# Converting Epic Level Beings



## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

This thread is a special version based on my idea of "cooperative conversions" started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on epic level creatures that have appeared in various D&D sources throughout the years.

Naturally, the scope of these monsters is bigger than most, and will require more work and research.  We have already compiled a number of conversion notes in this thread, and that is also the place to discuss the specifics of the process of converting monsters with over 20 HD.  The thread you are reading right now is only for working that process on actual conversions.

What I will do is first post the creature's original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it?s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

The following is a list of high-level individual creatures from various D&D sources that haven't yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog.  You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when.  If I'm missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.  I have left off this list anything that is essentially just a character with levels, including creatures that can just be created with templates such as liches.  This thread is for the special, unique ones!

Already in the Creature Catalog, we have:
Demon (Miska the Wolf-Spider)
Demon (Queen of Chaos)
Devil (Duke Alastor)
Devil (Duke Baalberith)
Devil (Duke Baalzephon)
Devil (Duke Caarcrinolaas)
Devil (Duke Focalor)
Devil (Duke Melchon)
Devil (Duke Zimmimar)
Devil (Princess of Hell- Baalphegor)
Devil (Princess of Hell- Glasya)
Devil: Selm (Prince of the Possessors)
Elemental (Quasi-Mineral- Crystalle)
Modron (Primus)
Slaad Lord (Chourst)
Slaad Lord (Rennbuu)


Besides that there are, for starters:

Yugoloth lords (Dragon Annual 1 or 2?)

And from the first edition Deities and Demigods, as well as the second edition Legends and Lore, there are a number of beings that are not quite gods but very powerful all the same.  These include:
Air Maidens (Finnish - Ukko's warriors)
Dahak (Babylonian three-headed dragon spirit of death)
Fenris Wolf (Norse)
Garm (Norse guardian of Hel-gate)
Spirits of the Air (Chinese - also appeared in Planescape campaign setting)

Legends and Lore additions:
Norse (Fafnir)

Age of Heroes - Scylla


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

our first victim for this thread will be the demon lord Kerzit.  He was a big baddie from the module Mordenkainen’s Fantastic Adventure.  He was the last creature from that module left to convert, so hey I figured why not start with him?  

(don’t worry, there’s plenty of time to get to other guys!)  


Kerzit the Guardian 
(Major Demon)
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 15 (112 hit points)
% IN LAIR. 65%
TREASURE TYPE: Special
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4+1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/2-12/2-12 + 2-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poisonous bite
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Immunities (see below)
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
SIZE: L (10 ft. tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: X/13,800 + 20/hp (16,040)

Kerzit is a special guardian,  especially created by higher demons to serve the cause of chaos on the Prime Material Plane. It is thus most often encountered there, guarding some item or area of import.
Kerzit is currently the guardian demon of the Tome of the Black Heart, summoned forth from that volume by Tomorast, as a necessary prelude for the use of powers and other arcane knowledge contained within that leather-bound manual of black lore and demon-begotten magic. Kerzit maintains a watchful vigil over this tome, and, in return for this service, accepts sacrifices from Tomorast.
Kerzit may attack up to 5 times per round. Its tentacles (ld10 each) and saw-like arms (ld12 each) account for the majority of its melee capability. If both tentacles strike the same victim in a single round, the victim is dragged to Kerzit’s waiting jaws for an additional bite (normal “to hit” roll) of 2-24 points plus deadly poison (-3 penalty to saving throw).
Kerzit is immune to all 1st-3rd level magic-user and illusionist spells, 1st and 2nd level druid spells, and 1st level cleric spells. At will, it may create darkness 10’ radius, use detect magic, read magic, detect invisibility, and telekinesis (maximum 7,000 gp weight) spells once per round. It can gate (70% successfully) a Type II (400/0) or Type III (60%) demon, though it may only gate two demons of one type per day, as its abilities while on the Prime Material Plane are somewhat limited.

Description
Kerzit stands 10 ft. tall and 4 ft. wide at the shoulders. Its overly large wolfs head sports two menacing, silver eyes, and its jaws open wide to reveal ebon black teeth that drip a greyish fluid. The entire body is covered with matted black fur, and its upper appendages resemble 6 ft. long octopus tentacles, located upon its torso where a human’s arms might be. Its lower torso has a pair of saw-like appendages, chitinous to a degree, but the black fur common to all parts of this demon’s body (except the tentacles) is present here also. Kerzit’s feet resemble 2 ft. long wolfs paws, with polished black six-inch long talons. These talons emit an audible clicking sound when the demon walks on a hard surface, which may give a warning of this horrific monster’s approach to those who might be listening, negating surprise by the creature.




Nowadays, Type II demons are called Hezrou, and Type III are called Glabrezu.

One of the first things we need to decide on is the HD.  15 is simply not good enough – even a modern balor could beat him up then.  Gotta be over 20 nowadays.  I could see him maybe being on par with glasya, but probably a bit more powerful than that.  He is a major demon after all, but not a prince of any sort.  I mean, he’s a demon lord sent to guard things (implying that he has a boss) and he’d be really hard to beat for the average adventurer, but he sure ain’t no Orcus.  


here are some preliminary stats for Kerzit:

*Kerzit the Guardian*
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: Xd8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: X (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: 2 tentacles + X melee (1d10+X) and 2 arms +X melee (1d12+X) and bite +X melee (2d12+X and poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft
Special Attacks: Improved grab, poison, spell-like abilities, summon tanar’ri
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15?/epic and good (?), darkvision 60 ft, (fast healing?), immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, spell immunities (immune to arcane spells of 3rd level or less, immune to druid spells of 2nd level or less, immune to divine spells of 1st level or less), telepathy 100 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 14+ (heh) Wis X Chr X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: Solitary or 
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None (guardian)
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---


COMBAT


Originally found in module WG5 - Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure (1984, Robert J. Kuntz and Gary Gygax).


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## Clifford (Nov 21, 2003)

*kerzit the guardian*

Here is my humble opinion on kerzit.

how about 24 or so hit dice that seems good without going overboard I agree that he wouldent be as tough as a prince but he should definatly be tougher than glassya.

Also i think you should just make him immune to all 3rd level or less spells as not to make him too convoluted with multiple imunities. I think a good comparison would be a minor globe of invaunerability which can give you immunity to all 3rd level or less spells not just the one type or another to varrying degrees.

Also what about revamping the adamant dragon to make it more epic, I know its not qthe unique creature you are loking for in this thread but i thing it needs an epic representation.

Cliff


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

thanks for the input cliff.  

as for the adamantine dragon, i'l pass that along to krishnath along with the rest of the dragons.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

I'll start with what we usually do last--the description.    

_Standing 10 feet tall, this broad-shouldered creature's entire body is covered with matted black fur.  It bears an overly large wolflike head with two menacing, silver eyes, large jaws filled with ebon black teeth dripping a greyish fluid, two octopus-like tentacles instead of arms, and a pair of chitinous, saw-like appendages from its lower torso.  It’s legs end in two-foot long wolfs paws, with polished black six-inch long talons, which click as it walks._


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

you might have noticed that i just (re)wrote some of the descriptions on recent monsters myself.    i don't think i'll wait till the end anymore, unless i just can't come up with something on my own.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

I had noticed that.  Do you want me to stop doing descriptions?

For DR, we have a couple of options.   We could go epic and good, or we could go cold iron and good.   The klurichir, which is a CR 26 non-unique demon from the Fiend Folio, has DR 15/cold iron and good (according to the 3.5 conversion guide).

If you go with 24 HD, it would be entitled to seven nonepic and two epic feats.

Its base saves would all be +14 (+12 for 20 HD outsider, +2 epic for remaining 4 HD).


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> I had noticed that.  Do you want me to stop doing descriptions?




no...  i was just doing that for the sake of convenience.  



> For DR, we have a couple of options.   We could go epic and good, or we could go cold iron and good.   The klurichir, which is a CR 26 non-unique demon from the Fiend Folio, has DR 15/cold iron and good (according to the 3.5 conversion guide).




too bad the 3.5 revision guide didn't touch on the BoVD.    i don't think epic is necessary for a lower demon lord like this, but i wouldn't say it doesn't fit either.



> If you go with 24 HD, it would be entitled to seven nonepic and two epic feats.




i think we should list the epic ones separately, like the ELH does.



> Its base saves would all be +14 (+12 for 20 HD outsider, +2 epic for remaining 4 HD).




first thing's first, is 24 HD the number we're going with or is there any disagreement?    on reflection, i noticed that under 1E he had 112 hp, which oddly enough gave him more hp than juiblex, yeenoghu, baphomet, and kostchtchie!  but the weird thing is that he is listed with HD instead of straight up HP (unheard of in 1E demon lords).  if we used that as a basis, we'd put his HD in the low 30's, but i'm not so sure we should go that high.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> no...  i was just doing that for the sake of convenience.




 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> too bad the 3.5 revision guide didn't touch on the BoVD.    i don't think epic is necessary for a lower demon lord like this, but i wouldn't say it doesn't fit either.




No kidding.  And with the BOED fully 3.5, it makes even less sense to have left out the BOVD.   

Ironically, the cold iron and good DR would actually be superior to epic and good in most cases, as +6 weapons are feasible over CR 20, and align weapon takes care of the alignment aspect, but nothing duplicates cold iron.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i think we should list the epic ones separately, like the ELH does.




I agree.  We just need to keep in mind that it can select a nonepic feat in place of an epic feat, if so desired.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> first thing's first, is 24 HD the number we're going with or is there any disagreement?    on reflection, i noticed that under 1E he had 112 hp, which oddly enough gave him more hp than juiblex, yeenoghu, baphomet, and kostchtchie!  but the weird thing is that he is listed with HD instead of straight up HP (unheard of in 1E demon lords).  if we used that as a basis, we'd put his HD in the low 30's, but i'm not so sure we should go that high.




I don't think we should go that high.   He isn't a prince or lord.  He could still have more hit points than those guys with a high enough CON score and a couple of Epic Toughness feats, if so desired.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Ironically, the cold iron and good DR would actually be superior to epic and good in most cases, as +6 weapons are feasible over CR 20, and align weapon takes care of the alignment aspect, but nothing duplicates cold iron.




well, cold iron it is then.  



> I agree. We just need to keep in mind that it can select a nonepic feat in place of an epic feat, if so desired.




we'll probably want to list it as "Epic feat suggestion(s):"


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we'll probably want to list it as "Epic feat suggestion(s):"




I like the way they handled something similar in a recent issue of Dragon.  They had a demon that used spells and feats from the BOVD.   After each one from the BOVD, they put an alternate core rules feat or spell in brackets, and noted that the items in brackets were for those not using the BOVD.

Of course, the Fiend Folio method was nice too, which simply added a sidebar stating, "If you are using the Epic Level Handbook..." and made suggestions for swapping out feats.


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## Krishnath (Nov 21, 2003)

24HD sounds good to me, the base saves should be Fort +14, Ref +14, and Will +14, but not for the reasons stated above. As the demonlords HD are all racial it's saves are equal to it's HD/2+2, or 12+2=14, epic save and BAB progressions only count when classes are involved. It's a common mistake. 

Anyways, on to the abilities:

Poison: Initial and Secondary damage 2d6 con?


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## BOZ (Nov 23, 2003)

yeah, that sounds good.  the only damage listed for the poison is "deadly", so it must have been an instant kill on a failed save.  3E poisons are much more merciful, but the damage you listed could still be pretty fatal.  

other random thoughts...  

in addition to suggesting ELH feats, we can also suggest a few BoVD feats.

also from BoVD...

all demon lords have SR of CR + (10-14)

demogorgon has fast healing 10, graz'zt and yeenoghu have 5.

demogorgon, graz'zt, orcus, and yeenoghu have see invisibility.

most appear to have an insight bonus to AC that is based on Wis bonus, but Juiblex's is higher and Yeenoghu's is actually lower.  orcus also has a Cha-based Deflection bonus to AC.

i finally got the BoED (yay!) and it appears to be a whole lot more consistent.  all of the paragons have an insight bonus and a deflection bonus.  all except for the eladrin king and queen have the insight based on Wis and the deflection based on Cha.  perahps the lesson here is that if you're chaotic you don't have to follow the rules?    i'd say we should use our best judgement on this topic.

also, in BoED all paragons have their race as a subtype, so we should also reflect this in new conversions.


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## Grazzt (Nov 23, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Its base saves would all be +14 (+12 for 20 HD outsider, +2 epic for remaining 4 HD).





Like Krish- said above, epic level progressions (for saves, BAB, etc.) only count when class levels are involved. A 24 HD monster (outsider in this case) has a BAB of 24 and base saves of Fort +14, Ref +14, Will +14.


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## Krishnath (Nov 23, 2003)

Hi Grazzt!

Boz: Then the 'guardian demon' (that's an oxymoron if I ever saw one), would have the Tanar'ri subtype?


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2003)

if you mean the one we're working on, then yes i would suppose so.    it does seem to be associated with the other tanar'ri, at least loosely.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> in addition to suggesting ELH feats, we can also suggest a few BoVD feats.
> 
> also from BoVD...
> 
> all demon lords have SR of CR + (10-14)




I guess we'll have to determine its CR first.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> demogorgon has fast healing 10, graz'zt and yeenoghu have 5.




Since this guy is only a "lowly" guardian, I'd give him none.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> demogorgon, graz'zt, orcus, and yeenoghu have see invisibility.




Since this is a guardian, he'd definitely benefit from this ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> most appear to have an insight bonus to AC that is based on Wis bonus, but Juiblex's is higher and Yeenoghu's is actually lower.  orcus also has a Cha-based Deflection bonus to AC.




He'd probably be fine with natural armor only.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i finally got the BoED (yay!) and it appears to be a whole lot more consistent.  all of the paragons have an insight bonus and a deflection bonus.  all except for the eladrin king and queen have the insight based on Wis and the deflection based on Cha.  perahps the lesson here is that if you're chaotic you don't have to follow the rules?    i'd say we should use our best judgement on this topic.




I'm glad you got it.  It appears to be one of the most consistent books they've released (except for changing the archon resistances, but I maintain that the Monster Manual 3.5 is wrong, not the BOED).  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> also, in BoED all paragons have their race as a subtype, so we should also reflect this in new conversions.




Agreed.   And I second the motion to give this guy the tanar'ri subtype.


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> I guess we'll have to determine its CR first.




not necessarily.    we can just give him SR at an undetermined value until we set a CR.  



> He'd probably be fine with natural armor only.




you sure 'bout that?


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## Krishnath (Nov 25, 2003)

I suggest giving it either a deflection bonus equal to his cha bonus -or- an insight bonus equal to his wis bonus, but not both, in addition to any natural armor we give him. This would increase the demons touch AC a little without making it unbalanced.(and if to high AC is a problem, just reduce it's natural armor accordingly.)


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2003)

The reason I don't believe he should have a deflection or insight bonus to AC is simple:  he is not a demon lord or prince.

In BOVD, Demogorgon's CR 27 Marilith blackguards do not have any AC bonus other than natural and Dex.  Nor does Glasya, whom we were using as a benchmark for this guy's power.

It would definitely beef the guy up, but I think we should reserve the insight/deflection bonuses for the true rulers of the Lower Planes.


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## Krishnath (Nov 25, 2003)

Ah, yes, but it is clearly a unique demon, and from it's appearance it looks a lot like it is a minion of Demogorgon himself.


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2003)

i support giving him an either/or.


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## Leopold (Nov 25, 2003)

so profane bonus is out then?


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## BOZ (Nov 25, 2003)

i think it needs _something_ for AC.

hey fellas, before we get too bogged down in these details, why not get the important stuff out of the way so that the details come easier?

anyone got suggestions for ability scores?    you know, good ol Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha?


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## Leopold (Nov 26, 2003)

Str 24
Dex 11
Con 20
Int 14
Wis 12
Cha 8


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## Krishnath (Nov 26, 2003)

Leo: you rolled for that didn't you.

Str 28, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 17

We wan't the creature to have presence and give players a run for their money.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2003)

do you think we should keep his mind that weak?  i'm sure he could use a bump up.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2003)

Here's a preliminary attempt at the spell-like abilities:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—deeper darkness, detect magic, see invisibility, telekinesis (DC X), and read magic. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based. 

Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Twice per day Kerzit can attempt to summon 2 hezrous or 2 glabrezous with a 70% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

-or-

Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Four times per day Kerzit can attempt to summon 1 hezrou or 1 glabrezou with a 70% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.  Kerzit may only summon two of each type of demon per day.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2003)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Leo: you rolled for that didn't you.
> 
> Str 28, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 17
> 
> We wan't the creature to have presence and give players a run for their money.




that's a good start, how does everyone else feel about this?  

i'm adding greater teleport to that spell-like abilities list, and i may (or not) add some others.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2003)

For comparison:

Hezrou (CR 11):  Str 21, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
Glabrezu (CR 13):  Str 31, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 20
Balor (CR 20):  Str 35, Dex 25, Con 31, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 26
Klurichir (CR 26):  Str 29, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 20, Wis 16, Cha 23

Our current stats put this guy significantly weaker than a glabrezu.  I think we need to beef 'em up, particularly Con and Cha.

Good suggestion on adding greater teleport.   This guy has very limited spell-like abilities.  Perhaps we should give him a few more to tie into his role as guardian?


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## Krishnath (Nov 26, 2003)

What about adding _Animate Dead_ and _Waves of Fatigue_ to it's spell-like abilities.

Also, for DR, how about 10/epic and lawful and good?


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2003)

I just realized, despite BOZ's earlier reminder, that I had my Type II, III, and so on demons mixed up.  I blame the Type O demon.    

I edited the spell-like abilities above to correctly reflect hezrou and glabrezu instead of vrock and glabrezu.


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2003)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> What about adding _Animate Dead_ and _Waves of Fatigue_ to it's spell-like abilities.
> 
> Also, for DR, how about 10/epic and lawful and good?




I like the spell-like abilities you suggested.

For DR, I vote for 15/cold iron and good.

BTW, I heard your sig file during my lunch break.  In fact, when I flipped on the radio, it was at exactly the point that your sig file begins.   Weird, eh?


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2003)

A few other random thoughts before I depart…

I’m increasing his reach to 15 feet, due to the tentacles.



> Kerzit may attack up to 5 times per round. Its tentacles (ld10 each) and saw-like arms (ld12 each) account for the majority of its melee capability. If both tentacles strike the same victim in a single round, the victim is dragged to Kerzit’s waiting jaws for an additional bite (normal “to hit” roll) of 2-24 points plus deadly poison (-3 penalty to saving throw).




Not sure how his attack routine should work for full attack.  Should it be 2 tentacles and 2 arms; or 1 bite – or should he be able to do all 5 normally in one round?  Or should the bite only come into play if an opponent is grappled?


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## Leopold (Nov 27, 2003)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Leo: you rolled for that didn't you.
> 
> Str 28, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 17
> 
> We wan't the creature to have presence and give players a run for their money.




i just threw those numbers out there. I figured since this guy was buttugly to give him a low CHA.

Str 30, Dex 15, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 15


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## Leopold (Nov 27, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> A few other random thoughts before I depart…
> 
> I’m increasing his reach to 15 feet, due to the tentacles.
> 
> ...





I say give his tentacles 15' reach and the rest 10' reach.

attack pattern would be 2 tentacles or 2 arms and bite?


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## Krishnath (Nov 27, 2003)

Shade: Not really, I'm just that good 

Leo: Ha, ha, very funny, I still say it should have Cha 17, it may be ugly, but it has presence, and Cha is more a measurement of ones presence, than actuall physical beauty.


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## Clifford (Nov 28, 2003)

i thinl somewhere arround the attributes of a baylor (Maybe a little tougher, he is unique) sounds good. Maybe a slightly crappier charisma,

Something like
    Str 39, Dex 20, Con 35, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 22

makes his a pretty good guard but not as bright as a demon prince thus easier for such a creature to controll.

cliff


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## Krishnath (Nov 28, 2003)

That's a pretty good suggestion Clifford.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2003)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Str 28, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 15, Wis 14, Cha 17
> 
> We wan't the creature to have presence and give players a run for their money.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For comparison:
> 
> Hezrou (CR 11):  Str 21, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 18
> Glabrezu (CR 13):  Str 31, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 20
> ...






			
				Leopold said:
			
		

> I figured since this guy was buttugly to give him a low CHA.
> 
> Str 30, Dex 15, Con 24, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 15






			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> i thinl somewhere arround the attributes of a baylor (Maybe a little tougher, he is unique) sounds good. Maybe a slightly crappier charisma,
> 
> Something like
> Str 39, Dex 20, Con 35, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 22
> ...




that last set seems to be the closest to what we probably want to see.  it puts him more physically powerful than a balor, but less mentally acute.  still, his greater HD and generally better abilities should make him able to take on one balor, but maybe not two.


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## Krishnath (Nov 30, 2003)

Then use the last set.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

I agree with the last set as well.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

so now, his stats look more like this:

*Demon, Kerzit the Guardian*
Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar’ri)
Hit Dice: 24d8+288 (396 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: X (-1 size, +5 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+42
Attack: 
Full Attack: 2 tentacles + 32 melee (1d10+14) and 2 arms +27 melee (1d12+7) and bite +27 melee (2d12+7 and poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft (15 ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, poison, spell-like abilities, summon tanar’ri
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/cold iron and good, darkvision 60 ft, (fast healing?), immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10, see invisibility, (spell immunities), spell resistance X, telepathy 100 ft
Saves: Fort +26 Ref +28 Will +21
Abilities: Str 39, Dex 20, Con 35, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 22
Skills: X (not Move Silently)
Feats: 7 + 2 epic


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

Some Suggested Feats:   Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech (BOVD), Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Multiattack, Vile Natural Attack (BOVD)

Suggested Epic Feats:  Dire Charge, Epic Tougness or Overwhelming Critical (bite)


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

i think the BoVD feats should be listed seperately, like the ELH feats.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i think the BoVD feats should be listed seperately, like the ELH feats.




Sounds good.  What do you think of listing alternative core feats in brackets following the epic/vile feats?   For example, Vile Natural Attack [Improved Sunder].


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

The other way around, I’d say.    then we could put a little note afterwards such as [feats in brackets are alternates from the Book of Vile Darkness]

Ok, more stuff…

As for his bite attack, I’m thinking that it can only be used while grappling a creature, or instead of his normal attacks.  His full attack routine should be “2 tentacles … and 2 arms … or bite”.

His Improved Grab line should read as follows:
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Kerzit must hit with both tentacles.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage.

How would we write up his smell immunity?  Just “Kerzit is immune to all spells of 3rd level and lower”?  such as minor globe of invulnerability, like Clifford suggested.

What, therefore, should his SR be?  It need not be particularly high, since he does have that nice little immunity.

I noticed that we have a listing for see invisibility in the special qualities, and he also has that as a spell-like.  should I keep it as a spell-like, or copy the see invisibility (Su) power of demons?

And… posting Kerzit in homebrews, so check him out.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The other way around, I’d say.    then we could put a little note afterwards such as [feats in brackets are alternates from the Book of Vile Darkness]




Fair enough.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As for his bite attack, I’m thinking that it can only be used while grappling a creature, or instead of his normal attacks.  His full attack routine should be “2 tentacles … and 2 arms … or bite”.




I like that idea.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> His Improved Grab line should read as follows:
> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Kerzit must hit with both tentacles.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage.




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> How would we write up his smell immunity?  Just “Kerzit is immune to all spells of 3rd level and lower”?  such as minor globe of invulnerability, like Clifford suggested.




Smell immunity?   Just take away his scent.    

I'm on board with Clifford's suggestion.  The dread linnorm is immune to all spells from the Enchantment school, and it is noted in the Immunities entry.  So, I'd use the following for Kerzit.

Immunities (Ex): Kerzit is immune to all spells of 3rd level and lower.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> What, therefore, should his SR be?  It need not be particularly high, since he does have that nice little immunity.




It looks like most demons have SR equal to 8 + CR.  So I'd wait until we determine his CR.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I noticed that we have a listing for see invisibility in the special qualities, and he also has that as a spell-like.  should I keep it as a spell-like, or copy the see invisibility (Su) power of demons?




I'd keep it as spell-like.  I just checked all the demons in the MM3.5, and those that have see invisibility have them as spell-like abilities, whereas those with true seeing have it as a separate entry.[/QUOTE]



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And… posting Kerzit in homebrews, so check him out.




Looking good so far.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

CR... 22?

natural armor... 22+?

for his Attack line, perhaps tentacle as main attack?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

went back and looked and saw that while demogorgon, graz'zt, orcus, and yeenoghu have see invisibility as a constant supernatural ability, juiblex does have true seeing as a spell-like ability.  so i guess we can keep kerzit with just a spell-like version of see invisibility.


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## Krishnath (Dec 2, 2003)

SR equal to CR+8?


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

yeah, but:



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> from BoVD...
> 
> all demon lords have SR of CR + (10-14)




some more issues for kerzit, then i will shut up for awhile.  

what, if anything, should his fast healing ability be?

should we bump up his resistances?  the demon lords in BovD have 20 instead of 10.

and for skills, he would appear to have 351 ranks.  i'd say for skills, he should have at least the following:  Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Diplomacy, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot


----------



## Krishnath (Dec 2, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, but:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes, but he isn't a lord, he is a servant of one (most likely Demogorgon) So, CR+8 should be sufficient for SR, as for fast healing, how about fast healing 10? As for the resistances, I suggest 15.

And regarding the skills, you're on your own.


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## Leopold (Dec 2, 2003)

ok i disagree with his tentacle having to hit with both for improved grab. Some monsters that have tentacles, like kraken, only have to hit with one before they can grapple. this guy is big so he should be able to do it with one tentacle.

now with 2 hands no, 2 tentacles yes.

oh and combat reflexes for sure with this guy!!


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

I'm with Krishnath 100% on the the SR.  This guy is not a prince or lord, so doesn't necessarily deserve all of their abilities.

On that same note, why does he need fast healing at all?  

As for resistances, I'd go with 10, 15 tops.  Keep in mind that the BOVD is 3E, where all demons had resistance 20.

For CR, 22 seems reasonable.  He isn't much tougher than a balor, and lacks the vorpal sword and cool spell-like abilities.

Natural armor of 22 seems right in line with other demons near that CR.

Tentacle for primary attack...yes.

I agree with all the skills BOZ mentioned, plus would also add Spellcraft and Survival (useful for tracking down those who take what he guards).  Speaking of which, should we give this guy Track, or maybe locate object as a spell-like ability?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

Ok, keeping the resistances as-is in that case.  The BoED paragons have resistances of 10 anyway.

CR 22, therefore SR 30.

Natural armor 22, and would a deflection bonus of +6 or an insight bonus of +7 be so wrong?

Fast healing – gone.

Skills – already had Spellcraft.    Survival added – will therefore get a synergy bonus from Search for tracking.  

Improved grab – single tentacle hit.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

It appears that all tanar'ri have resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10 in 3.5.

In 3E, all tanar'ri had resistance to acid 20, cold 20, and fire 20, even the demon lords.

Thus, it would seem that all tanar'ri (even demon lords), should have resistance to acid 10, cold 10, and fire 10 in 3.5.

To further support this, the celestial paragons have resistances 10.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

look up.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

D'oh!  I had this window open too long while I did research and missed your post.    

I've changed my stance on the insight/deflection/etc. bonus to AC.  During my research, I found the myrmyxicus demon has +5 profane bonus to AC.  So I'd vote profane or insight (reflecting its guardian foresight or something).


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

+6 insight it is, then.


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## Clifford (Dec 2, 2003)

______
*Snip*
Fast healing – gone.
*Snip*
______

Hmm i dont think this guy is turning out to be verry epic i mean as some people have stated he lack the spell like abilities of a baylor so i think wh should throw him a bone of some fast heal which i believe that a baylor has maybe Fast heal 5
as it is he is Not looking verry tough. besids the better stats a baylor could probably still take it out, thus poor demogorgon will loose his gold studded nipple clamp collection to a wily Baylor in service of Grazzt turning the course of that conflict away from demogogorgon whom will promptly give up his moral shattered due to the loss of his Collection.

Cliff


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

LOL  

balors don't have fast healing, but i'd be willing to consider giving it to kerzit.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

Clifford said:
			
		

> ______
> *Snip*
> Fast healing – gone.
> *Snip*
> ...




It is tough to compare power levels in a one-on-one fight at epic levels.  A fully advanced balor (60 HD, CR 40) could probably take out Demogorgon in a one-on-one fight.   However, politics and alliances come into play.

I wouldn't want to be the balor who stole from Demogorgon.    

Fast healing wouldn't hurt anything, but doesn't really seem necessary either.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2003)

i'll leave fast healing open to debate for the moment.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2003)

Edited due to being incorrect.


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## Clifford (Dec 3, 2003)

All i am saying is he is a unique demon and that he should have a fast heal like most of the lords Maybe not that high but definatly some.

____
*Snip*
It is tough to compare power levels in a one-on-one fight at epic levels. A fully advanced balor (60 HD, CR 40) could probably take out Demogorgon in a one-on-one fight. However, politics and alliances come into play.
*Snip*
____

Ok but i am not talking about a fully advanced baylor i am talking about a standard Wussy (?) Baylor. ALl i am saying is any couple ok demons could easily take this guy out i doubt this guy will be mixed up in any political power structures he is there to guard and suck up hits in the defence of the aformentioned cherrished nipple clamps, not to shroud The abyss in intrigue thus i think some fast heal would be apropriate like maybe 1 to 5 or something.

Cliff


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## BOZ (Dec 3, 2003)

Skills: (351 pts) Bluff +30, Climb +32, Concentration +32, Diplomacy +28, Hide +25, Intimidate +31, Jump +32, Knowledge (arcana) +31, Knowledge (history) +25, Knowledge (the planes) +27, Listen +31, Search +25, Sense Motive +27, Spellcraft +25 (+27 scrolls), Spot +31, Survival +27 (+29 on other planes, +29 following tracks), Use Magic Device +26 (+28 scrolls)


For feats, I will use Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (tentacles), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Multiattack, Track (B) [Suggested feats from the Book of Vile Darkness: Dark Speech, Vile Natural Attack]

I’d keep the epic feats as shade suggested  - Dire Charge, Epic Toughness or Overwhelming Critical (bite) – except that I’m not sure we’ll need the overwhelming critical on the bite.  We’ve established that Kerzit hits automatically on a grapple check, and it’s not likely that he’ll forego his other attacks just to make a melee bite attack.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 3, 2003)

there's no such thing as a wussy balor.    heheh

that said, yes a balor might have a good shot at taking out Kerzit (although he has about 100 hit points over what a balor has).  but look at the CR - only 2 points higher!  

but consider this.  it's not his purpose to take out balors!  his purpose is to guard a specific item or area.  now sure, a balor might come looking for him then, but Kerzit is not defenseless.  he can summon other demons who will at least distract the balor, plus he has a higher SR and generally better defenses.  and let's say that's not enough - all he has to do is put in a call with the demon lord he is serving faithfully, and said lord will come deal with the balor personally.  

that said, fast healing 5 couldn't hurt.  he probably wouldn't need it against the likes of adventurers, but it might be just the edge he'd need against mr. angry balor JUST in case.


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: (351 pts) Bluff +30, Climb +32, Concentration +32, Diplomacy +28, Hide +25, Intimidate +31, Jump +32, Knowledge (arcana) +31, Knowledge (history) +25, Knowledge (the planes) +27, Listen +31, Search +25, Sense Motive +27, Spellcraft +25 (+27 scrolls), Spot +31, Survival +27 (+29 on other planes, +29 following tracks), Use Magic Device +26 (+28 scrolls)




Well done!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For feats, I will use Alertness, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (tentacles), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Multiattack, Track (B) [Suggested feats from the Book of Vile Darkness: Dark Speech, Vile Natural Attack]




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’d keep the epic feats as shade suggested  - Dire Charge, Epic Toughness or Overwhelming Critical (bite) – except that I’m not sure we’ll need the overwhelming critical on the bite.  We’ve established that Kerzit hits automatically on a grapple check, and it’s not likely that he’ll forego his other attacks just to make a melee bite attack.




Oops.  That should have been Overwhelming Critical (tentacles) , seeing as Improved Critical in the same weapon is a prerequisite.   Speaking of prereqs, Overwhelming Critical also requires Great Cleave and Weapon Focus in the same weapon, so it looks like we'll need to ditch that idea.


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## BOZ (Dec 3, 2003)

well, he only had 2 epic feats anyway, right?  


OK, updating kerzit.  please check out my numbers and make sure i got everything right.

i think we're just about done with him?  maybe all we need to do is decide on the fast healing issue, cuz i can't think of anything else.


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## Krishnath (Dec 3, 2003)

Re: Fast Healing. I am supportive of Fast Healing 5.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2003)

Change Organization from "Solitary or" to either "Solitary" or something like "Solitary or ward (Kerzit plus 1 hezrou or 1 glabrezu)".

Weight 950 pounds?

Poison DC 34 is correct.  

Spell-like DCs:  telekinesis (DC 21) and waves of fatigue (DC 21).

I'm fine with fast healing 5.

Otherwise, he's ready to go as far as I can tell.


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## BOZ (Dec 3, 2003)

cool, updating in homebrews.  

so... who/what would you all like to work on next?


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2003)

I'd like to see Pasha of the Efreet (Vizier of the Fire Sultan) from the Modules thread.  

But honestly, anything on the list is welcome (my campaign is about to go epic, so I can use the variety).


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## Krishnath (Dec 3, 2003)

Cthulhu? (That's a joke)

Kronos or any other of the elder titans. (This is serious)


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## BOZ (Dec 3, 2003)

well, some were rated as gods in 2E, but i can have a look and we can pick out 2 or 3 (or more, depending on popularity) and have a go at them.


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## Leopold (Dec 4, 2003)

really want this one:

Devil (Duke Caarcrinolaas)


thre's a thread in the main general forum where Psion had an artifact that would allow him to be reborn and I would love to use that and have this guy as well


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

I liked the idea of working with the greater titans.    at the bottom of this post should be a document that contains all of them (please forgive any errors in the text or stats, I didn’t have enough time to fully proofread the scan.  The first section is taken from the 1E Deities and Demigods (D&DG hereafter), and the second section is taken from the 2E Legends and Lore (L&L).  We have a number of options on working with these beings.  We can take them as a race as a whole as seen in L&L, then give them class levels and individual powers, or we can simply create each one as an individual.

Remember guys, these are _greater_ titans, so as powerful as the MM titans are, these guys are still their big brothers!  I mean geez, look at the hit points!  If a 1st-edition monster has more hit points than a 3.5e monster, that’s pretty freakin significant!    I’d say they should have a significant amount of power – perhaps even rivaling the archfiends.  Some of them (Kronus, Rhea, and Prometheus in particular) might be rated out too high, and might be better off as gods.  But the lesser of them are really just high-level beings that may take worshippers in the same manner as archfiends.  And as far as the L&L calling all of them gods… well, don’t forget that Demogorgon, Yeenoghu and others were also rated as gods in 2E and are now back to being “lowly” archfiends in 3E!  I’d say the consensus rules on this issue.

As far as what each individual titan should have…  all should have  DR 15 (at least), all should have a pretty high SR, and all should have spell-like abilities similar to the ones in the MM.  They may very well vary in alignment, HD (over 20), ability scores, special attacks and qualities, and possibly other things as well.  It also looks like most of them will have a various number of class levels, and we’ll need to figure out how many they actually need, or if we just want to give them the class abilities instead.

One other thing before we get to figuring out what we’re doing.  I do remember some of the later Planescape books discussing these greater titans.  I think it was Planes of Conflict featuring the titans’ prison on Tarterus, but I could be wrong.  It would be great to find this reference to give us some nice insight and background info on the greater titans.

OK, discuss!


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

sorry leo, been gearing up for titans all evening.  

but i promise, devil lords are the next proirity.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

We also need to take into account the Elder Titan from the Epic-Level Handbook.

Selected stats:
70 HD
1,015 hp
Speed: 150 ft.
AC: 58 (includes +24 insight bonus)
Damage reduction 20/epic, spell resistance 40
Challenge Rating: 25
Advancement: 71-140 HD (Colossal)
Spell-Like Abilities: At will--alter self, analyze dweomer, commune with nature, cure critical wounds, eyebite, freedom of movement, fly, fog cloud, produce flame, protection from elements, read magic, remove curse, sanctuary, sending, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, speak with plants, summon monster VI, teleport without error, wind wall; 3/day--antilife shell, astral projection, contact other plane, greater dispelling, greater scrying, invisibility purge, plane shift. Caster level 29th; save DC 18 + spell level.

So perhaps we can modify these basics instead of the nonepic titans.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

d'oh!  i didn't even think about those guys... haven't read the ELH very often.  

maybe the greater titans are between the regular and elder titans?  or maybe they are the elder titans?  let me go read...


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

BTW, the stats I posted included the changes from the 3.5 Conversion Guide (in case your results vary while reading).


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

some differences, but not that much.  well, after having a look at the elder titan in the ELH, i've concluded that they are way more powerful than what i'm thinking of.  i was considering HD's in the 30's-60's range for our greater titans.  so i'm going to consider these elder titans the "granddaddies" of these beings, who are so remote now that they don't even interact with the world around them.

check that out - 70HD but they had the CR at only 30, and the audacity to lower it to 25?  i dunno, but i think one of those guys could whup a demon lord pretty easily.

so, let's use the elder titan and normal titan as examples, and put our guys somewhere in between.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

Yeah, those guys could beat the snot out of most creatures.

I like your idea of somewhere in the middle between the titans and elder titans.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

Having reviewed the conversion guide, I realize I made a mistake.  It is still CR 30.  I'm not sure where I got 25 from.

Some thoughts:

The MM titan is Huge.  The guys in the doc file are 100 feet tall.   Should we first advance the standard titan to Colossal to get its baseline stats?

The MM titan has spell resistance of CR + 11.  The elder has CR + 10.  I'd vote we stick with CR + 11.

The MM titan has damage reduction 15/lawful .  The elder has  20/epic.  Should we meet halfway with 15/epic and lawful?  What about Prometheus, who is neutral good?   Maybe 15/epic and evil?

The elder titan has a +24 insight bonus to AC.  The MM titan has none.  Maybe we can give our guys +12?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Having reviewed the conversion guide, I realize I made a mistake.  It is still CR 30.  I'm not sure where I got 25 from.




quite allright.  



> Some thoughts:
> 
> The MM titan is Huge.  The guys in the doc file are 100 feet tall.   Should we first advance the standard titan to Colossal to get its baseline stats?




i'm thinking about the possibility of cutting these guys in half, actually.  (unless the legends actually say they are supposed to be 100 feet tall - wouldn't want to mess with mythology!)    that way, most would be between the two types in size as well as power.  wise, or not?  



> The MM titan has spell resistance of CR + 11.  The elder has CR + 10.  I'd vote we stick with CR + 11.




works for me.  



> The MM titan has damage reduction 15/lawful.  The elder has  20/epic.  Should we meet halfway with 15/epic and lawful?  What about Prometheus, who is neutral good?   Maybe 15/epic and evil?




errr... no.  by adding "and" to DR, that actually makes it more powerful.  "epic and lawful" is more powerful than "epic" because while my +6 longsword will fully affect an elder titan, it will do 15 less points of damage to a greater titan.  



> The elder titan has a +24 insight bonus to AC.  The MM titan has none.  Maybe we can give our guys +12?




we'll see.  i'll support an insight bonus, but i would rather key it to wisdom than a set value.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm thinking about the possibility of cutting these guys in half, actually.  (unless the legends actually say they are supposed to be 100 feet tall - wouldn't want to mess with mythology!)    that way, most would be between the two types in size as well as power.  wise, or not?




I did a Google search, but couldn't find any sizes for these guys.   At 50 feet, they'd at least be Gargantuan, so we may still want to advance a basic titan first.    Personally, I'd like to see them all be Colossal, maybe 70 feet tall or so.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> errr... no.  by adding "and" to DR, that actually makes it more powerful.  "epic and lawful" is more powerful than "epic" because while my +6 longsword will fully affect an elder titan, it will do 15 less points of damage to a greater titan.




Oops!  Good point, way too powerful.   Perhaps 15/epic, then?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we'll see.  i'll support an insight bonus, but i would rather key it to wisdom than a set value.




Fair enough.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> I did a Google search, but couldn't find any sizes for these guys.   At 50 feet, they'd at least be Gargantuan, so we may still want to advance a basic titan first.    Personally, I'd like to see them all be Colossal, maybe 70 feet tall or so.




it's something to think about.    maybe some mythology experts are hanging around somewhere...


----------



## Clifford (Dec 4, 2003)

Here is a quick little Stat block for a minimuly powerful colosal titan.

Advanced titan: CR 24; colossal outsider ; HD 31d8+434; hp 573; Init +1; Spd 60 ft.; AC 24, touch 3, flat-footed 23; Base Atk +31; Grp +67; Atk by weapon ;Full Atk:By weapon ; Space/Reach: 15ft/15ft; SA Oversized weapon, spell-like abilities; SQ Damage reduction 15/lawful, darkvision 60 ft., spell resistance 35.; AL N; SV ; Str 51, Dex 12, Con 39, Int 21, Wis 28, Cha 24.

442 skill points

11 feats (7 normal 4 epic)

I think wh should give each titan some class levels plus a few unique powers to reflect their area of expertise.

i think advancing them even higher is a good idea the average of an elder titan and a normal titan is about 45 so i think that sounds like a good balance.

Here are a couple ideas i came up with.

Atlas: We should up his lifting multiple by like 20 thus being a Colossal sized creature he would have a lift multiple of about 36 with this power. with the standard 51 str 246,963 Lbs or 132.5 tons. Rahh Atlas Smash!

Coeus: Some sort of fear power maybe like weird or something like that.

Crius: Hmm Reverse gravity, Butt loads of all purpose DR like mayby 15/- to reflect his density.

EPIMETHEUS: Um er uhh Hmm I cant think of anything special for him.

Kronos: That lava ball sounds good Maybe like metior swarm or something?

Oceanus: Controlling weather and commanding fishy creatures he can be like aquaman except he wont suck.

PROMETHEUS: He seems like a brainy dude so maybe +5-10 insight bonus on all knowledge or profession rolls.

Reah: Maybe dr of XX/Forged weapons

Cliff


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## Filby (Dec 5, 2003)

Hmm... I don't get anything when I click on the attatchment link, Boz.

EDIT: Oooh... I got 100 posts the other day and didn't even realize.


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## BOZ (Dec 5, 2003)

Here, try this one instead.  I fixed some of the things wrong with the original scan, namely Atlas’ height (50’) and Coeus’ height (21’).    (they’re the shorties of the bunch)

And now that I think of it… we might as well keep them at the heights as listed.


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2003)

here's an important question that i think i need to ask.

to really get things started on these guys, do you want to write them up as a race (i.e., "typical greater titans have these stats" and give general background info) that we would use as a base to create the individuals, OR would we be better off simply treating each of these as an individual and converting them on a one-by-one basis?


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

I could go either way on this one.  On the one hand, the archfiends do not have any common traits listed in the BOVD, just a small descriptive writeup.   On the other hand, the BOED does provide shared traits for the different subgroupings of celestial paragons.   So precedence for unique beings supports either way.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

they *are* a cohesive race, unlike demon lords.  i'm thinking more and more that we need a racial "standard", and modify all the stats for the individual titans.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

That sounds like a good plan.  How shall we begin?


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

well, we need to set some values to work off of.  

I’d say that we need to set it’s Hit Dice, for one.  I’m thinking 30 or 35.  then we add class levels on top of that.

Also, size.  I’m thinking Gargantuan, and we’ll advance the bigger ones to Colossal. Coeus is a special weird case, since he’s actually shorter than a lesser titan!

And ability scores as well.  We can set a lower value, then up the stats as we give them class levels.

The rest should be relatively easy to figure out once we get these things.


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

I'd like to discourage setting a static HD, then adding class levels.  They'll end up much weaker than if they had outsider HD and retained some class abilities.   

I'd rather see something like the elder titans and dragons, where they have the spellcasting ability of an Xth level arcane and divine caster, and a couple of domains.    For those with other class abilities, we could say that they have the following ability(s) as an X-level class.  For example, for Atlas' monk levels, we could just say that he has the flurry of blows ability of a 10th-level monk.

Fighter levels won't offer much for these guys.   They already have fighter BAB, better saves, far better skills, and plenty of feats just from their outsider levels and high HD.

That's just my opinion, and I'll concede to your ultimate decision.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

well, i was also considering what you just said.  if we did that, the HD should be more like 40-50 (some titans will have more HD than others).


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

Sounds good.  If we are writing up an actual statblock for a generic greater titan, we could start with 40 HD and allow the advancement range to take care of the rest.  Thus, Atlas could be a unique _advanced_ greater titan, for example.

Or, you could just make a greater titan entry that included all their shared traits (like the tanar'ri entry or the Celestial Hebdomad, for example).


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

hmm... think i'll have another look at the BoED so i actually know what you're talking about.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

did you mean more than just the special qualities?  because that's all i saw.


Some basic notes on titans 3.0 to 3.5:

Natural AC was bumped from +13 to +19;
SR was increased from 25 to 32
Str was increased from 37 to 43, Con from 23 to 39, Wis from 20 to 28, and Cha from 18 to 24

So, I made the same changes to the elder titan, then averaged the results (give or take a bit) to get some of the numbers found below.

Here then are some basics to start with:

*Titan, Greater*
Gargantuan Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 40d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 60 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: X (-1 size, +X Dex, +28 natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+X
Attack: Slam +X melee (XdX+X)
Full Attack: 2 slams +X melee (XdX+X)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/epic, SR 36+
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 47 Dex 20 Con 43 Int 27 Wis 28 Cha 28 (subject to change – all the titans in the old D&DG had a high Dex – keep or no?)
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Any outer plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard?
Alignment: Usually any chaotic
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: ?

Greater titans are usually at least 50 feet tall and weighs X pounds, but can grow to be up to 100 feet tall and weigh X pounds.

COMBAT


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

I was just thinking along the lines of...

*Titan, Greater*

Description.

COMBAT

Greater Titan Traits: A greater titan possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

—Immunity to ...
—Resistance to ...
—Anything else they share.

Except where otherwise noted, greater titans speak X, Y, and Z.

But if you want to stat out a generic greater titan, and then make unique versions of each, that is cool.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

For your sample titan, I'd add...

SA  Oversized weapon, spell-like abilities
SQ  Darkvision 60 ft.

Greater titans speak Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant.

A greater titan's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

*Oversized Weapon (Ex):*  A greater titan wields a great, two-handed weapon (big enough for Colossal creatures) with no penalty.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

yeah, that's where i was heading.


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## BOZ (Dec 8, 2003)

oversized weapon does make sense, even if most of the titans here just use fists.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oversized weapon does make sense, even if most of the titans here just use fists.




Gotta leave their options open.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

ok, fixed up some flavor text and worked on the abilities some more:

*Titan, Greater*
Gargantuan Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 40d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 60 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: X (-4 size, +X Dex, +28 natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+X
Attack: Slam +X melee (2d6?+X)
Full Attack: 2 slams +X melee (2d6?+X)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft
Special Attacks: Oversized weapon, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction X/epic, darkvision 60 ft, spell resistance 36+
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 47 Dex 20 Con 43 Int 27 Wis 28 Cha 28 (subject to change – all the titans in the old D&DG had a high Dex – keep or no?)
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Any outer plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard?
Alignment: Usually any chaotic
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: ?

Though hardly the only titans in existence, greater titans are considered the originals and are the ones whom Olympian legends are written about.  Names such as Prometheus, Atlas, and Cronus are well known in stories throughout the world.

The greater titans were born to the ancient gods, Gaea and Uranus, and replaced them as rulers of the universe.  Cronus and Rhea were the first king and queen of the titans, and their progeny were the first of the Olympian gods.  Cronus sought to destroy his children, but they fought back and exiled Cronus and his siblings to the bleak prison plane of Tarterus.  Though Rhea and the many children of the original titans are generally free to roam, Cronus is imprisoned with his siblings Oceanus, Tethys, Hyperion, Mnemosyne, Themis, Iapetus, Coeus, Crius, Phebe, and Thea.  The Olympians consider them too dangerous to forgive, and they are locked away to this very day.

Greater titans, like the lesser titans below them and the elder titans above them, resemble immense human beings.  These titans are usually of extreme physical beauty, and those that are not tend to be hideously ugly.  Each one embodies an aspect of humanity or the mortal world, and has powers to match.  

The titans’ personalities and goals are as varied as those of humans, and they pursue their desired with a great passion.  All titans bear either a tremendous respect or fear for the Olympian gods, and will never tolerate open disrespect for them (those that hate the gods will see such insolence as a trick they do not want to fall for).  Though unconcerned with mortal matters, they roam the lands of men and may be searching for a voluminous feast, an epic adventure, or an all-consuming love.

Greater titans are usually at least 50 feet tall and weighs about 100,000 pounds, but can grow to be up to 100 feet tall and weigh as much as 800,000 pounds.

Greater titans speak Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant.

COMBAT
A greater titan in combat is an awesome thing to behold, and perhaps the only more frightening thing is a clash of the titans.  Their sheer, raw physical and magical power is more than enough to lay waste to the countryside as well as the people in it.

Greater titans usually have special attacks and special qualities beyond those listed here, and these powers are appropriate to the nature of the titan and the aspect it embodies.  They almost always have abilities like those of various character classes, including but not limited to spellcasting.

A greater titan's natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields, are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Oversized Weapon (Ex): A greater titan can wield a great, two-handed weapon (big enough for Colossal creatures) with no penalty.

Spell-Like Abilities: (copied from regular titan) At will – chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour); 3/day – etherealness, word of chaos (DC X), summon nature’s ally IX; 1/day – gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X).  Caster level Xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.
In addition, titans of good or neutral alignment can use the following additional spell-like abilities: At will – daylight, holy smith (DC X), remove curse (DC X); 1/day – greater restoration.  Caster level Xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.
Titans of evil alignment can use the following additional spell-like abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), deeper darkness, unholy blight (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X).  Caster level Xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Additional spell-like abilities from the greater titan (keep or not? Maybe some, maybe all): alter self, analyze dweomer, commune with nature, eyebite, freedom of movement, fly, fog cloud, produce flame, protection from elements, read magic, sanctuary, sending, speak with animals, soften earth and stone, speak with plants, summon monster VI, teleport without error, wind walk; 3/day – antilife shell, astral projection, contact other plane, greater dispelling, greater scrying, plane shift.  Caster level 29th; save DC 18 + spell level.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

Excellent description!  You get bonus points for including a Clash of the Titans reference.    

Reading through the description made me realize that the greater titans have some similarities to the abominations in the Epic-Level Handbook.   Both are the offspring of gods, and many titans were imprisoned like the abominations.  Perhaps we could get some ideas from the abomination entry?

With the spell-like abilities, do you plan to have a common set, and then give each of them unique spell-like abilities that corresponds with their aspect of humanity or the mortal world (i.e., time stop for Kronos)?

I'd vote to leave the high Dex scores.  It is interesting to have a Gargantuan+ creature with respectable Dex.

For Advancement, perhaps 41-80 HD (Gargantuan), 81-120 HD (Colossal)?


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Excellent description!  You get bonus points for including a Clash of the Titans reference.




i'm _just_ old enough to vaguely remember the series.  



> Reading through the description made me realize that the greater titans have some similarities to the abominations in the Epic-Level Handbook.   Both are the offspring of gods, and many titans were imprisoned like the abominations.  Perhaps we could get some ideas from the abomination entry?




sounds like a plan.  



> With the spell-like abilities, do you plan to have a common set, and then give each of them unique spell-like abilities that corresponds with their aspect of humanity or the mortal world (i.e., time stop for Kronos)?




i think the way it was done in the MM was nice.  the standard set, then additional sets for good and neutral, or evil.  we can leave the standard sets sparse, and get more creative with the individual titans?  or just add one or two appropriate ones...



> I'd vote to leave the high Dex scores.  It is interesting to have a Gargantuan+ creature with respectable Dex.




good.    for the ability scores, we'll take this standard minimum, and adjust it up by comparing how the titans' original scores stack up against each other.



> For Advancement, perhaps 41-80 HD (Gargantuan), 81-120 HD (Colossal)?




i don't know, that's a conflict i had which is why i left it blank.  if we do it that way, then most of these guys will have more HD than an elder titan.  maybe by character class would work better here (even if it isn't a precedent)?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i think the way it was done in the MM was nice.  the standard set, then additional sets for good and neutral, or evil.  we can leave the standard sets sparse, and get more creative with the individual titans?  or just add one or two appropriate ones...




I like the sparse/creative option.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't know, that's a conflict i had which is why i left it blank.  if we do it that way, then most of these guys will have more HD than an elder titan.  maybe by character class would work better here (even if it isn't a precedent)?




Well, I'm not so sure that should be an issue anymore.   The greater titans' physical ability scores already trump those of the elder titan.   Heck, the _normal_ titan's Con is 8 higher than the elder!    

Having looked more closesly at the elder titans and the revised normal titans, I think we can probably ignore the elder titans until WOTC does a better job converting them to 3.5.  As they stand, they are simply bigger and have more HD and some spellcasting ability (which regular titans had in 3E).


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

ok, but i don't want to have the Colossal titans having far more HD than their smaller cousins.  we might as well just make them elder titans if we did that, and that would kinda defeat what we're doing here.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

OK.  Then how about 41-60 HD (Gargantuan), 61-80 HD (Colossal)?


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

hmm...  i just don't want their HD to be dependent on their size or vice versa.  there's got to be another way around that.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

I still think your best bet would be to simply draw up a list of common traits, then make each a unique, advanced regular titan.   For example, like Bel is to a standard pit fiend.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

yeah, but bel is (or should be) much more powerful than a standard pit fiend.

i think i'm going to just do this:
Advancement: 41-80 HD (Gargantuan)
that way, any size adjustment is apart from regular advancement.  sound crazy, or might it just work?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, but bel is (or should be) much more powerful than a standard pit fiend.




True, and Prometheus could be much more powerful than a standard titan in the same manner.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i think i'm going to just do this:
> Advancement: 41-80 HD (Gargantuan)
> that way, any size adjustment is apart from regular advancement.  sound crazy, or might it just work?




It might work.  Let's stat out Atlas and see.


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## BOZ (Dec 10, 2003)

How about some skills and feats first?    naturally, we can switch them out or add to them as need be, but I’d like a base list to work from.  How many feats would a 40-HD titan have?

And what about saves?

Should we give an insight bonus to AC?

And I’d like to come up with a (smaller) list for spell-likes to work off of…


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> How about some skills and feats first?    naturally, we can switch them out or add to them as need be, but I’d like a base list to work from.  How many feats would a 40-HD titan have?




Skills:  688 total
Feats:  7 total
Epic Feats:  7 total

Suggested Skill Ranks:  Balance 20, Bluff 43, Climb 23, Concentration 43, Craft (any one) 43, Diplomacy 43, Heal 43, Intimidate 43, Jump 43, Knowledge (any two) 43 each, Listen 43, Perform (oratory) 43, Search 43, Sense Motive 43, Spellcraft 43, Spot 43

This includes all the lesser titan's skills, except that I omitted Disguise, Survival, and Swim from the list because the lesser titan had no ranks in these skills, only ability modifiers and synergy bonuses.  We can add them back in to the final list in the same manner.

Suggested Feats:	Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability. 

Suggested Epic Feats:  Damage Reduction, Fast Healing, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness, Improved Combat Reflexes, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Wrestler, Mighty Sunder, Spellcasting Harrier.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And what about saves?




Using Krishnath's formula, base saves are Fort +22, Ref +22, Will +22



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should we give an insight bonus to AC?




No.  Maybe on a case-by-case basis.  I could see Kronos getting one, considering his time-based focus.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And I’d like to come up with a (smaller) list for spell-likes to work off of…




I'll get back to you on that.


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## BOZ (Dec 11, 2003)

groooovy baby


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## BOZ (Dec 11, 2003)

ok, here's a stat block, updated:

*Titan, Greater*
Gargantuan Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 40d8+640 (840 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 39 (-4 size, +5 Dex, +28 natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+70
Attack: Slam +59 melee (2d6+18)
Full Attack: 2 slams +59 melee (2d6+18)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft
Special Attacks: Oversized weapon, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/epic, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 3, spell resistance 36
Saves: Fort +42 Ref +31 Will +35
Abilities: Str 47 Dex 20 Con 43 Int 27 Wis 28 Cha 28
Skills: Balance +19, Bluff +29, Climb +31, Concentration +47, Craft (any two) +31, Decipher Script +38, Diplomacy +19, Disguise +9 (+11 in character), Gather Information +28, Heal +28, Intimidate +42, Jump +48, Knowledge (any three) +39, Listen +40, Perform (any two) +39, Search +39, Sense Motive +40, Spellcraft +28, Spot +40, Survival +9 (+11 following tracks)
Feats: Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (X). 
Epic Feats: Fast Healing, Epic Fortitude, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness, Epic Will, Legendary Leaper.

Environment: Any outer plane
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 28?
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic (any)
Advancement: 41-80 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2003)

I'd recommend keeping all the lesser titan's spell-like abilities, and adding the following from the elder titan:

1/day - plane shift, wind walk.
3/day - freedom of movement, greater teleport.
At will - protection from elements, read magic.

And of course, each individual will have his own niche-related spell-like abilities.


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## BOZ (Dec 12, 2003)

hokey-dokey!  guess i'll start atlas when i get a chance...  

what should be caster level for the spell-likes?  regular titans get 20.  elder titans get 29, but most archfiends have 20.


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## Clifford (Dec 13, 2003)

um how about 25 i think the only reason the arch fiends had only caster level  20 is because they never took the epic level handbook into account when doing the BOVD thats why none of the arch fiends have epic feats but sesne epic crap is Ogl now there is no reason for the Epicly badassed greater titans to not have higher caster levels.

Cliff


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2003)

hmm, but the celestial paragons also cast their spell-like abilities as 20th level casters.  the mystery deepens...


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2003)

Before we get started on the individual titans, we should figure out their approximate power levels in relation to each other.  Maybe the mightiest will have 50 HD and the rest somewhere between 40-50.

COEUS - HIT POINTS: 344

EPIMETHEUS - HIT POINTS: 345

ATLAS - HIT POINTS: 350

PROMETHEUS - HIT POINTS: 388

OCEANUS - HIT POINTS: 390

CRIUS - HIT POINTS: 390

CRONUS - HIT POINTS: 400


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## Clifford (Dec 14, 2003)

*titanic ideas*

how about (Old HP/ 5) - 29 with 40 Hd being the minimum.

I used this formula and used the average hp (388 i beleive it was) and minused 29 to put it into the range we came up with.

COEUS - HIT POINTS: 40 hd

EPIMETHEUS - HIT POINTS: 40 hd

ATLAS - HIT POINTS: 41

PROMETHEUS - HIT POINTS: 48

OCEANUS - HIT POINTS: 49

CRIUS - HIT POINTS: 49

CRONUS - HIT POINTS: 51 (Cronus is the most Kick ass titan anyway.)


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## BOZ (Dec 15, 2003)

hey, that's not bad.    how's that look to everyone else?


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> hey, that's not bad.    how's that look to everyone else?




That just might work.    

For caster level, I'll second the vote for 25.


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2003)

ok, time to start on the individual titans!

*Titan, Greater, Atlas*
Gargantuan Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 41d8+697 (881 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 60 ft (10 squares), fly  80 (perfect)
Armor Class: 44 (-4 size, +5 Dex, +33 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 39
Base Attack/Grapple: +41/+68
Attack: Slam +X melee (10d10+X)?
Full Attack: 2 slams +X melee (10d10+X)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft
Special Attacks: Oversized weapon, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 15/epic, darkvision 60 ft, SR 45, unlimited strength
Saves: Fort +43 Ref +31 Will +36
Abilities: Str 48 Dex 20 Con 44 Int 27 Wis 30 Cha 28
Skills: 704
Feats: 7+7?

Environment: Tarterian Depths of Carceri
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

_This immense humanoid has an unimaginably massive build, seeming to have muscles where muscles shouldn’t be.  His expression seems rather crafty._

Atlas is the embodiment of physical might, and is considered strength personified.  Despite his alignment, Atlas can actually be very honorable, and it is well known that if he gives his word on a matter he will keep even if this oath means his death.

Atlas led the Titans in their struggles with the Olympians, and was thus condemned to bear the weight of the earth and sky upon his shoulders forever.  Though Atlas is officially a prisoner of Tarterus, part of his punishment involves spending most of his time on the Material Plane.

Atlas is 50 feet tall and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT 


Some notes from the original description:

His damage per slam attack was listed as an astounding 10-100 (10d10), far higher than any of his other fellows.  How high should we set his baseline damage before adding his strength bonus (and remember, each had varying amounts of damage for their slams).

Speaking of strength, I propose we deal with his might this way.  Here is the text: “This strength is drawn from the Prime Material Plane. When the titan is on other planes he only has strength of 25, but when on the Prime Material Plane there is nothing he can't lift, nothing he can't bend, and nothing he can't break!”  We’ll say that on the outer planes (or any other than Material) his strength will be at the value we ultimately determine.  However, on the Material Plane, his Str score will be effectively infinite for the purpose of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats.  His attack bonus and damage bonus, however, will remain unchanged.  Sound fair?

Now, each titan had character levels.  Altas was listed as a 19th level fighter and 10th level monk.  What class features should we therefore assign him?  Since monks are strictly lawful now, I’d be wary about giving him too many monk abilities.


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## Leopold (Dec 16, 2003)

> Atlas is the embodiment of physical might, and is considered strength personified. Despite his alignment, Atlas can actually be very honorable, and it is well known that if he gives his word on a matter he will keep even if this oath means his death





um change teh alignment to be LE then! this will solve lots of problems then.


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2003)

naaahh... i like 'em CE.  and the monk abilities are not really necessary, it's just an idea - not worth changing alignment over.


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## Clifford (Dec 17, 2003)

*Atlas with class*

Hmm how about Fighter 10 i think that if we overpower them with levels it would take away from the fact that the gods dethrowned them if we over class them then it would make less sense that the gods whooped their arses.

cliff


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Some notes from the original description:
> 
> His damage per slam attack was listed as an astounding 10-100 (10d10), far higher than any of his other fellows.  How high should we set his baseline damage before adding his strength bonus (and remember, each had varying amounts of damage for their slams).




Hmmm...The way I see it, we have several options:

One, we could give him the unarmed attack bonus of a 10th-level monk, and then advance it to size Colossal.

Two, we could give him the 10d10.  The highest slam attack damage I could find on a monster was the adamantine golem in the ELH, at 6d10 for a 54HD, CR 25, Huge construct.   I could see the legendary Atlas besting a Huge golem.

Three, we could give him the standard slam damage for a Gargantuan creature (or slightly better), and then improve it with great Strength, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Spec, and Epic Weapon Spec.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Speaking of strength, I propose we deal with his might this way.  Here is the text: “This strength is drawn from the Prime Material Plane. When the titan is on other planes he only has strength of 25, but when on the Prime Material Plane there is nothing he can't lift, nothing he can't bend, and nothing he can't break!”  We’ll say that on the outer planes (or any other than Material) his strength will be at the value we ultimately determine.  However, on the Material Plane, his Str score will be effectively infinite for the purpose of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats.  His attack bonus and damage bonus, however, will remain unchanged.  Sound fair?




That sounds fair.  We could also give him the domain ability of the Strength domain, so he could occasionally bring his great strength to bear in combat.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Now, each titan had character levels.  Altas was listed as a 19th level fighter and 10th level monk.  What class features should we therefore assign him?  Since monks are strictly lawful now, I’d be wary about giving him too many monk abilities.




We could add a Feats section in the description that states:  "Atlas is treated as a 19th-level fighter for purposes of meeting the prerequisites of feats such as Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization."

For monk abilities, maybe give him Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, and the flurry of blows ability.  The only other thing I could see giving him is the unarmored AC bonus.


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2003)

I was rethinking the idea about his slam damage – base damage doesn’t need to be as high as 10d10, as he gets his Strength bonus (+19) plus whatever feats we add to enhance that.  I think I’ll bump his Str up to 50 (+20 bonus), make the base damage 8d10, and give him the weapon specialization plus the greater and epic versions (+8 bonus total), making the total damage range 36-108.

Unlimited Strength (Su): While on the Material Plane, Atlas can perform seeming impossible feats of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats.  His strength score is effectively infinite to perform such feats.  This ability cannot be used during combat. (although maybe a Concentration roll to lift a building or smash something??)

Modified Strength Domain ability: “Atlas can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability.  He gains an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to (X).  Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable X per day.”  Alternatively, that first sentence can simply be replaced with: “Feat of Strength (Su):”


Well, before we go too far into making a monk(ey) out of Atlas (thankfully, none of the other titans had monk levels), why not examine what a 10th level monk had in 1E?

“With respect to combat, monks attack on the same table as thieves. However, they add one-half of a hit point per level of experience to the amount of damage they score when they successfully attack an opponent with a weapon. This simulates their study and knowledge of weapons and anatomy. A 1st level monk scores x + % HP of damage, where x equals the damage done by the weapon used and HP equals the number of hit points of damage. A 2nd level monk does x + 1 when he or she scores a hit, a 3rd level x + 1 %, and so on all the way to Grand Master of Flowers who scores x + 8% HP damage. Monks of median level and above actually fight better without weapons, using their open hands, despite the weapon damage bonus they receive.”

and

“Monks make saving throws on the table used by thieves, but they gain certain advantages: Non-magical missiles (arrows, bolts, bullets, thrown daggers, thrown javelins, thrown spears, etc.) which would normally hit can be dodged are knocked aside if the monk is able to make his or her saving throw against petrification for each such potential hit. In other respects, if a monk makes his or her saving throw against an attack form, the monk will sustain no damage from the attack, even if the attack form was a fireball, for instance. At 9th level (Master of the North Wind) or higher, a monk who fails to make his or her saving throw will still sustain but one-half the total potential damage which the attack form could deliver, if possible. That is, a fireball would do 50% of total damage, but the gaze of a basilisk would still petrify the monk.

At 1st level of experience, a monk is as likely to be surprised as any other character, i.e. 33 1/3%. This chance goes down to 32% at 2nd level, and it thereafter goes down 2% per level, so there is only a 30% chance of surprising a 3rd level monk, 28% chance at 4th level, 26% chance at 5th level, etc.”

Monks also had the thief abilities of Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Hear Noise, and Climb Walls as a thief of the same level.

“At 6th level (Master), a monk can fall up to 30' if he or she is within 4' of a wall.

The monk must have an opportunity to periodically make contact with the wall during the descent. The wall is used by the monk to slow the fall so that no hit points of damage are sustained from the fall. Note that when reference to a wall is made, any similar surface, such as a tree trunk, cliff face, and the like, are equally useful to the monk.”

A level 10 monk had the following attributes.  AC of 3 (mimicked by insight bonus now), movement rate of 24 (60 feet now), 2 open hand melee attacks per round at 3-13 damage each, and the following special abilities:

“A. The ability to speak with animals as druids do which begins at 3rd level of experience.

B. The ability to mask the mind so that ESP has only a 30% chance of success. This power begins at 4th level, and with each level
of experience which the monk gains thereafter, the chance for success of ESPing the monk's thoughts drops by 2%, i.e. 28% chance of success on a 5th level monk, 26% on a 6th level, etc.

C. At 5th experience level a monk is not subject to diseases of any sort, nor is he ever affected by haste or slow spells.

D. The ability to use self-induced catalepsy to appear dead. This can be done perfectly, as the 6th (or higher) level monk is able to lower his or her body temperature and heart rate. The monk is able to maintain this state for twice the number of turns (10 minute periods) which equal his level, i.e. 12 turns at 6th level, 14 at 7th, etc.

E. At 7th level the monk gains the ability to heal damage on his or her body. The amount of damage which can be healed is 2-5 hit points (d4 + l), and this amount increases by 1 hit point with each experience level gained thereafter, i.e. 3-6 HP at 8th level, 4-7 at 9th, etc. This may be done once per day.

F. The ability to speak with plants as druids do. This power is attained at 8th level.

G. Beguiling, charms, hypnosis, and suggestion spells have only a 50% chance of affecting a monk of the 9th level of experience. That is, the monk is 50% resistant to such magic. This resistance increases 5% per level thereafter, so that at 10th level such spells have but a 45% chance of affecting the monk, 40% at 11th level, and so on. Saving throws apply if resistance fails.

H. Telepathic and mind blast attacks (see ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, MONSTER MANUAL, Mind Flayer) upon a monk of 10th or higher level are made as if the character had an 18 intelligence, due to the monk's mental discipline.”


Now, I don’t think it’s necessary to give Atlas all, or even most of this.  We can pick and choose from the above abilities (or even better, their analogies from 3E) to give him what makes the most sense.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I was rethinking the idea about his slam damage – base damage doesn’t need to be as high as 10d10, as he gets his Strength bonus (+19) plus whatever feats we add to enhance that.  I think I’ll bump his Str up to 50 (+20 bonus), make the base damage 8d10, and give him the weapon specialization plus the greater and epic versions (+8 bonus total), making the total damage range 36-108.




Great!    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Unlimited Strength (Su): While on the Material Plane, Atlas can perform seeming impossible feats of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats.  His strength score is effectively infinite to perform such feats.  This ability cannot be used during combat. (although maybe a Concentration roll to lift a building or smash something??)




Although it should seem obvious, you might want to state that he automatically succeeds on any Strength check.   Since smashing a building is considered attacking an object, should he be allowed to do it in combat?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Modified Strength Domain ability: “Atlas can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability.  He gains an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to (X).  Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable X per day.”  Alternatively, that first sentence can simply be replaced with: “Feat of Strength (Su):”




I like the Feat of Strength (Su) sentence.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, before we go too far into making a monk(ey) out of Atlas (thankfully, none of the other titans had monk levels), why not examine what a 10th level monk had in 1E?
> 
> “With respect to combat, monks attack on the same table as thieves. However, they add one-half of a hit point per level of experience to the amount of damage they score when they successfully attack an opponent with a weapon. This simulates their study and knowledge of weapons and anatomy. A 1st level monk scores x + % HP of damage, where x equals the damage done by the weapon used and HP equals the number of hit points of damage. A 2nd level monk does x + 1 when he or she scores a hit, a 3rd level x + 1 %, and so on all the way to Grand Master of Flowers who scores x + 8% HP damage. Monks of median level and above actually fight better without weapons, using their open hands, despite the weapon damage bonus they receive.”
> 
> ...




Improved Unarmed Strike and Deflect Arrows as bonus feats, evasion.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> At 1st level of experience, a monk is as likely to be surprised as any other character, i.e. 33 1/3%. This chance goes down to 32% at 2nd level, and it thereafter goes down 2% per level, so there is only a 30% chance of surprising a 3rd level monk, 28% chance at 4th level, 26% chance at 5th level, etc.”




We can handle this with Spot and Listen, maybe Alertness as bonus feat?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Monks also had the thief abilities of Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Move Silently, Hide in Shadows, Hear Noise, and Climb Walls as a thief of the same level.




We can just give him the skills, if necessary.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “At 6th level (Master), a monk can fall up to 30' if he or she is within 4' of a wall.
> 
> The monk must have an opportunity to periodically make contact with the wall during the descent. The wall is used by the monk to slow the fall so that no hit points of damage are sustained from the fall. Note that when reference to a wall is made, any similar surface, such as a tree trunk, cliff face, and the like, are equally useful to the monk.”




Slow fall ability, although I don't think he needs it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A level 10 monk had the following attributes.  AC of 3 (mimicked by insight bonus now), movement rate of 24 (60 feet now), 2 open hand melee attacks per round at 3-13 damage each, and the following special abilities:
> 
> “A. The ability to speak with animals as druids do which begins at 3rd level of experience.




Speak with animals as a spell-like ability should handle this.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> B. The ability to mask the mind so that ESP has only a 30% chance of success. This power begins at 4th level, and with each level
> of experience which the monk gains thereafter, the chance for success of ESPing the monk's thoughts drops by 2%, i.e. 28% chance of success on a 5th level monk, 26% on a 6th level, etc.




Nondetection, mind blank, or something similar as spell-like abilities?  Always active?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> C. At 5th experience level a monk is not subject to diseases of any sort, nor is he ever affected by haste or slow spells.




We could give him immunity to disease, but I'd skip the rest.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> D. The ability to use self-induced catalepsy to appear dead. This can be done perfectly, as the 6th (or higher) level monk is able to lower his or her body temperature and heart rate. The monk is able to maintain this state for twice the number of turns (10 minute periods) which equal his level, i.e. 12 turns at 6th level, 14 at 7th, etc.




I vote to lose this.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> E. At 7th level the monk gains the ability to heal damage on his or her body. The amount of damage which can be healed is 2-5 hit points (d4 + l), and this amount increases by 1 hit point with each experience level gained thereafter, i.e. 3-6 HP at 8th level, 4-7 at 9th, etc. This may be done once per day.




Wholeness of body, or give him a cure spell-like ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> F. The ability to speak with plants as druids do. This power is attained at 8th level.




Speak with plants as spell-like ability?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> G. Beguiling, charms, hypnosis, and suggestion spells have only a 50% chance of affecting a monk of the 9th level of experience. That is, the monk is 50% resistant to such magic. This resistance increases 5% per level thereafter, so that at 10th level such spells have but a 45% chance of affecting the monk, 40% at 11th level, and so on. Saving throws apply if resistance fails.




+X bonus on saves vs. mind-affecting effects?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> H. Telepathic and mind blast attacks (see ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS, MONSTER MANUAL, Mind Flayer) upon a monk of 10th or higher level are made as if the character had an 18 intelligence, due to the monk's mental discipline.”




Psionic resistance?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Although it should seem obvious, you might want to state that he automatically succeeds on any Strength check.   Since smashing a building is considered attacking an object, should he be allowed to do it in combat




i rewrote his two strength-based powers as this.  does that cover what we need from him?

Feat of Strength (Su): Atlas gains an enhancement bonus to Strength equal to (X). Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable X per day.

Unlimited Strength (Su): While on the Material Plane, Atlas can perform seeming impossible feats of lifting, bending, breaking, and any other physical feats. He automatically succeeds on any Strength check to perform such feats. This ability cannot be used during combat.

and as to the other stuff, i'll deal with that when i have a moment.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2003)

From what shade suggested, I’m thinking of keeping only the feats (some bonus, some not), the spell-like abilities, and these two:

Evasion (Ex): If Atlas makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage. If helpless, Atlas does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Wholeness of Body (Su): Atlas can heal his own wounds. He can heal 41 hit points of damage each day, and he can spread this healing out among several uses.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2003)

Another thing to work on:

Ok, here are the base spell-likes we decided on, plus the “evil-only” ones added in.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Should we remove any for Atlas?

What additions to this list would be best?  Obviously, bull’s strength and other spells from the Strength domain (especially enlarge person and righteous might) would make good additions.  We could also include speak with animals, speak with plants and nondetection and/or mind blank as suggested by Shade above.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2003)

Hmmm...seeing that Atlas had no spellcaster class levels in his 1E incarnation, I could see giving him only a few strength-related and standard abilities and dumping the rest.  From the original list, I'd keep plane shift (I think all should have this), Bigby's crushing hand (strength-related), greater teleport (again, all should have this, IMO), greater dispel magic (to remove pesky magic so he can smash things    ), and protection from energy (for no particular reason).

I'd add those from the Strength domain as you suggested.   Any of the Bigby's hand spells work well with his overall theme.


----------



## Clifford (Dec 19, 2003)

*atlas*

ok why dose atlas have monk abilities? I mean heck shouldent he have a buncg of feats to mimick his hand to hand Prowes? 

Also an idea for his strength. Maybe because of his ability to smash anything he should have something like: Atlas meets every requirement when peircing Damage reduction of any kind and ignores the hardness of objects.

Cliff


----------



## Krishnath (Dec 19, 2003)

Looks good, one comment though regarding the titans hit dice, the base elder titan in the ELH has 70HD (  ), I think it highly unlikely that Atlas and the rest would have less, remember, they should fear nothing but the mightiest of gods and of course the Hecatoncheires 

Of course, this is just a suggestion. But it looks good so far.

Another suggestion, add the spells from the Earth or War domain (or possibly both) in addition to the Strength domain spells to his spell-like abilities.

Later, and keep up the good work


----------



## BOZ (Dec 24, 2003)

cliff and krish, the answers to some of your questions lie above...



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Also an idea for his strength. Maybe because of his ability to smash anything he should have something like: Atlas meets every requirement when peircing Damage reduction of any kind and ignores the hardness of objects.




that's an idea.  i don't know about ignoring _all_ damage reduction though.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 24, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> What additions to this list would be best?  Obviously, bull’s strength and other spells from the Strength domain (especially enlarge person and righteous might) would make good additions.  We could also include speak with animals, speak with plants and nondetection and/or mind blank as suggested by Shade above.




i'm thinking of addiing on Bigby's grasping hand, Bigby's clenched fist, divine power, power word stun, iron body, and earthquake.  

how many times per round for all of these?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 24, 2003)

I have him at 704 skill ranks.

How about the following skills?

Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot

Others to choose from: Concentration, Craft (blacksmithing), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Knowledge (history, religion, the planes), Move Silently, Perform (?),Spellcraft, Swim, Use Rope

Other suggestions would be helpful also.


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Dec 26, 2003)

Intimidate maxed out.

Every STR-based skill there is (don't know if you've got them there already).


Also, for special abilities, maybe this:

Great Wrestler (Ex): Atlas gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks.


----------



## Shade (Dec 26, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm thinking of addiing on Bigby's grasping hand, Bigby's clenched fist, divine power, power word stun, iron body, and earthquake.




Those sound like good choices.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how many times per round for all of these?




I'd limit them to once per _round_, but maybe three times per _day_.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I have him at 704 skill ranks.
> 
> How about the following skills?
> 
> ...




I like Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (blacksmithing), Diplomacy, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (history, religion, the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Use Rope.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 26, 2003)

we were working with the following feats.  we need one more regular feat, and 6 more epics.  maybe Power Attack, imrpoved bull rush, or awesome blow for that last feat.

thinking of - Alertness, Deflect Arrows, Greater Weapon Specialization (slam), Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (slam), Weapon Specialization (slam)

Epic Weapon Specialization (slam)


----------



## BOZ (Dec 26, 2003)

Khisanth the Ancient said:
			
		

> Great Wrestler (Ex): Atlas gains a +4 bonus on all grapple checks.




i like it.  

Edit:  but now that i think about it, Improved Grapple as a bonus feat would do the exact same thing wouldn't it?    that, and no one can make attacks of opporunity against him for starting a grapple.


----------



## Shade (Dec 27, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we were working with the following feats.  we need one more regular feat, and 6 more epics.  maybe Power Attack, imrpoved bull rush, or awesome blow for that last feat.
> 
> thinking of - Alertness, Deflect Arrows, Greater Weapon Specialization (slam), Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (slam), Weapon Specialization (slam)
> 
> Epic Weapon Specialization (slam)




Deflect Arrows and Improved Unarmed Strike:  is he no longer getting these as bonus feats?

I like the idea of Improved Grapple as a bonus feat as well.

Atlas must have Power Attack!     And he should probably have Improved Sunder as well.  Awesome Blow seems like an obvious choice as well.

For epic feats, how about Epic Endurance, Epic Prowess, Epic Weapon Focus (slam), Fast Healing, Legendary Wrestler, and Mighty Sunder?


----------



## Khisanth the Ancient (Dec 27, 2003)

I think Damage Reduction would be a good epic feat - if we still have extra slots, Atlas could tke it two or three imes.  Or, for general boosting, what about Epic Prowess?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 28, 2003)

i'll switch out epic endurance for epic fortitude, as he doesn't meet the prerequisite.  i'm not sure where you get mighty sunder from?

now posting in homebrews


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm not sure where you get mighty sunder from?




Oops.  I thought it was in the ELH, but it is actually from Epic Insights (Epic Level Combatants), so we can't use it.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

how's he looking so far in homebrews?


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

He's missing one nonepic feat.  I count only six that are not bonus feats, and he should have seven.  I think he still gets one more epic feat as well, but I may have miscalculated.

For weight, a mountain giant is 40 feet tall and weighs nearly 50,000 pounds.  Elder titans stand 75 feet tall or more, and weigh close to 400,000 pounds.  The tarrasque is 70 feet long and 50 feet tall, and it weighs about 260,000 pounds.  So maybe for 225,000 pounds for 50 foot Atlas (who is as tall as the tarrasque, but lacks the extra legs and body)?

For the feat of strength ability, maybe +20 bonus and usable 5/day?


----------



## Krishnath (Dec 29, 2003)

Looking good, who's the next titan? (please say cronos!)


----------



## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

ok, cronos.  

*Titan, Greater, Cronus*
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 51d8+918 (1,147 hp)
Initiative: +10
Speed: 60 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 40 (-8 size, +10 Dex, +28 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 30
Base Attack/Grapple: +51/+90
Attack: Adamantine sickle +62 melee (5d10+X)
Full Attack: Adamantine sickle +62 melee (5d10+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: lava balls, spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/epic, darkvision 60 ft, shapechange, spell resistance 36
Saves: Fort +45 Ref +37 Will +38
Abilities: Str 48 Dex 30 Con 46 Int 40 Wis 32 Cha 32
Skills: 1242
Feats: 7+10?

Environment: Tarterian Depths of Carceri
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Cronus married his sister, Rhea, and they had six children: Hestia, Hera, Demeter, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus.

Cronus dwells in Mount Othrys on the first layer of Carceri, where he holds court.

Cronus is 100 feet tall and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT 


CRONUS (former ruler of the gods and greater titans)
CLERIC/DRUID: 25th level cleric
FIGHTER: 17th level fighter

Cronus appears as a handsome giant. He shape changes at will, and at the beginning of any battle, he hurls lava balls (created out of thin air) up to a maximum range of 200 yards, each doing 4-40 points of damage per strike. His sickle of adamant strikes as a +5 weapon for 5-50 points of damage.

Originally found in the first edition Deities and Demigods (1980, James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz), and Legends and Lore (1990).


From Legends and Lore (2E):

Cronus (greater god)
The youngest of the Titans born to Uranus and Gaea, Cronus was the ambitious one who attacked his father and then assumed the throne to become ruler of the universe. However, when his mother Gaea prophesied that one of his children would overthrow him as he had his father, Cronus proved just as despotic as Uranus. As his wife, Rhea, gave birth to the Olympian gods, he seized them and swallowed them up. His plan might have worked, had Rhea not tricked him into swallowing a stone instead of her sixth child. This god, Zeus, eventually returned to lead the successful revolt against him. Because of his past actions, Cronus was imprisoned in Tartarus.
Role-playing Notes:  Because Cronus remains penned in Tartarus, he is unable to influence events on earth except through his avatars. Therefore, at least one avatar is constantly moving about Greece, promising men great rewards in return for worshipping Cronus and turning their backs on the Olympian gods. On occasion, these avatars rise to a position of power in a polis, and the result is invariably war as the avatar attacks the power bases of Cronus’ rivals. Because of his imprisonment, Cronus cannot send omens or portents.
Statistics:  AL le; WAL any evil; AoC sinister ambition; SY sickle.

Cronus’ Avatar (fighter 20)
Cronus’ avatar is an evil looking fighter with a gleam in his otherwise dark eyes. He often passes himself off as a human warrior with no claim to his divine status.

(stats omitted)

Special Att/Def:  Although it is not magic, Cronus’ adamant sickle cuts through any material it touches, effectively lowering his opponents’ AC to a maximum of 5 (unless due strictly to Dexterity). Beings hit by the sickle must save versus death or lose whatever appendage it hits (DMs should determine this randomly or by decree based on the situation).


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

Check out the Phane from the ELH for some inspiration for this guy.

Suggested Spell-Like Abilities: time stop, temporal stasis, haste, slow, true strike, displacement, blur, safe time (epic spell), time duplicate (epic spell).

Weight:  750,000 lbs.?  (See my thoughts on Atlas' weight above to see where I'm coming from).


----------



## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

well now, before we get too bogged down in the similarity between his name and "chrono", any greek scholars out there know the root of the name kronos/cronus/cronos?  does his name have to do with time, or does it mean something else?  going to do some of my own research on that as well...


----------



## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

ok, 

"Cronus ("crow", also spelled Cronos and Kronos but not to be confused with Chronos)"

from: http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Cronus (where i also got the background info on Atlas from)


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

I just noticed that all the titans in the .doc file have "Psionic Ability: V".  Perhaps we'll need the psionic folks' help on these as well?

Or should we just wait until the Psionics Handbook 3.5 comes out before adding psionic abilities to the new conversions?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 29, 2003)

no, i'm not going to keep everything with having psionics, only in special cases (like the utukku for example) where the creature is unique or appears to have psionics as an important part of their nature.


----------



## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

Fair enough.  That will definitely make our jobs easier.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 30, 2003)

ok, here is some commentary:
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73087

looks like cronos has something of a connection with time, although that is/was not his main aspect.  so, while having a few powers associated with time will be ok, i do not want to make it his main focus.


----------



## Shade (Dec 30, 2003)

Well, at the very least give him time stop, and probably haste and slow.


----------



## GreyShadow (Dec 31, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, cronos.
> 
> *Titan, Greater, Cronus*
> Special Qualities: damage reduction X/epic, darkvision 60 ft, shapechange, spell resistance 36
> ...





"Cronus dear, you've forgotten to do your shoelaces up again"

"Not my fault Rhea, my darkvision only gets to my knees." 

Any chance of extending the range of the darkvision?

Have a Happy New Year all.


----------



## Shade (Dec 31, 2003)

GreyShadow said:
			
		

> "Cronus dear, you've forgotten to do your shoelaces up again"
> 
> "Not my fault Rhea, my darkvision only gets to my knees."
> 
> ...




LOL.    

Good point, really.   If something is that huge, you'd think it would need the greater vision.  On the other hand, WOTC set this unfortunate precedent.  The tarrasque can't see it's tail in the dark.


----------



## GreyShadow (Dec 31, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> On the other hand, WOTC set this unfortunate precedent.  The tarrasque can't see it's tail in the dark.




The Tarrasque interacts with its enviroment by eating everything.  Seeing or not seeing isn't going to make a huge difference.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 1, 2004)

ok, we can make it 120 standard for these guys.


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 1, 2004)

O.K. A few comments on Cronos before we get to carried away.

1. Give all the elder titans 600' darkvision, this puts them on par with most deities, and makes a lot of sense.

2. Give him more HD, he is the king of the titans for cryin' out loud.

3, Give him SR equal to his CR+20, yes +20, he is epic after all.

4, DR 20/epic and lawful and good?

5, Spell-like abilities: _True strike_, _gentle repose_, _haste_, _freedom of movement_, _permanency_, _contingency_, _mass haste_, _foresight_, _time stop_, _protection from law_, _shatter_, _magic circle against law_, _chaos hammer_, _dispel law_, _animate objects_, _word of chaos_, _cloak of chaos_, _summon monster IX*_, _protection from good_, _desecrate_, _magic circle against good_, _unholy blight_, _dispel good_, _create undead_, _blasphemy_, and _unholy aura_,
*cast as chaos or evil spell only
(Note that these spells are the ones from the Chaos, Evil, and Time domains, the time domain if from FRCS, but all it's spells are in the PHB).

6, give him no less than three epic spells of choice (I suggest that one of them is the _animus blizzard_.

Later,


----------



## Clifford (Jan 2, 2004)

I think we should think of them as semi epic sense the goal seems to make them less powerful than the elder titans from the ELH.

cliff


----------



## Clifford (Jan 2, 2004)

I think we should think of them as semi epic sense the goal seems to make them less powerful than the elder titans from the ELH.

cliff


----------



## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

LOL  something like what clifford said twice.    krish you might have missed that way back, but let me recap.  we decided that these "greater titans", as they were called back in the 1E D&DG, were not on the same level as the elder titans.  read the description of what the elders are all about - they're about something completely different.  the elders are about silent meditation and contemplation with a strictly neutral alignment.  but the titans of legend are not of that strain!  the conclusion i came up with is that the elder titans are SO old, that they predate these greater titans.  therefore, we decided to put them somewhere in between the elders and the MM titans.  got it?  

that said, DR 20/epic sounds good enough, and i will definitely take your spell-likes under consideration.  as for epic spells... well, i don't want to get that deeply involved with the ELH.  at most, if i included something on that, it would be really no more than a footnote.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

Some bits from 1E D&DG:

“25th level cleric”

easy enough

“He shape changes at will”

like the spell?

“at the beginning of any battle, he hurls lava balls (created out of thin air) up to a maximum range of 200 yards, each doing 4-40 points of damage per strike”

ranged attack?

A bit more extrapolation on his weapon from the 2E L&L:

“Although it is not magic, Cronus’ adamant sickle cuts through any material it touches, effectively lowering his opponents’ AC to a maximum of 5 (unless due strictly to Dexterity). Beings hit by the sickle must save versus death or lose whatever appendage it hits (DMs should determine this randomly or by decree based on the situation).”

And how many attacks per round should he have with his weapon (at least two)?


----------



## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Weight:  750,000 lbs.?  (See my thoughts on Atlas' weight above to see where I'm coming from).




that might just work.  there is no upper maximum for colossal creatures.  the elder titan in ELH is listed at 75 tall and 400K pounds, so 750 at 100' tall might just make sense.    i'd say kronus should weigh the most out of the 100-footers, just because.


----------



## Shade (Jan 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> “He shape changes at will”
> 
> like the spell?




Or like the phasm?

Alternate Form (Su): Cronus can assume any form of Colossal size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on himself (caster level 20th?), except that Cronus does not regain hit points for changing form. Cronus can remain in his alternate form until he chooses to assume a new one or return to his natural form.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “at the beginning of any battle, he hurls lava balls (created out of thin air) up to a maximum range of 200 yards, each doing 4-40 points of damage per strike”
> 
> ranged attack?




Sounds right.  Should it set combustibles alight?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A bit more extrapolation on his weapon from the 2E L&L:
> 
> “Although it is not magic, Cronus’ adamant sickle cuts through any material it touches, effectively lowering his opponents’ AC to a maximum of 5 (unless due strictly to Dexterity). Beings hit by the sickle must save versus death or lose whatever appendage it hits (DMs should determine this randomly or by decree based on the situation).”




Well, adamantine handles the "cut through material" function now.   For the AC lowering, we could give him armor destruction similar to the bebelith.   Vorpal would be the closest to severing an appendage, and Improved Critical (sickle) or making it keen would help, too.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And how many attacks per round should he have with his weapon (at least two)?




I'd give him 4, since it is a manufactured weapon and his BAB would allow 4 attacks.


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## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Or like the phasm?
> 
> Alternate Form (Su): Cronus can assume any form of Colossal size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on himself (caster level 20th?), except that Cronus does not regain hit points for changing form. Cronus can remain in his alternate form until he chooses to assume a new one or return to his natural form.




that's an interesting way to do it - might just work.  



> Sounds right.  Should it set combustibles alight?




hell yeah!    this ain't no fireball!  



> Well, adamantine handles the "cut through material" function now.   For the AC lowering, we could give him armor destruction similar to the bebelith.   Vorpal would be the closest to severing an appendage, and Improved Critical (sickle) or making it keen would help, too.




ok, i'll look into all that.



> I'd give him 4, since it is a manufactured weapon and his BAB would allow 4 attacks.




kewl


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## Krishnath (Jan 3, 2004)

Oh, I didn't miss the part about making them weaker than the elder titans, I just got carried away there for a bit, but I still think he should have more than 51 HD... 

Hmm.... Maybe SR equal to CR + 15, thus making him on par with some of the more powerful dragons and outsiders?


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## BOZ (Jan 5, 2004)

ok, while the server was down (groan) i took the time to write up Cronus's descriptive text.  one question - do we have D&D stats for a sickle, or would scythe work just fine?


_This colossal humanoid is a handsome man, dressed as a warrior of great skill.  His dark eyes betray a sinister gleam._

Cronus, whose name means “crow,” was once the mighty ruler of the gods, but is now just a prisoner.  He was the youngest of the first generation of Titans born to Uranus and Gaea, and served as the leader of the greater titans.  Cronus hated his father, and his ambition was great enough to attack Uranus to usurp his throne as ruler of the universe.

Uranus had gleefully imprisoned Cronus’ siblings, the Hecatoncheires and the Cyclopes, in the prison of Tarterus.  This pained Gaea greatly, and she conspired with Cronus and the other Titans to teach Uranus a lesson.  She gave Cronus a special adamantine sickle, with which he ambushed his father and castrated him.  After humbling Uranus, Cronus took the throne, with his sister Rhea as his Queen.  They had six children: Hestia, Hera, Demeter, Hades, Poseidon, and Zeus.  Cronus also had a son with Aphrodite, Pothos, and fathered the centaur Chiron with Philyra, the daughter of his brother Oceanus.

Gaea prophesied to Cronus that one of his children would overthrow him just as he had his father.  The despot was fearful, and swallowed up each of these six gods as Rhea gave birth to them.  When he meant to swallow Zeus, Rhea instead tricked him into swallowing a stone wrapped in swaddling clothes.  Rhea hid Zeus in a cave until he was grown, when he returned and lead a successful revolt against Cronus.  Zeus forced Cronus to disgorge his siblings, and then followed a great war between the Titans and the Olympian gods.  Ultimately the titans lost, and Zeus imprisoned Cronus and his brother titans in Tarterus after freeing Cronus’ monstrous siblings from that plane.

Though he was once a greater god of harvest and agriculture, mortals no longer worship Cronus; but as the lord of sinister ambition he seeks to change this. He maintains several small sects of priests dedicated to him who are constantly trying to recruit worshipers through the promise of power or money.  His inability to directly influence the events of the mortal world angers him greatly. Cronus dwells in Mount Othrys on the first layer of Carceri, where he holds court.


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2004)

Sickle?  Right in the PHB.    

However, what he's wielding in that picture definetly ain't a 1d4 sickle.   I'd vote for scythe.


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## BOZ (Jan 5, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sickle?  Right in the PHB.




hmm... right there under Simple weapons.  ya got me.    and i agree, scythe sounds more appropriate.


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## BOZ (Jan 6, 2004)

OK now, Cronus has a lot more magic on his plate than Atlas did.  He casts spells as a 25th level cleric in addition to his spell-like abilities, so that’s a big difference.  We can add some spells to the generic spell-like list (below), and we can add even more to his “typical spells prepared” list that don’t make as much sense as being spell-likes.

Spells: Cronus can cast divine spells as a 25th-level cleric. Cronus has access to the following domains: Chaos, Evil, etc. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/9/9/9/8/8/7/7/6/6; save DC X + spell level): 0--?; 1st--?; 2nd--?; 3rd--?. (Gains no spells/day after level 20?)
*Domain spell. Domains: X.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


Shade: Suggested Spell-Like Abilities: time stop, temporal stasis, haste, slow, true strike, displacement, blur.

Krishnath: Spell-like abilities: True strike, gentle repose, haste, freedom of movement, permanency, contingency, mass haste, foresight, time stop, protection from law, shatter, magic circle against law, chaos hammer, dispel law, animate objects, word of chaos, cloak of chaos, summon monster IX*, protection from good, desecrate, magic circle against good, unholy blight, dispel good, create undead, blasphemy, and unholy aura,
*cast as chaos or evil spell only
(Note that these spells are the ones from the Chaos, Evil, and Time domains, the time domain if from FRCS, but all it's spells are in the PHB).

I don’t think all of Krish’s suggestions are necessary as spell-like abilities, since they are simply just spells from a list.  That doesn’t exclude some of them from being on his “typical spells prepared” list though, of course.

Having been revealed as a god of harvest, though, he _definitely_ needs at least a few plant & weather related spells on those lists.


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## Krishnath (Jan 6, 2004)

Hmm.... plant spells:

_Animate plants_, _control plants_, _entangle_, _liveoak_, _shambler_, _wall of thorns_?

And as for his weapon, yes, definetly a scythe.


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## BOZ (Jan 6, 2004)

isn't there a plant growth type spell?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2004)

There sure is...plant growth!    

Any of the spells from the Plant domain could work:
1. Entangle 
2. Barkskin 
3. Plant growth 
4. Command plants 
5. Wall of thorns 
6. Repel wood 
7. Animate plants 
8. Control plants 
9. Shambler 

Krishnath already mentioned a bunch of these.


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## BOZ (Jan 6, 2004)

and weather-appropriate... should be able to cull from Air and Water


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## BOZ (Jan 7, 2004)

ok, thoughts on this list?

Spells: Cronus can cast divine spells as a 25th-level cleric. Cronus has access to the following domains: Air, Chaos, Evil, and Plant. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/9/9/9/8/8/7/7/6/6; save DC X + spell level): 
0 – create water, detect magic, guidance, inflict minor wounds, purify food and drink, resistance;
1st – cause fear, detect good, divine favor, doom, entangle, entropic shield, protection from good*, protection from law, sanctuary;
2nd – aid, barkskin, desecrate, eagle’s splendor, enthrall, gentle repose, resist energy, shatter*, wind wall;
3rd – blindness/deafness, contagion, create food and water, gaseous form*, glyph of warding, magic circle against law, speak with dead, water walk, wind wall;
4th – air walk*, chaos hammer, command plants, control water, dimensional anchor, greater magic weapon, spell immunity, tongues;
5th – dispel good, dispel law, flame strike, greater command, righteous might, symbol of pain, true seeing, wall of thorns*;
6th – animate objects, chain lightning*, create undead, harm, mass bull’s strength, repel wood, wind walk;
7th – blasphemy*, destruction, greater restoration, greater scrying, regenerate, repulsion, symbol of weakness;
8th – antimagic field, cloak of chaos, earthquake, mass inflict critical wounds, symbol of death, unholy aura*;
9th – elemental swarm, implosion, shambler*, storm of vengeance, summon monster IX, true resurrection.
*Domain spell. Domains: Air, Chaos, Evil, and Plant.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Add to spell-likes?: animate plants, blur, contingency, control plants, control winds, control weather, displacement, foresight, haste, liveoak, magic circle against good, obscuring mist, permanency, plant growth, slow, speak with plants, temporal stasis, time stop, true strike, whirlwind


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## Krishnath (Jan 7, 2004)

Looks good, and add the last ones to the spell-likes, spell level 1-3 at will, spell level 4-6 three times per day, and spell level 7-9 once per day?


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2004)

I second what Krishnath said.


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## BOZ (Jan 7, 2004)

ok, posting in homebrews.  looks mostly done - just need skills & feats.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2004)

Here are the spell-like abilities with save DCs:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC 24), blur, chain lightning (DC 27), charm monster (DC 25), cure critical wounds (DC 25), deeper darkness, displacement, fire storm (DC 29), greater dispel magic, haste, hold monster (DC 26), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, magic circle against good, obscuring mist, persistent image (DC 26), plant growth, polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, slow (DC 24), speak with plants, true strike, unholy blight (DC 25); 3/day – contingency, control winds, etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, liveoak, permanency, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC 28); 1/day –animate plants, Bigby’s crushing hand (DC 30), control plants (DC 29), control weather, foresight, gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC 30), plane shift, temporal stasis (DC 29), time stop, whirlwind (DC 29), wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

He should get 11 epic feats.

Nonepic feat suggestions:  Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Empower Spell, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (scythe), Maximize Spell, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (scythe) [one of these uses an epic feat slot]
Epic feat suggestions:  Devastating Critical (scythe), Fast Healing (x2), Overwhelming Critical (scythe), Improved Darkvision, Improved Spell Capacity, Intensify Spell, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Spellcasting Harrier


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## BOZ (Jan 7, 2004)

Since Shade’s list of feats was one over, and I liked everything he had, I had to choose one to nix.  Improved darkvision seemed the least useful to me (not that he wouldn’t have had a good time with it).  So, now on to skills…

He needs to have certain minimum ranks to have the feats we’ve selected (Balance 12, Climb 24, Jump 24, Spellcraft 30), but other than that I can suggest some other skills he could benefit from:

Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, history, religion, the planes), Listen, Perform (act, oratory, sing), Profession (farmer), Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Since Shade’s list of feats was one over, and I liked everything he had, I had to choose one to nix.  Improved darkvision seemed the least useful to me (not that he wouldn’t have had a good time with it).




Are you sure?     He should get 7 nonepic feats, and epic feats at 21, 24, 27, 30, 33, 36, 39, 42, 45, 48, and 51 HD, for a total of 11.  Of course, I've been wrong about epic progression before.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> So, now on to skills…
> 
> He needs to have certain minimum ranks to have the feats we’ve selected (Balance 12, Climb 24, Jump 24, Spellcraft 30), but other than that I can suggest some other skills he could benefit from:
> 
> Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana, history, religion, the planes), Listen, Perform (act, oratory, sing), Profession (farmer), Search, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival, Swim




All these are excellent suggestions.  I'd also add Knowledge (nature) since he was a harvest god.  For the Craft, how about Craft (alchemy)?


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## Krishnath (Jan 7, 2004)

I think you can safely remove Profession (farmer) from that list, he is a god (well almost) not a commoner. Instead I suggest adding Knowledge (Nature) to the skill list. Other than that, it is a good skill selection.


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## BOZ (Jan 7, 2004)

ok, updating him...

now don't tell me this guy's not an impressive fellow.  

CR suggestions?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2004)

Impressive?  This guy scares the bejeezus out of me!    

Should we add:  "Cronus's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction."?

And I still think he's short a feat (see reasoning above).    

For CR...

Greater Titan CR 28 + 5 (1 CR per 2 HD advanced) + 2 (for possessing special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness) = CR 35.

Oh, and Atlas still needs a CR...

Greater Titan CR 28 + 2 (for possessing special attacks or qualities that significantly improve combat effectiveness) = CR 30.

One thing we haven't been adding to our conversions is languages.

Titans speak Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant.  I'd suggest giving Cronus all of these, as well as Sylvan, Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran.  (He's smart enough to have 15 bonus languages, but most of the others don't make sense for him).

For a standard greater titan and for Atlas, I think that Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant should be enough.


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## BOZ (Jan 8, 2004)

updated atlas and cronus - how these big boys lookin now?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2004)

Lookin' frightfully good.   

I'd vote for triple standard on Cronus' treasure line.


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## Krishnath (Jan 8, 2004)

I concur on all counts.


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## BOZ (Jan 8, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd vote for triple standard on Cronus' treasure line.




quite right, he's the lord of the titans, so he needs kingly treasure!  and maybe he beats up dragons and takes their stuff.  

ok, looks done otherwise... time for the next one!


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## Krishnath (Jan 8, 2004)

Who!


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## BOZ (Jan 8, 2004)

hmm, well we have the brothers prometheus and epimetheus, and three lesser-known titans; oceanus, crius, and coeus.


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## Krishnath (Jan 8, 2004)

Oceanus!

That means he needs the water subtype


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2004)

Yeah, Oceanus sounds like fun.


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## BOZ (Jan 8, 2004)

water subtype?  yeah, i guess we can do that.    all of his children are "ocean nymphs"


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

for starters:

*Titan, Greater, Oceanus*
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 49d8+882 (1,102 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 60 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 42 (-8 size, +7 Dex, +33 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 35
Base Attack/Grapple: +49/+84
Attack: Slam +60 melee (7d10+X)?
Full Attack: 2 slams +60 melee (7d10+X)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: create winds, create waves
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/epic, SR 36, control aquatic creatures
Saves: Fort +44 Ref +33 Will +35
Abilities: Str 48 Dex 24 Con 46 Int 40 Wis 28 Cha 28
Skills: 1196
Feats: 7+10?

Environment: Tarterian Depths of Carceri
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard?
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Oceanus is the master of the sea and all large bodies of water.

Oceanus’ temple is on the layer Porphathys of Carceri.  Oceanus is the father of the goddess Tyche, who sided with Zeus against the Titans.

Oceanus is 100 feet tall and weighs X pounds.

COMBAT 

from 1E D&DG:

OCEANUS (greater titan of the sea and water areas)
CLERIC/DRUID: 10th level in each
FIGHTER: 15fh level fighter

This greater titan always has a green shimmer around his body. He is able to raise hurricane winds with a motion of his hand and create waves of great force where there is water. All creatures of water of less than divine status must obey his commands, though Poseidon outranks him on the Prime Material Plane since the greater titans were defeated.


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## Krishnath (Jan 9, 2004)

First things first:

Add the water subtype (thus he can breathe both air and water without problem)
Give him a swim speed of 60'
Spells: Cast spells as 20th level Cleric with access to the Chaos, Evil, and Water domains?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2004)

Perhaps give him one or more of the following abilities?

-Vortex (like water elementals)
-Ramming (like ocean strider)
-Swamping (like leviathan)
-Water walking (so he can stand on the surface and be all ominous)


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## BOZ (Jan 9, 2004)

not cleric 10/druic 10?


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## Krishnath (Jan 10, 2004)

No, I think Cleric 20 is better, and since he is CE, he can't use druidic magic anyways, so that is kinda redundant.


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## BOZ (Jan 10, 2004)

who says?    just because he can't BE a druid doesn't mean he can't use druidic magic... besides, that is closer to nature, and he is a very nature-related being...


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## Krishnath (Jan 10, 2004)

Then have him cast as 20th level cleric and 20th level druid, PC's are more powerful now, might as well make the greater titans more powerful as well.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2004)

I'm a bit of a purist, so I'd vote for cleric 10/druid 10, although I can see Krishnath's point on general power inflation.  Did we inflate the other titans' spellcasting abilities?


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## BOZ (Jan 12, 2004)

i'm a purist too, (as much i can afford to be) if you hadn't noticed.  

well, we didn't for cronos, and atlas had no spellcasting...


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm a purist too, (as much i can afford to be) if you hadn't noticed.




I had.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, we didn't for cronos, and atlas had no spellcasting...




Then I think we should keep him at cleric 10/druid 10.  DMs can always slap 10 more levels of either (or both) class on him if they want.


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## Krishnath (Jan 13, 2004)

And I will


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## BOZ (Jan 13, 2004)

you would anyway!  LOL


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## Krishnath (Jan 13, 2004)

Well, yeah, but then again, I like to play lethal with my players...


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

Reviewing what we've got so far...

Titan, Greater, Oceanus
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Water)
Speed: 60 ft (10 squares), swim 60 ft.

Str bonus is +19, thus...
Attack: Slam +60 melee (7d10+19)
Full Attack: 2 slams +60 melee (7d10+19)

Damage reduction 20/epic? (He's closer to Cronus in power than Atlas)

Feats: 7+10 is correct

Treasure: Double standard sounds good.

Oceanus is 100 feet tall and weighs 750,000 pounds. (Same as Cronus)

Oceanus speaks Abyssal, Aquan, Common, Celestial, Draconic, Giant, and Undercommon (for the underground aquatic races, like kuo-toa). 

Skills:  Oceanus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line. 

Other Suggestions (Recap):
-Vortex (like water elementals)
-Ramming (like ocean strider)
-Swamping (like leviathan)
-Water walking (so he can stand on the surface and be all ominous)


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

Thank you sir, I do mean to get him going…



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Reviewing what we've got so far...
> 
> Titan, Greater, Oceanus
> Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Water)
> ...




I think I’ll lower that to 5d10 base.  That gives him a damage range of 24-67 (originally 7-70) which works just fine by me.  



> Damage reduction 20/epic? (He's closer to Cronus in power than Atlas)
> 
> Feats: 7+10 is correct
> 
> Treasure: Double standard sounds good.




Ok on all that.



> Oceanus is 100 feet tall and weighs 750,000 pounds. (Same as Cronus)




nope, I want cronny to be the heaviest.    occy can weigh 700,000.



> Oceanus speaks Abyssal, Aquan, Common, Celestial, Draconic, Giant, and Undercommon (for the underground aquatic races, like kuo-toa).
> 
> Skills:  Oceanus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line.




That’s all good, too.



> Other Suggestions (Recap):
> -Vortex (like water elementals)
> -Ramming (like ocean strider)
> -Swamping (like leviathan)
> -Water walking (so he can stand on the surface and be all ominous)




I like the vortex for sure.  In fact, that can replace the “create waves” as far as I’m concerned.  As to the others, I’ll look at them on a case by case basis.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I think I’ll lower that to 5d10 base.  That gives him a damage range of 24-67 (originally 7-70) which works just fine by me.




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> nope, I want cronny to be the heaviest.    occy can weigh 700,000.




Fair enough.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I like the vortex for sure.  In fact, that can replace the “create waves” as far as I’m concerned.  As to the others, I’ll look at them on a case by case basis.




Are you going to look 'em up, or would you like me to "plead my case"?


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

that would be faster than waiting for me to look them up.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

Fair enough.  Here they are, plus the capsize ability of the dragon turtle.  Of the three, I think swamping fits Occy best.

Capsize (Ex): A submerged dragon turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long. 

Ramming (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, an ocean strider can swim at up to quadruple speed (240 feet) and ram a waterborne target (such as a ship or another creature). To ram, the ocean strider must end its movement in the target's space. This attack deals 2d8+6 points of damage. If the target is a creature, it can attempt either an attack of opportunity or a Reflex save (DC 29) for half damage.

Upon ramming a ship, the ocean strider can make a Strength check to breach its hull, which causes the ship to sink in 1d10 minutes. The break DC varies with the type of vessel rammed, as follows: rowboat DC 20, keelboat DC 23, sailing ship or longship DC 25, warship DC 27, or galley DC 30. (See Chapter 5 of the DMG for information about ships). Regardless of the check result, every creature aboard must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC 15). Success means the creature takes 1d10 points of damage from being thrown about by the impact; failure means the creature is hurled overboard.

Swamping (Ex): Once every 12 rounds, a leviathan can create waves up to 40 feet high by rising from the water and then slamming its enormous tail flukes or head against the surface. This causes any sailing vessel within 300 feet to capsize if the character steering it fails a Profession (sailor) check (DC 15). A modifier applies to this check, based on type of ship, as follows: rowboat -2, warship +0, galley or keelboat +3, sailing ship +5, longship +7. Any creature flung into the water by a capsizing ship must succeed at a Swim check (DC 15) or immediately begin drowning.


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

i agree, we'll use that one.  

posting in homebrews...


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2004)

Besides adding swamping, here are some more suggestions:

Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/7/6/5/5/4; save DC 19 + spell level); 
0 – create water, detect magic, guidance, know direction, purify food and drink, read magic; 
1st – charm animal, detect animals or plants, entangle, longstrider, obscuring mist, speak with animals, summon nature's ally I; 
2nd – bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, chill metal, fog cloud, gust of wind; 
3rd – call lightning, quench, sleet storm, water breathing, wind wall;
4th – control water, dispel magic, freedom of movement, ice storm, scrying;
5th – call lightning storm, commune with nature, control winds, summon nature's ally V.

For control aquatic creatures, here are two possibilities:

Control Aquatic Creatures (Su): Oceanus can rebuke, command, or bolster water creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead.  He may use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier.

or

Control Aquatic Creatures (Su): Oceanus can use dominate monster (aquatic creatures only) at will.  Caster level 20th.


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## BOZ (Jan 16, 2004)

i like the second one better.


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## Krishnath (Jan 17, 2004)

Shorter to type out also 

Whats the DC on the Control Aquatic Creatures ability?


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

Cool.  DC should be 43 (10 + 24 [1/2 HD] +9 [Cha]).


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## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

how about this:
Control Aquatic Creatures (Su): Oceanus can use dominate monster  at will (Will save DC 43). This ability only affects creatures with the Aquatic or Water subtypes.  Caster level 20th.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

I like it, except as written, Occy cannot control porpoises or whales (no subtypes).


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## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

maybe instead "creatures with Swim speeds"? a bit more akward though.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

Yeah, that is akward.  How about...

Control Aquatic Creatures (Su): Oceanus can use dominate monster at will (Will save DC 43). This ability only affects creatures with the Aquatic or Water subtypes, as well as mammals with an aquatic environment entry. Caster level 20th.


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

One thought – he really doesn’t even need water walking.  All he has to do is get close to shore.  Most shorelines are not deeper than 100 feet, so he’ll stick out above the water and be pretty damned impressive to see as it is.  


Altering “swamping” a bit to make this:

Create Waves (Su): Oceanus can create waves up to X feet high through force of will.  This causes any sailing vessel within 300 feet to capsize if the character steering it fails a Profession (sailor) check (DC 15). A modifier applies to this check, based on type of ship, as follows: rowboat -2, warship +0, galley or keelboat +3, sailing ship +5, longship +7. Any creature flung into the water by a capsizing ship must succeed at a Swim check (DC 15) or immediately begin drowning.

Feel free to offer suggestions on changing the values or modifiers.


Also, I think I’ll ditch the Vortex power in favor of Control Winds.  But maybe we should amp it up a bit – make it more than just another spell-like ability.

Or maybe I’ll keep vortex and just leave control winds as a spell-like or spell.  Not sure yet.


----------



## Shade (Jan 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> One thought – he really doesn’t even need water walking.  All he has to do is get close to shore.  Most shorelines are not deeper than 100 feet, so he’ll stick out above the water and be pretty damned impressive to see as it is.  .




Good point.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Altering “swamping” a bit to make this:
> 
> Create Waves (Su): Oceanus can create waves up to X feet high through force of will.  This causes any sailing vessel within 300 feet to capsize if the character steering it fails a Profession (sailor) check (DC 15). A modifier applies to this check, based on type of ship, as follows: rowboat -2, warship +0, galley or keelboat +3, sailing ship +5, longship +7. Any creature flung into the water by a capsizing ship must succeed at a Swim check (DC 15) or immediately begin drowning.
> 
> Feel free to offer suggestions on changing the values or modifiers.




I like it.  You could stick to the 40 foot high waves that the leviathan has.  I don't know if wave height would make a difference.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, I think I’ll ditch the Vortex power in favor of Control Winds.  But maybe we should amp it up a bit – make it more than just another spell-like ability.
> 
> Or maybe I’ll keep vortex and just leave control winds as a spell-like or spell.  Not sure yet.




Yeah, after reviewing the vortex ability, I can't really see Occy turning himself into a whirlpool.  He could just summon water elementals to do it for him.


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

there ya go - summon water elementals.


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## Krishnath (Jan 22, 2004)

Good idea, how many? And are they elder water elementals?


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

I'd definitely vote for elders.   Maybe 1d4?   Here's a basic writeup for the ability.

Summon Elementals (Sp): Once per day Oceanus can automatically summon X elder water elementals. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.


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## BOZ (Jan 22, 2004)

also water mastery, i'm thinking.


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## BOZ (Jan 22, 2004)

1d3 elementals?


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

Water mastery sounds good.   I could see either 1d3 or 1d4 elder elementals for the summon ability.


----------



## Krishnath (Jan 23, 2004)

IMHO, 1d4+1 would be best (giving an average of 3 elementals summoned)


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## BOZ (Jan 26, 2004)

nah, 1d3 is good enough as far as i'm concerned.


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## BOZ (Jan 26, 2004)

I’m working on his spellcasting powers now (slow work day).  For his cleric domains, how about Air, Chaos, Evil, and Water?  I’d use Air and Water, or perhaps Chaos and Water as his favorite domains for the spell-list.


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## BOZ (Jan 26, 2004)

for instance, i've listed the spells for the domains (air, chaos, evil, water):

1 – obscuring mist, protection from law, protection from good, obscuring mist, 
2 – wind wall, shatter, desecrate, fog cloud, 
3 – gaseous form, magic circle against law, magic circle against good, water breathing, 
4 – air walk, chaos hammer, unholy blight, control water, 
5 – control winds, dispel law, dispel good, ice storm,


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## Krishnath (Jan 26, 2004)

In that case, I would go with:

_Obscuring mist_, _desecrate_, _gaseous form_, _control water]/i], and ice storm.

For his domain spells._


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## BOZ (Jan 26, 2004)

can he pick from more than 2 domains?  normal clerics can't...


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## BOZ (Jan 27, 2004)

Here’s what I came up with so far, suggestions are appreciated as always.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

I’m considering adding the following spell-like powers – any other suggestions?: 
bull's strength, control weather, fox's cunning, horrid wilting, mind fog, mirage arcana, whispering wind


Spells: Oceanus can cast divine spells as a 10th-level cleric. Oceanus has access to the following domains: (Air, Chaos, Evil, and Water?). He also casts spells as a 10th-level druid.  The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/8/7/6/6/5; save DC 19 + spell level); 
0 –  create water, detect poison, inflict minor wounds, mending, read magic, resistance; 
1st –  cause fear, curse water, doom, endure elements, obscuring mist*, protection from good, protection from law; 
2nd –  desecrate, eagle’s splendor, enthrall, fog cloud*, owl’s wisdom, shatter, silence; 
3rd –  gaseous form*, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against good, magic circle against law, water breathing, water walk;
4th –  air walk, chaos hammer*, control water, dismissal, divine power, sending;
5th – control winds*, dispel good, dispel law, greater command, summon monster V.
*Domain spell. Domains: Air and Water?.

Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/7/6/5/5/4; save DC 19 + spell level); 
0 – create water, detect magic, flare, guidance, know direction, purify food and drink; 
1st – charm animal, detect animals or plants, entangle, longstrider, magic fang, speak with animals, summon nature's ally I; 
2nd – bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, chill metal, fog cloud, gust of wind; 
3rd – call lightning, plant growth, quench, sleet storm, wind wall;
4th – control water, dispel magic, freedom of movement, ice storm, scrying, summon nature’s ally IV;
5th – baleful polymorph, call lightning storm, commune with nature, summon nature's ally V.


----------



## Shade (Jan 27, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Here’s what I came up with so far, suggestions are appreciated as always.
> 
> Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.




Fire storm and meteor swarm don't really seem to fit.  Otherwise, I like 'em.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m considering adding the following spell-like powers – any other suggestions?:
> bull's strength, control weather, fox's cunning, horrid wilting, mind fog, mirage arcana, whispering wind




I like all of them except horrid wilting for Occy.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Spells: Oceanus can cast divine spells as a 10th-level cleric. Oceanus has access to the following domains: (Air, Chaos, Evil, and Water?). He also casts spells as a 10th-level druid.  The save DCs are Wisdom-based.




I like Air and Water over the other two domains.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/8/7/6/6/5; save DC 19 + spell level);
> 0 –  create water, detect poison, inflict minor wounds, mending, read magic, resistance;
> 1st –  cause fear, curse water, doom, endure elements, obscuring mist*, protection from good, protection from law;
> 2nd –  desecrate, eagle’s splendor, enthrall, fog cloud*, owl’s wisdom, shatter, silence;
> ...




Should his spells prepared be 6/8+1/7+1/6+1/6+1/5+1 or  6/7+1/6+1/5+1/5+1/4+1.  If it is the former, you are short one spell at each level over 0.  If not, I'd recommend listing it out as the latter, since that seems to be the way to denote domain spells.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/7/6/5/5/4; save DC 19 + spell level);
> 0 – create water, detect magic, flare, guidance, know direction, purify food and drink;
> 1st – charm animal, detect animals or plants, entangle, longstrider, magic fang, speak with animals, summon nature's ally I;
> 2nd – bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, chill metal, fog cloud, gust of wind;
> ...




You have one too many 4th-level spells.   I'd recommend ditching summon nature’s ally IV.


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## BOZ (Jan 27, 2004)

actually, domain spells in the MM are listed with the +1 added to the other number, and in the spell list all spells are listed including the domain spells which are denoted with an asterisk.  go and take a look, you'll see what i mean.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2004)

Well I'll be...


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## BOZ (Jan 27, 2004)

so then the spells are otherwise ok as i posted above?  any more suggestions for spell-like abilities or do you think we have a good list?


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2004)

The lists look good otherwise.  I think that is enough spell-likes.


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## BOZ (Jan 27, 2004)

ok, going to gather it all together and update in homebrews shortly (be patient).


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

DC's for spell-likes are 10 + Cha mod (9) + spell level?

if so, that would be as follows, correct?:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC 23), bull's strength, chain lightning (DC 25), charm monster (DC 23), cure critical wounds (DC 23), deeper darkness, fox's cunning, greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 24), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, mind fog (DC 24), mirage arcana (DC 24), persistent image (DC 24), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC 23), whispering wind; 3/day – control weather, etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC 26); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC 28), gate, maze, plane shift, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Krishnath (Jan 28, 2004)

Correct, and it looks good.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

Oceanus is coming along great...nice pic by the way.    

Suggested Feats: Ability Focus (control aquatic creatures), Augment Summoning, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Empower Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Great Cleave, Improved Critical (slam), Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater teleport), Track, Weapon Focus (slam) 

Suggested Epic feats: Devastating Critical (slam), Fast Healing, Improved Darkvision, Legendary Tracker, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Spellcasting Harrier

This includes too many nonepic and not enough epic feats.  I thought some of the epic slots were worth sacrificing for some nonepic feats.   Track and Legendary Tracker could be dumped for additional Fast Healing or perhaps Energy Resistance epic feats.  I just thought it would be cool to have Oceanus be able to track creatures across or underwater.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

ok, i'll consider those feats.

any ideas for skills other than the obvious Swim?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2004)

I'd like to see Handle Animal, Knowledge (nature), and Survival to fit his druidic/force of nature aspect.


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## BOZ (Jan 28, 2004)

good show, old sport.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

how's about this for a skill list?

Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim

Also possibly: Craft (shipmaking??), Knowledge (religion, the planes), Perform (sing, wind instruments)


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Good show yourself, ol' chap.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

you like those last few add-ons?


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2004)

Yes I do.  The only one I was iffy on was Craft (shipmaking), unless that helps him destroy them.


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## BOZ (Jan 29, 2004)

yer right, we'll nix the craft and keep the rest.


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

ok, updated him.  how we lookin?    i just decided to go with the feat suggestions shade made, since i couldn't think of anything better.


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## Krishnath (Jan 30, 2004)

Looks good.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

I think he's finished except for the Challenge Rating.   CR 33?


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

33 sounds good.  it's between altas and cronus, where i think he should be.  

i'll give him another once over, and decide if there's anything important i've forgotten.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

ok, he is officially done (and updated - just make sure i didn't miss anything!)

who next?  coeus, crius, prometheus, or epimetheus?


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## Krishnath (Feb 1, 2004)

Prometheus I think would be the logical choice.


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## Filby (Feb 1, 2004)

My vote's for Prometheus, too. We could use an epic good guy after all this evil.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

prometheus, logical, get it?


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

I don't care who we convert next, but I vote we do Epimetheus last.

He is an afterthought, after all.


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## BOZ (Feb 2, 2004)

Ok, Prometheus it is then.  You’ll notice that he was given more class levels than the rest of the titans, no doubt to account for his superior mental abilities.  I do recommend putting a cap on it though; maybe only just Wiz 15 and Clr 13 for spellcasting, and some class abilities from ranger, rogue, and bard.


*Titan, Greater, Prometheus*
Colossal Outsider (Extraplanar, Good)
Hit Dice: 48d8+816 (1,032 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft (10 squares) (fly 60 ft?)
Armor Class: 41 (-8 size, +7 Dex, +32 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 34
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+X
Attack: Slam +58 melee (5d10+X)?
Full Attack: 2 slams +58 melee (5d10+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/epic, SR 36, clay of creation, (fast healing/regeneration)
Saves: Fort +43 Ref +33 Will +40
Abilities: Str 47 Dex 24 Con 45 Int 40 Wis 38 Cha 35
Skills: X (knowledges of course)
Feats: X

Environment: Olympian Glades of Arborea
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: ?
Alignment: Always neutral good
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Prometheus is a wise titan, whose name means “forethought.”  He is the son of the Titan Iapetus and the nymph Clymene, and is the brother of the Titans Atlas and Epimetheus.

Prometheus dwells among the gods in the realm of Olympus.

Prometheus is 100 feet tall and weighs (725,000?) pounds.

COMBAT 


CLERIC/DRUID: 13th in each
FIGHTER: 16th level ranger
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 15th level magic-user
THIEF/ASSASSIN: 10th level thief
MONK/BARD: 10th level bard

Prometheus is the son of lapetus and Clymene, and the brother of Atlas and Epimetheus. When the gods revolted against the titans, Prometheus sided with the gods since he correctly deduced the outcome of the struggle. Prometheus is credited with making the first man and woman from clay, and he has made it his task to help mankind whenever possible. Prometheus taught humans many of the civilized arts, including the medicinal use of plants, cultivation of grains, and domestication of wild animals. Prometheus stole fire from the sun and gave it to humankind. For this affront, Zeus ordered Prometheus chained to a mountain top where his perpetually-regenerating liver was torn out afresh each day by a griffonvulture. Zeus repented after 30 years and allowed Heracles to free Prometheus. After he was freed, Prometheus was invited to Olympus to join the gods.
Prometheus is the only titan worshiped as a god. As a token of his punishment, Zeus ordered Prometheus to wear a ring made from his chains. Prometheus' clerics also wear an iron ring set with a chip of stone supposedly from the mountain where Prometheus was chained. Prometheus expects his clerics to be self-reliant, but not self-centered. Trickery and cunning are fair weapons but only if the end serves the human race as a whole. Prometheus will side with faithful clerics against any force, even the most powerful god, but he takes a dim view of clerics calling upon him unless they have absolutely no chance of survival otherwise. The clerics of Prometheus will take any available opportunity to kill a griffon. They will also do all in their power to prevent humans from attacking any titan, and will actually side with Atlas or Epimetheus if they see either titan under attack.
Prometheus can create any mortal creature from clay in 2 melee rounds. This creature will serve him until it dies, though Prometheus usually sets it free after a specific service. In return for extraordinary service by one of his clerics, Prometheus may reward the cleric with a companion creature suitable to the cleric's level of experience.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Since Prometheus is "forethought", perhaps we could give him an insight bonus to AC?

Suggested additional spell-likes:   foresight, moment of prescience, true strike.

Some of the rogue abilities seem a nice fit for "forethought":  evasion, improved evasion, opportunist, and trap sense.

Most ranger and bard abilities don't seem a good fit, although Favored Enemy (griffon) would be humorous.


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## BOZ (Feb 4, 2004)

hey, sounds cool to me.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I don't care who we convert next, but I vote we do Epimetheus last.
> 
> He is an afterthought, after all.




and i thought about this - we really should have done epimetheus first and prometheus last.  think about it.  we could have made all of our mistakes on epimetheus, only really being able to fix him as an afterthought.  and doing prometheus last would allow us to benefit from the wisdom we learned on doing the others.    heheh...


----------



## Shade (Feb 4, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and i thought about this - we really should have done epimetheus first and prometheus last.  think about it.  we could have made all of our mistakes on epimetheus, only really being able to fix him as an afterthought.  and doing prometheus last would allow us to benefit from the wisdom we learned on doing the others.    heheh...




Good point!


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## Krishnath (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and i thought about this - we really should have done epimetheus first and prometheus last.  think about it.  we could have made all of our mistakes on epimetheus, only really being able to fix him as an afterthought.  and doing prometheus last would allow us to benefit from the wisdom we learned on doing the others.    heheh...




ROFL


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2004)

Filling in some of the blanks...

Grapple bonus +81
Slam damage:  5d10+25
Skills:  1173 total
Feats 7 nonepic, 10 epic


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

i like this ability.  both he and his brother epimetheus can do this:

"Prometheus can create any mortal creature from clay in 2 melee rounds. This creature will serve him until it dies, though Prometheus usually sets it free after a specific service. In return for extraordinary service by one of his clerics, Prometheus may reward the cleric with a companion creature suitable to the cleric's level of experience."


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

I like it to.   How do we want to list it?


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2004)

that is a wonderful question.  wish i had an answer for it.  

maybe something like stone to flesh?  and he would have Craft (sculpting) up the wazoo.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2004)

Yeah, definitely maxxed out ranks in Craft (sculpting).

Here's my take on the ability...

Creation (Su):  At will, as a full-round action, Prometheus can shape clay into the form of any nonunique creature of the following types:  Animal, Aberration, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Plant, or Vermin.  The sculpture becomes a living creature with average statistics for its type.  This creature will serve him until it dies, though Prometheus usually sets it free after a specific service. In return for extraordinary service by one of his clerics, Prometheus may reward the cleric with a companion creature suitable to the cleric's level of experience.

I shortened it to a full-round action, so it matched a summon monster spell, but it could be longer.    I thought about adding a Craft (sculpting) check, but even a DC of 50 would be an automatic result for him if he maxxed out his ranks.

I also thought we might set a limit, like animate dead:

Prometheus can control only X HD worth of such creatures at a given time. If he exceeds this number, all the newly created creatures fall under his control, and any excess creatures from previous castings become uncontrolled. (Prometheus chooses which creatures are released.)


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2004)

How about if we turn this statement: “Prometheus can shape clay into the form of any non-unique creature of the following types: Animal, Aberration, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Plant, or Vermin.” 

into this: “Prometheus can shape clay into the form of any living non-unique creature that is not of extraplanar origin.”


Let’s examine Prometheus’ class-related powers.  Giving him all of this would make him seriously overpowered in my opinion.  Shade had a couple of suggestions above, but let’s look at the whole picture to really examine what’s going on with Prometheus.

He would have 13th level cleric, 13th level druid, and 15th level wizard spellcasting powers.  I don’t think he needs that much!  Maybe just two of those would be fine.  Additionally, as a 16th level ranger and a 10th level bard, he would have even more spells – but I think he’ll be just fine without those.

As I said, as a 16th-level ranger, that would give him a lot of stuff:

Favored Enemy (would have 4 by then)
Track: A ranger gains Track as a bonus feat.
Wild Empathy 
Combat Style 
Endurance: A ranger gains Endurance as a bonus feat at 3rd level.
Animal Companion (probably not necessary, as he can create any companion he wants)
Improved Combat Style
Woodland Stride
Swift Tracker 
Evasion 
Combat Style Mastery
Camouflage

And a bunch of things as 13th-level druid:
Animal Companion (same as ranger)
Nature Sense (Ex): A druid gains a +2 bonus on Knowledge (nature) and Survival checks.
Wild Empathy (same as ranger)
Woodland Stride (same as ranger)
Trackless Step
Resist Nature’s Lure
Wild Shape
Venom Immunity (Ex): At 9th level, a druid gains immunity to all poisons. 
A Thousand Faces (Su): At 13th level, a druid gains the ability to change her appearance at will, as if using the alter self spell, but only while in her normal form.

And as 10th-level bard:
Bardic Knowledge
Bardic Music: Countersong, Fascinate, Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Suggestion, Inspire Greatness

And as a 10th-level rogue:
Sneak Attack: +5d6
Trapfinding
Evasion (same as ranger)
Trap Sense
Uncanny Dodge
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Special Abilities (1)


And turning undead as a 13th-level cleric.

Lots of stuff.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> How about if we turn this statement: “Prometheus can shape clay into the form of any non-unique creature of the following types: Animal, Aberration, Dragon, Fey, Giant, Humanoid, Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Ooze, Plant, or Vermin.”
> 
> into this: “Prometheus can shape clay into the form of any living non-unique creature that is not of extraplanar origin.”




Much better.   You qualify for the Wordsmith prestige class.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

further comments on the class-ability stuff?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

Here's what I'd keep...


Spellcasting ability of 13th level cleric and 15th level wizard.
Improved Evasion
Opportunist
Improved Uncanny Dodge

Beyond the spellcasting, I like these abilities since they could be attributed to "foresight".  Trap detection would work too, but seems like it would never come up in-game.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

Prometheus needs some kind of healing powers.  After all, his liver could regenerate every day.  

I’ll look through the class-related abilities more myself when I have some time to do so.


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## Filby (Feb 19, 2004)

Well, the liver thing was really part of his torment... I imagine that when he was freed, Zeus took that power away.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

the question is, did he give him that regenerating quality in the first place?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

If we were to give him regeneration, what attack forms would deal lethal damage?


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

fast healing then?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Yeah, but fast healing doesn't account for regrowing parts.   I'd stick with regeneration, and maybe make him vulnerable to the same types of damage that clear his damage reduction.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

epic weapons?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Hmmm....how about "Prometheus takes lethal damage from evil weapons and the bite attacks of gryphons."


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL  maybe not so far-fetched.    or maybe just any bite attacks.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

nah, because he heals the damage the gryphon does.    so, regen 5?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

Regen 5 sounds good.   How's this for the entry?

Regeneration (Ex): Prometheus takes damage from epic evil-aligned weapons and from spells and effects with the evil descriptor.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

groovin.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

What are we lookin' at for spell-likes for this guy?  I'm thinking he should have some conjuration (creation) type powers and divinations.

(I'm hoping to help move the remaining titans along so we can get to Jormungandr, paving way for the Midgard linnorm).


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

we can do jormy in between the titans and the devil lords.  

as for prometheus, his spell-likes should look a lot different than most of the rest of these guys.  for one thing, besides him being good, there will be much less emphasis on chaos... let me see if i can get a basic list put together today before i go home.


----------



## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we can do jormy in between the titans and the devil lords.




That has to be one of the greatest sentences in the history of monster discussion.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> as for prometheus, his spell-likes should look a lot different than most of the rest of these guys.  for one thing, besides him being good, there will be much less emphasis on chaos... let me see if i can get a basic list put together today before i go home.




True, very true.  Sounds like a plan.


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> That has to be one of the greatest sentences in the history of monster discussion.




it's not what it sounds like - there's no way we would survive!


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## BOZ (Feb 20, 2004)

Here are the base spell-likes:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), daylight, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), holy smite (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, remove curse (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – gate, greater restoration, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


Shade gave a few preferences earlier regarding his “forethought” aspect.  Since he is also commonly associated with fire, I think some fire-related powers would make sense too.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2004)

Remove word of chaos.  As you mentioned, Promie's not affiliated with chaos.

Here are the additional spell-likes I recommended ealier (so no one has to scroll back): foresight, moment of prescience, true strike.

Fire-related powers are a good idea.  Produce flame and pyrotechnics seem like good ones.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

Got to thinking about promy’s class abilities.  He should have a few, and probably at least something to represent each class, but not a whole bunch of things.

In addition to what shade promoted earlier (improved evasion, improved uncanny dodge, and opportunist, though I may drop one of these) from the rogue class, we might consider:

Wild Empathy and/or Woodland Stride – these would tie him in with the ranger and druid classes.

Bard – I could see maybe giving him one bardic music aspect, and some decent Perform skills.

Just remember – these titans are not completely one-dimensional and should have more than one aspect to them.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Oooh...3D Titans.  Do we need special glasses to view them?   

Wild Empathy and Woodland Stride sound good.   For bardic abilities, inspire competence seems a good fit, since Promy likes to help people achieve great things.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

Wonnderfulll!


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use song or poetics to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear the bard sing. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears the bard sing and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.
Wild Empathy (Ex): A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.
The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.
Woodland Stride (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a druid may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at her normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect her.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): A rogue of 8th level or higher can no longer be flanked.
This defense denies another rogue the ability to sneak attack the character by flanking her, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than the target does.
If a character already has uncanny dodge (see above) from a second class, the character automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead, and the levels from the classes that grant uncanny dodge stack to determine the minimum rogue level required to flank the character.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while the rogue still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth she henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Took that from the SRD, and a bit sloppy, made into this (critique!):

Inspire Courage (Su): Using any of his Perform skills, Prometheus can inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to hear Prometheus. The effect lasts for as long as the ally hears Prometheus and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +(2)? morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +(2)? morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.
Wild Empathy (Ex): Prometheus can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. Prometheus rolls 1d20 and adds his Hit Dice? (48) and his Charisma modifier (+12) to determine the wild empathy check result.
The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
Prometheus can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but he takes a –4 penalty on the check.
Woodland Stride (Ex): Prometheus may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at his normal speed and without taking damage or suffering any other impairment. However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that have been magically manipulated to impede motion still affect him.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Prometheus cannot be flanked.  This defense denies a rogue the ability to sneak attack Prometheus by flanking him, unless the attacker has at least four more rogue levels than Prometheus has Hit Dice.
Improved Evasion (Ex): This ability works like evasion, except that while Prometheus still takes no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks henceforth he henceforth takes only half damage on a failed save. If Prometheus is helpless he does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Just curious, but why did you pick inspire courage instead of inspire competence?

Otherwise, it all looks good to me.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

because "duh", that's why.  

try this instead:

Inspire Competence (Su): Prometheus can use any of his Perform skills to help an ally succeed at a task. The ally must be within 30 feet and able to see and hear Prometheus. Prometheus must also be able to see the ally.
The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as he or she continues to hear Prometheus’ performance. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible. The effect lasts as long as Prometheus concentrates, up to a maximum of 2 minutes. Prometheus can’t inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability.


i think some of those writeups are a bit sloppy though.  i'm going to do some research to see if i can make them "feel" better.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

and i fixed these up, thanks to the dryad and astral deva, respectively:

Wild Empathy (Ex): This power works like the druid’s wild empathy class feature.  Prometheus adds a +30 competence bonus (guessing!) and his Charisma modifier (+12) to the 1d20 roll to determine the wild empathy check result.

Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Prometheus retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed, and he cannot be flanked except by a rogue of at least 52nd level.  He can flank characters with the uncanny dodge ability as if he were a 48th-level rogue.

and this one from looking at what we gave Atlas:
Improved Evasion (Ex): If Prometheus makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, he instead takes no damage, and takes only half damage on a failed save. If helpless, Prometheus does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Much prettier.  Nice work!


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

posting in homebrews just to show what he's looking like now...


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## Shade (Feb 25, 2004)

Looking good so far.   For clay of creation, I'd suggest making it 50 HD worth of controlled creatures.  I based this on animate dead, assuming a caster level of 25 for this ability, the same caster level as his spell-like abilities.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

sounds good.    and that's 50 HD, not including those creatures he has set free or given to other beings, so that's more than enough.

i want to wrap up prommy, so i would like to work on his spellcasting this week. (today if possible)  here is the setup, feel free to shout out some suggestions on spells he may have prepared, and such.

Spells: Prometheus can cast divine spells as a 13th-level cleric. Prometheus has access to the following domains: (Good, Fire). The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/10/10/8/8/7/6/4; save DC 24 + spell level): 
0 – ;  
1st –  ;  
2nd –  ;
3rd –  ; 
4th –  ; 
5th –  ;
6th – ;
7th – .
*Domain spell. 

Spells: Prometheus can cast arcane spells as a 15th-level wizard (or sorcerer?). 

He has access to the following spells: 0 – acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue; 
1st –  ; 
2nd –  ; 
3rd –  ; 
4th –  ; 
5th –  ;
6th – ;
7th – ;
8th – . The save DCs are Intelligence-based.

Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/8/8/8/7/7/6/5/3; save DC 25 + spell level); 
0 –  ; 
1st –  ; 
2nd –  ; 
3rd –  ; 
4th –  ; 
5th –  ;
6th – ;
7th – ;
8th – .


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## Shade (Feb 25, 2004)

Here's my take on the cleric spells prepared:


Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/10/10/8/8/7/6/4; save DC 24 + spell level): 
0 – create water, detect magic, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic; 
1st – Bless (x2), bless water, burning hands*, detect evil, divine favor, entropic shield, protection from evil, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith; 
2nd – Aid, augury, bear's endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, make whole, owl's wisdom, produce flame*, shield other, silence, status;
3rd – Continual flame, daylight, helping hand, locate object, prayer, resist energy*, searing light, stone shape, water walk; 
4th – Air walk, death ward, dimensional anchor, dismissal, divination, freedom of movement, holy smite*, sending, tongues; 
5th – Commune, dispel evil, fire shield*, flame strike, mass cure light wounds, plane shift, scrying, true seeing;
6th – Banishment, blade barrier*, greater dispel magic, heal, heroes' feast, mass cure moderate wounds, wind walk;
7th – Fire storm*, holy word, mass cure critical wounds, regenerate, ressurection.
*Domain spell.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

D’oh!  Forgot he needs 2 more domains to pick from.  How about Knowledge, and then Healing, Luck, or Protection?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2004)

I like Knowledge and Protection.   If you agree, I'd revise the cleric spells prepared as follows:

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/10/10/8/8/7/6/4; save DC 24 + spell level): 
0 – create water, detect magic, light, mending, purify food and drink, read magic; 
1st – Bless (x2), bless water, burning hands*, detect evil, divine favor, entropic shield, protection from evil, remove fear, sanctuary, shield of faith; 
2nd – Aid, augury, bear's endurance, bull's strength, eagle's splendor, make whole, owl's wisdom, produce flame*, shield other, silence, status;
3rd – Clairaudience/clairvoyance*, continual flame, daylight, helping hand, locate object, prayer, searing light, stone shape, water walk; 
4th – Air walk, death ward, dimensional anchor, dismissal, divination, freedom of movement, holy smite*, sending, tongues; 
5th – Commune, dispel evil, fire shield*, flame strike, mass cure light wounds, plane shift, scrying, true seeing;
6th – Banishment, blade barrier*, greater dispel magic, heal, heroes' feast, mass cure moderate wounds, wind walk;
7th – Fire storm*, holy word, mass cure critical wounds, regenerate, ressurection.
*Domain spell.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

i might as well just use those.    do you think we should go with sorcerer or wizard?  i could see him going either way.  he's most likely studious enough to be a Wiz, but i could see him just tapping into the energy like a Sor.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2004)

I agree that he could go either way.  I'm leaning towards wizard, though, as he seems like he'd spend alot of time in study.


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## Krishnath (Feb 27, 2004)

Wizard seems like the best option.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

OK, spellbook it is.


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## BOZ (Feb 28, 2004)

For his “spellbook”, how about something like this?    (I’m trying not to duplicate anything already in his spell-like ability list – we can probably remove some but not necessarily all which are also in the cleric list)

He has access to the following spells: 0 – acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue; 
1st –  alarm, burning hands, detect undead, feather fall, hypnotism, identify, magic missile, obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement; 
2nd –  bear’s endurance, continual flame, detect thoughts, flaming sphere, fox’s cunning, glitterdust, mirror image, owl’s wisdom, protection from arrows, scorching ray, see invisibility, shatter, Tasha’s hideous laughter, touch of idiocy, web; 
3rd –  clairaudience/clairvoyance, deep slumber, fireball, flame arrow, halt undead, haste, magic circle against evil, nondetection, suggestion, tongues; 
4th –  fire shield, locate creature, mass enlarge person, mass reduce person, shout, solid fog, stoneskin, wall of fire; 
5th –  baleful polymorph, break enchantment, dominate person, dream, feeblemind, permanency, wall of force;
6th – antimagic field, contingency, disintegrate, geas/quest, greater heroism, mass bull’s strength, mass suggestion, mislead, true seeing;
7th – banishment, delayed blast fireball, greater arcane sight, greater scrying, greater teleport, insanity, limited wish, spell turning, vision;
8th – Bigby’s grasping hand, discern location, incendiary cloud, Otto’s irresistible dance, protection from spells, summon monster VIII, sunburst. The save DCs are Intelligence-based.


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## Krishnath (Feb 28, 2004)

Looks pretty good, one suggestion though, I suggest you replace _flame arrow_ with something that is a little more useful to him, such as _displacement_ or _blink_, or even _gaseous form_.


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2004)

It looks good.  I agree with Krishnath regarding _flame arrow_; of the suggestions, I think _displacement _is the best fit.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

Eh, I tossed all three in there – why not?  

What’s left, skills and feats?

Skills: (1173) Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (at least scultpting, maybe alchemy too), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (most or all of them?), Listen, Perform (at least one – oratory, sing, maybe stringed), Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot

Possibly also: Appraise, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device

Feats: 7+10 epic  (ideas: Empower/Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Epic Will, Improved Darkvision, Alertness, Combat Expertise, Diligent, Improved Initiative, Investigator, Negotiator, some metamagic or item creation feats


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Eh, I tossed all three in there – why not?



 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: (1173) Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Craft (at least scultpting, maybe alchemy too), Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Jump, Knowledge (most or all of them?), Listen, Perform (at least one – oratory, sing, maybe stringed), Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot



Of the Knowledge skills, definitely arcana, local, and religion.  Max out Sense Motive, too.   I'm not sure which Perform would fit him best, although oratory sounds appropriate if nothing else.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Possibly also: Appraise, Disguise, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Profession, Sleight of Hand, Use Magic Device



Definitely Use Magic Device.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Feats: 7+10 epic (ideas: Empower/Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Epic Will, Improved Darkvision, Alertness, Combat Expertise, Diligent, Improved Initiative, Investigator, Negotiator, some metamagic or item creation feats



All those are good.  Maybe also Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]) and Epic Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting])?  Superior Initiative would also work well with "forethought".   Also, Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Epic Wondrous Item?


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

How about the following for skill ranks:

Prometheus: Abilities: Str 47 Dex 24 Con 45 Int 40 Wis 38 Cha 35
Skills: Appraise +40, Balance +23, Bluff +27, Climb +30, Concentration +43, Craft (alchemy) +35, Craft (sculpting) +55, Decipher Script +43, Diplomacy +47, Gather Information +40, Heal +42, Jump +30, Knowledge (arcana) +55, Knowledge (geography) +40, Knowledge (history) +45, Knowledge (local) +50, Knowledge (nature) +40, Knowledge  (nobility and royalty) +35, Knowledge (religion) +40, Knowledge (the planes) +40, Listen +35, Perform (oratory) +45, Perform (sing) +35, Perform (string instruments) +40, Search +35, Sense Motive +55, Spellcraft +53, Spot +35, Use Magic Device +40


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

Does that actually add up to 1173?  It seems kinda low, but once you clear about 800 its hard to keep up.   

Also, did you remember the +4 bonus to Jump for having a land speed of 40 feet?


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

It adds up exactly, yes.    how does the arrangement look?

Thanks for reminding me about the Jump speed.  I’m sure I forgot that on the other titans!


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> It adds up exactly, yes.  how does the arrangement look?



The arrangement looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Thanks for reminding me about the Jump speed. I’m sure I forgot that on the other titans!



I may have reminded you on them as well.  It's my latest nitpick.


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

updating...


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

Here's the save DCs for the spell-likes.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – chain lightning (DC 28), charm monster (DC 26), cure critical wounds (DC 26), daylight, fire storm (DC 30), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 27), holy smite (DC 26), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC 27), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), produce flame, protection from energy, pyrotechnics (DC 24), read magic, remove curse (DC 26), true strike; 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX; 1/day – foresight, gate, greater restoration, maze, meteor swarm (DC 31), moment of prescience, plane shift, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

CR 32?  

Treasure:  Double coins, double goods, triple items?


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

how's dat?

Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/8/8/8/7/7/6/5/3; save DC 25 + spell level);
0 – disrupt undead, ghost sound, mending, prestidigitation; 
1st – burning hands, feather fall, hypnotism, identify, magic missile (x2), obscuring mist, ray of enfeeblement; 
2nd – continual flame, detect thoughts, mirror image, owl’s wisdom (x2), protection from arrows, see invisibility, Tasha’s hideous laughter; 
3rd – blink, clairaudience/clairvoyance, deep slumber, fireball, gaseous form, magic circle against evil, nondetection, tongues; 
4th – fire shield, locate creature, mass enlarge person, mass reduce person, shout, solid fog, stoneskin; 
5th – baleful polymorph, break enchantment, dominate person, dream, feeblemind, permanency, wall of force;
6th – antimagic field, disintegrate, greater heroism, mass bull’s strength, mislead, true seeing;
7th – banishment, greater arcane sight, greater teleport, insanity, spell turning;
8th – Bigby’s grasping hand, discern location, protection from spells. 

all that's really left is feats, let me think for a moment...


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

eh?

Feats: Alertness, Combat Expertise, Craft Wondrous Item, Diligent, Empower Spell-Like Ability (charm monster?), Improved Initiative, Investigator, Magical Aptitude, Negotiator, Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater teleport?)
Epic Feats: Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Epic Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Epic Fortitude, Epic Will, Improved Darkvision, Superior Initiative


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

The spells look good.

For feats, how about Quicken Spell-Like Ability (_true strike_) instead of Empower Spell-Like Ability (charm monster)?   I like the suggestion of Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater teleport) as well.  Also, how about Group Inspiration (might as well take advantage of that inspire competence ability) instead of Investigator or Diligent?  Let's also give him Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat to go along with his wizard levels. I like all the rest that you have listed.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

Allright, lookin good!

What else do we need?  DR, should it be 20/epic?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

That puts him on a par with Oceanus, so yes.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

OK, updating... have one last look at him and the other 9 monsters, and if all is well i will post them all by the end of the weekend.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

I did have to go back and fix the jump bonuses on the other 3 titans – did not get them right before.  

As for prommy, one last thing I forgot – duh – how about his flight maneuverability?  Is perfect OK?  It’s what we gave atlas…


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

Yep.  He should at least be as maneuverable as Atlas.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

cool.  then, would you say he looks done now?


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

Yes I would.


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

groovy, i'll waste no time setting this batch of 10 up to be in the CC!


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

ok, we're saving epimetheus till last... coeus or crius now?  they're both fairly minor among the titans.  crius is the more powerful of the two, whereas coeus ties epimetheus for the weakest of the greater titans.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2004)

Crius sounds like fun, due to his gravity powers.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

you want it, you got it.  


*Titan, Greater, Crius*
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 49d8+833 (1,053 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 41 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +33 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 35
Base Attack/Grapple: +49/+84
Attack: Slam +60 melee (5d8+19)
Full Attack: 2 slams +60 melee (5d8+19)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: manipulate gravity, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: damage reduction 20?/epic, darkvision 120 ft, spell resistance 36
Saves: Fort +43 Ref +32 Will +39
Abilities: Str 48 Dex 23 Con 44 Int 38 Wis 37 Cha 31
Skills: 1144
Feats: 7+10 epic?

Environment: Tarterian Depths of Carceri
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 32 or 33?
Treasure: Double standard?
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Crius is the master of gravity and density in physical matter.

Crius’ temple is on the layer Colothys of Carceri.

Crius is 100 feet tall and weighs X pounds. (should actually be the heaviest, don’t ya think?)

COMBAT 


CLERIC/DRUID: 15th level cleric
FIGHTER: 16th level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 15th level magic-user

Crius can increase the weight of objects at will, and he can make things weightless. He is able to make any one non-living object too heavy to lift for a period of 1-4 melee rounds; this power can be increased to permanency if the titan is allowed to work on the object for one full turn (saving throw vs. the permanency applicable).
In battle, the titan creates a field of gravity that causes anything launched at him of a physical nature (arrows, spears, etc.) to fall short. All attackers will be at —4 on their chances to hit and —1 on their armor classes while in this field. Likewise, dexterity bonuses do not apply.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2004)

Yep, he should be the heaviest.

Should we give him the spellcasting ability of both 15th-level cleric/druid and 15th-level sorcerer/wizard?


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

sure, since he doesn't have any other class-related powers.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2004)

Cool.  I vote druid and sorcerer.  He strikes me as more of a natural-powered guy.

We might want to check out the gravorg in the MM2 for some insight into the gravity power.


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## BOZ (Mar 5, 2004)

sounds gouda.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2004)

That was cheesy.


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## Filby (Mar 6, 2004)

I recall that Crius also had stats in 2E, in a Planescape book of short adventures... I'd point you to which book it was, but I can't remember the title...


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## BOZ (Mar 6, 2004)

could someone PLEASE find that?


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## BOZ (Mar 6, 2004)

easily solved, actually.   http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79621


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## Filby (Mar 6, 2004)

That was it!

Cool. 8)


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

excellent.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

BTW, that adventure doesn't say a whole lot about crius that we didn't already know.  it does, however, talk about his home and how he behaves in it, and that is pretty interesting.  

looking at the gravorg to see how we can make use of its powers...


Edit: D'oh!  while thinking about crius, i noticed that i forgot to list prometheus' languages, and i forgot the "natural weapons count as epic for DR" line from some of the of titans - time to edit!  should we give more than Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant to prommy?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

Man, we're slipping.   

I should have caught that, too, since languages are one of my pet peeves.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

i'm thinking mr. wisdom should have more languages than the standard list.  maybe sylvan, maybe some of the elemental languages... ?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

Sounds good.  I could definitely see Auran and Terran of the elemental tongues.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

how about Ignan and Terran instead?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

That is fine.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

back to crius...

Should we give him tremorsense?

Finally took a look at the Gravorg – not sure how much there is to use for Crius.  It has reverse gravity, which we can give to him as an at-will spell-like power, or a spell, or whatnot.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

Sure, tremorsense sounds kinda gravity-related.   Earth mastery might also go well with the gravity theme.

I think he should have some sort of at-will control gravity ability.  Here's a start, expanding on the gravorg's power...

*Control Gravity (Sp):* At will, Crius can produce an effect like that of a _reverse gravity_ spell (caster level Xth; Reflex save DC X), except that the range is X feet and it affects an area of up to X 10-foot cubes. Crius simply stacks the cubes to reach a ceiling or other overhang, then uses any remaining area to disrupt the prey's companions.

Alternatively, Crius can increase the gravity in an area.   Creatures within the area must make a Will (?) save or be pulled downward.   Creatures on the ground are slowed (as the _slow_ spell).   Airborne creatures are pulled downward and reach the ground in 1 round.  Falling objects and creatures take falling damage as normal.

Lifting an object in this area is difficult; treat all objects as weighing X times their normal weights.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

that's pretty cool to start.  any ideas how to implement the effects on ranged missiles, melee weapon attacks, and armor class?


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

Well, the easiest thing would be to treat it as if underwater:

Ranged Attacks Underwater: Thrown weapons are ineffective underwater, even when launched from land. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of water they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.

Slashing and bludgeoning weapons:  -2 on attack rolls, half damage.
Grapple checks:  -2 on grapple checks.

A successful Swim check lets a creature move one-quarter its speed as a move action or one-half its speed as a full-round action.

_Freedom of movement_ would negate all penalties and allow normal movement.
So maybe instead of the slow effect I suggested, we could use the underwater movement penalties, replacing a Swim check with a Strength check.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

now yer thinkin.  

also, he can perform a feat where he makes a single object essentially unmovable, and can do it permanently if he concentrates long enough.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

Reprinting his abilities for ease of reference...



> Crius can increase the weight of objects at will, and he can make things weightless. He is able to make any one non-living object too heavy to lift for a period of 1-4 melee rounds; this power can be increased to permanency if the titan is allowed to work on the object for one full turn (saving throw vs. the permanency applicable).



Add to the control gravity ability:

Crius can also change the weight of a single object as a standard action.   He can make the object either weightless, causing it to float upward as per the _reverse gravity_ spell if unattended.   Alternatively, he can increase the weight of an object, making it too heavy to lift for 1d4 rounds.   

If Crius concentrates on an object for 1 minute, he can permanently change its weight.  If he chooses to make the object too heavy to lift, nothing short of a _wish_ or _miracle_ spell can allow the object to be lifted.



> In battle, the titan creates a field of gravity that causes anything launched at him of a physical nature (arrows, spears, etc.) to fall short. All attackers will be at —4 on their chances to hit and —1 on their armor classes while in this field. Likewise, dexterity bonuses do not apply.



Perhaps we could say that the armor-check penalty of armor is doubled in the gravity field?


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

Good stuff.  

As far as the armor check penalty, that is a good idea too.  Did you make mention of items carried?  A character carrying 50 pounds of gear might suddenly find it hard to move if it became 200 pounds.  And a character in full plate mail would have some real problems!

I’d say the “affect single object” should be line of sight, and can work apart from the regular gravity field.

I’m thinking this power is so interesting and different, that I might just open it up to discussion in the general forum.  

As to your previous post (which I did not read as thoroughly as I should have):

Thrown weapons are ineffective within the heavy gravity field, even when launched from outside the field. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the field’s area they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range.  Slashing and bludgeoning weapons suffer a -2 on attack rolls and only do half damage.  Any creature attempting a grapple check suffers a -2 on the check.

A successful Climb check lets a creature move one-quarter its speed as a move action or one-half its speed as a full-round action.

Freedom of movement would negate all penalties and allow normal movement.

And how would these differ under reversed gravity – or is that covered under the spell description?


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Good stuff.



Thanks!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As far as the armor check penalty, that is a good idea too. Did you make mention of items carried? A character carrying 50 pounds of gear might suddenly find it hard to move if it became 200 pounds. And a character in full plate mail would have some real problems!



I didn't mention items carried.  Perhaps to simplify things, say that the user's load doubles/triples/quadruples/etc.?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’d say the “affect single object” should be line of sight, and can work apart from the regular gravity field.



Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m thinking this power is so interesting and different, that I might just open it up to discussion in the general forum.



That's cool.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As to your previous post (which I did not read as thoroughly as I should have):
> 
> Thrown weapons are ineffective within the heavy gravity field, even when launched from outside the field. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the field’s area they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range. Slashing and bludgeoning weapons suffer a -2 on attack rolls and only do half damage. Any creature attempting a grapple check suffers a -2 on the check.
> 
> ...



Looks good.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And how would these differ under reversed gravity – or is that covered under the spell description?



Reverse gravity doesn't seem to have much impact on anything other than flinging landbound creatures upward.   Here's the spell description for quick reference:

"This spell reverses gravity in an area, causing all unattached objects and creatures within that area to fall upward and reach the top of the area in 1 round. If some solid object (such as a ceiling) is encountered in this fall, falling objects and creatures strike it in the same manner as they would during a normal downward fall. If an object or creature reaches the top of the area without striking anything, it remains there, oscillating slightly, until the spell ends. At the end of the spell duration, affected objects and creatures fall downward."

"Provided it has something to hold onto, a creature caught in the area can attempt a Reflex save to secure itself when the spell strikes. Creatures who can fly or levitate can keep themselves from falling."


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

Posted a thread here: http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=80740


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

Cool.

I was daydreaming during a boring meeting, and got to thinking...perhaps D20 Modern or Star Wars has rules for the effects of gravity.   I don't have either of these, but if someone reading this does, perhaps they could enlighten us.


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

reposted the thread in the D&D rules forum, hoping to get a better response there (better than 0, that is):  http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=80830


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

Cool.   In the meantime, I searched the d20 Modern SRD, and found no gravity rules.


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## BOZ (Mar 18, 2004)

finally got a bit of response:  http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=80740

not much though, so most likely we're going to have to rest on our own skills.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2004)

OK.  I gathered up what we've got so far:

*Control Gravity (Sp):* At will, Crius can produce an effect like that of a reverse gravity spell (caster level Xth; Reflex save DC X), except that the range is X feet and it affects an area of up to X 10-foot cubes. Crius simply stacks the cubes to reach a ceiling or other overhang, then uses any remaining area to disrupt the prey's companions.

Alternatively, Crius can increase the gravity in an area. Creatures within the area must make a Will (?) save or be pulled downward. Airborne creatures are pulled downward and reach the ground in 1 round. Falling objects and creatures take falling damage as normal.

Lifting an object in this area is difficult; treat all objects as weighing X times their normal weights.     

Thrown weapons are ineffective within the heavy gravity field, even when launched from outside the field. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the field’s area they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range. Slashing and bludgeoning weapons suffer a -2 on attack rolls and only do half damage. Any creature attempting a grapple check suffers a -2 on the check.

A successful Climb check lets a creature move one-quarter its speed as a move action or one-half its speed as a full-round action.

Freedom of movement negates all penalties and allows normal movement.

*Alter Weight (Sp):  *Crius can also change the weight of a single object as a standard action. Crius must have line of sight to the object he wishes to affect.  He can make the object either weightless, causing it to float upward as per the reverse gravity spell if unattended. Alternatively, he can increase the weight of an object, making it too heavy to lift for 1d4 rounds. 

If Crius concentrates on an object for 1 minute, he can permanently change its weight. If he chooses to make the object too heavy to lift, nothing short of a wish or miracle spell can allow the object to be lifted.


We still need to figure out the effect on encumbrance, which effects movement and armor check penalty.

I also found the following information in the "Planes" portion of the SRD (culled from the new DMG and MOTP).   I don't know why I didn't remember this earlier!  :\ 

_Gravity: _The direction of gravity’s pull may be unusual, and it might even change directions within the plane itself.

_Normal Gravity:_ Most planes have gravity similar to that of the Material Plane. The usual rules for ability scores, carrying capacity, and encumbrance apply. Unless otherwise noted in a description, it is assumed every plane has the normal gravity trait.

_Heavy Gravity:_ The gravity on a plane with this trait is much more intense than on the Material Plane. As a result, Balance, Climb, Jump, Ride, Swim, and Tumble checks incur a –2 circumstance penalty, as do all attack rolls. All item weights are effectively doubled, which might affect a character’s speed. 

Weapon ranges are halved. A character’s Strength and Dexterity scores are not affected. Characters who fall on a heavy gravity plane take 1d10 points of damage for each 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d10 points of damage.

_Light Gravity:_ The gravity on a plane with this trait is less intense than on the Material Plane. As a result, creatures find that they can lift more, but their movements tend to be ungainly. Characters on a plane with the light gravity trait take a –2 circumstance penalty on attack rolls and Balance, Ride, Swim, and Tumble checks. All items weigh half as much. Weapon ranges double, and characters gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Climb and Jump checks.

Strength and Dexterity don’t change as a result of light gravity, but what you can do with such scores does change. These advantages apply to travelers from other planes as well as natives.

Falling characters on a light gravity plane take 1d4 points of damage for each 10 feet of the fall (maximum 20d4).

_No Gravity:_ Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull.

_Objective Directional Gravity:_ The strength of gravity on a plane with this trait is the same as on the Material Plane, but the direction is not the traditional “down” toward the ground. It may be down toward any solid object, at an angle to the surface of the plane itself, or even upward.
In addition, objective directional gravity may change from place to place. The direction of “down” may vary.

_Subjective Directional Gravity:_ The strength of gravity on a plane with this trait is the same as on the Material Plane, but each individual chooses the direction of gravity’s pull. Such a plane has no gravity for unattended objects and nonsentient creatures. This sort of environment can be very disorienting to the newcomer, but is common on “weightless” planes.

Characters on a plane with subjective directional gravity can move normally along a solid surface by imagining “down” near their feet. If suspended in midair, a character “flies” by merely choosing a “down” direction and “falling” that way. Under such a procedure, an individual “falls” 150 feet in the first round and 300 feet in each succeeding round. Movement is straight-line only. In order to stop, one has to slow one’s movement by changing the designated “down” direction (again, moving 150 feet in the new direction in the first round and 300 feet per round thereafter).

It takes a DC 16 Wisdom check to set a new direction of gravity as a free action; this check can be made once per round. Any character who fails this Wisdom check in successive rounds receives a +6 bonus on subsequent checks until he or she succeeds.


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## BOZ (Mar 19, 2004)

yikes!  that's a lot to go through... when i find the time...


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## BOZ (Mar 26, 2004)

OK, first of all, i rewrote the Alter Weight ability.  since it creates a very specific effect, i will consider it more or less "static" as-is.  we can edit it somewhat, as with anything, but no major rewrites will be necessary.  i agree that it should be separate.

as such, i'm also renaming "control gravity" to "gravity field", as that power also becomes more specific with the other part removed.  more on gravity field soon.

Alter Weight (Sp): As a standard action, Crius can change the weight of a single non-living object in his line of sight as a standard action. He can make an unattended object weightless, causing it to float upward as per the reverse gravity spell, for as long as he maintains concentration on it.

Alternatively, Crius can increase the weight of an object, making it too heavy for any creature to lift for 1d4 rounds.  If Crius concentrates on the object for 1 full minute, he can make the object permanently too heavy to lift; nothing short of a wish or miracle spell can allow the object to be lifted.


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## BOZ (Mar 26, 2004)

also, let me say what i'm expecting to get out of the description for "gravity field" - i want a clear, concise description that says everything it needs to say simply, without saying too much.  easy enough.    seriously though, the description could go on and on all day, but i don't want that.  if we can say, for example, "characters are affected as if they were in heavy gravity, see DMG page 147" and cut out a paragraph or two or at least a few sentences, that would make me happy.  i will give this more thought after lunch.


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## BOZ (Mar 26, 2004)

Ok, taking the above into account, I’ve given it some thought…  how about this for everything but the first paragraph of “gravity field”:

Alternatively, Crius can increase the gravity in a similarly sized area. Creatures within the area are affected as if they were on a plane with heavy gravity (see Dungeon Master’s Guide, pages 147-148).  Airborne creatures are pulled downward and reach the ground in 1 round. The armor check penalties of armors worn in this area are doubled.  Any creature attempting a grapple check suffers a –2 circumstance penalty on the check.  A freedom of movement spell negates all penalties and allows normal movement.

Thrown weapons are ineffective within the heavy gravity field, even when launched from outside the field. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the field’s area they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range and heavier gravity.


I don’t think we need to include anything on “light gravity,” and the fact that it’s not mentioned in the DMG makes it seem even more unnecessary to me.

We might want to include a bit about “no gravity”, optionally.

I see no need to allow him to change the directional gravity.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

Welcome back, BOZ.   

Alter Weight looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ok, taking the above into account, I’ve given it some thought… how about this for everything but the first paragraph of “gravity field”:
> 
> Alternatively, Crius can increase the gravity in a similarly sized area. Creatures within the area are affected as if they were on a plane with heavy gravity (see Dungeon Master’s Guide, pages 147-148). Airborne creatures are pulled downward and reach the ground in 1 round. The armor check penalties of armors worn in this area are doubled. Any creature attempting a grapple check suffers a –2 circumstance penalty on the check. A freedom of movement spell negates all penalties and allows normal movement.



Looks good.  Did you want to include anything about light/medium/heavy loads?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Thrown weapons are ineffective within the heavy gravity field, even when launched from outside the field. Attacks with other ranged weapons take a –2 penalty on attack rolls for every 5 feet of the field’s area they pass through, in addition to the normal penalties for range and heavier gravity.



Sounds good. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t think we need to include anything on “light gravity,” and the fact that it’s not mentioned in the DMG makes it seem even more unnecessary to me.



It is in the DMG, isn't it?  It's in the SRD at least.  I could only really see him using it to increase the ranged attacks of his allies (if he has any).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> We might want to include a bit about “no gravity”, optionally.



I think we should.  Weightless combat could be fun.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I see no need to allow him to change the directional gravity.



Yeah, that would probably just complicate matters.


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## BOZ (Mar 26, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Welcome back, BOZ.




thanks.    i never really was that far away...



> Looks good.  Did you want to include anything about light/medium/heavy loads?




i don't see why.  i smart DM should be able to figure out that if a paladin's full plate mail now weighs twice as much, he's going to have a hard time moving in it.  likewise, anyone carrying a lot of gear would also be slowed down if they don't drop it.



> It is in the DMG, isn't it?  It's in the SRD at least.  I could only really see him using it to increase the ranged attacks of his allies (if he has any).




lower gravity?  look at page 147-148; i don't see it there.



> I think we should.  Weightless combat could be fun.




ok, a 1-3 sentence paragraph should wrap that up.[/QUOTE]


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't see why. i smart DM should be able to figure out that if a paladin's full plate mail now weighs twice as much, he's going to have a hard time moving in it. likewise, anyone carrying a lot of gear would also be slowed down if they don't drop it.



Fair enough.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> lower gravity? look at page 147-148; i don't see it there.



Well I'll be...  It must have been an oversight, as it is in both MOTP and the 3.5 SRD.  Weird.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, a 1-3 sentence paragraph should wrap that up.



Here's what the SRD says:

_No Gravity:_ Individuals on a plane with this trait merely float in space, unless other resources are available to provide a direction for gravity’s pull.

Upon reading this again, it might be hard to apply this to an area that normally has gravity.   Maybe we better just stick to high gravity and reverse gravity after all.  :\


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## BOZ (Mar 26, 2004)

then i guess we're done with that particular power.    will work more in this guy very soon...


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## BOZ (Mar 26, 2004)

OK, assuming we're done with Gravity Field, it looks like the bulk of what is left are skills, feats, spells, and spell-like abilities.


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## BOZ (Mar 27, 2004)

was going to work on him, but ran out of time.  in the meantime, posting in homebrews so you can see what he looks like so far.

i tried to find a picture of him on google, but he was a pretty minor titan and i had no luck.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

comments, suggestions so far?    i'm going to try to find the time to work on him today...


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

Same here.  What's left is pretty time-intensive to figure out.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

Well, sometimes the best way to get something done is to take it piece by piece…

Here are the standards:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Other suggestions…

Well, naturally, reverse gravity comes to mind again.  We can of course use that one here again and/or on one of the appropriate spell lists, if that is not just too damned repetitive.  

More ideas – how about some of the following (if no, we can always tack them on one of the other spell lists): telekinesis, ray of exhaustion, enlarge person (or mass), reduce person (or mass), slow, stoneskin, waves of fatigue, waves of exhaustion, bull’s strength (or mass), move earth

“Crius is the master of gravity, weight, and density in physical matter.”  Anything fitting that theme would be appropriate, but of course we are not limited to looking only at that.

(By the way, for the spellcasting levels, did I figure out the number of spells right?  I can’t remember if I just copied that from another titan and forgot to fix it)


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, sometimes the best way to get something done is to take it piece by piece…



Ain't that the truth.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Here are the standards:
> 
> Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.



None of those seem inappropriate.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Other suggestions…
> 
> Well, naturally, reverse gravity comes to mind again. We can of course use that one here again and/or on one of the appropriate spell lists, if that is not just too damned repetitive.



Well it might be repetitive and reduntant, but I suppose having it on his spell list would allow him to apply metamagic feats to it, if we give him any. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> More ideas – how about some of the following (if no, we can always tack them on one of the other spell lists): telekinesis, ray of exhaustion, enlarge person (or mass), reduce person (or mass), slow, stoneskin, waves of fatigue, waves of exhaustion, bull’s strength (or mass), move earth.



Most of those make sense to me.   Stoneskin is about the only one that doesn't seem somehow gravity-related.

Some other suggestions:   Jump, expeditious retreat, any of the Bigby's spells.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “Crius is the master of gravity, weight, and density in physical matter.” Anything fitting that theme would be appropriate, but of course we are not limited to looking only at that.
> 
> (By the way, for the spellcasting levels, did I figure out the number of spells right? I can’t remember if I just copied that from another titan and forgot to fix it)



Let's see:

15th-level Cleric:       6 5+1 5+1 5+1 4+1 4+1 3+1 2+1 1+1  -
Bonus Spells for Wis:  - 4     3      3    3    3    2     2     2   2 
Total:                      6 10 9 9 8 8 6 5 4 -

15th-level Sorcerer:   6 6 6 6 6 6 6 4 - - 
Bonus Spells for Cha:  - 3 3 2 2 2 2 1 1 1 
Total:                       6 9 9 8 8 8 8 5 - -


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

cool, looks like i did refigure the numbers, but was slightly inaccurate.    i'll work on coming up with a spell list and add the spell-likes in.

for cleric domains, Chaos and Evil are obvious.  if i wanted two more, how about Strength and probably one of the following: Magic, Protection, Trickery, Travel


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## Shade (Mar 29, 2004)

My vote's for Magic.


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## BOZ (Mar 29, 2004)

Chaos, Evil, Magic, and Strength it is - i will try to come up with a starter spell list before i leave today.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

OK, wish i had more time, but c'est la vie.   here is what i have worked with so far:

Spells: Crius can cast divine spells as a 15th-level cleric. Crius has access to the following domains: Chaos, Evil, Magic, and Strength. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/10/9/9/8/8/6/5/4; save DC 23 + spell level): 
0 – detect magic, guidance, inflict minor wounds, mending, read magic, resistance; 
1st – Nystul’s magic aura*, protection from good, protection from law; 
2nd – bull’s strength, desecrate, identify*, shatter; 
3rd – dispel magic, magic circle against good, magic circle against law, magic vestment; 
4th – chaos hammer*, imbue with spell ability, spell immunity; 
5th – dispel good, dispel law, righteous might, spell resistance; 
6th – animate objects, antimagic field*, create undead; 
7th – blasphemy, spell turning*, word of chaos; 
8th – cloak of chaos, protection from spells*, unholy aura.
*Domain spell.

Crius can also cast arcane spells as a 15th-level sorcerer (6/9/9/8/8/8/8/5; save DC 20 + spell level). He has access to the following spells: 
0 – arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, ghost sound, mage hand, message, open/close, prestidigitation, touch of fatigue; 9 total
1st – ; 5
2nd – ; 5
3rd – ; 4
4th – stoneskin; 4
5th – ; 4
6th – ; 3
7th – reverse gravity. 2
The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

It looks good so far.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

hopefully, i shall have more time today to work on it.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

and so i did!  

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, enlarge person, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, jump, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, reduce person (DC X), slow (DC X), unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, waves of exhaustion (DC X), word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s clenched fist (DC X), Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), Bigby’s grasping hand (DC X),gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spells: Crius can cast divine spells as a 15th-level cleric. Crius has access to the following domains: Chaos, Evil, Magic, and Strength. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/10/9/9/8/8/6/5/4; save DC 23 + spell level): 
0 – detect magic, guidance, inflict minor wounds, mending, read magic, resistance; 
1st – cause fear, detect good, divine favor, doom (x2), Nystul’s magic aura*, protection from good, protection from law, sanctuary, shield of faith; 
2nd – aid, bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, desecrate, eagle’s splendor, identify*, shatter, silence, sound burst; 
3rd – bestow curse, blindness/deafness, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against good, magic circle against law, magic vestment*, meld into stone, prayer, protection from energy; 
4th – chaos hammer*, dimensional anchor, dismissal, divine power, greater magic weapon, imbue with spell ability, spell immunity, tongues; 
5th – dispel good, dispel law, greater command, mass inflict wounds, righteous might*, spell resistance, true seeing, summon monster V; 
6th – animate objects, antimagic field*, create undead, forbiddance, greater dispel magic, harm; 
7th – blasphemy, greater restoration, regenerate, spell turning*, word of chaos; 
8th – cloak of chaos, earthquake, protection from spells*, unholy aura.
*Domain spell.

Crius can also cast arcane spells as a 15th-level sorcerer (6/9/9/8/8/8/8/5; save DC 20 + spell level). He has access to the following spells: 
0 – arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, ghost sound, mage hand, message, open/close, prestidigitation, touch of fatigue; 
1st – expeditious retreat, feather fall, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, Tenser’s floating disk; 
2nd – blur, misdirection, owl’s wisdom, pyrotechnics, spider climb; 
3rd – gaseous form, halt undead, haste, ray of exhaustion; 
4th – mass enlarge person, mass reduce person, Otiluke’s resilient sphere, stoneskin; 
5th – telekinesis, transmute rock to mud, wall of force, waves of fatigue; 
6th – mass bull’s strength, move earth, repulsion; 
7th – reverse gravity, symbol of weakness.
The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

Nice work!   I'd recommend giving him the Automatic Quicken Spell feat three times (and its prereqs), as that way he can always cast a spell in a round that he uses his gravity powers.


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## BOZ (Mar 30, 2004)

Automatic Quicken Spell?  is that epic?

guess we're ready to move on to skills and feats to finish him up...


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2004)

Yes it is.  Each time you take, three levels of your spells are all treated as quickened.  Take it three times, and all your spells are quickened, all the time.   

He'll need reqular Quicken Spell and 30 ranks of Spellcraft for prereqs.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2004)

right on.  

how about the following list for skills:

Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (arcana, history, religion, planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot

More:
Craft (stonemasonry?), Perform (percussion?)


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2004)

ideas for feats, hmm...

Ability Focus (gravity field) Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (slam), Iron Will, Power Attack (& such), Quicken Spell, Weapon Focus (slam)


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

Those feats all sound good.  Taking into account my suggestion of Automatic Quicken Spell (x3), that leaves four epic feats.  Right?

Here are some suggestions:   Epic Fortitude, Epic Endurance, Epic Will, Fast Healing, Eschew Materials (nonepic), Ignore Material Components.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

Your skill suggestions look good, too.  I'd suggest adding Knowledge (nature) as well, since gravity is kinda natural.   

Any particular historical reason for suggestiong Perform (percussion)?


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2004)

Trimming feats down a bit, how about:

Feats: Ability Focus (gravity field) Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Endurance, Eschew Materials, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (slam), Iron Will, Quicken Spell

Epic Feats: Automatic Quicken Spell (x3), Epic Fortitude, Epic Endurance, Epic Will, Fast Healing, Ignore Material Components


As for why I picked Perform (percussion)…  for some reason, I like the idea that the Greek Titans (all except for maybe Coeus and Altas) would have some sort of musical inclination.  You’ll notice that we gave Cronus, Oceanus, and Prometheus 2 or 3 Perform skills.  For Crius, if he’d have one at all, I would think of drums, because they make a heavy booming sound – appropriate, neh?  It’s hardly necessary though, which is why I left it optional.

I’ve tried to do the same thing with Craft where appropriate, hence the suggested stonemasonry (and what are stones, if not heavy?)


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

Looks good!   The explanation for Perform and Craft makes perfect sense.   

Along those same lines, perhaps Knowledge (architecture and engineering) would be appropriate, as bridges and the like often attempt to defy gravity.  He might wanna know how they do that.


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2004)

added a few more skills.  how does this arrangement look for ranks?

Skills: 1144	Balance +37, Bluff +47, Climb +47, Concentration +47, Craft (stonemasonry) +47, Decipher Script +37, Diplomacy +31, Gather Information +47, Heal +37, Intimidate +47, Jump +53, Knowledge (arcana) +52, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +40, Knowledge (history) +47, Knowledge (nature) +47, Knowledge (religion) +52, Knowledge (the planes) +57, Listen +47, Perform (percussion) +47, Search +47, Sense Motive +53, Spellcraft +52, Spot +47, Survival +37, Swim +42


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2004)

That arrangement looks excellent.   Isn't it fun assigning 1,144 skill ranks?


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## BOZ (Mar 31, 2004)

tell me about it.    i'll add all of this up when i have a moment...


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

OK, updating...

only a few items remain (see if there are any others to deal with):

range on tremorsense - is there a standard, or should he have better than standard?

CR - 32 or 33?

treasure - double standard?

weight - i was going to make cronus the heaviest at 750,000, but then i got to thinking - wouldn't it make sense for crius to be the heaviest?

languages - is he fine with Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant?

this paragraph has a few values to fill in:  At will, Crius can produce an effect like that of a reverse gravity spell (caster level Xth; Reflex save DC X), except that the range is X feet and it affects an area of up to X 10-foot cubes. If necessary, Crius can simply stack the cubes to reach a ceiling or other overhang, then use any remaining area to disrupt other opponents.

and please check to see that i got the spell-like ability DCs right.    should be 10 + Cha (+10) plus spell level, so even i should have gotten it right.


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

another thing - on the bright side, the two remaning titans should be the weakest of the bunch - maybe they won't take as long as the others have.


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## Filby (Apr 1, 2004)

Rhea's not up for conversion?

Anyway, I think Coeus should prove pretty easy... he comes off to me as pretty much the token "greater-than-the-average-greater titan" and not much more.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2004)

Tremorsense most often is 60 feet, but I could see him having say, 120 ft., due to his incredibly sensitivity to gravity.

CR 33.  His gravity powers are pretty powerful and can really alter the battlefield.

Double standard treasure is fine.

Yeah, make him the heaviest.  Maybe 100,000 pounds?

Languages seem fine.

At will, Crius can produce an effect like that of a reverse gravity spell (caster level 25th; Reflex save DC 44), except that the range is 350 feet and it affects an area of up to ten 10-foot cubes. If necessary, Crius can simply stack the cubes to reach a ceiling or other overhang, then use any remaining area to disrupt other opponents.

Spell-like DCs look correct.

And with that, I think he's finished.


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

Filby said:
			
		

> Rhea's not up for conversion?
> 
> Anyway, I think Coeus should prove pretty easy... he comes off to me as pretty much the token "greater-than-the-average-greater titan" and not much more.




naw, I decided to nix on Rhea.  We need to finish up these titans and move on – we’ve been on them since December and only have 5 finished.   got the Midgard Serpent next, and after that as far as I can tell we’ll be spending most of the rest of the year on archfiends.  

and yes, you’re right about Coeus.  We’ll get to him next.  And Epimetheus shouldn’t be that hard – he’ll be something like a “baby Prometheus”.    with only 40 HD each, these two will be the weakest of the bunch most likely.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, make him the heaviest. Maybe 100,000 pounds?




well, that would make him the lightest yet.    I decided to go with 800,000.

Updating in homebrews one more time… have another look just to be sure.

Could you help me spice up the italicized descriptive text?  It’s the best I could think of.    since the old DDG didn’t have a picture and I couldn’t find a picture of him on google…


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> naw, I decided to nix on Rhea. We need to finish up these titans and move on – we’ve been on them since December and only have 5 finished.  got the Midgard Serpent next, and after that as far as I can tell we’ll be spending most of the rest of the year on archfiends.



That may be an understatement.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, that would make him the lightest yet.  I decided to go with 800,000.



Oops!  I forgot a zero.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Could you help me spice up the italicized descriptive text? It’s the best I could think of.  since the old DDG didn’t have a picture and I couldn’t find a picture of him on google…



Here's a try..

_This colossal humanoid seems to bear more weight on his frame than his size would suggest.   His skin is a dull gray, and his long gray beard seems to be pulled by invisible weights to almost touch the ground.  His cloak, although dry, sags as if waterlogged._


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

that's a nice writeup.    updated again - have a look, is he complete?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2004)

I think we can _gravitate_ towards the next one.


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## BOZ (Apr 1, 2004)

*exaggerated groan*

well, that means we have 10 more to add to the CC.    and that also means i can get back to all the threads i've been all but ignoring...


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

here's our boy - the li'lest titan!    (in fact, he's shorter, but more powerful overall, than a regular titan)


*Titan, Greater, Coeus*
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 40d8+680 (860 hp)
Initiative: +5
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 41 (-2 size, +5 Dex, +28 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 36
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+66
Attack: +5 sword +61 melee (5d6+X)
Full Attack: +5 sword +61 melee (5d6+X)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft
Special Attacks: fear and/or frightful presence, spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: damage reduction 10 or 15?/epic, darkvision 60 ft, spell resistance 36, shapechange
Saves: Fort +39 Ref +27 Will +33
Abilities: Str 47 Dex 20 Con 44 Int 35 Wis 32 Cha ?
Skills: 860
Feats: 7+7 epic

Environment: Tarterian Depths of Carceri
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard?
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

_This huge humanoid is horrifying in appearance._

Coeus is the embodiment of fear, and takes a great pleasure in frightening mortals quite literally to death.

Coeus is one of the original Titans born to Uranus and Gaea, and an older brother of Cronus.  

Coeus fought alongside his brothers in the war against the Olympian gods, and was thus imprisoned along with them.  Coeus’ temple is on the layer Minethys of Carceri.

Coeus is 21 feet tall and weighs X pounds.

Coeus speaks…

COMBAT 

Coeus's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.

Originally found in the first edition Deities and Demigods (1980, James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz).

COEUS (greater titan of fear)
FIGHTER: 16th level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 15th level magic-user

Coeus appears as a horrifying greater titan, and he kills by fear. All those that do not make their saving throw versus magic will be struck with a loss of 25% of their total original hit points every time they see him angry. Coeus can shape change at will.
When first coming within 20 yards of him, a saving throw vs. spells must be made or the being will die of fright! After that it is necessary to make a saving throw every 4 melee rounds or run in fear for 10 turns. He uses a +5 sword in battle that strikes for 5-30 points of damage. Coeus travels only at night and never fights during the day.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

Change "sword" to "greatsword". A greatsword sized for a Huge creature would deal 4d6 points of damage (see Storm Giant). However, thanks to the greater titans' wield oversized weapon ability, he could used one sized for a Gargantuan creature, which would presumably do 5d6 (as listed).

Edit:  He would do 5d6+27, based on his 47 Str and wielding two-handed.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

Here's an attempt at Coeus' fear power:

Lethal Frightful Presence (Su):  Any creature within 60 feet of Coeus must make a DC X Will save or die.  If the creature succeeds on the initial save, it must continue to make Will saves every round or become panicked for X rounds/minutes.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

I'm not sure how to incorporate this:



> All those that do not make their saving throw versus magic will be struck with a loss of 25% of their total original hit points every time they see him angry.



Also, I'd recommend adding "immunity to fear" to his SQ line.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

that's why i left it as "sword", because i wasn't sure where we would go with it and i wanted to be able to change it easily.    don't forget the bonus from it being a +5 sword.  so would this be the line we want for that weapon?:
+5 greatsword +61 melee (5d6+32/19-20/x2)

Oversized Weapon (Ex): Coeus can wield a great, two-handed weapon (big enough for Gargantuan creatures) with no penalty.


for the fear power, how about a Con drain to replace that hit point loss?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

Brilliant!


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

How about these:

“Lethal Fear” (Su): Any creature within 60 feet of Coeus must make a DC X Will save or die from fright. If the creature succeeds on the initial save, it must continue to make Will saves every round or become panicked for 2d8 minutes. The save DC is Charisma-based. (Coeus can suppress this ability at will?)

“Draining Presence” (Su): Any creature (of X HD or less?) that sees Coeus in a fit of rage must make a successful Will save (DC X) or be drained of X Constitution points.  This is a mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

This brings up a question I had brewing.  In 1E, Coeus was cursed with a negative Charisma score.  I have seen this before on certain evil gods and beings that are very ugly.  I have no idea how this worked.  Naturally now, this would be far more of a hindrance that it ever could have been in the past, so I think we actually want to give Coeus a high Cha score.  Suggestions?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> “Lethal Fear” (Su): Any creature within 60 feet of Coeus must make a DC X Will save or die from fright. If the creature succeeds on the initial save, it must continue to make Will saves every round or become panicked for 2d8 minutes. The save DC is Charisma-based. (Coeus can suppress this ability at will?)



I like.  Good idea on suppress ability.   Additionally, should we state that other greater titans are immune to it?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “Draining Presence” (Su): Any creature (of X HD or less?) that sees Coeus in a fit of rage must make a successful Will save (DC X) or be drained of X Constitution points. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.



So are we giving him the rage ability?  That would be cool.     For consistency, I'd reword it "or take X points of Constitution drain".   Do we need a HD limit?  I think the Will save is enough.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> This brings up a question I had brewing. In 1E, Coeus was cursed with a negative Charisma score. I have seen this before on certain evil gods and beings that are very ugly. I have no idea how this worked. Naturally now, this would be far more of a hindrance that it ever could have been in the past, so I think we actually want to give Coeus a high Cha score. Suggestions?



How about we give him a high Cha score, but under the skills entry state that due to his horrific appearance, Coeus takes a -X penalty to all Diplomacy, Handle Animal, etc. checks?


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like.  Good idea on suppress ability.   Additionally, should we state that other greater titans are immune to it?




no, but we could give that an HD limit (see below, heh)




> So are we giving him the rage ability?  That would be cool.     For consistency, I'd reword it "or take X points of Constitution drain".   Do we need a HD limit?  I think the Will save is enough.




heh, no Rage.  Just going by, “All those that do not make their saving throw versus magic will be struck with a loss of 25% of their total original hit points every time they see him angry.”  And yes, drain not damage – but I wasn’t sure how to word that.  Maybe the drain could be 1d3 or 1d4.  the reason for an HD limit is because I wasn’t sure he should affect everything that way – though we could always move the limit to the other ability?



> How about we give him a high Cha score, but under the skills entry state that due to his horrific appearance, Coeus takes a -X penalty to all Diplomacy, Handle Animal, etc. checks?




maybe so, but the rules don’t do that anymore for ugly creatures with high Cha.  A mind flayer has a 17, but would you make out with one?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> heh, no Rage. Just going by, “All those that do not make their saving throw versus magic will be struck with a loss of 25% of their total original hit points every time they see him angry.” And yes, drain not damage – but I wasn’t sure how to word that. Maybe the drain could be 1d3 or 1d4. the reason for an HD limit is because I wasn’t sure he should affect everything that way – though we could always move the limit to the other ability?



If you go with a HD limit, I'd put it on the insta-kill effect (similar to power word kill, etc.) 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe so, but the rules don’t do that anymore for ugly creatures with high Cha. A mind flayer has a 17, but would you make out with one?



That would depend on how many beers I had.   

I was thinking more from the "uncomfortable, palpable terror" than sheer ugliness for the ability.   Kinda like the effect spectres and such have on animals.  Speaking of which, how about this?

*Unnatural Aura (Su):* Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of Coeus at a distance of X feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

How about if I mix ‘em up a bit:

Lethal Fright (Su): Any creature (of X HD or less?) within 60 feet of Coeus must make a DC X Will save or die from fright. If the creature succeeds on the initial save, it must continue to make Will saves every round or become panicked for 2d8 minutes. The save DC is Charisma-based. Coeus can suppress this ability at will.

Draining Presence (Su): Any creature that sees Coeus in a fit of fury must make a successful Will save (DC X) or take X points of Constitution drain.  Coeus can only use this ability once on a particular creature per encounter.  This is a mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I was thinking more from the "uncomfortable, palpable terror" than sheer ugliness for the ability.   Kinda like the effect spectres and such have on animals.  Speaking of which, how about this?
> 
> *Unnatural Aura (Su):* Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of Coeus at a distance of X feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.




good idea, i'll keep it.


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## Clifford (Apr 7, 2004)

Oooh oooh oooh How about Symbol of fear as a spell like ability.

Cliff


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## GreyShadow (Apr 7, 2004)

With his Shapechange, how about anything he changes to be unnaturally ugly.  He can change his form, but not his nature.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Lethal Fright (Su): Any creature (of X HD or less?) within 60 feet of Coeus must make a DC X Will save or die from fright. If the creature succeeds on the initial save, it must continue to make Will saves every round or become panicked for 2d8 minutes. The save DC is Charisma-based. Coeus can suppress this ability at will.



I like.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Draining Presence (Su): Any creature that sees Coeus in a fit of fury must make a successful Will save (DC X) or take X points of Constitution drain. Coeus can only use this ability once on a particular creature per encounter. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.



We should probably better define "fit of fury".  Perhaps we can just borrow from frightful presence, and say "any time Coeus attacks, charges, or flies overhead" (we could probably leave out the fly part).   Also, I'd reword "Coeus can only use this ability once on a particular creature per encounter" to "Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by Coeus’s draining presence ability for 24 hours", just to be consistent with similar abilities.  



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Oooh oooh oooh How about Symbol of fear as a spell like ability.



An excellent suggestion.   



			
				GreyShadow said:
			
		

> With his Shapechange, how about anything he changes to be unnaturally ugly. He can change his form, but not his nature.



Brilliant!


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

Clifford said:
			
		

> Oooh oooh oooh How about Symbol of fear as a spell like ability.




noted, and welcome back cliff.  



			
				GreyShadow said:
			
		

> With his Shapechange, how about anything he changes to be unnaturally ugly. He can change his form, but not his nature.




it wasn’t what I was going for, but actually I do like it!    and welcome back to you too.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We should probably better define "fit of fury". Perhaps we can just borrow from frightful presence, and say "any time Coeus attacks, charges, or flies overhead" (we could probably leave out the fly part). Also, I'd reword "Coeus can only use this ability once on a particular creature per encounter" to "", just to be consistent with similar abilities.




I was just trying to come up with a more creative way of saying “when Coeus gets angry.”    but if that’s not very “3.5ish”, then I guess we can go with “when Coeus attacks or charges”.

And thanks for the rewording – sometimes I write something quickly in a “fit of inspiration” and fix the bad grammar better later - don’t feel bad about saving me some time with that.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I was just trying to come up with a more creative way of saying “when Coeus gets angry.”  but if that’s not very “3.5ish”, then I guess we can go with “when Coeus attacks or charges”.



I like creative wording, I was just afraid that some rules lawyer would argue with their DM about when it applied.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And thanks for the rewording – sometimes I write something quickly in a “fit of inspiration” and fix the bad grammar better later - don’t feel bad about saving me some time with that.



Those fits of inspiration have given us some of best ideas, so keep 'em coming.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like creative wording, I was just afraid that some rules lawyer would argue with their DM about when it applied.




No, I totally get where you’re coming from.  “attacking or charging” does seem to work for the best.

More thoughts for coeus:

1E DDG has him as a 15th level magic-user.  Seems to me that sorcerer is the most likely choice now.


for “Coeus can shape change at will,” how about borrowing from what we did with Cronus?
Alternate Form (Su): Coeus can assume any form of (Huge?) size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on himself (caster level Xth), except that Coeus does not regain hit points for changing form. Coeus can remain in his alternate form until he chooses to assume a new one or return to his natural form.

How shall we write in the part about him remaining unnaturally ugly in every form?


And spell-like abilities, we have the standard for evil titans:
Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Plus Clifford’s suggestion of Symbol of fear.

And here are a few ideas of my own (some can be used for sorcerer spells, alternatively):
Ghost sound, ventriloquism, cause fear, scare, spectral hand, rage, confusion, shout (or greater), fear, nightmare, baleful polymorph, greater shadow conjuration.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

also, rewrote this a bit after comparing with the entry for dragons:
Draining Presence (Su): Coeus can drain the life out of foes with his angry presence.  This ability takes effect automatically whenever Coeus attacks or charges, and any creatures looking at Coeus must make a successful Will save (DC X) or take X points of Constitution drain.  Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by Coeus’ draining presence ability for 24 hours.  This is a mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

besides that, shouldn't take much more to finish him off.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 1E DDG has him as a 15th level magic-user. Seems to me that sorcerer is the most likely choice now.



I agree. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> for “Coeus can shape change at will,” how about borrowing from what we did with Cronus?
> 
> How shall we write in the part about him remaining unnaturally ugly in every form?



How about:

Alternate Form (Su): Coeus can assume any form of (Huge?) size or smaller as a standard action. This ability functions as a polymorph spell cast on himself (caster level Xth), except that Coeus does not regain hit points for changing form.  Coeus always appears as an extremely ugly member of whatever creature type he assumes.  Coeus can remain in his alternate form until he chooses to assume a new one or return to his natural form.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And spell-like abilities, we have the standard for evil titans:
> Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), deeper darkness, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.
> 
> Plus Clifford’s suggestion of Symbol of fear.
> ...



I like all the suggested additions, as well as phantasmal killer.

From the original greater titan spell-like list, I could see removing invisibility and deeper darkness (he _wants_ people to look at him, right?) and polymorph (reduntant with alternate form).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> also, rewrote this a bit after comparing with the entry for dragons:
> Draining Presence (Su): Coeus can drain the life out of foes with his angry presence. This ability takes effect automatically whenever Coeus attacks or charges, and any creatures looking at Coeus must make a successful Will save (DC X) or take X points of Constitution drain. Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected again by Coeus’ draining presence ability for 24 hours. This is a mind-affecting effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.



Looks great!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> besides that, shouldn't take much more to finish him off.



So we need not fear "Coeus interruptus"?


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like all the suggested additions, as well as phantasmal killer.
> 
> From the original greater titan spell-like list, I could see removing invisibility and deeper darkness (he _wants_ people to look at him, right?) and polymorph (reduntant with alternate form).




Cool.  I’ll start working on a spell list tonight, most likely.  I will shift invisibility and deeper darkness to his sorcerer list – there may actually be times when he wants to move around unseen.  I tend to see him as this little sneaky guy among Titans, who loves to scare the shi’ite out of anything smaller than him.  



> So we need not fear "Coeus interruptus"?




*head spins*  one would hope not!


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## BOZ (Apr 8, 2004)

OK, here's what i came up with so far:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – bestow curse (DC X), cause fear (DC X), chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), confusion (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), fear (DC X), fire storm (DC X), ghost sound (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), protection from energy, read magic, scare (DC X), unholy blight (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, phantasmal killer (DC X), summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – Bigby’s crushing hand (DC X), gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk.  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Spells: Coeus can cast arcane spells as a 15th-level sorcerer (6/X/X/X/X/X/X/X; save DC X + spell level). He has access to the following spells: 
0 – daze, prestidigitation, ray of frost; 9 total
1st – expeditious retreat, protection from good, ventriloquism; 5
2nd – darkness, invisibility, spectral hand, summon swarm; 5
3rd – displacement, nondetection, rage; 4
4th – shout; 4
5th – baleful polymorph, nightmare; 4
6th – symbol of fear; 3
7th – greater shadow conjuration.  2
The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Got any suggestions to finish off the sorcerer list?  

Now, of course, would be a good time to determine his Charisma score.


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2004)

Spell-Likes:  bane, doom, weird.

Spells:
0 - detect magic, ghost sound, message, read magic, touch of fatigue
1 - ray of enfeeblement, reduce person, true strike
2 - hideous laughter, mirror image, touch of idiocy
3 - dispel magic, slow
4 - black tentacles, crushing despair, enervation, stoneskin
5 - dream, feeblemind, mind fog, prying eyes, waves of fatigue
6 - circle of death, eyebite, greater dispel magic, repulsion
7 - finger of death, project image, waves of exhaustion


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## Shade (Apr 8, 2004)

Oh, almost forgot...Cha 26.


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## BOZ (Apr 8, 2004)

posting in homebrews.    haven’t really had a chance to work on stuff here today.

he's coming along pretty quickly – I’m surprised how easy he’s been, at least compared to some of the other titans.


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## Clifford (Apr 9, 2004)

Originally Posted by Clifford
Oooh oooh oooh How about Symbol of fear as a spell like ability. 

BOZ Said
noted, and welcome back cliff. 

I cant remember if we have any more titans but can we do something other than a titan on the next conversion I need a break from titans i heard someone mention Jormundgand that sounds pretty bad ass.

cliff


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## BOZ (Apr 9, 2004)

Cliff – 

There’s only one more titan, Epimetheus, and I know what you mean.  Jormy will be next after him, I promise!    that one’s going to be a real challenge…


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## Clifford (Apr 10, 2004)

Alrighty than lets convert that sucker i have lots o ideas about jormy i figure about 75 hit dice for starters. (Figure thor has sixty and godlike powers) so jormy would need that many to stand a chance at ragnarock if he is fighting thor. but i am getting a little ahead of myself here on to the last titan.

cliff


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

I just looked him over in homebrews.

For weight, he is 4 feet taller than a standard titan, which weighs 14,000 pounds.   Maybe Coeus can weigh 12,000 lbs?

For draining presence, how about 2d4 points of Con drain?

For lethal fright, any creature of 40 HD or less?

For alternate form, Huge should work.  Caster level 25th like spell-likes?

For unnatural aura, how about 1 mile?

Feats:  Ability Focus (draining presence), Cleave, Fear Focus (see below), Great Cleave, Greater Fear Focus (see below), Improved Critical (greatsword), Persuasive, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (phantasmal killer), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (greatsword).
Epic Feats:  Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Intimidate), Devastating Critical (greatsword), Overwhelming Critical (greatsword)

I've noticed a trend of giving Spell Focus-like feats for descriptors in recent books and issues of Dragon.   Since Coeus' fear spells seem to be of numerous schools, here's an attempt to give him an edge at casting fear spells.

Fear Focus [General] 
You are especially gifted at casting spells with the fear descriptor.
Benefit: Any spells that you cast that have the fear descriptor gain a +1 bonus to their save DC. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Spell Focus. You also gain a +1 bonus on all saving throws made against spells with the fear descriptor.

Greater Fear Focus [General] 
You ability of casting spells with the fear descriptor has grown even more formidable.
Prerequisites:  Fear Focus
Benefit: Any spells that you cast that have the fear descriptor gain a +1 bonus to their save DC. This bonus stacks with the bonus granted by Fear Focus. You gain an additional +1 bonus on all saving throws made against spells with the fear descriptor.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> For weight, he is 4 feet taller than a standard titan, which weighs 14,000 pounds.   Maybe Coeus can weigh 12,000 lbs?




if you'd said "4 feet smaller" that sentence would make a lot more sense.  



> For draining presence, how about 2d4 points of Con drain?
> 
> For lethal fright, any creature of 40 HD or less?
> 
> For alternate form, Huge should work.  Caster level 25th like spell-likes?




bold and agressive, i like it!  



> For unnatural aura, how about 1 mile?




that might be a bit much though...


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## GreyShadow (Apr 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that might be a bit much though...




How about line of sight, or if not seen 200 yards.  He is ugly afterall.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if you'd said "4 feet smaller" that sentence would make a lot more sense.



You know, it really would.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> bold and agressive, i like it!



 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that might be a bit much though...



Yeah, probably so.  A spectre is only 30 feet.   Perhaps GreyShadow's suggestion of line of sight, which would proably be sufficiently covered by 120 ft.?


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## BOZ (Apr 13, 2004)

OK, that works for me.


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## BOZ (Apr 16, 2004)

Skills for Coeus…

Skills: 860 - Balance +X, Bluff +X, Climb +X, Concentration +X, Craft (??) +X, Decipher Script +X, Diplomacy +X, Gather Information +X, Heal +X, Intimidate +X, Jump +X, Knowledge (arcana, history, religion, the planes) +X, Listen +X, Perform (??) +X, Search +X, Sense Motive +X, Spellcraft +X, Spot +X

Escape Artist?  Survival?

Persuasive bonus (Bluff, Intimidate), Epic Skill – Intimidate +10, Epic Rep (+4 Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, Intimidate, Perform)


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2004)

Interesting...I did a Google search on Coeus to see if I could get a little more insight on this guy, and apparently he was known as "the titan of Intelligence".  Should we reflect this in his Int score and skills?

If we go this route, we should probably give him even more Knowledge skills.  To further this aspect, perhaps his Perform skill should be oratory?   Perhaps for Craft, we could give him bookbinding (mentioned in Magic of Faerun, if not elsewhere).

I think we can do without Escape Artist and Survival.


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## BOZ (Apr 16, 2004)

yes, EGG did take some liberties with coeus - the DDG version is nothing like the mythical one.  but to be honest, i like the DDG one better.  

but yes, i do think we should go along the route you're suggesting, for skills at least.

Craft (bookbinding) is in the PHB.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

another thought - instead of more knowledge skills, we can always give him more ranks in the ones he has...  also, i'm thinking that as sneaky as he is, he needs Hide and Move Silently.

how about this setup?  don't forget the extra mods i listed a couple posts above.

Abilities: Str 47 Dex 20 Con 44 Int 35 Wis 32 Cha 26
Skills: Balance +24, Bluff +30, Climb +23, Concentration +41, Craft (bookbinding) +33, Decipher Script +40, Diplomacy +16, Gather Information +30, Heal +29, Hide +36, Intimidate +41, Jump +40, Knowledge (arcana) +43, Knowledge (history) +30, Knowledge (religion) +41, Knowledge (the planes) +46, Listen +41, Move Silently +36, Perform (act) +40, Perform (oratory) +43, Search +41, Sense Motive +41, Spellcraft +34, Spot +41


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

That array looks great!


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

giving us a grand total of: 
Skills: Balance +29, Bluff +44, Climb +41, Concentration +58, Craft (bookbinding) +45, Decipher Script +52, Diplomacy +28, Gather Information +42, Heal +40, Hide +33, Intimidate +65, Jump +58, Knowledge (arcana) +55, Knowledge (history) +42, Knowledge (religion) +53, Knowledge (the planes) +58, Listen +52, Move Silently +41, Perform (act) +52, Perform (oratory) +55, Search +53, Sense Motive +52, Spellcraft +46, Spot +52


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

Did you remember the +12 bonus to Jump for having a land speed of 60 feet (+4 per 10 ft. over 30 ft.)?


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

no, i didn't.    is that based on size category?


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

Nope, just speed.  Here's the relevant text:  

"Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a –6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet."


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2004)

right, i looked that up after i posted my "duh, what's that do" question.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2004)

Don't sweat it...that's probably one of the most obscure rules that come into play for monster design.


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## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

Not too much left, let’s see what’s left…

Languages…?

CR – 26-28?

damage reduction 10 or 15?/epic

Treasure: Double standard?

Anything to add to this?
_This huge humanoid is horrifying in appearance, almost supernaturally ugly._

don’t really see anything else to fix/add…


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## Shade (Apr 21, 2004)

What is the language of fear?      How about Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, Giant, Infernal, and Undercommon?   (BTW, when comparing to other titans, I noticed that the CC version of Promy has no languages listed).

How about CR 27?

DR 15/epic (the infernal has the same number of HD and has 15/epic).

Yes to double standard treasure.

Weight 12,000 pounds (as the same-height storm giant).

Taking some creative license:

_This huge humanoid is horrifying in appearance.   His hair and eyes are jet-black, and his skin is dusky.   A palpable aura of terror surrounds him._


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## BOZ (Apr 21, 2004)

Guess we never gave prommy any languages… 

Anyway, updating in homebrews for one last look…


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## Shade (Apr 22, 2004)

I think he's finished.

Woo-hoo!  Only one titan left, and he's just an afterthought.


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## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

*Titan, Greater, Epimetheus*
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Good)
Hit Dice: 40d8+640 (820 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
Armor Class: 41 (-8 size, +6 Dex, +33 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 35
Base Attack/Grapple: +40/+75
Attack: Slam +51 melee (7d10+19)
Full Attack: 2 slams +51 melee (7d10+19)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: damage reduction 15?/epic, darkvision 120 ft, spell resistance 36, clay of creation
Saves: Fort +38 Ref +28 Will +35
Abilities: Str 48 Dex 23 Con 43 Int 34 Wis 37 Cha 30
Skills: 860
Feats: 7+7 epic

Environment: Twin Paradises of Bytopia
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double standard?
Alignment: Always chaotic good
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Epimetheus is a clumsy titan, though he is friendly and means well.  His name means “afterthought,” and was given to him to suggest that he does not always think before he acts.  He is the son of the Titan Iapetus and the nymph Clymene, and is the brother of the Titans Prometheus and Atlas.  

Epimetheus has no set home, and usually wanders the plane of Bytopia lost in his thoughts.

Epimetheus is 100 feet tall and weighs (725,000?) pounds.

Epimetheus speaks…

COMBAT 

Epimetheus's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as epic weapons for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.


EPIMETHEUS (greater titan; "Afterthought")
HIT POINTS: 345
CLERIC/DRUID: 10th level in each
FIGHTER: 14th level fighter
MAGIC-USER/ILLUSIONIST: 15th level magic-user

The bumbling brother of Prometheus, this greater titan means well but is not very careful with his creations. He can create as does Prometheus, but there is a 45% chance that the creature he makes will fight him! He is fond of mankind, and if he is paying attention when a person does a particularly difficult act (judge's option) there is a 5% chance that the god will reward the being with a ball of clay. This ball can be made into any 4th level creature, but there is a 60% chance that the creature will try to kill, rather than obey, its maker. All that is necessary is for the mortal to toss the ball to the ground and call on the creature that is desired. If it does not attack the person, it will obey him or her until its death. Epimetheus can strike with his fists for 9-90 points of damage each.

Epimetheus, the foolish Titan who allowed his wife, Pandora, to unleash all the evils on mankind.


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## BOZ (Apr 22, 2004)

by the way, i do remember fixing prommy's languages for the final posting: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=785

and for his brother, there's no time like the present to have an afterthought.


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## Filby (Apr 23, 2004)

About Epimetheus... there's some 2E information on him pertaining to Planescape in _Planes of Conflict_, where he's described in the DM's guide to Bytopia (no stats, but useful flavor).


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

I think he should have sorcerer levels, since studying doesn't fit his "bumbling" persona very well.

Speaking of "bumbling", how should we account for that?   I was thinking we could give him one or more of the following:

If Epi rolls a "1" on a skill check, it is an automatic failure.
Epi has to roll twice to confirm a critical hit.
Epi has an arcane spell failure chance, even when unarmored.
Epi suffers a -X competence penalty to Balance, Jump, and Tumble checks.
Should we lower his Dex and/or Int as well?


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## Filby (Apr 23, 2004)

I think perhaps Wis might be better decreased than Int. After all, he's not particularly stupid... he just lacks forethought.


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## BOZ (Apr 23, 2004)

Were you referring to this, or was there more to it that I didn’t see?

"One last power dwells here: the foolish Greek titan Epimetheus (which some bashers say translates as “afterthought”), who senselessly wanders both layers of Bytopia.  On a recent visit to Yeoman, the 20-foot figure attracted the attention of some Ciphers in from Elysium.  Upon noting Epimetheus’ “action without thought” mentality, these members of the Transcendent Order took to rattling their bone-boxes with him.  Having seemingly attained the thoughtless life all Ciphers aspire to, they’ve taken to studying the titan and his actions.  What this bodes for the Ciphers of the titan is a dark nobody’s got."


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## Filby (Apr 24, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Were you referring to this, or was there more to it that I didn’t see?
> 
> "One last power dwells here: the foolish Greek titan Epimetheus (which some bashers say translates as “afterthought”), who senselessly wanders both layers of Bytopia.  On a recent visit to Yeoman, the 20-foot figure attracted the attention of some Ciphers in from Elysium.  Upon noting Epimetheus’ “action without thought” mentality, these members of the Transcendent Order took to rattling their bone-boxes with him.  Having seemingly attained the thoughtless life all Ciphers aspire to, they’ve taken to studying the titan and his actions.  What this bodes for the Ciphers of the titan is a dark nobody’s got."




Hm... I had thought there was more, but I guess I was wrong.

My bad.


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

I didn’t say there wasn’t more, and I didn’t spend much time looking.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

Epimetheus can cast arcane spells as a 15th-level sorcerer (6/9/9/8/8/8/8/5; save DC 20 + spell level). He has access to the following spells: 0 – arcane mark, dancing lights, ghost sound, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, resistance; 1st – 5; 2nd – 5; 3rd – 4; 4th – 4; 5th – 4; 6th – 3; 7th – 3. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)




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## Shade (May 3, 2004)

I suggest we give him all of the standard greater titan spell-likes (and those for good-aligned greater titans).

Suggested remaining spells (0-level detailed in earlier post):
1st--expeditious retreat, floating disk, grease, jump, true strike
2nd--cat's grace, fog cloud, fox's cunning, mirror image, touch of idiocy
3rd--displacement, fly, haste, slow
4th--arcane eye, confusion, scrying, stone shape
5th--baleful polymorph, fabricate, major creation, transmute rock to mud
6th--flesh to stone, greater heroism, true seeing
7th--banishment, mass hold person, statue

Clay of Creation (Su): At will, as a full-round action, Epimetheus can shape clay into the form of any living non-unique creature that is not of extraplanar origin. The sculpture becomes a living creature with average statistics for its type. This creature will serve him until it dies, though Epimetheus usually sets it free after a specific service. Epimetheus may also set the creature to be a companion for another being of his choosing, at which point he relinquishes control over that creature.

However, Epimetheus is not as careful with his creations as his borther Prometheus, and there is a 45% chance each round that the creation goes berserk. The uncontrolled creation goes on a rampage, attacking the nearest living creature or smashing some object smaller than itself if no creature is within reach, then moving on to spread more destruction. Once a creation goes berserk, no known method can reestablish control.  This chance increases to 60% chance if control has been relinquished to another creature. 
Epimetheus can control only 50 HD worth of such creatures at a given time. If he exceeds this number, all the newly created creatures fall under his control, and any excess creatures from previous castings become uncontrolled. (Epimetheus chooses which creatures are released.)


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## BOZ (May 3, 2004)

Good stuff… the clay variation is along the lines of what I was thinking.  When I have some free time to really read it, I’ll see if that’s what I want to go with.


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## Shade (May 5, 2004)

> CLERIC/DRUID: 10th level in each



Do we want to give him either of these?


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## BOZ (May 5, 2004)

yeah, what the hell, give him one of those, plus 15th in either sorceror or wizard.


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## Shade (May 5, 2004)

I got ya covered on sorcerer up above.   His bro is a cleric/wizard, so let's make him a druid/sorcerer.

Spells: Epimetheus can cast divine spells as a 10th-level druid. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/8/7/6/6/5; save DC 23 + spell level): 0 – create water, detect magic, detect poison, know direction, mending, purify food and drink; 1st – detect animals or plants, entangle, faerie fire, goodberry, longstrider, pass without trace, produce flame, speak with animals; 2nd – barkskin, gust of wind, heat metal, soften earth and stone, spider climb, summon swarm, warp wood; 3rd – 6; 4th – 6; 5th – 5. 

More to come.


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## Filby (May 6, 2004)

As far as spells go, I'd just like to suggest that under his sorcerer list he get polymorph, shapechange, some kind of size-reduction spell, or anything to allow him to assume human form and/or size, since I recall seeing a Greek myth "family tree" of sorts noting that he had children with Pandora. Presumably he'd have to be a little smaller than titan-size to father children with a human woman, eh?


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## BOZ (May 6, 2004)

Yes, his wife is Pandora – in fact, IIRC he is the one that let her open her infamous Box.    I agree that he should have some kind of polymorph or change shape ability that lets him change size, as either a sorcerer spell or spell-like ability (don’t all the Titans we worked on have that in one shape or form?)

Weird thing about the Greek myths though – people could do seemingly impossible things all the time that would thoroughly violate the D&D rules.    so a human and a giant could copulate with no explanation required – but for practicality’s sake, we’ll make sure he has a “shrinky-dink” type of power.


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## Shade (May 6, 2004)

All greater titans have:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – chain lightning (DC 27), charm monster (DC 25), cure critical wounds (DC 25), fire storm (DC 28), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 26), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC 26), *polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour),* protection from energy, read magic; 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC 26); 1/day – gate, maze, meteor swarm (DC 30), plane shift, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (May 7, 2004)

right, that's what i meant.  and at least a couple of them have something even better - cronus does for example.


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## Shade (May 10, 2004)

I finished up my spells suggestions and compiled 'em.

Spells: Epimetheus can cast divine spells as a 10th-level druid. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/8/7/6/6/5; save DC 23 + spell level): 0 – create water, detect magic, detect poison, know direction, mending, purify food and drink; 1st – detect animals or plants, entangle, faerie fire, goodberry, longstrider, pass without trace, produce flame, speak with animals; 2nd – barkskin, gust of wind, heat metal, soften earth and stone, spider climb, summon swarm, warp wood; 3rd – call lightning, meld into stone, quench, remove disease, water breathing, wind wall; 4th – air walk, flame strike, freedom of movement, ice storm, rusting grasp, scrying; 5th – awaken, commune with nature, control winds, death ward, transmute mud to rock. 

Epimetheus can also cast arcane spells as a 15th-level sorcerer (6/9/9/8/8/8/8/5; save DC 20 + spell level). He has access to the following spells: 0 – arcane mark, dancing lights, ghost sound, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, resistance; 1st – expeditious retreat, floating disk, grease, jump, true strike; 2nd – cat's grace, fog cloud, fox's cunning, mirror image, touch of idiocy; 3rd – displacement, fly, haste, slow; 4th – arcane eye, confusion, scrying, stone shape; 5th – baleful polymorph, fabricate, major creation, transmute rock to mud; 6th – flesh to stone, greater heroism, true seeing; 7th – banishment, mass hold person, statue. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (May 17, 2004)

I definitely want to make finishing Epi a priority.  

first off before i get to working on his powers, i want to show you the flavor text i wrote for him.  i used the same site i had been using for all the titans to add some real mythology to the text:

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Epimetheus-(mythology)

Epimetheus is a clumsy titan, though he is friendly and means well.  His name means “afterthought,” or “hindsight,” and was given to him to suggest that he does not always think before he acts.  He is the son of the Titan Iapetus and the nymph Clymene, and is the brother of the Titans Prometheus and Atlas.  Though often seen as a bumbling fool, Epimetheus has an equal fondness for humans as his brother Prometheus’, and he always means well.

Epimetheus was charged with the responsibility of giving a positive trait to every animal.  But when it was time to give one to humans, he had already used up all the traits, so his brother Prometheus (who wanted to be sure that humans deserved to have something that no animal possessed) stole fire from Zeus to give as a gift to humankind.  As a punishment for Epimetheus’ poor planning he created Pandora, the first woman, and gave her to the foolish Titan as a wife.  Though Prometheus, who had his own punishment to serve for stealing the fire, warned his brother not to trust any gift from the Olympian gods, Epimetheus fell in love with and accepted Pandora despite the warnings.  Epimetheus took Pandora as his wife, and they had a daughter Pyrrha, who married her cousin Deucalion.  These two humans were the only survivors of the Great Deluge that Zeus sent to destroy the Golden Age.

When the Olympians were finished creating Pandora, the trickster god Hermes presented her with a special box and warned her not to open it.  Pandora was made to be curious however, and eventually Epimetheus foolishly allowed her to open the box.  The opening of this box released all kinds of misfortunes upon mankind, ruining their idyllic existence, though Pandora was able to close the box just in time to leave humans with a sense of hope in times of evil.


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## BOZ (May 17, 2004)

i've glanced over Shade's list of spells, and that all seems OK to me.  i'm going to have a look at the list of spell-likes, and also the clay of creation power.

Here is the standard list of spell-like abilities, plus those for good alignment.  For additional abilities, looking at the above writeup I’d suggest anything having to do with animals, and to a lesser extent anything that creates, gives, or restores life and health.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – chain lightning (DC X), charm monster (DC X), cure critical wounds (DC X), daylight, fire storm (DC X), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC X), holy smite (DC X), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (DC X), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, remove curse (DC X); 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC X); 1/day – gate, greater restoration, maze, meteor swarm (DC X), plane shift, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (May 17, 2004)

Excellent description. Much more thorough than D&DG.


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## BOZ (May 17, 2004)

is he actually mentioned in the DDG?  

comments on the spell-likes?


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## Shade (May 17, 2004)

Only as an afterthought.   

Seriously, though, I meant 1E D&DG.

I agree with the animal and health suggestions.  Here's a few:

Here's the animal spells culled from the druid lists for potential spell-like inclusion:

Calm Animals: Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal: Makes one animal your friend.
Detect Animals or Plants: Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Hide from Animals: Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Speak with Animals: You can communicate with animals.
Animal Messenger: Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Animal Trance: Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals.
Hold Animal: Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Reduce Animal: Shrinks one willing animal.
Dominate Animal: Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Magic Fang, Greater: One natural weapon of subject creature gets +1/three levels on attack and damage rolls (max +5).
Animal Growth: One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Awaken X: Animal or tree gains human intellect.
Commune with Nature: Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Animal Shapes: One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
Summon Nature’s Ally I-IX: Calls creature to fight.

Of these, at will--animal messenger, animal trance, calm animals, charm animal, detect animals and plants, greater magic fang, and speak with animals;  1/day--awaken.

He gets summon nature's ally spontaneously for his druid levels.

For the health-related abilities, I'd add:  At will--neutralize poison, remove disease; 1/day--regenerate, reincarnate.


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## BOZ (May 17, 2004)

cool.  

also, reworked the clay to make it a bit less harsh (sorry).    also, this sounds more like the original description (and is one of the main reasons i wanted to make sure we did epi after prommy):

Clay of Creation (Su): At will, as a full-round action, Epimetheus can shape clay into the form of any living non-unique creature that is not of extraplanar origin. The sculpture becomes a living creature with average statistics for its type. This creature will serve him until it dies, though Epimetheus usually sets it free after a specific service. 

Epimetheus can control only 50 HD worth of such creatures at a given time. If he exceeds this number, all the newly created creatures fall under his control, and any excess creatures from previous castings become uncontrolled. (Epimetheus chooses which creatures are released.)

Epimetheus may also create a ball of clay, at will, as a full-round action, to give to another character.  The character may activate the clay at any time by tossing the ball to the ground.  The clay will instantly take the form of any creature of 4 Hit Dice or less that the character desires, as described above.  This creature will serve the character until it dies, or until the character sets it free.

Something about Epimetheus’ clay makes the creatures unstable sometimes.  Any creature that Epimetheus makes for himself may go berserk at the moment of its creation if he does not succeed on a DC 44 Will save.  The uncontrolled creation goes on a rampage, attacking the nearest living creature or smashing some object smaller than itself if no creature is within reach, then moving on to spread more destruction. Once a creation goes berserk, no known method can reestablish control. A creature created from a ball of clay may go berserk at the moment of its creation if the character that created it does not succeed on a DC X Will save.


Note: with the Will save DC instead of percentage (you rarely see % nowadays, besides I think Will save suits it better), you’ll see that I tried to emulate a 45% miss chance.  Think about this: if his Will save is +35, and 10 is the average roll (50%) on a d20, then 45% must be a 9 instead; therefore a roll of 44 or higher should simulate a 45% chance of something going wrong?

As for the 60% chance, not sure what to do there.  It’s not important to get a scientifically accurate approximation… maybe beat a DC 20?  Or maybe we should give it a variable DC to keep it around 60% for all characters, or just stick with % for that one?


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Note: with the Will save DC instead of percentage (you rarely see % nowadays, besides I think Will save suits it better), you’ll see that I tried to emulate a 45% miss chance. Think about this: if his Will save is +35, and 10 is the average roll (50%) on a d20, then 45% must be a 9 instead; therefore a roll of 44 or higher should simulate a 45% chance of something going wrong?



Oddly enough, the golem's berserk chance (from which I borrowed the idea) uses a percentage chace.   

I'm fine with the Will save, though, if you wanna go that route for Epi.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As for the 60% chance, not sure what to do there. It’s not important to get a scientifically accurate approximation… maybe beat a DC 20? Or maybe we should give it a variable DC to keep it around 60% for all characters, or just stick with % for that one?



This is actually a case where the percentage would work better.  If we set the DC even remotely high, a low-level character would only have a sliim chance of making the save, making it go berserk much more often that usual.  I get the impression that he would often give a cow to a farmer, etc., to make their lives easier.  In this manner, Farmer Bob's family wouldn't survive long.   

And honestly, it doesn't really make sense why the monster would be less likely to go berserk for a high-level character than a commoner.


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## BOZ (May 18, 2004)

ok, you sold me.  

how does this look:

Spell-Like Abilities: At will – animal messenger, animal trance (DC 22), calm animals (DC 21), chain lightning (DC 26), charm animal (DC 21), charm monster (DC 24), cure critical wounds (DC 24), daylight, detect animals or plants, fire storm (DC 27), greater dispel magic, hold monster (DC 25), holy smite (DC 24), invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, neutralize poison, persistent image (DC 25), polymorph (humanoid forms only, duration 1 hour), protection from energy, read magic, remove curse (DC 23), remove disease (DC 23), speak with animals; 3/day – etherealness, freedom of movement, greater teleport, summon nature’s ally IX, word of chaos (DC 27); 1/day – awaken (DC 25), gate, greater restoration, maze, meteor swarm (DC 29), plane shift, regenerate (DC 27), reincarnate, wind walk. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (May 18, 2004)

hmm?


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## Shade (May 18, 2004)

It looks good.  Sorry, I've been a bit slow responding today, since I've got to DM tonight.  These monsters don't advance themselves, you know.


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## BOZ (May 18, 2004)

you're advancing Titans?   

okie dokie.  

the two biggest obstacles to completion remaining are the usual ones; skills and feats:

Skills: 860
There are the standards:
Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot

Plus, some possibles:
Craft (basketweaving, heh?, maybe carpentry, definitely sculpting)
Knowledge (arcana, nature, religion, the planes)
Perform (maybe comedy, heh, or wind instruments, or sing)
Escape Artist, Survival, Swim


Feats: 7+7 epic
(I would avoid anything that gives him a sense of intuition or awareness of his surroundings, such as Alertness and Combat Expertise)

some ideas (culled this list from the other Titans – keep in mind prerequisites!):
Feats: Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave/Improved Sunder/Improved Bull Rush/Awesome Blow; (tree)
Weapon Focus (slam)/Weapon Specialization (slam)/Greater Weapon Specialization (slam);
Improved Unarmed Strike/Improved Grapple
Combat Casting, Empower Spell-Like Ability, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Track,

Epic Feats: Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus (slam), Epic Weapon Specialization (slam), Fast Healing, Improved Darkvision, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Tracker, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Spellcasting Harrier


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## Shade (May 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you're advancing Titans?



I wish...it probably would have gone faster.  I ended up putting together a great wyrm spinewyrm, added 10 fighter levels to a mur-zhagul troll, and a 21st-level Red Wizard of Thay and his henchmen.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: 860
> There are the standards:
> Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot
> 
> ...



I think we should try to preserve his "bumbling" nature. Since he totally fell for the Pandora fiasco, I wouldn't give him particularly high Sense Motive. Handle Animal might be worth adding, since he's tasked with giving positive traits to animals.

I like Craft (sculpting), Handle Animal, Knowledge (arcana, nature, religion, the planes), Perform (comedy, oratory, sing), Survival, and Swim in addition to the titan standards.

Suggested Feats: Animal Affinity, Craft Wondrous Item, Empower Spell-Like Ability (cure critical wounds), Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (greater teleport), Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Track.

Suggested Epic Feats: Craft Epic Wondrous Item, Epic Skill Focus (Craft [sculpting]), Epic Fortitude, Improved Darkvision, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Tracker.


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## BOZ (May 20, 2004)

how about these ranks:
Balance +39, Bluff +29, Climb +39, Concentration +36, Craft (sculpting) +43, Decipher Script +35, Diplomacy +29, Gather Information +29, Handle Animal +36, Heal +29, Intimidate +36, Jump +39, Knowledge (arcana) +39, Knowledge (nature) +39, Knowledge (religion) +36, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Listen +29, Perform (comedy) +35, Perform (oratory) +29, Perform (sing) +29, Search +29, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +39, Spot +29, Survival +39, Swim +29

I’m fine with your skill selections.    they work for a woodsy-outdoorsy survivor type like epi.


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## Mythmere (May 20, 2004)

Have you guys indexed or otherwise posted the results of this work?  It's phenomenal, by the way.


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## BOZ (May 20, 2004)

yes.    you can find all of the titans we've converted, except for Epimetheus who we're still working on, and many many other 3.0 and 3.5 conversions right here: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/index.php   enjoy and i hope you find it useful!  stick around for discussions if you feel like it.


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## Shade (May 20, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how about these ranks:
> Balance +39, Bluff +29, Climb +39, Concentration +36, Craft (sculpting) +43, Decipher Script +35, Diplomacy +29, Gather Information +29, Handle Animal +36, Heal +29, Intimidate +36, Jump +39, Knowledge (arcana) +39, Knowledge (nature) +39, Knowledge (religion) +36, Knowledge (the planes) +29, Listen +29, Perform (comedy) +35, Perform (oratory) +29, Perform (sing) +29, Search +29, Sense Motive +14, Spellcraft +39, Spot +29, Survival +39, Swim +29
> 
> I’m fine with your skill selections.  they work for a woodsy-outdoorsy survivor type like epi.



Those ranks look real good.


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## BOZ (May 20, 2004)

Remaining items I see, before I post in homebrews…

Damage reduction 15?/epic
Challenge Rating: 28-29?
Treasure: Double standard?

Want to write up a description?
This colossal humanoid…

Epimetheus is 100 feet tall and weighs (725,000?) pounds.

Epimetheus speaks… (Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant standard – Sylvan also seems likely)

Suggestions for Combat text?


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## Shade (May 20, 2004)

Yes to damage reduction 15/epic and double standard treasure.

He's about equal to Coeus in power, so I'd give him the same Challenge Rating of 27.

_This colossal humanoid bears a friendly, relaxed countenance. He dresses finely, but his clothes are somewhat disheveled.  His eyes seem vacant, as if in a daydream._

Epimetheus is 100 feet tall and weighs 725,000 pounds.

Epimetheus speaks Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, Giant, and Sylvan.

Combat Text:  Epimetheus prefers to avoid combat, but if forced into battle, or if animals or innocent creatures are in danger, he joins the fray.  Epimetheus uses his spells and spell-like abilities to summon animals and aid them in battle, while battering adversaries with his massive fists.


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## BOZ (May 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> His eyes seem vacant, as if in a daydream.




nice touch.  

ok, posted in homebrews!  check it out, tell me what you think.

(do'h, what was the jump speed bonus again?  +4 x3?)


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## Shade (May 20, 2004)

Yes, you are correct on the Jump bonuses.   

Shouldn't his slam do Str and 1/2 since it is his sole natural weapon?

Otherwise, I think he looks good.


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## Mythmere (May 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yes.    you can find all of the titans we've converted, except for Epimetheus who we're still working on, and many many other 3.0 and 3.5 conversions right here: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/index.php   enjoy and i hope you find it useful!  stick around for discussions if you feel like it.




I certainly will.  I'm working on a campaign to start at 6th and go eventually epic.  I'd love to throw some of the old 1E favorites in as potential enemies and see the fear in the eyes of old school gamers realizing that they might meet up with Orcus again twenty years later, only this time it ain't junior high school.  So the titans are a bit less interesting except as stat blocks, which is, of course, something of a debased use of your work.  Nevertheless, having the stats to apply to a titan-analogue wearing something other than a tunic is still very helpful.


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## Clifford (May 26, 2004)

*Jormy*

OMG! are we Now done with the titans? Cliff Holds his breath in nervous anticipation of convering Jormundgandur.)

Cliff


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## Clifford (Jun 1, 2004)

Still holding breath   

Cliff


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## BOZ (Jun 1, 2004)

don't kill yourself now: http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=88487


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2005)

Jormungandr is growing impatient.


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## BOZ (Feb 28, 2005)

i did agree to take on this crazy task didn't i?  hmm, more on this after we finish up the hallucigenia.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2005)

The Midgard Serpent waits for no one.  (OK, it does, but it only waits so long before it gets antsy).


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2005)

are you sure you want to deal with this nightmare?  

JORMUNGANDR (Midgard Serpent)
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: See below
HIT DICE/POINTS: Head: 300 points; Body: infinite
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5-50
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Constriction, poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 99%
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (25,000 miles long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/55,000

Jormungandr was the offspring of Loki and the giantess Angur-boda, and was the brother of the Fenris Wolf and Hel. By custom Odin could not slay divine progeny, but he feared that the monster would cause trouble and threw him into the sea when he was young. Jormungandr grew unchecked, until at last he circled the earth and could bite his own tail. It is the writhing of this great serpent that causes the tempests. Thor has tried many times to slay him, but the Norns have foretold that he will not succeed until the day of Ragnarok, when he will drown in a sea of venom from the dying serpent.
Since the Midgard Serpent circles the world, he can shift his body and locate his head anywhere he desires in one melee round. The head is the only vulnerable spot on this monster, since he regenerates all damage in the melee round after it is inflicted; this means that 300 or more points of damage must be delivered to its head in one round in order to kill it. If Jormungandr is slain, all beings within 50 feet of the head must save vs. poison at -5 or die, as the creature spews forth its venom. Attacks on the body of the serpent can be made, but they will prove fruitless as the body (like the head) will regenerate all lost hit points in the next melee round, even if totally severed.
Jormungandr bites once per round for 5-50 points of damage, and anyone thus bitten must save versus poison at - 5 or die within two melee rounds from the extremely potent venom. The serpent can also make one constriction attack per round (near its head or anywhere along its body length), doing 10-100 points. It attacks as a 16+ HD monster.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2005)

Yeah, I figure we just make the head a Colossal dragon and start from there.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2005)

the important thing we need to figure out before we go making his head a separate creature, is how we’re going to work this guy out.  I have a few ideas.  

One, we could make his head the creature and his body essentially an indestructible inanimate object.  Only his head would attack or be attacked, and all stats and combat resolution would apply to the head only.  He wouldn’t need that many Hit Dice since it’s just the head.

Two, we could make him all one creature defying even the limits of Colossal.    we’d pile on a ridiculous amount of Hit Dice, with a Dex of maybe 10, and Str and Con really high up there.  I would keep the “300 hp to sever” idea in this case.

Either way, he would regenerate sick amounts of damage every round (in the 100’s at least), be immune to critical hits and a bunch of other things (some with high resistances instead).  His attacks would do just insane amounts of damage and kill anything non-epic pretty quickly.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2005)

I do think that we can get by with just statting out the head, mainly because it only has a bite attack and it is the only vulnerable part.

I agree with pretty much everything else you said.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I do think that we can get by with just statting out the head, mainly because it only has a bite attack and it is the only vulnerable part.




“vulnerable” in so far as, if you do somehow do 300 points of damage to it in a single round you can behead the creature… it still regenerates and would have the same immunities/resistances/DR/SR/natural armor/whatever that the rest of the body has.  This is a vulnerability of degrees – I would kill to have a vulnerability like that.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2005)

Yeah, me too.  In fact, most superheroes would kill for that.  I know Thor would.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 1, 2005)

especially since he's the one stuck fighting this thing.


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2005)

Exactamundo.


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2005)

OK, here we go.  

Speed and reach will be a little weird, but this is one of many “challenges” we must fix.  

Also, I’m of a mind that something a deity can’t easily beat in combat should have immunities similar to a deity, no?    you know, such as: transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.  They also have SR 32 + DR and resistance to fire 20 + DR.  we may want to consider adding other deific attributes, such as deflection bonus to AC based on Cha mod.  Of course, he doesn’t have to have all of this stuff, but he at least needs to be able to stand up to Thor and everything he can do.  I figure he should have at least as much HD as Thor too (60).  He should have a higher Str (46) and Con (32) than Thor – although with his belt, his Str goes up to 92 (which we may or may not want to replicate for Jormy)

some preliminary stats for Jormungandr:

*Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent*
Colossal Dragon
Hit Dice: Xd12+X (LOTS hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: X ft (X squares)
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (X+X plus poison)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: constrict, improved grab, death throes, poison
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/X, darkvision 60 ft., instantaneous movement, low-light vision, regeneration X, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Any land and aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2005)

Agreed on all the resistances and immunities business.

We could actually make him Colossal+, like the epic dragons.  Speaking of which, here are the stats of the great wyrm epic dragons.  He should at least be on par with them.

Force:      Str 75 Dex 10 Con 61 Int 62 Wis 63 Cha 62 
Prismatic:  Str 73 Dex 10 Con 65 Int 64 Wis 65 Cha 64

Both have damage reduction 25/epic.

The bite should do ridiculous amounts of damage.  A Colossal+ dragon's bite is 8d6, which is surprisingly close to his 5-50.


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> We could actually make him Colossal+, like the epic dragons.




Colossal+?  How does that work?
The CC only goes up to Colossal (drop down box for size when entering stats) – if we used that size category, I would have to indicate it later in the text.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, here are the stats of the great wyrm epic dragons. He should at least be on par with them.
> 
> Force: Str 75 Dex 10 Con 61 Int 62 Wis 63 Cha 62
> Prismatic: Str 73 Dex 10 Con 65 Int 64 Wis 65 Cha 64
> ...




I agree with all of that.    8d6 is just fine for damage, and his Str bonus would push it far beyond that.


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2005)

Here ya go, right outta the Epic SRD so it's fair game.    

"Epic dragons share all the combat characteristics of standard dragons. Even wyrmling epic dragons are Huge, however, and are capable of making tail sweep and crush attacks. Although there is no size category larger than Colossal, the oldest epic dragons have a greater reach and deal more damage with their attacks than other Colossal dragons, as shown on the Epic Dragon Face and Reach and Epic Dragon Attacks tables below. In addition, the breath weapon of the oldest epic dragons is a larger cone than most Colossal dragons possess. The size modifier for these dragons remains –8."

Epic Dragon Space and Reach 
Colossal+ 	30 ft./20 ft. 
(Note that this is probably still 3E, so it should be 30 ft./30 ft. now)

Epic Dragon Attacks 
Size 	1 Bite	2 Claws	2 Wings	1 Tail Slap  1 Crush  1 Tail Sweep
Colossal+  8d6	4d8	4d6	4d8	   8d6	   4d6

Epic Dragon Breath Weapons 
Size 	Cone* (Length) 
Colossal+ 	80 ft. 
* A cone is as high and wide as its length.


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2005)

so, essentially, Colossal+ is meaningless to anything except dragons that advance by age category.    well, at least we can steal some ideas from it.


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2005)

Yeah, for the most part.  We can still give him the greater reach (note my editing after you replied), and greater baselines for damage.


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2005)

For stats, how about Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65?  I don’t think the mental stats need to be as high as those dragons’ though – that would make him far superior mentally than the gods, and I don’t want that.    his favorite opponent, Thor, has Int 25, Wis 28, and Cha 28.  Odin, however, has Int 49, Wis 30, and Cha 29 – I would expect Jormy to fall between the two gods.  For reference, Jormy’s father Loki has Int 29, Wis 27, and Cha 44 – so maybe some of Daddy’s Cha can rub off on Junior.  

We need to figure out what to do about the constriction attack. “The serpent can also make one constriction attack per round (near its head or anywhere along its body length), doing 10-100 points.”  That’s one of the few items that bother me about only statting up the head, but I guess there are ways to work around even that.

HD – minimum of 60, want to place a number?


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> For stats, how about Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65?  I don’t think the mental stats need to be as high as those dragons’ though – that would make him far superior mentally than the gods, and I don’t want that.    his favorite opponent, Thor, has Int 25, Wis 28, and Cha 28.  Odin, however, has Int 49, Wis 30, and Cha 29 – I would expect Jormy to fall between the two gods.  For reference, Jormy’s father Loki has Int 29, Wis 27, and Cha 44 – so maybe some of Daddy’s Cha can rub off on Junior.




Physical stats sound good, and I agree with your ideas for mental stats.  Maybe Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> We need to figure out what to do about the constriction attack. “The serpent can also make one constriction attack per round (near its head or anywhere along its body length), doing 10-100 points.”  That’s one of the few items that bother me about only statting up the head, but I guess there are ways to work around even that.




Yeah, that troubles me too.  Maybe we can extrapolate (at a near-infinite level) from the purple worm, which is 80 feet long, yet only has a space/reach of 20/15 and has a tail attack.  Perhaps Jormy's tail just appears at some point within range of his senses to attack.  We could give it a reach equal to its longest vision/blindsense/tremorsense/etc.  Whaddya think?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> HD – minimum of 60, want to place a number?




Using the ol' "divide by 4.5" rule yields 66, which isn't a bad number.  The non-deity Bahamut has 53 HD and Tiamat 49 HD, so he eclipses the other badass unique dragons.  That also puts him in line with ancient force and prismatic dragons.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2005)

I went ahead and figured out its ability modifiers for its ridiculously high Str and Con.   

Str 75 (+35)
Con 65 (+27)

Assuming we go with 66 HD, it would have 66d12+1,782 (2,211 hp).   That sounds crazy high, but it is actually less than the great wyrm force dragon and the wyrm and great wyrm prismatic dragons!    

It would have 23 feats.   I've got a few in mind.


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Physical stats sound good, and I agree with your ideas for mental stats. Maybe Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36?




good deal.   



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, that troubles me too. Maybe we can extrapolate (at a near-infinite level) from the purple worm, which is 80 feet long, yet only has a space/reach of 20/15 and has a tail attack. Perhaps Jormy's tail just appears at some point within range of his senses to attack. We could give it a reach equal to its longest vision/blindsense/tremorsense/etc. Whaddya think?




that does give me the idea of giving him blindsense/sight around his entire body - I mean, his head is only in one place, while his body is many many miles long - it would suck if he couldn't detect creatures walking up on his body! 

Let's make things simple and say that his body is extremely flexible rather than rigid, and he can automatically form a coil at any point along his body (in fact, maybe he is much longer than the world's circumference, and he coils naturally along his entire length).  That would give him the ability to make maybe a slam attack against any number of creatures (one per round though), so that he may constrict them.  I would put the range equal to his blindy-vision at that point. 

Given his grapple check below, constriction is just about a death sentence to anyone.   



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Using the ol' "divide by 4.5" rule yields 66, which isn't a bad number. The non-deity Bahamut has 53 HD and Tiamat 49 HD, so he eclipses the other badass unique dragons. That also puts him in line with ancient force and prismatic dragons.




66 HD is a good number.    I would hardly say he eclipses Bahamut and Tiamat as gods, because they have other powers that he lacks, but perhaps he does so as non-deity dragons. 

For regeneration, how about making it work against everything except say "good and bludgeoning" weapons, so that Thor's hammer will hurt him fully? 

For the head severing, I was thinking that Thor does 116 damage with every hit, and on a x3 critical he would do 348, so we need to make the sever more than that - say, 400 damage on a single hit.  Yes, the point is that this is an almost impossible feat.   

*Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent* 
Colossal Dragon 
Hit Dice: 66d12+1,782 (2,211 hp) 
Initiative: +0 
Speed: X ft (X squares) 
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +X natural, +13 deflection), touch X, flat-footed X 
Base Attack/Grapple: +66/+114 
Attack: Bite +90 melee (8d6+32 plus poison) 
Full Attack: Bite +90 melee (8d6+32 plus poison) 
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft 
Special Attacks: constrict, improved grab, death throes, poison 
Special Qualities: damage reduction 25/epic, darkvision X ft., immunities, instantaneous movement, low-light vision, regeneration X, spell resistance X 
Saves: Fort +62 Ref +35 Will +44 
Abilities: Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65, Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36 
Skills: 966 
Feats: 23


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## BOZ (Mar 3, 2005)

oh, you sneaky devil you.


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2005)

Heh.    

Alright, now we're rocking.

Speed:  Uhh....any thoughts?

AC:  The force and prismatic dragons of near his HD have a natural armor bonus of 64-72 and a deflection bonus of +22-27.

Space/Reach:  30 ft./30 ft. (head only?)

SA:  Add frightful presence
SQ:  Add blindsense x ft. and replace low-light vision with keen senses.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that does give me the idea of giving him blindsense/sight around his entire body - I mean, his head is only in one place, while his body is many many miles long - it would suck if he couldn't detect creatures walking up on his body!




Agreed!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Let's make things simple and say that his body is extremely flexible rather than rigid, and he can automatically form a coil at any point along his body (in fact, maybe he is much longer than the world's circumference, and he coils naturally along his entire length).  That would give him the ability to make maybe a slam attack against any number of creatures (one per round though), so that he may constrict them.  I would put the range equal to his blindy-vision at that point.
> 
> Given his grapple check below, constriction is just about a death sentence to anyone.




I like it!   Thank goodness for _freedom of movement_.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> 66 HD is a good number.    I would hardly say he eclipses Bahamut and Tiamat as gods, because they have other powers that he lacks, but perhaps he does so as non-deity dragons.
> 
> For regeneration, how about making it work against everything except say "good and bludgeoning" weapons, so that Thor's hammer will hurt him fully?




Perfect!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the head severing, I was thinking that Thor does 116 damage with every hit, and on a x3 critical he would do 348, so we need to make the sever more than that - say, 400 damage on a single hit.  Yes, the point is that this is an almost impossible feat.




Sounds reasonable (at this extreme level).


----------



## BOZ (Mar 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Speed: Uhh....any thoughts?




actually, yes.    I was thinking there are two ways we can go about his speed.

1.	Jormy is so big now, that he really cannot move his whole mass as he pleases.  He can actually move pretty quickly, but cannot turn – he is stuck in the same “circle” around the globe that he has been in for some time.  This allows him to rotate around the planet, and can put his head along that “circle” as he pleases as a full round action.

2.	Jormy can move as quickly as he pleases, placing his head at any spot on the planet he wishes.  This is much more useful, but can be… rather destructive to the planet.    as with the above one, his movement is a full round action to place his head where he wants.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> AC: The force and prismatic dragons of near his HD have a natural armor bonus of 64-72 and a deflection bonus of +22-27.




as you said before, they have a much higher Cha score than we gave Jormy, which might account for the higher deflection bonus.  As for the natural armor, I approve muchly.    of course, Thor will still hit him just about every time with an attack bonus of +109 on the first hit…



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Space/Reach: 30 ft./30 ft. (head only?)




yeah, we could use that for the head, since even his head is likely to be Colossal.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> SA: Add frightful presence
> SQ: Add blindsense x ft. and replace low-light vision with keen senses.




For the blindsense, we should state that it extends to 60 feet away from his entire body (not a 60 foot radius).  I think that should be sufficient, and as said before the slam/constrict should have a reach equal to the blindsense.


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> actually, yes.    I was thinking there are two ways we can go about his speed.
> 
> 1.	Jormy is so big now, that he really cannot move his whole mass as he pleases.  He can actually move pretty quickly, but cannot turn – he is stuck in the same “circle” around the globe that he has been in for some time.  This allows him to rotate around the planet, and can put his head along that “circle” as he pleases as a full round action.
> 
> 2.	Jormy can move as quickly as he pleases, placing his head at any spot on the planet he wishes.  This is much more useful, but can be… rather destructive to the planet.    as with the above one, his movement is a full round action to place his head where he wants.




Why not both, using either as he pleases?    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> as you said before, they have a much higher Cha score than we gave Jormy, which might account for the higher deflection bonus.  As for the natural armor, I approve muchly.    of course, Thor will still hit him just about every time with an attack bonus of +109 on the first hit…




Yeah, it appears for the epic dragons that deflection bonus=Cha modifier.  That wold give Jormy a +13 bonus if we decide to give him one.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, we could use that for the head, since even his head is likely to be Colossal.




Cool.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the blindsense, we should state that it extends to 60 feet away from his entire body (not a 60 foot radius).  I think that should be sufficient, and as said before the slam/constrict should have a reach equal to the blindsense.




Gotcha.  That makes sense to me.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 4, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Why not both, using either as he pleases?




are you trying to hurt my head?  


OK, which of these should he have immunity or resistance to?
transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, fire, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.  

His regeneration should be 400 points per round, in case a creature manages to sever his head with the wrong type of weapon.  

Take a look at what I’ve written up so far and tell me if it’s OK:

COMBAT
By coiling up his mass, Jormungandr can make slam attacks against any creature within 60 feet of his body, at any point, and can grapple more than one target at a time.

Jormungandr’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

An opponent can attack a Jormungandr’s head with a sunder attempt as if it was a weapon. Jormungandr’s head has 400 hit points. If a creature successfully deals enough lethal damage to destroy Jormungandr’s head, he dies.

Constrict (Ex): Jormungandr deals X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Frightful Presence (Ex): Jormungandr can unsettle foes with his mere presence.  This ability takes effect automatically whenever Jormungandr attacks.  Creatures within X feet of Jorumangandr are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than him.

A potentially effected creature that succeeds on a DC 56 Will save remains immune to his frightful presence for 24 hours.  On a failure, creatures become (panicked?) for X rounds.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Jormungandr must hit with his slam attack.  He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

Blindsense (Ex): Jormungandr can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet from his body.  Opponents he can’t actually see still have total concealment against Jormungandr.

Keen Senses (Ex): Jormungandr sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light.  He also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Regeneration (Ex): Good bludgeoning weapons deal normal damage to Jormungandr.
If any part of Jormungandr is severed from the rest of his body, it reattaches instantly if not completely separated from the body.


----------



## Shade (Mar 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> are you trying to hurt my head?




No, I'm just trying to boggle your mind.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, which of these should he have immunity or resistance to?
> transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, fire, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.




Let me get back to you on this...I'm checking mythology sites for more info on Jormy.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> His regeneration should be 400 points per round, in case a creature manages to sever his head with the wrong type of weapon.




Sweet.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Take a look at what I’ve written up so far and tell me if it’s OK:





COMBAT
By coiling up his mass, Jormungandr can make slam attacks against any creature within 60 feet of his body, at any point, and can grapple more than one target at a time.

Jormungandr’s natural weapons are treated as epic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

An opponent can attack a Jormungandr’s head with a sunder attempt as if it was a weapon. Jormungandr’s head has 400 hit points. If a creature successfully deals enough lethal damage to destroy Jormungandr’s head, he dies.

Constrict (Ex): Jormungandr deals X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Frightful Presence (Ex): Jormungandr can unsettle foes with his mere presence.  This ability takes effect automatically whenever Jormungandr attacks.  Creatures within X feet of Jorumangandr are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than him.

A potentially effected creature that succeeds on a DC 56 Will save remains immune to his frightful presence for 24 hours.  On a failure, creatures become (panicked?) for X rounds.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Jormungandr must hit with his slam attack.  He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

Blindsense (Ex): Jormungandr can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet from his body.  Opponents he can’t actually see still have total concealment against Jormungandr.

Keen Senses (Ex): Jormungandr sees four times as well as a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light.  He also has darkvision out to 120 feet.

Regeneration (Ex): Good bludgeoning weapons deal normal damage to Jormungandr.
If any part of Jormungandr is severed from the rest of his body, it reattaches instantly if not completely separated from the body.[/QUOTE]

This all looks good thus far.


----------



## Shade (Mar 4, 2005)

Additional stuff I've gathered from mythology sites:

"Not only could Jörmungand kill its victim by crushing constriction, the Midgard Serpent's venom was lethal even against the gods."

We might need to explain in its poison entry that even creatures immune to poison are vulnerable (but maybe get a bonus on their save?).

"The Midgard Serpent was the largest serpent in the universe. Its name was either Jörmungand (Jormungand) or Jörmungandr. The moment of its birth, the Aesir abducted Jörmungand and Fenrir. Odin threw Jörmungand into the sea. Jörmungand grew so long, that its body encircled the entire world (Earth), which was why it was, called the Midgard Serpent ("World Serpent").

Thor once tried to kill Jörmungand with his mighty warhammer, Mjollnir, but failed to harm the serpent. Thor immediately threw Midgard Serpent back into the sea. Thor would later meet his death at Ragnarök, when he succumbed to the deadly venom of Jörmungand."

Flavor text.

"Thor's conflict with Jormungandr does not end with this story however. Thor and Jormungandr are destined to meet once more, at Ragnarok, (Ragnarok is the Norse equivalent of Armageddon) where Thor will finally succeed in slaying the Midgard Serpent, but in the course of the battle, will inhale so much of the dragon's poisonous breath that, as he attempts to walk away in victory, he will fall down dead on the ninth step."

"Thor and Jormungand meet at Ragnarok, where Thor kills the serpent, but then succumbs to the venom, which it has spat at him."

It appears that he also can spread his poison via breath weapon, in addition to spreading it with his bite and blood.

"The third major dragon of the Norse mythos is the World Serpent or Midgard Serpent, Jormungandr. Midgard was the Norse name for the realm of humans, and Jormungandr was known as the Midgard Serpent because he lived in the waters which surrounded the human world and he grew to be so large that he stretched all the way around Midgard and, as a manifestation of the Ouroborus, he began to devour his own tail."

"When Thor was convinced that they had rowed far enough to be in the vicinity of the Midgard Serpent, he put down the oars, baited his hook with the bull's head, and cast it into the ocean. Jormungandr immediately took the bait, and a fierce battle ensued. Thor braced himself so hard against the floor of the row boat that his legs broke right through its planks. Jormungandr reared its massive head out of the water, and Thor and the great serpent were brought face to face. Thor was just about to strike a death blow to Jormungandr with his great hammer, Mjolnir, when Hymir, fearing for his life, took out his knife and cut Thor's line. Thor threw Mjolnir, but it was too late. Jormungandr had already escaped and returned to the depths of the ocean."

Since Jormy seems to reside mostly in the ocean, I think we should give him water breathing or the Aquatic/Water subtype and amphibious quality.

"Jormundgandr is the son of the mischievous God Loki and the Frost Goddess Angrboda. He is a monstrous serpent, destined to die by Thor's hand at the battle of Ragnarok. "

Flavor text.

"Jormungandr is sometimes pictured with three heads, symbolic of his existence in all three realms of Norse Cosmology."

Not sure if this has any impact.

"...its movements were responsible for fatal storms and tidal waves. "

Maybe something like this, from the MM2's leviathan?

Swamping (Ex): Once every 12 rounds, a leviathan can create waves up to 40 feet high by rising from the water and then slamming its enormous tail flukes or head against the surface. This causes any sailing vessel within 300 feet to capsize if the character steering it fails a Profession (sailor) check (DC 15). A modifier applies to this check, based on type of ship, as follows: rowboat -2, warship +0, galley or keelboat +3, sailing ship +5, longship +7. Any creature flung into the water by a capsizing ship must succeed at a Swim check (DC 15) or immediately begin drowning.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 4, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> No, I'm just trying to boggle your mind.




  well, either he can move anywhere he wants, or he can't. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Additional stuff I've gathered from mythology sites:
> 
> "Not only could Jörmungand kill its victim by crushing constriction, the Midgard Serpent's venom was lethal even against the gods."
> 
> We might need to explain in its poison entry that even creatures immune to poison are vulnerable (but maybe get a bonus on their save?).




see, now that even supports what I was saying before.  Wonderful!   let me give that a try.

“Epic Poison” (Ex): Contact or injury, Fortitude DC 70, initial damage X Con, secondary damage X Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Jormungandr’s poison is so deadly that all living creatures, even deities and creatures with an immunity to poison, must succeed on the saving throw or take the listed damage.

thiking… Thor’s Fort save is 61, so even he would have to worry about a DC that high.  

I like the flavor text info that you posted, but I don’t see a whole lot about immunities/resistances (once again: transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, fire, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It appears that he also can spread his poison via breath weapon, in addition to spreading it with his bite and blood.




I think I’ll opt to leave that out.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Since Jormy seems to reside mostly in the ocean, I think we should give him water breathing or the Aquatic/Water subtype and amphibious quality.




amphibious, definitely, because he can be on land and water (at the same time).    Aquatic subtype maybe…?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Not sure if this has any impact.




I’ll leave out the three heads part too. The thing about mythology is that it tends to vary a lot by source – you kind of have to pick and choose which parts you want.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> "...its movements were responsible for fatal storms and tidal waves. "
> 
> Maybe something like this, from the MM2's leviathan?
> 
> Swamping (Ex): Once every 12 rounds, a leviathan can create waves up to 40 feet high by rising from the water and then slamming its enormous tail flukes or head against the surface. This causes any sailing vessel within300 feet to capsize if the character steering it fails a Profession (sailor)check (DC 15). A modifier applies to this check, based on type of ship, as follows: rowboat -2, warship +0, galley or keelboat +3, sailing ship +5,longship +7. Any creature flung into the water by a capsizing ship must succeed at a Swim check (DC 15) or immediately begin drowning.




I don’t know about that.  Besides, I think his ability to smash just by moving would be far more dramatic – like smashing whole towns in one movement and such.


----------



## Shade (Mar 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> well, either he can move anywhere he wants, or he can't.




Gotch.  After trolling the mythology sites, I'd go with #2, as it was mentioned in the myths that his movement was destructive to the planet, what with tidal waves and whatnot.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> see, now that even supports what I was saying before.  Wonderful!   let me give that a try.
> 
> “Epic Poison” (Ex): Contact or injury, Fortitude DC 70, initial damage X Con, secondary damage X Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> ...




Good writeup, and yes, Thor had better watch his back.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I like the flavor text info that you posted, but I don’t see a whole lot about immunities/resistances (once again: transmutation, energy drain, ability drain, ability damage, mind-affecting effects, electricity, cold, acid, disease, fire, poison, stunning, sleep, paralysis, death effects, disintegration, and banishment/imprisonment effects.)




True that.  I expected to find more hints.  Anyway, I think he should definitely be immune to all death effects and other effects that instantly destroy him.  Paralysis and sleep are covered by the dragon type, so he's already immune to them.  I don't know if he warrants immunity to all the energy types, though, but I don't have a problem with it if he does.  Imprisonment might be a reasonable vulnerability, since he kind of was imprisoned on Earth.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think I’ll opt to leave that out.




The breath weapon, you mean?   I kinda like it...makes him more dragonny.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> amphibious, definitely, because he can be on land and water (at the same time).    Aquatic subtype maybe…?




Either Aquatic or Water.  Most of the true dragons have an elemental subtype, so I could see water.   But since he isn't a true dragon, we could just do aquatic.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’ll leave out the three heads part too. The thing about mythology is that it tends to vary a lot by source – you kind of have to pick and choose which parts you want.




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t know about that.  Besides, I think his ability to smash just by moving would be far more dramatic – like smashing whole towns in one movement and such.




Should we give him crush then, and maybe ramming?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Gotch. After trolling the mythology sites, I'd go with #2, as it was mentioned in the myths that his movement was destructive to the planet, what with tidal waves and whatnot.
> 
> Should we give him crush then, and maybe ramming?




OK, here’s the take I’m having with him.  When he moves, usually, he just moves without any real thought as to the effects his movement has on the planet.  I’d say he spends most of the time just sitting there chawin’ on his tail.  but when something inspires him to move (possibly an earth shattering event), there is hell to pay for the unfortunates who get in the way.  Earthquakes, tsunamis, you get the idea.  Simple crushing isn’t enough, but it’s a start as an idea.  Remember, he must be thousands of miles long – his weight would be incalculable, and anything he runs over is just kaput.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Good writeup, and yes, Thor had better watch his back.




  how about the damage?  It should be deadly enough that it would kill most creatures in one dose.  2d6?  Or maybe even worse at 3d6?  Even at 2d6, a bite attack would kill most non-epic creatures, I think.  Also:

Death Throes (Ex): If Jormungandr dies from having his head sundered, his venom will seep out from his rapidly from his body, filling a 50-foot radius area around his head.  All creatures in this area are subject to Jormungandr’s poison.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> True that. I expected to find more hints. Anyway, I think he should definitely be immune to all death effects and other effects that instantly destroy him. Paralysis and sleep are covered by the dragon type, so he's already immune to them. I don't know if he warrants immunity to all the energy types, though, but I don't have a problem with it if he does. Imprisonment might be a reasonable vulnerability, since he kind of was imprisoned on Earth.




I think imprisonment was as in the spell, or anything similar to it.  Banishment, therefore, is irrelevant since we are not making him extraplanar.

Agreed on the energy types – maybe resistance to some or all of them?

I’m going to take a similar attitude to him as the gods get:  He Is What He Is and mortals can’t change that.  So, anything that would alter him being what he is will be out of the question.  That leaves disease and stunning – yea or nay on those?  I could see him not being immune to those, but his exceptional Fort save making him immune to all but the worst effects.

Immunities (Ex): Jormungandr has immunity to ability damage, ability drain, death effects, disintegration, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, and sleep effects.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The breath weapon, you mean? I kinda like it...makes him more dragonny.




which is exactly why I’d leave it out.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Either Aquatic or Water. Most of the true dragons have an elemental subtype, so I could see water. But since he isn't a true dragon, we could just do aquatic.




Aquatic it is.


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, here’s the take I’m having with him.  When he moves, usually, he just moves without any real thought as to the effects his movement has on the planet.  I’d say he spends most of the time just sitting there chawin’ on his tail.  but when something inspires him to move (possibly an earth shattering event), there is hell to pay for the unfortunates who get in the way.  Earthquakes, tsunamis, you get the idea.  Simple crushing isn’t enough, but it’s a start as an idea.  Remember, he must be thousands of miles long – his weight would be incalculable, and anything he runs over is just kaput.




Gotcha.  So maybe we can give him an ability stating that if he moves on land, he is preceded by an earthquake, while his movement through water creates tsunamis.  Something like the xixecal being constantly surrounded by dire winter.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about the damage?  It should be deadly enough that it would kill most creatures in one dose.  2d6?  Or maybe even worse at 3d6?  Even at 2d6, a bite attack would kill most non-epic creatures, I think.  Also:
> 
> Death Throes (Ex): If Jormungandr dies from having his head sundered, his venom will seep out from his rapidly from his body, filling a 50-foot radius area around his head.  All creatures in this area are subject to Jormungandr’s poison.




Let's go with 3d6.  Death Throes looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think imprisonment was as in the spell, or anything similar to it.  Banishment, therefore, is irrelevant since we are not making him extraplanar.




Yeah, I figured it meant the spell.  But I don't see any reason for him to be immune.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Agreed on the energy types – maybe resistance to some or all of them?




At least cold, but resistance 20 to all would be fine.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m going to take a similar attitude to him as the gods get:  He Is What He Is and mortals can’t change that.  So, anything that would alter him being what he is will be out of the question.  That leaves disease and stunning – yea or nay on those?  I could see him not being immune to those, but his exceptional Fort save making him immune to all but the worst effects.
> 
> Immunities (Ex): Jormungandr has immunity to ability damage, ability drain, death effects, disintegration, energy drain, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, polymorph, and sleep effects.




Yes to immunity to disease, no to stunning.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> which is exactly why I’d leave it out.




Interesting...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Aquatic it is.




Cool.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Gotcha. So maybe we can give him an ability stating that if he moves on land, he is preceded by an earthquake, while his movement through water creates tsunamis. Something like the xixecal being constantly surrounded by dire winter.




something like that.  I'll entertain any ideas you might have.  The DM is not going to want to calculate the damage to thousands of miles of area, but if a DM uses this creature, he's going to need to be prepared to describe utter devastation, and if any PCs are in an area Jormy is destroying, there will need to be a combat ability to describe what happens to any poor fool that gets trapped by the destruction.

I think that ability might need to be separate from the movement ability itself.  Here's an attempt at that:

"Instantaneous Movement" (Ex?): Jormungandr can move from one place on the planet to any other as a full-round action.  To accomplish this, he steers his head in the proper direction, and simply plows through or over anything in his path, moving perhaps at incredible speed to reposition himself.  His head will appear in whatever area on the world's surface, as he desires.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, I figured it meant the spell. But I don't see any reason for him to be immune.




the imprisonment spell entombs the subject deep below the earth - thus removing him from where he was.  Of course, you could always argue that his SR and saving throws will usually overcome this, but? better safe than sorry?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> At least cold, but resistance 20 to all would be fine.




I think I'll add cold to the immunities (he'll be in freezing water and arctic areas a good percentage of the time - especially since he is from Norse mythology   ) and give him 20 fire, electricity, acid, and sonic (but not force).


----------



## Shade (Mar 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> something like that.  I'll entertain any ideas you might have.  The DM is not going to want to calculate the damage to thousands of miles of area, but if a DM uses this creature, he's going to need to be prepared to describe utter devastation, and if any PCs are in an area Jormy is destroying, there will need to be a combat ability to describe what happens to any poor fool that gets trapped by the destruction.




Agreed.  Here's a stab at it...

Cataclysmic Motion (Ex):  Due to his incredible size, Jormungandr's movement often creates natural disatsters in his wake.  In cold land environments, his movements may an avalanche (see Mountain Terrain in the DMG).  In warm or temperate lands, his movements may create an earthquake (as the spell).  If Jormungandr moves through an aquatic environment during battle, he creates massive waves (treat as the raise water function of the _control water_ spell,with an area using a caster level equal to Jormungandr's Hit Dice).   Jormungandr can create any of these effects as part of his movement, and he may choose to move cautiously and not create an effect.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "Instantaneous Movement" (Ex?): Jormungandr can move from one place on the planet to any other as a full-round action.  To accomplish this, he steers his head in the proper direction, and simply plows through or over anything in his path, moving perhaps at incredible speed to reposition himself.  His head will appear in whatever area on the world's surface, as he desires.




Seems reasonable.

QUOTE=BOZ]the imprisonment spell entombs the subject deep below the earth - thus removing him from where he was.  Of course, you could always argue that his SR and saving throws will usually overcome this, but? better safe than sorry?[/QUOTE]

On second thought, I agree with the "better safe than sorry" approach.    

QUOTE=BOZ]I think I'll add cold to the immunities (he'll be in freezing water and arctic areas a good percentage of the time - especially since he is from Norse mythology   ) and give him 20 fire, electricity, acid, and sonic (but not force).[/QUOTE]

Good call.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Cataclysmic Motion (Ex): Due to his incredible size, Jormungandr's movement often creates natural disasters in his wake. In cold land environments, his movements may an avalanche (see Mountain Terrain in the DMG). In warm or temperate lands, his movements may create an earthquake (as the spell). If Jormungandr moves through an aquatic environment during battle, he creates massive waves (treat as the raise water function of the control water spell, with an area using a caster level equal to Jormungandr's Hit Dice). Jormungandr can create any of these effects as part of his movement, and he may choose to move cautiously and not create an effect.




it’s a good start.  A few things to think about… his “movement often creates natural disasters” is vague – does he always do this, and if not what are the chances?  I’d change all the “may cause” to certainties, personally.

As for the “choose to move cautiously” part, I think it would be better to give him a more “normal” movement rate that generally causes no damage (swim speed equal to land speed – no real difference anyway and he would slither on the bottom of the ocean I’d imagine), and assume that his “go anywhere in one round” movement usually exceeds his normal speed and is always destructive.  The effect would happen wherever his body moves through, so this ability just about causes worldwide calamity every time.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> On second thought, I agree with the "better safe than sorry" approach.




that’s better.


----------



## Shade (Mar 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> it’s a good start.  A few things to think about… his “movement often creates natural disasters” is vague – does he always do this, and if not what are the chances?  I’d change all the “may cause” to certainties, personally.




Good suggestion.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As for the “choose to move cautiously” part, I think it would be better to give him a more “normal” movement rate that generally causes no damage (swim speed equal to land speed – no real difference anyway and he would slither on the bottom of the ocean I’d imagine), and assume that his “go anywhere in one round” movement usually exceeds his normal speed and is always destructive.  The effect would happen wherever his body moves through, so this ability just about causes worldwide calamity every time.




Yes, a "tactical" movement as they call it in the PHB.  It looks like most great wyrm dragons have a land speed of 60 feet, even the epics.   Should we stick with that, giving him an equivalent swim speed, as you suggested?  Should he have a fly speed, since although he technically doesn't fly, he's so long that his head can easily travel vertically?

Here's a revision...

Cataclysmic Motion (Ex): Due to his incredible size, Jormungandr's overland movement creates natural disatsters in his wake. In cold land environments, his movements cause avalanches (see Mountain Terrain in the DMG). In warm or temperate lands, his movements create earthquakes (as the spell). When moving through aquatic environments, he creates massive waves (treat as the raise water function of the control water spell,with an area using a caster level equal to Jormungandr's Hit Dice). Jormungandr does not take any action to cause these effects, nor can he prevent them from happeining.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that’s better.




You knew I'd come around...evenutally.


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## BOZ (Mar 7, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes, a "tactical" movement as they call it in the PHB. It looks like most great wyrm dragons have a land speed of 60 feet, even the epics. Should we stick with that, giving him an equivalent swim speed, as you suggested? Should he have a fly speed, since although he technically doesn't fly, he's so long that his head can easily travel vertically?




no on fly speed, maybe on climb.  if you gave him 1 rank in Climb, his mod would be +33 (and that’s without a Climb speed).    as for his normal speed of 60, you can think of that in terms on a global scale as little more than “wiggling”.    that might cause a few minor tremors and shaking, but nothing much will be damaged.  most of the time, he doesn’t move any more than that – only when he really feels he needs to be somewhere else (Thor shows up to smack him in the side, for example) would be make his extraordinary movement.

Speaking of which, I decided to merge the two into one power:

Cataclysmic Motion (Ex): Jormungandr can move from one place on the planet to any other as a full-round action.  To accomplish this, he steers his head in the proper direction, and simply plows through or over anything in his path, moving at incredible speed to reposition himself.  His head will end in whatever area on the world’s surface he desires.  He cannot circle the world more than once this way in a single round.

Due to Jormungandr’s incredible size, this movement leaves natural disasters in his wake. In cold land environments, his movements cause avalanches (see Mountain Terrain in the DMG). In warm or temperate lands, his movements create an earthquake (as the spell). When moving through aquatic environments, he creates massive waves (treat as the raise water function of the control water spell, with an area using a caster level equal to Jormungandr's Hit Dice). Jormungandr does not take any action to cause these effects, nor can he prevent them from happening.

Do we have a way of determining the range of destruction?  X miles around his body?


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## Shade (Mar 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> no on fly speed, maybe on climb.  if you gave him 1 rank in Climb, his mod would be +33 (and that’s without a Climb speed).    as for his normal speed of 60, you can think of that in terms on a global scale as little more than “wiggling”.    that might cause a few minor tremors and shaking, but nothing much will be damaged.  most of the time, he doesn’t move any more than that – only when he really feels he needs to be somewhere else (Thor shows up to smack him in the side, for example) would be make his extraordinary movement.




You know, he doesn't really need either a climb speed or a fly speed.  All he has to do is lift his head to a higher height.  Perhaps we should mention somewhere that Jormy never makes Climb or Jump checks, as his impossible length allows him to lift his head to any height.  Additionally, he should never suffer falling damage, as it is impossible for him to fall.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Speaking of which, I decided to merge the two into one power:
> 
> Cataclysmic Motion (Ex): Jormungandr can move from one place on the planet to any other as a full-round action.  To accomplish this, he steers his head in the proper direction, and simply plows through or over anything in his path, moving at incredible speed to reposition himself.  His head will end in whatever area on the world’s surface he desires.  He cannot circle the world more than once this way in a single round.
> 
> Due to Jormungandr’s incredible size, this movement leaves natural disasters in his wake. In cold land environments, his movements cause avalanches (see Mountain Terrain in the DMG). In warm or temperate lands, his movements create an earthquake (as the spell). When moving through aquatic environments, he creates massive waves (treat as the raise water function of the control water spell, with an area using a caster level equal to Jormungandr's Hit Dice). Jormungandr does not take any action to cause these effects, nor can he prevent them from happening.




Yeah, I like this much better as one ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Do we have a way of determining the range of destruction?  X miles around his body?




I'd just limit it to a mile for simplicity's sake.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> You know, he doesn't really need either a climb speed or a fly speed. All he has to do is lift his head to a higher height. Perhaps we should mention somewhere that Jormy never makes Climb or Jump checks, as his impossible length allows him to lift his head to any height. Additionally, he should never suffer falling damage, as it is impossible for him to fall.




I can put those items in the combat flavor text.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2005)

Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

posted in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2005)

Now that's what I call an impressive stat block.      

A tail slap for a Colossal+ dragon does 4d8, so maybe we could use that for its slam attack?

Suggested Skill Ranks:  Bluff 69, Intimidate 69, Knowledge (Geography) 69, Knowledge (History) 69, Knowledge (Local) 69, Knowledge (Nature) 69, Knowledge (Religion) 69, Listen 69, Search 69, Sense Motive 69, Spot 69, Survival 69, Swim 69, Tumble 69

Suggested Feats:  Ability Focus (poison), Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Feint, Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Multiattack, Power Attack, Snatch, Track, Weapon Focus (bite).

Epic Feats:  Epic Prowess, Epic Sunder, Devastating Critical (bite), Legendary Tracker, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Superior Initiative.

Alternates:  Epic Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes.

CR of "comparable" epic dragons:
Ancient Force Dragon (65 HD) CR 43
Wyrm Force Dragon (70 HD) CR 50
Very old Prismatic Dragon (63 HD) CR 52
Ancient Prismatic Dragon (68 HD) CR 57


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

CR… 45 maybe?  (wild guess)

69 skill ranks in everything huh?    I’m fairly tempted to keep it exactly that way.  

I think he’s prevented from having Multiattack by virtue of having less than 3 natural attacks – so maybe Lightning Reflexes would then be better?

Question, should we add that non-epic magical protections from poison don’t work against jormy’s poison?


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> CR… 45 maybe?  (wild guess)




Yeah, that's feasible.  He has less attacks and no breath weapon, which actually makes him slightly inferior (if that is possible to imagine) than epic dragons of the same HD.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> 69 skill ranks in everything huh?    I’m fairly tempted to keep it exactly that way.




Yeah, there weren't many skills he could either a.) use or b.) need.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think he’s prevented from having Multiattack by virtue of having less than 3 natural attacks – so maybe Lightning Reflexes would then be better?




Good point.  Lightning Reflexes it is.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Question, should we add that non-epic magical protections from poison don’t work against jormy’s poison?




Another good idea.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's feasible. He has less attacks and no breath weapon, which actually makes him slightly inferior (if that is possible to imagine) than epic dragons of the same HD.




he’s got some insane immunities though, and poison that completely kicks ass.  

how about SR?

i'll try to find some time to write up the flavor text tomorrow - no more time for that today.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> he’s got some insane immunities though, and poison that completely kicks ass.




True enough.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about SR?




Since he had 95% before, I'd make it CR + 20, giving him spell resistance 65, which puts him well ahead of the force dragon, but still a little behind the prismatic dragons in his CR range.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll try to find some time to write up the flavor text tomorrow - no more time for that today.




Cool.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

Missing some numbers under Frightful Presence as well.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2005)

360 ft. like great wyrm dragons?

We also need this:

Skills: Jormungandr has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. He can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. He can use the run action while swimming, provided he swims in a straight line.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2005)

already caught that one.    not that his body will ever be entirely submerged or anything... but that would probably be useful when his head is in the water at least.

missing a couple items in the second paragraph:

Frightful Presence (Ex): Jormungandr can unsettle foes with his mere presence.  This ability takes effect automatically whenever Jormungandr attacks.  Creatures within 360 feet of Jormungandr are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than him.

A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 56 Will save remains immune to Jormungandr’s frightful presence for 24 hours.  On a failure, creatures become (panicked?) for X rounds.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2005)

How about the standard for dragons?

"On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Dragons ignore the frightful presence of other dragons."


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2005)

i guess that works just fine.  wrote up some flavor text, and updated in homebrews.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2005)

> _This serpent is so massively immense that it seems to go on for miles. Its thick body lies in huge coils as it stretches out across the expansive wilderness_.




I'd add a little more to make it more draconic...

_This serpent is so massively immense that it seems to go on for miles. Its thick body lies in huge coils as it stretches out across the expansive wilderness.  Its massive head is that of a dragon, dwarfing even the largest of great wyrms' entire bodies._

We should add languages.  Obviously Draconic.  Anything else?


Oh, and we need length and weight.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd add a little more to make it more draconic...
> 
> This serpent is so massively immense that it seems to go on for miles. Its thick body lies in huge coils as it stretches out across the expansive wilderness. Its massive head is that of a dragon, dwarfing even the largest of great wyrms' entire bodies.




I wasn’t actually going to describe the head, since it’s just as likely that a character will find the body long before he finds the head, but since you wrote it I decided to include it.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We should add languages. Obviously Draconic. Anything else?




what languages do gods and god-like beings know anyway?  How about, at the very least, Abyssal, Aquan, and Undercommon?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Oh, and we need length and weight.




  “Jormungandr is easily tens of thousands of miles long, and his weight is incalculable to any but a god.”


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I wasn’t actually going to describe the head, since it’s just as likely that a character will find the body long before he finds the head, but since you wrote it I decided to include it.




 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> what languages do gods and god-like beings know anyway?  How about, at the very least, Abyssal, Aquan, and Undercommon?




"A deity of rank 1 or higher can understand, speak, and read any language, including nonverbal languages."

I like your choices, though.  Maybe also Common since it has observed the world for so long.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “Jormungandr is easily tens of thousands of miles long, and his weight is incalculable to any but a god.”




That is more than adequate.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2005)

ok, updating again.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2005)

Looks good.   I get warm fuzzies everytime I look at that stat block.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2005)

one more thing i got from our epic level game last night...

fast healing + regeneration makes lethal damage go away too...


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2005)

yes, no, maybe so?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2005)

I'm sorry...were you wanting to add fast healing to Jormy.  If so, I'm on-board.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2005)

good then.    that would keep Thor (or someone else with an epic holy hammer) from being able to slowly whack him to death – the fast heal would take care of that, or at least slow them down.  How about fast healing 200 then?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2005)

Works for me.

You know, one thing has been bugging me...how exactly would Thor sever Jormy's head with a hammer?


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## BOZ (Mar 11, 2005)

well, the sunder would be more of a smashing/crushing effect than a severing (see Sunder in the combat section in the PHB).  In order for Thor to accomplish the feat of severing Jormy’s head, he would need to do a ridiculous amount of damage in one hit anyway – probably need some additional buff spells/items beyond what he has already to do that much damage.

The fast healing/regeneration combo is a killer.  Without the fast heal, jormy is nowhere near as tough, because like I said Thor or anyone with an epic holy hammer could eventually kill him by doing enough damage, since the regen can’t handle it.  But, the fast heal would fix the damage that the regen couldn’t fix.  

As for the spread, since I was thinking 400 in the first place, how about splitting it up into fast healing 200 & regeneration 200?


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2005)

Gotcha.  The 200/200 split sounds perfect.


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## Clifford (Mar 15, 2005)

*Jormy*

I read the thread and got to thinking. Shouldent jormy be an abomination i beleive that he fits the bill. Lets see. unwanted Bastard son of a diety Check, Imprisoned somewhere (Midguard) Check, 

What do you all think?

Cliff
>=)


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2005)

I was thinking the same thing, until I reviewed the abomination creation overview and saw this:

Summon Creature (Sp): Abominations can summon creatures associated either with the portfolio of their godly progenitor or with their imprisonment. For example, an abomination whose deific father's portfolio included the sky might be able to summon air elementals, while another abomination sealed away deep in the earth might be able to summon earth elementals (regardless of its mother's or father's portfolio). Summonded creatures serve the abomination without question. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour, or sooner if slain. See specific abomination entries for additional details on summoning.

Spell-Like Abilities: All abominations have access to a variety of spells in the form of spell-like abilities, which they can use as 20th- or higher-level casters, depending on the abomination. No rule governs how many or how few spell-like abilities an abomination may claim.

I agree that he is pretty close to being an abomination.  You'll notice that we have given him many of the abilities and qualities that abominations possess.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2005)

i have no real opinion on this.


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## BOZ (Apr 4, 2005)

OK, as requested by Shade...  

Dragon 183

Linnorm, Midgard
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius (20)
TREASURE: S,T,U,V,W,X (all × 5)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
NO. APPEARING: 1

ARMOR CLASS: -12
MOVEMENT: 18, SW 40
HIT DICE: 25 (200 hp)
THAC0: 2
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws/1 bite/1 tail strike + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 3d10/3d10/2d12/4d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapons, constriction
SPECIAL DEFENSES: + 2 or better weapon to hit, spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 70%
SIZE: G (500' long)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 31,000

The Midgard linnorm is said to be the sole offspring of the Midgard Serpent, child of Loki. The Midgard linnorm, of which sages believe (and hope) there is only one, is the most magnificent of the Norse dragons and rivals Bahamut and Tiamat in power (see FOR1 Draconomicon, pages 57-59). Sages think that this great wingless serpent may be as immortal as his sire. Their flamboyant and frightening stories claim the Midgard linnorm lives at the bottom of the ocean. Few have actually seen the Midgard linnorm, and fewer still have lived to tell of it. They say the creature is so long they could not see the end of it.
The giant linnorm's body is covered with massive blue, green, and silver scales that glisten like opals. When it moves, the shifting colors make it look like a stream of running water. Its head, filled with a double row of pale-blue teeth, is said to stretch 50' wide and twice that long. Its emerald-green, lidless and pupil-less eyes are perfectly round and mirror whatever is looking into them. While the Midgard linnorm has no horns, its head is topped with a ridge of coarse midnight blue hair that looks like a horse's mane. The hair extends partway down its massive neck where it becomes a lighter blue spinal ruff that runs to the tip of its barbed tail.
The Midgard linnorm's rear legs are short and stumpy for its massive form, and appear as if they are not strong enough to support it. Its front legs are longer and end in razor-sharp claws. The linnorm uses its legs primarily to aid its maneuverability as it slithers along in the water and across the land.

Combat: Despite its malicious nature, the Midgard linnorm avoids battles, considering physical struggles beneath it. It prefers to meddle in the affairs of other linnorms, humans, and demihumans through its spells and abilities, keeping its distance yet maintaining control of the situation. The Midgard linnorm has entered few fights in its centuries-long existence. It relies on guards to fight for it.
However, if a threat is menacing enough, the Midgard linnorm breathes on the targets. Those left standing are next subjected to its spells and further breath weapons. The Midgard linnorm will only attack with its bite, claws, and tail slash if there is no other recourse. The Midgard linnorm speaks the languages of all Norse dragons and can telepathically communicate with all other intelligent creatures. This is the only linnorm with this extensive telepathic ability.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The Midgard linnorm possesses three breath weapons. The first is a spray of boiling water 10' wide and 200' long. Creatures of fewer than 4 HD struck by the spray automatically drown unless they are capable of breathing water. Creatures of 5-7 HD drown only if they fail their saving throws vs. breath weapon. Creatures of greater than 7 HD are not subject to the drowning attack. Further, all those struck by the water spray suffer 20d20 + 12 hp damage (save vs. breath weapon for half), and they are propelled 100' back. The second breath weapon is a cloud of dust 200' long, 80' wide, and 60' deep. Those caught within the cloud suffer 16d20 + 12 hp damage (save vs. breath weapon for half). All those who fail their saving throws are affected as if they were subject to dust of sneezing and choking. The final breath weapon is a cone of wind 20' wide at his mouth, 200' long, and 50' wide at the base. All those caught within the cone suffer 12d20 + 12 hp damage (save vs. breath weapon for half). Further, they are automatically propelled backwards 200' from their starting position. The Midgard linnorm is able to breathe every other round as often as it wishes. Creatures struck by a breath weapon save at -3 because of this linnorm's awesome power.
Another deadly attack is its ability to constrict creatures by wrapping its tail about them and squeezing. Those caught in this grip suffer 20 hp damage per round until dead. A successful bend-bars attempt at one-half normal chances is needed to wriggle free.
In addition, this great linnorm has the following permanent abilities, useable at will: water breathing, ESP, telepathy, create water, and protection from fire. At will, he can perform the following, once a day: charm person, charm monster, wall of fog, detect invisibility, hypnotic pattern, whispering wind, improved invisibility, solid fog, wizard eye, airy water telekinesis, death fog, raise water, veil, power word stun, teleport without error, power word blind, and shape change. The Midgard linnorm uses his magical abilities at 14th level.

Habitat/Society: The Midgard linnorm lives at the bottom of the ocean on the world of the Vikings, and there spends most of its time. The serpent is a solitary creature, believing the company of others largely inconsequential. Still, the linnorm recognizes the value in keeping others nearby as guards. The serpent's lair is a huge underwater sea cave, so deep beneath the surface of the water that no light filters down. In this lair, the Midgard linnorm is guarded by a quartet of venerable sea linnorms of maximum hit points (see DRAGON® issue 182). The Midgard linnorm stores his wealth within the deepest chambers. Discarding coins and gems, the serpent elects to keep primarily magical treasure, and he employs some of that magic when venturing out of his lair. Also in his lair are remnants from visits to the surface-prows of Viking ships, statues from villages, large shields, and other trinkets.
The Midgard linnorm considers all of the sea floor his domain and is quick to dispatch any creatures that claim territory in his presence.

Ecology: The Midgard linnorm requires very little sustenance, dining once every four or five decades. During this time, the linnorm consumes vast amounts, of sea foam-and whatever is floating on it.
The Midgard linnorm has no known predators but many enemies in human and demihuman communities. Occasionally, bands of humans and demihumans who have heard of the Midgard linnorm foolishly band together in an attempt to hunt it; they are never heard from again. All normal linnorms bow to the Midgard linnorm, never daring to challenge it.


MCA1:
Dragon, Linnorm, Midgard

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Deep ocean /any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius (20)
TREASURE: S,T,U,V,W,,X (all x5)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -12
MOVEMENT: 18, Sw 39
HIT DICE: 25 (200 hp)
THAC0: 2
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4 plus special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3d10 (x2)/2d12/4d10/speciaI
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath, constriction
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells, +2 weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 70%
SIZE: G (500' long)
MORALE: Fearless (19)
XP VALUE: 31,000

The Midgard linnorm may be the sole offspring of the Midgard Serpent, child of Loki - sages believe (and hope) there is only one. This great wingless serpent may be as immortal as its sire. 

The linnorm's body is covered with blue, green, and silver scales that glisten like opals. Its head, filled with a double row of pale-blue teeth, stretches 50 feet wide and twice that long. Its emerald-green, lidless and pupil-less, eyes are round and mirror whatever looks into them. The head is topped with a ridge of coarse, midnight blue hair that extends partway down its massive neck, where it becomes a lighter-blue spinal ruff that runs to the tip of the barbed tail. The creature's rear legs are stumpy for its massive form, appearing too weak to support it; its longer front legs end in razor-sharp claws.

The Midgard linnorm speaks the languages of all Norse dragons and can telepathically communicate with all other intelligent creatures as well.

Combat: Despite its malicious nature, the Midgard avoids battle, considering combat beneath it. It prefers to meddle in the affairs of other creatures through its magic, keeping its distance yet maintaining control of the situation. The dragon relies upon guards to fight for it, but if a threat menaces, it uses its deadly breath and spells. The Midgard attacks with its claws, bite, and tail slap only if necessary.

Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The Midgard possesses three breath weapons. The first is a spray of boiling water 10 feet wide and 200 feet long. Struck creatures with fewer than 4 HD drown unless they can breathe water; creatures of 5-7 HD drown if they fail to save (those with more than 7 HD aren't subject to drowning). All victims suffer 20d20 + 12 points of damage (save for half) and are thrust back 100 feet. The second breath weapon is a cloud of dust 200 feet long, 80 feet wide, and 60 feet deep that inflicts 16d20 + 12 damage (save for half). Those who fail to save are affected as if subjected to _dust of sneezing and choking_. The third breath weapon is a cone of wind 20 feet wide at the mouth, 200 feet long, and 50 feet wide at the base, inflicting 12d20 + 12 damage (save for half) and pushing victims back 200 feet. The dragon can breathe every other round, as often as it likes. Victims of any breath attack save with a -3 penalty due to this creature's power.

	This dragon can constrict creatures with its tail, inflicting 20 points of damage per round; a successful bend bars roll at half-normal chance is needed to wriggle free. The linnorm has the following abilities, useable at will: create water, ESP, protection from fire, telepathy, and water breathing. It can perform at will, once per day: airy water, charm person, charm monster, death fog, detect invisibility, hypnotic pattern, improved invisibility, power word blind, power word stun, raise water, shape change, solid fog, telekinesis, teleport without error, veil, wall of fog, whispering wind, wizard eye. It uses magic at 14th level.

Habitat/Society: The Midgard lives at the bottom of the ocean, considering the company of others inconsequential. Its lair is a huge, dark underwater sea cave guarded by four venerable sea linnorms with maximum hit points. The creature stores its wealth within the deepest chambers. Discarding coins and gems, the dragon primarily keeps magical treasure, which it wields when venturing out of its lair. Also in the lair are remnants of visits to the surface: prows of ships, statues from villages, large shields, and other trinkets.

This dragon considers the sea floor its domain and is quick to dispatch any creature that claims territory in its presence.

Ecology: The Midgard requires little sustenance, dining once every 40 or 50 years upon vast amounts of sea foam - and anything floating on it. It has no known predators, but many enemies in human and demihuman communities. All other linnorms bow to the Midgard.


Originally found in Dragon Magazine #183 ("The Vikings' Dragons," July 1992, Jean Rabe), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 4, 2005)

Hmm.... That is one nasty dragon.

Size/Type: Colossal Dragon (Aquatic, Water)
Hit Dice: Should probably be increased some, but by how much I do not know.
Armor Class: Natural Armor should be equal to HD -1, as it is with most dragons.
Special Attacks: Breathweapon, Constrict, Spells, Spell-like abilities, (more?)
Special Qualities: Amphibious, DR XX/epic, SR = CR + 14?, Immunities? Resistances?


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

Well, since it has to be at least as good (and probably better than) the toughest other linnorm, the corpse tearer, it will need at least 28 Hit Dice.  Tiamat has 49 HD and Bahamut 53 HD (in their non-deity versions), so maybe we should put this fella at 50 HD?

Krishnath -- Aren't the aquatic and water subtypes redundant?

It's gotta be at least Colossal, but I think Colossal+ is more appropriate.

Ability scores of its "peers":
Bahamut:  Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35
Tiamat:  Str 49, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 28
Corpse Tearer:  Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
Increasing the corpse tearer to Colossal:  Str 44, Dex 9, Con 30, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19


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## Krishnath (Apr 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Krishnath -- Aren't the aquatic and water subtypes redundant?




No they are not. It is a dragon that lives at the bottom of the friggin ocean, thus aquatic and water subtypes.

Also, Colossal+ is redundant.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> No they are not. It is a dragon that lives at the bottom of the friggin ocean, thus aquatic and water subtypes.




I was just stating that the benefits were redundant.  That, and I can't remember ever seeing any creature that has both.  I could be wrong, though.

Aquatic Subtype: These creatures always have swim speeds and thus can move in water without making Swim checks. An aquatic creature can breathe underwater. It cannot also breathe air unless it has the amphibious special quality.

Water Subtype: This subtype usually is used for elementals and outsiders with a connection to the Elemental Plane of Water. Creatures with the water subtype always have swim speeds and can move in water without making Swim checks. A water creature can breathe underwater and usually can breathe air as well.




			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> Also, Colossal+ is redundant.




   Yeah, I always thought it was kind of silly.   I prefer the Awesome size from Spelljammer:  Shadows of the Spider Moon, but I'm not real wild about the name.  I'd have preferred "Titanic" or "Ginormous".


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2005)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Hmm.... That is one nasty dragon.
> 
> Size/Type: Colossal Dragon (Aquatic, Water)
> Hit Dice: Should probably be increased some, but by how much I do not know.
> ...




let’s see…
the only other attacks I can think of would be crush and tail sweep, if appropriate since it spends most of its time in the ocean.
For SQ’s, based on other linnorms: Blindsense X ft, damage reduction X/epic (good call!) and cold iron, keen senses, spell resistance X
Amphibious won’t be necessary with the Water subtype.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Well, since it has to be at least as good (and probably better than) the toughest other linnorm, the corpse tearer, it will need at least 28 Hit Dice. Tiamat has 49 HD and Bahamut 53 HD (in their non-deity versions), so maybe we should put this fella at 50 HD?




“Middy Jr” should definitely be tougher than the corpse tearer.  50 HD works, and that’s doubling the original HD.    I think he should be weaker than the non-deity Bahamut and Tiamat, but not by a lot.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Krishnath -- Aren't the aquatic and water subtypes redundant?




for dragons, the water subtype is better and should be sufficient.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It's gotta be at least Colossal, but I think Colossal+ is more appropriate.




remind me what the difference was again?  I don’t remember thinking it was very significant before.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Ability scores of its "peers":
> Bahamut: Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35
> Tiamat: Str 49, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 28
> Corpse Tearer: Str 36, Dex 9, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19
> Increasing the corpse tearer to Colossal: Str 44, Dex 9, Con 30, Int 17, Wis 20, Cha 19




in keeping with my “weaker than Baha and Tia, I like your Str and Con.  I hate to see a dragon get a Dex penalty, so I would give it 10.  as for the mental stats, they could use a boost – at least Int 20 like in the original.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> "Ginormous"




now that, I’ll go for.  



			
				Dragon 183 said:
			
		

> The Midgard linnorm speaks the languages of all Norse dragons and can telepathically communicate with all other intelligent creatures. This is the only linnorm with this extensive telepathic ability.




some preliminary stats for the Midgard linnorm:

*Linnorm, Midgard Linnorm*
Colossal Dragon (Water)
Hit Dice: 50d12+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +0
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), swim 100 ft
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +49 natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +50/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (X) and 2 claws +X melee (X) and tail slap +X melee (X)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/20 ft (X ft with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, constrict, improved grab, spell-like abilities, spells
Special Qualities: Blindsense X ft, damage reduction X/epic and cold iron, keen senses, spell resistance X, telepathy
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 10, Con 26, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats: 

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Triple Standard?
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

COMBAT

Constrict (Ex): The Midgard linnorm deals X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the Midgard linnorm must hit with its tail slap attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

Skills: The Midgard linnorm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard.  It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered.  It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #183 (“The Vikings’ Dragons,” July 1992, Jean Rabe), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> let’s see…
> the only other attacks I can think of would be crush and tail sweep, if appropriate since it spends most of its time in the ocean.
> For SQ’s, based on other linnorms: Blindsense X ft, damage reduction X/epic (good call!) and cold iron, keen senses, spell resistance X
> Amphibious won’t be necessary with the Water subtype.




All the official linnorms have 60 foot blindsense.  All have spell resistance equal to CR + 11.

Add to SQ line:  immunities (disease, paralysis, sleep).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “Middy Jr” should definitely be tougher than the corpse tearer.  50 HD works, and that’s doubling the original HD.    I think he should be weaker than the non-deity Bahamut and Tiamat, but not by a lot.




Although...



			
				Dragon 183 said:
			
		

> The Midgard linnorm is said to be the sole offspring of the Midgard Serpent, child of Loki. The Midgard linnorm, of which sages believe (and hope) there is only one, is the most magnificent of the Norse dragons and rivals Bahamut and Tiamat






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> for dragons, the water subtype is better and should be sufficient.




That seems to be the norm.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> remind me what the difference was again?  I don’t remember thinking it was very significant before.




Higher damage, greater breath weapon size, greater reach.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> in keeping with my “weaker than Baha and Tia, I like your Str and Con.  I hate to see a dragon get a Dex penalty, so I would give it 10.  as for the mental stats, they could use a boost – at least Int 20 like in the original.




Agreed with the Dex penalty.  I'd raise the Int and other mental stats higher....I wasn't suggesting using that last line, just bringing the toughest official linnorms stats up to Colossal size.


----------



## Krishnath (Apr 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> All the official linnorms have 60 foot blindsense.  All have spell resistance equal to CR + 11.




But the Midgaard Linnorm Had SR 70% which equates 14+CR, besides he is unique. 



> Add to SQ line:  immunities (disease, paralysis, sleep).



Should probably give him some form of elemental immunity as well, cold perhaps?



> Higher damage, greater breath weapon size, greater reach.



And not OGL, unless it is in the Epic part of the SRD... (somebody check that)



> Agreed with the Dex penalty.  I'd raise the Int and other mental stats higher....I wasn't suggesting using that last line, just bringing the toughest official linnorms stats up to Colossal size.




Ditto, as for the mental stats, I suggest using the Corpse Tearers as the base, but increasing them by 6 each, thus Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 25.
One might even consider increasing the Wis and Cha additionally.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2005)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> But the Midgaard Linnorm Had SR 70% which equates 14+CR, besides he is unique.




It doesn't bother me to make it higher...I was just pointing out the baseline.    



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> Should probably give him some form of elemental immunity as well, cold perhaps?




Good point.  He probably would need at least cold resistance in the depths of the oceans.



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> And not OGL, unless it is in the Epic part of the SRD... (somebody check that)




It's in there.    



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> Ditto, as for the mental stats, I suggest using the Corpse Tearers as the base, but increasing them by 6 each, thus Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 25.
> One might even consider increasing the Wis and Cha additionally.




Yeah, that's looking better.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 6, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> All the official linnorms have 60 foot blindsense.




right, but he might have better.    what did we give his daddy again?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> All have spell resistance equal to CR + 11.





			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> But the Midgaard Linnorm Had SR 70% which equates 14+CR, besides he is unique.




i'm agreeing with the dragon on this one.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Although...





			
				Dragon 183 said:
			
		

> The Midgard linnorm is said to be the sole offspring of the Midgard Serpent, child of Loki. The Midgard linnorm, of which sages believe (and hope) there is only one, is the most magnificent of the Norse dragons and rivals Bahamut and Tiamat




right.  he _rivals_ the power of those other two, which could easily mean that he comes close but isn't quite there.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Higher damage, greater breath weapon size, greater reach.




we could just give him that stuff without messing around with the size category.  

suggestions, then, for Int, Wis, and Cha?  



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> Should probably give him some form of elemental immunity as well, cold perhaps?




probably - that sounds good.  



			
				Krishnath said:
			
		

> I suggest using the Corpse Tearers as the base, but increasing them by 6 each, thus Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 25.




sounds good to me.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> right, but he might have better.    what did we give his daddy again?




60 ft.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm agreeing with the dragon on this one.




Once again, I wasn't making a recommendation, simply stating what the others have.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> right.  he _rivals_ the power of those other two, which could easily mean that he comes close but isn't quite there.




True enough.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we could just give him that stuff without messing around with the size category.




That is fine.  I just like consistency, that's all.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> suggestions, then, for Int, Wis, and Cha?




The 23 Int and 26 Wis sound fine, but I think the Cha needs to be higher.   Check out what we gave his dear 'ol dad:  Str 75, Dex 10, Con 65, Int 27, Wis 29, Cha 36.

Dad's Cha was much higher than his other mental stats.   Perhaps 28, which "rivals" Tiamat?    

Keep in mind, too, that Tiamat and Bahamut don't really stack up well to true epic dragons.  They're kinda wussy.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

Since I had time...

Crush (Ex): When jumping, the Midgard linnorm can land on opponents three or more sizes smaller than itself as a standard action, using its whole body to crush them. A crush attack affects as many creatures as can fit under the Midgard linnorm's body. Each creature in the affected area must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking 8d6+X points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is Constitution-based. Thereafter, if the Midgard linnorm chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round.

Tail Sweep (Ex): The Midgard linnorm can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects creatures four or more size categories smaller than the linnorm within a 20-foot-radius half-circle centered on the linnorm's rear. Each affected creature that fails a Reflex save (DC X half) takes 4d6+X points of damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Keen Senses (Ex): The Midgard linnorm sees four times as well as a human in low-light conditions and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision with a range of 120 feet.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

thanks.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

No problem.    



> The linnorm has the following abilities, useable at will: create water, ESP, protection from fire, telepathy, and water breathing. It can perform at will, once per day: airy water, charm person, charm monster, death fog, detect invisibility, hypnotic pattern, improved invisibility, power word blind, power word stun, raise water, shape change, solid fog, telekinesis, teleport without error, veil, wall of fog, whispering wind, wizard eye. It uses magic at 14th level.




Spell-Like Abiities:  At will--create water, protection from energy, water breathing;  1/day--charm person (DC X), charm monster (DC X), control water, greater invisibility, greater teleport (DC X), hypnotic pattern (DC X), power word blind, power word stun, see invisibility, shapechange, solid fog, telekinesis (DC X), veil (DC X), whispering wind.  Caster level 14th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


ESP = clairaudience/clairvoyance?
telpathy = ?
airy water = ?
death fog = cloudkill?
wall of fog = fog cloud and/or wall of ice? 
wizard eye = arcane eye?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

judging from my handy old 3.0 conversion guide,

ESP = detect thoughts
death fog = acid fog
wizard eye = arcane eye

airy water has no equivalent that i know of, so skip it.  telepathy will just become standard 3.5 style telepathy. for wall of fog, just use both of your suggested replacements.


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

Cool.  I can't believe I forgot to check the conversion guide!    

Updated as such:

Spell-Like Abiities: At will--create water, detect thoughts (DC X), protection from energy, water breathing; 1/day--acid fog, arcane eye, charm person (DC X), charm monster (DC X), control water, fog cloud, greater invisibility, greater teleport (DC X), hypnotic pattern (DC X), power word blind, power word stun, see invisibility, shapechange, solid fog, telekinesis (DC X), veil (DC X), wall of ice (DC X), whispering wind. Caster level 14th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Telepathy 120 feet?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

Dragon 183 said:
			
		

> The Midgard linnorm speaks the languages of all Norse dragons and can telepathically communicate with all other intelligent creatures. This is the only linnorm with this extensive telepathic ability.




...


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

Well, the rest of the linnorms speak Draconic and Abyssal, so it should be able to speak those.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

sounds good, and your telepathy range probably works as well.


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2005)

> Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The Midgard linnorm possesses three breath weapons. The first is a spray of boiling water 10' wide and 200' long. Creatures of fewer than 4 HD struck by the spray automatically drown unless they are capable of breathing water. Creatures of 5-7 HD drown only if they fail their saving throws vs. breath weapon. Creatures of greater than 7 HD are not subject to the drowning attack. Further, all those struck by the water spray suffer 20d20 + 12 hp damage (save vs. breath weapon for half), and they are propelled 100' back. The second breath weapon is a cloud of dust 200' long, 80' wide, and 60' deep. Those caught within the cloud suffer 16d20 + 12 hp damage (save vs. breath weapon for half). All those who fail their saving throws are affected as if they were subject to dust of sneezing and choking. The final breath weapon is a cone of wind 20' wide at his mouth, 200' long, and 50' wide at the base. All those caught within the cone suffer 12d20 + 12 hp damage (save vs. breath weapon for half). Further, they are automatically propelled backwards 200' from their starting position. The Midgard linnorm is able to breathe every other round as often as it wishes. Creatures struck by a breath weapon save at -3 because of this linnorm's awesome power.






> Breath Weapon/Special Abilities: The Midgard possesses three breath weapons. The first is a spray of boiling water 10 feet wide and 200 feet long. Struck creatures with fewer than 4 HD drown unless they can breathe water; creatures of 5-7 HD drown if they fail to save (those with more than 7 HD aren't subject to drowning). All victims suffer 20d20 + 12 points of damage (save for half) and are thrust back 100 feet. The second breath weapon is a cloud of dust 200 feet long, 80 feet wide, and 60 feet deep that inflicts 16d20 + 12 damage (save for half). Those who fail to save are affected as if subjected to dust of sneezing and choking. The third breath weapon is a cone of wind 20 feet wide at the mouth, 200 feet long, and 50 feet wide at the base, inflicting 12d20 + 12 damage (save for half) and pushing victims back 200 feet. The dragon can breathe every other round, as often as it likes. Victims of any breath attack save with a -3 penalty due to this creature's power.




Attempting this...

Breath Weapon (Su): The Midgard linnorm has three types of breath weapon:  a line of boiling water, a cone of dust, and a cone of wind.  The boiling water is a 200-foot line that deals 20d20 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half).  Additionally, the creature must succeed on a DC X Strength check or be pushed back 100 feet (as if bull rushed).  Creatures with less than 7 Hit Dice must also succeed on a DC X Constitution check or begin drowning.  The cloud of dust is a 200-foot cone that deals 16d20 points of damage (Reflex DC X half).  Additionally, creatures in the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or  take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC X Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds.  The third breath weapon is a 200-foot cone of wind that deals 12d20 points of damage (Reflex DC X half).  Additionally, the creature must succeed on a DC X Strength check or be pushed back 200 feet (as if bull rushed).  All three breath weapons function normally underwater.  The save DCs are Constitution-based.

This ...



> Creatures struck by a breath weapon save at -3 because of this linnorm's awesome power.




...screams "Ability Focus" and possibly a racial bonus?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

first of all, since this guy’s breath weapons require a bit more description than that of standard dragons, it might be wise to separate them into paragraphs to help keep them straight.  Of course, it was one big paragraph in the original writeups too…

Shouldn’t there also be a line about how often the breath weapon can be used or is that always standardized?  The original text says every other round.

The dust version is fine – at first I looked and thought “I didn’t know dust of sneezing and choking was so potent!” but then I looked it up in the 2E DMG – and it was a save or die effect.    it should probably be noted somewhere that this one only affects living creatures (or creatures that breathe)?

For the boiling water version… I don’t know how effective the drowning is going to be.  It seems that the older text assume that a victim just immediately drowns, drops dead right away.  Now using this as a line, drowning seems impractical.  If the dragon is breathing on someone on land, in the next round the creature will be able to breathe.  If the dragon is fighting someone in the water, you’ll assume that they likely breathe water or have some magical method of not drowning anyway.

The wind seems just fine – is the bull rush part basically standard for this sort of attack?  What type of damage should this be, bludgeoning or just untyped?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> "Ability Focus" and possibly a racial bonus?




with 17 feats, that will do just fine.    the racial bonus is something we can consider later – the DC should be rather high as it is.


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> first of all, since this guy’s breath weapons require a bit more description than that of standard dragons, it might be wise to separate them into paragraphs to help keep them straight.  Of course, it was one big paragraph in the original writeups too…




Multiple paragraphs work for me.  I was just copying the usual dragon format.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Shouldn’t there also be a line about how often the breath weapon can be used or is that always standardized?  The original text says every other round.




Oops!  I should've included that.  The standard is every 1d4 rounds for dragons and linnorms.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The dust version is fine – at first I looked and thought “I didn’t know dust of sneezing and choking was so potent!” but then I looked it up in the 2E DMG – and it was a save or die effect.    it should probably be noted somewhere that this one only affects living creatures (or creatures that breathe)?




I copied it directly from the 3.5 DMG's dust of sneezing and choking.  I was surprised, too.    

The item didn't include the limitations suggested, but I would agree that it makes sense that an undead or construct shouldn't be affected.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the boiling water version… I don’t know how effective the drowning is going to be.  It seems that the older text assume that a victim just immediately drowns, drops dead right away.  Now using this as a line, drowning seems impractical.  If the dragon is breathing on someone on land, in the next round the creature will be able to breathe.  If the dragon is fighting someone in the water, you’ll assume that they likely breathe water or have some magical method of not drowning anyway.




We could borrow from the much-maligned miasma spell:

"By filling the subject's mouth and throat with unbreathable gas, you prevent him from doing much more than coughing and spitting. The subject cannot speak: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, bardic music cannot be performed, and no noise other than coughing and spitting is impossible. The subject can hold his breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution but must make a Constitution check (DC 10 +1 per previous success) each round thereafter to continue doing so. Failure on any such check (or voluntary resumption of breathing) causes the subject to fall unconscious (0 hp). On the next round, the subject drops to -1 hit points and is dying on the third round, he suffocates (see Suffocation, page 304 of the Dungeon Master's Guide)."

Or modify this from the MM3, making it "the breath lingers" rather than an emanation...

Drowning Aura (Su): A drowned gives off a 30-foot radius emanation of suffocating drowning, imbuing its surroundings with a watery glint and deadly threat for creatures that breathe. All breathing creatures within 30 feet of a drowned are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe. The drowning aura accelerates teh process of drowning.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The wind seems just fine – is the bull rush part basically standard for this sort of attack?  What type of damage should this be, bludgeoning or just untyped?




Well, we could take one of two approaches, either the ring of the ram/telekinesis router (like I did) or the wind effects route (checked, blown away, etc.).  I suppose we could also do a combination of the two.   Damage should be untyped.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> with 17 feats, that will do just fine.    the racial bonus is something we can consider later – the DC should be rather high as it is.




So true!


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

OK, did a little bit of work on this here and there.  We could merge this back into a single paragraph later if that seems like a good idea.

Breath Weapon (Su): The Midgard linnorm has three types of breath weapon: a line of boiling water, a cone of dust, and a cone of wind. It may use any breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.

The spray of boiling water is a 200-foot line that deals 20d20 points of fire damage (Reflex DC 45 half). Additionally, the creature must succeed on a DC X Strength check or be pushed back 100 feet (as if bull rushed). Creatures with less than 7 Hit Dice must also succeed on a DC X Constitution check or begin drowning. 

The cloud of dust is a 200-foot cone that deals 16d20 points of damage (Reflex DC 45 half) and causes living creatures to fall into fits of sneezing and coughing. Additionally, living creatures in the area must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 2d6 points of Constitution damage immediately. In addition, those failing a second DC X Fortitude save 1 minute later are dealt 1d6 points of Constitution damage. Those who succeed on either saving throw are nonetheless disabled by choking (treat as stunned) for 5d4 rounds. 

The third breath weapon is a 200-foot cone of wind that deals 12d20 points of damage (Reflex DC 45 half). Additionally, the creature must succeed on a DC X Strength check or be pushed back 200 feet (as if bull rushed). 

All three breath weapons function normally underwater. The save DCs are Constitution-based.


I notice that the original has the dust coming in a cloud form.  The above text alternates between cone and cloud.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Or modify this from the MM3, making it "the breath lingers" rather than an emanation...
> 
> Drowning Aura (Su): A drowned gives off a 30-foot radius emanation of suffocating drowning, imbuing its surroundings with a watery glint and deadly threat for creatures that breathe. All breathing creatures within 30 feet of a drowned are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe. The drowning aura accelerates teh process of drowning.




I like that one better – the first one is more like suffocation than drowning.  How about:

Air breathing creatures with less than 7 Hit Dice must succeed on a DC X Constitution check, or their lungs fill with water and they begin drowning immediately, and are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe.  Creatures that fail the Constitution check may attempt a new check every round to cough the water out.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Well, we could take one of two approaches, either the ring of the ram/telekinesis router (like I did) or the wind effects route (checked, blown away, etc.). I suppose we could also do a combination of the two. Damage should be untyped.




you know what, I think I’d like to see a different effect for each breath weapon.  How about blown away for the wind?


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, did a little bit of work on this here and there.  We could merge this back into a single paragraph later if that seems like a good idea.
> 
> Breath Weapon (Su): The Midgard linnorm has three types of breath weapon: a line of boiling water, a cone of dust, and a cone of wind. It may use any breath weapon once every 1d4 rounds.




All writeups looks good so far.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I notice that the original has the dust coming in a cloud form.  The above text alternates between cone and cloud.




I just did it for flavor.  Cloud-shaped breath weapons no longer exist...they all appear to be cones now (see gold dragon, green dragon, etc.)



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I like that one better – the first one is more like suffocation than drowning.  How about:
> 
> Air breathing creatures with less than 7 Hit Dice must succeed on a DC X Constitution check, or their lungs fill with water and they begin drowning immediately, and are treated as if beneath water in terms of being able to breathe.  Creatures that fail the Constitution check may attempt a new check every round to cough the water out.




Yeah, I think I like that better.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> you know what, I think I’d like to see a different effect for each breath weapon.  How about blown away for the wind?




Cool.   It would probably be best just to state that it is equivalent to a certain wind speed, rather than just picking an automatic condition (since conditions are based on size).

How about "tornado-force" wind, causing Large or smaller creatures to be blown away, Huge creatures to be knocked down, and Gargantuan or Colossal creatures to be checked?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 8, 2005)

i think it's time to post this one in homebrews, just to see where we're at on it.


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2005)

Suggested Feats: Ability Focus (Breath Weapon), Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Lightning Reflexes, Power Attack, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)
Suggested Epic Feats: Epic Prowess, Devastating Critical (bite), Overwhelming Critical (bite), Superior Initiative

Attack: bite or tail slap

Damage:  bite (8d6+Str), claws (4d8+1/2 Str), tail slap (4d8+1 and 1/2 Str)

30 foot reach with bite?

Damage reduction 15/epic and cold iron?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 11, 2005)

no alertness, flyby attack, and multiattack like the other linnorms?  

CR... (and then SR is that +14?)

skills - how about a selection from at least:

Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival

(he can have 18 maxed out skills, or more than 18 skills if not all are maxed out)


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> no alertness, flyby attack, and multiattack like the other linnorms?




Well, Flyby Attack ain't gonna help much if we don't give him a fly speed.    

As for the other two, I would definitely add Multiattack.   I missed it because I just took Jormy's list and paired it down, and he didn't need that feat.  I'd drop Epic Prowess to make room for it.  Alertness isn't really that beneficial at such a high level, but I suppose we could swap out Blind-Fight for it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> CR... (and then SR is that +14?)




Looking at the comparable-HD epic dragons, it would place his CR between 34-37.  Considering the high damage die of his breath weapon and variety of these weapons, I'd place him on the high end.  CR 37, SR 51.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> skills - how about a selection from at least:
> 
> Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival
> 
> (he can have 18 maxed out skills, or more than 18 skills if not all are maxed out)




Sounds good.  I'd go maxxed out in all the following:  Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (religion), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Swim, Tumble, Use Magic Device.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 11, 2005)

okie dokie.    updated again. there are a few other values there to consider...

i'll work on coming up with the flavor text ASAP.


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2005)

Based on this...



> The Midgard linnorm stores his wealth within the deepest chambers. Discarding coins and gems, the serpent elects to keep primarily magical treasure, and he employs some of that magic when venturing out of his lair. Also in his lair are remnants from visits to the surface-prows of Viking ships, statues from villages, large shields, and other trinkets.




...I'd make the treasure line something like:   no coins; standard goods; triple items.

Breath weapon save DCs = 45.  The check DCs should probably be the same, even though they are incredibly difficult.  Of course, this is an epic opponent.    

Constrict = tail slap damage (4d8+19)?

Crush = 8d6+13.

Tail sweep = 4d6+19.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - create water, detect thoughts (DC 21), protection from energy, water breathing; 1/day - acid fog, arcane eye, charm person (DC 20), charm monster (DC 23), control water, fog cloud, greater invisibility, greater teleport (DC 26), hypnotic pattern (DC 21), power word blind, power word stun, see invisibility, shapechange, solid fog, telekinesis (DC 24), veil (DC 25), wall of ice (DC 23), whispering wind. Caster level 14th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Apr 11, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd make the treasure line something like: no coins; standard goods; triple items.




since this was a weird one, I went and looked up the actual stats from the 2E DMG.  Remember, that each of these are x5 as per the MC entry.

S: 1-8 potions
T: 1-4 scrolls
U: 90% chance of 2-16 gems, 80% chance of 1-6 art objects, and 70% chance for 1 magic item
V: 2 magic items
W: 5-30 gp, 1-8 pp/ep, 60% chance of 2-16 gems, 50% chance of 1-8 art objects, 60% chance of 2 magic items
X: 2 potions

thus, assuming all the percentage rolls were favorable, Midgy would have:

5-20 scrolls
15-50 potions
25 additional random magic items
20-160 gems
10-70 art objects
25-150 gp
5-40 pp

so your assertion was close but needs a bit more.  Coins (while not negligible, are not impressive either), maybe 50% or even 10% standard.  Double goods, easily. Items should be double or even triple.


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## Krishnath (Apr 11, 2005)

Why not simply give it the dragon standard? i.e. Triple standard


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## Shade (Apr 11, 2005)

Krishnath said:
			
		

> Why not simply give it the dragon standard? i.e. Triple standard




Because randomly, that would turn up much more coins and goods than items, and he's not really into coins.

Based on BOZ's findings, how about:  10% coins; double goods; triple items?


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## BOZ (Apr 11, 2005)

perfecto.


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## BOZ (Apr 18, 2005)

finally found a moment to write up the flavor text...  go check it out.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2005)

Very nice work.    

How about 10,000 tons for weight?


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## BOZ (Apr 18, 2005)

thanks.  i'll try to get more into conversions this week.

[dr. evil]20 _million_ pounds.[/dr. evil]


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2005)

I love _goooooollllllddddd_!


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2005)

heheh.  

so is he looking done?


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## Krishnath (Apr 19, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> heheh.
> 
> so is he looking done?



I would say: Yes.

So, Yes.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2005)

I would say what Krishnath said, but he already said it, so I will simply nod in agreement.


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## BOZ (Apr 19, 2005)

sweetrock!


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## Clifford (May 17, 2005)

Can we do cerberus next?

Cliff


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## BOZ (May 17, 2005)

was he not in D&DG?  memory escapes me...


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## GrayLinnorm (May 18, 2005)

Cerberus is in the Tome of Horrors.  It's 3.0 though.


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## Shade (May 18, 2005)

They also hint that Cerberus is a brachyurus in the Epic-Level Handbook, but I'm not buying it.


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## BOZ (May 18, 2005)

me either.


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## Clifford (May 24, 2005)

*Cerby*

I do beleive he is in D&DG The Old One Anyway I dont remember seing him in the new one.

Anyway I do think Brach and maybe a hellhound might be good insparation for cerby. I think there is a multi headed template somewhere that we might be able to get some ideas from also.

CLiff


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## Clifford (May 24, 2005)

*Cerby*

If i might be so bold as to get the ball rolling.

I was thinking the folowing

Maybe about 55 hit dice

With the folowing Ability scores...

 Str 30, Dex 38, Con 47, Int 18, Wis 32, Cha 19 

These ability scores are for a base brachyurus Prolly need to be higher as if i remember corectly Cerby is larger.

This he would be an Outsider or Magical beast?

Cliff


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## BOZ (May 24, 2005)

i guess we can have our own version then, if people really want it.    give me a short while to get it ready.


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

1E Deities & Demigods

CERBERUS (guardian of Hades)
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVE: 24"
HIT DICE/POINTS: 30 hp per head/ 100 hit points for the body
% IN LAIR: 99%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-30/3-30/3-30
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Regeneration
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (30')
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/26,240

This beast is always found guarding the doorway to the House of Hades. It is a monstrous dog with 3 mastiff heads and a huge body He not only keeps beings out, he keeps them in, and cannot be magicked away from his post by any force.

Each head bites for 3-30 points; the middle head spews forth a powerful poisonous spittle up to 30' which kills on contact (no saving throw); the collective gaze of all 3 heads turns mortals to stone (one per round, saving throw applies). It attacks as a 16+ hit dice monster. Cerberus may only use one attack form per head per round. The creature regenerates 5 points per melee round.


2E Legends & Lore:

Cerberus
Cerberus is the giant, three-headed mastiff that guards the gates to the underworld. He will always allow dead people to enter the gates, but never permit them to leave. Living people must bribe him with a tasty treat to enter, but he will not permit them to leave, even if another such bribe is offered.
Although his master (Hades) occasionally allows him to roam about the earth free, Cerberus is most often found at the gates of Hades. If met here, nothing, including magic, can trick or force him into leaving his post.
If Cerberus is ever killed, Hades simply allows him to leave the underworld and journey back to the land of the living.

AC 1	No. 1	SZ 30’	XP: 12,000
MV 24	ML 18	AL ne	Int high
HD 22	HP 176	MR 15%	THAC0 -1
#AT 3	Dmg 1d12 (bite)

Special Att/Def:  Cerberus has three heads, each of which can bite in combat. If the middle head opts not to bite, it spews a stream of poison spittle to a range of 30’, causing death on contact (save versus death to negate). The collective stare of all three heads turns any mortal to stone (save versus petrification to negate). Cerberus regenerates 5 hit points per round.


One of my early conversions; never made it into the CC because of the ToH version of Cerby:

Cerberus (Guardian of Hades)
Huge Outsider
Hit Dice: 22d8+110 (209 hp)
Initiative: +7 (Dex, Improved Initiative)
Speed: 60 ft.
AC: 19 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +8 natural)
Attacks: 3 bites +26 melee
Damage: Bite 3d10+5
Face/Reach: 10 ft. by 20 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison Spittle, Petrifying Gaze
Special Qualities: Eternal Vigilance, Regeneration 5, SR 15
Saves: Fort +18 , Ref +16 , Will +25
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 20
Skills: Hide +33, Intimidate +35, Knowledge (Arcana) +22, Knowledge (Geography - Grey Waste) +22, Knowledge (The planes) +22, Knowledge (Religion) +22, Listen +60, Search +37, Sense Motive +40, Spot +60
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite) 

Climate/Terrain: Hades (a.k.a. Grey Waste)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: --- 

Cerberus is the giant, three-headed mastiff that guards the gates to the underworld. His body is monstrously huge, and each of his heads is constantly drooling poison, while breathing out rank dead breath. Cerberus is 30' long, and weighs over a ton.
   Cerberus never shirks his duty to the Olympian god Hades, as guardian to the gates of the Underworld of Hades (found on the plane also known as the Grey Waste). He is almost always found at the gates when on his home plane, although his master does occasionally allow him to roam the earth freely. He will always allow dead people to enter the gates, but living people must present a tasty treat as a bribe to get him to let them enter. He will not allow any being, alive or dead, to leave the underworld. If Cerberus is killed and therefore sent to the underworld, Hades simply allows him to leave and journey back to the land of the living.
   Cerberus speaks Common, and can speak the language of any being native to the plane of Hades. 

COMBAT
Cerberus will normally not engage in combat unless attacked first. He will fight to the death against anyone who attacks him or anyone who tries to leave the underworld without Hades' command. He can bite with any or all of his three heads, but he will often sacrifice one attack to spray his spittle. If he uses all of his attacks on one opponent, he may simply use his petrification attack to eliminate the victim.
   Poison Spittle (Su): Cerberus can spit forth a stream of poison from his middle head if he chooses not to bite with it. The spit is Contact poison with a range of 30', Fortitude save (DC 26); initial damage 3d6 Constitution, secondary damage instant death.
   Petrifying Gaze (Su): Once per round, Cerberus can turn all three of his heads to face a mortal opponent and turn his gaze upon his victim. The victim must make a Will saving throw (DC 26) or be turned to stone permanently.
   Eternal Vigilance (Su): Due to his master Hades' magics, Cerberus is unmatched in his guardianship ability. He cannot be magicked away from his post by any force, nor can he be tricked away by any means, magical or otherwise. Spells designed to move him or enchant him into leaving simply do not work, and any nonmagical attempts at deception are immediately shown to him for what they are. 

Cerberus first appeared in Deities and Demigods (Gary Gygax, 1980).


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## Shade (May 25, 2005)

The first question that comes to mind:   Outsider or Magical Beast (Extraplanar)?


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

Outsider?


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## Clifford (May 25, 2005)

Yeah outsider sounds good. He is like a Big assed hellhound.

Cliff


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## Shade (May 25, 2005)

That works for me.  Outsider is my favorite type.    

For Hit Dice, what was the ol' formula we used for unique 1E supercritters again, BOZ?  Hit points divided by 4.5?


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## Clifford (May 25, 2005)

i think that was the Formila HP/4.5

Giving cerby 42

(100 + heads x 3 (90) 190/4.5 = 42.Something or other.)

Cliff


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

well, it wasn't what we used with the titans. (followed by 1E hp, then our 3.5 E HD)

Atlas – 350 – 41
Coeus – 344 – 40
Crius – 390 – 49
Cronus – 400 – 51
Epimetheus – 345 – 40
Oceanus – 390 – 49
Prometheus – 388 – 48

we didn't use a specific formula for those, just a sort of guesstimation... they wind up being roughly 12% on average.  so 12% of 190 = 22, which for that matter is the same amount of HD that the 2E designers gave him.


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## Shade (May 25, 2005)

Well, who can argue with that logic.


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## BOZ (May 25, 2005)

LOL  anyone.


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## Clifford (May 26, 2005)

Well i guess i could go back to my "Standard" Bailor Argument I used ber That first criter but Why bother 22 seems a bit low though. The brachyurus has more. And i think cerby being unique should outshine thes glorified wolves. Anyway just my two cents.

Cliff


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## Shade (May 26, 2005)

I have no problem bumping him up to 42.  He is a legendary unique creature, after all.

I think we used the HD/4.5 formula for things like archfiends, dragon rulers, etc.

I also found this old thread, which by the findings in post #43, he'd have 38 Hit Dice in 3E.  

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=1218125&postcount=43


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## BOZ (May 26, 2005)

i'll consider it.


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## BOZ (May 26, 2005)

First off, regarding monsters in the ELH… I think the designers had good intentions in mind, but I think they really screwed some things up in terms of monster design by having so many non-unique epic monsters.  When the “ordinary” monsters of that type are so powerful already, how much more powerful does a unique monster of that type need to be?  So I never have, and likely never will, set the power level of a conversion based on something in the ELH.  If you need a monster with 50+ HD, I say give it class levels or advance it normally.

The archfiends in the BoVD all have HD in their 20s and 30s.  granted, this book came out before the power climb of 3.5, so that may be besides the point.  However, I can’t think of a good reason to make Cerberus higher than the most powerful of the archfiends – but maybe it couldn’t hurt to put him in the midst of them.

I’m willing to go as high as 32-HD, 10 over my original estimation, but no more than that.


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## Shade (May 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> First off, regarding monsters in the ELH… I think the designers had good intentions in mind, but I think they really screwed some things up in terms of monster design by having so many non-unique epic monsters.  When the “ordinary” monsters of that type are so powerful already, how much more powerful does a unique monster of that type need to be?  So I never have, and likely never will, set the power level of a conversion based on something in the ELH.  If you need a monster with 50+ HD, I say give it class levels or advance it normally.
> 
> The archfiends in the BoVD all have HD in their 20s and 30s.  granted, this book came out before the power climb of 3.5, so that may be besides the point.  However, I can’t think of a good reason to make Cerberus higher than the most powerful of the archfiends – but maybe it couldn’t hurt to put him in the midst of them.
> 
> I’m willing to go as high as 32-HD, 10 over my original estimation, but no more than that.





Epic-hata'!    

But seriously, 50 HD ain't that big a deal anymore.  The tarrasque has 48 HD at CR 20.  The greater siege crab has 32 HD at CR 18.  The battletitan dinosaur has 36 HD at CR 16.  It's the abilities that make-or-break the critter.   

I found this out recently when making critters to challenge my epic party.  Compare Dispater with his "weak" 34 HD to the higher-CR 3-head sirrush in the ELH, which has 45 HD.  The sirrush has great attacks, pounce, and a stunning roar, while ol' dispater can turn you to iron with a touch (save DC 40) and then reduce you to dust with another touch.   

I guess what I'm getting at is that if all Cerby has going for him is brute strength and 3 bites, the extra HD aren't gonna make him eclipse the archfiends.   Now if he has a truckload of spell-like abilities, that's another story.    

All that said, I'll settle for 32 HD.


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## Clifford (May 26, 2005)

Maybe a fiery breath weapon? I know the old cerby dosent have one but i think in spirit he should he is the classic hell hound after all.

Anyway figure cerby has to heep even the most powerful heroes in and out of hadies. So i think maybe some higher hd are in order.

38 dosent sound too bad for hit dice but those "Stock Bracherus"   have bout that many.

Cliff


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

is he supposed to be able to hold his own against demon lords, titans, and such, or is he just Hades' pet?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Epic-hata'!




i've been called worse.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

Clifford said:
			
		

> Maybe a fiery breath weapon? I know the old cerby dosent have one but i think in spirit he should he is the classic hell hound after all.




A cool idea for a variant, but we try to be very faithful to the source material with our conversions.



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Anyway figure cerby has to heep even the most powerful heroes in and out of hadies. So i think maybe some higher hd are in order.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is he supposed to be able to hold his own against demon lords, titans, and such, or is he just Hades' pet?




That is a good question.  We know from mythology that it had to keep out mortals of any "power level", but did Cerby ever try to keep out deities or demigods (the closest comparison to archfiends in Greek mythology)?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i've been called worse.




Just teasing.


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> That is a good question.  We know from mythology that it had to keep out mortals of any "power level", but did Cerby ever try to keep out deities or demigods (the closest comparison to archfiends in Greek mythology)?




I don’t think there was very much of a distinction – if any.  I’ve seen the same beings referred to as gods and as not-gods in varying sources.  Some say the titans were gods, some don’t.  Cerby should definitely be a CR 20 at least, but I don’t know that he should be able to whup an epic-level party per se.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

Maybe we should work Cerby in reverse...decide on his CR first, then tweak his HD to fit the CR?


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

that might work.    i say CR 20.  he shouldn't be undefeatable - remember, myths might say that something cannot be beaten or stopped, but in D&D anything can be beaten.   

something that can beat cerberus is likely to attract the attention of more powerful beings anyway...

don't forget the poison spit, petrifying gaze, SR, and fast healing.  we could probably give him a little more beyond that, as the situation warrants; we will debate this at a later time.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

Cool.  Then we can use the tarrasque as a baseline.

Big T has: 

48 Hit Dice
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, frightful presence, improved grab, rush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Carapace, damage reduction 15/epic, immunity to fire, poison, disease, energy drain, and ability damage, regeneration 40, scent, spell resistance 32

I think we'll easily be able to accommodate the desired Hit Dice from earlier.


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

well, scent for sure.    maybe blindsight too.

DR wouldn't hurt, and some resistances and possibly an immunity or two.

augmented critical sounds nice.   

keep in mind, for big T i'm sure there are factors keeping his CR so low compared to his HD.  low Int would be one, i'm sure.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

DR/epic seems appropriate.

For resistances/immunities, I'd look to the Hades petitioners and the yugoloths for inspiration:


Hades petitioners: Cold and fire immunity; electricity resistance 10, acid resistance 10
Yugoloths:  Immunity to acid and poison.   Resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.

So immunity or resistance to acid, cold, and fire, electricity resistance 10, and possibly immunity to poison (which ties in nicely with his poison spittle).  

I think this ability from the gorynych would also suit him nicely.    

Rend (Ex): If a gorynych hits with two bite attacks, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the victim apart like a wishbone. This attack automatically deals an extra 4d8+13 points of damage.


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

Immunity to petrification and poison.  Resistance 10 to acid, cold, electricity, fire sounds good.

I like the rend as well.


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## Shade (May 27, 2005)

Cool.    

I like the eternal vigilance from your original conversion.  Perhaps ability to mind-affecting abilities as well?


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## BOZ (May 27, 2005)

the concept is good, but might need a bit of reworking.  immunity to mind-affecting should be useful.


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## Clifford (Jun 1, 2005)

So can we agree, 42 HD, Poison, Petrafying. Advanced Bracherous-ish in power?

Cliff


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## BOZ (Jun 2, 2005)

i'll get back to this one sooner or later...

and just to make a point: the brachyrus entry refers to the Fenris Wolf, not Cerberus (unless i'm missing that and it refers to both).


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## Clifford (Jun 2, 2005)

Yup only fenris but it dose seem a good starting point for cerby. I think the savage abilities and frightful howl seem apropreate for the guardian of the gates to the underworld. Just my two cents though.

Anyway


CLiff


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## BOZ (Jun 2, 2005)

i agree on the savage, not sure on the howl though.  there was another ability it had (rend?) that i liked.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2005)

Are you thinking of the "wishbone" I posted earlier from the gorynych?


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## BOZ (Jun 2, 2005)

right - it'll be that, since it's like a rend but slightly better.


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## Clifford (Jun 2, 2005)

Wishbone eh. Is that something like cergy biteing a leg with each head and making a wish. A wish like "I wish these adventurers would come with kegs of Bar-b-Que sause strapped to their backs." I guess either way cerby wins!

Cliff


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2005)

Yeah, pretty much.


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## Clifford (Jun 5, 2005)

Ok so what next?

Cliff


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## BOZ (Jun 24, 2005)

i'm officially no longer afraid to pile on Hit Dice.    but, it needs to be an appropriate amount.  for now, let's leave the number open.  i'll get back to that later.  i've settled on CR 20 being appropriate.  i don't think he should be unkillable, because:



			
				2E Legends & Lore said:
			
		

> If Cerberus is ever killed, Hades simply allows him to leave the underworld and journey back to the land of the living.




here are his two special attacks as i originally wrote them, once upon a time:

   Poison Spittle (Su): Cerberus can spit forth a stream of poison from his middle head if he chooses not to bite with it. The spit is Contact poison with a range of 30', Fortitude save (DC 26); initial damage 3d6 Constitution, secondary damage instant death.

   Petrifying Gaze (Su): Once per round, Cerberus can turn all three of his heads to face a mortal opponent and turn his gaze upon his victim. The victim must make a Will saving throw (DC 26) or be turned to stone permanently.



			
				1E D&DG said:
			
		

> Each head bites for 3-30 points; the middle head spews forth a powerful poisonous spittle up to 30' which kills on contact (no saving throw); the collective gaze of all 3 heads turns mortals to stone (one per round, saving throw applies). It attacks as a 16+ hit dice monster. Cerberus may only use one attack form per head per round. The creature regenerates 5 points per melee round.






			
				2E Legends & Lore said:
			
		

> Cerberus has three heads, each of which can bite in combat. If the middle head opts not to bite, it spews a stream of poison spittle to a range of 30’, causing death on contact (save versus death to negate). The collective stare of all three heads turns any mortal to stone (save versus petrification to negate).




let's work on these two powers for the moment, and come back to the HD issues later.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm officially no longer afraid to pile on Hit Dice.    but, it needs to be an appropriate amount.  for now, let's leave the number open.  i'll get back to that later.  i've settled on CR 20 being appropriate.




It's about time you came around.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't think he should be unkillable, because:




That's plausible.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> here are his two special attacks as i originally wrote them, once upon a time:
> 
> Poison Spittle (Su): Cerberus can spit forth a stream of poison from his middle head if he chooses not to bite with it. The spit is Contact poison with a range of 30', Fortitude save (DC 26); initial damage 3d6 Constitution, secondary damage instant death.
> 
> ...




Does this help?

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 34, initial damage paralysis, secondary damage 1d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Spit (Ex): A greater ssvaklor can spit a concentrated glob of its poison at a target. It makes a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 30 feet. If it hits, the poison is a contact poison but its effects are otherwise identical to those of its poison bite.

Here's the medusa's petrifiying gaze.  it looks like Fort rather than Will.

Petrifying Gaze (Su): Turn to stone permanently, 30 feet, Fortitude DC 15 negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

We can borrow from this if you want to force him to "aim" his gaze:

Domination (Su): A vampire spawn can crush an opponent’s will just by looking onto his or her eyes. This is similar to a gaze attack, except that the vampire must take a standard action, and those merely looking at it are not affected. Anyone the vampire targets must succeed on a DC 14 Will save or fall instantly under the vampire’s influence as though by a dominate person spell from a 5thlevel caster. The ability has a range of 30 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Jun 29, 2005)

How's this?

Poison (Ex): Contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 3d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Spit (Ex): Cerberus can spit a stream of powerful poisonous spittle from his middle head at a target.  He makes a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 30 feet.


I don't know that aiming the gaze is necessary; how's this?

Petrifying Gaze (Su): Turn to stone permanently, 30? feet, Fortitude DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.  Cerberus must gaze at a single target using all three of his heads.  He cannot use his gaze attack if he makes a spit attack or bite attack with at least one of his heads.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

I think those will work.


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## BOZ (Jun 29, 2005)

good deal. 

how about ability scores for our CR 20 puppy?  these are the scores i had set for him way back when and are entirely subject to change:
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 20
(for comparison, ToH's version had: Str 36, Dex 24, Con 31, Int 25, Wis 25, Cha 24)


This ability needs a bit of clarification:

   Eternal Vigilance (Su): Due to his master Hades' magics, Cerberus is unmatched in his guardianship ability. He cannot be magicked away from his post by any force, nor can he be tricked away by any means, magical or otherwise. Spells designed to move him or enchant him into leaving simply do not work, and any nonmagical attempts at deception are immediately shown to him for what they are. 

I say it should be split up a bit into immunity to mind-affecting effects, and a big bonus to Sense Motive (+10 at least).  Any magical effect that would teleport him or move him from his current location would automatically fail unless he allowed it.


Maybe he also could also have some doggie-like stuff such as a Trip attack and the ability to track by scent.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

Updating a dire wolf to Huge yields...

Abilities: Str 33, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10

Updating a Nessian warhound to Huge yields...

Str 34, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 6

The mivilorn elite demon warmount (already size Huge) has...

Str 35, Dex 11, Con 30, Int 4, Wis 17, Cha 12

The multiheaded creature template suggests adding +2 Con per additional head.

Taking all this into consideration, I'd recommend:

Str 33-35+, Dex 11-13, Con 25-34, Int 11-14+ (based on very to high from past sources), Wis 17+, Cha 12+

Summarizing the abilities we already gave it:

Blindsight, immunity to petrification and poison. resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10, scent

Petrifying Gaze (Su): Turn to stone permanently, 30? feet, Fortitude DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based. Cerberus must gaze at a single target using all three of his heads. He cannot use his gaze attack if he makes a spit attack or bite attack with at least one of his heads.

Poison (Ex): Contact, Fortitude DC X, initial and secondary damage 3d6 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Rend (Ex): If a gorynych hits with two bite attacks, it latches onto the opponent's body and tears the victim apart like a wishbone. This attack automatically deals an extra 4d8+13 points of damage.

Spit (Ex): Cerberus can spit a stream of powerful poisonous spittle from his middle head at a target. He makes a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 30 feet.

Other good doggy abilities:

Trip (Ex): A dire wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+11 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the dire wolf.

Skills: Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks. *Dogs have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> This ability needs a bit of clarification:
> 
> Eternal Vigilance (Su): Due to his master Hades' magics, Cerberus is unmatched in his guardianship ability. He cannot be magicked away from his post by any force, nor can he be tricked away by any means, magical or otherwise. Spells designed to move him or enchant him into leaving simply do not work, and any nonmagical attempts at deception are immediately shown to him for what they are.
> 
> I say it should be split up a bit into immunity to mind-affecting effects, and a big bonus to Sense Motive (+10 at least).  Any magical effect that would teleport him or move him from his current location would automatically fail unless he allowed it.




This might be a good start, from a template in a past issue of Dragon:

Bonded Area (Ex): The glyph guardian is mystically made a part of its guardian domain and as such is physically incapable of leaving it. The DM must define this area before the encounter begins. The area could be as small as a single room or as large as an entire castle complex, but it can be no larger than an area that can be encompassed in a 1,000-foot-diameter sphere.

The glyph guardian cannot step out of its bonded area for any reason, nor can it be forcibly removed by any magical means; all such attempts fail. Not even the glyph guardian's creator can order it beyond the area it was created to guard. It is possible to use physical means, such as pushing the glyph guardian out the area, but the glyph guardian teleports (see below) or simply walks back in as soon as it is able if it cannot use its teleport ability. Should it be impossible for it to enter or stay in the bonded area (the room it is bonded to is filled with stone, the floor has been replaced by a pit, and so on) the glyph guardian loses the glyph guardian template and becomes a normal golem under the command of its creator.


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## BOZ (Jun 29, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updating a dire wolf to Huge yields...
> 
> Abilities: Str 33, Dex 13, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
> 
> ...




i'm going to give him Str 36 and Con 34, and stick with my original Dex of 16.    those mental stats seem kind of low - and for epic critters, we usually cut some slack on the old Int score designations since the chart only went as high as 25.   

how about this?

Eternal Vigilance (Su): Cerberus cannot be forcibly moved or removed by any magical means; all such attempts fail. It is possible to use physical means to move him, such as pushing him, but he simply walks back to his post as soon as he is able.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm going to give him Str 36 and Con 34, and stick with my original Dex of 16.    those mental stats seem kind of low - and for epic critters, we usually cut some slack on the old Int score designations since the chart only went as high as 25.




That works for me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Eternal Vigilance (Su): Cerberus cannot be forcibly moved or removed by any magical means; all such attempts fail. It is possible to use physical means to move him, such as pushing him, but he simply walks back to his post as soon as he is able.




Coolness.


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## BOZ (Jun 29, 2005)

i had set his other scores as Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 20.  do any of those seem too high, or about right?  IIRC, the Wis was that high to keep his Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot high.


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i had set his other scores as Int 24, Wis 30, Cha 20.  do any of those seem too high, or about right?  IIRC, the Wis was that high to keep his Listen, Sense Motive, and Spot high.




Well, are you comfortable with him being wiser than Demogorgon and have the same Int and Cha has Juiblex, then yeah.  Otherwise, you might want to tone him down to Wis 26 (same as a pit fiend).  The other two stats are probably fine, since Juiblex is an ugly, stupid blob.


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## BOZ (Jun 30, 2005)

What would be a good amount of natural armor for him to have?  For example, the ToH version has +29.

I also noticed that the 1E D&DG has "30 hp per head" listed.  Do we want to give him a hydra-style head chopping thing or do we not want to go there?  


OK, posting what I have so far, in homebrews.  Here's the trick.  Keeping in mind that our target CR is 20, we need to figure out what HD will work best given the abilities he has.  Rather than throwing numbers out there, try a few variations.  It's going to be somewhere between 25-50 HD, I'm sure.  

Say, try him at 35 HD.  Calculate his hp, saves, attack rolls, skill points, # of feats, and save DCs.  Does what you come up with seem comparable to other CR 20 critters?  If too low, try 40-HD, and if too high try 30.  keep adjusting the numbers through trial and error until you get something that feels comfortable, and we can discuss it.

This is the method, I think, that I would like to use on epic-level beings from now on.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> What would be a good amount of natural armor for him to have?  For example, the ToH version has +29.




Well, tarrasque has +30, balor +19, pit fiend +23, and shivhad +26.  Thus, I think the +29 works just fine.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I also noticed that the 1E D&DG has "30 hp per head" listed.  Do we want to give him a hydra-style head chopping thing or do we not want to go there?




Don't go there.       Neither the three-headed sirrush, the tayellah, or other three-headed critters I've seen have this weakness.  A vorpal sword can still take a head, of course.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, posting what I have so far, in homebrews.  Here's the trick.  Keeping in mind that our target CR is 20, we need to figure out what HD will work best given the abilities he has.  Rather than throwing numbers out there, try a few variations.  It's going to be somewhere between 25-50 HD, I'm sure.
> 
> Say, try him at 35 HD.  Calculate his hp, saves, attack rolls, skill points, # of feats, and save DCs.  Does what you come up with seem comparable to other CR 20 critters?  If too low, try 40-HD, and if too high try 30.  keep adjusting the numbers through trial and error until you get something that feels comfortable, and we can discuss it.
> 
> This is the method, I think, that I would like to use on epic-level beings from now on.




35 HD gives him +35 BAB, +17 to all saves, 15 skills at 38 ranks, 12 feats (5 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.

Comparing to CR 20 peers:

Tarrasque:  48 HD, +48 BAB, +26/+26/+16 to saves, 51 skill points, 17 feats, and attack modifiers of +57

Swamp Landwyrm:  36 HD, +36 BAB, +20 to all saves, 9 skills at 39 ranks, 13 feats, and attack modifiers of +46/+44.

So, for what he is (a brute with good Ex and Su abilties), he fits somewhere between the swamp landwyrm and the tarrasque, which should work for CR 20


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## BOZ (Jul 2, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Don't go there.       Neither the three-headed sirrush, the tayellah, or other three-headed critters I've seen have this weakness.  A vorpal sword can still take a head, of course.




LOL  okie dokie  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 35 HD gives him +35 BAB, +17 to all saves, 15 skills at 38 ranks, 12 feats (5 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.
> 
> Comparing to CR 20 peers:
> 
> ...




well, naturally anything that's a magical beast, dragon, or outsider is going to have a high BAB.  since he's an outsider with a pretty good Int, he's going to get a ton of skills.  feats are an automatic function of HD.  besides that, you need to consider what his role his special attacks and qualities play in his combat effectiveness.

Look at your two examples, for instance.  the tarrasque has a lot more HD and attack values, and generally superior base saves.  it's lacking in skills because it is unintelligent.  therefore, the difference needs to be made up somewhere else.  the landwyrm is a dragon, so it automatically gets some good stuff there.  without looking the two creatures up, i'm going to guess that the landwyrm has some pretty superior powers to the tarrasque.

thus, it's not only these stats which matter, but the whole package as well.

by your comparison, 35-HD is way too low unless he has even better powers than the landwyrm - which i'm sure he does not.  and we know he's got slightly better powers and abilities than the tarrasque, as well as the advantage of having the Outsider type instead of the Magical Beast type.  thus, i have to agree that his HD makes sense to go between the only two examples of CR 20 i have seen.

if you increase the sample you gave of him, 
40 HD gives him +40 BAB, +22 to all saves, 15 skills at 43 ranks, 14 feats (7 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.45 HD gives him +45 BAB, +23 to all saves, 15 skills at 48 ranks, 16 feats (9 of which can be epic), and attack modifiers of +46.
i think it's likely that if neither of those are perfect, he should be in between them.


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## Clifford (Jul 5, 2005)

On the wish bone could there be a fortitude save involved. to Avoid actualy loosing a limb?

Cliff


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2005)

It's not necessary.  It simply does extra damage.  Since 3E pretty much eliminated the loss of limbs (sword of sharpness, we hardly knew ye...) except for heads, it is simplified to simply extra damage.   :\


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> It's not necessary. It simply does extra damage. Since 3E pretty much eliminated the loss of limbs (sword of sharpness, we hardly knew ye...) except for heads, it is simplified to simply extra damage. :\



That was dumb.  Why did they bother to include regenerate then? When we finally get around to converting the sea hermit, I would suggest keeping its limb severing abilities.


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2005)

You're preaching to the choir.    

I always liked the sword of sharpness, and was disappointed to see it gone in 3E.  It's easy enough to house rule, though, as the DMG gives rules for damage or loss of certain body parts.


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## BOZ (Jul 6, 2005)

i feel the same way.  besides, i don't think the gorynych originally ripped its victim apart with the wishbone unless the attack actually killed it.  i would expect to see the same thing for Cerby here.


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## BOZ (Jul 6, 2005)

so... comments on this post?


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## Clifford (Jul 6, 2005)

Well in starward in the heroes guide on a critical if you back it up within the weapons threat range you blow or chop something off.

Maybe if either of cerbies bite attacks fal into this range and if both hit the wishbone can Dislimb someone. Some sugjestions.

Arm: Cant use arm untill regenerated And a corisponding inability to use two handed weapons. Maybe some ability damage?

Leg: 1/2 movement and cant Run or sprint. Maybe Some ability damage.

head: Yeah well sorry sucker you are dead.

handy dandy random table to determine The severed part.

1-5 Leg

6-9 Arm

10 Head

Waddya think?

Cliff


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## Clifford (Jul 6, 2005)

BOZ Wrote

so... comments on this post? 

--------------------------------------

Well i think our cerby should definatly be better than cr 20. This is an epic monster thread after all =P

Also neither of the monsters despite haveing tons of hd have epic feats that might be a factor on its Cr as well i think 45 hd sounds right. Cerby Should kick some Copious ammounts of ass.

Cliff
>=)


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## BOZ (Jul 6, 2005)

45 is the max i'm thinking.  if that's how high he needs to be, that's fine.

if you want him higher than CR 20, you can always advance him when we're done.


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## Clifford (Jul 7, 2005)

Wait a second is our cerby going to be a race. What with that advancment comment? I thought we were going all unique with him.

Clif
>=)


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## BOZ (Jul 7, 2005)

you, in your home campaign, can advance him beyond what we as a group come up with, yes.  and why wouldn't you be able to?


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2005)

Oh no...you just gave me visions of the Cerebulings, an ECL +0 race that waters him down to be a playable race at 1st-level (in the same vein as shifters, changelings, spikers, mephlings, etc.)


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## BOZ (Jul 7, 2005)

*banishes Shade from the CC forums for life*


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2005)

Well, I guess you won't be getting that alacrity response.


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## BOZ (Jul 7, 2005)

heh  

OK, updated Cerby in homebrews to reflect 45-HD.  how does that look so far?


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2005)

He actually looks pretty damn good!   He compares nicely with tarrasque.


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## BOZ (Jul 10, 2005)

ok, we have ahcieved consensus.  

skill points = 720.  (15 at max ranks 48)

feats = 16.


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2005)

I just noticed that the death dogs in the FF are listed as "descendants of the mythical three-headed dog Cerberus".  I forgot about those critters.    

That said, they've got....
Skills: Hide +3, Listen +6, Move Silently +4, Spot +4
Feats: Weapon Focus (bite)

Cerby definitiely needs max ranks in Spot, Search, and Listen.

Here are my suggestions:

Skills:  Balance 48, Hide 48, Intimidate 48, Jump 48, Knowledge (arcana) 48, Knowledge (the planes) 48, Knowledge (religion) 48, Listen 48, Move Silently 48, Search 48, Sense Motive 48, Spot 48, Survival 48, Swim 48, Tumble 48

Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)

Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Reflexes, Epic Skill Focus (Listen), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Will, Superior Initiative


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## BOZ (Jul 12, 2005)

I like your feat selections just fine. 

As for skills, I think it's boring to cop-out and just give something all max ranks.    I figure he could use another one, two, or more of the following skills: Climb, Bluff and/or Diplomacy, Knowledge (geography and/or local), Spellcraft


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## Clifford (Jul 12, 2005)

It sure has allot of epic feats for not being epic. I think i read somewhere a creature cannot have epic feats unless it has a cr 21 or over. and sense this is the epic monster thread on the princaple alone shouldent we modify creby to have a cr of 21+ (!.E. epic) CR?

And oh yeah death dogs i forgot about those too.

Cliff
>=)


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## Shade (Jul 12, 2005)

A creature can qualify for epic feats once its HD and levels total 21 or greater.  So a t-rex can qualify by advancing it to CR 9!    

BOZ - While I don't think it is a cop-out in all cases (some creatures simply don't need many skills, so max ranks make sense), I think your additional suggestions of Bluff, Climb, and Diplomacy all work just fine for Cerby.  I don't think he'd need Spellcraft, and the two additional Knowledge skills don't offer him much in his limited environment.


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## BOZ (Jul 12, 2005)

Shade, sounds good.    how about: Balance 38, Bluff 30, Climb 20, Diplomacy 30, Hide 48, Intimidate 48, Jump 28, Knowledge (arcana) 48, Knowledge (religion) 48, Knowledge (the planes) 48, Listen 48, Move Silently 38, Search 48, Sense Motive 48, Spot 48, Survival 38, Swim 38, Tumble 28

Clifford, will it help you sleep better at night if i bring him up to CR 21?


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2005)

Reverse the ranks in Swim and Tumble and I'll be happy.

And CR 21 is fine with me.


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## BOZ (Jul 13, 2005)

updating... if he looks fine with CR 21 as-is, i guess i don't mind upping it.


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## Shade (Jul 13, 2005)

Looking him over again, I think CR 21 is just fine.  The tarrasque is on the high-end of CR 20, anyway, whom we originally used as our benchmark.

He's looking good.   Here's some suggestions for filling in the X's.

Blindsight 240 ft 
damage reduction 10/epic 
fast healing 20

Spell resistance:  His MR was rather low previously, so perhaps only 27 (CR + 6)?

Skills: Cerberus has a +8 racial bonus on Sense Motive checks. 

*Cerberus has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

For vision, should be also give him keen senses like dragons to help make him the ultimate watchdog?


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

yikes, but wouldn't blindsight and keen senses be overkill?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

Not necessarily.  Dragons have both blindsense and keen senses.   Keen senses would mainly help him see much further in conditions of normal light and shadowy illumination, usually much further than his blindsight would allow.


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

well, OK i guess, you want that then?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

Yeah.  Let's make him the super-sentry he strives to be.


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

updating!


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

Init should be +11 due to Superior Initiative.

Double-checking Skills:
Balance +43 (38 +3 Dex +2 Tumble), Bluff +35 (30 +5 Cha), Climb +33 (20 +13 Str), Diplomacy +39 (30 +5 Cha +2 Bluff +2 Sense Motive), Hide +43 (48 -8 size +3 Dex), Intimidate +55 (48 +5 Cha +2 Bluff), Jump +55 (28 +13 Str +12 speed +2 Jump), Knowledge (arcana) +55 (48 +7 Int), Knowledge (religion) +55 (48 +7 Int), Knowledge (the planes) +55 (48 +7 Int), Listen +66 (48 +8 Wis +10 Epic Skill Focus), Move Silently +41 (38 +3 Dex), Search +55 (48 +7 Int), Sense Motive +64 (48 +8 Wis +8 racial), Spot +66 (48 +8 Wis +10 Epic Skill Focus), Survival +36* (+38 following tracks, +38 on other planes) (28 +8 Wis +2 other planes from Know the planes +2 tracking from Search), Swim +41 (38 +13 Str), Tumble +43 (38 +3 Dex +2 Jump)


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

Rend damage =  6d6+19 (A rend attack deals damage equal to the creature's natural attack [in this case two bites] + 1.5 times its Str modifier)

Trip modifier = +21 (+8 size +13 Str)


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## BOZ (Jul 14, 2005)

duh, forgot the synergy bonuses...

does he get some sort of bonus to Trip for being a quadruped?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2005)

He'd get a +4 when defending against a trip, but not for initiating it.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

ah, OK.  well then, updating again!


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

It might need to weigh more than a ton.  The mivilorn, also size Huge and doglike, weighs at least 8 tons and is only 18 feet long.  So Cerby is almost twice as long, so maybe 15 tons?

Otherwise, I think he's done.

I'd like to put in a request for Ma-Yuan, killer of the gods from DD&G.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

heheh, good choice.

30-foot range for his gaze?  other than that, yeah i'd say he finally looks done.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2005)

30-foot seems fine.


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## BOZ (Jul 15, 2005)

groovy.  updating to finish this one off.


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## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

Here he is, the man himself!  

Thoughts...  yes, it says, "killer of the gods".  But then, in 1E, it was a heck of a lot easier to kill gods.    I'd say he might be powerful enough to take out some DvR1 or even 2 demigods, but only after a tough fight (or if the god is unusually weak), though he shouldn't have as much of a challenge with avatars.  He has 300 hp, which is more than Cerberus, but less than most of the Titans in the same book, so I would make his CR between the two groups, like 22-25.


MA YUAN (killer of the gods)

FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 24"/24"/ /24"
HIT DICE/POINTS: 300 hp
%	IN LAIR: 10%
TREASURE TYPE: A (X 5)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-30 (X 4)/5-40
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +3 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 65%
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (70')
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/32,300

This monster has 3 eyes in his tyrannosaurus-shaped head, and has 4 large humanoid arms. He has the strength of a storm giant, but rarely relies on this in battle. He also has a powerful magical device shaped in the form of a small triangular piece of stone that has the power to turn into any weapon the holder wishes, magical or otherwise. This monster's favorite tactic is to make a weapon from his stone that is double the power of the one being used against him. The creature is known to have killed at least 10 minor deities. It attacks as a 16+ hit dice monster, The existence of Ma Yuan prevents complacency among the gods.



some preliminary stats for Ma Yuan:

* Ma Yuan (killer of the gods)*
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: Xd8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares), fly 60 ft (good?), swim 60 ft
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: 4 (arms) +X melee (X+X) and bite +X melee (X+X) (depicted carrying a sword)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/epic, darkvision 60 ft, spell resistance X
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str 39+, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 
Feats: 

Environment: (Any evil-aligned plane?)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Ma Yuan is 70 feet tall, and weighs X tons.

COMBAT

Ma Yuan?s natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned, evil-aligned, and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Originally found in the first edition Deities and Demigods (1980, James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz).


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2005)

I agree with your CR assessment and god-killing abilities.    

Now, using the "divide HD by 4.5" method, he'd have 66 HD.  That would be crazy for an outsider with numerous cool special abilities.  However, he has nearly none, so it might not be that ridiculous.  So, would you prefer to keep him "as-is", namely a straightforward combat brute, or add some spell-like abilities, etc.?


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## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

he's not going to kill too many gods with just brute strength is he?    he'll need resistances and immunities for one... what else might he need to be able to beat a demigod?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2005)

Check this out:  http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/divine.html

I'm thinking being able to deal out horrendous amounts of damage and bypass epic DR (which he can by virtue of his own epic DR) might go a long way.


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## BOZ (Jul 16, 2005)

ooh cool, i can even view that page at work!  

allright, if you think that's the way to go, i'm cool with that.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Let's give it a shot and see where it takes us.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

o-tay!  classic bruiser tough guy it is.


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## Clifford (Jul 18, 2005)

Maybe Divine rank 0? seems like he might have some Divine rank to help Smoke those dieties. Also 66 sounds Spiffy as most gods have atleast 60 DH/levels (20 outsider + 40 ish class levels.)

His weird Triangle thingy is prolly an artifact. May is jugjest the folowing powers for it. My idea dosent fit the descritpion but it dose fit the spirit of the item and the monster. By the old description the creature could make a +1000 spear or something freakish like that. 

Talisman of Ma Yuan
This small triangular peice of stone has many potent and varries powers. It can Chang into any weapon. This weapon is of the same side at the weilder of Ma Yuans Talisman for single handed weapons and one size catagory larger for 2 handed weapons.

This weapon counts as a +6 Keen, divine Dread weapon of the appropriate type. Also The weilder of the talasman may designate aditional Enchantment bonuses at whim upto an aditional +8 worth of bonuses. 
For example the weilder is battling a red dragon and thus may make the weapon become a Icey burst weapon (+2) and A dragon bane weapon (+2) And top the rest out as aditional engancment bonuses (+4 for a total of +10)

ABILITY SCORES
here are my sugjestions

Str 45, Dex 18, Con 34, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 25
Going off 66 hit dice this means.

23 feats
7 normal + 15 posibly epic.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

If we assign it divine rank 0, does it gain a bunch of additional powers?  Alternatively, we could make him an abomination (as is the hectatoncheires, another "killer of the gods").

Interesting start on the "triangle-thingee".    

I think he actually gets one more epic feat:  [(66-21)/3]+1 = 16.

For the ability scores, I'd bump the Strength up to 50.  Some of the other epic outsiders that aren't as large are that strong.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

i'd be more inclined to go with the abomination-like-ness than giving him a DvR.  but that's just me.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

before assigning any stats to him, i think we need to settle on a CR first.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Thoughts...  yes, it says, "killer of the gods".  But then, in 1E, it was a heck of a lot easier to kill gods.    I'd say he might be powerful enough to take out some DvR1 or even 2 demigods, but only after a tough fight (or if the god is unusually weak), though he shouldn't have as much of a challenge with avatars.  He has 300 hp, which is more than Cerberus, but less than most of the Titans in the same book, so I would make his CR between the two groups, like 22-25.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

25.  That way he's the equivalent of a mid-ranged archfiend or celestial paragon.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

grrrreat!    now, given that and the fact that he is Colossal, how does Clifford's suggested Dex 18, Con 34, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 25 with Shade's Str 50 sound?  especially when compared to archfiends and paragons who are similar in CR?


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

It is tough to compare Str to similar archfiends, as none are Colossal!  However, it is only 5 higher than the CR 20 tarrasque, equal to the CR 25 adamantine golem, and 20 less than the CR 24 stone colossus.


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## BOZ (Jul 18, 2005)

does the fact that he has four arms make a difference there?


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2005)

Possibly.  The mithral golem gets 2-3 attacks (it has an alacrity ability it can use for an extra standard action) and the tarrasque gets 6.  Since Ma Yuan uses weapons, though, he'll get four attacks with his primary and at least one with each of his other four, so we might have to tone him down.  Let's try Clifford's original suggestion of 45 and see where it leads.


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## Clifford (Jul 18, 2005)

I dunno if cr 25 is good though i mean even most of the weaker gods have 40 character levels. Cr 25 would parely be a challenge for them.

Abomination might be good but that basicaly is Divine rank 0 heh

>=)


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 19, 2005)

I'm just thinking, since Ma Yuan is an oriental outsider, do you think we should give him the Spirit subtype?


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## BOZ (Jul 19, 2005)

Clifford = powergamer.    heh  

GrayLinnorm: good point!  what exactly benefit does that provide anyway?


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 19, 2005)

From Oriental Adventures:

The only game effect of the spirit type modifier is that spirit creatures are all affected by spells such as _commune with greater spirit, invisibility to spirits, _and _protection from spirits_.

Should we give this guy feats (and possibly other abilities) from OA?


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## Shade (Jul 19, 2005)

It would probably be best to follow the approach used by some of the monster books when dealing with non-core products.  That is, use core feats and subtypes, but add a section that says "If you are using Oriental Adventures, add the spirit subtype and replace X feat with Y feat".


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## Clifford (Jul 20, 2005)

Power gamer? me? oh boy. I am no power gamer i just think that a monster that kills gods should be freaken powerful eanough to kill a freaken god. So far It would be lucky if this guy could handle imhotep. Just kidding Imhotep is a wimp. But seriously he need to be tougher IMHO. As is abomination sounds Freaken GREAT!

Cliff


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## Riksdag Panda (Jul 21, 2005)

I think I'm gonna agree with Clifford, It was always in my views that a creature able to take down gods should be much more powerful than it currently is. I feel that essentialy any deity with the annihilating strike salient ability can knock out even the hecta-thingy-ma-bob relatively easily, perhaps there can be a counter to this?? 
Also do you guys have an idea as to what status of deity (i.e. lesser, over...) this creature can handle(or just stick with demigods, though he would be the demigod slayer then... )


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## Clifford (Jul 21, 2005)

maybe a line saying Ma Yuan is immune to the salent divine abilitys of gods DvR 5 or less (call it Dvr resistance of something.) sense it says he only geeked some wimpier gods anyway. This way he can be all pimp-tacular with the ass kicking on relitivly even terms with the creatures he has been known to kill.

Cliff

>=)


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## Shade (Jul 22, 2005)

List of many uniques by Challenge Rating for comparison purposes on future epic conversions:


CR 16 Yrsillar Lord of Nothing 
CR 18 Kerzit the Guardian  
CR 20 Juiblex, The Faceless Lord, lord of slimes and oozes. 
CR 20 Bel, Lord of the First. 
CR 20 Manath, the Horned Duke, The duke of the cervidals. 
CR 21 Kezef, The Chaos Hound The Ravager of Heavens. 
CR 21 Bazim-Gorag the Firebringer, Slaad lord. 
CR 22 Barachiel, the Messenger 
CR 22 Yeenoghu, Demon Prince of Gnolls. 
CR 22 Geryon, Deposed Lord of the Fifth, Lord of the Filth. 
CR 22 The Hag Countess, Lord of the Sixth. 
CR 22 Kharash, the Stalker   
CR 22 Ityak-Ortheel, the Elf Eater  . 
CR 23 Adimarchus, Prince of Madness. 
CR 23 Soneillon, Queen of Whispers. 
CR 24 Domiel, the Mercy-Bringer 
CR 24 Graz'zt, The Dark Prince. 
CR 24 Rhyxali, The Demon Princess of Shadow. 
CR 24 Belial/Fierna, Lord/Lady of the Fourth. 
CR 24 Vhara, Duchess of the Fields . 
CR 25 Erathaol, the Seer 
CR 25 Mammon, Lord of the Third. 
CR 25 Levistus, Lord of the Fifth. 
CR 26 Pistis Sophia
CR 26 Dendar, the Night Serpent 
CR 26 Dispater, Lord of the Second, the Iron Duke. 
CR 26 Gwynharwyf, the Whirling Fury
CR 26 Sathia, the Sky Duchess 
CR 27 Turaglas (Turagathshnee form). The Hunger Eternal, the Devourer, The Ebon Maw. 
CR 27 Malkizid, The Branded King. 
CR 28 Raziel, the Crusader 
CR 28 Eltab, Lord of the Hidden Layer. 
CR 28 Fraz-Urb'luu, Prince of Deception. 
CR 28 Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead. 
CR 28 Bharrai, the Great Bear 
CR 28 Vlaakith the Lich-Queen 
CR 29 Sealtiel, the Defender  
CR 29 Pazuzu, Prince of the Lower Aerial Kingdoms. 
CR 29 Baalzebul, Lord of the Seventh, the Lord of the Flies, the Fallen One, the Slug Archduke. 
CR 29 Mephistopheles, Lord of the Eighth. 
CR 29 Faerinaal, the Queen's Consort 
CR 30 Turaglas (True form). The Hunger Eternal, the Devourer, The Ebon Maw. 
CR 30 Demogorgon, Prince of Demons, Lord of All That Swims in Darkness. 
CR 30 Talisid, the Celestial Lion 
CR 31 Morwel, Queen of Stars . 
CR 32 Zaphkiel, the Watcher 
CR 32 Asmodeus, Lord of the Ninth. 
CR 34 Aumvor the Undying


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## BOZ (Jul 24, 2005)

Thank you Shade - that list will be very helpful in determining CR's for these epic critters.  I still feel, comparing to the other beings on this list, that CR 25 works well for him.



			
				GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> From Oriental Adventures:
> 
> The only game effect of the spirit type modifier is that spirit creatures are all affected by spells such as commune with greater spirit, invisibility to spirits, and protection from spirits.
> 
> Should we give this guy feats (and possibly other abilities) from OA?




sure then, Spirit subtype it is.  When we convert something that works well with OA, we usually give it a section like this:

USING SHIMNUS WITH ORIENTAL ADVENTURES 
If you are using Oriental Adventures rules in your campaign, consider adding the Spirit subtype.

USING KRAKENTUA WITH ORIENTAL ADVENTURES 
If you are using Oriental Adventures rules in your campaign, consider adding the Spirit subtype. Also, consider changing the krakentua?s damage reduction to 15/jade. A krakentua is likely to be wielding more than one weapon, preferring katana and wakizashi when available.



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Power gamer? me? oh boy. I am no power gamer i just think that a monster that kills gods should be freaken powerful eanough to kill a freaken god. So far It would be lucky if this guy could handle imhotep. Just kidding Imhotep is a wimp. But seriously he need to be tougher IMHO. As is abomination sounds Freaken GREAT!
> 
> Cliff
> [/qutoe]
> ...


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## Shade (Jul 25, 2005)

OK, going with CR 25, he's gonna need his HD toned down drastically.  As an outsider, he shouldn't have more than about 35 HD at this CR.  Otherwise, he'll never miss (due to BAB = HD) and his saves will be far out of balance for his CR.

Here are the HD and ability scores of comparable unique outsiders:

Erathaol (Large):  28 HD, Str 28, Dex 20, Con 30, Int 36, Wis 30, Cha 28
Mammon (Huge):  34 HD, Str 36, Dex 17, Con 35, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 27
Levistus (Medium):  33 HD, Str 26, Dex 26, Con 31, Int 27, Wis 34, Cha 29

Now, at 70 feet tall, this fella should be Colossal.  That means his Str should be about 16 higher and his Con about 8 higher than a comparable Huge critter.   Using Mammon as a baseline, that would give Ma Yuan Str 52, Dex 17, and Con 43.  Obviously, we can play with the numbers a bit.   Assuming 35 HD, he'd have the following modifiers:

Attack:  +57
Damage:  +21
Hit points:  35d8+560 (717)

That would leave him at 7 higher attack bonus than Mammon (without accounting for feats and magic items) and about 156 more hit points.  Considering that Ma Yuan lacks powerful spell-like abilities, that should about even out for the CR.


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## Clifford (Jul 25, 2005)

Boz i understand your viewpoint. But Ma Yuan was able to wach gods before and now he just isnt tough eanough. Sometimes when we convert thing we are to literal and the origonal spirit of the creature is gone. with 35 hd may as well make another tarrasque. Lemme se giant reptilian killing machine. Sounds like the tarrasque to me heck with the 35 HD its even gonna be wimpier tha the tarrasque. So far its sounds like a big dinosaur with 4 arms and a nifty stone triangle..

anyway i said my two cents.


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## BOZ (Jul 26, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> OK, going with CR 25, he's gonna need his HD toned down drastically. As an outsider, he shouldn't have more than about 35 HD at this CR. Otherwise, he'll never miss (due to BAB = HD) and his saves will be far out of balance for his CR.




do we want to decrease his HD from 45, or increase his CR from 25?  Higher than CR 25 and you're heading directly into the range of the more powerful archfiends and celestial paragons.  How do his original stats compare with the 1E archfiend stats in general?  I'll have to look that up when I get the chance.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Here are the HD and ability scores of comparable unique outsiders:
> 
> Erathaol (Large): 28 HD, Str 28, Dex 20, Con 30, Int 36, Wis 30, Cha 28
> Mammon (Huge): 34 HD, Str 36, Dex 17, Con 35, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 27
> ...




we can always play with his ability scores.  We were working with this:

Abilities: Str 45, Dex 18, Con 34, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 25

Let's stop and reconsider the CR for the moment (fine where it is, or should it go up or down) before reworking the HD.  As I said above, he should be compared to the archfiends as a baseline.  If he was less powerful than most of the the archfiends in 1E, he should be less powerful than them now.  if he could have killed most of them in 1E, his CR should be 30 or more.



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Boz i understand your viewpoint. But Ma Yuan was able to wach gods before and now he just isnt tough eanough. Sometimes when we convert thing we are to literal and the origonal spirit of the creature is gone. with 35 hd may as well make another tarrasque. Lemme se giant reptilian killing machine. Sounds like the tarrasque to me heck with the 35 HD its even gonna be wimpier tha the tarrasque. So far its sounds like a big dinosaur with 4 arms and a nifty stone triangle..
> 
> anyway i said my two cents.




honestly, I'm not trying to keep you from getting what you want, or argue with you, or hurt your feelings, or ruin your game, or even put you in a bad mood - i'm not the sort of fellow to want to do that, and I don't think that you think I am either.  

which gods do we think he was able to kill?  Thor?  Odin?  Look at those stats; I somehow doubt it.  Remember, back then even the demon lords were considered gods.  Could he have killed 1E Juiblex; he probably could have.  He probably could have killed titans like Atlas or Crius after a tough fight.  Certainly he was no match for greater gods, or lesser gods, and probably nothing more than the most meager of demigods.  If anything, his title may be more of a boast than a reality.

If it will make you happy, as I said before with this guy and with Cerberus, you can always toughen up the conversion that we make here - add HD, attacks, whatever, to make him as tough as you want.  The CC conversion does not determine in any way shape or form what version of this guy will be used in yours or anyone else's campaign.  If you're just completely unsatisfied with it and can't think of enough to fix it to your liking, then scrap it and do a conversion of your own and post it in the Homebrews forum.  I'm sure there are a lot of other fellows out there who like the power climb as much as I'm sure you do.

Here, bear with me.  As I said above to Shade, let's compare him to what the archfiends could do in 1E.  if he was mediocre compared to them, why should we now make him their far superior?  Like I said before, if you give the archfiends and celestial paragons DvR 1 (or more) in your home campaign, then this guy should have it too.  But the designers created those beings without a divine rank, and I'm going to do the same here.

Your analogy of the tarrasque is lacking something, by the way... the tarrasque lacks any sort of critical thinking power, where as this guy has it in spades.  The tarrasque will never be able to kill a god (unless it gets really lucky somehow) because even the weakest, stupidest god can outthink it and at least escape if it can't beat the monster.


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## Clifford (Jul 28, 2005)

well boz sense you put it that way.

Ma yuan has 300 hp as of the old stats.
I beleive (but could be wrong) that the top end arch fiend has somethiong like 180. sense monsters dident have ability scores for the most part back in 1e and anything in therange of these cuekers attack as 16+ hit dice monsters. Hit points are the best bench mark to sort of guage reletive power. a upper end demon lord from 1e has roughly 60% the hp of Ma Yuan. thus i fugure Ma Yuam should be roughly 1/3rd more powerful than a high end demon lord.

To anser your questions i think he sould be an even mach for a Dvr 3 or less god. With 20 outsider HD and 60 CLass Levels.

Cliff


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## Clifford (Jul 28, 2005)

err that should be 20 outsider hd and 40 class levels. for a grand total of 60.

Cliff
>;D


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## BOZ (Jul 30, 2005)

Clifford said:
			
		

> I beleive (but could be wrong) that the top end arch fiend has somethiong like 180.




most of them had less than 200.

i don't know that HP is the "best" way to determine relative power, but it certainly gives one a good idea of what to expect.  he does have a lot of hp, multiple attacks per round, IIRC a decent SR and AC, so he would be a challenge for the toughest of folks.

however, aside from the SR and AC, he has no particular defenses.  no immunity to mind affecting, no resistance to fire, electricity, cold, etc.  poison and disease can hurt him, i believe.  if you can exploit those areas, his ability to challenge you can drop significantly very quickly.

let's look at 1E demon lords then.  they all have high SR and AC as well, even if their hit points don't come close to ma yuan's impressive total.  they also have spells and other special abilities, many of which are not affected by his spell resistance.  and SR is not the same as invulnerability because you will succeed in surpassing it sometimes (or often).  if you can do enough fire and poison damage and then hit him with a mind-affecting spell or two, he'll by crying like a baby to his mama in no time.

so, i did a bit of comparison to the demon lords in the old MM and MM2 and made some educated guesses.  i think, after a tough fight, he could take out about half of them, and maybe the toughest one he could beat would be Dispater.  what about Orcus?  Asmodeus?  Demogorgon, Mephistopheles, Fraz-urb'luu?  i don't think so - they should be able to take him down unless he gets lucky.

Dispater is CR 26 now.  Orcus is 28, and the others i mentioned are at least that high.  so, based on that comparison, i could see him easily higher than CR 25.  i'd make him 26, possibly CR 27.

if you think he could beat those more powerful lords, please explain why.


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## Clifford (Aug 1, 2005)

I imagine they they intended him to get a ton of milage out of his Thinga-Ma-Jiggy and sense there were no guidelines as to what this thing could turn into he could conceivable turn it into a + 500 Machine-gun of arch fiend slaying. But thats just Quibbling on my part. I think Ma-Yuan should have some energy resistances and high SR. atleast. And a damn lot more than 35 HD. I looked at my old Deities and Demigods and ma yuan had IMHO bettrer stats than Cerby. So if we must make him a combat monster we should atleast make up for lack of special attacks with some wicked obscene Physicals. posibly some epic feats (Devistating Critical anyone?) anyway their is my two cents.

I realize my bitching is holding up this conversion so i will keep it to a minimum till next monster hehehe! anyway catch yas laters folks i have a monster book to finsh authoring.

CLiff
(=<


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## BOZ (Aug 2, 2005)

we don't love you any less Clifford!    you've actually helped me see a lot of things i might not have noticed, and at least meeting you halfway i think it's going to be better than it would have.  

and you're not holding me back any more than my own personal lack of time at the moment.


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## Shade (Aug 2, 2005)

Taking him to CR 27, about 40 HD would be reasonable.   Dendar the Night Serpent, from Champions of Ruin, is CR 26.  She has 54 HD and is Colossal.  Her spell-likes are far fewer than comparable archfiends, but she has nasty combat abilities.  Personally, I feel that she's a bit under-CR'ed, but it does open the door to Ma Yuan going a bit higher in the HD department.  Maybe we can try him at 50 HD and see where that goes?

At 40+ HD, he'd be entitled to 7 epic feats, so Devastating Critical is definitely possible.  We can give him Epic Toughness several times to really up his hp.


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

OK then, we'll bump him up to CR 27, and start with his HD at 50, going up as needed.  time to get this show on the road already!  

were we keeping his stats at: Str 45, Dex 18, Con 34, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 25?  see post 744.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

Dendar's got Str 48, Dex 23, Con 42, Int 23, Wis 26, Cha 24.  So Ma Yuan might warrant a Con boost, but everything else is on par.


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## Clifford (Aug 3, 2005)

Hmm i can live with 50 hit dice. 

How about the claw attacks do 4d6 damage.

Natural attacks Count as epic and maybe something else.

Um Sr: 39

Dr 20/Epic

Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity, Sonic resistance of 15 each.

I know it dosent have it in the description but i can see it haveing a regenerastion maybe 10?

Cliff
>=)


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## BOZ (Aug 3, 2005)

Con 40?



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Hmm i can live with 50 hit dice.
> 
> How about the claw attacks do 4d6 damage.
> 
> ...




i like all of that.  



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Acid, Cold, Fire, Electricity, Sonic resistance of 15 each.
> 
> I know it dosent have it in the description but i can see it haveing a regenerastion maybe 10?
> 
> ...




i'd say fast healing 10.  resistances, maybe 10 also, and maybe not so many of them (tradeoff could be that one is an immunity instead).


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

To summarize where we're at so far...

Ma Yuan (killer of the gods)
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 50d8+750 (975 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares), fly 60 ft (good?), swim 60 ft
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +4 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +50/+83
Attack: Claw +59 melee (4d6+17)
Full Attack: 4 claws +59 melee (4d6+17) and bite +54 melee (X+8) (depicted carrying a sword)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: damage reduction 20/epic, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 10, immunity/resistance to acid/cold/electricity/fire/sonic, spell resistance 39
Saves: Fort +42, Ref +31, Will +32
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 18, Con 40, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 25
Skills: (13 at 53 ranks)
Feats: 17 (10 can be epic)

Environment: (Any evil-aligned plane?)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 27
Treasure: X standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Ma Yuan is 70 feet tall, and weighs X tons.

COMBAT

Ma Yuan?s natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned, evil-aligned, and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Originally found in the first edition Deities and Demigods (1980, James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz).


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

1E Deiteis & Demigods said:
			
		

> TREASURE TYPE: A (X 5)




What did that equate to in 1E?



			
				1E Deiteis & Demigods said:
			
		

> This monster has 3 eyes in his tyrannosaurus-shaped head, and has 4 large humanoid arms. He has the strength of a storm giant, but rarely relies on this in battle. He also has a powerful magical device shaped in the form of a small triangular piece of stone that has the power to turn into any weapon the holder wishes, magical or otherwise. This monster's favorite tactic is to make a weapon from his stone that is double the power of the one being used against him. The creature is known to have killed at least 10 minor deities. It attacks as a 16+ hit dice monster, The existence of Ma Yuan prevents complacency among the gods.




For the triangular piece of stone, should we state that he usually makes it a weapon of a type that seems most effective (i.e. bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) based upon the deity's apparent resistances to one type or another?


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

We also discussed either making him divine rank 0 or being an abomination.  That would mean the following:

Abomination Traits
All abominations are born directly (or indirectly) from a god and some lesser creature (or idea), but none are favored, wanted, or loved. Still, they all share a tiny spark of deific energy, which grants them the qualities described in below. (Note: deity rules are used, abominations are rank 0 deities.) 

Immunities (Ex): Abominations are immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any form-altering attack. They are not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage. They are immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), and are immune to one of five energy types (specific to the abomination). 

Resistances (Ex): Abominations have fire resistance 20, cold resistance 20, and damage reduction of at least 10/epic (certain abominations have higher damage reduction). Abominations all have significant spell resistance. Abominations resist detection, and are all treated as if affected by a nondetection spell of a caster level equal to the abomination’s HD. 

Special Qualities (Ex): All abominations have the spell-like ability to use true seeing at will. Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage, and they have maximum hit points per Hit Die. Abominations have the blindsight extraordinary ability to a range of 500 feet. Abominations can choose both nonepic and epic feats as part of their feat selection. 

Telepathy (Su): Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1,000 feet that has a language. 

Summon Creature (Sp): Abominations can summon creatures associated either with the portfolio of their godly progenitor or with their imprisonment. Summoned creatures serve the abomination without question. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour, or sooner if slain. See specific abomination entries for additional details on summoning. 

Fast Healing and Regeneration: Most abominations have some measure of fast healing and regeneration, ranging from 5 to 55 for both abilities. Usually, higher HD abominations have higher values for fast healing and regeneration, though this not always the case. If an abomination has regeneration, it is usually subject to normal damage from at least two sources, one of which is the antithesis for their subtype, and the other of which is somehow tied to some unique feature of the abomination. 

Natural Armor: All abominations have some degree of natural armor bonus ranging from +10 to +100. Usually, higher HD abominations have higher natural armor bonuses, but this is not always the case. 

Spell-Like Abilities: All abominations have access to a variety of spells in the form of spell-like abilities, which they can use as 20th-or higher-level casters, depending on the abomination. No rule governs how many or how few spell-like abilities an abomination may claim. 

Unique Abilities: All abominations have at least one or more unique abilities tied to their godly parent’s portfolio, or to the manner of their incarceration. 

Spell Resistance: As a general rule of thumb, abominations have spell resistance equal to their CR +12.

Abominations speak Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, and often a language associated with their imprisonment.

---------------------------------------- OR ---------------------------------------

Hit Points: Deities receive maximum hit points for each Hit Die.

Speed: Deities can move much more quickly than mortals. A deity’s base land speed depends on its form (biped or quadruped) and its size, as shown on the following table. Some deities are exceptions, with speeds faster or slower than the norm.

Size Biped* Quadruped* 
Colossal 140 ft. 180 ft. 
*Or any form with two or fewer legs.     
**Or any form with three or more legs.     

Note: Use the Biped column for burrow and swim speeds for all deities regardless of form. Use half the value in the Biped column for climb speeds for all deities. Use twice the value in the Quadruped column for fly speeds for all deities capable of flying.

Bypassing Damage Reduction: As outsiders with alignment subtypes, the natural attacks of deities, as well as any weapons they wield, are considered aligned the same as the deity for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.

Immunities: Deities have the following immunities. Individual deities may have more immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank.

Transmutation: A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself.

Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

Mind-Affecting Effects: A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).

Damage Reduction: A deity has damage reduction as shown below

Divine Rank  Damage Reduction 
Quasi-deity (0) 10/epic 

If the deity also has damage reduction from another source this damage reduction does not stack with the damage reduction granted by divine ranks. Instead, the deity gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation. Whenever a deity has a second kind of damage reduction that might apply to an attack, that damage reduction is listed in parentheses after the damage reduction entry in the deity’s statistics block.

Resistances: All deities have at least the following resistances.  Individual deities may have additional resistances.

Energy Resistance: A deity has fire resistance of 5 + its divine rank.

Spell Resistance: A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.

Immortality: All deities (even those of rank 0) are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to death from massive damage.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

Ma Yuan appears to have been created for the 1E Deities & Demigods.  I searched Google and found nothing indicating a being of that name in Chinese mythology.  I also found no "killer of the gods" in this mythology.

Weird.  So I guess all we're left with is that brief paragraph from D&DG and our imaginations.


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 3, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> What did that equate to in 1E?
> 
> 25% 5,000-30,000 cp; 30% 5,000-30,000 sp; 35% 5,000-30,000 ep; 40% 5,000-50,000 gp; 25% 500-2,000 pp; 60% 20-200 gems; 50% 15-150 pieces of jewelry; 30% 15 magic items.


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## Shade (Aug 3, 2005)

Thanks!

So that looks like about standard for a CR 27 encounter, doesn't it?


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## Clifford (Aug 4, 2005)

Hmm i either way DvrO or Abomination it gets Spell like abiklitys. I vote abomination myself as it seems to hate gods (Dady issues maybe eh?). to keep it with the rules we can give it like one spell like ability at will (there are no Guidelines as to how many spells it can call.) like Discern location or something. Maybe the Stone thingy isnt a magic item so much as its Summoning ability like 10/day By focusing on its stone thingy it can call any weapon of upto say (this is just a number i am throwing out.) +20 bonus. This weapon remains untill Ma-Yuan summons another weapon.

6d6 sounds good for his bite. sense he has a t-rex head i just staged up the damage two spaces for a t rex. with this in mind he might have a swollow whole ability.

also with its 3 eyes Perhapse a bonus to spot checks?

keeping suit with the SRD a colossal abomination dose 8d6 withs its claws and 16d6 with a bite. though none of the abiminations that are actualy listed in the srd use these values so this dosent seem like such a big deal. not to mention 71 HD.


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## BOZ (Aug 4, 2005)

i don't favor sticking anything into the abomination set of rules, but i wouldn't mind modelling him after what they have set out.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't favor sticking anything into the abomination set of rules, but i wouldn't mind modelling him after what they have set out.




Are you suggesting giving him similar resistances and immunities, but not using the abomination subtype?   That's fine by me, since we don't really have any indication that he was the child of a god.

Another advantage to this is that we can leave off spell-like abilities, which don't really fit him and could affect his CR.

I've given more thought to his "triangle thingee", and think it should have the following powers:


It should be a major artifact so it cannot simply be destroyed at a deity's whim
Can take the shape of any simple or martial weapon, sized for a Colossal creature
Ignores any divine bonus to AC (as all deities over DR 0 have)
Treated as epic (if its enhancement bonus isn't already +6 or higher) for purposes of overcoming damage reduction
Is treated as a bane or dread weapon vs. deities
If wielded by a creature of divine rank 1 or higher, that creature loses all benefits associated with its divine rank until the weapon is no longer wielded (this keeps deities from gunning for him to steal it for their own ends)


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## Clifford (Aug 4, 2005)

i think it should have some protean abilities as it seemed that it could become numerous types of magical weapons.

Cliff


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## BOZ (Aug 5, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Are you suggesting giving him similar resistances and immunities, but not using the abomination subtype?   That's fine by me, since we don't really have any indication that he was the child of a god.




bingo.  i'll post some more thoughts to this thread tomorrow or over the weekend.


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## Clifford (Aug 9, 2005)

so boz when are you gonna post those thoughts?

hehe

Cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

let's lay off his artifact for a little bit so we can focus on his personal abilities a bit more.  



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> 6d6 sounds good for his bite. sense he has a t-rex head i just staged up the damage two spaces for a t rex. with this in mind he might have a swollow whole ability.
> 
> also with its 3 eyes Perhapse a bonus to spot checks?




that all sounds good.    a bonus to Spot, Search, and Listen maybe?


----------



## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

Clifford said:
			
		

> so boz when are you gonna post those thoughts?
> 
> hehe
> 
> ...




LOL  is right now good enough?


----------



## BOZ (Aug 9, 2005)

> Immunities (Ex): Abominations are immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any form-altering attack. They are not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage. They are immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), and are immune to one of five energy types (specific to the abomination).




yeah... that all sounds fine to me.  



> Resistances (Ex): Abominations have fire resistance 20, cold resistance 20, and damage reduction of at least 10/epic (certain abominations have higher damage reduction). Abominations all have significant spell resistance. Abominations resist detection, and are all treated as if affected by a nondetection spell of a caster level equal to the abomination’s HD.




OK.



> Special Qualities (Ex): All abominations have the spell-like ability to use true seeing at will. Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage, and they have maximum hit points per Hit Die. Abominations have the blindsight extraordinary ability to a range of 500 feet. Abominations can choose both nonepic and epic feats as part of their feat selection.




I guess those are fine.



> Telepathy (Su): Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1,000 feet that has a language.




Sure.  



> Summon Creature (Sp): Abominations can summon creatures associated either with the portfolio of their godly progenitor or with their imprisonment. Summoned creatures serve the abomination without question. Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour, or sooner if slain. See specific abomination entries for additional details on summoning.




Nope.



> Fast Healing and Regeneration: Most abominations have some measure of fast healing and regeneration, ranging from 5 to 55 for both abilities. Usually, higher HD abominations have higher values for fast healing and regeneration, though this not always the case. If an abomination has regeneration, it is usually subject to normal damage from at least two sources, one of which is the antithesis for their subtype, and the other of which is somehow tied to some unique feature of the abomination.




We got fast healing already, yep.  



> Natural Armor: All abominations have some degree of natural armor bonus ranging from +10 to +100. Usually, higher HD abominations have higher natural armor bonuses, but this is not always the case.




Yep!



> Spell-Like Abilities: All abominations have access to a variety of spells in the form of spell-like abilities, which they can use as 20th-or higher-level casters, depending on the abomination. No rule governs how many or how few spell-like abilities an abomination may claim.




I don't think he needs them.



> Unique Abilities: All abominations have at least one or more unique abilities tied to their godly parent’s portfolio, or to the manner of their incarceration.




I don't think this applies...



> Spell Resistance: As a general rule of thumb, abominations have spell resistance equal to their CR +12.




already done!  



> Abominations speak Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, and often a language associated with their imprisonment.




sure.



> ---------------------------------------- OR ---------------------------------------
> 
> Hit Points: Deities receive maximum hit points for each Hit Die.




no.



> Speed: Deities can move much more quickly than mortals. A deity’s base land speed depends on its form (biped or quadruped) and its size, as shown on the following table. Some deities are exceptions, with speeds faster or slower than the norm.
> 
> Size Biped* Quadruped*
> Colossal 140 ft. 180 ft.
> ...




maybe.



> Bypassing Damage Reduction: As outsiders with alignment subtypes, the natural attacks of deities, as well as any weapons they wield, are considered aligned the same as the deity for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction.




got that covered already.  



> Immunities: Deities have the following immunities. Individual deities may have more immunities. Unless otherwise indicated, these immunities do not apply if the attacker is a deity of equal or higher rank.
> 
> Transmutation: A deity is immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any other attack that alters its form. Any shape-altering powers the deity might have work normally on itself.




isn't that covered above?



> Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.




maybe.



> Mind-Affecting Effects: A deity is immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).




isn't that covered above as well?



> Damage Reduction: A deity has damage reduction as shown below
> 
> Divine Rank Damage Reduction
> Quasi-deity (0) 10/epic
> ...




already there.  



> Resistances: All deities have at least the following resistances. Individual deities may have additional resistances.
> 
> Energy Resistance: A deity has fire resistance of 5 + its divine rank.




at least!  



> Spell Resistance: A deity has spell resistance of 32 + its divine rank.




at least!  



> Immortality: All deities (even those of rank 0) are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to death from massive damage.




sure, I guess so.


----------



## Clifford (Aug 13, 2005)

ok i think Boz's "ideas" on these abilitys seem good. Maybe we can get this critter togeather now?

cliff


----------



## BOZ (Aug 13, 2005)

ok, they were more comments than ideas.     heh, i am off work next week so i'm planning on finishing up these conversions that i've left hanging for so long!  not just at this moment though...


----------



## BOZ (Aug 22, 2005)

OK, so I lied?  What's new?    gencon and planning for gencon kept me busy enough.  anyone have any comments on my comments above?


----------



## Clifford (Aug 23, 2005)

I am only momenting on the maybe stuff.

I think he should be able to keep up with gods. Soooo maybe a base movement rate of 180 sounds good. I Imagine long strides for this dude.

All resistances of 20 ish sounds good.

I think this is a good choice for some immunities.
Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Ability Damage: A deity is not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.


----------



## Shade (Aug 24, 2005)

Man, I thought this guy would be easy!    

Attempting to summarize what we've decided to give him:


damage reduction 20/epic
darkvision 60 ft
blindsight to a range of 500 feet. 
Telepathy 1,000 feet.
true seeing at will. 
fast healing 10
spell resistance 39
immunity to one of five energy types (acid/cold/electricity/fire/sonic), resistance 20 to the rest
immune to polymorphing, petrification, or any form-altering attack. not subject to energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage. immune to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)
not subject to death from massive damage
Immortality: All deities (even those of rank 0) are naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. Deities do not age, and they do not need to eat, sleep, or breathe. The only way for a deity to die is through special circumstances, usually by being slain in magical or physical combat. Deities of rank 1 or higher are not subject to death from massive damage. 
Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal, etc.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 24, 2005)

i guess that's not too much, if we can fit all of it into his HD and CR.


----------



## Clifford (Aug 25, 2005)

Those abilities loog about right.

I think its time to tackel the stone thingy!

Cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Aug 25, 2005)

i'll write up a new stat block for him, and post it, and when we've got that good to go we can work on his artifact (i don't think we should jump the gun and work on an item when the character has work yet to do).


----------



## Clifford (Sep 5, 2005)

hey boz where is that statblock?

cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Sep 6, 2005)

sooner or later.    i'd be lying to you if i said it was going to be sooner rather than later...


----------



## BOZ (Sep 21, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> immunity to one of five energy types (acid/cold/electricity/fire/sonic), resistance 20 to the rest




any opinions on this?

and here is the long-ago promised updated stat block, as much as i could throw together in a few minutes:

Ma Yuan ("killer of the gods")
Colossal Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 50d8+750 (975 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares), fly 60 ft (good?), swim 60 ft
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +4 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +50/+83
Attack: Claw +59 melee (4d6+17)
Full Attack: 4 claws +59 melee (4d6+17) and bite +54 melee (6d6+8) (depicted carrying a sword)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: blindsight 500 ft?, damage reduction 20/epic, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 10, immortal, (immunity/resistance to acid/cold/electricity/fire/sonic), spell resistance 39, telepathy 1000 ft
Saves: Fort +42, Ref +31, Will +32
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 18, Con 40, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 25
Skills: (13 at 53 ranks)
Feats: 17 (10 can be epic)

Environment: (Any evil-aligned plane?)
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 27
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

Ma Yuan is 70 feet tall, and weighs X tons.

Ma Yuan speaks Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal

COMBAT

Ma Yuan's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned, evil-aligned, and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Immortal (Ex): Ma Yuan is naturally immortal and cannot die from natural causes. He does not age, and does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe.  Ma Yuan is immune to to mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects), polymorphing, petrification, or any form-altering attack.  Ma Yuan is not subject to death from massive damage, energy drain, ability drain, or ability damage.

True Seeing (at will)

Originally found in the first edition Deities and Demigods (1980, James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz).


----------



## Clifford (Sep 22, 2005)

Alrighty I would say Um fire immunity. 20 resistance to all the rest. 
Weight should be about the same as an elder titan. Them being colossal sized as well. Though i cant remembrer how much they weigh.

Anyway flava text. Probably need spell checking i think.

_Before you stands a monsterous reptilian horror. Towering atleast 70 feet above your heads. this triclopian tyranosaur-like being notices you Diefic murder pools in its savage visage its only clothing is a molevolent stone charm hanging from its neck. Its four claws bear dowm on you menacingly._


----------



## BOZ (Sep 22, 2005)

Clifford said:
			
		

> Weight should be about the same as an elder titan. Them being colossal sized as well. Though i cant remembrer how much they weigh.




that's a good idea.  do you think it's listed at all?


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that's a good idea.  do you think it's listed at all?




Indeed.



			
				Epic-Level Handbook said:
			
		

> ...elder titans stand 75 feet tall or more, weighing close to 400,000 pounds.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

how is the stat block above then?  are we gonig with fire immunity and the rest resistance 20?


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2005)

Add true seeing to the SQ line and I think it is coming along nicely.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 23, 2005)

and Shade you agree with the fire immunity and resistances of 20 for the rest?

how much natural armor should we give him, compared to other nearly-divine beings?


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and Shade you agree with the fire immunity and resistances of 20 for the rest?
> 
> how much natural armor should we give him, compared to other nearly-divine beings?




Yes to the resistances and immunity.

For CR 27, his AC should be around 42-50.  With -8 size, +4 Dex, that leaves him with a natural armor score of 36-44, assuming we don't give him any deflection/armor/insight/etc. bonuses from his triangle-thingee or other gear.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

let's dream big and give him that natural armor of +44.  if we do give him any deflection or insight bonuses, we can always lower the natural armor accordingly.


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2005)

Sounds good!


----------



## BOZ (Sep 26, 2005)

skills & feats?


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2005)

Suggested Skills (13 at 53):  Climb 30, Gather Information 51, Intimidate 53, Jump 23, Knowledge (history) 25, Knowledge (religion) 53, Knowledge (the planes) 53, Listen 53, Search 53, Sense Motive 53, Spot 53, Survival 53, Swim 30, Tumble 53, use Magic Device 53

Suggested Feats (17, 10 can be epic):  Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Epic Prowess (x2), Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Mobility, Multiattack, Penetrate Damage Reduction (cold iron, silver), Power Attack, Spring Attack, Track, Whirlwind Attack

Note the lack of Improved Critical-like feats--since deities are immune to crits, I figured he wouldn't need 'em.


----------



## Clifford (Sep 27, 2005)

I am disturbed by the lack of devistateing critical on this feat list. Also i was thinming sense he can turn his thingy into any weapon should we maybe give hims some sort of super weapon profishency power or perhapse some super threat range power like a nimblewrite. Those Agile construct thingies from MM2 i beleive.

Cliff
>=)


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2005)

Devastating Critical does him little good...since all gods are immune to crititcals, and he is mainly trying to kill gods, it is a bit of a pointless feat chain.

Same goes for an augmented critical like ability.  I'm assuming we'll make his triangle thingee a powerful epic weapon, so that should cover the "super weapon proficiency" power.  Also, I gave him Epic Prowess (x2) to grant the equivalent of Weapon Focus (twice) to all his attacks.


----------



## Mortis (Sep 27, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Devastating Critical does him little good...since all gods are immune to crititcals, and he is mainly trying to kill gods, it is a bit of a pointless feat chain.



Now, if we give him a Special Ability that allows him to crit gods...   

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Sep 28, 2005)

now you're talking crazy Mortis.  

i'm fine with shade's list if you all are.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 28, 2005)

since no one appears to have any issues with skill ranks, here are the skills with all the mods applied:
Skills: Climb +47, Gather Information +58, Intimidate +60, Jump +40, Knowledge (history) +30, Knowledge (religion) +58, Knowledge (the planes) +58, Listen +58, Search +58, Sense Motive +58, Spot +58, Survival +58, Swim +55, Tumble +57, Use Magic Device +60


----------



## Clifford (Sep 29, 2005)

Yeah but now he cant even crit a human verry well. Also i was wondering about the super weapon profishencies because concevably the triangle thingy can turn into any weapon. even one ma-yuan might never have seen before. I am worried about non profishency penalties and what not.

CLiff
>=)

P.s. What do ya think of my avatar? Finaly got one.


----------



## Mortis (Sep 29, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm fine with shade's list if you all are.



How about giving him a 'Smite Deity' Special Attack and replacing on the Epic Prowess feats with Great Smiting - or because it stacks replace both Epic Prowess feats with Great Smiting ?

Or (again replacing Epic Prowess) Improved Initiative and Dire Charge?

I tend to view the Epic Prowess feat as a bit of waste - as if you couldn't tell 

Other than that, yes, Shade's list is fine.

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2005)

Clifford said:
			
		

> Yeah but now he cant even crit a human verry well. Also i was wondering about the super weapon profishencies because concevably the triangle thingy can turn into any weapon. even one ma-yuan might never have seen before. I am worried about non profishency penalties and what not.




He doesn't really need to crit a human though, does he?   As the "killer of the gods", I figure he simply ignores any non-deity unless they get in his way, and he can pretty easily dispatch most of 'em without needing a critical hit.

I definitely agree that when we writeup the triangle, we'll state that he is treated as having proficiency in the weapon, regardless of its source.  I'd imagine it could take the form of any simple, martial, or exotic weapon...no limits.   I think it would be cool if he tended to have it take the shape of the deity's favored weapon, so as he could kill them with their own weapon of choice.    



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> P.s. What do ya think of my avatar? Finaly got one.




Nice.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> How about giving him a 'Smite Deity' Special Attack and replacing on the Epic Prowess feats with Great Smiting - or because it stacks replace both Epic Prowess feats with Great Smiting ?
> 
> Or (again replacing Epic Prowess) Improved Initiative and Dire Charge?
> 
> I tend to view the Epic Prowess feat as a bit of waste - as if you couldn't tell




Smite Deity is a brilliant idea!  As for Epic Prowess, I could care less whether he keeps it or not.  I suggested it only because Weapon Focus wouldn't be possible with his weapon-that-can-be-any-weapon, and this would grant him a similar benefit.  

Dire Charge, sadly, is a bit of a sucky feat, since it only works on the first round of combat.    

Improved Initiative and/or Superior Init would be just fine.


----------



## BOZ (Sep 29, 2005)

go ahead and write up the Smite Diety power, since it makes sense that he would have at least one special power that affects them.    have the stipulation that it affects only beings with DvR 1 or higher.

fix up the feat least however you like, and that will be fine.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2005)

How's this?

Smite Divinity (Su): Once (?) per day, Ma Yuan can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to his HD (50) against a foe with a divine rank of 1 or higher.

We can probably just state "an extra 50 points of damage" since his HD won't change.


----------



## Mortis (Sep 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Smite Divinity (Su): Once (?) per day, Ma Yuan can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to his HD (50) against a foe with a divine rank of 1 or higher.



Nice, I would be more generous and make it 3 times per day.



> We can probably just state "an extra 50 points of damage" since his HD won't change.



I agree, so...

Smite Divinity (Su): Once (?) per day, Ma Yuan can make a normal melee attack to deal an extra 50 points of damage against a foe with a divine rank of 1 or higher.

So what do think replace one Epic Prowess with Great Smiting?

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Sep 30, 2005)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Nice, I would be more generous and make it 3 times per day.




That's fine by me.  The guy does exist solely to kill gods, after all.    




			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I agree, so...
> 
> Smite Divinity (Su): Once (?) per day, Ma Yuan can make a normal melee attack to deal an extra 50 points of damage against a foe with a divine rank of 1 or higher.




Yep.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> So what do think replace one Epic Prowess with Great Smiting?




That works for me.  Replace 'em both if you want.  The smite is probably more beneficial since his attack modifier already rocks.


----------



## Clifford (Sep 30, 2005)

Ok why cant he slight Dr 0 dudes again? That counts as Divine rank too. 

Cliff


----------



## BOZ (Sep 30, 2005)

quite right.  i will fix that.

so this is the feat list then?

Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Epic Prowess, Great Cleave, Great Smiting, Improved Bull Rush, Mobility, Multiattack, Penetrate Damage Reduction (cold iron), Penetrate Damage Reduction (silver), Power Attack, Spring Attack, Track, Whirlwind Attack


----------



## Shade (Sep 30, 2005)

That list works for me.  With the addition of Great Smiting, I recommend the following revision:

Smite Divinity (Su): Three times per day, Ma Yuan can make a normal melee attack to deal an extra 100 points of damage against a foe with a divine rank of 0 or higher.  (This includes 50 points for his Hit Dice, doubled by the Great Smiting epic feat.)


----------



## Clifford (Oct 3, 2005)

Heh how he can kill Imhotep.

>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 3, 2005)

no one lives forever!


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

Time to tackle the triangle?

"He also has a powerful magical device shaped in the form of a small triangular piece of stone that has the power to turn into any weapon the holder wishes, magical or otherwise. This monster's favorite tactic is to make a weapon from his stone that is double the power of the one being used against him."

Here's an initial attempt at it...

"Stone Triad of the God-Killer" (Major Artifact):  Ma Yuan possesses a small, triangular piece of stone that possesses great power.  It is rumored to contain the essences of the gods he has slain.  Once per round, as a free action, Ma Yuan can change the stone into any form of weapon (simple, martial, or exotic).  Ma Yuan is always treated as proficient in the weapon type chosen, and the weapon is always sized for a Colossal creature. 

Other things to consider:


Perhaps allow him to make the weapon of any material (thus negating the need for the Penetrate Damage Reduction epic feats)?
Allow him to grant the weapon up to a +7 bonus, allocating it as either enhancement bonus or from a specific list of special abilities (such as shock, icy burst, etc.)
Always treat it as bane against creatures with a divine rank?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

Here are some things that you guys have said previously:



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> His weird Triangle thingy is prolly an artifact. May is jugjest the folowing powers for it. My idea dosent fit the descritpion but it dose fit the spirit of the item and the monster. By the old description the creature could make a +1000 spear or something freakish like that.
> 
> Talisman of Ma Yuan
> This small triangular peice of stone has many potent and varries powers. It can Chang into any weapon. This weapon is of the same side at the weilder of Ma Yuans Talisman for single handed weapons and one size catagory larger for 2 handed weapons.
> ...






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For the triangular piece of stone, should we state that he usually makes it a weapon of a type that seems most effective (i.e. bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing) based upon the deity's apparent resistances to one type or another?






			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Maybe the Stone thingy isnt a magic item so much as its Summoning ability like 10/day By focusing on its stone thingy it can call any weapon of upto say (this is just a number i am throwing out.) +20 bonus. This weapon remains untill Ma-Yuan summons another weapon.







			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I've given more thought to his "triangle thingee", and think it should have the following powers:
> •	It should be a major artifact so it cannot simply be destroyed at a deity's whim
> •	Can take the shape of any simple or martial weapon, sized for a Colossal creature
> •	Ignores any divine bonus to AC (as all deities over DR 0 have)
> ...





			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> i think it should have some protean abilities as it seemed that it could become numerous types of magical weapons.




I agree that Ma Yuan should be able to form it into any weapon that would be the equivalent of a +7 enhancement (as shown in the table in the DMG).  And I definitely agree with making it any material he chooses.  He already defeats DR against evil and epic just by his own virtue.

He could always give it the bane (outsider) quality, but if we limit the total bonus to +7 (instead of jacking it all the way up to +10) I could see on top of that it being always an outsider (all types) bane.


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I agree that Ma Yuan should be able to form it into any weapon that would be the equivalent of a +7 enhancement (as shown in the table in the DMG).  And I definitely agree with making it any material he chooses.  He already defeats DR against evil and epic just by his own virtue.
> 
> He could always give it the bane (outsider) quality, but if we limit the total bonus to +7 (instead of jacking it all the way up to +10) I could see on top of that it being always an outsider (all types) bane.




Oh, and to explain why I limited it to +7...compared to all other uniques within 1 CR of Ma's (CR 27), +7 is about the limit.  We don't want him to eclipse the top echelon archfiends.

I like the always outsider bane suggestion.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 4, 2005)

how about a outsider dread?

cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

we could, but then we'd definitely have to lower that +7 mark.


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

Yeah, since dread is already a +7 modifier.   

How about it is always outsider bane with a flat enhancement bonus, and he can treat it as outsider dread x/day?  We could then leave off the "floating +7" to spend on other abilities.

Alternatively, we could just leave it as outsider bane, but add the "crit 'em to dust" power of the dread property (but not the greater enhancement bonus and damage).


----------



## Clifford (Oct 5, 2005)

alrighty dosent seem epic eanough but sounds like it will work. on that not though is a diety is immune to crits the destruction thing will never come up i was thinking of the greater damage personaly. But anyway. Seems like the triangle is comeing along niceley.

[=)
Cliff


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2005)

Ahh, but the beautiful thing about the dread power which I'm suggesting we use...

"...and if it scores a successful critical hit against the foe, that creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 27) or be destroyed instantly and turned to dust. *(This even affects creatures immune to critical hits or death magic).*"


----------



## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

i... don't like the idea of a god having to make a single saving throw or die.  gods can't even do that to each other, can they?


----------



## Shade (Oct 5, 2005)

No, they can't.  That probably is too powerful.

How about borrowing from the Irresistible Blows salient divine ability?

Benefit: When the deity makes a melee attack with the chosen weapon against a creature, resolve the attack as a melee touch attack (the weapon blow ignores armor and natural armor bonuses). If the weapon hits, the creature struck must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the deity’s Constitution modifier + the deity’s divine rank) or be stunned for 1d10 rounds.
The deity’s attacks with the chosen weapons are considered to be adamantine for purposes of bypassing damage reduction and hardness.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 5, 2005)

that would work.  dieties may be immune to stunning, but we could undoubtedly work something out.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2005)

Is this guy ready for a Homebrews summary?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2005)

soon.  first of all, how does this look?

Stone Talisman of the God-Killer (Major Artifact): Ma Yuan possesses a small, triangular piece of stone that possesses great power. It is rumored to contain the essences of gods he has slain. Once per round, as a free action, Ma Yuan can change the stone into any form of weapon (simple, martial, or exotic) made of any material, as a standard action. Ma Yuan is always treated as proficient in the weapon type chosen, and the weapon is always sized for a Colossal creature. Ma Yuan may return the weapon to its talisman form as a free action.

Ma Yuan may assign the weapon an enhancement bonus and special abilities as he wishes.  Ma Yuan's weapon cannot have a modified bonus higher than +7 (see Dungeon Master's Guide p. 221-222).  Additionally, the weapon always performs as if it had the bane quality against a foe with a divine rank of 0 or higher.

re: triad, "i do not think this word means what you think it means."


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> soon.  first of all, how does this look?




It looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> re: triad, "i do not think this word means what you think it means."




Stone Talisman sounds better anyway.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2005)

ok, you now have your Homebrews posting.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2005)

Sweet.    

How does he fly?   Does he have wings, or should we give him magical flight like beholders?

Environment:  Either the Abyss or Pandemonium.  Unless we want to make him currently imprisoned on Carceri.  

Borrowing from the glabrezu:

True Seeing (Su): Ma yaun continuously use _true seeing _ as the spell (caster level 14th).


----------



## BOZ (Oct 6, 2005)

nope, no wings.  probably that sort of supernatural "propulsion by force of will" sort of flight that some powerful wingless beings have - like superman.  

could we just go with any evil-aligned plane?  i kinda like that.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> nope, no wings.  probably that sort of supernatural "propulsion by force of will" sort of flight that some powerful wingless beings have - like superman.




...or Kal-el Cage.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> could we just go with any evil-aligned plane?  i kinda like that.




That's fine.  All nice and SRD-like.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 7, 2005)

ok so who is next?


lets do some arch fiends those are always fun.


How about lilith?

cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

well... between the time i started this thread and now, it looks like all the archfiends are just about spoken for.

the demon lords will almost certainly all be written up in Dragon magazine's Demonomicon articles (though we are planning on submitting some proposals there)...

the devil lords are in consideration for being placed in a subsequent volume of the Dragon (magazine) Compenium (not volume 1, but perhaps another later volume)...

the yugoloth lords are not planned to be in anything as of yet (but we have submitted a proposal to Dragon magazine for them as well)...

so that cuts about 75% of the creatures listed on the first page of this thread.  

THOUGH if we do get any of those Dragon proposals accepted, you know we will be coming to these forums for mucho input.  

plus, we're close but not quite done with the current guy...


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

good maneuverability for flight speed?

blindsight - 500 feet seems like an awfully big range to me...

caster level for true seeing?


i'm writing up his flavor text right now, will post him tomorrow.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> good maneuverability for flight speed?




That works.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> blindsight - 500 feet seems like an awfully big range to me...




That's what all the abominations have, which he is on par with.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> caster level for true seeing?




A balor is CL 20th, so I'd go at least that high.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm writing up his flavor text right now, will post him tomorrow.




Cool!

Add to Attack line: ...or Stone Talisman of the God-Killer (as +5 flaming shock greatsword) +65 melee (8d6+30 plus 1d6 fire and 1d6 electricity/19-20) or  Stone Talisman of the God-Killer (as +5 flaming shock longbow) +51 ranged (6d6+5 plus 1d6 fire and 1d6 electricity/x3)  

Add to Full Attack line: ...or Stone Talisman of the God-Killer (as +5 flaming shock greatsword) +65/+60/+55/+50 melee (8d6+30 plus 1d6 fire and 1d6 electricity/19-20) or  Stone Talisman of the God-Killer (as +5 flaming shock longbow) +51/+46/+41/+36 ranged (6d6+5 plus 1d6 fire and 1d6 electricity/x3)

This begs several questions:

1.)  Should we state that the Stone Talisman creates any necessary ammunition for ranged weaons (I'd say yes)?

2.)  Should Ma Yuan be able to form masterwork/mighty versions of weapons (such as a bow allowing his full Str bonus)?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

500 just seems like a high number for blindsight.

not sure that i want to put all that info in the attack lines... people might just get lazy and use that all the time or something.  

come to think of it, i'm not sure whether or not the talisman should become a ranged weapon.  if it can, i'd say yes it would create ammunition and be mighty, and regardless i'd say that masterwork should be assumed rather than stated (if he can make a +1 sword, why settle for a mere masterwork sword?)


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 500 just seems like a high number for blindsight.




Yeah, but how often will it come into play?  Most combats occur within 30 feet, anyway, and with his continous true seeing, etc, he's gonna spot inviso foes with no problem.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure that i want to put all that info in the attack lines... people might just get lazy and use that all the time or something.




I'm fine with leaving it off, but you know me, I like to follow the current formats and be thorough.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> come to think of it, i'm not sure whether or not the talisman should become a ranged weapon.  if it can, i'd say yes it would create ammunition and be mighty, and regardless i'd say that masterwork should be assumed rather than stated (if he can make a +1 sword, why settle for a mere masterwork sword?)




I didn't see anything in his original writeup that indicated he only fought melee.  Those deities are tricksy, quicksy ones, they are.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

true, in fact, it says "He has the strength of a storm giant, but rarely relies on this in battle."  so, in the interests of being smart, sometimes ranged weapons are a good idea.    i'll allow it, if just to speed things along.  posting an update in homebrews in a moment...


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

BTW, "duh" on the masterwork.  I must've been tired when I posted that.    

Should we add the follwoing to the artifact, replacing the Penetrate Damage Reduction feats or just stick with 'em?  "Ma Yuan may form the weapon of any special material (such as adamantine, cold iron, or silver) in order to defeat an opponent's damage reduction."

Change Treasure line to "Standard plus _Stone Talisman of the God-Killer_".



> Ma Yuan is very powerful, but he prefers to rely on his powerful mind rather than just his physical might. His magical trinket allows him to have practically any weapon he desires, and love to change the stone charm into a weapon more powerful than that of his opponent.




I'd rewrite this as:  Ma Yuan is very powerful, but he prefers to rely on his powerful mind rather than just his physical might. His magical talisman allows him to form practically any weapon he desires, and he loves to change the stone charm into a deity's favored weapon to humiliate his opponent.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

added the lines you suggested.  are we fine with the languages he has?

yes, replace the feats.  his weapon gives him those capabilities.  if he fights something with DR using his claw attacks, he can always switch his talisman to a weapon that works.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

Yeah, I think those languages work as they cover those spoken by almost alll outsiders.

Since that frees up two feats, we have several options.


Replace both with Epic Prowess, adding +2 to all his attacks.
Replace both with Great Smiting, adding another 100 points of damage to his smite divinity ability.
Replace 'em with Improved Init and Dire Charge.
Replace 'em with Improved Init and Superior Init.
Mix and match some of the above.

Thoughts?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

What does Dire Charge do, now?

Either Epic Prowess (x2) like we had before, or Improved Initiative with Superior Initiative or Dire Charge, depending on your answer to the above question.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

"If you charge a foe during the first round of combat (or the surprise round, if you are allowed to act in it), you can make a full attack against the opponent you charge."

In other words, very little use for an epic feat.    

Let's go with Imp/Sup Init, since no one seemed to keen on Epic Prowess earlier.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

updating in homebrews shortly... check the initiative and attack bonuses please.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2005)

Init +12 (+4 Dex, +8 Superior [supercedes Imp Init])

It looks like you've got the attack modifiers correct.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 7, 2005)

cool, updating again for one more look...


----------



## Clifford (Oct 8, 2005)

Boz Basicaly Wrote: Nya nya We have dibs on all the arch fiends.
___________________

Crud man i was looking foreward to converting these jokers. just got burned out of Kertzit. Oh well so what do we do next?

>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

just keepin the good stuff for myself.    no seriously, like i said, if they accept the proposal you know we'll be coming here for as much input as usual, like we did with the Monsters of the Mind article (coming up in Dragon #337), and the Ferrous Dragons article (which we haven't heard anything about yet).

seriously, don't tell me you don't think it would be way cool to see something like that, done by us, in Dragon mag.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Methinks he's ready for his close-up.


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Paring down the list further...

Eltab (Spellbound boxed set)....appears in Champions of Ruin.

Spirits of the Air (Chinese - also appeared in Planescape campaign setting)...and appear in MMII.

Japanese monsters (Tanuki, Hannya)...hannya appears in Oriental Adventures, but is decidedly un-epic.

Age of Heroes - Scylla....is rumored to be an archdevil in Stormwrack...perhaps they have plans for her in Fiendish Codex II?


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

Which leaves us with...

Archomentals (Good) (Ben-Hadar, Chan, Sunnis, Zaaman Rul)

And from the first edition Deities and Demigods, as well as the second edition Legends and Lore, there are a number of beings that are not quite gods but very powerful all the same. These include:
Air Maidens (Finnish – Ukko’s warriors)
Antaeus (Greek giant)
Dahak (Babylonian three-headed dragon spirit of death)
Enceladus (Greek giant)
Fenris Wolf (Norse)
Garm (Norse guardian of Hel-gate)


Legends and Lore additions:
American Indian monsters (Big Head, Gahonga, Ohdowa)
Chinese monsters (Neglected Spirit, Ancestral; Generals of the Animal Spirits)
Greek monsters (Gigantes - Antaeus & Enceladus)
Japanese monsters (Tanuki)
Norse (Fafnir)

Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga - Baba Yaga

Plus, there are some monsters lurking in the other conversion thread queues that are better suited for this thread:

From D&D Immortals Set:
Draeden
Dragon Rulers
Elemasters
Megaliths
Tonals

From Dragon Magazine:
174 - Crystalle (The Dragon's Bestiary, Matthew P. Hargenrader)
230 - Zakhur Lifesbane the Guardian (Fire in the Five Peaks, Ed Stark)
248 - Vore Lekiniskiy "Master Fire Worm" (The Dragon of Vstaive Peak, Ed Stark)
260 - An-Ur the Wandering Death, Dhrakoth the Corruptor, Mordukhavar the Reaver, Medrinia, Xathanon, Vanathor the Golden Harpist (Spawn of Tiamat, Children of Bahamut, Keith Francis Strohm)...which I've already converted, but we can always retool for the CC.
Annual 4 - Ghazneths

I4 - Oasis of the White Palm
Aeraldoth (vizier to Caliph of the Djinn)
Pasha of the Efreet (Vizier of the Fire Sultan)

...and I'm sure I'm missing more.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Spirits of the Air (Chinese - also appeared in Planescape campaign setting)...and appear in MMII.




i see spirit of the land...


----------



## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

how about Antaeus and Enceladus?


----------



## Shade (Oct 8, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i see spirit of the land...




Oops!  Make that Fiend Folio.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about Antaeus and Enceladus?




Yes!  I believe someone mentioned a lack of truly massive giants.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 8, 2005)

good deal!  i had written them up very early in 3.0 so we can make use of that.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 8, 2005)

Archomentals! he did the hell out of giants "Titans Cough Titans" Ok so maybe they are outsiders but damn it they are ginat humanoidish beings lets do the elemental rulers alrighty. 
Whaddya say?

Cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

i'll let Shade answer your question this time, as i'm sure i look bad enough already with my answer regarding the archfiends.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

Oops...I _meant _ to remove them from the list, but uh..didn't.  Yeah, we'll have to skip those for now as well for similar reasons to the archfiends.    

I double-checked the last list I posted, and I'm 99.99% confident that the rest are fair game.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

OK, will get the greek giants this week then.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 10, 2005)

This is going to be a verry short thread.

Oh well may as well propose an article to dragon myself. No wait i have to finish this blasted monster book. 

Cliff
>=)


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2005)

Well, considering that each one of these epic critters takes about a month, I'd say there's several years' worth of thread left.    

What monster book are you working on?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 10, 2005)

yeah, what book is that?


----------



## Clifford (Oct 10, 2005)

havent thought up a name yet but so far i have like 130 monsters + 25 or so templates.

was suposed to be an article for en gamer but it grew out of controll MUA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

cliff
>=)


----------



## Clifford (Oct 13, 2005)

Alrighty eanough rambling from me as it tends to paralyze threads. But what are we doing next? How about the thunder bird from native american mythology it is in Dieties and demigods first edition. What do ya say?

Cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

before that, i want to revise my ancient conversion of the gigantes; enceladus and antaeus: http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=65293&postcount=3

1E D&DG:

ANTAEUS (giant)
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE/POINTS: 100 hp
% IN LAIR: 50%
TREASURE TYPE: Q (X 3)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/AHACK: 2-16/3-18/4-24/5-30/6-36/7-42/8-48 (see below)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Growth, regeneration (see below)
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L(U'-2T)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/14,000 + 35 per hp when killed

This giant is the offspring of Poseidon and Gaia, the original earth-deity.
He grows stronger each round he fights, as long as he remains on the
earth. Antaeus starts similar to a hill giant in size and appearance, but
every round he fights he grows, gaining the size and strength each round
of the next largest giant type, until he reaches titan strength and size. Each
time he grows, all damage he has taken is healed, and he increases a
further 25 hit points (up to 250 total). Even after he ceases growing, all
damage he takes in one round is healed in the next as long as he remains
on the earth. Antaeus will remain at titan size as long as he fights, gradually
shrinking when the battle is over. If Antaeus is lifted off the ground, he
loses strength and size at the same rate he gained it, and will no longer
heal. He always attacks as a 16+ hit dice monster.


ENCELADUS (giant)
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: I
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE/POINTS: 219 hp
% IN LAIR: 85%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 7-70/7-70
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGN/WENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (85')
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/21,175

This giant has huge snake bodies and tails for legs. It is known to live alone
in a desolate swamp. Enceladus is so horrifying that any who come within
100 yards of him must save vs. spells or flee in fear (as the spell).

There is a power in this being's hands that allows it to grab spells out of the
air and negate them before they have time to function. Enceladus can grab
up to four spells directed at him per melee round. If he does not grab
spells, he can strike with his fists for 7-70 points of damage each. He can
grab two spells with one hand and strike with the other, if he chooses. The
giant fights as a 16+ hit dice monster, and he has been known to fight
against the gods of Olympus if given the chance.


2E Legends & Lore:

Gigantes
The Gigantes are a race of giants that Gaea gave birth to when the blood of her-mutilated husband fell upon her earthly form. They are huge, manlike creatures with serpents for feet. Their hatred of the Olympian gods runs deep, and they will never pass up a chance to do one harm.

AC 1	
No. 1-2	
SZ 15’	
XP: varies
MV 15	
ML 16	
AL ce	
Int low
HD 16	
HP 128	
MR nil	
THAC0 5
#AT 1	
Dmg 2d8 (fist)

Special Att/Def:  Varies by individual.

Each Gigante has at least one special power; for example, Antaeus heals all damage he takes each round. In combat, he also increases 2’ in size and does an additional ld8 in damage each round, to a maximum size of 21’ and a maximum of 5d8 in damage. Both of these powers work only as long as his feet are touching the ground. Another gigante, Enceladus, is so terrifying in aspect that any being seeing him must save versus spells or flee as if affected by a fear spell. Any time he saves against a magic spell, Enceladus can grab it out of the air and fling it back at his attackers. If the spell allows no saving throw, he is automatically able to use this power.


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

Clifford said:
			
		

> Alrighty eanough rambling from me as it tends to paralyze threads. But what are we doing next? How about the thunder bird from native american mythology it is in Dieties and demigods first edition. What do ya say?




Nah, you don't paralyze threads.  Stun 'em maybe...    

A thunderbird showed up in Sandstorm, and is clearly modeled after *the * thunderbird.  However, we could probably do the original as well.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 14, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> A thunderbird showed up in Sandstorm, and is clearly modeled after *the * thunderbird.  However, we could probably do the original as well.




Thunderbird 2?   

Thunderbirds are go!   

Now back to our original schedule...

Regards,
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

I'll bust out the marionettes.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

gaze skyward for the next conversion...


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> gaze skyward for the next conversion...




Yeah, they are kinda tall.    

Did you want to stat out the generic gigantes race as you did before, or just do the two uniques?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

does it seem like a good idea?


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

I dont' see why not, since they were treated as such in Legends & Lore.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 14, 2005)

May as well itt'ill save us from haveing to do it later when Boz get a wild hair to do it. JK these sem sorta interesting maybe it wont be as bad as i thought. HEH anyway on with the conversion.

>=)


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

Alrighty.  Getting the ball rolling...

Gigantes
Large Giant
Hit Dice: 16d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (–1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+X
Attack: Slam +X melee (2d8+X) or rock +X ranged (2d6+X)
Full Attack: 2 slams +X melee (2d8+X) or rock +X ranged (2d6+X)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rock throwing
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, rock catching
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 5-7, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 38
Feats: 6
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In Greek mythology, the Gigantes were a race of giants. They were born of Gaia, who was fertiziled by the blood of Ouranos that resulted from his castration by Cronus.
> 
> The Gigantes attacked the Olympians in what is known as the Gigantomachia. Led on by Alcyoneus and Porphyrion, the Gigantes hoped to reach the top of Mount Olympus by stacking the mountain ranges of Thessaly, Pelion and Ossa, on top of each other. The Olympians called upon the aid of Heracles after a prophecy warned them that he was required to defeat the Gigante. Heracles slew not only Alcyoneus, but dealt the death blow to the Gigantes who has been wounded by the Olympians.
> 
> ...




Interesting...Antaeus wasn't actually a true gigante.



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> Antaeus in Greek mythology was a giant of Libya, the son of Poseidon and Gaia, and his wife was Tinjis. He was extremely strong as long as he remained in contact with the ground (his mother earth), but once lifted into the air he became as weak as water. He would challenge all passers-by to wrestling matches, kill them, and collect their skulls, so that he might one day build out of them a temple to his father Poseidon. Heracles, finding that he could not beat Antaeus by throwing him to the ground, discovered the secret of his power and held Antaeus aloft until he died (Apollodorus ii. 5; Hyginus, Fab. 31). The fable of Antaeus has been used as a symbol of the spiritual strength which accrues when one rests his faith on the immediate fact of things. The struggle between Antaeus and Heracles is a favourite subject in ancient sculpture.
> 
> In the Divine Comedy, Antaeus is a giant who guards the ninth circle of Hell, and lowers Dante and Virgil down to the iced-over Cocytus.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

eh, it wouldn't be the first time D&D has screwed up mythology.  

but i'm not in the business of making D&D critters that match with mythology, i'm about upgrading old stats.  

if, however, you feel that making Antaeus a Gigante would be wrong, i would be fine with dropping the whole racial idea and just make Antaeus and Enceladus two unrelated giants.


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> eh, it wouldn't be the first time D&D has screwed up mythology.




No, it wouldn't.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> but i'm not in the business of making D&D critters that match with mythology, i'm about upgrading old stats.




Covertin' is our business...and business is good.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> if, however, you feel that making Antaeus a Gigante would be wrong, i would be fine with dropping the whole racial idea and just make Antaeus and Enceladus two unrelated giants.




Yeah, I think unique giants may work best, like 1E DD&G did it.  It looks like 2E L&L dropped the ball.  

We can definitely mention the other gigantes in Encel's description, though.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

OK, that is how we shall do it, then.


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

Cool.



> SIZE: L(U'-2T)




What does this mean?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

that means text doesn't always scan the way you want it to.    i'll have to look it up in the actual book at home, unless someone else can tell me what antaeus' actual height is from D&DG.


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

I have no clue, but if we want to stick with the "begins the size of a hill giant", that's easy to determine.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 14, 2005)

right, i mean check out my initial conversion - i did that straight from the book long before i started using scanners.


----------



## Shade (Oct 14, 2005)

OK..gotcha.   Let's see...starts at 11 feet tall, grows to the size of a titan.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 15, 2005)

So like each round he grows a foot or something gaining +1 str +1 con. this will eventualy give him more hit points and better damage. (why am i reminded of the hulk movie?) anyway.
Back to convertin!

Cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

Antaeus' height should be "L (11'-21')" - almost forgot to post that!


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

A hill giant starts at 10-1/2 feet tall now, and a titan starts at 25 feet.  If we stick with the method that he grows comparable to other giants, we'll need to make that adjustment.

That raises the question...do we have him essentially match one of the other giants at each boost, or stick with a more generic +X to Str, etc.?   Personally, I like the former...it's easier for most DMs to just flip to the appropriate giant than make a bunch of stat changes on the fly.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 17, 2005)

So are we gonna be nice and make a statblock for each size incrament? 

Cliff
>=)


----------



## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

hah!  no way.   _maybe_ one of those little condensed stat blocks, but not a full one.

let's start with antaeus... because he's first alphabetically.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Bring on the Ant-man.


----------



## Clifford (Oct 17, 2005)

so hill giant type stats to begain with? Hey sense his feet is snakes dose he get poisonous Kick slam attacks?

Cliff
>=)


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Wikipedia said:
			
		

> In the Divine Comedy, Antaeus is a giant who guards the ninth circle of Hell, and lowers Dante and Virgil down to the iced-over Cocytus.




If we use this, his Environment line should read "Windswept Depths of Pandemonium (Cocytus)".    

I'm researching his mythological origins further regarding the "snake feet".


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

More from mythology/literature...



> Poseidon and Gaea are the parents of this abominable Giant. Antaeus lives in the deserts of Libya and feeds on lions. Antaeus promises his father Poseidon to build a Poseidon-temple out of human sculls and therefore all travelers are killed without mercy.
> Hercules meets this giant on his way to find the Golden Apples of the Hesperides and beats Antaeus to the ground three times. Every time Antaeus falls to the ground, his mother Gaea renews him with strength. Hercules discovers the secret, lifts Antaeus off the ground and strangles him with his bare hands.




Oops..it looks like the other fella is the one with snake legs.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

yeah, enceladus was the freaky-looking one.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> If we use this, his Environment line should read "Windswept Depths of Pandemonium (Cocytus)".




yeah, but you're basing that on Dante's work, not Greek myth.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, but you're basing that on Dante's work, not Greek myth.




Is that so bad?   I see the Greek stuff as 1E, and Dante's work as Planescape.  I like to use all sources, if possible.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

eh... i don't know.  maybe.  probably not though.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

For HD, did you want to stick with 16 like your original conversion, or go higher?  If we use the HD/4.5 rule that we sometimes use for unique 1E creatures, he'd have 22 HD, which is a bit more epic.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

yeah, i'm fine with going higher.  when i originally converted that in 2001, there weren't many high level critters to compare to.


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Will 22 HD be enough?  That would put him in the CR 15-16 range, slightly better than a storm giant, but less than a death giant.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

good point.  what CR should we be aiming for with this fellow anyway?


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Well, if we want him to be epic, it should be at least 21.    

A titan is CR 21.  The ability to heal automatically every round outta count for some serious CR.  It is at least comparable to the titan's potent array of SLAs.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

well, let's see.  in the D&DG, he starts off (mind you, of course this goes up) with 100 hp.  that's less than cerberus (almost half), and way way less than any of the greater titans we converted.  not that hp should be the sole determiner of CR mind you!

so, do we need to go higher than CR 21 with him?


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Let's start with CR 21 and see how it plays out.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

sounds good.  what HD should we start at, assuming CR 21 and his abilities?


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

I see two options:

1)  Start at a high HD, gaining only size bonuses, etc. with grow ability.
2)  Start at a lower HD, similar to a hill giant, gaining additional HD with the growth ability as well.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

i say keep him at the same HD, and let Con bonuses do the rest.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

It works for the war hulk prestige class, so why not?


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## Clifford (Oct 19, 2005)

Yeah sounds good to me!!!
>=)


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

So....how 'bout that initial stat block to get the ball rollin'?


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## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

i shall get that together soon.


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## Clifford (Oct 19, 2005)

Also what about a poisonous kick attack with its snake legs?

I was actualy being serious.

>=)


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

I took you seriously, but that's for the other fella (En-something-or-other).   

This guy has normal, human-like legs.


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## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

Antaeus looks like a normal hill giant, who can increase in size.

Enceladus has snake-bits and is freaky looking in general.


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## Clifford (Oct 19, 2005)

oh sorry i coulda swore that i ready somewhere that his legs were like 100 snakes or something. Speaking of which are we gonna do a generic gigante. I can think of another one not in any book but from a legend. I beleive that he was Panoptes Or panoptis or something like that. Hill giant sized dude with 100 eyes alover his boddy

Cliff


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## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

i don't know; the more i think about it, the idea of a generic model for a race where each member is unique doesn't seem like a good idea.


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## Clifford (Oct 20, 2005)

Ok so how about a gigante subtype or something? Y'know to represent comon traits each member of the species posess. Kinda like abominations and Tana'ri.

>=)
Cliff


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2005)

that's not out of the question.  what would be the subtype traits then?


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## Clifford (Oct 20, 2005)

Hmm good question. I dunno it just seems like they should have some uniform traits in common with one another, Instead of being "Gaea and Posidons Boys."

Anyway 
>=)


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## Clifford (Oct 21, 2005)

*Some Antaeus bits*

Antaeus in Greek mythology was a giant of Libya, the son of Poseidon and Gaia, and his wife was Tinjis. He was extremely strong as long as he remained in contact with the ground (his mother earth), but once lifted into the air he became as weak as water. He would challenge all passers-by to wrestling matches, kill them, and collect their skulls, so that he might one day build out of them a temple to his father Poseidon. Heracles, finding that he could not beat Antaeus by throwing him to the ground, discovered the secret of his power and held Antaeus aloft until he died (Apollodorus ii. 5; Hyginus, Fab. 31). The fable of Antaeus has been used as a symbol of the spiritual strength which accrues when one rests his faith on the immediate fact of things. The struggle between Antaeus and Heracles is a favourite subject in ancient sculpture.


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## Clifford (Oct 21, 2005)

*More Bits*

http://thanasis.com/modern/giants.htm


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what HD should we start at, assuming CR 21 and his abilities?




did we ever discuss this?


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

I don't think so.   Here are other giants at various CRs for comparison:

Eldritch:  25 HD, CR 15
Death:  23 HD, CR 16
Shadow:  18 HD, CR 18
Geriviar:  26 HD, CR 19
Ocean:  18 HD, CR 19
Mountain:  30 HD, CR 26 (overwhelmingly declared over-CR'ed)

So....probably at least 25 HD.


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

at the very least.  giants tend to have much higher HD than their CR.  taking his growth power and super fast healing (and his vulnerability) into account, we need to set an appropriate HD to make him a proper challenge for a low-level epic party.

let's examine him a little first, before choosing a HD to work with.  he probably needs a DR, maybe 10/epic.  he probably shouldn't have SR, and he can maybe have some weak resistances (5 at the most, definitely no immunities).

i really wouldn't give him any "extras" beyond that, since it doesn't seem appropriate.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

I can definitely see DR, and agree no SR.  I don't really see any reason for resistances.  His ridiculous fast healing should take care of any fire damage, etc.   If anything, as a son of Poseidon and Gaia, he could have acid resistance.


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

sounds good.  

i'm thinking 32-HD minumum.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

Shall we start with that and see where it takes us?


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

sounds good.  took my original stat block, adjusted ability scores and natural armor to be more like hill giants, and 3.5'ed it.  we can adjust some things to reflect the fact that he is indeed much more than a hill giant.

*Giant, Antaeus*
Large Giant (Earth)
Hit Dice: 32d8+128 (272 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +24/+35
Attacks: Slam +30 melee (2d4+7)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: ---
Special Qualities: Growth, superior fast healing, contact with earth, damage reduction 10/epic, resistance to acid 5, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +9, Will +10
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 12 
Skills: (Climb +13, Jump +13, Spot +7) and Listen
Feats: (Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Sunder) and Improved Bull Rush, maybe Awesome Blow as well

Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 21
Treasure: No coins; triple goods (gems only); no items
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: ---


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

I think we should give him the rock throwing and catching abilities common to most giants.  Thoughts?


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

i don't see why it would be a problem; on the flip side it's not exactly necessary.  i'm ambivilent towards that one.

i think the natural armor could use a boost.  possibly the ability scores too, but not necessarily a whole lot.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

This guy was born to have this feat:

Legendary Wrestler [Epic]
You are exceptionally proficient at grappling.
Prerequisites: Str 21, Dex 21, Improved Unarmed Strike, Escape Artist 15 ranks.
Benefit: You gain a +10 bonus on all grapple checks.
Special: A monk can qualify for this feat without having the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.
Source: Epic Level Handbook, p. 62.

I don't know if we want to make this a bonus feat or improve his Dex so he qualifies, but it seems like a given.    

Nat armor could easily be raised to +14 or higher, as most of the high-CR giants have at least that amount.


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

That feat would be perfect.  I don't have a problem with adjusting his Dex at all, but I think that 21 might be too high (correct me if I'm wrong).  That could be a fine bonus feat for him if need be.


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## Mortis (Oct 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> That feat would be perfect.  I don't have a problem with adjusting his Dex at all, but I think that 21 might be too high (correct me if I'm wrong).  That could be a fine bonus feat for him if need be.



I vote for bonus feat. The hike in Dex is just too much, if it was just a few points it would be fine, but not 13 points.

Regards,
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2005)

That's fine by me.  Bonus feat it is.


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

Agreed.  Still, a Dex increase would not be out of the question, especially considering that he will lose Dex when he increases in size.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2005)

Since it starts at Large, it will lose at most -2 Dex.  Should we increase Dex by 2 to compensate?


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2005)

sounds good.  then he doesn't start with a penalty.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2005)

Excellent.


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2005)

OK, on to Anty’s abilities.



			
				Deities and Demigods said:
			
		

> He grows stronger each round he fights, as long as he remains on the earth. Antaeus starts similar to a hill giant in size and appearance, but every round he fights he grows, gaining the size and strength each round of the next largest giant type, until he reaches titan strength and size.
> 
> Antaeus will remain at titan size as long as he fights, gradually shrinking when the battle is over.




What I originally wrote:
Growth (Su): Every round that he is in combat after the first one, Antaeus continues to grow and become stronger. After each combat round, he grows two feet taller (and appropriately heavier), increases the damage on his slam attack by 1d8, and gains 2 points of Strength and Constitution, with appropriate damage and hit point adjustments. He continues to grow until he is strong like a titan: 23' tall, with Str 37 and Con 29, with a slam attack of 8d8+15 damage. Antaeus will remain at this size as long as he fights, and will gradually shrink back down to normal size when the battle is over.

That is a bit of a messy explanation though.  What can I say; that was four years ago and I was definitely not well-practiced.    if he is only going up to titan size, that is not much bigger than what he started out with isn't it?  It meant more in 1E I think.

Let me go out in a limb here, and do something I don't often do: how about just going with the most simplest explanation and say he just grows one size category every time he grows and let him go all the way to Colossal?  This would give him the Str, Con, nat armor, and other bonuses, as well as increase the base damage he deals with weapons.

We could say that, perhaps, his height doubles every round, or maybe the change would be every other round.



			
				Deities and Demigods said:
			
		

> Each time he grows, all damage he has taken is healed, and he increases a further 25 hit points (up to 250 total). Even after he ceases growing, all damage he takes in one round is healed in the next as long as he remains on the earth.




What I originally wrote:
Regeneration (Su): Antaeus heals all damage practically instantaneously at the beginning of each round. When his hit points increase at the beginning of a round, he will therefore have his new maximum hit points.

Probably call it a derivative of fast healing, but I'm sure it would otherwise be the same, rewording it as necessary.



			
				Deities and Demigods said:
			
		

> If Antaeus is lifted off the ground, he loses strength and size at the same rate he gained it, and will no longer heal.




What I originally wrote:
Contact With Earth (Su): Antaeus must maintain contact with the earth in order for his powers to function. If he is somehow lifted off the ground, his regeneration will no longer work (although he does not lose hit points that he had gained because of it), and he will return back to normal size at the same rate at which he grew.

Again, should stay pretty much the same but reworded.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

I think the increase in one size category each round is the most elegant solution for the growth ability.  Doubling the height would work...I just checked the size ranges and it fits in fine.

How's this?

Instantaneous Healing (Ex): If he begins his turn in contact with the ground, Anty instantly regains all lost hit points. This works just like natural healing. It does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation, and it does not allow Anty to regrow or reattach lost body parts.

I'd ditch the contact with the earth ability and simply state in the other two abilities what happens when he loses contact with the earth.

We might also want to give this fella earth mastery like earth elementals.


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## BOZ (Nov 2, 2005)

earth mastery yes, and i shall work up his growth power after lunch.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2005)

Cool.  Here's the ability for ease of reference:

Earth Mastery (Ex): An earth elemental gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls if both it and its foe are touching the ground. If an opponent is airborne or waterborne, the elemental takes a –4 penalty on attack and damage rolls. (These modifiers are not included in the statistics block.)


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

here's my first attempt at this ability:

Growth (Su): As a (free?) action, Antaeus may begin growing, increasing his mass and physical prowess incrementally.  So long as he wishes, Antaeus will continue to grow every subsequent round, at the beginning of his turn.  When Antaeus grows, his size increases to the next highest size category (doubling in height and weight, and his ability scores, natural armor bonus, and base slam damage change appropriately).  When Antaeus reaches Colossal size he stops growing, and can remain at that size as long as he wishes.  

When Antaeus wishes to end this ability, is no longer in contact with the earth, becomes unconscious, or dies, he returns to his normal size by decreasing to the next lowest size category each round.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Expanding it...

Growth (Su): As long as he is in contact with the ground, Antaeus may, as a free action,  begin growing, increasing his mass and physical prowess incrementally. So long as he wishes and remains in contact with the ground, Antaeus will continue to grow every subsequent round, at the beginning of his turn. When Antaeus grows, his size increases to the next highest size category, gaining all benefits and penalties for the size increase (ability scores, natural armor bonus, and base slam damage change appropriately), and doubling in height and weight. When Antaeus reaches Colossal size he stops growing, but can remain at that size as long as he wishes. 

When Antaeus wishes to end this ability, loses contact with the ground, becomes unconscious, or dies, he returns to his normal size by decreasing to the next lowest size category each round.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

Skills: 70 (Climb +13, Jump +13, Spot +7) and Listen, Escape Artist
Feats: 11 (Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Improved Sunder) and Improved Bull Rush, maybe Awesome Blow as well
Epic Feats: Legendary Wrestler (b)

the stuff in parenthesis is what i originally gave him once upon a time...


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Climb, Jump, and Spot seem common among Giants.  Listen and Intimidate are other popular choices.  Escape Artist probably would never approach his grapple modifier, making it of little use to him.

I like the seven feats you have listed, except for Combat Reflexes (Dex is too low).  Maybe also Weapon Focus (slam), Improved Critical (slam), Endurance, Epic Toughness, Epic Will?


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

sounds good.  posting in homebrews...


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Add 30 hp for Epic Toughness.

Add 10 to grapple modifier or Legendary Wrestler.

Attack modifiers should be 1 higher.

Add 4 to Will save for Epic Will.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2005)

d'oh, i meant to add in the bonuses from the feats but forgot...

how is he looking now?


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2005)

Lookin' sharp.    

Are the skills finished?  If so, remove the 70 from the line.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2005)

was he done?  i forget.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2005)

I think so, if you removed the "70".


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

Gettin' the ball rolling on the next one.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ENCELADUS (giant)
> FREQUENCY: Unique
> NO. APPEARING: I
> ARMOR CLASS: 1
> ...




We also discussed a poison "kick" attack with his snake-legs.

Also, from Wikipedia:  In Greek mythology, Enceladus was one of the Gigantes, who was defeated in battle by Zeus's thunderbolts and buried under Mount Etna by Athena. Mount Etna's fires were supposed to be the breath of Enceladus, and its eruptions were caused by his rolling his injured side inside the mountain. Some believe that he is the same as Typhon.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

I have no doubts that this fella should be Colossal.    

Using the hp/4.5 method, he'd have 48 Hit Dice.  Does this sound reasonable?


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Let's get the basics started.

Colossal
Aberration? or Giant? 
Hit Dice: 40-45?
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)

Abilities: Str 35-40, Dex 8, Con 27-33, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I have no doubts that this fella should be Colossal.
> 
> Using the hp/4.5 method, he'd have 48 Hit Dice.  Does this sound reasonable?



Just seen this after posting. How about a nice round 50 Hit Dice. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

I'd defintely prefer the Giant type.  And if we go giant, 48 makes a nice round number (because it divides evenly by 4 for its BAB of 3/4 Hit Dice).


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd defintely prefer the Giant type.  And if we go giant, 48 makes a nice round number (because it divides evenly by 4 for its BAB of 3/4 Hit Dice).



Aberration / Giant doesn't matter - they both have a 3/4 Hit Dice progression. 

But 48 divides better for the saves. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

I'd beef up the physical ability scores a tad:

Mountain Giant (Colossal, 40 feet tall): Str 43, Dex 10, Con 37
Ocean Giant (Huge): Str 39, Dex 15, Con 28
Titan (Huge): Str 43, Dex 12, Con 39

It seems that the mountain giant, besides being over CR'ed, is also under-Strengthed.

Since this fella is almost twice as big as a mountain giant, I'd recommend:

Str 50+, Dex 10, Con 42+


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

Str 53 Dex 10 Con 45?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

Now we're talkin'.


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## Mortis (Nov 10, 2005)

These will need checking.  
Base Attack Bonus/Grapple: +36/+73 (+36 BAB, +21 Str, +16 Size)
Attack: +49 (+36 BAB, +21 Str, -8 Size)

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2005)

wow!    i'll get to this guy sooner or later; i hadn't forgotten him, just busy with other stuff.


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## Mortis (Nov 11, 2005)

The save DC for his poison kick (once we decide what it does) is an impressive 51. 
(10 + 1/2 HD [24] + Con Mod [+17]).

Saves: Fort +43 Ref +16 Will +17

I'm assuming that good saves = 2/3 HD + Ability Mod
and that bad saves = 1/3 HD + Ability Mod

However I checked this against a few converted monsters namely the Ape of the Isles and Oonga and their good saves are a little lower. For example Oonga's Fort save is 25 (-5 for his Con modifier leaves 20 whereas 2/3 of his HD would be 24) is there a modifier that I'm forgetting? Possibly a size modifier?   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2005)

Actually, good saves are 1/2 HD + 2 + ability modifier.


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## Mortis (Nov 11, 2005)

Well that explains a lot.    

I'll fix the above saves

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2005)

OK, about time I got into this guy.    let's finish up him and the current conversions before starting any new ones, as that gives us another 10.    looks like we're back in the swing, given that.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We also discussed a poison "kick" attack with his snake-legs.




" This giant has huge snake bodies and tails for legs. "  I'm sorry, but I don't see how having snake tails for legs entitles him to getting poisonous bite attacks.  Unless there is a mythological text out there somewhere that said he has snake heads on his feet?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I have no doubts that this fella should be Colossal.




this would be how I originally converted him, yes.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Using the hp/4.5 method, he'd have 48 Hit Dice.  Does this sound reasonable?




it's a possibility.  Shouldn't we set the CR first?  We set the other giant Antaeus at 21.  in 1E, anty had 100 hp and Ency had 219, so big difference there.  Antaeus has no special attacks (but his growth makes him more smashy), but he does have a decent array of defensive powers.  Ency has frightful presence and that funky spell turning ability.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Abilities: Str 35-40, Dex 8, Con 27-33, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Str 53 Dex 10 Con 45?




I had set him at Str 35, Dex 12, Con 30, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8 in my 3.0 conversion, but I am not against changing that.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, about time I got into this guy.    let's finish up him and the current conversions before starting any new ones, as that gives us another 10.    looks like we're back in the swing, given that.




As you wishhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....................



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> " This giant has huge snake bodies and tails for legs. "  I'm sorry, but I don't see how having snake tails for legs entitles him to getting poisonous bite attacks.  Unless there is a mythological text out there somewhere that said he has snake heads on his feet?




Agreed.  No heads = no bites = no poison.  I could see a constrict attack, though.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> this would be how I originally converted him, yes.




Way to look ahead, bud.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it's a possibility.  Shouldn't we set the CR first?  We set the other giant Antaeus at 21.  in 1E, anty had 100 hp and Ency had 219, so big difference there.  Antaeus has no special attacks (but his growth makes him more smashy), but he does have a decent array of defensive powers.  Ency has frightful presence and that funky spell turning ability.




What did Hecatoncheires have in previous editions?  He's CR 57 now with 52 HD.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I had set him at Str 35, Dex 12, Con 30, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8 in my 3.0 conversion, but I am not against changing that.




What a wuss!


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

constrict attack = possible.  

the ELH hecantoncheires is a fair deviation from the original version.  however, we do have in the CC from the Greek myths:

Cerberus CR21 HD45 (originally 190 hp)
Antaeus CR21 HD32 (100 hp)
Coeus CR27 HD40 (344 hp)
Epimetheus CR27 HD40 (345 hp)
Atlas CR30 HD41 (350 hp)Prometheus CR32 HD48 (388 hp)
Oceanus CR33 HD49 (390 hp)
Crius CR33 HD49 (390 hp)
Cronus CR35 HD51 (400 hp)

so if we are dealing with his CR first, maybe CR 23-25?


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## Mortis (Nov 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so if we are dealing with his CR first, maybe CR 23-25?



CR 24?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

We can shoot for 24.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

so then, the question becomes, if we are shooting for a CR 24 creature, with the abilities we understand him to have, what HD do we want to set him at?  does 48 still work or should we move up or down from that?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Since the only giant over CR 20 is the mountain giant, which the designers have admitted is way over CR'd, let's try a different approach.  A geriviar, one of the most recent giants, at CR 19, has 26 HD.  Using the +1 per 4 HD added rule if we were to advanced one to CR 24, we'd get 46 HD.  That's pretty close to our original estimation of 48.


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## Mortis (Nov 14, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> That's pretty close to our original estimation of 48.



Yeah stick with 48 it makes the maths easy 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

so sticking with 48 then?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

That sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

I have found several pages that indicated that he had fire breath in some Greek myths.

He was apparently slain by Athena, not Zeus, who threw a large chunk of land on him which became the isle of Sicily.    

Also interesting, his name translates to "urge on, sound a charge".

This might help with the descriptive text:

"The Gigantes were depicted as hoplite warriors or primitive men wearing panther skins and armed with flaming torches and rocks. In sculpture they were usually represented legged with the tails of serpents."

"The great Gigantes with gleaming armour." - Hesiod, Theogony 176

"These creatures [the Gigantes] were unsurpassed in the size of their bodies and unconquerable by virtue of their power. They were frightening in appearance, with long hair that swept down from their heads and chins, and serpent-scales covering their lower limbs." - Apollodorus, The Library 1.34

"That the Gigantes had serpents for feet is an absurd tale." - Pausanias, Guide to Greece 8.28.1

"The myths record that the Gigantes were sons of Ge (Earth) because of the exceedingly great size of their bodies." - Diodorus Siculus, Library of History 4.21.5

"The serpent-footed Gigantes strove each to grapple in his hundred arms the captive sky." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 1.185

"The monstrous forms of Terrigenum (Earth’s children) ... the Gigantum, whom in compassion their mother [Gaia] clothed with rocks, trees, crags and piled up to heaven new-shaped as mountains." - Valerius Flaccus, Argonautica 2.16

"The snakehaired Gigantes ... the coiling sons of Gaia with two hundred hands [ie there were a hundred Gigantes], who pressed the starry vault with manynecked heads." - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 25.85

"The snaky sons of Gaia [the Gigantes] ... with huge serpents flowing over their shoulders equally on both sides much bigger than the Inakhian snake [ie, their long serpentine legs coiled down then up over their shoulders] ... went hissing restlessly about among the stars of heaven." - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 25.206

"The horrid hosts of Gigantes serpent-haired." - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 1.18

"The multitudinous hands of the Gigantes ... the Gigantes’ heads with those viper tresses." - Nonnus, Dionysiaca 48.6


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

the problem with mythology is that it is sometimes written and rewritten... thus the varying accounts above!  internal consistency, people, internal consistency!


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

At least it gives us something to go on other than "he looks like a really, really big human".


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

with snake legs!  

what were we considering for ability scores, again?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Str 53, Dex 10, Con 45.  We hadn't discussed brains, brightness, or beauty.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

"INTELLIGENCE: Low"

which, in 1E terms is 5-7.  don't know that we should raise that if he's basically a freakish, raging monster.

beauty he's definitely lacking, but we don't want a low Cha since he's got frightful presence.

in my original conversion, i went with Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 14.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Comparing to other giants, I think your proposed stats work fine.

Mountain:  Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Hill:  Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 7
Frost:  Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11
Fire:  Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

oh, duh, my original conversion had his stats at Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 8; the stats i posted above were Mortis' suggestions.  but to tell the truth, i like his idea better.    though i will lower his Int to 7.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

OK, check my numbers please:

*Giant, Enceladus*
Colossal Giant
Hit Dice: 48d8+816 (1,032 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares)
Armor Class: X (-8 size, +1 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +32/+61
Attack: Slam +45 melee (5d10+21)
Full Attack: 2 slams +45 melee (5d10+21)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: Frightful Presence, "Catch Spells"
Saves: Fort +43, Ref +14, Will +16
Abilities: Str 53, Dex 10, Con 45, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 14
Skills: 51 (Intimidate +5, Jump +18, Spot +7)
Feats: 17 (Alertness, Cleave, Improved Initiative, Power Attack)


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Remove the Dex bonus from AC line.

Ref save should be +16, Will +17 (48/3=16).


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

what say ye for natural AC?  should we give him some minor resistances as we did with Antaeus?  DR?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Nat armor:  At least 15, probably not more than 30 (after looking at other giants).

Since mythology associates him with essentially being a living volcano after his defeat, I'd say immunity to fire.   No electricity resistance, since conflicting reports have him being smote down by lightning bolts.  Maybe resistance 5 or 10 to acid and sonic?

DR 10/epic?


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

resistance to acid 10, immunity to fire is fine.  nat armor +20?  that DR is the same as Antaeus, so OK.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

All looks good to me.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

1E D&DG said:
			
		

> Enceladus is so horrifying that any who come within 100 yards of him must save vs. spells or flee in fear (as the spell).




what i originally wrote for him:

Frightful Presence (Ex): Enceladus is so large and horrifying that any beings within 100 yards of him that can see his full form become terrified. Affected creatures must succeed at a Will save (DC 20) or become panicked. Creatures with 10 or more Hit Dice who fail their save become frightened instead.



			
				1E D&DG said:
			
		

> There is a power in this being's hands that allows it to grab spells out of the air and negate them before they have time to function. Enceladus can grab up to four spells directed at him per melee round. If he does not grab spells, he can strike with his fists for 7-70 points of damage each. He can grab two spells with one hand and strike with the other, if he chooses.




what i originally wrote for him:

Catch Spells (Su): Enceladus may sacrifice one or both of his slam attacks to use this ability. He has the power to "catch" one or two spells in each hand, and can thus catch up to four spells directed at him per round. If the spell allows for a saving throw, he must succeed at the save to catch it, although the spell affects him if he fails. If there is no saving throw, he catches the spell automatically. Any spells that he catches he is able to fling back at the caster in the same round. Any such returned spells affect the caster or the area the caster is in fully, as normal.

i think that is a totally strange, weird attack that it must somehow be preserved if we can do that without going totally mad.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what i originally wrote for him:
> 
> Frightful Presence (Ex): Enceladus is so large and horrifying that any beings within 100 yards of him that can see his full form become terrified. Affected creatures must succeed at a Will save (DC 20) or become panicked. Creatures with 10 or more Hit Dice who fail their save become frightened instead.




Frightful Presence (Ex): Enceladus can unsettle foes with his mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever Enceladus attacks, charges, or leaps overhead. Creatures within a radius of 300 feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than Enceladus. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC X Will save remains immune to Enceladus's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 9 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 10 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Enceladus ignores the frightful presence of other creatures.  (the last sentence is debatable)



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> what i originally wrote for him:
> 
> Catch Spells (Su): Enceladus may sacrifice one or both of his slam attacks to use this ability. He has the power to "catch" one or two spells in each hand, and can thus catch up to four spells directed at him per round. If the spell allows for a saving throw, he must succeed at the save to catch it, although the spell affects him if he fails. If there is no saving throw, he catches the spell automatically. Any spells that he catches he is able to fling back at the caster in the same round. Any such returned spells affect the caster or the area the caster is in fully, as normal.
> 
> i think that is a totally strange, weird attack that it must somehow be preserved if we can do that without going totally mad.




Yes, we must preserve that.  I think we can just clean it up a little and it should still work as you wrote it.

Perhaps it should work similar to spell turning (cannot "catch" area effect or touch spells, for example)?


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes, we must preserve that.  I think we can just clean it up a little and it should still work as you wrote it.
> 
> Perhaps it should work similar to spell turning (cannot "catch" area effect or touch spells, for example)?




it should work just like spell turning.  to keep it simple, we could say that he has to sacrifice a slam attack to try to "catch" a spell (by making a successful save?), and then he can make a ranged touch attack to "throw" it back?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

That could work.  If we do it like spell turning, he probably wouldn't need to make a save.  In fact, if we model it off the current Deflect Arrows feat, it would be automatic.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2005)

give it a shot!


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2005)

Here's a start:

Catch Spells (Su): As a swift action, Enceladus may attempt to catch spells directed at him.  For each two spells he attempts to catch, he loses one slam attack in the following round.  This functions similar to spell turning, except there is no limit to the number of spell levels he can catch.  

Would it be simpler to have him "hold" the spells until his next action, then re-direct them?  That would explain why he loses his slam attacks in the following round.


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2005)

i would expect him to lose the slam attack in the same round, since he is "holding" the spell in that hand, and returning it.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

Yeah...I was just concerned about the wording.  Essentially, on someone else's action, they cast a spell at him.  As a swift action usable on another person's turn (or maybe immediate action is more appropriate here), Ency can catch the spells.  We could then either allow him to immediately return the spell (still on the caster's action), and just "owe" his slam attack when its his turn, or hold the spell until his action, then direct it back.  I'm fine either way, I just think we need to be clear.


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2005)

i think the spell can be caught on someone else's turn, and maybe then he only sacrifices his slam if he "throws" it back.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

So more like this?

Catch Spells (Su): As an immediate action, Enceladus may attempt to catch spells directed at him.  This functions similar to spell turning, except there is no limit to the number of spell levels he can catch, and the spell is not immediately redirected.  For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to hold the spell and redirect it on his turn (losing a slam attack for every two spells redirected in such a manner), or he may choose to let the spell energy dissipate harmlessly, in which case he does not lose a slam attack.  Enceladus may not catch more than four spells at a given time (two per hand).

To redirect a spell, Enceladus "throws" it at a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets.  The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.


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## Mortis (Nov 15, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> So more like this?
> 
> Catch Spells (Su): As an immediate action...




The problem with Immediate actions is that you can only perform one per round, unless there's been a precedent I'm unaware of.  :\ 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

Good point.  I suppose it will have to be worded as "a free action usable on another creature's turn".   :\


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## Mortis (Nov 15, 2005)

Another option, as we're talking epic creatures, is the possiblity of more than one Immediate action per turn. A new epic feat could do the job! 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2005)

he should at least be able to catch two spells per round.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2005)

Take three...

Catch Spells (Su): As a free action usable on another creature's turn, Enceladus may attempt to catch spells directed at him. This functions similar to spell turning, except there is no limit to the number of spell levels he can catch, and the spell is not immediately redirected. For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to hold the spell and redirect it on his turn (losing a slam attack for every two spells redirected in such a manner), or he may choose to let the spell energy dissipate harmlessly, in which case he does not lose a slam attack. Enceladus may not catch more than four spells at a given time (two per hand).

To redirect a spell, Enceladus "throws" it at a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.


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## Mortis (Nov 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Take three...
> 
> Catch Spells (Su): As a free action usable on another creature's turn, Enceladus may attempt to catch spells directed at him. This functions similar to spell turning, except there is no limit to the number of spell levels he can catch, and the spell is not immediately redirected. For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to hold the spell and redirect it on his turn (losing a slam attack for every two spells redirected in such a manner), or he may choose to let the spell energy dissipate harmlessly, in which case he does not lose a slam attack. Enceladus may not catch more than four spells at a given time (two per hand).
> 
> To redirect a spell, Enceladus "throws" it at a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.




Looks good. You may need to add a line stating something like 'Ency must redirect the held spells on his *NEXT* turn or the spell energy dissipates harmlessly' or he could 'technically' hold the spell forever 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 16, 2005)

agreed!


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

Ditto!  Revising again...

Catch Spells (Su): As a free action usable on another creature's turn, Enceladus may attempt to catch spells directed at him. This functions similar to spell turning, except there is no limit to the number of spell levels he can catch, and the spell is not immediately redirected. For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to hold the spell and redirect it on his turn (losing a slam attack for every two spells redirected in such a manner), or he may choose to let the spell energy dissipate harmlessly, in which case he does not lose a slam attack. Enceladus may not catch more than four spells at a given time (two per hand).  If Enceladus  does not redirect the held spells on his next turn, the spell energy dissipates harmlessly. 

To redirect a spell, Enceladus "throws" it at a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.


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## Kwitchit (Nov 16, 2005)

--post removed by author, see below--


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

Suggested Skills: Intimidate 17, Listen 17, Spot 17
Suggested Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Devastating Critical (slam), Epic Will, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Power Attack, Superior Initiative, Weapon Focus (slam)

I see no reason that it shouldn't have rock throwing and catching, so...

Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is X feet for Enceladus's thrown rocks.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

Kwitchit - We take the conversions one at a time in these threads to avoid confusion.  If you'd like to start a thread of your own, feel free, or we can add this to the request queue.


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## Kwitchit (Nov 16, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Kwitchit - We take the conversions one at a time in these threads to avoid confusion.  If you'd like to start a thread of your own, feel free, or we can add this to the request queue.



 OK, It's being deleted. Please put it in the queue.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks, and I'll add it to the queue.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

"There is a power in this being's hands that allows it to grab spells out of the air and negate them before they have time to function. Enceladus can grab up to four spells directed at him per melee round. If he does not grab spells, he can strike with his fists for 7-70 points of damage each. He can grab two spells with one hand and strike with the other, if he chooses."

note here that he can actually catch two spells in each hand each round (although I think you have that covered).  Note that the idea of throwing them back was probably an invention of mine - we can keep that in there, but if it is too troublesome I don't mind removing it.  

another idea of what we can do with this is a caster level check like with dispel magic?  Set him at a caster level equal to his CR maybe.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "There is a power in this being's hands that allows it to grab spells out of the air and negate them before they have time to function. Enceladus can grab up to four spells directed at him per melee round. If he does not grab spells, he can strike with his fists for 7-70 points of damage each. He can grab two spells with one hand and strike with the other, if he chooses."
> 
> note here that he can actually catch two spells in each hand each round (although I think you have that covered).  Note that the idea of throwing them back was probably an invention of mine - we can keep that in there, but if it is too troublesome I don't mind removing it.
> 
> another idea of what we can do with this is a caster level check like with dispel magic?  Set him at a caster level equal to his CR maybe.




I like your addition of tossing 'em back, and I think we'll get it to work.   The dispel check ain't a bad idea, either.  Let's try it...

Catch Spells (Su): As a free action usable on another creature's turn, Enceladus may attempt to catch spells directed at him. This functions similar to spell turning, except there is no limit to the number of spell levels he can catch, and the spell is not immediately redirected.  Additionally, Enceladus must succeed on a special dispel check (1d20 + Enceladus's CR) against the spell. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If he succeeds on the check, that spell is caught; if he fails, that spell functions normally.

For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to hold the spell and redirect it on his turn (losing a slam attack for every two spells redirected in such a manner), or he may choose to let the spell energy dissipate harmlessly, in which case he does not lose a slam attack. Enceladus may not catch more than four spells at a given time (two per hand). If Enceladus does not redirect the held spells on his next turn, the spell energy dissipates harmlessly. 

To redirect a spell, Enceladus "throws" it at a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

except i wouldn't call it a dispel check if he's only harnessing the energy.    can we say "caster level check" or something like that, and mean essentially the same thing?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

Whoa!  <bumps shoulders with guy entering forums, realizes its BOZ>  I wasn't expecting to see you so soon.    

Yeah, simply stating caster level check would be better.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

Heh.  

I like where you are going, but I think I need to rewrite some parts to make it clearer.  Let me know if I change anything that shouldn't be changed.

Catch Spells (Su): Enceladus is able to catch spell energy and hold it in his hands.  When a spell targets Enceladus, he may attempt to catch the spell as a free action.  Additionally, Enceladus must succeed on a special caster check (1d20 + 24) against the spell. The DC for this caster check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If he succeeds on the check, that spell is caught; if he fails, that spell functions normally.

Enceladus may hold up to two spells in each hand, and may not catch more than four spells per round.  For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to redirect it on his turn (losing a slam attack for every two spells redirected in such a manner). If Enceladus does not redirect the held spells on his next turn, the spell energy dissipates harmlessly. 

To redirect a spell, Enceladus "throws" it at a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.


For that last part, I'm thinking maybe... ranged touch attack to target a creature??


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Catch Spells (Su): Enceladus is able to catch spell energy and hold it in his hands.  When a spell targets Enceladus, he may attempt to catch the spell as a free action.  Additionally, Enceladus must succeed on a special caster check (1d20 + 24) against the spell. The DC for this caster check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If he succeeds on the check, that spell is caught; if he fails, that spell functions normally.
> 
> Enceladus may hold up to two spells in each hand, and may not catch more than four spells per round.  For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to redirect it on his turn *(losing a slam attack for every two spells redirected in such a manner)*. If Enceladus does not redirect the held spells on his next turn, the spell energy dissipates harmlessly.
> 
> ...




My only concern is with the bolded bit above...that could be interpreted as "he doesn't lose a slam attack if he only throws one spell".

A ranged touch attack probably makes the most sense.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> My only concern is with the bolded bit above...that could be interpreted as "he doesn't lose a slam attack if he only throws one spell".




You wrote that part.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> A ranged touch attack probably makes the most sense.




To redirect a spell, Enceladus makes a ranged touch attack against a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.

What should be the range?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> You wrote that part.




No wonder I'm concerned!    

(How can I word that better?)



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> To redirect a spell, Enceladus makes a ranged touch attack against a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.
> 
> What should be the range?




Looks good.  60 feet?


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

Rewrite this as you will:
Enceladus may redirect up to two spells by making a throwing motion towards the target, thus losing one of his slam attacks.  If Enceladus redirects more than two spells (up to a maximum of four), he loses both slam attacks.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

Actually, I think that looks fine.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

now, put it all together...


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

OK, here goes...

Catch Spells (Su): Enceladus is able to catch spell energy and hold it in his hands. When a spell targets Enceladus, he may attempt to catch the spell as a free action. Additionally, Enceladus must succeed on a special caster check (1d20 + 24) against the spell. The DC for this caster check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If he succeeds on the check, that spell is caught; if he fails, that spell functions normally.

Enceladus may hold up to two spells in each hand, and may not catch more than four spells per round. For each spell caught, Enceladus may choose to redirect it on his turn. If Enceladus does not redirect the held spells on his next turn, the spell energy dissipates harmlessly. 

To redirect a spell, Enceladus "throws" it at a target of his choice, following all the rules of the original spell for valid targets. The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster, for purposes of determining caster level, etc.

Enceladus may redirect up to two spells by making a throwing motion towards the target, thus losing one of his slam attacks. If Enceladus redirects more than two spells (up to a maximum of four), he loses both slam attacks.  The spell is treated exactly as if cast by the original caster (for purposes of determining caster level, etc.) and for determining valid targets (he cannot, for example, throw a charm person at an aberration).


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

"may attempt to catch the spell as a free action" - should that be, he "may automatically attempt to catch the spell"?

about time this fella ended up in homebrews...


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

That might be the way to go.   

Are we giving him rock throwing and catching?  I think we should.

If so, should we call it "spell catching" so it flows better with rock catching?


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

we can, but we don't have to.  that's kind of boring, predictable, and even stereotypical i figure.  we skipped it for Antaeus.  though, between the two, i could see Enceladus being more likely to use rocks.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

I think he needs it, as he has no other ranged attacks (unless he catches a spell).  Anty was more focused on wrestling, so it made sense in his case.  

It may be sterotypical, but it goes with giants like breath weapons go with dragons.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

and not all dragons have breath weapons.  

OK, rock catching... you really want him to have rock throwing huh?


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

But the majority do!  Yeah, I'd like him to have 'em.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

allright, i'm not as opposed to the idea as i seem to be.  

Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is X feet for Enceladus’s thrown rocks. He uses both hands when throwing a rock.

Rock Catching (Ex): Enceladus can catch Small, Medium, or Large rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, when Enceladus would normally be hit by a rock he can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) Enceladus must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2005)

"A giant of at least Large size can hurl rocks weighing 40 to 50 pounds each (Small objects) up to five range increments. The size of the range increment varies with the giant’s variety. A Huge giant can hurl rocks of 60 to 80 pounds (Medium objects)."

Using this progression, a Colossal Giant should be able to hurl rocks of up to Huge size, weighing I don't know, 200 to 400 pounds?


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2005)

Huge rocks?  what range increment?  

and what size of rocks should he be able to catch?


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## Mortis (Nov 18, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Huge rocks?



That's what I'd say   


> what range increment?



 140 feet?  



> and what size of rocks should he be able to catch?



Upto one size category than he can throw?
So Large?

[edit] Corrected mistype of range increment

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2005)

Here's how the range increments break down by type and size:

Fensir (Large):  120 ft.
Rakka (Huge):  120 ft.
Bog (Large):  120
Hill (Large): 120
Lesser Cyclops (Large): 120
Fog (Huge): 140
Stone (Huge): 180
Frost (Large):  120
Fire (Large):  120
Cloud (H): 140
Greater Cyclops (H): 140
Forest (H): 120
Firbolg (H): 130
Death (H): 120
Shadow (H): 120
Geriviar (H): 160
Ocean (H): 120
Mountain (C):  No range given.

The standard appears to be 120 for Large and 140 for Huge.  Although that's not much to go on to construct a formula, if we just assume 20 feet more for each size category, we'd have:

Gargantuan: 160 ft.
Colossal:  180 ft.


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## Mortis (Nov 18, 2005)

How about a nice round 200 feet. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2005)

That would be fine.

This sentence should be altered or removed from his combat description:  "If he notices a spellcaster preparing a spell to use against him, he will often hold back his actions to see if he can try to catch the spell."  He doesn't need to hold back his actions, as he doesn't lose his slam attacks until his next action.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 200 feet for Enceladus’s thrown rocks. He uses both hands when throwing a rock.  Enceladus can hurl rocks of X to X pounds (Huge objects).




300 to 500 pounds?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Rock Catching (Ex): Enceladus can catch Small, Medium, or Large rocks (or projectiles of similar shape). Once per round, when Enceladus would normally be hit by a rock he can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) Enceladus must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.




I'd allow him to catch Huge rocks as well...maybe DC 30?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Question: should he be able to catch spell-like abilities as well as spells?    or would the different way that they work be too much trouble?




Yeah, good idea!  The effects of spell-likes are generally identical spells...its the way they are "cast" that differs (essentially, no components necessary and shorter casting times in some instances).


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd allow him to catch Huge rocks as well...maybe DC 30?




That text for Rock Catching came straight from the MM - there doesn't appear to be any scaling allowed.  Of course, we can always rewrite things to suit our needs, especially when dealing with epic creatures.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

Yeah, let's scale it.  The only official giant bigger than Huge is the mountain giant, and they failed to account for his largeness.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

good deal.    updating in homebrews...


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

Weight 150 tons?  (Tarrasque weighs 130 at 70 feet long)

Otherwise, I think he's finished.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

i think Combat Reflexes might not be as appropriate a feat as i once thought in my younger days.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

I'd replace it with Epic Reflexes (+4 Ref save) or Epic Toughness (+30 hp).


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2005)

sounds good.  updating again.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2005)

Looks good.


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## Kwitchit (Nov 22, 2005)

Looks finished, then?


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## Mortis (Nov 29, 2005)

Kwitchit said:
			
		

> Looks finished, then?



Oh yeah!  And with the 'apparatus' moved to it's own thread it's time for the...

*Draeden*  

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

hold on - i would like to take a moment and put this thread officially ON HOLD until someone knows the full contents of issue #339.

sure, i doubt the draeden will be in there (though you never know), but it makes a nice excuse to take a break here anyway.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

d'oh - i didn't mean to suggest that we should stop the epic thread, just the mystara thread.    it was still early for me, and i got confused.  

so, we can always come back to the draeden later; got another request in the meantime?


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

We could tackle the Pasha of the Efreet that's queued up in the 1E Modules thread here, if it seems more appropriate.


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

which module again?  let me go look him up.


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

I4 - Oasis of the White Palm


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## BOZ (Nov 29, 2005)

OK, by popular demand (of Shade):  

Pasha of the Efreet, Vizier of the Fire Sultan

FREQUENCY: Unique out of six
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 24"/24"
HIT DICE: 101 hit points
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: H
NO. ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-20/2-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: 113
Attack/Defense Modes: A,B,E/F,G J

There are only six Pashas to the Sultan of the Efreet, each with its own dominion and wealth. They are Viziers to the Sultan and rarely leave the Elemental Plane of Fire save at his command. Nevertheless, they have a great deal of freedom of action and exercise that freedom by rampaging through the other planes of the universe from time to time.

These Pashas can perform the following spells at will as 15th level magic users: fireball, flame strike, wall of fire, invisibility, assume gaseous form, detect magic, enlarge, polymorph self, create illusion with both visual and aural effects; and fulfill another's wish although loath to do so. The Pashas of the Efreet may also travel at will instantly to any of the planes known to the Efreet. They are immune to all fire based attacks, magical or otherwise.


Originally found in module I4 - Oasis of the White Palm (1983, Philip Meyers and Tracy Hickman).


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## Shade (Nov 29, 2005)

Well, for starters, I think we should go for a target CR of 21, maybe 22.

Fully advancing an efreet (but not increasing its size) gives us...

Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 30d8+60 (195 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 18 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+40
Attack: Slam +35 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire)
Full Attack: 2 slams +35 melee (1d8+6 plus 1d6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Change size, heat, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold 
Saves: Fort +19, Ref +20, Will +19
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15
Challenge Rating: 18

Obviously, we'll want to beef up those stats, but that gives us something to start from.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

well, we want them to be even tougher than the toughest of efreet then, correct?  add a half dozen HD or even 10?  the ability scores will definitely need a boost as well.

your call if you want to involve psionics.  lots of high level outsiders had it back in the 1E days, and don't now.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Well, it looks like most CR 21-22 unique outsiders have HD in the range of 25-33, so we're probably good at 30.

How about:  Str 36, Dex 29, Con 26, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 25?

Let's skip psionics, as efreeti aren't usually associated with them.


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## Mortis (Nov 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, it looks like most CR 21-22 unique outsiders have HD in the range of 25-33, so we're probably good at 30.
> 
> How about:  Str 36, Dex 29, Con 26, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 25?
> 
> Let's skip psionics, as efreeti aren't usually associated with them.



What can I add except that I agree with all the above. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)



> These Pashas can perform the following spells at will as 15th level magic users: fireball, flame strike, wall of fire, invisibility, assume gaseous form, detect magic, enlarge, polymorph self, create illusion with both visual and aural effects; and fulfill another's wish although loath to do so. The Pashas of the Efreet may also travel at will instantly to any of the planes known to the Efreet. They are immune to all fire based attacks, magical or otherwise.




Change Size (Sp): X/times per day, a pasha can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like a enlarge person or reduce person spell (the pasha chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the pasha and other efreeti. A DC X Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Heat (Ex): A pasha’s red-hot body deals 1d6 (more?) points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic, fireball (DC X), flame strike (DC X), gaseous form, invisibility, permanent image (DC X), polymorph (self only) produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC X), scorching ray (X rays), wall of fire (DC X); 1/day(?)—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only). Caster level 15th(?). The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Plane Shift (Sp): A genie can enter any of the elemental planes, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane. This ability transports the genie and up to eight other creatures, provided they all link hands with the genie. It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name (caster level 13th).


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

that's all looking pretty good so far...


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

To summarize...

Pasha of the Efreet
Large Outsider (Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 30d8+240 (375 hp)
Initiative: +9
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: x (–1 size, +9 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+47
Attack: Slam +42 melee (x+13 plus xd6 fire)
Full Attack: 2 slams +42 melee (x+6 plus xd6 fire)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./ 10 ft.
Special Attacks: Change size, heat, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to fire, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft., vulnerability to cold 
Saves: Fort +25, Ref +26, Will +24
Abilities: Str 36, Dex 29, Con 26, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 25
Skills: 462 (efreet have Bluff, Craft [any one], Concentration , Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot)
Feats: 11, including Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray)
Environment: Elemental Plane of Fire
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: 21-22
Treasure: x
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: --

A Pasha of the Efreet stands about 12 feet tall and weighs about 2,000 pounds.

Efreet speak Auran, Common, Ignan, and Infernal.

Combat

Change Size (Sp): X/times per day, a pasha can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like a enlarge person or reduce person spell (the pasha chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the pasha and other efreeti. A DC X Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Heat (Ex): A pasha’s red-hot body deals 1d6 (more?) points of extra fire damage whenever it hits in melee, or in each round it maintains a hold when grappling.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—detect magic, fireball (DC X), flame strike (DC X), gaseous form, invisibility, permanent image (DC X), polymorph (self only) produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC X), scorching ray (X rays), wall of fire (DC X); 1/day(?)—grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only). Caster level 15th(?). The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Plane Shift (Sp): A genie can enter any of the elemental planes, the Astral Plane, or the Material Plane. This ability transports the genie and up to eight other creatures, provided they all link hands with the genie. It is otherwise similar to the spell of the same name (caster level 13th).


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

i had basically the same thing here.   i fixed some things you had right that i had wrong though.

AC should be at least 24 now - higher if we increase the natural armor.

not sure that we should need to change the base damage for a slam - if we did, this would be one of those rare instances where i would advocate using Improved Natural Attack to do so.  

the pashas' original stats allowed for 40% magic resistance.  also, these pashas were neutral for some reason instead of lawful evil like most efreet.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> AC should be at least 24 now - higher if we increase the natural armor.




Looking at the other CR 21-22 uniques, it needs to be in the 40-42 range.  That would call for +24 natural armor, which is a bit high compared to its "peers", who all benefit from an insight bonus.  (Which would make sense here, since they are advisors, IMHO).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not sure that we should need to change the base damage for a slam - if we did, this would be one of those rare instances where i would advocate using Improved Natural Attack to do so.




I was basing this off its 2-20 vs. the current 1d8.  Kharash the Stalker, CR 22, only deals 1d6 base with his claws, so 1d8 isn't a problem.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the pashas' original stats allowed for 40% magic resistance.  also, these pashas were neutral for some reason instead of lawful evil like most efreet.




I'd give 'em spell resistance equal to 9 + CR, then.   And I think they should be lawful evil like other efreet.  If it said "usually" rather than "always", I might think differently.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Looking at the other CR 21-22 uniques, it needs to be in the 40-42 range.  That would call for +24 natural armor, which is a bit high compared to its "peers", who all benefit from an insight bonus.  (Which would make sense here, since they are advisors, IMHO).




your call.    what say you?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I was basing this off its 2-20 vs. the current 1d8.  Kharash the Stalker, CR 22, only deals 1d6 base with his claws, so 1d8 isn't a problem.




1d8+13 would be 14-21 damage per hit.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd give 'em spell resistance equal to 9 + CR, then.   And I think they should be lawful evil like other efreet.  If it said "usually" rather than "always", I might think differently.




they were probably neutral because they were advisors.  i'm neutral towards their alignment.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> your call.    what say you?




+7 insight, +17 natural.  Final answer.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> 1d8+13 would be 14-21 damage per hit.




Perfecto!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> they were probably neutral because they were advisors.  i'm neutral towards their alignment.




I'm hateful and organized towards their alignment.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

well, fine then.    posting in homebrews!


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

Suggested SKill Ranks:  Bluff 33, Craft (any one) 33, Concentration 33, Intimidate 33, Knowledge (any 4) 33, Knowledge (the planes) 33,Listen 33, Move Silently 33, Sense Motive 33, Spellcraft 33, Spot 33

Suggested Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Empower Spell-Like Ability (fireball), Empower Spell-Like Ability (flame strike), Improved Initiative (B), Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray), Skill Focus (Knowledge [the planes], Spring Attack

Treasure: Double coins; triple goods; double items (normal efreet have Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; standard items)

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - detect magic, fireball (DC 20), flame strike (DC 22), gaseous form, invisibility, permanent image (DC 23), polymorph (self only) produce flame, pyrotechnics (DC 19), scorching ray (3 rays, +36 ranged touch), wall of fire (DC 21); 1/day(?) - grant up to three wishes (to nongenies only). Caster level 15th(?). The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

therefore:
Skills: Bluff +40, Craft (any one) +39, Concentration +41, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Intimidate +42, Knowledge (any 4) +39, Knowledge (the planes) +42, Listen +40, Move Silently +42, Sense Motive +40, Spellcraft +41, Spot +40


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2005)

And Jump +25, Survival +7 (+9 on other planes).

Note my edit of previous post to include spell-like DCs.


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## BOZ (Nov 30, 2005)

do efreeti actually have legs?    heh, i suppose they do...

OK, updating...


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2005)

In comparing it to other CR 21 and 22 uniques, it comes up rather short in the damage department.   I think we should bump the heat damage up significantly (a CR 20 balor's flaming body does 6d6, for example), which should help.   

Also, on second thought, I think we should ditch Combat Casting for either Improved Natural Attack (slam) or Improved Critical (slam).  It doesn't really need another +4 to its Concentration skill.

Another option:  Give 'em a magic weapon (falchion, probably).  That way it would get 4 attacks per round and ramp up its damage output significantly.

It also lacks in the defenses area.  The AC is good, but it has no DR, fast healing, or regeneration abilities like most of its peers.   I suppose it can just plane shift at will to escape.  We could also replace one of the Knowledge skills with Use Magic Device, granting it access to healing wands, etc.   It would also help assist the advisor role, letting 'em use scrying devices, etc.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2005)

well, basically, these guys are really just extra-advanced efreet.  treat them as such; start with the base creature, and add on until you meet your target CR.  

if increasing the heat damage sounds like a good idea (and it does), then go with it.  a magic weapon would be a good idea, as would giving them some defensive SQs.

Improved Natural Attack would add a little damage every time it hits, whereas Improved Critical would add a lot of damage every once in awhile.  think of it that way.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2005)

How about a +3 flaming burst unholy falchion?  (Most of the other CR 21-22 uniques actually have higher bonuses, but since these guys aren't exactly archfiends, I suggest a few less plusses.)

Improved Natural Attack sounds like the better option in this case.

How does 3d8 fire damage sound?  (Elder fire elementals do 2d8).

Fast healing 5?

Damage reduction 10/epic or 15/good?

How about a summon ability to call efreet?  Maybe 1d3 with 75% success?


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2005)

summoning ability - yeah, i think that is probably just fine.

as for the damage reduction, i'd be more inclined to go with good.

i agree with the rest of that just fine.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2005)

Homebrews update time?


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2005)

posting what i've got...


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2005)

Cool.    

Add Str and 1/2 to falchion (+19).

Change skills to Knowledge (any 3) +39, Spellcraft +39 (+41 scrolls), Use Magic Device +40 (+42 scrolls).  

Summon Efreet (Sp): Once per day a Pasha can attempt to summon 1d3 efreet with a 75% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

CR 22, and thus spell resistance 31 (22 + 9).

Change size 5/day?

Stick with wish 1/day.

Caster level 15th for SLAs OK?


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2005)

a caster level of 15 might be a little weak for a CR 22 character, but it depends on how well it balances with the rest of the stuff they now have.  it's not a bad CL for a character who is already powerful.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2005)

I just looked at all its CR 22 "peers", and I think we need to raise it to 20th.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2005)

fair enough!  i certainly wouldn't go higher than that though.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Nor would I.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

updating these guys in homebrews...


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Oops..we really dropped the ball on the attack lines with these fellas...

This should be...

+3 flaming burst unholy falchion +42/+37/+32/+27 melee (2d6+21 plus 1d6 fire/18-20 plus 1d10 fire)

At the very least it should have the +3 enhancement bonus to damage.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2005)

Save DC is 32 for Change Size.


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2005)

updating... whipped up a bit o' flavor text - feel free to add to it!


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2005)

For what it's worth, here's what the 3E MotP has to say about 'em:

"The City of Brass is populated by powerful efreet, and is considered by many efreet to be their home and their capital. Efreet may be found elsewhere on the Elemental Plane of Fire, but even far-flung settlements owe fealty and allegiance to teh grand sultan who rules the City of Brass from his burning palace. The grand sultan is said to be an efreeti of singular power and prowess, and is advised by all manner of maliks, beys, and emirs. His direct servants, both in the city and on the Material Plane, are six pashas of considerable power."

Expanding the efreeti's italicized description...

_This being looks like a mighty giant with brick-red skin, fiery eyes, small horns, and jutting tusks.  It wields a jet-black falchion wreathed in flame.  All manner of brass jewelry decorates its powerful frame, and a harness bristling with wands and other magical devices crosses its chest.  _ 

Combat

Like other efreet, Pashas love to mislead, befuddle, and confuse their foes, for their own amusement as well as a tactical advantage.  Although incredibly confident, a Pasha generally uses its summon efreet ability to open a battle, then relies on its magic while its allies shield it from immediate danger.  If drawn into melee, however, a Pasha fights with great gusto.  If at any point it believes it is in danger of being defeated, it uses its _plane shift _ ability to escape, returning at a more favorable time to complete its mission or exact revenge.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2005)

updating again, then.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2005)

It looks good!  Do we want to do their counterparts from the same module next  (Aeraldoth, vizier to Caliph of the Djinn)?


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2005)

um, i'd have to look at that again!


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Here's a few from Dragon better suited to the Epic thread:

230 - Zakhur Lifesbane the Guardian (Fire in the Five Peaks, Ed Stark)
248 - Vore Lekiniskiy "Master Fire Worm" (The Dragon of Vstaive Peak, Ed Stark)
260 - An-Ur the Wandering Death, Dhrakoth the Corruptor, Mordukhavar the Reaver, Medrinia, Xathanon, Vanathor the Golden Harpist (Spawn of Tiamat, Children of Bahamut, Keith Francis Strohm) [NOTE:  I've converted all these over in Homebrews.]


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

are any of those requests?


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2005)

Sure, I'd be up for any of 'em (although six of 'em would give me feelings of deja vu).


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## BOZ (Dec 6, 2005)

heh... i'll look into them.


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## Filby (Dec 7, 2005)

I think Lekiniskiy would be interesting for a few reasons, not least because it would be the first Birthright monster in the CC that I can think of.


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

there weren't an abundance of monsters in Birthright were there?  except for the really tough ones.  those were where i got the idea for the Scions from.


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## Filby (Dec 7, 2005)

There was actually a book full of them ("Blood Spawn" I think) that TSR published online, like the Red Steel setting. In the printed books, though, yeah... there couldn't have been more than two dozen non-unique monsters, tops. The majority were unique awnsheighlien.


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

that's the word - don't ask me how to spell that.  oh wait - awnsheighlien.   of course, copy 'n paste doesn't count...


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2005)

Vore works for me.


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## BOZ (Dec 7, 2005)

so let it be written...


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2006)

surprise!  

Vore Lekiniskiy, Master Fire Worm
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Vstaive Peak
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius (20)
TREASURE: Special
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -7
MOVEMENT: Special
HIT DICE: 25 (169 hp)
THAC0: 1 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 or special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12+10/1d12+10/2d10+10 or special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Fear aura, gaze, spells, invulnerability
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 75%
SIZE: G (exact size unknown)
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 28,000

Magically merged with the mountain known as Vstaive Peak, when Vore Lekiniskiy emerges, he only does so partially. His scaled skin is dotted with dirt, rock, and gems. White bone shows through patches where flesh has not completely returned, giving him the appearance of undeath. But Vore Lekiniskiy is alive, trapped in a madness of his own making.

Vore Lekiniskiy attacks using his foreclaws and bite, or he can execute any of the special attacks described in the "Dragon" entry of the MONSTROUS MANUAL™ tome except those that require flight or quick movement - Vore Lekiniskiy is tied to the mountain.

Combat: When Vore Lekiniskiy emerges from the mountainside, his head and either one or both of his claws rip free simultaneously. He may be able to free more of his body, but it is thought he cannot bring more than half of it out at any one time. He can attack with both his claws and his bite in the same round.

Vore's breath weapon is like the erupting of a volcano. It is not just fire - but lava and molten rock as well. Because of his tie to the mountain, Vore may use his fiery breath once every three rounds, but it causes him 10 hp internal damage for every blast beyond the first. His breath is a 30' cone that extends at its widest point to 15 feet. It inflicts 25d6+25 hp damage on anything within that area, though victims may attempt to save vs. breath weapon for half. Nonmagical and magical objects must save vs. magical fire or be instantly burned to a crisp. On the following round, anything or any creature within the path of Vore's breath weapon must make a saving throw again or be overcome by the lava that rushes down the mountainside (Vore is smart enough to never breathe uphill.)  The lava inflicts 15d6+15 hp damage to anything in a 15' wide area within 100 feet of Vore's snout.

Vore cannot hunt or move from the mountain, but he can emerge anywhere on the mountain in 2d4 rounds. He can retreat the same way and at the same pace. He can attack while retreating, but he usually retracts his head first, making his claw attacks at 4 until they return to the mountain.

Vore's gaze attack forces opponents to save vs. paralyzation at 4 or be paralyzed for 1d3 turns. He uses this to trap unwary trespassers so that he may occasionally feed (he grows hungrier as he wins free of the mountain). He seldom troubles with the power to automatically use geas, suggestion, or feeblemind on anyone trapped in his gaze, but this may change.

When Vore erupts from the mountainside, he causes an earthquake that forces everyone on the mountain to save vs. paralyzation or be thrown to the ground. The DM may allow modifiers to the saving throw based on how close the characters are to where Vore is erupting. Any character that sees Master Fire Worm ready for battle must save vs. spell at 4 or succumb to a fear spell.

Vore Lekiniskiy can cast wizard spells at the 20th level of ability and has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia. Recently, there is evidence that Vore has access to realm magic as well (see the BIRTHRIGHT Campaign Set), though this has yet to be confirmed. Fortunately, Vore seldom uses his magical energy to cast spells - he is too concerned with freeing himself from the mountain.

Ecology: Trapped in the mountainside, Vore Lekininskiy had forgotten about such things as "hunger" and "pain" for centuries. Now, he is remembering, and the dragon of Vstaive Peak grows increasingly frustrated with his existence. Chaotic evil in every way, this frustration could turn to mass destruction at any time.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> surprise!




Woo-hoo!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> HIT DICE: 25 (169 hp)
> SIZE: G (exact size unknown)




For starters, I'd argue that he's Colossal rather than Gargantuan.  Either way, 25 HD is too low nowadays.  I'd recommend modeling him after a red dragon.  In that case, we're looking at 28-37 HD for Gargantuan, or 38+ HD for Colossal.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Vore Lekiniskiy attacks using his foreclaws and bite, or he can execute any of the special attacks described in the "Dragon" entry of the MONSTROUS MANUAL™ tome except those that require flight or quick movement - Vore Lekiniskiy is tied to the mountain.




So I assume that means bite and claws and possibly tail slap and tail sweep, but rules out crush.  What about wing buffets?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Vore's breath weapon is like the erupting of a volcano. It is not just fire - but lava and molten rock as well. Because of his tie to the mountain, Vore may use his fiery breath once every three rounds, but it causes him 10 hp internal damage for every blast beyond the first. His breath is a 30' cone that extends at its widest point to 15 feet. It inflicts 25d6+25 hp damage on anything within that area, though victims may attempt to save vs. breath weapon for half. Nonmagical and magical objects must save vs. magical fire or be instantly burned to a crisp. On the following round, anything or any creature within the path of Vore's breath weapon must make a saving throw again or be overcome by the lava that rushes down the mountainside (Vore is smart enough to never breathe uphill.)  The lava inflicts 15d6+15 hp damage to anything in a 15' wide area within 100 feet of Vore's snout.




I'd advise changing the frequency to match that of other dragons (1d4 rounds).  We can look to the lava rules for the secondary effect.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Vore cannot hunt or move from the mountain, but he can emerge anywhere on the mountain in 2d4 rounds. He can retreat the same way and at the same pace. He can attack while retreating, but he usually retracts his head first, making his claw attacks at 4 until they return to the mountain.




Maybe we can mimic the meld into stone spell?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Vore's gaze attack forces opponents to save vs. paralyzation at 4 or be paralyzed for 1d3 turns. He uses this to trap unwary trespassers so that he may occasionally feed (he grows hungrier as he wins free of the mountain). He seldom troubles with the power to automatically use geas, suggestion, or feeblemind on anyone trapped in his gaze, but this may change.




Gaze (Su): Paralysis for 1d3 minutes, X feet, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> When Vore erupts from the mountainside, he causes an earthquake that forces everyone on the mountain to save vs. paralyzation or be thrown to the ground. The DM may allow modifiers to the saving throw based on how close the characters are to where Vore is erupting. Any character that sees Master Fire Worm ready for battle must save vs. spell at 4 or succumb to a fear spell.




Model after earthquake spell for the former, and frightful presence obviously for the latter.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Vore Lekiniskiy can cast wizard spells at the 20th level of ability and has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia. Recently, there is evidence that Vore has access to realm magic as well (see the BIRTHRIGHT Campaign Set), though this has yet to be confirmed. Fortunately, Vore seldom uses his magical energy to cast spells - he is too concerned with freeing himself from the mountain.




I think we should give him sorcerer spellcasting like most true dragons.

Other dragon traits to consider:


Damage reduction
Keen senses


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2006)

Note that his spell resistance is 10% better than a great wyrm red dragon in 2E.


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## Mortis (Oct 6, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note that his spell resistance is 10% better than a great wyrm red dragon in 2E.



That would translate to SR 34 or thereabouts.

Which would give a CR in the range 22-26 using the SR guidelines in the Conversion Notes thread.

Then again there's always the Epic feat Improved Spell Resistance - although that might be a waste of a feat.

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

before i get going on this guy... we should definitely not be gauging CR based on SR - if anything, we would do that the other way around.


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## BOZ (Oct 6, 2006)

what issue, article, and author was this from again?


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For starters, I'd argue that he's Colossal rather than Gargantuan. Either way, 25 HD is too low nowadays. I'd recommend modeling him after a red dragon. In that case, we're looking at 28-37 HD for Gargantuan, or 38+ HD for Colossal.



well, for a hint, 2E red dragon great wyrms had 23 HD, so obviously he's supposed to have more than them.  we could be consistent, and give it 42 HD which would be 2 more than a modern great wyrm red dragon.  



> Vore Lekiniskiy attacks using his foreclaws and bite, or he can execute any of the special attacks described in the "Dragon" entry of the MONSTROUS MANUAL™ tome except those that require flight or quick movement - Vore Lekiniskiy is tied to the mountain.







			
				Shade said:
			
		

> So I assume that means bite and claws and possibly tail slap and tail sweep, but rules out crush. What about wing buffets?




well, the Monstrous Manual lists claw/claw/bite routine (which is accounted for in the old stat block), as well as snatch, plummet (which is now crush), kick behind(which i think dragons no longer have), wing buffets, tail slap, and stop (which is now the Hover feat).  i'd say snatch and hover are right out.  i'd say tail slap/sweep are debatable since the dragon doesn't appear to move more than its front half outside the mountain.  wing buffet might actually work.



> Vore's breath weapon is like the erupting of a volcano. It is not just fire - but lava and molten rock as well. Because of his tie to the mountain, Vore may use his fiery breath once every three rounds, but it causes him 10 hp internal damage for every blast beyond the first. His breath is a 30' cone that extends at its widest point to 15 feet. It inflicts 25d6+25 hp damage on anything within that area, though victims may attempt to save vs. breath weapon for half. Nonmagical and magical objects must save vs. magical fire or be instantly burned to a crisp. On the following round, anything or any creature within the path of Vore's breath weapon must make a saving throw again or be overcome by the lava that rushes down the mountainside (Vore is smart enough to never breathe uphill.) The lava inflicts 15d6+15 hp damage to anything in a 15' wide area within 100 feet of Vore's snout.








			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd advise changing the frequency to match that of other dragons (1d4 rounds). We can look to the lava rules for the secondary effect.






> Vore cannot hunt or move from the mountain, but he can emerge anywhere on the mountain in 2d4 rounds. He can retreat the same way and at the same pace. He can attack while retreating, but he usually retracts his head first, making his claw attacks at 4 until they return to the mountain.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe we can mimic the meld into stone spell?



is that what he's doing, or is he moving through some sort of passageways in the mountain itself?



> Vore's gaze attack forces opponents to save vs. paralyzation at 4 or be paralyzed for 1d3 turns. He uses this to trap unwary trespassers so that he may occasionally feed (he grows hungrier as he wins free of the mountain). He seldom troubles with the power to automatically use geas, suggestion, or feeblemind on anyone trapped in his gaze, but this may change.







			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Gaze (Su): Paralysis for 1d3 minutes, X feet, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.



cool - are those other powers spell-like abilities, or examples of spells he should be able to cast?



> When Vore erupts from the mountainside, he causes an earthquake that forces everyone on the mountain to save vs. paralyzation or be thrown to the ground. The DM may allow modifiers to the saving throw based on how close the characters are to where Vore is erupting. Any character that sees Master Fire Worm ready for battle must save vs. spell at 4 or succumb to a fear spell.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Model after earthquake spell for the former, and frightful presence obviously for the latter.



or after actual earthquakes from the (IIRC) DMG.  might as well do frightful presence, since he is a dragon.  



> Vore Lekiniskiy can cast wizard spells at the 20th level of ability and has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia. Recently, there is evidence that Vore has access to realm magic as well (see the BIRTHRIGHT Campaign Set), though this has yet to be confirmed. Fortunately, Vore seldom uses his magical energy to cast spells - he is too concerned with freeing himself from the mountain.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think we should give him sorcerer spellcasting like most true dragons.



maybe so, but he "has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia"   which is something that sorcerers tend to lack.


			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Other dragon traits to consider:
> Damage reduction
> Keen senses



i don't have any good reason to say no.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> what issue, article, and author was this from again?




"Dragon of Vstaive Peak, The", Ed Stark, Dragon #248, p. 50



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, for a hint, 2E red dragon great wyrms had 23 HD, so obviously he's supposed to have more than them.  we could be consistent, and give it 42 HD which would be 2 more than a modern great wyrm red dragon.




That works for me.	 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, the Monstrous Manual lists claw/claw/bite routine (which is accounted for in the old stat block), as well as snatch, plummet (which is now crush), kick behind(which i think dragons no longer have), wing buffets, tail slap, and stop (which is now the Hover feat).  i'd say snatch and hover are right out.  i'd say tail slap/sweep are debatable since the dragon doesn't appear to move more than its front half outside the mountain.  wing buffet might actually work.




Actually, snatch would work.  All it really does is grant improved grab and constrict for bite and claw attacks, both of which Vore possesses.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> is that what he's doing, or is he moving through some sort of passageways in the mountain itself?




Dunno.  I assumed that "magically merged" and "can emerge anywhere on the mountain" seemed to imply something akin to meld into stone.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> cool - are those other powers spell-like abilities, or examples of spells he should be able to cast?




Whichever we'd prefer, I suppose.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> or after actual earthquakes from the (IIRC) DMG.  might as well do frightful presence, since he is a dragon.




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> maybe so, but he "has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia"   which is something that sorcerers tend to lack.




I'm not real familiar with Birthright's spell selection...any ideas?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Oct 10, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Actually, snatch would work.  All it really does is grant improved grab and constrict for bite and claw attacks, both of which Vore possesses.




hmm... i think what i meant to say was "crush and hover are right out"  

so, we'll give him claw/claw/bite routine, snatch feat, and wing buffets?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Dunno.  I assumed that "magically merged" and "can emerge anywhere on the mountain" seemed to imply something akin to meld into stone.




i'll re-read it to be sure, but i guess we can go with that.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not real familiar with Birthright's spell selection...any ideas?




i'm not particularly familiar with them myself.    i guess i'll have to go look that up.  not sure how important it is, though.  i'd defeinitely leave out Realm magic, as that is a whole new can of worms.  

*Vore Lekiniskiy, Master Fire Worm*
Colossal Dragon (Fire?)
Hit Dice: 42d12+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: X ft
Armor Class: X (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat- footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +42/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (X) and 2 claws +X melee (X)
Space/Reach: 30 ft/30 ft
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, frightful presence, gaze, spells
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/X, darkvision 120? ft, immunity to sleep and paralysis, low-light vision, spell resistance X, "Invulnerability"
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 15 Snatch

Environment: Vstaive Peak
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Chaotic evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

COMBAT

Gaze (Su): Paralysis for 1d3 minutes, X feet, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Originally found in Dragon Magazine #248 ("The Dragon of Vstaive Peak," June 1998, Ed Stark).


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2006)

A Colossal great wyrm red dragon has the following ability scores:

Str 45, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 26 

I figure Vore should be comparable.

Great wyrm red dragons have +39 natural armor, DR 20/magic, and deal 24d10 damage with their breath weapons.

I think Vore should have both the Earth and Fire subtypes.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 3, 2006)

OK, since we had decided to go with the "just a bit more powerful than a red dragon", we can bump most of that up just a bit.  

agreed on the subtypes, and with Earth only so because he has been merged with the mountain for so long.


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2006)

> Vore's breath weapon is like the erupting of a volcano. It is not just fire - but lava and molten rock as well. Because of his tie to the mountain, Vore may use his fiery breath once every three rounds, but it causes him 10 hp internal damage for every blast beyond the first. His breath is a 30' cone that extends at its widest point to 15 feet. It inflicts 25d6+25 hp damage on anything within that area, though victims may attempt to save vs. breath weapon for half. Nonmagical and magical objects must save vs. magical fire or be instantly burned to a crisp. On the following round, anything or any creature within the path of Vore's breath weapon must make a saving throw again or be overcome by the lava that rushes down the mountainside (Vore is smart enough to never breathe uphill.) The lava inflicts 15d6+15 hp damage to anything in a 15' wide area within 100 feet of Vore's snout.






			
				DMG said:
			
		

> Lava Effects
> Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.
> 
> Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round).
> ...






			
				transmute rock to lava spell said:
			
		

> You transform natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of red-hot molten lava. All creatures in the spell's area who make successful Reflex saves take 6d6 points of fire damage provided they can physically escape the area on their next turn. Creatures that fail their saves, or those unable to escape the area, take 20d6 points of fire damage in each round they remain in the area. Creatures in the lava have their speed reduced to 5 feet and take a -2 penalty on attack rolls to Armor Class. Even after leaving the area of the spell, creatures that were exposed to the lava take half damage (either 3d6 or 10d6) for an additional 1 additional round.




Attempt #1...

Breath Weapon (Su): Vore Lekiniskiy has one type of breath weapon, a 60-foot cone of magma usable once every 1d4 rounds. This attack deals 25d10 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half).  Additionally, damage from this magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during initial contact.  

Additionally, the lava lingers for X rounds thereafter, moving away from Vore at X feet per round.  Any creature caught in the lava's area must attempt a DC X Reflex save; success indicates that the creature takes 6d6 points of fire damage provided it can physically escape the area on its next turn. Creatures that fail their saves, or those unable to escape the area, take 20d6 points of fire damage in each round they remain in the area. Creatures in the lava have their speed reduced to 5 feet and take a -2 penalty on attack rolls to Armor Class. Even after leaving the area of the spell, creatures that were exposed to the lava take half damage (either 3d6 or 10d6) for 1 additional round.   The save DCs are Constitution-based.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Attempt #1...
> 
> Breath Weapon (Su): Vore Lekiniskiy has one type of breath weapon, a 60-foot cone of magma usable once every 1d4 rounds. This attack deals 25d10 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half).  Additionally, damage from this magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during initial contact.
> 
> Additionally, the lava lingers for X rounds thereafter, moving away from Vore at X feet per round.  Any creature caught in the lava's area must attempt a DC X Reflex save; success indicates that the creature takes 6d6 points of fire damage provided it can physically escape the area on its next turn. Creatures that fail their saves, or those unable to escape the area, *take 20d6 points * of fire damage in each round they remain in the area. Creatures in the lava have their speed reduced to 5 feet and take a -2 penalty on attack rolls to Armor Class. Even after leaving the area of the spell, creatures that were exposed to the lava take half damage (either 3d6 or 10d6) for 1 additional round.   The save DCs are Constitution-based.




Personally I think the 20d6 may be a little too severe - it is based on a creature being completely immersed in the lava rather than being in an area of lava up to his ankles etc.

But, hey, its an epic creature. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Personally I think the 20d6 may be a little too severe - it is based on a creature being completely immersed in the lava rather than being in an area of lava up to his ankles etc.
> 
> But, hey, its an epic creature.




You're right...that's probably too severe.   I guess what we need to decide (and to clarify in the text) is how much lava we're talking about exactly.  Is it just an "up to their ankles" bit, or is it a big wave.  Either way, it should definetely be less than total immersion.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 9, 2006)

*RE: Effects of the lava*



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Breath Weapon (Su): Vore Lekiniskiy has one type of breath weapon, a 60-foot cone of magma usable once every 1d4 rounds. This attack deals 25d10 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half).  Additionally, damage from this magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during initial contact.



Maybe if we base it on the original 25d10 damage, but a percentage - say 50% or rounding down to 12d6 or even 25% (6d6).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Maybe if we base it on the original 25d10 damage, but a percentage - say 50% or rounding down to 12d6 or even 25% (6d6).




If we stick with 6d6 for a successful save, then 12d6 seems reasonable.


----------



## Qwillion (Nov 14, 2006)

Some how it keeps poping into my head that he is consistant with a gold dragon

I would probably make him Colossal+ since your going epic you might as well use it. If he is equivalent to an advanced great wyrm red with one vitual age catagory it would work well. 

I would make the extra lava damage consistant with the lingering damage breath weapon feats. (I am at work so not sure, but i think that is what you have here).  

In away him being part of the mountain reminds me of a dragon enslaved by a Genis Loci 

As to the spells to keep consistant with the change from 2e to 3.5, I would use the sorcerer progression, he should have access to clerical spells as well as chaotic, evil and earth domains.  He could use limited wish to switch out his known spells.

Random thoughts:  or perhaps he just advanced as a wizard rather than a sorcerer, get really crazy make him an arcana evolved magister


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 20, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> A Colossal great wyrm red dragon has the following ability scores:
> 
> Str 45, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 26
> 
> ...




hmm, i ought to have settled this awhile ago, shouldn't i?  

let's see...  if we age a red dragon by one more category, we get something like:

Str 49, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 28, Wis 29, Cha 28

+42 natural armor

how's that?


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2006)

That'll work.


----------



## Qwillion (Nov 20, 2006)

works for me


----------



## Mortis (Nov 20, 2006)

Regarding the lava breath weapon, there's a spell in the Complete Mage that we may be able to adapt. 

I forgot to be the book to work, so I'll post the relevant bits tomorrow.

It basically does XdX of fire damage and covered the targets in lava that does more fire damage and also slows the targets for three rounds.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 20, 2006)

that's definitely got some promise.


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2006)

I believe that's the same transmute rock to lava spell I posted upthread (post #1104).  It may have changed a little upon transitioning into Spell Compendium.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 21, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I believe that's the same transmute rock to lava spell I posted upthread (post #1104).  It may have changed a little upon transitioning into Spell Compendium.



IIRC, and I forgot to check last night, (I was working 'til 8pm, then a hour or so travelling home, something to eat, bed  ) its an attack spell that sprays a cone of lava at the target(s).

I'll definitely check TONIGHT 

Regards
Mortis


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## Qwillion (Nov 21, 2006)

Ok one age catagory is +3 HD
so HD would be 43 not 42

from the epic srd advanced dragons
Ability Scores
A great wyrm’s Strength and Constitution scores both increase by +2 for every virtual age category the dragon gains. Its Dexterity remains unchanged. Its Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma increase by +2 for every two age categories the dragon gains. 

so by that ti would be
str 47  dex 10  con33  int 26 wis 27  cha 26


----------



## BOZ (Nov 21, 2006)

i'm too lazy to change all that.    besides, i'm fine with how it is.  Vore's not *actually* an advanced red dragon, we were just making a comparison for a rough estimate of how he should be.

*sigh* as for his powers, i'll see if i can find the time to look at that again today...


----------



## Qwillion (Nov 21, 2006)

I am fine with how it is too (just pointing out the error), personally I wanted to make him collassal +, which would require 3 virtual age catagories.


Oh and why would it take anytime all you do is plug the #s into the computer and it spits out a new answer (unless your doing this all by hand, ugh, me like stat calculator)


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 21, 2006)

by hand, yeah.    but i don't want to change the stats - being "imperfect" works just as well for me.


----------



## Qwillion (Nov 21, 2006)

By hand   ugh try

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/shadows/Handbook/MonsterCalc.html

or even

http://www.kencyclopedia.com/kender/monstergenerator/Step1-GeneralDescription.cfm


the first does not deal with multiple attacks or weapon attacks

the second is very rigid in it's flexablity and is better for low level monsters. 

Still better than doing it by hand


----------



## BOZ (Nov 22, 2006)

that's OK - i prefer working by hand, because i have more control over the format then. i wouldn't mind having something to check my calculations, but we have more than one set of eyes going over them, so i'm fairly confident that they're OK.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 22, 2006)

Here's that spell I mentioned.

DEADLY LAHAR
Conjuration [Earth, Fire]
Level: Druid 8, sorcerer/wizard 8, wu jen 8 (earth and fire)
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Cone-shaped spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex partial
Spell Resistance: No

A rushing torrent of liquid rock bursts from the ground, washing over your foes.

You create a liquid landslide of molten-hot volcanic material. All creatures in the area of the spell take 10d6 points of fire damage. Additionally, those creatures are coated in a thick layer of the viscous substance, slowing them (as the slow spell) for the next 3 rounds and dealing an additional 5d6 points of fire damage per round. A successful Reflex save reduces the initial damage by half and prevents the slow effect and the additional damage.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 22, 2006)

OK, Shade already did something like this above, but I’m going to re-dissect some of the aspects of this guy, so that we can move discussion forward.  



			
				Dragon #248 said:
			
		

> NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 or special
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12+10/1d12+10/2d10+10 or special




So, claws were 1d12 base and bite was 2d10 base.  Now, of course, the damage bonus for the bite would be +19 and the claws would be +9.  the base damages could go a little higher than that of a standard dragon.

***



			
				DR 248 said:
			
		

> Magically merged with the mountain known as Vstaive Peak, when Vore Lekiniskiy emerges, he only does so partially.
> 
> Vore Lekiniskiy attacks using his foreclaws and bite, or he can execute any of the special attacks described in the "Dragon" entry of the MONSTROUS MANUAL™ tome except those that require flight or quick movement - Vore Lekiniskiy is tied to the mountain.
> 
> ...




OK, I’m thinking more along the lines of limiting his physical attacks to just claw and bite, plus things like the Snatch feat.  As for his speed, I think that should be 0 technically, but he should have a Su ability that allows him to appear anywhere on the mountain and takes 2d4 rounds (maybe or maybe not provoking AoOs).  Shade suggested mimicking the meld into stone spell for part of this effect.



			
				Qwillion said:
			
		

> In away him being part of the mountain reminds me of a dragon enslaved by a Genis Loci




***



			
				DR 248 said:
			
		

> He seldom troubles with the power to automatically use geas, suggestion, or feeblemind on anyone trapped in his gaze, but this may change.




Make these SLAs?

***



			
				DR 248 said:
			
		

> When Vore erupts from the mountainside, he causes an earthquake that forces everyone on the mountain to save vs. paralyzation or be thrown to the ground. The DM may allow modifiers to the saving throw based on how close the characters are to where Vore is erupting.




Shade suggested we could model this, in part, after the earthquake spell.  We can also use some of the information on earthquakes in the DMG.

***



			
				DR 248 said:
			
		

> Any character that sees Master Fire Worm ready for battle must save vs. spell at 4 or succumb to a fear spell.




Frightful Presence (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy can unsettle foes with his mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever Vore (attacks, charges, or leaps overhead?). Creatures within a radius of (240?) feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than Vore. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC X Will save (remains immune to Vore's frightful presence for 24 hours. – keep this part?) (On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. – keep this effect or substitute with another one?  What’s the equivalent to the 2E fear spell?) Vore ignores the frightful presence of other draconic creatures.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

***

We’ll worry about his spell casting later after the rest of this stuff is ready to go.    that part might get pretty involved, but the rest of this should be resolved with more ease.


----------



## Shade (Nov 26, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> So, claws were 1d12 base and bite was 2d10 base.  Now, of course, the damage bonus for the bite would be +19 and the claws would be +9.  the base damages could go a little higher than that of a standard dragon.




For true dragons:
Bite/Claws 
Gargantuan 4d6/2d8 
Colossal 4d8/4d6 

If he's Gargantuan, we can just go with Colossal damage.  If he's Colossal, we could go with Colossal+ (8d6/4d8)



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, I’m thinking more along the lines of limiting his physical attacks to just claw and bite, plus things like the Snatch feat.  As for his speed, I think that should be 0 technically, but he should have a Su ability that allows him to appear anywhere on the mountain and takes 2d4 rounds (maybe or maybe not provoking AoOs).  Shade suggested mimicking the meld into stone spell for part of this effect.




I could still see tail slap (although probably not sweep).   I think he should have at least a small land speed to "crawl forth a bit"...but we could limit his movement to prevent him from leaving the mountain.   We could also give him something akin to earth glide, but it only allows travel with his mountain.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Make these SLAs?




Either that or part of his spells known list.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Shade suggested we could model this, in part, after the earthquake spell.  We can also use some of the information on earthquakes in the DMG.




Yep, both could be useful.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Frightful Presence (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy can unsettle foes with his mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever Vore (attacks, charges, or leaps overhead?). Creatures within a radius of (240?) feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than Vore. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC X Will save (remains immune to Vore's frightful presence for 24 hours. – keep this part?) (On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. – keep this effect or substitute with another one?  What’s the equivalent to the 2E fear spell?) Vore ignores the frightful presence of other draconic creatures.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




Attacks works. He probably can't charge or leap overhead.   I'd keep the 24 hour thing.  I'd keep it as close to other true dragons as possible.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

I’ll give him a tail slap, but that’s an “or” attack, rather than an “and” (since he can’t put more than one half of his body out at a time).

The land speed is debatable, but really only necessary if we give him an earth glide type of ability (possibly mixing with meld into stone).

Frightful Presence (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy can unsettle foes with his mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever Vore attacks. Creatures within a radius of (240?) feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than Vore. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC X Will save remains immune to Vore's frightful presence for 24 hours. (On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. – keep this effect or substitute with another one? What’s the equivalent to the 2E fear spell?) Vore ignores the frightful presence of other draconic creatures. The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I’ll give him a tail slap, but that’s an “or” attack, rather than an “and” (since he can’t put more than one half of his body out at a time).




That'll work.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> The land speed is debatable, but really only necessary if we give him an earth glide type of ability (possibly mixing with meld into stone).




We shall debate it once that decision has been made, then.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Frightful Presence (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy can unsettle foes with his mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever Vore attacks. Creatures within a radius of (240?) feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than Vore. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC X Will save remains immune to Vore's frightful presence for 24 hours. (On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. – keep this effect or substitute with another one? What’s the equivalent to the 2E fear spell?) Vore ignores the frightful presence of other draconic creatures. The save DC is Charisma-based.




I don't have the 2E fear spell handy, but I see no reason to differ from other dragons on the parenthetical parts.   240 ft. for the radius works for me.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

it was a 4th-level wizard spell.

Fear 
(Illusion/Phantasm)
Range: 0			Components: V, S, M
Duration: Special		Casting Time: 4
Area of Effect: 60-ft. cone,	Saving Throw: Neg.
	30-ft. diameter at end, 5-ft. at base

	When a fear spell is cast, the wizard sends forth an invisible cone of terror that causes creatures within its area of effect to turn away from the caster and flee in panic. Affected creatures are likely to drop whatever they are holding when struck by the spell; the base chance of this is 60% at 1st level (or at 1 Hit Die), and each level (or Hit Die) above this reduces the probability by 5%. Thus, at 10th level there is only a 15% chance, and at 13th level no chance, of dropping items. Creatures affected by fear flee at their fastest rate for a number of melee rounds equal to the level of experience of the spellcaster. Undead and creatures that successfully roll their saving throws vs. spell are not affected.
	The material component of this spell is either the heart of a hen or a white feather.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Essentially, it creates the panicked condition.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

hmm, indeed!  so then i guess the only thing that remains is if we want to keep the "creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds" as-is, or change those numeric values around a bit.



			
				Dragon #248 said:
			
		

> Any character that sees Master Fire Worm ready for battle must save vs. spell at 4 or succumb to a fear spell.




i'm assuming that meant to say "at -4", which also suggests Ability Focus to me.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, indeed!  so then i guess the only thing that remains is if we want to keep the "creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds" as-is, or change those numeric values around a bit.




I'd keep that bit.  Even epic dragons follow those same parameters.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm assuming that meant to say "at -4", which also suggests Ability Focus to me.




Sure, or a racial bonus, or a combination of the two.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 27, 2006)

i'll at least keep the feat in there, which yields:

Frightful Presence (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy can unsettle foes with his mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever Vore attacks. Creatures within a radius of 240 feet are subject to the effect if they have fewer HD than Vore. A potentially affected creature that succeeds on a DC 42 Will save remains immune to Vore's frightful presence for 24 hours. On a failure, creatures with 4 or less HD become panicked for 4d6 rounds and those with 5 or more HD become shaken for 4d6 rounds. Vore ignores the frightful presence of other draconic creatures. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Looks good.  Shall we tackle the breath weapon next?



> Vore's breath weapon is like the erupting of a volcano. It is not just fire - but lava and molten rock as well. Because of his tie to the mountain, Vore may use his fiery breath once every three rounds, but it causes him 10 hp internal damage for every blast beyond the first. His breath is a 30' cone that extends at its widest point to 15 feet. It inflicts 25d6+25 hp damage on anything within that area, though victims may attempt to save vs. breath weapon for half. Nonmagical and magical objects must save vs. magical fire or be instantly burned to a crisp. On the following round, anything or any creature within the path of Vore's breath weapon must make a saving throw again or be overcome by the lava that rushes down the mountainside (Vore is smart enough to never breathe uphill.) The lava inflicts 15d6+15 hp damage to anything in a 15' wide area within 100 feet of Vore's snout.






			
				DMG said:
			
		

> Lava Effects
> Lava or magma deals 2d6 points of damage per round of exposure, except in the case of total immersion (such as when a character falls into the crater of an active volcano), which deals 20d6 points of damage per round.
> 
> Damage from magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during actual contact (that is, 1d6 or 10d6 points per round).
> ...






			
				transmute rock to lava spell said:
			
		

> You transform natural, uncut or unworked rock of any sort into an equal volume of red-hot molten lava. All creatures in the spell's area who make successful Reflex saves take 6d6 points of fire damage provided they can physically escape the area on their next turn. Creatures that fail their saves, or those unable to escape the area, take 20d6 points of fire damage in each round they remain in the area. Creatures in the lava have their speed reduced to 5 feet and take a -2 penalty on attack rolls to Armor Class. Even after leaving the area of the spell, creatures that were exposed to the lava take half damage (either 3d6 or 10d6) for an additional 1 additional round.




Attempt #1...

Breath Weapon (Su): Vore Lekiniskiy has one type of breath weapon, a 60-foot cone of magma usable once every 1d4 rounds. This attack deals 25d10 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half).  Additionally, damage from this magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during initial contact.  

Additionally, the lava lingers for X rounds thereafter, moving away from Vore at X feet per round.  Any creature caught in the lava's area must attempt a DC X Reflex save; success indicates that the creature takes 6d6 points of fire damage provided it can physically escape the area on its next turn. Creatures that fail their saves, or those unable to escape the area, take 20d6 points of fire damage in each round they remain in the area. Creatures in the lava have their speed reduced to 5 feet and take a -2 penalty on attack rolls to Armor Class. Even after leaving the area of the spell, creatures that were exposed to the lava take half damage (either 3d6 or 10d6) for 1 additional round.   The save DCs are Constitution-based.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Personally I think the 20d6 may be a little too severe - it is based on a creature being completely immersed in the lava rather than being in an area of lava up to his ankles etc.
> 
> But, hey, its an epic creature.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> You're right...that's probably too severe.   I guess what we need to decide (and to clarify in the text) is how much lava we're talking about exactly.  Is it just an "up to their ankles" bit, or is it a big wave.  Either way, it should definetely be less than total immersion.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Maybe if we base it on the original 25d10 damage, but a percentage - say 50% or rounding down to 12d6 or even 25% (6d6).






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> If we stick with 6d6 for a successful save, then 12d6 seems reasonable.






			
				Qwillion said:
			
		

> I would make the extra lava damage consistant with the lingering damage breath weapon feats. (I am at work so not sure, but i think that is what you have here).






			
				Lingering Breath Feat from Draconomicon said:
			
		

> Your breath weapon has its normal effects, but also remains as a lingering cloud of the same shape and size as the original breath weapon. The cloud lasts 1 round.
> 
> Foes caught in the breath weapon's area when you breathe take no additional damage from the lignering breath weapon, provided they leave the cloud by the shortest available route on their next turn. Otherwise, anyone who touches or enters the cloud while it lasts takes one-half of the breath weapon's normal effects; any saving throw the breath weapon normally allows still applies. Damaging breath weapons deal one-half their normal damage, and breath weapons with effects that have durations last for half the normal time. If a creature is affected by the same non-damaging breath weapon twice, the effects do not stack.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Here's that spell I mentioned.
> 
> DEADLY LAHAR
> Conjuration [Earth, Fire]
> ...


----------



## Mortis (Nov 28, 2006)

*RE: Breath Weapon*

Did you see this post?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Did you see this post?is




Yep, I was still editing.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 28, 2006)

Heh, actually I had a big post prepared for this issue, but Shade got most of it for me.    here’s what’s left:

The issue of his breath weapon was big enough that I felt like keeping it to a separate post.  

First of all, Shade suggested changing the frequency to 1d4 to match other dragons.  

and, well, then, everything else that Shade just posted.  

P.S., posted in homebrews last night.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

Checked out homebrews while giving other folks a chance to respond on the breath weapon:

Tail slap should be 4d8.

Damage reduction 15/epic is about comparable to epic dragons of its Hit Dice.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Nov 29, 2006)

i'll print that part out and take a look at it when i get the chance.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 1, 2006)

and, so done!

First of all, the breath weapon format taken from the MM, for reference:

Breath Weapon (Su): 30-foot cone?, once every 1d4 rounds, damage (energy or effect), Reflex DC X half (or Fortitude DC X negates). The save DC is Constitution-based.
(see behir, chimera, dragons, dragon turtle, frost worm, iron golem, gorgon, hellhound, cryohydra and pyrohydra, mephits, winter wolf)

Do we want to incorporate this part? “it causes him 10 hp internal damage for every blast beyond the first.”

Note that the original description says “a 30' cone that extends at its widest point to 15 feet”, but I don’t know how that works in 3.5 for a Colossal dragon.

Should we put in a note about unattended objects, or should that be assumed by a DM anyway? “Nonmagical and magical objects must save vs. magical fire or be instantly burned to a crisp.”

“On the following round, anything or any creature within the path of Vore's breath weapon must make a saving throw again or be overcome by the lava that rushes down the mountainside”  - OK, it does not specify how many rounds the lava lasts, so that will be up to our interpretation. All it says is that creatures take damage on the round following the breath, not whether the lava lingers beyond that second round.

“The lava inflicts 15d6+15 hp damage to anything in a 15' wide area within 100 feet of Vore's snout.”  It took me a second to think of what this meant, but I think I get it now.  since the breath weapon in 2E was 15-feet wide, essentially the lava would trail down the side of the mountain in a 15-foot “line” and go for 100 feet before stopping.

Perhaps, then, we could say the lava keeps moving until it reaches 100 feet.  If it moves X feet per round, then the duration would be 100 divided by X.


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Do we want to incorporate this part? “it causes him 10 hp internal damage for every blast beyond the first.”



Personally, I vote no - in a strange way it might mean that his insides don't have the fire subtype and that could cause all sorts of problems if he swallowed a wizard. 



> Note that the original description says “a 30' cone that extends at its widest point to 15 feet”, but I don’t know how that works in 3.5 for a Colossal dragon.



The standard cone for a colossal dragon is 70'. All(?) cones in 3.5 are as wide as they are long.



> Should we put in a note about unattended objects, or should that be assumed by a DM anyway? “Nonmagical and magical objects must save vs. magical fire or be instantly burned to a crisp.”



Well, novice DM's shouldn't be doing Epic, but I'd put a note in anyway.



> Perhaps, then, we could say the lava keeps moving until it reaches 100 feet.  If it moves X feet per round, then the duration would be 100 divided by X.



Could work, will we need to state 'downhill'? what happens on the flat - does it just cover the 3 squares in front of the creature and not move.

If we were dealing with real life the lava's speed would be influenced by the degree of inclination of the slope - the steeper the slope the faster the movement rate, but as this is DnD I'd suggest either 20 or 25 which means its around for 5 or 4 rounds respectively.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Personally, I vote no - in a strange way it might mean that his insides don't have the fire subtype and that could cause all sorts of problems if he swallowed a wizard.




Agreed.  I want no part of that.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> The standard cone for a colossal dragon is 70'. All(?) cones in 3.5 are as wide as they are long.




Yep, go with that or 80 ft. like Colossal+.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Well, novice DM's shouldn't be doing Epic, but I'd put a note in anyway.




Agreed.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Could work, will we need to state 'downhill'? what happens on the flat - does it just cover the 3 squares in front of the creature and not move.




Maybe state that once it ceases to be able to descend, it stops immediately?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> If we were dealing with real life the lava's speed would be influenced by the degree of inclination of the slope - the steeper the slope the faster the movement rate, but as this is DnD I'd suggest either 20 or 25 which means its around for 5 or 4 rounds respectively.




20 feet sounds good.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Personally, I vote no - in a strange way it might mean that his insides don't have the fire subtype and that could cause all sorts of problems if he swallowed a wizard.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed.  I want no part of that.




Well, I wasn’t actually thinking that he’d take fire damage, but more like that the act itself of hurling up the lava was what damaged his insides.  Maybe some soreness to his internal organs from the force of spewing that much stuff out.  Maybe he’d take some acid damage like he has GERD or something.     I don’t know though, I’m not in love with the idea, just putting it out there.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> The standard cone for a colossal dragon is 70'. All(?) cones in 3.5 are as wide as they are long.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yep, go with that or 80 ft. like Colossal+.




Okie dokie, whatever you think is right.  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Well, novice DM's shouldn't be doing Epic, but I'd put a note in anyway.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed.




LOL.  OK – how (if at all) do breath weapons normally handle the idea of damaging unattended objects?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Could work, will we need to state 'downhill'? what happens on the flat - does it just cover the 3 squares in front of the creature and not move.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe state that once it ceases to be able to descend, it stops immediately?




For one thing, Vore will never be encountered on a flat surface, since he can only come out the side of the mountain.  However, say he comes out 10 feet above the surface.  Then, of course, his spew will not be flowing downwards the whole time.  We could do as you say for that situation maybe.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> If we were dealing with real life the lava's speed would be influenced by the degree of inclination of the slope - the steeper the slope the faster the movement rate, but as this is DnD I'd suggest either 20 or 25 which means its around for 5 or 4 rounds respectively.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 20 feet sounds good.




OK then, 20 feet per round, and moves for 5 rounds.    that gives it the 100’ coverage of the original, but will be considerably wider since the cone itself is wider.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, I wasn’t actually thinking that he’d take fire damage, but more like that the act itself of hurling up the lava was what damaged his insides.  Maybe some soreness to his internal organs from the force of spewing that much stuff out.  Maybe he’d take some acid damage like he has GERD or something.     I don’t know though, I’m not in love with the idea, just putting it out there.




Put it back before you hurt someone.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Okie dokie, whatever you think is right.




I'm fine with either, but we've gone the Colossal+ router on the rest of the abilities that apply.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> LOL.  OK – how (if at all) do breath weapons normally handle the idea of damaging unattended objects?




Just like spells...the energy type should affect anything in the area unless note otherwise.  However, only things that specifically say that they alight combusibles do so.  Otherwise, its just fire damage.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For one thing, Vore will never be encountered on a flat surface, since he can only come out the side of the mountain.  However, say he comes out 10 feet above the surface.  Then, of course, his spew will not be flowing downwards the whole time.  We could do as you say for that situation maybe.




You are correct, sir.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK then, 20 feet per round, and moves for 5 rounds.    that gives it the 100’ coverage of the original, but will be considerably wider since the cone itself is wider.




Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

i'm fine with objects just taking fire damage.  

as for the cone size, we might as well go with what makes the most sense.  if that's 80, then so be it.

OK, here is what we've got so far.  What changes should be made to it based upon what we've discussed?

Breath Weapon (Su): Vore Lekiniskiy has one type of breath weapon, a X-foot cone of magma usable once every 1d4 rounds. This attack deals 25d10 points of fire damage (Reflex DC 42 half). Additionally, damage from this magma continues for 1d3 rounds after exposure ceases, but this additional damage is only half of that dealt during initial contact. 

Additionally, the lava lingers for 5 rounds thereafter, moving away from Vore at 20 feet per round. Any creature caught in the lava's area must attempt a DC 42 Reflex save; success indicates that the creature takes 6d6 points of fire damage provided it can physically escape the area on its next turn. Creatures that fail their saves, or those unable to escape the area, take 20d6 points of fire damage in each round they remain in the area. Creatures in the lava have their speed reduced to 5 feet and take a -2 penalty on attack rolls to Armor Class. Even after leaving the area of the spell, creatures that were exposed to the lava take half damage (either 3d6 or 10d6) for 1 additional round. The save DCs are Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

Yeah, let's go with 80.  He's epic, after all.    

Change:

"Additionally, the lava lingers for 5 rounds thereafter, moving away from Vore at 20 feet per round"

To:

"Additionally, the lava lingers for 5 rounds thereafter, moving away from Vore at 20 feet per round as long as it travels downward.  The lava no longer moves forward once it can no longer travel downward."


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

did you want to have a "spread" effect like mortis suggests, in case Vore appears near the bottom of the mountain?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Could work, will we need to state 'downhill'? what happens on the flat - does it just cover the 3 squares in front of the creature and not move.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

Yeah, that's a good idea.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

how should we state that?  i have no idea.  

maybe after the "it can no longer travel downward" part, we say if it reaches a flat surface, it forms a spread at a rate of say 10 feet per round for the remaining rounds?  would that be the right way to say it?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

I think that would work.


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## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> We could also give him something akin to earth glide, but it only allows travel with his mountain.




here is the ability straight up; we'd undoubtedly want to make modifications:

Earth Glide (Ex): A X can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing X flings the X back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless she succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

i think it was me that suggested considering using some ideas from this spell as well:

Meld into Stone
Transmutation [Earth]
Level: Clr 3, Drd 3
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 10 min./level

Meld into stone enables you to meld your body and possessions into a single block of stone. The stone must be large enough to accommodate your body in all three dimensions. When the casting is complete, you and not more than 100 pounds of nonliving gear merge with the stone. If either condition is violated, the spell fails and is wasted.

While in the stone, you remain in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the stone through which you melded. You remain aware of the passage of time and can cast spells on yourself while hiding in the stone. Nothing that goes on outside the stone can be seen, but you can still hear what happens around you. Minor physical damage to the stone does not harm you, but its partial destruction (to the extent that you no longer fit within it) expels you and deals you 5d6 points of damage. The stone’s complete destruction expels you and slays you instantly unless you make a DC 18 Fortitude save.

Any time before the duration expires, you can step out of the stone through the surface that you entered. If the spell’s duration expires or the effect is dispelled before you voluntarily exit the stone, you are violently expelled and take 5d6 points of damage.

The following spells harm you if cast upon the stone that you are occupying: Stone to flesh expels you and deals you 5d6 points of damage. Stone shape deals you 3d6 points of damage but does not expel you. Transmute rock to mud expels you and then slays you instantly unless you make a DC 18 Fortitude save, in which case you are merely expelled. Finally, passwall expels you without damage.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> here is the ability straight up; we'd undoubtedly want to make modifications:
> 
> Earth Glide (Ex): A X can glide through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other signs of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing X flings the X back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless she succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.




That could all work as long as we add a limiter to his mountain realm.

As for the spell, most of it works, except:



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Minor physical damage to the stone does not harm you, but its partial destruction (to the extent that you no longer fit within it) expels you and deals you 5d6 points of damage. The stone’s complete destruction expels you and slays you instantly unless you make a DC 18 Fortitude save.




Probably unnecessary as it ain't easy to destroy an entire mountain.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Any time before the duration expires, you can step out of the stone through the surface that you entered. If the spell’s duration expires or the effect is dispelled before you voluntarily exit the stone, you are violently expelled and take 5d6 points of damage.




It should never expire, thus preventing the second sentence.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The following spells harm you if cast upon the stone that you are occupying: Stone to flesh expels you and deals you 5d6 points of damage. Stone shape deals you 3d6 points of damage but does not expel you. Transmute rock to mud expels you and then slays you instantly unless you make a DC 18 Fortitude save, in which case you are merely expelled. Finally, passwall expels you without damage.




I think at the very least the "transmute rock to mud=death" should be omitted due to the size.

Another thing to donsider modifiying for Vore...

Mountain Dependency (Su): Each oread is mystically bound to a mountain. If an oread stays farther than 1 mile from her mountain, she dies within 4d6 hours.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> That could all work as long as we add a limiter to his mountain realm.




True.  See below.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Probably unnecessary as it ain't easy to destroy an entire mountain.




True.    I’ll cut that out.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It should never expire, thus preventing the second sentence.




The whole paragraph, really, since he cannot fully leave the mountain.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think at the very least the "transmute rock to mud=death" should be omitted due to the size.




Omitted, or transferred to straight damage.  We’ll see how many such things we want to list in that last sentence.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Another thing to donsider modifiying for Vore...
> 
> Mountain Dependency (Su): Each oread is mystically bound to a mountain. If an oread stays farther than 1 mile from her mountain, she dies within 4d6 hours.




Not sure how that would be useful?

In this ability, should we make it clear how much Vore can move in or out of the mountain and all that?  is it clear enough already?

“Vore’s Movement” (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy can glide through the stone and earth of Vstaive Peak as easily as a fish swims through water. His burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does he create any ripple or other signs of his presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing Vore Lekiniskiy (forces him back into the mountain?), stunning him for 1 round unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Vore is always in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the mountain. He remains aware of the passage of time and can cast spells on himself while hiding in the mountain. Nothing that goes on outside the mountain can be seen, but Vore can still hear what happens around him. 

The following spells harm Vore if cast upon the area that he is occupying: Stone to flesh deals him 5d6 points of damage. Stone shape deals him 3d6 points of damage. Transmute rock to mud (deals him X damage?). Passwall (deals him Xdamage?).


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Not sure how that would be useful?




Just the fact that he's tied to a mountain.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> In this ability, should we make it clear how much Vore can move in or out of the mountain and all that?  is it clear enough already?
> 
> “Vore’s Movement” (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy can glide through the stone and earth of Vstaive Peak as easily as a fish swims through water. His burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does he create any ripple or other signs of his presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing Vore Lekiniskiy (forces him back into the mountain?), stunning him for 1 round unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
> 
> ...




I'm liking it so far.  The parenthetical bit in the first paragraph seems fine.  Since both transmute rock to mud and passwall are a level lower than stone to flesh, maybe 4d6 for both?

We probably need to add a line or two describing how far he extends from the mountain.  Something like:

"Vore must always keep at least 5 feet of his space within the mountain.  He can extend the rest of his body and use his natural reach as normal."


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2006)

i agree that something like that should be stated.  i'm not sure how it would work though, to keep 5 feet of his space within the mountain, since his space is 30x30 (at least)?


----------



## Mortis (Dec 5, 2006)

Would it be easier to just say 'that he must remain in contact with the mountain'?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Would it be easier to just say 'that he must remain in contact with the mountain'?




Yeah, probably.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2006)

and that no more than half his body can come out of it.


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about that!


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2006)

how's about...

“One With the Mountain” (Ex): Vore Lekiniskiy is mystically bound to Vstaive Peak. He can glide through the stone and earth of Vstaive Peak as easily as a fish swims through water. His burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does he create any ripple or other signs of his presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing Vore Lekiniskiy forces him back into the mountain, stunning him for 1 round unless he succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.

Vore is always in contact, however tenuous, with the face of the mountain. He remains aware of the passage of time and can cast spells on himself while hiding in the mountain. Nothing that goes on outside the mountain can be seen, but Vore can still hear what happens around him.  Vore can emerge from the face of the mountain at any point he wishes, however he cannot fully leave the mountain; he must always remain in contact with the mountain and cannot have more than half of his body outside the mountain at any time.

The following spells harm Vore if cast upon the area that he is occupying: Stone to flesh deals him 5d6 points of damage, transmute rock to mud and passwall deal him 4d6 points of damage, and stone shape deals him 3d6 points of damage.


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

That looks good, and I like the ability name.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 5, 2006)

heh!  updating...


----------



## Shade (Dec 5, 2006)

Well since he has earth glide now, we need to give him a land speed.

Tail slap gains 1-1/2 Str modifier, so +27.



			
				Dragon Entry said:
			
		

> Skills: All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) x (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)




So, 45 ranks each in Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Use Magic Device?   That leaves max ranks in five more skills (or less than max ranks in more).  Spellcraft seems a good choice as well.

For the 13 remaining feats, Multiattack, Power Attack, and Improved Critical are always good.  Some metamagic feats wouldn't be bad, but we'll need to figure out his spellcasting before we can select them wisely.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 6, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well since he has earth glide now, we need to give him a land speed.




might as well.

"Vore cannot hunt or move from the mountain, but he can emerge anywhere on the mountain in 2d4 rounds. He can retreat the same way and at the same pace."  

so, he needs to be fast enough that he could appear anywhere on his mountain within 4 rounds.  did the article say how big Vstaive Peak is?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Some metamagic feats wouldn't be bad, but we'll need to figure out his spellcasting before we can select them wisely.




now, sorcerer seems like an easy choice, and would normally be for most creatures.  however:

"Vore Lekiniskiy can cast wizard spells at the 20th level of ability and has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia."

with the "nearly any spell available" part, we'd be limiting him severely by restricting him to a typical sorcerer's Spells Known list.  i think he should be able to cast as a sorcerer though, in terms of not having to use spell books or prepare ahead of time.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> so, he needs to be fast enough that he could appear anywhere on his mountain within 4 rounds.  did the article say how big Vstaive Peak is?




No size given.

According to Wikipedia, average mountain heights on earth are about 2 kilometers (about 6400 feet).

With a base speed of 400 feet, he could go 1600 feet as a run action, so 6400 feet in 4 rounds.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> now, sorcerer seems like an easy choice, and would normally be for most creatures.  however:
> 
> "Vore Lekiniskiy can cast wizard spells at the 20th level of ability and has access to nearly any spell available on Cerilia."
> 
> with the "nearly any spell available" part, we'd be limiting him severely by restricting him to a typical sorcerer's Spells Known list.  i think he should be able to cast as a sorcerer though, in terms of not having to use spell books or prepare ahead of time.




I'd simply state that Vore casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer, but treats all spells in the Player's Handbook (and any others the DM deems appropriate) as spells known.


----------



## Qwillion (Dec 6, 2006)

As to his movement why not simply state that he can _greater teleport_ anywhere on the mountain as a move equivalent action.  Though in reality it is probably more like stone walk than teleport but I don't remember if that got converted to 3.5 or not.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 7, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> With a base speed of 400 feet, he could go 1600 feet as a run action, so 6400 feet in 4 rounds.




works for me.    or we could make it Burrow 400 feet?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd simply state that Vore casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer, but treats all spells in the Player's Handbook (and any others the DM deems appropriate) as spells known.




i guess we could do that.     do we also want to give him a list of SLAs?  we scould start with the spells mentioned in the article and add a few as appropriate.



			
				Qwillion said:
			
		

> As to his movement why not simply state that he can _greater teleport_ anywhere on the mountain as a move equivalent action.  Though in reality it is probably more like stone walk than teleport but I don't remember if that got converted to 3.5 or not.




ah, but teleporting is a lot less interesting.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> works for me.    or we could make it Burrow 400 feet?




Either way.  Xorn have a burrow speed, yet earth elementals do not.  



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i guess we could do that.     do we also want to give him a list of SLAs?  we scould start with the spells mentioned in the article and add a few as appropriate.




I suppose he should have a few SLAs, as most dragons do.  



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> ah, but teleporting is a lot less interesting.




And prevents different challenges (dimensional lock and whatnot).


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 7, 2006)

Spells: Vore Lekiniskiy can cast arcane spells as a 20th-level sorcerer (6/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7; save DC 19 + spell level). He treats all sorcerer/wizard spells in the Player's Handbook (and any additional spells, at the DM's discretion) as spells known. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

We could start with these for SLAs:


			
				Dragon #248 said:
			
		

> He seldom troubles with the power to automatically use geas, suggestion, or feeblemind on anyone trapped in his gaze, but this may change.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2006)

Good idea.  Suggstion is a SLA of red dragons, while geas is for golds, so those are very good choices.  I see no problem with feeblemind, either.  

Another good one might be hallucinatory terrain or mirage arcana, to mask his mountain from those he doesn't want to see it (or to trick into stepping on it).


----------



## Mortis (Dec 8, 2006)

Dragon #248 said:
			
		

> He seldom troubles with the power to automatically use geas, suggestion, or feeblemind on anyone trapped in his *gaze*, but this may change.



Is that just flavour text or should we implement them as gaze attacks?

Gaze attacks, looking at (if you pardon the pun) the basilisk and medusa, are supernatural abilities rather than SLA's.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Either way. Xorn have a burrow speed, yet earth elementals do not.



Not that I suppose it matters, but I've always envisioned creatures with a 'burrow' making a tunnel (even fi it fills in after them), wereas those creatures that don't become one with the stone and slide though it. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Is that just flavour text or should we implement them as gaze attacks?
> 
> Gaze attacks, looking at (if you pardon the pun) the basilisk and medusa, are supernatural abilities rather than SLA's.




It's referring to this:



			
				Dragon #248 said:
			
		

> Vore's gaze attack forces opponents to save vs. paralyzation at 4 or be paralyzed for 1d3 turns. He uses this to trap unwary trespassers so that he may occasionally feed (he grows hungrier as he wins free of the mountain). He seldom troubles with the power to automatically use geas, suggestion, or feeblemind on anyone trapped in his gaze, but this may change.




To which I suggested this:



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Gaze (Su): Paralysis for 1d3 minutes, X feet, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 8, 2006)

I see... said the blind man. 

If there's one thing I shouldn't do it's just read the new posts. Especially on these long conversions. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I see... said the blind man.
> 
> If there's one thing I shouldn't do it's just read the new posts. Especially on these long conversions.




No worries.  Such are the perils of this medium.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 8, 2006)

i might get into Vore today, but it may be over the long weekend... i took Mon and Tues off since Tues is my 32nd birthday.


----------



## Mortis (Dec 11, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i might get into Vore today, but it may be over the long weekend... i took Mon and Tues off since Tues is my 32nd birthday.



Wow! That's the same birthday as BOZ. Here's me thinking that you won't be one til the 07-06-06.  Mr Aspect sir  

Just noticed that you registered on the 06-06-06, should we read something into that?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Just noticed that you registered on the 06-06-06, should we read something into that?




Oooh...spooky!


----------



## BOZ (Dec 11, 2006)

what better time was there for me to spawn an aspect?  

OK, so i forget, we had based him loosely on a GW red correct?  they have one SLA they can use 1/day/age category, one SLA they can use 3/day, and 2 more SLAs they can use 1/day.  that should give us an idea of what to do with Vore.  he should have feeblemind, geas, suggestion, and either hallucinatory terrain or mirage arcana as Shade suggests, which makes a good complement of SLAs; we just need to decide how many times per day he can use each one.


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2006)

Not all dragons have a 1/day per age category SLA (see gold, for example).

My suggestion:

3/day - feeblemind, suggestion
1/day - geas, hallucinatory terrain or mirage arcana


----------



## BOZ (Dec 11, 2006)

if we're going 1/day anyway, might as well go with mirage arcana.    20th level like his actual spells?

did we ever get around to figuring out the earthquake effect?


----------



## Shade (Dec 11, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> if we're going 1/day anyway, might as well go with mirage arcana.    20th level like his actual spells?




Sounds good on both.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> did we ever get around to figuring out the earthquake effect?




I don't believe so.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 11, 2006)

OK, that'll be the priority item for tomorrow then.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 12, 2006)

you know, this passage also leads me to believe that maybe Vore's movement isn't as simple as move earth.  i mean, we can keep it the same mechanically for simplicity, but i'd say it would be noisy as hell, and you can feel it if you're anywhere near the mountain.    or maybe he simply is just burrowing in the first place?



			
				Dragon 248 said:
			
		

> When Vore erupts from the mountainside, he causes an earthquake that forces everyone on the mountain to save vs. paralyzation or be thrown to the ground. The DM may allow modifiers to the saving throw based on how close the characters are to where Vore is erupting.




OK, we can model this effect after either the earthquake spell.  i also thought that there might have been a description for non-magical earthquakes in the DMG, but upon looking, i'm not finding it.  :\



			
				PHB said:
			
		

> Earthquake
> Evocation [Earth]
> Level: Clr 8, Destruction 8, Drd 8, Earth 7
> Components: V, S, DF
> ...




the easiest way to do it, might be to say "causes an earthquake, as the spell"


----------



## Shade (Dec 13, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you know, this passage also leads me to believe that maybe Vore's movement isn't as simple as move earth.  i mean, we can keep it the same mechanically for simplicity, but i'd say it would be noisy as hell, and you can feel it if you're anywhere near the mountain.    or maybe he simply is just burrowing in the first place?




The problem with him just having a burrow speed is that eventually you'd think the whole mountain would collapse.

I do agree that we can add that his earth glide isn't silent, but instead causes great rumbling.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, we can model this effect after either the earthquake spell.  i also thought that there might have been a description for non-magical earthquakes in the DMG, but upon looking, i'm not finding it.  :\




Well I'll be damned, I thought there was info on mundane earthquakes, too.  But searching the SRD yields no such thing, and I can't find it in the DMG either.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the easiest way to do it, might be to say "causes an earthquake, as the spell"




I don't really see any issue with that.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 15, 2006)

it would make sense if there was info on mundane earthquakes in the core books - but if there isn't, then i guess there isn't.  i think avalanches get covered, but not seismic events.  

as far as the actual spell, i'm not sure which parts specifically apply to being on a mountain, but i think we might be cool with just modifying the opening text. after all, it covers what is said in the original text.

When you cast earthquake, an intense but highly localized tremor rips the ground. The shock knocks creatures down, collapses structures, opens cracks in the ground, and more. The effect lasts for 1 round, during which time creatures on the ground can’t move or attack. A spellcaster on the ground must make a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) or lose any spell he or she tries to cast. The earthquake affects all terrain, vegetation, structures, and creatures in the area. The specific effect of an earthquake spell depends on the nature of the terrain where it is cast.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2006)

Maybe they just felt the spell adequately covered it.    

I'll think more on the rewrite and check back later.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Dec 16, 2006)

same here.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 16, 2006)

i think this should cover it, and i think we can just add it to his "one with the mountain" ability.

Whenever Vore Lekiniskiy emerges from the mountainside, he causes an effect similar to an earthquake spell.  Creatures climbing Vstaive Peak are considered to be as if they are standing on open ground. This effect is not magical in nature, and any fissures created do not grind shut on their own.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

also, since i took today off (and today my baby is NOT sick, so she's catching up with all the fun at daycare), i'm chillin the F out at home, and i'm going to work on CC stuff.  

first thing, after browsing enworld for a bit, i'll be writing Vore's flavor text...


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Yay!   Welcome back.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i think this should cover it, and i think we can just add it to his "one with the mountain" ability.
> 
> Whenever Vore Lekiniskiy emerges from the mountainside, he causes an effect similar to an earthquake spell.  Creatures climbing Vstaive Peak are considered to be as if they are standing on open ground. This effect is not magical in nature, and any fissures created do not grind shut on their own.




ahem!


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Gezundheit!

That looks good.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

OK, here is the flavor text.

_This dragon appears to be stuck in the mountainside, its body only partially poking out.  Its scaled skin is dotted with dirt, rocks, and gems.  White bone shows through in patches where the flesh seems to be worn away._

Vore Lekiniskiy is mystically bound to Vstaive Peak. No one seems to know how this happened, though it appears he did this to himself.  He has been trapped for centuries, forgetting about things like hunger and pain.  Now, he is slowly remembering, and grows increasingly frustrated as he tries to find a way to end this torturing existence.  He grows hungrier as he wins more and more free from the mountain, but his entrapment prevents him from hunting or moving from the mountain.

Vore can move through the mountain with relative ease, and emerge partially from its face, though it seems cannot bring more than half of it out at any one time.  This emergence is not without a struggle, and seems to cause him no small degree of pain.  The violent foce which this emergence seems to require tears some of the flesh from his bones, giving him an appearance of undeath, although he is very much alive. Vore's exact actual size is unknown.

COMBAT
When Vore Lekiniskiy emerges from the moutainside to attack, he can tear free his head and either one or both of his claws from the mountain's interior simultaneously.  When retreating back into the mountain, he will usually pull his head back in first, allowing him to attack blindly with his claws for one round before pulling them back in as well.  He can also stick his rear half out of the mountain, making a blind tail slap attack if he desires.

Vore's breath weapon is like a volcano erupting, exploding lava and molten rock everywhere.  He also uses his gaze attack to trap unwary trespassers to serve as meals, though he sometimes uses his spell-like abilities on paralyzed victims instead.  He rarely wastes his magical energy on casting spells, however, as his main priority is freeing himself from the mountain.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Very nice.   

Should "torturing" be "tortured" in that case?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

updating!


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Any idea what they meant by "invulnerability"?   I just reread the original text, and see nothing that jumps out at me.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

LOL  same here.    it was in the Special Defenses line, which is why i put it in the SQ line with the quotation marks, but i couldn't see anything specific in the text which it refers to.  since you can't either, i'll just stike the word from the line.


----------



## Shade (Dec 18, 2006)

Sounds good.

For feats, how about:

Ability Focus (frightful presence), Blind-Fight, Cleave, Devastating Critical (bite), Empower Spell, Great Cleave, Heighten Spell, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Critical (claw), Intensify Spell, Maximize Spell, Multiattack, Overwhelming Critical (bite), Power Attack, Snatch.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 18, 2006)

sure, that works for me.


----------



## Shade (Dec 19, 2006)

I just realized that Overwhelming Crit and Dev Crit require Weapon Focus, so I'd suggest swapping out Intensify Spell with Weapon Focus (bite):

With those feats in mind:

Attack: Bite +54 melee (8d6+19/19-20 plus 1d6 on critical hit and DC 50 Fort save or die) or tail slap +51 melee (4d8+27)
Full Attack: Bite +54 melee (8d6+19/19-20 plus 1d6 on critical hit and DC 50 Fort save or die) and 2 claws +51 melee (4d8+9/19-20) or tail slap +51 melee (4d8+27)

For skills, how about:

Concentration 45, Diplomacy 45, Escape Artist 45, Intimidate 45, Knowledge (arcana) 45, Knowledge (geography) 45, Knowledge (history) 45, Knowledge (local) 45, Listen 45, Search 45, Sense Motive 45, Spellcraft 45, Spot 45, Survival 45, and Use Magic Device 45


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 4, 2007)

i'll try to get Vore posted again tonight.  

TREASURE: Special

what should we go with for that?  i'm almost leaning "None", since it makes sense, and the article seems to give no indication about what he might have or where.  however, i'm also thinking that if a party manages to kill him, it might be able to enter the mountain and collect his loot or something.

opinions there?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2007)

I'd imagine his mountain is rich with the loot of the fallen.   Does it state that he doesn't hoard like other dragons?

If he specifically doesn't hoard treasure, I'd go with standard coins, standard goods, triple items.  Otherwise, I'd simply go with triple standard.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 4, 2007)

i don't remember seeing anything about treasure one way or the other.  we can go with triple standard, but we need to state somewhere that it can only be gained once Vore is killed and characters can get past his corpse into the mountain.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2007)

Flavor text should suffice.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 4, 2007)

eh?

Vore has amassed as impressive a treasure hoard as any great dragon, though it has become tied to the mountain just as he has.  None of his treasure can leave the mountain so long as he lives and remains tied to it.


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2007)

I like it.  It vaguely reminds me of the Curse of the Black Pearl.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 4, 2007)

cool.  

any thoughts on his CR?


----------



## Shade (Jan 4, 2007)

I'd beg him at CR 27, right between a great wyrm red dragon and a young adult force dragon.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 6, 2007)

that works for me, if no one else has an objection.    i'll be updating in homebrews now, of course.


now that i have access to my own computer again, and therefore my Dragon archives CR rom....       ...i took a look at the original article and found the missing text regarding his treasure:

Treasure Tales of Vstaive Peak
Wherever there are stories of dragons there are legends of treasure. Even a tale as dubious as the one surrounding Vore Lekiniskiy has spawned it share. The following rumors of treasure have found their way around the Cerilian courts and to the ears of adventurers:

v Orbs of draconic influence. Vore Lekiniskiy certainly earned the moniker “Master Fire Worm.” It is said that his eyes each function similarly to orbs of draconic influence. They can shift the reaction of any Cerilian dragon by up to ten levels (on Table 59: Encounter Reactions) and no dragon can attack a character holding one of Vore Lekiniskiy’s eyes unless the dragon is first attacked. 

v Magical tongue. It is said that anyone who eats a piece of Vore Lekiniskiy’s tongue and makes a successful saving throw vs. poison can speak with the power of suggestion for an entire turn. Those who fail the save suffer 3d10 hp damage.

v Jewels. While Vore Lekiniskiy’s hide has been merged with Vstaive Peak for millenia, when he frees himself (even temporarily), his skin becomes more draconian. Vore’s skin is encrusted with great jewels and gems. Anyone daring enough to search an area of the mountain where Master Fire Worm has recently emerged might find large, valuable gems amid the upturned rocks and avalanche detritus. It is said that each gem possesses some sort of non-lasting magical power (much like a potion—when the gem is clutched in both hands, the power activates), but some bear curses. All are extremely valuable. 

The problem with treasure hunting on Vstaive Peak is obvious: the most valuable treasure comes only from Vore Lekiniskiy’s own body—and Master Fire Worm, even in his changed state, should be near impossible to harm. Fortunately, there are other ways to use Vore Lekiniskiy’s power in a campaign.


----------



## Mortis (Jan 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that works for me, if no one else has an objection.



No argument here.


> i'll be updating in homebrews now, of course.



After checking homebrews we still need to decide on Spell Resistance and a range for the Gaze attack. Did we decide on Darkvision 120 ft?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2007)

It looks like we'll need to revisit the treasure.



> v Orbs of draconic influence. Vore Lekiniskiy certainly earned the moniker “Master Fire Worm.” It is said that his eyes each function similarly to orbs of draconic influence. They can shift the reaction of any Cerilian dragon by up to ten levels (on Table 59: Encounter Reactions) and no dragon can attack a character holding one of Vore Lekiniskiy’s eyes unless the dragon is first attacked.




Do these items exist in 3x?  If not, I'd say the wielder of one of his eyes functions similar to the ring of dragon friendship in Draconomicon (The wearer gains a +5 enhancement bonus on Diplomacy checks made to influence the attitude of dragons. No dragon will voluntarily attack or otherwise attempt to harm the wearer.), but with a higher bonus.



> v Magical tongue. It is said that anyone who eats a piece of Vore Lekiniskiy’s tongue and makes a successful saving throw vs. poison can speak with the power of suggestion for an entire turn. Those who fail the save suffer 3d10 hp damage.




This one is weird.  So essentially, use suggestion as a spell-like ability at will for 10 minutes?



> v Jewels. While Vore Lekiniskiy’s hide has been merged with Vstaive Peak for millenia, when he frees himself (even temporarily), his skin becomes more draconian. Vore’s skin is encrusted with great jewels and gems. Anyone daring enough to search an area of the mountain where Master Fire Worm has recently emerged might find large, valuable gems amid the upturned rocks and avalanche detritus. It is said that each gem possesses some sort of non-lasting magical power (much like a potion—when the gem is clutched in both hands, the power activates), but some bear curses. All are extremely valuable.




I'd say we stick with triple standard gems, but note that some of them may function as single-use spells, while others may be cursed.   See Gem Magic in Magic of Faerun for inspiration on the former.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> After checking homebrews we still need to decide on Spell Resistance and a range for the Gaze attack. Did we decide on Darkvision 120 ft?




75% is around 16 + CR, so 43 would be my choice.

For gaze, I like 120 ft.

Since it has keen senses like most true dragons, its darkvision is 120 ft. by default.


----------



## Mortis (Jan 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like we'll need to revisit the treasure.



Indeed 


> Do these items exist in 3x?  If not, I'd say the wielder of one of his eyes functions similar to the ring of dragon friendship in Draconomicon (The wearer gains a +5 enhancement bonus on Diplomacy checks made to influence the attitude of dragons. No dragon will voluntarily attack or otherwise attempt to harm the wearer.),



Not as far as I am aware. If they did, I would have thought that the Draconomicon would be the place to look (or perhaps the Epic Level Handbook).


> but with a higher bonus



 +10?


> This one is weird.  So essentially, use suggestion as a spell-like ability at will for 10 minutes?



Looks like  How long does the piece of the tongue keep for before it goes off? 



> I'd say we stick with triple standard gems, but note that some of them may function as single-use spells, while others may be cursed.   See Gem Magic in Magic of Faerun for inspiration on the former.



Can't help with Gem Magic 



> 75% is around 16 + CR, so 43 would be my choice.



Go on, push the boat out, lets have 45. 



> For gaze, I like 120 ft.
> 
> Since it has keen senses like most true dragons, its darkvision is 120 ft. by default.



I think it makes sense for it gaze range to be equal to its darkvision range.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

the original estimate for his SR was 34, but i see no problem going with 43 or 45 as you guys suggested.  

120 each for blindsight and gaze range works for me.

it doesn't look to me like he's missing anything else, but i will try to take a look through this thread and see if we missed anything.

as for his treasure, i'm going to scrap most of what we wrote before.    i'll redo everything as flavor text only (unless you guys really want to see some fleshed out magic items).


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> as for his treasure, i'm going to scrap most of what we wrote before.    i'll redo everything as flavor text only (unless you guys really want to see some fleshed out magic items).




Flavor text is fine by me.  Same with SR 45.


----------



## Mortis (Jan 8, 2007)

Flavour text works for me too.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

how's this?  

Vore has amassed as impressive a treasure hoard as any great dragon, though the majority of it lies inside the mountain and cannot be accessed so long as he guards it.  His skin is encrusted with great jewels and gems, which come loose when he emerges from the mountain.  Anyone daring enough to search an area of the mountain where the Master Fire Worm has recently emerged might find a veritable treasure trove of extremely valuable baubles amidst the upturned stones and cooled volcanic rock.  Rumor has it that each such gem may have a one-use magical effect (functioning like a potion, when clutched in both hands), or a curse.  Legends also state that if killed, his eyes could be used to influence a dragon’s reactions, and that eating a piece of his tongue allows a used to speak with the power of _suggestion_.


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2007)

Looks good.  One typo in the last sentence:  "used" = "user".


----------



## BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

cool.  like i said, i'll look through the thread, and re-post Vore in homebrews when i get the chance.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

looking through the thread now... not sure what has been totally addressed or not, just bringing it back up for one final look.  


referring to the lingering damage from the breath weapon's lava:



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Personally I think the 20d6 may be a little too severe - it is based on a creature being completely immersed in the lava rather than being in an area of lava up to his ankles etc.
> 
> But, hey, its an epic creature.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> You're right...that's probably too severe.   I guess what we need to decide (and to clarify in the text) is how much lava we're talking about exactly.  Is it just an "up to their ankles" bit, or is it a big wave.  Either way, it should definetely be less than total immersion.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Maybe if we base it on the original 25d10 damage, but a percentage - say 50% or rounding down to 12d6 or even 25% (6d6).






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> If we stick with 6d6 for a successful save, then 12d6 seems reasonable.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

besides that, more stuff to consider looking at:



			
				Qwillion said:
			
		

> I would make the extra lava damage consistant with the lingering damage breath weapon feats. (I am at work so not sure, but i think that is what you have here).
> 
> In away him being part of the mountain reminds me of a dragon enslaved by a Genis Loci
> 
> As to the spells to keep consistant with the change from 2e to 3.5, I would use the sorcerer progression, he should have access to clerical spells as well as chaotic, evil and earth domains.  He could use limited wish to switch out his known spells.




i'll keep going...


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

more...



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Here's that spell I mentioned.
> 
> DEADLY LAHAR
> Conjuration [Earth, Fire]
> ...




did we make use of this spell?  did we want to?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 8, 2007)

and - d'oh!  here's a good one.  we gave him the fire subtype, but not immunity to fire or vulnerability to cold.    of course, it might be fun to kill the subtype and keep the internal damage from using the volcano-granted breath weapon.   (but i seem to be the only one who likes that idea, heh)


i noticed, going through his original text description, that he applied a -4 penalty to his frightful presence (which we did account for with Ability Focus) and to his gaze attack (which we did not account for).  want to change that or are we fine as-is?


did i miss a word here?    "it forms a spread and at a rate of 10 feet per round for the remaining rounds"


should the tail slap damage modifier be +28?


----------



## Mortis (Jan 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i noticed, going through his original text description, that he applied a -4 penalty to his frightful presence (which we did account for with Ability Focus) and to his gaze attack (which we did not account for).  want to change that or are we fine as-is?



Could give him Ability Focus (gaze attack) as a bonus feat?



> did i miss a word here?    "it forms a spread and at a rate of 10 feet per round for the remaining rounds"



Yup  '...and *moves* at a rate...' should do it.



> should the tail slap damage modifier be +28?



Indeed. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> and - d'oh!  here's a good one.  we gave him the fire subtype, but not immunity to fire or vulnerability to cold.    of course, it might be fun to kill the subtype and keep the internal damage from using the volcano-granted breath weapon.   (but i seem to be the only one who likes that idea, heh)




I vote standard fire subtype, no wacky "takes damage for using his own primary ability".    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Could give him Ability Focus (gaze attack) as a bonus feat?




That would be fine.  I'd dump Heighten Spell to make room for it.

As for all the other breath weapon stuff, I think we considered them all before arriving at our current incarnation.  I'm fine with what we've got.


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## Mortis (Jan 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I vote standard fire subtype, no wacky "takes damage for using his own primary ability".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pretty much done then?

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I vote standard fire subtype, no wacky "takes damage for using his own primary ability".




you're no fun.  

OK, will fix him up and do my best to post him later today.


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## Mortis (Jan 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> you're no fun.  OK, will fix him up and do my best to post him later today.



If memory serves he will also be the tenth new conversion. 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jan 10, 2007)

i'll have to look into that.     meanwhile, finally got him updated...


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2007)

I don't see anything missing, but I'm a bit tired this morning so I might have missed something.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 10, 2007)

well, wake up and have another look.


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2007)

Now that I'm fully caffeinated, I had another look...and I'm still not finding any problems.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 10, 2007)

then i declare him done!


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2007)

Sweeeeet!


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## Mortis (Jan 11, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll have to look into that.



Here you go 

01 - Entrope
02 - Elf, Rockseer
03 - Hutaakan
04 - Ondonti
05 - Mist Mephit
06 - Maschin-I-Bozorg
07 - Black Golem
08 - Protein Polymorph
09 - Gray Philosopher + Malices
10 - Vore Lekiniskiy, Master Fire Worm

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jan 11, 2007)

good deal.    i'll get to that as soon as i can.  in the meantime, i've got something i hope to post about in the very near future...


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Since folks have been asking for this over on Paizo's boards since the ferrous dragon article made its appearance in Dragon #356, here goes...

*Gruaghlothor*
Supreme Dragon of the Ferrous Dragons
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: See text
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius (20)
TREASURE: H,R,S, T(X3), V
ALIGNMENT: Lawful neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 12
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 36 (C), Br 8, Jp 4
HIT DICE: 25 (200 hp)
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-12/3-12/7-42+12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 80%
SIZE: G (185’body, 140’tail)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 35,000

The Supreme Dragon, Gruaghlothor, is the ruler of all ferrous dragons and is an incarnation of all the sovereign iron dragons since the dawn of time. Despite this, Gruaghlothor is not a divine power.  Gruaghlothor is said to have been the very first ferrous dragon ever to exist. It was under his guidance that the clan hierarchy was formed. He was destroyed in battle
with a huge pack of red dragons. With his dying breath, Gruaghlothor swore to destroy the red dragons if he had to come back from the grave, and return he did.  The red dragons remain, but deep under a mighty mountain burns the smoldering hatred of a thousand kings waiting to flare into the destruction of their age-old enemies. 

Whenever Gruaghlothor dies, the iron dragon chosen to replace the former goes into a state of hibernation for one year.  During this time, the chosen one undergoes a metamorphosis. When it emerges, it has become Gruaghlothor. There is no solid explanation for how this works, and the iron dragons answer only, "It has always been so."

Gruaghlothor resembles a great iron wyrm in every respect except for its tremendous size. He can speak the tongue of his species, the tongue common to all ferrous dragons, and has an ability to communicate with any intelligent creature (as can an iron dragon).

Combat: Gruaghlothor is an impressive figure and does not take kindly to intruders, no matter what their business. He possesses tremendous spell capability and uses his spells and abilities in preference to physical combat. If pressed, however, he will engage in physical combat. 

Gruaghlothor has three breath weapons, each usable twice a day: a cloud of sleep gas 60' long, 50' wide, and 40' high; a cone of superheated sparks 100' long, 5' wide at the dragon's mouth, and 40' wide at the end, doing 24d12 +24 hp damage; or a bolt of solid stone 30' long and 5' wide, fired out to a 120' from the dragon's mouth, doing 24d12 + 24 hp damage. Creatures caught in the gas must save vs. breath weapon or fall asleep regardless of hit dice. Creatures caught in either the spark cone or in the path of the stone bolt are allowed a save vs. breath weapon for half damage.

Gruaghlothor possesses the same abilities and immunities as other iron dragons, with the exception that every power gains one additional use a day (e.g., heat metal can be used four times a day, stone shape three times a day, etc.). He also gains the ability to passwall up to three times a day.

He casts spells as a 22nd-level wizard and has the following spells: five 1st level, five 2nd, five 3rd, five 4th, three 5th, two 6th, and one 7th.

Habitat/Society: Gruaghlothor dwells in a cavern far below one of the highest peaks in the world. From there he rules over all of the ferrous dragons, settling all disputes that cannot be handled by the other dragon leaders, dispensing justice to those who cannot obey clan laws, and mating with his concubines in order to produce his eventual successor.

Ecology: Gruaghlothor sustains himself on a diet of iron ore but is fond of red dragon flesh. He occasionally goes hunting for the latter fare, which he considers a delicacy.
Gruaghlothor is quite content to be left alone, where he will spend countless days devising ways to exterminate the red dragons. He has a tremendous store of knowledge and the wisdom to use it wisely; one cannot help but think that he might someday succeed in his desire.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

The first thing I'd like to do is compare Gru to the 1E Tiamat and Bahamut to determine where his power level falls compared to those two.   I don't have my 1E MM handy, so I'll have to check it this weekend unless someone else has it handy.


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

I work from home, so I'm seldom more than a few meters away from my entire D&D collection 

Chromatic Dragon (Tiamat)

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 6"/18"
HIT DICE: 16 (128 hit points)
% IN LAIR: 90%
TREASURE TYPE: 100% H, S, T, U
NO. OF ATTACKS: 6
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16/3-18/2-20/3-24/3-30/1-6
SPECIALATTACKS: Breath weapons, poison and magic use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
SIZE: L (60' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
  Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
CHANCE OF:
  Speaking: 100%
  Magic Use: 100%
  Sleeping: 10%

Tiamat rules the first plane of the Nine Hells where she spawns all of evil dragon kind. She hates all good as fiercely as she loves cruelty and hoards wealth. She is seldom (10%) outside her lair, but occasionally she comes to earth to place a new dragon or to seek more treasure. She can travel astrally or ethereally.

Although her sheer size prevents claw attacks, Tiamat can bite with all five of her heads and sting with her tail at the some time, breathe with one or more of these heads or cast spells with one or more heads at the same time. Tiamat's heads are white, black, green, blue, and red. Her breath weapons correspond to the color of each head, exactly duplicating the size and shape of the appropriate dragon's breath weapon and doing damage equal to a huge, ancient dragon of the species applicable, i.e. 56 hit points frost (cold) damage, 64 hit points acid damage, 72 hit points gas (chlorine) damage, 80 hit points electrical (lightning) damage, and 88 hit points fire damage. She can use each breath weapon but once per day. Note that each of her heads is also capable of employing two spells. Tiamat's white head is able to cast two 1st level spells, her black head two 2nd level spells, her green head two 3rd level spells, her blue head two 4th level spells, and her red head two 5th level spells.

Each of Tiamat's heads can withstand 16 hit points damage before going out of commission until regeneration replaces it the following day. If her body tokes more than 48 hit points damage she is dispelled to her own plane of Hell (or slain if fought in Hell) just as any other devil.

When encountered in her lair, Tiamat will always have five consort/guards with her -- one huge, adult male dragon of the white, black, green, blue and red types respectively. They are all able to speak and use spells, if applicable.

Description: Tiamat's heads have already been noted. These colors run the length of each neck and into the forepart of the body as stripes, gradually blending to three stripes of gray, blue-green, and purple over her back and hind quarters, and merging into a muddy dark brown tail. Her underbelly and legs are greenish white fading into her upper body colors.


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

Platinum Dragon (Bahamut)

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 9"/30"
HIT DICE: 21 (168 hit points)
% IN LAIR: 75%
TREASURE TYPE: 100% H, I, R, S, T, V
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12/2-12/6-48
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapons + magic use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Supra genius
ALIGNMENT: Lawful good
SIZE: L (72' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
  Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
CHANCE OF:
  Speaking: 100%
  Magic Use: 100%
  Sleeping: 5%

The King of Good dragons, Bahamut the platinum dragon, dwells in a great fortified palace behind the east wind. (No one knows for certain if this place is on the elemental plane of air or some plane betwixt it and the Seven Heavens or Tri-Paradises, save Bahamut and his court.) About one-quarter of the time he roams the earth in the guise of human or nearly any other form he chooses, for Bahamut is able to shope change freely. He can travel astrally or ethereally.

In attacking, the platinum dragon can opt to fight with a pair of clawing attacks and a bite, or he can breathe anyone of three forms of breath weapon - cold in a cone 8" long with a base diameter of 3", a cloud of vapor which causes persons therein to save versus dragon breath or lose their substance and assume gaseous form for 12 full turns, or a sonic vibration which will disintegrate up to 150 hit points. He is capable of using each breath weapon twice per day. All saving throws against his breath are at a -3 due to the powerful nature of their originator.

Bahamut is able to employ any spells of 1st through 7th level; two each of magical and 1 each of clerical spells per day, or a maximum of 21 spells. He possesses books listing all known magic spells of these levels.

There are seven huge ancient gold dragons of highest abilities and loyalty who serve as guards, companions, and advisors to Bahamut. He seldom (10%) is without them. (A sage tells of encountering Bahamut in the guise of an old hermit, with seven canaries singing sweetly as they flitted nearby. The sage relates that he would never have known that he was anything other than what he appeared to be except that a group of ogres and trolls happened by much to their sorrow...)


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Thank you kindly!


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

It looks like Gru is much bigger and badder than Bahamut and Tiamat in their non-deity incarnations.


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

Shouldn't you be comparing Gru to the 2nd Edition versions of Tiamat and Bahamut though, since the article in Dragon #170 is a 2nd Edition article?

I think the 2nd Edition stats from Polyhedron #73 would be the fairest comparison. I'll go look for those now.


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

From Polyhedron #73 (July 1992):

Dragon, Bahamut

CLIMATE/TERAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary or with gold dragon court
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Godlike (22)
TREASURE: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, S, T, U (all x 10)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -15
MOVEMENT: 18, FI 40 (C), Sw 24, Jp 18, Br 18
HIT DICE: 70 (490 hit points)
THACO: 2
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 6-60/6-60(6d10)/10-1 00(10d10)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +3 or better weapon to hit, spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 90%
SIZE: G (420' long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 72,000

Bahamut, the platinum dragon, is the king of all goodly-aligned dragons. The ancient, wingless serpent is considered a deity among dragons and dragonkind.

Although Bahamut's immense form seems threatening, his benevolent expression displays his kindness and hints at his great wisdom. He is quick to aid the causes of good creatures -- usually by assigning other dragons to the tasks. If he feels the threat is great, he will assume a different guise and tend to the matter himself.

The most handsome of all dragons, Bahamut's platinum scales glow with a faint blue sheen. The scales are huge, thick, and virtually indestructable. Only the most magical of weapons can penetrate them. The scales shimmer as the great one walks, creating a mirror-like glare that is difficult to look directly upon. His boulder-size eyes are a pale lavender, in sharp contrast to his glistening, spiral ebony horns. Only a few living beings have ever seen this magnificent form. Bahamut chooses to wear the guises of humans, demihumans, and common creatures so he does not frighten lesser beings.

In Bahamut's lifetime, he has visited every known world and plane at least once. His insatiable curiousity has taken him to many peoples, and he has consequently learned to communicate with nearly every known race. The platinum dragon is aided in this linguistic task by his ever-present receptive form of _telepathy_. However, due to changes in local dialects, Bahamut may have to cast a spell to aid him so he can better converse in up-to-date terminology.

*Combat:* Bahamut rarely involves himself in struggles, relying on other goodly-aligned dragons and creatures to deal with the situations. However, if a situation is especially threatening or if Bahamut's curiousity is piqued enough to cause his involvement, the platinum dragon and his gold dragon court will enter the fray. When the foes are obviously evil, the platinum dragon strikes first with his concussive blast, using this breath each round as often as necessary. If the nature of the foes is uncertain, Bahamut uses his vapor breath, which puts affected creatures into a gaseous form. The dragon and his court gather up any weapons and armor, wait for their foes to materialize, and then question them -- or finish them off if the targets are unwilling to talk. The platinum dragon prefers to use his spells and spell-like abilities to aid worthy causes rather than in combat. However, if pressed, he will use these spells to fight. Bahamut uses his physical attacks as a last resort, as the great one dislikes dirtying his claws and teeth with the blood of evil creatures.

Bahamut's gold dragon court first rely on their breath weapons in combat, followed by spells. Like the platinum dragon, they prefer not to fight physically. However, they will do so if the platinum dragon seems threatened.

*Breath weapon/special abilities:* Bahamut has three breath weapons. The most visible breath weapon is a frosty white cone of cold 10' wide at his mouth, 250' long, and 80' wide at the base. All those within the cone suffer 20d20 + 12 hit points of damage, save vs. breath weapons for half. Any creature caught within the cone has a 50% chance to drop anything held in its hands (saving throw not withstanding), as the objects have become too cold to handle. Further, for the next four rounds those creatures suffer half movement rate and are -4 on all attack rolls and Armor Class ratings because of their bodies' uncontrolable shivering. The second breath is a whispy blue cloud of magical vapor that is 120' long, 60' wide, and 60' deep. All those caught within the cloud are reduced to half their current hit points. Those who save are reduced by one-quarter. Further, all creatures which do not save turn gaseous for 3d4 turns. All equipment and items worn do not turn gaseous, but fall to the ground. The third breath is a concussive blast of air which is 10' wide at Bahamut's mouth, 150' long, and 50' wide at the base. This horrible assault kills all creatures within its range which have 60 hit points or less. There is no saving throw. Creatures possessing more than 60 hit points suffer 60 points of damage, no saving throw. Bahamut can use one breath per round as many times a day as desired. Creatures struck by a breath weapon save at -4 because of Bahamut's awesome power.

Bahamut is able to cast at will any first through seventh level priest spell and first through ninth level wizard spell. Bahamut can cast 100 spell levels per day. For example, Bahamut can cast 20 fifth level spells or any other combination thereof to equal 100.

In addition, he has the permanent abilities of _receptive telepathy_ and _shapechange_. He can become astral or ethereal at will, and he is immune to Cold and gaseous attacks.

Bahamut casts spells and uses his abilities at 20th level.

*Habitat/Society:* While Bahamut has been known to inhabit virtually any clime in the guise of a human or demihuman, he most often resides in an immense crystal palace behind the East Wind. Sages speculate this palace is either on the elemental plane of air or in the Seven Heavens or TriParadises. The wisest of sages believe the palace occupies a
pocket dimension between the plane of air and the Seven Heavens and that Bahamut and his gold dragon court are the dimension's only occupants. Legends say the crystal palace is covered with _glyphs_ and _wards_ and protected by spells humankind has yet to discover.

The platinum dragon journeys to human and demi-human lands out of curiosity. Bahamut has a fondness for the creatures and occassionally travels among them to learn about trends in their cultures, current politics, and new magical or clerical discoveries. During these forays, he is almost always accompanied by the seven gold dragons of his court -- who also assume an acceptable guise.

Sages say the platinum dragon is most fond of the form of an elderly man followed by seven yellow canaries. Other recorded forms have included a straggly-appearing urchin and his seven rag-tag friends, a prince and his carriage drawn by seven horses, and a beggar surrounded by yelping dogs. The sages are certain he has other guises, though nothing else has been documented.

Although Bahamut's court is comprised of gold dragons, he enjoys the company of all good dragons, delighting in their differences and varied personalities.

Bahamut's treasure is stored deep inside his crystal palace. Despite the immensity of the piles of gems, gold, and magical items, he considers the wealth inconsequential in the overall scheme of things. However, he uses bits of his treasurepassing out coins and gems to those down on their luck and using magic items to his own advantage.

*Ecology:* Bahamut is capable of eating nearly anything. He only requires sustenance while outside the crystal palace. His favorite meals include the early-morning frost on blades of grass, honey, and daisy petals. His nemesis is Tiamat, the chromatic dragon.

*Gold Dragon Court:* Bahamut's loyal court is comprised of seven great wyrm gold dragons. Each of these dragons has maximum hit points, is well-versed in the most effective of spells, and is intensely loyal to Bahamut. There is only a 10 percent chance Bahamut will be encountered without his court. When in his presence they appear in a form that complements his own-in their true bodies when he appears as a dragon, as canaries when he is an elderly man, and in other shapes as the situation warrants.

Sitting on Bahamut's gold dragon court is a position of unmatched prestige. Once appointed to the court, a great wyrm gold dragon serves until his or her death or until he or she is too infirm to aid Bahamut. When a replacement gold dragon is needed, Bahamut observes all gold wyrms and great wyrms, secretly testing them. These tests are elaborate, dangerous, and challenges the mettle of the greatest of dragons. Only the most noble and courageous dragons have a chance to be named to the court.

Some sages speculate that Bahamut only chooses gold dragons for his court because a hundred centuries ago the platinum dragon was gold. Sages say Bahamut's great goodness caused him to transcend his golden form and become a unique breed of dragon -- the most powerful dragon ever.


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

Dragon, Tiamat

CLIMATE/TERAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Unique
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Special
INTELLIGENCE: Godlike (21)
TREASURE: A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, S, T, U (all x 15)
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -15
MOVEMENT: 9, FI 30 (C), Sw 12, Jp 12
HIT DICE: 60 (420 hit points)
THACO: 2
NO. OF ATTACKS: Up to 7 + special
DAMAGE/ATTACKS/
CLAWS/TAIL: 3-30 + 12/3-30 + 12
RED DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 3-30 + 12/24d10 + 12
GREEN DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 2-20 + 12/24d6 + 12
BLUE DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 3-24 + 12/24d8 + 12
BLACK DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 3-18 + 12/24d4 + 12
WHITE DRAGON BITE/BREATH: 2-16 + 12/12d6 + 12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit, spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 80%
SIZE: G (360/ long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 68,000

Tiamat, called the "Queen of Evil Dragons" or the "Bane of Bahamut," is the most powerful and malicious of the chromatic dragons. Sages say no act is too evil for Tiamat -- if it nets her more wealth, influence, and causes harm to the forces of good.

The great dragon looks like a nightmare creation, sporting the necks and heads of white, black, green, blue, and red great wyrms. While the mass of huge heads seem to move independently like a group of writhing snakes, they are directed by one intelligence lodged deeply inside the dragon's massive body. Tiamat's five necks join just above massive, muscular shoulders. The colors of the necks and heads blend at the base in a swirl of colors that quickly turns jet black just below the shoulders. The black scales are small for a dragon of this size, about the size of a man's fist, and gleam like ebony pearls. The great dragon's belly is blue tinged with black, and her long, razor sharp talons are ruby red. Tiamat's great tail -- nearly twice as long as her body from chest to haunches -- seems to shift in hue as it twitches from emerald green to midnight black to sapphire blue. The queen's legs are as thick as great trees, and her wings -- black on the exterior and red as blood on the underside -- are huge. Still, they are not powerful enough to lift her great bulk with ease; Tiamat flies magically. The wings simply aid in her maneuverability.

Tiamat's teeth in her five heads are an opal white, sharp and long. And when the queen opens her mouths, the air seems to smell of brimstone and sulphur.

The centuries-old evil dragon has visited many lands in her many guises, becoming fluent in the languages of all evil creatures and all of dragonkind. She is also able to communicate in the languages of most men and demi-humans although she is loathe to lower herself to their level and do so.

*Combat:* Tiamat prefers to have her battles fought by troops of evil creatures loyal to her and by adult and older chromatic dragons. Despite her great power, she is fearful that direct combat with good creatures could cause her injury or death. So she prefers to orchestrate conflicts from the background. Such fights have escalated into full-scale wars between humans and evil creatures, with the humans never knowing who was ultimately behind the struggle.

When Tiamat is forced to fight, she begins her assault using all five breath weapons directed at the strongest targets. As of yet, she has found no mortal creature to survive beyond that first attack. Tiamat uses her spells to discern targets' weaknesses and motivations. She has been known to charm potential victims to learn of treasure hordes, then kill them quickly and horribly after the treasure is attained.

In her lair, Tiamat's court of five great wyrm dragons fight for her. The court is comprised of one dragon from each basic chromatic color, and each has maximum hit points.
If Tiamat suffers more than 150 hit points of damage in a combat she will automatically teleport without error to Avernus.

*Breath weapons/special abilities:* Tiamat's white great wyrm head breathes a cone of cold 70' long, 5' wide at the mouth, and 25' wide at the base. Creatures caught within the cone suffer 12d6 + 12 points of damage. The black head breathes a stream of acid 5' wide and 60' long. Those in the stream suffer 24d4 + 12 points of damage. The green head breathes a cloud of poisonous chlorine gas that is 50' long, 40' wide, and 30' high. Those in the cloud suffer 24d6 + 12. The blue head's breath weapon is a lightning bolt 5' wide at the mouth and 100' long. The bolt causes 24d8 + 12 points of damage. The most fearsome head, the red, breathes a gout of searing flame 90' long, 5' wide at the mouth, and 30' wide at the base. Those caught by the magical fire suffer 24d10 + 12 points of damage.

A successful save vs. breath weapon reduces the damage from any breath by one half, and creatures must make a saving throw for each individual breath weapon they are caught in. All saving throws are made at -3 because of the power of the attack. The five heads can breathe simultaneously, on separate targets or the same target, every other round.

Tiamat is immue to all fire, cold, acid, gas, and lightning attacks, and she is immune to non-magical and +1 weapons. She can travel astrally or ethereally at will. Further, she has the following abilities at will: _pyrotechnics_, _tongues_, _cause fear_, _polymorph self_, and _teleport without error_. Each day she can cast three wizard spells at each level from 1st through 7th.

Tiamat casts spells and uses her abilities at 18th level.

*Habitat/society:* Tiamat lives on Avernus, although she is able to live in virtually any clime and on nearly any plane. Her lair is a castle of immense proportions which she constructed magically out of molten lava and the bones of her victims. Although solid, the castle's exterior walls appear to flow like lava and cause most creatures to avoid the place.

Tiamat's court dwells in the castle. Sages believe the place is also populated by other guards, such as elementals, fiends, and unnamed creatures. The castle is an extension of the queen's personality -- its spires are twisted and grotesque, there are no windows, and the walls are studded with bits of sharp material and jagged bones which can injure all but the most wary. The macabre, yet impressive, structure is avoided by nearly all the inhabitants of Avernus.

The great evil dragon knows what is transpiring within every square inch of her castle and within many square miles beyond. Because of this, it is impossible to surprise her in her lair. Her treasure is vast and litters the castle, in some places it is so thick she has shaped it into walls and uses it to cover the floor. Tiamat has a precise inventory of her wealth -- down to each insignificant copper -- and she has spent decades mentally cataloging it so she knows what all the magical items can do. She uses some of the items to further her malign gains.

The queen of evil dragons spends nearly all her time within the castle. She remains knowledgable about what is transpiring on other worlds and planes through magical items, spies, and cults of humans and demi-humans she has bent to her will. On rare occasions when something has sparked her interest enough for personal investigation, she dons a human or demi-human guise and takes one member of her court, also disguised, with her. These instances have included skirmishes between various races, newly-unearthed treasure finds, and political struggles. Tiamat's favorite guises include a comely young elven woman and her escort, a young girl accompanied by her father, and an elderly sage with her grandson in tow. Sages believe she has also assumed the form of goblins, gnolls, lizardmen, and other creatures when attempting to rally others for battle. Some sages speculate that she has acted as various groups' leaders and kings, ordering the subjects to do her bidding.

*Ecology:* Tiamat is capable of eating anything. On Avernus she requires no sustenance, drawing her energy from the plane itself. However, when she travels to other worlds and planes she feasts upon creatures she defeats, molten objects, and the very ground. Her favorite sustenance, however, is helpless creatures; she feeds upon their abject terror before swallowing them.

Tiamat's enemies are numerous and include Bahamut and all good dragons. However, only Bahamut has been able to stand up to her might-and recorded conflicts with the king of good dragons have ended in stalemates.

Sages speculate Tiamat was born many hundred years ago during a war between evil dragons. The gods threw the combatants together into one body. And this new form demanded that the evil dragons no longer fight amongst themselves.

*Tiamat's Court:* The queen's court is comprised of five dragons-male great wyrms of red, black, white, green, and blue. The court is handpicked by the queen based on their loyalty and the amount of gifts and service they have provided. When a member of her court becomes too infirm, she takes the dragon to another plane, personally slays him, and immediately selects a replacement. Members of the court store their treasure within Tiamat's castle, in separate chambers which are considered their own territories.


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## Mortis (Jun 22, 2007)

What's with the smilies. 

<edit>never mind - pc acting up - there were lots of smilies in the tiamat entry that have disappeared now.   

Regards
Mortis


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

I have no idea. Those didn't appear in the scanned version, just when I hit "post". I had to manually edit them all out  .


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> <edit>never mind - pc acting up - there were lots of smilies in the tiamat entry that have disappeared now.




Not your PC. They _were_ there, but aren't now  .


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Whoa...that's a massive jump in power!

Maybe it's worth looking at Sardior as well, both in original and 3E forms, to get an idea where Gru's power might fall.


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

Should I post Sardior's stats from Dragon #37/Best of Dragon Magazine, Vol. III?

(The 3.0 version of Sardior can be found here.)


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Sure, if you've got them handy.  If not, I've got the Dragon Archive CD with me.


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## Echohawk (Jun 22, 2007)

(Edited slightly, since Sardior's details are mixed in with the descriptions and stats of the other neutral dragons.)

In proposing this new breed of dragon, I am assuming that all these types conform to the characteristics of dragons in general, except where otherwise noted. In addition, all of these dragons share the following standard characteristics.

FREQUENCY: Very rare.
NO. APPEARING: 1-3, except in the case of the Ruby Dragon.
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon + possible magic use, except for Sardior, who definitely uses magic.
ALIGNMENT: Neutral.

The Neutral dragons are basically reclusive creatures, dwelling in out-of-the-way places, and not too receptive to unexpected visitors. Like all dragons, they get their kicks from lolling around on a pile of treasure. Being named after precious and semi-precious stones, they are especially fond of gems and jewelry. They are generally smaller and slower than other dragons, but make up for this with their outstanding intelligence and overwhelming personalities.

The Neutral dragons are all very charismatic and suave. They delight in riddling talk, and seek to entrap the creatures they encounter by charming them with their voices. Anyone not engaged in such things as combat who listens to the dragon's voice faces a 10% cumulative chance per round of being entranced. While he is entranced, the dragon has a chance of implanting a suggestion in his mind. The dragon gets one attempt per creature to suggest, and if the creature makes his saving throw by rolling the required percentage, the charm is broken for 6 rounds. The dragon will try to keep him talking, in order to try again, but this time will get only a 5% cumulative chance per round of charming the creature(s). If the dragon fails in his suggestion this time, the creature cannot be charmed again.

Going along with their intelligence and charisma, all Neutral dragons have a 50% chance of being psionically endowed. They are also telepathic, although they cannot communicate telepathically with non-telepathic creatures or characters with an intelligence below 17. Magic-using Neutral dragons employ both Magic-User and Druidic spells.

Being smaller than other dragons, Neutral dragons' fear aura in attacking is saved against at a +4 to all opponents. Neutral dragons cannot polymorph themselves, unless they know the spell. They do have the innate ability to blink 6 times per day, however, as in the spell. Particulars about each type of dragon are listed below.

RUBY

ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 12"/32"
HIT DICE: 12 (96 hp)
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE: 100% H,Ix3,Ux5
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/5-40
INTELLIGENCE: Supragenius
SIZE: 36' long
PSIONICS: 344
A/D modes: All/all
CHANCE OF
  Speaking: 100%
  Magic-use: 100%
  Sleeping: 5%
SUGGESTION: 75%

It is assumed that as dragons' M-U spells are of a special, verbal-only kind, so also the Neutral dragons' Druidic spells are of a special kind, attuned to their natures, and not requiring mistletoe, etc.

PSIONIC DISCIPLINES (where applicable)

Sardior the Ruby Dragon has 4 minor and 3 major disciplines, as follows -- Domination, ESP, Invisibility, Levitation, Molecular Rearrangement, Energy Control, Dimension Walk. All Neutral dragons consider their level of mastery for all disciplines to be equivalent to twice their age level.

SARDIOR, THE RUBY DRAGON

This is not a breed of dragon, but a unique individual. Sardior the Ruby Dragon is the Prince of Neutral Dragons. He dwells in a magical castle that roams the night sky, high up in the atmosphere. He keeps his castle moving so that it is always in earth's shadow. Often, when Sardior's castle is sighted, sages think they are seeing a reddish star making unusual
conjunctions with other stars in the night sky.

Sardior keeps a court of 5 thanes, one each of the various breeds of neutral dragons. Their names are: Hrodel (a female Crystal dragon), psionic disciplines of Empathy and Invisibility; Tithonnas (male Topaz dragon), disciplines of Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, and Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions; Smargad (male Emerald dragon), disciplines of Domination, Hypnosis, and Teleportation; Charsima (female Sapphire dragon), disciplines of Cell Adjustment, ESP, Suspend Animation, and Etherealness; and Aleithilithos (male Amethyst dragon), disciplines of Detection of Good/Evil, Detection
of Magic, Object Reading, Energy Control, and Dimension Walk.

Occasionally (10%), one of these dragons will roam the earth without Sardior and the other thanes. If encountered, the thane may reward beings that find favor with it, usually in the form of gems, but sometimes in the granting of a boon.

All of Sardior's thanes are huge, ancient dragons. It must be remembered, of course, that Sardior and company are a stay-at-
home lot, not given much to interfering with others' businesses. All the Neutral dragons honor Sardior, but being what they are, his sovereignty does not much affect their daily lives of treasure-mongering. All are agreed. however, that Sardior is the most brilliant conversationalist and raconteur of all dragons.

Sardior has two breath weapons which he can employ twice per day each: a shriek (like an Amethyst dragon) or a dazzling cloud (like a Crystal dragon). He has a ruddy appearance, but his handsome features and general grace ensure that only a very inexperienced dragon-hunter would mistake him for a red dragon.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

Heh...it's still really hard to tell where he fits in.   Maybe we should just peg him at CR 25 like Bahamut and Tiamat have in their 3E non-deity versions and work from there.  

Thoughts?


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## Mortis (Jun 25, 2007)

CR 25 looks like a good place to start. 

I did look at Mystara's dragon ruler conversions (1, 2, 3, 4) for inspiration but they are a little more powerful. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

I'd say both Bahamut and Tiamat are under-CRed at 25.  

Anyhoo, to start Gru off, let's look at the HD and ability scores of his contemporaries.

Bahamut
53 HD
Str 53, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 35, Wis 36, Cha 35

Tiamat
49 HD
Str 49, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 28, Wis 25, Cha 28

Great Wyrm Iron Dragon
40 HD
Str 47, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 30 

Great Wyrm Gold Dragon
41 HD
Str 47, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 32, Wis 33, Cha 32 

Great Wyrm Red Dragon
40 HD
Str 45, Dex 10, Con 31, Int 26, Wis 27, Cha 26

So it looks like Bahamut is +6 Str, +6 Con, +3 mental stats over the toughest great wyrm of his grouping.

Tiamat is +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, -2 Wis, +2 Cha over the toughest great wyrm of her grouping.

So for Gru, we could do something similar, perhaps +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha over the great wyrm iron dragon, giving him scores of Str 51, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 32, Wis 33, Cha 32.

I'd set his HD no lower than 46.

Thoughts?


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## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So for Gru, we could do something similar, perhaps +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha over the great wyrm iron dragon, giving him scores of Str 51, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 32, Wis 33, Cha 32.



Looks good to me



> I'd set his HD no lower than 46.



48 feels right.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Starting based on those HD and ability scores...

*Gruaghlothor, the Supreme Dragon* 
Colossal Dragon (Fire)
Hit Dice: 48d12+576 (888 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), burrow 40 ft., fly 200 ft. (clumsy)
AC: x (-8 size, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +48/+84
Attack: Bite +60 melee (4d8+20)
Full Attack: Bite +60 melee (4d8+20) and 2 claws +55 melee (4d6+10) and 2 wings +55 melee (2d8+10) and tail slap +55 melee (4d6+30)
Space/Reach: 30 ft./20 ft. (30 ft. with bite)
Special Attacks: Breath weapons, crush 4d8+30, frightful presence, spells, spell-like abilities, tail sweep 2d8+30
Special Qualities: Alternate form, blindsense X ft., damage reduction 15/chaotic and epic(?), darkvision X ft., immunity to fire, paralysis, and sleep, keen senses, spell resistance X, vulnerabilitiy to cold
Saves: Fort +38, Ref +26, Will +37
Abilities: Str 51, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 32, Wis 33, Cha 32
Skills: 17 at 51 ranks
Feats: 17
Environment: Underground
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: 25?
Treasure: x
Alignment: Always lawful neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Alternate Form (Su): Gruaghlothor can assume any animal or humanoid form of Medium size or smaller as a standard action three times per day. Gruaghlothor can remain in his animal or humanoid form until he chooses to assume a new one or return to his natural form.

Flesh to Iron (Sp): Gruaghlothor can use this ability twice per day. It is similar to a flesh to stone spell, except that the victim is turned into an iron statue rather than stone. As an iron object, it is vulnerable to rust attacks, such as that of a rust monster or a rusting grasp spell. The condition can be reversed by stone to flesh and similar effects. This is the equivalent of a 7th-level spell.

Spell-Like Abilities:  At will—heat metal; 3/day—detect thoughts, stone shape, transmute rock to mud, wall of iron.  Caster level 20th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Mortis (Jun 29, 2007)

Am I just being nasty if I suggest a Flesh to Iron breath weapon.   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Am I just being nasty if I suggest a Flesh to Iron breath weapon.




Yes.    

Speaking of which...



> Gruaghlothor has three breath weapons, each usable twice a day: a cloud of sleep gas 60' long, 50' wide, and 40' high; a cone of superheated sparks 100' long, 5' wide at the dragon's mouth, and 40' wide at the end, doing 24d12 +24 hp damage; or a bolt of solid stone 30' long and 5' wide, fired out to a 120' from the dragon's mouth, doing 24d12 + 24 hp damage. Creatures caught in the gas must save vs. breath weapon or fall asleep regardless of hit dice. Creatures caught in either the spark cone or in the path of the stone bolt are allowed a save vs. breath weapon for half damage.




So basically he's got the breath weapons of an iron dragon and one unique one.  Here's the iron's...

Breath Weapon (Su): An iron dragon has two types of breath weapon, a cone of superheated sparks (dealing half electricity and half fire damage), and a cone of sleep gas. Creatures within a cone of sleep gas must succeed on a Will save or fall asleep, regardless of HD, for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon.

The stone bolt does the same damage as the superheated sparks.  Should it just be a line of bludgeoning damage?


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## Mortis (Jun 29, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes.



So the secondary rusting breath wepon is also out   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> So the secondary rusting breath wepon is also out




Most likely.    

It might be fun to craft a new Uberdragon sometime, maybe by poll, where we could go nutty with breath weapons.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Reviving this thread as well with BOZ's blessing.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Gather Information...

<edit>boss turned up - had to save post early 

...Intimidate, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (geography), Knowledge (history), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival, Use Magic Device

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Also...Disguise, Gather Information, and Jump are considered class skills for iron dragons.

So...
Appraise 51, Bluff 51, Concentration 34, Diplomacy 51, Disguise 34, Gather Information 51, Intimidate 51, Jump 34, Knowledge (arcana) 51, Knowledge (geography) 51, Knowledge (history) 51, Knowledge (the planes) 51, Listen 51, Search 51, Sense Motive 51, Spellcraft 51, Spot 51, Survival, Use Magic Device 51

How's that?


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's that?



Looks good, although what he's going to disguise himself as is anyone's guess 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Looks good, although what he's going to disguise himself as is anyone's guess




A red dragon?    

I'm betting he'll only rely on that skill in alternate form.    

I just noticed that I didn't assign any ranks to Survival.  Here's how it currently breaks down after synergy and ability score modifiers....

Appraise +62, Bluff +62, Concentration +46, Diplomacy +68, Disguise +45 (+51 acting), Gather Information +62, Intimidate +68, Jump +58, Knowledge (arcana) +62, Knowledge (geography) +62, Knowledge (history) +62, Knowledge (the planes) +62, Listen +62, Search +62, Sense Motive +62, Spellcraft +68 (+74 scrolls), Spot +62, Survival +11 (+17 on other planes, +17 to avoid getting lost, +17 following tracks), Use Magic Device +62

Wanna strip 10 off Concentration, 6 off Diplomacy, and 4 off Intimidate and add those to Survival?


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Wanna strip 10 off Concentration, 6 off Diplomacy, and 4 off Intimidate and add those to Survival?



Sure

<edit>or we could take 10 off Disguise because if he only uses it with alternate form won't he get a +10 bonus as its magical?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

SR 30 like Bahamut and Tiamat?

Natural armor?  Tiamat has +48 natural armor; Bahamut has +52; great wyrm iron is +39.

Feats (he gets 17)?

Bahamut's Feats: Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Fly-By Attack, Hover, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability (sunburst), Snatch, Wingover   (3.5 conversion guide does not mention additional feats for him)

Tiamat's Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Fly-By Attack, Greater Spell Penetration, Hover, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Overrun, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability (domination), Snatch, Spell Penetration, Wingover

In Common:  Alertness, Blind-Fight, Combat Casting, Combat Expertise, Fly-By Attack, Hover, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-like Ability, Snatch, Wingover

If we use the common feats, he'll have 5 more to select.  Awesome Blow and Improved Bull Rush seem decent.  Others?


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> SR 30 like Bahamut and Tiamat?



I'd say so



> Natural armor?  Tiamat has +48 natural armor; Bahamut has +52



Split the difference, 50?



> If we use the common feats, he'll have 5 more to select.  Awesome Blow and Improved Bull Rush seem decent.  Others?



I'm happy with that, for the three addition feats, we could have Dire Charge [epic], Multiattack, and Improved Multiattack.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

All that sounds good, except Improved Multiattack, which I don't believe is in the SRD.  We could go with Epic Prowess to achieve an almost similar result.  Sound good?


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All that sounds good, except Improved Multiattack, which I don't believe is in the SRD.



It's in the online hypertext version - possibly a mistake (oh it's an epic feat or at least in the epic section).

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> It's in the online hypertext version - possibly a mistake (oh it's an epic feat or at least the epic section).




Cool.  That's good enough for me.

For the Quicken SLA, wall of iron?


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For the Quicken SLA, wall of iron?



Seems appropriate.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

> He can speak the tongue of his species, the tongue common to all ferrous dragons, and has an ability to communicate with any intelligent creature (as can an iron dragon).




We didn't give anything special to the iron, but I'd say telepathy for big G.



> He also gains the ability to passwall up to three times a day.




We missed that.    



> He casts spells as a 22nd-level wizard and has the following spells: five 1st level, five 2nd, five 3rd, five 4th, three 5th, two 6th, and one 7th.






> Most ferrous dragons do not serve deities. None have innate access to domain spells like some of their metallic and chromatic counterparts.




Spells: Bahamut is a 20th-level sorcerer and a 20th-level cleric with access to the Good and Air domains. (Bahamut also gains the granted powers associated with those domains.) In his natural form, Bahamut can cast spells with but a word.

Spells: Tiamat is a 20th-level sorcerer and a 20th-level cleric with access to the Evil and Law domains. (Tiamat also gains the granted powers associated with those domains.) In her natural form, Tiamat can cast spells with but a word.



> All ferrous dragons are lawful, and they follow a strict hierarchy. Each dragon is part of a family, with two or three families grouped together in a single clan. Each clan is led by its most powerful member, and a sovereign great wyrm of each species leads all of the clans of a given kind of ferrous dragons. These sovereigns report directly to Gruaghlothor, the Supreme Dragon. Additionally, Gruaghlothor has assigned a hierarchy between the species, from highest to lowest: iron, chromium, cobalt, tungsten, nickel. Although a member of one species has no claim to leadership over one of another, dragons lower on the hierarchy defer to the wisdom and judgment of those of higher rank and equal or greater age.




Organization: Solitary or troupe (Tiamat and 1d6 chromatic dragons of age categories d8+4)
Organization: Solitary or troupe (Bahamut and seven great gold wyrms)

So maybe:  Solitary or troupe (Gruaghlothor and one sovereign ferrous dragon of each type: chromium, cobalt, iron, nickel, and tungsten)

Treasure?
Treasure: When traveling, Bahamut carries his magic items and 1d8+4 gems of various sizes. Bahamut's palace contains 2d4 level 20 treasures.
Treasure: When traveling, Tiamat carries her magic items and 2d12+2 gems of various sizes. Her lair contains 2d4 level 20 treasures.

Also, both Tiamat and Bahamut have these two abilities...

See Invisibility (Ex): Bahamut has the extraordinary ability to see invisible creatures. This works like the see invisibility spell with a range of 1,600 feet. This ability is always active.

Water Breathing (Ex): This ability allows Bahamut to breathe underwater indefinitely. He can freely use his breath weapons, spells, and other abilities while submerged.

Do we want either?  The former makes more sense than the latter in his case.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

No takers?  Everyone afwaid of the big, bwad dwagon?     

Summarizing...

Telepathy 120 ft.

Spells: Gruaghlothor casts spells as a 20th-level sorcerer.  In his natural form, Gruaghlothor can cast spells with but a word.

Organization: Solitary or troupe (Gruaghlothor and one sovereign ferrous dragon of each type: chromium, cobalt, iron, nickel, and tungsten)

See Invisibility (Ex): Gruaghlothor has the extraordinary ability to see invisible creatures. This works like the see invisibility spell with a range of 1,600 feet. This ability is always active.

All good?


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2007)

Heheh, just a lot going on in this thread.  

That all looks pretty good, though losing 20 CL of cleric spell-casting is a lot compared to  B & T.  Of course, G isn't a deity either, so maybe that's ok.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> That all looks pretty good, though losing 20 CL of cleric spell-casting is a lot compared to  B & T.  Of course, G isn't a deity either, so maybe that's ok.




Keep in mind, too, that he could only cast up to 7th-level spells, so he's getting a bit of a boost.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

Treasure?
Treasure: When traveling, Bahamut carries his magic items and 1d8+4 gems of various sizes. Bahamut's palace contains 2d4 level 20 treasures.
Treasure: When traveling, Tiamat carries her magic items and 2d12+2 gems of various sizes. Her lair contains 2d4 level 20 treasures.

Maybe...

Treasure: When traveling, Gruaghlothor carries his magic items and 3d4+1 gems of various sizes. Gruaghlothor's lair contains 2d4 level 20 treasures.


CR 25 like Bahamut and Tiamat (non-deity versions)?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

Reasonable enough.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

Updated.

All done?


----------



## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

I think so, actually.


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## Mortis (Dec 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All done?



I'd say so.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

I've just seen which two conversions are next in the queue (unless Shade springs a surprise on us) and boy they should be fun. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I've just seen which two conversions are next in the queue (unless Shade springs a surprise on us) and boy they should be fun.




I'll find something to "hold us over" until you get back.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

Here's one.    

*Feng Huang*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any land
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVE TIME: Any
DIET: Herbivore
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (16)
TREASURE: B, H, U, Z
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVEMENT: 12, Fl 48
HIT DICE: 22
THAC0: 7
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-10/3-18
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: G (100')
MORALE: Fanatic (17)
XP VALUE:  24,000

The feng huang, also known as the oriental phoenix, is perhaps the most magnificent of all feathered creatures. It is aloof, arrogant, and self-absorbed, fully cognizant of its own great beauty and awesome power.

The feng huang resembles a normal phoenix, but it has a shorter bill and neck, and larger wings. It averages 100 feet long from bill to tail, with a wingspan nearly twice the length of its body. It has a finned tail like that of a fish and a multi-colored crown. Its feathers are blue, red, green, yellow, and orange.  Black and white stripes run the length of its belly. Feng huang can speak all human languages as well as those of all feathered creatures.  Their voices sound like flutes.

Combat: Feng huang prefer to avoid combat, but are extremely aggressive if attacked. Though they can attack with their beak and front claws in the same round, feng huang prefer to attack with spells. They can cast fireballs twice per round and flame lightning once per round, but must make successful "to hit" rolls. The fireballs cause 2d10 hit points of damage and are +4 to hit. Flame lighting is a bolt of fire 50 feet long that inflicts 3d10 hit points of damage. The feng huang's most destructive attack is fire storm, which it can cast twice per day. The fire storm affects an area 1 mile square and 100 yards high, as if cast by a 20th level wizard. It can also cast fire quench twice per day affecting an area twice the size of its fire storm. It can cast affect normal fires, control temperature in a 100-foot radius, animate fire once per round; fire shield, fire seeds, heat metal, produce fire,  pyrotechnics, fire rain, all three times per day; wall of fire, melt metal, incendiary cloud. all once per day. All spells are cast at 20th level. It can plane shift and turn invisible at will.

It automatically detects charms, evil, magic and alignment an continually radiates protection from evil in a 100-foot radius. The feng huang can spread its wings to dispel illusion or dispel magic.

It can be hit only by + 3 or better weapons. Its dance expels and drives away evil spirits as a 40th level caster, and this is effective against all but the most powerful of entities, such as one contained in an artifact or relic. If reduced to 0 hit points or less, its remains convert to a jade-like egg from which a new feng huang arises in 3d10 days.

Habitat/Society: Feng huang rarely appear in the Prime Material plane, making their lairs in alternate planes of existence, usually far away from other creatures. They build elaborate nests of spun gold and silver in the tops of gigantic wu t'ung, ornamental trees with bell-shaped white and brown flowers. Feng huang love treasure, especially gem stones of all kinds. Female feng huang lay one egg annually, but there is only a 1% chance that any given egg will hatch.

The appearance of a feng huang is variously associated with good fortune and disaster, owing to the creature's unpredictable nature. Tales are told of feng lung guiding lost ships to safe ports, then setting the ports afire before returning to their home planes. In the Prime Material plane, feng lung are equally at home in any climate, since they are unaffected by changes in temperature or weather.

Ecology: Feng lung are strict herbivores. They especially enjoy the seeds of wu t'ung flowers as well as stalks of ripe bamboo.  They prefer to drink sweet water, such as fruit juices or streams flavored with honey. Their feathers are used in religious ceremonies of primitive cultures, though they are also coveted by collectors.  Their eggs are the favorite food of certain spirit folk. Feng lung are also sought by the desperately ill, as they can cure diseases of any type with a touch of their wings. However, this effect is only produced if the feng lung so wills it, and they are usually reluctant to do so unless first offered a great treasure (at least 50,000 ch'ien in gold or gems).

Originally appeared in Test of the Samurai (1989)


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

Increasing a phoenix to Gargantuan yields the following:

+13 natural
Full Attack: 2 claws (3d6+12/19-20) or bite +23 melee (4d6+12)
Abilities: Str 34, Dex 14, Con 23, Int 18, Wis 17, Cha 21

Look good?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

I think that looks good.  What's the atk bonus on the claws?

Special abilities are going to be fun with this one!


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I listed all the phoenix's SA and SD, but some may not apply here.



> Feng huang can speak all human languages as well as those of all feathered creatures. Their voices sound like flutes.




Telepathy (Su): A phoenix can communicate telepathically with any nonavian creature within 60 feet. It can also speak normally with any avians.



> Feng huang prefer to avoid combat, but are extremely aggressive if attacked. Though *they can attack with their beak and front claws in the same round*, feng huang prefer to attack with spells.




Change the full attack line to "and" rather than "or"?



> They can cast fireballs twice per round and flame lightning once per round, but must make successful "to hit" rolls. The fireballs cause 2d10 hit points of damage and are +4 to hit. Flame lighting is a bolt of fire 50 feet long that inflicts 3d10 hit points of damage.




Unique supernatural abilities rather than spell-likes?



> The feng huang's most destructive attack is fire storm, which it can cast twice per
> day. The fire storm affects an area 1 mile square and 100 yards high, as if cast by a 20th level wizard. It can also cast fire quench twice per day affecting an area twice the size of its fire storm. It can cast affect normal fires, control temperature in a 100-foot radius, animate fire once per round; fire shield, fire seeds, heat metal, produce fire, pyrotechnics, fire rain, all three times per day; wall of fire, melt metal, incendiary cloud. all once per day. All spells are cast at 20th level. It can plane shift and turn invisible at will.
> 
> It automatically detects charms, evil, magic and alignment an continually radiates protection from evil in a 100-foot radius. The feng huang can spread its wings to dispel illusion or dispel magic.




Phoenix Spell-Like Abilities: At will--blindness/deafness (DC 17), blink, blur, color spray (DC 16), cure light wounds (DC 16), dancing lights, death ward, find the path, find traps, fire seeds (using its own blood rather than holly berries as a material component; no acorn grenades, DC 21), heal (DC 21), invisibility, misdirection (DC 17), neutralize poison, produce flame, remove fear, remove curse, see invisibility; 1/day--incendiary cloud (DC 23), reincarnate, pyrotechnics (DC 17), summon nature's ally IX, veil (DC 21), wall of fire. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

After 10 rounds of ritual and preparation--dismissal (DC 20), dispel evil (DC 19), dispel magic. Caster level 40th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The following abilities are always active on the phoenix's person, as the spells (caster level 20th); detect evil, detect magic, protection from evil. They can be dispelled, but the phoenix can reactivate them as a free action.



> It can be hit only by + 3 or better weapons.




A phoenix has damage reduction 15/magic and cold iron.



> Its dance expels and drives away evil spirits as a 40th level caster, and this is effective against all but the most powerful of entities, such as one contained in an artifact or relic. If reduced to 0 hit points or less, its remains convert to a jade-like egg from which a new feng huang arises in 3d10 days.




Immolation (Su): When it knows that death is near, a phoenix immolates itself as a full-round action. This produces a cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 22 half). Half of this damage is fire; the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction by protection from elements (fire), fire shield (chill shield), or similar magic. This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, from the ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Telepathy (Su): A phoenix can communicate telepathically with any nonavian creature within 60 feet. It can also speak normally with any avians.



I'd like something more like
Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.



> Change the full attack line to "and" rather than "or"?



Sure.



> Unique supernatural abilities rather than spell-likes?



I think so, yes.  We'll need to figure out exactly what we want these to do, also.

Seems like we also need to modify the SLAs a bit from the phoenix.



> A phoenix has damage reduction 15/magic and cold iron.



Do you want to bump that up to epic and cold iron or just increase the DR to 20?



> Immolation (Su): When it knows that death is near, a phoenix immolates itself as a full-round action. This produces a cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 22 half). Half of this damage is fire; the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction by protection from elements (fire), fire shield (chill shield), or similar magic. This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, from the ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round. The save DC is Constitution-based.




The original does not have the big fire storm bit.  How about:

Rebirth (Su): When a feng huang is reduced to 0 hp, it does not die.  Instead, its body disappears in a flash of (harmless) flame and smoke, replaced by a jade-like egg.  The egg hatches into a feng huang in 3d10 days, which then magically grows to maturity in one day.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd like something more like
> Tongues (Su): All angels can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level equal to angel’s Hit Dice). This ability is always active.




Hmmm...since it could only speak "all human languages", I'm not sure I like going the tongues route.   Maybe give it Common, Dwarven, Elven, and Undercommon, as well as its "speak with avians"?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Do you want to bump that up to epic and cold iron or just increase the DR to 20?




Epic.  DR x/magic is almost worthless at low levels, and guaranteed worthless at epic levels.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> The original does not have the big fire storm bit.  How about:
> 
> Rebirth (Su): When a feng huang is reduced to 0 hp, it does not die.  Instead, its body disappears in a flash of (harmless) flame and smoke, replaced by a jade-like egg.  The egg hatches into a feng huang in 3d10 days, which then magically grows to maturity in one day.




I like it.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

What about tongues limited to avian and humanoid (human) intelligent creatures?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> What about tongues limited to avian and humanoid (human) intelligent creatures?




Hmmm...let me think on that a bit.



> They can cast fireballs twice per round and flame lightning once per round, but must make successful "to hit" rolls. The fireballs cause 2d10 hit points of damage and are +4 to hit. Flame lighting is a bolt of fire 50 feet long that inflicts 3d10 hit points of damage.




Spit Flame (Su):  As a standard action, a fenh huang can spit two balls of fire to a range of x feet.  This requires a ranged touch attack, and deals 2d10 points of fire damage on a successful hit.

Breath Weapon (Su):  Once per round, 50-foot line, damage 3d10 fire, Reflex DC X half.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Those look good!

SLAs: definitely invisibility and plane shift at will.  The 1/rd abilities, which I would make at will, do not seem to appear in the SRD (control normal fire, control temperature, animate fire).  The 3/day abilities work (except for fire rain) if we swap "produce flame" for "produce fire."  1/day abilities again work except for melt metal.  So do we want to write Su abilities for the missing ones or substitute appropriate spells?


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Those look good!
> 
> SLAs: definitely invisibility and plane shift at will.  The 1/rd abilities, which I would make at will, do not seem to appear in the SRD (control normal fire, control temperature, animate fire).  The 3/day abilities work (except for fire rain) if we swap "produce flame" for "produce fire."  1/day abilities again work except for melt metal.  So do we want to write Su abilities for the missing ones or substitute appropriate spells?




animate fire/control normal fire = pyrotechnics?
control temperature = we recently made a Su ability for another creature of this 
fire rain = incendiary cloud? 
melt metal = replace with heat metal?


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## GrayLinnorm (Dec 20, 2007)

Animate fire is in Oriental Adventures and Spell Compendium.


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> animate fire/control normal fire = pyrotechnics?
> control temperature = we recently made a Su ability for another creature of this
> fire rain = incendiary cloud?
> melt metal = replace with heat metal?




The thing is, it already has the SLAs you want to use as replacements, so we might need to go with Su abilities.  I don't mind putting in a sidebar about OA/SC and animate fire, but there should be something from the SRD.  Here's the list of current SLAs, with the ones needing replacement in parentheses:

At will: (affect normal fires), (control temperature in a 100-foot radius), (animate fire), plane shift, invisibility
3/day: fire shield, fire seeds, heat metal, produce flame, pyrotechnics, (fire rain)
1/day: wall of fire, (melt metal), incendiary cloud

Fire storm in 3.5 is significantly smaller volume than listed, also, which maybe means we want a unique special ability.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2007)

Ahh, I see.   Here are some alternatives I found from other creatures:

Melt Weapons (Ex): Any metal weapon that strikes a magmin must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or melt away into slag. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Control Temperature (Su): As a swift action, Aeraldoth can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 100-foot-radius centered on him. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, so he could, for example, lower the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds.

Lower Temperature (Su): As a free action, once per round, the shatjan can lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 10-foot radius centered on the shatjan. All normal effects for cold weather apply. When the shatjan chooses to end this effect, the temperature returns to normal at a rate of 10 degrees per round. If the shatjan uses this ability again, the effects stack.

We could replace animate fire with a supernatural ability that allows it to transform fire into an equivalently-sized fire elemental.  

Affect normal fires is pretty close to the control flames psionic power.


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2007)

Your suggestions for control temperature, animate fire, and affect normal fires sound pretty good if we want to go the route of Su abilities.  I'm not sure if the old spell melt weapon is the same as the magmin ability, though.  I'll try to look that up tonight.


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2007)

Updated.

Any luck with melt weapon?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2007)

Forgot about it till now, but actually no.   I was just looking in a PDF someone posted in the general RPG forum of 1e spells, but it's not there.  Do you think the magmin ability would be about right?


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2007)

I think it's fine since it is all about fire.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

So...

Go with melt weapon as the magmin, control temp as Aeraldoth, affect normal fires by copying out the psionic power, and a new Su for animate fires.  

Melt Weapons (Ex): Any metal weapon that strikes a feng huang must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or melt away into slag. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Control Temperature (Su): At will, as a swift action, a feng huang can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 100-foot-radius centered on him. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, so he could, for example, lower the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds.

Affect Fires (Su): A feng huang can establish control over a single nonmagical fire of up to Medium size at will as a standard action and can maintain control on successive rounds by maintaining concentration.  While the feng huang has control over the fire, it may keep the fire burning (even in the absence of fuel), cause it to move 30 ft per round, or enlarge it up to Huge size.  When the feng huang loses concentration, the fire returns to its normal size or goes out (if it has run out of fuel or moved to  a region without fuel).

If the fire moves into a space occupied by another creature, that creature may attempt a DC 26 Reflex save to a space adjacent to the fire.  If unsuccessful, the creature takes 3d6 points of fire damage and catches fire.  The creature may make a new save attempt each round. Normally, putting out a fire on oneself requires a DC 15 Reflex save.  If a feng huang is controlling that fire and causing it to burn, extinguishing the fire requires a DC 26 Reflex save.

The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Animate fire (Su): A feng huang can cause a fire to transform into an equally sized fire elemental at will as a standard action.  The fire elemental obeys the feng huang (as if summoned by a summon monster spell).  After 10 minutes, the elemental reverts to a normal fire.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Heh.  I forgot to mention that I'd updated Homebrews, and it looks like we arrived at nearly identical results.    

Average maneuverability like the phoenix?

Skills: 6 at 25 ranks (150 total)
Feats: 8 (1 can be epic)

Phoenix skills and feats...
Skills: Concentration +25, Diplomacy +28, Knowledge (arcana) +27, Knowledge (history) +27, Spellcraft +29, Spot +26
Feats: Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Flyby Attack, Heighten Spell, Improved Critical (claw), Improved InitiativeB, Iron WillB, Maximize Spell


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

A few things we missed...



> It automatically detects charms, evil, magic and alignment an continually radiates protection from evil in a 100-foot radius. The feng huang can spread its wings to dispel illusion or dispel magic.






> Its dance expels and drives away evil spirits as a 40th level caster, and this is effective against all but the most powerful of entities, such as one contained in an artifact or relic.






> Feng lung are also sought by the desperately ill, as they can cure diseases of any type with a touch of their wings. However, this effect is only produced if the feng lung so wills it, and they are usually reluctant to do so unless first offered a great treasure (at least 50,000 ch'ien in gold or gems).


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Hmmm.  Skills and feats the same as phoenix are probably ok, maybe swapping Knowledge (history) out for Knowledge (the planes).  

Cure disease (Su): With the touch of its wings, a feng huang can cure any disease, even those resistant to magical cures (such as requiring a caster level check to be cured).

As flavor: Feng huang usually refuse to use their cure disease ability unless first offered a great treasure (at least 50000 gp worth).

Need to work on the rest.


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## Shroomy (Jan 3, 2008)

Definitely give it an aura that corresponds to a magic circle against evil affect.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

I swapped out Diplomacy for Sense Motive, since it is more focused on itself.

Since it doesn't cast spells, many of the phoenix's feats aren't useful.

How about:

Epic Will, Flyby Attack, Hover, Improved Critical (claw), Improved Initiative, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (invisibility), Snatch, Wingover



> It automatically detects charms, evil, magic and alignment an continually radiates protection from evil in a 100-foot radius. The feng huang can spread its wings to dispel illusion or dispel magic.






> Its dance expels and drives away evil spirits as a 40th level caster, and this is effective against all but the most powerful of entities, such as one contained in an artifact or relic.




It looks like the standard phoenix covers this in its Spell-Like Abilities entry...

After 10 rounds of ritual and preparation--dismissal (DC 20), dispel evil (DC 19), dispel magic. Caster level 40th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

The following abilities are always active on the phoenix's person, as the spells (caster level 20th); detect evil, detect magic, protection from evil. They can be dispelled, but the phoenix can reactivate them as a free action.

We need to revisit this...



> The feng huang's most destructive attack is fire storm, which it can cast twice per day. The fire storm affects an area 1 mile square and 100 yards high, as if cast by a 20th level wizard.




Fire storm at caster level 20 would affect 40 10-foot cubes and deal 20d6 damage.

Or we could borrow from the regular phoenix's immolation ability...

Immolation (Su): When it knows that death is near, a phoenix immolates itself as a full-round action. This produces a cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of damage (Reflex DC 22 half). Half of this damage is fire; the rest results directly from divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction by protection from elements (fire), fire shield (chill shield), or similar magic. This action kills the original phoenix and produces a new one, fully grown and unharmed, from the ashes. This new bird arrives at the end of the round. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

And go with...

Flame Storm (Su):  Twice per day, a feng huang can unleash a deadly cloud of flame in a 20-foot-high, 15-foot-radius spread. Each creature in the area takes 40d6 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half).  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

Skills and feat revisions seem good.

Let's make dispel magic an at will ability.  I don't think "spreading its wings" requires 10 roudns of preparation. 

I'm fine with either the Su flame storm ability or just fire storm at CL 20.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x  (A standard phoenix is CR 24 and size Large.  Increasing to Gargantuan would normally increase CR by 2.)

Treasure: x

It had types B, H, U, and Z.  The standard phoenix has "None", so it doesn't help here.

B:
1-8 1,000s of copper pieces: 50% 
1-6 1,000s of silver pieces: 25% 
1-4 1,000s of electrum pieces: 25%
1-3 1,000s of gold pieces: 25%
1-8 gems: 30%
1-4 jewelry: 20%
Maps or Magic Items: Sword, armor, or misc. weapon: 10%

H:
5-30 1,000s of copper pieces: 25%
1-100 1,000s of silver pieces: 40% 
10-40 1,000s of electrum pieces: 40%
10-60 1,000s of gold pieces: 55%
5-50 100s of platinum pieces: 25%
1-100 gems: 50%
10-40 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 4 plus 1 potion & 1 scroll: 15%

U:
10-80 gems: 90%
5-30 jewelry: 80%
Maps or Magic Items: 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%

Z:
1-3 1,000s of copper pieces: 20% 
1-4 1,000s of silver pieces: 25% 
1-4 1,000s of electrum pieces: 25%
1-4 1,000s of gold pieces: 30%
1-6 100s of platinum pieces: 30%
10-60 gems: 55%
5-30 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 3 magic: 50%

Assuming CR 26, this looks like double standard.

Alignment: Always (?) chaotic neutral 

Advancement: None?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

Special abilities are probably on par with the phoenix or a little better, so CR 26 sounds fine.  Double standard treasure, always CN, no advancement sound good.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

Updated.  Done?


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## freyar (Jan 4, 2008)

I think so!


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

*Ilsidahur (Demon Lord)*
Freq:  Unique
# App: 1
AC: -3
Move: 12"/15"
HP:  131
% in Lair: 55%
Treasure Type:  0, P, R, X
# Att:  5
Dmg/Att:  2-8/2-8/1-10/1-4/1-6
SA: See below
SD: +1 or better weapon to hit; see below
MR: 60%
Int:  Genius
Alignment:  Chaotic evil
Size: L (8' tall)
Psionics: Nil

Ilsidahur is a demon lord notable mostly for his meddling on the Prime Material plane in ages past.  His principal servants are the bar-lgura, and his special lieutenants are Type IV demons.  Ilsidahur cannot be called to this Prime Material plane by the utterance of his name, because of enchantments worked by the magician Tselibor.  This restriction does not apply to alternate worlds, however, where he continues to spread chaos among mankind.

This demon has the following powers, usable once per round at will, at the 16th level of use unless noted otherwise:  animate dead monsters (ape skeletons and zombies only), darkness 20' radius, detect illusion, detect invisiblity, dispel magic, entangle, hallucinatory terrain, levitate, permanent illusion, plant growth, polymorph self, spectral force, telekinesis (2,500 lbs.), teleport without error, and tongues.  Ilsidahur may gate in 1-4 bar-lgura (60%) or 1-2 Type IV demons (40%) with a 75% chance of success, in lieu of any other activity for one round.  His piercing scream causes fear (per the spell) in all within hearing range (or within one mile outdoors).

Ilsidahur appears as an ape with a ram's spiral horns (of bronze color) and a pink, hairless tail.  He attacks with two claws, a bite, his whiplike tail, and his horns (butting, not goring).  He is particularly fond of items fashioned of bronze -- and the tast of demi-human flesh.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #10 (1988).


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## Shade (Jan 29, 2008)

For starters, using the ol' "divide by 4.5" rule of thumb for unique beings, his HD would end up at 29.  This would put him at around CR 23 when compared to other unique demons.

Per Fiendish Codex, we know some additional information:


Called "the Howling King"
Rules the 90th layer of the Abyss called the Guttering Grove.
"The Screaming Jungle: Near the city of Lemoriax, the Screaming Jungle meets an immense inland bog populated by troglodytes, lizardfolk, hezrou demons, and the few yuan-ti cultists who manage to survive the natural hazards of the layer. Farther into the interior, the ground hardens and the canopy grows dangerously lush, casting the land in deep shadows. Here enormous dinosaurs battle for territory with dire apes and bar-lguras. A lost plateau deep in the mainland is said to hold a two-way portal to the Guttering Grove, the 90th layer of the Abyss and the realm of Ilsidahur, patron of the bar-lgura. The forest is named for the constantly keening fiendish monkeys, lemurs, and apes that dwell below its leafy canopy."

And from the Demonomicon featuring Demogorgon:

"And one must not discount feral Ilsidahur, the demon lord of the simian bar-lguras, who guards the landward approach to Gaping Maw. Ilsidahur once aided Demogorgon in reopening the Shining Vortex of Mesnar, a portal that once connected the Abyssal woodlands of Morathkian with the Olympian Glades of Arborea, one of many portals used eons ago by the eladrin court to invade the Abyss and finish the job against the obyriths that the Wind Dukes of Aaqa started. Demogorgon and Ilsidahur managed to cause a fair amount of devastation there before their armies clashed with those of Gwynharwyf, an eladrin paragon. Although she pushed them back through the Shining Vortex of Mesnar, Gwynharwyf herself was forced to remain on the Abyssal side to ensure its permanent closing, and was soon thereafter captured by Demogorgon and Ilsidahur. Only the fact that the two demon lords wasted days arguing over how best to desecrate, torture, and ultimately slay Gwynharwyf granted Morwel the time she needed to mount a daring rescue of her missing consort. Ever since, Demogorgon's relations with Ilsidahur have grown strained, and lately the other demon lord has been wracking his mind on how to repair the damage before Demogorgon decides to invade the Guttering Grove and seize it for his own."


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## Shroomy (Jan 30, 2008)

What would the stats of a 29-HD bar-lgura look like?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

Like so...

Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri)
Hit Dice: 29d8+174 (304 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 23 (+3 Dex, +10 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +29/+43
Attack: Claw +38 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +38 melee (1d8+6) and bite +33 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Abduction, pounce, spell-like abilities, summon tanar'ri
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/cold iron or good, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft., tanar'ri traits
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +17, Will +16
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 17, Con 23, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12 plus 6 increases
Skills: 288
Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Run, 7 more
Environment: Infinite Layers of the Abyss
Organization: See text
Challenge Rating: 17
Treasure: x
Alignment: Always chaotic evil
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -


This might provide a baseline.  We should look at other comparable demon lords for ability score arrays and so forth.


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## freyar (Jan 30, 2008)

Well, we need to do something to bump the CR a bit...  Are any of his SLAs particularly powerful?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, we need to do something to bump the CR a bit...  Are any of his SLAs particularly powerful?






> This demon has the following powers, usable once per round at will, at the 16th level of use unless noted otherwise: animate dead monsters (ape skeletons and zombies only), darkness 20' radius, detect illusion, detect invisiblity, dispel magic, entangle, hallucinatory terrain, levitate, permanent illusion, plant growth, polymorph self, spectral force, telekinesis (2,500 lbs.), teleport without error, and tongues. Ilsidahur may gate in 1-4 bar-lgura (60%) or 1-2 Type IV demons (40%) with a 75% chance of success, in lieu of any other activity for one round. His piercing scream causes fear (per the spell) in all within hearing range (or within one mile outdoors).




James Jacobs demon lord "template" in the last print Dragon suggests all demon lords have...

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 15th)
  At will—astral projection, blasphemy, desecrate, detect good, detect law, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, plane shift, shapechange, telekinesis, unhallow, unholy aura, unholy blight;
  3/day—any one symbol.

Each demon lord also possess two additional at-will spell-like abilities, two additional 3/day abilities, and two additional 1/day abilities. These additional spell-like abilities should be chosen to match the demon lord's "theme". 

A demon lord's base caster level for spell-like abilities ranges from CL 20th to 25th, based on the demon lord's overall CR (starting at CL 20th and adding +1 to its CL for every 3 points its CR exceeds 18, to a maximum of CL 25th at CR 33).


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2008)

Man, I keep getting logged out and then losing my posts...  My thoughts on this were to keep the SLA's from James Jacobs's list and add deeper darkness & entangle (at will), some sort of animate dead & plant growth (3/day), and permanent illusion & telekinetic sphere (1/day).  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Jan 31, 2008)

I did a mockup in Homebrews using our advanced bar-lgura, James Jacobs' demon lord template, and ability score comparisons to other demon lords.

I gave it the true seeing ability common to many greater demons and demon lords to replace the detect illusion and detect invisiblity spell-like abilities.

I like your other SLA suggestions, although I think this...



> animate dead monsters (ape skeletons and zombies only)




...might make an interesting supernatural ability.  Perhaps an aura that animates any dead simian creatures?

We'll also need to add something for this...



> His piercing scream causes fear (per the spell) in all within hearing range (or within one mile outdoors).




Perhaps we can use the great roar of the agta as inspiration.


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2008)

I'd agree with the aura for animating dead simians.  Then we can give him an extra SLA.   More in a bit...


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2008)

How do these look?

Aura of Simian Undeath (Su):  All ape, monkey, and other simian corpses within x feet of Ilsidahur arise as skeletons or zombies under Ilsidahur's command.  Ilsidahur can command up to 60 HD of undead in this manner.

Aura of Simian Command (Su): All simian creatures feel a strange bond of attraction to Ilsidahur. Before such a creature takes any hostile action against Ilsidahur, it must attempt a DC X Will save. Failure indicates that the creature's action fails and is wasted. This aura extends to a radius of 120 feet. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2008)

Look good!  What do you think about the normal SLAs?  For the symbol, I think I'd suggest symbol of pain.  (Or is it supposed to be that he can choose whichever symbol he wants 3/day?)


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

Looking at the others, it appears a single symbol.  I agree with symbol of pain.

Updated Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Sounds good.  We need one more 3/day SLA possibly.  How about wall of thorns?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

Sounds good.

Skills: 288 (+4 Hide, +10 Jump)
Bar-lgura Skills: Balance, Climb, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble 

How about max ranks in Balance, Bluff, Climb, Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (nature), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Tumble?

Feats: Dodge, Mobility, Run, 7 more
Suggestions:  Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack

We can swap one for Dark Speech in an "If you're using Fiendish Codex I" sidebar.

For natural armor, the FC version of both Baphomet and Demogorgon (the "greater aspects") have +27 natural armor.  Shall we give the same to Ilsidahur?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

All sounds good for me.  Which SLA do you want to quicken?  (And should Quicken SLA be the one that gets swapped for Dark Speech?)


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

Quicken telekinesis?

And yes, that can be an easy swapout for Dark Speech.

Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Once per day, Ilsidahur can automatically summon 1d4 bar-lguras (or 1d4 x if you aren't using Fiendish Codex I), or summon 1d2 nalfeshnees with a 75% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.

x = babau?

Organization: Solitary or Ilsidahur plus 2d4 bar-lguras?

Treasure: Triple standard?

Weight?  A bar-lgura is 300 pounds at 5 feet tall.  Ilsidahur is 8 feet tall.  A dire ape stands about 9 feet tall and weighs from 800 to 1,200 pounds.  So maybe 700 pounds?


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

That all sounds good!  Does he need anything else?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2008)

I added "Ilsidahur's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as chaotic-aligned and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction."

Otherwise, I think we're finished.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2008)

Wow, these epic ones always give me a big sense of accomplishment.  Makes me wish I could get a campaign up to those levels.   But if I ever run Savage Tide, you can bet Ilsidahur is showing up somewhere!


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2008)

It seems like the epic conversions are often easier than some of the low-level ones.  

Ilsidahur would fit in perfectly with the Savage Tide.


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2008)

*Sch'theraqpasstt*
(Major demon)
FREQUENCY: Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 12”/36” (MC: C)
HIT DICE: 111 hp (attacks as 16 + HD monster)
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite and 2 constriction
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12/3-30
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poisonous bite, continuous damage, insanity aura
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon needed to hit, immune to mind-affecting
spells, psionics, and illusions
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: Supragenius (insane; see below)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
SIZE: L (60’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Sch'theraqpasstt (pronounced schikthere-AUK-past) was once a lesser god that ruled the 111th plane of the Abyss, and from there orchestrated the creation of the yuan-ti ages ago. However, he was not satisfied with being "simply" a god, and he devised a method to gain ultimate power.

Sch'theraqpasstt attempted to merge his life-essence with the plane he ruled and become, in effect, a living dimension.  His scheme destroyed him by giving him what he wanted. He succeeded in merging with his plane of the Abyss, but no intellect, no matter how powerful, could stand the strain of being joined with pure Chaos.   All but a minute portion of his psyche went insane; with what little of his mind was left, he formed the body described herein, a shadow of his former self. 

This manifestation appears as a 60'-long, winged, ebony serpent. The attack modes are bite and, constriction. Those bitten take 2-12 hp damage and must save versus poison at -4 or contract a form of insanity.  Such insanity can be cured with a heal, wish, limited wish or alter reality spell.  Constriction causes 3-30 hp damage, and such damage is automatic every round after the first hit. Sch'theraqpasstt can constrict up to six small-size, four mansize or two large-size creatures per round.

A +2 or better weapon is needed to hit Sch'theraqpasstt, and in addition to his magic resistance, he is immune to all mind-affecting spells (including illusions).  All beings within 100' of Sch'theraqpasstt must save at the beginning of every round or be affected as per a scarab of insanity.  

Sch'theraqpasstt flits through the multiverse in a random fashion, rarely staying in one place for more than one turn. He has been seen on the Prime Material plane several times and will always be there on the Night of Venom, usually where the greatest number of yuan-ti are singing his praises. At this time he will be somewhat rational, but at other times there is a 10% chance per round that his intelligence will slip from supragenius to complete idiocy.  If Sch'theraqpasstt goes insane during a battle, he fights to the death, with + 2 on all to-hit, damage, and saving rolls, and a -2 penalty to his opponents' saves vs. his poison and magical effects.

If Sch'theraqpasstt's material form is killed, his psyche returns to his home plane of the Abyss and reforms over a period of 111 days. The only way to truly destroy this being is to destroy his entire plane. Thus, at the price of his godhood and sanity, Sch'theraqpasstt attained an indestructible immortality.  

This being's home plane is known as "The Mind of Evil." The only activity there is the chaotic whirling of an intelligent, insane plane. Anyone transported here is at the mercy of  Sch'theraqpasstt and, as magic does not work here, has almost no chance of survival. Note that all planar travelers are aware of this peril and avoid that layer of the Abyss at all costs.
Part of the yuan-ti plan after conquering the world is to gather all the magic they can find and use it to reverse the downfall of their god. Whether this can be achieved is unknown, but there are few persons outside yuan-ti society who wish to see this come about.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #151 (1989).


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## Shade (Feb 8, 2008)

Using the "divide by 4.5" method, he should have 24-25 HD.

At 60 feet long, that places him right in the middle of the frost worm (Huge) and purple worm (Gargantuan).  I'm leaning towards Gargantuan.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

Yeah, let's make him big!  

I notice that he has an insanity aura.  Do we want to make him effectively into an obyrith by giving him form of madness?  I've just been reading Elder Evils -- Xmas gift -- and I think they make Sertrous, another Yuan-ti related demon, an obyrith prince, too.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

Hmmm...it could be an obyrith, since it made the change to demon "ages ago".


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Taking a yuan-ti anathema and increasing it to Gargantuan yields the following ability scores:

Abilities: Str 35, Dex 13, Con 33, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 22

Since this guy should be even more intelligent than the most intelligent of yuan-ti, how about:

Str 35, Dex 13, Con 33, Int 30, Wis 27, Cha 28?


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

Sounds reasonable.  Several things to work on for this guy.  How about the constriction first?  Should we treat that through the usual tail slap/improved grab/constrict routine?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

How about this for the insanity aura?

Form of Madness (Su): Any creature within 60 feet of Sch'theraqpasstt must make a DC X Will save or become insanely frightened of snakes, serpents, and other slithering creatures.  Any time the character thereafter comes within 30 feet of a snake, serpent, or slithering creature, the character becomes shaken until at least 120 feet from any snake, serpent, or slithering creature.  Chaotic evil outsiders are immune to this mind-affecting ability.

Maybe I'll revisit this tonight when I can look at my books...


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

> Those bitten take 2-12 hp damage and must save versus poison at -4 or contract a form of insanity.  Such insanity can be cured with a heal, wish, limited wish or alter reality spell.




Insanity Venom (Ex):  A creature hit by Sch'theraqpasstt's bite attack must succeed on a DC X Will save or be rendered permanently insane (as the insanity spell).  This is not traditional poison, and as such immunity to poison and spells or effects that protect against poison have no effect.  Only a heal, limited wish, wish, or miracle can remove this insanity, and doing so requires a DC X caster level check to succeed.   The save DC is Constitution-based.



> Constriction causes 3-30 hp damage, and such damage is automatic every round after the first hit. Sch'theraqpasstt can constrict up to six small-size, four mansize or two large-size creatures per round.




How's this?

Endless Coils (Ex):  Sch'theraqpasstt can transfer a held opponent to its coils with a successful grapple check.  He may grapple up to 1 Huge, 2 Large, 4 Medium, or 6 Small or smaller creatures with no penalty, and may employ his constrict ability against all foes held in his coils.



> All beings within 100' of Sch'theraqpasstt must save at the beginning of every round or be affected as per a scarab of insanity.




Insanity aura in addition to the form of madness suggested above?  



> Sch'theraqpasstt flits through the multiverse in a random fashion, rarely staying in one place for more than one turn. He has been seen on the Prime Material plane several times and will always be there on the Night of Venom, usually where the greatest number of yuan-ti are singing his praises. At this time he will be somewhat rational, but at other times there is a 10% chance per round that his intelligence will slip from supragenius to complete idiocy.  If Sch'theraqpasstt goes insane during a battle, he fights to the death, with + 2 on all to-hit, damage, and saving rolls, and a -2 penalty to his opponents' saves vs. his poison and magical effects.




Insane Rage (Su):  Each round in combat, there is a 10% chance that Sch'theraqpasstt  gives in to his insanity.  This functions as the barbarian's rage ability, except that the rage does not end until Sch'theraqpasstt or all his foes are dead or otherwise rendered unable to fight.  Sch'theraqpasstt is not winded after his rage ends.



> If Sch'theraqpasstt's material form is killed, his psyche returns to his home plane of the Abyss and reforms over a period of 111 days. The only way to truly destroy this being is to destroy his entire plane. Thus, at the price of his godhood and sanity, Sch'theraqpasstt attained an indestructible immortality.




Indestructible Immortality (Su): If Sch'theraqpasstt dies, his pshyce returns to the 111th layer of the Abyss, where it reforms after 111 days. If Sch'theraqpasstt is slain on his home plane, he is dead forever.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

All looks good.

I'm not quite sure about insanity aura and form of madness together.  I guess I was thinking of twisting the insanity aura a little to go with current lore.  But if we want to be nasty...   What do you think?

You need to shift the "h" to after the "c" in psyche.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Pshaw!    

I was looking over the yuan-ti anathema, and it has this ability:

Mass Aversion (Sp): An anathema can psionically create a compulsion effect targeting all enemies within 30 feet. The targets must succeed on a Will save (DC 27) or gain an aversion to snakes for 10 minutes. Affected subjects must stay at least 20 feet from any snake, yuan-ti, or ti-khana creature, whether alive or dead; if already within 20 feet, they move away. A subject can overcome the compulsion by succeeding on another Will save (DC 27), but still suffers from deep anxiety. This causes a -4 reduction to Dexterity until the effect wears off or the subject is no longer within 20 feet of a snake, yuan-ti, or ti-khana creature. This ability is otherwise similar to antipathy as cast by a 16th-level sorcerer.

This actually seems more powerful than the form of madness you indicated above.  Maybe we can combine the two, and drop the insanity aura?

Other yuan-ti abilities to consider:

Alternate form (Sp): All yuan-ti can assume the form of a Tiny to Large viper (see the Snake entry, page 280) as a psionic ability. The yuan-ti loses its natural weapons (if any) and gains the natural weapon of the viper form it assumes. If the yuan-ti has a poisonous bite of its own, it uses its own or the viper's poison, whichever is more potent.

Chameleon Power (Sp): An abomination or anathema can psionically change the coloration of itself and its equipment to match its surroundings, gaining a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks.

Detect Poison (Sp): All yuan-ti have the psionic ability to detect poison as the spell (caster level varies).

Produce Acid (Sp): An abomination has the psionic ability to exude acid from its body, dealing 3d6 points of acid damage to the next creature it touches, including a creature hit by its bite attack. If the yuan-ti is grappling or pinning a foe when it uses this power, its grasp deals 5d6 points of acid damage. The acid becomes inert when it leaves the yuan-ti's body, and the yuan-ti is immune to its effects.

or

Dissolving Touch (Sp): An anathema can psionically exude acid from its body, dealing 7d6 points of acid damage to anything it touches. If it uses this power when grappling or constricting an opponent, the acid deals 10d6 points of damage instead. The acid is effective only on the round when this power is used, and it becomes inert when it leaves the anathema's body.

Per the demon lord template:

Spell-Like Abilities: All demon lords have the following spell-like abilities in addition to any the base creature possesses:

Spell-Like Abilities: 
  At will—astral projection, blasphemy (or word of chaos for obyriths), desecrate, detect good, detect law, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, plane shift, shapechange, telekinesis, unhallow, unholy aura (or cloak of chaos for obyriths), unholy blight (or chaos hammer for obyriths);
  3/day—any one symbol.

Each demon lord also possess two additional at-will spell-like abilities, two additional 3/day abilities, and two additional 1/day abilities. These additional spell-like abilities should be chosen to match the demon lord's "theme". 

A demon lord's base caster level for spell-like abilities ranges from CL 20th to 25th, based on the demon lord's overall CR (starting at CL 20th and adding +1 to its CL for every 3 points its CR exceeds 18, to a maximum of CL 25th at CR 33).


Anathema Spell-Like Abilities: 3/day -- animal trance (DC 18), baleful polymorph (DC 21), cause fear (DC 17), deeper darkness, entangle (DC 17), haste, neutralize poison, suggestion (DC 19), unholy blight (DC 20); 1/day -- blasphemy (DC 23), unholy aura (DC 24). Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Abomination Anathema Spell-Like Abilities: At will--animal trance (DC 16), entangle (DC 15); 3/day--deeper darkness, neutralize poison (DC 18), suggestion (DC 17); 1/day--baleful polymorph (DC 19; into snake form only), fear (DC 18). Caster level 10th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Feb 15, 2008)

Yeah, I knew I wouldn't get Form of Madness right.  One thing about it, though, is that it's permanent.  Here's what _Elder Evils_ says for the yuan-ti themed Sertrous, which we could meld with the anathema's ability, perhaps, to get something new.  (Unless we just want to go a more unique route.)

Form of Madness (Su): Any creature within 60 feet who observes Sertrous must make a DC 30 Will save.  Failure indicates that the victim develops an overwhelming fear of snakes and serpentine creatures (including hydras, golothomas, yuan-ti, and Sertrous himself).

As long as a serpentine creature is in sight, the victim is distracted and takes a -4 penalty on Will saving throws.  It also takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls against these types of creatures.  In the first round of combat against a serpentine creature, the victim must also make a DC 28 Will save or be paralyzed with fear for 1d6 rounds.

_Heal_ or _greater restoration_ can cure the effect if the caster succeeds on a DC 30 caster level check.  _Miracle_ or _wish_ automatically cures this condition. A creature that succeeds on its save is immune to Sertrous's Form of Madness for 24 hours.  Blindness is no protection against Sertrous's Form of Madness -- his presence is an affront to all five senses.  This is a mind-affecting fear ability that does not affect chaotic evil outsiders or yuan-ti.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

On second thought, since Sertrous seems to have the fear of snake thing covered with its form of madness, how about we go back to the insanity aspect which seems to be S's main mojo.

We could just go with rendering victims permanently insane, or borrow this from the uzollru obyriths:

Form of Madness (Su): Any creature within 120 feet that observes an uzollru must attempt a DC 27 Will save. Failure indicates that the creature is struck dumb by the sheer size of this obyrith demon. The victim's Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores are reduced to 1. This is a mind-affecting ability that does not affect chaotic evil outsiders. The save DC is Charisma-based.

What did you think about all the rest of the stuff?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Hmmm.  Almost like feeblemind.  Should we say that this is permanent until removed by heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish, like feeblemind?  (I'd make it a little easier to remove than usual given how severe it is.)  How long does this last for an uzollru?  Also, should we make yuan-ti immune?

I'm not so sure about giving him alternate form, since he's not exactly a yuan-ti, but a souped up version of the produce acid or dissolving touch would be good.

SLAs: add deeper darkness and cause fear at will, baleful polymorph and suggestion 3/day, unholy aura and blasphemy 1/day (I'm assuming he already gets cloak of chaos instead of unholy aura).  How about insanity for the symbol?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm.  Almost like feeblemind.  Should we say that this is permanent until removed by heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish, like feeblemind?  (I'd make it a little easier to remove than usual given how severe it is.)  How long does this last for an uzollru?  Also, should we make yuan-ti immune?




Yes, permanent, yes.    



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> I'm not so sure about giving him alternate form, since he's not exactly a yuan-ti, but a souped up version of the produce acid or dissolving touch would be good.




Fair enough.  How's this?

Corrosive Touch (Sp): Sch'theraqpasstt has the psionic ability to exude acid from his body, dealing 10d6 points of acid damage to the next creature he touches, including a creature hit by his natural attacks. If Sch'theraqpasstt is grappling or pinning a foe when he uses this power, his grasp deals 15d6 points of acid damage. The acid becomes inert when it leaves Sch'theraqpasstt's body.  Yuan-ti are immune to its effects.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> SLAs: add deeper darkness and cause fear at will, baleful polymorph and suggestion 3/day, unholy aura and blasphemy 1/day (I'm assuming he already gets cloak of chaos instead of unholy aura).  How about insanity for the symbol?



]

All sounds good, except lets upgrade cause fear to fear.

Spell-Like Abilities: 
At will—astral projection, chaos hammer, cloak of chaos, deeper darkness, desecrate, detect good, detect law, fear, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, plane shift, shapechange, telekinesis, unhallow, unholy blight, word of chaos;
3/day—baleful polymorph, suggestion, symbol of insanity;
1/day—blasphemy, unholy aura.

And we're keeping these?

Chameleon Power (Sp): Sch'theraqpasstt can psionically change the coloration of himself and his equipment to match his surroundings, gaining a +10 circumstance bonus on Hide checks.

Detect Poison (Sp): Sch'theraqpasstt has the psionic ability to detect poison as the spell (caster level x).


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Sounds good.  I think chameleon power and detect poison are good, but I'm still not sure about alternate form.  It just seems weird to have this obyrith lord change into a little tiny snake.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sounds good.  I think chameleon power and detect poison are good, but I'm still not sure about alternate form.  It just seems weird to have this obyrith lord change into a little tiny snake.




Consider it dropped.  Besides, he was forced into his current form and seeks restoration to his old form.  If he could simply switch back, that would be lessened.

Updated.

Skills: 18 at 28 ranks
Bluff 28, Climb 28, Concentration 28, Hide 28, Intimidate 28, Knowledge (history) 28, Knowledge (nature) 28, Knowledge (religion) 28, Knowledge (the planes) 28, Listen 28, Move Silently 28, Search 28, Sense Motive 28, Spellcraft 28, Spot 28, Swim 28, Tumble 28, Use Magic Device 28?

Feats: 9
Anathema has:  Blind-Fight, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack
Abomination has:  Alertness (B), Blind-Fight (B), Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Mobility
Halfblood has:  Alertness (B), Blind-Fight (B), Combat Expertise, Dodge, Improved Initiative
Halfblood has:  Alertness (B), Blind-Fight (B), Dodge, Improved Initiative

How about:
Alertness (B), Blind-Fight (B), Cleave*, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Epic Reflexes, Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative, Mobility, Multiattack, Power Attack
*If you are using Fiendish Codex I, replace with Dark Speech.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Feats & skills look good.  

Bite and tail slaps should be +33, I think.

We should now set the CR to get the AC; I think you're going to have to do that, since he's a bit complicated.   Something like 23-24?


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Compared to other demon lords, I'd beg him at 24.

Updated.

We still need weight and constrict damage.

A purple worm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds.

S is 60 foot long, but is probably heavier than a similarly-sized worm due to scales and wings, so maybe 30,000 pounds?

I just realized his tail slap deals less damage than a marilith's.  I've now corrected that flaw.  

Marilith constrict equals tail slap + Str and a half.   Sound good here too?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2008)

Weight is good, and tail slap plus str+1/2 is good for constrict damage.   

Otherwise, I guess we're forking this thread.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Yep.  Closing this one as soon as I open the next.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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