# Can we have the sorcerer fixed now? (Plz, I beg you n_n°)



## MoonSong (Aug 26, 2022)

One D&D is the chance to finally have sorcerer fixed. Of course issues with all classes are important, though sorcerer in particular stings more since there was basically no public playtest of it the last time around. To summarize the known issues with sorcerer:


*Too few spells known.* The smallest amount out of all full casters. This makes the class harder to play than it should be, and limits the ability to cover a theme because there are just not enough spells.
*Limited class spells.* A lot of the sorcerer class spells focus on combat and there aren't enough non-combat utility effects. Also there are basically no exclusive/sorcerer only spells. And most egregious, Dragon sorcerer can't turn into a dragon despite the spell existing in the game!
*Too much pressure on sorcery points.* Sorcerer features rely too much on sorcery points. There are too many uses for sorcery points and not enough of them to cast even a full day's assortment of spells and use metamagic, let alone use the other class features.
*Limited Metamagic.* Metamagic takes too long to come online and once you have it you have too few metamagic options for most of your career. Some options are nearly must-haves and some are too expensive for what they do. Some options aren't in the core book (like damage change)
*Issues with subclasses.* Almost all older subclasses have issues. Wild magic is too reliant on DM cooperation, Dragon magic works fine, as long as you choose a fire dragon... most older subclasses could benefit from bonus spells, and there are only two in core.
*No familiars.*

Some minor nitpicks that are more personal:

Lack of simple weapon proficiency. Spears are an iconic sorcerer weapon, at least let us have proficiency with them. More of a ribbon since most everybody will just blast, but come on! 5e took them away for no reason!
Needing an arcane focus or material components. It would be nice, real nice if sorcerers could cast without needing to rely on external items. Bring Eschew Materials back!
Some more nice to have stuff. Like I don't know letting sorcerers have an always-on weaker version of detect magic.

What else did I miss? People who think sorcerers need fixing Assemble!

@FrogReaver @Aldarc @Chaosmancer, @_*Tony Vargas*_, @_*Hawk Diesel*_,  @_*RangerWickett*_, @_*dco*_ @_*Gwarok*_, @_*LapBandit*_ @_*Sword of Spirit*_, @_*Gradine*_, @_*gyor*_, @_*Xeviat*_, @_*Yunru*_, @_*Jago*_, @_*flametitan*_, @_*Ketser*_, @_*cbwjm*_, @_*Immoralkickass*_  @_*ScuroNotte*_ , @_*Irda Ranger*_ @*dropbear8mybaby, @Tales and Chronicles, @Ashrym @oreofox *


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## Hawk Diesel (Aug 26, 2022)

I have been summoned!

But seriously, I think themed spell lists can go a long way. I also like the Tasha's option to be able to switch out one known spell for a different one once per long rest, allowing you to really tune in your spell selection without feeling penalized for taking a spell that doesn't quite work in the way you'd like.

I also agree that sorcery points are... less than ideal. Compared to a Wizard, it has the exact same spell slot creation power as a wizard's arcane recovery. Sure, it's more flexible in that you can create the spell slots as needed whereas the Wizard has to wait for a long rest, but it ALSO fuels metamagic on top of that. But I don't know how to really fix that.

One thing I think could be interesting regarding metamagic would be to have a certain number of metamagic slots, and you prepare which metamagic you have access to for the day. That give the sorcerer some more flexibility, and as you level you can get more slots to have more metamagic options available.


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## Leatherhead (Aug 26, 2022)

Sorcerers post tasha's are wildly different beasts than they were back in 2014, and I fully expect every sorcerer subclass to be reworked to match them. When combined with the new origin feats, I managed to make a level 5 sorcerer that had double the spells of a traditional human draconic sorcerer.


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## Benjamin Olson (Aug 26, 2022)

I'm hoping they just step away from "1 per level" resources. It is the original design sin of both Sorcerer and Monk in 5e. Maybe their current obsession with the proficiency bonus will provide a solution.

I would like to see a general backing down from limited spells known as _such_ a limit on power. I think in the case of Sorcerers they not only went overboard on limiting from a mechanical power perspective, but also from a lore perspective. The whole theme of a 5e Sorcerer is that they are just naturally (or rather supernaturally) gifted with magic. They have designed the class with the expectation that you are swapping out spells at level up. People do not swap out their innate talents for other innate talents. The design has missed the whole lore of the class.

I think the other issue is that most of the metamagic options do not really evoke the "weird magical gifts letting the sorcerer shape magic in unique ways" vibe that I think was the theory behind making Sorcerers the exclusive metamagic caster. Twining or Quickening spells are really powerful abilities, but they aren't really fundamentally changing the spells or doing anything particularly thematic. It wasn't until Tasha's brought in metamagic to turn your fireball into an iceball that I really felt like I was really reshaping how a spell worked.


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## Frozen_Heart (Aug 26, 2022)

Still wish we had ended up with the DnD Next playtest sorcerer instead of what we got. But from asking around, that's an unpopular opinion.

Still think that could have been its own entirely unique class. In 5e those mechanics are still untouched.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Aug 26, 2022)

1) More slots! Screw the ''sorcery points to recover slots''. Just give them more slots, and if the player wants, they'll convert those bonus slots to SP to use more innate features and Metamagic.

2) I'd put the Reckless Casting feature (+controlled chaos) from the UA Invention Wizard as part of the main class chassis. Ideally, each subclass has its own table of reckless casting, but that could be space consuming.
2.1) Or, give them access to 2 spell list from Arcane, Divine, Primal or X.

3) Simple weapons proficiency.

4) At higher level, give them Magic Resistance. They are magic incarnate! And if they save against a spell, they recover some HP or regain some SP.

5) More Innate features costing SP (since now their extra spell slots dont come from not using your other features)

6) No spell component unless they are consumed. Give them a visual tell if need be, but checks to counterspell or identify a sorcerer's spellcasting are made at disadvantage.


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## James Gasik (Aug 26, 2022)

The fact that a Wizard is more versatile than the guy whose whole deal is he doesn't have to prepare spells is the main thing that needs to be addressed, IMO.  Sorcery points being such a limited resource is a pain, but my main beef is when subclass features require their use- Sorcerers have enough uses for points as it is.

Wild Magic needs to be reworked.  Tides of Chaos needs to refresh on something better than "when the DM feels like it".  The chances for a Wild Surge, since it's your whole subclass feature need to be better than 5% of the time when you burn a spell slot.

Especially since there's only about a 1/3 chance you might get something good out of it.  I'd also like to add Nahal's Reckless Dweomer into the game at some point, perhaps as a bonus floating spell slot (akin to Pact Magic) that always triggers a Wild Surge.


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## Stalker0 (Aug 26, 2022)

Leatherhead said:


> Sorcerers post tasha's are wildly different beasts than they were back in 2014, and I fully expect every sorcerer subclass to be reworked to match them. When combined with the new origin feats, I managed to make a level 5 sorcerer that had double the spells of a traditional human draconic sorcerer.



I will agree here. While I personally would like to see sorceror's "pushed" more, I think their main "break" is in the original subclass design. Retool the subclasses to all include solid themed spell lists and good abilities, and your 80% of the way there. And one more key thing for flavor, some form of eschew materials to remove non-gp spell components. I'm sorry but its ludicrous that our natural spellcaster has to go find bat guano to fuel their powers, absolutely not.

Now I do think some utility spells should be added to the sorc's list, while there are a few I can respect as it might have some wonky power spikes with metamagic, a lot of the spell denials just feel downright arbitrary. When in doubt, the sorc should have every spell a wizard has, and then only remove a very small selection based on metamagic stacking concerns.


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## TwoSix (Aug 26, 2022)

Frozen_Heart said:


> Still wish we had ended up with the DnD Next playtest sorcerer instead of what we got. But from asking around, that's an unpopular opinion.
> 
> Still think that could have been its own entirely unique class. In 5e those mechanics are still untouched.



I've seen a lot of love for the playtest sorcerer on threads around here (myself included).  Gaining features as your resources deplete is a fascinating idea and could definitely be explored further.


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## Vael (Aug 26, 2022)

I don't mind a power up for the Sorcerer, just 2 things:

1. I do like the current incarnation, most rebuilds I see are far too radical for me.
2. TBH, I think where they need to go is more Metamagic options and fuel for using Metamagic, not spells. That'll make them feel more unique.


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## Frozen_Heart (Aug 26, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> I've seen a lot of love for the playtest sorcerer on threads around here (myself included).  Gaining features as your resources deplete is a fascinating idea and could definitely be explored further.



The whole 'becoming a monster' theme is pretty unexplored too. I guess beast barbarian covered one aspect of it.

Weirdly playtest sorcerer kind of shares that theme with blood hunter.


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## Remathilis (Aug 26, 2022)

I think the biggest changes* the sorcerer needs are

1.) Bonus spells ala Tasha's
2.) More sorcery points, or more ways to recover them other than long rest
3.) Metamagic gained more rapidly

* Assuming we are forced to work within the current general structure of the class for compatibility issues.


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## Minigiant (Aug 26, 2022)

Sorcerer need some exclusive spells. D&D needs to man up, go back to 4e, and convert some Sorcerer powers into spells.

And if the Sorcerer is THE innate caster, it's time for..

Magic Eye Lasers
Magic Hand Blasts
Magic Mouth Beam

The Sorcerer should be the only caster that can literally _vomit and sneeze_ magic aggressively at you.

*UNLIMITED POOOOWAAAAH!*


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## MechaTarrasque (Aug 27, 2022)

I like added subclass spell lists and to make sorcery points only good for fueling subclass features.  

In 4e they tried to break the "sorcerer vs. wizard" thing by giving sorcerers a different role than wizards, and in the 5e playtest, they tried to make them into more gishy casters than wizards.  I suspect WotC will continue to try to break "sorcerers vs. wizards" by make sorcerers default primal casters (and they can grab other spells via the subclass spells).  

Giving sorcerers some kind of gimmicky casting, because back in 3x, they had gimmicky casting has run its course.  Due to backwards compatibility, they will probably still have metamagic, but I suspect it won't be any better than before (and probably worse), so you can focus on better subclass abilities.  The only sorcerer "gimmick" in 5e that anyone in WotC seemed to like was the wild magic table, and while it would be cool if there was available in a more controllable way (say roll on the table when you use your top two highest-level spells), I think there would be too much wailing and gnashing of teeth for that to fly.  The only other thing that would get support without alienating everyone else would be for sorcerers to be constitution casters (I mean, what sorcerer is known for being great at deception?) which would make them extra good at concentration spells.  That being said, I do like the "reckless caster" idea mentioned above.


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## Horwath (Aug 27, 2022)

1. Bonus spells are addressed in Tasha's pretty much OK. fixes the problems. Might add 2 cantrips per subclass
2. Sorcery points. Increase by CHA mod, recharge prof bonus sorcery points per short rest.
3. Make spell points variant default for sorcerer and just add Sorcery points pool to spellpoint pool.
4. More metamagic options.
5. simple weapons(for wizards also)
6. maybe light armor


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## Azzy (Aug 27, 2022)

Needs more spells known at higher levels.


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 27, 2022)

The shared Arcane spell list might address a few issues for the sorcerer, namely lack of utility spells and spell variety. Seriously, Twinned Spell is great, but there aren't a whole lot of single target spells for the sorcerer to choose from. I'm tired of spamming Chromatic Orb with Twinned Spell.

If classes also have some spells specific to them still, then add more single target spells for the Sorcerer!

Bonus spells per sub-class would help alot with low number of Spells Known. Since they did it for two sub-classes in Tasha's, I kinda expect this to be the new norm in 1D&D. They had them even earlier for the UA Storm Sorcerer, but dropped them in the final Xanathar's version.

If regaining resources on a Short Rest is still a thing, add Sorcery Points to that list of resources.

Optionally, give Sorcerers a class feature to use an Inspiration point as a Sorcery Point...


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## payn (Aug 27, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> *Too few spells known.* The smallest amount out of all full casters. This makes the class harder to play than it should be, and limits the ability to cover a theme because there are just not enough spells.



I played a Sorc from level 1-17 and never felt like this was an issue. 


MoonSong said:


> *Limited class spells.* A lot of the sorcerer class spells focus on combat and there aren't enough non-combat utility effects. Also there are basically no exclusive/sorcerer only spells. And most egregious, Dragon sorcerer can't turn into a dragon despite the spell existing in the game!



This seems to be the classic trade off for Sorc. No spell book prep, but a limited list. I felt like cantrips actually took the pressure off here. 


MoonSong said:


> *Too much pressure on sorcery points.* Sorcerer features rely too much on sorcery points. There are too many uses for sorcery points and not enough of them to cast even a full day's assortment of spells and use metamagic, let alone use the other class features.



I love this feature and felt like it was enough. 


MoonSong said:


> *Limited Metamagic.* Metamagic takes too long to come online and once you have it you have too few metamagic options for most of your career. Some options are nearly must-haves and some are too expensive for what they do. Some options aren't in the core book (like damage change)



This I agree with. 


MoonSong said:


> *Issues with subclasses.* Almost all older subclasses have issues. Wild magic is too reliant on DM cooperation, Dragon magic works fine, as long as you choose a fire dragon... most older subclasses could benefit from bonus spells, and there are only two in core.



I do feel like there is room for improvement here. 


MoonSong said:


> *No familiars.*



Yeap, this needs to change.

Some of this seems to be a lack of theme and/or variety. I do like having to make hard choices as a sorc and felt that was nailed down. I am hoping to hear some ideas folks have on how to expand there.


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## Blue Orange (Aug 27, 2022)

I suspect as they keep adding spellcasting classes, they're going to get harder and harder to balance, and someone always gets the short end of the _staff of the magi_.

It was bad enough when you had clerics, who could heal, and magic-users, who couldn't but had better offense and utility spells.

Now you have clerics, druids, sorcerers, warlocks, and wizards, not to mention the partial casters like bards, paladins, and rangers.


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## MoonSong (Aug 27, 2022)

payn said:


> I played a Sorc from level 1-17 and never felt like this was an issue.



I must admit it isn't universal. Some subclasses get more spells known, and some builds are very focused and don't suffer too much.  


payn said:


> This seems to be the classic trade off for Sorc. No spell book prep, but a limited list. I felt like cantrips actually took the pressure off here.



In 5e, spell prep isn't a hindrance, but a bonus. So sorcerers are trading more spells known for the privilege of not having a bonus. So they end up losing both ways? And well, what I meant by class spells was spells in the class spell list. Diversity of effects, sorcerers lack access to summoning, dimensional, and longterm effects. Even utility QoL spells.


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 27, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> In 5e, spell prep isn't a hindrance, but a bonus. So sorcerers are trading more spells known for the privilege of not having a bonus. So they end up losing both ways? And well, what I meant by class spells was spells in the class spell list. Diversity of effects, sorcerers lack access to summoning, dimensional, and longterm effects. Even utility QoL spells.



Yeah, I'm currently playing a Shadow Sorcerer, and there are so few thematically appropriate spells. When Tasha's new summon spells came out, thankfully my DM let me take the Summon ShadowSpawn spell for my character, though it wasn't added to the Sorcerer list.

Again, I wonder how many spells will be on the Arcane list, and how many will be class-specific. A large core list will help with spell diversity quite a bit, and I think it probably will be.


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## FrogReaver (Aug 28, 2022)

Sorcerers don't exist in a vacuum.  There's also Wizards.

So first let's see if a sorcerer that had the Wizard Spell list and could know just as many spells as a wizard can prepare in a day - would that be too strong?  I think not, wizards still would have arcane recovery and ritual casting along with some strong high level features.  Meta magic is very strong though.  So while simple, the problem with this solution is it leaves even less differentiation between the sorcerer and the wizard.

The first thing I would do for differentiation is to give sorcerers some new sorcerer exclusive spells - these would also all have unique effects you could gain by using sorcerery points while casting them.  I would design these spells with the various subclasses in mind and add 1-2 of these spells per spell level to the subclass always known list.  

I would do away with metamagic costing sorcery points and instead a sorcerers metamagics would be a list of always on effects.  Twin spell and quicken would go away but most of the others could remain and potentially a few additional ones could be added.  (You are already limited by spell slots for how many of these effects you can apply).

I think something like this could get people excited about sorcerers while not making them too strong and also further differentiating them from wizards.


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## Minigiant (Aug 28, 2022)

Maybe the Sorcerer should be Arcane by default

Maybe the Sorcerer should use the Elemental spells list and their origin could add Arcane, Divine, Primal, Shadow or Psioinc List.

*Aberrant Mind*     Elemental + Psioinc
*Clockwork Soul *    Elemental +Clockwork Spells
*Cosmic Sign*    Elemental + Arcane
*Draconic Bloodline*     Elemental + Arcane
*Divine Soul *    Elemental + Divine
*Lunar Magic*    Elemental + Arcane + Divine
*Noble Bloodline*    Elemental + Arcane
*Shadow Magic*     Elemental + Shadow
*Storm Sorcery*     Elemental + Primal
*Wild Magic*    Elemental + Arcane


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## Branduil (Aug 29, 2022)

Most of the problems with the Sorceror have to do with the Wizard constantly stealing their stuff. If we examine their thematic concepts, the Wizard should be the Arcane specialist, gaining tremendous power in his niche while being limited in other areas. The Sorceror should be the one whose power lies in the breadth of his magic, up to being able to change the nature of spells themselves with metamagic. So really, it should be the Sorceror who has more "spells known" than the Wizard, because the Sorcerer knows magic _innately_, but they should cast less often than the Wizard.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Aug 29, 2022)

Branduil said:


> Most of the problems with the Sorceror have to do with the Wizard constantly stealing their stuff. If we examine their thematic concepts, the Wizard should be the Arcane specialist, gaining tremendous power in his niche while being limited in other areas. The Sorceror should be the one whose power lies in the breadth of his magic, up to being able to change the nature of spells themselves with metamagic. So really, it should be the Sorceror who has more "spells known" than the Wizard, because the Sorcerer knows magic _innately_, but they should cast less often than the Wizard.



I personally think that Wizard should be able to prepare all the spell of their school (no matter which ''spell list'' they are from) and only a few from the other schools. And add metamagic without Font of Sorcery (that always felt more science-y) and their special ritual feature + Tasha's Magical Guidance.

Sorcerer should just be able to to pick from any list, any school. They are magic incarnate, they dont have to bow to the generic classification of spells. They should be the ones with arcane recovery and at-will leveled spells at high level. Throw in some of the features that were cut from Tasha's, but fueled by slots (same with the archetypes' feature requiring Sorcery Points):

Empowering Reserves
When you make an ability check on your turn, you can spend 2 sorcery points to gain advantage on the check.

Imbuing Touch
As an action, you can touch one nonmagical weapon and spend 2 sorcery points to imbue it with magic for 1 minute. For the duration, the weapon is considered magical for the purpose of overcoming immunity and resistance to nonmagical attacks.

Sorcerous Fortitude
As an action, you can spend any number of sorcery points to roll a d4 for each point expended. You gain a number of temporary hit points equal to the total rolled.

Having features fueled by slots would be a nice way to compensate the lack of sorcerer-restricted spells.


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## Vael (Aug 29, 2022)

Branduil said:


> Most of the problems with the Sorceror have to do with the Wizard constantly stealing their stuff. If we examine their thematic concepts, the Wizard should be the Arcane specialist, gaining tremendous power in his niche while being limited in other areas. The Sorceror should be the one whose power lies in the breadth of his magic, up to being able to change the nature of spells themselves with metamagic. So really, it should be the Sorceror who has more "spells known" than the Wizard, because the Sorcerer knows magic _innately_, but they should cast less often than the Wizard.



Huh. I do go the other way, because Wizards can learn spells from spell books, the network of wizards allows them access to more spells. So it does make sense to me that Wizards has more spells. But Sorcerers innately know their spells, so being able to riff on them and modify them on the fly (ie, use metamagic), makes sense to me. Wizards are mathematicians, Sorcerers are artists.

This is why I don't want a radically new Sorcerer, I think they got pretty close with the 5e version. Really, give them a few more resources: spells and metamagic, rebalance the metamagic ('cause the difference between them is stark) and I'll be happy. I've played a few Sorcerers, they aren't bad, just ... tight.


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## Eric V (Aug 29, 2022)

I'd like to see something really different for sorcerers to make them stand out.  Imagine if sorcery points were rolled into spell points, but then gave sorcerers way more options on how to use the points, to really give them that "font of magic" or "raw, untamed power" or "member of the X-Men" kind of feel.

For example, they could spend points to heal themselves.  To recharge items.  Conversely, they could drain charges from items to get more spell points!  They could use them to enhance their bodies (gain greater move speed, thp, breathe water, sprout wings, gain temporary resistance, whatever).  You could let them cast any spell, but it costs double, or something, if it's not one of their practiced spells.  Give them a special attack that, when it hits, does no hp damage, but steals a spell or spells from the target and grants the sorcerer spell points.  Etc.

I am just spitballing, coming up with these on the fly, but it's just to point out that there's a LOT of design space for the sorcerer beyond what we have.


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## DeviousQuail (Aug 29, 2022)

Metamagic points should be scrapped entirely. Instead, tie those effects to upcasting spells. Upcast by one level and add a lesser metamagic feature for free. Upcast by two levels and you get one of the more powerful effects for free. You remove something that requires tracking and there is an inherent limit to how often you can do it.

Tasha's kinda nailed it with the sorcerer additional spells. I would be shocked if that doesn't get added in 1D&D.

Getting rid of material components, at least those without a GP cost, is something I didn't know I wanted until I read this thread.


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## Marandahir (Sep 1, 2022)

Make Sorcerers cast with Sorcery Points (using the DMG Spell Points list variant rule, and add their Sorcery Point pool to the total amount).

Let Sorcerers use either Int or Cha - allowing for Psions and Wilders to be built with them, easily.

They can still use their Sorcery+Spell points on either Metamagic or Spells, but no need for Adam Smith Hates Your Guts exchange rates between the two.


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## This Effin’ GM (Sep 1, 2022)

Spitballing Three fixes to the sorcerer.

1. Fix magic in general by creating different magic traditions and balancing them. Arcane. Primal. Divine. Somethingoccultbutnotnamedoccult.

2. Sorcerer gets access to tradition based on bloodline rather than just straight arcane. Each archetype has a curated auto added to list known, which may or may not be spells in the tradition they choose from.

3. Make a fiend sorcerer archetype. It’s the most obvious subtype that doesn’t exist, considering tieflings. Just do it. 

4. I said 3 but one more thing: keep its identity intact by making archetypes that fit the idea of the “born with this”. Like mutants. Sorcerers are basically mutants. Weird that in level up it’s with the warlock (bargain for your power) rather than the sorcerer.

Alternative fix.

No tradition for sorcerer at all but instead look at how the Mystic from UA divided spells into different categories and give the sorcerer that kind of magic. This makes a ton of thematic sense, they would feel different from wizard entirely. 

Alternative fix.

Throw them out. Make a sorcerer subtype for the wizard. Give them the metamagic as their class ability, with the type of metamagic they have access to based on bloodline. Allow them to use charisma instead of intelligence if they wish. Allow them to ignore the need for the book.


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## MoonSong (Sep 1, 2022)

This Effin’ GM said:


> Alternative fix.
> 
> Throw them out. Make a sorcerer subtype for the wizard. Give them the metamagic as their class ability, with the type of metamagic they have access to based on bloodline. Allow them to use charisma instead of intelligence if they wish. Allow them to ignore the need for the book.



This is not acceptable. Any solution to the sorcerer problems that involves killing them and giving wixards their toys isn't a solution at all. Besides, it isn't just the spellbook that makes wizards a poor replacement for sorcerers, it is basically EVERYTHING that isn't just casting spells that gets in the way.


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## This Effin’ GM (Sep 1, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> This is not acceptable. Any solution to the sorcerer problems that involves killing them and giving wixards their toys isn't a solution at all.



Sorcerer is my favorite class conceptually. I agree this would not be a solution I would prefer. But better than constantly mishandlin’ it.


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## SkidAce (Sep 1, 2022)

I also like sorcerers.

We enforce a theme (fire, charm, whatever) and give extra spells known per level for free from the theme.

Had a sorcerer we called an Adept that was functionally a mystic prophet healer.


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## Haplo781 (Sep 1, 2022)

Move metamagic back to feats and bring back the Next sorcerer.


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## Haplo781 (Sep 1, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Sorcerer need some exclusive spells. D&D needs to man up, go back to 4e, and convert some Sorcerer powers into spells.
> 
> And if the Sorcerer is THE innate caster, it's time for..
> 
> ...



Ah yes the holy trinity of Cyclops punch beams, Star Wars force lightning, and shoop da whoop.


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## MoonSong (Sep 1, 2022)

This Effin’ GM said:


> Sorcerer is my favorite class conceptually. I agree this would not be a solution I would prefer. But better than constantly mishandlin’ it.



As I expressed in a thread a couple of years back, it is impossible to merge sorcerer and wizard without losing either. Merging sorcerer "back"* into wizard would mean   effectively killing the concept. A combined class -or worse turning sorcerer into just a subclass- would be 99% pure wizard  (or so be broad that wizard would be limited to a very specific build which is a no no as the wizard itself is a sacred cow) Besides, If sorcerer is being poorly managed as its own class, what makes you think that it being watered down into a subclass wouldn't encourage even more mishandling?

Your argument basically boils down to "I don't want to eff it up in the future, so in order to avoid it, I will eff it up now even harder." Or "I don't want this puppy to be mistreated anymore, so I'm going to put it to sleep and append its name to that other puppy across the street that is always getting a lot of love."

* Because people keep telling the sorcerer was just split from the wizard at some point, but that is a lie. The Wizard/Mage/MU has never covered anything even vaguely resembling a sorcerer. "Splitting" the sorcerer from the wizard didn't result in any narrowing of the class, instead it expanded the character concepts that were possible since none of them could be made before. Placing it under wizard would mean going back to the previous status quo where we trade a class that can cover thousands of concepts and archetypes to one that can't cover even one of them.


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## Haplo781 (Sep 1, 2022)

Sorcerer didn't exist before 3e, and it was literally just "spontaneous casting wizard that uses charisma instead of intelligence." Notably, metamagic was a set of feats (and wizards got bonus metamagic feats; sorcerers didn't). Then 4e made it a Striker (pure damage class) as opposed to the wizard's Controller (crowd control).

5e's "90% identical spell list to the wizard but fewer spell slots, also spell points and metamagic and different subclasses" thing is honestly just kind of a mess. Not different enough to truly justify being its own thing; not similar enough to truly justify folding it in.

I'd really like to see the class get more of its own identity.


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## MoonSong (Sep 1, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Sorcerer didn't exist before 3e, and it was literally just "spontaneous casting wizard that uses charisma instead of intelligence." Notably, metamagic was a set of feats (and wizards got bonus metamagic feats; sorcerers didn't). Then 4e made it a Striker (pure damage class) as opposed to the wizard's Controller (crowd control).




Sorcerer didn't exist before 3e, but the class neatly filled a thematic void left behind by wizards since day 1 of 0th edition. It simply enabled a lot of character concepts that weren't possible before.


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## Mecheon (Sep 1, 2022)

Yeah, it may not have existed prior to 3E, but its stayed around for a reason. The wizard fails at the narrative idea of the spellcaster with natural magic who doesn't get it through study, or the warlock's pact, but instead through their bloodline. Seventh son of a seventh son type of situation.

Frankly my fix for the sorcerer remains "You're the spell points or custom spell making class". Wizards and warlocks have their inscribed spells with specific rules, you on the other hand just grab magic and get it to do a thing through very different means. Probably not as vesitile as a wizard, but that raw magic-grabbing gives a lot more specific flavours. However as much as I like that being its thing, maybe a bit late in the edition to change things up that much


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## Leatherhead (Sep 1, 2022)

To be perfectly honest, if you swap the lore, Warlock mechanics make for better Sorcerers than Sorcerers do.


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## This Effin’ GM (Sep 1, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> As I expressed in a thread a couple of years back, it is impossible to merge sorcerer and wizard without losing either. Merging sorcerer "back"* into wizard would mean   effectively killing the concept. A combined class -or worse turning sorcerer into just a subclass- would be 99% pure wizard  (or so be broad that wizard would be limited to a very specific build which is a no no as the wizard itself is a sacred cow) Besides, If sorcerer is being poorly managed as its own class, what makes you think that it being watered down into a subclass wouldn't encourage even more mishandling?
> 
> Your argument basically boils down to "I don't want to eff it up in the future, so in order to avoid it, I will eff it up now even harder." Or "I don't want this puppy to be mistreated anymore, so I'm going to put it to sleep and append its name to that other puppy across the street that is always getting a lot of love."
> 
> * Because people keep telling the sorcerer was just split from the wizard at some point, but that is a lie. The Wizard/Mage/MU has never covered anything even vaguely resembling a sorcerer. "Splitting" the sorcerer from the wizard didn't result in any narrowing of the class, instead it expanded the character concepts that were possible since none of them could be made before. Placing it under wizard would mean going back to the previous status quo where we trade a class that can cover thousands of concepts and archetypes to one that can't cover even one of them.



My favorite part of this is where in my original post I posited multiple other ideas too but you have honed in on the third one 

You don’t like the one idea, fine, no skin off my back but maybe consider not just grabbing the one sentence and boiling it down to “my arguement”. My arguement was there are many ways to save the sorcerer, preserving the identity is here most of the work needs to be done and if that’s not a priority then fine let’s just make a generic archetype rather than a sub par set of mechanics.


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## gorice (Sep 1, 2022)

The fact that the sorcerer still has both spell slots and sorcery points gives me conniptions. I fully expect d&done to keep these and add metamagic points, usable a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus times the phase of the moon.


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## This Effin’ GM (Sep 1, 2022)

gorice said:


> The fact that the sorcerer still has both spell slots and sorcery points gives me conniptions. I fully expect d&done to keep these and add metamagic points, usable a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus times the phase of the moon.



Cool way for Dragonlance Sorcerer to handle it for sure


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## MechaTarrasque (Sep 2, 2022)

Leatherhead said:


> To be perfectly honest, if you swap the lore, Warlock mechanics make for better Sorcerers than Sorcerers do.



I think I am coming around to that idea, but the idea of backwards compatibility probably dooms it.   That being said, once you get past "the class isn't called sorcerer" (I swear 3x has a lot to answer for), then warlocks solve 90% of sorcerer problems:  once you have EB, you can save your spell slots for utility spells (and since most of the warlock's utility spells come from invocations that don't use spell slots, you can still use your spell slots to zap things), charisma casting, and the whole familiar thing is covered by 2 of the 3 main traditions....

I think warlocks would be better if they were more like the arachnomancer.  Your smart but lazy or jealous warlock get transformed into something where they can use their intellect (I think thematically this works better with smart warlocks than charismatic ones) to be stronger (elemental patron), more graceful (fey patron), tougher (undead patron), able to see the world as it really is (wisdom, GOO patron), or suave (charisma, fiend patron).  Every couple of levels they get the "pick one of three" thing some of the barbarian subclasses get (list of 3 based on patron) so that you can be good at hitting things in interesting ways, add half casting, and when they hit level 20, they might become permanently transformed (gives the patron something, likely what the player wants, and who cares what the warlock wants?)


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## Tales and Chronicles (Sep 2, 2022)

MechaTarrasque said:


> I think I am coming around to that idea, but the idea of backwards compatibility probably dooms it.   That being said, once you get past "the class isn't called sorcerer" (I swear 3x has a lot to answer for), then warlocks solve 90% of sorcerer problems:  once you have EB, you can save your spell slots for utility spells (and since most of the warlock's utility spells come from invocations that don't use spell slots, you can still use your spell slots to zap things), charisma casting, and the whole familiar thing is covered by 2 of the 3 main traditions....
> 
> I think warlocks would be better if they were more like the arachnomancer.  Your smart but lazy or jealous warlock get transformed into something where they can use their intellect (I think thematically this works better with smart warlocks than charismatic ones) to be stronger (elemental patron), more graceful (fey patron), tougher (undead patron), able to see the world as it really is (wisdom, GOO patron), or suave (charisma, fiend patron).  Every couple of levels they get the "pick one of three" thing some of the barbarian subclasses get (list of 3 based on patron) so that you can be good at hitting things in interesting ways, add half casting, and when they hit level 20, they might become permanently transformed (gives the patron something, likely what the player wants, and who cares what the warlock wants?)



You make me realize that the whole ''Warlock as agent of a Patron'' theme would work well for the fabled gish. People often say that the Swordmage lacks an in-setting theme, making it a class that's mostly defined just by its mechanics. 

The 4e Essential warlock (hexblade) was pretty good as a gish, receiving the classic warlocks spells from their patron, but also a cool weapon based on their patron choice. 

An Int-based warlock could be perfect to give the swordmage a raison d'être in-setting while filing a niche that is left empty by the PHB's offering in favor of yet another caster. 

In short:
1) Give the warlock spellcasting chassis to the Sorcerer, making them at last different from the Wizard.
2) Design a Warlock class based on the artificer-chassis: Int-spellcasting from 1st level, pick Blade/Familiar/Tome, Infusing items take a more ''weird fiendish infusion'' vibe instead of science, medium armors, etc etc


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## Marandahir (Sep 2, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> You make me realize that the whole ''Warlock as agent of a Patron'' theme would work well for the fabled gish. People often say that the Swordmage lacks an in-setting theme, making it a class that's mostly defined just by its mechanics.
> 
> The 4e Essential warlock (hexblade) was pretty good as a gish, receiving the classic warlocks spells from their patron, but also a cool weapon based on their patron choice.
> 
> ...



You mean, like a Artificer-caster version of the Blood Hunter? Because that had a lot of overlap with Ranger and Paladin too…

This would be an interesting 3PP or DM’s Guild product, but these sorts of changes are a bit too radical to do while preserving compatibility of narrative and gameplay…


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## Haplo781 (Sep 2, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> Sorcerer didn't exist before 3e, but the class neatly filled a thematic void left behind by wizards since day 1 of 0th edition. It simply enabled a lot of character concepts that weren't possible before.



Thematically sure. But mechanically they've only ever had their own niche in 4e. I'd like that to change.


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## MoonSong (Sep 3, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Thematically sure. But mechanically they've only ever had their own niche in 4e. I'd like that to change.



Take into account that a) Sorcerer has always been dragged down by having overestimated experimental mechanics shoved into it. Them being overestimated has always lead to the class being forced to overpay for them. Changing the current mechanics for newer untested mechanics will only lead to them never being good. What will make them be good? Having the current mechanics polished and rebalanced. That is never going to happen if they just keep reinventing the wheel every time, and that is a reason 4e sorcerer worked a bit in context -though it was also severely handicapped by the nature of rituals which weren't designed to account for a nonbook using spellcaster-. b) The new version is a half edition at best, a wildly radical new design is just not going to happen.


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## Minigiant (Sep 3, 2022)

Personally I like Font of Magic.

I like the idea that sorcerers have a tank of raw uncolored magic that they can twist onto other magic.

But I just hoped there would be some more direct uses of it. Like youcould spend points to make you eyes, mouth,hands, or feet magical forawhile


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 3, 2022)

MoonSong said:


> *Too few spells known.* The smallest amount out of all full casters. This makes the class harder to play than it should be, and limits the ability to cover a theme because there are just not enough spells.
> *Limited class spells.* A lot of the sorcerer class spells focus on combat and there aren't enough non-combat utility effects. Also there are basically no exclusive/sorcerer only spells. And most egregious, Dragon sorcerer can't turn into a dragon despite the spell existing in the game!
> *Too much pressure on sorcery points.* Sorcerer features rely too much on sorcery points. There are too many uses for sorcery points and not enough of them to cast even a full day's assortment of spells and use metamagic, let alone use the other class features.
> *Limited Metamagic.* Metamagic takes too long to come online and once you have it you have too few metamagic options for most of your career. Some options are nearly must-haves and some are too expensive for what they do. Some options aren't in the core book (like damage change)
> ...




I'll be the first to admit that I don't like the Sorcerer class, but since I know it isn't going away... I think most of the things you have highlighted are all reasonable and doable in a Sorcerer revision.

I think Sorcerers gaining more spells known... or the other method, which is each subclass gains a pair of subclass spells each spell level that don't count against their spells known total is completely reasonable and I imagine will be done.

I think most metamagics are underpowered enough that you don't need to worry about making more of them available to Sorcerer PCs.  Personally, I think the easiest/most effective thing to do is have PCs select metamagics they "know" like they do right now... but that they can also use any other metamagics by spending an additional Sorcery Point over their normal cost.

I think Twinned Spell should be removed as a metmagic, as that and Quickened Spell are the two metamagics that cause the most hand-wringing in terms of "overpoweredness"... and it would just save time and energy to remove it entirely as an option and just not try and balance it across every single spell available currently to be Twinned.  (Especially considering Sorcerers would be gaining all the other metamagics as an extra thing to replace it with if my point above was incorporated.)

I think there should be a really long thought and playtest of the idea of switching the Sorcerer over to the Spell Point variant, and adding Spell Points and Sorcery Points together into a single pool.  That would solve the lack of Sorcery Points issue, and will make a genuine feeling of change and difference between Sorcerers and other spellcasters.  But I do think for this to be workable it would need a crap-ton of playtesting... as Sorcerers would now have many more points to spend on metamagics and other abilities, while at the same time perhaps hamstringing themselves if they blow too many points on those things and thus not having enough left over for a proper amount of spells cast in a day.  A Spell Point / Sorcery Point combo would open up many more options... but would be harder for players to guesstimate how best to spend the points in the course of a day.

As far as spell lists themselves... I'm torn.  On the one hand, I am a firm believer that every single Sorcerer subclass should have a smaller but distinct spell list for just that subclass, with spells specifically chosen to apply to that subclass's theme.  So no _Fireballs_ available to Storm Sorcerers for example, but the primal spell _Call Lightning_ is made available instead.  But on the other hand... I also fully realize the amount of page real estate you'd have to add to the game to get that done, and that it really probably isn't feasible.  Because you're talking every subclass having a spell list of 9 levels worth of spells, plus probably every color of Dragon sorcerer having their own too.  That's I think just way too many pages to spend on something that (while cool) just doesn't affect enough people to warrant going that far.  So in that regard, I think just sticking with the one Sorcerer spell list and then the additional two spells known from subclass as above is probably the way to go (which perhaps a sidebar in the PHB or DMG on how to create custom spell lists for individual subclasses.)

Familiars?  I think on the one hand it's so inconsequential that there's no reason you couldn't add it to the Sorcerer spell list... but I also think it's so inconsequential to any one particular Sorcerer that not having it on the Sorcerer spell list and instead making it available via the Magic Initiate feat at 1st level for those players who REALLY want it would be fine too.  If a Sorcerer player wants a familiar they can now get it... but making them available to every Sorcerer is not necessarily needed.  So whatever the survey would say about wants/needs for Sorcerer familiars would be fine with me.

Simple Weapon proficiency?  Fine.  It's a ribbon as you say, so whatever.

Removal of material components?  Add a metamagic for it and I'm good with that idea.  Remove them _entirely_ from Sorcerers though?  Like I've said in all the Psion class discussions... this is one that for balance reasons I completely understand why WotC would not make this change. The game is set up that all spellcasters need components to cast spells across the board.  It's easy to remember and there's no questioning of balance or whatever.  But the game also makes the ignoring or removing of material components so easy-- either by just using focuses which can be completely forgotten about after they've been bought-- or by letting individual DMs just choose not to use them for their Sorcerers and Psions if that matters to them.  But no one needs the book itself to remove material components for them.

*****

In terms of other potential sorcerer abilities?  Unfortunately I think the bigger issue with Sorcerers there compared to Wizards is that the Sorcerer's narrative of character really comes out of their subclass and _not_ their class.  For Wizards... it doesn't matter what spell school you focus on, all the narrative parts of who you are is from the Wizard class itself.  Regardless of school, you still treat magic like a science, you still have to memorize your spells via spell books, you still can acquire new spells by copying from or using other spell books as though they were instruction manuals, etc.  But for Sorcerers... who you are comes directly out of your Origin.  Your subclass gives us the narrative of how you acquired your ability to manipulate magic.  And the term 'Sorcerer' is almost just a title heading for bringing all these individual casters together, as opposed to an actual thing you are.  But that makes it harder to give the class itself more goodies, as those goodies have to be generic enough to apply to every single Origin out there.  Like all Sorcerers being able to detect magic at will?  Should an Aberrant Mind be able to do that?  Does that make sense?  Mayyyyyyyyybe?  I'm sure someone could reason out why this _psionic_ character might detect _magic_, but it doesn't automatically make sense.  And that's going to be the true of a lot of potential "Sorcerer" features one might want to add to the overarching class.  Clockwork Souls and Divine Souls and Wild Mages and Storm Sorcerers are all _very_ different animals... and thus finding features that would make sense to all of them will require a bit of doing.  Not impossible by any stretch... but definitely would require some careful thought.


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## MoonSong (Sep 3, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Personally I like Font of Magic.
> 
> I like the idea that sorcerers have a tank of raw uncolored magic that they can twist onto other magic.
> 
> But I just hoped there would be some more direct uses of it. Like youcould spend points to make you eyes, mouth,hands, or feet magical forawhile



I liked the UA uses for sorcery points. Too bad they didn't make it to Tasha's


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## Gorck (Sep 3, 2022)

DISCLAIMER:  I have yet to actually play a Sorcerer in 5e and I've never given a single thought to rebalancing them until I read this thread.

With that being said, would it be a crazy idea to just give Sorcerers access to all Metamagic options rather than making them choose which ones they know?  That way there would be no need to balance the different Metamagic options, and it might quell the complaints about Sorcerers having too few choices.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Sep 3, 2022)

I think an easy way of doing things would be to remove metamagic and instead buff the upcasting of sorcerers in a more generic way:

*Unleashed Magic*
''When you cast a sorcerer spell using a spell slot of higher level than its usual one per the description of this spell, you can modify the spell in one way of your choice:

If the higher level slot adds damage, you can add an extra damage die to each slot of higher level.
If the spell target more target when casted with a slot of higher level, you can add one extra target per each slots of higher level.
If the spell has a duration of a least 1 minute, it doubles its duration.
If the spell as a radius of a least 10 ft, you can add 5 x your Charisma modifier feet to the radius of the spell."

*Gather Power*
''As a bonus action, you can gather your inerrant magic to break from the restriction of conventional magic and become a raw conduit of power. For the remainder of the round, you ignore material components of the spells you cast unless they have a consumed component. You can use this bonus action only if you haven't moved during this turn, and after you use the bonus action, your speed is 0 until the end of the current turn.''


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## Mephista (Sep 3, 2022)

So.  My 2$ worth on the sorcerer. 

Tasha was indeed on the right track.  However!!! Most people think about the themed spell lists, maybe the alt. features, and that's it.  Oh no. There is more I want from Tasha's.  There are two magic items - gemstones/crystals and the blood vial.  The blood vial replenishes sorcery points, something we all (?) agree on is needed in the core class. The crystals?  They create extra effects whever you spend sorcery points. And THAT is how I want to see the sorcerer go as part of the base class. Spend a point on metamagic, get your spell off and get a second benefit based on your subclass. 

The last thing I want from Tasha's? Aberrant Mind as the default subclass.  Psionics. People in this thread have talked about just giving up and letting the sorcerer get eaten by the wizard or warlock. Nay! Let the sorcerer pull it's inspiration from the psion! I mean, one third of dragons are psionic too. Both psions and sorcerers are all about the internal magic, be it blood, mind, soul. Go all in.

With Aberrant Mind as the default subclass, this also opens up Dragon Soul to become the gish subclass.  Every other caster has one.  Sorcerer should too. Turning into a dragon as your gish option sounds good to me.


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## MoonSong (Sep 4, 2022)

Mephista said:


> So.  My 2$ worth on the sorcerer.
> 
> Tasha was indeed on the right track.  However!!! Most people think about the themed spell lists, maybe the alt. features, and that's it.  Oh no. There is more I want from Tasha's.  There are two magic items - gemstones/crystals and the blood vial.  The blood vial replenishes sorcery points, something we all (?) agree on is needed in the core class. The crystals?  They create extra effects whever you spend sorcery points. And THAT is how I want to see the sorcerer go as part of the base class. Spend a point on metamagic, get your spell off and get a second benefit based on your subclass.
> 
> ...



Is Carrie a witch(sorceress)? Or is she a psion? Is the distinction different enough? Is the distinction worth keeping? Considering we might not get thw psion at all?


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## Mephista (Sep 4, 2022)

Warlocks are D&D's version of witches, not sorcerers. They even get the pointy hats!


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## MoonSong (Sep 4, 2022)

Mephista said:


> Warlocks are D&D's version of witches, not sorcerers. They even get the pointy hats!



There are lots of ideas of what a Witch is. Anyway. Carrie is outright called a sorceress by her mother...


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## Chaosmancer (Sep 4, 2022)

Sorry it took me so long to get here @MoonSong , been a heck of a week. 

I agree with most of the stuff said in the thread so far. Tasha's gave us more spells, and the ability to swap out spells of specific schools, which is a great idea. I made it part of my sorcerer re-write (which I've actually put out in the wild a few times) 

I agree that making them spell point based and mixing the sorcery points into that directly to give a more pool of magic feel is great. I did that too. 

Those alternate uses that should have made it in Tasha's? Got 'em. 


But, the one big thing I included (ie stole from other homebrews) that just feels so so needed, is I made better metamagics. 

The thing is, metamagic is always touted as part of this, frankly, lie about the difference between sorcerers and wizards. "Wizards know more spells, but sorcerers use their spells in unique ways to solve problems" 

This is just flatly false. Not a single metamagic in the official game takes fireball and lets you do anything with it other than fireball. Maybe you fireball faster, or you fireball farther away, or you do a worse version of the wizard's ability to fireball harder or fireball safer for your allies, but it is always nothing but fireball. 


But, what about a metamagic that allowed you to flare the fires so that your fireball blinded people? NOW you have altered fireball, now you have made it something else. Metamagic to give poison damage spells the ability to poison people. Another one where you can cast a spell on a single target, and heal them (or yourself) so that you can make your buffs do more. Another one where you spend sorcery points when you cast the spell, and then if you would lose concentration on the spell it "lingers" and doesn't actually dissipate until the end of your next turn. 

In other words, make the LIE a REALITY. Sorcerers can take a limited list of spells and do things with them that no one else can. They can cast haste and also increase your natural healing to heal 1d8+mod. They can cause the caustic poison they send against you to linger and attack your bloodstream. They can make magic stickier. 

And the most beautiful thing about this, is that while it is harder to balance for a single person, it has a built in cost. Because you've mixed sorcerery points and spell points, you can look at every ability and just ask "is this about as powerful as a 1st level spell? A second level spell?" And adjust the point costs accordingly. I also did my best to give unique metamagics to each sorcerer bloodline. 

Shadow Sorcerers can spend points to create zones of darkness wherever they used an AOE, is my favorite example. Though some of them were also just built into the class, like making the Dragon Sorcerer's aura of fear better and giving them the ability to spend points to empower the Dragon Breath spell. Dragon Fear was especially fun, because I made a second, stronger version of it that cost 13 points (the equivalent of a 9th level spell) and the sorcerer is able to ignore immunity to fear and charm. Sounds unbalanced? But it is, again, the same cost I give to casting Wish or Meteor Swarm but it also allows you to terrifying Orcus because you ARE *A DRAGON!!! *(_Dramatic pyrotechnics_)


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## Lucas Yew (Sep 4, 2022)

Have Sorcerers finally get rid of all spell components from their class spells.

Their magic is built in, why would they rely on specific limbs and/or an artificial phonetic language system to unleash natural magic?


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## Gorck (Sep 4, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> 6) No spell component unless they are consumed. Give them a visual tell if need be, but checks to counterspell or identify a sorcerer's spellcasting are made at disadvantage.



I know I'm a couple weeks late to the party on this post, but this point reminds me of the POWERS OF THE MIND feature of a Psion subclass on D&D Beyond that was created by some random user that I've never, ever heard of before in all my entire life.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Sep 4, 2022)

Gorck said:


> I know I'm a couple weeks late to the party on this post, but this point reminds me of the POWERS OF THE MIND feature of a Psion subclass on D&D Beyond that was created by some random user that I've never, ever heard of before in all my entire life.



Yeah, to be honest, Psion and Sorcerer kinda share the same theme of ''power from the inside'', so this kinda feature, while pretty basic, is spot on for the story these classes wanna tell. 

But like everything related to magic, if a Wizard cant do it in some way, no way in hell any other class will be able to do it.

Personally I'd give 4 archetypes to the sorcerer in the PHB: Dragon, Chaos, Storm and Mind (being the psion). Mind would be your classical psion stuff, with maybe subtypes like the Hunter Ranger or Totem Barb to focus more on Telekinesis, Telepathy or Egoism (do not reprint the Aberrant Mind, because not every psion want the whole tentacles/mythos/madness baggage)


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## Gorck (Sep 4, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> Yeah, to be honest, Psion and Sorcerer kinda share the same theme of ''power from the inside'', so this kinda feature, while pretty basic, is spot on for the story these classes wanna tell.
> 
> But like everything related to magic, if a Wizard cant do it in some way, no way in hell any other class will be able to do it.
> 
> Personally I'd give 4 archetypes to the sorcerer in the PHB: Dragon, Chaos, Storm and Mind (being the psion). Mind would be your classical psion stuff, with maybe subtypes like the Hunter Ranger or Totem Barb to focus more on Telekinesis, Telepathy or Egoism (do not reprint the Aberrant Mind, because not every psion want the whole tentacles/mythos/madness baggage)



The problem with a Psion subclass in my opinion is that it's difficult to find the right class for it.  Psions scream "brain power" to me, so it would be more appropriate for them to be INT based like a Wizard, rather than CHA based.  But Psionic powers aren't learned from study books; they're inherent in you from birth like a Sorcerer.  WotC went one way by making the Aberrant Mind a Sorcerer sublass.  I went the other way and made my Psion a Wizard subclass that eschews the spellbook and needing to prepare spells.

The ideal solution would be to make the Psion a separate class, but not like the Mystic UA.  More like porting over the 3.5e Psion that I loved to play back in the day.  But, I've probably hijacked this Sorcerer thread enough with my Psion rambling.


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## Aldarc (Sep 4, 2022)

Gorck said:


> The problem with a Psion subclass in my opinion is that it's difficult to find the right class for it.  *Psions scream "brain power" to me, so it would be more appropriate for them to be INT based like a Wizard, rather than CHA based.  *But Psionic powers aren't learned from study books; they're inherent in you from birth like a Sorcerer.  WotC went one way by making the Aberrant Mind a Sorcerer sublass.  I went the other way and made my Psion a Wizard subclass that eschews the spellbook and needing to prepare spells.
> 
> The ideal solution would be to make the Psion a separate class, but not like the Mystic UA.  More like porting over the 3.5e Psion that I loved to play back in the day.  But, I've probably hijacked this Sorcerer thread enough with my Psion rambling.



Whereas to me, Psion screams WIS based since many of its powers pertain to willpower, extrasensory _perception_, intuition, mysticism, insight, feelings, etc. rather than intelligence, education, knowledge, or logic.


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## This Effin’ GM (Sep 4, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> Whereas to me, Psion screams WIS based since many of its powers pertain to willpower, extrasensory _perception_, intuition, myticism, insight, feelings, etc. rather than intelligence, education, knowledge, or logic.



Yeah I tend to lean this way. Though I would say charisma being defined as personal awareness makes a decent argument but yeah wis makes a lot more sense. Very monklike in the sense of personal mastery


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## Mind of tempest (Sep 4, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> Whereas to me, Psion screams WIS based since many of its powers pertain to willpower, extrasensory _perception_, intuition, myticism, insight, feelings, etc. rather than intelligence, education, knowledge, or logic.





This Effin’ GM said:


> Yeah I tend to lean this way. Though I would say charisma being defined as personal awareness makes a decent argument but yeah wis makes a lot more sense. Very monklike in the sense of personal mastery



it would also let them go toward themes of enlightenment to contrast it with the service of divine caster and the almost science but definitely mathematic base of arcane(bards would oddly work well with a math derived arcane base as those good at math tend to also be good at music)


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## Gorck (Sep 4, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> Whereas to me, Psion screams WIS based since many of its powers pertain to willpower, extrasensory _perception_, intuition, myticism, insight, feelings, etc. rather than intelligence, education, knowledge, or logic.



While I feel they should be INT based, I can certainly see them being WIS based more than CHA based.  All the more reason to make them a separate class.   Wizard = INT Arcane casters, Psion = WIS Arcane casters, and Sorcerer = CHA Arcane casters.


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## Blue (Sep 4, 2022)

Coming into this thread rather late, but one change that I think could be interesting is to move from spells known to "spell themes known".

What I mean by that is that sorcerers are supposed to be naturals at what they do - they don't have the breadth of a wizard who can study anything, but can manipulate what they do know.  But metamagic is nice, not defining, so they fall a bit short of that.

So instead have "Spell Themes", like "Projecting Fire" or "Space Manipulation", and each of these has a number of spells - at least one per level, probably more for the lower levels.  And the fiction is that the Sorcerer knows how to Project Fire, and is twisting that in various ways - this round to send s fan of fire from her hand, next to send an array of bolts, and when she gets a bit better to do a huge ball of fire.

At that point we can even allow benefits to the themes as they go up in levels.  So maybe the first one you picked get a free level of upcast when you hit 7th.  Or once per round metamagic costs one less (min 0) for one Spell Theme you pick at 9th.  Maybe at some level in the teens you can concentrate on two spells in the same Spell Theme, because for you it's "the same spell" narratively, just manifesting in two different ways.

Mind you, you'll have less spell themes known than spells known.  From a practical point of view we'd have to see if there are any "spells known tax" that basically every sorcerer takes - if so we could put that on a common list all sorcerers get, either as free spells known for all (which can get same-y), or a spells that they can cast even if not in one of their spell themes for 1 SP.


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## MechaTarrasque (Sep 4, 2022)

If you look at people who are "naturals" at magic in fiction, most of them have great (almost subconscious) sensitivity to magic, which makes me think the sorcerer would be better as a wisdom caster.  Since wisdom gets caught up in religious and nature-based casting, D&D has never dug deep into what it really would mean to be a wisdom caster.  So if the sorcerer was a wisdom caster, they might be able to, say, automatically know the level and school of any spell they see being cast (great for counterspell), among other things....


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## Clint_L (Sep 5, 2022)

Sorcerers suffer from being confined to a Vancian magic system that was designed for wizards, so they always just feel like a weird more limited kind of wizard - a wizard with the gimmick that they get their magic innately rather than from study.

IMO, you won't be able to really fix sorcerers while still keeping them within largely the same spell lists and system as wizards. Suggestion:

1. Give them some cool, unique spells that reflect their magical heritage and other classes are envious of, the same way Clerics are envied for revivify, etc.

2. (more radical; WotC will never go for it): take them off the Vancian magic system and have them do everything with sorcery points, giving them enough sorcery points to keep up. Thus, they will sacrifice the versatility of a wizard in terms of spell choice for versatility in how to spend their magic. Sorcery points already do this to some degree so just take it to the logical conclusion. Make them play totally differently from wizards.

In other words, a sorcerer wouldn't have any spell slots at all. They'd just have the spells they know and a bunch of sorcery points to figure out how to combine.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Sep 5, 2022)

Comes a time when I think they should just remove the Wizard. 

1) The class as barely any features beyond having access to all arcane magic. Sadly, them being ''THE arcane class'' makes the other attempting to share the same niche pale in comparison. 

2) The ''magic is learned, not something you are born with'' trope is steadily losing relevance when compared to the more common ''I'm born with magic and I develop this power'' or ''I inherited power through chance encounter with X'' with is represented in game by the Sorcerer and Warlock. The ''magic as lore'' would be better left to the real scholar class, the Bard. 

3) The Wizard's archetypes lack any themes beyond the school they master, which is only a self-reference to a traditionally D&Dism. 

4) The Wizard seems to be the only reason Intelligence is still a stat in the game. Move lore proficiencies to general proficiencies like tools and languages. Replace Intelligence with something lacking in D&D like Sense or Perception, finally getting rid at the same time of the weird Wisdom = Eyesight and Hunting!
Wisdom = Reasoning, Memory, Disciplined Mind etc, Perception = Investigation, Spot, Hunting etc, Charisma = Presence, Willpower, Cunning etc



sorry...that's it for today's rant.


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## Clint_L (Sep 5, 2022)

I mean...if either class was on the chopping block it would be sorcerers, not wizards, so I don't think we wanna go that route. And they sure as heck are not getting rid of an OG stat like Intelligence (plus, speaking as an old guy, intelligence and wisdom...not the same thing). Wizards work pretty okay. It's sorcerers that need help.


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## Clint_L (Sep 5, 2022)

Though, in the spirit of backwards compatibility and the minor tinkering that seems to be on the table for 1D&D, just adding some really good, class exclusive spells for sorcerers would go a long way.


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## Azzy (Sep 5, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Though, in the spirit of backwards compatibility and the minor tinkering that seems to be on the table for 1D&D, just adding some really good, class exclusive spells for sorcerers would go a long way.



And some more thematic spells for the different subclasses.


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## Mephista (Sep 5, 2022)

Clint_L said:


> Though, in the spirit of backwards compatibility and the minor tinkering that seems to be on the table for 1D&D, just adding some really good, class exclusive spells for sorcerers would go a long way.



I think, based on the origins video and the UA, they're actually eliminating individual class lists for sorcerer, wizard and warlock and merging them into that one Arcane list. 

Probably still have individual subclass lists, but... I think base wizards and base sorcerers will use the same list


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## Haplo781 (Sep 6, 2022)

Mephista said:


> I think, based on the origins video and the UA, they're actually eliminating individual class lists for sorcerer, wizard and warlock and merging them into that one Arcane list.
> 
> Probably still have individual subclass lists, but... I think base wizards and base sorcerers will use the same list



There is no indication of this. The Arcane, Divine, and Primal lists appear to be for things like Magic Initiate.


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## MechaTarrasque (Sep 6, 2022)

There really weren't any "class-specific" spells in 5e, magic initiate and the bard killed that idea from the PHB on, and I don't see that changing in 1D&D.  What they could do is give every sorcerer subclass a table like the wild magic sorcerer, and have something dragon-y, stormy, or shadowy happen when you can activate the table.


Mephista said:


> I think, based on the origins video and the UA, they're actually eliminating individual class lists for sorcerer, wizard and warlock and merging them into that one Arcane list.
> 
> Probably still have individual subclass lists, but... I think base wizards and base sorcerers will use the same list



Unless they move the sorcerer to the primal magic list.  It would help even out things:  Primal is sorcerers, druids, and rangers; arcane is wizards, warlocks, and bards; and divine is clerics and paladins and maybe the monk.  It also means that sorcerers aren't directly competing with wizards (something that WotC tried in 4e and the 5e playtest).


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## ScuroNotte (Sep 6, 2022)

Hawk Diesel said:


> I have been summoned!
> 
> But seriously, I think themed spell lists can go a long way. I also like the Tasha's option to be able to switch out one known spell for a different one once per long rest, allowing you to really tune in your spell selection without feeling penalized for taking a spell that doesn't quite work in the way you'd like.
> 
> ...



I do agree that a themed spell list is great, but it should be done as the Warlock. The reason it’s optional is due to the number of limited spells known.  I would prefer to increase number known (such as 20 or 22) and offer theme spells as optional choices.


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## Mephista (Sep 6, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> There is no indication of this. The Arcane, Divine, and Primal lists appear to be for things like Magic Initiate.



The UA doc says, "In future Unearthed Arcana articles, we'll show how _Classes use these lists _and how a Class or Subclass _might__ gain spells from another list_." Emphasis mine.

I can't see any way of interpreting this other than Classes use one of these lists for their spells, with an option to *maybe* get more from elsewhere. Which implies that this replaces class lists to me. I mean, that's one way to solve discrepency between spell classes.


MechaTarrasque said:


> Unless they move the sorcerer to the primal magic list.  It would help even out things:  Primal is sorcerers, druids, and rangers; arcane is wizards, warlocks, and bards; and divine is clerics and paladins and maybe the monk.  It also means that sorcerers aren't directly competing with wizards (something that WotC tried in 4e and the 5e playtest).



Sure, the Sorcerer wouldn't be competing against the Wizard anymore, but then the class would just be in direct competion with the Druid instead, wouldn't it?


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## Haplo781 (Sep 6, 2022)

Mephista said:


> The UA doc says, "In future Unearthed Arcana articles, we'll show how _Classes use these lists _and how a Class or Subclass _might__ gain spells from another list_." Emphasis mine.
> 
> I can't see any way of interpreting this other than Classes use one of these lists for their spells, with an option to *maybe* get more from elsewhere. Which implies that this replaces class lists to me. I mean, that's one way to solve discrepency between spell classes.
> 
> Sure, the Sorcerer wouldn't be competing against the Wizard anymore, but then the class would just be in direct competion with the Druid instead, wouldn't it?



There is zero chance bards get fireball. None.


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## Mephista (Sep 6, 2022)

Then kindly explain what that line from the UA means, please.  Because it seems to be indicating that.

I mean, it'd be good for the Sorcerer too, because no more wizards automatically being better spellcasters by virtue of a more comprehensive list. So that's one thing.


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## Gorck (Sep 6, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> There is zero chance bards get fireball. None.



Bards already can get Fireball, at 10th level (or 6th for College of Lore)


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## Haplo781 (Sep 6, 2022)

Gorck said:


> Bards already can get Fireball, at 10th level (or 6th for College of Lore)



Picking up a spell 5 levels late at a significant opportunity cost is absolutely the same as having it on your class list


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## Gorck (Sep 6, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Picking up a spell 5 levels late at a significant opportunity cost is absolutely the same as having it on your class list



You said there's zero chance they'll get it and I pointed out that they already can get it.  Nowhere was there any mention of timing or opportunity cost (College of Lore only has to wait 1 more level that a Wizard/Sorcerer).


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## OB1 (Sep 7, 2022)

Late to the party, but thought I'd put my two coppers in.  I think the sorcerer can be fixed with just 2 changes.

1.  Sorcerers gain access to ALL metamagics at 2nd level.  The metamagics they pick reduce the sorcery point cost by 1 for that metamagic. (may need to change the point cost for a couple of metamagics to 2 for this to balance)
2. Add Eschew Components as a metamagic.  Costs 1 point if no material cost, 3 points if there is a material cost.

Now the sorcerer is able to use metamagic every single turn, while gaining access to sculpt their spells in other ways by spending sorcery points when necessary.  The metamagics you choose to have the cost reduced by 1 now define you as a sorcerer.  See your sorcerer as the type that magic just comes out of?  Take Subtle and Eschew Components.  Want to be a blaster for all situations?  Take Empowered or Careful with Transmuted.  And so on and so forth.

Note that option 1 I've had as a house rule for years.  Only had 1 sorcerer in any of my games, but she loved it and it didn't seem to break anything or make her OP.


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## Marandahir (Sep 8, 2022)

Gorck said:


> While I feel they should be INT based, I can certainly see them being WIS based more than CHA based.  All the more reason to make them a separate class.   Wizard = INT Arcane casters, Psion = WIS Arcane casters, and Sorcerer = CHA Arcane casters.





Gorck said:


> The problem with a Psion subclass in my opinion is that it's difficult to find the right class for it.  Psions scream "brain power" to me, so it would be more appropriate for them to be INT based like a Wizard, rather than CHA based.  But Psionic powers aren't learned from study books; they're inherent in you from birth like a Sorcerer.  WotC went one way by making the Aberrant Mind a Sorcerer sublass.  I went the other way and made my Psion a Wizard subclass that eschews the spellbook and needing to prepare spells.
> 
> The ideal solution would be to make the Psion a separate class, but not like the Mystic UA.  More like porting over the 3.5e Psion that I loved to play back in the day.  But, I've probably hijacked this Sorcerer thread enough with my Psion rambling.





Aldarc said:


> Whereas to me, Psion screams WIS based since many of its powers pertain to willpower, extrasensory _perception_, intuition, mysticism, insight, feelings, etc. rather than intelligence, education, knowledge, or logic.



Why not just divorce classes from a single Primary ability score?

Fighters and Rangers (and anyone else training in weapons) already can use either STR or DEX for their primary attacking ability.
Could we have bookish Pact of the Tome INTlocks? What about Psionic SorcerINTs?

I get that Dexterity is broken, but it's already a viable option for Fighters and Rangers instead of Strength. Would it be that broken to let Sorcerers choose which casting ability they use at 1st level? 

Some classes don't make sense for this - Bards should be CHA, Clerics and Druids WIS, Wizards and Artificers INT. But I could see (and have seen) WIS Paladins, CHA Rangers (animal handling focused?), and the afformentioned Sorcerers and Warlocks… I could even see WIS Sorcerers occupying a Shamanistic role, having made pacts with Primal Spirits or the Animals walking in their dreams…


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 8, 2022)

Marandahir said:


> Some classes don't make sense for this - Bards should be CHA, Clerics and Druids WIS, Wizards and Artificers INT.



On the contrary, I think even some of these make sense.  Divination and Illusion wizards would use INT... but if you are an Enchanter and deal with charms?  A CHA wizard makes all the sense in the world.  Necromancy deals with life and death, so you could certainly go in the WIS wizard direction.  On the flip side... while Life, Grave and Nature Clerics could obviously stick with WIS... your Arcana and Knowledge Clerics could easily be INT-based and Trickery domain could go CHA.

Would it be a bit of a change?  Sure.  Does it make a bit of sense?  I believe so.  Would I be upset if they didn't change it?  Nope.  This is one of those things that they could keep it either way and I'd be fine with it.  Because if I really felt I needed to have it the other way that they choose, I could just make the change for myself in my own home game.


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## Marandahir (Sep 8, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> On the contrary, I think even some of these make sense.  Divination and Illusion wizards would use INT... but if you are an Enchanter and deal with charms?  A CHA wizard makes all the sense in the world.  Necromancy deals with life and death, so you could certainly go in the WIS wizard direction.  On the flip side... while Life, Grave and Nature Clerics could obviously stick with WIS... your Arcana and Knowledge Clerics could easily be INT-based and Trickery domain could go CHA.
> 
> Would it be a bit of a change?  Sure.  Does it make a bit of sense?  I believe so.  Would I be upset if they didn't change it?  Nope.  This is one of those things that they could keep it either way and I'd be fine with it.  Because if I really felt I needed to have it the other way that they choose, I could just make the change for myself in my own home game.



In that case, I'd suggest the following:

STR & DEX deal with weapon attacks. If you use a weapon, you use one of these.
CON deals with HP. Everyone wants this to an extent.
INT, WIS, CHA are mental abilities. Casters pick one of these and stick with it for their entire class.

No need to force people to choose one of them. 

Initiative should be separated from DEX.

Ultimately then, the main differentiating factor is for ability checks made (and the skills the modify them; but even then, you could divorce a skill prof from an ability, like Intimidation skill bonus to a STR check made to do something intimidating with your hulking bod).


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## Gorck (Sep 9, 2022)

Marandahir said:


> Initiative should be separated from DEX.



Why would you do that?  Speed and agility lead to quicker reactions and response time.


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## Haplo781 (Sep 9, 2022)

Gorck said:


> Why would you do that?  Speed and agility lead to quicker reactions and response time.



So can situational awareness (Wisdom) or just having a good head on your shoulders (Int).


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## Marandahir (Sep 9, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> So can situational awareness (Wisdom) or just having a good head on your shoulders (Int).



Or muscular strength, for that matter. 

It might be hard to justify for some abilities. But perhaps it should just be Prof+ with a flat bonus to it and possibility of increasing with feat choice…

DEX as is is an outlier that is overly useful.


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## Gorck (Sep 9, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> So can situational awareness (Wisdom) or just having a good head on your shoulders (Int).



having situational awareness or a good head on your shoulders still doesn't make you physically able to move faster.

It reminds me of a show I used to watch back in the day called _No Ordinary Family_.  The whole family had superpowers, and the son's power was the ability to do complex mathematical computations in his head.  He wound up becoming the star quarterback on his high school football team because, in the middle of a play, he could calculate exactly where the ball needed to be thrown to complete the pass.  But, I objected to myself, just because he could determine where the ball needed to be thrown doesn't mean he had the arm strength and accuracy to get it there.

But, I seem to have hijacked this thread away from Sorcerers.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Sep 9, 2022)

Marandahir said:


> Or muscular strength, for that matter.
> 
> It might be hard to justify for some abilities. But perhaps it should just be Prof+ with a flat bonus to it and possibility of increasing with feat choice…
> 
> DEX as is is an outlier that is overly useful.



Maybe Prof + Class bonus (Rogues +5, Ranger/Monk +3, Fighter/Barbarian +2) ?


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## MechaTarrasque (Sep 9, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> On the contrary, I think even some of these make sense.  Divination and Illusion wizards would use INT... but if you are an Enchanter and deal with charms?  A CHA wizard makes all the sense in the world.  Necromancy deals with life and death, so you could certainly go in the WIS wizard direction.  On the flip side... while Life, Grave and Nature Clerics could obviously stick with WIS... your Arcana and Knowledge Clerics could easily be INT-based and Trickery domain could go CHA.
> 
> Would it be a bit of a change?  Sure.  Does it make a bit of sense?  I believe so.  Would I be upset if they didn't change it?  Nope.  This is one of those things that they could keep it either way and I'd be fine with it.  Because if I really felt I needed to have it the other way that they choose, I could just make the change for myself in my own home game.



If you had good charisma, why would you need or even want to use skeezy magic to get people to do what you want?  What motivation could there be to do so?  I really good at talking people into doing what I want, but I am not going to do that, because?

I know I have just totally invalidated the bard, but... doesn't it make more sense to use magic to do something you aren't good at without magic?  I can totally see the CHA evocation wizard:  you turned me down, well, I got a little something for you that I call fireball....


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## Stalker0 (Sep 9, 2022)

MechaTarrasque said:


> If you had good charisma, why would you need or even want to use skeezy magic to get people to do what you want?  What motivation could there be to do so?



Power....absolute power.


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## MechaTarrasque (Sep 9, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Power....absolute power.



I work under the assumption that D&D assumes a training-based model--you get more STR, INT, CON, DEX, CHA, or WIS because you work at it, and hopefully you get a little bit of joy in the work.  Casting a spell to do what you enjoy instead of doing it seems like a bad deal ("I'm going to cast a spell that will eat that chocolate cake that I really want instead of me eating it") unless there is an emergency.  I can totally buy a CHA wizard casting spells that don't involve CHA skills, like hitting people or being more observant or sneaky.  Likewise, I can see an INT wizard or a WIS wizard (say that 3 times fast) wanting to have the Rock's "smoldering gaze" from Jumanji ("who's cool now?") and using magic to get it.

And for the 1,000's....er, 100's....er, couple of bard players panicking about this, your PC is clearly using magic to up his/her lung power so everyone can hear you sing or give him/her an indestructible finger so he/she can hit the power cords on his/her lute for 5 minutes straight without bleeding all over the place (strings can be sharp). so that is a totally different thing from the wizard.


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## Haplo781 (Sep 9, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> Maybe Prof + Class bonus (Rogues +5, Ranger/Monk +3, Fighter/Barbarian +2) ?



Class bonus to initiative would make a lot more sense in a role-based system like 4e where you don't always necessarily want to go first


Stalker0 said:


> Power....absolute power.


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## DEFCON 1 (Sep 9, 2022)

MechaTarrasque said:


> If you had good charisma, why would you need or even want to use skeezy magic to get people to do what you want?  What motivation could there be to do so?  I really good at talking people into doing what I want, but I am not going to do that, because?
> 
> I know I have just totally invalidated the bard, but... doesn't it make more sense to use magic to do something you aren't good at without magic?  I can totally see the CHA evocation wizard:  you turned me down, well, I got a little something for you that I call fireball....



I understand what you mean and agree to a certain extent... but I also think that most people and characters tend to lean into their strengths.  A person's nature is such that (and D&D mechanics tend to highlight this) if you are good at something, you tend to focus on it to be even better.  Rogues take Expertise in their best skills so that they can be the best of the best.  A warrior who focuses on a specific weapon tends to go all-in on boosting their abilities they get when using that weapon.  (Until specific racial mods got removed in recent books) characters that were of a certain race oftentimes took classes for whom the racial modifier bonus boosted the score they were going to be using for that class.  And even just normal characters more often that not will take proficiency in skills that match their primary ability score so their total bonus can be higher.

So even just thinking about this narratively... if you are really smart but uncharismatic, will you spend all your time studying a magic to which you are unused to being or unsuited for?  I agree that it does make sense from a certain point of view to use magic to compensate for your lack of ability... but we're talking wizards that are spending countless months and years trying to learn magic and more importantly _specifically focus_ on a certain type of magic... and for it to be one where you have no natural inclination or skill seems to be an uphill battle that most wizards I don't know would undertake.

After all... if you were the most popular and charismatic kid in magic school, what is more likely?  Playing into it and getting even more popular... or going off to the basement with all the goth kids to study necromancy?  I'm sure there would be some kids that would in fact do that... but I don't think that would be the norm.  

And at the end of the day it doesn't really matter either way, cause I don't think WotC would ever make this change regardless, LOL.


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## CreamCloud0 (Sep 9, 2022)

Would it be too powerful if sorcerers could just use their chosen metamagics on their cantrips for free? This probably wouldn’t be a good idea to combine this with the ‘sorcerers have all their metamagics’ idea at the same time though


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## Vael (Sep 9, 2022)

My main concern about granting sorcerers unlimited access to all their metamagic is that it makes adding new metamagics a little problematic. And I do think this is the space to make sorcerers more unique and interesting. All the current ones just augment spells (except for Transmute), their duration, damage, distance, effectiveness, etc.

And what I'd like to see is metamagics that might also rider effects to spells, like Explosive spell makes an area effect spell push creatures caught in the blast around. Or Warding spell that simply gives the caster a defensive bonus to AC or some temp hp.


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## RealAlHazred (Sep 9, 2022)

For years I've been using the Tweaked Sorcerer by /u/SwordMeow. Highly recommended homebrew!


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