# <Rant> Where has courtesy gone?



## Harmon (Jun 22, 2005)

<Rant> Where has courtesy gone?

Sense I was in my teens I have noticed the decline in thank yous, apologizes, excuse me, bless yous, pleases, and such.  Why has rudeness become so dominate?  Examples-

I opened the door for a woman (she is coming into the mall I am going out) pushing a baby carriage the other day- behind me was a small group of teen-age males, they went through the open door, making the woman and her new born wait for them.  “That was rude,” I stated.  “Yes, very,” the woman replied.  Which got the attention of the punks that had moved through, though it was not said to them- only of them.  It was a nasty look I got, but no comments were exchanged beyond that.  The woman with the carriage thanked me, and I said, “you are welcome.”

Would I have held the door for the guys?  If they had stopped and allowed her to go first- ya, I would have.

A woman sneezes in class today.  “Bless you,” I said.  The guy that was helping her with her class work told me to “<blank> off.”  It was a courtesy I was extending, I know God hates me and would never bless anyone for me, but how would the boyfriend know?  I shook my head and went back to work.  Rudeness rules.  Or was it jealous, could I steal his girl with a blessing that is worthless then the dust on the bottom of my shoes?

Apologizes seem meaningless as well.  More then a half dozen later and I find that I have lost a friend, though I feel that I did about half of the damage to the relationship I gave all the apologizes.  Was one ever extended?  Nope.  It was a request that was simple, some harsh words, and finally ending comments I made in a flare of my temper- for which I apologized.  Was it accepted?  Nope.  Would I accept his?  In a heartbeat, would we be friends still if he had said- “I am sorry,” yep.

Another thing is the- “excuse me, sir,” or “excuse me, miss,” seems to go over in varied fashion, some times people do react in the positive and I always (always being 99% of the time) say thank you or thanks.   

Girls crowding the sidewalk today, construction workers on the road, I have to go down the sidewalk (through the five young ladies) or across the street, down, then back across.  “Excuse me,” I say in the kindest tone I can muster to the one looking at me.  “Your excused,” she says and they all laugh.  I give a weak smile.  “I would like to go past, please,” I was biting my tongue, ‘don’t say it,’ I ordered myself.  She blinked, stunned, obviously not understanding the courtesy.  Her and her friends just looked at me and moved aside.  “Thank you,” I said to them as a whole.  I was twenty feet beyond when one of them called- “your welcome,” I glanced back and she waved.  I returned the gesture and she smiled.  They went from mocking and rude to bewildered and stunned at something they seemed not to have ever seen.    

At the soda machine in Taco Smell the other day- a young man ahead of me fills his soda.  He stands his position at the machine after his cup is full, grabs a lid two feet away (there is a counter in front of the lids), places it on top of his soda- “excuse me,” I gesture to the machine with my empty cup, as he looks at me.  It’s a glare I receive and a “you can wait,” type comment with an unkind curse in the comment.  He takes a straw, preps it and places it in his soda then turns to look at me.

Now I am six foot plus, two hundred thirty pounds run a ten-minute mile, can press better then my weight, can swing a 24 oz hammer all day (set and drive 16 penny Commons).  I have a nasty temper that usually results in a lot more bark then bite (I haven’t hit anyone in a lot of years).  When he turned to give me his best intimidating glare I was staring into his eyes- “learn some <nasty word> manners or I will teach them to you,” I told him at a whisper that paled his face a little.  He fled without his food (I had to smile when the woman behind the counter called a number three times with a bag of food in hand- no one claimed it).  I guess I was scarier then he thought.

A pharmacy recently went in near our house- its number is one digit off of ours, so we get a lot of wrong numbers.  I know the number they want and inform them in as kind of tone as I can what they number was.  About 9 out of 10 calls the caller is kind and thanks me, once in a while I get a person that is really sick or in pain and they can’t help it but have a bad attitude.  I try to give them the benefit of doubt, but still it was their misdial that got me instead of the store they wanted- shouldn’t they apologize?  “Sorry, for calling you at mid night,” but those people just do not understand courtesy I guess.

Please- is a word that I have heard so seldom as of late that I think it will be removed from the dictionary soon.  “Hand me that pen,” has replaced “would you please hand me that pen?”  

These are just examples of the things I have seen.  It seems to be getting worse and its really starting to get to me.  Why is it that people can’t treat other people how they want to be treated?  

Another thing is more personal in nature- why is it that I feel that I am being perceived in a negative fashion? My intent is one manner and perceived in the opposite.  Are my courtesies perceived in a negative fashion?  Are my thank yous taken as condescending?  My apologizes seen as half assed?  The word, please, when it leaves my lips do people take it in an unkind fashion?  Is that why I feel so many people are becoming rude and uncaring?  Is it that they perceive me as being rude and uncaring so they return the favor?

Should I just give up and not be kind at all?  Should I have slammed the punk’s head into the soda machine, like I wanted to?  Should I have just stepped back and said nothing (letting him think rudeness got him what he wanted)?  Nah.  I think it would be an insult to who I am, to the person that I want to be when I grow up.

I am getting tire.  I know that people want to be treated with respect and kindness, but when you come at me with disrespect and unkind words and gestures I get cranky and my temper flares.  Am I alone?  

(Question- this was written in a tone of consideration, question and asking for assistance.  Some one out there might well take it differently- who perceived it as a threat or in a condescending fashion?  And why?)

Thank you for “listening” to my rant, I really needed to get this off my chest.


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## Crothian (Jun 22, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <Rant> Where has courtesy gone?
> 
> Sense I was in my teens I have noticed the decline in thank yous, apologizes, excuse me, bless yous, pleases, and such.  Why has rudeness become so dominate?




I agree, common courtesy is no longer common and it is actually rare these days.  I don't get it.  And agree with you 100%.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 22, 2005)

It's surprising at just how fast politeness is disappearing from our culture. I know I was taught to be courteous to others. Using "please" and "thank you". Not to mention courtesy things like opening doors for people or holding them open until they can grab it... I do that for alot of people, male or female. People are just plain rude these days. They think being jerks will get them anywhere that niceness just won't. I'd rather be courteous to nice people than rude ones, who get a look.


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## Hand of Evil (Jun 22, 2005)

was just in a training class for work on motivating employees and this was one of the issues they pointed out missing from the work place!


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## barsoomcore (Jun 22, 2005)

I like to be polite. It's good. I try not to worry if other people are being polite -- that's their problem, not mine. I behave politely because I like to do so.


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## devilbat (Jun 22, 2005)

It's funny that this should come up.

You see, my dad has recently become an American citizen.  He's spent the last fifteen years in Minnesota, but was born and raised in Canada.  We often get in discussions about the differences, percieved and real, that we have between nations.  Where we always disagree is when it comes to manners.

He raised me to refer to elders as Mr. or Mrs.  Closer family friend elders were referred to as Uncle or Aunty, even if there was no actual relation.  We were taught to never grab, always say please, thank you AND You're Welcome.  Use "excuse me" when passing by, "pardon me" if interrupting, hold the door for elders and especially for women.  This was a hard and fast rule, as my father would never be labled as a gentle man.

Now, fifteen years later, he tells us that we Canadians are too caught up in manners, and that little things like that are not important.  His U.S based nieces and nephews all call him by his first name.  If I excuse myself around them, they think I've burped or farted.  If I hold a door for someone, they look at me like I'm going to rob them.

I laugh about it, but I prefer polite people to the impolite.


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## Rel (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> About 9 out of 10 calls the caller is kind and thanks me...




90% isn't too bad you know. 

Here is how I look at it:  I'm polite.  I'm pleasant.  I'm nice.  And once in a while I have to deal with somebody for maybe thirty seconds who is a rude, unpleasant jackass.  But it's usually no more than thirty seconds.

They, on the other hand, have to go around being themselves all day long.  When I think of how tough that must be, my contact with them seems pretty trivial.

Being a jerk all the time is a lot of work and it its own punishment.  Just keep on being polite and let those other folks be their own problem.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 23, 2005)

And it's annoying those who think people think they're old when they refer to them as "Sir" or "Ma'am"....  :\ I see it as being polite more than "HEY! You old fart!"


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## wingsandsword (Jun 23, 2005)

I think a lot of people interpret "sir" and "ma'am" as being old because they grew up calling older people that, and don't like having to face the idea they are that old now.

I still see a lot of courtesy, relatively, around me, but I live in Kentucky and lot of people around here still take some belief in "southern hospitality" (shades of the Info about States thread).  I still hold the door open for people often, and try to use "please" and "thank you", and be generally helpful and nice. I'll admit that I very rarely use "sir" or "ma'am" because it sounds too formal for everyday use and many people bristle at the excess formality and implications of seniority (I'll use it with somebody who is visibly quite elderly, but that's it).


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## the Jester (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <Rant> Where has courtesy gone?
> 
> Sense I was in my teens I have noticed the decline in thank yous, apologizes, excuse me, bless yous, pleases, and such.  Why has rudeness become so dominate?  Examples-
> 
> ...





Jerk.


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## the Jester (Jun 23, 2005)

But seriously...

I agree that courtesy seems to be waning, but I hope it will prove to be one of those cyclical things- that we're in a 'rude period' and that the pendulum will swing back.  I don't know if this is the case- it's merely a hope- but I have found that being polite and friendly makes me a happier, better person, so I do it as much for myself as for others.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 23, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I think a lot of people interpret "sir" and "ma'am" as being old because they grew up calling older people that, and don't like having to face the idea they are that old now.
> 
> I still see a lot of courtesy, relatively, around me, but I live in Kentucky and lot of people around here still take some belief in "southern hospitality" (shades of the Info about States thread).  I still hold the door open for people often, and try to use "please" and "thank you", and be generally helpful and nice. I'll admit that I very rarely use "sir" or "ma'am" because it sounds too formal for everyday use and many people bristle at the excess formality and implications of seniority (I'll use it with somebody who is visibly quite elderly, but that's it).




I have a friend who likes to hold the door open for women and have common courtesy. He's of the "dying breed": Southern Gentlemen. The only time I griped about him doing that was the time he had to really reach for the door and with his bad back, I was afraid of his back going out and him landing face first on the pavement... other than that, I don't mind a man opening the door for me (just as long as he's not in the risk of hurting himself in the process). 

And I usually use "sir" or "ma'am" to customers at work as respect, regardless of age. And the use of "please" and "thank you".


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## Aeson (Jun 23, 2005)

I'm a Jerk. I'm the guy in line at Taco Smell, I'm the teens at the mall, I call at midnight and blame you for it. 

Not really. I agree with you. I try to be nice to people  hoping it would rub off. It doesn't.


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## Andre (Jun 23, 2005)

Years ago I read a passage that sums up a lot of this (I'm paraphrasing): 

_People do not do good out of conscious thought. They do what they're used to. Therefore, if you want a virtuous society, teach good habits._

Courtesy, like so many things, is a habit. If we don't teach kids to be courteous (both with our words and our actions), then they won't be courteous. It may be too late with the current teenagers (and, to be honest, many my own age), but it's never too late to teach the next generation.

BTW, if anyone recognizes the quote above and can tell the name of the gentleman who said it, I'd appreciate the info. I believe he was an Englishman, a writer and/or philosopher, who lived in the late 19th or early 20th Centuries. I've been trying to find the original quote for years, but no luck.


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## EricNoah (Jun 23, 2005)

(Frankly I get a little tired of the old "kids today!" rant.  Every generation thinks the one before it is too stodgy and the one after it is too lax.  This is just in general, not necessarily about the original post in this thread.)

I interact with a couple hundred middle schoolers a day and they run the gammut from "whatever!" to "please-and-thank-you."  But you know what, so do the adults I run into, even ones older than me.  

If one of my students started with "sir" (to me) or "ma'am" (to my assistant), I'd be suspicious, frankly.  There's such a thing as "too polite" -- you've got to match it to the situation.  It's entirely possible that what you perceive as harmless or friendly or polite is being received as creepy or weird or mocking.  Your words could be saying one thing ("I'm being polite, see how polite I am?") while your facial expressions or tone of voice say something else ("I'm just waiting for you to fail to return my politeness and then I've got a reason to loathe you, you SOB").  Of course I'm not there, so I have no way of knowing.


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## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

As you say Eric its not a rant about generations, anyone can be rude at any age, I know that.  My examples are more directed at those that are younger then I am, which is oh, about half the population right now.    

I use Sir and Ma'am all the time, if the person is two or a hundred and two it doesn't matter.  When I know the persons name then I will use that, but until then its Sir or Ma'am.  Its not meant to get one over or kiss someone's less desirable areas, its a manner of respect.

Andre- I have seen a quote like that one, but I can't for the life of me remember even where or when.  

I did find these two- 
_“To do good without ulterior motive is a generous and almost divine thing in itself.”
- Francesco Guicciardini (1483-1540)

“An act is not good because we feel obliged to do it; it is rather that we feel obliged to do it because it is good.”
- Abraham Joshua Heschel (1907-1972)_


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 23, 2005)

I live in Utah, and common courtesy seems to still exist here.  Between work and school, I see a lot of people open doors for each other, smile and say "hello" even to strangers, use Please and Thank You in conversation, etc.

Except on the freeway.  Utah drivers are _notoriously_ pushy and aggressive. 

Still, even I sometimes have expiriences with people who react to common courtesy with hostility.  One of my more recent examples happened when, at the college I take classes at, I noticed a woman coming out of the bookstore who had a double armload full of books.  When I saw she was heading towards the door, I said "Here, let me get that for you" and held it open for her.  She glared at me like I'd just sprouted horns and a tail, then walked through the door without even thanking me.  Heck, I didn't even get a courtesy nod.  Oh well, maybe she was just having a really bad day... or maybe she was just plain a bitch. 

Also, I have a job where I take calls from all people over the United States, and I can second that "southern hospitality" definately isn't a myth.  Callers from the southern states, on average, seem to be much more polite and gracious than callers from most other parts of the US.


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## JRRNeiklot (Jun 23, 2005)

You guys should come to Alabama.  We all have guns, that kind of fosters a polite society.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <Rant> Where has courtesy gone?



Not out of me, apparently. As argumentative as I am these days -- even picking a fight on this messageboard with trolls -- I'm just too damn courteous when I go out. I usually let females and elders board the bus first and if I'm the first out of the rear doors, I hold them open.

I guess I'm one of the few that got spanked in their childhood that turned out okay as adults.


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## Jeff Wilder (Jun 23, 2005)

Several years ago I made a road trip with a guy and discovered just how rude he was.  Understand, at the time he and I both worked at a pizza joint.  Both of us were used to drunken rudeness.

So I was _shocked_ at how rude he was to folks along our trip ... even the people who were in similar jobs, like cashiers at fast-food restaurants, or servers in restaurants.  Wouldn't you think that he'd be courteous at least to those people?  I gave him quite a bit of hell about it, and he honestly didn't know what I was talking about.  It was like the people serving him were furniture, and how can you be rude to furniture?


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## Zander (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon,

I agree with you too.



			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> Now I am six foot plus, two hundred thirty pounds...



It's even worse when you're not built like a tank. :\


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## Zander (Jun 23, 2005)

devilbat said:
			
		

> [My dad] raised me to refer to elders as Mr. or Mrs.



Same here. I still address elders by their title and surname unless they invite me to do otherwise or it's clear from the situation that they are happy to be called by their given name.

I have to say, and maybe I'm just old fashioned, that it bugs me when strangers assume that it's OK to call me by my given name even when they know my title and surname. It presumes that we are equal or that I'm inferior which in certain situations isn't the case.


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## yennico (Jun 23, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I agree, common courtesy is no longer common and it is actually rare these days.  I don't get it.  And agree with you 100%.



Ditto


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## Spell (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Another thing is more personal in nature- why is it that I feel that I am being perceived in a negative fashion? My intent is one manner and perceived in the opposite.  Are my courtesies perceived in a negative fashion?  Are my thank yous taken as condescending?  My apologizes seen as half assed?  The word, please, when it leaves my lips do people take it in an unkind fashion?  Is that why I feel so many people are becoming rude and uncaring?  Is it that they perceive me as being rude and uncaring so they return the favor?




if that helps, you are not alone, in feeling that when you are courteous to somebody, they misunderstand you. i try to be nice with everybody, when i can, but i noticed that the majority (90%) of girls that i know try to avoid me, as if chatting and being polite and helpful means that i'm making moves on them. fortunately i do have "normal" female friends that understand that i'm just treating them as i treat my male friends, but sometimes it is quite upsetting or frustrating... also because i can't come out of the blue and tell them "you know, i'm not trying to date you" (the answer would be something like "good for you"...)

that said, i have met a lot of corteous people in newcastle. i wish i could say the same of people in my hometown in italy...


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## Spell (Jun 23, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> People are just plain rude these days. They think being jerks will get them anywhere that niceness just won't. I'd rather be courteous to nice people than rude ones, who get a look.




the funny thing is that the opposite is true... i have managed to have many special favours, through the years, just because i'm "that nice guy"... things i wouldn't have got if i was unpolite.
it is also true that sometimes people take advantage of niceness and politeness, though. :I


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## ZuulMoG (Jun 23, 2005)

See, my dad was born in '24, my mom in '30, me in '69.  I know how to be polite, because rudeness was driven far from me, along with foolishness, via the rod of correction.

It was a sad, sad day when Cpl. Punishment had his stripes taken away.


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## Darkness (Jun 23, 2005)

Spell said:
			
		

> the funny thing is that the opposite is true...



 Is _also_ true, to be exact. Jerks get their way rather often as well.

Personally, I'm polite unless circumstances necessitate otherwise (and sometimes technically even then - _technically_).


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## John Q. Mayhem (Jun 23, 2005)

I try to be polite. I can't stand people who are foolishly, constantly, aggresively rude. I guess Virginia isn't far enough South


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## Umbran (Jun 23, 2005)

I think it is pretty common to think the "good old days" were better than today, but usually they weren't.  It can be very difficult to distinguish between, "I notice this more these days" with, "This happens more these days."

There have been rude humans since we dropped out of the trees, if not before.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 23, 2005)

I understadn what you are saying Harmon, but I'm not sure that things are really that much different than 20 or 30 years ago.  One thing that happens many times is that people tend to noitce the things that upset them more than those that they expect.  I know in my town there is still a lot of common courtesy.  I see it all the time.  There are also people who are the jerks you are speaking of, but I don't think there really are more of them or they are more rude than they used to be.  

I know "kids these days" aren't really that much worse than when I was one of "those kids." On first glance it seems they _ must _ be worse, but when I take a step back and really look at what I was like at 17...  .

Would it be nice if more people were kinder to each other?  You bet.  But rather than getting upset about it, I really try to make a conscious effort to act as I would want others to act.  I try to be courteous and sincere.  I'll give up my seat on the T for an elderly person, or someone with kids, or just someone carrying a lot of things.  I get funny looks about it sometimes, but I like to think that maybe someone else might notice what I did and next time they will be willing to do it as well.


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## Storminator (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <Rant> Where has courtesy gone?




Courtesy has gone to the south. I'm constantly amazed at how much nicer folks are down there. 

I went to the closest Starbucks, and as I'm walking out the guys sweeping the floor looks up and says, "hey, thanks a lot. Have a good day now." So naturally I look down to see if I've just walked thru a dirt pile he's just swept up... nope. Just being nice.

Refreshing.

PS


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## Storminator (Jun 23, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> I know "kids these days" aren't really that much worse than when I was one of "those kids." On first glance it seems they _ must _ be worse, but when I take a step back and really look at what I was like at 17...  .




When I was 17 I was working construction. Talking at one of the company BBQs one of the older carpenters said, "you know any 2 year olds? Do you realize how much more you know than them? I'm 32 and I know that much more than you..."

At the time I thought he was crazy, but now that I'm in my 30s...

PS


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## EricNoah (Jun 23, 2005)

(On the "kids today" issue -- I have older teaching coleagues who swear that "today's kids" are 10x nicer and more pleasant than the tough breed of kid in the 70s.  "Kids today" have a lot to deal with, and by and large they're handling it pretty well.  Our society is not on the edge of ruin as far as I can see. )


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## Rel (Jun 23, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> (On the "kids today" issue -- I have older teaching coleagues who swear that "today's kids" are 10x nicer and more pleasant than the tough breed of kid in the 70s.  "Kids today" have a lot to deal with, and by and large they're handling it pretty well.  Our society is not on the edge of ruin as far as I can see. )




If, when I was that age, the girls in Jr. High and High School had dressed the way they do now, I'd have been a hell of a lot less surly as a teenager too.


Also, RE:  Southern Hospitality - I don't really think this is true.  Far too many yankees have moved down here to make the place that pleasant any more.

(I kid.   I kid because I love.)


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## Storminator (Jun 23, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Also, RE: Southern Hospitality - I don't really think this is true. Far too many yankees have moved down here to make the place that pleasant any more.
> 
> (I kid.   I kid because I love.)




They can only be assimilated so fast. 

We're not call Ms for nothing!

PS


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## ForceUser (Jun 23, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I agree, common courtesy is no longer common and it is actually rare these days.  I don't get it.  And agree with you 100%.



There's a professor at San Diego City College who has been known to say that she doesn't trust people who are polite, because she finds politeness to be disingenuous. Me, I was raised in the south, where your daddy pops you in the grill if you don't say "yes sir," "no sir," "please," and "thank you." I'm glad I learned common courtesy. I think it's very important to be respectful of people.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jun 23, 2005)

I wish wish wish my son would grasp the simplest concept of saying "thank you"  and the like when in public.  He's getting better...but it drives me nuts.  And I'm almost fanatic in my courtesy to others.


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## fett527 (Jun 23, 2005)

A few people have pointed out the "kids today" thing as being relative.  Please remember that Harmon was a making a complaint about "society" today, not just kids.  There were kids in his examples but he's not just complaining aobut "kids today".

I also agree with the observations.  I held the door open for a women pushing a man in a wheel chair a couple of days ago and they said NOTHING.  I was floored.  THANK YOU, PEOPLE, THANK YOU!


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## Xath (Jun 23, 2005)

I'm one of the younger generation, but my parents still managed to teach me common courtesy.  You don't need corporal punishment, you just need to appeal to the tendancies of the generation.

For example; being raised in a relatively high-speed society (mobile phones, email, fast food, microwave meals), I've developed an inner necessity for getting things done the fastest way possible.  I dislike unnecessary waiting, as I could better spend that time doing other things.

So to curb my fast talking, low politeness attitude, my mother would constantly correct me, and make me repeat what she said.  If I said "yeah," she'd say "yes," and I'd have to say "yes."  Same for please, thank you, you're welcome, ma'am, sir, excuse me, etc.  It got to the point, where it was more expedient for me to be polite, so I've become polite out of reflex.  

Verbal conditioning.  It works.

Note:  I have found to the contrary, that if you are too polite in retail, people become suspicious.  I actually had to curb my polite tendancies, or customers would give me the brush-off, thinking I was just trying to sweet talk them into a sale.


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## MrFilthyIke (Jun 23, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> I guess I'm one of the few that got spanked in their childhood that turned out okay as adults.




But we all know you liked it.


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## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

To me it’s not about the rude youths of today vs. the ones of yester year, its about rude people in general.  People not saying thank you, excuse me, please, etc, and or giving that look that is oh, so common around this area (if you have no idea what I mean the look is one where you feel your life is being threatened).

I know that I am more then likely complaining about a minority here.  Perhaps my experience with those more courtesy and kind is lacking because of the way I am perceived.  As I implied I feel that people perceive me (sometimes) in the negative while I am trying to be perceived in the positive.  Maybe they think I am really an inconsiderate jerk at first sight and think that when I am nice to them that I am trying to get one over on them?  It would be nice to be able to see myself as others do.  I have seen myself on video and it doesn’t come across that way- maybe it’s a vibe?  Hell I don’t know.

Another example of being rude- a couple years back I was coming home from San Jose air port where I had just dropped off my mom.  Sitting in snail slow traffic north of Morgan Hill for better then an hour I was pretty frustrated.  Traffic starts to pick up when I see the problem.  Parked on the other side of the road on the north bound side of the highway (on the fast lane side) there is a pregnant woman, her mini van has a flat, she had been trying to change the tire (but had given up), but she is very, very pregnant.  I pull over- on the fast lane side of the southbound, jump out, and jog up the embankment.  I introduce myself and ask a really stupid question- “do you need help?”

She’s been crying, she’s trying to be tough, cause this stranger is here and she’s frustrated, and scared.  I got her to sit down, returned to my truck for a water (which she looked to need), then worked on changing her tire.  She was very thankful, told me that she had been there for two hours and no one would stop to help her.  “You were here before traffic started backing up?” I asked (recalling the I had been here about two and a half hours before).  She nodded- “I am the reason it’s backed up.”

How many people could have stopped to help her?  How many women, kids, guys, were physically able to stop and help her in all that time?  I was no longer annoyed at the traffic, but rather the rubber neckers that just wanted to see the upset pregnant woman on the side of the road.  She gave me two payments for my kindness- a hug and a thank you, she was so happy she was crying.

Its hard for me to see that and not think of those people as being rude, but they weren’t they were just living their fast paced lives and they could not consider how their in action was effecting others.

Now something to consider- in todays world you can’t stop on the side of the road to help everyone, I know that.  Would I have stopped for a group of gang bangers?  No.  Is that rude of me?  Ya, but I have to consider my own safety and the lives of my family and friends (car jackers will take your registration, go to your home and….)

I will be as kind as I can for as long as I can.

Thank you for replying to my thread here, it makes me smile to know that I am not alone.


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## mojo1701 (Jun 23, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I'm one of the younger generation, but my parents still managed to teach me common courtesy.  You don't need corporal punishment, you just need to appeal to the tendancies of the generation.
> 
> For example; being raised in a relatively high-speed society (mobile phones, email, fast food, microwave meals), I've developed an inner necessity for getting things done the fastest way possible.  I dislike unnecessary waiting, as I could better spend that time doing other things.
> 
> ...




Same here, though it was, in addition to politeness, it was also Polish. And she still does it.



> Note:  I have found to the contrary, that if you are too polite in retail, people become suspicious.  I actually had to curb my polite tendancies, or customers would give me the brush-off, thinking I was just trying to sweet talk them into a sale.




I was at a Boston Pizza (my first and last time, so far, not that I'm going there again if I'm paying) and our waitress was a little TOO polite. She acted as if we were friends. Now, not that I'm against that, but I think it was a little too far when all I wanted was a personal pizza and a drink, and she said to me, "Are you sure?" I don't want to think what that implies. Maybe because I was (and still am, but I'm working on it) a fat kid, but other than that, it wasn't bad.


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## Hijinks (Jun 23, 2005)

About 2 weeks ago, I got home from work and decided to get some exercise by walking the couple of miles or so to the gas station to fill a gas can for my lawnmower.  I fully expected a kind stranger (or more than one) to stop and ask me, a woman walking alone with a gas can, whether I needed a ride.  Did anyone stop?  Not one person in 45 minutes of walking.  And this is Iowa - I thought _someone_ would stop.  I was disillusioned 



> Callers from the southern states, on average, seem to be much more polite and gracious than callers from most other parts of the US.




I used to work in customer service.  I dealt with a lot of folks from Mississippi.  From my personal experience, people from Mississippi are _not_ friendly and polite.  What's with the "hah?!?" that they say instead of "excuse me?" or "I beg your pardon?"  And the "wayamin" that they repeat over and over again instead of "please wait a moment" or "give me a moment please."  Ugh.  So glad I don't work there any more.


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## Rel (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Its hard for me to see that and not think of those people as being rude...




I know it is tough, but I think you would probably be a lot happier if you adjusted your outlook such that you focus more on the pride and enjoyment you get from helping others and less on the fact that other people don't always help one another.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 23, 2005)

Zander said:
			
		

> I have to say, and maybe I'm just old fashioned, that it bugs me when strangers assume that it's OK to call me by my given name even when they know my title and surname. It presumes that we are equal or that I'm inferior which in certain situations isn't the case.





Or you introduce yourself as "James" and then get immediately, "Jim". That pissed a friend of mine off. He has NEVER gone by "Jim" nor been CALLED "Jim" except by morons who think it's a more "friendlier, relaxed" way of addressing him... despite his introduction as "James"....  :\


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## EricNoah (Jun 23, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> About 2 weeks ago, I got home from work and decided to get some exercise by walking the couple of miles or so to the gas station to fill a gas can for my lawnmower.  I fully expected a kind stranger (or more than one) to stop and ask me, a woman walking alone with a gas can, whether I needed a ride.  Did anyone stop?  Not one person in 45 minutes of walking.  And this is Iowa - I thought _someone_ would stop.  I was disillusioned




That's because "kids today" have been taught to avoid strangers because they're most likely axe-wielding psycho killers!


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 23, 2005)

MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> But we all know you liked it.





I just know _someone_ was gonna go there....


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## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I know it is tough, but I think you would probably be a lot happier if you adjusted your outlook such that you focus more on the pride and enjoyment you get from helping others and less on the fact that other people don't always help one another.




Rel, you are more then likely right- hell, more then likely?  I think you are right.  

I guess the hope that everyone gives blood every two months is a bit much, that people could smile, be polite and considerate to one another, to treat people how they themselves want to be treated, to say please, and thank you- I guess its just a bit much to ask.    

You are quite right- I should stop expecting people to be courtesy and just hope that they can be, that they see the goodness in being kind, that they see it has its own rewards.  That should be enough.

Thanks.


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## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> That's because "kids today" have been taught to avoid strangers because they're most likely axe-wielding psycho killers!




You mean they might not be?


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## diaglo (Jun 23, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Not out of me, apparently. As argumentative as I am these days -- even picking a fight on this messageboard with trolls -- I'm just too damn courteous when I go out. I usually let females and elders board the bus first and if I'm the first out of the rear doors, I hold them open.
> 
> I guess I'm one of the few that got spanked in their childhood that turned out okay as adults.



you'd better open that door for me...i'm not too old to whoop your .... 


where's my cane?


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 23, 2005)

Talking about _ too _ polite reminded me of a time I went to restaurant with my brother-in-law and his wife in the White Mountains.  The waitress was way beyond polite and into obnoxious.  After each individual thing we ordered she said "Thank you."  

I'll have the cheddar burger...
Thank you
...and a side of fries...
Thank you
...and a coke...
Thank you
...and a glass of water...
Thank you

Didn't help that she completely messed up our order, either.

Harmon's encounter with the pregnant woman blows me away.  That is just crazy.  Hijinks' gas incident I can understand a _ little _ better.  I think some people figure, "she would probably say no to my help since she wouldn't want to get into the car with a stanger, so I won't bother stopping."

I wonder if the main reason for it all is because everyone is so often in such a hurry.  Of course I guess I have also noticed that many people avoid interacting with people they don't know.  How many people avoid your eyes, look down or away, as you are walking past them so that they don't feel as if they have to say hello.


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## Rel (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> I guess the hope that everyone gives blood every two months is a bit much, that people could smile, be polite and considerate to one another, to treat people how they themselves want to be treated, to say please, and thank you- I guess its just a bit much to ask.




It isn't too much to ask.  Just don't ask all the time and with anger and accusation in your voice.  Instead follow your heart, help people where you can and lead by example.  Even if nobody else ever follows your example you'll still have helped some folks out who really needed it.

That is no small thing.

I hadn't really thought about it until this moment but I've got a friendly little device that you might want to try out sometime.  I call it my "Faith In Humanity Bungee Cord".  It works like this:

I drive a pickup truck and for the past two months or so, I've had a green bungee cord sitting in the bed.  Anybody who walked past my truck in any of the hundreds of places it has been parked during that time could easily have reached over and stolen my bungee cord.  But they haven't.

Does this really reveal all that much about the nature of humanity?  Sure it does.  It proves that the vast majority of humanity (in North Carolina anyway) are not a bunch of bungee-cord-stealing scum.

I sleep better at night knowing that, don't you? 

The Faith In Humanity Bungee Cord - Buy yours today!  They're cheap and come in a variety of colors to match the color of any vehicle!


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## diaglo (Jun 23, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> It isn't too much to ask.  Just don't ask all the time and with anger and accusation in your voice.  Instead follow your heart, help people where you can and lead by example.  Even if nobody else ever follows your example you'll still have helped some folks out who really needed it.
> 
> That is no small thing.



no good deed goes unpunished nor unfinished


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## Rel (Jun 23, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> no good deed goes unpunished nor unfinished




Well yeah, but at least then you've earned the right to bitch.


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## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I drive a pickup truck and for the past two months or so, I've had a green bungee cord sitting in the bed.  Anybody who walked past my truck in any of the hundreds of places it has been parked during that time could easily have reached over and stolen my bungee cord.  But they haven't.
> 
> Does this really reveal all that much about the nature of humanity?  Sure it does.  It proves that the vast majority of humanity (in North Carolina anyway) are not a bunch of bungee-cord-stealing scum.
> 
> I sleep better at night knowing that, don't you?




No kidding about this-

My first truck I had to buy in a hurry, there was no time to save up, so all my extra coin went into it and I didn't buy a tool box for the first six months or so.  The extra cab had my not so often used tools in it, my bucket oh tools and bags went into the back.  A bungee held the bucket from sliding around.  I had to take my bungee out of the back of my truck every night and any time I went anywhere.  Not because I am paranoid did I have to do this- but rather because the first week I was down three bungees.  The first one disappeared at my home over night, the next two at other places.  Once ina while I would forget, and about 50% of the time I would need to get another bungee.  

When I bought my house I got a garage, so that saved on bungees.

California has one of the largest econmies in the world, you would think people would not need to steal bungees, but I guess they are trying to replace the one they lost.    

Its funny you should mention that. 

Oh, and never leave a flat tire in the back of your truck in Carmel (richest area of Monterey County).


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## Banshee16 (Jun 23, 2005)

I agree as well.  Unfortunately, I personally find that manners are not being taught to kids these days.  My hometown, which is a nice, rural suburb, is even having immense problems with things like vandalism, theft etc. which never used to occur.  But increasingly lately, there are 14 and 15 year olds out on the street at 2 am, drinking, yelling, and being a pain.  Everyone is scared to say anything, because of fear of having their own homes vandalised.

I was at my girlfriend's baseball game, and had driven to watch.  A schoolbus drives up, and parks in the lot, and a busload of teens get out.  Apparently on their way to some excursion.  They've got beer etc. start talking, leaning against the cars that are parked there by the people at the baseball game, etc.  Understandably, some of the people got concerned their cars would get scratched.  One guy went to move his car, and the kids had beer cans sitting on his bumper.  He asked them to move, and more just came and stood behind his car, until he literally had to push them out of the way with his bumper so they'd get out of his way......

I watch bad manners on a daily basis....

I was in Montreal at the Grand Prix etc. the other week, and rode on the subway.  I'm never on the subway, as I have a car, and driver wherever I need.  In any case, the subway was busy, and there were few seats.  I happened to have one, and the subway stopped, and more people got on, including a young woman.  I got up and offered my seat.  She didn't even react....just went and found her own.  I was told afterwards that people just don't do that (ie. get up to offer their seats to someone else).  Nothing improper was intended by my offer.  I was leaving the city, already have a girlfriend and was not trying to flirt.  But I think she had some bags, whereas I didn't, so I figured it would be polite to let her sit down.

Of course, when I was in University, some of the women I know used to get really upset when guys tried to show manners...pulling out a chair, opening a door, paying the tab if you're out for coffee etc. because it was oonsidered "sexist".  Then other women get upset if you don't do it.

Other things...drivers...my city has the worst drivers I've ever seen.  Residential neighbourhood, and people are driving like they're in a race.  I was working in the yard, and heard someone shouting.  Looked up, and a block away at the intersection, there's a car turning from the main road onto our road.  She's going slow....appears to be a mother with child in the front seat.  The car behind has the guy leaning out his window yelling at her to hurry up, slamming on the horn, etc.  Finally, as soon as he's got a bit of space, he squeezes between her and the median, passes her through the opposing lane of traffic on the residential street, and goes racing up the road...must have been doing 80 in the 40 zone.

Or, what's with the whole idea of asking people to do something....like ie. a BBQ, and then nobody responds...everyone is busy discussing amongst each other to find out what their "best plan" is for that afternoon.  Then they basically let you know at the last minute, even though you gave them 2 weeks notice?

Or worse, someone agreeing to do something, and then their plans change....something comes up.  But instead of telling you that unfortunately they can't make it, they avoid your phone calls, since they know they can't make it?  Well, friggin' tell me you can't make it.  Then I don't have to spend 3 hours sitting here wondering what's going on, and where you are!

Manners are definitely in short supply, IMO.  It's really depressing, actually.

Banshee


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## Henry (Jun 23, 2005)

> Oh, and never leave a flat tire in the back of your truck in Carmel (richest area of Monterey County).




The better thieves go to richer areas to steal things. 

As for the diminishment of polite society: Whether it's my perception or not, I've noticed it, also, more so around complete strangers. I believe that part of it comes from increasing population, but more from societal changes in the last 100 years -- As western society becomes more civilized, it has also found the cultural room to become less courteous. To quote Robert E. Howard:



> Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing. -Robert E. Howard's Conan


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## fanboy2000 (Jun 23, 2005)

> There's a professor at San Diego City College who has been known to say that she doesn't trust people who are polite, because she finds politeness to be disingenuous.



This makes me angrier than anything Harmon's posted. This woman obviously believes politeness is just the niceties of formal conversation, or protocol. The only way she would be able to get through the day is by other people being polite. Can you imagine if, every time she asked someone a simple question she didn't get an answer, she got told "eff you?"

Thouse who say "respect your elders" but don't respect their youngers exaborate the problem. The only kind of politeness they seem to be interested in is the kind that's directed twords them. Ugh. It's like they think that age has given them the right to be rude, but you better not be rude to them, no sir, because thier old. 

I've also noticed a tendancy for adults to teach childern manners as something you do for older people, not for your peers or your youngers.



			
				Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And usually use "sir" or "ma'am" to customers at work as respect, regardless of age.



I'm the same way. I used to work at a Game Keeper and we held a Pokemon league on the weekends. It was a small store and I often had to say "excuse me sir" to children and young teens. The effect this had was amazing. Far from getting rude responces and blank stares, most everyone simply let me pass. I thanked them and continued on.  I've interacted with a lot of children and teenagers because of the pokemon craze and most of them respond well to common courtisy.

I did have a few problems with the adults, but not offten. Usually it was because they didn't understand pokemon cards, the game, or anything else about the phenomena.


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## fett527 (Jun 23, 2005)

Henry said:
			
		

> The better thieves go to richer areas to steal things.
> 
> As for the diminishment of polite society: Whether it's my perception or not, I've noticed it, also, more so around complete strangers. I believe that part of it comes from increasing population, but more from societal changes in the last 100 years -- As western society becomes more civilized, it has also found the cultural room to become less courteous. To quote Robert E. Howard:




Best quote of this thread.


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## Finster (Jun 23, 2005)

Unfortunately I find that people are rude in general, have been rude for some time, and will most likely continue to be rude for the forseeable future. At one time it was my own personal crusade to bring courtesy to the masses through example. No more wasting my time with that pipe dream.*

Just let it roll off your back, and find solace in the fact that you will, every once in a while, be treated with the respect and courtesy that you extend to others. Continue to use etiquette and say please and thank you when appropriate. The last thing we need is a convert to the 'dark side'.

* I also had a crusade against the use of the "word" Nuke-Yuh-Ler. We can all see how that went No more crusades for me.


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## Desdichado (Jun 23, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> (On the "kids today" issue -- I have older teaching coleagues who swear that "today's kids" are 10x nicer and more pleasant than the tough breed of kid in the 70s.  "Kids today" have a lot to deal with, and by and large they're handling it pretty well.  Our society is not on the edge of ruin as far as I can see. )



_*Open your eyes, you blind fool!*_


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## nothing to see here (Jun 23, 2005)

Maybe it's just me, but I find this whole topic incredibly ironic, considering it's on an Internet Message Boards...one of the most unregulated...incendiary, strident and rude forms of communication in the world (though ENworld is far more courteous than most).

Heck, rudeness is so common on Message Boards people even came up with new terms (flaming, trolling etc) just to handle them.

When people feel hyper-empowered, they do so at the expense of erosion their sense of obligation to others.  It's Basic communications theory.

Of course, it could be that I'm just way too sensitive to irony.


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## billd91 (Jun 23, 2005)

There are probably plenty of studies on courtesy that you can find conducted by sociologists that might help answer why things are the way they are. 
I think urbanization and population density has a little do with it. In crowded areas, you have to erect your personal defenses (physical and psychological) a bit more strongly (even draconianly) than you do in smaller communities. I've usually found smaller communities thus tend to have more helpful and polite people. 

I also think that social expectations and training are involved as well. I have to say that, for the most part, around here the most courteous people are the older men and some of the least are middle-aged and older women. And I think that's because of how they were expected to behave in society as they grew up. Men were expected to be courteous and women were expected to be the recipients of that courtesy. I noticed this more than once when pushing around a stroller or hauling a load of boxes down the sidewalk. Older men would get out of my way or hold doors. Older women would not, in fact, they'd often expect me to get out of their way or just bull their way past me. I was really surprised when that happened when I was pushing my baby in the stroller. Of course, there were exceptions to both, but I'm talking about the general experiences I've had.
In my experience, younger people, educated after the 1970s, might be courteous or not regardless of sex. I haven't noticed a real bias... other than clueless pre-adolescent children in general who have the observational powers of a pet rock.


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## Odysseus (Jun 23, 2005)

How often do you see people in a hurry, but with no where go!
I think the entropy of the polite society doesn't lie with a new generation, but with everybody.
Everybody is too much of a hurry to give other people a thought, let alone a polite word.

As to stopping to help people. When I moved to the states, from england. I got given a cultural guide to the states. Included in it we're warnings about stoping at apparent accidents, that could be set-ups for robbery.


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## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

fanboy2000 said:
			
		

> This makes me angrier than anything Harmon's posted.




My apologizes.  I know I have been quite an ass in the past.  Try as I might I will continue to piss people off, I can't help that.    

Writing on the boards or in email is really a bad way to communicate.  I feel its cost me a lot more then if I had used the phone or in person.  

Take care, Fanboy, hope our experiences together are a little more harmous and kind in the future.


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## Rel (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> My apologizes.  I know I have been quite an ass in the past.  Try as I might I will continue to piss people off, I can't help that.
> 
> Writing on the boards or in email is really a bad way to communicate.  I feel its cost me a lot more then if I had used the phone or in person.
> 
> Take care, Fanboy, hope our experiences together are a little more harmous and kind in the future.




Unless I'm misinterpreting things, he wasn't angry at YOU but at the situations you mentioned (i.e. nobody stopping to help the pregnant lady).


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## fanboy2000 (Jun 23, 2005)

I apologize. I should have posted "This makes me angrier than any example of rudeness Harmon's posted in this thread." It makes me angry because she's encouraging the kind of behavior that you have experienced, while taking advantage of the politeness she's received.


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## Wystan (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon, I do not think his anger is directed at you, but at the stereotypes and people types you discuss. The thing that has him angrier is the person who states that politeness can be disingenous.


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## Desdichado (Jun 23, 2005)

nothing to see here said:
			
		

> Heck, rudeness is so common on Message Boards people even came up with new terms (flaming, trolling etc) just to handle them.
> 
> When people feel hyper-empowered, they do so at the expense of erosion their sense of obligation to others.  It's Basic communications theory.



I've occasionally wondered if the prevalence of online forums of communication hasn't heightened rudeness amongst people at large.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jun 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I've occasionally wondered if the prevalence of online forums of communication hasn't heightened rudeness amongst people at large.




My communications skills have certainly suffered. 

You can't really have a conversation on the internet.  You don't talk _to_ people, you talk _at_ them.  There's also the prediliction for jumping into a conversation and burbling whatever pops into your head. Or just starting a "new topic" whenever you feel like discussing something.  Those habits have carried over into my real life conversation habits and I need to change that.


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## MaxKaladin (Jun 23, 2005)

I think urbanization has a lot to do with it.  

When you live in a rural area, chances are you know the people you bump into and you're going to see them again.  When you live in a city, you generally don't know any of the people around you and will probably not ever see them again.  I think that has a lot to do with it.  I think people are just more polite to people they know and see every day than strangers.  

If you're a rude and obnoxious kid in a small town, chances are that's going to get back to your parents and you'll get an "attitude adjustment" of whatever kind your family prefers to use.  In a city, chances are nobody knows who you are or who your parents are and you can be rude and obnoxious with relative impunity.  It's sorta like trolls and flamers on the internet, they know nobody knows who they are or where to find them so they feel free to be as horrible as possible.  Freedom from consequences and all that.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 23, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> you'd better open that door for me...i'm not too old to whoop your ....




::slams the door in diaglo's face::




> where's my cane?




::runs away with diaglo's cane::

 



Actually, I'm alot more considerate than that... I try to look out for, mostly, my friends... I had to help one get back onto his internet account. And he was grateful beyond words. He said that he couldn't thank me enough. That's what friends are for!   And the fact that we were trying to get him to move here in a spare room (if Mom had been willing to move some of her books outta there...) to get him away from his stressful family.


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## barsoomcore (Jun 23, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> My communications skills have certainly suffered.



What?



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> There have been rude humans since we dropped out of the trees, if not before.



Somebody drops you out of tree, see how polite YOU are.

Note how when somebody says, "Why is everyone else so rude," everyone else immediately says, "Yeah, why is that?" I guess we're all on the side of Good, over here.


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## Simplicity (Jun 23, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <Rant>
> Sense I was in my teens I have noticed the decline in thank yous, apologizes, excuse me, bless yous, pleases, and such.  Why has rudeness become so dominate?




Eric Noah is right.  Nostalgia is a dangerous thing.  People tend to view their childhoods and hence the time before then with rose-colored glasses.



> At the soda machine in Taco Smell the other day- a young man ahead of me fills his soda.  He stands his position at the machine after his cup is full, grabs a lid two feet away (there is a counter in front of the lids), places it on top of his soda- “excuse me,” I gesture to the machine with my empty cup, as he looks at me.  It’s a glare I receive and a “you can wait,” type comment with an unkind curse in the comment.  He takes a straw, preps it and places it in his soda then turns to look at me.




Actually, in this situation, I believe that *you* were being the rude one.  Saying "please," "thank you," and "excuse me" doesn't make you polite.  Patiently waiting for the young man to finish putting the straw in his cup is the polite thing to do, not saying "excuse me" and trying to get past him.  His response to your "excuse me" was him teaching you manners.  Your response to his glare was you teaching him manners.
This response to your thread is me teaching you manners.

You, him, and I are all a bunch of jerks.  



> Another thing is more personal in nature- why is it that I feel that I am being perceived in a negative fashion? My intent is one manner and perceived in the opposite.  Are my courtesies perceived in a negative fashion?  Are my thank yous taken as condescending?  My apologizes seen as half assed?  The word, please, when it leaves my lips do people take it in an unkind fashion?  Is that why I feel so many people are becoming rude and uncaring?  Is it that they perceive me as being rude and uncaring so they return the favor?




Excuse me while I progress into full-blown jerkhood:

Perhaps because you seem to be missing the point of politeness.
Polite words like "please", "thank you", and "excuse me" and appelations 
like "sir" or "ma'am" are meant to show respect to others.  From your 
post, it seems to me that you don't feel any such respect for those you
say these words to.  In that case, the words start to sound very hollow.

Corporate culture has gone a long way to burying a lot of these words.
Ever hear someone sincerely say, "Thank you for shopping at ...."  It's
kind of off-putting when you actually do.  Telemarketers love to call you
"sir" or "ma'am".   "Excuse me" can be a very polite way of saying 
"Get the hell out of my way" or "Give me what I want".  "Sir" and "ma'am" 
are very nearly insults for the same reason.

My guess is that people are rude to you because you either are insincere about
this politeness or you are just coming off that way.  If it's the later, I would recommend 
being more conversational, so it doesn't sound as forced.  "Mind if I...?"  is good.  
"Thanks" is good.  "Go f- yourself" is optional.


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## Ranger REG (Jun 23, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> you'd better open that door for me...i'm not too old to whoop your ....
> 
> where's my cane?



Sorry, old man, but when it comes to you, I leave my courtesy and etiquette outside.


----------



## Ranger REG (Jun 23, 2005)

MrFilthyIke said:
			
		

> But we all know you liked it.



Actually, I don't.


----------



## nothing to see here (Jun 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I've occasionally wondered if the prevalence of online forums of communication hasn't heightened rudeness amongst people at large.




It isn't the only source of the problem, but it is part of the problem.

Thanks to new communications personal efficacy is at an all time high (what I call hyper-empowerment).  At the same time...by lowering accesiblity barriers people's deference to traditional institutions and authority (and, as a consequence, each other) is at an all time low.  Finally in online communications you learn to be divorced from the consequences of what you do...so accountability culture declines.

that's my take anyway...remember...when it comes to how easy it is to 'say' something rude... interpersonal < letters  < telephone  < e-mail  < message boards


----------



## Einan (Jun 23, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> I live in Utah, and common courtesy seems to still exist here. Between work and school, I see a lot of people open doors for each other, smile and say "hello" even to strangers, use Please and Thank You in conversation, etc.




Utah is a bit odd in that way.  I was in Salt Lake City a few years back and it was so clean I kept watching for cameras.  I guess the Mormons have the whole place locked down pretty tight.


----------



## Einan (Jun 23, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> About 2 weeks ago, I got home from work and decided to get some exercise by walking the couple of miles or so to the gas station to fill a gas can for my lawnmower. I fully expected a kind stranger (or more than one) to stop and ask me, a woman walking alone with a gas can, whether I needed a ride. Did anyone stop? Not one person in 45 minutes of walking. And this is Iowa - I thought _someone_ would stop.  I was disillusioned .




That was you?!?  I didn't stop becuase you weren't the proper size to fit the pit I've been constructing in my basement...

It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again.


----------



## kyloss (Jun 23, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> I think urbanization has a lot to do with it.
> 
> When you live in a rural area, chances are you know the people you bump into and you're going to see them again. When you live in a city, you generally don't know any of the people around you and will probably not ever see them again. I think that has a lot to do with it. I think people are just more polite to people they know and see every day than strangers.
> 
> If you're a rude and obnoxious kid in a small town, chances are that's going to get back to your parents and you'll get an "attitude adjustment" of whatever kind your family prefers to use. In a city, chances are nobody knows who you are or who your parents are and you can be rude and obnoxious with relative impunity. It's sorta like trolls and flamers on the internet, they know nobody knows who they are or where to find them so they feel free to be as horrible as possible. Freedom from consequences and all that.




I've seen some studies relating to this even some done on monkeys in I believe a japanese park, they normaly live in troupes of 20-30 somitimes up to 100 but in the park their are thousands of them due to the abundance of food, and just because they cant process all of those relationships they change their behavior focus on looking down, not making eye contact and limit their relation ships to much smaller groups-15-30 in size very much like people.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jun 23, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> It isn't too much to ask.  Just don't ask all the time and with anger and accusation in your voice.  Instead follow your heart, help people where you can and lead by example.  Even if nobody else ever follows your example you'll still have helped some folks out who really needed it.
> 
> That is no small thing.
> 
> ...




Or it simply means that at the time they were passing your truck, they didn't need a bungee cord.

On the other hand, living up here in Canada, I had an extension cord on my front porch, that I used at night to heat the engine of my car, so that when I had to drive to work in the morning, when it had been -40 celcius overnight, the car would actually start.

Of course, figuring that nobody would steal off my porch, I didn't always bring it inside when I left for work in the mornings.  And, what do you know....somebody stole it this last winter.

Call me naive, but generally, I would expect not to have to worry about somebody coming onto my property and taking something that doesn't belong to them.

But then, I'd also expect that people wouldn't damage my house either, unless I'd done something to them, yet just last weekend, some kids came onto my property and poured tartar sauce or something all over our porch, smeared it on our windows, all over my girlfriend's car, and our front door.  And that stuff stains.  She'd just bought this nice little house thing which was sitting on the front porch, with a "welcome to our home" sign, and that's now been permanently stained.  So, the kids had their 4 minutes of jollies, and we're out the money it takes to fix the damage.

Just a few weeks ago, a guy called my girlfriend by a certain derogatory word used for the female anatomy...while I was right beside her.  Is that necessary?  No matter a person's justification, I was always taught that there are some things you just don't do.  I supposed I could have picked a fight and punched him or something, but then I'm stooping to even below his level.

I don't have a lot of faith in humanity these days.

Banshee


----------



## Hijinks (Jun 23, 2005)

It's the mob mentality.  The larger the group of people a person is in, the more likely he/she is throw out his/her own morals and go along with the group.  So, kids living in a larger city would meet more kids behaving badly than would kids in a more rural setting, and so the urban kids learn earlier how to be naughty.

On the subject of rudeness, there's a man at my office in a wheelchar.  If I could make a wish and he could get up and walk around like anyone else, I would; no one deserves to be in a wheelchair.  That said, today I held the door for him and he whizzed on by without a word.  He is also known to run people down in the narrow walkways because he's late for a meeting or whatnot.  What's the most irritating is that I don't feel I could say something like "You're welcome!" to him (facetiously) after he whizzed out the door I was holding, like I might if it were a walking person, because I would feel bad for picking on a handicapped individual.  And yet I don't feel I can *not* hold the door open for him, because he *is* handicapped.  It's a rather annoying situation all around.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jun 23, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> My communications skills have certainly suffered.
> 
> You can't really have a conversation on the internet.  You don't talk _to_ people, you talk _at_ them.  There's also the prediliction for jumping into a conversation and burbling whatever pops into your head. Or just starting a "new topic" whenever you feel like discussing something.  Those habits have carried over into my real life conversation habits and I need to change that.




I think that it's so easy to be rude on the Internet for a few reasons...

ie. lack of accountability.  You don't have to look someone in the face when you insult them, so it's easy.

Combine that with the fact that like 90% of communication has nothing to do with the words we're saying, but instead lies with things like body posture and tone, and we're all only passing 10% of what we're trying to say to each other, and then wondering why people get offended.

Banshee


----------



## Desdichado (Jun 23, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I think that it's so easy to be rude on the Internet for a few reasons...



It is, isn't it?  Eff you, Internet!  Wipe this!


----------



## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

Wystan said:
			
		

> Harmon, I do not think his anger is directed at you, but at the stereotypes and people types you discuss. The thing that has him angrier is the person who states that politeness can be disingenous.




I caught that, though his post does seem to me like he (fanboy) is upset with something I have written.  What it was I wasn't sure <shrug> I have seemingly done my "best" to piss people off in the past.  I was making an apology so that there would be no hard feelings.

Its my belief that when you have wronged someone in their eyes, apologize first, figure out the whats and why fores later, then if they deserved the "pissing off" you can do it again or let matters lie where they are.

I feel no anger towards anyone here, so.... why not clear things up with an apology.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jun 23, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> It's the mob mentality.  The larger the group of people a person is in, the more likely he/she is throw out his/her own morals and go along with the group.  So, kids living in a larger city would meet more kids behaving badly than would kids in a more rural setting, and so the urban kids learn earlier how to be naughty.
> 
> On the subject of rudeness, there's a man at my office in a wheelchar.  If I could make a wish and he could get up and walk around like anyone else, I would; no one deserves to be in a wheelchair.  That said, today I held the door for him and he whizzed on by without a word.  He is also known to run people down in the narrow walkways because he's late for a meeting or whatnot.  What's the most irritating is that I don't feel I could say something like "You're welcome!" to him (facetiously) after he whizzed out the door I was holding, like I might if it were a walking person, because I would feel bad for picking on a handicapped individual.  And yet I don't feel I can *not* hold the door open for him, because he *is* handicapped.  It's a rather annoying situation all around.




Well, you could always steal Rel's bungee cord, use it to attach the guy's wheelchair to the door next time you let him through, and enjoy the show 

Banshee


----------



## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I've occasionally wondered if the prevalence of online forums of communication hasn't heightened rudeness amongst people at large.




Perception of what I say is so often taken in the negitive, in forums like this my perceived rudeness factor jumps a thousand percent.  So I completely agree with you.


----------



## Harmon (Jun 23, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> On the subject of rudeness, there's a man at my office in a wheelchar.  If I could make a wish and he could get up and walk around like anyone else, I would; no one deserves to be in a wheelchair.  That said, today I held the door for him and he whizzed on by without a word.  He is also known to run people down in the narrow walkways because he's late for a meeting or whatnot.  What's the most irritating is that I don't feel I could say something like "You're welcome!" to him (facetiously) after he whizzed out the door I was holding, like I might if it were a walking person, because I would feel bad for picking on a handicapped individual.  And yet I don't feel I can *not* hold the door open for him, because he *is* handicapped.  It's a rather annoying situation all around.




Treat him how you would treat anyone.  A wheelchair is no reason to be rude.  Next time he tries to run you down say something- talk to your boss, let him know its a dangerous game he is playing.  You do not have to hold the door, though it does make you a better person then he- say "Thank you, Hijinks.  You are very welcome.  How is your day going?  Very well thank you," and smile when he looks at you "sorry, just imagining the conversation we could have had."

It might be a little rude, but it might help him to understand that you are perceiving him as being rude; he might not understand what he is doing is rude.

Maybe that is a lot of it- people that are rude might not know they are being perceived that way.  Maybe the guy thinks you should open the door for him because he's in a wheel chair?

If you know him then ask him.


----------



## Hijinks (Jun 23, 2005)

I don't think I agree that the Internet and chat forums such as this are contributing overall to the rudeness in society. As an example of my opinion, I find that more often than not, the men that do not hold the door for me (and I don't expect men to hold the door for me because I'm a woman, but rather because I'm a human being coming up behind them or coming up as they're going out), are older men, in their 40's and 50's. For some reason, men of this age do not hold the door for me, or any other woman. I'm not sure why, I would expect men of this age - my father's age - to be gentlemanly, but they don't seem to be in my area anyway.

Also, the people I've noticed who tend to not hold doors are not the type that I think are surfing forums and doing other things that people like us do. I personally surf a lot of forums; some I post on, others I don't. It's easy to assume everyone else does too, but my parents and other relatives hardly ever use the internet; people I know have families and consider themselves too busy. Not everyone surfs the net all the time like me.

I think that, overall, Americans tend to be ruder than other nationalities. I don't say this to disparage Americans in any way; I am one and I'm very patriotic. However, I have noticed a tendency in the last 10 years or so that I've been back in the states, that Americans are me-me-me; we're always in a rush; most of us DEFINITELY don't like to be told "no," or that we can't do something right when we want to do it. We don't want to diet and exercise to lose weight because that requires effort and takes too long, even if it took 12 years to put the weight on; we want it sucked out RIGHT NOW. I think the rudeness we see in folks of all ages these days is in a large part due to impatience.

Why do we think that our children need to do soccer practice, piano lessons, have an after-school job, AND do chores around the house?  Why do we always fill our weekends with so many errands and things to do?  Very few people tend to take time off to just stop, take a breath, hang out.  Everyone's in so much of a rush.  Me, personally, I usually spend Sundays hanging out, napping, maybe playing some games; I don't, however, have a family and can afford the luxury of relaxation.  I don't know if this makes me more polite because I'm not always in a rush to do things, but I think I would probably be less polite if I had less time to spare.

The only thing I blame for rudeness is the American societal mindset that we always have to be go-go-go, have something going on, be doing something new, etc.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Jun 23, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Also, RE:  Southern Hospitality - I don't really think this is true.  Far too many yankees have moved down here to make the place that pleasant any more.
> 
> (I kid.   I kid because I love.)





Bah, North Carolina ain't south.  Damn yankee.


----------



## BlackSilver (Jun 23, 2005)

You have my vote Hijinks.  I agree.

Recent events placed me in the position of using crutches and most recently a cane.  I am not very big (5’4” and just over a 110 pounds), more often then not people would see me coming and hold the door for me.  Saying thank you was a must (for me), and everyone I spoke to smiled or said something in kind.

We are in a hurry, the citizens of this nation (USA), its because we are chasing something that we can never catch enough of (the all mighty dollar).  It’s a pretty lame excuse, but it is the truth (at least in my mind).  Those that live their lives happily- for whatever reason (being in love, enjoying what life has dealt them or what have you), tend to be much more polite and kind (in my experience).  

Something I do not recall reading in this thread is simply this- smile at people, nod to them when you can’t say hello, say hello to them as you walk past.  Only a few times have I regretted saying something to someone (guys looking for a little action seem to think the word “hello,” also means “take me to your bed.”)

We are in a position to change our world, be as kind as you can be and the person that you want to be and not the person that people perceive you to be by your outward appearance.

To those of you that give blood (Harmon mentioned it)- thank you.  I received some this last year, without donators I might not have made it or perhaps I would have and it just would have taken me longer to recover.  If you have never given blood it only hurts a little and they give you cake afterwards or cookies. 

Harmon, I am doing better, thank you for asking.  I am sorry about your friend, it’s a sad thing when a friendship dissolves, leave your heart open and maybe….


----------



## Dakkareth (Jun 24, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <Rant> Where has courtesy gone?




And the end of the world is near!


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Jun 24, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> <Rant> Where has courtesy gone?



Out the window I guess.


----------



## Aeolius (Jun 24, 2005)

Can I add a rant here, about the brainless idiots who park illegally in handicap-designated parking spaces? (This means you too, Mr. motorcycle parking in the striped loading zone between spaces marked for the handicapped) If I knew I could get away with it, I would shoot such people on sight. As it stands, I have jammed chewing gum into their doorhandles and spit on their moped seats.

   In a month, I will be taking a class offered by the police, which will enable me to write tickets to these pathetic losers.

   Have a nice day.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jun 24, 2005)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Bah, North Carolina ain't south.  Damn yankee.





Bite me, redneck!


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jun 24, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> And the end of the world is near!




.....But do we feel fine?


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Jun 24, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> .....But do we feel fine?



at peace at least.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 24, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> It might be a little rude, but it might help him to understand that you are perceiving him as being rude; he might not understand what he is doing is rude.




In this case, it could also be a matter of pride.  Some disabled folks feel weakened every time they have to recognize that they aren't the same as everyone else.  Admitting that your help is useful is, to some, an admission that they are "less of a person".  

This may seem dumb, from the outside.  But how would you feel if you were reminded that your body was broken every time you had to go through a doorway?  These folks are forced to live in a world that really isn't built for them, in which discrimination due to their conditions is rampant.  Salvaging a little pride may be kind of necessary for some of them.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 24, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> Something I do not recall reading in this thread is simply this- smile at people, nod to them when you can’t say hello, say hello to them as you walk past.  Only a few times have I regretted saying something to someone (guys looking for a little action seem to think the word “hello,” also means “take me to your bed.”)



I mentioned in my post how many people actively avoid eye contact so they won't feel like they should say hello or nod or acknowledge your existence.  I often say hello or nod to people I pass when walking - it really freaks some people out.



> To those of you that give blood (Harmon mentioned it)- thank you.  I received some this last year, without donators I might not have made it or perhaps I would have and it just would have taken me longer to recover.  If you have never given blood it only hurts a little and they give you cake afterwards or cookies.




You are welcome.  I can almost set my watch by the Red Cross calling me for another appointment.  They love my O negative blood more than the mosquitos do.


----------



## Harmon (Jun 24, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> This may seem dumb, from the outside.  But how would you feel if you were reminded that your body was broken every time you had to go through a doorway?




Actually it doesn't.  At the end of '99 I was pretty serioulsy injured on the job.  Nine monthes later I returned to work, still injured- work comp said I was good to go.  Nine months or so later my injured arm gave out completely.  I spent two years trying to recover.

My pride was bent and eventually broken in half, by the knowledge that I could no longer do all the things I wanted to do and things I could not do.      

I was lucky to find someone that could get me back into shape, get things moving for me again, but I gained a lot from the experience.  I feel for the disabled, esp those that will never recover, that do not have that option.

A simple thank you for opening a door should not be a pride breaker, its a courtesy.  Hijinks mentioned that the wheel chair bound man some times runs people down in narrow hallways, should that be consider rude?  I think yes, does it rob him to not do that?  It sounds pretty sadistic to me that he would do that.  

I am with Hijinks- no one deserves to be in a wheel chair, but he should not use that as an excuse to be rude.


----------



## nothing to see here (Jun 24, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I think that it's so easy to be rude on the Internet for a few reasons...
> 
> ie. lack of accountability.  You don't have to look someone in the face when you insult them, so it's easy.
> 
> ...




Good points, all.  As much as I love Message Boards like this one during slow periods of work...they lack many of the refining features of personal communications.


----------



## Harmon (Jun 24, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> To those of you that give blood (Harmon mentioned it)- thank you.  I received some this last year, without donators I might not have made it or perhaps I would have and it just would have taken me longer to recover.  If you have never given blood it only hurts a little and they give you cake afterwards or cookies.




I have not given in a year due to some questions regarding my health, but as soon as I can I will continue.  You are very welcome   



			
				BlackSilver said:
			
		

> Harmon, I am doing better, thank you for asking.  I am sorry about your friend, it’s a sad thing when a friendship dissolves, leave your heart open and maybe….




You are welcome.  

I will.  I have hope that one day he will see I am not the only one being an ass.


----------



## ForceUser (Jun 24, 2005)

This thread reminds me of that song from _Chicago_.   

(Velma) 
Whatever happened to fair dealing 
And pure ethics 
And nice manners? 
Why is it everyone now is a pain in the Arse? 
Whatever happened to class? 
(Mama) 
Class. 
Whatever happened to Please may I 
And Yes thank you 
And How charming? 
Now every son of a b*tch 
Is a snake in the grass 
Whatever happened to class? 
(Velma) 
Class. 
(Both) 
Oh, there ain't no gentlemen to open up the doors, 
There ain't no ladies now there's only pigs and whores 
And even kids'll knock you down so's they can pass 
Nobody's got no class!!! 
(Velma) 
Whatever happened to old values 
(Mama) 
And fine morals 
(Velma) 
And good breeding? 
(Mama) 
Now no-one even says oops 
When they're passing their gas 
(Both) 
Whatever happened to class? 
Class. 
Oh, There ain't no gentelmen that's fit for any use, 
And any girl will touch your privates for a deuce
And even kids'll kick your shins and give ya sass 
Nobody's got no class! 
(Velma) 
All you read about today is rape and theft 
(Mama) 
Jesus Christ, ain't there no decency left? 
(Both) 
Nobody's got no class! 

(Mama) 
Every guy is a snot 
(Velma) 
Every girl is a twat 
(Mama) 
Holy sh*t 
(Velma) 
Holy sh*t 
(Mama) 
What a shame 
(Velma) 
What a shame 
(Both) 
What became of class?


----------



## Umbran (Jun 24, 2005)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> This thread reminds me of that song from _Chicago_.




If I recall the policy correctly, putting "*" does not make a thing Grandma friendly, ForceUser.  And you missed at least one naughty word in there.  You might want to edit or reconsider that post.


----------



## ForceUser (Jun 24, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> If I recall the policy correctly, putting "*" does not make a thing Grandma friendly, ForceUser.  And you missed at least one naughty word in there.  You might want to edit or reconsider that post.



Bleh. It's art. If a mod has a problem with it, he can do what he feels he needs to do. I ain't changing it.


----------



## Dagger75 (Jun 24, 2005)

I don't think people are anymore rude than what they used to be.  My job is givning people bad news all day,  I tell them that there Health Insurance won't pay for this or that all day long.  Even they are generally not rude to me.  They may be pissed but they aren't pissed at me.  I don't get the "rude vibe" from them.

 Now my roommate thinks everybody in the service is rude unless they meet his standards.  He is a manager of an electronics store and expects his employees to be super nice.  I have worked in the service industry way to long, and very rarely do cashiers, stocker and what not come off as rude.  Sure the "have a nice day" may just be lip service but its a rough borning job.  I try to be extra nice polite to them, don't complain to them when the lines are long, the computer is slow or whatever.  Its not there fault, they want you gone as much as you want to be out of there.  And generally people want to help other people so I try to be nice.  A simple smile and nice hello are usally all that is needed.

 As for the stopping on the side of road thing-- I would like to stop and help change a tire but its a different world now.  People have been robbed or killed trying to be nice.

 And the gas can story with no guys stopping to offer a ride-- Again, its a different world a woman getting into a strangers car nowadays just seems like asking for trouble.


----------



## Arnwyn (Jun 24, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I've occasionally wondered if the prevalence of online forums of communication hasn't heightened rudeness amongst people at large.



Well, some preliminary studies (that, coincidentally, I read about in the newspaper not much more than a week ago) say "likely".


----------



## Aeolius (Jun 24, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> As for the stopping on the side of road thing-- I would like to stop and help change a tire but its a different world now.  People have been robbed or killed trying to be nice. And the gas can story with no guys stopping to offer a ride-- Again, its a different world a woman getting into a strangers car nowadays just seems like asking for trouble.




   I'd agree with this. I have a wife and kids. I generally do not trust people, as a rule. Therefore, I do not pick up hitchhikers, nor do I stop to help strangers, unless it's in full view of others (busy highway, crowded gas station, etc).


----------



## sniffles (Jun 24, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Or it simply means that at the time they were passing your truck, they didn't need a bungee cord.
> 
> On the other hand, living up here in Canada, I had an extension cord on my front porch, that I used at night to heat the engine of my car, so that when I had to drive to work in the morning, when it had been -40 celcius overnight, the car would actually start.
> 
> ...




I haven't lost my faith in humanity yet, but it does make me wonder when people think they can just take your stuff.  Someone stole a wasp trap from outside my house.  Why would you steal a wasp trap??  People also think they can dump stuff in my driveway randomly just because I don't use the driveway to park my car.  And recently our lawn is very long.  Do the neighbors ask us if we need help?  No, they just complain about the grass, leaving anonymous notes on our door.  We don't own a mower and we're financially strapped right now.  I can understand the anonymity of the note a bit - they're probably afraid we'll come to the door with a gun if they identify themselves - but couldn't it occur to them that we're not letting the grass grow just to annoy them?

On the other side of the coin:  A year and a half ago I was going through chemo, and while I was in hospital for treatment a big ice storm came through.  My fiancee couldn't get to the hospital to pick me up after my treatment was done.  The doctor who was on call that week had a 4-wheel-drive SUV, and she gave me a ride home.  She didn't have to do that.  She wasn't making any extra money off me, and no one was waiting for the hosptial bed because new patients couldn't get there through the ice.  She just did it so I wouldn't have to be in the hospital another day or two.


----------



## Tewligan (Jun 25, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> no one deserves to be in a wheel chair,



Hitler and Cobra Commander deserve it.


----------



## Darth K'Trava (Jun 25, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> Hitler and Cobra Commander deserve it.




Hey! Cobra Commander was kewl!!!


----------



## mojo1701 (Jun 25, 2005)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> Hey! Cobra Commander was kewl!!!




Yeah, White Goodman was amazing.


----------



## Captain Howdy (Jun 25, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Thank you for “listening” to my rant, I really needed to get this off my chest.




You're welcome, good sir! Have a nice day now.


----------



## Tatsukun (Jun 25, 2005)

Two things to add..

1) This whole thing about telling kids “Fear strangers” is silly. They don’t fear the bad guys, they only end up fearing everyone else. I used to work in a big university, and I often see parents and their kids walking on our campus. I often say “Hello” to the family, and 9 times out of 10 the mother grabs the child, and shoves him/her behind herself as if to protect from the freak who DARES talk to her family (child included). 

Of course, it has bad effects. Just recently there was that Boy Scout lost in the woods for 4 days because he was scared to talk to the ‘strangers’ in the search and rescue parties who were looking for him. 

That’s sad. 


2) I lost my wallet (dropped it on the subway train) a few months ago. It contained my ID, money, and various cards. I figured it was gone, and had the cards canceled and all that. Well, a few days later I get a call from the police station. Someone found my wallet, and turned it in the same day. They had been holding it for my, waiting for me to contact them. Of course, everything was in the wallet when I got it back.

The lesson is that if I had had a little faith in humans and checked if anyone had turned it in I wouldn’t have had to go to all the trouble of canceling my cards. 


      --Tatsu


----------



## stevelabny (Jun 25, 2005)

a few random notes about this thread,

do you know whats rude to me? 

having every conversation fiilled with endless amounts of pleases, thank yous, your welcomes, and meaningless other pleasantries.

life is short. time is valuable, if i say "pass the salt" and not "pass the salt, you >censored<" then PLEASE is implied.

a thank you among strangers is OK, but it is completely unnecessary with people you are with on a regular basis (friends, family, coworkers, etc)

if someone is in your way, say excuse me, and keep walking. if theyre standing in a doorway or at the top or bottom of a staircase, its rude only if you dont tell them how stupid they are. 

the problem with holding the door / giving up the seat and other chilvarous deeds is that since the 80s many women have decided that these things are more insulting than polite. if they cant make their minds up, i have no desire to play along. Add into this the problem of me being a big guy, and everyone being afraid that all strangers are psycho killers and its just not worth the hassle.  

I've seen people expect that I should give up a seat on a bus or subway because I'm a "young man".  Well, guess what. You have no idea what my health status might be. I could have a bad back, or a sprained ankle or any other problem that would be better off seated.  Also, EXPECTING someone to give up a seat is rude.  Why do I have to say PLEASE to get some salt at dinner, but you can't say "can i please have that seat?"   The double standards are ridiculous. I've given my seat to anyone who ever asked for it. And, if I'm in a particularly nice mood, to stupid old crippled women or pregnant women. Of course, the general rule of thumb should be "if youre not healthy enough to survive standing up, DON'T ride public transportation"

The political correctness of America is another problem. Look how everyone wants to treat wheelchair guy differently than every other rude person in this thread. If you think he's rude, call him out on it. 

Then look at all the dinsgenuity in the "politeness" that many businesses and condescending elderly people throw around. 

And as one final note, the "bless you" thing DEFINITELY doesnt fly. Much like all talk of religion isn't allowed around here, why do you think you can get away with blessing people you don't know? I don't follow your god, and I don't want his blessing. 

I'm very not-rude. I don't talk in theatres, I'm friendly and social with strangers, if you ask me to do something for you, and I can... I will.

BUT i'm not "polite". Polite is a waste of time. Polite does nothing for anyone. Polite is just one more lie that your parents told you.  

Give me honesty and efficiency any day of the week.


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## mojo1701 (Jun 25, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> BUT i'm not "polite". Polite is a waste of time. Polite does nothing for anyone. Polite is just one more lie that your parents told you.
> 
> Give me honesty and efficiency any day of the week.




I don't know about you, but if someone brushes past me, and says "Excuse me" or apologizes, I feel better, and don't necessarily think that the person's a jerk.

Oh, and I believe that this attitude of your is the problem that we're discussing here. 

Oh, and honesty and efficiency works for robots, not humans.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 25, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> a few random notes about this thread,
> 
> do you know whats rude to me?
> 
> ...




But it should be forthcoming, implied or not. Shows you're being polite. 



> a thank you among strangers is OK, but it is completely unnecessary with people you are with on a regular basis (friends, family, coworkers, etc)




I disagree here. Even friends deserve a "thank you" if they do something for you, especially things you don't ask for or even stuff you *do* ask for. It's courteous. And the same goes for if you do something for them and they should also thank you as well. It's a two-way street; not just limited to strangers. Your friends deserve it too. I've done alot of stuff for a friend of mine and he's thanked me for it; showed his gratitude for my generosity.



> if someone is in your way, say excuse me, and keep walking. if theyre standing in a doorway or at the top or bottom of a staircase, its rude only if you dont tell them how stupid they are.




Huh? Is this New York state of thinking here? That's rude if you DO tell them they're stupid for being in your way!   



> the problem with holding the door / giving up the seat and other chilvarous deeds is that since the 80s many women have decided that these things are more insulting than polite.




I'm a woman and I don't mind a man being a gentleman and holding doors open for me. Granted I don't go for that whole "women's lib" stuff.. I still like some of the "old-fashioned" stuff that nice guys can do. The only time I griped to the friend of mine was it being a potential risk for him hurting himself holding the door open as he's got a bad back and knees and had to lunge for the door before I got to it... Other than instances like that, I love it!   



> The political correctness of America is another problem. Look how everyone wants to treat wheelchair guy differently than every other rude person in this thread. If you think he's rude, call him out on it.




I don't care for the PC of today's society. Sugar-coating everything because we're so afraid of offending anyone... If you had a "tough skin", you shouldn't let stuff offend you so easily. People are people.. 



> And as one final note, the "bless you" thing DEFINITELY doesnt fly. Much like all talk of religion isn't allowed around here, why do you think you can get away with blessing people you don't know? I don't follow your god, and I don't want his blessing.




Just 'cause I say "bless you" when you sneeze, doesn't mean I'm giving you God's Blessing... It's a courteous thing that came from that but has lost much of its meaning over the years... it's more an automatic response than anything these days. And not all who say it are automatically blessing you in God's name and so forth... 



> I'm very not-rude. I don't talk in theatres, I'm friendly and social with strangers, if you ask me to do something for you, and I can... I will.




So am I. Within my means for helping someone out.. I've bought stuff for friends of mine who don't have the money and drove a four-hour round trip out of my way for a friend to enjoy the Star Wars movie as he couldn't see it on his own... Not to mention giving him a ride to a convention the first of the month, helping him cash a check as he doesn't have a bank account.

I don't care for rudeness both at work and when I'm out somewhere. Those kind of people get dirty looks and muttered comments that, at times, I care not if they overhear them.



> BUT i'm not "polite". Polite is a waste of time. Polite does nothing for anyone. Polite is just one more lie that your parents told you.




I guess living in NYC gives you that kind of 'tude.   



> Give me honesty and efficiency any day of the week.




I AGREE THERE!! I prefer straight-up honesty any day over being decieved and lied to. Or stolen from! Nor do I like being trod upon like a pile of dirt either.


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## Harmon (Jun 25, 2005)

*Strange conversation*

While I was at the gym a little while ago a gentleman on the thread mill next to mine struck up a conversation about- of all things, courtesies.  

His thought was that maturity has more to do with kindness and courtesy.  Stupidly I said- “I know some pretty kind five year olds.”  “Maturity has nothing to do with age,” he corrected in a teacher type tone.

He went on to explain that the more mature a person is the more likely they will be to understand other people and know how to deal with them in a polite and kind way (I am cutting this story way down- we talked for forty five minutes).  The immature will not understand and thus be ruder (intentionally or non intentionally- which he made a fair point of during our talk).

I asked how he had come to this conclusion and he told me that he had a Masters in Psychology and a Bachelors in Sociology.  There is some level of me that doubts that I would start this thread then have a guy with a pair of degrees step onto a thread mill next to me and start a conversation about this very subject.  Seems a little- emm, I don’t know, strange, maybe?

Course stranger things have happened.

So what do you all think- any weight to this?  Maturity makes for more courtesy people?


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## Banshee16 (Jun 25, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I don't think people are anymore rude than what they used to be.  My job is givning people bad news all day,  I tell them that there Health Insurance won't pay for this or that all day long.  Even they are generally not rude to me.  They may be pissed but they aren't pissed at me.  I don't get the "rude vibe" from them.
> 
> Now my roommate thinks everybody in the service is rude unless they meet his standards.  He is a manager of an electronics store and expects his employees to be super nice.  I have worked in the service industry way to long, and very rarely do cashiers, stocker and what not come off as rude.  Sure the "have a nice day" may just be lip service but its a rough borning job.  I try to be extra nice polite to them, don't complain to them when the lines are long, the computer is slow or whatever.  Its not there fault, they want you gone as much as you want to be out of there.  And generally people want to help other people so I try to be nice.  A simple smile and nice hello are usally all that is needed.
> 
> ...




Well, I'm not so sure about the service industry thing.  It's part of the service industry that you're supposed to give, well, good service.  If somebody's so bored that they're rude to customers, they should really find another job.

I also don't get the whole thing with figuring that just because somebody's in the service industry, and is getting minimum wage, they shouldn't work hard.  When I was in retail, many of the employees just didn't care.  They weren't making much, and figured they'd do a job like they weren't making much.  That's rude to the customers, and disrespectful to the coworkers who are actually trying to accomplish something.

At the same time, customers can be incredibly rude.  I remember a few instances where rather rude shoppers berated staff, leaving them in tears, or on the verge of tears.  In many of these cases, the customer was actually in the wrong in the first place, but were taking advantage of the fact that the employee couldn't really do anything, for fear of losing their job.  Luckily, the last time I saw this happen, the manager on duty saw it happen, and told the customer to apologize, then kicked  him out of the store, and said that if he ever returned, the police would be called.

My girlfriend and I went into a store in Quebec a few months ago.  I'm bilingual, but she's English only.  We split up, and she went into a clothing store.  A saleswoman/salesgirl came up to offer assistance, in French only.  My girlfriend pointed out she doesn't speak French, and instead of seeking another employee who spoke English, the woman just turned her back on her and walked away.  That really, really annoys me, as I find it just ignorant.

I agree with the "being nice possibly getting one into trouble" thing.  I remember in my last year in University, it was the 22nd or 23rd of December, right after exams finished.  Local campus pub, one of the patrons, a student, starts getting rowdy.  Owner tries to get him to leave, but is an old man, and the student wouldn't go.  Another student got up to help the owner make the first guy leave.....and the first guy pulls a knife and stabs the student that was trying to help in the heart, and killed him.  For trying to help an older shop-keeper.  Two days before Christmas.  I remember reading about it in the local paper..it was horribly sad.

During the ice storm back in '97, they were distributing generators to some of the older people in our community so they could have some power.  And people were *stealing* them from people's homes and selling them off to the highest bidder.

Banshee


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## Harmon (Jun 25, 2005)

Stevelabny,

I guess it is you that I started this thread to talk about.  I doubt that we would ever meet, or ever have so.... Should we pass on the side walk or in a bus, you look at me or I at you neither of us will know who we are looking at, you will snarl or stare blank faced and I forget that I saw you within a few minutes and move on.  

A person that smiles, or nods to me stays in my mind a little longer, one that says "bless you," when I sneeze remains that slightly longer, and someone that gives up his seat to a little old lady or a pregnant woman- well I might thank them and or speak kindly of that person later.

Its my belief that immortality begins with being remembered.  People that make an impact on your life remain with you well past their passing.

As far as blessing someone- I believe in God, in Heaven and Hell, but religion, nah thanks.  The blessing is just a kindness, a thought of good health, an extension of hope for good health and long life, nothing more.  

I think it would blow you all away on my views and my beliefs (religious, political, and otherwise).  I started this thread to ask the question, to find out why.  Steve has helped me and I think a few more to understand the mind of people I perceive as rude.  

Thank you, Steve, that was very kind of you.


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## Banshee16 (Jun 25, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> While I was at the gym a little while ago a gentleman on the thread mill next to mine struck up a conversation about- of all things, courtesies.
> 
> His thought was that maturity has more to do with kindness and courtesy.  Stupidly I said- “I know some pretty kind five year olds.”  “Maturity has nothing to do with age,” he corrected in a teacher type tone.
> 
> ...




I think that maturity can contribute to courtesy.  Treating others as you want to be treated, and treating them like they have value typically requires a level of maturity that many people don't seem to develop.  In the "me me me" society that we live in nowadays, it seems that a lot of people have forgotten about the simple things.

I think a lot of it has to do with teaching though....what you're taught in school, and by family.

My personal opinion is that with the rise of the two-income family, children just aren't getting raised the same way as they used to be.  Parents just don't seem to have much authority over their kids.  I've heard that in my province (Ontario), the schools can't even fail children who are doing poorly anymore, for fear of damaging their self-esteem.  My girlfriend and I were sitting in a restaurant enjoying dinner, and the table where we'd been seated was next to a family with 3 or 4 kids.  Apparently there'd been some sort of party, and they were at the tail end of their dinner.  The kids were running around.  Not just running around, but getting rowdy as well.  They kept going behind my seat, and on several instances while I was eating, one ran on one side of our table, the other was right behind me, and would yell to his brother....from about 4 cm behind my ear.  They were dragging balloons around, and actually hit the waitress in the face with one, intentionally, while she was carrying a bunch of trays.

All this time, what happened?  A few times the parents asked the kids to sit down, but they didn't force them to...so the kids kept doing this.  If I had acted like that as a kid, my parents would have ended the dinner right there, we'd have been loaded into the car, taken home, sent to our rooms, and grounded for a week.  Overly strict?  Maybe.....but none of the kids in our family were anything like that.

I just don't get why parents would let their kids do this kind of thing.

Banshee


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## Harmon (Jun 25, 2005)

Banshee, you have a good point.

Your story strikes close, my parents would not have allowed that either.  I would have gotten a look- "The Look," from my Dad and I would have sat down fast.   :\  He spanked us, grounded us, and gave us more chores then we could do in a weekend, that was the penaly for getting the look.

There was a show on Elephants on Discovery in Kenja (I think or some other African country) about a group that had lost their (whats a lead elephant called?) anyways they lost thier leader and started vandalizing and tearing up the region.  The government brought in an older male and within a few days the "kids," where in order.  I guess they got the look.

(Kenja?  Emmm- I will have to look into that, not sure where it was.)


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## Banshee16 (Jun 25, 2005)

I think that there's a point there.  Maybe it's true that kids require discipline, or a strong leader type figure.  I wasn't allowed out on my own past 11......so why are kids out in our neighbourhood vandalising houses, being loud and obnoxious to people trying to sleep, between 11 pm and 2 am?  Why are 14-18 year olds out at that time?  Where are the parents, and why don't they seem to care what trouble their kids are getting into?

Banshee


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jun 25, 2005)

Sounds like Kenya.

I personally believe that most people know how to behave.

I also believe that most of them try to behave when they believe that there will be consequences for failing to do so.

Frequently, though, people forget to mind their manners.  I find that the more isolated they are from those with whom they interact, the less polite they feel compelled to be.  In person > on the phone > on line > in the third person.

The guy at the soda machine at Taco Bell in the original post and the girls on the sidewalk straightened out their respective acts when they realized that it was expected.

9/10 people apologize for the wrong number.

Most of the members of EN World have not viewed this thread, and most of those who have viewed did not bother to commiserate, but many of us have.

The original poster called the restuarant *Taco Smell*.  Who's going to call him on it?  I call it Taco Hell personally.


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## Harmon (Jun 25, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I think that there's a point there.  Maybe it's true that kids require discipline, or a strong leader type figure.  I wasn't allowed out on my own past 11......so why are kids out in our neighbourhood vandalising houses, being loud and obnoxious to people trying to sleep, between 11 pm and 2 am?  Why are 14-18 year olds out at that time?  Where are the parents, and why don't they seem to care what trouble their kids are getting into?
> 
> Banshee




A suggestion- get to know your neighbors.  In the summer months that kids on our circle like to play basketball late, once in a while I have to go out and ask them to stop- "guys its late," only once did I have any problems.  I spoke to the kid that I knew, the game was over.

Speak to the parents of, to the kids, and ask them to reframe from being out late, making noise and such after 9 pm or somewhere in there.  If they coninue call the police, ask them to take care of it.

Be calm, patient and understanding.  If you are concerned about being attacked, being vandalized, take pictures of the kids first, do it from a distance first then close up- so they see you.  Use a video camera to get their night ventures on tape or disc, give a copy to their parents.  

The kids might not understand what they are doing is desruptive.


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## Harmon (Jun 25, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> Sounds like Kenya.




I see stuff on Discovery all the time and can't remember details.



			
				Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> The original poster called the restuarant *Taco Smell*.  Who's going to call him on it?  I call it Taco Hell personally.




Heard that one too.  Old friend of mine use to say that all the time.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 25, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> The original poster called the restuarant *Taco Smell*.  Who's going to call him on it?  I call it Taco Hell personally.



I've heard it as Toxic Bell too.


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## Wereserpent (Jun 25, 2005)

LOL I ate at Taco Bell today.

Anyways, I usually say sir and Mam to people at least 5 or more years older than me.  I do forget sometimes, but I never intentionally dont say it.

I might acidentally do some things that could be perceived as rude, but I am just trying not too possibly inconvenince anyone, like hwen I was at Taco Bell earlier today and I was walking outside with my food because me and my friends were going to eat putside some other people were walking in, now it was sort of akward for a second as I was holding a tray and a drink and I they held the door open for me, but I opted to go out the other door and told them os because I have bad depth erception and I was afraid I migth bump into one of them and drop my tray and drink.

P.S. This Taco Bell had an area to eat outside obviously.


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## Harmon (Jun 25, 2005)

We can only try to be polite.

Even the most kind of us has a bad day once in a while.

New family moved in next door.  I have yet to meet them, need to do that.  They have been locking their car doors with their remote.  There are three medical workers on our circle that work nights or evenings and at least one guy that works nights (I am not sure what he does for a living).  I need to speak to them about the remotes and the horn honking when they pull up to take the kids some where.  

Few years back- first year we lived here, the guy across the circle was reving his cars engine while he was working on it (what he was doing I have no idea), it was mid after noon, but my wife was trying to sleep- she was working nights at the time.  The wife- in her night shirt, goes down stairs, barefoot across the street, beyond pissed off- "are you done yet?"  Mike was stunned.  "I have to work tonight and I would like to get some sleep.  Are you done?"  Mike shut off his car- "ya.  I'm sorry."  She stormed back in and slammed the door.  That story has been told around our street so often its legend.    

Mike had no clue that he was inturpting her sleep.  The wife knew that, but only after she had settled down.


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## Rel (Jun 25, 2005)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Steve has helped me and I think a few more to understand the mind of people I perceive as rude.
> 
> Thank you, Steve, that was very kind of you.




Yeah, it sounds like Steve (and those who share his mindset) are not rude, just not very friendly.

Me, I try to be friendly.  I find that I get laid more that way.


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## Jeff Wilder (Jun 25, 2005)

I wonder how many of the posters here would rail _against_ "political correctness," which is (as the name indicates) just a form of politeness.  My guess is "quite a few."


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## Harmon (Jun 25, 2005)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> I wonder how many of the posters here would rail _against_ "political correctness," which is (as the name indicates) just a form of politeness.  My guess is "quite a few."




For me its not about PC- I could care less.  

What I want is for people to treat me politely, respectfully, and more or less how they want to be treated (I believe that everyone wants to be treated with respect and with some politeness).

I agree that PC and politeness are pretty close in form, but I don't think they are the exact same thing.


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## wingsandsword (Jun 25, 2005)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> I wonder how many of the posters here would rail _against_ "political correctness," which is (as the name indicates) just a form of politeness.  My guess is "quite a few."



Politeness is showing people proper courtesy and treating them with dignity and consideration.  Many very polite people I have met over the years have used extremely politically incorrect language and expressions, but they say them sincerely and politely, since they mean no offense and when they learned them the expressions were socially acceptable.

Political Correctness is going out of your way to change your language and behavior to be as inoffensive as possible, for fear of offending a disadvantaged or minority group.  I've ment plenty of Politically Correct people who were very impolite, and would be brusque, hateful, and aggressive, but careful to always use ideologically approved words and expressions.

Being "Politically Correct" is *not* being Polite.  They can look similar, but one is a matter of dignity, courtesy, and grace, and the other is about C.Y.A. so you don't offend any minorities and look "insensitive".


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## the Lorax (Jun 25, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> Is _also_ true, to be exact. Jerks get their way rather often as well.
> 
> Personally, I'm polite unless circumstances necessitate otherwise (and sometimes technically even then - _technically_).





It is a problem brought on by the increasingly corporate and service based economy that we live in.
The squeeky wheel gets the greese.  Businesses have taught their employees to reward customers rude behavior by by granting the jerk greater attention and service.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 26, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> 9/10 people apologize for the wrong number.




I try to apologize for the wrong number. I know I apologized to this one poor lady who I called her place 5(!) times one day because my grandmother gave me the wrong number to the place a friend worked at.... 

[quoteMost of the members of EN World have not viewed this thread, and most of those who have viewed did not bother to commiserate, but many of us have.[/quote]

More people LOOK at a thread than REPLY to one.



> The original poster called the restuarant *Taco Smell*.  Who's going to call him on it?  I call it Taco Hell personally.




I also call it Taco Hell. Just like my 'net service is AOHell.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 26, 2005)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> I wonder how many of the posters here would rail _against_ "political correctness," which is (as the name indicates) just a form of politeness.  My guess is "quite a few."




I've never cared for being "politically correct". It's just too annoying to have to censor yourself (re: throwing the 1st amendment out the window) just to kiss someone's butt....   If you can't handle the truth, then grow a thick skin. We had to.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 26, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Politeness is showing people proper courtesy and treating them with dignity and consideration.  Many very polite people I have met over the years have used extremely politically incorrect language and expressions, but they say them sincerely and politely, since they mean no offense and when they learned them the expressions were socially acceptable.




True. My ex-boyfriend's mother (God rest her soul) used a certain word aimed at the black community but they knew, due to her age, that she meant no harm by it and didn't get after her for it; it was the way she was taught... The rest of us would be in the middle of a huge fight if we'd done the same...




> Being "Politically Correct" is *not* being Polite.  They can look similar, but one is a matter of dignity, courtesy, and grace, and the other is about C.Y.A. so you don't offend any minorities and look "insensitive".




As a minority, I've heard it all and now have gotten over the hurtfulness of the cutting remarks. It's called "growing a thick skin", 'cause people are gonna be crude and offensive to those they deem "inferior". I just see my slightly darker skin as the fact that those who make crude comments about it are just jealous that I don't have to lay in the sun to get my "natural tan"


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jun 27, 2005)

Jeff Wilder said:
			
		

> I wonder how many of the posters here would rail _against_ "political correctness," which is (as the name indicates) just a form of politeness.  My guess is "quite a few."



The two are distinct!

Politeness is an effort to let others around you be as comfortable and happy as is reasonably sustainable.  It is consideration for the wants and needs of others in the process of decision making.

Politically correctness, or "NEWSPEAK," as it used to be known, is an effort to avoid conflict by avoiding communication by through the obsfucation of meaning.   If all your words are non-sense, no one can understand you.  If no one understands you, they cannot object to what you say.

[sblock]Strategially releasing a pre-adult person of biologically-determined male gender and/or an adult person of size whose birth gender is also male from an altitudinously enabled vessel of peace upon multi-speciel, traditionally accustomed dwelling settlements Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused both foreseen and unforeseen negative patient care outcome of varying acuteness and severity to the residents of those aforementioned places of dwelling.  This action was taken in an effort to dissuade ongoing aggressive international action on the part of the those subject to the action or on the part of those to whom they were allied or aligned in national, political, ideological, or other ways against those persons, of any gender, not limited to only two or less, and persons of pre-adult, adolescent, adult and practiced adult ages selecting to conduct the strategic release or those with whom they were allied or aligned along national, political, ideological. or other lines.[/sblock]

[sblock]Excuse me, sir.  You probably don't know that you're parked in a cripple spot.  Those spots are reserved for gimps because they have a harder time getting into and out of these little spaces and wheelin' themselves out the spots further from the store.  Go ahead and get back in your car and move it to a spot that isn't reserved for the lame.  Thank you, sir."[/sblock]You guess which is which.


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## mojo1701 (Jun 27, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> [sblock]Strategially releasing a pre-adult person of biologically-determined male gender and/or an adult person of size whose birth gender is also male from an altitudinously enabled vessel of peace upon multi-speciel, traditionally accustomed dwelling settlements Hiroshima and Nagasaki caused both foreseen and unforeseen negative patient care outcome of varying acuteness and severity to the residents of those aforementioned places of dwelling.  This action was taken in an effort to dissuade ongoing aggressive international action on the part of the those subject to the action or on the part of those to whom they were allied or aligned in national, political, ideological, or other ways against those persons, of any gender, not limited to only two or less, and persons of pre-adult, adolescent, adult and practiced adult ages selecting to conduct the strategic release or those with whom they were allied or aligned along national, political, ideological. or other lines.[/sblock]




And I thought programming was hard...


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## wingsandsword (Jun 27, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> And I thought programming was hard...



That _is_ programming, thought programming.  "Control the language and you control the thoughts" to quote Orwell.  Political Correctness seeks to change peoples thoughts by removing words and expressions from the language, and replacing them with words that have a meaning that the PC approve of.  Orwell called it "Newspeak", but Newspeak has bad connotations of facism because of the book 1984, so that word is politically incorrect, and replaced with "Political Correctness".  Even the name "Political Correctness" tells something, it's political.  It's not about courtesy, it's about a political ideology/agenda.


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## Aeolius (Jun 27, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> You guess which is which.




   Me, I try not to confront the person. I just call the cops. Getting a $250 ticket is usually more memorable than having some complete stranger cuss you out.


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## sniffles (Jun 28, 2005)

Yesterday during my lunch break I was reminded of this thread and of one of my pet peeves in the common courtesy department:  spitting in public.  There are few things more disgusting to me than seeing blobs of spittle on the pavement.  There used to be anti-spitting laws in many towns, which were actually in place for health reasons, primarily to cut down on tuberculosis.  Today, with TB on the rise again and other communicable diseases such as AIDS and hepatitis always in the news (not to mention flu and colds), one would hope people would think twice before hawking a loogie on the sidewalk.  And what is it in our (American) culture that makes it okay for men to spit all the time?  I've very rarely seen a woman spitting, but almost every man I know will spit occasionally.  

Please, guys, next time you feel it necessary to spit, take a moment and think about the people who may have to walk there.  Just because they have shoes on doesn't mean they won't come into contact with your dribble.  

(rant over)


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## Tewligan (Jun 29, 2005)

Tatsukun said:
			
		

> I lost my wallet (dropped it on the subway train) a few months ago. It contained my ID, money, and various cards. I figured it was gone, and had the cards canceled and all that. Well, a few days later I get a call from the police station. Someone found my wallet, and turned it in the same day. They had been holding it for my, waiting for me to contact them. Of course, everything was in the wallet when I got it back.
> 
> The lesson is that if I had had a little faith in humans and checked if anyone had turned it in I wouldn’t have had to go to all the trouble of canceling my cards.



No, you still should have cancelled them. Someone could have taken down your card info and gone on an ordering spree while you thought you were safe since you had your cards back. I work in the claims department of a bank, and I see this all the time.


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## Darth K'Trava (Jun 29, 2005)

Tewligan said:
			
		

> No, you still should have cancelled them. Someone could have taken down your card info and gone on an ordering spree while you thought you were safe since you had your cards back. I work in the claims department of a bank, and I see this all the time.





Yeah. Make sure there's not any frivolous charges to your credit cards. If all else fails, have them cancelled and get new ones: the safer bet.


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## Harmon (Aug 29, 2005)

I know this thread is old, but something happened last night at our hotel and I am very annoyed.

My wife had to attend a seminar for CEU (Continuing Education Units) as part of her licensing.  I worked on Friday, and got laid off (was expecting it) after a 48 hr week, exhausted we- well I drove, up to Sacramento.  

Hotel.

Asked for "a quiet room," not near the elevators, stairs, ice machine, or any parties.  Noise wasn't to bad Friday.

Saturday the neighbors started to party about 9 pm, then they took off for a strip club.  At 0130 they returned and continued to party in the room.  Instead of my usual- "shut the &*#$ up," fist slam on the wall we called the front desk and complained.  Security came and asked them to quiet down- which they did not. 

Now the problem I am having here is that the party, during the next two times that security showed did not remain to shut the party down, nor did they make any attempt to protect my pregnent wife and I.  A number of open threats were made by the partiers.  Enough so that I felt I was going to have to do some "partying" of my own (I haven't hit anyone in years so I don't recall how much it hurts to hit someone).

Mind you I have said nothing, not a word to the partiers, no lights are on, and the threats are flying from these people.  My wife is nearing tears and I am starting to really think about just kicking in the door and ask them if they want to "shut this complainer up in person."

Upset, my wife asks- "do you think you can get us home?"

Sure, I have had six hours of sleep in the last forty six hours.  

The hotel will be getting a nice letter from me about their lack of security, and the lack of their stance on keeping the peace.  I did the Security Guard thing for a year or so way back before construction, and I never left a scene when there were partiers that had complaints against them, I know how drunks are, how violent they can get.

So we pack, move everything out to the truck, and I drive us home.


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## LogicsFate (Aug 29, 2005)

Horrible, I'd like to think that I don't know anybody like that but I probly have some friends like that, cares about no one other than themselves. Gets pleasure outa jerky things


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## Harmon (Aug 29, 2005)

LogicsFate said:
			
		

> Horrible, I'd like to think that I don't know anybody like that but I probly have some friends like that, cares about no one other than themselves. Gets pleasure outa jerky things




Actually its more about the security people then anything else.  They should have stayedin the area of the party until it was quieter or shut down.  It took them like fifteen to thirty minutes to respond and they did nothing about the noise.

FWIW- the rooms above, and beside the partiers all had lights on.  I assumed by the number of rings we had to wait to get our calls answered that the Front Desk was getting lots of complaints.


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## LogicsFate (Aug 29, 2005)

Hehehe I probly wouldn't have wanted to deal with it either, sitting in the security room drinking coffee is so much nicer


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## BlackSilver (Aug 29, 2005)

Your wife is okay now I take it?

Was there anyone watching you leave?  

And yes, it hurts when you hit someone  :\  just not until after the fight is done.  Last year I broke a knuckle and in the after math I realized it was on some guys nose or forehead.  Course back then I had no clue because of the amount of hits I was taking.

Write a letter, explain your complaint and your concerns.  And let EN World know which hotel it was so that we know what to expect when we go there.

Did you have to pay for the room on Saturday night?  If you did you could make some noise about that, but I doubt you would get your money back for it now.


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## The Sigil (Aug 30, 2005)

As far as common courtesy, I think a part of it is people being afraid to voice their opinions about other folks' behavior.

I was in church about a month ago and my four-year-old son was crawling all over the pews (I was busy with our two-year-old daughter, and my wife was busy with our infant).  He hurled a hymnal before I could stop him and the father behind us (who has several teenagers) gave his hand a little smack and forcibly sat him down.

After the meeting, he apologized to us for striking our son.  I told him, "hey, you did what I couldn't, and I appreciate it."  

The problem IMO is a lot of parents don't want anyone else telling junior he's doing wrong.  Every parent thinks s/he is right, even though most of us would freely admit we have no CLUE what we're doing and are just trying our best.

My kids are actually pretty doggone polite (they regularly get compliments in public, so I hope this isn't through "parent goggles"); but I think that's because they've never known any different.  Even when my oldest was a newborn and I was strapping him in the carseat, it was, "okay, give me an arm please.  Thank you.  Okay, other arm, please.  Thank you... watch out for your legs... thank you."  Even when they're being punished, it's "give the toy to daddy, please... thank you.  Now go to the naughty corner for two minutes, please."

*shrugs*

I once heard someone say that respect and love are interesting animals in that you can only control how much respect and love you give others.  You can't control how much respect and love you receive... you can't FORCE someone to respect you.  Somehow our culture seems to have become, "you must respect me, but I won't respect you" and that leads to a fundamental breakdown in civility, because you're too busy waiting for others to defer to you to defer to them first.

If you just give them the respect right of the bat, and don't worry about "getting your respect" it tends to make things go a lot easier.

--The Sigil


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## Harmon (Aug 30, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> Your wife is okay now I take it?
> 
> Was there anyone watching you leave?
> 
> ...




Ya, she's fine now.  Little annoyed, but okay.

I have started a letter and plan on finishing it tomorrow.

The Double Tree in Sacramento.  Nice place, just not to fond of the security there.

They comped us the room after the third call, but by then we were pretty much not wanting to stay.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 30, 2005)

I think it has a lot to do with where you live.  Back home in South Dakota, courtesy is (for the most part) a given.  You have your exceptions to the rule, but you can generally expect common courtesy where ever you happen to be.

Now that I live in Maryland, I do see a larger number of people (teens and adults alike) that have absolutely no care other than themselves.  I've experienced with people that I've passed in the street, as long as with people I associate with often.

It's just a matter of what you value the highest - if it is yourself, you're not as concerned with helping others or being kind to strangers.


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## diaglo (Aug 30, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> I think it has a lot to do with where you live.  Back home in South Dakota, courtesy is (for the most part) a given.  You have your exceptions to the rule, but you can generally expect common courtesy where ever you happen to be.
> 
> Now that I live in Maryland, I do see a larger number of people (teens and adults alike) that have absolutely no care other than themselves.  I've experienced with people that I've passed in the street, as long as with people I associate with often.
> 
> It's just a matter of what you value the highest - if it is yourself, you're not as concerned with helping others or being kind to strangers.




Or it could be the way you view others actions as different from your own. i don't find your statement about those in Maryland to be that true. but i don't know anyone in South Dakota so it is hard for me to do a like comparison.

I could say the same of people in state N. People in Maryland are so much more courteous than from state N.


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## glass (Aug 30, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> It's the mob mentality.  The larger the group of people a person is in, the more likely he/she is throw out his/her own morals and go along with the group.  So, kids living in a larger city would meet more kids behaving badly than would kids in a more rural setting, and so the urban kids learn earlier how to be naughty.



Yep. I seem to recall hearing that a group acts with an IQ 10 less for each factor of 10 of its population (ie 10 average people act with an IQ of 90, 100 with 80, and so on).


glass.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 30, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> Or it could be the way you view others actions as different from your own. i don't find your statement about those in Maryland to be that true. but i don't know anyone in South Dakota so it is hard for me to do a like comparison.
> 
> I could say the same of people in state N. People in Maryland are so much more courteous than from state N.



 It's not a statement specifically about Maryland, just about people in more urban areas.  I find that - outside of the midwest - courtesy is not as common place.


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## diaglo (Aug 30, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> It's not a statement specifically about Maryland, just about people in more urban areas.  I find that - outside of the midwest - courtesy is not as common place.





i don't find that to be the case.

i just find it to be different.


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Aug 30, 2005)

diaglo said:
			
		

> i don't find that to be the case.
> 
> i just find it to be different.



 Understandable - courtesy is a matter of personal interpretation, after all.  What I find to be offensive or unkind may not shake you in the slightest.  It's all a matter of what you believe as an individual.


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## diaglo (Aug 30, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> Understandable - courtesy is a matter of personal interpretation, after all.  What I find to be offensive or unkind may not shake you in the slightest.  It's all a matter of what you believe as an individual.





i'll give you three examples on 1 road trip...

the best man at my wedding, Jeff, asked me to go to Denver with him. his dad was leaving for Saudi Arabia for a job. he told Jeff to come and get whatever he wanted. jeff naturally wanted his dad's truck and a few other items.

so we bought a one way ticket to Denver. the plan was to drive back to MD. and visit a few places on the way. Bryce Canyon, Las Vegas, Grand Canyon, etc... even though some of them were not on the way back.  

anyway, we alternated driving. and when we reached new mexico we kept seeing signs for a steakhouse in Amarillo,Tx. i told jeff i wanted to stop there. free meal if you ate the whole steak...

no sooner did we cross the border then we got pulled over by the border patrol... even though, Amarillo and that part of texas ain't anywhere near the US-Mexican border... the officer wanted us to step out of the truck in the rain and open the back up... both jeff and i are insulin dependent diabetics... *syringes,* insulin, etc... in abundance plus jeff had taken his dad's guns and 1000's of rounds of ammo. all the officer wanted was to poke around to make sure we didn't have any illegals. we didn't stop in texas for the steak we kept going...  (30 minutes in the rain)

we reach st louis where my sister lives. shower, shave, .... and back on the road. just outside of st. elmo a truck trhows a hubcap and it hits us. so we decide to pullover and check the damage at the next rest stop and get gas too. an officer pulls in behind us and asks us for license, reqistration, etc.. our taillight in the back is out. he makes us empty the back of the truck when he sees one of the guns... a whole gang of teens is watching us and making comments about what we should and shouldn't do for the officer. he helped us load the truck after we asked him... we never did see the tail light out. it worked the whole time we talked to him. (3 hours of loading, unloading)

we reach maryland. get pulled over again at a drunk driving road block. not b/c we were drinking, but b/c they pulled over everyone for a check of sobriety. the officer looks at us, looks at our load and tells us to move along.  (2 minutes)


courtesy is in the eye of the beholder. i found all three officers to be doing their jobs correctly. but i found my homeboy to have it covered to my comfort level.


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## ScyldSceafing (Aug 30, 2005)

the Lorax said:
			
		

> It is a problem brought on by the increasingly corporate and service based economy that we live in.
> The squeeky wheel gets the greese.  Businesses have taught their employees to reward customers rude behavior by by granting the jerk greater attention and service.




I work in the food service industry, and this is absolutely true. Built into our training are systems designed to accomodate the most noxious behavior on the part of a customer - from simple rudeness all the way up to fraud.

In this case, a sort of 'politeness' does spring up, but it's politeness as a negative, defensive manuver: a typically servant-class ability to maintain a neutral expression and tone despite any provocation. You see this sort of corporate politeness in basically every restaurant nowadays.

I don't like it. The failure of our society to call bull---- on any jerk with a credit card makes me ill.

I'm ranting tangentially now ... sorry.


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## caudor (Aug 30, 2005)

Here in Texas, I think a third of folks are polite most of the time.  However, it seems to be a little less formal here than other places.  I often hear:

thank ya
yah come back and see us now
yes mam or sir (especially from anyone actually wearing a cowboy hat)
howdy
pardon me
Here, let me git that for ya (opening the door)

Moreso, much of the courtesy is not vocal.  I see a lot of folks nodding or waving to those passing by. Nods are very common.  It is not unusual to see a neighbor wave to me on the way home.


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## Chaldfont (Aug 30, 2005)

Several years ago my wife and I were on our first vacation--a trip to San Francisco and the Napa Valley. We had a blast--newly married, sampling wine and enjoying the beautiful weather and scenery in a convertible.

But dozens of times during our vacation, mostly at the wineries during tastings, we experience the lousy manners and general crankiness of senior citizens. The first few times we blew it off, but later we noticed a pattern. These old people were very impolite! They cut in lines! They complained about the service (even when it was exceptional)! They cut us off in traffic! They made loud, rude comments about other people!

We were amazed. All of our young lives we had been berated by our elders to be polite and have good manners. There was no practicing what you preach here! We even came up with a motto we wanted to print on t-shirts: "Have some ****ing courtesy!"

Later in life, we've come up with a theory to explain their behavior. We figured that after years and years of being hosed over by mistakes in bills, overcharges in restaurants, the bad behavior of others, etc. _they just didn't have the patience for it anymore_. Where we would generally take things in stride (like a food order mistake), these older people were just so tired of it that they spoke their mind.

I don't know if this theory is true, but I think about it everytime the phone company screws up my cell phone bill or a server adds 2-3 beers to our bill after a night out at a bar figuring we won't notice.

Hehehe. My wife and I still crack each other up, quoting this ancient guy at one of the vineyards, yelling over the top of the tour guide handing out *free* samples, "I DIDN'T GET MY SECOND GLASS OF WINE!!!!"


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## diaglo (Aug 30, 2005)

Chaldfont said:
			
		

> "I DIDN'T GET MY SECOND GLASS OF WINE!!!!"



well, i didn't. and i am still upset with them about it.


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## sniffles (Aug 30, 2005)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> After the meeting, he apologized to us for striking our son.  I told him, "hey, you did what I couldn't, and I appreciate it."
> 
> --The Sigil




Can we give you an award and have you train other parents?


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## Kahuna Burger (Aug 31, 2005)

Random comments....

The comments on "pc" vs manners were pretty telling. I think for some people, its all about "do it my way." They believe that their way is the right way, and those who stray from it - by not saying "sir" or "maam" or by expecting them to change something they say - are *wrong*. Thats not politeness, that's ettiquette. Thats about a man paying a check for a woman, and the woman thanking him in the right words. Not about picking up the check one time and letting someone else pick it up the next regardless of gender, or being gracious whichever side you fall on. 

In the midwest, they will please and thank you and hold the door on their way to vote you out of your civil rights because you're 'different'. Down south they send very courteous and 'correct' emails asking for your help in enforcing their religion on public school children. Sure its possible to have both manners and tolerance, but if I have to choose one, I'll take the tolerance.

I think if you are judging politeness by specific phrases, or modes of address, or a heirarchy of who opens the door, then yes, polite society is doomed. Personally I judge it by general consideration and acknowlegement (verbal or non) and while there's room for improvement, I think things are going ok.

Here's a snapshot of modern politeness.... A young woman (me) is standing on a subway train on her way to work, as are several men. A single seat opens up. Everyone stays standing, glancing around. If one of us spots someone with packages or a child or an older person, we gesture to the seat. If not, we all sort of stand there, akwardly unwilling to be the one who takes the seat, but equally unwilling to make someone else the "weaker" one who needs the seat. So the seat stays there until the next stop and gets filled in the bustle of more people leaving and getting on. Its odd and funny in retrospect, but it has a politeness to it....


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## reveal (Aug 31, 2005)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> It's not a statement specifically about Maryland, just about people in more urban areas.  I find that - outside of the midwest - courtesy is not as common place.




In Omaha, courtesy is a joke. You meet some nice people but you meet a lot more that aren't. In Council Bluffs, right next door, a majority of the people are a lot more courteous.

I think it all depends on perspective. I've lived in a lot of places and been where people are courteous, almost to a fault, and in places where people would spit on your rather than give you the time of day.


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## Rel (Sep 1, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> In the midwest, they will please and thank you and hold the door on their way to vote you out of your civil rights because you're 'different'. Down south they send very courteous and 'correct' emails asking for your help in enforcing their religion on public school children. Sure its possible to have both manners and tolerance, but if I have to choose one, I'll take the tolerance.




Why yes, Kahuna, it's tolerance that allows people like myself to read the sort of thing that you've written here without saying something like, "Take your rude generalizations about wide swaths of the United States and shove them where the kitty has no fur.  Sideways."

That of course would not be polite.  So thank heavens for my tolerance.


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## fusangite (Sep 1, 2005)

Chaldfont,

I have a different reaction to your post. I think the problem is that we are watching the baby boomers coming of age. They have been an arrogant, spoilt, rude, narcisitic generation at every stage -- as teenagers, as adults and now as seniors. History's most self-centred generation makes its presence felt at every stage it passes through but they don't define that age group; we've managed to produce one or two generations since of better-disciplined, harder-working young adults, despite half of them being raised by baby boomers!

In my experience, politeness has changed form. Some forms of politeness are on the rise. Others are on the decline. We do more thanking today than we did twenty years ago, for instance.


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## BlackSilver (Sep 1, 2005)

It seems to me that "PC" has been covered in this thread (post 117 & 132).  Being polite isn't about being PC, its about being kind to others.  No matter how you word it, it comes down to being polite.

Having some kindness towards others is what this thread is about, and how it seems to be reducing (I think Harmon referred to it as lacking) in our culture.

I think there has been enough hostility for a while around here, so please respect the words and beliefs of others.  

Kahuna- if you would please reframe from being hostile or at least seeming to be hostile you might be able to get your thoughts across more clearly, and they may be better received.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 1, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> Why yes, Kahuna, it's tolerance that allows people like myself to read the sort of thing that you've written here without saying something like, "Take your rude generalizations about wide swaths of the United States and shove them where the kitty has no fur.  Sideways."
> 
> That of course would not be polite.  So thank heavens for my tolerance.



of course generalizations that those areas are more polite are ok... only counter generalizations about the generalized drawbacks of the areas (both of which I have personal experience with) are bad.

And please take your passive agressive hostility somewhere else, a comment I will not dress up in cutsy "I could say but won't" BS.


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## Kahuna Burger (Sep 1, 2005)

BlackSilver said:
			
		

> Kahuna- if you would please reframe from being hostile or at least seeming to be hostile you might be able to get your thoughts across more clearly, and they may be better received.


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## diaglo (Sep 1, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> of course generalizations that those areas are more polite are ok... only counter generalizations about the generalized drawbacks of the areas (both of which I have personal experience with) are bad.
> 
> And please take your passive agressive hostility somewhere else, a comment I will not dress up in cutsy "I could say but won't" BS.




i said the same thing to Queen_D. but our banter was a bit more civilized.


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## Eridanis (Sep 1, 2005)

How ironic that a thread about courtesy has headed for angry fisticuffs. Away from each others' throats, please.


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## Rel (Sep 1, 2005)

EDIT:

Sorry, Eridanis.  I shouldn't have responded the way I did.


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## WayneLigon (Sep 1, 2005)

I had an interesting experience this morning driving in to work. I work downtown, which has many one-way streets. Out-of-towners are generally very confused by it. The main way into the heart of downtown is a four lane road. At one point it becomes a two lane road, where both rightmost and leftmost lanes must turn. The man in the leftmost lane apparently does not beleive this and starts to drift into my lane when he should be turning. I slow, and WHAM! I get rear-ended because it's morning rush-hour traffic and nothing had better slow down. No-left-turn-guy travels on... and pulls over as soon as he can. 

I get out and check. No damage. None. It wasn't a 5mph lick, but there is no damage to either car. There's a cop right there, so we all shake on it, tell him we don't want to report, and go our seperate ways. No-left-turn-guy, a young out-of-town airman just into the area, profusely apologizes to both of us, even though he wasn't involved and could have just gone off and left with no consequence.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 1, 2005)

How can common curtesy compete with the internet?

How can it compete with instant messaging?

How can it compete with the sense of entitlement the typical American has?

Sad to say, that it can't.

We don't correct bad spelling on the net because it woudl take time.

We're not polite, but direct because it's time saving.

Lose of courtesy if a byproduct of an internet age.


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## Voadam (Sep 1, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> We don't correct bad spelling on the net because it woudl take time.




You spelled "would" incorrectly, sir.


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## BlackSilver (Sep 1, 2005)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> And please take your passive agressive hostility somewhere else, a comment I will not dress up in cutsy "I could say but won't" BS.




There is no aggression here.  If I wanted to jump all over you I would, but I am not.  THis thread was started by a guy that was interested in talking about somethings that really bothered him.  People that cut in line, or people that didn't say thank you, hold a door for a woman with her baby in a carriage.  Things like that.

I am not sure if you are being aggressive because you think others are taking this as a PC thing, or that you really believe that there is no place for polite people in the world today, or if you are (I do not mean this as an insult, but more of an observation) just being a jerk (are you trying to get a flame war started?).  I don't know, truly I don't.  I can't see you, and I can't read your mind.

It is my feeling that if you treat people better then they treat you, then they will learn from that behavior and start treating others better.  It is the Karmic Wheel; what goes around comes around.

My Sensai (my first one) told me and old motherly saying- 'if you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all,' lately I have forgotten that.  We spoke recently, he saw some of the threads I have been involved in and some of the things I have written and reminded me of that tid bit.


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## Crothian (Sep 1, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Lose of courtesy if a byproduct of an internet age.




Nope, just sheer laziness and apathy


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## reveal (Sep 1, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Nope, just sheer laziness and apathy




Meh. Whatever.


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## JoeGKushner (Sep 1, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Nope, just sheer laziness and apathy





How do laziness and apathy spread?

If I don't have to correct my spelling on the internet, if I can be rude to people, and there are no consequences...

Well, perhaps that's another, bigger part of it.

There are generally no consequences for rude behaviour. Parents are not allowed to discipline their children as they used to. I'm not saying children should be beat once a day and twice on Sunday, but even the fear of being punished is not valid as children as smart enough to know that in most cases it's not going to happen.

Broad statement, but then we could talk about parents working two jobs, or not being home, or being too young to have children, or having a society where it's "cool" to be rude or a rebel, etc....


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## Crothian (Sep 1, 2005)

WEll, its also parents and watching people, this is learned behavior.  If kids see their parents or other people being rude and lazy, then they will be rude and lazy.


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## BlackSilver (Sep 1, 2005)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> How can common courtesy compete with the internet?
> 
> How can it compete with instant messaging?
> 
> ...




It takes time.  We have to want to talk to people in the right and proper fashion.  In previous times people practiced at their penmanship so that their letters would look perfect.  Of course this was in the top 5% (no exact percentages will be used for this discussion) of society, because the common folk could (for the most part) not write.

A quote I picked up from reveal really helps to make the point here. 



			
				reveal said:
			
		

> Because e-mails don't relay tone, unfortunately. I've seen situations where the sender will type something completely innocent and the receiver will take it a completely different way than intended simply because, in their mind, the "tone" of the words was bad.




Some posts and some emails you can tell that the writer was being quite angry or aggressive, but others you can't tell.  Perhaps it would be best if we assume that the writer was being kind in the way they are trying to get their idea across, instead of instantly thinking they are being a jerk or wanting to start a flame war.

It is my belief that Harmon wanted to bring the rudeness to people’s attention, to ask why it was happening, and maybe get a few people to consider their own ways of dealing with people in public.

(The ironic thing is that he left this forum looking as though he was quite rude when he just wanted to repair a broken friendship.)


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## WizarDru (Sep 1, 2005)

Some days people are a constant source of disappointment to me. 
Other days people stun me with their generosity, compassion and love.

Crazy old human race.

Hey look, the sun is out today!


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## caudor (Sep 1, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> WEll, its also parents and watching people, this is learned behavior.  If kids see their parents or other people being rude and lazy, then they will be rude and lazy.




Very true.  My kids are young adults now, but I still influence how they behave...at least when they are around me.  However, I know that others influence them too.

After they started hanging around a new group of friends, I noticed they both started using curse words and generally lacking common courtesy.  I communicated my displeasure in no uncertain terms.

That seems to have stopped to problem; although, I still often wonder if they continue to act the same way when they are with others or when I'm not around.  I've notice they behave differently at times---depending on the social setting.


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## WizarDru (Sep 1, 2005)

caudor said:
			
		

> That seems to have stopped to problem; although, I still often wonder if they continue to act the same way when they are with others or when I'm not around.  I've notice they behave differently at times---depending on the social setting.




Which makes them perfectly normal, doesn't it?  I mean, this is a core lesson we drill in children, after all.  Certain settings require behaviors once they're old enough to understand that a trip to the Mall, a funeral and wedding reception have different acceptable protocols.  I mean, think back when you were their age; didn't you act differently when it was just your friends as opposed to being in your parent presence?  When I was 14, I cursed like a red-necked sailor with my friends...if only because I could.  I pushed boundaries, until it became clear with my parents (as your kids with you) that it wasn't kosher.  Boundary established, life goes on.  I didn't look at porn while my parents were around, either (and when my mother found them, they just quietly disappeared). 

I'd like to think if you laid the solid foundation, you just have to trust that they are the people you hoped to help them be.  But I don't have to face the challenges you face for a couple of years yet, so I dunno.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 1, 2005)

We need courtesy now, especially after seeing New Orleans.

Oh, and please stop shooting at rescue workers. I understand your frustration, but you're not helping trying to hinder rescuers.

P.S. Would it be insensitive of me to observe New Orleans as a model of a post-Apoc campaign? I promise to donate to Red Cross.


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## mojo1701 (Sep 2, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> We need courtesy now, especially after seeing New Orleans.
> 
> Oh, and please stop shooting at rescue workers. I understand your frustration, but you're not helping trying to hinder rescuers.
> 
> P.S. Would it be insensitive of me to observe New Orleans as a model of a post-Apoc campaign? I promise to donate to Red Cross.




I wouldn't mind. I don't think they will, either. The only people who would mind are the looters, who are themselves guilty.


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## Sniktch (Sep 2, 2005)

I saw Courtesy not long ago in a Self Help group with Conversation.

Online, I am not always nice.  Honestly, it depends upon the mood I'm in.  But in real life, I really try to be - its the way I was raised.  And therein lies much of the problem IMHO - mch of the younger generation was raised by their TVs rather than their parents and never really learned proper respect for their fellow man.  A little respect goes a long way.


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## green slime (Sep 2, 2005)

ZuulMoG said:
			
		

> See, my dad was born in '24, my mom in '30, me in '69.  I know how to be polite, because rudeness was driven far from me, along with foolishness, via the rod of correction.
> 
> It was a sad, sad day when Cpl. Punishment had his stripes taken away.




My children are neither rude, nor foolish, neither have they ever been physically punished. Corporal punishment is banned in Sweden, and has been for decades. Its a sad day when a parent knows no other resort than physical violence in order to teach a child empathy.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 2, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> I wouldn't mind. I don't think they will, either. The only people who would mind are the looters, who are themselves guilty.



Riiiight. Like I give a rip about looters' feeling, especially those hauling out Big-Screen Plasma TVs with no working electrical outlet to plug it in somewhere in the disaster zone.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 2, 2005)

green slime said:
			
		

> My children are neither rude, nor foolish, neither have they ever been physically punished. Corporal punishment is banned in Sweden, and has been for decades. Its a sad day when a parent knows no other resort than physical violence in order to teach a child empathy.



And what do Swedes do with unruly children, because honestly, I cannot see that being nonexistent anywhere?


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## mojo1701 (Sep 2, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> And what do Swedes do with unruly children, because honestly, I cannot see that being nonexistent anywhere?




Wait until they're 18: then they become the state's problem.


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## Hijinks (Sep 2, 2005)

I have a new rudeness story.

Myself and the lady that sits next to me find it very hard to work sometimes because we sit in the middle of a thoroughfare on our floor, and nearby is where the accounting people all stand around and BS and talk loudly.  So we put up signs (with our supervisor's permission of course) that say "Quiet please!  Thank you!"  And we both wear headphones and play music so we can try to focus on our work.

This one woman walked over and stood right between our desks and said "La la la la!" really loudly.  Then when we looked at her, she said "Oh I saw your quiet sign and had to make myself known."  I just sort of smiled vaguely and tried to refocus on my work.  Then she said something that I didn't hear because of my music, so I turned off the music and took off my headphones and said "I'm sorry, what?" to which she replied "you're not laughing" (at her joke, I assume).

Um, the "quiet" sign is there for a REASON, lady!  You've now distracted me from my work twice, and not for work related crap  either!  Go AWAY!  GAWD!  And this is a supervisor of our department - you'd think she'd want us to be able to work.

As for the looting in New Orleans and elsewhere, and the people who are shooting guns and having riots, they make me ashamed to be an American.  Be scared, be worried about your home and property, be upset because of an injury, take food that's lying around rotting ...but there's no reason to riot, and there's no reason to steal crap you don't need.

I feel horrible for the people down south, but when they're on the television screaming and yelling about some stupid crap that doesn't matter, when people are trying to help them and they're too busy stealing and beating each other up, then I tend to not feel so bad.


----------



## mojo1701 (Sep 2, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I have a new rudeness story.
> 
> Myself and the lady that sits next to me find it very hard to work sometimes because we sit in the middle of a thoroughfare on our floor, and nearby is where the accounting people all stand around and BS and talk loudly.  So we put up signs (with our supervisor's permission of course) that say "Quiet please!  Thank you!"  And we both wear headphones and play music so we can try to focus on our work.
> 
> ...




Sounds like something from "Office Space."


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## Ranger REG (Sep 2, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> Wait until they're 18: then they become the state's problem.



Good luck trying to reason a child for the first 18 years of its life before you are allowed to give up.


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> And what do Swedes do with unruly children, because honestly, I cannot see that being nonexistent anywhere?




True, it exists. Yet, what you suggest would imply that the problem of unruly children should be rife in Sweden, because of the lack of corporal punishment. Of course there are always going to  be misfits in any society. Due to all sorts of reasons (which we won't get into here). In general, criminals don't think of the possibility of punishment when they commit their crimes, as they don't anticipate getting caught. Do small children really ponder the possibility of getting a thrashing before doing something wrong? After doing something wrong, a child's greatest fear must be loosing a parent's approval, respect and love. Of course, if the child feels doesn't have that to begin with....

Somehow, the idea of beating a child to teach it empathy strikes me as.... odd. There are other ways to show a child the error of its ways. Someone who resorts to violence is someone who has no ability or capacity to otherwise handle the situation. Or perhaps they are just too darn lazy.


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## Ranger REG (Sep 3, 2005)

green slime said:
			
		

> Somehow, the idea of beating a child to teach it empathy strikes me as.... odd. There are other ways to show a child the error of its ways. Someone who resorts to violence is someone who has no ability or capacity to otherwise handle the situation. Or perhaps they are just too darn lazy.



Meh. I guess if have children, I would try to find other method of parenting, but having been raised old-school (what you get for having a 49-year-old dad when you were born), I do see there are times, though rare, the need for discipline.

Such discipline would separate those who can criticize constructively over those who think it's cool to say "This sucks! You sucks!" but lack maturity and depth.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

Some of you know me IRL, some only from here on ENWorld, some from other boards, and a few from all three.

I was raised by my father. A man who joined the Army the same day the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor. His grandmother came out of the house and informed all the men on the farm that "Them damned Nips just bombed us. You boys go sign up, if you come back, I'll kill ya." And the old woman was serious.

I spent a LOT of my life locked up or in the front leaning rest position. First at home underneath the unflinching (but fair, constant and logical) discipline of my father. I did something wrong, I paid the penalty.

I remember being paddled, bare assed, with a wooden paddle, by a principal in grade school. The backs of my hands have scars from the edge of a ruler in mlitary school where I spent my summers.

I have manners. A lot of them.

I say sir and ma'am. I hold open doors, I allow ladies to go first, I smile at children, I help people who have broken down, I've carried groceries, etc.

But I'm a mean, nasty, rude son of a bitch when treated with rudeness.

But here's why I think so many people are rude.

They can get away with it, and it makes them feel cool, special, and badass.

On TV, it's the rude, sarcastic assclown whose the darling of the show. Usually an ignorant retard who puts down the polite and educated costar, and also gets the chicks.

Vulgarity is seen as being better than politeness. Only geeks or nerds are polite, the cool guys are rude and sarcastic.

Plus, they know no matter what they say to you, thier chances of getting a sock in the grill is neglible.

I punched a person in the mouth for calling my wife a foul name and said: "Not your god, [female dog]." after the first word, which started with a C, ended with a T, and wasn't CAT beacuse he sneezed and she said: "Bless you.". He was absolutely SHOCKED that I would do that, since he did it in front of my kids, disrepected my wife, and made a rude gesture.

His shocked observation was: "What was that for?"

He honestly had no clue why I felt vulgarity and profanity in front of my children aimed toward my wife was unacceptable.

You may say that my right to swing my fist ends where your skin begins, but your right to run your mouth ends when you disrespect me or mine past bearing.

But those of you that know me, know I'm gentle, nice, polite, kind and am quick to lend a helping hand.

Rudeness is on the rise, because it's free, and has no repercussions, and is cool.

Plain and simple.

And nobody is willing to stop it.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

green slime said:
			
		

> Somehow, the idea of beating a child to teach it empathy strikes me as.... odd. There are other ways to show a child the error of its ways. Someone who resorts to violence is someone who has no ability or capacity to otherwise handle the situation. Or perhaps they are just too darn lazy.



Yeah, it's working so well, isn't it. Letting little Johnny just express himself, or allowing them to empower themselves.

Violence is an acceptable solution to a situation when all other solutions have failed.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I punched a person in the mouth for calling my wife a foul name and said: "Not your god, [female dog]." after the first word, which started with a C, ended with a T, and wasn't CAT beacuse he sneezed and she said: "Bless you.". He was absolutely SHOCKED that I would do that, since he did it in front of my kids, disrepected my wife, and made a rude gesture.
> 
> His shocked observation was: "What was that for?"
> 
> ...




Wow. I'm amazed he didn't sue your butt to kingdom come.  You *expressly* don't have the right to use violence just because you've been offended.

Although I understand your sentiment, in this exchange it appears like you were the one more in the wrong.

joe b.


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Meh. I guess if have children, I would try to find other method of parenting, but having been raised old-school (what you get for having a 49-year-old dad when you were born), I do see there are times, though rare, the need for discipline.
> 
> Such discipline would separate those who can criticize constructively over those who think it's cool to say "This sucks! You sucks!" but lack maturity and depth.




I was raised by my grandfather and grandmother, in a country that does not punish a woman for slapping a tiny baby for crying. So I come from old-school, but have definitely seen the advantages of this change in attitudes in Sweden (unfortunately not in the country in which I was raised). 

I agree there is a need for discipline. I just don't see the need for physical violence. There are other ways of disciplining small children.


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's working so well, isn't it. Letting little Johnny just express himself, or allowing them to empower themselves.
> 
> Violence is an acceptable solution to a situation when all other solutions have failed.




Except it is so seldomly resorted to in a situation where all other solutions have failed. It is usually resorted to as the first solution, because it is easiest.

Nobody was talking about letting "little Johnny express himself", or "empowering little Johnny". It seems you have already there run out of alternatives. Go fists!


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> Wow. I'm amazed he didn't sue your butt to kingdom come.  You *expressly* don't have the right to use violence just because you've been offended.
> 
> Although I understand your sentiment, in this exchange it appears like you were the one more in the wrong.
> 
> joe b.




I agree completely with jgbrownings statement here. I understand completely, why you did it. The moron was running his own risks running his mouth off like that.

However, in my book there is something completely different going on with little children, and the physical violence inflicted upon them in the name of "discipline". They have no resource to turn to, in order to seek justice. They are completely in the hands of their parents.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> Wow. I'm amazed he didn't sue your butt to kingdom come.  You *expressly* don't have the right to use violence just because you've been offended.



I'm sorry, I don't believe in letting some things slide.

So he has the right to say whatever he wants, in whatever situation, no matter what effect his words have, without repercussion?

It may be the law, but it's not right.



> Although I understand your sentiment, in this exchange it appears like you were the one more in the wrong.
> 
> joe b.



He never said anything like that to my wife again, and we lived in the same small town for the next 5 years. He was polite to my wife, even though he was a wife-beating scumbag.


I'm sorry, but I FIRMLY believe that there are things that can be said that deserve a firm thrashing.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

green slime said:
			
		

> Except it is so seldomly resorted to in a situation where all other solutions have failed. It is usually resorted to as the first solution, because it is easiest.
> 
> *Nobody was talking about letting "little Johnny express himself", or "empowering little Johnny". It seems you have already there run out of alternatives. Go fists!*



LOL

I have spanked ONE of my children ONCE in the last year. One time. Two swats, on the butt, followed by a hug, a reminder of what caused it, and sending her out to play.

I know where my kids are, they get good grades, they are polite, but they are disciplined.

It's nice to see that you automatically assume that any "violence" such as a spanking must be with a closed fist.

You don't slap a crying baby, that does no good. The child does not understand why (s)he is being put into pain.

Your past history is clouding your view, making you automatically assume the worst. While corporal, physical punishment should be the last resort, the opposite is just as much, if not moreso, abuse. Not only does it mentally screw the child up, they become nothing more than a clueless, selfish, worthless member of society.

But, the debate between "Never strike a child, or use harsh words, or any form of punishments, positive reenforcement only" crowd and the "sometimes, the child must be spanked" crowd still rages hot and heavy.

Suffice to say, I doubt we'll see eye to eye.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

green slime said:
			
		

> However, in my book there is something completely different going on with little children, and the physical violence inflicted upon them in the name of "discipline". They have no resource to turn to, in order to seek justice. They are completely in the hands of their parents.



Well, that's not actually true here in the United States. (I'm assuming that you are not a US citizen, if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me)

Child protective services have been known to press abuse charges upon parents who have taken away video game systems when the child got bad grades, removed children from loving homes because of 3rd party allegations of possible abuse, and jailed parents for children that run wild.

There is a large, and growing, problem in many parts of the United States with parents being unable to enforce rules or boundaries upon a child. When a child is removed from the home, the burden of proof lies on the PARENT, not the state, to prove that no abuse was going on.

This was badly abused in the 1990's, as children used (and still do) the system in order to get revenge upon parents. Meanwhile, people are insisting that children should be able to express themselves in public (usually through screaming and acting up) or are acting up due to some fault of the parents giving them enough love and attention, and many other things.

You come from one end of the spectrum, where it sounds like it was honest and true abuse.

I deserved EVERY SINGLE BEATING my father gave me. We're not talking getting a whipping for dropping a plate while doing the dishes. I'm talking 10 stripes with a belt for gluing my twin sister to the toilet seat and then spraying her with a hose.

Before I lay my hands on my child, I make sure that I am clear headed, explaining exactly why this will be done, and asking if there is any other punishment that would be more fitting. The last spanking I gave, my 13 year old told me: "No, you've been telling me all winter, and this time I hurt someone doing what I've been punished for doing before."

She was throwing the wood into the wood stack next to the stove when she brought it in, and a piece bounced off, hit her sister in the mouth, and split her lip. She had written sentences, done pushups, been grounded, had to take the wood back and forth 10 times, stood in the corner, ran around the block 15 times, and other punishments.

She didn't throw the wood again, strangely enough.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

Hmmm, I think I see where civility might have gone...

Either there is no discipline, where the person grows into an adult with the belief they can do as they please with no repercussions.

Or there is abuse, where the person grows up angry and lashing out before someone hits them first.

Combine that with the fact that apparently it's horrible that I clocked a foul mouthed rednecked white trash loser in the mouth.

He can saw whatever he wants, to whomever he wants, wherever he wants, and nobody can do anything about it.

But when I take steps to introduce him to common decency the only way he's going to understand (we've all met the type, don't pretend you haven't) I'm the bad guy. I'm the ogre and the horrible person.

He has the right to verbally abuse my family, in a public place, bringing shame and embarrassment for nothing more than his own amusement and the amusement of his cronies.

But I'm in the wrong for taking him to task on it and making his words and gestures have a price.

I've always found that interesting.

Want to know where civility went?

Lack of personal responisibility and repercussions have killed it.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I don't believe in letting some things slide.
> 
> So he has the right to say whatever he wants, in whatever situation, no matter what effect his words have, without repercussion?
> 
> ...




And there are people who FIRMLY believe that those who disagree with them deserve a firm thrashing on principle. It is because of these people that we have the laws we have.

These types of people think the statement, "If anyone hits me, I have the right to shoot them" is morally correct. Some of them even think "If anyone bad-mouths me, I have the right to shoot them" is morally correct.

This is why using violence as a response to a verbal comment is expressly forbidden. It takes away the ability of each individual to determine *how much* violence is appropriate because each indidual's response will vary in severity. Or let me rephrase that, it gives those agressed upon violently the legal right to seek restitution against those who do not follow our laws.

In other words, It's to protect your family from people who are like yourself, but willing to use more violence.

I had my own encounter with rudeness today. Someone was waiting in a parking lot for someone to park. I waited for about a minute and honked. Nothing. I waited a bit longer and when they finally pulled in, I pulled in next to them and opened my window and yelled. "How rude!" They didn't hear so I yelled again, "How rude! You think everyone else can wait for you because you think you're more important that other people! How rude!" They got huffy like I was the rude one to mention it, but oh well.

joe b.


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

As always Warlord Ralts, truth lies in the middle ground.

You made it seem like I was advocating molly-coddling children through their faults and ego-trips. Far from it. 

Discipline is required for children to learn boundries. And while I may sincerely believe that you would not use your position to abuse your children, there are others who would, and do. 

In Sweden, physical violence against minors is forbidden, but other methods of disciplining are not. Do not your courts have a hard time trying to adjudicate what is a reasonable amount of force to discipline a child with, as opposed to abusing the child, and for society to deem what is "deserved" physical punishment for minor transgressions against good behaviour?


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Want to know where civility went?
> 
> Lack of personal responisibility and repercussions have killed it.




I can agree with this sentiment. Part of the problem is that we expect "society" to be there to provide the repercussions, yet it fails in many cases to do so.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

green slime said:
			
		

> As always Warlord Ralts, truth lies in the middle ground.



I completely agree. That's the problem, the middle ground is hard to see, and everyone usually ends up standing on one side or the other.



> You made it seem like I was advocating molly-coddling children through their faults and ego-trips. Far from it.



I apologize for that.  I realize that you might not have understood that what I thought you were advocating is the popular belief in disciplining children.

Honestly, there are people that believe that children should recieve NO negative reenforcement, and recieve only positive reenforcement and self-affirmation. Knowing now that you live in another country, and may not realize how rediculous it has gotten in places, in certian cases, here in the US, you might have thought it was a personal attack upon you, when in actuality, it was more of a sneer at the "My child is just expressing himself when he throws a fit in the store, curses at me, urinates upon the floor, and screams at the top of his lungs because he has to share the toy I am buying with his sibling." crowd.



> Discipline is required for children to learn boundries. And while I may sincerely believe that you would not use your position to abuse your children, there are others who would, and do.



I agree with the fact there are those who use thier position to abuse thier children. These people are little more than bullies or mentally ill. 



> In Sweden, physical violence against minors is forbidden, but other methods of disciplining are not. Do not your courts have a hard time trying to adjudicate what is a reasonable amount of force to discipline a child with, as opposed to abusing the child, and for society to deem what is "deserved" physical punishment for minor transgressions against good behaviour?



It depends on the area. In some places in the US, ANY physical punishment is abuse. A threat of physical abuse (IE: the threat of a spanking) is considered abuse. Both of which are grounds for the state to take away the child, and the parent must provide the burden of proof that abuse did not occur.


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> She was throwing the wood into the wood stack next to the stove when she brought it in, and a piece bounced off, hit her sister in the mouth, and split her lip. She had written sentences, done pushups, been grounded, had to take the wood back and forth 10 times, stood in the corner, ran around the block 15 times, and other punishments.
> 
> She didn't throw the wood again, strangely enough.




And was that primarily because she received a physical punishment, or because she finally saw the consequences of throwing the wood, that it could actually hurt someone and did? What hurt her the most? That she hurt her sister through her laziness and blatant disregard for your instructions (thinking she knew better), or your corporal punishment of her?


----------



## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I apologize for that.  I realize that you might not have understood that what I thought you were advocating is the popular belief in disciplining children.




I apologise for my unclear statement! I grew up in Australia and New Zealand, live in Sweden, and work, for the moment, in Iran (  )


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> And there are people who FIRMLY believe that those who disagree with them deserve a firm thrashing on principle. It is because of these people that we have the laws we have.



I can agree with that. Beating someone down for a difference of opinion or beliefs is the refuge and action of the socially inept and the bully.



> These types of people think the statement, "If anyone hits me, I have the right to shoot them" is morally correct. Some of them even think "If anyone bad-mouths me, I have the right to shoot them" is morally correct.



See above.



> This is why using violence as a response to a verbal comment is expressly forbidden. It takes away the ability of each individual to determine *how much* violence is appropriate because each indidual's response will vary in severity. Or let me rephrase that, it gives those agressed upon violently the legal right to seek restitution against those who do not follow our laws.



Actually, it coddles though who do not want to have repercussions.

Your examples above only have physical acts of violence in common with my example. Your examples are quite difference from punching someone in the mouth for a verbal barrage that can't be repeated here without a threat of banning or an actual banning being leveled against me. If I was to subject you to the same language and same statements, you would immediately call out for my banning for breaking the rules of civility on this board.

The ability to sue those who take them to task for thier mouths gave the vulgar, foul, rude and impolite the means to attack those gave them the punch in the mouth they richly deserved without any risks.

It may be the law, but that don't make it right.


> In other words, It's to protect your family from people who are like yourself, but willing to use more violence.



LOL This is too funny.

So it's OK to allow my family to be suggested to foul insuations, verbal rudeness of a vulgar and foul sort, because the laws are there to protect my family for people who would normally shoot the man for it?

Your examples don't fit.

The laws are to protect people who feel they have the right to say anything they want without repercussions. Who feel that a personal, verbal attack should be protected.



> I had my own encounter with rudeness today. Someone was waiting in a parking lot for someone to park. I waited for about a minute and honked. Nothing. I waited a bit longer and when the finally pulled in, I pulled in next to them and open my window and yelled. "How rude!" They didn't hear so I yelled again, "How rude! You think everyone else can wait for you because you think you're more important that other people! How rude!" They got huffy like I was the rude one to mention it, but oh well.
> 
> joe b.



Yeah, yours is the same. Quite the same.

SO they were waiting politely for someone to park, to make sure they didn't need to back out and cause an accident, and to keep a decent clearance, and you decided that you were inconvienced enough by this politeness to repeatedly scream at them.

Looks to me like the rudeness was on the other side.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

green slime said:
			
		

> And was that primarily because she received a physical punishment, or because she finally saw the consequences of throwing the wood, that it could actually hurt someone and did? What hurt her the most? That she hurt her sister through her laziness and blatant disregard for your instructions (thinking she knew better), or your corporal punishment of her?



It wasn't the first time she had hurt someone. Bruises mostly. She was being inconsiderate and dangerous.

Which actually hurt more? Since it was one swat on the butt with my right arm (which is weak at best and has limited mobility) I'd say it was the shame of the swat, hurting her sister again, and realizing that she had actually pushed it to the point where all that was left was a swat on the butt.

As for living in Iran now, man, my condolences.


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## green slime (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> As for living in Iran now, man, my condolences.






9 days and 1 hour to go..... and counting!


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## Rel (Sep 3, 2005)

I could probably count on one hand the number of times I've ever spanked my child.  And when I did it I always hated doing it.  But I did it for a very good reason:  When I invoke "The Daddy Voice", I need to command instant and complete compliance with my orders.

This is not because I fancy myself as some sort of iron fisted ruler over my kid.  It is for safety.  Kids have no concept of many of the things in life that are far more dangerous to them than a spanking.  It makes them innocent and sweet but also makes them a danger to themselves.

To use an example, my daughter likes to trot out to get the mail with me and my wife.  One of the first times she did this, she got out ahead of me and despite my verbal warnings for her to stop, she dashed right out into the road in order to win our "race".  Thank God no cars were coming at the moment.  I swooped in upon her, grabbed her out of the road and back into the driveway where I deliered two firm and swift pops on the bottom.  She looked at me in total shock and I got close to her face and said (in the Daddy Voice), "When I tell you to stop, you STOP!  Immediately!"  Then I gave her a big hug and told her that I was glad she was safe and explained about the danger of cars.

Was the spanking in response to this situation "lazy parenting"?  I don't know and I don't care.  I do know that it was effective.  Although she still loves going to get the mail with us, she never ever sets foot in the street and doesn't stray out of arms reach when we get near the road.

I'd never consider spanking her for every minor infraction or misdeed.  But it is important for her safety that she obey me when I tell her in no uncertain terms what to do.  It seems that when all she has to fear is "time out" that she is much more likely to want to "negotiate" than to obey.

So there's one father's anecdote.  Make of it what you will.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Your examples above only have physical acts of violence in common with my example.




Yes. Quite rightly. That was my *point.*

As soon as you think it's right for *you* to exercise your judgment as to when someone has been rude enough to deserve a punch, you are *defacto* saying that others have the right to use their judgement about when it's ok to punch rude people. Or your saying that *only you* have the right or your saying that only people who agree with your assessment of the situation have the right, which is wrong—you're not special, neither am I, we're not better than everyone else in the eyes of the law. Also, you open the door to the idea of perhaps even being justified in using even more force against rude people because, "They were so rude they deserved *two* punches."

Your interpretation of what is justification is the reason why the law doesn't let people interpret using violence against rudeness. Because legally, your interpretation is wrong.



> Your examples are quite difference from punching someone in the mouth for a verbal barrage that can't be repeated here without a threat of banning or an actual banning being leveled against me. If I was to subject you to the same language and same statements, you would immediately call out for my banning for breaking the rules of civility on this board.
> 
> The ability to sue those who take them to task for thier mouths gave the vulgar, foul, rude and impolite the means to attack those gave them the punch in the mouth they richly deserved without any risks.
> 
> It may be the law, but that don't make it right.




Again you don't see my point. The point of the law is to *not allow* people the option of using violence at all in response to a verbal insult because what's insulting varies from person you person.

You don't think it's appropriate to shoot someone because they insulted your wife. Someone else might. The law means that individuals don't get to choose legally to use violence *of any type* because removing that choice completely makes it pretty crystal clear about what's acceptable and what's not.   ie. using violence at all in response to a verbal insult (any insult, not just what you think as an insult, but what anyone thinks as an insult) is not legally allowed.



> So it's OK to allow my family to be suggested to foul insuations, verbal rudeness of a vulgar and foul sort, because the laws are there to protect my family for people who would normally shoot the man for it?
> 
> Your examples don't fit.




Actually they do. If say, in a moment of frustration your wife is rude, (we all are at some time after all) and someone punches her. Would you be ok with that? I mean all the other guy did is what you did— excercised his "right" to use violence when confronted by rudeness. It doesn't matter that you, or she, or me, or anyone wouldn't think that what she did was bad enough (as how you thought of what the guy said to your wife *was* bad enough) to justify a punch in the face, because only the other guy's interpretation of what's rude enough for a hit is what make it right, not what is legal or not legal under your working operations. Using your belief, the other man is even *right* in teaching your wife a lessen not to mouth off. She needed to be FIRMLY delt with.

I bet you'd get pretty fricken angry and may use more violence on the guy because he punched your wife. Or if you don't, I imagine I'd see you taking the guy to court.

I don't think what the guy did to your wife is right. I also, dont think what you did was right either. I'm trying to explain why individuals don't have the right to do what you did. It protects people from the violent incident initially, and prevents a spiral of potential violence as one side tries to "right" what was wronged.

Individuals don't have the right or authority to escalate the violence level except in situations where they are fearful for their life. This is a pretty good idea after you give it some thought.



> The laws are to protect people who feel they have the right to say anything they want without repercussions. Who feel that a personal, verbal attack should be protected.




No, the laws are designed because someone calling you a name or being mean and you reacting with violence isn't civil behavior. The old, two wrong don't make a right thing. You and your wife and your family should either ignore him and realize he's an jerk or respond verbally informing him that he's a jerk. That's civil behavior in response to incivility.



> Yeah, yours is the same. Quite the same.
> 
> SO they were waiting politely for someone to park, to make sure they didn't need to back out and cause an accident, and to keep a decent clearance, and you decided that you were inconvienced enough by this politeness to repeatedly scream at them.
> 
> Looks to me like the rudeness was on the other side.




Yeah, I was really rude. I mean, who'd expect them to park 50 ft. away in the unoccupied part of the parking lot? I mean, it's much better to force a young mother to rush and hurry putting her kid away in a car seat while forcing two people in one car and another person in a car behind that one to wait than it is to walk 50ft because you want to park right infront of the store's doors. No, I wasn't the rude one. Not by a long shot. They believed that everyone can hurry or wait for them—that they were the important ones.

But if I believed the way you did (ie. that each individual is morally right in deciding when to apply violence against rudeness), I would feel justified in getting out of my car and puching the rude driver of the car that made me wait.

joe b.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> As soon as you think it's right for *you* to exercise your judgment as to when someone has been rude enough to deserve a punch, you are *defacto* saying that others have the right to use their judgement about when it's ok to punch rude people.



This one.



> Your interpretation of what is justification is the reason why the law doesn't let people interpret using violence against rudeness. Because legally, your interpretation is wrong.



Yeah, but that doesn't make it wrong morally.



> Again you don't see my point. The point of the law is to *not allow* people the option of using violence at all in response to a verbal insult because what's insulting varies from person you person.



What the law does is protect people who are being rude from cashing those checks thier mouth is writing.



> You don't think it's appropriate to shoot someone because they insulted your wife. Someone else might. The law means that individuals don't get to choose legally to use violence *of any type* because removing that choice completely makes it pretty crystal clear about what's acceptable and what's not.   ie. using violence at all in response to a verbal insult (any insult, not just what you think as an insult, but what anyone thinks as an insult) is not legally allowed.



You've got a thing against violence period, don't you?

Trust me, being hit in the mouth isn't nearly as bad as being shot.,

I know it's not legal to punch him in the mouth, but you know what, I guarentee you, there are certian things that can be said that will make you punch someone in the mouth.





> Actually they do. If say, in a moment of frustration your wife is rude, (we all are at some time after all) and someone punches her. Would you be ok with that? I mean all the other guy did is what you did— excercised his "right" to use violence when confronted by rudeness. It doesn't matter that you, or she, or me, or anyone wouldn't think that what she did was bad enough (as how you thought of what the guy said to your wife *was* bad enough) to justify a punch in the face, because only the other guy's interpretation of what's rude enough for a hit is what make it right, not what is legal or not legal under your working operations. Using your belief, the other man is even *right* in teaching your wife a lessen not to mouth off. She needed to be FIRMLY delt with.



Whatever man.

You want to figure you can smack my wife around, you go with your bad self.

You don't get the whole thing, do you? But that's OK, I could explain till I'm blue in the fact, and all you'd understand is that I hit the guy for his words, and it's wrong, so I'm wrong.

Face it, we'll NEVER see eye to eye on this.

I believe violence is an acceptable solution to some things.

You don't.

BUT, unlike you, I'm not going to try to force my views on you or harangue you until you decide to give in.


> I bet you'd get pretty fricken angry and may use more violence on the guy because he punched your wife. Or if you don't, I imagine I'd see you taking the guy to court.



hehehehee

Well, if he hauled off and hit a woman, what do you think I'd do?

As for suing? I've never sued anyone for a physical confrontation.


> I don't think what the guy did to your wife is right. I also, dont think what you did was right either. I'm trying to explain why individuals don't have the right to do what you did. It protects people from the violent incident initially, and prevents a spiral of potential violence as one side tries to "right" what was wronged.



And so the guy goes on a cursing spree against my family, and I just stand there and take it or MAYBE tell him he's a jerk when he moves to block us from going somewhere because he wants to stand there and scream.

Screw that.



> Individuals don't have the right or authority to escalate the violence level except in situations where they are fearful for their life. This is a pretty good idea after you give it some thought.



No, I don't. I have NEVER thought it was a good idea. The constant reliance of authorities to protect you has dangerous consquences.



[qote]No, the laws are designed because someone calling you a name or being mean and you reacting with violence isn't civil behavior. The old, two wrong don't make a right thing. You and your wife and your family should either ignore him and realize he's an jerk or respond verbally informing him that he's a jerk. That's civil behavior in response to incivility.[/quote]
Naw, I'd already informed him of that. He just got more abusive.




> Yeah, I was really rude. I mean, who'd expect them to park 50 ft. away in the unoccupied part of the parking lot? I mean, it's much better to force a young mother to rush and hurry putting her kid away in a car seat while forcing two people in one car and another person in a car behind that one to wait than it is to walk 50ft because you want to park right infront of the store's doors. No, I wasn't the rude one. Not by a long shot. They believed that everyone can hurry or wait for them—that they were the important ones.



Yeah, you weren't rude. You just rolled up and screamed at them.

Seriously, you could have ignored that, and to tell the truth, what I was talking about is a LOT worse.

You WERE rude. What they did, while selfish and rude, was not like pulling up and screaming at them like a deranged lunatic.

You WERE rude, but you can't see it.


> But if I believed the way you did (ie. that each individual is morally right in deciding when to apply violence against rudeness), I would feel justified in getting out of my car and puching the rude driver of the car that made me wait.



That's fine with me. You know, maybe a sock to the grill, and the driver wouldn't sit there and make people wait.

You just better hope that he's not willing to beat on you back.


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## mojo1701 (Sep 3, 2005)

I think we're getting a little off-track here, and possibly hitting the political.


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## Aesmael (Sep 3, 2005)

I am pleased to say that I still see a fair amount of courtesy and politeness in my life, and I try to do my bit to spread this by example. Both when I was in school and now using the 'adult' public transport system it is usual to hear people thanking the bus driver at the end of their journey. Although I don't remember if I have ever had cause to give up my seat to someone else, I do make a point of letting people who I know have been waiting longer get on first and I am happy to help anyone in need of directions (unfortunately I once misdirected someone by mistake - couldn't find them again to fix it though).

At university it is usual for people to hold doors for one another, of either sex, and they are almost guarranteed a thank you for the effort and people don't seem to have any problem asking a stranger for help if they need, for example, directions or to change some money. I have experienced this on both ends several times and the exchange has always been polite even if people don't get what they were after.

I study astronomy there and the observatory is located in an out of the way part of my campus which sees little traffic. We also have a bus service to carry students distances it would be impractical to expect them to walk. Because the observatory is so out of the way the bus generally does not run past the late afternoon, yet the driver (Jim) was kind enough to give me his mobile number in case I needed him to swing by one last time. Only needed to put him out like that once, thankfully  

When I am crossing the road and people stop for me I make a point of giving them a nod of acknowledgement. At least once it was returned, which made my day because now I _know_ it is not a wasted effort. The other day I was feeling a bit down and was walking to uni pretty much withdrawn into myself (walking on automatic, y'know?) when a complete stranger on his way out bid me good afternoon. Really perked me up, that did. Of course I returned the gesture when I realised what had happened.

Of course I realise that there are jerks out there, but apparently I have been fortunate enough to have had essentially no contact with them. Even in the neighbourhood with the bad reputation people seemed more amused than moved to abuse or violence with the guy twirling his umbrella in the wind and singing songs from _The Sound of Music_ (admittedly it was under my breath, but hey, I'd just come from seeing my girlfriend. It is allowed).

For anyone who hasn't seen it, I heartily recommend the movie _Harvey_. One of my very favourites.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

mojo1701 said:
			
		

> I think we're getting a little off-track here, and possibly hitting the political.



Off track, yeah. Political, naw. We're just discussing the legality and civility of resorting to physical violence.

I agree with a lot of his post, and I don't deny it's legality, I just believe it's wrong. That's not politics, no political entity or party has been brought into the discussion.

I'll admit we're off track slightly, but not at all political.

Say, JG, what'ya say we drop it, since we've pretty much beat it to death and aren't going to move each other opinions? Besides, I think the issue on both of our sides is way to complex to easily discuss on an internet forum.

People can disagree over laws and the actions of civility without being political.




Sheesh.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Say, JG, what'ya say we drop it, since we've pretty much beat it to death and aren't going to move each other opinions? Besides, I think the issue on both of our sides is way to complex to easily discuss on an internet forum.
> 
> People can disagree over laws and the actions of civility without being political.
> 
> Sheesh.




Edit I deleted my original post because I wrote it before I read your long response. What you wrote changed my viewpoint of the situation.

To be crystal, I think it'll be funny (but not hah-hah funny) when you meet someone who feels exactly the way you do about have having a *moral right to do violence as they choose to you for what reason they choose.*

Yes, we'll never agree. And you'll probably still think you actions are justified even when you're on the unjust receiving end and it's the other guy who's wrong. And you'll think this because he just can't see when it's right and when it's wrong to use violence to solve a non-violent problem. In other words, his ideas of *when* it's the morally right time to use (violence and how much violence to use) against someone who's rude don't match up with *yours.*

And, again, this ain't the place to talk about this, because I don't believe that hitting people you disagree with is civil, has ever been civil, nor ever will be civil. Even when they're rude, obnoxious people.

And ENworld is civil.

So I'm outta this conversation. Goodbye and welcome to being first and only on my ignore list.

joe b.


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## jgbrowning (Sep 3, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> Yeah, you weren't rude. You just rolled up and screamed at them.
> 
> Seriously, you could have ignored that, and to tell the truth, what I was talking about is a LOT worse.
> 
> ...




To clairify my behavior:

I didn't scream nor curse nor do anything deranged. I yelled because it's hard to hear someone from inside of a car talking to someone outside of a car about 15 feet away. No screaming, no drama. I only used the amount of volume needed to be heard. I would have got out of the car, but I think I'd scare them. I'm not a friendly looking guy when annoyed.

I think I was only rude if pointing out that someone else is rude, is rude.

joe b.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

jgbrowning said:
			
		

> To be crystal, I think it'll be funny (but not hah-hah funny) when you meet someone who feels exactly the way you do about have having a *moral right to do violence as they choose to you for what reason they choose.*



I have. Quite a few times.



> So I'm outta this conversation. Goodbye and welcome to being first and only on my ignore list.
> 
> joe b.



OK. I was trying to dial it down and be civil. Frankly, I'm surprised you'd put me on ignore over a minor disagreement in moral stances, personal beliefs, and a discussion.



> I didn't scream nor curse nor do anything deranged. I yelled because it's hard to hear someone from inside of a car talking to someone outside of a car about 15 feet away. No screaming, no drama. I only used the amount of volume needed to be heard. I would have got out of the car, but I think I'd scare them. I'm not a friendly looking guy when annoyed.



Thank you for the clarification. Then I was mistaken that you were rude.


I edited out a lot of what I was going to write when I realized it would have been childish of me.

JG, if I'm on your ignore list for professing my personal beliefs, and telling you that my opinion differs from yours, and then attempting to civilly and politely pour oil on troubled waters, after your claim that ENWorld is a civil place, you've pretty much given lie to ENWorld being a civil place, and thrown my attempt at a polite resolution back in my face.

Thank you for the ignore, in that case, I won't have to worry about you blathering about a post I made. You've done me more of a service then you, if you're unable to carry on a discussion involving different viewpoints.


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## Aust Diamondew (Sep 3, 2005)

One of the first things I noticed when I moved up to PA from Virginia in the 8th grade (I'd lived in VA the previous 9 years) was that people were indeed less courteous and some would actually make fun of you for being courteous!

So I'll  once more state the fact that in the South there is still some 'Southern Hospitality' left.


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Sep 3, 2005)

Aust Diamondew said:
			
		

> One of the first things I noticed when I moved up to PA from Virginia in the 8th grade (I'd lived in VA the previous 9 years) was that people were indeed less courteous and some would actually make fun of you for being courteous!



I've noticed that in television and movies.

That it's cool to be rude and arrogant, while it's geeky to be polite and civil.

Part of the problem or a relfection?


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## nonamazing (Sep 4, 2005)

Human beings are weird animals, man.

See, the thing is, human beings _literally_ need one another to survive--we can't make it on our own.  Weeell, okay, I'll grant you that a well-prepared and well-trained human might be able to live "off the land", generating all the resources he needs to survive without help from anyone else.  But not only is that a very rare scenario, where did he get that training and preperation from in the first place?  Other human beings, I'd wager.

We *need* each other in order to survive--it's that simple.  I didn't make the food I'm eating, and I didn't generate the electricity that powers the computer that lets me communicate with you.  I'm part of a web of interdependance that connects me, however periphally, to hundreds of thousand of other human beings.

In an interdependant society, politeness (true politeness, that is: *intention*, and not just words) is very important; it's an echo of the connection that we share that is vital to our survival.  It is a way of acknowledging that you and I work together, that I respect you because you are important to my life, even if only in a very, very minor way.  In an interdependant society, we all more or less agree to grant one another the same level of respect, and as long as we do, things work quite well.

But as you've all noted, things don't always go as smoothly as my theory would suggest.  Why?  Because although we need other human beings in order to survive, mutual interdependance is not the only way to ensure that survival.  Another way is to prey on other humans, acting as predator or parasite.  Usually this involves taking what you want by force (ie, robbery) but it can also take a variety of different forms.  For an example, after many recent major disasters (September 11 in particular) some predators would head to supermarkets, malls, and other areas where large crowds could be found and begin collecting money 'to aid in disaster relief'--but in actuality keeping all such funds gained.

One thing that I feel has helped contribute to the decline in politeness is the huge growth in predators and parasites within our society.  Not only have many of these people corrupted and twisted tradtional forms of politness in order to suit their needs (telemarketers, in my opinion, have done much of this because of their incessant use of polite words without any true intention of politeness or respect), but because as people feel preyed upon, they become more defensive, more removed from their web of interdependance and thus less likely to feel the need to be polite or respectful to others.  This can become evident in large cities, where predators are numerous and self-isolation is surprisingly easy, even surrounded by thouands of people.  (It might even be theorized that people who become severely self-isolated might in turn become more inclined toward predatory or parasitical behavior.)

So to summarize, politeness is important when human beings are living together in an agreeable state of interdependance.  But when even a few humans take it upon themselves to take advantage of this system, their actions diminish us all.


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## BlackSilver (Sep 6, 2005)

*A rude couple of days*

The level of rudeness in society sometimes is just so overwhelming I can’t think straight.  A few things happened that I want to share, cause there is no one home but me and I want to rant a bit.

Day before yesterday- a fellow on a bicycle waiting on the curb for the walk light to change goes when it turns red for him to go across and us (in cars) to go.  He walks his bike across the street slow enough that no one can make it through the light.  It was surely a gesture for attention in my eyes, but it was very rude.


Two things happened today- one while I was at the store the other one the way home, first the store incident.  I have a cart full of stuff, and I am waiting on the elderly woman just ahead of me to write her check.  Behind me is a guy with a six-pack of sodas.  “You want to go ahead of me?”  To which he replies- “rather be behind you,” with his leer I have an idea what he means, but I let him go ahead in any case.  He strikes up a conversation, that I do not respond to, he takes the hint and shuts up, but eventually says- “now if this old, (something), would get out of the (something) way I could get out of here.”

No thank you, first off, then makes the comment, and lastly the one that really pushed my buttons.  The cashier caught all of it, and said not a thing to him that she didn’t have to say.  His transaction done he took flight out of the store.  In the parking lot, I helped the elderly woman with a couple of her heavier bags, and she thanked me.  “Children these days,” she said, to which I replied “its not the generation, it’s the individual.  Don’t blame us all for his actions.”  She blessed me and thanked me again.

On my way home was my last incident.  One of the roads I have to travel is a four lane.  At the intersection there is an additional right hand turn lane and a left hand turn lane.  I have to turn right so I am in the right hand turn lane, but there are ten cars ahead of me, making the turn slowly.  A car with two guys in it pulls up to the light in the right most none turn lane.

The driver decides that he should pull in front of me (the last car in the turn lane) so that he too can make a right hand turn.  I hit my breaks to avoid taking off his right rear bumper, throw half my groceries from the passenger’s seat onto the floor where the other half are located (half the eggs are destroyed, bread and noodles smashed, etc.).  To add insult to injury the passenger flips me off and yells what I think is- “wait your (something) turn, (something).”

I take a breath and make the turn.  

Over the years I have tried to avoid bad karma, but we can’t help acquiring a bit, so perhaps this is just that bad karma coming back around, or maybe its just a day that I am being tested.  So I am taking a breath, posting this, shutting down my computer and going to meditate for an hour to calm myself.  Thank you for reading this.


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## MaxKaladin (Sep 7, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> I've noticed that in television and movies.
> 
> That it's cool to be rude and arrogant, while it's geeky to be polite and civil.
> 
> Part of the problem or a relfection?



It's some of both, I think.  

Another example:  Ever notice how in recent decades calling someone a "boy scout" has become a derisive term?  They strive to be nice, polite and courteous and stress doing the right thing.  {Sarcasm}How horrible!{/Sarcasm}  (And let's not talk about the politics of the organization, please -- that's not what people are referring to in this context)


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## MaxKaladin (Sep 7, 2005)

A thought that strikes me (no pun intended) about the whole violence discussion.  It seems to me that this sort of thing is why many cultures developed codes of conduct of various kinds.  On the one hand, they recognized that they couldn't have everyone just running around using violence whenever they felt like it.  On the other hand, they also realized that if there was no means of response to provocation (of whatever kind), it simply gave people a license to say and do whatever they wanted short of physical violence.  They made an attempt to achieve some sort of balance between the two.  I think that balance is what our society is missing.  There is legal recourse for verbal abuse in our society, but the leal processes involved are so expensive and time consuming that they are rarely used and this gives rude people license to be rude since they know they will rarely be called to task for it in any meaningful way.  

I am reminded of the worst bullies I had to deal with when I was a kid.  It wasn't the ones who tried to beat me up.  It was the ones who used verbal abuse and other annoyance techniques to make my life miserable.  They had become masters of knowing just where the line between verbal and physical confrontation was and staying just on the safe side of it because they knew they wouldn't be punished in any significant way for verbal abuse (an admonishment to "cut it out" was about the worst they could expect from most adults) and they knew that the punishment inflicted on anyone who resorted to violence was severe enough to make me extremely reluctant to resort to violence to try to stop them.  In effect, the rules designed to protect people from physical violence also served to protect the bullies.  I'm not trying to argue those rules should be done away with, but that they create another problem that needs to be addressed.


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## Arnwyn (Sep 7, 2005)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> You want to figure you can smack my wife around, you go with your bad self.



What the hell is that all about?

You quite possibly have the worst reading skills I've seen yet at ENWorld if you came up with that response.


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## WizarDru (Sep 8, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Another example:  Ever notice how in recent decades calling someone a "boy scout" has become a derisive term?  They strive to be nice, polite and courteous and stress doing the right thing.  {Sarcasm}How horrible!{/Sarcasm}  (And let's not talk about the politics of the organization, please -- that's not what people are referring to in this context)




Well, I could comment that some people consider the politics of the organization as part of the reason that the boy scouts no longer hold the esteem they once did, but that's not really the connotation involved (and yes, I was one, back in the day).

However, I don't think anyone's holding 'boy scout' as an example of an insult, any more than being a "braniac", "know it all" or "an old softie".  It's said with a smirk and sometimes meant almost as a grudging complement.  Example: Superman is often referred to as the 'big boy scout' in the Justice League animated series, a title that is meant with more than a little bit of respect...a point driven home when Captain Marvel joins the League and Superman is more than a little jealous of losing the title.


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## BlackSilver (Sep 8, 2005)

Is there a point to talking about violence in this thread or did I miss something?  

The point of this thread is to give us a place to talk about the lack of polite behavior in our world today.  Please reframe from violent activities or speaking of them in a place where we want to talk about being polite.


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## MaxKaladin (Sep 8, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Well, I could comment that some people consider the politics of the organization as part of the reason that the boy scouts no longer hold the esteem they once did, but that's not really the connotation involved (and yes, I was one, back in the day).



Right, that's not the connotation I'm talking about.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> However, I don't think anyone's holding 'boy scout' as an example of an insult, any more than being a "braniac", "know it all" or "an old softie".  It's said with a smirk and sometimes meant almost as a grudging complement.  Example: Superman is often referred to as the 'big boy scout' in the Justice League animated series, a title that is meant with more than a little bit of respect...a point driven home when Captain Marvel joins the League and Superman is more than a little jealous of losing the title.



I know some people use it like you mention, but I've also heard it used with the same sort of annoyance, aggrivation and general distaste some people have when the paladin in the party is being actively Lawful Good (or they may call it "Lawful Stupid" or something like that).  I've also heard "brainiac" and "know it all" used in the same way.


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