# Subtle Rule Changes



## Gnome (Aug 21, 2009)

If you are very familiar with 3.5, it is easy to overlook some of the rule changes if you do not look closely enough, since you skim more, and assume that you know how it works already.  Here are a couple of examples that I noticed off the top of my head:

 * Paladins and Rangers cast at their level - 3 rather than half their level.
 * Specialist wizards can learn spells from their opposition schools, albeit with greater difficulty.

What subtle changes have the rest of you noticed, that could be easily overlooked like this?


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## TheNovaLord (Aug 21, 2009)

i think Cleave i just didnt notice was different until pointed out to me, and also poeple mis-reading power attack


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## Alzrius (Aug 21, 2009)

If a character is using a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon, not only is the natural weapon treated as a secondary natural weapon, but attacks with the manufactured weapon take two-weapon fighting penalties (the natural weapon being treated as a light off-hand weapon).


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 21, 2009)

Elves sleep.

Gnomes may speak to any animal rather than just burrowing mammals, and are no longer limited to one minute per day when doing so.


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## kitsune9 (Aug 21, 2009)

I overlooked how Acrobatics work when tumbling past opponents in the Beta.


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## Admiral Caine (Aug 21, 2009)

My group used the Beta, and often they didn't check the spell descriptions. We're converting to Final Core, and I'm going to remind them to read their spells again. There's a lot of small changes in there.

Mirror Image has been changed since Beta. Yet I found out no one had actually looked at the spell description for months and months.

Dispel Magic has been changed since Beta to Core. The 3rd level version no longer has an area effect, but the Greater Dispel Magic at 6th level does.

There are subtle changes everywhere. Most people noticed the Spiked Chain Alteration and that Clerics no longer get Heavy Armor Proficiency.. but thse don't jump out and smack you in the face.

There are really subtle ones like magical masks, which were part of the eye slot and are now part of the head slot.

BTW- I am really pleased that they cleaned up and consolidated the magic item slots... I had a player who joined my existing game and I allowed him some appropriate level magic items to start. He purchased a Hat of Disguise and a Circlet. However he was surprised when I said he couldn't wear both at the same time. I thought (and still do) that would be obvious. However, in the player's defense, he pointed to the 3.5 books and showed me all the items that occupy the hat, head, brow, and crown slots. While I don't think I would have made that mistake myself, I had to concede that that it was potentially clear as mud. Pathfinder consolidates the slots clearly, and also defines all the 3.5 slots into Pathfinder slots, which is helpful for conversion of old material.


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## Zaister (Aug 21, 2009)

You can no longer take more nonlethal damage than your maximum hit point total. Any excess is lethal damage.


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## Zaister (Aug 21, 2009)

Admiral Caine said:


> BTW- I am really pleased that they cleaned up and consolidated the magic item slots... I had a player who joined my existing game and I allowed him some appropriate level magic items to start. He purchased a Hat of Disguise and a Circlet. However he was surprised when I said he couldn't wear both at the same time. I thought (and still do) that would be obvious. However, in the player's defense, he pointed to the 3.5 books and showed me all the items that occupy the hat, head, brow, and crown slots. While I don't think I would have made that mistake myself, I had to concede that that it was potentially clear as mud. Pathfinder consolidates the slots clearly, and also defines all the 3.5 slots into Pathfinder slots, which is helpful for conversion of old material.




It's a weird decision, though, to make both the _headband of inspired wisdom_ and the _phylactery of positive/negative energy channeling_ use the same slot, as the latter is mostly useful for clerics who probably would rather have their wisdom increased...


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## Synchronicity (Aug 21, 2009)

The Ranger's favoured enemy bonus now applies to attack rolls as well as damage rolls.


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## Remathilis (Aug 21, 2009)

Any class can find/diable mechanical traps, but rogues (or any class with trapfinding) can find/disable magical traps (without resorting to detect & dispel magic).

While rogues still excel at it (1/2 rogue level to search) ANYONE can try...


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## Wicht (Aug 21, 2009)

Anyone can follow a set of tracks on the ground.  Anyone with ranks in the survival skill is actually good at it.


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## Admiral Caine (Aug 21, 2009)

Zaister said:


> It's a weird decision, though, to make both the _headband of inspired wisdom_ and the _phylactery of positive/negative energy channeling_ use the same slot, as the latter is mostly useful for clerics who probably would rather have their wisdom increased...




I agree with what you're saying.

It is almost as if they're doing a little 'balancing' with the slot redefinitions.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 22, 2009)

an_idol_mind said:


> Gnomes may speak to any animal rather than just burrowing mammals, and are no longer limited to one minute per day when doing so.




They also have CL = to character level, not 1, now.  I barely noticed that the first time.


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## Varianor Abroad (Aug 23, 2009)

Wicht said:


> Anyone can follow a set of tracks on the ground.  Anyone with ranks in the survival skill is actually good at it.




Finally! (I haven't yet opened and read it, but soon, very soon.) I'm glad that tracks don't magically disappear for everyone without Survival.


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## RaZZer99 (Aug 23, 2009)

Familiars can no longer share spell effects that their masters cast on themselves. I don't understand why this was removed. Was this ripe for abuse? Familiars were borderline useful to begin with and now this change only weakens them more. What's the point of an improved familiar if you can't buff them together with yourself?


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## frankthedm (Aug 23, 2009)

RaZZer99 said:


> Familiars can no longer share spell effects that their masters cast on themselves. I don't understand why this was removed. Was this ripe for abuse?



Ripe for confusion or someone 'conveniently' forgetting the limitations of the effect.



> *3.5 Share Spells*
> At the master’s option, he may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) he casts on himself also affect his familiar. The familiar* must be within 5 feet at the time of casting* to receive the benefit.
> 
> If the spell or effect has a duration *other than instantaneous*, it stops affecting the familiar *if it moves farther than 5 feet away *and *will not affect the familiar again* even if it returns to the master before the duration expires.



Also, correct me if i am wrong, but it looks like wizards HAVE to take a familiar or a bonded item. The familiar is actually less of a liability, since the death of the familiar has no cost, just replacing it does. The item potentially eats a item slot and screws the casters spells if it is lost or broken. Bonded Items look cool, but have more of a risk factor.


			
				PFSRD said:
			
		

> *Arcane Bond (Ex or Sp)*: At 1st level, wizards form a powerful bond with an object or a creature. This bond can take one of two forms: a familiar or a bonded object. Wizards who select a bonded object begin play with one at no cost. Objects that are the subject of an arcane bond must fall into one of the following categories: amulet, ring, staff, wand, or weapon. These objects are always masterwork quality. Weapons acquired at 1st level are not made of any special material. If the object is an amulet or ring, it must be worn to have effect, while staves, wands, and weapons must be wielded. If a wizard attempts to cast a spell without his bonded object worn or in hand, he must make a concentration check or lose the spell. The DC for *this check is equal to 20 + the spell's level.* If the object is a ring or amulet, it occupies the ring or neck slot accordingly.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 23, 2009)

I think the problem is the PRD has a condensed text.
Wizard
Druid

I can't link to the familiar and animal companion sections directly, sorry.
Someone who doesn't have the book and only the PRD would think they DID eliminate that portion of share spells.  (I do not yet have the book myself, were you quoting from it, frank?)


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## RaZZer99 (Aug 23, 2009)

I do have the physical book and the text is the exact same as the PRD. Frank is quoting the 3.5 rules, not PF.

The 3.5 version may be a bit confusing, but I disagree with the wholesale removal of sharing spell effects. If its got confusing limitations, why not just streamline it to say familiars can share any of their master's spell effects if with 5'.

Without sharing spells, does this mean Mirror Image doesn't really work all that well when the familiar is sitting on your shoulder? After all the effect is applied only to you which should be a dead give away as to who is the real wizard.

What about when you have protection from elements? Do you walk unscathed through the fires whilst your poor familiar is burnt to a crisp?

Seems even more confusion and troublesome now.


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## frankthedm (Aug 23, 2009)

Wizard - final (Pathfinder_OGC)  was where i was taking the text from


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## frankthedm (Aug 24, 2009)

The Pathfinder Line area of effect seems to officially use the literal text of 3.5, rather than the more generous reading of the 3.5 PHB example, which seemed to be what wotc was actually using in 3.5 & DDM.



			
				Pathfinder said:
			
		

> A line-shaped spell shoots away from you in a line in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and extends to the limit of its range or until it strikes a barrier that blocks line of effect. A line-shaped spell affects all creatures in squares through which the line passes.






			
				Skip Williams addressing this issue for 3.5 said:
			
		

> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040824a
> _Line:_ A line's point of origin is one corner of the caster's space. (If the caster's space fills more than one square, you can use the optional rule suggested for cones to select the point of origin.) The line extends from the point of origin in any direction the caster chooses and reaches as far as the spell's range (or until its line of effect is blocked). The rules regarding lines are somewhat muddled; however, a line affects anything in a square that the line passes though or touches. So, if you send a line straight down a gridline, it will affect the squares to either side of the line. Some people like to limit a line's effects to a width of 5 feet. If so, the caster chooses which side of the line gets affected when a line passes between two squares. (Choose a side when you aim the spell, and once you choose, you have to stick with that side.)


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## Jeff Wilder (Aug 24, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> The Pathfinder Line area of effect seems to officially use the literal text of 3.5, rather than the more generous reading of the 3.5 PHB example, which seemed to be what wotc was actually using in 3.5 & DDM.



Not to mention that the PFRPG rulebook also provides line _templates_, implying that lines are limited (as cones and bursts are) to a choice of one of those templates.

A little muddy indeed.


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## frankthedm (Aug 25, 2009)

Jeff Wilder said:


> Not to mention that the PFRPG rulebook also provides line _templates_, implying that lines are limited (as cones and bursts are) to a choice of one of those templates.
> 
> A little muddy indeed.



I don't think that is the intended implication, but as you point out, someone could end up reading it that way.


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## Nyeshet (Aug 25, 2009)

Personally, I found the text for regeneration in the preview of the Beastiary interesting. For the round after the creature received damage by the correct energy type, any damage will get through the regeneration. It is literally turned off like a switch (emphasis mine): 

[sblock="Regeneration"]Regeneration  (Ex)  ... Creatures with regeneration heal damage 
at a fixed rate, as with fast healing, but they cannot die as 
long as their regeneration  is still functioning  (although 
creatures with  regeneration  still  fall unconscious when 
their  hit  points  are  below  0).  Certain  attack  forms, 
typically  fire  and  acid,  cause  a  creature’s  regeneration 
to  stop  functioning  on  the  round  following  the  attack. 
*During this round, the creature does not heal any damage 
and  can  die  normally.*  The  creature’s  descriptive  text 
describes the types of damage that cause the regeneration 
to cease functioning....[/sblock]

I can see this causing some changes in how PCs fight some creatures. Now, after the caster burns the beasties, the fighter and rogue can get in some attacks past the regen - so long as they are near enough and quick enough to get in a hit. I can see this encouraging more team tactics and discouraging (or at least not encouraging) the need for a magical menagerie of weapons (flaming, etc) to deal with such creatures. Could be interesting, although it will take a bit to get used to.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2009)

Nyeshet said:


> Personally, I found the text for regeneration in the preview of the Beastiary interesting. For the round after the creature received damage by the correct energy type, any damage will get through the regeneration. It is literally turned off like a switch (emphasis mine):
> ...




You're right, I noticed that before and then forgot.  That's quite a big change, actually.

Another issue from the bestiary preview (and bonus bestiary) is the change in monster advancement.  All we know about now is the "advanced monster" template, though I'm hoping for more.


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## gwcummings (Aug 25, 2009)

RaZZer99 said:


> Familiars can no longer share spell effects that their masters cast on themselves. I don't understand why this was removed. Was this ripe for abuse? Familiars were borderline useful to begin with and now this change only weakens them more. What's the point of an improved familiar if you can't buff them together with yourself?




It was very ripe for abuse.  Nothing like a wizard *and* his familiar breathing fire or some such after the wizard casts Dragon's Breath.


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## pawsplay (Aug 26, 2009)

Non-class skills now cost 1 rank/level. Not only can you now have a studious Fighter, but qualifying for Prestige Classes just got easier. In fact, from a skill standpoint, in PF there is a perverse incentive to quality for a PrC with an unusual path, since you will get a nice selection of skills from the PrC anyway. For instance, a 5th level Fighter can quality for Assassin easily, and gets Acrobatics, Bluff, Disguise, and so forth as class skills. Happy birthday, fighter/assassin!


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## pawsplay (Aug 26, 2009)

gwcummings said:


> It was very ripe for abuse.  Nothing like a wizard *and* his familiar breathing fire or some such after the wizard casts Dragon's Breath.




Let us not forget, either, that Pun-Pun begins with a psion, a psicrystal, and his share powers ability...


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## uffinf (Aug 26, 2009)

Concentration checks are more difficult and the difficulty scales with level fairly well.

I had to do some side by side comparisions to make sure, Concentration check aren't automatic anymore as there is no way to boost them except when casting defensively or grappling via the feat .


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## Vurt (Aug 26, 2009)

Not that we ever used the massive damage rules much, but they've also been changed in Pathfinder.  Now you make a DC 15 Fort save if you lose more than half your hp in a single attack (minimum 50).


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 26, 2009)

Unless I'm missing something, it seems that an armor check penalty is only applied to the Swim skill once, rather than being doubled as it was in 3.5. Not something that will impact many campaigns, but it's one less exception to remember.


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## Zil (Aug 26, 2009)

The rules for stabilizing after falling to negative hit points have changed.  Gone is the old 10% chance per round to stabilize.  Now you must make a DC 10 Constitution Check (applying your negative hit point total as a penalty).


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## frankthedm (Aug 27, 2009)

Zil said:


> The rules for stabilizing after falling to negative hit points have changed.  Gone is the old 10% chance per round to stabilize.  Now you must make a DC 10 Constitution Check (applying your negative hit point total as a penalty).



Hmmm, makes stabilizing much easier overall. 

Paladin's bonded mount is a real mount again, not something to be put back in the Pokeball when it becomes an inconvenience. The Paladin can call the mount to his side as a full round action though, so _some_ of the 3.5 convenience stuck around possibly allowing for some loot transporting shenanigans.


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## Wicht (Aug 27, 2009)

If penalties reduce damage to less than 1, the attack still deals 1 _nonlethal_ damage.  

No more killer housecat complaints.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 27, 2009)

Wicht said:


> If penalties reduce damage to less than 1, the attack still deals 1 _nonlethal_ damage.
> 
> No more killer housecat complaints.




Yup, so I made sure to houserule that one back to 3E.


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## frankthedm (Aug 27, 2009)

Wicht said:


> If penalties reduce damage to less than 1, the attack still deals 1 _nonlethal_ damage.



Something new has been added! I like it, I LIKE IT!


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## pawsplay (Aug 27, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Something new has been added! I like it, I LIKE IT!




It's not perfect, but it it's interesting, and probably less cumbersome than the idea I had (if the maximum damage is less than 1, raise the damage by enough points to make the maximum damage 1, and subtract the same number of points from the attack roll. Thus, 1d3-4 would become 1d3-2 with a penalty of -2 to hit).


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## Twowolves (Aug 27, 2009)

And remember, nonlethal damage in excess of a character's full hit point total now converts to lethal damage instead of piling on into infinity (unless they regenerate).


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## William Ronald (Aug 27, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Hmmm, makes stabilizing much easier overall.
> 
> Paladin's bonded mount is a real mount again, not something to be put back in the Pokeball when it becomes an inconvenience. The Paladin can call the mount to his side as a full round action though, so _some_ of the 3.5 convenience stuck around possibly allowing for some loot transporting shenanigans.




A DM might want to handle this similar to the Ranyhyn in the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever.  In those books, the magical horses known as Ranyhyn know in advance when they are to be called by  their riders and will have set out previously to try to appear when needed.  (If this is the explanation that you use, it might unnerve a few people. )


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## Archade (Aug 27, 2009)

Things I've noticed ...

Protection from Evil cast on someone currently charmed or dominated doesn't automatically negate the effect, it allows a new save at +2.  

Mind you, that won't stop item creation characters in my campaign from creating rings of protection from evil, I would imagine.  Still a very handy effect...


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## Shazman (Aug 27, 2009)

pawsplay said:


> Let us not forget, either, that Pun-Pun begins with a psion, a psicrystal, and his share powers ability...




Actually Pun-Pun begins with a kobold sorcerer with a viper familiar and an obscure template from Serpeant Kingdoms.


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## Starbuck_II (Aug 27, 2009)

Zaister said:


> You can no longer take more nonlethal damage than your maximum hit point total. Any excess is lethal damage.




Wait, so Tarressque can now be killed by nonlethal?


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 27, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Wait, so Tarressque can now be killed by nonlethal?




The Tarrasque can regenerate, so no.

If you could stop its regeneration and somehow deal 1,716 points of nonlethal damage, though, you could conceivably beat the tarrasque to death. Good luck with that, though.


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## pawsplay (Aug 27, 2009)

Shazman said:


> Actually Pun-Pun begins with a kobold sorcerer with a viper familiar and an obscure template from Serpeant Kingdoms.




Does he? I must be growing senile.


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## coyote6 (Aug 27, 2009)

an_idol_mind said:


> The Tarrasque can regenerate, so no.
> 
> If you could stop its regeneration and somehow deal 1,716 points of nonlethal damage, though, you could conceivably beat the tarrasque to death. Good luck with that, though.




<insert obligatory Chuck Norris reference here>

I'm glad there's an exemption for critters with Regeneration; the thought of just being able to beat a troll to death didn't seem right.


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## Starbuck_II (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, one ciggeratte and you can beat a troll to death. You just have to overcome Regeneration each rd before it stops working.


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## joela (Aug 28, 2009)

gwcummings said:


> It was very ripe for abuse.  Nothing like a wizard *and* his familiar breathing fire or some such after the wizard casts Dragon's Breath.




Or the wizard using Shapechange to transform into said dragon....


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## Wicht (Aug 28, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Well, one ciggeratte and you can beat a troll to death. You just have to overcome Regeneration each rd before it stops working.




Any DM that allows this is being very generous.  Any party that tries this is being very stupid.

Personally I would rule that a cigarette did 1 point of nonlethal damage.  I would not allow it to do any appreciable fire damage.  Same goes for pipe coals.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 28, 2009)

What about lighting a stick/club/torch on fire with Prestidigitation?  
PRD's down right now, so I can't check if that spell still exists.  But assuming it does, that lasts an hour and can be cast infinite times per day now, so the caster always be "buffed" with it, ready to set a stick on fire.


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## Wicht (Aug 28, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> What about lighting a stick/club/torch on fire with Prestidigitation?
> PRD's down right now, so I can't check if that spell still exists.  But assuming it does, that lasts an hour and can be cast infinite times per day now, so the caster always be "buffed" with it, ready to set a stick on fire.





There is no in game difference between taking one round to light a torch with prestidigitation and taking one round to light a torch with flint and steel.  But even way back in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, the very best weapon a low level party could use against trolls was torches and branches pulled from the campfire.  Unless you were an archer with a bow.  Then the best weapon was to tie flaming rags to your arrows and use those.

And trolls aside, casters in the know always have prestidigitation memorized.  Its one of the most useful of the cantrips.


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## Andras (Aug 28, 2009)

If acid also by-passes Troll regeneration, Melf's Acid Arrow just got a lot handier.


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## Twowolves (Aug 28, 2009)

Andras said:


> If acid also by-passes Troll regeneration, Melf's Acid Arrow just got a lot handier.





Or the Conjuration specialist's Acid Dart ability. 

If only Energy Substitution were an official Pathfinder feat, you could Ray of Frost (sub fire) all day long.


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## an_idol_mind (Aug 28, 2009)

Twowolves said:


> If only Energy Substitution were an official Pathfinder feat, you could Ray of Frost (sub fire) all day long.




Energy Substitution isn't an official Pathfinder feat, but a sorcerer with an elemental bloodline can pull that stunt from 1st level on.


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## Xaaon (Aug 28, 2009)

Rangers get Medium Armor Proficiency again . 

Mithril Full plate counts as medium armor, but you still need Heavy armor prof.

Elven Curved Blade changed since Beta. (and isn't a giant kukri any more.)

Magic item creation is a crafting check now.

Dancing items changed 
*
Dancing*
 As a standard action, a _dancing weapon _can be loosed to attack on its own. It fights for 4 rounds using the base attack bonus of the one who loosed it and then drops. While dancing, it cannot make attacks of opportunity, and the person who activated it is not considered armed with the weapon. The weapon is considered wielded or attended by the creature for all maneuvers and effects that target items. While dancing, the weapon shares the same space as the activating character and can attack adjacent foes (weapons with reach can attack opponents up to 10 feet away). The dancing weapon accompanies the person who activated it everywhere, whether she moves by physical or magical means. If the wielder who loosed it has an unoccupied hand, she can grasp it while it is attacking on its own as a free action; when so retrieved, the weapon can't dance (attack on its own) again for 4 rounds.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 29, 2009)

Wicht said:


> There is no in game difference between taking one round to light a torch with prestidigitation and taking one round to light a torch with flint and steel.  But even way back in Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, the very best weapon a low level party could use against trolls was torches and branches pulled from the campfire.  Unless you were an archer with a bow.  Then the best weapon was to tie flaming rags to your arrows and use those.
> 
> And trolls aside, casters in the know always have prestidigitation memorized.  Its one of the most useful of the cantrips.




I mentioned Prestidigitation because it'd just be a standard action to light, without needing additional actions to start the fire.  Aside from drawing the flint and steel, a PC would need longer to start a fire with it.  Either way works, though.  Or a tindertwig.



Twowolves said:


> If only Energy Substitution were an official Pathfinder feat, you could Ray of Frost (sub fire) all day long.




Why wouldn't acid splash work?


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## noretoc (Aug 29, 2009)

Archade said:


> Things I've noticed ...
> 
> Protection from Evil cast on someone currently charmed or dominated doesn't automatically negate the effect, it allows a new save at +2.
> 
> Mind you, that won't stop item creation characters in my campaign from creating rings of protection from evil, I would imagine. Still a very handy effect...





And if the character makes the save, it is not gone, only surpressed during the time the protection is there.


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## Twowolves (Aug 29, 2009)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Why wouldn't acid splash work?




It would, but in my years of DMing I nver saw anyone actually cast Acid Splash, so I forgot about it. I guess with the at-will cantrips rule, I should start paying attention again. That and sneak attack working with those spells (1d3 acid, 5d6 sneak attack, it's like a breakfast grapefruit eye-squirt on steroids!).


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## Gnome (Sep 8, 2009)

Mithral weapons count as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.  This one I like, as it gives a good reason for mithral weapons to exist.


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## NewJeffCT (Sep 8, 2009)

frankthedm said:


> Hmmm, makes stabilizing much easier overall.
> 
> Paladin's bonded mount is a real mount again, not something to be put back in the Pokeball when it becomes an inconvenience. The Paladin can call the mount to his side as a full round action though, so _some_ of the 3.5 convenience stuck around possibly allowing for some loot transporting shenanigans.




Actually like the new stabilization rule.  Back in 1E and 2E, we just played you automatically stabilized a fallen companion as soon as you got to his square.  3E was much tougher, but this seems to be somewhere in between.


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## NewJeffCT (Sep 9, 2009)

Twowolves said:


> It would, but in my years of DMing I nver saw anyone actually cast Acid Splash, so I forgot about it. I guess with the at-will cantrips rule, I should start paying attention again. That and sneak attack working with those spells (1d3 acid, 5d6 sneak attack, it's like a breakfast grapefruit eye-squirt on steroids!).




My 3.5 campaign is going on 2 years old now (likely will switch to Pathfinder when done) and our party sorcerer actually ended up using Acid Splash fairly often at lower levels - especially when he ran out of spells.


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 9, 2009)

Gnome said:


> Mithral weapons count as silver for purposes of overcoming damage reduction. This one I like, as it gives a good reason for mithral weapons to exist.



 Wait, why would you use silver then if Mithral works just as well?


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## Voadam (Sep 9, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Wait, why would you use silver then if Mithral works just as well?



 Cost.

Mithral non armor items cost 500 gp/lb. Silver costs 2 gp for ammo, 20 gp for a light weapon, 90 gp for a one handed weapon and 180 gp for a two handed.

180 gp added for a silver greatsword that does -1 damage. 4,000 gp for that 8lb. greatsword to be mithral.

Mithral is just better, and costs commensurately more.


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## frankthedm (Sep 9, 2009)

Glad to see Mithral = Silver


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## thurgon (Sep 9, 2009)

uffinf said:


> Concentration checks are more difficult and the difficulty scales with level fairly well.
> 
> I had to do some side by side comparisions to make sure, Concentration check aren't automatic anymore as there is no way to boost them except when casting defensively or grappling via the feat .





At low levels the failure rate of Defensive casting will sit around the 40% mark, a tad too high for me.

Mid levels it drops to about 20%, and high levels it is the roll a one or success.  

I like how it gets better as you level, I do, I just think it starts a bit too high.

One more thing your primary casting stat adds to your concentration roll, so as you buff that you are also buffing your concentration rolls.  ie cloak of wisdom +4 add to your concentration roll for a druid.


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## Bad Paper (Sep 10, 2009)

I haven't played D&D in a year, since my groups collapsed.  I've been considering firing up a new game, but not the dreaded 4e.  [I've played 4e a few times -- the minion rule alone makes me retch]

So I was going to write up house rules like "clerics don't get heavy armor proficiency" and "mithral = silver" and whaddaya know?!  Pathfinder has all those!

So very excited.  Pathfinder ftw.  Thanks for this thread, too.  I came over here looking for just this kind of thread.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 10, 2009)

thurgon said:


> At low levels the failure rate of Defensive casting will sit around the 40% mark, a tad too high for me.
> 
> Mid levels it drops to about 20%, and high levels it is the roll a one or success.
> 
> ...




I houseruled it to be DC 10 +*3* per spell level.  So at first level, when mages are absolutely not overpowered, it's DC 10 or 13 and quite do-able, while still not automatic.  The DC rises faster, equalling PF's formula for spell level 5 and supassing it at higher levels.  While this does mean that high level spells are difficult to cast defenisvely, it also means when you attain high level, low level spells are a cinch.  I like it that way.  The most powerful spells are always difficult to cast in melee, the lower level ones become child's play.


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## frankthedm (Sep 10, 2009)

While there seem to be some vagueries with mounted combat still, Overrun at least looks to have been Unerrata'ed from the horrific nerf it suffered at the dawn of 3.5 to make absolutely sure your allies blocked your charge.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#overrun
*Nerfed 3.5 Overrun*
You can attempt an overrun as a standard action taken during your move [SNIP!]. (In general, you cannot take a standard action during a move; this is an exception.) With an overrun, you attempt to plow past or over your opponent (and move through his square) as you move. You can only overrun an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. You can make only one overrun attempt per round.

Now once again overrun looks like it ?might? be part of a charge.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html#overrun
*Pathmaker Overrun*
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Overrun feat, or a similar ability, initiating an overrun provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. If your overrun attempt fails, you stop in the space directly in front of the opponent, or the nearest open space in front of the creature if there are other creatures occupying that space.


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## porpentine (Sep 11, 2009)

Lots of little subtle bits and pieces:

* Stats: a 7 now gives 4 spend points (this is one of the few changes I dislike)

* Races: Gnomes get a few small leg-ups (heh); Sylvan for free, and the aforementioned speak with (all) animals and class level cantrips.

* Classes:
- Barbarians get more attractive skills (Acrobatics and Perception)
- Bards have some minor perks (but not enough); slightly better spell progression, Any alignment, non-disruptive shield use.
- Clerics can't harm and heal with Channeling at the same time (I mention this as something sometimes overlooked)
- Druids get scythe proficiency. They can wildshape into small elementals pretty early - 6th - which gives considerable mobility.
- Fighters have no speed loss in heavy armour from 7th (again, sometimes overlooked). Their weapon groups include some esoteric combinations, including Monk weapons
- Monks get significant perks; not only the improved flurry, but a bonus feat, a special improved Stunning Fist, and (less significantly) short sword proficiency
- Paladins and Rangers have an improved casting level (-3); if Pathfinder traits are being used, this can be reduced to CL-1.
- Rangers get medium armour, and the favoured foe bonus applies to attacks and damage
- Rogues can only take each talent once (sometimes overlooked)
- Sorcerers have UMD (and very nice too)
- Wizard specialists can cast opposition school spells at double slot cost
- Multiclassing with divergent levels carries no XP penalty

* Skills: tumbling much harder, tracking somewhat easier, healing possible, identifying magic cheaper. Linguistics gives a language per point plus skill uses. Perception can identify potions (is this new?). Concentration is no longer skill based.

* Feats: gained every odd level. Changes to Cleave, Power Attack, Toughness, and probably all combat maneuver feats. Quicken Spell works normally for spontaneous castings.

* Combat: grappling has changed in all directions. It's now possible to make attacks (including iteratives) with a light or one handed weapon, and to attack targets within reach. It's possible to spellcast, though the check is very difficult. To grapple requires two hands. More generally, CMB and CMD both include lots of rather fiddly little bonusses - appropriate attack bonusses for the former, and touch-AC-type stuff for the latter.

* Mundane Equipment: steps up for medium and heavy armour. Spiked chain nerfed. Blowgun a simple weapon, and poisons much more 
interesting. Mithril, as mentioned, acts as alchemical silver, but weapons
are mightily expensive.

* Magical Equipment: Int-boosters have hardwired, non-stacking skills attached. Magic weapons ignore certain DRs from +3 onwards. Amulets
of Mighty Fists can carry special powers without initial +1s. The XP
penalty for magic item creation is gone, and is replaced by a (rather easy)
DC check. Caster level is a prerequisite for magical arms and armour creation.

* Spells: changes to confusion, death, polymorph and summoning spells. Dispel Magic, Ray of Enfeeblement and Web amongst other hard-to-find
changes.

* Conditions: Confusion much nastier. Grappled generally less serious. 
Negative levels normally seem to give a new save each day in perpetuity.

- That's all I've got to date. Hope this is useful,

Porp.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 15, 2009)

Meteor Swarm now only checks resistance at the very end, meaning resist fire no longer cripples it.


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## Alzrius (Sep 16, 2009)

From the Pathfinder Bestiary Preview II, attacks against incorporeal creatures now work a little bit differently.

Nonmagical attacks against incorporeal creatures are still totally ineffective, but attacks from magic weapons and spells now deal half damage (this includes holy water used against incorporeal undead). Corporeal spells and effects that do not cause damage have a 50% chance of affecting an incorporeal creature.

And of course, force spells and effects still affect incorporeal creatures normally.


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## Salthorae (Sep 16, 2009)

porpentine said:


> * Stats: a 7 now gives 4 spend points (this is one of the few changes I dislike)
> ...
> * Magical Equipment: ...Caster level is a prerequisite for magical arms and armour creation




I'm confused on the first point above...?

Magical Equipment: Magical Arms and Armor had caster level prereq's in 3.5 already; minimum 3x's weapon/armor bonus (i.e. +5 required minimum 15th CL)...now whether people paid attention to those or not is another question.


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 17, 2009)

Salthorae said:


> Magical Equipment: Magical Arms and Armor had caster level prereq's in 3.5 already; minimum 3x's weapon/armor bonus (i.e. +5 required minimum 15th CL)...now whether people paid attention to those or not is another question.



3.5 errated away 70% of caster level requirements. 
[SBLOCK]
*Caster Level*​
_Dungeon Master’s Guide, 
_page 215
​​*Problem: *​*
*​*
*The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.​​*Solution: *​*
*​*
*Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster​level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
[/SBLOCK]
The only exceptions was when it explicitly required it like
weapons: " For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus"
Similarly for Armor.

Amulet of Mighty Fist: creator’s caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus.

Amulet of NA: caster level must be at least three times the amulet’s bonus;

Bracers of Armor: creator’s caster level must be at least two times that of the bonus placed in the bracer

And I think that was it.​


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## Salthorae (Sep 17, 2009)

Right, but porpentine was speaking about magical arms and armor specifically. 

So I was also talking about magical arms and armor specifically. Any of the special weapon/armor enhancements also have minimum caster levels as well.


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## porpentine (Sep 17, 2009)

Salth - quite right; it's not a change at all, now I check 3.5. 

(seems a bit odd in both editions - why keep CL as a requirement for arms/armour, and let it slide for just about everything else? Is a +3 weapon more taboo at low level than a nifty miscellaneous magic item?)

The 7 for 4: the point-buy system has changed in PF: a 7 stat now garners you more purchasing points than in 3.5. (I think an 18 is also more expensive, but don't have an old PHB to check; in any case I don't think an 18 is so much more costly that ardent minmaxers won't leap at a 7 dumpstat for a turbocharged primary/secondary).

I've seen suggestions that this was changed because the old point-buy system isn't open content, which might be true - but the upshot of the
specific change on the 7 is that minmaxing becomes more advantageous. Not great (though I'm looking forward to playing PF in most respects).


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## Stalker0 (Sep 17, 2009)

porpentine said:


> Salth - quite right; it's not a change at all, now I check 3.5.




The arms/armor prereq is not, however it is a big change for most wonderous items.

In 3.5, the CL for most items was just a measure of how difficult it was to dispel an item, and how long some of its effects last. In PF they are hard requirements. For example, pearls of power now require a very high caster level to craft.

BUT!! As far as I can tell, here's a workaround. PF gives you the ability to ignore a prereq for a +5 to the craft DC. You still have to meet the minimum CL to cast any spells the item requires, but if the CL of the item is higher than that, you can still make it with that +5 DC.


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## porpentine (Sep 17, 2009)

Getting off-topic, but as a disturbing eg of PF creation:

To create a Pearl of Power in PF would require a DC22 Spellcraft check, a bit of gold, a feat, and (a special requirement), ability to cast spells of the appropriate level. It is an unusually tricky creation. (But possibly not at hard as you suggest, Stalker - you don't have to be CL 17 yourself. This has always been confusing and still is).

So, 3rd level Elven Wizard, 18 Int: he has Craft Wondrous and - because he's a dedicated crafter - Focus (Spellcraft). So already he has a Spellcraft of 13. 

First he makes a Headband of Vast Intelligence+2 (2000gp, Spellcraft DC13 - autosuccess unless a 1 fails, haven't checked). Now he has 20 Int and Spellcraft 14. 

A Pearl of Power II is still a gamble, but even at 3rd he can make it with 2000gp and an 8+. 

Fortunately for the DM, his expected wealth is 3000 at 3rd, so he has to wait until 4th, when he succeeds on a 7+. At that level he also makes a Handy Haversack (dc19 if he ignores the requirement for the Secret Chest spell; his Spellcraft is 15, so that's what he does - it only costs 1000gp a shot). He stuffs the Haversack full of scrolls, and is already a walking powerhouse with Int 21, scrolls of everything (move action to retrieve), and probably a pearl, as well as a super-Pearl in his bonded item.

At 7th he makes a +4 Headband for 8000gp (dc a nonissue), bringing his Int to 23 and his Spellcraft to 19. His expected wealth is 23,500, so he also enchants his Bonded ring. He doesn't even need a feat for this (though he does need to be 7th level). He makes it a Ring of Counterspells (dc19 if he ignores the need for Imbue With Spell Ability: gp cost is 2000gp) which again is a nonissue. He casts Dispel Magic into the ring.

At 10th he has an expected wealth of 62k. He creates a +6 Headband for 16k. He now has an Int of 26, and Skill Focus gives him +6: his Spellcraft is 27. He crafts a Cloak of Etherealness (27.5k, dc25 if he ignores the spell requirement). Unless the DM is being tough (as he has to be) the wizard sells his old headbands and whatnot and invests in something else major - really the world is his oyster. Wondrous items are like a second spell list for him now.

Not so hard, eh?

To my mind it's actually way too easy. For an inexperienced DM, this stuff is a nightmare. Note that the Pearl is unusually tough - many items are much easier. Crafting magic items can easily become game-breaking.

I wish it was harder in PF, but it isn't. Since it's harder to buy magic items in the Pathfinder world, shouldn't it be harder to make them? In most cases, though, the DC is almost pointless. On top of that you can use Craft skills as creation feats in PF (edit: actually no; see below), and ignore requirements by hiking the DC, and wizards are enchanting their bonded items without even a feat investment (though since that's one non-sellable item, it's not such a big deal).


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## Atlatl Jones (Sep 17, 2009)

porpentine said:


> On top of that you can use Craft skills as creation feats in PF, and ignore requirements by hiking the DC, and wizards are enchanting their bonded items without even a feat investment (though since that's one non-sellable item, it's not such a big deal).



That's not quite right.  You can use Craft skills instead of Spellcraft, not instead of the item creation feats.  You can ignore some prerequisites by upping the DC, but the item creation feat is always required.  From  the PFSRD: "The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory."


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## porpentine (Sep 17, 2009)

Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of the Master Craftsman feat, but actually you still need to take Craft Wondrous or Craft Arms also.

It still means there are more magic items floating around. I'm not bothered about the realism issues (more magic items, yet in PF they're harder to find for sale) but I do feel, personally, that making magic item creation easier makes things harder for new DMs. It's a Can of Worms +5. The DC _sounds_ like it makes things more difficult, but it's not risky enough to do so. No XP costs either.


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## billd91 (Sep 17, 2009)

porpentine said:


> Yeah, you're right. I was thinking of the Master Craftsman feat, but actually you still need to take Craft Wondrous or Craft Arms also.
> 
> It still means there are more magic items floating around. I'm not bothered about the realism issues (more magic items, yet in PF they're harder to find for sale) but I do feel, personally, that making magic item creation easier makes things harder for new DMs. It's a Can of Worms +5. The DC _sounds_ like it makes things more difficult, but it's not risky enough to do so. No XP costs either.




I'm not at all sure how there are *more* magic items since the primary limiting factors are still in place - it takes at least one feat, they cost money, and they take time (the XP cost usually ended up being a very modest affair).
Surely, the character gung ho into making stuff in your examples would have been just as gung ho in 3.5.


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## porpentine (Sep 17, 2009)

Bill - he's not that gung-ho, really, in PC setup terms anyway: he's starting with a 16 Int before racial adjustments, and he's only invested 2 feats in crafting. If he was really mad keen he'd take Magical Aptitude and start with 20 Int, and maybe take some other creation feats later.

Would he have been crafting so much in 3.5? I did see players do it (and it made for scary wizards). But the XP cost was a limiting factor. Yes, the crafter ended up regaining xp faster, due to the level/CR/xp ratio thing - but he'd still be behind, sometimes a level, sometimes most of one, and that is going to put people off.

Are there more magic items in PF? Like I say, I'm not unduly worried about the realism of economics, but there are going to be more crafters, aren't there? A dwarven fighter with Master Craftsman and Craft Arms/Armour - surely there'll be a few of those around. Gnomes are obsessive crafters/professionals (+2 one skill), so Master Craftsman makes great sense for them too. Any non-spellcaster will still need two feats (MC and either craft wondrous or arms/armour), but the pool of magical crafters is probably expanded.

Anyway, that's not what concerns me. What I worry about, a little, is that the crafter-wizard is now more easily doable, without lagging in levels, and that can be a headache to DM if the DM isn't ready for it.


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## billd91 (Sep 17, 2009)

porpentine said:


> Bill - he's not that gung-ho, really, in PC setup terms anyway: he's starting with a 16 Int before racial adjustments, and he's only invested 2 feats in crafting. If he was really mad keen he'd take Magical Aptitude and start with 20 Int, and maybe take some other creation feats later.




It's not the setup, really. It's the behavior. A character could hit that pace of magic item creation, but you really have to be pretty gung-ho to do it, build or no.



porpentine said:


> Are there more magic items in PF? Like I say, I'm not unduly worried about the realism of economics, but there are going to be more crafters, aren't there? A dwarven fighter with Master Craftsman and Craft Arms/Armour - surely there'll be a few of those around. Gnomes are obsessive crafters/professionals (+2 one skill), so Master Craftsman makes great sense for them too. Any non-spellcaster will still need two feats (MC and either craft wondrous or arms/armour), but the pool of magical crafters is probably expanded.




There certainly could be more crafters in the party. But just as importantly, they don't have to be all dependent on the goodwill of the party spellcasters in order to have the same benefit. One of the main problems with the crafting rules in 3x is the way it allows spellcasters to get gear for half-price compared to other classes. That meant that the fairly carefully balanced  and cheaper pricing of defensive bonuses like resistance was less of an advantage over the more expensive enhancement bonus for spell-casting stat bonuses.
At least fighters and wizards, as far as magical equipment goes, can be put on a more even footing.



porpentine said:


> Anyway, that's not what concerns me. What I worry about, a little, is that the crafter-wizard is now more easily doable, without lagging in levels, and that can be a headache to DM if the DM isn't ready for it.




Having a couple of heavy crafters in a game I'm running, the XP cost has never been a big problem. The lag ends up being quite infrequent, when it appears at all. Money and time have proven to be much bigger limiters.


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## Salthorae (Sep 18, 2009)

I would say that if you're really worried about a PC crafting... don't give them enough downtime to craft lots of items.

My concern would be more of the in-game "magic item-onomics". If it is "easier" to craft magic, such that no casters can do so, why is it also true that magic items (as I read the core book) are harder in general to purchase?


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Sep 18, 2009)

Salthorae said:


> My concern would be more of the in-game "magic item-onomics". If it is "easier" to craft magic, such that no casters can do so, why is it also true that magic items (as I read the core book) are harder in general to purchase?




I believe _Pathfinder_ assumes that characters with the requisite character level-- whether casters or Master Craftsmen-- are considerably rarer, and that the source of most magic items will either be the PCs themselves, or figures similar to the PCs from earlier generations.


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## porpentine (Sep 18, 2009)

Well, this is now off-topic, and we should probably move it to another thread, but...

The issue isn't wizard vs fighter. I guess the example progression I suggested was misleading. The point about the wizard crafters I've seen optimally played is that they don't just create items for themselves. The headband+2 at 3rd is punchy, but that alone would be suboptimal. No, the real crafter crafts _matching dinky pairs of winged boots for the entire party_. (Or stat boosters - even easier).

So in PF, the fighter can also be crafting wondrous, as can the gnomish rogue. You mention time constraints in your own game. You can see where I'm going with that. I'm guessing you're an experienced DM, but not every game-runner is going to know how to handle a party who takes shifts each evening making matching wondrous items, or who end up with excess wealth via creation (do you adjust treasure received in a published adventure? Of course you do, but how long before the new DM cottons on to that?), or who can render encounters redundant through group flight/levitation etc. 

And really, is the example elven wiz above such a heavyweight creator even in time terms? He's crafting at 3rd, 7th and 10th levels...hardly turbo-charged, over a campaign. It depends on the levelling rate, but crafting can get a lot more busy than that.

There's nothing exceptional about this. Traditionally, the wizard has been set up to do this as a class. To craft is to play to the class strengths. In 3.5 the metamagic feats were mostly so-so, so where else were the wizard bonus feats going but on crafting?

The same goes in PF, and the new crafting rules don't alleviate the potential issues. In fact, crafting is a smoother ride without XP costs (which do add up, if you're crafting regularly), and the bonded item and new feat rules mean the wizard doesn't have to work alone.

If it's not a problem in your game, Bill, great - it probably isn't in most, because most players can't be bothered to craft. But it can be an issue. It's always been a fuzzy rules area, with lots of power to exploit, and PF doesn't address the potential exploitations; if anything it makes them more accessible.

As to downtime: yes, that's a good controlling factor. But the party can still create on the hoof, and if there's teaming up they can work pretty fast.

In short: I wish crafting was more difficult or risky. I would much prefer the DC to mean something. As it is it's pretty pointless. My hunch is that the creation DC was intended to balance out the loss of XP costs, but it doesn't do that (to my mind) because the chance of failure is so small.


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## pawsplay (Sep 18, 2009)

Right now I think the main limiting factor is that players are likely to feel affronted by crafting cursed items, which will happen from time to time. Convsersely, some characters will have very high checks, but I think investing some traits into becoming an expert crafter is a balancing factor in itself.


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## Twowolves (Sep 20, 2009)

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but instead of adding +2 Hardness and +10hp per +1 enhancement bonus, now it simply states that you can't damage a weapon unless the weapon you are sundering with has an equal or higher enhancement bonus. A VERY good reason not to get a +1 weapon with 4 special abilities then rely on Magic Weapon spells to make up the difference.


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 20, 2009)

Twowolves said:


> I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but instead of adding +2 Hardness and +10hp per +1 enhancement bonus, now it simply states that you can't damage a weapon unless the weapon you are sundering with has an equal or higher enhancement bonus. A VERY good reason not to get a +1 weapon with 4 special abilities then rely on Magic Weapon spells to make up the difference.




Isn't the standard adventuring affar is cast Greater Magic Weapon? That makes the weapon higher than +1.


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## pawsplay (Sep 20, 2009)

Using character ability scores plus size modifiers for shapechanging spells is the same as the idea I had a while back, so I therefore approve. As it was, melee druids only had three ability scores to worry about while clerics had six. Plus, I think it works well with the idea of _shape_ changing; you get some strength and speed commensurate with your new size, but your nature isn't completely altered.


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## Twowolves (Sep 20, 2009)

Starbuck_II said:


> Isn't the standard adventuring affar is cast Greater Magic Weapon? That makes the weapon higher than +1.





Yeah, I meant Greater Magic Weapon.

But in any case, no one is dropping 315gp on an adamantine longsword and cleaving +4 weapons with it anymore. Especially giants with adamantine daggers and power attack.


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## arbados (Sep 24, 2009)

delete.  see below


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## arbados (Sep 24, 2009)

_



			I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but instead of adding +2 Hardness and +10hp per +1 enhancement bonus, now it simply states that you can't damage a weapon unless the weapon you are sundering with has an equal or higher enhancement bonus. A VERY good reason not to get a +1 weapon with 4 special abilities then rely on Magic Weapon spells to make up the difference.
		
Click to expand...


_

Not sure where you got this from?  On page 174 in the bottom left hand corner it still states that each +1 of enchantment bonus adds 2 to the hardness and +10 to the items hp's.  I like the concept you mentioned, but just would like to know where it states this.

Thanks.


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## arbados (Sep 24, 2009)

OK, here are all the things I picked up on reading the book.  It is pretty hefty so watch out!  A few of these have been taken directly from this site so I thank you for the pick-up's and apologize for the repeat  Anyways here is what I got.  Hope it helps.
*
NEW RULE CHANGES*

Half-elves, no longer get the ability to notice secret doors upon passing within 10-feet.

Clerics no longer start out with heavy armor proficiency.

Bardic performance is now usable a certain number of rounds per day instead of times per day (4 + charisma modifier + 2 for every new level beyond first).

Bard performances last only until the bards stops performing (no additional rounds after the performance is complete).

The Monk gains stunning fist at 1st level as a bonus feat.  At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his stunning fist (fatigue, sicken, staggered, blind, deafen or paralyze). The condition replaces the stunning of the target for 1 round and these effects do not stack with themselves, however additional hits do increase the duration.

Certain bardic performances require allies to both see and hear the bards performance in order to gain the benefit (inspire heroics).

Clerics can't harm and heal with Channeling at the same time

Druids can now wildshape into small elementals pretty early - 6th level- which gives considerable mobility.

Fighters have no speed loss in heavy armor from 7th. Their weapon groups include some esoteric combinations, including Monk weapons

Monks get significant perks; not only the improved flurry, but a bonus feat, a special improved Stunning Fist, and (less significantly) short sword proficiency.

Paladins and Rangers have an improved casting level (-3).

If a specialist wizard casts a spell from a prohibited school it now costs them twice as many spell slots. For example if mage armor is a spell from one of your prohibited schools it would now cost you 2 of your 1st level spell slots to cast as compared to one for every other spell.  There is no longer the restriction of NOT gaining your specialist school ability if you prepare a spell from a prohibited school.  You always gain your specialist school ability regardless of whether you prepare a spell from a prohibited school you only need to pay two spell slots to prepare the spell.

If you put a rank in a class skill you gain a +3 bonus to that skill.  This is only for class skills.  There is no longer the need to use 2 skill ranks to get 1 rank for a cross-class skill.  There is no such thing.  Each rank you put into any skill equals one.  The only difference is you get the +3 bonus added to a class skill.

Humans no longer receive weapon proficiency with one martial weapon at first level.  It is gone.

All races pick 1 favored class.  No longer are certain races pigeon holed into having pre-generated favored classes for them from the rule book.  Pick what you want so there is no worry about xp penalties and you gain the bonus HP or Skill point when going up a level in the favored class (see below).

When going up a level in your favored class you get to choose whether you wish an additional skill point or hp added to your character.

Races which previously got a +2 to specific perception checks only (gnome used to get a +2 to touch and smell only) now get them to all perception checks.

Half-orc, Half-elf and Human all get a +2 to an ability of their choosing when they begin play. No standard bonuses.

Rangers get Medium Armor Proficiency again. They were only light before.

Half-elf  gets to choose two favored classes. 

Turn Undead is now a feat and no longer comes "free of charge" for clerics and paladins.  Additionally, undead no longer cower when turned and are now panicked for 1 minute.  Intelligent undead are allowed another save to resist the effect each round.

Combat Maneuver Bonus is now both a CMB and a Combat Maneuver Defense to resist.  Before it was simply a CMB roll vs. the static CMB of the defender.  Now the combat defense adds your Dexterity Modifier to the number which makes the static number a little harder to beat.  It is now the rolled CMB against the static CMD (which is now slightly improved).

Elves no longer go into a 4-hour trance. They must sleep for 8 hours just like the other races.

There is no more racial hp bonus at 1st level. HP's are back to the same old way they used to be. I give max at 1st level and then roll from there.

Armor check penalty is only applied to the Swim skill once, rather than being doubled as it was in 3.5.

Lunge feat allows a character the opportunity to have reach.

The Improved Great Fortitude, Will and Reflex save feats have changed.  They now allow for the character to re-roll that type of save 1x a day.  Keep in mind that there is still the typical Great Fortitude, Will and Reflexes which allows for the +2 bonus to the saves.  This is just the second tier.

Great Cleave is different in that in 3.5 you had to knock the creature down to get an additional attack (was difficult).  Now all you need to do is simply successfully hit an individual within your reach to get another attack against another within your reach.  You can only get 1 attack per individual.

Step-Up feat now worries spell casters big time.  When an adjacent foe attempts to make a 5-foot step away from you (lets say a spell caster so they are able to cast their spell without an AoO), you may also make a 5-foot step as long as you end adjacent to them.  This is an immediate action!

If your caster level is lower than the required for casting level for the spell on a scroll you must make a Caster level Check DC = scrolls caster level + 1.  If check fails you must make a Wisdom Check DC 5 to avoid a mishap.

Staff usually has 10 charges.  When charges are used caster can imbue one charge back into staff by casting an equal or higher level spell into the staff.  This uses up that spell slot on your list for the day.  A staff cannot gain more than 1 charge per day and a caster cannot imbue more than 1 staff a day. 

Staff uses wielders ability modifier, feats, etc to determine effect (including DC).

To fire a heavy catapult you must make a special check against a DC 15 using only your BAB , intelligence modifier, range increment penalty and the appropriate modifiers.  You gain a +2 to this check for every previous miss (maximum of +10) if you can see where the miss hit.  You gain a +1 per previous miss (maximum +5) if you cannot see where the miss hit.  If missed roll the D8 to determine the direction of the miss and then the D4 to determine distance of 5-foot intervals.  It requires a Strength check DC 15 to winch the arm of a heavy catapult and a DC 10 to winch the arm of a light catapult.  A Reflex save (usually DC 15) allows for half damage from a catapult.

If a magic item skill check fails by 5 or more the item created is cursed.

Detecting a curse is like detecting regular magic except that the DC is 10 higher than the needed check.  If check is successful then the curse can be detected.  If the check is successful to detect the magic, but is not beat by 10 or more thus detecting the curse then the original magical "good" intent of the item is revealed.  The nature of a curse can also be determined by using the standard DC to identify the magic of the item. 

The remove curse DC is equal to 10 + the cursed items caster level.

A wand may be used while grappling.

Intelligent item saves are based off of their highest mental ability score.

Magic item creation is a skill check (usually spellcraft, but at times a profession or craft).  You are still required to have the necessary feat.  The DC to create an item is 5 + the caster level for the item.  Failing the check means that the item does not function (time and material cost are consumed) and failing by 5 or more results in a cursed item.  

The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each pre-requisite the caster does not meet.

If the spell for completing a magic item requires a costly material component the price equals the base price + any extra price for the material component.

Creating a magic item requires a minimum of 8 hours (with the exception being scrolls and potions, which take as little as 2 hours to create).  Potions and scrolls which have a price between 251-1000 gp's take 8 hours to complete.  Caster can create no more than 1 magic item per day.

By increasing the craft DC by 5 the time to complete a magic item can be accelerated to 4 hours of work per 1000 gps base price cost (instead of 8 hours).

Caster can only work 8 hours a day on a magic item (cannot be rushed).

If adventuring or work being performed in a distracting or dangerous environment while trying to create a magic item you net only 1/2 the amount of progress that you actually put in (4 hours for 8 hours of time).  This time is not considered continuous. 

Days needed to create a magic item need not be consecutive.

Can only work on 1 item at a time.  If you start a new item while still working on another all the materials used on the "under-construction" item are wasted and you must once again start from scratch.

If an ability score drops to 0 you fall unconscious until your ability score is brought above.  However, if your constitution score falls to 0 you die instead.

Ability damage and other affects caused by disease, poison or a curse cannot be cured while the affliction is still active.

Creatures holding their breath in an inhaled poison area have a 50% chance per round of still having to make a save against the effect.

Multiple doses of the same poison stack (Inhaled and ingested poisons can inflict multiple doses at once).  Each dose of poison increases the DC to resist and cure by +2 and extends the duration by 1/2 its total duration.

The caster level check to cure a poison or disease is equal to its save DC.

One save/removal cures the effects of multiple poisons of the same kind, but not different types.

Readying a poison on a weapon/item causes the individual a 5% chance of effecting themselves (and making a save).  This does not consume the poison.

If wielding a poisoned weapon and you roll a natural 1 you are the subject of the poison and must make a save.  The poison is consumed by this.

Protection from Evil cast on someone currently charmed or dominated doesn't automatically negate the effect, it allows a new save at +2.

Nonlethal damage in excess of a character's full hit point total now converts to lethal damage instead of piling on into infinity (unless they regenerate).

Armor check penalty is only applied to the Swim skill once, rather than being doubled as it was in 3.5.

The rules for stabilizing after falling to negative hit points have changed. Gone is the old 10% chance per round to stabilize. Now you must make a DC 10 Constitution Check (applying your negative hit point total as a penalty) or lose 1 hp. 

If penalties reduce damage to less than 1, the attack still deals 1 nonlethal damage.

Concentration checks are more difficult and the difficulty scales with level fairly well. There is no longer the skill and now it is effectively a caster level check.

A natural 1 on a failed saving throw causes a magic item on your possession to also make a saving throw.

Identifying potions requires a Perception check DC 15 + the spell level of potion.

The Ranger's favored enemy bonus now applies to attack rolls as well as damage rolls.

If you are hit by a non-damaging spell when casting a spell it requires a Concentration Check equal to the spells save DC + level of the spell you are trying to cast (which is D20 + caster level + relevant ability modifier - see below.

Concentration checks are now a D20 + caster level + relevant ability modifier of the type of caster you are.  For a druid/cleric it would be wisdom.  For a wizard it would be intelligence.  For a sorcerer/bard it would be charisma.

To cast a spell while being grappled you must make a Concentration check DC 10 + the grappler's CMB + the level of the spell you are trying to cast.  This of course is for spells which only require a verbal component.

When an unarmed character attacks another unarmed character there is no attack of opportunity for either.  They just make attacks.  This is only if neither have the unarmed strike ability such as a monk.

Charging characters gain a +2 to CMB for bull rush in addition to their +2 to hit.

Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel magic both allow unlimited caster levels.  If you are 20th level you gain a +20 to dispel for both dispel magic and greater dispel magic.  However, greater dispel magic allows you to gain a +4 to counterspelling, effect multiple targets, dispel more than 1 magic per individual and can dispel magic which only a remove curse spell can.

If you make your save in an entangle spell you can move at your normal speed.  However, if you remain in the area you need to make a new save each round.

Remove Curse, Remove Disease and Cure Poison all require caster level checks (D20 + your level) to remove the effect.  No more guarantee.  You must beat the DC of the poison, disease or curse with your caster level check.

When in rope trick you cannot pull up, hide or remove the rope which you climbed up.  It remains there!

When summoning monsters there are certain ones which when called will always be your alignment.  When summoning certain creatures if you are good they gain the celestial template, if you are evil they gain the fiendish template and if you are neutral you choose which they have.

A Reflex save DC 15 allows an individual to avoid catching on fire.  Rolling on the floor simply allows a +4 to your Reflex save.

Characters are dead when their hp's equal or exceed their constitution score.  No minimum or maximum.

Diagonal movement is once again 1 for the first box, 2 for the next box and then alternating from there.  In other words it would be 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, etc.


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## Twowolves (Sep 24, 2009)

arbados said:


> Not sure where you got this from?  On page 174 in the bottom left hand corner it still states that each +1 of enchantment bonus adds 2 to the hardness and +10 to the items hp's.  I like the concept you mentioned, but just would like to know where it states this.
> 
> Thanks.




I rediscovered page 174 the other night. I was quoting from the magic item description chapter. While I think the +2/+10 is a cut & paste error for that section, it is possible the designers did intend for both results. In 3.5, the part about the extra hardness is also in the DMG's magic item section, and was in fact corrected in the errata.

I guess someone should ask Jason about the +2/+10 thing on the Paizo boards.


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## Drkfathr1 (Sep 24, 2009)

*on the topic of the ease of magic item creation...*

An easy solution to this that I've found is to limit the amount of treasure the players get, but you can only do that to a certain degree, maybe holding up some items by a level or two. 

The other solution, which works better, is that characters with the item creation feats must also obtain the "formulas" for creating any specific item, kind of like learning new spells. I might let them gain 1 free one each level, but otherwise they'll have to find them through research and exploration (maybe having some turn up as treasure), or reverse engineer them from an existing item they've found. 

That way, they can only create items I decide to let them find the instructions for. (Which I would be fairly liberal with, but more powerful items would be held back, and anything potentially broken could be left out entirely). 

Also thinking about making Wands Arcane only, mainly to get rid of the pesky Wands of Cure Light Wounds, which I find to be a bit cheesy.


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## Twowolves (Sep 24, 2009)

arbados said:


> OK, here are all the things I picked up on reading the book.  It is pretty hefty so watch out!
> 
> **<gratuitous major snippage>**




Several of these are the same as in 3.5. 

I also noted that while the armor check penalty for swim isn't doubled, the fact itself was mentioned twice in your list! Oh sweet sweet irony.

Otherwise, it looks pretty spot on from what I've seen, minus the minimum enhancement bonus to damage magic weapons thing I mentioned above. Good job.


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## buzzgunner (Oct 1, 2009)

porpentine said:


> Lots of little subtle bits and pieces:
> ...
> * Classes:
> ...
> ...



This statement confuses me. Why is having UMD a big deal for Sorcerers when they can _already_ use pretty much any magic device automatically under 3.5 rules (just like wizards.)  At least, that's how I read the 3.5 DMG (pg. 212).

Or have I been running it wrong all this time?


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## Ahnehnois (Oct 1, 2009)

buzzgunner said:


> This statement confuses me. Why is having UMD a big deal for Sorcerers when they can _already_ use pretty much any magic device automatically under 3.5 rules (just like wizards.)  At least, that's how I read the 3.5 DMG (pg. 212).
> 
> Or have I been running it wrong all this time?




The skill allows them to use divine items, i.e. healing, which they can't normally do.


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## buzzgunner (Oct 1, 2009)

Ahnehnois said:


> The skill allows them to use divine items, i.e. healing, which they can't normally do.



Ah, OK. That makes a _LOT_ more sense now!  Thanks!


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