# OneD&D Character Origins summary



## Neonchameleon (Aug 18, 2022)

First, to anyone who's seen this mentioned but doesn't want to watch an hour long video, you get the new D&D playtest packets on D&D beyond here. (Yes, I know, old news - but the direct link is surprisingly hard to find). I've been through it making notes, in part so no one actually needs to dive into the currently 27 page thread.

Jumping straight to the meat this is an unearthed arcana that works with races and backgrounds and there are simultaneously some very big and minor changes.

Ability score bonuses are now a feature of your background not your race. This of course means that new style and old style characters are effectively even but the politics is less of an issue. It's also explicit that if you get ability scores from your race you don't get them from your background so you _can_ mix and match.
Long Rests are defined and _any_ combat interrupts them. Short rests are mentioned only for this interruption.
All natural 20s are successes - and grant Inspiration as their kicker bonus.
Critical hits only affect _weapon_ damage (alas, poor rogues unless it's a class feature). And are only for PCs
There's a new condition in Slowed.
Backgrounds, instead of a cute special ability all get a feat from the _first level_ feats list. Feats come with explicit levels now - and feats are by default part of the game.
Backgrounds are by default Custom Background (+2 to one ability, +1 to another or +1 to three abilities, two skills, a tool, a language, a first level feat, and 50gp of gear). The listed backgrounds are now just suggestions.
Half-races other than Halflings are gone.
Two new default races
Aardlings (Aasimar mixed with animals)
Orcs

Races are tweaked and things like multiple subtypes of dwarf and halfling have been dropped (halflings are now all lightfoot and get stealth proficiency rather than hiding behind other people. All weapon and armour proficiencies have been dropped
Humans are all vumans now - but have the same stat bonuses as anyone else. They've gained Inspiration every long rest - but can explicitly only take first level feats. So no Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, or +1 to a stat.
Dragonborn are nerfed back to their PHB level of use of breath weapons (i.e. full action, 15ft cone) but at least now have darkvision. It's still a horrible nerf that needs playtesters to tell them to stop the nerf
People who get free non-cantrip spells get a free cantrip at L1, a first level at L3, and a second level at L5 - in line with Monsters of the Multiverse
Tieflings now have access to Abyssal, Cthonic, and Infernal bloodlines by default. They all get thaumaturgy - and an attack cantrip by default.

There are by default Arcane, Divine, and Primal spell lists. It's implied that e.g. all arcane casters have access to the entire Arcane list plus additional class spells based on what they are.

Feats are all explicitly first level. This has a lot of implications including hopefully some really powerful L16 feats.

There are no feats that gain +1 to a stat - at least not that first level characters can take.
There are almost no "power feats" like Great Weapon Master or War Caster. There are a couple that have been nerfed.
Lucky only gives advantage (post-rolling) rather than super-advantage if you already had either advantage or (worse) disadvantage, and works proficiency times per long rest. There's no roll disadvantage, get a 20 and a 3, and then use lucky to take the 20.
Alert is only proficiency bonus to initiative - and instead of the other effects you can swap initiative

Healer's been reworked - it now helps magical healing (reroll 1s) and when you use it for battle medic it lets a creature spend a hit dice then you add prof bonus to the hit points recovered
Magic Initiate only allows access to the core Arcane/Divine/Primal lists but allows any mental stat. To me the power pick is Primal for Shillelagh and Healing Word - although Arcane for a couple of utility cantrips and Shield looks awesome for a cleric. And a _lot_ of people will take Magic Initiate for a pair of cantrips and Find Familiar. Or Hex. (As a DM the only one that worries me is the cleric with heavy armour, a shield, and Shield)
Craftsman and Musician are excellent new additions; both of them fluffy but with a kicker. And some interesting consequences
RAW all musical instruments are 20GP. This includes grand pianos, pipe organs, penny whistles and your own voice
Gaming Sets are tool proficiencies meaning that the relevant feat for a gambler is Craftsman. This says interesting things about crafters - and possibly justifies the Crafter's discount

Tavern Brawler gives a shove not a grapple. It also no longer gives +1 to a stat - but its rivals as combat feats are Tough and Savage Attacker. And Monks now have a good reason to take for the free shoves and rerolling 1s on the damage dice.

My take is that I really dislike the Dragonborn being nerfed almost all the way back to 2014. There's a bit of polishing I'd suggest in other places (notably 20% reductions from the Crafter feat). Vumans being nerfed is irritating but very much for the best. It's a hefty polish/errata but I don't actually see fundamental changes.


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## Ruin Explorer (Aug 18, 2022)

Savage Attacker (already bad lol) also got nerfed. It still applies to 1 attack/turn, but now only applies when you take the Attack Action, so doesn't apply on Bonus Action attacks, or more importantly, Opportunity Attacks, taking a 3/10 Feat to like, 2/10.


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## Haplo781 (Aug 18, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Savage Attacker (already bad lol) also got nerfed. It still applies to 1 attack/turn, but now only applies when you take the Attack Action, so doesn't apply on Bonus Action attacks, or more importantly, Opportunity Attacks, taking a 3/10 Feat to like, 2/10.



On the plus side, it now works with ranged weapons!

...yeah still junk.


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## TwoSix (Aug 18, 2022)

If they’re letting feats scale now (especially with prof bonus), my expectation would be that GWM/SS go to -prof/+2*prof instead of -5/+10.


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## Neonchameleon (Aug 19, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Savage Attacker (already bad lol) also got nerfed. It still applies to 1 attack/turn, but now only applies when you take the Attack Action, so doesn't apply on Bonus Action attacks, or more importantly, Opportunity Attacks, taking a 3/10 Feat to like, 2/10.



Can't agree with you at all here I'm afraid. What makes Savage Attacker into complete trash in the 5e PHB is that it's competing with feats like Great Weapon Master, Polearm Master, and Sentinel. It's also competing with feats that raise your damage by giving you +1 to your primary stat and that do something else like Heavy Armour Master (or from Tasha's Cutter/Crusher/Piercer).

Meanwhile in this playtest document Savage Attacker is a _first level_ feat. It's not trying to compete with any of the above feats I've mentioned - and is the primary extra damage first level feat (the only other two options are Tavern Brawler and arguably Lucky). And it's otherwise competing with feats like Durable or even Magic Initiate for combat capability and in a group where Skilled isn't a bad choice.

Does that make it a _good_ feat? No.. But if it's moved from a 3/10 feat to a 2/10 feat when compared to all feats (I'd argue it's stayed unchanged) when we look at it in the context of first level feats it's a 2/5 feat (or a 3/5 feat) because none of the power picks are allowed at first level. 

And then given it's the best feat available to do a common primary thing that people want and ties in with their concept I'd give it at least half an extra point and possibly even a full one. Putting it up to 3.5/5 among first level feats, which isn't too bad.

Of course it's still a 3/10 feat that no longer gets the bonus if you take it at a level where there _are_ power picks.


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## Ruin Explorer (Aug 19, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> Does that make it a _good_ feat? No.. But if it's moved from a 3/10 feat to a 2/10 feat when compared to all feats (I'd argue it's stayed unchanged) when we look at it in the context of first level feats it's a 2/5 feat (or a 3/5 feat) because none of the power picks are allowed at first level.
> 
> And then given it's the best feat available to do a common primary thing that people want and ties in with their concept I'd give it at least half an extra point and possibly even a full one. Putting it up to 3.5/5 among first level feats, which isn't too bad.



I understand your reasoning here but I fundamentally disagree and I'm going to use the T-word. Trap Feat. Sorry. That's what it is - "Are you too simple for mathematics? Do you not understand planning a character? Are you terrible at assessing the real game value of stuff? Do you want slightly complicate your character for a gain so small it's hard to even measure? If so here's a Feat for you!"

It's so bad that it's a goddamn Trap Feat.

And it's up against feats like a BETTER version of Magic Initiate, Lucky, Alert, Skilled. Those are also first-level Feats. All but Magic Initiate make sense for the same kinds of PC as Savage Attacker. It's awful. Even Toughness would be a better use of your L1 Feat.

Like, if we score L1 Feats from 1-5 as you suggest, it is absolutely not a 3.5/5 Feat, because that means pretty much every single other L1 Feat has to be a 4, 4.5 or 5 lol.


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## DND_Reborn (Aug 19, 2022)

deleted


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## Benjamin Olson (Aug 19, 2022)

So I spent a bunch of my Summer helping little kids make D&D characters. There's a lot I like here from an introducing new players perspective, but on that front I really dislike first level feats tied to backgrounds _as presented_. It's great for new players that _want an existing background_. But the thing is that a lot of new players would rather just come up with their own background. This is not an advanced option to me, so much as something to facilitate accessibility and decision making for people who don't want to read through pages of backgrounds. With an experienced player's help someone can just say "I want to be a swamp dweller" and they can make up that background.

Now on the one hand it is easier than ever to create a custom background with the flavorful but useless background features and equipment removed. I applaud this move. But, now the background has to have a feat, which ties in a whole, much more complicated system.

It used to be that when a kid said something like "swamp dweller" as their desired background, I would just help them think of two suitable skills, and two suitable tools or languages, and then ignore the pointless background ability and crappy random equipment. Now there's a damned feat involved.

I think it would be easiest for new players, and those helping them, if they just got a feat giving expertise in their background skills by default (I think people should be experts in the things they did their entire life until they became adventurers anyway, and especially since the background skills often don't tie to a characters prime stat, it's hardly overpowered). Then, as an advanced option this could be swapped out for other "level one" feats. 

I think first level feats tied to backgrounds is a great idea, but a simple, catch-all default option that doesn't require understanding the feat system would make it much more accessible for new players.


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## Benjamin Olson (Aug 19, 2022)

I also dislike the presentation of language as another momentous decision characters have to make. It just seems keyed to overwhelm new players for something that often won't matter much. And what's with all adventurers being trilingual minimum now? I realize the average number of languages known probably isn't really any different than current 5e, but monolingual characters should be a possibility.


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## Corinnguard (Aug 19, 2022)

So what is WoTC's excuse for nerfing the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon back to the PHB version? _curious_


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## Neonchameleon (Aug 19, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> So what is WoTC's excuse for nerfing the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon back to the PHB version? _curious_



I suspect copy/paste from the wrong source.


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## Corinnguard (Aug 19, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> I suspect copy/paste from the wrong source.



I hope so. Of the three Dragonborn versions in 5e (original 2014, UA and Fizban's), I liked the UA version with regards to the Metallic Dragonborn. Their secondary breath weapon could come in handy in crowd control situations.


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## DEFCON 1 (Aug 19, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> So what is WoTC's excuse for nerfing the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon back to the PHB version? _curious_



Probably to find out how many people own Fizban's and liked the power-up the breath weapon got.  The survey will tell them whether most people were appreciative of the Fizban boost, or if most people didn't really care either way.

So folks should make sure to fill out the survey if they want to see the Fizban level maintained.


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## Raith5 (Aug 19, 2022)

The way that critical hits only affect weapon damage for PCs (not spells) is really strange. It is the only thing here that I really dont like.


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## Shiroiken (Aug 19, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Savage Attacker (already bad lol) also got nerfed. It still applies to 1 attack/turn, but now only applies when you take the Attack Action, so doesn't apply on Bonus Action attacks, or more importantly, Opportunity Attacks, taking a 3/10 Feat to like, 2/10.



Kinda came here for this. Even moving it among some of the weaker feats (plus Lucky), it's still garbage. IMO Lucky probably needs to be pulled off the lv 1 list, but I do like the change to Proff instead of a flat 3.


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## Asisreo (Aug 19, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Savage Attacker (already bad lol) also got nerfed. It still applies to 1 attack/turn, but now only applies when you take the Attack Action, so doesn't apply on Bonus Action attacks, or more importantly, Opportunity Attacks, taking a 3/10 Feat to like, 2/10.



So far, I agree. But it feels like something wonky is happening with crits behind the scenes. 

It's odd because it feels like everything crit related is being nerfed but...against players since monsters can't crit anymore? Weird, wonder what they're getting at.


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## Seramus (Aug 19, 2022)

Not sure if I like ANY combat interrupting a long rest. DMs can already interrupt your rest by suggesting more enemies are nearby. The rule seems like it's going to be used in a somewhat negative or annoying way more often than a suspenseful or meaningful way.


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## Stoutstien (Aug 19, 2022)

Setting aside the Asian nesting doll issues regardless of how they choose to address race or lineage, it's a pretty solid mix of good mediocre and bad.

I'm really curious if they're going to move feats from optional to core how much time they're going to spend balancing in them. They gave up halfway through next for good reasons.


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## DEFCON 1 (Aug 19, 2022)

Seramus said:


> Not sure if I like ANY combat interrupting a long rest. DMs can already interrupt your rest by suggesting more enemies are nearby. The rule seems like it's going to be used in a somewhat negative or annoying way more often than a suspenseful or meaningful way.



There is nothing WotC can do to stop an irritating DM.  Annoying DMs and going to annoy regardless of the rules.  WotC cannot make all their design decisions around trying to stop those people.


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## Horwath (Aug 19, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Savage Attacker (already bad lol) also got nerfed. It still applies to 1 attack/turn, but now only applies when you take the Attack Action, so doesn't apply on Bonus Action attacks, or more importantly, Opportunity Attacks, taking a 3/10 Feat to like, 2/10.



2/10 is very generous IMHO


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## Remathilis (Aug 19, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> So what is WoTC's excuse for nerfing the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon back to the PHB version? _curious_



It's not quite.

PHB: When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level.

Fizban: When you take the Attack action on your turn, you can replace one of your attacks with an exhalation of magical energy in a 30-foot line that is 5 feet wide. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw (DC = 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, the creature takes 1d10 damage of the type associated with your Chromatic Ancestry. On a successful save, it takes half as much damage. This damage increases by 1d10 when you reach 5th level (2d10), 11th level (3d10), and 17th level (4d10).

UA: As an Action, you exhaledestructive energy in a 15-foot cone. Each creature in that area must make a Dexterity saving throw against a DC equal to 8 + your Constitution modifier + your Proficiency Bonus. On a failed save, a creature takes 1d10 + yourcharacter level in damage of the type determined by your Draconic Ancestry trait. On a successful save, a creature takes half as much damage.

Assuming averages, at first level, a dragonborn does 7 points (PH), 5.5 points (Fizban), or 6.5 points (UA). At 5th, this increases to 10.5 (PH), 11 (Fiz), and 10.5 (UA). At 11th, 14 (PH), 16.5 (Fiz), and 16.5 (UA) and at 17th, 17.5 (PH), 22 (Fiz), and 22.5 (UA). 

Of course, averages only say so much. If you go by Max, Fizban looks better at 17th: 30 (PH), 40 (Fiz), 27 (UA) but a far more interesting thing is happening: minimum damage. Again at 17th: 5 (PH), 4 (Fiz), 18 (UA). The floor is significantly higher due to the static level bonus. 

Another thing to look at: UA's breath weapon improves with every level, not just the checkpoint levels. Compare a 16th level dragonborn who is still doing 14 or 16.5 to a UA who is doing 21.5 and you'll see UA pulls ahead for a while before the other db's get a chance to catch-up. 

The only net loss is replacing an attack with a breath, which does lower DPS overall. But you trade that for more reliable floor damage at a slight loss of top end. 

EDIT: the shape also matters. PH breath shape is determined by type, Fizban is a 30' line (good for stacks or avoiding allies, but rarely hits multiple targets) while UA is a 15' cone, which is easier to aim at multiple adjacent foes at the cost of friendly fire. That being said, it's easier to hit multiple targets with burning hands than with lightning bolt, so that is something else to consider.

You also get darkvision (something they always should have had) and free draconic language to make up for the lost chromatic/metallic/gem traits. Not great, but far better than 2014.

So I don't think the dragonborn is as bad as it appears. Maybe even a little better?


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## Corinnguard (Aug 19, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> It's not quite.
> 
> PHB: When you use your breath weapon, each creature in the area of the exhalation must make a saving throw, the type of which is determined by your draconic ancestry. The DC for this saving throw equals 8 + your Constitution modifier + your proficiency bonus. A creature takes 2d6 damage on a failed save, and half as much damage on a successful one. The damage increases to 3d6 at 6th level, 4d6 at 11th level, and 5d6 at 16th level.
> 
> ...



I am not sure. One thing that I liked about the UA version and the Fizban version was how WoTC tied the number of times a Dragonborn could use their breath weapon to their proficiency. Something I should have considered when I made my first Dragonborn character using the PHB version. I had to go looking around for a racial feat to get more uses out of my character's breath weapon attack. Both the UA and Fizban version would have meant my character got an ASI instead of a feat. 

That said, I think it would be neat if a person playing a Dragonborn could switch between a line area-of-effect or a cone area-of-effect when the need arises.


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## Remathilis (Aug 19, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> I am not sure. One thing that I liked about the UA version and the Fizban version was how WoTC tied the number of times a Dragonborn could use their breath weapon to their proficiency. Something I should have considered when I made my first Dragonborn character using the PHB version. I had to go looking around for a racial feat to get more uses out of my character's breath weapon attack. Both the UA and Fizban version would have meant my character got an ASI instead of a feat.
> 
> That said, I think it would be neat if a person playing a Dragonborn could switch between a line area-of-effect or a cone area-of-effect when the need arises.



I didn't get into short rests vs prof/day as that only concerns the 2014 version (already the weakest) and isn't relevant to a single combat unless you're going Nova in one battle. Both Fizban and UA use prof/day. 

But yes, the newer db have more uses per day as it grows in strength.


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## Baldurs_Underdark (Aug 19, 2022)

Raith5 said:


> The way that critical hits only affect weapon damage for PCs (not spells) is really strange. It is the only thing here that I really dont like.



Everybody is going to House Rule that crits also work for spells, or at least cantrips... so they might as well change that immediately.


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## Seramus (Aug 19, 2022)

DEFCON 1 said:


> There is nothing WotC can do to stop an irritating DM.  Annoying DMs and going to annoy regardless of the rules.  WotC cannot make all their design decisions around trying to stop those people.



Totally true! But lots of DMs stick with the rules as written even when those rules are sometimes annoying. Especially the ones in AL who have less of a choice in the matter.


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## Aldarc (Aug 19, 2022)

Baldurs_Underdark said:


> Everybody is going to House Rule that crits also work for spells, or at least cantrips... so they might as well change that immediately.



Not sure. I kinda like that spells can't crit as that makes martial weapon users more competitive as damage dealers.


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## Baldurs_Underdark (Aug 19, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> Not sure. I kinda like that spells can't crit as that makes martial weapon users more competitive as damage dealers.



But then just turn all damage cantrips into saves for the targets, like Sacred Flame. It sucks to roll a 20 and get nothing special. Anticlimax.


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## EzekielRaiden (Aug 20, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> You also get darkvision (something they always should have had) and free draconic language to make up for the lost chromatic/metallic/gem traits. Not great, but far better than 2014.



...dragonborn have always had free draconic. Fizban's options just gave you the ability to choose some language other than draconic if you wanted it.

So literally this new thing is a nerf relative to the dragon breath of Fizban's or UA (by your own admission), a nerf relative to all the other new traits in either source, and either no difference or a nerf relative to languages. The one and only improvement is getting darkvision.

This is not acceptable.


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## Remathilis (Aug 20, 2022)

EzekielRaiden said:


> ...dragonborn have always had free draconic. Fizban's options just gave you the ability to choose some language other than draconic if you wanted it.
> 
> So literally this new thing is a nerf relative to the dragon breath of Fizban's or UA (by your own admission), a nerf relative to all the other new traits in either source, and either no difference or a nerf relative to languages. The one and only improvement is getting darkvision.
> 
> This is not acceptable.




Draconic is in addition to the free language you get AND your background language. So, while many races get three languages, dragonborn get four. 

As for rest, I wager you didn't actually read how while top end damage (as in, all rolls maxed) is slower, your low end damage (all rolls min) is way better. Seriously, which is better 1d10+15 or 3d10? I think I like my odds of rolling 25 over my odds of rolling 30...


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## EzekielRaiden (Aug 20, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> Draconic is in addition to the free language you get AND your background language. So, while many races get three languages, dragonborn get four.
> 
> As for rest, I wager you didn't actually read how while top end damage (as in, all rolls maxed) is slower, your low end damage (all rolls min) is way better. Seriously, which is better 1d10+15 or 3d10? I think I like my odds of rolling 25 over my odds of rolling 30...



Where are you getting this fourth language...? I don't see it. Everyone gets Common. Dragonborn get Draconic. Background gives a language. That's three. Where is the fourth?

Edit: Somehow I thought "UA" meant the pre-Fizban, not the current playtest, so that's why I was confused. Yes, the breath is slightly better for average output. But you cannot tell me a few points of average damage are better than, y'know, having actual racial features and not just garbage.


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## edosan (Aug 20, 2022)

Baldurs_Underdark said:


> But then just turn all damage cantrips into saves for the targets, like Sacred Flame. It sucks to roll a 20 and get nothing special. Anticlimax.




In that vein, I’d like to see all spells require an attack roll so they can have critical hits and fails but maybe that’s just me.


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## Remathilis (Aug 20, 2022)

EzekielRaiden said:


> Where are you getting this fourth language...? I don't see it. Everyone gets Common. Dragonborn get Draconic. Background gives a language. That's three. Where is the fourth?
> 
> Edit: Somehow I thought "UA" meant the pre-Fizban, not the current playtest, so that's why I was confused. Yes, the breath is slightly better for average output. But you cannot tell me a few points of average damage are better than, y'know, having actual racial features and not just garbage.




After choosing a Race and a Background, you choose a language that your character knows, in addition to the Common tongue and whatever
language you gained from the Background you chose. (pg 2)

Draconic Language. You instinctively know the language of dragons. You can therefore speak, read, and write Draconic. (Pg 3)

So a Dragonborn knows Common (default) + 1 free choice + 1 background + Draconic as a racial trait. Four languages. 

So yes, they traded out darkvision and draconic language for the three racial traits that chromatic/gem/metallic get. I guess its have a generic dragonborn alongside the "heavier influenced" options in Fizban. Both are straight upgrade over the PHB one, that's for certain.


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## Raith5 (Aug 20, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> Not sure. I kinda like that spells can't crit as that makes martial weapon users more competitive as damage dealers.



Surely there are more interesting ways to do that - especially via feats or maneuvers. I think taking away crits of attack spells takes away the fun of crits for casters. 

I also think it is weird that martial PCs are the only people in a game world that get critical hits - I am not sure that it makes sense - at the very least it seems to be a really big change compared to the past history of D&D.


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## Aldarc (Aug 20, 2022)

Raith5 said:


> Surely there are more interesting ways to do that - especially via feats or maneuvers. I think taking away crits of attack spells takes away the fun of crits for casters.
> 
> I also think it is weird that martial PCs are the only people in a game world that get critical hits - I am not sure that it makes sense - at the very least it seems to be a really big change compared to the past history of D&D.



In this world that you are imagining that "makes sense," does it make sense that spells with saves (e.g., Fireball) can't crit either?


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## Raith5 (Aug 20, 2022)

Aldarc said:


> In this world that you are imagining that "makes sense," does it make sense that spells with saves (e.g., Fireball) can't crit either?




I guess by make sense I mean just having a consistent system where if you roll to attack and roll a 20 then extra damage is applied because you have hit the target in a weak spot. An arrow or a fire bolt in the eye should do extra damage. I still think you can and should have class, racial, monster abilities that can do extra. I should note that I do have problems with doubling smite and sneak damage dice - I have seen this to be very swingy. (Personally I would like all spells to roll to hit - but that is a change that does not seem to have a lot of support!).


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## FireLance (Aug 20, 2022)

Corinnguard said:


> So what is WoTC's excuse for nerfing the Dragonborn's Breath Weapon back to the PHB version? _curious_



It makes me wonder whether WotC is going to re-word Extra Attack to be something like: you gain one (or two, or three) extra Action(s) per turn that can only be used to take the Attack action. On the one hand, it makes it more flexible for part casters like paladins, rangers and eldritch knights to cast a spell and make one attack in the same round. On the other hand, it reduces the value of Action Surge, unless it is also re-worded to: when you take the Attack action, you can make a number of additional attacks equal to half your proficiency bonus.


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## MarkB (Aug 20, 2022)

Baldurs_Underdark said:


> But then just turn all damage cantrips into saves for the targets, like Sacred Flame. It sucks to roll a 20 and get nothing special. Anticlimax.



Rolling a 20 gets you Inspiration. I think that needs to be kept in mind more when considering the new rules on critical hits.


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## Corinnguard (Aug 20, 2022)

FireLance said:


> It makes me wonder whether WotC is going to re-word Extra Attack to be something like: you gain one (or two, or three) extra Action(s) per turn that can only be used to take the Attack action. On the one hand, it makes it more flexible for part casters like paladins, rangers and eldritch knights to cast a spell and make one attack in the same round. On the other hand, it reduces the value of Action Surge, unless it is also re-worded to: when you take the Attack action, you can make a number of additional attacks equal to half your proficiency bonus.



It could be worse. They could borrow Pathfinder 2nd edition 3 Action Economy.


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## MostlyHarmless42 (Aug 20, 2022)

Let's not gloss over the changes to grapple either!
1) A target being grappled now has disadvantage to hit any target other than the one grappling them.
2) The grappler is Slowed, which means other creatures have advantage to hit THEM.
3) Grapple is now an Unarmed Attack roll with a static DC that creatures can roll against at the end of each of their turns (as a Str or Dex SAVE). It is also no longer an opposed roll but is now against AC!

Point 3 by itself has a number of implications:
A) Abilities/spells/feats that boost Athletics or Acrobatics will no long effect grapple (goodbye Rogue/Bard expertise grapplers)
B) Feats like Resilient and (arguably) Shield Master will now help against being Grappled or to Grapple someone, assuming they make the cut. Same with spells like Bless or Superiority Dice.
C) Some martial classes like Paladin are going to be worse at grappling or avoiding being grappled due to it now being a STR/DEX save due to not having proficiency in either of those two saves.

Big implications here.


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## Cheah18 (Aug 21, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> I understand your reasoning here but I fundamentally disagree and I'm going to use the T-word. Trap Feat. Sorry. That's what it is - "Are you too simple for mathematics? Do you not understand planning a character? Are you terrible at assessing the real game value of stuff? Do you want slightly complicate your character for a gain so small it's hard to even measure? If so here's a Feat for you!"
> 
> It's so bad that it's a goddamn Trap Feat.
> 
> ...




I believe everyone knows the reasons listed by the person to whom you are replying, but are really missing a big factor here. I know all the maths about it and I understand it is not a powerful feat.

The thing is, this is level-1 cha-gen. So much goes into building a character with a life and personality and feel and vibe that you want. This is being forgotten when comparing SA to these other Level 1 feat options. These feats are clearly, like in other TTRPG games, filling the role of interesting, nuancing tricks and 'thangs' that define a character and impact the RP as well as adding effects.

SA was/is bad mathematically, but for its RP purposes its an okay idea. A character who every turn is so 'savage' that they have the possibility of inflicting more damage than someone else might, or that they flat out are stronger, or however the player wants to frame it, is pretty damn kewl. But, when put alongside other damage feats as mentioned, or an ASI, and given that the sparse opportunities for feats was so precious, it felt PRETTY DAMN BAD. The little RP 'thang' was just an absolute fiasco of a purchase for that value.

Now, every character is getting a level one feat. None of these feats are intended to be super powerful, and they are formulated with the character expression in mind. They aren't meant to be precious purchases, but a natural component of the cha-gen - how your character is and came to be, as well as what their output is.

I agree that the other feats are clearly better, but look: I am making a strongman gladiator with an anger problem who has had some fights in the arena, and has been bought by a nobleman and is now on a quest given to him. I want the brutality of his attacks to shine through, and to be above the other level-1s. What should I take - Healer? Magic Initiate? Hell no. Tough, arguably, but that's defensive, and maybe that's not what I'm going for. You comparing them to SA isn't appropriate here. On the contrary, me coming to the table hearing the 'what do you look like?', and telling my party about my roman gladiator muscles and helmet, all the while knowing I'm gonna be re-rolling an attack every turn forever? For simply selecting an option during part of the innate gen process from some other cool options? I'm PRETTY DAMN HAPPY with that.
It's not right to compare it to the other options given that the context and investment to acquire them has been reframed so much. The only trap I see is thinking the word 'feat' means the same thing as it used to.


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## UngeheuerLich (Aug 21, 2022)

I still believe the dragonborn is not nerfed, but we have not seen the reimagination of extra attack yet.
A clean way to do extra attack and make it actually useful for multiass fighter wizards is just granting an extra haste-like action. A single attack.
So no more splitting up, no more weird wordings. Just: you may take an extra action you can only use to attack. This will make fighters so much cooler as you can dodge, attack. Dash, attack. Ready, attack. Disengage, attack. Dragonbreath, attack.


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