# I got Races of the Wild, you got the questions



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

The postman just carried in the shiny (well, not actually) package containing said book. I haven't read the book yet, but post your questions and I'll answer them as soon as I can.


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## Antara (Feb 7, 2005)

Well again: Any new cleric domains?


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## Naathez (Feb 7, 2005)

I'm curious about something I think I read in a preview... A race which should be "the embodiment of the wild" or something like that.

What about them?

And are Raptorans the same as they were previewed?


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## Vecna (Feb 7, 2005)

Can you give me some info about the Arcane Hierophant?


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## Klaus (Feb 7, 2005)

Catfolk! Spill them beans on them Catfolk!

What ability adjustments? What traits? What LA? I wanna know!

:ant, pant::


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 7, 2005)

What do the elves get as far as level substiutions?

Any psionic support in this product?

What are the minor races like? Any winners? (My vote for previous winners include Whisper Gnome from RoS and Half-Ogre in RoD.)


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## Knight Otu (Feb 7, 2005)

Which of the races gets the most attention? Elves, halflings, or raptorans?

Besides centaurs, gnolls, catfolk and killoren, what other "minor" races are present?

Could you give a general description of the killoren?

Which new monsters are in the book?


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## Illvillainy (Feb 7, 2005)

How are the feats?


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## Bill Muench (Feb 7, 2005)

What prestige classes are included?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

Antara said:
			
		

> Well again: Any new cleric domains?




Yes this time: Scy Domain, for raptorans.



			
				Naathez said:
			
		

> I'm curious about something I think I read in a preview... A race which should be "the embodiment of the wild" or something like that.




Should be the "killoren", a newly risen race of fey who combine nature's patience and power with humanoid ambition bound to nature itself.

They are a ecl+0 fey race who cannot wield cold iron weapons without getting a penalty on attack solls. Their most salient ability is Manifest Nature's Might, with which they can take on one of three aspects and gain certain bonuses and abilities (and even their physical appearance changes. the aspects are ancient, destroyer and hunter.



> And are Raptorans the same as they were previewed?




Yes, it seems that way.



			
				Vecna said:
			
		

> Can you give me some info about the Arcane Hierophant?




Mystic Theurge-like class, but for arcanists and druids. Most noteworthy prerequsiste is the BAB +4, which means that they need more than 3 levels of each wizard and druid.

They get the medim BAB, strong will saves, and a couple of abilities (and +1/+1 spellcasting): They can ignore spell failure in "druid armor", retain wild shape, their animal companion becomes their familiar (the old familiar is dismissed without XP penalty) And can channel spells through animals or plants (no plant creatures, only trees and the like) they have touched, a couple of times per day.



			
				Klaus said:
			
		

> Catfolk! Spill them beans on them Catfolk!




I won't reprint the whole entry of course, but some salient points: They're fast, with +4 dex, +2 cha, some other abilities, and have LA +1. Ithink they're quite strong for their LA, but not necessarily too strong (an aasimar has less LA, but gets resistances and the native outsider treatment)


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> What do the elves get as far as level substiutions?




Elf paladin (surprisingly). They can smite at range with bows, get another sort of aura (freedom) and can get a unicorn as special mount (which lags behind on hd advancement and such)

Elf ranger: Gets only d6, but 8+ skills, gets better bonuses for favoured enemies when choosing the racial enemies. Can get an elven hound companion (magical beast, but treated as animal for ranger abilities) and can exchange the favoured enemy on level 10 for special bonuses against drow/drider spells and spider poison.

Elf Wizard: Gan "specialize" as generalist - one extra free spell per level, and one extra spell slot of the highest level. Can double the familiar skill bonus (move silently for cat) in exchange for deliver touch and speak with other animals, and has a different set of bonus feats on level 5 (archery related)



> Any psionic support in this product?




There are 3 psionic powers, so the support is more or less on the level of the other books (though no psionic PrC this time)



> What are the minor races like?




Of the minor races, we already know the centaur and gnoll. The catfolk is reprinted from Miniatures (I don't know whether they got changed from there), so the only new minor race is killoren. This means, surprisingly, that we do not get any elven sub-races.



> Any winners? (My vote for previous winners include Whisper Gnome from RoS and Half-Ogre in RoD.)




The Killoren look kinda interesting, as you can change the racial package every morning (with the different aspects) to gain different skill bonuses (or the smite nature's enemies feature for aspect of the destroyer)



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Which of the races gets the most attention? Elves, halflings, or raptorans?




The racial chapters (describing the races) are more or less equally large (elves 5-36, halflings 37-63, raptorans 65-90). The feats, PrC's and the like seem to be balanced, too

[/QUOTE]
Besides centaurs, gnolls, catfolk and killoren, what other "minor" races are present?[/QUOTE]

Only those 4



> Which new monsters are in the book?




No real monsters here, but 4 creatures (mostly animals):

Braxashulty: Goatlike creatures the halflings bred as beasts of burden, guard animal, and food source.
Chordevoc: owl-like bird, also bred by halflings
Dire Hawk: Well, a dire hawk, often animal companion for raptorans
Elven Hound: Magal beast - practically a dog with the typical elven resistances and immunities.



			
				Illvillainy said:
			
		

> How are the feats?




There's at least one feat for each of the minor races, and several for the major races (raptorans get a lot of flight-related feats). Beyond that, we have feats that deal with nature-related characters (druids, rangers) and archers. It even contains 3 tactical feats (one for small creatures, one for flying creatures, one for archers)



			
				Bill Muench said:
			
		

> What prestige classes are included?




Arcane Hierophant (Arcanist/Druid)
Champion of Corellon Larethian (For elf warriors with high dex and int in heavy armor)
Luckstealer (halfling spellcaster with luck-related abilities)
Ruathar (elf-friend/star-friend: character who did the elves a great service and receives elven blessings. Only 3 levels)
Skypledged (raptoran priest with aerial abilities and divine spellpool)
Stormtalon (raptoran aerial warrior)
Whisperknive (halfling rogue and vengeance taker)
Wildrunner (elf or half-elf completely embracing nature, becomes fey in the end)


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## cyferwolf (Feb 7, 2005)

Do they have any new spells for rangers that stand out?


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## Darkness (Feb 7, 2005)

Elven Hound? The cooshee is finally back, is it?


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## Cold0 (Feb 7, 2005)

> Champion of Corellon Larethian (For elf warriors with high dex and int in heavy armor)




Could you explain more on details the abilities, prereq. ect of this class?


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 7, 2005)

Druid support...that's enough for me to buy it right there.


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

cyferwolf said:
			
		

> Do they have any new spells for rangers that stand out?




Surprisingly, rangers only get two spells (but there aren't that many spells in there i general, so that's OK I think):
Raptor's sight on 1st-level (bonus on spot checks, with enough ranks in spot, you take only half the normal range penalty)
And Woodland Veil on 2nd (a kind of mass camouflage: +5 to hide and move silently for one or more creatures, none of which may be more than 30 feet apart, even after the spell is cast. The target can see and hear each other normally)



			
				Darkness said:
			
		

> Elven Hound? The cooshee is finally back, is it?




Yes, they are.



			
				Cold0 said:
			
		

> Could you explain more on details the abilities, prereq. ect of this class?



Nonevil elf with BAB +7, ranks in diplomacy and Know(reli), worshipper of Corellon (of course)
Must be profiecient with all martial weapons and heavy armor, and have combat expertise, dodge, mounted combat, and either weapon focus longsword or exotic weapon proficiency (elven thinblade or elven courtblade).

Gets lay on hands-like ability (Corellon's blessing), dex bonus to damage with "elven swords" (this is like sneak attack - no crit hits, no extra damage), more agility in medium and heavy armor (higher max dex, no movement penalty), bonus feats (fighter feats of the feat chains of the 3 entry feats) and 3+cha/day "Corellon's wrath" (which is +2/+2d6 melee damage for 1 round, weapon is good-aligned and magic).

Interestingly: you can continue in this class even if you turn evil, you just lose the supernatural abilities (Corellon's blessing and Corellon's wrath


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## Cold0 (Feb 7, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Nonevil elf with BAB +7, ranks in diplomacy and Know(reli), worshipper of Corellon (of course)
> Must be profiecient with all martial weapons and heavy armor, and have combat expertise, dodge, mounted combat, and either weapon focus longsword or exotic weapon proficiency (elven thinblade or elven courtblade).
> 
> Gets lay on hands-like ability (Corellon's blessing), dex bonus to damage with "elven swords" (this is like sneak attack - no crit hits, no extra damage), more agility in medium and heavy armor (higher max dex, no movement penalty), bonus feats (fighter feats of the feat chains of the 3 entry feats) and 3+cha/day "Corellon's wrath" (which is +2/+2d6 melee damage for 1 round, weapon is good-aligned and magic).
> ...




Cool!! Thanx you!


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Druid support...that's enough for me to buy it right there.




Yes, there's a bit of that: The arcane hierophant, halfling druid substitution levels, those flying feats (when you're wild shaped), the coordinated strike feat to fight in concert with your animal companion, magic of the land (which will lace magic with healing in natural areas), shared fury (for druid/barbarians), and the winged warrior and wolfpack tactical feats can be useful, too.


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## icedrake (Feb 7, 2005)

Could you please describing the halfling substuition levels and PrC?


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## Antara (Feb 7, 2005)

Any details about that sky domain? Mainly it's granted power and low-level spells.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 7, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Mystic Theurge-like class, but for arcanists and druids. Most noteworthy prerequsiste is the BAB +4, which means that they need more than 3 levels of each wizard and druid.
> 
> They get the medim BAB, strong will saves, and a couple of abilities (and +1/+1 spellcasting): They can ignore spell failure in "druid armor", retain wild shape, their animal companion becomes their familiar (the old familiar is dismissed without XP penalty) And can channel spells through animals or plants (no plant creatures, only trees and the like) they have touched, a couple of times per day.



Restricted to elves?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

icedrake said:
			
		

> Could you please describing the halfling substuition levels and PrC?




Halflings Druid - they get another set of spontaneous casting spells (not just a lot of animals), a special link to his animal companion that grants him bonuses to use it as a mount, and undersized wild shape (everything one size smaller, but they get to use it more often)
Halfling Monk - only d6, but more skill points; gets skirmish (as the scout ability - extra damage and AC when moving 10+ feet in the round); weapon finesse instead of normal 2nd-lv bnus feat, and size matters not (bonuses to grapple and stunning fist dc against monsters 2+ size categories bigger
Halfling Barbarian - of course not! It's rogue. They can get ranged SA twice (each time they get an additional 1d6 for ranged SA but 1d6 less for melee); thief's luck (reroll some ref saves), and sniping mastery as special ability at level 10 (use sniping with -10 and as free action)


Luckstealer: Halfling gambler and spellcaster that gets luck-related abilities including good luck for you and bad luck for enemies. can be entered at 7th, and has 7/10 spellcasting levels. The DC 20 Lore check is "A luckstealer can steal people's luck - it's a sort of curse - but the effects don't last very long. Almost all of them used to be sorcerers"

Whisperknife: Rogue-like halflings who take vengeance against those who wronged the halflings. Again, the lore check, dc 15: "These so-called assassins are known as whisper-knives. Some are actually assassins, and they kill for money, Most are secret defenders of the halfling race, stealthy and ruthless blademasters who use their martial skills to make other fok answer for injuries they do to halflings. Not every halfling caravan or settlement is watched over by a whisperknife, but you never know which ones are."



			
				Antara said:
			
		

> Any details about that sky domain? Mainly it's granted power and low-level spells.




Sky domain: Better fly/glide speed, spot as class skill.
You get Raptor's sight, summon dire hawk, enduring flight, aerial alacrity, control winds, wind walk, reverse gravity, mastery of the sky and summon devoted roc (many of these are new spells)



			
				Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Restricted to elves?




No, the arcane hierophant is only restricted in alignment (non-lawful)


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## Snapdragyn (Feb 7, 2005)

I believe the designer interview mentioned a feat called Flick of the Wrist. Is this the same as the FotW feat in CW (Quick Draw as a prereq., catch an opponent flat-footed once/combat)?


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## kenobi65 (Feb 7, 2005)

*Please* tell me there's nothing in there about elves being immortal, or heading off to some otherwise-unfindable land when they reach Venerable age.


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## Banshee16 (Feb 7, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Yes this time: Scy Domain, for raptorans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Does the druid hierophant class continue to advance in wild shape?  Sorry if the question is repetitive, I wasn't quite sure.

Banshee


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## Mercule (Feb 7, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> ...stuff about elven knights...




Anything for inspiration for those of us looking for a light-armored elven knight?  I've been looking for/working on a PrC that's something more in the Swashbuckler/Dervish/Bladesinger category.


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## ohGr (Feb 7, 2005)

Have they finally made a feat that allows non-druids/rangers to get an animal companion?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

Snapdragyn said:
			
		

> I believe the designer interview mentioned a feat called Flick of the Wrist. Is this the same as the FotW feat in CW (Quick Draw as a prereq., catch an opponent flat-footed once/combat)?




It's the very same.



			
				kenobi65 said:
			
		

> *Please* tell me there's nothing in there about elves being immortal, or heading off to some otherwise-unfindable land when they reach Venerable age.




In fact, elves have now no maximum age. They are immune to disease and poison, and get +2 to every ability score. 

Just kidding.

They say that elves do age, but it is not apparent, nor is it accompanied by the pain, difficulty, or sickness other races suffer when they age. They seem ageless to nonelves. But they're not, and they know it. Elves won't try to get a "second spring" or something, when they grow too weak to be a good warrior, they stop being a warrior, instead becoming an instructor, for example.

The mystical journey to their fabled homeland of Arvandor still exists, but it is not a mystical one but a very real one, as some elves go planewalking in search of the home plane of their gods. Most elves live out the final years of their live in the company of family and friends, though.



			
				Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Does the druid hierophant class continue to advance in wild shape?  Sorry if the question is repetitive, I wasn't quite sure.




Yes, the arcane hierophant adds his class levels to his druid levels to determine his wildshape ability (though if he didn't have it before - such as qualifying as high-level ranger instead of druid - they don't receive it)



			
				Mercule said:
			
		

> Anything for inspiration for those of us looking for a light-armored elven knight?  I've been looking for/working on a PrC that's something more in the Swashbuckler/Dervish/Bladesinger category.




Not really. We do have the bladesinger already, though. That's as much elven knight with light armor as it will get.



			
				ohGr said:
			
		

> Have they finally made a feat that allows non-druids/rangers to get an animal companion?




No. If you want an animal companion, you have to become a druid or ranger. Or you just train an animal...


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## The Shaman (Feb 7, 2005)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Have they finally made a feat that allows non-druids/rangers to get an animal companion?



 :\ 

That would kinda nerf one of the important abilities of the druid or ranger. IMHO as a general design principle it's not a good idea to make feats open to anyone out of class abilities as it reduces the significance of that ability to the class.

Besides, anyone can invest ranks in Handle Animal, so you can have a pet if you want one already.

Thanks for the description, *KaeYoss* - I didn't plan on even looking inside this book, and now I may end up buying it.


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## iwarrior-poet (Feb 7, 2005)

*Deepwood Sniper?*

Is there a prestige class that approximates the 3.0 Deepwood Sniper? Is there one that focuses on Bowmanship?


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## Banshee16 (Feb 7, 2005)

What are the catfolk like?  Are they basically like the Rakasta from Mystara?  Do they have natural attacks?

Banshee


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 7, 2005)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Is there a prestige class that approximates the 3.0 Deepwood Sniper? Is there one that focuses on Bowmanship?




The closest we have to an archer PrC here is the Whisperknive, but they are focussed on throwing daggers, who by the way can flank with thrown weapons.

There are some feats and substitution levels for archery, though. And the deepwood sniper is still good...


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 8, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> What are the catfolk like?  Are they basically like the Rakasta from Mystara?  Do they have natural attacks?




I don't know the Rakasta from Mystara, so I can't tell you that. 

They have no natural attacks, though. 

Catfolk are quick and quite agile, stealthy, have good ears, a tough hide and surprisingly, get a charisma bonus. They're said to accomplish most tasks in quick bursts of energy.


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## Stone Angel (Feb 8, 2005)

Are the elven sub-races included in detail, drow, avariel, aquatic?


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 8, 2005)

Assuming they haven't changed from the Miniatures Handbook, catfolk are much more feral than the Rakasta, who were quite civilized, depending on the local culture.


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## Remathilis (Feb 8, 2005)

Catfolk are from Mini HB, they are great thieves/rangers. 

For those who haven't figured it out, racial subs have three types

Favored Class (if applicable)
Iconic Class (A class that fits their abilities and temperment)
Poor Choice (This race is rarely this class because of ability or temperment)

Dwarf: Fighter (Fav) Cleric (Icon), Sorcerer (Poor)
Gnome: Bard (Fav), Illusionist (Icon), Ranger (poor)
Half-Elf: Bard/Ranger (Iconics, no FC), Fighter (Poor)
Half-Orc: Barbarian (Fav), Druid (Icon), Paladin (poor)
Goliath: Barbarian (Fav) Druid (Icon), Rogue (poor)
Elf: Wizard (Fav), Ranger (Icon), Paladin (poor)
Halfling: Rogue (Fav) ? ?
Raptoran: Cleric (Fav) ? ?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 8, 2005)

Gnomes make bad rangers? I always thought that was a very natural fit for them.


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## Milkman Dan (Feb 8, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Ruathar (elf-friend/star-friend: character who did the elves a great service and receives elven blessings. Only 3 levels)
> Wildrunner (elf or half-elf completely embracing nature, becomes fey in the end)



I am quite interested in the prereqs of those two, and a general overview of the abilities. Recently in our campaign, our group rendered a great service to elves... so I'm wondering if Ruathar really is suited to many different classes, as I've heard.  

Our DM is also looking into an elven-focused PrC that is nature-related, so I know he'd be interested in hearing about Wildrunner.


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## ohGr (Feb 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> That would kinda nerf one of the important abilities of the druid or ranger. IMHO as a general design principle it's not a good idea to make feats open to anyone out of class abilities as it reduces the significance of that ability to the class.



Maybe i just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if i want to play a character with a powerful, kick-ass animal buddy, i have to play a shapeshifting spellcaster.  (No, rangers, with only half their level adding to the animal companion, don't count here; it simply isn't a big enough boost to make the companion viable as anything more than a scout.)  Sure, PrCs can help a bit here, but every single one, except the Beastmaster, requires you have an animal companion beforehand.  But then again, i don't see animal companions as some important, class-defining ability for either the druid or ranger; both have such a host of abilities that animal companions are little more than an add-on.



> Besides, anyone can invest ranks in Handle Animal, so you can have a pet if you want one already.



Sure, if you don't mind watching weeks of hard work go down the drain when you're animal friend bites it in his first combat; normal animals are simply too weak to survive high level combat.  I once had a fighter focused on mounted combat who went through over a dozen warhorses by the time he hit 6th level.

This is kind of a sore point for me right now, though; i guess i'm just frustrated.  I've spent the last couple weeks trying to make a barbaric, dino-riding halfling build for an Eberron campaign, and it just isn't coming together.


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## Pevishan (Feb 8, 2005)

*Re:*

I know they had a feat on the Wizards site that gave someone an animal companion-like bond to an animal...

At least, it was better than Handle animal.


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## Steverooo (Feb 8, 2005)

Pevishan said:
			
		

> I know they had a feat on the Wizards site that gave someone an animal companion-like bond to an animal...
> 
> At least, it was better than Handle animal.




The Feat that you want, if you're sixth level or above, is Leadership.  With that, you can get any animal of levels less than your own.  Otherwise, what you want (and was referred to, here), is Wild Cohort (almost, but not quite as good as a Druid's Animal Companion):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a

(Now remember yer ol' Ranger buddies when it comes time to save someone's bacon... or divvy up treasure!  )


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## The Shaman (Feb 8, 2005)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Maybe i just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if i want to play a character with a powerful, kick-ass animal buddy, i have to play a shapeshifting spellcaster.



It seems to me that the same could be said for most any class ability - "I just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if I want to play a character who has bardic knowledge I have to play a singing rogue," or, ""I just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if I want to play a character who can rage that I have to play an illiterate barbarian."

It's just the way the class system works. A classless d20 in which character abilities are skill-and-feat based gets around this, but as long as I'm running D&D, in my games I avoid undermining the abilities of characters who've chosen to invest levels in a class by not making those same abilities into feats.


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## Steverooo (Feb 8, 2005)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Maybe i just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if i want to play a character with a powerful, kick-ass animal buddy, i have to play a shapeshifting spellcaster.  (No, rangers, with only half their level adding to the animal companion, don't count here; it simply isn't a big enough boost to make the companion viable as anything more than a scout.)  Sure, PrCs can help a bit here, but every single one, except the Beastmaster, requires you have an animal companion beforehand.  But then again, i don't see animal companions as some important, class-defining ability for either the druid or ranger; both have such a host of abilities that animal companions are little more than an add-on.
> 
> 
> Sure, if you don't mind watching weeks of hard work go down the drain when you're animal friend bites it in his first combat; normal animals are simply too weak to survive high level combat.  I once had a fighter focused on mounted combat who went through over a dozen warhorses by the time he hit 6th level.
> ...




If you're trying to make a Kicker-of-Assets dinosaur, at low levels, no; you're not going to be able to do it...  If all you want is a 1 HD War-trained mount, then talk to the GM.  I would allow one to be bought from some Halfling animal trainer (although replacing it outside the Halflings' area within the game would be tough).

In other words, it's about balance.  If you want to ride a T-Rex, you're going to have to wait many levels to get one (see the Druid's Animal Companion table... it's 16th level!)  The Deinonychus is only 6th (but by then you could take Leadership), and the Monitor Lizard is third...


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## Steverooo (Feb 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> It seems to me that the same could be said for most any class ability - "I just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if I want to play a character who has bardic knowledge I have to play a singing rogue," or, ""I just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if I want to play a character who can rage that I have to play an illiterate barbarian."
> 
> It's just the way the class system works. A classless d20 in which character abilities are skill-and-feat based gets around this, but as long as I'm running D&D, in my games I avoid undermining the abilities of characters who've chosen to invest levels in a class by not making those same abilities into feats.




Apparently, WotC disagrees that Animal Companions is enough of a Class Ability to worry about...  You can take Wild Cohort at first level!


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## The Shaman (Feb 8, 2005)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Apparently, WotC disagrees that Animal Companions is enough of a Class Ability to worry about...  You can take Wild Cohort at first level!



...provided the GM lets it in the game in the first place.

Spell it with me now: O - P - T - I - O - N - A - L.

 

Besides, since when does having "WotC" stamped on something mean it can't be bad or broken?

 :\


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## Klaus (Feb 8, 2005)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Maybe i just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if i want to play a character with a powerful, kick-ass animal buddy, i have to play a shapeshifting spellcaster.  (No, rangers, with only half their level adding to the animal companion, don't count here; it simply isn't a big enough boost to make the companion viable as anything more than a scout.)  Sure, PrCs can help a bit here, but every single one, except the Beastmaster, requires you have an animal companion beforehand.  But then again, i don't see animal companions as some important, class-defining ability for either the druid or ranger; both have such a host of abilities that animal companions are little more than an add-on.
> 
> 
> Sure, if you don't mind watching weeks of hard work go down the drain when you're animal friend bites it in his first combat; normal animals are simply too weak to survive high level combat.  I once had a fighter focused on mounted combat who went through over a dozen warhorses by the time he hit 6th level.
> ...



 For this character type, go with Ranger until 6th level, take Nature Bond feat at 6th (Complete Adventurer, adds +3 to your effective druid level for animal companion purposes) and then proceed to, say, Wild Plains Outrider (provided you want to ride your animal companion in battle). A Rgr6/WPO5 with Nature Bond has an 11th level animal companion.

Or you could be a Paladin/Ranger, take the Divine Hunter (once again, Complete Adventurer) feat and designate your animal companion as your special mount, in which case all the bonuses stack.


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## boolean (Feb 8, 2005)

Don't forget the Beastmaster prestige class, also from Complete Adventurer. This gives you the Animal companion of a Druid whose level is equal to the beastmaster's class level +3.

A Ranger 6 (Effective Druid Level 3)/Beastmaster 1 (EDL 4) gets the animal companion of a druid of the same level (EDL 7). Follow with more levels in Beastmaster , Wild Plains Outrider levels, or simply more Ranger levels (taking Natural bond to make up for 1/2 advancement.)

Sure, you can't get that T-Rex until 16th level, but you can get a Megaraptor at 10th.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 8, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> The closest we have to an archer PrC here is the Whisperknive, but they are focussed on throwing daggers, who by the way can flank with thrown weapons.
> 
> There are some feats and substitution levels for archery, though. And the deepwood sniper is still good...




This PrC is sounding better and better. I can see some combination between this and the Invisible Blade and the Master Thrower coming into focus in my brain.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Feb 8, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> The closest we have to an archer PrC here is the Whisperknive, but they are focussed on throwing daggers, who by the way can flank with thrown weapons.
> 
> There are some feats and substitution levels for archery, though. And the deepwood sniper is still good...



Sorta, but the Deepwood Sniper has some problems converting to 3.5---
1. Cover/Concealment got reworked for 3.5 and defeating Cover/Concealment was one of the DWS's class abilities--thus there's a problem using a DWS in a 3.0 setting (not a huge problem---but would have been nice to have an official rewrite)
2. The other, more considerable problem is that the DWS adds multipliers to Critical Hits and also increases Crit Range via Keen Edge. I have seen in several places that one of the underlying prinicipals in the 3.5 rewrite was to eliminate/minimize toying with Critical hits. Therefore the DWS kind of flies in the face of 3.5.
I was hoping for a good rewrite that kept the flavor of a strong Bow focused Ranger. I guess I will have to stick with Mongoose Publishing's "Bowman" from Quintessential Ranger II. I just pray that CMP adds Mongoose datasets for its new RPG Toolkit software (due out sometime between now and the end of the world----crazy monkeys!!)


----------



## qstor (Feb 8, 2005)

iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> Sorta, but the Deepwood Sniper has some problems converting to 3.5---
> 1. Cover/Concealment got reworked for 3.5 and defeating Cover/Concealment was one of the DWS's class abilities--thus there's a problem using a DWS in a 3.0 setting (not a huge problem---but would have been nice to have an official rewrite)
> 2. The other, more considerable problem is that the DWS adds multipliers to Critical Hits and also increases Crit Range via Keen Edge. I have seen in several places that one of the underlying prinicipals in the 3.5 rewrite was to eliminate/minimize toying with Critical hits. Therefore the DWS kind of flies in the face of 3.5.
> I was hoping for a good rewrite that kept the flavor of a strong Bow focused Ranger. I guess I will have to stick with Mongoose Publishing's "Bowman" from Quintessential Ranger II. I just pray that CMP adds Mongoose datasets for its new RPG Toolkit software (due out sometime between now and the end of the world----crazy monkeys!!)




I have a DWS (Ftr/Rgr levesl too) in Living Greyhawk. I took Improved Critical Bow feat at ninth and Improved Precise Shot at 12th. Kinda gives me some of the bonuses of the DWS. But I lose the x4 crit modifier and the extra range.

Mike


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 8, 2005)

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> Are the elven sub-races included in detail, drow, avariel, aquatic?




No. I think they caved in under the endless pressure of the elf bashers, because the book doesn't even present new subraces in the minor races chapter, while the other races books had those. 



			
				Remathilis said:
			
		

> Halfling: Rogue (Fav) ? ?
> Raptoran: Cleric (Fav) ? ?




Halfling: Rogue, Druid, Monk
Raptoran: Cleric, Fighter, Sorcerer.



			
				Milkman Dan said:
			
		

> I am quite interested in the prereqs of those two, and a general overview of the abilities. Recently in our campaign, our group rendered a great service to elves... so I'm wondering if Ruathar really is suited to many different classes, as I've heard.
> 
> Our DM is also looking into an elven-focused PrC that is nature-related, so I know he'd be interested in hearing about Wildrunner.




Ruathar: 
Entry Requirements: BAB +6 Or Any Skill 9 ranks OR 3rd-level spells. And you must have performed a great service to an elf community (it has guidelines)

Abilities: d6, 4+ skills, medium BAB, good ref, will. full spellcasting. Beyond that, they get a means to let other elves know what they are, and you get some of the elves' racial abilities (including increased lifespan).

Wild runner:
Elf/Half-elf, good or chaotic. ranks in hide, know nature, move sielently, survival. Endurance. This screams for ranger.

Abilities. some nature and movement-based stuff, stealth based abilities, becoming fey at 9th, and primal scream. ps is a rage-like ability that gives you bonus to str (+2) and dex (+6), a bite attack, and other abilities with levels (like frightening enemies or pounce.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 8, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> ...provided the GM lets it in the game in the first place.
> 
> Spell it with me now: O - P - T - I - O - N - A - L.
> 
> ...




You know what? This would be a great topic for a new thread. That way more people would know of it and join in, and you wouldn't derail this thread.  



			
				iwarrior-poet said:
			
		

> 2. The other, more considerable problem is that the DWS adds multipliers to Critical Hits and also increases Crit Range via Keen Edge. I have seen in several places that one of the underlying prinicipals in the 3.5 rewrite was to eliminate/minimize toying with Critical hits. Therefore the DWS kind of flies in the face of 3.5.




To answer this this one time (if we are to talk more about it, please open a new thread with it, I'll come visit): 3.5 eliminated multiple critical effects to stack so you could go to ridiculous lengths with several PrC's, feats, magical stuff, whatever. In our case, it makes sense so it should be OK even in 3.5. Just replace the keen edge with improved crit and keep the increased multi.


----------



## Klaus (Feb 8, 2005)

What are the substitution levels for halfling monks like?


----------



## JPL (Feb 8, 2005)

KaeYoss, I'm a prestige class junkie.  Do any of them jump out at you?  Anything seem especially groovy?

(And thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.)


----------



## Zad (Feb 8, 2005)

What kind of archery related feats are included?

Thanks much!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 8, 2005)

Klaus said:
			
		

> What are the substitution levels for halfling monks like?




1,2,7, you get d6, but 6+ skills.

1st: you get skirmish instead of flurry. Skirmish improves at the same levels that flurry would, it's like the scout's ability, extra damage and ac when moving
2nd: weapon finesse instead of the other bonus feats
7th: size matters not instead of wholeness of body (this improves grappling and stunning large and larger enemies)



			
				JPL said:
			
		

> KaeYoss, I'm a prestige class junkie.  Do any of them jump out at you?  Anything seem especially groovy?




The Champion of Corellon is a nice concept: your typical elf (high dex and int) in heavy armor.
Arcane Hierophant for its emphasis on druids and arcanists
The Ruathar for elf-heavy campaigns. 
And the Whisperknive for sheer style (vengeful hin assassins throwing knives - that's style. "Here comes halfling death!")



			
				Zad said:
			
		

> What kind of archery related feats are included?




Able Sniper (for shooting at thos who aren't in point blank range)
Defensive Archery (AC bonus against AoO for ranged attacks)
Plunging Shot (more damage if the enemy is far below you - mainly for flying archers, I think)

And the Tactical Feat Woodland Archer (with the maneuvers adjust for range, pierce the foliage and moving sniper)


----------



## Sun Wukong (Feb 8, 2005)

What about them deities? Names, genders, alignments, and portfolios are all I need.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 8, 2005)

Sun Wukong said:
			
		

> What about them deities? Names, genders, alignments, and portfolios are all I need.




Several known deities for halflings and elves.

Elves:
Alobal Lorfiril: Demigod of revelry, hedonism and excess of all kinds.
Corellon Larethian: You know that one
Deep Sashelas: Patron of the aquatic elves, elven god of the oceans. His consort, Trishinia, Queen of the Dolphins, is mentioned in name.
Elebrin Liothiel: God of orchards, gardens, harvest.
Hanali Celanil. The goddess of love, romance, beauty, enchantments, and so on.
Lolth: You know this one, too
Sehanine Moonbow: Goddess of mysticism, dreams, death, journeys, transcendence, moon, the stars, the heavens.
Vandria Gilmadrith: The Daughter of Corellon and Araushnee, goddess of war, guardianship, justice, grief, vigilance and decision.

All deities are CG, except lolth, who is CE, and Vandria, who is LN. She appears in the legends of Lolth's downfall, but I haven't read that yet.

Halflings: Only two deities are described in length, but there are the relevant rules for 5 other deities form the Forgotten Realms (Arvoreen, Brandobaris, Cyrollallee, Sheela Peryroyl, Urogalan)
The two deities described are Yondalla and Dallah Thaun, CN goddess of halflings, secrets, guile, thieves and rogues, acquisition of wealth, death. Dallah Thaun is the dark aspect of Yondallah, pysically split from her when she created the halflings. You cannot really worship one without worshipping the other, both hear the prayers meant for any of her. They know everything the other one knows. They have different methods, but the same goals - the benefit fo the halfling race, so they work together instead of against each other. 


Raptorans:
Tuilviel Glithien, CG goddess of raptorans, night birds, stars, moon. She's the head of the pantheon.
Duthila, N goddess of autumn, hunting and abundance
Kithin, N god of winter, the dead and the dying, barrenness, paucity.
Lliendil, CN god of weather, rain, storms, sun, wind, change, trickery
Nilthina, N god of summer, abundance, warmth, growth, lore.
Ventila, N goddess of spring, fertility, growth, love.


----------



## elforcelf (Feb 8, 2005)

Please tell about the fluffy stuff.   Cities/towns and culture;someplace said the elves belong to the classes at diffent % numbers. Size of cities/towns. Thank you very much.elforcelf.


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 8, 2005)

First off, thanks for the list! 



			
				KaeYoss said:
			
		

> The two deities described are Yondalla and Dallah Thaun, CN goddess of halflings, secrets, guile, thieves and rogues, acquisition of wealth, death. Dallah Thaun is the dark aspect of Yondallah, pysically split from her when she created the halflings. You cannot really worship one without worshipping the other, both hear the prayers meant for any of her. They know everything the other one knows. They have different methods, but the same goals - the benefit fo the halfling race, so they work together instead of against each other.




Not sure I like this at all. I've noticed a trend in the race books to provide several major races with some "dark twin" style deity. It worked well enough in _Races of Stone_ (Gelf Darkhearth being Garl's counterpart) because of the dualistic nature of Gnomes, but this Dallah Thaun seems to be taking things a little too far for my liking. It certainly seems to move halflings even farther away from their origins. Of course, like everything in the series it's optional material. I could see it working in a campaign, just not my current one.


----------



## Jakar (Feb 8, 2005)

Do the cat folk after having a burst of enegy have to lick themselves for a while and then find some sun or a nice lap to sleep for hours?


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 8, 2005)

Jakar said:
			
		

> Do the cat folk after having a burst of enegy have to lick themselves for a while and then find some sun or a nice lap to sleep for hours?



 Reminds me of the 'Flop' Feat on the WotC site a few April Fools back...


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 8, 2005)

Jakar said:
			
		

> Do the cat folk after having a burst of enegy have to lick themselves for a while and then find some sun or a nice lap to sleep for hours?




 I'm ashamed of you! One would think that being able to lick one's self would be its own reward. 

_*Have to*_ indeed!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 9, 2005)

elforcelf said:
			
		

> Please tell about the fluffy stuff.   Cities/towns and culture;someplace said the elves belong to the classes at diffent % numbers. Size of cities/towns. Thank you very much.elforcelf.




Sorry, but I haven't read much of that (the fluff of Lost Empires is first of my list)

I did read the part about elf aging and death. I liked it. It explains why they seem ageless, and how they die. They do indeed age (with age categories and the penalties) but without the pain and discomfort of many other races. They also accept that they're not the spry youngster they once were and won't try to be the person they were in their youth (if they are, for example, no longer able to be a decent fighter, they give it up, and do other things instead, like teaching others how to fight, something that benefits from their keener might). Some elves make the mystic trip near the end, but it's not the old "their souls go to a different land", but a very real interplanar travel with the usual magic in search of the homeland of the elven deities (Arvandor). Most elves prefer to die amidst their brethren, though. Dying in battle is a noble thing, but not something elves seek out (like dwarves often do). They prefer to die in the comfort of home.

Another interesting bit is elves and adulthood. Elves don't take a century to become an adult. They grow a bit slower than humans (about 25 years instead of 20 for humans to "fill out"), after that, they remain virtually timeless for decades. Even another elf can tell if an elf is 30 or 100 just by looking at him, but a short conversation will reveal the real age, as the elves gain experience, grace, patience, emotional maturity, and wisdom. 

The starting age from the PHB is simply the time at which most elves feel ready to leave home.



			
				ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Not sure I like this at all. I've noticed a trend in the race books to provide several major races with some "dark twin" style deity. It worked well enough in _Races of Stone_ (Gelf Darkhearth being Garl's counterpart) because of the dualistic nature of Gnomes, but this Dallah Thaun seems to be taking things a little too far for my liking. It certainly seems to move halflings even farther away from their origins. Of course, like everything in the series it's optional material. I could see it working in a campaign, just not my current one.




Well, I think this isn't exactly the usual dark twin situation. The deities aren't twins. They are the same being (Dallah isn't only revered as a single deity, but also as an aspect of Yondalla). They aren't ancient rivals, and indeed their churches work together. They are really two sides of a coin, not two different beings as often in this dark twin thing (like Shar and Selune)



			
				Jakar said:
			
		

> Do the cat folk after having a burst of enegy have to lick themselves for a while and then find some sun or a nice lap to sleep for hours?




Sure, why not. 
They also have big ornate cat trays in their homes, and scratch trees (which they never use btw, they're just a religious thing. They sharpen their claws on the furniture).
They also have an aversion to water (tread as shaken if they get wet), and of course the -4 penalty to all bluff checks, because they purr if something goes to their liking.

Their spell-like ability consists of them making large eyes and meowing, and onlookers must succeed at a will save or lose their action and dex to AC as they go "aawwww cute".


----------



## Swiftbrook (Feb 9, 2005)

Races of Stone had Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization feats.  Any feats like that in there for sheilds, light or medium armor?

-Swiftbrook


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 9, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Well, I think this isn't exactly the usual dark twin situation. The deities aren't twins. They are the same being (Dallah isn't only revered as a single deity, but also as an aspect of Yondalla). They aren't ancient rivals, and indeed their churches work together. They are really two sides of a coin, not two different beings as often in this dark twin thing (like Shar and Selune)




Yes, but I still think that concept seems more appropriate for a race that has such a distinct dualistic nature (Gnomes) instead of Halflings. (Then again I don't know how Halflings are presented in _Races of the Wild_ so I could be mistaken.) Despite the nature of the beast, however, there is still a tendency within the Races books for creating a troublesome deity that serves as the dark twin (even if not a separate being) or counterpart of the founding deity. It seems to push Halfling faith down a Taoistic path that doesn't really fit my concept of Halflings. Again, I can see such a deity being useful, but it goes against the Halfling community and faith as I see it.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 9, 2005)

Swiftbrook said:
			
		

> Races of Stone had Heavy Armor Optimization and Greater Heavy Armor Optimization feats.  Any feats like that in there for sheilds, light or medium armor?
> 
> -Swiftbrook




No. Shouldn't be too hard to do by yourself, though.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Feb 9, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> there is still a tendency within the Races books for creating a troublesome deity that serves as the dark twin (even if not a separate being) or counterpart of the founding deity. It seems to push Halfling faith down a Taoistic path that doesn't really fit my concept of Halflings. Again, I can see such a deity being useful, but it goes against the Halfling community and faith as I see it.



I agree, but I think the goal here is to provide a racial diety for pretty much any type of character. Elves who go over to the dark side have Lolth to worship if they want to stay within (more or less) the Seldarine, the gnomes had Urdlen long ago (and now Garl's dark twin), the dwarves have always had various grimmer figures (and a very nice evil entity now), and halflings need something comparable. I know a LOT of people who play psycopath halflings for some reason (and well before Order of the Stick came on the scene), and now they have a diety that lets them be both very halfling and not particularly cuddly.

More troubling to me is the apparent decision to only detail two halfling dieties at all, and give the others a cursory treatment.


----------



## Milkman Dan (Feb 9, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Ruathar:
> Entry Requirements: BAB +6 Or Any Skill 9 ranks OR 3rd-level spells. And you must have performed a great service to an elf community (it has guidelines)
> 
> Abilities: d6, 4+ skills, medium BAB, good ref, will. full spellcasting. Beyond that, they get a means to let other elves know what they are, and you get some of the elves' racial abilities (including increased lifespan).




Sounds nice!  My cleric PC might actually benefit from that, given the increased skill points and Reflex save.  Looking forward to reading it in more details.


----------



## Pseudonym (Feb 9, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Elves:
> Alobal Lorfiril: Demigod of revelry, hedonism and excess of all kinds.
> Corellon Larethian: You know that one
> Deep Sashelas: Patron of the aquatic elves, elven god of the oceans. His consort, Trishinia, Queen of the Dolphins, is mentioned in name.
> ...






			
				KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Halflings: Only two deities are described in length, but there are the relevant rules for 5 other deities form the Forgotten Realms (Arvoreen, Brandobaris, Cyrollallee, Sheela Peryroyl, Urogalan)
> The two deities described are Yondalla and Dallah Thaun, CN goddess of halflings, secrets, guile, thieves and rogues, acquisition of wealth, death. Dallah Thaun is the dark aspect of Yondallah, pysically split from her when she created the halflings. You cannot really worship one without worshipping the other, both hear the prayers meant for any of her. They know everything the other one knows. They have different methods, but the same goals - the benefit fo the halfling race, so they work together instead of against each other.




Any idea why the designers have decided to drop pre-existing minor deities for the non-human races in favor of the new ones we're seeing?  Not sure I like it.


----------



## kilamanjaro (Feb 9, 2005)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Any idea why the designers have decided to drop pre-existing minor deities for the non-human races in favor of the new ones we're seeing?  Not sure I like it.



The only reason I can think of is that the existing racial dieties have become so ingrained into the FR that they are now considered part of the Realms brand.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Feb 9, 2005)

kilamanjaro said:
			
		

> The only reason I can think of is that the existing racial dieties have become so ingrained into the FR that they are now considered part of the Realms brand.



 That probably has a lot to do with it...but I'd bet there's a little more. At some point, you just have to stop reprinting old material and recyling things. The game will just stagnate if that's all you do with each revision instead of coming up with new stuff.


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 9, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I agree, but I think the goal here is to provide a racial diety for pretty much any type of character. Elves who go over to the dark side have Lolth to worship if they want to stay within (more or less) the Seldarine, the gnomes had Urdlen long ago (and now Garl's dark twin), the dwarves have always had various grimmer figures (and a very nice evil entity now), and halflings need something comparable. I know a LOT of people who play psycopath halflings for some reason (and well before Order of the Stick came on the scene), and now they have a diety that lets them be both very halfling and not particularly cuddly.
> 
> More troubling to me is the apparent decision to only detail two halfling dieties at all, and give the others a cursory treatment.




I understand the need to have something for everyone in the pantheon, I'm just not so certain I like the idea of Yondalla having her ld running around as conscious being. And yes, when only these two deities are presented it makes this goddess with two aspects seem even more central to the faith. It almost reminds me of The Faith of the Sun from _Deities and Demigods_ where Taiia has both Creator/Destroyer aspects. 

This shifts the entire nature of halfling faith...which doesn't seem necessary to allow characters of every ilk to have a compatable deity. Now, it just seems that those psychopathic halflings can justify their behavior by claiming to serve all of halfling-kind by following Yondalla's dark side.


----------



## Banshee16 (Feb 9, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> I don't know the Rakasta from Mystara, so I can't tell you that.
> 
> They have no natural attacks, though.
> 
> Catfolk are quick and quite agile, stealthy, have good ears, a tough hide and surprisingly, get a charisma bonus. They're said to accomplish most tasks in quick bursts of energy.




The Rakasta are basically 5'-6' tall humanoid cats.  Fairly civilized, in that they have a culture with a variant of samurai.  But they do get natural attacks....a bite and claw attacks, each of which cause 1d4 dmg.

I think in 2nd Ed. they had +2 Dex, -2 Wis or something like that.

Banshee


----------



## Sun Wukong (Feb 9, 2005)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Any idea why the designers have decided to drop pre-existing minor deities for the non-human races in favor of the new ones we're seeing?  Not sure I like it.




Same here. I was looking for some new deities.


----------



## reanjr (Feb 9, 2005)

The Shaman said:
			
		

> ...provided the GM lets it in the game in the first place.
> 
> Spell it with me now: O - P - T - I - O - N - A - L.
> 
> ...




The last time I remember that holding, I was reading Rule#0


----------



## Gez (Feb 9, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> They also have big ornate cat trays in their homes, and scratch trees (which they never use btw, they're just a religious thing. They sharpen their claws on the furniture).
> They also have an aversion to water (tread as shaken if they get wet), and of course the -4 penalty to all bluff checks, because they purr if something goes to their liking.
> 
> Their spell-like ability consists of them making large eyes and meowing, and onlookers must succeed at a will save or lose their action and dex to AC as they go "aawwww cute".




All these assets are balanced by a big drawback: they permanently suffer from a _feline distraction_ effect.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 9, 2005)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> More troubling to me is the apparent decision to only detail two halfling dieties at all, and give the others a cursory treatment.




I also noted that this book lacks some of the things the others had: New subraces for the two existing main races and a whole new pantheon for the same.

Though, to be hones, I don't miss either too much, I'm usually playing in the FR anyway, have the FR books, and even if not, I can "steal" those deities (in past editions, they were the universal demihuman deities, anyway).



			
				Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> That probably has a lot to do with it...but I'd bet there's a little more. At some point, you just have to stop reprinting old material and recyling things. The game will just stagnate if that's all you do with each revision instead of coming up with new stuff.




On the other hand, there has to be continuity with a campaign setting. In 4e, they couldn't just say "we had this Chauntea wench and this Talos guy long enough, they're gone from the setting and now we have these" Those things are reprinted because they are the powers that be in that world.


----------



## Voadam (Feb 9, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Able Sniper (for shooting at thos who aren't in point blank range)




What does this specifically do, just extend PBS?


----------



## Truth Seeker (Feb 9, 2005)

*This question was meant for this thread, but your review on the rating will stand for both books*

Kae Yoss, I am grateful for your review of the book, and I will be buying it, based on what has been said here. But finally, out of a rating from 1 to 5, what do you give it?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 9, 2005)

Voadam said:
			
		

> What does this specifically do, just extend PBS?




No. If anything, it picks up where PBS left off. You get a bonus to attack rolls against flat-footed targets at least 30 ft away, and a bonus to hide again (with the sniping action)



			
				Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> *This question was meant for this thread, but your review on the rating will stand for both books*
> 
> Kae Yoss, I am grateful for your review of the book, and I will be buying it, based on what has been said here. But finally, out of a rating from 1 to 5, what do you give it?




Sorry, I hate to be repetitive, but I haven't been able to read the whole book, especially not the fluff part, as I'm reading Lost empires first. I really liked the fluff I've seen so far, and the crunch ranges from OK to really cool.


----------



## Truth Seeker (Feb 9, 2005)

Okay, I will take that as a good endorsement.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2005)

What do the maneuvers for the Woodland Archery feat allow?


----------



## MerricB (Feb 9, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> I understand the need to have something for everyone in the pantheon, I'm just not so certain I like the idea of Yondalla having her ld running around as conscious being. And yes, when only these two deities are presented it makes this goddess with two aspects seem even more central to the faith. It almost reminds me of The Faith of the Sun from _Deities and Demigods_ where Taiia has both Creator/Destroyer aspects.
> 
> This shifts the entire nature of halfling faith...which doesn't seem necessary to allow characters of every ilk to have a compatable deity. Now, it just seems that those psychopathic halflings can justify their behavior by claiming to serve all of halfling-kind by following Yondalla's dark side.




Ah, but you're missing the fact that halfling society changed with 3e.

In 1e and 2e they were hobbits. Stay-at-homes who never wanted a day's adventure in their life. As such, Yondalla was the perfect fit for them.

In 3e, halflings are more nomadic, far more willing to take risks. Suddenly, Yondalla doesn't quite fit the halfling race any more.

To take the 3e change in the halfling personalities, and extrapolate that to the split personality of Yondalla is actually quite a good idea - it explains a lot about the halflings.

Although it might seem a bit similar to the gnomish deities, there are a couple of other factors involved. First of all, they're not maliciously competing, which is the case with the gnomes. Superficially it may seem similar, but it's actually a fundamental change.

Second, if you didn't have this dark/light duality, you'd just have _another_ normal pantheon. Would you complain about that?

Cheers!


----------



## Jakar (Feb 10, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> I'm ashamed of you! One would think that being able to lick one's self would be its own reward.
> 
> _*Have to*_ indeed!




I should of known sorry.  I will go stand in the corner for a while.


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 10, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Ah, but you're missing the fact that halfling society changed with 3e.
> 
> In 1e and 2e they were hobbits. Stay-at-homes who never wanted a day's adventure in their life. As such, Yondalla was the perfect fit for them.
> 
> ...




Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying "this is a stupid idea," because that's not what I think at all. I'm just saying that my concept of Halflings doesn't include Yondalla with a split personality. It's still a fundamental change in Halfling religion. I'm just not sure I subscribe to the idea that simply because a people change that means their deities have to change, too. One might have argued that the so-called psychopathic halflings have turned their back on faith altogether (as few of them that I've encountered seemed concerned with the betterment of halfling-kind).

Again, the _Race_ books, just like the _Complete_ books are about options. I don't feel I need to accept everything from either series in order to enjoy them. I'm also not sure what constitutes a _normal_ pantheon as I think there are aspects to each that make them unique. I pick and choose from the new deities, but for the Halflings I still prefer the _Forgotten Realms_ pantheon.


----------



## Felon (Feb 10, 2005)

ohGr said:
			
		

> Maybe i just find it annoying and a tad ridiculous that if i want to play a character with a powerful, kick-ass animal buddy, i have to play a shapeshifting spellcaster.  (No, rangers, with only half their level adding to the animal companion, don't count here; it simply isn't a big enough boost to make the companion viable as anything more than a scout.)  Sure, PrCs can help a bit here, but every single one, except the Beastmaster, requires you have an animal companion beforehand.  But then again, i don't see animal companions as some important, class-defining ability for either the druid or ranger; both have such a host of abilities that animal companions are little more than an add-on..




Well, can't dispute any of your complaints--indeed, I share a lot of the sentiment. But if you're playing a core PHB class, your non-spellcasting choices are limited. 

Personally, I don't think granting an animal companion is any more powerful than the cohort gained from Leadership. And there certainly is precedent for converting class-defining features into general feats (q.v. The Complete Divine).


----------



## qstor (Feb 10, 2005)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Any idea why the designers have decided to drop pre-existing minor deities for the non-human races in favor of the new ones we're seeing?  Not sure I like it.




IMHO WOTC is trying to *divorce* themselves from 1e/2e stuff into new 3x stuff. A lot of the minor demi-human dieties were first in Dragon Magazine or Realms stuff. I think there's a trend towards Eberron and non Greyhawk or Realms stuff into generic stuff.

Mike


----------



## qstor (Feb 10, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Able Sniper (for shooting at thos who aren't in point blank range)
> Defensive Archery (AC bonus against AoO for ranged attacks)
> Plunging Shot (more damage if the enemy is far below you - mainly for flying archers, I think)
> 
> And the Tactical Feat Woodland Archer (with the maneuvers adjust for range, pierce the foliage and moving sniper)




Thanks for posting this stuff. My copy hasn't come from Amazon.com yet...*grumble* *grumble*

Does Able Sniper work beyond 30ft? are these elf only feats? What are some of the elven feats? 

Thanks

Mike


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 10, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> What do the maneuvers for the Woodland Archery feat allow?




Ajust for Range (a bonus on subsequent shots in a round if you miss that target), Pierce the Foliage (no more miss chance for conceilment in the next round when you hit with one shot) and Moving Sniper (you can shoot, move, and hide with the sniping action)



			
				ivocaliban said:
			
		

> One might have argued that the so-called psychopathic halflings have turned their back on faith altogether (as few of them that I've encountered seemed concerned with the betterment of halfling-kind).




Note that Dallah Thaun is not for "psychopatic" halflings, anyway. She's not the evil half of yondalla. Those halflings who turn their back on the halfling race turn their back on both Yondala and Dallah Thaun. And though Dallah Thaun encourages halflings to amass wealth, even by stealing, she is against harming anyone in the process. Her two creeds are "don't get caught" and "don't harm others for your gain". 
And, again, she doesn't work against Yondalla, but with her. For example, when evil harms halflings, Yondalla nurtures the survivor and Dalla Thaum seeks vengeance (or rahter, their respective followers do that, but in their goddesses name).



			
				qstor said:
			
		

> I think there's a trend towards Eberron and non Greyhawk or Realms stuff into generic stuff.




I've noticed that, too. They're pushing Eberron, and pushing hard. There already rumors that it will take the place of Greyhawk as standard setting in D&D (which IMO would be among the worst things that could happen to D&D, since Eberron isn't generic enough. Forcing things like Living Constructs and Shapechangers on standard D&D isn't right. But I think this are but rumors.)


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 10, 2005)

qstor said:
			
		

> Does Able Sniper work beyond 30ft? are these elf only feats? What are some of the elven feats?




Able Sniper *only* works at 30+ feet.

Elf only feats are: 
Elf Dilettante (you get a bonus on untrained skill checks and can try anything untrained)
Focused Mind (a bonus in int or int-based skill checks when taking 10 or 20)
Lightfeet (you leave almost no trail, tracking you is harder)


----------



## Ty (Feb 10, 2005)

*Arcane Hierophant*

Questions on this PrC so I can anticipate what my PC's are going to be gunning for.    

So let me get this straight.  Does the arcane hierophant increase the wildshape druidic ability and the animal companion strength?  What about the wizards familiar?    

As a side note, I've heard the prerequisites are easy for druids but possible for rangers.  What are the prereqs perchance?  Thanks in advance for any help guys.


----------



## Ranger REG (Feb 10, 2005)

Can you post _Races of the Wild_ TOC?


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## ivocaliban (Feb 10, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Note that Dallah Thaun is not for "psychopatic" halflings, anyway.




This is not to say that many a "psychopathic" Halfling player won't chose to follow Dallah Thaun as a way to validate the behavior of their characters.  



			
				KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Those halflings who turn their back on the halfling race turn their back on both Yondala and Dallah Thaun.




This continues the dual-goddess theme that I dislike for Halflings. You either serve Yondalla/Dallah Thaun or you serve nothing in this new interpretation of the pantheon? I prefer having a pantheon that extends beyond one goddess with two aspects. It seems to me like a way to save space in this book by shortchanging the Halflings. 

Furthermore, I just don't like the idea of messing with the central deity of a pantheon. It's a major change that rocks the underpinning of Halfling faith. It might be wonderful for a new campaign, but it's not something you can suddenly introduce to an already established Halfling community. How do you explain what happened to Urogalan, Brandobaris, Cyrollalee and so on?

What I liked about the deities from _Races of Stone_ is that many of them can be used in addition to the widely accepted _Forgotten Realms_ pantheons*. They can add depth to a pre-existing pantheon. In short, they provide additional options. The Yondalla/Dallah Thaun option presents more of an either/or decision. 

In the long run, however, it makes the Halfling pantheon far more limited, unless you happen to be one of those DMs/Players who only have the core books. It ends up benefiting those who have less material and less information at their disposal. Again, that's perfectly alright, it's just not of any use to me and my current campaign.

*Many of these deities are also included in several lists of _Greyhawk_ gods.


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 10, 2005)

Ty said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight.  Does the arcane hierophant increase the wildshape druidic ability and the animal companion strength?  What about the wizards familiar?




Yes, yes, and yes. Note however, that you don't have an animal companion or a familiar any more. You have a companion familiar, as your old animal companion becomes your familiar, too, and gets both sets of benefits



> As a side note, I've heard the prerequisites are easy for druids but possible for rangers.  What are the prereqs perchance?  Thanks in advance for any help guys.




Nonlawful, BAB +4, Know arc 8, Know nat 8, 2nd-level arcane, 2nd-level divine, trackless step class feature.

So unless they made an error with the trackless step (could have meant woodland stride), rangers still need 3 levels of druid.



			
				Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Can you post _Races of the Wild_ TOC?



I'll try (without pages, thoug)

*Introduction*
What is a Race of the Wild?
Inside this book
- What you need to play


*Chapter 1: Elves* 
A day in the life
description
psychology
elven life
elf society and culture
elves and other races
religion
- Alobal Lorfiril
- Corellon Larethian
- Deep Sashelas
- Elebrin Liothiel
- Hanali Celanil
- Lolth
- Sehanine Moonbow
- Vandria Gilmadrith
Elf History and Folklore 
Language
Elf Cities and Settlements
- The Elven Economy
- Example Settlement: Windingwater
Creating Elf Characters
- Elves as Characters

*Chapter 2: Halflings* 
A day in the life
description
psychology
halfling life
halfling society and culture
religion
- Yondalla
- Dalla Thaun
- Arvoreen
- Brandobaris
- Cyrollalee
- Sheela Peryroyl
- Urogalan
Halfling history and folklore
language
halfling caravans and towns
- halfling economy
- example settlement: Fanta's Meadow
Creating Halling Characters
- Halflings as characters.

*Chapter 3: Raptorans* 
A day in the life
description
- Overview
- Raptoran racial traits
psychology
raptoran life
raptoran society and culture
religion
- Nature Worship
- The Raptoran Pantheon
raptoran history and folklore
language
Example FLock: The Rifinti
- Important Rifinti Members
- Rifinti Cliff Dwelling
Creating raptoran Characters
- raptoran as characters.

*Chapter 4: Other races* 
Using this chapter
- Monster classes
Catfolk
Centaur
Gnoll
Killoren
Vital Statistics

*Chapter 5: Prestige Classes* 
Arcane Hierophant
Champion of Corellon Larethian
Luckstealer
Ruathar
Skypledged
Stormtalon
Whisperknife
Wildrunner

*Chapter 6: Character Options*
Skills
- (List)
Feats
- (List)
Tactical Feats
- (List)
Racial Substitution Levels
- (List)

*Chapter 7: Equipment and Magic* 
Weapons
- Weapon Modifications
Armor
- Armor Modifications
- Special Armor Materials
Gear
Magic Items
- (List)
New Spells
- (List)
New Psionic Powers 
- (List)

*Chapter 8: Campaigns in the Wild* 
Assembling the Group
the setting
demographics
- elf communities
- halfling communities
- raptoran communities
Adventuring in Elf Communities
Adventuring in halfling communities
Sample NPC's
- (list divided by race and "npc's"/"groups")
Holidays
- (by race)
Friends of the Wild
- Brixashulty
- Chordevoc
- Dire Hawk
- Elven Hound

*Appendix 1: One Hundred Adventure Ideas* 
*Appendix 2: NPC's by CR* 



			
				ivocaliban said:
			
		

> This is not to say that many a "psychopathic" Halfling player won't chose to follow Dallah Thaun as a way to validate the behavior of their characters.



That's always the case with dark deities. But this time, if they are violently psychopathic, the excuse doesn't work, for Dallah Thaun is agianst violence without reason.

You can play a halfling thief with her as patron (hell, you can play a halfling thief regardless of patron), but if you go assassin or thug, you have to seek another excuse deity.



> This continues the dual-goddess theme that I dislike for Halflings. You either serve Yondalla/Dallah Thaun or you serve nothing in this new interpretation of the pantheon? I prefer having a pantheon that extends beyond one goddess with two aspects. It seems to me like a way to save space in this book by shortchanging the Halflings.




No. There is a pantheon for them. They just didn't provide the background stuff, only the game statistics, and referred to the FR books. It's something I don't like too much.
On the other hand, elves didn't fare much better. They did get new gods, and they did get a write-up of them all, but the real new gods were only a couple, the rest were taken from FR, too.

I do think that they did this because of space. The book is as large as the others, so they found use for that space after all. They did present a larger format for PrC's, and one I really like. So I don't really mind that they didn't present new gods (I use the setting-specific stuff, anyway, so this doesn't really concern me. I might be tempted to use Dallah Thaun for the FR, though)



> Furthermore, I just don't like the idea of messing with the central deity of a pantheon. It's a major change that rocks the underpinning of Halfling faith. It might be wonderful for a new campaign, but it's not something you can suddenly introduce to an already established Halfling community. How do you explain what happened to Urogalan, Brandobaris, Cyrollalee and so on?




Well, what happened to them? They're still there. And introducing Dannah isn't more or less difficult than introducing any other new deity. It might even be less difficult: You just say that she did have that dark aspect of herself, but it just didn't take any active role until now, and didn't show up in the legends. 

And if you decide not to use her, then everything's alright, because Yondalla is still the same.



> What I liked about the deities from _Races of Stone_ is that many of them can be used in addition to the widely accepted _Forgotten Realms_ pantheons*




And so can Dallah Thaun



> . They can add depth to a pre-existing pantheon. In short, they provide additional options. The Yondalla/Dallah Thaun option presents more of an either/or decision.




It is another option. The option to use the aspect. Beside the fact that she's an aspect of Yondallah, she's just another halfling deitiy. 



> In the long run, however, it makes the Halfling pantheon far more limited, unless you happen to be one of those DMs/Players who only have the core books. It ends up benefiting those who have less material and less information at their disposal. Again, that's perfectly alright, it's just not of any use to me and my current campaign.




??? No it doesn't. This doesn't mean you cannot use any of the other deities. There is no line that says "if you use the Yondalla/Dallah Thaun couple and other halfling gods, a fiendish dire lawyer of Wizards of the Coast jumps out of the book and sues you". In fact, the book gives you the relevant info about several other deities in the halfling pantheon.


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 10, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> ??? No it doesn't. This doesn't mean you cannot use any of the other deities. There is no line that says "if you use the Yondalla/Dallah Thaun couple and other halfling gods, a fiendish dire lawyer of Wizards of the Coast jumps out of the book and sues you". In fact, the book gives you the relevant info about several other deities in the halfling pantheon.




Forgive me, but the impression I got from your earliest mention of Yondalla/Dallah Thaun was that the dual-aspect goddess superceded the previous pantheon. I didn't notice the mention of the other deities. It seems like Brandobaris wouldn't have much of a place with the newcomer on the scene as they essentially fill the same niche. How, if at all, do they deal with this?

EDIT: I'd also like to add that I never said the option was a particularly bad one. It was simply one that didn't fit my current campaign.


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 11, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> It seems like Brandobaris wouldn't have much of a place with the newcomer on the scene as they essentially fill the same niche. How, if at all, do they deal with this?




They do have differing portfolios.
Brandobaris is the God of stealth, thievery, adventuring and halfling rogues.
Dallah Thaun is the goddess of halflings, secrets, guile, thieves and rogues, acquisition of wealth, death.
Domains: Luck, Travel, Trickery (Brandobaris); Chaos, Knowledge, Luck, Trickery (Dallah Thaun)

So both are halfling deities of rogues/thieves, which explains luck and trickery. But for Brandobaris, this is great fun, and adventure, while Dallah does it to accumulate wealth (and/or secrets). (Dallah Thaun also cares about the souls of dead halflings, and avenges wrongs done to her people)


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## ivocaliban (Feb 11, 2005)

Yes, under the assumption that Yondalla/Dallah Thaun became the only deity (deities?) of the Halfling pantheon, it wouldn't allow Halflings much flexibility. I admit it was a faulty assumption on my part, but that was the impression I was operating under. Now that I know more details I just have more questions, of course. Urogalan was once the Halfling god of Death. Has he lost this?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 11, 2005)

No, none of the other deities lost anything to Dallah Thaun.

But there were overlapping portfolios before. Arvoreen, for example, is the Defender of the halflings. But Yondalla is the protector, too. Both have the protection domains. 

I think that pantheon chiefs/racial creators have always a broad portfolio, but their servitor deities have deeper ones, and serve their lords in a particular field, specializing in that and doing it all the time, while the main deity oversees everything. So we have Yondalla, who protects halflings, but Arvoreen is also the defender. We have Dallah Thaun, the receiver of souls, but Urogalan is the master of the realms of the dead. Brandobaris kinda serves both deities: Dalla Thaun because of his rogue/thief part of the portfolio, and Yondalla because of the part about adventuring. Come to think o fo it, arvoreen can also serve both, as he leads the defense and then the counteroffense.


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## ivocaliban (Feb 11, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> No, none of the other deities lost anything to Dallah Thaun.
> 
> But there were overlapping portfolios before. Arvoreen, for example, is the Defender of the halflings. But Yondalla is the protector, too. Both have the protection domains.
> 
> I think that pantheon chiefs/racial creators have always a broad portfolio, but their servitor deities have deeper ones, and serve their lords in a particular field, specializing in that and doing it all the time, while the main deity oversees everything. So we have Yondalla, who protects halflings, but Arvoreen is also the defender. We have Dallah Thaun, the receiver of souls, but Urogalan is the master of the realms of the dead. Brandobaris kinda serves both deities: Dalla Thaun because of his rogue/thief part of the portfolio, and Yondalla because of the part about adventuring. Come to think o fo it, arvoreen can also serve both, as he leads the defense and then the counteroffense.




Well, that clears up quite a bit. I've got different view of the new addition now. I'm still not sure she'll make it into my campaign, but I'll wait until I have the book and can soak up the details before I rule her out completely. Thanks for your patience and swift response.


----------



## Klaus (Feb 11, 2005)

Ty said:
			
		

> Questions on this PrC so I can anticipate what my PC's are going to be gunning for.
> 
> So let me get this straight.  Does the arcane hierophant increase the wildshape druidic ability and the animal companion strength?  What about the wizards familiar?
> 
> As a side note, I've heard the prerequisites are easy for druids but possible for rangers.  What are the prereqs perchance?  Thanks in advance for any help guys.



 For your familiar, all you need is the Obtain Familiar feat (Complete Arcane). With it, all of your arcane spellcasting classes (including the Arcane Hierophant) stack when determining familiar abilities.

For your animal companion, you need Nature Bond (Complete Adventurer), which adds +3 to your effective druid level for animal companion purposes (up to your character level).


----------



## Perun (Feb 11, 2005)

I just thought of another question, if you don't mind. You said that the book describes how elves mature phisically at a much earlier age than the starting age given in the PH (around 30, IIRC). Does the book go on about how to play those young elves, or why they shouldn't be used as PCs?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 11, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Well, that clears up quite a bit. I've got different view of the new addition now. I'm still not sure she'll make it into my campaign, but I'll wait until I have the book and can soak up the details before I rule her out completely. Thanks for your patience and swift response.




No problem. I think I'll actually use her next time I make a campaign (whenever that is). Two mistresses for the other deities will make quite an interesting, tangled web.



			
				Perun said:
			
		

> I just thought of another question, if you don't mind. You said that the book describes how elves mature phisically at a much earlier age than the starting age given in the PH (around 30, IIRC). Does the book go on about how to play those young elves, or why they shouldn't be used as PCs?




That info is in a sidebar (and it's 25 as opposed to the humans' 20). Not much about playing or not playing such an elf. They do say that the starting age from the PHB is not the age at which they're "grown up", but the time most elves think they're ready to leave their home. They're also discouraged from marrying before that age (though there's no law against it) as they're not considered mature enough for that yet. But there have been stories of elves of 150 in love with 30-year-olds who had the poise of a 100-year old.

So if you want, you could play an elf of 40 or so, and just say that he felt ready to go on adventure earlier than normal (or he just had no choice). I seem to remember a certain dark elf who went away from home at about that age (something about his family and them wanting to sacrifice him) so you wouldn't be the first


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 12, 2005)

Not sure if this is the place for it, but for those that are interested the _Races of the Wild_ Art Gallery is up at WotC.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 12, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Not sure if this is the place for it, but for those that are interested the _Races of the Wild_ Art Gallery is up at WotC.




Nah, it's OK. This way, I don't have to describe all those pictures 

Look here 





Lidda's getting divine competition


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## D.Shaffer (Feb 13, 2005)

Is it me, or does this elf look really familiar to anyone else?


----------



## TheBadElf (Feb 13, 2005)

To tide me over until I can get my copy, can someone post some info on the Whisperknife??


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## MerricB (Feb 13, 2005)

TheBadElf said:
			
		

> To tide me over until I can get my copy, can someone post some info on the Whisperknife??




It's very nice.

Prereqs: BAB+4, Halfling, a bunch of skills at low ranks, Point Blank Shot, Quick Draw, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Sneak Attack +1d6

Good Base Attack progression; good Reflex saves; d8 hp; 6 skill pts/level
1st) Rapid Shot, uncanny dodge
2nd) Sneak Attack +1d6
3rd) Defensive Throw, Improved Catch
4th) Close Defense
5th) Sneak Attack +2d6
6th) Fast movement; poison use
7th) Vengeful Strike 1/day
8th) Superior catch; Sneak attack +3d6
9th) Improved Uncanny dodge; Ranged Flank
10th) Vengeful strike 3/day

Cheers!


----------



## shady (Feb 13, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> I pick and choose from the new deities, but for the Halflings I still prefer the _Forgotten Realms_ pantheon.




It keeps being referred to as the Forgotten Realms pantheon, but as I remember it it predates FR, from articles in Dragon by Roger E Moore ...? Therefore I'd assume these are the default GH pantheons also. I'm aware the pantheons were not detailed in Deities and Demigods, and are in Faiths and Pantheons ... is that the only reason everyone refers to them as FR, or am I missing something?


----------



## Gez (Feb 13, 2005)

Yes. The "FR" demihuman pantheon, outside of a few FR-specific exceptions (like that Jungle Dwarf deity), were in fact the shared demihuman pantheon. They exist in FR and GH and PS and SJ.

The thing is, since they've been developped in 3e only in the FRCS, it looks like it has been completely phagocyted by the Realms.

Though the Manual of the Planes does mention the whole Gnome pantheon. The one without that Gelf Darkheart nonsense.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 13, 2005)

shady said:
			
		

> It keeps being referred to as the Forgotten Realms pantheon, but as I remember it it predates FR, from articles in Dragon by Roger E Moore ...? Therefore I'd assume these are the default GH pantheons also. I'm aware the pantheons were not detailed in Deities and Demigods, and are in Faiths and Pantheons ... is that the only reason everyone refers to them as FR, or am I missing something?




In 3e, they were only detailed in the FRCS, so many of the newer players assume that they are FR deities. In previous editions, they were the general pantheons of those races, the demihuman deities of the whole multiverse (while the "human" deities were specific to one world).

In 3e, even those that are mentioned in more than one world (like Lolth) are considered different deities with the same name (they are very similar to one another, of course, but there are details in their powers and such that are different, as are their past exploits and history)


----------



## Psion (Feb 13, 2005)

Pseudonym said:
			
		

> Any idea why the designers have decided to drop pre-existing minor deities for the non-human races in favor of the new ones we're seeing?  Not sure I like it.




I know I don't. Perhaps they feel a need to be creative instead of recycling old material. But this happens to be old material I _like_ and _used_.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Feb 13, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> I know I don't. Perhaps they feel a need to be creative instead of recycling old material. But this happens to be old material I _like_ and _used_.




The thing here, as I said, is that they're not really "recycling". They don't use *again*, they use *still*. It's continuity. If they now went and edited Torm out of the FR and instead put another god in, they wouldn't be creative, they'd have messed up the setting.

There's a problem here, though. The races books aren't setting specific. D&D 3 doesn't really use Greyhawk, it merely implies it. It uses GH as inspiration. And since 3e has introduced different cosmologies for different worlds (FR's own cosmology instead of the great wheel), even racial pantheons become setting-specific, not general. Brandobaris isn't the halfling god of pranksters any more, he's the FR halfling god of pranksters (though they still use a lot of the racial deities). So if they don't use minor god X any more, it isn't editing someone out of the universal pantheon, but just not using him in the general stuff. If they did a Greyhawk book, those minor deities should be in, or it would not be consistant with the older versions (just as if they had put that new elven war deity - the daughter of Corellon - into the FR and left Eilistraee and Vhaeraun out).


The best solution, of course, is to keep the old deities (nothing wrong about them) and then add some new stuff. That should satisfy most fans.


----------



## shady (Feb 13, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> In 3e, even those that are mentioned in more than one world (like Lolth) are considered different deities with the same name (they are very similar to one another, of course, but there are details in their powers and such that are different, as are their past exploits and history)




Thanks. Actually I did know this, was wondering if I had missed anything though.


----------



## DevoutlyApathetic (Feb 13, 2005)

So anybody know what this "Magic of the Land" does?


----------



## Remathilis (Feb 13, 2005)

Well...

1.) The D&D Gazetteer discusses one elven deity (who also appears in RoW) Sehanie Moonbow because of her connection to the Lendinor Isles.

2.) The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has all the typical racial deities (excluding some FR only ones). 

3.) Manual of the Planes discussses some of these as servants of the chief gods (specifically, check out Bytopia and Arborea for gnomes/elves). It also discusses Mt. Clandeggin. (sp?)

4.) I can only assume the change was made to "represent" the new racial outlooks these races aquired in 3.X. Who knows....

5.) I don't concern myself too much though... I don't usually have PCs choose racial pantheons beyond the head deity anyway.


----------



## Cyberhawk (Feb 13, 2005)

*Tabaxi!*

The book discusses Cat People as a race?  Wooohooo..the return of Tabaxi    (aside from the Fiend Folio/Tome of Horrors of course...)


----------



## ivocaliban (Feb 13, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> The best solution, of course, is to keep the old deities (nothing wrong about them) and then add some new stuff. That should satisfy most fans.




For the most part this is what I've been doing with my campaigns. Some of these new deities are really inspiring. _Zarus_ (from Races of Destiny) is one of my favourites. Although to be fair, I would probably only use him as a guise for some other deity (Iuz perhaps) in order to manipulate the human race, but I still like the concept. 

I suppose another solution is to have a "Time of Troubles" style campaign where certain deities are destroyed and others take their place and assume their portfolios, but it's not something I'd personally be willing to undertake.


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## snb1131 (Feb 13, 2005)

Could you please post some info on the archery substitution levels?  Are they only for elves?  Also, what are the pre-reqs for the archery tactical feat?

Thanks!


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## qstor (Feb 13, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> 2.) The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer has all the typical racial deities (excluding some FR only ones).




This is a bit off topic for this thread. But actually apart from Sehiene Moonbow the other gods are human sub racial and generic Greyhawk gods, like Pholtus and Mayaheine. As other posters mentioned the demi-human gods are included in the FRCS. The LG approved demi-human gods are listed in the LG Deities .pdf download avaiable on the WOTC LG site.

I can start another thread on this topic if someone wants to continue talking about the demi-human gods.

Mike


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## MerricB (Feb 13, 2005)

snb1131 said:
			
		

> Could you please post some info on the archery substitution levels?  Are they only for elves?  Also, what are the pre-reqs for the archery tactical feat?
> 
> Thanks!




No such thing.

There are Racial substitution levels for the elf Wizard, Ranger and Paladin. Some of them (slightly) improve their ranged combat abilities. (e.g. the Paladin gains ranged smite at the expense of a melee smite ability)

Cheers!


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## Snapdragyn (Feb 13, 2005)

A bit off-topic, but does anyone know an OFFICIAL publication date for the U.S.? I was under the impression that releases were the 2nd Friday of the month, but apparently not so this month, as I can't find anyone who has it including FLGS (who are normally very good at getting things on the day of release). Since I wasted a trip over there this Friday expecting to find it, I'm not too happy at the laclk of information from WotC.

Is it really so incredibly difficult for WotC to post publication dates? Grrrr!

/rant off


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## coyote6 (Feb 13, 2005)

When I asked about the release date at the FLGS, they said Feb. 18th.


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 13, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> I suppose another solution is to have a "Time of Troubles" style campaign where certain deities are destroyed and others take their place and assume their portfolios, but it's not something I'd personally be willing to undertake.




Would be a bit much just for changing a couple of deities. So this shouldn't be the focus of the campaign. Of course, it can be an excuse to run a ToT-like campaign.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 13, 2005)

What new elf weapons are in there, if any?
Thanks,


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 13, 2005)

Elven shortblade and elven thinblade, which we already know from CW. Then there's the elven courtblade, a two-handed, finessable sword. And there's a bow modification so you can use the bow as a club or quarterstaff.


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## Vocenoctum (Feb 14, 2005)

Any more info on the Courtblade? Sounds odd.


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## MerricB (Feb 14, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Any more info on the Courtblade? Sounds odd.




The Elven Courtblade is a elvish greatsword. A two-handed, exotic weapon, dealing 1d10 damage with a 18-20/x2 crit range, it also allows the use of the Weapon Finesse feat. It counts as a Greatsword for the weapon focus & specialisation feats. All this for 150 gp.

Cheers!


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## dagger (Feb 15, 2005)

KaeYoss said:
			
		

> Elven shortblade and elven thinblade, which we already know from CW. Then there's the elven courtblade, a two-handed, finessable sword. And there's a bow modification so you can use the bow as a club or quarterstaff.





I was wondering if you could expand on the modification on bows to use them as a melee weapon? Thank you!


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 15, 2005)

I said almost everything of relevance: shortbow is also a club, longbow also a quarterstaff. You pay more for it.


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## dagger (Feb 15, 2005)

I grabbed this off the Wizards site here , is it close in price?



Elven Bows: During their years of experience, elves have found that often archers are attacked without much chance to defend themselves. They have therefore created the elven shortbow and elven longbow. They are designed to fire with the same rate of fire and accuracy, and yet the elves can use them to fend off attacks until they can protect themselves with a better weapon or spell.

Elven bows are beautiful pieces of work, carved mostly from wood, and highly decorated and polished. All elven bows are masterwork bows. To fulfill their function the elf crafters have also given the bows metal inlays. These enable the bow to be used as a parrying weapon until the elf can draw a more suitable weapon. Meanwhile, the elf's bow has not been damaged by the attack and can be used again.

If used as an offensive weapon, an elven shortbow acts as a one-handed melee weapon that deals 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage and an elven longbow acts as two-handed melee weapon that deals 1d6 points of bludgeoning damage. The wielder does not get any masterwork or enhancement bonuses when using the bow to attack in melee. These bows weigh twice that of their standard counterparts and have a hardness of 8 and 5 hit points each. Elven shortbows cost 360 gp and elven longbows cost 450 gp.


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## dagger (Feb 15, 2005)

Also I was also wanting to know if you could enchant the bow to be a better quarterstaff or club?


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## keymasterflash (Feb 15, 2005)

*Arcane Hierophant, Need more Info...*

Could anyone who has the book give me a better idea of the requirements and abilities of the Arcane Hierophant.  I have already read the initial posting about its requirements but it did not say anything about feat requirements... are there any?  And I would really like to know, more specifically, what abilities they get.  Thanks for the help.


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## MerricB (Feb 15, 2005)

keymasterflash said:
			
		

> Could anyone who has the book give me a better idea of the requirements and abilities of the Arcane Hierophant.  I have already read the initial posting about its requirements but it did not say anything about feat requirements... are there any?  And I would really like to know, more specifically, what abilities they get.  Thanks for the help.




Pre-reqs: any non-lawful alignment, BAB +4, Know (arcana) 8, Know (nature) 8, ability to cast 2nd level divine and arcane spells, trackless step class feature.
BAB average; good Will
spellcasting +1 arcane and divine each level.
special:
1) companion familiar, ignore arcane spell failure, wild shape
4) channel animal 2/day
6) channel plant 1/day
8) channel animal 4/day
10) channel plant 2/day

The channel abilities are interesting - they allow you to use a nearby animal or plant as the source of a spell you cast.

Cheers!


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## MerricB (Feb 15, 2005)

dagger said:
			
		

> Also I was also wanting to know if you could enchant the bow to be a better quarterstaff or club?




Yes - separate cost to the bow enhancements.

Cheers!


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## BlackMoria (Feb 15, 2005)

I hear that Cat Folk get +4 Dex and +2 Cha.  Do they get any racial skill modifers or any other perks?  Also, what LA are they?


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## MerricB (Feb 15, 2005)

BlackMoria said:
			
		

> I hear that Cat Folk get +4 Dex and +2 Cha.  Do they get any racial skill modifers or any other perks?  Also, what LA are they?




Spd 40'; low-light; +2 listen & move silently; +1 natural armour; LA +1.

Cheers!


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## keymasterflash (Feb 16, 2005)

Are there any new Wild Feats or Rage Feats, again, thanks for the info...


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 16, 2005)

keymasterflash said:
			
		

> Are there any new Wild Feats or Rage Feats, again, thanks for the info...




Not as such, though some are useful to druids and/or barbarians (including a feat that allows a druid/barbarian to share his rage with his animal companion)


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## Khafre (Feb 16, 2005)

I was curious if they have anything particularly interesting for halflings.  

What comes to mind first is which classes they have racial substitution levels for (some people don't like them, but I tend to like the flavor), and if they have anything that makes the sling more useful.  Halflings are supposed to like the sling and I like the flavor of that, but when I look at a +1 to hit with a d3 weapon that takes a move action to load, vs a d6 bow that takes a free action to load, it is tough to give up the bow just for the right flavor.

(For fighters, who have feats to spare, spending two feats on exotic wp warsling and exotic wp skiprock makes things interesting enough to get over the move action to load a sling, but non-fighters are generally better off putting their feats elsewhere.)

Thanks!


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 16, 2005)

Khafre said:
			
		

> I was curious if they have anything particularly interesting for halflings.




Well, there's the usual treatment every race gets in the races books - description about halflings, their lifestile, their outlook, their relation with other races, their creation myth, and so on.



> What comes to mind first is which classes they have racial substitution levels for (some people don't like them, but I tend to like the flavor),




Rogue, Druid, Monk



> and if they have anything that makes the sling more useful.




There's the warsling and skiprocks of course (which you could get with one feat - Improved Weapon Familiarity from Complete Warrior. Or you just include weapon familiarity for all races as a house rule). 

Though there aren't no feats that are directly related to the sling, there are a couple of archery-related feats, including one tactical feat, and you can use them with every ranged weapon.



> Halflings are supposed to like the sling and I like the flavor of that, but when I look at a +1 to hit with a d3 weapon that takes a move action to load, vs a d6 bow that takes a free action to load, it is tough to give up the bow just for the right flavor.
> 
> (For fighters, who have feats to spare, spending two feats on exotic wp warsling and exotic wp skiprock makes things interesting enough to get over the move action to load a sling, but non-fighters are generally better off putting their feats elsewhere.)




I think rapid reload should apply to slings as well.

Anyway, halflings don't just like slings, but also thrown weapons. There's even a PrC (the Whisperknive) for halflings with thrown weapons (knives are implied, but not required)


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 16, 2005)

Oh, and welcome to the boards!


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## Khafre (Feb 16, 2005)

Thank you KaeYoss, for both the information and the welcome. 

I have the book on order, but something that you mentioned intrigued me.  I was hoping they might have something for a halfling monk, but the rogue bit surprised me.  If you have the time, any chance you (or anyone else) could let me know what the first level or two of that do, so I can get a feel for what they are doing there?

Thanks again! I appreciate it!


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 16, 2005)

Khafre said:
			
		

> Thank you KaeYoss, for both the information and the welcome.




You're welcome 



> I was hoping they might have something for a halfling monk, but the rogue bit surprised me.




As has been said by someone else (on this very thread), the substitution levels follow a pattern: One for the favoured class, one for an iconic class, and one for a sub-optimal class.

So rogue was certain from the beginning.



> If you have the time, any chance you (or anyone else) could let me know what the first level or two of that do, so I can get a feel for what they are doing there?




Monk: Gets only d6, but 6+ skill points. They can trade flurry of blows for skirmish (which works like the scout class feature and improves over time, to match the flurry's advance), weapon finesse instead of the standard bonus feat at 2nd, and Size Matters Not for wholeness of body. SMN grants bonus on grapple checks and stunning fist DC's if your enemy is much larger than you.

Rogue: can increase ranged sneak attack at the cost of melee sneak attack (this increases sneak attacks with slings and thrown weapons by another 1d6, but reduced melee sneak attack by 1d6), trade trap sense for thief's luck (reroll ref saves one or more times per day) and get sniping mastery instead of the normal special ability at 10th (this greatly improves the sniping option of the hide skill)


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## Furry (Feb 17, 2005)

Going back to the feats.  What are the requirements for the archery feats?  And are the flying feats limited to Raptorans?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 17, 2005)

Furry said:
			
		

> Going back to the feats.  What are the requirements for the archery feats?




Able Sniper: Dex 13, Hide 5
Defensive Archery: Point Blank Shot
Plunging Shot: Dex 13, Point Blank Shot
Woodland Archer [Tactical]: Point Blank Shot, BAB +6



> And are the flying feats limited to Raptorans?



No. Some of them don't even have any prerequisites (but are useless to characters who cannot fly). 

So they're perfectly right for avariel, wizards with spells, and so on (though one or two require a natural fly speed - though there is a feat that can emulate that - or actual wings)


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## snb1131 (Feb 17, 2005)

What's the ranger substitution level?  What does it do?


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## Furry (Feb 17, 2005)

I have to say that my Drd3/Wiz3/Mystic Theurge1 is going staight to Hierophant for 9th level.  The beautiful thing is that I won't lose out on 9th level spells, won't get them until 20th, but that's ok.

Next question is if you can provide any details on the Stormtalon?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 17, 2005)

snb1131 said:
			
		

> What's the ranger substitution level?  What does it do?




Elven ranger: more skill points, fewer hit points. Can get a higher bonus against certain kinds of favoured enemies (the usual racial foes of the elves), can get an elven hound as animal companion, and can exchange his 10th-level favoured enemy stuff for a bonus on will saves against spells/spell-like abilities of drow and driders and on saves against spider poison.



			
				Furry said:
			
		

> Next question is if you can provide any details on the Stormtalon?




They're the aerial warrior elite of the raptoran race. Fast, good with their foot talons, gets bonus aerial feats.


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## green slime (Feb 19, 2005)

Plunging Shot?!? Sounds like a dreadful name. What's it do?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 19, 2005)

Extra damage for ranged attacks against enemies that are far below you. Good for treetoppers and, obviously, flying archers. A winged humanoid who uses a bow with his foot talons comes to mind for no reason


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## snb1131 (Feb 22, 2005)

What's the deal with the elven hound?  What makes it different than a regular dog (stat-wise and flavor-wise)?


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 25, 2005)

snb1131 said:
			
		

> What's the deal with the elven hound?  What makes it different than a regular dog (stat-wise and flavor-wise)?




They're also called cooshee's and known from former editions of D&D. They're big, strong, agile fighting mashines often trained by elves.


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## JoeGKushner (Feb 25, 2005)

Just got the book yesterday.

Looks like the worst of the bunch if you liked Illumians from the Races of Destiny.

It's certainly the worst illustrated.

I just don't get the whole need for the new race when we have winged elves and other winged humanoids already out there.

Then again... same could be said of goliaths since half-giants were introduced in Psionics Handbook.

I also didn't feel any of the secondary races were winners. For example, Races of Destiny had half-ogres and others while Races of Stone had Whisper Gnomes. I didn't want to play any of the secondary races here.

I do like some of the PrCs and racial substitition levels though. Now I'm just thinking of how to combine a halfling rogue whose goal is something like knife-thrower/invisible blade type deal.


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 25, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I just don't get the whole need for the new race when we have winged elves and other winged humanoids already out there.




Beyond the "one new race per book" argument, take a look at those winged races. They all have a LA of at least +1 (avariel elves have +3). Raptorans don't have a level adjustment.


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## Antara (Feb 26, 2005)

Any new exotic ranged weapons?


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## MerricB (Feb 26, 2005)

Well...

Footbow (for raptorians)
Skiprock
War sling (throws skiprocks)

Also arrows:
blunt - nonlethal
dragonsbreath - +1 fire damage and can catch fire
serpentstongue - piercing and slashing damage, can deal full damage to some objects
swiftwing - half normal range penalties

Cheers!


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 27, 2005)

Can someone post the details on that new dodge feat? And the specific pre-reqs for Wildrunner?

-z


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## Kae'Yoss (Feb 27, 2005)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> Can someone post the details on that new dodge feat? And the specific pre-reqs for Wildrunner?




Expeditious Dodge grants you a dodge bonus (not just against one enemy) when you move 40+ feet in that round. Can be used instead of dodge to qualify for feats, PrC's and so on.

Wildrunner:
Elf/Halfelf
Good or Chaotic
Hide 5, Know (nat) 5, Move Sil 5, Surv 8
Endurance


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## Antara (Feb 27, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> dragonsbreath - +1 fire damage and can catch fire




Are those magical arrows? How muh do they cost?


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## MerricB (Feb 27, 2005)

Antara said:
			
		

> Are those magical arrows? How muh do they cost?




Non-magical, IIRC. They're fairly expensive.

Cheers!


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## qstor (Mar 16, 2005)

I FINALLY got my copy from Amazon. Took them a while...jeez...But it looks pretty good. Thanks for answering all the questions in this thread.

Mike


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