# Owen KC Stephens' Tabletop RPG Truths



## TarionzCousin (Jun 8, 2020)

Wow. 

Sad and harsh but very informative. Thanks for posting this, Russ.


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## Von Ether (Jun 8, 2020)

Can't argue with those tidbits.


 In fact a half hour later someone in social media posted, [paraphrase] "How do I improve my homebrew 'cause money is tight."  Scrolled down and, yep, someone was pointing the OP to a pirate site.


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## univoxs (Jun 9, 2020)

Mostly Cynical. Which is fine and actually a little refreshing in a way. I was taking these as opinions and not facts, then he said they are facts and I re-read them. I suppose I have to take his word that they are all facts because I have no professional experience in the industry. Defiantly some valid concerns here. Some of these give me the feeling that he does not like his job right now, which if true, is too bad as I am sure he has worked very hard to get where he is. Someone should maybe tell him how much joy they have experienced using the products he has brought into the world. I can see how negative feedback can pile up. I am glad not to experience that kind of scrutiny.


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## James Jacobs (Jun 9, 2020)

If you have a favorite RPG writer, telling them how much joy their work has brought you is both the easiest and most effective way you have to brighten that writer's day. I've worked with Owen for years, and as depressing as his facts are... that doesn't change them from being true.

And to Owen if you're reading this—love ya man! You continue to be an inspiration and a powerful force for good in the industry! You even made me like dwarves!


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## Dungeonosophy (Jun 9, 2020)

Wow, tell us how you really feel KC! Don't hold back now!

But seriously, frankness is a rare quality. Keepin' it real. Thanks for your courage!


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## Mercador (Jun 9, 2020)

And that's why I'm an IT professional instead.


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## TheSword (Jun 9, 2020)

I guess this reminds me that it’s easier to tear down than build and it’s easier to criticize than it is to create.

I am truly in awe of a lot of the products I buy when I see how much effort goes into them.

I wonder if prolific use of Kickstarter in the RPG community has caused ‘fans’ to feel a sense of entitlement or ownership that they carry over to non-fan-pre-funded works.

To be clear, I don’t think that is acceptable I just wonder if this is a newer phenomenon or if it has always been the case.


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## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2020)

It's like the old joke:

Want to make a million in RPGs?  Start with $2 million.

Thanks for posting that, Morrus.


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## Von Ether (Jun 9, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I wonder if prolific use of Kickstarter in the RPG community has caused ‘fans’ to feel a sense of entitlement or ownership that they carry over to non-fan-pre-funded works.
> 
> To be clear, I don’t think that is acceptable I just wonder if this is a newer phenomenon or if it has always been the case.




Nope, it's not just kickstarter.  Re: That Executor SSD death threat was when Owen was working on d20 Star Wars.


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## MGibster (Jun 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Tabletop RPG books are not overpriced. They are specialty technical creative writing social interaction manuals. At double the current prices, they would not be overpriced. This is why most TTRPG creators leave the industry. Along with constant fan harassment.




I agree with RPG books not being overpriced.  Most RPG books today are beautifully produced and better edited than what I had in the 80s and 90s.   I am saddened that so many people leave the industry because of harassment.  I'm passionate about what I love but I don't need to be a turd about it if a company chooses to go in a direction I'm not a fan of.


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## Tyler Pickering (Jun 9, 2020)

I was sad when Owen left Paizo, I enjoyed his personality and was my favorite guest on the old Paizo podcasts with Dan. I don't get the feeling that much or anything that he wrote is actually not true.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jun 9, 2020)

Mercador said:


> And that's why I'm an IT professional instead.



Exactly. Soul-crushing as it is, bills get paid, 401k's fill up, kids go to college etc etc.


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## Tyler Pickering (Jun 9, 2020)

James Jacobs said:


> If you have a favorite RPG writer, telling them how much joy their work has brought you is both the easiest and most effective way you have to brighten that writer's day. I've worked with Owen for years, and as depressing as his facts are... that doesn't change them from being true.
> 
> And to Owen if you're reading this—love ya man! You continue to be an inspiration and a powerful force for good in the industry! You even made me like dwarves!




Interestingly enough James Jacobs I would consider you my favorite writer for TTRPG and I've asked you more than once when we are going to see another AP written by you. Watching Owen talk about Starfinder on the podcast is what got me into Starfinder.


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## LordEntrails (Jun 9, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I wonder if prolific use of Kickstarter in the RPG community has caused ‘fans’ to feel a sense of entitlement or ownership that they carry over to non-fan-pre-funded works.
> 
> To be clear, I don’t think that is acceptable I just wonder if this is a newer phenomenon or if it has always been the case.



Agree with @Von Ether

This 'attitude' has been prevalent in RPGs since at least the 80's. You can see it evidenced in hundreds or thousands of posts on this site alone.


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## Laurefindel (Jun 9, 2020)

This is truly sad.

And the fact that none of these affirmations shocked me  - or surprised me - somehow makes it worse. Not even the death threats for being fat. The super star destroyer one made me raise an eyebrow, but then I realised we're talking about Star Wars... Fandom is weird.

But through all this yuk, I find this one particularly cruel:



Morrus said:


> Impostor syndrome is hugely common in the TTRPG industry for two reasons. One: Studying and modifying RPGs often appeals to socially awkward shut ins who become broken professionals. Two: There's a sense that if you were a REAL professional you could afford a house, and insurance, and a retirement account, but that's not true for 99.9% of TTRPG professionals.




Throughout the whole thing, you get blamed, stressed, harassed, threatened, and abused in so many ways, for being something you come to doubt that you can be.

If there is one positive thing about the whole thing: it makes me look at those patreon banners differently...

'findel


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## QuentinGeorge (Jun 9, 2020)

Well, that was depressing.

(And, no doubt accurate).

Just remember the next time that you endorse piracy cos "it's just a big corporation" or ask "why should I pay 50 dollars for a RPG book", remember whose hard effort you are dismissing.


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## EthanSental (Jun 9, 2020)

How is his one per week rpg for a few different games systems going?  Maybe he’s burned out at all the work he committed to for it and not as much money as he thinks it should be....and probably be correct!


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 9, 2020)

Mercador said:


> And that's why I'm an IT professional instead.




Or any other sort of professional or skilled worker.

If there is no money in RPGs - plus fan abuse - then why persist with the job? At some point it needs to be accepted that a wiser choice of employment needs to be made. Enduring decades of low income and internet insults does not rational sense.

George Thorogood got it right: "Get a haircut, and get a real job."

(NB: This is not an attack on people in the RPG "industry". This is not saying that working in RPGs is not a real job. This is simply saying that there is no logical reason, if you have legitimate skills that can translate into higher pay and better conditions, that you don't leave this "industry" for something more rewarding. After all, freelancing is still possible even if you have a job with a real income.)


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## MaskedGuy (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> Or any other sort of professional or skilled worker.
> 
> If there is no money in RPGs - plus fan abuse - then why persist with the job? At some point it needs to be accepted that a wiser choice of employment needs to be made. Enduring decades of low income and internet insults does not rational sense.
> 
> ...




Its the whole problem with doing job you love. That said, that post feels kinda hypocritical if you buy any rpg products since you can't really expect rpg developers and writers do great quality as sidejob :/


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## dunlin (Jun 9, 2020)

As a 10-year-old kid living in early 2000s Poland, as a birthday gift I got a Warhammer FRP rulebook and a set of dice. We were living frugally, and for RPG's it was all I could afford - I skipped all adventure modules or the RPG zine that used to be published back then. But the basic rulebook was everything I really needed. I played and ran games, I read the book many times until the covers started to fall apart. I wasn't a rich kid, but I had fun.

Affordability is a virtue of RPGs. The books shouldn't be more expensive.


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## TheSword (Jun 9, 2020)

Let’s be honest the rpg books (or even more so their pdf copies for companies that release that way like Paizo) are incredibly cheap for the amount of time that goes into using them. I can’t think of a single book I’ve ever owned that’s been referenced as much as my 5e players handbook or 1e Pathfinder rulebook. 

For a campaign that lasts 18 months and we’ll play 8 hours a month. With five people. Even a luxury hardback Campaign at say £40 costs about 6 pence per hour of play per person. I don’t believe I know any hobbies that cost less than that.

The actual written creation part of the hobby is only a fraction of the money I spend on the game including minis, sound effects, patreon’s for maps, dm screens, d&d beyond subscriptions and electronic modules for it. I guarantee someone is making money out of the hobby, it just doesn’t sound like that someone is the writers, which is a real shame.

Speaking of Warhammer FRP I’m on the discord servers fro WFRP 4E and some of the writers engage with fans there. Same for Paizo and I feel like it encourages a greater respect as it hammers home that the writers are people, with their own opinions and feelings. It is a real privilege to hear from the designers and writers themselves if they have time to spare it - that always impressed me a lot.

I also do believe that some writers have hurt the industry as a whole by taking advantage of the crowdfunding option not being honest... I specifically refer to Fire Mountain Games. Where fan support is harvested for financial resources and then taken advantage of. These individuals hurt writers as a whole as it encourages skepticism and distrust.

I suspect the money situation is locked into the industry and I don’t really see how it can be changed unless writers can get better control over the businesses that publish their work. On the other hand I suspect most of us can be a little bit nicer in the forums when we are critiquing what people write.


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Jun 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Fantasy and scifi art has sexualized women for decades, so many pro artists assume that's what you want. Explaining otherwise takes more words that describing the art piece. I had to go with "No skin should be exposed except on the face." It was 75% effective.




Oh My God Save Us From This Bigotry Disguised As Politically Correctness.

EDIT:

Oh My God Save Me From What I Humbly Consider An Hardly Credible As Sincere Expression Of Politically Correctness

Or, in other words, to show women skin is not to sexualize women. Sexualization depends upon what kind of connotation you give to the subject. Maybe is a matter of culture. In Italy we are sourrounded by art and many of this artistic expressions involves women body.
Would you say that this is "sexualized woman"?




I stop here 'cause I'm going off topic. I know. But I was very impressed by the "No skin should be exposed except on the face." statement.


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## TheSword (Jun 9, 2020)

What I will say is, taking to heart the outrageous views of a fringe of people who clearly don’t live by the same social norm, who think it acceptable to send death threats, or belittle women, or are homophobic is a fools errand. It sounds like he did the right thing and corrected them but letting it bring you down or equating the outliers with the majority of fans doesn’t help. 

I work in public service and my team and I are constantly amazed by the outrageous things some rare individuals expect or say and think are perfectly normal. I could use a quote about the price of free speech but I prefer Bronn of the Blackwaters more eloquent... “There’s no cure for being a...”


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## Stefano Rinaldelli (Jun 9, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I suspect the money situation is locked into the industry and I don’t really see how it can be changed unless writers can get better control over the businesses that publish their work.




RPG products needs ART. This is a great problem for a writer who wants to publish his work with Kickstarter. No matter the goodness of your concept, you still need a pro artist who decides to believe in you or still need some money to invest to create a pair of illustration that captures the spirit of your work. Otherwise is unlikely that someone give you some money.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 9, 2020)

MaskedGuy said:


> Its the whole problem with doing job you love. That said, that post feels kinda hypocritical if you buy any rpg products since you can't really expect rpg developers and writers do great quality as sidejob :/




You don't really do logic very well, do you?

No, I am not being hypocritical. (Will you be calling me racist next?) What a fatuous statement. The "industry" clearly only supports a very small number of people on incomes that allow them to live. A normal person - not the sort of person who reads something and responds "hypocritical" to a straw man of his own creation - would therefore conclude that maybe he should be looking for a job in an industry where he and his family are no longer at risk of starving to death.

I made no comment about the quality of the products I buy (as you will note if you actually read what I wrote); I commented on a basic bit of life strategy which involves making sure you get paid enough to live.


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## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2020)

I think (as the article indicates) that pirating of content is the #1 cause/reason why it sucks to be in the industry.  (Today)


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## MGibster (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> George Thorogood got it right: "Get a haircut, and get a real job."




The main thrust of that song is that George stuck with doing what he loved and ended up more successful than his big brother Bob who "has a haircut and has a real job."


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## Morrus (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> Or any other sort of professional or skilled worker.
> 
> If there is no money in RPGs - plus fan abuse - then why persist with the job? At some point it needs to be accepted that a wiser choice of employment needs to be made. Enduring decades of low income and internet insults does not rational sense.
> 
> George Thorogood got it right: "Get a haircut, and get a real job."



There are many reasons to do a job, other than money. Why be a teacher or a nurse? Why be a writer? Why be an artist?


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## DammitVictor (Jun 9, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> I think (as the article indicates) that pirating of content is the #1 cause/reason why it sucks to be in the industry.  (Today)




It is really, really not. And... as much as it sucks to compare the number of people downloading your work illegally to the number of people paying good money for it, the latter number is the only number that matters in an economic sense-- those huge number of downloads are not _lost sales_, because there isn't a pirate in existence who could afford to legally purchase a _small fraction_ of what they illegally download and the people who uploaded them in the first place did purchase them legally. 

If you imagine that a tenth of a percent of the people who illegally download your work go on to purchase it, or to purchase something else of yours-- and I reckon that a _conservative estimate_-- and you compare the number of legal sales to the number of illegal downloads again, you'll see that a substantial portion of your sales, _the only number that matters_, come from pirates.

The _economic_ reasons that it sucks to be in this industry-- leaving cultural attitudes aside-- is that the nature of our industry has always been that almost all of your customers want to be your competitors, and the technical limitations that prevented them from doing so are vanishing. The reason that this industry sucks is that for every professional trying to earn a living... they're competing with dozens or hundreds of people who _don't have to._

Retail sales for intellectual property, especially low margin IP like roleplaying books, are a dying business model. Blaming piracy only makes us feel better about it at the expense of putting off finding a model that will allow us to survive.


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## DammitVictor (Jun 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> There are many reasons to do a job, other than money. Why be a teacher or a nurse? Why be a writer? Why be an artist?




There are a lot of reasons to do any given job... but if it doesn't pay enough money to put food on your children, most people are going to have to find a job that does. That job may or may not leave us enough time and energy to pursue RPG publishing as a side hustle... and the people pursuing it as a side hustle are the reason people at the top of the industry are eating ramen.


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## Von Ether (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> This is simply saying that there is no logical reason, if you have legitimate skills that can translate into higher pay and better conditions, that you don't leave this "industry" for something more rewarding. After all, freelancing is still possible even if you have a job with a real income.)




If you're full time RPG writer, those skills only lead to other writing type jobs afternoon much better.

But most freelancers are part time with day jobs anyway, and most of them burn out and quit anyway. 

Regardless, the real point is that things need to change for the health of the industry and the people working in it.


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 9, 2020)

Dragon Magazine in the 80s paid more per word for article submissions than most RPG companies pay _today. _ I have many friends who derive at least part of their income from tabletop gaming. Their experience lines up with what is written here. 

The takeaway? 

I've never attempted to monetize my hobbies and am infinitely happier for it.


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## Ghost2020 (Jun 9, 2020)

I used to be a graphic artist. I've done freelancing and worked as a house artist. Both were difficult, lots of harsh criticism and downright rude people.
The money was not good, at all, but i loved the creative process and seeing a project come alive.

I can relate to a large chunk of this. I did eventually decide to change careers as I wasn't making much more than my part time job that I had stocking grocery shelves.

I admire, and respect the people in this industry to lengths they'll never know. I have purchased thousands and thousands of books over the years to show my support. I am so thankful that this industry and hobby exists, it has given me life long friendships, memories, ideas, inspiration and joy without limit.

It breaks my heart that artists and designers struggle. I have musician friends and they make their songs and albums out of the love of the music and the craft. They have accepted it will never make them any more money than they can earn playing in weekend cover bands. 

Hopefully we'll arrive at some kind of society where art based jobs are sure fire career choices, someday.

Until then i will buy gorgeous hardcover books, well designed PDFs, accessories, and play as often as I can (which isn't too often).


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 9, 2020)

Charge more for books and you lose sales.  Don't charge enough for books and you can't pay most of your employees a decent wage.  Not sure being an RPG writer is any kind of valid career choice for most who desire to do that kind of work.  Same for most kind of artists.  I have an acquaintance who is an artist, no real commercial appear to his art, but he soldiers on all the while complaining that he should be supported by the tax payer.


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## TwoSix (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> Or any other sort of professional or skilled worker.
> 
> If there is no money in RPGs - plus fan abuse - then why persist with the job? At some point it needs to be accepted that a wiser choice of employment needs to be made. Enduring decades of low income and internet insults does not rational sense.
> 
> George Thorogood got it right: "Get a haircut, and get a real job."



Yup.  That's why I thank my lucky stars every day that I don't have real talent in any sort of creative field; I can't imagine going through the agony of feeling like I had to pursue an actual vocation that it's almost impossible to monetize.


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## Morrus (Jun 9, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Charge more for books and you lose sales.  Don't charge enough for books and you can't pay most of your employees a decent wage.  Not sure being an RPG writer is any kind of valid career choice for most who desire to do that kind of work.  Same for most kind of artists.  I have an acquaintance who is an artist, no real commercial appear to his art, but he soldiers on all the while complaining that he should be supported by the tax payer.



It’s not _quite_ that simplistic, as unit sales isn’t the only metric of profitability, and there is definitely a viable market for expensive luxury RPG products, just like there is for expensive luxury cars. Like with most things, there’s a ton of factors.


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## MGibster (Jun 9, 2020)

Ghost2020 said:


> I used to be a graphic artist. I've done freelancing and worked as a house artist. Both were difficult, lots of harsh criticism and downright rude people.




I've got a project I need a good graphic designer for.  I can't actually pay you for your services, but think of the exposure you'll get!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> It’s not _quite_ that simplistic, as unit sales isn’t the only metric of profitability, and there is definitely a viable market for expensive luxury RPG products, just like there is for expensive luxury cars. Like with most things, there’s a ton of factors.




Sure.  There are people who will gladly pay high prices for great books, but IME those are the outliers in the quite...frugal RPG community.


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## Morrus (Jun 9, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Sure.  There are people who will gladly pay high prices for great books, but IME those are the outliers in the quite...frugal RPG community.



Well, any statement can be answered with "yes, but"; the point I was making was that the _market_ exists. Beadle & Grimm, Invisible Sun, the C7 Enemy Within set, there is a viable market. Simply saying that increasing the price reduces sales oversimplifies the issue, because unit sales isn't always the only factor.


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## TheSword (Jun 9, 2020)

I do think Patreon is a very smart way of making sure creatives get properly rewarded in some fields. I support a couple of map designing artists for $2 - $8 dollars a month and these guys have thousands of followers. They must be taking $10k a month as a minimum and I’m happy to see the rewarded because they are doing something original and in demand. They also take it extremely seriously and have put the effort in and extra materials to make this a full time living. It is by no means easy.

It seems a shame that good writers don’t seem to be getting anywhere near this. Perhaps we just value the skill of writing less than the skill of drawing because it’s seen as more accessible. I’m constantly blown away by the work done by neutral party, two minute tabletop and heroic maps.


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## LordEntrails (Jun 9, 2020)

MaskedGuy said:


> Its the whole problem with doing job you love. That said, that post feels kinda hypocritical if you buy any rpg products since you can't really expect rpg developers and writers do great quality as sidejob :/





dunlin said:


> Affordability is a virtue of RPGs. The books shouldn't be more expensive.





Morrus said:


> There are many reasons to do a job, other than money. Why be a teacher or a nurse? Why be a writer? Why be an artist?





Von Ether said:


> Regardless, the real point is that things need to change for the health of the industry and the people working in it.




All of these make me strongly believe that the RPG community does not deserve Quality RPG products. In short, we as a community do not value (as exhibited by the price we are willing to pay, the way we treat the creators, and our willingness to pirate) what the industry creates. The reason we have the quality products we do have is because of creators who love what they create more than they demand a fair wage.

One might think this could easily be solved by the creators simply refusing to create for less anymore. And that might help. But from a consumer point of view, their are already more quality RPG products available today than most consumers will use in their lifetime.

This is not a new issue. Artists and those who chose to make a living off the entertainment and good will of others have always struggled. And they always will in any non-socialist (or similar) system. 2000 years ago their were very few artists (using the term as a catch-all for a loosely defined demographic) because it took somewhere near 90% of the population to create the food for a population to live on. With a need for governance and force or arms, that left little for any time of artist, academic, etc.

Now in most societies it takes what, less than 5% of the population to feed the rest? That is where our advances in science, medicine, technology, and the growth of the arts comes from. And, the intangibles or Art are still much less designed by society than science, medicine, and technology. Maybe they shouldn't be, but they are. And given the thousands of years of human experience showing that in general (yes I'm sure their are exceptions) they always will be.

Artists, and RPG creators, should be well aware that if they chose that career to provide for themselves they will always be on the edge. (Sure, they may hit it big, but that is the very rare exception, not the norm.)


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## Morrus (Jun 9, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I do think Patreon is a very smart way of making sure creatives get properly rewarded in some fields. I support a couple of map designing artists for $2 - $8 dollars a month and these guys have thousands of followers. They must be taking $10k a month as a minimum and I’m happy to see the rewarded because they are doing something original and in demand. They also take it extremely seriously and have put the effort in and extra materials to make this a full time living. It is by no means easy.



Thats _very_ hard to do though. There are a few making bank of Patreon, but 99% of RPG Patreon makes very little.


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## MGibster (Jun 9, 2020)

I call into question the idea that the RPG community is cheap, uh, consciously frugal. Where does this idea come from?


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> There are many reasons to do a job, other than money. Why be a teacher or a nurse? Why be a writer? Why be an artist?



No doubt.

And, if you do that, then you *don't complain* about the lack of financial rewards. (That said, being a teacher or a nurse, using your two examples, can be financially rewarding in many countries. They offer solid career paths which is something quite rare in most industries.)


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## Umbran (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> This is simply saying that there is no logical reason...




When did you come by the misapprehension that humans are a species driven (or eaven heaviliy influenced) by logic?


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## Morrus (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> No doubt.
> 
> And, if you do that, then you *don't complain* about the lack of financial rewards.



Wow.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 9, 2020)

MGibster said:


> The main thrust of that song is that George stuck with doing what he loved and ended up more successful than his big brother Bob who "has a haircut and has a real job."



Yes, but how often does that happen? As with the acting game, those who succeed in music are few and far between.

Life is about making choices and those choices have consequences. If you make bad choices, correct those bad choices, and one of the bad choices you can make is your vocation and its related industry.


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## Umbran (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> And, if you do that, then you *don't complain* about the lack of financial rewards.




If you are taking your dream job... and it isnt' clear there's a market for it?  Maybe.

But if you are doing a job we all recognize is desperately needed, needs significant training, and our society depends on getting done?  Then you get to complain.  So, teachers totally get to complain that they get paid dirt.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 9, 2020)

Von Ether said:


> If you're full time RPG writer, those skills only lead to other writing type jobs afternoon much better.
> 
> But most freelancers are part time with day jobs anyway, and most of them burn out and quit anyway.
> 
> Regardless, the real point is that things need to change for the health of the industry and the people working in it.





It simply has to be accepted that the "industry" is neither large enough nor profitable enough to support a large number of properly-paid employees. That's not going to change unless, overnight, the size of the industry suddenly explodes.

That said, there seems to be money being made in turning RPGs into other forms of content, as we see with the success of Critical Role and Acquisitions Inc, to name but two.  But writing for RPGs? That seems to be a poor choice of career for the overwhelming majority of people who want to monetise their hobby.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Jun 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> There are 65 people in the Origins Hall of Fame. Most fans can't name 5 of them. Most creators can't name 10. They are overwhelmingly (though not quite entirely) white men.




So, I didn't think this was true! I thought I'd get at least 40.

Then I made a mental list.

And checked the following website:






						Hall of Fame — The Academy of Adventure Gaming Arts & Design
					






					www.originsawards.net
				




16 definitely (as in, of course). Another .... 5 or 6 I'm pretty sure, maybe. There's others that I'm like .... I should know this, but ...

Man, that's not good. Time to hit the books.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 9, 2020)

Umbran said:


> If you are taking your dream job... and it isnt' clear there's a market for it?  Maybe.
> 
> But if you are doing a job we all recognize is desperately needed, needs significant training, and our society depends on getting done?  Then you get to complain.  So, teachers totally get to complain that they get paid dirt.




Teachers might get paid dirt in your country but that's not true in many other countries - certainly not my home country (Australia) and the other country where I have spent most of my expat life (Singapore). I'm not even sure it's true in most other countries - the USA is an outlier in so many ways.

But I wasn't talking about teaching; I was talking about writing for RPGs, getting paid very little, and then complaining about it even though it's been known for a very long time that there is no money to be made in this hobby pretending to be an industry.

At some point, if you know that the consequence of trying to work in the RPG industry is that you are going to starve unless you get _really_ lucky (true of almost every creative endeavour), then you make a wiser choice of your career path.

Choices have consequences - especially in the context of one's career and livelihood.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 9, 2020)

Umbran said:


> When did you come by the misapprehension that humans are a species driven (or eaven heaviliy influenced) by logic?




Two straw men in a row, Umbran.

The article under discussion is about the consequences of a poor career choice. Cause. Effect. There's some logic at work there. 

So even if you say that many humans are not driven by logic, logic is also unavoidable in the sense that choices have consequences and causes have effects. That's a simply logical progression.


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## Umbran (Jun 9, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> Choices have consequences - especially in the context of one's career and livelihood.




And... we are supposed to _accept the consequences quietly when they are unfair_?  Is that your point?

Are you of the opinion that most folks even have the ability to really know the consequences when they make decisions on professional direction?  As if we all have ready access to people who will lay it all out for us?  Because... that isn't a thing.  Most of us don't have a lot of information when we make a professional choice - we learn as we go.



> So even if you say that many humans are not driven by logic, logic is also unavoidable in the sense that choices have consequences and causes have effects. That's a simply logical progression.




You are abusing the term "logic". 

Money is a human construct, not a natural law.  How people get paid is a human decision, not some aspect of physics.  Thus, the flow of money to game designers and teachers and everyone else is driven not by "logic" but by human decisions, which are not all that logic-driven most of the time.


----------



## TheSword (Jun 9, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Thats _very_ hard to do though. There are a few making bank of Patreon, but 99% of RPG Patreon makes very little.




I suspect 99% of DM guild makes very little as well.

2 years ago I wouldn’t have dreamed of spending £20 a month on Patreon but nonetheless things change.

I do see that most of the top 10 rpg Patreon’s are producing maps, tokens and other resources. and that writers don’t feature highly - with yours as a noticeable exception.

However to look at even Owen KC Stephens page as an example it has two short videos a minute or two long and a short pdf. 

If I contrast that to some of the map designers who are producing 2-4 unique maps a month with 3-5 alternate versions each. Plus the asset packs they used for them, commentary, advice, pdf adventure ideas etc. I think some of the writers need to dramatically up their content if they want anywhere need the amount of support that the guys taking $10k+ are making.

If writers save their best work for publishers that will then screw them over (intentionally or unintentionally) then they cannot expect strong following on Patreon.


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## DaveMage (Jun 9, 2020)

FaerieGodfather said:


> There are a lot of reasons to do any given job... but if it doesn't pay enough money to put food on your children, most people are going to have to find a job that does.




Please don't put food on your children.


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## Laurefindel (Jun 9, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I've got a project I need a good graphic designer for.  I can't actually pay you for your services, but think of the exposure you'll get!



eh, haven't I heard that one enough... We rarely see the "I've got art and need a professionally-designed RPG to go with it. I can't actually pay you for your services, but think of the exposure you'll get!" however.


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## MGibster (Jun 9, 2020)

LordEntrails said:


> All of these make me strongly believe that the RPG community does not deserve Quality RPG products. In short, we as a community do not value (as exhibited by the price we are willing to pay, the way we treat the creators, and our willingness to pirate) what the industry creates. The reason we have the quality products we do have is because of creators who love what they create more than they demand a fair wage.




How much should we be willing to pay for RPGs?  I'm one of those people who feels as though I get a pretty good value for games these days.  I recently paid $50 for the Alien rpg and it was well worth the money, and hell, I would have happily paid $60.  But if the price was $100?  No way.  I could certainly afford it but I wouldn't be willing to pay that much.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jun 9, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> Please don't put food on your children.



When my son's were at that certain age, they put food on themselves...


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## Retreater (Jun 9, 2020)

As someone who has done "work for hire" for an RPG company in the past, it still hasn't stopped me from wanting to design and write. However, it's not my main job. It's a hobby, like a guy who plays dive bars for free beer (which I've also done). I don't envy those who try to do it professionally and make a living from it. 
Honestly, I'd be fine going in the opposite direction. While I can appreciate high production values, I don't need them. Cut the full color art. Cut the glossy pages and incredibly padded word count. You're not trying to appeal to casual buyers on the shelf of a Waldenbooks or Sears anymore.


----------



## eyeheartawk (Jun 9, 2020)

You can always go the Siembieda route and just, like, ask for your fans to just give you money. Worked for him.


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## Retreater (Jun 9, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> You can always go the Siembieda route and just, like, ask for your fans to just give you money. Worked for him.



I've bought my share of Palladium books, and TMNT was my first RPG. But nope, not going to do that. (Donating to a charity for a designer in need for medical bills, etc., is a very different case.)


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## LordEntrails (Jun 9, 2020)

MGibster said:


> How much should we be willing to pay for RPGs?  I'm one of those people who feels as though I get a pretty good value for games these days.  I recently paid $50 for the Alien rpg and it was well worth the money, and hell, I would have happily paid $60.  But if the price was $100?  No way.  I could certainly afford it but I wouldn't be willing to pay that much.



No idea. There are many ways to determine a product's price. And in the end it is market forces that (in our society) decide.

Are you willing to pay on hourly basis? Is RPG entertainment worth $2 per hour for you? Are you going to get 10 hours or 100 hours or more from the product?

Or perhaps the price should be determined by what the product price needs to be so that those involved make a living wage (whatever such a wage is)? You could simply take the number of books to be sold (say 2000 copies) and divide by all the costs (shipping, printing, etc) and the creator wages (2000 hours at $20/hr?) for their efforts and maybe that would be $150 each. (Other threads have done the math on this, no idea what it was/is.)

Or, do you compare the price to what you have paid before for similar items? This is generally the way I 'intuitively' judge value. Do you account for inflation? If so, that $10 book we bought in 1978 would cost about $40 in today's dollars, just for inflation alone.

Whatever "we" decide it is, "we" know by these statements and numerous others that the prices we currently pay are not resulting in the vast majority of creators being paid better than minimum wage.

Do we really feel that those RPG creators we feel produce quality products should be making less than a waiter/waitress?


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 9, 2020)

Retreater said:


> I've bought my share of Palladium books, and TMNT was my first RPG. But nope, not going to do that. (Donating to a charity for a designer in need for medical bills, etc., is a very different case.)




This was back in like 2006 during the "Crisis of Treachery" as Siembieda called it (_eye roll inducing, I know) _. He put out a call to elicit donations to save the company. Nominally you got a "limited" signed art print, that wasn't limited. 

I should also note that Palladium then years later repaid its loyal fanbase by absolutely ripping them off through that Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter mess.

So, yeah guys, there's your blueprint.


----------



## billd91 (Jun 9, 2020)

Umbran said:


> But if you are doing a job we all recognize is desperately needed, needs significant training, or our society depends on getting wants done?  Then you get to complain.




Honestly, without the edits above, it’s uncomfortably close to saying “some people should be poor and not get to complain about it”. I don’t care if a worker is mopping floors, flipping burgers, or delivering pizza - all of them fulfill functions the rest of us want done. They should certainly be able to complain if paid poverty wages, even if what they do isn’t desperately needed or require significant training.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 9, 2020)

Retreater said:


> As someone who has done "work for hire" for an RPG company in the past, it still hasn't stopped me from wanting to design and write. However, it's not my main job. It's a hobby, like a guy who plays dive bars for free beer (which I've also done). I don't envy those who try to do it professionally and make a living from it.
> Honestly, I'd be fine going in the opposite direction. While I can appreciate high production values, I don't need them. Cut the full color art. Cut the glossy pages and incredibly padded word count. You're not trying to appeal to casual buyers on the shelf of a Waldenbooks or Sears anymore.




Yeah, I think the game book I've gotten the most out of in the past several years is B&W with line art and no glossy paper.  I sometimes feel that most RPG books are more designed to be read that quickly used at the game table.  

I'm looking at Old School Essentials as new game to switch my campaign over to and I'm loving the amazingly clear layout designed with one goal, usability.  The entire set will run about 70 bucks to get and I'm OK with that.  But if I tell the group "hey, lets get a couple more core books of this system, 40 bucks each" and can hear the excuses already.


----------



## Grazzt (Jun 9, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Yeah, I think the game book I've gotten the most out of in the past several years is B&W with line art and no glossy paper. * I sometimes feel that most RPG books are more designed to be read that quickly used at the game table. *




Funny you say that. I saw a post somewhere recently (probably on here) where someone from WotC said pretty much that. It was related to DnDBeyond and how print books still make way more $$ by a mile than digital and even people that don't play buy the books so they are basically constructed in a way that makes them easy to read.


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## Morrus (Jun 9, 2020)

Retreater said:


> Cut the full color art. Cut the glossy pages and incredibly padded word count. You're not trying to appeal to casual buyers on the shelf of a Waldenbooks or Sears anymore.



This is terrible advice to aspiring publishers. Don't do this. For better or worse, presentation is incredibly important when trying to sell a book.


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## MGibster (Jun 9, 2020)

LordEntrails said:


> No idea. There are many ways to determine a product's price. And in the end it is market forces that (in our society) decide.




My question was how much should we be willing to pay for an RPG not what they should be priced at.  My question was prompted by your statement that what we were willing to pay for RPGs was one of the reasons you were beginning to think we didn't deserve quality products.  



> Do we really feel that those RPG creators we feel produce quality products should be making less than a waiter/waitress?




I'm not an industry insider, but I have been under the distinct impression that very few people make their primary living working on RPGs instead working on them part time.  This is certainly the case with many writers as well as even successful ones often have a day job.  I'll answer yes, I want RPG creators to be able to make a good living off of producing quality products.  But I don't know if the economic realities will allow very many people that opportunity.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 9, 2020)

Grazzt said:


> Funny you say that. I saw a post somewhere recently (probably on here) where someone from WotC said pretty much that. It was related to DnDBeyond and how print books still make way more $$ by a mile than digital and even people that don't play buy the books so they are basically constructed in a way that makes them easy to read.




Easy to read is good, but I've used some glossy beautiful books that were not very friendly at the table.  

Mostly modules that are put out today annoy me for that reason.  Sure pretty maps with backgrounds and all that are nice to look at, but give me old school maps that are blue or black with nothing to clutter them up.  Much more useful at the table.


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## TheSword (Jun 9, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Easy to read is good, but I've used some glossy beautiful books that were not very friendly at the table.
> 
> Mostly modules that are put out today annoy me for that reason.  Sure pretty maps with backgrounds and all that are nice to look at, but give me old school maps that are blue or black with nothing to clutter them up.  Much more useful at the table.




I think the reality is that with the advent of miniatures and online gaming, old school maps just don’t cut it anymore. All you need to do is see the forum responses when people do publish a map that isn’t suitable for minis or VTT it sours what is an otherwise great product. 

The quality and usability of the Mike Schley maps for instance as opposed to the Dyson Logos ones is streaks ahead (though Dyson Logos maps are fine for the DM and planning) or theatre of the mind. You can tell this too because DM Guild is full of 3rd parties producing battlemaps quality maps which are invariably platinum best sellers.

Theatre of the mind is not ubiquitous and with the explosion of VTT it is becoming less and less so I am sure.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 9, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I think the reality is that with the advent of miniatures and online gaming, old school maps just don’t cut it anymore. All you need to do is see the forum responses when people do publish a map that isn’t suitable for minis or VTT it sours what is an otherwise great product.
> 
> The quality and usability of the Mike Schley maps for instance as opposed to the Dyson Logos ones is streaks ahead (though Dyson Logos maps are fine for the DM and planning) or theatre of the mind. You can tell this too because DM Guild is full of 3rd parties producing battlemaps quality maps which are invariably platinum best sellers.
> 
> Theatre of the mind is not ubiquitous and with the explosion of VTT it is becoming less and less so I am sure.




For me its the opposite, when I'm trying to build a map out of tiles or on the mondomap a clean overhead map is very useful.  An isometric view with all kinds of colors and whatnot hinders my efforts.  But I see what you are saying.


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## DammitVictor (Jun 10, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> You can always go the Siembieda route and just, like, ask for your fans to just give you money. Worked for him.




Well, here's the thing: _it worked for him_. Economically speaking, there are two separate issues at work, here: creators need to be adequately paid for the work they do, and consumers need to understand and expect that the quality and quantity of _the entire industry_ depends on how much they're willing to pay for products they enjoy.

A lot of the problem here is that people are acting like this is only one issue. The retail sales business model for digital goods is becoming obsolete, and physical media as a means of distributing intellectual property is becoming a niche market.

There are customers in our industry who are willing to pay a lot more than the average to make products they want available-- even knowing that other people are "getting away" with paying less. There are customers who will happily pay more for a product if they know it enables other people to pay less. Crowdfunding business models actually encourage-- and capitalize on-- this behavior.



Flexor the Mighty! said:


> I'm looking at Old School Essentials as new game to switch my campaign over to and I'm loving the amazingly clear layout designed with one goal, usability.  The entire set will run about 70 bucks to get and I'm OK with that.  But if I tell the group "hey, lets get a couple more core books of this system, 40 bucks each" and can hear the excuses already.




I just bought the Box and the Tome... and yeah, I'm thinking about buying a few more copies of the Tome (1-2 at a time) for my table.

My ability to convince my group to purchase games took a major hit after I talked them into 5e. They like it fine, but they're still a little raw about shelling out for the core rulebooks for a system I decided I wasn't going to run again-- even if I ran it for _a year and a half_ before reaching that point.


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## Tyler Pickering (Jun 10, 2020)

You get so much of enjoyment out of an RPG for the 60$ the core book ends up costing. Way more than that 1700$ army that took you 600 hours to paint that paid for a GW employee to buy another BMW. ( I know a few of these guys, they aren't in anywhere close of the same boat as the RPG guys )


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## DaveMage (Jun 10, 2020)

Grazzt said:


> Funny you say that. I saw a post somewhere recently (probably on here) where someone from WotC said pretty much that. It was related to DnDBeyond and how print books still make way more $$ by a mile than digital and even people that don't play buy the books so they are basically constructed in a way that makes them easy to read.




I have tons of things I'll never run but enjoy reading.  Sometimes it's the only way a GM gets to go on an adventure themselves.  

(And, good to see you, Scott.    )


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## Retreater (Jun 10, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> You get so much of enjoyment out of an RPG for the 60$ the core book ends up costing. Way more than that 1700$ army that took you 600 hours to paint that paid for a GW employee to buy another BMW. ( I know a few of these guys, they aren't in anywhere close of the same boat as the RPG guys )



I also enjoy that 600 hours of painting.


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## Tyler Pickering (Jun 10, 2020)

Retreater said:


> I also enjoy that 600 hours of painting.



 I don't mind it but when the price keeps going up and up til a single figure can be 20-30$ it's getting a little out of hand.


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## MGibster (Jun 10, 2020)

Tyler Pickering said:


> I don't mind it but when the price keeps going up and up til a single figure can be 20-30$ it's getting a little out of hand.




In the last 25 years I've owned Warzone, Clan War, War Machine, Great Rail Wars, Battletech, more recently Star Wars Legion, and those are just the ones I can remember off the top of my head.  Some of those I listed no longer exist and others are difficult to find players for.  I agree that some of the individual GW miniatures are pretty pricey, but I'm confident I'll still be able to play some 40k five years from now.  GW has been one of the only miniatures game I've consistently been able to find others who play for pretty much my entire adult life.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 10, 2020)

James Jacobs said:


> I've worked with Owen for years, and as depressing as his facts are... that doesn't change them from being true.




Honestly I'd be delighted to have a large segment of game industry professionals tell me "Oh, that's not our experience at all."

But that hasn't been the reaction.



James Jacobs said:


> And to Owen if you're reading this—love ya man! You continue to be an inspiration and a powerful force for good in the industry! You even made me like dwarves!




Thanks James! Miss you, and everyone else.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 10, 2020)

EthanSental said:


> How is his one per week rpg for a few different games systems going?  Maybe he’s burned out at all the work he committed to for it and not as much money as he thinks it should be....and probably be correct!




As a result of the world exploding, I am a few weeks behind. I also had to move this week, from Indiana back to my hometown of Norman, OK.
Moving does not make it easy to catch up.
My expectation is I'll still get 52 products (well, 208, since it's 52 titles each for 4 game systems) out in 52 weeks, just not quite as evenly. But products are still coming out.
Am I burned out?
I did a product a week for 5 years before working for Paizo. I stayed at the Paizo offices until 2am more than once to get Starfinder out the door on deadline.
Normally burnout for me means no longer enjoying what I do, and/or no longer being able to do it. I produced nearly 3,000 words today alone, so I don't feel burned out.
What I DO feel is a need for the people stepping into the industry for the first time to be told some of what it's like, with a clarity I did not get from anyone in the 1990s when I started.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 10, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> (NB: This is not an attack on people in the RPG "industry". This is not saying that working in RPGs is not a real job. This is simply saying that there is no logical reason, if you have legitimate skills that can translate into higher pay and better conditions, that you don't leave this "industry" for something more rewarding. After all, freelancing is still possible even if you have a job with a real income.)




The point of this particular hashtag is to inform people just getting started.
As for why i am still here? Among other things, I think there is still hope things can improve.
And one of the things needed for that improvement is a clear and open conversation about some of the problems.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 10, 2020)

Stefano Rinaldelli said:


> Oh My God Save Us From This Bigotry Disguised As Politically Correctness.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> ...




You'll note I never said showing skin on a woman was sexualizing.
I said to to prevent artists from sending me art that DID sexualize woman, I had to tell them to show no skin.
Telling them not to sexualize the women, or to make them serious, or fierce, or realistic, never prevented the art I got from being sexualized.
To do that, to stop boob windows in full plate and fishnet on feudal noblewomen and stiletto heels on commoner women, and poses that catered purely to the cheesecake-at-best, I had to go so far as to say NO SKIN.
Nothing else got the message across.
But thanks for putting words in my mouth.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I do see that most of the top 10 rpg Patreon’s are producing maps, tokens and other resources. and that writers don’t feature highly - with yours as a noticeable exception.
> 
> However to look at even Owen KC Stephens page as an example it has two short videos a minute or two long and a short pdf.




My Patreon backs the writing of my blog articles, as the description notes. That's five posts a week. And higher backers get a collected pdf of all my monthly free content (blog posts, facebook posts, twitter, and so on, which runs between 10-25,000 words each month.

I'm quite satisfied with how my Patreon is growing.


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## DammitVictor (Jun 10, 2020)

Owen K.C. Stephens said:


> What I DO feel is a need for the people stepping into the industry for the first time to be told some of what it's like, with a clarity I did not get from anyone in the 1990s when I started.




As a two-time loser in the RPG industry... I appreciate the hell out of what you're doing here.


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## JLowder (Jun 10, 2020)

The vast majority of people who work in RPGs (or fiction or comics), as side gigs or as careers, are well aware that they could make much better money elsewhere. At one time or another, they probably have, when the freelance creative work was slow or they were between company jobs. (As I mentioned on one of Owen's Facebook threads, a few years back I did some website writing for a big local law firm; they paid me more to watch a few hours of training videos than I have made on months-long RPG projects for big game companies.) As others have suggested, the reason people stay is that they value the creative work. They also value the best parts of the community, which can be _amazing_, and that's both the design/publishing community _and_ the player/hobbyist community. Most of us are also aware of how fortunate we are to do the work we do.

Pointing out the harsher realities of the gig is not complaining so much as sharing the reality. 

It's important for people in the design community to hear that others have the same or similar experiences. Many people who work in the hobby are isolated a lot of the time. Even in companies such as Green Ronin and Chaosium, staff are scattered around the U.S. or the world. Knowing that others in the TTRPG community go through some of the same trials helps diminish that isolation.

It's important for people considering creative work of any kind to realize that it's more glamorous from the outside. I wish this kind of resource had existed when I was starting out, because it would have helped me avoid some mistakes that cost me years of my professional life and brought me quite close to leaving the industry.

It's important for the player and hobbyist communities to hear these observations because they might help you keep some things about the products you buy and the people who put them together in perspective. 'Nuff said there, I think.

There are more perspectives, of course, and I hope those will be shared, too, but women or people of color who speak up the way Owen is here face very different pushback than just someone casting their comments as whinging about money when they could just quit and make more in a different profession.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 10, 2020)

Umbran said:


> And... we are supposed to _accept the consequences quietly when they are unfair_?  Is that your point? (snip)




That's a positively Umbranesque conclusion that has nothing to do with what I wrote.

Price is a function of supply and demand. Demand for RPG writers is lower than the supply so the price has fallen. That's not unfair: That's a natural consequence of market forces. Until those market forces change, you cannot change the results. 

RPGs are around USD50 million at a wholesale level based on anecdotal numbers (and that is all we have). That's tiny. That's not a number that can support a lot of properly-paid people when all the other costs are taken into account. Until that number changes by an order of magnitude, the money simply isn't there. It has nothing to do with fairness: The money is either there or it isn't.

Except, of course, for people like Monte Cook _et al_ who have worked out a different and more successful model for their sections of the market.



> (snip) Are you of the opinion that most folks even have the ability to really know the consequences when they make decisions on professional direction?  As if we all have ready access to people who will lay it all out for us?  Because... that isn't a thing.  Most of us don't have a lot of information when we make a professional choice - we learn as we go. (snip)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 10, 2020)

Owen K.C. Stephens said:


> The point of this particular hashtag is to inform people just getting started.
> As for why i am still here? Among other things, I think there is still hope things can improve.
> And one of the things needed for that improvement is a clear and open conversation about some of the problems.



I'm glad you are doing it.

Others have over the years but maybe your more blunt outline of the consequences of choosing to work in game design will help more people realise that this is not a wise career choice.

As for things improving, until sales multiply at the wholesale level, there simply isn't enough money to pay people well - especially when people are prepared to work cheaply simply because they want to work in game design.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 10, 2020)

Retreater said:


> As someone who has done "work for hire" for an RPG company in the past, it still hasn't stopped me from wanting to design and write. However, it's not my main job. It's a hobby, like a guy who plays dive bars for free beer (which I've also done). I don't envy those who try to do it professionally and make a living from it. (snip)




Well said. 

That's the wisest response to the reality of the game design market.



> (snip) Honestly, I'd be fine going in the opposite direction. While I can appreciate high production values, I don't need them. Cut the full color art. Cut the glossy pages and incredibly padded word count. You're not trying to appeal to casual buyers on the shelf of a Waldenbooks or Sears anymore.




Personally, I would be happy to a return to the 2E era of B&W interiors with pencil art by Arnie Swekel and Glen Angus. I like, for example, the current use of B&W maps by Dyson Logos in the WotC products. They're so easy to reproduce at the table as a DM and, obviously, they're so much cheaper than the colour maps of so many other cartographers (that said, I love Mike Schley's colour work).

Of course, I am very likely in a small minority in terms of what I would like to see.


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## TheSword (Jun 10, 2020)

I’ll admit now I am confused after reading Owen’s responses. 

If these facts (and based on the experience I don’t think anyone disputes they are facts) were laid out to let consumers know that writers are having a tough time and to cut them some slack and start being more supportive then that makes a lot of sense. It may be the eye opener we need.

However if these are supposed to be words of wisdom from an experienced writer to budding new blood then the unrelentingly bleak outlook with zero constructive suggestions is fairly depressing. I would have thought this would have been an excellent opportunity to make some suggestions on how to get through it or improve rather than just try to put people off.

Don’t get me wrong we want people to go into a career with their eyes open, but if this is the approach to bringing new talent into the industry then how on earth is it supposed to grow, develop and improve. I would put money on the fact that the sexist attitudes aren’t coming from the new generation of writers we need to come through the ranks. 

Let’s have a bit more optimism.


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## clearstream (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> However if these are supposed to be words of wisdom from an experienced writer to budding new blood then the unrelentingly bleak outlook with zero constructive suggestions is fairly depressing. I would have thought this would have been an excellent opportunity to make some suggestions on how to get through it or improve rather than just try to put people off.
> 
> Don’t get me wrong we want people to go into a career with their eyes open, but if this is the approach to bringing new talent into the industry then how on earth is it supposed to grow, develop and improve. I would put money on the fact that the sexist attitudes aren’t coming from the new generation of writers we need to come through the ranks.



The intent came across to me more like your second comment, i.e. it is not aimed at discouraging new writers. Only forewarning them of some of the negatives so that they are more capable of navigating their profession, with some idea of the costs.

One could equally read many of his comments as critiques of capitalism in its relationship with culture.


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## TheSword (Jun 10, 2020)

clearstream said:


> The intent came across to me more like your second comment, i.e. it is not aimed at discouraging new writers. Only forewarning them of some of the negatives so that they are more capable of navigating their profession, with some idea of the costs.
> 
> One could equally read many of his comments as critiques of capitalism in its relationship with culture.




I’m not a writer and i know one of the criticisms raised is people not in the industry offering their opinions. However certainly in my industry we take bringing new people into it very seriously. Maybe the positives are so obvious that they don’t need to be discussed but I would be more interested to know what is being done to support to new talent, rather than hearing all the things that aren’t being done. If the answer is nothing, then don’t people in positions of power to take some responsibility and do something about it? I would include design leads for major rpg brands to be among those people.


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## Morrus (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I would include design leads for major rpg brands to be among those people.



That's basically two people. Maybe three or four if you're generous about the definition of a major brand.


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## JLowder (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I’m not a writer and i know one of the criticisms raised is people not in the industry offering their opinions. However certainly in my industry we take bringing new people into it very seriously.




All posts by every game designer or [insert your profession here] do not have to be recruitment copy for their industry. That's how unrealistic opinions of an industry or profession are born and fostered. And making public statements that reveal the harsh truths can be a way of helping inspire change.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## TheSword (Jun 10, 2020)

JLowder said:


> All posts by every game designer or [insert your profession here] do not have to be recruitment copy for their industry. That's how unrealistic opinions of an industry or profession are born and fostered. And making public statements that reveal the harsh truths can be a way of helping inspire change.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jim Lowder




Do those that have made it to the top of their profession have a responsibility to look out for support and encourage those starting out in it? 

I applaud people raising poor working conditions, whether safety, unfair contracting (which is what this sounds like) or unsatisfactory is work environments. However this is a leading figure at the second biggest company in our industry telling us things that a lot of you don’t seem very surprised about at all judging by the twitter feeds. I genuinely hope there will be a response from Paizo as a business as regards these issues. I always saw them as a pretty wholesome company that did right by there staff and now we are led to believe that they aren’t, and neither are any of the others?

Starting out as a musician, or actor or artist is also pretty tough and challenging, with terrible pay and lousy conditions. However successful musicians, artists and actors provide real support to people in those industries. I’m not seeing a lot of legs up from those who have made it among you. Maybe it’s just too soon and this will all come out.


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## JLowder (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> Do those that have made it to the top of their profession have a responsibility to look out for support and encourage those starting out in it?




Sure. Not with every post they make, though. And not necessarily in the way you demand. Posting about the harsh truths of an industry can certainly be part of looking out for those who are starting out.

You're likely not seeing the "legs up" because you are not in the industry or not looking very hard. There's mutual support in the tabletop industry, just like others arts communities. I've spent a lot of time fighting for better contract terms and have used every project I have worked on in any capacity since I left TSR in the early 90s to improve things for others. I answer all kinds of questions on fiction publishing for game companies and offer advice on best practices, whether I am working for them or not. (It's the right thing to do, and that's why I do it, but any time I spend on that stuff also undermines my pay rate. Same for everyone else. So when you suggest industry people champion work conditions and the like, do keep in mind that you tend not to get paid for those efforts.) I am hardly alone in offering this kind of support. Gen Con runs a brilliant Writers Symposium track of panels and critiques parallel to the main convention. Those resources exist at a lot of cons, staffed by pros, geared toward those who want to get a start in publishing. There are resources online, too.

Having worked for Paizo as a freelancer, they are, in my experience, a very good company. They cannot, however, change the fact that freelancers are a decentralized workforce or that the entire publishing industry has been tethered to a broken economic model for decades. They cannot change the expectations of consumers about the price point of RPGs or the fact that US culture frequently equates salary with your value as a person. Those are the sorts of things that Owen is addressing, not the more localized issues of a publisher offering underhanded contracts or not paying bills. So trying to turn Owen's discussion on Paizo somehow is way off the mark.

--Jim Lowder


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## lewpuls (Jun 10, 2020)

Spot on. I bailed out of the game industry in the early 80s because I had to make a living (in computers and teaching, ultimately). I especially remember having to stop writing for the RPG magazines because switched to buying all rights, which I refused to sell. But as a result I control the copyright of my work, not some company. And "work for hire" is a reason why I design games, not write RPG books.

Unfortunately, when we talk about RPGs, it's also the tail-end of the game industry in terms of dollars. And there are too many fanboys and fangirls willing to write at 2 cents a word in order to see themselves in print.

Contrast: in the heyday of the fiction pulps, writers were paid 1 to 2 cents a word, but in modern money that's something like 30 cents a word.

As soon as so many talked about websites as being "content", writers were doomed. Words became a commodity.


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## prabe (Jun 10, 2020)

lewpuls said:


> Contrast: in the heyday of the fiction pulps, writers were paid 1 to 2 cents a word, but in modern money that's something like 30 cents a word.
> 
> As soon as so many talked about websites as being "content", writers were doomed. Words became a commodity.




I'm not disagreeing with your larger point, but I think the economics have been screwed up since before the Internet; how long have SFWA and HWA considered "pro" rates to be $.05/word?


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## Shardstone (Jun 10, 2020)

This has been an illuminating conversation to read.

Despite the typo in my name, I recently graduated with honors + awards from a Masters program in English. I have run a successful Kickstarter for my RPG product that earned 1000% of its required goal. I have fully committed to writing as my art form. And this thread has just further proven to me that I will never be paid the money that I think my art is worth because people just don't value writers.

That's the bottom line of it. People don't value writers, authors, designers, etc, because many people, even if they won't readily admit this, don't think writing skill is worth all that much. They think because they are native speakers and can write a 5 paragraph essay that their writing ability is above average and that they don't need to go the extra mile. You have to be someone of impossible talent _and experience _in order to convince people that your written words are worth more than the average (and the average is quite low).

And then people will tell you that art isn't worth money and that you should accept being poor if you are an artist. Because they don't value you. They say they will, they'll cite their books and their collections and this and that, but they don't really value you like they do visual artists (of who are literally always in demand) or their figurine armies or their tokens and so on and so forth. 

Everything Owens has said I've either experienced or have expected (as I'm still quite new to the industry). But what amazes me is that I've experienced all of this in other fields that deal with the written word as well. Publishing, editing, so on and so forth, all of it leads to the same place, and that's undervalued work, rude clients, and a total lack of regard for the amount of training, skill, and ability it requires to make a clear, effective, concise, and _good _piece of writing.

If this comes off as elitist or snubby, I don't intend that. Much like Owen, I'm just stating a fact - writing is not valued in our culture(s).


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## Shardstone (Jun 10, 2020)

Oh, forgot to say this too - getting your foot in the door is impossible in the RPG industry. I ran a near 50K kickstarter and still can't get hired as a freelancer. Maybe when the book is 100% out things will change, but no one wants to give you a chance and it feels like working in the RPG industry is impossible if you aren't apart of the "Old Boys Club."


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 10, 2020)

FaerieGodfather said:


> Well, here's the thing: _it worked for him_. Economically speaking, there are two separate issues at work, here: creators need to be adequately paid for the work they do, and consumers need to understand and expect that the quality and quantity of _the entire industry_ depends on how much they're willing to pay for products they enjoy.
> 
> A lot of the problem here is that people are acting like this is only one issue. The retail sales business model for digital goods is becoming obsolete, and physical media as a means of distributing intellectual property is becoming a niche market.
> 
> ...




Did you get the advanced books as well?  I'm thinking of the box since the sections are split up and it makes usability by multiple players much easier.  But I'm also chea...frugal so the less expensive single book version is appealing.  Then again I love box sets...


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 10, 2020)

PointOfIsnpiration said:


> This has been an illuminating conversation to read.
> 
> Despite the typo in my name, I recently graduated with honors + awards from a Masters program in English. I have run a successful Kickstarter for my RPG product that earned 1000% of its required goal. I have fully committed to writing as my art form. And this thread has just further proven to me that I will never be paid the money that I think my art is worth because people just don't value writers.
> 
> ...




That's one way to look at it. I value quality writing but there is a limit to what I'm willing to pay for it, especially when I have shelves of books that do largely the same thing with some variations.


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## Umbran (Jun 10, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> That's a positively Umbranesque conclusion that has nothing to do with what I wrote.




In any communication, there are three texts - what you wanted to say, what you actually write on the page, and what the audience actually gets from it. 

I do not know what you actually intended to say, because I cannot read minds.  However, as to what you wrote - you said that choices have consequences, and that having made choices you *don't complain* about the consequences (bolding yours).    "Don't complain when the consequences are unfair," is merely a subset of the blanket, "don't complain about the consequences". 

That, I'm afraid, is real logic at work - if you claim a thing is overall true or correct, then any subset of that thing should also be true or correct.  This is not a weird conclusion*.  It is, dare I say it... a logical _consequence_... of what you wrote. 

Broad statements or generalizations often have inconvenient bits.  If this inconvenient bit wasn't what you intended, then the issue is in the broad statement, not me.





*If, "Umbranesque," turns out to be, "thoroughly logical," I'm okay with that.


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> However this is a leading figure at the second biggest company in our industry telling us things that a lot of you don’t seem very surprised about at all judging by the twitter feeds. I genuinely hope there will be a response from Paizo as a business as regards these issues. I always saw them as a pretty wholesome company that did right by there staff and now we are led to believe that they aren’t, and neither are any of the others?




I am not a Paizo employee. Haven't been for a year.
I am a freelance writer, developer, and consultant.
I am the Publisher for Rogue Genius Games. If you want to ask a game company to respond, the one I run is really the only reasonable option.

I am not discussing the business practices of any one game company--hopefully as evidenced that multiple people at multiple positions in the industry, who have worked for many different companies in many different positions, have responded in agreement with most of my observations.

As for how Paizo treated me, even in this article which collect my first sets of #RealGameIndustry posts, I note "I have been extraordinary lucky and well-treated in my RPG career. I love most of the companies and people I have worked with. It's just a harsh industry. "

Paizo is not the problem. WotC and Green Ronin and Steve Jackson Games and Kobold Publishing are not the problem. The problem is a series of decisions, changes, coping mechanisms, expectations, results and realities going back decades. No one company can do anything of note about them.

I strongly believe it in harsh in ways many people outside or just entering the industry have no idea. When I got my start in the 1990s, i had no idea. I have worked to find ways to mitigate that harshness for years, and largely (honestly, I'd say entirely) failed.

ESPECIALLY if I cant change things, I do feel that it's better to be open about the reality I see so people getting into the industry do so with their eyes open. 

Not only does the way things are now risk frightening off new talent, it uses up, burns out, and drives away experienced veterans, often in anger and depression.

I believe that's worth illuminating even if I have no solutions to offer.


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## MGibster (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> Do those that have made it to the top of their profession have a responsibility to look out for support and encourage those starting out in it?




I think they have a greater responsibility to be truthful about the realities of their working conditions. 



> Starting out as a musician, or actor or artist is also pretty tough and challenging, with terrible pay and lousy conditions. However successful musicians, artists and actors provide real support to people in those industries. I’m not seeing a lot of legs up from those who have made it among you. Maybe it’s just too soon and this will all come out.




The reality for musicians, actors, and many other artists is that it's very difficult for them to make a living at their chosen vocation.  Most musicians cannot make a decent living solely relying on gigs.  Either they have another job unrelated to music or they give music lessons, sell instruments, or something like that.  And actors?  Holy cow, what a competitive field!  Most of them will never make a decent living at it and those who manage it will likely have a somewhat short career.


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## Umbran (Jun 10, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> That's one way to look at it. I value quality writing but there is a limit to what I'm willing to pay for it




Yeah.  The value we personally put on the artist is not the only thing we consider in our purchases.


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## Shardstone (Jun 10, 2020)

That's not what I'm getting at, and rereading what I typed, I guess I wasn't very clear.

Customers are not the clients. The clients are the companies purchasing us, usually - the people who hire us as freelancers.

I guess if I had to oversimplify everything I'm getting at is people don't feel strongly about how good writing is good, and that means that businesses, who only care about what clients feel strongly about, don't pay freelancers or artists all that well - and writers get paid the worst of all.

The customer has, as Umbran pointed out, a lot more to worry about when purchasing a product. The client does too, but could likely afford to pay more in almost every scenario. But that goes against the current method of economy we've chosen, so, at the end of the day, there's no way to really change it.

It sucks though. Just because this is the way things are doesn't mean its good, or even preferred. Its just the way things are. And if artists like myself didn't have the overwhelming need to make art, there'd be a loooooot less of us given in many cases, we lose money on these ventures instead of gaining it.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 10, 2020)

When I buy a game book I want good writing, aka good rules and good clarity and organization for use at the table.  And nearly as important, strong binding. 



PointOfIsnpiration said:


> The customer has, as Umbran pointed out, a lot more to worry about when purchasing a product. The client does too, but could likely afford to pay more in almost every scenario. *But that goes against the current method of economy we've chosen, so, at the end of the day, there's no way to really change it.*




What does that mean though?  We should be required to pay more by some coercive economic system?


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## dragoner (Jun 10, 2020)

Owen K.C. Stephens said:


> no solutions to offer.




Maybe there are none


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 10, 2020)

dragoner said:


> Maybe there are none




The only "solution" is for tabletop RPGs to sell way more than they do. The "industry" is way too small financially to support the number of those who want to make game design/RPG writing into their career.

And, quite evidently, that is not a solution but it is the reality of the situation - and also why friends shouldn't let friends aim for a career in tabletop game design (unless they are already independently wealthy). As countless parents have told their kids over many generations, if you are aiming at a career in a creative field, make sure you have a fallback career choice. (Weird Al Yankovic, for example, graduated as an architect on the advice of his father to have a fallback career option.)

Who knows? If Hasbro/WotC doesn't screw the pooch on the next movie, maybe tabletop RPGs will boom again as they did when even TSR was able to make money? (On that note, I would love to see Pelgrane's Night's Black Agents made into a TV series. There is other IP in the industry beyond D&D and its brands.)


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## dragoner (Jun 10, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> The only "solution" is for tabletop RPGs to sell way more than they do.




The way to do that is to make something people want to buy, for a lot of the reasons given of "why this ..." the simplest solution is that Sturgeon's Law is in effect. 





__





						Sturgeon's law - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




And it is not enough to be good, but to be marketed correctly, as the OP states, the venn diagram of creatives and business professionals rarely overlaps. I recognized the designer of Zweihander was a professional, right as their campaign started.


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## Sunsword (Jun 10, 2020)

I'm sure Owen's statements are correct. My family owns a small chain of Comic & Game stores and we had an employee a few years ago that took 2 weeks off to fulfill some major freelance art project. She was only making $11 per art piece and we paid $10 an hour. I didn't bring it up because she seemed happy for the workd.

 I wonder what someone who works on D&D at WotC makes per year?


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 10, 2020)

Sunsword said:


> I wonder what someone who works on D&D at WotC makes per year?




More than any other TTRPG person in the same position in the world.
Less than anyone with the same skills doing the same job for a video game or movie company of the same profile or size.


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## willrali (Jun 10, 2020)

I'd be very much in favor of adopting a subscription-only model for electronic rpg content: put it in an app, and send it out like a streaming service for $10 a month or whatever. And I'd be very happy to pay 50% more for printed RPG books. Because even games I don't like are excellently produced and wonderful works of craft. RPGs, full of structured imagination, have had a huge impact on the popular culture; far outsized from the small amounts of money involved.

Tangentially, it's kind of gross that there are legions of pointless, makework six-figure managerial-class jobs out there, that exist so a powerful class can propagate itself. (Full disclosure, I made 'good choices' or what-the-hell-ever and I'm in that milieu.) Meanwhile, even in Australia, teachers and other essential workers are paid very mediocre indeed. 80k for full-time work in Australia _ain't_ getting you very far. And people with actual talents are left to flounder, languish and stock shelves, because... screw them! Let's pay this MBA 200k instead. And no, this isn't some natural, god-given status quo springing from natural law and lobster hierarchies. It's a structure built on purpose.

This talk of 'life is about choices', 'don't complain' and blah blah blah just perpetuates this nonsense. Let's set aside for a minute that for the bottom half of society that scrapes by in quiet desperation, life is NOT about choices, it's about surviving each day's crisis. It's repugnant that in our stupendously corpulent and wasteful society, we can't find a way to help creatives improve the human condition without them relying on trust funds or rich husbands.

Okay, rant concluded.

EDIT: since you're here: Owen and James, I love your work. It's meaningfully impacted my life and I'm glad you're doing it.


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## dragoner (Jun 10, 2020)

willrali said:


> It's a structure built on purpose.




Exactly, in the old soviet union, there was the saying that you couldn't be a great scientist, be a great artist, precisely because those two careers did the best. Here in the west, it is the rich and religious that dominated, too bad there wasn't a 3rd way somewhere in between.

For example here, a teacher's starting salary is 17k, so a career where you have to have a degree, in which you can't afford to send your child to college.


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## willrali (Jun 10, 2020)

dragoner said:


> Exactly, in the old soviet union, there was the saying that you couldn't be a great scientist, be a great artist, precisely because those two careers did the best. Here in the west, it is the rich and religious that dominated, too bad there wasn't a 3rd way somewhere in between.
> 
> For example here, a teacher's starting salary is 17k, so a career where you have to have a degree, in which you can't afford to send your child to college.




Yes. For all its many problems, the soviet union produced a lot of incredible art and science. But I'm pretty sure there is a third way (maybe even a fourth or fifth or sixth), without needing to go the soviet route. It's the will that's lacking.


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## MGibster (Jun 10, 2020)

dragoner said:


> For example here, a teacher's starting salary is 17k, so a career where you have to have a degree, in which you can't afford to send your child to college.




Is that in the United States?  I live in a poor state and the starting teacher's salary here is a minimum of $32,800 with a Bachelor's degree.


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## dragoner (Jun 10, 2020)

willrali said:


> Yes. For all its many problems, the soviet union produced a lot of incredible art and science. But I'm pretty sure there is a third way (maybe even a fourth or fifth or sixth), without needing to go the soviet route. It's the will that's lacking.




No, people aren't willing to gird themselves to fight the entrenched power structure, but in some ways, it all comes back around to politics. In anything, RPG's, business, or politics; to be successful it can be distilled down to three essential elements:
1. Luck
2. Acumen
3. Creativity



MGibster said:


> Is that in the United States?  I live in a poor state and the starting teacher's salary here is a minimum of $32,800 with a Bachelor's degree.




Which is national average, however you will notice that the 17k figure is _part time_ amount that they try to hire teachers at. However, they have been dropping the education requirements here across the board for lots of fields, there are a lot of horror stories about doctors setting bones crooked, etc..


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## DaveMage (Jun 10, 2020)

Owen K.C. Stephens said:


> More than any other TTRPG person in the same position in the world.
> Less than anyone with the same skills doing the same job for a video game or movie company of the same profile or size.




So - ballpark, what's the best a full time pen-and-paper RPG _designer_ (not a developer/publisher/owner) salary would look like from a major publishing company?  And if you can share that, what about for a full time artist (as rare as that may be)?  And how does that compare to a like-person in the video game industry?


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## Xaelvaen (Jun 10, 2020)

MGibster said:


> Is that in the United States?  I live in a poor state and the starting teacher's salary here is a minimum of $32,800 with a Bachelor's degree.




My state only has a population of 4.4 million, but our median teacher income is 54k annually with a median state income of only 27k.  To say teachers are underpaid in the ENTIRE U.S. is a drastically blown out of proportion proposition that is perpetuated in misrepresented media.  My wife, in fact, is a teacher, and is quite appreciative of the pay for only working 175 days out of the year.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jun 10, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> I think (as the article indicates) that pirating of content is the #1 cause/reason why it sucks to be in the industry.  (Today)



I’ve never got a death threat for simply doing my job (especially given some of the stupid reasons for those threats). That, combined with low pay, would probably be enough to get me looking at another industry.


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## TheSword (Jun 10, 2020)

I think your comments Owen have had the effect of shocking us customers about how poor the experience is for well loved and respected writers like yourself. I am gobsmacked, not just that the circumstances are so poor, but how lots of people just see that as status quo for the industry and just see it as par for the course. It’s really been an eye opener.

I can’t be so fatalistic about the problem though. Industries are just made of collections of people who make decisions as organizations and individuals. Those decisions may be just to keep things as they are but people are still at the heart of this problem.

Things change either because the law requires them to (maternity pay, minimum wage, safety regs) not likely in this case.

Or consumer outrage forces change due to reduced sales/boycotting - possible but difficult because of how small the market is.

Or the industry reorganizes itself - This can come about through the influence the first two things such as the impact Leverson had on the UK media.

I think customers would support change and I am absolutely convinced that there is a lot of money out their to be made. If a guy on Patreon can take $14,000 a month on map making (albeit less overheads) then there is money out there to be made. How many estimated players of d&d alone now? 17 million world wide? I think we have to acknowledge this is less of a niche hobby than it was.

It’s really good to hear paizo aren’t taking advantage (any more than anyone else) but I would have thought if any company would revise their practices to be fairer to writers it would be them. My gut feeling is that writers should be more honest with consumers about how companies trade with them. It can be anonymous but if a company gouges its writers on word per minute - excludes writers from royalties, and operates as an old boys club to women and minorities then as consumers we should be allowed to know that so we can make informed choices. 

I get that people need to protect the relationships for work - hence anonymity and websites like glass door or these forums. Create a profile and let’s have some honesty about which companies have ethical treatment of their staff. I suspect that is what is needed to galvanize customer outrage that will then drive a business decision to improve working conditions.

Thank you Owen for speaking out. It can’t have been easy, and I’m sorry if it came across like I was on your back. I was just genuinely shocked. It would be a real shame if nothing came of it, and everyone goes back to business as usual.


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## JLowder (Jun 10, 2020)

PointOfIsnpiration said:


> Oh, forgot to say this too - getting your foot in the door is impossible in the RPG industry. I ran a near 50K kickstarter and still can't get hired as a freelancer. Maybe when the book is 100% out things will change, but no one wants to give you a chance and it feels like working in the RPG industry is impossible if you aren't apart of the "Old Boys Club."




There are some ways in. Kickstarters are one. How much you raised with the campaign is not the primary metric here, though. Once you deliver the promised product, the Kickstarter becomes an audition set--especially if you delivered on time (hugely important) and the backers are happy with the project in its final form. Having more than one Kickstarter with a quality product, an on-time delivery record, and happy customers is a very attractive line on your creative resume.

So, too, with getting a popular product on the DMs Guild or, for Chaosium, the Miskatonic Repository. Many RPG companies are developing these programs. The Call of Cthulhu line editor has hired people because of their Repository publications. In a lot of ways, these community content programs have taken the place of magazines in the freelancer ecosystem. At one time, getting an interesting, well-written, well-received article in _Dragon_ about a TSR game could help you get the company's attention. But magazines are no longer a thriving part of the market. This is the closest equivalent.

Publishers post guidelines for submissions on their websites and many do panels at cons about how to break in. The issue with the latter is that you often have to be at the show to take advantage, which means those seminars can inadvertently reinforce the "old boy's network." So look for podcasts or other public posts of "breaking in" presentations. If you go to conventions, many offer some kind of professional advice seminar or even a freelancer/creator track.

With the Internet, you would think that it should be easier to break into publishing with a specific company, because communication is much more open. But it's actually much harder, because the freelancer market is _much_ more competitive. Anyone can publish on the community content sites. Anyone can create a Kickstarter (though delivering on what's promised is another matter). And the pool of freelancers is now consistently international, so you are competing against a lot more people at every turn.

The upside of this is that you still have options to get your work out there, even if don't break in with the company you want. The downside is that getting attention for your work, whether from a publisher or from the audience, is harder with all the competing voices.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## TheSword (Jun 10, 2020)

MGibster said:


> I think they have a greater responsibility to be truthful about the realities of their working conditions.
> 
> E
> 
> The reality for musicians, actors, and many other artists is that it's very difficult for them to make a living at their chosen vocation.  Most musicians cannot make a decent living solely relying on gigs.  Either they have another job unrelated to music or they give music lessons, sell instruments, or something like that.  And actors?  Holy cow, what a competitive field!  Most of them will never make a decent living at it and those who manage it will likely have a somewhat short career.




And yet many do succeed, including good friends of mine. There are many many people who make a reasonable living acting in theatre and TV, love what they do and make ends meet, thought it may be difficult at times. Not everyone has to be a Hollywood actor to be successful. A proportion don’t make it, but enough do that it’s still worthwhile. Yes people can be honest that is hard, requires luck and a lot of knockbacks but it is worth it if you love it.


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## JLowder (Jun 10, 2020)

TheSword said:


> My gut feeling is that writers should be more honest with consumers about how companies trade with them. It can be anonymous but if a company gouges its writers on word per minute - excludes writers from royalties, and operates as an old boys club to women and minorities then as consumers we should be allowed to know that so we can make informed choices.




General word rates for the industry are fairly easy to find. They generally range, for bigger publishers, from a couple cents per word up to the SFWA and HWA professional rates of 8 cents/word. The latter is rare and based more on the fiction model for publishing, not the RPG model, which features books that are much more expensive to produce. Royalties are rare with RPGs.

Word does get around when publishers mistreat authors. You can still find posts popping up now and then about Mark MacKinnon and Guardians of Order/Dyskami, for example.

But it's not typically a matter of publishers refusing to share the wealth. Most publishers would be thrilled to sell enough copies to pay the freelancers better, because smart publishers know that they have nothing without creators doing their thing. Most RPGs simply do not sell enough copies to sustain better rates. And even on things such as royalties, which are a great idea in theory, there are other issues that may not make them feasible for the small publisher or worthwhile for the creators. If you put together a monster book with 100 contributors, tracking the royalties requires an infrastructure, which itself costs money, and may result in creator shares that are tiny. And have to be sent around the world (with accompanying fees). And require freelancers who worked for you ten years ago to keep you updated as to their contact information, which also requires infrastructure. And continuing royalty payments mean you may have to generate and issue tax documents to every creator in the US, every year. And... And.. And multiply that times every book you publish, for as long as the book stays in print. So even if you as a publisher want to offer more equity, putting that into action may be difficult or impossible.

By the by, much respect for restating your take. And for championing the idea of better conditions for creators and for publisher responsibility. Thanks.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## TheSword (Jun 11, 2020)

JLowder said:


> But it's not typically a matter of publishers refusing to share the wealth. Most publishers would be thrilled to sell enough copies to pay the freelancers better, because smart publishers know that they have nothing without creators doing their thing. Most RPGs simply do not sell enough copies to sustain better rates. And even on things such as royalties, which are a great idea in theory, there are other issues that may not make them feasible for the small publisher or worthwhile for the creators. If you put together a monster book with 100 contributors, tracking the royalties requires an infrastructure, which itself costs money, and may result in creator shares that are tiny. And have to be sent around the world (with accompanying fees). And require freelancers who worked for you ten years ago to keep you updated as to their contact information, which also requires infrastructure. And continuing royalty payments mean you may have to generate and issue tax documents to every creator in the US, every year. And... And.. And multiply that times every book you publish, for as long as the book stays in print. So even if you as a publisher want to offer more equity, putting that into action may be difficult or impossible.




That makes a lot of sense. I suspect in that case, something has to change.

Either there is less collaboration on individual products so that royalties can be calculated properly. Perhaps unpalatable.

And/Or rates are increased to a fair amount to pay a fair amount, with that cost passed on to the consumer - incidentally when competition is fair, pay is transparent and quality is there, customers do frequently choose ethical companies even if they cost more. What they won’t do is pay more without understanding why.

And/Or writers take more control over production, either by publishing themselves (very difficult I’m sure) or using DM Guild, DriveThruRpG etc. This would require training, mentoring and support in business, marketing, layout and editing etc. I do think big players in the industry have a part to play in this, if they take the problems Owen has raised seriously.

And/Or finally the model changes and subscription based systems that tap into a loyal fan base to deliver consistent quality content. My gut feeling is that this is the future to actually make a decent living though it has its disadvantages. I know talented artists that struggled for years just to get by that were literally freed from minimum wage jobs in retail by a Patreon that gave them a steady £1k a month which gave them a breather so their commission business could grow.

I also see how successful subscription systems are for Syrinscape, D&D beyond, Paizo’s APs and accessories etc. As I said earlier (poorly I think) there probably needs to be a shift in terms of what content writers are willing to share to achieve good results. 

I’d pay for an AP from an author I like across Patreon where if you sign up you get that periods resources. If you deselect you keep that periods but miss out on future products with options to buy previous content in bundles or as rewards for higher tiers.

As I said, I’m not in the industry. But I am a businessman and I know that not adapting to change is kryptonite to any business. I’ve bought more 3pp in the last year than the 10 years before and I don’t believe I’m alone. I have to have faith that things can get better. I really hope they do, because writers of great products should be able to enjoy the fruits of their Labour.


----------



## Mercador (Jun 11, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> Or any other sort of professional or skilled worker.
> 
> If there is no money in RPGs - plus fan abuse - then why persist with the job? At some point it needs to be accepted that a wiser choice of employment needs to be made. Enduring decades of low income and internet insults does not rational sense.
> 
> ...



I think those are also real jobs, but it's more a vocation than a job imo. As a school teacher or a nurse. I said that I choose IT because I choose the "easy way of life", as I'll probably never fear to have no jobs at all (it depends on automation in fact) and/or I'll never fear not being able to pay my bills.

But, at the same time, the middle age crisis makes me wonder what it could have been like to do something that I would "love" to do. I had a website like this one for more than a decade and it was a lot of unpaid work but it was fun. It became too popular to stay as a sideline and working at the same time so I had to make a choice (again). At some point in the future, the UBI will allow all those crafters to do their art but right now, working in the TTRPG is really a leap of faith. It was the same in videogames industry in the '80, so who knows what the future will bring.


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## DammitVictor (Jun 11, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> Did you get the advanced books as well?  I'm thinking of the box since the sections are split up and it makes usability by multiple players much easier.  But I'm also chea...frugal so the less expensive single book version is appealing.  Then again I love box sets...




Yeah, I did.I ordered one Boxed Set, one Rules Tome, and one each of the Advanced books to fit in my Boxed Set.

Planning on acquiring a handful more Rules Tomes for table use.



Flexor the Mighty! said:


> What is that mean though?  We should be required to pay more by some coercive economic system?




Who's "we" in this hypothetical, consumers or publishers? Either way, I should hope not, but that's two _very different_ conversations.

I mean... I've already staked out a position here on subscription/hostage models, and I don't want to develop tunnel vision and potentially miss out on other potential solutions, but the roleplaying industry-- outside of Wizards and Paizo, and _maybe_ the top 1% of the rest of the 99%-- needs to start looking for and adopting business models where publishers can pay creators healthy rates and still make healthy profits independent of unit sales and per-unit profit margins.

Unfortunately, that has ugly goddamned repercussions for _guys like me_ who don't have the established reputation and fanbase to really leverage those models... effectively bringing the barriers to entry back up after the PDF/POD markets and the OGL brought them down.


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## lewpuls (Jun 11, 2020)

Most skills that happen mostly in the mind are undervalued these days, because people don't see it happen the way they can see an artist draw or paint, a sculptor sculpt, etc. - not that people with those skills have it easy. There's also the Dunning-Kruger effect, people think they could write just as well as the pros if they bothered to, because they are actually clueless about what's required. Check Wikipedia.


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## JLowder (Jun 11, 2020)

TheSword said:


> As I said, I’m not in the industry. But I am a businessman and I know that not adapting to change is kryptonite to any business. I’ve bought more 3pp in the last year than the 10 years before and I don’t believe I’m alone. I have to have faith that things can get better. I really hope they do, because writers of great products should be able to enjoy the fruits of their Labour.




Most of the things you have suggested are already in play, in various forms, using the tools available. Many established companies and pros use Kickstarter and other crowdfunding operations as a preorder system, to muster existing fans and help fund projects, since "just in time" ordering and stocking means retailers such as Amazon do not order the same way stores ordered even twenty years ago. And while some consumers will back higher costs given the right reasons, trends don't show that to be a big enough market change to impact budgets on a large scale. Not everyone has the resources to shell out more to support creators and others will use the price hike to justify increased piracy.

All of this is tied into the overall global trends in economic inequality, well beyond tabletop game publishing.

I'm with you on hoping it will get better, and working to make that happen where I can. There are many people in the industry doing that. But the problems are complicated, with elements beyond the control of small publishers or even the two large publishers in the market, Hasbro/WotC and Asmodee.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 11, 2020)

dragoner said:


> Exactly, in the old soviet union, there was the saying that you couldn't be a great scientist, be a great artist, precisely because those two careers did the best. Here in the west, it is the rich and religious that dominated, too bad there wasn't a 3rd way somewhere in between.
> 
> For example here, a teacher's starting salary is 17k, so a career where you have to have a degree, in which you can't afford to send your child to college.




17K for a starting teacher?

Are you in the Third World?

If not, emigrate to Australia (or Singapore or Scandinavia).


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## Olaf the Stout (Jun 11, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> You can always go the Siembieda route and just, like, ask for your fans to just give you money. Worked for him.



He’s shameless in that regard. I am amazed that Palladium fans keep believing the tales he weaves over and over again.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jun 11, 2020)

eyeheartawk said:


> This was back in like 2006 during the "Crisis of Treachery" as Siembieda called it (_eye roll inducing, I know) _. He put out a call to elicit donations to save the company. Nominally you got a "limited" signed art print, that wasn't limited.
> 
> I should also note that Palladium then years later repaid its loyal fanbase by absolutely ripping them off through that Robotech RPG Tactics Kickstarter mess.
> 
> So, yeah guys, there's your blueprint.



I was also shocked that so many people backed that Kickstarter. Anyone who had the slightest knowledge of Palladium and Kevin should not have touched the Kickstarter with a 500ft pole. It ended exactly how I expected it to.


----------



## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 11, 2020)

Mercador said:


> I think those are also real jobs, but it's more a vocation than a job imo. As a school teacher or a nurse. I said that I choose IT because I choose the "easy way of life", as I'll probably never fear to have no jobs at all (it depends on automation in fact) and/or I'll never fear not being able to pay my bills.
> 
> But, at the same time, the middle age crisis makes me wonder what it could have been like to do something that I would "love" to do. I had a website like this one for more than a decade and it was a lot of unpaid work but it was fun. It became too popular to stay as a sideline and working at the same time so I had to make a choice (again). At some point in the future, the UBI will allow all those crafters to do their art but right now, working in the TTRPG is really a leap of faith. It was the same in videogames industry in the '80, so who knows what the future will bring.




A real job is one that allows you to live a real life. (And, yes, I know how unpopular that statement will be.) And, again, school teachers and nurses are well paid in the countries in which I have lived; the USA is abnormal in many ways.

As for a vocation, I'm 51. I discovered certain charitable work when I was 22. I knew I couldn't do it as a 22-year-old so I worked my guts out for the next couple of decades so I could transition into the vocation of my choice which does *not* pay well but impacts lives. There has been an enormous opportunity cost, but that cost has been ameliorated by the fact that I got a haircut and a real job for two+ decades so that I could then spend the rest of my life doing something that is both important and that satisfies me.


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## DaveMage (Jun 11, 2020)

Olaf the Stout said:


> I’ve never got a death threat for simply doing my job (especially given some of the stupid reasons for those threats). That, combined with low pay, would probably be enough to get me looking at another industry.




Good point.  

But then that's the rub of gaming, right?  It's all emotional, and passion + unhappiness (sometimes) leads to acting poorly.

Also, there is such a glut of product because everyone wants to make their own game products, and, now they can.  Great talent can be overlooked and its products underappreciated (not purchased) due to the incredible volume of content - especially if that content is priced higher than other stuff.

And, there's the age-old issue that you really don't need to buy anything if you homebrew.  (Although, I haven't had the time to homebrew in 25 years.)


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## dragoner (Jun 11, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> 17K for a starting teacher?
> 
> Are you in the Third World?
> 
> If not, emigrate to Australia (or Singapore or Scandinavia).




Feels like the 3rd world. I was offered a teaching position at a uni in Bratislava ten years ago, which is a not very 1st world-ish city, for more than that. Thing is here, if they can hire them part time, then they can avoid giving them retirement and health care, the schools have been so defunded that I was talking to a university student here who had done badly in math, where she had graduated public school without being able to _reduce a fraction._


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## Umbran (Jun 11, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> 17K for a starting teacher?
> 
> Are you in the Third World?




It varies widely here.  In Texas a starting teacher (bachelor's degree, no experience) has a minimum starting salary of $33,600 per year.  In Chicago, the same teacher will get $54K.

Hint:  Don't go to Australia - go to Chicago.  Their pay schedule is pretty awesome.  Or Boston, we are pretty good here, too, though we weren't so hot when I was looking for a teacher job around here a decade and more ago.

Mind you the pay  schedule looks good, but it can be a barrier.  Because they don't have great funding, schools are often looking for _starting_ teachers.  If you come in with a Master's degree and a few years of teaching under your belt, they have to pay you more (like 1.5x what a green recruit would be).  Since that may not fit the budget, you may not be hired. This happened to me, when I was looking for a teaching role here some years back.


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## Fenris-77 (Jun 11, 2020)

Where I live the starting teacher salary is more like 75K, but the cost of living chews that up and spits it out pretty quick. Teachers are generally not paid particularly well, despite what public sentiment might have to say about that.


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## Umbran (Jun 11, 2020)

Fenris-77 said:


> Where I live the starting teacher salary is more like 75K, but the cost of living chews that up and spits it out pretty quick.




That holds for Boston and Chicago, too.  But, same could be said for any starting salary in a major city.


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## Fenris-77 (Jun 11, 2020)

Umbran said:


> That holds for Boston and Chicago, too.  But, same could be said for any starting salary in a major city.



Yeah, true. I live in the Canadian Arctic, home of $8 tins of beef stew and scuzzy $2000 a month bachelor apartments. It's not a major city, but the CoL is on par or higher than some major urban centers. It's on par with London, generally speaking.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 11, 2020)

FaerieGodfather said:


> Yeah, I did.I ordered one Boxed Set, one Rules Tome, and one each of the Advanced books to fit in my Boxed Set.
> 
> Planning on acquiring a handful more Rules Tomes for table use.
> 
> ...




On the subject of OSE, I'm still tossing around Advance Labyrinth Lord or that.  Going to email the group to talk about switching from Swords and Wizardry, which is a great game, to something with a bit more bite which would be one of those two sets.  Both are based off B/X mixed with 1e so I think they will work. 

On the second point, I was just asking for clarification about the comment about economic systems and all that to better understand what was being said.  For me subscriptions services don't work as well since I rarely need much past the core rule book.  But it would all depend on specifics of a designer/publisher. I support a few creators on Patreon that are in a perpetual state of being demonitized but they put out regular content I watch.  It will be interesting to see how the market shakes out going forward.


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## DammitVictor (Jun 11, 2020)

Flexor the Mighty! said:


> On the second point, I was just asking for clarification about the comment about economic systems and all that to better understand what was being said.  For me subscriptions services don't work as well since I rarely need much past the core rule book.  But it would all depend on specifics of a designer/publisher. I support a few creators on Patreon that are in a perpetual state of being demonitized but they put out regular content I watch.  It will be interesting to see how the market shakes out going forward.




Well, basically... the patronage model is kinda like Patreon, where your supporter pay you an ongoing fee for early access and other perks in relation to material you release for free/PWYW with their support. A lot of YouTube channels do this.

The hostage model is more like Kickstarter, where your supporters chip in money to reach certain minimum financial goals-- at which point you'll release your work free/PWYW-- and then aim for stretch goals to allow you to provide more/better content.

Both models assume that _some of your customers_ will pay more than your minimum asking price and that potentially many people will benefit from your work without paying anything. Since the latter's true anyway, it's better to acknowledge it and take advantage of it than to try to fight the inevitable: if the connection between people _using your work_ and _paying for your work_ is broken, you have to approach _getting paid_ as its own separate problem.


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## pogre (Jun 11, 2020)

I left an industry to do what I love. I was an attorney for seven years before becoming a high school teacher and coach. It did require some life style adjustments, but it is rewarding and time off in the summer is great. More importantly, while the pay is just OK - it is OK, and it is steady and reliable. There are numerous rewards well beyond making a living of course. I made the change with my eyes wide open to the changes - that's the value of a thread like this - people should know what they are getting into.

BTW - Getting three death threats over an entire career sounds great to someone who coaches high school American football. I imagine I averaged that per year as a head coach - although they are almost always anonymous. If you think hardcore gamers are a mess - I'd like to introduce you to hardcore football fans and parents . In all seriousness, no one should have to endure death threats from fans - coaches or creators.

I used to do commission miniature painting. I learned I enjoyed it less when I was trying to make money from it. Just because I love something does not mean I will enjoy it as a vocation. In my case, it was clear the opposite was true. I think would be designers, even talented ones, lose some of the joy when they turn a hobby into a career.

I think the best advice for someone going into writing, acting, music, game design, etc. - keep the day job and have a back-up plan.


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## billd91 (Jun 11, 2020)

pogre said:


> BTW - Getting three death threats over an entire career sounds great to someone who coaches high school American football. I imagine I averaged that per year as a head coach - although they are almost always anonymous. If you think hardcore gamers are a mess - I'd like to introduce you to hardcore football fans and parents . In all seriousness, no one should have to endure death threats from fans - coaches or creators.




This and any perusal of comments pages on news stories about crime and punishment or politics will disabuse anyone of the notion that fanboys or gamers are somehow more toxic than anyone else.


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## billd91 (Jun 11, 2020)

pogre said:


> I think the best advice for someone going into writing, acting, music, game design, etc. - keep the day job and have a back-up plan.




I do think this is perfectly reasonable advice but not everyone else does. George Clooney, when faced with this advice (from his father, I think?) when pursuing acting was, "If I have something to fall back on, *I'll fall back*." He must be at least a partial believer in the compellence school of motivation.


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## Olaf the Stout (Jun 11, 2020)

Umbran said:


> It varies widely here.  In Texas a starting teacher (bachelor's degree, no experience) has a minimum starting salary of $33,600 per year.  In Chicago, the same teacher will get $54K.
> 
> Hint:  Don't go to Australia - go to Chicago.  Their pay schedule is pretty awesome.  Or Boston, we are pretty good here, too, though we weren't so hot when I was looking for a teacher job around here a decade and more ago.
> 
> Mind you the pay  schedule looks good, but it can be a barrier.  Because they don't have great funding, schools are often looking for _starting_ teachers.  If you come in with a Master's degree and a few years of teaching under your belt, they have to pay you more (like 1.5x what a green recruit would be).  Since that may not fit the budget, you may not be hired. This happened to me, when I was looking for a teaching role here some years back.



Teacher pay rates in Australia aren’t that bad. In my state (South Australia) teachers earn $68k (compared to the average full time Australian salary of $82k). That goes up each year until they reach about $90k after 7 years experience. So most teachers earn above average pay.

To earn more than that you’d need to either have specialised skills (i.e. extra training or study working with special needs children or something similar) or be a principal/vice principal.


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## JLowder (Jun 11, 2020)

billd91 said:


> This and any perusal of comments pages on news stories about crime and punishment or politics will disabuse anyone of the notion that fanboys or gamers are somehow more toxic than anyone else.




Fan culture is more toxic than the cultures you encounter in most other professions. There are exceptions, politics and education being the most obvious. (The most credible death threat I ever received was connected to a university teaching gig, not my work in publishing.) But lots of people will go their whole careers without receiving death threats or threats of abuse connected to their work. Those things are common for people working n the arts.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## DaveMage (Jun 12, 2020)

Thank you for sharing your experiences, Jim Lowder.  When I win Powerball and start my own RPG company (so I can afford to spend $2 million to make $1 million), I'm hiring you to change the industry.  

On a more practical note, Owen mentioned he wished he had solutions.  Do you see any way to make things better for talent in the industry?  An RPG Designers Guild, perhaps?


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 12, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> Thank you for sharing your experiences, Jim Lowder.  When I win Powerball and start my own RPG company (so I can afford to spend $2 million to make $1 million), I'm hiring you to change the industry.
> 
> On a more practical note, Owen mentioned he wished he had solutions.  Do you see any way to make things better for talent in the industry?  An RPG Designers Guild, perhaps?




The only answer is increasing the size of the pie.

You have to create wealth in order to be able to share that wealth.

The most successful government we had in Oz over the past 50-odd years was a centre left government led by Bob Hawke and Paul Keating. (And I say this as someone from the other side of the political aisle.) What made them so successful - it laid the foundations for the past 29 years of GDP increases which are about to end - was that they realised they need to boost national incomes before they could redistribute same.

RPG publishers can only share what they have: A Designers Guild doesn't increase the size of the pie. To paraphrase Frank Herbert: "The pie must grow."


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## DaveMage (Jun 12, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> The only answer is increasing the size of the pie.
> 
> RPG publishers can only share what they have: A Designers Guild doesn't increase the size of the pie. To paraphrase Frank Herbert: "The pie must grow."




The pie may grow a little, but it's not going to grow enough unless something is done about the supply side.  Too much good content already available, and more coming every day.


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## Retreater (Jun 12, 2020)

One way the "pie" is getting bigger (for me anyway) is purchasing multiple times. I've spent additional money for a PDF, print, and VTT copy of basically the same material. Some others might also spend more on deluxe print runs (though those don't really appeal to me). So that might help?


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## JLowder (Jun 12, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> On a more practical note, Owen mentioned he wished he had solutions.  Do you see any way to make things better for talent in the industry?  An RPG Designers Guild, perhaps?




I have been pushing for GAMA to recreate itself as an industry organization not just a manufacturer and retailer organization for fifteen or twenty years, so they would include creators in the voting membership. Recast like that, with a code of conduct for all members and a grievance committee with some teeth, GAMA could play a role in bettering general conditions. More education about contracts and options for publishing. Realistic attitudes about returns for work and working conditions.

The root problems are things like the global economic model for entertainment and the way in which intellectual property (IP) is ending up concentrated with operations that do not share the wealth they generate. Even something like universal healthcare in the United States could change things immensely for creators, as well as small and medium-sized publishers. But none of this is easy to solve, particularly in the US.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## Voadam (Jun 12, 2020)

Scrivener of Doom said:


> To paraphrase Frank Herbert: "The pie must grow."




This was terrible. And not actually a paraphrase.


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## Umbran (Jun 12, 2020)

JLowder said:


> I have been pushing for GAMA to recreate itself as an industry organization not just a manufacturer and retailer organization for fifteen or twenty years, so they would include creators in the voting membership. Recast like that, with a code of conduct for all members and a grievance committee with some teeth, GAMA could play a role in bettering general conditions.




If the same organization represents both sides of an issue or dispute, you are setting yourself up for abuse of bias for one side or the other.


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## TheSword (Jun 12, 2020)

Is this predominantly an American problem or do other countries suffer the same? Cubicle 7 is in Ireland I believe, are their other major non-American ttrpg publishing companies?


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 12, 2020)

TheSword said:


> Is this predominantly an American problem or do other countries suffer the same? Cubicle 7 is in Ireland I believe, are their other major non-American ttrpg publishing companies?




Several, depending on your definition of "major." Mongoose and Pelgrane leap immediately to mind. But even if I had direct knowledge of their situations, I wouldn't call out a specific company without their approval.


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## Morrus (Jun 12, 2020)

Owen K.C. Stephens said:


> Several, depending on your definition of "major." Mongoose and Pelgrane leap immediately to mind. But even if I had direct knowledge of their situations, I wouldn't call out a specific company without their approval.



Modiphius, primarily - they're probably third after WOtC and Paizo; them and Cubicle 7 are probably the two biggest UK companies (though C7 moved to Ireland last year, so I guess it's no longer UK).  Then I suppose it's Pelgrane and Mongoose, I think? Then there's the Swedes (especially Free League) who are doing very well.


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## Morrus (Jun 12, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> When I win Powerball and start my own RPG company (so I can afford to spend $2 million to make $1 million), I'm hiring you to change the industry.




It's a funny meme, but you can make a profit making RPGs. Not the profit you can make producing boardgames, or video games, or, I dunno, tea-towels, but you don't have to lose money.


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## mcmillan (Jun 12, 2020)

TheSword said:


> Is this predominantly an American problem or do other countries suffer the same? Cubicle 7 is in Ireland I believe, are their other major non-American ttrpg publishing companies?




For what it's worth, Cat Tobin, a co-owner of Pelgrane Press, retweeted part of Owen Stephan' thread with the comment:


			
				https://twitter.com/CatTHM/status/1270800924416577539 said:
			
		

> If you haven't been reading @Owen_Stephens's statements about the #TTRPG industry on the #RealGameIndustry thread, let me tell you they are all 100% accurate, make for damned uncomfortable reading, and contain essential lessons for anyone aspiring to work in the #RPGindustry.


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## JLowder (Jun 13, 2020)

Umbran said:


> If the same organization represents both sides of an issue or dispute, you are setting yourself up for abuse of bias for one side or the other.




Great point. That is a serious concern, especially if all parties do not buy into the process or if the organization does not have a clear code of conduct, which would help guide resolution for some issues. The current model for these types of GriefComs are organizations such as SFWA and HWA, and those models are of very limited use, in my experience. The writers organizations do not want to piss off important editors or publishers, because that could cost people work, so they can be reluctant to act against them. They can also settle for "victories" that do not resolve the real problem, because it makes for good PR. (On the latter, see SFWA's role in the Dragon CD Rom author skirmish with WotC.) These committees can do good work, but their range is limited.

If an organization includes both the publishers and the creators, there's at least a chance a GriefCom could be used in good faith by both parties to resolve issues. Or it could lead to fistfights at the GriefCom meetings. We'd have to see how that plays out in practice, but I think it's worth trying.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## JLowder (Jun 13, 2020)

TheSword said:


> Is this predominantly an American problem or do other countries suffer the same? Cubicle 7 is in Ireland I believe, are their other major non-American ttrpg publishing companies?




All the larger and mid-sized companies and many of the small and indie houses deal with creators all over the world. (Chaosium has line editors in the US, UK, Germany, Australia, with creative contributors even more scattered.) Some issues, such as healthcare, are major problems for American creators and companies, but they impact all tabletop publishers to some extent.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## Sunsword (Jun 13, 2020)

dragoner said:


> For example here, a teacher's starting salary is 17k, so a career where you have to have a degree, in which you can't afford to send your child to college.




Wow. In the states surrounding me you start at around $35k or more if you teach Math or Science.


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## Fenris-77 (Jun 13, 2020)

Sunsword said:


> Wow. In the states surrounding me you start at around $35k or more if you teach Math or Science.



And that's not even a high number. 17K is mind boggling. I love my job, but I wouldn't do it for 17K. Or actually for 35K at this point, but 35K to start is at least within sight of a living wage.


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## dragoner (Jun 13, 2020)

Sunsword said:


> Wow. In the states surrounding me you start at around $35k or more if you teach Math or Science.




If you get full time, and which 35k still isn't that great. I have a friend with his PhD in physics, tried for full time at local schools, and was only offered part time. They advertise full time positions, only to get you to apply, and receive an offer of part time; that way they don't have to offer you any benefits, and you are barred from joining the union. Meanwhile at local factories, a friend with a masters in chemistry, found employment in the paint dept of auto plant for 68k starting.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 14, 2020)

A lot of this is true for writing in general, and I suspect for creative work as a category. In my experience, the more people like a career, the less pay and more naughty word you're expected to put up with along the way.


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## Morrus (Jun 14, 2020)

Fenris-77 said:


> And that's not even a high number. 17K is mind boggling. I love my job, but I wouldn't do it for 17K. Or actually for 35K at this point, but 35K to start is at least within sight of a living wage.



As a point of comparison, starting teacher salaries here in the UK are about £25K (a bit more in London). Nurses earn in the same region.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 14, 2020)

Teachers here get somewhere in the 50-77k range. 1 NZD is 0.68 USD. Issue here is the extra curricular work you end up doing. Universal healthcare, government pays about 70-80% of your degree costs. 

 Question with old boys club. There's a few authors whose work I like. James Jacobs is one for an example. 

 Most of them were in Dungeon magazine. Wolfgang Bauer is another one. 

 But yeah I guess I'm looking at established authors whose name I recognize. But that feeds into the old boys club as well.

 Now when you do a Paizo AP or WotC hardcover I can't even tell you who writes it 95% of the time. 

 The demise of Dragon/Dungeon feeds into this. I did buy off DMG but ended up with so many PDFs I couldn't keep up so gave up. I'll never run, use, or even read half of them.


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## basilforth (Jun 14, 2020)

Eyes of Nine said:


> When my son's were at that certain age, they put food on themselves...




My dog used to _like it_ when I put food on the children.


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## basilforth (Jun 14, 2020)

LordEntrails said:


> Are you willing to pay on hourly basis? Is RPG entertainment worth $2 per hour for you? Are you going to get 10 hours or 100 hours or more from the product?




This is the basis that I use to remind myself that RPGs and board games are astonishingly good values.

For comparison, I spend $12 for a movie that lasts two hours.  Some people spend $100 for a 4 hour football game experience.  

If I add up the amount of time that I plus family and friends spend enjoying a game, then games cost pennies per hour.


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## basilforth (Jun 14, 2020)

Voadam said:


> This was terrible. And not actually a paraphrase.




It was a leveraging and it was glorious.  Worthy of Gurney himself.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 14, 2020)

Teachers in the United States get paid a _wide_ range. In Southern California, they typically start from $35k to $45k, depending on the district (and the district's cost of living) and salaries can get $80k or more with 20+ years of work and a PhD picked up along the way.

In other states, especially rural and poorer ones, their salaries can start closer to $25k.


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## MNblockhead (Jun 15, 2020)

TheSword said:


> I do think Patreon is a very smart way of making sure creatives get properly rewarded in some fields. I support a couple of map designing artists for $2 - $8 dollars a month and these guys have thousands of followers. They must be taking $10k a month as a minimum and I’m happy to see the rewarded because they are doing something original and in demand. They also take it extremely seriously and have put the effort in and extra materials to make this a full time living. It is by no means easy.
> 
> It seems a shame that good writers don’t seem to be getting anywhere near this. Perhaps we just value the skill of writing less than the skill of drawing because it’s seen as more accessible. I’m constantly blown away by the work done by neutral party, two minute tabletop and heroic maps.




I find it easier to use maps than written content. The problem for me is that I just can't consume the amount of good content that is available. Because of some life changes I've had to cut back on my Patreon subscriptions, but I used to prefer backing something like EN World's EN5ider, which has a nice blend of materials, and which supported a diverse group of both writers and artists.


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## Tyler Pickering (Jun 15, 2020)

I also support some of those map makers you listed and they do take in excess of 5-10k a month in a few cases. Maybe we are valuing art more than the written word and doing a disservice to people like @Owen K.C. Stephens and others for their craft by not supporting them similarly. That said I’d love to see smaller official releases from Paizo employees personal patreons and maybe something similar could be a solution to at least a few of the woes these people face. It takes bold moves and off the wall ideas to have things like industries advance or change.


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## KainGuru (Jun 15, 2020)

He sounds burnt out more than anything. Its exactly the same sentiments felt by 99% of public service jobs (especially healthcare) at any number of points in their career - ask any Dr or Nurse if they haven't felt the same about the criticisms of the general public and/or press (we have, we do, we cannot ever say it except between ourselves because of a) public duty and b) professional obligation). When you get like this it's time to step back for a bit because despite all the negatives there have to be positives (it's just hard to see them when you are burnt out) or else why choose to do what you choose to do?

Unfortunately the TTRPG industry is a very small pond with an over supply of producers vs consumers; further limited by the nature of the product (once - core rules- bought you really dont need to purchase any more products). This makes itself a very volatile market place - TSR's fall from grace is testament to that.

My advice is take comfort in the small victory's - for me it's the patient that says thank you for him it's the fan who appreciates the effort. Even if it's only 1 in a 100 - it's still a plus. Mental health days, or sabbaticals, help as well


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## Owen K.C. Stephens (Jun 15, 2020)

I am not burned out.
I am also not free to take a sabbatical.
I am sharing knowledge common within the industry, that isn't much discussed publicly.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 15, 2020)

KainGuru said:


> He sounds burnt out more than anything. Its exactly the same sentiments felt by 99% of public service jobs (especially healthcare) at any number of points in their career - ask any Dr or Nurse if they haven't felt the same about the criticisms of the general public and/or press (we have, we do, we cannot ever say it except between ourselves because of a) public duty and b) professional obligation). When you get like this it's time to step back for a bit because despite all the negatives there have to be positives (it's just hard to see them when you are burnt out) or else why choose to do what you choose to do?



I find it hard to believe that there are many jobs where people don't feel unappreciated/misunderstood, feel they're grossly underpaid and think they're managed by people who don't have the skills to do so.

My colleagues certainly feel this way. That's why they pay us to come in.


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## JLowder (Jun 15, 2020)

KainGuru said:


> Its exactly the same sentiments felt by 99% of public service jobs...




TTRPG game design is not a public service job, though it has some things in common with a public service job given online accessibility.

Owen is highlighting the mismatches between the perception of a TTRPG job and the realities of the industry--which are significant, even within the ranks of designers. You could do that for any profession, though the mismatch between the perception and the reality of creative/arts jobs tends to be much higher than with other professions. There are a number of causes for this mismatch, such as the ways in which the mass media depicts creative jobs. Some of the mismatches will be familiar to people in other professions, some are unique to arts jobs or even working in tabletop publishing.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## Cergorach (Jun 15, 2020)

Owen K.C. Stephens said:


> What I DO feel is a need for the people stepping into the industry for the first time to be told some of what it's like, with a clarity I did not get from anyone in the 1990s when I started.



This issue/situation has come up regularly on the forums here at ENworld over the last 20 years. But I'm curious, you never peeked at the rates TSR was willing to pay for your freelance work for Dungeon/Dragon? Translating that to a hourly wage and then realizing that TSR was the big kid on the block in RPG land? I'm six years younger less old then you, but that idea was killed quickly when I saw those rates and did some creative writing as a test. I _really_ wanted to design planes, did a year of aerospace engineering school and the only aerospace company in the country went belly up, that brought on a harsh reality check, would I want to emigrate to the US (I'm European and my German and French sucks). That was a big NO! A long story short, I'm now in IT as a freelancer. I did really well in art at school, even did a year of multimedia design after the aerospace engineering bit, so it's not as if I don't have a creative bone in my body. ;-) I suspect I can do better working half a year as a IT freelancer and then writing half a year for free then working a full year for freelance writer fees in the RPG gaming industry and I'm not even a top IT dog that's paid a huge hourly rate...

Some of the items on the 'list' didn't read like warnings for future RPG writers, but griping against (former) customers. I get venting a bit of frustration, that often helps, in the short run. But let me be blunt, are those 'realizations' not a bit late after 20-30 years in the industry at age 50? Let me be even more blunt, how many of the RPG writers would be able to cut it in a different industry? Would there be a place for them as a writer in another industry? Can they do anything else? Because people keep comparing what folks make between RPG writers and really good paying jobs (a few of us that got lucky), Not between RPG writers and really bad paying jobs like burger flipper, etc.

Imho the RPG industry has been making their own next generation writers by design, making your own adventures, worlds, etc. Makes the next generation of writers, that resultsin a slew of young fools that are willing to work for virtually nothing. That was true in the age of Dragon/Dungeon magazine, but with time it became even easier. For every RPG writer that stops 10 others are willing to work for less, just for the chance to get published. Many even pay others to publish themselves (vanitypress). The issue isn't that the books are too cheap, it's that they don't sell enough because the market isn't big enough and far to fragmented. Writers/publisher are part of the problem, want to fix this? Stop writing/publishing and competing with others in the same space. But that doesn't work, for every writer/publisher that stops, 10 start... Products aren't valued at what they cost to make, but at what the market will bear, if the price it sells for is less then it costs to make, no sane company would produce it. But in the RPG industry they just pay less and still find tons of fools to work for peanuts... Pay peanuts, get monkeys!


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## technoextreme (Jun 15, 2020)

JLowder said:


> Fan culture is more toxic than the cultures you encounter in most other professions. There are exceptions, politics and education being the most obvious. (The most credible death threat I ever received was connected to a university teaching gig, not my work in publishing.) But lots of people will go their whole careers without receiving death threats or threats of abuse connected to their work. Those things are common for people working n the arts.
> 
> Cheers,
> Jim Lowder



On top of that I can't think of any RPG company which hasn't tried to sweep issues of abuse and harassment under the rug.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> This issue/situation has come up regularly on the forums here at ENworld over the last 20 years. But I'm curious, you never peeked at the rates TSR was willing to pay for your freelance work for Dungeon/Dragon? Translating that to a hourly wage and then realizing that TSR was the big kid on the block in RPG land?



So, the answer is, if you really are passionate about doing something, and it doesn't pay enough, you should go be an accountant or something lucrative that doesn't particularly speak to you instead? (Apologies to every accountant passionate about their job.)

His opinion isn't invalid because he made a different calculation than you did.


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## Cergorach (Jun 15, 2020)

PointOfIsnpiration said:


> But that goes against the current method of economy we've chosen, so, at the end of the day, there's no way to really change it.



That's because even as an artist => creative person your not as creative when it comes to other things or willing to learn other things. That costs, in this case money. This is not only true for your industry, but true for just about every industry. Workers that work for minimum wage, while management reaps the benefits by doing 'nothing'. The last 20 years have given writers/artists oodles of opportunities, the OGL/D20, pdf publishing, shared knowledge on these forums, crowdfunding, online collaboration, etc. And some people have done it by cutting out the middleman (publisher) and publishing themselves. Many have tried, many have failed, but most have never tried at all... Artists have for decades formed their own communities, this can easily be done online, virtually. Finding like minded individuals has never been so easy! But again, that is often out of the comfort zone of most people, so they keep slogging along at their 'old' job and complain. ;-)


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## JLowder (Jun 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> Let me be even more blunt, how many of the RPG writers would be able to cut it in a different industry? Would there be a place for them as a writer in another industry? Can they do anything else? Because people keep comparing what folks make between RPG writers and really good paying jobs (a few of us that got lucky), Not between RPG writers and really bad paying jobs like burger flipper, etc.




Most RPG designers have degrees or advanced degrees they could monetize. Many have worked in other industries where they were successful and did make more money, even significantly more.

You seem to view everything through the lens of pay. You were right to bail on writing for the tabletop industry, though. It doesn't reward people who view things primarily through that one lens.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## Dioltach (Jun 15, 2020)

Stefano Rinaldelli said:


> Or, in other words, to show women skin is not to sexualize women. Sexualization depends upon what kind of connotation you give to the subject. Maybe is a matter of culture. In Italy we are sourrounded by art and many of this artistic expressions involves women body.
> Would you say that this is "sexualized woman"?
> View attachment 122677




Just jumping in to say, "The Birth of Venus" not sexualised? She's literally the goddess of sex!


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## Cergorach (Jun 15, 2020)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> So, the answer is, if you really are passionate about doing something, and it doesn't pay enough, you should go be an accountant or something lucrative that doesn't particularly speak to you instead? (Apologies to every accountant passionate about their job.)
> 
> His opinion isn't invalid because he made a different calculation than you did.



The answer is: "If you really are passionate about doing something, you better live with the consequences of your choices!".
Then I'm saying: "Don't blame the customer."

I'm working to live, I do not live to work. Making worlds, adventures and monsters is fun. As an IT freelancer I have the freedom to sometimes work 24/7/365 for a few years and other years work a few months out of the year and spend the rest of the time on fun things that don't require a paycheck.

@JLowder The reason why I eventually passed on the job was because of information folks had shared on the forum about practices in the RPG industry that were 'not cool'. A bit like the warnings above... And I've read other folks that faced similar problems and took the dive, and more often then not, got screwed. I'm not talking about low pay that you agreed to beforehand, but about no pay or pay delayed by sometimes years. Companies not following through on their promises, etc. That isn't just the publishers in the RPG industry, but the same goes for distributors. Like someone else said, most people in the RPG game industry are horrible business people.

The reason I'm not in financial ruin after my dalliances in the gaming industry is because I didn't dive in headfirst without looking at the financial consequences. The world is full of graduates that are flipping burgers for a living, a good education does not guarantee a good job. Especially after spending a decade+ in a niche industry. Not everyone can be a Judge in RL... ;-)

The RPG industry also doesn't reward those people that don't have that one lens of 'pay'. Hence the complaining (like clockwork)...


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> The answer is: "If you really are passionate about doing something, you better live with the consequences of your choices!".
> Then I'm saying: "Don't blame the customer."



Make something worth stealing, have it stolen, and thus likely taking food off your table, then see how you feel about it.

I'm sorry you spend a third or more of your life doing something you don't enjoy because you feel you have to. Spending all this energy in an apparent effort to shame Stephens for doing what he loves is a weird look, man.


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## JLowder (Jun 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> The RPG industry also doesn't reward those people that don't have that one lens of 'pay'. Hence the complaining (like clockwork)...




The discussion is about a lot more than pay and raising the problems is not "complaining." It's warning people about landmines that may not be obvious--the kind of thing that helped you make an informed decision. It's saying things aloud that others in the industry might have observed but might not think are common.

Oh, and it's not a binary choice between financial ruin and leaving the industry. Your single lens is once again failing to give you access to a full picture.

Cheers,
Jim Lowder


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## MNblockhead (Jun 15, 2020)

I don't know Owen, but I appreciate what he is doing. Reading over his tweets is like having a beer with an industry veteran or an uncle in the field. It is the kind of unfiltered reality check that you don't often get from published sources. Probably because optimism sells and you don't want to be seen as the guy crapping on your industry. 

Cynically tearing down someone's dreams is not a nice thing to do, but simply chanting encouraging slogans and providing cheap career nostrums may be worse.  I don't think Owen is doing the former and I'm glad he is not doing the later.


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## Cergorach (Jun 15, 2020)

DaveMage said:


> The pie may grow a little, but it's not going to grow enough unless something is done about the supply side.  *Too much good content already available*, and more coming every day.



This is also so true! I own almost every 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition D&D book. Physical and bought most of the 2E stuff electronically as well (when they were $2-$3 a piece). And that is only about 30% of my collection. After 30+ years of collecting, my bookcases are overflowing, I now have to curate my collection, so very little gets added. If it does, generally it's in an electronic format, with a physical book being the exception. I have a lot of room dedicated to my hobby, but many others don't have that luxury, so what do they do when the space they have is filled? Stuff they don't want anymore is sold or given away, very little is actually destroyed. So there is a huge secondary market for RPG books, pretty much the same issue GamesWorkshop has always had and why they are pricing their miniatures so highly, they are competing with themselves. They are filling up the market faster then the market grows, their best case is that entire collections gather dust in attics without being sold or given away. From a D&D perspective a gamer/DM is pretty much done after the PHP/DMG/MM if they were playing/collecting older editions. But a lot of gamers have some form of OCD and want 'complete' collections and keep buying until they don't have no room to put new ones (aka. hoarders).

@Whizbang Dustyboots There is no stealing here. But I get what your getting at, that feeling that someone else is making bucks over your back? You know what I did about that? I got creative... Felt that the local gaming store was taking advantage of product pricing, poor service, no stock, etc. Start your own online game(book) store, run that as a side business until other online businesses can do it better and cheaper then you can (amazon.de for example). Know that the folks hiring you out to the customer are making trice what they are paying you? Get a job without intermediaries. Experience telling you that as a freelancer you can earn better, with more freedom? Become a freelancer. Etc. The problem here is not that they pay doesn't suck and people are sometimes treating you badly, but that your not willing to do anything about it. Not willing to change (enough?). Or just not bringing his point across that well, I've read such warnings before here on Enworld, they sounded a lot less like complaining... ;-)

As for not enjoying my work: I didn't say that, it's not always sunshine and rainbows, but generally I like helping folks with their IT issues. I especially like it when I make it so that their systems run more efficiently, cheaper, with less man-hours needed for operation. I'm in the business of making myself obsolete... ;-) Just because I work to live, doesn't mean I don't enjoy what I do. But work is still work, not the same kind of 'fun' as _fun _stuff. Like Pogre said, when a hobby becomes a job, the hobby might be (significantly) less fun. The difference between need and want. I need to do things at work, I want to do things with my hobbies.

As for shaming? Look, I don't disagree what with (most) what is said in the original article, just how it is said and why it was said. As a warning, I can only say "Know what your getting into, the pay is going to suck, plan for failure!". But as a complaint, I say what I've been saying. This isn't new information, this has been discussed over the 20 years here, online (do your research!). _looks at bottom of posts_ Where did that signature go? My signature was: "will not accept that, no regrets"


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 15, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> @Whizbang Dustyboots There is no stealing here.



Stephens specifically talked about piracy. Ignoring one of the things he expresses frustration about while telling him he's wrong to be frustrated is intellectually dishonest.



> But work is still work, not the same kind of 'fun' as _fun _stuff.



For _you_. Requiring everyone to have the same life experience as you is irrational.


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## Shardstone (Jun 16, 2020)

Cergorach said:


> That's because even as an artist => creative person your not as creative when it comes to other things or willing to learn other things. That costs, in this case money. This is not only true for your industry, but true for just about every industry. Workers that work for minimum wage, while management reaps the benefits by doing 'nothing'. The last 20 years have given writers/artists oodles of opportunities, the OGL/D20, pdf publishing, shared knowledge on these forums, crowdfunding, online collaboration, etc. And some people have done it by cutting out the middleman (publisher) and publishing themselves. Many have tried, many have failed, but most have never tried at all... Artists have for decades formed their own communities, this can easily be done online, virtually. Finding like minded individuals has never been so easy! But again, that is often out of the comfort zone of most people, so they keep slogging along at their 'old' job and complain. ;-)



Thanks for explaining to me, someone who has done all the things you said I've never done, why I'm not creative when it comes to "other things" and not willing to learn.

Really impressive how you ignored my entire post just to attack my character and made up a bunch of strawmans that don't even make sense given the rest of what I wrote. You must have really been sitting on this one for a while.


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## Staffan (Jun 22, 2020)

I would argue that the core problems pointed out by Stephens are:


> People who are passionate about making games for other people, people who are good at making games, and people who are good at the business of game sales and marketing don't overlap much in a Venn diagram. Most game company failures can be attributed to this.
> If you are a TTRPG creative, you aren't paid enough. Thus, if you find people listening to you and apparently valuing your words you owe it to yourself to make sure they know there is an option to pay you for them. Also, I have a Patreon. Owen K.C. Stephens is creating Geek blogs & RPG rules (Starfinder, 1e/2e Pathfinder, AGE, etc.) | Patreon
> There are beloved, award-winning, renowned, well-known TTRPG books with total print runs of 2000 or fewer copies. That did not sell out.
> Most RPG creators cannot afford the upper-tier of RPG accessories. Colossal dragons, scale sailing ships, and custom-built gaming tables are not for those of us who create the hobby. We are too poor to enjoy even a fraction of the things our creativity sparks.
> Freelancers aren't paid enough by game company employees and managers, who themselves aren't paid enough by their companies, which don't make enough from distributors and stores, that don't make enough from customers. This never improves. It can get worse.




The RPG market, to be blunt, sucks. A big part of the problem is that the step from being a customer to being a writer or publisher is too small (I mean, it's still a big step, but you have a far larger percentage of people who play RPGs who become RPG writers than you have, say, people who drive cars who become car designers).

Since we as customers don't have infinite money to spend on games, a lot of games go unbought. Even among those we buy, many will just sit on a shelf and not get played. Even among those we play, we generally only use a small part of the game. So yeah, from one perspective, RPGs are among the best value for money you'll ever find. Before the Corona thing made my main game group go online, we were getting close to finishing a Princes of the Apocalypse campaign we started back in late 2016. Sure, we've been mixing it up with other games in between, but that's still something like three years of gaming from one adventure (plus the core books). So that's good value for money, probably even if we include the minis I've bought and painted. But at the same time, Dragon Heist, Out of the Abyss, and Storm King's Thunder have been gathering dust on my shelves, and I haven't had much use for Volo's Guide to Monsters, Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, Xanathar's Guide to Everything, and Explorer's Guide to Eberron. I still bought them, because even if I only get a bit of inspiration from them, $50 isn't that much. But I'd have been much more hesitant to buy them at $60 and above – then, the purchase moves into the realm of "Do I *really* need this?" instead of "Sure, why not?"

I think, deep down, that the only way for the RPG market to fix itself is for about half the current publishers to drop out. Assuming that people would still, on the whole, spend about as much money on RPGs but only have half as many things to spend it on would seriously boost the viability of the remaining companies, which in turn would allow them to pay and treat their freelancers and employees better, and that would in turn lead to better product and us customers being able to demand more from the remaining companies in terms of punctuality and such.


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