# Laptop DM - What do I need?



## Ostler (Jan 20, 2004)

So I'm going to be restarting my high level campaign soon.  (Players keep pestering me.)  Given the amount of information I will need to keep track of I'm thinking about becoming a Laptop DM.  

I have a AMD K6/2 500Mhz laptop that is otherwise unused so I figured I could devote it to gaming.

What software, PDFs, etc. should I get to help me run my game efficiently?

Thanks,


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## mafisto (Jan 20, 2004)

*DM Genie*



			
				Ostler said:
			
		

> So I'm going to be restarting my high level campaign soon.  (Players keep pestering me.)  Given the amount of information I will need to keep track of I'm thinking about becoming a Laptop DM.
> 
> I have a AMD K6/2 500Mhz laptop that is otherwise unused so I figured I could devote it to gaming.
> 
> ...




I've had great success using DM Genie (http://www.dmgenie.com) for my modified 3.5 campaign.  I don't use it for running combat, but it really is an unparalled way to keep track of just about everything.  Functionally it encompasses everything from 3.5 (skills, spells, feats, monsters, etc.), and the developer (Janik from Mad Genious) is actively developing the product.  I rarely have to use the manuals because the information in the program is very extensive and complete -- and it really cuts down on rules lawyer activity.

Finally, the campaing managment tools have been a godsend.  It can access maps, store HTML, create nested adventures and use RTF markup.

I know I sound like a raving fan, but try it out.  Download the demo and use the tutorials; because of the sheer amount of functional components, there is a learning curve.  The forums on the site are pretty well attended too, so ask questions there if you need more info than you can get from the site itself.


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## Luke (Jan 21, 2004)

RolePlayingMaster does much as above, with notable extensions like:

Proper understanding of how stacking rules work, to give you correct calculations.
Extensive wordprocessing capabilities for the highest quality in campaign and adventure building results.
Very strong, configurable generator capabilites, for everything from fantasy names, to tavern descriptions to fully generated NPCs (complete with sensible equipment lists, spell lists, feats etc)
Designed from the ground up to support open home rule, campaign and even genre extensions (like science fiction) - with an active fan community producing and sharing such material.
Full support for game preparation (preparing printouts), or for in-game combat complete with everything from sounds and background music, to options for quick combat or detailed examination of all stats and options.


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## alaric187 (Jan 21, 2004)

Luke said:
			
		

> RolePlayingMaster does much as above, with notable extensions like:
> 
> Proper understanding of how stacking rules work, to give you correct calculations.
> Extensive wordprocessing capabilities for the highest quality in campaign and adventure building results.
> ...




[PIMP]  Yeah, I use RPM to run my games and it's awesome.  Luke is on top of things, so if you need something that it doesn't have, it's a safe bet that it will be in there next version.  Plus, Everyone Else can be loaded into it, giving you stats for anyone you may need in your game on the fly.[/PIMP]

Also, Fractal Mapper is awesome.  It's like CC2, except about 20% of the cost and much easier to use.  Good mapping times.


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## evildmguy (Jan 22, 2004)

Greetings!

I have the following programs to help with my sessions:

Microsoft Word - for notes

Microsoft Excel - for calculations of various things, such as inflation or different prices in different towns, other calculations sheets

CC Pro - for mapping

Overseer3D - to covert maps to 3D

Fractal Terrains - to create the world(s)

Weather Master - to handle weather and take some notes.  

d20 Combat Manager - free download from ENWorld.  Tracks and runs combat.  Stopped me, as the DM, from rolling anything but speeded up combat a lot!

BLAZONS! - for heraldry.  However, I had issues where the program didn't work but I got no response to any of my emails.    (CC Pro can do heraldry, however BLAZONS! gives the wording of it, which is what I liked.)

That's all I can think of that I use at the moment.  Does anyone use anything else?  Can we use this as a place to name ALL programs used at the table?  I would like to see what else is out there!   

Hope this helped!  Thanks!

edg


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## Chaz (Jan 22, 2004)

I agree fractal mapper is a program you have to have.
Also great is TableSmith. You will be surprised just how many things this program can do for you. Give it a try.

Peace


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## DMFTodd (Jan 22, 2004)

> What software, PDFs, etc. should I get to help me run my game efficiently



Things that can help you run the game more smoothly:

Ability to lookup rules quickly: An HTML version of the SRD is one possibility. That's a little hard to add info to. Programs like DM's Familiar (mine), DM Genine, and RPM do it as well. The ability to search this info (what are all the 3rd level wizard spells I have in the computer) and the ability to cross-reference are nice (example: DM's Familiar let's you enter spells to a creature. You can double-click the spell to pull it up for more info. The others probably do this as well.
   The ability to import/export information from this is needed if you use rulebooks beyond the SRD.

Combat Management: Let the computer manage initiative and who's turn it is. Ideally it should also track durations of spells and such to tell you when it's done. If you'll let the computer roll dice for you, you're combats will go much faster. Doing a claw/claw/bite/tail slap/wing slap with one click of a button is a good thing. 
   Ideally, the combat manager should handle all the buffs & nerfs that are going on. Especiall in a high level campaign. DM's Familiar, DM Genie, RPM, etc. do these things. It makes the game run much faster. 

Notes: Some way to organize your notes. Word can do it. Again though the search and cross-reference abilities are the time savers: Write an adventure, be able to drag & drop creatures to it, be able to drag & Drop from the adventure to the combat board, etc. DMF, DM Genie, RPM can do things like this. 


Those are the things I find, in game, can really make things run smoother. All the programs have free demos. Take a look and see what you like.


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## evildmguy (Jan 22, 2004)

DMFTodd said:
			
		

> Things that can help you run the game more smoothly:
> 
> Ability to lookup rules quickly: An HTML version of the SRD is one possibility. That's a little hard to add info to. Programs like DM's Familiar (mine), DM Genine, and RPM do it as well. The ability to search this info (what are all the 3rd level wizard spells I have in the computer) and the ability to cross-reference are nice (example: DM's Familiar let's you enter spells to a creature. You can double-click the spell to pull it up for more info. The others probably do this as well.
> The ability to import/export information from this is needed if you use rulebooks beyond the SRD.
> ...




Hmmm.  I appreciate what you are saying but I disagree with it in a few areas.  

First of all, I don't think rules should be looked up at the table.  Unless the group is a made of new players and a new GM, the rules should be used at a minimum AT THE TABLE.  What should happen is the GM should note any discrepancies, look them up after the session but before the next, and briefly describe what the GM learned and will be using the next time around.  

Second, the same for notes.  I am not talking about helpers for combat or the adventure, only plain and simple notes.  Later, the GM should review his notes, again preferably before the next session, and if he wants to do any cross referencing or create several documents with needed information, that is great!  It will help him with running the adventure.  

"That's just my opinion, though.  I could be wrong."

edg


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## evildmguy (Jan 22, 2004)

DMFTodd said:
			
		

> Things that can help you run the game more smoothly:
> 
> Ability to lookup rules quickly: An HTML version of the SRD is one possibility. That's a little hard to add info to. Programs like DM's Familiar (mine), DM Genine, and RPM do it as well. The ability to search this info (what are all the 3rd level wizard spells I have in the computer) and the ability to cross-reference are nice (example: DM's Familiar let's you enter spells to a creature. You can double-click the spell to pull it up for more info. The others probably do this as well.
> The ability to import/export information from this is needed if you use rulebooks beyond the SRD.
> ...




Hmmm.  I appreciate what you are saying but I disagree with it in a few areas.  

First of all, I don't think rules should be looked up at the table.  Unless the group is a made of new players and a new GM, the rules should be used at a minimum AT THE TABLE.  What should happen is the GM should note any discrepancies, look them up after the session but before the next, and briefly describe what the GM learned and will be using the next time around.  

Second, the same for notes.  I am not talking about helpers for combat or the adventure, only plain and simple notes.  Later, the GM should review his notes, again preferably before the next session, and if he wants to do any cross referencing or create several documents with needed information, that is great!  It will help him with running the adventure.  

"That's just my opinion, though.  I could be wrong."

edg


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## WingOver (Jan 23, 2004)

evildmguy said:
			
		

> First of all, I don't think rules should be looked up at the table.  Unless the group is a made of new players and a new GM, the rules should be used at a minimum AT THE TABLE.
> 
> Second, the same for notes.  I am not talking about helpers for combat or the adventure, only plain and simple notes.  Later, the GM should review his notes, again preferably before the next session, and if he wants to do any cross referencing or create several documents with needed information, that is great!  It will help him with running the adventure.
> 
> edg




My group looks up rules all the time, and we've been playing consistently since 3rd edition was released.  We can't remember every little modifier, spell or combat rule.  Maybe we're just a little slow on the uptake.   

As for notes, I like using MS Word on the notebook, but sometimes just fall back to printed pages for convenience.


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## evildmguy (Jan 23, 2004)

WingOver said:
			
		

> My group looks up rules all the time, and we've been playing consistently since 3rd edition was released.  We can't remember every little modifier, spell or combat rule.  Maybe we're just a little slow on the uptake.
> 
> As for notes, I like using MS Word on the notebook, but sometimes just fall back to printed pages for convenience.




I am not trying to talk down to any group.  Perhaps I needed a few more "imo" spread around my post.

My point was merely that I prefer the story elements, not the wargaming elements.  Therefore, I would rather the GM fake the numbers while we are at the table to keep things moving and perhaps more cinematic, rather than spend any amount of time flipping through the books.  Sure, it happens when everyone is new to the game, as I am finding out, but I don't feel the need to do that while playing.  I want to tell my story!

That's me, though.  I could be wrong.

edg


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## mafisto (Jan 23, 2004)

evildmguy said:
			
		

> I am not trying to talk down to any group.  Perhaps I needed a few more "imo" spread around my post.
> 
> My point was merely that I prefer the story elements, not the wargaming elements.  Therefore, I would rather the GM fake the numbers while we are at the table to keep things moving and perhaps more cinematic, rather than spend any amount of time flipping through the books.  Sure, it happens when everyone is new to the game, as I am finding out, but I don't feel the need to do that while playing.  I want to tell my story!
> 
> ...




Meh.  You're not wrong, it's just a matter of preference.  My players take combat and rules very seriously, and they actually *like* seeing me look things up when there's even a hint of discord.  And, as I said before, there's no longer any 'flipping through books'.  It's right there in front of me with a few mouse clicks.

I have to say, the above paragraph not withstanding, that book scanning can be very disruptive.  I personally do not like it -- but I guess it's more about what the majority of players like.


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## WingOver (Jan 23, 2004)

evildmguy said:
			
		

> I am not trying to talk down to any group.  Perhaps I needed a few more "imo" spread around my post.
> 
> edg




Hey it's cool!  No offense taken.  We used to fudge more in 1st and 2nd edition when the rules were "looser".  3rd edition rules are pretty consistent and well defined and our group likes to play by them.  It's not unusual for someone to bring up a +1 modifier here or there from some obscure rule.


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## Luke (Jan 24, 2004)

*Rules lookup*



			
				evildmguy said:
			
		

> First of all, I don't think rules should be looked up at the table.  Unless the group is a made of new players and a new GM, the rules should be used at a minimum AT THE TABLE.




I have a pretty different take on that. I sit at the table with my laptop running RolePlayingMaster, and I do very accurate play with my character. I resolve issues very quickly, and whilst others struggle a little too much with the numbers, I get instant results, and get to focus more on actual roleplaying.

Some examples:

*3 mouse clicks and I'm looking at the full breakdown of my attempt to do a climbing check.*
Easy? There's a plus number to my Climb on my statblock, and I just add that to my d20 roll? Not quite.

My ranks bonus, Str bonus (which automatically changed due to a Bull's Strength just cast on me), armor check and possible use of a climber's kit are all laid out before me in a list.

Just below that are the possible DC modifiers for bracing opposite walls, bracing perpendicular walls, and whether or not its slippery. A mouse click can activate anything that applies.

Also I have the standard dropdown box showing the various DC options for skill checks. Of the 8 options that apply to climb, I choose "uneven surface with narrow handholds", which tells me its a DC 20.

So 3 mouse clicks, and a possibly a couple more to tailor to the situation, and I have the outcome - completely and accurately described by the rules. If I felt the need, then I could have pressed the "Desc" tab to get the full handbook description.






Now, climb is pretty common, but I'll bet that very few people know the DC for "Overhang or ceiling with handholds but no footholds" - without a lookup of some kind. 

* Much the same situation, with my character doing a will save. *
If you noticed the conditions from the previous example (Cat's Grace, Bull's Strength, Bless and Magic Vestment), I get much the same screen, except the will base, wis mod, possible elf racial bonus vs enchantment and the morale bonus for a bless spell are all mentioned. Too easy, and nothing forgotten.

This situation was pretty taken from our gaming session last week. We expected big trouble behind a certain big double door, and the party cleric and wizard did much work on us with spells like magic vestment, cat's grace, bulls strength, bless, invisibility etc.
A few mouse clicks and I had all these spells entered as conditions against my character. All the adjustments for Str, Dex, attacks, damage, saves AC (incl. consideration of max dex wearing heavy armor) etc all just popped out automatically - with any possible stacking rules for bonuses correctly applied.
I can tell you that we got pretty bogged down with the changes to the other characters where a program like RolePlayingMaster was not used.

*Making an attack. 3 mouse clicks and I have the full breakdown of my attempt to make an attack. Note that I did elsewhere indicate (quickly and easily) my preferences for my expertise, power attack feat options.*




Its all there, and its all correct. If I pick up a dagger in my other hand it'll still be correct, with the possibility of a 2 weapon fighting feat being considered as well.

Ordinarily I just get the result of what AC I would hit, and how much damage I would cause if I do (possibilities of criticals, sneak damage etc all taken into account). I this case I pictured a "full combat" example as might be controlled by the DM, where targeting is used and the opponents AC breakdown is also given.

I guess that this is actually well beyond rules lookup, since its actually all done for you without even a lookup. Still there are plenty of cases when you *need to lookup*.
What about the specific details on a particular spell in your spell list of 20 different spells???
How about the poor old DM trying to play an NPC encounter correctly, where he is effecttively trying to correctly manage the different feats, classes, racial traits, spells and special abilities of a group where every member has the complexity of a full player character???

So, in such cases you want to be able to simply double click on any item in a list of feats, spells, special abilities etc, and get all the lookup details.

If you're a DM, a laptop can give you effectively, at worst, the best DM's screen you can have!


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## evildmguy (Jan 24, 2004)

Greetings!

There have been some very good responses here!  

I think, going back to the OP, the important question is what does your group like?  What does your group want out of gaming?  

Some people like the wargaming and the minute details.  The players like being able to use the rules to get all of the advantages they can.  While these are game terms, they can be translated into game mechanics.  (Surprise, taking aim, getting an advantage in some way.)  If this the type of game you play, then I agree getting RPM, DMF, hyperlinked SRD, etc. is exactly what you want.  

I personally don't like all of those details.  Combat is the place, imo, where DND (d20) really slows down.  I found that after having a thrilling combat, that took half of the gaming time, I forgot why it was important and why it happened!  I did get caught up in the excitement of the fight, don't get me wrong, but the fight itself is usually only one part of the story.  For me, it isn't the story itself.

[btw, I am not implying that the above programs can't be scaled down to the level I talk about.  I don't have any experience using them, so I can't comment as to whether they can do that or not.]  

Therefore, I used, and I couldn't find it on ENWorld anymore, Alessio Pauri's Combat Manager.  It was a very simple, straight forward program that tracked combat, spells, and options.  I would say it speeded up my d20 combat by 33%+!  In fact, combat was going so fast, my players were complaining they didn't have time to think about what they wanted to do!  That, to me, was nice because we went from being able to do at most one combat per session to being able to do three or four and still have a lot of time to role play.  That was my goal.  (This program, in showing me the to hit and damage at the same time, also allowed me to add more description into combat, by knowing these things all at once.  Again, something that I wanted to do.)  

My other goal was to add more detail, but to have it in the background.  Instead of needing to spend hours creating weather systems, using WM I was able to let that create the weather and I merely added it into my description.  It allowed me to be more consistent and add more important details in without letting those details take up more time than they should.  That's also where BLAZONS! and the other programs came in as well.  

Therefore, all of the programs I listed helped me reach my goals, as I stated above.  As I said, it wasn't important to me to know all of the modifiers in any particular situation.  I am lucky in that my players are willing to trust my judgement calls for the modifiers.  If it is in question, I look it up after the game, see how close I was, tell everyone and next time we discuss, briefly before the game, what everyone wants to do.  

Hopefully, my advice, as well as the good advice of others, can help the OP reach their goal as well!

Good discussion!  Thanks!

edg


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## Luke (Jan 24, 2004)

evildmguy said:
			
		

> Some people like the wargaming and the minute details.  The players like being able to use the rules to get all of the advantages they can.
> ...
> I personally don't like all of those details.  Combat is the place, imo, where DND (d20) really slows down.  I found that after having a thrilling combat, that took half of the gaming time, I forgot why it was important and why it happened!




As always, whatever the gaming style,  the most important thing is that the group enjoys it, and hopefully that its consistent.

In over 20 years of gaming, I've had a wide range of gaming style experiences.
At one end of the spectrum I've been in games that get really bogged down in the detail of game mechanics, and it takes forever to get through any kind of encounter.
At the other end of the spectrum, I've been involved in a game where the person taking a turn at DMing was not very strong on rules at all. It was interesting as an exercise in versimilitude and DMed storytelling - but it did go down very badly with the group who ultimately became quite bored, because it degenerated essentially into the DM "telling the story" since the player stats and dice rolls didn't actually count for much.

Now I'll grant you that 3rd edition improved vastly on 2nd edition - but with a double-edged sword. On the positive side, the rules are varied, comprehensive an well structured - to the point where the DM doesn't have to place too much personal interpretation on how to play and adjudicate - *very important*.
On the negative side, there is much, much greater complexity than there was in 2nd edition. *My personal view is that its quite difficult to correctly play characters (once spell effects and situations start changing stats and all the follow-on effects to AC, attacks and damage come in), and its *extremely* difficult for DMs to correctly play an entire encounter group (where NPCs and even monsters can carry the full complexity of player characters). Don't forget the stacking rules for all the changing modifiers!*

Please note that I personally develop RolePlayingMaster (so I'm biased), and that the issues above is the reason that I developed it.

My take is that RolePlayingMaster let a player put together a character, and play it correctly, almost without understanding the rules, and especially without having to manually do all the calculations.
This is even better for DMs, who can randomly (later applying manual edits), put entire encounters together - with race levels, class levels, templates added, and spell lists, feats and equipment all instantly generated. When that happens, the weapons and armor can be generated as magical, and *everything* just comes out right.

To my mind, that lets you play the game with the rules you got in the books you bought, and it still lets you play quickly, as if you were playing a scaled down rules light fashion.
If the program you use doesn't take all the right things into account, then its not actually a D&D/D20 game that you're playing - just something hopefully fairly close.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with that, but its nice to know that you can get something to let you play the actual game that you purchased, enjoying the richness and full flavour of 3rd edition - without paying the penalty for complexity. 

Lastly, my personal take is that there's nothing wrong with knowing the rules to get all the advantages. In real life, we focus with training and education to maximise our success - be it a professional career, or martial arts training. Why wouldn't the same outlook apply to a fantasy character? The main thing is to be fair and assist with those rules you're aware of being applied both ways. My gaming group often ends up rolling their eyes when I remind a DM that his monster isn't actually susceptible to the critical hit a player has just delivered


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## DMFTodd (Jan 25, 2004)

evildmguy said:
			
		

> Some people like the wargaming and the minute details.  If this the type of game you play, then I agree getting RPM, DMF, hyperlinked SRD, etc. is exactly what you want.



You've admitted you haven't used any of these programs but you know exactly who they benefit? Interesting. 

I understand what you mean about not looking up rules at the table. Bogging down the game with rules lookups is no fun. There are 3 solutions to this problem that I can think of:
1) The DM memorizes everything so no lookups are needed. I'm sure there's some people who can play that way.
2) The DM just makes it up as he goes. I'm sure there are some people who can play that way successfully.
3) The rule gets looked up. 

If you're a category (1) or a category (2) DM, then yes I agree, a laptop isn't gong to help you. If you're a category (3) DM, or partially a (3), then a laptop is a great aid. A laptop and a good program can let you look up things very quickly to minimize the distraction to the game. 



> I would say it speeded up my d20 combat by 33%+!



That's the important point. A good combat management program is going to make combat go much faster. That leaves more game time for whatever you want - whether it be storytelling, roleplaying or more combat. I think it can speed up combat more than the 33%. 



> This program, in showing me the to hit and damage at the same time, also allowed me to add more description into combat,



Another very good point. Each thing the laptop can do for you is one less thing the DM has to think about. Which means the DM can use that part of his brain to do other things. I found the same thing you did - with the laptop doing all the math for me, my brain was freed up to provide more narrative for the combat and to think more about the monsters tactics.



> btw, I am not implying that the above programs can't be scaled down to the level I talk about.



Actually, the 3 main combat managers (DMF, RPM, DM Genie) take different approaches. (Hoping I don't step on Luke or Janik's toes, but here goes):

Roleplaying Master, as Luke's screenshots show, tries to do everthing for you. It tries to do all of the math and handle all of the modifiers. 

My program, DM's Familiar, does not try to do everything. I try to handle the 20% of things that a DM spends 90% of his time doing during combat. If the PC is flanked, I leave it to the DM to add +2 to the attack rolls whereas in RPM, you check a box for "flanked" and it does the math for you. 

DM Genie comes in somewhere between the two but leans towards the RPM side of things rather than the DMF way. 

So, depending on your game style, you may find one or the other program more approriate. All of the programs have free demos. Take a look and decide what works best for you. 

The sure thing is that a laptop is a great aid at the game table. Find software that matches your style and you'll run faster, more organized, more interesting games.


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## Luke (Jan 26, 2004)

DMFTodd said:
			
		

> Actually, the 3 main combat managers (DMF, RPM, DM Genie) take different approaches. (Hoping I don't step on Luke or Janik's toes, but here goes):
> 
> Roleplaying Master, as Luke's screenshots show, tries to do everthing for you. It tries to do all of the math and handle all of the modifiers.




No problem Todd.

RolePlayingMaster actually does pretty much all you can hope for from a program. You can do more if you have a fully worked 3D world (like NeverWinter Nights, except you lose badly in other ways).
From the images above, there's obviously a very large database of feats, items, classes, abilities, conditions etc which can point the way fairly clearly to automating your work for you.

Nevertheless, RPM does absolutely everything that it can to avoid forcing a gaming style on you, at every possible opportunity.
Experience has shown that trying to play from manually entered statblock-type figures quickly becomes inaccurate once the current situation starts involving conditions, spell effects and other things (such as poison - which changes Str or dex, and all the things that subsequently depend on it - which is an awful lot).
It becomes a particular problem once you start to realize that the *type* of modifier is almost as important as its value, since stacking rules can mean that the true results are quite different from what you expect.

Given all that, its still up to the individual to decide how much automation they want. If you want, don't bother to enter in conditions and spell effects as they happen. You then get what the other combat managers typically give you (DMF, DMGenie?) which is a set of numbers per a static statblock. In that case, you try to juggle the effects in your head, hopefully keeping the stacking rules in mind as you go.
An interesting example of stacking rules is what you're supposed to do when you're wearing gauntlets of ogre power and somebody casts bull's strength on you. It actually takes a careful reading of the manufacturing prerequisites of the ogre power gauntlets before you can determine what *type* of bonus it gives your strength - which means that combining the two isn't nearly as good as what you would hope for. Its great to just have a program that has already considered all that, and just pops out the right numbers for you.
At the start of creating RPM, I considered that many people would accept a program that would manage things inaccurately for them, and just accept what it spat out, even if it was actually not very accurate. I *love* 3rd edition, and went the extra miles to actually make that accuracy a very viable option for those that want it.

I really don't think that ignoring this is a case of "the other 10% of the time". Any creature (be it a PC, NPC or monster), can easily undergo a bewildering set of stat changes from relatively simple and common game effects. This is about getting the basics right - as described by the rules.

I find that is actually quite inflammatory for many people. We (this community) love our 3rd edition fairly unconditionally, and many people understand and *love* the 3rd edition they read about in the rule books - but they really don't want to know about how inaccurately it gets played out around the table. My own gaming group includes a bunch of people who rate their intellects very highly. This includes the individual who scored the top high school marks in my state, warranting a congratulatory letter from our premier (read "governor" if you are American - and *no*, thats nothing like a Russian premier of old  ).
Yet, to a man (without a laptop), frequent mistakes are made (includes referenced super-brain).

Hey, bottom line:  Whatever works for you, and is good fun - works!!
Still, if you *can* manage a laptop, give some good D&D in-game software serious consideration. Actually play the game that you love reading about in the books!


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## DMFTodd (Jan 26, 2004)

Luke said:
			
		

> You then get what the other combat managers typically give you (DMF, DMGenie?) which is a set of numbers per a static statblock.



Actually, DM's Familiar handles buffs/nerfs just fine. It's not a static statblock. You are correct in that DMF doesn't bother with figuring out stacking as RPM does. I leave that to the DM.


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## Luke (Jan 26, 2004)

DMFTodd said:
			
		

> Actually, DM's Familiar handles buffs/nerfs just fine. It's not a static statblock. You are correct in that DMF doesn't bother with figuring out stacking as RPM does. I leave that to the DM.




I'm not sure what you mean about buffs/nerfs, but I would highly recommend putting a stacking calculator into DMF.
If you appear to take modifications into account, but don't actually do it correctly, then you run the risk of having players think that you're actually doing the correct job for them, which only turns out to be true part of the time. I think that DMGenie has the same problem. I understand that casting something like Bull's Strength multiple times in DMGenie just continues to stack up your Str higher and higher.

I realize that doing the right thing down to the level of stacking has serious issues for licensing legalities with Wizards of the Coast. You need to meet serious "open code" requirements that aren't easy - but I think its well worth it...

As before: If a bunch of people use you're program, and they're having fun, then thats the main consideration. You may just want to check, however, if they're actually aware of whats really up with the numbers that your program spits out. It may be that a significant number of your users have blind trust and misplaced faith (not necessarily how you manage it at all, but a general consideration to be aware of). 
For example, if you provide a set of attack and damage numbers closer to a statblock than a dynamic which incorporates current effects and conditions with stacking, then think about how useful a quick program determination of what AC you hit, and how much damage you cause actually is. If  your quick and useful output is actually based on partially followed rules, then you're actually making it harder for players than if you do nothing at all !
By that, I mean that if your final numbers are to mean anything at all, and you leave it to them to consider what the stacking rules were *meant* to do, then you're actually requiring them to not only know the full rules, but also to work out what your program considered - *and what it left out*, so they can somehow fill in and rework the gaps. It may be that they were better off, and would find it easier, to work it out from scratch.

I certainly don't want to appear derogatory ( especially if seen as a "rival" RPG developer). I'm just making suggestions that may "raise the bar" for RPG software and a better over-all support of our RPG community.


----------



## DMFTodd (Jan 26, 2004)

Luke said:
			
		

> I'm not sure what you mean about buffs/nerfs,



Buff: To increase or make better. "Bull's STR buff's my STR"
Nerf: To decrease or make worse. "Spider poison nerfed my Dex!"



> I would highly recommend putting a stacking calculator into DMF.



I would highly recommend that we don't presume to know what is best for each other.



> I certainly don't want to appear derogatory



Then you should probably stop insinuating that your competitors' products don't work.


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## mafisto (Jan 26, 2004)

Luke said:
			
		

> ... I think that DMGenie has the same problem. I understand that casting something like Bull's Strength multiple times in DMGenie just continues to stack up your Str higher and higher.
> ...



Not like I'm an official DMGenie spokesman or anything, but it doesn't blindly stack spell effects.  In the case of Bull's Strength, you can have the spell as a condition or not -- no stacking.

I can't speak for every effect, but the program does seem to stack intelligently to some degree.


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## Luke (Jan 27, 2004)

DMFTodd said:
			
		

> Buff: To increase or make better. "Bull's STR buff's my STR"
> Nerf: To decrease or make worse. "Spider poison nerfed my Dex!"
> 
> I would highly recommend that we don't presume to know what is best for each other.
> ...



Fair enough. It was about 3:00AM for me, and I could could certainly have been a bit more careful with some word choices.
I certainly don't mean they don't work. As I said, irrespective of of anything else, there must certainly be plenty of users getting great use out of DMF and others.
Just trying to point out difficulties with doing partial rules calculation, and that people can easily put blind trust into something where complexity is being managed for them, without realizing whats going on.
Just trying to suggest that we developers can raise the bar for supporting the D&D/D20 community, in ways that could work very well.

-------------



			
				mafisto said:
			
		

> Not like I'm an official DMGenie spokesman or anything, but it doesn't blindly stack spell effects.  In the case of Bull's Strength, you can have the spell as a condition or not -- no stacking.
> 
> I can't speak for every effect, but the program does seem to stack intelligently to some degree.



Okay. Somebody posted a "check out DMGenie" in an RPM fan forum, and this issue came up - along with a Bull's Strength example.
I felt compelled to check it out, and downloaded DMGenie to go through the example. Str seemed to just stack continually. I certainly wouldn't repeat something like that without checking it out myself, though I'm not very familiar with DMG and its quite possible that something could have been done. I couldn't see anywhere in the rules configuration where the *type* of a bonus was recorded along with its value. If thats the case, then its pretty well impossible to process stacking rules correctly.

-------------

I guess that 3rd edition rules mechanics are good enough and important enough to me to have put all the effort that I have into RPM. As Todd and I have discussed before, doing RPG software about passion for it, and not really about trying to make money.
i don't want to step on anyone's toes, and kudos to *anybody* producing anything that enhances the gaming life of us all!


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## noretoc (Jan 27, 2004)

Well, I have been using DMgenie at the table for a few weeks now, and like it alot.  It has many features which I always wanted to keep track of, but never had the time.  I love the time keeping feature, where you can keep track of the date, and time.  It generate weather for you, and moon phases, and really give you the feeling of continuity.  But to be fair, I just downloaded RPM and installed it to try it our and it errored on me.  Wouldn't run.  Now I am sure that many other people have it running fine, so it must be a problem with my install or comp setup, but it is a bit of a neg hit, when the other software runs fine and one dosen't right off the bat.  I fired an email to Luke, and hope that I can get it figured out to give it a try.  Unless RPM is really top notch though, it will be hard to beat out DMGenie.


----------



## Malchior (Jan 28, 2004)

edit


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## Malchior (Jan 28, 2004)

edit


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## Malchior (Jan 28, 2004)

Luke keeps telling us how wonderful RPM is, and the RPM website seems to suggest the same, but there is one problem... I can't download it!

I'm running a 2.6GHz/256MB PC on a cable modem (in Canada) and whenever I try to download it from the RPM site I average transfer speeds in the hundreds of _bytes_ or low KBs. It suggests it will take 5 hours, and keeps timing out after DLing the first few hundred KB! I've tried numerous times, on multiple computers, always with the same problem.

Is anyone else experiencing this difficulty now, or is it just me (and the three computers I tried it on). Someone on the RPM Yahoo group suggested it might because of a virus on the weekend affecting internet traffic, but I don't buy that. I have no trouble DLing large files from other sites (DLed the OpenOffice suite @ 65MB).

I emailed Luke to ask if there was a mirror site to DL his prog, or if there would be, and he said no. Searches of Google turn up only his site as a host. Is there a problem with the Cyberstreet servers?

Is it possible to find this program (in it's latest release) anywhere else? Otherwise, I will have to go with a competing program simply because I can't get the one that is supposed to be the "best".


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## Luke (Jan 28, 2004)

Malchior said:
			
		

> I emailed Luke to ask if there was a mirror site to DL his prog, or if there would be, and he said no. Searches of Google turn up only his site as a host. Is there a problem with the Cyberstreet servers?




I was dead slow for me too yesterday. There were numerous timeouts on the ENWorld message boards and even cyberstreet itself.

Viruses may have been clogging up pipes to certain parts of the world, without others being aware.

Seems to be okay now...


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## Malchior (Jan 28, 2004)

Sorry about the triple-post everyone. Because of the problems bbeing experienced by the board it seemed like nothing was being sent. Then I saw the message about the boards being shut down for a while because of the virus.

It seems that the good folks at ENworld ere able to clear up not only the message boards, but the other parts of the site as well, and I was finally able to download RPM. I was getting frustrated, because it sounds so good, but I couldn't try it. Now I have it, I'll put it through it's paces for my demanding campaign. 

IMHO, however, I think what happened to the boards annd the site brings up an important consideration. It might be useful for anyone offering a program for download to have it mirrored at another site (if possible) for just such an occasion.

NEway, let's see how this baby handles.


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## tm80401 (Jan 29, 2004)

Are there any DM aid programs that run on Linux?  Or on a Mac?


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## DMFTodd (Jan 29, 2004)

tm80401 said:
			
		

> Are there any DM aid programs that run on Linux?  Or on a Mac?



CrystalBall is the only one for the Mac I know of. Not sure what it does.

PCGen, a character generator, is Java so it runs on anything.


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## Slipshod (Jan 31, 2004)

*How is it treating you?*



			
				Malchior said:
			
		

> NEway, let's see how this baby handles.




How has it been treating you?   I can't get it to stay running for any length of time before it stops responding to mouse input.  It's bad enough that in the 3 days I've had it I haven't been able to successfully input my gaming group's 6 second-level characters yet.  So far I've only gotten the 3 in, and that's been a royal pain in the ass.

I'm seriously thinking about heading back to DM Genie, it might not have all the wiz-bang features; but at least it works.  At this point if I tried to run a game using RPM the group would string me up.


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## noretoc (Feb 1, 2004)

Slipshod said:
			
		

> How has it been treating you? I can't get it to stay running for any length of time before it stops responding to mouse input. It's bad enough that in the 3 days I've had it I haven't been able to successfully input my gaming group's 6 second-level characters yet. So far I've only gotten the 3 in, and that's been a royal pain in the ass.
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about heading back to DM Genie, it might not have all the wiz-bang features; but at least it works. At this point if I tried to run a game using RPM the group would string me up.



Your doing better than me.  I installed and it woudn't run  Got an error.  Luke says that happens when you update over an old one.  to read the notes on his website.  Well, funny thing was I didn't update, but downloaded the full version on a fresh machine.  Then I searched his website for these "notes" and couldn't find anything.  Infact the website is very confusing.  Then he emailed me back to say basically he didn;t know what was wrong (Sorry, I thoguht you wrote the thing and might have an idea how it worked) and asked me if I was sure I downloaded the right thing.  Well, i replied that I can tell the difference between an update and a full version and he hasn't gotten back to me.  Back to DM genie for me, and I recommend everyone to stay away from RPM.  Not only does it have a ton of problems, but apparently the guy who wrote it dosen't know how it works.

Sorry for the rant.


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## Luke (Feb 2, 2004)

noretoc said:
			
		

> Luke says that happens when you update over an old one.  to read the notes on his website.  Well, funny thing was I didn't update, but downloaded the full version on a fresh machine.  Then I searched his website for these "notes" and couldn't find anything.  Infact the website is very confusing.  Then he emailed me back to say basically he didn;t know what was wrong (Sorry, I thoguht you wrote the thing and might have an idea how it worked) and asked me if I was sure I downloaded the right thing.  Well, i replied that I can tell the difference between an update and a full version and he hasn't gotten back to me.
> ...
> apparently the guy who wrote it dosen't know how it works.
> 
> Sorry for the rant.




I know exactly how it works, and I haven't made any further replies to your last e-mail, because I'm currently unable to make any further suggestions, based on what you've told me.

The notes that you can't find are within 5 lines of where you downloaded the full install, and on the same line as where one gets the "update only".
They read:


> [Update Download] : (click to download).This is a much smaller download. *Use only if you already have v4.2.0 or greater installed. *




Your reported error is one where you have a problem starting up, and the message is that a function in a DLL (which I create) cannot be found.

Technically, I can tell you that I create that DLL, and I use the DLL. Hence the only way to get a mismatch as you reported is to apply an "update only" which gets the latest executable, but ends up trying to use a very different, old version of the troublesome DLL.

Hence, my pointing you to the notes above. I realize that you claimed to have done the full install, and never applied the update smaller update. For that reason, I double and triple checked that nothing "old" had somehow crept into the full install. I tested by downloadeding the full install, from the website, onto different computers that had never had RPM installed before. It all worked.

Not only that, but it seems to have worked for very many hundreds of people who have recently downloaded. Yes there were a handful that reported a similar problem, and it seems that all of them, hadn't noticed the instruction at the download area, regarding versions older than v4.2.0. To my knowledge, everyone, except for you, has fixed the problem by following the instructions for a full download.

Given your difficulty in finding notes exactly at the place that you made the download, and that you've reorted an error that seems impossible given your claims about not applying an update, I'm currently stuck as to how to progress this issue. Seems like its just you. I don't wish to denigrate you (as you denigrated RPM and my understanding of my own program), but when you make a public comment creating the impression that you did, I think that it needs to be explained a bit better, publicly.

Apologies to anyone reading for the public uselessness of this. I felt that Noretoc's aggressive and denigrating post required some explanation.
I won't respond further to this issue publicly.


----------



## Slipshod (Feb 2, 2004)

noretoc said:
			
		

> Your doing better than me.  I installed and it woudn't run  Got an error.
> 
> Sorry for the rant.




   Try downloading the full install again.  I've downloaded and installed it on two different computers in the last week, and never had a problem getting it to start.  Maybe there was a problem with the installer when you downloaded it, and there is a newer one that resolves it; or maybe there was an issue with the download itself?

   Luke did finally figure out the problem I was having, and gave me a good workaround to use until the next update comes out.  It's stable enough now that I can give it a whirl with the gaming group on Wednesday and not have to worry about about rope and torches.

   The program is really nice when it works.  It works more with the style of gaming that I want (this related to the debate between Todd and Luke), which is the ability to automate as much as I like.  I think with some QA effort to further stabilize it, it will be awesome.  Luke seems to be as response as he can be (considering the time-zone difference and having a full-time job), and wants to resolve bugs.  It's just a matter of being able to get him an exact description of the problem and a way to reproduce it.

    I was finally able to run through a mock-combat with the PCs in my group last night, and while there's still a few "getting used to the interface" issues for myself, the combat went off smoothly and was easier to manage that my first combat in Dm Genie.  I particularly like how it manages combat as a work-flow, prompting you for damage if (and only if) you hit the target, as well as prompting for critical threat rolls and cleave actions as appropriate.  My group is new to v3.5 D&D (we've been playing Shadowrun for the past 4 years), and having a gentle "guiding hand" with the rules is helping both me and the players get adjusted to the ruleset.

   The next version (which will include the fix for the problem I hit) should be entirely useable.


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## noretoc (Feb 2, 2004)

Slipshod said:
			
		

> Try downloading the full install again. I've downloaded and installed it on two different computers in the last week, and never had a problem getting it to start. Maybe there was a problem with the installer when you downloaded it, and there is a newer one that resolves it; or maybe there was an issue with the download itself?
> 
> Luke did finally figure out the problem I was having, and gave me a good workaround to use until the next update comes out. It's stable enough now that I can give it a whirl with the gaming group on Wednesday and not have to worry about about rope and torches.
> 
> ...



I would have loved to have tried whatever might have worked, but now I am not so inclined.  If he had said what he did in the above post to me in email, (in a nicer way of course) I might have thought there would be a way around it.  Instead I got a response which seemed to be like he was questioning my ability to read simple instructions.  Then when I told him I downloaded the correct version his response was "are you sure you didn't unzip anything" (meaning the update).  Then I asked him what the fix would be if I had indeed made a mistake, and never heard back.  While there might be a fix now I am not intrested.  If he wants to sell a product, than he shouldn't treat his customers like fools.  Instead of giving me the benefit of the doubt and possibly trying to come up with a solution, or simply telling me that he didn't have one yet, but if he found out, he would let me know, he decided to ignore me.  It took a post to a public forum about it to get a response from him.  I stand by my recomendation.  Get DM genie, and try it out.  Or DM familliar if you want a lighter version.  Both are great.  Leave RPM to thoes who don't care for curtesy.


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## Luke (Feb 6, 2004)

noretoc said:
			
		

> ...seemed to be like he was questioning my ability to read simple instructions...




Not at all. I simply need to very clearly double check with people what they've done. I quite often end up trying to sort out people's issues, and quite often it ends up with somebody saying something along the lines of _"Oh, yes, that's right. I did do that. Silly me..."_.
RPM has thousands and thousands of downloads, and over time, although the percentage occurrence for this sort of thing is quite minimal, it seems a lot to me, since I'm where it ends up at.
I make no judgements of any individual, but I do learn a certain process that is important to follow because it saves precious time.
Occassionally I get stumped, and a set of quick e-mails can turn into a break of a few days whilst I try to sort something out, and perhaps even hope to see if somebody else is similarly affected. In your case, you unfortunately chose to interpret that as being ignored and forgotten. I'd recommend a simple e-mail to query an incident status first, and then perhaps vent with a nasty comment on a public board after that. 
I have just under 3,500 e-mails in my inbox for the last 11 months (spam etc already removed), and a very similar amount of replies from me in my Outbox. On top of a personal life and doing actual RPM development, it keeps me pretty busy. Generally people don't have an expectation that I'll always get back to them within 2 days (especially for stuff under investigation) - but it looks like I lucked out pretty badly with expectation and demands this time...

Not that it matters to you (but it might to others): it appears that the standard installer I use can do some funny things under certain conditions.
It appears that the installer won't necessarily over-write old files with new files (even with a newer date stamp) _if you have an old copy of the program that you install on top of_.

So it seems that the answer is simply to install the full installation into an empty directory, or make sure that you uninstall the old version first.

There you go. Mea culpa. I'm *flabbergasted* that the installer won't automatically install newer files on top of older ones, but that seems to be the issue.

Luke


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## Kichwas (Feb 6, 2004)

I run from my laptop and tend to have five applications going:

The 3.5 Encounter EL & XP calculator
a Kalamar names generator
Jamis Buck's Treasure Generator
Netscape
Notepad

I have a wireless network here, so I can get away with the online stuff.

I use notepad to track plot developments in a text file and look up those things I wish to have happen that night, which I keep in a sort of rough outline.


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## Kichwas (Feb 7, 2004)

mafisto said:
			
		

> My players take combat and rules very seriously, and they actually *like* seeing me look things up when there's even a hint of discord.



My style is more story and imrpov based, but I do rules lookup at the table as well - I task a player with it, and ask for a quote.

I'd rather we be right on the rules than have to deal with an inconsistancy.


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## SpecialK (Feb 11, 2004)

Let me just start by saying that I'm not affiliated with any software/company. I'm just Joe user. 

When my game got to mid level and opponents' stat blocks ran a page long and opponent's numbers were in the twenties and thirties, the game broke down. I couldn't keep track of everything. To keep the game flowing, opponents were not played to the best of their abilities and encounters ended up being short-changed. The PCs got off too easy. I turned to some electronic aids for help. I first looked at some Excel spreadsheets that were not really meant to be used in game. They helped minimally. I needed much more and read about RolePlayingMaster. I downloaded it didn't have any trouble getting it installed (as others have). But I've now really tried it 3-4 times without success. It's just too complicated and non-intuitive. There's no easy way to get up and running quickly. And I REALLY wanted it to work for me. Ultimately I turned to DM Genie and have had pretty good success with it. It's more intuitive and has a nice tutorial to guide you through getting started. Once you get started, no problem. I ran my first session with it, and it significantly helped out in complex combat, keeping track of XPs, organizing the adventure, weather conditions, player and enemy conditions, generating opponents' on-the-fly and easy lookup of spells, skills and feats. Also, it can accomodate 3.0 and 3.5 rules (important since my current campaign is 3.0 and future campaigns may be 3.5).

Perhaps if RPM had a good walk through tutorial it would replace DM Genie for me. But for now, it's DM Genie.

Hope this helps.




			
				Ostler said:
			
		

> So I'm going to be restarting my high level campaign soon.  (Players keep pestering me.)  Given the amount of information I will need to keep track of I'm thinking about becoming a Laptop DM.
> 
> I have a AMD K6/2 500Mhz laptop that is otherwise unused so I figured I could devote it to gaming.
> 
> ...


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## WizarDru (Feb 12, 2004)

Laptops have proliferated at my table, it seems, and as DM, I think I'm the guilty party. 

My players tend to keep laptops for quick access to the SRD (my personal favorite version is Soveilor's SRD variant), keeping records for the story hour, and doing mathematical calculations.

I use DM Genie (as does at least one player) for it's ease of use, and ability to play the game the way that I want to.  I haven't tried RPM lately, but both it and DMF didn't really match my style, and the interfaces weren't intuitive to my way of working.  All three products have deep features, but DM Genie was the only one where I felt I could get at them without a lot of work.  RPM, in particular, has lots of features that I wouldn't take advantage of, even though they looked nice, such as the campaign tools.

Running an Epic Level game (6 players of 22nd/23rd levels), a typical combat may have 25 active spell effects, all interacting in odd ways.  Being able to pull that kind of data up with no fuss..._fast_...is what I need.  DMGenie's ability to create creatures on the fly, apply a template and then add class levels, is huge.  The same applies to importing stat-blocks.  Ultra-fast access to spell lists is very nice, and sold the program to at least one player for that feature alone.

DM Genie has it's failings, too.  Some effects aren't implented well (not nearly so much as RPM does, with its much better calculation of stacked effects), and importing creatures can be a challenge, as the intepetation of stat-blocks is finicky.  Creation of custom-effects or non-core material has to be created, of course, and isn't always easy.

Truthfully, none of the three products listed here will serve you poorly.  They are all quality products, afaik, and well supported by their creators.


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## Luke (Feb 13, 2004)

SpecialK said:
			
		

> Ultimately I turned to DM Genie and have had pretty good success with it.
> Perhaps if RPM had a good walk through tutorial it would replace DM Genie for me. But for now, it's DM Genie.
> 
> Hope this helps.




I've noticed a few pro-DMgenie messages with negative RPM comments lately. They appear to be from very recently registered users making their first or second post.

On this thread:

Mafisto - Total of 4 posts (3 on this thread)
Slipshod - Total of 2 posts (both on this thread)
SpecialK - Total of 1 post (this thread)

Its as if non-members were browsing the ENboards and then suddenly joined up because of this interestinig thread, to relate difficult experiences of RPM, and why they like DMGenie.


Mafisto: "Not like I'm an official DMGenie spokesman or anything"

SpecialK: "Let me just start by saying that I'm not affiliated with any software/company. I'm just Joe user."

And the RPM horror stories from them: The worst I've ever heard   

Its kind of unusual. Interesting...  

In fact, its so spooky in its amazing co-incidences that its the funniest thing I've come across in quite a while


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## GodPhoenix (Feb 13, 2004)

I really like PCGen...it's got great support and even if you're a programming-know-nothing it's easy to edit the lists to make your own campaign specific feats etc.  I've twiddled with the new GM Gen function they've added recently and I think it's got good potential.

I haven't tried RPM, but listening to Luke makes me want to go check out his program.  I looked at it once a long time ago and got confused early and then didn't devote a lot of time to it.

[RAVE] I can't say enough about Campaign Cartographer 2 from Profantasy.  Best mapping program ever.  Whenever my group can't get together to play for a while I end up making maps of cities and dungeons they *might* visit...just for fun.  And it's obscenely easy to make and print maps to scale for combat.  The program is expensive, though, but I've found it's well worth it. [/RAVE]


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## GodPhoenix (Feb 13, 2004)

[Edit] double post


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## mafisto (Feb 13, 2004)

Luke said:
			
		

> I've noticed a few pro-DMgenie messages with negative RPM comments lately. They appear to be from very recently registered users making their first or second post.
> 
> On this thread:
> 
> ...



Um, yeah, I joined EN World in November so I could recommend DM Genie to one guy two months later.  I would put this under 'paranoid with too much free time'.  And my quote you abused above was in reference to you unfairly bashing a product with a non-fact.  I certainly can't speak for the mechanics of how the product works, but I do know what it does.  

Personally, I don't care how much time you spend knocking other people's software, but I do care when my personal integrity is brought into question.  Buzz off.


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## WizarDru (Feb 13, 2004)

Has anyone tried Dundjinni?  I've only glanced at it, but I'm curious how intuitive it is.  I think Campaign Cartographer looks powerful, but it takes too long for me to make use of, and felt too much like a CAD program (which, I suppose, is essentially what it is).  

I really just want a simple click-and-drag Visio-like tool, but with better graphics than Visio generally has.  Dundjinni looks like it might be that program, but I haven't had a chance to play with it.


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## omokage (Feb 13, 2004)

I like RPM and the features it has. Speaking as a professional interface designer, however, I would have to agree that it's not necessarily the easiest to use or prettiest program.

As I understand it, Luke is the only developer on RPM and has focused his effort according to his own abilities, and I applaud him for it. What RPM does well it excels at. What it fails at are important, but I believe them to be a fair sacrifice for the fact that the product exists and works.


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## mafisto (Feb 13, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Has anyone tried Dundjinni?  I've only glanced at it, but I'm curious how intuitive it is.  I think Campaign Cartographer looks powerful, but it takes too long for me to make use of, and felt too much like a CAD program (which, I suppose, is essentially what it is).
> 
> I really just want a simple click-and-drag Visio-like tool, but with better graphics than Visio generally has.  Dundjinni looks like it might be that program, but I haven't had a chance to play with it.



Well, I've never seen that before!

I own CC2 and like it, but have never felt completely comfortable with it.  It certainly is powerful, but I've been looking for something a bit more campaign oriented.  I'm interested in seeing what Dundjinni can do, as well.


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## WizarDru (Feb 14, 2004)

mafisto said:
			
		

> Well, I've never seen that before!
> 
> I own CC2 and like it, but have never felt completely comfortable with it. It certainly is powerful, but I've been looking for something a bit more campaign oriented. I'm interested in seeing what Dundjinni can do, as well.



It's from Fluid, and hopefully is closer to the original PHB character creator.  You can see it at the Dundjinni website.  It's not actually going to be out until April, I think.


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## GodPhoenix (Feb 14, 2004)

mafisto said:
			
		

> I own CC2 and like it, but have never felt completely comfortable with it.  It certainly is powerful, but I've been looking for something a bit more campaign oriented.  I'm interested in seeing what Dundjinni can do, as well.




Do what I did...work through the tutorial in the manual...twiddle with it for about a month (be sure to check the website for other ppl's maps you can download and get ideas from)...then...and this is very important...

DON'T THINK ABOUT OR TOUCH IT FOR A MONTH  

Then go back.  *much* easier on your second attempt...use the links to connect maps...zoom around your world...attach your computer to a TV and you can show your PCs.

I find it's very campaign oriented...I have large world scale maps...you can click on the tiny city icons and whoosh, you're at the map of the city...click on the town hall...fwwwp, you're looking at the floorplan...etc etc


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## Luke (Feb 14, 2004)

omokage said:
			
		

> I like RPM and the features it has. Speaking as a professional interface designer, however, I would have to agree that it's not necessarily the easiest to use or prettiest program.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Thanks Omokage,
> ...


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## noretoc (Feb 15, 2004)

Luke said:
			
		

> I've noticed a few pro-DMgenie messages with negative RPM comments lately. They appear to be from very recently registered users making their first or second post.
> 
> On this thread:
> 
> ...



Well now, I think this speaks volumes more about RPM's creator then any post made by another. Thanks Luke.


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## omokage (Feb 15, 2004)

Luke, I do enjoy your product and have gotten a lot of good use out of it, don't get me wrong. I'd love to sit down and develop a use case for the product, but I really don't have the time. Though, be sure to know that once the time does come up, I'll contact you personally about what my ideas would be.

cheers.


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## Luke (Feb 15, 2004)

omokage said:
			
		

> Luke, I do enjoy your product and have gotten a lot of good use out of it, don't get me wrong. I'd love to sit down and develop a use case for the product, but I really don't have the time. Though, be sure to know that once the time does come up, I'll contact you personally about what my ideas would be.
> 
> cheers.




Thanks!

My post was more of an explanation than a request, and I didn't expect anything.
If you ever do come up with a perfect/better answer to general RPG/wide functionality/multi-roled" user-interface problem, I'm all ears!


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## dreaded_beast (Feb 15, 2004)

This has been a very informative thread so far and has given me a few ideas of where to start. However, this is the big question for me:

Are there any Laptop aids that are "freeware"?


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## mafisto (Feb 15, 2004)

GodPhoenix said:
			
		

> I find it's very campaign oriented...I have large world scale maps...you can click on the tiny city icons and whoosh, you're at the map of the city...click on the town hall...fwwwp, you're looking at the floorplan...etc etc



See now, that's exactly what I want!  I've been using CC2 in the most obvious way possible, without really looking into the features that would draw me into the product more.

Thanks for the inspiration; I'm going to go through the tutorial again tonight.


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## drakhe (Feb 16, 2004)

*Whatever you decied to use, just remember...*

Whatever you decide to choose, just remember :

As a DM, you will still need to invest time and effort to make any of these applications come through for you. You will need to prep just as before. And maybe even more then before as you have to make shure you typed every correctly. A program is only as good as the data you feed it! So yes they ALL speed up play! And no, they don't remove the need to prep! (having visions of tool X that does ALL in game calculations, has extensive campaign management, includes every feature of every currently existing peice of software AND has a library of campaign modules including all currently in print so prepping would just be an import away ;-) )

On a personal note, I bought etools, campaign suite, dmgenie, rpm, metacreator, fractal mapper and screenmonkey. At this time, I'm using etools as my official character sheet generator (specificaly because every one of my players has it) and dmgenie as in game tool. (the other tools I bought will receive due attention). First attention will go to screenmonkey as this will allow me to present my players with an interactive battle environment (the main feature I like is the dmscreen where a battle environment with fog-of-war may be displayed on a secundary monitor)

With regards to the tools I bougth, they all take time to get used to, they all have a learning curve (as does any piece of software, heck, anything new you buy will take time to get used to!)

What I find very weird (and this is a fenomenon I specificaly noticed concerning the whole mastertools/etools thing) is the number of people that complain about a piece of software (in the widest sence possible, not limited to the tools mentioned in this thread) because it doesn't do what they need it to do or does not contain all the features they think it should have. All software that is in one or other way mass-marketed (be it commercial, freeware, shareware, open license, or whatnot...) is per definition created to be usefull to a large number of people, hence specific/specialised/oddball features must needs make room for the most/more common features.


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## GodPhoenix (Feb 17, 2004)

mafisto said:
			
		

> See now, that's exactly what I want!  I've been using CC2 in the most obvious way possible, without really looking into the features that would draw me into the product more.
> 
> Thanks for the inspiration; I'm going to go through the tutorial again tonight.




Good!  Feel free to IM me if you have questions (but I may not know the answer).  The feature that I referenced is called "link" where you can create links to other maps from the visible map.  I don't know if it's explained in the tutorial, but it's in the help files.  Oh, and the help files are fan-tastic.  I thought it'd be a major pain to print to scale, but the help files made it super easy.

We actually play with a laptop running CC2 hooked up to a projector...and run combat on the wall.  It's nice if the PCs want to fight someone in town...everythings already there and to-scale.  I also have a bunch of 'generic' encounter maps ready (forest, road, lakeside, desert, graveyard, mountains, etc) just in case the PCs go somewhere I wasn't expecting.


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## Wonko the Sane (Feb 17, 2004)

<_slowly guiding the thread even more off-topic..._>

My basement doesn't have a ceiling _per se_, so the projector is lashed to the roof beams and shines right down on the table 

The only improvement would be to put the projector _under_ the table made of some material that is a)opaque enough to catch the projection but b) clear enough to see through, and c) tough enough to deal with dropped cigarettes, spilled coke, etc.  Does anyone know of such a material?

I use CC2 to make dungeon maps, with each room on it's own layer.  I reveal each room as they come to it, complete with furnishings and cute little jpegs of the critters in the room (thanks WotC ).

God, I love gaming in the 21st century


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## GodPhoenix (Feb 17, 2004)

Wonko the Sane said:
			
		

> Does anyone know of such a material?
> 
> I use CC2 to make dungeon maps, with each room on it's own layer.  I reveal each room as they come to it, complete with furnishings and cute little jpegs of the critters in the room (thanks WotC ).
> 
> God, I love gaming in the 21st century




Yeah, well...not an actual material...but you can take a large sheet of plexi-glass and spray on...I don't know what it's called...but you use it to faux-frost glass.  Spray it on the bottom and project from the bottom.  Then you can use overhead projector markers to scribble on the top, etc.  Should work...AND it'll keep people from getting blinded. 

We do the individual room reveals too.  It rules.


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## WingOver (Feb 17, 2004)

GodPhoenix said:
			
		

> Yeah, well...not an actual material...but you can take a large sheet of plexi-glass and spray on...I don't know what it's called...but you use it to faux-frost glass.  Spray it on the bottom and project from the bottom.  Then you can use overhead projector markers to scribble on the top, etc.  Should work...AND it'll keep people from getting blinded.
> 
> We do the individual room reveals too.  It rules.





Wow... these are some pretty cool concepts.  Maybe you could mount the projector high and have it shine into a mirror that reflects to the table?  But I suppose you'd still have a shadow problem when players leaned over it.

How do you play with the map projected against the wall?  Do you move the character icons on the CC2 map for your players?  Doesn't that make extra work for you and slow the game down?

You know what would be cool?  When digital paper is produced in mass quantities and the cost goes down.  Maybe we'll start seeing poster-sized rolls of this stuff in 5 years.  Plug your notebook into it and load your map on it.  You'd have a dynamically loaded map that could scroll and players could use minis on top of.


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## GodPhoenix (Feb 17, 2004)

WingOver said:
			
		

> How do you play with the map projected against the wall?  Do you move the character icons on the CC2 map for your players?




Yup, agaisnt a wall...or a hanging screen/sheet...or just use a TV instead of a projector.  If you don't have a projector or TV you can use, it's easy to print maps to scale.  (and free when you print from work) 



			
				WingOver said:
			
		

> Doesn't that make extra work for you and slow the game down?




No, not really...you can put the character squares/symbols on a separate layer, then freeze all the other layers...that way when you select one to move, you don't move background stuff with them.  It takes no time at all once you're used to it...and we don't even use the keyboard shortcuts.  It's also useful for spell effects...ex. - the wall of fire is here (draw orange line)


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