# Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin



## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

This thread continues BOZ's idea of “cooperative conversions”, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on animals and vermin from various D&D sources that either exist in the real world, are giant versions thereof, or are slight variants of real world creatures.  This does not cover dinosaurs or prehistoric animals, as they are covered in this thread.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

The following is a list of prehistoric animals from various that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog. You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when. If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.  (With thanks to Echohawk for the lists).

From _Monster Manual II_:

Crane, Giant
Swordfish

From _Adventure Pack I_ (I13):

Ape, Giant
Caterpillar, Giant
Mouse, Giant
Rat, Gigantic
Walking Stick

From _Monstrous Compendium Volume One_ (MC1):

Boar, Warthog
Hornet
Rat, Giant

From _Monstrous Compendium Volume Two_ (MC2):

Hawk, Small (Falcon)
Lamprey, Normal
Lamprey, Giant
Mammal, Small, Beaver
Mammal, Small, Gopher
Mammal, Small, Muskrat
Mammal, Small, Opossum
Mammal, Small, Squirrel (Giant Black)
Mammal, Small, Woodchuck
Porcupine, Black
Porcupine, Brown

From _Monstrous Manual_:

Bat, Large
Bird, Kingfisher
Dog, War Dog
Dog, Wild Dog
Horse, Riding
Horse, Wild
Insect, Bumblebee
Insect, Fly, Bluebottle
Insect, Fly, Horsefly
Mammal, Gorilla
Mammal, Herd, Antelope
Snake, Sea, Giant
Urchin, Land
Whale, Giant


From _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume One_:

Dog, Saluqi
Snake, Giant Cobra


From _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two_:

Cat, Crypt, Large
Dog, Bog Hound
Dog, Bog Hound, Moor Hound
Fish, Subterranean, Irridescent Plecoe
Fish, Subterranean, Lemon Fish
Fish, Subterranean, Wattley
Mammal, Giant, Badger, Giant
Mammal, Giant, Beaver, Giant
Mammal, Giant, Otter, Giant
Mammal, Giant, Wolverine, Giant
Mammal, Herd, Ram, Giant
Mammal, Herd, Stag, Giant
Mammal, Herd, Stag, Wild
Snake, Serpent, Herald
Snake, Serpent, Teak
Turtle, Sea, Giant


From _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three_:

Beetle, Stink, Giant

From _Wizard's Spell Compendium, Volume Four_:

Hunting Hawk

From _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four_:

Anemone, Giant Sea
Clam, Giant, Carnivorous Scallop
Fish, Ascallion, Adult Female
Fish, Ascallion, Adult Male (Shadow)
Fish, Ascallion, Young
Fish, Deep Ocean, Angler Fish
Fish, Deep Ocean, Death Minnow
Fish, Deep Ocean, Gulper
Fish, Deep Ocean, Viperfish
Fish, Deep Ocean, Porcupine Fish
Fish, Deep Ocean, Ray, Electric
Fish, Deep Ocean, Grouper, Giant
Fish, Deep Ocean, Morena
Fish, Vurgens (Giant Gulper Eel)
Octopus, Octo-jelly
Octopus, Octo-jelly, Octo-hide
Octopus, Sea Demon, Greater
Octopus, Sea Demon, Lesser
Snake, Mahogany Constrictor
Starfish, Giant, Giant Sunstar

From _Monstrous Compendium Greyhawk Appendix_:

Iguana, Giant
Raven (Crow), Huge

From _Return to White Plume Mountain_:

Crab Swarm

From _Supplement II: Blackmoor_:

Giant Sea Spider

From _Dungeons & Dragons Rules Cyclopedia_:

Locust, Giant
Robber Fly
Termite, Water, Swamp


From _Creature Catalog_ (DMR2):

Scorpion, Normal
Spider, Giant, Hunting

Dragon Magazine:

Dragon #67: Barrel spider; Boleadore spider; Crab spider; Daddy Longlegs; Net-throwing/fishing spider; Jumping spider; Net-throwing/fishing spider; Raft/Swamp spider; Spitting spider; Wolf spider
Dragon #89: Horseshoe Crab, Giant; Shrike, Giant; 
Dragon #94: Betta, Giant; 
Dragon #95: Orangutan
Dragon #102: Dhole; Dingo; Bushdog; Dog, Feral; Cave Hyena; Short-Faced Hyena; Spotted Hyena; Striped Hyena
Dragon #111: Amoeba; Ceratium; Dictyostelium, Amoeba; Dictyostelium, Slug; Dictyostelium, Sporocarp; Dictyostelium, Spore; Elphidium; Euglena; Globigerina; Gonyaulax; Noctiluca; Paramecium; Peridinium, Small; Peridinium, Medium; Peridinium, Large
Dragon #115: Anaconda; Ram Python; Ringed Snake; Saw-Edged Scaled
Dragon #116: Sawfish/Sawshark
Dragon #165: Giant Archerfish; Giant Damselfish
Dragon #176: Agnath, electric; Armored Predatory Fish; Cacops; Cyclotosaurus; Eogyrinus; Eryops; Erythrosuchus; Estemennosuchus; Eurypterid (water scorpion); Opabinia, Giant; Platyhystrix, giant; Therapsid, early; Therapsid, giant
Dragon #190: Octopus, deep-dwelling; Super otter; Tube worm, giant, Carnivorous; Tube worm, giant, Common; 
Dragon #237: Lizard, Poisonous, Gila Monster; Lizard, Poisonous, Rough-skinned Newt; Snake, Poisonous, Boomslang; Snake, Poisonous, Bushmaster; Snake, Poisonous, Cobra; Snake, Poisonous, Fer-De-Lance; Snake, Poisonous, Black Mamba; Snake, Poisonous, Gaboon; Amphibian, Poisonous, Neotropical Toad
Dragon #250: Diving Beetle, Giant, Larva; Diving Beetle, Giant, Adult; Clownfish, Giant; Sea Cow
Dragon #269: Riding Pony; War Pony


Dungeon Magazine:

Giant Fanged Python (_Dungeon #15_, p63)
Giant Raccoon (_Dungeon #66_, p13)
Giant Sheep (_Dungeon #69_, p55)
Jumping Spiders, Large (_Dungeon #46_, p15)
Mammal, Tropical, Chimpanzee (_Dungeon #56_, p68)
Mammal, Tropical, Giant Hippo (_Dungeon #56_, p68)
Mammal, Tropical, Pygmy Hippo (_Dungeon #56_, p68)
Pigeons, Giant (_Dungeon #16_, p16)
Sea Gulls, Huge (_Dungeon #48_, p24)
White Boar (_Dungeon #37_, p47)


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

I can't pass up the opportunity to update something from the 1E MMII.    

Crane, Giant
Freq: Rare
# Appearing:  1-20
AC: 5
Move: 9"/18" (MC:C)
Hit Dice: 3
% in Lair: Nil
Treasure Type: Nil
# Attacks: 1
Damage: 1-10
SA: Nil
SD: Nil
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Animal
Alignment: Neutral
Size M (7' tall)
Level/XP Value: II/35 + 3/hp

Giant cranes are found in the same habitats as are ordinary cranes, herons, bitterns, and similar wading birds.  They hunt large fish in marshes and swamps, along the banks of watercourses, or on lake verges.  Although generally nonaggressive, giant cranes are protective of their mates, young, and nesting areas.  If more than 10 are encountered, it is 50% likely that each additional bird will be an immature specimen.  If 20 are encountered, there is a 50% chance that they are part of a great flock of 31-50 (1d20+30).  From 3-12 of the flock will be half-grown fledgelings.


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## JiCi (Jun 22, 2007)

The crane appears in the Books of Familiars, and here's the stats:

*Crane*
*Medium Animal*
*Hit Dice*: 1d8 (4 hp)
*Initiative*: +3
*Speed*: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 50 ft. (poor)
*Armor Class*: 13 (+3 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 10
*Base Attack/Grapple*: +0/-1
*Attack*: Bite –1 melee (1d4-1)
*Full Attack*: Bite –1 melee (1d4-1)
*Space/Reach*: 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks*: —-
*Special Qualities*: —-
*Saves*: Fort +2, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities*: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills*: Listen +7, Spot +7
*Feats*: Alertness
*Environment*: Any temperate aquatic
*Organization*: Solitary, pair or flock (4-16)
*Challenge Rating*: 1/6
*Treasure*: None
*Alignment*: Always neutral
*Advancement*: —-
*Level Adjustment*: —-
A large, wading waterfowl, the crane is a stately bird which perches
upon long legs. They are known for their loud, trumpeting call –
which can be heard for miles in any direction.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

There's also the ibis from Races of Faerun to work from.

Advancing an ibis from Tiny to Medium and 3 HD results in the following:

Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 50 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, wading
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +12
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse*, 1 more
Environment: Any marsh
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

Combat

Wading (Ex): Although it does not have a swim speed, a giant crane suffers no movement penalty when walking through water less deep than the length of its legs.

Skills: Giant cranes receive a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.*


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

Giant eagles, giant owls, and terror birds all have Dex 17, so we should probably bump the giant crane's to around that score.


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## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> From _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two_:
> 
> *Mammal, Giant, Badger, Giant*
> *Mammal, Giant, Beaver, Giant*
> ...



You've got the giant badger and beaver listed twice. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> You've got the giant badger and beaver listed twice.




They're really, really gigantic.    

I'll fix it.


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> They're really, really gigantic.



Titanic even. 

I think advancing the ibis works - you get get rid of weapon finesse as it's Str is now greater than it's Dex. It's a bonus feat so it doesn't actually affect anything.

How about Stealthy as the second feat. I can see the crane quietly stalking its prey before lunging with its beak.

I'm slightly concerned with the wading quality - we should probably state either how long the legs are or the depth of water the crane can wade through.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

Note that I proposed a Dex boost to 17, so its Dex would once again be better than its Str, making Weapon Finesse useful once more.    

Stealthy sounds fine.

I share your concerns about the wading ability.  I've found that whooping cranes are 5 feet tall, so they are probably the best normal crane to build from.  Unfortunately, I've Googled like  mad and can't find any indication of leg length other than that they are long.   Maybe we can just go with "half their height"?


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note that I proposed a Dex boost to 17, so its Dex would once again be better than its Str, making Weapon Finesse useful once more.



Missed that   



> Stealthy sounds fine.



Good



> I share your concerns about the wading ability.  I've found that whooping cranes are 5 feet tall, so they are probably the best normal crane to build from.  Unfortunately, I've Googled like  mad and can't find any indication of leg length other than that they are long.   Maybe we can just go with "half their height"?



I guess that should do. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

CR: 1?

Looks done - unless you want to expand on the flavour text.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

CR 1 seems right.  I'll add a little more flavor text based on standard cranes, and then we can move on.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Flavor text added.  I'll start the next one soon.


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## Mortis (Jul 4, 2007)

Shade

The Combat line for the giant stork in homebrews refers to the whooping crane rather than the giant crane.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Fixed.  Thanks for the catch.  I had whooping cranes on the mind when doing the writeup.


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## Mortis (Jul 6, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> The Combat line for the giant *stork* in homebrews refers to the whooping crane rather than the giant crane.



Where did stork come from?   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Where did stork come from?




I'm a bit of a bird brain at times.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

*Fish, Deep Ocean, Angler Fish*
Climate/Terrain:  Ocean depths
Freq:  Uncommon
Org:  Solitary
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Carnivor
Int:  Animal (1)
Treasure:  Nil
Align:  Neutral
# App:  1
AC:  8
Move:  Sw 12
HD:  8
THAC0:  13
# Att:  1
Dmg/Att: 2d8 (some species 1d4)
SA:  Swallows whole
SD: Nil
MR:  Nil
Size:  L (8' long)
Morale:  Elite (13)
XP:  1,400

The angler fish is, as its name implies, a fish that hunts the lightless depths by means of a natural "fishing line," sometimes even with a hook (not in the real-world creatures).  These bloated-looking things are clumsy swimmers, relying on their lures to cause prey to come to them.  Surface-dwellers have an illicium (the "fishing line," actually the modified first ray of the dorsal fin) that looks like a worm or similar creature; with deep-sea anglers, the illicium is luminous.  Some anglers don't have an illicium, relying instead on a luminous growth protruding from the roof or palate of the mouth.  These growths, in some fantastic species, might resemble anything from mounds of sunken treasure to a beautiful mermaid, both lying in a "cavern" chock full of "stalctites" and "stalagmites."  Most anglers are no bigger than a man's fist, though one surface-dwelling type is large enough to swallow ducks and geese and does so.

Combat for the angler fish generally consists of decoying the victim close enough to be attacked, with the teeth getting in one good bite (2d8 damage) and then simply holding the victim in place to be digested (1d8 damage per round).  Some anglers actually have one or more hooks at the end of the illicium.  With some fatanstic species of these fish, these hooks are functional and can be used to snare prey (1d4 points of damage), drawing it down to the mouth to be bitten automatically in the same round.  The angler fish's poor Armor Clas allows stabbing weapons to penetrate it relatively easily.  A swallowed prey takes as much damage from the attack as the fish.  The fish's teeth curve inward, so it can't even think about letting go, no matter how much opponents with tridents and daggers might make it wish it could.  Swallowing prey is the ultimate act of commitment.

In most species of angler fish, only the females do the hunting.  The male, only a fraction of the female's size, clings like a lamprey to her body, living off her as a parasite.  This works well for the angler fish; despite the darkness of the ocean depths and the fact that angler fish are few and far between, this system ensures that every fish always has a mate on hand when breeding season comes around.  What happens to the young is not known.

The angler fish is a typical predator, like nearly all hunters of the deep.  Its flesh is edible, though not a gourmet's delight by human standards.

Source:  Monstrous Compendium Annual 4.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2007)

Getting started...

Large Animal (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 8d8+x (x hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: Swim 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 12? (-1 size, +x Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+x
Attack: Bite +x melee (1d8+x)
Full Attack: Bite +x melee (1d8+x)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con x, Int 1, Wis x, Cha x
Skills: 11 ranks (Swim +8 from swim speed)
Feats: 3
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -



Ability scores of other Large and bigger fish:

Dire Barracuda: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Ramfish (magical beast): Str 21, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 5
Giant Catfish: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Masher (Huge): Str 27, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8
Giant Gar (Huge): Str 24, Dex 14, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 1

So...

Str 17-20, Dex 14-16, Con 13-16, Int 1, Wis 10-12, Cha 1-2


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

I'll say:
Str 20 Dex 14 Con 15 Int 1 Wis 10 Cha 2

I guess this should have Improved Grab and Swallow Whole, too.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I guess this should have Improved Grab and Swallow Whole, too.




What do you think about that?

For skills, maybe max out Hide for when it's hunting?


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

Yes to all that.

We'll need to modify improved grab and swallow whole to account for the fact that it cannot willingly release the victim, and the fact that the victim is trapped in its mouth (didn't we just do the latter for another creature?).


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes to all that.
> 
> We'll need to modify improved grab and swallow whole to account for the fact that it cannot willingly release the victim, and the fact that the victim is trapped in its mouth (didn't we just do the latter for another creature?).




Yeah, it was the archer frog.  MMIII (I think) has the mivilorn, which has a similar ability.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2007)

From Wikipedia:

"The wide mouth extends all around the anterior circumference of the head, and both jaws are armed with bands of long pointed teeth, which are inclined inwards, and can be depressed so as to offer no impediment to an object gliding towards the stomach, but to prevent its escape from the mouth. The anglerfish is able to distend both its jaw and its stomach (its bones are thin and flexible) to enormous size, allowing it to swallow prey up to twice as large as its entire body."

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an angler fish must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and immediately traps the victim in its seizing maw.

Seizing Maw (Ex): Once the angler fish has successfully grappled an opponent, it automatically holds the victim in its mouth to slowly digest it. Each round that the victim spends in the angler fish's mouth, it takes automatic bite damage (and x points of acid damage?). To escape the hold, the victim must succeed on either a grapple check or an Escape Artist check opposed by the angler fish's grapple check.  If the victim successfully escapes, it immediately takes maximum bite damage as it tears itself free of the angler fish's backward-curving teeth.  An angler fish can hold a creature up to one size category lareger than itself within its mouth in this manner.


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## dhaga (Nov 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Seizing Maw (Ex): Once the angler fish has successfully grappled an opponent, it automatically holds the victim in its mouth to slowly digest it. Each round that the victim spends in the angler fish's mouth, it takes automatic bite damage (and x points of acid damage?). To escape the hold, the victim must succeed on either a grapple check or an Escape Artist check opposed by the angler fish's grapple check.  If the victim successfully escapes, it immediately takes maximum bite damage as it tears itself free of the angler fish's backward-curving teeth.  An angler fish can hold a creature up to one size category lareger than itself within its mouth in this manner.




Well written.  Ouch, ouch ouch.


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Seizing Maw (Ex): Once the angler fish has successfully grappled an opponent, it automatically holds the victim in its mouth to slowly digest it. Each round that the victim spends in the angler fish's mouth, it takes automatic bite damage (and x points of acid damage?). To escape the hold, the victim must succeed on either a grapple check or an Escape Artist check opposed by the angler fish's grapple check.  If the victim successfully escapes, it immediately takes maximum bite damage as it tears itself free of the angler fish's backward-curving teeth.  An angler fish can hold a creature up to one size category lareger than itself within its mouth in this manner.




Me likey.


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## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

+1 natural armor to retain the poor AC?

Skills: 11 ranks (Swim +8 from swim speed)
Feats: 3
Challenge Rating: x

How about this?



> Some anglers actually have one or more hooks at the end of the illicium. With some fatanstic species of these fish, these hooks are functional and can be used to snare prey (1d4 points of damage), drawing it down to the mouth to be bitten automatically in the same round.




How should we tackle the bioluminscence?


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## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> +1 natural armor to retain the poor AC?



Sounds good.  Or maybe even +0.


> Skills: 11 ranks (Swim +8 from swim speed)



I'd say put it into Hide.  That way the angler fish can make a Hide check opposed by the victim's Spot to appear just to be the luminescent lure.


> Feats: 3



Alertness is always good.  Not sure what else.


> Challenge Rating: x



Probably low for its HD.  4 or 5?


> How about this?



  Maybe allow variant versions to have this ability:
*Lure (Ex):* If a creature attacks (or contacts?) the angler fish's lure, it must make a DC 16 Reflex save or become stuck to the lure, taking 1d4 hp damage.  The angler fish receives a free bite attack as an attack of opportunity, which can allow it to make a grapple attempt.


> How should we tackle the bioluminscence?



Ex ability, maybe just keep it in the description, or as above, make a special ability related to the hide check.


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## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

Alertness is good.  How about Blind-Fight and Skill Focus (Hide) for the other two?

Slight revision...

Lure Snare (Ex): The angler fish may make a melee touch attack with its hooked lure.  This attack deals 1d4 points of piercing damage, and the target must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or become stuck to the lure, allowing the angler fish to immediately make an attack of opportunity with its bite attack to grab the victim.


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## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Alertness is good.  How about Blind-Fight and Skill Focus (Hide) for the other two?
> 
> Slight revision...
> 
> Lure Snare (Ex): The angler fish may make a melee touch attack with its hooked lure.  This attack deals 1d4 points of piercing damage, and the target must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or become stuck to the lure, allowing the angler fish to immediately make an attack of opportunity with its bite attack to grab the victim.




Feats and Lure Snare look good.


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## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Alertness is good.  How about Blind-Fight and Skill Focus (Hide) for the other two?
> 
> Slight revision...
> 
> Lure Snare (Ex): The angler fish may make a melee touch attack with its hooked lure.  This attack deals 1d4 points of piercing damage, and the target must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or become stuck to the lure, allowing the angler fish to immediately make an attack of opportunity with its bite attack to grab the victim.




Feats look good.  Lure snare: if it's a melee touch attack, the bite is no longer an AoO but a free attack.  otherwise, looks good.  I guess we should note that the Ref save is Con based.


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## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Feats look good.  Lure snare: if it's a melee touch attack, the bite is no longer an AoO but a free attack.  otherwise, looks good.  I guess we should note that the Ref save is Con based.




Good point.  Revising...

Lure Snare (Ex): The angler fish may make a melee touch attack with its hooked lure. This attack deals 1d4 points of piercing damage, and the target must succeed on a DC 16 Reflex save or become stuck to the lure, allowing the angler fish to make a bite attack as a free action to grab the victim.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Perhaps Strength-based makes more sense?


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## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps Strength-based makes more sense?



I think that would make more sense, in this case.


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## freyar (Nov 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps Strength-based makes more sense?




It's not important to me, really, but my reasoning was that the Ref save would work against the natural toughness or sharpness or stickiness (whichever it is) of the lure.  But Str as a measure of impact makes sense, too.


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## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


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## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Looks good.

We missed an x:
Each round that the victim spends in the angler fish's mouth, it takes automatic bite damage (and x points of acid damage?). 

We can keep the original 1d8 points of acid damage per round, for this.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

Does this work for the standard lure?

Skills:  The bioluminescent illicium of an angler fish not only attracts prey, but also draws the attention away from the less visible rest of the creature.  This grants the angler fish a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.


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## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Does this work for the standard lure?
> 
> Skills:  The bioluminescent illicium of an angler fish not only attracts prey, but also draws the attention away from the less visible rest of the creature.  This grants the angler fish a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.




Yes, I think that covers it nicely.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

Shall we rename this the "giant angler fish" to avoid any confusion?

Besides, "Fish, Deep Ocean, Angler Fish" seems a tad long, doesn't it?


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2007)

I think it looks good, too.  Edit: I meant the +8 hide bonus.

Giant angler fish is also good.


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## dhaga (Nov 7, 2007)

Yes, Giant Angler Fish would be best.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


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## dhaga (Nov 8, 2007)

Looks good.  We just need a weight.
They're long, but elastic-y.  A couple hundred pounds?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Looks good.  We just need a weight.
> They're long, but elastic-y.  A couple hundred pounds?




According to Wikipedia, an orca calf is also 8 foot long and weighs 180 kg (roughly 396 pounds).  So you're right on the money.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

How does it look now?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2007)

I'd say we've got another one done.  If we had 16 done before you posted those last ten, we must be almost done with another batch.


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## dhaga (Nov 12, 2007)

Looks done to me 
Woot.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

*Fish, Deep Ocean, Viper Fish*
Climate/Terrain:  Ocean depths
Freq:  Uncommon
Org:  Solitary
Activity Cycle:  Any
Diet:  Carnivore
Int:  Animal (1)
Treasure:  Nil
Align:  Neutral
# App:  1-2
AC:  7
Move:  Sw 18
HD:  10
THAC0:  11
# Att:  1
Dmg/Att: 1d20
SA:  Swallow whole (some: constriction)
SD: Nil
MR:  Nil
Size:  Huge (20' long)
Morale:  Fearless (20)
XP:  5,000

The viperfish is among the most vicious inhabitants of the deepest ocean depths.  It is an active cruiser after prey rather than a mere passive toothed trap waiting for a meal to come within reach.  The creature has lights for vision as well as for attracting prey, and often has a double row of lights along its torso like portholes on an ocean liner.  Prey lures include luminous patches directly inside the creature's mouth.  From a viperfish's chin protrudes one or more branches-or whiplike growths.  In all species, this is an extension of the lateral line senses, serving as a type of antenna to detect movement in the water.  Some fantastic species, however, might also use it as a weapon (see below).  The smallest natural viperfish is about an inch and a half long, while the largest can grow to 6 feet.  Monstrous viperfish might grow to a length of 20 feet or more.

Like many other fish of the depths, a viperfish gets in one good bite at the start of the attack (1d20 points of damage) and then swallows its prey whole, its teeth serving as no more than bars in a cage to keep the prey from escaping.  They also keep the viperfish from letting its prey go if it realizes it is too much for it, as they slant backwards.  If the viperfish takes too big a mouthful, then that's just too bad for it, as well as for its prey.  Some specimens have a whiplike chin growth that acts as a tentacle, causing 1d8 points of constriction damage.  Swallowed prey takes 1d8 points of damage per round from the viperfish's stomach acids until rescued or dead.  Slashing or piercing damage inflicted on the viperfish is inflicted on the trapped prey as well.

Viperfish are solitary creatures, only coming together briefly for the mating season.  They abandon their young as soon as the eggs are laid.

As active hunters, viperfish have more of an impact on the deep-sea ecology than those predators that simply sit around waiting for prey to come to them.  They also have edible, if non-tasty, flesh.

Source:  Monstrous Compendium Annual 4.[/QUOTE]


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

Increasing a giant angler fish to Huge...

Str 28, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 2

Bite 2d8?

Borrow both these abilities?

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an angler fish must hit a Huge or smaller opponent with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and immediately traps the victim in its seizing maw.

Seizing Maw (Ex): Once the angler fish has successfully grappled an opponent, it automatically holds the victim in its mouth to slowly digest it. Each round that the victim spends in the angler fish's mouth, it takes automatic bite damage and 1d8 points of acid damage. To escape the hold, the victim must succeed on either a grapple check or an Escape Artist check opposed by the angler fish's grapple check. If the victim successfully escapes, it immediately takes maximum bite damage as it tears itself free of the angler fish's backward-curving teeth. An angler fish can hold a creature up to one size category lareger than itself within its mouth in this manner.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

That looks pretty good, or we could even increase the bite damage further, if you'd like.

+4 natural armor to get that AC, I guess.

Mention that there is a variant with a tentacle attack (1d8 + str damage?) and give those the ability to use improved grab and constrict with the tentacle?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 13

Feats: 4 
Giant angler fish has Alertness, Blind-Fight, Skill Focus (Hide).


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

How about Spot 13, and for feats, Alertness, Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes?

CR 7?  (It is at least as deadly as the CR 7 ramfish from Stormwrack)

1,000 pounds?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

I think that all looks good.  Now that I think about it, the AC is a little low for CR 7, but I don't think it's enough of a problem to worry about.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Updated.

Should the variant be CR 8?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Yeah, it's enough tougher to get a bump in CR.  Let's give the tentacle the 15 ft reach, too.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Updated.  

All done?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

I think so!


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

Dragon #89 version:

*Vurgen*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: //16"
HIT DICE: 7+7 to 9+9
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite or 1 tail slap
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12 or 3-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallows prey whole
if it hits successfully; dissolving; paralysis
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (20'-40' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE:
7 + 7 HD, VII/l100 + 1 0/hp
8 + 8 HD, VII/1700 + 12hp
9 + 9 HD, VII/2550 + 14/hp

These solitary marine hunters cruise the deeps endlessly, swallowing anything edible that their great jaws can encompass. Locathah report that these creatures regard vast areas of the ocean as their personal territories in the same way that many land creatures do, and the rare battles for sovereignty are titanic struggles, dangerous to behold.

Vurgens have no lairs as such, although they often retreat to deep caverns to give birth or recover from wounds, and will certainly haunt waters that have yielded plentiful food in the past. 

Most aquatic creatures take interest only in the details of fighting a vurgen, however,
for if they encounter one, they must triumph or die. A vurgen is basically a huge pair of jaws, set with tiny but acute eyes (12" infravision plus normal vision to sight limit of waters) attached to a long, expandable bag of a body with a strong swimming tail. A row of spines on either side of the vurgen's body begins at the "neck" and runs to the tip of the tail. These spines have sharp points and edges, like a row of sword blades, and do 1-4 points of damage to any creature who comes into contact with them.  A direct blow from a vurgen's tail does 3- 12 points of damage, for it is stunningly strong and formed of a pointed, tapered cluster of spines.

Vurgens rarely fight, however; they merely strike to swallow prey whole (hence their nickname of the "giant gulper") and then cruise on in search of the next morsel.  The great jaws enable a vurgen to gulp prey of up to large size effortlessly. Once prey is swallowed, saliva courses from a gland behind the brain down into the mouth and thence down the body to the tail. This saliva is harmless to the vurgen itself, but all creatures it swallows must save vs. poison or be paralyzed by it. Digestive juices interact with the saliva to do 4-16 points of corrosive damage to prcy per round in the gullet, regardless of whether the prey is
paralyzed or not. Active prey can easily cut or eat its way to freedom if the victim can break or fit betwecn the curving, spiny ribs.  The large jaws of the gulper do only 2-12
damage; they are toothless bony ridges designed to clamp down on prey and keep it within the mouth when closed, not to shred or chop up food.

Vurgens are usually a mottled brown in color, although olive, russet, white and even purple specimens have been reported.  Vurgens have been known to come up to the surface and hunt in shallows or even in harbors.

FR MC Appendix 3/MCA4 Version:

*Fish, Vurgens (Giant Gulper Eel)*
Climate/Terrain: Ocean depths
Freq: Very rare
Org: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Carnivore
Int: Animal (1)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
# App: 1
AC: 4
Movement: Sw 15
HD: 7+7 to 9+9
THAC0: 7+7: 13, 8+8,9+9: 11
# Att: 1 bite or tail slap
Dmg/Att: 2d6 or 3d4
SA: Swallow whole, paralyze, acid
SD: Nil
MR: Nil
Size: H (20' to 40' long)
MOrale: Average (8-10)
XP Value: 4,000 to 6,000

The vurgens, also known as the giant gulper eel, is a fierce marine predator that roams the depths of the sea. Its body consists of a long, sinuous torso and tail, and an oversized head and detachable jaw.  Its eyes are tiny but acute.  The vurgens has a bite radius of six feet; the mouth and stomach can expand to hold prey as large as it is.  Rows of spines extend down either side of its body from its head to the tip of its tail.  The tail is extremely strong and formed from a pointed, tapered cluster of spines, making the vurgens a powerful swimmer.

Most vurgens are colored a mottled brown, though olive, russet, white, and purple specimens have been reported.  The small eyes are a flat black.

Combat:  Vurgens prefer to strike quickly, swallow prey whole, and move on to the next meal.  their great jaws enable them to swallow even huge prey.  However, the large jaws of the vurgens causes only 2d6 points of damage, as these are toothless, bony ridges designed to clamp down on prey and hold it inside the mouth, rather than to shred or chew food.

Once prey is swallowed, corrosive saliva floods teh mouth.  Victims must make a successful saving throw vs. poison or be paralyzed by it.  Digestive acids combine with the saliva to dissolve the intended meal; the prey suffers 4d4 points of damage each round it remains within the creature.  This occurs whether the prey is paralyzed or not. Active prey can easily cut or eat its way free if in good shape and it can fit between the curving ribs and jaw.

The vurgens spines are extremely sharp; any creature contacting them suffers 1d4 points of damage.  The vurgens can lash with its tail to inflict 3d4 points of damage.

Habitat/Society:  Little is known about the vurgens.  The simple reason is that any time someone encounters the monster, chances are that either the observer or the eel dies.

These solitary hunters endlessly cruise the ocean depths, swallowing anything edible in their paths.  These creatures consider vast tracts of the ocean to be their territories.  Rival vurgens participate in titanic battles over territory.  They do not keep lairs, although they may retreat to ocean-floor caves to heal wounds.  Vurgens will certainly haunt waters that have yielded plentiful food in the past.

Vurgens spawn once every two years, producing 20 to 40 offspring.  The female carries the fertilized eggs and hatchlings within her.  The hatchlings emerge when they are one foot long (1 HD, inflict 1 point of damage).  The young gain 1 HD each year, maturing in six years, provided they live that long.

Ecology:  Vurgens are the terror of deep sea-dwelling races like the locathah.  They perceive any creature their own size as a rival, thus they attack even whales and kraken.

Humanoids are fortunate in that vurgens prefer the depths of the sea and come near the surface only when forced up by unguessed-at disturbances.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2008)

Upsizing an eel (Medium) and dire eel (Large) to Huge yields the following ability scores:

Eel:  Str 29, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Dire Eel:  Str 27, Dex 11, Con 18, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

So Str 27-29, Dex 11, Con 18-20, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Wow, nasty creatures.  Let's go with those stats and take Str 29 and Con 20.  So mostly we need improved grab and swallow whole with paralysis as part of the digestion damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

Ordinarily, a creature can imp. grab a creature the same size or smaller, and can swallow a creature two sizes smaller.

For Mr. Gulp, they should be able to swallow whole a creature their own size. They're pretty much just a stomach with a propulsion mechanism.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I went with the highest HD range listed (9 HD), since the dire eel has 6 HD at Large and these guys are much bigger.

Modify the following ability for the spines?

Barbed Defense (Su): Any creature striking a barbed devil with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d8+6 points of piercing and slashing damage from the devil’s barbs. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.

Split skill ranks between Listen and Spot like eels and dire eels?

Borrow this from eels and dire eels?

Skills: Dire eels have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks. The bonus on Hide checks improves to +8 in areas of coral, rock, or heavy kelp.

Dire Eel feats:  Improved Initiative, Toughness, Weapon Focus (bite)


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2008)

Yeah, let's add the spines.  The rest looks good.  Also, let's add a Fort save or paralysis for 1d4 rounds for creatures swallowed whole.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 7, 2008)

That feat selection looks pretty good, although we might want to give it Improved Grapple as a bonus feat. Its fourth feat should be Stealthy. I'd drop the line about the Hide bonus increasing in certain terrains, as the gulper isn't as closely associated with the sea bed. Also as such, since it lives in the deepest, darkest water, giving it a Move Silently bonus and/or ranks makes sense to me.

Modifying barbed defense looks right for the spines. I'd assume they'd do rather a bit less damage.

Demiurge out.

Edit: Upon looking at the CC entry in progress, its grapple mod is already a +23! I think that's definately sufficient.


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2008)

Updated.

It still gets one more feat.  Weapon Focus (tail)?  Great Fortitude?  Alertness?

Fill in the blanks:

Swallow Whole (Ex): A vurgens can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to its size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the swallowed creature takes x points of bludgeoning damage and x points of acid damage per round from the vurgens's digestive juices. Additionally, a swallowed creature is exposed to the vurgens's paralytic saliva (see paralysis, above). A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the vurgens's digestive tract (AC x). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed creature must cut its own way out.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 8, 2008)

Let's go Great Fort for the feat.

2d8+8 bludgeoning (the bonus damage for bludgeoning is based on Str)
8 acid
AC 14 (10 + 1/2 the creature's natural armor)
Takes 25 damage to escape.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2008)

Great Fort sounds fine.  Isn't 2d8 a bit much for the bludgeoning, though, given that the swallowed victims might be paralyzed?  I think I might be happier with 1d10.  Not a strong preference, though.

CR 6
Maybe 200 lb?  The electric eel stats in ToH go up to 20 ft and 120 lb, but I think these should be bulkier.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2008)

2d8 is the example I got from both the Swallow Whole species I looked up, the purple worm (Gargantuan) and the tyrannosaur (huge). Considering that a purple worm victim is likely suffering from crazy Str damage, there's not too big a difference. 

However, considering the similarity in build of a worm to an eel, we should be able to size down the 2d8 to 2d6.

This is looking like a really strong CR 6. I'd be more comfortable with CR 7. Gives the party access to freedom of movement, which would be a lifesaver in this fight.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2008)

2d6 sounds fair.  The tyrannosaur is CR 8, and the purple worm is CR 12, so I think the downgrade is a good idea.

CR 7 sounds fine to me.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2008)

I think it looks done.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Finished.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

*Saw-edged scaled snake*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 6+1
% IN LAIR: 0
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: see text
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
SIZE: L (20')
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
PSIONICS: Nil

This constrictor is covered with tiny needlelike spines that it uses as an aid in locomotion and in killing constricted prey. The scales appear normal until raised through muscle contraction by the snake. The scales puncture the intended victim during constriction.  The sawlike edges of the scales are double-barbed, and it is impossible to pull them out of the skin without pulling out chunks of skin as well. The scales can be removed by the snake by a simple relaxation of the muscles that control them. No additional damage is received if the removal occurs by the action of the snake. If the scales are forcibly removed, the victim receives an additional 4-24 hp damage. If they are carefully removed, the damage drops to 1-6 hp. If the snake is killed, the muscles controlling the scales remain taut.

The saw-edged scaled snake is jet black in color. Though based upon the primitive Asian wart snake, which has individual scales instead of the usual arrangement of overlapping scales, the saw-edged snake is found only in fantasy worlds. 

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #115 (1986).


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Constrictor snake (Medium) ability scores:  Str 17, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Improved to Large:  Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Oddly...

Giant constrictor snake (Huge):  Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

So Str could fall in the 18-25 range, Dex could stay 17 like the others, and the rest of the ability scores are constant.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

I say keep the good strength. It'll do more damage with its saw-scales, so it'll probably be of higher CR, so we might as well keep it strong. 

Do we want to give it a barbed defense ability?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Con 13 or 17?  I'd go higher, myself.

Definitely some kind of barbed defense and nasty constrict damage (piercing as well as bludgeoning).  Should require a heal check to remove the scales "carefully" for lower damage.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's keep the Con low, as I see nothing to indicate that they are any tougher or more hardy than other constrictor snakes.

The current constrict and skills bonuses are direct ports from other constrictor snakes.  We can modify them as we see fit.

A few abilities for inspiration...

Spiked Body (Ex): Due to the razor sharp spikes all along their bodies, spiked sea serpents cause damage with constrict attacks as a sea serpent one size category larger. Colossal spiked sea serpents deal 8d8 points of damage on a constrict attack. One half of a spiked sea serpent's constrict damage is piercing while the other half is bludgeoning.

Impale (Ex): A spinewyrm deals the damage listed in the spinewyrm table with a successful grapple check. The spinewyrm's foe must also make a Reflex save or have a spine embedded in his or her flesh.

Detachable Spines (Su): An opponent hit by a spinewyrm's spine (whether in melee, during a grapple, or during a spine volley) must succeed on a Reflex save or have the spine break off in his or her flesh. A lodged spine imposes a -1 penalty on attacks, saves, and checks; penalties for multiple spines stack. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

A spine can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check as a standard action; otherwise, removing a spine deals 1d6 points of damage.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

I like the spiked body; that's I think just what we want.  I'd then combine that with the last sentence from the detachable spines.  The problem here is that the saw-edged snake itself is grappling you if you're stuck with the spines.  We should probably put in some wording that it doesn't release when it dies.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

How's this?

Impaling Constriction (Ex): One half of a saw-edged scaled snake's constrict damage is piercing while the other half is bludgeoning.   The sawlike scales are double-barbed, so they cannot be removed easily without harming the victim further.  A scale can be removed safely with a DC 20 Heal check as a standard action; otherwise, removing a scale deals 1d6 points of damage.  The snake can relax its scales and remove them without dealing damage to its victim, if it so chooses.   A slain saw-edged scaled snake's muscles remain taut, so removing it requires a successful grapple check as if it were alive, and removing the scales without harming the victim requires a Heal check as listed above.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2008)

Looks good to me.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me, too.  Though if we go by the original text, it should be 4d6 damage w/o a Heal check and 1d6 with one.  But the target CR is probably too low for that kind of damage, so I'm fine with the lower.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Updated.

Should we combine constrict and impaling constriction into a single ability?

Skills: 9
It looks like other constrictor snakes split their ranks between Climb, Listen, and Spot, and go with just the racial bonuses for the other skills.

Feats: 3
Constrictor Snake Feats: Improved Initiative, Toughness
Giant Constrictor Snake Feats: Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness

Challenge Rating: 3?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

We can combine them if you think it's simpler to read.

Let's do the same for the skills.

How about Imp Init, Endurance, and Skill Focus (Hide) for feats?  I like Endurance and SF because they're a little unusual, and Toughness seems a little silly at 6HD.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

On second thought, let's keep constrict separate.  That way, if another ability/feat/etc. mentions constrict as a prereq, it can qualify.

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Looks good -- and done!


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

It's about time to give vermin a turn.

*POLAR SPIDER*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (5% chance of 2-5)
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 16"
HIT DICE: 6 + 6
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: J-M, Q
NO. OF ATTACK: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low (see below)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (see below)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: VI/650 + 8/hp

These enormous arachnids inhabit only the coldest and most remote snow-bound regions.  They build no webs, but roam in search of anything edible. The great polar spider usually hunts alone, but sometimes travels in a small pack in order to bring down creatures as formidable as frost giants, white dragons, winter wolves, and yeti.

When it comes to combat and hunting techniques, the polar spider is exceptionally clever.  The spider usually hides in a deep snowbank where it is 75% undetectable due to coloration, stillness, and experience, and rushes at passing prey, surprising on a 1-4 on a d6. This spider's bite is fatally poisonous, and all saves vs. poison are at -2 against it.

The monster is completely immune to cold-based attacks. Its favorite prey are humans and frost giants. A polar spider's lair is usually in an icy cavern or a large tunnel in the snow, and here will be found the spider's treasure (purely incidental).  

The creature appears to be an enormous, heavy-set spider covered by long, shaggy white fur. Its many compound eyes are dull blue, and its curved fangs are ivory white in hue.  These monsters are usually 6' high along their backs, and cover a rough circle 8-10' in diameter when standing.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #118 (1987)


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Although not terribly interesting, I think we could jazz this up a bit.

Perhaps add the white dragon's icewalking ability, and grant it tremorsense, allowing it to essentially treat the ice as its web?

I also thought Improved Bull Rush might be fun.  Imagine a horse-sized spider slamming creatures off their feat along the ice (or even off icy cliffs).  Good times.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

There's the real world horse-sized spider? (And I thought the saw-edged snake was a stretch!) 

I like with those ideas. Should get a large hide bonus in snow and ice or else some kind of camouflage.  The poison should also be quite potent.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Aren't there already snow spiders converted in Frostburn?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> There's the real world horse-sized spider? (And I thought the saw-edged snake was a stretch!)




Yeah, some of these are a real stretch.  That's why I put "real world" in quotes as an escape clause.    



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Aren't there already snow spiders converted in Frostburn?




D'oh!  Sure enough.  They even have the tremorsense I suggested.    

This might be different enough to warrant conversion.  Its venom sounds more like Con damage than the snow spider's Dex/paralysis venom.  It also doesn't seem to possess the leap ability given to the snow spider, and if we add the icewalking, it could further differentiate itself.

What do you guys think?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

But these are polar spiders, not snow spiders!  

Abilities?  The large monstrous spider has Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2.  However, the polar spider has two more HD.  I'd probably say bump the Strength up to 21 or so.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> But these are polar spiders, not snow spiders!
> 
> Abilities?  The large monstrous spider has Str 15, Dex 17, Con 12, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2.  However, the polar spider has two more HD.  I'd probably say bump the Strength up to 21 or so.  What do you think?




Don't make me bust out the artic spiders and rime spiders.    

I'm assuming that's a "yes" from you on continuing the conversion!

FWIW, the Large snow spider's stats are Str 15, Dex 18, Con 14, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2.

If me make it a bull-rusher, the greater Str you suggested would make sense.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 26, 2008)

If you really wanted to differentiate polar and snow spiders, you could let the polar spider keep its intelligence (it had low intelligence in the original) and make it a magical beast.

In any case, the description says polar spiders are exceptionally clever, so it should probably have a higher wisdom than 10 (exceptional intelligence is 15-16).


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Excellent point, and further proving that I shouldn't have put them in the "real world" thread.    

What say the rest of you...magical beast?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

I think we should let polar spiders keep their wits and be magical beasts. Helps to further differentiate them.

Agree on low intelligence, Wisdom of 15-17. I approve of making them stronger, for the Bull's Rushing.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Magical beast it is!

How about Str 21, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 17, Cha 12?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Looks good to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Cold subtype or just immunity to cold?



> This spider's bite is fatally poisonous, and all saves vs. poison are at -2 against it.




Con damage and Ability Focus/racial bonus to save DC?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

Con damage, Ability Focus... I say cold subtype.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Might as well go with the cold subtype, esp since we're going with magical beast. 

Wyverns have 2d6 Con for primary and secondary at 7HD and CR 6 and also had fatal poison in their previous incarnation.  (And Ability Focus (poison).)  So I'd say that's probably a fair conversion.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

> When it comes to combat and hunting techniques, the polar spider is exceptionally clever. The spider usually hides in a deep snowbank where it is 75% undetectable due to coloration, stillness, and experience, and rushes at passing prey, surprising on a 1-4 on a d6. This spider's bite is fatally poisonous, and all saves vs. poison are at -2 against it.




Normal hunting spider skill bonuses:

Skills: Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. *Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks. 

Snow spider skill bonuses:

Skills: Snow spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks, a +20 racial bonus on Jump checks, a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks.  Snow spiders use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks.  Snow spiders can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks even if rushed or threatened.  *In snowy or icy environments, a snow spider's bonus on Hide checks improves to +8.


I'm thinking we retain the usual  +4 Hide, +10 Jump, +8 Spot.  We don't currently have a climb speed for them.  Shall we give them one?

Shall we stick with the snow spider's +8 Hide improvement in snowy areas, or go even higher since this is even more greatly linked to the polar spider's tactics?

I think a racial bonus on Balance checks might also make sense, to go along with the icegliding/bull rushing.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm thinking we retain the usual  +4 Hide, +10 Jump, +8 Spot.  We don't currently have a climb speed for them.  Shall we give them one?
> 
> Shall we stick with the snow spider's +8 Hide improvement in snowy areas, or go even higher since this is even more greatly linked to the polar spider's tactics?
> 
> I think a racial bonus on Balance checks might also make sense, to go along with the icegliding/bull rushing.  Thoughts?




A slow climb speed sounds right, along with the usual skill bonuses.  Let's add a +4 Balance bonus and go for +12 Hide bonus in snowy areas.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

Updated.

Should we give them an ability to knock bull rushed victims down when on icy surfaces?  Say if they beat the check by 10 or more?

CR 4?

Treasure:  J-M, Q

J:
3-24 copper pieces per individual

K:
3-18 silver pieces per individual

L:
2-12 electrum pieces per individual

M:
2-8 gold pieces per individual

Q:
1-4 gems: 50%

So half coins; half goods; no items?  (Although I find it odd that incidental treasure would not include items.  Perhaps just half standard?)

Advancement:  7 HD (Large); 8-15 HD (Huge); 16–31 HD (Gargantuan); 32+ (Colossal)?  (This follows normal monstrous spider progression)


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## freyar (Mar 27, 2008)

You mean like Overrun or Trip?  I think to get a good CR 4, I'd drop Ability Focus (poison) since that makes it pretty tough and add Improved Overrun.  Or am I being too wimpy? 

Treasure sounds good with half items.  Advancement looks good.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> You mean like Overrun or Trip?




I was thinking more along the lines of the Rampaging Bull Rush feat in PHBII or 



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I think to get a good CR 4, I'd drop Ability Focus (poison) since that makes it pretty tough and add Improved Overrun.  Or am I being too wimpy?




It originally made opponets save at -2, so Ability Focus seemed like a good choice.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Yeah, I agree with the choice, but I wonder if it's overpowered for CR 4.  A wyvern with the same poison and DC only 1 higher is CR 6.  What if we go to CR  5 and add the ability to knock down opponents?


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

CR 5 seems reasonable.  Its about on par with the phase spider; it has deadlier venom, but lacks the maneuverability and 1 greater HD of the phaser.

How's this?

Ice Rush (Ex):  A polar spider can attempt to knock down any creature that it successfully bull rushes on icy surfaces.  The target must succeed on a Balance check (opposed by the polar spider's Strength check made to bull rush) or be knocked prone at the end of the bull rush.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Sounds good to me, and I think it's done.


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Excellent!  I promise to keep the next one a bit closer to "real world".


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Keepin' it real with Clint Eastwood's favorite costar.    

*ORANGUTAN*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
MOVE: 9" @ 12"
HIT DICE: 1 + 1 (females) or 2 + 1 (males)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2/1-2/1-2 (females)
or 1-3/1-3/1-4 (males)
SIZE: M (4' to 5' tall and very broad)
LEVEL/XP VALUE: females II / 28 +2/hp; males II / 50 + 3/hp

All apes in this article have:
ARMOR CLASS: 6
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Rending
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Orangutans are solitary, tree-dwelling apes. They live deep in tropical forests, and eat mostly fruit. They dislike being approached or followed by humans or other humanlike creatures, and if speak with animals is used they are almost invariably surly and evasive due to their unsociable nature. An orangutan has intimate knowledge of the surrounding terrain, especially with regard to fruit trees. If two orangutans are encountered, they will be a female and an infant. A group of three will be composed of either a female with an infant and a half-grown child, or a female with an infant and a male consort (50% chance of either grouping). Though orangutans are generally unaggressive, 15% of all solitary males will be so enraged at an invasion of their privacy that they will attack immediately.  Male orangutans have 17 or 18 strength and weigh about 200 pounds.  Many males are so heavy that they must travel on the forest floor rather than through the branches. Females weigh no more than a small human and have 16 strength. 

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #95 (1985).


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 28, 2008)

It looks like strength is 16-18.

Comparable creatures:

Ape: Str 21 Dex 15 Con 14 Int 2 Wis 12, Cha 7

Baboon: Str 15 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 2 Wis 12 Cha 4

Bar-lgura: Str 22 Dex 19 Con 19


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 29, 2008)

I'd say Str 18.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 29, 2008)

I've always found it weird that "ape" is a D&D animal, since "ape" is a superfamily including baboons, chimps, gorillas, orangutans, and humans.  

Anyway, how about Str 18 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 2 Wis 12, Cha 8?  Just mixet things up a little.  +2 Natural Armor for the rest of the AC?  Ditch the male/female differences in stats?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 29, 2008)

D&D "apes" are more properly carnivorous apes, inspired more by Edgar Rice Burroughs than by biology.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Some interesting bits from Wikipedia:

"The word orangutan (also written orang-utan, orang utan and orangutang) is derived from the Malay and Indonesian words orang meaning "person" and hutan meaning "forest", thus "person of the forest". 

"There is significant sexual dimorphism between females and males: females can grow to around 4 ft 2 in or 127 centimetres and weigh around 100 lbs or 45 kg, while fully mature males can reach 5 ft 9 in or 175 centimetres in height and weigh over 260 lbs or 118 kg."

"According to recent research by Harvard University psychologist, James Lee, orangutans are the world's most intelligent animal other than humans, with higher learning and problem solving ability than chimpanzees, which were previously considered to have greater abilities."


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

This looks pretty good, though I wish animals could have Int higher than 2.  

Seems like we should add Rend as a special ability if they hit with both claws, probably for a modest amount of damage.  (See the Special Attacks line.)


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Yeah, bummer that they can't be Int 3.

Double claw damage plus Str and 1/2 for the rend attack?

Skills: 5
Most apelike animals split ranks in Listen and Spot.

Feats: 1
Alertness and Toughness are common among apelike animals.

Challenge Rating: 1?  (That puts them right between CR 1/2 baboon and CR 1 ape)

Advancement: 3-6 HD (Medium)?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2008)

That sounds good for Rend.

Listen +3, Spot +2, and I'd go with Alertness for the feat, though Toughness is ok if anyone else has a strong opinion.

CR 1 and advancement sound about right.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Updated.  Look OK?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

I like it!  Looks done, too.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Thanks to GrayLinnorm in another thread, we've got kangaroo stats to convert.    

Kangaroo: A common herbivore of the grassy outback and lower hills outcroppings, this marsupial forms an important component of chameleon men diet. Skins can be sold to phanatons for 2d6 silver pieces (or equivalent barter value). AC 8, HD 2 (M), MV 240' (80'), AT 1 hind leg, D 1d8, NA 0(3-60), Save F1, ML 7, TT Nil, Int 2, AL N, XP 20. The kangaroo can leap up to 60'.

From Dragon Magazine #186 (1992).


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

While doing the pigalope conversion, we found the following:

Per Wikipedia, the largest kangaroo, the Red Kangaroocan be 6 ft. 7 in. tall and weigh 200 lb. Wallabies are 2-1/2 feet tall and weigh 30 lbs.

So shall we range from 2-1/2 to 4 feet tall (for Small) and 30-100 pounds?

+8 racial bonus on Jump checks


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Small advancing to Medium, I think.  Racial jump bonus makes sense.  Do you think the AC should be due to Dex?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Spending some time at Wikipedia...

Western Grey Kangaroo: weighs 15-54 kg (33-119 lbs.) and its length is 0.9-1.4m (4 ft. 7 in.) with a 75-100 cm (2-3 ft.) tail. 

Eastern Grey Kangaroo: male typically weighs around 66 kg (145 lb.) and stands almost 2 m (6 ft.) tall

Red Kangaroo:  Males grow up to 1.8m (6 feet) tall and weigh up to 187lbs . Females grow up to 1.1m (3.6ft) tall and weigh up to 77lbs . Tails can be up to 1m (3ft) along.

Based on that, I'd say we stick with Medium.  We can stat up wallabies/wallaroos as smaller, similar creatures.

Sound good?


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Oooh, a two-fer conversion!   Sounds good.

Str 11, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7?  Just pretty arbitrary, but I'm taking the AC all from Dex.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

That look reasonable, although maybe a tad stronger, since they kick with such force?

Some interesting bits from Wikipedia:



> Kangaroos are the only large animals to use hopping as a means of locomotion. The comfortable hopping speed for Red Kangaroo is about 20–25 km/h (13–16 mph), but speeds of up to 70 km/h (44 mph) can be attained, over short distances, while it can sustain a speed of 40 km/h (25 mph) for nearly two kilometres.[14] This fast and energy-efficient method of travel has evolved because of the need to regularly cover large distances in search of food and water, rather than the need to escape predators.






> Because of its long feet, it cannot walk correctly. To move at slow speeds, it uses its tail to form a tripod with its two forelimbs. It then raises its hind feet forward, in a form of locomotion called "crawl-walking."






> There is also a link between the hopping action and breathing: as the feet leave the ground, air is expelled from the lungs; bringing the feet forward ready for landing refills the lungs, providing further energy efficiency. Studies of kangaroos and wallabies have demonstrated that, beyond the minimum energy expenditure required to hop at all, increased speed requires very little extra effort (much less than the same speed increase in, say, a horse, dog or human), and that the extra energy is required to carry extra weight. For kangaroos, the key benefit of hopping is not speed to escape predators—the top speed of a kangaroo is no higher than that of a similarly-sized quadruped, and the Australian native predators are in any case less fearsome than those of other continents—but economy: in an infertile continent with highly variable weather patterns, the ability of a kangaroo to travel long distances at moderately high speed in search of food sources is crucial to survival.




This would suggest a slower land speed that the original stats, but something similar to the cheetah's sprint ability, eh?

Also, the last paragraph seems to indicate Endurance as a bonus feat.


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

Str 13 or 15?

Sprint is a good idea, and so is Endurance.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Land speed 30 ft.?

Skills:  All ranks in Listen?

Feats:  Alertness?  Skill Focus (Jump or Listen)?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

30 ft, max Listen, and probably Skill Focus (Listen).  They've already got a good racial bonus on Jump.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Some more interesting stuff from Wikipedia:

"Kangaroos and wallabies are adept swimmers, and often flee into waterways if presented with the option. If pursued into the water, a large kangaroo may use its forepaws to hold the predator underwater so as to drown it.[19] Another defensive tactic described by witnesses is catching the attacking dog with the forepaws and disembowelling it with the hind legs."

Racial bonus on Swim speeds as well?

"Kangaroos are shy and retiring by nature, and in normal circumstances present no threat to humans. Male kangaroos often "box" amongst each other, playfully, for dominance, or in competition for mates. The dexterity of their forepaws is utilised in both punching and grappling with the foe, but the real danger lies in a serious kick with the hindleg. The sharpened toenails can disembowel an opponent."

Racial bonus on grapple checks?

A weak rake attack?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

I'd go with a bonus on Swim checks, but not a swim speed.  Maybe +8?

Maybe a small racial bonus on grappling, about +4.  How about rake damage equal to the slam damage?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Updated.

I currently gave it rake damage equal to a leopard, as I can't really see a kangaroo having a more deadly rake than a similarly-sized great cat.   Sound OK?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Didn't realize the leopard rake was so low.  Sounds good to me.  

From Wikipedia, "The collective noun for kangaroos is a mob, troop, or court."  How about court?  That's a nice one for the group organization, I think. 

CR 1?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

All sounds good.

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Looks good, do you want to do a wallaby also?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Sure.  This isn't a conversion, per se, since there are no original stats to convert, but we can easily downsize a kangaroo and include the stat block in the CC.

Any suggested changes other than the usual changes associated with downsizing a critter?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Reduce to 1HD at the same time, I guess.  The rake damage will be pretty small; do you still want to keep rake?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Not much on them at Wikipedia, but this page has some information:

"To defend itself, a buck attacks with his forepaws, scratching with his razor-sharp claws while keeping his head back to avoid damage to the eyes. It can also bite as well as lean its whole body back on its heavy tail and use its rear feet to kick. Normally, however, they try to run away rather than fight."

"A group of wallabies is called a mob"

"Grown wallabies reach 2 1/2 feet tall and weigh 30 pounds. This is a good pet size, and they will not outgrow their environment. The expected life span for a wallaby is about the same as a small dog (12-15 years). They will stay docile throughout their life span." 

"Wallabies stay docile through life with the bottle fed Bennett joeys making the best pets. With a typical life span of 12-15 years there are plenty of years to enjoy them as your pet. They are curious and cunning with a personality and a temperament of a deer. They groom their entire body daily, combing the hair with their claws and teeth and even washing their faces and behind their ears like a cat. There is absolutely no smell to a wallaby at any stage of life." 

"The joeys box and wrestle each other when young but as they start to mature the females act like young ladies and the males like typical boys. The males spar or box each other daily throughout life as a form of recreation. During breeding season the boxing becomes the manner of establishing dominance that is challenged constantly by other rival males."

"...a wallaroo is any of a few species somewhat intermediate in size between a wallaby and a kangaroo."


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Maybe give it weak claw and bite attacks (should we add those to the kangaroo as well?).  I'd say drop rake.  Otherwise, this is mostly just good fluff.  Organization should be solitary and mob, I guess.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Do we want to add the bite and claws to the kangaroo?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2008)

Yeah, as weak secondary attacks.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Hey, I think the wallabies are done!


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Done.

Does CR 1/2 seem appropriate for the wallaby?


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Done.
> 
> Does CR 1/2 seem appropriate for the wallaby?



 Sounds reasonable.  Now I need to find an Australian kind of game to use these.


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 7, 2008)

The article I got the kangaroo stats for (part of Dragon's "Voyage of the Princess Ark" series had other Australian animals.  Any requests?


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## Khisanth the Ancient (Apr 7, 2008)

A platypus (with weak poison - maybe 1d2 Dex?).  

I have stats for a quoll (a sort of big marsupial weasel) somewhere. 

Wow, I haven't posted here in ages.


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## Khisanth the Ancient (Apr 7, 2008)

I found the quoll.  It is a 1HD Tiny Animal. Does anyone want to see and critique it?


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 8, 2008)

There's no platypus, but there is a giant echidna.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2008)

Quoll, echidna, why don't we look at them all?


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 8, 2008)

Here you go:

Spiny anteater (echidna): An egg-laying mammal that burrows under the ground, this nocturnal anteater uses its long, sticky tongue to catch insects.  Beware of its giant cousin: AC 5, HD 9* (L), MV 90' (30') or 60' (30') when burrowing, AT 1 tongue, D 3d6/rd, NA 1-2 (0), Save F5, ML 8, TT Nil, Int 2, AL N, XP 1,600.  The giant echidna lashes at its prey with its sticky tongue, sweeping a cone-shaped area equivalent to a standard dragon's breath.  All small or medium-sized creatures within this area must save vs. dragon breath or be stuck on the tongue.  The giant echidna then pulls its victims into its mouth, causing 3d6 points of damage per round to each of them.  At the end of each round, victims can pull free if they succeed a Strength check.

From "Voyage of the Princess Ark", Dragon #186.


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2008)

Just had to mention that I ran across a mention of the gulper eel (vurgens) in a Smithsonian magazine tonight.  

Anyone else want to work on the giant echidna?  I kind of left it because Shade was on vacation, but I'm just as happy to do this next in this thread...


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 19, 2008)

Giant echidna sounds sweet. How do we want to handle the cone of tongue? Sounds like the adhesive/drag combo of mimics/ropers would be applicable... but then it's a cone. Weird. May have to be toned down some.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2008)

Rather than a cone, we could do a down-sized version of a dragon's tail sweep.  Probably shouldn't do much (any damage), but the adhesive effect from a roper sounds about right.

So Shade, what do you think, can we add this one to the list?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Rather than a cone, we could do a down-sized version of a dragon's tail sweep.  Probably shouldn't do much (any damage), but the adhesive effect from a roper sounds about right.
> 
> So Shade, what do you think, can we add this one to the list?




Good idea...and yes!


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

Oh, good, so we'll do the large version, I guess.  Any good ideas of animals to compare that to for stats?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Glyptodon, perhaps?

L, Str 20, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

Also:
Quillflinger, M, Str 15, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 10

We could also upsize the following:
Hedgehog/Platypus, D, Str 3, Dex 12, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 5


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Advancing the quillflinger gives Str 23, Dex 14, Con 18; advancing the hedgehog/platypus gives Str 21, Dex 4, Con 16.  How about we go with Str 20, Dex 11, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 8?  

Why on earth is the platypus supposed to be that intelligent?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 24, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Why on earth is the platypus supposed to be that intelligent?



I'm guessing that they're familiar stats.

And your stats for the echidna (giant) look fine.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I'm guessing that they're familiar stats.




Indeed.   Let's run with those stats.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Ok, to start with the tongue attack, here's the tail sweep and the roper adhesive:


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Tail Sweep (Ex): This special attack allows a dragon of at least Gargantuan size to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep automatically deals the indicated damage plus 1½ times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down). Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon).






> Drag (Ex): If a roper hits with a strand attack, the strand latches onto the opponent’s body. This deals no damage but drags the stuck opponent 10 feet closer each subsequent round (provoking no attack of opportunity) unless that creature breaks free, which requires a DC 23 Escape Artist check or a DC 19 Strength check. The check DCs are Strength-based, and the Escape Artist DC includes a +4 racial bonus. A roper can draw in a creature within 10 feet of itself and bite with a +4 attack bonus in the same round. A strand has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a roper’s strand does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the strand is currently attached to a target, the roper takes a -4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing a strand deals no damage to a roper.




So I'd say that the tongue sweep can affect creatures up to 1 size smaller than the echidna but doesn't do damage other than the adhesive.  Ref save to avoid.  The roper's drag looks pretty good, but severing the tongue should probably cause some damage.  The echidna's tongue is supposed to do 3d6 damage per round; does the value sound good and do you agree it sounds like acid damage?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 24, 2008)

I see no way for it to be any damage other than acid. Although in that case, perhaps we should add acid damage to the initial tongue sweep. Less than 3d6, perhaps. 1d6?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Yeah, 1d6 sounds about right.

How about this?

Tongue Sweep (Ex): The giant spiny anteater attacks by sweeping with its tongue as a standard action.  The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 20 feet, extending from an intersection on the edge of the anteater's space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are one or more size categories smaller than the anteater.  Affected creatures must make a DC X Ref save or become stuck to the tongue (see Drag below) and take 1d6 points of acid damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Drag (Ex): Any creature damaged by the spiny anteater's tongue sweep becomes stuck to the tongue. This deals 3d6 points of acid damage to each attached creature on the anteater's turn each round and drags stuck opponents 5 feet closer each subsequent round (provoking no attack of opportunity) unless that creature breaks free, which requires a DC X Escape Artist check or a DC X Strength check. The check DCs are Constitution-based. The tongue has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking an anteater's tongue does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the tongue is currently attached to a target, the anteater takes a -4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing the tongue deals 5 hp of damage to the anteater.

I took out the racial bonus to the Escape Artist DC and switched to Con-based.  Since this doesn't have a bite attack (yet, anyway), I took out the bit about the bite, also.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 25, 2008)

Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute!

The victims of a giant echidna attack only take 3d6 points of damage per round they're inside its mouth, not on the tongue! That supports the idea that the tongue itself does no damage, and that 3d6 should be represented by some manner of grapple mechanic (either Chew or Swallow Whole).

What do you think, sirs?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

I was starting to wonder that myself.  Here's an alternate version:

Tongue Sweep (Ex): The giant spiny anteater attacks by sweeping with its tongue as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 20 feet, extending from an intersection on the edge of the anteater's space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are one or more size categories smaller than the anteater. Affected creatures must make a DC X Ref save or become stuck to the tongue (see Drag below). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Drag (Ex): Any creature damaged by the spiny anteater's tongue sweep becomes stuck to the tongue. The giant echidna drags stuck opponents 5 feet closer each subsequent round (provoking no attack of opportunity) unless that creature breaks free, which requires a DC X Escape Artist check or a DC X Strength check. The check DCs are Constitution-based. The tongue has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking an anteater's tongue does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the tongue is currently attached to a target, the anteater takes a -4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing the tongue deals 5 hp of damage to the anteater.

Once a stuck opponent reaches the giant echidna's space, the echidna may make a grapple attempt as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it succeeds, it establishes a hold and can chew.  The echidna may hold only one opponent at a time.  The others remain stuck to its tongue (unless they escape as detailed above) but are not dragged closer.

Chew (Ex): Each round, a giant echidna deals 3d6 points of bludgeoning and piercing damage to any opponent held in its mouth.

Should there be a racial grapple bonus for the sticky tongue?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 25, 2008)

I say that a +4 racial bonus makes sense. The chewing damage should also incorporate the echidna's Strength score. So 3d6+5. We could theoretically reduce that to 2d6+5, if you're worried about it dealing too much damage.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

You're right, +5 for Str.  I think the higher damage is ok, since it can't do too much else, but I'm ok with reducing also.  Shade, what do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

All that looks fine.

Added to Homebrews.

Should it have anything on the attack lines, or simply use its tongue sweep?

I just checked the Wikipedia entry for more info.

This is, um, interesting:



> The echidnas have a four-headed penis, but only two of the heads are used during mating. The other two heads "shut down" and do not grow in size. The heads used are swapped each time the mammal has sex.




This link gives some more useful information:



> Rismiller, who also studies tiger snakes, admits she's obsessed with echidnas. "They're such wonderful, attractive, enigmatic animals. They have a rolling, waddling gait. Their spines make them look formidable, but they're really quite gentle animals. To see their little beaks and their little eyes looking up at you, it's Lord of the Rings all over. You think: 'Here is a wise little gnome.'"




That could be fun to incorporate.    



> Adult echidnas are roughly the size and weight of newborn humans, but helpless they're not. Their short legs, heavy, backward-pointing rear claws, and broad shoulders are well-suited to powerful digging. Alone among mammals, echidnas can dig straight down, disappearing in minutes. Natural escape artists, echidnas can also dig through wooden garage doors and heavy plastic storage bins. Metal walls are a better deterrent, but they're not unbreachable, as researchers at the University of Melbourne discovered recently. A group of captive echidnas there were confined to a pen with corrugated-iron walls. "After three days," Rismiller says, "the researchers found the drinking bowls had been stacked in a corner, and all the echidnas had climbed out."




It looks like their burrowing will need a special ability allowing them to move through tougher materials.



> Aussies may refer to echidnas casually as "porkies," but their spines have little in common with a porcupine's quills. Echidna spines lack barbs and are never thrown from the body. What's more, a porcupine can't use its quills to climb a rock crevice or right itself when upended, as an echidna can. "Echidna spines are actually modified hairs," says Rismiller. "They have a long root that goes into a special muscle layer no other mammal has." The animals can thus move spines individually or in small groups—to protect their heads, for example.




It looks like we'll need the spines/barbed defense we've used for other creatures.

Racial bonus on Climb checks?



> Rismiller suspects that spines may aid in the species' survival in an unexpected way. Like other mammals, echidnas are hairy and milk-bearing, but their blood is only lukewarm. An active echidna's innards usually range between 88 and 91.5 degrees F, or 31 to 33 C. (An inactive echidna can be much cooler; to conserve energy, it can go into torpor, letting its body drop to as low as a few degrees above freezing.) "Cold doesn't deter them," says Rismiller, "but if their body temperature rises above 33 Celsius [well below what's normal for humans] heat stress will kill them." Echidnas have no sweat pores, nor do they pant. Might their spines, so deeply embedded in well-vascularized tissue, be capable of dissipating excess heat? The idea for now is conjecture, but Rismiller hopes to pursue it.




No need to save to avoid nonlethal damage in cold environs?  Increased damage or more frequent saves vs. heat dangers?


----------



## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Hmm, I guess that first tidbit can go in flavor if you want. 

Improved burrowing is good.  It seemed to me, though, that the spines are not barbed, so whatever barbed defense we have should be kind of weak.   Maybe even just an improved natural armor bonus.  Yes on the Climb bonus.  I'd agree on no saves vs cold environments and double damage on a failed save vs hot environment dangers.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmm, I guess that first tidbit can go in flavor if you want.




Do. Not. Want.  



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Improved burrowing is good.  It seemed to me, though, that the spines are not barbed, so whatever barbed defense we have should be kind of weak.   Maybe even just an improved natural armor bonus.  Yes on the Climb bonus.  I'd agree on no saves vs cold environments and double damage on a failed save vs hot environment dangers.




Interesting.  I'm not familiar enough with them to realize that the barbs aren't "spiky".   Good to know.  Since their natural armor is already pretty good, that might suffice.

+4 Climb bonus?

How's this?

Temperature Regulation (Ex):  An echidna's lukewarm blood and embedded spines allow it to better tolerate cold temperatures, but also makes it more vulnerable to heat.  A giant echidna need not make a Fortitude save to avoid nonlethal damage in cold temperatures.  However, it suffers a -4 penalty on Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage in hot temperatures (see Heat Dangers in the DMG).


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Interesting.  I'm not familiar enough with them to realize that the barbs aren't "spiky".   Good to know.  Since their natural armor is already pretty good, that might suffice.




Here's the quote from what you posted above: "Echidna spines lack barbs and are never thrown from the body."



> +4 Climb bonus?
> 
> How's this?
> 
> Temperature Regulation (Ex):  An echidna's lukewarm blood and embedded spines allow it to better tolerate cold temperatures, but also makes it more vulnerable to heat.  A giant echidna need not make a Fortitude save to avoid nonlethal damage in cold temperatures.  However, it suffers a -4 penalty on Fortitude saves to avoid nonlethal damage in hot temperatures (see Heat Dangers in the DMG).




That all looks good.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 25, 2008)

I think it should get two claw attacks, but not especially powerful ones. Its claws are better at concentrated attacks on hard materials. Perhaps they ignore some of the hardness when attacking an object?

Demiurge out.


----------



## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

How about 1d4+(1/2) Str claw attacks as secondary natural weapons?  They ignore the first 5 points of hardness?


----------



## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Updated.

Does that capture everything we just discussed?


----------



## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

I think so.  I guess we need to add that this is also called a spiny anteater.  Should we add a primary bite attack but add that it can't bite when it is dragging or chewing?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 25, 2008)

Sounds reasonable to me.

Demiurge out


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

So, primary bite attack for 1d6 damage?


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Yeah, and add to drag and chew that the echidna cannot bite then.


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Skills: Listen 6, Spot 6 for ranks?

Feats: Multiattack, Track?, Endurance, Great Fort?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

I agree with most of that.  I'd drop Multiattack, since its claws weren't really intended for great use in combat.  Since it relies so heavily on its tongue sweep, I'd recommend Ability Focus (tongue sweep) replace Multiattack.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 29, 2008)

I say Ability Focus (tongue sweep), Endurance, Great Fort and Track for its feats.

Demiurge out.

Edit: Shade's write-up puts the claw attacks at -6 from the primary attack. The bite should be +10 (it looks like we forgot the size penalty to attack rolls).


----------



## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Those feats sound fine to me.  Since we're going with Track, do we want to swap the skill ranks to Listen 4, Spot 4, Survival 4?

Environment: Warm Land
Organization: Solitary
CR: 7?
The advancement line looks fine.


----------



## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

Updated.

Good catch on the size modifier for attack rolls.

Since we gave them Track, we should either give ranks in Survival and/or give them scent.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Think you missed my previous post, Shade. 



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Those feats sound fine to me. Since we're going with Track, do we want to swap the skill ranks to Listen 4, Spot 4, Survival 4?
> 
> Environment: Warm Land
> Organization: Solitary
> ...




I'd be fine with scent, too.  They do have quite the nose if you look at the pictures!


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Think you missed my previous post, Shade.




Indeed!

Let's go with both scent and the skill ranks you suggested.

At CR 7, the dire bear is much deadlier.  CR 5 is probably closer, as it compares favorably with the glyptodon and smilodon.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 29, 2008)

Agreed to 5.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

CR 5 is fine.

10 feet long and 100 lb?  That's just scaling up the high end of the real-world echidna.

Done?


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=199555&page=6]Updated[/URL].

Finished?


----------



## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Looks done to me!


----------



## Shade (May 2, 2008)

Here's another from the article:

*Goanna:* This iguana-like lizard often ends up as prime ingredient of Wallara dinners. The skins can be sold to the phanatons for 2-12 cp each (or equivalent barter value). AC 5, HD ½ (S), MV 120' (40'), AT 1 bite, D 1d4, NA 0 (l-20), Save F1, ML 7, TT Nil, Int 2, AL N, XP 5.

From Dragon Magazine #186 (192).

Not terribly interesting, eh?  But wait...

From Wikipedia:

"Being predatory lizards, goannas are often quite large, or at least bulky, with sharp teeth and claws. The largest is the Perentie (Varanus giganteus), which can grow over 2m in length. Goannas prey on all manner of small animals; insects, lizards, snakes, mammals, birds, eggs. Meals are often eaten whole, and thus the size of their meal may depend on the size of the animal itself, although all species are scavengers and will readily eat animals as large as cattle and camels. However, the Perentie has been observed killing a young kangaroo, and then biting out chunks of flesh like a dog. Goannas have even been blamed for the death of sheep by farmers, though most likely erroneously, as goannas are also eaters of carrion and are attracted to rotting meat."

"A goanna is a rather swift mover, and when pressed will sprint short distances on its hind legs."

"Some goannas recover from their initial fear of humans, especially when food is involved (or food has been involved previously). This reinforces the wildlife authority's mantra of not feeding animals while camping or erstwhile adventuring. This said, most authorities doubt that a goanna will actually direct an intentional attack on human unless said human attempts to attack it (or grasp at it) first. Aborigines who hunt goannas for food consider the Perentie as a high-risk (but tasty) prey."

"The debate whether goannas are venomous or not is growing. Previously it was thought that incessant bleeding caused by goanna-bites were the result of bacterial infection. Recent studies[1] suggest that monitor lizards (including goannas) are venomous and have oral toxin-producing glands."

"Other dangers a goanna presents is from its hefty tail. It can swing this much like a crocodile if cornered. Small children and dogs have been knocked down by such attacks. Often victims in goanna attacks are bystanders, watching the person antagonising the goanna. Alarmed goannas can mistake standing humans for trees and attempt to climb off the ground to safety, which is understandably painful, as well as distressing for both man and beast."

Check out the folklore section.  I'm already inspired to make a magical beast variant!


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 3, 2008)

I'd suggest magical beast only. Because goannas are definitely lizard, monitor from the SRD. Not worth a separate stat block, IMO.


----------



## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Huh, actually, the original stats are a cross between the lizard and monitor lizard in the SRD.  But it's true that a magical beast variant might be a better idea.


----------



## Shade (May 5, 2008)

I'm fine with just doing the magical beast variant, although the tail sweep might be enough to warrant a variant monitor lizard, and accepting the pro-venomous side of the debate could differentiate them further.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (May 5, 2008)

I'd say add tail slap and some mild poison to the bite (or maybe continual hp loss like wounding to go with the "incessant bleeding").


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2008)

I say magical beast only. A goanna is a monitor lizard, and those already have stats. 

Demiurge out.


----------



## freyar (May 5, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I say magical beast only. A goanna is a monitor lizard, and those already have stats.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 Fair enough.  But I say we add a tail slap and some sort of wounding property to the magical beast.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  But I say we add a tail slap and some sort of wounding property to the magical beast.



We can agree to that, certainly.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Shade (May 5, 2008)

OK, magical beast variant here we come.

For starters, what shall we call it?   "Greater goanna"?  "Mythic goanna"? "Goanngoanndanna"?   

I think within the writeup we should mention that the monitor lizard stats should be used for a mundane goanna.

Should we start with the monitor lizard stats, modify to magical beast, and go from there?


----------



## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Let's call it the Mythic Goanna.  That has a nice sound to it.  Agreed with pointing to the monitor lizard stats.

We could start with the monitor lizard stats, though the size and HD are wrong.  Do we want to bump to Medium and 3HD or start with the original 1/2 HD and Small?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

Let's start at Medium, 3 HD.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Here's a start based on the monitor lizard:

Goanna, Mythic
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 3d10+9 (25 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: x
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Climb +7, Hide +6*, Listen +4, Move Silently +6, Spot +4, Swim +11
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4–5 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: --

Skills: A monitor lizard has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. Monitor lizards have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. *In forested or overgrown areas, the Hide bonus improves to +8.


----------



## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Let's bump Int to 3 just because.   Maybe Cha should be bumped, too, depending on SAs we want to give it.

Add tail slap as secondary natural weapon at 1d6+1.5 Str?


----------



## Shade (May 6, 2008)

Let's consider those special abilities:

"A goanna is a rather swift mover, and when pressed will sprint short distances on its hind legs."

Sprint ability like cheetah?

"The debate whether goannas are venomous or not is growing. Previously it was thought that incessant bleeding caused by goanna-bites were the result of bacterial infection. Recent studies[1] suggest that monitor lizards (including goannas) are venomous and have oral toxin-producing glands."

and

"A common tale was that the bite of a goanna was infused with a powerful incurable venom. Every year after the bite (or every seven years), the wound would flare up again. For many years it was generally believed by herpetologists that goannas were nonvenomous, and that lingering illness from their bites was due solely to infection and septicaemia as a result of their saliva being rife with bacteria from carrion and other food sources. However, in 2005 researchers at the University of Melbourne announced that oral venom glands had been found in both goannas and iguanas."

Poison and/or wounding, as suggested upthread?

"Other dangers a goanna presents is from its hefty tail. It can swing this much like a crocodile if cornered. Small children and dogs have been knocked down by such attacks. Often victims in goanna attacks are bystanders, watching the person antagonising the goanna." 

Modified tail sweep?

"Alarmed goannas can mistake standing humans for trees and attempt to climb off the ground to safety, which is understandably painful, as well as distressing for both man and beast."

Climb speed or racial bonus on Climb checks?

"Because the goanna regularly eats snakes (often involving a fierce struggle between the two), they are often said to be immune to snake venom. The goanna does eat venomous snakes, but no evidence found suggests actual poison immunity. Other stories say the lizard eats a legendary plant, or drinks from a healing spring which neutralises the poison. This is immortalised in Banjo Paterson's humorous poem Johnson's Antidote."

Immunity/resistance to poison?

"Possibly related to the above poison immunity, goanna fat or oil has been anecdotally imbued with mystical healing properties. Aborigines traditionally used goanna oil as an important bush medicine,and it also became a common medicine among whites in Australia's early days. Said to be a cure-all for all sorts of ailments, and possessing amazing powers of penetration (passing through metal as if it were not there), it was sold amongst early settlers like snake oil in the Old West of North America."

Flavor text?


----------



## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Let's consider those special abilities:
> 
> "A goanna is a rather swift mover, and when pressed will sprint short distances on its hind legs."
> 
> Sprint ability like cheetah?




Yeah, I think so myself.  


> "The debate whether goannas are venomous or not is growing. Previously it was thought that incessant bleeding caused by goanna-bites were the result of bacterial infection. Recent studies[1] suggest that monitor lizards (including goannas) are venomous and have oral toxin-producing glands."
> 
> and
> 
> ...




I think definitely wounding due to the incessant bleeding.  Don't know about the would flaring up.  Poison that causes pain every time the character rolls a 1 on a check or attack roll?  Maybe Dex drain poison?


> "Other dangers a goanna presents is from its hefty tail. It can swing this much like a crocodile if cornered. Small children and dogs have been knocked down by such attacks. Often victims in goanna attacks are bystanders, watching the person antagonising the goanna."
> 
> Modified tail sweep?




I had just thought about a tail slap, but this does look like a downsized tail sweep.  I think we've done that before, too.

Here it was from the echidna just above:
Tongue Sweep (Ex): The giant spiny anteater attacks by sweeping with its tongue as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 20 feet, extending from an intersection on the edge of the anteater's space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are one or more size categories smaller than the anteater. Affected creatures must make a DC X Ref save or become stuck to the tongue (see Drag below) and take 1d6 points of acid damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.




> "Alarmed goannas can mistake standing humans for trees and attempt to climb off the ground to safety, which is understandably painful, as well as distressing for both man and beast."
> 
> Climb speed or racial bonus on Climb checks?



Sounds like a climb speed if it tries to climb when alarmed.  Man, having my cats climb up me is painful enough, so I don't want to know what this would feel like.



> "Because the goanna regularly eats snakes (often involving a fierce struggle between the two), they are often said to be immune to snake venom. The goanna does eat venomous snakes, but no evidence found suggests actual poison immunity. Other stories say the lizard eats a legendary plant, or drinks from a healing spring which neutralises the poison. This is immortalised in Banjo Paterson's humorous poem Johnson's Antidote."
> 
> Immunity/resistance to poison?




Probably a racial bonus to saves vs poisons, like +2.


> "Possibly related to the above poison immunity, goanna fat or oil has been anecdotally imbued with mystical healing properties. Aborigines traditionally used goanna oil as an important bush medicine,and it also became a common medicine among whites in Australia's early days. Said to be a cure-all for all sorts of ailments, and possessing amazing powers of penetration (passing through metal as if it were not there), it was sold amongst early settlers like snake oil in the Old West of North America."
> 
> Flavor text?



Yeah, flavor.


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

Yes to tail sweep, yes to poison (instead of wounding, have it do Con damage), yes to immunity to poison, yes to climb speed. 

No to sprinting. The two-legged thing can easily be flavor text for the run action.

Since they're magical beasts, we could make something out of goanna oil. Especially that "passing through metal". Perhaps they can make their bite a touch attack 3/day?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

OK, added to Homebrews.

I tried to incorporate everything we discussed, as well as pull in the flavor from Wikipedia and the original brief Dragon Mag entry.

Let me know if I missed anything, and offer suggestions for the "special bite" name.


----------



## freyar (May 7, 2008)

I've been outvoted! 

How about Penetrating Bite?

Probably still CR 2, maybe 3.

Goanna oil: immune to poison for 4 hours

Skins: phanatons purchase for 10gp?  Quite a bit of inflation, but they should be worth something if it's going to be mentioned.

Digging around on Wikipedia, seems like the weight should be 30-45 lb for Medium sized ones.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 8, 2008)

Ghost-oil bite?


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2008)

Let's go with ghost-oil bite, as it seems to me I've seen penetrating bite used before to describe a slightly different mechanic.

All of freyar's suggestions look good.

Do we want to mix up the feats and skills at all?

Allow advancement to Large?


----------



## freyar (May 8, 2008)

I like ghost-oil bite better anyway. 

Could go with Ability Focus (poison) instead of Great Fort.  Thoughts?

Yeah, let's add 6-8 HD (Large).  Why not?


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2008)

Yeah, I could see that.  Maybe also swap Alertness for Weapon Focus (tail slap)?

Also, how much Con damage for the poison?


----------



## freyar (May 8, 2008)

That would work, too.

Let's just do 1d4 Con primary and secondary.  It's only 3HD.


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2008)

Updated assuming those changes are OK with everyone.  If not, I can switch the feats back.


----------



## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Well, if demiurge likes the changes, I think it's probably done.   Another one for the pile!


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 8, 2008)

Looks good to me!


----------



## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Also from Dragon #186:

*Wakaleo:* These marsupial lions are rare creatures dwelling in the heavier forested areas. They climb trees and wait, hiding in the leaves, for unsuspecting preys. AC 5, HD 2 +2 (M), MV 150' (50'), AT 2 claws/l bite, D 1d2/1d2/1d4, NA 1-2 (1-4), Save F1, ML 9, TT Nil, Int 2, AL N, XP 25. Can surprise victims on a roll of 1-4 on a 1d6.

Wikipedia entry.

We could also use this as a springboard to the Marsupial Lion.


----------



## freyar (May 9, 2008)

Interesting, maybe more so in real life than D&D stats.   If these are Medium, it seems like Dragon 186 got the wakaleo confused with the larger marsupial lion since wikipedia lists the wakaleo as the size of a dog.  Want to do both?


----------



## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Sure.  One entry could probably cover the Thylacoleonids.


----------



## freyar (May 9, 2008)

Just use the advancement line?  Fair enough.  So should we start with Small and 2 HD (or drop to 1HD)?


----------



## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Let's drop to 1 HD for the possum-sized version.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Pound for pound, the Marsupial Lion had the strongest bite of any mammal species living or extinct; a 100 kg (220 lb) individual had a bite comparable to that of a 250 kg (550 lb) African Lion and is thought to have hunted large animals such as diprotodonts and giant kangaroos. It was the most specialised marsupial carnivore to have ever existed and had extremely strong forelimbs, with retractable claws, a trait previously unseen in marsupials. It was also armed with sharp carnassial teeth that could tear large chunks of meat off its prey, powered by very strong jaw muscles. In this it differed from placental carnivores which possess 'canine' teeth. Its strong forelimbs, retracting claws and incredibly powerful jaws mean that it may have been possible for it to climb trees and perhaps to carry carcasses to keep the kill for itself (similar to the leopard today).




So, it looks like Improved Natural Attack (like a tiger, except for bite instead of claw) and possibly augmented critical?

Climb speed or decent racial bonus to Climb?

The interactive tutorial at this link seems to indicate scent, pounce, and possibly improved grab.

And check out this:

"New research published in the Journal of Zoology suggests that Thylacoleo killed prey rapidly, using its “bolt-cutter” type teeth to scissor through hide and flesh to produce major trauma and blood loss."


----------



## freyar (May 9, 2008)

Yes to Imp Nat Atk and augmented crit.

Racial climb bonus, I think.  Doesn't quite sound like we're sure it had a climb speed.

Let's go with scent and pounce.

Might be even better to forget about Imp Nat Atk and just up the damage to a ridiculous amount, given that last bit.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 10, 2008)

Yeah. I'm never a fan of giving Imp. Natural Attack to a baseline creature, so let's just give them a high bite damage. I do like the idea of augmented critical.


----------



## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Alrighty.

Let's figure out ability scores.

Dowsizing a smilodon to Small yields...
Str 14, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6

Dowsizing a tiger to Small yields...
Str 11, Dex 19, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Dowsizing a lion to Small yields...
Str 11, Dex 21, Con 9, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Downsizing a leopard to Small yields...
Str 12, Dex 21, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

An already Small lynx has...
Str 7, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

An already Small serval has...
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

Since it could supposedly take a smilodon in battle, perhaps use the downsized smilodon physical stats so it is a match when advanced to Large?  We could just go with the typical lion's mental stats.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Let's use the smilodon's stats but make half of them odd.  So Str 15, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

It strikes me as strange that its Dex is higher than its Str. I'd always imagined Thacyleo as a big bruiser.


----------



## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Good point.  I think this is due to the fact that we're starting with the Small version.  For example, all the big cats have Dex > Str when downsized to Small (see Shade's post above).  This is actually closer to equal than most of them.  Still, we could go Str 16, Dex 17 if you want.


----------



## Shade (May 12, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Let's use the smilodon's stats but make half of them odd.  So Str 15, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6?




I'm just curious, but is there a half-even/half-odd suggested guideline somewhere, or is that just your personal preference?

I note that most official creatures do follow that formula, but not all.

Just curious.    



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> It strikes me as strange that its Dex is higher than its Str. I'd always imagined Thacyleo as a big bruiser.




Yeah, that's the odd thing about trying to cover these with a single stat block.  Maybe we'd be better off not starting Small and expecting size advancement to cover the various types.  Perhaps we should do like the big cats, and stat one out for each size, where the ability scores don't follow the usual size advancement rules.  Thoughts?


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

Ah. I missed the Small bit. Having a small and medium marsupial lion would probably be wise, although there won't be many changes aside from size advancement that we'll need to make, I imagine.


----------



## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm just curious, but is there a half-even/half-odd suggested guideline somewhere, or is that just your personal preference?
> 
> I note that most official creatures do follow that formula, but not all.
> 
> Just curious.




Hmm, I guess I thought the standard array was three 10s and three 11s, though now I look in the SRD it doesn't actually say that.  Well, chalk it up to preference, then. 

Well, let's get the small one right first, and then we can decide about how to get the Medium one.


----------



## Shade (May 12, 2008)

OK, so how about we craft the entry with three stat blocks:

Small (Priscileo)
Medium (Wakaleo)
Large (Thylacoleo)

Let's hammer out the ability scores for each size and then I'll Homebrew 'em.

Suggestions?


----------



## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Small: Str 15, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6  ?
Medium: Str 21, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 ?
Large: Str 29, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6 ?

I used WotC's trick of not quite doing the size advancement properly.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

The Str score on the Large is a little much. OK, a lot much--that's stronger than a dire bear! I say tone it down to Str 25 and I approve.

But then again, the Con is lower... if Shade's in favor of Str 29, I could easily be persuaded. Big punch, little staying power.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

If we drop Str on the Large to 25, we should probably drop it on all 3.  One point in favor of higher Str is that this thing is supposed to have the strongest bite of any mammal species ever (pound for pound).  But let's come to a consensus.  I just worked by starting with 15 at Small, +4 to Medium and bump by 2, then +8 to Large.  Could get rid of that bump by 2, but then it's just normal advancement.


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## Shade (May 13, 2008)

Yeah, lets drop the Str to 25.  That's still a point higher than the smilodon, and I agree that the dire bear should be the king of the Str.

We can simulate the powerful bite via augmented critical and a greater bite damage for its size, without overdoing its overall body strength.

I'm fine with keeping small at 15 and Medium at 21, even with the Large "only" at 25.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Eh, let's drop the Medium to 19 in that case.  That makes a little more sense to me.  Augmented crit and a higher damage for the bite works.

Don't usually see you here at night...


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

15/21/25 works for me, as does high base damage and augmented critical.


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## Shade (May 13, 2008)

I'm traveling for work tomorrow, so won't be dropping in, so figured I'd get in some converting now.  

I added the Medium sized one to Homebrews.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Base movement speed 30 ft?  +2 natural armor?


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

I would be up for giving the Small and the Medium ones either Climb speeds or racial bonuses to Climb checks--sort of a small cat/leopard analogue.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Shade's got a +x racial bonus to Climb in the Medium homebrew, so we can pick a number.  Maybe we can give the Small one a Climb speed but the Medium one just a high bonus?


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

Small gets a Climb speed, Medium gets a +4?


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Sounds ok to me.  We could even give Medium +8 and Large +4 if we want, but what you suggest also works.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

I don't see the big ones in trees so much. And a +8 racial bonus is almost as good as an actual Climb speed.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

Let's stick to +4 for Medium and nothing for Large then.


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## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Let's stick to +4 for Medium and nothing for Large then.



Agreed.


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Updated.

How many Hit Dice for the Large version?  A smilodon has 9 Hit Dice, so that might be a good starting point.

40 ft. speed for the Large?

+4 natural armor for Large (like smilodon)?

+1 natural armor for Small (like serval)?


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

10HD for Large?  Speed and natural armor sound good.


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## demiurge1138 (May 14, 2008)

Agreed to all of the above.


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

Updated.

Improved grab (bite)?  Pounce?


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

I'd say give them all improved grab but save pounce for the Medium & Large versions.


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2008)

I say give them all pounce. Those claw attacks don't bring too much to the party, and I like the idea of the arboreal ones jumping out of trees onto prey.


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## freyar (May 15, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I say give them all pounce. Those claw attacks don't bring too much to the party, and I like the idea of the arboreal ones jumping out of trees onto prey.



 Ahh, now I like that picture.  Ok, give them all pounce!


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Updated.

Any other special abilities?


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

I can't think of any at the moment.  For skills, put all the ranks in Spot since these are predators?   Maybe split the 13 ranks of the thylacoleo between Spot and Listen?


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

Skills should be Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot. They're ambush predators--not very fast, but damn powerful, so it makes sense for them to be able to sneak. Give them a racial bonus akin to cats?


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

The smaller ones don't have many ranks to split.  Here's my suggestion.

Priscileo: Spot 2, Listen 2; +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In leafy vegetation, the Hide bonus improves to +12.  Also +4 Hide bonus for being Small.  Either Alertness or Stealthy for the feat.

Wakaleo: Spot 2, Listen 3; +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12.  Alertness or Stealthy for the feat.

Thylacoleo: Spot 4, Listen 4, Hide 4, Move Silently 5; +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12.  Alertness, Stealthy, Run, & Multiattack.


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

Choose Stealthy for the Wakaleo and Priscileo, switch Run to Weapon Focus (bite) for Thylacoleo, and I agree.


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## freyar (May 18, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  Run was mostly a place-holder left over from the lion.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Looks good!

Updated.

Wikipedia provided the length and weight for the largest of them.  It lists wakaleo as "the size of a medium-sized dog" and priscileo as simply smaller than them.   Suggestions on the length/weights for the smaller two?


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

How about 4 ft and 100-150 lb for wakaleo?  With 2-1/2 feet for priscileo, 40-60 lb?


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

CR 1 for priscileo, CR 2 for wakaleo, and CR 5 for thylacoleo?

Environment:  Temperate and warm plains and forests?

Organization: Solitary for all of them?

Advancement: None (for Priscileo), 3-6 HD (Medium) for wakaleo, and 11-20 HD (Large) for thylacoleo?


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

That all sounds good.  Are they done then?


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

I think so.

Updated for one last look.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

It looks done to me.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

OK, back to the "real world" rather than prehistoric world for this thread...

*Kookaburra:* This kingfisher-like bird is well-known for its raucous, laugh-like call. As with the koalas, kookaburras are rumored to be incarnations of spirits who use their call to warn the travellers of impending dangers, or to mock their ignorance of the land. AC 7, HD ½ (S), MV 360' (120') flying or 30' (10') swimming, AT Nil, D Nil, NA 0 (l-2), Save F1, ML 6-8, TT Nil, Int 3, AL N, XP 20.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #186 (1992).

These would probably make good familiars.

Here's the Wikipedia entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kookaburra


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

As a familiar, the kookaburra would give a bonus to... Perform (comedy)? Bluff? Saves vs. fear?


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Good question.  Any of those you mentioned would work. Or maybe a bonus on Disguise checks made to disguise one's voice?

Or possibly grant a toned down version of the blue dragon's mimic ability?

Sound Imitation (Ex): A juvenile or older blue dragon can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC equal to that of the dragon’s frightful presence) to detect the ruse.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

I kind of like the bonus to Bluff or Disguise.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Let's get the basics going...

They are about 1-1/2 feet tall, so Tiny?

Other Tiny birds...
Owl:  Str 4, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 4
Raven: Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Ibis: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6

Maybe Str 3, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Since Wikipedia says they're not scared of picking hot meat off a grill, I figure their Con has to be decent.  Let's bump it to 12-13.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Couldn't that be as much a factor of Dex, though?

I can't really see these things as heartier than owls.  Anyone else have an opinion?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

If we're going to go with Dex, then let's at least make the Dex bonus a point higher than the owl's.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Fair enough.  So how about Str 3, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 7?


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Pretty reasonable.  Some sort of mimicry ability a la blue dragons?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2008)

Kookaburra don't mimic. They just laugh. Now, if we were doing a lyrebird...


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

What if we modify the sound imitation a bit...

Laughter Imitation (Ex): A kookaburra's call sounds like humanoid laughter. Listeners must succeed on a DC X Will save to detect the ruse.  A kookaburra does not intentionally use this ability to confuse humanoids, unless it has been taken as a familiar.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

I kind of like that.  Sure.  

Skills: Hide 2, Move Silently 2?  Or maybe Hide 4?  Seems to fit with the way it hunts.
Feat: Alertness?  Or Flyby Attack to go with the grill robbing? 

Let's give it good maneuverability.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Nearly all the predatory birds have Alertness and a racial bonus on Spot checks (most are +4).  All have Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, so I'd recommend doing the same here.

Most have ranks in Listen and Spot, with a few having Move Silently.

I like Flyby Attack for these fellas, though.

How about a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks and the following...

Skills:  Spot 4  (They'll get a +8 bonus on Hide due to size, and don't need to Move Silently since they generally just sit still and wait)
Feats:  Flyby Attack, Weapon Finesse (B)

Currently, I have a bite as the sole attack.  I couldn't tell by the Wikipedia entry whether they favor their beak or talons, or use both.  Anyone know?


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## freyar (May 30, 2008)

I like the skills and feats.  I'm happy with the bite, but I'll wait to hear from the ornithologists.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2008)

I did some Googling, and it appears kookaburras attack only with their beaks.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Updated.

Bite 1d3 damage?

CR 1/4 like an owl?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

Both sound reasonable.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Updated.

Advancement: None?


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Sounds good.  I think this is basically done, except I'd suggest one change on further reflection.  For laughter imitation, I think a Listen or maybe pure Wis check should be used in place of a Will save.  It just seems to make more sense that way.


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2008)

Good suggestion.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Looks good (and done) to me!


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Great!

*Koala:* This marsupial herbivore inhabits the eucalyptus forests of Wallara. Legends say it is the incarnation of a forest spirit, and thus is taboo for hunters. Medicine men sometimes use koalas as familiars. AC 8, HD ½ (S), MV 30' (10'), AT 1 claw, D 1d4, NA 0 (l-2), Save F1, ML 7, TT Nil, Int 3, AL N, XP 5.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #186 (1992).


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

I guess we need to drop the Int a little.  I'd suggest maybe starting with the cat statistics and probably increasing Str while dropping Dex.  I'm assuming we want to keep these Tiny.  So, maybe Str 5, Dex 13, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7?  Also, given how wicked their claws are, I'm happy with 1d4+Str damage but think we should go with 2 claw attacks.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2008)

Can we do the drop bear as a magical beast variant?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

I agree to everything in the two previous posts.  

Added to Homebrews.

Here's the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koala

Climb speed of 10 feet?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes on the climb speed.  What's the drop bear?  I'm getting a very amusing mental picture...

Also, what do you think about pushing Str up to 7 and Dex down to 11?  That matches the old AC better and gives them slightly better claw attacks.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Drop Bear

Enjoy.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

I agree with freyar on the ability scores.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Updated.



> It is generally a silent animal, but males have a very loud advertising call that can be heard from almost a kilometre away during the breeding season. When under stress, Koalas may issue a loud cry, which has been reported as similar to that of a human baby.




Racial bonus on Move Silently checks?

Wanna do anything with the call?



> The Koala lives almost entirely on eucalypt leaves. This is likely to be an evolutionary adaptation that takes advantage of an otherwise unfilled ecological niche, since eucalypt leaves are low in protein, high in indigestible substances, and contain phenolic and terpene compounds that are toxic to most species.




Racial bonus on saves vs. poisons?  Perhaps grant a bonus on saves vs. poisons if taken as familiars?



> Koalas that are disturbed are known to be violent, their teeth and claws capable of causing considerable injury to humans; special handling requirements are as such applicable.




Add a bite attack?



> Mature males are recognisable by the brown scent gland in the centre of their chest which they rub on the tree trunks to deter other koalas, especially other males, from entering their home trees.






> The koala's nose is one of its most noticeable features, being unusually large and covered in dark leathery skin. Koalas rely on their highly developed sense of smell to differentiate between types of eucalyptus leaves and, due to fluctuating levels of toxins in eucalyptus leaves, to detect the levels of toxicity in the leaves at any particular time. They also need to smell the scent warnings put on trees by other koalas. It’s thought that the koala’s keen sense of smell is already well developed at birth and assists the blind and immature newborn joey to find its way to the pouch, through the scent of the mother’s milk from the teats in the pouch.




Scent?



> Koalas’ large ears are a feature of their appearance and, as koalas live in populations where the individual animals live at relatively large distances apart, their keen sense of hearing is very important to their socialisation with other koalas and to their survival.




Racial bonus on Listen checks?



> Koalas’ eyes are relatively small in relation to the size of their other sensory features, such as their ears and nose, and their eyesight is not particularly highly developed.




No low-light vision?

A group of koalas is apparently called a "colony", but I cannot determine a specific number.  It sounds like they generally are one per tree, though.   So I suppose a colony size could be based upon a reasonable number of trees in a given encounter area.  This example shows about 10 sharing an area.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

I am highly amused that the drop bear seems to be "related" to Thylacoleo.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Racial bonus on Move Silently checks?
> 
> Wanna do anything with the call?



+4 and not really.



> Racial bonus on saves vs. poisons?  Perhaps grant a bonus on saves vs. poisons if taken as familiars?



That sounds promising.  +2?



> Add a bite attack?



Sure.  Another 1d4?


> Scent?



Yes.


> Racial bonus on Listen checks?



+4?


> No low-light vision?



Sounds fair.


> A group of koalas is apparently called a "colony", but I cannot determine a specific number.  It sounds like they generally are one per tree, though.   So I suppose a colony size could be based upon a reasonable number of trees in a given encounter area.  This example shows about 10 sharing an area.



3d6 koalas in a colony?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

Freyar's suggestions and responses all appeal.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Updated.

Since they are primarily nocturnal, is removing low-light vision too harsh?

"It has a speckled appearance, with patches of white fur, which makes koalas harder to spot from the ground."

+4 bonus on Hide checks in trees?

Skills: 4

Feats: 1

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm not terribly opposed to giving them back low-light vision.  Hide bonus in trees sounds right.  4 ranks in Listen?  Maybe Stealthy or Alertness for the feat.  Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.  CR 1/3?  1-3 HD (Tiny)?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

You know, having researched their height and weight, they almost should start at Small and remain that size with advancement.  I'm OK with sticking with Tiny for the base specimen, but all advancement outta make them Small.

4 ranks in Listen sounds good. (pardon the pun)

I think I prefer Stealthy since they shouldn't really have decent Spot.

I also think we should allow them to use Dex modifier on Climb checks.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2008)

Agreed on all counts.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for the drop bear?

Here's a fun site for inspiration:
http://geocities.com/muirnin/db.htm


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

To start, advance the koala to Small (with continuing advancement to Medium)?  Probably bump up the claw and bite damage dice an additional step, too.  Based on the geocities site, maybe a sprint ability and some sort of imp grab/crush attack.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

I'd say give it something like:

Crushing Pounce (Ex): When a drop bear charges an opponent from a higher elevation, it can make a full attack (including two rake attacks?). In addition, any opponent hit by at least one of the drop bear's attacks made while charging must make a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1 round. The save DC is Strength based.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Sounds good!  Definitely need to give it rake.  What do you think about sprint?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Added to Homebrews  based on the suggestions so far.

Should it be a magical beast instead?

I suggest we add the ability to knock its opponent prone as part of crushing pounce.

I could almost see rend as well.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Not sure about magical beast.

Knock prone: yes.  Rend: yes.  Make the rake +2 (1d8) each?  3x normal speed for sprint?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2008)

3x speed for sprint.

I'm a big fan of these as magical beasts. That way, we could give them a dim and malign intelligence.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

Updated to magical beast.

Increase Int to 3?

Are we OK with the other ability scores?  They seem a tad weak, even for Small.

Weapon Finesse (B) is a holdover from koala.  Unless we increase Dex, we can probably drop it.   Multiattack would make more sense as a bonus feat for them, methinks.


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2008)

Int 3, Str 14?   I'd go with Multiattack rather than WF.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2008)

Updated with those suggestions.

We have 1 more skill rank to assign.

Advancement: x

A drop bear is x feet long and weighs x pounds.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +x melee, damage x.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

I'd say put the rank into Move Silently so it can get a drop on more PCs. 

3-5 HD (Small), 6-8 HD (Medium)

3 ft long and 50-75 lb?

+5, 1d8+2?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Updated.

CR 2?  Their damage output is pretty heavy.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Yeah, that works for me. Done?


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

I think so.

Let's give the "and Vermin" portion of this thread a shot!

*Daddy Longlegs*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-15/15-25
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 18“
HIT DICE: 2 + 2
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: J-N, Q
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1/1
DMG/ATTACK: 1-6/3-12
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: See text
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

This creature is an oddity, even among spiders, and can provide dungeon adventurers with unexpected difficulty. The Daddy Longlegs, also known as the “harvester” or “mower” spider because of the scythe-like action of her legs, is especially numerous in the late fall of the year during harvest.

The cephalothorax and abdomen are fused into one unit which is supported by eight extremely long, thin legs. The legs effectively and speedily lift and carry the body beyond the reach of raiding giant ants and any thrusting sword, javelin, or standard spear (about 20 to 25 feet up). A pike mightr each, but this would require at least two strong men to wield it in that awkward position. Arrows have the standard effect.

The Daddy Longlegs is also equipped with a pair of glands, one on each side of her body, that emit a reddish, acrid vapor similar to that of the bombardier beetle.  Like the bombardier beetle if continually disturbed or attacked, there is a 50% chance each round that the spider will lift her body to the full extension of her legs and fire an 8’x8’x8’ cloud of gas that will cause 3-12 points of damage. The gas can be fired every third round, but no more than twice in an eight-hour span.

The Daddy Longlegs will attempt to flee just after using her gas attack.  In nature, the Daddy Longlegs has one other way to escape detection. She can hang from a web strand and rotate, or stand and vibrate, at so fast a rate that she becomes a near-invisible blur. In an AD&D adventure, characters seeking the Daddy Longlegs need to be very sharpsighted, or of the elven race, to detect a “spinning” spider, and then only if they are looking for it.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #67 (1982)


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2008)

Note that the creature above is actually drawn from two different creatures:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opiliones
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daddy_long-legs_spider

Giving this some thought, I think we should make the Opiliones the basic entry, and make the Pholcidae a variant.

A Medium monstrous spider has the following ability scores:

Str 11, Dex 17, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2

I could see raising the Dex a bit for these guys, and maybe reducing the Str and/or Con.   Thoughts?

To simulate the great height, I'm toying with the idea of giving it 20 ft. reach, and noting in a special ability that only the legs can be attacked by anything with less reach. 

Alternatively, we could make them Huge, but give them a modification of something like this ability:

Airy (Ex): Since a plague brush is constantly turning over and its anatomy is made up of a (relatively) small amount of plant matter and lots of empty space, it is difficult to know where to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack with a piercing weapon directed at a plage brush has a 20% miss chance. The blow or missle may pass through the creature's body without harming it. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2008)

I like the idea of Huge + airy. I'd also consider something similar to the narrow berth ability we gave that forest elephant--allowing it to fit into 10 or even 5 foot spaces.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

So how about Huge and Str 11, Dex 19, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2?

Here's a stab at the abilities...

Long-Legged (Ex): Since a daddy longlegs is mostly long, thin legs, its space/reach is much larger than its actual body.  As a result, it is difficult to to attack the creature. Any melee or ranged attack directed at a daddy longlegs has a 20% miss chance. Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature. 

Narrow Berth (Ex): Due to its long legs and small body, a daddy longlegs is treated as being one size smaller than it actually is for the purposes of squeezing (see page 149 of the Player’s Handbook for the rules for squeezing).


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## freyar (Jul 2, 2008)

Looks good to me!  Incidentally, should we call these "monstrous daddy longlegs" to distinguish them from the smaller mundane kind? 



> The Daddy Longlegs is also equipped with a pair of glands, one on each side of her body, that emit a reddish, acrid vapor similar to that of the bombardier beetle. Like the bombardier beetle if continually disturbed or attacked, there is a 50% chance each round that the spider will lift her body to the full extension of her legs and fire an 8’x8’x8’ cloud of gas that will cause 3-12 points of damage. The gas can be fired every third round, but no more than twice in an eight-hour span.




Converting from the bombadier beetle:

Acid Spray (Ex): When attacked or disturbed, the creature can release a X-foot cone of acidic vapor once per round. Those within the cone must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take XdX+X points of acid damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

I'm going to suggest 40-ft cone and either 1d4+Con (same as the beetle) or 1d6+Con.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

The 1e bombardier beetle dealt exactly the same damge, so we can simply copy its 3e damage.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

So 1d4+Con=1d4+1?



> The Daddy Longlegs will attempt to flee just after using her gas attack. In nature, the Daddy Longlegs has one other way to escape detection. She can hang from a web strand and rotate, or stand and vibrate, at so fast a rate that she becomes a near-invisible blur. In an AD&D adventure, characters seeking the Daddy Longlegs need to be very sharpsighted, or of the elven race, to detect a “spinning” spider, and then only if they are looking for it.



How about:

Spinning Concealment (Ex): A daddy longlegs can extrude a strand of webbing and hang from it as a standard action.  As a full-round action, the daddy longlegs can begin to spin very quickly on its thread.  When spinning, the daddy longlegs gains a +12 bonus to Hide checks and total concealment (50% miss chance).  Even a true seeing effect is useless for determining where and how to strike the creature.  The daddy longlegs can maintain its spinning by using a full-round action.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

The damage sounds good.

I like the ability.  I'll add it to the "daddly longlegs spider" variant bit at the bottom, since the real-world harvestman lacks this abiilty.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Looking good.  You have an "iis" on the description line.

Environment: Any Land or Any Forests?
CR: 1
Nest works for me in organization.
Advancement: 3-5 HD (Huge), 6-9 HD (Gargantuan)?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Looks good.

Although it isn't a true spider, do we want to give it any of this?

Tremorsense (Ex): A monstrous hunting spider can detect and pinpoint any creature or object within 60 feet in contact with the ground.

Skills: Monstrous spiders have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks. A monstrous spider can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Monstrous spiders use either their Strength or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. *Hunting spiders have a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +8 racial bonus on Spot checks.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Because their eyes cannot form images, they use their second pair of legs as antennae to explore their environment.



I'd say yes on Tremorsense based on that.

I think the racial skill bonuses look right except maybe the Spot checks.  What if we take the Spot check bonus away for the harvestman but put it in for the daddy longlegs spider?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> To deal with predators such as birds, mammals, amphibians, and spiders, some species glue debris onto their body, and many play dead when disturbed. Many species can detach their legs, which keep on moving to confuse predators, especially long-legged species vibrate their body ("bobbing"), probably also to confuse. This is similar to the behavior of the similar looking but unrelated daddy longlegs spider, which vibrates wildly in its web when touched. Scent glands emit substances that can deter larger predators, but are also effective against ants.



I'd say that the acid spray takes care of the scent glands.  Do you think the spinning is justified for the harvestmen also based on this?  Or should we give them some sort of distraction ability?  Or just leave them as is?


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Updated.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jul 4, 2008)

The original creature had treasure.  How about 1/10 coins, 50% goods, 50% items, which is what a monstrous spider gets?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

Treasure the same as that of monstrous spiders seems totally reasonable.


----------



## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

I'll have to agree with this treasure discussion, too.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The original creature had treasure.  How about 1/10 coins, 50% goods, 50% items, which is what a monstrous spider gets?




Good suggestion.  Updated.  Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2008)

I think it looks good!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

I say we're done.


----------



## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

*Boleadore Spider*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 3”*12”
HIT DICE: 4 + 4
% IN LAIR: 70%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1/1
DMG/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATT.: See text
SPECIAL DEF.: Nil
MAGIC RES.: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Truly an unusual creature, the boleadore spider hangs from a dragline and fashions a bola out of a blob of viscid silk attached to the end of a line of web silk.  The spider then swings the bola at her victim and entangles it.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #67 (1982)

Here's the Wikipedia entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bola_spider


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Comparing the stats, this is basically a variant Large monstrous spider whose web functions a bit differently.

Since 3e web-spinning spiders can throw a web like a net, to differentiate these perhaps make it an area attack allowing a Reflex save?  Maybe it swings the web in a x-foot radius?   Alternatively we could model it off the bonespear/cave fisher and do a catch-and-drag.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2008)

My vote is for cave fisher-y.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2008)

Modifying the cave fisher...

Drag (Ex): Once a creature sticks to a boleadore spider's web, the web fastens onto the opponent’s body. It attempts to drag the victim closer on its turn. This activity resembles the bull rush maneuver, except that the spider drags its victim 10 feet closer +1 foot for each point by which its Strength check exceeds the victim's. If a boleadore spider draws a creature to within 5 feet of itself, it can make its bite attack with a +4 attack bonus in the same round.

Web (Ex): A boleadore spider can string out its strong, sticky web to a length of x feet. The web can be dangled from a high ledge or niche, or strung horizontally across a spot likely to catch flying creatures. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become stuck. A boleadore spider can also fire its web up to x feet away (no range increment). If the web is currently deployed or severed, a boleadore spider cannot use this attack.

Reeling in an unattached web is a full-round action. A boleadore spider can disconnect its web as a free action.

A web has x hit points and hardness x. It can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. Attacking a boleadore spider's web does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the web is currently stuck to a target, the boleadore spider takes a –4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing a web deals no damage to a boleadore spider.


----------



## freyar (Jul 14, 2008)

Umm, 6 hp and hardness 3?  That's 1/2 the hp of a Large spider's sheet web and a decrease in "hardness" from the sheet web's DR 5/-.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

Sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

30 feet for the length of the web and how far it can be fired?

Tactics: A boleadore spider usually lies in wait with its web extended across a narrow opening.  If a potential victim spots the trap, the spider will release its web and fire a new one directly at the other creature.


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Sounds good.

Stick with standard poison for a Large monstrous spider?  

Give it the usual spider skill bonuses?


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

My inclination is to say yes to both.  However, I could also see reducing the Jump bonus some and increasing the Hide bonus even more than the usual web-spinning spider.  Also, this is missing in the SRD too, but shouldn't the stat block reflect the racial Move Silently bonus?


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

We could drop the bonus on Jump and Spot checks for hunting spiders, and just give them the web-spinning spider bonuses.

I believe the Move Silently isn't listed on the skills line since it only pertains to their web.  Of course, it makes sense to have the usual asterix like they do with conditional Hide bonuses.


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

That works for me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Looks good; is it done?


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated with flavor text.

Now we might be done.


----------



## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Quite right!


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

*Walking Stick*
AC:5 MV:6 HD:9 hp:54 #AT:3 Dmg:1-2/1-2/1-4 SA:Nil SD:Camouflage AL:N THAC0:12 

"Against a vine-covered tree leans an eight-foot tall bare wood staff. There is no sign of its owner"

If the characters look away, when they look back the staff will have moved. This is a giant walking stick, a relative of the praying mantis, but not nearly as aggressive as one, It moves if touched, standing up and waving its four forelegs. If unmolested, it then walks away. If the creature is attacked, it retreats into a stand of tall grasses from which it can fight using cover and gaining +2 on initiative.

Originally appeared in Adventure Pack I (1987).

Wikipedia Entry:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stick_insect

I've always been fascinated by these things.


----------



## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

Large vermin, then?  The giant praying mantis has Str 19, Dex 8, Con 15, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 11.  Why don't we drop Str a little and increase Dex (due to that initiative bit in the blurb)?  So Str 17, Dex 12, Con 15, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 11?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2008)

Might want to give it Imp. Init as a bonus feat.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Agreed to all that.

I've often thought that these would make interesting mounts.  Any objections to adding some text that "although vermin, giant walking sticks may be trained with the Handle Animal skill"?  Maybe a higher DC, like magical beasts?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 18, 2008)

The higher DC makes sense. I like it.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I copied the skill bonuses (other than climb) from the giant mantis.  Should the hide bonus be higher?

I actually found some precedent for vermin as mounts, so I copied the text over from the giant dragonfly.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 18, 2008)

That Hide bonus doesn't include the racial bonus, does it? It should be +1 (-4 size, +1 Dex, +4 racial). Frankly, I'd give it an even higher bonus in foliage.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Oops!  I had it as Huge, rather than Large, and imposed a -8 penalty.  I'll correct both.

How about we got with +12 in trees (live or dead) and +16 or even +20 when surrounded by foliage?


----------



## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

Shade said:


> I actually found some precedent for vermin as mounts, so I copied the text over from the giant dragonfly.




Didn't you convert the giant dragonfly in Dragon Mag, demiurge?




Shade said:


> Oops!  I had it as Huge, rather than Large, and imposed a -8 penalty.  I'll correct both.
> 
> How about we got with +12 in trees (live or dead) and +16 or even +20 when surrounded by foliage?




I like the boosted Hide bonus!

What's the poison from on the bite attack?  I would say it looks like the original text gives it also 2 claws at 1d2 damage, but the praying mantis doesn't get those.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> What's the poison from on the bite attack?  I would say it looks like the original text gives it also 2 claws at 1d2 damage, but the praying mantis doesn't get those.




Oops.  I didn't modify the mantis's attack lines at all.

Updated.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

freyar said:


> Didn't you convert the giant dragonfly in Dragon Mag, demiurge?




Yeah, but as a familiar, not a mount. The Dragon editorial staff resized my meganeura conversion to truly Giant size.


----------



## freyar (Jul 19, 2008)

This is looking good.

Training a normal animal as a combat mount is DC 20 and DC 15 as a normal mount.  Training a non-animal with Int 1-2 adds 5 to the DC.  Since this is Int -, probably we should add 10, so DC 25 or 30?

To get carrying capacity, I'm treating this as a Large quadruped, which means it gets a multiplier of x3 on the carrying capacity table.  So light load -258 lb, medium 259-519lb, heavy 520-780lb.

Temperate forests look good.
Stick with solitary?
Tough CR 3?
Advancement: 10-17 HD (Large), 18-26 HD (Huge)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 19, 2008)

CR 3 makes sense to me. The giant stag beetle, which is CR 4, has six less hp but an AC 4 higher and much stronger offenses.


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

I did a bit more searching, and apparently they are "largely tropical", so I'll change to "Temperate or warm forests".

Let's stick with DC 30 like the giant dragonfly and giant firefly.

Updated.

Check out this link for lots of facts:  http://www.cals.ncsu.edu/course/ent425/compendium/stick.html

"In some parts of the tropics, stick insects may be so abundant that eggs falling out of the trees may sound like rain on a tin roof."

I'd say that rules out solitary only.


----------



## freyar (Jul 21, 2008)

Maybe Solitary or Swarm (1d20)?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Do we want to do anything fun with this?

"Females do not have a well-developed ovipositor so they cannot insert their eggs into host plant tissue like most other Orthoptera.   Instead, the eggs are dropped singly onto the ground, sometimes from great heights."

"In some parts of the tropics, stick insects may be so abundant that eggs falling out of the trees may sound like rain on a tin roof. "

What about this?

"Glands located on the thorax of many species can produce a foul-smelling liquid that repels predators."


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2008)

I think the stink gland could be used. Ranged touch attacks for sickness or nausea?


----------



## Shade (Jul 22, 2008)

Let's go sickened, since they aren't real powerful.  1d4 rounds?


----------



## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

Sickened for 1d4 sounds good to me, but what about as an aura, like a troglodyte?  Do these actually squirt the stuff?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2008)

"Generally, phasmids rely on camouflage to evade predators, however, a number of species use active defences. Some species (e.g. Eurycantha) have large spines on the legs. By rapidly bringing their legs together the insects can use their spines to inflict a painful wound. Some species are also capable of making a loud, startling, hissing noise using their wings. Other species have brightly coloured wings, which they can flash to alarm predators. A number of species, such as Anisomorpha buprestoides, can produce a defensive spray capable of causing temporary blindness in humans, as well as much discomfort."

Sounds like either a ranged touch attack or a cone. Also, we may want to make its primary attacks kicks with powerful barbed hind legs. More flavorful than biting.


----------



## freyar (Jul 23, 2008)

Yeah, agreed on the kick.

I'd like to go with a cone, then, for the spray.  And blindness for 1d4 rounds rather than sickened. Sound good?


----------



## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

So...

Attack: Kick/leg-spines +8 melee (1d8+3)?
Full Attack: Kick/leg-spines +8 melee (1d8+3) and 2 claws +3 melee (1d2+1)?

Or should that be two kicks and drop the claws?

Defensive Spray (Ex):  Once every 1d4 rounds(?), x-foot cone, blindness for 1d4 rounds, Reflex(?) DC X negates.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

I think drop the claws.  1d4 and Ref sound about right.  20 ft cone or 30 ft?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

Agreed about dropping the claws, agreed to Ref and 1d4 rounds. Let's go 30ft for the range.


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Updated.

Do we want a single kick attack or multiple?


----------



## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

I'd say give them 2, and we're done.


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

We're a long way from done.  Just look at all those x's!  

A giant walking stick is 8 feet long and weighs x pounds. Coloration varies from brown to green, or even yellow.

Training a giant walking stick as a mount requires a successful Handle Animal check (DC 30). Giant walking stick eggs are worth x gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge x gp to tame a giant walking stick.

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a giant walking stick is up to 258 pounds; a medium load, 259-519 pounds; and a heavy load, 520-780 pounds. A giant walking stick can drag x pounds.


----------



## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Argh, the x, the x! 

100 lb?

200 gp, 1000 gp?  Anyone know of a good equivalent for these?

drag 3900 lb.  (usually you can drag 5x high end of heavy load)


----------



## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

freyar said:


> Anyone know of a good equivalent for these?




Giant Dragonfly eggs are worth 500 gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge 300 gp to tame a giant dragonfly.  (A&EG version)

Giant firefly eggs are worth 300 gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge 300 gp to tame a giant firefly.

A properly trained dragonfly mount is worth 4,000 gp on the open market.  (Dragon Mag version)


----------



## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Bump the eggs to 400 gp and put training at 600 gp?  So a trained mount is worth 1000gp plus maybe a little markup (say 1200gp)?


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Updated.  Are we finished?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

With the blindness cone and the stronger offense, I think this might be a CR 4.


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> With the blindness cone and the stronger offense, I think this might be a CR 4.




Agreed.  Good catch.


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Same here.  Looks good.


----------



## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Moving along...

*Caterpillar, Giant*
AC:7 MV:9 HD:13 hp:65 #AT:1 Dmg:2-12 SA:Spittle (1-6) SD:Camouflage AL:N THAC0:9 

While crossing the field by clambering over the leafy tronds and around the translucent hollow stems, the heroes encounter a large green branch that is actually the back of a giant caterpillar. The caterpillar attacks anyone walking across its back. This insect suffers double damage from cold-and fire-based attacks.

Originally appeared in Adventure Pack I (1987).

Similar creatures...

Giant Velvet Worm (H):  Str 22, Dex 11, Con 16, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 2
Tenebrous Worm (M): Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 2

First we'll need to decide on a size, since none is given.  At 13 HD, and the fact that multiple creatures can walk on its back, I'm thinking at least Huge.  Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

I think Huge.  I could go Gargantuan, but the HD might be a touch low.  Stats probably closer to the giant velvet worm.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

Huge is good. But let them advance all the way up to Colossal.

Sing it with me!

_Mosura ya Mosura
Dongan kasakuyan
Indo muu
Rusuto uiraadoa
Hanba hanbamuyan
Randa banunradan
Tounjukanraa
Kasaku yaanmu_


----------



## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Amen to that!


----------



## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggestions for spittle?  All we are given was "spittle (1-6)".

Wanna use this?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Caterpillar hair has been known to cause certain health effects. All species have small hairs that can irritate the skin, both through direct contact and from airborne hairs. Often, caterpillars produce venoms that are stored in these hairs as a defense against predators. Caterpillar species from approximately 12 families of moths or butterflies worldwide can inflict serious human injuries ranging from urticarial dermatitis and atopic asthma to osteochondritis, consumption coagulopathy, renal failure, and intracerebral hemorrhage.(Diaz 2005) Skin rashes are the most common, but there have been fatalities.
> 
> Caterpillar hairs have also been known to cause kerato-conjunctivitis. The sharp barbs on the end of Caterpillar hairs can get lodged in soft tissues and mucus membranes such as the eyes. Once they enter such tissues, they can be difficult to extract, often exacerbating the problem as they migrate across the membrane.(Patel et. al. 1973)


----------



## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

When's Godzilla going to show up? 

So, maybe Str 20, Dex 11, Con 16, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 1?  Not quite as good as the velvet worm?


----------



## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

I'm thinking we can keep the velvet worm's stats...maybe even increase the Strength based on this...



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Caterpillars have 4,000 muscles (compare humans, with 629). They move through contraction of the muscles in the rear segments pushing the blood forward into the front segments elongating the torso. The average caterpillar has 248 muscles in the head segment alone.




Imagine all those muscles increased to the size of a house!


----------



## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Think my last post overlapped with your first one today...

Yeah, bump to Str 24?  But I'd be fine with dropping Wis a little also as a "compensation."

For the spittle, make it a ranged touch (30ft, no range increments) that does acid.  1d6 might be a little low, maybe 2d6 instead?

Not sure what to do with the hairs.  If we upsize them, they'd be like large poison barbs, but you might not walk on it in that case.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2008)

Considering the picture and lyrics I posted, it should not surprise that I think the spittle should be silk based. Entangling, with multiple layers doing increasing cocooning until immobilization. The thorciasid from the Epic Level Handbook does something similar.

If we want to have a damaging spittle, I like the millions of tiny, irritating hairs option. Piercing damage plus sickened in a cone?


----------



## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Let's increase the Strength, but not drop the Wis, since most vermin have at least Wis 10.

This surprised me...



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Caterpillars have good vision. They have a series of six tiny eyelets or 'stemmata' on each side of the lower portion of their head. These can probably form well focused, but poorly resolved images.[3] They move their heads from side to side probably as a means of judging distance of objects, particularly plants. They rely on their short antennae to help them locate food.




Racial bonus on Spot checks?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Some caterpillars are able to detect vibrations, usually at a specific frequency. Caterpillars of the common hook-tip moth, Drepana arcuata (Drepanoidea) produce sounds to defend their silk nests from members of their own species,[4] by scraping against the leaf in a ritualized acoustic duel. They detect the vibrations conducted by the plant and not air-borne sounds. Similarly, cherry leaf rollers Caloptilia serotinella defend their rolls.[5] Tent caterpillars can also detect vibrations at the frequency of wing beats of one of their natural enemies.




Tremorsense?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> More aggressive self-defense measures are taken by caterpillars. These caterpillars have spiny bristles or long fine hair-like setae with detachable tips that will irritate by lodging in the skin or mucous membranes.[3] However, some birds, like cuckoos, will swallow even the hairiest of caterpillars. The most aggressive defenses are bristles associated with venom glands, called urticating hairs; a venom among the most potent defensive chemicals in any animals is produced by the South American silk moth genus Lonomia. It is an anticoagulant powerful enough to cause a human to hemorrhage to death (See Lonomiasis).[8] This chemical is being investigated for potential medical applications. Most urticating hairs however range in effect from mild irritation to dermatitis.




I suppose we could make several variants based on the deadliness of the hairs.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Plants have evolved poisons to protect themselves from herbivores and some caterpillars have evolved countermeasures and eat the leaves of these toxic plants. In addition to being unaffected by the poison, they sequester it in their body, making them highly toxic to predators. These chemicals are also carried on into the adult stages. These toxic species, such as the Cinnabar moth (Tyria jacobaeae) and monarch (Danaus plexippus) caterpillars, usually advertise themselves with brightly striped or coloured in black, red and yellow—the danger colours (see aposematism). Any predator that attempts to eat a caterpillar with an aggressive defence mechanism will learn and avoid future attempts.




Another variant, with resistance to poison and poisonous flesh?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Some caterpillars regurgitate acidic digestive juices at attacking enemies. Many papilionid larvae produce bad smells from extrudable glands called osmeteria.




There's the inspiration for the acid spittle.  I think the 2d6 you suggested is probably good.   It looks like stench could be another variant.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Caterpillars can evade predators by using a silk line and dropping off from branches when disturbed.




I'm not sure what to do with that.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Some caterpillars obtain protection by associating themselves with ants. The Lycaenid butterflies are particularly well known for this. They communicate with their ant protectors by vibrations as well as chemical means [9] and typically provide food rewards.




That could be interesting for the Organization line.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Some caterpillars are gregarious; large aggregations are believed to help in reducing the levels of parasitization and predation.[10] Clusters amplify the signal of aposematic coloration, and individuals may participate in group regurgitation or displays.




Further proof that they aren't solitary.


----------



## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

I think you guys might have overlapped your posts.  Anyway, it sounds like we may have a few variants (perhaps like there are variants of the monstrous spider).

Racial Spot bonus I like.  Tremorsense maybe.

Let's make a base with no poison and normal acid spittle.  Then variants with (1) cocooning spittle (2) poison hairs (3) poison flesh.

Don't think we can do much with the silk lines, unless we want to give them web throwing.  These guys are too big to drop off trees.  Walk over and crush trees, maybe.

Organization could indeed be interesting.  Maybe formians farm these?


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

Let's put +8 for the Hide bonus.

For acid spittle, maybe every 1d4 rounds and 40 ft range.

Under the variants, "abilitys" needs to be "abilities."


----------



## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

freyar said:


> Under the variants, "abilitys" needs to be "abilities."




Sleep deprivation does interesting things.  

Updated.

CR 5 for the standard version?


----------



## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

CR 5 seems fair.  For the organization, maybe "cluster"?


----------



## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

How many would you recommend for a cluster?

A giant caterpillar is x feet long and weighs around x pounds. 

*Because of its camouflage, the Hide bonus increases to +x when a giant caterpillar is surrounded by foliage.

Shall we tackle some of the variant special abilities?

Here's the thorciasid ability Demiurge mentioned upthread...

Cocoon (Ex): A thorciasid can eject a stream of noxious goo that hardens on contact, potentially fixing a subject in place and hindering its movement and actions. Using a standard action, the thorciasid makes a ranged touch attack against any foe it can see up to 60 feet away. If it succeeds at the ranged touch attack, the subject makes a grapple check against the cocoon. This is accomplished as if the thorciasid itself were making the grapple check with a competence bonus of +10, for a total check modifier of +37. On a failed check for the subject, the goo hardens into a partial cocoon, and the victim is treated as if grappled (even though the thorciasid is free to do as it desires). The subject can attempt to break the grapple of the cocoon (or use Escape Artist) each round, making an opposed grapple check against the cocoon (check modifier +37 for the cocoon).

A thorciasid can reinforce a partial cocoon by spending a standard action secreting additional goo. Each action so spent provides an additional +5 to the cocoon's grapple check modifier. Visually, the victim becomes more and more covered and is finally completely encased in a cocoon. Even fully encased victims can still breathe, and a thorciasid can drain a victim's life force at its leisure.


----------



## freyar (Aug 9, 2008)

15 ft long and 7000 lb?

Increase Hide to +12?

The cocoon looks good.  I guess we can just decrease the bonuses.  Since we have a vermin, we can probably drop the bit about reinforcing the cocoon -- the caterpillar wouldn't think to do that.


----------



## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

Updated.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> More aggressive self-defense measures are taken by caterpillars. These caterpillars have spiny bristles or long fine hair-like setae with detachable tips that will irritate by lodging in the skin or mucous membranes.[3] However, some birds, like cuckoos, will swallow even the hairiest of caterpillars. The most aggressive defenses are bristles associated with venom glands, called urticating hairs; a venom among the most potent defensive chemicals in any animals is produced by the South American silk moth genus Lonomia. It is an anticoagulant powerful enough to cause a human to hemorrhage to death (See Lonomiasis).[8] This chemical is being investigated for potential medical applications. Most urticating hairs however range in effect from mild irritation to dermatitis.




Something like the hamatula's barbed defense, but with injury poison?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Plants have evolved poisons to protect themselves from herbivores and some caterpillars have evolved countermeasures and eat the leaves of these toxic plants. In addition to being unaffected by the poison, they sequester it in their body, making them highly toxic to predators. These chemicals are also carried on into the adult stages. These toxic species, such as the Cinnabar moth (Tyria jacobaeae) and monarch (Danaus plexippus) caterpillars, usually advertise themselves with brightly striped or coloured in black, red and yellow—the danger colours (see aposematism). Any predator that attempts to eat a caterpillar with an aggressive defence mechanism will learn and avoid future attempts.




Poison Flesh (Ex):  Ingested, Fort DC X, 1d6 Con/1d6 Con?.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Poison Flesh looks good.  For the hairs, I think barbed defense with injury poison that does 1d3 Dex/1d3 Dex might be good.  Since there's poison, maybe just a small amount of damage, like 1d4?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2008)

Low damage plus poison sounds good with the barbed hairs.


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Updated.

Fill in the blanks...

Spit Hairs (Ex): Once every 1d4 rounds, this variant may spit an x-foot cone of millions of tiny, irritating hairs. This attack deals xdx points of piercing damage and leaves the victim sickened for x rounds. A successful DC 19 Reflex save halves the damage and negates the sickened effect. The save DC is Constitution-based. This ability replaces the acidic spittle.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Many papilionid larvae produce bad smells from extrudable glands called osmeteria.




Borrow this?

Stench (Ex): When a troglodyte is angry or frightened, it secretes an oily, musk-like chemical that nearly every form of animal life finds offensive. All living creatures (except troglodytes) within 30 feet of a troglodyte must succeed on a DC 13 Fortitude save or be sickened for 10 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures that successfully save cannot be affected by the same troglodyte’s stench for 24 hours. A delay poison or neutralize poison spell removes the effect from the sickened creature. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

2d6 damage and sickened for 1d4 rounds?

Stench sounds good.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Updated.

Which of the special abilities are worthy of a CR increase?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Updated.

Which of the special abilities are worthy of a CR increase?

Did we ever decide on a number for the cluster?


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

I think the variant spits (cocoon, hairs) are +0 if swapped for acid, probably +1 if added.  Poison flesh is +0, Stench and Poison Hairs might be +1 each (any thoughts?).

Do we need to give a break DC for the cocoon or state that it falls apart after so long?

1d6 for a cluster?  Do we want to put in something about formians farming them based on the relationships with ants?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> Do we need to give a break DC for the cocoon or state that it falls apart after so long?




Dunno.  The thorciascid doesn't appear to have one.



freyar said:


> 1d6 for a cluster?  Do we want to put in something about formians farming them based on the relationships with ants?




Sure. 

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Looks pretty good.

Regarding the cocoon: the thorciasid is epic, though, and should be nastier.  I guess I'd also put in a break DC, but I will bow to your judgment.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> Regarding the cocoon: the thorciasid is epic, though, and should be nastier.  I guess I'd also put in a break DC, but I will bow to your judgment.




I'm fine with including one.  Make it Con-based?


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with including one.  Make it Con-based?



Sure.  That would be DC 19, tough enough?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

So...

Cocooning Spittle (Ex): A giant caterpillar with this ability can eject a stream of spittle that hardens on contact, potentially fixing a subject in place and hindering its movement and actions. Using a standard action, the caterpillar makes a ranged touch attack against any foe it can see up to 60 feet away. If it succeeds at the ranged touch attack, the subject makes a grapple check against the cocoon. This is accomplished as if the caterpillar itself were making the grapple check with a competence bonus of +10, for a total check modifier of +33. On a failed check for the subject, the spittle hardens into a partial cocoon, and the victim is treated as if grappled (even though the caterpillar is free to do as it desires). The subject can attempt to break the grapple of the cocoon (or use Escape Artist) each round, making an opposed grapple check against the cocoon (check modifier +33 for the cocoon).  Alternatively, the cocoon may be broken with a DC 19 Strength check.  The check DC is Constitution-based.  This ability replaces the acidic spittle.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

That looks pretty good to me!


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> That looks pretty good to me!



To me, too.  I think it's done with that change.


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

*Mosquito, giant*
by Jeffrey Morris

*Wriggler*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Water
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 3-30
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: Sw 6
HIT DICE: 4
THACO: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5' long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 120

*Male*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-24
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 15(B)
HIT DICE: 6
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7' long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 420

*Culex*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 24(B)
HIT DICE: 7
THACO: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9' long)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 975

*Anopheles*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-16
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 18(B)
HIT DICE: 8
THACO: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (12' long)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 1,400

Giant mosquitoes are a plague to humans and other warm-blooded creatures. They can exist in any climate or terrain except in completely waterless deserts. They seek out mammalian blood to produce their young. A giant mosquito begins life as a larva or wriggler, then metamorphoses into either a female or male adult (the males of the two species described here are nearly identical).

Wrigglers look like large, aquatic caterpillars. Their broad heads have antennae on the front and compound eyes toward the back. They have long, hairy mandibles for biting prey.

Female adults have long proboscises equipped with internal sty lets for seizing prey; the males' proboscises have no stylets, but males do have sharp claws on their front legs. Otherwise, adult males outwardly resemble the females of their species. All giant mosquitoes have two wings, six legs, and compound eyes. When flying, they can hover, take off and land vertically, and fly backward at one-third speed.

Culex mosquitoes have mottled gray thoraxes. Their abdomens have black and gold bands. Culex wings are clear and scaleless, allowing them to fly faster and farther than Anopheles mosquitoes.

Anopheles mosquitoes have brown thoraxes and black bands on their abdomens. Their legs and proboscises are longer and more powerful than the culex's, and their wings are covered with heavy black scales.

*Combat*: Wrigglers grab prey with their mandibles. If the victim is small or tiny, the wriggler will hold on and try to swallow it; the victim takes no damage from the mandibles, but must save vs. death each round or be swallowed. Only killing the wriggler or a successful bend bars roll will free a victim. A swallowed victim suffers 1d6 points of acid damage each round until totally digested. A wriggler can be attacked internally only with small cutting weapons such as daggers, and then only if the weapon was in hand when the victim was swallowed, A wriggler's internal Armor Class is 7.

Males simply slash at opponents with their claws. They vigorously defend the swarm's females and never retreat or surrender.

Females stab victims with their proboscises. If a female giant mosquito inflicts six or more points of damage in a single hit, she has grabbed her victim with her sty lets and will begin draining the victim's blood the next round. Each round of blood drain robs the victim of one point of Strength and gives the female mosquito one hit point. When the mosquito has drained as many points of Strength as she has hit dice (seven points for a culex, eight for an anopheles), she detaches herself and flies away to lay eggs.

Lost points of Strength are regained at the same rate as lost hit points, either through rest or magical healing. However, all Strength losses must be restored before any damage can be cured., A victim drained to less than three points of Strength falls unconscious. A victim drained to a Strength of zero dies.

Many giant mosquitoes carry a horrible disease with variable effects. The chance that a mosquito carries a disease varies with the climate: Arid/tropical 25%, non-arid/ tropical 50%, temperate 10%, sub arctic 5%, arctic 1%. A creature bitten by a diseased mosquito must save vs. poison or develop the disease in 3d12 hours. A victim can acquire the disease only once during a single encounter with a group of giant mosquitoes. When the disease appears, roll 1d4 for the effect: 1. The victim becomes incapacitated by alternating fever and chills which persist for 1d3 days. These bouts of fever and chills recur every 1d4 + 1 months for the rest of the victim's life or until the disease is cured. During the initial attack, the victim must make a Constitution check each day or die. The recurring attacks, if any, are painful but not deadly. 2. One of the victim's limbs (determine randomly) swells to four times normal size and becomes useless. The victim loses one point of Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma; if the limb is a leg, the victim's movement is slowed by half. The swelling and penalties persist until the disease is cured. 3. The victim's eyes and eyelids become swollen, causing blindness. A cure blindness spell temporally restores sight (ld4 days), but the condition persists until cured. 4. The victim's Strength and Constitution drop by five points and the victim falls into a coma for 2d12 hours. If either ability score drops to zero or less the victim dies. The bouts of coma recur every 1d4 + 1 months for the rest of the victim's life or until cured.

*Habitat/Society*: Culex mosquitoes most often dwell in urban areas, where the supply of human and demi-human blood is abundant. Anopheles mosquitoes prefer animal blood, and usually are found in the wilderness. Female giant mosquitoes lay eggs every time they drain their fill of blood-10-30 eggs per clutch. A single female giant mosquito can lay as many as 300 eggs in her lifetime. About two-thirds of the eggs hatch and become wrigglers. Since wrigglers are cannibalistic, only about one in 10 wrigglers becomes an adult. It takes about a month for an egg to become an adult mosquito. Adult males live about one month, females live two or three months.
Giant mosquitoes travel in swarms of assorted individuals of the same species. To randomly determine the size of a swarm, roll once for males and once for females according to the entry in the Number Appearing entry. The swarms lair in hollow trees, caves, or abandoned buildings. If the temperature drops below freezing, most giant mosquitoes die, but some hibernate, especially wrigglers, who bury themselves underwater.

*Ecology*: Wrigglers consume fish, insects, and any other creatures they can catch underwater. Though they will attack and kill anything, the seldom eat creatures they cannot swallow whole. Wriggler meat is considered a delicacy in some parts of the world. Adult mosquitoes eat only blood. In addition to nourishment, females need large quantities of blood to stimulate their ovaries to produce eggs. Many insectivorous animals prey on giant mosquitoes, including giant bats, frogs, toads, and dragonflies; giant mosquitoes are too stupid to fear these creatures.

Originally appeared in Polyhedron Magazine #67 (1992).


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Wowsers.  I guess these are too big even to do swarms!

4 different critters, then?  Should we do the wigglers first?


----------



## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Sure.

Let's start with ability scores:

Str 10, Dex 17, Con 11, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2?



> Wrigglers grab prey with their mandibles. If the victim is small or tiny, the wriggler will hold on and try to swallow it; the victim takes no damage from the mandibles, but must save vs. death each round or be swallowed. Only killing the wriggler or a successful bend bars roll will free a victim. A swallowed victim suffers 1d6 points of acid damage each round until totally digested. A wriggler can be attacked internally only with small cutting weapons such as daggers, and then only if the weapon was in hand when the victim was swallowed, A wriggler's internal Armor Class is 7.




Improved grab/swallow whole against Small or smaller creatures?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Abilities look good.  I'd agree with Imp Grab and Swallow Whole vs Small or smaller, yes.  Probably 1d6 acid inside, 10 pts damage vs AC 13 to escape?  If we go with that AC, we know that these have +6 natural armor.  That's a bit high.  How about dropping Dex to 13 with natural armor +2, gizzard AC 11?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Any bludgeoning damage for swallow whole?

Environment: Any aquatic?

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: x

A wriggler is 5 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

We could do a little bludgeoning damage, maybe 1d4?  Also, as demiurge pointed out in the other thread, maybe these should only be able to swallow Tiny and smaller critters.

Environment, CR look good.  Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium), 9-16 HD (Large)?  100 lb?


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

freyar said:


> We could do a little bludgeoning damage, maybe 1d4?  Also, as demiurge pointed out in the other thread, maybe these should only be able to swallow Tiny and smaller critters.




Yeah, good idea.



freyar said:


> Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium), 9-16 HD (Large)?




On second thought, shouldn't advancement just be to adult, which occurs at 6 HD?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Oops, yes, you're right about the advancement, wasn't paying attention.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for the male?


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Looks good.  Ready!


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

*Male*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-24
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 15(B)
HIT DICE: 6
THACO: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7' long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 420

Giant mosquitoes are a plague to humans and other warm-blooded creatures. They can exist in any climate or terrain except in completely waterless deserts. They seek out mammalian blood to produce their young. A giant mosquito begins life as a larva or wriggler, then metamorphoses into either a female or male adult (the males of the two species described here are nearly identical).

Female adults have long proboscises equipped with internal stylets for seizing prey; the males' proboscises have no stylets, but males do have sharp claws on their front legs. Otherwise, adult males outwardly resemble the females of their species. All giant mosquitoes have two wings, six legs, and compound eyes. When flying, they can hover, take off and land vertically, and fly backward at one-third speed.

*Combat*: Males simply slash at opponents with their claws. They vigorously defend the swarm's females and never retreat or surrender.

Many giant mosquitoes carry a horrible disease with variable effects. The chance that a mosquito carries a disease varies with the climate: Arid/tropical 25%, non-arid/ tropical 50%, temperate 10%, sub arctic 5%, arctic 1%. A creature bitten by a diseased mosquito must save vs. poison or develop the disease in 3d12 hours. A victim can acquire the disease only once during a single encounter with a group of giant mosquitoes. When the disease appears, roll 1d4 for the effect: 1. The victim becomes incapacitated by alternating fever and chills which persist for 1d3 days. These bouts of fever and chills recur every 1d4 + 1 months for the rest of the victim's life or until the disease is cured. During the initial attack, the victim must make a Constitution check each day or die. The recurring attacks, if any, are painful but not deadly. 2. One of the victim's limbs (determine randomly) swells to four times normal size and becomes useless. The victim loses one point of Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma; if the limb is a leg, the victim's movement is slowed by half. The swelling and penalties persist until the disease is cured. 3. The victim's eyes and eyelids become swollen, causing blindness. A cure blindness spell temporally restores sight (ld4 days), but the condition persists until cured. 4. The victim's Strength and Constitution drop by five points and the victim falls into a coma for 2d12 hours. If either ability score drops to zero or less the victim dies. The bouts of coma recur every 1d4 + 1 months for the rest of the victim's life or until cured.

*Habitat/Society*: Culex mosquitoes most often dwell in urban areas, where the supply of human and demi-human blood is abundant. Anopheles mosquitoes prefer animal blood, and usually are found in the wilderness. Female giant mosquitoes lay eggs every time they drain their fill of blood-10-30 eggs per clutch. A single female giant mosquito can lay as many as 300 eggs in her lifetime. About two-thirds of the eggs hatch and become wrigglers. Since wrigglers are cannibalistic, only about one in 10 wrigglers becomes an adult. It takes about a month for an egg to become an adult mosquito. Adult males live about one month, females live two or three months.
Giant mosquitoes travel in swarms of assorted individuals of the same species. To randomly determine the size of a swarm, roll once for males and once for females according to the entry in the Number Appearing entry. The swarms lair in hollow trees, caves, or abandoned buildings. If the temperature drops below freezing, most giant mosquitoes die, but some hibernate, especially wrigglers, who bury themselves underwater.

*Ecology*: Adult mosquitoes eat only blood. In addition to nourishment, females need large quantities of blood to stimulate their ovaries to produce eggs. Many insectivorous animals prey on giant mosquitoes, including giant bats, frogs, toads, and dragonflies; giant mosquitoes are too stupid to fear these creatures.[/QUOTE]


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## Whitemouse (Sep 15, 2008)

Just out of curiousity, how would a mouse be any different from a rat, statistics and ability wise?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Whitemouse said:


> Just out of curiousity, how would a mouse be any different from a rat, statistics and ability wise?




Not much.  Here's the DM guide mouse:

Mouse: No familiar is as small and innocuous as a simple mouse, able to move almost anywhere unseen. Mouse familiars provide their masters with a +2 bonus to Hide checks. Mice cannot do any damage in combat. They eat vegetables and grains, primarily.

Mouse: CR -; Fine Magical Beast; HD 1; hp 1/2 master's; Init +0; Spd 10 ft., climb 10 ft.; AC 19 (touch 18, flat-footed 17); Base Atk +0; Grp -21; Atk -; Full Atk -; Space/Reach: 1/2 ft./0 ft.; SQ improved evasion, scent, granted abilities; AL Any; SV Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +1; Str 1, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 2.
Skills and Feats: Balance +8, Climb +10, Hide +20, Move Silently +12.

And here's a dire mouse we came up with for a different conversion...

Dire Mouse
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/–6
Attack: Bite +4 melee (x-2)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (x-2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +11, Hide +17, Jump +15, Move Silently +13, Swim +11
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse (B)
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or family (5–20)
Challenge Rating: 1/4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2–3 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: -

Skills: Dire mice have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently, and Swim checks. They can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. Dire mice use their Dexterity modifier for Climb, Jump, and Swim checks.


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## Whitemouse (Sep 15, 2008)

Many thanks Shade!


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Back to the male mosquito, maybe Str 10, Dex 15, Con 11, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 2?  More or less like the wriggler, but a little more agile?  Any thoughts on that?


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

I think that seems reasonable.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

In that case, they get a flight speed, probably with good maneuverability (though I guess there's a conversion for that).  Also 2 claw attacks at 1d4 damage.  

Should the males get the disease, or only females?  I'd lean toward females, just because they're the only ones that bite.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

freyar said:


> In that case, they get a flight speed, probably with good maneuverability (though I guess there's a conversion for that).  Also 2 claw attacks at 1d4 damage.
> 
> Should the males get the disease, or only females?  I'd lean toward females, just because they're the only ones that bite.




Agreed to all that.  I'll get a Homebrews started.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Huh, is this almost done already?  Maybe any land for environment (or any temperate or warm land).  I'd say it looks like a CR 3.  10-15 lb or should it be more?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Let's go with "any land", since mosquitos can even be found in Antartica.  

Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Man, you'd like to think you could escape them somewhere...

Edit: Forgot to say that I think we're ready for the first of the females.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

*Culex*

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Swarm
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 24(B)
HIT DICE: 7
THACO: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (9' long)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 975

Female adults have long proboscises equipped with internal sty lets for seizing prey; the males' proboscises have no stylets, but males do have sharp claws on their front legs. Otherwise, adult males outwardly resemble the females of their species. All giant mosquitoes have two wings, six legs, and compound eyes. When flying, they can hover, take off and land vertically, and fly backward at one-third speed.

Culex mosquitoes have mottled gray thoraxes. Their abdomens have black and gold bands. Culex wings are clear and scaleless, allowing them to fly faster and farther than Anopheles mosquitoes.

*Combat*: Females stab victims with their proboscises. If a female giant mosquito inflicts six or more points of damage in a single hit, she has grabbed her victim with her sty lets and will begin draining the victim's blood the next round. Each round of blood drain robs the victim of one point of Strength and gives the female mosquito one hit point. When the mosquito has drained as many points of Strength as she has hit dice (seven points for a culex, eight for an anopheles), she detaches herself and flies away to lay eggs.

Lost points of Strength are regained at the same rate as lost hit points, either through rest or magical healing. However, all Strength losses must be restored before any damage can be cured., A victim drained to less than three points of Strength falls unconscious. A victim drained to a Strength of zero dies.

Many giant mosquitoes carry a horrible disease with variable effects. The chance that a mosquito carries a disease varies with the climate: Arid/tropical 25%, non-arid/ tropical 50%, temperate 10%, sub arctic 5%, arctic 1%. A creature bitten by a diseased mosquito must save vs. poison or develop the disease in 3d12 hours. A victim can acquire the disease only once during a single encounter with a group of giant mosquitoes. When the disease appears, roll 1d4 for the effect: 1. The victim becomes incapacitated by alternating fever and chills which persist for 1d3 days. These bouts of fever and chills recur every 1d4 + 1 months for the rest of the victim's life or until the disease is cured. During the initial attack, the victim must make a Constitution check each day or die. The recurring attacks, if any, are painful but not deadly. 2. One of the victim's limbs (determine randomly) swells to four times normal size and becomes useless. The victim loses one point of Dexterity, Constitution, and Charisma; if the limb is a leg, the victim's movement is slowed by half. The swelling and penalties persist until the disease is cured. 3. The victim's eyes and eyelids become swollen, causing blindness. A cure blindness spell temporally restores sight (ld4 days), but the condition persists until cured. 4. The victim's Strength and Constitution drop by five points and the victim falls into a coma for 2d12 hours. If either ability score drops to zero or less the victim dies. The bouts of coma recur every 1d4 + 1 months for the rest of the victim's life or until cured.

*Habitat/Society*: Culex mosquitoes most often dwell in urban areas, where the supply of human and demi-human blood is abundant. 

Female giant mosquitoes lay eggs every time they drain their fill of blood-10-30 eggs per clutch. A single female giant mosquito can lay as many as 300 eggs in her lifetime. About two-thirds of the eggs hatch and become wrigglers. Adult males live about one month, females live two or three months.
Giant mosquitoes travel in swarms of assorted individuals of the same species. To randomly determine the size of a swarm, roll once for males and once for females according to the entry in the Number Appearing entry. The swarms lair in hollow trees, caves, or abandoned buildings. If the temperature drops below freezing, most giant mosquitoes die, but some hibernate, especially wrigglers, who bury themselves underwater.

*Ecology*: Adult mosquitoes eat only blood. In addition to nourishment, females need large quantities of blood to stimulate their ovaries to produce eggs. Many insectivorous animals prey on giant mosquitoes, including giant bats, frogs, toads, and dragonflies; giant mosquitoes are too stupid to fear these creatures.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Heh, back to the males for a sec: should we let them advance?  I could go 7-10 HD (Medium), 11-15 HD (Large) if you want.

For the females: A little stronger than the males, a little more Con?  Attach and blood drain seem like givens.  No claw attacks?


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews  based on those suggestions.

AC translates to 17.  Rather than boosting the natural armor by 3 over the male (which seems odd), shall we boost the Dex a bit?

Shall we make the disease a standard ability for it?   Do we want custom diseases or state that they can carry any injury disease?


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

Let's increase Dex by +4 but then drop Str back to 12 to "compensate" a little.  Then +1 natural armor, maybe.

I like disease as standard for these, as they're giant mosquitos.  The only appropriate injury diseases in the SRD are filth fever and red ache.  My thought is to go with filth fever since the lower DC imitates the fact that people don't really get sick from mosquitos too much in urban environments.  We could do red ache (more likely to contract a disease) for the anopheles, if you like.  We could also put in a sidebar that mosquitos in cold areas don't usually carry disease (not sure if that's worth reducing the CR or not).


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 4?  (the equal HD stag beetle is CR 4)

Advancement: 8-14 HD (Large); 15-21 HD (Huge)?

A female culex giant mosquito is 9 feet long and weighs x to x pounds.


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Umm, 20-25 lb?  CR and advancement seem fine.

Flies off after doing 8 points of Con damage?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

1d4 points of Constitution damage like the stirge and anguillian?


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## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Sounds good to me.  With those changes, is the culex female done?


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## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

I think so.   Updated.

Here are the relevant differences with the anopheles...

Culex

NO. APPEARING: 2-20
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 24(B)
HIT DICE: 7
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SIZE: L (9' long)

Anopheles

NO. APPEARING: 2-16
MOVEMENT: 6, Fl 18(B)
HIT DICE: 8
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-12
SIZE: L (12' long)


Anopheles mosquitoes have brown thoraxes and black bands on their abdomens. Their legs and proboscises are longer and more powerful than the culex's, and their wings are covered with heavy black scales.

When the mosquito has drained as many points of Strength as she has hit dice (seven points for a culex, eight for an anopheles), she detaches herself and flies away to lay eggs.

Habitat/Society: Anopheles mosquitoes prefer animal blood, and usually are found in the wilderness.


----------



## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Ok, 1 more HD, slightly different flight and organization.  Bite I guess should be bumped up a damage die.  I'd like to swap red ache in for the disease on this one.  Should we also tweak the stats (if we increased Str, we might not want to change the bite damage)?


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Rather than increase the damage die, I increased Str a tad.

Wanna increase natural armor by 1 to account for the heavy, scaled wings?

A female anopheles giant mosquito is 12 feet long and weighs x to x pounds.

Anything else?


----------



## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

Are we using 1d8+1/2 Str for bite damage?  Seems a little low, but I guess I can see the reasoning for a mosquito.

I'm ambivalent on the natural armor, so we'll do what you want. 

Umm, 35-50 lb?


----------



## Shade (Sep 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> Are we using 1d8+1/2 Str for bite damage?  Seems a little low, but I guess I can see the reasoning for a mosquito.




I screwed up.  

Updated.  All done?


----------



## freyar (Sep 17, 2008)

I think it looks good!


----------



## Shade (Sep 18, 2008)

*Locust, Giant*
Armor Class: 4
Hit Dice: 2** (S)
Move: 60' (20')
Flying: 180' (60')
Attacks: 1 bite or 1 bump or 1 spit
Damage: 1d2 or 1d4 or see below
No. Appearing: 2d10 (0)
Save As: F2
Morale: 5
Treasure Type: Nil
Intelligence: 0
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 30

Monster Type: Lowlife (Common).

Giant locusts are 2'-3' long and live underground.  They may be mistaken for statues (or might not be noticed at all) until approached, because of their stone-gray color. They are herbivores, and also eat fungus such as yellow mold and shriekers. They cannot be harmed by yellow mold or most poisons.

Instead of fighting, they usually flee by jumping away (up to 60'). Unfortunately they often become confused, and may accidentally jump into a party (50% chance per jump). If so, a victim is determined randomly and an attack roll is made. If the giant locust hits a character, the victim is battered for 1d4 points of damage. The locust then flies away.

When frightened or attacked, giant locusts make a loud shrieking noise to warn their fellows.  In dungeons, this shriek has a 20% chance per round of attracting wandering monsters.

If cornered, a giant locust will spit a brown gooey substance up to 10'. The target is treated as AC 9 regardless of his true armor class. A victim hit by giant locust spittle must make a saving throw vs. poison or be unable to do anything for 1 turn, due to the awful smell. After this time the victim will be used to the smell, but any character approaching within 5' must also make a saving throw or suffer the same effects. This aroma will last until the spittle is washed off.

Terrain: Cavern.

Originally appeared in Rules Cyclopedia (1991).


----------



## freyar (Sep 19, 2008)

Any ideas of where to look for comparable abilities?  Maybe a giant grasshopper somewhere?

Sounds like a weak bite and a slam attack, along with some tactics discussion.
Shriek is maybe like the shrieker fungus ability.
Spit is interesting.  Sickened for a while or nauseated for shorter?


----------



## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

freyar said:


> Any ideas of where to look for comparable abilities?  Maybe a giant grasshopper somewhere?




I don't believe so.  In fact, that's why I wanted to convert this one...I saw an enormous grasshopper on my house last night.  

Also, locusts are essentially grasshoppers, according to Wikipedia:
Locust - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Grasshopper - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Compare to the cave cricket in Tome of Horrors...

Str 14, Dex 10, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7

Grasshoppers seem stronger and maybe a bit hardier than crickets, so maybe...

Str 17, Dex 10, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 7?


----------



## freyar (Sep 21, 2008)

Sounds about right.  We might also want to modify the following for the shriek:

According to the flavor, the cave cricket chirp can be heard to 300 ft.
Chirp (Ex): Creatures within 20 feet of a chirping cave cricket cannot be heard unless they scream. Spellcasters in the area must succeed on a DC 12 Concentration check to successfully cast a spell. The chirping increases the chance of wandering monsters by
30%. The check DC is Constitution-based and includes a +1 racial bonus.


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Hmmm...the more I look at these, it becomes apparent that these are more like cave crickets that actual grasshoppers.  I mean, they live underground, not in the freakin' grass!   

Let's convert these as written, then do a true giant grasshopper.

Perhaps we should rename these to "Giant Cave Locusts"?

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Sep 23, 2008)

I think they were called cave locusts in the original version of the D&D Basic Set, so why not?


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I think they were called cave locusts in the original version of the D&D Basic Set, so why not?




Ooh!  Perfect.


----------



## Echohawk (Sep 25, 2008)

I've just noticed that the Creature Catalog already has a cave locust!


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Echohawk said:


> I've just noticed that the Creature Catalog already has a cave locust!



Hmmm, does look like basically the same thing.  Doesn't even seem to need a 3.5 update...


----------



## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Good deal!  We can scratch that one off the list.


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

I'd like to still proceed with a giant grasshopper "conversion".  The game badly needs one, IMHO.  

I'd rather start with Medium or Large, as I think they would make interesting mounts for insectile humanoids.

A giant praying mantis is Large, has 4 HD, and the following scores:  Str 19, Dex 8, Con 15, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 11.

If we went Large for the giant grasshopper as well, I'd suggest 3 HD, slightly less Str, greater Dex, and probably Wis 10 (closer to a beetle).

I'm thinking flight should be limited to being able to take off and land in the same round.

Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Sounds reasonable.  Maybe Str 17, Dex 12, Con 5, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 11?  Instead of flight, maybe a leap/racial bonus to Jump?


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm torn on what to do with the leap ability.  On the one hand, we could give it the "Jump" special ability of the cave locust.  We could simply give it a high racial bonus on Jump checks, but that won't really cover what a real-world grasshopper can do.  When I mowed my lawn last weekend, I was watching them fly easily 20 times their length in under six seconds.  That would seem to suggest a high fly speed, but would require take off and landing in the same round.  I'm fairly confident I've seen such an ability used before, but where currently escapes me. 

Regardless of what we choose, I definitely think it deserves better than a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks, since hunting spiders get a bonus that high.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

The Jump ability would probably work fine.  But if you can come up with the short flight, that works for me, too!  I agree that they should have much better than a spider.


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

How about this...

A giant grasshopper has a +20 racial bonus on Jump checks.  A giant grasshopper treats all Jump checks as if it had a 20-foot running start.

Leap (Ex): A giant grasshopper can jump 30 feet (horizontally or vertically) as a move action.  If the grasshopper makes a slam attack at the end of the jump, it is treated as a charge attack.

Limited Flight (Ex):  A grasshopper may fly at a speed of 60 feet (average), but must begin and end its flight in the same round.


----------



## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Umm, all three of those?  I'd go with any 2, I guess (all 3 seems a little redundant).  Or somehow combine the first two (maybe +20 Jump bonus but no running start combined with Leap as you have it written) and also Limited Flight.


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Sorry...I meant those as options, not all of 'em.  

I think I've got something better yet.  

Great Leaper (Ex):  A giant grasshopper has a +30 racial bonus on Jump checks. A giant grasshopper treats all Jump checks as if it had a 20-foot running start.  For purposes of determining distance, a giant grasshopper treats vertical leaps as if they were horizontal leaps.  Thus, a giant grasshopper with a Jump check result of 40 can leap 40 feet vertically or horizontally.

I noticed the thri-kreen has a +30 bonus, so I figured we could go that high for these critters.

Let's also boost the base speed to 30 feet to avoid the -6 speed penalty on Jump checks.

I'd still like to include limited flight.


----------



## freyar (Sep 27, 2008)

Great Leaper and Limited Flight both sound good, though I don't know if the flight is somewhat redundant with the great leaping.


----------



## Melatuis (Sep 28, 2008)

I like both great leaper and limited fly.  Can it combine both in the same round to cover 90 ft. when it is trying escape? of course it is clumies (sic).

Does it have to wait a round to fly again if does cover 90 ft.?


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2008)

Melatuis said:


> I like both great leaper and limited fly.  Can it combine both in the same round to cover 90 ft. when it is trying escape? of course it is clumies (sic).
> 
> Does it have to wait a round to fly again if does cover 90 ft.?




Good question.  Perhaps as a full-round action it can combine both?


----------



## freyar (Sep 30, 2008)

Shade said:


> Good question.  Perhaps as a full-round action it can combine both?



Sounds fair.  CR 2?  Advancement: 4-10 HD (Large), 11-17 HD (Huge), 18-20 HD (Gargantuan)?


----------



## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Updated.

A giant grasshopper is generally 8 feet long, stands 5 feet high at the shoulder, and weighs 800 pounds?


----------



## freyar (Sep 30, 2008)

Sounds good, and I think it's done then.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

Since Thanksgiving is fast approaching here in the US...

*Wild turkey:* Another common element of the chameleon-men's diet; AC 9, HD ½ (S), MV 120' (40'), AT 1 beak, D 1-2, NA 0 (2-12), Save F1, ML 6, TT Nil, Int 2, AL N, XP 5.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #186 (1992).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey_(bird)


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

Small Animal, 1 HD, low Wisdom score?


----------



## freyar (Nov 11, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Small Animal, 1 HD, low Wisdom score?



These seem somewhere between Tiny and Small, so Small is ok.  Is there another turkey coming sometime?  Maybe that one could be Tiny. 

Let's go with 1/2 HD.  And Ben Franklin says that turkeys are wise -- isn't that why he wanted turkeys to be the national bird of the US?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 11, 2008)

Ok, it's a wild turkey, so I'm fine with a decent wisdom score.

Domesticated turkeys, though, are too stupid not to know to look up with their mouths open when it rains.


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

Ok, then, how about Str 3, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 11?


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2008)

Sounds good.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The name given to a group of Turkeys is a rafter, although they are sometimes incorrectly referred to as a gobble or flock.




That will help with the organization line.  



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> While the large domestic turkey is generally unable to fly, the smaller wild turkey can fly extremely well. This is usually enough to perch in the branches of trees, however, it is an ineffective method of transportation.






			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Wild Turkeys are carnivores, foraging on the ground or climbing people and small babys to feed. They prefer eating hard mast such as mussels and beets of various gardens, including hazel, chestnut, hickory, and pinyon pine as well as various seeds, berries such as juniper and bearberry, roots and insects. Turkeys are also known to occasionally consume small vertebrates like snakes, frogs or salamanders. Poults have been observed eating insects, berries, and seeds. Wild turkeys often feed in cow pastures. They sometimes visit backyard bird feeders to search for seed on the ground. Turkeys are also known to eat a wide variety of grasses. Moreover, around 80% of a turkey's diet is made up of grass.




Carnivorous, eh?   Bring on the dire turkey?


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2008)

1d2 or 1d4 for the beak?

I got to get a dire tofurkey for dinner!


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2008)

Spot 2, Listen 2, Alertness?  CR 1/4? (It's not as deadly as a cat, but it can fly.)  Any forests? Or maybe temperate forests?  Advancement: 2-4 HD (Small)?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 22, 2008)

Cold or temperate forests.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2008)

Sounds good.

Rafter is 2-24?

3 ft long and 10-25 lb? 

Need anything else?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 24, 2008)

Actually, I recall reading that wild turkeys use their claws for defense more than beak. And they're also rather nasty. We might want to switch its natural attack around.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2008)

Maybe Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat and 2 claws at 1d4 base damage with the beak secondary?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 24, 2008)

freyar said:


> Maybe Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat and 2 claws at 1d4 base damage with the beak secondary?




That would turn the turkey into a pretty mean beastie. I like it. We'd probably want to boost the CR up a fraction--now it's as bad as a house cat!


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

SOunds good.  Updated.

Wanna do a dire turkey?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2008)

Of course!


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

Since an eagle is also a Small bird, use the dire eagle as insipiration and go size Large?

Dire eagle has 5 HD and Str 20, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6.


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2008)

Want to apply the dire template?  (Or the 3.5e ToH version?)  That'll approximate what happens in the MM anyway.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2008)

I think the dire turkey should get pounce. But yeah, starting by modding a dire eagle seems like a good first step.


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2008)

Hmmm...the dire template will fall a bit short on the target HD.  We might be able to use it for other inspiration, though.

OK, comparing our turkey with an eagle...

Turkey: Str 3, Dex 11, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 11
Eagle: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6

Now looking at dire eagle...

Str 20, Dex 19, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6

So maybe...

Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 11?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2008)

I think dire turkeys should be stronger than 13.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

Seems a bit weak for something Large.  Go Str 17 but maybe decrease Dex a little to compensate?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2008)

Agreed.


----------



## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

Str 17, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 11?


----------



## Shade (Nov 26, 2008)

Sounds good.  Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

Might as well drop Weapon Finesse now.  Does this qualify for Multiattack (3 natural attacks, but not 3 distinct ones)?  Or want to give it Multiattack as a bonus?

Should we bump natural armor a little?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2008)

Monsters don't need three distinct natural attacks for Multiattack.

A boost to natural armor strikes me as sensible.


----------



## freyar (Nov 26, 2008)

I'd say a total of either +3 or +4 natural armor, aiming for around CR 3.  Sound about right?

Maybe let's go Multiattack as a normal feat.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 26, 2008)

Sounds fair to me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 26, 2008)

Updated.

Thoughts on size?   A dire eagle stands up to 12 feet tall with a wingspan of up to 20 feet. A fully grown dire eagle weights up to 650 pounds.


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2008)

7-8 feet long, 700 lb?  Since it's a turkey, I might not worry about wingspan.


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2008)

Updated


----------



## freyar (Nov 27, 2008)

I'd say it's done!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 27, 2008)

Agreed.


----------



## Don Ventresca (Dec 4, 2008)

This is really off topic, but is homebrews locked or not?


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Don Ventresca said:


> This is really off topic, but is homebrews locked or not?




Hello!   The Homebrews forum as a whole is unlocked, but the threads that house the work-in-progress/completed conversions is locked to avoid clutter while we work on the creatures over here in General Monster Talk.


----------



## Don Ventresca (Dec 8, 2008)

Oh, OK, thanks!


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

*GIRAFFE*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 10-40
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 18&#148;
HIT DICE: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 hooves
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-8

The tallest mammals, giraffes roam the fringe areas between tropical grasslands and forests. They deliver a vicious kick with their heavy hooves either to the front or the rear, though not both at once.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Giraffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Upsize a horse to Huge for stats?  Or go somewhere in between?  Those kicks are quite strong.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

If rhinos are large, and they are, giraffes should also be Large.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> If rhinos are large, and they are, giraffes should also be Large.



Fair enough, by mass at least.  But they sure look a lot bigger.


----------



## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

freyar said:


> Fair enough, by mass at least.  But they sure look a lot bigger.




In other words, greater reach (unfortunately, they kick rather than bite).


----------



## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Yeah, I guess the kick can't reach more than 10 ft.


----------



## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

For ability scores, how about we split the difference between a heavy horse and a rhino (but retain the Dex)?

Horse: Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Rhino: Str 26, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 2

So...

Str 21, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 4?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Bring Con down to 17 and I think that looks good.


----------



## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Dec 11, 2008)

Looking good!  Can we give the hoof Str and a half?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Sure.  Updated.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Giraffes also have slightly elongated forelegs, about 10% longer than their hind legs. The pace of the giraffe is an amble, though when pursued it can run extremely fast, up to 55 km/h. It can not sustain a lengthy chase.




Something like sprint?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> As noted above, males often engage in necking, which has been described as having various functions. One of these is combat. Battles can be fatal, but are more often less severe. The longer the neck, and the heavier the head at the end of the neck, the greater the force a giraffe is able to deliver in a blow.






			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> After a necking duel, a giraffe can land a powerful blow with his head — occasionally knocking a male opponent to the ground. These fights rarely last more than a few minutes or end in physical harm.




Slam attack with head?   This could be where the reach comes in.  



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> has been speculated that their characteristic spotted pattern provides a certain degree of camouflage.




Racial bonus in certain terrain?


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Sprint sounds good.

The slam attack with the head should probably only be useful against Large or larger, though.

Maybe a +4 Hide bonus in grasslands?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

Sprint, except it only lasts 5 rounds. +4 bonus in forested areas. Giraffes prefer the scrubby woodlands that dot savannas, for obvious reasons.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Yeah, I was trying to think about how to explain that.  Could we say Hide bonus in lightly-forested areas?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 12, 2008)

We should allow it to include all forests, then explain in their flavor text that they prefer the scrubby kind.


----------



## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Fair enough.


----------



## Echohawk (Dec 13, 2008)

Shade said:


> Slam attack with head?   This could be where the reach comes in.



I'm afraid I'm not convinced that a head slam attack makes sense for a giraffe. They do use their heads/necks in combat, but only when fighting other giraffes. When faced with any other hostile animal, a giraffe will either run away (most likely) or kick.

Also, the giraffes we have around here seem to actively steer clear of anything more than quite sparse woodland. I think that they find it hard to move around in foliage that is too dense, and it also make it tricky for them to see approaching predators. They mostly inhabit open grasslands or savannas, moving from one sparse patch of trees (usually our indigenous thorny acacias) to another to graze. So I don't think their terrain should include "forests".


----------



## Shade (Dec 17, 2008)

So, temperate or warm plains?  +4 Hide bonus in areas with sparse trees?


----------



## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

Shade said:


> So, temperate or warm plains?  +4 Hide bonus in areas with sparse trees?



Sounds right.  And no slam, I guess.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: Hide +x*, 8 ranks
Listen and Spot?

Feats: 2
Alertness, Endurance?

Challenge Rating: 3?

Advancement: x


----------



## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Split the ranks between Hide and Spot?

Feats, CR look good.  Advancement: 6-10 HD (Large)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Spot and Hide is a good suggestion.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Yup, looks done.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

If it has two hoof attacks, it should be doing +Str with them, not +Str x 1.5. Reduce damage from 1d8+7 to 1d8+5 and we're good.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

The extra Str damage is from the powerful kick ability, freyar requested, due to giraffes being "able to crush the skull" of a lion.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

I must have glossed over its special abilities. Sorry 'bout that.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

No problem.  Are you OK with that ability?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Oh, totally. I think we're done then.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

*Okapi*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 20&#148;
HIT DICE: 4
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 hooves
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6

A relative of the giraffe, the okapi is found only in the depths of tropical rainforests. The okapi is very shy and rarely seen. Foes are savagely kicked, although the okapi can outrun most predators.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Okapi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 19, 2008)

Racial bonus to Hide checks seems reasonable, as does a bonus to Listen checks.


----------



## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

I'd agree with that.  Also probably not the powerful kick.


----------



## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Agreed to dropping powerful kick.


----------



## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

The same Hide bonus looks ok to me.  +2 racial bonus to Listen per demiurge's suggestion above, or +4?

Listen 3, Spot 4?  Alertness seems like an appropriate feat here.  Maybe also Run?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Run would work, as would Endurance. Should we give it some sort of ability to increase its ability to move through heavy foliage? Something like:

Forest Movement (Ex): An okapi's skill at moving through heavy foliage is such that it suffers no movement penalties from light undergrowth and treats heavy undergrowth as light undergrowth. An okapi is still affected by magically enhanced plants that slow movement, such as an entangle spell.


----------



## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

I like it!   Updated.

Environment: Warm forests?

Organization: Solitary or pair?

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

All of those sound good.


----------



## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.  Another one done?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

Maybe reduce hoof damage to 1d6, but other than that, looks like it to me. Shall we wait for freyar's opinion?


----------



## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Absolutely.  I'm also never opposed to going back to finished conversions if new insights are offered.


----------



## freyar (Dec 24, 2008)

Hey, it looks good to me!


----------



## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

*Tapir*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: 15"//6"
HIT DICE: 3
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6

The tapir is normally one of the most peaceful of animals and is ill-equipped for combat; its hooves are soft and its teeth are dull. However, if cornered, a tapir will take a bite out of its attacker with its wide mouth, doing damage if it gets a solid bite.

The tapir swims well and can stay underwater for several minutes. It lives only in tropical forests along rivers.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

Tapir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Shade (Dec 26, 2008)

With the same size and Hit Dice, it looks like we can just customize a boar, replacing gore with bite, adding a swim speed, dropping ferocity (and possibly adding hold breath), and changing feats and skills.


----------



## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

Sounds right.  Hold Breath seems appropriate, too.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

Reduce bite damage, and add stamp attacks. Swim speed isn't needed, but a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks would be good. Agreed to hold breath.


----------



## freyar (Dec 27, 2008)

1d6 bite damage from the original monster, 1d4 for stamps?  

I could personally go either way on swim, but I think we should probably go with a swim speed out of deference to the original design.  

Skills (Spot and Listen) from the boar seem right.  Let's switch Toughness to maybe Endurance.  Alertness seems good.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 27, 2008)

Actually, the "hooves are soft, teeth are dull" suggests that we should make all attacks secondary, like some pack animals.


----------



## freyar (Dec 28, 2008)

Sure!  These should be pretty non-aggressive.


----------



## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

CR 1?  (They seem comparable to a light horse)


----------



## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

CR 1 looks about right.


----------



## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

Agreed, and then they look pretty much done.


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

*MUSK-OX*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 11-20
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 4
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 horns, or 1 charge
w i t h t r a m p l e
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5/2-5, or 2-16 and 1-4/1 -4

These oxlike animals roam the arctic tundras and forests. For more information, see the "musk ox" listing in the article "Into the Age of Mammals," in this issue.

*Musk-Ox*
These oxlike animals with short curved horns are famous for their phalanx defense. When threatened, the adults gather in a shoulder circle facing outward, with the young in the center. If an enemy comes too close (usually 15' or so), 2-5 adults charge the interloper and trample it. There were several species of muskoxen in the Pleistocene, some larger than others (up to 4 + 5 HD). They generally stood 4½' high at the shoulder. Game statistics on musk-oxen are found in the article "What's for Lunch?" in this issue.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musk-ox


----------



## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Start with a bison and drop 1 HD?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Sounds reasonable to me. Give it a bonus to saves vs. cold environments. Maybe trample vs stampede.


----------



## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Definitely trample.  

What natural weapons do we want to do?  Gore and slam?  Slam and 2 hoofs?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Gore and two hooves.


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

With secondary attacks, those damage bonuses should be +6 and +3 for gore and hooves respectively.


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> With secondary attacks, those damage bonuses should be +6 and +3 for gore and hooves respectively.




Do they need to be secondary attacks, though?  They seem just as mean as bison.

Wanna use this?

Arctic Adaptation (Ex): A musk-ox does not need to make Fortitude saves to avoid taking nonlethal damage in conditions between 40 degrees and -20 degrees. In conditions of extreme cold (below -20 degrees) it must make Fortitude saves like any other creature, but gains a +4 racial bonus on this save.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Well, I'd rather make the hooves secondary attacks if we give them hooves at all. I'd be just as content to give it gore only. 

Arctic adaptation looks perfect!


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Oh, I see it now.  I gave the primary Str and 1/2.  Duh.

I'm cool with ditching the hooves, too, unless someone strongly wants them.

Trample 1d8+9?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

I'm alright with the hooves, so long as they get a +3 Str bonus. I wasn't suggesting that all of their natural attacks be secondary, but I can see how that impression came across. Trample 1d8+9 looks right.


----------



## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

> Muskoxen have a distinctive defensive behavior: when the herd is threatened, the bulls and cows will face outward to form a stationary ring around the calves. This is an effective defense against predators such as wolves, but makes them an easy target for human hunters.




Wanna do something mechanically with this?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Defensive stance is a possibility, but I think it works fine as flavor. Overruning is hard enough in D&D that the wolves wouldn't be able to reach a calf surrounded by a ring of angry oxen.


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

These look pretty good!  I'm abivalent on something like defensive stance, as these probably break off to trample from time to time, too.

These are still probably CR 2, though perhaps a little weaker than bison.  Advancement is fine.


----------



## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Looks good!


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 7, 2009)

Looks good to me.


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

*Antelope* 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical and temperate plains 
FREQUENCY: Common 
ORGANIZATION: Herd 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day 
DIET: Herbivore 
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1) 
TREASURE: Nil 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral 
NO. APPEARING: 4-24 (4d6) 
ARMOR CLASS: 7 
MOVEMENT: 24 
HIT DICE: 2 
THAC0: 19 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Stampede 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil  
SIZE: M (5' tall)
MORALE: Unreliable (3)
XP VALUE: 35 

Herd animals live in all climates and terrain, from freezing tundra (bactrian camel) to temperate hills (wild cattle) to tropical plains (antelope). Though normally passive, herd animals can be dangerous when angered or frightened.

Herd animals are four-legged hoofed mammals covered with hair -- short, coarse hair for antelope. Male antelope have sharp horns. 

Combat: Most herd animals attack by biting. Antelope generally flee from danger, but will attack if cornered or threatened. A male antelope defending his herd will charge, inflicting 1-4 hp of butting damage if charging from at least 40'. 

If frightened by intruders, there is a 25% that the entire herd will stampede. If a herd stampedes, roll 2d4 for each creature in the path of the stampede who does not take cover (such as by hiding in a tree or behind a rock pile or wall). This is the number of herd animals trampling the exposed creature. Trampling causes 1-4 hp of damage per herd animal trampling.

Habitat/Society: Herd animals graze on open terrain, migrating to a new territory when the food supply of the old has been depleted. Herd size varies from a family of four buffalo to a commercial flock of 1,000 sheep. The largest and oldest male usually serves as the leader, directing the movement his herd and watching for predators. Herd animals do not collect treasure.

Ecology: Herd animals eat grass, grains, and shrubbery. They are the favored prey of carnivores, including lions, tigers, and dragons. Man often domesticates herd animals for their meat, milk, fur (blankets and clothing), and skin (shoes and tents). Dried droppings of herd animals can be burned for fuel.

Originally appeared in Monster Manual  (1977).  (The version above is the Monstrous Manual version)


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

Alright. Gore is clearly the weapon of choice. Do we want to start by sizing down a bison to Medium? That would result in ability scores of:

Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4

We might want to boost Dex a bit, but that looks alright to me.


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Maybe also drop Str a touch.  Str 13, Dex 15?

Keep stampede, too.


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

How about Dex 17?  They're very agile animals.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

I'm okay with Dex 17.


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Give 'em sprint?

Racial bonus on Hide checks in grass?


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Yes and yes.  +4 for the Hide bonus?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

+2. They're not as stealthy as, say, a cat.


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> +2. They're not as stealthy as, say, a cat.



I'll buy that.


----------



## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Like many other herbivores, antelopes rely on keen senses to avoid predators. Their eyes are placed on the sides of their heads, giving them a broad radius of vision with minimal binocular vision. The fact that most species have their pupils elongated horizontally also helps in this respect. Acute senses of smell and hearing, give antelope the ability to perceive danger at night out in the open (when predators are often on the prowl).




+x racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Antelopes (like other herbivores) need to be able to react quickly in the presence of a predator—thus, they tend to be fast runners. They are agile and have good endurance - these are advantages when pursued by sprint-dependent predators like cheetah, which are the fastest of land animals but tire quickly.




They only get 1 feat, but this seems to suggest both Endurance and Run.  Make one a bonus feat?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Give them Alertness and Run as bonus feats, and Endurance as their actual feat.


----------



## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

That sounds right to me.


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Updated.

Do the skill bonuses look OK?

Suggested ranks?

Suggested multiplier for Sprint?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

In grass, the bonus should raise to +4, not +8. In addition, Stampede should do a die type less of damage (d10?) and affect Medium or smaller creatures. 

I'm not sure Sprint is needed. They don't do much charging--they're moving fastest when running away, which is covered by the Run feat.


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Sounds good.  Split ranks between Listen and Spot?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

Yes.


----------



## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Yes.

CR 1 due to stampede?

Advancement: -?

300-400 lb? tan to dark brown?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

Stampede requires a lot of them, and isn't all that good. I say CR 1/2.


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

I agree with most of that.  Not sure about the height/weight.

Are we going for a specific type of antelope, or is this intended to cover numerous varieties?   The oryx or gnu would seem to allow for advancement to Large, while a royal antelope would suggest Tiny size.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

We'll say that these antelope stats reflect a generic antelope, like a gazelle or an imapala. Gnu probably could use the bison stats.


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Sounds good.   How about 3-4 HD (Medium), 5 HD (Large) to allow for slightly swifter big ones?

Updated.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 12, 2009)

Sure!


----------



## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

With that, I believe it is finished.


----------



## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Agreed.  I think a royal antelope would require a different writeup.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

*Beaver*
HD: 1-4 hp
AC: 9
No. App.: 10-40
# Attacks: 1
Dmg/Attk: 1
Mv: 4, Sw 12
XP Value 7
CLIMATWERRAIN: various
FREQUENCY: Common
INTELLIGENCE: Animal (1)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
MORALE Unreliable to Average (2-9)

Most small mammals are harmless to humans. Some have useful traits or abilities. Most animals have only rudimentary languages that humanoids cannot use except with the aid of magical spells.

All have THACO 20, except where noted below.

Beavers quickly chew trees and construct homes in ponds.  Adult pelts are worth two 2 gp.

Originally appeared in Monstrous Compendium Volume Two (1989).


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

Small Animal, I guess.  Probably too big for Tiny.  1/2 HD plus decent Con, or 1HD and average Con?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

1 HD, average Con.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jan 13, 2009)

If we convert this, we should do the giant beaver as well.

Skills: Swim and Craft (dambuilding) are given, possibly Escape Artist as well.


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

Agreed to all the above!

Badgers might be the closest thing in the SRD (maybe?) with Str 8, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6.  How should we modify that?  We've already talked about making Con 10-11.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

I'm not sure that dambuilding would work best as a Craft skill (which are usually based off Intelligence), but I agree with the rest.

Since beavers are big rodents, they might also compare favorably to a dire rat:  Str 10, Dex 17, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4

So maybe Str 10, Dex 13, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6?


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2009)

That works!  Maybe we can give them a racial bonus to Craft (dam building).  Or something.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Beavers are strong for their size, but not too dexterous. I'd switch Str and Dex. They're also really, really canny critters, so much so that I'd argue they need a serious Wis boost.


----------



## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Str 13, Dex 10, Con 11, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

That looks good to me.


----------



## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Works for me, too.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

So, racial Swim speed, clearly. I like the huge bonus to Craft (dam-building). Perhaps some sort of racial bonus vs. cold, due to their heavy fur?


----------



## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

How about a +2 bonus from the fur?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Sure!


----------



## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Bite ignores first x points of hardness, or ignores hardness of wood only?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> They are able to remain submerged for up to 15 minutes.




Hold breath?



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> They have poor eyesight, but keen senses of hearing, smell, and touch.




Racial penalty on Spot checks, bonus on Listen checks, and scent?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Ignores hardness of wood, hold breath, no ranks in Spot, perhaps Skill Focus (listen) for the feat?


----------



## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Updated.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

The attack bonus should be +2 (+1 size, +1 Str)


----------



## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

+1 natural?  CR 1/2?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

How about +2 natural? Beaver pelts are pretty thick. CR 1/2 strikes me as fair.


----------



## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

It's a deal!


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Updated.

Any advancement?


----------



## freyar (Jan 15, 2009)

Sure.  Like the badger, advancement to 2HD (Small)?


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 15, 2009)

I think we're done.


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

*Beaver, Giant*
# AP: 4-40
AC: 6
MV: 6, Sw 12
HD: 4
THAC0: 17
#AT: 1
Dmg: 4d4
ML: Average
SA: Nil
XP: 120

These docile animals, of low to average Intelligence, are about 6 feet long when fully grown (size M). They normally flee any attack, but will fight fiercely if cornered or if their huge lodge is attacked. They live in a lake created by their vast dam, and in its center is their lodge, a veritable castle of mud and logs with walls not less than 5 feet thick. The entire community live in this single dwelling, and when the alarm is sounded (a tail slap in the water), all beavers rush to this place to defend it and the young. For every adult, there will be a young one. Giant beavers sometimes trade, and if coins or other valuables are offered, they can sometimes be persuaded to undertake the building of dam-like constructions if there is water near the building site for them to work from. They prize highly certain bark and tender twigs, notably birch, aspen, and willow.

Originally appeared in Supplement II: Blackmoor (1975).  This is the Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two version.

*BEAVER, Giant*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 10-40
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 6"//12"
HIT DICE: 4
Yo IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: I
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4- 16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (6' long)
PSlONlC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

These intelligent but docile creatures will flee any attack if at all possible, but if cornered, or if their huge lodge is threatened, they will fight fiercely.  Their habitat is a lake created by their vast dam, and in the middle of the body of water thus created, they build a veritable castle of mud and lags with walls not less than 5' thick. The entire community lives in this single dwelling, and if an alarm (tail slap on the water) is sounded, all beavers rush to this place to defend it and their young. For every adult beaver there will be a young one (roll percentile dice for size determination). Giant beavers sometimes trade, and if coins or other valuables are offered they can sometimes be persuaded to undertake the building of dam-like constructions if there is water near the building site, for they use such water to work in/from. They prize highly certain barks and tender twigs, notably birch, aspen, and willow. Their hides are worth from 500 to 2,000 gold pieces each. Giant beaver kits of under 8 hit points can be subdued, captured, and sold in the market for from 100 to 200 gold pieces per hit point.

This is the 1E Monster Manual version.

Giant Beaver - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jan 16, 2009)

You should have put up the stats from the 1e Monster Manual, too.

If we make them intelligent, like they were in 1e, then they would be magical beasts (a la the giant eagle and owl).


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Good suggestion.  I've added the MM version to the above post.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

I like intelligent, Magical Beast giant beavers. We could do a prehistorical "actual" giant beaver in the prehistoric creatures thread as well, though.


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

I like that idea, since one did exist.  So, "giant beaver" for the magical beast version (akin to giant eagles and owls), and "dire beaver" for the real, prehistoric one?


----------



## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Dire beaver, or Castoroides


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Let's just tackle 'em both in this thread.  It would seem to make sense to do the dire beaver/Castoroides first, then tranfer it to magical beast and higher mental stats for the giant beaver.  Any objections?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

None here, although we very well may want to change the skills and feats of the intelligent version as well. I'm seeing them as having Improved Sunder, for some reason...


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Sounds good.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The Giant Beaver (Castoroides ohioensis) was a huge species of rodent, with a length up to 2.5 m (8.2 ft) and an estimated weight of 60-100 kg (130-220 lbs); past estimates went up to 220 kg (485 lbs).




That puts it just barely as size Large on lenght, and below minimum on weight.   Start it at Medium or Large?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Let's go Large.


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Upsizing a beaver to Large (without punishing Dex) yields...

Str 25, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 6

Doable?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Definitely doable.


----------



## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2009)

Why not put the last 3 ranks in dam-building?

Endurance for the other feat?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 18, 2009)

Or Iron Will.


----------



## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Yeah, those dam skills and Iron Will.

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 20, 2009)

Tough CR 2?  Advancement 5-12 HD (Large)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

It's as much of a CR 2 as a bison is.


----------



## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Updated.

Does the flavor text look reasonable?  I based it off what I could find in Wikipedia.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

I think that's just fine.


----------



## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

Looks pretty much done to me.


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

Ready to move on to the giant beaver?

Suggested mental stats?

Giant eagle has Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Giant owl has Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, that gives us a lot to play with, doesn't it?

Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10? I don't see why sapient beavers shouldn't be a little wiser than their animalistic kin.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 22, 2009)

Well, that gives us a lot to play with, doesn't it?

Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10? I don't see why sapient beavers shouldn't be a little wiser than their animalistic kin.


----------



## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

Sounds good.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2009)

These going to be Large or Medium?  They're supposed to be about 6ft long.  If they're built like a horse, I guess I could see Large.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

Medium with Powerful Build or Large works for me. I'm not choosy.


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Let's go with Large.

Added to Homebrews.

We've got 14 skill ranks to spend.

Retain the dire beaver's feats?


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Jan 23, 2009)

How about putting some ranks in Escape Artist?

Treasure should be standard (they had treasure type C originally and the description says they can work if coins or other valuables are offered).


----------



## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

Those are both excellent ideas.

The giant eagle and owl both have ranks in Knowledge (nature), so that might be worthwhile here.

Sense Motive would be beneficial for them, since they occasionally are approached for dambuilding jobs.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

I mentioned earlier that I think they should get Improved Sunder--should we switch out two of their feats for Power Attack and Imp. Sunder, or give it to them as a bonus?


----------



## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

Let's swap the feats.  In particular, I don't think these need Iron Will any more (if one of the save feats, Lightning Reflexes would be the one to take).

4 ranks each in Escape Artist, Knowledge (nature), and Sense Motive, with 2 more for Craft (dambuilding)?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 24, 2009)

I'd rather it have more ranks in Craft than in Knowledge.


----------



## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

We could just switch the ranks around, then.  But they already get a huge racial bonus to Craft, so my thinking was they didn't need quite so many ranks.


----------



## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

Let's split the two leftover ranks between Sense Motive and Knowledge (nature), giving it two synergy bonuses.

Updated.

Giant beavers are over 6 feet long and weigh x pounds.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 27, 2009)

300 pounds? They're pretty dense.


----------



## freyar (Jan 27, 2009)

Looks pretty good!  Done?


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Updated.



> Giant beaver kits of under 8 hit points can be subdued, captured, and sold in the market for from 100 to 200 gold pieces per hit point.




Add a "training a giant beaver" section, similar to giant eagles and owls?


----------



## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Sure!  I think we can mostly copy it, changing eggs into young (pups?), maybe tweaking some numbers.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Seems fair.


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Updated.

I lowered the price a bit since they can't fly.   Still, these would make cool mounts for gnomes and other sylvan creatures.


----------



## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Do you think we should put in the light, medium, heavy load info?  Or does it just not need it because it's not flying?  Otherwise, it looks done.


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Good point.  Since we've noted them as mounts, I think it's worth including.


----------



## freyar (Jan 29, 2009)

light load: upto 798 lb.  medium load: 799-1599 lb.  heavy load: 1600-2400 lb.


----------



## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Great!  Updated.


----------



## freyar (Jan 30, 2009)

Next?


----------



## Echohawk (Mar 7, 2009)

I've just noticed that there is a minor error in the "skills" section of the giant beaver: "A *dire* beaver has a +8 racial bonus [...]" should be "A *giant* beaver has a +8 racial bonus [...]".


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Thanks.  I'll put that on my "to do" list.


----------



## Don Ventresca (Mar 13, 2009)

freyar said:


> Next?




 Panda? *Is smacked across the face*


----------



## Echohawk (Mar 13, 2009)

Strange as it may seem, there have never been stats published for a panda as a D&D monster (as far as I can tell).


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

We need a kung-fu variety.  

All joking aside, we could probably work one up rather quickly with slight modifications to the black bear stats.


----------



## Don Ventresca (Mar 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> We need a kung-fu variety.
> 
> All joking aside, we could probably work one up rather quickly with slight modifications to the black bear stats.






Oh crap... Sorry about that.

All you would probably have to do to make one would be change it's Environment replace swimming and replace it with a climb speed, and switch its DEX and STR stats....[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


----------



## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

How's this?

*Panda*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 10 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+3) and bite +1 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: – 
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +2*, Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Endurance, Run
Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4–5 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: – 

Skills: Pandas have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.

*In areas of snow and shade, a panda gains a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.


----------



## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Pretty good.  Are RL pandas good climbers? I wouldn't know.  Could also check the speed, I guess.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2009)

Yeah, I'd slow that panda down to 30 feet.


----------



## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

30 ft. sounds good.

Wikipedia implies they are good climbers, although I could see just giving a racial bonus on Climb checks rather than an actual climb speed if that seems more appropriate.


----------



## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

Climb speed is ok; it was just a matter of my ignorance.


----------



## Don Ventresca (Mar 19, 2009)

Looks good to me, except is China really all that cold?


----------



## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

Hmmm, there aren't many gradations in D&D climate.  Might be temperate, I'm not sure.  Are pandas mainly from the northern parts?


----------



## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Per Wikipedia:



> The Giant Panda lives in mountainous regions, such as Sichuan, Gansu and Shaanxi.






> The climate is highly variable. The Sichuan Basin (including Chengdu) in eastern half of the province experiences a subtropical monsoon climate with long, warm to hot, humid summers and short, cool to cold, dry and cloudy winters, with China's lowest sunshine totals. The western areas have a mountainous climate characterized by very cold winters and mild summers, with plentiful sunshine. The southern part of the province, including Panzhihua, has a sunny, subtropical climate with very mild winters and hot summers.






> The landscape in Gansu is very mountainous in the south and flat in the north. The mountains in the south are part of the Qilian mountain range. At 5,547 meters high, Qilian Shan Mountain is Gansu’s highest elevation. It is located at latitude 39°N and longitude 99°E.
> 
> Gansu has a generally semi-arid to arid, continental climate, with warm summers and very cold winters. Most of the precipitation is concentrated in the summer months.






> The northern part of Shaanxi is cold in the winter and very hot in summer with dry winter and spring. Its southern portion generally receives more rain. Annual mean temperature is roughly between 9°C and 16°C with January temperature ranging from −11°C to 3.5°C and July temperature ranging from 21°C to 28°C.






> Although scientists do not know why these unusual bears are black and white, some speculate that the bold coloring provides effective camouflage into *its shade-dappled snowy and rocky surroundings*. The Giant Panda's thick, wooly coat keeps it warm in *the cool forests of its habitat*.




Should it be Temperate and cold forests and mountains?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

Works for me!


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

So... done? 

You hear about the Chinese guy who climbed into a panda cage last year at a zoo and got mauled?  He told the newspapers (from the hospital) that it just looked so cute he had to hug it.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Wow...just wow.   I'm tempted to add a "huggable" compulsion power.  

I'll get another started soon, once some of these other conversions wrap up.


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Wow...just wow.   I'm tempted to add a "huggable" compulsion power.
> 
> I'll get another started soon, once some of these other conversions wrap up.



Hmm, the panda automatically wins a grapple?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

We should save huggable for the April Fool's conversions. Hm... panda of ill omen?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Awesome!


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

It can go right along with the kung-fu!


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## Don Ventresca (Mar 22, 2009)

What sort of sick twisted monster have I suggested...!?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2009)

Is this different enough from the boar to warrant a conversion?

*Boar, Warthog*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (2' at shoulder)
PSlONlC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

These creatures are typically pig-like omnivores. Only the warthog has a
range restricted to warmer climes.

Warthog: These tropical beasts are aggressive only if their territory is
threatened or if cornered or threatened. They make two slashing attacks
with their large tusks. Male and female fight equally. If 3-6 are
encountered the balance will be young (1-2 hit dice, 1-3/2-5 hit points
damage/attack). The warthog will continue to fight for 1-2 melee rounds
after reaching 0 to -5 hit points but at -6 or greater damage dies
immediately.

Originally appeared in Monster Manual (1977).

*Warthog:* The warthog is so aggressive, it continues to attack until it reduced to -7 hit points.
Warthog 1-6 7 12 3 17 2 2-8/1-8 Average (8-10) 120 

Source:  Monstrous Manual


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2009)

I don't think so.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2009)

Maybe if we gave it an additional tusk or alacrity?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 8, 2009)

Alacrity is flagrantly supernatural, though.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2009)

Eh, we didn't do an Ex version?  Ok, fair enough.  Probably no need for the extra warthog.


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## Shade (May 5, 2009)

We're long overdue for some vermin.

This begins a series of worms from Dragon #133...

In the course of world affairs, worms get short shrift. Generally ignored (if referred to at all), worms are described in the most derogatory terms. Bartlett’s Familiar Quotations lists at least 50 references to worms, not a single one of them complimentary. Worms are at best humble; at worst, vile.

This anti-worm bias extends even into the world of the AD&D® game. If a dungeon adventurer turns to his comrade and spouts, .Ygrane, ye have the soul of a veritable worm!. He’s probably not extending a warm compliment. Even the dreaded purple worm is an unhappy sort of creature . a mere earthworm writ large, with a sting arbitrarily stuck on its tail. Aside from the medieval description of dragons as “great worms” or “wyrms," worms just don’t get no respect!

All worms are not alike, however, and there’s no reason giant worms should be, either. Described herein is a set of creatures that the enterprising DM can use to keep even the most jaded characters on their toes. All of these creatures are bristle worms (or polychaetes, if you prefer good medieval Latin) that live in the sea, a habitat which is rather neglected in published monster texts. For game purposes, the DM may adapt these giant worms to underground habitats as desired.

All bristle worms are segmented (much like earthworms) and have bristles on some part of their bodies. In addition, however, they may have elaborate tentacles, well-developed eyes, or hard, sharp jaws. Some are colored shimmering iridescent green or brilliant blood red. Several types have perfected the use of toxins.

These exotic creatures can be brought into your campaign in a variety of ways. As DM, you may simply declare that the seas are inhabited by giant bristle worms, just as purple worms are found wandering in caves. This is fantasy, after all, and giant man-eating polychaetes are no less likely than the man-eating giant gar featured in the Monster Manual. For those who are sticklers for accuracy, the alternatives are to shrink the player characters or enlarge the worms. The spells involved may not need to be particularly powerful. The largest specimen of Eunice (q.v.) on record is almost 20’ long and 2’ in diameter. Enlarging such a creature or shrinking the characters by a factor of from three to five would definitely get people’s attention.

Giant bristle worms are likely to be encountered guarding the undersea entrances to castles staffed by magicians powerful enough to sustain a permanent enlargement spell. The DM may also wish to establish a cult of island inhabitants who guard their realm by the same means. The enlargement spell might be focused through an icon, and may require annual replenishment through a sacrifice of crushed pearls mixed with elven hair (preferably that of some stray adventurer). Otherwise, giant bristle worms are rare in inhabited areas, having been killed off by the local fishermen. (Titans and various demi-gods use them for bait!) They are most likely encountered on deserted beaches or lonely stretches of ocean far from civilization.

*Bristle worms (polychaetes)*
The bristle worms considered here share characteristics which can be dealt with collectively. First, all of them live in the sea and are largely confined to salt water (although some of them can stand several hours exposure to air). 

Second, all of them have two sexes, unlike earthworms. Consequently, the mad mage who would establish a breeding population in his coastal moat has to bring back more than one giant worm. And how does said mage tell what sex of worm he has? Easily: By waiting until the breeding season, cutting open one segment from the middle region of the worm, and seeing what sort of reproductive organs are inside (perhaps a good job for the local druid).  

Third, all of these worms are capable of regenerating lost hit points if they retain at least 50% of their original hit points (in the real world, regeneration takes several weeks; for AD&D game purposes, however, it is far more rapid). One-half of the lost hit points will be recovered the first night, and 1d6 hp are recovered per day thereafter. As a result, the DM might rule that a 32-hp Diopatra (q.v.) which takes 15 hp damage in one round suddenly flees combat, withdrawing deep into its dwelling tube to emerge the next morning (to the surprise of the characters) at nearly full power.

If a sword of sharpness or vorpal weapon neatly cuts a worm into two parts, both parts flee (each having half the hit points the worm formerly did, counting the damage it took from previous attacks and from the attack that cut it in two). They each then regenerate into two separate worms, but each new worm recovers only one-half the total hit points the original worm possessed after one night, and no new hit points are gained thereafter. Thus, a 40-hp worm might be cut into two parts after taking other damage as well; each half is assumed here to have 12 hp. Each half regenerates after one night into a new, smaller worm with 32 hp. If either new worm is wounded, the usual rules for regeneration are followed.

Finally, those worms that live in tubes or burrows have a giant nerve cell which runs the length of their bodies. This cell triggers the escape response, enabling the worm to withdraw in a flash at the first hint of danger. In general, worms are alarmed by looming shapes that are larger than they are.

There are literally thousands of different kinds of bristle worms. Representatives from a number of different habitats are described in the following section.

*NEREIS*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-12
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVE: //9. (3.)
HIT DICE: 1-4
% IN LAIR: 95%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4 or 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Withdraw into lair
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (1-2’ diameter; 5-10’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The Nereis constructs mucous tubes in debris or loose sand and mud, from which it moves to capture prey. If threatened, the Nereis attempts to withdraw deep into its tube, becoming impossible to hit; otherwise, it attempts to swim away. The Nereis only fights if cornered, using its pair of jaws to do 1-4 hp damage for 1-2 HD worms and 1-6 hp damage for 3-4 HD worms. This worm prefers plant material for food, but it does attack animals small enough to swallow in one gulp (1’ or less in size). It avoids attacking adventurers unless disturbed. The Nereis also eats carrion, if available.

The bristles on the Nereis are primarily used to gain purchase while the worm is moving. These bristles may cause minor damage to an attacker, however, doing 1-2 hp damage to anyone who touches the worm. The Nereis is among the most widespread of the bristle worms, and is found on muddy or sandy bottoms from deep water into estuaries, and also lurking about the bases of giant kelp.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #133 (1988).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nereis


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## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2009)

Awesome! I approve of this conversion project.


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## freyar (May 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Awesome! I approve of this conversion project.



Same here!

I especially like the reduced form of splitting for these.


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## Shade (May 6, 2009)

Yeah, the splitting looks like fun.

It'll be nice to get some non-Gargantuan worms!

Medium or Large?   

Purple worm (G): Str 35, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8
Century Worm (G): Str 35, Dex 7, Con 22, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2
Lucent Worm (G): Str 34, Dex 9, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 8
Overworm (G): Str 40, Dex 8, Con 24, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 8
Giant Velvet Worm (H): Str 22, Dex 11, Con 16, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 2 (more of a caterpillar, though)
Giant Maggot (S): Str 7, Dex 13, Con 13, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Mulworm (D): Str 1, Dex 12, Con 11, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 4 (again, caterpillar)
Wormswarm (D Swarm): Str 1, Dex 22, Con 18, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 8


Based on that, I can see basic worm ability scores as follows:

Fine: Str 1-2, Dex 19-24, Con 10-13, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Diminutive: Str 1-2, Dex 17-22, Con 10-13, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Tiny: Str 2-5, Dex 15-17, Con 10-13, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Small: Str 6-7, Dex 13-15, Con 10-13, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Medium: Str 10-11, Dex 12-15, Con 10-13, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Large: Str 18-19, Dex 12-13, Con 14-17, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Huge: Str 26-27, Dex 10-11, Con 18-21, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Gargantuan: Str 34-35, Dex 6-9, Con 22-25, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8
Colossal: Str 42-43, Dex 6-9, Con 26-29, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8


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## freyar (May 6, 2009)

Based on other worms, I'd say Medium for the sizes listed in the original stats.  Abilities seem good.


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## Shade (May 7, 2009)

Str 10, Dex 13, Con 11, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 8



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Nereidae are predominantly marine organisms that may occasionally swim upstream to rivers and even climb to land (for example Lycastopsis catarractarum). They are commonly found in all water depths, foraging in seaweeds, hiding under rocks or burrowing in sand or mud. Nereids are mainly omnivorous but many are active carnivores. All are semelparous - (they reproduce once at the end of their life) and the majority undergo epitoky.




Aquatic/Amphibious or hold breath?

5 ft. land speed?

Racial bonus on Hide checks?


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## demiurge1138 (May 8, 2009)

I like aquatic with hold breath.


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## Shade (May 8, 2009)

Hmmm...on further research, it appears the Nereis in the article is referring to the Common clam worm (Nereis succinea).  In that case, it probably won't leave the water, right?

Added to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (May 8, 2009)

Well, there are ragworms that crawl around on beaches and mudflats. Let's keep the hold breath.


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Ahh...sure enough!

Didn't we do a "reverse hold breath" for water-breathers in a semi-recent conversion?


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## freyar (May 11, 2009)

We did water dependent for the greater sea giant, but I'm not sure that's what you're thinking about.  We can just reverse hold breath, though, pretty straightforward.


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## Shade (May 11, 2009)

Ah, OK.  We really need to come up with a better name for it, though.



> Third, all of these worms are capable of regenerating lost hit points if they retain at least 50% of their original hit points (in the real world, regeneration takes several weeks; for AD&D game purposes, however, it is far more rapid). One-half of the lost hit points will be recovered the first night, and 1d6 hp are recovered per day thereafter. As a result, the DM might rule that a 32-hp Diopatra (q.v.) which takes 15 hp damage in one round suddenly flees combat, withdrawing deep into its dwelling tube to emerge the next morning (to the surprise of the characters) at nearly full power.




How do we want to handle that?



> If a sword of sharpness or vorpal weapon neatly cuts a worm into two parts, both parts flee (each having half the hit points the worm formerly did, counting the damage it took from previous attacks and from the attack that cut it in two). They each then regenerate into two separate worms, but each new worm recovers only one-half the total hit points the original worm possessed after one night, and no new hit points are gained thereafter. Thus, a 40-hp worm might be cut into two parts after taking other damage as well; each half is assumed here to have 12 hp. Each half regenerates after one night into a new, smaller worm with 32 hp. If either new worm is wounded, the usual rules for regeneration are followed.




Shall we modify this?

Split (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.

Maybe limit to slashing weapons?



> This worm prefers plant material for food, but it does attack animals small enough to swallow in one gulp (1’ or less in size).




Swallow whole (two or maybe three sizes smaller than itself)?



> The bristles on the Nereis are primarily used to gain purchase while the worm is moving. These bristles may cause minor damage to an attacker, however, doing 1-2 hp damage to anyone who touches the worm.




Another modification of barbed defense?


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2009)

I think hold breath works just fine for the name of the ability.

Agreed to a weak barbed defense.


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

Also agreed to barbed defense.

On the "regeneration," why not just say that they get 4x the normal hp back from rest or something?

Split needs to be limited to slashing, but also something that could conceivably cut them in half.  Not sure what's a good condition, though.


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## Cleon (May 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Based on other worms, I'd say Medium for the sizes listed in the original stats.  Abilities seem good.




I'd add Improved Grab (for the hooked jaws) and Swallow Whole (if the target is small enough). If a standard (Medium) giant nereis can swallow creatures a foot long (Diminutive) that'd be three size categories different, but that seems a bit high in comparison to SRD swallow whole monsters. The Tyrannosaurus and Behir can swallow two size categories difference, which seems a better fit. I don't think they should be as good at Swallow Whole as Purple Worms and Remorhaz which can manage one size step difference, they presumably are more specialized in gulping down victims.

So, Swallow Whole versus Tiny or less? It doesn't make any difference to most PCs (unless they're reduced or have familiars), although halflings had better watch out around giant nereis that have advanced to Large size.


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

Updated, with the exceptions of split and regeneration, which still need work.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Shall we modify this?
> 
> Split (Ex): Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A pudding with 10 hit points or less cannot be further split and dies if reduced to 0 hit points.
> 
> Maybe limit to slashing weapons?






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Split needs to be limited to slashing, but also something that could conceivably cut them in half. Not sure what's a good condition, though.




Maybe a slashing weapon that deals x points of damage, or one that scores a cirtical hit?




			
				freyar said:
			
		

> On the "regeneration," why not just say that they get 4x the normal hp back from rest or something?




Like this?

Faster Healing (Ex): A polarwere recovers hit points or ability score points (lost to ability damage) at twice the normal rate: 2 hit points per HD for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 hit points per HD for each full day of complete rest; 2 ability score points for a full 8 hours of rest in a day, or 4 ability score points for each full day of complete rest.


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## freyar (May 12, 2009)

I agree with Cleon about Imp Grab and Swallow Whole for 2 size categories difference.

For split, let's say slashing weapons that crit.  Instead of doing damage, there are now 2 worms with 1/2 the hp each.

Faster Healing looks about right.  We just need to decide the multiplier.


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2009)

Agreed to slashing critical triggering the split.


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## Shade (May 12, 2009)

So...

Split (Ex): A critical hit with a slashing weapon deals no damage to a nereis. Instead the worm splits into two identical worms, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A nereis with 1 hit point or less cannot be further split and suffers damage normally.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

Looks good to me!  Odd that you wouldn't want to crit, but it's kind of cool.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Suggested multiplier for the faster healing?


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

You know,  I think we can stick with the 2x multiplier.


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2009)

Agreed to 2x.


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## Shade (May 13, 2009)

Updated.

Fill in the x's...

Swallow Whole (Ex): A nereis can try to swallow a grabbed opponent two size categories smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes x+x points of crushing damage plus x points of acid damage per round from the worm’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC x). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Medium nereis’s interior can hold 2 Tiny, 8 Diminutive, or 32 fine opponents.


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## freyar (May 13, 2009)

1d4 bludgeoning and 1 acid?  4hp damage to escape?  Gizzard AC is 10.


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## Shade (May 14, 2009)

Sounds good.



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Withdraw into lair






> The Nereis constructs mucous tubes in debris or loose sand and mud, from which it moves to capture prey. If threatened, the Nereis attempts to withdraw deep into its tube, becoming impossible to hit; otherwise, it attempts to swim away.




Do anything with that other than flavor text?

Environment: Any aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-12)

x= Colony?

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x


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## freyar (May 14, 2009)

Sounds like combat tactics to me.

CR 1/4 or maybe 1/2?

I feel like this next will set some kind of precedent for these worms. 
Advancement: 2 HD (Medium), 3-5 HD (Large)?


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> So...
> 
> Split (Ex): A critical hit with a slashing weapon deals no damage to a nereis. Instead the worm splits into two identical worms, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down). A nereis with 1 hit point or less cannot be further split and suffers damage normally.




Sorry for being late on the Split issue, but I have a couple of problems with this.

Firstly, real-life worms that can survive being bisected do still take damage from it, they just heal up. Thus, I'd suggest the worm takes regular damage from the slashing weapon (i.e. no chance of critical confirmation), and the remainder are divided between the two halves.

Secondly, surely only the front half of the worm would have jaws when its cut in half, so how does the back half attack? I'd suggest the back-half of the worm needs X rounds (X=3? X=1d4+2?) to grow itself a new head and set of jaws before it can attack.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> Sounds like combat tactics to me.
> 
> CR 1/4 or maybe 1/2?




Yes, it's not exactly deadly. 1/4 seems a bit low. How about going for the middle and saying 1/3?



freyar said:


> I feel like this next will set some kind of precedent for these worms.
> Advancement: 2 HD (Medium), 3-5 HD (Large)?




Well, most of the SRD wormish creatures (Purple Worm, Remorhaz) max out to 3 times the base specimens Hit Dice, but 1-3HD seems a bit low.

The Dragon magazine version we're converting is 1 to 4 Hit Dice, which suggests Advancement: 2 HD (Medium); 3-4 HD (Large).

Upon reflection, I'd prefer its Advancement covered several steps in size, since such worms can vary greatly in dimensions in real life.

How about 2HD (M), 3-4 (L), 5-8 (H)?

That would make the largest specimens 40' monsters able to swallow a man whole, but still a size-step smaller than a Purple Worm.


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Sorry for being late on the Split issue, but I have a couple of problems with this.
> 
> Firstly, real-life worms that can survive being bisected do still take damage from it, they just heal up. Thus, I'd suggest the worm takes regular damage from the slashing weapon (i.e. no chance of critical confirmation), and the remainder are divided between the two halves.
> 
> Secondly, surely only the front half of the worm would have jaws when its cut in half, so how does the back half attack? I'd suggest the back-half of the worm needs X rounds (X=3? X=1d4+2?) to grow itself a new head and set of jaws before it can attack.




The problem with it taking damage on the split is that the worm has so few hp in the first place.  Dividing the hp at least reduces the hp of the individual parts.  But, yeah, I don't know a good solution for this.

I could get on board with a regrowth time, but we should specify that the back half runs away until it grows a head.  



Cleon said:


> Yes, it's not exactly deadly. 1/4 seems a bit low. How about going for the middle and saying 1/3?



1/3 sounds ok.



> Well, most of the SRD wormish creatures (Purple Worm, Remorhaz) max out to 3 times the base specimens Hit Dice, but 1-3HD seems a bit low.
> 
> The Dragon magazine version we're converting is 1 to 4 Hit Dice, which suggests Advancement: 2 HD (Medium); 3-4 HD (Large).
> 
> ...




Well, I was wondering if some of the other worms in this series started out larger.  Perhaps Shade can tell us --- if there are larger ones, I don't see a need to let this one get too big, since there will be other worms to use.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> The problem with it taking damage on the split is that the worm has so few hp in the first place.  Dividing the hp at least reduces the hp of the individual parts.  But, yeah, I don't know a good solution for this.




Yes, I realized the low hp would be an issue. What alternatives are there? It could have a chance of splitting whenever it takes slashing damage more than its HD. (say if it rolls under the slashing damage on d8s equal to its HD, or if it fails a fort save of X+damage) That seems a bit too exception-based though.



freyar said:


> I could get on board with a regrowth time, but we should specify that the back half runs away until it grows a head.




Good idea, it'd likely burrow underground to heal up.



freyar said:


> Well, I was wondering if some of the other worms in this series started out larger.  Perhaps Shade can tell us --- if there are larger ones, I don't see a need to let this one get too big, since there will be other worms to use.




No need to wait, I've got that issue of _Dragon_ so just need to pull it up...

Here we go, the Dragon's Bestiary includes the following worms:

Nereis: 1-4 HD, L (1-2' diameter; 5-10' long)
Diopatra: 2-10 HD, L (2-4' diameter; 12-25' long)
Eunice: 2-16 HD, stats as Diopatra
Lumbrineris: 2-10 HD, (1-3' diameter; 20-30' long) stats as Diopatra
Vanadis: 2-8 HD, L (1½-3' diameter; 10-20' long)
Eurythoe: 2-8 HD, L (2-4' diameter; 5-7' long)
Glycera: 2-8 HD, L (2-3' diameter, 10-20' long)
Sabella: 2-4 HD, M (1-3' diameter, 5-7' long)
Terebella: 3-10 HD, L (5' body with 40' tentacles)
Pectinaria: 2-5 HD, M (5' long cone, 2-2.5' wide at mouth)

_Vanadis_ is the only other worm listed that swallows its prey whole like _Nereis_, but it doesn't bite them but sucks them in with an evertible proboscis.

So the HD Advancement ranges from eight-fold (for _Eunice_) to two-fold (for Sabella), with median and mean of four-fold (four of the worms are 1-4 or 2-8 HD, add up the HD ratios and divide by #worms = 4.1333)


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## freyar (May 15, 2009)

Let's let Shade and demiurge vote on the Split.

I say we go to 4 or maybe 6 times HD and let each advance by a step, starting each at it's upper length range.  That lets Nereis be Medium or Large and Vanadis be possibly Huge or Gargantuan (going to have to increase those HD, though, I think!).  But I don't have a big objection to more advancement for any or all of these, if that's the consensus.

Terebella sure has exceptional reach!


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## Shade (May 15, 2009)

I vote no damage on the split (although unrealistic, it works much better mechanically), but agree with the regrowth period.

I like the greater range of advancement, too.


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2009)

I'm alright with the split attack doing damage, but the question becomes one of accounting. Which half takes the damage? This makes things rather more complicated and doesn't make things more fun, which is our goal here. Deals regular damage, then the remaining hit points are split among the two halves works, but I'd rather just let the splitting attack deal no damage, realism be damned.


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## Cleon (May 15, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's let Shade and demiurge vote on the Split.




Well it looks like they've spoken, so we may as well stick with it as written.



freyar said:


> I say we go to 4 or maybe 6 times HD and let each advance by a step, starting each at it's upper length range.  That lets Nereis be Medium or Large and Vanadis be possibly Huge or Gargantuan (going to have to increase those HD, though, I think!).  But I don't have a big objection to more advancement for any or all of these, if that's the consensus.
> 
> Terebella sure has exceptional reach!




Well _Vanadis_ is a lot, ah, *stretchier *than _Nereis _in how it swallows prey, so I think it's probably Large to Huge-sized and can manage victims one size smaller than itself. Of the others, _Eunice_ is the only one that looks like a candidate for Gargantuan size in its larger forms.

Hmm, how did all those ’' get where I put ' in my previous post? Must be a copy-and-paste problem. I think I'll edit it to cut them out, just to make it prettier.


----------



## Shade (May 15, 2009)

Catching up...

CR 1/3?

Headless half of split must wait 1d4+2 rounds to grow a new head?

What was the final decision on advancement?

Environment: Any aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or colony (2-12)?


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## freyar (May 16, 2009)

That sounds about right on everything, though the head-regrowth time could be longer if desired.

I don't think there's a final consensus on the sizes yet.  I think going to 4x or 6x the original HD and one size step is probably ok, but maybe Cleon still prefers going larger.  Not a bit deal to me.


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## demiurge1138 (May 16, 2009)

4x and one size larger works for me.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 4x and one size larger works for me.




I think I'll go for that option, it's easy enough to stretch the standard model if anyone wants a 'supersize' Nereis. Are we OK with 2 HD (M) and 3-4 HD (L)?


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## freyar (May 17, 2009)

That's good for me.  And that's probably a decent standard for these in general (up to 2 times at the same size, the rest at a step larger).


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## Cleon (May 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> That's good for me.  And that's probably a decent standard for these in general (up to 2 times at the same size, the rest at a step larger).




Sounds good, we can add another size advancement for Eunice as its Hit Dice advance eightfold (2-16HD), and use the fourfold model for the rest.

It looks like we still need a bit of work on Split, some text about the two halves fleeing once split. As for the head regrowth, going by the original text it would take a standard 8 hour rest for a Nereis half to grow a new head.

Oh, and I agree with Shade's proposals for environment [any aquatic] and organization [Solitary or colony (2-12)].

That leaves the only remaining X as its weight. They're pretty hefty (up to 2' thick!), so I would think somewhere at the upper range of the 50-400 pound Medium weight range, somewhere around 200-300 pounds. They're 20-40% thinner and between one-eighth and one-sixteenth shorter than a 40,000 lb Purple Worm, which works out as 100-800 pounds. [EDIT]That suggests the 5-10' length includes fully advanced specimens, so the 'base worm' we list would be the 5 foot long 1 foot thick one)[END EDIT]

So, 100 lbs?

Oh, and I had another idea. These are burrowing worms, right, so shouldn't they have Tremorsense?


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## Shade (May 18, 2009)

Updated.

Excellent point on tremorsense.  60 feet?


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## freyar (May 18, 2009)

Sounds good.  Is it done, then?


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## demiurge1138 (May 18, 2009)

Agreed to tremorsense. 

Frankly, I think these guys should be CR 1/2. The bristles are mean to low-level parties--they might do more damage to themselves trying to hit the worm than the worm does by attacking!


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## freyar (May 18, 2009)

I guess I could see CR 1/2.  But after one attack or so, wouldn't people back off and use ranged weapons?


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> Excellent point on tremorsense.  60 feet?




Yes, I was thinking 60 ft., the same as the Purple Worm and Ankheg.



demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to tremorsense.
> 
> Frankly, I think these guys should be CR 1/2. The bristles are mean to low-level parties--they might do more damage to themselves trying to hit the worm than the worm does by attacking!




I've been thinking that over and we may be overdoing the bristles. After glancing at a few pictures of clam worms their bristle aren't that long, say 3-4" if the worm is embiggened to 1' wide. That's not really long enough that a creatures using a melee weapon risks harming itself, so maybe we should curb them to only be effective against natural attacks?


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2009)

I've seen some stubborn PCs in my day...

And I think the bristles should be kept for damaging attackers with weapons. Again, realism is a secondary concern to making an interesting monster.


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## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I've seen some stubborn PCs in my day...
> 
> And I think the bristles should be kept for damaging attackers with weapons. Again, realism is a secondary concern to making an interesting monster.




So have I, so have I.

Well if I remember my bristle worms aright there are some species that look like elongated sea-urchins scrambling along, so its not outside the bounds of reason to say they have 2 to 3 foot bristles that can hit any creature using regulation length armaments. I'd have thought it would make it rather difficult for the to burrow, though. A more plausible rationalisation is would be they reflexively lash out at an attacker with their bristles. If the latter, maybe then need to make an attack roll to inflict the bristle damage?


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## Shade (May 19, 2009)

I'd like to keep the "passive damage" aspect, rather than requiring an attack roll.  They can barely hit with their bite, so this at least gives them some degree of threat to would-be attackers.

Updated.  Anything left for this one?


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'd like to keep the "passive damage" aspect, rather than requiring an attack roll.  They can barely hit with their bite, so this at least gives them some degree of threat to would-be attackers.
> 
> Updated.  Anything left for this one?




Well we should remove the -1 size penalty from its AC since it isn't Large anymore.

I wouldn't mind tweaking the name of its regenerative power, methinks 'faster healing' is a bit too close to 'fast healing', maybe change it to Accelerated Healing?

Apart from that it looks fine to me.


----------



## freyar (May 20, 2009)

We got Faster Healing from the polarwere.  Has that one gone in the CC yet?  If not, I guess we could change the name there, also.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

It has gone in, but that doesn't have to stop us.  I'm not real fond of the name either, but we borrowed it from a feat with a similar mechanic in Complete Warrior.   "Accelerated Healing" is much more appealing, so let's go for it.

Updated.

A few other things from the main entry that we may want to address before moving on...



> Second, all of them have two sexes, unlike earthworms. Consequently, the mad mage who would establish a breeding population in his coastal moat has to bring back more than one giant worm. And how does said mage tell what sex of worm he has? Easily: By waiting until the breeding season, cutting open one segment from the middle region of the worm, and seeing what sort of reproductive organs are inside (perhaps a good job for the local druid).




Probably just flavor text.



> Finally, those worms that live in tubes or burrows have a giant nerve cell which runs the length of their bodies. This cell triggers the escape response, enabling the worm to withdraw in a flash at the first hint of danger. In general, worms are alarmed by looming shapes that are larger than they are.




Racial bonus on Spot checks, or will tremorsense suffice?


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2009)

I believe tremorsense has already been argued for. Let's go with that.


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## Shade (May 20, 2009)

Updated flavor text.   Moving on...

*DIOPATRA*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 5-50
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: //9. (3.)
HIT DICE: 2-10
% IN LAIR: 98%
TREASURE TYPE: Jaws (see below)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 grasp, then 1 bite per round
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8 or 1-4, then 1-6 per round
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Grasping; surprise on 1-4 from tunnel
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (2-4. diameter; 12-25. long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The Diopatra has a much more complex jaw apparatus than does the Nereis, having both upper and lower sets of jaws. The upper jaws consist of a pair of pincers with subsidiary shearing jaws. The upper jaws work as a single unit: If the upper jaws make a successful roll to hit prey, they hold the prey steady while the shearing jaws rip into it to hold the prey in place for the lower jaws to work. The upper jaws cannot chew. The initial attack by the upper jaws is made at +4 against all armor types rated as bulky or fairly bulky because of the speed of the worm. Damage is only 1-4 hp against such heavily armored prey, however, compared to 1-8 hp against characters wearing non-bulky or no armor. 

The lower jaws consist of two large, fused, chisel-shaped mandibles which move forward and backward independently of the upper jaws. After the first attack, the lower jaws are used once per round in an attempt to chop off a bite-sized piece of the prey; this piece is then swallowed whole. Attacks by the lower jaws do 1-6 hp damage, and are made at +3 due to the immobilization of the prey by the upper jaws.

In addition to the jaws, the Diopatra has four sets of hooked bristles under its first two pairs of fleshly lobes (called parapodia). These hooks are used to position the captured prey and are automatically considered to score a hit on the round after a successful attack is made by the upper jaws. No damage is done by this initial grasping.

To escape, a captured creature must either kill or severely damage the worm (reducing it below 50% hit points), or break free of the pincers and hooked bristles simultaneously. The pincers are AC 1 and have 4 hp, although blunt weapons may strike at the pincers at +2 to hit; reducing the pincers to zero hit points destroys them, though this does not reduce the worm’s normal hit points. A strength check on 1d20 will allow a PC to pull free of the hooks, which do 0-2 (1d3 -1) hp damage in the process. Pulling free of the pincers requires a bend bars/lift gates strength roll, which may be made once per round and causes 1-6 hp damage if successful. Pulling free of both pincers and hooks may be done in the same round if no other actions are taken.

The Diopatra lives in vertical tubes in soft sand, generally in shallow water or lower tidal flats. While feeding, it lurks near the top of its tube, using its long antennae to sense for vibrations and to “smell” chemicals emitted by possible food. The worm can distinguish the presence or absence of light, but is otherwise essentially blind.

The Diopatra eats anything (plant or animal, living or dead) that doesn.t appear too big and menacing. These worms lunge forward from their tube at a distance equal to one-third of their length to capture prey. The Diopatra are generally found in colonies rather than in isolation, with tubes spaced far enough apart so that the larger worms can.t have the smaller for lunch. Consequently, it is possible for a character to be attacked by two worms simultaneously if he is midway between two tubes.

The jaws of the Diopatra are hardened by thick deposits of aragonite (mother-ofpearl) and are of some value to knowledgeable jewelers. The upper jaws generally bring 5-10 gp per lb. depending upon their quality, with the whole set weighing 5-8 lbs. The lower jaws are highly prized, and may bring as much as 15 gp per pound, weighing 3-6 lbs.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #133 (1988).


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2009)

So... improved grab and chew seem to be the primary mechanic here.


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## Cleon (May 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> A few other things from the main entry that we may want to address before moving on...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with it just being flavour text.



> Finally, those worms that live in tubes or burrows have a giant nerve cell which runs the length of their bodies. This cell triggers the escape response, enabling the worm to withdraw in a flash at the first hint of danger. In general, worms are alarmed by looming shapes that are larger than they are.



To me that looks more like a version of a rogue's Evasion (i.e. Reflex save to duck into its burrow and entirely avoid an attack).

I'm reluctant to pile more special qualities on it thought, especially as IIRC a Nereis isn't a tube-dweller with a lightning-fast sheltering reflex.

So I'd like to call the Nereis done and go on to the next worm.

EDIT: Oh, except I did notice one little quibble with the write-up. I'd say "weighing 100 pounds or more" Rather than "weighing about 100 pounds", since the listed weight is probably a minimum.


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## freyar (May 24, 2009)

No need for evasion on the Nereis, I think.

Agreed to improved grab and chew for diopatra.  The parapodia might just give a bonus to grapple checks, or they could also constrict along with chewing.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2009)

freyar said:


> No need for evasion on the Nereis, I think.
> 
> Agreed to improved grab and chew for diopatra.  The parapodia might just give a bonus to grapple checks, or they could also constrict along with chewing.




Good, enworld is up and running again!

I think the Nereis is done with unless we change our minds on the 'Escape Response'. I couldn't see anything to niggle about apart from the weight.

As for the Diopatra, I agree with the Improved Grab/Chew mechanism. We could just swap some nouns in the octopus's version of the ability:*Improved Grab (Ex)*
To use this ability, an octopus must hit an opponent of any size with its arms attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage. 

*Improved Grab (Ex)*
To use this ability, a diopatra must hit an opponent of any size with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity, with a +4[?] racial bonus to its grapple check. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage. ​Oh, and I think we need a lunge attack, something like:*Lunge (Ex)*
A Diopatra can lunge out of its burrow as a full-round action, stretching up to twice its reach (10 feet, 20 feet for Huge worms, 30 ft. for Gargantuan) and then making a bite attack with a +4 circumstance bonus. This counts as a charge.​I'm starting to reconsider the Escape Response, it may be worth giving to the Nereis and Diopatra. Something like:*Escape Response (Ex)*
A Nereis can duck inside its burrow with lightning speed to avoid attacks. This is an immediate action. The attacker must succeed on a DC15 Reflex save to hit a Nereis using its escape response with a weapon attack.

A Nereis retreats whenever it is threatened by a creature with a size category larger than itself. This is an automatic reflex over which the Nereis has no control, but it can also trigger its escape response whenever it chooses.

To use its Escape Response ability, the Nereis must have part of its body within its burrow. The worm automatically releases any opponent held in its jaws if its escape response is triggered.

After triggering its escape response, the nereis will have moved 10 feet inside its tunnel. Thus, it must make a burrow move action to return to the entrance of its lair before it can attack any creatures outside.

The saving throw DC check is Dexterity based and includes a +4 racial bonus.​The Diopatra presumably could have the same ability, since its a burrow dweller as well.

If we do give the Nereis this Special Ability I think it should bump its CR up a bit, since it considerably improves its defenses.

EDIT: How about we keep the Nereis as is and just give Diopatra the Escape Response, it's got the ability to lunge out of its burrow with lightning speed, so having it be able to retreat with similar alacrity has a pleasing symmetry.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2009)

Shall we start on the stats?

Medium or Large? Its considerably longer than Nereis (12'+ vs 5'+) and thicker (2'+ vs 1'+), which would argue for Large, but I'm thinking 2HD since a 2HD Nereis is medium sized. If it is Large, we may not need to add that racial bonus to grapple.

*Hit Dice:* 2d8

*Armour Class:* AC8 is one better than a Nereis, and it may have a size penalty, so I guess it needs a higher natural armour. +2 or +3?

*Speed:* swim 20 ft., burrow 10 ft. [same as Nereis]

*Attack:* Bite +? melee (1d6+?)

*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, lunge
*Special Qualities:* Accelerated healing, darkvision 60 ft., escape response, split, tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits

Advancement: 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 (Huge); 9-16 (Gargantuan) [to include its bigger relative Eunice]


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## demiurge1138 (May 24, 2009)

I feel no need for a Lunge or Escape Response ability.

Giving the parapodia a +4 bonus to grapple checks strikes me as an elegant mechanic.


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## Cleon (May 24, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I feel no need for a Lunge or Escape Response ability.
> 
> Giving the parapodia a +4 bonus to grapple checks strikes me as an elegant mechanic.




Well, I'm not bothered about the Lunge ability, I just stuck that in as a suggestion in case we wanted to model the original's +4 to hit on its initial attack.

I would like to have some form of Escape Response, though.


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## freyar (May 25, 2009)

Well, it strikes me that the morale is pretty low for these worms.  What if the tactics just include using a lot of withdrawal actions?


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## demiurge1138 (May 25, 2009)

freyar said:


> What if the tactics just include using a lot of withdrawal actions?



I agree. Much less paperwork.


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## Cleon (May 26, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I agree. Much less paperwork.




Sorry, since we're still talking 3rd edition I thought you liked lots of paperwork. 

Well, if no-one else fancies a Lunge or Escape Action mechanism we can just do without. A standard charge attack is a fair approximation of a Lunge, but if we only have it using the SRD's basic movement rules to withdraw it won't be able to duck into its burrow and avoid attacks on an opponent's initiative. (Well I suppose it could Ready an action to move when attacked, but then it wouldn't be able to attack itself.)

So long as everyone's alright with that, I'm fine with going on to the stats. I can always bolt my Lunge / Escape mechanism onto the final monster.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Medium or Large? Its considerably longer than Nereis (12'+ vs 5'+) and thicker (2'+ vs 1'+), which would argue for Large, but I'm thinking 2HD since a 2HD Nereis is medium sized. If it is Large, we may not need to add that racial bonus to grapple.




I'm torn, here.  My gut says "Large", but I can definitely see justification for Medium.

Does anyone have a strong preference?


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## demiurge1138 (May 26, 2009)

Let's go Large. And see what its grapple bonus is like from there.


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Large sounds right.  And it should definitely get something for the parapodia, even if not a grapple bonus.


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## Shade (May 26, 2009)

Upthread, we'd figured the ability score range as follows:

Large: Str 18-19, Dex 12-13, Con 14-17, Int —, Wis 8-11, Cha 8

Also, a few links:

Marine Biological Laboratory

Diopatra ornata

Polychaetes Template

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fBsmUbLxcs]YouTube - Diopatra em AÃ§Ã£o I[/ame]


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## freyar (May 26, 2009)

Let's do Str 19, Dex 13, Con 16, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 8.  How's that?


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## Cleon (May 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's do Str 19, Dex 13, Con 16, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 8.  How's that?




The physical stats look OK, I'd make it Wis 10 instead of 9 and possibly drop the Cha.

It's just an animal of unusual size, not a magical monster like a Purple Worm, so I'm not sure it needs the same Cha. The SRD gives snakes and Monstrous Vermin Cha 2, which seems more appropriate. Although giant beetles have Cha 7-9, a similar range to Purple Worms. Maybe average the two to Cha 5?

If it's Large and Str 19, that works out BAB/Grapple +1/+9 without any parapodia bonus, +1/+13 if the parapodia give it a +4.

A +9 grapple modifier seems enough for a 2HD monster which probably has a low CR. The parapodia could just allow it to make its Improved Grab.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

We gave the nereis Wis 11, Cha 8, so let's stick with that for consistency's sake.


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## freyar (May 27, 2009)

Works for me.

Edit: I don't mind dropping the Cha, but then we should edit Nereis, I think.


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## Shade (May 27, 2009)

I am not opposed to lowering the Cha for both.


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## freyar (May 28, 2009)

Cha 5 for both, then, and use that as a standard?

I'm ok if we think an additional racial grapple bonus is too much, but then let's give the parapodia a minor amount of constrict damage (to go with chew).  They're really screaming out to do something.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

Sounds good.   I updated nereis to reflect the new Cha score.

Added Diopatra to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (May 29, 2009)

Regarding the Parapodia, I'd rather have them offer a racial bonus to grappling than do additional damage. I'd leave the grab & chew damage to its double set of jaws.

If you think a +13 total grapple bonus is too high, we could lower the worm's strength (To say Str 15?), or lower its racial bonus to grapple to +2.

Of the two options, I think I prefer dropping the Strength a bit, since I'm imagining this animal as having a low Challenge Rating (say, CR½) and don't think such a creature should have a 1d8+6 damage. 1d6+3 seems more appropriate.


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

I think this may be more like CR 1.

Shade, have you already put in a +4 racial grapple bonus?

I'd be fine with dropping Str to 15, reducing the base damage to 1d6, and reducing the racial grapple to +2.  But it's still probably CR 1.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Yes, the +13 includes the +4 racial bonus.

I'm fine with the high grapple bonus, as it is the creature's main niche.  If you guys would still like to reduce them, that's fine though.

Also...I'd actually like these fellows to be CR 1!


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## Cleon (May 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yes, the +13 includes the +4 racial bonus.
> 
> I'm fine with the high grapple bonus, as it is the creature's main niche.  If you guys would still like to reduce them, that's fine though.
> 
> Also...I'd actually like these fellows to be CR 1!




Well +13 grapple is a bit high for a CR1, its level-appropriate PC opponents are unlikely to have much more than +4 grapple (i.e. 1st lvl fighter with Str 16-17 and +1 BAB).

I'm not so sure about the 1d8+6 bite damage as well (av. 10.5, plus grab & auto-chew?), it's a bit tougher than some CR1 humanoids (i.e. the Gnoll does 1d8+3), although it's not that far off the CR1 Medium Monstrous Scorpion, which has three attacks adding up to 3d4+2 damage (av 9.5 if all hit), plus Improved Grab, Constrict and Poison. The scorpion's only got a +2 melee attack & grapple check with its claws though, so its grab & constrict are a lot less effective. Its poison is a pretty effective damage boost, though, and some of the monstrous vermin are arguably a bit too tough for their CR.

Trimming the worm's strength down to 15 seems to me the easiest way to balance it.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Str 15 and whatever else is appropriate for CR 1 sounds right.  And I agree with Shade, CR 1 is just fine!


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Str 15 it is.  Updated.

For the secondary jaws, is this the ability we were looking for?

Chew (Ex): When a carnictis gets a hold on a foe, it chews and swallows vast hunks of the creature’s flesh, dealing 2d6+6 damage each round it maintains the grapple.


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Str 15 it is.  Updated.
> 
> For the secondary jaws, is this the ability we were looking for?
> 
> Chew (Ex): When a carnictis gets a hold on a foe, it chews and swallows vast hunks of the creature’s flesh, dealing 2d6+6 damage each round it maintains the grapple.




Yup, that's what I was aiming at.

What damage were you thinking off for Chew, 1d8+3 like the bite attack?


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

I'd expect this to be the bite damage.

Man, we've really gotten a number of variants of standard abilities, huh?  Chew, maul, etc.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Indeed!  Variants are fun.  

Updated.

Cleon, didn't you figure out an Advancement range for these guys earlier?

Other than that, I think we just need flavor and tactics.


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Weight, maybe 4-5 times as much as nereis?


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## Cleon (Jun 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Cleon, didn't you figure out an Advancement range for these guys earlier?




I   proposed Advancement: 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 (Huge); 9-16 (Gargantuan) [to include its bigger relative Eunice] back in post #764.



freyar said:


> Weight, maybe 4-5 times as much as nereis?




Logically, it should be around 800 pounds, since its around twice as long & thick as a Nereis, but I'm tempted to put it at the minimum weight for standard size Large monsters, 500 pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

That advancement is good for me, and we can maybe mention somewhere that Eunice can be represented by an advanced Diopatra.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Updated (and added Eunice sidebar).

Anything left before moving on?

Edit:  I just noticed this member of Eunicidae:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobbit_worm

This almost sounds like it should have Improved Init as a bonus feat and maybe augmented critical.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

We could note in the Eunice sidebar that the next feats they take are Imp Init and Improved Crit.  Would that work?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2009)

Well, Improved Critical requires a better BAB. Giving it to them as a bonus, though, would work.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

We could go bonus or else say it gets it at 12HD.   Either way is fine with me.


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> We could note in the Eunice sidebar that the next feats they take are Imp Init and Improved Crit.  Would that work?




Eh? It's a mindless Vermin, so can't acquire feats normally. Could give it Bonus Feats, I suppose. As for Imp. Crit., you can just arbitrarily give it whatever threat range you fancy without needing a feat.


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated (and added Eunice sidebar).
> 
> Anything left before moving on?




It needs some kind of camouflage ability while in its tube and/or racial bonus to Hide so that creatures will walk up to it without noticing.

I'd think the easiest way to do it would be to decide what Hide bonus we want and reverse-engineer the racial bonus.

Assuming it's CR1, it'll probably be up against PCs with Spot skills of +5 or +6 tops, say we want it to have about a 75% chance of successfully hiding, that would need a Hide Skill of around +10.

So, racial Hide Bonus +12 in its tube, since it doesn't have any skill points and will have a -4 size penalty?

+1 from Dex + 12 from racial bonus -4 size => Hide +9?


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

You know, the more I think about this, I think the eunice should be a separate writeup.   We can start it at higher HD, and focus on the Bobbit Worm (which has been fairly visible on the intarwebs lately).

I'm thinking we do the giant version justice as one of the nastiest worms on earth.   Probably start it at Huge, 8 HD, augmented critical, and so on.  

Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Updated diopatra with suggested Hide modifiers.

Added eunice.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

So is diopatra done?

Eunice is looking good.  Should we give it Improved Initiative (B)?


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

"I believe so" and "yes".


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> So is diopatra done?




I just realized we left out the mother-of-pearl jaws. Do we want to include them in the Treasure?

The description indicates they're worth 25-80gp for the lower jaws, 15-90 for the upper. So that's 40-170 gp, or 105 on average.

So would that be something like Treasure: 1/3 gems (mother of pearl) ?


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> Eunice is looking good.  Should we give it Improved Initiative (B)?




I'm a bit doubtful about the 8HD, since it's at the upper range of the Huge Diopatra's HD spread and they are supposed to be close kin. Also, I though the point was smaller Eunice were the same size as smaller Diopatra, but the larger species of Eunice were bigger.

After doing some Googling a big Diopatra seems to be 15-30cm+ long, while the largest Eunice grow to a metre or more. Thus, having the Eunice Advance to a size category larger than Diopatra seems to fit.

So, I'd be tempted to drop Eunice to a Large creature with 3-4 HD and Advancing up to 16-24 HD or so, and reduce the Diopatra's Advancement somewhat (2-8HD or maybe 2-12 HD range), or make Eunice a Huge creature with 5 or 6 base HD (full range 5-20 or 6-24HD) instead of the proposed 8.

I'm also increasingly of the opinion we may have erred in not making the 2HD Diopatras Medium sized, so Diopatra can go 2HD (Medium); 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 HD (Huge) and Eunice adds 9-16 HD (Gargantuan) and maybe 17-24 HD (Colossal).


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Good suggestion on treasure for diopatra.  I'll add it.

I'd like to stick with the Huge, 8 HD Eunice, since they're modeled off the more specific Bobbit worm (of which 4-foot or longer real-world specimens have been found).  Sure, other members of eunicidae are smaller, but this one seems to make the best D&D encounter.

When making giant varieties of real-world creatures, we have a bit of wiggle room (in a worm thread...hah!) to make the creatures work well as encounters.  We should have a good range of worm sizes by the time we're done.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

The treasure suggestion is nice!  And good fluff text.  

I think I'm with Shade on the sizes, etc.  I like simulationism, but we can't reproduce all life on earth too precisely!


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good suggestion on treasure for diopatra.  I'll add it.
> 
> I'd like to stick with the Huge, 8 HD Eunice, since they're modeled off the more specific Bobbit worm (of which 4-foot or longer real-world specimens have been found).  Sure, other members of eunicidae are smaller, but this one seems to make the best D&D encounter.




Well I was more concerned about making the worms HD fairly consistent with each other, but if no-one else fancies trimming the Eunice HD I'll stop whinging about it.

So, what Advancement shall we give an 8HD version?

I'm thinking it'll have the same sixfold advancement as Diopatra, to max at 48HD, presumably reaching Colossal size. Something like:

Advancement: 9-15 HD (Huge); 16-31 HD (Gargantuan); 32-48 HD (Colossal)

That way a Gargantuan Eunice has the same Hit Dice as a Purple Worm, which seems appropriate.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

That advancement works for me!


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

I love it!

Updated.

Suggested natural armor?

Should the swim speed be boosted from diopatra?

Organization: Solitary?  I haven't seen any evidence that Bobbit worms are territorial.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

I could see boosting swim to 30 ft if people like.  

A remorhaz has +11 natural, which seems like the right ballpark (same size, similar HD).  If we want to argue that eunice should be less because remorhazes are magical, I could see +9 instead.

I guess maybe solitary or some small group?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> I could see boosting swim to 30 ft if people like.




I'd vote against increasing its Swim speed, since it buries itself and lunges at prey just like Diopatra.



freyar said:


> A remorhaz has +11 natural, which seems like the right ballpark (same size, similar HD).  If we want to argue that eunice should be less because remorhazes are magical, I could see +9 instead.




Yes, but Remorhaz's have bony plates to armour themselves, a Eunice has a softer body so should have a lower AC. I was thinking natural armour around +6, the same ballpark as a Tyrannosaurus or Huge Monstrous Centipede.



freyar said:


> I guess maybe solitary or some small group?




I think they can live in large colonies just like Diopatra, hold on while I do a quick google ... hmm, a quick web-search failed to find anything definite either way, but going from their mass-breeding habits I'd infer they can be found in large numbers in some locations.

How about we set Organisation the same as Diopatra?


----------



## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

I'll agree with all of Cleon's suggestions.  The centipede is probably a better match for the natural armor than a remorhaz anyway.


----------



## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

I agree with the natural armor assessment logic, although that leaves it with very poor AC for its probable CR.  How about we boost Dex, since the thing is supposedly lightning quick and probably agile?

I'm not sure a colony of 5-50 is appropriate for something this big.  That would clear-cut a coral forest in about a day!   Maybe 2-20?

The reasoning for keeping the swim speed is sound.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Does Dex 16 seem right to everyone?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Does Dex 16 seem right to everyone?




Boosting its Dex to 16 looks like a good idea to me.

By the way, the description "_The head of this long, bristly worm ends in a five long tentacles and a massive jaw._" is somewhat misleading, plus has a jaw/jaws type. A Eunice's jaws are usually mostly or entirely retracted into its head (see *here*) so are not visible when it isn't biting or feeding, and they aren't any more massive looking than a centipede's.

Oh, and I came across a nice picture of a Bobbit Worm on *flickr*. It's quite a cute fellow, from my googling most of them *aren't that good looking*, being a rather unpleasant (and somewhat suggestive) purple-brown colour.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

Updated.

The body of a mature eunice is x to x feet in diameter and x to x feet in length, weighing about x pounds. 

CR 4?  It's less deadly than the giant velvet worm (CR 5, 10 HD, poisonous).


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

CR 4 is fine for this critter.


----------



## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

CR 4 is fine.  

4-6 ft diameter, 20-40 ft in length, 2000-8000 lb?


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> CR 4 is fine.
> 
> 4-6 ft diameter, 20-40 ft in length, 2000-8000 lb?




Don't much care for that, it seems too thick (diameter to body ratio of 5-6:1) and too light for a Huge monster, which are usually 4000-32000 lbs.

I was thinking more 2-3 feet diameter and 30-50 feet in length, weighing 5000 pounds or so.

EDIT: Oh, and CR4 and the Snatch feat are fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Sounds reasonable.

Updated.

Where'd the Snatch feat suggestion come from?   As mindless creatures, it would have to be a bonus feat.


----------



## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

Probably from the flavor text or from another thread 

Eunice bury themselves in the ocean floor, waiting for prey to approach, then swiftly striking with its sharp jaws. A eunice attacks with such frightening speed that its prey is sometimes sliced in half.


I'm all for adding Snatch as a bonus feat, it would make sense rising up, grabbing prey and hauling it down, wouldn't give it all the perks of improved grab but enough for it to act like a big tube worm.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Actually, why did we drop Improved Grab?  I thought these should have Imp Grab and Chew, like diopatra.  No?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

I cut it since it sounded like it cut off chunks of food, rather than holding and chewing.  I can add it back if it seems appropriate.


----------



## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Well, if we're thinking about Snatch, maybe...


----------



## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, if we're thinking about Snatch, maybe...




I think it needs Improved Grab or Snatch, but not both. I'll leave it to you lot which of the two to pick, 'though Snatch gives it more options.


----------



## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Well, these give me more of a feel of holding and chewing rather than throwing their food around, but Snatch * would make it different from dioptara.  Shade?*


----------



## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, these give me more of a feel of holding and chewing rather than throwing their food around, but Snatch * would make it different from dioptara.  Shade?*



*

If I remember the Snatch feat aright it wouldn't need a Chew SA, since the feat includes the option of auto-biting something in its jaws.*


----------



## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

You're right!  Snatch is a really good feat: imp grab, claw/chew, and tossing all in one.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Snatch as a bonus feat for the win!

Updated.

Are we ready to move on?


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

Aye Captain, what do you have lined up for today?


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Snatch as a bonus feat for the win!
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Are we ready to move on?




Yup, I think we're done.



Leopold said:


> Aye Captain, what do you have lined up for today?




Should be Vanadis, since we're going in the same order as the Dragon article and Lumbrineris can just use Diopatra's stats.

Full worm ahead!


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

We've got one more "variant" to tackle first...

*Lumbrineris*
This worm is another type with complex jaws similar to those of the Diopatra, but is longer and thinner per hit point (1-3’ diameter and 20-30’ long). Because the Lumbrineris burrows actively through mud or sand, it lacks the elaborate antennae and parapodia of the Diopatra, and looks rather like an earthworm. The Lumbrineris feeds by snapping up whatever morsels of organic material are to be found. The jaws of the Lumbrineris are hardened with calcite (limestone) rather than aragonite, and are worth no more than a few silver pieces--except, perhaps, to a magician who needs them for a spell.

I can't find anything in Wikipedia for them, but this page states...

"Nereistoxin extracted from Lumbrineris heteropodais (Lumbrineridae) is used to produce a pecticide (Yang and Sun 1986).   It is useful to kill pests but safe to humans and domestic animals because it can be decomposed and excreted."


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> *Lumbrineris*
> This worm is another type with complex jaws similar to those of the Diopatra, but is longer and thinner per hit point (1-3’ diameter and 20-30’ long). Because the Lumbrineris burrows actively through mud or sand, it lacks the elaborate antennae and parapodia of the Diopatra, and looks rather like an earthworm. The Lumbrineris feeds by snapping up whatever morsels of organic material are to be found. The jaws of the Lumbrineris are hardened with calcite (limestone) rather than aragonite, and are worth no more than a few silver pieces--except, perhaps, to a magician who needs them for a spell.




I thought I already said something about this. Statwise it's just a Diopatra without the valuable jaws for treasure.

I guess we could increase its burrow speed, since it tunnels around for food rather than waiting in its lair.

Burrow 20 ft, same as a Purple Worm?


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I thought I already said something about this. Statwise it's just a Diopatra without the valuable jaws for treasure.




You may have, but with the high number of posts lately, it's hard to keep up!  



Cleon said:


> I guess we could increase its burrow speed, since it tunnels around for food rather than waiting in its lair.
> 
> Burrow 20 ft, same as a Purple Worm?




Sounds good.  Any thought on a weak neurotoxin?


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.  Any thought on a weak neurotoxin?




Many of these worms have mild venom in their bristles as a way of discouraging predators from biting them. We may not be talking about a poison bite here.


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

Add in a toxin when grabbled or unarmed attack is used would be a good solution.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Add in a toxin when grabbled or unarmed attack is used would be a good solution.





That's what I was thinking, something like: 

*Poison Bristles (Ex):* Any creature that grapples the Lumbrineris or hits it with a natural weapon must make a DC X Fortitude save or suffer the effects of a poison attack doing Y initial damage and Z secondary.

Where Y is probably a Str or Dex damage, maybe with some pain-causing component.


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

From univesity of Kentucky:

Stinging Caterpillars | University of Kentucky Entomology



> Caterpillar stages of moths often have spines and barbed hooks. Generally, these are for show and are quite harmless. But there are a few Stinging caterpillars of various shapes, sizes and colors. Stinging caterpillars possess hollow quill-like hairs, connected to poison sacs, that are used as defensive weapons. When these hairs are touched they break through the skin releasing the poison. Reactions can range from a mild itching to the more severe pain, dermatitis, and even intestinal disturbances.




Worms=catepillars=bugs close enough.   I'd almost put it if they fail a save vomit or incapacitated for 1d3 rounds.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Yeah, I might make the damage sickened/1d2 Str, Dex, or Con.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I might make the damage sickened/1d2 Str, Dex, or Con.




That works for me, initial damage X ability damage sickened for 1 minute, secondary damage X ability damage and sickened for 1d10 minutes?

What ability should the venom attack, Dexterity?

Oh, and do its poison bristles work when it uses its Improved Grab to seize prey or are they purely defensive, only working when something else bites/grabs them. I'd think the latter.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

I'd prefer Dex, and the latter.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'd prefer Dex, and the latter.




I agree, let's make it so!

Will we just add this as a subentry to Diopatra?

Oh, and speaking of Diopatra, I've noticed an error in the description "_The head of this long, bristly worm ends in a trio of long tentacles_".

Diopatra have _*five*_ tentacles on their head.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes to all that.

Updated.


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

Anything left on this one?


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

Looks pretty good to me!


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

*VANADIS*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-12
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: //12-15.
HIT DICE: 2-8
% IN LAIR: 0%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallowing whole, continuous damage
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Bristles
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (1½-3. diameter; 10-20' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The Vanadis is a bristle worm that does not build a burrow. It is a good swimmer (it is AC 8 if motionless) and has large eyes with lenses in them, which afford this worm excellent vision.

The Vanadis feeds by everting its proboscis and swallowing its prey whole. It is not equipped with jaws, and thus the success of an attack depends only on the size of the prey (not the armor class). A Vanadis with 5 HD swallows a halfling on a roll of 14, an elf or dwarf on a roll of 15, a human on a roll of 17, and an ogre on a roll of 20. For each hit die which the worm has above five, subtract one from these values; add one for each die less than five. Creatures which require a roll above 20 are too large to swallow and will not be attacked. On the third round after swallowing, the prey is digested at a rate of 1-2 hp per round. Note that the prey is held tightly within the stomach, and is able to cut its way out from the inside only with great difficulty; only the use of a dagger is permitted.

A nice picture of it can be found here.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

Look at how long that evertible pharynx is! We should give this guy better-than-average reach for a creature of its size.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Sounds good.

Should the good vision equate to something like the keen senses of dragons, or simply a racial bonus on Spot checks?

It sounds like it gains a racial bonus on Hide checks when lying motionless.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Look at how long that evertible pharynx is! We should give this guy better-than-average reach for a creature of its size.






Shade said:


> Sounds good.




I thought we were already doing that, since we've been giving these worms the reach of Tall creatures despite them obviously being Long creatures.



Shade said:


> Should the good vision equate to something like the keen senses of dragons, or simply a racial bonus on Spot checks?




I'd just give them a racial bonus to Spot. If a giant eagle doesn't get dragon-style keen eyesight, I don't see why a worm should.



Shade said:


> It sounds like it gains a racial bonus on Hide checks when lying motionless.




Pardon, where are you getting the Hide bonus from?


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I thought we were already doing that, since we've been giving these worms the reach of Tall creatures despite them obviously being Long creatures.




We can either retcon the others, or give this one even longer reach.  



Cleon said:


> Pardon, where are you getting the Hide bonus from?




Good question!  I'm guessing that my mind somehow jumbled the alternate AC for motionless with some sort of Hide bonus.  Maybe because the picture shows it near-transparent?   Dunno, but you can kindly disregard.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> We can either retcon the others, or give this one even longer reach.




Nah, keep it as they are. The previous worms were all described as having extending proboscises or lunging out of prey, so the tall creature's reach seems appropriate.



Shade said:


> Good question!  I'm guessing that my mind somehow jumbled the alternate AC for motionless with some sort of Hide bonus.  Maybe because the picture shows it near-transparent?   Dunno, but you can kindly disregard.




Oh, I was interpreting that as it having a Dex bonus to AC.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2009)

OK, let's start talking about stats.

I'm thinking we can use the *Diopatra* as a base and modify it.​
2 Hit Dice and Large size, advancing up to 8HD.

Speed: Swim 40 ft

Abilities scores as a Diopatra except for Dex 17, so:

Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 11, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 5?

Attack: Touch +3 touch (attach)

Special Attacks: Bristles, improved grab, swallow whole

We could copy swallow whole from the *Nereis*, except I'm thinking this worm can swallow creatures up to one size smaller than itself.

Might as well just copy the Lumbrineris's bristle special attack.

Special Qualities: Accelerated healing, darkvision 60 ft., split, vermin traits

Don't see it having tremorsense, as it's not a burrower. There's no mention of a Split ability in the write-up, but the Dragon magazine version gives all polychaete worms this ability.

Racial skill bonus in Spot and Swim.

EDIT: Oh, and as for advancement, I was thinking:

Advancement: 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 (Huge)


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Sounds like a good summary to me!


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## Leopold (Jun 12, 2009)

works for me. Worms are Worms are icky worms.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I agree with nearly all of that, but let's keep the advancement to Gargantuan.

Suggested bonus on Spot?   Greater than the usual +8 bonus on Swim checks?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

+4 Spot?  I think I'm happy with +8 Swim.

Needs Swallow Whole.  I like Attach rather than Improved Grab, makes sense for these.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Oops!   Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Oops!   Updated.




My first impression was I agree with the racial bonus to grapple, a +5 isn't much good for a Large monster, especially as grappling is its forte. Then again, +5 is OK for a CR1 monster, which argues for keeping it as is and not having a racial bonus. That suggests it is a monster that is at the lightweight end of its size category, if we keep the Swallow up to two size categories smaller it looks like it works out fine.

Large Vanadis, 2HD, Str 10, BAB/Grapple +1/+5 - swallows Small (halfling), CR ~1
Huge Vanadis, 5HD, Str 18, BAB/Grapple +3/+11 - swallows Medium (human), CR ~3
Gargantuan Vanadis, 9HD, Str 26, BAB/Grapple +6/+22 - swallows Large (ogre), CR ~5

Those match up pretty well.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Looking good.  Anyone else want to go to 1 category smaller for swallow whole?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> Looking good.  Anyone else want to go to 1 category smaller for swallow whole?




That was my original idea, but upon reflection 2 categories matches the original description better, which said the smallest Vanadis can swallow a halfling, the largest an ogre.

If we changed it to 1 category the Vanadis's swallow size range would go human to elephant!


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

I have no preference.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

2 categories smaller is fine.  

So does it just need flavor text, tactics, size & weight?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Mostly, although I think the CR should be boosted to 2 due to the incredible reach and simplicity with which it can swallow someone.


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

I agree, reach is huge in this game.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Agreed to the CR boost.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

The body of a mature vanadis is x to x feet in diameter and x to x feet in length, weighing about x pounds.  Coloration varies wildly, from x to x.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 16, 2009)

Shade said:


> Mostly, although I think the CR should be boosted to 2 due to the incredible reach and simplicity with which it can swallow someone.




I think its worth bumping up to CR2 due to its special abilities and Reach, although I'd still prefer it with just a Tall creature's reach like the other worm's we've done. (i.e. 10 ft. for size Large).



Shade said:


> The body of a mature vanadis is x to x feet in diameter and x to x feet in length, weighing about x pounds. Coloration varies wildly, from x to x.




How about:

A typical mature Vanadis is 1½ to 3 feet in diameter and 10 to 20 feet long, weighing between 500 and 2000 pounds, although they can grow considerably larger than this.

I had to fiddle the sums a bit on the weight, but that should cover it.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2009)

I don't know, I think the evertible pharynx is worth reach even more exceptional than the other worms.

Size sounds fine.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> I don't know, I think the evertible pharynx is worth reach even more exceptional than the other worms.




That's alright, I don't mind keeping the extra reach since everyone else seems to like it. It's not too unreasonable. Partly it's that its reach may be longer than the worm itself. How about increasing its minimum length so its the same as the pharynx? Something like.
A typical mature Vanadis is 1½ to 3 feet in diameter and 15 to 30 feet long, weighing between 500 and 4000 pounds, although they can grow considerably larger than this.​That has the added benefit that it fits the lengths & weights of our other worms better.


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

It looks like we just need flavor text and tactics.


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

a 1 ton worm is not a push over.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> It looks like we just need flavor text and tactics.




Something simple should be enough, how about:*Flavour*
 A vanadis does not build a burrow like many other bristle worms, but is a swift swimmer that lives in the open ocean.

 *Tactics*
 A vanadis usually floats motionless in the water until an animal small enough for it to tackle wanders into reach, then shoots out its pharynx to swallow it whole. They will chase after prey, but prefer to wait for their meals to come to them. A badly injured vanadis will swim away from its attackers at its top speed.​EDIT: Oh yes, upon reflection I find my phrasing of the length/weight a little clumsy. It could do without the 'although', making it:
A typical mature Vanadis is 1½ to 3 feet in diameter and 15 to 30 feet long, weighing between 500 and 4000 pounds. They can grow considerably larger than this.​Not that it makes a great deal of difference either way.


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Updated.  Ready to move on?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Ready to move on?




We can as far as I'm concerned.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2009)

EURYTHOE
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 9
MOVE: //3.
HIT DICE: 2-8
% IN LAIR: 0%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (2-4' diameter; 5-7' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The Eurythoe lives in shallow, tropical waters where it feeds on corals. This worm is also called the “fire worm," because it has hollow bristles filled with an irritating toxin. If attacked at close range, the Eurythoe automatically counterattacks. A hit does 1-2 hp damage, plus causing unbearable pain in the victim as per a symbol of pain for 2-12 turns. A successful saving throw vs. poison reduces the agony to 2-12 rounds.

The Eurythoe is a slow-moving worm that generally ignores other creatures, rarely attacking unless it is provoked.

Bristleworm


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2009)

OK, the pain effect is pretty straightforward. Do we want to drop the successful to one round, or negates, perhaps?


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## Leopold (Jun 18, 2009)

Why is it when I read the words "fire worm" i started speaking in a norwegian accent...hmmm


----------



## Cleon (Jun 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> OK, the pain effect is pretty straightforward. Do we want to drop the successful to one round, or negates, perhaps?




Looks pretty simple.

Take our Nereis conversion.

Increase it to size Large and 2 hit dice but do not change its +1 natural armour, giving it AC11.

EDIT: Scrub that idea, give it +2 natural armour and drop its Dex two points to give it a +0 bonus. This worm should be slow and clumsy, relying on its agonizing venom for defence, not its bristles. :END EDIT

Reduce its bite attack to 1d2 damage.

Remove the burrow speed and change its movement rates to land 10 ft., swim 10 ft.

Remove the special abilities Hold Breath, Improved Grab and Swallow Whole.

Add a pain-causing poison to its Bristles special attack, I propose:Bristles (Ex): Any creature striking a eurythoe with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d4 points of piercing and slashing damage from the worm's bristles and is injected with an agonizing venom. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way.

_Agonizing venom_ - DC15 Fortitude save to resist, if the save fails the victim suffers wracking pains that impose a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks for 1 minute and then makes a secondary save, failing the secondary save results in the venom's effects lasting for 1d6  [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]10 minutes. Agonizing venom can be suppressed by the _delay poison_ spell or neutralized by the _remove poison_ spell, or similar effects. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.​


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

I don't like the secondary save for longer duration. I think the base duration should be longer, but there should be no secondary save.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I don't like the secondary save for longer duration. I think the base duration should be longer, but there should be no secondary save.




Funnily enough, that was how it went in my first draft but I thought I'd stick in a poison's primary/secondary effects. Hmm, how about giving it 10-60 minutes duration as a primary effect and Dex or Str damage as a secondary effect?
_Agonizing venom_ - DC15 Fortitude save to resist, if the initial save fails the victim suffers wracking pains that impose a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks for a duration of 1d6 [FONT=&quot]×[/FONT]10 minutes. One minute later they must make a secondary save or take [1d6 Dexterity?] damage. Agonizing venom can be suppressed by the _delay poison_ spell or neutralized by the _remove poison_ spell, or similar effects. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.​I like this better than the previous version.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

That's sort of weird, having the primary damage being an effect with a duration longer than when it takes the secondary damage, but... I like it. Agreed to Dex as secondary damage.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

Is the venom a poison?  If so, does it need the bit about delay and neutralize poison?  (Just bookkeeping here.)  But it looks pretty good.

CR 1?


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## Cleon (Jun 20, 2009)

freyar said:


> Is the venom a poison?  If so, does it need the bit about delay and neutralize poison?  (Just bookkeeping here.)  But it looks pretty good.
> 
> CR 1?




It's a poison, I only left the bit about spells in for the sake of explicitness, feel free to remove it if you think it's completely superfluous.

I guess I should have said "poison" in its description somewhere, just stick it in at the start:_Agonizing Venom:_ Poison, DC 15 Fortitude negates, initial damage wracking pains (imposing a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks and ability checks for a duration of 1d6 ×10 minutes), secondary damage 1d6 Dexterity. Agonizing venom can be suppressed by the delay poison spell or neutralized by the remove poison spell, or similar effects. The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.​Now I've been wondering whether we should reduce the bristle damage. Are these piercing spines or more like stinging hairs? If the latter, they may only do 1 point of damage or none at all. Checking the original description again, they do 1d2 damage, shall we change it to that?

Hmm, does that mean that I've undervalued its bite attack? A 1d4 bite seems more appropriate for a Large creature.

CR1 is about right, I guess. It's not much of a threat apart from its agonizing venom. A Eurythoe could be nasty when combined with monsters that are immune to its SA - imagine a sunken ship crawling with eurythoe and low-level undead.

A couple of points about the rest of the stats.

I don't believe Eurythoe have extending "necks", so it probably only has a 5 foot reach.

The Advancement is probably our standard for worms.*Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 HD (Huge)​According to my rough reckoning length and weight is something like.A typical mature eurythoe is 2 to 4 feet in diameter and 5 to 7 feet long, weighing between 300 and 1500 pounds.​That's assuming it scales evenly, a 2' diameter and 5' long specimen comes out as under the regular lower weight for Large but there's naught wrong with that, some Large SRD animals are under 500 pounds too (e.g. lions).

Oh, and its full attack line has a different bite damage to its attack line. Let's pick one and change the other. I'm thinking 1d4 bite now, as mentioned earlier.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2009)

Bristles are more like fine hairs. I'm okay with the one point of damage.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

Also ok with 1 point on the bristles.  And I like 1d4 for the bite.  5ft reach also ok.


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## Cleon (Jun 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Also ok with 1 point on the bristles.  And I like 1d4 for the bite.  5ft reach also ok.




So you two prefer 1 point bristles to the 1d2 of the original description? I'm OK either way, not that the higher damage is worth much.


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2009)

Cleon said:


> So you two prefer 1 point bristles to the 1d2 of the original description? I'm OK either way, not that the higher damage is worth much.



Oh, sorry, I thought we had them 1d2 and you proposed dropping to 1 pt.  I don't mind either way; I guess 1d2 if that's the original text.


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## Cleon (Jun 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Oh, sorry, I thought we had them 1d2 and you proposed dropping to 1 pt.  I don't mind either way; I guess 1d2 if that's the original text.




Actually, we hadn't changed the Eurythoe's bristle damage from the worm the special attack write-up had been copy & pasted from, so it's still at 1d4.

So, are we all OK on making its bristles 1d2?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 21, 2009)

1d2 is alright, I guess. I preferred one.


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## Cleon (Jun 21, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 1d2 is alright, I guess. I preferred one.




So we've got demiurge for 1 and freyar for 1d2.

I don't mind either way, as I said earlier. 1d2 matches the original, but 1 seems appropriate for a hair.

So shall we just leave it up to Shade?

Apart from the bristle damage the Eurythoe looks done, assuming we're all agreed on the CR1, *Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 HD (Huge) and "A typical mature eurythoe is 2 to 4 feet in diameter and 5 to 7 feet long, weighing between 300 and 1500 pounds."


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Let's go with 1 point.

Updated.

I revised the poison entry ever-so-slightly to make it look more like typical poison.

Anything left?


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

Looks pretty good!


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's go with 1 point.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> ...




Can't see anything missing and the stats are fine, so lets worm our way to Glycera, the blood worm. Looks like it should be a fairly straight forward conversion.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

*Glycera*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: //9" (3")
HIT DICE: 2-8
% IN LAIR: 95%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3 hp
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (2-3’ diameter; 10-20’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Also known as the “blood worm," the Glycera lurks within a system of galleries with multiple openings which it digs in sandy areas on the sea floor. Although blind, the Glycera ran sense even small pressure differences or vibrations near the gallery openings. When possible prey is detected, the Glycera sticks the end of its snout out of the burrow and squeezes out its long pharynx. The tip of the pharynx is armed with four small, sharp jaws which clasp onto the prey. As the worm pulls in the prey, venom is squeezed through the tips of the jaws. The venom is similar to that of the black widow spider, and causes paralysis within two rounds unless a saving throw vs. poison is made at +2.

The Glycera is exclusively carnivorous, feeding primarily on crustaceans and other worms (and the odd adventurer, of course). It is found on shallow sea floors from the tropics to the poles, but never in large numbers.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glycera_(genus)


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## freyar (Jun 23, 2009)

Sounds like tremorsense to me.

Base poison on monstrous spiders?


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2009)

freyar said:


> Sounds like tremorsense to me.
> 
> Base poison on monstrous spiders?




It causes paralysis so I'd say Dex damage poison like a Monstrous Centipede. I'd increase the damage to ~1d8 Dex or 2d6 Dex, since it can paralyze a creature in a round or two (AD&D rounds, hence minutes.

Definitely tremorsense.

As for the stats, how about taking our *Diopatra conversion* as an appropriate foundation and making some changes:

Increase NA to +4 to give it AC14.
Reduce bite damage to 1d4 or thereabouts.
Change Special Attacks by adding poison (1d8 Dex?) and removing Chew.
Add Blind to its Special Qualities (e.g. immune to visual illusions & gaze attacks).
Remove the treasure of its jaws.
Cut the Gargantuan off its advancement, leaving 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 (Huge).

That's probably all we need to stat a Glycera. The description will be slightly different, e.g. 10-20 feet long instead of 12-25, but that's all we need mechanically, although we could give it a little extra just to differentiate it from the other worms.

Maybe increase its tremorsense to 90 feet, or give it blindsight 30 ft. as well as tremorsense, or add Blind-Fight as a bonus feat?


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

I left the tremorsense standard for now, while we debate the merits of blindsight, Blind-Fight (B), and greater tremorsense.

I'd like to allow adavancement to Gargantuan, because the idea of truly immense bloodworms appeals to my dark side.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I left the tremorsense standard for now, while we debate the merits of blindsight, Blind-Fight (B), and greater tremorsense.
> 
> I'd like to allow adavancement to Gargantuan, because the idea of truly immense bloodworms appeals to my dark side.




Dark side? DMs don't have a dark side, we're noted for our sunny dispositions. Don't your players notice you smiling and laughing happily as their characters meet some new friends in a dungeon?

Anyhow, I don't mind 16HD Gargantuan bloodworms. I just thought we'd set a fourfold HD advancement as the standard, and the original was 2-8 HD.

Oh, and it looks like I've misled you a bit about the poison. When I typed 1d8/2d6 Dex I'd intended to suggest 1d8 or 2d6 as both initial and secondary (i.e 1d8/1d8 or 2d6/2d6), although serendipitously I quite like 1d8 initial and 2d6 secondary, so I'm happy to keep it.

Drop the darkvision, as it's blind, and I would cut the hold breath too.

May want to reduce the organization's size from 5-50, since the original no. appearing is only 1-3.

I can't see anything much to do with Glycera apart from description & weight. I was assuming the standard 500-4000 lbs for a Large creature.


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2009)

Yeah, I like the way the poison turned out as well.  

Stick with 1-3 appearing, or increase a bit?


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## Cleon (Jun 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I like the way the poison turned out as well.
> 
> Stick with 1-3 appearing, or increase a bit?




Well they use bloodworms as bait, don't they? So that would suggest they can be found in large numbers. I'll do a quick google...

...well it looks like even with declining populations there are still bloodworm harvesters who collect a thousand odd _Glycera dibranchiata_ in a tide. So we may be OK just leaving the 5-50 number in, although I think that's more having a lot of worms who happen to live in the same area, I don't believe they share burrow-systems with each other.

We could change the organization just to be different, make it "Solitary or population (2-40)", say.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

Whew, all those suggestions sound fine to me.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

Updated.

I think the poison is deadly enough to bump them to CR 2 or even 3.  They are almost as tough and dangerous as a CR 4 carrion crawler.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 25, 2009)

The poison is remarkably nasty, but they're going to have a hard time hitting and a fairly easy time being hit. CR 2.


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2009)

It looks like we've wrapped up the bloodworm.  Moving on...

*Sabella *
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: 2-4
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (1-3’ diameter; 5-7’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The Sabella feeds by filtering small particles out of the water with its fanlike tentacles. This worm is harmless; its only defense is to withdraw into its tube. When the worm has withdrawn, the tube might be mistaken for one of the Diopatra. These worms are common on the bottom in all habitats.

Peacock worm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2009)

Wow, that's remarkably boring.  Should we give them a weak slam and some natural armor to get them to CR 1/6?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 26, 2009)

Aw. I feel pity for these guys.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> I think the poison is deadly enough to bump them to CR 2 or even 3. They are almost as tough and dangerous as a CR 4 carrion crawler.






demiurge1138 said:


> The poison is remarkably nasty, but they're going to have a hard time hitting and a fairly easy time being hit. CR 2.




I agree with CR2. Carrion crawlers have multiple (8!) paralyzing attacks when full-attacking and have a considerably faster speed than bloodworms. That merits them having a much higher CR.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Wow, that's remarkably boring.  Should we give them a weak slam and some natural armor to get them to CR 1/6?




None of the Dragon magazine article's remaining worms are that interesting (in the "DMs don't have a dark side" form of _interesting _) The most menacing ability any of the unconverted worms has is entangling things with its tentacles.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Wow, that's remarkably boring.  Should we give them a weak slam and some natural armor to get them to CR 1/6?




I'm thinking they'd be more likely to have high Dex (14-15?) to give them their AC rather than natural armour, so they have better reflexes to retreat into their tubes. Maybe even Improved Initiative as a bonus feat - fan worms can dart back into their tubes with lightning speed.

I'd vote against a slam attack, as real-world _Sabella_ have no offensive ability.

Many _Sabella_ have poisonous flesh to discourage predators. Maybe we could expand that to become a poisonous slime on their tentacles, which they get a melee touch attack that inflicts a mild but painful toxin, and have the same effect on anything that touches them in turn, with a greater effect to anything that eats them?


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2009)

These guys are set dressing, aren't they?

I suppose they could become the "gas spores" of the bristle worms, looking like something scarier.

The poison idea is doable.

I wonder if this could be extrapolated into something deadlier when they reach "gigantic" sizes?

"A feeding peacock worm…has a fan of radiating tentacles fringed with fine filaments to sieve food particles from the water currents."

Maybe a dessication effect similar to a toned-down horrid wilting with a touch attack, as nutrients are sucked from a creature's body?


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2009)

I like the poison flesh, though still fairly weak.  I guess if the PCs have nothing else to eat for miles and miles....

The tentacle idea is interesting.  Maybe even something like blood drain.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2009)

Shade said:


> These guys are set dressing, aren't they?
> 
> I suppose they could become the "gas spores" of the bristle worms, looking like something scarier.
> 
> ...




Don't care for the dessication effect. Fan worms don't suck the juices out of their food via their tentacles, they just swallow them. _Horrid wilting_ touch seems a bit too fantastic and effective an attack, even if toned down.

Instead of that, how about a Colossal Carnivorous Sabella? A fan worm so titanic than human-sized objects are "small particles" to sieze from the water currents. It could have 40 to 60 foot long tentacles, then careless folk could mistake its entangling tendrils for the harmless _Terebella_, the next worm in the article, making the latter the gas spore of the worm world.

We could also stat up a regular "mostly harmless" giant Sabella, with or without poisonous flesh.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 27, 2009)

No to wilting, but the colossal version is kind of cool.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> No to wilting, but the colossal version is kind of cool.




Shall we do both then? Just to get us off the seafloor, I'll start with some proposed rough stats for the regular poison-fleshed giant Sabella.

Medium Vermin
Hit Dice: 2d8 (9 hp) [_That suggests the Colossal version is 32 Hit Dice!_]
Initiative: +2
Speed: 0 (immobile)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10
Base Attack: +1/+1
Attack: Tentacles +3 touch (poison) or slam +1 melee (1d3)
Full: Tentacles +3 touch (poison) and slam -4 melee (1d3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Poison tentacles
Special Qualities: Armoured tube, accelerated healing, darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: +1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 15, Con 11, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 5
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Large)

I'm thinking if a Sabella retreats into its *Armoured Tube* it can't use its slam attack but can still flail out with its venomous tentacles and gets DR X/— and maybe an armour bonus. I'd give it the better of its Str or Dex bonus to its *Poison Tentacles* touch attack.

Does that look about right?


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2009)

I thought we were not going with the slam and that the poison was not the result of the tentacle but if something eats it (or hits with a bite attack), right?

I like the Colossal idea.


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2009)

freyar said:


> I thought we were not going with the slam and that the poison was not the result of the tentacle but if something eats it (or hits with a bite attack), right?
> 
> I like the Colossal idea.




I thought I'd rough out a "Deadly" version of the giant peacock worm, which actually poses some (small) threat to PCs. The regular giant Sabella will have no attacks & mildly toxic flesh. I don't mind dropping the slam, but it needs some means to harm adventurers, in the great tradition of "D&Dized" giant animals. Stinging or poisonous tentacles seemed a biologically inaccurate but thematically appropriate solution. Maybe its grandma had a fling with a sea anemone?


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

We can probably skip the smaller version (we have enough worms in that size range already!) and jump right to the "titanic" version.


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2009)

Straight to Colossal with a little oomph works for me.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2009)

Here's the stat range we came up with at the beginning of this project for a worm of this size:

Colossal: Str 42-43, Dex 6-9, Con 26-29, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 5


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Str 42, Dex 9, Con 28, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 5 ?


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> Str 42, Dex 9, Con 28, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 5 ?




I'd give it a a higher Dex (13?) and lower Con (26?), since peacock worms have lightning reactions but are fragile outside their shells. Upsizing & expanding from my proposed stats in post #916 I suggest:

Colossal Vermin
Hit Dice: 32d8+256 (400 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 0 (immobile)
Armor Class: ?? (-8 size, +2 Dex, +?? natural), touch 4, flat-footed ??
Base Attack: +24/+1
Attack: Tentacle +32 touch (1d4+8 plus poison?) or bite +27 melee (2d6+8)
Full: 8 tentacles +32 touch (1d4+8 plus poison?) and bite +27 melee (2d6+8)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. (60 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: chew (2d6+16), improved grab, poison, swallow whole, tentacles
Special Qualities: Armoured tube, accelerated healing, darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +26, Dex +19, Will +9
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 13, Con 26, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 5
Advancement: 33-64 HD (Colossal)

I think it will have lots of tentacle attacks with which it grabs its "food particles and sticks them in its mouth to chew & swallow. May only be able to swallow Medium-sized or smaller creatures. The tentacles SA is because I fancy it having up to 8 Attacks of Opportunity with its tentacles, like a Hydra can make one AoO per head with its Combat Reflexes despite it not having very high Dex.

As for AC, I'm divided. Its body may be soft but it uses its tube to protect itself. So it may have quite a high NA, or even armour or DR.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Those ability scores are fine.  Since this is a big version of something wimpy, I don't want to go too far with the attacks.  Let's drop chew and not allow 8 AoOs.  Poison maybe as one of those weird defensive abilities that only affects people who bite it.

As for natural armor, what about low natural armor, but it gets a boost to AC or cover of some type when in its tube?


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## Cleon (Jul 1, 2009)

freyar said:


> Those ability scores are fine.  Since this is a big version of something wimpy, I don't want to go too far with the attacks.  Let's drop chew and not allow 8 AoOs.  Poison maybe as one of those weird defensive abilities that only affects people who bite it.
> 
> As for natural armor, what about low natural armor, but it gets a boost to AC or cover of some type when in its tube?




But I like the AoOs. 

Well if nobody else cares for the idea, we could give it Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.

Don't mind making the poison only affect creatures that use bite attacks against it. We can drop the chew and the bite if you like, and just have it do chew-level damage after a successful Swallow Whole attack. It'd be simpler.

I imagine it fighting with most of its body inside the tube, so it would get a fair defensive bonus normally which improves when it "withdraws". NA/DR/cover are all options worth considering. This thing probably has a tube a cubit or two feet thick, so it should offer fair protection.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 1, 2009)

Yeah, I agree with freyar. This doesn't have to be super-powerful, and agreed to not having one AoO per tentacle. Also, I don't like that the tentacles are touch attacks, but still have full Str to damage behind them. I would prefer real attacks, but if we keep touch, they should be grapple only.


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## freyar (Jul 1, 2009)

Grapple only touch attacks is a nice idea, but I think the consensus would be regular melee attacks.


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## Shade (Jul 1, 2009)

I'd prefer standard tentacles, no super-AoOs.

I see these things as little more than a giant hazard, not a combat machine.


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## Cleon (Jul 2, 2009)

All right, I'll give. It appears no-one else fancies a hydra-inspired version.

So, the consensus appears to be touch with grapple/entangle for the tentacles rather than, say, standard melee with half damage bonus.

Shall we still give it Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat?

Oh yes, the number of tentacle attacks was plucked out of thin air, since I couldn't remember how many fan-worms have, apart from "lots". They have two fans of tentacles, *each with dozens of the things*. I ended up picking 8 in homage to the classic Carrion Crawler.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

Cleon, I though the consensus was standard tentacle/grapple attacks (rather than touch attacks).

I'm fine with Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.

8 tentacles seems reasonable.  Its huge reach and Combat Reflexes can serve as a reasonable approximation for additional tentacles.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 2, 2009)

We've all been saying, actually "I personally prefer touch grapples, but I assume everyone else would prefer standard attacks". Which is pretty funny.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2009)

That is funny.  Touch tentacles it is!


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> We've all been saying, actually "I personally prefer touch grapples, but I assume everyone else would prefer standard attacks". Which is pretty funny.




Show me on this doll where the Sabella touched your player character.

Sorry about that.

So, we seem to have reached a consensus, the new cut-down Titanic Peacock Worm looks something like this:

Colossal Vermin
Hit Dice: 32d8+256 (400 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 0 (immobile)
Armor Class: ?? (-8 size, +2 Dex, +?? natural), touch 4, flat-footed ??
Base Attack: +24/+56
Attack: Tentacle +32 touch (grapple)
Full Attack: 8 tentacles +32 touch (grapple)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. (60 ft. with tentacles)
Special Attacks: improved grab, poison, swallow whole, tentacles
Special Qualities: Armoured tube, accelerated healing, darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +26, Dex +19, Will +9
Feats: Combat Reflexes (B)
Abilities: Str 42, Dex 13, Con 26, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 5
Advancement: 33-64 HD (Colossal)

I'm thinking it has a *lot* of tentacles (say total number = HD), but can only attack with eight as a full-attack. It usually takes -20 on its grapple to hold multiple small prey (indeed it won't attack large prey, since their too big to swallow). Opponents can probably cut through its tentacles fairly easily (~12 hit points per tentacle, from 1d8+8 for its average HD) but damage to tentacles does not harm the body. Its swallow whole is restricted to fine particles (say, up to Medium?) and probably does damage around 2d6+16 or 2d8+16 plus acid.

I'd be tempted to give it blindsense or something similar to let it "feel" its surrounding.

Not 100% decided on the Swallow Whole. That's 4 steps smaller than its size, so I'd be willing to consider making it 3 steps and Large.

The Armoured Tube and Poison abilities are the main problems we have to work out.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2009)

Blindsense/sight makes perfect sense to me.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2009)

Are these things aquatic?  In that case, tremorsense makes blindsight/sense redundant.  But if not, I prefer blindsense (even though it's a little redundant).

Did we have agreement on whether it delivers the poison with an attack or if it's passive?

I personally prefer cover when it's in the tube.


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Did we have agreement on whether it delivers the poison with an attack or if it's passive?




Don't think we've settled it, but the leaning seems to be towards a passive poison that only works when something bites it.

I would'nt mind a coating of contact poison on its body & tentacles.

Could we have a show of hands/tentacles/pseudopods for which poison people prefer?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2009)

I prefer passive poison.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2009)

Prefer passive only, but I wouldn't oppose a weaker contact poison on the tentacles, I guess.


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## Cleon (Jul 4, 2009)

freyar said:


> Prefer passive only, but I wouldn't oppose a weaker contact poison on the tentacles, I guess.




OK, we seem to be agreed on the passive poison, now what about its effects?

Since it is an adaptation to discourage animals from eating the Sabella, how about it causes sickness or nausea? Say, sickened as an initial effect, nauseated as a secondary effect. Could throw in a bit of ability damage as well, maybe Strength or Constitution?


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2009)

Yeah, that sounds about right.  We've had monsters with poison like this before, but I can't remember specifically which ones.  Anyway, sickened primary with nauseated and 1d2 or 1d4 Con damage secondary sounds reasonable to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2009)

How about we split the difference with 1d3 Con? I like the sickened/nauseated idea.


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2009)

Sure!  Someone can come up with better names than this, maybe (or clean up the wording):

Poison Flesh (Ex): Any creature that eats the Sabella or makes a successful bite attack against one exposes itself to the Sabella's poison

Sabella Poison (Ex): Ingested, Fortitude DC X, initial damage sickened, secondary damage 1d3 Con and nauseated.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Cleon (Jul 5, 2009)

That looks good to me. We'll need a duration for the sickened / nauseated effect. Here's how I'd clean it up:
*Poisonous Flesh (Ex):* Any creature that makes a successful bite attack against a Sabella or eats its flesh is exposed to the Sabella's poison.

_ *Sabella Poison:* Ingested, Fortitude DC 34, initial damage sickened for X minutes, secondary damage 1d3 Con and nauseated for Y minutes. The save DC is Constitution-based._​How about the sickness and nausea both last 1-3 minutes? (4d6+6 rounds, giving a range of 10-30?)


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2009)

Oh, right, duration!   4d6+6 rounds is ok by me.  Or we could just say 1d3 minutes.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 5, 2009)

1d3 minutes is way cleaner.


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Was a decision ever reach on blindsense vs. tremorsense?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 6, 2009)

Tremorsense is just stuff touching the ground. Blindsense is pretty much the standard for vibration-through-water senses, like a shark's.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 6, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> 1d3 minutes is way cleaner.




I preferred a smooth progression to the 10 round / 20 round / 30 round steps we'd get if we rolled whole minutes, but it's easy enough to add a little variation back in.



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Was a decision ever reach on blindsense vs. tremorsense?




Blindsense or blindsight seem the way to go, as demiurge says.

What range shall we give it? It's got a 60 foot reach, so I would think at least that far.

Blindsight 60 feet? 

As for the stats, I don't think we've decided on whether it can swallow Large creatures or just Medium, and we should probably increase the hit point threshold for the victim to cut their way out. It's got an awful lot of hp, after all.

Oh, and I think we should drop Split. I don't believe Sabella is noted for an ability to survive bisection.


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Blindsense or even blindsight (of the two, I like blindsense better for this, I think) is ok, but I like tremorsense even better.  Tremorsense for aquatic creatures specifically includes vibrations in water per the SRD; blindsense for the shark seems like an extension of its keen scent.

It should certainly swallow Large and probably even Huge critters!  Before hp needed to cut out, though, we should probably pick natural armor.  +20 or so?  What do we get advancing our other worms to Colossal?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

I did not know this about tremorsense. We should put something in the combat paragraph or something to clarify this bit of rules oddity for others as well.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2009)

freyar said:


> Blindsense or even blindsight (of the two, I like blindsense better for this, I think) is ok, but I like tremorsense even better.  Tremorsense for aquatic creatures specifically includes vibrations in water per the SRD; blindsense for the shark seems like an extension of its keen scent.




Yes, I know. To quote the SRD "Aquatic creatures with tremorsense can also sense the location of creatures moving through water."

Maybe its tremorsense works through water but not the ground? I once did a "reimagining" of the SRD crocodiles which could feel the movement of prey in water (like real-life crocodilians can).

I called it *Ripplesense*.



freyar said:


> It should certainly swallow Large and probably even Huge critters!




I was thinking that it can only swallow objects that are miniscule compared to itself. A Huge swallow whole is two steps, which is the level of creatures with a big head & throat such as Tyrannosaurus. I prefer 3 (Large) or even 4 (Medium) size differences, so it is swallowing "small particles".

I'd favour Large, since it means that human-sized PCs can't just use the enlarge person spell to make themselves immune from swallowing.



freyar said:


> Before hp needed to cut out, though, we should probably pick natural armor. +20 or so? What do we get advancing our other worms to Colossal?




Well, standard Large to Colossal advancement increases NA by 12, which suggests +15 or so. It may have a hefty bonus for its tube, though, so would be happy to consider +20 or even more.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Let's stick with standard tremorsense.  They are in contact with the ground via their tube, after all.  

I also concur with Demiurge that we should note the aquatic uses of tremorsense in the text, as I think most people aren't aware of this mechanic (or forget it, like me).

As for natural armor, the century worm (Gargantuan) has +25 and the luncent worm (also G) has +18.  Raising them to Colossal would yield +30 and +23 respectively.  So +20 is well within reason.

I'm fine with sticking with Large for the swallow whole.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's stick with standard tremorsense.  They are in contact with the ground via their tube, after all.
> 
> I also concur with Demiurge that we should note the aquatic uses of tremorsense in the text, as I think most people aren't aware of this mechanic (or forget it, like me).




Fine by me



Shade said:


> As for natural armor, the century worm (Gargantuan) has +25 and the luncent worm (also G) has +18.  Raising them to Colossal would yield +30 and +23 respectively.  So +20 is well within reason.
> 
> I'm fine with sticking with Large for the swallow whole.




Hmm, or +20 natural armour outside its tube, boosted to +30 NA when withdrawn? We still haven't decided what to do with its armoured tube.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

Simple. It can flee into its armored tube to gain the benefits of full cover.


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Agreed with full cover in the tube.  If you want, we can specify hardness and hp for the tube, though.


----------



## Shade (Jul 7, 2009)

Simple and elegant.  I like!   Hardness and hp for the tube makes sense.  Suggestions?


----------



## freyar (Jul 7, 2009)

Stone is hardness 8, but the tube is probably limestone-ish, which should logically be a little less hard than other stone.  Hardness 7?  Stone is 15 hp/inch. How thick should this be?  Up to 6 inches?

Alternately we could keep hardness 8 and go low on the hp.  Maybe that makes the most sense.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2009)

I like hardness 7, 90 hp.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 7, 2009)

freyar said:


> Stone is hardness 8, but the tube is probably limestone-ish, which should logically be a little less hard than other stone.  Hardness 7?  Stone is 15 hp/inch. How thick should this be?  Up to 6 inches?
> 
> Alternately we could keep hardness 8 and go low on the hp.  Maybe that makes the most sense.




I'll vote for hardness 8, like regular stone.

As for hit points, I was thinking it would be a foot or two thick, with the worm some 10 feet in diameter, since I'm assuming it's twice the dimensions of a Purple Worm. So, how about giving the tube some fraction of the worm's hps, say 25% of 50%? As an average Titanic Sabella has 400 hp, that's an armoured tube with 100 or 200 hit points.


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

Not enough gradations of stone!  If we say it's a foot thick and 90 or 100 hp, that's reasonable for limestone, I guess, but much more and it's like granite!  Any sourcebook have different kinds of rock? 

I'm still divided on hardness 7 vs 8.  But I want it weaker than regular stone in some way.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2009)

I still like 90 or 100 hp, hardness 7.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 8, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I still like 90 or 100 hp, hardness 7.




OK, shall we compromise with 100 hit points (25% worm's hp) and hardness 7?

I'd also say the tube will be over a foot thick, based on the SRD stats for a masonry wall (a 1' thick masonry wall being 90 hp and hardness 8, making 7.5 hp/inch). The 15 hp/inch previously mentioned for stone is for solid rock, and the tube made of bits and pieces glued together so masonry seems a better comparison.


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

That sounds fair to me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

Looks good.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 16?   A purple worm increased to Colossal and 32 HD would be CR 19, but it has magical beast HD and a much deadlier poison.

Another thought.  Should we add the usual "severing a tentacle" text from the giant octopus?


----------



## freyar (Jul 8, 2009)

CR 16 is ok.  

Were we going to drop split?

Anyone know if there's reason for another organization?  These are so big that only solitary kind of makes sense.

Severing a tentacle makes sense.  Let them grow back in 8 hours?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> CR 16 is ok.
> 
> Were we going to drop split?
> 
> ...




I've already said we should drop Split.

In real life, Sabella often live in colonies with a large number of fan worms, in the "hundreds and thousands" kind of large. So, I would think we should allow for encounters with more than one. Say organization solitary or grove (2-12).

Challenge rating 16 seems a bit high to me. Sure, it's got a lot of hit points, but it's an immobile target. Maybe 14-15?

EDIT: The SRD Kraken is Challenge Rating 12 and is roughly comparable (AC 23 vs 20, hp 400 vs 290, 60' reach with tentacles) It's got a much worse BAB & Grapple, but the jump from +28 melee & +44 grapple to +32  touch and +56 grapple isn't going to make much difference, it's most likely to change a 90% hit to a 95% hit or something. More important is that a Kraken is mobile, does damage with its attacks and has a good Will save and some magic.

Comparisonwise, that makes the giant Sabella look more like a 13-14 to me.

Any thoughts? Is it just that the kraken is woefully under-CR'd?
:END EDIT

Finally, I wanted to have a "severing the tentacles" bit, didn't I mention it? Using an adaptation of the Kraken or Giant Squid seems the easy way to go, something like:A giant sabella has a number of tentacles equal to its hit dice, but can only use 8 of them in a full-round attack. An opponent can make sunder attempts against the sabella's tentacles as if they were weapons, each tentacles has 20 hit points. If the giant sabella is currently grappling a target with one tentacle, it usually uses another tentacle to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a giant sabella’s tentacle deals damage to the sabella equal to half the limb’s full normal hit points, the severed tentacle regrows in 1d6+6 hours. A sabella usually withdraws from combat if it loses more than half its tentacles.​


----------



## Cleon (Jul 8, 2009)

Shade said:


> Looks good.
> 
> Updated.




Didn't you like the idea of giving the tube hit points equal to 25% of the Sabella's instead of a flat number?

Also, I thought we were adding Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat.

Apart from that, it looks like we've just got size / weight left. A Purple Worm is 5' thick, 80' long and 40,000 pounds. How about 10' thick, 120' long (not including 60' tentacles) and 320,000 pounds. That 160 tons would not include the weight of its tube, which I reckon probably weighs more than the worm itself.


----------



## Shade (Jul 8, 2009)

Dropping split is fine with me.

I'm impartial to the tube being a factor of the sabella's hit points.  A flat 100 points seems just as good to me.   But I can be swayed.  

Honestly, the weight is probably not important for a multitude of reasons.  Your suggestions for size are good.

The org you suggested seems plausible.

The CR is tricky.  The issue I have with it is that with the tentacles being touch attacks, it has very little chance of ever missing.  Add to that the high grapple modifier, and its almost a guaranteed swallow whole with each strike (unless the ridiculously overpowered freedom of movement is in play...which it will be).


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2009)

I prefer a flat 100 hp. A burlier worm isn't necessarily going to build a better tube. The CR is an issue, immobility vs. grapple monster... 14 seems to be a workable compromise.


----------



## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

Let's go with CR 14, I guess.  It would use up about all of a party's likely freedom of movement slots, anyway, at that level.

I'm also ambivalent on the tube hp.  Since the tube is made of sand with mucus, I'd guess that most of the hp and hardness come from the sand, which would argue that the hp are static.  But maybe you can convince me that the advanced Sabella should make thicker tubes.

Incidentally, we should probably specify when they go hide in their tube in the tactics section.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Dropping split is fine with me.
> 
> I'm impartial to the tube being a factor of the sabella's hit points.  A flat 100 points seems just as good to me.   But I can be swayed.




Look me in the eyes,
you are feeling sleepy,
You think tube hit points proportional to worm hit points is a *good* idea.
What, this isn't working.
Dang _mind blank_ spells.



Shade said:


> The CR is tricky.  The issue I have with it is that with the tentacles being touch attacks, it has very little chance of ever missing.  Add to that the high grapple modifier, and its almost a guaranteed swallow whole with each strike (unless the ridiculously overpowered freedom of movement is in play...which it will be).




Well, I was assuming the Sabella's tentacles worked a bit like a roper's strands, so it would take a few rounds to drag its victims to its mouth, giving them a chance to slice off a tentacle or two. Makes for a more dynamic combat if it drags its prey 10 or 20 feet closer each round.

Unfortunately, I forgot to mention that.

Besides, being swallowed by the thing isn't that bad, the Swallow Whole doesn't do a lot of damage. I would think about increasing the number of creatures it can swallow though, it is Colossal, after all.

Four times a Gargantuan Purple Worm's capacity? i.e. "A Sabella’s interior can hold 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small or 512 Tiny or smaller opponents." Although I can see an argument for just doubling it to 4/16/64/256.


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

Let's stick with 100 hp for the tube, go with CR 14, and Cleon's suggested doubling of the number of swallowed foes.

Updated.

Did we ever determine swallow whole damage?

Anyone want to tackle description and tactics?


----------



## freyar (Jul 9, 2009)

A quick survey of big CR 12+ critters suggests that swallow whole crushing damage is usually 2d8+Str (or even 1/2 Str), with some similar constrict damages.  Since swallow whole is Sabella's only way to inflict damage, let's boost that a little to 3d8+Str and 1d8+Con acid (acid varies between flat numbers and rolled numbers, and I like my dice!).


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2009)

I like.  Any objections?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 10, 2009)

I like it too.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> A quick survey of big CR 12+ critters suggests that swallow whole crushing damage is usually 2d8+Str (or even 1/2 Str), with some similar constrict damages.  Since swallow whole is Sabella's only way to inflict damage, let's boost that a little to 3d8+Str and 1d8+Con acid (acid varies between flat numbers and rolled numbers, and I like my dice!).




I was going to go for 2d8+16 crushing but have no objection to 3d8.

1d8+8 acid damage is fine by me.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 10, 2009)

So, does anyone have any response to my suggestion that its tentacles drag prey X feet per round towards its mouth, similar to a roper's strands?


----------



## freyar (Jul 10, 2009)

I have to say that I favor regular Imp Grab/Swallow Whole here.  The roper's strands are a ranged attack, while Sabella's tentacles are just long reach melee attacks.  Plus these need to get things swallowed quickly to be any threat at all.


----------



## Shade (Jul 10, 2009)

What freyar said.  

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> I have to say that I favor regular Imp Grab/Swallow Whole here.  The roper's strands are a ranged attack, while Sabella's tentacles are just long reach melee attacks.  Plus these need to get things swallowed quickly to be any threat at all.




Well roper strands may be a ranged attack but they don't have a range increment, so there's little effective difference between a 50' ranged touch and a melee touch with a 50' reach, apart from the Attack of Opportunity.

Still, if neither of you backs the idea we'll just cut it.

That means it's about done, then. All that we are missing is tactics, which should be fairly simple. Something like:These worms are mindless, fighting purely on instinct. A Sabella tries to seize any object within reach that is small enough to swallow, spitting them out or cementing them into their armoured tube if they prove inedible. If they take more than three-quarters damage (300 hp) or lose more than half their tentacles they retreat into their tubes.​Also, I was wondering about adding some incidental treasure. Being sessile, any valuables of their victims may be scattered around their lair or cemented into their tubes. There won't be any cloth, leather or wooden items in the treasure, since those would be digested by the worm's stomach acids.

How about the following:*Treasure:* 1/10th coins; 25% goods; 25% items (only non-organic treasure)​


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2009)

The tactics and treasure look good to me!

The difference I see between the roper and the sabella is that the sabella is much bigger.  And the tentacles are melee attacks, so the sabella should be able to pull them back basically instantly.  It's like this: if I have a 10 ft pole or javelin, I can pull back something stuck to it quickly by lifing the pole.  OTOH, if I have an arrow tied to a string, it takes me a little longer just to pull the string.


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (Jul 13, 2009)

Think so.


----------



## Leopold (Jul 13, 2009)

Finished, nothing to add on them.


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2009)

*Terebella*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: 3-10
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (see below)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

The Terebella is a fat, short worm with a jumble of stringy tentacles extending out of its head. The 5’ body is concealed in a tube, while the tentacles may extend up to 40’ in all directions. These tentacles feel for small objects, which are then transported back to the mouth along a ciliated groove in the tentacle. At the mouth, the objects are sorted; edible items are ingested, and the others are dumped in a pile near the tube. When prodded, this worm withdraws into its tube, while slowly retracting its tentacles.

Worms of this type are relatively harmless, although a character might become entangled within the tentacles for 1-4 rounds. Coins are occasionally found in the pile of discarded rubble near the mouth of the tube (8% chance of 1d20 gp). A large concentration of coins might indicate the presence of a buried shipwreck nearby.

Terebellidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Terebellidae: Definition with Terebellidae Pictures and Photos
Spaghetti Worm - Eupolymnia crassicornis
European Marine Life - Photo of Terebella lapidaria - # - Annelid Biology
Fan-worm - Terebella conchilega


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2009)

freyar said:


> The tactics and treasure look good to me!
> 
> The difference I see between the roper and the sabella is that the sabella is much bigger.  And the tentacles are melee attacks, so the sabella should be able to pull them back basically instantly.  It's like this: if I have a 10 ft pole or javelin, I can pull back something stuck to it quickly by lifing the pole.  OTOH, if I have an arrow tied to a string, it takes me a little longer just to pull the string.




I don't mind giving it nigh-instantaneous swallow attempts.

Although I think that analogy is flawed. It'd be easier eating something stuck on an arrow and a 10' piece of string than a 10' javelin. Lifting the javelin wouldn't bring the point any closer to your mouth, you have to pull in the shaft to get the point near your head, and maybe turn the whole thing around. In any case, the lighter, shorter arrow would be easier to manoeuvre.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> All done?




Looks done, except I missed out a couple of commas from the tactics section, as follows:
If they take more than three-quarters damage (300 hp)*,* or lose more than half their tentacles*,* they retreat into their tubes.​


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> *Terebella*




Looks like a non-combat scenery creature to me. Apart from the possibility of it having a chemical defence it doesn't have much going for it.

The long tentacles could entangle the PCs as they're menaced by another monster, I guess, or be mistaken for a Sabella.


----------



## Rappy (Jul 14, 2009)

I agree. The terebella looks more like a hazard than a full monster.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Again, terebella = dungeon dressing.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

Do we want to work it up as a hazard, or simply move on?


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

I say move on.


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2009)

*PECTINARIA*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: //1”
HIT DICE: 2-6
% IN LAIR: 0%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: M (see below)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

This peculiar worm is sometimes called the “ice-cream-cone worm.” It constructs a portable, conical tube by cementing small pebbles together into one all-encompassing layer. The cone may be up to 5’ long and 2-2½' wide at the mouth. The worm lives head-down in the sand, with only the upper 1’ of the cone protruding from the surface. The Pectinaria sorts through the sand with golden, fan-shaped bristles, ingesting organic debris as it does so. There is a 5% chance that the Pectinaria will have cemented 1d6 precious or semiprecious stones into its cone. The golden bristles are also of value to magic-users and to some primitive tribes, although the value of these items varies widely. The Pectinaria is found only in shallow water, buried in loose sand.

Pectinariidae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pectinaria_(worm)


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## Rappy (Jul 14, 2009)

Wow, this poor fellow doesn't have it much better.  I'd say this one can be chalked down as a dressing as well, especially since it is little more than a treasure hoard.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2009)

Agreed to dungeon dressing. It's treasure for areas with lots of creatures that have no treasure.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Again, terebella = dungeon dressing.




So, shall we bother giving it a few stats. If the SRD can include the Shrieker, we can do out own submarine dungeon dressing.

The only significant ability mentioned is its entangling tentacles, but I'd give it a watered-down version of a Sabella's poisonous flesh as well, to give it _some_ protection from predators.

Large Vermin
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (hp 19)
Speed: 0 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (40 ft. tentacles?)
Special Attacks: Entangling tentacles, poisonous flesh
Special Qualities: Accelerated healing, tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref+4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 13, Con 15, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 2

I'm thinking its entangling tentacles would trap everything within 40 feet that fail a Reflex save, probably Strength-based so DC13.

It could also make a 40' range touch attack and then grapple, but I think it wouldn't get Improved Grab since it basically waits for food to drift to it on the currents, so its tentacles are not built for whipping around prey like our monstrous version of the Sabella.

If we do give it poisonous flesh, I'd suggest something like 1d3 minutes of sickened for primary effect, 1d3 Strength damage for secondary effect. Assuming any of the PCs actually bite it.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Jul 15, 2009)

Cleon... none of us want to stat these guys. Except, it appears, you. We've already moved on. 

To another giant useless worm, mind you.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Cleon... none of us want to stat these guys. Except, it appears, you. We've already moved on.
> 
> To another giant useless worm, mind you.




Sorry, hadn't realized no-one else wanted to address it. I would give Terebella a paragraph or two of description, just for the sake of completeness.

I think the Terebella is marginally more useful than the Pectinaria, at least it's got entangling tentacles so can serve as an obstacle to add to the difficulty of an encounter with a nastier beastie. (E.g. a band of monster X can have a few of these outside the entrance to their lair, and attack intruders as they are tangled up in them).

But if no-one fancies even that much we can just move on. The Pectinaria doesn't look worth converting to me, and it's the last of the _*Dragon 133*_ article's worms.

Anyone got a suggestion for what real-world beasties to do next?


----------



## Shade (Jul 15, 2009)

We could pick from these...

Chimpanzee [Dungeon #56]
Dingo [Dragon #186]
Dog, Wild [Monstrous Manual]
Gopher [Monstrous Compendium Volume Two]
Gorilla [Monstrous Manual]
Hart [Dragon #137]
Hippopotamus, Pygmy [Dungeon #56]
Horse, Riding [Monstrous Manual]
Horse, Wild [Monstrous Manual]
Morena [Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four]
Muskrat [Monstrous Compendium Volume Two]
Octopus, Deep-Dwelling [Dragon #190]
Opossum [Monstrous Compendium Volume Two]
Porcupine, Black [Monstrous Compendium Volume Two]
Porcupine, Brown [Monstrous Compendium Volume Two]
Ray, Electric [Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Four]
Ray, Sawfish [Dragon #116]
Stag, Wild [Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two]
Woodchuck [Monstrous Compendium Volume Two]

...or continue down the vermin path with some of the unsual spiders from Dragon #67 or the giant versions of micro-organisms in Dragon #111.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> We could pick from these...
> 
> Chimpanzee [Dungeon #56]
> Dingo [Dragon #186]
> ...




Not very many of those vertebrates look terribly interesting to me, although I am tempted by converting the Chimpanzee.

I'm doing my own conversion of some of Dragon magazine's arachnids, but I'm going the fantasy magical beast route so there's no conflict with a "realistic" version stated as Monstrous Vermin.

So, I'll vote for tackling the arachnids or the micro-organisms, I don't mind which.

If we didn't already have good conversions of the *Cambrian explosion fauna from Dragon #204* I'd have suggested doing them.


----------



## Rappy (Jul 15, 2009)

The chimpanzee already has official _WoTC_ stats in the Menace Manual, which is relevant despite being a _d20 Modern_ book; it's not too hard to convert between the two.

I'd vote for the deep octopus myself, since I have a love of cephalopods.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 16, 2009)

Rappy said:


> The chimpanzee already has official _WoTC_ stats in the Menace Manual, which is relevant despite being a _d20 Modern_ book; it's not too hard to convert between the two.




Yes, but I don't much care for that version.

A chimp should have a higher strength than the 15 the Menace Manual gives it (I calculate it should be somewhere in the region of Str 20-25) and I think it deserves at least 2 Hit Dice. I'm also dubious about them being Small, considering an average sized chimp weighs in the region of 100 pounds and even a small female is rarely under 60 pounds. Plus, the SRD baboon is Medium sized, so a chimp should be to. Admittedly that's a dang big baboon! (90 pounds is toward the upper limit of a real world baboon's weight. I'd prefer to make baboons Small and chimps Medium.)

Oh, and chimpanzees should have a racial penalty to Swim checks.

If we do chimps we might as well stat up gorillas as well, although the SRD Ape would do in a pinch.



Rappy said:


> I'd vote for the deep octopus myself, since I have a love of cephalopods.




Well what person of taste doesn't love cephalopods?

Well the deep octopus would continue our aquatic theme, we could follow it up with the electric ray and sawfish.


----------



## Rappy (Jul 16, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yes, but I don't much care for that version.
> 
> A chimp should have a higher strength than the 15 the Menace Manual gives it (I calculate it should be somewhere in the region of Str 20-25) and I think it deserves at least 2 Hit Dice. I'm also dubious about them being Small, considering an average sized chimp weighs in the region of 100 pounds and even a small female is rarely under 60 pounds. Plus, the SRD baboon is Medium sized, so a chimp should be to. Admittedly that's a dang big baboon! (90 pounds is toward the upper limit of a real world baboon's weight. I'd prefer to make baboons Small and chimps Medium.)
> 
> ...



Well then, we can try the chimp...preferredly alongside the gorilla, as you said. More fun than a barrel full of primates. 



> Well what person of taste doesn't love cephalopods?
> 
> Well the deep octopus would continue our aquatic theme, we could follow it up with the electric ray and sawfish.



Aww, I'm flattered that you find me in good taste.  And yes, if we do the octopus it would make sense to continue with the skates and rays presented.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2009)

I like the idea of building a better chimp.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2009)

*Chimpanzee*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Jungle
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Troop
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Ominivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 5-20
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 12,Climb 9
HIT DICE: 2
THACO: 19
NO. ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-2/1-2/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
MORALE: Unsteady (5-7)
XP VALUE: 65

These are small apes that live in troops dominated by the largest male (15-16 hp).  They look comical, but adults are irritable and aggressive.  Chimps have tan or brown skin, black hair, and long canine teeth; they eat meat as well as plants.  They are mature at eight years, and can live up to 40 years.  The largest males reach 5’ tall and weigh 175 lbs.

Chimps fight with their hands and teeth, but usually flee from danger into the trees.  They will not attack large groups of humans.  However, lone humans are fair game.

Chimpanzees live in tight troops within a distinct territory.  Where two territories overlap, the troops may fight over the disputed ground.  Intruders are greeted with a “Smile” that exposes the canines.  This is a warning, not a friendly gesture.

Chimps eat fruit, insects, small game, bushpigs, and eggs.  Large predators will kill straggling chimps, but most avoid facing the whole troop.  Humans sometimes capture young chimps as pets.  Playful and docile when young, adult chimps become dangerous and aggressive.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #56 (1995).


Chimpanzee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

Medium animal, Str 18-20, climb speed, slam/slam/bite attack pattern?


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2009)

Sounds reasonable.


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Medium animal, Str 18-20, climb speed, slam/slam/bite attack pattern?




I'd go for Strength 20. There hasn't been much study of how strong chimps are, but the little there have been showed them to be at least four times stronger than a human. Since a +10 Strength score can carry 4 times as much weight, that suggests a strength of 20+.

Come to think of it, the SRD Ape's ability scores look pretty close:

Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

Since it's a size smaller we could drop the Con to 12. The intelligence needs to be increased a bit - how about Int 6, the middle of AD&D Low Intelligence range of Int 5-7?

Str 21, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 7

I agree with 2 slams and a bite, but would make the bite the primary attack. If I remember correctly chimps, like most primates, do most of their damage with their teeth when fighting.

Two Hit Dice seems the way to go.

Medium Animal
Hit Dice 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Speed: 30 ft, climb 20 ft (The SRD Ape's climb 30 is a bit too high for a "realistic" Chimp)
Attack: Bite 1d4+5, Slam 1d4+5
Full attack: Bite 1d4+5 and 2 slams 1d2+2
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, poor swimmer, scent
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium) (The SRD Ape goes to double HD, same size)


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

1d2 is way too low damage for a Medium creature's slam attacks.  I boosted them to 1d4.  

How do we want to handle "poor swimmer"?   A racial penalty on Swim checks?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 17, 2009)

The problem with the Int of 6 is this... it's an animal. Animals in D&D are defined by their Int scores of 1 or 2. I know that Int 6 is probably right for a chimpanzee (and I'd also recommend it for dolphins, whales and other great apes, and slot ravens and octopodes in at 4 or so)... but we're still operating under the scope of 3.5, which sets a very clear precedent.

Man, I feel like I'm on the Supreme Court here.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2009)

Int 2 it is.

Your thoughts on "poor swimmer", Chief Justice Demiurge?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 18, 2009)

On the whole "chimp swimming" issue, I've heard conflicting information. I've seen it written that chimpanzees avoid the water overall and tend to panic if made to swim... but I've also seen a chimpanzee swimming and wading. So it sounds like chimps are like humans. If they don't learn to swim, they can't. If we wanted to handle it at all, we could do, say...

Poor Swimmer (Ex): Unlike many animals, chimpanzees cannot swim instinctively, and cannot make Swim checks with a DC higher than 10 untrained. Swim is not a class skill for chimpanzees.


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> 1d2 is way too low damage for a Medium creature's slam attacks.  I boosted them to 1d4.




I just left in the 1d2 the dungeon conversion used. If I remember correctly, that's the same damage as a 2nd edition AD&D unarmed strike, which by analogy would argue for chimps doing 1d3 damage with their fists.

Further, on behalf of the defence may I argue that a chimp's hands, while large and much more powerful than a human's, are just as soft-skinned and blunt-nailed, which could justify them doing non-lethal damage unarmed strikes instead of slams.


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The problem with the Int of 6 is this... it's an animal. Animals in D&D are defined by their Int scores of 1 or 2. I know that Int 6 is probably right for a chimpanzee (and I'd also recommend it for dolphins, whales and other great apes, and slot ravens and octopodes in at 4 or so)... but we're still operating under the scope of 3.5, which sets a very clear precedent.
> 
> Man, I feel like I'm on the Supreme Court here.




Well since by you're own admission an Intelligence of 6 is "probably right" for my client, I propose that the noble chimp be hereby promoted to a Humanoid, with all the legal protections that entails.

That "animals must have Int 1 or 2" is one of the sillier bits of 3.5. Some of the Type restrictions seem very arbitrary, and can make it hard to fit a creatures to the "right" Type.


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> On the whole "chimp swimming" issue, I've heard conflicting information. I've seen it written that chimpanzees avoid the water overall and tend to panic if made to swim... but I've also seen a chimpanzee swimming and wading. So it sounds like chimps are like humans. If they don't learn to swim, they can't. If we wanted to handle it at all, we could do, say...
> 
> Poor Swimmer (Ex): Unlike many animals, chimpanzees cannot swim instinctively, and cannot make Swim checks with a DC higher than 10 untrained. Swim is not a class skill for chimpanzees.




That looks a good solution. It's certainly possible for a chimp to splash about in water, though they likely too stocky and dense to be any good at swimming. I'd give them a racial penalty to Swim checks, since otherwise their high strength would give them a better default Swim modifier (+5) than most humans. A -4 penalty to make it Swim +1?


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2009)

Cleon said:


> I'd go for Strength 20. There hasn't been much study of how strong chimps are, but the little there have been showed them to be at least four times stronger than a human. Since a +10 Strength score can carry 4 times as much weight, that suggests a strength of 20+.
> 
> Come to think of it, the SRD Ape's ability scores look pretty close:
> 
> ...




I'm having second thoughts about the Strength 21.

There's conflicting information about chimpanzee strength. A lot of the sources I came across quoted 4-8 times stronger than a human, which works out at Str 20-25 (assuming the human in question is Str 10). However these may be anecdotal, exaggerated or based on old zoo experiments that included an upward bias (since they basically measured arm strength, and chimps have proportionally much more upper body strength than a human, so they're total body Strength will not be that high).

There's a thread on rpg.net were the subject of realistic halfling strength came up, and some contributors quoted lower estimates of chimp strength of more recent provenance, giving them twice or three times human Strength (which translates as Str 15-18 in human terms).

I'm now tempted to split the difference and give them Strength 19.

Assuming a typical wild Chimp has a non-elite ability array it could put its 13 in Strength and add a +6 racial bonus, (and +6 Str is about 2.3 times stronger in terms of carrying capacity, so it's still about twice as strong as a human).

As an added bonus, if a Small ape has a Strength of 15 (as in the Menace Manual version of a chimp), then simply Advancing it to Medium gives it Str 19.

What do you guys think?


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

That works for me.

The "ape" in the SRD is supposed to be a more aggressive gorilla, and I have a hard time imagining a chimp as strong as a gorilla.  Of course, I'm no expert on apes.


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## freyar (Jul 20, 2009)

Str 19 is ok by me, but I don't think we should use the non-elite array.  Only chimps with NPC classes get to use that. 

The swimming bit is fine, but I don't see why chimps with character classes  wouldn't get to take Swim as a class skill.  Since we're presumably leaving Swim off the skills list, it's automatically not a class skill for chimps with only racial HD.  And then the bit about needing training makes it unnecessary to give them a racial penalty, don't you think?


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> That works for me.
> 
> The "ape" in the SRD is supposed to be a more aggressive gorilla, and I have a hard time imagining a chimp as strong as a gorilla.  Of course, I'm no expert on apes.




Well going by the description the SRD 'Ape' seems more like the AD&D giant carnivorous ape. I also think it's under-strengthened for a gorilla-like brute.

When we get on to the big ape I'd just apply the normal +8 Str for advancing from Medium to Large onto the chimp's Str 19, to get a gorilla with Str 27.

What about the idea of making it Humanoid to justify its Int 6? I wasn't _entirely_ joking. Compared some of 3rd ed's creatures that are typed as Humanoid, a chimpanzee is positively mundane.

They are our closest living relatives, you know.

EDIT: Oh, and shouldn't this thread be closed and restarted as "*Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin, Part 2*", since we're well over a thousand posts.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Well going by the description the SRD 'Ape' seems more like the AD&D giant carnivorous ape. I also think it's under-strengthened for a gorilla-like brute.
> 
> When we get on to the big ape I'd just apply the normal +8 Str for advancing from Medium to Large onto the chimp's Str 19, to get a gorilla with Str 27.




While your reasoning makes sense, it also creates all kinds of havoc with the Str 22 dire ape!  



Cleon said:


> What about the idea of making it Humanoid to justify its Int 6? I wasn't _entirely_ joking. Compared some of 3rd ed's creatures that are typed as Humanoid, a chimpanzee is positively mundane.
> 
> They are our closest living relatives, you know.




I'm definitely not a fan of making it humanoid!  



Cleon said:


> EDIT: Oh, and shouldn't this thread be closed and restarted as "*Converting "Real World" Animals and Vermin, Part 2*", since we're well over a thousand posts.




Indeed, although we technically weren't over 1,000 posts when we started this conversion.  

I'll definitely close it after this one, though.


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## Rappy (Jul 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm definitely not a fan of making it humanoid!



Monstrous humanoid, then? 

In seriousness, we could either stick to the rules or we could take a page from Goodman Games's book (the _Broncosaurus Rex_ books, to be precise ) and flub the rules a bit to get a smarter chimp.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Rappy said:


> Monstrous humanoid, then?
> 
> In seriousness, we could either stick to the rules or we could take a page from Goodman Games's book (the _Broncosaurus Rex_ books, to be precise ) and flub the rules a bit to get a smarter chimp.




Chimpanzees are always breaking the rules. They're all cheetahs, you know.

Well personally I'm happy to houserule and would just give them Int 6, Animal Type be damned, but its probably better to stick to the Rules-As-Written, if only to keep everyone on the same page. Making them Humanoid seemed a compromise solution - a chimp isn't any further from a human than a gnoll, after all. But if you don't like the idea, I guess they'll have to end up dumb Int 2 animals.

Oh, and I don't see how they can be Monstrous Humanoids. Chimps don't have darkvision!


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> While your reasoning makes sense, it also creates all kinds of havoc with the Str 22 dire ape!




Yes, I realized that, but it's the Dire Ape's fault for being a weakling. It's got up to twice the bodyweight of an Ogre (800-1200 lbs vs 600-650) but only a point more Strength. Shrink it down to Medium sized and its only Str 14 - most human fighters are stronger than that. It just doesn't feel right, I would like Dire Apes to have a Strength score in the same region as a Hill Giant (Str 25, 1100 lbs), if not a tad more.


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## Rappy (Jul 21, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I realized that, but it's the Dire Ape's fault for being a weakling. It's got up to twice the bodyweight of an Ogre (800-1200 lbs vs 600-650) but only a point more Strength. Shrink it down to Medium sized and its only Str 14 - most human fighters are stronger than that. It just doesn't feel right, I would like Dire Apes to have a Strength score in the same region as a Hill Giant (Str 25, 1100 lbs), if not a tad more.



Trying to judge D&D animal strength compared to reality is like taking a makeup test...you either grin and bear it or furiously try to rewrite the rules. 

...Wait, that didn't make any sense at all...

And yes, gnolls are humanoids, although I never quite understood it.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Why don't we stick to Int 2 animal and hope Pathfinder fixes that rule? 

Dunno what to do about the dire ape.  Probably the best thing to do is mostly ignore it.  We could so Str 15-16 chimp and Str 23-24 gorilla, which isn't too far off, if we're really concerned about the dire ape. It's not like we don't choose better feats for dinos, etc, after all.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Dunno what to do about the dire ape.  Probably the best thing to do is mostly ignore it.  We could so Str 15-16 chimp and Str 23-24 gorilla, which isn't too far off, if we're really concerned about the dire ape. It's not like we don't choose better feats for dinos, etc, after all.




Yes, I'd just forget about it as far as out chimp/gorilla conversions go.

Besides, I wouldn't use the SRD version of the Dire Ape. I've statted up an alternative "Building a Better Monster" version I like better, based on my homebrew attempt at a Dire Animal template (it's a bit tougher than the official monster, with 8HD and Str 25, but that's a story for another day).


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I realized that, but it's the Dire Ape's fault for being a weakling. It's got up to twice the bodyweight of an Ogre (800-1200 lbs vs 600-650) but only a point more Strength. Shrink it down to Medium sized and its only Str 14 - most human fighters are stronger than that. It just doesn't feel right, I would like Dire Apes to have a Strength score in the same region as a Hill Giant (Str 25, 1100 lbs), if not a tad more.




OK, I can agre with that.  SRD dire ape = bad example.  



Rappy said:


> And yes, gnolls are humanoids, although I never quite understood it.




Agreed wholeheartedly.  Bugbears are pushing the limits in my opinion, but a hyena-headed, demon-worshiping thing seems monstrous to me.  I've also never understood why they lack bite attacks.  <shrug>



freyar said:


> Why don't we stick to Int 2 animal and hope Pathfinder fixes that rule?




Agreed.  If the dolphin and pig are stuck with Int 2, so's the chimp.   And no stretch of the imagination can make dolphins humanoids!  



freyar said:


> Dunno what to do about the dire ape.  Probably the best thing to do is mostly ignore it.  We could so Str 15-16 chimp and Str 23-24 gorilla, which isn't too far off, if we're really concerned about the dire ape. It's not like we don't choose better feats for dinos, etc, after all.




If the theoretical reworked dire ape is Str 25 (on par with hill giant), I'd rather the gorilla be closer to the ogre (Str 21).


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

Shade said:


> OK, I can agre with that.  SRD dire ape = bad example.
> 
> If the theoretical reworked dire ape is Str 25 (on par with hill giant), I'd rather the gorilla be closer to the ogre (Str 21).




Oh that's just what came out when I applied my homebrew template to the SRD dire ape, I wouldn't put much into that. If I was reworking it from scratch I'd probably be tempted to give it something a bit higher.

Besides, I like my carnivorous apes to have semi-human attributes, like the monstrous man-apes in Conan stories, or the numerous movie killer apes that have a certain resemblance to stuntment in suits. For AD&D examples, the Jim Holloway illustration for Dragon #133's The Ecology of the Carnivorous Ape is a good example of how I imagine the Dire Ape.

As for gorilla strength, unfortunately there's even less info out there than for chimpanzees. I've seen estimates ranging from four times a human's to twenty seven times a human's, but have been unable to find anything with much actual evidence to back it up. Assuming a human is Str 10, that's anywhere from Str 20 to Str 34. Add those together and average them and you get ... Strength 27, or about ten times stronger than a human.

Which, by a remarkable coincidence, is the Strength I'm suggesting.


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2009)

Let's go with Str 15 for the chimp and 21 for the gorilla, just to line up with the ogre.  I mean, an ogre should really be an evolved gorilla, right?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

Again, realism is not exactly what D&D is all about. Considering the precedent, gorillas with ogre strength work for me, and I'm okay with chimps at 15-16.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2009)

Updated.

-4 racial penatly on Swim to go along with poor swimmer?

Skills: Climb +10, 5 ranks

Feats: 1


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm okay with the racial swim penalty. 

Multiattack or Alertness for the feat. Ranks should go into Listen, Spot, Survival.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's go with Str 15 for the chimp and 21 for the gorilla, just to line up with the ogre.  I mean, an ogre should really be an evolved gorilla, right?




Well they'll still be implausibly strong in my game, but I won't complain if you want those scores.



demiurge1138 said:


> I'm okay with the racial swim penalty.
> 
> Multiattack or Alertness for the feat. Ranks should go into Listen, Spot, Survival.




Yes to the -4 racial adjustment to swim, although I wouldn'y give them any other racial bonuses.

As for the feat, Alertness would be my pick, since most of the SRD primates have it. Then I'd probably put 1 skill point in Spot and Listen and 3 in survival, so it gets a +4 modifier in them each once its Wisdom bonus is added.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Hmm, that's fine, though I might go with Multiattack given the reputation chimps have for meanness.  Still, Alertness works pretty well, and customization is always an option.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmm, that's fine, though I might go with Multiattack given the reputation chimps have for meanness.  Still, Alertness works pretty well, and customization is always an option.




Well I'd think Improved Grapple (or the Imp. Grab & Rend pair of Special Attacks) would fit better for a "Combat Chimp" than Multiattack. From what I've read, chimps are great wrestlers, and most people who have been attacked by them were either grabbed and thrown about, or the chimp jumped on them, held on and bit them repeatedly.

Still, chimps are (somewhat) intelligent and have individual personalities, so presumably the D&D may vary quite a bit in their skill and feat selection.


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## Rappy (Jul 22, 2009)

I'd agree with Cleon. Although both are better matches than the Weapon Finesse feat the Menace Manual gives.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

Rappy said:


> I'd agree with Cleon. Although both are better matches than the Weapon Finesse feat the Menace Manual gives.




Just to add to the weirdness, the Menace Manual lists its Weapon Finesse as a Bonus feat (not unusual for a Small critter with a higher Dex than Str), which means the Chimp is missing its regular feat for a 1 Hit Dice Animal.

Oh, and the d20 modern version of a chimp has a -2 grapple modifier, which is just plain silly for a chimpanzee, especially as it gives the ape Improved Grab & batter as tactics.


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Wait, does d20 Modern use 3.0 or 3.5 feat rules for monsters?  I was looking at MM2 recently, and that reminds me that not all monsters get feats (or normal skills) in 3.0.


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## Rappy (Jul 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Wait, does d20 Modern use 3.0 or 3.5 feat rules for monsters?  I was looking at MM2 recently, and that reminds me that not all monsters get feats (or normal skills) in 3.0.



d20 Modern refuses feats to creatures of the animal type. Everything else gets feats normally, though...hm.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

Rappy said:


> d20 Modern refuses feats to creatures of the animal type. Everything else gets feats normally, though...hm.




It does? That would explain it then. I thought the feat rules were basically the same as 3.0. I never bothered reading the rules very closely, never having played it.

Anyhow, getting back to our 3.5 chimp, what are we doing skills & feat wise.

So far we've got:

Alertness and +10 Climb, +4 Listen, +4 Spot, +4 Survival, -2* Swim

Improved Grapple and +10 Climb, +3 Listen, +3 Spot, +2 Survival, -2* Swim

Alertness and +10 Climb, +4 Listen, +4 Spot, +4 Survival, -2* Swim plus giving it Improved Grab and Rend as special attacks.

They all work for me, so which do you fancy?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

Sounds like a holdover from 3.0, then.  

Anyway, are we all happy with Cleon's proposal of skill ranks Listen 1, Spot 1, Survival 3 and Alertness for the feat?

Edit: I was ninjaed!  I don't think it can take Improved Grapple as a feat, unless we also give it Imp Unarmed Strike as a bonus.  I like the first line as a basic, and I could see Imp Grab as a special attack.  You'll have a tougher sell with Rend, though, I think.


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## Cleon (Jul 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> Edit: I was ninjaed!  I don't think it can take Improved Grapple as a feat, unless we also give it Imp Unarmed Strike as a bonus.  I like the first line as a basic, and I could see Imp Grab as a special attack.  You'll have a tougher sell with Rend, though, I think.




I was thinking something like the grapple, slam & bite built into the Menace Manual's version of the Chimp, whose Improved Grab description goes like this:
*Improved Grab (Ex): *To use this ability, the chimpanzee must hit a single opponent that is its own size category or smaller with both slam attacks in the same round. During any round that it grapples such a creature, the chimpanzee may make one additional grapple check as a free action at its highest attack bonus. On a successful hit with such an attack, it automatically deals bite and slam damage to its foe.​


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2009)

That's a slightly weak improved grab (since it has to hit with both slams) plus what I think we've been calling Maul (bite damage in place of constrict).  (But doesn't quite sound like rend, other than requiring two slams to hit.)  I guess I could see weak Improved Grab plus Maul or else just regular Improved Grab.  I'd like to know what everyone thinks, though.  I just worry a little about improving too much vs baseline SRD monsters.


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2009)

I'm not really feeling the improved grab love for chimps.  Isn't the whole point of improved grab to avoid attacks of opportunity when initiating a grapple?   Nothing about real-life chimps makes me think they couldn't be easily smacked while trying to grab onto you.

I could be convinced of a small racial bonus on grapple checks, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 23, 2009)

A +2 on grapple checks, I would support.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2009)

Sounds fair.


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> A +2 on grapple checks, I would support.




Works for me. I do want them to be good grapplers, and agree they shouldn't all be able to avoid AoOs.


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## Shade (Jul 24, 2009)

Updated.

CR 1?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 24, 2009)

CR 1 looks appropriate. 

I'm also tempted to give it Multiattack, maybe as a bonus feat. Poor -2 slam attacks.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> CR 1?




Yes, Challenge Rating 1 seems to fit.



demiurge1138 said:


> I'm also tempted to give it Multiattack, maybe as a bonus feat. Poor -2 slam attacks.




Not so sure about that, but I'm game if the others fancy Multiattack.


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## Rappy (Jul 25, 2009)

Multiattack as a bonus feat? Sounds good to me.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2009)

Rappy said:


> Multiattack as a bonus feat? Sounds good to me.




It looks like the vote's in favour of a bonus Multiattack then, which will boost its slam attack to +1.

The only thing we have left is flavour text and tactics. How about this for flavour text:Chimpanzees are medium-sized apes that live in tight-knit troops with a distinct territory. Where two territories overlap, the troops may fight over the disputed ground. Each troop is dominated by the largest male.

These apes are unpredictable and dangerous animals. Chimps fight with their hands and teeth, but usually flee from danger into the trees. They sometimes ambush lone humans who trespass onto their territory and may attack small groups of humans on rare occasions, but are no threat to large parties. Intruders are often greeted with a “Smile” that exposes their long canines. This is a warning, not a friendly gesture.

Chimps are omnivorous, eating fruit, leaves, roots, insects, small game, bushpigs, and eggs. The larger jungle predators will kill straggling chimpanzees, but most avoid facing the whole troop.

 Humans sometimes capture young chimps as pets. Playful and docile when young, adult chimps become aggressive and irritable. Chimpanzees are mature at eight years. Wild chimps rarely live over 40 years, but well cared for individuals can reach ages of over 60 years in captivity.

A typical chimpanzee is between 3 and 4 feet tall and weighs around 120 pounds. The largest males may approach 5’ tall and 175 lbs.​It's more or less the same as the original _Dungeon_ description, with some tweaking of the sizes to better fit with real-world chimps.

As for Tactics, I was thinking something like this:Chimpanzees attack with a bite and two slam attacks, they often grapple their opponents.

 These animals are disturbingly intelligent, and may use tricks or deception to distract their opponents. A troop of chimps co-operates in combat, and a band that is experienced with hunting together may even use primitive tactics, such as sneaking up to a foe from opposite sides to make flanking attacks, or having some of their number try to frighten weaker creatures to run into an ambush set by their companions.​


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2009)

Works here, too.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Looks done to me.

Shall we start on the Gorilla then?


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2009)

Looks good (though the last update link isn't quite working, Shade).

Gorilla sounds fine!


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2009)

Stupid slow servers!  Double post.


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2009)

freyar said:


> Looks good (though the last update link isn't quite working, Shade).
> 
> Gorilla sounds fine!




Looks like the last link got a stray wild character stuck on the end, the URL ended 4868604-post708.html%22 when it should be 4868604-post708.html.

As for the Gorilla, which version are we basing the conversion on again? I'm thinking this won't take long, as it's a fairly straightforward beast. But then I thought that about the Chimpanzee!


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2009)

It probably matters little which earlier stats we use, as we'll want to realistically place it into the 3.5 "ape hierarchy".

Here are the 2e Monstrous Manual stats:

Mammal #AP AC MV HD THAC0 # of Att Dmg/Att Morale XP Value
Gorilla 1-4 6 12 4+1 17 3 1-3/1-3/1-6 Average (8-10) 175 

Gorilla: The gorilla is non-aggressive and shy, but fights fiercely when threatened or cornered.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2009)

Well, compared to our chimp, 4HD and Con 14-16 seems like a reasonable place to start.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, compared to our chimp, 4HD and Con 14-16 seems like a reasonable place to start.




OK, I'd start by Advancing our chimp to Large and giving it 4 Hit Dice.

I'd go for Con 14 since (a) I don't believe real-world gorillas are any more disease resistant than chimps and (b) that's what the SRD Ape does. I'd also make its Slams the primary attack, for similar reasons.

Oh, and if I remember correctly adult gorillas aren't very fast climbers, so I'd drop its Climb speed to 10.

Since it's got AC6 in the 2E version, I'll top up its Natural Armour to match.

We end up with something very similar to the SRD Ape.

Are we leaving it its Bonus Multiattack, or do we make the big ape pay for it?

Oh, and I thought we'd reluctantly decided to drop the Chimp's Int to 2, but it's still Int 6 in the stats.

Suggested Gorilla:
*Gorilla*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 10 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+14
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 Slams +7 melee (1d6+6) and bite +5 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Fierce grappler
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, poor swimmer, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +13, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +4
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (B or regular?)
Environment: Warm forests

Note: I put its extra 2 skill points in Listen & Spot.


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## Cleon (Jul 31, 2009)

Now for further tweaking, I'd be tempted to reduce the Advanced Chimp version's Slam damage, since the 2E version has fists that do half the damage of its bite (1-6 versus 1-3). So I'm thinking we should drop Slam to 1d4. I may even reverse my initial stance and make its bite its primary attack, thus further differentiating it from the SRD Ape, which if it is anything like the old AD&D Carnivorous Ape would have talon-like nails instead of a gorilla's blunt fingernails.

*Suggested Gorilla* (Mark 2)
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 10 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+14
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d6+6) or slam +7 melee (1d4+6)
Full Attack: bite +7 melee (1d6+6) and 2 slams +5 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Fierce grappler
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, poor swimmer, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +13, Listen +5, Spot +5, Survival +4
Feats: Alertness, Multiattack (B or regular?)
Environment: Warm forests


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2009)

I've fixed the chimp's Int.  Thanks for catching it.

What do the rest of you think on making the bite primary?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2009)

For the gorilla, slams primary, bite secondary, no need for Multiattack

Also, Shade, watch for Cleon's continued Int 6 tricks! Do not fall for his traps!


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> For the gorilla, slams primary, bite secondary, no need for Multiattack




That works to, and is consistent with the SRD Ape/Dire Ape. I did like the idea of switching things around a bit to make the Gorilla more different from the 3E's official Large primates.



demiurge1138 said:


> Also, Shade, watch for Cleon's continued Int 6 tricks! Do not fall for his traps!




Ah, but if I trick Shade into lowering his Int to 2 he'll be even more likely to fall for my traps!


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2009)

Hmmm, I'd just imagine a gorilla would slam first and bite second, though.

Cleon, I hope Pathfinder changes that Int rule for you.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 2, 2009)

Yeah, gorillas aren't generally known for biting. Chimps certainly are (what with all of the stories in the news these days about captive chimps lashing out), but gorillas?


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Also, Shade, watch for Cleon's continued Int 6 tricks! Do not fall for his traps!






			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Ah, but if I trick Shade into lowering his Int to 2 he'll be even more likely to fall for my traps!




_Shade does not speak or understand any languages._

<makes Will save, snaps out of it>

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2009)

2nd feat Power Attack?

CR 2 or 3?  Can't quite decide.


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## Cleon (Aug 4, 2009)

freyar said:


> 2nd feat Power Attack?
> 
> CR 2 or 3?  Can't quite decide.




Power Attack works for me.

I just realized I miscalculated its Grapple. Should be +15, not +14 if you include its Fierce Grappler ability.

The damage hasn't been upgraded from the Chimp - I think Slam +8 melee (1d6+6), Bite +3 melee (1d6+3) would do.

Oh, and Climb should be at least +14. (8 from racial, 6 from Strength)

That's assuming we keep the Str 23. There was talk of dropping it to Str 21, the same as the SRD Ape, which would make it grapple +14, slam +7 melee (1d6+5), bite +2 melee (1d6+2), Climb +13.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

CR 2.  It's not nearly as deadly as the CR 3 dire ape.

"Ape" is 1d6 for bite and claws.  Dire ape is 1d6 for claws as well.  So I can see 1d6 for the claws, but I think bite should remain 1d4 as gorillas aren't as known for biting (and the carnivorous ape is presumably better suited to tearing flesh).

Definitely drop Str back to 21, as I don't want it eclipsing the presumably bigger and deadlier dire ape.

I like Power Attack for them as well.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2009)

Agreed to dropping Str and giving them Power Attack. Actually... considering that the chest-beating and posturing that male gorillas are famous for is all about intimidation, some ranks in that would be appropriate.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2009)

Excellent suggestion!  Perhaps a racial bonus as well?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 5, 2009)

Agreed. +4?


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> CR 2.  It's not nearly as deadly as the CR 3 dire ape.




Yes, CR2 seems right for me.



Shade said:


> "Ape" is 1d6 for bite and claws.  Dire ape is 1d6 for claws as well.  So I can see 1d6 for the claws, but I think bite should remain 1d4 as gorillas aren't as known for biting (and the carnivorous ape is presumably better suited to tearing flesh).




They may not be known for biting, but they've got pretty powerful jaws. 1d4+2 seems too puny a bite damage to me.



Shade said:


> Definitely drop Str back to 21, as I don't want it eclipsing the presumably bigger and deadlier dire ape.




That brings us onto the subject of size and weight. The SRD's "An adult male ape is 5½ to 6 feet tall and weighs 300 to 400 pounds" seems fine to me.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Agreed to dropping Str and giving them Power Attack. Actually... considering that the chest-beating and posturing that male gorillas are famous for is all about intimidation, some ranks in that would be appropriate.




Ooh, I like that idea. Shall we give switch out a rank of Listen and Spot to give it 2 ranks of Intimidation (total +4 from +4 racial -2 Cha +2 ranks), changing the skills to:

Skills: Climb +13, Intimidate +4, Listen +4, Spot +4, Survival +4


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Ooh, I like that idea. Shall we give switch out a rank of Listen and Spot to give it 2 ranks of Intimidation (total +4 from +4 racial -2 Cha +2 ranks), changing the skills to:
> 
> Skills: Climb +13, Intimidate +4, Listen +4, Spot +4, Survival +4



That works for me.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Updated.

What do the rest of you think about the bite damage (1d4 vs. 1d6)?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

I have to stick with 1d4.  It'd be just too similar to the SRD (carnivorous) ape otherwise.  And I agree that the carnivorous ape would logically have a better bite.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

Agreed to d4.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Updated.

Feel free to spruce up the flavor text and tactics.

Are gorillas poor swimmers like chimps?

Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large) like SRD ape?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

Nope. Gorillas like the water, especially western lowland gorillas, which are often found in swamps.


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Nope. Gorillas like the water, especially western lowland gorillas, which are often found in swamps.




My understanding was Gorillas were in the same boat as Chimps and were not instinctive swimmers who generally avoid getting in water. Gorillas in wet habitats do learn to wade in streams and marshes but are cautious about it - testing the water to see how deep it is before venturing to take a dip.

How about giving them the Chimp's racial penalty to Swim checks, but remove the "cannot take 10" bit of Poor Swimmer, which will result in them being willing to enter safe water but not be impressive swimmers. Since they have a +5 Strength bonus they'll still end up with a +1 Swim bonus.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> All done?




Yup, looks finished to me.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Wanna convert this while we're on an ape kick?

*Ape, Giant*
AC:6 MV:12 HD:10 hp:50 #AT:3 Dmg:2-8/2-8/2-16 SA:Rend (2-16) SD:Nil AL:N THAC0:10
[No additional description that I could find.]

Dire apes stay Large.  Make this one Huge?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Definitely Huge.  Give it Fierce Grappler to go with Rend.


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## Cleon (Aug 8, 2009)

Shade said:


> Wanna convert this while we're on an ape kick?
> 
> *Ape, Giant*
> AC:6 MV:12 HD:10 hp:50 #AT:3 Dmg:2-8/2-8/2-16 SA:Rend (2-16) SD:Nil AL:N THAC0:10
> ...




Might as well.

Where's this from?  It isn't the Gargantuan Carnivorous Ape from Gygax's Isle of the Ape, which is also a tempting topic of conversion if we haven't already done it.

I'm thinking we should make this a Dire Animal rather than a regular one, since it's not a "real animal". Actually basing it on an upscaled Dire Ape seems a good start:

I'm thinking Huge Animal (Dire), Hit Dice 10d8+40 (95 hp), Str 30, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7, Two 1d8+10 slams, a 2d6+5 bite and a 2d8+15 rend.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 8, 2009)

For comparison purposes:

GIANT APE
Huge Monstrous Humanoid
Hit Dice: 15d8+105 (172 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50ft (10 squares), climb 30ft
Armor Class: 22 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +11 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 22
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+39
Attack: Slam +26 melee (2d6+12)
Full Attack: 2 slams +26 melee (2d6+12) and bite +20 melee (1d8+6)
Space/Reach: 15ft/15ft
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d6+12, improved grab, toss
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, uncanny dodge
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +12
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 16, Con 24, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 10
Skills: Climb +20, Jump +26, Listen +10, Spot +10
Feats: Alertness, Die-hard, Endurance, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (slam)
Environment: Warm forests and mountains
Organization: Solitary, pair or family (3-6 plus 100% noncombatants)
Challenge Rating: 10
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +8

Bursting from the jungle comes a great black-furred ape more than twenty feet tall.

Giant apes are easily the most famous of Skull Island’s species and likely one of its rarest. Large omnivores, giant apes eat primarily fruit and leaves but occasionally supplement their diets with meat. Families of giant apes live in the thick jungles of Skull Island, and solitary individuals (like the mighty Kong himself) live in the mountains for their relative safety.

The social system of the giant ape is more complicated than one might expect from an animal, reflecting the beasts’ great intelligence. The apes are quite vocal, grunting, hooting and bellowing to each other, complemented by a surprisingly sophisticated range of gestures and facial expressions. Giant apes and vastatosaurus rexes are natural enemies – the dinosaurs hunt young giant apes for food, and the giant apes hunt V. rexes not for food, but for protection. Confrontations between members of the two species are generally fatal to one party or the other.

Giant apes range in size from eighteen to twenty five feet tall. The males are generally larger than the females.

Combat
Giant apes are usually retiring and shy, avoiding confrontation. If injured, however, they are incredibly deadly, grabbing their smaller tormentors and either squeezing them to death or merely hurling them in a random direction. Some giant apes have been known to use trees as improvised weapons (treat as a Huge greatclub).

Constrict (Ex): A giant ape deals an additional 2d6+12 damage on a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, a giant ape must hit an opponent with a slam attack. It can then make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it successfully grabs an opponent, it can constrict or toss the poor creature.

Toss (Ex): A giant ape can toss a grappled opponent in a random direction. Resolve the toss as a bull’s rush maneuver (+24 check modifier), except there is no attack of opportunity, as the giant ape has already grabbed its victim. The giant ape does not need to move with its foe in order to throw its foe more than 5 feet. If the tossed victim beats the giant ape’s bull’s rush check, he remains in his current square with no ill effects and is no longer grappled. Tossed victims take impact damage on landing as if they had fallen a distance equal to the distance they were tossed.

Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A giant ape retains its Dexterity modifier to Armor Checks when flat-footed.

Skills: A giant ape receives a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks and can take 10 on Climb checks even when rushed or threatened.

And yes, Cleon, it's got an Int of 6, because it's not an animal. Presumably, our giant ape here will be, but I'm definitely open to negotiations on that one.


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## Cleon (Aug 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> For comparison purposes:
> 
> And yes, Cleon, it's got an Int of 6, because it's not an animal. Presumably, our giant ape here will be, but I'm definitely open to negotiations on that one.




I was wondering how long it would take for that guy to turn up. No need to point out the explanation for their Int 6, I noticed they were Monstrous Humanoids when they appeared in your thread on Skull Island fauna. I wouldn't have minded making our regular Chimps and Gorillas Humanoids or Monstrous Humanoids, just to allow them an Intelligence over 2.

As well as being a smarter, _Megaprimatus kong_ also appears to be a bit bigger and tougher than the species of giant ape under discussion, given the latter's lower HD and damage.

So what are we doing for stats? I'm still thinking we could basically just advance a regular Dire Ape one size category and double its Hit Dice:

GIANT APE
 Huge Animal (Dire)
 Hit Dice: 10d8+40 (95 hp)
 Initiative: +1
 Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
 Armor Class: 16 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 15
 Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+27 *[*_includes +2 from fierce grappler_*]*
 Attack: Claw +15 melee (2d4+10) or rock +6 ranged (2d6+10)
 Full Attack: 2 claws +15 melee (2d4+10) and bite +10 melee (2d6+5) or rock +6/+1 ranged (2d6+10)
 Space/Reach: 15 ft. / 15 ft.
 Special Attacks: Fierce grappler, Improved grab, rend 3d6+15, rock throwing *[*_20 or 120 ft. range increment?_*]*
 Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
 Saves: Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8 *[*Ref +10, Will +10_ w/Feats_*]*
 Abilities: Str 30, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
 Skills: 13 *[*Listen, Survival, Spot*]*
 Feats: 4 *[*Alertness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack*]*
 Environment: ? [Any forests or mountains?*]*
 Organization: Solitary or company (5-8) *[*_Maybe reduce company to 3-6?_*]*
 Challenge Rating: ? *[*5 or 6*?]*
 Treasure: None
 Alignment: Always neutral
 Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge), 21-30 (Gargantuan)
 Level Adjustment: ?

The only stat alterations I've made from an upsized Dire Ape is changed the claw damage from 1d8 to 2d4 and removed the Climb Speed, to match the stat thumbnail Shade posted.

Its lack of a Climb speed suggests a terrestrial creature rather than one that takes to the trees. Maybe it has a more bipedal, sasquatch-like stance than _Megaprimatus kong_?

I'm tempted to give it rock-throwing, just to differentiate it a bit more from Kong.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2009)

The save feats sound like good choices.  Rock-throwing is an interesting idea.  You know, that would have been a decent idea for the chimp, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 11, 2009)

I like rock throwing, definately. And maybe we should bring back rend/pummel.


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like rock throwing, definately. And maybe we should bring back rend/pummel.




Pardon? It's got Rend already.

As for the Rock Throwing, a Medium-sized human throwing a rock probably does 1d4, implying a Huge ape does 1d8. That seems a bit wimpy, a Huge Giant's rock-throwing does 2d8, but they're specialists in it. I'd suggest splitting the difference and giving it 2d6 damage rocks. What Range Increment? My initial thought was something typical for a thrown weapon like 20 foot rather than a bowshot+ range of giantish rock-throwing, but then they are _*Giant*_ Apes, so maybe they have a giant-like throwing arm - say, 120 feet like a Hill Giant?
*Rock Throwing:* The range increment is 20/120 feet for a giant ape’s thrown rocks. Full Attack: +6/+1 ranged (2d6+10)​


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> The save feats sound like good choices.  Rock-throwing is an interesting idea.  You know, that would have been a decent idea for the chimp, too.




Okay, I'll pencil in the save Feats & Rock-Throwing stats.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Where's this from?  It isn't the Gargantuan Carnivorous Ape from Gygax's Isle of the Ape, which is also a tempting topic of conversion if we haven't already done it.




Sorry for the omission!  It's from Adventure Pack I.

As for the Isle of the Ape...

Ape of the Isle
Ape of the Isle, Oonga

What you've got so far is looking good.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

Let's compromise on the range increment and go with 60 ft.  Also, I don't believe you can normally get iterative ranged attacks.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.   I put the climb speed of our lesser apes back in.  If you want to drop it, convince me.  

I see you added Improved Grab (the dire ape lacks it).  If we're going that route, why not borrow the constrict and/or toss from Demiurge's  giant ape?  I really like the toss.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 12, 2009)

I'm okay with climb speed.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sorry for the omission!  It's from Adventure Pack I.
> 
> As for the Isle of the Ape...
> 
> ...




Ta, I vaguely remembered we had a conversion of Gygax's answer to Kong somewhere around here, but was too lazy to hunt it down.

Hmm, only Str 34 - has he been sick?


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's compromise on the range increment and go with 60 ft. Also, I don't believe you can normally get iterative ranged attacks.




60 feet is fine by me.

You're right about it not being iterative, I keep forgetting using a light/1H throwing weapon is a standard attack as per RAW. Mostly because I disagree with the rule.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.   I put the climb speed of our lesser apes back in.  If you want to drop it, convince me.




Keep the Climb speed if you like, it doesn't bother me. I'd be tempted to reduce it to Climb 15 ft. though, to match the Dire Ape.



Shade said:


> I see you added Improved Grab (the dire ape lacks it). If we're going that route, why not borrow the constrict and/or toss from Demiurge's giant ape? I really like the toss.




I'm fine with adding Toss. Not so sure about  Constrict, since it would presumably do a lot less damage (2d4+10?) than Rend.

How about:
*Constrict:* A giant ape can automatically inflict its 3d6+15 Rend damage upon an opponent it is grappling. If it succeeds on a grapple check, it does an additional 2d6+10 damage to its opponent, for a total of 5d6+25.​Hmm, that's _nasty_. I like it.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

Let's drop constrict and add toss.


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## Cleon (Aug 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let's drop constrict and add toss.




Fine by me, we don't really need Constrict *and* Rend.


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: Climb +18, 13 ranks
Cleon suggested Listen, Survival, Spot upthread

Feats: 4
Cleon suggested Alertness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack upthread


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: Climb +18, 13 ranks
> Cleon suggested Listen, Survival, Spot upthread
> ...




3 points in Survival like our gorilla and 5 points each in Listen & Spot?

Assuming it has Alertness, that would give it Climb +18, Listen +8, Spot +8, Survival +4.

EDIT: I see you've given it a Giant's +1 to hit with rock-throwing in the Combat section. I didn't include this in my proposed Attack line, so it should become: rock +7 ranged (2d6+10)


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Oops!  I had the full attack line right, but missed the racial bonus on the attack line.  Fixed now.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or company (x–x)

Challenge Rating: 7-8?  It has a few less HD and hp than a hill giant, but far greater damage output.

A giant ape stands about x feet tall and weighs from x to x pounds.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2009)

Gaah! I just realized I figured its hit points wrong. I used the average values of a Magical Beast's d10, not the d8 hit dice it actually has.

 Average hit points should be 85.



Shade said:


> Oops!  I had the full attack line right, but missed the racial bonus on the attack line.  Fixed now.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Organization: Solitary or company (x–x)




How about Solitary or gang (2-5), I just like the word "gang" for them, and it's an organization used by Hill Giants.



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 7-8?  It has a few less HD and hp than a hill giant, but far greater damage output.




Not to mention they have all good saves, a not inconsequential boost in defences.

Although Hill Giants are arguably a bit over-Challenge Rated unless they're facing melee parties.

I'll vote for CR 7. Advancing a Dire Ape its CR works out around 6, the Giant Ape has a few extra tricks which I feel deserves a boost up one rank.



Shade said:


> A giant ape stands about x feet tall and weighs from x to x pounds.




Scaling up from a Dire Ape would gives us 18 feet and 6400-9600 pounds, which we could round out to "A giant ape stands about 18 feet tall and weighs from 6,000 to 10,000 pounds." That seems about right.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 15, 2009)

CR 7 seems about right.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Done, then?


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

I think so.

And I'm going to close this thread (for exceeding the 1,000 post limit) and open a new one before I forget again.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

New thread here.


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