# Critical threat range



## Borthos (Dec 6, 2010)

Using only WotC printed books, how low can you get the crit range for a weapon with an 18-20 crit range, such as the scimitar or Elven Thinblade?


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## Dandu (Dec 6, 2010)

Anything with base crit of 18-20. (3 steps).
Improved Critical: 15-20. (6 steps).
4th level in Disciple of Dispater: 9-20 (6x2= 12 steps).
8th level in Disciple of Dispater: 3-20 (6x3= 18 steps).


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## Borthos (Dec 6, 2010)

Aww man I would love to do that but this is a good campaign.  Anything else?


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## Gorith (Dec 6, 2010)

Lightning Mace Feat (Complete warrior i believe), Aptitude ability on a high crit weapon, Imp crit feat, warblade 7 (battle cunning ,battle ardor, Blood in the water), swashbuckler3 (insightful strike), and factotum (cunning insight). Stack your int and demolish throw in 2w fighting feats to make it even worse and get an aptitude tigerclaw kukri to shore up your attack bonus

just trying to remeber how to improve the crit range even further... word of warning your gm may hate you for doing this depending on how highpowered his game is. also dont do this if the other PCs arnt munchinized major power rifts irritate other players as they can feel redundant


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## Borthos (Dec 6, 2010)

Thanks Gorith, but I don't believe an Aptitude weapon would help me in the critical threat range, but damage, and imho it's not worth paying for the bonus.

Lightning Mace feat only works for the maces and only gives extra attacks, which would be useful if I was using maces, however I'm not.

The Warblade bit would be great for confirming the hits, I'll take that in mind.

The Swashbuckler and Factotum ideas are nice, but not really what I'm looking for.  I'm looking more for critical threat range increase, not damage increase or attack bonus, those are helpful.


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## Sekhmet (Dec 6, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Anything with base crit of 18-20. (3 steps).
> Improved Critical: 15-20. (6 steps).
> 4th level in Disciple of Dispater: 9-20 (6x2= 12 steps).
> 8th level in Disciple of Dispater: 3-20 (6x3= 18 steps).




I don't see the 3-20 move, Dandu. Usually I agree with your arguments, but I'm pretty sure this rounds out to only 9-20 with an Iron/Steel Scimitar.

 It starts at 18-20 (3steps).
 You double that for Imp. Crit, 15-20.
 You again double the base threat range of the weapon (18-20) to drop it another three points to 12-20. 
 Another 3 brings it to 9-20.

 Isn't it just a base threat modifier and not a total threat modifier?


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## Jhaelen (Dec 6, 2010)

Borthos said:


> Using only WotC printed books, how low can you get the crit range for a weapon with an 18-20 crit range, such as the scimitar or Elven Thinblade?



3.0 or 3.5? If the latter, 15-20 is the bestyou will get. However, you can get rid of the confirmation roll.


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## Borthos (Dec 6, 2010)

It is 3.5.  Why is that the lowest it will get in 3.5?


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## Dandu (Dec 6, 2010)

Sekhmet said:


> I don't see the 3-20 move, Dandu. Usually I agree with your arguments, but I'm pretty sure this rounds out to only 9-20 with an Iron/Steel Scimitar.
> 
> It starts at 18-20 (3steps).
> You double that for Imp. Crit, 15-20.
> ...



Hm, yes, it does seem that my math was off. I forgot that multipliers in DnD work differently than they do in real life.

You can get it doen to 8-20 with the Streetfighter Barbarian.

Streetfighter Barbarian ACF
Class: Barbarian.
Level: 7th.
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain damage reduction at 7th level, or any of the improvements to damage reduction at higher levels.
Benefit: The barbarian gains the ability to swiftly bring the fight to his foe and to hit him hard.At 7th level, the critical threat range of any charge attack he makes, or any attack he makes against a flat-footed foe, increases by 1. (Thus, a greataxe would threaten a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20.) This ability stacks with the Improved Critical feat or the keen weapon enhancement.


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## Empirate (Dec 6, 2010)

Borthos said:


> Thanks Gorith, but I don't believe an Aptitude weapon would help me in the critical threat range, but damage, and imho it's not worth paying for the bonus.
> 
> Lightning Mace feat only works for the maces and only gives extra attacks, which would be useful if I was using maces, however I'm not.
> 
> ...




I think you misunderstand how Aptitude weapons work. What they do is the following: whatever weapon-specific feats you may have, you can apply their effects to the Aptitude-enchanted weapon. 
Lightning Maces is specific for light maces, so if you have two Kukris with the Aptitude enchantment, you can use them and still get the same effect _as if _you were using light maces.
With Improved Critical etc., that's a lot of extra attacks, which can be crits again and so on. Blood in the Water helps to get obscene damage output. The only thing I don't like about that build is the fact that it relies on crits. So many things are immune!


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## Jhaelen (Dec 6, 2010)

Borthos said:


> It is 3.5.  Why is that the lowest it will get in 3.5?



In 3.5 all sources of effects that double the threat range state that they do not stack with other sources doubling the threat range. Should you find a 3.5 book that doesn't mention this, it has probably been errataed (or should be ).


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## Borthos (Dec 6, 2010)

Empirate said:


> I think you misunderstand how Aptitude weapons work. What they do is the following: whatever weapon-specific feats you may have, you can apply their effects to the Aptitude-enchanted weapon.
> Lightning Maces is specific for light maces, so if you have two Kukris with the Aptitude enchantment, you can use them and still get the same effect _as if _you were using light maces.
> With Improved Critical etc., that's a lot of extra attacks, which can be crits again and so on. Blood in the Water helps to get obscene damage output. The only thing I don't like about that build is the fact that it relies on crits. So many things are immune!




So I would have Weapon Focus (Light Mace) and use the Kukri's in place if they have Aptitude? 




Jhaelen said:


> In 3.5 all sources of effects that double the threat range state that they do not stack with other sources doubling the threat range. Should you find a 3.5 book that doesn't mention this, it has probably been errataed (or should be ).




Oh ok.  We usually allow a lot of 3.0 books and things for prestige classes.


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## Empirate (Dec 7, 2010)

Borthos said:


> So I would have Weapon Focus (Light Mace) and use the Kukri's in place if they have Aptitude?




Exactly. You'd get the +1 to hit from Weapon Focus (Light Mace) with your Aptitude Kukris, and you'd get the extra attack on a threat from Lightning Maces with your Aptitude Kukris, on every threat from your Aptitude Kukris.


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## Borthos (Dec 7, 2010)

Oh wow I must've misread that because that's awesome.


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## Hrothgar Rannúlfr (Dec 11, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> However, you can get rid of the confirmation roll.




How do you get rid of the confirmation roll?


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## Jhaelen (Dec 13, 2010)

Hrothgar Rannúlfr said:


> How do you get rid of the confirmation roll?



I'm away from my books, but there's an arcane spell in the SC that will definitely do it, and IIRC, there's one or two feats in the PHB2 and/or a luck feat in Complete Scoundrel. There might also be a maneuver in the ToB that has this property.


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## DumbPaladin (Dec 13, 2010)

That one's a bit easier: bless weapon is the easiest way to get it (against evil creatures), and there's a sacred scabbard in MIC that will cast bless weapon on your item 3x/day.

There's another spell that auto-confirms criticals, but it escapes me right now.


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## Jeffrie (Dec 26, 2010)

Revisiting this because i read all/most of the PHbII and Scoundrel and couldn't find any reference to auto-confirming crit (except luck rolls, which are cool, but twice a day will not fix all the crits a 15-20 range will get). 

I guess i should go re-read the CW? or perhaps ya'll know the answer?

For the record; i'm puzzling with the thinblade in the off hand for crits with TWF. So i might as well ask: Longsword in the primary hand? or should i look for something else?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 26, 2010)

Well, in core, there's a Paladin spell to do that...

"In addition, all critical hit rolls against evil foes are automatically successful, so every threat is a critical hit. This last effect does not apply to any weapon that already has a magical effect related to critical hits, such as a keen weapon or a vorpal sword."

In other words, you'd need Imp. Crit feat instead of the Keen enhancement if you wanted to use that for your crit build.


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## Jeffrie (Dec 26, 2010)

OK, got some stuff.

1  http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Better_Lucky_Than_Good; Turn natural one into natural twenty. Great. Except you need two luck feats as a pre.
2  http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Fortuitous_Strike; One luck roll to re-attack (link has cost flipped from book). Need one luck feat as pre.
3  http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Unbelievable_Luck; MUST HAVE- Gain +2 on weakest save and 2 luck rolls to pool.
4  http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Victor~s_Luck; One luck to re-roll confirmation and gain one luck. Pretty cool if your confirmation is 30%+.

**5 http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Power_Critical; THIS IS IT: Add +4 to crit confirmation with selected weapon. (3x2=6+4=50%) and YES IT STACKS. Not a luck roll, yes a fighter feat all day long.
    Add to a luck feat or two and this hits when you want. 

Still looking, but that might be it.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 26, 2010)

Better Lucky Than Good is one/day, regardless of how many luck rerolls you have.

Power Critical exists, but it also sucks generally.  I've never felt the need to spend a feat on it.  If I had Intelligence to spare, I'd rather just dip Warblade (Tome of Battle).  A few levels in, you get to add your int mod on critical confirmation rolls.  No feat expenditure, and pick up some nice maneuvers along the way.


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## Jeffrie (Dec 26, 2010)

Would Factotum 'Brains over Brawn' add int to crit re-roll? 

I was shown a rule once by a dm. It allowed proficiency/feat with a weapon to include certain other weapons under it in a type/subtype relation. (example; if you have Weapon Specialization with a greatclub you have it with a club) There were a few sword relationships that were less obvious in the rule. 

Anybody help with that reference?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Dec 26, 2010)

A crit confirm roll uses the same to hit bonus as the attack that threatened, so if you had already applied your int bonus on hte attack roll with an inspiration point, it would apply.  If you mean you want to add the int mod on only the confirmation roll because you hadn't applied it to the attack...  I've seen people claim the confirm roll somehow is not "an attack," but as far as I'm concerned...it succeeds automatically on a 20 and fails automatically on a 1...it's an attack.  I think wasting an inspiration point on the confirm roll is mechanically not that great a usage, but whatever.

EDIT: Brains Over Brawn does nothing.  Attack rolls may use str or dex in them, but they are not str or dex _checks_.  A "check" is something entirely different.  Most notably, checks don't auto fail or succeed on a 1 or 20, attacks and saves do.  I thought you were asking about Cunning Insight or whatever it's called that lets you blow an insp. point to add int to an attack roll.


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