# Discussing Draedens



## hamishspence (Jun 23, 2006)

I get the impression they appeared before evrything became defined, out of "raw creative material" So, possibly even pre-Inner Planes

Besides Ulgurashek, what other candidates for draedens are there?
I would suggest the demiplane Neth "The Plane that Lives" from MOTP. It sounds very, very like one.

More tentatively, the Serpent of Serpents Coil in Baator, AKA Asmodeus ("Unless it is pure fancy, of course")

Because of the phrase "Or possibly he is a more fundemental entity whose existence pulls the multiverse into t's current configuration"

I'm not positive, but it is a reasonable surmise.


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## fnork de sporg (Jun 23, 2006)

What's a Draeden?


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 23, 2006)

fnork de sporg said:
			
		

> What's a Draeden?




They were introduced in the Immortals Set (gold box) by Frank Mentzer. They are very powerful beings that resemble a brain with tentacles protruding from both lobes (and mouths on the ends of the tentacles). They are miles long creatures (so, really, really big), and they warred with the Immortals (or gods, if you prefer) in ancient times. They seem to more or less be at a truce right now, although that's largely because the Immortals stay out of their way. There is supposition that they are related to dragons, who remained neutral in the war between the draeden and immortals.


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## paradox42 (Jun 23, 2006)

The Cogent, from Upper_Krust's Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary, is very likely based on the Draeden from the original Immortals box set. Its nickname, "World Flayer," calls the image of a Draeden to mind immediately if one has ever seen the original monster entry, and its description is fairly close to that of a Draeden (though Cogents are far smaller- only a couple hundred feet long or so). The IH version is a CR 88 entity from the "Far Place" which is essentially like the Far Realm in 3E Manual fo the Planes.

For my own game, I've actually decided as an exercise in pure game mathematics to stat up a Draeden closer to the original miles-long creature; I settled on a number of 4 feet of length per hit die, and 55,000 HD for the base creature (i.e. before advancement).  I sincerely doubt I'll ever actually use one, but it's amusing to make uber-monsters anyway.

To the OP, is your intent with this thread to generally discuss the beasts, or to try figuring out which entities in the D&D metaplot might be Draedens?

As an aside, I have no idea what this "Ulgurashek" is.

I can suggest with fair certainty that the Serpent in Nessus (which is supposedly Asmodeus's true form) is not a Draeden, because it closely resembles an enormous snake or dragon, and Draedens don't look remotely dragonlike. Sure, the Immortals monster description suggests that some mortals see them "as dragons," but that's an illusion. A Draeden falling onto ground would not leave a spiral track, nor would it sit nursing its wounds for countless millennia in all that material- Draedens hate anything but perfect vacuum, so a Draeden falling as Asmodeus did would eat everything around it until Hell was just gone.


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## Ripzerai (Jun 24, 2006)

Ymir, the primal frost giant.
Tiamat, as portrayed in Babylonian mythology. The current Tiamat would only be a fragment of that long-gone primal mother.
Apsu.
Typhoeus, adversary of Zeus.
Ilsensine, the illithid god.
The beholder Great Mother.
The aboleth Elder Evils.
Tharizdun.
Mak Thuum Ngatha.


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## Erik Mona (Jun 24, 2006)

I knew this one was going to trigger some threads.

Muhahahaha.

Only about 70 more to go.

--Erik


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## paradox42 (Jun 24, 2006)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Ymir, the primal frost giant.



Have to disagree here- Ymir was specifically assumed in the myths to have humanoid form. His skull, for example, formed the sky, and bits of brain still stuck to it formed clouds. Dreadens don't have heads, and their "brain" is made of nerve clusters scattered throughout their complete forms- no centralized brain mass in other words.



> Tiamat, as portrayed in Babylonian mythology. The current Tiamat would only be a fragment of that long-gone primal mother.
> Apsu.



Apsu, quite likely, could be a Draeden- I've never seen a physical description of him, and he is an elder entity that existed before the current universe. Tiamat, I'm more skeptical; she's too dragon-like. But saying the current one is a mere remnant of an original does make a Draeden-Tiamat more plausible; it would certainly explain the rumored connection between Draedens and dragons (which, personally, I never saw; the entities are just too wildly and radically different to be truly related).



> Typhoeus, adversary of Zeus.



Tough one- it's supposedly dragon-like in being a "serpent," but the many-heads thing does seem Draeden-esque- as does its ability to scare a deity.



> Ilsensine, the illithid god.



Almost certainly a Draeden- it fits all the criteria except, perhaps, eating all matter in general that it finds. Very nice catch!



> The beholder Great Mother.



Draedens have no eyes, so I'd think this one unlikely, though having myriad tentacles could be Draeden-esque. The Great Mother does fit other criteria of Draedenhood, being a strange entity (that's not quite a "god" as such) from beyond known reality, and being an unthinkably enormous creature that doesn't really notice anything smaller than itself except as food.



> The aboleth Elder Evils.



Ooo, good thought! Most of them aren't described, and their postulated traits (particularly in being "older than the current deities, perhaps older than the multiverse itself") are very Draedenlike.



> Tharizdun.



I'd have to disagree with this one, simply because the mythology behind Tharizdun specifically states he was a god who essentially went mad and turned against the rest. Draedens are a race of ridiculously powerful beings that have never been allied with the current gods (or Immortals), they just do their own thing and (under the truce) stay out of the deities' collective way.



> Mak Thuum Ngatha.



Eternally hungry entity (check). No eyes in described form (check). Lots of *mouths* in described form (check). Lots of tentacles in described form (check). Doesn't care at all about its worshippers, who seem to derive power from it more as a function of being in its wake than any effort on its part to reward them for service (check). Yup- besides Ilsensine, this is the most Draeden-esque entity in D&D canon right now. Nice thinking!


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## paradox42 (Jun 24, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I knew this one was going to trigger some threads.
> 
> Muhahahaha.
> 
> ...



Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Erik?  :\


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## Ripzerai (Jun 24, 2006)

paradox42 said:
			
		

> Have to disagree here- Ymir was specifically assumed in the myths to have humanoid form. His skull, for example, formed the sky, and bits of brain still stuck to it formed clouds. Dreadens don't have heads, and their "brain" is made of nerve clusters scattered throughout their complete forms- no centralized brain mass in other words.




Perhaps mythology only chronicles how the gods saw him - the most frightening thing for Odin and his brothers were frost giants, so they saw him as a frost giant.

As for his body parts, I assume some creative license was taken by the chroniclers, who never saw Ymir with their own eyes and had only their gods' words that he was a frost giant. So naturally, they assumed he had a skull and so on. We know the myths are inaccurate, I think, because if they were literally true his skull would have had to have been bigger than his body, his eyebrows capable of circumlocating his entire corpse. 

In "reality," the earth and sky and the wall around the earth was woven from his many tendrils, and the clouds from his filiment-like nerve clusters.



> Whatchoo talkin' 'bout Erik?




A draeden appears in _Fiendish Codex I_, which is how this thread got its start. Its name is Ulgurshek, and the Abyss formed around it while it was asleep. It hasn't managed to eat its way free, as its prison is not only matter but the substance of reality itself.


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## paradox42 (Jun 24, 2006)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Perhaps mythology only chronicles how the gods saw him - the most frightening thing for Odin and his brothers were frost giants, so they saw him as a frost giant.
> 
> As for his body parts, I assume some creative license was taken by the chroniclers, who never saw Ymir with their own eyes and had only their gods' words that he was a frost giant. So naturally, they assumed he had a skull and so on. We know the myths are inaccurate, I think, because if they were literally true his skull would have had to have been bigger than his body, his eyebrows capable of circumlocating his entire corpse.
> 
> In "reality," the earth and sky and the wall around the earth was woven from his many tendrils, and the clouds from his filiment-like nerve clusters.



Fair point.  Myths can be faked pretty easily by deities who want to hide things. Given that, Ymir could be an advanced Draeden, sure.



> A draeden appears in _Fiendish Codex I_, which is how this thread got its start. Its name is Ulgurshek, and the Abyss formed around it while it was asleep. It hasn't managed to eat its way free, as its prison is not only matter but the substance of reality itself.



Answering two of my questions at once- thanks! Damn, I was avoiding that book based on other choices made (particularly monster stats), but now my curiosity may force me to check it out. It's a cool storyline- just so long as they didn't do something lame like stat up the Draeden as, say, a mere CR 30 monster.


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## Ripzerai (Jun 24, 2006)

paradox42 said:
			
		

> just so long as they didn't do something lame like stat up the Draeden as, say, a mere CR 30 monster.




No, there aren't any stats for it. Just a description.


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## Shemeska (Jun 24, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I knew this one was going to trigger some threads.
> 
> Muhahahaha.
> 
> ...




*chuckle* The question though is if you're trying to ...

A) Create continuity between D&D and AD&D/3.x edition.

B) Insinuate Draedens are some sort of Far Realms creatures

C) Propose or at least allude to a cosmological model larger than the multiverse, perhaps with the Great Wheel being a bubble on an ocean of potential surrounded by an infinite number of other bubbles, each utterly alien to each other by comparison (Great Wheel, Far Realm, Macrocosm from the PSMCIII, the Ordial plane, whatever reality the Keepers came from, the insinuated pre-Great Wheel reality that the Baernaloths came from, etc etc).

If it's the latter, I've toyed with the notion in some stories, my storyhours, and in my campaign certainly, and so have some published things in 2e.

And as for 'about 70 more to go', I'm still digesting this pretty, pretty piece of work. The reference to the Gibberlings in Sigil going nuts and talking about an Abyssal Lord imprisoned in layer 73 of the Abyss, and then going on about a creature 'beyond the stars'... something from the Far Realm is trying to extend influence into the Wheel...


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## Ripzerai (Jun 24, 2006)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> The reference to the Gibberlings in Sigil going nuts and talking about an Abyssal Lord imprisoned in layer 73 of the Abyss, and then going on about a creature 'beyond the stars'... something from the Far Realm is trying to extend influence into the Wheel...




Yeah, an obvious Far Realm reference. Only thing is, the entity Areex is supposed to contact is Bolothamogg, whose job (according to _Lords of Madness_) is to prevent beings from this reality from entering the Far Realm - so it's strange that Bolothamogg would invite an Abyssal lord to do so. I suppose Bolothamogg intends to deputize Areex into acting on its behalf? The endlessly chanting gibberlings are a very powerful image, regardless.


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## BOZ (Jun 24, 2006)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> No, there aren't any stats for it. Just a description.




stats for a draeden would be insane.  i haven't even contemplated them, although i'm sure shade has.


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## Alzrius (Jun 24, 2006)

Shemeska said:
			
		

> C) Propose or at least allude to a cosmological model larger than the multiverse, perhaps with the Great Wheel being a bubble on an ocean of potential surrounded by an infinite number of other bubbles, each utterly alien to each other by comparison (Great Wheel, Far Realm, Macrocosm from the PSMCIII, the Ordial plane, whatever reality the Keepers came from, the insinuated pre-Great Wheel reality that the Baernaloths came from, etc etc).




To some degree, that's already there. We know you can travel between cosmologies via the Plane of Shadow and the _gate_ spell, so all of D&D reality is larger than a single multiverse can encompass.


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## paradox42 (Jun 24, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> stats for a draeden would be insane.  i haven't even contemplated them, although i'm sure shade has.



Well, the ones I've been coming up with certainly qualify. AC is over 13,000, hit points over 4.2 millon, attack bonus for its Bites near 25,000... I've only barely scratched the surface here. I haven't even begun to estimate its CR, but it has to be in the tens of thousands at a minimum.

Like I said above, pure mathematical exercise. 

But I checked out a copy of FC1 at a store, and found the reference to Ulgurshek, and have been contemplating exactly what it might be like to have an adventure inside a Draeden. Really, if nothing else, the diamond boulders in its gizzard might make for a good treasure motivator, but how to survive long enough to bring any out? Anyway, it's interesting food for thought. Nice easter egg there Erik, very nice.


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## James Jacobs (Jun 24, 2006)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Yeah, an obvious Far Realm reference. Only thing is, the entity Areex is supposed to contact is Bolothamogg, whose job (according to _Lords of Madness_) is to prevent beings from this reality from entering the Far Realm - so it's strange that Bolothamogg would invite an Abyssal lord to do so. I suppose Bolothamogg intends to deputize Areex into acting on its behalf? The endlessly chanting gibberlings are a very powerful image, regardless.




Of course, attributing human logic to something like Bolothamogg is the first step toward getting one's self into deep trouble. Put another way... the Elder Evils work in mysterious ways...


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## hamishspence (Jun 24, 2006)

*What about Neth?*

I assume the Draedens can vary a bit in looks. The one thing any surviving Draedens should have in common is size (layer, demiplane, and, if one wishes to squeeze Far Realm megaentities into that category, continent sizes)

I've only got 3rd/3.5 Ed material, so I probably don't have the full picture.


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## hamishspence (Jun 24, 2006)

*completist*

I tend to the idea that most old and new fluff can be pulled into a coherent whole. Hopefully, the current edition of D&D will lead that way: maybe clear up a few mysteries.


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## Nyaricus (Jun 25, 2006)

This thread is just whacked  I love it.


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## Shade (Jun 26, 2006)

When I saw the draeden mention in the book, I cracked one of those wide, dumb smiles that made me look like the Joker.


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## BOZ (Jun 26, 2006)

hamishspence said:
			
		

> I tend to the idea that most old and new fluff can be pulled into a coherent whole. Hopefully, the current edition of D&D will lead that way: maybe clear up a few mysteries.




i think FC1 really took a step in the right direction as far as that goes.    let's hope it can become an example of how to keep (many, if not most) fans of any edition happy.


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## Upper_Krust (Jun 26, 2006)

Hey all! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> The Cogent, from Upper_Krust's Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary, is very likely based on the Draeden from the original Immortals box set. Its nickname, "World Flayer," calls the image of a Draeden to mind immediately if one has ever seen the original monster entry, and its description is fairly close to that of a Draeden (though Cogents are far smaller- only a couple hundred feet long or so). The IH version is a CR 88 entity from the "Far Place" which is essentially like the Far Realm in 3E Manual fo the Planes.




The Cogent was certainly inspired by the Draeden (my all time favourite monster of OD&D*). I was a bit annoyed at WotC for not including it in the Epic Level Handbook. Although what started out as an homage went through a lot of changes (not least the size of it, which I'll comment on more below) with shape and its powers, primarily because the original had none, to be fair. So I added stuff like 'Birthquake' (where severed tentacles become a new monster called Akishra/Astral Worm), 'Divine Electricity' (its psynapses carry a heavy electrical charge), 'Mind Boggling' (where it can bend reality to use all its tentacles on one opponent) among many others. Its Damage Reduction is 50/epic and mindless (sentient beings and weapons are less effective against beings from the Dimension of Thought), and so on.

Also I proffered the idea that they were the disembodied brains of Elder Gods who had become trapped in the Far Place and were now under the thrall of that dimension.

*...and an advanced Draeden did bite the dust when my character led out the Norse Pantheon to fight it, although only 2 deities made it back in one piece. 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> For my own game, I've actually decided as an exercise in pure game mathematics to stat up a Draeden closer to the original miles-long creature; I settled on a number of 4 feet of length per hit die, and 55,000 HD for the base creature (i.e. before advancement).  I sincerely doubt I'll ever actually use one, but it's amusing to make uber-monsters anyway.




This was the problem I initially faced. However, I chose to reflect its power rather than size. The original was roughly in and around the power of Intermediate Deities/Greater Deities, so I sort of made it akin to a relatively weak Greater Deity.

I think if you were to give it 55,000 Hit Dice then you are probably looking at a bare minimum of CR 20,000. Which means you are only going to be able to use it against Ridiculous(TM)-level PCs. 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> To the OP, is your intent with this thread to generally discuss the beasts, or to try figuring out which entities in the D&D metaplot might be Draedens?
> 
> As an aside, I have no idea what this "Ulgurashek" is.
> 
> I can suggest with fair certainty that the Serpent in Nessus (which is supposedly Asmodeus's true form) is not a Draeden, because it closely resembles an enormous snake or dragon, and Draedens don't look remotely dragonlike. Sure, the Immortals monster description suggests that some mortals see them "as dragons," but that's an illusion. A Draeden falling onto ground would not leave a spiral track, nor would it sit nursing its wounds for countless millennia in all that material- Draedens hate anything but perfect vacuum, so a Draeden falling as Asmodeus did would eat everything around it until Hell was just gone.




Apsu from the Pantheons of the Megaverse book could be a Shadow-Draeden?


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## paradox42 (Jun 26, 2006)

Ah, I wondered how long this thread would hide from U_K. 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> This was the problem I initially faced. However, I chose to reflect its power rather than size. The original was roughly in and around the power of Intermediate Deities/Greater Deities, so I sort of made it akin to a relatively weak Greater Deity.



Fair choice. In my case, I had rules for expanded sizes before your Bestiary came out, and among the higher adjectives was "Cyclopean" which corresponds (after I made the changes to convert to your system) to between 25 and 49 miles in size. That's Macro-Titanic, to use the Bestiary definitions (note that the mileage I gave above doesn't precisely match yours, because I opted to refigure the table based feet and on powers of 2, and then round off to the nearest mile for each).

My reasoning was this: I was on a Cthulhu kick at the time I completed the first version of the table, and as a result I simply had to have a Cyclopean monster somewhere.  When I thought about beasts that could possibly match such an enormous size, I made the connection to the original Draeden, and started thinking. My version is actually about twice the size of the original, but given the general changes 3E made over OD&D, I didn't feel that was inappropriate- nor was its power level going up by many orders of magnitude.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think if you were to give it 55,000 Hit Dice then you are probably looking at a bare minimum of CR 20,000. Which means you are only going to be able to use it against Ridiculous(TM)-level PCs.



Of course- like I said, it's not something I really think I'll ever use, though it might be cool to stage a fight between one and en entire pantheon of deities and overgods someday. 

But I will note that this precise problem meant I left the statting project in limbo for a couple of years, and only recently picked it up again- my original main difficulties were figuring out its skills, feats, and CR. The IH Bestiary showed me the Omnicompetent ability (which neatly cuts out the skill problem); when Fieari statted up Lavos, I saw how the feat problem could be circumvented by using stackables like Armor Skin and Damage Reduction to just inflate abilities to ridiculous levels; and when Fieari called for help to estimate the CR for A'Tuin the Star Turtle, and I took up the challenge, I discovered that it actually is possible to arrive at reasonable values for uber-monsters.

So in the last month or two I started again, and this time am plowing forward. I haven't gone ahead with a CR estimate yet, because I'm currently thinking about what special abilities to give it exactly (besides its basic stats and spellcasting ability of course). It's an interesting conundrum, and one I likely will end up using the Dvine and Cosmic powers in IH Ascension for in the end.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Apsu from the Pantheons of the Megaverse book could be a Shadow-Draeden?



Well, the wikipedia entry on Apsu suggests that it might be more appropriate to call it a Water Draeden, but that's probably quibbling.  Certainly, a Draeden vaguely resembles a beast that evolved in water, so postulating that an ancient, never-described (except by being a creature made of water) entity is in fact a Draeden probably isn't far off the mark.


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## paradox42 (Jun 26, 2006)

hamishspence said:
			
		

> I assume the Draedens can vary a bit in looks.



Not by the original fluff (they all looked like the vast, tentacled beasts Cthulhudrew described above), but if you want to say for your own edification that one or more of them permanently changed shape to look like something else, then go ahead- nothing says your game has to follow the original fluff.

But in Neth's case, this may be irrelevant, since in fact the Immortals Rules description of a Draeden is of the being seen from the outside. Neth is never seen from the outside, since it's an entire plane in and of itself, so in theory it could look like anything if ever merged back into the multiverse proper. The description given of it being "a continent-sized membrane folded back on itself" is vague enough to cover virtually any form, and since our own bodies contain truly ridiculous lengths within (example, if you took all of an adult human's blood vessels and laid them out end to end, they'd circle the entire planet Earth more than once) it's not hard to imagine that Neth's giant membrane could shrink in apparent size down to only a few tens of miles if properly scrunched.

One interesting idea regarding Neth as a Draeden is that Neth knows nothing about itself; it's apparently young in cosmic terms, and trying to discover a place in the cosmos. It also is clearly not Chaotic (as Draedens in the Immortals Rules are postulated to be, which also matches the Abyss forming around Ulgurshek), and that must mean that if it is a Draeden it hasn't had any contact with others of its kind. Neth may actually be a baby Draeden, not yet fully formed; their life cycle has never been detailed in any product I'm aware of. Its demiplane may be a kind of egg for it, and when the egg hatches it will be shunted into the Astral Plane, or another reality entirely. That strikes me as a pretty cool hook. 



			
				hamishspence said:
			
		

> The one thing any surviving Draedens should have in common is size (layer, demiplane, and, if one wishes to squeeze Far Realm megaentities into that category, continent sizes)



Draedens in the original fluff are not said to be planes in and of themselves- they are creatures. That said, the mention of Ulgurshek as an Abyssal layer does point out that Draedens are in fact large enough to be planes by the Immortals Set definitions: no Draeden could fit into a plane from that set of Picoplane or smaller size, and in fact if one speculates on Draedens containing planes within themselves then a Draeden would typically be a Nanoplane. Re-engineering them for the modern edition of the game could make them much larger if that's desired, of course; certainly the largest dragon sizes have greatly inflated from OD&D.



			
				hamishspence said:
			
		

> I've only got 3rd/3.5 Ed material, so I probably don't have the full picture.



I would advise trying to find a copy of the original entry from the gold-box Immortals Rules set if you want to be completely accurate with regards to the original information on Draedens. Of course, as newer products have arrived on shelves over the years, they've contradicted and retconned older ones, so perhaps the information in the original gold box rules is incomplete or incorrect in some detail. It's ultimately a question of how much of the original material you want to retain in a merge with newer stuff.


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## Ripzerai (Jun 27, 2006)

_The Inner Planes_, page 72, describes "an ancient and venerable race" that "roamed the planes before any other species were born. Indeeed, a few even speculate that these creatures cause the multiverse itself to come into existence."

They're currently asleep in glaciers in the Paraelemental Plane of Ice. "...the Sleeping Ones apparently inspire a sort of brain-shattering awe, and the sight of their numbing graveyard is supposed to rip a weak-minded fool of his sensibilities - literally. Still, if these beings are as big as some claim (many, many miles long), it could be that plenty of travelers have seen them from a distance but mistook them for oddly shaped mountain peaks."

Anyway, they aren't named or described in detail, but they're meant to be Lovecraftian (cyclopean!) beings as old as the multiverse. They sound like draedens to me.


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## Erik Mona (Jun 27, 2006)

They sounded like draedens to me, too. i was thinking specifically of that reference when I wrote the bit about Ulgurshek being curious about the fates of others of his kind.

--Erik


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## paradox42 (Jun 27, 2006)

Interesting. I remember that reference well (that book was jam-packed with cool ideas), but never connected it to the Draedens before. I had always pictured the enormous shapes in the ice as being vaguely humanoid, but really, why? Their shapes are simply not described, and if the beings are actually Draedens, then most travellers finding them would see different things anyway.

So, if Neth is a baby Draeden, did these Sleepers make it somehow, or was it made by one or more Draedens that somehow stayed unfrozen?


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## Kafkonia (Jun 27, 2006)

paradox42 said:
			
		

> So, if Neth is a baby Draeden, did these Sleepers make it somehow, or was it made by one or more Draedens that somehow stayed unfrozen?




You may not be able to ascribe our concepts of procreation to something that alien. Look at some alternate methods of creation -- dust bunnies don't reproduce, each one accretes slowly, not unlike pearls or stalactites.


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## Shemeska (Jun 27, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> They sounded like draedens to me, too. i was thinking specifically of that reference when I wrote the bit about Ulgurshek being curious about the fates of others of his kind.
> 
> --Erik




*grinning* That entire book was thirty one flavors of awesome, the material about the 'sleeping ones' in Paraelemental Ice included.

Suggesting them to be remaining/imprisoned Draedens is really interesting (in a good way of course). In my own stuff I ended up using the 'sleeping ones' as the forgotten and imprisoned (or martyred) NG progenitor race, opposites of the Baernaloths, that created the Guardinals before themselves accepting a fate that their children would, in later eons, mimic in their use of Belarian (willing self-sacrifice and dilution of purity on behalf of others).


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2006)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> They sounded like draedens to me, too. i was thinking specifically of that reference when I wrote the bit about Ulgurshek being curious about the fates of others of his kind.




Planescape once again delivers the recipe for cool, and Erik meshes it into the classic material to make a tasty modern dish.


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## Ripzerai (Jun 27, 2006)

Module IM3: The Best of Intentions, by Ken Rolston, describes a demiplane called Draedenden, a void filled with barely detectable warmth. Five ten kilometer maggots hover in the vacuum, with skin wrinkled like a brain. The immortal Mazikeen believes them to be larval draedens, but isn't entirely sure. 

The same module describes Thoke, a plane that's been almost entirely destroyed by draedens, presumedly because its inhabitants posessed knowledge that somehow threatened them.


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## paradox42 (Jun 27, 2006)

Kafkonia said:
			
		

> You may not be able to ascribe our concepts of procreation to something that alien. Look at some alternate methods of creation -- dust bunnies don't reproduce, each one accretes slowly, not unlike pearls or stalactites.



I wasn't, really; I said "one or more" Draedens, which doesn't mean a male and female got together and made a Neth-egg.  I figure, actually, that it makes more sense for them to do something along the lines of budding (like polyps undersea in our world), or maybe one of the methods requiring three or more genders to create offspring. OTOH, Draedens may literally make their "offspring" by building them from raw materials, or even by simply setting a "seed" in place somewhere and letting it slowly accrete matter (as in your example) to eventually achieve life. The only requirement for Neth to be a child of the Draedens is that one or more Draedens took action (consciously or otherwise) to start the process of making it.

Of course, if you're suggesting that adult Draeden intervention is not necessary at all to make a baby Draeden, that means they can spontaneously arise out of the substrate of the multiverse itself, and are more accurately thought of as literal "children of the multiverse" or even some vital function of its existence. That, of course, raises interesting questions and thoughts of its own.



			
				Ripzerai said:
			
		

> Module IM3: The Best of Intentions, by Ken Rolston, describes a demiplane called Draedenden, a void filled with barely detectable warmth. Five ten kilometer maggots hover in the vacuum, with skin wrinkled like a brain. The immortal Mazikeen believes them to be larval draedens, but isn't entirely sure.
> 
> The same module describes Thoke, a plane that's been almost entirely destroyed by draedens, presumedly because its inhabitants posessed knowledge that somehow threatened them.



That's enough to sell me on the ESD.  Only $4.95 at RPGNow- can't really go wrong there!

And as a side note to that, RPGNow also has an ESD download of the gold-box Immortals Rules set, along with the other two Immortal-level adventures released for Basic D&D, in their ESD section. For those who are interested in checking these out and don't have original paper copies.


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2006)

paradox42 said:
			
		

> Of course, if you're suggesting that adult Draeden intervention is not necessary at all to make a baby Draeden, that means they can spontaneously arise out of the substrate of the multiverse itself, and are more accurately thought of as literal "children of the multiverse" or even some vital function of its existence. That, of course, raises interesting questions and thoughts of its own.




I thought draedens were made out of clay.    

(I know, I know..Bad Shade, no biscuit.)


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## Kafkonia (Jun 27, 2006)

paradox42 said:
			
		

> Of course, if you're suggesting that adult Draeden intervention is not necessary at all to make a baby Draeden, that means they can spontaneously arise out of the substrate of the multiverse itself, and are more accurately thought of as literal "children of the multiverse" or even some vital function of its existence. That, of course, raises interesting questions and thoughts of its own.




That's more of the line of thought I was following. That draedens develop out of existence directly, rather than from any sort of progenitor -- be it sexual coupling, seed planting, or factory manufacture. 

I like that idea because it makes them even further removed from our comprehension.


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## paradox42 (Jun 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I thought draedens were made out of clay.
> 
> (I know, I know..Bad Shade, no biscuit.)



If I were Jewish, I would have to slap you with a fish now.  But since I'm not, I leave that up to other ENWorlders.

But that brings up another point- how exactly do you pronounce "Draeden?" Is it "dray-den," rhyming with clay, or is it "dry-den" rhyming with fly? I've always pronounced it the second way, but I've never seen official word on how it's supposed to be pronounced. The word's like "drow," apparently...


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## Ripzerai (Jun 27, 2006)

It could be dree-den, for that matter.

I call them dray-dens, for what it's worth.


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## Kafkonia (Jun 28, 2006)

I say dray-den. If I said dry-den I'd have to visualize them playing hockey.


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## BOZ (Jun 28, 2006)

Ripzerai said:
			
		

> I call them dray-dens, for what it's worth.




same here.  draeden, draeden, draeden, i made you out of clay...


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2006)

I added a Wikipedia entry for our ancient friends.  Have at it!


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## Shemeska (Jul 19, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I added a Wikipedia entry for our ancient friends.  Have at it!




I just added the speculation about more Draedens in the paraelemental plane of ice


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## BOZ (Jul 19, 2006)

i knew someone must have.


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## kardar233 (Feb 21, 2007)

My friend and I had some crazy ideas about Draedens after finding out about Ulgurshek and the ones trapped in the Plane of Ice. 

Firstly, we thought that the "Ancient Ones" as we called them, the guys who created the draedens (and possibly the dragons), knew they couldn't build such big stuff as the Great Wheels themselves, and created the draedens to help. They formed a bunch of draedens into Great Wheels, and then the draedens got what they were doing and tried to kill the "Ancient Ones". 

Secondly, we thought that Ao (and the other Overgods of the Great Wheels) were the manifestations of the slowly reviving draedens who were made into the Great Wheels. 

As an aside, we should note that what we called the "Great Draeden" the real big guy who's in the Plane of Ice, is slowly getting weaker. 
As a result of this, we came to this conclusion: 

Thirdly, it's possible that the awakening draedens of the Great Wheels are actually draining the "Great Draeden" of his life. And, with a bit of speculation, it could have been Ulgurshek who was going to create the next Great Wheel along with the "Great Draeden". As a forward extrapolation from this, Ulgurshek might learn of how the "Great Draeden" is dying, so he resolves to free this guy(Not being too smart, he might think that the only way to revive him fully is to kill the guys who are draining him). So, he would bust the other guy outta the Plane of Ice, go for one of the Great Wheels, and get killed by Ma Yuan(with some help from Apep), recently revived by dropping his weapon into the Well of Darkness that holds him. Even in Ulgurshek's weakened state, pretty much the only guy who can match him is Ma Yuan. Then, the "Great Draeden", becoming fully awake, would kill Ma Yuan while he's fighting Apep, and destroy the rest of the Great Wheels. Then he himself would become the last Great Wheel, and then if that one gets destroyed by someone, *poof* goes most of existence (except the Abyss and Nine Hells, or what's left of them after Ulgurshek is gone).

*Slaps Shade with fish* HA!


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## Upper_Krust (Feb 27, 2012)

Hey Sorrowdusk! 



			
				Sorrowdusk said:
			
		

> Why bother statting it, just say Cthulhu appears and destroys 1d4 adventurers /round




Thats all well and good when the adventurers are low-level investigators but its a tad less satisfying when the heroes are actual demigods themselves.


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## freyar (Feb 28, 2012)

Odd this thread was raised just now: we're converting draedens to 3.5 in the Creature Catalog at the moment.  More precisely, we're converting a single tube-segment at a time, since the whole thing is really too big to fight all at once.


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## Alzrius (Feb 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Odd this thread was raised just now: we're converting draedens to 3.5 in the Creature Catalog at the moment.  More precisely, we're converting a single tube-segment at a time, since the whole thing is really too big to fight all at once.




A shame that the entire thing isn't being converted over - it's not unprecedented, though; this was how Gwydion the Shadow Fiend was converted in 2E's _The Shadow Rift_ (though, as I recall, he was given a single stat block, IIRC it made him CR 40, in one of the 3.0 Ravenloft Gazetteers).


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## Upper_Krust (Feb 29, 2012)

Howdy freyar! 



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Odd this thread was raised just now: we're converting draedens to 3.5 in the Creature Catalog at the moment.  More precisely, we're converting a single tube-segment at a time, since the whole thing is really too big to fight all at once.




Well I'd like to recommend the Akishra monster I created for my Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary, since that is effectively a severed tentacle from a Cogent (which is a monster inspired by the Draeden).

The Akishra illustration can be seen at the top of this page:

Immortality

The Cogent illustration is on this page, scroll down a bit:

Immortality


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## freyar (Feb 29, 2012)

Alzrius said:


> A shame that the entire thing isn't being converted over - it's not unprecedented, though; this was how Gwydion the Shadow Fiend was converted in 2E's _The Shadow Rift_ (though, as I recall, he was given a single stat block, IIRC it made him CR 40, in one of the 3.0 Ravenloft Gazetteers).




The CC did something similar by converting just the head of Jormungandr, the Midgard Serpent, back in 2005 (before I was on-board).



Upper_Krust said:


> Well I'd like to recommend the Akishra monster I created for my Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary, since that is effectively a severed tentacle from a Cogent (which is a monster inspired by the Draeden).




Neat!  We'll have to take a look.  The conceptual difference here I guess is that it won't be severed but that the organization will be such that the "cluster" of tube-segments will make up a full draeden.


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## Zelda Themelin (Mar 1, 2012)

It's interesting to read about old things of D&D. Honestly I never found them so interesting. As an idea certainly, but presentation had always felt bit, dunno, "my monster is bigger than yours". I own epic bestiary, but to be totally honest, monsters there are bit boring. Some good ideas, but kinda not something I use when I run epic games. Far too many angels for example. Far too much plague of high ac, forced reason why make parties out of 60th lv characters.  But book was using epic rules as they were made (bad IMO), so such is to be expected. I rather liked reading it though. I guess the book would have been more about something "elder evil" style monsters.

Draedens are sort of lovely despite what I just said. I play mostly using Scarred Lands and Golarion these days and they have enough things we have invented already that make a better fit.

I recall I made some Draeden-esque plot-line to my Greyhawk game. It included things like "Book of Chaos" from times before cosmic wheel existed like "today". And things older gods had lied to younger ones, and how they had really imprisoned Tharizdun. Ah the nostologia. My sis at times asks me to continue storyline, though she is only player of whose whereabouts I even know.

I didn't use them in my Mystara games before that, though. I had more storylines involing dark secrets of Glantri (loved that book), which I naturally expanded quite a lot. And immortal pc:s were mosty facing off agents of entropy and "living black hole".


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## Alzrius (Mar 1, 2012)

Zelda Themelin said:


> It's interesting to read about old things of D&D. Honestly I never found them so interesting. As an idea certainly, but presentation had always felt bit, dunno, "my monster is bigger than yours". I own epic bestiary, but to be totally honest, monsters there are bit boring. Some good ideas, but kinda not something I use when I run epic games. Far too many angels for example. Far too much plague of high ac, forced reason why make parties out of 60th lv characters.  But book was using epic rules as they were made (bad IMO), so such is to be expected. I rather liked reading it though. I guess the book would have been more about something "elder evil" style monsters.




Can you expand on some of what you mean here? I don't understand some of the points you raised, e.g. "my monster is bigger than yours," "high AC" and "forced reasons [to] make parties out of 60th level characters."

Does wanting the book to be more about "elder evil" style monsters mean that you wanted the monsters to be presented more as a situation than as a creature (a la WotC's _Elder Evils_ book, which as I recall didn't actually have stats for the full creatures themselves)?


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 2, 2012)

Always nice to hear some feedback Zelda Themelin! 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> It's interesting to read about old things of D&D. Honestly I never found them so interesting. As an idea certainly, but presentation had always felt bit, dunno, "my monster is bigger than yours".




I think epic will always have an element of one-upmanship. I believe the key to epic design is either to give the monsters a new power we haven't seen before or make the write-up intrinsic to the (epic) 'universe' and in so doing make the monster fill a 'position' we haven't seen before.



> I own epic bestiary, but to be totally honest, monsters there are bit boring.




Compared to which other similar source? 

I'm curious to hear your opinion, in case I ever wanted to release another epic bestiary. 



> Some good ideas, but kinda not something I use when I run epic games.




Which other sources do you use when you run epic games?



> Far too many angels for example.




Well admittedly, that book only covered A-G, hence the reason the other dimensional hierarchies weren't really covered. But the Angels were only 14 pages out of a 96 page book and I think I did an okay job showing how angels could be adversaries in campaigns.



> Far too much plague of high ac, forced reason why make parties out of 60th lv characters.




About 50% of the book covers CR 40 or less, but I reasoned that with the Epic Level Handbook monsters topping out at CR 57 (off the top of my head) that people would want to see some monsters that went up to CR 100 and beyond.



> But book was using epic rules as they were made (bad IMO), so such is to be expected.




The epic rules weren't great, that's true, although I think the main problems stemmed from the PCs rather than the monsters.



> I rather liked reading it though.




Thanks. 



> I guess the book would have been more about something "elder evil" style monsters.




I tried to paint a picture that the universe (or indeed super-universes) had lots of things within it that even the gods wouldn't know about and that many of the most powerful entities would be imprisoned, distant or dormant and that's why they are not currently controlling or laying waste to the planes.


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## Piratecat (Mar 2, 2012)

Upper_Krust said:


> Hey Sorrowdusk!




Heh. If you're 5 years later in responding, it may not be worth the effort.


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## Zelda Themelin (Mar 2, 2012)

Piratecat said:


> Heh. If you're 5 years later in responding, it may not be worth the effort.




Immortal Bestiary is fun book and I own it and I recently re-read it so never mind if it was available 5 years ago or something. Or something else?



But I really love epic stuff. 
I answer better later U-K but I am busy gaming now, so shortly I liked your style and some beasties were cool though I hoped few more would have been if you get another one out I get it too. I like your writing style. But gotto go. Later.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 2, 2012)

Hey Piratecat! 



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> Heh. If you're 5 years later in responding, it may not be worth the effort.




Actually I was responding to the comment in the Experience points Sorrowdusk gave me a few days ago. So the thread is 5 years old, but the experience points comment is only a few days old.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 2, 2012)

Hey Zelda Themelin! 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Immortal Bestiary is fun book and I own it and I recently re-read it so never mind if it was available 5 years ago or something. Or something else?




I think Piratecat is referring to my quote of Sorrowdusk which he believed was 5 years too late (but I was actually quoting an experience points comment made a few days ago by Sorrowdusk).



> I answer better later U-K but I am busy gaming now, so shortly I liked your style and some beasties were cool though I hoped few more would have been if you get another one out I get it too. I like your writing style. But gotto go. Later.




Have fun at the game. 

I'm always interested to hear feedback or take criticism on the chin so don't hold back and give it to me straight. I'm pretty thick-skinned so no need to worry about hurting my feelings.


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## S'mon (Mar 2, 2012)

Upper_Krust said:


> Howdy freyar!
> 
> 
> Well I'd like to recommend the Akishra monster I created for my Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary, since that is effectively a severed tentacle from a Cogent (which is a monster inspired by the Draeden).
> ...




Hi Craig, thou great Necromancer! 

As I am too lazy to dig out my Immortals Handbook right now, remind me - is the Cogent your version of my Intruder, which was inspired by a brief glimpse at the pic of the Draeden in Alan Shiels' BECMI Immortals book during BRA school assembly?  Or did you stat the Intruder separately?  AIR the world-eating Intruder which tried to eat Oerth was a single eye surrounded by miles-long energy tentacles, so a bit different from both.


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## Upper_Krust (Mar 3, 2012)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Hi Craig, thou great Necromancer!




Hey Simon, probably going to book that London trip within the next week or two just to let you know. 



> As I am too lazy to dig out my Immortals Handbook right now, remind me - is the Cogent your version of my Intruder, which was inspired by a brief glimpse at the pic of the Draeden in Alan Shiels' BECMI Immortals book during BRA school assembly?  Or did you stat the Intruder separately?  AIR the world-eating Intruder which tried to eat Oerth was a single eye surrounded by miles-long energy tentacles, so a bit different from both.




When I designed the Cogent I already had Wrath of the Immortals and thus was familiar with the Draeden. So unfortunately the Cogent isn't really inspired by the Intruder creature beyond that 'said monster' was also inspired by the Draeden.

Also your Intruder creature was about Overgod level in power, whereas classically the Draeden were akin to a weak Greater God (or Hierarch Immortal if you prefer).

The Cogent was designed to be roughly on a par with a weak Greater God. Its much smaller than the Draeden though (100' ft. diameter brain with 200' ft. tentacles).

The size rules for 3E were pretty fussy and something the size of the original Draeden in 3E would have required 8000 Hit Dice (or thereabouts). This of course has a knock on effect to all its other attributes and the whole thing gets a bit messy.

However, if I was redesigning it for 4E then you could have no problems with monsters that big. Level 36 (Giga-sized) Super-solo should be sufficient.


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