# Force damage question



## Anardyll (Nov 14, 2003)

Hi rule gurus 

Where in 3.5 rulebooks can I find rules about force damage and force spells?

Do force damage ignore hardeness?
Can I break the door with magic missiles?
Are there any other force damage spells?
Can I invent for example force ball (like fireball but made of force)? What spell level it would be?

Thanks in advance,

Anardyll


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## Darklone (Nov 14, 2003)

Spell descriptions usually say whether they can harm objects (Magic Missile not IIRC)...


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## diaglo (Nov 14, 2003)

Anardyll said:
			
		

> Can I invent for example force ball (like fireball but made of force)? What spell level it would be?





magic of faerun has an idea similar to this...using lightning, sonic, cold, etc...

it is still a 3rd lvl spell.


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## Shayuri (Nov 14, 2003)

Hi rule gurus 

-- Hi!

Where in 3.5 rulebooks can I find rules about force damage and force spells?

-- There's really no separate section. The only official rule that's special about force damage is the way it can affect incorporeal and ethereal beings...and that effect is noted under the description for those two states.

Do force damage ignore hardeness?

-- Not unless the spell or effect specifically says that it does, just like any other spell or effect.

Can I break the door with magic missiles?

-- Magic Missile is specifically noted as not harming objects; only creatures. (note that constructs, including animated objects, ARE creatures by the definitions of the game)

Are there any other force damage spells?

-- Spiritual Weapon, Mage's Sword, Blade Barrier, to name a few. Non-core sources add a ton more.

Can I invent for example force ball (like fireball but made of force)? What spell level it would be?

-- I would be tempted to notch it up a level, since force damage is really hard to block (as opposed to elemental damage, which has many counters), and can affect beings that are otherwise hard to effect. It's really up to the GM though.

Thanks in advance,

-- You're welcome in hindsight.


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## kreynolds (Nov 14, 2003)

Anardyll said:
			
		

> Do force damage ignore hardeness?




Yes. EDIT: Actually, let me change this to "maybe". I was thinking it was the same as acid and sonic, but now I'm not so sure, and I can't find a reference.



			
				Anardyll said:
			
		

> Can I break the door with magic missiles?




No. See the spell description.



			
				Anardyll said:
			
		

> Are there any other force damage spells?




I believe there are some in MaoF. Force Wave, or something like that.



			
				Anardyll said:
			
		

> Can I invent for example force ball (like fireball but made of force)? What spell level it would be?




If your DM allows it, yes. The DMG has guidelines for new spell research. I'd probably place it at 5th-level, but I'd round it out a little bit to make it worth it, like maybe extending the radius of the spread by 5 feet.


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## Altamont Ravenard (Nov 14, 2003)

Anardyll said:
			
		

> Can I invent for example force ball (like fireball but made of force)? What spell level it would be?




If you want to leave it at 3rd, you could reduce the damage to 1d4/level, instead of 1d6.

AR


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## AeroDm (Nov 14, 2003)

The force descriptor is one of the msot powerful descriptors in that it affects incorporeal and the like, but also blocks incorporeal.  Monte Cook's AU has a little blurb in that back about the force descriptor iirc.

Making a force fireball is much more powerful than a regular fireball.  Nothing has Force Resistance (as compared to fire resistance) and it would affect everything.  I'd make it at least 4th level.


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## Anardyll (Nov 15, 2003)

about forceball dmg: I made comparison with sonic spells like shout and greater shout: they do about 2d6 dmg per 3levels of a caster. May be 5d4 for the 4th level spell would be OK? 

and about ignoring hardness: yes, I haven't found any references too   , but if it hits ethereal creatures, it should somehow bypass material objects through ethereal plane... or it shouldn't


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## Anardyll (Nov 19, 2003)

bump


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## Caliban (Nov 19, 2003)

Force effects do not bypass hardness any more than Acid or Sonic damage does. 

Sonic damage is reduced by Hardness, it's just not cut in half before you apply the damage to an object.  

Force damage is reduced by Hardness, it can just affect incorporeal creatures without a miss chance and it's not reduced before applying the damage to an object.  (Incidentally, this means that _magic missiles_ are useless against anything with a hardness of 5 or more.)


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## kreynolds (Nov 19, 2003)

Caliban said:
			
		

> Sonic damage is reduced by Hardness, it's just not cut in half before you apply the damage to an object.




You sure? The text says...

"Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit."

It doesn't mention hardness. When sonic energy damages creatures, there's no hardness. Electricity, fire and cold all mention hardness, but acid and sonic don't. I suppose I could understand the argument that "apply it normally" refers to Hardness four paragraphs up, which states that all objects have hardness. So, applying it normally would mean applying the hardness.

Hm.


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## James McMurray (Nov 19, 2003)

This month's dragon magazine talks about this. Althogh most of us can agree that Mr. Sage isn't always playing the sameg ame as we are, here's what he has to say (paraphrased):

acid and soncic attacks ignore hardness
hardness applies to electricity and cold
hardness applies to cold damage
force effects ignore hardness

This is all in regards to a question about attacking animated objects, and he basically says that you don't halve the energy damage versus animated objects because they are creatures, but they do still get their hardness.


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## kreynolds (Nov 19, 2003)

That's right. Page 101. I knew I'd seen that somewhere.


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