# Good non-evocation anti-undead spells?



## Grog (Sep 12, 2003)

I need some ideas for anti-undead spells for a 10th level wizard with Evocation barred. Are there any out there, or will I be relegated to just buffing my party members?


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## Thanee (Sep 12, 2003)

Undeath to Death? Ahhh... darn, that's one level away still! 

How about ...

PHB: Melf's Acid Arrow, Web, Halt Undead, Flame Arrow, Slow, Evard's Black Tentacles, Polymorph Other (?), Summon Monster V, Shadow Evocation, Telekinesis

MoF: Mestil's Acid Breath

That enough arsenal to fight undead?

Bye
Thanee


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## youspoonybard (Sep 12, 2003)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Undeath to Death? Ahhh... darn, that's one level away still!
> 
> Assuming 3.5 ... how about ...
> 
> ...




Baleful Polymorph doesn't affect objects...does it?


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## Thanee (Sep 12, 2003)

Uhm... no, but undeads are not objects!?

Anyways, I just edited my above post to make it 3.0 

Bye
Thanee


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## Grog (Sep 12, 2003)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Uhm... no, but undeads are not objects!?




No, but because they don't have a Con score, they're immune to any effect requiring a Fort save unless it also affects objects.

Thanks for the other suggestions, though.


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## FrankTrollman (Sep 12, 2003)

Minor Image.

And no, I'm not kidding.

Minor Image allows you to make figments of a group of combatants. While the spell description says "an object, creature or force" - the actual example of what that means is "several orcs fighting".

The way figments work is that they appear real _until they are interacted with_. This means that against mindless undead, for example, you can keep them in boxes _forever_. Skeletons do not, inherently, walk into walls, so if you surround them with walls they will just stand there until someone orders them through or the party hacks them to pieces.

Against the beligerent near-mindless undead, you can do similar things. A shadow chases after the nearest perceived creature, which means that you can lead it on a merry goose chase with illusions _forever_.

Against intelligent undead, you've got a problem, but you can still buy your party a whole round every time you cast an illusion of a bunch of combatants. It doesn't even get a Will save until _after_ it attacks the "enemies" you've "conjured".

A properly sneaky Illusion can be as good as several rounds of attacks from the whole party. And since Undead have crap for hit points - that's usually plenty.

-Frank


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## FrankTrollman (Sep 12, 2003)

Minor Image.

And no, I'm not kidding.

Minor Image allows you to make figments of a group of combatants. While the spell description says "an object, creature or force" - the actual example of what that means is "several orcs fighting".

The way figments work is that they appear real _until they are interacted with_. This means that against mindless undead, for example, you can keep them in boxes _forever_. Skeletons do not, inherently, walk into walls, so if you surround them with walls they will just stand there until someone orders them through or the party hacks them to pieces.

Against the beligerent near-mindless undead, you can do similar things. A shadow chases after the nearest perceived creature, which means that you can lead it on a merry goose chase with illusions _forever_.

Against intelligent undead, you've got a problem, but you can still buy your party a whole round every time you cast an illusion of a bunch of combatants. It doesn't even get a Will save until _after_ it attacks the "enemies" you've "conjured".

A properly sneaky Illusion can be as good as several rounds of attacks from the whole party. And since Undead have crap for hit points - that's usually plenty.

-Frank


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## FrankTrollman (Sep 12, 2003)

(delete)


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## FrankTrollman (Sep 12, 2003)

(delete)


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## jgsugden (Sep 12, 2003)

FrankTrollman said:
			
		

> The way figments work is that they appear real _until they are interacted with_. This means that against mindless undead, for example, you can keep them in boxes _forever_. Skeletons do not, inherently, walk into walls, so if you surround them with walls they will just stand there until someone orders them through or the party hacks them to pieces.
> 
> -Frank




Interaction does not require a 'mind.' Interaction has to do with two entities performing an action where one causes a reaction from the other. Physical interaction is enough. 

Mindless undead are not truly mindless. As you noted, they follow directions and perceive their surroundings. They have some capacity to process information. Otherwise, they would not be able to process simple commands. If an evil cleric commands a skelton to 'kill anyone who enters this chamber' (which is the example given in the MM for a legit skeleton command), the skeleton must be able to understand how to kill a living creature, it must understand what an intruder is and it must understand what defines the chamber.

When they come across something that appears to defy their perceptions, they must process how to deal with the flaw. This is done with a saving throw, the same as for other creatures.

Had they intended for mindless undead to get no save versus figments, they would have spelled it out in the rules. Unless I missed it somewhere, this was not written into 3.5.


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## jgsugden (Sep 12, 2003)

(Double post)


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## FrankTrollman (Sep 12, 2003)

Yes, Mindless Undead can get Will saves if they interact with a Figment.

But unless they are ordered to by a controlling Cleric, they aren't going to.

Mindless Undead do not normally bash themselves against walls, and do not test their surroundings and do not "understand" the world around them. Their program does not the include physical testing of their surroundings required to reveal a suddenly appearing "wall of iron" as fake.

So when you create the illusion of a metal maze all around the skeletons, they'll happily wander around it indefinately - while the party (who can see through it) ready themselves and club individual skeletons like baby harp seals.

Mindless Undead have no particular defense against that tactic unless they are currently being controlled by a Cleric (or other spellcaster).

And of course, if you have a flesh-and-blood opponent on hand controlling the undead, an illusionist or enchanter has _lots_ of useful things to do.

-Frank


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## Caliban (Sep 12, 2003)

Glitterdust is a good spell, it can blind Undead.


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## Cyraneth (Sep 13, 2003)

I'm surprised _halt undead_ hasn't been mentioned yet. It's one of the most useful anti-undead spells a wizards got. Was it too obvious?

Of course, there's also the cute, little _disrupt undead_ spell, but nevermind...

LoD also contains the _devastate undead_ spell, but it's 8th level and if you're not undead yourself you're most likely in for a hurting...

- Cyraneth


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## Thanee (Sep 13, 2003)

Cyraneth said:
			
		

> I'm surprised _halt undead_ hasn't been mentioned yet. It's one of the most useful anti-undead spells a wizards got. Was it too obvious?




Seems so, must have missed that when looking through the spell list! 

Bye
Thanee


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## jgsugden (Sep 13, 2003)

FrankTrollman said:
			
		

> Yes, Mindless Undead can get Will saves if they interact with a Figment.
> 
> But unless they are ordered to by a controlling Cleric, they aren't going to.
> 
> ...




In the end, the DM will have to decide what 'interact' means in a game.

I just reread the section on 'saving throws and illusions (disbelief)' in the 3.5 PHB. It gives two options for getting a saving throw: 'Stop and study' or 'interact with it in some fashion'.

I think we'll both agree that 'mindless' undead can not stop and study an illusion. Perhaps if given specific instructions to do so, but generally not.

'Interact with in some fashion' sounds pretty broad to me. Adding 'in some fashion' indicates to me an attempt to broaden the scope of the language and create a very easily met requirement. If the presence of the illusion caused a reaction by the victim, it has interacted with the viewer in some fashion. 

The book then goes on to mention two fairly contradictory situations: It suggests probing an illusionary floor is what is sufficient to allow a saving throw, yet it then says that a character faced with proof that an illusion isn't real needs no saving throw. If I take a long stick and stick it through a seemingly solid looking piece of floor and my stick sinks one foot through the floor, that seems to be pretty 'solid' proof that the floor is not real, thus negating the need for a saving throw. It looks top me like they applied the same threshold to 'what is needed to get a saving throw' and 'what is needed to automatically disbelieve'. 

In the end, the DM has to decide exactly how to interpret what constitutes an interaction. My definition is anything that would change the actions of the victim (which is hard for the DM to figure out sometimes ... if the party knew a side hallway covered by an illusion of a wall was present, would they go down that hallway or go along the same path as they would go down if the side hallway was not there?)

**************

Back to the original subject, though, you might want to consider buying a wand. I find that Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is excellent against most undead. It is especially great against incorporeal foes. You may not be able to play 'hampster ball' with it anymore, but you can use it to keep yourself safe if the undead gets out of hand.


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## mzsylver (Sep 14, 2003)

Grog said:
			
		

> I need some ideas for anti-undead spells for a 10th level wizard with Evocation barred. Are there any out there, or will I be relegated to just buffing my party members?




chain command undead.

like dominate except for undead. oh ya baby.


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