# NHL Strike



## Iuz (Sep 16, 2004)

Well, as they've been predicting for years the strike is here. And big questions are looming.

When will it end ?  :\ 

Will there be a season this year ?   

Will all the franchises survive ?  :\ 

Will some of the European players go home, never to return ?   

Will some of the older players not be able to come back after a year or more break ?


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## Jeff Wilder (Sep 16, 2004)

It's just so dumb of the players.

I remember back in the early '90s, hockey was poised to finally become _huge_ in the United States.  Mario Lemieux had led my beloved (and now decimated) Pens to two Cups, displaying pure artistry with the puck.  People who'd never seen a hockey game before could talk about the shot Lemieux banked in -- off Roy -- from behind the goal.  You could actually feel the mania growing.  Then what happened?

Strike.

It was like an axe falling on hockey's chance to go truly mainstream in the U.S.

Obviously, the situation is not the same today as it was back then, but if they keep doing this, it never will be.  I'm annoyed by sports strikes of all kinds, but at least baseball players know they're not gonna lose enough of their fanbase to really hurt.  That's just not true for the NHL.  People _will_ get involved in other activities, and quite a few of them won't go back to watching or attending games, at least for quite a while.


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## Iuz (Sep 16, 2004)

On that note here's a clip from the local paper.



			
				The Edmonton Sun said:
			
		

> Both the owners and the players should mull that over. Instead of being the fourth sport in the U.S., behind professional baseball, football and basketball, hockey has now fallen way down the ladder, behind NASCAR, arena football and even professional wrestling (which isn't a real sport) not to mention bowling - at least when it comes to TV ratings.


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## jonesy (Sep 16, 2004)

Iuz said:
			
		

> Will some of the European players go home, never to return?



Many (well many of the few who've been asked) of the Finnish NHL players have said that they are going to come back to Finland to play on our national league (the SM-Liiga). Many of (the many of the few of) them have then continued by saying that as soon as NHL continues they are going back.



			
				Iuz said:
			
		

> ...not to mention bowling - at least when it comes to TV ratings.



Going on a slight tangent here, but...bowling? On TV? Seriously? And people actually watch it?


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## Crothian (Sep 16, 2004)

It pisses me off...I have season tickets!!!

I really hope they get it worked out, but from I read and hear that is not going to happen.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 16, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> It pisses me off...I have season tickets!!!
> 
> I really hope they get it worked out, but from I read and hear that is not going to happen.




I was wondering who the guy who bought *Bluejackets* season tickets was


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## Crothian (Sep 16, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I was wondering who the guy who bought *Bluejackets* season tickets was




Ha ha, very funny.  We might have a very bad team, but its still fun to go watch Hockey.


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## devilbat (Sep 16, 2004)

I was wondering when someone would start this thread.

Here's my take on it.  Keep in mind I am a huge hockey fan.

I hope the strike lasts all season.  I even hope it goes into the following season.  I hope the owners eventually bring in replacement players, and break the Union.

IMO, this is suicide for the NHL.  The players ignorance is amazing.  They play a sport that is regularly beaten in U.S. television ratings by arena football, Nascar, college football, and yes, bowling.  Yet they think that the sport is healthy, and an open market is the only way to go about business.  The American television contract they do have is a farce.  In essence, they're paying ABC to televise games.

Yet, the thought of a salary cap, is an absolute no no.  It works for the two most succesful sports Leagues in North America, the NFL and NBA, but it's not right for the NHL.  

This is what happens when you make Canadian prairie boys millionaires, and you convince them to start expressing their opinions.  (Before anyone freaks out, I am a Canadian prairie boy, thus am allowed to make the derogotory comment, and yes I did have hockey hair at several points in my life).


How can Trevor Linden keep a straight face when looking at the TV camera and saying that he "Understands how the fans feel".  Sorry Teflon Billy, but I hope Bertuzzi punches him in a scrimmage this winter.  Maybe it will knock some sense into him.

It pains me to say that I side with the owners.  They're the ones that caused this problem by paying marginal players obscene amounts of money.  There is no way a third line forward or fifth point man should be making in excess of a million dollars a year.  Hearing John Ferguson JR. complain about the state of the league is hilarious considering his teams payroll.  

BUT, they had to do something, some time.  Now I just hope they show the solidarity that the players are spouting.



> Instead of being the fourth sport in the U.S




Bettman wishes he was the fourth ranked sport in the states.  Hockey's farther down the ladder then that.

Oh and to answer the original questions:

the Europeans will all come back after the strike.  They want the same as Cuba did from his agent, "show me the money".

Some players will retire.  Mike Keane, Mark Messier and James Patrick off the top of my head.

I predict the franchises will all survive, unfortunately.


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## devilbat (Sep 16, 2004)

On a off topic, off topic note.

Did anyone else see Stu Grimson on TSN's "Off the Record" yesterday?

I hate seeing a guy who squeezed every penny he could out of the NHL as a goon, go on TV and rip the people that enabled him to become a fairly wealthy man, to afford to go to college, and to buy a nice suit.

What a jerk.


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## Maerdwyn (Sep 16, 2004)

Last season on TV, nationally in the US, hockey was beaten on three separate occasions, head-to-head, by NBC's broadcast of curling tournaments.


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## drothgery (Sep 16, 2004)

wilder_jw said:
			
		

> Obviously, the situation is not the same today as it was back then, but if they keep doing this, it never will be. I'm annoyed by sports strikes of all kinds, but at least baseball players know they're not gonna lose enough of their fanbase to really hurt. That's just not true for the NHL. People _will_ get involved in other activities, and quite a few of them won't go back to watching or attending games, at least for quite a while.



It took years of terrific baseball, including the tail end of Cal Ripken's streak, the McGwire vs. Sosa chase to break Roger Maris' home run record, Barry Bonds, a ton of new ballparks, some truly great players bursting onto the scene, the Yankees returning to dominating Evil Empire form, and my Indians being the best offensive team in baseball from 1995-2001 for attendence levels to reach pre-strike levels. If we'd had a decade where nothing exciting happened in baseball (like, say, the 1980s), I think baseball would still be recovering from the 1994 strike.

obDisclaimer: I rarely watch hockey outside of the Olympics.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 17, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Ha ha, very funny.  We might have a very bad team, but its still fun to go watch Hockey.




You guys hired the talented (if injury-prone) *Andrew Cassles* away from us, so you can't be _all_ bad  :\


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 17, 2004)

Maerdwyn said:
			
		

> Last season on TV, nationally in the US, hockey was beaten on three separate occasions, head-to-head, by NBC's broadcast of curling tournaments.




That's because curling is _awesome_


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 17, 2004)

Devilbat said:
			
		

> It pains me to say that I side with the owners. They're the ones that caused this problem by paying marginal players obscene amounts of money. There is no way a third line forward or fifth point man should be making in excess of a million dollars a year. Hearing John Ferguson JR. complain about the state of the league is hilarious considering his teams payroll.
> 
> BUT, they had to do something, some time. Now I just hope they show the solidarity that the players are spouting.




What they should offer is to _honor the agreements they have made up to this point_. The owners said they would pay these guys this kind of money. No one made them, for some reason they felt this was sound business sense.

Why on Earth should they be able to just say "Yeah, I know we signed a contract, but actually forget it." Is that the nature of a contract in your neck of the woods?

If they want to change the amounts they pay players, that mechanism is already in place: it's called _contract negotiation_. 

If the owners can't trust the New York Rangers to not drive up salaries...then how _united_ are they exactly?


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 17, 2004)

Devilbat said:
			
		

> How can Trevor Linden keep a straight face when looking at the TV camera and saying that he "Understands how the fans feel". Sorry Teflon Billy, but I hope Bertuzzi punches him in a scrimmage this winter. Maybe it will knock some sense into him.




Trevor doesn;t get into many fights but he has never _lost_ one. 

He also shoved a guy _through_ the glass at one point.

You wouldn;t think so to look at him, but *Linden* vs *Bertuzzi* would be closer than you might htink.

(assuming Bert didn't get him from behind)


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## Stone Angel (Sep 17, 2004)

Bring on the scabs!! Remember when the NFL did the same thing? This season saved football as we know it. I hope it does the same for Hockey. I love hockey. But I hate to watch it on TV. 

Crothian are the Bluejackets semi pro?

The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Crothian (Sep 17, 2004)

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> Crothian are the Bluejackets semi pro?




They are the bravest team in the NHL...what other "semi pro" team plays with the big boys...


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 17, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> They are the bravest team in the NHL...what other "semi pro" team plays with the big boys...




The Pittsburgh Penguins


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## Crothian (Sep 17, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> The Pittsburgh Penguins




They might be doing bad now, but they had their good years.


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## devilbat (Sep 17, 2004)

> Why on Earth should they be able to just say "Yeah, I know we signed a contract, but actually forget it." Is that the nature of a contract in your neck of the woods?




Noooooo, but in my neck of the woods we don't forget about that cute little trick many players utilize to get around a contract, called "holding out".  

Remember Pavel Bure with the Cunucks?  He still had years left on his exsisting contract.  He was making plenty of money, the fans loved him, the toast of British Columbia.  What did he do?  Oh yeah, held out until traded.  

Nobody should kid themselves to believing that the players would continue to play without a Collective Bargaining Agreement.  If the owners didn't lock them out, they would be striking.

Oh yes, the owners did agree to pay these guys, and they should be held ultimately responsible for the state of the game.  BUT, they own the teams.  If they want to change things, they should be able to.  If players don't like it, they should go to Sweden, Finalnd, Russia or anywhere else they have a pro league.  

But wait, the owners can't get together and agree to change the way they do things, because that would be collusion.  Remember what happened in Baseball with that C word.

Anyway, the cracks are starting to show.  John Madden of the Devils was quoted in a New Jersey newspaper saying that he would agree to a salary cap, if thats what it took to get the season underway.

GO OWNERS!


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## DClingman (Sep 17, 2004)

So I hadn't weighed in here on this issue. I am a bigtime Pens fan and have been watching and playing hockey for years.

It's really sad to see things decline into this state. I am thinking of how the Pens were (and might still be for all I know) close to bankrupting the team. The profit margins in sports are just not what they used to be. There are too many distractions and I think that people are getting alot more wiser with money. 

Everytime I cram my big butt into a seat and say "ahhh this is what $50+ dollars buys me", I get pissed. The peanut man (who in our case looks like OJ in Orlando) comes around and wants 5 bucks from me... He doesn't want to give me peanuts, just get 5 bucks. 

This stuff is crazy expensive these days... It's just not fun anymore, even at its best.  Who is getting screwed here? The Fans. The people who kept this sport alive when the WHAlers were in Hartford and the Nordiques in Quebec. Back when hockey wasn't even this known, the fans stayed the course because hockey knew its roots. It came from legends like Bobby Orr, Rocket Richard. Those guys got ripped on pay, but played for the love of the game. I don't say that people shouldn't be paid for the skill, but geez.....

I went to see Rush a few weeks ago on the 30th anniversary tour. Great show, but I paid $70 to stand in the rain to see them play. They didn't know it was going to rain, and I was covered a bit, but I had to keep thinking about that.. Maybe I need to quit making RPGs and get a real job so I have some money to spend.. 

Back to Hockey... If we get scabs.... PLEASE let them be the Hanson brothers from Slap Shot. Now THAT is something I would pay $50 to see. 

Dustin


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## Knightfall (Sep 17, 2004)

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> ...are the Bluejackets semi pro?




Wow, that just shows how obscure some of the NHL teams are. And if you want to know who the semi-/minor pro teams of the AHL are:

*Official site of the AHL*
http://www.theahl.com/

Here's the main new item from the page...

_Thu, September 16, 2004_
*AHL teams getting stocked for new season*
With NHL teams locked out effective Thursday morning, all 30 organizations are continuing to make sure their AHL affiliates are ready to go for the 2004-05 season. 

The biggest name to find himself en route to the AHL is future Hall of Fame goaltender *Dominik Hasek*, who will begin a conditioning assignment in Binghamton when the Senators' training camp opens on Sept. 26. Hasek, a six-time Vezina Trophy winner, two-time NHL MVP, 2002 Stanley Cup champion and 1998 Olympic gold medalist, signed with Ottawa in July after missing much of the 2003-04 season due to injury. 

Ottawa has also assigned defenseman *Anton Volchenkov* and 2003 AHL All-Rookie forwards *Jason Spezza* and *Antoine Vermette* to Binghamton. 

The Chicago Blackhawks have sent 22 players to Norfolk: goaltenders *Craig Anderson*, *Michael Leighton*, *Adam Munro* and *Michael Brodeur*; forwards *Rene Bourque*, *Brandin Cote*, *Matt Ellison*, *Matt Keith*, *Alexander Kojevnikov*, *Quintin Laing*, *Travis Moen*, *Igor Radulov*, *Tuomo Ruutu*, *Pavel Vorobiev* and *Mikhail Yakubov*; and forwards *Anton Babchuk*, *Scott Balan*, *Michal Barinka*, *Vladimir Gusev*, *Duncan Keith*, *Nick Kuiper* and *Jim Wisniewski*. 

The Providence Bruins announced that six players have been assigned to the club by the parent Boston Bruins. Goaltender *Hannu Toivonen*, defensemen *Kevin Dallman* and *Milan Jurcina*, center *Brad Boyes* and wingers *Martin Samuelsson* and *Colton Orr* have all been added to the Providence roster. 

Late Wednesday, the Columbus Blue Jackets assigned the following players to Syracuse: forwards *Steven Goertzen*, *Tim Jackman*, *Tyler Kolarik*, *Greg Mauldin*, *Joe Motzko*, *Mike Pandolfo*, *Raffaele Sannitz*, *Brandon Sugden*, *Alexander Svitov*, *Matthias Trattnig* and *Nikolai Zherdev*; defensemen *Aaron Johnson*, *Prestin Ryan* and *Ole-Kristian Tollefsen*; and goaltenders *Pascal Leclaire* and *Andrew Penner*. 

Zherdev, 19, was the fourth overall pick in the 2003 NHL Entry Draft. He recorded 13 goals and 21 assists in 57 games for Columbus last season. 

The Toronto Maple Leafs assigned the following players to St. John's: goaltenders *Mikael Tellqvist*, *Jean-Francois Racine* and *Todd Ford*; defensemen *Brendan Bell*, *Carlo Colaiacovo*, *Dominic D'Amour*, *Jay Harrison*, *Regan Kelly*, *Tyson Marsh*, *David Turon*, *Ian White* and *Andrew Wozniewski*; and forwards *Nathan Barrett*, *Chris St. Jacques*, *Ben Ondrus*, *Jeremy Williams*, *Matt Stajan* and *Kyle Wellwood*. 

The Ottawa Senators assigned nine players to their AHL affiliate in Binghamton: forwards *Brandon Bochenski*, *Derek Campbell*, *Danny Bois*, *Arpad Mihaly*, *Grant Potulny*, *Greg Watson*; defensemen *Neil Komadoski* and *Jan Platil*; and goaltender *Kelly Guard*. 

The Dallas Stars have assigned goaltender *Dan Ellis*, defenseman *Trevor Daley* and forwards *Steve Ott* and *Antti Miettinen* to the Hamilton Bulldogs, and goaltender *Mike Smith*, center *Marius Holtet*, left wing *David Bararuk* and right wing *Junior Lessard* to Houston. 

The 24-year-old Ellis, 20-year-old Daley, 22-year-old Ott and 24-year-old Miettinen combined for 117 NHL games with Dallas in 2003-04, while Lessard won the Hobey Baker Award as the top collegiate player in the United States in 2003-04, playing for the University of Minnesota-Duluth. The Stars will be assigning players to Hamilton and Houston this season, before launching a full affiliation in Iowa in 2005-06. 

Also Wednesday evening, the Tampa Bay Lightning signed right wing *Andre Deveaux* to a standard rookie contract, and assigned him to Springfield along with four-time AHL All-Star center *Craig Darby*, left wing *Steve McLaren*, center *Jarrod Skalde* and right wing *Shane Willis*. 

Deveaux, a 6-foot-3, 220-pound native of Freeport, Bahamas, was an invitee at the Traverse City Prospects Tournament which concluded Tuesday, and recorded two assists in three games. Originally drafted by Montreal in 2002, the 20-year-old center played four seasons in the Ontario Hockey League with Belleville and Owen Sound, recording 42 goals, 71 assists and 431 penalty minutes in 249 games. 

The Buffalo Sabres have assigned 12 players to Rochester: *Paul Gaustad*, *Ryan Jorde*, *Sean McMorrow*, *Ryan Miller*, *Jiri Novotny*, *Nathan Paetsch*, *Daniel Paille*, *Jason Pominville*, *Derek Roy*, *Michael Ryan*, *Chris Thorburn* and *Thomas Vanek*. 

Paille, 20, was the Sabres’ first-round pick in the 2002 NHL Entry Draft. He spent the past four seasons with Guelph (OHL), and tallied 80 points in 59 games a year ago. Vanek, 20, passed up his final two years of eligibility at the University of Minnesota to sign with the Sabres earlier this month. He was the fifth overall pick in the NHL draft after helping the Gophers to the NCAA title in 2003. 

The Carolina Hurricanes sent 13 players to Lowell on Wednesday, including forwards *Ryan Bayda*, *Gordie Dwyer*, *Colin Forbes*, *Chad Larose*, *Eric Staal* and *Mike Zigomanis*; defensemen *Sean Curry*, *Brad Fast*, *Danny Richmond*, *Allan Rourke* and *Bruno St. Jacques* and goaltenders *Cam Ward* and *Rob Zepp*. Staal (2nd in 2003) and Ward (25th in 2002) were recent first-round draft picks by the Hurricanes. 

The defending Calder Cup champion Milwaukee Admirals have received 19 players from the Nashville Predators: goaltender *Brian Finley*; defensemen *Dan Hamhuis*, *Andrew Hutchinson*, *Kevin Klein*, *Andrei Mukhachev*, *Ryan Suter* and *Greg Zanon*; and forwards *Paul Brown*, *Vernon Fiddler*, *Simon Gamache*, *Darren Haydar*, *Tony Hrkac*, *Libor Pivko*, *Brandon Segal*, *Cam Severson*, *Timofei Shishkanov*, *Wyatt Smith*, *Jerred Smithson*, *Jordin Tootoo*, *Scottie Upshall* and *Jeremy Yablonski*. 

The Edmonton Oilers assigned 17 players to their AHL affiliate, the Edmonton Road Runners, including four -- *Mike Bishai*, *Doug Lynch*, *Tony Salmelainen* and *Jarret Stoll* -- who skated for the Oilers last season. Lynch was an AHL All-Star and a member of the league's All-Rookie Team in 2004. 

Also assigned to the Road Runners were forwards *Dan Baum*, *Kyle Brodziak*, *Ed Caron*, *Joe Cullen*, *J.J. Hunter*, *Brock Radunske* and *Brad Winchester*; defensemen *Jason Platt*, *Mathieu Roy*, *Kenny Smith* and *Jeff Woywitka*; and goaltenders *Jeff Drouin-Deslauriers* and *Mike Morrison*. 

The Los Angeles Kings, the parent club of the Manchester Monarchs, on Wednesday assigned 13 players to Manchester. On the way to the Monarchs are forwards *Mike Cammalleri*, *Matt Ryan*, *Yanick Lehoux*, *Noah Clarke*, *Scott Barney*, *Dustin Brown*, *Greg Hogeboom*, *Petr Kanko* and *George Parros*; defensemen *Tim Gleason* and *Denis Grebeshkov* and goaltenders *Barry Brust* and *Adam Hauser*. 

The labor disruption in the NHL will have no discernible effect on the AHL, which will see team training camps open on Sept. 26, the preseason kick off on Oct. 1 and the 69th regular season in league history get underway on Oct. 13. The AHL has its own collective bargaining agreement with its players’ association -- the PHPA -- effective through 2007.


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## Tom Cashel (Sep 17, 2004)

I can't believe how ignorant this thread is. It's a *LOCK OUT*, not a Strike. A strike is triggered by the union. In this case, the OWNERS have LOCKED OUT the players. Got that? The owners have decided there will be no season, so that they can unilaterally change the CBA. THEN the strike will happen. 

Sorry for the capital letters, but given the erroneous thread title, it bears repeating that *the owners have locked out the players* who offered to give back 5% of their salaries for the coming season.

Yes, the owners and the players' union both sicken me. It sickens me that there won't be any hockey. It sickens me that they couldn't reach an agreement. It sickens me that they don't realize how their trap-happy, clutch-and-grab, mediocre hockey has just about killed the sport in the U.S.

But keep in mind that the players were the ones willing to make concessions, at least.

(And the idea that the NY Rangers are responsible for driving up salaries is so beyond anything resembling common sense I can hardly comprehend it. If that's the case, be sure to get on the Red Wings' case too--their salaried contracts amounted to more than the Rangers' last year. Also, if the TEAMS are responsible for this mess...how can you be on the side of the owners??? It does not...make...sense.)


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## Umbran (Sep 17, 2004)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> It does not...make...sense.




Sense?  You want _sense_?!?  Whatever made you think sense has anything to do with it?

You're talking about a situation where a bunch of people get payed obscene amounts of money to play a game (or to manage the stuff around playing the game) and then bicker over exactly how obscene the amount should be.  

Sense when out the window when folks figured it'd be more fun to watch the game than to play it themselves


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## Stone Angel (Sep 17, 2004)

You know when I first read this page I thought that hey they are not on strike because I had just read an article on ESPN.com about it. Then I started reading the thread and got caught up in it. Must be why I call the telemarketers to give them a piece of my mind and end up buying something.

Anyway I am not a big hockey fan but I love going to see my Indianapolis Ice play. So that is why I asked Crothian if the Bluejackets were an amatuer team, being so close and never seeing them play. But I don't really watch hockey on TV untill the race for the cup and then maybe only if the series is good.

The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## devilbat (Sep 17, 2004)

> I can't believe how ignorant this thread is. It's a LOCK OUT, not a Strike. A strike is triggered by the union. In this case, the OWNERS have LOCKED OUT the players. Got that? The owners have decided there will be no season, so that they can unilaterally change the CBA. THEN the strike will happen.




Ummmm...yes and no.

Yes it is a lock out.  No there is no CBA to be unilaterally changed.  The previous existing CBA expired midnight Wednesday.



> it bears repeating that the owners have locked out the players who offered to give back 5% of their salaries for the coming season.





How generous.  The average salary in the league is 1.8 Million.  Five percent of that is ninety thousand dollars.  What a bunch of humanitarians that are wlling to drop the average salary to 1.791 million a season. 




> It sickens me that they don't realize how their trap-happy, clutch-and-grab, mediocre hockey has just about killed the sport in the U.S.




Hey, there's something we can agree on.




> But keep in mind that the players were the ones willing to make concessions, at least.




1.8 million average yearly salary to 1.791 million.  Yep, let's not forget about that.




> (And the idea that the NY Rangers are responsible for driving up salaries is so beyond anything resembling common sense I can hardly comprehend it. If that's the case, be sure to get on the Red Wings' case too--their salaried contracts amounted to more than the Rangers' last year.




Yep, add the Blues, Maple Leafs and Avalanche to the list.



> Also, if the TEAMS are responsible for this mess...how can you be on the side of the owners???




Easily.  I love hockey, and I want to see it survive.  I want to see it played in places where many people appreciate and support it.  The truth of the matter is that it is not a major sport in the U.S. as a whole, and never has been.  And I don't believe the league can survive in it's current incarnation.


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## Iuz (Sep 20, 2004)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> I can't believe how ignorant this thread is. It's a *LOCK OUT*, not a Strike.




While I will admit err on this point, I don't think it is as big a deal as you make it, and you certainly could have been more polite.





			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> But keep in mind that the players were the ones willing to make concessions, at least.




Both sides have offered "consessions" though in both cases what they have offered is not in the same ballpark (arena?) as the other.



			
				Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> Also, if the TEAMS are responsible for this mess...how can you be on the side of the owners??? It does not...make...sense.




Teams are responsible for driving up salaries the same way middle class parents are responsible for driving up home prices (everyone wants a better life for their kids so the demand for homes in nice neighborhoods drives prices beyond what anyone can afford)

I think the NHL has made many mistakes in the last 15 years, but I do not blame them for high salaries (except in so far as the settlement they reached with the players in 94). After all, who wants to be the Edmonton Oilers (who have let go every player that demanded higher wages since winning the cup in '90).


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## Piratecat (Sep 20, 2004)

Please don't be rude, folks. Even if you're upset about the lockout, there's no reason to be nasty to other fans.


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## Piratecat (Sep 20, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> That's because curling is _awesome_




I don't know, man. I usually get bored about the time they put the hot rollers in.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 20, 2004)

So here are my opinions on this entire mess, some of it contracdictory I know:

The owners:  Yep, the greedy           made this mess by paying players an unreasonable amount of money in an effort to buy a championship.  Unfortunately having put themsleves in this situation, what can they do?  Negotiate with the players, break the union or declare bankruptcy.  They do need to find a way to drop ticket prices and put more butts into seats.  Nothing looks worse on TV than a game where most of the seats near ice level (the $$$ seats) are empty.

The players:  Just as greedy as the owners are - maybe even more.  Quit whining and play!  Your choices are: play hockey in North America for less money, hold your ground and not play at all - and not get any money, or go play somewhere else for less money.

The game:  The trap has done more to kill hockey than just about anything.  I don't think you can make an enforcable rule against it (like illegal defense in the NBA), so maybe the game should change to be 60 minutes of four-on-four hockey (added bonus of reducing payrolls as well!).

The playoffs:  The NHL needs to shorten the season some so they are not competing with the NBA for playoff airtime. In addition the number of teams making the playoffs needs to be cut back - make the regular season meaningful.

The fans:  Its expensive, but try and make a game or two (when they start playing again, that is).  And when you are there - whoop it up!  I know it isn't always easy and certain new arenas make it tough (Fleet Center - it was so much louder in the Garden), but make the game sound like it is exciting for fans watching on TV.  Try and recruit new fans to the sport.  Let your local station carrying the games know you are watching - let sponsors know you saw their ads during the game - help the game generate revenue.  And if you can, don't forget those poor guys at the local restaurants and bars near the arenas who won't have people showing up before games.

P.S. KnightFall - thanks for the info on the AHL, I was trying to find out if they were affected as well, but had not found the right source (cause going to that league's website is not obvious   ).  Looks like a trip to Providence might be in order.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 20, 2004)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> The fans:  Its expensive, but try and make a game or two (when they start playing again, that is).  And when you are there - whoop it up!  I know it isn't always easy and certain new arenas make it tough (Fleet Center - it was so much louder in the Garden), but make the game sound like it is exciting for fans watching on TV.  Try and recruit new fans to the sport.  Let your local station carrying the games know you are watching - let sponsors know you saw their ads during the game - help the game generate revenue.  And if you can, don't forget those poor guys at the local restaurants and bars near the arenas who won't have people showing up before games.




And if you're in Boston and need the fix, there are four top quality division-I hockey teams all T accessible.  If you're looking for atmosphere, I suggest checking out Conte Forum or Walter Brown Arena (or next Spring Harry Agganis Arena) for a BC-BU game.  Next February there's a little annual tournament, pitting those four Boston teams together...if you want to see the FleetCenter rocking, a tight Beanpot Championship game is just the ticket.
For the cost conscious, the tickets are pretty decently priced too, especially compared to professional prices.

Best of all, you can see a bunch of kids playing their hearts out for the love of the game and a shot at a dream (yes, the NHL, it's still the dream for these kids).  The no red-line rule is also pretty good.  

I'm just saying it's an option, see?


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 20, 2004)

AIM-54 said:
			
		

> And if you're in Boston and need the fix, there are four top quality division-I hockey teams all T accessible.  If you're looking for atmosphere, I suggest checking out Conte Forum or Walter Brown Arena (or next Spring Harry Agganis Arena) for a BC-BU game.  Next February there's a little annual tournament, pitting those four Boston teams together...if you want to see the FleetCenter rocking, a tight Beanpot Championship game is just the ticket.
> For the cost conscious, the tickets are pretty decently priced too, especially compared to professional prices.
> 
> Best of all, you can see a bunch of kids playing their hearts out for the love of the game and a shot at a dream (yes, the NHL, it's still the dream for these kids).  The no red-line rule is also pretty good.
> ...




It is a very good option.  I've been to Conte for a couple of BC-U Maine and BC-UNH games and it was great.  Never made the Beanpot, but maybe I will try to snag tix (my next door neighbor always seems to have connections).  I'm just a die-hard Bruins fan, so seeing the black and gold on the ice in Providence would be nice as well.

Oh, and one good thing to the lockout - maybe we'll get a shortened season - say 40 games.  The Bruins recently seem start the season great and then fall apart.  Maybe in a short season they won't get to the collapse and will just win.


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## AIM-54 (Sep 20, 2004)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Oh, and one good thing to the lockout - maybe we'll get a shortened season - say 40 games.  The Bruins recently seem start the season great and then fall apart.  Maybe in a short season they won't get to the collapse and will just win.




I have more than a few friends that look forward to that day!   

And for those who have yet to be convinced, allow me to attach this link:

 NHL Fan's Guide to College Hockey

[/end evangelism]


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 20, 2004)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> ...They do need to find a way to drop ticket prices and put more butts into seats.  Nothing looks worse on TV than a game where most of the seats near ice level (the $$$ seats) are empty.




Oh man, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but do you _seriosly_ think a victory for the owners is going to have a positive effect (for fans) on Ticket prices?

The owners want ticket prices right where they are.



> The players:  Just as greedy as the owners are - maybe even more.  Quit whining and play!  Your choices are: play hockey in North America for less money, hold your ground and not play at all - and not get any money, or go play somewhere else for less money.




...

I am almost literally speechless. Not wanting to work a job--one in which you fairly negotiated your wage to the satisfaction of both parties--for half pay is _greedy_.

I'm wondering if during the "may I have more soup?" scene in Oliver Twist if your thoughts went along the line of "_Get back to work Oliver, you've had some soup_"



> The trap has done more to kill hockey than just about anything.  I don't think you can make an enforcable rule against it (like illegal defense in the NBA), so maybe the game should change to be 60 minutes of four-on-four hockey (added bonus of reducing payrolls as well!).




Why 60 minutes? I think they should keep 5 on five but move to international-sized ice and possibly eliminate the redline



> The playoffs:  The NHL needs to shorten the season some so they are not competing with the NBA for playoff airtime.




Preach it brother! I don't care one whit about the NBA, but an 82-game season is just too frickin long.



> tion the number of teams making the playoffs needs to be cut back - make the regular season meaningful.




Amen!



> the Fans:  Its expensive, but try and make a game or two (when they start playing again, that is).  And when you are there - whoop it up!  I know it isn't always easy and certain new arenas make it tough (Fleet Center - it was so much louder in the Garden), but make the game sound like it is exciting for fans watching on TV.




Back when the Canucks sucked, they used to exhort the dead-silent fans to "Get into it" and "whoop it up".

When they rebuilt the team around the _being exciting_ concept, fans cheered.

I think this goes back to your earlier "the trap has ruined the game" comment.

Nobody cares about a win if you get it by being a stultifyingly boring team playing a style everyone hates.

Except for the residents of New Jersey. They can't get enough of watching paint dry it would seem


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## GlassJaw (Sep 20, 2004)

The main problem is the story state the NHL game is.  Until that is fixed, none of financial problems will be.

The funny thing is (or not so funny) is that the owners had _numerous_ chances to fix the ills of the game itself.  Instead, they chose to expand and expand, completely watering down the game.  Each time they did, the league got some quick cash but in the end, the game suffered.  

There also has been a bunch of new arenas built.  The owners could have stepped up and decided from here on out, all ice rink will be larger.  But that means less seats which means less revenue.  Can't do that.

Bottom line: there needs to be less teams.  The NHL does not cater to its superstars.  The game is slow.  It rewards less-skilled players and goons.  The owners think the fans want fighting and penalties.  The diehards might but they are in the minority.  The NHL is going to attract new fans with the product they continusouly put on the ice.



> You're talking about a situation where a bunch of people get payed obscene amounts of money to play a game (or to manage the stuff around playing the game) and then bicker over exactly how obscene the amount should be.




So what?  You can say that about a ton of things.  It's the American way.  Honestly, I don't really have a problem with it.  How is playing a professional sport any different than working for a company in which you get paid a ridiculous salary?  No one complains about brokers on Wall Street.  They aren't making a positive contribution to the betterment of society.  But why do they get paid so much?  Because they're making _someone else_ a ton of cash.

To put it in perspective, most owners (especially baseball) make enough money to put the entire salary of their team with revenue from TV contracts ONLY.  Everything else (ticket sales, merchandise, etc) is complete PROFIT.  Sports are big business, never forget that.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 20, 2004)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Oh man, I'm not trying to be a dick here, but do you _seriosly_ think a victory for the owners is going to have a positive effect (for fans) on Ticket prices?
> 
> The owners want ticket prices right where they are.




Oh, I do not doubt for a second that nothing will change there, that's just wishful thinking
...


> I am almost literally speechless. Not wanting to work a job--one in which you fairly negotiated your wage to the satisfaction of both parties--for half pay is _greedy_.
> 
> I'm wondering if during the "may I have more soup?" scene in Oliver Twist if your thoughts went along the line of "_Get back to work Oliver, you've had some soup_"




Well, I didn't see read Oliver Twist, but I think little Oliver was being exploited.  I don't think that is quite the case for NHL players - or if it is I'm doing outright slave labor   



> Why 60 minutes? I think they should keep 5 on five but move to international-sized ice and possibly eliminate the redline




Anything to end the trap!  

I think it is very interesting that a team named the Devils are the bane of exciting hockey...I see it as proof that hockey is in fact a sport from heaven


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## devilbat (Sep 20, 2004)

> I am almost literally speechless. Not wanting to work a job--one in which you fairly negotiated your wage to the satisfaction of both parties--for half pay is greedy.




Funny, you can say the same for the players.

When I negotiate a contract for my services, I don't have the right to go to my employer and say "You know boss, Jason, John and Dave get paid the same as I do, but I'm three times more productive then they are, so I'm going to go home and wait for you to triple my salary.  Even though I was happy when I negotiated my wage, now I want more.  Oh and by the way, I want you to open up your books, and show me how much money the company is making."


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## The Sigil (Sep 20, 2004)

And here are my thoughts, as a non-hockey fan.


			
				Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> The owners
> 
> The players:  Just as greedy as the owners are - maybe even more.



Again, remember, this is a non-hockey fan (though I am a fan of other sports - basketball, aussie rules football, somewhat soccer, somewhat US football)...

The players, IMO, are more greedy than the owners because they do not want a salary cap.  They want artificially high salaries and, in fact, it is their huge salaries that are killing the game.  Yes, the owners are stupid to pay the players the money they are paying them, BUT a little enlightened self-interest goes a long way here... it's not like these guys are making starvation wages... but in demanding a bigger paycheck every day, they're killing the golden goose... hockey, more than any other sport, relies on "fans in the seats" for its revenue (especially in light of their recent TV deal).  The higher player salaries go, the higher ticket prices must go... and with any supply-demand curve, the higher the prices go, the lower demand goes... once the ticket prices hit the point where the demand drops to less than the capacity of the arena, each "upping" of the price will drop the total seats sold (I think it's already past that point, myself), meaning the harder you try to squeeze, the less results you get... the players don't understand - or, more precisely, don't want to admit to themselves - that at this point, raising salaries... and with them the prices of seats... will lead to LESS overall revenue now, not more, because you're losing fans exponentially versus ticket price increases.

This is not only a problem for hockey, mind you... it is endemic to the NBA and NFL (MLB, for what it's worth, still has a lot of very reasonably priced... by which I mean under $10... tickets available for most games, so they're not to that point yet).

The owners, IMO are more stupid than the players because they "need" a salary cap... but as has been mentioned before, if they get together and agree to practice fiscal responsibility, that's called "collusion" and gets them into big trouble with the government.

The owners have, I think, realized that their revenue streams are, for the most part, maxxed out... they CAN'T get any more money in.  I think the TV deal - which basically is "you broadcast our games for free" - was a cold dose of reality for the owners.  Hockey fans probably don't want to hear it, but the cold, hard truth is that right now, there's simply *no interest in hockey* among the population at large.  (More on this shortly.)

As a business owner, when I realize that my revenue stream has peaked, I then look at expenses... and there's one expense that continues to grow unabated - player salaries.  At some point, I have to decide to cut that expense or go under.  A little simple math tells me that if the average price of a seat at an NHL arena is $100 (on the high side, perhaps), and there are 20,000 seats at an arena, and 40 home games per year, I'm going to pull down $100 x 20,000 x 40 = $80 million in revenue each year.  

Player salaries are averaging $1.83 million.  With a 25-man roster, that's what, $45 million?  So I'm left, as an owner, with $35 million, right?  That's a pretty good income stream?

Not exactly.

Some of that has to go to paying rent, electricity, property tax, buying uniforms, sticks, zambonis, and paying all the "common folk" that work at the arena... the ushers, the guys in the concession stands, and so forth.  There's also travel expenses to cart my team from one city to another... and first-class hotel accomodations... that's not cheap, either.  AND the players want a "per diem" over and above their salary when on the road.  Oh, AND the NHL will be taking their cut as well for operating expenses, providing officials, etc.  Anyone really think that this doesn't account for close to another $30 million or so?

And the players say, "we need MORE money."  The players are in denial.  There's simply no money left.  As a business owner, I am not going to be pleased if I'm already operating on razor-thin margins and I'm being told that I need to pony up more money because I'm a cheapskate.

I have more sympathy for the owners than for the players because the owners are "victims" (if you can call it that) of being in competition with other owners, thus driving up salary expenses through the roof - though they've realized it can't keep happening, they can't formally cap these expenses without negotiating it into the CBA.  In other words, they're legally prohibited from trying to solve the problem any other way.  The players, though, I have no sympathy at all for because they're simply trying to ignore/deny reality.  If there's $50 on the table, you simply can't slice it into 100 pieces of $1 each, which is what the players seem to be trying to do.



> The game:  The trap has done more to kill hockey than just about anything.  I don't think you can make an enforcable rule against it (like illegal defense in the NBA), so maybe the game should change to be 60 minutes of four-on-four hockey (added bonus of reducing payrolls as well!).



The solution is the same solution I offer for soccer if it ever wants to be accepted into the mainstream of US sporting culture.  Simply put, you must remove *all* "off-sides" rules (in hockey, that includes both "off-sides" and the "two-line pass" as well as "icing") that occur while the ball/puck/etc. is "live."  You do that, and the neutral zone trap goes away, simply because there's no longer a neutral zone.  It would also increase scoring, which the US sporting public prefers (this is something the NBA is still struggling with, though I contend it's because they refuse to call the game the way it is meant to be called - contact == foul, not "advantage from contact" == foul, and even then maybe not - if the NBA tightened up its calls significantly, you'd see a huge increase in scoring... the NFL is trying to increase the scoring by enforcing the "no contact after 5 yards" rule... the NFL gets it).  The NFL does *not* need to eliminate the off-side, because (a) it only applies when the ball is "dead" - once the ball is put into play, if you did not start "off-sides" you cannot later become "off-sides" ("ineligible downfield receivers" rule should probably go, though, by this logic) and (b) football is a special case because of the nature of the game... the object of the game is to simply advance the ball horizontally along the field, as opposed to trying to get the ball into a specific, small target (soccer, basketball, hockey), and therefore "splitting the field in half" horizontally along the plane of the ball itself makes some intuitive sense.



> The playoffs:  The NHL needs to shorten the season some so they are not competing with the NBA for playoff airtime. In addition the number of teams making the playoffs needs to be cut back - make the regular season meaningful.



Here, I don't think so.  The NHL season is their primary source of revenue... cut from 80 to 60 games and you cut your revenue by 25% also.  The NHL actually has it right in the playoffs and the NBA doesn't - games are played pretty much as back-to-back as travel will allow.  The NHL is pretty much through its playoff period before the NBA has gotten out of the first round.  I don't see much need for change here.



> The fans:  Its expensive, but try and make a game or two (when they start playing again, that is).  And when you are there - whoop it up!  I know it isn't always easy and certain new arenas make it tough (Fleet Center - it was so much louder in the Garden), but make the game sound like it is exciting for fans watching on TV.  Try and recruit new fans to the sport.  Let your local station carrying the games know you are watching - let sponsors know you saw their ads during the game - help the game generate revenue.  And if you can, don't forget those poor guys at the local restaurants and bars near the arenas who won't have people showing up before games.



*shrugs* There's only so much a devoted fan can do... I think the product must improve - notably by implementing rules changes to increase offense and emphasizing skill over thuggery - before "recruiting" will do more than convince someone to watch a game with you and then go back to their "regular" sporting lifestyle.

My 2 cents.

-The Sigil


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 21, 2004)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> ...I think it is very interesting that a team named the Devils are the bane of exciting hockey...I see it as proof that hockey is in fact a sport from heaven




Agreed

that said, the very _moment_ New Jersey trades for *Miroslav Satan*, I am buying that jersey


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 21, 2004)

devilbat said:
			
		

> Funny, you can say the same for the players.
> 
> When I negotiate a contract for my services, I don't have the right to go to my employer and say "You know boss, Jason, John and Dave get paid the same as I do, but I'm three times more productive then they are, so I'm going to go home and wait for you to triple my salary.  Even though I was happy when I negotiated my wage, now I want more.  Oh and by the way, I want you to open up your books, and show me how much money the company is making."




For the record, I think players holding out is crappy policy as well. Are you saying that they should both have the ability to ignore contracts?

I'm saying neither should.


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## devilbat (Sep 21, 2004)

> For the record, I think players holding out is crappy policy as well. Are you saying that they should both have the ability to ignore contracts?
> 
> I'm saying neither should.




No, I think contracts should be honored.  I use and honor them every day in my business.  But in this case, both sides are guilty of the same thing.  

Perhaps I'm getting the wrong impression from Teflon Billy's posts.  it seems to me your villafying the owners for actions that the players have been using as status quo.  

Once either side breaks the boundries of the contract, it's open game.  Both sides have proven the "a contract is made to be broken" adage.  Quite frankly, by siding with the owners, I feel that I'm choosing the lesser of two evils.


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## Album Cover X (Sep 21, 2004)

drothgery said:
			
		

> and my Indians being the best offensive team in baseball from 1995-2001 for attendence levels to reach pre-strike levels.




[slighty off topic] and how many world series banners did they win???   

Before you ignite that flamethrower, I've lived outside Cleveland most of my life and earn the right to say such mean, horrible, true things... I attended games back in the old municipal stadium when nearly every night was Have-Your-Own-Beer-Vendor night... [/slighty off topic]

But drothgery does speak the truth... it took baseball years and few timely events to begin to undo the damage cause by the 94-95 strike. And baseball has such a deep history.

I'm a causal hockey fan at best... But I don't think they _get_ it... Hockey's problems to me extend much further than a salary cap issue... Hopefully a solution is reach and some games can be played. No matter the sport its ALWAYS better and more enjoyable to speak of on-field/ice events than those of the off-field variety.


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## Iuz (Sep 24, 2004)

Just wondering if anyone saw or read these interviews?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/national/news/nhl/bettman.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/national/news/nhl/goodenow.html


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## Tom Cashel (Sep 24, 2004)

Iuz said:
			
		

> While I will admit err on this point, I don't think it is as big a deal as you make it, and you certainly could have been more polite.




That's true, and I apologize to you Iuz. Temporary insanity as the lockout was announced.

I still think it's a big deal, though, especially with the anti-player sentiments running rampant...well...just about everywhere. There's no reason for erroneous thread titles that contribute to them.


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## Arnwyn (Sep 28, 2004)

I just love the lockout situation with the NHL.

_Love it._

I'm hoping for a complete league shutdown for a season or more, and hopefully the death of a few teams (notably those in the so-called "Sun Belt"). Then, if I'm lucky, a complete destruction of the current NHL as we know it.

Hopefully, that provides an opportunity for the league to return to cities that deserve NHL teams (eg. Winnipeg and Quebec City, among others).


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## Thornir Alekeg (Sep 28, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> I just love the lockout situation with the NHL.
> 
> _Love it._
> 
> ...




Well, I think some good can come of this, but I would not go so far as to say I love it.  As for returning teams to Canadian cities, of course I think teams belong there, but somehow you also need to put people's butts into the seats.  I seem to recall some pretty poor attendance at Nordiques games prior to their defection to Colorado.  Among my many relatives from Quebec(mostly Sherbrooke and Quebec City) I know few who were Nordiques fans (I can think of one uncle and a couple of great uncles)- most were Montreal fans.

And is it bad that I could not recall the Winnipeg team name until I Googled it?


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## Arnwyn (Sep 28, 2004)

Yes, it is bad. Very bad.

*shrug* You have to put butts in the seats everywhere. It's not happening in much of the U.S. right now.


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## devilbat (Sep 28, 2004)

> I just love the lockout situation with the NHL.
> 
> Love it.
> 
> ...





I agree with everything you said whole-heartedly, but don't forget Hartford.  I want to see the return of the Whale.  

The sad thing is the NHL will NEVER return to Winnipeg.  The city couldn't afford the NHL or it's ticket prices ten years ago, and they certainly won't be able to afford it in the future.  This lock out may save the Flames, Oilers and Senators, but it won't bring bacck the Jets or Nordique.



> And is it bad that I could not recall the Winnipeg team name until I Googled it?





Shame on you Thornir.  "Only some henglish pig would do dat".   

Relax folks, it's a Slapshot quote!   

"I feel shame"


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## The Sigil (Sep 29, 2004)

Dang, even I, a non-NHL fan, remembered it was the Winnipeg Jets.  And the Hartford Whalers.  And the Quebec Nordiques.

Not sure if I should be happy or sad about that. :/

--The Sigil


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