# Question regarding the 7-Day RPG Contest



## Sanglorian

*Questions about competition moved from thread*

You mention the OGL and the GSL. What about other public copyright licences like the Creative Commons licences? Is it okay to submit a game under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike?


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## Brix

Do you claim ownershp of the winner game or of any game attached to this thread?


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## adembroski

I understand that should I submit an entry, I am "giving" Enworld that document... that particular intellectual product.

My question is, beyond agreeing to allow you to publish and profit from my submission, do I retain ownership of the intellectual product from that point forth? For instance, should I submit an entry that includes Feathered Space Kitties as a playable race, do I retain the right to publish future products using the Feathered Space Kitty? In other words, is Enworld assuming ownership of the intellectual properties contained in the submission, or only the submission itself (as in, those particular words in that particular order, or the gist there of)?


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## Morrus

adembroski said:


> I understand that should I submit an entry, I am "giving" Enworld that document... that particular intellectual product.
> 
> 
> My question is, beyond agreeing to allow you to publish and profit from my submission, do I retain ownership of the intellectual product from that point forth? For instance, should I submit an entry that includes Feathered Space Kitties as a playable race, do I retain the right to publish future products using the Feathered Space Kitty? In other words, is Enworld assuming ownership of the intellectual properties contained in the submission, or only the submission itself (as in, those particular words in that particular order, or the gist there of)?






I'm keeping it simple - the IP, basically; avoids any confusion. Not that I'll necessarily use it (I imagine the quality of entries will vary), but I'll be able to.  So if you are very attached to your Feathered Space Kitties, you might want to replace them with Furry Space Poodles or something; or if it features your favourite PC who you've played for 30 years, simply replace the PC with someone else.  That said, if you're using the OGL or a similar license, you can use any Open Game Content in the document whenever you wish.  And, without wanting to get into a lengthy discussion on copyright stuff, the rules themselves can't be copyrighted, just the expression of them.  

So, yeah, feel free to change names to protect the innocent!


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## adembroski

Thanks for the swift reply. So long as I'm here, my as well throw out one more question...

"It can be any subject or genre."

The "subject" is clearly "RPG", so I'm assuming you're referring to types of RPG supplements... i.e. adventure paths, campaign settings, etc. when referring to OGL covered systems?


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## Morrus

adembroski said:


> Thanks for the swift reply. So long as I'm here, my as well throw out one more question...
> 
> 
> "It can be any subject or genre."
> 
> 
> The "subject" is clearly "RPG", so I'm assuming you're referring to types of RPG supplements... i.e. adventure paths, campaign settings, etc. when referring to OGL covered systems?






By subject I pretty much just meant genre.  Horror, fantasy, sci-fi, modern, spy, military, anything.

The entry needs to be a self-contained RPG (not an adventure or a supplement, although you're welcome to include an adventure for folks to use if you wish!)


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## Morrus

I've removed these posts from the competition thread like I said I would.

answers - any license is fine (just make sure you follow it correctly); and yes, all entries.  The winner might not be the one which gets me my $1000 back!


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## RangerWickett

*Another moved 7-Day contest question*

Russ, please clarify part of your post. Your sentence about when you'll pay doesn't parse. Do you mean to say, "The winner gets $1000, which I will send by Paypal immediately once the week's up"? In which case, when do we get time to vote on things?


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## sheadunne

*7-Day Contest Questions*

More like clarifying points than actual questions.

1) The entry that receives the most votes will get paid
2) You will publish only the games you want to publish
3) It is possible that someone else gets "paid" for the game you make (ie the winner of the vote gets the money, but the creator of the best game may get nothing if she/he's not the most popular game and you decide to publish it)

True? If so, it seems a little odd to me. While I understand that you're concerned about recouping your investment, what's the creator's incentive, especially if you publish the game and someone else gets paid for it?


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## Morrus

1) Yes
2) Yes
3) I'm sorry, I don't understand the question!


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## Morrus

RangerWickett said:


> Russ, please clarify part of your post. Your sentence about when you'll pay doesn't parse. Do you mean to say, "The winner gets $1000, which I will send by Paypal immediately once the week's up"? In which case, when do we get time to vote on things?






Everybody spends a week voting and then I send the prize money to the winner.


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## sheadunne

Yay, scenario time.

Contestant A: Wins the vote. 
Morrus: Sends $1000 to Contestent A
Morrus: Decides to publish Contestent B's game instead
Contestant B: Yay. Wait a minute . . . 

Tally

Contestant A: $1000
Contestant B: $0
Morrus: $1,000,000*

*Exaggerated for humor.

Where's Contestant B's motivation? Contestant A has his money!


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## Umbran

sheadunne said:


> Where's Contestant B's motivation? Contestant A has his money!




B's motivation is that he or she might be A!

It isn't like the decision to give A the money is made *before* B submits.  Everyone submits, there's a vote, and _THEN_ we see who gets the money!


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## sheadunne

Umbran said:


> B's motivation is that he or she might be A!
> 
> It isn't like the decision to give A the money is made *before* B submits.  Everyone submits, there's a vote, and _THEN_ we see who gets the money!




I think B's motivation is $1000 and getting published. Not one or the other. For instance, if there wasn't a $1000 prize, you would still get as many people contributing for the chance to get published. You could then reward those that actually get published. Or voting creates the top three games and Morrus picks the winner and publishes the game. He could then publish the other games as well, but without the possible crappy felling of having the best game (Contestant B) but someone else getting money for it (Contestant A). I've just never seen it done this way. It's like losing and then getting kicked in the teeth lol


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## sheadunne

These are just general impressions. I'll probably submit something because it sounds like fun, which is enough motivation for me to do anything lol. Just struck me as odd from a theoretical stand point. My guess is the best entry will win because it is the best entry.


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## Bagpuss

I think the creative commons is an interesting one, as it means you don't mind the original author or anyone else making money off this if the thing really takes off.


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## Tallifer

*Moved post from contest thread*

Can one person enter more than one fantasy heartbreaker into this contest? <flips through binders full of half-baked ideas>


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## Morrus

Tallifer said:


> Can one person enter more than one fantasy heartbreaker into this contest? <flips through binders full of half-baked ideas>




As many as you like!


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## Stalker0

Can the writer continue to make updates to the property that enworld now owns?

Adding additional content, or polishing existing mechanics?


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## Morrus

Stalker0 said:


> Can the writer continue to make updates to the property that enworld now owns?
> 
> Adding additional content, or polishing existing mechanics?




Well not while voting is taking place, no. After that it'll either be getting published (in which case if it needs more work, I may well pay them to do it) or will be returned to them.


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## Umbran

sheadunne said:


> I think B's motivation is $1000 and getting published. Not one or the other. For instance, if there wasn't a $1000 prize, you would still get as many people contributing for the chance to get published.




I don't expect that's true, but if it is... well, then if you get published... you get published!  That's cool, a reward, in and of itself.  If you want to start doing things as a writer/designer, there's a feather in your cap for your resume.   

The thing is, from Morrus' standpoint, the publishing bit is an economic thing.  Straight up editorial choice.  If he rewards whatever gets published, then this is more like "Morrus is now taking open submissions, and is the one real judge", and that's probably a position he doesn't want to be in.  It limits the community involvement, and means folks will hold decisions against him personally.  But, putting it *all* to the community means that one wiseacre who tries to stuff a ballot box can cause a bit of havoc.

Thus it makes sense - the direct monetary reward is up for popular vote.  Publishing is based off what Morrus thinks will fund the whole process, and the two aren't linked.


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## sheadunne

Umbran said:


> I don't expect that's true, but if it is... well, then if you get published... you get published!  That's cool, a reward, in and of itself.  If you want to start doing things as a writer/designer, there's a feather in your cap for your resume.
> 
> The thing is, from Morrus' standpoint, the publishing bit is an economic thing.  Straight up editorial choice.  If he rewards whatever gets published, then this is more like "Morrus is now taking open submissions, and is the one real judge", and that's probably a position he doesn't want to be in.  It limits the community involvement, and means folks will hold decisions against him personally.  But, putting it *all* to the community means that one wiseacre who tries to stuff a ballot box can cause a bit of havoc.
> 
> Thus it makes sense - the direct monetary reward is up for popular vote.  Publishing is based off what Morrus thinks will fund the whole process, and the two aren't linked.




Oh I know, just seems odd is all.


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## Murph Murphy

*Moved Contest Discussion*

I'd be tempted, but automatically losing the right to it just by entering?  No thanks.


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## tablehop

Murph Murphy said:


> I'd be tempted, but automatically losing the right to it just by entering?  No thanks.




Yes, this. I wouldn't recommend for anyone to enter this contest. It's a terrible deal and a bad thing all around.


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## NancyButtpeach

I have a system I have been working on for 10 years. It is called RIN, and it has a little original artwork along with it. It is also incomplete. I would enter it, but I am not willing to hand over the rights just by entering. However, I may throw together a quick game and post it.


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## adamc

Most RPG's will never see the light of day, so it's debatable how terrible the deal is. However, I agree that I wouldn't enter, just because $1000 isn't enough to make up for the sentimental value for most authors, and isn't enough for it to be a good work-for-hire prospect unless you can write an original RPG fairly quickly.

However, Morrus is just offering the option; no one has to enter who doesn't want to.


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## tablehop

adamc said:


> However, Morrus is just offering the option; no one has to enter who doesn't want to.




"He's only *offering* to take advantage of people; it's really on them if they accept it."


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## Evenglare

I was initially extremely excited until the fact that I would lose all creative control. I'm currently working on my own RPG based on the Archmage Engine which in turn is what 13th Age runs off of. This is completely original (new classes/ powers/ ac / damage reduction system everything). After seeing how much work this is going to take I can't imagine anyone simply giving that work up. I appreciate the offer Morrus but I can't endorse this line of enterprise at all. I'm not sure who would, honestly.


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## Oakfist

tablehop said:


> "He's only *offering* to take advantage of people; it's really on them if they accept it."




If EN World (Hey, didn't they just take down over $75K through KS just a  little under 3 months ago?) is willing to throw $1K at you, chances are  you have something that can make you more than that regardless if it  only took you 24 hours to cook up. If you feel good about submitting you are submitting, stop and think twice because once you do it's not yours anymore.

Hey, if someone files legal action against me as the original author because someone alleges that EN World rips something off, they agree to indemnify me too, right?


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## Chris_Nightwing

I really don't want to be a pain in the ass, but I *hope* that the following complaints can be viewed constructively. Standard disclaimer, I'm not a lawyer, but consumer and copyright law is very easy to read up on these days.

I sincerely question the legality of this contest. You have failed to even consider the most basic provisions in your description of the contest, even in the legal section, and your language is rather too casual to hold up to inspection. At the very worst for an entrant to the contest, your description implies that they may not win the vote, may not win $1000 and yet you will hold the rights to their RPG and will be free to publish and profit from them. At the very worst for you, said entrant sees your success and decides to sue you on the basis of your poorly worded contest. As a reference, I suggest looking at the full rules of the contest WotC is currently holding to design a character sheet, or the rules for this contest to design a logo for the Hugo awards: http://www.thehugoawards.org/hugo-awards-logo-contest-official-rules/

The Basics

You need to state clearly and succinctly who is eligible for this contest. Is there an age requirement? Is there a place of residence requirement? Is there a requirement to register on this website, or are there other avenues for submission (be very careful here, as contests in the UK must provide a no-purchase-necessary free method of entry, and I think registering for a website is ok provided there is a guarantee that they will not receive marketing information, even so, recent Coca-Cola contests that require registration on their website *still* provide a mailing address you can apply to). Clearly you are only willing to award the prize by PayPal, so you must state that a PayPal account is required and that there is no alternative prize. I have no idea about an age requirement - put I think PayPal has one, which would carry over to your contest. Can anyone around the world enter? Probably not - so many competitions are limited to the US/Canada because otherwise you have to comply with every legal system around the world, and I highly doubt you will be able to do this - do you know what the IP law is in China for instance? Will your provisions about transfer or rights hold there? Oh, and can moderators enter? Can employees or people who have freelanced for you enter? Can you enter?

You don't clearly state the eligible submission dates and times for the contest. The use of 'my time' and 'I'm in the UK' is not sufficient, as it implies but does not confirm that you mean BST (you could be in the Falkland Islands for all we know).

Your submission guidelines are rough. You ask for the submission of an RPG - what constitutes an RPG? If someone submits what might be considered a boardgame, but with characters, such as Mansions of Madness, would that be an RPG? If someone submits a game where the only rule is that conflicts are resolved by real fist-fights, is that an RPG? You can state that "you'll know it when you see it", but that might lead to arguments. Do you have the right to withdraw your entry? What about if I accidentally submit the wrong file? When can I withdraw, if I can? What else will disqualify me from the contest other than multi-voting?

The rules on who win say that there will be a vote. Who will vote? ENWorld members? Can people who register on the site during the voting period vote? Can I sign my friends up to the site so that they can vote? What happens if there is a tie?

Now for the rights assignment. Both of the contest rules I mention above include the signing over of copyright on the piece of work submitted. Is is the same as signing over the IP rights to that piece of work? If you publish the entry, how much are you allowed to change? Can you claim authorship if you make sufficient changes? If the author wants to write a supplement, who has the rights to publish that? This is *very muddy water* and I would be careful here, because even if claiming copyright on all the submissions is legal, you could stir up a lot of resentment if you later use that without acknowledgement. Your contest is a little different from the standard 'logo design' contests that exist in their hundreds on the web, and different from the Hugo and WotC contests above, because they definitely will publish the winner, and it's clear that they can't 'profit' from any but one or two entries. If you take a look at something more similar, such as writing competitions (http://www.willesdenherald.com/competition/rules.php for instance), they clearly state that copyright will remain with the author other than for a limited set of circumstances (ie: to publish the winner in their book or newspaper).

I got completely lost myself writing all of that, but hopefully you can understand my concerns? One final worry - ENWorld was recently saved from the brink of collapse by the efforts of the community here, and sure, the Kickstarter offered fantastic rewards, but it was still a call for help that was answered, rather than a business transaction. The way in which you describe the contest.. well, it sounds a lot more mercenary. You want to give someone $1000, but only so you can publish enough of them to make a profit - even publishing those who don't win with no rewards for the authors. To me, this sounds like exploitation. Whether someone has an RPG lying around or writes one this week, they will still put effort and hopefully some amount of love into their works and to then lose their rights to that work (even if it is hopeless) whilst someone else makes money off of it sounds awful - the very sort of thing we would be up in arms about on these boards if WotC or Paizo tried it. Contests run by those companies ask for far, far less and they clearly state who will be eventually published as a result of the competition. Please don't exploit this community - I'd rather there be no monetary prize, but the possibility of good pieces of work being published with a fair share of the profit or pay for the work than an ill-conceived contest that might leave a lot of people disgruntled.


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## Morrus

Discussion moved from thread. The whole "please on post entries in the thread" thing seems to be something everyone's struggling with !


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## Morrus

NancyButtpeach said:


> I have a system I have been working on for 10 years. It is called RIN, and it has a little original artwork along with it. It is also incomplete. I would enter it, but I am not willing to hand over the rights just by entering. However, I may throw together a quick game and post it.




No I wouldn't enter something you've worked 10 years on; it's not worth it. This is designed for something you whip up this week in a few hours. Like those 24 hour RPG contests, but less frantic!


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## Morrus

So, I've made a few changes to the rules (relaxed them a little - I'm *really* not trying to get hold of your labour of love and force you to watch me make millions off it and a movie trilogy; it's just a bit of fun).  My expectation was that I'd get a dozen or so entries, maybe be interested in publishing a couple of them, and then I'd return the rest and (probably) end up hiring the authors of the ones I wanted to publish to polish them up and maybe expand them if necessary.  I figure that's easily covered under "I may approach contestants with an eye to publishing" line though, just in case I don't actually want to publish any of them.


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## Henry

For consideration of those who are concerned about exploitation via this contest:

Are any of you concerned with the following scenario, which is a real possibility:

Contestant A: $1000
Contestant B: $0 & gets published
Morrus: -$1720.00 (after taking winning fees, art costs, time for layout and the actual revenues into account)

In which case, A and B are the ones making out like real bandits here. People can be a bit misinformed here when it comes to the profits of most RPG projects.

In more likelihood, if it isnt like the above it'll be more like "Morrus +$2000" or something, not some oil baron lighting his cigars with $100 bills and extinguishing them in a bowl of contestant tears.


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## tablehop

No, I'm a fairly successful RPG publisher/author myself and this contest is pretty awful all around. "Gets published" isn't any kind of real reward. (Especially when someone else is making all of the actual profit from your work.)



			
				Morrus said:
			
		

> So, I've made a few changes to the rules





So you changed the rules *after* at least three people had entered and agreed to a previous set of rules?


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## Morrus

tablehop said:


> So you changed the rules *after* at least three people had entered and agreed to a previous set of rules? [/COLOR]




You seem angry. All I've done is waived something I was getting before and PMd the people who entered. It's far easier for everyone involved for me to just notifiy them and get their acceptance that way.  If I don't hear back from them, I'll take that as non-agreement.


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## tablehop

It would be a lot less suspect if you'd had a list of exact changes and version histories to consult, considering there are things like money and IP ownership on the line. It's messy and unprofessional.


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## Morrus

tablehop said:


> It would be a lot less suspect if you'd had a list of exact changes and version histories to consult, considering there are things like money and IP ownership on the line. It's messy and unprofessional.




"Suspect"?


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## Dour-n-Taciturn

I honestly don't intend my submission to be any kind of groundbreaking project, it's more of an elaborate house rule set amalgamated from several existing (copyrighted) systems.  I'd prefer to see this contest as a repository of ideas that are put out there for a "what the hey", just to see if anyone will give them a read.  I have no problem with the rules, as they stand.


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## tablehop

Quibble over word choices however you want; my point remains. When you've got things like money and IP ownership involved, you need to have clear and consistent rules. If you change a set of rules after people have already agreed to them (which is already questionable) then you should at least have prior version histories available or a detailed list of how the rules have changed. Especially considering you're taking over ownership of the winner, previously had it set to take over ownership of the losers as well, and you're asking people to indemnify.


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## JamesonCourage

Morrus said:


> You seem angry. All I've done is waived something I was getting before and PMd the people who entered. It's far easier for everyone involved for me to just notifiy them and get their acceptance that way.  If I don't hear back from them, I'll take that as non-agreement.



Yep, I accept the changes, and I knew what I was getting into before. Don't worry about me, folks. (Though I don't mind you worrying about others.)


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## Chris_Nightwing

I do think the new rules are better, if only because there's just the one person who might quibble over rights.

I might enter, and if I win, buy a lifetime gold subscription to the site for $1000? That would be the better prize, psychologically 

Oh, and how about a catchy contest name?


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## Mike Eagling

Why does anyone have a problem with this?

If you don't want to relinquish your idea to EN Publishing the don't submit it. If you feel your idea is amazing and deserves publication then don't submit it to this competition, submit it to a publisher instead.

If I get time I plan to stick to the spirit of the competition, namely writing an RPG in 7 days. I came up with a concept last night and hope to write it up between now and the weekend. Is it original? After a fashion. Is it groundbreaking? God knows. Do I care if Morrus takes it and becomes rich off my labours? Good luck with that.

I have had ideas for ground-breaking RPGs. I have stuff I've been working on throughout my years playing tabletop games. Do I think they'll one day earn me cash? Perhaps. We can all dream. Will I submit any of them to this competition? No, because if I truly believe these ideas are great and will make me rich then I'll develop them and try to get them published by more traditional means.

Do I plan to pluck an idea out of my imagination and cobble it together into something suitable for this competition? Yes. It's a week of my time with the possibility of winning some cash, seeing my idea become a real product, or (much more likely) getting a couple of people say what they think of it.

Where's the controversy in this???


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## jmstar

Why on Earth would anyone participate in this? 

Self-publishing is a thing. If your work is good you can easily make $1000 and retain rights to what you create. Then you can make another $1000.


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## Jim Comer

Hi!

Cool contest. May I submit an adventure written for an open-source RPG, such as Zenobia or Risus?

Thanks!

Jim


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## Morrus

Jim Comer said:


> Cool contest. May I submit an adventure written for an open-source RPG, such as Zenobia or Risus?




I'm afraid not - sorry!  You need to submit an RPG, not an adventure for one.  Though if this goes well, I might consider an adventure contest later in the year.


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## Dour-n-Taciturn

Hitler youth as a theme element for an RPG?  I'd be offended if I wasn't so apathetic...


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## NancyButtpeach

The contest seems fine. If Morrus can make my two hour idea successful, and give me some money or recognition, then I am fine with that... I also hope everyone likes my example of Grog the barbarian.


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## bladestalker

quick and possibly stupid question. You mentioned OGL and licenses. are you more interested in a RPG world or an RPG ruleset? I ask because I have an idea for a ruleset that is kind of an overlay on pathfinder and a world to go with it.

Also what if my submissionis rushed, sloppy but BRILLIANT. will you accept a winnin entry that needs polishing?


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## Morrus

bladestalker said:


> quick and possibly stupid question. You mentioned OGL and licenses. are you more interested in a RPG world or an RPG ruleset? I ask because I have an idea for a ruleset that is kind of an overlay on pathfinder and a world to go with it.




It's a competition for an RPG, not a setting.  Your RPG can have an explicit or implied setting, of course (most do) but a setting on its own doesn't qualify.  Someone has to be able to pick it up, read it, then play it.



> Also what if my submissionis rushed, sloppy but BRILLIANT. will you accept a winnin entry that needs polishing?




I can't possibly predict in advance what entries I would be interested in publishing! However, your entry can be in any condition like - the voting public will choose!


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## bladestalker

Thanks Morris, now to see if I can bang together something between my day job and other writing assignments.

expect someting brillant but sloppy...

or donuts.


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## Adrián Gómez

Hello! Is it a problem if I include some drawings or a design? I mean, just to make it look better. XD


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## Morrus

Adrián Gómez said:


> Hello! Is it a problem if I include some drawings or a design? I mean, just to make it look better. XD




A problem?  No; it's recommended!  Though be sure it's your own work.


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## Deadclown

Morrus said:


> A problem?  No; it's recommended!  Though be sure it's your own work.




Possibly a stupid question, but are public domain images alright?


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## Sanglorian

Deadclown said:


> Possibly a stupid question, but are public domain images alright?




Not stupid, Deadclown - I wondered the same thing!


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## Morrus

That's fine, but make 100% sure they're definitely public domain!


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## malcolm_n

Alright, glad I read this first. I've since updated mine to remove the random art previously included (can't be sure it's public). Anyway, it should be good to go now. And yes, I'm well aware of the rules and accept them.







Morrus said:


> That's fine, but make 100% sure they're definitely public domain!


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## darkcyril

Question on the voting process. How is this going to happen? Is it going to be open to everyone or just to ENWorld members?


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## Morrus

EN World members.  Opening it to everyone makes it far too easy to cheat.


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## Rune

Will voters be able to cast multiple votes (one per entry, of course!), or will it be a vote for one entry only?

Also, will entrants be allowed a vote?


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## Morrus

No, yes, and yes.


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## MrMyth

The contest says that it ends on Sunday at Midnight (your time). I can never remember if that means it ends on Midnight when Sunday _begins_, or the Midnight when Sunday _ends_. In other words, is today the last day for submissions, or is it tomorrow?


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## Morrus

Tomorrow night (the boundary between Sunday night and Monday morning - so you have about 32 hours).


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## Adrián Gómez

I've uploaded my game right now. Drawings and designs are my own work, so I think there'll be no problem with it. 
But the file weight is around 12mb. I just hope it won't give people any trouble to download. :/


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## EditorBFG

Working on my RPG Contest entry up until the last second, I forgot to include the final line in my Open Gaming License section, which I believe is required for it to be technically open: 
_SEVEN DAYS RPG, Copyright 2013, Jeremy Forbing; Author Jeremy Forbing._

Also, ran out of time to do a character sheet. Sigh.

Also, forgot to do a table of contents. Double sigh.

Also, forgot to cut and paste in the Experience Point system *I had already written* from another file that was open on my desktop, despite explicitly referencing Experience Points in the text. Sighing till the cows come home.

Ah well, off for Cinco de Mayo drinking now...


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## Sir Robilar

Uploading the file didn't work for me. Posted the file in a new thread here on meta. Hope it is still ok.


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## Mike Eagling

[MENTION=24719]EditorBFG[/MENTION] I feel your pain. I just re-read my entry back to myself and am cursing my utter lack of proofreading!


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## bladestalker

i suck at proofreading my own work.


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