# D&D Wargaming: Good OOC



## Fieari (Mar 22, 2004)

As per a request, this thread is for the forces of Good to discuss strategy or whatever in an OOC enviornment.  Forces of Darkness, stay out.


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## WizWrm (Mar 22, 2004)

I'll be ready to hop in as soon as I have a chance to digest the city info.


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## Fieari (Mar 22, 2004)

City posted in rogue's gallery.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 22, 2004)

oops... this doesn't go here...


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## WizWrm (Mar 22, 2004)

Fieari said:
			
		

> Wait a minute. How do you intend to do this? 7th level is your highest slot, Greater Teleport is 7th level, and even Teleport is 5th. Quicken raises a spell's level by 4. Quickened Teleport would be 9th level, quickened Greater Teleport would be 11th level, which I don't think is even possible (epic spells are all considered 10th level, after all).




Yeah, like nameless said, he's using a _greater rod of quickening_. It's alphabetized under "metamagic rod," here. Metamagic rods are from 3.0 Tome & Blood and got put in the SRD with the 3.5 edition, though they still do the same thing. He had to burn the majority of his cash on it, too.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 22, 2004)

Oops... accidentally posted my army here...


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## Wrahn (Mar 22, 2004)

I posted my incomplete army up in RG thread, I have been working on it in two locations, and if I can get my little birds past Fieari, then I should be just about done, tonight.

I am ammused that the assassinations are started by the good guys, but hey, cut the head off the serpent and all that.

Is it possible that you could tell us who is running which armies as we become aware of them?


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## Tyreus (Mar 22, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I am ammused that the assassinations are started by the good guys, but hey, cut the head off the serpent and all that.




Assassinations? Every time a paladin walks into the home of a demon and kills it, it's an assassination. That's all a group of adventurers are. Evil will be afforded no leniency.

I hope they fail the DC:28 fortitude saves. It would really suck if they have deathward up... I think this strike may make our lives much easier. Even if their forces still march upon us with their leaders dead, it will be easier to handle them. I just hope I catch them before they teleport to attack my city. I don't think that they were leaving immediatly though, because they mentioned buffing and summoning things first.


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## Wrahn (Mar 22, 2004)

Tyreus said:
			
		

> Assassinations? Every time a paladin walks into the home of a demon and kills it, it's an assassination. That's all a group of adventurers are. Evil will be afforded no leniency.
> 
> I hope they fail the DC:28 fortitude saves. It would really suck if they have deathward up... I think this strike may make our lives much easier. Even if their forces still march upon us with their leaders dead, it will be easier to handle them. I just hope I catch them before they teleport to attack my city. I don't think that they were leaving immediatly though, because they mentioned buffing and summoning things first.




Hey, I am not condeming, just being amused.  Wait to you see how I operate.

And they made their saves, one with a natural 20, check the in character thread.


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## Tyreus (Mar 22, 2004)

Sorry if I sounded snappy, I was just saying what I said in an argument with my DM one day on how a good guy can be an assassin.   

That royally sucks that they made their saves, but I'm going back in. Can't leave half of my allies army alone in there.


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## Fieari (Mar 22, 2004)

I'd been meaning to ask, but hadn't gotten around to it... what's this baelfull teleport thingy you have?  I haven't seen it before.


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## Wrahn (Mar 22, 2004)

Tyreus,

You have it right, kill the friggin druid.  If he was casting Elemental Swarm, he is at least 17th level.  If that is true, you can wipe out a fourth of his points by killing him.


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## Tyreus (Mar 22, 2004)

Balefull teleport is from the minitures handbook. Basically the target gets a will saving throw, if they fail then they have to switch positions with the caster.

Wrahn: If your in the game now, could you give us a hand? Things look like they're gonna get messy.  That, and I wouldn't want any of the good guys missing exp.


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## Wrahn (Mar 22, 2004)

Tyreus said:
			
		

> Wrahn: If your in the game now, could you give us a hand? Things look like they're gonna get messy.  That, and I wouldn't want any of the good guys missing exp.




I would love to, but I am not in the game yet...

You are doing fine without me though, Druids have poor reflex saves and with no equipment, it shouldn't be much better.  Failing both saves is going to turn him into a fried druid.  

Depending on what else is on the bad guys side though, they may start calling in help as well.


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## Tyreus (Mar 22, 2004)

Oh, WizWrm is the new entry. I saw in the recruitment thread that we got a new guy, and I guess I thought it was you.  

Well, WizWrm, what do you say? Do you have a way to get here? (maybe if nameless sends you an archon?)


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## nameless (Mar 22, 2004)

The archons can't teleport people, only themselves and 50 pounds of objects. If they could do people, Axorius would be there like 3 rounds ago.

If you're gonna stay and fight, the 50 archons will be there blasting away. I don't think there's much that can take 100d6+100 damage from touch attacks.


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## Fieari (Mar 22, 2004)

The following is a map of the LOWER LEVEL of the dragon's lair, where you are fighting in.

```
LOWER LEVEL                  150            225
                              *              *
 0        1         2         3         4    *
 123456789012345678901234567890123456789012
A..................WWWWWWWWWW..............
B.................WWWWWWWWWWWW.......####..
C.#######........##WWWWWWWWWWW#.....######.
D######/###.....#####WWWWWWWW###....#######
E###HH#####.....#################...#######
F###HH#####.....################.....#####.
G###########.....##############.....######.
H.#######################################..
I.......################################...
J.........##########.......###########.....
```
There is a hole in the ceiling in the center room.  # is walkable space, . is stone, and W is a pool of water.  Each ASCII character is a 5'x5' square.

The dragon's hoard, on which he was sitting when you struck him before with the Finger of Death, is E4, E5, F4, F5.  The Mirror of Mental Prowess is located at D7, and is facing southeast.  When you were briefly there, you noticed ravens pouring through it.  Hundreds of ravens.

You caught a brief glance of Air Mephits just outside the room.

Now, I need to know where the Lantern Archons and you are going to appear.  You simply can't all FIT into the room with the hoard.  There isn't ROOM.


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## nameless (Mar 22, 2004)

I just counted the squares in the hoard room and there were more than 50 on the ground level, let alone 3 dimensional spaces in the air for the fairly small (actually, Small) flying archons. To fit the large dragon, I would imagine there would have to be at least 15 feet of headroom in the cave to fit the large-sized dragon. With 15 feet headroom, they would all be distributed through the C, D, and E rows semi-evenly from columns 1 to 10. With 10 feet headroom, They would have to expand slightly into the F row and surround the dragon, and fill in the remaining squares. If there is space after all, then the archons would fill more of a hemisphere around the dragon's hoard to stay away from area attacks. [note that they all have Aid spells running as well, when it comes time to start killing them].


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## Fieari (Mar 22, 2004)

Whooooo boy.  Okay.

If you're all going into the hoard room, you realize that you may get hit by Dan and Zan's fireballs, right?  Unless Dan and Zan are rethinking that plan...

First priority get the mirror I assume?  2nd Priority kill everything in the cavern?  At what point do they retreat?  I'd like to be able to run this upcomming battle (yes, battle, for it will be!) with as little intervention from you as possible, to keep things as fast as I can make it.

I've gotta go make a pie for my mother's birthday.  I'll post results when I get back.


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## nameless (Mar 22, 2004)

There's no communication between them and us since they teleported away, so I won't know they plan on shooting the fireball. But They should reach the room before I do, so I'll probably be entering just after they launch the fireball. If not, then they will most definitely see a room full of friendlies and probably not launch the fireball after all. It won't hurt the red dragon anyways, so they're better off just targeting the druid with stuff. With the archons concentrating their fire on the druid (or the dragon if the druid isn't within 30 feet), they will likely kill him in a single round.

So my plan is to still fill the room with archons and blast away, stealing the mirror with the one and teleporting away. First priority is to get the mirror, second is to help the sorcerors and kill the generals. If the attacks appear ineffective, or the generals wipe out more than 1/3 of the archons in a single round, then retreat immediately after getting/destroying the mirror.

EDIT: Also, if I didn't make it clear, I want to concentrate fire on one target at a time. First the druid, and if that becomes a bad idea (or if he dies), to switch to the dragon, still performing a retreat at the time specified above. In terms of attack vs. retreat, I'm trying to be as reasonable as possible. If it looks like we're winning and not taking too heavy casualties, then stay until it's finished. If things start to look bad enough, then full retreat.


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## Tyreus (Mar 23, 2004)

mmmm, pie...

New stratagy:
Dan will be teleporting to J-1-9, with Zan going to J-1-1. Dan will cast finger of death at the druid. Zan will cast wall of force to cover one of the bottlenecks facing the dragon, but only covering enough area to stop the dragon, so the archons can still get through. If the druid dies, then Dan and Zan will let the archons deal with the dragon while Zan uses his contingeancy to switch places with the closest creature to the mirror. He will then cast his quickened teleport on himself and the mirror to go home. If an archon has already taken the mirror, Zan and Dan will wait untill round 2 and then cast a couple of widened fireballs and widened cone of colds around, trying to get the most minions in the AoE, but not hitting any allies. 

If the druid survives, then Dan and Zan will both cast quickened disintigrates on him. Replace this with the teleport and fireballs/cone of colds.

(this is just to show you roughly what I'm trying to achieve here, since you said you would like little intervention from us.  )  
Dan and Zan teleport in to there respective squares, and Dan opens with a finger of death on the druid, who dies obediantly this time. Zan cast a wall of force on the described area. An archon makes off with the mirror while the others fly over to the dragon and paste him to the wall. Dan and Zan happily nuke the bats and what not coming through the portal.

Edit: To bad the first battle isn't with lots of troops, but when I saw the opportunity to strike I couldn't pass it up. Sorry if this whole thing irritates anybody.


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## WizWrm (Mar 23, 2004)

Sorry if I'm not what you were expecting. 

I can do the double-_gate_ trick and get all my troops there in one or two rounds, but only once per day, so I'd have to leave the _gates_ open if I wanted to be able to get back in the next 24 hours. Blueshore is nowhere near our capitol, fortunately, but still, leaving the _gates_ open like that...

However, Zedrihar doesn't know what's going on right now, so I'll need a clue-in before I can take action.

I have a nice array of combat-oriented spell-like abilities spread across my inevitables, and my construct troops are virtually immune to mass small-scale attacks, thanks to their plentiful hit points and damage reduction. Plus, I can send up a bunch of flying shocker lizard groups to cover our heads, if need be. Any ideas?


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## Wrahn (Mar 23, 2004)

Tyreus,

I am not sure what disintegration you are using, but the one from the 3.5 SRD reads:



> Disintegrate
> Transmutation
> Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6
> Components: V, S, M/DF
> ...




There is a save and if you make it you only take 5d6 damage


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## nameless (Mar 23, 2004)

I reccommend Chain Lightning instead. Reflex saves are both the Dragon's and the Druid's weak point. Plus, it won't hit any friendlies and will kill a bunch of secondary enemies at the same time. Empower the Chain Lightning and it'll really put a hurting on them.


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## Fieari (Mar 23, 2004)

Just wanted to say, I've done all the dice rolling.  Most of your Archons are dead, but then, most of the Mephits are too... not from their fighting, but rather because the dragon used his breath weapon, not caring that his own minions would be caught in the blast.

But better news for you, when I rolled their fort saves, they both failed.

I'm not posting IC yet, because this is a disgusting rout, and I want to make sure that none of your stupendous luck has been due to a mistake on my part.  Giving the bad guys a chance to ruleslawyer OOC a way for them to make it out of this alive... don't worry, I'd do the same for you.

Just a notice that if I didn't make any mistakes, you guys have earned a FANTASTIC victory.


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## Fieari (Mar 23, 2004)

Oops, sorry guys... turns out they were obligated a spot check to see you in the hallway, since the dragon has blindsense.  That means yelling to the druid as a free action, meaning the druid can cast something nasty at you before your initiative comes up... what would you do in the case of an earthquake causing a cave in?


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## nameless (Mar 23, 2004)

I'd be amenable to keeping a larger portion of my archons alive and saving some mephits at the same time, if that would make it a little less severe. Ideally, they were going to be surrounding the dragon, so unless he managed to get away from all of them, no more than maybe 1/3 would be in the same cone. Likewise, only about that many mephits would be blown away.

Finally, the Aid spell that the archons have would probably give them enough hit points to survive the blast if they make their saves (which most of them won't anyways), or if they rolled high on their d8+10 temporary hp. In any case, there's a good chance they're dying and not dead (same with the mephits), so a little first aid in the next few rounds might save units on both sides.

I hope the Dragon and Druid are dusted, though. *grin*


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## Fieari (Mar 23, 2004)

Will take that into account.  Note that if the disintegrates hit, they more or less are dusted.  The Druid for certain... the Dragon maybe not, but he'll take so much damage at once he'll need an additional fort save or die, and even if he makes that, he'll be so weak a commoner could likely kill him with a pointed stick.

That's if the spells get off... earthquake?


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## Tyreus (Mar 23, 2004)

Dan and Zan will hold actions, waiting for the earthquake to end. Immediatly afterwards they will resume actions. Note: Even if their partially traped, they can still use quickened spells. 

Edit: I just looked it up, my wall of force can't be dispelled. Only a rod of cancelation, a sphere of annihilation, disintigration, and mages disjunction can get rid of it.


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

Really now.... hmmm.... okay.  IC post comming soon.  Things are looking good for you.


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

Also, dragons get *blind sense* not blind sight in 3.5. It requires a line of affect, which the dragon doesn't have because of the wall of force. So, if I'm correct, then our previous actions should be unaffected.


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## nameless (Mar 24, 2004)

Yes, also the earthquake would need line of effect, otherwise it can't affect anything past the wall of force.


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

MWAHAHAHAHA!!! Now evil dies!


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

They're asking for a quote as to where it says blindsense needs line of effect.  I'll admit I can't find it either... although it does make LOGICAL sense.  I'd house rule it, but for the fact that house rules need to be declared BEFOREhand.


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## WizWrm (Mar 24, 2004)

3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Blindsense: Other creatures have blindsense, a lesser ability that lets the creature notice things it cannot see, but without the precision of blindsight. The creature with blindsense usually does not need to make Spot or Listen checks to notice and locate creatures within range of its blindsense ability, *provided that it has line of effect to that creature. *Any opponent the creature cannot see has total concealment (50% miss chance) against the creature with blindsense, and the blindsensing creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.




http://www.geocities.com/sovelior/srd/abilitiesAndConditions.html


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

Your my hero! So this battle goes to us... (and soon the war!)


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

Turns out Earthquake, while it can't be cast PAST the WoF, can be cast in FRONT of it, and have the effects pass through.  That won't stop your disintegrates though.  You'll just need to get some help getting out from under the rubble.  And that's if the druid can convince me that his Truesight went into effect soon enough to make it matter.


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## WizWrm (Mar 24, 2004)

Well, they still have a third player at full strength (unless some of his troops were in the room), and we don't know where the rest of their armies are - we've only seen a handful of mephits and a heap of ravens so far, besides their battlelords.

Also, we need to think how vulnerable we are, if it was this easy for us to make a lightning-speed strike like that. I'm thinking we should go about burning cash and points into magic and clerics that can cast _forbiddance_ or other spells, to block scrying and teleportation in as much of our realm as possible.


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

This is why I attacked sooner then planned, so they didn't do the same to us. (which, from the overheard conversation, is what is sounded like)


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

If you pull this off, and win the entire cave (looking possible at this point), you're going to get the Dragon's Hoard.  That oughta pay for quite a bit...


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

I think we should combine our resources so we can get more for our money. We should either beef up the Sky Lance, the Spire, or the capital. One super fortress is better then a couple weaker ones. (the same principle for the troops)


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## WizWrm (Mar 24, 2004)

We should collapse all the passages into the cave, then cast _forbiddance_ or _hallow_ with _dimensional anchor_ tied to it; and _screen_ across the whole area. That gives us a very unexpected, safe base, though we'd have to work some way for us to get in and out; maybe we could leave a corner open to teleportation or something.


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## Wrahn (Mar 24, 2004)

WizWrm said:
			
		

> We should collapse all the passages into the cave, then cast _forbiddance_ or _hallow_ with _dimensional anchor_ tied to it; and _screen_ across the whole area. That gives us a very unexpected, safe base, though we'd have to work some way for us to get in and out; maybe we could leave a corner open to teleportation or something.




LOL, you just described the defenses I set up on my base.

Hallow with Dimensional anchor can be made to only effect non good characters.


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

Don't forget that the King has charged you with protecting the KINGDOM... not just your own selves.... hehe.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 24, 2004)

Fieari, barring a stronghold, I believe I'm ready to go (army posted in rouge's gallery, strategy & organization soon to come)


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

I'm not adding anyone else until this battle is settled (just waiting on a post from evil making sure they haven't thought of any other rules exploits for their advantage...).  After that, evil has another army ready as well, so you'll go right on in.


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## Wrahn (Mar 24, 2004)

Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm not adding anyone else until this battle is settled (just waiting on a post from evil making sure they haven't thought of any other rules exploits for their advantage...).  After that, evil has another army ready as well, so you'll go right on in.




Hey,

Posted this morning in the Rogues gallery I was good to go, how do we decide who is next in line?


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

I suppose it should be first come first serve.  If there's a volunteer to wait, that's fine too.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 24, 2004)

Wrahn can go in first then.  That'll give me a bit more time to finish the strategy & organization post


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

Okay, this much has been decided: The dragon, upon noticing that his blindsense can't see into the hallway anymore (to be fair, he HAD mentioned he was watching for the hallway) realizes that you're back, and out for blood.  He rushes over to the Wall of Force, and readies an action to breathe on you the moment the wall goes down.

You BOTH have readied actions to act the moment the wall goes down.  Thus, if you take the wall down immediately, as planned, I'll have the effects go off SIMULTANEOUSLY.  You take damage, but the disintegrate goes off.

Would knowing this cause you to delay your attack (hold wall of force longer)?  I haven't gotten the confirmed druid revised action yet, but it may or may not be an earthquake... the dragon shouted orders to protect the mirror.


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

Nope, let the fire come! My attack will hurt much worse.


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

Thought so.  Indeed, your attack will turn him to dust.  Confirmed*.  Not sure about his yet, but it can't POSSIBLY be THAT bad.




*Unless the Druid's revised action is something amazing and drastic that will save his sorry arse, which I doubt is possible at this time.


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

So unless this amazing thing happens, both of the enemy generals are dust?

EDIT: Before Zan dismisses the wall, he tells the dragon: "I don't respond kindly to threats against my family." just before turning the insolent beast into powder.


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

Well, the dragon is almost CERTAINLY... the druid might decide to do something cowardly like run away.  That would save his skin.  That'd be just about the only thing that would do it.

Oh, and your Archons are safe.  Dragon is saving his breath for you instead of wasting it on your troops.


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## Tyreus (Mar 24, 2004)

Now we need to pick a location to be our main base. I have 18k with an additional dragon hoard (not sure how much) to spend on protecting it.


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## Fieari (Mar 24, 2004)

Check the RG for your rewards.  60k of hoard, to be specific, plus experience, plus points as soon as you can go recruiting with war stories.


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## Carnifex (Mar 24, 2004)

Nice one guys!

On choosing a main base - has the map that Fieari put together got the settlement locations marked on it? We should probably choose somewhere that is both relatively central and also close to where the front line's gonna be.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 24, 2004)

My personal vote is to buff up the skyship 

After all, moving targets are so much harder to hit and more fun to operate from.


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## Tyreus (Mar 25, 2004)

It has my vote too. We will be able to use it for offence and defence. It'll have to be made larger to accomadate all of our armies. I have about 78k to help out. I'm thinking Mage's Private Sanctum is good in this case, along with Dimensional Lock. I have the spells, but I will need someone to permanancy the Sanctum. I can recast the Dimensional Locks every 16 days.


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## WizWrm (Mar 25, 2004)

Fieari, is it possible for me to rearrange and reassign my treasury and spent gold? I don't think I want to carry through with the _decanters of endless water_ idea, I can find ways to do things (like transportation and communication) much better and cheaper, and I want to be able to either buff up my own stronghold or contribute to the Skylance. I wouldn't ask this, except that I haven't done anything in-game except talk to Axorius with _sending_; in that case I would make sure that I have an item that allows me to communicate equally well.


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## Fieari (Mar 25, 2004)

If we restart the game, then yes.  _(hopes bribery will work)_


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## Wrahn (Mar 25, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> An important one that a lot of people used seems to be the Mirror of Mental Prowess. It functions off of Clairvoyance, which has a range of Long (as opposed to unlimited in 3.0). So it can spy and open a portal, but it'll only go a few hundred yards. It also takes 10 minutes to cast, in the same way that Scrying takes an hour to cast. (Greater Scrying takes only a round and lasts an hour per level, but it much harder to get). It makes scouting creatures much more important if a stationary and invulnerable magical sensor can't be used to find every bit of intelligence.




This is the relevant passage about the mirror of mental prowess:



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> View other places as if with clairvoyance, but vision extends even onto other planes if the viewer is sufficiently familiar with them.




I believe it is saying that it operates *like* the Clairvoyance sensor and that you can not scry people, only places, but is not the Clairvoyance spell thus is not limited by range.

My "Fortress" is on a different plane, I do not believe that you interpretation would effect where I could scry at all and that is my problem.  If it can scry on different planes (And anywhere on those planes as it is not seperated by distance buy by levels of existence, any point on a different plane is the same non-distance away from any other point), it make no sense that scrying a different plane gives you greater scrying ability than it would on the plane you are on.


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## nameless (Mar 25, 2004)

I took that passage to mean that you could see creatures that are ethereal, or astral, or shadow, or whatever other plane they could be on while you look at that spot. For instance, an ethereal cleric in the middle of your stronghold might be visible if you wanted to look at the ethereal in that area instead of the material.

Personally, I think it's pretty useless if it can only go to Long range, but they did it on purpose, for whatever reason. If you want to scry, get a Crystal Ball, it's cheaper and more portable than the Mirror anyways.


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## Wrahn (Mar 25, 2004)

I disagree on that interpretation, though I can see where one might come to that conclusion. I think it is pretty clear that the intend it to extend to different planes of existence by the statement "That you are sufficently familiar with."  Also using clairvoyance as a base already take into account what you can or can not see.  Using the previous editions of D&D for reference, I don't think there is any doubt of what they intended.

The sheer fact that it is over 4 times the cost of a crystal ball should give you some indication that it is suppose to be more powerful not less. 

Further:



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Command Word: If no activation method is suggested either in the magic item description or by the nature of the item, assume that a command word is needed to activate it. Command word activation means that a character speaks the word and the item activates. No other special knowledge is needed...
> ...Activating a command word magic item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity




In other words, it does not take an hour to use a crystal ball (which I believe in the actual DMG they use as an example) nor does it take 10 minutes to use a Mirror of Mental Prowess.


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## Wrahn (Mar 25, 2004)

Nameless and Wizwrm,

I was just thinking about something I think I should warn you about.  I have been in the teleport ambush scenario in my real life campaign.  A Demon lord was trying to kill us and in so doing, elevate itself to Princedom.  Well finally we said enough was enough, used Gate to pull him to us and ambush the heck out of him (we still nearly died, but we managed to kill him)

This little trick is costlier in 3.5 and is a little obscure, it will only work on extraplanar creatures, so Dan, Zan, and Ashalla are safe, you two however, if someone gets creative, may have problems.


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## nameless (Mar 25, 2004)

That tactic is questionable in any case. "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to go through the gate." ... "Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event." Any _specific_ target is undoubtedly a unique being, and I would argue to my grave that any specific target is not compelled to go through the gate against its will.

If I was DM in your game, I'd have said your idea was creative, but ultimately laughed at you.

And as far as the Mirror of Mental Prowess... yes, it is very expensive, and should be powerful. Since I have one now, I'd certainly like to get the most out of it. But the one line about "any plane that you are sufficiently familiar with" doesn't explicitly overrule the range entry of Clairvoyance, but rather, seems to overrule the "vision doesn't reach to other planes" text of the spell. To me, it's a case of using the spell from the PHB, and changing what it tells me to change, which is not very much.

Fieari will make a ruling either way, at some point. If he wants to get less Scrying, then I think he'll probably rule the spell to have limited range, just because it's convenient for the purposes of this game.


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## Wrahn (Mar 26, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> That tactic is questionable in any case. "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to go through the gate." ... "Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event." Any _specific_ target is undoubtedly a unique being, and I would argue to my grave that any specific target is not compelled to go through the gate against its will.
> 
> If I was DM in your game, I'd have said your idea was creative, but ultimately laughed at you.




Since it specifies you can call individuals which is seperate from unique being, then in fact you would be mis applying the rule and laughing at me would only be making a fool of yourself.  Argue all you want, you are not a unique being, a demon lord perhaps (but he was just an advance Balor).

Just for reference:


			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> By naming a particular being or kind of being as you cast the spell, you cause the gate to open in the immediate vicinity of the desired creature and pull the subject through, willing or unwilling.






			
				nameless said:
			
		

> And as far as the Mirror of Mental Prowess... yes, it is very expensive, and should be powerful. Since I have one now, I'd certainly like to get the most out of it. But the one line about "any plane that you are sufficiently familiar with" doesn't explicitly overrule the range entry of Clairvoyance, but rather, seems to overrule the "vision doesn't reach to other planes" text of the spell. To me, it's a case of using the spell from the PHB, and changing what it tells me to change, which is not very much.




If you look at my original arguement, it said that the mirror being more powerful scrying another plane, that it is on scrying the one it is on was ridiculous, it was just in support of that arguement.


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## Carnifex (Mar 26, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> That tactic is questionable in any case. "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to go through the gate." ... "Deities and unique beings cannot be controlled in any event." Any _specific_ target is undoubtedly a unique being, and I would argue to my grave that any specific target is not compelled to go through the gate against its will.
> 
> If I was DM in your game, I'd have said your idea was creative, but ultimately laughed at you.
> 
> .




I'm afraid you've misunderstood the meaning of 'unique being'. A unique being refers to genuine one-of-a-kind characters - like a demon lord. A leonal or suchlike is *not* a unique being, even if they are individuals with quite specific character.

However, IIRC - you can't open a gate onto somewhere else in the same plane, only other planes, can't you? So as long as the celestials stay primarily on the material plane then they should be fine. Not to mention that even if they do get caught out, they probably get a Will save. Furthermore, the enemy would have to cast the Gate in an area not covered by a Forbiddance so the called celestial, who will most likely have an innate teleportation abilitiy, can just 'port away back home.

I don't think we really need to worry too much about that tactic, but it's something to keep in mind, I guess.


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## Wrahn (Mar 26, 2004)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> I'm afraid you've misunderstood the meaning of 'unique being'. A unique being refers to genuine one-of-a-kind characters - like a demon lord. A leonal or suchlike is *not* a unique being, even if they are individuals with quite specific character.
> 
> However, IIRC - you can't open a gate onto somewhere else in the same plane, only other planes, can't you? So as long as the celestials stay primarily on the material plane then they should be fine. Not to mention that even if they do get caught out, they probably get a Will save. Furthermore, the enemy would have to cast the Gate in an area not covered by a Forbiddance so the called celestial, who will most likely have an innate teleportation abilitiy, can just 'port away back home.
> 
> I don't think we really need to worry too much about that tactic, but it's something to keep in mind, I guess.




While in principle I believe you are correct, a couple of things occured to me, to prompt me to place the warning.  First, while Gate can not be used to travel from point to point in the same plane, it does not make that specification under the calling of a being.  Though, were I running the game I would impose that limitation, it does not prevent said ambushers from going to another plane (after all they have access to gate) and doing it from there.

Second, there is no save versus gate and no spell resistence either and most of the the immunities assume an unbeatable spell resistence.  A case could be made that forbiddence couldn't protect against it as there is no spell resistence allowed (for instance it was possible to maze an Iron Golem in 3.0).  However in the current climate, I doubt that particular argument would fly.

I agree, it is unlikely that it will come into play, it was just a piece of my experience that I thinking of and thought I should warn those who it may (though unlikely) effect.  To my knowledge they have no clue who the "Battle Lords" are other than Dan and Zan, so this is just something to keep in mind once the game advances.


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## Tyreus (Mar 26, 2004)

None of the current battle lords know who I am, the one's that did are piles of ash. Right?


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## WizWrm (Mar 26, 2004)

While I'm safe in my anonymity for the moment, none of my extraplanar leaders have teleport to get back, if they were to be attacked in this manner.

Maybe _we_ should use this tactic on _them_ (assuming it's declared legal)? Is there an easy way to find out if any of them picked demons for their army?


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## Carnifex (Mar 26, 2004)

WizWrm said:
			
		

> While I'm safe in my anonymity for the moment, none of my extraplanar leaders have teleport to get back, if they were to be attacked in this manner.
> 
> Maybe _we_ should use this tactic on _them_ (assuming it's declared legal)? Is there an easy way to find out if any of them picked demons for their army?




We could try divinations like legend lores and suchlike? Alternatively, animal spies could be sent out to check as best they can. My army's not really the right kinda force for that though, others can probably manage this better than my band of surly dwarves


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## Wrahn (Mar 26, 2004)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> We could try divinations like legend lores and suchlike? Alternatively, animal spies could be sent out to check as best they can. My army's not really the right kinda force for that though, others can probably manage this better than my band of surly dwarves




I would just as well prefer we not do it, because as soon as we do, they will start and that leaves us vulnerable.  Second it really is kind of cheesy.  Though humorously, we could summon the leader of one side, compel him to attack another evil side and wipe out his forces while dies to the full might of the other side.

In anycase I would prefer to leave this can of worms closed.  Fieari has made clear his distaste for the teleport ambush and this is just a variant of that.

On that note, my army may be about 10 times more cheesy than that particular tactic.  Even if I don't get to wipe out any armies in an open field, I can quickly destroy fortifications and the like.  Any comments or concerns?


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## Tyreus (Mar 27, 2004)

Nameless: Did you get any CR points? If so, how many? (I know we get different amounts, I just want to get an idea on what Fieari is handing out)


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## Tyreus (Mar 27, 2004)

Fieari: You can pretty much ignore this thread, only a debate has occured.



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> Nameless and Wizwrm,
> 
> I was just thinking about something I think I should warn you about. I have been in the teleport ambush scenario in my real life campaign. A Demon lord was trying to kill us and in so doing, elevate itself to Princedom. Well finally we said enough was enough, used Gate to pull him to us and ambush the heck out of him (we still nearly died, but we managed to kill him)
> 
> This little trick is costlier in 3.5 and is a little obscure, it will only work on extraplanar creatures, so Dan, Zan, and Ashalla are safe, you two however, if someone gets creative, may have problems.




This is what they're arguing about. Ruling?


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## Fieari (Mar 27, 2004)

CR Points will be awarded in the IC thread, and only in responce to IC actions.


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## Tyreus (Mar 27, 2004)

I was just looking for a range. I was wondering what kind of cr your handing out, like 20 as apposed to 500.


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## Fieari (Mar 27, 2004)

I promise it will be more than 20, and less than 500.  How's that?    

Oh, and named people can't be involuntarily summoned by gates, although they can TRY to summon you with a gate, and if you REALLY WANT TO you can answer that call.  You probably won't want to though.

As to the mirror, if you ever figure out how to make it work (ie-- find the command word) it has unlimited range, but takes ten minutes to refocus.  Kinda a mix of both worlds.


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## Tyreus (Mar 27, 2004)

Hell, I'd answer that... with 4 disintegrates.


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## WizWrm (Mar 27, 2004)

Fieari, what's the result of my action? In brief, I'm calling down the animal scouts (ravens and rats) who are currently passing through the vicinity and using my _speak with animals_ item to find out what they have seen about enemy territory and troop movements, focusing first on those scouts who have traveled farthest.


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## Carnifex (Mar 27, 2004)

Just checked the IC thread to see a transparent dragon, probably our old friend who got disintegrated now in undead form, has turned up to wreak his revenge   

_Definitely_ getting that ghost touch enhancement on my lord's axe now, for sure! This might also be a good time for the high level cleric of Theren to turn up and turn undead


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## Tyreus (Mar 27, 2004)

The ghost is the dragon. I don't know how, but he is. Now I'm going to make him pay.  I don't think he's foolish enough to attack me alone, so watch out everyone.


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## nameless (Mar 27, 2004)

It's undead? I can probably kill it in one touch with my Lay on Hands. =D


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## WizWrm (Mar 27, 2004)

If it takes you longer than three or four rounds to kill it, I'll _gate_ in, but I'd rather save my transportation for an immediate counter-attack, if, with your _scrying_, we can find a good location to do so.


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## Carnifex (Mar 27, 2004)

Tyreus said:
			
		

> The ghost is the dragon. I don't know how, but he is. Now I'm going to make him pay.  I don't think he's foolish enough to attack me alone, so watch out everyone.




I guess he is most likely a ghost, since that's the most likely form of undead to arise spontaneously (if he were animated with a necromancy spell he'd be a zombie and other forms of undead generally are spawned when killed by an undead of that type). And ghosts are *nasty*.

And they also tend to reform again a few days after they get killed, IIRC. Generally you have to find out what's keeping them from the afterlife and resolve it. This may of course be different - indeed I *hope* it's different or else this guy will keep on coming back to get us   

Thinking about it, a wall of force might be a good implement for trying to hem in a ghost, since IIRC force effects go into the ethereal as well. And magic missile too, of course


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## Carnifex (Mar 27, 2004)

WizWrm said:
			
		

> If it takes you longer than three or four rounds to kill it, I'll _gate_ in, but I'd rather save my transportation for an immediate counter-attack, if, with your _scrying_, we can find a good location to do so.




What would you counterattack though? The undead dragon is all that's left of his army, isn't it? And the other forces have probably made damn sure their stronghold's are forbiddance'd now.


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## Fieari (Mar 27, 2004)

Looks like I'm going to need to map out Lowgate...


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## nameless (Mar 27, 2004)

I can heal once per day for 100 damage (Will save half) and lay on hands for another 117 damage, and then throw some cure critical wounds if it somehow survives. Any undead that is a reasonable CR won't have enough hit points to take that much damage. The original dragon had 13 HD, which means the ghost probably only has 90 hp. I can do walls of force, but that will only make the dragon attack something else, unless we can trap it on 6 sides with Walls of Force. 

Oh my god, that would be sweet!

I'm still gonna kill it with positive energy, though. Positive energy, negative energy, force effects, and ghost touch effects have no incorporeal miss chance.


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## WizWrm (Mar 27, 2004)

Well, if needed, I can always _dimension door_ leapfrog across the Green Desert and find a place myself. Shouldn't take more than a couple hours, and much less to cross the desert, with _dimension door_ once per round for 960 feet each; that's 110 miles per hour.


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## WizWrm (Mar 27, 2004)

Fieari said:
			
		

> Looks like I'm going to need to map out Lowgate...



 Why? Is it attacking specific places, outside the town square where the speechifying was going on?


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## Fieari (Mar 27, 2004)

Well, not a DETAIL map, but I need a general sense of where things are... and a sense of scale too.


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## nameless (Mar 28, 2004)

Bibliophile in the Rogue's Gallery said:
			
		

> We should also take this as a warning, and start preparing to fight undead, _now_.  After all, if someone bothers to take one of the undead creation spells, probably a great majority of their army is undead.




I've taken undead into consideration. Armies of undead mooks will get wiped out by Holy Word without a roll at all. My clerics all have the Sun domain, which destroys undead instead of turning them. I gave one of my artillery wizards an item that Sunbursts 1/day (killing light-sensitive undead and doing massive damage [15d6 if I recall] + blindness to all other undead in a 80 ft. radius). Command undead is a level 2 spell that works wonders on undead also.

The only thing that worries me are incorporeal undead, and undead that create spawns. Neither is a cheap baseline unit, though some fall below baseline. The best strategy I can see to use against them is keeping an offensive push, and making sure to very carefully track their troop movements. If they ambush us, it's all over, but if we ambush them and keep them at range while we nickel and dime them, their extra-expensive units with the same defensive power as ours will go down quickly.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 28, 2004)

Nameless: true enough there.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 29, 2004)

WizWrm, perhaps you should take that several-hour trip into the evil lands and bring back some better intelligence than what we have now.  I get this awful feeling that we're not being aggressive enough.  The first strike was good, yes, but we can't allow them to gain the initiative (especially that we have so much more to lose than they do, i.e. flourishing cities vs ravaged ones, etc).

If we can keep our attacking momentum up enough, then we should be able to completely wipe them out.  If we can't... then we risk giving them the game.


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## WizWrm (Mar 29, 2004)

Hm, I had actually typed that out but changed my mind during preview. I'll put it back in.


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## nameless (Mar 29, 2004)

If we stop their teleportation magic, then the Skylance brings the fight to them in a way that they can't prevent. If there are any living members of the army, they can only march for 8-12 hours a day, which will be 24-36 miles, depending on the fatigue and subdual damage they're willing to suffer. The Skylance goes 96 miles per day with no effort from the troops, and it's got the defensive advantage of a fortress even on offensive campaigns. Compared to teleportation, it's slow as molasses, but compared to marching, carrying supplies, and camping at nights, it's lightning-quick.


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## Tyreus (Mar 29, 2004)

I might have enough money to get teleport for it, but if I change my troops and they can teleport like yours, it wouldn't be nessesarry for you or me. The other generals might be willing to spend money on it though.


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## nameless (Mar 29, 2004)

Most of my troops can't teleport, I have about 200 mooks that have been sitting at home twiddling their thumbs.

And the cost to improve a 7 space fortress to teleport is really disgusting. 50,000 gp per space will cost 350,000 gp. There is a piece of wondroud architecture that can let anybody who steps on it greater teleport to wherever they want, but they don't have a means to get back.


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## Tyreus (Mar 30, 2004)

:\ 350,000? Thats crazy... Dan and Zan have to wait for two more levels untill teleportation circle. If my construct idea goes through, each one of them will be able to take 4 people with them. So if I come up with 50 of them, then they will be able to teleport all 200 of your guys there and back.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 30, 2004)

Wrahn: perhaps in light of what's occurring, a Miracle would be in order to bring that dragon to the surface where nameless and Tyreus could get at it?


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## WizWrm (Mar 30, 2004)

Fieari, were you waiting to finish the ghost dragon thing before resolving my scouting action?


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## Fieari (Mar 30, 2004)

More or less.  That kind of scouting does take time, after all... you may travel at 120 miles per hour, but the desert is 160 miles across if you cut STRAIGHT across.  So that's over an hour just there.  Said scouting will take all day.


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## WizWrm (Mar 30, 2004)

Eh? A little over an hour to cross the desert, then at most four hours in Evil territory before I decide either to refine my search pattern or start heading back.


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## Jemal (Mar 30, 2004)

I was gone for a while, now I'm back.  Will post up my army ASAP, but finishing up all my OOC "I'm back" posts first.  For explanation, check out my "EXPERIENCE" OOC thread.

Also, looking forward to joining you guys on the fight, but I SERIOUSLY need to figure out which of those two armies to finish stating up..


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## nameless (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm really wondering if the ghost dragon is being run properly. I don't know what the Ghost Dragon template (I assume that's what it is) does, but most dragons don't have the maneuverability to turn around on a dime and go in the opposite direction. Most incorporeal creatures have perfect maneuverability, but nothing has the speed of a dragon and perfect maneuverability in the core rules, so that's up in the air.

No matter what, he can't dart out of the ground and back in before we get an action. He has to move out, take his standard action, and then end his turn. If I were to teleport adjacent to him on my action, he can't leave my threatened area without an AoO. If he's within 600 feet of me, at least, I can charge him and get off an attack.

And there's the matter of moving around underground. Incorporeal creatures can only be adjacent to an open area, so he can't go very far underground. While underground, he has no senses, except for the ability to sense living creatures within 5 ft. So there is no navigation underground, and no way to tell if he is next to a wizard, a commoner, or another dragon.

It only takes me one action to get at the dragon anywhere in the city, I think my attack should have happened before the dragon even went underground the first time.


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## Carnifex (Mar 30, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> I'm really wondering if the ghost dragon is being run properly. I don't know what the Ghost Dragon template (I assume that's what it is) does, but most dragons don't have the maneuverability to turn around on a dime and go in the opposite direction. Most incorporeal creatures have perfect maneuverability, but nothing has the speed of a dragon and perfect maneuverability in the core rules, so that's up in the air.
> 
> No matter what, he can't dart out of the ground and back in before we get an action. He has to move out, take his standard action, and then end his turn. If I were to teleport adjacent to him on my action, he can't leave my threatened area without an AoO. If he's within 600 feet of me, at least, I can charge him and get off an attack.
> 
> ...




All true.

Here's the relevant text on incorporeal creatures:



> An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object’s exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.




But to surface, attack *and* go underground again takes 2 rounds unless the dragon has spring attack, that's for sure. It can't tell what it's about to attack if it stays inside the ground when it attacks, suffers a 50% miss chance on its attacks, and attacks can then be made against it if readied. If it actually emerges fully it's opening itself up to a whole world of hurt.

Also, I don't know if any of our guys on the scene can wall of force but if they can, just stick it under the dragon before it can submerge again.


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## Wrahn (Mar 30, 2004)

Bibliophile said:
			
		

> Wrahn: perhaps in light of what's occurring, a Miracle would be in order to bring that dragon to the surface where nameless and Tyreus could get at it?




Ashalla doesn't have it memorized, and there are other ways to deal with this problem.  I think if any of us get a round on the dragon it is dead (or at least more dead, if it operates like a ghost it will just reform in a few days).

Do you all need help?  I think my army can kill it even given the one round surface and submerge.


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## Tyreus (Mar 30, 2004)

Not even spring attack will allow him to do this, he needs adroit flyby attack, from the draconomicon. Wrahn, I don't think your mages can do anything I can't do to it, the problem is there's nothing a mage can do to him so he won't come back. I thought about casting limited wish, but haven't decided anything yet. Suggestions?

EDIT: Also, Dan and Zan along with my entire army have readied actions. Did the townspeople go into the cavern like they were told?


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## Wrahn (Mar 30, 2004)

Tyreus said:
			
		

> Not even spring attack will allow him to do this, he needs adroit flyby attack, from the draconomicon. Wrahn, I don't think your mages can do anything I can't do to it, the problem is there's nothing a mage can do to him so he won't come back. I thought about casting limited wish, but haven't decided anything yet. Suggestions?
> 
> EDIT: Also, Dan and Zan along with my entire army have readied actions. Did the townspeople go into the cavern like they were told?




I can be on him the instant he materializes, by opening a gate and firing 99 magic missiles at him...

...However, if you would prefer to do it, I won't "steal" your thunder.

A ghost needs some resolution to why it has returned.  I would guess it either wants it's hoard back or it wishes revenge on those who killed him.  We either need to figure out what his trigger is, or we need a trap the soul spell.  In either case we need to get rid of him now and deal with him when he reforms.


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## nameless (Mar 30, 2004)

I can Wall of Force at will, but it's close ranged, so I'd have to be right next to it anyways. Plus, if he has perfect maneuverability (which he seems to), he can just go around it. I still believe that it wouldn't have been able to escape me before it went underground the first time. I only suggested a multi-step action because the dragon was messing around doing noncombat things like flying in circles to scare people. In a pinch I could have easily teleported adjacent to it and just touched it. If it's draining people of life, that means they will return as Wights or worse, and might give it temporary hp. That's why it's important to get this sorted out, because each little dive probably makes it stronger.

Getting rid of a ghost isn't well-defined mechanically, it need a lot of DM adjudication. If someone can do a powerful divination like Legend Lore, maybe we can figure out how to sever the treasure from the dragon ghost, with something like a hallow spell, or break enchantment, or geas, etc. Destroying it will probably also do the trick, but that means that we don't get it either.


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## Carnifex (Mar 30, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> Getting rid of a ghost isn't well-defined mechanically, it need a lot of DM adjudication. If someone can do a powerful divination like Legend Lore, maybe we can figure out how to sever the treasure from the dragon ghost, with something like a hallow spell, or break enchantment, or geas, etc. Destroying it will probably also do the trick, but that means that we don't get it either.




I dunno, getting rid of a ghost *seems* pretty well defined. There are two ways. One is to just keep on destroying it, since every time this is done it makes a d20+ its HD check against DC 16. Failure means its gone for good. Of course, the chances are that this dragon will have enough hp to only be failing on a very low roll, perhaps only on a 1. The other way is to deal with the reason it is not passing on - divinations seem a good idea, and it's quite likely to be hoard-related since we are talking about a dragon here. You haven't spent all that money yet, have you?    We may need to go and give it back...


Also, I'm pretty sure that it can't create spawn. (I really, really hope it can't!).

In terms of its perfect manoeuverability, 







> Ghosts have a fly speed of 30 feet, unless the base creature has a higher fly speed, with perfect maneuverability.




So yes it is gonna be hard to pin down, but as it has to actually come out of the ground to attack, magic missiles are a surefire way to hurt it


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## Wrahn (Mar 30, 2004)

Carnifex said:
			
		

> So yes it is gonna be hard to pin down, but as it has to actually come out of the ground to attack, magic missiles are a surefire way to hurt it




Unless it has magic resistence or shield up.  I can use the Mirror of Mental Prowess to ask a quesion about a creature pictured in it.

Mirror Mirror on my floor
How do you make the dragon no more?

I hate using resources like that so quickly though, but I don't really see a way around it without this thing hounding us periodically.


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## Tyreus (Mar 30, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> ...However, if you would prefer to do it, I won't "steal" your thunder.




Don't be an ass. I realise that you can kill it in one round, just like most of us, I just don't want it to keep coming back. If there is no other option, then go ahead.


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## Wrahn (Mar 30, 2004)

Tyreus said:
			
		

> Don't be an ass. I realise that you can kill it in one round, just like most of us, I just don't want it to keep coming back. If there is no other option, then go ahead.




Quit being so sensitive, I was not trying to imply that you were trying to be a glory hound (thus the quotations around the word steal).  I do think the magic missile route is safer and surer way to deal with it, but it is your fight, over your town, it is your call, which was all I was saying.

All accusations of being an ass aside, I am beginning to think which ever of the brothers disintegrated the dragon needs to die. 

Here is my reasoning, in a regular game you can bet your pants the game master, unless he was sadistic, would not stick the PC with the recuring Dragon Ghost that was seeking revenge on his murderers, however, this would be Dragonknyte who would have to come up with the reason for the return of the Dragon and if I was in his shoes I would certainly make it something we would not want to die, i.e. the death of one of the brothers.

On the otherhand we may get off cheaper this way, as Ashalla can cast True Ressurection for only 25,000 gps, which is cheaper than the 60,000gp hoard.


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## nameless (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm just waiting for Fieari to decide what's going on here before I post again IC. If the dragon wanted to terrorize and kill a bunch of commoners, he can still only kill one a round, since he can only move and make one attack. If he killed even one before dropping into the ground, then that is enough time to Greater Teleport next to him and do the touch attack (I am invisible, as well, so he won't be able to see it coming, and will have a 50% miss chance even if he tries to attack me). If he doesn't want to kill the commoners, then he's definitely vulnerable when he breathes on the soldiers.


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## Fieari (Mar 30, 2004)

I'm almost positive the dragon is being played correctly... yes, it can only just barely get under ground, and can't see while there, but it can be there.  And while you could have teleported right next to it, you made your decision not to.

But yeah, the means for permanently destroying a ghost are pretty well laid out, and you have the means to figure out how to do it as well.

The biggest problem is that its playing guerilla tactics.  You don't know where it's going to pop up.  Otherwise it'd be extra-dead already.


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## Wrahn (Mar 30, 2004)

nameless said:
			
		

> I'm just waiting for Fieari to decide what's going on here before I post again IC. If the dragon wanted to terrorize and kill a bunch of commoners, he can still only kill one a round, since he can only move and make one attack. If he killed even one before dropping into the ground, then that is enough time to Greater Teleport next to him and do the touch attack (I am invisible, as well, so he won't be able to see it coming, and will have a 50% miss chance even if he tries to attack me). If he doesn't want to kill the commoners, then he's definitely vulnerable when he breathes on the soldiers.




Maybe I am missing something, but how are you Teleporting (a standard action) and attacking (a standard action) in the same round?


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## nameless (Mar 30, 2004)

If he runs away as planned, then I get an AoO, and he doesn't know that I'm there due to the invisibility.


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## Wrahn (Mar 30, 2004)

It works for me, he will know you are there (due to blindsense) but he really won't know where you are.


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## Carnifex (Mar 30, 2004)

@Tyraeus - I didn't think he came across as being an ass, rather that he was deferring the decision as to what to do over to you. Being polite, if anything.

@Wrahn - we don't know whether Dragonknyte actually had a hand in this return as a ghost thing. My guess is we have a DM who a) is evil    and b) didn't want to just turf one of the players out of the game straight off when the poor sod had some bad luck in being buff/scry/teleport assassinated. Thus it's probably Fieari who has set the perameters on why the ghost has come back. From what I remember of my draconomicon (which sadly I don't have here at the mo) it's usually the hoard that is the reason behind a dragon becoming a ghost. Before we start killing of our own side, let's deal with the current situation so we don't have to worry about the ghost for a few days, then sit down and do the following:

1)Divinations to scry on enemies, divine their plans and forces, etc, and of course to find out what's up with the ghost dragon.

2) If we get a confirmed reason for the dragon's ghost state, we put plans into action to try and deal with it.

3) At the same time, get our forces together and organised. Start scouting and counterattacking once we've got better intelligence as to where the enemy settlements are and who is where.

The other idea is to try and trap the ghost permanently *now*, if anyone has the appropriate spells. Anyone got Forcecage handy? With a coupla those memorised we could simply recast it every day and keep the ghost permanently locked up 



Of course me and my dwarves are not even in the game properly yet so you can all disregard this if you want   As an aside, actually, is there any spare room on the skyship for about 160 dwarves?     We're slow buggers, but we can burrow underground with our constructs; it's just we need to be able to actually get into position in the first place


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## Carnifex (Mar 30, 2004)

Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm almost positive the dragon is being played correctly... yes, it can only just barely get under ground, and can't see while there, but it can be there.  And while you could have teleported right next to it, you made your decision not to.
> 
> But yeah, the means for permanently destroying a ghost are pretty well laid out, and you have the means to figure out how to do it as well.
> 
> The biggest problem is that its playing guerilla tactics.  You don't know where it's going to pop up.  Otherwise it'd be extra-dead already.




Can we assume then that it *isn't* capable of coming out of the ground, attacking, and then going back under again in one round? If everyone in the place therefore gets ordered to move cautiously and be constantly ready, we should be able to get some attacks on it next time it tries to pop up and down again.

Also note that in the round it goes in the ground again, one mage can cast disintegrate to hit the area of ground the dragon is in, then the next mage, who can now see the dragon, hits it with a spell. That might work?


I'm just trying to come up with ideas of how to deal with this bugger.


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## nameless (Mar 30, 2004)

The skyship is pretty much full, unfortunately. I could hold a few units from each army, but only the elite ones. If you decide to leave your fortress, you'll have to hoof it.

The problem really lies with the enormous map. The armies are the size of a village (significantly less than 1000 members each), but with only a few armies spaced out over an area as big as the western united states. Mundane surveillance won't be able to find the armies... assuming I got my Lantern Archons the Prying Eyes spell to scout, they can each scout about 3 square miles in 2 hours. It would take more than 500 of them just to see if there is an army passing through one square. With the 50 that I have, that's about a one in ten chance of spotting anything, even if I guessed the right place. That would be the best case scenario for our side. So as you can see, only divination magic can possibly tell us where the enemy is. 

It'll take the Skylance a week to get to Lowgate, by which time all the decisive battles will probably have been fought amongst the teleporting battlelords. The other armies might take 2 or 3 weeks to get to the frontier. I'm not sure if the war will still even be going on in 2 or 3 weeks.

And leaving your fortress is obviously really risky. We can Forbiddance our homes to keep out teleporting assassins, but on the move there isn't anything to protect us like that, barring extremely high level magic. Everyone is too vulnerable outside of their fortresses, so the name of the game looks like it's going to be foiling instant-travel assassinations and divinations.


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## Tyreus (Mar 30, 2004)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> All accusations of being an ass aside, I am beginning to think which ever of the brothers disintegrated the dragon needs to die.




If you think you can pull it off, be my guest.  



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> On the otherhand we may get off cheaper this way, as Ashalla can cast True Ressurection for only 25,000 gps, which is cheaper than the 60,000gp hoard.




If I remember correctly, Fieari said there are no Ressurection spells. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm almost positive the dragon is being played correctly... yes, it can only just barely get under ground, and can't see while there, but it can be there. And while you could have teleported right next to it, you made your decision not to.




The dragon can't move, breath, and move, all in the same round unless it has quicken breath or adriot flyby attack. Also, if it cant see where it's going, how is it managing to pop up in the houses, let alone just the ones with people in them?


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## Wrahn (Mar 30, 2004)

Tyreus said:
			
		

> If you think you can pull it off, be my guest.




Kind of hoping he would be willing, it would not be as effective if there wasn't some dramatic plan where we fool the audience into believing he was dead. 



			
				Tyreus said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly, Fieari said there are no Ressurection spells.




No ressurections, but you can apparently come back undead?  Hmmm.... seems unbalanced, but I suppose understandable.

Carnifex,

No for the most part I agree it is Fieari's suggest as he has stated that he owns the Draconomicon (as the only non-core book he owns).  I wasn't proposing it as a course of action (just yet), just thinking out loud.  In the IC thread I have already used the mirror to try and get an answer to how the dragon can be put to rest, no answer from Fieari.

(I am one of those terrible people at movies who always whispers to their date, "He did it." 3 minutes into the movie, worse I am usually correct.)

The Forcecage would be exceptionally expensive because it is 1500 gp to cast (beating out the 1500gp to memorize in 3.0).  I think Trap the Soul is our best bet, but it is also expensive (13,000gp gem, assuming 13HD)

Nameless,

I have my Wren's keeping an eye out as well, along with a few scouting the enemies land.  I am currently unsure whether we are actual going to see actual battles, unless we can find a good reason to do so.  Most of the battlelords of the armies could defeat the non-battlelord portion of their army in a straigth up combat.  Battlelords are mobile and very powerful.  I am beginning to get the impression that the guerilla tactics are going to be the name of the game.  Unfortunately that favors he bad guy as they don't care who gets hurt and we do.


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## nameless (Mar 31, 2004)

Is anyone thinking what I'm thinking after seeing the lore in the IC thread?

One of the artifacts can probably rid us of the dragon, but it might also be able to rid us of the Lich King. His life force is bound to an object, after all. Plus it's a giant antimagic field. That is a good thing and a bad thing, but we can use it to our advantage. The painful part is going to be that we can't use magic to find it (directly) or use magic to transport it. 

There's no ocean around here, locally anyways. And it's dark in the location the mirror shows us, meaning it's on the other side of the world somewhere.

It's a lot more work than giving back the gold, but then again, it might be the only feasible way of dirtnapping the Lich King. And if it's that powerful, who's to say it won't just nuke all the undead around, period?


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## WizWrm (Mar 31, 2004)

On finding it....

There's _commune_, _contact other plane_, _divination_, _discern location_ (depending on your interpretation), _vision_, and _legend lore_. Or, I could just send a thousand ravens across the ocean looking for it, since they aren't doing a great job so far in scouting the Evil territory.


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## Tyreus (Mar 31, 2004)

I don't have any of those, (except discern location, but I have to have seen the object before hand) but I do have limited wish, which might let me find out where it is.


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## Bibliophile (Mar 31, 2004)

Couldn't we just _scry_ the island more?  Or perhaps our new mirror (once we get that blasted command word) would be useful?  (alt- doesn't Wrahn have a mirror as well?)


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## nameless (Mar 31, 2004)

I should have the command word by now, Identify only takes 1 hour to cast and gives all relevant command words. It's funny that you mention the mirror, though, since we only know of the island due to Wrahn's mirror in the first place.


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## Wrahn (Mar 31, 2004)

Mirrors of Mental Prowess act as portals as well, in essence we don't need to find it to go there.  The question is, can we afford to do so?  I will at least propose we do a little bit more research in what we are getting ourselves in for, before we go.


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## nameless (Mar 31, 2004)

I'm just afraid of the antimagic. It might make scrying impossible, it will certainly make teleportation impossible, and it will likely make portals not work, either. And who says the artifacts are portable? If they aren't portable, they're pretty useless, though.

I have some wizards in my army with +9 Knowledge (Arcana) and Knowledge (Geography), and one with +12 in each. I could let them use the mirror all day, every day, trying to find out more about the artifacts, and still devote most of my (Axorius's) personal attention to the war. If it comes to a dungeon crawl to get the artifact, Axorius is willing and able. He's a tough cookie, and not much could stand up to him in an Antimagic Field, either.

Also, do any of the troops (pretty much all of Tyreus's army, plus Axorius) get xp for beating the Ghost Dragon?


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## Tyreus (Apr 1, 2004)

Or bonus CR?


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## Bibliophile (Apr 2, 2004)

Any idea when we (WizWrm and I) will get replies on our scouting attempts?


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## Fieari (Apr 2, 2004)

*slaps forehead*  If this game hadn't all it's awesomeness, I would bang my forehead into the desk for ever attempting such a monster... hehe

Just keep reminding me, guys!  Really, it's not bugging, it's making sure I still remember I need to do something about it!

EDIT: IC post updated.


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## Tyreus (Apr 2, 2004)

I asked this before and forgot to remind you, but did Zan find any magic items on the dragon the first time he died?


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## Fieari (Apr 2, 2004)

Forgive my occasional rule ignorance, my usual games never reached sufficient level.  Wouldn't disintegrate have taken care of that?  The dragon had some items, but I was under the impression that your spell would have destroyed said items... they weren't artifacts.


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## WizWrm (Apr 2, 2004)

Drawing attention to myself? Never. 

I'm thinking the pit might be the source of the cloud of smoke and ash. (oops, forgot to ask - are there huge columns of smoke coming out of it?) If so, it would be clearly to our benefit to put a stop to it. I'm looking at either asking Axorius to send an archon to grab the _decanters of endless water_ from the rest of my army (forgot to bring them...oops), or just using an _earthquake_. Unless they have some means of knowing exactly what's going on in every part of Evil territory simultaneously, it'll be a couple hours at least before they realize that I'm there, and by then I'll be long gone. I carefully avoided giving them my name, but eventually they'll figure from my description to scry for a marut, so at that point we'll probably have the large-scale conflict we've been hoping for.  Then I can break out the _rod of rulership_ I've been saving.

Here's the relevant quote. I had thought the creature's equipment would be destroyed too, but I guess they must have changed it with 3.5.



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Disintegrate
> Transmutation
> Level: Destruction 7, Sor/Wiz 6
> Components: V, S, M/DF
> ...


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## Fieari (Apr 3, 2004)

Ouch!  YOu've picked up quite a haul then.

I should not be rewarding a teleport raid this way... but, dang.  Gotta be realistic here.  In the future, safegaurds had BETTER be taken so that you don't get these drastic benefits from little conflicts...

The FireKing was wearing:

Ring of Major Elemental Resistance(Cold) -- worth 28,000gp
Ring of Protection+5 -- worth 50,000gp
Amulet of Natural Armor+5 -- worth 50,000gp
Bracers of Armor+8  -- worth 64,000gp
Tail Ring of Dex+4  -- worth 16,000gp
(As belt of Dex)
Heartstone of Resistance+5  -- worth 25,000gp
(As Cloak of Resistance)

All for naught due to a single failed save... man.


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## nameless (Apr 3, 2004)

How do you guys wants to divvy that up? (if we divvy at all) Any of that stuff besides the Ring of Elemental resistance would work for Axorius. And he's probably the only one on our side who has a tail (or I would assume he does).

If I had my pick, I'd take the Heartstone, and Tail Ring, and the Bracers.


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## Tyreus (Apr 4, 2004)

Fieari in the ic thread said:
			
		

> Isten's scry fails, insufficient scry roll.




In 3.5, there is no scry skill.



			
				nameless said:
			
		

> How do you guys wants to divvy that up? (if we divvy at all) Any of that stuff besides the Ring of Elemental resistance would work for Axorius. And he's probably the only one on our side who has a tail (or I would assume he does).
> 
> If I had my pick, I'd take the Heartstone, and Tail Ring, and the Bracers.




I don't have a problem dividing it up since there is nothing there I'm really interested in. The problem is I don't like getting a good haul like that and then giving it away, but I dislike the idea of charging you for it even more. It just feels so wrong getting good stuff, then not using it.... How about I take the amulet and rings, while you take the things you said you wanted.


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## nameless (Apr 5, 2004)

No shame in saying what you want for your army, Tyreus. If you have a tank of some sort in the works, it might be smart to give him the rings and the amulet. It seems that Dan and Zan aren't really optimized for actually getting into fights, so the AC and resistances won't do them that much good.

Despite appearances, Axorius is really a melee machine more than a spellcaster. For him, the AC bonuses take him from hard to hit to natural 20 range. 5 attacks on a charge is pretty devestating. *grin*


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## Tyreus (Apr 10, 2004)

I figure for 30,000 gp I can get 2400 cubic feet of my town covered by forbidence. I'll have the spell extend from the center of town out, without covering the cavern. Dan and Zan will have a tower inside the cavern, with a permanent illusion of them sleeping, and riddle it with alarm spells. My troops will keep a watch day and night, with 50 on lookout from the mountain, 100 scouting the wall, and 100 scouting over the town and surrounding area.


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## Bibliophile (Apr 11, 2004)

Tyreus said:
			
		

> I figure for 30,000 gp I can get 2400 cubic feet of my town covered by forbidence. I'll have the spell extend from the center of town out, without covering the cavern. Dan and Zan will have a tower inside the cavern, with a permanent illusion of them sleeping, and riddle it with alarm spells. My troops will keep a watch day and night, with 50 on lookout from the mountain, 100 scouting the wall, and 100 scouting over the town and surrounding area.




You should be able to get a LOT more than 2400 cubic feet covered by forbiddance with 30,000gp.

It's 750gp/60ft cube (60x60x60 ft = 216,000 cubic feet)

30,000/750=40

40*216,000 = 8,640,000 cubic feet, or, roughly, a cube 205ft on a side.


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