# STILL No Character Builder Update?



## AnthonyRoberson (Oct 1, 2010)

Well, the October calendar is up and there is STILL no scheduled Character Builder update dammit.  I did my part WOTC.  Even though I swore that I would never play 4E again until the Game Table was released, I still bought your Essentials books.  I re-subscribed to DDI.  I actually even got a little excited about a reinvigorated game.  And now you pull this crap.


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## GuJiaXian (Oct 1, 2010)

I canceled my DDI subscription. Vote with your wallet.


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## Fanaelialae (Oct 1, 2010)

They announced a few weeks ago that integrating Essentials was taking longer than expected and the the update would be delayed until early October.  I think I saw a thread somewhere here (on ENWorld) about them giving a one month refund if you ask...


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Oct 1, 2010)

The lack of any Dark Sun update irks me.  Unless character themes are next to impossible to implement, there is no reason not to release that content.  Aside from Themes, the rest of the Dark Sun material is based on the pre-essentials design standard.

I can forgive them for taking long to get the Essentials stuff right.  It was a radical change from the previous design standard, especially for Martial characters.


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## jbear (Oct 1, 2010)

AnthonyRoberson said:


> Well, the October calendar is up and there is STILL no scheduled Character Builder update dammit.  I did my part WOTC.  Even though I swore that I would never play 4E again until the Game Table was released, I still bought your Essentials books.  I re-subscribed to DDI.  I actually even got a little excited about a reinvigorated game.  And now you pull this crap.



I hope your feeling better now that you have that off your chest.


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## AnthonyRoberson (Oct 1, 2010)

Fanaelialae said:


> They announced a few weeks ago that integrating Essentials was taking longer than expected and the the update would be delayed until early October.  I think I saw a thread somewhere here (on ENWorld) about them giving a one month refund if you ask...




Well. If it will be 'early' October, they sure did not put that on the calendar...


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## AnthonyRoberson (Oct 1, 2010)

jbear said:


> I hope your feeling better now that you have that off your chest.




God bless the Internet and the fanboys that live there.


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## Fanaelialae (Oct 1, 2010)

Presumably, since they already had to delay it once, they're delaying putting it on the calendar until they are certain of the day it will be ready.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 1, 2010)

AnthonyRoberson said:


> Well. If it will be 'early' October, they sure did not put that on the calendar...




After having to push the date back, _twice_, it would be stupid to give us a definite date. Sure it sucks, but it will be done when it's done.


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## ExploderWizard (Oct 1, 2010)

Didn't everyone get he memo? A little while back, the artist known as Prince declared that "the internet is over." 

WOTC must be big fans of his.


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## Wednesday Boy (Oct 1, 2010)

Fanaelialae said:


> I think I saw a thread somewhere here (on ENWorld) about them giving a one month refund if you ask...




That's what I did.  All it took was a message to WotC Customer Service and answering my security questions and info.  It was simple, hasslefree, and the people who worked with me were very accomodating.

I would love it if the character builder was updated on time but they're doing a fine job compensating for their delay.


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## Zaran (Oct 1, 2010)

> After having to push the date back, _twice_, it would be stupid to give us a definite date. Sure it sucks, but it will be done when it's done.




Which is really unprofessional.  They really should have a deadline and they should live by it.  That's why people work afterhours.  I bet they are losing quite a bit of their subscribers every day because of lack of communication with their customers.  I've stopped the auto-renewal of my account as well.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 1, 2010)

Zaran said:


> Which is really unprofessional.  They really should have a deadline and they should live by it.  That's why people work afterhours.  I bet they are losing quite a bit of their subscribers every day because of lack of communication with their customers.  I've stopped the auto-renewal of my account as well.




No, it would be unprofessional to give us some arbitrary date that they can't be sure that they can uphold. You see this sort of thing happen all the time in the video game industry and I can tell you I would rather wait until they can finish the work properly than some half finished update because they want to keep to a strict release date.


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## renau1g (Oct 1, 2010)

The problem is a snowball effect, now they have even more data to input, meaning even more time to work on it, but then they're already behind...and next month the new essentials stuff comes out right? I've given them a lot of slack with missed deadlines, broken promises, etc, but if they don't release _any_ update next Tuesday I'll be pretty pissed. I don't care if essentials is in it, just give me Dark Sun and Psionic Power...


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## evilbob (Oct 1, 2010)

renau1g said:


> The problem is a snowball effect, now they have even more data to input, meaning even more time to work on it, but then they're already behind...and next month the new essentials stuff comes out right? I've given them a lot of slack with missed deadlines, broken promises, etc, but if they don't release _any_ update next Tuesday I'll be pretty pissed. I don't care if essentials is in it, just give me Dark Sun and Psionic Power...



2nded.  And it's not like they didn't know this stuff was coming.  (_We've_ known it was coming for at least 6 months and we don't even work there.)

I'm actually a big fan of "it's done when it's done" (I wouldn't even call the Character Builder "done", honestly), but I agree with r1:  throw us a bone!  I don't know if it's really worth my time to get a ~$5 rebate or whatever, but if they miss two months in a row it'll be worth the principle of the thing.


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## mudbunny (Oct 1, 2010)

From what I have know (and I am dancing across an NDA minefield, so apologies for the vagueness), the plan is still to offer an update in October. More than that I cannot share, but as soon as WotC reveals more, I will get here to share it as soon as I can.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Oct 1, 2010)

evilbob said:


> 2nded.  And it's not like they didn't know this stuff was coming.  (_We've_ known it was coming for at least 6 months and we don't even work there.)




This, I think, is what irks most people about the matter.  WotC knows what it's producing.  They've got a finished book months in advance, they know that a CB/Compendium update will be required for the new material.  It's not Rocket Surgery.

Again, I can forgive Essentials not being present.  I'm sure that it requires a lot more tweaking and updating then a normal rules update.  But not having Dark Sun in the compendium/CB is killing me.  I have the dead tree versions, but that's not the same.


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## the Jester (Oct 1, 2010)

As was pointed out in another thread, WotC is under no obligation to provide monthly updates. It's nice, but it's a bonus- we are NOT entitled to it, despite the amazing sense of entitlement that the Internet seems to bring out in a lot of people. 

Especially since they are being so nice about it with anyone who bothers to, you know, call THEM instead of bitching about it on a message board that WotC neither owns nor really frequents, I think they have been a lot cooler dealing with the complainers than the complainers have been with all the gnashing and crying.


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## Festivus (Oct 1, 2010)

I'd suggest contacting customer service and asking for a refund of last month.  If they don't put the update this month, ask for a refund of this month.  I hear they are offering refunds for last month.

I have faith that something will be announced about this shortly, and I will be patient and wait for it.  It's not like I can't figure out how to make a character without it (yes it's nice to have but it's not "essential" to have DDI updates for Dark Sun and Essentials).

There is even a buzz that something else is coming... but nobody can talk about it yet due to NDAs


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## mudbunny (Oct 1, 2010)

Festivus said:


> I'd suggest contacting customer service and asking for a refund of last month.  If they don't put the update this month, ask for a refund of this month.  I hear they are offering refunds for last month.




They are giving refunds to those that request them.

Once people submit a ticket to CS, they will be contacted asking for some personal details (don't know which ones) and it will take a couple of days after that for the refund to be processed. (Last week, it was taking about a day, it may be taking longer now.)


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## P1NBACK (Oct 1, 2010)

Coming from someone who bitched and got a refund for September: 

Calm down peeps. It's October 1st. They may not know the exact date yet that they'll get it out. The time to get irritated is not now, but around Halloween if they haven't updated by then. 

They've got Dark Sun, Essentials, both September's and October's data to include in the next update. 

So, just relax. Check back in a month (at the end of October) or when WotC announces no update for October, and then we can express our dissatisfaction. 

...

Yeah. 

Sadly, the WotC fanboys are already jumping on this thread making little and fun of our dissatisfaction. Let's not give them fuel for the fire. Let's be calm. We got our refund for September because WotC understood our dissatisfaction. Now, let's give the company a chance to make due on their promise to update in "early" October. And, if they do fail to live up to, as always, email CS and vote with your dollar. Money is what matters to these companies. 

Thanks!


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## renau1g (Oct 1, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Coming from someone who bitched and got a refund for September:
> 
> Calm down peeps. It's October 1st. They may not know the exact date yet that they'll get it out. The time to get irritated is not now, but around Halloween if they haven't updated by then.
> 
> ...




I know they've got a huge amount of data to update, hence why I expressed concern about the snowball effect. If it takes them x hours in a normal month, now they have presumably x*2 or even 2.5 if essentials is as much work to integrate as I'd expect it is. 

We all know they're under no legal obligation to provide their updates, thanks Jester. I don't believe anyone was threatening legal action though, people seem to be expressing disappointment. 

My suggestion (which I have sent over, FWIW) is for them to update the "easy" stuff, i.e. Dungeon/Dragon articles, PP, and Dark Sun (assuming themes aren't too difficult to implement) on their regular release schedule of next Tuesday.


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## Herschel (Oct 1, 2010)

AnthonyRoberson said:


> Well. If it will be 'early' October, they sure did not put that on the calendar...




I've looked at my calendar numerous times now and don't see "early" anywhere on it. In fact, all the days are numeric. Great, WotC gave us a date that doesn't exists so there will NEVER BE AN UPDATE NOW UNLESS THEY WANT TO PROVE THEY LIE TO US!!!!!!!!!

It took longer than they thought to get the update ready and they don't have an exact date. I'm not feeling the need to be upset just yet even though the lack of a Dark Sun update does "complicate" one game I run.


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## Piratecat (Oct 1, 2010)

Hey, is anyone else having trouble using WotC's "email customer service" feature? I can't get it to work.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 1, 2010)

the Jester said:


> As was pointed out in another thread, WotC is under no obligation to provide monthly updates. It's nice, but it's a bonus- we are NOT entitled to it, despite the amazing sense of entitlement that the Internet seems to bring out in a lot of people.




The problem is that we are entitled to it, because we're paying for it.  CB updates are included in the DDI cost.  It's not a matter of internet entitlement, it's a matter of customer dissatisfaction with product.

Now, do I think WotC is being unprofessional?  Hell no.  In fact, I think they're handling it relatively well with the rebates and letting us know*.  Are there things they could have done better?  Absolutely.  However, I think that they're doing a fine customer service job, and some people may be raging for the sake of raging.

* Supposedly know, if they Essentials updates are the real reason it's delayed.  Mudbunny and others seem to indicate that's not the actual case.  In which case, that's a case of the consumer being lied to, which is a big CS no-no.  Plus, on a personal level, I think that WotC could have used it to drive a spike in subscriptions by owning up to whatever business is NDA'ed.  Assuming, of course, that this NDA stuff is as big as it's being made seem.


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## renau1g (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm guessing the NDA stuff isn't nefarious, might just be an internal deadline that they're shooting towards that mudbunny et all can't mention for fear of missing it again.


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## mudbunny (Oct 1, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> Hey, is anyone else having trouble using WotC's "email customer service" feature? I can't get it to work.




Nope. At what point are you having problems?


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## Prestidigitalis (Oct 1, 2010)

The problem with many of the comments above is the failure to understand that WotC is not the name of a person, but the name of a company.  Making a product like 4e is a cooperative effort, and there are many things that can go wrong as a result.

You can plan, you can schedule, you can direct, and you can order.

But if the key person in an update gets another job, gets sick, loses a spouse to cancer, has anti-depression meds that suddenly seem to stop working, etc., everything goes haywire.  You build in a margin of error, but more than a little and the executives higher up get fussy.

Then there are the miscommunication issues.  One of the developers makes an assumption that turns out to be mistaken, and an entire software module has to be rewritten.  One of the managers asks how long it will take to implement X feature, but uses the wrong term for it and gets an answer that only accounts for a small fraction of the feature.  Etc.  

I'm _already_ getting bored coming up with scenarios that could explain the delays, but I've just barely started.  Development of good products is hard.  Throw in a schedule and customers who get irate when the schedule blows up and it gets worse.

These people are building something that we (those who post here at any rate) value and love.  We have a right to ask for high quality, and we have a right to value for our money.  But we also need to remember that mistakes happen and plans go awry.  If you are one of those people who has never screwed up, go ahead and throw that stone.  Otherwise, live with it.


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## CovertOps (Oct 1, 2010)

evilbob said:


> 2nded.  And it's not like they didn't know this stuff was coming.  (_We've_ known it was coming for at least 6 months and we don't even work there.)
> 
> I'm actually a big fan of "it's done when it's done" (I wouldn't even call the Character Builder "done", honestly), but I agree with r1:  throw us a bone!  I don't know if it's really worth my time to get a ~$5 rebate or whatever, but if they miss two months in a row it'll be worth the principle of the thing.






renau1g said:


> The problem is a snowball effect, now they have even more data to input, meaning even more time to work on it, but then they're already behind...and next month the new essentials stuff comes out right? I've given them a lot of slack with missed deadlines, broken promises, etc, but if they don't release _any_ update next Tuesday I'll be pretty pissed. I don't care if essentials is in it, just give me Dark Sun and Psionic Power...



They actually have two separate issues going on here.  First is the data updates which (no offense to anyone) can likely be done by trained monkeys.  The second part are the code updates (and likely database updates as well) that are REQUIRED in order to support the new "stuff" with both Dark Sun and Essentials.  You could get the data updates, but without the code/DB changes they'd be worthless.



renau1g said:


> I know they've got a huge amount of data to update, hence why I expressed concern about the snowball effect. If it takes them x hours in a normal month, now they have presumably x*2 or even 2.5 if essentials is as much work to integrate as I'd expect it is.
> 
> We all know they're under no legal obligation to provide their updates, thanks Jester. I don't believe anyone was threatening legal action though, people seem to be expressing disappointment.
> 
> My suggestion (which I have sent over, FWIW) is for them to update the "easy" stuff, i.e. Dungeon/Dragon articles, PP, and Dark Sun (assuming themes aren't too difficult to implement) on their regular release schedule of next Tuesday.




Once they announced the first deadline push back and said they'd be including essentials with it they were stuck.  As a developer, rolling back at this point would take longer than just going forward and pushing the release date back if necessary.  Also see my previous answer.

I also want to strongly second a previous poster.  *They will announce NO dates until they know it's done.  More than likely we'll get no more than a few days advance notice (if that).*


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## jbear (Oct 1, 2010)

AnthonyRoberson said:


> God bless the Internet and the fanboys that live there.



It's not my intention to get into a name calling session with you, although it looks like your upset enough to happily go there.

My comment was directed at the fact your post seemed like you were having a conversation with yourself. Or as if you're talking to Wotc, well we the good people of EnWorld are not Wotc. 

Your post was more akin to a Dear John letter or a suicide note.

If you had of actually raised an issue, I doubt I would have made any comment at all, but like I said, all you were doing was getting something off your chest. It is you who has come to share your frustrations with anonymous people on the internet. So, whatever, I'll refrain from calling names. It's not necessary. You're upset. I get that. Carry on.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 1, 2010)

renau1g said:


> I know they've got a huge amount of data to update, hence why I expressed concern about the snowball effect. If it takes them x hours in a normal month, now they have presumably x*2 or even 2.5 if essentials is as much work to integrate as I'd expect it is.
> 
> We all know they're under no legal obligation to provide their updates, thanks Jester. I don't believe anyone was threatening legal action though, people seem to be expressing disappointment.
> 
> My suggestion (which I have sent over, FWIW) is for them to update the "easy" stuff, i.e. Dungeon/Dragon articles, PP, and Dark Sun (assuming themes aren't too difficult to implement) on their regular release schedule of next Tuesday.



Updating the easy stuff may not be an option it all depends on weither the update delay is a data entry one or an application developement one.
If it is application development then a lot depends on how their development process works.
In my opinion an outfit lit Wizards that are doing regualr scheduled releases should be using an agile development process. That is all application methods should have test code written (ideally before the production code is written) and continous application integration and build. With the test automatically run after each build. 
If that is the case then they could release the last stable build that has completed features and whatever content that exposes.

Now the problem with that approach often is that senior management does not buy into that approach. The lines of test code written usually matches or exceeds the lines of production code and is seen as wasteful efford by many managements, despite all the studies to the contrary and that is in dedicated software development outfits. So Wizards management with no real development experience could be even harder to convince.

So if that is the case then they are now caught with unstable codebase and no way to just include completed features as the last known stable build was the August release.

Of course it could be much worse than that, in that some design choices made 2 years ago to get the CB out the door after the debacle of Glessmax et al is now biting them in the ass and now they need to rebuild something core (like say the database) in order to accomadate Essentials or the Dark Sun themes or what ever.


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## Zaran (Oct 1, 2010)

renau1g said:
			
		

> I know they've got a huge amount of data to update, hence why I expressed concern about the snowball effect. If it takes them x hours in a normal month, now they have presumably x*2 or even 2.5 if essentials is as much work to integrate as I'd expect it is.
> 
> We all know they're under no legal obligation to provide their updates, thanks Jester. I don't believe anyone was threatening legal action though, people seem to be expressing disappointment.
> 
> My suggestion (which I have sent over, FWIW) is for them to update the "easy" stuff, i.e. Dungeon/Dragon articles, PP, and Dark Sun (assuming themes aren't too difficult to implement) on their regular release schedule of next Tuesday.




Don't forget that they also said we have another round of errata this month. Which is supposed to rewrite wizard encounter spells


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## jbear (Oct 1, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Coming from someone who bitched and got a refund for September:
> 
> Calm down peeps. It's October 1st. They may not know the exact date yet that they'll get it out. The time to get irritated is not now, but around Halloween if they haven't updated by then.
> 
> ...



I'm glad you are lending your voice to that of reason. You have an issue. You did something about it, complaining to the right people. For now they have responded satisfactorily according to your post. Good for you (honestly).

As for me being a fan boy, assuming you are talking about me and my initial post, that in all fairness did make light of the OP's cries of woe, err ... fear not, I am just a normal person who found the OP's lament rather odd and pointless post. How that makes me a 'fan boy,' assuming that it is something you consider to be negative, I'm a little unclear. 

My personal opinion, I imagine a lot of people are working that arses off trying to get the update online as fast as they can. They probably have encountered problems and complications they hadn't forseen. I'm sure the second they resolve that they'll have the update available. My personal philosophy to stay sane in this messed up world: If you can't change your situation, change your atitude towards the situation.


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## Ahrimon (Oct 2, 2010)

I've come to the conclusion that fanboy is the generic label given to anyone who doesn't have an anti-wotc stance and doesn't agree with the other poster.

See also:
Fanboi
Apologist
Drinking the corperate cool-aid.


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## fba827 (Oct 2, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> Hey, is anyone else having trouble using WotC's "email customer service" feature? I can't get it to work.




I've been trying to use it for weeks and it isn't working for me either.

I just sort of hangs like it's trying to read something then gives me a confirmation screen, then seems to be reading the same thing again.

I've tried it on different computers and browsers and even with minimal security settings and still the same thing.

(I have been able to successfully use it in the past, as recently as a couple months ago, without a problem with the same browser).


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## mudbunny (Oct 2, 2010)

fba827 said:


> I've been trying to use it for weeks and it isn't working for me either.
> 
> I just sort of hangs like it's trying to read something then gives me a confirmation screen, then seems to be reading the same thing again.
> 
> ...




Try posting in this thread here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1133626) and the ORCs should be able to clear it up. Make sure to read the first post for instructions.

Of course, this is after clearing your cache, temp internet files, etc...


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## SabreCat (Oct 2, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> Of course it could be much worse than that, in that some design choices made 2 years ago to get the CB out the door after the debacle of Glessmax et al is now biting them in the ass and now they need to rebuild something core (like say the database) in order to accomadate Essentials or the Dark Sun themes or what ever.



As somebody who's not particularly bothered by a late update, I think this would be fantastic! Imagine the performance improvements and the bugs (e.g. Master's Wand of XX) they could straighten out by rewriting some of the core data structure...


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## Minifig (Oct 2, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> I've come to the conclusion that fanboy is the generic label given to anyone who doesn't have an anti-wotc stance and doesn't agree with the other poster.
> 
> See also:
> Fanboi
> ...




What if we're ambivalent/neutral to the point where we just.. don't care?


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## Markn (Oct 2, 2010)

Minifig said:


> What if we're ambivalent/neutral to the point where we just.. don't care?




Depending upon your edition, that's called True Neutral or Unaligned.


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## Minifig (Oct 2, 2010)

I _really_ want to subscribe to D&DI for the Character Creator, but dang, I don't want to pay the five bucks for it... especially if you guys are saying there hasn't been an update in a while.. .

I just want the ability to keep track of my character while we play in 4.0e.. but.. dang, 5 bucks? That's a meal in my stomach.


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## Markn (Oct 2, 2010)

Minifig said:


> I _really_ want to subscribe to D&DI for the Character Creator, but dang, I don't want to pay the five bucks for it... especially if you guys are saying there hasn't been an update in a while.. .
> 
> I just want the ability to keep track of my character while we play in 4.0e.. but.. dang, 5 bucks? That's a meal in my stomach.




I wouldn't look at it that way.  You get both the Dungeon and Dragon magazine subscriptions (sure they get flak but there still is a lot of useful things in there like maps, art, ideas that you can mine, etc), the CB (which my guess is they are about to release a new version of it and even if I am wrong its still a very handy tool), the Adventure Tool for the DM which is hands down the best thing they have (even though its not perfect it is incredibly useful) and access to sone DDI content only such as playtests and pre-previews.  I thinks its worth the money myself.


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## Minifig (Oct 2, 2010)

Well, now I'm having even more second thoughts. My friend bought his sub, and the character creator won't install as a full client no matter what he does.. :/


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## Minifig (Oct 2, 2010)

I just want to say trying to set up the demo of the Character Creator a Laptop with a Pentium 4-M, 1.7GHz, 256MB, 30GB is like subjugating a quadriplegic snail to run through a labyrinth of salt while a slowly burning fuse leads to an m-80 firework strapped to its back. 

Massive disappointment here for me as I was going to use it to track my characters progress and stuff while we played D&D 4e.


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## Ahrimon (Oct 2, 2010)

Minifig said:


> What if we're ambivalent/neutral to the point where we just.. don't care?




I'd say you were a rare person for an internet forum.  

As for it running slow, it's probably the .net.  It's slow even on fairly beefy computers.


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## drothgery (Oct 2, 2010)

Minifig said:


> I just want to say trying to set up the demo of the Character Creator a Laptop with a Pentium 4-M, 1.7GHz, 256MB, 30GB is like subjugating a quadriplegic snail to run through a labyrinth of salt while a slowly burning fuse leads to an m-80 firework strapped to its back.
> 
> Massive disappointment here for me as I was going to use it to track my characters progress and stuff while we played D&D 4e.




It's not entirely clear to me if you're being serious here or not.

If you are... your computer is over 7 years old. $200 netbooks have 4 times the RAM, 5 times the hard drive space, and more powerful CPUs.


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## Jack99 (Oct 2, 2010)

AnthonyRoberson said:


> Well, the October calendar is up and there is STILL no scheduled Character Builder update dammit.  I did my part WOTC.  Even though I swore that I would never play 4E again until the Game Table was released, I still bought your Essentials books.  I re-subscribed to DDI.  I actually even got a little excited about a reinvigorated game.  And now you pull this crap.



Essentials would normally not be out until October, and last I checked, October isn't over yet. The calendar is a dynamic document and can be changed at any time. Plan is still to release, just no date yet.


drothgery said:


> It's not entirely clear to me if you're being serious here or not.
> 
> If you are... your computer is over 7 years old. $200 netbooks have 4 times the RAM, 5 times the hard drive space, and more powerful CPUs.



I think my phone is more powerful  - no wonder he has issues.


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## Minifig (Oct 2, 2010)

drothgery said:


> It's not entirely clear to me if you're being serious here or not.
> 
> If you are... your computer is over 7 years old. $200 netbooks have 4 times the RAM, 5 times the hard drive space, and more powerful CPUs.




I am being 100% serious...and thankfully, the machine, is not my primary machine.

It's just a laptop I decided to borrow from my sixty-two year old father and my mother in an attempt to have a laptop to run the character creator while we play 4e.. and sadly, it's ... really, *really*, *really*, _*really*_ slow.

So slow, that I may not even be able to use it for my idea. 



Jack99 said:


> I think my phone is more powerful  - no wonder he has issues.




My Casio Atomic Watch has more memory than the laptop we're talking about.


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## dvvega (Oct 2, 2010)

It is strange but I always thought the updates were due October ... I do not know where I read that or where I saw it.

This same "argument" was had with another player in my group who swore black and blue that it would be September. 

At least - no matter where I heard the October option - it has made me less susceptible to raging about this.

D


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## pming (Oct 2, 2010)

Hiya.

Uh, it's still October. Until the calendar hits "November 1st", they're ok.

PS: Just an observation...I don't even play/own 4e, DDI, etc.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Ktulu (Oct 2, 2010)

pming said:


> Hiya.
> 
> Uh, it's still October. Until the calendar hits "November 1st", they're ok.
> 
> ...






Dagnabbit, Paul! We're not here to be calm and rational.  The intarwebs have sanctions against such blasphemous actions.  Go drink tea and be all zen somewhere else!  I, for one, am going to start chewing on my keyboard*.



*Not really, I'm completely happy with the products I've received from WotC, and will continue to keep my subscription and wait with gleeful anticipation...until November 1.  After that, Stuff gets Real.


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## Cor_Malek (Oct 2, 2010)

Minifig said:


> I _really_ want to subscribe to D&DI for the Character Creator, but dang, I don't want to pay the five bucks for it... especially if you guys are saying there hasn't been an update in a while.. .
> 
> I just want the ability to keep track of my character while we play in 4.0e.. but.. dang, 5 bucks? That's a meal in my stomach.





Do not renew it after initial purchase then. Keep track of when the next update comes out and buy the shortest sub possible shortly after it does - remember, that you get the CB with *all* the stuff that was released, ever. Heck, buy it *today -* you'll get everything that was already released and updated, and you'll either get another update with essentials, or get a refund for the month (so basically you get +1 month free ). No update in time beats no CB at all.

As to problems with CB - it requires Net Framework or whazzitcalled installed (same stuff GTAIV needs) - what system do you use? Do you have it up to date with everything? There really isn't that much to the CB itself, it's not a complex or demanding program, your computer should do just fine.
I _once_ managed to launch the demo on Wine layer on Ubuntu, but then I was so happy with myself that I tinkered with it more and had to nuke whole Wine from the orbit to launch anything, and wasn't able to reproduce the configuration since. It installed on XP with no problems though.

CB is fun to play with for me to the state where I keep the demo on hard drive just to tinker around with it, create some characters (ah, the elusive 4th level, what would you bring to me...) and use it to participate in some plot threads regarding 4e adventures... And I don't even play the 4e  If I did, I'd certainly buy at least one subscription - the retroactive content access makes it more than worth the buck (and note the discrepancy in worth of goods - 10 bucks would buy here: 100g of really good green tea (that's a *lot* of friggin tea - you brew green (and white?) three times)/7 great beers (or 14 cheap but good ones)/a bottle of Chianti/a bottle of Carlo Rossi + about 8-portions of bolognese to go with it (if cooked, only a glass of wine and one portion in a restaurant)...).

As to meal in the stomach - I feel you, brotha! People often don't realize how small fees can accumulate to monstrous amounts of lost cash. But sometimes we just have to let it go, sometimes the same wine/tea/book costs x2 as regular, but is worth ten times as much. In this case it might be equivalent of one meal (or several in many countries outside of US, actually), but if you start playing with it in Saturday morning, you might find that, suddenly - it's already midnight , and you missed several meals either way. And that's with the _demo_.

If you have enough green tea or exercise to justify the cholesterol - try out my version* of French toasts (definitely _not_ a breakfast recipe):
[sblock=recipe]- 2 beaten eggs
- add a tablespoon of milk (_after_ you beat the eggs! Otherwise it's hard to mix it together) and mix it. You might want to add salt, or other spices at this point.
- dip bread (preferably full grain, definitely *not* toast-bread) - it makes for ~3 loafs per egg if the bread is dense, set aside and put frying pan on (no need for oil if it's Teflon)
- Put the loafs on the pan, and cut several slices of tomato, turn the loafs over, put a lid on pan.
- cut enough slices to cover the loafs, turn the loafs over again.
- After a while (~1 min?) turn them over yet again, put the tomato and cheese on topside, and put the lid on top again (otherwise the cheese won't melt). Wait only a while - so that the cheese melts but not too long, or it'll give moisture to the loafs. If you catch the right moment they're going to be crispy [/sblock]
Voila! 2 eggs, 6 loafs of bread, half of tomato and some cheese will immobilize for an hour even me, and I can take a _lot_ of food in. It's very nutritive, so it's not empty calories, and it's a good excuse to get the DDI sub. Don't overdo it though if you're blood type 0 though.

* I actually though it was standard, then I though it was the European version, and finally it seems that the closest variation to this, is the Hungarian _Bundáskenyér_ (fluffy bread), proving yet again that Lengyel, magyar – két jó barát, együtt harcol, s issza borát.


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## drothgery (Oct 2, 2010)

Minifig said:


> I am being 100% serious...and thankfully, the machine, is not my primary machine.
> 
> It's just a laptop I decided to borrow from my sixty-two year old father and my mother in an attempt to have a laptop to run the character creator while we play 4e.. and sadly, it's ... really, *really*, *really*, _*really*_ slow.
> 
> So slow, that I may not even be able to use it for my idea.




Really, it's the 256 MB of memory that's the big problem. A 1.7 GHz P4-M isn't all that slow compared to a netbook Atom (though the latter is far, far more power efficient), and as long as you have a few gigs free for swap space, the 30 GB hard drive isn't a huge problem either. But spending $50 on memory for a laptop that old probably isn't practical (surprisingly, crucial.com still sells DDR1 notebook memory, which if my  memory's not failing me, should probably be what that laptop uses; if  it uses the even-older notebook SDRAM, then it's $150 for 1 GB of RAM, and definitely not worth it).


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## Festivus (Oct 2, 2010)

Somehow I sense a business opportunity here.  Rent a virtual Windows 7 box that you can connect to with a remote desktop client.  Heck, Wizards could even offer a service like this for a surcharge to the DDI fee, not that I would expect them to.  I haven't looked, but I bet you can find such a service... problem is it probably will cost as much as a monthly payment on a new Dell PC.


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## kmdietri (Oct 2, 2010)

Well, I don't know if this was their intention, but as someone who hasn't bought a book since they stopped being sold as pdf's if they delay much longer I may... just may have to go out and buy some dead tree copies.


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## Minifig (Oct 3, 2010)

I was reading the July Errata and it said that the next update for the Errata would be October 5th...

So maybe the next update is October 5th for everything big.. including the Character creator?


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## shmoo2 (Oct 3, 2010)

pming said:


> Uh, it's still October. Until the calendar hits "November 1st", they're ok.






			
				D&DI Team said:
			
		

> and we plan to update the Character Builder in early October.




The latest information we have from WoTC is that the September 21 update was moved back to early October. 
You're suggesting they have until November 1st to make it by the end of early October?
I think most of us reasonably expected to get the update by October 15 at the latest, if they were to meet the above estimated deadline.


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## Mapache (Oct 3, 2010)

Festivus said:


> Somehow I sense a business opportunity here.  Rent a virtual Windows 7 box that you can connect to with a remote desktop client.  Heck, Wizards could even offer a service like this for a surcharge to the DDI fee, not that I would expect them to.  I haven't looked, but I bet you can find such a service... problem is it probably will cost as much as a monthly payment on a new Dell PC.




Amazon already offers such services:  how to run #dnd character builder on mac, linux and ipad - Brindy's Blog


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## Holy Bovine (Oct 3, 2010)

Minifig said:


> I was reading the July Errata and it said that the next update for the Errata would be October 5th...
> 
> So maybe the next update is October 5th for everything big.. including the Character creator?




I wouldn't put stock in any quoted date until you see it on the October calender myself.  As long as there is an update this month I won't be too disappointed if its late October as opposed to early.


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## Minifig (Oct 3, 2010)

Holy Bovine said:


> I wouldn't put stock in any quoted date until you see it on the October calender myself.  As long as there is an update this month I won't be too disappointed if its late October as opposed to early.




I'm not putting any stock in it what-so-ever, but, I thought it was interesting that the July 2010 Errata said that they'd update again ..October 5th.. 2010.

So.. That would explain why we've seen a massive delay.

That and we're also getting ready for a massive change over to the Essentials system, so they may be converting the entire character creator to get ready for the Essential systems. They may need to over-haul the entire thing so that it works with .. well.. at least what we do know about Essentials.


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## Lord Xtheth (Oct 3, 2010)

abyssaldeath said:


> No, it would be unprofessional to give us some arbitrary date that they can't be sure that they can uphold. You see this sort of thing happen all the time in the video game industry and I can tell you I would rather wait until they can finish the work properly than some half finished update because they want to keep to a strict release date.



Duke Nukem Forever?

Kidding aside, here's my theory as why its taking so long:

Essentials made it so the character builder requires a <"New format">. WoTC employees were instructed from <Date X> forward to write every entry for the CB update in the <New Format>.

The <New Format> requires re-writing of ALL of the old data to comply with the <New Format>. I'll take a further guess and say they probably need to put new "tags" on powers, feats, etc. to be properly understood under the <New Format>. Any previous information will not work properly with the <New Format> and will cause bugs, crashes, dead computers, etc.

Re-Writing everything from <Date X> on to now in the <Old Format> will only take MORE time and effort (That they can't spare because they're busy updating everything to the <New Format>), so that is out of the question.

There is a whole bunch of information in the <Old Format> that needs to be changed to the <New Format> and it's taking alot longer than WoTC expected. Overtime is out of the question because (just let me remind you this is all guesswork at the moment) someone at Hasbro says "overtime is not in the budget for this progect".

As soon as everything is converted into the <New Format> we will get the release.

Does this stop me from wanting my Dark Sun update NOW? No 

There, I said it. If I'm right, give me XPs when the NDA is over!


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## Prestidigitalis (Oct 3, 2010)

Lord Xtheth said:


> Kidding aside, here's my theory as why its taking so long:




Reasonable theory.  If they were smart they had a version tag from the start, and the new CB will support tags with either value.  That way they can release even if all the data isn't perfectly groomed.


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## J. R. Scherer (Oct 3, 2010)

Fingers crossed that it will be available before D&D Encounters this week.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 3, 2010)

I'll be curious to see what the end results are going to be.

For example, if they can't handle updating the CB now, what's going to happen if they ever come out with another tool? The Monster bit is still in beta.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see an increased announced soon.


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## Jack99 (Oct 3, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> I'll be curious to see what the end results are going to be.
> 
> For example, if they can't handle updating the CB now, what's going to happen if they ever come out with another tool? The Monster bit is still in beta.
> 
> I wouldn't be surprised if we see an increased announced soon.




I do not things you can compare. The issue this month is because the Essentials AND Dark Sun both have introduced major changes to the baseline classes. I doubt we will see as large changes in the near future. Which means that once another tool is released, they will hopefully be able to cope. That said, an increase in price is of course always possible.


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## Shazman (Oct 4, 2010)

J. R. Scherer said:


> Fingers crossed that it will be available before D&D Encounters this week.




I wouldn't hold my breath.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 4, 2010)

Now that my Online DM (@TheClone) has offered to run a Dark Sun campaign for our "short one player of the normal campaign" I desperately need the update _now._ 

<- This is me, mad-foam-raging on the possibility that I cannot update the CB tomorrow.


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## Mika (Oct 4, 2010)

shmoo2 said:


> The latest information we have from WoTC is that the September 21 update was moved back to early October.
> You're suggesting they have until November 1st to make it by the end of early October?
> I think most of us reasonably expected to get the update by October 15 at the latest, if they were to meet the above estimated deadline.




Since these updates usually occur on a Tuesday, we are left with either the 5th (tomorrow) or the 12th (next week) as the only likely times for an "early October" update -- the 19th is definitely NOT "early October".

The bad news is that we have not heard even a hint of a Character Builder update tomorrow -- and we all know what happened the last time it was left off the Content Calendar.

The good news is that we also have not heard even a hint that the announcement in July of a major rules update tomorrow has been postponed.  Unlike the Character Builder updates, rules updates are not normally posted on the Content Calendar -- so the default assumption is that we will get that, at least, tomorrow.


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## renau1g (Oct 5, 2010)

Mika said:


> so the default assumption is that we will get that, at least, tomorrow.




which will then need to be updated in the CB, pushing it back further...


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## fanboy2000 (Oct 5, 2010)

AnthonyRoberson said:


> God bless the Internet and the fanboys that live there.



Well, thanks. I rather like it here on the internet.



P1NBACK said:


> Sadly, the WotC fanboys are already jumping on this thread making little and fun of our dissatisfaction.



I have done no such thing! In fact, I've pretty much stayed out of the DDI update threads.



Ahrimon said:


> I've come to the conclusion that fanboy is the generic label given to anyone who doesn't have an anti-wotc stance and doesn't agree with the other poster.



Fanboy is what my dear mom used to call me back in Canada. We'd hang out by a hole in the ice, waiting for seals to pop out for dinner, (mmmmmm, seal) and she'd call me her little fanboy. Never mind what the "fan" part meant. It definitely had nothing to do with methane.


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 5, 2010)

I can't belive that we ar eyet to hear anything... 

If they knew today that it wasn't ready for tomorro and didn't let us know...

I don't understand why they can't tell us what is going on...


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## Shazman (Oct 5, 2010)

So here we are.  October 5th and still no update.  Some rules updates and that's it.  Please, everyone who has subscribed to get the updates, that are now absent for two months straight, start cancelling your subscriptions.  Send WotC the clear message that no updates = no money.


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## Scribble (Oct 5, 2010)

Shazman said:


> So here we are.  October 5th and still no update.  Some rules updates and that's it.  Please, everyone who has subscribed to get the updates, that are now absent for two months straight, start cancelling your subscriptions.  Send WotC the clear message that no updates = no money.




I will do this if they start routinely slipping for regular updates. Not for missed updates due to heavy re-implementation of the system.

Until then- I'm quite happy with my subscription. 

Sorry you're not.


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## Scribble (Oct 5, 2010)

Interesting...

If you go on the compendium- the DS Campaign Guide is listed as is Essentials HoTFL, but nothing is loaded from it yet.


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## MrMyth (Oct 5, 2010)

Shazman said:


> So here we are. October 5th and still no update. Some rules updates and that's it. Please, everyone who has subscribed to get the updates, that are now absent for two months straight, start cancelling your subscriptions. Send WotC the clear message that no updates = no money.




I think calling the updates absent for October is a little premature only 5 days into the month. 

Which isn't to say I am not eager to see it, but... thus far, they have only missed one month's update. And have proven willing to compensate people for that month. I understand your frustration, but I'm not sure some of the claims you are making are truly accurate. 

Actually, wait a sec... I'm not sure I do understand your frustration. From what I've seen, you've been a pretty vocal opponent of 4E. Do you actually have a subscription to DDI? Does this actually impact you, personally, in any way? 

If not, than I'd suggest letting subscribers decide for themselves whether or not to be upset, and when to stop paying for this service.


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## Nymrohd (Oct 5, 2010)

Are people having such a hard time making toons without the CB? I understand being indignant about the delay for a feature you paid for, I share the feeling. But I can make toons with paper and pencil very easily in 4E.


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## True_Blue (Oct 5, 2010)

95% of the stuff the PC's in my group need is in the CB.  They don't seem to have any trouble making up a character, tweaking it in 5-10 mins, and then having a character ready to go.

There's literally only a few things I needed to change or add, and it was really simple.  I think the frustration is from two things, one is people's sense of entitlement and that a one month's hiccup is a cause for a big tirade, and second is that people don't want to put forth the effort to not do everything in the CB.


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## Shazman (Oct 5, 2010)

Yeah it is amazing that people feel entitled to get something they paid for.  The nerve of those people complaining after they paid for something in advance, and failed to receive it two months in a row.  Why would someone be upset about literally throwing money away?  As a side note, many people depend on the character builder because they don't have many books.  Many don't see the need to spend 30 to 40 bucks on a book that will be outdated in a few months when they can get everything they need via the CB and MB to make characters and monsters at a fraction of the price. For example, it's pretty hard to make an "iron body" monk if you don't have access to psionic power.


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## Scribble (Oct 5, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Yeah it is amazing that people feel entitled to get something they paid for.  The nerve of those people complaining after they paid for something in advance, and failed to receive it two months in a row.  Why would someone be upset about literally throwing money away?  As a side note, many people depend on the character builder because they don't have many books.  Many don't see the need to spend 30 to 40 bucks on a book that will be outdated in a few months when they can get everything they need via the CB and MB to make characters and monsters at a fraction of the price. For example, it's pretty hard to make an "iron body" monk if you don't have access to psionic power.




Uh... They offered a full refund for September, so if you're throwing your money away... that's kind of your fault there isn't it? 

Personally I think a lot of people over react. 

Personally I still get my other subscription items, and I will get the update once it comes out, so nothing lost on my end. It's just taking longer then normal, and I feel the reason is somewhat valid.

It sucks to have to wait, but such is life. Sometimes life has delays.

So...

You can get your money back for September.  (And keep all the other stuff your subscription got you to boot...)

It's still October last I checked, so we haven't missed out on anything from October yet.

Where's the issue? (I'm seriously not seeing it.)


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## True_Blue (Oct 5, 2010)

WotC has literally stood by the terms to which you agreed upon when you purchased it.

If I tell a customer that I will usually deliver milk to their door the first Sunday of a month, but that I can't promise it to happen every month, and if I miss a month, I'll make sure they get the product that they missed out on the previous month and the next month, and then I miss a month, I would find it crazy that a customer would call me up and complain.  I literally informed them, they had to read over the agreement *and* agree to it before they purchased.  I followed everything to the letter.


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## P1NBACK (Oct 5, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> WotC has literally stood by the terms to which you agreed upon when you purchased it.
> 
> If I tell a customer that I will usually deliver milk to their door the first Sunday of a month, but that I can't promise it to happen every month, and if I miss a month, I'll make sure they get the product that they missed out on the previous month and the next month, and then I miss a month, I would find it crazy that a customer would call me up and complain.  I literally informed them, they had to read over the agreement *and* agree to it before they purchased.  I followed everything to the letter.




lol... I would never buy milk from you. I'd buy my milk from the guy who delivered monthly. 

...

Scribble has the right idea here. 

A) If you're dissatisfied with the lack of update in September, email CS and ask for a refund. They will give you one (they did for me at least). 

B) WotC never specified exactly when the October update would be out and what it would include. So, getting upset because it's not out on the 5th is not reasonable. If you want to get upset, get upset on the 31st of October.


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## True_Blue (Oct 5, 2010)

And yet people do buy CB which follows the same premise.  Everyone had to agree to the terms that WotC set.  They will update the CB every month if they can, but they may miss months.  People click ok and then pay WotC.  Then a month comes along where they dont get an update, and they fly into rage as if the company screwed them over.

Its just...amazing.  You *literally* were told this could happen, are you sure you want to do this, you said yes and paid, and then when it happened, you are incredulous and say you deserve a refund.  I just am floored that so many people agreed upon a set of terms, WotC carries on and follows those terms, and people get up in arms demanding refunds.

Now I can understand a person who agrees to some terms, has things happen, decides they do not like those terms anymore, and then inform WotC that they no longer like those terms and could you please change them.  Or even cancelling the product because those terms ended up being harder to handle than what you originally thought.  But to yell at the company and make it out as if its the company's fault and how you deserve the company to go above and even beyond the terms that were agreed upon?  I just can't think of it as any other thing but entitlement, a self-centered attitude.  Its more about what am I entitled to, not what was agreed upon and did each party get what they agreed upon.

This actually came out harsher when I reread it, but its still true.  Its one thing to voice dissatisfaction that the agreed upon terms were harder than what you thought they were going to be.  Its another thing to insist the company literally screwed you over and you deserve some of your money back, when the company followed the agreement and did nothing wrong.


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## renau1g (Oct 5, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Yeah it is amazing that people feel entitled to get something they paid for.  The nerve of those people complaining after they paid for something in advance, and failed to receive it two one months in a row.  Why would someone be upset about literally throwing money away? receiving a full refund for only a partial nondelivery which still satisfied the terms and conditions the customer agreed to?




Fixed it for you Shazzy. I wonder the same thing about your last point


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## P1NBACK (Oct 5, 2010)

True_Blue said:


> And yet people do buy CB which follows the same premise.  Everyone had to agree to the terms that WotC set.  They will update the CB every month if they can, but they may miss months.  People click ok and then pay WotC.  Then a month comes along where they dont get an update, and they fly into rage as if the company screwed them over.




I don't see anyone flying into a rage. I just see disappointed and dissatisfied customers who have come to expect this service as part of their subscription package. 



True_Blue said:


> Its just...amazing.  You *literally* were told this could happen, are you sure you want to do this, you said yes and paid, and then when it happened, you are incredulous and say you deserve a refund.  I just am floored that so many people agreed upon a set of terms, WotC carries on and follows those terms, and people get up in arms demanding refunds.




lol... It's one thing to "follow the terms" and another to abide by an expectation set by the service you are providing and the paying customers needs and wants. 

As the analogy said before, when I go into a restaurant, that restaurant may not be legally obliged to give me good customer service, serve my food quickly and hot, and refill my drinks when they are low. But, it's definitely expected. 

If WotC wants to keep customers (and it certainly appears they do) they refund the dissatisfied customers. Same concept. Otherwise, I cancel my annual subscription entirely (which I've had since the get-go) and you don't get any of my hard-earned dollars. Yeah? 



True_Blue said:


> Now I can understand a person who agrees to some terms, has things happen, decides they do not like those terms anymore, and then inform WotC that they no longer like those terms and could you please change them.  Or even cancelling the product because those terms ended up being harder to handle than what you originally thought.  But to yell at the company and make it out as if its the company's fault and how you deserve the company to go above and even beyond the terms that were agreed upon?  I just can't think of it as any other thing but entitlement, a self-centered attitude.  Its more about what am I entitled to, not what was agreed upon and did each party get what they agreed upon.




Oh yeah. I definitely expect companies to go "above and beyond" - that's what any customer expects. That's what separates good, successful companies from lousy ones. 



True_Blue said:


> This actually came out harsher when I reread it, but its still true.  Its one thing to voice dissatisfaction that the agreed upon terms were harder than what you thought they were going to be.  Its another thing to insist the company literally screwed you over and you deserve some of your money back, when the company followed the agreement and did nothing wrong.




I don't think anyone is arguing about a company "doing nothing wrong" in this sense. It's about the company providing the service as expected. 

The reason that clause is in there is not because WotC isn't obliged to provide the updates, it's because WotC wants legal backing so they don't get sued in an instance where they don't get the updates out. 

That doesn't mean the customers don't want/need/expect those updates. And a smart company does well to ensure that the customer is serviced in this respect. 

In the example of your milk man business, if I were your competitor, I would probably have a similar contract (to avoid being sued), but where you would turn a cold shoulder to the customer who didn't get their milk, I'd give them a free month's supply, or extend their contract, or give them twice as much milk. It's called customer service. When we enter into these contracts, we do well by each other to maintain a reasonable business relationship. WotC surely isn't going to "patiently wait a month" if I skip my fees. 

It's a two-way street. 

And, luckily, WotC doesn't have your philosophy on customer service and expectations. Luckily, WotC is the milk man that wants to take care of their customer base (because as any business major will tell you, it costs more to get a new customer than to keep an old one - especially those loyal enough to stay with you even though you completely butchered the original vision of the product). 

Yeah?


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## Scribble (Oct 5, 2010)

That's prettyy much the mainstay of Customer Service and Account Management... Under Promise and over deliver. 

If I can't get a report to you until Thursday, I'll tell you I can't get it to you until at least Monday.  


Then when I DO get it to you on Thursday I went out of my way to get you that report early.

Same thing here... WoTC under promises, "We don't guarantee we'll get you the updates every month." Then over delivers when they normally do...

 Whenever you inevitably end up over promising and under delivering, then you go into apology mode.

It's not groveling mode though, as some seem to want.

It starts with an explanation, and a statement of what you can do to fix it, or at least mitigate the damages and you go from there. 

In this case WoTC started with, hey we're sorry this is the reason for the delay, and then followed up with what they were doing (working to get it out early October.)

For some that's enough. Myself included. For others it's not, and so WoTC offered a refund.


All the while they never fell back on - well that's what you signed up for so nya...

Despite what they say, when it comes to stuff like this, and people actually dealing with the company (and not just sounding off on the internet) WoTC is pretty respectful of their clientèle.


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## interwyrm (Oct 5, 2010)

I'd be happy enough if they only updated the compendium. I rely heavily on the CB, but as long as it's in the compendium, I can still make a character.

I used to heavily pirate RPG books, but stopped entirely since purchasing my subscription. At this point, I am frustrated enough, and feel somewhat entitled to go looking for pdfs until they update the services.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 5, 2010)

_mad foam raging_ I say. _mad foam raging_.


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## True_Blue (Oct 5, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> And, luckily, WotC doesn't have your philosophy on customer service and expectations. Luckily, WotC is the milk man that wants to take care of their customer base (because as any business major will tell you, it costs more to get a new customer than to keep an old one - especially those loyal enough to stay with you even though you completely butchered the original vision of the product).
> 
> Yeah?




I would say this is unlucky, personally.  What has happened is because people feel like they should expect things that arent agreed upon, the company has to figure that into their business model.  Which means other people potentially have to pay more because some people will try to eek out a little more product than what they deserve.  So basically costs rise to take this into account.

I don't believe that WotC literally said they needed to add an extra $1 to the cost so that they can cover this instance by any means.  But its something they have to talk about, plan, etc when it comes down to how much to charge people for a product.  A product costs them X amount of money, but then you have to add in all the unknown's, and this is definitely one of them.

I guess its amazing to me that not only do you (sort of) admit that they are following the terms that you agreed to, but that you are proud you can eek even more out of them.  You seem to have the attitude that you should get money back, i.e. part of the product for free, because of what you *expect* to happen, and not what was agreed upon by both parties.  You have entered agreement where you both agreed that you would get X and they would get money, and then you complain that they did not give you X + Y, so you want your money back.  Its definitely an entitlement issue and sad to see more and more in the country.

They told you in no uncertain terms that you get Dragon, Dungeon, Monster Builder, all the old CB updates, and any new CB updates *if* they come out that month.  If not CB updates come out that month, than thats just how things fall.  You said "Hey that's cool with me, here's my money" and then paid.  They followed their obligations for the month in September, and then you turn around and are flumoxed they didnt give you an update.

You see this as a good thing, that you are able to get up in arms and the company caves and gives you money back because later after the agreement you demanded more than what you agreed upon.  I see it as a bad case of the "entitlements".  You would be livid if WotC came back and said "Hey you know how you paid us $X for a month's of service.. well, we *expected* you to pay $X+2".  You would say "what!? We agreed upon you doing this much and I pay this amount, how could you just assume it would change??"

The fact of the matter is that the company is nice enough to go ahead and give you back a refund for the month, and thats very nice of them.  Thats a good Customer Service and a good company right there.  But make no mistake, you don't deserve it.  You don't.  You can claim that they should, and that it makes them more money, etc.  You can come up with all sorts of reasons why you should get it.  But the fact of the matter is that when it comes down to it, its not right for you to demand the money back.  Whether you got a refund or not doesn't justify it as "right".  You just happened to have explained to them how financially its better for them to do so.  Again, it does not make it right.

In the end though, its just a CB and a refund of like $5-6, so not a big deal overall.  Its just sad, in my own eyes, that this happens in lots of transactions everyday and how people are changed by it in their attitudes toward things.  Sure, one thing is only $5-6, but now translate that to all the things the person does in a year, and it definitely warps people's sensibilities.


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## Dumnbunny (Oct 5, 2010)

Nymrohd said:


> Are people having such a hard time making toons without the CB?



Yes, absolutely. Normally I like making characters in various systems, considering it kind of a sub-hobby in and of itself. With 4e I've found the process of making characters by hand almost physically painful whenever I've tried it. Flipping through three or more books for power options, six or more for feats, various other books for various other options, and then I realize I need a 13 in some stat for some feat and now I have to redo all the math. And after I've done all that I have to write out the race and class features, feats and powers by hand.

No freaking way, not happening, not again. Life is too short.

So I guess you could say that I am indeed voting with my wallet. I buy everything WotC publishes for 4e, I just hold off on buying any book with character options, and refuse to build characters using those options, until the character builder is updated with that book's content.


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## BobTheNob (Oct 5, 2010)

How to create threads like this

Step A) Get a tea cup
Step B) Put a storm in it

I would much rather take the energy complaining spent about this situation and channel it into something useful and fun, like doing my tax return, which will end up getting me far more money for my efforts than trying to scrimp out a refund from WOTC

Pick your battles people...


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## Raikun (Oct 5, 2010)

Dumnbunny said:


> Yes, absolutely. Normally I like making characters in various systems, considering it kind of a sub-hobby in and of itself. With 4e I've found the process of making characters by hand almost physically painful whenever I've tried it. Flipping through three or more books for power options, six or more for feats, various other books for various other options, and then I realize I need a 13 in some stat for some feat and now I have to redo all the math. And after I've done all that I have to write out the race and class features, feats and powers by hand.
> 
> No freaking way, not happening, not again. Life is too short.




Which, of course, is why we're fortunate that the CB still does in fact work for the vast majority of options available in 4e. =)


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## P1NBACK (Oct 5, 2010)

@true blue 

Nah. See, I see it as the opposite. It's your duty as a consumer to complain when things aren't as you expect them to be. That's not 'entitlement' as you put it. Entitlement is wanting something for nothing. That's not the case here. We're all paying customers. We just want the product we want. 

Which brings us to refunds. A terrible business plan is to increase your prices for those months you'll be late. A better business plan is to get the updates out on time so you don't need to refund anyone to calm the dissatisfaction in the first place. 

That's why I'd encourage anyone dissatisfied with the lack of update (for September) to email CS and communicate that yes, you do want monthly updates - that's what is going to keep you around as a customer. 

By expressing this to WotC in a polite and courteous request for a refund, WotC gets a clear picture about what the consumers, their customers want, what they care about. 

Of course, if you're fine with the lack of update, no biggie. Proceed with normal life.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 5, 2010)

Too bad WoTC didn't know that 4.5, I mean, essentials would trash their software. It's so bad it can't even be referenced in the comepndium! It's so staggering that even the rules updates can be updated to the CB! 

I'll be curious to see when the CB and MB get updated but since I'm not the GM right now and I'm not using anything special thanks to playing ze dumb fighter, I'm okay.

I am wondering how many times people are going to keep pitching the legal angel that WoTC isn't required to ever update anything ever again though. It's like they see people here threatening to take legal action and must, as good citizens, inform them that no, there will be no legal action fellow citizen.

Those people need to seriously 'READ' the complaints. It's not people threatening legal action, just people pissed that something they enjoy and rely on isn't working out as it has in the past and that they hope it gets fixed quickly.

Notice that WoTC isn't going, "We're not required to legally update anything" and that's because that would lose them more customers than the failure to update even for the whole month of October. The legalize is there to protect them from legal action, not shut up waves of customers who are concerned with their purchase.


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## Obryn (Oct 6, 2010)

Shazman said:


> So here we are.  October 5th and still no update.  Some rules updates and that's it.  Please, everyone who has subscribed to get the updates, that are now absent for two months straight, start cancelling your subscriptions.  Send WotC the clear message that no updates = no money.



What do you care?

Why not leave this to folks who have some actual stake in the matter, and stop trying to incite more drama?

-O


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Oct 6, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> @true blue
> 
> Nah. See, I see it as the opposite. It's your duty as a consumer to complain when things aren't as you expect them to be. That's not 'entitlement' as you put it. Entitlement is wanting something for nothing. That's not the case here. We're all paying customers. We just want the product we want.




That's well and true, but I don't see what good complaining to US does, though... we are in no position to change anything.  Wouldn't it be better to bring the matter to the attention of WotC instead?

To me this thread just seems like some people are offended by what WotC has done and wanting others to be offended too.


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## Jools (Oct 6, 2010)

Well the errata is up at least.


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## Markn (Oct 6, 2010)

Jools said:


> Well the errata is up at least.




How dare you put something constructive into this thread!  For shame!


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## Ahrimon (Oct 6, 2010)

interwyrm said:


> I'd be happy enough if they only updated the compendium. I rely heavily on the CB, but as long as it's in the compendium, I can still make a character.
> 
> I used to heavily pirate RPG books, but stopped entirely since purchasing my subscription. At this point, I am frustrated enough, and feel somewhat entitled to go looking for pdfs until they update the services.




I think this has a lot to do with some people being upset.  Many people have realised that they don't need to purchase the books anymore.  Since everything you need to make a character is in the compendium and the CB.  They want their toys but don't want to have to buy them.

In all fairness to those who have a subscription we are buying access to the material in CB/compendium format.  We just get a differant release date.


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## Nifft (Oct 6, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> I think this has a lot to do with some people being upset.  Many people have realised that they don't need to purchase the books anymore.  Since everything you need to make a character is in the compendium and the CB.  They want their toys but don't want to have to buy them.



 If they're paying for DDI, they might argue that they did buy the toys. It's not free.

But I think many people complaining about not having CB working are the ones who do own at least one of the newer books. So far as I can see, they're frustrated that they paid twice for some source material, and now they don't have a convenient way to add that material to their character.

I'm among the people who only pay for DDI and don't buy books any more, and I'm not all that upset -- I don't know exactly what CB is missing, so I'm not particularly frustrated at my inability to use that stuff.

Cheers, -- N


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## Obryn (Oct 6, 2010)

So in the non-news department, WotC_Trevor posted this over on the Wizards boards...



> On to more pressing news (or to some, news that may not seem like news) - We are actually working on getting some more information for you, and I'm hopeful I can have some good news in the next couple of days. I'll pop back in as soon as I get something.




...which left me extremely disappointed.  It's zero new information.  It's "information" that they're maybe going to give us some information hopefully.  But it makes it look like we won't have an update next week, either.

I'm pretty far from demanding, and I understand that projects can get crazy and difficult.  It's the lack of communication and dialogue that's frustrating me.  I don't need a refund, and I can live without the DDI updates (though it would admittedly make my game prep tons easier), but some sort of idea of what's going on would be nice.  

-O


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 6, 2010)

put me in the m'eh column. no gnus is good gnus with gary gnu thing. i'm hopeful but based on how thing dungeon and dragon have been, and man, they is really thin if you take out all the 'preview' content, that I could've swore was supposed to be 'extra', and well, i'm sure there's a blues song out there somewhere for me.


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## fuzzlewump (Oct 6, 2010)

Dr_Ruminahui said:


> That's well and true, but I don't see what good complaining to US does, though... we are in no position to change anything.  Wouldn't it be better to bring the matter to the attention of WotC instead?
> 
> To me this thread just seems like some people are offended by what WotC has done and wanting others to be offended too.



You may be surprised how bare these message boards would be if every poster had to analyze what good it would be to post something. For instance, complaining about complaining? I respect your right to do that, as well as the right of the original complainer.

Go internet!


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## vagabundo (Oct 6, 2010)

Obryn said:


> What do you care?
> 
> Why not leave this to folks who have some actual stake in the matter, and stop trying to incite more drama?
> 
> -O




Because it is no fun protesting on your own.



Obryn said:


> So in the non-news department, WotC_Trevor posted this over on the Wizards boards...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It is an announcement of an announcement.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 6, 2010)

Obryn said:


> So in the non-news department, WotC_Trevor posted this over on the Wizards boards...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the update on a  possible update on the update about the  update. 

Mustrum "where does all this foam come from" Ridcully


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## Scribble (Oct 6, 2010)

Obryn said:


> I'm pretty far from demanding, and I understand that projects can get crazy and difficult.  It's the lack of communication and dialogue that's frustrating me.  I don't need a refund, and I can live without the DDI updates (though it would admittedly make my game prep tons easier), but some sort of idea of what's going on would be nice.




My guess is they cut the info department out when they realized they can't really deal in a calm rational manner and expect not to have every announcement or date (no matter how tentative) taken as a contract signed and sworn too.

I think they found it's better to have people frustrated in anticipation, because they forget their frustration once whatever it was they were anticipating is released, as opposed to giving out news which doesn't actually calm anyone, and instead equates to giving out more things for people to spin in a negative way.


(I'm seriously hoping we'll see not just the updates, but some new tools released when it's released... Now would be a great time to do so, with the big Essentials/New Player push...)


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## jelmore (Oct 6, 2010)

Obryn said:


> but some sort of idea of what's going on would be nice.




When you are surrounded by people who will pounce on every statement you make and tear it apart -- witness the comments about WotC_Trevor's "announcement of an announcement" -- maybe saying nothing at all is the best policy.

My opinion is that they will announce the CB update when they are sure it is ready to go, and not before.

*EDIT:* ...or they could do that instead.


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## P1NBACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Dr_Ruminahui said:


> That's well and true, but I don't see what good complaining to US does, though... we are in no position to change anything.  Wouldn't it be better to bring the matter to the attention of WotC instead?
> 
> To me this thread just seems like some people are offended by what WotC has done and wanting others to be offended too.




I don't think anyone is complaining to _you_. 

Let's get this straight: I think this thread in particular is a bit over-zealous. I said that on page 2. I think complaining that the October update isn't out on October 1st is kind of silly. 

However, I don't see anything wrong with people going to a public forum and expressing their concerns politely and respectfully and seeing if other people are like-minded and share their concerns. 

Let me turn the question back on you though. What good does complaining about the complainers do? 

Edit: Ninja'd.


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## Scribble (Oct 6, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Let me turn the question back on you though. What good does complaining about the complainers do?




Well in HIS defense, as you discovered/point out going to the source of your problem (WoTC) with your frustration in a civil manner can have an effect. 

His issue seems to be that he doesn't think complaining about the issue on a message board does anything but get people riled up. So instead of making a new thread bitching about people bitching, he went to the source and vocalized his concern.


I don't think discussing your frustration in a calm/rational manner is a bad thing, but I think it's just the nature of the interwebs that these things go from calm/rational to overzealous and filled with misinformation and paranoia really quickly, so they end up just being kind of pointless.


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## P1NBACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Scribble said:


> I don't think discussing your frustration in a calm/rational manner is a bad thing, but I think it's just the nature of the interwebs that these things go from calm/rational to overzealous and filled with misinformation and paranoia really quickly, so they end up just being kind of pointless.




Right. I think there's a vanishing point where 99% of interwebz threads do this.  

This thread just happened to start off closer to the vanishing point.


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## Shazman (Oct 6, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Fixed it for you Shazzy. I wonder the same thing about your last point




Apparently, they are not giving everyone a refund.  I have sent four e-mails to customer service requesting a refund.  I have gotten four automated responses but no refund.  Not even a followup e-mail asking for my account info to process the refund.  I even called customer service which directed me back to the website, where ,of course, you contact them by e-mail.  This is very poor, practically non-existant customer service.


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## renau1g (Oct 6, 2010)

Try to PM [MENTION=56746]mudbunny[/MENTION], I'm sure he'll help you make sure it gets through. Or go to the wotc message boards and Asmodeus Lore (I think is his handle) is also helping people. They also have the details on how to handle the request, apparently a lot of people were going about it in such a way as to delay their requests.


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## Scribble (Oct 6, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Apparently, they are not giving everyone a refund.  I have sent four e-mails to customer service requesting a refund.  I have gotten four automated responses but no refund.  Not even a followup e-mail asking for my account info to process the refund.  I even called customer service which directed me back to the website, where ,of course, you contact them by e-mail.  This is very poor, practically non-existant customer service.




Let me ask you out of curiosity?

What did you say in your email? 
What was the title?
How far apart were these emails sent?

Forgive me... but you don't seem to be the most patient person out there.


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## Theroc (Oct 6, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Apparently, they are not giving everyone a refund.  I have sent four e-mails to customer service requesting a refund.  I have gotten four automated responses but no refund.  Not even a followup e-mail asking for my account info to process the refund.  I even called customer service which directed me back to the website, where ,of course, you contact them by e-mail.  This is very poor, practically non-existant customer service.




That's... well... odd.  I got an automated message saying my request would possibly take a week to process, but I got my refund within 48 hours... maybe it's because I was already in prior contact with custserv about getting my CB working to begin with?


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## mudbunny (Oct 6, 2010)

Shazman said:


> Apparently, they are not giving everyone a refund.  I have sent four e-mails to customer service requesting a refund.  I have gotten four automated responses but no refund.  Not even a followup e-mail asking for my account info to process the refund.  I even called customer service which directed me back to the website, where ,of course, you contact them by e-mail.  This is very poor, practically non-existant customer service.




I have heard no indication that they are not giving out refunds anymore, but I will poke WotC again about this. If you don't mind, PM me your account name and, if you have them, the support ticket numbers from your requests.

Also, a couple of questions. (Not meant to be patronizing)

1 - When did you make your request?
2 - If it was recently, did you specify that you were looking for a refund for the september update?
3 - What settings in the drop-down menus did you use?? The proper one to use for minimum delay is Online Gaming > D&D Insider > D&D Insider Account. Other ones will add a couple of days onto the processing time.


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## Shazman (Oct 6, 2010)

I finally did get a response to my last e-mail basically saying they are working on it.  At least that's something.


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## CovertOps (Oct 6, 2010)

jelmore said:


> When you are surrounded by people who will pounce on every statement you make and tear it apart -- witness the comments about WotC_Trevor's "announcement of an announcement" -- maybe saying nothing at all is the best policy.
> 
> My opinion is that they will announce the CB update when they are sure it is ready to go, and not before.



Said by myself and several others.  If we get more than a day or two (business days so weekends don't count) I'll be shocked.



P1NBACK said:


> I don't think anyone is complaining to _you_.
> 
> Let's get this straight: I think this thread in particular is a bit over-zealous. I said that on page 2. I think complaining that the October update isn't out on October 1st is kind of silly.
> 
> ...




Complaining Whining has no purpose other than to serve as a malicious attempt to "get even".  "That so-and-so evil company screwed me out of something and I'm gonna screw them right back and try to take away as many of their customers as possible."  It's like bitching to your best friend about your wife or girlfriend...your best friend might commiserate with you or might frankly not even care, but nothing really happens AND the person who should know you're upset more than anyone else doesn't.

On the other hand...if you complained to said business and they tried to resolve your problem, but you weren't satisfied with the solution then you vote with your dollars and start telling all your friends how unreasonable said company was and why.  That said we don't have any of that kind of complaint.  What we do have is complaints about inconvenience and that's just bitching for the sake of bitching.


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## P1NBACK (Oct 6, 2010)

CovertOps said:


> It's like bitching to your best friend about your wife or girlfriend...your best friend might commiserate with you or might frankly not even care, but nothing really happens AND the person who should know you're upset more than anyone else doesn't.




Yeah. I don't see it like that at all. 

I'd say it's more like two people who are members of the same swimming pool bitching to each other about them not cleaning the pool as regularly as they used to. 

Yeah, we're still going to have to go through the formal channels by notifying the pool of our complaints (which, they are probably legally protected by our membership - "We don't _have _to clean our pools..."). However, we know that we aren't the only ones who are members of the pool who want the pool cleaned regularly. 

If the guy next to us overhears us talking, he can chime in and say, "Yeah. That's whack. I want the pool cleaned too!" or "Whatever... We can still swim!" 

The point is, we're a *community *subscribing to the same product. We're not subscribing to unique products (our wives?) and bitching individually about each product.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 6, 2010)

Update on the 12th Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible



> Hey all. We are currently in the process of *developing a new  web-based tools system* for D&D Insider which has factored into  recent content update delays. We will continue to provide D&D  Insider members with additional information as our progress develops. In  the meantime, we are back on schedule to provide members with our  regular content updates.



No DS or Essentials in the CB, but at least we find out that they are working on web based tools.


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## ourchair (Oct 7, 2010)

Prestidigitalis said:


> The problem with many of the comments above is the failure to understand that WotC is not the name of a person, but the name of a company.  Making a product like 4e is a cooperative effort, and there are many things that can go wrong as a result.
> 
> You can plan, you can schedule, you can direct, and you can order.
> 
> ...



Exactly.

It gets to me that people refer to WotC as a collective without taking into consideration to moving parts (people) that make up that collective. 

Now, I'm still upset that the Dark Sun and Essentials stuff won't be in the Builder update, and regardless of that is that the Builder update is already late to begin with, but it's not exactly difficult to see that the disjunct between promises and output isn't a matter of incompetence but a matter of one hand not knowing how to coordinate with the other.

If you consider all the things that need to be done to maintain a product line, produce a major motion picture, develop a video game, and all the people needed to do it, it's something of a minor miracle that these things get done at all. 

So when these things happen, it's because Marketing makes promises about the Software team incorporating material into tools on a monthly basis, and the Designers producing more material than the Software team can manage. It's not always about The Companies trying to screw us over because they are thoughtless, inconsiderate Money Grubbing Whores.


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## Obryn (Oct 7, 2010)

Ahh, 12th!  I can deal with that. 

Now that there's some real communication, I am a happy customer once again!

-O


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