# Adult: GUCK Development Forum again



## Death By Surfeit

(Author’s Note: I posted this a month ago, but it seems to have slipped into the Elsewhere of EnBoards or that of my home computer. This unsettles me somewhat, so I’m posting again to make sure.)

Welcome to the discussion topic for the editing of the great Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. It is advisable that you read all four existing versions of the guide - the Original Guide, the NUCK d20 conversion, the DbS d20 conversion and the beta Naked Blades conversion before contributing, but a little innocence can’t hurt.

Whilst this topic will eventually bicker over specific rules choices and whatnot, we must, alas, start at the beginning, and find out what we want to achieve before working out how to achieve it. The first few questions, then, are based around the nature of the guide itself. I want you to decide upon our eventual guide’s:

A) PURPOSE - What are we trying to provide in the form of the GUCK? A definitive resource for the more liberal groups amongst us? Ideas to spice up a mundane campaign? A jolly good read? Should we try to encompass all categories (no easy task), or concentrate on just the one? If we were to specialise, which area is most important in your opinion? Could other areas be covered in future supplements?

B) FOCUS - How hard is the ‘focus’ going to be within the GUCK? Are players mostly going to make rolls to judge their performance and leave the majority to their imagination, glossing over kinky aspects or viewing them in a humourous light (eg. DbS conversion)? Are we going to go for a round-by-round explanation, complete with graphic description (eg NUCK, Naked Blades conversions)? Perhaps something in-between, like the original guide? Bear in mind that if we decide a soft focus, we can always produce a hard focus supplement, or vice versa.

C) HUMOUR - Some guides (the original and DbS conversion) placed a strong emphasis on the guide being funny to read, with feats and spells as often a gimmick or pun as useful for their in-game effects. Others (the NUCK and Naked Blades conversions) prioritised game mechanics and resource material. What level of humour do you feel is appropriate or desirable for the guide?

D) SIZE - How compehensive do we want the guide to be? Should it be a simple rules system with a few guidelines for other things (eg DbS conversion and original guide), or should it be more sprawling, like the NUCK, encompassing story ideas, essays, theoretical stuff and so on? It’s a matter of balancing ease of reading and conciseness with potential for content.

That’s all for you to mellow over today, folks. Remember that you can say anything you like on these matters - nobody would be disappointed if you like to keep things clean, and likewise no-one can accuse you of perversion for fear of self-damnation (having taken part on this thread). Whilst I have taken the helm in the task, I can’t achieve a thing without your input - post whatever recommendations or suggestions you have, however tenuous your tie is to the netbook’s development. Every little helps.

Now lets hear some arguments fly!


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## Severion

>>- the Original Guide, the NUCK d20 conversion, the DbS d20 conversion and the beta Naked Blades conversion before contributing<<

Its been years since i've seen the original, and i'm unfamiliar with the others, could you provide a link??


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## kolvar

Been there already:
We decided to do a guide with rules, that do try to be mature without the humor of the old (although some of the spells would still reflect somthing of the humor)

It was quite some process to get to the rules, we have now (at least three revisions, as far as I remember, and the spells reflect that). 
The intend is, to give rather graphic rules, for those, who like it, with an additional (optional) rule for those, who do not.
Most of us would have liked to have more "essay"-like content with rules sprinkled in, like somthing about the role of prostitutes, a whore-house (and personally, I would have liked to get some aphrodisiacs), but alas, there was no one, who did it (and I went to my limits with the stuff about pregnancy. I like it, but I fear, it is not very good).
The lenght would be what is left after reducing/ clearing the spells (had some lists in the thread) and putting the web-enhancement into the guide.

Hope that clears a bit.

@Severion: take a look at my home-page or go to :
http://www.netbook-of-uck.net


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## Death By Surfeit

Thanks, kolvar. I missed an awful lot of the original discussion and it's good to be brought up to date. Assuming everyone checks with this ideal, we can start breaching into specific content - I simply needed to know where we were trying to go before taking any steps.

The main problem that we'll have to handle in the editing is problems with the core mechanics - a lot of the submitted material was based on differing rules sets that created a mesh of, say, spells that had similar ideas but vastly different effects (eg compare and contrast ecstasy and lust) and rules in one section that referenced a rule or even concept that was vacant in the rest of the guide (eg sexual delirium is a status condition never mentioned in the rest of the guide). In short, were going to have to sort out what the entire thing is based upon.

Now, in danger of letting my own opinions dominate proceedings, I have to say I have a few qualms with the 'Arousal check' concept - if we are attempting to provide a clearer and more mature version of the guide, I feel we should have a clearer and more definitive rules set to run with; even the DbS conversion, which I confess is purposefully soft-focus and light-hearted, covers proceedings with more detail! The abstract arousal timings and status causes havoc where spell descriptions and special rules are concerned, a factor which I think played a major part in rules discrepancies as people had to look to their own interpretations.

Before we can start chopping and changing content, we need a clear set of rules that covers what we want - no insult intended to its author, but I think the ambiguity of the present system is a major flaw - the concept is right, but it doesn't cover enough bases, as it were, to be applied properly. D&D is a mechanical and precise rules system, almost a wargame, and I feel that the NUCK d20 should reflect this. People should know what they can and can't do, and how they go about doing things - we cannot rely on the arbitration of GMs.

Again risking overstepping my role, my personal ambition when making the DbS conversion was for the two guides to merge together to form a stronger whole. Now, I see a greater potential - rather than exist as awkward siblings, the two could be different spins on the same concept, a 'softcore' and a 'hardcore' guide. The DbS could handle the silly aspect, the spells intended for humour only, the more irreverant rules (eg the dirty etchings generator), and so on. The NUCK would go into more detail, cover bases the DbS wouldn’t, give a system with more possibilities than its sibling. This way, we could hope to satisfy all needs whilst keeping a sense of unity. This also makes our lives a whole lot easier.

For example, if both guides used the same core mechanic (such as the Sexual Prowess check), the DbS would cover enough of the rules, the generic spells and so on to fuel the rest of the guide. The NUCK adds neat twists like sex tricks, special circumstances and more modifiers, giving the audience the tools for whatever they need. It would add the articles on pregnancy and racial sexualities, making it a more comprehensive resource. Whilst I’d need to edit two guides rather than one, a shared bond makes both tasks more enjoyable and more acheivable - furthermore it allows us to offer people two spins on the concept of the d20 GUCK, allowing them to choose the one they like.

Am I just dreaming here? If so, feel free to shake me out of my delirium and continue the editing. If not, tell me so - although we’d need a change of terminology. The DbS conversion would then be termed the soft-core netbook of unlawful carnal knowledge (SC NUCK), the netbook to unlawful carnal knowledge now the hardcore variant (HC NUCK).

Give me some feedback as to the above idea - if you don’t like the concept, we can get along with things anyhow; I still have things to discuss and other ideas to raise. If you do, say so and I can bring up the implications of such with regards the editing.

Cheers,

DbS


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## kolvar

Actually, I would even go so far as to make just one guide. Sometime ago there was a complete in the title. While we will never achieve this, we still can try to do it. And we are doing a pdf here, nothing out of paper and are therefor not bound by size.

I was never realy involved with the basic rules (only giving impressions and comments) and am not very good at them. I liked the ones, we got at the moment and would have to check yours.
Maybe you could give a list/ pro-contra of both systems and we can find a rule, that fits both. 
Ranger Wicket once asked, why we did not use the system from Tournaments, Fairs etc. While I think it is a great system to manage the competitions, I do not think of sex as a such. But maybe it is something additional, we could build on.


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## Sorn

I also think that having just one book would be better. Not only because that means half the work for me, but also for simplicity's sake. I already lug around 5 tons of gaming books when I am a player, more if I actually run something. Having to reference 2 different books (and of course having to remember which spell was in which one) will only add to the hassle. Plus, there will be a lot of repetition. A lot of the spells will be applicable to either book (especially when it comes to pregnancy, etc.) so do you really want to force people to get both. 

A lot of publishers have optional rules offered in sidebars and the like, so I think we can do the same without anyone complaining. I'll make sure to note optional rules as such when I do the layout.


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## Death By Surfeit

Good points, the both of you. I'll have to leave this as an uncharacteristically short post as midnight approaches and I could do with a little beauty sleep. Sometime tomorrow I'll have a full comparison of the rules sets with the possible avenues we could venture down written up for you, hard working person that I am.

Goodnight!


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## Death By Surfeit

Okay ladies and gentlemen, our last bout of rules-tweaking before we start editing is at hand: the formidable Arousal mechanic. Scrutinising the current d20 conversion system, I could see many advantages but also a few crucial weaknesses; I’ll omit the praise for now, and only bring up the issues that need attention.

• Status conditions: some conditions have an unclear distinction, such as the difference between Horny (a mental condition) and Aroused (a physical condition), made most evident by the fact that the Arousal spell induces... Horniness? Others are possibly a little too similar to each other (eg Horny/Lustful, Overstimulated/Sexually Delirious) to be really worthwhile. This is the area with the least application in the rest of the book - the conditions are seldom mentioned outside Chapter 1, and in some cases (eg lustfulness, sexual delirium, over-stimulation) not even outside their own entries.
I would recommend a handful of conditions laid down that correlate with the style of D&D conditions, upon which the spell descriptions and effects are based: this is one area in which the DbS conversion had an edge - perhaps we could use those condition statuses, with the addition of one representing the ‘delirious with pleasure’ state?

• Style: The rules don’t really mesh with the rest of 3rd edition - the Arousal check, for example, is in its heart an opposed check, and nowhere else is a skill opposed with an attribute check. The Sexual Prowess skill’s Tricks aspect renders it likewise unlike any other skill. D&D is nowadays a clinical and precise system, and this is not reflected by the uncertain/vague arousal durations and their ilk. To be an effective conversion, we must introduce some of the feel of 3rd edition to the rules sets, and make sure it snuggles in comfortably with the rest of the rules.
My personal feeling is that while Prowess cannot be a straight opposed check (what skill would be applicable against it? Concentration?), its current incarnation doesn’t feel right. Perhaps an optional Fort or Will save by the partner to negate its effects would be more relevant? As for the arousal durations and suchlike, clear definitions and a listing of situational modifiers would help out tremendously.

• Overpowering: There is a clear balance aspect that needs to be addressed within the rules - a high level carnal-style character can exert undue amounts of damage or gain a disproportionate amount of power over others, as Sexual Prowess and the spells that emulate its effects become nigh-upon-unstoppable at higher levels. There is a clear need to level out the field with regards spell effects and Prowess mechanics.
The switch to a Fort/Will save as mentioned above would balance characters of a similar level out (although, of course, an experienced lover still wields godlike power over mere peasants); paying careful attention to spells and their mechanics, however, is the only way of bringing them into line. We should also consider whether carnal spells should be available to mundane spellcasters (an oxymoron?), as a lot of fantasy (ahem) fiction portraying sexual spellcaster portray them as a different sect, a different style of magic. The is ultimately, however, down to you.

Well, my prattling continues. Feel free to give your comments on the three key points above, raise your own concerns, or shoot my suggestions down in flames.

Ever onward...


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## kolvar

Thank you DbS.
I think, that there should be a difference between overstimulated and sexually delirious, the one being, that you can not be satisfied, while the other is being satisfied while not being able to come down (or something along this line).

We did the conditions rather late, and when we did them, I rather felt, and wrote so, that we should base more of the system on them. Alas, I realy could not be bothered at that time to do much.

The sexual tricks where an attempt to include a kind of mini-feat as was done by one martial arts system, because no sane character, who goes adventuring, would give up some of its feats to do some nice tricks in bed. I allways feel, that they are a bit like the bard abilities.
In addition there was a line of thought, that some peasents should be able to be quite good at sex, while adventurers could be less good. this thought was never completely abandoned and that is probable one of the problems. 
You could actually say, that there are occations in the rules, where a skill-check is opposed by an ability-score-check: whenever one tries to use an untrained skill. but this is nitpicking at it's worst.

The overpowering: The spells where checked against other spells of the same level and should not be overpowering (although I sometimes got the feeling. But then I got back to the spells in the phb and found them as powerful).
A problem would be, that sometimes, the spells are based on older versions of the rules, or that conditions changed.

My two cents concerning the next moves:
1. clearly defining the conditions
2. deciding on a mechanism for arousal etc. (again)
3. the rest.

Question: do we have anything about true love and some benefits it could give on will and fortitude saves and especially charms?


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## Death By Surfeit

A quick suggestion vis-a-vis tircks and the Prowess skill:

Perhaps the Prowess skill could follow the same progression as the Perform skill - each new rank gained gives you another 'kind' of sexual activity to which you can apply your bonus. This drops the power level significantly and encourages a kind of specialisation in lower-level characters that I feel individualises proceedings.

The Arousal mechanic itself - should we consider using fixed DCs and an optional opposed save (in the same manner as the DbSC's hard focus rules)?

I'll post some ideas on the conditions and possible rules at a slightly later date, but until then I'd like to hear other peoples' ideas...


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## Sorn

I second the "Perform" variant. In addition, instead of the various stat based sex tricks, how about we handle it like the Intimidate skill, which can be used either with Str or Cha. Depending on the activity, a different stat can be used. For tantric sex, you use Wis, for crazy Kama Sutra positions, you use Dex,  etc.


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## VVrayven

Heya boys. I'm new so be nice. I've been following (lurking  at the other thread. I agree status conditions need revising. This is one of my suggestions. I'm not too good with 3e rules yet but this is what I've peiced together from the other guides and some stuff I think is a good idea. 

The Essentials

Note: All aroused penalties are cumulative from these status conditions.

Horny
Horny characters are mentally aroused and ready for sex. They suffer a -1 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for 10 minutes (2 minutes if in inappropriate conditions, including combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Successful spell casting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Spot or Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20 if male, DC 25 female). Characters can become Horny at will by their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail, in which case they must make a <prowess check> against themselves.

Aroused
Aroused characters are physically aroused and ready for sex. Males must be in this state in order to perform coitus. They suffer a -1 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for 10 minutes (2 minutes if in inappropriate conditions, including combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Successful spell casting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Spot or Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20 if male, DC 25 female). Characters can become Aroused at will by their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail, in which case they must make a <prowess check> against themselves. Any character that is receiving amorous attentions while Aroused, but is not Horny, must succeed a Will save (DC 15) every round or become Horny. 

Peaked
Peaked characters are in a heightened state of arousal, needing just one more push to go over the brink. They require a Concentration check (DC 20) to do anything other than make <prowess> checks. Spell casting adds spell levels to this DC. Peaked characters are automatically Aroused and Horny. This obvious condition lasts 1 minute before residing to Aroused.

Climaxed
Climaxed characters are overcome by orgasm, and are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round). <One point of subdual damage is taken for each Hit Dice the character possesses.> A Concentration check (DC 40) allows action as if Aroused. Spell casting is only an option with a Concentration check (DC 40 + spell level). After this period, male characters lose all arousal, and further checks against them for (10-Con mod) minutes suffer a -10 penalty. Female characters reside to Aroused.

The Optional

These conditions could be removed all together in favor of a certain sex trick, magic spell, or potion, though if all of these are going to be used, I recommend a neutral ground they can all build on, hence the status condition 


Lustful
Lustful characters are more than just horny and ready for sex; they crave it. A Lustful character is automatically both Horny and Aroused and will often initiate seduction attempts of their own toward any semi-suitable partner they can find. Characters of evil and chaotic alignments may attempt to rape these objects of lust if their attentions are rebuffed. If no partner is present, lustful characters will often masturbate themselves. Lustful characters must succeed a Will save every minute to avoid fulfilling themselves. This condition lasts 5 minutes (1 minute in inappropriate circumstances), and the detection DC is 5 for males, 10 for females. The Horny and Aroused conditions last after the Lustful duration has expired. Lustful is not a normal condition and can only be evoked by very skilled sex arts, magic, or substances.

Over-stimulated
The character has gone beyond Peaked and is in sexual agony as they are a hair’s breadth away from release, but climax is teasingly withheld from them. While in this state, they require a Concentration check (DC 20) to do anything other than make Prowess checks, and they incur penalties as if Aroused and Horny even if the check succeeds. Over-stimulated characters will masturbate if no appropriate mate can be found, but all checks to self-pleasure themselves while in this state suffer a –20 penalty. Spell casting adds spell levels to this DC.  An Over-stimulated character will agree to do almost anything to be allowed to achieve climax, and must make a Will save to resist agreeing to any such offers. The save’s DC equals 10 + the offering character’s Charisma modifiers. Finally, an Over-stimulated character must make a Will save every round (DC 18) or take 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage. This obvious condition lasts 1 minute and resides to Peaked. Should the Over-stimulated character’s Wisdom score fall below 3, they become Sexually Delirious.

Sexually Delirious
A character that reaches this stage is considered Helpless. The only action he or she is capable of is mindless sexual congress. The character will seek out the nearest partner (only radically differing sexual alignment issues will be rejected). If no partner is available, the character masturbates. Resisting this urge requires a Will save (DC 30) every round. Even if successful, all other actions require a Concentration check (DC 40). Spell casting is only an option with a Concentration check (DC 50 + spell level). A character in this state can be Climaxed, but always returns to this state. All subdual damage taken from orgasm is halved (round down, minimum 1 point) while Sexually Delirious. He or she is also suggestible as per the Hypnotize spell and loses all Will save bonuses until he or she gets 8 hours of complete rest. Sexually Delirious characters remain so until their Wisdom score rises to 3 (in which case they reside to Over-Stimulated), or they fall unconscious.

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may consider themselves Unwilling. Unwilling characters may add their rape bonus (a bonus ranging from 1 to 20+ depending on the campaign setting) to all Fortitude and Will saves and all Concentration checks to resist sexual effects and activities. A character cannot try to simulate another person or make Prowess checks while in this state. Over-Stimulated and Sexually Delirious characters cannot be Unwilling. If a character is Unwilling and is brought to one of these conditions, they loose the Unwilling status and begin sexual activity of their own volition. If a character is in one of these conditions and is subject to some extreme act that might bring them to (being brutally stabbed, extreme pain, etc…) they may make a Will save (DC 25) using their rape bonus and any damage taken that round as a bonus to reside to Peaked and become Unwilling.

Why so intricate? I believe if you are going to use stauts conditions, you should USE them. Otherwise axe them from the system as a whole, IMHO. 

I think the Prowess idea for sex tricks is a good idea. And I'm in favor of set DCs like the Hard Focus rules present. They might make you consult a chart, but you still have the option of an opposed roll and there is no math involved. I'll make a standard chart for the above if any wants (but I'm sure it will meet with harsh critics.) That's it for now. Hope I'm not butting in too much.


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## Sorn

You are definitely not butting in too much. The more people chime in, the better the finished product will be. I like your take on the states. One suggestion though: if you get a penalty to saves for [Arousal] type spells, how about increased caster level or save DC's on spells of that type you cast in that state? Sort of a "fueled by your own lust" kind of thing.


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## Death By Surfeit

Some very good contributions, Vrayven. It's nice to know that we're not taking up the mantle alone! I think that your descriptions of the status conditions are extensive, applicable to all conditions and as concise as they could be - in short, I'm willing to run with them as they are. I look forward to anything else you can come up with!

Sorn, I'm glad you agree with the Prowess check, and the varying ability modifier introduces a nice element - we'd include guidelines for when each can be applied, and so on. With regards the bonus to arousal spellcasting, I reckon that should lie as a feat to take advantage of your arousal - indeed, I had written one up for the DbS conversion v1.1, and will post it here, along with its prerequisite:

COITAL CASTING (General)
Your physical arousal only improves your spellcasting abilities.
Prerequisites: Coital Concentration, 8 or more ranks in Prowess, 12 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: You may add your Arousal penalty as an arousal bonus to the DCs of all your sensual spells.

COITAL CONCENTRATION (General)
You remain focused even whilst physically aroused.
Prerequisites: Sensual spellcaster, 4 or more ranks in Prowess, 6 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: With a successful Will save (DC 15), you may ignore all penalties from Arousal for one round, including Concentration checks. Using this, you may even act normally whilst Climaxed.
Normal: Levels of Arousal infer penalties on skill checks, attack rolls and saves. Spells require Concentration checks to cast successfully. Characters are considered helpless whilst Climaxed.

Sensual spellcasting can be replaced with spells of the Arousal descriptor if we aren't partitioning spellcasting.

This leaves only the core arousal mechanic to be decided upon. I favour the hardcore rules from part 5 of the DbS conversion as a framework, but then again I'm just plain biased.

Keep up the good work!


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## VVrayven

In Reply: "One suggestion though: if you get a penalty to saves for [Arousal] type spells, how about increased caster level or save DC's on spells of that type you cast in that state? Sort of a "fueled by your own lust" kind of thing."

I like DbS's take on it. 

In Reply: "Some very good contributions, Vrayven. It's nice to know that we're not taking up the mantle alone! I think that your descriptions of the status conditions are extensive, applicable to all conditions and as concise as they could be - in short, I'm willing to run with them as they are. I look forward to anything else you can come up with!"

:: Why thank you. I appreciate the compliment and the encouragement. And in that case...

As far as the Arousal System goes, I'm in favor of something that mimics the Hard Focus rules. Whilst this might rely on a chart, it remains one of the most versatile methods to use, and when you get down to it, the chart isn't ever really used that much. (And many skills have a DC chart of their own, they just don't explcitly lay it out in chart format).

I think the mutli-stat Prowess check is an excellent idea.  A couple of things that need to be addressed by the core mechanic for arousal:

1) Is masturbation simply a prowess check against the self? If so, shouldn't a character be able to try and please both himself and a partner (or mutliple partners?) in a round? If so, how? What mechanic and mutliple action resolution do we use?

2) How is prowess opposed? By an opposing skill check (ala two tantric masters trying to out do each other with intricate manipulations of the hands and such) or do we use a Fortitude or Will save (such as holding off the sensations metally or phyiscially).

3) We need modifiers and sygnery bonuses. What does profession (prostitute) do? Are their any other alternatives? Can an average person learn to be good at sex without that many levels? Can monseters be modifered (such as the succubus and others) to have this new skill and still keep some sembelance of balance?

All that being said, I have the DC chart for the status conditions I presented and one more that I think could be a good option that I forgot to tag on in my first post.

the other optional condition:

Ecstasy
Not all orgasms are equal and these are the best of them. A character in Ecstasy orgasms in a powerful climax or several times repeatedly. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round). Two points of subdual damage are taken for each Hit Dice the character possesses. A Concentration check (DC 50) allows action as if Aroused. Spellcasting is only an option with a Concentration check (DC 50 + spell level). They must also succeed a Will save (DC 22) or take 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage. After this period, male characters lose all arousal, and further checks against them for (10-Con mod) minutes suffer a -15 penalty. Female characters reside to Aroused.

The DC Chart:

Hr: Horny,  Ar: Aroused,  Pk: Peaked,  Cx: Climaxed,  Scores are for Male/Female

Current Condition:        --    Ar     Pk     Cx
Target Condition: Ar    13/16   7/9    4/5    --
                  Pk    26/32  14/18   8/10   --
                  Cx    52/64  28/36  15/20  20/25

Horny: If your target (partner) is Horny, all DC's are reduced by 1.

These states can only be induced via a tantric art (sex trick).

Lustful: The DC is equal to the Peak DC plus 10.

Esctasy: The DC is equal to the Climax DC plus 5. They act on the chart as though Climaxed.

Over-Stimulated: The DC is equal to the Climax DC plus 10. They act on the chart as though Peaked.

Sexually-Delerious: The DC is equal to the Climax DC plus 20. They act on the chart as though Peaked.

On Addition to the Sexually Delerious Condition:

Sexually Delirious
A character that reaches this stage is considered Helpless. IF THE CHARACTER HAS A TEMPORARY WISDOM SCORE OF 3 OR HIGHER, IT IS INSTANTLY REDUCED TO 2 WHILE THIS CONDITION PERSISTS. The only action he or she is capable of is mindless sexual congress. The character will seek out the nearest partner (only radically differing sexual alignment issues will be rejected). If no partner is available, the character masturbates. Resisting this urge requires a Will save (DC 30) every round. Even if successful, all other actions require a Concentration check (DC 40). Spell casting is only an option with a Concentration check (DC 50 + spell level). A character in this state can be Climaxed, but always returns to this state. All subdual damage taken from orgasm is halved (round down, minimum 1 point) while Sexually Delirious. He or she is also suggestible as per the Hypnotize spell and loses all Will save bonuses until he or she gets 8 hours of complete rest. Sexually Delirious characters remain so until their Wisdom score rises to 3 (in which case they reside to Over-Stimulated), or they fall unconscious.

And just posting with some extrenious stuff:

From Shale's and the DbS Rules:
"Size Matters:"

Women can receive an object that is their own category without difficulty. (anything smaller is of course alright... It might not be pleasurable though) Larger that one category however will bring pain and eventually damage. Women also use the chart presented in the UCK, although theirs is a measure of basic flexibility and size. The scale is not relative to Orafice Stuffing. If a medium-sized woman can handle an object of large-size (via the Sex Trick) and she recieves a huge object, she is two steps surpassing her self, not one. At the DM's option a lesser-orafice recieving a greater-orafice of the same size can be considered a one category difference.

Three or more sizes smaller: Fruitless. No appreciable sensation of any kind.

Two sizes smaller: Pathetic. Both Prowess checks incur a -8 size penalty. Where penetration is just one element of intercourse (eg. open-ended Prowess check), this penalty is reduced to -4.

One size smaller: Disappointing. Both Prowess checks incur a -4 size penalty. Where penetration is just one element of intercourse (eg. open-ended Prowess check), this penalty is reduced to -2.

Half a size smaller: Weak. Both Prowess checks incur a -2 size penalty. Where penetration is just one element of intercourse (eg. open-ended Prowess check), this penalty is reduced to -1.

Same size: No special rules.

1 steps larger: Causes 1 point of subdual damage and pain each round of sex. In addition, the female recives a +5 bonus to her arousal checks due to the pain.

2 steps larger: Causes 1 point of lethal damage and pain each round of sex. In addition, the female recives a +10 bonus to her arousal checks due to the pain. The owner of the organ also sustains 1 point of subdual damage a round due to the tightness and constiction.

3 steps larger: Causes 5 points of lethal damage and pain each round. In addition the reciever must make a Fortitude save each round with a cumulative -1 penalty per round or fall unconsious from the pain (this lasts until the abuse stops and 2d6 minutes thereafter). 

4 steps larger: Causes 10 points of lethal damage and pain each round. In addition the reciever must make a Fortitude save each round with a cumulative -2 penalty per round or die from the internal injurgies. Females do not make arousal checks while being violated in this fashion. (If the DM is particularly sadistic, the checks should be at a minimum of +15). The owner of the organ also sustains 5 points of subdual damage a round due to the tightness and constiction.

5 steps larger or more: Kills the reciever instantly. Some DMs might allow the character a Fortitude save with a cumilative penalty to prevent the object from fully entering their orafice."


My only other comment at this point... Will the Status conditions match up with the spells? I'd be more than willing to lend a hand in helping them match up. Where is the current list of spells, by the way? If you want a hand of course.


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## Death By Surfeit

(Sorry for the late post. Personal lives are such an encumbrance...)

Again Vrayven, thankyou for your input. Fresh input is _always_ appreciated, and that applies to the countless lurkers watching this thread. You know who you are!

With regards your comments:

1) Masturbation and multiple partners: I think that masturbation is essentially an Arousal check performed on oneself, yes. It seems appropriate to allow only one Prowess check in a round, unless you're willing to accept a cumulative or staggering penalty... the DbS allowed people to make a Knowledge (Sexuality) check to negate the penalty (harder DCs when acting on more than two at once?), alongside making judgements about a person's sexual nature. Would we adopt this stance? It seems sensible to boost your performance and divine a person's sexual nature by mundane means as well as magical, and I'm for the supplication of the skill to the Guide.

2) Hmm. The DbS conversion allowed an optional Fortitude save to anyone who wished to negate an Arousal check upon them - delaying and so forth. The DC was variable - the check result of the Prowess check. Thus someone who wished to stimulate an uncooperative partner had to not only face down the Arousal DC but also a resisted check each time. Is this an appropriate approach?

3) I'm unsure about Profession (prostitute) - perhaps it ran the administrative side of things - getting a pimp, knowig the ins and outs (so to speak) of the business, faking it and so on. This would avoid any conflict with Prowess, and bring it into line with other Profession skills. Perhaps we should just eschew it altogether?

With regards synergy bonuses, could we do it in an open-ended manner? As with the variable key attribute, should you have 5 or more ranks you think is appropriate for the situation in hand (Use Rope for bondage, Ride for more athletic sex, etc), you get a +2 synergy modifer (non-cumulative)? Again speaking as the creator of the DbS, we had them as a 'kink' modifier that only worked if your partner shared the kink - otherwise you took very heavy penalties (-10 penalty?). Perhaps this is the right way of going about it?

Can a low-level person get very good at sexual activity without acquiring too many levels? Well, can he get very good at handling animals, jumping etc etc? Within the constraints of the system, yes (eg maxing out ranks, skill focus feats and so on). However to break this rule would go outside the D&D convention.

The Ecstatic condition - a good idea, and a nice trump card for higher-level sexual characters to pull. Maybe it should be integrated into the current progression on the chart, making it double the DC for Climaxed at each level?

I think, though, that the chart is designed to show physical arousal, and thus Horny, Lustful or Sexually Delirious should not be attainable by these ends.

The modified Size Matters rules could likewise do with a little tweaking here and there. You didn't include a 'half a size category larger' level, which represents a phallus 337.5% its original size - at the very least, a whole size category larger should be doing physical damage no matter what. In proportion, the human penis is a Fine-sized object - at three size categories larger alone, you are describing a phallus the size of a child brought upon a human; an extraordinary feat in all but the least feasible (and stomachable) hentai movies. It may be almost shamelessly plagiarised, but I'd recommend the below:

* * *

Three or more sizes smaller: Fruitless. No appreciable sensation of any kind.
Two sizes smaller: Pathetic. Both Prowess checks incur a -8 size penalty. Where penetration is just one element of intercourse (eg. open-ended Prowess check), this penalty is reduced to -4.
One size smaller: Disappointing. Both Prowess checks incur a -4 size penalty. Where penetration is just one element of intercourse (eg. open-ended Prowess check), this penalty is reduced to -2.
Half a size smaller: Weak. Both Prowess checks incur a -2 size penalty. Where penetration is just one element of intercourse (eg. open-ended Prowess check), this penalty is reduced to -1.
Same size: No special rules.
Half a size larger: Chunky. Both Prowess checks gain a +2 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage each turn, unless they can succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10): work affairs out hard-focus in case of incurring unconsciousness (!).
One size larger: Dangerous. Both Prowess checks gain a +4 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 10 + partner’s HD) reduces this to just one point per turn. Apply hard-focus rules, as unconsciousness is likely.
Two sizes larger: Lethal. Both Prowess checks gain a +8 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of actual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 15 + partner’s HD) reduces this to subdual damage. Use hard focus rules: affairs are likely to be very brief.
Three or more sizes larger: All pain, no gain. Concerted attempts simply incur damage as if two sizes larger: see above.

Where the phallus is a whole size category larger or more, the owner of said organ receives damage one degree less than the recipient due to tightness and constriction (an owner of a phallus two size categories larger would take damage as if he was receiving one one size category larger, for example).

Note: All subdual or actual damage sustained in a round is deducted as a pain modifier from the Prowess check, unless the recipient is a masochist, in which case it is added as a bonus instead. This makes larger-size phalluses less useful in many circumstances.

* * *

As a final point, the desire to match the mechanics with the spells was a crucial role in the editing. Your offer of help is greatly appreciated, but we'd probably do best to figure out the mechanics beforehand.

Thanks everyone, keep them ideas coming,

DbS


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## VVrayven

> (Sorry for the late post. Personal lives are such an encumbrance...)




I can relate and understand completly.  

Point 1) I'm in agreement with Masturbation rules. I think there should be a way to try to partners at once. At this point... I'm thinking all rolls should be penalized by a single modifier (say -4 to -8 range for 2 partners?)

This brings up another point. The whole "sex system" is abstracted much the same way that combat is, right? We can't assume intercourse (or any other act for that matter) WILL be used in any given "round" of sex. The DCs on the chart assume the act of "taking 20" with normal people. This results with about 6-8 minutes of sex (which in my experience with an 'average' guy can be about right). But the consequence of the abstraction is that it becomes really difficult assinging modifiers to specific acts...

Point 2) I agree with your idea. I think a Fortitude (as opposed to will) is the appropriate way to go. Combined with the "Unwilling" status condition, I think it works even better. Perhaps a feat can allow you to use your Will save?

Point 3) Again. I like your solution. 

With regard to syngery bonuses... Mmmm... Perhaps you offer a +2 bonus for every relatvant "kink" that the two share. You'd have to define the acts being done in the round though. This is where the abstraction hurts us... But, then again, we want to keep everything simple. I think these should stack, but I also think a penalty should be used for unsure partners.



> I think, though, that the chart is designed to show physical arousal, and thus Horny, Lustful or Sexually Delirious should not be attainable by these ends.




Very well. I do agree. I think perhaps the "mental" status conditions should be able to be evoked with a feat maybe? As such, how about the following Chart?

--------------Target-->---Ars-------Peak-----Clxm---------Escty
Current
None---------------------13/16----26/32----52/64------104/128
Ars-------------------------7/9------14/18----28/36--------56/72
Peak-----------------------4/5------8/10-----15/20--------30/40
Clxm--------------------------------------------30/25--------40/35
Escty-------------------------------------------30/25--------50/45

What do you think?



> The modified Size Matters rules could likewise do with a little tweaking here and there.




I agree. I was just throwing the idea up for discussion. I agree with your suggestions for the chart and think that they are all good ideas.



> As a final point, the desire to match the mechanics with the spells was a crucial role in the editing. Your offer of help is greatly appreciated, but we'd probably do best to figure out the mechanics beforehand.




I agree. So let's crack that Core Mechanic! I'm for the 'Hard Focus' take and for the variable ability score use. We need a good setup to allow for a bunch of modifiers and a way to deal with the abstraction problem. 




> Thanks everyone, keep them ideas coming,




As I get them. You will hear them.


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## kolvar

Wow, much input!
Overall I liket the conditions, though arousal and horny are not that much different.
Taking subdual damage, when climaxing seemed a good idea at first to me, but the subdual damage goes away far to slowly. three orgasms and most characters will be out cold. for quite some time.

There once was in one posting in this board, a profession (prostitute), giving, as far as I remember, a synergy bonus to bluff (seduction) and sense motive. Rope Use etc. should not be synergized by this skill, because they are specialities of different kinds of prostitute (e.g. profession (dominatrix)), which gives a whole new list of old feats with new uses (professions: prostitute, dominatrix, pimp, courtesan (synergy to knowledge (courtly lore), inuendo), escort etc.)

doing sexual prowess like perform and intimidate seems rather good.

One danger, that creeps in at the moment, is, that we "could use a feat" for some speciality or the other. Characters do not have that many feats and if they want to take a feat regarding sex, they will probably not take a feat changing the save from fortitude to will or something similar. It is nice to have lots of feats in the guide, but we can leave the ones out, no one will take anyway. Maby someting like that could be done as a sex-trick.

After following all this for more than a year, I would recommend, that we decide rather quickly on the basics now. The conditions need but a little tweaking, thanks to VVrayven. When they are done, the basic system has to be decided on. Afterwards the sex-tricks. Spells and PrCs afterwards.
PLEASE!


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## Sorn

Kolvar: AMEN! Sounds like a plan to me. Let's get this baby done!


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## VVrayven

Thanks, Kolvar.



> though arousal and horny are not that much different.




I have thought this as well. I just thought the two needed to be seperate and stackable. Any fixes, anyone?



> Taking subdual damage, when climaxing seemed a good idea at first to me, but the subdual damage goes away far to slowly. three orgasms and most characters will be out cold. for quite some time.




I too have seen this as an issue. The same goes for subdual magic casting systems... Perhaps we should cap it at a specific ammount? Or... we could introduce a sexual fatigue system? I have an old one written up that I was using prior to this (care to see?). Also, I'd like to point out that I believe whatever system we use it should be based on a variable (perhaps CON, perhaps not). I know men that can go several times in an hour, and I know women that can go up to twenty+ in half that time. Then again, I know women that can only go once and then that's it. It should also be pointed out that the conditions were an abstraction. Climax doesn't mean 1 orgasm. It means 6 seconds of climax, which might mean different things to different people.



> One danger, that creeps in at the moment, is, that we "could use a feat" for some speciality or the other. Characters do not have that many feats and if they want to take a feat regarding sex, they will probably not take a feat changing the save from fortitude to will or something similar. It is nice to have lots of feats in the guide, but we can leave the ones out, no one will take anyway. Maby someting like that could be done as a sex-trick.




Point taken. And I agree. But, we can mush several together. Maybe a big feat allows several sex tricks to be taken. Perhaps class abilites can also grant these. 



> After following all this for more than a year, I would recommend, that we decide rather quickly on the basics now.




Yea! :claps: 

By the way, have we completly removed the sexual advantages and disadvantages, phobias, kinks, and such? If so, how do we incorporate them when needed?


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## VVrayven

Hmmm... Maybe this one isn't so good... I'll toss it out there anyway just to see what you guys think:

Basics: Every round spent in the climax condition exacts a toll on the character. Each round spent in Ectasy counts as two rounds spent in climax. A freash character can take a number of "climaxes" equal to their CON before falling to Fatigued status. After that, they can take a number of "climaxes" equal to their CON before falling to Exhausted status. Each additional "climax" recieved while the character is Exhausted results in subdual damage equal to the character's hit dice.

This would allow for a some good marathon sessions and will allow characters of higher level and CON to last longer. Existing fatigue and exhaustion would also be covered under this system. (i.e. a person that has hiked all day and is already fatigued will already be tired when being intimate that night). We could also add sex tricks, feats, advantages, disadvantages, etc... for some or all of the following:

--Make a climax cause subdual damage regardless of current fatigue.

--Suffer additional climax in addition to CON before going fatigued.

--Use Half Con modifer (or non at all) before fatigue.

--Allow a save before fatigue?

--Recover from the fatigue (sexual only) faster than the normal 8 hours.

So what do you think? Better? Worse? Just another little piece brought to you by Wrayven.


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## kolvar

Another nice idea. though I would probably reduce the times to one climax plus one per con-bonus (or 1/4 of con) . Double that for endurance-feat, or add some per sexual prowess.

Regarding the horny-arousal issue: stackable is OK, maybe give horny characters a -2 on saves vs. carnal magic or something similar.

(by the way, I found the penis-size rather amusing.  Cries for a sex-trick (swallow large d...))


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## VVrayven

> I would probably reduce the times to one climax plus one per con-bonus (or 1/4 of con) . Double that for endurance-feat, or add some per sexual prowess.




Good ideas. And more balanced too.  I'll start a write up and a reworking of the two status conditions so that we'll have something a little more solid to look at.



> Regarding the horny-arousal issue: stackable is OK, maybe give horny characters a -2 on saves vs. carnal magic or something similar.




Maybe I'll try and rewrite that one too. 



> Cries for a sex-trick (swallow large d...)




 Well I suppose if we must... 

So... ::looks around:: Have we decided on a variant of the Hard Focus rules?


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## Death By Surfeit

Whoa! I'm surprised and somewhat flattered by the amount of progress this thread is making. Having been given a spare moment, I'll see if I can correlate all the rules into one (hopefully not too) vast expanse...

But to address the conceptual issues first:

1) Aroused, Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic correlate to physical arousal of mounting significance - they represent the physiological side of things, and can be achieved by Prowess checks. Horny, Lustful and Delirious roughly correspond to the three earlier conditions above, but are mental in nature - they cannot be achieved by Prowess checks, and represent a character's mindset. When devising the status conditions, the mental conditions should give less severe penalties, but also behavioural advice - a Horny character would seek to seduce someone if in an appropriate condition, a Lustful would seek to do so anyway, a Delirious one is single-mindedly set on sexual satisfaction, and will pursue it regardless of consequences.

Perhaps the mental conditions should indeed correlate to the penalties of the first three, retaining the Concentration checks for spellcasting and the susceptibility to Arousal spells, but without the general penalty. The concentration check to do anything still applies to Over-Stimulated, but represents trying to do anything non-sexual instead.

And that is the difference between the two sets.

2) The climax-capping: I like the ideas being thrown back and forth, but I’m afraid that we cannot possibly accommodate for all the eccentricities of human beings, and some generalisation is in order. My take on it is as follows:

A male character upon becoming Climaxed loses all arousal and is considered Fatigued for 10 minutes. After undergoing Climax a number of times equal to his Con modifier (or one, whichever is higher), else becoming Ecstatic, said male is considered Exhausted instead.

A female character upon becoming Climaxed recedes to Aroused status. After undergoing a number of Climaxes equal to her Con modifier (or one, whichever is higher) she is considered Fatigued. After a further number of Climaxes equal to her Con before becoming Exhausted. Becoming Ecstatic renders a ‘fresh’ female character Fatigued, and a Fatigued one Exhausted.

In either case, climbing to Climax whilst Exhausted inflicts subdual damage equal to a person’s HD. Becoming Ecstatic whilst Exhausted results in subdual damage equal to a persons HD or sufficient damage to render them unconscious, whichever is higher.

All conditions intermingle with those already in play, as per Vrayven’s contributions. Creatures immune to fatigue and exhaustion are likewise immune to sexual fatigue and exhaustion.

3) The ‘taking 20’ generalisation: mathematical calculation in this case indeed places the duration of conventional intercourse at exactly 6 minutes. A little disappointing, I know, but this represents a ‘quickie’ where neither partner is attempting to prolong the process by making saves, they’re in ideal circumstances etc.

We may have to keep a generalised, Perform-esque mechanic to judge not just the achievements of a performance, but the quality of said performance. Is this the case?

4) Phobias, philias etc. can be analysed separately – I think we need the core rules down first, after which the rest should be pretty modular in fashion. There is a little precedent on the matter (see ‘Kinks’ in Ch.5 of the DbS conversion for details), but that was under a jovial tone and needs shaping up a little. I reckon we can come back afterward, as I see our route to completion as follows:

* Core Mechanics
* Circumstantial modifiers, variable attributes, skill synergy, kinks and suchlike
* Classes, skills and feats drafting
* Spell modification
* Finalisation of the above
* Much rejoicing

* * *

And that’s my chunk of time expended already. I’ll put together a full write-up next time I have the opportunity, but some feedback on the above can’t help in the meantime. Besides, the issues need to be addressed. My infinite thanks to you all for your incisive criticisms, constructive suggestions and undying support – I couldn’t hope to be working with better people.

Tch. Better call things a wrap before I start making a fool of myself.


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## kolvar

Sounds good so far.
The endurance skill and some high values in sexual prowess should reduce the possibility of becoming fatigued and exhausted, but that is something for the skill and feat section.


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## Death By Surfeit

NB: We should probably make an addendum to the Fatigued and Exhausted conditions that would vault the DCs for Arousal. Any ideas?


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## VVrayven

Revised Conditions:

The Physiological Conditions

(Physical Conditions no longer stack... I.E. A character is either Aroused, Peaked, Climaxed, or in Ecstasy, not any combination thereof.)

Aroused
Aroused characters are physically aroused and ready for sex. Males become erect and females become lubricated. Males must be in this state in order to perform coitus. Aroused characters suffer a -1 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for 10 minutes (2 minutes if in inappropriate conditions, including combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor and the like. Successful spell casting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Spot or Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20 if male, DC 25 female). Characters can become Aroused at will by their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail, in which case they must make a Prowess check as normal against themselves (using Hard Focus rules). Any character that is receiving amorous attentions while Aroused, but is not Horny, must succeed a Will save (DC 15) every round or become Horny as well.

Peaked
Peaked characters are in a heightened state of arousal, needing just one more push to go over the brink to orgasm. They require a Concentration check (DC 20) to do anything other than make Prowess checks (spell casting requires a DC 20 + spell level). Even if they can act, all non-sensual actions suffer a -5 arousal penalty. This obvious condition lasts 1 minute before residing to Aroused. Any character that is receiving amorous attentions while Peaked, but is not Horny, must succeed a Will save (DC 25) every round or become Horny as well.

Climaxed
Climaxed characters are overcome by orgasm (either one large one or a series of lesser ones), and are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round). By making a Concentration check (DC 40), the character is not considered Helpess and can take action as if slowed (spell casting requires a DC 40 + spell level). Even if they can act, all non-sensual actions suffer a -7 arousal penalty. Climax lasts one round unless Prowess checks (or some other force) causes the character the Climax again. After this condition ends, male characters lose all arousal, and further Prowess checks against them for (10-Con modifier) minutes suffer a -10 penalty. Female characters reside to Aroused. All Characters that are in Climax suffer Sexual Fatigue.

Ecstasy
Not all orgasms are equal and these are the best of them. A character in Ecstasy orgasms in a powerful climax or several times repeatedly. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round). By making a Concentration check (DC 50), the character is not considered Helpess and can take action as if slowed (spell casting requires a DC 50 + spell level). Even if they can act, all non-sensual actions suffer a -10 arousal penalty. Ecstasy lasts one round unless Prowess checks (or some other force) causes the character the Climax again. After this condition ends, male characters lose all arousal, and further Prowess checks against them for (10-Con modifier) minutes suffer a -10 penalty. Female characters reside to Aroused. Characters in Ecstasy must succeed a Will save (DC 22) every round or take 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage. All Characters in Estasy suffer Sexual Fatigue.

Note: The effects of coming down from orgasm in Climax and Ecstasy only take place after both conditions have ended. It is possible to switch from Climax to Esctasy several times over again or remain in either for an extended period of time. Any character that spends more than one round in Climax or Ecstasy (i.e. is forced to orgasm again) is instantly Horny as well.

The Mental Conditions

(Mental Conditions no longer stack... I.E. A character is either Horny, Lustful or Sexually Delirious, not any combination thereof. All arousal penalies stack with those from the Physiological conditions.)

Horny
Horny characters are mentally aroused and ready for sex. They suffer a -1 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for 20 minutes (4 minutes if in inappropriate conditions, including combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor and the like. A successful Spot or Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20 if male, DC 25 female). Characters can become Horny at will by their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail, in which case they must make a ???? check against themselves.

Lustful
Lustful characters are more than just horny and ready for sex; they crave it. They suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor and the like. A Lustful character is automatically Aroused and will often initiate seduction attempts of their own toward any semi-suitable partner they can find. Characters of evil and chaotic alignments may attempt to rape these objects of lust if their attentions are rebuffed. If no partner is present, lustful characters will often masturbate themselves. Lustful characters must succeed a Will save (DC 16) every minute to avoid fulfilling themselves. This condition lasts 2d10 minutes (or however long the invoking agent lasts, whichever is longer), and the detection DC is 5 for males, 10 for females. Lustful is not a normal condition and can only be invoked by very skilled sex arts, magic, or substances. Lustful resides to Aroused and Horny.

Sexually Delirious
When a character's Wisdom drops below 3 during sexual congress, they become Sexually Delirious. This is not normally a natural state, and can only be invoked by very skilled sex arts, magic, substances, or amazing sex. A character that reaches this stage is considered Helpless. The only action he or she is capable of is mindless sexual congress. The character will seek out the nearest partner (only radically differing sexual alignment issues will be rejected). If no partner is available, the character masturbates. Resisting this urge requires a Will save (DC 30) every round. Even if successful, all other actions require a Concentration check (DC 40). Spell casting is only an option with a Concentration check (DC 50 + spell level). Characters that are brought to orgasm in this state (i.e. Climaxed or Ectasy) do not loose arousal, and returned to peaked conditions instead. All subdual damage taken from orgasm is halved (round down, minimum 1 point) while Sexually Delirious. He or she is also suggestible as per the Hypnotize spell and loses all Will save bonuses until he or she gets 8 hours of complete rest. Sexually Delirious characters remain so until their Wisdom score rises to 3 (in which case they reside to Over-Stimulated, Lustful, and Peaked), or they fall unconscious.

Other Conditions

Over-stimulated
The character has gone beyond Peaked and is in sexual agony as they are a hair’s breadth away from release, but climax is teasingly withheld from them. While in this state, they require a Concentration check (DC 20) to do anything other than make Prowess checks, and they incur penalties as if Peaked and Horny even if the check succeeds. Over-stimulated characters will masturbate if no appropriate mate can be found, but all checks to self-pleasure themselves while in this state suffer a -20 penalty. Spell casting adds spell levels to this DC. An Over-stimulated character will agree to do almost anything to be allowed to achieve climax, and must make a Will save to resist agreeing to any such offers. The save’s DC equals 10 + the offering character’s Charisma modifiers. Finally, an Over-stimulated character must make a Will save every round (DC 18) or take 1 point of temporary Wisdom damage. This obvious condition lasts 1 minute and resides to Peaked and Horny. Should the Over-stimulated character’s Wisdom score fall below 3, they become Sexually Delirious.

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may consider themselves Unwilling. Unwilling characters may add their rape bonus (a bonus ranging from 1 to 20+ depending on the campaign setting) to all Fortitude and Will saves and all Concentration checks to resist sexual effects and activities. A character cannot try to stimulate another person or make Prowess checks while in this state. Over-Stimulated and Sexually Delirious characters cannot be Unwilling. If a character is Unwilling and is brought to one of these conditions, they loose the Unwilling status and begin sexual activity of their own volition. If a character is in one of these conditions and is subject to some extreme act that might bring them to (being brutally stabbed, extreme pain, etc...) they may make a Will save (DC 25) using their rape bonus and any damage taken that round as a bonus to reside to Peaked and become Unwilling.

More stuff forecoming soon. Hopefully within the next hour or so.


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## VVrayven

Core Mechanic (Hard Focus)

In order to stimulate a partner successfully, a charactrer must make a prowess check. The DC for this check varries by the current condition of the partner. If the character fails to meet the required DC, they may elect to status the status of their partner to any DC they did succeed. A partner may resist the attentions of the character by rolling a Fortitude save. The partner may then subtract any of this ammount from the character's Prowess check.
DCs are listed with two values, Male (left), and Female (right).

Desired Condition ->->---None-----Aroused-----Peaked-----Climaxed-----Esctasy

Partner's
 Current 
Condition
None------------------->13/>16-----13/16-------26/32-------52/64------104/128
Aroused------------------>7/>9-------7/9-------14/18-------28/36--------56/72
Peaked------------------->4/>5-------4/5--------8/10-------15/20--------30/40
Climaxed---------------->30/()----()/>25-------------------30/25--------40/35
Esctasy----------------->30/()----()/>25-------------------30/25--------50/45

DC Modifiers
Either reduce the DCs by this number or provide a bonus to the Prowess check for:

Partner is Horny:             +1 
Parnter is Lustful:           +2
Partner is Sexualy Delirious: +4
Partner is Over-stimulated:   +5
Partner is Fatigued:          -2
Partner is Exhausted:         -4


Sexual Fatigue

Every round the character is in climax, he or she suffers some degree of sexual fatigue. Characters in Ecstasy suffer sexual fatigue as if they have had two rounds of the Climaxed status condtion.

Males: Males are considered Fatigued after a single orgasm. If they continue sexual activity, they may withstand a number of rounds of climax equal to their Constitution modifer (or 1 whichever is higher) before becoming Exhausted.

Females: Females may withstand their Constitution modifer (or 1 whichever is higher) number of rounds in climax before becoming Fatigued. If the continue sexual activity, they may withstand a number of rounds of climax equal to their Constitution before becoming Exhausted.

Climbing to Climax whilst Exhausted inflicts subdual damage equal to a person’s HD (regardless of gender or sex). Becoming Ecstatic whilst Exhausted results in subdual damage equal to a persons HD or sufficient damage to render them unconscious, whichever is higher.


Just a note. We should stick to the SRD rules concerning Fatigue and Exhaustion and their recovery times. (i.e. no 10 min Fatigue for Males.)

Fatigued
Characters who are fatigued cannot run or charge and suffer an effective penalty of -2 to Strength and Dexterity. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued.

Exhausted
Characters who are exhausted move at half normal speed and suffer an effective penalty of -6 to Strength and Dexterity. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue. After 1 hour of complete rest, exhausted characters become fatigued.


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## VVrayven

Hmmm... On second thought I don't like that Core Mechanic... The reduction of a Fort save could make an encounter last forever with target DCs in the 15s... So...

Core Mechanic (Hard Focus)

In order to stimulate a partner successfully, a charactrer must make a prowess check. The DC for this check varries by the current condition of the partner. If the character fails to meet the required DC, they may elect to status the status of their partner to any DC they did succeed. A partner may resist the attentions of the character by rolling a Fortitude save against the character's Prowess check. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal or climax is gained.

As for the "Perform-esque mechanic", we can stick with the current version, just modify it a little:

The "Simple" and "Quick" rules:
For two consenting partners simple have each roll a Prowess check against the other with all relevant modifiers. If one person is particularly bad (i.e. rolls very low) and their partner has at least 3 ranks in Prowess, their partner can transfer up to 50% of their check to their partner's check (after all, really good lovers can often compenstate). Check the first column on the Gratification table for the result of the evening.

The Hard-Focus Rules:
Extremely good love making is assumed whenever a lover is able to succeed very high PC prowess rolls. Using the highest DC a partner hit that resulted in an orgasm, find the number by which they exceeded the target DC. Compare this number to the second column of the Gradification table for the results of the session.

(Variant) Orgasmic Total:
During a love making session, each lover accumulates a gratification value as they are pleasured. Every orgasm gives one point plus one point by every five in which the target DC is exceeded (round down). Example: a female in peaked needs a DC 20 to climax, if the roll is a 32 (wow!) the orgasm gives 3 gratification points. The total of these points can be checked on the gratification table.

Gratification Table:

Simple------------Hard-Focus-----------Variant--------Result
5 or less---------less than 0----------less than 1----Disappointing
10----------------0--------------------1--------------Routine
15----------------5--------------------5--------------Enjoyable
20----------------10-------------------10-------------Great
25----------------15-------------------15-------------Memorable
30----------------20-------------------20-------------Extraordinary
40----------------25-------------------25-------------Heavenly
50----------------30-------------------30-------------Rapture


Disappointing Experience – You failed to satisfy your partner, and generally left him or her wanting more. You suffer a –1 penalty to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 1d4 days.

Routine Experience - You both achieved satisfaction, and that is always good, as we all know. But it was nothing remarkable.

Enjoyable Experience - You exhibited a bit more flair then the standard lover and may have even showed your partner a new trick. +1 impression bonus to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 1d4 days

Great Experience - Multiple orgasms were definitely involved in the evening, and you have definitely made an impression on all but the most jaded of lovers. With time, you may develop a local reputation as a lover of some skill. +2 impression bonus to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 1d4 days

Memorable Experience – Even the most jaded of lovers would be impressed by the sexual skill you have demonstrated. With time, you may develop a regional reputation as a lover of noticeable skill. +3 impression bonus to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 2d4 days.

Extraordinary Experience - You just may be the best lover your partner has ever had--you certainly gave them one of the greatest experiences of their lives! With time, you may develop a national reputation as a lover of great skill. +4 impression bonus to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 1d4 weeks. In addition, your lover has a 50% chance to be charmed (as the spell) for 2d6 days.

Heavenly Experience - Things were done in the bedroom that are the stuff of legends and ribald pornographic etchings! The gods and goddesses of lust would be proud of you. In time, you may even draw their notice and be whisked away to visit them! +5 bonus to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 1d4 weeks. In addition, your lover will be charmed (as the spell) for 2d8 days.

Rapture - You utterly consumed your partner and touched their very soul with your pleasurous abilities. The gods and goddesses of lust WILL take notice of you. Your lover will be charmed (as the spell) for at least 1d8 weeks and has a chance of being lovesick (25%), a sex slave (25%), or aroused by you (50%) for the next 1d4 days.

Okay. Promise I'm done for a while... ::heavy breathing:: Let me know what you think, boys.


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## Anabstercorian

*Wow!*

Wrayven, you are pretty darn |_33x.  This is an excellent, straightforward core mechanic that seems like it should do a good job of any sort of sexual encounter the PC's might reasonably encounter.

I do think, however, that the numbers might need a little tweaking...  The effects of a Rapture experience, for example, are too potent for a DC 50 check.  That's an epic level result, on par with rendering a Friendly target a fanatical follower (which is a Diplomacy check DC 70, if I recall.)

I'd increase Memorable to DC 30, Extraordinary and Heavenly to DC 40 and 50 respectively, and Rapture to DC 70.  Again, that's only assuming we leave in the ability to charm and/or sex-slave-ify people using this skill (and I think we should.)


----------



## Death By Surfeit

What a marvellous flurry of activity Vrayven. The rules there seem sufficiently comprehensive and as concise as possible - my next post will be one of horrific proportions, as I wrestle everything into a clear format which we can pick over for final editing. Other comments are more than welcome in the meantime, as I will not be able to compile until late Sunday at the least (again the wonders and encumbrances of personal lives).


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## VVrayven

> Wrayven, you are pretty darn |_33x. This is an excellent...
> 
> What a marvellous flurry of activity Vrayven.




:: Why thank you.    ...(piszt! What does |_33x mean?)



> I do think, however, that the numbers might need a little tweaking...




That sir, is an excellent idea. And I like the cut of your numbers better than mine. 



> that's only assuming we leave in the ability to charm and/or sex-slave-ify people using this skill (and I think we should.)




Of course.  I know I've had some... (oh well OT...)



> Other comments are more than welcome in the meantime, as I will not be able to compile until late Sunday at the least (again the wonders and encumbrances of personal lives).




Just let us know if we can help (hope everything works out for you ) And if I can think up any other little wonders I'll let you know.


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## kolvar

Wow! (I am close to speechless about the way it is going at the moment.  As mentioned somewhere else, I am not into the core mechanics and if Anabs says, something is realy good, I am all behind him.
But what the h. does |_33x mean? (I am not from here, you know))


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## Anabstercorian

*It's geek-speak.*

|_ = L
3 = E
3 = E
x = t

Leet, which is an abreviated form of Elite.

Basically, it means exceptionally good and/or skilled.


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## VVrayven

Anabstercorian: Awww... Does that mean I wasn't geeky enough to get it in the first place <pout> 

Thank you for the kind words.

Just two quick thoughts.

1) Do we let the character choose which ability score they can use for a prowess roll? Or should it still require a sex trick? And, should you be using a Prowess roll or Something else to evoke the MENTAL status condition Horny?

2) There should be a feat that grants you bonus sex tricks. And, should we start compiling a master list of all the sex tricks? I know I saw more than a few spread out across and insane number of posts.


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## kolvar

@Anabstercorian: thanx.
@VVrayven: 
1.  third possibility: class and race give possibilities (like a favored class) to choose the ability score for the prowess skill. 
Generally I would prefer, that you could decide on one on first rank and on additional several ranks later (one every 4th?)
2. No lists, befor we have decided on the basics. Anyone involved sure, that these rules will be the final basics we are working with?


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## VVrayven

> Anyone involved sure, that these rules will be the final basics we are working with?




We have to just wait for Death By Surfeit to finish that big ol' post he's going to do (thanxs again). After that we can look at the whole thing and finalize it. Then follow that nifty action plan until completion.


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Nothing quite so sinister, Vrayven. Just a weekend spent with a cherished one...

As promised, with the advent of free time comes the draft core mechanic for the GUCK. It’s not in too much of a presentable format, ie the mechanics do not read too easily, but this at least gives us the mechanics to mull over and start from scratch all over again. You’ll probably notice some quite extensive revisions chipped in by myself: I’m fully accountable for these, and the Spanish Inquisition is free to start. So, without further ado:

*GUCK CORE MECHANICS V0.1*

STATUS CONDITIONS

Note: The Physical and Mental conditions below only affect creatures with a sexual alignment; constructs, elementals, plants, undead, vermin and suchlike are immune to their effects.

Physical conditions (arousal)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text,Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic characters are also considered ‘Aroused’, as Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic are stronger forms of Arousal.

Aroused
Aroused characters are physically aroused and ready for congress, males having become erect and females lubricated. Unless compensated for somehow, any attempts at conventional intercourse without being Aroused beforehand incur a -5 circumstance penalty on the Prowess check. Aroused characters suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions, including combat). Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). An Aroused character that is not yet Horny must make a Will save (DC 10) each round or become so. A successful Spot check (DC 15 male, 20 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Peaked
Peaked characters are in a heightened state of arousal; their skin flushes with blood, their heart rate and breathing accelerates and they are on the approach to climax. The vivid sensations coursing through their bodies cause Peaked characters to suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions, including combat). When this period expires, characters are Aroused instead. They require a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast spells successfully, and if not Horny require a Will save (DC 15) each round to avoid becoming such. A successful Spot check (DC 5 male, 10 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Climaxed
Climaxed characters are overcome by waves of pleasurable sensation, either held in the rapture of an orgasm or teetering on the cusp of one. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 30). If they are successful, they may act as if _slowed_ but with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

A Climax typically lasts one round before dissipating, after which a male character is considered Fatigued. A female character can sustain a number of rounds of Climax equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum one) before becoming Fatigued. However, a skilled bedmate or spellcaster may prolong the experience with further Prowess checks or sensual magics; if so, each round spent in Climax after the first one spent Climaxed or Ecstatic deals one point of temporary Wisdom damage unless the character can pass a Will save (DC = Prowess check result or spell save DC). After this period the character may suffer Sexual Fatigue: see pXX for details.

Ecstasy
Not all orgasms are equal and these are the best of them: an Ecstatic character is lost to courses of blissful pleasure, lost to the world and held deeply in the rapture of exquisite sensation. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 40). If they are successful, they may act as if _slowed_ but with a -16 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 40 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

An Ecstatic state typically lasts one round before dissipating, after which the character is considered Fatigued. A character brought to Ecstasy must make a Will save or suffer one point of temporary Wisdom damage (DC = Prowess check result or spell save DC). However, a skilled bedmate or spellcaster may prolong the experience with further Prowess checks or sensual magics; if so, each round spent in Ecstasy after the first one spent Climaxed or Ecstatic deals 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage unless the character can pass a Will save (DC = partner’s check result or spell save DC).

Mental conditions (horniness)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Lustful and Delirious characters are also considered ‘Horny’, as Lustful and Sexually Delirious are stronger forms of Horniness. The penalties incurred by arousal and horniness do not stack; a given character only takes one set of arousal penalties and makes one Concentration check for spellcasting, taking the most severe value in each case.

Horny
Horny characters are mentally psyched up and raring to go. Characters can typically become Hornyby their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail; DMs should feel free to set a Will save in such circumstances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 10) for each minute they remain in this state, characters will approach any desirable partners present with advances, regardless of how out-of-place their comments may seem. They need a similar check each round to abstain from sexual activity should the opportunity present itself.

Indecent thoughts cloud the mind of a Horny character, causing them to suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions such as combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal effects, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20).

Lustful
A Lustful character not only desires sex, they crave it - their mind is consumed by lust and they seek to lose themselves in the sweet dreams of a libido without bounds. Such powerful desire seldom has a mundane basis, and can typically only be brought about by powerful sexcraft, carnal magics or exotic substances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 20) each minute they are in this condition, a Lustful character makes moves toward any possible partners, in accordance with their sexual alignment. If rebuffed, characters of evil alignments or low wit may attempt to rape the subjects of their attentions; others are likely to masturbate until they find relief. A successful check allows them to act normally, but with the penalties listed below. Should an opportunity arise, the character needs to make a similar Will save each round to avoid indulging.

Lustful characters suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Lustfulness typically lasts ten minutes, regardless of circumstances, before residing to Horniness. If the condition is brought about by an effect with a fixed duration, Lustfulness lasts that long. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check (DC 10) gives away the condition in another person.

Delirious
A Delirious character is beyond the reach of the world and lost in a private world of sensuality, devoid of the will to do anything but satisfy an all-consuming desire for base pleasure. This is not by any means a natural state - only through the machinations of powerful enchantments or by having their Wisdom reduced to 3 or lower whilst aroused can a character enter this state.

Unless the character succeeds in a Will save (DC 30) each round, they are considered Helpless, incapable of taking any action beyonds seeking out the nearest source of sexual relief and indulging themselves They lack the awareness to make seduction attempts, instead throwing themselves at whatever looks most satisfying - sexual alignment plays a role where there is a choice of partners, but beyonds that a Delirious character will consent to pretty much anything and anyone. They fail any saves they are required to make, and are suggestible as if _hypnotised_.

If the check is successful, the character may act with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions (twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor), spellcasting only being possible with a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level). They will remain in this state until their Wisdom rises above 3 or, more likely, they pass out through over-exertion. A Delirious character’s condition is obvious to the most casual look.

Other Conditions

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling. An Unwilling character may add a bonus (between 1 and 20 according to the campaign setting) to Fortitude and Will saves to resist mundane arousal or horniness, and to Concentration checks resulting from arousal or horniness. Becoming horny negates the benefits of being Unwilling.

Fatigued
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, any Prowess checks made to stimulate a Fatigued character suffer a -2 penalty. Fatigued characters can sustain a number of Climaxes equal to their Constitution modifer before becoming Exhausted. Undergoing an Ecstatic state whilst Fatigued results in character becoming Exhausted afterward.

Exhausted
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, any Prowess checks made to stimulate a Exhausted character suffer a -6 penalty. As Exhaustion overlaps Fatigue, only apply the largest penalty of the two. An Exhausted character who becomes Climaxed sustains one point of subdual damage per HD. An Exhausted character who becomes Ecstatic sustains subdual damage sufficient to make him pass out, plus an additional point of subdual damage per HD.

THE PROWESS CHECK

Prowess is a unique skill in that although its key ability score is Charisma, any ability can be used in its place, given that your description of your actions meets the following prerequisites:

Strength: A situation where you can use your physical build to lend more power to proceedings.
Dexterity: A situation where you have full freedom of movement and rely on athleticism.
Constitution: A situation where you are not pressed for time or otherwise stressed and can rely on rhythm.
Intelligence: A situation where you can bring your knowledge to bear, actively performing on your partner.
Wisdom: A situation where you can demonstrate your spirituality in a tantric manner.
Charisma: Charisma may always be used as the key ability for a Prowess check.

Performing a Prowess check on someone (including yourself) is a miscellaneous full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile.

Consult the table below for DCs according to your partner’s present condition, where the numbers on the left represent a male character, and the ones on the right a female one. If the character fails to meet the required DC, they may elect to change the status of their partner to any DC they did succeed. A partner may resist the attentions of the character by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC equal to the character's Prowess check, adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <7/<9 7/9 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <4/<5 4/5 8/10 16/20 32/40
Climaxed - - - 19/22 38/44
Ecstatic - - - 38/44 76/88

A VERY SOCIAL ART

Noteworthy performances can result in NPC attitude changes, allowing you to sleep your way to success if necessary. A given character can only have their attitude shifted by one performance at a time; the attitude changes overlap (do not stack). A character whose attitude is shifted one rank above Helpful is considered charmed, if shifted two ranks above Helpful they’re considered dominated, three changes and they’re considered to be in your thrall, all as the spells of the same name. If snapped out of their state by your actions, these lovers reside to being Helpful instead. Use one of the two systems below to work how satisfying a partner you have been:

Soft Focus rules:
For two consenting partners simple have each roll a Prowess check against the other with all relevant modifiers. Check the first column on the Gratification table for the result of the evening.

Hard Focus rules:
During a love making session, each lover accumulates a gratification value as they are pleasured. Every orgasm gives one point plus one point by every five in which the target DC is exceeded (round down). Example: a female in peaked needs a DC 20 to climax, if the roll is a 32 (wow!) the orgasm gives 3 gratification points. The total of these points can be checked on the Gratification table.

Gratification Table:
Soft Focus / Hard Focus / Performance
<10 / <1 / Disappointing
10 / 1 / Satisfactory
15 / 5 / Enjoyable
20 / 10 / Memorable
30 / 15 / Fantastic
40 / 20 / Extraordinary
50 / 25 / Heavenly
60 / 30 / Rapturous

Disappointing performance - You have failed to satisfy your partner, leaving them yearning for more with little place to turn to. The frustration your partner feels manifests in a negative attitude change (from Neutral to Unfriendly, for example) for the next week.

Satisfactory performance - Your partner has achieved satisfaction, and that is always good, as we all know. But it was nothing remarkable.

Enjoyable performance - You exhibited a bit more flair than the standard lover and may have even showed your partner a new trick. Your partner experiences one positive attitude change (from Neutral to Friendly, for example) for the next day.

Memorable performance - Your sensual skills have made an impression that will serve as a delightful memory for some time. Your partner experiences one positive attitude change (from Neutral to Friendly, for example). With time you may get a local reputation as an artful lover.

Fantastic performance - Even the most jaded of lovers would be impressed by the wondrous talent you’ve displayed. Your partner experiences two positive attitude changes (from Neutral to Helpful, for example) for the next day, and one positive attitude change thereafter. With time you may garner a regional reputation as a lover of significant note.

Extraordinary performance - You are likely the best lover your parnter has ever experienced, leaving them memories they will keep for the rest of their lives. Your partner experiences two positive attitude changes (from Neutral to Helpful, for example) hereafter. With time, your reputation as a lover may even spread nationwide.

Heavenly Experience - Things were done in the bedroom that are the stuff of legends and ribald pornographic etchings! The gods and goddesses of lust would be proud of you. In time, you may even draw their notice and be whisked away to visit them! +5 bonus to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 1d4 weeks. In addition, your lover will be charmed (as the spell) for 2d8 days.

Heavenly performance - Things were done in the bedroom that are the stuff of legends and ribald pornographic etchings! The gods and goddesses of lust would be proud of you. In time, you may even draw their notice and be whisked away to visit them! Your partner experience three positive attitude changes (from Neutral to charmed, for example) for the next day, and two positive attitude changes thereafter.

Rapturous performance - You utterly consumed your partner and touched their very soul with your pleasurous abilities. Your acts arise as a beacon to the sensual gods above, drawing your presence ever closer to them. Your partner experiences three positive attitude changes (from Neutral to dominated, for example) from now on.

* * *

My goodness, my apologies for the delay in bringing that monster to term, but I ended up thinking of more tweakings than I originally foresaw. Let us know of any recommendations you have for improving the script above; don’t worry about sounding picky, as we have to have the mechanics 100% right before making any more progress.

Following this we can get working on circumstantial modifiers and flavour text - sooner we can get the above finalised the better. Get your comments in as soon as possible! Our brief editing of the GUCK seems to have emerged as a restructuring from the ground upwards, but don’t be daunted - the Guide is shaping up beautifully, and I happily await every development.

Yours exhaustively,

Death By Surfeit


----------



## Psyckosama

What's the diffrence between this and the other GUCK thread?


----------



## VVrayven

> Nothing quite so sinister, Vrayven. Just a weekend spent with a cherished one...




 I'm glad it was a pleasant weekend.

As to the revisions. I'm breathless. You sure can sum up and edit. I love all the changed (even the axing of Over-Stimulated). I can't find any errors off-hand or even anything I think is off. Any for extra changes? Or should be finalize this core part and move on? (I'm itching to help edit the sex tricks )



> What's the diffrence between this and the other GUCK thread?




Well, Psyckosama, in here we discussion the actual writting, editing, and making of the new book. The other thread is mainly for tossing around ideas. Death By Surfeit moved development here a while back because nothing was getting done back over there. 

Any ideas on circumstantial modifiers yet? If not, I've got a couple I can post later... 

Excellent work Death by Surfeit, just excellent. ::blows a kiss::


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## Psyckosama

VVrayven said:
			
		

> * Well, Psyckosama, in here we discussion the actual writting, editing, and making of the new book. The other thread is mainly for tossing around ideas. Death By Surfeit moved development here a while back because nothing was getting done back over there.
> *




*nods* I guess, I should move my rules set for getting pregnant over here sometime... probelly after more imput and editing.


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## VVrayven

> *nods* I guess, I should move my rules set for getting pregnant over here sometime... probelly after more imput and editing.




I'm sure we would all love to see. However, we are still a little ways away from that point (i.e. still getting our core mechanic, skills, ad such complete before moving on to anything else. ) But feel free to discuss anything you like.

As Promised:

Okay. Here is what I was thinking for the Kinks circumstance bonuses:

Kinks and Turn-Offs:

Every character may have a number of Kinks (those sexual activities which they find a turn on) and Turn-Offs (those sexual activities which they particularly dislike). While these are completly up to the character 1-2 kinks and 1-2 Turn-Offs is a good estimate. These categories recognize a major like or dislike for the activity, indifference or even practice of the sexual acitvity described is not enough, only very strong feelings count.

Some examples of Kinks/Turn-Offs

Bondage, Submission, Domination, etc... (we need more obviously)

During each sexual encounter, the partners and DM must agree upon which kinks/turn-offs are a part of the sexual acitivty. These kinks and turn-offs are then considered to be activated. (Some Feats and Sex Trciks may only be applicable while certain kinks are active). For every kink that is activated, all prowess checks made TOWARD the activated partner gain a +1 circumstance bonus (these stack of course). Every Turn-Off that is activated makes all prowess checks made TOWARD the activated partner suffer a -2 (maybe -3) circumstance penalty.

Whatcha all think? Simple? Easy? Expandable?


----------



## Psyckosama

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm sure we would all love to see. However, we are still a little ways away from that point (i.e. still getting our core mechanic, skills, ad such complete before moving on to anything else. ) But feel free to discuss anything you like.
> *




Well, here it is anyway. This is currently in a state to flux until I decided how to handle some fine details. 

This is a character maintenance method. Rather then rolling for EVERY sexual encounter you do this once an in game month instead. This also take “out of view” encounters in account for “between game” time periods (you don't RP ever single time).

This is roughly based off of a system made by MA Lloyd for the GURPS system.

The Base chance of getting pregnant is a DC15 with the following modifiers where a natural 1 is always failure to consceve and a 20 is always a suceess. 

Momentairally I'm stuck on how to present the fact that some species just breed faster then others. I'll give both of my current ideas and ask for opinions.

Idea 1) If conception is sucessful roll a d% on the chart on p87 of the GUCK.

Idea 2): Apply modifiers for race, then do a DC 15 fort save. If it is sucessful, she's with child.

Modifiers:
Physical:
Age of optimal fertility (in humans, 16-35): +1
Past age of optimal fertility: -1
Good Constitution (12 or better): +1
Poor Constitution (9 or less): -1
Nursing Young: -2

Trying to get pregnent:
Actively trying to get pregnant: +2
Fertility Drugs: +2 to +4 
Fertility magic: CL/2+1

Limited Sexual Activity: 
One week out of the month: -2
Two Weeks: -1
Once: -4

Racial Modifiers: (Only with idea 2)
Very Low Fertility race: -4(IE: Elf)
Low Fertility Race: -2 (IE: Dwarf): 
Moderate Fertility Race: 0 (IE: Humans) 
High Ferlility race: +2 (IE: Orcs)

Paternal Modifiers: 
Impotent Mate: -1 
Very Low Potency race: -2
Low Potency Race: -1 
Moderate Potency Race: 0 
High Potency race: +1 

Contraceptives:
Rhythm Method: -3
Pill (normal): -4
Magic (normal): - (CL/2 + 1)
Simple Barrier: -5

High quality contraception, such as careful and regular casting of contraceptive magic, magic items, close adherence to the pill’s schedule, or other reliable methods only seceded on a natural 20

Abstinence and Sterilization (Magical or Otherwise) negates the need to roll, baring divine interference.

The Chart from Page 87:
Fertility = base chance + constitution-bonus. 

Base
Race Chance 
Dwarf 22% 
Elf 13% 
Gnome 20% 
Half-Elf 54% 
Halfling 50% 
Human 77% 
Half-Orc 89% (there was no Half-Orc entry in the GUCK)

I will be developed farther, but this is what I have so far.


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## Gez

Since we're talking about streamlining the system into a more 3e-consistent mechanics ([di]dommage[/i], I liked the 1 SP rank give 1 ST system, it was elegant), you should replace the percentile table by a more standard d20 rolls. % are meant to be used only when no modifier can apply.


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## Bastoche

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> Okay. Here is what I was thinking for the Kinks circumstance bonuses:
> 
> Kinks and Turn-Offs:
> 
> Every character may have a number of Kinks (those sexual activities which they find a turn on) and Turn-Offs (those sexual activities which they particularly dislike). While these are completly up to the character 1-2 kinks and 1-2 Turn-Offs is a good estimate. These categories recognize a major like or dislike for the activity, indifference or even practice of the sexual acitvity described is not enough, only very strong feelings count.
> 
> Some examples of Kinks/Turn-Offs
> 
> Bondage, Submission, Domination, etc... (we need more obviously)
> 
> During each sexual encounter, the partners and DM must agree upon which kinks/turn-offs are a part of the sexual acitivty. These kinks and turn-offs are then considered to be activated. (Some Feats and Sex Trciks may only be applicable while certain kinks are active). For every kink that is activated, all prowess checks made TOWARD the activated partner gain a +1 circumstance bonus (these stack of course). Every Turn-Off that is activated makes all prowess checks made TOWARD the activated partner suffer a -2 (maybe -3) circumstance penalty.
> 
> Whatcha all think? Simple? Easy? Expandable? *




Here is my contribution: I would implement that as a skill focus (sex trick X) feat. And we could add "disadvantages" that would be turn offs which would allow to acquire one skill focus (sex trick X) feat.  With a limit to the number of turn offs.

It's exactly like what you're suggesting except that someone could choose to aquire more kinks and possibly don't get any turn offs and still have the mechanics somehow balance. What do you think ?


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## VVrayven

As much as I like them, I think we need to stay away from the whole advantages/disadvantages thingy. It just isn't very 3e'ish... However... I agree, kinks should be Sex Tricks. I think it should be given that if any activity is a part of an encounter that one partner doesn't like, a -1 to -10+ circumstance penalty should apply.

I also like your input Bastoche, however, the main idea of a KINK was to supply your partner with a circumstance bonus to pleasure you. Sex Focus is competance bonus to your checks. 

Speaking of Sex Tricks... I started on the revisions. Some had to be dropped because the STR-CHA chain is now allowed without tricks. I added a few and tweaked them a little. We need to take a long look at the prerequisites and we need more of them (I know there are a lot, but variety is better). In addition, stay away from very powerful Sex Tricks, those should be feats .

Well here we go:

Adaptive Lover
Prerequisites: 8 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Easy to Read, Intuitive Lover, Species Focus
Benefits: You have enough familiarity with sex to be comfortable with lovers of different species. Select a creature type (Humanoid, Fey, Magical Beast, etc.). You are familiar with creatures from that creature type, and suffer no penalties due to species difference when engaged in sex with partners from that group. You may take this Sex Trick multiple times, selecting a different creature type each time.

Coordinated Lover
Prerequisites: 5 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Dexterous Lover, Intuitive Lover
Benefits: When engaged in sex with multiple partners, you may make an additional Sexual Prowess check for another partner. This sexual trick may be taken multiple times, raising the number of partners you can pleasure by one with each instance.

Creative Lover
Prerequisites: 1 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Int 12+
Benefits: When using Intelligence as your relevant ability for Sexual Prowess checks, you may add 1.5 times your Intelligence modifier to the check (round down).

Delay Orgasm
Prerequisites: 5 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Intuitive Lover, Con 12+
Benefits: Whenever you make a Sexual Prowess check, you may take a penalty up to -5 on your roll to add the same number (up to +5) to your Fortitude save for resisting pleasure. This number cannot exceed the number of ranks in Sexual Prowess that you have.

Dexterous Lover
Prerequisites: 1 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Dex 12+
Benefits: When using Dexterity as your relevant ability for Sexual Prowess checks, you may add 1.5 times your Dexterity modifier to the check (round down).

Disease Resistance
Prerequisites: 4 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Con 14+
Benefits: You have a +2 resistance bonus to all Fortitude saves to resist sexually transmitted diseases. You may take this sexual trick up to three times, each instance increasing the bonus by an additional +2.

Easy to Read
Prerequisites: 2 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Cha 12+
Benefits: Your partners receive an additional +1 insight bonus to their Sexual Prowess checks due to your communicative nature.

Enduring Lover
Prerequisites: 2 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Con 12+
Benefits: You have a +2 resistance bonus to your Fortitude save for resisting pleasure.

Everywhere at Once
Prerequisites: 12 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Dexterous Lover, Sexual Focus (at least 5 types), Sexual Combination, Dex 16+
Benefits: Once per sexual encounter, you may attempt to use all your sexual skills on your partner at once. You may make a Dexterity check with a DC of 14. If successful, you may add a +15 competence bonus to your Sexual Prowess check. If you fail, you incur a -5 penalty to your Sexual Prowess check instead.

Extra Mile
Prerequisites: 10 ranks Sexual Prowess, Sexual Stamina
Benefit: The number of orgasms you can sustain while fatigued before becoming exhausted is increased by 1.5. This trick can be taken again to increase this ammount to x2.0.

Fit Lover
Prerequisites: 1 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Con 12+
Benefits: When using Constituion as your relevant ability for Sexual Prowess checks, you may add 1.5 times your Constituion modifier to the check (round down).

Force Pleasure
Prerequisites: 10 ranks Sexual Prowess, Intense Lover
Benefit: When pleasuring a non-consenting partner, you may halve their bonuses granted from Unwilling status.

Greedy Lover
Prerequisites: 4 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Easy to Read
Benefits: Whenever you make a Sexual Prowess check, you may take a penalty up to -5 on your roll to add the same number (up to +5) to your partner's Sexual Prowess check. This number cannot exceed the number of ranks in Sexual Prowess that you have.

Instant Withdrawal
Prerequisites: 5 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Dexterous Lover, Lightning Reflexes, Dex 14+
Benefits: You gain a +4 bonus to Reflex Saves to use the Withdrawal form of birth control.

Intense Lover
Prerequisites:  8 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Stunning Pleasure
Benefits: Once per sexual encounter, if your partner is Aroused and your Sexual Prowess check result is 20 or greater, you may force your partner to automatically fail her Fortitude save to resist pleausre, bringing her to Peaked status.

Intuitive Lover
Prerequisites: 1 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Wis 12+
Benefits: When using Wisdom as your relevant ability for Sexual Prowess checks, you may add 1.5 times your Wisdom modifier to the check (round down).

Kink
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: Select a certain type of sexual activity or behavior such as (bondage, oral, submissive, domination, etc...) If the kink is an element of the sexual encounter, all partners recieve a +1 circumstance bonus while using Sexual Prowess checks on you.

Masochism
Prerequisites: 2 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Must have a noted enjoyment of receiving minor pain
Benefits: Whenever you take subdual damage during sex, your partner adds the damage to his or her Sexual Prowess check result.

Maw Stuffing
Prerequisites:  5 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Dexterous Lover, Sexual Focus (oral)
Benefits: You can relax your mouth and throat muscles more than most people, allowing you to swallow larger phallic objects than normal. How large an object you can accommodate is based on how many ranks of Sexual Prowess you have.
Table S-2: Maw Stuffing
Ranks of Sexual Prowess
Effect
5 to 9
You can fit a phallic object of your size category completely in your mouth, granting a +1 comfort bonus to Sexual Prowess checks.
10 to 14
You can fit a phallic object of one size category larger than you partially into your mouth.
15 to 19
You can fit a phallic object of one size category larger than you completely in your mouth, granting a +1 comfort bonus to Sexual Prowess checks.
20 to 24
You can fit a phallic object of two category sizes larger than you partially into your mouth.
25 or more
You can fit a phallic object of two category sizes larger than you completely in your mouth, granting a +1 comfort bonus to Sexual Prowess checks.

Muscular Control
Prerequisites: 5 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Powerful Lover, Intuitive Lover
Benefits: When being penetrated, you can contract your internal muscles at will, intensifying your partner's sensations. You gain a +1 bonus to your Sexual Prowess checks when being penetrated. You may take this trick multiple times, increasing your bonus by +1 with each instance.

Orifice Stuffing
Prerequisites: 6 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Dexterous Lover, Dex 14+
Benefits: You can relax the muscles of your vagina, anus, or other applicable non-bony orifice (i.e., no mouths), allowing you to take unusually large objects into that orifice. How large an object you can accommodate is based on how many ranks of Sexual Prowess you have.
Table S-3: Orifice Stuffing
Ranks of Sexual Prowess
Effect
5 to 9
You can fit a phallic object of one size category larger than you partially in your orifice.
10 to 14
You can fit a phallic object of one size category larger than you completely in your orifice, granting a +1 comfort bonus to Sexual Prowess checks.
15 to 19
You can fit a phallic object of two size categories larger than you partially in your orifice.
20 to 24
You can fit a phallic object of two size categories larger than you completely in your orifice, granting a +1 comfort bonus to Sexual Prowess checks.
25 or more
You can fit a phallic object of three size categories larger than you partially in your orifice.

Overwhelming Force
Prerequisites: 12 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Powerful Lover, Stunning Pleasure, Str 14+
Benefits: Your sexual technique is so physically intense that you can drive your partner to uncontrollable heights of pleasure. Once per sexual encounter, if your partner is Aroused or Peaked, you may make a Strength check with a DC of 14. If you succeed, your partner becomes Lustful.

Powerful Lover
Prerequisites: 1 Rank Sexual Prowess, Str 12+
Benefits: When using Strength as your relevant ability for Sexual Prowess checks, you may add 1.5 times your Strength modifier to the check (round down).

Quick Recovery
Prerequisites: 4 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Con 12+, Male
Benefits: You can recover from an orgasm sooner than most men. After having an orgasm, you may make a Sexual Prowess check to recover quickly. Your recovery time is based on the result.
Table S-4: Quick Recovery Times
Check Result
Recovery Time
9 or less
Normal recovery time (2d6 minutes)
10 - 14
5 Minutes
15 - 19
4 Minutes
20 - 24
3 Minutes
25 - 29
2 Minutes
30 - 34
1 Minute
35 or higher
No recovery time - you are instantly ready

Responsive
Prerequisites: 6 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Intuitive Lover, Wis 14+
Benefits: Whenever using Wisdom as the relevant ability for your Sexual Prowess checks, you gain a +2 insight bonus to your Sexual Prowess checks.

Sadism
Prerequisites: 3 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Must have a noted enjoyment of inflicting pain
Benefits: Whenever you inflict subdual damage during sex, your partner adds the damage to his or her Sexual Prowess check result.

Selfless Lover
Prerequisites: 4 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Intuitive Lover
Benefits: Whenever your partner makes a Sexual Prowess check, you may take a penalty up to -5 on your arousal check roll to subtract the same amount (up to -5) from your partner's arousal check roll. This number cannot exceed the number of ranks in Sexual Prowess that you have.  

Sexual Combination
Prerequisites: 8 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Dexterous Lover, Sexual Focus (any two), Dex 14+
Benefits: Once per sexual encounter, you may attempt to use two separate techniques on your partner at once. You may make a Dexterity check with a DC of 14. If successful, you may add a +10 competence bonus to your Sexual Prowess check. If you fail, you incur a -5 penalty to your Sexual Prowess check instead.

Sexual Expertise
Prerequisites: 4 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Creative Lover, Int 14+
Benefits: Whenever you make a Sexual Prowess check, you may take a penalty up to -5 on your roll to add the same number (up to +5) to your partner's arousal check roll. This number cannot exceed the number of ranks in Sexual Prowess that you have.

Sexual Focus
Prerequistes: 3 ranks Sexual Prowess
Benefit: Select a specific type of sexual activity that you have trained at (Anal, Bondage, Masturbation, Oral, Position(specific), Toys, etc...) You gain a +1 compentecy bonus when this activity is an element of the sexual encounter. This trick may be taken multiple times, each time increasing the bonus by +1.

Sexual Stamina
Prerequisites: 4 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Con 12+
Benefits: You can withstand more orgasms than normal before tiring. If male, you can withstand a number of orgasms equal to your Constitution modifier before becoming fatigued. If female, you can withstand twice your Constitution modifier in orgasms before becoming fatigued.

Smooth Lover
Prerequisites: 5 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Easy to Read, Cha 14+
Benefits: When using Charisma as your relevant ability for Sexual Prowess checks, you may add 1.5 times your Charisma modifier to the check (round down).

Species Focus
Prerequisites:  4 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Must have had sex with a member of the chosen species
Benefits: Select a species. You suffer no penalties to sex with that particular species due to different species, and instead gain a +2 familiarity bonus to your Sexual Prowess checks whenever having sex with a member of that species. You may take this trick multiple times, selecting a different species each time.

Stunning Pleasure
Prerequisites: 6 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Powerful Lover, Str 14+
Benefits: If you pleasure a lover with the Powerful Lover trick and indicate a +2 or greater change to your partner's sexual save DC, he or she must make a Fortitude save with a DC of your Strength. If they fail, they are considered Stunned for the next minute and may not make a Sexual Prowess check at the beginning of the next minute.

Talk Dirty
Prerequisites: 1 Rank Sexual Prowess, 2 Ranks Bluff, Charisma 12+
Benefits: You gain a +2 synergy bonus to Bluff checks when attempting to arouse a potential partner through sexual innuendo.

Tantric Lore
Prerequisites: 8 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Intuitive Lover, Enduring Lover
Benefits: You gain a +4 bonus to all Fortitude saves to resist pleausre. Also, you may choose to apply or ignore this bonus at will.

Teasing Lover
Prerequisites: 6 Ranks Sexual Prowess, Creative Lover, Sexual Expertise
Benefits: You are able to keep your partner at the edge of ecstasy. If your Sexual Prowess check result is 15 or greater, you may choose to allow your partner to automatically succeed her arousal check. You may use this trick a number of times in a row equal to your ranks in Sexual Prowess.

Whew.... ::breaths heavy:: Well. Let me know whatcha all think.  I'm going to take a nap now.


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## Death By Surfeit

Psychosama: Whilst your pregnancy rules are indeed good, they are best placed in the GUCK forum, which is designed for brainstorming, posting new ideas, rules, and suchlike and discussing them - your rules are fine posted there, and in no way will be ignored.

The GUCK development forum is a focused attempt to edit all the material we’ve come across step by step, spearheaded by Kolvar, Sorn, myself and our newcomer, the delightful VVrayven. Rest assured that we’ll come to your pregnancy rules when its appropriate (we’re running a very structured schedule here) and include them in the final edition.

VVrayven: My goodness, I’m used to dispensing compliments, not receiving them! Nevertheless, I’m glad you liked the draft edition I proposed, and unless anyone has revisions to make, we can get underway with the next stage of editing: I feel that circumstantial modifiers are quickly sorted, and serve to round out the core rather effectively.

With regards your own contributions, the fundamental nature of kinks and turn-offs is good indeed, but as you say we could indeed do with a little bulking out. Check my comments on Bastoche’s writing for more details, but perhaps they should be generated randomly for a character, with some races having inherent kinks?

To revert to the conceptual for a moment, I need to know whether we are operating a ‘sexual alignment’ system, _a la_ the DbS conversion: a Drive of Abstinent, Moderant or Indulgent; and an Orientation of Homo, Bi-Homo, Bi, Bi-Hetero or Hetero; kinks would be used to build on this frame.

And another question, this time of terminology. In the DbS conversion, Kinks were a catch-all term for Philias and Phobias. What are we going to use with regards the things people are aroused by, put off by, and (if anything) a term for both? Philias and Phobias intermesh with the terminology nicely, but are a little clinical; on the flip side, to use Turn-ons and Turn-offs is clear but a little colloquial or contemporary. What do people reckon? Are there any other options, or do you like either of the above?

Bastoche: I feel that kinks don’t have too much of a balance issue, as they are both beneficial (in allowing for greater pleasure or dropping the ease of pleasure) and a weak point (too much ease getting aroused gives another person power over you, and a begative kink can hamper things soewhat and limit your choice of partner). I dilsike the feat option somewhat: too weak and too limited for anyone to consider taking. I heard some ideas floating around about Prowess being done as a Perform-esque skill, which would cater to deviant practices easily: each one is learnt as a different application of your Prowess bonus.

This raises some concern as to the nature of Sex Tricks - as a skill addition, they don’t really conform to the ‘flavour’ of 3rd ed. As a feat, an awful lot of them pale somewhat. What stance are we going to take? I suppose we really need to address the issue of the Prowess skill. The two options that spring to mind are to have Prowess as a standard skill that gives Sex Tricks (as used in the NUCK), an open-ended skill with tricks used as feats (as used in the DbS) or, my present inclination, having it as Perform-esque, with particularly notable effects being codified as feats instead. Anyone?

To put forward something of my own, I’ve assembled a few generic modifiers to Prowess check DCs:

+4 when making more than one Prowess check in a round, cumulative for further checks
+2 when subject of check is Fatigued
+6 when subject of check is Exhausted
+2 odd technique
+5 very odd technique, or involving a Turn-on/Philia/Whatever that the person does not share
+10 extremely odd technique, or involving a Turn-off/Phobia/Whatever of the person
+total damage received in round if subject receives damage (lethal or subdual)
-total damage received in round if subject is masochistic
-total damage dealt in round if sunject is sadistic

Most of these are rather general, and I’m bound to have missed something. Let me know what you think.

Keep that feedback circulating, and may fate bless you with good ideas!

Death By Surfeit


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## Bastoche

Just a question here:

Do the prowess skill needs "normal" skills points to be spent and do the GUCK feats need to be taken from ordinary feat or is there a separate list ?

My point is threefold: first I think the GUCK rules should not affect the rest of the gaming mechanics. In other words, dropping the GUCK rules to run a straigth D&D campaign wouldn't require you to rebuild in part your character.

Second, since it's more a favor thing than anything else, and the mechanics sorta wants to be much more realistic than d20 usually is, I don't see a problem building new un-d20-like rules. Adding a sexual alignement (which is a godd idea IMO) leads to the idea that you could run a separate charcater sheet, one concerning adventuring abilities and one concerning GUCK abilities.

Third, I don't think an 20th level character who mostly gained "experience" through adventuring should aquice a better prowess skill check (by spending skills points in the skill. I'm thinking to experience table, one acquired through adventuring and the other acquired in the bed. 

Just some random thoughts...


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## VVrayven

"My goodness, I’m used to dispensing compliments, not receiving them!" 

Well I guess this is my opinion and I'll respond to all because I think somethings are relavant to most of the issues at hand.

1) Conditional Modifiers
I love em. Use em! 

2) "first I think the GUCK rules should not affect the rest of the gaming mechanics. In other words, dropping the GUCK rules to run a straigth D&D campaign wouldn't require you to rebuild in part your character."

There is something to be said about this. While I agree that these rules want to be used, I do think we should stick to the core 3Eesck view of the world. Why? Well because everyone else does. As you said, having levels doesn't make you instantly good at sex, so likewise, those epic dudes that have lots of combat levels probably won't have paid for the sexual skills either. I'm for sticking with the 3e feat and skill model and not for changing things too much. This is the basic guide. "separate charcater sheet, one concerning adventuring abilities and one concerning GUCK abilities." This has merit, should be considered, and is very tempting... However I stand with my above statement.


3) That being said...

I think we should include sexual alignment. It will help with the spells and has a 3e feel.

4) Despite all the work I just did on the Sex Tricks... ::sigh::  I agree with Death by Surfeit and feel we should keep this simple. Why? Well because it makes more sense to go abstract that to be specific. After all, we aren't DEFINING orgasm, we have state called climax that can mean a number of things. I think the Perform-esque skill idea is ideal and support it. We will need all new feats though to compensate for the loss of the Sex Tricks, which I may have a few ideas on already. ::

5) Definition of Kinks.

Okay. Well this gets kinda tricky. Do we make it abstract or make a rule system covering it... I'm for a blend of both. We use Kink to define all things that are related to the sex situations (4 categories: Fetishes/Frets and Philias/Phobias) 

Fetishes/Frets is the lesser category. It will contain the subjests of oral sex, certain positions, submission, bondage, etc... Fetishes are things they are into, Frets are things they aren't.

Philias/Phobias can be of the above with a stronger effect or all new conditions which Nympho... 

These shouldn't be purchased or bought. They should simply be appiled as any other characteristic in Six of the PHB (as should sexual alignment). They balance themselves. Sexual Dieases should be covered in a seperate area and may inflict Kinks.

That's just my take on them. Expect another post from me in just a bit. I have a delightfully fiendish idea! 

Oh yes! One more thing. I'm going to try and write up a source extension of the GUCK for Xeregor sometime in the distant future. If anyone wants to help... ::shyly looks around::


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## VVrayven

Sexual Prowess (if it be Perform-eqse) should have all the same categories as are listed in the Kinks sections.

I think all these feats are good:

Aroused Casting [Metamagic], Body to Die For [General], Coitus of Power [Metamagic], Conductive Kiss [Metapsionic], Control Arousal [Psionic], Divine Virginity [General], Improved Pleasure Touch [Psionic], Iron Celibacy [General], Kiss Spell [Metamagic], Mind Over Sexual Endurance [Psionic], Pleasure Touch [Psionic], Rape of Power [Metamagic], Sexual Energy[Metamagic], Sexual Pheromones Secretion [Psionic], Sexual Recharge [Psionic], Still Standing [Psionic], Transmitting Kiss [Metamagic], Transmitting Sex [Metamagic], and Transmitting Orgasm [Metamagic].

I think Sexappeal should be changed to this set:

Alluring [General]
Prerequitisites: Ch 13
You are particularily atractive to the members of the opposite sex and other that find you sexually compatible. When in your presence such persons suffer -2 penalty to following skills: Appraise, Listen, Sense Motive and Spot. In addition you get aditional +2 circumstance bonus when attempting the following checks against such individuals: Bluff, Diplomacy, and Pick Pocket. For the feat to work you must engage persons attention by provocative manerisms, conversation and/or clothing. Any noticed hostility on your part, or that of your obvious allies, breaks the effect of the feat on the person affected permanently. Otherwise it can be used unlimited ammount of times. The bonus/penalty can be reduced by DM due to circumstances of the person(s) affected.

Enchanting Aura [General]
Prerequitisites: Alluring, Ch 15
Your body and charisma extert and amazing aura making you irresistible to potential mates. This feat functions as and replaces Alluring, but the bonuses and penalties increase to +4. You may also attempt to make a suggestion (as per the spell) on one person you have attracted. The DC to resist is equal to your Charisma score. This ability can be used one per day, per person attracted.

Enthralling Grace [General]
Prerequitisites: Alluring, Enchanting Aura, Ch 19+
As with Enchanting Aura, but the bonuses and penalties increase to +7. You may make two suggestions a day to each person and attempt to charm a single individual with your thrall. (this ability can only successfully affect one person at a time).

And we should think about these, all of them need prereqs and better descriptions though 

Coordinated Lover [General]: No penalty (or reduced penalty) to pleasuring up to three partners.

Adaptive Lover [General]: No penalty (or reduced penalty) to pleasuring all different species (or perhaps a class, dragons, beasts, etc...)

Combine Sexual Talent [General]: Use two ability modifiers to your prowess roll at once.

Erotic Stamina [General]: You can withstand more orgasms than normal before tiring. If male, you can withstand a number of orgasms equal to your Constitution modifier before becoming fatigued. If female, you can withstand twice your Constitution modifier in orgasms before becoming fatigued.

Accomidating [General]: Combination Maw Stuff + Orifice Stuffing.

Erotic Muscle Control [General]: +2 bonus to your Sexual Prowess checks when being penetrated, +2 resistance bonus to your Fortitude save for resisting pleasure...

Sexual Expertise [General]: Take a penalty up to -5 on your roll to add the same number (up to +5) to your partner's arousal check roll. Or you can: take a penalty up to -5 on your roll to add the same number (up to +5) to your Fortitude save for resisting pleasure.

Stunning Pleasure [General]: Bringing partner to Climax results in them being stunned for 1d4 minutes if you can make a prowess check DC 22.

Force Partner [General]: Halves the bounses gained from unwilling. If you succeed a Prowess roll DC 25, they must make a will save against your roll or become horny.

Maddening Touch [General]: If you hold a partner at peak for five rounds you may make a Prowess check DC 25. If successful they must succeed a will save against your roll or become lustful.

Pleasure Resistance [General]: Apply a +4 bonus to Fortitude saves against pleasure at will.

Overwhelming Pleasure [General]: Apply a -3 on all partner's Fortitude saves to resist pleasure.

Whatcha all think?  :: Nap time again...


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## Gez

1°) As I said, I liked the trick mechanism.

However, if it is changed to a mechanism closer to Perform (or, by the way, speak language, with the difference SL don't demand skill check by normal rules), why not.

A great number of sex tricks were simply bonuses to some peculiar activity. They could be adapted to mere "proficiency". I don't know (I should have to chek, I guess) what is the Perform penalty for a bard trying to, say, dance, when he don't have this performance type, but let say, -4, like weapons. This would work the same way for sex tricks.

What I didn't really liked in the previous system was that the various focus tricks were stackable ad infinitum, and this was a way to effectively double your prowess check result. Turning the focus into "proficiencies" would solve the problem.

However, unless these "proficiencies" are rather narrow in focus, it may be hard for a character that don't have many "deviance" to become a good lover. Maybe taking a "proficiency" should not be required when increasing the Sexual Prowess rank ?

I mean, I've a PC, I can see her wanting to do it the classic way (1), to "welcome him at the rear door" (2), then using her mouth (3), her hands (4), and even her breasts (5)... She's absolutely not interested, to the contrary, in anything SM, toys, or multiple partners. That makes her cap at 5.

It will probably be hard to find a real alternative to the old system. Taking smooth lover, muscular control, and so on. 

2°) About feats: I don't think any player character that isn't centered on sex could afford sexual feats. Feats that actually improve your efficiency and survivability at adventuring are preferable. 

And I think I have an idea to solve both problems at once: what would you think of buying sexual feats with *a number of* sexual prowess ranks. For example, 3* ranks without taking a proficiency = 1 free sexual feat.

(*or 4, or 5, or 2... we can use a fixed number, or give a "cost" at each feat, depending on its potency.)

I know that would not be actually consistant with existing d20 schemes. But, hell, we should not be afraid to deviate a little when that's the most appropriate. This solution is reminiscent of the old sex trick system, but stay balanced.

I'm worried about the netbook being the most usable possible. If the cost is too high for sexual rules, about everything that could be used by any character would be the eventual pregnancy rules.

Making characters pay skill points is IMHO the highest cost they can afford if the benefit is purely sexual.

The alternative to buying feats with Sexual Prowess ranks would be to give bonus sexual feats by levels for every character classes.


3°) Finally, should we grant PC classes sexual benefits (like what I've worked on, see page 7 on the idea thread) ?


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## kolvar

Well lets see:
1. The Proficiency mechanism sounds nice
2. All feats, we got so far, give you either modifications to mundane tasks through sex (allowing better spell casting etc.) or using your sexuallity to modify something else (body to die for). 
I think, that someone, who likes to play with these feats, find ways to use them. If you take your charakter to a different GM, you will have to modify it in most instances anyway.
Therefor, I see no problem with this. People, who take these feats, are aware, that they are not on the standard side anymore.
If we allow feats through skill-ranks, we are on the mini-feats side again, where we came from to the sex tricks. 
About Skills: I would opt for giving massive synergy-bonuses through sexual prowess to different other skills (diplomacy, bluff, inuendo, knowledge (anatomy), knowledge (sexuality), knowledge (philosophy), heal, etc), depending on the tricks, the characters know and the situation (and maybe vice versa) (the fighter with no knowledge about anatomy, who can point to the areas, women may be pleasured best, the special walk, when you are sure of your sexual prowess, men react to. Or think about tantra or the kamasutra, which are not only books with dirty pictures and ways to receive the greatest pleasure, but philosophical roads to enlightment (in some way)). This would entice people to take sexual prowess, just to enhance their other skills (especially spymasters come to mind). 
3. I like the idea of the influence of the character-class on sexual performance (and your discription)


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## Bastoche

I'm with Gez on the feat issue. There's too many IMO to integrate them in the normal feat selection. I'm not sure about the mini-feat. But I'm thinking maybe give one sexual feat per 4 character levels. The other possible thing is to create a "base" GUCK totally 3E in spirit and then create an optionnal complement taking into account these few points and making a less 3Eesque version of the GUCK. I'm thinking more details and an independant progression for "adventuring" and "pleasuring". I'm even thinking of a complement that isn't centered on adventuring (in a classic way) with new base classes centered on GUCK theme.

I haven't read the part on benefits for certain class. _a priori_ I'm against it. Some classes will be better on certain things because being of that classe, they will have certain ability array.

I'm for as many options as possible .


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## kolvar

So, you are against divine feats, because any character, who is not into divine things, has no use for them and there are so many feats anyway? (g: just a tease)
I am realy ok with the sex tricks, I have been OK with the mini-feats, but by now, over 1 1/2 year have past and a lot of decisions where made to keep the guide closer to the official rules. That is why we are at this board again, because the basic rules where not close enough. If we start to do mini-feats, because no one will take the normal feats (which is not true, I got two characters of friends in my campaign that do and my campaign had three evenings of purely sexual adventure in 3 years.) we are going quite a bit away from the core. Sex tricks along the line of the performance skill do have a precedence.
Some of the sexual feats are rather powerful and do have influence on normal live (combat/ role-playing situations), therefor I would not grant extra feats to anyone.
You are right, that the stuff, we got at the moment for the sex tricks, should not become feats.

But we are not there yet, until we have clearly stated, what the basic rules are: So lets state, if we are done with the basics and compile a base-file with the basic rules, that everyone can refer to.
Gez?
Anab?
Sorn?
VVrayven?
DbS?
Bastoche?
Zelda?
(and all, I may have forgotten at the moment: Please read the new rules and give a statement. I would like to have a clear statement on the basic rules befor we come to the infights about mini-feats, sex-tricks, bonus feats and such.)

Kolvars Statement: I like the basic-rules and will go with them, if everyone else does!


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## Bastoche

I get the point and I fully agree with it. 

I just think that there is basically two way to approach GUCK.

The first is to make a "softcore" set of rules that would work like as a "performesque skill" like the current main proposition.

The second is to make a "hardcore" (optionnal) set of rules that would rather work as a combat-like system. Resolved in turns (rather than rounds) with a set of possible actions. Every character would have the "full sex action", "move equivalent", "move", etc.

I suggest we concentrate on the first approach but keep in mind the second as an eventual complement. I personnally think it's irrelevent to create feats and/or PrC for the first approach. With that approach, all what needed is a mechanic to add a little spice to D&D adventuring. 

In the second approach, however, sex is the main theme and more or less the very goal of the campaign. If the campaign was a movie, the first approach would be the Idianna Jones or James Bond sex interlude. The second would be an erotic movie based in a medieval-fantasy setting.

That's my point about those feats. There's kinda halfway between the first and the second approach. I go into much less specifics for the general, first approach feats and go into more details (and add a second layer to the character selection of class, feats and skills) for the second.

Therefore, there would be three types of campaigns: soft, medium and hard.

The soft campaign would only require a simple mechanics for broad results of a sex encounter. A simple skill check and a few tables. This stage is pretty trivial.

The medium campaign is more or less what the currently suggested rules imply. Sex is not the main theme, but sex encounters are more detailed. There's a few feats that could make an "adventuring" use of sex either in combat or in social encounters. I think for this level, PrC is overkill.

The hard campaign has sex as a main theme and instead of having fight scene you would have sex scene. Sort of. You would have sex-oriented PrC. Maybe even base classes. At this point. You could even not require the use of the PHB and almost get a new d20 game.

What I think we should keep in mind is that it should (or maybe just could) be easy to go from one level to the other, rule-wise. You would have to make minor (or maybe major) changes to your character to go from one type of campaign to the other, but the mechanics would remain more or less the same (except for the added complexity from one level to the other).

It's just some basic idea that could be reworked.

I think the real point is what role GUCK wants to fill concerning these three campaign types ?


----------



## kolvar

proposal: The medium aproach is our main approach, the soft approach is put in a side-bar, the heavy-approach is handled in the web-enhancement.


----------



## Bastoche

Exactly what I wanted to hear. Carry on 

I think we'll have to make sure feats do not override eventual sex-trick/mini-feats So the last bunch of suggested feats from Wrayven should be put on ice for the web enhancement as mini-feat, or more focused feats... we'll see.

Hum... What about PrC ? (I know we're not there yet but still...)


----------



## VVrayven

Gee, seems like we have had some debate.  Sorry if I got a little over-zealous on the feat conversion. I still think some of them are a good idea.

Wrayven's Opinion: I think we should stick with the basic rules and a perform-esque Prowess skill.

However, I think a side bar than mentions an option for extra feats or skills in a highly sexual game would not be out of line. But I do think it should have the words "Variant" in front of it.

Another thing to remember is that this whole thing was build around the concept of taking 20 and perfectly average people with zero ranks being able to get by. Just three ranks in this skill makes you far better than the average person. I mean adventurers should get no special treatment. If you run a sex style game and have adventure, use the sidebar, else I think we should stick to the core rules, as some of the feats are pretty cool and powerful.

That's my take on it.


----------



## VVrayven

> I think we'll have to make sure feats do not override eventual sex-trick/mini-feats So the last bunch of suggested feats from Wrayven should be put on ice for the web enhancement as mini-feat




Just use the sex trick list in the posts before it as the Trick list, it's far more comprehensive. 



> What about PrC




We have a few, but some major edits have to be done.


----------



## Bastoche

Instead of a side bar, I'd rather see an optional chapter or a "slapbook-like" add on. Something turnbased like combat. Which require too large sidebars IMO .

Should we include rules for using minis ?


----------



## VVrayven

> Should we include rules for using minis ?




You mean you don't use them now? 



> Instead of a side bar, I'd rather see an optional chapter or a "slapbook-like" add on. Something turnbased like combat.




Just to clarify:

We have two sets of rules currently in development. A Soft-Focus and a Hard-Focus. Both rules sets (as I see it) are going to be presented in full. The Soft-Focus rules are to see the quick results of one encounter without much rolling or detail. The Hard-Focus rules are indeed turn based and work in a "combat-style" manner. They work with a 6 second round just like standard d20 and involve a series of skill checks and Fortitude saves for resistance. That's why all the DC's are so high and why a common idiot with a 0 in Prowess can still perform to satisfaction (by taking 20). Hence, over 2 minutes, a one category improvement can be made. (So 6 minutes total for the whole encounter).

All of this information about the rules sets I thought was already assumed. I do not think the way the assigning of feats and tricks, or mini-feats works should change between the soft and hard focus rules. They should be a quick and detail version without needed to have different core stats, IMHO.

Whatever we decide on, "perform-eqse", "sex-trick + mini-feat", or anything else, I believe it should function identically for both Soft-Focus and Hard-Focus. If we want a sidebar for giving additional skills or tricks or feats by level or prowess as an optional rule, I think that is okay too.


----------



## Bastoche

Ok great.


----------



## Gez

I share VVrayven's (that's VV or W ? Your username and sigpic disagree  ) opinion that there should be no statblock difference between soft-system and hard-system.

If we go the route of the perform-esque system, I'd like to point out that there's a kind of precedent for skill ranks granting special abilities -- bardic music. Of course, bardic music requires to be a bard, and is limited in uses per day; but it's also more powerful and overall useful than sex tricks. Wonder if we may use the same system.

Let say that former sex trick X could now be used by any character with Y ranks in Sexual Prowess and with the "sexual proficiency" Z, for example. 

We may, as a parallel to bardic music, limit the number of use per day, to be equal to the rank in the skill (rather than the class level, since that would not be a class ability). That way a 1st-level character who max this skill would be better than a high level hero that don't really care about that stuff (1 or 2 ranks) -- that's about what we're trying to get, right ?

What do you think ?


----------



## VVrayven

> I share VVrayven's (that's VV or W ? Your username and sigpic disagree  ) opinion that there should be no statblock difference between soft-system and hard-system.




I'm glad you agree.  (It's a W, long story on why I once had to adopt the double Vs and then it just kinda became habit. Pronounced Ray-Ven,  )



> Let say that former sex trick X could now be used by any character with Y ranks in Sexual Prowess and with the "sexual proficiency" Z, for example.




This is a really cool idea. In my heart, I want to do the sex tricks and feat route. Perhaps a reduced list of sex tricks that can only be used like bardic music. That way we could make Prowess like Perform AND have all the neat tricks and abilities AND feats. I really like the idea.

Just in case I'm missing the point (which I often do, ) It would work something like this:?

A character could have Prowess, 4 ranks (oral(male), position A, submission, oral(female)).

That would qualify them for

Improved Oral Sex Trick:
Prereqs: 3 ranks Prowess, Prof in Oral(male) and oral(female)
Benefit: Usable x per sexual encounter, allows, blah blah...

If that is the way it works, I love it! Now, do they purchase these new "sexual abilites" or do they just gain access to them by getting certain proficiencies?



> What do you think ?




Great Idea Gez! I really really like it  Let's see what Death by Surfeit thinks too.


----------



## Gez

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Just in case I'm missing the point (which I often do, ) *



This happens to everyone.




			
				VVrayven said:
			
		

> *It would work something like this:?
> 
> A character could have Prowess, 4 ranks (oral(male), position A, submission, oral(female)).
> 
> That would qualify them for
> 
> Improved Oral Sex Trick:
> Prereqs: 3 ranks Prowess, Prof in Oral(male) and oral(female)
> Benefit: Usable x per sexual encounter, allows, blah blah...*




Yes, although I didn't thought of keying the frequency of use to individual "effects" but to the skill ranks, in the same way bardic music is keyed to level.

The various "Focus" would becomes mere proficiencies, while stuff like "Everywhere at once" or "Instant recovery" would become "effects".



			
				VVrayven said:
			
		

> *If that is the way it works, I love it! Now, do they purchase these new "sexual abilites" or do they just gain access to them by getting certain proficiencies?*




If we make them works like bardic music, you won't have to buy them specifically (although you may have to buy the prerequisite). If you met the required ranks and proficiencies, you get it.

In a way, it's also like martial art style in OA (fulfilling the requirements in term of skills, feats, and BAB give special bonus or maneuvers). Martial art style were presented as being the feat equivalent of synergy bonus for skills.

So, here we have our "erotic arts style" ! 



			
				VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Great Idea Gez! I really really like it  Let's see what Death by Surfeit thinks too. *




As my forum friend Upper Krust says, "I appreciate the love, mate"


----------



## VVrayven

> As my forum friend Upper Krust says, "I appreciate the love, mate"




Always happy to give it ::blows kiss:: To those who deserve it anyway. And you do for this idea. 

I think I'm getting it now. And now I really really really like this idea. Sorry if I was confused at first, Gez. 

So, it would be something like Sex Arts are usable once per (sexual encounter, day, ??) per rank that is possessed in Sexual Prowess.

Neat.

Okay, and like perform, we would have a list of proficiences: Oral(male), Oral(female), Sodomy, Specific Position, Toys, Masturbation(male), Masturbation(female), Bondage, Submission, Domination, etc...

Then there is a list of "Sex Arts" that are "avalible" after a person meets a certain rank and certain proficiences. Then they can use these and they take up a use of sex arts. Neat!

And I still have heard no comments on my idea for Kinks: (Fetishes/Frets, Philias/Phobias) idea. 

Oh well. Good job Gez. We are going to need to revise the Sex Tricks into Sex Arts now, we'll need more and a lot of refinement if this is going to be the direction we take. 



> So, here we have our "erotic arts style" !



I like it! 

Well, that's my 2 cents for the night. ::


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Knock back in a backward, internet-less corner for a few days, and everyone ups the ante. Tch.

Kidding, kidding! Everyone’s had an awful lot of brilliant ideas and a lot of things to contribute - just what we need! Looking over everything that’s been said and done, I think I’ll clarify each area of concern before chipping in my own thoughts, concerns, and recommendations. Here we go:

1. The Prowess Skill
Prowess is treated as if it was a Perform skill; each rank gives an additional point of bonus to the roll, and an extra ‘proficiency’ or area in which the roll can be made. Current suggestions for proficiencies include conventional (by position), oral (by gender), masturbation (by gender), sodomy, toys, submission, domination and bondage. When making a generalised (Soft Focus) check, roll at your highest bonus (on the assumption your are going to be applying your area of expertise)

_There aren’t a great deal of different proficiencies, but this is fine: a given adventurer becomes really rather good with a handful of ranks, and needn’t go beyonds this (they probably have better places to put their skill ranks in, anyway), unless they are a sexual-orientated character, in which case they probably want them! As far as I can tell, this area needs no more tuning beyonds a write-up (volunteers, anyone?) of the Prowess skill._

2. Feats
Sexual feats are still in existence, and mostly give bonuses to areas outside conventional application of the Prowess skill by dropping Arousal penalties, bolstering spellcasting, distracting enemies, etc. Those feats that are purely sexual in nature have profound effect, dropping key modifiers to the mechanics (eg. affecting Size Matters, decreasing penalty for multiple partners, and so on).

_Again clear in my view. The key concern here is balance - we should weight it so that a character in a non-sexual campaign would find them of little use, a character in a campaign with sexual elements would consider them alongside conventional feats, and a strongly sexualised character would take little else. All feats should fit in not only with D&D flavour, but also the style of feats used in D&D. Hence, I would advise making them clear, basic, and involving no mechanics of their own beyonds a possible skill check, attack roll or save._

3. Tricks (Now ‘Carnal Arts’)
The current consensus is that Carnal Arts are not paid for, instead being available whenever a person meets a given prerequisite in terms of skill ranks and feats, at which point a person is automatically able to perform them. Some may be limited by times per day or condition (eg. may not be Fatigued or Exhausted), and some may have negative side-effects (eg. Sexual Fatigue being incurred).

_Now this, in my opinion, is the area we have to be most careful in. The NUCK suffered from being to unwieldy in terms of mechanics due to an inundation of Tricks - a given person could take a good minute just working out which modifiers to apply. To make these clearer, we should limit the number and application of Arts and bolster the clarity until a given character knows exactly what each do and when they can be used (at least to the degree that a fighter knows her feat and maneouver mechanics and a wizard knows his spell effects).

If they are being used in conjunction with Feats, we should lay down which mechanical role is being played by each category - some effects give straight bonuses, some let you get things done outside conventional rules, some change conventional rules, etc. etc. We must decide how the two correlate._

To finish with, a little personal idea: perhaps each of the Carnal Arts requires a feat to unlock, featuring multiple techniques in each? This would limit how many things a given person to do, adding specialisation and, by extension, flavour to a given character through their choices. See the example below for one way this could be manifested:

ART OF THE HALFLING HARLOT (Carnal Art)
You are familiar with the techniques of the Halfling Harlot, as passed down within the trade of smaller prostitutes through the ages.
Prerequisite: Con 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the techniques of the Halfling Harlot a number of times equal to your Constitution modifer before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the techniques of the Halfling Harlot.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the techniques an additional nmber of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.

ART OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask.

The following techniques may be used a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier for each time you take the related feat. After this, each application counts as a round spent Climaxed for the purposes of working out Sexual Fatigue.

Application of a Carnal Art technique is treated as a free action, and multiple techniques may be used in a round with no penalty, although all count against a users daily usage.

Accomodating - Requires 3 ranks of Prowess
Borne of steely nerve and avid willpower, Accomodating allows a given character to automatically succeed at the Fortitude save incurred from the Size Matters rules to reduce damage taken.
Muscle Relaxation - Requires 6 ranks of Prowess
By relaxing the muscles in a given orifice, using this technique allows the character to increase the size category of any of their orifices by one half. When a character gains 12 ranks in Sexual Prowess, they may increase the size by one whole category.
Selfless Lover - Requires 6 ranks of Prowess
In a situation where both partners are making Prowess checks against each other, a character using this technique may receive a bonus of up to +5 to their roll, imposing an equal penalty on their partner’s check.
Feign Pain - Requires 9 ranks of Prowess
The character has a knack for acting - when the character receives damage during sexual activity, treat the damage incurred as if it was the maximum possible that could be incurred for the purposes of partners with the Sadism fetish; use the maximum value of a damage roll, treat Fortitude saves as failed and so on, regardless of how much is actually dealt.
Induce Sadism - Requires 15 ranks of Prowess
The moans and screams of the character arouses the sadist in anyone - all partners and onlookers (!) gain the Sadism fetish whilst this technique is being used.

What do you think?

Death By Surfeit


----------



## Gez

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *To finish with, a little personal idea: perhaps each of the Carnal Arts requires a feat to unlock, featuring multiple techniques in each? *




As I said, if we mirror the way the martial arts style works, we _may_ use feat prerequisites, but that isn't however an obligation. Some simple arts may very well don't require special feats.

I would like that, if we use feat prerequisites for some arts, then these feats should not necessarily be special sexual feats. Some general purposes feats would be totally appropriated in this context.

For example, what about these prerequisites for the way of the halfling harlot: _Con 13, Sexual Prowess 3 ranks or more, either Toughness or Endurance, and Iron Will_ ?


----------



## VVrayven

Well DbS (and Gez), you again impress me with your ability to sum up and rewrite. I love all your concepts and the idea of having Caral Art forms. We will need a master list of "sex tricks" from which to construct each of these Carnal Art Forms and their entry feat. The Prereqs for these Carnal Art forms can be anything from other Carnal Arts Feats, to other feats, to ranks in sexual prowess, to ability scores, to specific prof in sexual prowess, to a specific kink, or to specific sex tricks granted by a previous Carnal Art. I think we will need at the minimum 5-10 Carnal Art forms for the book, with provisions on how to make new ones. I'd perfer about 15 in the book total. 

As for the sexual prowess skill... I don't think anyone with 25 ranks will have a problem selected new proficienes. Here is my list of the seperate prof. for sexual prowess:

Conventional (Matrimonial, Riding, Frontal, Inverted, Half-Facing, X, Standing, Rear, Headdown, Negresse, etc..), Exotic (by exotic position), Oral (by gender), Masturbation (by gender), Sodomy, Toys, Submission, Domination, and Bondage (simple, hanging, inverted, etc...).

As for a master list of sex tricks... We can forget about balancing them here because they won't be freely picked, they will only be a part of a Carnal Art as dictated by a Feat. The balancing will come in by selecting a group of Sex Tricks to become a Carnal Art. Here is what I have so far:

Sexual Tricks

Adaptive Lover - No penalty with specific type of creature.

Coordinated Lover - No penalty to an additional lover (scales with SP).

Creative Lover - 1.5 X INT Mod when using.

Delay Orgasm - Bonus to your Fort save vs pleasure.

Dexterous Lover - 1.5 X DEX Mod when using.

Disease Resistance - Resistant to STDs.

Easy to Read - Give partner bonus to their Prowess checks.

Enduring Lover - Increase your CON Mod by one for sexual purposes (scales with SP).

Forceful Lover - 2.0 X STR Mod when using.

Greedy Lover - Subtract your prowess and add it to partners (up to +/-5).

Instant Withdrawal - Bonus to birth control.

Intense Lover - Force willing partner to fail their Fort save on a DC 20.

Intuitive Lover - 1.5 X WIS Mod when using.

Inventive Lover - 2.0 X INT Mod when using.

Masochism - Add subdual damage to SP check.

Accomodating - Auto Fort save when "Size Matters".

Muscle Relaxation (oral,anal,vaginal) - Allows larger objects.

Muscular Control (oral,anal) - Bonus when being penetrated.

Powerful Lover - 1.5 X STR Mod when using.

Quick Recovery - Less time in down state.

Responsive - Bonus to partner's Prowess check.

Sadism - Add subdual to prowess checks.

Selfless Lover - Subtract partners prowess and add it to yours (up to +/-5).

Sexual Combination - Use two ability scores.

Sexual Expertise - Subtract Prowess add as penalty to their fort save.

Smooth Lover - 1.5 X CHA Mod when using.

Spiritual Lover - 2.0 X WIS Mod when using.

Stunning Pleasure - Stunned on Peaked, no prowess roles.

Talk Dirty - Bonus to using other skills to gain arousal.

Tantric Lore - Bonus to Fort save against pleasure.

Teasing Lover - Partner instantly makes their Fort save on DC 20.

Wild Lover - 2.0 X DEX Mod when using.

Extra Mile - Double time to Fatigue.

Fit Lover - 1.5 X CON Mod when using.

Conditioned Lover - 2.0 X CON Mod when using.

So before we start rampantly making Carnal Arts packages. We need to decide on if this is what we are doing and then make this master list somewhat concrete, add more to it, assess some basic ranks, decide which ones should be used without the feat, and devise how we make a Carnal Art form. 

Just let me know where to burn my energy and I'll go for it. 

Edit: Force Pleasure and Force Victim have been removed from my compilation of the previous threads due to PC and sensitivty issues. If we want to discuss this we can. Personally I'm good either way.


----------



## Kahuna Burger

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> Force Pleasure - Drop Rape Bonus by half.
> 
> Force Victim - Cause Horny Status while peaked.
> *




OK, I like the idea in theory of sex rules for D&D and I'm not prudish about discussing them, however...

the tone of this thread has been to basically introduce rules for rape, and moreso rape that the victim will like. Using the current system, it is aparently reasonable for a "really good lover" to violently rape a target into submission, love, even 'thrall' because they're just so good.

This isn't just disgusting or misogynistic, its outside of reality (and most fantasy other than henti and bond flicks). 

In the interest of constructive criticism (and because it would be nice to have a mature suplement as long as it shows some maturity) I would recomend the following changes -

Distinguish between unwilling as "I have a headache, I need to get this work done, I'd feel bad about cheating" from a condition in which a person does not under any circumstances wish to have sex with someone else. Grey areas are possible obviously, but the current one size fits all is all wrong.

If a person is raped, reaction modifiers are switched from the normal direction. Some rape victims do have orgasms, it does not cause them to like their attacker. 

Having any of the above feats (unless the definition of unwilling is changed on some) strongly effects allignment. 

I suppose I could just wait till playtesting and see what happens when a male character is gang raped by the orc warband and then told "and now you're charmed by them", but...

I imagine I could be accused of politicising this thread. The political implications are already there, I just want them out in the open.

Kahuna burger


----------



## VVrayven

Oh dear. It seems we have hit a sensitive spot. I don't infere or agree with any forced action (I want that out in the open right now). I included those two becuase they are mentioned in the original threads and I was trying to make a complete write up.

If everyone wants to make a soft guide that doesn't include any darker aspects, I will gladly drop all NC material and suggestions from now on and fight for that angle. (I believe we should keep the Unwilling status condition regardless.)



> the tone of this thread has been to basically introduce rules for rape, and moreso rape that the victim will like.




This is totally not true. I'd hate to think that you came to this conclusion by reading all of our discussion and ideas.  If anything we have been concerned with the mechanical rules and nothing else. And again, if everyone else believes the guide should not even approach NC, I am all for it.

Kahuna Burger: I honestly wasn't trying to touch a nerve and I'm sorry if I sound defensive but I am very serious on this. Rape is a very horrible act. This will always be my opinion and if you wish to discuss it more with me, my email address is open.

Please let's not derail the mechanics and guide development now by making this into something that it isn't.

::hugs to all::


----------



## Gez

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Muscle Relaxation (oral,anal,vaginal) - Allows larger objects.
> 
> Muscular Control (oral,anal) - Bonus when being penetrated.
> *




Why not vaginal specialty for the latter ?

Here's some more sex tricks I had proposed a while ago.

Insatiable Lover - 'never have enough', bonus to last longer

Lover Focus - Bonus with a someone you know really very well


Psychic Link 1 & Psychic Link 2 - psionic sex tricks, like there are psionics skills; the former let you project your feelings to your partner, and the latter (that required the first) allowed you to feel your partner's sensations as well.

Versatile Lover - basically a synergy bonus if you knew enough different tricks.


----------



## Kahuna Burger

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Oh dear. It seems we have hit a sensitive spot. *





lets not make this personal, ok? 



> *If everyone wants to make a soft guide that doesn't include any darker aspects, I will gladly drop all NC material and suggestions from now on and fight for that angle. (I believe we should keep the Unwilling status condition regardless.)*





there's nothing wrong with 'darker aspects' but the current mechanic for dealing with them is just wrong. The unwilling status needs to be split into at least two statuses - unenthusiastic perhaps to indicate a potentially willing lover who is 'not in the mood' vs unwilling which needs a major rewrite.



> *This is totally not true. I'd hate to think that you came to this conclusion by reading all of our discussion and ideas.  If anything we have been concerned with the mechanical rules and nothing else. And again, if everyone else believes the guide should not even approach NC, I am all for it.
> 
> Kahuna Burger: I honestly wasn't trying to touch a nerve and I'm sorry if I sound defensive but I am very serious on this. Rape is a very horrible act. This will always be my opinion and if you wish to discuss it more with me, my email address is open.*





again, this has nothign to do with nerves, except insofar as I'm willing to bring this sort of thing front and center. It seems that you haven't really looked at what some of your feats and charts are really saying, and I'd much rather you did that and kept the NC as a realistic and non-creepy part of the game, than 'sanitize' it and let individual DMs be creepy on their own.

for one thing, if NC is part of the core rules, this allows a section on 'vile defenses' which I would want to work on. much better than campaigns where 'mature' content is thrown in without allowing the characters to be realisticly prepared for it.



> *Please let's not derail the mechanics and guide development now by making this into something that it isn't.
> *




This is all about mechanics and facing up to what they are. Let me spell the problem with the core mechanics out. A 10th level rogue with maxed out arrousal in a hard focus game sees a second level commoner he wants. The commoner absolutely does not want him for any combination of reasons. She is declared 'unwilling' and as a low level character gets a small bonus to her miniscule will save. After a couple of subdual sneak attacks and use rope checks, said rogue rapes her. He has the Force Pleasure feat, a couple of other "enhancements" and gloves of dex that he leaves on for the event. The fact that he is raping her is counted only as a small bonus to an opposed check and he rolls very well. By the mechanics which we have now, she has had a

Heavenly Experience - Things were done in the bedroom that are the stuff of legends and ribald pornographic etchings! The gods and goddesses of lust would be proud of you. In time, you may even draw their notice and be whisked away to visit them! +5 bonus to Charisma-related checks when dealing with this person for the next 1d4 weeks. In addition, your lover will be charmed (as the spell) for 2d8 days.

This is not a sidetrack, this is the mechanics as currently written. I would recomend fixing them over getting rid of the issue entirely, but leaving them as they are is a serious problem, not for me for any personal reasons but objectivly as the results. 

Fixing them would take a very short period of time and would do very little to the core mechanics, but it needs to be adressed in the core mechanics (or eliminated from them and included as a side bar that makes it clear that the core rules cannot be applied to an unwilling character.)

Kahuna Burger


----------



## VVrayven

> lets not make this personal, ok?




I wasn't trying to. It's just the way I talk. Sorry If I mislead you. 

When we made skills like heavenly exp, and the like, the idea wasn't to apply them to NC situations. I put in the Unwilling status specifically because I wanted the DMs to be apply to make NC as real or unreal as they wished. That's why the resistance bonus is variable.

I mean, looking through core d20, you can look at spells like charm person and domination and the like and see very wicked uses for them in a sexual context. People will always be able to bend stuff around. I intended Heavenly Exp to be just the last step on ladder, useful for the rouge who really did something wonderful for the princess last night.

I've removed the two "sex tricks" that seemed to encourage this type of thing.

Would it not be safe to assume that if the Unwilling bonus was set at 50 or even 100 (even 200) that not even a person with 30 ranks in Prowess wouldn't be able to do much? Perhaps the definition in the Unwilling status for that variable modifier needs to be clearer?

Edit: Ah! I see that little bit I put in there about the 1-20+ has been changed. It just got lost in the rewrite I'm sure. Simple mistake. We'll just at a sentence like: "I bonus from 1 to 20 (or as high as 100 or 200 for realistic settings)". Does that work?

And if you have any ideas just post your rules modifications. We like input from all people.  Thanks for bringing this issue to the forefront, as I knew we would have to discuss it sooner or later.

Does anyone else that has been here longer have any ideas on this? Has it been discussed before? I'm feeling awfully like the newbie butting her head in again... 

Gez: Insatiable Lover, Psychic Link 1 & Psychic Link 2, Versatile Lover. I like all of those. I'll add them to my growing list. 

As for Lover Focus, it would be tough to add this 'Sex Trick' to a Carnal Art's package? Or maybe not? Any ideas?


----------



## Gez

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *As for Lover Focus, it would be tough to add this 'Sex Trick' to a Carnal Art's package? Or maybe not? Any ideas? *




This also pose the problem of a minimum size for package ? One effect ? Two ? Three ? Ten ?

I saw the prerequisite of this trick to be one year of deep relationship with someone. (Original version is on page 5 of the other thread, or more precisely here (I like toying with the URL line).)


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Ladies and gentlemen, we have the dubious privilege of enjoying our very first ethical debate. I will drop any guise of being an impartial moderator or arbitrator, and merely put across the stance I feel is closest to my feelings as a person and my duty as a conceptual editor of the guide.

Nobody doubts the immorality of NC situations, and everyone is entitled to raise concerns in that area. As editors of a guide designed to explicit specifications, it seemed likely that the issue be brought up; nevertheless it should not detract from the building of the guide as a whole.

First of all I would like to make it clear that the Guide was not intended to portray NC situations as in any way acceptable, good or whatever you have it. Within the scope of any rules set it is possible to manipulate the game mechanics into morally ‘wrong’ situations. The situation Kahuna suggested is an extreme case scenario (using, it must be said, rules that have since been replaced) that does not give a fair representation of the overall situation. Indeed, it is not even a feasible occurence: a -10 techniquue penalty (arousal from anal penetration?) to Prowess with a +10 (using an average value) unwilling and most likely a +10 sexuality bonus to resisting Fortitude saves makes any kind of effect extremely unlikely indeed. On a conceptual level, a 10th-level fighter is equally (in fact, much more) capable of walking up and slaughtering a passing peasant, and has many feats making the task easier - regardless, core D&D rules are not considered immoral.

Furthermore, an emphasis must be placed that roleplaying games are essentially (SPOILER ALERT!) _make-believe_. A gaming group that decides to kick back and play a party of adventurers that are the scourge of the free world are not evil - some would even say that it is the hallmark of a good roleplayer to be able to decline your real-world beliefs and immerse yourself transiently in the role of the character.

I personally am loathe to make value judgements or to impose censorship on thoughts or ideas. The core mechanics and, I should hope, the completed Guide do not seek to make any moral decisions - the issue of NC situations has been brought up, catered for but essentially left to the group’s own judgement. The material posted, which was nothing more than an agglomeration of previously written text, does not ‘recommend’ anything - should it be implemented, it is the decision of the group alone whether or not to use it, and nobody else’s concern.

We could indeed choose to simply not address the issue, but there is little reason to pursue this: the situation is likely to come up (after all, we are effectively codifying erotic fantasy fiction where, in my experience, it tends to happen) and readers will be confused as to why we didn’t address it. If things were, indeed, too horrific to mention, the Holocaust would doubtless be deleted from history books.

Kahuna, your thoughts will be considered, but nevertheless I am apprehensive toward the concept that therein lies the answer: beyonds a little sensationalism (does the fact it was a male rape make it any worse?) the only message I am getting is that you would like to see the material included, indeed that you would like to do it yourself, but having rebranded it as ‘Vile’. I do not see how a changed monicker adds to the integrity of the work.

Sorry if this comes across as a little harsh, Kahuna, but your post came across as an attack on us for merely discussing material; if your interest was indeed constructive criticism, would you please avoid taking such a aggressive, sarcastic and condescending standpoint. I, for one, resent being bullied into sacrificing avenues of thought in order to accomodate your personal qualms.

I hope the rest of the editorial team sides with me on this issue; I feel that it is best that we value creativity over self-censorship and would like to see the guide emerge as we should wish it to. Our position would, perhaps, be a little more justified if we had a brief writeup on the matter and how we’ve addressed it, a task I am more than willing to work on when the guide is approaching its final stages. Indeed, one already exists in the NUCK, but is a little to opinionated for my tastes.

It is my earnest hope that we can continue work unfettered by these problems: everyone has worked their best to produce a guide that, although embryonic, shows great potential that should stand up to criticism. Keep all of your contributions coming; everything posted so far has been of immeasurate value and of the best standard I could have hoped for. Ever onward!

Death By Surfeit

NB: I was going to write up my opinions on sexual arts, their relation to feats and suchlike, but I felt this matter needed to be resolved first. I will make said post sometime in the next few days - keep things coming in the meantime!


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## VVrayven

> It is my earnest hope that we can continue work unfettered by these problems: everyone has worked their best to produce a guide that, although embryonic, shows great potential that should stand up to criticism. Keep all of your contributions coming; everything posted so far has been of immeasurate value and of the best standard I could have hoped for. Ever onward!




Well said, DbS.  Again you are far more eloquent on the issue than I could ever be.

I look forward to your opinions. In the mean time I'm still working on compiling my master list of "sex tricks". Keep posting ideas! 



> This also pose the problem of a minimum size for package ? One effect ? Two ? Three ? Ten ?




Hmmm. I'd say 5-10. But that's just me. I like your Lover Focus and maybe it can be a part of one Carnal Art like "Specific Lover"? I don't know... But it's still a good idea.


----------



## Kahuna Burger

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *On a conceptual level, a 10th-level fighter is equally (in fact, much more) capable of walking up and slaughtering a passing peasant, and has many feats making the task easier - regardless, core D&D rules are not considered immoral.*





And yet, were such an act to give him a positive reaction modifier with said peasants family, it would be considered... unrealistic? 



> *Furthermore, an emphasis must be placed that roleplaying games are essentially (SPOILER ALERT!) make-believe. *





and here you make it clear how little respect you have for anyone who disagrees with you. I have brought up a mechanical issue. I have made it clear that the current mechanics are neither realistic, nor mature. your response is the old "its only a game, stop thinking so hard honey" bs? nice.



> *
> Kahuna, your thoughts will be considered, but nevertheless I am apprehensive toward the concept that therein lies the answer: beyonds a little sensationalism (does the fact it was a male rape make it any worse?) the only message I am getting is that you would like to see the material included, indeed that you would like to do it yourself, but having rebranded it as ‘Vile’. I do not see how a changed monicker adds to the integrity of the work.
> 
> Sorry if this comes across as a little harsh, Kahuna, but your post came across as an attack on us for merely discussing material; if your interest was indeed constructive criticism, would you please avoid taking such a aggressive, sarcastic and condescending standpoint. I, for one, resent being bullied into sacrificing avenues of thought in order to accomodate your personal qualms.*





honestly it sounds like you are way too defensive to actually listen to anything that I have said. Thats very sad, and if you are bound and determind to put out a guide with positive modifiers for a successful rape because a pointed out flaw counts as 'bullying', there's certainly nothing I can do about it. W seemed to actually look at the setup and notice the unrealistic results. I hope some needed changes can sneak past your defensivness.



> *It is my earnest hope that we can continue work unfettered by these problems: everyone has worked their best to produce a guide that, although embryonic, shows great potential that should stand up to criticism. Keep all of your contributions coming*




this pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Do you honestly wish to be unfettered by mature and realistic examination of your work? Do you want to 'stand up to' criticism, steadfastly ignoring any useful content? thats your right, but it will make a substandard product. Too bad.

-kahuna burger


----------



## Gez

May you please stop the attacks and bickering ?

There are things that need to be revised and polished, of course. Should I remind anyone that, if we've got two threads here, that's actually because all we've got is merely a draft ?

So, OK, there's a problem with some of the rules as they are written now (NC ambiguity). That problem has been pointed out and explained. It'll get adressed. No need to start a flamewar. Thanks.


----------



## Bastoche

Instead of purely making critics, why don't you suggest something, a correction to what was already mentionned. THAT would be constructive. Thank you.


----------



## VVrayven

Kahuna: We are looking at the issues. You have just posted an entire response that does not have one bit of constructive thought in it. I have no objection to anyone posting here as long as they contribute. Please don't just start throwing out comments that will only spark more flames.



> honestly it sounds like you are way too defensive to actually listen to anything that I have said.




He is on the defensive (and so are we all) because you made the following comment: 



> the tone of this thread has been to basically introduce rules for rape, and moreso rape that the victim will like.




Implying that everone here is only concerned with making rules for rape and that we fully support it. This was an attack and a blatant one at that. It is also incorrect. Our purpose here has been nothing of the kind.

We've all stated that we would be willing to listen to your ideas (should you post any revisional change... You've mentioned a split in the Unwilling Status but haven't gone into your reasoning or any mechanics).



> this pretty much says it all, doesn't it? Do you honestly wish to be unfettered by mature and realistic examination of your work? Do you want to 'stand up to' criticism, steadfastly ignoring any useful content? thats your right, but it will make a substandard product. Too bad.




He was saying he hopes everyone will still be able to contribute, we will still be able to modify the guide to respond to all issues, and that progress will still be made. He wasn't saying we should ignore the issue. We are willing to listen to you, all we ask is that you tone down your comments. Some of us (particularly me) don't respond well to an attack in which we are told we endorse rape.

If you want to respond. Respond to this paragraph. This is the one that matters to the ideas at hand. I have removed the NC tricks until they can be discussed. And I have mentioned that the Unwilling modifier was originially intended to be scalable for whatever ammount of realism the DM wished. Does this not settle your concerns? If it does not, would a sidebar for the Unwilling status help? Would you care to write one? DbS even said that such a write-up on this issue would be done for this version. Perhaps you would care to help us? 

We are trying to listen. If you drop your sarcasim and are willing to bring in ideas in a friendly manner we will listen.

Thanks Bastoche, Gez, and DbS for approaching the situation in a calm and reasonable manner. Sorry, if I lost it there for a while.  I've got a new idea or two I'll post today or tomorrow.


----------



## Kahuna Burger

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *Instead of purely making critics, why don't you suggest something, a correction to what was already mentionned. THAT would be constructive. Thank you. *




hmmm.... suggesting a correction.. like 

"In the interest of constructive criticism (and because it would be nice to have a mature suplement as long as it shows some maturity) I would recomend the following changes -

Distinguish between unwilling as "I have a headache, I need to get this work done, I'd feel bad about cheating" from a condition in which a person does not under any circumstances wish to have sex with someone else. Grey areas are possible obviously, but the current one size fits all is all wrong.

If a person is raped, reaction modifiers are switched from the normal direction. Some rape victims do have orgasms, it does not cause them to like their attacker. 

Having any of the above feats (unless the definition of unwilling is changed on some) strongly effects allignment."


hmmm... thats what I said in the very first post I made to this thread.

I'm going to try to breifly throw off my long years of USENET conditioning here. Reading through the thread thus far all at once and with little background on the mechanics gave me a very different perscpective than those working on this thread. Particularly, the combination of arousal checks, reaction modifiers, statuses and feats did at that time (I don't know what changes W has incorporated) make a system where someone who was really 'good in bed' could rape someone and they would like it so much they would forget they weren't willing and have a positive reaction to the rapist. I spelled the way this worked out in my second post. 

Considering how fundementally offensive this idea is, I did not pussy foot around it. However, I also tried not to outright accuse the thread authors of having that goal in mind (tone was apparently not the right word, but I'm sure 'implication' wouldn't have been taken any better, and my point was that this was the underlying system, not spelled out). From W's previous responses (which I was happy with until another poster started in) it seems that this mechanic is an accident of several ideas worked and reworked and not examined as a whole.

for a more concrete suggestion, extrapolated and needing lots of work,

Mental conditions the same until unwilling.

Unenthusiastic - The character is disinterested in sex at this time, but potentially interested in the proposed partner. An unenthusiastic character cannot initiate sex or make an arousal check under normal circumstances. When trying to arouse an unenthusiastic character, you are at a -5 penalty, and may be penalized for use of counterproductive feats (such as powerful lover). Choice of which stat to use for the arousal check is also significant as use of str or con will have negitive modifiers; dex, int and cha will add no modifier; and wis will be positive.

Unwilling - The character is not a willing participant in sex. Any attempt at sexual activity with an unwilling partner is an act of rape and will result in personal and societal reaction modifiers as appropriate to the setting and individual character. The character cannot be aroused by the standard definitions, though a result on the arousal check chart can be considered to represent the intensity of the expereince and result in equivelent negitive modifiers to reaction checks.

Traumatised - The character is strongly emotionally distressed by the idea of sex due to some factor (experiencing or witnessing a rape, extremely painful sexual expereinces, *, etc). A traumatised character is likely to be considered unwilling in regards to most potential partners and unenthusiastic at best with those he or she loves or trusts (at the discretion of the person controlling the character). See the Sexual Healing sidebar for additional information on leaving the Traumatised status.

*I was going to list 'catholic' here due to the complaints of friends raised in that religion, but it seemed iffy in terms of offense.

Kahuna Burger


----------



## Bastoche

Now you're talking! I think the distinction between the various "unwillings" are excatly what was needed.

We could consider sidebars for various possible outcome regarding rape allowing as much latitude as possible. For example, the basic rule could be that unwilling characters can never be aroused (and therefore never achieve any other state).

A charmed character for example, although it would technically be a "rape" would not fall in this category.


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## Kahuna Burger

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *
> A charmed character for example, although it would technically be a "rape" would not fall in this category. *




true, though it would be very reasonable for reaction modifiers and attitudes to change radically once the charm effect had worn off and events were reviewed in a normal state of mind.

a victim of the command spell would probably react as someone raped by threat or coercion (rather than pure applied force)

kahuna burger


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## Bastoche

I'd go with a case by case basic. Up to the DM. You could have this similar to the "hangover effect". I don't think it should be automatically treated like that.


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## VVrayven

> hmmm.... suggesting a correction.. like




No need for sarcasim. I think you knew I meant an actually definition. However, you have posted a very well thought out suggestion and explained your reasoning. Thank you. 

Now. Status Conditions are in, my mind, a temporary aspect. Therefore, I believe "sexually tramuatized" should probably be included in the phobia/phillias category and not a status condition. I do like the concept though and think it is an excellent contribution.

The Unenthusiastic condtion I think can also be covered in circumstantial modifiers. We were already well on the road to developing these. I considered adding negative status conditions for each arousal one we had but discarded the idea as too complex. I think a disinterested circumstance penalty should be sufficient. Do you agree?

As for the Unwilling condition, I think the following should suffice to cover ALL angles.

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling. An Unwilling character may not attempt any Prowess checks unless they are solely used to resist sexual activity. The character is considered to automatically succeed any Fortitude or Will save to resist sexual advances and arousal and cannot be aroused by mundane means. If the setting supports an Non-Consensual atmosphere, a bonus (1 to 100 or higher) may be added instead of the automatic success. Becoming horny negates the benefits of being Unwilling. Any attempt at sexual activity with an Unwilling partner is considered an act of rape.

I think that covers the bases. What is your opinion?

Though I have a good sense of humor, I too believe listing "catholic" wouldn't work too well. 



> I'd go with a case by case basic. Up to the DM. You could have this similar to the "hangover effect". I don't think it should be automatically treated like that.




I agree completly.

I'm glad we got back to a conversational atmosphere. Let's try and all play nice and keep it as such.


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Thank you, VVrayven and Gez. In the interests of productivity I will keep a hold on my tetchiness (defensiveness?) for now, bite down and my pride and just get on with mechanics. Indeed, a flame war is in none of our best interests. Thank you, too, for your recommendations Kahuna, it’s nice that you could contribute something to the project.

With the issue having been discussed sufficiently for the time being (revision: add a -5 circumstantial modifier to Prowess checks for a ‘disinterested’ character), I feel it is only good to return to the topic at hand before: namely, the formation of Carnal Arts.

*Drop aggression, all thee who would pass. DROP!*

Good boy. Have a biscuit. 

Whilst I could contribute a lot of material to your exhaustive list of possible tricks/maneouvres/techniques/whatever, VVrayven, I hold a few concerns about the current nature of Carnal Arts that I would like us to be clear about. In a typical manner, the issues are listed below with my own suggestions underneath.

A) SIMPLICITY
This is a key concern from my point of view. Carnal Arts may be intricate and rather convoluted, and players need to know exactly what they can do, what they can work towards, and what to apply in a given situation. Each Carnal Art is essentially a mini-class ability of multiple tweaks and boosts to the system, and as such we should limit their application somewhat in the interest of ease of use.

B) BALANCE
Not the mundane too powerful/too weak kind of balance problems, but making things feel fair. Carnal Arts should be kept in line with the abilities of other characters - to make a tenuous comparison to prestige classes, characters must still level in the class after meeting the prerequisites - by no means should characters get something for nothing out of the deal. In my experience, players would feel a bit miffed if the person next to them gets, say, Adaptive Lover simply because he/she has the additional rank of Prowess needed to qualify for getting it.

To get around this problem, we should add some sort of payoff cost for an Art - a feat taken, Prowess proficiencies (each rank giving a new technique), or whatever. Furthermore, we should cut down on straight bonuses and modifiers when arranging the feats, instead adding flexibility.

C) FEEL
The nature of Carnal Arts is rather dissimilar to the vast majority of D&D mechanics, and whilst this cannot really be helped, it can be integrated more smoothly by making mechanics simple, precise, and in line with the feel, if not the exact system, of D&D.

Now I’ll confess here that I am a supporter of the mechanic I featured in the last post - ie. a feat to unlock, increasing techniques by rank and limited application (too limited, perhaps?) and have been brainstorming six such Carnal Arts, one for each key ability. I’ll put forward my notes on my next post, but I’ve warbled on enough for now.

Speak to you all soon,

Death By Surfeit


----------



## Kahuna Burger

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> Now. Status Conditions are in, my mind, a temporary aspect. Therefore, I believe "sexually tramuatized" should probably be included in the phobia/phillias category and not a status condition. I do like the concept though and think it is an excellent contribution.
> 
> The Unenthusiastic condtion I think can also be covered in circumstantial modifiers. We were already well on the road to developing these. I considered adding negative status conditions for each arousal one we had but discarded the idea as too complex. I think a disinterested circumstance penalty should be sufficient. Do you agree?*





for simplicity sake it would probably be best. However, as a Gear Head when it comes to roleplaying (crunchy bits! yeah!) I tend to extrapolate on things a lot. In this case it is worth pointing out that there are some sexual techniques that 'satisfy' an already horny person but will backfire if you use them to try to warm someone up. Hence my breakdown of unusual results of the stat choices. Its probably best to give some very vauge suggestions and let the DMs and players together decide on a case by case basis whether a particular technique helps or hurts a particular cause.



> *As for the Unwilling condition, I think the following should suffice to cover ALL angles.
> 
> Unwilling
> If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling. An Unwilling character may not attempt any Prowess checks unless they are solely used to resist sexual activity. The character is considered to automatically succeed any Fortitude or Will save to resist sexual advances and arousal and cannot be aroused by mundane means. If the setting supports an Non-Consensual atmosphere, a bonus (1 to 100 or higher) may be added instead of the automatic success. Becoming horny negates the benefits of being Unwilling. Any attempt at sexual activity with an Unwilling partner is considered an act of rape.
> 
> I think that covers the bases. What is your opinion?
> *




My main concern is whether these conditions are based internally or externally. That is to say, if hornyness is an internal response, a person just IS horny. If there's no one around, he's still horny. However unwilling strikes me as a more external condition - a person is unwilling in regards to other people. A person could be horny and unwilling towards a specific other person. Or even very horny and interested in the other person but unwilling for a specific sex act or circumstance. (I'm reminded of the beginning of higher learning where the girl and guy were equally all over each other, but she started trying to fight him off when she realized he wasn't wearing a condom. While a good chunk of the film seemed to be based on the moral ambiguity of judging him on the event, it was clear that she was unwilling and subjectively expereinced it as a rape in spite of being horny and attracted to him.)

OK like I said, I'm a gear head. But other than the concern about physical states automatically countering emotional ones it certainly looks good.

Kahuna Burger


----------



## VVrayven

Yea! I'm so happy all you boys have decided to play nice. ::claps:: 



> Good boy. Have a biscuit.




: pats on head : 



> Whilst I could contribute a lot of material to your exhaustive list of possible tricks/maneouvres/techniques/whatever, VVrayven, I hold a few concerns about the current nature of Carnal Arts that I would like us to be clear about.




Awww... Does that mean you don't like my lists.  They were only meant to be a guide (for us) in making the Carnal Arts, not really part of the guide, really more a "Behind the Curtain" aspect.

A) SIMPLICITY - I believe if we limit their use like you suggest in balance, one character will only have to worry about one or two sets of skills at the most. If they spend all the time and energy into getting more well they deserve the complexity it brings. 



> To get around this problem, we should add some sort of payoff cost for an Art - a feat taken, Prowess proficiencies (each rank giving a new technique), or whatever. Furthermore, we should cut down on straight bonuses and modifiers when arranging the feats, instead adding flexibility.




B) BALANCE - I totally agree.

C) FEEL - Well we could always go with the Bardic Music angle. Perosnally I think this small deviation will be okay. The whole mini-ability angle isn't too far out of line, IMHO.



> Now I’ll confess here that I am a supporter of the mechanic I featured in the last post - ie. a feat to unlock, increasing techniques by rank and limited application (too limited, perhaps?)




I support it too. I think it woks well, is balanced, and is very easy to use. I'd love to see your new ones. I do think we need some kind of guideline for making new Carnal Arts though. Any ideas?



> My main concern is whether these conditions are based internally or externally. That is to say, if hornyness is an internal response, a person just IS horny. If there's no one around, he's still horny. However unwilling strikes me as a more external condition - a person is unwilling in regards to other people.




This is a very excellent point. One I hadn't considered before. Hmmm... Status Conditions don't tend to work like that in 3e, they seem to be all or nothing events. It could be argued that once a character is Unwilling, they aren't really ready for ANY kind of sexual activity. I mean if Partner A is having fun with Partner B and Partner C storms in and tries to rape Partner A... I don't think Partner A is going to be to interested in having fun with Partner B any more either... ? But I agree on the Horny issue, how about this change:

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling. An Unwilling character may not attempt any Prowess checks unless they are solely used to resist sexual activity. The character is considered to automatically succeed any Fortitude or Will save to resist sexual advances and arousal and cannot be aroused by mundane means. If the setting supports an Non-Consensual atmosphere, a bonus (1 to 100 or higher) may be added instead of the automatic success. Becoming *lustful* negates the benefits of being Unwilling. Any attempt at sexual activity with an Unwilling partner is considered an act of rape.

Sound like an okay fix? Any other good ideas. 

Alright, boys. I'm going to take a rest and try and come up with a good guidline system for making Carnal Arts. Maybe something we include in a "Behind the Curtain" section of the guide. Can't wait to hear ideas from all of you.


----------



## Kahuna Burger

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *C) FEEL
> The nature of Carnal Arts is rather dissimilar to the vast majority of D&D mechanics, and whilst this cannot really be helped, it can be integrated more smoothly by making mechanics simple, precise, and in line with the feel, if not the exact system, of D&D.
> 
> Now I’ll confess here that I am a supporter of the mechanic I featured in the last post - ie. a feat to unlock, increasing techniques by rank and limited application (too limited, perhaps?) and have been brainstorming six such Carnal Arts, one for each key ability. *




is it possible to treat sexual proficiencies like weapon proficeincies? (horrible spelling noted). rank them as simple (you do it on instinct) 'martial' seperated into simpler or fancier tiers, and truely exotic kama sutra stuff needing feats?

such as simple sexual proficiencies = all sexually reproducing races are capable of positions a b and c without penalty. all characters are proficient at receptive sex in any simple or tier one sexual act. having the prowress skill 'unlocks' all tier one sexual proficiencies plus one tier two per rank...feats for exotic stuff....

OK, I'm babbling, if anyone knows what I'm trying to say, please tell me.

kahuna burger


----------



## Bastoche

I think it's not a bad idead especially since we will consider a sexual encouter more or less the same (basic) way as combat.


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Kahuna: We do effectively run a ‘proficiency’ mechanism, but not to the degree of complexity you mentioned: anyone can _attempt_ any technique, but ranks in Prowess allow you to apply your Prowess bonus to increasing numbers of areas (hence the ‘Perform-esque’ label). We could indeed go for a more complex system, but it would probably hinder rather than help - we want the GUCK to be a simple extension of D&D rules, not a separate system!

With regards the suitability/unsuitability for given Prowess techniques, this is covered by the technique penalties (see circumstantial modifiers) but essentially left to DM’s judgement - thus a penalty can be applied if trying to get someone Aroused by full congress, or getting someone to Climax with dirty talk.

Oh, and we can resolve the whole Unwilling issue by using our original rules text, but with the addition of words under ‘A Very Social Art’ to the effect of ‘attempting intercourse with an Unwilling or Disinterested partner is considered a Hostile or Unfriendly act respectively; make no positive attitude changes in these circumstances’. Much easier this way!

There is a small issue as to whether Unwilling/Disinterested are ‘non-universal’ conditions: can someone be treated as Disinterested towards someone but not toward someone else (the ‘off-putting’ factor)? Thoughts, anyone?

VVrayven: no need to feel so put down - your compilation is useful indeed, I simply wanted to resolve some conceptual issues before I made my own contributions! I’m glad that there’s some degree of unity over the form that Carnal Arts take, and I will shortly be posting my work on them so far.

Simply put, there is one dependant on each ability score, allowing a certain number of applications each day before incurring Sexual Fatigue. Names are yet to be finalised, but they run along the following lines:

Techniques of Carnal Power (Str) - Power & effect
Tricks of the Trade (Dex) - Deftness & subtlety
Art of the Halfling Harlot (Con) - Resilience & willpower
Stunts of the Improviso (Int) - Adaptability & improvisation
Lore of the Tantric Ancients (Wis) - Self-control & spirituality
Forms of Immaculate Beauty (Cha) - Desirability & sensuality

If anyone has any comments, suggestions or topics they want to bring up, do so! As ever, your contributions are essential to the Guide’s development - we can’t do this without you!

Death By Surfeit


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## Gez

I just want to reminds something about feats: a feat is something that is impossible to do without said feat (unless the feat is merely a bonus, like Iron Will or Weapon Focus). They should be kept for arts that, even with training, most people will never be able to practice. That's why I'm a bit reluctant to keying everything to feats, especially new special-purpose feats rather than broad, general feats.

In other words, what do you thought of my proposition for the halfling harlot ?


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Uhm...

I thought that the point of Carnal Arts would be that they were special techniques that only the sufficiently skilled (ie. possessed of Prowess/feats combo) people could attempt. Whatever else you wished to do, and what was available to the masses, would be accomodated in the core mechanics (which are very loosely interpreted anyhow); however, there seems to be some indecision on this point - would anyone like to clarify the area?

If not, taking sides will do for now...

 

Death By Surfeit


----------



## Gez

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Uhm...
> 
> I thought that the point of Carnal Arts would be that they were special techniques that only the sufficiently skilled (ie. possessed of Prowess/feats combo) people could attempt. *




Yes.

We're just slightly disagreeing over the minimum amount of skill required. I think some of the marital arts (sorry, I can't resist bad puns) just would not deserve a dedicated feat; and also that some existing skill synergies or general feats may be ad hoc prerequisites.

If we look at the martial arts in OA, they have several prerequisites, but none of them is a "for prerequisite only" feat, all have their own effects. That's why I'm stylistically opposed on feats whose only purpose would be to unlock access to carnal arts. If we have to stray from core mechanics (and we have too, it would not be possible otherwise IMO), we should rather stray in the same direction as already existing additional material.


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## Sorn

Oh boy...  Wow... I missed a lot. I didn't get my usual reminder emails that new posts had been added, and work has kept me busy enough where I didn't have time to just hop over here and browse around. 

In any case... a few comments from me...

The NC stuff looks pretty good. (Ok, this sounds wrong). Let me rephrase... the NC mechanics seem sound. There... better. One addition though: since rape is universally considered evil, how about we add an alignment descriptor to the NC sex tricks the same way it is handled for spells. So we would have e.g. Force Pleasure [Evil]. Good (or even Neutral) characters just don't run around learning how to this kind of stuff. Plus, I'd suggest a small sidebar to make our position clear that we are against rape in all forms. 

Sexual Prowess... the mechanics look excellent. Good work all of you! I am definitely in favor of the Carnal Arts idea. However, feat requirements should be kept pretty general (as in "feats that even regular characters might take". If the character doesn't have a sexual focus, they simply won't have enough sex tricks/ranks in Sexual Prowess to qualify. This ensures that only people who really want it will eventually get it. Some "general" feats that come to mind: Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness, Endurance...

I'll try to chime in a little bit more often, work permitting. However, all in all, we are on track and things are getting done. Can't wait to slap everything together and have a printed copy.


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## Death By Surfeit

Konnichi-wa!

I'm back from a visit to Japan, of all places, and I can assure that the sun is indeed still rising over the land there.

With regards the suggestions for carnal arts, your recommendations make a lot of the rules I'd been writing out somewhat redundant, so if you'd like to make your contributions to the topic, feel free.

I still remain in favour of the feat/prowess rank combo method, mostly because although the prerequisite feats may be better as conventional feats, the single-unlock system allows you to get one feat for access to five or six tricks, whereas otherwise you'd have to buy three or four for the same number, making carnal arts fairly scarce amongst lower-level players. It also avoids forcing characters to take feats they otherwise wouldn't want.

Nevertheless I'm willing to adapt to the feelings of the group at large - please post your feedback and suggestions, and we can get this show back on the road.

Thanks,

DbS


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## VVrayven

> I still remain in favour of the feat/prowess rank combo method, mostly because although the prerequisite feats may be better as conventional feats, the single-unlock system allows you to get one feat for access to five or six tricks, whereas otherwise you'd have to buy three or four for the same number, making carnal arts fairly scarce amongst lower-level players. It also avoids forcing characters to take feats they otherwise wouldn't want.




I am fully in favor of this as well. I think there should be ONE basic carnal art accessible without a feat and the rest should require one. Just MHO 

Sorry I've been out of touch. Personal life issues. I should be back around and posting in full monday or so. Maybe we can pump some energy into this slow down then.


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## Sorn

Good idea WRayVen...

One basic Carnal Art and the rest more advanced sounds like a good idea.


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## Asher

Hi folks, here's another person de-lurking to (hopefully) contribute to the effort.  I downloaded the currently available versions of the Guide a little over a month ago and spent some time tweaking things, trying out rules variations, running through encounter scenarios, and mulling over what seemed right and what didn't.

At first I set about expanding the catalog of Sex Tricks, which IMO are one of the highlights of the system: they permit a high level of personalization and lots of variety among characters.  However, I soon identified two problems:

* the Tricks catalog was disorganized and tilted heavily in favor of certain ability scores over others
* few Tricks, if any, were available to persons of average ability

So, I started over with a different approach.  In my new system, Tricks are handled in a manner similar to the acquisition of spells.  A spellcaster has two requisites to learn/cast a spell: she must be of a sufficient class level, and her relevant ability score must be at least 10 + spell level.

Likewise, each Trick in my system has a "level"; this number forms the basis of two requirements.  The Trick level is both the number of ranks in SP and the number of points above 10 in the relevant ability score required to learn the Trick.  This yields the happy result of providing low-level, simple Tricks to persons with modest ability scores of 11 (or 13!), and it organizes the Tricks into lists categorized by ability score (similar to Psionics).

Here's the list of Tricks I've produced so far.  Some are directly from the Guide, some have familiar names but are changed in substance, and some are original.

STRENGTH
Lvl  Tricks
1    Musc. Control (+1 SP when penetrated)
1      Kegel Flex (bring self from Peaked to Aroused w/ successful Fort save at DC 10)
2    Intense Lvr (add STR mod to SP when engaged in strenuous physical intercourse)
3    Display Physique (add 1/2 STR mod to SP when partner can see your body)
4    Support Partner (maintain difficult strength-based sexual position w/o requiring STR check for # of rounds equal to SP ranks)
5    Stunning Pleasure (per Guide)

DEXTERITY
Lvl  Tricks
1    Foreplay (+1 SP when arousing partner w/ foreplay; this does not bring partner to Peaked state)
1      Pinch (pinch your own or your partner's phallus firmly at the base to bring the recipient from Peaked to Aroused state w/ a successful Fort save at DC 10)
2    Striptease (double your CHA mod bonus to SP when arousing partner w/ a striptease; this does not bring partner to Peaked state)
2      Sexual Focus tricks (per Guide)
3    Bondage Focus (per Guide)
3      Maw/Orifice Stuffing (per Guide)
3      Sexual Combination (make Dex check at DC 12 to apply SP bonuses from two Focus Tricks used simultaneously)
4    Instant Withdrawal (per Guide)
4      Coordinated Lvr (per Guide)
5    Everywhere at Once (make DEX check at DC 14 to apply SP bonuses from 3 or more Focus Tricks used simultaneously)
5      Contortionist (maintain difficult dexterity-based sexual position w/o requiring DEX check for # of rounds equal to SP ranks)

CONSTITUTION
Lvl  Tricks
1    Enduring Lvr (per Guide)
1      Delay Orgasm (per Guide)
2    Resist Fatigue (double CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist Fatigue; 1.5 CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist Exhaustion)
3    Resist Pain (resist subdual dmg equal to CON mod each round)
3      Resist Disease (double your CON mod bonus to Fort saves to resist STD's)
4    Tireless (+3 to Arousal check; stacks with Enduring Lvr)
4      Quick Recovery (per Guide, but add CON mod to SP check)
5    Male Multiple Orgasms (have successive orgasms equal to CON mod before experiencing normal post-climax state)

INTELLIGENCE
Lvl  Tricks
1    Pinch (see DEX-based Tricks)
1      Envision Better Lover (negate partner's SP penalties from appearance, voice, odor, body size/shape/texture, by imagining a more desirable lover.  With successful Concentration check (DC 10) each round, negate penalty points equal to your INT mod +1)
2    Quick Study (if SP check result is >=15 and partner fails Arousal check, gain +1 to SP whenever using the same technique for duration of encounter)
3    Sexual Expertise (per Guide)
4    Teasing Lvr (per Guide)
5    Tantric Lore (add INT mod to Arousal checks)
5      Impressive Repertoire (add 1/2 INT mod to SP check when using any Focus Trick)

WISDOM
Lvl  Tricks
1    Delay Orgasm (per Guide)
1      Pace Yourself (+2 to Arousal check when both partners are taking 10)
2    Multiple Orgasms {female} (if you climax from an Arousal check you failed by less than 10, make the check again to see if you really failed by 10 or more)
2      Greedy Lvr (per Guide)
3    Selfless Lvr (per Guide)
4    Responsive (per Guide)
5    Tantric Lore (add your WIS mod to Arousal checks)
5      Male Multiple Orgasms (have successive orgasms equal to WIS mod before experiencing normal post-climax state)

CHARISMA
Lvl  Tricks
1    Easy to Read (per Guide)
1      Foreplay (see DEX-based Tricks)
2    Talk Dirty (per Guide)
3    Sexpot (add 1.5x your CHA mod to SP when you behave in an extremely sensual manner during sex)
4    Suggestion (overcome partner's turn-offs; partner must make Will save at DC=your CHA to refuse the suggestion; a true phobia adds +10 to the save roll)

* * * * *

As you can see, there are no Tricks requiring SP ranks greater than 5 or ability scores greater than 15, which seems fair to me.  Many PCs and NPCs will have a couple of ranks in SP; few are likely to have 10 ranks or more.

Also, basic Tricks such as Powerful Lvr, Dexterous Lvr, etc. are not only not required for other Tricks; they are gone altogether.  It occurred to me that realistically, CHA is the primary determinant of sexual success.  A strong or dexterous character may learn Tricks to get extra mileage out of his abilities, but he can't just substutute DEX for CHA, especially if he suffers a natural CHA penalty.

I have other homebrewed changes to the Guide, but these are the most substantial.  Just thought I'd toss 'em out there and see whether or not they have any merit as 3E-ish rules.


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## Gez

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *I still remain in favour of the feat/prowess rank combo method, mostly because although the prerequisite feats may be better as conventional feats, the single-unlock system allows you to get one feat for access to five or six tricks, whereas otherwise you'd have to buy three or four for the same number, making carnal arts fairly scarce amongst lower-level players. It also avoids forcing characters to take feats they otherwise wouldn't want.*




I'm not sure I understand well what you said. Requiring specific feats that have no other purpose would be less forcing characters to take feats they otherwise would not want ? 

I'm all for carnal arts using conventional feats, myself. Only the most potent/dramatic arts would require specific feats.

And I think that all feats, even new ones, should be useful even without the art -- for a reason of style, I'm against feats that are prerequisites for prerequisiteness sake.

The way I see the typical requirements for a carnal art, that would be 0 to 2 feats, usually one; and 2 to 4 skill ranks.


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## Sorn

Gez, you hit the nail on the head. Also, some Carnal Arts could require skills other than Sexual Prowess... A Bondage Art would need Use Rope. If you want to add a domination aspect, Intimidate (probably the Cha aspect) would work. A Kama Sutra-like Carnal Art would have Escape Artist (for some of those positions, you either have to have a rubber spine or a lot of ranks in Escape Artist).


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## kolvar

everyone seen this?
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=718


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## Sorn

Kolvar: I saw it mentioned on the Mongoose forums, but I thought it was just a joke. Now we have some serious competition. However, judging by the other Encyclopaedia Arcane books, there won't be much in terms of actual sex rules, but the magic angle should be covered pretty well. 

Someone should get the book (I'll check myself and see if the wife approves the purchase). Then we should go over things and see what in there is classified as Open Content, and how much overlap we already have. 

As said, I would imagine that the "New Uses for Old Spells" and maybe some of the new spells therein could possible overlap. 

In any case, I don't think that this should mark the end of our little (Okay... huge) project.


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## Sorn

Ok... downloading the file right now. I'll go over it during my lunch break and will post my findings when I'm done. 

I'll keep a close eye on spells and open content.


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## kolvar

I was not implying, that we should stop our project, more, that we should start it in ernest (well I am rather pissed, that, everytime we get close to finishing it someone new steps in and says, what is all wrong, everybody complies (because the new one has allways been right so far) and we start over again. It is good, that we try to do the best guide we can, but we should come to an end some time.  I realy do not know, which rules we will be using)


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## Sorn

Kolvar: I see where you are coming from. And I agree. Too many revisions and debates over things that could be done already. At least we are getting close to being done with the core mechanics. Once that is in place, the rest should go rather smoothly. 

As far as EA: Nymphology goes... I only had a few minutes to go over things. It's not nearly as enhaustive as I feared it to be. No rules for sexual encounters, no pregancy rules, not nearly as many spells as in our book. Their "new uses for existing spells" is not  very detailed, but nice to read. A few creatures (including a "Creature of Lust" template) and an overview on the Plane of Lust. Feats are very general (one gives a +2 to some social skills when used in the bed, another lets you use Cha instead of Int to set your spell DC's). New uses for existing skills (Alchemy for aphrodisiacs, Concentration [new DC's for casting while enganging in intercourse or being "serviced"] and Perform [into which they include fellatio and strip-tease as new artforms]).

I'll go over the spells in a little more detail tonight, but at first glance I spotted the obligatory "Make your penis bigger"  spell, a lubrication spell, and Summon Sex Partner I-IV. 

On the bright side, all text containing game information is Open Content. What we will do with it is in the air, but at least we can reference to it. 

This was only a brief look-through, but it definitely looks more like a complimentary book than a replacement.


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## kolvar

thanx sorn


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## Sorn

Ok... read EA: Nymphology from beginning to end. 

Here are a few notes:

Introduction:
A few pages on the history of "blue" magic, its practicioners and how it is viewed by other mages and the general public. It then launches into a discussion of the dangers of sex magic (over-indulgence, broken hearts, etc.). It is finished out by new uses for existing spells. An interesting spin on this was that most spells started out with a carnal idea and were generalized to be presented to the teachers at the wizard's school. This section is fairly brief and each spell school only mentions one or two spells.

Spells:
Twelve pages of spells. All of them are either Bard or Sor/Wiz. No cleric spells, no druid spells, no new domain lists. Nothing earth-shattering here, but a few nice ones. Once we get to spells, I'll compare and see what kind of overlap we have, but I am not expecting too much. 

Plane of Lust:
This is fairly well done, but all in all it is different enough from our Plane of Eros so we don't really have to worry about it. Theirs states that it is the source of all lust and love, ours is where it ends up. Maybe we can mention the Plane of Lust as bordering the Plane of Eros. 

Then we have the Creature of Lust template. Same idea as ours, but slightly different when it comes to abilitities. Maybe rename ours to "Carnal Creature"?

Prestige Classes:
All of them are 5-level PrC's. 

Agony Mage: relationship/sex therapist who can pry personal secrets from "clients" and sometimes uses them for blackmail.

Mystic Pimp: summoner who rents out summoned beings for obvious purposes.

Seducer: erotic mage, but rather plainly done. Considering there are no actual sex rules in the book, not surprising.

Peeping Scryer: diviner gone bad

Skills&Feats:
As mentioned in my earlier post, nothing too earthshattering here. A handful of new alchemical concoctions, a new DC table for Concentration to cast spells during sexual activities, and new suggested used for the Perform skill. Feats... new use for Endurance, one called Bedroom Proficiency (+2 social skills for romantic encounters), another one that gives a small bonus to social skills with people you had sex with within the last month, and the abovementioned "Use Cha for spell DC's" feat. 

Nothing at all like our section. 

Magic Items:
A handful of cockrings and chastity belts, 3 new potions, a new armor enhancement (Flattering Armor... +2 Cha skills with appropriate targets), one really silly weapon (Porksword of Popping), and some misc. items like Sexy Sheets (self-cleaning and casts an illusion on your bedpartner in the morning to avoid heart attack), Hoisery of Lacyness (when worn with nothing else gives you the benefit of some of the sexyness-enhancing spells), and my favorite... the Carved Monkey of Spanking (after you spank it, you are immune to sex-magic for 24 hours).

Lastly, we have Creatures...
Nothing terribly exciting... mostly silly critters like the Bearded Clam or a plant that pretends to be a naked humanoid inviting someone to have sex, only to ram a seedpod into their rectum. 

All in all, it's nice, and I laughed a lot. It's definitely a nice companion volume to the BoUCK.


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## Death By Surfeit

Sorry for the long abscence, everyone, but if it’s any consolation going internet cold-turkey hasn’t been great for me either . After reading over everyone’s contributions, there’s a couple of issues to deal with, which I will go into over the course of this post.

Welcome to the editing board, Asher! It’s always good to hear from someone who has playtested the NUCK to such an extent, and your post included useful material and important considerations that will undoubtedly help. I’ll get to that in a moment.

Firstly, from what I’ve heard of the Nymphology book it’s vague, lighthearted and (like an awful lot of the Encyclopaedia Arcana books in my opinion) rather naff. As far as I can tell it poses no more threat or challenge to the BoUCK as the existence of the DbS conversion or the original guide - it’s shallow and narrow-band, whereas what we’re producing is a comprehensive and really rather wonderful compilation of all the carnal knowledge applicable to D&D.

In other words, we can plain ignore it to no detriment of our own. Keep working, everyone!

The second issue seems to be a split in the board over how we’re going to be handling the Carnal Arts (which I will refer to as Arts from now on). Gez, and I think Sorn, are in favour of using conventional feats in the same manner as OA. VVrayven and myself prefer an unconventional feat system. Our recently decloaked Asher prefers another system entirely which, whilst interesting, I feel is a little cumbersome.

I could try to mediate in this situation, engage in long rhetoric to sway you to my method of thinking, but have instead chosen to put forward my own proposition, albeit somewhat foreshortened. Everyone is free to give feedback or make their own contribution, but should it pass muster with the group I will write out and post up the full version.

So, without further ado....

*CARNAL ARTS*
Specific Feat Proposal, Draft Copy

SYSTEM
Carnal arts are positions, maneouvres, capabilities and tricks which enhance your prowess in new and interesting ways. Each of the six Arts is linked to a key ability score - the higher your score, the more useful it will be to you.

In order for you to gain access to an Art, you must take the relevant feat. Once this is taken, you may use the Art’s techniques a number of times equal to the appropriate ability score (or more, if you take the feat multiple times). More and more different techniques become available as you progress in levels of Prowess, in much the same manner that more and more applications of bardic music become available when a bard goes up ranks in Perform.

FEAT
The generic form of Carnal Art feats goes along these lines. The title and key ability score changes with each, but the mechanics remain consistent between them.

CARNAL ART (Carnal)
You are familiar with the Art in question, a brief summary of which is included here
Prerequisite: Key ability score 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the techniques of the Art a number of times equal to your key ability modifer before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the techniques an additional nmber of times equal to your key ability modifier before resting.

ARTS
The Arts (and their associated techniques) are summarised below very briefly. Each Art has five associated techniques for the sake of balance, but the prerequisites for each vary. All names, effects and so on are purely for draft - suggestions are helpful. Effects last for one round unless otherwise stated.

*Five Immaculate Forms of the Master (Str)*
The personal teachings of Weil-Hung, the exiled half-orc monk.
Powerful Lover - Use Str as key ability until Climax or Ecstasy
Charging Ram - Increase effective size category of phallus by half/one whilst penetrating
Gulping Heron - Make (Str mod) extra Prowess checks whilst penetrated - take highest
Squeezing Boa - Grapple in which Prowess is used is inescapable
Stinging Cobra - Make Prowess checks with unarmed melee attacks

*Flowers of the Decadent Blossom (Dex)*
A subtle art learnt by the carefree upper echelons of highest society.
Nimble Lover - Use Dex as key ability until Climax or Ecstasy
Love for Many - Reduce/ignore penalties for multiple partners
Secret Affair - May make Prowess check through clothing and armour
Love of Many - May make check to use rank bonus to Prowess multiple times
Open Romance - Ignore all penalties for circumstances, love of others, past experience etc etc

*Techniques of the Halfling Harlot (Con)*
Survival traits passed down through the ranks of the halfling whorehouses.
Accomodating - Minimise Size Matters damage
Muscle Relaxation - Increase size of given orifice by half/one
Selfless Lover - Gain bonus if partner gets penalty
Feign Pain - Pretend damage was maximum w/ regards sadism until Climax or Ecstasy
Induce Sadism - Give partners the sadism fetish

*Tricks of the Great Improviso (Int)*
The inheritance to society of the legendary gnome Arcanalist.
Imaginative Lover - Use Int as key ability until Climax or Ecstasy
Adaptability - Reduce/ignore penalties for other types of creatures until Climax/Ecstasy
Improvisation - Apply Prowess bonus to any technique, regardless of proficiency
Subtle Touch - Make Prowess check without partner realising
Mind Games - Turn partner’s arousal into lustfulness

*Lore of the Tantric Ancients (Wis)*
Learnt from ancient books where wisdom and sensuality were one.
Spiritual Lover - Use Wis as key ability until Climax or Ecstasy
Humble the Mountain - Ignore sexual fatigue for single Climax/Ecstasy
Dam the River - Automatically succeed at save to ignore Arousal shift
Climb the Mountain - Modify check result to turn Climax into Ecstasy
Swim the River - Ignore all penalties for Arousal.

*Art of the Immortal Nymph (Cha)*
Communal tips and tricks shared amongst the finest and most glamorous courtesans.
Encapsulating Touch - All Concentration checks against Arousal fail
Dreamlike Presence - Reduce/ignore one penalty for differing sexual alignment/frets etc
Beatific Presence - Ignore penalty for using striptease, exotic dance etc. to raise above Aroused
Irresistable Touch - Partner cannot make save against Arousal
Monumental Presence - Post-coitus attitude changes are irrevocable

You’ll notice that the option to use other key abilities for Prowess modifier has been included in these Arts (except from Cha, where it is already used, and Con, where it cannot). This is one of many options, as the trick could be to combine key ability with Cha as twofold bonus, double given bonus, something completely different etc. etc. Feedback please on this.

As ever, this is only working copy and is free to be ditched or changed in any way you see fit - suggestions for improvement or alternative renditions are very much appreciated.

Hear from you all soon,

Death B Surfeit


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## Sorn

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> Firstly, from what I’ve heard of the Nymphology book it’s vague, lighthearted and (like an awful lot of the Encyclopaedia Arcana books in my opinion) rather naff. As far as I can tell it poses no more threat or challenge to the BoUCK as the existence of the DbS conversion or the original guide - it’s shallow and narrow-band, whereas what we’re producing is a comprehensive and really rather wonderful compilation of all the carnal knowledge applicable to D&D.
> 
> In other words, we can plain ignore it to no detriment of our own. Keep working, everyone!




Exactly my sentiments. However, since all non-fluff segments are open content, I'd suggest once we get to editing our spells, we check for duplicates and compare. Nothing I hate more than countless d20 spells by different publishers that do the same thing. My wife is working on an Excel spell list of all the books we own (which is a lot), and there are quite a few examples of duplicate spells, where there shouldn't be. How many different versions of a given cleric domain do we really need? So, instead of duplicating, we could reuse some of the material presented elsewhere. I am not saying the whole spell list from EA:Nymphology, but where applicable. 



> The second issue seems to be a split in the board over how we’re going to be handling the Carnal Arts (which I will refer to as Arts from now on). Gez, and I think Sorn, are in favour of using conventional feats in the same manner as OA. VVrayven and myself prefer an unconventional feat system. Our recently decloaked Asher prefers another system entirely which, whilst interesting, I feel is a little cumbersome.




My prime concern is the fact that most games will not have a sexual focus. It might be a part of it, maybe even a big part. However, if presented with the option of spending a lot of feats on sexual stuff or getting Power Attack and Cleave, most people will probably pick regular feats that are either beneficial to their survival or give general bonuses (like the various forms of Skill Focus). 

The first draft with just Sex Tricks based on ranks in Sexual Prowess was supporting this view, since skill points are a lot easier to come by, and you get a lot of those few ranks in Sexual Prowess. Maybe only a handful of ranks down the road when you gained a few levels. 

Having advanced versions (i.e. Carnal Arts) available is even cooler, but as said, feats are hard to come by, so if it can be handled with general feats that people already have, would be better in my opinion. 

Your latest draft relies on only one feat, and a minimum rank of 3. That's pretty good, and I can live with that. It ensures that even low-level NPC's can pick up a carnal art, and we don't have to deal with 20th level prostitutes. I am still a little worried that people will shy away from taking a feat, but as long as the standard sex tricks are still available, that shouldn't be an issue. 



> Squeezing Boa - Grapple in which Prowess is used is inescapable
> Stinging Cobra - Make Prowess checks with unarmed melee attacks




Just a quick question on those two... does that mean that you get to use the Carnal Art in combat? Rub a little here and there as you grapple someone? I noticed similar ones in the other arts, but those two stuck out the most. 

If so, there would definitely be an increased value of getting the Carnal Arts feat, since it would be beneficial outside of your normal sex situation. 

Again, that's my only worry... we design an elaborate Carnal Arts system and nobody uses it because they don't want to "waste" a feat for it and just make due with standard Prowess checks.


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## kolvar

I am with Sorn, that most of the feats, we contribute to the open gaming content should have a direct aplication outside the direct carnal contact, i.e. They give a flavor to your character, because they do something differently from other feats and the character is marked as a sensual/ sexual/ perverse being by it.
Now to the carnal arts: most of us know a bit about doing nice sex (apart form missionary position and doggy style) an some of even got basic skills in felatio or cunnilingus (for some of us even both). But most of us will probably never be the greatest lovers of history, tantric masters, students of the kamasutra or, when we come down to it, skillful doms.
What I am trying to say, is, that a basic, untrained skill should be the norm, the Art could be a feat and the special tricks could be mini-feats/ bard-like abilities, that the character could take while he raises his skill. Some of these mini-feats should only be take-able for charakters with the according art-feat.

(wow, the first time, I say something to the basic mechanism, and that after 1 1/2 year)


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## Death By Surfeit

It's nice to have your feedback, but I'm a little unsure as to what changes, if any, you'd like to make to the draft proposal. The idea of single-feat basing is that it accomodates three levels of player type/campaign carnality:

Little carnality: Does not use guide. Characters have no ranks in Perform, sex is done behind closed doors.
Moderate carnality: Uses guide. Characters may have a few ranks in Perform, and may know a few exotic spells.
High carnality: Uses guide. Characters on this level will not only have many ranks in Perform, but are also likely to take sexual feats (including Arts) or even classes.

The role of Carnal Arts in my opinion is quite clear. A character without ranks in Prowess can still do fairly well in a sexual situation (the rules have been engineered to that end), and a character with is even better. Carnal Arts add somewhat to the flavour of a character and allow them specialisation in their field, much as a fighter may have a favourite weapon.

They're less cumbersome than sexual tricks (which would be awkward when we're using Prowess for proficiencies in addition), and avoid the need to build classes with special sexual abilities. As several techniques are bundled in each, it makes them worthwhile feats, on a par with the conventional ones for game effects.

In essence, only those playing high-sexuality campaigns are likely to take them, but that's fine in my opinion. The GUCK is designed to cater for all levels of sexual content in a campaign without discrimination, and Carnal Arts are just one aspect of that. However, feel free to disagree with me on this.

With regard's Sorn's question on sexual activity in combat...

*checks for agitated, morally vigilant lurkers*

...we had accomodated NC situations by saying that a Prowess check (of whatever type) could be made as a full-round action on a grappled opponent. Stinging Cobra is an exception to this, allowing you to make them as an unarmed melee attack. This is clearly a rather neat way of distracting pesky spellcasters.

With regards spells: Nymphology may have spells of a similar purpose, but they were divorced from any actual sexual mechanics. The necessity in structuring ours is that they remain in line - having near-duplicate spell descriptions is fine (as you said, many people do it), as the most important thing is keeping integrity within the guide itself. And it saves the bother of referencing everything, too.

Feeeback, please from the rest of you - the only thing we can learn from Nymphology is the necessity of our own dedication to the Guide, as this hereforeto taboo subject is now starting to be cashed in upon by the large companies.

Ever onwards!


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## kolvar

Sorry, if my post got over strangely, I just wanted to state, what I think, the system should be able to accomplish.


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## asra

I'm following this thread with some interest, and wait to see the final result, but I would like to mention two points:

1) Please remember that it will be benficial if the guide addressed non-fantasy setting (aka D20 Modern, Star Wars, etc.)

2) It would be nice if the guide will also cover less carnal themes such as handling dating, picking up someone at a bar, when does an NPC falls in love with a character, etc. While usually the GM supposed to handle such things, it would be nice to have some guide lines about handling such things, esp. for normal characters.

Keep up the good work...


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## asra

Regarding my last post (as this is a contributerer thread) does such rules exist? If not, is a contribution is this direction wanted?


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## Sorn

DbS: Now it becomes clearer to me. This does sound pretty good. 

As far as the grappling/NC issue goes, I think that's a great idea. I am sure with all the different pressure points used in Martial Arts, there could easily be pleasure points as well. One well-aimed attack later and the opponent has a mess in his loincloth. 


Asra: welcome to the our little corner of the boards. 

Currently, the guide focuses on fantasy settings, but the core mechanics will be easily ported to any d20 setting. After all,  people are horny everywhere, doesn't matter whether it's an elf, a modern-day accountant, or a light-sabre wielding Wookie. Granted, the spells won't do you much good, nor the prestige classes. 

However, what else do you really need for a modern-day setting? 

Pregnancy rules are easily done... take human values, with maybe some adjustments on where you are in the world. Note that we can't come up with any racial modifiers for any Star Wars races, since they are licensed trademarks. 

As far as dating/picking someone up goes, stick with opposed Bluff/Sense Motive rolls. A few new modifiers might not be a bad idea... let's keep that in mind when it comes time to go over the rest of the skills.


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## Death By Surfeit

How about the rest of you? Beyonds Sorn, Kolvar and Asra, the team seems pretty... quiet. Your opinions count for an awful lot, and it's terribly bad form to keep on vanishing like that. Anyone?


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## Sorn

They are probably all heading down to New Orleans for Mardi Gras to "playtest" some of the rules.


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## asra

About modern usage of the GUCK:
While the guide does aim toward fantasy setting, a more "natrualized" core rule terminology (one that does not refers to magic) would be nice. Later spells, skills, feats that are fantasy specific can be listed. Also consider the following:
* Repuation & Media plays a much borader role in modern settings, as the Gods might not be present but the gossip columns are (or at least people are)
* When adding interesting substances, some notes regarding real life substances instead of fantasy ones. Same goes for things like counterceptives.
* Toys & Equipments in a modern setting are usually quite different from their fantasy equivelents (no need for spell components - battaries do just fine)

About picking up something in the bar (or any kind of courtship to that matter):
After some discussion with friends, I'm not so sure about Bluff being the right skill. Diploamcy seem to be appropriate one as well, if not even more -- If a character court someone that he or she are attempting to improve the other character reaction toward them. 
Consider using Diploamcy with such attitudes as  Repulsed (instead of hostile),	Unreceptive (unfriendly), Indifferent, Attracted (Friednly),	Enamored (helpful),	Enthralled (and additonal attidude).  Add to this modifiers for mood, gender/race preference, etc. This can be repeated on differenct encounter to simulate the process of courtship. Good rolls can also effect the mental state of the participents (some find the courtship an important element of arousal).
Those attitudes can provide bonuses (or penalites) to other interactions, including sex.  Great sex might also move the NPC to a more favorable attitude regarding the character.

In this case, character A first tries to get a better attitude from NPC B by using diplomacy. A bluff might simply represent an attempt of A to convince B ("never on first date!") to go to a more intimate place NOW.  A successful bluff might get someone to bed but might cause some unfavorable reactions toward the seducer the next morning. Bluff is usually described as an element of fast-talk -- not every courship is neccessraly a pickup at a bar, and not every successful pickup at a bar mean automatic sex.

BTW, in D20 modern, Star Wars (and who knows maybe in D&D 3.5) perform skills are seperate - Prowerss might simply be written down in those as Perform (Sex)


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## Bastoche

DbS' last suggestion is fine with me and adresses all the issues I had in mind previously. Carry on!


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## asra

About modern usage of the GUCK:
While the guide does aim toward fantasy setting, a more "natrualized" core rule terminology (one that does not refers to magic) would be nice. Later spells, skills, feats that are fantasy specific can be listed. Also consider the following:
* Repuation & Media plays a much borader role in modern settings, as the Gods might not be present but the gossip columns are (or at least people are)
* When adding interesting substances, some notes regarding real life substances instead of fantasy ones. Same goes for things like counterceptives.
* Toys & Equipments in a modern setting are usually quite different from their fantasy equivelents (no need for spell components - battaries do just fine)

About picking up something in the bar (or any kind of courtship to that matter):
After some discussion with friends, I'm not so sure about Bluff being the right skill. Diploamcy seem to be appropriate one as well, if not even more -- If a character court someone that he or she are attempting to improve the other character reaction toward them. 
Consider using Diploamcy with such attitudes as  Repulsed (instead of hostile),	Unreceptive (unfriendly), Indifferent, Attracted (Friednly),	Enamored (helpful),	Enthralled (and additonal attidude).  Add to this modifiers for mood, gender/race preference, etc. This can be repeated on differenct encounter to simulate the process of courtship. Good rolls can also effect the mental state of the participents (some find the courtship an important element of arousal).
Those attitudes can provide bonuses (or penalites) to other interactions, including sex.  Great sex might also move the NPC to a more favorable attitude regarding the character.

In this case, character A first tries to get a better attitude from NPC B by using diplomacy. A bluff might simply represent an attempt of A to convince B ("never on first date!") to go to a more intimate place NOW.  A successful bluff might get someone to bed but might cause some unfavorable reactions toward the seducer the next morning. Bluff is usually described as an element of fast-talk -- not every courship is neccessraly a pickup at a bar, and not every successful pickup at a bar mean automatic sex.

BTW, in D20 modern, Star Wars (and who knows maybe in D&D 3.5) perform skills are seperate - Prowerss might simply be written down in those as Perform (Sex)


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## Sorn

Asra: 

D20 Modern
I see your point. However, the prime audience for this is D&D players (especially since this is what most the developers play). Personally, I don't like sourcebooks where I have to sift through and figure out which parts apply to fantasy and which one apply to other settings. Having batteries intermingle with spell components and fantasy-only PrC's is more of a pain than anything else. But, an appendix with d20Modern specific rules would be a good spot to put them. It would be included, but yet seperate from the main focus.

Bluff/Diplomacy:
Again, you make a lot of sense. The only reason I say Bluff is because that is the official d20 stance on Seduction (and not only sexual... seduction has many flavors). That was determined in Sword & Fist. My take on this is this: you can use Diplomacy to adjust the target's mood towards you, and then you make your Bluff roll. After all, there is something you want (be it sex, companionship, long-term relation, etc), and you portray yourself in a favorable light to get it. I don't think anyone will try to seduce someone by pointing out their flaws. Well, then again, people are strange, and they might, but usually the results are pretty horrendous. 



> not every courtship is neccessraly a pickup at a bar, and not every successful pickup at a bar mean automatic sex.




Courtship is a different ballgame from seduction. You are now entering the realm of romance and love, and I don't think we want to put any concrete modifiers on that. It could easily lead to strange situations. Imagine this: 

_"Ok, your character has been courted by the rather ugly guy for 10 months, and with the +4 for the rose he sent you, the +2 candy bonus, the +6 for buying your parents a new ox-cart, and the +2 for shirt he had enchanted to bear your likeness, you now fall in love with him. It doesn't matter that you think he's weird and more of a stalker than anything else, the rules indicate that you have to love him"
_

This might be an extreme example, but  it could happen. Things like that are better left in the domain of ROLEplaying, not ROLLplaying. 

Now for Perform... Not everybody gets Perform as a class skill. OTOMH, in D&D the only class who gets it as a class skill is the Bard, and maybe the Rogue.  We want to give everybody equal access to sexual skills. Giving Perform to everybody as a class skill is unbalancing, and none of the other skills really fit. The only ones that would make sense would be Craft or Profession. You are not actually making anything, so Craft is out. And sex doesn't strike me as a profession unless you are a prostitute, plus the Wis modifier seems wrong. As a matter of fact, a lot of people are having sex when common sense (Wisdom) should indicate that they shouldn't. Spycraft has added Sports and Hobby skills to the list, but neither of them really 
strikes me as workable for sex either. 

Hence, a new skill, that every class gets as an additional class skill is the best way to go. 

Btw, since in D&D, you get a new artforms as you increase your ranks in Perform, you can take artforms that would enhance your Sexual Prowess. I can easily see synergy bonuses for Perform (Erotic Dance) or Perform (Dirty Talk).


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## asra

An modern+ setting appednix is a good idea, but again, a little more generic terminology at the basic mechanism rules will help.

Bluff=Seduction via Sword & Fist:
A) NOT an OGL source (and only mention there, IIRC, not in any other Bluff reference by WotC I came across) -- Therefore should be adressed (and NOT copied) by the GUCK itself.
B) I think your concept of using the diplomacy is valid. But I still hold by the importance of the general attitude toward the character. 
C) The Bluff skill is described as (quoting the D20 SRD) "A successful Bluff check indicates that the target reacts as the character wishes, at least for a short time (usually 1 round or less) or believes something that the character wants him to believe" -- it seem to indicate that the bluff hold for a very short duration - enough to get some info, distract the target in order to ease a pickpocket attepth, but not for a night getaway.



			
				Sorn said:
			
		

> *Asra:
> 
> Courtship is a different ballgame from seduction. You are now entering the realm of romance and love, and I don't think we want to put any concrete modifiers on that. It could easily lead to strange situations. Imagine this:
> 
> "Ok, your character has been courted by the rather ugly guy for 10 months, and with the +4 for the rose he sent you, the +2 candy bonus, the +6 for buying your parents a new ox-cart, and the +2 for shirt he had enchanted to bear your likeness, you now fall in love with him. It doesn't matter that you think he's weird and more of a stalker than anything else, the rules indicate that you have to love him"
> 
> 
> This might be an extreme example, but  it could happen. Things like that are better left in the domain of ROLEplaying, not ROLLplaying. "
> *




Aha - the same could say for the entire GUCK  ...    (and could be handled quite easily -- while NOT starting it again (please), this is not an unsimiliar situation to a certain NC-issues that was rised in this thread.)

Seriously, while GUCK is mainly about the act itself, some rules regarding what bring people to the act are, in my opinion, in place. Also having rules sometimes make certain "delicate" role playing situations more comfortable - roleplaying romance in some situation can make players (and DM) feel awkward, and falling back on rules often makes thing easier to those involved (focus on the rules - ignore the weirdness of the situation).


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## Bastoche

asra said:
			
		

> *
> Aha - the same could say for the entire GUCK  ...    (and could be handled quite easily -- while NOT starting it again (please), this is not an unsimiliar situation to a certain NC-issues that was rised in this thread.)
> *




I do not agree with this. The GUCK concerns itself (more or less) with manual ability. The skill one has to manoeuver it's body to acheive a certain goal. While seduction and love is much more subtle. I'm in favor of neglecting romance altogheter in the GUCK and leave the matter in the DM's own hands. Some suggestions could be made in appendix (or maybe in the introduction) but I think it's not a good idea to waste time on that matter. It could go on forever.



> *
> Seriously, while GUCK is mainly about the act itself, some rules regarding what bring people to the act are, in my opinion, in place. Also having rules sometimes make certain "delicate" role playing situations more comfortable - roleplaying romance in some situation can make players (and DM) feel awkward, and falling back on rules often makes thing easier to those involved (focus on the rules - ignore the weirdness of the situation). *




I do not agree with this either. If you can roleplay hate (toward a villain or from a villain toward a PC character) it should be as easy to play love. If you can't, there's all the ingredients in the core rule: sense motive, bluff and diplomacy (plus any circonstancial bonus from any other source). Just use it proprely. No need to go in details over this.

As for the modern vs starwars vs D&D issue, I only play D&D so I'd prefer the GUCK to be realted to that only...


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## Gez

Hello, I'm still here.

I'm not opposed to having a _Modern_ appendix, but that should not be a priority.

I don't think (but I may be wrong) Perform will go the way of d20 Modern or d20 SW. Because of the bard class. So, we can keep the "ranks give proficiencies" approach and stay d20-consistant IMO.

I'll give more opinion and draft on mechanics when I'll have a bit more time, right now I'm rather focused on the critter I'm working on for Sword & Sorcery Studios.


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## Death By Surfeit

Hello everyone,

Regarding your suggestions, Asra, there is indeed potential to convert our mechanical rules into a modern or even futuristic setting, but the GUCK was created with the express intention of catering for sexual matters in a fantasy environment, more specifically that of D&D. Yes, we could easily hop around converting to other contexts, but an awful lot of our content (anything magic-related, the species-specific details, yadda yadda) would be lost.

With regards the recommendation for seduction, courtship and love, the GUCK may address some of the issues: a mechanic dedicated purely to seduction (such as that presented in Ch3 of the DbS conversion) would probably be featured, but open to modifiers as the Gamesmaster sees fit (roleplay will definately be required). Courtship, love and such are best left purely in the grounds of roleplaying, as they are tied in with the nature of the character and are far more than a one-off event. Players who feel too uncomfortable doing so should probably avoid such matters.

In the interests of faster progress, could we get the Carnal Arts mechanic eschewed/edited/finalised before straying too far in conceptual matters? Does anyone have any other proposals to post, like to call maneouvres into question or suggest your own - all of your suggestions are appreciated.

Oh, and has anyone heard from VVrayven? She hasn’t posted in some time and it would be a shame to miss out on her contributions.

Cheers,

Death B Surfeit


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## Bastoche

If someone could post a summary of what was more or less agreed upon, it would help. In order of skills, feats and mechanics.


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## VVrayven

> Oh, and has anyone heard from VVrayven? She hasn’t posted in some time and it would be a shame to miss out on her contributions.




Well, I'm glad I was missed and cared about.  <hugs>

Sorry I have been out of contact, RL has some downsides sometimes. Onto the GUCK:



> With regards the recommendation for seduction, courtship and love, the GUCK may address some of the issues: a mechanic dedicated purely to seduction (such as that presented in Ch3 of the DbS conversion) would probably be featured, but open to modifiers as the Gamesmaster sees fit (roleplay will definately be required). Courtship, love and such are best left purely in the grounds of roleplaying, as they are tied in with the nature of the character and are far more than a one-off event. Players who feel too uncomfortable doing so should probably avoid such matters.




I concur completly and believe we should resolve the core mechanics and other aspects before tackling this issue. Maybe this would be better suited to discussion in the other thread?

As for the Modern Appendix... Well, I don't see iit as inconceivable, but I don't think it's neccesary. I think the core mechanic works well in modern and 3e.

As for dbs's system. I love it. It is what I have been asking for and I think he has summed up the whole system rather well. I do think we need some more arts (allow some overlap even). And clarify how a person can mix arts (can they?). Maybe each art should have seven levels of advancement?



> The role of Carnal Arts in my opinion is quite clear. A character without ranks in Prowess can still do fairly well in a sexual situation (the rules have been engineered to that end), and a character with is even better. Carnal Arts add somewhat to the flavour of a character and allow them specialisation in their field, much as a fighter may have a favourite weapon.




I agree. I think this system works best. And as I pointed out before. We can include a side bar on how to include bonus sexual feats if the game warrents it and you don't want characters to sacrifice too much. 

I think this is great progess. I think now we need to decide if this is the way to go, make a few more arts and flesh out the ones we have. Define them. Then:

1) Solidify the purpose of others skills ala bluff, use rope...

2) Make all the feats work with status conditions, etc...

3) Figure out exactly how we are handling NC (with regards to specialized feats, skills, and arts...)

4) Rework the spells.

5) Everything else...

Great work dbs and excellent feedback from everyone. I'll try to post some of my own stuff (arts and feats) as soon as I get the chance. My SO and I are having some interesting problems as of late, but I should be around more often now. Again, wonderful work guys. And thanks for the concern DbS,  <hugs>


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## Asher

Death By Surfeit was correct about the unwieldiness of the alternate Sex Tricks system I'd set up.  I've revised it yet again, making two major changes:

1) No ability score requirements for any particular Tricks.  Instead, the bonuses conferred by most Tricks are dependent on particular ability scores and serve to enhance the base mod.  This makes a Trick play to a character's natural strengths.

For example, I've rewritten the Sexual Expertise trick so that instead of transferring a flat 5 points from a char's SP check to the partner's Arousal check, the number of points that can be transferred is 2x the char's INT mod.  In that way, a slightly gifted character (INT 12) can give his partner a small but still meaningful Arousal check bonus of +2, while a really sharp cookie (INT 16) could give his partner a bonus up to +6.

There are still many low-level Tricks that are not ability score-dependent and could be learned by any ordinary person, even Commoners, which seems realistic to me.

2) The second change is that I've redistributed the Tricks into nine difficulty levels (rather than only five levels), a scheme which parallels the spell level table.  A character must have ranks in SP equal to or greater than the difficulty level of a Sex Trick to learn that Trick; thus no Trick requires more than nine ranks in SP, which again seems reasonable to me.  A concise list of Tricks by level follows:

Level 1: Kegel Flex, Foreplay, Pinch, Envision Better Lover, Pace Yourself, Easy to Read

Level 2: Muscular Control, Physique, Intense, Striptease, Enduring, Quick Study, Delay Orgasm, Talk Dirty

Level 3: Sexual Focus, Resist Fatigue, Greedy, Selfless, Sexpot

Level 4: Bondage, Maw Stuffing, Orifice Stuffing, Sexual Combination, Instant Withdrawal, Resist Pain, Multiple Orgasms, Species Focus

Level 5: Support Partner, Coordinated, Tireless, Disease Resistance, Sexual Expertise, Responsive, Lover Focus

Level 6: Contortionist, Quick Recovery, Teasing

Level 7: Tantric Lore, Impressive Repertoire, Persuasive

Level 8: Stunning Pleasure, Everywhere at Once, Adaptive

Level 9: Overwhelming Force, Male Multiple Orgasms

(Note that many of these Tricks have been slightly reworked since my previous post, and some of those that bear the same names as Tricks from the Guide are not exactly the same.  For brevity's sake, I'm refraining from posting summaries of the Tricks' mechanics.)

I understand that this is probably not the direction in which GUCK development is going.  (I do like the concept of different schools of expertise, each incorporating its own progression of related Tricks.)  Feel free to ignore any or all of these suggestions; I post them merely in the event that someone might find something useful.  What I don't want is to bog down progress with yet another voice saying, "hey, let's scrap everything and go in this other direction" -- so take whatever's good and junk the rest.

For my part, I especially like the inclusion of very low-level Tricks that are available to persons of average ability.  In the real world, almost anyone can learn the Level 1 Tricks in the list above.  Many of them serve to prolong the sexual experience, which to my mind was a slight weakness in the original mechanics -- unless a male character has a marvelous CON score or many ranks in Concentration, it's statistically improbable that he'll last more than four or five minutes in the act.

Anyway, these are just some additional thoughts.  Keep it going, folks.


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## Death By Surfeit

Wotcher,

With regards Bastoche’s request, a complete writeup is indeed in order , but will have to be given when we have said skills and feats finalised! Nevertheless, with some contributions from everyone, we can get the Carnal Arts written up to draft format, at least.

Wrayven: Who was it that said “forget the search for truth... settle for good fantasy”? Sorry to hear about your troubles, but it’s really good to have you back on the team. To address your priority (1), the usage of different skills brings up an awkward debate. We could head in several directions from here, and I see our options as follows:

A) Eschew the idea of skill synergy entirely. Too many synergy bonuses result in Prowess becoming overpowering, and by using different proficiences we are already catering to ability in different techniques. This option has the advantage of simplicity and game balance, but is a little flavourless.

B) Allow each proficiency to have an associated skill - doggy would have Ride, bondage would have Use Rope, dirty talk would have Bluff, masturbation (F) would have Open Lock , etc etc. This allows a skill synergy bonus from said skill when making checks (+2 for 5 ranks, +4 for 25 ranks and so on). Whilst certainly colourful, this approach is awkward in that we may have difficulty coming up with a skill to match every proficiency.

C) Allow one skill synergy deemed appropriate by the GM to be used with a given Prowess check. Simple and balanced, but perhaps a little too subjective and flavourless.

D) Allow a Prowess check to enable skill synergy (DC 10; DC 20 if two skills are used, etc). If successful, add synergy bonus. If a failure, your uncoordinated/inappropriate usage imposes the bonus as a penalty instead.

E) Whatever else the team can come up with. As ever, I’m open to suggestions.

I personally have a slight inclination toward A), as I feel that the different proficiencies give flavour (and complexity) enough to proceedings, although I’m somewhat uncharacteristically indifferent on the matter - the other resolutions have a lot going for them. What is everyone else’s feelings on the matter?

Asher: A very nice system, although at this stage I’m afraid we’re most likey to go for the singular-feat mechanic at this moment in time. I like your idea of graded effects based on ability scores, and they are a very nice addition to existing rules: I have taken the idea to heart and am dutifully revising the maneouvres I had written up before.

I will shortly be posting up the full mechanics (if not too much fluff text) for each of the maneouvres I had contributed before hand. For reference of those wishing to contribute, the maneouvres posted originally were expected to be unlocked at 3/6/6(upgrade at 12)/9/15 ranks respectively, although some variations can be made. New maneouvres to nestle at 12 and 18 couldn’t hurt, for sure. I agree that there should be some more VVrayvven, and look forward to everybody’s contributions should you come up with anything fitting.

Cheers,

DbS


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## Bastoche

I would vote for A) too. Although I'm a bit ambivalent on the matter.


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## Sorn

I'd vote for a combined B and C (sort of). 

I am an avid Spycraft player, and there are quite a few situational synergy bonuses there (and work great, without convoluting things). E.g. Use Rope gives you a +2 Move Silently, but only when rapelling. 

I'd say, if a character has 5 ranks in Use Rope, and 5 ranks in Ride, and she is tying her girlfriend/submissive up and then doing her doggy style, let her use both synergy bonuses. It's an added element that lets low-level NPC's beef up their Prowess checks. 

I am sure an added side effect will be that the munchkins who have never been laid will come up with some very interesting ideas on things to do in the sack.


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## Gez

Sorn said:
			
		

> *I'd vote for a combined B and C (sort of).*




I'll echo that -- and it's not like we're breaking something there, there are already situational modifiers in D&D (between bluff, sense motive and innuendo; or between use magic device and decipher script, or between use rope and escape artist, on the top of my head).

Although I'm not sure about joke synergies...


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## VVrayven

<yawn> Sorry for the "late" input guys. 

I'm for B & C. This is what I think should happen. Synergy should stack (as it always does, no need to redefine the good ol rules now) for any situation in which the bonuses are from seperate sources.



> I'd say, if a character has 5 ranks in Use Rope, and 5 ranks in Ride, and she is tying her girlfriend/submissive up and then doing her doggy style, let her use both synergy bonuses. It's an added element that lets low-level NPC's beef up their Prowess checks.




I totally agree. Now. That being said. The DC for accomplishing remarkable acts does get messed up if we allow a synergy of +6 or higher. Around that anyway. So, I say the synergy bonus only applies if the partner is in to it. Has a kink or whatever system we adopt for this.

Just to give you an idea of the stacking:

Alchemy: Aphrodisacs (not really syngery)
Animal Empathy: +2 Beastiality (i know, eww)
Appraise: Know your ancient sex toys
Balance: +2 unique position, inverted balanced, etc...
Bluff: +2 Teasing
Climb: +2 inverted or hanging positions
Concentration: +2 during Zen Sex
Diplomacy: +2 during social agenda sex
Disguise: +2 inimate a special trick or partner
Escape Artist: +2 contortion
Gather Information: Learn Kinks
Handle Animal: +2 Beastiality
Heal: +2 to rough sex
Hide: +2 sex in public
Intimidate: +2 to maco sex?
Jump: +2, well, that would be weird
Knowledge: +2 to any area or position studied
Listen: +2 to interprept cries of passion as a request
Move Silent: +2 to have sex covertly
Perform: There are a number of these
Pick Pocket: +2 Tweak
Ride: lol... Perhaps this could be used
Search: +2 sex through clothing
Sense Motive: +2 Read Partner
Speak Language: +2 Talk dirty
Swim: +2 sex in water
Use Rope: +2 bondage

etc... etc... This list is primarily a joke. However, my main point is that synergy bonuses could add up to an impressive list and easily break the mechanic. We need to clearly define these and lay them out if we want to use them.


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## Death By Surfeit

*Warning! Long Post!*

Hello,

I have some apprehensions as to allowing too many synergy bonuses - the current system for Prowess works on a delicate balance in order to allow characters to gain progressively more practical applications of their skill over time - multiple synergenic bonuses could well topple the system and make for some pretty bizarre results. I would advocate the allocation of ONE synergy bonus called by the player that is appropriate to the proficiency being used, subject to GM approval - VVrayven's suggestion sounds good to me, as a guide as to what is acceptable is definately in order. Nevertheless, we are going to have to accept that synergy bonuses are always going to sound a bit gimmicky.

At the risk of being a spoilsport, I consider it important to complete one subject before progressing to the next - the carnal arts are not yet finalised for the draft mechanics, and their completion would help if it were satisfactory and soon. As such, all submissions and recommendations are welcomed - post whatever material is swimming around your head at the moment.

One of the things I had promised you was a write-up of the maneouvres I had formulated into the arts, which I dutifully post here. The majority of flavour text is rather sketchy - the rules are provided below chiefly for the mechanics’ sake, and many words are misnomers. For all those with suggestions, bear in mind that the Prowess requisites, names and techniques themselves are all fully malleable.

NB. A ‘partner’, for the purposes of the rules text, is anyone making a Prowess check against the character or receiving one back. Maneuovres that last until the character Climaxes (the majority) are also discontinued should the character undergo Ecstasy or break off sexual activity.

*CARNAL ART MANEOUVRES - v.01*

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER
Before arising to become the Master of the Immaculate Forms, Weil-Hung lived a life of monastic seclusion, of quiet contemplation and iron discipline. It is against these principles that he rebelled - it is Weil-Hung’s dogma that life is best experienced by really _living_ - sense achieved by sensuality. After a time of hedonistic travelling, he drew upon his martial prowess and sensual experience to found a school of martial arts that forms a very real war of the sexes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Mating Bull
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Str bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Charging Ram
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to increase the effective size of a phallus they are penetrating someone with by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the size may be increased in such a manner by a whole size category. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Gulping Heron
May be activated at start of character’s initiative pass. Allows character being penetrated to make extra Prowess checks in one round equal to their Str modifer on owner of said phallus. The highest score is taken to resolve the effect of these. This ability lasts for one round.

12 Ranks Prowess - Squeezing Boa
May be activated when a successful grapple check is made. Allows character to put foe into a pin in which they may make a Prowess check each round against foe, but inflict no damage. Any attempts to escape can be negated by a higher Prowess check by character, the effects of which are instantly applied. This ability lasts until the pin is released.

15 Ranks Prowess - Stinging Cobra
May be activated at start of character’s initiative pass. All unarmed attacks made during that round, if successful, deal no damage but instead allow an instant Prowess check to be made against the target (all appropriate modifers apply). This ability lasts for one round.

FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM
This art was born from the hedonistic aristocracy of Sumfing Oranutha, the noble and the rich who turned their backs on the concerns of the real world in order to immerse themselves in a lifetime of relationships, affairs and, more often than they would like to admit, downright debauchery. The Flowers were their only cultural legacy, a carnal art suited to such a solipsistic life.

3 Ranks Prowess - Courtesan’s Finesse
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Dex bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Love for Many
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against multiple partners at once - that is to say that checks are at only -2 for each partner beyond the first. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Secret Affair
May be activated as a free action. The character may make Prowess checks of an appropriate nature (GM’s discretion) against a partner that is clothed or even armoured (normally, making checks against a clothed partner incurs at least a -2 penalty; it is impossible to make checks against an armoured partner). No penalties apply to making checks against a clothed partner; the partner’s armour penalty applies to any checks made against them. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Love of Many
May be activated at the start of the character’s initiative pass. By passing a Prowess check (DC 20), the character can apply two proficiencies they know at once (all circumstantial modifiers apply for each) against a single partner in a turn. Double their Prowess rank bonus for this turn if the check was successful. They may instead attempt to apply three maneouvres (Prowess check DC 30), four maneouvres (DC 40) and so on, in the nature described above. Should the Prowess check fail, they lose their rank bonus to Prowess for this turn. This ability lasts for one turn.

15 Ranks Prowess - Open Romance
May be activated as a free action. The character’s partner(s) and onlookers appear unconcerned about wordly matters, losing themselves in the act of passion. All penalties based on physical circumstances (such as location) and social circumstances (such as prior commitments and relationships) are ignored until they Climax. Should the character break off from the act of passion, the effect will also end.

TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask.

3 Ranks Prowess - Accomodation
May be activated before testing for damage under the Size Matters rules. The character automatically passes their Fortitude saves to minimise damage under the Size Matters rules. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Relaxation
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to increase the effective size of one of their orifices by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the size may be increased in such a manner by a whole size category. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Selflessness
May be activated at the start of a combat turn, when in a situation where both partners are making Prowess checks against each other. For the remainder of this turn, the character may get a bonus of up to twice their Con bonus to their Prowess rolls - all Prowess checks made against the character this turn receive an equal penalty. This ability continues until the character Climaxes, although the penalties taken can be changed each turn.

9 Ranks Prowess - Suffering
May be activated before taking damage as part of sexual congress. For the purposes of any partners or onlookers with the Sadism fetish, treat the damage as the maximum possible incurred (maximum value for damage rolls, treat Fort saves as if they were failed, and so on), regardless of how much is actually dealt. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

15 Ranks Prowess - Melodrama
May be activated as a free action. All partners and onlookers gain the Sadism fetish until they Climax - should the character break off sexual activity, the effects of this maneouvre ends.

TRICKS OF THE GREAT IMPROVISO
The sad demise of the gnome known only as the Improviso (and, since, the Great Improviso) was recorded less than a hundred years ago. The legendary arcanalist walked the world dabbling in the sensual arts, and his desire to acquire undisclosed knowledge is equalled only by his urge to pass it on - the Naughtie Works of the Improviso has since been etched in more than a dozen languages and circulated across the Great Wheel. For those who can afford the time to study it and the intellect to understand it, the Naughtie Works provide many useful nuggets of information.

3 Ranks Prowess - Imagination
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Int bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Adaptability
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against creatures of a different Type - that is to say that such checks are at only -2. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Improvisation
May be activated as a free action. The character may apply their Prowess bonus to the use of any proficiency, regardless of whether they are proficient in it or not. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Subtlety
May be activated at the start of the character’s initiative pass. A single Prowess check made during the turn is so subtle that the partner must make a Sense Motive check (DC: Prowess check result) to notice that they are doing so. This may be used to make Prowess checks against a partner that consents to basic bodily contact - should they pass their check, however, they snatch away and the effect of the Prowess check is negated. This ability lasts for one Prowess check made by the character.

15 Ranks Prowess - Mind Games
May be activated after making a Prowess check against a partner. Unless the partner can resist (DC: Prowess check result), they are fooled into becoming ever more passionate and their physical arousal spurns mental horniness - an Aroused partner also becomes Horny, a Peaked partner also becomes Lustful, and a Climaxed or Ecstatic partner also becomes Delirious. These effects last for as long as the status conditions do.

LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS
Ancient tomes write of the wisdom of a monastic order from ancient times, whose control of body echoed through to a discipline of the mind and purity of spirit. Those few wise individuals that perpetuate the teachings of the tantric ancients welcome new pupils, knowing that with mastery over the body equal control over one’s destiny can be attained.

3 Ranks Prowess - Joy of the Spirit
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Int bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Humble the Mountain
May be activated after character has been aroused to Climax. Although all usual effects of the Climaxed state are applied, no sexual fatigue is incurred. Characters undergoing an ecstatic state instead incur fatigue as if they had merely Climaxed. Once the character attains 12 ranks of Prowess, even the fatigue of an Ecstatic state can be dismissed entirely. This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Dam the River
May be activated after a Prowess check is made against the character. Allows the character to automatically succeed in the Fortitude save to resist arousal. This ability is instantaneous.

9 Ranks Prowess - Climb the Mountain
May be activated after character has been aroused to Climax. The check result of the partner is modified to the minimum required to induce an Ecstatic state - apply all effects of this normally. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Swim the River
May be activated at the start of a character’s initiative pass. For this round, the character suffers no ill effect (adverse status conditions, penalties or Concentration checks) for any arousal they possess. Where relevant, bonuses still apply, as do penalties from horniness and sexual fatigue incurred. This ability lasts one turn.

ART OF THE IMMORTAL NYMPH
The greatest and most glamorous of courtesans pass around a group of postures, techniques and mindsets that serve only to enhance their natural charm. Only those demonstrating professionalism in attitude and prowess are deigned suitable to acquire such knowledge - the Art is seldom acquired outside of the Courtesans’ Guild.

3 Ranks Prowess - Encapsulating Touch
May be activated after making a Prowess check. For one turn, the partner against whom the check was made automatically fails any Concentration checks incurred because of arousal. This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Dreamlike Presence
May be activated as a free action. Passionate exploits with the character take on a surreal edge - any partner or onlooker halves (round down) one penalty incurred due to differing sexual alignment or frets (character’s decision). Should the character acquire 12 ranks in Prowess, one penalty may be totally negated instead. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Beatific Presence
May be activated as a free action. When performing a striptease, exotic dance or similar proficiency with penalties to rise partners above an Aroused state, those penalties are negated, as even the form of the character is enough to induce massive pleasure. This ability lasts until the onlookers Climax.

9 Ranks Prowess - Irresistable Touch
May be activated after making a Prowess check. The character’s partner is not allowed their Fortitude save to negate the effects of the Prowess check - any other saves in place (such as the Will save for someone with Iron Celibacy) still apply, however. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Monumental Presence
May be activated after a session of sexual activity. The bonus attitude change resulting from the Very Social Art rules is irrevocable - although their fundamental attitude may become more unfriendly (or even hostile), the sweet memories ensure that the attitude modifer from their time together still applies. This ability is permanent.

Small additional rule: Circumstances may arise where a person being penetrated is not reciprocating any attention - they are busy with someone else, for example. In such an instance, a ‘default’ Prowess check is made using their Charisma modifer and circumstantial modifiers but no Prowess bonus against the penetrator - this does not count as any action on the part of the penetrated, nor does it impose a penalty on other Prowess checks made.

Well, that just about sums it all up. As ever I appreciate any recommendations and contributions you can put forward - all feedback is useful. With all of your help, we can progress ever onward in our great Plan of Things To Do (last defined by VVrayven)!

DbS


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## kolvar

Though I more am lurking at the moment only (next mcp-test is on thursday, followed by two mcdba-tests) I would like to ask from you DbS, if you could collect the basic rules as you consider them to be done. I am quite sure, that not all of us are sure which one we are talking about (i.e. I am not sure and therefor newcomers will not be either. In addition it will be easier to reference to).
I would put them on the page for easy referencing.


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## Death By Surfeit

For reference, and should you wish to post them on the site, the draft core mechanic rules are on page 1 of this thread, third up from the bottom. They're marked with a great big '*GUCK Core Mechanics v1.0* ' - several additions have been made since then (again, on this thread), including clarifications on Unwilling and Uninterested status conditions, situational modifiers, proficiencies and suchlike.

I will be writing up a draft proposal for the full mechanics as soon as Carnal Arts, Skills and Feats are finalised, all of which should be under our belt within a month.

As ever, suggestions are not just appreciated but crucial. Let's hear your opinions!

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit

Do I scent a hint of laxness amongst the editing board? Come on everyone, the Mayans predict civilisation being destroyed tomorrow, and I hate to see a job left unfinished. When I made my proposal for this project I did so with the explicit clause that I _would not do so on my own_ - it's your own opinions that count. I'm ferreting away at the compilation so there's no reason why you lot should be so idle. Get typing!

Yours drill-sergeant-esquely,

DbS


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## Bastoche

I'm not sure what's left to do? The carnal arts v.01 is a few post before this one, the core mechanics on page 1 and feats were suggested by Wrayven...


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## VVrayven

> Yours drill-sergeant-esquely,




Yes Sir! Reporting in! ::girlscout salute::

1. I think the core mechanic is solid and done. It needs no tweaking IMHO and I say we go with it!

2. Status Conditions. I think the final print form of all these is good. Meaning. I believe this set is the set that should be used:

STATUS CONDITIONS

Note: The Physical and Mental conditions below only affect creatures with a sexual alignment; constructs, elementals, plants, undead, vermin and suchlike are immune to their effects.

Physical conditions (arousal)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text,Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic characters are also considered ‘Aroused’, as Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic are stronger forms of Arousal.

Aroused
Aroused characters are physically aroused and ready for congress, males having become erect and females lubricated. Unless compensated for somehow, any attempts at conventional intercourse without being Aroused beforehand incur a -5 circumstance penalty on the Prowess check. Aroused characters suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions, including combat). Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). An Aroused character that is not yet Horny must make a Will save (DC 10) each round or become so. A successful Spot check (DC 15 male, 20 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Peaked
Peaked characters are in a heightened state of arousal; their skin flushes with blood, their heart rate and breathing accelerates and they are on the approach to climax. The vivid sensations coursing through their bodies cause Peaked characters to suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions, including combat). When this period expires, characters are Aroused instead. They require a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast spells successfully, and if not Horny require a Will save (DC 15) each round to avoid becoming such. A successful Spot check (DC 5 male, 10 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Climaxed
Climaxed characters are overcome by waves of pleasurable sensation, either held in the rapture of an orgasm or teetering on the cusp of one. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 30). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

A Climax typically lasts one round before dissipating, after which a male character is considered Fatigued. A female character can sustain a number of rounds of Climax equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum one) before becoming Fatigued. However, a skilled bedmate or spellcaster may prolong the experience with further Prowess checks or sensual magics; if so, each round spent in Climax after the first one spent Climaxed or Ecstatic deals one point of temporary Wisdom damage unless the character can pass a Will save (DC = Prowess check result or spell save DC). After this period the character may suffer Sexual Fatigue: see pXX for details.

Ecstasy
Not all orgasms are equal and these are the best of them: an Ecstatic character is lost to courses of blissful pleasure, lost to the world and held deeply in the rapture of exquisite sensation. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 40). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -16 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 40 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

An Ecstatic state typically lasts one round before dissipating, after which the character is considered Fatigued. A character brought to Ecstasy must make a Will save or suffer one point of temporary Wisdom damage (DC = Prowess check result or spell save DC). However, a skilled bedmate or spellcaster may prolong the experience with further Prowess checks or sensual magics; if so, each round spent in Ecstasy after the first one spent Climaxed or Ecstatic deals 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage unless the character can pass a Will save (DC = partner’s check result or spell save DC).

Mental conditions (horniness)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Lustful and Delirious characters are also considered ‘Horny’, as Lustful and Sexually Delirious are stronger forms of Horniness. The penalties incurred by arousal and horniness do not stack; a given character only takes one set of arousal penalties and makes one Concentration check for spellcasting, taking the most severe value in each case.

Horny
Horny characters are mentally psyched up and raring to go. Characters can typically become Hornyby their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail; DMs should feel free to set a Will save in such circumstances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 10) for each minute they remain in this state, characters will approach any desirable partners present with advances, regardless of how out-of-place their comments may seem. They need a similar check each round to abstain from sexual activity should the opportunity present itself.

Indecent thoughts cloud the mind of a Horny character, causing them to suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions such as combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal effects, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20).

Lustful
A Lustful character not only desires sex, they crave it - their mind is consumed by lust and they seek to lose themselves in the sweet dreams of a libido without bounds. Such powerful desire seldom has a mundane basis, and can typically only be brought about by powerful sexcraft, carnal magics or exotic substances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 20) each minute they are in this condition, a Lustful character makes moves toward any possible partners, in accordance with their sexual alignment. If rebuffed, characters of evil alignments or low wit may attempt to rape the subjects of their attentions; others are likely to masturbate until they find relief. A successful check allows them to act normally, but with the penalties listed below. Should an opportunity arise, the character needs to make a similar Will save each round to avoid indulging.

Lustful characters suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Lustfulness typically lasts ten minutes, regardless of circumstances, before residing to Horniness. If the condition is brought about by an effect with a fixed duration, Lustfulness lasts that long. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check (DC 10) gives away the condition in another person.

Delirious
A Delirious character is beyond the reach of the world and lost in a private world of sensuality, devoid of the will to do anything but satisfy an all-consuming desire for base pleasure. This is not by any means a natural state - only through the machinations of powerful enchantments or by having their Wisdom reduced to 3 or lower whilst aroused can a character enter this state.

Unless the character succeeds in a Will save (DC 30) each round, they are considered Helpless, incapable of taking any action beyonds seeking out the nearest source of sexual relief and indulging themselves They lack the awareness to make seduction attempts, instead throwing themselves at whatever looks most satisfying - sexual alignment plays a role where there is a choice of partners, but beyonds that a Delirious character will consent to pretty much anything and anyone. They fail any saves they are required to make, and are suggestible as if hypnotised.

If the check is successful, the character may act with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions (twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor), spellcasting only being possible with a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level). They will remain in this state until their Wisdom rises above 3 or, more likely, they pass out through over-exertion. A Delirious character’s condition is obvious to the most casual look.

Other Conditions

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling. An Unwilling character may not attempt any Prowess checks unless they are solely used to resist sexual activity. The character is considered to automatically succeed any Fortitude or Will save to resist sexual advances and arousal and cannot be aroused by mundane means. If the setting supports an Non-Consensual atmosphere, a bonus (1 to 100 or higher) may be added instead of the automatic success. Becoming lustful negates the benefits of being Unwilling. Any attempt at sexual activity with an Unwilling partner is considered an act of rape.

Fatigued
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, any Prowess checks made to stimulate a Fatigued character suffer a -2 penalty. Fatigued characters can sustain a number of Climaxes equal to their Constitution modifer before becoming Exhausted. Undergoing an Ecstatic state whilst Fatigued results in character becoming Exhausted afterward.

Exhausted
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, any Prowess checks made to stimulate a Exhausted character suffer a -6 penalty. As Exhaustion overlaps Fatigue, only apply the largest penalty of the two. An Exhausted character who becomes Climaxed sustains one point of subdual damage per HD. An Exhausted character who becomes Ecstatic sustains subdual damage sufficient to make him pass out, plus an additional point of subdual damage per HD.

I don't think Disinterested on Uninterested need be a status condtion. I think a general MOOD modifier set by the DM should be applied instead. Unwilling as a hard effect, Uninterested is too specific and would only provide a penalty (something a modifier handles better).

3. We need a MASTER list of Modifiers to the Prowess roll. From circumstance to syngery. I'll get started on this, but it really isn't my best field. This should probably be the next big priority.

4. Sex Arts. The system DbS presented is sound and wonderful. We need more arts. I'm working on two right now (a CHA and DEX one). Perhaps have some cascade ones that build on weaker ones too. Maybe... We can add these as we go or finish them all now.

5. Handling NC. Sidebar? Chapter? Large Section? I personally think we should include some feats, tag them as VILE and have a long paragraph discussion its place in campaigns and our personal stance as authors.

6. After this we need feats. I'm working on a master list, but I need a lot of help with this too.

7. Move on to the rest.

<end salute>

I think 1 and 2 are done! Let's move on to 3 and 4 and 5. Best wishes to all. I'll post again soon!


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## Death By Surfeit

Good work, soldier.

I agree that the core mechanics and the status conditions you posted are great; unless anyone has any recommendations or alterations to make, I’ll start wrangling them in to the draft copy (GUCK MECHANICS v0.2) now.

A master set of modifiers is definitely in order – I’ll get scribbling away at once and post them over the course of the next few days. What I would like to know from the group is whether they should affect the Prowess DC, the Prowess roll, or some of each (eg frets and circumstances add to DC, technique inappropriateness and skill synergy affect the roll)?

I look forward to what everyone can come up with in terms of Carnal Arts, whether they be alterations to existing ones (do we want only five manoeuvres in each?) or new ones. In future supplements *touches wood* we could add epic-level extensions to existing Carnal Arts…. *drools*

As regards our position on NC situations, well we could include a reference to them in the mechanics, perhaps a specific feat or two and the explanatory sidebar. We’d have to discuss what exactly IS our stance as authors, although we can embroil ourselves in that a little later on. Just don’t tell KahunaBurger .

Feats are a significant stickling point. The Carnal Arts, in my opinion, caters for everyone who wants to enhance their sexual capabilities by their use, so I would think that the remaining feats relate more toward practical application – more along the lines of the arousing sneak attack, channel sensual energy, coital casting and so on. Again, I’ll post up some ideas and compare notes with the rest of you.

Please, any contributions or material people have for modifiers, feats, carnal arts and such are as warmly received as ever – your editing board needs YOU!

At ease!

DbS


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## Sorn

Layout Corporal Sorn reporting for duty. (I'll skip any references to standing at attention, as I think that this is the wrong thread for that  )

The core mechanics look sound. I second VVRayven's approval. Same goes for her Status Conditions. Excellent job to all involved. 

*Carnal Arts:* I think we can safely say that once the basic rules are in place (which I think they are), we can proceed to the next item on our list. We can always add new CA's as they are conceived (and I really didn't mean to pun here either... it just slipped out). 

*NC stuff:* I think our position is that NC is wrong. We do not condone, encourage, etc. any forced sexual acts.  The mechanics for NC situations are included  for completeness. Be careful and make sure your group is not offended if you include this material. 

One side note we might want to include is the use of spells and other non-modern aspects. Does _Charm Person_ constitute as rape? 

*Epic Level stuff:*  Web enhancement? Shouldn't be too long, so could easily be handled in a WE.


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## Asher

An observation:  what do people think about making CHA a relevant attribute regardless of the situation?  That is, a typical half-orc barbarian type may well be using STR as his relevant attribute and applying that modifier to his Prowess check accordingly, but the penalty for his low CHA score would still be applied to the check as well.

This seems reasonable to me insofar as a strong (or dexterous, or intelligent) but unattractive person (both in appearance and personal "presence") still isn't likely to be as successful a lover as a person who has both advantages.  As another example, Joe Warrior with STR 16 / CON 14 / CHA 10 will still find it hard to compete with Mr. Knight in Shining Armor who has the same physical stats but also possesses CHA 16.  Retaining the CHA mod in (almost) all cases would reflect that general truth.  Not that we have to strive for perfect realism in every way, of course, but this strikes me as a more or less simple, intuitive, and correct rule.

A question: has anyone run tests (I'll bet DbS has) to see what the typical sexual endurance (measured in rounds) of a character is using the Arousal DC table?  That was one of my minor gripes about the rules from a few months ago: there was little means for a character without a fantastic CON score to improve his endurance.  In the real world, ordinary folks can easily learn methods for prolonging an encounter; they don't have to be super-men and -women.  Is there an elegant way to make some such provision for characters (mostly male) who want to improve their chances of making that crucial Fort save?


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## VVrayven

Lt. Writer Wrayven here!

10 Points for your reading Enjoyment!

1. On Synergy
I think only the highest single synergy bonus should apply. This keeps the system intact and allows Rank 9 "Love of Many" to have some flavor and real game effect.

2. Something I forgot: Kinks (this needs to be cleaned up)

Kinks are sexual turn-ons and turn-offs. They are the parts of sexuality that define a character's amourous ideals, much as alignment defines the character's morale and ethical ideals. Kinks are individual descriptors and under most circumstances more than one can apply to a character at once. Kinks cannot be lost or gained in the normal sense. Some advanced sexual methods might "lend" a kink to a person for a short time, but in order to actually aqquire the kink, the sexual activity must be a part of either an intense sexual encounter (gratification 30 or higher), be part of a horrid scarring experience, or be done repetitivly over a long period of time. Character can select 1d4+1 kinks on character creation.

Fetishes and Frets:
This is the lesser category. It will contain the subjects of oral sex, certain positions, submission, bondage, etc... Fetishes are things they are into, Frets are things they aren't. Sharing a common fetish may provide a +1 or +2 syngery bonus (note my comment above, this won't stack with other synergy!). A fetish/fret mismatch might impose a circumstance penalty.

Philias/Phobias:
These can be similar to the above with a stronger effects or all new conditions such as  Nympho... These can apply +3 or +4 syngery or a much larger circumstance penalty.

Sexual Diseases and Conditions can impose kinks.
This all needs a lot more work obviously, but I didn't hear much on it the first time around, yet now I heard DbS refer to a "fret" <hugs for him> I'm glad you liked the idea. So, lets flesh this part of the mechanic out. 

3. Profs... Are we treating Prowess like perform? What was the final verdict? How does this effect tricks like "Improvisation"?

4. "Joy of the Spirit" has a typo, should be Wis instead of Cha, not Int.

5. Can mutliple Arts be used at the same time?

6. How many times can Manuvers be activated? Is there a limit? I think there needs to be.

7. Pleasing Multiple People, Multiple Prowess Checks???
How are we handling this? "Love for Many" seems to imply a -4 for each partner beyond the first with an unlimited ceiling. I disagree. I think we should allow -4 for each person beyond the first and say a max equal to either Dex Mod, or one for every two or three ranks in prowess? Comments? Also this would balance the unlimited partners problem possed by a Rank 12 "Love of Many".

8. Clothing Steps
Those annoying clothes... I recomend at least a sidebar address this as a general modifier to prowess checks. Say "clothing" is one step. "Complex Clothing" such as eleborate, multilayered court outfits might count as two steps. Armor counts as either one step per grade (i.e. light = 1 step, medium = 2, etc...) or light and medium count 1 and heavy counts 2. Additional things like complex or intricate locks, strings, or ties, might increase a clothing or armor by +1 (masterwork???). All clothing steps stack. So a person in clothes and light armor would have two clothing steps. Each clothing step incurs a -3 penalty to prowess checks. Prowess checks instantly fail against three steps or higher unless you have "secret affair" (which reduces all steps by one) or a similar ability. What do you all think? Too complicated? Personally I think is sums up all clothing easily.

9. "6 Ranks Prowess - Selflessness"
I think this is too powerful for Rank 6. Either double bonus from Con on prowess checks or gain the bonus to resist. It is a "sexual combat" trick, and thus shouldn't give too advantages with no penalty.

10. My new two new Carnal Arts:

ART OF THE YEARNING ROSE (Cha)
While some are selfish in their love and others only concerned for their partner's joy, the Way of the Rose uses both, feeding a partner's attentions back to them. The goal is always to bring one's partner the ultimate joy, but only be giving them the power of your own climax. This Art is seldom acquired outside of the Courtesans’ Guild or by the devote followers of the patorns of love and lust.

3 Ranks Prowess - Devoted Thoughts
May be activated as a free action. For one turn, you may automatically succeed any Concentration checks incurred because of arousal. This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Urging Love
You move your body and emmit your own pleasure back to your partner. May be activated before any Prowess check. If your partner has a lower physical arousal than you, you may double your Cha modifier to prowess checks. At 12 ranks you may triple it. This ability lasts until you and your partner's physical arousals are equal.

9 Ranks Prowess - Climax Transferal
As your body submits to armous attentions you may force your partner to do so as well with small cries and deft body movement. May be activated before any Prowess check when you start the round with climax or greater physical arousal. Your prowess check instantly matches the DC neccessary to make your partner's physical arousal equal your own. This ability is instantaneous.

12 Ranks Prowess - Fire of the Mind
Using the energy of your own firery passion you can make it infectious and transfer it to a lover. May be activated before any Prowess check. If your prowess check succeeds a DC 20, your partner's mental arousal instantly matches your own. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Entwined Roses
You have mastered the way of the rose and may always share in your partner's skill or force them to share in yours. May be activated as a free action. During a session of mutual lovemaking, during any given around, you use your partner's highest prowess roll for your own or give them yours. This ability lasts the entire session.

ART OF THE DAZING GRAZE
Several thieves believe in the silent kill to secure their entry into a location without being noticed. Other more sensual intruders perfer to use a more subtle tactic, the art of stunning pleasure and hidden touches.
Prerequisite: FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM, Dex 13+ Prowess 6+

6 Ranks Prowess - Touch from Shadow
You may deftly make a touch without being seen. Free action. Any time a person is denied their dex bonus, you may attempt an unarmed strike against them. If successful, you do no damage but instead make make a prowess check. If you wish, you can remain hidden while doing this, but it requires a Hide check and an opposed Spot check from the target. This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Quiet Passion
Your art allows you to silence a partner. May be activated as a free action. As long as your partner is aroused and you continue making prowess checks to them, they are unable to make a sound. This ability lasts until you cease making prowess checks on your partner.

9 Ranks Prowess - Dazing Touch
Your skills not only silence, but cause a distracting euphoria. Any time you activate quiet passion, Dazing Touch can be activated as well for free. If your partner is in peaked condition or higher, they are dazed and loose all actions for the round. This ability persists as long as they remain peaked or higher.

12 Ranks Prowess - Sleeping Willow
You stun your partner with pleasure and bring them into a euphoric slumber. May be activated as a free action. Make a prowess check (DC 30 if partner is peaked or lower, DC 20 if climaxed or higher). If successful the partner falls under the effects of a <sleep> effect as per the spell cast by a sorcerer of equal level, no save. This ability can be activated after a prowess check.

15 Ranks Prowess - Hidden Strike of Slumbering Pleasure
Free Action. When using touch from shadow in conjuction with a sneak attack you may add your sneak attack damage instead to a prowess check and then must immedeately attempt a sleeping willow manuver. This ability can only be used when the target is surprised.


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## Sorn

Lt. VVrayven: looks pretty good. 

Some thoughts on Synergy bonuses: 
I think if we keep the list short, we can get around the limit without causing problems. I don't really like the idea of messing with a rule that works okay (i.e. all applicable synergy bonuses count). If you think about it, how many different skills could you possibly draw on during sex? Plus, you only get the ones you are actively using at the time. The Master of Bondage will definitely get his Use Rope synergy bonus when he ties someone up, but for just normal sex without ropes, he gets nada. 

While it would be fun to have synergy bonuses for all kinds of skills, let's get a concrete list together and see what we actually have:

Alchemy: don't think so. Just because you know how to make an exotic massage oil doesn't make you any better at using it. However, the item will probably provide a bonus to begin with.
Animal Empathy: unless you are into beastiality, it won't get much use
Appraise: no relation to sex at all, except for estimating the price on a hooker, but alas, no synergy bonus
Balance: potential here, but only for EXTREME sex acts
Bluff: I'd say no, unless for faking orgasms (but that doesn't make you any better at it, so still no). 
Climb: Nope. Let's not encourage people to do it hanging from a mountainside.
Concentration: already used for other things during sex, so no bonus
Craft: see Alchemy
Decipher Script: synergy bonus for masturbation with ancient tomes?? I'd say no.
Diplomacy: don't really see anything here.
Disable Device: reverse of Alchemy/Craft... I'd say no
Disguise: could work for lingerie, but I'd rather just make that an item bonus than synergy.
Escape Artist: for extreme acts only (Kama Sutra contortions)
Forgery: nope
Gather Information: nope
Handle Animal: see Animal Empathy
Heal: I'd say no. Not really "Sexual Healing" here.
Hide: nope (and before someone says something, if you have sex outdoors, you are not really hiding... the danger of being seen is half the fun).
Innuendo: Dirty Talk bonus could be an option. Obviously it won't work when gagged or when the mouth is otherwise occupied.
Intimidate: Nope.
Intuit Direction: Hmm... a bonus to locate the clit? Nah...
Jump: nope
Knowledge: relevant skills could give synergy bonuses. 
Listen: Nope.
Move Silently: Nope
Open Lock: Nope
Perform: Iffy. With the correct artform (e.g. Lapdance) you could receive a bonus.
Pick Pocket: Bonus to manual stimulation (maybe).
Profession: Certain ones could give a bonus. Profession: Prostitute comes to mind. 
Read Lips: Nope
Ride: Nope
Scry: Nope
Search: Nope
Sense Motive: Nope
Spellcraft: Nope
Spot: Nope
Swim: Underwater sex only
Tumble: Nope (any sex act that requires cartwheeling is NOT healthy)
Use Magic Device: Nope. My first thought was to allow a bonus to exotic magical sex toys, but those will provide an item bonus as it is.
Use Rope: Bondage only
Wilderness Lore/Survival: Nope

Bear in mind that many skills can be used to set up a sexual encounter. Perform (Acting) or Bluff for roleplaying, Spot/Search/Listen to make sure nobody is around, Hide/Move Silently for hidden/outdoor stuff, Wilderness Lore to make sure you don't set up shop in an anthill. 

That narrows things down quite a bit, with limitations on what the synergy bonus can be used on.


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## VVrayven

> An observation: what do people think about making CHA a relevant attribute regardless of the situation? That is, a typical half-orc barbarian type may well be using STR as his relevant attribute and applying that modifier to his Prowess check accordingly, but the penalty for his low CHA score would still be applied to the check as well.




Thanks for the input, Asher. The problem here is not that it isn't a good idea, rather that it allows an abuse in that a character with high scores in both STR and CHA could break the DC system.

However...



> Not that we have to strive for perfect realism in every way, of course, but this strikes me as a more or less simple, intuitive, and correct rule.




Yes. you have a point. I think it is worth discussion.



> A question: has anyone run tests (I'll bet DbS has) to see what the typical sexual endurance (measured in rounds) of a character is using the Arousal DC table? That was one of my minor gripes about the rules from a few months ago: there was little means for a character without a fantastic CON score to improve his endurance. In the real world, ordinary folks can easily learn methods for prolonging an encounter; they don't have to be super-men and -women. Is there an elegant way to make some such provision for characters (mostly male) who want to improve their chances of making that crucial Fort save?




Ah hah! Yes. I have run the numbers. You do it by acting as if everyone takes their time and takes 20 on all the rolls. This makes an average encounter with normal people last 6 minutes. (Not an unrealistic number unfortunately, I've found from my experience.) 

As for endurance. Under the present rules there isn't even a fort save. You just go for a set number of rounds... Maybe we should look into this since all the sex tricks have been put into Feat-Arts.


----------



## kolvar

Sorn said:
			
		

> *NC stuff:* I think our position is that NC is wrong. We do not condone, encourage, etc. any forced sexual acts.  The mechanics for NC situations are included  for completeness. Be careful and make sure your group is not offended if you include this material.
> 
> One side note we might want to include is the use of spells and other non-modern aspects. Does _Charm Person_ constitute as rape?
> [/B]



well, there are we again with the NC-Stuff. I think we should do a chapter about it, at least, discussing what it can do in a campaign, to the gameplay and to the players, if it should be used or not. We should not give any special rules, apart from the one, we already got and we, maybe, should drop the "C" from the guides name, because we a) can never be complete b.) there will be probably a web enhancement c.) part 2+ are possible.


			
				Sorn said:
			
		

> *Epic Level stuff:*  Web enhancement? Shouldn't be too long, so could easily be handled in a WE. [/B]



Absolutely


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Keep this work up, troopers, and you’re in line for a promotion… although we’d better drop the military analog for fear of coaxing out progressively more juvenile puns. Incidentally, check out the size of the barrel on my rifle…. I’ve been polishing it (_ad nauseum_).

You’ve all posted far too much material for me to praise you individually, but being the hopelessly overconfident person I am, I’ll attempt to do so anyway.

*Asher*

Cha bonus: It would seem sensible to apply both Cha and another ability to Prowess checks (I did look into the possibility), but as VVrayven said it could easily throw the tables for the purposes of hard focus.

Taking 20: The ‘taking 20’ generalisation was used for people using the Soft Focus variant on an assumption basis – the _minimum_ length of sexual activity is thus six minutes. In Hard Focus, you can apply Fortitude saves, use Tricks in your favour, and it becomes much more tactical – you’re likely to want to prolong the experience to make sure your partner is Horny, conserve Carnal Arts to produce the most intense climax, and so on. There are no ways of improving Fort saves for a partner directly, but hey; it’s always nice to have a risk of, ahem, messing up.
Duration: As stated above, the Soft Focus variant places six minutes as the minimum time for sexual activity using those rules. I wrestled with a few numbers on Excel to try to work out the average duration of (no arousal to Climaxed) for men and women with different Fortitude save modifiers, but with little success. Programming-savvy people may have more luck, however. Anyways, the Hard Focus rules are typically used for multiple – Climaxed sessions where sexual fatigue really starts to come into play.

*VVrayven*

Kinks: Your original post on fetishes and frets was brilliant, VVrayven, and sorry for not accrediting your ideas earlier – they are being added to the draft copy as I type, although I would like to make a recommendation or two:
• The bonuses for fetishes and frets only apply if the nature of sexual activity is appropriate to the fetish or fret – two partners into bondage do not receive the bonus whilst engaged in conventional congress.
• No need to put philias and phobias in a separate category – I prefer the ‘fetish/fret’ terminology, and the descriptions of individual kinks can give the appropriate number and effect – see the Kinks section of the DbS for one possibility as to how this could turn out.
• I’m unsure about the free choice of philias and phobias; although it would be nice intermingling them with a character’s background, people will always wonder exactly _why_ you chose the kinks you did. Perhaps a random system?

The Prowess skill: Current consensus is that it will be treated as a Perform-esque skill (using the list of proficiencies you had so conveniently posted earlier, most likely) – Improvisation is specially designed around this, allowing you to apply your rank modifer even if you don’t have the appropriate proficiency.

Carnal Arts: Multiple Carnal Art manoeuvres may be used at once (perhaps a cap on this?), but they are restricted to a certain number of times per day: each taking of the feat allows you to use the manoeuvres a number of times per day equal to the ability modifier (or 1, whichever is higher).
Make an addition to Selflessness to say that it can only be used in a session of ‘mutual lovemaking’ – this should address the balance issue (it is otherwise equal to one of the old tricks from the d20 conversion).
And before I change the subject, thank you for the Arts you submitted – stylish, balanced and intelligently worked out! If anyone else has anything along a similar vein, write it up and submit it as soon as you can.

Others: I agree that number of Prowess checks be limited to your Dex mod (or 1, whichever is higher). Clothing does need to be addressed, but I have my reservations about the step system, as it may be another mechanic (and a dubious one) on top of those we already have. I would suggest that instead clothing inflicts a penalty of –1 to –5 based on its nature, and caresses be fruitless on an armoured opponent.

*Sorn*
Synergy: I’d have to say that I advocate a single-synergy system; stacking makes things too complex and a truly inventive player could spot all sorts of ways of wangling in different skills – your summary is missing a few, certainly (how could you miss ‘Ride’?). I do like your idea, however, for other skills being made for related checks.

*Kolvar*
NC: Not wishing to get too embroiled in debate (there’ll be plenty of time to do so later), I think NC should be only briefly touched upon; there should be a rules system in place and a page describing the implications of involving it in your campaign.

‘Complete’: I’ve long since dropped the monicker of Complete from the title: what we are creating is extensive, comprehensive and by all means satisfying, but there is a hundred avenues to explore. Anyways what else could we do upon completion – go back to mundane life? 

*Everyone*
Keep those submissions rolling in! At the moment, the most useful content would be a writeup of kinks (*plug* see the DbS conversion,Ch5 for some possible suggestions*), suggestions for a feat list, and anything else you can come up with. The mechanics are now near completion, so lets keep this terrific momentum up!

DbS


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## Death By Surfeit

As I mentioned earlier, I’ve been squirreling away at a new list of more exotic feats. With the Carnal Art feats covering special tricks and manoeuvres, I’ve tried to keep the other feats relating to other activities and conventional adventuring life. Some, no, most of these are ruthlessly purloined from the DbS conversion, and thus assume the presence of certain rules. I have omitted many of the feats featured in previous guides due to a number of reasons (some have been replaced by Carnal Arts, others are a bit naff, etc etc), but what remain are those I consider to be corkers.

I’m considering replacing Body To Die For and Bulletproof Beauty with a dedicated prestige class (unsure what to call it… the pulp chainmail bikini barbarian, basically). Read the suggestions laid out below and get back to me with what you think.

*EXOTIC FEATS v0.1*

BODY TO DIE FOR (General)
You beauty is otherworldy - the mere sight of your body drives potential partners wild.
Prerequisites: Sex Appeal, Cha 17+
Benefit: By acting a provocatively (a partial action), you may force all creatures of compatible sexual alignment to become Horny unless they pass a Will save (DC: 10 + Cha modifier). They may attempt to avoid looking at your sumptuous form: treat as a gaze attack.
Special: Your body’s shape must be clearly visible; you may not benefit from this feat whilst wearing armour or bulky clothing of any kind. By foregoing clothing entirely (rings, necklaces and other jewellery may still be worn), you may instead use this ability once per round as a free action.

BULLETPROOF BEAUTY (General)
Your gorgeous form drives opponents to the point of distraction.
Prerequisites: Sex Appeal, Body to Die For, Cha 19+
Benefit: You may add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to AC, even when flat-footed or immobilised. This bonus does not stack with a monk’s Wisdom bonus.
Special: Your body’s shape must be clearly visible; you may not benefit from this feat whilst wearing any significant amount of clothing, let alone armour. By foregoing clothing entirely (jewellery may still be worn), you can impose a morale penalty equal to your Charisma modifier on all melee attacks against you from creatures of compatible sexual alignment.

COITAL CASTING (General)
Your physical arousal only improves your spellcasting abilities.
Prerequisites: Coital Concentration, 8 or more ranks in Prowess, 12 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: When you succeed at the Concentration check to ignore penalties for arousal, you may add your arousal penalty instead as an arousal bonus to the DCs of all your sensual spells.

COITAL CONCENTRATION (General)
You remain focused even whilst physically aroused.
Prerequisites: Sensual spellcaster, 4 or more ranks in Prowess, 6 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: With a successful Concentration check (DC 10 Aroused, 20 Peaked, 30 Climaxed, 40 Ecstatic), you may act normally, ignoring all penalties for physical arousal.
Normal: Arousal infers penalties on skill checks, attack rolls and saves. Spells require Concentration checks to cast successfully. Unless a Fortitude save can be passed, Climaxed or Ecstatic characters are considered helpless.

CONDUCTIVE KISS (Metapsionic)
You may disguise your powers as a passionate kiss.
Prerequisites: Knowledge of Telepathy powers
Benefit: By kissing an opponent (an attack-equivalent grapple action), you can ease the linking of minds that is the foundation of Telepathy powers. The spells no have ‘Kiss’ range and affect only the creature kissed, but are affected as if by the Hide Power (all displays) metapsionic feats, regardless of whether you possess them.

DIVINE RAPTURE (Divine)
You may manifest your god’s power as raw sensual energy.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn/rebuke undead, ability to channel positive energy.
Benefit: By expending one of your turn/rebuke attempts, you may smite living foes with carnal power. Roll the turning check and damage roll as normal to determine who you can affect; each has a Prowess check made against them (d20 + Cha modifer).

FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM (Carnal Art)
Your experience encompasses the many techniques of this exclusive Carnal Art.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier before resting.

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER (Carnal Art)
You have been taught under the school of master Weil Hung.
Prerequisite: Str 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Strength modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Strength modifier before resting.

IMPROVED ENDURANCE (General)
Your sexual abilities allow you to resist stimulation better.
Prerequisite: Endurance, 1 or more ranks in Prowess
Benefit: You may add your ranks in Prowess to Fortitude saves to resist Arousal effects.
Normal: Mundane changes in Arousal may be resisted with a Fortitude save; magical effects may be resisted as explained in the spell description.

IRON CELIBACY (General)
Your powers of self-control are astounding with regard to sexual matters; your resolve in celibacy protects you from the attentions of others and the insidious effects of sensual magic.
Prerequisites: Iron Will, Abstinent sexual alignment
Benefit: You gain a Will save to ignore the effects of a successful Bluff (seduction) or arousal check on you (DC: check result). This stacks with any other opportunities to resist seduction or arousal. You gain Spell Resistance equal to your character level plus your Wisdom modifier against spells with the [Libido-Affecting] or [Arousal] descriptors.
Special: If the character willingly engages in any form of sexual activity, the effects of this feat are suspended until a character Atones (see Atonement, PHB).

LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS (Carnal Art)
You have researched the teachings of the ancient Tantric school.
Prerequisite: Wis 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier before resting.

MASSIVELY HUNG (General)
You are more than well hung for your race.
Prerequisites: Must be male, must be taken at 1st level
Benefit: Your phallus is half a size category larger than usual for your race (eg. a halfling could count as a small-and-a-half-size partner, or an orc Large).
Special: Certain individual races already count as larger than a normal member of their size category; if they gain this feat, the circumstances stack (ouch).

PSIONIC CARESS (Psionic)
Your touch delivers surges of sensual pleasure to your target’s brain.
Prerequisite: Psionic Touch, Cha 13+
Benefit: If pay the cost of 1 power point beforehand, your hand becomes ‘charged’ with potent carnal energy. If you succeed with a melee touch attack against a target, you may make an Arousal check. Your hand remains charged until you touch the target, else for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
Special: If used in addition to a normal Arousal check, this skill allows you two attempts to stimulate a partner each turn.

SENSUAL STING (General)
Your mastery of the whip allows you to stimulate your foes even through the pain of your whip.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip),Weapon Finesse (whip), Dex 15+
Benefit: Whilst using a whip, a successful ranged touch attack allows you to make Prowess checks against another creature within the whip’s reach as a full-round action. The whip still inflicts subdual damage - unless your victim has the Masochism fetish, they may add the damage dealt as a bonus to Prowess resistance checks.
Normal: Prowess checks can only be made on creatures in the same hex, as a full-round action. An unwilling opponent must be grappled first. Whips can typically only be used to attack, trip, disarm etc.

SEX APPEAL (General)
Your appearance is particularly alluring to the opposite sex.
Prerequisite: Cha 13+
Benefit: This feat confers a +2 bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy and Prowess checks against creatures of compatible sexual alignment.

SMOOCH SPELL (Metamagic)
You can bypass opponent’s protection from your spells to resist by delivering them with a kiss.
Benefit: You can prepare any spell with this feat. Doing so decreases the spell’s range to ‘Kiss’, but ignores any Spell Resistance possessed by the spell’s target. In order to deliver this spell, you must kiss the subject of the spell; if the subject is unwilling, the kiss is an attack-equivalent grapple action.

SUBTLE CARESS (General)
Your knowledge of anatomy can be used to arouse pleasure as easily as it can inflict pain.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack ability, 12 ranks of Prowess
Benefit: When making a Prowess check as a grapple action, you may add your sneak attack damage as a bonus to your roll. Note that this bonus does not apply to other forms of Prowess checks: the capacity to quickly arouse does not equate to a good performance.
Normal: Prowess checks may be made forcefully on a grappled opponent as a full-round action.

TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT (Carnal Art)
You are privy to the Techniques of the Halfling Harlot, as passed down by the trade throughout the ages.
Prerequisite: Con 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.

TRICKS OF THE IMPROVISO (Carnal Art)
You have studied the Naughtie Works of the legendary gnome Arcanalist.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier before resting.

TRUE LOVE (General)
You are truly, madly, deeply in love with someone else.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You may make a Will save to negate the effect of a Bluff (seduction) check made against you by anyone other than your true love – the same Will save may be made to negate any compulsion to hurt (physically, mentally or emotionally) your true love. If the love is reciprocal (that is, both people take the feat), you may double bonuses for flanking and skill cooperation when working with your true love.
Special: You really do have to be in love with another: unless you do, this feat is rendered useless until your differences are made up. And yes, it is possible (although hard) to take this feat multiple times, each relating to a different individual.

WAY OF THE YEARNING ROSE (Carnal Art)
You know the patterns inherent to the Way of the Rose.
Prerequisite: Cha 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Charisma modifier before resting.


That pretty much sums up what I’ve put together. If anyone has any revisions they’d like to make, additions to said list and suchforth, however minor or major, please just post. As stated in the post above, writeups of kinks, a master set of proficiencies or circumstantial modifiers and additions, subtractions and substitutions from the list above are on high priority.

Cheerio for now,

DbS


----------



## Sorn

> Synergy: I’d have to say that I advocate a single-synergy system; stacking makes things too complex and a truly inventive player could spot all sorts of ways of wangling in different skills – your summary is missing a few, certainly (how could you miss ‘Ride’?). I do like your idea, however, for other skills being made for related checks.




While the equestrian sport definitely holds a lot of sexual imagery (the up-and-down motion of the rider on the horse alone certainly is a nice thing to watch), I don't think that knowing how to stay in the saddle or making a horse/camel/donkey jump over an obstacle makes you any better at sex. 

During sex, I don't think there's much danger of being thrown off, and if there is, I don't think Ride will help you out. Hence, I didn't see any need for a synergy bonus for that skill. When I put my tentative list together, I turned off my humerous side (which wanted to include Ride), and thought about which skills are really going to be useful DURING the act itself. As I said, countless skills can go into setting up the encounter, but while you are actively doing it, only very few will actually help you. Hence, with the shorter list, stacking synergy bonuses shouldn't be a problem. 

Now on to the feats... Really like what I see here. A few notes:

FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM seems to be the Dex Carnal Art, yet it has an Int requirement. On purpose or typo?

IRON CELIBACY has a reference to Sexual Alignment. Do we actually have anything definite on that subject?

SMOOCH SPELL: Any change in spell level?


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Hey Sorn,

In response to your queries:

1) Flowers is indeed a Dex-based Carnal Art. Sorry, a copying error here.

2) We have no codified rules for sexual alignment, although some ideas have been thrown around. the DbS conversion (*sigh* again) has some precedent on the matter, but I'd like to hear the thoughts of the board. Certainly it's an easy method of doing so, and very 3rd ed-esque.

3) Smooch Spell has no difference in spell level just as yet; does anyone think it should?

Comments, please, from the rest of the board.

DbS


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## Sorn

Smooch Spell: On the one hand, it bypasses SR, which is kinda big. Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration only give a bonus. On the other hand, the fact that you actually have to kiss e.g. a pitfiend to get it through makes more than up for that. 

Would be fun to deliver a fireball that way...  

So in short, I was more curious as to whether it was an omission or not decided yet or simply no level adjustment. 

I think I will definitely pick this feat for my Enchanter in the upcoming Drow game. SR was one of my biggest worries.


----------



## Asher

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *Cha bonus: It would seem sensible to apply both Cha and another ability to Prowess checks (I did look into the possibility), but as VVrayven said it could easily throw the tables for the purposes of hard focus.
> 
> Taking 20: The ‘taking 20’ generalisation was used for people using the Soft Focus variant on an assumption basis – the minimum length of sexual activity is thus six minutes. In Hard Focus, you can apply Fortitude saves, use Tricks in your favour, and it becomes much more tactical – you’re likely to want to prolong the experience to make sure your partner is Horny, conserve Carnal Arts to produce the most intense climax, and so on. There are no ways of improving Fort saves for a partner directly, but hey; it’s always nice to have a risk of, ahem, messing up.
> Duration: As stated above, the Soft Focus variant places six minutes as the minimum time for sexual activity using those rules. I wrestled with a few numbers on Excel to try to work out the average duration of (no arousal to Climaxed) for men and women with different Fortitude save modifiers, but with little success. Programming-savvy people may have more luck, however. Anyways, the Hard Focus rules are typically used for multiple – Climaxed sessions where sexual fatigue really starts to come into play.
> *




Thanks for clearing that up, DbS.  I've gone back and read this entire thread more closely (I'd skimmed it the first time through) and noted that the answers to some of my questions were already there -- sorry for that bit of laziness.

There are still two matters that I'm unclear on, however.  Firstly, what exactly has become of the Sex Tricks?  Some of them seem to have been repurposed as features of the various Carnal Art feats, yet I noticed that someone (you or VVrayven, I think) made a passing comment to the effect that they'd still be available apart from taking a particular feat.  What's the current thinking on this?

Secondly, some of the initial low-level Carnal Arts appear to supplant the basic mechanic that allows a character to substitute any other attribute for CHA in relevant situations.  Is the idea simply that the "relevant situations" restriction is lifted when you have that particular Art?  Or have the rules changed in that regard?

Further Observations
I've been looking for logical "holes" in the core mechanics, especially the Arousal DC table, and came up with some items that may be worth considering.  Firstly, I'm unable to find any special rule applicable to the attempt to arouse a male character post-climax.  In the NUCK, I believe, there was a flat penalty attached to the SP check, which was appropriate although not a stiff enough (*ahem*) penalty IMO.  Currently it seems that only normal Fatigue (-2) and Exhaustion (-6) rules apply to a male character in this state, which leads to the following strange phenomenon: according to the DC table, any person, however unskilled, can give a Fatigued or Exhausted male character a renewed erection only one round after climax, simply by taking 20 on the roll.  I'd like to see a penalty of some kind applied in this circumstance; perhaps -10 for Fatigued and -15 for Exhausted or thereabouts?

A second strange phenomenon may be illustrated by the following case: Phil the Peasant, of average ability (all 10's and 11's) and no special talent, can *only* bring his cherished wife Paula the Peasant to orgasm by taking 20 on his Prowess check (after bringing her to a Peaked state).  That he can do it at all is good of course, but should it really require an average person's entire concentration (as I interpret "taking 20" to mean) to bring an average woman to climax?  To ameliorate that effect, I suggest we consider making the Arousal DC table represent *initial* DC values that decrease with time.  To wit: each round that Phil keeps Paula in the Aroused state decreases the DC by 1 for her to achieve the Peaked state; likewise, each round he can keep her in the Peaked state decreases the DC for Climax by 1.  This may be more complication than we really want to add to the mechanics, but it does add a good amount of realism.  Achieving an acceptable "realism - complexity" balance is, I suppose, the primary headache of RPG rules design.

I wonder, furthermore, whether there shouldn't be some sort of downside to taking 20, such as forfeiting the opportunity to make additional Prowess checks in the same round, or forfeiting the opportunity to make a Fortitude save to resist Arousal, or both.  Characters who want to "experience" the act more and not focus so hard on the technique they're using on their partner should settle for taking 10, I think.

Okay, that's enough for now.  I hate to throw wrenches into the works, and hopefully I haven't done so.  As ever, take what's useful and chuck the rest.


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## Asher

On further reflection, I think I should mention that many of the above comments are borne out of a desire to retain a feature of the NUCK that I liked: the variable outcome of any particular round (using Hard Focus rules).  The variability was a consequence of having the Arousal DC be a moving target depending on the SP check -- which I agree wasn't very 3E-ish, but it lent some uncertainty to the proceedings.

With the current fixed DC table, if a character can bring his (please forgive the non-gender-neutral pronouns; they're just easier) partner to climax *at all* (likely by taking 20), then he can do so *every time without fail*, for as long as she can keep going.  I'd prefer encouraging the character to actually roll the d20 instead of taking 20 every round, so I'm trying to think of fair, legitimate ways to discourage the "take 20" auto-pilot mindset.

Another suggestion: should we amend the Arousal DC table to permit female characters to return to an Aroused or Peaked state after climax (by supplying DC values for those conditions)?  I liked that feature of the NUCK as well, and although I may be misreading the current GUCK rules, it appears that after climax, both male and female characters revert to "Unaroused" on the arousal progression scale.

A still further suggestion, based on yet another cherished feature of the NUCK: it seems that with regards to the number of orgasms permitted them by GUCK rules, female characters are getting the shaft (sorry, couldn't resist).  Surely an _average_ female can experience more than one climax without becoming Fatigued?  What do folks think about amending the rules to permit them 2+CON mod before becoming Fatigued?

More thoughts later, as they occur to me...


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## VVrayven

I'll field your questions Asher. 



> wonder, furthermore, whether there shouldn't be some sort of downside to taking 20, such as forfeiting the opportunity to make additional Prowess checks in the same round, or forfeiting the opportunity to make a Fortitude save to resist Arousal, or both. Characters who want to "experience" the act more and not focus so hard on the technique they're using on their partner should settle for taking 10, I think.\




The downside is that taking 20 costs 2 minutes, not six seconds. The DC chart is high because all of those rolls are taking place in a six second combat round. On average, the common person will eventually get their partner off. In addition, carnal arts and other bonuses all state that they are effective for a round or in similar vein, meaning most of them loose their flavor and power when taking 20. I.e. you could only use 1 trick if any at all. Taking 20 is a simple and easy way to resolve an encounter.

Sex tricks have been removed. They were cumbersome and more book-keeping and they didn't keep with the 3e style. They have been replaced by Carnal Arts, which give abilities similar to tricks and each costs a feat to five-six tricks of varrying power.

I don't know how the substituting attribute thing is coming along.

I like your idea for the reduced DCs over time. Very heavy on the book-work though. Perhaps we should include something like that in a side bar.

A variable DC table presents a few problems. Including easy balance for the system. The opposing rolls would need to be high, in the 15-20 range, because to NEEDS to be difficult to raise an arousal level for 6 seconds of work. We all talked of opposed rolls a while back and settled on the DC table because it was simple and 3eish. And Uncertainty is still part of the process. Doing anything uniqiue can't be done by taking 20. And if you are rolling on the DC table, it becomes very difficult to get exactly what you want unless you are very skilled.

As for fatigued... Well, first off let me state that 1 round climax condition does not equal 1 orgasm. It is defined as vauge on purpose. DbS's write up of my initial system does seem to be odd though. So. I do believe there should be a modifier to arouse a male after climax. But it shouldn't be too high or two long. I always disagreed that a women couldn't get a man up again for 10 minutes as it was in the old guide, as in my experience that simply isn't always the case. As for orgasm numbers...

I originially had 
Men = Con Mod then fatigued.
Women = to CON then fatigued.

Now it is

Men = 1 then fatigued.
Women = Con Mod then fatigued.

This means a Common women (+0 Con mod defaults to 1). I can sustain 2 rounds (12 seconds) of ograsms before I'm exhausted. Then I can sustain about 4-6 more rounds before I pass out. 

DbS? Do we need to look at this? Two orgasms till exhaustion for everyone with a Con under 14? I agree I think it needs to be more, for men too. What do you all think?

Oh. And DbS, love the feat list.


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## Bastoche

Yep, more. Maybe twice as long approximately.


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## VVrayven

Just some numbers for all of you to think about:

I don't know how much I trust these, but they seem about right.

1 in 5 men is capable of mutliple arousals and hence "sessions" in a short period of time. Most men don't keep this nifty talent past age 30. Too bad.

1 in 6 women frequently experience multiple orgasm. Meaning, they have several one after they other or after they have had one, it reduces the time and effort required to send us over the edge again. I personally think this number is much higher and they just don't know how to experience it right.

Half of all women who masturbate can reach orgasm within 3 minutes. (and about 3 in 5 women masturbate) Half of all men do it in 2 to 6 minutes.

As for how long it takes during sex?

1 in 6 men take under 2 minutes

3 in 6 men take under 5 minutes

2 in 6 men take 5-10 or more (or claim to)

(I think our average number of 6 minutes under easy no stress circumstances is right on the money)

1 in 5 women take under 2 minutes

3 in 5 women take under 5 minutes

1 in 5 women take 10 or more.

Women capable of multiple orgasm can have between 5 and 20 orgasms and usually stop only when physically exhausted. Some women are capable of up to 50 (lucky them).

Based on these number 1 in 4 men are going to be able to get aroused again. I say we keep the 1 male orgasm and then fatigued and work out a rule to penalize them getting aroused whilst fatiguted.

I think women need to be capable of 2-6 orgasms with only a +0 con mod before becoming tired.


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## Asher

*I'll field your questions Asher. *

Thanks.  

*The downside is that taking 20 costs 2 minutes, not six seconds. The DC chart is high because all of those rolls are taking place in a six second combat round. On average, the common person will eventually get their partner off. In addition, carnal arts and other bonuses all state that they are effective for a round or in similar vein, meaning most of them loose their flavor and power when taking 20. I.e. you could only use 1 trick if any at all. Taking 20 is a simple and easy way to resolve an encounter.*

Okay, good -- I hoped that would be the case.  Taking 20, then, creates something almost like "Hard Focus Lite", resolving whether or not a character brings her partner to climax in a reasonable amount of time (2 minutes / 20 rounds), but (unlike Soft Focus rules) permitting the encounter to proceed from there after applying post-climax modifiers.

*Sex tricks have been removed. They were cumbersome and more book-keeping and they didn't keep with the 3e style. They have been replaced by Carnal Arts, which give abilities similar to tricks and each costs a feat to five-six tricks of varying power.*

I agree that they were cumbersome, but I developed a slew of them that would appeal for characters who want to improve their sex lives but aren't interested in specializing to the extent that they'd want to take, say, _Tricks of the Great Improviso_.  Any chance we could offer a Carnal Art for the generalist, encompassing several less spicy but still useful techniques?

*I like your idea for the reduced DCs over time. Very heavy on the book-work though. Perhaps we should include something like that in a side bar.*

It does increase the number-crunching, sadly.  Still, I like that it encourages characters to take their time if they want better results.  The ladies are sure to endorse that concept. 

*A variable DC table presents a few problems. Including easy balance for the system. (snip)  And Uncertainty is still part of the process. Doing anything uniqiue can't be done by taking 20. And if you are rolling on the DC table, it becomes very difficult to get exactly what you want unless you are very skilled.*

I wouldn't want to re-introduce the old variable DC system.  The inherent variability of rolling d20 is good enough.

*As for fatigued... Well, first off let me state that 1 round climax condition does not equal 1 orgasm. It is defined as vague on purpose.*

That's a difficult concept to get my head around.  Can anyone tell me, then, what things can happen within a round in the Climaxed state?  If the definition is vague, that's fine, but I don't really understand under what circumstances the equation "1 round Climaxed = 1 orgasm" wouldn't apply.

Other Thoughts
1) I'd like to see one or two additional Arts available with each Carnal Art feat, to make them more worthwhile for a character to take.

2) Should a character *really* be allowed to bring her partner to any state of arousal whose DC was met by her SP check result?  In a way, that seems like giving characters the "Sexual Expertise" and "Teasing Lover" tricks for free (not that they exist anymore at any rate).  Should the rule be, instead, that the partner is always brought to the highest state of arousal permitted by the SP check result?  Characters who wish to draw things out a bit would take 10, or perhaps even "take 1" if they declare that they're really going to throttle back for a few moments.

3) Although Sex Tricks are out the window, I think I keep reading allusions to Sexual Focus proficiencies and the like.  Maybe I'm thinking of posts made before the decision to axe Sex Tricks from the GUCK, but if not, what is being referred to?


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## Gez

Bah, not a good place to post.


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## VVrayven

Good Points, Asher.



> I agree that they were cumbersome, but I developed a slew of them that would appeal for characters who want to improve their sex lives but aren't interested in specializing to the extent that they'd want to take, say, Tricks of the Great Improviso. Any chance we could offer a Carnal Art for the generalist, encompassing several less spicy but still useful techniques?




Absolutely, in fact, I'm working on two right now that are variable and will hopefully fill the empty void left by the absence of the easy sex tricks. Bear in mind. We also intend to have a sidebar with rules on how to give bonus feats for a sexually oriented campaign so that characters don't have to give up stuff to get good at sex.



> It does increase the number-crunching, sadly. Still, I like that it encourages characters to take their time if they want better results. The ladies are sure to endorse that concept.




I do endorse it.  But as a sidebar and varient rule, not part of the absolute core system. 



> That's a difficult concept to get my head around. Can anyone tell me, then, what things can happen within a round in the Climaxed state? If the definition is vague, that's fine, but I don't really understand under what circumstances the equation "1 round Climaxed = 1 orgasm" wouldn't apply.




I'll try. It's more female phenomenon, though I'm certain some tantric men might manage. It is possible for a multi-orgasmic woman to have several "small" orgasms within half-a-second of each other. Say, four or five or more in a 6 second period. These aren't as intense as an all out normal orgasm, thus each orgasm doesn't count, just the 6 second period in which there were one to several climaxes.



> 1) I'd like to see one or two additional Arts available with each Carnal Art feat, to make them more worthwhile for a character to take.




In the works. Hopefully.



> Should a character *really* be allowed to bring her partner to any state of arousal whose DC was met by her SP check result? In a way, that seems like giving characters the "Sexual Expertise" and "Teasing Lover" tricks for free (not that they exist anymore at any rate). Should the rule be, instead, that the partner is always brought to the highest state of arousal permitted by the SP check result? Characters who wish to draw things out a bit would take 10, or perhaps even "take 1" if they declare that they're really going to throttle back for a few moments.




Well. I see your point. But here is the problem. If you get really good, you CANNOT draw it out, even by taking 10. Partners need to have some control. I think even semi-skilled partners have enough knowledge on how to slow down or speed up, or how to hold back just a little. I don't think it takes a great deal of special talent. So yes, I think you should be able to select any level lower than the number you hit. Or perhaps, any level lower, but you can only reduce the partner's current state by one level? What do you think?



> Although Sex Tricks are out the window, I think I keep reading allusions to Sexual Focus proficiencies and the like. Maybe I'm thinking of posts made before the decision to axe Sex Tricks from the GUCK, but if not, what is being referred to?




Prowess works like perform. Fetishes and Frets are sometimes activated by a partner using a certain form of Prowess. The focuses are still used to activate these kinks. And, some things aren't possible unless you have the prof.

These are all really good questions, Asher. I'll be happy to respond to any others as you have them.


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## Death By Surfeit

Thankyou, Asher, for your contributions, and you too VVrayven for pre-empting the majority of my reply on these issues – you’re becoming dangerously perceptive.

Perhaps I’m being a little vague for the purposes of this thread, but the ‘taking 20’ generalisation was designed for circumstances that use the ‘Soft Focus’ rules – basically another way of saying that ‘out-of-shot’ congress lasts six minutes (each taking 20 Prowess check takes _two minutes_) or more, and both partners are assumed to reach Climax by some method or another.

The actual Arousal DC table refers specifically to the Hard Focus rules, where affairs are sorted out by actual d20 rolls each time – to make the difference clear, I think we should disallow taking 10 or taking 20 when using Hard Focus.

With regards sexual fatigue and ‘recovery’, firstly I would like to remain somewhat adamant as to Sexual Fatigue. From my experience, your average man or woman can certainly continue after the first orgasm, but the affair is tiring – it would not be inconsiderable to impose a rather measly –2 to the check; after all, the average woman is still allowed another 15 (a further _10_ before exhaustion, VVrayven) before being pretty much out for the count. It may not be the most accurate of systems, but it’s (relatively) simple and workable enough.

However, I would advocate, however, increasing it to 1+Con mod (again, minimum 1) where matters were once only Con mod. The perfectionist in me wants to keep everything in neat, memorable numbers as befitting of 3rd ed, but there is little between the attribute scores themselves and their modifiers. Is this a good enough compromise?

Your suggestions are very much valid with regards the male ‘recovery time’ – sexual fatigue itself refers to actual tiredness and thus should not be specially penalised (after all, the condition can last for many hours), but perhaps a circumstantial modifier should be imposed for a period after Climax or Ecstasy; any suggestions for this?

The Sex Tricks have indeed been reworked into Carnal Arts, although most of the focuses haven’t been featured (we decided to avoid simple modifier manoeuvres for fear of threatening balance); there are no plans to have any available to characters who don’t take the appropriate feats. The ‘appropriate circumstances’ restriction may still apply, but it would be a little less strict to reflect the fact that players have paid for the privilege of doing so.

Once again thankyou Asher, for your scrutinising of the system has yielded many points that need to be altered or clarified. More of the same, please!

As I continue to squirrel away at the mechanical compilation, I’ve come up with a more-or-less complete list of circumstantial modifiers. As nobody has posted any other submissions in the meantime, I thought I’d post what I’d dreamt up. This is my no means gospel, and should you have any changes to make, for chrissakes post them – if you don’t, tell me whether I’m on the right track.

So, before I lose myself nattering, here they are:

MASTER LIST OF CIRCUMSTANTIAL MODIFIERS TO PROWESS DC, v1.0

*Subject Status*
+2 when subject of check is Fatigued
+6 when subject of check is Exhausted

*Technique*
+2 unusual technique
+5 inappropriate technique
+10 very inappropriate technique
+4 per subject of the Prowess check past the first, up to Dexterity modifier

*Circumstances*
+2 awkward circumstances (eg. in public)
+5 dangerous circumstances (eg. in combat)

*Fetishes & Frets*
-fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner with the fetish
+fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner without the fetish
+fret penalty (according to fret) when appropriate

*Damage*
+total damage received in round if subject is not masochistic
-total damage received in round if subject is masochistic
-total damage dealt to partners in round if subject is sadistic

Whilst writing this list up, it occurred to me that there was no definition of what constituted an improper technique for the purposes of modifiers, hence as a list of proficiencies also needed to be provided, I thought I’d clarify the suitability to each for given tasks. This certainly adds a tactical element to proceedings, and encourages people to, ahem, experiment a little. They may not be absolutely true-to-life, but at least they’re balanced.

PROFICIENCY APPLICATION v0.1
Proficiencies are done by group for the sake of convenience where possible. Each group consists of multiple proficiencies (shown in brackets), although modifiers are identical within the group.

*Group* (Proficiencies)
Aroused/Peaked/Climaxed/Ecstatic modifiers
Remember that these are modifiers to the DC! Less is more!

*Bondage* (By type – Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10

*Caress* (By type – Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10

*DSM* (Domination, Submission)
Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10

*Masturbation* (Male, Female)
Aroused +2 / Peaked 0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5

*Oral* (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
Aroused +2 / Peaked 0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5

*Penetrative* (By position – Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed 0 / Ecstatic 0
*This use of Prowess is reciprocal – your partner makes a Prowess check back against you, although it is optional as to whether to add Prowess rank bonus*

*Sodomy* (Receiving)
Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed 0 / Ecstatic 0

*Toys* (By item – Dildos, Wizards’ Staffs, etc.)
Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed 0 / Ecstatic 0

And, of course, whatever everyone else can think up.

Looking back on things, it certainly leaves no restrictions on how many proficiencies someone would be interested in – more than 25 are named on the list alone, upwards of 15 of which aren’t too obscure or kinky.

Oh, and whilst we were at it, I was wondering whether there might be the possibility of adding proficiencies to induce horniness rather than physical arousal – after a while I decided that this may be best left as a use of the Perform (lapdance, dirty talk etc) instead – maybe test against same DC as Climaxed (18 male, 20 female), with an optional Will save to resist rather than fortitude.

Sorry for this severe burst of material on my part (it’s the best method of ignoring the fact us British are getting dragged into Bush’s sordid little excursion despite the consensus of our people – although your appreciation doesn’t help matters, VVrayven ), but I hope you can give your opinions as soon as possible… before I post anything else up!

DbS

PS. That is a genuine threat. Don’t try calling my bluff!


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## Asher

> *It is possible for a multi-orgasmic woman to have several "small" orgasms within half-a-second of each other. Say, four or five or more in a 6 second period. These aren't as intense as an all out normal orgasm, thus each orgasm doesn't count, just the 6 second period in which there were one to several climaxes.*




Oh, is that all you meant?  Sure, I understand how that works.  So really all we're saying is, when determining how many "climaxes" a character can experience before becoming Fatigued/Exhausted, we're not counting the number of discrete sensations that could be called "orgasms", only the number of rounds spent in the Climaxed (or Ecstatic) state.  In that case, we're on the same page.



> *If you get really good, you CANNOT draw it out, even by taking 10. Partners need to have some control. I think even semi-skilled partners have enough knowledge on how to slow down or speed up, or how to hold back just a little. I don't think it takes a great deal of special talent. So yes, I think you should be able to select any level lower than the number you hit. Or perhaps, any level lower, but you can only reduce the partner's current state by one level? What do you think?*




Yes, I was a little concerned about the problem that that rule would create for extremely skilled people as well ("Help!  I have a +30 Prowess modifier and can't touch a man without bringing him to the brink!").  And on the other end, I agree that people of the most modest skill and brainpower understand how to slow down or speed up as the need requires, which is why I always thought the "Delay Orgasm" trick, though beneficial in terms of game mechanics, didn't seem worthy of being a special "trick" inasmuch as it only describes what everyone does all the time.

Still, you just can't always precisely control your partner's responses, which is the basic reasoning behind my comments.  Unfortunately, I have no suggestions for how to reflect that fact in the core mechanics that don't involve additional complication and number-crunching.  The most elegant solution I can think of is to allow a character to exercise control (ie, choose a state of arousal for the partner other than the highest permitted by the Prowess check) for a number of rounds equal to their ranks in Prowess, or perhaps ranks in Prowess + INT mod, or some such thing.

Good dialogue, VVrayven; thanks for giving this stuff your attention.


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## Death By Surfeit

*Addendum*

Oh, and to address the issue of trying to slow down proceedings, I would suggest just an extension of the fact that during congress it is entirely optional whether you apply your Prowess rank bonus.

Hence, to allow some choice but also a little unpredictability into affairs, characters could opt to use part or even none of their full bonus in a (rather risky) attempt to slow down.


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## Asher

> *Prowess works like perform. Fetishes and Frets are sometimes activated by a partner using a certain form of Prowess. The focuses are still used to activate these kinks. And, some things aren't possible unless you have the prof.*



Okay, so as per the OGL description for Perform: "The character is capable of one form of performance per rank."  The various proficiencies listed by DbS, then, are available to characters at a rate of one proficiency per rank in Prowess, much as Sex Tricks used to be (but with no minimum number of Prowess ranks attached to any)?  Gotcha.

As an example, Fred the Fighter has three ranks in Prowess and, being a meat-and-potatoes sort of guy, chooses three proficiencies from the Penetrative group: Matrimonial, Rear, and Riding.  In his encounter with Deirdre the Druid, who has a Fetish for the Riding position and a Fret about the Rear position, Fred finds that his DC increases when attempting the latter position, but decreases when he tries the former.

One thing I'm not exactly clear on -- and I think this is just me being exceptionally dense -- is the relationship between the DC modifiers in DbS's Proficiency tables, and those for Fetishes/Frets.  When are the DC modifiers in the Proficiency tables applied?

DbS, I like your suggestion about making the Prowess bonus applicable at will.  It's perfectly intuitive and requires no futzing around with additional numbers.


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## Bastoche

Just for the record, I'd prefer "prowess" to be a separate skill rather than a perfom subskill. Sorry if it was already covered. Class skill for everybody.


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## VVrayven

I love it!

Great work. On the modifiers and everything!

Okay. I have Toys(wand) and I want to start pleasing myself from ground zero: my arousal DC is a 26 (16 +10) cause it's hard to get aroused with just a wand. If instead I wanted to use my caress (breasts) prof to arouse myself, the DC would be a 16. However, if I then started to use my toys (wand) prof... I would have a DC 20 to peak myself and then a DC 20 to climax. (+2 and +0 modifiers).

On the other hand. Say my sorceress friend is trying to use oral (cunnilingus) on me. She doesn't have the prof, and I'm not aroused yet. She has a DC 18 to (16 + 2) and her prowess check suffers a -4 from non-prof. I could however, touch myself with my masturbation (female) prof with a DC of 18 (16 + 2) to arouse myself and let her try from there.

I love the system DbS, excellent work. <blows a kiss>

I think caress should be more defined and I think we should have an optional sidebar with a varient rule for different positions having different modifiers.


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## VVrayven

DbS. One thing. On the fatigue issues. A commoner women (Con 10, hp 4) can sustain only 6 orgasms before passing out (not 10 to 15). Is this right?

1 to Fatigue
1 to Exhaustion
4 at 1 hp a piece untill pass out... ?



> Oh, and to address the issue of trying to slow down proceedings, I would suggest just an extension of the fact that during congress it is entirely optional whether you apply your Prowess rank bonus.




Great, and I mean GREAT idea!



> Just for the record, I'd prefer "prowess" to be a separate skill rather than a perfom subskill




It is already.  It just works LIKE perform.


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## VVrayven

> *This use of Prowess is reciprocal – your partner makes a Prowess check back against you, although it is optional as to whether to add Prowess rank bonus*




Hmmm. Wouldn't this mean four prowess checks are being made in a round? I think a better addem would be:

This use of prowess is mutually exlcusive. It can only be used if both partners engage in it, and their prowess checks are made toward one another. Both partners must make a check, though they can chose to apply their bonus or not.

This also brings up the question of NC. If a person rapes another this indicates that "penetrative" is being used. From a mechanical stand point, does it make sense for the victim to roll prowess (even without bonus) for the rapist?



> although your appreciation doesn’t help matters, VVrayven




Glad I can help.  And I can't help it really. You come up with great ideas. <sly smile>


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## Gez

*Re: Re: Warning! Long Post!*

About feat prerequisites for carnal arts, I still think we should use general feats rather than specific ones. It defeats the purpose of arts (remember martial arts are supposed to be sort of synergy bonuses that you get for free when you have the right skill & feat combo). Keying them to feats who have no other role follow a totally different philosophy.

Here's a proposal:

_IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER
Before arising to become the Master of the Immaculate Forms, Weil-Hung lived a life of monastic seclusion, of quiet contemplation and iron discipline. It is against these principles that he rebelled - it is Weil-Hung’s dogma that life is best experienced by really living - sense achieved by sensuality. After a time of hedonistic travelling, he drew upon his martial prowess and sensual experience to found a school of martial arts that forms a very real war of the sexes._

Prerequisite: Str 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, Endurance, Stunning Fist. (the SF requirement assumes the stunning fist ability is based on knowledge of _ki_ meridian and other mystic energy point of the body).


_FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM
This art was born from the hedonistic aristocracy of Sumfing Oranutha, the noble and the rich who turned their backs on the concerns of the real world in order to immerse themselves in a lifetime of relationships, affairs and, more often than they would like to admit, downright debauchery. The Flowers were their only cultural legacy, a carnal art suited to such a solipsistic life._

Prerequisites: 5 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, 2 or more ranks Perform, Alertness, Lightning Reflexes.

_TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask._

Prerequisite: Con 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, either Endurance, Great Fortitude or Toughness.

_TRICKS OF THE GREAT IMPROVISO
The sad demise of the gnome known only as the Improviso (and, since, the Great Improviso) was recorded less than a hundred years ago. The legendary arcanalist walked the world dabbling in the sensual arts, and his desire to acquire undisclosed knowledge is equalled only by his urge to pass it on - the Naughtie Works of the Improviso has since been etched in more than a dozen languages and circulated across the Great Wheel. For those who can afford the time to study it and the intellect to understand it, the Naughtie Works provide many useful nuggets of information._

Prerequisite: Int 13+, 6 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, Iron Will.

_LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS
Ancient tomes write of the wisdom of a monastic order from ancient times, whose control of body echoed through to a discipline of the mind and purity of spirit. Those few wise individuals that perpetuate the teachings of the tantric ancients welcome new pupils, knowing that with mastery over the body equal control over one’s destiny can be attained._

Prerequisite: Wis 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess, Endurance, Iron Will

_ART OF THE IMMORTAL NYMPH
The greatest and most glamorous of courtesans pass around a group of postures, techniques and mindsets that serve only to enhance their natural charm. Only those demonstrating professionalism in attitude and prowess are deigned suitable to acquire such knowledge - the Art is seldom acquired outside of the Courtesans’ Guild._

Prerequisite: Cha 13+, 3 or more ranks in each of Sexual Prowess, Bluff, and Perform, Skill Focus (Perform or Sexual Prowess)


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## Gez

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *However, I would advocate, however, increasing it to 1+Con mod (again, minimum 1)*




In the d20 system, this is called 1+Con _bonus_ ("ability modifier" is in the -5/+whatever ranger, "ability bonus" is in the 0/+whatever range, being equal to 0 when the modifier is negative).


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## Asher

A few thoughts:

1) I favor disallowing the ability to "take 20" for Hard Focus rules, as DbS said.  However, I'd like to permit "taking 10", simply because it's convenient and doesn't unbalance or break anything as far as I can tell.

2) I think every character should be understood to have proficiency in Masturbation:self, unless their sexual alignment prohibits it.  For one thing, self-stimulation is not at all the same kind of expertise as stimulating someone else of the same sex.  Also, it makes little sense to me that a heterosexual female character with 1 Prowess rank, for example, should have to take Masturbation:female as a proficiency just to get herself off in private -- she will *never* meet that DC 20 if she has the -4 Prowess check penalty for lacking the necessary proficiency.

3) The example above isn't entirely accurate, because Masturbation adds +2 to the DC for Climax.  Thus, even if we grant the female character an innate Masturbation:self proficiency, she _still_ won't meet that DC 22 with only 1 rank in Prowess to add to her roll.  This and other strange phenomena result from the DC table as it now stands.  Another scenario which I tested is that of a newly wedded Commoner couple, neither of whom has any Prowess ranks or proficiencies.  With his -4 Prowess check penalty for lacking proficiency, the husband will statistically *never* meet the DC 20 necessary to bring his wife to climax.  In short, the sexual novice is completely screwed, and not in the way that he or she wants to be.

4) I've been testing the variant rule I mentioned a couple of days ago, wherein the DC values for higher states of arousal reduce gradually over time as the character remains aroused.  It seems to work well as an antidote to the aforementioned problems: if a novice simply keeps at it persistently enough, he's likely to succeed eventually.  If we don't want to monkey with the DC table, I'd definitely include the "gradual DC reduction" rule as a sidebar.

You can probably tell by now that the Commoner is my yardstick to see whether a rule passes the realism test.  If there's a big discrepancy between what an average person can do in the game and what an average person can do in real life, that makes me dissatisfied with the rules.  Hopefully I'm simply overlooking some factor that eliminates the strange scenarios I described above; if I am, please educate me!


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## Death By Surfeit

Nice to see so many contributions from everyone – keep up the good work! Relating toward everyone else’s posts and comments:

1) Regarding duration: Looking back over the Draft Mechanics v0.1, I seem to have completely omitted a part of the Sexual Fatigue rules. Please consider the section revised to the effect that:

*Females* can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax OR 1 round of Ecstasy before being considered Fatigued. After this, they can sustain a further (Con score) rounds of Climax OR 1 round of Ecstasy before being considered Exhausted.
*Males* can sustain 1 round of Climax OR Ecstasy before being considered Fatigued. After this, they can sustain a further (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax OR 1 round of Ecstasy before being considered Exhausted.

Hence, a female commoner could sustain 1 till Fatigue / 10 till exhaustion / 4 till unconsciousness or 15 rounds of Climax before passing out entirely. A male could sustain 1 till Fatigue / 1 till exhaustion / 4 till unconsciousness or 6 rounds of Climax before going out for the count.

Somehow, although it had always worked like this in my head, I never transcribed it onto the Draft Mechanics (hence the confusion). My fault, sorry.

2) Regarding the rules on appropriateness, ranks in Perform and such: congratulations to VVrayven and Asher, who have demonstrated the rules with precision and flair. Bonuses to VVrayven for showing the tactical thinking required!

Hopefully these modifiers go some way toward stopping the ‘Prowess-maxed character bringing orgasm with a touch’ problem without hampering ordinary folk’s enjoyment too much. It also encourages resourcefulness and experimentation with different uses of the skill – and of course a little variation is seldom a bad thing.

One small discrepancy with your example, VVrayven: not being proficient in an, um, proficiency does not incur any statistical modifiers (as it would based on weapon proficiencies), but instead removes the opportunity to add any rank bonus to the check (as it would with Perform performance techniques). The language is getting confusing - perhaps a renaming is in order for ‘proficiencies’? Oh, and your suggestion for different modifiers for different techniques is intriguing – care to go into greater detail?

In answer to your question, Asher, the modifiers to the DC come into play when an inappropriate proficiency (form of Prowess) is applied. The kink bonuses and penalties are applied whenever something you do coincides with one of their fetishes or disagrees with one of their frets, which could be penetrative sex, clerics, magical devices or whatever.

3) Regarding reciprocality: Your explanation is a good one, VVrayven; again your contributions are of brilliant quality, although mine in this case are a little vague. In the round in which the Prowess check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back on their initiative pass. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.

Basically this accounts for situations (perhaps including NC situations) where the person is ‘just lying there’ – they are (vaguely) pleasing to their partner, but would be better if they put some effort in; meanwhile, they are free to do other things as they wish.

_Example: Following a somewhat rowdy night at the tavern; a lot of drink; a few passes and one particularly adventurous dare, Linda the rogue is involved in a threesome with Gus the barbarian and Torg the fighter.

Linda has a penchant for rough sex, and already Aroused. She is currently using her proficiency in Oral (Fellatio) to pleasure Torg, who is not yet Aroused. Her DC is a base of 13, plus 2 for use of an inappropriate technique for a total of 15.

Meanwhile, Gus (also Aroused) is penetrating Linda from behind, using his proficiency in Penetrative (Rear). The DM rules that this is sufficient to satisfy Linda’s penchant for rough sex, and so applies the reduction to DC listed under the fetish. His DC is a base of 18, plus 2 for use of an inappropriate technique, minus 2 for Linda’s fetish, for a total of 18.

On Linda’s turn, she makes a Prowess check back against him, but decides to let him do all the work (not applying Prowess bonus) in favour of concentrating on Torg. The DC for this is a base of 14, plus 2 for technique, for a total of 16.

Torg is doing his best to return the favour by caressing Linda’s breasts – base DC 18, plus 2 for inappropriate technique, for a total of 20. As he has no appropriate proficiency (he hasn’t really done this type of thing before), he cannot add his Prowess rank bonus to this roll._

That pretty much sums up the recent additions.

4) Regarding Carnal Arts: Gez, whilst your suggestions are fitting, they have real ramifications for low level characters (anyone besides a monk would be effectively denied the Immaculate Forms, for example). Whilst it may deviate from the flavour of Martial Arts, I am wholly in favour of specific-feat Carnal Arts – you pay for what you get, and get what you pay for. That way nobody is denied Carnal Arts because they don’t have the extensive requisite feats, and neither do they receive a Carnal Art they didn’t work toward or desire for their character.

It may be possible to do general-feat Carnal Arts, but they would probably be best left as an option or alternative.

5) As ever, feedback from everyone. I’m diligently writing up the Core Mechanics (a harder task that I first thought), and I need all of your input to aid me. So please, any recommendations and contributions will be gratefully received.

Cheers,

DbS


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## Asher

Ahhh...very good, I understand now.  That -4 penalty for lack of proficiency that VVrayven used in her example was throwing me off and generated incorrect numbers.  With the penalty gone, things look much better.

Still, at this point I still wonder whether it isn't prohibitively difficult to achieve a high Gratification score for an encounter.  I ran a scenario using two 5th level characters (wizard and rogue), both of whom had maxed out the Prowess skill (8 ranks) but had not bought any Carnal Arts.  I stuck to using only the techniques in which the characters were proficienct, used the variant rule in which DC's decrease gradually from prolonged arousal, and permitted "take 10" but not "take 20".  The scenario ran for about thirty rounds, ended with both characters Exhausted, and yielded a Gratification score of 6 for each partner.

Subjectively, it seems as though two 5th level characters with maxed-out Prowess ranks should be able to do somewhat better than that in half an hour's time.  The main culprit behind the low Gratification scores was the surpassing difficulty of beating Climax DC's by more than 5, especially for the female character, and *especially* after Exhaustion set in.  At that point, the 8 skill ranks and 2-3 bonus points for ability scores barely sufficed to meet DC's at all -- but even earlier on, those extra 10 or 11 points only yielded a single Climax worth more than 1 Gratification point.  Of course, in this scenario I let Exhaustion set in too early for the female (having not read DbS's last post), and maybe things would have turned out differently without incurring that -6 penalty so early in the encounter.  I'll try running a similar scenario, correcting those mistakes.


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## Asher

Okay, I re-ran the same scenario using DbS's rules governing male and female endurance before Exhaustion, and came up with results more in line with what I'd expect: a Gratification of 12 for the female character and 7 for the male.  Sounds fair to me.


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## Death By Surfeit

*Extremely long post - part 1*

After much squirreling away, comparing notes, consulting forums and a good stretch of typing for Britain, I have managed to birth (drum roll, please) the first complete copy of the core mechanics!

It’s a little scruffy around the edges and needless to say is in dire need of everyone’s attention and revision, but is nevertheless our very first draft copy. If everyone, and I mean everyone, on the editing board could look through scrupulously, point out flaws, make suggestions, post new material and all of the usual affairs, we can come to some sort of finalisation and move on to the bounteous realm of the rest of the guide.

And if everyone goes quiet, I will track each of you down and tickle you in your sleep.

Nevertheless, have a read through, download, post on the site or elseways do as you wish to the draft GUCK, which is included below for your reading pleasure!

- - -

*GUIDE TO UNLAWFUL CARNAL KNOWLEDGE – COMPLETE CORE MECHANICS V0.2*

The core mechanics found below are the product of many fruitful imaginations combining over at the EnWorld forums in what began as an editing and resulted in practically a rewrite of the d20 GUCK conversion. The rules below are intended to be homogenous, make reasonable sense and easily fit in to any campaign that would like to use them.

Before people start complaining about the quality of writing, presentation and suchlike, please bear in mind this is purely an accumulation of our work so far – impetuous individuals such as yourselves who could not wait for the full edition should be less picky. The draft copy below was designed to be simple, and as such lack the fancy titles, charts and other commodities that would be expected of the finished product, so don’t complain. Instead, you would be best advised to pop over to the ‘GUCK development forum’ at the EnWorld forums and mustering whatever ideas, advice and expressions of delight you can come up with.

Cheers,

Death By Surfeit, on behalf of VVrayven, Asher, Sorn, Kolvar, Bastoche, Gez et al.

March 2003

*STATUS CONDITIONS*
The following are additions to status conditions as found in Chapter 2 of the DMG. Physical arousal and mental horniness only affect those creatures with an active sexual alignment – constructs, elementals, plants, undead and vermin are immune to the following unless specifically stated otherwise.

PHYSICAL CONDITIONS (AROUSAL)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic characters are also considered ‘Aroused’, as Peaked, Climaxed and Ecstatic are stronger forms of Arousal.

Aroused
Aroused characters are physically aroused and ready for congress, males having become erect and females lubricated. Unless compensated for somehow, any attempts at conventional intercourse without being Aroused beforehand incur a -5 circumstance penalty on the Prowess check. Aroused characters suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions, including combat). Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). An Aroused character that is not yet Horny must make a Will save (DC 5) each round or become so. A successful Spot check (DC 15 male, 20 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Peaked
Peaked characters are in a heightened state of arousal; their skin flushes with blood, their heart rate and breathing accelerates and they are on the approach to climax. The vivid sensations coursing through their bodies cause Peaked characters to suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions, including combat). When this period expires, characters are Aroused instead. They require a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level) to cast spells successfully, and if not Horny require a Will save (DC 10) each round to avoid becoming such. A successful Spot check (DC 5 male, 10 female) will give away this condition in another person.

Climaxed
Climaxed characters are overcome by waves of pleasurable sensation, either held in the rapture of an orgasm or teetering on the cusp of one. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 30). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

Ecstasy
Not all orgasms are equal and these are the best of them: an Ecstatic character is lost to courses of blissful pleasure, lost to the world and held deeply in the rapture of exquisite sensation. They are considered Helpless whilst the condition lasts (usually one round) unless they can make a Fortitude save (DC 40). If they are successful, they may act as if slowed but with a -16 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions. Spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 40 + spell level) to be successful. The condition is obvious to all onlookers.

MENTAL CONDITIONS (HORNINESS)
These conditions overlap (do not stack) with each other; a given character only suffers penalties for the most profound of them. For the purposes of rules text, Lustful and Delirious characters are also considered ‘Horny’, as Lustful and Sexually Delirious are stronger forms of Horniness. The penalties incurred by arousal and horniness do not stack; a given character only takes one set of arousal penalties and makes one Concentration check for spellcasting, taking the most severe value in each case.

Horny
Horny characters are mentally psyched up and raring to go. Characters can typically become Horny by their own discretion unless extenuating circumstances prevail; DMs should feel free to set a Will save in such circumstances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 10) for each minute they remain in this state, characters will approach any desirable partners present with advances, regardless of how out-of-place their comments may seem. They need a similar check each round to abstain from sexual activity should the opportunity present itself.

Indecent thoughts cloud the mind of a Horny character, causing them to suffer a -2 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, skill checks and saves for five minutes (one minute if in inappropriate conditions such as combat), and twice this amount to saves against arousal effects, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 10 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check will give away this condition in another person (DC 20).

Lustful
A Lustful character not only desires sex, they crave it - their mind is consumed by lust and they seek to lose themselves in the sweet dreams of a libido without bounds. Such powerful desire seldom has a mundane basis, and can typically only be brought about by powerful sexcraft, carnal magics or exotic substances.

Unless they can make a Will save (DC 20) each minute they are in this condition, a Lustful character makes moves toward any possible partners, in accordance with their sexual alignment. If rebuffed, characters of evil alignments or low wit may attempt to rape the subjects of their attentions; others are likely to masturbate until they find relief. A successful check allows them to act normally, but with the penalties listed below. Should an opportunity arise, the character needs to make a similar Will save each round to avoid indulging.

Lustful characters suffer a -4 arousal penalty to all non-sensual attack rolls, and twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor. Lustfulness typically lasts ten minutes, regardless of circumstances, before residing to Horniness. If the condition is brought about by a spell effect with a fixed duration, Lustfulness lasts that long. Successful spellcasting requires a Concentration check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful Sense Motive check (DC 10) gives away the condition in another person.

Delirious
A Delirious character is beyond the reach of the world and lost in a private world of sensuality, devoid of the will to do anything but satisfy an all-consuming desire for base pleasure. This is not by any means a natural state - only through the machinations of powerful enchantments or by having their Wisdom reduced to 3 or lower whilst aroused can a character enter this state.

Unless the character succeeds in a Will save (DC 30) each round, they are considered Helpless, incapable of taking any action beyond seeking out the nearest source of sexual relief and indulging themselves They lack the awareness to make seduction attempts, instead throwing themselves at whatever looks most satisfying - sexual alignment plays a role where there is a choice of partners, but beyond that a Delirious character will consent to pretty much anything and anyone. They fail any saves they are required to make, and are suggestible as if hypnotised.

If the check is successful, the character may act with a -8 arousal penalty to all non-sensual actions (twice this amount to saves against arousal, seduction and spells with the [Arousal] descriptor), spellcasting only being possible with a Concentration check (DC 30 + spell level). They will remain in this state until the spell’s duration expires (if the condition was caused by a spell effect), more likely, they pass out through over-exertion. A Delirious character’s condition is obvious to the most casual look.

OTHER CONDITIONS

Unwilling
If a character does not wish sexual activity, they may declare themselves Unwilling as a free action. At the DM’s option, arousal and horniness may be impossible to incur in an Unwilling partner. Otherwise, the character gets a bonus of between 1 and 20 (according to the campaign setting) to Fortitude and Will saves to resist arousal and horniness, and to Concentration checks made under their effect. Becoming horny negates the benefits of being Unwilling.

Fatigued
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, the DC for Prowess checks to arouse a Fatigued character is increased by 2.

Exhausted
In addition to standard penalties to Strength and Dexterity, the DC for Prowess checks to arouse an Exhausted character is increased by 6. As Exhaustion overlaps Fatigue, only apply the largest penalty of the two.

*THE PROWESS SKILL*
This skill is in addition to the skills normally available to characters, as found in Chapter 3 of the PHB.

PROWESS (Cha)
Use this skill to bewilder your sexual partners with an array of exotic techniques. Prowess is a class skill for all characters.

As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess gives you a technique within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks – you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate technique.

The techniques are listed below, organised into groups. Each technique found is chosen from those examples in brackets. If the group is open-ended, you are free to design your own additions, providing they remain within the nature of those preceding it.

Proficiencies:
Bondage (By type – Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
Caress (By type – Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
DSM (Domination, Submission)
Masturbation (Male, Female)
Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
Penetrative (By position – Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Sodomy (Receiving)
Toys (By item – Dildos, Wands, Wizards’ Staffs, etc.)

Special: Regardless of circumstances, it is impossible to take 10 or take 20 on a Prowess check, due to its unpredictable nature.

*THE PROWESS CHECK*
Performing a Prowess check on someone (including yourself) is a miscellaneous full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile.

It is possible to make Prowess checks against more than one partner as the same full-round action; if your character wishes to do so, a penalty of –4 per additional partner is applied to all checks. You cannot make more simultaneous checks than (1+Dex bonus) at any time, unless otherwise stated.

When making a Prowess check, you may apply as much or as little of your rank bonus as you desire, but the declaration must be made BEFORE you make the roll. Consult the table below for DCs according to your partner’s present condition, where the numbers on the left represent a male partner, and the ones on the right a female one.

After the check is made, the partner’s Arousal is changed to fit the highest DC the character achieved. They may resist this change by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC equal to the character's Prowess check, adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <7/<9 7/9 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <4/<5 4/5 8/10 16/20 32/40

It is possible to keep a partner in Climax or Ecstasy for more than one round, although this may result in adverse effects (see Status Conditions for more details). In order to do so, use the DCs listed for a Peaked character, but double it for each round spent in Climax or Ecstasy. Thus, a Peaked male character would be DC 16 to raise to Climaxed initially, DC32 the round after that, DC 48 on the third round and so on. If the DC for Climaxed is not sustained, male characters lose all arousal; female characters reside to Aroused instead.

However, after the first round spent in Climax or Ecstasy, each further round spent in Climax does one point of temporary Wisdom damage; each round spent Ecstatic does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage.

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there. In the round in which the check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back on their initiative pass. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.

CIRCUMSTANTIAL MODIFIERS
The DC of the above Prowess check is subject to modifiers based on the technique used, the external circumstances, the sexual inclinations of those involved, and so on. Where relevant, apply the modifiers listed below (largest modifier from each sec

Subject Status
+2 when subject of check is Fatigued
+6 when subject of check is Exhausted
+8 when subject of check is male, within 10 minutes of last Climax

Technique
+2 unusual technique
+5 inappropriate technique
+10 very inappropriate technique
+4 per subject of the Prowess check past the first

Circumstances
+2 awkward circumstances (eg. in public)
+4 dangerous circumstances (eg. in combat)

Fetishes & Frets
-fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner with the fetish
+fetish bonus (according to fetish) when used on a partner without the fetish
+fret penalty (according to fret) when appropriate

Damage
+total damage received in round if subject is not masochistic
-total damage received in round if subject is masochistic
-total damage dealt to partners in round if subject is sadistic

Sexual Alignment
+2 subject is of an unsuitable sexual alignment
+4 subject is of an incompatible sexual alignment

TECHNIQUE SUITABILITY
Not all Prowess techniques have equal application – some are best used to initially Arouse a partner, whilst others are best for bringing them to Climax. Switching techniques is considered a move-equivalent action, meaning that Prowess checks cannot usually be used in the same round. Listed below are the modifiers to the DC for bringing a partner to different levels of arousal (as mentioned under circumstantial modifiers), based on groups of techniques.

Group - Aroused / Peaked / Climaxed / Ecstatic DC modifiers

Bondage - Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10
Caressing - Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10
DSM - Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10
Masturbation - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
Oral - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
Penetrative - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Sodomy - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Toys - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0

SEXUAL FATIGUE
Congress, whilst enjoyable, is often a tiring experience for those involved. As such, partners may induce a state of Fatigue, Exhaustion or even unconsciousness as a result of overstretching themselves. These conditions are as those described in Status Conditions, above, and reside at an identical rate.

Male characters can sustain one round of Climax or Ecstasy before being considered Fatigued. Once Fatigued, they can sustain a further (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or a single round of Ecstasy before being rendered Exhausted. Furthermore, males undergo a ‘recovery period’ of 10 minutes after each Climax or Ecstatic state, in which the DC to all Prowess checks made against them is increased by 8; this does not not stack with modifiers for fatigue.

Female characters can sustain (1 + Con bonus) rounds of Climax or a single round of Ecstasy before being considered Fatigued. Once Fatigued, they can sustain a further (Con score) rounds of Climax or a single round of Ecstasy before being considered Exhausted.

Once Exhausted, characters are best advised to steer clear of sexual activity: each round of Climax deals 1 point of subdual damage per HD possessed by the character. Each round of Ecstasy in this state deals sufficient subdual damage to render the character unconscious, plus an additional point of subdual damage per HD.

SIZE MATTERS
So the saying goes, and with the myriad of diverse species of the Great Wheel are concerned, it becomes an ever more significant factor. When using a Penetrative, Sodomy, Toys or similar technique, compare the size of the phallus to the orifice concerned and consult the table below for the effects to the recipient.

The owner of the phallus may also be damaged – where the difference is one-and-a-half size categories or more, the owner of the phallus receives damage as if the difference was one size category than it actually is.

Note that although larger phalli give bonuses to Prowess checks, the damage caused makes the check harder – in most cases, it’s best to have an even match.

Smaller still: Fruitless. No appreciable sensation of any kind.
Two sizes smaller: Pathetic. Both Prowess checks incur a -8 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -4.
One and a half sizes smaller: Dismal. Both Prowess checks incur a -6 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -3.
One size smaller: Disappointing. Both Prowess checks incur a -4 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -2.
Half a size smaller: Weak. Both Prowess checks incur a -2 size penalty. When using the Soft Focus rules, this penalty is reduced to -1.
Same size: No special rules.
Half a size larger: Chunky. Both Prowess checks gain a +2 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage each turn, unless they can succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 10): work affairs out hard-focus in case of incurring unconsciousness (!).
One size larger: Dangerous. Both Prowess checks gain a +4 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 10 + partner’s HD) reduces this to just one point per turn. Apply hard-focus rules, as unconsciousness is likely.
One and a half sizes larger: Perilous. Both Prowess checks gain a +6 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of subdual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 15 + partner’s HD) reduces this to just one point per turn. Apply hard-focus rules, as unconsciousness is likely.
Two sizes larger: Lethal. Both Prowess checks gain a +8 size bonus. The recipient incurs 1 point of actual damage for each Hit Dice they possess each turn. A successful Fortitude save (DC: 20 + partner’s HD) reduces this to subdual damage. Use hard focus rules: affairs are likely to be very brief.
Larger still: All pain, no gain. Concerted attempts simply incur damage as if two sizes larger: see above.

*A VERY SOCIAL ART*
Noteworthy performances can result in NPC attitude changes, allowing you to sleep your way to success if necessary. A given character can only have their attitude shifted by one performance at a time; the attitude changes overlap (do not stack). These alignment changes are not permanent; they are the result of emotional attachment, and your own actions may negate this bonus as the DM sees fit.

A character whose attitude is shifted one rank above Helpful is considered charmed, if shifted two ranks above Helpful they’re considered dominated, three changes and they’re considered to be in your thrall, all as the spells of the same name. Use one of the two systems below to work how satisfying a partner you have been:

Soft Focus rules:
When two consenting partners are involved and you wish to keep affairs out of the spotlight, simply make a Prowess roll for each partner, taking all appropriate modifiers into account, and consult the Gratification table. Techniques, Carnal Arts and other special mechanics are not used on this roll.

For the purposes of game mechanics, both partners are assumed to take 20 on each individual Prowess check necessary; hence under usual situations, a check under Soft Focus takes a minimum of six minutes, and both partners will Climax once.

(Author’s Note: This will be a sidebar variant rule in the final copy)

Hard Focus rules:
To devote more attention to a given lovemaking session, work things out round by round using the Prowess check mechanics, as explained in ‘The Prowess Check’. When a character becomes Climaxed, they receive a gratification point for every 5 points by which the test exceeded the necessary DC, rounded down to a minimum of 1. Keep a tally of this for each partner and consult the Gratification table at the end of proceedings.

Table X-XX: Gratification Table:
Soft Focus / Hard Focus / Performance
<10 / <1 / Disappointing
10 / 1 / Satisfactory
15 / 2 / Enjoyable
20 / 5 / Memorable
30 / 10 / Fantastic
40 / 15 / Extraordinary
50 / 20 / Heavenly
60 / 25 / Rapturous

Disappointing performance - You have failed to satisfy your partner, leaving them yearning for more with little place to turn to. The frustration your partner feels manifests in a negative attitude change (from Neutral to Unfriendly, for example) for the next week.

Satisfactory performance - Your partner has achieved satisfaction, and that is always good, as we all know. But it was nothing remarkable.

Enjoyable performance - You exhibited a bit more flair than the standard lover and may have even showed your partner a new trick. Your partner experiences one positive attitude change (from Neutral to Friendly, for example) for the next day.

Memorable performance - Your sensual skills have made an impression that will serve as a delightful memory for some time. Your partner experiences one positive attitude change (from Neutral to Friendly, for example). With time you may get a local reputation as an artful lover.

Fantastic performance - Even the most jaded of lovers would be impressed by the wondrous talent you’ve displayed. Your partner experiences two positive attitude changes (from Neutral to Helpful, for example) for the next day, and one positive attitude change thereafter. With time you may garner a regional reputation as a lover of significant note.

Extraordinary performance - You are likely the best lover your partner has ever experienced, leaving them memories they will keep for the rest of their lives. Your partner experiences two positive attitude changes (from Neutral to Helpful, for example) hereafter. With time, your reputation as a lover may even spread nationwide.

Heavenly performance - Things were done in the bedroom that are the stuff of legends and ribald pornographic etchings! The gods and goddesses of lust would be proud of you. In time, you may even draw their notice and be whisked away to visit them! Your partner experience three positive attitude changes (from Neutral to charmed, for example) for the next day, and two positive attitude changes thereafter.

Rapturous performance - You utterly consumed your partner and touched their very soul with your pleasurous abilities. Your acts arise as a beacon to the sensual gods above, drawing your presence ever closer to them. Your partner experiences three positive attitude changes (from Neutral to charmed, for example) from now on.

(end of part one)


----------



## Death By Surfeit

(continued)

*EXOTIC FEATS*
These are in addition to the normal feats available to characters, as found in Chapter 4 of the PHB.

BODY TO DIE FOR (General)
You beauty is otherworldy - the mere sight of your body drives potential partners wild.
Prerequisites: Sex Appeal, Cha 17+
Benefit: By acting a provocatively (a partial action), you may force all creatures of compatible sexual alignment to become Horny unless they pass a Will save (DC: 10 + Cha modifier). They may attempt to avoid looking at your sumptuous form: treat as a gaze attack.
Special: Your body’s shape must be clearly visible; you may not benefit from this feat whilst wearing armour or bulky clothing of any kind. By foregoing clothing entirely (rings, necklaces and other jewellery may still be worn), you may instead use this ability once per round as a free action.

BULLETPROOF BEAUTY (General)
Your gorgeous form drives opponents to the point of distraction.
Prerequisites: Sex Appeal, Body to Die For, Cha 19+
Benefit: You may add your Charisma modifier as a bonus to AC, even when flat-footed or immobilised. This bonus does not stack with a monk’s Wisdom bonus.
Special: Your body’s shape must be clearly visible; you may not benefit from this feat whilst wearing any significant amount of clothing, let alone armour. By foregoing clothing entirely (jewellery may still be worn), you can impose a morale penalty equal to your Charisma modifier on all melee attacks against you from creatures of compatible sexual alignment.

COITAL CASTING (General)
Your physical arousal only improves your spellcasting abilities.
Prerequisites: Coital Concentration, 8 or more ranks in Prowess, 12 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: When you succeed at the Concentration check to ignore penalties for arousal, you may add your arousal penalty instead as an arousal bonus to the DCs of all your sensual spells.

COITAL CONCENTRATION (General)
You remain focused even whilst physically aroused.
Prerequisites: Sensual spellcaster, 4 or more ranks in Prowess, 6 or more ranks in Concentration
Benefit: With a successful Concentration check (DC 10 Aroused, 20 Peaked, 30 Climaxed, 40 Ecstatic), you may act normally, ignoring all penalties for physical arousal.
Normal: Arousal infers penalties on skill checks, attack rolls and saves. Spells require Concentration checks to cast successfully. Unless a Fortitude save can be passed, Climaxed or Ecstatic characters are considered helpless.

CONDUCTIVE KISS (Metapsionic)
You may disguise your powers as a passionate kiss.
Prerequisites: Knowledge of Telepathy powers
Benefit: By kissing an opponent (an attack-equivalent grapple action), you can ease the linking of minds that is the foundation of Telepathy powers. The spells no have ‘Kiss’ range and affect only the creature kissed, but are affected as if by the Hide Power (all displays) metapsionic feats, regardless of whether you possess them.

DIVINE RAPTURE (Divine)
You may manifest your god’s power as raw sensual energy.
Prerequisites: Ability to turn/rebuke undead, ability to channel positive energy.
Benefit: By expending one of your turn/rebuke attempts, you may smite living foes with carnal power. Roll the turning check and damage roll as normal to determine who you can affect; each has a Prowess check made against them (d20 + Cha modifer).

FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM (Carnal Art)
Your experience encompasses the many techniques of this exclusive Carnal Art.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier before resting.

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER (Carnal Art)
You have been taught under the school of master Weil Hung.
Prerequisite: Str 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Strength modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Strength modifier before resting.

IMPROVED ENDURANCE (General)
Your sexual abilities allow you to resist stimulation better.
Prerequisite: Endurance, 1 or more ranks in Prowess
Benefit: You may add your ranks in Prowess to Fortitude saves to resist Arousal effects.
Normal: Mundane changes in Arousal may be resisted with a Fortitude save; magical effects may be resisted as explained in the spell description.

IRON CELIBACY (General)
Your powers of self-control are astounding with regard to sexual matters; your resolve in celibacy protects you from the attentions of others and the insidious effects of sensual magic.
Prerequisites: Iron Will, Abstinent sexual alignment
Benefit: You gain a Will save to ignore the effects of a successful Bluff (seduction) or arousal check on you (DC: check result). This stacks with any other opportunities to resist seduction or arousal. You gain Spell Resistance equal to your character level plus your Wisdom modifier against spells with the [Libido-Affecting] or [Arousal] descriptors.
Special: If the character willingly engages in any form of sexual activity, the effects of this feat are suspended until a character Atones (see Atonement, PHB).

LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS (Carnal Art)
You have researched the teachings of the ancient Tantric school.
Prerequisite: Wis 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier before resting.

MASSIVELY HUNG (General)
You are more than well hung for your race.
Prerequisites: Must be male, must be taken at 1st level
Benefit: Your phallus is half a size category larger than usual for your race (eg. a halfling could count as a small-and-a-half-size partner, or an orc Large).
Special: Certain individual races already count as larger than a normal member of their size category; if they gain this feat, the circumstances stack (ouch).

PSIONIC CARESS (Psionic)
Your touch delivers surges of sensual pleasure to your target’s brain.
Prerequisite: Psionic Touch, Cha 13+
Benefit: If pay the cost of 1 power point beforehand, your hand becomes ‘charged’ with potent carnal energy. If you succeed with a melee touch attack against a target, you may make an Arousal check. Your hand remains charged until you touch the target, else for a number of rounds equal to 1 + your Charisma modifier.
Special: If used in addition to a normal Arousal check, this skill allows you two attempts to stimulate a partner each turn.

SENSUAL STING (General)
Your mastery of the whip allows you to stimulate your foes even through the pain of your whip.
Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (whip),Weapon Finesse (whip), Dex 15+
Benefit: Whilst using a whip, a successful ranged touch attack allows you to make Prowess checks against another creature within the whip’s reach as a full-round action. The whip still inflicts subdual damage - unless your victim has the Masochism fetish, they may add the damage dealt as a bonus to Prowess resistance checks.
Normal: Prowess checks can only be made on creatures in the same hex, as a full-round action. An unwilling opponent must be grappled first. Whips can typically only be used to attack, trip, disarm etc.

SEX APPEAL (General)
Your appearance is particularly alluring to the opposite sex.
Prerequisite: Cha 13+
Benefit: This feat confers a +2 bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy and Prowess checks against creatures of compatible sexual alignment.

SMOOCH SPELL (Metamagic)
You can bypass opponent’s protection from your spells to resist by delivering them with a kiss.
Benefit: You can prepare any spell with this feat. Doing so decreases the spell’s range to ‘Kiss’, but ignores any Spell Resistance possessed by the spell’s target. In order to deliver this spell, you must kiss the subject of the spell; if the subject is unwilling, the kiss is an attack-equivalent grapple action.

SUBTLE CARESS (General)
Your knowledge of anatomy can be used to arouse pleasure as easily as it can inflict pain.
Prerequisites: Sneak attack ability, 12 ranks of Prowess
Benefit: When making a Prowess check as a grapple action, you may add your sneak attack damage as a bonus to your roll. Note that this bonus does not apply to other forms of Prowess checks: the capacity to quickly arouse does not equate to a good performance.
Normal: Prowess checks may be made forcefully on a grappled opponent as a full-round action.

TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT (Carnal Art)
You are privy to the Techniques of the Halfling Harlot, as passed down by the trade throughout the ages.
Prerequisite: Con 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Constitution modifier before resting.

TRICKS OF THE IMPROVISO (Carnal Art)
You have studied the Naughtie Works of the legendary gnome Arcanalist.
Prerequisite: Int 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Intelligence modifier before resting.

TRUE LOVE (General)
You are truly, madly, deeply in love with someone else.
Prerequisites: None
Benefit: You may make a Will save to negate the effect of a Bluff (seduction) check made against you by anyone other than your true love – the same Will save may be made to negate any compulsion to hurt (physically, mentally or emotionally) your true love. If the love is reciprocal (that is, both people take the feat), you may double bonuses for flanking and skill cooperation when working with your true love.
Special: You really do have to be in love with another: unless you act accordingly, this feat is rendered useless until your differences are made up. And yes, it is possible (although hard) to take this feat multiple times, each relating to a different individual.

WAY OF THE YEARNING ROSE (Carnal Art)
You know the patterns inherent to the Way of the Rose.
Prerequisite: Cha 13+, 3 or more ranks of Sexual Prowess
Benefit: You may safely use the manoeuvres of this Art a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier before resting.
Normal: Characters without this feat cannot use the Art’s techniques.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, allowing you to use the manoeuvres an additional number of times equal to your Charisma modifier before resting.

*CARNAL ARTS*
Carnal arts are positions, maneouvres which enhance your sexual prowess in new and interesting ways. Each of the Arts is linked to a key ability score - the higher your score, the more useful it will be to you. The manoeuvres of the six basic Carnal Arts are listed below.

In order for you to gain access to an Art, you must take the relevant feat. Once this is taken, you may use the Art’s techniques a number of times equal to the appropriate ability score (or more, if you take the feat multiple times). More and more different techniques become available as you progress in levels of Prowess, in much the same manner that more and more applications of bardic music become available when a bard goes up ranks in Perform.

IMMACULATE FORMS OF THE MASTER
Before arising to become the Master of the Immaculate Forms, Weil-Hung lived a life of monastic seclusion, of quiet contemplation and iron discipline. It is against these principles that he rebelled - it is Weil-Hung’s dogma that life is best experienced by really _living_ - sense achieved by sensuality. After a time of hedonistic travelling, he drew upon his martial prowess and sensual experience to found a school of martial arts that forms a very real war of the sexes.

3 Ranks Prowess - Mating Bull
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Str bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Charging Ram
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to increase the effective size of a phallus they are penetrating someone with by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the size may be increased in such a manner by a whole size category. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Gulping Heron
May be activated at start of character’s initiative pass. Allows character being penetrated to make extra Prowess checks in one round equal to their Str modifer on owner of said phallus. The highest score is taken to resolve the effect of these. This ability lasts for one round.

12 Ranks Prowess - Squeezing Boa
May be activated when a successful grapple check is made. Allows character to put foe into a pin in which they may make a Prowess check each round against foe, but inflict no damage. Any attempts to escape can be negated by a higher Prowess check by character, the effects of which are instantly applied. This ability lasts until the pin is released.

15 Ranks Prowess - Stinging Cobra
May be activated at start of character’s initiative pass. All unarmed attacks made during that round, if successful, deal no damage but instead allow an instant Prowess check to be made against the target (all appropriate modifers apply). This ability lasts for one round.

FLOWERS OF THE DECADENT BLOSSOM
This art was born from the hedonistic aristocracy of Sumfing Oranutha, the noble and the rich who turned their backs on the concerns of the real world in order to immerse themselves in a lifetime of relationships, affairs and, more often than they would like to admit, downright debauchery. The Flowers were their only cultural legacy, a carnal art suited to such a solipsistic life.

3 Ranks Prowess - Courtesan’s Finesse
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Dex bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Love for Many
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against multiple partners at once - that is to say that checks are at only -2 for each partner beyond the first. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Secret Affair
May be activated as a free action. The character may make Prowess checks of an appropriate nature (GM’s discretion) against a partner that is clothed or even armoured (normally, making checks against a clothed partner incurs at least a -2 penalty; it is impossible to make checks against an armoured partner). No penalties apply to making checks against a clothed partner; the partner’s armour penalty applies to any checks made against them. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Love of Many
May be activated at the start of the character’s initiative pass. By passing a Prowess check (DC 20), the character can apply two proficiencies they know at once (all circumstantial modifiers apply for each) against a single partner in a turn. Double their Prowess rank bonus for this turn if the check was successful. They may instead attempt to apply three maneouvres (Prowess check DC 30), four maneouvres (DC 40) and so on, in the nature described above. Should the Prowess check fail, they lose their rank bonus to Prowess for this turn. This ability lasts for one turn.

15 Ranks Prowess - Open Romance
May be activated as a free action. The character’s partner(s) and onlookers appear unconcerned about wordly matters, losing themselves in the act of passion. All penalties based on physical circumstances (such as location) and social circumstances (such as prior commitments and relationships) are ignored until they Climax. Should the character break off from the act of passion, the effect will also end.

TECHNIQUES OF THE HALFLING HARLOT
Legends state that the Art of the Halfling Harlot is as old as the profession, which, being the oldest in the world, makes its origins hard to trace indeed. The Art flourishes within the halfling prostitution community, passed down to young escorts as an essential survival skill as much as anything else; outsiders are free to learn it, but its limited application means that they seldom ask.

3 Ranks Prowess - Accomodation
May be activated before testing for damage under the Size Matters rules. The character automatically passes their Fortitude saves to minimise damage under the Size Matters rules. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Relaxation
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to increase the effective size of one of their orifices by half a size category for the purposes of the Size Matters rules. When the character reaches 12 ranks of Prowess, the size may be increased in such a manner by a whole size category. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Selflessness
May be activated at the start of a combat turn, when in a situation where both partners are making Prowess checks against each other. For the remainder of this turn, the character may get a bonus of up to twice their Con bonus to their Prowess rolls - all Prowess checks made against the character this turn receive an equal penalty. This ability continues until the character Climaxes, although the penalties taken can be changed each turn.

9 Ranks Prowess - Suffering
May be activated before taking damage as part of sexual congress. For the purposes of any partners or onlookers with the Sadism fetish, treat the damage as the maximum possible incurred (maximum value for damage rolls, treat Fort saves as if they were failed, and so on), regardless of how much is actually dealt. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

15 Ranks Prowess - Melodrama
May be activated as a free action. All partners and onlookers gain the Sadism fetish until they Climax - should the character break off sexual activity, the effects of this maneouvre ends.

TRICKS OF THE GREAT IMPROVISO
The sad demise of the gnome known only as the Improviso (and, since, the Great Improviso) was recorded less than a hundred years ago. The legendary arcanalist walked the world dabbling in the sensual arts, and his desire to acquire undisclosed knowledge is equalled only by his urge to pass it on - the Naughtie Works of the Improviso has since been etched in more than a dozen languages and circulated across the Great Wheel. For those who can afford the time to study it and the intellect to understand it, the Naughtie Works provide many useful nuggets of information.

3 Ranks Prowess - Imagination
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Int bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Adaptability
May be activated as a free action. The character halves penalties for making Prowess checks against creatures of a different Type - that is to say that such checks are at only -2. When the character achieves 12 ranks of Prowess, the penalty is removed entirely. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Improvisation
May be activated as a free action. The character may apply their Prowess bonus to the use of any proficiency, regardless of whether they are proficient in it or not. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

9 Ranks Prowess - Subtlety
May be activated at the start of the character’s initiative pass. A single Prowess check made during the turn is so subtle that the partner must make a Sense Motive check (DC: Prowess check result) to notice that they are doing so. This may be used to make Prowess checks against a partner that consents to basic bodily contact - should they pass their check, however, they snatch away and the effect of the Prowess check is negated. This ability lasts for one Prowess check made by the character.

15 Ranks Prowess - Mind Games
May be activated after making a Prowess check against a partner. Unless the partner can resist (DC: Prowess check result), they are fooled into becoming ever more passionate and their physical arousal spurns mental horniness - an Aroused partner also becomes Horny, a Peaked partner also becomes Lustful, and a Climaxed or Ecstatic partner also becomes Delirious. These effects last for as long as the status conditions do.

LORE OF THE TANTRIC ANCIENTS
Ancient tomes write of the wisdom of a monastic order from ancient times, whose control of body echoed through to a discipline of the mind and purity of spirit. Those few wise individuals that perpetuate the teachings of the tantric ancients welcome new pupils, knowing that with mastery over the body equal control over one’s destiny can be attained.

3 Ranks Prowess - Joy of the Spirit
May be activated as a free action. Allows character to apply their Int bonus instead of Cha when calculating their modifier for Prowess checks. This ability continues until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Humble the Mountain
May be activated after character has been aroused to Climax. Although all usual effects of the Climaxed state are applied, no sexual fatigue is incurred. Characters undergoing an ecstatic state instead incur fatigue as if they had merely Climaxed. Once the character attains 12 ranks of Prowess, even the fatigue of an Ecstatic state can be dismissed entirely. This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Dam the River
May be activated after a Prowess check is made against the character. Allows the character to automatically succeed in the Fortitude save to resist arousal. This ability is instantaneous.

9 Ranks Prowess - Climb the Mountain
May be activated after character has been aroused to Climax. The check result of the partner is modified to the minimum required to induce an Ecstatic state - apply all effects of this normally. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Swim the River
May be activated at the start of a character’s initiative pass. For this round, the character suffers no ill effect (adverse status conditions, penalties or Concentration checks) for any arousal they possess. Where relevant, bonuses still apply, as do penalties from horniness and sexual fatigue incurred. This ability lasts one turn.

ART OF THE IMMORTAL NYMPH
The greatest and most glamorous of courtesans pass around a group of postures, techniques and mindsets that serve only to enhance their natural charm. Only those demonstrating professionalism in attitude and prowess are deigned suitable to acquire such knowledge - the Art is seldom acquired outside of the Courtesans’ Guild.

3 Ranks Prowess - Encapsulating Touch
May be activated after making a Prowess check. For one turn, the partner against whom the check was made automatically fails any Concentration checks incurred because of arousal. This ability is instantaneous.

6 Ranks Prowess - Dreamlike Presence
May be activated as a free action. Passionate exploits with the character take on a surreal edge - any partner or onlooker halves (round down) one penalty incurred due to differing sexual alignment or frets (character’s decision). Should the character acquire 12 ranks in Prowess, one penalty may be totally negated instead. This ability lasts until the character Climaxes.

6 Ranks Prowess - Beatific Presence
May be activated as a free action. When performing a striptease, exotic dance or similar proficiency with penalties to rise partners above an Aroused state, those penalties are negated, as even the form of the character is enough to induce massive pleasure. This ability lasts until the onlookers Climax.

9 Ranks Prowess - Irresistable Touch
May be activated after making a Prowess check. The character’s partner is not allowed their Fortitude save to negate the effects of the Prowess check - any other saves in place (such as the Will save for someone with Iron Celibacy) still apply, however. This ability is instantaneous.

15 Ranks Prowess - Monumental Presence
May be activated after a session of sexual activity. The bonus attitude change resulting from the Very Social Art rules is irrevocable - although their fundamental attitude may become more unfriendly (or even hostile), the sweet memories ensure that the attitude modifer from their time together still applies. This ability is permanent.

(NB: Sorry, VVrayven, I didn’t have your Arts to hand when I typed this up – they will have to feature in the first revision I churn out. Hope you can forgive me!)

- - -

And that just about wraps it up for now. As mentioned before, I need you to get back to me as soon as feasibly possible with whatever natterings on the subject you can come up with. The GUCK, for the first time, is showing a modicum of ability to stand alone by itself – the draft above can be added as a module into any campaign right now, if you wish. After the revision of the draft above, we will tackle the rest of the guide in the following order:

1) Kinks, sexual alignment and suchforth – things that would be in the draft above were they complete at the time this was typed up. Any contributions on this topic are very much valued.

2) Spells, spellcasting and spellcasters – these are essentially a direct extension of the core mechanics and need to be arranged before we can get anything else underway.

3) Magic items – directly based on the mechanics listed above, so probably worth doing next. Once these are done, we can claim to have a relatively comprehensive Guide.

4) Descriptions, essays, monsters, rules for prostitution, pregnancy & diseases, and suchforth. With the advent of their finalisation, the Guide will be pretty much complete.

5) Much, much rejoicing.

Cheers,

Death by Surfeit
(knackered)


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## VVrayven

> I seem to have completely omitted a part of the Sexual Fatigue rules. Please consider the section revised to the effect that




That would explain my confusion. Glad you found them 



> VVrayven: not being proficient in an, um, proficiency does not incur any statistical modifiers (as it would based on weapon proficiencies), but instead removes the opportunity to add any rank bonus to the check




That makes total sense. Sorry Asher for misleading you.



> In the round in which the Prowess check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back on their initiative pass. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.




Excellent and elegant fix as always, DbS.



> (NB: Sorry, VVrayven, I didn’t have your Arts to hand when I typed this up – they will have to feature in the first revision I churn out. Hope you can forgive me!)




It's okay. <pouts>  I have two more in the making. I really think we need a few more of these to add to the draft.



> And if everyone goes quiet, I will track each of you down and tickle you in your sleep.




<giggle> Promise? 

The guide is looking great. I'll go over it with fine eyes over the next day or so. We have so much left to do, but now at least we have come so far. Everything looks excellent DbS. Great work!


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## Asher

_*Wow.*_  What an impressive job, DbS.  It'll take a while to review and critique the system, but I want to laud your efforts.  _<laud, laud, laud...>_  There, that's done.  Now please don't come tickle me in my sleep; you'd scare my wife to death.

Cheers!


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## Sorn

HOLY COW, DbS. Very cool. I read the whole thing twice, and it looks very good. The only things that are somewhat unclear are the alignment modifiers. Once we get that section ironed out, we need to define what an unsuitable or incompatible sexual alignment would be. Otherwise it could lead to some confusion.


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## Death By Surfeit

The alignment modifiers were bound to be a little hazy, as we haven't finalised that section. When adding that in, I presumed we were working on the Hetero/Bi-Hetero/Bi/Bi-Homo/Homo lateral alignment system, where Heteros would incur -4 when stimulated by someone of the same sex, Bi-Heteros would have a -2 penalty, and suchlike for the Homo alignments.

I'm afraid I won't be available to post until late Saturday (researching for my tickling spree), so I expect lots of feedback, suggestions and contributions as a welcoming gift.

Cheerio,

DbS


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## Sorn

DbS... that's what I figured on the alignment issue. 

Other than that, everything looks very solid. I'd say we move on to the next item(s) in the list.

I agree that the sexual aligment as well as the kinks/fetishes/frets should be next, as they tie directly into the core mechanics. While the other chapters are dependant on the core mechanics, the above items directly affect modifiers therein, so we should get that squared away.


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## Sorn

DbS... that's what I figured on the alignment issue. 

Other than that, everything looks very solid. I'd say we move on to the next item(s) in the list.

I agree that the sexual aligment as well as the kinks/fetishes/frets should be next, as they tie directly into the core mechanics. While the other chapters are dependant on the core mechanics, the above items directly affect modifiers therein, so we should get that squared away. 

For the unsuitable/incompatible alignment modifiers. 

First off, how about we call it Orientation. This way there won't be any confusion with the standard alignment, plus people won't expect a Homo-Neutral, Hetero-Evil or Bi-Good character.

Here's my proposed table to illustrate unsuitable/incompatible combos:


                 Partner of Same Sex/Opposite Sex
Hetero:         I/C
bi(hetero):    U/C
bi:                 C/C 
bi(homo):      C/U
homo:           C/I

I: Incomplatible, C: Compatible, U: Unsuitable

Thoughts?


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## Death By Surfeit

First off, I'd better apologise unabashedly for claiming that I wouldn't be available to post for another two days. Unfortunately for you all, I am.

Sorn: The reason I had originally coined the term 'alignment' harks back from the endless days spent typing away at the DbS conversion (how little changes...), wherein characters had a lateral alignment (or orientation) but also a primal aspect (a rough indication of someone's drive), measured as Indulgent, Moderant, or Abstinent.

Your suggestions for the unsuitability/incompatibility, by the way, are spot on with what I'd originally envisaged. I'll second everything you wrote.

For the purposes of rules text, an unsuitable alignment is _technically_ suitable, but in a given situation somene will always choose a Compatible partner over an Unsuitable one.

VVrayven: I'd like to hear your new Carnal Arts, alongside anything you can come up with relating to the current guide or the topics we're currently embarking on. Type away...

Everyone: Please, please contribute whatever you can. I'm able to post more often nowadays (about twice a day), so lets get things up to speed. Listings of kinks, new rules or flavour text,suggestions for the posted guide, revisions and flaws are all paramount for progress, so peel your eyes away from the televisions, forget pertinent issues and GET TYPING!

DbS

NB. Yes, yes, I know. I've managed to replicate the 'Lore of the Tantric Ancients Int typo' in this version as well. Forgive me, if you can.


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## Sorn

DbS: Ahh... makes sense on the alignment naming. The only problem I see with the primal aspect is that aside from Abstinent, this might fluctuate from day to day and availability of partners. Someone could be very indulgant and go to orgies every other day, but due to a bad back and the death of her grandmother, she is currently abstinent. Alignment changes (even sexual ones) shouldn't occur frequently. I think the Primal aspect could easier be handled with kinks and frets. E.g. Indulgant would become Kink: Nympho/Satyr, Moderate would be the norm, Abstinence would be Fret: Sex-In-General.


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## VVrayven

Heya guys.



> I'd like to hear your new Carnal Arts, alongside anything you can come up with relating to the current guide or the topics we're currently embarking on. Type away...




Sure thing, hun. 

I only have one done right now, though I have another Int based one coming right up! I know this one is a little off standard, but maybe it will help a little? Let me know what you all think.

Feat: Sexual Practice
Prereqs: 3 Ranks Prowess.
Benefit: Unlike other Carnal Art forms, this is a simplistic version representing long experience and self training of sexual practices. As you gain in ranks of prowess. A sexually practiced character can selected one of the abilities below at 3 ranks, 6 ranks, 9 ranks, 12 ranks, and 15 ranks.

Teasing Lover: (9 Ranks)
You can keep your partner on the edge of ecstacy. Activated after any prowess check. If you succeed in raising your partner's arousal, you may instead keep them at their current level or any level in between your successful prowess roll. If this effect is used to keep a partner in peaked status by denying them an orgasm, they must make a will save against DC 15 or suffer 1d4 temporary wisdom damage.

Sexual Expertise: (3 Ranks)
You are adept at pleasuring your partner at the expense of your own concentration. Activated as a free action. For the rest of the session you may choose to subtract a number (up to -5) from your Fortitude save to resist pleasure and add it to your prowess check (up to +5). This bonus/penalty lasts for the entire round and may be set again in the next round.

Responsive: (3 Ranks)
You can shift your effots to make your body more responisve to attentions. Activated as a free action. For the rest of the session you may choose to subtract a number (up to -5) from your prowess checks and add it to your partners prowess checks (up to +5). This bonus/penalty lasts for the entire round and may be set again in the next round.

Resist Pleasure: (6 Ranks)
Fighting off your partner's attentions at the slight expense of your own can help you last longer. For the rest of the session you may choose to subtract a number (up to -5) from your prowess checks and add it to your Fortitude saves to resist pleasure (up to +5). This bonus/penalty lasts for the entire round and may be set again in the next round.

Sexual Endurance: (3 Ranks)
You can last longer in bed than most. This ability can be selected more than once. Each time it is select ONE of the following benefits can be gained:
	Withstand 2 orgasms before fatigue (male only).
	Withstand Con Mod x 2 orgasms before fatigue (female only).
	Withstand Con Mod x 2 orgasms before exhuastion (male only).
	Withstand Con x 2 orgasms before exhaustion (female only).
	Half subdual damage from orgasms while exhuasted.

Quick Withdrawl: (6 Ranks, 9 Ranks for females)
This grants a 50% chance to prevent pregnacny from intercourse by withdrawing before ejaculation or pulling away before your partner climaxes. If both partners possess this ability, the chance is increased to 75%.

Delay Orgasm (6 Ranks, 9 Ranks for males)
You can resist the urge to cliamx. Any time your fail a save to resist rising to climax (but not estascitc) you activate this ability as a free action an resist climaxing. Your status becomes peaked.

Multi-Orgasmic: (6 Ranks, females only)
And time an attempt to make you climax (or more) exceeds the target DC by 5 points or more, you instead have multiple orgasms. You will climax for 1d6 rounds suffering the effects per round and as long as your partner keeps simulating you at a DC 5. This use of the ability does not require expendature of an abilty use. However, a woman an induce a multiple orgasm at any time during climax by expending an ability use.

Quick Recovery: (6 Ranks, males only)
After becoming unable to perform after climax. A man can make a Fortitude save, DC 15, if successful, he may become arousded again as normal, though he still suffers from fatigue. This use of the ability does not require expendature of an abilty use. However, a man can instantly become ready again by expending an ability use.

Stay Tuned for the (Int) Based, Art of the Brilliant Caress.


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## VVrayven

Hi all! Well, I've had a chance to read through most of it now. <puts on her editorial cap> 

I will try to go in order. 

1) I think there should be a synergy bonus from prowess to all Spot and Sense Motive checks to notice the presence of arousal both mental and physical.

2) The Delerious Status condition states that the person fails ALL saves. I believe this should read, fails all reflex and will saves (and I'm reluctant to say will save too) maybe this should just be autofail refelx with a penalty to will saves. Also, you have to make a will save every round in this condition (and that doesn't auto fail right?)

3) I truly believe the penalty listed for unwilling should read "from 1 to 20 or even higher depending on the setting".

4) Big Question!

Okay, Prowess checks are made in order to "inflict" pleasure on a person or object (or self), correct? Alright, then our Prof. system needs some tweaking...

We have Prof. listed such as Sodomy (recieve)... Well, what does this mean? Does this mean a person being penetrated can only use this on themselves? Plus, from what I have heard, their is as much an art to giving as in recieving when sodomy is concerned, so... Sodomy (thrusting) should be a Prof. as well.

This also leads to the question of what does DSM do? If I ask my partner to be dominating and I like to be submissive, we can do it all night and not get anywhere. It helps me get aroused.... but the acts themselves don't stimulate me. So what does making a prowess check for "submission" do? I'm not using Prof in touching, caressing, oral, or anything else, so how does this help to stimulate my partner? I really think this is a problem with our hard-focus specific system.

DSM and Bondage don't actually stimulate, they AIDE in the stimulation by using ANOTHER Prof... So something needs to be tweaked here. Even the +10 DC mod doesn't really help it make sense.

5) How are mutliple prowess checks resolved against one person? I.E. If two people pleasure a girl, do they both use her current status? Do the checks stack or act individually? My gut says individual checks, but consider this, two partners with +2s might have a much higher chance of simulating you to the next arousal level, rather than their indivdual chances... I know If I stimulate myself at the same time as a partner does to me, our combinded efforts get be aroused MUCH faster...

6) In describing the Arousal DCs the sentence should read: "and the ones on the right ARE the female ones."

7) Can a partner who is being penetrated and using a free action to reflexivily stimulate their partner use a second prowess check at no penalty to their partner or themselves???

8) I think we need modifiers for MOOD in the circumstance area. The posititive "Turned On" stuff is hadnled by the status conditions. The negative "Turned OFF" stuff can't/shouldn't all be covered by Unwilling.

9) Clothing modifiers. I like my step system, but if everyone thinks this is too complex, we need a set of 2 or three clothing modifiers.

10) Gender Bias in the Prof. DC Table???

Alright. Should we modify the DCs at all in this table for gender. I only ask this because in my experience it is far easier to get a female to climax through ONLY gentle touches than it is to get a man off in this fashion. Giving Sodomy is almost always pleasing for the thruster (so I've heard. ) but is only sometimes for the reciever. I know I don't prefer it, but it isn't nearly as stimulating and yet it has a +0 mod climax and only a +2 to peak?  Is is just as easy for a gay man in the recieving end to get off like this? Just my thoughts at the moment...

11) I'm confused by the statement at the end of the Exhuasted rules: "Each round of Ecstasy in this state deals sufficient subdual damage to render the character unconscious, plus an additional point of subdual damage per HD." So does this mean if you are level 10 and exhausted and have an estacy orgasm... you die? Say 50 hp, you take 50 in subdual and then an additional 10 subdual leaving you at -10... Which does kill you by the core rules, does it not?

12) In Size Matters.... "The owner of the phallus may also be damaged – where the difference is one-and-a-half size categories or more, the owner of the phallus receives damage as if the difference was one size category than it actually is." seems to be missing a word.

13) In Size matters under larger still... I think it should read: "All pain, no gain. Concerted attempts simply incur damage as if two sizes larger with NO SAVE possible: see above."

14) I think it should read EROTIC feats, not EXOTIC feats, no?

>hugs> DbS you have done a fantastic job! <blows a kiss> I've got three surprises coming up for you later today.


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## DrAltaica

Shouldn't sexual aligment Andro/Gyno instead of Hetero/Homo?  I mean isn't that male barbarian still going to purfur females even after you ast change sex on him?  

"By clicking the Agree button, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws." ....


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## Gez

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *4) Regarding Carnal Arts: Gez, whilst your suggestions are fitting, they have real ramifications for low level characters (anyone besides a monk would be effectively denied the Immaculate Forms, for example). Whilst it may deviate from the flavour of Martial Arts, I am wholly in favour of specific-feat Carnal Arts – you pay for what you get, and get what you pay for. That way nobody is denied Carnal Arts because they don’t have the extensive requisite feats, and neither do they receive a Carnal Art they didn’t work toward or desire for their character.*




I object. First, it was a proposal; if prerequisites are deemed too high, they may be lowered. (The immaculate form art was very monk-like in its flavor text, and didn't seemed something easy to learn.) Furthermore, I don't see requiring one feat (usually among a choice of 2) as standard as skill focus, endurance, or alertness (like most of my proposals had) as barring low-level characters from acquiring them.

I just think that all these salty rules will be merely a waste of space if they are too hard to characters to use. That's why I'm opposed to "useless" feats.

On a stylistic level also, an art is meant to be a sort of "synergy bonus". Not something given by a feat; but an extra given because you have invested in a particular combination of feat. As they are now, they are not carnal arts -- they are carnal feats.


Just in order to be a pedantic jerk, I'll type there the stuff about martial arts:
_A martial arts style is a collection of feats [and skills] that practitioners of that style learn to enhance their prowess in combat.
[...]
Following the path of a martial arts style has certain benefits. A character who masters the feats [and skills] within a style gains a mastery ability related to the techniques of that style. Some styles have one mastery ability; others have multiple abilities that a character gains as she masters different aspects of the style. Mastery abilities are a bit like the synergy bonuses a character gains if she has several ranks in certain skills: characters who learn certain combinations of feats [and skills] gains an extra edge for doing so.
[...]
[Sample mastery
EMPTY HAND MASTERY
You have mastered the martial arts style of the "Empty Hand" -- a hard form emphasizing strikes with the hand.
Prerequisites: Imp. Unarmed Strike, Power Attack, Fists of Iron, Sunder, Eagle Claw Attack, Ki Shout, 4 or more ranks in Bluff.
Benefit: Your unarmed damage increases by one die type, as if you were one size category larger than you are._

With that example given, my initial intentions when I had that idea was to make some "New Use for Old Skills and Feats", assign some capacities to feats, like giving, say, Accomodation (from halfling harlot) to Toughness, or other ideas like that; include a bunch of skills and feats and SP "perform-like proficiencies" bunched together in a style, with a mastery that would grant improved benefits.


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## VVrayven

Alright. Boon One of the Evening 

I developed a Java program to test the Hard Focus system. I've found out a few interesting facts that we need to look at. I know no system is perfect, but we do want some degree of realism. The program simulates 10,000,000 sessions of lovemaking.

The program stops with the male have reached climax... No I know, our rules allow for more than that, but in most cases, especially with 1st level commoners, sex is over at this point.

Two 1st level commoners with no ranks in prowess go at it:

If they do not resist each other and have +0 total modifiers. They choose the most favorable DC to achieve the next level of arousal. we get the following statistics:

The average encounter lasts about 22 rounds before the male reaches climax (about 4 minutes). A women experiences about 0.09 orgasms in this case, and has a 7% chance to climax from an encounter.

Now, if the male resists every female action with the Fort save, we get the following:

The average encounter lasts about 35 rounds before the male reaches climax (about 6 minutes). A women experiences about 0.16 orgasms in this case, and has a 10% chance to climax from an encounter.

If the female withholds her prowess roll until she has had at least one climax, their is no change, because she has no bonus. But if she uses her prowess on herself and only reflexively pleasures her partner (the way I did this was have her roll replace the male's if it was higher) then we get:

The average encounter lasts about 28 rounds before the male reaches climax (about 4-5 minutes). A women experiences about 0.59 orgasms in this case, and has a 50% chance to climax from an encounter. This is the most favorable I can get within the rules.

Now I think these numbers are okay. Not too shaby, though they don't match the soft focus rules... In any case, we do have one serious problem. Unless a male has a partner with a prowess 7 or higher and NEVER uses reflex (witholds her prowess bonus to help her chances of orgasm), there is a HIGH probability that the man will LOOSE his errection (i.e. arousal status condition to zero status condition) from a failed prowess check by the women. In fact, even at minimal chance (1 in 20) that is this a 97% probability of the event occuring sometime before male climax. We need to fix this. It doesn't make any sense. I my experience, an able male has never LOST his erection in the middle of an encounter, let alone with him fresh and after 2 minutes.

Here are a few more interesting figures. This assumes the female holds her bonus back until she climaxes at least once and the male resists for as long as he can. All saves are at +0, these are the averages from 10,000,000 sessions:

3 Ranks:  28.8 rounds, 2.4 orgasms, 88% climax chance, 2.3 gratification avg for female.
5 Ranks:  28.8 rounds, 4.3 orgasms, 94% climax chance, 5.2 gratification avg for female.
10 Ranks:  28.7 rounds, 11 orgasms, 99% climax chance, 18.2 gratification avg for female.
15 Ranks:  28.7 rounds, 19 orgasms, 99% climax chance, 40 gratification avg for female.

With a good fort save, both partners can easily hold out for better orgasms and with 15 ranks... Well it's quite easy to get a girl up to a gratifiction of 50+...

Maybe we ought to look at this a little bit more... 

Well just my brainy side for tonight...


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## Erila of Sune

*Possible feats for inclusion (Monstrous Races)*

Lily Inverse here!  I've been absent for awhile, but life's been kinda busy.

I'm not quite sure where these would go (or even what to call them) but they're basically feats to give those 'critters' with a sexual bent more power in that department once character levels start being added.  



Feat 1 (Monstrous)
Prerequisite:  Cha 15+

Many monsters are guised with appearances pleasing to humanoids, while others are able to use natural processes to overcome their normal inclinations.  Some take this ability further.  Whether through pheromonal control or inherent magic, you are able to seduce members of humanoid races with ease.

Benefit:  Humanoids in your presence for more than one turn are automatically aroused.  This feat does not function if those who would be affected are engaged in hostilities of any sort, but operates regardless of whether or not they are aware of your presence.  Furthermore, you gain a +1 bonus to all sexual prowess checks you make towards those affected by this feat, and they treat you as if of compatible sexual alignment.

Feat 2 (Monstrous)
Prerequisites:  Feat 1, Cha 19+


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## VVrayven

> Lily Inverse here! I've been absent for awhile, but life's been kinda busy.




Hi Lily!  I remember you from the old thread back when I was just a lurker.  Welcome back to the boards and the new discussions.


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## Asher

Great job with the Java script, VVrayven -- that's an excellent tool for fine-tuning our DC tables.

If memory serves me correctly, the NUCK incorporated a rule in which the states Aroused and Peaked remained in effect as long as there was any continued stimulation at all, and for a number of rounds after stimulation was cut off.  That seemed reasonable to me, and the DC table should reflect a similar mechanic so that we avoid the odd phenomenon of male characters routinely going limp in the middle of intercourse.  Perhaps the DC table should read something like:

Current \ Target	None	Aroused	Peaked	Climaxed	Ecstatic
None 		<13/<16 13/16 	26/32 	   52/64 	104/128
Aroused 		<1/<5 	1/5 	14/18 	   28/36 	56/72
Peaked 		<1/<5 	1/5 	8/10 	   16/20 	32/40

I realize that this messes up the mnemonically advantageous "double each DC value to get the next higher one" system, but I'll gladly sacrifice that bit of elegance to avoid the problem you discovered.

Responses to some of your numbered points:

7) I'd say that a character should not lose their normal Prowess check simply because they are making the free action Prowess check of a passive recipient.

10) Agreed, different techniques have different levels of effectiveness on males and females.  Only the hesitancy to proliferate DC modifiers keeps me from enthusiastically calling for separate male/female values.  As it is, I'm still undecided.

11) I'm no 3E expert, but I thought the "-10 HP = death" rule applied only to normal damage, not subdual damage.  The character who sustains massive amounts of subdual damage is merely unconscious, even at -10.

'Tis all for now...


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## VVrayven

Heya. Couple more things for the board, gosh I've posted a lot.  Where are you DbS! <readies a tickle>

First off, I think we should have the True Love feat grant a bonus to Prowess checks, after all, if you love them, they try harder and you are eaiser to arouse.

Second, how would you all feel about making a sidebar: Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder... It would consists of having a partner's charisma score be slightly variable depending on your feelings toward them. For instance two people in love might treat each other as having +2 or +4 charisma? What do you think?

Third. I tweaked my java system so that the AI routine works alot more realisticly. However, before I get into that, I'd like to address our gratification issue. First, we make a convention for a better orgasm to grant a higher gratification, so I find it a little odd that Estacy grants only a 1 gratification and is very difficult to grant it more... In addition, if you happen to make your partner climax twice in a row, the second one will grant less gratification on average due to the high DC required... So I propose the following change:

"When a character becomes Climaxed or Ecstastic, they receive a gratification point plus an additional point for every 5 points by which the test exceeds the base climax DC, rounded down to a minimum of 1. Keep a tally of this for each partner and consult the Gratification table at the end of proceedings.

Examples: 

Female is peaked, partner makes DC 26 (target DC 20), the gratificiation is 2 (1 + 6/5 round down).

Female is climaxed, partner makes a DC 41 (target DC 40 base 20), the gratification is 5 (1 + 21/5 round down).

Female is peaked, partner makes a DC 46 (target DC 40 for estacy, base 20), the gratification is 6 (1 + 26/5).

What do you think? In either case, the Gratification table for Hard Focus needs to be reworked, and I'll explain why later.

As for my new program results:

The two partners now foreplay each other until they are both Aroused. If one partner is aroused and the other is not, they both try to arouse the one which is not. After this, intercourse begins. The DC table has been modified so that once aroused, a male cannot loose Arousal. They remain at intercourse, even if the female drops to no Arousal. (all the penalties are in there). This continues until the girl passes out or the male experiences his first climax.

Using the standard just go, no resist method:
Intercourse Time: 12 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 0.05, Female Climax Chance: 2.7%

If male resists after he is aroused, and the female tried to please herself and just reflexively tried her partner:
Intercourse Time: 8 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 0.33, Female Climax Chance: 16.2%

So, women are pretty much just out of luck...  But then again, I guess it was so for a long time...

However, if you give one rank of prowess and a +1 Fort Save...
Intercourse Time: 9 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 0.87, Female Climax Chance: 37.2%
two ranks of prowess and a +1 Fort Save...
Intercourse Time: 9 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 1.38, Female Climax Chance: 56.8%
three ranks of prowess and a +1 Fort Save...
Intercourse Time: 9 rounds, Avg Female Orgasm: 1.93, Female Climax Chance: 68.5%

in the above rank is synonimis with total prowess bonus...


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## VVrayven

Let's take a look at our Gratification Table:

Table X-XX: Gratification Table:
Soft Focus / Hard Focus / Performance
<10 / <1 / Disappointing
10 / 1 / Satisfactory
15 / 2 / Enjoyable
20 / 5 / Memorable
30 / 10 / Fantastic
40 / 15 / Extraordinary
50 / 20 / Heavenly
60 / 25 / Rapturous

This table implies that it is easier to accomplish higher values through Hard Focus rather than soft focus. Why is this so? Well, to get a DC 60 you need a +40 to prowess or a lot of modifiers. In any case, if you use this +40 in Hard Focus you can quiet easily build a partner up to peak and then get an average 5-6 gratification climax from them. And with that +40, you can get 5 orgasms easy. However, using Soft Focus, you would have to roll a natural 20.

Now, I don't have a problem with this. I think Hard Focus should be the method to attain awesome results... But, assuming the common woman can withstand 14 climaxs... (let's say 13 just for fun). That means a common women can get 13 gratification level 2 orgasms and then be three steps jumped on the social table. What's a level 2 orgasm take? DC 25 repeatatly. A good CHA rogue with a +15 modifier can pull this off easiliy. That's about a 7th level rogue. Is this what we want?

What does everyone think?

Edit: And I forgot one other thing... After prowess bonuses reach the +10 to +15 stage, the Fort save isn't likely to stop them ever... Is this a problem?


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## VVrayven

Wow... Still quiet... Well, I had a late night breakthrough!

I figured out a great way to do multiple prowess checks against a single target!

First off, I thought, okay, everybody just goes on their initiative pass, and each check is resolved as it's own entity. The pleasurie's status just builds with each one. But this doesn't make much sense. I think we are streching things enough with the 6-second FULL ROUND action. Three people shouldn't be able to to three or more status increases in six seconds just because they work together. So, individual passes is out.

Next I thought, okay, why not just take the highest arousal increase for the round? Well then that kind of cuts out the other people that are involved. I mean, they are all helping right?

So I came up with this:

Multiple Prowess Checks used on Single Target
Prowess checks are a full round action, thus all of them are resolved for a single target all at once. Each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC neccessary to raise the target's arousal, the base roll recieves a +2 synergy bonus. If a participant simply hits the current arosual state DC there is no modifier. If the participant only can hit an arousal DC lower than the current state, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.

Example: Girl A is pleasuring herself (masturbation) while her partner (Guy B) has intercourse with her (she is only passively using her prowess on him, thus gains the full bonus to her own check and no multiple partner penalty). Both of them are aroused at the start of the round. Girl A has two prowess checks being using on her, (Guy B's and her own). Guy B gets a DC 21 (enough for the DC 20 to peak her) and Girl A gets a DC 19 (enough for the DC 18 to peak her). Guy Bs is the base roll (because it is higher) and it gets a +2 synergy bonus because of Girl A's success. So the final target DC is 20 and the check is a 23 (she is peaked). If instead, Guy B had his a DC 3, Girl A's check would have been the base and suffered a -2 penalty, thus the target DC for peak would be an 18 and the check a 17, and she would still only be aroused.

What do you think? I've toyed with the idea of hitting the even arousal state provided the +2 bonus? Opinions? Wrayven go bed now.  Night guys.


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## Death By Surfeit

My goodness what a slew of contributions! A wonderful slew, might I add, but an awful lot to work through.

*dodges tickles*

Alright, I’ll start by addressing VVrayven’s Big Questions. Incidentally, the ‘Sexual Experience’ Art, or ‘Method of the Veteran’ as I would like to call it, is very good, although follows a significantly different style to the others (ie. Many low-key, low-prerequisite manoeuvres). What does everyone feel about this?

Anyways, in response to your queries, VVrayven,

1) I agree entirely.
2) Perhaps we should just leave it as ‘helpless’, as unless they make the save to be able to respond (almost) normally, that is precisely their situation.
3) So do I. Sorry, I was working from a somewhat antiquated version.
4) Some very good enquiries. Although I didn’t make it at all clear in the draft guide, I only listed Sodomy (receiving) as a proficiency for that exact reason – the person penetrating does not get to make a Prowess check, as there is no listed proficiency and it is not reciprocal.
DSM and Bondage do indeed need tweaking… I had some hazy thoughts around the idea of having those proficiencies for the acts solely relating to Bondage or DSM (such as humiliation/teasing/whatever), as where other checks are used in that context, a kink bonus applies instead (where appropriate).
5) Your late-night revelation (oh, the glories of concussive logic) sounds brilliant. When are Prowess checks worked out then? On the character’s initiative pass after their partner uses it on them (workable, but slightly awkward)?
6) Check.
7) Yes, that was my intention. If anyone could come up with a rewrite that makes this more clear, please do so. Alternatively, I could just insert a sentence stating that it is specifically so.
8) Great idea. An ‘atmosphere’ mod would be a really nice addition (although as this revolves around the physical aspect, mods would be slight).
9) Hmmm…. I have my own apprehensions as to the step mod as people may find it too cumbersome. I’ll come up with some modifiers in a moment, bear with me. What does everyone else think on the matter?
10) There does indeed seem to be gender bias. Now, although female stimulation is not actually much _harder_ per se, it does tend to take more time than male stimulation. Hence, with people making progressive Prowess checks, it works out faster to stimulate a male than a female. If anyone thinks this mode of thinking is flawed, feel free to state so.
11) As Asher so correctly asserted, at –10 subdual HP, you do not die. In fact, subdual damage can just keep increasing and increasing, as its only profound effect is increasing the time before the character comes around.
12) Which one? Oh, right, add ‘smaller’ in there.
13) I’ll second that.
14) Hmmm… okay.

DrAltaica has quite a good idea on the alignment issue – it certainly clears up the rules awkwardness in *shudders* magical sex changes.

Countless adorations to VVrayven for dedicating the time and effort to coming up with a Java program to crunch our numbers – I didn’t want to spend long afternoons crunching dice, and this is a very glamorous alternative indeed.

Asher’s alternative table DCs (athough less stylish, bah) are a good fix to the ‘apparent ineptitude’ bug. I for one would reluctantly condone them.

Oh, and the ‘beauty in the eye of the beholder’ sidebar is a neat idea – I’m thinking along the lines of a +2 love bonus to Charisma in the eyes of a partner in love, or +4 if the partner has taken the True Love feat.

VVrayven, your ideas on issues of gratification are very much pertinent; I would adopt your rewriting of the gratification rules, and would a suggest a brief tweaking of the gratification table – perhaps knock out the ‘2’ step for Hard Focus, continuing as normal.

Although Hard Focus gratification seems much more profound, we do have to realise that getting a really high score is significantly hampered by Fatigue, and such an exhaustive session is likely to leave both characters somewhat, well, Exhausted. When Soft Focus is put up into a sidebar, we should insert a clause stating that both partners end up Fatigued, and a duration of congress based upon the check result (if interrupted or cut short, the result drops accordingly).

That covers the majority of everybody’s contributions, but I cannot take time enough to praise you all for the work you’ve done; indeed the main cause of delay (beyonds living requirements such as partying) has been working out a response to everything submitted. Please get back to me on the suitability of the suggestions posted above, add new content or with demonstrations of their application (in the case of Java Girl).

Cheers,

DbS

PS. Sorn/Kolvar, could you post the working mechanics up onto the site in a collected form (albeit without the modifications we've made)?


----------



## VVrayven

Glad to see you are still alive, DbS. <hugs> 

...sorry in advance for the poor formating. 

I'm also thrilled that you like most of my ideas! I've been having such a great and lovely weekend I decided to hope online and add a bunch of follow ups. <giggles>

--------------------------

"Method of the Veteran" is a fine name, I agree. And I left out that this "style" should probably be a charisma based one, since prowess is charisma based by default.

Helpless status condition is fine for the Delerious thing. 

--------------------------

I believe penetrating sodomy "should" be a prof and should be reciprocal. This is because most of the act is pleasurable by the thrusting and not by the moving of the girl right? Or perhaps it is an art form to recieve, hence the need for the Prof. In any case, Should we have a penetrating sodomy, after all some people "DO" get off on that...

DSM and Bondage need to be removed as prof or altered, I'm glad you agree. No ideas as of yet. I'll but it on the list of discussion topics. 

--------------------------

Gender Bias...
Okay, I know the overall idea is that women take longer to stimulate than men... The point I was trying to make but bumbbled with, is that I think the reverse is true when we are talking about the caressing of non-sex organs. As is right now: To get a Man to climax by caressing his breasts (from peaked) is a DC 26. A peaked female needs a DC 30 to climax by caressing her breasts. In my experience, I've NEVER seen a man climax by caressing his breasts... But I HAVE had an orgasm from 'only' breast caresses. Yet, the DC for a male is still lower... This is where I see a gender bias issue. The individual profs might need to be tweaked, but the DC table is fine in my eyes. I guess in general, just as "TECHNIQUE SUITABILITY" modifies the DC by arousal state, i think it should also do it by gender in some cases.

--------------------------

New subdual rules. Okay, cool! I guess I was remembering 2e. 

--------------------------

Prowess Check & Multiple Partners --- New Workup ---

THE PROWESS CHECK
Performing a Prowess check on someone (including yourself) is a miscellaneous full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity. If an attack of oppurtunity hits you, the damage inflicted is coutned as a penalty to your prowess check. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile.

It is possible to make Prowess checks against more than one partner as the same full-round action; if your character wishes to do so, a penalty of -4 per additional partner is applied to all checks. You cannot make more simultaneous checks than (1+Dex bonus) at any time, unless otherwise stated.

Prowess checks are a full round action and thus all of them are resolved for a single target at the end of the round (they may each be rolled on initiative count, but their effect does not take place until the end of the entire round). Each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC neccessary to raise the target's arousal, the base roll recieves a +2 synergy bonus. If a participant simply hits the current arosual state DC there is no modifier. If the participant only can hit an arousal DC lower than the current state, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.

Example: Girl A is pleasuring herself (masturbation) while her partner (Guy B) has intercourse with her (she is only passively using her prowess on him, thus gains the full bonus to her own check and no multiple partner penalty). Both of them are aroused at the start of the round. Girl A has two prowess checks being using on her, (Guy B's and her own). Guy B gets a DC 21 (enough for the DC 20 to peak her) and Girl A gets a DC 19 (enough for the DC 18 to peak her). Guy Bs is the base roll (because it is higher) and it gets a +2 synergy bonus because of Girl A's success. So the final target DC is 20 and the check is a 23 (she is peaked). If instead, Guy B had his a DC 3, Girl A's check would have been the base and suffered a -2 penalty, thus the target DC for peak would be an 18 and the check a 17, and she would still only be aroused.

When making a Prowess check, you may apply as much or as little of your rank bonus as you desire, but the declaration must be made BEFORE you make the roll. Consult the table below for DCs according to your partner’s present condition, where the numbers on the left represent a male partner, and the ones on the right a female one.

After the check is made, the partner’s Arousal is changed to fit the highest DC the character achieved. They may resist this change by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC equal to the character's Prowess check, adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current \ Target None Aroused Peaked Climaxed Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <1/<5 1/5 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <1/<5 1/5 8/10 16/20 32/40

It is possible to keep a partner in Climax or Ecstasy for more than one round, although this may result in adverse effects (see Status Conditions for more details). In order to do so, use the DCs listed for a Peaked character, but double it for each round spent in Climax or Ecstasy. Thus, a Peaked male character would be DC 16 to raise to Climaxed initially, DC32 the round after that, DC 48 on the third round and so on. If the DC for Climaxed is not sustained, male characters lose all arousal; female characters reside to Aroused instead.

However, after the first round spent in Climax or Ecstasy, each further round spent in Climax does one point of temporary Wisdom damage; each round spent Ecstatic does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage.

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there. In the round in which the check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back on their initiative pass. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.

--------------------------

New Gratification Issues:

Okay, I like the new way of doing gratification, which I will outline below. But now we have one more small problem. In a average encounter, a man climaxes once... That means 1 gratification point MAYBE more... Meanwhile a female can go much higher, much faster, assuming the encounter is going well. This means that while a girl's emotions will always be twisted up by sex as she climbs the Hard Focus chart to Memorable and Fantastic, the guy will always be stuck with statisfying and will never be altered. Now, I don't have a problem with "girls" being more suspetable to "attachment syndrome", but I do think this method is a little skewed as is and the poor guy can never get rapturous sex...  I mean even a CON 16,  can only take 5 orgasms before passing out, if that, and that session is going to take around an hour, most of it with rest time from the 10 min recovery period. My solution, men should probably aquire gratification faster... Suggestions?

But the new system stands as:

Hard Focus rules:
To devote more attention to a given lovemaking session, work things out round by round using the Prowess check mechanics, as explained in ‘The Prowess Check’. When a character becomes Climaxed or Ecstastic, they receive a gratification point plus an additional point for every 5 points by which the test exceeds the base climax DC (modified by circumstance but not arousal state), rounded down to a minimum of 1. Keep a tally of this for each partner and consult the Gratification table at the end of proceedings.

Examples: 

Female is peaked, partner makes DC 26 (target DC 20), the gratificiation is 2 (1 + 6/5 round down).

Female is climaxed, partner makes a DC 41 (target DC 40 base 20), the gratification is 5 (1 + 21/5 round down).

Female is peaked, partner makes a DC 46 (target DC 40 for estacy, base 20), the gratification is 6 (1 + 26/5).

Female is peaked and exhausted, partner makes a DC 46 (target DC 46 for estacy, base 26), the gratification is 5 (1 + 20/5).

Table X-XX: Gratification Table:
Soft Focus / Hard Focus / Performance
<10 / <1 / Disappointing
10 / 1 / Satisfactory
15 / 5 / Enjoyable
20 / 10 / Memorable
30 / 15 / Fantastic
40 / 20 / Extraordinary
50 / 25 / Heavenly
60 / 30 / Rapturous

effects as normal, etc...

--------------------------

Resisting Prowess Rolls:

Saves are left in the dust by skill checks. A 10th level character can get a good +16 to prowess with some work. Fort saves aren't liekly to be anywhere near this... Is this a problem? After +15 and higher, it becomes unlikely that a prowess roll will ever be resisted...

--------------------------

Okay, so the new arousal table is as follows:
Current \ Target None Aroused Peaked Climaxed Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <1/<5 1/5 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <1/<5 1/5 8/10 16/20 32/40

Not mathimatically pretty, but it works. 

--------------------------

New Issue: Shouldn't being exhausted make your rolls suffer? Or is it just harder to stimulate you? Personally I think it should lower your ability a little and make it harder to stimulate you, if people think this is too complex, that's okay...

--------------------------

And now for some more Java Girl... <blush>

I made a slight boo boo in my calcs... But these should work for the new numbers... All of these assume the AI where the female helps herself first and the male second and that the male resists climaxing and peaking...

Avgerage Commoner (+0 Prow, +0 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 8 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 0.171, F Climax Chance 17.1%, Avg F Grat: 0.17

(+1 Prow, +1 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 0.383, F Climax Chance 38.3%, Avg F Grat: 0.38

(+2 Prow, +1 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 0.655, F Climax Chance 55.7%, Avg F Grat: 0.66

(+3 Prow, +1 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 1.011, F Climax Chance 68.5%, Avg F Grat: 1.01

(+5 Prow, +2 Fort, 10 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 10 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 1.89, F Climax Chance 85.3%, Avg F Grat: 2.01

(+10 Prow, +3 Fort, 12 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 9 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 3.63, F Climax Chance 87.4%, Avg F Grat: 4.74

(+15 Prow, +6 Fort, 14 Con)
Avg Intercourse: 10 rounds, Avg F Orgasms: 5.23, F Climax Chance 84.0%, Avg F Grat: 9.79

These are just some averages... But they seem to work well. I'm going to make a new AI for experienced players that allows the woman to hold of for better gratification and see what we come up with.

So that is about it for me right now. 

Here are the open issues:
1. Reciprocal Sodomy?
2. DSM & Bondage as Profs?
3. Clothing Rules?
4. Higher Gratification Rate for Men?
5. Prowess outstripping saves, problem or not?
6. Multiple Prowess success add +2 syngery for equal ot +1 state only?

Take care all. <smiles all around>


----------



## Death By Surfeit

Wotcher,

Apologies once again for the lateness of reply – (insert witty excuse of your choosing here). To address VVrayven’s pertinent questions and wonderful additions:

1) From what I gather, most satisfaction in sodomy is to the penetrator – hence receiving is the only proficiency, as it is used by the recipient against the penetrator.We could allow a penetration prof, as satisfaction is _possible_, it is difficult (cue penalties).
2) Erm… ahh… I’ll get back to you on this one.
3) I’d suggest that most proficiencies be impossible whilst in clothing. Caressing would be possible but with a penalty of –2 to –6 based on thickness of clothing (impossible on opponents wearing armour). Some rules for time spent removing clothing, or unbuckling essential areas, would be appreciated from the team at large. Perhaps 3e armour style: Don, Remove, Remove Hastily D).
4) You’ve somewhat omitted any calculations featuring satisfaction for men. Whilst they cannot sustain quite so many Climaxed states, their DC is significantly lower, hence each orgasm gives more satisfaction tha a woman, given identical rolls. I (roughly) assume this works out to be pretty much on a level with women.
5) My personal opinion on the matter is that it is fine – 3e features an eventual shift of balance from defence winning to offence winning as levels progress (to offset higher hit points somewhat), and this is only kept in accordance. However, if anyone has complaints or would like to suggest an alternative system, fire away.
6) Hmmm… +2. And the system, may I add, is absolutely fantastic. I couldn’t have managed anything near as good myself.

To address your other point, we will, of course, require a little good sense where DMs are concerned – Caress (breasts) will have little effect on a male partner, if any. A brief note asking DMs to exercise a little sensibility would not go amiss where proficiencies are concerned. Anyways, enough from the answer guy for now – I’m off to type up a few notes on kinks.

Cheers,

DbS


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## Asher

I'm still keeping up with the discussion, but don't have anything useful to add at this point.  Just wanted to report that I haven't dropped off the face of the planet.


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## Bastoche

Same here.


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## Death By Surfeit

Well, glad to see that the forum is such a whirlwind of creative activity. There is plenty still to be done, and plenty that the meagrest and most casual reader can achieve. Lurkers, we need you!

Of particular pertinence, although the core mechanics are resolved with a few niggling points outstanding (thanks be to VVrayven's contributions for such), is the kinks system, and wider affairs, namely:

Carnal/Sensual/Whatever spellcasting. The Guide warranted and still deserves a bevy of new spells to accomodate the new rules sets. Should these all be given to spellcasters freely (as in the d20 conversion)? Are we to introduce classes with the specific ability to cast sensual spells (see DbS conversion), with some still available to others? What do people think?

Source Topics. Although the time to work through them is not yet at hand, we would want to know what to cover. Reflecting the more serious nature of the guide than previous editions, I would recommend pregnancy, STDs, racial sexualities (perhaps somewhat condensed or organised) and essays on the nature of sexuality (and the impact of greater gender equality) in the D&D world.

As ever, whatever new spells, monsters, feats, mechanics or whatever that you have are gladly welcomed. It is these nuggets that enliven the guide and keep things fresh.

Hear from you all soon,

DbS

PS. Has anyone heard from Gez? I'm sorry about the disagreement relating to Carnal Arts, but it would be a shame to miss out on his input. Sorn? Has anyone read Kolvar's cryptic and unannounced thread, also on this forum?


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## VVrayven

Heya Guys! (what's Wotcher mean?)

"From what I gather, most satisfaction in sodomy is to the penetrator hence receiving is the only proficiency, as it is used by the recipient against the penetrator.We could allow a penetration prof, as satisfaction is possible, it is difficult (cue penalties)."

Works for me. That concurs with my experience and those I've talked to. I only brought it up because I know we're being strict and I had heard rumors.

"Erm... ahh... I’ll get back to you on this one."

You better.  <giggle>

"You’ve somewhat omitted any calculations featuring satisfaction for men. Whilst they cannot sustain quite so many Climaxed states, their DC is significantly lower, hence each orgasm gives more satisfaction tha a woman, given identical rolls. I (roughly) assume this works out to be pretty much on a level with women."

You are correct, I did forget. JAVA Girl is absent minded sometimes... However, I still maintain that an average encounter is still only going to have one or two male climaxs and as is, the DC difference will account for a +1 gratification difference per climax overall... That's fine when it's low level, but at higher levels it becomes a signifigant difference. However, higher level prowess people are likely to be more experienced and thus try for more male climaxes. In the end I guess it's fine. It just takes a LONG time to get a male to climb the chart because of all those 10 minute waits. 

"My personal opinion on the matter is that it is fine"

Okay. With the Arts I don't think it is much of a problem either. 

"Hmmm... +2. And the system, may I add, is absolutely fantastic. I couldn’t have managed anything near as good myself."

<blush> Thanks. 

"To address your other point, we will, of course, require a little good sense where DMs are concerned Caress (breasts) will have little effect on a male partner, if any."

Okay. Just wanted to point it out.

"I’d suggest that most proficiencies be impossible whilst in clothing. Caressing would be possible but with a penalty of -2 to -6 based on thickness of clothing (impossible on opponents wearing armour). Some rules for time spent removing clothing, or unbuckling essential areas, would be appreciated from the team at large. Perhaps 3e armour style: Don, Remove, Remove Hastily ()."

Fine Fine, you talked me in to it. Ask and you shall recieve!

Clothing

Clothing Set-------------WGT----COST----TYPE------NOTES
Artisan’s Outfit---------4 lb.--1 gp----LIGHT-----
Cleric’s Vestments-------6 lb.--5 gp----MODERATE--
Cold Weather Outfit------7 lb.--8 gp----HEAVY-----
Courtier’s Outfit--------6 lb.--30 gp---MODERATE--USUALLY COMPLEX
Entertainer’s Outfit-----4 lb.--3 gp----LIGHT-----
Explorer’s Outfit--------8 lb.--10 gp---MODERATE--
Monk’s Outfit------------2 lb.--5 gp----LIGHT-----
Noble’s Outfit-----------10 lb.-75 gp---HEAVY-----USUALLY COMPLEX
Peasant’s Outfit---------2 lb.--1 sp----LIGHT-----
Royal Outfit-------------15 lb.-200 gp--HEAVY-----USUALLY COMPLEX
Scholar’s Outfit---------6 lb.--5 gp----LIGHT-----
Traveler’s Outfit--------5 lb.--1 gp----MODERATE--
Harlot's Outfit----------4 lb.--6 gp----LIGHT-----USUALLY EASY ACCESS
Courtesan’s Outfit-------5 lb.--60 gp---MODERATE--
Concubine's Outfit-------2 lb.--* gp----LACE------
Desert Outfit------------3 lb.--6 gp----LIGHT-----
Bodysuit, Black----------1 lb.--30 gp---LIGHT-----
Eleborate Jewelry--------1 lb.--* gp--------------
Undergarments------------1 lb.--* gp----LACE------

*Cost is greatly variable

TYPE------DON-----HASTY------REMOVE----Rend----Rip DC---Penalty--Expose
LACE------2 rnd---1 rnd------1 rnd-----1 hp-----10-------(-2)-----0
LIGHT-----1 min---5 rnd------5 rnd-----4 hp-----20-------(-4)-----5
MODERATE--2 min---1 min------1 min-----8 hp-----30-------(-8)-----10
HEAVY-----4 min---2 min------2 min-----15 hp----40-------(**)-----15

Clothing that is Hastily donned might give a -1 to diplomacy and the like.
Remove times assume you are working quickly and not destroying the garment. If you have help, cut the time in half. Removing clothing is a full-round action.
It is possible to cut off clothing, this requires a standard action and must be done delicately (some kind of check) or you risk hurting the wearer. Each garment has hp equal, this includes ALL parts of the garment. Note that each clothing type above assumes that the one below it exists, thus, MODERATE clothing assumes you have a LIGHT and LACE on underneath, thus if 4 hp of MODERATE were destroyed, the person would now be wearing LIGHT (and LACE). It is also possible to completly rip off clothing all together. The RIP DC is a STR check against the listed DC, if successful, the person is now nude. (Optionally, for every DC 10 you make, you could rip down to the next layer, thus a DC 30 against HEAVY could reduce them to LACE...)

Any Sexual Prof is possible through LACE all at a -2 penalty. If the DM rules the LACE to be totally unabtrusive, such as a intercourse with the lady in nothing but a shift, the penalty can be reduced to a -1 or even 0.

Prowess checks can be made through LIGHT and MODERATE clothing, but only at the listed penalty and only those that don't involve oral or penetration. Prowess checks through HEAVY clothing types is impossible without special circumstances.

Exposing - It is possible to expose vital parts of the body so that prowess checks can be made with more freedom. By making a DEX check a single part of the body can be made accessible (these are usually the genitals, but the DM could rule otherwise). Exposing allows penetration and oral profs to be used, and halves the prowess penalty. If HEAVY clothing is exposed, the penalty is a -8.

Special Types of Clothing:

COMPLEX - Complex clothing has lots of strings, lace, ties, and is generally a pain to get into and out of. Complex clothing requires doubles all DONNING and REMOVING times and cannot ever be DONNED HASTILY. All EXPOSE checks have their DCs raised by 5 in complex clothing and the prowess penalties are increased by -2.

EASY ACCESS - These clothes are meant to allow people to gain sexual access to them. They are always considered EXPOSED, although the garmet DOES cover the vital areas in some fashion.

This needs serious fleshing out, but what do you think?

Well, that's about it for right now. I might post a little bit later.  I've still got those two sexual arts that are still on the drawing board.... <sigh> I'll get them done sometime.

I can't wait to see your KINKS section DbS.  I haven't heard from Gez in a while either...   But Lily posted a little while ago. 

Take care all. Wrayven out for now...


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## Sorn

Still here. Worked has crept up to me again and made a vicious sneak attack. 

Anyway... re: Kolvar's thread... look at the date. That's my guess. If that is not the case, could someone check up on him and make sure he's alright?  

Spells:
I think we should just add them to the existing spell lists. I don't really care for custom spell lists for PrC's. The nice thing about d20 is its modular nature. If I want to, I can use spells from all kinds of sources. However, quite a few times Spell X would make a lot of sense for Class Y's custom spell list, but unfortunately the two publishers don't know about each other's spells/classes. So, you have to go through the spells with a fine-toothed comb and hope your GM let's you add Spell X to your list. 

IMO, PrC's that grant spells should only be accesible for people who can already cast (and they should get a +1 caster level at regular intervals instead of a custom progression). 

If we end up with PrC's that should be better with certain spells, we can give out a free Spell Focus feat in the appropriate school or simply give the class a bonus with certain spell subtypes.


Source Topics:
Your suggestions all sound good. Maybe go light on the essays...  things like that can derail fairly easy into something dry or controversial.


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## Bastoche

*About spells*

A priori, I think spells should be viewed as material for hard focus rules. Therefore I would be more inclined to include then as part of prestige classes spells list and/or new classes spell lists and/or as a new school/domain acquirable via feats and/or character creation.

For example, we could create an alternate soreceror that focus on sensual spells. We would have to include normal spells on the spell list as well to make that class "adventurable" in a "standard D&D" adventure sense. 

Another example: A cleric could choose a sex domain to access sensual spells and wizards could add sensual spells in their spellbooks from a ninth school and sorceror could choose from the same spell list as wizards.

Or the new school could be accessable by spending a feat. Maybe this could work like a specialist school for arcane spells and would require the character to drop another school.

Bards could access some sensual spells too. 

Among the other spellcasting classes, only paladin could acquire "anti"-sex spells.

Just some random suggestions...


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## Sorn

VVrayven:

Great job. I really like the Outfit rules. However, why aren't the Courtesan and Concubine outfits easily accessible like the Harlot's outfit? Granted, half the fun is taking stuff off, but still.

Bastoche:
I have to disagree. Apart from what I said in my earlier post, spells shouldn't be hard focus. Some of them will surely fall into that category, but the majority will be general purpose. 

New cleric domains are not a problem, but adding new schools of magic is a major headache. The effects of any of our spells should easily be classified into the existing schools. Adding a [Sensual] subtype would be the better way to go. 

Why would only the Paladin get "anti-sex" spells? A Wizard or Sorcerer  or Cleric could just as easily have a grudge against sex or be a militant abstinent. There is nothing in any book I have seen so far that states that Paladins have to be celibate or can't enjoy sex. Granted, I'd seriously raise an eyebrow at a Paladin who cheats on his spouse or sleeps with a whole town, but in general, they are just like everybody else in the bedroom.

The other overarcing factor for me here is that we've been working hard on this for quite some time now. If we restrict sexual magic to the degree that you are proposing, only very few people will ever use the spells. Not everybody wants to take a sexual prestige class or spend a feat just to cast a handful of sensual spells. 

IMO, for most people, one of  the biggest drawing points of the book will be the spells. Not all groups will use the Sexual Prowess rules or STD's or pregnancy rules. Spells are the easiest to drop into any running campaign, since you can pick and choose. Taking only part of the Sexual Prowess rules will take some serious tweaking, but picking a spell or two won't take any effort at all. Hence, if you restrict the spells, a lot of people will download the book and say "That's nice, but way too involved for my taste." and then shelf it away. I think that with the amount of time and effort spent on this, we should make it useable as possible.


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## Bastoche

I forgot to mention that there could be one soft focus list and one hard focus list.

But still, most spells if not all spells in the player's handbook has direction conscequences on combat mechanics. Why should it be any other way for the sex spells.

My point is that most sensual spells will directly affect the hard focus rules mechanics. From that point of view, they would be better suited for a hard focus campaign. I think soft focus spells are already covered by new uses of old spells. I could think of transmutation spells and enchantment spells for instance.

I conceed your point for both paladins and new arcane spell list. I was thinking about it at the same time I wrote my previous post but kept it there just for ideas.

I personnaly would not be tempted to use sensual spells in a soft focus campaign.  And I also think that hard focus spells would most probably override any soft focus spells.

I'm not quite sure how spells should be thought of for GUCK, but I think they're better suited for hard focus. At least, that's what I would do with them anyway. I would not be tempted to play a hard focus game where sex is not the main theme, therefore sensual prestige class would rather be the goal of character development, somehow. There wouldn't be as many fights in such a campaign as there would be sex intercourse between the characters and the NPCs.

Am I wrong when I assume that hard focus rules are intended for a highly sex themed campaign or is it just a more detailed way to rule a sideline?


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## kolvar

Well done Sorn, although you got the benefit of knowing german and are probably able to translate "Narr" as fool (I did not want to go deeper into hint).
On the other side, it never hurts to check if I am alright (g)


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## asra

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> Special Types of Clothing:
> 
> COMPLEX - Complex clothing has lots of strings, lace, ties, and is generally a pain to get into and out of. Complex clothing requires doubles all DONNING and REMOVING times and cannot ever be DONNED HASTILY. All EXPOSE checks have their DCs raised by 5 in complex clothing and the prowess penalties are increased by -2.
> 
> EASY ACCESS - These clothes are meant to allow people to gain sexual access to them. They are always considered EXPOSED, although the garmet DOES cover the vital areas in some fashion.
> *




How about:

SEDUCTIVE - Those clothes are ment to enhance sex appeal, providing a +1 equipment synergy bonus for seduction rules. A mastercraft version will enhance this bonus further to +2. Note that in certain cases, such clothing might cause a penelty in social reactions (such as in a church).

FASHIONABLE - Those clothes are the latest fashion trend and will provide +1 equipment synergy bonus to social reactions in the appropriate circumstances.


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## Sorn

Kolvar: 
Actually, I just took the Obi-Wan reference as that... a Star Wars inspired sig. I was a little surprised to see a German sig on a predominantly English-speaking board though. The only reason I realized it was a prank was the fact that I had just read the ENWorld news page. Nobody at home or in the office pulled any pranks on me this year, so if it hadn't been for ENWorld, I would  have completely missed it. 

Bastoche:
You raise an interesting question. How exactly do we define and cover hard-focus? Going with my earlier comments, I think that the soft-focus rules will be more widely used. 

In any case, I am not so sure that there will all that many spells that will only work in a hard-focus game. 

Looking at the current list, most of them fall into the following categories:
a) Pregnancy-related spells 
b) Changing target's sexual state (this includes things like arousal, sexual orientation, etc as well as detecting or protecting against said items)
c) Sexual Utility spells (there aren't actually all that many, but "Slap" and some of the conjuration spells like "Sex Toy" come to mind).

Obviously, anything related to pregnancy is applicable in both soft-focus and hard-focus games. The utility spells from category C are similar and don't affect the core mechanics all that much (although certain spells might provide bonuses.. like the abovementioned "Sex Toy). Still, this shouldn't make a difference when it comes to hard or soft focus. Category B spells don't seem to overly rely on the core mechanics as of right now. Most of them are used to prepare a target for sex, be it divining their preferences or raising them to a higher arousal state right off the bat. The remainder are either protection spells (be it arousal or STD's) or run-of-the-mill general purpose spells (albeit with a sexual twist). 

I have picked a quite a few spells for my characters, and our game would definitely be classified as soft-focus. Sex scenes are usually a fade-to-black situation, something which will hopefully change soon now that we have great mechanics 

Asra:
I like those. One suggestion though: Instead of assigning them to the outfits on the list, how about treating them in a similar fashion as the armor add-ons (like spikes)? This way, someone could buy a "fashionable" Courtier's outfit, or a "seductive" Peasant's outfit. 

Fashionable should have a x1.5-x3 price multiplier (maybe even more).

Not sure on Seductive, but a x1.5-x2 doesn't sound too unreasonable.

While we are at it, we could also add the other ends of the spectrum... "Unfashionable" for those behind the times and "Tight Laced/Buttoned Up" for the prudes.


----------



## Bastoche

If the spell list doesn't change, I guess they could be usable in both scenario which would be a good thing. Although I think we could easily imagine hard focus only spells that influence the mechanic directly. I should go and check the old list first...


----------



## Sorn

Bastoche:
A few hard-focus only spells would certainly be a good idea. Or, maybe even better, spells that are be useable in both soft and hard focus, but with information for both mechanics.


----------



## VVrayven

Just to add something to this little Soft Focus/Hard Focus discussion. First of all, the Soft Focus rules are a sidebar. They are indented to resolve around 6 min to up to an hour of rolls and stuff into a single die roll. Soft Focus does not make use of any of our Carnal Feats (unless they give a FLAT OUT Modifier) nor does it make use of the status conditions (execpt to list that the partners are Fatigues or worse afterwards). Soft Focus does not have very good solid mechanics, that is because it is a quick resolution system. This topic of what spells should be what type sounds a little off to me.

Most of the spells in the old guide would be what we would term "Hard Focus". Arousing someone with a spell has "no effect" in Soft Focus rules. Even making someone peak or climax has no game effect unless you use the Hard Focus rules. Basiclly the way the new guide has turned, is that the base core set of mechanical rules ARE Hard Focus. Soft Focus is used only for a quick encounter and when all the action is "behind closed doors".

Now, I suppose some of spells could have a sub section for what bonuses or penalties (or effect) they have on the single soft focus roll. Good idea, Sorn. And I do agree that soft focus will be used more on the whole, but much of this guide is crippled without the application of the Hard Focus rules.

As for clothing, yes, those things were meant to be additions similar to armor enhancements.

As for "Unfashionable", well really ties, lace, and buttons were considered "in-fashion" back in the day, but regardless, these types of garments that are difficult to get on and off are already covered with the COMPLEX garment add-on.

So the Garment ADD-ON list is (so far):

COMPLEX: No Quickly Don Possible, Double remove and don time, EXPOSE checks DC +5, prowess penalties increased by -2. Cost Modifier: x1 per TYPE

Easy Access: Always considered EXPOSED. Cost Modifier: x1 (+.5 per TYPE)

Seductive: +1 seduce bonus, Cost Modifier: x1 (+.5 per TYPE)

Fashionable: +1 social relations, Cost Modifer: x3

All of them stack as well. So a Sexy, Easy Access, Fashionable Explorer's Outfit would be:
(base 10gp, MODERATE) - (2.0 for sexy), (2.0 for easy access), (3.0 for fashionable)

Use the basic add all multiples in 3e we get an outfit which costs: 10 gp x 7 = 70 gp.


----------



## Psyckosama

VVrayven, I don't think any clothing should ever be "always" anything. For example, look at the Noble/royal clothing of... say... Egyptian, Fedual Japanese, and the aristocratic clothing used by noble/rich Classical Greek and Roman women. For the most part on those three cases it was light, simple, and rather easy 'access'.

The complexity is a cultural/fassion issue. No all nobles are going to be in the nightmarishly complex "buckles and laces" clothing of the 1400-1500s.

Now, I really should get back to work on my Pregency rules, now shouldn't it?


----------



## Gez

I wanted to post this yesterday, but completely forgot. Better late than never, though. Here's a carnal creature.


----------



## VVrayven

> I don't think any clothing should ever be "always" anything. For example, look at the Noble/royal clothing of... say... Egyptian, Fedual Japanese, and the aristocratic clothing used by noble/rich Classical Greek and Roman women. For the most part on those three cases it was light, simple, and rather easy 'access'.




I agree with you. The only reason I set that as such is that the outfit packagaes listed are those found in the PHB which are relatively "well-defined". I think they intend the set weight and cost noble clothing package to be just like the 1400-1500s set. However, like I said, I conceed your point and shall remove the "always" descriptor. 

We are getting close to needing your pregnacy rules too. 

Gez: That's just scary, and it takes a lot to scare me. ::shivers::


----------



## Psyckosama

> *
> 
> I agree with you. The only reason I set that as such is that the outfit packagaes listed are those found in the PHB which are relatively "well-defined". I think they intend the set weight and cost noble clothing package to be just like the 1400-1500s set. However, like I said, I conceed your point and shall remove the "always" descriptor. *




Okay. I see you're point. I disagree with it, but maybe a footnote is in order. Some clothing is heavy but reletively simple to put on, like geavy robes, but still simple to remove. I think a sample list is in order... 



> * We are getting close to needing your pregnacy rules too.
> 
> *





Good. I want to wait until the sex rules are done with so it doesn't get cut off. I really have no been contributing much because I honestly doubt that I'll ever be using the detailed sex act rules (we generally wing it or roll a couple of dice to get a generalized outcome... no fine detail) but I like to run realistic and somewhat gritty campaigns so functional pregnancy rules are useful to me... I'll post a revised version 'soon'.


----------



## Psyckosama

Here's the rules as they stand right now...



> The Base chance of getting pregnant is a DC15 Constitution check with the following modifiers where a natural 1 is always failure to consceve and a 20 is always a suceess. (make the save and the woman is pregnent. Fail and she isn't) This save is made once a month. It is made by the DM.
> 
> Modifiers:
> Physical:
> Age of optimal fertility (in humans, 16-30): +1
> Past age of optimal fertility (in humans, about 40-50): -1
> Nursing Young: -2
> 
> Trying to get pregnent:
> Actively trying to get pregnant: +2
> Fertility Drugs: +2 to +4
> Fertility magic: CL/2+1
> 
> Limited Sexual Activity:
> One week out of the month: -2
> Two Weeks: -1
> Once: -4
> 
> Racial Modifiers:
> Very Low Fertility race: -4(IE: Elf)
> Low Fertility Race: -2 (IE: Dwarf)
> Moderate Fertility Race: 0 (IE: Humans)
> High Ferlility race: +2 (IE: Orcs)
> 
> Paternal Modifiers:
> Impotent Mate: -1
> Very Low Potency race: -2
> Low Potency Race: -1
> Moderate Potency Race: 0
> High Potency race: +1
> 
> Contraceptives:
> Rhythm Method: -3
> "The Pill" (normal): -4
> Magic (normal): - (CL/2 + 1)
> Barrier: -5
> 
> High quality contraception, such as careful and regular casting of contraceptive magic, magic items, close adherence to the pill’s schedule, or other reliable methods only seceded on a natural 20
> 
> Abstinence and Sterilization (Magical or Otherwise) negates the need to roll, baring divine interference.
> 
> If the pregency is sucessful, conferm with a Con check on a d20 adding only physical and racial modifiers.




Any ideas?... and we definatly need rules FOR being pregnant, and maybe some rules and equipment for how to handle children and dependents.


----------



## Vaxalon

If she always becomes pregnant on a 20, then your average couple is going to have a child every year.


----------



## Psyckosama

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *If she always becomes pregnant on a 20, then your average couple is going to have a child every year. *




not really... Going by always on a roll of 20, it's a 5% chance not counting the confermation roll. Now, as for the woman getting pregnant once every year or two (very VERY possible with the rules), just keep in mind pregnant women can't get pregnant, and then consider how large famlies were prior to modern birth control... many women would have seven or eight, maybe more children. 

Very large famlies with many children were the norm for a very long time. Many of those children never would reach adulthood, so you needed to have many.

With magic replacing modern medicine (clerics with enough class levels can cover much of what modern medicine can, and in some parts, more) and higher child survival rates, I see contreceptive charms being popular... (and probelly all but massproduced)


----------



## Vaxalon

No, you misunderstand.

Maybe not every year.  Every other year.

It takes an average of 20 months for ANY woman to get pregnant.

Take all of the penalties, slam them all together.  Con 3, nursing, 45 years old, it all doesn't matter.

After an average of 20 months, she's pregnant.


----------



## asra

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> Prowess checks are a full round action and thus all of them are resolved for a single target at the end of the round (they may each be rolled on initiative count, but their effect does not take place until the end of the entire round). Each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC neccessary to raise the target's arousal, the base roll recieves a +2 synergy bonus. If a participant simply hits the current arosual state DC there is no modifier. If the participant only can hit an arousal DC lower than the current state, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.
> *




Maybe I'm missing something, but under the suggested rules, what good are Multiple Partners?

If we look at the gratifaction DCs,  they are usually more then 10 DCs apart for each state. If to raise the Prowess roll, participants have to achive arousal increase, then the effects of multiple situmulation are apparently nearly neglable, especially regarding that under the hard core rules requires a additional 5 success to add 1 to the gratifaction table.

In the example, having both A & B succeed didn't seem to make much of a difference. 

BTW, is there a maximal number for multiple partners?


----------



## Xeriar

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *No, you misunderstand.
> 
> Maybe not every year.  Every other year.
> 
> It takes an average of 20 months for ANY woman to get pregnant.
> 
> Take all of the penalties, slam them all together.  Con 3, nursing, 45 years old, it all doesn't matter.
> 
> After an average of 20 months, she's pregnant. *




In early colonial times the marriage was considered unsuccessful if the wife was not pumping out a child a year.


----------



## Psyckosama

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *No, you misunderstand.
> 
> Maybe not every year.  Every other year.
> 
> It takes an average of 20 months for ANY woman to get pregnant.
> 
> Take all of the penalties, slam them all together.  Con 3, nursing, 45 years old, it all doesn't matter.
> 
> After an average of 20 months, she's pregnant. *




Maybe I didn't make it clear... you still have to make the confermation roll. 

Lets add the modifiers... 

Normal roll needed (no counting critical sucess)... 15+3(con)+2(nursing)+1(age)=21... she need a critical... lets apply it to the confermation test... DC10 (didn't mention this) + 6... she needs to roll above a 16 this time. okay... now what do we have...

1/20 x 4/20 = 2/400 or 1/100

So she has a 1 in 100 chance of getting pregnant with the stats you gave. Will that woman have a baby with what you gave? 

No bloody likely.

Now, lets try a normal woman, no birthcontrol who doesn't WANT a baby but is not adverse to the idea... Lets say she's age 25 with 10 con 

She has no con bonus and a + 1 for her age. She has to roll over a 14, and after that, over a 9... lets see...

6/20 x 11/20... a solid 17% chance. 

Now, lets try you normal PC level character... lets say a level 5 half-elf mage with 12 con. 

+1 for her con. 

now  say she's in the optimal age of fertility giving her a +1

 as a half elf she's between human and elf making her a member of a low fertility race giving her a -2 

now lets reasonably she's been knee deep in dungeon muck for the last week (not exactly an enviroment where you git jiggy with it) a -1 for only 2 weeks of activity.

Now, finally, as a responcible woman who is not dumbass enough to rish pregancy with her profression, she uses magical contraception 5/2 + 1 = 3.5... lets boot that up to a 4 by rounding.

first roll = 15 - 1 - 1 + 2 + 2 + 4.... 21... only on a crit.

Now with the second roll we remove the situational modifiers, as it repersents not if she concieved but it the conception takes (IE: she's not just "late")

Second rold (if we get said crit) 10 - 2 + 2 = DC10... Her health and youthfulness cancle out her racial infertility.

So, 1/20 x 10/20 = or about 3% chance of pregency... contraception works, but it's not totally idiot proof. There is still a chance even if your careful.

One more... lets say a lady paladin, slightly past her prime who has found her soulmate and is ready to retire... 

No old yet, but pst her prime... +0

A fighting class, so a high con is likely, lets say a 16... +3

She wants a child and they're trying. +2

She _really_ wants a baby so she has a level 12 cleric friend cast a fertility spell on her... +7

1st 15 - 12 = DC3 

2nd 10 -3 = DC7

17/20 x 13/20 = a massive 55%


----------



## VVrayven

> Okay. I see you're point. I disagree with it, but maybe a footnote is in order. Some clothing is heavy but reletively simple to put on, like geavy robes, but still simple to remove. I think a sample list is in order...




I said I agreed and changed it silly,  I'll make a sample list though, the general idea is to allow any clothing to fit into one of the four types, Heavy cloaks doesn't automatically mean the garment is heavy, in fact, one big heavy robe is probably LIGHT. 



> I really have no been contributing much because I honestly doubt that I'll ever be using the detailed sex act rules (we generally wing it or roll a couple of dice to get a generalized outcome... no fine detail)




More power to ya, just trying to cover all angles.



> Maybe I'm missing something, but under the suggested rules, what good are Multiple Partners?




::smiles:: In real life, what good are mutliple partners? Just teasing, but my point is that while some people do get off a lot faster with mutliple people, the stimulation benefit isn't that great. (if they have a kink for it that's another +2 to +4 though). +2 syngery on an even arousal (we are changing that, if you hit their current condition, you get the +2), is pretty signifigant. Remember, the system is balanced around common folk, not epic heroes. +2 might not mean much if you have a +24, but if you are a normal jow with a +4, your chances with a helping hand from a partner increased the chance to peak her from 15% to 25%. If you have a threesome and she helps herself too that's a 35% chance. It isn't good for the gratification, but it is good for success.

I see no reason to put a cap on the number of possible partners, after all, they WILL RUN OUT of prof to use. A girl could be penetrated only one (her giving oral can't help her out, and recieving sodomy doesn't give pleasure at the moment by the rules). One other person could use Caress on her breats, she could masturbate herself, that's three. After that you start running out of options... 



> In the example, having both A & B succeed didn't seem to make much of a difference.




Ah. True, in the example they don't. However, if the guy is concerned with helping her with her orgasm, two people are FAR better than one. IF one person is rolling against a DC 20 and they each have a +3, they have a 90% to fail the roll. However, the odds of BOTH of them failing are only 81%. If they had a third partner, the chance of failing becomes 72%. So by the odds, having more people obviously helps, but it doesn't neccessarily add an outstanding bonus. And it shouldn't. This is just they way multiple checks CAN be made, more isn't ALWAYS better. 

Hope that helps, Asra. Sorry if I was unclear, but it's late for me and I'm really sleepy. Bedtime. <yawn and waves>


----------



## Gez

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *Any ideas?... and we definatly need rules FOR being pregnant, and maybe some rules and equipment for how to handle children and dependents. *




Well, if you hadn't seen it, here's the last thing I typed in the other thread:



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> *As I said in the other thread, we should avoid using % when a modifier may apply. % are mainly for random treasures or random encounters (which I don't use heavily, I prefer to choose as a DM), random chance of getting wings if half-celestial or half-fiend (which, again, I don't really like, since that should rather be decided by the DM -- and the player if it's a PC), for fiends summoning some of their ilk (which, in my opinion, is a bad idea and a leftover from 2e, but there was another thread about that), and for stabilization roll (idem).
> 
> So, let say we rename this second table to something like "Successfull pregnancy modifiers".  At the base, that would be a Fortitude saving throw, at let say DC 15. Then we add these modifiers to the DC:
> 
> Baby Race:
> Dwarf: +1
> Elf: +4
> Gnome: +1
> Half-Elf: +2
> Half-Orc: -1
> Halfling: +2
> Human: +0
> ----------------
> Orc: -2
> Goblin: -2
> Hobgoblin: -4
> 
> Per extra baby: +2*
> * Twins: +2, triplets +4, etc. If the save is failed just because of this extra baby modifier, this means that part of the babies survive, and part are miscarried.
> 
> So, a woman waiting half-elves twins would get a Fortitude save DC 15+2+2 = 19. If she roll a total of 19 or more, congratulation to her. If she roll a total of 17 or 18, she'll only birth one child. If she roll a total of 16 or below, the two babies are stillborn.
> 
> Let's take now a orc woman pregnant of a triplets of half-orcs. Her DC will be 15-1+4=18. A result of 18 or more means 3 babies, 16 or 17 means 2, 14 or 15 means only one, 13 or less means none.
> 
> 
> My numbers have been estimated quite simply, you have a scale of DC. Medium breeders (humans) are at 0. Slow breeders are at +2. Fast breeders are -2. If frail (racial Con penalty), you go up one degree of difficulty higher, (i.e., elves go from +2 to +4). If stout (racial Con bonus), you go down one degree (dwarf, gnome, hobgoblin are example of that). Cross-breeds use the DC adjustment closest to their parental average, rounded up if need be.
> 
> 
> +4
> +2
> +1
> 0
> -1
> -2
> -4
> 
> Also, with this table, it is easier for an elven woman to birth a half-elf child than a full elven one.
> 
> 
> This certainly may benefit from some fine-tuning. *


----------



## Sorn

Clothing
Excellent work, VVrayven. 

Soft/Hard-Focus
Ok, I must have gotten turned around somewhere. Must be all that work, but for some reason I thought that soft-focus was the order of the day, with hard-focus being the sidebar. 

In any case, a lot of the current spells are still applicable to either focus. Even a spell that adjusts the target to 'Aroused' or 'Peaked' will work in a soft focus environment, albeit with different applications. As an example, picture a Bard bringing an audience member to the brink of an orgasm with what she thinks is a simple song. (I guess that sheds some light on all those Boy Bands). I agree that the environment changes somewhat from the bedroom to those other applications, but it's still workable. 

The status conditions we have set up will work irregardless of whether you play hard focus, soft focus, or no focus at all. Ok, so they wouldn't really affect a Prowess check in Soft Focus, but a character can still be aroused, or horny, or peaked. 

Once we get to spells, we can go through and decide what kind of bonuses certain spells should give in a soft-focus situation. Bear in mind that even a hard-focus game might opt to do a few soft-focus rolls for quick encounters that don't advance the story, so we should have a working solution for that. 

Pregnancy:
The mechanics look good. However, I am not sure I like the idea of a monthly roll. In my current game, the two women in the party are very sexually active, with multiple partners each. With the monthly roll, even the DM wouldn't know who the father was. I'd rather see a system where pregnancy is resolved on an encounter basis (should the male climax). This of course could lead to the necessity to implement menstruation rules. I think both women in my group would lynch the DM that introduces such rules. 

Anyone else have an opinion on this?


----------



## Psyckosama

> *
> 
> Pregnancy:
> The mechanics look good. However, I am not sure I like the idea of a monthly roll. In my current game, the two women in the party are very sexually active, with multiple partners each. With the monthly roll, even the DM wouldn't know who the father was. I'd rather see a system where pregnancy is resolved on an encounter basis (should the male climax).  *




IMHO an encouter to encounter basis is just too much book keeping... I like monthly because its less work.

As for who the father is, make up a random table and roll it out, choose out of a hat, or just do the fun part and make it the most inconvienient option 



> *
> This of course could lead to the necessity to implement menstruation rules. I think both women in my group would lynch the DM that introduces such rules.
> 
> *




... If I was forced to makeup menstruation rules, I'd lynch _myself_. They'd just too be complex and hard to keep track of... of course they also add some sadistic fun potential...

If you're willing to keep track you can always introduce a fun little think from the anime _Slayers_... female magic users lose the ability to focus their magical ability during "that time of the month".


----------



## Sorn

Psyckosama:

I see your point. One of the pros of monthly pregnancy resolution would be the uncertainty factor. 

Now, how do we handle twins, triplets, etc. with this system? Have a flat chance for each race? Have a baby die for each race (e.g. Elf "litters" are 1d10-7 babies, minimum of 1 on a confirmed pregnancy) Beating the DC by X? 

Personally, I'd go with the baby die. Allows us to come up with decent averages. 

The flat chance would lead to d100 rolls, which I personally don't like in the d20 system. 

Beating the DC is a can of worms. Imagine someone trying really hard to conceive a baby. All the couple wants is a single child, but to be sure, they use every method known to man to conveive and end up with a monstrous birth of 9 children. 

Gez's system seems to be going in the direction of increased DC's for twins, etc. However, I don't think anyone is trying to get twins or triplets. It just happens, so I am not too keen on that approach. 

Once it is confirmed that it's twins, additional modifiers to labour and delivery of course apply for multiple births.


----------



## Gez

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Gez's system seems to be going in the direction of increased DC's for twins, etc. However, I don't think anyone is trying to get twins or triplets. It just happens, so I am not too keen on that approach.*




Just roll. And look at the result.


----------



## Psyckosama

> *
> 
> I see your point. One of the pros of monthly pregnancy resolution would be the uncertainty factor. *




Yep... she doesn't know until you tell her (or she figures it out after a few early fort tests to resist nausia). 



> *Now, how do we handle twins, triplets, etc. with this system? Have a flat chance for each race? Have a baby die for each race (e.g. Elf "litters" are 1d10-7 babies, minimum of 1 on a confirmed pregnancy) Beating the DC by X?
> 
> Personally, I'd go with the baby die. Allows us to come up with decent averages.
> 
> The flat chance would lead to d100 rolls, which I personally don't like in the d20 system.
> 
> Beating the DC is a can of worms. Imagine someone trying really hard to conceive a baby. All the couple wants is a single child, but to be sure, they use every method known to man to conveive and end up with a monstrous birth of 9 children.
> 
> Gez's system seems to be going in the direction of increased DC's for twins, etc. However, I don't think anyone is trying to get twins or triplets. It just happens, so I am not too keen on that approach. *




Here's my sugestion... when you do the confermation role on a critical your roll again to conferm it. If there is a sucessful confermation, twins. If your critical AGAIN, trips. Then you conferm it... this can keep going and going until you stop rollign criticals.

Racial modifiers should increase the threat range as should magic...

Here are threat ranges:
Moderate Fertility Race: 19/20
Low/Very Low Fertility: 20
High Fertility : 17-20

Now, as for magic... add Caster Level/4 to the threat range adding up... adds some risks to useing magic to have children... you might end up with way too many.



> *Once it is confirmed that it's twins, additional modifiers to labour and delivery of course apply for multiple births. *




Well, lets come up with the rules for giving birth and pregnancy before we start thinking about how to change them.


----------



## Sorn

Gez: So in essence, the higher you roll, the more babies you get? See my example for a couple trying very hard to get a child, and ending up with a litter. 

Psyckosama:
I like that idea. Probably easier to implement than my baby dice too. 

For the magic aspect, are you proposing to add that to the threat range for the mother, the father, or both? 

I.e. if Commoner Susan is impregnated by Wizard Joe, does she have a higher chance for twins? If Wizard Joe does the same to Sorceress Lucy, is the chance even higher? 




> Well, lets come up with the rules for giving birth and pregnancy before we start thinking about how to change them.




Absolutely. Didn't mean to jump the gun here. Just wanted to make a point that there will be modifiers for carrying twins/trips/whatever, but that those modifiers occur at a later stage, not during conception.


----------



## Psyckosama

> *Psyckosama:
> I like that idea. Probably easier to implement than my baby dice too.
> 
> For the magic aspect, are you proposing to add that to the threat range for the mother, the father, or both?
> 
> I.e. if Commoner Susan is impregnated by Wizard Joe, does she have a higher chance for twins? If Wizard Joe does the same to Sorceress Lucy, is the chance even higher? *




The rolls are for the mother, never for the father... reproduction is very involved for the mother... the guy only has to cum with maybe a +1/-1 modifer depending on his potency (cums water vs. super sperm).

The woman does all the real work. Once the guy has done his 'buisness', he means absoutly nothing when the biology is conscerned.

Also, when I mentioned magic affecting the chanced for twins, ect. I was talking about fertility magic. 





> *Absolutely. Didn't mean to jump the gun here. Just wanted to make a point that there will be modifiers for carrying twins/trips/whatever, but that those modifiers occur at a later stage, not during conception. *




I know, I now... but it's too early to seriously worry about that.


----------



## Vaxalon

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *The woman does all the real work. Once the guy has done his 'buisness', he means absoutly nothing when the biology is conscerned.*




Assuming real world biology.


----------



## Psyckosama

Oh yeah, guys, do you think you should get EXP for sex, and if so, how much for what?


----------



## Sorn

Ok, mother only is cool. And my bad re: magic. Didn't realize that you were specifically refering to fertility magic... I thought you meant magic users in general (which would make a certain amount of sense from a certain angle). 

XP for sex is probably best left to DM's discretion.


----------



## Psyckosama

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Assuming real world biology. *




And when there is an exception to the rules, it will be noted.


----------



## SinbadBleu

*Breast Size Affects*

I may have missed it in going thru the large amount of messages in this topic. You have the affects of a male member size but what about the size of the females breasts.

One could you the size tables like you do for the males.

Size above normal for your race could have interesting affects on males.

Also the number of breasts could have affects too.

I finally was able to post here.


----------



## Bastoche

Breast size is much more subjective IMO than organ size (be it phallus size or orifices size) orifices and phallus was considered and not breast size. I wouldn't want to go into that kind of details and I would implicitly out that in charisma and/or comeliness (in the was case, in 3E it's arbitrary. You could in principle play an ugly high charisma character or a beautiful uncharismatic character). Since the mechanics is based on charisma and not comeliness; since breats size is a comeliness thing, it shouldn't affect the rolls IMO.


----------



## Sorn

Bastoche, my thoughts exactly. Besides, preferences on breast size vary significantly between people. Personally, I like smaller breasts, while others love mega-honking gazongas. Coming up with modifiers would be rather pointless. 

Granted, a randomized racial size chart might be interesting for entertainment value. However, the size/height charts should give you a decent idea on averages. Elves should be rather small, dwarves somewhat bigger, and half-orcs pretty big, with humans across the whole range.


----------



## SinbadBleu

*Breast Size 1A*

Well my intention was not to get into specifics either. The size would the average for that race. Let say for example a human is average size in the breasts. 

If she was able to increase the size to say above average(one size larger), she might get a plus one to sedection rolls. 

If she was two sizes larger she would get a plus two to seductions rolls. 

Anything larger than two sizes larger than your race would get you negatives on your seduction rolls, unless the seductee was a breast fetishist.<G>

If you think that size does not matter in Breasts well you need to talk to the Dancers In Bars, topless or not. Bigger Breasts mean bigger tips. Even the ones that have been enhanced beyond the limits still garner more in tips than their smaller natural? equiped sisters.

I have heard from guys that they prefer small breasts but I have found on many occasions when a large breasted women trys to seduce them the guys do not turn them down.

You have posted feats that increase the size on mans penis, you could have the same for breasts. 

Besides my wife has told me more than once when she talked amoung the girls it is not the length but the thickness that gives them increased pleasure. Unless she was Size Queen. 

You also have those that like the kink of having breast sex/intercourse. Yes if would be harder for the female to orgasm but not impossible. ie a higher DC.

I will gather to gether some more ideas on the vein.


----------



## Bastoche

*Re: Breast Size 1A*



			
				SinbadBleu said:
			
		

> *Well my intention was not to get into specifics either. The size would the average for that race. Let say for example a human is average size in the breasts. *



*

Even this is too specific IMO.




			If she was able to increase the size to say above average(one size larger), she might get a plus one to sedection rolls.
		
Click to expand...



We do not consider seduction rolls. This is left to the DM on purpose. The mechanic suggested here only treats sexual acts. What comes before and after is left to each group of players. The consensus here, if I'm not mistaken is that seduction, love, etc should be treated throughout roleplay and not rollplay.




			You have posted feats that increase the size on mans penis, you could have the same for breasts.
		
Click to expand...



Like I said above, this is treated because it has a direct influence on the sex act. And not the breast size.




			You also have those that like the kink of having breast sex/intercourse. Yes if would be harder for the female to orgasm but not impossible. ie a higher DC.
		
Click to expand...



This would already be covered by the kinks mechanics suggested by VVrayven.

Don't forget that NO mechanics suggested here is intended on what comes a few minutes before the clothes are dropped. We only treat what happens during intercourse. No seduction, love, etc mechanics.*


----------



## SinbadBleu

OK thank your for the clarification on the specifics of this topic.

Has the female clitorus size been taken into effect? 

Yes it is specific to the act of sex and orgasm.


----------



## Bastoche

No, but I guess it could. Let's not get too anal (pun intended ) about the details though.


----------



## Psyckosama

Well, one thing I could see mattering on the female side is vaginal tightness... lets be honest, while she might have alot more ranks in sex based skills, I seriously doubt the old dock-side whore (who's probelly as loose as an wet paper bag) is a better lay then the cherry princess/farmers daughter...


----------



## SinbadBleu

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *Well, one thing I could see mattering on the female side is vaginal tightness... lets be honest, while she might have alot more ranks in sex based skills, I seriously doubt the old dock-side whore (who's probelly as loose as an wet paper bag) is a better lay then the cherry princess/farmers daughter... *




Well that cherry princess have what one rank of sex based skills maybe, the farmers daughter be generous three ranks, and the dock side whore would have six ranks one being the ability to shrink that wet paper bag into a finger cote. I would much prefer the dock side whore, more experience, less likely to form a permanent attachement. 

I would hope that in a fantasy role playing world, our present day holdovers from bygone days would not exist, like have to marry a virgin.


----------



## Sorn

Yes, let's not get too detail oriented here. Otherwise it won't be D&D, it'll be Rolemaster 2nd Edition, where it could take forever to fill out all your physical stats, from shoe size to hat size.


----------



## Asher

Question: can breast size and the like be handled as fetishs/frets, or must a fetish/fret be a particular action or technique?  It seems reasonable that if a DM and/or player really _really_ wanted to work breast size as a factor into the mechanics, that would be one low-impact way to do it.


----------



## Sorn

Sure, Breasts could easily be added to the fetish/fret list. I still don't think we need a table for breast sizes. A character with special breast ideals will most likely ask about them when the DM introduces the partner anyway.


----------



## VVrayven

::taps foot waiting for DbS:: 

Anyways:



> Sure, Breasts could easily be added to the fetish/fret list. I still don't think we need a table for breast sizes. A character with special breast ideals will most likely ask about them when the DM introduces the partner anyway.




I agree completely.

I am against a table that includes anything for breast size, body measurements, phallus size, vagina size, and the like. I think it is limiting, way too detailed for the scope of this guide and the simple size reference chart we will have with size classes and (half-steps) is already almost too detailed. (remember KISS)



> Well, one thing I could see mattering on the female side is vaginal tightness... lets be honest, while she might have alot more ranks in sex based skills, I seriously doubt the old dock-side whore (who's probelly as loose as an wet paper bag) is a better lay then the cherry princess/farmers daughter...




::long sigh:: Okay, this would not only introduce a whole new set of controversial rules (which I'm okay with, seeing as I think we still need to hammer out NC...) I'm with SinbadBleu on this one and think that this approach is not a good idea. And speaking as a girl on the whole tightness thing... Yes some of it does go away with time, but it doesn't make a whole lot of difference, at least not in any serious degree. And if you don't think an experienced girl can be a better "lay" than a virgin who doesn't know anything, I pray for your sexual satisfaction. 

No hard feelings intended, I just dislike the opinion that experienced men are better in bed, but that experienced "loose" women are not just because they have been around.

It's been too quiet around here. We need some more stuff flying! <gets to work>. That's it for now. <hugs to all>


----------



## Sorn

Hey VVrayven  



> I am against a table that includes anything for breast size, body measurements, phallus size, vagina size, and the like. I think it is limiting, way too detailed for the scope of this guide and the simple size reference chart we will have with size classes and (half-steps) is already almost too detailed. (remember KISS)




Ditto on the other tables. I am not a big fan of the PHB size/weight tables as it is. The rough guidelines in the race description works just fine, and with the advent of Savage Species, coming up with tables for every potential race is nuts. 



> No hard feelings intended, I just dislike the opinion that experienced men are better in bed, but that experienced "loose" women are not just because they have been around.




Same here. Being "loose" has no impact on sexual enjoyment. If I was still single and I had my choice between a virgin or an experienced woman who had 15 kids, I'd rather have sex with the experienced woman. Not only will she know a few tricks (Kegel excercises anyone?), she will also know how to make sure that she gets her pleasure out of it too (and for me, that's half the fun). 



> We need some more stuff flying!




*tosses a snowball from Monday's snowstorm* Oh, you meant stuff for the guide... 

Thanks for the hug... needed that after my day at work here... *hug back*


----------



## Psyckosama

I was being sarcastic really... it was more of a generalised poke and a sarcastic questioning... "If we don't want to make is complex, then why bother with dick size?" ^_^


----------



## Gez

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *I was being sarcastic really... it was more of a generalised poke and a sarcastic questioning... "If we don't want to make is complex, then why bother with dick size?" ^_^ *




Because there are some dude for whom it is really important... Poor fools.   

 A girl gamer I know told me about a group of people who played Warhammer FRPG. For one reason or another, forgot the plot twist, their characters all got naked, and, of course, one said he took opportunity to compare size. So, the GM told them to roll some 4d6 to get the size in centimeters. Well, one got a ridiculously low roll (5 or 6, don't remember), and actually _burned one fate point to reroll_. He got the same result. 

Another proof of some people's obsession is the amount of spam circulating on the net. I'm lucky when I can have a whole week without mails claiming they could give me three more inches.  As if it wasn't already cumbersome enough. Given that the ratio of spam proposing to enlarge my breasts (this don't interest me neither) is much smaller, I deduce women are less obsessed by size.


----------



## Psyckosama

> *
> 
> Because there are some dude for whom it is really important... Poor fools.   *




It's the magic, not the wand 



> * A girl gamer I know told me about a group of people who played Warhammer FRPG. For one reason or another, forgot the plot twist, their characters all got naked, and, of course, one said he took opportunity to compare size. So, the GM told them to roll some 4d6 to get the size in centimeters. Well, one got a ridiculously low roll (5 or 6, don't remember), and actually burned one fate point to reroll. He got the same result. *




I've seen stranger...



> *I deduce women are less obsessed by size. *




Explain Implants then. women just have a more ready (but expensive) answer for their *ahem* problems 

Anyways, to add something constructive commentary,  we need rules for being pregnant and child birth. It seems that noone has any problems with the pregency mechanics I posted... that or they're all just so much more interested in the sex rules...


----------



## VVrayven

> I was being sarcastic really...




Gotcha 



> Explain Implants then. women just have a more ready (but expensive) answer for their *ahem* problems




Not all of us.  Personally I don't see the point. 



> Anyways, to add something constructive commentary, we need rules for being pregnant and child birth. It seems that noone has any problems with the pregency mechanics I posted... that or they're all just so much more interested in the sex rules...




On the contrary, I think your rules are great. They need to be tweaked out of course, I just haven't had the time to really get involved with them and saw a number of other people looking seriously at the results. But, now that I see that it is really on the table, I'll take a longer look.


----------



## Psyckosama

> * Not all of us.  Personally I don't see the point. *




Nor do I... I can not for the life of me find two big bags of silicone or salt water attractive... 



> * On the contrary, I think your rules are great. They need to be tweaked out of course, I just haven't had the time to really get involved with them and saw a number of other people looking seriously at the results. But, now that I see that it is really on the table, I'll take a longer look. *




Good, the more commentary I get the better. Helps me smooth out the rough spots. 

Right now the "iffy" part is the twins (ect) rules I made up... IMHO those can lead to a lot of problems for those who use fertility magics...

hey, maybe we should make some more spells and curses that affect conception and the ect...


----------



## Gez

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *Right now the "iffy" part is the twins (etc) rules I made up... IMHO those can lead to a lot of problems for those who use fertility magics...
> 
> hey, maybe we should make some more spells and curses that affect conception and the etc... *




What about those who would use fertility magic to get twins -- or more ?

About spells and curses, here's some open content from Mongoose's _Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy -- Beyond the Grave_ book.

*Strike Barren*
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S, M
Castingt Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Target: One living creature
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

Often seen as merely a petty curse by all spellcasters but the most vile of witches, its effects can be devastating for the subject. By guinding small amount of negative energy to specific part of the victim's body, a skilled and manipulative exercise in itself, you may cause them to become infertile, utterly incapable of producing offspring for the rest of their lives.

The use of _remove curse_ will negates the effects of this spell. This spell has no effect on outsiders or on creatures who do not reproduce anyway.

_Material Component:_ The skull of an infant.

15. COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open game content from Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy -- Beyond the Grave copyright 2001 Mongoose Publishing.


----------



## Psyckosama

> *
> 
> What about those who would use fertility magic to get twins -- or more ?*




Make a spell that directly affects the threat range for having twins. Normal magic increases the chances, so directly going for twins (or more) shouldn't be that hard... 



> *
> About spells and curses, here's some open content from Mongoose's Encyclopedia Arcane: Necromancy -- Beyond the Grave book.
> *




Nice.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *Breast size is much more subjective IMO than organ size (be it phallus size or orifices size) orifices and phallus was considered and not breast size. I wouldn't want to go into that kind of details and I would implicitly out that in charisma and/or comeliness (in the was case, in 3E it's arbitrary. You could in principle play an ugly high charisma character or a beautiful uncharismatic character). Since the mechanics is based on charisma and not comeliness; since breats size is a comeliness thing, it shouldn't affect the rolls IMO. *




I will not get into the rhetoric of roll versus role.


----------



## SinbadBleu

*Re: Re: Breast Size 1A*



			
				Bastoche said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Even this is too specific IMO.
> 
> 
> 
> We do not consider seduction rolls. This is left to the DM on purpose. The mechanic suggested here only treats sexual acts. What comes before and after is left to each group of players. The consensus here, if I'm not mistaken is that seduction, love, etc should be treated throughout roleplay and not rollplay.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said above, this is treated because it has a direct influence on the sex act. And not the breast size.
> 
> 
> 
> This would already be covered by the kinks mechanics suggested by VVrayven.
> 
> Don't forget that NO mechanics suggested here is intended on what comes a few minutes before the clothes are dropped. We only treat what happens during intercourse. No seduction, love, etc mechanics. *




Hmmm is have seen the clothing having an effect on seduction!.

By the way I like the detail on clothing and the removal of same.

No every DM or player has the first or second hand experience of those that wish to "charm" them out of their funds. 

Any character who has money or the appearance of money will attract the charming ones. Like was said in the PI "You Have Peso nality" The monied character will have to worry about his or her charisma either. 

I have been to JoLo's at the end of Magsaysay Blvd in Olongopo, and seen many a serviceman get charmed out his money dispite that he did not go there to get charmed. 

I have been in many a party and had players not want to get charmed despite the surroundings and would not role play the situation partially due to the lack of experience.

IMHO the seduction mechanic need to be included.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *I was being sarcastic really... it was more of a generalised poke and a sarcastic questioning... "If we don't want to make is complex, then why bother with dick size?" ^_^ *




Well your sarcasm is still correct and to the point.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Make a spell that directly affects the threat range for having twins. Normal magic increases the chances, so directly going for twins (or more) shouldn't be that hard...
> 
> Nice. *




Injecting some RW details. 

Faternal Twins are due the female releasing two or more eggs, getting them fertilzed.

Identical Twin are due the fertilized egg(s) dividing an additional time in the very early stages. In later stage one gets conjoined twins.

Faternal twins are specifically caused/created by the female.

Idenitical twins are speciifically caused/created by the male's gentics.

How do I know this well I one time asked this type of question of Chief Of Surgery while helping? in Conjoined Twin separation. What I doing there, I was there to keeping the medical equipment functioning and I was walking camera boom. I am not vertially challenged.

I have three nieces that have 3 fraternal twins, 2 set identical twins, and one set of tripplets.

Yes I know for some of you this is too much detail.

I believe that the staminal of the male such be reflected in the chances of conception. It would so the number, motility etc of the spem involved.

One could also have fertilty magic that requires both participants, kinda like the Great Rite.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Yes, let's not get too detail oriented here. Otherwise it won't be D&D, it'll be Rolemaster 2nd Edition, where it could take forever to fill out all your physical stats, from shoe size to hat size. *




No it can't be D&D that is why the original version had its name changed due to T$R requiring it. 

Rolemaster does not have as much as Chivarly and Sorcery or Space Opera. AHhh got to love the Ursiods for the planet of Ankaa IV.


----------



## Psyckosama

> *
> 
> Well your sarcasm is still correct and to the point.
> *




Danke.



> *Injecting some RW details.
> 
> Faternal Twins are due the female releasing two or more eggs, getting them fertilzed.
> 
> Identical Twin are due the fertilized egg(s) dividing an additional time in the very early stages. In later stage one gets conjoined twins.
> 
> Faternal twins are specifically caused/created by the female.
> 
> Idenitical twins are speciifically caused/created by the male's gentics.
> 
> How do I know this well I one time asked this type of question of Chief Of Surgery while helping? in Conjoined Twin separation. What I doing there, I was there to keeping the medical equipment functioning and I was walking camera boom. I am not vertially challenged.
> 
> I have three nieces that have 3 fraternal twins, 2 set identical twins, and one set of tripplets.
> 
> Yes I know for some of you this is too much detail.*




Yes. Let the DM choose, it's easier that way.



> *I believe that the staminal of the male such be reflected in the chances of conception. It would so the number, motility etc of the spem involved.*




Don't work with the conception rules I drew up. Maybe with a case by case set, but the monthy test is too generic.



> *One could also have fertilty magic that requires both participants, kinda like the Great Rite. *




Maybe with a higher level "You WILL get pregnant. Period" spell, but I say keep the lesser ones simple.


----------



## Bastoche

*Re: Re: Re: Breast Size 1A*



			
				SinbadBleu said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmmm is have seen the clothing having an effect on seduction!.
> 
> By the way I like the detail on clothing and the removal of same.
> 
> No every DM or player has the first or second hand experience of those that wish to "charm" them out of their funds.
> 
> Any character who has money or the appearance of money will attract the charming ones. Like was said in the PI "You Have Peso nality" The monied character will have to worry about his or her charisma either.
> 
> I have been to JoLo's at the end of Magsaysay Blvd in Olongopo, and seen many a serviceman get charmed out his money dispite that he did not go there to get charmed.
> 
> I have been in many a party and had players not want to get charmed despite the surroundings and would not role play the situation partially due to the lack of experience.
> 
> IMHO the seduction mechanic need to be included. *




The clothing have an effect on the action of having sex as discussed here. Not on seduction. We have already discussed about seduction rules and we voted against it for many good reason. The GUCK will not include rules for love only for love making.


----------



## Psyckosama

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Breast Size 1A*



			
				Bastoche said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The clothing have an effect on the action of having sex as discussed here. Not on seduction. We have already discussed about seduction rules and we voted against it for many good reason. The GUCK will not include rules for love only for love making. *




IE: It'll only be useful to a small number of perverts who wish to detail when their characters  in the game. Pardon me, but I can't see many people that would be very useful too.

Only reason I'm really intrested is the potential for rules involving reproduction, which adds a spice of mature realism to the game.


----------



## SinbadBleu

asra said:
			
		

> *
> 
> How about:
> vvvvvvvvvv
> SEDUCTIVE - Those clothes are ment to enhance sex appeal,
> providing a +1 equipment synergy bonus for seduction rules. A mastercraft version will enhance this bonus further to +2. Note that in certain cases, such clothing might cause a penelty in social reactions (such as in a church).
> 
> FASHIONABLE - Those clothes are the latest fashion trend and will provide +1 equipment synergy bonus to social reactions in the appropriate circumstances. *




Bastone:See the above quote both do not directly involve the sex act.


----------



## SinbadBleu

*Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Breast Size 1A*



			
				Psyckosama said:
			
		

> *
> 
> IE: It'll only be useful to a small number of perverts who wish to detail when their characters  in the game. Pardon me, but I can't see many people that would be very useful too.
> 
> Only reason I'm really intrested is the potential for rules involving reproduction, which adds a spice of mature realism to the game. *




Hmmm by the mainsteam D20 players we are already perverts for even thinking of gathering together such ideas and rules. 

We each have our own POV(Point of View) because of that each of has different needs on the rules being gathered together.

As for a small number of perverts it would amaze you as to how many copies of the Rules of Carnal Knowledge in all versions that have been downloaded, since the days of TSR rule. 

My players are mature persons how have gone beyond the "normal" rules and desire the unusual things for thier characters to be involved in. 

I have playing role playing games since the Primodial Days. Playing the same olde class is boring. 

In a Shadowrun game I had a Shamen who was a shapeshifting specialist, primary use was to getting into places, ie cockroaches/rats usually do not set of off alarms. His other uses involved shapechanging himself and his partners into various forms during the sex act. 

I feel that limiting the GUCK to our POV will limit the use to those who only share the majority POV here.

By the way where/when was the vote?


----------



## Death By Surfeit

*clambers out of the void*

Sorry for the unexplained and rather lengthly absence, everyone. It’s been a while since I’ve been able to access the forum, and it’s taken me some time to get up to speed – glad so see such rip-roaring impetus, everyone!

Righto, working from where I left off onward, I’ll see what I can do… *casts eyes back* first off, may I compliment VVrayven on her marvellous clothing mechanics. The system is great, but as a few have pointed out a handful of errors have arisen. I’ll do my best to address them.

* Regarding Pysckosama’s comments: judging by their weight I assume the PHB was running along the assumption that royal/noble garments WOULD be in 15/16th century style. Whilst it may seem a little unnecessary, it might be an idea to provide a full clothing list as a broader contribution of the guide.

* Sorn’s comments on fashionability, and related topics: I would disagree with giving fixed modifiers for clothing based on its quality/fashionability/backwardness, as such a thing really depends on the situation. A GM may impose a penalty for wearing a commoner’s clothing to a trendy social club, but wearing cutting-edge fashion whilst visiting isolated rural towns isn’t going to do you any favours, either.

Furthermore, multipliers for clothing are very much non-3e. If we should come up with this clothing list, I would recommend simply stating after each whether it is complex or scant as part of the descriptive text. The advantages/disadvantages of each are fairly neutral (scant clothing is seldom appreciated outside of the appropriate circles).

* Regarding spell lists: Looking at possible spell concepts, the ones that wave my wand are the more all-purpose ones: a spell that surrounds you with pheremones, causes orgasms in a touch or castrates a particularly loathed target has a sensual nature and application, but is also useful in the wider world. Hence, all spells are likely to be useful.

Plomping sensual spells into a separate school is not a good idea: the majority of them mesh with conventional types, whatever EA: Nymphology has to say about it. I’d echo the DbS’s [Arousal] and [Libido-Affecting] descriptors and leave it at that. I would opt for a handful of sensual-type classes (maybe converted, DbS style-ee) with full access to the lists, with a few spells available to conventional spellcasters. This avoids the core classes getting too much for nothing, and provided we don’t make the sensual-type classes too specialised we can avoid them being useless beyond a very narrow scope.

* Psyckosama’s rules on pregnancy: I have reservations as to having a monthly system for working things out, and a few things don’t quite add up (eg common human in their Prime has over a one in six chance of getting pregnant after having sex once in a month. In real-life statistics, you’re looking at a third of this. Furthermore, it gives flat bonuses for ‘magic’, whereas 3e recommends no ‘passive bonuses’ – fertility magic should be as listed in the spell description. However, I really, really like the recent suggestion on critical ranges for multiple children – very much in flavour.

I would leave no more than my hesitations on the post, but thought I’d jot a few of my own suggestions on the topic. I have decided not to include menstrual cycles and such as this is both excessive (who would want to keep track?) and futile (what with variation and all that, you cannot cover everything). As usual, rules text is rough-edged and hazy. Clarification is on hand, improvement happily accepted.

CONCEPTION

When a male undergoes Climax as a part of vaginal intercourse, he should make a Constitution check against a DC determined by his race (natural 20 always succeeds):

Low fertility: 20
Medium fertility: 19
High fertility: 18

Character is Middle-Aged: +1
Character is Old: +2
Character is Venerable: +3

This indicates the possibility that conception has taken place. The female should make a similar check dependant on her own race’s fertility (natural 20 always succeeds, unless partners are Unrelatable):

Low fertility: 20
Medium fertility: 19
High fertility: 18

Character is Middle-Aged: +1
Character is Old or Venerable: impossible

Partners are same race: +0
Partners are Related: +1
Partners are Relatable: +2
Partners are Unrelatable: automatic failure
(these refer to as yet unestablished interbreeding rules. I am using the DbS version as a working model)

If both of these rolls have succeeded, conception has taken place.

PREGNANCY

Pregnancy is broken down into nine stages. Amongst the common humanoids, each of these stages represents a month of pregnancy. At the beginning of each stage, the mother must test once each against Weakness, Awkwardness and Exhaustion. Failure represents the loss of a point of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, respectively – this loss cannot be removed until after the pregnancy, when it recovers at the usual rate. The DC for these checks, and for spotting that the childbearer is pregnant, are given in the table below:

Stage/Check DC/Spot DC
1/10/75
2/12/50
3/14/35
4/16/25
5/18/20
6/20/15
7/22/10
8/24/5
9/26/0

Should the mother roll a natural 1 on her Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks during the first stage, the embryo will not implant and pregnancy will be negated. Thereafter, it will only be when two Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks have rolled 1’s in the same stage that the child will die.

There are some very rough rules to mull over. Get back to me with your thoughts and feelings – this is merely the product of an idly spent hour.

Oh, and regarding SinBadBleu’s last comment, I feel it is a hopeless, daunting and ungratifying task to try to cater to everyone’s tastes – many would disagree with the existence of the guide altogether.

Cheers,

DbS

PS. ‘Wotcher’ is a somewhat antiquated English greeting. It is very hard to translate.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> **clambers out of the void*
> <snip>
> PREGNANCY
> 
> Pregnancy is broken down into nine stages. Amongst the common humanoids, each of these stages represents a month of pregnancy. At the beginning of each stage, the mother must test once each against Weakness, Awkwardness and Exhaustion. Failure represents the loss of a point of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, respectively ? this loss cannot be removed until after the pregnancy, when it recovers at the usual rate. The DC for these checks, and for spotting that the childbearer is pregnant, are given in the table below:
> 
> Stage/Check DC/Spot DC
> 1/10/75
> 2/12/50
> 3/14/35
> 4/16/25
> 5/18/20
> 6/20/15
> 7/22/10
> 8/24/5
> 9/26/0
> 
> Should the mother roll a natural 1 on her Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks during the first stage, the embryo will not implant and pregnancy will be negated. Thereafter, it will only be when two Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks have rolled 1?s in the same stage that the child will die.
> 
> There are some very rough rules to mull over. Get back to me with your thoughts and feelings ? this is merely the product of an idly spent hour.
> 
> Oh, and regarding SinBadBleu?s last comment, I feel it is a hopeless, daunting and ungratifying task to try to cater to everyone?s tastes ? many would disagree with the existence of the guide altogether.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> DbS
> 
> PS. ?Wotcher? is a somewhat antiquated English greeting. It is very hard to translate. *




Please refresh my memory on the effects of multiple babies being carried on the montly checks?

I merely want as many details as possible that way I can discard the ones that do not work for my POV, like any experienced DM.

I understand the many issues of the GUCK and going into the gathering together of same.

DBS where is the most recent version of the GUCK, I have only found version 0.5 doc on your web page.


----------



## Bastoche

SinbadBleu said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Bastone:See the above quote both do not directly involve the sex act. *




I don't think I missed much on this thread and I can assure you that VVrayven, DbS, Gez, etc the most involved persons on this GUCK project do not intend to detail anything that comes before sex. I'll try to find the posts...

*searching the thread*

Ah!

quote from Sorn:

"As far as dating/picking someone up goes, stick with opposed Bluff/Sense Motive rolls. A few new modifiers might not be a bad idea... let's keep that in mind when it comes time to go over the rest of the skills."

quote from DbS:

"With regards the recommendation for seduction, courtship and love, the GUCK may address some of the issues: a mechanic dedicated purely to seduction (such as that presented in Ch3 of the DbS conversion) would probably be featured, but open to modifiers as the Gamesmaster sees fit (roleplay will definately be required). Courtship, love and such are best left purely in the grounds of roleplaying, as they are tied in with the nature of the character and are far more than a one-off event. Players who feel too uncomfortable doing so should probably avoid such matters."

Then VVrayven said she agreed with this and we pretty much dropped the issue.

GUCK is intended to give a sidebar-like mechanic for quick resolving sex rules (named "soft focus") and the main set of rules (named "hard-focus") gives a detailed enough 3E-like set of rules for sexual intercourse encounter. Seduction may be included as a sidebar (personnaly I think it's a lost of time) and love, etc will not be covered. It's up to each group of player to decide about this. / personnaly think there should _not_ be a mechanic for this. It should be entirely roleplay resolved. If some rolls are needed, I think charisma checks, bluff and/or diplomacy checks covers anything there could ever need to be covered on this matter. Contrary to sex intercourse.


----------



## Sorn

Welcome back DbS. Was starting to worry about you.

Anyway, let's get to your stuff:

Fashion: I was thinking more of loose suggestions for modifiers, not a concrete list that would cover all eventualities. More of a "Wearing last year's courtier's outfit at the Queen's Ball will probably net you a -2 to -4 penalty." Given that, we should be fine with a few short sentences.

Spells: I am still convinced that if we limit a majority of our spells to sensual PrC's, we will loose quite a bit of our audience. Going with descriptors ([Sensual], [Arousal], etc.) is the way to go in my eyes. Instead of giving our PrC's better access to those spells, they should get bonuses to cast them (i.e. increased DC or increased effects). If we really want to limit spells, the only way that would feel 3e to me would be to make them domain spells, but not general cleric spells. 

Btw, I just took another quick look at EA: Nymphology, but everything in there I could find were spells that were part of the core-class spell-lists. Maybe I am reading you wrong, but where in there does it say that sex related spells should be part of a different school or should have limited access?

Pregnancy:This looks great. 

The 9 stages system is fine, but we should change the gestation period a little bit. Longer-lived and larger races would probably have a longer gestation periods than smaller/short-lived races. When we say that "most common humanoids" have a 9 month gestation, we are sending the wrong message, considering that out of the PHB races, only humans and half-elves will have anything close to that. Elves have been noted to have an 18 month gestation in "Moon Elves" by Natural20Press. Halflings and Gnomes, being smaller should be around 5-7 months. Dwarves with their birth-friendly hips and longer lifespan should probably fall somewhere between humans and elves. High-fertility races like orcs and goblins will have shorter gestation periods as well. 

Now for the exhaustion checks. I don't think this is such a good idea, especially when applied to commoners (which seems to be one of our big check and balance system). Imagine Lucy the peasant, with a Str, Con and Dex of 10. She rolled lousy for her checks, and her saves are VERY low. At the end of the pregnancy, she has effective stats of 1. The Con drain affecting her hit points alone might kill her. God beware if she has a stat at 9, which means she could simply die from exhaustion (not labor mind you, just having the belly). Also, if we use any sort of Con modifiers for labor and delivery, we will assure that most of the mothers will simply die during childbirth. Granted, a pregnancy will change your life around, but it shouldn't be lethal just by itself. 

As an alternate system, how about this: If you fail your check, you receive an armor check penalty equal to the stage you are in? A -9 in the late stages to the same skills affected by ACP sounds about right to me. Of course it would stack with any existing ACP the character might have, plus your armor might not fit anymore.

To simplify the things, starting at Stage 3, the check DC is 10+Stage.  Early on, I don't think there would be much of a hindrance, so we could skip the first two stages.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think I missed much on this thread and I can assure you that VVrayven, DbS, Gez, etc the most involved persons on this GUCK project do not intend to detail anything that comes before sex. I'll try to find the posts...
> 
> *searching the thread*
> 
> Ah!
> 
> quote from Sorn:
> 
> "As far as dating/picking someone up goes, stick with opposed Bluff/Sense Motive rolls. A few new modifiers might not be a bad idea... let's keep that in mind when it comes time to go over the rest of the skills."
> 
> quote from DbS:
> 
> "With regards the recommendation for seduction, courtship and love, the GUCK may address some of the issues: a mechanic dedicated purely to seduction (such as that presented in Ch3 of the DbS conversion) would probably be featured, but open to modifiers as the Gamesmaster sees fit (roleplay will definately be required). Courtship, love and such are best left purely in the grounds of roleplaying, as they are tied in with the nature of the character and are far more than a one-off event. Players who feel too uncomfortable doing so should probably avoid such matters."
> 
> Then VVrayven said she agreed with this and we pretty much dropped the issue.
> 
> GUCK is intended to give a sidebar-like mechanic for quick resolving sex rules (named "soft focus") and the main set of rules (named "hard-focus") gives a detailed enough 3E-like set of rules for sexual intercourse encounter. Seduction may be included as a sidebar (personnaly I think it's a lost of time) and love, etc will not be covered. It's up to each group of player to decide about this. / personnaly think there should not be a mechanic for this. It should be entirely roleplay resolved. If some rolls are needed, I think charisma checks, bluff and/or diplomacy checks covers anything there could ever need to be covered on this matter. Contrary to sex intercourse. *




Hmmm it appears to me that the overstatement that a vote was held on this was to say the least overstated. 

I have read the above threads no voting was held. At best it could be described a off the cuff consenus. 

On RolePlay versus RollPlay we disagree, each from different POV. This not the most correct forum for the rhetoric on Role versus Roll. 

I for one don't think of it as loss of time. I would greatly like to discuss the seduction and its affects on CUCK. 

After the most powerfull and largest sexual organ is the brain!!!

Seduction

Ok bluff for those  quickie ie another notch in gun so to speak encounters.

Diplomacy for the more serious seduction attempts for a more permanent nature.


----------



## Bastoche

Well if you want to create the GSK (Guide of Seduction Knowledge), be my guest. I suggest you start another thread for this since here we are rather discussing mechanics about sex intercourse. And it could be very confusing for everybody. The main goal here is to get a 3E-like in feel, realistic and complete "sex" guide. If the core of the GUCK creators feels like they should be working onseduction mechanics and that they want to do it now then... 

We disagree about roll vs role and I'm pretty sure the most involved folks on GUCK agrees with me... 

In anyway, the current thread is about basic sex mechanics. Seduction maybe will be included in a side bar so it's not a top priority.

I personnaly think that seduction is more than already fully covered by the standard skill selection from the PHB that is sense motive, bluff, diplomacy and charisma checks. It involves everything there needs to be. The only thing that could be discussed is how to use these skills for the specific seduction role. I think it was discussed in a splat book (sword'n'fist ?) Furthermore, there should never be as much details on seduction than on hard-focus intercourse rules. So seduction rolls should be as simple or simpler than soft focus rules. That isn't much IMO.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *Well if you want to create the GSK (Guide of Seduction Knowledge), be my guest. I suggest you start another thread for this since here we are rather discussing mechanics about sex intercourse. And it could be very confusing for everybody. The main goal here is to get a 3E-like in feel, realistic and complete "sex" guide. If the core of the GUCK creators feels like they should be working onseduction mechanics and that they want to do it now then...
> 
> We disagree about roll vs role and I'm pretty sure the most involved folks on GUCK agrees with me...
> 
> In anyway, the current thread is about basic sex mechanics. Seduction maybe will be included in a side bar so it's not a top priority.
> 
> I personnaly think that seduction is more than already fully covered by the standard skill selection from the PHB that is sense motive, bluff, diplomacy and charisma checks. It involves everything there needs to be. The only thing that could be discussed is how to use these skills for the specific seduction role. I think it was discussed in a splat book (sword'n'fist ?) Furthermore, there should never be as much details on seduction than on hard-focus intercourse rules. So seduction rolls should be as simple or simpler than soft focus rules. That isn't much IMO. *




Well actually a more correct topic would be "What Was Banned From the GUCK Forum" 

We also disagree on seductioh also. Not surprizing though. 

You might also check out the tables for getting in and out of clothing has nothing directly to do with sex mechanics ie intercourse. Yes it has an effecton the largest sexual organ though it done properly. 

Since you tote it so please list the core persons.....and what they have contributed......beyond the original works.

Your statements are at odds with each other...."feel, realistic and complete "sex" guide" Then you want everything left out for roleplaying. Make up your mind please, it confusing the non core ones.  

This topic on this forum has the second highest views and the top three posts over the last few months. Now you should ask yourself what is everyone coming back here for views???? They are not all of the core beings, it is the non core beings surfing for new ideas etc that they can "borrow" for use in their games. Let us give them ideas they can borrow without stamping it with our POV's, or restricting by same. 

Satire Mode Engaged
Yes the core group entirely in sync with you..... 
Satire Mode Disengaged


----------



## kolvar

Just have a few seconds to spare and want to write, that this rather annoys me, that, even with satire mode and everything, people are arguing, what should be in or not. 
So far, this is the development thread for the basic rules and we did the whole thing twice upside down (and that is the reason, why we do it a third time). 
The suggestion, to do another thread, is ok, but will probably lead to nothing, as far as the past has shown.
My suggestion: collect everything, that does not belong to the topic at hand in a file, put it on the site and when we come to it, we have everything at hand. On a case by case basis, a topic can be discussed immediatly.
(but probalby, this is all meaningless and I am making something out of nothing, because I can barely look through my eyes and have rather annoying cold. In this case, just forget that I posted).


----------



## Psyckosama

> *Hmmm by the mainsteam D20 players we are already perverts for even thinking of gathering together such ideas and rules.
> 
> We each have our own POV(Point of View) because of that each of has different needs on the rules being gathered together.
> 
> As for a small number of perverts it would amaze you as to how many copies of the Rules of Carnal Knowledge in all versions that have been downloaded, since the days of TSR rule. *




That because the old rules set was a damn funny read, and fun to snicker at! 

My POV on what the GUCK should become is more then just a set of rules for having sex. There are some major areas that are skimed over in most books, seduction, courtship, and reproduction. I feel it is 120% within the flavor of the GUCK to handle these issues to some degree.



> ** Psyckosama’s rules on pregnancy: I have reservations as to having a monthly system for working things out, and a few things don’t quite add up (eg common human in their Prime has over a one in six chance of getting pregnant after having sex once in a month. In real-life statistics, you’re looking at a third of this. Furthermore, it gives flat bonuses for ‘magic’, whereas 3e recommends no ‘passive bonuses’ – fertility magic should be as listed in the spell description. However, I really, really like the recent suggestion on critical ranges for multiple children – very much in flavour.
> *




The reason I posted my system is because it is simple.

The problems you noted, they can be fixed. The current modifiers are semi-temporary. It needs polish. For example the "fertility magic" entry I gave is really just a momentary place holder. The discriptors I gave could easly be removed and incorporated into a standard spell.

Personally I just don't like the idea of rolling everytime they have sex. It slows down the *ahem* action and doesn't account for the fact that it can logically be guessed that players that do it useing the GUCK rules (like a married couple) would also do it "off screen" like when they are inbetween addventures, when the DM glazes over the long voyage to where ever, or other times.

Before anyone mentions that you should not consider the PCs sexuially active unless it's RPed out, I just want to mention that atleast I feel that the periods of time that are covered by the adventures are exceptional moments in the characters life, not the norm.  I'll give an example of my opinion.

Bill the Fighter might spend lots of time trudging through god-forsaken pits for fame, forture, and to impressed his lover, Linda the Mage, but not all that time. They probelly spend more time traveling to the dungeon or relaxing in their keep/country villa/ townhouse/ect then they actually do during the crawl. And while they may enjoy the ocasional bout of kinky dungeon luvin' chances are most of their intimate activity will be during those long road trips or at home.

I know the above is a simplification but I think you can get the basic idea.



> *PREGNANCY
> 
> Pregnancy is broken down into nine stages. Amongst the common humanoids, each of these stages represents a month of pregnancy. At the beginning of each stage, the mother must test once each against Weakness, Awkwardness and Exhaustion. Failure represents the loss of a point of Strength, Dexterity or Constitution, respectively – this loss cannot be removed until after the pregnancy, when it recovers at the usual rate. The DC for these checks, and for spotting that the childbearer is pregnant, are given in the table below:
> 
> Stage/Check DC/Spot DC
> 1/10/75
> 2/12/50
> 3/14/35
> 4/16/25
> 5/18/20
> 6/20/15
> 7/22/10
> 8/24/5
> 9/26/0
> 
> Should the mother roll a natural 1 on her Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks during the first stage, the embryo will not implant and pregnancy will be negated. Thereafter, it will only be when two Weakness, Awkwardness or Exhaustion checks have rolled 1’s in the same stage that the child will die.
> 
> There are some very rough rules to mull over. Get back to me with your thoughts and feelings – this is merely the product of an idly spent hour.
> 
> Oh, and regarding SinBadBleu’s last comment, I feel it is a hopeless, daunting and ungratifying task to try to cater to everyone’s tastes – many would disagree with the existence of the guide altogether.
> *




Hmmm... It has potential but needs work. I agree with Sorn on most of his points and would like to add the idea that which stat is reduced is random and only one is reduced per cycle. Pregnant woman should also be encumbered as the weight of the baby should count toward their carry weight.

his armor check penelty on the otherhand is too great IMHO. I think it should be repersented by the decrease in dex, a penalty to worn (nonmagical) armor, and maybe a modifier that it is easier to critical against a pregnant woman.


----------



## Gez

Since I've been dubbed by Bastoche "one of the most involved persons on this GUCK project", I feel compelled to sneak out of hiding for something more constructive that giving a link to rapist treants.

While the guide won't adress how to mechanically fall in love (romantism deserve to be romantic, after all, and if dice rolling is fun, it's not romantic), we could adress some effects of love.

Like, for example, a +2 circumstance bonus to innuendo and sense motive  (lovers only need their eyes to talk), and even to bluff and intimidate (you pay more attention) the loving one. A +2 moral bonus when you are helped by your loved one (who use the aid another action), and likewise a +2 moral bonus to the aid another roll.

Also, I thought of that faery-talesque feat. Don't have a good name for it now.

*Love stronger than all [General]*
Like the Charming Prince curing Snowwhite of the apple's poison with a kiss, or that other Charming Prince awaking the Sleeping Beauty with another curse-breaking curse, or even like Isis resurrecting her divine husband with an even more potent "kiss" (well, that involved her lips and tongue so it's a sort of kiss anyway), your love is so strong that it can overcame curse, poison, disease and even death.
*Prerequisite:* Loving one person deeply and truly, Charisma 15+.
*Benefit:* Once a month, you are able to use _cure poison_, _remove curse_, _remove disease_, or _resurrection_ as a spell-like ability while kissing (or another erotic activity) the loved person. You pay the experience point cost associated with the spell, if any. Also, when resurrecting a loved one through this feat, you may choose to lose a level yourself to avoid that loss to the loved one.


----------



## Bastoche

This thread has a long history. I ask everybody to go at the beginning of this thread and read it over again. 

The main aim of the GUCK is to support an erotic fantasy game style. A game setting where sex encounters comes first and other types of encounters are second.

For all those of you only interested in quick sex rules and pregnancy, there will be the "soft-focus" set of rules especially for that purpose.

The rules GUCK is about is rules for sex encounters as a main feature of a campaign. The so-called "hard-focus" rules. All the prior discussion gravitated around that very purpose keeping in mind that most people will rather be interested in soft-focus.

SinbadBleu, I don't know what the hell you're trying to prove here but please read this whole thread over and you'll understand. There's no point in going through juvenile arguing over seduction and love etc. We're here to give rules suggestion to further improve the GUCK rule set. To further improve this set of rules, it is imperative that everybody understands what we are trying to acheive here and in order to do so, read the thread over. I'll try to gather up the things "done" in a following post.


----------



## Sorn

Ok, instead of arguing around forever: what kind of rules would the proponents of seduction rules like to see? Maybe this will move the discussion into a productive direction again.

If the mechanics are sound, I have no problem with it being in the book. 

So, are you guys thinking a new skill? Personally, I am strongly against that, as seduction is already covered in Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or just straight Cha checks, as Bastoche said. Adding new skills is always a pain, so anything that can be resolved with existing skills would certainly be appreciated. 

Guidelines on applicable modifiers? That shouldn't be a problem. 

So, any proposals are certainly welcome, and I am sure if there's a workable system, we can devote a page to it. After all, we do not have any size constraints or have to meet specifications for a printing company or anything. 

Love: apart from the mechanical effects of love which Gez already outlined, I don't think we need much more than that. Anything else regarding love can not be put into game terms (at least if you ask me). 

Pregnancy: We currently have a proposal for a monthly system, and a per-sex-act system. Both have their pros and cons. Personally, I am leaning more towards the per-encounter roll. However,  I do see the benefit of the monthly system for an adventuring couple (or any other couple for that matter) who might have some fun during off-time and hence might produce offspring. 

So, how about this: We already have hard-focus and soft-focus rules. Monthly rolls for pregnancy would fall into soft-focus, while the per-act roll is hard-focus. Some campaigns might even use both. Specific encounters can get their hard-focus treatment, while for general travel or downtime, the monthly roll is used. 

Both systems should be very compatible, to keep the number of different modifiers for the same thing down. After all, people will have to keep track of this stuff. The less confusing, the better.

Now, some general thoughts:

We have been working on this book for quite a while now. From the original team, not too many people are left. I might be wrong, but I think that Kolvar and me are the only active people left from the early days. A high turnover rate for a non-profit RPG product is to be expected, but it certainly doesn't help with getting things done. 

Right now we have some very dedicated people coming up with some excellent material, something which shows me that we are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel (what kind of tunnel is up to your imagination). Let's focus on getting the must-haves ironed out. Then we can go over additional material.

For right now, the way I see it, the order of priorities should be:

-Finalize Core Mechanics (should be just about done) 
-Fetish/Kink/Fret rules
-Pregnancy
-Feats
-Spells
-PrC's
-Equipment (both magical and mundane)
-Monsters

After that, we have room for all kinds of things, be it a prostitute generator, organizations (harems, brothels, virgin warrior nuns, etc), or whatever else you can think of. 

Now, if anybody really wants to see a certain rule that is not on the list for the book, come up with some mechanics and post it. Demanding stuff and arguing about it isn't going to get us anywhere, so let's be constructive.


----------



## Bastoche

*Summary of d20 GUCK's purposes*

"Welcome to the discussion topic for the editing of the great Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. It is advisable that you read all four existing versions of the guide - the Original Guide, the NUCK d20 conversion, the DbS d20 conversion and the beta Naked Blades conversion before contributing, but a little innocence can?t hurt."

4 points to consider: purpose, focus, humour, size.

Klovar's opinion:

"We decided to do a guide with rules, that do try to be mature without the humor of the old"

A quote from Death by Surfeit:

"if we are attempting to provide a clearer and more mature version of the guide, I feel we should have a clearer and more definitive rules set to run with; even the DbS conversion, which I confess is purposefully soft-focus and light-hearted, covers proceedings with more detail!"

his opinion:

"I think the ambiguity of the present system is a major flaw - the concept is right, but it doesn't cover enough bases, as it were, to be applied properly. D&D is a mechanical and precise rules system, almost a wargame, and I feel that the NUCK d20 should reflect this. People should know what they can and can't do, and how they go about doing things - we cannot rely on the arbitration of GMs."

A very good point from DbS:

"Now, I see a greater potential - rather than exist as awkward siblings, the two could be different spins on the same concept, a 'softcore' and a 'hardcore' guide. The DbS could handle the silly aspect, the spells intended for humour only, the more irreverant rules (eg the dirty etchings generator), and so on. The NUCK would go into more detail, cover bases the DbS wouldn?t, give a system with more possibilities than its sibling. This way, we could hope to satisfy all needs whilst keeping a sense of unity. This also makes our lives a whole lot easier."

IMO, the very goal of d20 GUCK, again a quote from DbS:

"For example, if both guides used the same core mechanic (such as the Sexual Prowess check), the DbS would cover enough of the rules, the generic spells and so on to fuel the rest of the guide. The NUCK adds neat twists like sex tricks, special circumstances and more modifiers, giving the audience the tools for whatever they need. It would add the articles on pregnancy and racial sexualities, making it a more comprehensive resource. Whilst I?d need to edit two guides rather than one, a shared bond makes both tasks more enjoyable and more acheivable - furthermore it allows us to offer people two spins on the concept of the d20 GUCK, allowing them to choose the one they like."

Sorn's opinion:

"I also think that having just one book would be better. Not only because that means half the work for me, but also for simplicity's sake. I already lug around 5 tons of gaming books when I am a player, more if I actually run something. Having to reference 2 different books (and of course having to remember which spell was in which one) will only add to the hassle. Plus, there will be a lot of repetition. A lot of the spells will be applicable to either book (especially when it comes to pregnancy, etc.) so do you really want to force people to get both.

A lot of publishers have optional rules offered in sidebars and the like, so I think we can do the same without anyone complaining. I'll make sure to note optional rules as such when I do the layout."

I could go on forever quoting people from the first page, myself included. The important point to take up here is that we are willing to create the most complete sex source book for 3E D&D. Therefore, the main rule set concentrate on a turn by turn executed sex encounters. There will be quick sex rules (soft-focus) as a sidebar for those not interested in a sex-oriented campaign. Let's not reinvent the wheel here. That being said, we are willing to create the most complete guide there is about 3E sex. If seduction needs to be included, it will. Surely as a side bar since it would be soft-focus oriented IMO. Furthermore, many people do not want to use such rules. That very issue came up often and the consensus was: no love, court, seduction rules. We could make a few suggestion on how the current standard skills could be used for these pusposes. Let's hear some suggestions!

quote from psychosama:
"What's the diffrence between this and the other GUCK thread?"

amswer from VVrayven:
"Well, Psyckosama, in here we discussion the actual writting, editing, and making of the new book. The other thread is mainly for tossing around ideas. Death By Surfeit moved development here a while back because nothing was getting done back over there."

Quote from VVrayven:
"Just to clarify:

We have two sets of rules currently in development. A Soft-Focus and a Hard-Focus. Both rules sets (as I see it) are going to be presented in full. The Soft-Focus rules are to see the quick results of one encounter without much rolling or detail. The Hard-Focus rules are indeed turn based and work in a "combat-style" manner. They work with a 6 second round just like standard d20 and involve a series of skill checks and Fortitude saves for resistance. That's why all the DC's are so high and why a common idiot with a 0 in Prowess can still perform to satisfaction (by taking 20). Hence, over 2 minutes, a one category improvement can be made. (So 6 minutes total for the whole encounter).

All of this information about the rules sets I thought was already assumed. I do not think the way the assigning of feats and tricks, or mini-feats works should change between the soft and hard focus rules. They should be a quick and detail version without needed to have different core stats, IMHO."

Summary on the "accepted rules" coming up!


----------



## Sorn

Good summary, Bastoche.

The focus of this effort is, as stated, Carnal Knowledge. "Carnal" really has nothing to do with flowers and romance. Pardon my abstraction here, but it's about all the variations of "Insert Tab 1 into Slot A" and its aftermath (i.e. orgasms, pregnancies, diseases, etc.) in the context of a fantasy game (hence we have spells, magic items, monsters, etc.). 

Again, if people want seduction guidelines, we can put something in. I don't see a problem with that. As it leads up to sex, it can go into the "New Uses for Old Skills" section. Given the placement, this should be short. Two or three sentences with a few suggestions on possible modifiers. Any more would be a waste of time IMO. 

Love doesn't follow any rules in real life, so why would it in a game? Hence, this might be an essay topic for the guide, but there won't be any rules for it.


----------



## Bastoche

I currently gathering the current rules on this thread. It's so large that I'm gonna make a PDF version of it. Should be done today, I hope. No good lokking layout. Just everything hopefully up to date and complete...


----------



## Psyckosama

> *
> The main aim of the GUCK is to support an erotic fantasy game style. A game setting where sex encounters comes first and other types of encounters are second.
> 
> For all those of you only interested in quick sex rules and pregnancy, there will be the "soft-focus" set of rules especially for that purpose.*




I don't wish to sound ignorant but when we get to them, lets try and keep the soft-core rules set from becoming the "redheaded stepchild" of the GUCK. I seriously think just a side bar is too little space. A page or two might cover it better.



> *The rules GUCK is about is rules for sex encounters as a main feature of a campaign. The so-called "hard-focus" rules. All the prior discussion gravitated around that very purpose keeping in mind that most people will rather be interested in soft-focus.*




Noted and understood, but that isn't all it should be.



> *SinbadBleu, I don't know what the hell you're trying to prove here but please read this whole thread over and you'll understand. There's no point in going through juvenile arguing over seduction and love etc. We're here to give rules suggestion to further improve the GUCK rule set. To further improve this set of rules, it is imperative that everybody understands what we are trying to acheive here and in order to do so, read the thread over. I'll try to gather up the things "done" in a following post. *




Okay, I made a recomendation for courtship and love rules now let me impress on my POV. We don't have to recreate the wheel, just give is white walls and a nice set of rims... IE: explain in more detail, give some notes on ways to use it in a campaign, new suduction related uses for old spells abnd skills, and maybe add somemore detail to the rules.



> *Klovar's opinion:
> 
> "We decided to do a guide with rules, that do try to be mature without the humor of the old"
> 
> A quote from Death by Surfeit:
> 
> "if we are attempting to provide a clearer and more mature version of the guide, I feel we should have a clearer and more definitive rules set to run with; even the DbS conversion, which I confess is purposefully soft-focus and light-hearted, covers proceedings with more detail!"*




All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.


----------



## Bastoche

Psyckosama said:
			
		

> I don't wish to sound ignorant but when we get to them, lets try and keep the soft-core rules set from becoming the "redheaded stepchild" of the GUCK. I seriously think just a side bar is too little space. A page or two might cover it better.




Side bar is better than a page or two. Side bar IMO will cover a continuous niche between "redheaded stepchild" to hard-ocus rules. We'll see how it goes. Anyway, the point of soft-focus is that it's not the main feature of the GUCK book. The way it will be edited (as a sidebar or a separate chapter) doesn't change anything.



> Noted and understood, but that isn't all it should be.




Like I said, I think the goal is to cover everything from no-sex to all-sex. If you will 



> Okay, I made a recomendation for courtship and love rules now let me impress on my POV. We don't have to recreate the wheel, just give is white walls and a nice set of rims... IE: explain in more detail, give some notes on ways to use it in a campaign, new suduction related uses for old spells abnd skills, and maybe add somemore detail to the rules.




My point is that there should never be as many details on seduction, love, etc, than there already is on carnal encounters.



> All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.




I do not agree with this at all, but I think we can easily cover both grounds.


----------



## Sorn

> I don't wish to sound ignorant but when we get to them, lets try and keep the soft-core rules set from becoming the "redheaded stepchild" of the GUCK. I seriously think just a side bar is too little space. A page or two might cover it better.




The term "sidebar" might be a bit misleading. In the end, it will most likely be more of a text box that fills a whole page or two. In the early version that's on the site, the quick resolution rules take up about half a page. With the current rules, I expect it to be longer than that, plus various additional sidebars and references mixed in with the rest of the guide. I am also planning an appendix, which will contain the tables and rules summaries (like Mongoose Publishing is doing in most, if not all, of their works).



> Okay, I made a recomendation for courtship and love rules now let me impress on my POV. We don't have to recreate the wheel, just give is white walls and a nice set of rims... IE: explain in more detail, give some notes on ways to use it in a campaign, new suduction related uses for old spells abnd skills, and maybe add somemore detail to the rules.




That's fine. New Uses for Old Skills/Spells is certainly a part of the guide the way I see it. The majority thereof will definitely be geared towards sex, not seduction and love. But seduction and love will certainly be a part of those sections. 

I think the discussion got a little out of hand when it came to seduction and love, but mostly due to a miscommunication regarding the depth of these rules. Suggestions for modifiers and a few paragraphs are certainly within the scope of this book. It came across as if detailed rules akin to the scope of our hard-focus core mechanics were desired. 



> All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.




Definitely. We will already be labelled as perverts or dweebs who can't get any, so if we take ourselves too serious, this will only get worse. As you said, toilet humor is something we should probably stay away from, but we should keep everything somewhat tongue-in-cheek and light-hearted. I think that's where the spell section and the magic item section will really shine. The core mechanics are a little dry, but that's the nature of mechanics. In a similar vein, the character creation rules or the combat section of the PHB aren't all that entertaining to read either.

Addition after reading Bastoche's latest post:

Maybe we need to clarify on the humor aspect... There's a big difference between entertaining and funny, and downright silly throughout the book. If the whole book is dry and stuffy, nobody will read it. Humor was a huge selling point of the original, so we should preserve at least some of that .


----------



## Bastoche

Sorn said:
			
		

> *
> Definitely. We will already be labelled as perverts or dweebs who can't get any, so if we take ourselves too serious, this will only get worse. As you said, toilet humor is something we should probably stay away from, but we should keep everything somewhat tongue-in-cheek and light-hearted. I think that's where the spell section and the magic item section will really shine. The core mechanics are a little dry, but that's the nature of mechanics. In a similar vein, the character creation rules or the combat section of the PHB aren't all that entertaining to read either. *




The fact the flavor text has not yet been touched make it so. I'm sure it will change once the flavor text gets in. As long as the humourous contents is as mature as the rules' mindset, I'm sure it will be more than ok though.

My rules summary is advancing...


----------



## Bastoche

Here it is. In pdf format. Around 30 pages. The text form sucks, but I made it quick...

download it here:

http://www.physique.usherb.ca/~sroy/guck.pdf


----------



## VVrayven

Wow! I picked the wrong few days to miss.

I can't speak for DbS but it seems that he and I are the only ones whom haven't been around to voice our opinions, though we have been quoted enough (thanks Bastoche )

My only real concern at this point is that we have slid off topic. This forum was suppose to be the step by step creation of the rules, and now we are getting bogged down in "what should" and "what if". That is what the other forum was suppose to be for. But, since we are here, lets try to answer questions and push through to get back to the original plan. Which by the way was:

1) Kinks, sexual alignment and suchforth – things that would be in the draft above were they complete at the time this was typed up. Any contributions on this topic are very much valued.

2) Spells, spellcasting and spellcasters – these are essentially a direct extension of the core mechanics and need to be arranged before we can get anything else underway.

3) Magic items – directly based on the mechanics listed above, so probably worth doing next. Once these are done, we can claim to have a relatively comprehensive Guide.

4) Descriptions, essays, monsters, rules for prostitution, pregnancy & diseases, and suchforth. With the advent of their finalisation, the Guide will be pretty much complete.

5) Much, much rejoicing.

Now on to specifics:

I think these rules should be entertaining, but not directly funny or silly. Some of us have tried really hard to make these rules flow well, with 3e style and abstract realism (there's a term for you). But I don't think the humor style used in the original guide should be used. The "Funny as Hell" value of a work seems (in my eyes) to belittle the hard work of all those involved. Now, I'm not saying we can't have a "wink wink, nudge nudge", but I do think we need a different tone from the original which was little more than a collection of semi-workable ideas and jokes thrown together (the spells namely being completly reidiculous). GUCK should be useful from a serious stand-point and not just a "joke-game".



> All I can say is you don't have to do one of the above to get the other. THe GUCK should be funny. That's one of the reasons its so popular, it's a entertaining read. If we make it too dry we'll suck the spirit out of the GUCK. You can be mature but funny, just lower the amount of toilet humor and replace it with lovely concepts that will fit the more serious tome: Dry humor, sarcasm, irony, worldplays, and puns.




I agree with this in the most part and but feel strongly against "slack stick spells" and puns. But the anti-punnism is more a personal problem than a gripe. 

Rules on Seduction:
As one of the lead contributers (i think I've earned that title at least boys): I'll say that I will put ONE page in on rules for this. It will involve NO NEW SKILLS. It will only detail how to use old ones. It will not be absolute and WILL be abstract. If people agree with this, that's great. I hope it settles most of the issue. GUCK should not completly ignore seduction, but these types of things should be role played out with a quick system for those that wish to skip such things.

Rules on Love:
We have one feat (true love) and one side bar (Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder) right now. That's pretty much all there needs to be. Love shouldn't ever be detailed by a mechanic. Even a "love spell" should be somewhat ambigious. Love is one of the most complex emotional and physical patterns in the human psyche. It cannot be modeled or controled. It should be role played and not introduced as a die roll after a sexual encounter or with a seduction roll. (Infatiuation might be covered in seduction, however). Love itself is to wonderful and terrible to cover acurately when we are already trying to keep space down. Expect no system for it (I believe I speak for DbS and the rest of the staff on this one).

Soft vs Hard
I picture soft focus being worked up as an overly long sidebar. I don't think it will be the "stepchild". It will be the section used by people who are not running a sexually intensive game. I picture it being mostly flavor text and a few suggestions about how to integrate other hard focus mechanics in on the fly.



> Well actually a more correct topic would be "What Was Banned From the GUCK Forum"






> Since you tote it so please list the core persons.....and what they have contributed......beyond the original works.




With all due respect SinbadBleu, please do not sow discontent here. I believe I am one of the core here now and I hope you are not implying that we haven't "contributed" anything new from the old guide. We have worked hard here, and yes, it is a forum project so everyone that posts is involved... But seriously, just because someone reads our work doesn't mean they have really gritted down and put effort into it. We have discussed things in forum and come to consenus through our own way. We say such things because we are the ones putting our hours and time into the rules and mechanics. If you have a problem with the way in which we operate, that's fine, you are free to tell us, it is an open forum. I would ask though that you be polite and at least give us the benefit of a doubt that we have considered your opinions. Nothing has been banned from our forum. We are just trying to keep to a plan. I've disagreed with your "size chart" idea, it doesn't mean it wasn't considered. The same goes for elaborate rules for love and seduction. We do thank you for bringing our attnetion to things though. If you wish to contribute more (you've been silent a time it seems) feel free to post.

Welcome back DbS. <hugs> we missed you. 

I agree with you on the spells and other issues. Your pregancy system also needs to be discussed but we seem to have gotten side tracked again. I'd like to get back to the good old plug and go, style that we had. We were making such go progress too. ::sigh::

Anyway, since I've set the trend before. Here is the new order of operations as I see it:

1) Confirm the new Core Rules: Make one post (by DbS if possible) of the new core document.

1a) Sub Rules coverage - clothing, circumstance modifiers... etc...

2) More of the following (and ever ongoing until we finish): Feats, Sex Arts and (when we get there) kinks.

3) The Kinks System (DbS, do you still have this one?)

4) Pregnacy (it gets it's own category and precidence now becuase it is so talked about) We need a quick system and an in-depth system and we need consenus.

5) Sexual Alignment (we had something going here, but it got lost in the storm of posts)

6) Spells and Spellcasting variants. This needs a HEAVY rework, but I'm not going to start until 1-5 are DONE, because the spells should mimic the work of the core rules.

7) Prestige Class and additional ideas.

8) Magic Items and such

9) Descriptions, essays, monsters, rules for prostitution, diseases, and suchforth.

10) Our stance and info on NC...

11) Everything else...

We still have a few open issues as well:

A) DSM & Bondage as Profs? (DbS you said you'd get back to me )

B) Clothing: special mods like armor add ons or just a big list of specific clothings...

C) How are we handling NC: Feats, no feats... Classes, no classes... Ignore or eassys with discussion...

That's it from your friendly dark vixen. <hugs to all> Let's try and get back on track now with some constructive work.

Edit: Excellent work Bastoche. ::blows a kiss:: Great job. You left out my final Carnal Art (the general one which needs a new name, I DbS had one. ) But great job. I don't have the time right now to check it all for correctness, but it looks good. Oh, and there are a few things in there that are still being dicussed and aren't part of the core yet, like Issue A above and how kinks work (though I'm still glad everyone is onboard with my system now. <blush>) Thanks again, Bastoche.


----------



## SinbadBleu

kolvar said:
			
		

> *Just have a few seconds to spare and want to write, that this rather annoys me, that, even with satire mode and everything, people are arguing, what should be in or not.
> So far, this is the development thread for the basic rules and we did the whole thing twice upside down (and that is the reason, why we do it a third time).
> The suggestion, to do another thread, is ok, but will probably lead to nothing, as far as the past has shown.
> My suggestion: collect everything, that does not belong to the topic at hand in a file, put it on the site and when we come to it, we have everything at hand. On a case by case basis, a topic can be discussed immediatly.
> (but probalby, this is all meaningless and I am making something out of nothing, because I can barely look through my eyes and have rather annoying cold. In this case, just forget that I posted). *




Kolvar

How current is the material on the UCK web page or is that even your web page?


----------



## SinbadBleu

Sorn said:
			
		

> <snip>
> So, are you guys thinking a new skill? Personally, I am strongly against that, as seduction is already covered in Bluff, Sense Motive, Diplomacy, or just straight Cha checks, as Bastoche said. Adding new skills is always a pain, so anything that can be resolved with existing skills would certainly be appreciated.
> 
> Guidelines on applicable modifiers? That shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> It was not my plan to come up with new skills that can be used for seduction but use the current ones, with a more "detailed" list of modifers.
> 
> <snip>


----------



## VVrayven

SinbadBleu: If you mean http://www.netbook-of-uck.net/, the the answer is totally OUT OF DATE. Almost nothing that has been dicussed on this thread is on that site. However, it does hold the parent of everything we have been working on. So, at best, I'd say the draft there is 25-40% accurate.

Although it is a difficult read, if you wish a current copy of the rules to date, check out Bastoche's wonderful summary at http://www.physique.usherb.ca/~sroy/guck.pdf.



Edit: and in answer to your previous post, we seem to be playing post tag,  , yes, I plan on doing a summary of the existing skills with a few scant modifiers. Please feel free to post anything helpful though or even your own take on it.


----------



## SinbadBleu

*Re: Summary of d20 GUCK's purposes*



			
				Bastoche said:
			
		

> *"Welcome to the discussion topic for the editing of the great Guide to Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. It is advisable that you read all four existing versions of the guide - the Original Guide, the NUCK d20 conversion, the DbS d20 conversion and the beta Naked Blades conversion before contributing, but a little innocence can?t hurt."
> 
> Is there a location that all of the materials can be gone thru?
> 
> NUCK? Netbook? Where is it if is not a pay for.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Summary on the "accepted rules" coming up! *




A summary of what has been presented would be great. Thanks


----------



## SinbadBleu

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *Here it is. In pdf format. Around 30 pages. The text form sucks, but I made it quick...
> 
> download it here:
> 
> http://www.physique.usherb.ca/~sroy/guck.pdf *




I am unable to download it, with firewall and off. Is anyone else have issues getting to downloaded.?


----------



## VVrayven

I can help you out with this one if you wish. Post your email, or you can send it to me (vvrayven@yahoo.com) and I'll email you the summary. 

Edit: Got to leave now for a while. I sent a copy to you Enworld Address, hope that helps.


----------



## Bastoche

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> Edit: Excellent work Bastoche. ::blows a kiss:: Great job. You left out my final Carnal Art (the general one which needs a new name, I DbS had one. ) But great job. I don't have the time right now to check it all for correctness, but it looks good. Oh, and there are a few things in there that are still being dicussed and aren't part of the core yet, like Issue A above and how kinks work (though I'm still glad everyone is onboard with my system now. <blush>) Thanks again, Bastoche. *




Each time a consensus is made, someone should email me the section so I can update the PDF file. I'm a little busy at work these days, but I'll try to find some time to clear up what I already summed and edit it a bit. I'll read through it to make sure it's understandable. Understandable in such a way that only flavor text/artwork will be missing.


----------



## Bastoche

SinbadBleu said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I am unable to download it, with firewall and off. Is anyone else have issues getting to downloaded.? *




We've had some server troubles just now. It should be working now.


----------



## Sorn

Bastoche, thanks for the summary. I think that's a lot better than having super-long posts.

In any case, going over it, one thing jumped out at me (which I had previously  forgotten). 

Currently, soft-focus rules do not allow the use of Carnal Arts or Techniques. 

Now, a group is playing with hard-focus rules (HF), but decides to have a soft-focus (SF) encounter. Character X has two Carnal Arts, lots of ranks in Prowess and a great number of techniques and kinks/frets. However, none of these matter for his SF gratification roll, except for his Prowess ranks. Even when simplified into a single roll, in a given encounter, he should be able to employ some of the things he's learned to his (or his partner's) benefit. 

A different group is not using HF rules, but a few of the characters are frequently using sex for both pleasure and to further the game itself (using sex to get information, etc.). To that end they took a PrC from the GUCK. However, since they are not planning on using HF, the prerequisite of a Carnal Art, or kink, or other HF rule will not let them take it, even though it would be a perfect fit for their characters (unless of course they have no problem wasting a feat slot on a feat they will never use). 

I could provide you with a lot of other examples, but I think the point becomes clear: both SF and HF rules need to be compatible enough to allow for seamless integration with the rest of the material. Having SF-only and HF-only will make things cumbersome, and the overall quality will suffer accordingly. 

I don't mean to be a pest about this issue, but there has to be a way to mesh SF and HF to allow seamless integration. For your average Jack and Jill (no carnal arts, no kinks, no frets, a few ranks in Prowess), the current SF rules work fine. However, SF stops working all that well once you deal with adventurers with a slight sexual bent or NPC sex professionals who might even have a carnal art, even though they are lower-level. 

Before I start rambling on, am I the only one who sees it this way? I am not saying that we should get rid of HF or switch the focus of the book. I simply want to give more options to the SF games out there. I think we all agree that the majority of people who d/l the GUCK will stick to SF games.


----------



## SinbadBleu

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Wow! I picked the wrong few days to miss.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Rules on Seduction:
> As one of the lead contributers (i think I've earned that title at least boys): I'll say that I will put ONE page in on rules for this. It will involve NO NEW SKILLS. It will only detail how to use old ones. It will not be absolute and WILL be abstract. If people agree with this, that's great. I hope it settles most of the issue. GUCK should not completly ignore seduction, but these types of things should be role played out with a quick system for those that wish to skip such things. *




I would prefer to see more on this in the vein of hard rules I do not know if one page could cover it.



> <snip>
> With all due respect SinbadBleu, please do not sow discontent here. I believe I am one of the core here now and I hope you are not implying that we haven't "contributed" anything new from the old guide. We have worked hard here, and yes, it is a forum project so everyone that posts is involved... But seriously, just because someone reads our work doesn't mean they have really gritted down and put effort into it. We have discussed things in forum and come to consenus through our own way. We say such things because we are the ones putting our hours and time into the rules and mechanics. If you have a problem with the way in which we operate, that's fine, you are free to tell us, it is an open forum. I would ask though that you be polite and at least give us the benefit of a doubt that we have considered your opinions. Nothing has been banned from our forum. We are just trying to keep to a plan. I've disagreed with your "size chart" idea, it doesn't mean it wasn't considered. The same goes for elaborate rules for love and seduction. We do thank you for bringing our attnetion to things though. If you wish to contribute more (you've been silent a time it seems) feel free to post.




It was not my intent to sow discontent. 

I never stated or implied that the core had not contributed anything either.

As for being polite......that is a POV and will not go there. 

I have no issue that breast size being used or not, I do not have an issue with "we".

<snip>


----------



## SinbadBleu

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *
> 
> We've had some server troubles just now. It should be working now. *




Bastoche: The link is now working. Thanks

VVrayven: I have it now thanks for the offer.


----------



## Sorn

Holy Cow!!! Here I am typing up my post about SF/HF integration, and there's 10 new posts when I am done. 

Welcome back Vrayven... 

Yes, you have absolutely earned the titles of "Core Person" and "Lead Contributors". That's aside from the "Dark Vixen" title you already had.  As a matter of fact, while I consider myself one of the core people, I am certainly not too big on the contribution end, aside from constructive criticism. I guess my contribution will come when I piece everything together in a decent-looking package. So, kudos to you.  

Anyway:



> Soft vs Hard
> I picture soft focus being worked up as an overly long sidebar. I don't think it will be the "stepchild". It will be the section used by people who are not running a sexually intensive game. I picture it being mostly flavor text and a few suggestions about how to integrate other hard focus mechanics in on the fly.




The integration is exactly what I was talking about in my last post. Do we have anything on this topic yet?


----------



## Bastoche

Sorn said:
			
		

> *I could provide you with a lot of other examples, but I think the point becomes clear: both SF and HF rules need to be compatible enough to allow for seamless integration with the rest of the material. Having SF-only and HF-only will make things cumbersome, and the overall quality will suffer accordingly.
> 
> I don't mean to be a pest about this issue, but there has to be a way to mesh SF and HF to allow seamless integration. For your average Jack and Jill (no carnal arts, no kinks, no frets, a few ranks in Prowess), the current SF rules work fine. However, SF stops working all that well once you deal with adventurers with a slight sexual bent or NPC sex professionals who might even have a carnal art, even though they are lower-level.
> 
> Before I start rambling on, am I the only one who sees it this way? I am not saying that we should get rid of HF or switch the focus of the book. I simply want to give more options to the SF games out there. I think we all agree that the majority of people who d/l the GUCK will stick to SF games.*




I agree. But from my point of view not much soft-focus thinkering has been done. We should get through the hard-focus first since it's the hardest part and then adapt the soft-focus to these rules at the edition. Sorta...

It's much easier to go from hard focus to soft focus than vice versa.

Edit: to answer Sorn's question: not really aside a table for soft-focus prowess check.


----------



## Sorn

> I agree. But from my point of view not much soft-focus thinkering has been done. We should get through the hard-focus first since it's the hardest part and then adapt the soft-focus to these rules at the edition. Sorta...
> It's much easier to go from hard focus to soft focus than vice versa.




Bastoche: I agree with you there... I just wanted to bring this up before it's too late...


----------



## VVrayven

SinbadBleu: No hard feelings. 

As for the seduction rules, I will now start on my summary of the skills and the modifiers. We'll just see how long it gets. Feel free to add any input you may have. I've already seen a few of your ideas and taken note.

Sorn & Bashtoche (and DbS):

I think we can mess the Soft Focus integration of HF rules once they are all complete. Status conditions and the like function in either realm well, though aren't taken into account on the Grat Chart, but this is fine. I think once we have everything done, it might be easier to say put a guideline in the SF part say like "X grants an +Y if circumstances Z prevail." Catch my meaning. 

And just to clarify. The rules are HF. Soft Focus is really just a quick resolution chart for a sexual encounter. Hard Focus is more a misnomer. Just because people plan on using SF doesn't preclude them from taking any of the core HF rules, feats, skills, ect... As for bonuses in the SF rules because of all the HF features, well we can make that happen once we have all the HF stuff together and finalized.  Does that help?



> Yes, you have absolutely earned the titles of "Core Person" and "Lead Contributors". That's aside from the "Dark Vixen" title you already had.  As a matter of fact, while I consider myself one of the core people, I am certainly not too big on the contribution end, aside from constructive criticism. I guess my contribution will come when I piece everything together in a decent-looking package. So, kudos to you.




Thanks. <big smile> Kudos right back attcha!


----------



## Bastoche

Great! I think we all agree on the SF-HF thing! Carry on


----------



## Sorn

That's exactly what I was envisioning. In addition, I can easily see letting characters with Carnal Arts use a certain number of them during SF checks. The first ability seems to be to use the key attribute for the CA in addition to Cha... so that is something that can be easily carried over to SF.


----------



## kolvar

I think I have no part in this project anymore and wanted to ask someone else to take over the homepage of the guide.


----------



## Sorn

Kolvar, I hope you will reconsider. You have  been the guiding force behind this project for a long time. It would be a shame to loose you now. 

As for the site, I could do it, but I currently have no webhost for the project (and I am not going to any of the free hosts). Who is hosting the site and taking care of care of the domain name now?


----------



## kolvar

Zelda (remember her) got a friend, who works with some company or something like that. I would put you in contact with Zelda and hand you the id and password for the ftp (if I find them (g)).


----------



## Sorn

Since I'll be the file monkey anyway come layout time, I'll volunteer, unless there are any other takers.

I just went through my email archives, and I still have the account info. However, if you could check with Zelda and see whether we have this server for good or if this is going to expire anytime in the near future.


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## Bastoche

We have experienced other server problems... Please be patient.


----------



## Danastes

*Refered to this Thread by Sorn*

On the wizard mature boards Sorn refered me here when I asked for a sites that deal with Beauty, Love and Romance. The reason I asked at the wizard board is that I put together a very small site for 'Softer Side of D&D'. I was trying to avoid having to much 'hard stuff' as I figure other sites will cover that. I provide a link below to the project I had been working on. 

I will get around to looking at the rules in the PDF format and have visited some of the sites linked in thread.

http://www.shatteredfractine.com/love/index.html


----------



## Gez

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Rules on Love:
> We have one feat (true love) *




What about that one ?
And also, that article. I like the quote, "Can love happen only every three levels ?"



			
				VVrayven said:
			
		

> *and one side bar (Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder) right now. That's pretty much all there needs to be. Love shouldn't ever be detailed by a mechanic. Even a "love spell" should be somewhat ambigious.*




There's a love potion in the DMG... And it's a staple of fantasy (Tristan & Isolde, for example). However,...



			
				VVrayven said:
			
		

> *Love is one of the most complex emotional and physical patterns in the human psyche. It cannot be modeled or controled. It should be role played and not introduced as a die roll after a sexual encounter or with a seduction roll. (Infatuation might be covered in seduction, however). Love itself is to wonderful and terrible to cover acurately when we are already trying to keep space down. Expect no system for it (I believe I speak for DbS and the rest of the staff on this one).*




...I agree.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Bastoche: Could you in the GUCK PDF, format some of the tabular infomation into tables. It is very hard to read/understand, in many parts.

Question: Was Erotic Dancing taken out or never included in this verision? The naked blades has a very nice beginning for erotic dancing including the DC for same.


----------



## Bastoche

I'll take a look at the PDF file.

I use a latex editor as a word processor; word sucks! and I used to it for scientific equations much more than text editing. I'll try to make easier to read asap but don't count on it too soon as I'll really busy these days... I'll post each time the file is updated.


----------



## SinbadBleu

*Re: Refered to this Thread by Sorn*



			
				Danastes said:
			
		

> *<snip>http://www.shatteredfractine.com/love/index.html *




Nice sites Danastes, where exactly is the wizards mature boards?


----------



## Bastoche

I thought of two things. Mostly for hard-focus campaigns. They kind of mesh together.

idea 1:
When we'll be at the flavoring stage, couldn't we create an erotic fantasy campaign setting? I thinking about putting a source book along the lines of the oriental adventures campaign settings. New feats, new spells, new PrC maybe even new class, new skills, etc. And a few tidbits on an erotic campaign setting. 

idea 2:
With idea 1 in mind, we could make the carnal arts a bit like ancestor feats. In that campaign setting, human bonus feat would have to be a carnal art and maybe the arts could be restricted to level one... Food for thoughts.

P.S. a new edition of the guck.pdf coming up soon!!!


----------



## Bastoche

File updated.

http://www.physique.usherb.ca/~sroy/guck.pdf


----------



## Death By Surfeit

*Winces at the avalanche of posts over the last couple of days*

Sorry for being MIA for such an enormous drama. I haven't the opportunity to avswer everyone's posts individually this time around, but I'll try to address the issues at hand.

Although the purpose of this thread is clear - the production of a singular final guide of publishable quality, the nature ('culture' if you will) has been somewhat denigrated as of late.

The reason why this thread was separated from the original was so that we could concentrate on a focused and systematic route to the guide's actualisation - the other thread had become a somewhat disorganised brainstorm; some good ideas were surfacing, but it was difficult to get any work done.

On this thread in the past, each topic would arise, be discussed, have draft proposals done, gather feedback and become finalised; all this in a sequential order that made sense. People have had ideas, but conserved them for when appropriate and accept the group consensus when they were unpopular - this includes several of my own, for reference.

I would like to thank Bastoche for his brilliant work in summarising the ideas and rules of the thread, although I haven't had an opportunity to read over the rules in detail. Respect also goes to VVrayven for attempting to restore order, and Sorn for making some very good points.

I am, however, concerned about your announcement, Kolvar: your contributions, whilst sparse, have always been valued and it is sad to lose someone who has worked so hard toward things. If you wish to hand over the reins of the website to someone else by all means do so, but don't disown youself from the editing board.

Sinbadbleu, your points are valid but please avoid being aggressive. Your comments hold more strength when not let down by sarcasm, satire and churlishness.

Anyways, it's all very well bickering away on such matters but I feel we'd be best advised to get back on topic. I will try now to address outstanding issues and provide a few pointers for people to discuss.

* I would move to cease discussion of seduction rules, pregnancy and SF/HF crossover for the moment. I have a lot to say, but there are better times to say it. Once the extended mechanics are sorted (what we are working on now), we will discuss them in the detail they deserve.

*The finalised core rules take up more than Enworld will allow in one post. As this topic is getting a little lengthly, I will open another when the mechanics are absolutely sorted, with the current rules as the first post. I will inform you all when such happens.

* DSM & Bondage as techniques: There are several avenues I could take on this subject. At first I was thinking of having them as techniques necessary to 'unlock' a kink bonus (see Kinks, below), but eschewed this as it made them an exception - not a very 3e thing to do.

What I would like to suggest is to have DSM, Bondage alongside things such as dirty talk and lapdance as Prowess techniques to incite mental arousal instead - what do people think of this? And no, lapdance as a Perform method  does not count, if only for mechanical reasons.

* Kinks: I have no rules-type text to post just yet, but they go along the lines of the following:

Kinks are divided into two categories - fetishes and frets. Fetishes apply a kink bonus to Arousal checks made against the character when the fetish is being played out, and can induce a Horny state unless a Will save is made. Fetishes apply a kink penalty instead, and will reduce mental arousal unless a Will save is made.

Kink names are straightforward and self explanatory, taking the form of fetish: bondage, or fret: old people. Latin names have been eschewed as pointless and awkward (_you've got pericuniophobia? Uhhh..._).

Each kink has a strength: this number is the kink bonus/penalty to checks made against the character. The Will save DC to avoid gaining/losing mental arousal equals 10 + kink strength. Kinks are listed, with typical strengths. As a general rule, the more obscure or bizarre the kink, the higher the strength.


That just about summarises what input I can give. What I should like from the rest of the board at the moment is:
* confirmation, rejection or alternatives to DSM, bondage and others as 'mental techniques' of Prowess
* feedback on the kink idea, and (if possible) suggestions of as many kinks as you can
* your ideas on clothing - if we are to produce an 'outfit list', and if so some suggestions of possible outfits to be covered (full details can be arranged later)

There, that should be more than sufficient to tax your imaginations. I heartily look forward to receiving everyone’s feedback.


----------



## VVrayven

Excellent! <puts on her glasses> Back to work!

First off: I love your adaptation of my Kinks section. The strength idea is wonderful! I think it works well, though we need to detail "turn-off" as well, or is it simply the strength of the kink is the penalty?

As for confirmation, rejection or alternatives to DSM, bondage and others as 'mental techniques' of Prowess... Okay, well mental arousal really goes hand in hand with things like seduction, erotic dance and the like. I have volunteered to take this on myself and have a great idea that I'm working on (at least I think so ) It should be the next thing I post. So let me handle a mental arousal issue and we'll go from there as soon as it is done (which mean's we'll reject mine and try something else, or we'll use it and everyone will be happy, well almost. <giggle>)

As for Clothing, I really hope you would reconsider your stance on clothing modifiers DbS. I know we don't have a lot of precident, but I think add-ons like "easy-access" and "seductive" would be far better than making an overly exhaustive list. I agree that cost multipliers are a bad idea though... any ideas? This will be my background project...

Also, should the multiple partner syngery bonus be gained from just making the present arousal condition, or only if you actually get the next category higher?

Priorities for All:

0) Finalizing the core rules...

1) More Kinks, Feats, and Sex Arts

1a) The Mental Arousal Issues (which are forthcoming )

2) Clothing Rules

3) Sexual Alignment

That's it for now. Thanks for stepping in DbS. <big smile> I'll have stuff for you soon.

Edit: BASTOCHE: While I love the idea, I don't think any of this material should be put into the core GUCK book. I however would LOVE to help you put together a source worldbook of your own.  I want to do one myself. Perhaps this isn't the best place for that discussion though. Drop me an e-mail at VVrayven@yahoo.com (note that it is a double v not a W) and I'll be MORE than happy to discuss it with you.


----------



## VVrayven

As promised:

THE PROWESS SKILL v1.3

This skill is in addition to the skills normally available to characters, as found in Chapter 3 of the PHB.

PROWESS (Cha)
Use this skill to bewilder your sexual partners with an array of exotic techniques. Prowess is a class skill for all characters.

As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess gives you a technique within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks – you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate technique.

There are two types of techniques, basic and exotic (either of which can be taken as a rank). The techniques are listed below, organised into groups. Each technique found is chosen from those examples in brackets. If the group is open-ended, you are free to design your own additions, providing they remain within the nature of those preceding it.

Basic Proficiencies:
Caress (By type – Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
Masturbation (Male, Female)
Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
Penetrative (By position – Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Sodomy (Receiving)
Toys (By item – Dildos, Wands, Wizards’ Staffs, etc.)

Exotic Proficiencies:
Bondage (By type – Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
DSM (Domination, Submission)
Pillow Talk (Dirty, Sweet, Poetic)
Erotic Dance (Lapdance, Poledance, Striptease)

Special: Regardless of circumstances, it is impossible to take 10 or take 20 on a Prowess check, due to its unpredictable nature.

THE PROWESS CHECK

Performing a Prowess check on someone (including yourself) is a miscellaneous full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity. If an attack of oppurtunity hits you, the damage inflicted is coutned as a penalty to your prowess check. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile.

It is possible to make Prowess checks against more than one partner as the same full-round action; if your character wishes to do so, a penalty of -4 per additional partner is applied to all checks. You cannot make more simultaneous checks than (1+Dex bonus) at any time, unless otherwise stated. In addition, the multiple prowess actions must be possible (a male cannot use a penatrative technuqie on more than one person for example).

Prowess checks are a full round action and thus all of them are resolved for a single target at the end of the round (they may each be rolled on initiative count, but their effect does not take place until the end of the entire round). Each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC neccessary to raise the target's arousal, the base roll recieves a +2 synergy bonus. If a participant simply hits the current arosual state DC there is no modifier. If the participant only can hit an arousal DC lower than the current state, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.

Example: Girl A is pleasuring herself (masturbation) while her partner (Guy B) has intercourse with her (she is only passively using her prowess on him, thus gains the full bonus to her own check and no multiple partner penalty). Both of them are aroused at the start of the round. Girl A has two prowess checks being using on her, (Guy B's and her own). Guy B gets a DC 21 (enough for the DC 20 to peak her) and Girl A gets a DC 19 (enough for the DC 18 to peak her). Guy Bs is the base roll (because it is higher) and it gets a +2 synergy bonus because of Girl A's success. So the final target DC is 20 and the check is a 23 (she is peaked). If instead, Guy B had his a DC 3, Girl A's check would have been the base and suffered a -2 penalty, thus the target DC for peak would be an 18 and the check a 17, and she would still only be aroused.

When making a Prowess check, you may apply as much or as little of your rank bonus as you desire, but the declaration must be made BEFORE you make the roll. Consult the table below for DCs according to your partner’s present condition, where the numbers on the left represent a male partner, and the ones on the right a female one.

After the check is made, the partner’s Arousal is changed to fit the highest DC the character achieved. They may resist this change by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC equal to the character's Prowess check, adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current \ Target None Aroused Peaked Climaxed Ecstatic
None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused <1/<5 1/5 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked <1/<5 1/5 8/10 16/20 32/40

It is possible to keep a partner in Climax or Ecstasy for more than one round, although this may result in adverse effects (see Status Conditions for more details). In order to do so, use the DCs listed for a Peaked character, but double it for each round spent in Climax or Ecstasy. Thus, a Peaked male character would be DC 16 to raise to Climaxed initially, DC32 the round after that, DC 48 on the third round and so on. If the DC for Climaxed is not sustained, male characters lose all arousal; female characters reside to Aroused instead.

However, after the first round spent in Climax or Ecstasy, each further round spent in Climax does one point of temporary Wisdom damage; each round spent Ecstatic does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage.

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there. In the round in which the check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back on their initiative pass. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.

TECHNIQUE SUITABILITY

Only basic prowess proficinces can be used to physically arouse a partner. Rules for using exotic proficiences are covered below. Not all Prowess techniques have equal application – some are best used to initially Arouse a partner, whilst others are best for bringing them to Climax. Switching techniques is considered a move-equivalent action, meaning that Prowess checks cannot usually be used in the same round. Listed below are the modifiers to the DC for bringing a partner to different levels of arousal (as mentioned under circumstantial modifiers), based on groups of techniques.

Group - Aroused / Peaked / Climaxed / Ecstatic DC modifiers

Caressing - Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10
Masturbation - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
Oral - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
Penetrative - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Sodomy - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Toys - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0

EXOTIC PROWESS TECHNIQUEs
Exotic proficienes are not used to physically arouse a partner, rather they are used to raise the partner's mental arousal level. The procedure for using exotic prowess is identical to that of normal prowess rolls, with the following exceptions:

--One full minute (10 rounds) is required to activate an exotic technique. Checks are also made only once per minute. If the character is interupted during this time and unable to complete the act, the attempt automatically fails and the minute must be started over. Only one prowess roll is made for the entire minute.

--A partner resists mental arousal with their Will save instead of their Fortitude save.

--It is possible to use exotic prowess checks on more than one person and unless otherwise noted, the procedure is the same.

Mental Arousal is often easier at first, but extremely difficult to get high results. All of the usual circumstantial modifiers for prowess also apply to exotic prowess rolls. The following table lists the progression of mental arousal using exotic prowess:

Table X-XX: Mental Arousal DCs
Current \ Target None Horny Lustful Delierious
None    <10/<15	10/15	50/55	90/95
Horny   <1/<5	1/5	30/35	70/75
Lustful <1/<5	1/5	10/15	50/55

Bondage: 5 or more ranks in Use Rope provides +2 syngergy bonus to this skill. Subjects that are bound may also be pleasured using normal prowess checks after a successful (minimum DC 10) use of this exotic techmique. If this is done, your partner continues to get the benefit from all kinks associated with bondage.

DSM: 5 or more ranks in intimidate grants a +2 synergy bonus to domination chekcs. 5 or more ranks in sense motive grants a +2 synergy bonus to submission checks. Because of the focus required for this skill, it is very difficult to use with multiple partners and all penalties for doing so are doubled. The maximum number of people that can be affected at a time with this proficiency is equal to your charisma modifier +1. Subjects that are dominated or turned on by your submission may also be pleasured using normal prowess checks after a successful (minimum DC 10) use of this exotic technique. If this is done, your partner continues to get the benefit from all kinks associated with DSM.

Pillow Talk: 5 or more ranks in bluff or diplomacy grants a +2 synergy bonus to pillow talk checks (these bonuses stack).

Erotic Dance: 5 or more ranks in Perform (with dance) grants a +2 synergy bonus to erotic dance. Erotic dance can be used on a large number of people. Virtually anyone who is within 30ft of the dancer and can see her well can be affected, they gain a +2 bonus to their Will saves. If the dancer focuses on a single person, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her check.

-------------------------------------

Seduction

Seduction is basiclly convincing a potential partner that you are an acceptable mate and trying to get them turned on. My suggestions for how to carry this out are as follows:

Bluff: Can be used to as normal to convince a quary that you are a suitable subject. If more than one person is wooing the quary, the highest result seems more favorable (unless of course the subject KNOWS a more favorable subject, such as a lover or person with a higher position on the inclination chart) Either way, the quary recieves an opposed sense motive to see through your scheme.

Diplomacy: Can be used to convince a quary that they find your attractive and a suitable mate. The DC to do so depends on their current inclination:

Hostile:	35
Unfriendly:	25
Indiffernt:	15
Friend:		5
Helpful:	1
Charmed:	less than 1


Just beause someone finds you an acceptable partner does not mean they will sleep with you. Mentaly arousing them to Horny with Pillow Talk is suggested to be the next step in seduction and this would involve a prowess roll. For those of you who wish a table, convincing a quary to go to bed with you should be modified by all the usual prowess modifiers and look something like this (use bluff or diplomacy)

		Turned-OFF	None		Horny		Lustful
Hostile:	105		95		45		20
Unfriendly:	85		75		35		15
Indiffernt:	65		55		25		10
Friend:		45		35		15		5
Helpful:	35		25		10		1
Charmed:	25		15		5		less than 1

<takes glasses off and rubs eyes> Time for a rest.


----------



## Bastoche

I'll updatet the file with this version soon. I noticed that I had already included two different version of the process check in the file. The second one was posted concerning many parters prowess check. I'll try to gather the info from the three version, this one and the other two.

I have a question concerning fatigue and exhaustion. 1+con rounds. Is it consecutive round or not?

The way I cut'n'pasted the post seems to be coherent and understandable although sometimes redundant. When I'll have a few minutes, I'll clear it all.


----------



## VVrayven

No. It isn't consecutive. That is the number of rounds you get before exhaustion period.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Bastoche said:
			
		

> *File updated.
> 
> http://www.physique.usherb.ca/~sroy/guck.pdf *




Bastoche: Thank you a much more readable form and format.


----------



## SinbadBleu

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *SinbadBleu: No hard feelings.
> *




None taken now unless you wish to inflict lets talk about black leather, feather boas, cat o nine tails and Flamenco music.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *<snip>....churlishness.*



..........Thats your one. 



> *
> <snip>
> * I would move to cease discussion of seduction rules, pregnancy and SF/HF crossover for the moment. I have a lot to say, but there are better times to say it. Once the extended mechanics are sorted (what we are working on now), we will discuss them in the detail they deserve.<snip>*




Kinda like herding cats with a feather play stick, thru a pasture with catnip in it.


----------



## SinbadBleu

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *<snip>
> 
> Basic Proficiencies:
> Caress (By type ? Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
> Masturbation (Male, Female)
> Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
> Penetrative (By position ? Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
> Sodomy (Receiving)
> Toys (By item ? Dildos, Wands, Wizards? Staffs, etc.)*



Where would you place things such as Breast sex and Frotage(sp)


> *
> 
> Exotic Proficiencies:
> Bondage (By type ? Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
> DSM (Domination, Submission)
> Pillow Talk (Dirty, Sweet, Poetic)
> Erotic Dance (Lapdance, Poledance, Striptease)*



Please do not forget the most erotic dance Belly Dancing.


> *
> <snip>
> Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
> Current \ Target None Aroused Peaked Climaxed Ecstatic
> None <13/<16 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
> Aroused <1/<5 1/5 14/18 28/36 56/72
> Peaked <1/<5 1/5 8/10 16/20 32/40*



Question/clarification here: I see five column headers but six columns delimited by the "/".????
[QOUTE]*
<snip>
*[/QUOTE]


----------



## Loren Pechtel

Got a bit of a monkey wrench to throw in here:  Contraception isn't nearly effective enough.  Consider the example some pages ago that gave a 17% chance for a young woman to get pregnant.  What happens if she takes the pill?  The chance drops to about 6%.  That's about a 50% chance/year.  Barrier methods do better, a 3% chance/month, but that's still a 30% chance/year.  The fundies might have you believe contraception is that ineffective but that's not reality.

     Furthermore, the effectiveness (as in the % of pregnancies blocked) of both forms of contraception is affected by the male's potency, which makes no sense.

     I don't think contraception should be part of the pregnancy odds roll at all.  Rather it should be a fixed chance (based on the method) to block an otherwise successful roll.


----------



## VVrayven

> Question/clarification here: I see five column headers but six columns delimited by the "/".????




Read: <13/<16  --  13 / 16   --   26 / 32 --- etc..  

Breast Sex is missing. I'd put it under Caress as it doesn't do much for the women (so I've heard, I can't manage it myself with much success).

I'm not familiar with Frotage... ? 

Loren Pechtel: When we get back around to the pregnacy rules, we'll address this as well. Thanks for the input and welcome. 

I've never heard of Flamenco music by the way, hate whips, and fine leather to be a little harsh... <giggle>

g'night boys.


----------



## Sorn

Great timing on my part again... take a day off, and the board is flooded with posts again. 

Anyway:

DbS: Thanks for getting us back on track.  

VVrayven: I like the mechanics as they stand. Did you run this version through your Java program? If so, how did it work out?

Bastoche: While a sexual campaign setting would be cool, I think it's a little beyond the scope of this book. However, once we are done with this, I'd gladly help out with it. It'd be a very nice follow-up to the GUCK. 

On to business: I have the server information, so I'll probably do some revisions to the site over the weekend.  I'll post here as soon as anything significant is done.


----------



## Sorn

Quick Site FYI:

I am working on a new design right now. It is going to be somewhat streamlined, as we have a ton of stuff on there that's rather dated.

So, I'd like some feedback on this idea for a status page... We currently have an online version of the guide, which is a hodgepodge of different versions and editions. Instead, I propose a page that has a chapter list, which in turn links to each chapter as we get it done. There'll be a column for each chapter that tells when it was last updated, state of completion, etc. 

Any thoughts?


----------



## Bastoche

You could make a "things done" section and an "under development" section. Just a thought...

We'll talk about the campaign setting once the GUCK rules are done 

I'll try to rewrite a version of my complied file in a PHB-like format. Chapter 1, character creation, chapter 2 races, chapter 3 classes, chapter 4 skills, chapter 5 feats, etc. Most chapters will be empty at first though...


----------



## Sorn

Bastoche... that's pretty much what I had in mind. 

While I wait for the site download to finish, I am going to go through a couple similar books and see how they are laid out. Reason being is that for the GUCK, the skill section is a lot more important than the race or class section (as both of them depend on the skills). Maybe the splatbook layout will be better for our purpose. 

This section will be my first priority on the site, so I should have something in a few hours.


----------



## Bastoche

I would make the skill chapter somewhat limited and make a chapter analogue to the combat chapter where most details about the mechanics would be put in. So in the skills section, I see only a few pages. An entry about prowess, new use of old skills (seduction anyone  ) and things like that.

Then in the "congress" chapter it would be explained as a turn based mechanics just like the combat chapter of the PHB.

I see a feat chapter and a chapter analogue to the "martial arts" chapter of the oriental adventures called, guess what, carnal arts. What do you think?


----------



## VVrayven

Thanks Sorn. I haven't the need to put these into a Javascript though. There is no chance of a person with even a Prowess 8 really getting a character Lustful. So, no Javascript unless there is a big call for it. Glad everyone likes the revision. 

I agree with Sorn and Bastoche on the chapters index. It might be difficult to split up the prowess run downs from the skills, but I think it can be done. I'll get started now. 

As for new skills though... I think the skills section should be mostly about new uses for old skills (I still haven't heard any feedback on my seduction new use mechanics). And I want to go on record for saying this now. *I do not feel any new Skill besides Prowess should be added!* That's right, I don't think we should add a seduction skill. Seduction should be covered lightly by the pre-existing skills (such as Bluff and Diplomacy) which are more than capable of handling the function.

Edit: th above wasn't an attack at anyone.  Just wanted to get that out in the open. 

The new site idea sounds wonderful. 

Heh, what's in the Equipment section besides clothing... <evil grin>


----------



## Bastoche

VVrayven said:
			
		

> * I do not feel any new Skill besides Prowess should be added! That's right, I don't think we should add a seduction skill. Seduction should be covered lightly by the pre-existing skills (such as Bluff and Diplomacy) which are more than capable of handling the function.
> *




I absolutly agree. But, while not exactly new skills, craft(sex toy) and profession(prostitute) are two examples of things that could be covered in the skill chapter. In oriental adventures, there is only one new skill. The chapter has ~3 pages. The soft-focus version of the prowess check could be explained there only.


----------



## Sorn

Ok, here's a preliminary chapter rundown.

Introduction
-What this book is and is not
-How to use this book

Chapter 1: Skills
-New Skill: Prowess
-New Uses for old skills

Chapter 2: Feats
-New Feats
(-New Uses for existing Feats)
-Carnal Arts

Chapter 3: ???
-Sexual Alignment
-Kinks/Frets

Chapter 4: Congress
-Hard Focus/Soft Focus
-Turn-based mechanics

Chapter 5: The Morning After
-Pregnancy/Childbirth
-Diseases

Chapter 6: Classes
-Notes on existing classes
-Prestige Classes

Chapter 7: Sexual Magic
-New Uses for existing spells
-New spells

Chapter 8: Toy Chest
-Mundane Equipment/Clothing
-Magic Items

Chapter 9: Sexuality in your campaign
-Racial notes
-Organizations
-NC discussion

Chapter 10: Creatures
-Notes on existing creatures
-New Monsters
-Templates

Appendix I: Plane of Lust
Appendix II: Rules Summary 


Some of these things might be dropped, like New Uses for Existing Feats... don't know if there will be any. 

I agree with not adding any new skills besides Prowess.  If there was a Cha-based skill like Craft or Profession, I don't think we would even have Prowess as a new skill. 

As far as equipment goes, there's a list floating around somewhere that has a bunch of new items, mostly mundane sex toys and sexual accessories (chastity belt, better beds, etc.)

Site: I am battling with Dreamweaver to get the new design straightened out, and as soon as I am done, I'll let everyone know.


----------



## SinbadBleu

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Read: <13/<16  --  13 / 16   --   26 / 32 --- etc..
> 
> Breast Sex is missing. I'd put it under Caress as it doesn't do much for the women (so I've heard, I can't manage it myself with much success). *




Well ok for now on the location for breast sex. For the female it would be alot of mental arousal for her end of the act.


> *
> I'm not familiar with Frotage... ?  *



I have more than likely mangled the name it is French name/term, it is sex similar to breast sex but uses the cleft/valley? between the cheeks of rear end. THe male gets most of the enjoyment.


> *
> <snip>
> 
> I've never heard of Flamenco music by the way, hate whips, and fine leather to be a little harsh... <giggle> *



OK I more than likely miss spelled the name. Spanish music involving a classical guitar, lady who dances by stamping? her feet/shoes, and has hand castanets providing counter point to the sound of the shoes striking the floor and the guitar. Generally the audiance claps along with the beat of the music.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Sorn said:
			
		

> *Quick Site FYI:
> 
> I am working on a new design right now. It is going to be somewhat streamlined, as we have a ton of stuff on there that's rather dated.
> 
> So, I'd like some feedback on this idea for a status page... We currently have an online version of the guide, which is a hodgepodge of different versions and editions. Instead, I propose a page that has a chapter list, which in turn links to each chapter as we get it done. There'll be a column for each chapter that tells when it was last updated, state of completion, etc.
> 
> Any thoughts? *




I like the idea of the online verison broken down/linked into chapters. It will make if more clear to those who have joined in later rather from the beginning.


----------



## Bastoche

Sorn, I think your layout rocks! 

If you want the source file of my pdf, email me cedric@farao.org


----------



## Sorn

Thanks Bastoche... I try...

Btw, the new site design is up. I still have  some work to do, but I have to leave here now to go to my other job. I hope to have everything done by Monday. The download section has yet to be linked up, plus of course the new chapter status page. 

http://www.netbook-of-uck.net


----------



## Asher

Two quick items, and then I'll go read VVrayven's revised Prowess section at greater length.  (Thanks as usual VVrayven, for your great work!)

I. Though we talked about the idea of a general-purpose Carnal Art, I don't recall that we ever in fact hammered one out.  Here's a proposal for your review:

VETERAN'S KNACK
No associated ability score; only requirement is 3+ ranks in Prowess.  The character may use the tricks in this Art a number of times equal to their ranks in Prowess divided by three, rounding down.

3 Ranks Prowess - Muscular Control
Well-developed PC muscle.  Male characters may flex this muscle to gain +2 to their Fort saves to resist Arousal.  Female characters may flex this muscle to add +2 to their Prowess check during vaginally penetrative intercourse.  This ability continues until the character becomes Fatigued.

6 Ranks Prowess - Increased Endurance
The character adds +1 to the number of rounds spent in a Climaxed or Ecstatic state before suffering Fatigue, and +1 to the number of rounds spent in a Climaxed or Ecstatic state before suffering Exhaustion.  This ability continues for the duration of the encounter.

9 Ranks Prowess - Quick Recovery
Male characters do not suffer the normal +8 to Arousal DCs post-climax, though normal Fatigue and Exhaustion modifers still apply.  This ability is instantaneous.

9 Ranks Prowess - Multiple Orgasms
On climax, female characters shift their Arousal DC values one step down.  That is, the DC for Ecstatic is lowered to that of Climaxed, the DC for Climaxed is lowered to that of Peaked, and the DC of Peaked is lowered to that of Aroused.  This ability continues until the character becomes Exhausted.

12 Ranks Prowess - Impressive Repertoire
Add +1 to the Gratification total for each different proficiency the character uses to bring their partner to climax.  This ability lasts for the duration of the encounter.


II. I've been monkeying with the Arousal DC tables some more, and would like to once again try to sell the idea that although there is a wonderful elegance to the system of doubling each value (save the first) to get the next one up the scale, the resultant DC's have realism problems.

The primary oddity I find is that the current DCs make it much easier for a male character to spend two successive rounds in a Climaxed state than for a female character.  This runs counter to what one would expect: that a multi-orgasmic male is a rare thing indeed, while many more women are capable of a quick, almost instant return to climax (or of a longer, more drawn-out single climax).

I haven't done much testing with the proposed DC table below, but it makes an attempt to increase realism at the expense of elegance.  I've tried to retain at least a modicum of memorizability by mostly sticking to DC values divisible by 5 and 10.  Also, you'll note that I've scrapped the rule about doubling DC's to remain in a Climaxed/Ecstatic state, opting instead to simply reinstate the extra table rows for "Climaxed" and "Ecstatic".

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current\Target  None  Aroused  Peaked  Climaxed  Ecstatic
None   <12/<15  12/15  25/30  50/60  100/120
Aroused   <2/<5  2/5  15/20  30/40  60/80
Peaked   <2/<4  2/4  10/10  15/20  30/30
Climaxed   <40/<3  --/3  --/20  40/30  50/40
Ecstatic   <60/<2  --/2  --/30  --/40  60/50

Thanks y'all...


----------



## VVrayven

Asher. Great work, I must however reiteriate on the one that I came up with earilier and then was forgotten to the sea of posts. Perhaps we can combine our efforts? Ideas: Here is mine again:

Feat: Sexual Practice
Prereqs: 3 Ranks Prowess.
Benefit: Unlike other Carnal Art forms, this is a simplistic version representing long experience and self training of sexual practices. As you gain in ranks of prowess. A sexually practiced character can selected one of the abilities below at 3 ranks, 6 ranks, 9 ranks, 12 ranks, and 15 ranks.

Teasing Lover: (9 Ranks)
You can keep your partner on the edge of ecstacy. Activated after any prowess check. If you succeed in raising your partner's arousal, you may instead keep them at their current level or any level in between your successful prowess roll. If this effect is used to keep a partner in peaked status by denying them an orgasm, they must make a will save against DC 15 or suffer 1d4 temporary wisdom damage.

Sexual Expertise: (3 Ranks)
You are adept at pleasuring your partner at the expense of your own concentration. Activated as a free action. For the rest of the session you may choose to subtract a number (up to -5) from your Fortitude save to resist pleasure and add it to your prowess check (up to +5). This bonus/penalty lasts for the entire round and may be set again in the next round.

Responsive: (3 Ranks)
You can shift your effots to make your body more responisve to attentions. Activated as a free action. For the rest of the session you may choose to subtract a number (up to -5) from your prowess checks and add it to your partners prowess checks (up to +5). This bonus/penalty lasts for the entire round and may be set again in the next round.

Resist Pleasure: (6 Ranks)
Fighting off your partner's attentions at the slight expense of your own can help you last longer. For the rest of the session you may choose to subtract a number (up to -5) from your prowess checks and add it to your Fortitude saves to resist pleasure (up to +5). This bonus/penalty lasts for the entire round and may be set again in the next round.

Sexual Endurance: (3 Ranks)
You can last longer in bed than most. This ability can be selected more than once. Each time it is select ONE of the following benefits can be gained:
Withstand 2 orgasms before fatigue (male only).
Withstand Con Mod x 2 orgasms before fatigue (female only).
Withstand Con Mod x 2 orgasms before exhuastion (male only).
Withstand Con x 2 orgasms before exhaustion (female only).
Half subdual damage from orgasms while exhuasted.

Quick Withdrawl: (6 Ranks, 9 Ranks for females)
This grants a 50% chance to prevent pregnacny from intercourse by withdrawing before ejaculation or pulling away before your partner climaxes. If both partners possess this ability, the chance is increased to 75%.

Delay Orgasm (6 Ranks, 9 Ranks for males)
You can resist the urge to cliamx. Any time your fail a save to resist rising to climax (but not estascitc) you activate this ability as a free action an resist climaxing. Your status becomes peaked.

Multi-Orgasmic: (6 Ranks, females only)
And time an attempt to make you climax (or more) exceeds the target DC by 5 points or more, you instead have multiple orgasms. You will climax for 1d6 rounds suffering the effects per round and as long as your partner keeps simulating you at a DC 5. This use of the ability does not require expendature of an abilty use. However, a woman an induce a multiple orgasm at any time during climax by expending an ability use.

Quick Recovery: (6 Ranks, males only)
After becoming unable to perform after climax. A man can make a Fortitude save, DC 15, if successful, he may become arousded again as normal, though he still suffers from fatigue. This use of the ability does not require expendature of an abilty use. However, a man can instantly become ready again by expending an ability use.

I'll work on a combination tonight as I'm able. 

And, as a show of faith I'll plug your numbers in and see what comes up. <smile>

Sorn & Bastoche: AWESOME WORK! <blows a kiss to each>


----------



## Erila of Sune

All right.  Now, I haven't read the last page yet, but I'm posting this as a quick version of some basic Seduction guidelines (Note that I've managed to insert a Seduction skill of sorts without actually creating a new skill.)

The following skills can be used to try to make a character horny but NOT AROUSED.  Resolved as vs. Sense Motive check.

Bluff: You're fast-talking your way into bed, essentially, using lies and the like.

Diplomacy:  Use of flowery language, praise, etc.  More genuine than bluff.


These skills make a character Aroused but not Horny (immediately.)  These methods are tuned towards affecting the 'reptile brain.'  Success should be as per an arousal check, although use of Perform doesn't allow anything beyond the stimulation to stay aroused.

Perform (Dance):  Exotic freeform dancing and such.  A fairly artistic skill.

Perform (Seduction):  This represents knowledge of formal courtship rites and the ability to make patterns which are overly familiar appealing.  Appropriate to fertility-cults and societies which treat intercourse with a great amount of ritual.

Sexual Prowess:  Naturally.  Note that using this last method on a character not currently aroused or horny should be covered in more 


Keep in mind that the above is so rough as to not even really be complete.  More as skill uses are developed.


----------



## Asher

VVrayven: So sorry!  I forgot that you'd already done that work on a non-specialist Carnal Art.  Now that you reposted it, of course, I remember.  Well, as with everything I post, take whatever you like and use it, and scrap the rest.

As for the Arousal DC table, I think the main issue we need to decide on is not whether to use my proposed values or the originals, but whether or not to change the originals at all.  If we do change the table, then your Java script will permit us to tweak the actual values as much as we like.  I don't have much confidence in my own numbers being ideal, as your script will probably show.

I suppose what I'm thinking is that our current DC table attempts to be a reference to which players rarely need to refer, because it's so easy to remember how the numbers scale from left to right.  That's a good thing, but I can't help thinking that a DC table should *first* provide desired results, and only secondarily strive for easy memorization.  If we provide a tabular reference, it doesn't seem unreasonable to expect players to have to refer to it.  Just my $0.02.


----------



## Sorn

Ok, I am back from Easter break. I just finished adding Bastoche's great summary to the site. Everything is broken down by chapter, complete with date and status. 

http://www.netbook-of-uck.net/online.htm

With this done, I will now go and add the preliminary clothing list, plus the mundane equipment list from one of the older "web enhancements". There are also a few things I can add as preliminary, such as the racial information, which is pretty much all flavor-text anyway.


----------



## Bastoche

Awesome work!!!

Two comments: about double entry on feats, one suggestion was from VVrayven and the other from Gez IIRC. Only the prereq. differs IIRC. About the prowess check, there is a more up to date version (on this very page I think). You should it. The post begin with 

"As promised:

THE PROWESS SKILL v1.3"

 I haven't updated that on my file.


----------



## Sorn

Thanks...

I thought the 1.3 revision was already part of the file, but I guess I had too much Easter Candy. Anyway, I'll get right on that and get it fixed.


----------



## Xeriar

Just a thought on racial notes - Maenads are female Satyrs, not nymphs.  The old D&D ecology had nymphs reproducing with humans with 18 or better charisma, IIRC.


----------



## VVrayven

Just a quick note: The Tech Suitability on the web page needs to take out the exotic prof from the list.


----------



## Sorn

Thanks VVrayven... missed that one. But it's fixed now. 

Looking at the Status Conditions, this looks pretty much done to me. Should we move the status of that section to "Finished"? I don't see anything that would impact the status conditions, unless we do a major revamp of the core mechanics. 

I have some ideas for some of the minor areas (Sexual Alignment, Diseases, Equipment, Prostitution), so I'll hopefully have some writeups for those sections soon. Since they aren't really dependant on the core mechanics, there shouldn't be a need for too many revisions.


----------



## Asher

Back from number-crunching with some additional thoughts on the Arousal DC values table.

After some testing, I've been persuaded to convert back to the original system of doubling one value to get the next higher one.  Those core DC values are sound and have the added benefit of being memorizable.  The only areas that needed to be fixed were the extreme top and bottom of the scale.

Basically, it should be unusual for an Aroused or Peaked character to become unaroused while Prowess checks continue to be made against him or her.  Because the system of resolving an encounter round by round involves so many individual checks, however, even failure on a result of 1 can be a significant statistic: a 5% chance of the character becoming unaroused with each roll of the die.  That's too high a figure for male characters (barring impotence, which should be handled with a modifier anyway), and seems like a plausible figure for female characters.  Thus the "low end" of the table should probably read:

Current\Target  None   Aroused  Peaked
None  <13/<16  13/16  26/32
Aroused  <1/<2  1/2  14/18
Peaked  <1/<1  1/1  2/2

As for the high end of the table (ie, achieving and sustaining climax), the problem in my view was that the values produced far more multi-orgasmic males than females -- a real oddity.  Rather than extending the table, however, I suggest that we simply modify the existing rule for females.  Currently, to calculate the DC value for additional rounds spent Climaxed or Ecstatic, you use the values for a Peaked character and double them.  I propose that we double the Peaked values for male characters, but multiply by 1.5 for female characters.  This produces DCs of 32/30 for additional rounds Climaxed, and 64/60 for additional rounds in Ecstasy.

Another proposal: I find the Fort save versus arousal to be nearly useless in most cases.  Rather than setting the Fort save DC at the value of the partner's Prowess check, I suggest that the Fort save DC be 10 + the number by which the partner's Prowess check exceeds the required DC to raise the character's Arousal.  For example, an Aroused male character whose partner makes a Prowess check at 19 (exceeding the DC of 14 by five points) would have to make his Fort save at DC 15 rather than DC 19.  With the current system, it seems unrealistically difficult to resist arousal checks, and this alternate system offsets that problem.

Yet another proposal: Should the +8 modifier to DC for a post-climax male really last out the full 10 minutes even if his partner successfully arouses him again before that time expires?  If it continues to last the entire time, that character is sitting pretty, nearly impervious to Prowess checks made by ordinary mortals for several minutes after becoming Aroused again.  I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to apply the +8 DC modifier only until the character becomes successfully Aroused again, and then revert to normal modifiers for Fatigue/Exhaustion?

Still yet another proposal: Currently, we state that the Aroused and Peaked conditions last for five minutes (one minute in inappropriate situations).  Does this mean that a character who approaches the brink of orgasm and then stops all sexual activity will still be on the verge of coming nearly five minutes later???  Why don't we set a more reasonable duration, such as one minute or even less?

More updates as they occur to me...


----------



## Sorn

I posted a writeup for prostitution on the site. I did some online research yesterday, plus I bought a book called Sex in History, which I am reading right now. Any insight from that might change the writeup.

It's not quite done yet, but any suggestions are certainly appreciated. 

If anyone has any writeups for any of the other chapters that aren't affected by the core mechanics, feel free to email them to me and I'll post them on the site. This gives everyone the chance to read them at their leisure and we can discuss them here once we get to that point in the development phase.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Sorn: Here is web page titled Hooker Heroes that has some info you may find useful.

Hooker Heroes
http://wondersmith.com/heroes/index.htm

At different times Courtesans came from below the Noble class, will research some to prove my point. I do agree about the Charisma minimum.


----------



## VVrayven

Alright boys, <puts on her _lead writer_ glasses>

I hate to do it but we do have to harp on some of the "established" core mechanics. I'm been running some tests with my new java machine and things just don't make sense. Asher has a lot of good points.

1) About resistance rolls. Resistence does next to nill for males. To be cheesy, it is mostly futile. Once a person has 5 ranks in Prowess, that fort save means just about nothing. This isn't just a case of defense being outstripped by offensive. It does help at really basic sex, like commoner 1 vs commoner 1, but this guide isn't about that. And for females? With a base Fort Save DC 20 to resist a minimal orgasm?! Nope, she's never going to hit that, and if she is leveled enough to do so, she is probably facing an opponent or lover that will require her to get a DC 30 or 40 Fort save. Resisting doesn't do much under our current rules.

Asher has made some suggestions:

His Idea: Fort Save DC equal to 10 + Exceed value of the prowess check. Not a bad idea, but kind of time consuming. I like the concept and it keeps power of resisting equal to the power of prowess (roughly).

My Idea 1: Subtract the Fort Save from the prowess check. More math yes. It also makes resisting actually do something. Perhaps this is a little extreme.

My Idea 2: Allow a Fort Save against a static DC by condition, for instance, a DC 15 to resist peak, a DC 25 to resist orgasm, or something like that. The problem here is that a really good lover cannot influence the chart.

We need a good and fast way to handle this in which resisting pleasure is not just a throw away roll with almost no chance to succeed (or zero chance to succeed once your hit prowess rolls of 20+).

2) About loosing arousal. This is still a problem, even with the new chart. Men loose arousal about 10% of all sexual encounters in our current system. Women "go dry and loose arousal" a lot more often as well. I think that once you are physically aroused it shouldn't be brought down except by expiration of time limit or by orgasm. I say the charts should be capped so that any roll resides to aroused. Discussion?

3) About men and multiple orgasms. This is a problem. However, I'm much more inclineded towards looking at this as an extended orgasm rather than multiple ones, just use the same procedure but change flavor text. I would like to hear some more input on dropping the female DCs to 1.5 instead of 2 for concurrent orgasm rounds.

4) About the -8 for 10 minutes. Asher is absolutely right. Under the current system, all this does is allow the man 40% to get erect and there after have a far greater chance of loosing his erection again. This just isn't the way it works. If she gets him up again, he stays up. If we do my suggestion of capping the charts, however, so that men can't loose arousal... Then this rule works out, it just becomes 40% harder to arouse him initially and then it is more difficult to make him climax if you do get him going (which is in my experience exactly was DOES happen .

5) Length of status conditions. I agree that Peaked should only last 10 rounds or one minute. Comments?

That's it. I'm going to play with some numbers in my java scripter and see what happens. I'll have results soon, boys. 

<hugs to all>


----------



## Death By Surfeit

*Revised Prowess Check Rules*

Wotcher,

Sorry for my sporadic input - my internet access is a little eccentric at the moment. I suppose I have dropped by at an opportune time, however, as VVrayven has kindly summarised all the issues - I'll do my best to resolve as many as I can.

1) The opposition of the two is very difficult to balance. I'll condone VVrayven's second method, with the addition that we can get around the difficulty of static DC / increasing levels by opening up CA maneouvres that boost the DC for resisting pleasure. This would be an acceptable compromise in my opinion.

2) I concur with VVrayven: maintain the original Arousal DCs, but do not allow a drop of more than one Arousal level at once – a Peaked character cannot instantaneously lose all Arousal. Post-Climax is an exception to this rule.

3) I was of a similar mindset. Regarding VVrayven & Asher’s comments, I would normally advocate a lower DC for successive rounds, but I was concerned that a particularily good partner could keep their bedmate in continuous Ecstasy or Climax until they pass out. At epic level, perhaps this is allowable, but in the meantime some limits had to be placed.

In the meantime, however, I’ve concocted a superior version. Basically, the DC increases according to a chart as the character is kept in Climax or Ecstasy – the first failed DC indicates post-Climax fatigue and Arousal drop. Gratification rules could be linked to this, possibly.

4) The chart cap addresses this problem to a reasonable degree, although I am reluctant to naysay against losing Arousal altogether as a strict rule. I would advocate imposing a –8 until Arousal is gained, then dropping it to normal fatigue mods.

5) Status condition length – I’ll second, err, third that motion.

All in all quite a few modifications. I thought I’d recompile the Prowess DC Table together with an Extended Climax Table (see above) for the benefit of whoever feels like recompiling the Prowess Check v1.4 – see below.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- 3/4 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 4/5 16/20 32/40

Table X-XX2: Extended Climax DCs
Round – Climax DC//Grat – Ecstasy DC//Grat
1st 16/20**//1 32/40**//2
2nd 24/25//2 48/50//4
3rd 32/30//3 64/60//6
4th 40/35//4 80/70//8
5th 48/40//5 96/80//10*

*Repeat numerical pattern ad infinitum. Numbers on left are male DCs, on right female DCs.
**Typical values for arising from Peaked.
Gratification values are cumulative – take those from each round of Climax or Ecstasy.

There. Everything’s not yet balanced and very much open to feedback, so by all means post whatever you wish to say.

Before I go, thanks to all of you for posting your comments (sorry I couldn’t address you in turn), especially to Sorn for getting the site back up and running. This may just be me, but the downloads section could do with some clarification of which download contains what – separating the different guides and the peripheral stuff would also help.

Cheers all,

DbS


----------



## Asher

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *His Idea: Fort Save DC equal to 10 + Exceed value of the prowess check. Not a bad idea, but kind of time consuming. I like the concept and it keeps power of resisting equal to the power of prowess (roughly).
> 
> My Idea 1: Subtract the Fort Save from the prowess check. More math yes. It also makes resisting actually do something. Perhaps this is a little extreme.
> 
> My Idea 2: Allow a Fort Save against a static DC by condition, for instance, a DC 15 to resist peak, a DC 25 to resist orgasm, or something like that. The problem here is that a really good lover cannot influence the chart.*



The method I proposed seems more cumbersome than it actually turned out to be when I tried it.  Calculating the Exceed value and adding 10 was a pretty quick mental math operation.  However, it does produce the odd effect of making Fort saves to resist climax easier than Fort saves to resist Arousal or Peaked status.  I like both of your alternate proposals and would endorse whichever of them you find works better as you continue to test the system.



> *I think that once you are physically aroused it shouldn't be brought down except by expiration of time limit or by orgasm. I say the charts should be capped so that any roll resides to aroused. Discussion?*



Yep, sounds like a good idea to me.



> *I'm much more inclined towards looking at this as an extended orgasm rather than multiple ones, just use the same procedure but change flavor text.*



Yes, I appreciate the distinction between a longer orgasm and multiple ones, and changing the flavor text is probably the right way to handle it.



> *About the -8 for 10 minutes ... This just isn't the way it works. If she gets him up again, he stays up. If we do my suggestion of capping the charts, however, so that men can't loose arousal... Then this rule works out, it just becomes 40% harder to arouse him initially and then it is more difficult to make him climax if you do get him going (which is in my experience exactly what DOES happen .*



Here I'll have to take your word for it.  So are you saying that Fatigue/Exhaustion modifiers should affect the DC to *increase* arousal, but not to sustain the current level?  If so, then that makes sense to me.

Once again, VVrayven, thanks for your incisive critique and especially for your work in testing these proposed systems!


----------



## Asher

*Re: Revised Prowess Check Rules*



			
				Death By Surfeit said:
			
		

> *I concur with VVrayven: maintain the original Arousal DCs, but do not allow a drop of more than one Arousal level at once – a Peaked character cannot instantaneously lose all Arousal. Post-Climax is an exception to this rule.*



That is indeed an improvement, but it still strikes me as a real oddity that an Aroused character engaged in intercourse could suddenly revert to Unaroused status, short of some unusual occurrence.  Even with your revised DC table, the DC to maintain Arousal is still 3/4, so we'll continue to see that phenomenon quite often -- unless I'm misinterpreting something, as I've been known to do before.



> *I’ve concocted a superior version. Basically, the DC increases according to a chart as the character is kept in Climax or Ecstasy – the first failed DC indicates post-Climax fatigue and Arousal drop. Gratification rules could be linked to this, possibly.*



I like the look of those DC increments, DbS.  I'll be interested to see how they test out.

Nice to see you back around here, too.


----------



## VVrayven

Heya guys.

Thanks for the feeback Asher and DbS. I'm going to get working on 1.4 now. It should be posted before my bedtime (yeah, whenever that is! )

As for the integration of new ideas:

I love the new climax chart. I like the idea that we no longer diffieniat between a previous round spend in climax or ectasy, that solves a lot of problems. I'll be using it, minor tweak to the java script.

I'm going to test two versions of the DC table. One with arousal loss capped at one per round, and one with the arousal loss as impossible and then we'll talk about it.  (and make version 1.45 I'm sure).

Status condition length with now be implemented though it will have little if any effect.

NOTE TO SORN: Change the length of Peaked Status to one minute please. 

As for fixed DC resisting... Okay. I'm going to go with this and we'll play with them from there.

Condition Resisting             DC
Arousal                              5
Peaked                              10
Climax                                15
Esctasy                              25

Not sure how these will pan out. For instance, I think a basic male needs at least a 25% chance to hold off climax and a 50% to hold of peak. I'll try the numbers at 5 higher too (after all we are building the guide for PCs).

That's it for now.


----------



## VVrayven

<yawn> Okay! I've done it. My Javascript runs very very well now. <rubs eyes> Anyway, here is a breif run down of the AI.

The Male resists becoming peaked or climaxing. The Female pleasures herself during intercourse until she has had ONE climax, and then helps the male. The program runs until the male has had one climax, or the female passes out. I'll run some more detailed ones with multiple male climaxes (which the program can do ) after we decide on a DC table.

The program makes use of the new gratification table (which by the way completly removes the exceed number, thank God!) I also have adopted the following Resist static DCs:

Resist Arousal: DC 10
Resist Peaked:  DC 15
Resist Climax:  DC 20
Resist Esctasy: DC 25

These are good numbers. I'll defend it if needed, but trust me, these work for most low level, and mid level encounters. High level should be balanced by carnal arts as well. 

I'm just going to print the program results straight. These show averages over 10 million sexual encounter runs. These runs use zero rank commoners as test subjects.

Using DbS's numbers:

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- 3/4 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 4/5 16/20 32/40

We get the following:
Average Total Time:           44.032278
Average Foreplay Time:        28.105424
Average Intercourse Time:     15.926854
Female Climax Percentage:     53.849199999999996%
Male Climax Percentage:       100.0%
Average Female Orgasms        0.848426
Average Male Orgasms          1.0
Average Female Arousal Loss   8.158269
Average Male Arousal Loss     7.032318
Average Female Gratification  0.848426
Average Male Gratification    1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status 0.538492
Average Male Fatigue Status   1.0

As you can see, these numbers are promising, except for a few small problems...

1) Average intercourse time is about 1.5 minutes with foreplay being 2.8 minutes. Livable but not too good.

2) Females climax about 53% of the time, not bad for zero rankers working with Hard Focus.

3) Females usually go from Aroused to None an average of EIGHT times during and encounter and Males loose their erection an average of seven times a sexual session. This cannot be tolerated.

Now, there are a few fixes to these problems. The first idea is to cut the arousal loss from the table. Hence this DC table:

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- -/- 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 4/5 16/20 32/40

Produces the following results:

Average Total Time:           19.056723
Average Foreplay Time:        3.130066
Average Intercourse Time:     15.926657
Female Climax Percentage:     66.1671%
Male Climax Percentage:       100.0%
Average Female Orgasms        0.661671
Average Male Orgasms          1.0
Average Female Arousal Loss   0.618565
Average Male Arousal Loss     0.0
Average Female Gratification  0.661671
Average Male Gratification    1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status 0.661671
Average Male Fatigue Status   1.0

These numbers aren't too bad. I'll let everyone mull them over because I'm really really sleeping and need backrub... <sigh> Anyway, one other idea is to allow the man a Fort Save DC 5 to avoid the drop from Aroused to None and keep the same table DbS uses. This will produce:

Average Total Time:           36.167861
Average Foreplay Time:        20.189997
Average Intercourse Time:     15.977864
Female Climax Percentage:     53.9939%
Male Climax Percentage:       100.0%
Average Female Orgasms        0.602328
Average Male Orgasms          1.0
Average Female Arousal Loss   8.195099
Average Male Arousal Loss     1.412101
Average Female Gratification  0.602328
Average Male Gratification    1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status 0.539939
Average Male Fatigue Status   1.0

These aren't too bad either, of course we still have the loose of 1.4 erections on average for a standard virile young man... I'll hear disucssion now (in the morning rather). Hope you guys like the java thingy. <yawn> I'm being carried to bed now so g'night all and happy debating! <hugz>  zzzzz....


----------



## Sorn

SindbadBleu: Thanks. I've seen that site, and got a lot of ideas from there. As far as courtesans go... you are absolutely right: they did come (predominantly) from non-noble solcial classes. However, I think the Aristocrat NPC class fits their description best. 

On pg. 38 of the DMG, we find:



> Aristocrats are not only the well-born, but also the wealthy and influential people in the world.




I made some revisions to clarify this. 

VVrayven:

Excellent job again. The peaked duration has been changed in the status conditions on the website.

Personally, I prefer the middle chart (the one with the arousal loss removed). I think that once things are going, arousal will only be lost under extreme circumstances (cat jumping on your back, parents walking in, etc.). However, those circumstances usually take precedence over any further arousal attemps (i.e. trying to yank the cat of your back, putting a sock over your erection in the case of parents). 

Again, thanks for your hard work on this.

Edit: Just as a thought, how about we add some of the results of your Java widget in an appendix? Sword and Fist had a statistical breakdown of combat, so a similar breakdown would be nice to show people we actually tested those rules.


----------



## Bastoche

A note.

I will be away for 3-4 weeks. See you in may!


----------



## Sorn

We'll miss ya Bastoche!

On a side note, I added some more material to the Online Guide. I wrote preliminaries for Sexual Orientation and PHB Alignment. I also added the spells and PrC's from the 0.5 version as reference material. I'll be adding more things here and there over the next few days.


----------



## VVrayven

Warning! Long Post! <giggle>

Sorn: Love the idea of a stat section in the appendix. Great idea! <blows a kiss>

Bastoche: Bye! <big wave> We'll miss you!

I have a new solution that I think everyone should (I hope) be happy with).

We will use the following table:
Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- 3/4 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 4/5 16/20 32/40

Should there be any situation in which a character goes from any physical arousal condition 

to none, they are allow a Fort Save to remain Aroused. The DC for this roll is set by 

circumstance.

DC 0 - During Intercourse
DC 5 - During Oral or Masturbation
DC 10 - During Other Foreplay
DC 15 - Unusual circumstances (parents walking in)
DC 20 - "I have just be stabbed by a sword!"

This means that a DC 0 (instant success under normal sex) kills all chance of an erection 

loss (or the girl "drying up") during sex. I could make the FEMALE numbers all a 5 DC 

higher. Might be a little more realistic that way. I'll post both runs.

Note: This should only be used to resist all arousal loss. NO reisting loosing peak or 

climax status. 

Okay, using the (male = female) method:

Average Total Time:           19.055251
Average Foreplay Time:        3.125912
Average Intercourse Time:     15.929339
Female Climax Percentage:     53.877399999999994%
Male Climax Percentage:       100.0%
Average Female Orgasms        0.538774
Average Male Orgasms          1.0
Average Female Arousal Loss   0.0
Average Male Arousal Loss     0.0
Average Female Gratification  0.538774
Average Male Gratification    1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status 0.538774
Average Male Fatigue Status   1.0

And using the (female reists DC +5) method:

Average Total Time:           22.043997
Average Foreplay Time:        6.118819
Average Intercourse Time:     15.925178
Female Climax Percentage:     53.92829999999999%
Male Climax Percentage:       100.0%
Average Female Orgasms        0.539283
Average Male Orgasms          1.0
Average Female Arousal Loss   1.529986
Average Male Arousal Loss     0.0
Average Female Gratification  0.539283
Average Male Gratification    1.0
Average Female Fatigue Status 0.539283
Average Male Fatigue Status   1.0

I'll go ahead a post a few more now. These are truncated for space reasons. This assumes the 

male and female are equal partners and we are using the male=female resist DCs. This also 

assumes they always use their full bonus, try to climax each other as fast as possible 

(after the women has had one) and stop after the male climaxes...

Using a (Prowess +5, Fort +2):
Average Intercourse Time:     7.69194
Female Climax Percentage:     94.599%
Average Female Orgasms        1.298199
Average Female Gratification  1.501529

Using a (Prowess +10, Fort +4, Con 12):
Average Intercourse Time:     5.247613
Female Climax Percentage:     95.21889999999999%
Average Female Orgasms        1.841612
Average Female Gratification  2.585227
Average Female Fatigue Status 0.637523

Using a (Prowess +15, Fort +7, Con 14):
Average Intercourse Time:     4.020147
Female Climax Percentage:     95.5584%
Male Climax Percentage:       100.0%
Average Female Orgasms        2.222768
Average Female Gratification  3.666825
Average Male Gratification    1.145349
Average Female Fatigue Status 0.347559
Average Male Fatigue Status   1.0

And just a special little treat. Here is a master +20(+12 Fort) going up against a +0 farm 

girl (God, I'd love to be her):

Average Total Time:            22.269651
Average Foreplay Time:         1.600099
Average Intercourse Time:      20.669552
Female Climax Percentage:      98.17630000000001%
Male Climax Percentage:        22.0048%
Average Female Orgasms         12.035412
Average Male Orgasms           0.220048
Average Female Gratification   24.031139
Average Male Gratification     0.220048
Average Female Fatigue Status  2.584652
Average Male Fatigue Status    0.220048
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 78.4756%

And just one more thing to add. It is not possible for two commoners +0 to go until they 

pass out. The penalties are just too great and they can NEVER achieve climax passed a 

certain point. (This is good, in my eyes). However, with a few ranks, I can edit the AI so 

that they go until someone passes out. 

Average Total Time:            210.6153
Average Foreplay Time:         7.50303
Average Intercourse Time:      203.11227
Female Climax Percentage:      100.0%
Male Climax Percentage:        100.0%
Average Female Orgasms         10.57845
Average Male Orgasms           4.9929
Average Female Gratification   12.21953
Average Male Gratification     5.75384
Average Female Fatigue Status  1.85648
Average Male Fatigue Status    2.99627
Average Female Pass-Out Chance 0.373%
Average Male Pass-Out Chance   99.627%

I'm not sure how I feel about these numbers overall. I'd like to hear some discussion now on 

this thing we have made. I'm going to nit-pick through a couple of the above rounds to see 

if there is something that can be tweaked. Perhaps if I shift the AI around a little... 

Hmmm... <puts on her thinking cap>


----------



## Sorn

<catches kiss> Thanks  We have the data, might as well use it. 

The new numbers look good. Since you have your JAVA gadget, I'd say you'll be the main designer for this part and we'll let you tweak the numbers. We can all read the output, and if anyone sees any discrepancies, they can let you know. Other than that, let me know when you think we have the optimal values and I'll get things onto the site. 

One quick question regarding commoners passing out... in the data output, Male Pass-Out chance is 99.7%, while Femal Pass-Out chance is 0.3%. Having the male pass out just about all the time, but the woman still being good to go seems a little odd. I mean, yeah, I might be tired after sex, but so is my partner.


----------



## Liquid Snake

*Great Work!*

I've been reading your guide and this boards and first of all I would like to congratulate you on such an impressive work.

Now...I have a question, what exactly makes a masterwork dildo masterwork?   It's a little difficult for me to imagine one. A magic dildo? Well sure, I can imagine that. In fact you should have several magic dildos (eventually, I know you're not paying attention to that section right now). A _mage hand_ spell would make an excellent vibrator, don't you think?

Now in another sucject, so far you don't have any special rape rules. I suggest that when you do you incorporate them, you use  grapple rules and define the appropiate difficulties on Prowess skill checks. Although I could imagine that a successful Intimidate skill (or several) would force a NPC into submission.

Lastly, you don't see any problems with that 22.0048% of Male orgasm in the Master/Farm Girl encounter? Maybe you should consider a special rule about lousy sex (but with orgasms) for men with totally inexperienced and motionless women.

Keep up the great work!


----------



## Alzrius

Liquid Snake had some good points, so I just want to throw out another question from the peanut gallery:

How much of this will be OGC? I can see other publishers wanting to reference this from time to time, though admittedly not often.


----------



## VVrayven

<yawn> Wow! Two newcomers. <yawn... blink...> and questions too! <rubs eyes> 



> How much of this will be OGC? I can see other publishers wanting to reference this from time to time, though admittedly not often.




I believe we intend on the entire mechanics and rules sections being OGC. Note I haven't asked anyone about this, but that is the assumption I think. Second. I don't think we plan on publishing offically, or maybe we do. DbS and Sorn are the people to ask about that. 

Liquid Snake: Cute name. I loved Sniper Wold myself.  I'll try to answer you as best I can, but I'm really sleepy! So watch out!

Dildos: Didn't write it. I'll work with it as we get to it. I guess a masterwork is smoother, better build, more lifelike. 

On Rape and NC: we have yet to tackle this though we have touched on it. We will have a few bried mechanics (it is a complete guide) and maybe an eassy or two. If you want to see some of my brainwrackings about hentai stuff, talk to me off forum and on private e-mail.

As for the poor farm girl... The guy isn't trying for himself. If he was, he could use his own prowess to aid himself in the last crucial rounds before she passes out. That little write up was just so I could show the power of a +20 prowess vs a know-nothing. That make sense? Hope so, like I said, sleep....

<yawn> Night boys. VVrayven sleepy...



> <catches kiss> Thanks




Anytime, hun.


----------



## Gez

*Pops out of hiding*



			
				Sorn said:
			
		

> *On a side note, I added some more material to the Online Guide. I wrote preliminaries for Sexual Orientation and PHB Alignment.*




This reminds me I had wrotten some stuff about this when I was working on classes (since there was a blurb for each race, why not for each class as well). Unfortunately, the rules changed while I was working on it (no more sex tricks), and so I had stopped, however the fluff may be kept.

See this. It's a bit old, so easily forgotten, hence I repost it. No need to redo the wheel, huh ?


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## Phantomwriterl

Hey, I was just looking over the document on prestige classes, and for the beguiler it mentions Corrupt Lover and Break Victim as subclasses of the Prowess skill.  It also mentions Pleasure Victim for the Ravager.

As these don't appear on the explanation of the skill, i was wondering how those sub-sections were supposed to work.


----------



## Sorn

Always nice to come back from the weekend and find some interesting posts here... 

Anyway...

MW Dildos: I concur with VVrayven... very well made dildos can qualify as masterwork. If you look at modern-day ones, there are highly expensive glass (or pyrex or something) ones that go for $200+. So, think hardened glass dildos, highly polished and smooth dildos, special material dildos (mithril, adamantine, etc.) and so forth. 

OGC: all mechanics will be OGC. As it stands, most of the fluff will be too. If we get our hands on some fiction, this might not be OGC, depending on the writer's wishes. All artwork will remain copyright of its creator(s). There are no plans of publishing a print edition. I doubt there will ever be one. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see something I worked on in my FLGS. But, just judging on the treatment the Book of Vile Darkness received in some game stores (hidden behind the counter, shrinkwrapped on the shelf, etc), I shudder to think where this baby would end up. The only other book in this niche market (EA: Nymphology) was deemed to be profitable as a pdf download, but not viable in a print edition. 

Class notes: thanks Gez, I already have an entry in the TOC, but now I actually have material to go in there. I'll put your stuff on the site in the next few hours.

Prowess Skill & PrC's: Phantomwriterl, Corrupt Lover and Break Victim used to be 'Sex Tricks'. Each rank of Prowess used to grant a new Sex Trick (like Perform does for art forms). We did away with those in favor of a proficiency system. Some of them have survived in the form of Carnal Arts or have been reconciled into said proficiencies. 

The PrC's I put on the site were simply copies of the earlier version(s). They were spread across 4 different files, so I wanted to have a complete listing for people to go over. I haven't done any editing on them, so there's a lot of things that are rather obsolete right now. I'll probably do some work on them in the next few days to get them closer to the new rules.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Sorn: I like the way the web page is laid out, very clear and concise.

I may have missed this discussion but since their is PrC that be transgenered to change gendered. If you have fully functional hermaphrodite with DC targets does one use, male or female?

I understand that when one is change gendered to the other sex one use the new genders DC, but what happens when you have both? Effects arousal and prowess checks.

I understand it may still be too early to disucss such matters. 

By the way anyone developed a hermaphroditic races yet?


----------



## Sorn

Thanks SinbadBleu.

PrC discussion is still a long way off. As said, I only wanted to material to be accessible in one spot without having to download 4 different files. 

However, the hermaphrodite question is a valid one for the current core mechanics discussion. 

Since a hermaphrodite has both genders, I'd rule that they can pick whichever is better for them at the time. 

I am not too familiar with hermaphrodites, but there could be other potential modifiers as well, ranging from social penalties once their status is discovered ("Whoa... that's not supposed to be between your legs... I'm outta here.") to physical problems (not sure whether their genitals are fully functional, etc.)

Of course those issues are non-existant for people who can shapechange between sexes, but rather only for natural, non-shifting hermaphrodites.


----------



## Vaxalon

There's reality, and then there's fantasy.

Most real-world herms have one set of functioning organs, and one set that just sits there.  The vast majority of them are really women with unusually large clitorises.

In a fantasy setting, however, it's perfectly fine to have both.


----------



## SinbadBleu

Sorn: Well ok but if a herm is fully functional in both sets of sexual organs then the libido will be increased, why due the increased levels of testosterone(sp), female oviaries(sp) secrete testy and so do the tecticles. So arousing a Herm would be easier in my mind.

Vaxalon:As for which sex a herm is....well one has to look to the x factors to truely tell. As they say in Singapore just because she looks female does not mean genetically she is. 

Most if not all RW herms have/are genetic abnormallities like XXX, or XXY. Or it could be the sexual triggering defferentiating mechanism is get properly applied in utero.

By the way there are more herms out there than you can believe, at birth a decision was made, most times wrong, and surgery used to "Correct" the mistake.


----------



## Sorn

I understand... however, even with two functional sets of genitalia, is the impact that great to warrant an additional entry in the table? I think giving them the choice of whichever modifier is better for them is the easier way to go. 

Besides, even if both sets are functional, this does not mean that they are working in a reproductive sense. E.g. a hermaphrodite might have a rudimentary penis, that is functional in the sense that it can become erect as well as a working female reproductive system. Does said herm have the potential to both father and bear children? Can he inseminate herself and effectively create a clone? I have never heard of anything like that. Given that, while a herm's hormone system might have some serious issues, but should not affect our charts. 

We can't provide rules for every possible situation, and I think this will be one of them. What we can do is provide some information (such as the "pick whichever is better") and how to apply it to hermaphrodites.


----------



## Death By Surfeit

*New topic soon enough....*

Wotcher,

Thankyou for the contributions from the peanut gallery; it’s nice to be kept on one’s toes.

Alzrius: I cannot speak for everyone on matters of policy, but I’ll do my best to express the majority sentiment. This is a community effort, and as such the mechanics are treated as OGC as and when they are finished. We have no current plans to publish officially, but it is certainly an option; upon completion, we would like to gauge public interest, and consider doing a published copy should the means become available.

Hermaphrodism: Not too much of an outstanding issue – the majority is common sense. If necessary, I can compile a few rules here and there; I should think the area best covered by a sidebar in the section describing sexuality, and will devote my mind to it when the time comes.

Java girl: Thankyou for your extended java delvings; they have resolved a lot of the probability questions I had. The balance issues are pretty well sorted out (and I like your resist DCs), and although men fare better at lower levels and women better at higher ones, this is all too realistic.

Change to tables: drop from Aroused to nothing is possible only on a critical failure, followed by a fail on the ‘resist Arousal drop’ DC table as done by VVrayven.

The singular problem outstanding, in my opinion at least, is duration. I would like to propose a simple enough solution: ALL Arousal checks are assumed to take 1 full minute to do. In the scope of conventional sex, matters are thus worked out at the end of every minute. Checks CAN be made as a full-round action, but at a –2 penalty.

Whaddaya think? It’s a rather primitive solution, but seems workable, and is the only one to spring to mind.

Comments on the above, any other outstanding issues, or expressions of approval for current system, please post. A new topic will be started very soon, but the core mechanics will have to be finalised first. That’s it from me for now.

Cheers,


----------



## VVrayven

Hiya DbS! 

Okay. I'm glad you like my stuff. Note that people almost NEVER fail a DC zero so arousal drop is almost never going to happen. Just making sure you caught that.

As for the durations. Hold for just a sec before we do anything drastic like x10 the duration-time-o-meter.

I have thought a lot about this too and have come to the following conclusions:

I'd say in modern society, people have 1-2 ranks in prowess... This means that sexual intercourse itself lasts about 10-12 rounds on average by our system which is only about a minute. This is a problem. As the average is closer to 5-6 minutes.

Now, we can go with x10 thingy, meaning that a prowess check takes a minutes to resolve. This will make average people with a rank 4 match present day stats almost perfectly.

I want to present a few things that will happen though: If we switch to a full minute action:

Only one roll in a minute right? That's ten rounds and we remove our sexual combat angle (not that I mind, just throwing out the ideas).

This also means that peaked lasts only 1 minute, which makes more sense, brink of orgasm is sustainable but disappears quickly...

And last, what happens if you are intterupted? Does the roll fail all together? If 9 of the 10 rounds were carried out is all lost? If we are presenting NC or grappling rules... How do these coinenside with our minute rules? Do you need a successful pin for 10 rounds to make a prowess check?

Just some end notes: I think the minute = prowess check is a GOOD idea. I think we should use it. I think using prowess as a full round action needs to be a FEAT and then it allows rolls at a -4 penalty. And note that Rank 5s take 210 segments on average for the man to wear himself out to pass-out stage. In minutes that would be around 2.5 hours of straight sex and foreplay, both oral and the usual with 5 orgasms, average of .5 hours between climaxes...


----------



## VVrayven

*Oh NO!*

From the news:

Valar Project Inc, headed up by WotC's Anthony Valterra, is planning to release the Book of Erotic Fantasy in October 2003 - "the first roleplaying game, compatible with the best selling Dungeons & Dragons fantasy roleplaying game, that deals directly with sex and sexuality." [Note - I have received confirmation from Anthony Valterra that this is genuine].

For Immediate Release Contact: Anthony Valterra
Valar Project, Inc.
1909 N. 47th St.
Seattle, WA 98103
206.675.8552

FANTASY SEX ROLEPLAYING GAME RELEASES OCTOBER 2003! 
Valar Project, Inc. to release the “Book of Erotic Fantasy” in October 2003 - the first roleplaying game, compatible with the best selling Dungeons & Dragons ™ fantasy roleplaying game, that deals directly with sex and sexuality.

Seattle, WA, April 28th ? A generation of fantasy roleplaying game enthusiasts grew up wondering what the elf maiden looked like without those gauzy robes. They read “Lord of the Rings™” and fantasized about Arwen™. They read Conan™ and wondered if other fantasy heroes compared to the prowess of the legendary barbarian. In 2003 all the curiosity about sex in the realms of fantasy will be satisfied.

Valar Project, Inc. will be the first company to take on the subject of sex in the world of elves and dragons. “The gaming community is mostly college age and up”, says Anthony Valterra, one of the founders of Valar Project. “For years the subject of sex in a fantasy world has been whispered about in private or the subject of Internet speculation. We are simply taking a subject that everyone is curious about and bringing it to life.”

Valar Project is sparing no expense in creating a product that is innovative in its design and in its imagery. All the images in the book use live models digitally enhanced from photographs. This process allows for realistic images of elves, fairies, nymphs and other standard fantasy characters. Readers will be captivated by this provocative look at the erotic side of medieval fantasy.
For Immediate Release Contact: Anthony Valterra
Valar Project, Inc.
1909 N. 47th St.
Seattle, WA 98103
206.675.8552

TIP SHEET

• Dungeons & Dragons™ was created 30 years ago and has 1.6 million players on a monthly basis. It is one of the most recognized brands in America with over 90% aided recognition.

• One of the founders of Valar Project Inc. is Anthony Valterra who, for the last three years, has worked in various capacities on the Dungeons & Dragons™ brand for Wizards of the Coast™.

• Anthony Valterra helped found a fetish club (Oregon Guild Activists of S/M) and an occult church (Church of the Blood Red Moon) as well as engaging in a wide variety of other unusual adventures. He has used these personal experiences to guide him in the creation of this product.

• Anthony Valterra is available for candid interviews.

• The photographer for “Book of Erotic Fantasy” is Doug Safford a well-known fetish fashion photographer. Some of his work can be viewed at www.hypnox.com.

• Some of the erotic fantasy images that will be in the upcoming product are available to be viewed, used in articles, or previews of the book at request. Some of these images contain no nudity and would be acceptable to mainstream publications.

• “The Book of Erotic Fantasy” is created using Wizard of the Coast’s? “Open Game License.” This license has no approvals and no royalties and is modeled after the Linux “Open Source” movement. This is the first time that a print product has attempted to make use of this philosophy. This radical and innovative idea has revolutionized and revitalized the role-playing game industry by allowing anyone to create products compatible with the Dungeons & Dragons? game system. Anthony Valterra has overseen the license for the last three years.

• With the release of the Harry Potter™ books and movies and the release of The Lord of the Rings™ movies the fantasy genre is undergoing a renaissance. This renaissance has been strengthened by concerns about war, disease and a poor economy – factors that drive people to escapism. 

• “Play at home” games are seeing a resurgence. Recent news articles have pointed to a new desire for entertainment that brings people together and allows them to interact face to face. The impersonality of the computer interface is being rejected in favor of the inviting warmth of the living room or kitchen table.

We have competition! And it's Anthony!


----------



## Sorn

Oh boy... competition... and soon too...  

Anyway... let's get ours done before they do...   

I concur with the minute = prowess check as well.


----------



## Alzrius

I am quite tickled that you guys have what appears to be serious competition for the title of the reference work on sex and D&D.

That said, depending on how dear this is to you, you may indeed want to push whatever timetable you have forward, and look into a print option, because whichever hits the shelves first on paper will be the face of D&D sex.

That said...having various options for this sort of thing is going to be something amusing to see! "Hmm, now do I use the GUCK, or the BoEF for this scenario?"


----------



## Sorn

> Wizards of the Coast is in no way associated with the product, "The Book of Erotic Fantasy," referenced recently on [websites]. We find the subject matter distasteful and inappropriate and do not endorse, condone, or approve of its use with the Dungeons & Dragons game. While the OGL license allows anyone, even our employees, to produce products that are compatible with Dungeons & Dragons, Wizards does not approve or control the theme of any third-party D20 product.




With WotC vehemently denying any involvement and going as far as denouncing it as distasteful, you probably won't find even the BoEF in their stores. 

I have mentioned this previously, but with the treatment the Book of Vile Darkness received in quite a few stores, I doubt a hadcopy version of the GUCK will be financially feasible. A few stores in the area here don't even carry the BoVD, others (including the WotC stores) have it shrinkwrapped, hidden behind the counter or locked in a display box. Given the subject matter, I can see many retailers avoiding the GUCK (and the BoEF) like a plague-infected rat. 

Another issue with a hardcopy version of the GUCK is artwork. I spent a lot of time hunting down art for this, and the artists gave me permission to use it in the final layout based on the assumption that the GUCK is a free pdf download. Once we start charging for a printed book, we would have to negotiate some sort of payment with them, or commission some new artwork really quick. 

So, instead of worrying about the competition, we should concentrate on getting the GUCK finished. We have one distinct advantage over a printed competitor: price. A lot of people might have a passing interest in rules for sex, and given the choice between a printed version which will not be widely available in stores and a free pdf download with a name that many gamers recognize from 2nd Edition, I think the majority will go with the GUCK. 

Besides, there's a lot of overlap in the d20 community. How many monster books are out there? How many books on Necromancy, Drow, Dwarves, Ships, etc. came out at roughly the same time? I think we are fine with where we are. Should someone find our product desirable enough to want to print it, we can consider it, but for now, let's focus on the meat, not the packaging.


----------



## Liquid Snake

*Minute Rolls*

It has always stricken me as peculiar that you had Prowess skill checks every round on this BOUCK version. A skill check per minute is so much logical and I think is the path you should take.

VVraywen, how does it look in your Javascript program when you do it like that?


----------



## VVrayven

::smile:: Actually the change doesn't do anything to my program at all. The rounds are rounds after all, so just consider the times to be in minutes (it's actually easier to calculate now, as you don't have to divide by 10 then figure time).

I think the minute rules work great. I have a working copy of Prowess 1.4 that I will post later today. It covers all things such as the change to the round from 6 second to 1 minute and how to handle interuptions to the combat mechanic. It also has all the new changes to the Prowess check that have been used in the latest runs of the program. I think we are getting REALLY close to a final version of the basic mechanic.

As for Anthony's product... I don't know if we should RUSH to get ours done. After all the spells and stuff are going to take a while. There really isn't a problem with theirs coming out before ours. I'm actually quite curious to see how they did their mechanics. Though I doubt they could be as in-depth as ours, I could be mistaken. 

I'll post 1.4 soon!


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## Sorn

I'll be looking forward to version 1.4. I don't know what this project would do without you VVrayven.

As far as the BoEF goes, I sent a friendly email to Gwendolyn (co-author) this morning. I was primarily wondering about the scope of their book, so once I hear back, I'll let you guys know.

I didn't mean to imply to rush the GUCK, but rather keep our current focus and not lose momentum. The core mechanics are close to being done, and the rest can actually fall into place fairly quickly. 

E.g. I just finished up the current list of PrC's. I did some major formatting, removed any references to Sex Tricks where applicable, and made some other minor fixes. Out of 17 PrC's, 6 are IMO final versions. 8 more are almost done, only pending some minor revisions or waiting for the final core mechanics. The last 3 are in their rudimentary stages, but could be very cool. Check out the progress on the site, if interested.

Spells will probably take the longest, but we can probably still wrap those up fairly quick, since not everything will be dependant on the core mechanics. 

Btw, before we do spells, we need to take care of pregnancy, as there are a lot of spells related to that. Core mechanics first though


----------



## VVrayven

*Prowess v1.4*

As promised:

THE PROWESS SKILL v1.4

This skill is in addition to the skills normally available to characters, as found in Chapter 3 of the PHB.

PROWESS (Cha)
Use this skill to bewilder your sexual partners with an array of exotic techniques. Prowess is a class skill for all characters.

As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess gives you a technique within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks – you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate technique.

There are two types of techniques, basic and exotic (either of which can be taken as a rank). The techniques are listed below, organised into groups. Each technique found is chosen from those examples in brackets. If the group is open-ended, you are free to design your own additions, providing they remain within the nature of those preceding it.

Basic Proficiencies:
Caress (By type – Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
Masturbation (Male, Female)
Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
Penetrative (By position – Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Sodomy (Receiving)
Toys (By item – Dildos, Wands, Wizards’ Staffs, etc.)

Exotic Proficiencies:
Bondage (By type – Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
DSM (Domination, Submission)
Pillow Talk (Dirty, Sweet, Poetic)
Erotic Dance (Lapdance, Poledance, Striptease)

Special: Regardless of circumstances, it is impossible to take 10 or take 20 on a Prowess check, due to its unpredictable nature.

THE PROWESS CHECK

Performing a Prowess check on someone (including yourself) requires 10 rounds (one full minute) to execute successfully. Checks are also made only once per minute. If the character is interupted during this time and unable to complete the act, the attempt automatically fails and the minute must be started over. Only one prowess roll is made for the entire minute. Each round of the prowess check is considered a miscellaneous full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity. If an attack of oppurtunity hits you, the damage inflicted is coutned as a penalty to your prowess check and all such modifiers are cumulative. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile. Grappled targets must be grappled for the entire 10 rounds or the prowess check is interupted.

It is possible to make Prowess checks against more than one partner as the same full-minute action; if your character wishes to do so, a penalty of -4 per additional partner is applied to all checks. You cannot make more simultaneous checks than (1+Dex bonus) at any time, unless otherwise stated. In addition, the multiple prowess actions must be possible (a male cannot use a penatrative technuqie on more than one person for example).

Prowess checks are resolved for a single target at the end of the full minute in which they are completed. If multiple prowess checks are used on a single partner, the 10 rounds must be simultaneous (for example, two people could not pleasure a single partner each five rounds apart). Only ONE prowess result can affect a single person at any given time (A generous DM might allow a 1 or 2 round difference). Each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC neccessary to raise the target's arousal or keep it at its current level, the base roll recieves a +2 synergy bonus. If the participant only can hit an arousal DC lower than the current state, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.

Example: Girl A is pleasuring herself (masturbation) while her partner (Guy B) has intercourse with her (she is only passively using her prowess on him, thus gains the full bonus to her own check and no multiple partner penalty). Both of them are aroused at the start of the round. Girl A has two prowess checks being using on her, (Guy B's and her own). Guy B gets a DC 21 (enough for the DC 20 to peak her) and Girl A gets a DC 19 (enough for the DC 18 to peak her). Guy Bs is the base roll (because it is higher) and it gets a +2 synergy bonus because of Girl A's success. So the final target DC is 20 and the check is a 23 (she is peaked). If instead, Guy B had his a DC 3, Girl A's check would have been the base and suffered a -2 penalty, thus the target DC for peak would be an 18 and the check a 17, and she would still only be aroused.

When making a Prowess check, you may apply as much or as little of your rank bonus as you desire, but the declaration must be made BEFORE you make the roll. Consult the table below for DCs according to your partner’s present condition, where the numbers on the left represent a male partner, and the ones on the right a female one.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- 3/4 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 4/5 16/20 32/40

After the check is made, the partner’s Arousal is changed to fit the highest DC the character achieved. They may resist this change by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC based on the new arousal state (see Table X-XX2), adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.

Table X-XX2: Resisting Arousal States
Rise to Aroused  DC 10 
Rise to Peaked  DC 15
Rise to Climaxed  DC 20
Rise to Estacy  DC 25	

If at any time a character fails to make the required roll to keep the their partner in the aroused state whilst they are already aroused or greater, the partner is entitled to a Fortitude save to avoid loosing all their arousal (and loosing their erection or drying up) and simply reside to aroused instead. This check is also made if sexual congress or any other prowess roll is interupted suddenly.

Table X-XX?: DCs to Avoid Total Arousal Loss
DC 0* - During Intercourse
DC 5 - During Oral Sex or Masturbation
DC 10 - During Other Foreplay
DC 15 - Unusual circumstances (parents walking in)
DC 20 - "I have just be stabbed by a sword!"

*Note is the modified DC is zero or below and the partner has a postive Fortitude save, no roll is required and is considered and instant success.

Every minute spent in climax or estacy indicates the partner sustained some form of orgasm. This allows the partner to aquire gratification (a basic measure of pleasure gained from the encounter). This is a running figure and is often totaled at the end of the encounter. Gratification is based upon the state of the partner and the number of rounds they have been sustained in that state. See Table X-XX3.

It is possible to keep a partner in Climax or Ecstasy for more than one minute, although this may result in adverse effects (see Status Conditions for more details). In order to do so, use the DCs listed in Table X-XX3. If the DC for Climaxed is not sustained, male characters lose all arousal; female characters reside to Aroused instead. After the first minute spent in Climax or Ecstasy, each further minute spent in Climax does one point of temporary Wisdom damage; each minute spent Ecstatic does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage.

Table X-XX3: Extended Climax DCs
Round – Climax DC//Grat – Ecstasy DC//Grat
1st 16/20**//1 32/40**//2
2nd 24/25//2 48/50//4
3rd 32/30//3 64/60//6
4th 40/35//4 80/70//8
5th 48/40//5 96/80//10*

*Repeat numerical pattern ad infinitum. Numbers on left are male DCs, on right female DCs.
**Typical values for arising from Peaked.
Gratification values are cumulative – take those from each minute of Climax or Ecstasy.

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there. In the minutes in which the check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back despite their non-active involvement. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.

TECHNIQUE SUITABILITY

Only basic prowess proficinces can be used to physically arouse a partner. Rules for using exotic proficiences are covered below. Not all Prowess techniques have equal application – some are best used to initially Arouse a partner, whilst others are best for bringing them to Climax. Switching techniques is possible during the 10 rounds, but the characters involved may not add their prowess bonus to any check based off that minute. One free position switch is allowed between each minute of prowess checks. Listed below are the modifiers to the DC for bringing a partner to different levels of arousal (as mentioned under circumstantial modifiers), based on groups of techniques.

Table X-XX?: Technique Suitability
Group - Aroused / Peaked / Climaxed / Ecstatic DC modifiers
Caressing - Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10
Masturbation - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
Oral - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
Penetrative - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Sodomy - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Toys - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0

EXOTIC PROWESS TECHNIQUEs
Exotic proficienes are not used to physically arouse a partner, rather they are used to raise the partner's mental arousal level. The procedure for using exotic prowess is identical to that of normal prowess rolls, with the following exceptions:

--A partner resists mental arousal with their Will save instead of their Fortitude save.

--It is possible to use exotic prowess checks on more than one person and unless otherwise noted, the procedure is the same.

Mental Arousal is often easier at first, but extremely difficult to get high results. All of the usual circumstantial modifiers for prowess also apply to exotic prowess rolls. The following table lists the progression of mental arousal using exotic prowess:

Table X-XX: Mental Arousal DCs
Current \ Target None Horny Lustful Delierious
None <10/<15 10/15 50/55 90/95
Horny <1/<5 1/5 30/35 70/75
Lustful <1/<5 1/5 10/15 50/55

Table X-XX: Resisting Mental Arousal
Rise to Horny  DC 10
Rise to Lustful  DC 20
Rise to Delierious  DC 30

Bondage: 5 or more ranks in Use Rope provides +2 syngergy bonus to this skill. Subjects that are bound may also be pleasured using normal prowess checks after a successful (minimum DC 10) use of this exotic techmique. If this is done, your partner continues to get the benefit from all kinks associated with bondage.

DSM: 5 or more ranks in intimidate grants a +2 synergy bonus to domination chekcs. 5 or more ranks in sense motive grants a +2 synergy bonus to submission checks. Because of the focus required for this skill, it is very difficult to use with multiple partners and all penalties for doing so are doubled. The maximum number of people that can be affected at a time with this proficiency is equal to your charisma modifier +1. Subjects that are dominated or turned on by your submission may also be pleasured using normal prowess checks after a successful (minimum DC 10) use of this exotic technique. If this is done, your partner continues to get the benefit from all kinks associated with DSM.

Pillow Talk: 5 or more ranks in bluff or diplomacy grants a +2 synergy bonus to pillow talk checks (these bonuses stack).

Erotic Dance: 5 or more ranks in Perform (with dance) grants a +2 synergy bonus to erotic dance. Erotic dance can be used on a large number of people. Virtually anyone who is within 30ft of the dancer and can see her well can be affected, they gain a +2 bonus to their Will saves. If the dancer focuses on a single person, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her check.

---END---

This still needs to be cleaned up. Sorn, I'll consider your revamp on the site to be 1.4a and good to go.



> I'll be looking forward to version 1.4. I don't know what this project would do without you VVrayven.




Awww, you're sweet. <wink and smile>

PrC look good but a few need work. I'm dying to get my hands on the spells!  Lets get 1.4 cleaned up discuss it and then post 1.5 which should be our working version to go ahead with the rest of the guide. 

I think there should be a feat that allows a prowess check every 5 rounds, giving a two to one advantage over someone, but this might cause a few issues if multiple partners or checks are involved. It all gets so much more messy with this mintue thing, but we have to do it. Maybe a sex art could expend a use to allow a prowess check in a single round. But I think allowing it as a general option is a bad bad bad idea (and not the kind of "bad" I'm in to either. )

<hugs to all> Let's get cracking!


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## Alzrius

I just wanted to offer a bit of feedback, having read this over. I know I'm coming in late on this topic, so if I'm treading where an area has already been covered, let me know people.



			
				VVrayven said:
			
		

> *As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess gives you a technique within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks – you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate technique.
> 
> There are two types of techniques, basic and exotic (either of which can be taken as a rank). The techniques are listed below, organised into groups.*




This section strikes me as slightly unclear. From what I gather, it means that when you spend ranks on Prowess, you take either Prowess (Basic Proficiencies) or Prowess (Exotic Proficiencies), since "either can be taken as a rank", right? That means that someone with five ranks in Prowess (Basic) can use those whether penetrating, masturbating, toys, etc., and someone with five ranks in Prowess (Exotic) would be able to apply that to DSM, pillowtalk, etc.

If that's how it works, I'm suggesting a mild rewrite to make that more clear, since I had to reread that part several times over to understand that those were the two groups, and each subcategory was not its own group. Of course, if I understood wrongly, then that doesn't say much for that section's clarity either. 



> *Special: Regardless of circumstances, it is impossible to take 10 or take 20 on a Prowess check, due to its unpredictable nature.*




This may be opening up a new complication, but should that hold true when using a Prowess check against onesself? Unless there are some hefty situational modifiers, for the most part you're going to be able to get yourself off when masturbating. 



> *Checks are also made only once per minute. [...] Only one prowess roll is made for the entire minute.*




Maybe its me, but those two sentences seem a tad bit redundant.



> *Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile. Grappled targets must be grappled for the entire 10 rounds or the prowess check is interupted.*




Does this allow for the possibility that the one doing the grappling can also make the check? It would seem, from what I understand, that a person can't continue to grapple and make a Prowess check on the person they're grappling since that'd be too many actions, which is certainly what a lone rapist would do.



> *It is possible to make Prowess checks against more than one partner as the same full-minute action; if your character wishes to do so, a penalty of -4 per additional partner is applied to all checks. You cannot make more simultaneous checks than (1+Dex bonus) at any time, unless otherwise stated. In addition, the multiple prowess actions must be possible (a male cannot use a penatrative technuqie on more than one person for example).*




This seems to indicate that you can make more than one Prowess check at a time, and that you can make more than just one Prowess check per minute, which isn't what the above sentences say. Confusing.



> *Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
> Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
> None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
> Aroused -/- 3/4 14/18 28/36 56/72
> Peaked -/- -/- 4/5 16/20 32/40*




Nice to see those non-entry's for states of arousal lower than the current one. Having numbers for those confused me on the website.



> *After the check is made, the partner’s Arousal is changed to fit the highest DC the character achieved. They may resist this change by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC based on the new arousal state (see Table X-XX2), adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.
> 
> Table X-XX2: Resisting Arousal States
> Rise to Aroused  DC 10
> Rise to Peaked  DC 15
> Rise to Climaxed  DC 20
> Rise to Estacy  DC 25*




Will there be options (feats, spells, etc) to let the character making the successful Prowess check raise the DC here? This seems like a good place for such things.	



> *If at any time a character fails to make the required roll to keep the their partner in the aroused state whilst they are already aroused or greater, the partner is entitled to a Fortitude save to avoid loosing all their arousal (and loosing their erection or drying up) and simply reside to aroused instead. This check is also made if sexual congress or any other prowess roll is interupted suddenly.
> 
> Table X-XX?: DCs to Avoid Total Arousal Loss
> DC 0* - During Intercourse
> DC 5 - During Oral Sex or Masturbation
> DC 10 - During Other Foreplay
> DC 15 - Unusual circumstances (parents walking in)
> DC 20 - "I have just be stabbed by a sword!"*




What I said for the last section applies here too, generally speaking. Perhaps a feat to grant a bonus to that Fort save, or one that, owing to how desire is somewhat a mental state, makes it a Will save (as if it was an exotic Prowess check), etc.



> *Every minute spent in climax or estacy indicates the partner sustained some form of orgasm.*




So the results of the Prowess check also last for a full ten rounds? I can see why this is a point of contention. Just to clarify, spending those consecutive ten rounds (one minute) in Climax or Ecstacy only counts as one single sexual release, correct? So a character who has their Climax DC reached 3 times consecutively has had three full-minute orgasms, not 30 smaller orgasms.



> *This allows the partner to aquire gratification (a basic measure of pleasure gained from the encounter). This is a running figure and is often totaled at the end of the encounter.*




I might be nitpicking just a tad bit too much, but I assume the "encounter ends" means that no more Prowess checks are being made, correct? Or is it more open, since a pair who copulated for a while, then fell asleep when they were done, and then did it again when they awoke, could conceivably all be seen as one long sexual encounter, so gratification would be totalled together for that night and morning in that sense.



> *Gratification is based upon the state of the partner and the number of rounds they have been sustained in that state. See Table X-XX3.*




So its rounds? But assuming that orgasms last a full ten rounds (since you can only make a Prowess check that often), then that means that gratification will always be inherently high (and the table for what that means will thus have to be revised), since even a mild orgasm will last ten rounds, and thus be gratification 10.



> *After the first minute spent in Climax or Ecstasy, each further minute spent in Climax does one point of temporary Wisdom damage; each minute spent Ecstatic does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage.*




No more Will save to avoid that? Interesting.



> *When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there.*




Another example that seems to violate the "only one check per minute and at a time" part from above.



> *In the minutes in which the check is made against them, they must make a Prowess check back despite their non-active involvement. If they do not add their rank bonus to this, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other checks they may wish to make.*




Shouldn't that be "any other Prowess checks (against other partners)"? I find it hard to believe that a character being penetrated, and thus making a free CHA check back, has no penalty for that to any action they may undertake that round.   I know I'm nitpicking terms here, but someone has to.



> *Only basic prowess proficinces can be used to physically arouse a partner.*




This seems slightly odd. You can't use exotic dancing to arouse a partner? People go to clubs for the very purpose of having their physical state shifted from None to Aroused (and often times higher than that).



> *Rules for using exotic proficiences are covered below. Not all Prowess techniques have equal application – some are best used to initially Arouse a partner*




...which seems to contradict what was just said...



> *whilst others are best for bringing them to Climax. Switching techniques is possible during the 10 rounds, but the characters involved may not add their prowess bonus to any check based off that minute.*




This seems a bit too specific given that the ways you can use the exotic arousal techniques are all caught under the skill Prowess (Exotic). That means that they have proficiency in all the exotic forms just as well, so switching techniques shouldn't be a problem.

Assuming I was wrong above and you do actually take different ranks in the different sub-techniques (i.e. Prowess (exotic dancing) vs Prowess (masturbation), etc.) then I would advocate that, when switching techniques in the same ten-round span, you can keep your bonus if you have ranks in both the techniques that you are shifting from and to.



> *One free position switch is allowed between each minute of prowess checks. Listed below are the modifiers to the DC for bringing a partner to different levels of arousal (as mentioned under circumstantial modifiers), based on groups of techniques.
> 
> Table X-XX?: Technique Suitability
> Group - Aroused / Peaked / Climaxed / Ecstatic DC modifiers
> Caressing - Aroused +0 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +10
> Masturbation - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
> Oral - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
> Penetrative - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
> Sodomy - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
> Toys - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0*




Sodomy seems slightly out of place here, as its based on receiving it (which I interpret to mean its very much like masturbating in that you're using it to feel pleasure yourself, since the other person is penetrating you), so you can't really use that on your partner (unless that includes knowing just when to clench and unclench those muscles). Ditto for masturbating, since touching your partner like that counts as caressing, not masturbating. All of this assumes that you must still declare what you're specifically doing, since the ranks of Prowess are themselves so broad (or I was wrong in my initial assumption).



> *--It is possible to use exotic prowess checks on more than one person and unless otherwise noted, the procedure is the same.*




The implication here is that you can't use normal Prowess checks on more than one person...which seems somewhat conflicted above.



> *Mental Arousal is often easier at first, but extremely difficult to get high results. All of the usual circumstantial modifiers for prowess also apply to exotic prowess rolls. The following table lists the progression of mental arousal using exotic prowess:
> 
> Table X-XX: Mental Arousal DCs
> Current \ Target None Horny Lustful Delierious
> None <10/<15 10/15 50/55 90/95
> Horny <1/<5 1/5 30/35 70/75
> Lustful <1/<5 1/5 10/15 50/55
> 
> Table X-XX: Resisting Mental Arousal
> Rise to Horny  DC 10
> Rise to Lustful  DC 20
> Rise to Delierious  DC 30*




Ditto for what I said before about having feats, spells, etc. for adding or subtracting modifiers here. You guys probably already have these, but I just wanted to mention it anyway.

One last thing I wanted to toss out there is that under the section detailing specific races and sex, Tieflings got an entry, but Aasimars didn't. That should, IMHO, be fixed. There's no being touched like a plantouched, after all.


----------



## Sorn

Hey Alzrius... welcome to the team. Glad to have ya. 

I'll let VVrayven answer your questions on Prowess, as she definitely is the one who knows best. 

As far as feats go, there might very well be something like that soon. Bear in mind that anything relying on the core mechanics is in an early draft stage. Of course that is just about everything except flavor text. The other stuff is mainly on the site for reference, so you don't have to sift through various downloads. 

Same goes for the race notes. Aasimars should be added. I simply copied things over from the 0.5 Word document for now. If you have any ideas for Aasimars (or any other race), just email me and I'll put it up. 

I'll get going on getting Prowess 1.4 onto the site.


----------



## VVrayven

Wow. Lots of stuff to clarify. I guess we need even clearer and more concise text with a lot more examples.



> This section strikes me as slightly unclear...




Yes, you get one prof for each rank you have in the skill. I'll clear up the language here.



> This may be opening up a new complication, but should that hold true when using a Prowess check against onesself? Unless...




Soft focus rules (which is our quick resolution system) allows for a situation similar to taking 10 or 20 and works well, plus we indicate that you don't ALWAYS need to roll for stuff (or will in the mechanics opening). That aside, men may always be able to climax, but about one third of all women can't or have a lot of trouble when they masturbate. And, if you roll enough (say ten minutes, ten rolls) even a rank 0 person is 50% likely to hit their DC (which are all below 20). Hmmm except that with Masturbation +2... Rank zero women find it impossible without circumstantial help. (I'll look into this, DbS ideas?, maybe a KNOW YOURSELF bonus?)



> Maybe its me, but those two sentences seem a tad bit redundant.




Sure. 



> Does this allow for the possibility that the one doing the grappling can also make the check?




This is a point of contention for me at the moment. When we make the NC rules I'll get back to this. My gut says that yes, this should be possible and it is always a possibility that someone else is doing the grappling.



> This seems to indicate that you can make more than one Prowess check at a time, and that you can make more than just one Prowess check per minute, which isn't what the above sentences say. Confusing.




You can. You can't make more than one one same partner or exceed your limit. I'll see if I can clear these lines up.



> Nice to see those non-entry's for states of arousal lower than the current one. Having numbers for those confused me on the website.




Well... Actually they are still there, you just can't see them. What happens for instance if you get a DC 2 on a female partner that is peaked? Hmmm? Well she drops to Aroused is what happens. I do need to clarify this though.



> Will there be options (feats, spells, etc) to let the character making the successful Prowess check raise the DC here? This seems like a good place for such things.




Yes there will be. They will be places in the feats section and spells sections respectively. No, common people cannot change these DCs. There are also some Carnal Arts that will aid in this area when we get back around to fixing them for v1.4.



> What I said for the last section applies here too, generally speaking. Perhaps a feat to grant a bonus to that Fort save, or one that, owing to how desire is somewhat a mental state, makes it a Will save (as if it was an exotic Prowess check), etc.




I think the "Avoid Total Arousal Loss" table is quite generous enough and I don't anticipate ANY bonuses being used with it. It is a Fort save because all physical arousal is tied to the body (but it is a point I will look at). This mechanic will almost NEVER be used and it is really in there to fix a small problem in the mechanics. I will clarify the text though.



> So the results of the Prowess check also last for a full ten rounds? I can see why this is a point of contention. Just to clarify, spending those consecutive ten rounds (one minute) in Climax or Ecstacy only counts as one single sexual release, correct? So a character who has their Climax DC reached 3 times consecutively has had three full-minute orgasms, not 30 smaller orgasms.




You speak of a flavor text issue. Climax does not mean ONE orgasm. Nor does it imply many. One minute of climax does not imply the orgasm lasted a minute, merely the status condition did. All of that is just flavor text. Climax means a pleasurable state in which a climax or climax-like event occured. If a woman had 3 consecutive climax minutes, it might mean see just had three orgasms one minute apart or perhaps she had thirty very quick ones. The end result is all flavor and doesn't effect the system at all. And yes, the results of a Prowess check last a full ten rounds, however, peaked will end after the next round if it is not maintained (see the definition of peaked). The prowess effects length were never a point of contention, only the length of the time segement used.



> I might be nitpicking just a tad bit too much, but I assume the "encounter ends" means that no more Prowess checks are being made, correct? Or is it more open, since a pair who copulated for a while, then fell asleep when they were done, and then did it again when they awoke, could conceivably all be seen as one long sexual encounter, so gratification would be totalled together for that night and morning in that sense.




DM discression. Typically it means the session is over with. If I make love for an hour then cuddled for twenty minues only to start again, I'd call that one session. If I slept over night, I'd call the night and day two different ones.



> So its rounds? But assuming that orgasms last a full ten rounds (since you can only make a Prowess check that often), then that means that gratification will always be inherently high (and the table for what that means will thus have to be revised), since even a mild orgasm will last ten rounds, and thus be gratification 10.




A minor typo, it should be minutes. 



> No more Will save to avoid that? Interesting.




Nope. There is no way to scale it right. So, no save.



> Another example that seems to violate the "only one check per minute and at a time" part from above.




Not really, but the language is unclear. I'll see what I can do.



> Shouldn't that be "any other Prowess checks (against other partners)"?




Sure. 



> This seems slightly odd. You can't use exotic dancing to arouse a partner? People go to clubs for the very purpose of having their physical state shifted from None to Aroused (and often times higher than that).




Right. You can't! However, you can induce the Mental Arousal: Horny which in turn can physically arouse you all on it's own...



> ...which seems to contradict what was just said...




Hmm perhaps. I'm not confused on it, perhaps: Rules for using exotic proficiences are covered below. Not all Basic Prowess techniques have equal application – some are best used to initially Arouse a partner.



> This seems a bit too specific given that the ways you can use the exotic arousal techniques are all caught under the skill Prowess (Exotic). That means that they have proficiency in all the exotic forms just as well, so switching techniques shouldn't be a problem.




Ah-hah! No here is a good idea brewing. Okay, you are wrong, you do take specific profs like (lap dance) and the like, was this unclear above? However, the reason you can't switch is based on the fact that if you are using basic techs, then the DC modifiers change from say Masturbation to Intercourse! However, I believe you should be able to switch between exotic profs without penalty. I'll add it to the list of differences section.



> Sodomy seems slightly out of place here, as its based on receiving it (which I interpret to mean its very much like masturbating in that you're using it to feel pleasure yourself, since the other person is penetrating you), so you can't really use that on your partner (unless that includes knowing just when to clench and unclench those muscles). Ditto for masturbating, since touching your partner like that counts as caressing, not masturbating. All of this assumes that you must still declare what you're specifically doing, since the ranks of Prowess are themselves so broad (or I was wrong in my initial assumption).




You are wrong, you have to take specific profs, but this is a point of debate with DbS, I'll get back to you.



> The implication here is that you can't use normal Prowess checks on more than one person...which seems somewhat conflicted above.




I'll fix the language.



> Ditto for what I said before about having feats, spells, etc. for adding or subtracting modifiers here. You guys probably already have these, but I just wanted to mention it anyway.




See above. Well, after all this shredding I think I need to rewrite some stuff for clarity. I'll get 1.4a out today and we'll work from there...


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## VVrayven

I hate to go nitpicky, but now is the eleventh hour and it must be done. I think a couple key revision ideas are needed to finalize our Prowess mechanics.

The first issue (as loathe as I am to bring it up again): On technuqie suitability. Climax DC for a masturbating female is at a +2 right now? This isn't right. Most women find it easier to climax while masturbating than with intercourse. Also, women can't achieve climax, DC 22, if they have zero or one rank just by masturbating... So, I've tweaked some numbers.

The second issue: Sodomy needs to have two ends, if for no other reason then to clear up confusion. In fact, I think all the profs need some descriptor text to clarify things.

Third: We need bigtime examples. I mean at least three long and complex examples...

So here is the version of Prowess 1.4a that is my take on things. Everyone speak as you will. DbS, what do you think? Sorn: please update the whole thing when we are done. Several minor changes have been made that might miss a causual glance. 

THE PROWESS SKILL v1.4a

This skill is in addition to the skills normally available to characters, as found in Chapter 3 of the PHB.

PROWESS (Cha)
Use this skill to bewilder your sexual partners with an array of exotic techniques. Prowess is a class skill for all characters.

As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess grants you a sexual technique, either basic or exotic, within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks - you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate technique.

The sexual techniques are listed below organized into groups for ease of use. If the group is open-ended (etc is listed), you are free to design your own additions, providing they remain within the nature of those preceding it. For example, three ranks in prowess could allow a character to be proficient with Masturbation: Male, Penetrative: Matrimonial, and DSM: Domination. These three techniques would allow the character to add their +3 rank bonus to a Prowess check; all other techniques would be with a +0 instead. 

Basic Proficiencies:
Caress (By type - Breasts, Erotic Massage, Stroking etc.)
Masturbation (Male, Female)
Oral (Cunnilingus, Fellatio)
Penetrative (By position - Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
Sodomy (Receiving, Penetrative)
Toys (By item - Dildos, Wands, Wizards' Staffs, etc.)

Exotic Proficiencies:
Bondage (By type - Contortion, Hanging, Inverted, Ties etc.)
DSM (Domination, Submission)
Pillow Talk (Dirty, Sweet, Poetic)
Erotic Dance (Lapdance, Poledance, Striptease, etc.)

Caressing refers to all manner of physical touches and brushes. Only a broad group or sensitive area should be allowed for a sexual technique. Masturbation refers to manipulating the sexual organs of the listed gender and some limited stroking of erogenous zones. Oral focuses on one of two types of oral sex. Penetration refers to all acts in which intercourse is involved. The person being penetrated can use their skills to please the thruster back or they can just lie there and pursue a different technique (see Rules below). Sodomy is split into two categories: receiving which pleasures the thruster and penetrative, which pleasures the receiver. Toys is similar to masturbation but involves some other object.

Special: Regardless of circumstances, it is impossible to take 10 or take 20 on a Prowess check, due to its unpredictable nature. There is a way to "take your time" with a prowess check, see the Soft Focus Rules on pg XX.

THE PROWESS CHECK

Performing a Prowess check on someone (including yourself) requires 10 rounds (one full minute) to execute successfully. A single prowess check is made for the entire minute. If the character is interrupted during this time and unable to complete the act, the attempt automatically fails and the minute must be started over. Each round of the prowess check is considered a miscellaneous full-round action incurring attacks of opportunity. If an attack of opportunity hits you, the damage inflicted is counted as a penalty to your prowess check and all such modifiers are cumulative. Unless specifically stated otherwise, Prowess checks can only be made against an Unwilling partner if they are grappled, helpless or immobile. Grappled targets must be restrained for the entire 10 rounds or the prowess check is interrupted.

It is possible to make multiple Prowess checks as the same full-minute action; if your character wishes to do so, a penalty of -4 per additional prowess check is applied to all checks. You cannot make more simultaneous checks than (1+Dex bonus) at any time, unless otherwise stated. In addition, the multiple prowess actions must be possible (a male cannot use a penetrative technique on more than one person for example).

<<SIDEBAR - Rounds vs. Minutes: Sexual encounters generally don't need to be handled in combat rounds. This system assumes that all actions take place uniformly in one minute of time. There are no rules present for switching partners 5 rounds into an encounter or the like. If situations like this arise, the DM has final word on what is possible and what is not. If two people engage in sexual congress during a combat, the DM decides how the minute time keeping should proceed. Spells and other Prowess modifying effects that have been active for at least 5 rounds of the check should have their full effect on the roll. The golden rule is that prowess checks CANNOT overlap just as the minute time segments cannot overlap. Consider the sexual time segment to be like a combat round, just as you can't split your standard or move-equivalent actions up, you cannot split up your minute-long prowess minute either. <End Sidebar>>

Prowess checks are resolved for a single target at the end of the full minute in which they are completed. If multiple prowess checks are used on a single partner, the 10 rounds must be simultaneous. Consider sexual encounters to be working time segments of one minute, not rounds. Individual rounds are not used, only a single minute of effort. Only ONE prowess RESULT can affect a single person at any given time. If multiple checks affect the same target, each prowess check is rolled off the target's current state of arousal and physical condition. The highest successful arousal increase is used as the base roll. If another participant succeeds the DC necessary to raise the target's arousal or keep it at its current level, the base roll receives a +2 synergy bonus. If the aiding participant fails their roll to maintain arousal, then the base roll suffers a -2 circumstance penalty.

When making a Prowess check, you may apply as much or as little of your rank bonus as you desire, but the declaration must be made BEFORE you make the roll. Consult the table below for DCs according to your partner's present condition, where the numbers on the left represent a male partner, and the ones on the right a female one.

Table X-XX: Arousal DCs
Current Arousal - None - Aroused - Peaked - Climaxed - Ecstatic
None -/- 13/16 26/32 52/64 104/128
Aroused -/- 3/4 14/18 28/36 56/72
Peaked -/- -/- 4/5 16/20 32/40

After the check is made, the partner's Arousal is changed to fit the highest DC the character achieved. If the roll fails to meet any listed DC, then the prowess check failed, and their partner looses one level of arousal. A partner may resist a rise in arousal by rolling a Fortitude save against a DC based on the new arousal state (see Table X-XX2), adding an Unwilling bonus where applicable. If successful, they remain in their current state and no additional arousal is gained.

Table X-XX2: Resisting Arousal States
Rise to Aroused DC 10 
Rise to Peaked DC 15
Rise to Climaxed DC 20
Rise to Ecstasy DC 25 

If a sexual congress is interrupted, all prowess rolls are instantly considered to have failed. Any time a failed prowess roll causes the character to loose all of their arousal (i.e. move from Aroused Status to none at all), they may make a Fortitude to stay in the Aroused state and thus prevent the loss on an erection or "drying up". The DC of this check is dependant upon how prowess roll failed. Use the highest DC available. For instance, if a couple's secret outdoor oral sex encounter was interrupted by a person walking by, but they continued anyway, both checks would fail due to the interruption the save would be DC 15. If however, no one walked by and the partner giving the oral sex simply failed a roll, the save would be DC 5.

Table X-XX?: DCs to Avoid Total Arousal Loss
DC 0* - Inept Check: During Intercourse
DC 5 - Inept Check: During Oral Sex or Masturbation
DC 10 - Inept Check: During Other Foreplay
DC 15 - Interruption: Unusual circumstances (parents walking in)
DC 20 - Interruption: "I have just be stabbed by a sword!"

*Note is the modified DC is zero or below and the partner has a positive Fortitude save, no roll is required and is considered and instant success.

Every minute spent in climax or ecstasy indicates the partner sustained some form of orgasm. This could be a single orgasm, a continuous stream of them, or perhaps just a really pleasurable state. This pleasure allows the partner to acquire gratification (a basic measure of pleasure gained from the encounter). This is a running figure and is often totaled at the end of the sexual encounter (when all sexual activity has stopped for a moderate amount of time). Gratification is based upon the state of the partner and the number of minutes they have been sustained in that state. See Table X-XX3.

It is possible to keep a partner in Climax or Ecstasy for more than one minute, although this may result in adverse effects (see Status Conditions for more details). In order to do so, use the DCs listed in Table X-XX3. If the DC for Climax is not sustained, male characters lose all arousal; female characters reside to Aroused instead. After the first minute spent in Climax or Ecstasy, each further minute spent in Climax does one point of temporary Wisdom damage; each minute spent Ecstatic does 1d3 points of temporary Wisdom damage.

Table X-XX3: Extended Climax DCs
Round - Climax DC//Grat - Ecstasy DC//Grat
1st 16/20**//1 32/40**//2
2nd 24/25//2 48/50//4
3rd 32/30//3 64/60//6
4th 40/35//4 80/70//8
5th 48/40//5 96/80//10*

*Repeat numerical pattern ad infinitum. Numbers on left are male DCs, on right female DCs.
**Typical values for arising from Peaked.
Gratification values are cumulative - take those from each minute of Climax or Ecstasy.

When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there (this is regardless of whether or not the partner wishes to). If they do not add their rank bonus to this reflexive roll, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other prowess checks they may wish to make that minute, or other actions that are not impeded by the sexual activity.

TECHNIQUE SUITABILITY

Only basic prowess proficiencies can be used to physically arouse a partner. Exotic proficiencies are used to induce mental arousal and are covered later. Not all Prowess techniques have equal application - some are best used to initially Arouse a partner, whilst others are best for bringing them to Climax. Switching techniques is possible during the same minute of sexual activity, but the highest DC modifiers must be used. One free position switch is allowed between each minute of prowess checks. Listed below are the modifiers to the DC for bringing a partner to different levels of arousal (as mentioned under circumstantial modifiers).

Table X-XX?: Technique Suitability
Group - Aroused / Peaked / Climaxed / Ecstatic DC modifiers
Caressing - Aroused +0 / Peaked +5 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +15
Masturbation - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +5
Oral - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
Penetrative - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Sodomy - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
Toys - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0

EXOTIC PROWESS TECHNIQUES
Exotic proficiencies are not used to physically arouse a partner; rather they are used to raise the partner's mental arousal level. The procedure for using exotic prowess is identical to that of normal prowess rolls, with the following exceptions:

--A partner resists mental arousal with their Will save instead of their Fortitude save.

--It is possible to use exotic prowess to mentally aroused more than the usual number of people. These circumstances listed individually, otherwise use the standard rules.

Mental Arousal is often easier at first, but extremely difficult to get high results. All of the usual circumstantial modifiers for prowess also apply to exotic prowess rolls. The following table lists the progression of mental arousal using exotic prowess:

Table X-XX: Mental Arousal DCs
Current \ Target None Horny Lustful Delirious
None <10/<15 10/15 50/55 90/95
Horny <1/<5 1/5 30/35 70/75
Lustful <1/<5 1/5 10/15 50/55

Table X-XX: Resisting Mental Arousal
Rise to Horny DC 10
Rise to Lustful DC 20
Rise to Delirious DC 30

Bondage: 5 or more ranks in Use Rope provides +2 synergy bonus to this skill. Subjects that are bound may also be pleasured using normal prowess checks after a successful (minimum DC 10) use of this exotic technique. If this is done, your partner continues to get the benefit from all kinks associated with bondage.

DSM: 5 or more ranks in intimidate grants a +2 synergy bonus to domination checks. 5 or more ranks in sense motive grants a +2 synergy bonus to submission checks. Because of the focus required for this skill, it is very difficult to use with multiple partners and all penalties for doing so are doubled. The maximum number of people that can be affected at a time with this proficiency is equal to your charisma modifier +1. Subjects that are dominated or turned on by your submission may also be pleasured using normal prowess checks after a successful (minimum DC 10) use of this exotic technique. If this is done, your partner continues to get the benefit from all kinks associated with DSM.

Pillow Talk: 5 or more ranks in bluff or diplomacy grants a +2 synergy bonus to pillow talk checks (these bonuses stack).

Erotic Dance: 5 or more ranks in Perform (with dance) grants a +2 synergy bonus to erotic dance. Erotic dance can be used on a large number of people. Virtually anyone who is within 30ft of the dancer and can see her well can be affected, they gain a +2 bonus to their Will saves. If the dancer focuses on a single person, she gains a +2 circumstance bonus to her check.

---END---


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## Alzrius

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *The second issue: Sodomy needs to have two ends, if for no other reason then to clear up confusion.*




This part has been causing me some confusion, and I think I finally figured out why. More on that below... 



> *As with the Perform skill, each rank in Prowess grants you a sexual technique, either basic or exotic, within which you can apply your rank bonus to checks - you may not apply your Prowess bonus to any application for which you do not have the appropriate technique.*




I just wanted to mention that it seems rather restrictive to limit what you take with each rank to one type of one proficiency of Prowess. I can understand the rationale though, and while it works better at lower levels, it makes it kind of difficult if you want to make a character who is supposed to be some sort of sex-deity (figuratively speaking). The way it is now, with the listings we've got, there are literally three dozen different types of Prowess you can take. Even a 20th level character would only be able to have a few, and would be a complete novice in the other of dozens of sexual acts. While I can see this for other proficiencies, a person who has +23 ranks in Prowess (Penetrative: Rear) shouldn't be making just a CHA check on Prowess (Penetrative: Riding). Why would it be that someone who has maximum ranks for Prowess (Pillow Talk: Sweet) can't use them for Prowess (Pillow Talk: Poetic)? However, like I said, there are places where the rational is rather obvious. Someone with Prowess in cunnilingus wouldn't necessarily know anything about fellatio, for example. 

My suggestion is that, when you have ranks in one subproficiency (i.e. you have ranks in Prowess (lapdancing)) you have a +2 synergy bonus when making a Prowess check for some other act from that same proficiency (i.e. that character with lapdance ranks gets a +2 synergy bonus when poledancing...this means a character making a Prowess check for an act they have no ranks in adds a +2 bonus to what is otherwise a CHA check). This rewards people who otherwise take very similar Prowess ranks, since then taking ranks in another form of the same proficiency already has them with a +2 bonus due to the other, and encourages (or at least seems to encourage) characters who specialize in one form of erotic knowledge.



> *If the group is open-ended (etc is listed)*




Etc. there should be "etc." with the quotation marks, for clarity.



> *
> Penetrative (By position - Cross, Frontal, Half-facing, Inverted, Matrimonial, Negresse, Rear, Riding, Scissors, Standing etc.)
> Sodomy (Receiving, Penetrative)
> 
> Sodomy is split into two categories: receiving which pleasures the thruster and penetrative, which pleasures the receiver
> 
> [...]
> 
> When a partner is using a Penetrative technique against them, characters always make a Prowess check back, if only by virtue of just lying there (this is regardless of whether or not the partner wishes to). If they do not add their rank bonus to this reflexive roll, it is considered a free action and does not impose any penalties against any other prowess checks they may wish to make that minute, or other actions that are not impeded by the sexual activity.*




This is what I was talking about above. It seems, in all honestly, to be rather redundant to split Sodomy up like this at all, especially given that the part about passive Prowess checks when being penetrated.

Essentially, the way it stands now, Sodomy, as not being part of the Penetrative proficiency for entering, means that the receiver doesn't make a passive Prowess check back, so the sodomizer isn't going to be pleasured at all unless the person they're sodomizing has ranks in Sodomy (receiving).

The way it was before (in part 1.4 and previous) made more sense in that respect. My recommendation is to completely remove Sodomy as its own proficiency, and instead list it (as thrusting, obvious) in Penetrative.

What seems to be lacking here is, looking over the various proficiencies...what proficiency in Prowess do women make when they want to take ranks to use back on a man when being penetrated? There doesn't seem to be one, and instead there is the option to apparently use ranks in Prowess (of any form, it seems) back on the penetrater. Essentially, anyone being penetrated has Prowess (Receiving thrusting) and can shift (apparently) all their ranks to it.

My recommendation here is to add a basic proficiency for Receiving (vaginal, anal), and to amend that free Prowess check when being penetrated so that it says that, when being penetrated, a character can either use ranks in Prowess (Receiving) as a normal action, or can make a free (rank 0) Prowess (Receiving) check while taking a normal Prowess check also.



> * Table X-XX?: Technique Suitability
> Group - Aroused / Peaked / Climaxed / Ecstatic DC modifiers
> Caressing - Aroused +0 / Peaked +5 / Climaxed +10 / Ecstatic +15
> Masturbation - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +5
> Oral - Aroused +2 / Peaked +0 / Climaxed +2 / Ecstatic +5
> Penetrative - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
> Sodomy - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0
> Toys - Aroused +10 / Peaked +2 / Climaxed +0 / Ecstatic +0*




As a minor nitpick, the "DC modifiers" should be listed right next to "Technique Suitability". They're hard to miss otherwise, and it could then be assumed they're applied to the roll instead of the DC.

Sorry to be suggesting such comparatively large revisions at the eleventh hour.


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## VVrayven

> My recommendation here is to add a basic proficiency for Receiving ...




Absolutely not! <calm> Sorry Alzirus, but this would make women masters of all techs with just two profs. Women use the same proficiency when they are pleasing the guy. If the guy is using Matrimonial on his women and she wants to add her rank bonus, she also has to have matrimonial. The syngery bonus idea isn't bad and I'll consider it.

On the sodomy issue: The women needs a prof in which she can add her bonus back and the male needs one in which he can try and give her some pleasure. Both are needed, IMO. We could just add Sodomy to the position list, perhaps that is the best course of action.

One other thing. There are not that many profs. I'd say about 15 vital ones in order to cover all your bases and after that you can please any man or women with a great deal of variety. 20 ranks and you almost COMPLETE all profs... When you are a bard with 20 ranks in perform you know alot of instruments and styles, but you don't know them ALL.



> Sorry to be suggesting such comparatively large revisions at the eleventh hour.




No problem.


----------



## Alzrius

VVrayven said:
			
		

> *this would make women masters of all techs with just two profs. Women use the same proficiency when they are pleasing the guy.*




I suppose I'm intermingling real-life and game mechanics where they shouldn't be. It seems odd, from a real-world perspective, that a woman would be less pleasing to a guy if, for example, she was being taken from behind and not on top, etc. However, you do have a very valid point in that it would give women a huge advantage over men in that instance.



> *If the guy is using Matrimonial on his women and she wants to add her rank bonus, she also has to have matrimonial.*




That makes sense. That didn't occur to me since I never considered that women would take Penetrative, for the obvious biological reasons. Perhaps a note could be made about that?



> *The syngery bonus idea isn't bad and I'll consider it.*




Thanks! 



> *On the sodomy issue: The women needs a prof in which she can add her bonus back and the male needs one in which he can try and give her some pleasure. Both are needed, IMO. We could just add Sodomy to the position list, perhaps that is the best course of action.*




I agree here. I think Penetrative (sodomy) would be fine.



> *One other thing. There are not that many profs. I'd say about 15 vital ones in order to cover all your bases and after that you can please any man or women with a great deal of variety. 20 ranks and you almost COMPLETE all profs... When you are a bard with 20 ranks in perform you know alot of instruments and styles, but you don't know them ALL.*




Even fifteen is a lot, when each one is, functionally, a separate skill unto itself. No one has enough skill points over their entire career to devote to that many skills and maintain a high ranks:level ratio. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, just that the result will be, for high-level characters, ones who are either really really good in bed with a few techniques, or are pretty good with a wide variety.


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## Death By Surfeit

Nice to see such fertile discussion on the boards. Whilst most things have resolved themselves into agreement in my abscence, I thought I’d show up to clarify a handful of matters before compiling the rules and presenting a topic to release this desperately overworked one (despite the satisfaction of looking at the browsings and replies we’re notching up).

My theory when designing the Sodomy prof. is that whilst satisfaction is technically possible from the receiving end of matters (what with the prostate gland), I gathered that it was very difficult. Hence, I restricted the proficiency to (receiving) as only the receiving partner could make Prowess checks against the penetrator, and not vice versa. If this is not correct, by all means allow both techniques.

In a reciprocal situation (ie. vaginal sex), both partners use the same proficiency against each other, as VVrayven clarified.

One outstanding issue is Climax duration, as matters are better dealt with in terms of rounds rather than minutes. I’ve compiled the full guide as I understand it and have posted it up on a new topic, titled ‘Adult: GUCK Development Forum III’; a prototype model addressing this problem has been included amongst the revisions involved. Head on over there to continue discussion; this thread is officially closed.


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## Liquid Snake

*Pregnancy*

Thought you might find this useful.

On elven pregnancy:

"The elven fetus gestates for approximately twelve lunar cycles. During pregnancy, the mother develops a bond with the developing child...At some time between the sixth and seventh cycles, the child's budding consciousness reveals itself to the mother. Over the coming cycles, she gradually begins to sense what kind of person her child will become.

The birth experience serves as the climax of a great communal celebration. Every member if the community encircles the mother-to-be, joyously singing...Both women and men, young and old, attend the ceremony and witness the miracle of being. They behold it with neither shame or revulsion...Elven bit¿rths are easier on their mothers than those of other races; they suffer little pain. (This is not true when the bay is only half-elven; these births can be agonizing and dangerous.)"
Leaf & Thorn: The Secret Life of Elves, _Laws, Robin D._ , *Dragon #279* 

On gnome pregnancy:

"Childbirth is a private time for gnome families. For the majority of the mother's pregnancy, she enjoys the company of her friends, family and neighbors, who often visit with gifts and stories. A pregnant gnome is assured that her time is always full of fun and entertainment. This all changes when the expectant mother reaches the final month of her term.

At this time, the mother retires to her home to be tended and cared for by her immediate family. During childbirth, the mother is tended to by her husband and a midwife. Other close family members and friends are not allowed into the birthing chamber..."
Study & Jest: The Secret Life of Gnomes, _Jacobs, James_ ,*Dragon #291*


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## brevdravis

*another point of view*

Uhm.... 

Just my 2c here.  First time on the board and all that.

It is very possible to receive pleasure being on the receiving end of anal sex.  (And yes I speak from personal experience, so my view may be considered a bit tainted.)

I think that the person on the receiving end should be able to have prowess checks made on them.  If you want to get technical, yes it is a bit harder, but I believe that an increased difficulty check represents the increased skill needed rather than the absence of such a check.

I'd recommend a +10, but that's just me.... Please keep in mind though that this only applies to consensual situations.  If you want to take this into the NC realm, I think the standard unwilling penalties should be applied. 

Stuart

-1st time poster


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## brevdravis

*Contribution query.*

With regards to helping out with this net-book,

A couple quick queries.

1.  Which sections need contributors?  (I.E.  which ones aren't being worked on right now?)

2.  I'm not quite sure on the ettiquitte on this particular forum, so I'm wondering if you need to be a long time poster to offer feedback, or if you'd rather not get it?

3.  Is posting ideas for "finished" sections totally out of bounds?

4.  Did I just miss the Faq, (if so, please point it out to me, and I'll stop asking stupid questions...)

Stuart


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## Sorn

This thread is actually obsolete. The new thread is here http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49858

To answer your questions...

1) All sections are pretty much open for suggestions and new material. We are currently finalizing the core mechanics. Once we are done, we will go through the remaining sections and get those done. We will be doing it one section at a time. If you have material for the chapter being worked on at the time, feel free to post it. Bear in mind that since we are doing it section by section, any posts with unrelated material are likely to be buried or might distract us from the chapter at hand. While the stuff might be great, we would like to avoid lengthy discussions about other material. We've been working on this for quite a while, and we all are itching to get this done.

2.) Any feedback is appreciated, whether you are a long-time poster or completely new to the boards (or the d20 system for that matter). The only recommendation is to stick to what I said above. Starting a debate about a certain spell, feat or PrC while we are trying to work out the core mechanics is something we don't really need. 

Regular netiquette applies, so as long as you don't start flame wars or troll about, you'll be fine. 

3.) Since none of the sections are really finished, nothing is closed. The only exception to this are the core mechanics. With them being in the final stages, a complete redesign is not on the list of things we're looking for. Anything else is free game (which includes artwork as well)

4.) We have no FAQ per se. The website has a few short blurbs on what's going on, but nothing comprehensive. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out at http://www.netbook-of-uck.net

You can find all the preview material there. Also check out the new thread, as it contains more info on what we are working on right now, plus what chapters are coming up soon.


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## Leah

*Other systems*

Hope I'm not interrupting in the wrong place.
I've been introduced to the GUCK by a friend, and was just wondering, have you considered compatibilities for Star Wars species, or races in any other systems?


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## Alzrius

*Re: Other systems*



			
				Leah said:
			
		

> *Hope I'm not interrupting in the wrong place.*




Actually, you are. This thread has been declared obselete due to the fact that its become huge, and the moderaters have asked that threads around 400 posts long be taken to a new thread. Currently, everything about the GUCK is being discussed here: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49858



> *I've been introduced to the GUCK by a friend, and was just wondering, have you considered compatibilities for Star Wars species, or races in any other systems? *




Well, I can't speak for people like DbS or VVrayven or Sorn, since they're the heads of this pretty much, but it seems same to say that we won't be introducing compatibility rules for the _Star Wars_ d20 game for two reasons:

1) We're trying to keep this as above-board as possible (considering the topic, that is), and considering that no part of the SW d20 game is Open Game Content, publishing rules for that would be a copyright violation that could land the GUCK in trouble.

2) There's little need for separate mechanics for the SW d20 game, simply for the fact that, since its d20, its well over 90% compatible with d20 fantasy, and thus, with the GUCK rules also. It should be easy to add these mechanics seemlessly into an SW d20 game as they are.

In regards to specific species, we again can't mention anything from SW since that's Lucas's, and in the case of SW d20, WotC's, intellectual property. Other races, (presumably OGC ones from other sources) could theoretically be mentioned, but doing so is far above and beyond where we're looking now; its too soon to ask that question. Any race that did get written up would mostly just be in terms of flavor text also, no mechanical rules would be added. See the Racial Notes section of chapter 9 of the current incarnation of the GUCK for examples of that.


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## Zelda Themelin

Hi, I found this dusty old thread because of link in http://www.netbook-of-uck.net/

I was wandering if the project was dead and buried, and if it is, do you still wish to keep the said web-page?

Well, anyway, I am pretty curious what happened after Book of Erotic fantasy.


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## Sorn

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> Hi, I found this dusty old thread because of link in http://www.netbook-of-uck.net/
> 
> I was wandering if the project was dead and buried, and if it is, do you still wish to keep the said web-page?
> 
> Well, anyway, I am pretty curious what happened after Book of Erotic fantasy.




Welcome back, Zelda... 

We're currently working in this thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=58506

I haven't gotten around to updating the link on the site. Things have slowed down a little, but it's definitely still going. 

Sorn


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