arguments amongst cocky/confident/arrogant people can and often do turn into fights, especially if and when there are few or no lasting consequences.

Voadam - Hey, just noticed you didn't post at all during our little fun-time, Your Drow too good to play with the rest of the kids?  (j/k, though you should post with us more.  )


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## Halford (Jun 10, 2008)

I'd be with you Jemal except all of my peers are quite adept when it comes to lateral thinking, if I did not ban cool spells, there wouldn't be a battle that was not ended by a ceiling being polymorphed into green slime, or hydras with flurry of blows.

I still think this leaves plenty of room for cool and ingenious plots.  My wizard for example has been plotting to steal a boat by using fabricate to turn it into a slightly different looking boat.

I don't have a problem with you folks using them, I just won't I like a bit more of a challenge and there are some forms that are, as I have mentioned, instant win.

Guess what I think the most broken MMI form for Shapechange is and win a cookie!

While I'm nattering anyone care to share their thoughts on 4th edition so far?  I am finding it a trifle dissapointing so far, and that makes me sad because trifles should never be dissapointing it sets a bad presedent.


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## Jemal (Jun 10, 2008)

ALSO, to the DM - I have one or two changes I'd like to make to my character sheet, they're minor (non-combat even. ) spell changes that are more suiting to the character.  I also removed a spell or two b/c I realized I knew too many.

Knew spell list: 
[sblock=Elzmyr's Spells]
Sorc Spellcasting (CL: 20)
Level (Per day) - Known - List
Cantrip (6) - 9 - Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Open/Close, Arcane Mark, Amanuesis*, Launch Item*,
1st (8) - 5 - Comprehend Languages(200 min), Shield(20 rounds), Magic Missile, Mage Armour(20 hours), Serene Visage(+10 Bluff, 20 min)*
2nd (8) - 5 - Minor Image(Concentration), Scorching Ray, See Invisible(200 min), Combust*, Earthbind(FortDC20)*, Speak to Allies*(200 min)
3rd (7) - 4 - Lightning Bolt(Ref DC21), Elzmyr's Sight (Arcane Sight), Chain Missile*, False Gravity*(20 min), 
4th (7) - 4 - Stone Shape, Elzmyr's Energy Orb(Orb of Fire)*, Flight of the Dragon(210 min)*, Ruin Delver's Fortune*, Celerity#
5th (7) - 4 - Fabricate, Telekinesis(Will DC23), Field of Resistance#, Moonbow*, Greater Blink*(2 min), Dragonsight[200' darkvision, 100' Blindsight]*(20 hour)
6th (7) - 4 - Probe Thoughts*(Will DC22), Disintegrate(Fort DC24), 2 lvl 5
7th (6) - 3 - Greater Teleport, Elzmyr's Sword, Elzmyr's Mansion
8th (6) - 3 - Polymorph Any Object(Fort DC26), Elzmyr's Energy Ray(Polar Ray), Moment of Presience
9th (6) - 3 - Elzmyr's Disjunction, Meteor Swarm(Ref DC27), Shapechange
[/sblock]

So, acceptable?


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## Jemal (Jun 10, 2008)

Halford - I don't believe in the Kobyashi Maru, so I disagree with declaring something an 'instant win'.  

re: Shapechange I don't know what you think it is, but I know what some of mine are: 
SOLAR (just yeah)
Nymph (gogo cha to ac)
Great Red Wyrm (duh?)
Pit Fiend (Highest AC I've ever seen in a 'Core Only' game involves Shapechanging into a Pit Fiend).
12-headed Hydra (best Fast Healing in the game)

I'm gonna withold commenting on 4th ed till my RL group has finished the playtest and I've had a chance to read our books (which are still in the mail.  )


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm curious about something.  Why does everyone seem to think Nick is a pacifist?


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 11, 2008)

Avoiding fights, lack of any real form of direct damage? *Shrugs a lil*


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## Halford (Jun 11, 2008)

Nope, its CR is much lower.  And of course instant win is perhaps an exageration, but not far from it.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 11, 2008)

Vincent Tempes said:
			
		

> Avoiding fights, lack of any real form of direct damage? *Shrugs a lil*




I guess you're not counting whelm spells so might I just remind you that he's a Beguiler/Mindbender?  They make others do the damage for them.

As for avoiding fights.  He only avoided one fight, the one Alphina tried to lure him into when he was at a clear disadvantage.  Given Alphina's actions up until then he concluded that Alphina was a coward, a bully, and not worth the trouble of trying to win, nor the possibility that he might lose such an unfavorable battle.

He does have Intelligence 20 and Charisma 16.


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## Jemal (Jun 11, 2008)

Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> As for avoiding fights.  He only avoided one fight, the one Alphina tried to lure him into when he was at a clear disadvantage.  Given Alphina's actions up until then he concluded that Alphina was a coward, a bully, and not worth the trouble of trying to win, nor the possibility that he might lose such an unfavorable battle.



Aye, but you also said (repeatedly) that your character was made for avoiding fights, which is where people are getting the 'avoiding fights' from.



> He does have Intelligence 20 and Charisma 16.



Um.. nobody said he was stupid or such, I'm just wondering why you felt you needed to point that out..


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## Jemal (Jun 11, 2008)

Halford - OK, I give, there's way too many useful monsters, in order to guess I'd have to list every monster that has a unique ability or power, or a powerful combination of abilities.


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## Halford (Jun 11, 2008)

Well on the understanding that anyone who didn't know about this isn't going to use it...

The Choker:

Quickness (Su)
Although not particularly dexterous, a choker is supernaturally quick. It can take an extra standard action or move action during its turn each round. 

Free quicken for a ninth level spell anyone?  Use a standard action to turn and then take another one in the same round...  Choker's can speak and almost certainly have the ability to manipulate spell components.

Shapechange, all sorts of broken.


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## Albedo (Jun 11, 2008)

Halford, chokers are pretty cool, but honestly I think my favorite in a campaign that lacks freedom of movement would have to be a mindflayer.


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## Jemal (Jun 11, 2008)

Few things Ford : 
First, you're not using Shapechange for shapechange, you're using it for 3.0 haste.  As a 9th lvl spell available to most high lvl casters, I don't see that as being all that broken.  Mutually assured destruction applies here (Monkey see, Monkey do).
Secondly, while chokers do seem to have the ability to manipulate components, it's a DM's call as to whether or not their 'hands' (or, as the MM refers to them, 'tentacles with multiple knobby joints of cartilage) are capable of performing the somatic's required of some spellcasting.
Thirdly, IIRC, All gear worn/items carried are merged into your form when you change shape and become nonfunctional, so in order to cast any of the spells which require a focus and/or material components, you'd have to set said components down on the ground, change shape, and then pick them up (Or have some other way of not holding them when you change shape).
Finally, b/c all gear is removed, you loose any enhancements/protections/buffs from said gear.  While this doesn't apply so much to us right now as we don't HAVE any gear, it DOES still matter.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 11, 2008)

Jemal said:
			
		

> Aye, but you also said (repeatedly) that your character was made for avoiding fights, which is where people are getting the 'avoiding fights' from.
> 
> 
> Um.. nobody said he was stupid or such, I'm just wondering why you felt you needed to point that out..




Sure, that doesn't mean he won't fight if he can't avoid one or it serves his purpose.  A pacifist is someone who believes that violence is never necessary.  Nick is willing to start two other people fighting if it serves his purposes.

I stated his ability scores to emphasize that Nick doesn't get into fights where he is at a disadvantage and has nothing to gain.  He's more intelligent and charismatic than that.


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## Halford (Jun 11, 2008)

You have a point Jemal, but I am confident that in a match up against almost any other combatant an extra standard action every round is worth it.  Someone well set up for this trick can be prebuffed with ongoing spell effects, or even buff whilst in Choker form using the extra standard action.

Frankly it ends up in an exponentialy higher success chance, double the number of save or dies, buff, etc.  Double the number of prep spells in a Timestop.  You take a free action to drop any spell components or Foci you feel you will need and a move to pick them up. I'll admit that if the DM rules that it cannot manipulate components its next to useless, but looking at both the figure and picture in the MMI that seems to be somewhat unreasonable.

As for a ninth level spell being spent for 3.0 Haste, well yeah, 3.0 haste was amazing!  Well worth a ninth level spell!

Ah, well I'd take it...

I'll take a look at Mindflayer, but its been a long time since I studied up on my polymorph cheese...


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 11, 2008)

Gee, I sure am glad you're all talking about so many ways to exploit a spell my character will never be able to cast. :\

Alright, since people seem to think I really need a spell that can kill people, how about replacing less geas with Phantasmal Killer?  Sound good?  Suggestions?


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## Walking Dad (Jun 11, 2008)

Hey I'm also "burdened" with a fixed spell list. At last you got some pre-buffs   

About Phantasmal Killer, it is one of the worst spells in game.
A save or die with two different saves, It is also fear and mind-affecting (that makes vermin, paladins, undead etc. immune to it). Finally it allows spell-resistance.


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 11, 2008)

Ok... thanks for the suggestion... :\


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## Graybeard (Jun 11, 2008)

A choker? Interesting choice. I can understand the reasoning because of the extra standard action. It would be up to the DM if he allowed that extra standard to be used to cast spells. Some don't allow it to be used that way. 

Other monsters that are interesting would be Titan, Purples Worm, or Dread Wraith. Too many good choices overall. choice is a good thing though. I always find it interesting to see what creatures someone will pick from the monster manual to turn into. I have a friend who always uses Polymorph to turn into elementals and nothing else. His explanation is that he likes elementals so that's what he chooses to turn into. 

Some really interesting discussions so far.


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## Vincent Tempes (Jun 11, 2008)

*Away!*

Oi, due to circumstances beyond my control, I'm going to be away from the interweb for the next few days.  I'll likely be back as early as friday/saturday... Feel free to NPC me as need be, and sorry bout this!


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## Albedo (Jun 11, 2008)

KerlanRayne: You posted an entrance, but you haven't posted what you have done real time. After your done, I can progress the story (since Vince is away  )


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 12, 2008)

Oh well, at least that means Nick won't have to deal with him for a while. 

Does anyone have a suggestion for a spell to replace Lesser Geas with?


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## KerlanRayne (Jun 12, 2008)

Albedo said:
			
		

> KerlanRayne: You posted an entrance, but you haven't posted what you have done real time. After your done, I can progress the story (since Vince is away  )



Oh, sorry. I wanted to make sure the entrance was acceptable first. I'll do the up to date post now. 







			
				Dire Lemming said:
			
		

> Does anyone have a suggestion for a spell to replace Lesser Geas with?



How about Greater Rebuke, Greater Mirror Image, or Shadow Well?


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## Dire Lemming (Jun 12, 2008)

None of those are in the PHB, so I don't know what the do.


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## Voadam (Jun 17, 2008)

I will be on vacation and expect to be without internet access from 6/21 through 6/30.


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## Jemal (Jun 18, 2008)

BTW, Albedo I posted a question to the teacher dude, asking his name if you hadn't noticed..  Also I think it's safe to say we're heading to the transmutation Seminar.


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## Halford (Jun 18, 2008)

Added a couple of MW whips and a MW Rapier to Halford's equipment after realizing he was weaponless.

I also posted asking about the arena format and for a demonstration of this new teacher's abilities.

I will also head to the seminar after we're done chatting with the teacher.


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## Walking Dad (Jul 5, 2008)

Edit:

I consider this game pending.

Send me a PM, if you continue, please.


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## Dire Lemming (Jul 6, 2008)

Another dead game... and unfortunately, neither necromancer nor cleric can do anything about it...


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## Graybeard (Jul 6, 2008)

I was wondering what was going on with this game as well.


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## Halford (Jul 6, 2008)

*Sigh*


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