# Myriad of EOM issues, need clarification



## jberto (Oct 30, 2006)

I am really eager to add EOM to our D20 fantasy campaign, but I have a list of issues.  Please help provide clarification or suggest proven house rules.

*1. Charm Enhancements - Increase Threshold (1 MP).  * Is this enhancement not redundant, why not just pump more MP into the HD Threshold to begin with? 
Example from EOM: 
_"For each 1 MP you
spend on this enhancement, increase the HD Threshold
of the spell by 1. So if you cast a Charm Humanoid 7/Gen
1 spell (normally HD Threshold 14), and spend 7 MP
to increase the threshold, the total HD Threshold is 21
instead of 14."_
So this above spell would be Charm Humanoid 14/Gen1, which would have a HD threshold of 32, not 21?

*2. Create Death - Enduring Object.*  What do it mean by "create object is combined with some something unliving". It seems that this could be potential exploited by PCs.  Can someone provide an example spell.  Same issue with Create Life - Enduring Object.

*3. Complex Evoke spells. *  Is it possible to create a spell Evoke Fire 0/Evoke Lava 0/Evoke Light 0/Gen 1, this spell would do a total of 3d6 damage for a total MP of 1.  Whereas, Evoke Fire 0/Gen 1 does 1d6 damage for a total MP of 1.  Both of these spells cost 1 MP, but the first does more damage.  Is this right?

*4. Infuse - Enhance Skill incorrect example.* The example provided seems to have incorrect numbers. 
_"If the skill is
Strength-based, double the bonus. Thus, Infuse Water 3
could give a +8 bonus to Sense Motive checks, but Infuse
Earth 3 could give a +16 bonus to Jump checks."_
Where does the "+8" come from?  Table 3.24 states that a 3MP spell would provide a +12 bonus.  Shouldn't this example have a "+12" and then a "+24"?  Please clarify.

*5. Transforming Objects.*  Is it true that only a Transform Earth 0 can tranform a 5'x5' area of stone (similar to a weak Stone Shape).  This seems very underpowered, my fellow PCs would really exploit this to no end.  In addition, if one wanted to transform wood or a tree, would the spell be Transform Nature?

Thanks in advance to feedback.


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## sirwmholder (Oct 30, 2006)

jberto said:
			
		

> I am really eager to add EOM to our D20 fantasy campaign, but I have a list of issues.  Please help provide clarification or suggest proven house rules.




I'll take a stab at this...

*1. Charm Enhancements - Increase Threshold (1 MP).  * - Not sure what you are asking here...  I'll let someone else more experienced take this one.

*2. Create Death - Enduring Object.*  - This has not come up in our game but I suppose the idea is to create a missing limb say an arm... if it is attached to a person missing an arm it would become part of their body at the end of the spell's duration and not fade away. **Note: This is using the Create Life side since a limb created by death would eventually kill a living the recipient... shades of Evil Dead 2...

*3. Complex Evoke spells. *  I'm pretty sure you can not use cantrips with Complex Spells

*4. Infuse - Enhance Skill incorrect example.* Yes, Infuse Water 3 would give a +12 enhancement and likewise a +24 to Infuse Earth... wow, that seems a bit much .

*5. Transforming Objects.*  - All of the Transform spells seem a bit powerful but we have not encountered anything game breaking to date.

Hope this is accurate and has helped some 
Wm. Holder


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## RangerWickett (Oct 30, 2006)

*1. Charm Enhancements - Increase Threshold (1 MP).  * - Maybe I miswrote it (it's been a while, so my memory is a bit fuzzy), but my intention was that the MP you spend on that enhancement also counts toward the normal threshold. So if you have a Charm 2 effect, and then you add 5 MP for increasing the threshold, you'd take the threshold for Charm 7, and then add 5 to that.

*2. Create Death - Enduring Object.*  - By 'unliving' I meant 'not alive.' So if you wanted to make nails and hammer them into a wall so they'd stick and you could hang a picture, you'd need Create Death. If you didn't include that, the nails would eventually vanish and the picture would fall.

*3. Complex Evoke spells. *  Sirwmholder is correct. You can not use cantrips with complex spells.

*4. Infuse - Enhance Skill incorrect example.* At the time, I was still thinking of 3.0 Jump, which gave +30 to Jump at 1st level. I'd probably tone down all the bonuses by 1/3 (so +12 becomes +8), and get rid of the doubling for Str-based skills.

*5. Transforming Objects.*  - I don't recall the costs off hand. I think that yeah, a cantrip to stone shape that would be a bit much. But . . . I don't recall specifically, like I said, it's been a while, but my ideas of what's balanced have changed a bit these past two years. I think, though, that the stoneshaping would only last for the duration of the spell; it wouldn't be permanent as a cantrip, and by the rules of the spell you can't use it to deal damage by, like, creating a stone spike to stab someone.


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## jberto (Oct 31, 2006)

*Excellent feedback*

Thanks to everyone who provided excellent feedback!  

Although, there is one issue I still have: Transforming Objects.  It seems there is no way to permanently transform an object (except to add Duration, Permanent MP30).  I think it would be good to be able to permanently transform nonmagical objects (ex: Stone Shape, Shape Metal, Warp Wood, etc).  Maybe have a reduced cost Permanent Duration for Tranform Object?

What does the community think?


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## RangerWickett (Oct 31, 2006)

Actually, the trick I recall using in my playtests was to use Transform Ooze to change something's material into a viscous substance, then reshape that, and when the spell ends it reverts to its original material but keeps its new shape.

I'm working on a new Elements of Magic revision that simplifies some things, but doesn't use the Mythic Earth-style skill ranks. I don't honestly know when it'll be done, since getting the War of the Burning Sky campaign saga out in a timely fashion is our major focus. However, balancing transform and create are some of my main concerns for the new version.


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## sirwmholder (Nov 2, 2006)

*Eureka*



			
				jberto said:
			
		

> Thanks to everyone who provided excellent feedback!
> 
> Although, there is one issue I still have: Transforming Objects.  It seems there is no way to permanently transform an object (except to add Duration, Permanent MP30).  I think it would be good to be able to permanently transform nonmagical objects (ex: Stone Shape, Shape Metal, Warp Wood, etc).  Maybe have a reduced cost Permanent Duration for Tranform Object?
> 
> What does the community think?



This may seem a bit radical but I've been thinking on this and came up with an interesting solution.  Use the Craft Permanent Spell feat with the Craft Wondrous Item prerequisite.  That should just about cover it... and it would not take any more MP but would cost some experience... or you could hire the work out at 10 gp per XP spent.  Not very elegant but it should work instead of creating a special clauses to existing rules.

Thank you for your time,
Wm. Holder


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## Nyeshet (Nov 3, 2006)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Actually, the trick I recall using in my playtests was to use Transform Ooze to change something's material into a viscous substance, then reshape that, and when the spell ends it reverts to its original material but keeps its new shape.
> 
> I'm working on a new Elements of Magic revision that simplifies some things, but doesn't use the Mythic Earth-style skill ranks.



So you don't like the skill ranks? Personally, I like the idea of substituting caster level for skill ranks, such that the player may end up being a different caster level for different types of spells they attempt to cast. Granted, that is not how you set it up in ME, but its an idea I've been toying with. In any case, I look forward to the next installment of Elements of Magic. 



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I don't honestly know when it'll be done, since getting the War of the Burning Sky campaign saga out in a timely fashion is our major focus. However, balancing transform and create are some of my main concerns for the new version.



Don't rush. I - and I'm sure many others - am willing to wait an extra year for EoMv3 (or should that be EoM3e ) rather than have a rushed Burning Sky or EoM.


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