# Spring's D&D Release Will Be Ship-Themed



## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

WotC's Kate Welch and Nathan Stewart talked about the next big D&D release a little bit on tonight's _Spoilers & Swag_ streamed chat. They mentioned that the full reveal is coming at a later date, but it will be a ship based product.  It's almost done, but cover and title are not yet finalized.

Other notes from the chat:

There will be 3-4 big releases this year, with plans for spring, summer, and fall.
There will be no Spelljammer this year.
In 2020, there will be a couple of products that will touch on cultures that don't usually get exposure in their products — “I will say that in 2019 I don’t think that we’re going to get much more culturally diverse with the content that’s in there, but in 2020 we’re going to go…really…lots of different diverse stuff that brings in some different cultures and some different influences. We’re bringing in a lot of consultants this year to kind of vet the product…make this stuff… You won’t see much of it in 2019, but 2020 products I think will have a couple major products that have a lot of influence from cultures that we have not really touched on before that I think are pretty prevalent. I don’t want to give away too much, but I’m proud of the influences and the work that they’re doing, and how they’re doing it.”
The ship book will be a Spring release. The big Fall products will be announced during their big stream event May 17-19.
When asked about how the Eberron PDF experiment did, Nathan Stewart's response: "It was great, but we can't talk about it further."
​They have a team of 25 people.
They also mentioned some joke names for the ship-based product, and four mock covers with the words "Everything you need to float your boat for the world's greatest roleplaying game."

There was an Unearthed Arcana playtest article a couple of months back called _Ships & The Sea_.


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## Yunru (Jan 4, 2019)

Captain's log, realmdate 25b.
_Tales of the Spelljammer Enterprise_


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Also mentioned: "All we are prepared to tell you is that there will be no Spelljammer this year."


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 4, 2019)

When I think about ships in D&D if it is not Spelljammer, then the answer should be Red Steel/Savage Coast, a spin-off of Mystara.


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> Also mentioned: "All we are prepared to tell you is that there will be no Spelljammer this year."




Now, is this the book Kate has been workign on? because, if so, that's interesting, as it probably isn't an AP...


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Now, is this the book Kate has been workign on? because, if so, that's interesting, as it probably isn't an AP...




The book that Kate's working on is the ship book.


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> The book that Kate's working on is the ship book.




Eeeeeeenteresting...


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

In 2020, there will be a couple products that will touch on cultures that don't usually get exposure in their products.


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> In 2020, there will be a couple products that will touch on cultures that don't usually get exposure in their products.




Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and/or Maztica...?


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

Did they give any indication if this is a late Winter or late Spring sort of release?

It strikes me that a Volo/Mordy-style book with nautical monster lore and additional rules for sea and ship related stuff would be awesome.


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and/or Maztica...?




Quite possibly! It was in response to a question asking if they were going to delve into a campaign featuring Africa or another area we haven't seen before. If not those campaigns specifically, we could get something like them, but it'll probably be those in some form.


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Did they give any indication if this is a late Winter or late Spring sort of release?
> 
> It strikes me that a Volo/Mordy-style book with nautical monster lore and additional rules for sea and ship related stuff would be awesome.




The ship book will be a Spring release. The big Fall products will be announced during their big stream event May 17-19.


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## Satyrn (Jan 4, 2019)

Yunru said:


> Captain's log, realmdate 25b.
> _Tales of the Spelljammer Enterprise_




I'm in!

*Quickly throws on gold shirt over the red one*

I'll be on the bridge.


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## Arnwolf666 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and/or Maztica...?




This is what interested me. I don’t care what setting or culture. I just want something besides medieval Europe. Stone Age, Bronze Age, Persian, Mesopotamia, India, Southeast Asia, urban arcana, old
West, Victorian, anything but medieval Europe.


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## Bitbrain (Jan 4, 2019)

Arnwolf666 said:


> This is what interested me. I don’t care what setting or culture. I just want something besides medieval Europe . . . *India, Southeast Asia.*




^You're looking for _Yoon-Suin: the Purple Land_, at least for these two.


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> The ship book will be a Spring release. The big Fall products will be announced during their big stream event May 17-19.




So this is set to release significantly earlier than MToF, since that came out on 5/29 last year and the Stream of Annihilation was the next week...

ANy hint as to whether we are looking at three or four big books this year?


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## kesnir (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm excited for a naval themed supplement, ship combat is great fun


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> So this is set to release significantly earlier than MToF, since that came out on 5/29 last year and the Stream of Annihilation was the next week...
> 
> ANy hint as to whether we are looking at three or four big books this year?




All they kept saying was "3-4 big releases." However, when asked about how the Eberron PDF experiment did, Nathan Stewart's response: "It was great, but we can't talk about it further." It makes me think we're going to be seeing more of that!


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> All they kept saying was "3-4 big releases." However, when asked about how the Eberron PDF experiment did, Nathan Stewart's response: "It was great, but we can't talk about it further." It makes me think we're going to be seeing more of that!




Interesting, that suggests they have some stuff up in the air still, in terms of whether a fourth book makes it this year.


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## Henry (Jan 4, 2019)

For someone named "Vecna," you sure spill a lot of secrets... ;-)

Thanks for the heads up, BTW!


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Henry said:


> For someone named "Vecna," you sure spill a lot of secrets... ;-)
> 
> Thanks for the heads up, BTW!




I just like to pass on what I hear...I mean watch!


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Interesting, that suggests they have some stuff up in the air still, in terms of whether a fourth book makes it this year.




They did mention they have a team of 25 people. So a fourth book could feasibly slip out of the calendar year depending on how the work goes on it.


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## Henry (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> I just like to pass on what I hear...I mean watch!




The best of the Hand-picked news, I'm sure!


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> They did mention they have a team of 25 people. So a fourth book could feasibly slip out of the calendar year depending on how the work goes on it.




My pet hypothesis is that they are looking to do a full hardcover Eberron book, and that might depend on how testing goes for the final Artificer...


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> My pet hypothesis is that they are looking to do a full hardcover Eberron book, and that might depend on how testing goes for the final Artificer...




Indeed, they're going to take a deeper plunge in Eberron this year and the hardcover is pretty much a given. I believe it was the last Happy Fun Hour, where Mearls had mentioned that the next iteration of the Artificer is coming "Soon. Not this month, but soon." Could very well be a January drop!

I'm looking forward to seeing any of the smaller things they might do, like possibly more campaign setting pdfs!


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> Indeed, they're going to take a deeper plunge in Eberron this year and the hardcover is pretty much a given. I believe it was the last Happy Fun Hour, where Mearls had mentioned that the next iteration of the Artificer is coming "Soon. Not this month, but soon." Could very well be a January drop!
> 
> I'm looking forward to seeing any of the smaller things they might do, like possibly more campaign setting pdfs!




They have been working on the Artificer for two years at this point. If the next iteration meets public approval, it'll be go time.

I see Dark Sun going a similar way in the next year or so.


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> They have been working on the Artificer for two years at this point. If the next iteration meets public approval, it'll be go time.
> 
> I see Dark Sun going a similar way in the next year or so.




I really hope so, I need me some Dark Sun!

Also, would not be surprised if the POD for Wayfinder's Guide is ready by its one year anniversary if the Artificer is good to go.


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

Another report can be seen here:

https://comicbook.com/gaming/2019/01/04/dungeons-and-dragons-2019-book-nautical/


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Another report can be seen here:
> 
> https://comicbook.com/gaming/2019/01/04/dungeons-and-dragons-2019-book-nautical/




That about sums up everything that was talked about. However, they missed something important: one of the mock-ups was called "Boats and " which is fantastic!


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> That about sums up everything that was talked about. However, they missed something important: one of the mock-ups was called "Boats and " which is fantastic!




I kind of hope they keep "Everything you need to float your boat for the world's greatest roleplaying game."

I am getting a strong "Volo's with more boats" vibe here, which I dig.


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

I forgot, I have screencaps!

View attachment 103948
View attachment 103951
View attachment 103949
View attachment 103950


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> I forgot, I have screencaps!
> 
> View attachment 103948
> View attachment 103951
> ...




The first and fourth look like they might be legit cover art, though the names seem like goofs. I recall that titles for 5E books have been usually decided late in development, as legal clears a number of possibilities for trademark.


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## WaterRabbit (Jan 4, 2019)

They should definitely go with the fourth cover.


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## vecna00 (Jan 4, 2019)

Someone 100% made my original post about 300 times better, you are the real hero here!


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## vpuigdoller (Jan 4, 2019)

I'm still hoping for a pirate-themed adventure in the high seas.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Did they give any indication if this is a late Winter or late Spring sort of release?
> 
> It strikes me that a Volo/Mordy-style book with nautical monster lore and additional rules for sea and ship related stuff would be awesome.



That's what I'm leaning towards myself - a book with rules for ships and underwater adventuring, a section on water-based PC races (possibly reprinting sea elves and tritons, but adding new options like merfolk and locathah), and a bestiary focusing on aquatic creatures and nautical NPCs. Possibly a short adventure as well...


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## qstor (Jan 4, 2019)

No Greyhawk love


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

vpuigdoller said:


> I'm still hoping for a pirate-themed adventure in the high seas.




Not a zero-sum game, could be one of those coming too: but I don't think Kate's book will be an AP.


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

qstor said:


> No Greyhawk love




No reason to say that: MToF was a Greyhawk-centric book.


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## Bitbrain (Jan 4, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> That's what I'm leaning towards myself - a book with rules for ships and underwater adventuring, a section on water-based PC races (possibly reprinting sea elves and tritons, but adding new options like merfolk and locathah), and a bestiary focusing on aquatic creatures and nautical NPCs. Possibly a short adventure as well...




This would be perfect.

And if the PC options included Tritons, Merfolk, Sahuagin, and some kind of Crabfolk, I'll actually be able to run a game based on the new _Aquaman_ film!


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## Parmandur (Jan 4, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> That's what I'm leaning towards myself - a book with rules for ships and underwater adventuring, a section on water-based PC races (possibly reprinting sea elves and tritons, but adding new options like merfolk and locathah), and a bestiary focusing on aquatic creatures and nautical NPCs. Possibly a short adventure as well...




Very solid core idea for a full book. I'm excited, especially since I just got Goodman Games Isle of Dread book.


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## WackyAnne (Jan 4, 2019)

Bitbrain said:


> This would be perfect.
> 
> And if the PC options included Tritons, Merfolk, Sahuagin, and some kind of Crabfolk, I'll actually be able to run a game based on the new _Aquaman_ film!




Aldani from ToA not crabby enough for you? Not hard to convert to PC race... 
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yurian


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## vpuigdoller (Jan 4, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Not a zero-sum game, could be one of those coming too: but I don't think Kate's book will be an AP.




Yah its definitely leaning towards rules, fluff book.


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## aco175 (Jan 4, 2019)

I was just thinking about a pirate campaign for later in the year.


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## ehren37 (Jan 4, 2019)

Makes sense. Wizkids previewed this ship "miniature" a while back. Though at almost 3 feet long, I don't think it counts as a mini anymore!
https://wizkids.com/the-falling-star-sailing-ship/


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## Bitbrain (Jan 4, 2019)

WackyAnne said:


> Aldani from ToA not crabby enough for you? Not hard to convert to PC race...
> https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Yurian




Don't have Tomb of Annihilation.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jan 5, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> That's what I'm leaning towards myself - a book with rules for ships and underwater adventuring, a section on water-based PC races (possibly reprinting sea elves and tritons, but adding new options like merfolk and locathah), and a bestiary focusing on aquatic creatures and nautical NPCs. Possibly a short adventure as well...



As an addendum to this, they could also include a chapter describing a typical aquatic/nautical-themed region. Either of the two sets of pirate isles in the Forgotten Realms (in the Sea of Swords or in the Sea of Fallen Stars) would work admirably.


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## Staffan (Jan 5, 2019)

It would be cool if the book in question moved away from the Sword Coast to the Sea of Falling Stars. Coasts are nice and all, but for great naval stuff you usually want something less linear. The Sea of Falling Stars is sort of Faerûn's Mediterranean Sea (complete with Greeks and Egyptians).

It would also be interesting to see how the Sea of Falling Stars have recovered post-Sundering - as I recall, the 4e version was dominated by aboleths and their minions.


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## Retreater (Jan 5, 2019)

Wonder when the nautical-themed book will ... ship?


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## Retreater (Jan 5, 2019)

I have to cross my fingers about the ship book. If it's an adventure, I've found most gaming pirate-based adventures are dark, gritty, and unpleasant; D&D/PF has done a pretty bad job of capturing high adventure, swashbuckling daring-do. Campaigns that promise Jack Sparrow, then you end up getting keel-hauled by a maniacal captain and spend most of the adventure in prison-like conditions.


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## Robyo (Jan 5, 2019)

Boats &  wins my vote!


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## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

Um, guys, I think Stewart just slipped that they have Dragonlance in the pipeline, around 30 minutes in when they are discussing replica weapons: might just be me, but I don't think so...


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## dynath (Jan 5, 2019)

No Spelljammer this year huh... Well I guess I will be waiting for clearance sales for all 3-4 books released in 2019.  I hit aggregate levels of "I don't care" with the re-releases of old campaign books.  More money for miniatures i guess.


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## vecna00 (Jan 5, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> I'm, guys, I think Stewart just slipped that they have Dragonlance in the pipeline, around 30 minutes in when they are discussing replica weapons: might just be me, but I don't think so...




I caught that too, but I didn't put much stock in it in that moment, someone had mentioned it in the Twitch chat. It'll still probably happen though!


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## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> I caught that too, but I didn't put much stock in it in that moment, someone had mentioned it in the Twitch chat. It'll still probably happen though!




It's certainly something they want to do eventually, but the cagey way they were behaving, the description of when they could talk about it, and then his slipping the Dragonlance by name accidentally anyways...I think we might see DL sooner rather than later.


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## Prakriti (Jan 5, 2019)

> There will be 3-4 big releases this year, with plans for spring, summer, and fall.



Not good. Now that there's a sizable 5E library, they need to transition to fewer releases per year. A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.


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## gyor (Jan 5, 2019)

Arnwolf666 said:


> This is what interested me. I don’t care what setting or culture. I just want something besides medieval Europe. Stone Age, Bronze Age, Persian, Mesopotamia, India, Southeast Asia, urban arcana, old
> West, Victorian, anything but medieval Europe.




  There is a third party setting called Hellenika that is coming that would likely fill much of those needs. The Hellenized world included areas in Europe, Africa, and Asia, it's was one of the most philophical and spiritual eras of history,  the exchange of ideas and resources between so many cultures, the art,  and so on is made it one of the most important eras in human history and inspired others,  it was fresh exposure to knowledge from the Hellenistic era that had been lost to Western Europe that inspired the Renaissance. It really doesn't get the respect it deserves.


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## flametitan (Jan 5, 2019)

Is it a bad thing I wished "Long Walk, Short Plank," was an actual book title?


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## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Not good. Now that there's a sizable 5E library, they need to transition to fewer releases per year. A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.




Don't really see the need for that: WotC is interested in keeping people playing as much as anything, and Quarterly releases are about right to keep the enthusiastic buying and enough to get folks who want just a few books onboard with a release that appeals specifically to them. The 3-4 books a year has never been considered a fast release schedule, but as long as people are buying I doubt they will slow down either. Nice and steady.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 5, 2019)

"In 2020, there will be a couple of products that will touch on cultures that don't usually get exposure in their products."

Africa and Oceania?


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## kittenhugs (Jan 5, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> "In 2020, there will be a couple of products that will touch on cultures that don't usually get exposure in their products."
> 
> Africa and Oceania?




My bet: Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur, and/or Maztica. All in Forgotten Realms and all emulating a specific type of area and specific cultures.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jan 5, 2019)

Staffan said:


> It would be cool if the book in question moved away from the Sword Coast to the Sea of Falling Stars. Coasts are nice and all, but for great naval stuff you usually want something less linear. The Sea of Falling Stars is sort of Faerûn's Mediterranean Sea (complete with Greeks and Egyptians).
> 
> It would also be interesting to see how the Sea of Falling Stars have recovered post-Sundering - as I recall, the 4e version was dominated by aboleths and their minions.




Endangered, more than dominated. It was very much still an active seafaring area, IIRC.


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## lostsanityreturned (Jan 5, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Not good. Now that there's a sizable 5E library, they need to transition to fewer releases per year. A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.




What are you on about? 5e is entering its 5th year and we have had xanathars guide, two setting guides, two half monster manual / race guides. 

This is hardly a glut. Three book purchases of you skip the setting books is... well...


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## DQDesign (Jan 5, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> My pet hypothesis is that they are looking to do a full hardcover Eberron book, and that might depend on how testing goes for the final Artificer...




It would be fine, I just hope they'll consider a HUGE discount for a stupid simpleton like me who bought the pdf on day one. Also because after the wayfinder release they decided to disclose large amount of crunch for free anyway.


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## Mercurius (Jan 5, 2019)

DQDesign said:


> It would be fine, I just hope they'll consider a HUGE discount for a stupid simpleton like me who bought the pdf on day one. Also because after the wayfinder release they decided to disclose large amount of crunch for free anyway.




 Now why would they do that? And were you coerced in any way to buy Wayfinder's? Were you unhappy to do so at the time? And will you be happy if they do, indeed, publish a nice, new and shiny Eberron hardcover and don't give it to you at a discounted rate, other than the usual ~40% off from Amazon?


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## DQDesign (Jan 5, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.




True, and I can't understand how a book related to really niche concepts (in dnd) like boats could help in this.

I'll pass on this book.


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## DQDesign (Jan 5, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Now why would they do that? And were you coerced in any way to buy Wayfinder's? Were you unhappy to do so at the time? And will you be happy if they do, indeed, publish a nice, new and shiny Eberron hardcover and don't give it to you at a discounted rate, other than the usual ~40% off from Amazon?




Your questions are based on the assumptions that the hardcover book will have contents totally different from the wayfinder's guide. In my opinion it will be simply a polished, printed version of a pdf I already have. In that case, I would consider buying it only with a discount like the 'pdf+print' programs on rpgnow or 'bits &mortar'.

Anyway, no 40% discount on Amazon for USD-priced books here in Italy, sorry.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 5, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> "In 2020, there will be a couple of products that will touch on cultures that don't usually get exposure in their products."
> 
> Africa and Oceania?




Italy and Poland?


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## CapnZapp (Jan 5, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Not good. Now that there's a sizable 5E library, they need to transition to fewer releases per year. A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.




_Fewer_ releases?!????   

Maybe I can interest you in a completely different game system? How about _[Insert game that went bust in 1979 here]_?


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## CapnZapp (Jan 5, 2019)

DQDesign said:


> True, and I can't understand how a book related to really niche concepts (in dnd) like boats could help in this.
> 
> I'll pass on this book.



I would say the more niche, the better it helps with your fatigue.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 5, 2019)

This I want.


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## DQDesign (Jan 5, 2019)

CapnZapp said:


> I would say the more niche, the better it helps with your fatigue.




This could be true, when addressing the single customer. What I don't understand is a company hoping to have the usual revenues (or increasing them) with a niche product.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 5, 2019)

DQDesign said:


> This could be true, when addressing the single customer. What I don't understand is a company hoping to have the usual revenues (or increasing them) with a niche product.




If they are going to do 4 books a year instead of 3, then that fourth book can be more niche without a problem. There can be a crunch book, a setting book, an adventure book, and a niche book. Something for (almost) everyone.


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## DQDesign (Jan 5, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> If they are going to do 4 books a year instead of 3, then that fourth book can be more niche without a problem. There can be a crunch book, a setting book, an adventure book, and a niche book. Something for (almost) everyone.




good point! I would take the setting book for example (but only if open for dmsguild development) and maybe the crunch and the adventure (if used as weak replacement for a setting like done for CoS).
let's see if your prophecy fulfills  (considering that a 25 people team is not able to produce an artificer class after two years of development I'm not so confident, but who knows?).


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 5, 2019)

Retreater said:


> I have to cross my fingers about the ship book. If it's an adventure, I've found most gaming pirate-based adventures are dark, gritty, and unpleasant; D&D/PF has done a pretty bad job of capturing high adventure, swashbuckling daring-do. Campaigns that promise Jack Sparrow, then you end up getting keel-hauled by a maniacal captain and spend most of the adventure in prison-like conditions.




That's down to the DM. I ran a couple of pirate themed sidequests last year, and they where far from grimdark. You might also look at "Pirates of the Sword Coast" for the Neverwinter Nights CRPG.


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## DMP (Jan 5, 2019)

Boats and   !!!!!!

Take my money now


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## CydKnight (Jan 5, 2019)

I've never been drawn to "ship-themed" adventures.  Perhaps I associate such a thing of working thematically like the _Pirates of the Caribbean_ movies which I really don't associate with D&D?  I suppose if I had additional inspiration and gave it more thought, it could be fun?


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## Enrico Poli1 (Jan 5, 2019)

I think it'll be an adventure that will also  cover a new region of the Realms. Sea of Fallen Stars coming?


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## Derren (Jan 5, 2019)

If that is a good idea?

Ships don't work really well in most RPGs.


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## generic (Jan 5, 2019)

Enrico Poli1 said:


> I think it'll be an adventure that will also  cover a new region of the Realms. Sea of Fallen Stars coming?




I wish...

I suspect, however, that it will be set near or in Luskan, with references to Jarlaxle sprinkled throughout.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 5, 2019)

DQDesign said:


> This could be true, when addressing the single customer. What I don't understand is a company hoping to have the usual revenues (or increasing them) with a niche product.



I don't have an opinion on that.

I merely wished to point out the logic that I couldn't find: "if I don't wish to buy more products from WotC, maybe it's a good thing the products don't interest me".


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## CapnZapp (Jan 5, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> I've never been drawn to "ship-themed" adventures.  Perhaps I associate such a thing of working thematically like the _Pirates of the Caribbean_ movies which I really don't associate with D&D?  I suppose if I had additional inspiration and gave it more thought, it could be fun?



I'm fairly neutral, considering you could simply treat ships as moving dungeon rooms.

That is: the product may well provide more details for players interested in the nitty-gritty of ships, but it is the style of D&D of not *requiring* such interest.


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## generic (Jan 5, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Not good. Now that there's a sizable 5E library, they need to transition to fewer releases per year. A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.




I respectfully disagree.  In fact, I would be horrified if WotC slowed down their release pace.  As we have seen, even their "quality over quantity" policy has given us horrible train-wrecks like HotDQ.  This is (IMHO) not because they are releasing too many books (they aren't), but because bad design can happen, whether the designers are good or not.  I would rather have more products, with some of them being good and some being bad, than have only a few books (some of which may not be so great) with design levels that can vary wildly.


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## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> I've never been drawn to "ship-themed" adventures.  Perhaps I associate such a thing of working thematically like the _Pirates of the Caribbean_ movies which I really don't associate with D&D?  I suppose if I had additional inspiration and gave it more thought, it could be fun?




The Pirates of the Caribbean movies are super D&D, though?

The thing is, it is an adventure genre not extremely well supported out of the box. Adequately, but with a lot of DM elbow grease to fill the gaps. A book to fill those gaps is about what the doctor ordered.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 5, 2019)

Now players from this age want skyships. We only carvorite, a special mineral found in the flying islands what appeared after some strange phenomenons links with planar rifts to the Chaotic Limbo gate.

And do you know? There is a good reason to add (arcanepunk) vehicles to D&D: Hasbro could sell toys. 

Africa in D&D? Maybe after Kara-Tur and Maztica and the marvel comic blockbuster movie "Black Panther" D&D might be ready to show its own version of Wakanda. About Oceania Hawai has got links with the Polynesian culture. Maybe a fantastic version of Oceania can be a good settin for pirates.  

If there is a return of Kara-tur we should see again old classes as the martial adepts (3.5 Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords), the ninja, the samurai or the sohei. Al-Qadim? Maybe after the comingsoon action-live version of Disney's Aladdin.


----------



## aco175 (Jan 5, 2019)

Aebir-Toril said:


> I wish...
> 
> I suspect, however, that it will be set near or in Luskan, with references to Jarlaxle sprinkled throughout.




I would rather have Luskan than Sea of Fallen Stars myself, without Jaraxle and that burden.  Better if they detailes part of the city and some of the other islands in the region, or along the whole Sword Coast.


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## dwayne (Jan 5, 2019)

I want pirates, big game hunters, pygmy cannibals, cursed undead, lepored priests, massive forest covered ruined temples, voodoo warlocks, and sirens. yes Indiana Jones meets pirates of the Caribbean, sea planes are optional but black powder and sabers for everyone.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 5, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> I've never been drawn to "ship-themed" adventures.  Perhaps I associate such a thing of working thematically like the _Pirates of the Caribbean_ movies which I really don't associate with D&D?  I suppose if I had additional inspiration and gave it more thought, it could be fun?




Pirates of the Caribbean is very D&Dish. It's a lot close in tone to the-game-how-it-is-really-played than a po-faced LotR movie.


----------



## ron beck (Jan 5, 2019)

I like the cover art for Long Walk the most, but the title for Boats and  is the best IMO.
the other 2 have kind of an optimistic feel to them, which I feel sends the wrong message to players. I want something that will let them know just how truly buggered they are.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

Listening more fully, other bits:

- The big Fall AP seems to be set to be in another Forgotten Realms location, about the same indeterminate start date as previous adventures

- A range of low-mid levels is the direction set for future APs right now, no high level AP in line

- When asked about Dragonlance point blank, they specified that all they could say is that there will be no Spelljammer in 2019, which is interesting after the earlier slip about the replica Dragonlance they are planning only being something they can discuss after the next Stream show

- At least one Hydra74 alt cover coming in 2019

- As to the "other cultures" products (Nathan was definitely plural) in 2020, they have had several outside consultants come in to work with them on getting it right (which they failed to do with Tomb of Annihilation)

- They are very happy with the 3-4 books a year, not too happy with the spacing of books in 2018 and will work on the format a bit, but no big increase in books as it is working well for the company and the customer base

- They are working with D&D Beyond, Roll20 and Fantasy Grounds on getting exclusive digital "official" content aimed at their customer bases (he threw out "D&D Noir" as an example of the sort of niche work)

- WotC has mock-ups of Funko Pops that they are working to make happen as a future product

- Ravnica has been received *really* well, one of the best selling products on D&D Beyond currently, there will be more settings, though Stewart is uncertain if there will be another setting product in 2019 because they wanted to wait to see how Ravnica was received: they will do more because it was well received, but that would be the 4th of the 3-4 products for 2019 and still up in the air.

- Asked about a Magic expansion set in a D&D world, Stewart said that he doesn't know about any right now, but that it comes up a lot and all of the "Powers That Be" want that to happen so he is confident that we will see a D&D Magic Set (!!!!)

- A couple of big surprises in the hopper, which he mentioned after laying out the Spring book, the Late Summer AP book and "any December book" as what we will know after the big stream

- No big changes in book format forthcoming

- Conservatively, there are 1.7-2 million new players in the last year, so WotC is working to figure out what new people are interested in, and Stewart asked people to be patient and charitable about their trying to cover a wide variety of playstyles and interests, and that a given product wasn't made "at the expense of Spellajmmer" getting released

- 2018 was the best year for Dungeons & Dragons ever by a wide margin


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## Reynard (Jan 5, 2019)

dwayne said:


> I want pirates, big game hunters, pygmy cannibals, cursed undead, lepored priests, massive forest covered ruined temples, voodoo warlocks, and sirens. yes Indiana Jones meets pirates of the Caribbean, sea planes are optional but black powder and sabers for everyone.



I would guess we won't see much of that sort of pulp era exoticism in a modern D&D product.


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## CydKnight (Jan 5, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Pirates of the Caribbean is very D&Dish. It's a lot close in tone to the-game-how-it-is-really-played than a po-faced LotR movie.



Not to me but to each their own.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> Not to me but to each their own.




It's not just a matter of subjective feeling, though: PotC uses D&D-ish pulp tropes, you can assign Classes to many of the characters, and the big bad is a Mindflayer who has a Kraken buddy and a lost love who is a goddess pretending to be a hag.


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## JPL (Jan 5, 2019)

I'd hope to see something Faerun-based.  After all these years, there are still VAST uncharted areas on the map.

As a big Jack Aubrey fan, I hope they give ample attention to the actual nuts and bolts of running a ship.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 5, 2019)

Maybe we could find a new region of FR mixing Caribea Sea (with African influence) and Oceania. The perfect place for pirates but adding new things. 

And we can discover a sourcebook like Stormwrack from 3.5 Ed because now the new movie of Aquaman is a blockbuster with a great succes. Sometime I have tried to imagine a demiplane for undersea adventures with low level characters and the solution is a sea spirit realm, linked to the faywild, where the water is replaced with aether or something like "ghost/spirit water", invisible and incorporeal, but where no-fish beings can swim or dive (like an anti-gravity effect) but also surviving breathing air... until a naive predator floating on the "aether" goes to hunt and eat you.


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## generic (Jan 5, 2019)

aco175 said:


> I would rather have Luskan than Sea of Fallen Stars myself, without Jaraxle and that burden.  Better if they detailes part of the city and some of the other islands in the region, or along the whole Sword Coast.




Hmm... 

I'd rather have Sea of Fallen Stars, but I can understand your wish to remove Jarlaxle from a Luskan plotline.  In fact, Jarlaxle's presence is precisely why I want Sea of Fallen Stars.


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## CydKnight (Jan 5, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> It's not just a matter of subjective feeling, though: PotC uses D&D-ish pulp tropes, you can assign Classes to many of the characters, and the big bad is a Mindflayer who has a Kraken buddy and a lost love who is a goddess pretending to be a hag.



That's an interesting take.  I was under the impression I could feel what I like in whatever way I wish.  So yes, for me, in my own unique personal perspective as offered, it really is "just a matter of subjective feeling."


----------



## Mercurius (Jan 5, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Not good. Now that there's a sizable 5E library, they need to transition to fewer releases per year. A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.




Huh? "Not good" because they're going from 3 to 3-4, with that 4th being a big "maybe?"

Fewer releases would imply 2 or less meaning one every 6-12 months. How is that a good thing?

As far as people "suffering from official release fatigue," I say they are a tiny minority and this is more their misperception, and WotC would be foolish to cater to this lot. The simply solution to so-called "official-release fatigue" is not to buy books you don't want. It is really that simple.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> That's an interesting take.  I was under the impression I could feel what I like in whatever way I wish.  So yes, for me, in my own unique personal perspective as offered, it really is "just a matter of subjective feeling."




You have the right to your own opinion, but not your own facts: D&D is a pulp pastiche that hits certain genre notes that PotC also hits, including ones it clearly lifted from D&D.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> Huh? "Not good" because they're going from 3 to 3-4, with that 4th being a big "maybe?"
> 
> Fewer releases would imply 2 or less meaning one every 6-12 months. How is that a good thing?
> 
> As far as people "suffering from official release fatigue," I say they are a tiny minority and this is more their misperception, and WotC would be foolish to cater to this lot. The simply solution to so-called "official-release fatigue" is not to buy books you don't want. It is really that simple.




Stewart was asked about this point blank, and he said they are very happy with the current rate, and it seems to be working for customers.


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## dwayne (Jan 5, 2019)

I hate the realms always have, i just scavenge it for other settings, i was brought up in greyhawk and old school. I would like, no love to see an old school setting treatment of greyhawk, go hard core or go home. Make it gritty and dangerous alter spells to hearken back to when it cost constitution points to rez someone. Death was a shock to the system and wizards needed no concentration if only in melee, and spells were limited only by the number per day you can cast on ones self. Yes please give grey hawk the old gary gygax i am going to have the sword have charges treatment, gary sorry to see you gone but sometimes people fail a con check man


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## Vael (Jan 5, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> I forgot, I have screencaps!
> 
> View attachment 103950




It's the "E" thar makes it classy.


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## vecna00 (Jan 5, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Listening more fully, other bits:
> 
> - The big Fall AP seems to be set to be in another Forgotten Realms location, about the same indeterminate start date as previous adventures
> 
> ...




If I remember correctly, the uncertainty about another setting product in 2019 was only in regards to a new Magic in D&D setting. I'll have to watch it again to make certain though.

You nailed everything else!


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> If I remember correctly, the uncertainty about another setting product in 2019 was only in regards to a new Magic in D&D setting. I'll have to watch it again to make certain though.
> 
> You nailed everything else!




My read on it was that they had waited for feedback to see if they wanted to move forward with another full setting book, and now that they know they want to do it Stewart is hesitant to commit to a 2019 release. But, you might be right or he might have been imprecise (which is the danger of off-the-cuff hedge-y spoilers).

If their next planned setting book is Eberron, making sure everything is polished might get it bumped of the year, but Stewart might not be certain at this point. They did certainly succeed in getting me pumped for the year.


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## vecna00 (Jan 5, 2019)

This next book screams supplement, not adventure, to me. It'll probably have ALL (tm) of the nautical rules. What exactly that will involve...I don't know. Will there be new races, backgrounds, subclasses, or feats? Maybe? If this were an older edition, it would definitely include all of these things. There will probably be monsters though, that will fill half a book!


----------



## vecna00 (Jan 5, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> My read on it was that they had waited for feedback to see if they wanted to move forward with another full setting book, and now that they know they want to do it Stewart is hesitant to commit to a 2019 release. But, you might be right or he might have been imprecise (which is the danger of off-the-cuff hedge-y spoilers).
> 
> If their next planned setting book is Eberron, making sure everything is polished might get it bumped of the year, but Stewart might not be certain at this point. They did certainly succeed in getting me pumped for the year.




It's hard to know for certain, but we'll be finding out soon-ish!


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## Aaron L (Jan 5, 2019)

Ugh... _that's_ what they're wasting one of their few, precious books on this year?  A book about ships and sailing?

Sorry, I _really dislike_ nautical themed D&D stuff.  Absolutely zero interest for me.  And seeing as how they publish so few 5th Edition rulebooks, this seems like a _complete_ waste of an opportunity for new stuff.

I'm happy for the people who will enjoy it, but for me it's an absolute disappointment.

If it were a book about various climate/terrain types then it _might_ be worth it, but still pretty boring to me.  What I really want is a book full of more Feats and subclasses to expand the base game.


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## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

Aaron L said:


> Ugh... _that's_ what they're wasting one of their few, precious books on this year?  A book about ships and sailing?
> 
> Sorry, I _really dislike_ nautical themed D&D stuff.  Absolutely zero interest for me.  And seeing as how they publish so few 5th Edition rulebooks, this seems like a _complete_ waste of an opportunity for new stuff.
> 
> ...




Not necessarily a contradiction, it could still be partly that. It is not an adventure book, so there are going to be rules in it of some sort, maybe monsters, maybe sub-classes.


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## CydKnight (Jan 5, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> You have the right to your own opinion, but not your own facts: D&D is a pulp pastiche that hits certain genre notes that PotC also hits, including ones it clearly lifted from D&D.



Pulp pastiche, genres were never disputed or introduced in my original thread nor does it influence my original opinion.  It still doesn't feel D&D to me which is all I was trying to say.  It feels more like its own genre to me.


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## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> Pulp pastiche, genres were never disputed or introduced in my original thread nor does it influence my original opinion.  It still doesn't feel D&D to me which is all I was trying to say.  It feels more like its own genre to me.




A genre with zombies, dungeons, jungle tribes, Mindflayers, Krakens, hags, Rogues, Warlocks, Fighters, Mermaids, Ghosts, alternate planes of existence...


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## Satyrn (Jan 5, 2019)

I'm starting to understand why I didn't like the Pirates of the Carribean.




. . . and starting to fear there'll never be a D&D movie I like.


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## Parmandur (Jan 5, 2019)

Satyrn said:


> I'm starting to understand why I didn't like the Pirates of the Carribean.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If your standard is set to "not enjoying popularly-entertaining movies derived from D&D" then it would be a bit of a barrier enjoying such a movie.


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## epithet (Jan 5, 2019)

qstor said:


> No Greyhawk love






Parmandur said:


> No reason to say that: MToF was a Greyhawk-centric book.




Not enough to open the setting in the DMs Guild. Like so much of the 5e product line-up, they just pillaged The World of Greyhawk for the benefit of the Forgotten Realms. For whatever reason, that's been happening since the very beginning of the FR setting at TSR, with the Desert of Desolation and Bloodstone Pass being shoehorned into it. The Forgotten Realms is a content-sucking vampire of a setting, so I suppose it is appropriate that it slurped up Ravenloft, too.

I suppose I shouldn't complain, though. At least as long as they don't revisit Greyhawk it will remain free of Jarlaxle.


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## Derren (Jan 6, 2019)

I just wonder what theme they will chose for the books.
D&D is very pulp and the most pulpish naval theme is pirates, specifically the swashbuckling Jack Sparrow style pirates. Problem is, Jack Sparrow and D&D does not mix well.
First, no cannons. Second, trigger happy mages. Third, D&D being a group game where everyone wants in on the action instead of the captain making the decision (especially trigger happy mages). Forth, a completely different combat mechanic for naval engagements. You have flying, said mages and soon players will find out that with some magic they can attack ships from below which is very risk free.
And then there are all the different races with all their different takes and technology levels for their ships (at least when you follow FR lore).

So my expectation is that any D&D nautical book will be a complete mess and requires an extra suspension of disbelieve to work. And that does not even address the problem of how to integrate ship vs ship combat where most of the time the entire party will have only one ship and thus one or two guys making the important decisions while the others are at best supporting roles into a game which spends a lot of effort on having everyone be effective in combat. That is a completely different mindset. Not to mention that naval combat usually requires several concepts D&D specifically ignores like facing.

And apart from combat a lot of problems of sailing like provisions, etc. are solved by low level spells and generally ignored for land travel anyway, so nothing you can fill a book with. This even extends to the motivation of being a pirate in the first place as money is plentiful in D&D and you get enough of it by simple adventuring. So why be a pirate which takes more effort and is not in any way less dangerous?
I would be surprised if WotC manages to solve all this problems but I do not believe it.


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## vpuigdoller (Jan 6, 2019)

dwayne said:


> I want pirates, big game hunters, pygmy cannibals, cursed undead, lepored priests, massive forest covered ruined temples, voodoo warlocks, and sirens. yes Indiana Jones meets pirates of the Caribbean, sea planes are optional but black powder and sabers for everyone.




Yes please this is what I want!!!!


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Jan 6, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> If there is a return of Kara-tur we should see again old classes as the martial adepts (3.5 Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords), the ninja, the samurai or the sohei. Al-Qadim? Maybe after the comingsoon action-live version of Disney's Aladdin.




But we already have a subclass literally named "Samurai", and the Way of Shadow Monk subclass explicitly says it represents "ninjas".

Making alternate versions would just be confusing and annoying.



JPL said:


> I'd hope to see something Faerun-based.  After all these years, there are still VAST uncharted areas on the map.




What map are you looking at? 



Parmandur said:


> My read on it was that they had waited for feedback to see if they wanted to move forward with another full setting book, and now that they know they want to do it Stewart is hesitant to commit to a 2019 release. But, you might be right or he might have been imprecise (which is the danger of off-the-cuff hedge-y spoilers).
> 
> If their next planned setting book is Eberron, making sure everything is polished might get it bumped of the year, but Stewart might not be certain at this point. They did certainly succeed in getting me pumped for the year.




Hmm...

So we basically know:

- 3-4 books this year
- Adventure book in the Fall
- Nautical book (format unspecified, but not adventure) in the Spring
- Unclear whether the potential for a setting book has been relegated to the possible 4th book

This makes me wonder what the other book (Summer) is going to be. Are they really planning on *two* non-adventure, non-campaign setting supplements in the same year? That would be a pretty major shift in their release strategy. It would make more sense if the third book is a setting, and the potential fourth book would be an additional setting.

Of course, the mysterious book could be another D&D-related but not sourcebook kind of thing like the art books. Or a tangential product like a book of Forgotten Realms maps (which wouldn't sell well, and they'd know that, so not really.)


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## Ash Mantle (Jan 6, 2019)

I would absolutely love to have a supplement detailing the different types of oceans, the denizens therein and any sea-faring rules. Also any classes with oceanic themes, give us some more storm sorcerers and their like. Also give us seafaring races as well, like the rigging-swinging hadozees! 

I would also absolutely love to have a portion of that book dedicated to the deepest, darkest parts of the ocean, that would be excellent.  

We also need to dedicate bits of that book to social encounters on the high seas. A shout for Parley! should be the norm for every combat encounter, followed by a swift sword stab or slash or a buckshot to the face when things go south because social norms on the high seas are only a guideline.


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## Parmandur (Jan 6, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> But we already have a subclass literally named "Samurai", and the Way of Shadow Monk subclass explicitly says it represents "ninjas".
> 
> Making alternate versions would just be confusing and annoying.
> 
> ...




The Summer book is the storyline AP, as with Tomb of Annihilation or Dragon Heist. So the schedule is:

- Spring = Kate's sea book
- Summer = Perkins storyline AP
- "Any December books we might put out"

It is then post Summer AP stuff that sounds up in the air right now.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jan 6, 2019)

Derren said:


> If that is a good idea?
> 
> Ships don't work really well in most RPGs.




IME, they work great. 



vecna00 said:


> This next book screams supplement, not adventure, to me. It'll probably have ALL (tm) of the nautical rules. What exactly that will involve...I don't know. Will there be new races, backgrounds, subclasses, or feats? Maybe? If this were an older edition, it would definitely include all of these things. There will probably be monsters though, that will fill half a book!




The last player options expansion book was full of races, so i'm guessing we will see mostly the sorts of things we saw in Xanathar's, but that pattern might be coincidental. 

Almost certainly we will see the stuff we saw in the UA article, some new monsters, lots of ship stat blocks, probably new ship weapons, new monsters, new stuff related to exploration, and a lot of lore and advice on running nautical adventures. 

I hope we get new feats, fighting styles, spells, magic items, and mundane gear, and more new downtime stuff than they presented in UA. stuff related to managing a merchant company or the like, commanding people in groups, etc. New subclasses, and maybe new subraces, would also be rad.


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## guachi (Jan 6, 2019)

I'm all for a better focused rules supplement.

I realized a few days ago I rated two D&D supplements lower because they seemed like a grab bag of ideas.

Give me a book with a tight focus.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 6, 2019)

I don't agree, Samurai and Ninja shouldn't be subclasses but base classes, and better with ki maneuvers as the martial adepts from Tome of Battle: Book of nine Swords. And there are other names like bushi or shinobi as options. Or they could be archetypes like in Pathfinder, showing an optional list of class features. 

* If there are pirates with guns and gunpowder... then we will see a fight about balance of power between armors, magic, guns and savages. Guns can be fun if only be can be used by PCs, but if the PCs are ewoks or na'vis living in a primitive culture then the arrival of pirates or conquerers with firearms may be a true nightmare. Somebody could create low level spells to water gunpowder or create ectoplasm to block canons, or hand-to-hand fight classes would look for some bulletproof defense, for example lycantrophy curse.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jan 6, 2019)

The more I think about it, the statement that there won't be Spelljammer this year seems to be, if not meant to be purposely misleading, then a real missed opportunity with this product (if it what we are all assuming it will be, of course). If you're going to publish a book that details ship statistics and how to run ship-to-ship combat, sparing a few pages for a chapter on how to run ships in the air and ships in space would seem to be a logical next step, especially since it's known that there's some interest for it - probably not enough interest for a whole book, but enough for at least part of a book? I, for one, would have zero issues with using space in this sort of book to give us some coverage for airships and Spelljammer vessels (and a basic run-down of associated lore). It wouldn't need to take up too much room (maybe 20 pages in a likely 200+ page book?), and would make for a much more varied bestiary at the very least! Does anyone know the exact quote concerning Spelljammer? Was it that there would be no Spelljammer material _at all_ this year, or that there wouldn't be a _dedicated_ Spelljammer product this year? 

And I'm guessing that the non-European flavored coverage will be East Asian inspired, as it's a perennial favorite in pretty much every edition.


----------



## Ash Mantle (Jan 6, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> The more I think about it, the statement that there won't be Spelljammer this year seems to be, if not meant to be purposely misleading, then a real missed opportunity with this product (if it what we are all assuming it will be, of course). If you're going to publish a book that details ship statistics and how to run ship-to-ship combat, sparing a few pages for a chapter on how to run ships in the air and ships in space would seem to be a logical next step, especially since it's known that there's some interest for it - probably not enough interest for a whole book, but enough for at least part of a book? I, for one, would have zero issues with using space in this sort of book to give us some coverage for airships and Spelljammer vessels (and a basic run-down of associated lore). It wouldn't need to take up too much room, and would make for a much more varied bestiary at the very least! Does anyone know the exact quote concerning Spelljammer? Was it that there would be no Spelljammer material _at all_ this year, or that there wouldn't be a _dedicated_ Spelljammer product this year?




To my mind, this book could be a testing ground for a new product further down the track, sorta like how I feel the mechanics in Guildmasters' Guide for Ravnica (especially the guild mechanics) is a test for an eventual Planescape or Eberron supplement. 
If they keep Spelljammer to a different product, they could keep to a tighter and more focused theme with this product.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jan 6, 2019)

Ash Mantle said:


> To my mind, this book could be a testing ground for a new product further down the track, sorta like how I feel the mechanics in Guildmasters' Guide for Ravnica (especially the guild mechanics) is a test for an eventual Planescape or Eberron supplement.
> If they keep Spelljammer to a different product, they could keep to a tighter and more focused theme with this product.




True - and I definitely agree that the base chassis of Ravnica's Guilds would port to Planescape's Factions with very little change necessary - but then again having a dedicated Spelljammer product would mean either forcing players and DMs to refer back to this upcoming book for ship-related information such as stats and combat (and a tenet of 5e is not to force people to reference anything out side the core three rulebooks), or reprinting a whole bunch of that sort of material in the Spelljammer book (which would waste a bunch of space and annoy people who dislike reprints). It's all speculation at the moment - we really need to see what all will be covered in this upcoming book. If it is a lot and it merits not releasing some space for Spelljammer, then sure, no problem; but if we get some obvious filler, then I might complain the space could have been better utilized...


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 6, 2019)

I think the Spelljammer thing is a long game by Stewart: generate buzz for Selljammer by talking about it, so that a case can be made to bring it eventually.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jan 6, 2019)

JPL said:


> As a big Jack Aubrey fan, I hope they give ample attention to the actual nuts and bolts of running a ship.




This is perhaps an overlooked point. "Ships" doesn't have to mean "Pirates". Their is a whole sub-genre of navel adventure stories set during the age of sail which can serve as inspiration for a more serious* nautical campaign.


*Pirates, although the reality was grim, have long been associated with light-hearted adventure, since long before Jack Sparrow came along. See Treasure Island (1883) and Peter Pan (1904).


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 6, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> Pulp pastiche, genres were never disputed or introduced in my original thread nor does it influence my original opinion.  It still doesn't feel D&D to me which is all I was trying to say.  It feels more like its own genre to me.




Then you are playing D&D in a way that diverts significantly from much of the literature that inspired it. This is provable: Look at the original appendix N in the 1st edition DMG.

That's fine, you can play D&D any way you like.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 6, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> This next book screams supplement, not adventure, to me. It'll probably have ALL (tm) of the nautical rules. What exactly that will involve...I don't know. Will there be new races, backgrounds, subclasses, or feats? Maybe? If this were an older edition, it would definitely include all of these things. There will probably be monsters though, that will fill half a book!




Why can't it be both, like they did with Dragon Heist? Half the book or so about the ships and combat and sea monsters and half low-level adventures aboard ship.


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## Ash Mantle (Jan 6, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> True - and I definitely agree that the base chassis of Ravnica's Guilds would port to Planescape's Factions with very little change necessary - but then again having a dedicated Spelljammer product would mean either forcing players and DMs to refer back to this upcoming book for ship-related information such as stats and combat (and a tenet of 5e is not to force people to reference anything out side the core three rulebooks), or reprinting a whole bunch of that sort of material in the Spelljammer book (which would waste a bunch of space and annoy people who dislike reprints). It's all speculation at the moment - we really need to see what all will be covered in this upcoming book. If it is a lot and it merits not releasing some space for Spelljammer, then sure, no problem; but if we get some obvious filler, then I might complain the space could have been better utilized...




Yeah, though unfortunately WotC does have a habit of reprinting prior material, especially in supplementation to their core rule books +1 rule. But you're definitely right, it's all currently speculation, hopefully we're get a ToC soon to get an idea of what'll be included; WotC has succeeded in generating talk about their upcoming products at least.

And no pun intended? 



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Why can't it be both, like they did with Dragon Heist? Half the book or so about the ships and combat and sea monsters and half low-level adventures aboard ship.




In Guildmasters' Guide to Ravnica they included a short 1st level adventure called Krenko's Way. They could probably do something similar with the upcoming "Are You On a Boat" book.


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## Derren (Jan 6, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> This is perhaps an overlooked point. "Ships" doesn't have to mean "Pirates". Their is a whole sub-genre of navel adventure stories set during the age of sail which can serve as inspiration for a more serious* nautical campaign.
> 
> 
> *Pirates, although the reality was grim, have long been associated with light-hearted adventure, since long before Jack Sparrow came along. See Treasure Island (1883) and Peter Pan (1904).




And what would that be?
Do you really think that Hornblower like stories would fit into D&D?


----------



## Ash Mantle (Jan 6, 2019)

Derren said:


> And what would that be?
> Do you really think that Hornblower like stories would fit into D&D?




My friends suggested Hornblower to me, and while I can honestly say the show isn't my cup of tea, aspects of the show - like dealing with crew morale and mutinous crew, ship to ship combat, making landfall and dealing with scenarios on land, ie resupplying and dealing with the effects of the "plague" - would make for compelling aspects of a campaign.


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## Derren (Jan 6, 2019)

Ash Mantle said:


> My friends suggested Hornblower to me, and while I can honestly say the show isn't my cup of tea, aspects of the show - like dealing with crew morale and mutinous crew, ship to ship combat, making landfall and dealing with scenarios on land, ie resupplying and dealing with the effects of the "plague" - would make for compelling aspects of a campaign.




Both resupplying and dealing with diseases are things usually glossed over in D&D and handled with low level spells. Also, the strict discipline displayed in Hornblower is very atypical to D&D.
Also, read the books. Much more detailed than the show.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 6, 2019)

Derren said:


> Both resupplying and dealing with diseases are things usually glossed over in D&D and handled with low level spells. Also, the strict discipline displayed in Hornblower is very atypical to D&D.
> Also, read the books. Much more detailed than the show.




Definitely read the books. The TV version was _awful_. Star Trek OS was closer*. Also read the Aubrey novels (Patrick O'Brian).

And the usual strategy for players who might not be keen on military discipline is to make the captain an NPC, who is either a martinet, a traitor, or much loved but short-lived. (Also see Star Trek: Discovery and Star Trek (Abrams movie)).


* Given that Star Trek was Hornblower_ in space_, you won't go far wrong if you treat your navel adventure as Star Trek_ on the Sea_.


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## Staffan (Jan 6, 2019)

guachi said:


> I'm all for a better focused rules supplement.
> 
> I realized a few days ago I rated two D&D supplements lower because they seemed like a grab bag of ideas.
> 
> Give me a book with a tight focus.



I can't really agree with this, particularly in light of the publishing strategy we've seen so far from Wizards.

Let's say, for the sake of the argument, that a rules-focused book will have 30 different things in it. I'd much rather have those 30 things be *good* things that can be whatever, than only have 5 good things about a particular topic and the other 25 being filler because they didn't have 30 good ideas to develop about that particular topic, and then have to buy five more books to get the other 25 good ideas they have.

I mean, compare Xanathar's Guide to Everything to the Complete books for 3.5e. The signal-to-noise ratio of the former is *far* higher than the latter.


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## Imaculata (Jan 6, 2019)

I don't play 5th edition, but that is mainly because 3rd edition has such awesome books such as Stormwrack, Sandstorm and Frostburn. It's these sorts of books that provide a wealth of ideas for using a unique climate in your campaign. So, color me delightfully surprised that they are doing this. Lets hope even more is on the way.


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## JRedmond (Jan 6, 2019)

It's weird that Critical Role is basically doing a ship campaign right now and a ship book is coming out.


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## OB1 (Jan 6, 2019)

JRedmond said:


> It's weird that Critical Role is basically doing a ship campaign right now and a ship book is coming out.




Why is it weird? Mercer regularly works with a variety of WoTC initiatives and likely has inside knowledge on the product line.


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## gyor (Jan 6, 2019)

Aebir-Toril said:


> Hmm...
> 
> I'd rather have Sea of Fallen Stars, but I can understand your wish to remove Jarlaxle from a Luskan plotline.  In fact, Jarlaxle's presence is precisely why I want Sea of Fallen Stars.




 I want the Sea of Fallen Stars because it's the most interesting area of the Faerun. Mulhorand,  Unther. Tymanther, Turmish, Nathlan,  Cormyr,  Sembia, Chessenta, Raven's Bluff,  Thay, Aglarond,  Rasheman, the Blade Kingdoms (an obscure reference), Myth Nentar,  the Saughuin Kingdom of Axis,  various islands,  and more.


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## lowkey13 (Jan 6, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## gyor (Jan 6, 2019)

Does anyone know when the next big stream is coming?


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## generic (Jan 6, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Is that similar to being the least annoying Paladin?
> 
> The most Oscar-worthy Michael Bay movie?
> 
> ...




*Throws Forgotten Realms Setting book*


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## SkidAce (Jan 6, 2019)

Derren said:


> And what would that be?
> Do you really think that Hornblower like stories would fit into D&D?




...one example...

Moby Dick as a dragon.


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## CydKnight (Jan 6, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Then you are playing D&D in a way that diverts significantly from much of the literature that inspired it. This is provable: Look at the original appendix N in the 1st edition DMG.
> 
> That's fine, you can play D&D any way you like.



Really?  I'm playing it wrong?  Because I'm not inspired by pirate themes in the game?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 6, 2019)

CydKnight said:


> Really?  I'm playing it wrong?  Because I'm not inspired by pirate themes in the game?




You are not playing it _wrong_. But you are playing it _differently_, which means your attempt to make a general point falls flat.

You don't like pirates. I don't like orcs. So what?


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## Parmandur (Jan 6, 2019)

gyor said:


> Does anyone know when the next big stream is coming?




They discussed that here, May 17-19 is the next stream where the Summer/Fall products will be revealed. This sea product will  be out by then.


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## Joseph Nardo (Jan 6, 2019)

So...the beautiful goddess Kate welch has designed a book of nautical theme......SIGN ME UP!!!


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## gyor (Jan 6, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> They discussed that here, May 17-19 is the next stream where the Summer/Fall products will be revealed. This sea product will  be out by then.




 Thanks. Hopefully we get the details on this pirate product (place holder,  we don't know what it is,  only that it has a nautical part) before May, maybe Feb or March for an announcement.


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## bedir than (Jan 6, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> ...one example...
> 
> Moby Dick as a dragon.




Moby Dick as a Leviathan


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## JacktheRabbit (Jan 6, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Al-Qadim, Kara-Tur and/or Maztica...?




Are we talking real cultures or are we talking about game cultures that have been ignored for a long time?

Real culture could mean Indian Subcontinent culture, Chinese Culture, South East, Pacific Islander culture (which could really fit into a ship and Sailing book).


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 6, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> ...one example...
> 
> Moby Dick as a dragon.




"Age of Dragons", 2011 movie with Danny Globber.


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## generic (Jan 6, 2019)

It could just be me, but does the name "_The Falling Star_" that has been given to the WizKids mini hint to the fact the adventure may be set in the Sea of Fallen Stars?


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## Parmandur (Jan 6, 2019)

gyor said:


> Thanks. Hopefully we get the details on this pirate product (place holder,  we don't know what it is,  only that it has a nautical part) before May, maybe Feb or March for an announcement.




The sea book is in final layout and should be at the printer within a month: that means it will be in stores March/April.


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## Parmandur (Jan 6, 2019)

JacktheRabbit said:


> Are we talking real cultures or are we talking about game cultures that have been ignored for a long time?
> 
> Real culture could mean Indian Subcontinent culture, Chinese Culture, South East, Pacific Islander culture (which could really fit into a ship and Sailing book).




They were being cagey about it, but they were responding to a question about whether less Medieval Euripeanesque socities might be profiled in coming books: the answer is not only yes, but they apparently have expert input. They were clearly talking about 2020 products in terms of other cultures, the Sea book doesn't seem to be effected by this question: it doesn't seem to be Adventure or Setting material from their discussion. A hybrid "water rules" with generic "D&D" lore ("this is how Merfolk work, this is how Sea Elves work, etc') with mosnters is my bet.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 6, 2019)

Aebir-Toril said:


> It could just be me, but does the name "_The Falling Star_" that has been given to the WizKids mini hint to the fact the adventure may be set in the Sea of Fallen Stars?




I do not understand how people keep making this mistake. WotC and/or WizKids did not invent The Falling Star. It was created by Chris Perkins long before he became a professional game writer. There is a nice, long article about the ship in the current issue of Dragon+, talking about how Chris Perkins created the ship back when he was a teenager and how it eventually became the design for the miniature. The ship was first announced at the beginning of August, so it was in the planning stages for months before that and, from the article, was in the planning stages before it ended up becoming a miniature of The Falling Star.


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## Parmandur (Jan 6, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I do not understand how people keep making this mistake. WotC and/or WizKids did not invent The Falling Star. It was created by Chris Perkins long before he became a professional game writer. There is a nice, long article about the ship in the current issue of Dragon+, talking about how Chris Perkins created the ship back when he was a teenager and how it eventually became the design for the miniature. The ship was first announced at the beginning of August, so it was in the planning stages for months before that and, from the article, was in the planning stages before it ended up becoming a miniature of The Falling Star.




Yeah, that project was WizKids idea, not WotC: however, the book and ship have been in production a similar amount of time


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## Derren (Jan 6, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> ...one example...
> 
> Moby Dick as a dragon.




Moby Dick and Hornblower is a bit different.
The "dragon" equivalent to Hornblower books would probably be the Temeraire books (His Majesties Dragon etc.), but even that would imo be hard to do in D&D.


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## gyor (Jan 6, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I do not understand how people keep making this mistake. WotC and/or WizKids did not invent The Falling Star. It was created by Chris Perkins long before he became a professional game writer. There is a nice, long article about the ship in the current issue of Dragon+, talking about how Chris Perkins created the ship back when he was a teenager and how it eventually became the design for the miniature. The ship was first announced at the beginning of August, so it was in the planning stages for months before that and, from the article, was in the planning stages before it ended up becoming a miniature of The Falling Star.




 Could The Falling Star name be a hint at the Sea of Fallen Stars.


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## Parmandur (Jan 6, 2019)

gyor said:


> Could The Falling Star name be a hint at the Sea of Fallen Stars.




I wouldn't bet on it, based on the Dragon+ article about the ship


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## gyor (Jan 6, 2019)

For the record I don't think it's going to be an exclusively about the sea. What it might be is WotC's own Stronghold Book, after the success of Matt's book,  which had Pirate ship stronghold, and Ma be they want a piece of that action.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jan 6, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Is that similar to being the least annoying Paladin?
> 
> The most Oscar-worthy Michael Bay movie?
> 
> The most subdued Nic Cage performance?




I love the FR but I applaud the brutality of this post.

I'm more exciting about the less-explored cultures than the boats, but boats ain't bad - there have actually been plenty in my 5E campaign and I kind of wished we had better rules for them.


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## gyor (Jan 6, 2019)

For the record I don't think it's going to be an exclusively about the sea. What it might be is WotC's own Stronghold Book, after the success of Matt's book,  which had Pirate ship stronghold, and Ma be they want a piece of that action.


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## Parmandur (Jan 7, 2019)

gyor said:


> For the record I don't think it's going to be an exclusively about the sea. What it might be is WotC's own Stronghold Book, after the success of Matt's book,  which had Pirate ship stronghold, and Ma be they want a piece of that action.




The big theme actually seemed to be sea creatures: 2 of the 4 joke covers had a ship, but all four involved understand creatures.

It looks likely to be a Volo's Guide to Monsters style book, with some difference, such as expanded ship rules and maybe nautical PC options.


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## Azzy (Jan 7, 2019)

What I'm expecting is a cross between XGtE and VGtM/MToF with a mix of Ravnica... While it will have the rules for ships (including skyships) and sailing, we'll probably see player options like races, subclasses, and maybe backgrounds and feats. The DM section will likely have a monster section as well as rules and guidance for sailing and undersea adventures, exploration, and downtime activities, plus some optional rules. There will probably be some lore to tie things to the existing settings. Possibly a mini adventure.


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## vecna00 (Jan 7, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Why can't it be both, like they did with Dragon Heist? Half the book or so about the ships and combat and sea monsters and half low-level adventures aboard ship.




It could totally be both! But, there won't be an adventure in the book, in my speculation. There could be adventure hooks and maybe even campaign hooks, but no actual adventure within the book.


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## Parmandur (Jan 7, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> It could totally be both! But, there won't be an adventure in the book, in my speculation. There could be adventure hooks and maybe even campaign hooks, but no actual adventure within the book.




Their discussion made it sound pretty supplement like, though they danced around any solid details.


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## MNblockhead (Jan 7, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Not good. Now that there's a sizable 5E library, they need to transition to fewer releases per year. A lot of people are already suffering from official-release fatigue.




One big release a quarter is about right for me. So far the 5e books have at least been fun to read and enjoy the art even if I don't immediately put them to use in my game. 

The only books I've skipped are the APs, but I've bought every one since Curse of Strahd, even though the only official AP I've run is Curse of Strahd.

As for the non-APs, I've found them all to be both enjoyable to read and useful as a DM. The only non-AP I didn't find very useful was Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, though I did enjoy reading through it.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jan 7, 2019)

MNblockhead said:


> One big release a quarter is about right for me. So far the 5e books have at least been fun to read and enjoy the art even if I don't immediately put them to use in my game.
> 
> The only books I've skipped are the APs, but I've bought every one since Curse of Strahd, even though the only official AP I've run is Curse of Strahd.
> 
> As for the non-APs, I've found them all to be both enjoyable to read and useful as a DM. The only non-AP I didn't find very useful was Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, though I did enjoy reading through it.




SCAG has so little content, I let players count it as part of the PHB in the one PHB+1 game we did, but as a lore book it's fun.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jan 7, 2019)

I'd expect the Sidekicks rules that were put out in UA will be in this book (ship officers?). Those rules have Jeremy Crawford's name on them, and he's told us that means they are probably going to be in an upcoming product (ones he isn't involved in are sometimes pure brainstorms from Mike Mearls or testing the waters). So we _are_ getting Sidekick rules, my guess is that the probability is high for them being in the spring book, which means those of us like me with strong opinions who haven't yet done the feedback survey need to get on that survey.


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## Parmandur (Jan 7, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I'd expect the Sidekicks rules that were put out in UA will be in this book (ship officers?). Those rules have Jeremy Crawford's name on them, and he's told us that means they are probably going to be in an upcoming product (ones he isn't involved in are sometimes pure brainstorms from Mike Mearls or testing the waters). So we _are_ getting Sidekick rules, my guess is that the probability is high for them being in the spring book, which means those of us like me with strong opinions who haven't yet done the feedback survey need to get on that survey.




Since they are in final layout and editing, yup. If that is meant for this book, that would be the last chance.


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## Elderbrain (Jan 7, 2019)

I'm thinking this would be a good book to bring back some of the missing aquatic creatures such as the Locanthah, Aquatic Elves (I know MTOF provides PC rules, but give us NPCs and a little detail on culture, etc), the Hippocampus, and maybe even the Demon Lord Dagon... be nice if they included a chart specifying which are fresh-water and which are salt-water, as well as what happens if a critter from one kind of water enters the other (as was the case in the 3.5 supplement Stormwracked, I believe). Also effects on spells underwater and all that good stuff. More rules for shipboard weapons such as cannons/gunpowder?


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## pukunui (Jan 7, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> - As to the "other cultures" products (Nathan was definitely plural) in 2020, they have had several outside consultants come in to work with them on getting it right (which they failed to do with Tomb of Annihilation)



In what way did they fail with _Tomb of Annihilation_?


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## Parmandur (Jan 7, 2019)

pukunui said:


> In what way did they fail with _Tomb of Annihilation_?




To talk to anyone of African descent about the setting, let alone a real expert in the field: it was a good book, and the controversy was pretty minor, but I doubt they would do a Kara-Tur book without bringing in some Asian persepctive, or Al-Quadim without getting a Middle Eastern take.


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## pukunui (Jan 7, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> To talk to anyone of African descent about the setting, let alone a real expert in the field: it was a good book, and the controversy was pretty minor, but I doubt they would do a Kara-Tur book without bringing in some Asian persepctive, or Al-Quadim without getting a Middle Eastern take.



OK, so the failure in this context was a failure to consult with people representing the real world culture(s) on which the fictional Chultan culture was loosely based?


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## Henry (Jan 7, 2019)

OB1 said:


> Why is it weird? Mercer regularly works with a variety of WoTC initiatives and likely has inside knowledge on the product line.




Also, not to sound too repetitive, but in response to the suggestions that D&D doesn’t work with Pirate themed settings, it seems to be working quite well in a Critical Role campaign right now, involving piracy, sea adventures, ship crews, and sea monsters and ancient curses. Even Glass Cannon podcast for Pathfinder had a series of riverboat water-based adventures about three years ago that still captured the spirit of D&D quite well.


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## Parmandur (Jan 7, 2019)

pukunui said:


> OK, so the failure in this context was a failure to consult with people representing the real world culture(s) on which the fictional Chultan culture was loosely based?




Yes, it was called out as such at the time, and Mearls and Perkins both said on social media that they felt it was a major error on their part and that they would change how they approach a non-European cultural setting in the future. Which is what Stewart seems to indicate.


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## pukunui (Jan 7, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Yes, it was called out as such at the time, and Mearls and Perkins both said on social media that they felt it was a major error on their part and that they would change how they approach a non-European cultural setting in the future. Which is what Stewart seems to indicate.



Huh. I must have missed all that. I enjoyed it for what it was, and I was under the impression that it had been well-received.


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## DQDesign (Jan 7, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Yes, it was called out as such at the time, and Mearls and Perkins both said on social media that they felt it was a major error on their part and that they would change how they approach a non-European cultural setting in the future. Which is what Stewart seems to indicate.




So do they think to be sufficiently ok in dealing with European culture or do they involve a consultant when dealing with it?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 7, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Yes, it was called out as such at the time, and Mearls and Perkins both said on social media that they felt it was a major error on their part and that they would change how they approach a non-European cultural setting in the future. Which is what Stewart seems to indicate.




I felt that ToA was told very much from the perspective of the colonial powers, rather than native cultures, which where barely fleshed out. Personally, I didn't have a problem with that, but I can see why some might.


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## Jhaelen (Jan 7, 2019)

I like 'Boats & '.


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## Imaculata (Jan 7, 2019)

Elderbrain said:


> I'm thinking this would be a good book to bring back some of the missing aquatic creatures such as the Locanthah, Aquatic Elves (I know MTOF provides PC rules, but give us NPCs and a little detail on culture, etc), the Hippocampus, and maybe even the Demon Lord Dagon... be nice if they included a chart specifying which are fresh-water and which are salt-water, as well as what happens if a critter from one kind of water enters the other (as was the case in the 3.5 supplement Stormwracked, I believe). Also effects on spells underwater and all that good stuff. More rules for shipboard weapons such as cannons/gunpowder?




Stormwrack was an amazing book for 3.5, and I'd love to see more books like it for 5th edition (even if I don't play 5th). I'm more interested in books that provide material for our campaigns, rather than books that provide the campaign itself. Tell me how to run naval encounters, provide me with more more aquatic creatures, new underwater gear and the stats for ships, and I'll make a pirate campaign around it myself.

View attachment 103993


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## JPL (Jan 7, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> What map are you looking at?




https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw2QLZSkrytrw6ZP_84kV8X_&ust=1546955408565844

There are whole continents that are little more than rumor.


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## JPL (Jan 7, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> This is perhaps an overlooked point. "Ships" doesn't have to mean "Pirates". Their is a whole sub-genre of navel adventure stories set during the age of sail which can serve as inspiration for a more serious* nautical campaign.
> 
> 
> *Pirates, although the reality was grim, have long been associated with light-hearted adventure, since long before Jack Sparrow came along. See Treasure Island (1883) and Peter Pan (1904).




Splitting the difference and making the PCs privateers . . . licensed pirates, more or less . . . is probably a good angle.  Another good angle would be to clearly set up a major naval power as Lawful Evil (Zhents on a boat?), in order to accommodate Chaotic Good / Chaotic Neutral PCs.


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## Bitbrain (Jan 7, 2019)

JPL said:


> Splitting the difference and making the PCs privateers . . . licensed pirates, more or less . . . is probably a good angle.  Another good angle would be to clearly set up a major naval power as Lawful Evil (Zhents on a boat?), in order to accommodate Chaotic Good / Chaotic Neutral PCs.




Amn might work better than the Zhentarim.
Reading through Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Amn seems (to me anyway) to have a kind of "Spanish Empire" feel, which would make them a perfect LE/LN opponent on the high seas.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jan 7, 2019)

Bitbrain said:


> Amn might work better than the Zhentarim.
> Reading through Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Amn seems (to me anyway) to have a kind of "Spanish Empire" feel, which would make them a perfect LE/LN opponent on the high seas.




Amn or Calimshan would seem like the best choices for a "rival empire" for a Sword Coast adventure, with Waterdeap as the "Royal Navy" equivalent.

The Zhents might back a pirate fleet, but they would hardly muster a fleet of their own (unless it's a reanimated fleet of ghost ships).


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## JPL (Jan 7, 2019)

Bitbrain said:


> Amn might work better than the Zhentarim.
> Reading through Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide, Amn seems (to me anyway) to have a kind of "Spanish Empire" feel, which would make them a perfect LE/LN opponent on the high seas.




Indeed.  Maybe the Zhents are more along the lines of the East India Company . . . all lawyers, muskets, and money.


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## WaterRabbit (Jan 7, 2019)

Derren said:


> First, no cannons.




In the Forgotten Realms there are cannons.  



> Second, trigger happy mages.




If cannons are present, they typically will outrange low level mages.  Without cannons, boarding actions would be more common, so not that much different than land actions.  Just some extra complications.



> Third, D&D being a group game where everyone wants in on the action instead of the captain making the decision (especially trigger happy mages).




Other RPGs make this work (like Star Finder) and it looks like the ship rules they released for comment give some nod to this.  I think they missed a few roles in their nautical supplement, but the concept mostly works.



> Forth, a completely different combat mechanic for naval engagements. You have flying, said mages and soon players will find out that with some magic they can attack ships from below which is very risk free.




It doesn't really require a different mechanic unless you want to make it a war game instead of an RPG.  And they factors have been true with all version of D&D and in thousands of games run.  So what?



> And then there are all the different races with all their different takes and technology levels for their ships (at least when you follow FR lore).




So?



> So my expectation is that any D&D nautical book will be a complete mess and requires an extra suspension of disbelieve to work. And that does not even address the problem of how to integrate ship vs ship combat where most of the time the entire party will have only one ship and thus one or two guys making the important decisions while the others are at best supporting roles into a game which spends a lot of effort on having everyone be effective in combat. That is a completely different mindset. Not to mention that naval combat usually requires several concepts D&D specifically ignores like facing.




You make this sound difficult -- it isn't.  I have done it many, many times with every version of D&D.  DMG does have rules for facing.  It doesn't have very good rules for creatures and objects that are long compared to wide, but in ship-to-ship combat running it like a wargame would be kind of dull anyway.



> And apart from combat a lot of problems of sailing like provisions, etc. are solved by low level spells and generally ignored for land travel anyway, so nothing you can fill a book with. This even extends to the motivation of being a pirate in the first place as money is plentiful in D&D and you get enough of it by simple adventuring. So why be a pirate which takes more effort and is not in any way less dangerous?




Yes, this is what magic is for, to solve problems.  However, even in a magic rich world like the Forgotten Realms, not every ship will be staffed with mages and clerics.

Being a pirate is just a different from of adventuring.  Also, I would assume the PCs are more likely fighting pirates and/or using nautical transportation to take them to an adventuring site.  _Sindbad and the Seven Seas_ comes to mind.



> I would be surprised if WotC manages to solve all this problems but I do not believe it.




Life is full of surprises. Hopefully this supplement will be one.


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## Istbor (Jan 7, 2019)

Mmmm. This news bodes well.  My players still dream of a mercantile fleet of their own. And with the provincial capital under siege,  and a blockaded port, naval stuff would fit well. 
I am very interested in this book, I hope it comes out in earlier spring, like April or something. 

I am also interested to learn more about these new minis by wizkids.  I am still looking for ship minis, rather than big platforms I can put other figs on. 

Seriously excited about this.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 7, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Huh. I must have missed all that. I enjoyed it for what it was, and I was under the impression that it had been well-received.




It was a very minor controversy, and the book was still well received: but Mearls & Co. did own the criticism publically, and are apparently learning from it moving forwards, which is good.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 7, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I felt that ToA was told very much from the perspective of the colonial powers, rather than native cultures, which where barely fleshed out. Personally, I didn't have a problem with that, but I can see why some might.




I thought it was a great book, and enjoyed it: but there are things they could have done to improve it significantly, from a cultural sensitivity point of view, without much work. Cultural sensitivity is not my usual hobby horse, but setting a book in Darkest Afr...Chult bears more careful thought given the history there.


----------



## JPL (Jan 7, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Huh. I must have missed all that. I enjoyed it for what it was, and I was under the impression that it had been well-received.




I thought it was a missed opportunity in that "Black Panther" gave Afrocentric nerdery a big shot in the arm in 2018, and I was hoping for something more like the Forgotten Realms equivalent of Wakanda.


----------



## WaterRabbit (Jan 7, 2019)

JPL said:


> I thought it was a missed opportunity in that "Black Panther" gave Afrocentric nerdery a big shot in the arm in 2018, and I was hoping for something more like the Forgotten Realms equivalent of Wakanda.




I would prefer a bit more verisimilitude in my fantasy.  Wakanda cannot exist for basic economic reasons -- an isolationist country with an autocratic government and a rare resource.  That country exist in the real world -- Venezuela.


----------



## JPL (Jan 7, 2019)

WaterRabbit said:


> I would prefer a bit more verisimilitude in my fantasy.  Wakanda cannot exist for basic economic reasons -- an isolationist country with an autocratic government and a rare resource.  That country exist in the real world -- Venezuela.




I meant "Forgotten Realms equivalent of Wakanda" more in the general sense of "place that is really awesome and really African."  But I'd go a step further, and say, "place that is every bit as awesome as Sharn or Waterdeep."

But a rare resource is not a bad hook.  Maybe this region has some unusual forms of magic --- Incarnum?  Something more like the 4th Edition "primal" power source?

By the same token . . . what if one of the new products for 2019 is an India / Nepal / Tibet kinda thing, and they are based around psionics rather than arcane magic?

And we can go there in our Boats and .


----------



## generic (Jan 7, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I do not understand how people keep making this mistake. WotC and/or WizKids did not invent The Falling Star. It was created by Chris Perkins long before he became a professional game writer. There is a nice, long article about the ship in the current issue of Dragon+, talking about how Chris Perkins created the ship back when he was a teenager and how it eventually became the design for the miniature. The ship was first announced at the beginning of August, so it was in the planning stages for months before that and, from the article, was in the planning stages before it ended up becoming a miniature of The Falling Star.




Perhaps you should have induced enough of a ratiocination to realize that some may be ignorant to your sources before utilizing caustic rudeness.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jan 7, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Amn or Calimshan would seem like the best choices for a "rival empire" for a Sword Coast adventure, with Waterdeap as the "Royal Navy" equivalent.
> 
> The Zhents might back a pirate fleet, but they would hardly muster a fleet of their own (unless it's a reanimated fleet of ghost ships).




I like Calimshan too much for that, but I do like the idea of being Calishite merchant marines, caught between an expanding "Royal Navy" and "Spanish Armada" of the upper Sword Coast and Amn. 

Which brings me to this. You don't need to be on a vessel whose purpose is to get into fights to have adventures on the whale roads.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jan 7, 2019)

WaterRabbit said:


> I would prefer a bit more verisimilitude in my fantasy.  Wakanda cannot exist for basic economic reasons -- an isolationist country with an autocratic government and a rare resource.  That country exist in the real world -- Venezuela.




Sure it can. Venezuela was doing great until it's leader started dipping into the rainy day fund while also not paying into it, and then died, and was succeeded by an imbecile that doesn't seem to actually care if his people literally starve while he eats cake. 

Wakanda has magic spirits helping it avoid that kind of leadership stupidity, and a much rarer and more valuable resource than oil, which is found in large quantities in dozens of countries spread around the world. The unrealistic part (other than the spirits and the magical metal, obviously) is the notion that you can be isolationist and gain wealth and advancement like Wakanda has. It doesn't work. 

A fantasy version might simply have residuum, or it might have oricalcum, which has some fancy properties that make it worth shipfulls of gold per ounce. 

But the point of Wakanda is to have a highly advanced African nation that is unscathed by imperialism. That's easily translated to dnd.


----------



## Sorcerers Apprentice (Jan 7, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Sure it can. Venezuela was doing great until it's leader started dipping into the rainy day fund while also not paying into it, and then died, and was succeeded by an imbecile that doesn't seem to actually care if his people literally starve while he eats cake.
> 
> Wakanda has magic spirits helping it avoid that kind of leadership stupidity, and a much rarer and more valuable resource than oil, which is found in large quantities in dozens of countries spread around the world. The unrealistic part (other than the spirits and the magical metal, obviously) is the notion that you can be isolationist and gain wealth and advancement like Wakanda has. It doesn't work.
> 
> ...




For the purpose of D&D I'd much rather they'd be inspired by real world African empires like Mali, Zimbabwe and Ethiopia than superhero nonsense like Wakanda. Those places were on par with European and Asian countries in the late medieval period that most closely aligns with the D&D technology and societal level.


----------



## WaterRabbit (Jan 7, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Sure it can. Venezuela was doing great until it's leader started dipping into the rainy day fund while also not paying into it, and then died, and was succeeded by an imbecile that doesn't seem to actually care if his people literally starve while he eats cake.
> 
> Wakanda has magic spirits helping it avoid that kind of leadership stupidity, and a much rarer and more valuable resource than oil, which is found in large quantities in dozens of countries spread around the world. The unrealistic part (other than the spirits and the magical metal, obviously) is the notion that you can be isolationist and gain wealth and advancement like Wakanda has. It doesn't work.
> 
> ...




Nope, it has never happened in history -- not even once.  If you believe Venezuela was doing great before Maduro then your definition of great must have a really, really low bar.  But if you are in love with Venezuela pick Cuba or North Korea instead as examples.  Or African examples such as Zimbabwe -- pick your poison really.  Even the Soviet Union looked good for a while (at least to those that never looked to hard). 

But beside that, there are better fantasy Africa sources to provide inspiration and still maintain the feel of a pre-colonial version of Africa.  

But one has to go quite a bit back in history to find that.  The difficulty with Africa is really finding a time in which indigenous cultures were not dramatically influenced by outside civilizations.  Even going back to Pharaonic Egypt they were involved in sub-Saharan Africa.

Now there are a lot of people that are silly enough to make this about "race" -- it isn't.  There are simple geographic factors that can been seen in many other locales that dramatically influence how civilizations develop.

The problem with trying to create a cultures that just are analogs to real world cultures is that they tend to ignore the climate, geography, flora, and fauna that influences the culture development.  One of the biggest factors ignored by fantasy works such as D&D is the difficulty of obtaining food.

Finally if you want Wakanda in D&D you have to look no further than Halruaa in the Forgotten Realms.


----------



## JPL (Jan 8, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I like Calimshan too much for that, but I do like the idea of being Calishite merchant marines, caught between an expanding "Royal Navy" and "Spanish Armada" of the upper Sword Coast and Amn.
> 
> Which brings me to this. You don't need to be on a vessel whose purpose is to get into fights to have adventures on the whale roads.




Nice kenning, son!


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jan 8, 2019)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> For the purpose of D&D I'd much rather they'd be inspired by real world African empires like Mali, Zimbabwe and Ethiopia than superhero nonsense like Wakanda. Those places were on par with European and Asian countries in the late medieval period that most closely aligns with the D&D technology and societal level.




I’m fine with any of those, or much better, a mix of them and some new stuff, written by people steeped in the lore of the people of those regions. 

I don’t know why you’re calling Wakanda “superhero nonsense”, though. You don’t...you don’t think that what we’re doing here in DnD land is above superheroes in the hierarchy of serious creative media, do you? 

Because it ain’t. It’s all silly nonsense we do for fun. Elves and wizards aren’t any less silly than Black Panther and Storm.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jan 8, 2019)

WaterRabbit said:


> Nope, it has never happened in history -- not even once.  If you believe Venezuela was doing great before Maduro then your definition of great must have a really, really low bar.  But if you are in love with Venezuela pick Cuba or North Korea instead as examples.  Or African examples such as Zimbabwe -- pick your poison really.  Even the Soviet Union looked good for a while (at least to those that never looked to hard).
> 
> But beside that, there are better fantasy Africa sources to provide inspiration and still maintain the feel of a pre-colonial version of Africa.
> 
> ...




Hey, bud, political discussion isn’t allowed here. 

Also, making it about race when no one else is, is weird and awkward. Stop it.


----------



## SkidAce (Jan 8, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Because it ain’t. It’s all silly nonsense we do for fun. Elves and wizards aren’t any less silly than Black Panther and Storm.




View attachment 104001


...hehe...


----------



## JPL (Jan 8, 2019)

Hey, I think I'm on to something with that India / Tibet / Nepal psionics book, which is going to be another 5th edition setting + crunch combo book.  Write that down, people.  We shall go their in our new boats.


----------



## Quickleaf (Jan 8, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Huh. I must have missed all that. I enjoyed it for what it was, and I was under the impression that it had been well-received.






Paul Farquhar said:


> I felt that ToA was told very much from the perspective of the colonial powers, rather than native cultures, which where barely fleshed out. Personally, I didn't have a problem with that, but I can see why some might.




Well said. I'm enjoying ToA too, but there is a lot of lore hinted at / implied in ToA, and to get at it you have to closely read between the lines and do your own research into products from past editions. 

For example: the concept of "matumbe" (a forbidden magic involving possession/warlock-like pacts) was referenced in past products, actually plays a very significant role in ToA, but never is called out as such nor is it mentioned how the native cultures view it. Another example: how do the Chultan people view dreams in light of the presence of 3 night hags for the last century? Another example: how is Omu viewed by the peoples of Chult? Another example: where are the survivors of the Eshowe tribe or are there none, and what befell Eshowdow? Another example: have _all_ the human tribes in the jungles gone extinct, or do some remain, and what are their cultures like?

If you compare ToA to another 5e module of similar length – Storm King's Thunder – in SKT there's about 4-and-a-half pages devoted to giant culture, King Hekaton's story, and the current giant leaders. I really think ToA is missing something like this for Chultan culture. 

The intro to ToA is much more condensed...and generally, that's an aesthetic value I appreciate...to dive right into the adventure. However, when dealing a setting gamers are less familiar with than "bog standard pseudo-Western European fantasy" – and I'd argue a pseudo-pan-African inspired setting qualifies – then you really do need some pages devoted to that culture so the DM can give a verisimilitudinous presentation of the setting. With a bit of editing, I could easily see 3-4 pages on Chultan culture being included without changing the book's overall page count.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 8, 2019)

Quickleaf said:


> Well said. I'm enjoying ToA too, but there is a lot of lore hinted at / implied in ToA, and to get at it you have to closely read between the lines and do your own research into products from past editions.
> 
> For example: the concept of "matumbe" (a forbidden magic involving possession/warlock-like pacts) was referenced in past products, actually plays a very significant role in ToA, but never is called out as such nor is it mentioned how the native cultures view it. Another example: how do the Chultan people view dreams in light of the presence of 3 night hags for the last century? Another example: how is Omu viewed by the peoples of Chult? Another example: where are the survivors of the Eshowe tribe or are there none, and what befell Eshowdow? Another example: have _all_ the human tribes in the jungles gone extinct, or do some remain, and what are their cultures like?
> 
> ...




I was kind of surprised that there was zero support for the concept that maybe then PCs would be Chultans investigating the situation themselves: only outsiders need apply.


----------



## Quickleaf (Jan 8, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> I was kind of surprised that there was zero support for the concept that maybe then PCs would be Chultans investigating the situation themselves: only outsiders need apply.




Indeed. I had about 1 month of prepping ToA before we started the campaign and that was a glaring issue I also noticed. I addressed this by putting together a player primer PDF which presented the option to choose between being a traveler/outsider (differentiated more by background) vs. a native of Chult (differentiated more by race). My players mostly chose to be natives.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 8, 2019)

Aebir-Toril said:


> Perhaps you should have induced enough of a ratiocination to realize that some may be ignorant to your sources before utilizing caustic rudeness.




Considering the regular threads here about each issue of Dragon+ and considering the initial announcement of the ship model back in August was discussed in a thread here also, maybe you are the ignorant one.


----------



## Bitbrain (Jan 8, 2019)

Quickleaf said:


> Well said. I'm enjoying ToA too, but there is a lot of lore hinted at / implied in ToA, and to get at it you have to closely read between the lines and do your own research into products from past editions.
> 
> For example: the concept of "matumbe" (a forbidden magic involving possession/warlock-like pacts) was referenced in past products, actually plays a very significant role in ToA, but never is called out as such nor is it mentioned how the native cultures view it. Another example: how do the Chultan people view dreams in light of the presence of 3 night hags for the last century? Another example: how is Omu viewed by the peoples of Chult? Another example: where are the survivors of the Eshowe tribe or are there none, and what befell Eshowdow? Another example: have _all_ the human tribes in the jungles gone extinct, or do some remain, and what are their cultures like?
> 
> ...




This is exactly why, when given the opportunity to buy either SKT or ToA, I bought SKT.

The information on the cities, tribes, cultural quirks, and locations within the SKT was MUCH easier to find and understand, as the authors took their time and explored the different cultures located within the Savage Frontier.

Meanwhile, within ToA that same kind of information was divided up and scattered throughout, making it much harder to get a good picture in my head of what the cultures in Chult are actually like.

Fortunately, they seem to have gone back to the SKT model, at least in the two Waterdeep adventures.


----------



## generic (Jan 8, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Considering the regular threads here about each issue of Dragon+ and considering the initial announcement of the ship model back in August was discussed in a thread here also, maybe you are the ignorant one.




Perhaps.  I apologize for my fiery response.  I wrote it when I was rather tired, after spending too long on the forums.


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jan 8, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> I was kind of surprised that there was zero support for the concept that maybe then PCs would be Chultans investigating the situation themselves: only outsiders need apply.




I was surprised by this as well, one of my latest ToA players asked to be a local chultan out of the bat.  I allowed it and gave him proficiency in history (with the intent to be used for chultan history if it comes up, specially those related to the myths and Ubtao). In addition he was working for the Harbor Master at Port Nyanzaru so he knew of some of the NPCs in the city.


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jan 8, 2019)

Quickleaf said:


> Indeed. I had about 1 month of prepping ToA before we started the campaign and that was a glaring issue I also noticed. I addressed this by putting together a player primer PDF which presented the option to choose between being a traveler/outsider (differentiated more by background) vs. a native of Chult (differentiated more by race). My players mostly chose to be natives.




This is fantastic, I wish I had done something like it for my players.  Good job!


----------



## JPL (Jan 8, 2019)

What's important here is that the sidekick rules will support awakened parrots.  The rest is details.


----------



## WaterRabbit (Jan 8, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Hey, bud, political discussion isn’t allowed here.
> 
> Also, making it about race when no one else is, is weird and awkward. Stop it.




There is nothing political or racial here.  You are the one making it weird.

Also pal, I am not your bud.


----------



## JPL (Jan 8, 2019)

He's not your buddy, friend.


----------



## Gradine (Jan 8, 2019)

JPL said:


> He's not your buddy, friend.




I'm not your friend, guy.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jan 8, 2019)

Gradine said:


> I'm not your friend, guy.



I'm not your mama, Papa.


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 8, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Sorcerers Apprentice (Jan 8, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’m fine with any of those, or much better, a mix of them and some new stuff, written by people steeped in the lore of the people of those regions.
> 
> I don’t know why you’re calling Wakanda “superhero nonsense”, though. You don’t...you don’t think that what we’re doing here in DnD land is above superheroes in the hierarchy of serious creative media, do you?
> 
> Because it ain’t. It’s all silly nonsense we do for fun. Elves and wizards aren’t any less silly than Black Panther and Storm.




Superheroes are on an entirely different level of silliness than anything that isn't comedy or made for preschoolers


----------



## Reynard (Jan 8, 2019)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> Superheroes are on an entirely different level of silliness than anything that isn't comedy or made for preschoolers




Wow. That's some harshly judgemental stuff right there from someone who likes to pretend to be an elf.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jan 8, 2019)

WaterRabbit said:


> There is nothing political or racial here.  You are the one making it weird.
> 
> Also pal, I am not your bud.




Okay, chief. 

I’ll try to remember that you don’t like neighborly colloquialisms that don’t actually imply any friendship.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jan 8, 2019)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> Superheroes are on an entirely different level of silliness than anything that isn't comedy or made for preschoolers




LOL nah

Pretending to be an elf wizard with a pet that can talk to you telepathically is MUCH sillier than a Black Panther comic book. DnD isn’t higher art than comics. To think it is requires an ignorance of one or both mediums.


----------



## gyor (Jan 8, 2019)

Am I the only one who thinks APs shouldn't have to do the work of a FRCG or regional guides. They never had to in previous editions, but the setting is so poorly supportered that they do. 

 And WotC really needs stop making every book try and do the job of a bunch of books, because is ruining the quality and they are only doing it because of the snail release schedule. 

 Dungeon of the Mad Mage was the best book A-side from the core because it's specialized it try and be a regional guide and a monster manuel, it was just a really,  really well done dungeon, it didn't try to do a whole bunch of other things like all the other none core 5e book. 

 In fact in my opinion,  some kind of FRCG or similar sizable product should be considered core product meaning for me the core isl unfinished.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jan 8, 2019)

gyor said:


> In fact in my opinion,  some kind of FRCG or similar sizable product should be considered core product meaning for me the core isl unfinished.




Nope. "Core" means just that: core, universal and essential to more or less all games.

While FR remains the most popular campaign setting by a wide margin, it's still not used in a majority of games. (In every survey WotC has released the answers for, "homebrew" beat FR handily.)

An FR campaign setting is useless to lots of people, and _less_ than useless--actually harmful--if declared (or even widely considered) part of the "core" experience.


----------



## Henry (Jan 8, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I'm not your papa, son.
> 
> Woah.
> 
> It's getting weird, isn't it?




I ain't no senator's son. 

Papa was a rollin' stone.

And I was the only Hell my momma ever raised.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 8, 2019)

gyor said:


> Am I the only one who thinks APs shouldn't have to do the work of a FRCG or regional guides. They never had to in previous editions, but the setting is so poorly supportered that they do.
> 
> And WotC really needs stop making every book try and do the job of a bunch of books, because is ruining the quality and they are only doing it because of the snail release schedule.
> 
> ...




They have a specific business plan with the "lack of focus." I heard Mearls on the Happy Fun Hour say that he wanted Xanathar's to be about 60% of tables...as long as each table was looking at a different 60%. He specifically cited the name lists as something WotC has gotten very positive feedback from a large percentage of customers, though many tables will put that in the useless 40% of the book for them. By making large boxes, they increase the odds a given book will be useful and worth buying. A given book may or may not work for you overall, but they aren't doing it because they are confused, there is a method at work, and it seems to be successful.


----------



## gyor (Jan 8, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> They have a specific business plan with the "lack of focus." I heard Mearls on the Happy Fun Hour say that he wanted Xanathar's to be about 60% of tables...as long as each table was looking at a different 60%. He specifically cited the name lists as something WotC has gotten very positive feedback from a large percentage of customers, though many tables will put that in the useless 40% of the book for them. By making large boxes, they increase the odds a given book will be useful and worth buying. A given book may or may not work for you overall, but they aren't doing it because they are confused, there is a method at work, and it seems to be successful.




 If Mike Mearls said the sun is purple you'd believe him. And of XGTE was 60% table I would have gone no where near it. 

 Honestly I've been extremely,  extremely patient with WotC,  but honestly I've had enough of subpare products that glimmer with potential that is unrealized. 

 Until WotC gets it's act together, I'm done, I give up on the hope that they will organize and focus their books properly. If they do some something right and put out a quality focused book, I'll buy it,  but till then I'm with books that don't know what they want to be. 

 And a lot young players don't know any better because they've only know 5e, they don't know how book used to be organized. Not ever book coming out should feel like a compilation of borderline random Dragon Magazine articles.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 8, 2019)

gyor said:


> If Mike Mearls said the sun is purple you'd believe him. And of XGTE was 60% table I would have gone no where near it.
> 
> Honestly I've been extremely,  extremely patient with WotC,  but honestly I've had enough of subpare products that glimmer with potential that is unrealized.
> 
> ...




The 60% number wasn't that the book would be composed of tables, but that a given table of players would find 60% of the book useful to them. Their goal is to provide a wide variety of content in any given product.

If a given book doesn't...float your boat...no worries. Don't buy it. Maybe the next one will.

They have a strategy with the "lack of focus" that is working. Not to your taste, but their books continue to be received well and sell well, so I doubt that will change anytime in the forseeable future. If "focus" doesn't sell, and "lack of focus" sells, well...


----------



## Azzy (Jan 8, 2019)

gyor said:


> Until WotC gets it's act together, I'm done




LOL. Thanks for the public announcement. I'll pass on to WotC that you are quite cross with them.


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 8, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Parmandur (Jan 8, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Why do you taunt me.
> 
> By Gygax's Eternal Obfsucation, I now want a book that isn't 60% tables, but 100% tables!
> 
> ...




Not gonna lie, I'd be all about that. Particularly if they were names.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Jan 8, 2019)

JPL said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&sou...aw2QLZSkrytrw6ZP_84kV8X_&ust=1546955408565844
> 
> There are whole continents that are little more than rumor.




Fair enough. I thought you were focusing on Faerun, but like most D&D settings, they do still have continents they haven't and probably never will do anything with.


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 8, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## JPL (Jan 8, 2019)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Fair enough. I thought you were focusing on Faerun, but like most D&D settings, they do still have continents they haven't and probably never will do anything with.




I had forgotten that there's a whole Australia analogue down there.  What a strange campaign that would be.  No armor, and the only weapons are Rock, Blunt Stick, Sharp Stick, and Magic Returning Throwing Stick.

Some kind of South Seas / Indonesia / Polynesia analogue would be very cool, and would pair well with the nautical rules.  

I figure the great secret of the mariners of the Forgotten Realms is that if you know how to find them, the oceans are full of portals to other planes, magical shortcuts, etc.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jan 8, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Why do you taunt me.
> 
> By Gygax's Eternal Obfsucation, I now want a book that isn't 60% tables, but 100% tables!
> 
> ...



It's tables all the way down!


----------



## Sorcerers Apprentice (Jan 8, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> LOL nah
> 
> Pretending to be an elf wizard with a pet that can talk to you telepathically is MUCH sillier than a Black Panther comic book. DnD isn’t higher art than comics. To think it is requires an ignorance of one or both mediums.



The silliness of superheroes have nothing to do with the medium.


----------



## Retreater (Jan 9, 2019)

Honestly, what I want more than anything they can announce for 5E is the return of access to the online tools of 4E. I'm running two 4E campaigns, and those tools would be lifesavers for us. (I'm also running two 5E campaigns, so I'm not trying to engage in an edition war - but there's not a lot more I need from 5E at this moment.)


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Retreater (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I doubt that would happen. There is no reason for WoTC to keep putting in money for supporting an old edition with on-line tools; at best, you should hope that they OGL 4e and allow others to have an on-line presence for it.
> 
> I wouldn't hold my breath on that, though; as nice as that would be, I'm sure that the beancounters would prefer people not to be playing editions they are no longer monetizing.




To be fair, I think they used to charge a monthly subscription for access to the 4E online tools. Even at $5/month I would be spending more on that than I do on 5E resources at this point. I know there are costs associated with this, but I wonder how much they would be?

And they are monetizing PDFs of older editions already. Maybe just allow someone to host it and give them a cut of the profits (if any)?


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 9, 2019)

If there was money in it, they would still be offering it


----------



## THEMNGMNT (Jan 9, 2019)

I'm fairly confident that this will be an adventure, not a supplement. A few months ago I was at a release party for Art & Arcana, and I overheard beta playtesters discussing two different adventures they were playing. One was "the pirate thing". (I'm not going to reveal the other adventure they mentioned, even though I'm not under NDA.) Based upon that overheard conversation, I think it's an adventure.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 9, 2019)

THEMNGMNT said:


> I'm fairly confident that this will be an adventure, not a supplement. A few months ago I was at a release party for Art & Arcana, and I overheard beta playtesters discussing two different adventures they were playing. One was "the pirate thing". (I'm not going to reveal the other adventure they mentioned, even though I'm not under NDA.) Based upon that overheard conversation, I think it's an adventure.




The conversation about this book suggested a supplement, which makes sense since Kate is in design, not story: but the next AP might be sea related as well: Mad Mage was in playtesting since ~2016, IIRC from the rumor mill. Also, unfair to tease the other part you overheard and not share.


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## THEMNGMNT (Jan 9, 2019)

I work in marketing. It makes my life difficult when people spoil my reveals--I'd hate to do it to someone else.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jan 9, 2019)

THEMNGMNT said:


> I work in marketing. It makes my life difficult when people spoil my reveals--I'd hate to do it to someone else.




Respect for this.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 9, 2019)

THEMNGMNT said:


> I work in marketing. It makes my life difficult when people spoil my reveals--I'd hate to do it to someone else.




Oh, no fun.


----------



## MNblockhead (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Why do you taunt me.
> 
> By Gygax's Eternal Obfsucation, I now want a book that isn't 60% tables, but 100% tables!
> 
> ...




I'd go for that, but only if using the tables involves math.  ;-)


----------



## Henry (Jan 9, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> It's tables all the way down!




More tables than a chamberful of Congressional motions at Christmas!
More tables than a Handbook of Chemistry and Physics!
More tables than a Microsoft Excel training class!
More tables than a vbulletin database! MORE! MORE! MORE!


----------



## doctorbadwolf (Jan 9, 2019)

Sorcerers Apprentice said:


> The silliness of superheroes have nothing to do with the medium.




Okay. Way to miss the point. 

Superheroes aren't sillier than dragons and elf wizards.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 9, 2019)

Speculative fiction is a softer way to talk about our reality, but we have to take care. If you really want to convice you can't force them to agree you, and if you don't listen, understand their point of view and you disrespect them, then they will not trust you to be conviced by you.

Not always fantasy kingdoms are a reflection of our real past, but sometimes they may be reflection of our dreams, or our fears. Wakanda was created as an Utopia to show us Africans have the potential to create a better future if they fix their troubles. An utopian realm as Wakanda is possible in a D&D world if their people are enough honest, worker and competent, and rules by the right managers or administrators and the right recipe of economy about free market. Remember the dessert is becoming a garden or orchand in Israel.  

Sometimes I have tried to created plots about arcane and divine spellcasters because the cleric tell they want to defend us but we have to obey their rules, and they want to controll the mana lines, and wizards are envidied and feared by the muggle masses, and they don't want the mana sources by controlled by the clerics. They like nothing to be controlled by anybody who doesn't suffer consecuences when makes a mistake. 

Osse is the equivalent to Australia in Abeir-Toril. I would add elemental planar gates where alien visitors arrive from the world of Athas (Dark Sun). And Abeir, the twin brother of Toril may be a place where add new or strange things.  

We can't forget the other planets in Realmspace. Karpri and Chandos are two oceanic worlds.


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Azzy (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


>




I see you, and raise you rapier-wielding gnome paladins.


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Gradine (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


>




View attachment 104029


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Gradine (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> ...




View attachment 104031


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## gyor (Jan 9, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> The conversation about this book suggested a supplement, which makes sense since Kate is in design, not story: but the next AP might be sea related as well: Mad Mage was in playtesting since ~2016, IIRC from the rumor mill. Also, unfair to tease the other part you overheard and not share.




 That is very logical. If it's a sword coast adventure it's a skip for me,  if it's the Sea of Fallen Stars I get it as long as it does a good job of detailing the region.


----------



## Prakriti (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


>



Oh man, I remember this picture. It represents the moment when I, as an 8-year-old kid, finally woke up to the fact that comic-book art is really, really silly.


----------



## gyor (Jan 9, 2019)

I had a weird idea,  but what if the new pirate book is like the SCAG for the Sea of Fallen Stars, but with a pieate section.


----------



## Gradine (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> ...




View attachment 104032


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## flametitan (Jan 9, 2019)

gyor said:


> I had a weird idea,  but what if the new pirate book is like the SCAG for the Sea of Fallen Stars, but with a pieate section.




That would be interesting, but I suspect that if it'll have lore, it'll be more like Volo's Guide to Monsters: non-specific enough to be usable in the Realms, but not directly Realmsian lore aside from a couple references.


----------



## Gradine (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> ...




View attachment 104034


----------



## Reynard (Jan 9, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Oh man, I remember this picture. It represents the moment when I, as an 8-year-old kid, finally woke up to the fact that comic-book art is really, really silly.




Your 8 year old self missed the point. You should have woke up to the fact that Liefeld is a no talent hack who got lucky once.


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## doctorbadwolf (Jan 9, 2019)

lowkey13;7547078

<image>[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I'm sure we can think of several things in DnD and other TTRPGs that are equally silly.
> 
> Like 5e halflings.
> 
> ...


----------



## lowkey13 (Jan 9, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


----------



## Satyrn (Jan 9, 2019)

Martha.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 10, 2019)

So, Greg Tito confirmed a nautical book on his D&D News segment yesterday. All he said beyond that is that the full announcement should be in "about a month-ish." So we should know about this in detail before Valentine's Day.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jan 10, 2019)

Neither heroic fantasy nor a superheroic adventure can approach the average daytime soap opera for silliness.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 10, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Neither heroic fantasy nor a superheroic adventure can approach the average daytime soap opera for silliness.




US or Mexican?


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jan 10, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> US or Mexican?




Or British or Australian.

It's the same the world over.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 10, 2019)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Or British or Australian.
> 
> It's the same the world over.




Have you ever watched a Spanish-language soap opera? Their craziness puts the English-language ones to shame.  lol


----------



## Henry (Jan 10, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Have you ever watched a Spanish-language soap opera? Their craziness puts the English-language ones to shame.  lol




Crazier than serial killers killing whole towns, aliens coming down to look for magic crystals, or demon-possessions?

My personal favorite back in the 1970s (God I'm old) was "SOAP", which was written specifically to spoof the soaps of the time. My favorite was the Catholic Priest's Satan-possessed newborn baby storyline...
_
[Tim has asked for volunteers to help him perform an exorcism]
Benson DuBois: I'll go. My mother always said to me, she said: "Son, meet the devil the eye and meet him straight on. You can't wrestle him to the ground unless you've got ahold of him first!"
*[the house shakes with evil power]*
Benson DuBois: My mother was a babbling fool is what she was! Major crackpot, everyone knew it! She was nuts! _


----------



## Gradine (Jan 10, 2019)

Yeah, several of the most popular US soaps featured tortured/romantic vampires _long_ before _Twilight_ was a twinkle on Robert Pattinson's chest (to say nothing of Buffy).

In any case, see also: K-Dramas


----------



## Twiggly the Gnome (Jan 10, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Have you ever watched a Spanish-language soap opera? Their craziness puts the English-language ones to shame.  lol




Crazier than a cross-over with the Avengers?

View attachment 104050


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 10, 2019)

Bobby Ewings wasn't dead, only a bad dream. 

Peter Parker wasn't married with Mary Jane Watson. Second World War endend in 1942 in Superman #17 when our favorite Kryptonian arrested Hitler. 

Age of mortals started in Krynn. Kenders could survive and live happily in a post-apocalypse world like "The Walking Dead".


----------



## Azzy (Jan 11, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Kenders could survive and live happily in a post-apocalypse world like "The Walking Dead".




Nah, they got their buts handed to them on Taladas. Kender can't handle something more than that.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jan 12, 2019)

For those who want to go and listen to/watch it, yesterday's Sage Advice (Jan 11) was about the rules for underwater adventuring. I have not watched yet, but I wonder if they let slip any info on the next book?


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 12, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> For those who want to go and listen to/watch it, yesterday's Sage Advice (Jan 11) was about the rules for underwater adventuring. I have not watched yet, but I wonder if they let slip any info on the next book?




I haven't listened to it yet, but my wager is that they don't spoil the new book as such, but it will slot in well with the new book announcement and the Dragon Talk podcast being able to talk about that once they've edited it all together.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jan 13, 2019)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> For those who want to go and listen to/watch it, yesterday's Sage Advice (Jan 11) was about the rules for underwater adventuring. I have not watched yet, but I wonder if they let slip any info on the next book?




I always thought it probable that the "ship book" would also expand the underwater rules.


----------



## matt jones3 (Jan 14, 2019)

Wondering if we will ever get dark sun setting for 5th


----------



## vecna00 (Jan 14, 2019)

matt jones3 said:


> Wondering if we will ever get dark sun setting for 5th




Mearls has said on his Happy Fun Hour "When, not if," for Dark Sun. It's coming, just no idea when.

We will have a better guess as the 5e Psionics goes through another playtest or two.


----------



## dave2008 (Jan 15, 2019)

matt jones3 said:


> Wondering if we will ever get dark sun setting for 5th




So far the 5e team has been very reliable about producing what they say they will, and they have said they will do Dark Sun.  So I would guess that we will indeed see Dark Sun in the future.  However, the real question is when will it come out?  Based on where we are currently I don't think it is coming in 2019.  Based on the comments from the interview I don't think it is coming in 2020 either.  Maybe 2021?  It could of course, slip into '19 or '20 as product similar to the "Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron."  I playtest type of document.  I guess it depends what they mean by 3-4 major releases.


----------



## dave2008 (Jan 15, 2019)

Henry said:


> Crazier than serial killers killing whole towns




But wasn't that because the show was ending and they just decided to kill of all the characters to end the show?  I least that is the story i heard.


----------



## gyor (Jan 16, 2019)

dave2008 said:


> So far the 5e team has been very reliable about producing what they say they will, and they have said they will do Dark Sun.  So I would guess that we will indeed see Dark Sun in the future.  However, the real question is when will it come out?  Based on where we are currently I don't think it is coming in 2019.  Based on the comments from the interview I don't think it is coming in 2020 either.  Maybe 2021?  It could of course, slip into '19 or '20 as product similar to the "Wayfinder's Guide to Eberron."  I playtest type of document.  I guess it depends what they mean by 3-4 major releases.




 PDFs don't count as major releases.


----------



## dave2008 (Jan 16, 2019)

gyor said:


> PDFs don't count as major releases.




That is my thought as well - so if that is the case:  we could see Dark Sun this year or next as non-major release similar to Eberron.


----------



## vecna00 (Jan 16, 2019)

dave2008 said:


> That is my thought as well - so if that is the case:  we could see Dark Sun this year or next as non-major release similar to Eberron.




As soon as the psionics rules are finished, Dark Sun will be around the corner* in either PDF or print.

*Relatively speaking, of course.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 16, 2019)

In D&D NEws yesterday, Greg Tito said that new 2019 products would be "coming earlier than you think" but that as far as when announcements are coming he would be "playing by ear."

Feels like this book might be in stores in April or March, like Curse of Strahd...

He also says the product is "not what people are guessing" on the forums and social media.


----------



## Satyrn (Jan 16, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> As soon as the psionics rules are finished, Dark Sun will be around the corner* in either PDF or print.
> 
> *Relatively speaking, of course.




Well here's hoping you're right, and they don't take another 4 years playtesting the thri-kreen


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 16, 2019)

Satyrn said:


> Well here's hoping you're right, and they don't take another 4 years playtesting the thri-kreen




Literally no such thing as too much playtesting. That being said, Mearls has specified the time table for a new Class is ~2 years of playtesting, Races/Subraces or Subclasses are quicker.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 16, 2019)

Dark Sun only need a psionic class, but somebody may miss the others, like the wilder, the soulknife, warmind, ardent or lurker.

If a new class need two years, then let's forget Tarak-Tur. That is a setting to put new classes like the sohei or 5th Ed version of the martial adepts (crusader, swordsage and warblade). And al-Qaudim also needs its sha'ir class, maybe with a game mechanic like the vestige binder.


----------



## generic (Jan 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> In D&D NEws yesterday, Greg Tito said that new 2019 products would be "coming earlier than you think" but that as far as when announcements are coming he would be "playing by ear."
> 
> Feels like this book might be in stores in April or March, like Curse of Strahd...
> 
> He also says the product is "not what people are guessing" on the forums and social media.




Well... If he is not being untruthful, then it's time to start formulating new guesses!


----------



## Satyrn (Jan 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Literally no such thing as too much playtesting. That being said, Mearls has specified the time table for a new Class is ~2 years of playtesting, Races/Subraces or Subclasses are quicker.



If you're interested in participating in some joketesting, I'd appreciate if you answered my quick survey:

Would you have laughed if I had ended my post with a smiley face?


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 16, 2019)

Satyrn said:


> If you're interested in participating in some joketesting, I'd appreciate if you answered my quick survey:
> 
> Would you have laughed if I had ended my post with a smiley face?




I reckon.


----------



## pukunui (Jan 16, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Literally no such thing as too much playtesting.



There very much is such a thing as not enough playtesting, though. As we have discussed elsewhere, too much of what’s in books like XGE feels half-baked to me. As a fan of psionics, I would very much prefer that WotC take however much time they need to actually get it right, rather than release buggy mechanics with the expectation that I, as consumer, will patch it myself.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 17, 2019)

OK, I listened to the Dragon Talk Sage Advice video about underwater combat. It was a pretty straightforward review of the DMG and PHB rules that were relevant, however...they dropped a fee interesting bits. After discussing Aquaman, Tito said that it was great fuel for campaign ideas alongside the rules they had just discussed and "ummmm...upcoming products..." In addition, they teased that there might be some product discussion at PAX South this coming weekend, and while going through upcoming third party products Tito cracked that he had no idea why a to-scale sailing ship would be useful, and made Crawford break down laughing, and then talk about how weird it is to talk about anything at this time of the year before they have made any announcements.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 17, 2019)

pukunui said:


> There very much is such a thing as not enough playtesting, though. As we have discussed elsewhere, too much of what’s in books like XGE feels half-baked to me. As a fan of psionics, I would very much prefer that WotC take however much time they need to actually get it right, rather than release buggy mechanics with the expectation that I, as consumer, will patch it myself.




I agree in principle, although I haven't seen anything problematic in the books so far.


----------



## pukunui (Jan 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> I agree in principle, although I haven't seen anything problematic in the books so far.



Arcane archer and redemption paladin from XGE are two examples that spring to mind. Both could have used another editing / playtesting pass before being published.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 17, 2019)

pukunui said:


> Arcane archer and redemption paladin from XGE are two examples that spring to mind. Both could have used another editing / playtesting pass before being published.




Neither seemed all that off in prior reads, what in particular (other than the art still reflecting a non-armored Paladin)?


----------



## Jacob Lewis (Jan 17, 2019)

Did anyone speculate on the most obvious nautical theme yet? 

D&D: Gilligan's Island! Who's your "Little buddy"?


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jan 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> OK, I listened to the Dragon Talk Sage Advice video about underwater combat. It was a pretty straightforward review of the DMG and PHB rules that were relevant, however...they dropped a fee interesting bits. After discussing Aquaman, Tito said that it was great fuel for campaign ideas alongside the rules they had just discussed and "ummmm...upcoming products..." In addition, they teased that there might be some product discussion at PAX South this coming weekend, and while going through upcoming third party products Tito cracked that he had no idea why a to-scale sailing ship would be useful, and made Crawford break down laughing, and then talk about how weird it is to talk about anything at this time of the year before they have made any announcements.




Well, I'm a bit confused. Tito says that it's not what people are guessing, and then goes and drops hints like these that seem to confirm that it's what people are guessing (ship and underwater adventuring rules)! Unless, perhaps, he's referring to all the Spelljammer speculation? Otherwise, I'm thinking there's some sort of twist that we haven't seen yet, where, yes, we're getting ship and underwater stuff, but something related outside that...


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 17, 2019)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Well, I'm a bit confused. Tito says that it's not what people are guessing, and then goes and drops hints like these that seem to confirm that it's what people are guessing (ship and underwater adventuring rules)! Unless, perhaps, he's referring to all the Spelljammer speculation? Otherwise, I'm thinking there's some sort of twist that we haven't seen yet, where, yes, we're getting ship and underwater stuff, but something related outside that...




He made that comment after sharing an article that was speculating specifically about the ship UA from the other month, and he didn't say nobody was on track, just that the main thrust of people's focus was off. Based on the Sage Advice conversation, I think Aquaman might be more in line with what we'll be seeing from Kate's book than Pirates of the Carribean...


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 17, 2019)

It strikes me that, along with Sea Elves getting scanty information, Triton's having only a vague bit in Volo's, the lack of Piscoloths in MToF, that one of the most odd things missing from Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica was...Merfolk. Maybe they were saving that for another book?


----------



## pukunui (Jan 17, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Neither seemed all that off in prior reads, what in particular (other than the art still reflecting a non-armored Paladin)?



I don't particularly want to derail another thread, so suffice it to say that I thought both got hit a little too hard with the nerf-bat. The arcane archer's magic arrows went from OP to weak-sauce, while the redemption paladin feels like it's missing something (which it essentially is, since they cut out one feature and didn't replace it with anything).



Parmandur said:


> It strikes me that, along with Sea Elves getting scanty information, Triton's having only a vague bit in Volo's, the lack of Piscoloths in MToF, that one of the most odd things missing from Guildmasters Guide to Ravnica was...Merfolk. Maybe they were saving that for another book?



Why save merfolk for another book but not sea elves? Besides, we've had deep gnomes three times, so they're clearly not opposed to republishing content. They could have put merfolk in the Ravnica book *and* the undersea book. That's probably what they'll do with the sea elves. I'm afraid your line of thinking just doesn't hold water ...


----------



## MechaTarrasque (Jan 17, 2019)

I haven't had a chance to watch this yet, but it is advertised that Jeremy Crawford is talking about underwater combat at:  https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/01/14/sage-advice-on-underwater-combat-dragon-talk/.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 17, 2019)

pukunui said:


> I don't particularly want to derail another thread, so suffice it to say that I thought both got hit a little too hard with the nerf-bat. The arcane archer's magic arrows went from OP to weak-sauce, while the redemption paladin feels like it's missing something (which it essentially is, since they cut out one feature and didn't replace it with anything).




Based on listening to the Happy Fun Hour, alternate AC calculations like the Monk and Barbarian have, and was proposed for the Redemption Paladin, are considered mechanics-neutral ribbons, for flavor and RP as much as anything. The Barbarian can get equivalent AC from wearing Medium Armor and using a shield, outside of double 18 scenarios. While I do think it leaves the redemption Paladin a little flat narratively speaking, mechanically I don't see that it makes a big difference to lose a ribbon. Haven't looks too closely at the Arcane Archer UA vs. final product, but the final subclass has been fairly attractive to me looking through it.



pukunui said:


> Why save merfolk for another book but not sea elves? Besides, we've had deep gnomes three times, so they're clearly not opposed to republishing content. They could have put merfolk in the Ravnica book *and* the undersea book. That's probably what they'll do with the sea elves. I'm afraid your line of thinking just doesn't hold water ...




Fair enough; one difference for Ravnica might have been space, as it is very possible they had to shave for space to fit it in the page coutn as is.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 17, 2019)

MechaTarrasque said:


> I haven't had a chance to watch this yet, but it is advertised that Jeremy Crawford is talking about underwater combat at:  https://www.sageadvice.eu/2019/01/14/sage-advice-on-underwater-combat-dragon-talk/.




Ayup; as mentioned above, it is primarily a review of the underwater rules from the DMG and PHB, with a conversation about Aquaman and dancing around saying anything definitive about the upcoming product.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Jan 18, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> [*]In 2020, there will be a couple of products that will touch on cultures that don't usually get exposure in their products — “I will say that in 2019 I don’t think that we’re going to get much more culturally diverse with the content that’s in there, but in 2020 we’re going to go…really…lots of different diverse stuff that brings in some different cultures and some different influences. We’re bringing in a lot of consultants this year to kind of vet the product…make this stuff… You won’t see much of it in 2019, but 2020 products I think will have a couple major products that have a lot of influence from cultures that we have not really touched on before that I think are pretty prevalent. I don’t want to give away too much, but I’m proud of the influences and the work that they’re doing, and how they’re doing it.”



My late guess, Persia and South Asia could be rich sources.


----------



## vecna00 (Jan 18, 2019)

So Kate Welch tweeted this out a few hours ago. Could be nothing, could be something.

https://twitter.com/katewelchhhh/status/1086089803714547713


----------



## CapnZapp (Jan 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Literally no such thing as too much playtesting.



When it comes to the new, glacial, WotC publishing schedule, that is no longer true.


----------



## gyor (Jan 18, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Dark Sun only need a psionic class, but somebody may miss the others, like the wilder, the soulknife, warmind, ardent or lurker.
> 
> If a new class need two years, then let's forget Tarak-Tur. That is a setting to put new classes like the sohei or 5th Ed version of the martial adepts (crusader, swordsage and warblade). And al-Qaudim also needs its sha'ir class, maybe with a game mechanic like the vestige binder.




 Most of those will likely be handled via subclasses like they did with the Samurai. 

Sohei,  either monk or fighter subclass for example. Shi'iar was just a Wizard subclass in 4e,  so I doubt that will change in 5e. All of them can be fit in as subclasses. Even weird stuff like Clock Work Mage from Al Qadim could be done as an Artificer subclass.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 18, 2019)

CapnZapp said:


> When it comes to the new, glacial, WotC publishing schedule, that is no longer true.




Going into five years now, nothing terribly new about the D&D publishing paradigm at this point. Indeed, the slow and steady release rate is proof of my statement.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 18, 2019)

vecna00 said:


> So Kate Welch tweeted this out a few hours ago. Could be nothing, could be something.
> 
> https://twitter.com/katewelchhhh/status/1086089803714547713




Based on Dragon Talk, it sounds like they might make an announcement at PAX South in the next 2-3 days.


----------



## SkidAce (Jan 18, 2019)

Parmandur said:


> Based on Dragon Talk, it sounds like they might make an announcement at PAX South in the next 2-3 days.




Boo...

Soon(tm) should always mean at least the same day when tweeting...


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 18, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> Boo...
> 
> Soon(tm) should always mean at least the same day when tweeting...




They do have Twitch stuff this afternoon: they didn't say there would be an announcement at the Con, but suggested they would be talking about it there. If they announce stuff on Twitch today, put out a press release, and talk it up at the convention...seems reasonable.


----------



## SkidAce (Jan 18, 2019)

She has a show.

https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1086307237428191233


----------



## Prakriti (Jan 18, 2019)

SkidAce said:


> She has a show.
> 
> https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/1086307237428191233



"Welch's Game Juice?" Sounds like Cease & Desist bait.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jan 18, 2019)

gyor said:


> Most of those will likely be handled via subclasses like they did with the Samurai.
> 
> Sohei,  either monk or fighter subclass for example. Shi'iar was just a Wizard subclass in 4e,  so I doubt that will change in 5e. All of them can be fit in as subclasses. Even weird stuff like Clock Work Mage from Al Qadim could be done as an Artificer subclass.




I don't agree. Some concepts should be base classes, or like pathfinder archetypes, a optional list of class features (for example the gladiator from Dark Sun 2nd Ed. Some players would rather a no-core class to feel their characters are different. And ninja, sohei and samurai (and swashbuckler) may be a softer way to introduce the game mechanic of the (ki) maneuvers and the martial adept classes. Sha'ir could be recycled to reintroduce the vestige pact magic, with a great potential for story hooks. Do remember some 3rd party publishers sell their own soucerbooks with new classes. 

Now I notice the swashbuckler class could be perfect for aventures about ships and pirates.


----------



## Azzy (Jan 18, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> like pathfinder archetypes, a optional list of class features




That pretty much describes subclasses.


----------



## Parmandur (Jan 19, 2019)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I don't agree. Some concepts should be base classes, or like pathfinder archetypes, a optional list of class features (for example the gladiator from Dark Sun 2nd Ed. Some players would rather a no-core class to feel their characters are different. And ninja, sohei and samurai (and swashbuckler) may be a softer way to introduce the game mechanic of the (ki) maneuvers and the martial adept classes. Sha'ir could be recycled to reintroduce the vestige pact magic, with a great potential for story hooks. Do remember some 3rd party publishers sell their own soucerbooks with new classes.
> 
> Now I notice the swashbuckler class could be perfect for aventures about ships and pirates.




That's not really the design philosophy of Classes in 5E


----------



## oknazevad (Jan 20, 2019)

Prakriti said:


> Oh man, I remember this picture. It represents the moment when I, as an 8-year-old kid, finally woke up to the fact that comic-book art is really, really silly.




Oh, cmon, it's plain not fair to judge the artform on the work of one of the most over-hyped hacks in the industry who is now properly considered a genuinely terrible artist coasting on a thirty-year-old reputation from when he was still decent before he got lazy.


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## oknazevad (Jan 20, 2019)

Jacob Lewis said:


> Did anyone speculate on the most obvious nautical theme yet?
> 
> D&D: Gilligan's Island! Who's your "Little buddy"?




Is that when a three-hour session turns into a three-year campaign (with a follow up animated series, three TV movies – one featuring the Harlem Globetrotters – and another animated series set IN SPAAAACE!) ?


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