# What is a warlock/sorcerer without a starting patron/origin?



## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2022)

If classes which currently start with their subclass at first level, such as warlocks, wizards and sorcerers, have their subclass choice moved to third, what would theses classes even look like their first couple of levels?

Wizards are pretty easy, as one who hasn’t specialized yet is still a recognizable student of the arcane arts. 

But what about a warlock? If the idea is to remove the “blocker” of extra choices like cleric domains from initial character creation, the. What does that mean for selecting a patron? One could argue a warlock’s patron is a more mechanically important decision than a cleric’s deity, since their domain subclass choice can be selected independently of their deity, since one deity can have multiple domains. But choice of a patron dictates a warlock’s powers directly, closely followed by Pact selection.

So, what even is a warlock without a patron yet? 

Same for a sorcerer. Their subclass is literally called “sorcerous origin”. What exactly is such a character that hasn’t selected their origin until third level?

Thoughts on how WotC might approach this issue if they stick to starting all subclasses starting at third level?


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## mellored (Dec 2, 2022)

Your connection to your power grows deeper over time.

Level 1: invocations
Level 2: pact magic
Level 3: pact boon


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2022)

mellored said:


> Your connection to your power grows deeper over time.



Yeah, but what power? Do you still have to choose a patron or origin at first level? If so, then that defeats the purpose of pushing all subclasses to third level to simplify creating a new character.


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## mellored (Dec 2, 2022)

No more than a cleric needs to chose their god at first level.


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## Davies (Dec 2, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> So, what even is a warlock without a patron yet?



Someone who knows a few neat tricks.


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## Yaarel (Dec 2, 2022)

The UA Cleric has the Channel Divinity feature at level 1.

If the Cleric is a distinctive character concept, then the character can gain a different Channel Divinity to actualize this concept at level.

In other words, The Channel Divinity at level 1 can foreshadow the flavor of the subclass choice at level 3.

In the UA, the Life Cleric is the only example of a subclass. Appropriately enough, the _Divine Spark_ Channel Divinity that can heal or deal luminous radiant damage foreshadows the later Life domain.

Hypothetically, a Death domain at level 3 might have Channel Divinity that inflicts necrotic damage at level 1 to foreshadow it.

And so on for other level 1 Channel Divinity selections to herald the choice of the level 3 subclass.



I think it is ok for the player to choose one Channel Divinity at level 1 and an unrelated subclass at level 3. But sometimes the consistency matters for the character concept. For example, a child might be fated from birth to pursue to a divine calling. In this case, I need a way to express the character concept at level 1. Channel Divinity lets me do this.


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## Yaarel (Dec 2, 2022)

The UA Cleric chooses a holy symbol at level 1 as well as a Channel Divinity. There is some longterm commitment and expression already.

Similarly, the UA Warlock can choose a patron at level 1 as well as a mechanic to express this choice. Currently in the 2014 Players Handbook, the level pact powers include: Fey Presence, Dark Ones Blessing, or Awakened Mind. The UA Warlock can be the same things, perhaps repackaged in a new format.

The level 3 Pact Boons will probably see much redevelopment as a subclass mechanic. So instead of a Pact of the Blade, it will be the Hexblade subclass. (Or Feyblade, or so on.)


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 2, 2022)

I also see no problem to only find out what your bloodline is at level 3.
Level 1 and 2 may be: oh I have this power now... where does it come from...
The sorcerer can easily start with sorcery points then. 

For the warlock it is easier: chose a patron at level 1. Gain a minor benefit (in form of an invocation?)
Then chose your pact and gain everything you really want.

Or start with the pact at level 1. And only later you gain the benefits of the patron, when you have proven yourself a bit.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 2, 2022)

The sorcerer is an innate spellcaster whose particular source of innate arcane power does not distinctly express itself until level 3. I really have no problem with that. I might prefer it in fact, as it makes it feel less obligatory to work the lineage into your first attempt at a backstory.

Warlock is more problematic. But I kind of would like to see the patron divorced from the subclass. I currently am DMing for a Hexblade player who was hesitant about the subclass until I suggested that she could have some other patron and just have that patronage take the form of Hexblade features rather than swearing her soul to the service of a magic weapon. I do appreciate how evocative some of the subclasses are of the patron, and so something would definitely be lost in more of a mix and match set-up but something would also be gained.


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## kigmatzomat (Dec 2, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> But I kind of would like to see the patron divorced from the subclass. I currently am DMing for a Hexblade player who was hesitant about the subclass until I suggested that she could have some other patron and just have that patronage take the form of Hexblade features rather than swearing her soul to the service of a magic weapon. I do appreciate how evocative some of the subclasses are of the patron, and so something would definitely be lost in more of a mix and match set-up but something would also be gained.




I think this would work in general. The powers granted by Archfey, hexblade, undying,  Fiend, great Old Ones and even the fathomless seem like they would be more or less universally applicable.   I can see almost any patron granting mind-affecting/mind-shielding, melee/luck powers, semi-immortality, resistance/luck, telepathy/mind-control or sea powers.

I could even see patrons giving out a phylactery with Genie's powers but doing so would mean Genie loses almost all unique flavor.

The exception is Celestial's powers. While applicable to many, Radiance & healing seems off for evil/darkness patrons.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 2, 2022)

kigmatzomat said:


> I think this would work in general. The powers granted by Archfey, hexblade, undying,  Fiend, great Old Ones and even the fathomless seem like they would be more or less universally applicable.   I can see almost any patron granting mind-affecting/mind-shielding, melee/luck powers, semi-immortality, resistance/luck, telepathy/mind-control or sea powers.
> 
> I could even see patrons giving out a phylactery with Genie's powers but doing so would mean Genie loses almost all unique flavor.
> 
> The exception is Celestial's powers. While applicable to many, Radiance & healing seems off for evil/darkness patrons.




Pact and patron can easily be swapped in power, if you are ok with a bit less backward compatibility.

The celestial powers could be relegated to invocations with prerequisite: celestial patron.


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## mellored (Dec 2, 2022)

Eldritch blast at 1 works for any patron.
As does invocations at 2.


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## Reynard (Dec 2, 2022)

Davies said:


> Someone who knows a few neat tricks.



Don't take me for some conjurer of neat tricks!


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## Tales and Chronicles (Dec 2, 2022)

Pretty easily:

Sorcerer: 1st mysterious power coming from within. Begin with spellcasting, font of magic and metamagic. 
3rd level -> Awakening (you discover the true source of you powers). 

Warlock: Begins dealing with a shadowy, hidden, unfathomable power. Spellcasting + Invocations.
3rd level -> Revelation (the true nature of your patron is revealed, as well as the extent of your debt...)

Let's be honest, in most stories, these kind of characters dont start in the first chapter knowing their full origin or the identity of the mysterious benefactor.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 2, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> But what about a warlock? If the idea is to remove the “blocker” of extra choices like cleric domains from initial character creation, the. *What does that mean for selecting a patron? *




You're a creature that's made a pact with an extraplanar creature as usual, and you can fluff it however you want. In exchange you're granted spells etc. It's absolutely no different to how it is now.

At 3rd level, the bond strengthens, and it comes online via the Patron class feature, and it gets fleshed out with the game mechanics suitable for whatever patron you select at 3rd. 

Your patron takes notice of you and starts actually talking to you (or whatever).

If you want to play a creature that has made a pact with the Devil for magical powers, you can play a creature that has made a pact with the Devil for magical powers, even though your patron choice doesnt mechanically kick in till 3rd level.

Maybe extra-planar creatures dont give much of a naughty word about their Warlocks till they've proved themselves killing a few Kobolds first.

Ditto with Sorcerers. At 3rd level their Bloodline flares into power, allowing the player to select [a Sorcerer bloodline sub class from a list]. The PC was always a Dragon blood (or whatever) and that's where he got his spells from etc, but his blood power wasnt strong enough at levels 1-2 to really set him aside mechanically from other Sorcerers.

It's no big deal, and it does away with 1-2 level dips (a good thing) and reduces the choices at 1st level, removing decision paralysis for new players (a good thing).


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## Minigiant (Dec 2, 2022)

Pact Boon and Otherworldly Patron are being swapped.

Eldritch Cantrip, Pact Boon (Blade, Chain, or Tome), Pact Magic
Eldritch Invocation
Otherworldly Patron
A patron isn't giving a warlock a link to themselves until they prove themselves anymore. You area generic warlock until the patron thinks you are worthy of their true power.

Same with Sorcerer. 
You are generic sorcerer until you tap into more of your power. As you grow, your origin shows.


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## TwoSix (Dec 2, 2022)

For cleric, warlocks, and sorcerers at levels 1-2, it's essentially Schrodinger's Backstory.  The character has been granted a shred of magical power via divine agency, innate bloodline, or magical contract.  The provenance of these powers may be unknown to the character, in which case the level 3 feature serves as a reveal in the narrative.  Alternatively, the source of these powers is known to the character, in which case the level 3 feature gain serves as that power coming to the fore and being fully realized.

There's no need in the narrative to present having to make a choice at level 3 between domains/patrons/origin as something the _character_ is actually choosing between.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 2, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> For cleric, warlocks, and sorcerers at levels 1-2, it's essentially Schrodinger's Backstory.  The character has been granted a shred of magical power via divine agency, innate bloodline, or magical contract.  The provenance of these powers may be unknown to the character, in which case the level 3 feature serves as a reveal in the narrative.  Alternatively, the source of these powers is known to the character, in which case the level 3 feature gain serves as that power coming to the fore and being fully realized.
> 
> There's no need in the narrative to present having to make a choice at level 3 between domains/patrons/origin as something the _character_ is actually choosing between.




Paladins currently work this way anyway, only taking an Oath at 3rd level, so Its no big deal.

I've found it opens up more character options as well, seeing as a few levels in paladin doesnt require an Oath (but you can fluff yourself one anyway if you want).


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## bedir than (Dec 2, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> Yeah, but what power? Do you still have to choose a patron or origin at first level? If so, then that defeats the purpose of pushing all subclasses to third level to simplify creating a new character.



They don't know what they've committed to, yet. They just wanted the power offered. At level three they discover their connection to...


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## Scribe (Dec 2, 2022)

mellored said:


> Your connection to your power grows deeper over time.
> 
> Level 1: invocations
> Level 2: pact magic
> Level 3: pact boon




If you dont pick who to make a pact with, till 3rd, a warlock shouldnt even have a power though, you have no deal, no bargain, nothing.


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## Minigiant (Dec 2, 2022)

Scribe said:


> If you dont pick who to make a pact with, till 3rd, a warlock shouldnt even have a power though, you have no deal, no bargain, nothing.



Can't your patron be a dark mysterious figure for a bit then remove their hood and "Surprise! I'm the Devil! Mwahahaha!"

I think the first level ability will be changed to something like "Eldritch Pact". All Eldritch pack will do is give you Eldritch Blast cantrips.

At first level, you can name your patron or keep them as a hidden benefactor. Their specific style of pact doesn't come into play until level 3.

---

Same thing with the sorcerer. You might have been born with sorcery and one time you shot fire at the neighbor's cow. However when you train to become an actual true sorcerer you had to push down and bottle up most of your origin in order to control it. Not until you got to level 3, when you fully control of it, could you start digging back into your origin your draconic ancestor, an aberrant infection, inner wild magic, or a shadow taint.


In most stories, the warlock or sorcerer have to learn control first before they tap into true power. Those who quickly get into in a magic or granted powers tend to either explode or get mutated.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Dec 2, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> Yeah, but what power? Do you still have to choose a patron or origin at first level? If so, then that defeats the purpose of pushing all subclasses to third level to simplify creating a new character.



The character doesn't yet know the source of their power. At third level, they figure it out or it's presented to them.

"Ah, you enjoyed the taste of power I've fed you? Good, good, now sign right here on this extended contract ..."

(Yes, I know some folks' heads explode at this notion. It's tongue in cheek here, folks.)


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## Minigiant (Dec 2, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The character doesn't yet know the source of their power. At third level, they figure it out or it's presented to them.
> 
> "Ah, you enjoyed the taste of power I've fed you? Good, good, now sign right here on this extended contract ..."
> 
> (Yes, I know some folks' heads explode at this notion. It's tongue in cheek here, folks.)



D&D patrons don't use the drug dealer style. It's straight lawyer.

"Too late baby. You already signed the contract. You drank the potion. Now steal me dem babies! Or I'll send my other employees and attorney after you."


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Dec 2, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> D&D patrons don't use the drug dealer style. It's straight lawyer.
> 
> "Too late baby. You already signed the contract. You drank the potion. Now steal me dem babies! Or I'll send my other employees after you."



_runs away from the drama this post will unleash_


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## Minigiant (Dec 2, 2022)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> _runs away from the drama this post will unleash_



Everyone thinks the Archfey is the good patron until some hot supermodel-looking fey asks you to kidnap someone.


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## Charlaquin (Dec 2, 2022)

Warlock already got a build choice at 3rd level. Just call Pact Boon the subclass and leave Patron a 1st-level choice that doesn’t get called a subclass.


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## GMforPowergamers (Dec 2, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> If classes which currently start with their subclass at first level, such as warlocks, wizards and sorcerers, have their subclass choice moved to third, what would theses classes even look like their first couple of levels?
> 
> Wizards are pretty easy, as one who hasn’t specialized yet is still a recognizable student of the arcane arts.
> 
> ...



maybe your choice of patron just isn't the subclass... like I don't know if domain is based on god by this write up


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## Incenjucar (Dec 2, 2022)

There is also a general delving into the occult before deciding on which entity you wish to pledge to within the larger set of options. This is generally the case for real world practices in various systems, so it makes that much more sense.


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## Charlaquin (Dec 2, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> D&D patrons don't use the drug dealer style. It's straight lawyer.
> 
> "Too late baby. You already signed the contract. You drank the potion. Now steal me dem babies! Or I'll send my other employees and attorney after you."



I prefer patrons to be _patrons._ “I appreciate your work and I’d like to see more of it. Here’s some money spells so you can keep it up. Oh, also, I’d _really_ appreciate it if you use some of that to… [insert request here].”


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## Wyckedemus (Dec 2, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Pact Boon and Otherworldly Patron are being swapped.
> 
> Eldritch Cantrip, Pact Boon (Blade, Chain, or Tome), Pact Magic
> Eldritch Invocation
> ...



Ooooh... the Pact Boon can be how you got the connection to your (possibly mysterious) patron in the first place. Did you get it from a mysterious tome of lost/forbidden magic? Did you commune with a servant spirit bound to the patron that manifests as a familiar? Was it a magical weapon that is tied to the patron? This is your gateway into power.

Eldritch Invocation opens up your access to the eldritch mysteries, luring you to seek more power...

Otherworldly Patron is when your Patron is revealed (was it honest, or a trick to bind you?) and grants you greater access and affinity to its power. Heck, maybe the previous eldritch mysteries give you insight that there are other Otherworldly Patrons to choose to petition to.


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## Lojaan (Dec 2, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> Pretty easily:
> 
> Sorcerer: 1st mysterious power coming from within. Begin with spellcasting, font of magic and metamagic.
> 3rd level -> Awakening (you discover the true source of you powers).
> ...



I like both of these. Sorcerers find the source of their power at level 3. Warlocks seal their bargain at level 3 and _afterwards_ learn the true nature of their patron. <Maniacal laugh>.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 2, 2022)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> Pretty easily:
> 
> Sorcerer: 1st mysterious power coming from within. Begin with spellcasting, font of magic and metamagic.
> 3rd level -> Awakening (you discover the true source of you powers).
> ...



Both good. And even if you do know that's no reason you should have more than the generic starter pack at level 1. Especially if you _thought_ you were bargaining with a celestial but it turns out to have been a fiend.


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## Incenjucar (Dec 2, 2022)

This also helps create the "dip" story of turning away from temptation before it was too late, but still knowing a thing or two.


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## Clint_L (Dec 2, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> If classes which currently start with their subclass at first level, such as warlocks, wizards and sorcerers, have their subclass choice moved to third, what would theses classes even look like their first couple of levels?
> 
> Wizards are pretty easy, as one who hasn’t specialized yet is still a recognizable student of the arcane arts.
> 
> ...



Someone who hasn't yet learned the source of their power, or whose source hasn't fully manifested itself yet.  To be honest, this seems like a pretty typical backstory for those classes: the warlock who has, perhaps even unconsciously, been gaining power from some entity, only to be confronted by the reality and have to make a choice. The sorcerer whose bloodline is having unpredictable effects until they finally learn why. Etc.

Edit: I like it a LOT better in terms of story for Warlocks, in particular. I would assume that some powerful Entity would only reveal itself fully once you had established your worthiness to some basic level.


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## Charlaquin (Dec 2, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Pact Boon and Otherworldly Patron are being swapped.
> 
> Eldritch Cantrip, Pact Boon (Blade, Chain, or Tome), Pact Magic
> Eldritch Invocation
> ...



Wow, I really like that!


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## Lojaan (Dec 2, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Can't your patron be a dark mysterious figure for a bit then remove their hood and "Surprise! I'm the Devil! Mwahahaha!"
> 
> I think the first level ability will be changed to something like "Eldritch Pact". All Eldritch pack will do is give you Eldritch Blast cantrips.
> 
> ...



Screw that cow. It had it coming.


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## Flamestrike (Dec 4, 2022)

Scribe said:


> If you dont pick who to make a pact with, till 3rd, a warlock shouldnt even have a power though, you have no deal, no bargain, nothing.




*There is nothing stopping you picking an entity to make your pact with at 1st level.* The only difference is zero mechanical differences till 3rd.


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## Vael (Dec 4, 2022)

Sorcerers would probably get Sorcery Points at level 1, Metamagic at level 2 then.

It is ... odd, especially for those that insist that Sorcerers with different origins have vastly different spell lists and mechanics, but as long as the class doesn't feel like the neglected third of the Mage group, I'll be fine with it.


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## Remathilis (Dec 4, 2022)

Flamestrike said:


> *There is nothing stopping you picking an entity to make your pact with at 1st level.* The only difference is zero mechanical differences till 3rd.



^^ THIS ^^

It's not like people don't read ahead and decide what subclass they are going to take. Some people will wait to decide at level 3 that they are now worshipping Selune, made a deal with Belial, or their granddaddy was a silver dragon, but the majority of players will decide at first level what their deity, oath, patron, or bloodline is before it comes with a mechanical benefit.


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## Lojaan (Dec 4, 2022)

Remathilis said:


> ^^ THIS ^^
> 
> It's not like people don't read ahead and decide what subclass they are going to take. Some people will wait to decide at level 3 that they are now worshipping Selune, made a deal with Belial, or their granddaddy was a silver dragon, but the majority of players will decide at first level what their deity, oath, patron, or bloodline is before it comes with a mechanical benefit.



Good point. Paladins never had a problem and they didn't get their oath til LVL 3


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## Henadic Theologian (Dec 4, 2022)

It does screw up the flavour, the choice should be at level 1.


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## Charlaquin (Dec 7, 2022)

I could see swapping the levels of pact boon and patron. At 1st level, your character discovers a powerful artifact - an enchanted blade, a tome of forbidden lore, or a leash that magically binds an imp or other powerful familiar. At that point, they know it’s powerful but might not realize its full significance, and in fact, the patron is likely holding back, only giving the character a small fraction of its power. That power grows somewhat at second level, but it’s not until third level that the patron reveals itself. The player may or may not be choosing the subclass at that time out-of-game, but in the fiction, whatever they pick, that was the patron all along.

Alternatively, keep patron and boon at the same levels, but reduce the impact of patron to be mostly flavor and maybe a minor feature; make pact boon the actual subclass. Personally, I like the former option better.


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## Li Shenron (Dec 7, 2022)

*Sorcerer*: doesn't know why they have special powers until level 3.

*Warlock*: knows, but isn't telling anybody until level 3.


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## CreamCloud0 (Dec 7, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> If classes which currently start with their subclass at first level, such as warlocks, wizards and sorcerers, have their subclass choice moved to third, what would theses classes even look like their first couple of levels?
> 
> Wizards are pretty easy, as one who hasn’t specialized yet is still a recognizable student of the arcane arts.
> 
> ...



You are still a warlock/sorcerer, you still have your magical patron/bloodline, your connection to them just isn’t strong enough yet for you to of determined what exactly they are yet but you know you’ve got a connection to _something_.
Edit: in a similar vein clerics and paladins get the entry level package all clerics/paladins get before the specifics of their deity/oath start kicking in.


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## shadowoflameth (Dec 9, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> If classes which currently start with their subclass at first level, such as warlocks, wizards and sorcerers, have their subclass choice moved to third, what would theses classes even look like their first couple of levels?
> 
> Wizards are pretty easy, as one who hasn’t specialized yet is still a recognizable student of the arcane arts.
> 
> ...



You choose your patron at 1st but your pact at 3rd in 5E. They don't need to change that, but maybe change what you get with your patron in some cases to coming at 3rd.  As an example, with the Hexblade instead of Hexblade's Curse it could be moved to 3rd level.


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## Clint_L (Dec 9, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> So, what even is a warlock without a patron yet?



Someone who might be in for a nasty surprise when they learn where those powerful "gifts" have been coming from.

This is a fun choice for players to make when they hit level 3. Has this character been unwittingly tapping into the power of a dark entity from beyond time and space? Or have they been unknowingly proving their worth to a powerful fey? Or is their weapon itself a sentient being?


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## Tonguez (Dec 9, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> Yeah, but what power? Do you still have to choose a patron or origin at first level? If so, then that defeats the purpose of pushing all subclasses to third level to simplify creating a new character.




x-men, as level 1 teenagers they start to manifest strange abilities that freak out their parents/neighbours, then they get visited and invited to join Xaviers School (level 2), Prof X then probes their psyche and indentifies the Origin or Patron Entity empowering them (level 3)


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## Vaalingrade (Dec 9, 2022)

Considering the 0 levels are only there to last like two sessions, it's probably just going to be on the player to pretend until Session 3 where they can start playing their character, or on the DM to realize level 3 is the new level 1 and 1-2 are 0-levels for use with newbies you hate and preludes only.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 9, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> Considering the 0 levels are only there to last like two sessions, it's probably just going to be on the player to pretend until Session 3 where they can start playing their character, or on the DM to realize level 3 is the new level 1 and 1-2 are 0-levels for use with newbies you hate and preludes only.



Or even have the player not pretend - but the starter set they get from their patron is the same starter set all warlocks get.


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## Vaalingrade (Dec 9, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> Or even have the player not pretend - but the starter set they get from their patron is the same starter set all warlocks get.



Kind of weird that the devil gives the same powers as an angel, gives the same powers as a weird sword, gives the same powers as Lovecraft's sloppy seconds.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 9, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> Kind of weird that the devil gives the same powers as an angel, gives the same powers as a weird sword, gives the same powers as Lovecraft's sloppy seconds.



They don't - they give you the same powers _at level 1_. In other words the ability to cast one spell per short rest (which might be different) and an unlocked Eldritch Blast. Opening your magic up is common. At level 2 they then give you a Pact Boon - and this won't necessarily be the same. And only by level 3 do they actually change you.

The thing that's in common is the "Ye'r a wizard ... sucker" starter. And even then the spells aren't the same.


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## Tonguez (Dec 10, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> Kind of weird that the devil gives the same powers as an angel, gives the same powers as a weird sword, gives the same powers as Lovecraft's sloppy seconds.



Not really, the mortal flesh and mind can only do so much and so all mortals manifest the same trauma until their body and psyche adapts


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## vecna00 (Dec 10, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> Lovecraft's sloppy seconds.



That's one of the most frightening phrases I've read!


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## Vaalingrade (Dec 10, 2022)

vecna00 said:


> That's one of the most frightening phrases I've read!



It's the only way I can think of to describe the 'slap some tentacles or slime on it and say it's really, really old' school of monster creation.


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## vecna00 (Dec 10, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> It's the only way I can think of to describe the 'slap some tentacles or slime on it and say it's really, really old' school of monster creation.



You know what, that's a fair assessment.


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## Fifinjir (Dec 10, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> It's the only way I can think of to describe the 'slap some tentacles or slime on it and say it's really, really old' school of monster creation.



I can find those in my fidge!


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## doctorbadwolf (Jan 4, 2023)

Sir Brennen said:


> If classes which currently start with their subclass at first level, such as warlocks, wizards and sorcerers, have their subclass choice moved to third, what would theses classes even look like their first couple of levels?
> 
> Wizards are pretty easy, as one who hasn’t specialized yet is still a recognizable student of the arcane arts.
> 
> ...



I think I prefer it for the warlock, and I think it probably improves the sorcerer, as well. 

For the warlock, this means that the warlock is actually doing magic stuff before they get their big patron power boost or whatever, and it frees up the flavor a bit. I can more satisfyingly make warlocks who are ritual magicians first, and who eventually use that knowledge and skill to gain power through rituals of invocation with an otherworldly being.


Minigiant said:


> Pact Boon and Otherworldly Patron are being swapped.
> 
> Eldritch Cantrip, Pact Boon (Blade, Chain, or Tome), Pact Magic
> Eldritch Invocation
> ...



or any number of other stories


Minigiant said:


> Same with Sorcerer.
> You are generic sorcerer until you tap into more of your power. As you grow, your origin shows.



which is a more common story, I think.


bedir than said:


> They don't know what they've committed to, yet. They just wanted the power offered. At level three they discover their connection to...



Eh. As long as they don't try to push that narrative as the default.


Incenjucar said:


> This also helps create the "dip" story of turning away from temptation before it was too late, but still knowing a thing or two.



Absolutely.


Henadic Theologian said:


> It does screw up the flavour, the choice should be at level 1.



Not really. It fits just as well.


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## Henadic Theologian (Jan 4, 2023)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I think I prefer it for the warlock, and I think it probably improves the sorcerer, as well.
> 
> For the warlock, this means that the warlock is actually doing magic stuff before they get their big patron power boost or whatever, and it frees up the flavor a bit. I can more satisfyingly make warlocks who are ritual magicians first, and who eventually use that knowledge and skill to gain power through rituals of invocation with an otherworldly being.
> 
> ...




 That would explain HOW a Warlock gains access to a Patron if they at least a bit of a Magician in the first place, just some basic magic.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jan 4, 2023)

Henadic Theologian said:


> That would explain HOW a Warlock gains access to a Patron if they at least a bit of a Magician in the first place, just some basic magic.



Right, and anyone who prefers the (imo terrible as game lore) story of the warlock getting every little bit of power from the patron directly like a power line to a house, can just say that the warlock just gets spells and a boon at the start, and has to grow into the rest of their power.


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## Vaalingrade (Jan 4, 2023)

Except that's counter to the premise where you go to the Patron _because_ you don't have magic.


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## Yaarel (Jan 4, 2023)

Tales and Chronicles said:


> Pretty easily:
> 
> Sorcerer: 1st mysterious power coming from within. Begin with spellcasting, font of magic and metamagic.
> 3rd level -> Awakening (you discover the true source of you powers).
> ...



When the Sorcerous Origin is known, and isnt mysterious?

You know your family descends from a specific origin.

What does the level 1 concept look like?


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## Yaarel (Jan 4, 2023)

The solution is: 

Grant a Subclass choice at level 1 − but dont require the player to commit to it.

At level 3, a feature expresses a commitment to the Subclass.


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## Yaarel (Jan 4, 2023)

GMforPowergamers said:


> maybe your choice of patron just isn't the subclass... like I don't know if domain is based on god by this write up



Yeah.

If Hexblade is the subclass at level 3.

The choice of Patron is at level 1.

Feyblade, Hellblade, etcetera.


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## Incenjucar (Jan 4, 2023)

Yaarel said:


> When the Sorcerous Origin is known, and isnt mysterious?
> 
> You know your family descends from a specific origin.
> 
> What does the level 1 concept look like?



The sorcerer version of the first half of Disney's Hercules.


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## Vaalingrade (Jan 4, 2023)

It's kind of sad that we're doing all this mental work to justify this move that exists just to condescend to new players.

"Oh, honey, you want to have your pact-based character know and understand what the core of their character is at level 1? Bless your heart. Why don't you play with this cantrip for a couple of sessions and try not to hurt yourself. _Then_ maybe you'll be ready for big boy choices."


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## Bill Zebub (Jan 5, 2023)

Vaalingrade said:


> It's kind of sad that we're doing all this mental work to justify this move that exists just to condescend to new players.




I've been playing for 40 years and I prefer delaying subclass choices.  I often start playing a new character without having put a lot of thought into who he/she is and would rather have a couple of levels to figure that out. 




Vaalingrade said:


> "Oh, honey, you want to have your pact-based character know and understand what the core of their character is at level 1? Bless your heart. Why don't you play with this cantrip for a couple of sessions and try not to hurt yourself. _Then_ maybe you'll be ready for big boy choices."




A similarly condescending satire could be written about people who think it's "mental work" to do any of this.


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## Vaalingrade (Jan 5, 2023)

Bill Zebub said:


> A similarly condescending satire could be written about people who think it's "mental work" to do any of this.



I kind of doubt anyone posted their ideas with literally no thought. But sure, go ahead and insult everyone in the thread trying to get a shot in at me.


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## Bill Zebub (Friday at 3:34 AM)

Vaalingrade said:


> I kind of doubt anyone posted their ideas with literally no thought. But sure, go ahead and insult everyone in the thread trying to get a shot in at me.




Even better, we could all desist from mocking other people. Including game designers.


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