# Complete Arcane - Though Bottle abuse and Magic Item Creation



## Mucknuggle (Nov 13, 2004)

> A new magic item in CA allows you to store Experience, costing 500 XP.
> 
> It might be debatable that its referring to level loss only until you hit ...
> 
> ...




WOAH! If that is the text for the item, then you can craft items and use the bottle to "load" your previous self to regain all that XP that you just lost for crafting. What a *broken* item.


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## Zappo (Nov 13, 2004)

If that's how it works, it's clearly an oversight on the writer's part. It would still be overpowered if it didn't allow regaining XP lost to item creation, but allowed you to regain levels lost to _raise dead_ spells. I would rule that it only restores negative levels and XP lost from negative levels.


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## Anabstercorian (Nov 13, 2004)

I figured the whole point of it was to help poor wizards cope with the confusing and debilitating after-effects of their Clone spells.


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## Non-human Resources (Nov 13, 2004)

Ah, it is clearly a Save Game Bottle.

Before fighting the Balor - "We use the Thought Bottle to save our XP"
After fighting the Balor - "We use the Thought Bottle to save our XP"

Before kissing the Succubus - "We use the Thought Bottle to save our XP"
After kissing the Succubus - "We use the Thought Bottle to save our XP and Liesure Suit Elf uses it to restore his lost levels."

"And then he saves his XP again."

Unless you really like hearing that phrase over and over, I suggest that you just rip that page out of the book so that you can say "No, I don't see it in the book at all.  You must be wrong, there is no such item."


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## ph34r (Nov 13, 2004)

How about only being able to store and retrieve from a single bottle once? Not so powerful now.


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## Piratecat (Nov 13, 2004)

Back in 2e it was cool; the thought bottle let you store unwanted secrets and thoughts in it. This definitely smacks of "lame" if it's correct, though.


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## Judas (Nov 13, 2004)

Complete Arcana, pg. 150







> *Thought Bottle:* A flask of thick green glass, a _thought bottle_ can be used to store thoughts, memories, experience, or spells. A single bottle can hold five thoughts or memories at a time, or a single creature's current experience, or a single spellcaster's collection of prepared spells. Any individual that toches the bottle and speaks the command word instantly gains a general knowledge of the bottle's contents, but doesn't actually access the thoughts, memories, or spells within until she consciously decides to do so. Storing or retrieving anything from a _thought bottle_ requires a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
> 
> _Thoughts:_ The bottle can store specific ideas, communications, or conclusions. Once a memory is stored, it disappears from the user's mind, but she remembers the general nature of the stored thought. For example, if the user stored the name of a murderer, that name would disappear from her memory and be unrecoverable from her own mind by any means, though she would know that the thought bottle now contains the murderer's name. Similarly, secret messages and intelligence can be hidden in a _thought bottle_ to pass them to someone else.
> 
> ...



The red word is what I cought as mistake. It should read thought and not memory.


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## Stormrunner (Nov 14, 2004)

My first reaction is to houserule that XP stored in the bottle is STORED, not copied.  While in the bottle, it's protected, but the PC can't expend the stored XP on things like item creation or casting spells with an XP cost.


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## Dakkareth (Nov 14, 2004)

I'd toss the XP-saving part out of the window and increase the thought capacity in exchange. Or maybe allow it to hold spells and a lower number of memories at the same time. 
If you want a Save Game Bottle, better make it a separate item with clear rules and hope, that the DM is lenient ...


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## Greybar (Nov 14, 2004)

So under the current wording it costs 500XP to "Save Game", basically, and one just 20,000gp item per player - start making them when your lead spellcaster hits 13th level, which is after you already have "partial save game" power through raise-dead-like stuff.

Hmm.. m-dhigh level D&D already has a pretty big "restart" power anyway, I'm not sure that this is too much worse, though I think I would make the XP cost scale up with the owner's level.

Also strike the "nothing bad happens if bottle lost/destroyed" line.  The GM should be required to think of nasty plots involving what happens when the bottle is destroyed, disjoined, or even supressed.  Even worse if a bad guy manages to steal it!  Telling the PCs that you're striking the "nothing bad" line should be enough warning to them.

john


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## Delemental (Nov 14, 2004)

One thought I had in reading this is noting that the bottle doesn't restore lost levels directly, but restores XP.  Though from a "fluff" perspective the bottle was probably meant to restore a character to exactly how they were at the time the bottle was used, from a "crunch" perspective you've got a character who has lost character levels and now has a big wad of XP.  Who's to say your 12th level fighter who was drained to 7th can't use the store XP to become a Fighter 7/Cleric 5?  Or take 5 levels of a new prestige class?

Again, it's something that no DM would probably ever allow, as it really violates the intent of the item, but from a purely theoretical standpoint the bottle now becomes not only a Save Game button, but an "Extreme Makeover: D&D Edition".


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## Andre (Nov 14, 2004)

_Experience: A thought bottle can be used *to offset level loss* as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even a restoration can't undo (Inculding levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently acess the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, *negating any level loss* in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is difficult, and the user must pay 500 XP (Deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored the experience can retrive it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects._

This passage refers repeatedly to using the thought bottle to offset level loss, not just xp loss. A strict reading would prevent the use of the bottle to restore xp given up in item creation (since the creator is not allowed to give up so many xp that he drops a level). Ditto for the use of _wish_ spells and the like. 

As for negating the level loss from death, depending on when the character stored the xp, he's likely to see a considerable loss in xp anyway. Assume the character always uses the thought bottle when gaining a level. At 12th level, he stores 66K xp or a bit more. While adventuring, he gains 8K xp. He then dies and is raised. His xp when he died was 74K. His xp when raised is 60.5K. His xp after using the bottle is 66K. 

Given the 500 xp cost each time it's used to store xp, seems about right to me.


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## the Jester (Nov 14, 2004)

Andre said:
			
		

> This passage refers repeatedly to using the thought bottle to offset level loss, not just xp loss. A strict reading would prevent the use of the bottle to restore xp given up in item creation (since the creator is not allowed to give up so many xp that he drops a level). Ditto for the use of _wish_ spells and the like.




I think we have a winner, folks- an interpetation of the item that seems to make it not-borken, usable, and priced about right.


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## Vecna (Nov 14, 2004)

Andre said:
			
		

> _
> This passage refers repeatedly to using the thought bottle to offset level loss, not just xp loss. A strict reading would prevent the use of the bottle to restore xp given up in item creation (since the creator is not allowed to give up so many xp that he drops a level). Ditto for the use of wish spells and the like.
> _



_

Yes, but you can:
1. Store XP in the bottle (i.e. at level 10).
2. Lose a level somehow (you are at level 9 now).
3. Gain XP to almost regain the lost level (almost 10).
4 .Use XP to make a magic item (back to low 9).
5. Repeat 3 & 4 as you wish (to 10-, 9+...)
6. Reload from bottle, regaining your old level (level 10 again!)._


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## Humanophile (Nov 14, 2004)

Vecna said:
			
		

> Yes, but you can:
> 1. Store XP in the bottle (i.e. at level 10).
> 2. Lose a level somehow (you are at level 9 now).
> 3. Gain XP to almost regain the lost level (almost 10).
> ...




In theory, a crafter with an energy-draining pal could abuse this.  (10something to 9.5, spend that .5 worth of experience on items, reset with the bottle, get re-drained, rinse, repeat).  So on the one hand, if the party has the resources to get all metagamey about it, the bottle's as broken as everyone says above.

If you're speaking of actually earning any experience in the interim, you come to the same issue that any other crafter would.  Yes, you're back at 10'th; your party's already pulled ahead of the common point you were all at.  And aside from the half-level's worth of XP you already have, any you earn is pretty much going to do what you would've done without losing 500 XP to dance around.  So short of built-in energy draining resources (which requires silly levels and/or DM approval in the first place), one can hope the "must have lost a level" restriction would keep the bottle about right.

(I do want to see a variation of the Clone spell that does what the memory function of the bottle seems meant to do, higher level and XP cost being understood as part of the deal.  But that's a specific-use spell, that can have cheat-resistance written in.)


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## Plane Sailing (Nov 15, 2004)

> Spells: An owner who prepares spells can store some or all of her *memorized *spells in a thought bottle.




PREPARED. Prepared prepared prepared.

Why can't even WotC get this right?


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## Dr_Zoidberg (Jan 31, 2010)

Humanophile said:


> So short of built-in energy draining resources (which requires silly levels and/or DM approval in the first place), one can hope the "must have lost a level" restriction would keep the bottle about right.




There are energy-draining undead creatures a character could control with spells or with Rebuke Undead.


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