# My, how the adventures have changed...



## Wik (Dec 15, 2007)

So, since the beginning, there has been "that" adventure - we all know about it, we've all done it.  Here, for your amusement, is my breakdown of how "That" adventure has played out over the years (and through the editions):


BECMI (or, "old D&D")

The party makes their way to the dungeon.  Before leaving the town, they hire a guide, who is a basic 0th level man-at-arms.  The process consists of dropping a few silver pieces, and the guide is nameless. 

When the group reaches the dungeon, they leave the guide behind.  They enter the dungeon, and fight twenty goblins.  The wizard takes out a few with a well-cast sleep spell, before retreating and doing little in the combat, while the fighter and cleric perform much more ably.  The fight takes a while (both in game, and out of game) - ten combat rounds, which translates to ten minutes in the game.  But then, the goblins are dead.

The PCs loot the room, and search the place for secret doors.  They find a concealed door in one wall, which leads to a treasure chest.  The rogue searches for traps, but doesn't find any.  Of course, his find traps skill is only 25%, so it's no surprise when the poison arrow trap is triggered, and the rogue is pricked and poisoned.  He fails his save, and dies.  

Opening the chest, they find a +1 longsword, which the fighter quickly accepts. 

The PCs take their loot, and head home.

1E

Along the way to the abandoned monastery complex, the PCs encouter a hermit, who suggests that he accompany the PCs on their journey.  They decide it is best that he do so, since he obviously knows the way there. 

The monastery is mostly ruined, with only a few pillars of support on the surface, but their guide manages to find an entrance to the extensive monastery dungeons.  The PCs prepare to enter, before the guide says "I will go no further;  I will wait for you here."

Inside the dungeon, the PCs encounter a group of twelve goblins, lead either by "an especially large goblin" (a subchief) or an orc.  The wizard still wipes out a few goblins with his sleep spell, while the dwarven fighter stands in the middle of the room, mostly dodging the goblins' attacks.  The rogue pulls off a few shots with his short bow.  

The fight takes almost ten minutes of game time, and significantly longer in real time.  The group quickly decides to search the room, but wish to do so quickly, since wandering monsters could occur at any moment.  Luckily, the elf in their party makes finding the concealed door that "pops" out of the wall easy.  When they find the chest, the rogue searches it for traps, and doesn't find the poison arrow trap.

The rogue is poisoned, and dies.  However, the group has managed to find a fair amount of wealth, including a red ruby.  "No problem" says the dwarf.  "We can raise our rogue when we return to the town".

Also in the chest is a +1 longsword, which the fighter takes proudly.  

On the way out, the Guide waits for them. He backstabs the fighter, and then sneers "Hand over the red ruby, Or I will kill you all!"

A fight ensues, and the wizard is almost killed.  The party returns to the town, broken and battered, but wiser for the experience.

2nd Edition

The group learns of the old Church of Shelae, a once-proud monastery that housed loyal acolytes.  However, the PCs learn that several decades ago, a fire burned out the monastery, and many of the acolytes were burned alive in the blaze.  Some say their ghosts haunt the monastery, and it has long been avoided...

The group - a Halfling Rogue loyal to his home village, a Vengeful Dwarven Fighter witha hatred for Orcs, an Elven Wizard/Fighter, and a kindly human cleric of Thor - make their way towards the dungeon, along the way encountering a guide named Finnaeus Marduk.  After a lengthy RP session, Finnaeus agrees to escort the PCs to the monastery.

Many encounters ensue, including a whole side-adventure involving bandits.  Also, both the dwarf and halfling get to make use of their mountaineering proficiency to flank the bandit party, while the elf finds a use for his heraldry skill.  Eventually, though, the PCs make their way to the monastery, and make a thorough examination of the surface.  In fact, there is an RP encounter with the ghost of one of the former abbots, who warns of grave danger in the monastery dungeons.  "Beware the red ruby!"

Once the group enters the dungeon, they come across a group of eight goblins, as well as two goblins that are "considerably larger" than the rest.  This fight lasts several minutes in game time, and ends when the wizard is able to cast a sleep spell.

The group then searches for secret doors.  They find a concealed door, that had originally been put in the dungeon as a means of allowing a former acolyte to maintain an affair with one of the monastery nuns - in fact, this affair is somehow responsible for the whole place burning down (not that the PCs ever learn this, of course).  

The chest is searched for traps.  While the rogue could have put points into Find/Remove traps, he was, after all, a village halfling, and so decided to put points into Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, and Listen, meaning his Trapfinding skill is rather poor.  The poor rogue opens the chest, and is poisoned.  He fails his saving throw, and should die.

However, the GM has a sub-plot involving the rogue in mind next session, and so instead handwaves the scenario, instead inflicting just enough damage to put the halfling at 1 hit points.

Inside the chest is a +1 longsword.  Everyone in the group looks at it, and decides it's useless - the fighter is proficient in axes, the halfling is too small, and the elf is proficient in short swords ("It's more in character!").  Since the item cannot be sold, the PCs leave it in the chest.  But, hey, at least they found the red ruby!

On the way out, they are ambushed by Finnaeus.  The dwarf lands a few strong hits, and one that should kill the traitor easily.  However, the GM arranges the situation so that Finnaeus instead escapes - with the red ruby - so that the PCs can chase him in the next adventure.

3rd Edition/3.5E

The PCs approach the dungeon, a burned-out monastery.  they've done some basic information gathering (particularly the rogue, who uses his gather information skill wisely!), but are ready to loot this dungeon!

Along the way, they encounter Finnaeus, who tries to convince his way to accompany the party.  However, the Cleric and Rogue both have ranks in Sense Motive, and Finnaeus rolls low on his bluff check.  The PCs realize his game, and surprise him.  A fight ensues, and the mage blasts Finnaeus with a few spells, while the dwarven fighter power attacks for all he's worth.

Finn is killed in three rounds - less than twenty seconds.

Their resources expended, the group rests for the night, entering the monastery in the morning.

They make their way into the dungeon, and encounter a few small fights before coming across four goblin warriors (and a goblin expert with a crossbow), led by a goblin barbarian with improved initiative that flies into a rage.  The mage casts a sleep spell that takes out two goblins, while the fighter and rogue square off against the barbarian.  The cleric was able to cast a single buff spell on himself before the fight, and takes out the remaining goblins.

Afterwards, they decide to search the room.  Knowing that they haven't found enough treasure commesurate with the CRs they have faced, they know treasure must be nearby, so they take 20 on their search checks - after all, wandering monsters are so passe. 

They find a secret door, slide it open, and find the chest.  The Rogue takes 20 on his search check, and finds the trap.  

He decides to disable the device, while the rest of the group waits thirty feet away.  While he fails on his check, and a needle device pokes him, the rogue "only" takes 2d6 points of constitution damage.  Harmed, but not dead, the PCs open the chest, and find a red ruby (did I say ruby?  I meant to say "Jade", or some other cheaper gem... they are only 1st level!) as well as a +1 longsword.

The dwarf can use the longsword, sure, but he has weapon focus in the war axe, so they just pack it away.  They'll use it if they face a monster with damage reduction, but as soon as they can get magical weapons, they'll sell the sword and buy a cloak of resistance or something (the rogue could use that saving throw bonus against poisons!)

They make their way home, happy with their catch.

***

So, what's my point with all this?  Besides being a little snarky:

1)  That the rules systems of D&D do influence the game experience.  Or, to put it another way, all those fond memories we have of BECMI cannot be re-enacted in 3E.  The rules just don't allow it.

2)  As the editions have progressed, fights have become smaller, while Player powers have grown.

3)  3rd edition has probably made the game more enjoyable for rogues, without relying on DM fiat.

And I'm sure there's a bunch of other points.

For what it's worth, I've played similar scenarios to those described above, and while I'm overgeneralizing, the outcomes are more or less how I've outlined it.  BECMI tends towards simplistic descriptions, 1E tends towards a fair amount of detail, but is still focused on the dungeon;  2e tends to go overboard on detail, looks down on the dungeon experience, and often depends on GM fiat, while 3e often perhaps spends too much time and focus on the abilities of monsters.


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## delericho (Dec 15, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> BECMI (or, "old D&D")
> 
> The fight takes a while (both in game, and out of game) - ten combat rounds, which translates to ten minutes in the game.




Nitpick: In BD&D, a round was 10 seconds.



> 3rd Edition/3.5E




I take it 3rd edition is not your favourite? 



> 1)  That the rules systems of D&D do influence the game experience.  Or, to put it another way, all those fond memories we have of BECMI cannot be re-enacted in 3E.  The rules just don't allow it.




Actually, with the exceptions of the "take 20 on Search" thing and the "selling magic items" thing, the differences are only in descriptions and numbers.

For example, the Bluff/Sense Motive thing comes down to numbers - if the traitor his a higher skill modifier, the scenario goes down exactly as in 1e. If the poison does 3d6 Con damage instead of 2d6, the Rogue is dead, just as in 1e.

If the DM describes the Goblin Barbarian as "a slightly larger Goblin", that encounter works the same as before as well.

I'm really not seeing much difference here. (Oh, and the "they know they haven't found enough treasure yet" is , I suspect, an intentional exaggeration. Different encounters should give different amounts of treasure, so while they might suspect more treasure, they shouldn't _know_... just as in previous editions.)

The "selling magic items" thing is a quirk of 3e. All I can suggest here is that the DM would be better off tailoring the items to the PCs more. Make it a +1 Waraxe, and the problem goes away. Better still, make it a "Weapon of Legacy" Waraxe, and they may never want to sell it (well, they wouldn't, if the WoL rules were better-implemented).

*About Search:*

The Search thing is another annoyance. I've been toying with some house rules in this area, with a view to shifting it back towards an older-school feel.

How about this: "When designing an area, the DM should divide it into 'zones'. For example, the walls might be one zone, while a painting hanging on one wall (and the safe behind said painting) is another zone. When the PCs Search, they must specify a zone to Search (rather than a 5 ft. cube).

If there is a Hazard in a zone (such as a trap or contact poison), there is a risk that the characters will be exposed to the Hazard before they find it. If a Search check fails to find the Hazard by 5 or more, the character is exposed to the Hazard, and suffers the appropriate consequences.

Characters may take 20 on Search checks. However, if there is a Hazard present in the zone, the character will automatically be exposed to it."

How's that?



> 2)  As the editions have progressed, fights have become smaller, while Player powers have grown.
> 
> 3)  3rd edition has probably made the game more enjoyable for rogues, without relying on DM fiat.




I agree with both of these. Point #3 is undeniably a good thing. Point #2 I'm largely indifferent about.


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## Klaus (Dec 15, 2007)

Oh, how I remember that 2e version. The session would drag on for so long that PCs would never reach the monastery and the campaign would die an early death.


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## Nikosandros (Dec 15, 2007)

There were no rogues before 3E...  

Edit: Actually in 2e thieves and bards were part of the rogue group.


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## megamania (Dec 15, 2007)

LOL!



Yeah.... you have pegged it but nothing is wrong with it.   It is funny to have an example of it.  Well done.


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## Holy Bovine (Dec 15, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> 1)  That the rules systems of D&D do influence the game experience.  Or, to put it another way, all those fond memories we have of BECMI cannot be re-enacted in 3E.  The rules just don't allow it.




Or it comes down to you were 12 and you will always have that heavy ting of nostalgia hanging about those memories.

I have re-enacted _exactly_[ what you describe here in my games.  My 3E games.  All the time.  So whatever.


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## Fifth Element (Dec 15, 2007)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> Or it comes down to you were 12 and you will always have that heavy ting of nostalgia hanging about those memories.



QFT. This comes up in all those "sense of wonder" arguments as well. Such things are not inherent to the game system, but depend on the players.

BECMI will always have that nostalgic sense of wonder for me, since that's the edition I started on when I was 11. But if I were 31 at the time, and had been playing since 1974 OD&D, my memories of BECMI would be very different.

The OP could have been very interesting if it were written more objectively. But the bias against 3.x shows pretty clearly when I read it.


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## Numion (Dec 15, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> Along the way, they encounter Finnaeus, who tries to convince his way to accompany the party.  However, the Cleric and Rogue both have ranks in Sense Motive, and Finnaeus rolls low on his bluff check.  The PCs realize his game, and surprise him.  A fight ensues, and the mage blasts Finnaeus with a few spells, while the dwarven fighter power attacks for all he's worth.




In my 1E group poor Finnaeus would've been killed on the account of his NPCisness.



> Afterwards, they decide to search the room.  Knowing that they haven't found enough treasure commesurate with the CRs they have faced, they know treasure must be nearby, so they take 20 on their search checks - after all, wandering monsters are so passe.
> 
> They find a secret door, slide it open, and find the chest.  The Rogue takes 20 on his search check, and finds the trap.




CR - treasure combo usually evens out across a greater range of encounters. So the pre-made adventures can have longer dry-runs with little or no adventure, while a greater cache is found at some point. Sometimes unguarded. So this is not the kind of reasoning my players ever made, and I suspect others wouldn't make either, unless the DM had been asleep at the wheel, always matching CR-EL.

In 3E the encounter tables are _random_, so if the DM uses those, it's going to be random.

Kudos on the thread though, if you're going to do the old rose-colored glasses bash, at least put some effort into it


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## RangerWickett (Dec 15, 2007)

4th Edition?

A beleaguered village in the wilderness provides an evening of shelter for the heroes. While staying at the local inn, the party hears of monsters that lair in a ruined temple outside of town. If these monsters were slain, perhaps the heroes could bring a point of light to this dark world. The party heads out the next morning, guided by the town's priest Finnaeus. 

While climbing a cliff up to the temple, they're attacked by 4 mountaintooth crawlers (undead wolves that lurk on slopes) led by a worg warlock. The party's human warlord screams a battle cry, allowing the halfling rogue to use her Shadow Foot maneuver to sprint into the middle of the  wolf pack as an immediate action. Then the party's eladrin wizard uses her innate power to then swap the position of the halfling rogue and her dragonborn fighter ally via teleportation. The dragonborn fighter employs his Least Whirlwind Wallop maneuver to strike all four wolves at once, dealing some damage and knocking them out of pack formation.

The warlord, rogue, and tiefling warlock then use their normal actions for the turn to hack, stab, and eldritchly zap the wolves. However, the worg warlock conjures the power of the Funion Miasma, trapping the fighter, rogue, and warlord in stinking tendrils. While the mountaintooth crawlers gnaw at the melee warriors, the wizard and warlock turn their attention to the hostile spellcaster. The eladrin wizard pulls forth her orb and conjures the power of the Iron Sigil to bind the worg in place, while the tiefling warlock strikes it with eldritch bolts, using the Spelldeath Tongue invocation to successfully dispel the worg's own magic when he strikes it.

Freed from the miasma, the heroes chop the undead wolves to bits, and are angling to beat down the worg warlock when it turns to a swarm of shadowy bats and flees. The warlord says, "Good job everyone," and everyone heals back their damage. Combat has taken 24 seconds in game, 10 minutes out of game. Still nearly four hours of session left.

The heroes soon make it to the ruined temple, a sprawling complex on three different levels, with some rooms built into the mountain. Finnaeus tells them there's a vault with treasure that can only be opened by securing the holy water from the main prayer chamber and pouring it out from the silver urn in the old priest's quarters. The priest stays behind, kneeling and praying at a sacred rest circle located outside the temple (there are many of these throughout the land, often next to dungeons; if you set up a tent here and say a ritual, you can stay for up to 12 hours, and nothing can attack you).

The dragonborn fighter suggests that he could just hack through the vault door with a pick, instead of having to fight all the monsters, but the DM tells the player that walls and doors in this dungeon are impervious to damage. It's, um, ancient magic.

The heroes go room by room, usually coming across 5 goblins, whose hoots and hollers call another 5 or 10 goblins from nearby areas, or occasionally a blackpelt urdwolf, special goblin-trained wolves that can climb on walls. The heroes recognize a strange similarity between these wolves and the mountaintooth crawlers. In each fight, the fighter does something awesome like tearing off a wolf's head and using its jaw as a climbing piton to impale another wolf into the wall or something, and the rogue quickdraws dozens of daggers and sneak attacks everything that isn't directly attacking her, while the warlock causes goblins to faint from fear one by one, and the eladrin wizard calls thunderbolts from the sky (even when indoors) to stun several goblins at once.

The warlord does nothing on his own but shout encouragement like a cheerleader, letting everyone else do cool stuff.

After 6 encounters, the heroes have used up a few of their per-day abilities, and it's been about two hours of game time. They then manage to defeat the goblin necromancer mini-boss (and his skeletal horde) to get to the silver urn, and slay the orc paladin of Orcus mini-boss (and his firemaw hellhound minion) to get the holy water. Against the anti-paladin, the dragonborn fighter wanted to break the orc's morningstar by chopping it in half, but he found out the weapon was invincible (it must've been made from the same material they make the doors out of).

Finally it is time to open the vault, but just before they do the rogue's trap sense alerts her that there's a trap, and she stops the party. The trap is a convoluted mechanism that requires all 5 PCs to stand in different areas of the room to depress pressure plates that then open a panel which lets the rogue disarm the trap. However, she fails her third skill check to disable the final mechanism, and a tiny poison arrow pops out. The warlord was ready for this, though, and shouts, "Move!", which lets the rogue move 20 ft. out of the way before the arrow can reach her.

When the vault opens, however, the heroes hear Finnaeus cackling from behind them. They turn and see the man has replaced his old holy symbol with that of Judas (god of betrayal), and he spits a curse at them. The warlock slays him with one blast, but then the curse summons a greenscale barghest of Tiamat, a truly elite foe. The heroes have a 10-round battle that takes half an hour to run, and by the end they have used up all their per-day abilities, but they have won the fight, and it is time to collect their reward.

Inside the vault there is a +1 longs-, wait, the dragonborn fighter uses a pick? A +1 pick. And a +1 orb. And boots of jumping-a-little-better for the rogue, and a undergloom flamecrown for the warlock to let him deal +1 fire damage with his eldritch blasts, and a potion of big lungs for the warlock to let him yell even louder. There's also a map to the next town.


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## Remathilis (Dec 15, 2007)

Interestingly, removing the snark out it and you have the differences between OD&D-3e *module writing *down pat. 

OD&D/BECMI was simplistic because there wasn't much more to it than combat rules. (and by combat, I mean "I hit, I miss" and a lot of those works were VERY generic ("The Shrine of Evil Chaos"), so modules did boil down to a single paragraph explaining the monsters, trap, and treasure.

1e added more detail to settings and people, often injecting "Greyhawkisms" into the the setting and building on previous modules, but still the three "Against the Giants" modules are just large dungeons. 

2e focused on world, story, and characters. This was the era of scripted modules, important (unkillable) NPCs, and deux-ex-machina. Its primarily the reason I never ran many 2e modules, to many of them were NOT generic, but built around the assumptions of Forgotten Realms, Ravenloft, or Planescape. The only point I disagree on is DM Fiat: the thief dying form a poison trap should have been across all editions so far, there is no reason (beyond the DM, who could do it in any edition) for him to live.

3e was the attempt to put 2e's story focus atop 1e's dungeon and made a mix that when it worked right was amazing but was a headache to design for. All of the examples (even 2e) I could pull of my ... _Core Books_, with little fuss. However, designing goblin crossbow men, the hermits bluff numbers, and the goblin bbn would all require time and number-crafting. Blech. Sure the combat would have been more intense, but it would also be longer and more drawn out to compensate for the level of detail. 

Another good example would be drawing a sunset. DECMI is a thumbnail sketch on a cocktail napkin, done while your waiting for your mate. 1e is a pencil sketch you do sitting in class for the hour bored. 2e is a colored-pencil and ink sketch that takes the better part of an afternoon. 3e is a full painting, rich, vibrant and time-consuming. 

So, if you were objective to 2e and 3e a bit more, you'd have been spot on.


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## Doug McCrae (Dec 15, 2007)

Great stuff, Wik.

Note that your own examples show that sleep was more powerful in earlier editions, so not all PC powers have increased.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Dec 15, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> For example, the Bluff/Sense Motive thing comes down to numbers - if the traitor his a higher skill modifier, the scenario goes down exactly as in 1e. If the poison does 3d6 Con damage instead of 2d6, the Rogue is dead, just as in 1e.




No I disagree with this, for two reasons.

1) Did anyone ever roll Sense Motive or equivalent in 2e?

2) Most rogues have a decent Con (around 12) nowadays, since it actually means something, so there's a better chance of surviving a 3d6 Con poison. (In fact, if the rogue was lucky and the DM rolled a six, they could have survived with an 8 Con.)



> If the DM describes the Goblin Barbarian as "a slightly larger Goblin", that encounter works the same as before as well.




Except the large goblin wouldn't have had PC "class" powers. (Well, probably...)


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## delericho (Dec 15, 2007)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> No I disagree with this, for two reasons.
> 
> 1) Did anyone ever roll Sense Motive or equivalent in 2e?




No. They probably assumed that the NPC was out to screw them over, and killed him straight off the bat. However, a 3e failed check in this regard is exactly the same as the 2e scenario - the PCs have no information, and must base their actions on that. Hence, the encounters play out the same way.



> 2) Most rogues have a decent Con (around 12) nowadays, since it actually means something, so there's a better chance of surviving a 3d6 Con poison. (In fact, if the rogue was lucky and the DM rolled a six, they could have survived with an 8 Con.)




Okay, make it a 4d6 damage poison. Or a 5d6 one, or whatever. It's all still just numbers - make the poison lethal enough and the Rogue dies.

And, frankly, I fail to see how the game easily modelling poisons of different lethality can be considered anything other than a good thing. Oh no, the Rogue might actually survive!   



> Except the large goblin wouldn't have had PC "class" powers. (Well, probably...)




So? That's 'behind the curtain' information. Frankly, it makes no difference if this Goblin is more powerful because it's using the 'subchief' category from the MM, if it's using advanced stats that the DM has homebrewed, or if the creature is built by adding a level of Barbarian to the class. All that the players know is "this Goblin is bigger and tougher than the rest".


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## Fifth Element (Dec 15, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> So? That's 'behind the curtain' information. Frankly, it makes no difference if this Goblin is more powerful because it's using the 'subchief' category from the MM, if it's using advanced stats that the DM has homebrewed, or if the creature is built by adding a level of Barbarian to the class. All that the players know is "this Goblin is bigger and tougher than the rest".



Exactly. Old D&D modules had things like "The chief is much larger than the other goblins. He has 4 Hit Dice and receives a +2 bonus to attack and damage due to his great strength."

The goblins chiefs have always been more powerful. It's just a matter of how that extra power was implemented mechanically.


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## T. Foster (Dec 15, 2007)

Original D&D (1974):

The party intends to make their way to a part of the 1st dungeon level that they haven't previously explored; the southwest quadrant of their map. After a bit of fruitless wandering around in the maze (and running away from some wandering monsters) they finally manage to find a passage that takes them in that direction. They meet a group of lawful gnomes who tell them that the area they are headed for is occupied by goblins, but the party isn't able to convince the gnomes to join them (mediocre reaction roll). Anticipating a large fight, the party decides to head back to town to hire some men-at-arms. The magic-user will also swap out the Charm Person he had prepared for a Sleep spell. The fighter's player calls his friend Joe who has a dwarf character and tells him "we're about to roust a big group of goblins, want in?" to which Joe replies "I'd love to but I've got a term-paper due in the morning that I need to finish. Kick some ass for me and leave a copy of your map behind so if you all get wiped out Fred and I can at least follow in your tracks in this Saturday's game and finish 'em off."

The next day the party re-enters the dungeon with 6 men-at-arms, and head quickly for where they left off before, trying to minimize wandering monster checks. The gnomes they had encountered the previous day are no longer there. The party soldiers on into the "goblin area" and meet twenty goblins. The magic-user takes out a few with a well-cast sleep spell, before retreating and doing little in the combat. The fighter and cleric perform more ably, but the bulk of actual fighting is done by the men-at-arms with the players serving as command figures -- the cleric has a high charisma, giving the men-at-arms a loyalty bonus, so he gives most of the orders. The fight takes a while (both in game, and out of game) - five combat rounds, which translates to five minutes in the game. But then, the goblins' morale breaks and the last 6 run away. 3 of the 6 men-at-arms also survived.

The PCs spike all the doors shut and leave 1 man-at-arms listening at each of the room's 3 doors for approaching wandering monsters (or the surviving goblins coming back with reinforcements) and proceed to loot the room and search the place for secret doors. They find a concealed door in one wall, which leads to a treasure chest. The players suspect the chest is trapped so the magic-user suggests standing behind rather than in front of the chest while he opens it. Alas, the poison arrow trap fires "up" rather than "forward" so the ref declares the magic-user was still in the arrow's path and was hit. He fails his save, and dies. 

Opening the chest, they find a magic sword, but the fighter's player fears it might be of an opposite alignment so he's afraid to pick it up. He tries to order one of the men-at-arms to pick it up, but he refuses (and the ref notes that he will have a lower loyalty score going forward). Finally, the cleric's player convinces the fighter's player that since he's lawful and 65% of magic swords are lawful he'll probably be okay, and since they're only 1st level it's worth the risk. The fighter agrees and picks up the sword -- hooray, it's a lawful +1 sword!

One of the men-at-arms reports that he hears something approaching from the south passage, so the PCs take their loot, retreat back the way they came, and head home. It's been about 2 hours real-time so they decide to call it a night, even though the magic-user's player has his new character (an elf) rolled up and is ready to go. Next session their plan is to explore past the door in the west wall that the goblins fled through, because there's still pretty much blank space on their map in that direction and they don't yet feel confident enough to venture onto dungeon level 2.


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## amethal (Dec 15, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> 4th Edition? (snip)



That sounds awesome. Its the best advert  for 4th edition I've seen so far.



			
				RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Inside the vault there is a +1 longs-, wait, the dragonborn fighter uses a pick? A +1 pick.



I've been doing that kind of thing in every edition I've ever run, except BECMI when I was only 10 and didn't know any better.


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## TarionzCousin (Dec 15, 2007)

Nicely done, Wik.

In 2E, my players would have tied Finnaeus's hands and brought him along, using him as bait to draw out the monsters. If he survived, he would have been forced to open the chest.

Finally, the PC's would have stripped him naked and chased him back to town.

Ah, good times!


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## Khuxan (Dec 15, 2007)

amethal said:
			
		

> That sounds awesome. Its the best advert  for 4th edition I've seen so far.




Agreed. If you cut out the snark and the obvious fallacies (for example, the ritual healing circles and excessive magical items), and remember that the players don't need to know the names of the monsters, that is the best adventure so far.


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## Lorthanoth (Dec 15, 2007)

They all made me chuckle and I now worry about how Wik would write up a certain PbP game he's in?


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## C.W.Richeson (Dec 15, 2007)

I like D&D but I'm not hardcore about it.  For me, someone who likes a variety of RPGs, all four examples just provided the exact same play experience.  The only real difference was how combat was resolved and various mechanics changes.

I guess that, no matter the edition, it's still D&D to me.


----------



## Wik (Dec 15, 2007)

By the way, for those who were wondering - I actually PREFER 3e to all the other editions.  I just find that some of hte considerations that go into prepping 3e adventures were not there in earlier editions.

And, yeah, I was being a little snarky.  I'm doped up on T3s right now.  

Looking back, I probably shouldn't have made those "points", since they ARE debatable.  But, really, I think those generic adventures HAVE changed from edition to edition.

For starters, in earlier editions, that "larger goblin" probably had a +1 or +2 to attack, and maybe double hit points.  In 3.5, he has levels in a class, more abilities, at LEAST double hit points, better hit progression, better saves, and probably innate magical gear to boot.  

Not necessarily a complaint (actually, it isn't - I like how goblins and whatnot can be customizable like that... just look at the current PbP I gm!).  Just an observation.

I didn't know that BECMI rounds were ten seconds long.  I actually like that.  Should remember it next time I try to get a nostalgia game going on.

And regarding that "nostaligia" factor - my game of choice when I was 12 was 2nd edition.  Don't ask me why, I was silly in my youth.  I hate it now, while I will always have a place in my heart for BECMI.


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## Wik (Dec 15, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Okay, make it a 4d6 damage poison. Or a 5d6 one, or whatever. It's all still just numbers - make the poison lethal enough and the Rogue dies.
> 
> And, frankly, I fail to see how the game easily modelling poisons of different lethality can be considered anything other than a good thing. Oh no, the Rogue might actually survive!




IN early editions of the game, poisons were "if you fail, you die".  Later on, there were a variety of different poison types, but most still fall into the "Death" category.

Just trying to point out that, in earlier editions of the game, poison was much more likely to kill you.


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## delericho (Dec 15, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> Just trying to point out that, in earlier editions of the game, poison was much more likely to kill you.




Understood. If I was excessively snarky, I apologise.


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## Wik (Dec 15, 2007)

I think the whole point of this thread is snarkiness, my friend.  I should put it in the title.


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## Rabelais (Dec 15, 2007)

TarionzCousin said:
			
		

> Nicely done, Wik.
> 
> In 2E, my players would have tied Finnaeus's hands and brought him along, using him as bait to draw out the monsters. If he survived, he would have been forced to open the chest.
> 
> ...





In 3.5?  well, lets just say that it would be a criminal waste of a valuable food source to do something like that.


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## Wik (Dec 15, 2007)

I'm sorry, but I believe Cannibalism doesn't count as true "food", and sustaining off other people would at least fatigue you for the day.  

Let's be realistic, here.


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## +5 Keyboard! (Dec 15, 2007)

Kudos on the thread, Wik. A very fun read.


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## Slife (Dec 15, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I believe Cannibalism doesn't count as true "food", and sustaining off other people would at least fatigue you for the day.
> 
> Let's be realistic, here.



This is why my parties always have multiple races.  It isn't cannibalism if it's a different species.


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## Wik (Dec 15, 2007)

Remind me not to be the only human in your party, Slife.  Something tells me no one wants to be the Aarakocra - "tastes like chicken!"


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## VirgilCaine (Dec 15, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> A *beleaguered village in the wilderness* provides an evening of shelter for the heroes. While staying at the *local inn,*




Wow, that village must see a lot of travelers to have an inn.


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## Mighty Veil (Dec 15, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> 4th Edition?




That's funny. 

I sure feel like running a 1e game all of a sudden.


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## Freak of Nurture (Dec 16, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> IN early editions of the game, poisons were "if you fail, you die".  Later on, there were a variety of different poison types, but most still fall into the "Death" category.
> 
> Just trying to point out that, in earlier editions of the game, poison was much more likely to kill you.




1e had 3 types that kill, and 6 that didn't
2e had 4 types that kill, and 12 that didn't
Most didn't fall into the "Death category".  Try knowing what you are talking about.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 16, 2007)

Freak of Nurture said:
			
		

> 1e had 3 types that kill, and 6 that didn't
> 2e had 4 types that kill, and 12 that didn't
> Most didn't fall into the "Death category".  Try knowing what you are talking about.



But the only ones you saw, with rare exception - even in 'official' adventures, were the ones that if you failed your save you died. Take a look through old adventures and old Dungeon magazines, you will be astounded at how seldom you see anything but 'save or die' poisons.

This was pretty much true up until 3e.

If you are going to be rude then try knowing what your talking about - it will work better in the long run.

The Auld Grump, an option that is never used does not count.


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## Slife (Dec 16, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> But the only ones you saw, with rare exception - even in 'official' adventures, were the ones that if you failed your save you died. Take a look through old adventures and old Dungeon magazines, you will be astounded at how seldom you see anything but 'save or die' poisons.
> 
> This was pretty much true up until 3e.
> 
> ...



In that case, 1e and 2e had almost no save-or die poisons.  Virtually none whatsoever.


Slife, arguing about personal experiences gets us nowhere since we all have different ones.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 16, 2007)

Slife said:
			
		

> In that case, 1e and 2e had almost no save-or die poisons.  Virtually none whatsoever.
> 
> 
> Slife, arguing about personal experiences gets us nowhere since we all have different ones.



Excuse me? Did you bother reading any of the 1e and 2e adventures? I am not speaking of *personal* experience, but rather what TSR* published*. They very seldom had anything but 'save or die' poisons. I can back up my claim by copying and pasting out of published adventures - can you? If you chose not to use them as written (which, by the way, is a _good_ thing - I will not claim otherwise) then all well and good - but as published it was pretty much always lethal poisons, even at very low levels. And thieves, the folks most likely to encounter poison, had rather poor saves vs. the stuff....

The Auld Grump, it would have been nice if you had bothered reading what you quoted....


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## Fifth Element (Dec 16, 2007)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> Wow, that village must see a lot of travelers to have an inn.



This is D&D. There is _always_ an inn. It could be a hamlet of 20 people. There is an inn.


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## PhantomNarrator (Dec 16, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> . . .They find a secret door, slide it open, and find the chest.  The Rogue takes 20 on his search check, and finds the trap.




Funny enough, but the rogue cannot take 20 on a roll that involves danger of any kind.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 16, 2007)

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> This is D&D. There is _always_ an inn. It could be a hamlet of 20 people. There is an inn.



And there is always a stranger, dressed in black*, with tips on where to find the dungeon.... 

The Auld Grump
*Alternately dressed as a pirate if the village is on the coast.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 16, 2007)

PhantomNarrator said:
			
		

> Funny enough, but the rogue cannot take 20 on a roll that involves danger of any kind.



Which means, in this case, that he _can_ 'Take 20' on his Search - but he cannot do so on his Disable Device check. Searching (unless otherwise noted) is safe, disabling is not. Once the trap is disabled the rogue can then Take 20 on picking the lock....

I am not complaining about this, I actually rather like it this way. The team has a choice between fast and risky or taking their time (and maybe allowing the bad guys enough time to finish summoning Cthulhu or whatever).

The Auld Grump
*EDIT* From Sean K. Reynolds site [on Taking 20] - Search:
    Yes, because there is no penalty for failure (if you don't find what you're looking for, you're no worse off than if you had never looked in the first place, so there isn't a penalty). This means that you can take 20 when searching for something dangerous, like a trap, since searching doesn't make you any more likely to set off the trap than you would just by walking around (again, using the skill and failing does not put you in a worse position than not using the skill).


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## Delta (Dec 16, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> If the poison does 3d6 Con damage instead of 2d6, the Rogue is dead, just as in 1e.




Like another poster, I also disagree with this, but for a more specific reason. In 1E, poison just killed you with a failed save, period. In 3E, poison has specific effect types that have defined CR's (from Song & Silence, but can be extraopolated from the core prices). Only the most virulent and highly expensive poison in the game does 3d6 Con damage; there are certainly none that do 4d6 or 5d6.

Since this party is 1st level, they're most likely to encounter a low-level poison trap. My DMG has the CR 2 poison needle with Greenblood Oil, which does 1/1d2 Con. That's the most likely "suggested" poison trap at this level, and that's definitely not going to kill anybody.


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## Wik (Dec 16, 2007)

Delta said:
			
		

> Like another poster, I also disagree with this, but for a more specific reason. In 1E, poison just killed you with a failed save, period. In 3E, poison has specific effect types that have defined CR's (from Song & Silence, but can be extraopolated from the core prices). Only the most virulent and highly expensive poison in the game does 3d6 Con damage; there are certainly none that do 4d6 or 5d6.
> 
> Since this party is 1st level, they're most likely to encounter a low-level poison trap. My DMG has the CR 2 poison needle with Greenblood Oil, which does 1/1d2 Con. That's the most likely "suggested" poison trap at this level, and that's definitely not going to kill anybody.




Yeah, that's true.  Poisons in 3e are a LOT less deadly than they were in older editions.  Evne the most toxic of poisons, at 3d6, isn't gonna kill you 50% of the time.


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## Wik (Dec 16, 2007)

Freak of Nurture said:
			
		

> 1e had 3 types that kill, and 6 that didn't
> 2e had 4 types that kill, and 12 that didn't
> Most didn't fall into the "Death category".  Try knowing what you are talking about.




Fair enough.  It is true, that there were different kinds of poison.  However, as the Auld Grump pointed out, most monsters and adventures inflicted type F (that was the poison kind, right?).  

And many of the others were save or die types in a different form - paralysis or unconsciousness, or sleep... and I think there was even a Petrification one, as well.  So, yeah, poisons could be pretty harsh. 

In any case, both my personal experience, the RAW, and the poisons included in TSR published adventures tended to focus on death-dealing poisons.  And, in 3e, death-dealing poisons... aren't.  Which is something I'm very glad to see, truth be told.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 16, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  It is true, that there were different kinds of poison.  However, as the Auld Grump pointed out, most monsters and adventures inflicted type F (that was the poison kind, right?).
> 
> And many of the others were save or die types in a different form - paralysis or unconsciousness, or sleep... and I think there was even a Petrification one, as well.  So, yeah, poisons could be pretty harsh.
> 
> In any case, both my personal experience, the RAW, and the poisons included in TSR published adventures tended to focus on death-dealing poisons.  And, in 3e, death-dealing poisons... aren't.  Which is something I'm very glad to see, truth be told.



Adding secondary damage in 3.X also means that the Slow Poison spell actually does something now.... 
'Bob keels over dead after the giant scorpion stings him.' 
'I cast Slow Poison!' 
'Why? He's already dead, you don't get much slower than that....' 

The Auld Grump


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## Joshua Randall (Dec 16, 2007)

C.W.Richeson said:
			
		

> I guess that, no matter the edition, it's still D&D to me.



Doesn't Billy Joel have a song about that?


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## Freak of Nurture (Dec 16, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> But the only ones you saw, with rare exception - even in 'official' adventures, were the ones that if you failed your save you died. Take a look through old adventures and old Dungeon magazines, you will be astounded at how seldom you see anything but 'save or die' poisons.
> 
> This was pretty much true up until 3e.
> 
> ...




I've been running 1&2e adventures since they were published and no I don't have stats handy on the proportion of poison types in every adventure ever published, and neither do you.  I just know offhand about the 70 or so adventures I have run several times and can run at the drop of a hat.  In those, the save or die poisons are almost all at higher levels when the party can deal with the death fairly easily.

I wasn't trying to be rude, btw.  I just get tired of people slamming older editions without even understanding them.  For example:
"Inside the chest is a +1 longsword. Everyone in the group looks at it, and decides it's useless - the fighter is proficient in axes, the halfling is too small, and the elf is proficient in short swords ("It's more in character!"). Since the item cannot be sold, the PCs leave it in the chest. But, hey, at least they found the red ruby!"

This is just silly.  They might not know it's a magical sword, but it is a finely made weapon which would be taken either way.  I have no idea how he thought it couldn't be sold.  The fighter or elf might not be proficient in it, but there is a very high chance at least one of them will be in a few levels.  And even if they weren't they would only have a -1 to hit with it.  Once they find out it's a +1 sword (via a 1st level spell) one of them would keep it for use on special monsters only hit by magic weapons.


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## Wik (Dec 16, 2007)

You know, if you're gonna slam me for not "understanding" the game, you should get your own rules quotations correct.  In 2e, not being proficient in a weapon is AT LEAST a -2 penalty (I found this out by digging out my books... I haven't played 2e in about eight years, so I can understand someone else not being crystal clear on things - some people, I guess, cannot).

Just though I'd mention that.

Now, the point of this thread wasn't to be wholly accurate - I don't think any of us have actually run the "Go into dungeon, kill some goblins, go home" adventure without even a few twists.  Mostly, though, I just wanted to point out how the dynamics of the game led to different focuses that occur IN game.

And, in my experience, 1)  Poisons in earlier games were lethal, and (if you were like me) a DM would often switch them out for less-violent poisons.  But there were an awful number of type F poisons out there, even at lower levels.  It really sucks.  

2)  treasure changed from edition to edition.  In all editions but 2e, you can pretty much get away with rolling a random weapon type and giving that out as treasure;  in 3e, that means it might not mesh with someone's specialties, but in that case, it can be swapped out for cash later on.  In 2e, a game with a huge weapons list and a fairly small selection of weapons you can be proficient in (a 1st level fighter was probably proficient in three weapons, specializing in one... and I think at 20th level, he'd still know less then ten weapons!), unless you were skilled in longsword, random weapon determination kind of sucks.

(Fun story - in all our games, everyone made it a point to be proficient in a different set of weapons, but we set it up so that if our longsword specialist died, there was at least one other person in the group who knew how to use one).  

That's not a "slam" on the edition, by the way - just one of the pecularities that coloured the play experience.  Just like how in 3e you tend to think more about the mechanics of your character than you do in BECMI or 2e, or how (if my games are any indication) you have a much higher chance of your character having a "sir" in front of his name if you are playing 1e.


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## Spatula (Dec 16, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> 2)  treasure changed from edition to edition.  In all editions but 2e, you can pretty much get away with rolling a random weapon type and giving that out as treasure;  in 3e, that means it might not mesh with someone's specialties



To be fair, that started (AD&D-wise) with Unearthed Arcana, back during the 1e days, which introduced weapon specialization, double weapon specialization, triple weapon specialization...  Of course back then, the longsword was the best 1-handed weapon, and as a result that's what players (and the treasure tables) tended to focus on.  So... maybe in 3e it is more likely a random treasure won't mesh with the party, since most weapons are fairly equal, and choosing something other than longsword or 2H sword isn't stupid.  But the source of that problem goes way back.


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## Wik (Dec 16, 2007)

Yeah, absolutely.  Though, I didn`t really want to look beyond the core books for this - and core 1e has no non-weapon proficiencies, and I think it lacks weapon proficiencies (I know it lacks specialization rules).  

Once we go beyond core, I have to start complaining about the weird BECMI classes that got introduced, attack ranks (is that what they were called), 1e UA oddities, 2e`s love for kits, kits, and more kits, not to mention the god-awful skills and powers expansions... and some of the power-creep to be found in feats (and if we let third party sources in on this, it gets even stranger!)

But let`s consider a scenario:  the PCs open up a chest, and find a weapon they`ve never seen before.  Let`s say it`s a Ranseur, or something like that.

BECMI:  The fighter, elf or dwarf picks it up and can use it.  The cleric can`t because it inflicts stabbing, the wizard can`t because it`s not on his list, and halfling can`t because it`s too big.  Easy enough.

1e (prior to UA):  Pretty much the same goes.  Someone picks it up, and has fun with it.

2e:  Odds are, no one has the item, and since there are no rules for selling items (and it seems to be suggested in the DMG that selling items is WRONG!), the item has little worth.  So, the DM fudges things - which is what 2e is about, apparently - and changes the weapon type.  Not a big deal, but still.

3e:  The weapon is a martial weapon, meaning a lot of different classes can use it.  No one has Weapon Focus in it, of course, but that`s not going to stop the fighter from using it, at least until he gets a weapon he`s specialized in (and then he`lll just sell the silly thing, and use the extra money to buy some nice items).  Easy fix.

IN this particular case, random weapon determination only truly sucks if you`re playing 2e.  One of the pecularities of the system, that you`ll see reflected in the adventures.


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## Agamon (Dec 16, 2007)

Good read, Wik.  Quite apt, poison niggles or no, lol.


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## Wik (Dec 16, 2007)

Agamon said:
			
		

> Good read, Wik.  Quite apt, poison niggles or no, lol.




Glad you liked it.  You know, I think I should make a post that actually outlines an adventure from each "era" of D&D.  But that would more show how I've aged and changed as a gamer, rather than highlighting any real "system" quirks.


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## VirgilCaine (Dec 16, 2007)

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> This is D&D. There is _always_ an inn. It could be a hamlet of 20 people. There is an inn.




Not in my campaigns. 

Heroes/Villains might be gladly put up for the night in someone's home or more untrustworthy types might get someone's barn, but there won't be an inn in a place surrounded by wilderness (if there is, it'll be an empty wreck) or with 20 people (they'll wonder why you don't move on a ways up yonder and go to the inn in Mud Creek).


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## Freak of Nurture (Dec 16, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> You know, if you're gonna slam me for not "understanding" the game, you should get your own rules quotations correct.  In 2e, not being proficient in a weapon is AT LEAST a -2 penalty (I found this out by digging out my books... I haven't played 2e in about eight years, so I can understand someone else not being crystal clear on things - some people, I guess, cannot).
> 
> Just though I'd mention that.




Well, a warrior's nonproficiency penalty is -2.  It's a +1 sword, so -1 to hit.  I can understand you not being crystal clear on things since you haven't played in so long and have an obvious bias against it.

Just thought I'd mention that.

About your Ranseur example:
"2e: Odds are, no one has the item, and since there are no rules for selling items (and it seems to be suggested in the DMG that selling items is WRONG!), the item has little worth. So, the DM fudges things - which is what 2e is about, apparently - and changes the weapon type. Not a big deal, but still."

Another 2e slam.  The 2e DMG says nothing about selling items being WRONG as you put it.  I have no idea where you got that.  I don't know why anyone would need rules for selling some random weapon they found.  Maybe in 3.X they do.  Anyway, if 2e is all about fudging then previous editions would have to be even worse since there were more rules for everything in 2e.

It would actually go more like:  Odds are no one has proficiency in that weapon, but someone would take it and sell it at a weapon shop later or try it out with the nonproficiency penalty to see what kind of damage it does.  If they like it they can become proficient in it at some later time.


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## Wik (Dec 16, 2007)

I don't see how you think I'm slamming the game.  Where is my bias towards 2e coming from?  I have no more bias against 2e than I do against 1e, BECMI, or 3e.  They've all been a lot of fun for me over the years.  

And I still think you're off on the weapons.  For starters, in 1e, weapons had prices, making it easier to sell them off.  If I recall, those prices were taken out in 2e, because the designers didn't want to encourage "magic item shops".  I could be wrong there, but I don't remember item prices being in the DMG (whereas they are in the 1e DMG... and BECMI too, I think).  So, in 2e, there was either a lot of "guestimmation" on how much you could sell that +1 Ranseur for, or holding on to it in case you came across a monster that could only be hit by +1 or better weapons (a huge beef of mine, and one I'm glad they nerfed in 3e, though they got close with 2e).  

A 1st level group finds a +1 ranseur and no one's proficient.  They wait for three levels, and gain proficiency in it... only to pick up a better weapon down the road.  My experience with 2e is it's much more likely for GMs to "seed" their treasures with weapons appropriate to the PC party.  Granted, this is good GMing, and it happens in all editions... but in 2e, it's almost necessary to keep the party strong.  You can't rely on the random tables.
A quirk of the edition - not a "Slam". 

As far as I know, 2e is the only edition that makes selling items hazy, and more in the DM's domain.  There's a lot less guidelines.  I could be wrong on this, though - I don't remember BECMI's system enough to be sure. 

Ah, well.  If you're set on thinking I'm attackign your favourite edition of the game, nothing I'm gonna say will change that.  Suffice it to say that, well - I had no intention of really attacking any edition.  Because that's silly.  I just think it's funny how certain artefacts of the systems can affect the play experience.

Imagine playing the D&D encounter with the Shadowrun rules!  Or Palladium Fantasy rules!  This could get really crazy.


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## VirgilCaine (Dec 16, 2007)

Freak of Nurture said:
			
		

> Anyway, if 2e is all about fudging then previous editions would have to be even worse since there were more rules for everything in 2e.




I've heard it said that in 2e there were more rules for everything--multiple, contradictory rules in some cases--and I've heard it said of 2e there was a total or near-total lack of usable information in the DMG, except for the treasure and combat tables. 

So it ended up there was a lot of DM Fiat in 2e.


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## Herobizkit (Dec 16, 2007)

Khuxan said:
			
		

> Agreed. If you cut out the snark and the obvious fallacies (for example, the ritual healing circles and excessive magical items)...



... and I thought we were still talking about 3rd edition, 'cuz that's how *I* run it.  

Props to Ryan for the nod to beloved Save Points.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 16, 2007)

Freak of Nurture said:
			
		

> I've been running 1&2e adventures since they were published and no I don't have stats handy on the proportion of poison types in every adventure ever published, and neither do you.  I just know offhand about the 70 or so adventures I have run several times and can run at the drop of a hat.  In those, the save or die poisons are almost all at higher levels when the party can deal with the death fairly easily.



You make an assumption that I am somehow 'slamming' AD&D when I state (yes, state, not infer, imply, or suggest) that while there may have been rules for non-lethal poisons they were by and large ignored.

This assumption is false. I have most of the old 1e adventures, going back to the early eighties, and a few OD&D (from Judges Guild - JG made more stuff or the original edition of the game than TSR) that go back to the late seventies. The JG are mostly print, the TSR are mostly PDF at this point.

The fact that I have them at all should tell you that I liked first edition. So, yes, I can pretty much say that 'Save or Die' was the norm, even in low level adventures, including the first novice adventure 'Village of Hommlet'. I am not slamming the game - that was just the way it was played back then. Characters died. It was even the point of some of the more notorious adventures Tomb of Horrors being the most often mentioned. The game also tended to be a lot more generous with magic items.

So do not tell me what I can know or not know. I get angry when somebody who apparently does not know a hawk from a handsaw* tries correcting me. With most of them available as PDFs it is actually pretty darned easy to go through them. They tend to be a lot shorter than current adventures. (Though I would love it if the PDFs had been read with OCR, so that I could use Search.)

Games being lethal was part of the older editions - for good or ill. I can point out plenty of people who think that the game is now too 'player friendly'. It is not 'slamming' to say that the earlier editions had a more lethal paradigm than current. It is not even 'slamming' to point out that the poison rules that were present were not, for the most part, used. Save or die was simple, and easy to remember.

AD&D had a lot of rules that no one - even Gary Gygax - used. If I wanted to slam AD&D I would look no further than the unarmed combat rules.

I do not have all that many 2nd edition adventures, the adventures for that edition suffered from too much railroading to be all that great, in my opinion. On the flip side, I actually liked the three ring binder monstrous manuals, and felt that some great settings came out at that time. But if there is any edition that I would 'slam' it would be second, and that only in its later years.

The Auld Grump, who does know a hawk from a handsaw when the wind is southerly....

* The reference is to madness (Hamlet) rather than stupidity. I don't know about you, but I would rather be thought insane than dull....


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## trollwad (Dec 16, 2007)

This is a fantastically funny thread.

The Auld Grump is mostly right about poisons being mostly of the save vs. die variety in 1e modules.  However, a notable exception is the (otherwise excellent) Saltmarsh series.  More of the poisons were of the save or not very nice variety!  Silly soft Brits


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## Numion (Dec 16, 2007)

TheAuldGrump said:
			
		

> Games being lethal was part of the older editions - for good or ill. I can point out plenty of people who think that the game is now too 'player friendly'. It is not 'slamming' to say that the earlier editions had a more lethal paradigm than current. .




I've found 3E much more lethal than the previous editions. I mean, 30+ PC deaths in RttToEE. While that adventure is particaularly deadly, I've had little problem racking up the bodycount in 3E. 1E and BD&D were different - much less PC deaths. Yes, there was the occassional poison death, but poison deaths were always rare.

It's got to do with offense outpacing defense in 3E. I don't know if that's a good thing or bad, but the end result is that a troll can drop a PC in one round. 1E and those had monsters with small damage bonuses - now it's a big STR bonus to damage + rend.

On the other had I can recall 1 PC who died in 1E to poison, and 1 in 3E. So it was more common in 1E to die of poison, since so much less PCs died in 1E.


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## howandwhy99 (Dec 16, 2007)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Original D&D (1974):


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 16, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> I've found 3E much more lethal than the previous editions. I mean, 30+ PC deaths in RttToEE. While that adventure is particaularly deadly, I've had little problem racking up the bodycount in 3E. 1E and BD&D were different - much less PC deaths. Yes, there was the occassional poison death, but poison deaths were always rare.
> 
> It's got to do with offense outpacing defense in 3E. I don't know if that's a good thing or bad, but the end result is that a troll can drop a PC in one round. 1E and those had monsters with small damage bonuses - now it's a big STR bonus to damage + rend.
> 
> On the other had I can recall 1 PC who died in 1E to poison, and 1 in 3E. So it was more common in 1E to die of poison, since so much less PCs died in 1E.



Hmmm, it was pretty much the other way around for me - the death of at least one character per adventure - straight out of the published module, seemed to be the norm. My own adventures tended to be a good deal less lethal (what can I say, I'm a wuss  ) but still fell into a more lethal range than 3.X.

Part may have been that until 2nd edition I did not see all that many retreats - folks seemed willing to press on just a little too far, and then roll up new characters as needed. They may have been less attached to the characters, looking back it was usually the same players rolling up new characters most of the time.

I lost track of TPKs under AD&D 1&2. I have had two under 3.X - one of which still seems more like party suicide. And one near TPK where all but one of the characters decided to swim what amounted to the Rhine in Spring flood. The one who decided against it was the only one with a Swim skill.... I think that he was also the only player who knew how to swim.



			
				trollwad said:
			
		

> This is a fantastically funny thread.
> 
> The Auld Grump is mostly right about poisons being mostly of the save vs. die variety in 1e modules. However, a notable exception is the (otherwise excellent) Saltmarsh series. More of the poisons were of the save or not very nice variety! Silly soft Brits



Hey, don't go dissing Saltmarsh! I _liked_ that adventure series!

The Auld Grump, oh, wait - the wind is northerly....


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## Lanefan (Dec 16, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> I've found 3E much more lethal than the previous editions. I mean, 30+ PC deaths in RttToEE. While that adventure is particaularly deadly, I've had little problem racking up the bodycount in 3E. 1E and BD&D were different - much less PC deaths. Yes, there was the occassional poison death, but poison deaths were always rare.
> 
> It's got to do with offense outpacing defense in 3E. I don't know if that's a good thing or bad, but the end result is that a troll can drop a PC in one round. 1E and those had monsters with small damage bonuses - now it's a big STR bonus to damage + rend.
> 
> On the other had I can recall 1 PC who died in 1E to poison, and 1 in 3E. So it was more common in 1E to die of poison, since so much less PCs died in 1E.



I'm going to go out on a short limb here and suggest you're both right.

1e is *way* deadlier at the very low (1-4) levels.  3e is deadlier at high (12-15+) levels.

In 1e, the power curve of the PCs is steeper than the power curve of their opponents; while the opponents have the advantage early on, that advantage swings to the PCs as the party gains in level.  By high-ish level, about the only thing that can take out a PC is save-or-die, and their saves are pretty darn good (while at very low level they're generally pathetic).

In 3e, the opposition roughly matches the PCs more closely over a greater level range, meaning low-level encounters and high-level encounters have about the same degree of risk (assuming in all cases and editions, competent DMing).  A high-level PC *can* still die from straight damage, as well as save-or-die, and the saves don't go up as fast.

I'm not sure we've had a death-by-poison in our 3e game yet.  We sure have in the much-newer 1e game, though; and I was on the wrong end of it.

Lanefan


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 17, 2007)

Lanefan said:
			
		

> I'm going to go out on a short limb here and suggest you're both right.
> 
> 1e is *way* deadlier at the very low (1-4) levels.  3e is deadlier at high (12-15+) levels.
> 
> ...



This may well be true - I have run campaigns to much higher levels under 3.X than I did under AD&D. Even around 10-12th level in AD&D it was more often traps that did the adventurers in, rather than the monsters, even the dragon started flaggin' around that level. 3.X seems to remain about as dangerous across the board, rather than starting lethal and becoming easier.

I have had a death-by-poison in the game, poisons that attack con can be lethal very easily.

The Auld Grump


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## Wik (Dec 17, 2007)

You know, ironically, the only poison death I remember seeing is in 3e.  The 10th level flying Phanaton Warmage (hey, we didn't see THOSE too often in earlier editions, now did we?) was fighting some 4th level spear-chuckers.  The phanaton took just a little bit of damage, gliding over the enemies in slow circles, casting spells.  Then it failed two saves against con-poison, it's con dropped by six points (which wound up being 4 hit points per level), dropping it to the negatives.  And then, being unconscious, it fell.  Splat.

Now, the REASON that was our only "Death by poison" was because as a GM in earlier editions, I avoided all poisons but sleep poisons, and the Thri-Kreen poison, because Dark Sun rocks.  So no one ever had a chance to die from it.


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## Hussar (Dec 17, 2007)

Lanefan said:
			
		

> I'm going to go out on a short limb here and suggest you're both right.
> 
> 1e is *way* deadlier at the very low (1-4) levels.  3e is deadlier at high (12-15+) levels.
> 
> ...




Wow, just for the novelty of it....

I agree 100% with Lanefan.


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## TheAuldGrump (Dec 17, 2007)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Wow, just for the novelty of it....
> 
> I agree 100% with Lanefan.



How *dare* you agree with the person who is being reasonable?!!! This is the _internet!_ 

The Auld Grump, who was more upset with being accused of 'slamming' first edition than anything else....


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## Orius (Dec 17, 2007)

An amusing breakdown.  The 3e version seems a bit snarkier than the others, but in general, it comes off as a fairly accurate representation of how the game was played.  In the old days, the M-U simply knocked everything out with _sleep_ and the rest of the party slaughtered them.  Leaders just tacked on a few extra HD.  There were lots of save or die traps to do in the thief.  

The 2e version might have come off better if it was set in the Realms.  Every other adventure in 2e was in the Realms.   And yeah, there was tons of extra useless flavor that made little difference (like the part about the secret passage; how is that ever going to matter to the players?).  And the bit about weapon specialization was spot on. The tables skewed toward longsword, but IME, nobody use longswords in 2e, many fighters preferred bastard swords instead, probably because it could be used both one handed and two handed, and had different damage potentials like that.



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  It is true, that there were different kinds of poison.  However, as the Auld Grump pointed out, most monsters and adventures inflicted type F (that was the poison kind, right?).
> 
> And many of the others were save or die types in a different form - paralysis or unconsciousness, or sleep... and I think there was even a Petrification one, as well.  So, yeah, poisons could be pretty harsh.
> 
> In any case, both my personal experience, the RAW, and the poisons included in TSR published adventures tended to focus on death-dealing poisons.  And, in 3e, death-dealing poisons... aren't.  Which is something I'm very glad to see, truth be told.




I know I'm jumping in late here, but yeah Type F poison (inflicted by wyverns, among other things from what I remember), was set up as very common, and it was definitely save or die.  I don't know the 1e poison mechanics, but I remember 2e vaguely.  They were divided into 3 categories, Ingested, Injected, and Contact, and F was an Injected save or die.  A LOT of monsters that had posion attacks had Type F.  



			
				Fifth Element said:
			
		

> This is D&D. There is _always_ an inn.




I couldn't have said it better.  



			
				VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> I've heard it said that in 2e there were more rules for everything--multiple, contradictory rules in some cases--and I've heard it said of 2e there was a total or near-total lack of usable information in the DMG, except for the treasure and combat tables.
> 
> So it ended up there was a lot of DM Fiat in 2e.




The biggest problem with 2e was the fact that it was intended for "intermediate and expert" players from the start (it says that right on the covers of the original 2e PHB and DMG).  The idea was for newbies to get started with BECMI or the Rules Cyclopedia, then move up to AD&D.  However, by the time 2e reached it's midpoint, the old Basic game had pretty much died out, and AD&D was all that was left.  So the DMG was intended for players who learned to DM through BD&D, and wasn't that helpful for novice DMs.  It didn't try to teach DMs how to DM, it just said, "go read Dragon, there's lots of advice in there".  At least while Monte Cook's 3e DMG admitted that it was difficult to teach DMing, it made an attempt to offer pointers to both novice and experienced DMs.

To be fair, after the death of BD&D, the D&D team put out at least 3 introductory products intended to help newer players get into the game, and the revised DMG does steer new DMs towards the first such product, but small introductory boxed sets really didn't have the scope of the old Basic game.



			
				Wik said:
			
		

> Once we go beyond core, I have to start complaining about the weird BECMI classes that got introduced, attack ranks (is that what they were called), 1e UA oddities, 2e`s love for kits, kits, and more kits, not to mention the god-awful skills and powers expansions... and some of the power-creep to be found in feats (and if we let third party sources in on this, it gets even stranger!)




Well, I can't speak for the early stuff, but yes 2e kits could get off the wall.  They weren't bad early on, and Skills and Powers made a decent attempt at standarizing the more common kits, but the later Complete Books had some really unbalanced ones (*cough* Bladesinger).  Skills and Powers had some good ideas, like the proficiency system (sort of a proto-3e skill system), and revamped the psionics system, but the biggest problem was the subabilities.  Another problems is that some of that 2e stuff was freelanced and there wasn't any sort of central design team trying to keep things relatively balanced.

I do prefer the 3e rules, but honestly, I've been kind of out of the loop with how the game developed ever since the 3.5 revision; my rulebooks are all 3.0 stuff.   



> But let`s consider a scenario:  the PCs open up a chest, and find a weapon they`ve never seen before.  Let`s say it`s a Ranseur, or something like that.
> 
> BECMI:  The fighter, elf or dwarf picks it up and can use it.  The cleric can`t because it inflicts stabbing, the wizard can`t because it`s not on his list, and halfling can`t because it`s too big.  Easy enough.
> 
> ...




Yeah, the 2e weapon proficiency rules were very restrictive.  Basically, a DM if he knew what he was doing would simply swap out a weapon no one was proficient with with something more useful.  Otherwise the party would be stuck with it if the DM was either inexperienced, or was just a mean rat bastard.  The weapon rules in 3e did fix that with the Simple, Martial, and Exotic weapons, it went back a bit to the Fighter being able to use most weapons, and Exotic weapons also helped keep weird weapon choices under control IME.


----------



## Melan (Dec 17, 2007)

Snarking aside, the "D&D gameplay fan fiction" in this thread is pure gold, all five of them. I particularly liked RangerWickett's example - capturing the tone of a game that hasn't even been released yet so perfectly has to be worth a few extra points.   

Also, for the record, 2d6 Constitution poison is freaking deadly in 3e. Greenblood oil is a bad joke (and is probably better off if it is replaced by some regular hp-dealing variety), but 2d6 Con can kill very, very effectively. The scenario may also have played out slightly differently if there was an ogre with those goblins - and ogres are _disturbingly_ common in low level 3e adventures if you go by the standard encounter charts. What's even scarier, an ogre can one-shot most 1st or 2nd level characters. When we were playing low level 3e, ogres were responsible for almost as many PC casualties than all other monster types combined. Be careful with the ogres, kids!


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## JoeGKushner (Dec 17, 2007)

Now we need to see how this would play out in other game systems...

Fantasy Hero

Rolemaster

Burning wheel

Elric/BRP/Runequest

Talislanta 4th ed

Go to town people!


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## mhensley (Dec 17, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Now we need to see how this would play out in other game systems...
> 
> Fantasy Hero
> 
> ...




We would, but there are no adventures made for these games.


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## Remus Lupin (Dec 17, 2007)

> The fighter's player calls his friend Joe who has a dwarf character and tells him "we're about to roust a big group of goblins, want in?" to which Joe replies "I'd love to but I've got a term-paper due in the morning that I need to finish. Kick some ass for me and leave a copy of your map behind so if you all get wiped out Fred and I can at least follow in your tracks in this Saturday's game and finish 'em off."




FIRST EDITION
The fighter's player calls his friend Joe who has a dwarf character and tells him "we're about to roust a big group of goblins, want in?" to which Joe replies "I'd love to but I've got a a shift at Burger King tonight, and I really need the money. Kick some ass for me and leave a copy of your map behind so if you all get wiped out Fred and I can at least follow in your tracks in this Saturday's game and finish 'em off."

SECOND EDITION
The fighter's player calls his friend Joe who has a dwarf character and tells him "we're about to roust a big group of goblins, want in?" to which Joe replies "I'd love to but I've got an early meeting at work tomorrow. Kick some ass for me and leave a copy of your map behind so if you all get wiped out Fred and I can at least follow in your tracks in this Saturday's game and finish 'em off."

THIRD EDITION
The fighter's player calls his friend Joe who has a dwarf character and tells him "we're about to roust a big group of goblins, want in?" to which Joe replies "I'd love to but my kids are down with the flu and my wife will kill me if I leave. Kick some ass for me and leave a copy of your map behind so if you all get wiped out Fred and I can at least follow in your tracks in this Saturday's game and finish 'em off."


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## Thornir Alekeg (Dec 17, 2007)

Remus Lupin said:
			
		

> FIRST EDITION
> The fighter's player calls his friend Joe who has a dwarf character and tells him "we're about to roust a big group of goblins, want in?" to which Joe replies "I'd love to but I've got a a shift at Burger King tonight, and I really need the money. Kick some ass for me and leave a copy of your map behind so if you all get wiped out Fred and I can at least follow in your tracks in this Saturday's game and finish 'em off."
> 
> SECOND EDITION
> ...



 I think I need to get a restraining order against Remus Lupin since he obviously has been stalking me for years.


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## Lorthanoth (Dec 17, 2007)

My own quick version for Elric!

The party have heard of the fabled Tower of Daerd'k'leren, a sorcerer of fell repute who was aligned with Chaos. To guide them to the site they have an ugly but jolly fellow called Joran Crysthan. 

He will not enter the tower but with a merry wink, he says that he will see the adventurers in the future. When the characters turn to look for him, he has vanished without a trace.

They enter the tower and are confronted by horribly deformed monkey-people of Chaos. After a tense fight in which every character nearly dies, and the sorcerer's magic doesn't work due to the Chaotic nature of their opponents, the strange beings eventually die and fade into a foul-smelling green paste. The leader of these beings was a demon, bigger and more chaotic than the rest.

They search the rooms of the tower and find obscure books with in-joke references to the real world. They find a chest and through DM fiat the thieving character becomes possessed by the sword inside and proceeds to have his Chaos alignment score ratchet up to the hundreds. The other characters find a gem that Joran gave them. Placing it on th affected character exorcises the demona and places it in the gem. 

Not much richer or more wiser, they make their way back to town.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 17, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Note that your own examples show that sleep was more powerful in earlier editions, so not all PC powers have increased.




Yep. It was the 'Magic Missle/Mage Armor' of it's day. It was demonstratably so much better than any other spell of it's level that you were an idiot if you didn't take it if you had the choice, or didn't do everything in your power to get it ASAP. The only drawback was that you'd occassionally get your own party members in the area of effect.


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## Grog (Dec 17, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> 1E
> 
> Along the way to the abandoned monastery complex, the PCs encouter a hermit, who suggests that he accompany the PCs on their journey.  They decide it is best that he do so, since he obviously knows the way there.
> 
> ...




Actually, you forgot one thing in your 1E description:

After the fight with the Guide, the Chaotic Evil PC backstabs the fighter again and kills him (he was actually playing an assassin, and not a fighter who just happened to favor leather armor), finishes off the wizard, and is about to make off with the red ruby and the +1 longsword when the remaining party members just barely manage to finish him off. After the brawl that breaks out among the players is over, half of them roll up new characters, and the Chaotic Evil PCs player is forced to play a Lawful Good character this time.


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## Fifth Element (Dec 17, 2007)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> Not in my campaigns.
> 
> Heroes/Villains might be gladly put up for the night in someone's home or more untrustworthy types might get someone's barn, but there won't be an inn in a place surrounded by wilderness (if there is, it'll be an empty wreck) or with 20 people (they'll wonder why you don't move on a ways up yonder and go to the inn in Mud Creek).



That's cool, just as long as you realize you're not actually playing D&D if there's no inn.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 17, 2007)

*GURPS*

The group, a human healer who served in the recent wars, a cocky elven wizard who has escaped from his cruel master and is eager to see the world, a shifty-eyed goblin who claims to be a mining expert, and a noblewoman who has returned from her tour of fencing schools with a thirst for low company and high adventure gather in an inn. Sela the noblewoman has brought them together to discuss retrieving a family heirloom that an ancestor had buried with him. It will help her restore her family to their rightful place, and she will make sure the rest are richly rewarded.

Journeying to the monestary, they encounter a crippled priest of that faith outside the gates who says he served in the temple for many years. Sela questions him and finds that her ancestor is buried in the deepest part of the catacombs. Inside the ruins, the party encounters a group of 8 feral goblins armed with knives. Initially hostile, they become neutral when they see a kinsman with the group and because Thandrus the healer can speak their tongue. A round or two of negotiations and they might even help the party! When Whisperwing the elf says that they plan to raid the catacombs, though, the goblins turn hostlie again because they view the catacombs as a holy place and attack!

The battle takes about 30 minutes; eight goblins, well armed, are more than a match for the party since they have a numeric advantage. Thandrus the healer didn't put much at all into any combat skills, so Sela leaps to his defense and blocks three of the goblins from getting to him. Thandrus, however, is an excellent healer and keeps Sela's wounds from becoming too bad. She criticals and kills a goblin, then executes a special defense maneuver and gets an advantageous strike on the next goblin, also killing it. One goblin gets really lucky with his knife but her ability to parry turns aside the knife; the leader steps up to deal with her and they trade blows back and forth, each seeking the advantage. Whisperwing is an idiot but he's a very, very skilled idiot with a couple of spells - so skilled that they cost him no mana whatsoever. He zaps the leader a couple of times; he goes unconscious and Sela finishes him off. The party is heavily damaged, and Thandrus spends much of his fatigue healing the group. He almost kills the goblin when he critically fails a healing spell skill roll. Once he's done, he can barely stand. Sela still has a wound to the leg, where she didn't have much armor at all.

The goblin and Thandrus cooperate to search the catacombs; Sela also helps with this since all of them have good perception skills. Once they find the locked door, they're stymied. None of them ever had to learn to pick locks, but Sela and Thandus manage to use their default skill to jimmy the doorway open and they're inside. The stone sarcophagus is a trap! Shoving the lid open, the goblin sets off a poisoned arrow trap! It rolls a critical hit to the head and kills him instantly, the poison on it just adding insult to injury. They find Sela's heirloom: an enormous ruby. It is also a powerful source of magic, and with it's extra strength to draw upon, Thandus finishes healing the group to full strength. He's not quite learned enough to ressurect Thandus; they take his body along in hopes they can later, but it's unlikely. There's no-one in the area skilled enough to risk such a complex spell and it will be many months of adventuring before Thandus has enough XP to purchase that skill, assuming he improves nothing else at all. He'll learn it way before Sela improves her DEX stat, though... 

Good thing they're healed, too! As they come out of the catacombs, the 'priest' reveals himself as a rival to Sela's family and demands the ruby for their lives. He has six chainmail-and-spear soldiers behind him. There's no way they could win such a fight. Sela reluctantly hands over the prize and beckons the party to run. She smiles, though: the illusion spell she learned from her grandmother won't last long and they had best be long departed when the 'priest' discovers the trick!


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## Satori (Dec 17, 2007)

*RIFTS*

GreatMaw the Horned Dragon Pup, Dances-With-Faeries the Ley Line Walker, Spork the renegade Juicer, and X98012z10v2.89 the full conversion Borg set out to find a new location to battle the Coalition from.  

While the GM planned to play out the discovery of a hidden network of tunnels underneath an abandoned orphanage within the slums of Chi-Town, creating characters took 7 hours of game time.  To compensate, the GM ad-libs the discovery of the tunnels in a few minutes and calls the evening to a close.

Next session, the group attempts to find a guide for the tunnels...but the presence of a huge dragonling scares everyone away.  The dragon polymorphs itno a human, and the group finally manages to convince a former resident of the orphanage to guide them into the tunnels.

On their way to the orphanage, the Juicer gets bored and heads to the nearest slummy bar, the Borg decides he wants to visit a nearby chop shop for an upgrade, and the Ley Line Walker wanders towards a Nexus point several miles away.  The dragon stays with the guide.

Meanwhile, the Juicer has a serious case of rhoid rage while watching some exotic dancers and descends into a blood-crazed killing frenzy.  The Ley Line Walker wanders into a Coalition patrol and is promptly on the run from Psi-Stalkers and Dogboys while the Borg's body rejects the upgrade, leaving him with only one functioning arm.  The dragon still waits with the guide.

All the side adventuring takes the entire session, so the GM calls the session to a close again.

Next session, the Juicer stands on top of a pile of bodies while the tavern blazes uncontrollably.  The Ley Line Walker exhausts all of his magic trying to evade the Coalition, then complains for several hours about how he's the only one without a front loaded class.  The Borg attempts to fix his inoperable arm, but fails the check miserably, thereby disabling his other arm.  The dragon's polymorph runs out, causing the former orphan/guide to panic and run.  

The dragon tries to catch the orphan/guide, but accidentally inflicts 1 MD...causing the orphan's body to split into two neat, symmetrical pieces. 

Seeing his plot falling apart, the GM directs the running Ley Line Walker into the path of the Borg...who happens to be next door to the blazing bar the Juicer's at...which also happens to be the same spot the dragon accidentally exploded their guide.

The heroes are united against a Coalition patrol decked out in MDC armor and MD weaponry.  

After a furious 1 round battle (that takes 45 minutes real time), the Ley Line Walker and the Juicer are dead after one MD frag, the Coalition has fled, and the Borg and dragon are left with full HP to find another orphan guide.

And so ends the third session.


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## Wik (Dec 17, 2007)

d6 Session:

Everyone shows up at the game, puts away their jackets, and orders pizza.  "hey, it's 30 minutes or less!"

The group - a swordmaster trying to find his missing master, a mysterious student of the arcane, a fanatical worshipper of the sun god, and a young woman with talents leaning in the way of the shadow - make their way towards a lone monastery that stands on the hill.

They come across a man who offers to be a guide, which they gratefully accept - especially after the guide mentions something about a missing master of the martial arts.  

When they get to the Monastery, they break in through a side door, and get into a massive fight against over a dozen goblins, as well as a goblin adept that fights viciously.  The adept raises his horn to his lips, and bellows out a call.

"Uh oh, better get out of here fast", the Roguish woman (who isn't actually a rogue - there are no classes in d6!  DUH!) says.  

After the goblins are dead, the group scrambles through the room, looking for that secret door that they know has to be here.  Somewhere.

Eventually the arcane student discovers it, with some careful manipulation of the rules on spellcraft ("Hey, it doesn't say here that I CAN'T use my perception spell to find secret doors!").  They find a chest, and the roguish woman searches for traps.  And everyone else does, as well, since it's based off an attribute, and everyone can attempt the skill.  Strangely, the priest discovers the trap.  The rogue opens the chest, and is easily able to dodge the needle trap.

Inside, they find the red ruby, and a longsword.  "It's, um, magical" the GM says, and ad-hoc decides that those using it get a +1 on all melee combat skill results when using the blade.  "Sweet!" the Mage says.  "My melee combat could use the boost!" And so he takes it.

They make a hasty retreat, knowing the goblins will swarm the monastery any second.

As they make their way out of the monastery, the pizza guy arrives.  

"Wow, you're early!" one player says.  

Everyone eats pizza, and now that the RP is out of the way, they all play Gamecube.


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## Voadam (Dec 17, 2007)

*Shdaowrun*

A troll street samurai, a dwarf bear shaman, an elven hermetic street wizard, and a human decker meet Mr. Johnson in a soycaf bar in the Redlands. They say "Hoi chummer." to each other then negotiate over how much Nguyen in credsticks for them to do the run into the goblinized (ork) squatter compound found tunneled into an old landfill site.

The party heads off and sneaks there way into the compound when they find a huge Communal living area with lots of orks. The street wizard and street samurai are hopped up on magical and cyber speed enhancers and get off several actions, hurling mana blasts and stun grenades before the squatters can react. The squatters prove extremely resilient and the shaman goes astral for a second returning quickly he screams "they're possessed by bugs spirits!" The kid gloves come off and the wetwork begins with the party desperately spending karma to end it quickly. The decker has a gun but is not that good with it and gets pretty torn up. The samurai fights with a submachine gun and a huge vibroblade axe in his other hand. After the orks are dispatched the shaman heals their wounds, leaving both him and the elf with non-lethal injuries from casting over their thresholds too much and rolling poorly on their dice rolls.

Spotting a keypass vault the decker jacks in and the rest of the party goes out for pizza while he is in cyberspace. Blue ice arises to protect the lock which he sleazes his way past to open the lock, however sophisticated black ice that looks like Mr. Johnson and is very scary now arises. The decker again tries to sleaze his way past but fails and takes real damage bleeding out of his eyes and grasping at his cyber jack plug in. He screams for somebody to disconnect him but they are still getting the pizza and he takes more lethal damage before he can unplug himself.

When the other players return the decker tells them what happens and that he thinks Mr. Johnson is doublecrossing them so they better get out quick or up their docwagon insurance.

Inside the vault they find an orichalcum monofilament sword with a spell fetish attached to it. The troll tries out the feel of the oversized handle in his hand. They take it and run before Mr. Johnson's corporate hit squad arrives to take them out.


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## Numion (Dec 17, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> *GURPS*
> 
> The group, a human healer who served in the recent wars, ....




*GURPS*

The group, a one-armed hunchbacked albino dwarf who's also a master of the broadsword, ....


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## trollwad (Dec 17, 2007)

This thread would be funnier and perhaps more apropos for a light hearted parody if you had the "right" characters for each edition.  In my experience at least every 1e party had at least one ranger, so it should have 2.  The 2e guys should have be kitted out and and have elves in the party (complete book of elves).  The 3e party should have a warforged, a pc with at least four classes etc.


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## The_Gneech (Dec 17, 2007)

*FANTASY HERO* (At least as I ran it...)

The heroes (a mercenary swordsman, his companion the street urchin on the run from the thieves' guild of the campaign's central Lankhmaresque city, and a vaguely American Indianish shapechanger who takes on the form of a vicious wolf during combat) have been searching for the urchin's lost father (who they've recently discovered is actually an ambassador from a nation across the sea) for some time now, and have finally worked out that he was captured by would-be revolutionaries who intend to use him as a hostage to trade for their own imprisoned leader.

In this instance, the lost father takes the place of the ruby, as the characters have got the same perfectly serviceable gear they started the campaign with a year ago and have no particular interest in chasing treasure.

After spending about 45 minutes RPing their various contacts among the underworld for information, they work out that the revolutionaries' headquarters is a manor house outside the city on a rocky cliff overlooking the sea. The grounds are too well-guarded to fight their way in -- the swordsman and the shapeshifter can probably take on two or three of the guards at once without too much difficulty, as the guards only hit on a 9-, but all it takes is one lucky hit to location 13 to take out a hero quickly. The heroes eventually decide to climb the cliff and sneak in the back, assuming the shapeshifter can make his EGO roll to overcome Psychological Limitation: Fear of Heights (Uncommon, Strong).

The shapeshifter, unfortunately, rolls an 18 and freezes up. The group is temporarily stymied, but the swordsman eventually carries him up the cliff blindfolded. The shapeshifter player has a good time having his character go spastic about it, entertaining everyone at the table, and gets a bonus +1 XP. At the top of the cliff they encounter a patrol of two thugs, which takes them two turns (24 seconds game time, 40 minutes real time) to defeat. That ends the evening's game session.

The next session begins at the top of the cliff; they all roll well on Stealth (everyone in the group having bought it up to 14- long ago) and manage to break in to the manor house without too much difficulty. In the great hall of the manor they come upon the revolutionaries' leader, his sorcerer lackey, three thugs, and the urchin's long-lost father! The big fight begins!

The heroes all have DEX of 15 or better and so go before the thugs -- but not the revolutionary leader, who has DEX 18. It turns out the swordsman and the revolutionary leader both have DEX 18, SPD 3, and so will be rolling off on every phase to see who goes first. The first turn, the swordsman wins and goes first. He half-moves towards the leader, putting all his combat levels on DCV, and yells "Surrender or die!" for a presence attack. Unfortunately, his PRE is only 13, giving him 2 1/2d6 ... not exactly world-shaking. He reserves the rest of his phase.

The revolutionary leader, with a PRE of 18, is totally unimpressed and laughs in the swordsman's face. He then gives a lengthy speech about how he will become the new king and that all who oppose him must die. Finally, he takes his actual turn, which is to draw his own sword and attack the swordsman using one of his Fencing Martial Art maneuvers. The swordsman uses his reserved half-phase to get in an attack first, but rolls a 17 and misses. The revolutionary leader needs a 13- to hit but rolls a 14 and also misses.

The shapeshifter changes into wolf form (half-phase) and runs over to the thugs (half-phase). The urchin attempts to Stealth over to her father in the confusion. None of the the thugs beat her Stealth skill with their PER rolls, so they don't notice. The sorcerer does, but has Psychological Limitation: Chauvinist and dismisses her as "only a woman". Instead, the sorcerer is more interested in the shapeshifter, and casts a mind blasting spell on him (4d6 EGO Attack). The shapeshifter takes 13 points of Stun-only damage, which is not enough to knock him out, but does equal his CON so he's stunned for the next round.

End of round one. Since the shapeshifter is the only one who's taken any damage, he's the only one who gets the post-segment-12 recovery.

Segment 3: The shapeshifter recovers from being stunned.

Segment 4: Swordsman and revolutionary leader trade blows. Urchin unties father. Sorcerer mind blasts again, but doesn't roll high enough.

Segment 6: The shapeshifter runs across to the sorcerer and bites him hard (d6+1 HKA), knocking out 1/3 of the sorcerer's BODY. One thug attacks shapeshifter, one thug attacks swordsman. Both miss.

Segment 8: Swordsman lands a solid blow on revolutionary leader (9 points of BODY), but it's partially absorbed by the revolutionary leader's DEF 4 armor. Still, 5 points of damage to a 13 BODY character is enough to hurt. Revolutionary leader, however, gives back as good as he gets, hitting the swordsman in location 3 (eyes), which is unarmored, and doing 4 points of BODY (doubled to 8). Swordsman has 15 total, so is now just under half. Urchin escorts father to the door, then comes back into room. Sorcerer mind blasts the shapechanger again, doing more STUN but not enough to actually affect him.

Segment 9: Shapeshifter attacks sorcerer, but misses.

Segment 12: Swordsman and revolutionary leader trade blows but both miss. Shapeshifter bites sorcerer again, leaving the sorcerer with only 2 points of BODY, and also stunning him. (How did the shapeshifter hit location 13, "vitals," with a bite? The world may never know.) Urchin attacks a thug, but misses. Sorcerer recovers from being stunned. One thug attacks the shapeshifter and hits, but only does 3 BODY and 9 STUN. The other thug misses the swordsman.

PS-12 recoveries for all wounded parties! Good thing for the shapeshifter, as he was running out of STUN.

Segment 3: Shapeshifter bites the sorcerer again, killing him.

Segment 4: Revolutionary leader attacks again and misses, but just barely. Swordsman, getting worried, does a Block maneuver to add to his DCV and insure that he will go first next phase. Urchin stabs thug, hurting him badly. Thug stabs urchin, hurting her badly. Other thug swings at the swordsman but cannot possibly hit his current DCV of 11.

Segment 6: Shapeshifter bites the thug attacking the urchin, and kills him.

Segment 8: Swordsman hits the revolutionary leader in location 5 (head) and rolls 6 points of damage, which is then doubled to 12 -- killing him. Urchin attacks remaining thug but misses. Remaining thug attacks swordsman and hits him for 5 points of damage, leaving the swordsman with only 2 points of BODY and a worried expression.

Segment 9: Shapeshifter attacks remaining thug but misses.

Segment 12: Swordsman attacks remaining thug and takes him down to 1 BODY. Shapeshifter then bites him on location 8 (arm), but that does the job and kills him. The GM describes in gory detail how the shapeshifter tears off the thug's arm, causing the thug to die from shock and loss of blood.

Four hours have passed. That ends the second game session. There is no such thing as a goblin, dwarf, or halfling, and elves are exclusively NPCs.

Next session -- the tearful reunion between the urchin and her father, and the details of his secret mission which made him abandon her in the first place...

-The Gneech


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## +5 Keyboard! (Dec 17, 2007)

Geez, man! Why's everyone spoiling for a fight in here?!
D&D (and other RPGs) gamers have got be the most cantankerous folks there are!


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## Wik (Dec 17, 2007)

+5 Keyboard! said:
			
		

> Geez, man! Why's everyone spoiling for a fight in here?!
> D&D (and other RPGs) gamers have got be the most cantankerous folks there are!




Yeah.  Some people really don't like it when I suggest that their prefferred eddition may have had "Flaws".  The funny thing is, I've been accused of slamming both 2e and 3e - even though those are both editions I have loved in my time.  The one edition I like the least - 1e - I haven't been accused of knocking!  Kind of funny.


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## trollwad (Dec 17, 2007)

As long as they are all being made of, it isnt an edition war


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## A Passing Maniac (Dec 17, 2007)

*Call of Cthulhu*

The investigators are sent a letter by their old friend and colleague Alberich Monk begging them for help in an ambiguous manner and requesting that they come to his mansion in a relatively isolated area of New England immediately.

Before reaching the mansion, they stop off in a small town called Ominouswood, where they learn that the nearby Monk mansion has been home to several disturbing incidents over the past few decades. They also meet a man named Finnaeus Winthrop, who offers to guide them to the Monk mansion. The party's professional psychologist realizes that Finnaeus seems a bit too eager to lead them on, but the party does nothing yet.

When they reach the Monk mansion, Finnaeus suddenly transforms into a squamous monstrosity of cyclopean proportions with forty mouths. The ex-police officer who happens to be an Irish immigrant and the canny woodsman and lumberjack attempt to fight this creature, but bullets and axe do little against the creature, and the two are devoured. The psychologist and his two remaining companions, a professor of chemistry (and secretly an anarchist bomb-maker) and an attractive young widow and dilettante who is skilled in horseback riding, fencing, loopholes in the Massachusetts penal code, and knowledge of supernatural phenomena, flee into the mansion.

Inside, in the living room, they are confronted by a single creature, a blend of fish, frog, and man that attacks them unarmed. The psychologist goes briefly mad and gibbers in fear in the corner, while the professor, who insists he came armed with a grenade, and the dilettante, who improvisationally uses a fire-poker to attack, manage to overcome the beast.

After the psychologist recovers, the three begin to explore the mansion. They find a concealed door behind a bookcase that reveals an underground lair, in which an altar to some unnameable alien god-thing and a small, padlocked iron chest is discovered. The psychologist turns out to be an expert lock-picker, as well, and opens the box. Within is a tome that the professor picks up; he flips through a few pages, then immediately goes psychotically insane and murders the psychologist before taking his own life.

The dilettante, still armed with a fire-poker, heads back upstairs, but is bludgeoned to death by the reanimated corpse of Alberich Monk.

A week later, another group of five arrive at the Monk mansion: the ex-cop's old partner, the lumberjack's firefighting younger brother, the psychologist's daughter who insists she was abducted by UFOs in her youth, the professor's student aid who is also a radical socialist and arsonist, and the dilettante's older sister who happens to be an exotic dancer, amateur archaeologist, cat burglar, and speaker of Swahili and Yiddish.

Coincidentally, all are expert marksmen and come armed with shotguns and explosives.

Upon finding the mangled remains of the police officer and lumberjack outside, the group immediately agrees that all of their relatives and friends must in fact be dead; they burn the Monk mansion to the ground, and when the shambling mass that was once named Finnaeus appears, they throw sticks of dynamite at its feet and then blast them with a shotgun until a satisfactory explosion occurs.

The group returns to town, completely unharmed thanks to their uncanny foresight in bringing along heavy weaponry, but none the wiser for the experience, since they burned all answers to the questions initially raised, as well as quite a few questions they never quite got to, when they torched the mansion.

The Keeper sighs and privately wonders why he wasted his time writing forty pages of convoluted back story for this, then decides to run Dungeons & Dragons next week.


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## WayneLigon (Dec 18, 2007)

A Passing Maniac said:
			
		

> The group returns to town, completely unharmed thanks to their uncanny foresight in bringing along heavy weaponry, but none the wiser for the experience, since they burned all answers to the questions initially raised, as well as quite a few questions they never quite got to, when they torched the mansion.




The next week, four of the gunmen are found mysteriously dead in their beds, having clawed at their own throats until they severed the artery. The police and coroner can agree on nothing, save that they all four of them died in the most exquisite terror. The fifth man? His bed was simply empty, and no trace of him was ever found in this life.


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## T. Foster (Dec 18, 2007)

A Passing Maniac said:
			
		

> *Call of Cthulhu*



This may be the best one yet. I've both run and played CoC adventures that matched that description almost verbatim -- especially that group of 2nd characters ("just like my last character, but with a less plausible backstory and more combat skills").


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## VirgilCaine (Dec 18, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> The next week, four of the gunmen are found mysteriously dead in their beds, having clawed at their own throats *until they severed the artery*. The police and coroner can agree on nothing, save that they all four of them died in the most exquisite terror. The fifth man? His bed was simply empty, and no trace of him was ever found in this life.




Which artery would that be?

Also, this is an example of the player rewards and character rewards in CoC not matching up. 

Also, one of the many reasons I don't like CoC. GMs tend to like what's best for "the story", not what's best for the PCs survival. 



> That's cool, just as long as you realize you're not actually playing D&D if there's no inn.




I just want you to know, you can go to Arby's.


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## Stoat (Dec 18, 2007)

*WFRP*

Horst, a smuggler from Wulfenburgheim, and Karl, a charcoal burner from the same village, discover a tattered map on the body of a plague-blown soldier.  Because neither can read, they enlist the aid of Gildiril, a wandering elven scribe.  The scribe has been drawing the attention of a trigger-happy Witch-hunter, and is anxious to leave town before an angry mob burns him at the stake for being (a) literate and (b) an elf.  He tells Horst and Karl that the map leads to a ruined monastery where a buried treasure is hidden.  Anxious to add a little muscle to their ranks, the group hires Snurri, an alcoholic dwarf trollslayer with a four-page backstory detailing a tragic love affair gone horribly awry.

The four leave Wulfenburgheim in a driving rain with 4 copper pennies and 3 shillings among them.  They're walking.  In thigh-deep mud.  Outside of town they pass a mass grave filled with plague victims, but wisely choose not to investigate it.

Along the way they meet Pieter Eckhart von Szobel, a hooded, cloaked mystic with a wart and a dead eye.  Von Szobel claims to be familiar with the ruins, and tells them of a secret door which hides a valuable ruby.  He offers to accompany the party, but they smell a rat and refuse his help. 

The group enters the ruins and finds three bow-legged goblins hiding in a cesspit.  The trollslayer screams a battle cry and charges into melee.  Immediately thereafter, a goblin attacks with a rusty cleaver and severs the dwarf's femoral artery.  The trollslayer bleeds to death in the filth two rounds later.  The charcoal burner takes one goblin's arm off at the elbow with a lucky swipe of his hatchet, and is wounded in return.  The smuggler realizes that his career's trappings didn't include any weapons, and he winds up attacking with a rusty cleaver dropped by one of the gobbos.   The scribe retreats out of the chamber.   The second goblin dies when the smuggler shatters its jaw, covering the floor with blood, saliva and broken teeth.  The third goblin retreats, but not before landing a blow that causes the charcoal burner to lose an eye.

The smuggler and the scribe find the secret door while the charcoal burner stands dumbly, muttering 'my eye, my eye' over and over.  The smuggler searches the chest within, but rolls a 97 on the relevant test.  This triggers a poison arrow trap, which wounds him.  The smuggler fails his toughness test and dies in agony, bleeding from his eyes.

The scribe takes the gem and leads the charcoal burner out of the ruin.    Von Szobel is waiting for them upstairs, this time wearing the eight-pointed star of chaos and carrying a staff with a rotted human head on one end.  The vile sorcerer tries to cast a spell, but rolls triples on the casting test.  Unholy energy courses through his body, and he dies.

The charcoal burner buys a wooden eye from a traveling halfling and retires from adventuring.  The scribe attempts to sell the ruby, but is chased out of town by an angry mob who believe he is in league with von Szobel.  He escapes, but exposure to the dungeon filth has caused him to contract a terrible disease.  He dies of the bloody flux in a ditch somewhere on the road to Altdorf.


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## Wik (Dec 18, 2007)

Stoat said:
			
		

> *WFRP*




Alright.  That made me laugh.  Pretty hard.  I think you win the thread.

I kind of want to learn how to play WFRP, now.


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## Pants (Dec 18, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> Alright.  That made me laugh.  Pretty hard.  I think you win the thread.
> 
> I kind of want to learn how to play WFRP, now.



Ditto, although since I kinda know *how *to play, I just want to play it.


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## shilsen (Dec 18, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> Alright.  That made me laugh.  Pretty hard.  I think you win the thread.
> 
> I kind of want to learn how to play WFRP, now.



 I'm guessing Stoat's description is of WFRP 1e and/or isn't any more representative than the various ones of the other systems on this thread are. I recently got into WFRP and am currently involved in three 2e campaigns as a player and one as a DM, and none of them seem to work that way. Heck, WFRP 2e is specifically written as less lethal than D&D 3e, with PCs being created possessing fate points that allow one to survive something that would kill them. Which, personally, I think is a very good thing.


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## Orius (Dec 18, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> Yeah.  Some people really don't like it when I suggest that their prefferred eddition may have had "Flaws".  The funny thing is, I've been accused of slamming both 2e and 3e - even though those are both editions I have loved in my time.  The one edition I like the least - 1e - I haven't been accused of knocking!  Kind of funny.




Durn grognards!  

The thing is the way you wrote it, it does kind of come off as someone who think's Gary's vision is the One True Game or something.  Or something diaglo would say.


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## Orius (Dec 18, 2007)

You know, I think I'm glad I stick with just D&D.  All four D&D versions of the module sound better.



> GURPS




 Not too bad, but don't really like all the nods to realism.  



> RIFTS
> 
> GreatMaw the Horned Dragon Pup, Dances-With-Faeries the Ley Line Walker, Spork the renegade Juicer, and X98012z10v2.89 the full conversion Borg set out to find a new location to battle the Coalition from.
> 
> While the GM planned to play out the discovery of a hidden network of tunnels underneath an abandoned orphanage within the slums of Chi-Town, creating characters took 7 hours of game time.




Hahaha!  That certainly sounds like everything I've heard about RIFTS.  I swear, the more I read about this game, the more seemingly broken it becomes.  



> Shadowrun




Shadowrun always seems so weird, I'm not sure if it's cool or not.    Still, if I wanted to play the futuristic version of the adventure, Shadowrun sounds a hell of a lot more fun than RIFTS.  



> Call of Cthulhu




Well, lets see everyone in the first group died or went nuts and then died, so it must be an authentic CoC experience.  

Let's see though, we still need at least one game in the WoD.


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## maggot (Dec 18, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> The battle takes about 30 minutes;




GURPS measures combat time second by second.  That would be one heck of a long battle in game, and in my experience no combat of this magnitude would be resolved that quickly in table time.


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Dec 18, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> … and I think it lacks weapon proficiencies (I know it lacks specialization rules)



WRONG.

AD&D 1st Edition does indeed have weapon proficiencies!  1st level fighters are proficient in 4 weapons and gain a new proficiency every 3 levels thereafter.

So in your example, nobody in the party uses the longsword since it is not an automatic proficiency.  But in fact your example is a corner case.  Every player who read the DMG knows that 70% of all magic swords are longswords.

Likewise in 2nd edition longswords are the most common magic weapon.  But I do think that characters proficient in weapons other than longsword become more common in 2nd edition for roleplaying reasons.

If you're going to be snarky, at least get your facts straight.


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Dec 18, 2007)

Wik said:
			
		

> BECMI (or, "old D&D")
> …  The wizard takes out a few with a well-cast sleep spell, before retreating and doing little in the combat, while the fighter and cleric perform much more ably.



Ah but you forgot one of the most formidable weapons in the magic-user's arsenal — burning oil.  In BD&D, flaming oil does 1d8 the first round and 2d8 point of damage the second round!  While I only played a few BD&D games, in every OD&D game I played in or DMed, the magic-user always carried flasks of oil.


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## Griffith Dragonlake (Dec 18, 2007)

T. Foster said:
			
		

> Original D&D (1974):
> 
> ….  The magic-user takes out a few with a well-cast sleep spell, before retreating and doing little in the combat.



In my personal experience, magic-users would lob flasks of oil (we called them Molotov cocktails).

As far as I can tell, there are no explicit rules in OD&D (1974) or any of the supplements either (excluding Holmes BD&D).  I think the house rule my group used was 1d6 points of damage per round for 2 rounds.  I do know that when the Holmes BD&D game out and said that it should be 1d8 the first round and 2d8 the second round we were shocked and were divided as to whether to up the damage or not.


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## Wik (Dec 18, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> WRONG.
> 
> AD&D 1st Edition does indeed have weapon proficiencies!  1st level fighters are proficient in 4 weapons and gain a new proficiency every 3 levels thereafter.
> 
> ...




Alright.  My bad.  If you read what I'd been saying, I'm least familiar with 1e.  So, sure, I guess 1e had the same problems 2e stood by.  Woops.  Didn't get my "facts straight".

*shrug*


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## Gumby (Dec 18, 2007)

*Exalted*

The Eclipse Caste Ironic Featherweight Sofa, the Night Caste Golden Darkness Oxymoron, the Dawn Caste Sword o' Plenty, the Twilight Caste Patient Lemonhead, and the Zenith Caste Brilliant Tableleg set out to destroy every Dragon-Blooded in the Realm, the Deathlords, the Fair Folk, half of the Sidereals, any God that looks at them funny, and that mountain, because it's there.

On the way, they encounter a country that asks them to journey into the Underworld and retrieve the still-beating heart of the Deathlord Treader in Molasses, so that it can be exposed to the breath of the Goddess of Truth, Beauty and Wagonwheel Spokes.  They figure there's something shifty about the country and slay every last man, woman, and child, and then use necromancy to create an invincible undead army from the destruction.

After setting alight the Blessed Isle in a blaze of iridescent amaranth, they go into the Underworld anyway, where they find a chest.  The Night fails his Larceny check and is incinerated by the deadly force of the tears of Okina-yukami-Otaku, the Goddess of social anxiety.  Inside the chest though, is the Glorious Fivefold Guillotine Saber, a daiklaive of great power that can instantly slay everything in five parsecs if they don't have a perfect defense charm.  The Dawn already has a better weapon and the Eclipse uses the daiklaive to sweep up the ashes of the Night Caste, in order to bring them to the Five Maidens and beseech the Maidens to resurrect his fallen brother.  When he does so, the collective weight of his Socialize Dice Pool breaks the gaming table in half.


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## T. Foster (Dec 18, 2007)

Griffith Dragonlake said:
			
		

> In my personal experience, magic-users would lob flasks of oil (we called them Molotov cocktails).
> 
> As far as I can tell, there are no explicit rules in OD&D (1974) or any of the supplements either (excluding Holmes BD&D).  I think the house rule my group used was 1d6 points of damage per round for 2 rounds.  I do know that when the Holmes BD&D game out and said that it should be 1d8 the first round and 2d8 the second round we were shocked and were divided as to whether to up the damage or not.



 I never played OD&D in its day (I was an infant at the time...) so I can't attest to what people did or didn't do in actual play. As you mentioned, though, there weren't any rules in the book covering "molotov cocktails" (those didn't show up until the Holmes Basic Set and AD&D) so I don't think of that as part of the quintessential OD&D experience (and, in fact, I specifically don't allow them in my OD&D games -- you can dump out a flask of oil and set the pool alight, but you can't stuff a lit rag in the flask and throw it as a bomb).

The 1E example should definitely have included the mage hurling oil-bombs, though (and possibly toasting one of his allies with a misthrow). With a direct hit (which, the way most DMs I played with rule it, only requires a hit on AC 10) causing 3d6 damage (2d6 on round 1, 1d6 on round 2) it's _by far_ the most effective weapon in the 1st-3rd level AD&D characters' arsenal, and it usually doesn't take long for the players to figure that out.


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## Numion (Dec 18, 2007)

Stoat said:
			
		

> *WFRP*
> 
> Immediately thereafter, a goblin attacks with a rusty cleaver and severs the dwarf's femoral artery.  The trollslayer bleeds to death in the filth two rounds later.




a) Impossible - fate points
b) Not likely - Goblin vs. a troll slayer, one hit?


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## trollwad (Dec 18, 2007)

Gamma World (Omega World)

Four neophyte aspiring adventurers (a clever pure strain human with a rusty knife and a staff, a two-headed mutant human with telepathy who can project laser beams from his eyes, an eight-legged mutant dog with an oversized jaw and an enhanced sense of smell and a 9’ tall mute green water-breathing cactus with poison needles, insect attraction, and narcolepsy) wander into a farming village and are tasked with recovering a “sacred fire stone.”  The village elder’s flying metal vehicle (a levitation car) is no longer working and he has one of his young advisors guide the adventurers thru a burning desert to a ruined complex of the Ancients where he believes a replacement can be found.

Along the way, the PCs encounter a hermit with strange mental powers who is being attacked by a mutant ant.  The cactus uses his insect attraction to lead the mutant creature harmlessly into the wilderness. After a brief discussion, the overjoyed hermit telepathically conveys to the two-headed mutant that the party’s guide is treacherous. 

Upon arriving at the Ancient complex, the PCs prepare to enter, but the guide says "I will go no further; I will wait for you here."  The PCs decide that the guide is no longer of any value to them and stake him naked over a hill while the cactus attracts mutant ants from miles around.

Lighting torches and entering the complex, the eight-legged mutant dog smells a group of badders (upright mutant badgers who secretly idolize the mascot for the University of Wisconsin) approaching.  The PCs ambushes the group of 12 badders as they round the corner.  The mutant’s laser eyes and the cactus’ poison needles do immediate damage to a number of badders, but (at least the Gamma World) battle settles into an interminable 20 minute (game time and real time) melee as the catus’ narcolepsy sets in and he drifts to sleep in the corner and the pure strain human’s staff and the dog’s bite take forever to finish off the injured badders.  

After melee, the PCs wake up the cactus and take a funny-looking card from the large badder.  The card opens up a strange heavily sealed door on the side of the room.  There is a strange metallic (lead) chest that on the other side of the door.  The metallic (lead) chest is easy to open and unlocked and contains a red glowing stone (marked nuclear fuel cell in Ancient) – opening the chest makes the pure strain human very sick.  The speedy dog quickly closes the chest.  The next morning, the pure strain human develops agoraphobia.

The two-headed human sneaks into the village at night (while his comrades hide on the far side of the village behind cover and prepare to provide a distraction if needed).  The mutant human resolves to use the sacred stone to power the levitation car and escape with it into the wilderness.  He attempts to replace the old sacred stone in the car with a new sacred stone but not being a pure-strained human he screws up the exchange, blowing up the car, the sacred stones, himself and most of the village.  

In Gamma World, the surviving party wanders into the wilderness, broken and battered, but possibly wiser.  In Omega World, the rest of the party gains a modicum of experience for their travels and a full level for accidentally nuking a village.


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## Satori (Dec 19, 2007)

Gumby said:
			
		

> The Eclipse Caste Ironic Featherweight Sofa, the Night Caste Golden Darkness Oxymoron, the Dawn Caste Sword o' Plenty, the Twilight Caste Patient Lemonhead, and the Zenith Caste Brilliant Tableleg set out to destroy every Dragon-Blooded in the Realm, the Deathlords, the Fair Folk, half of the Sidereals, any God that looks at them funny, and that mountain, because it's there.
> 
> On the way, they encounter a country that asks them to journey into the Underworld and retrieve the still-beating heart of the Deathlord Treader in Molasses, so that it can be exposed to the breath of the Goddess of Truth, Beauty and Wagonwheel Spokes.  They figure there's something shifty about the country and slay every last man, woman, and child, and then use necromancy to create an invincible undead army from the destruction.
> 
> After setting alight the Blessed Isle in a blaze of iridescent amaranth, they go into the Underworld anyway, where they find a chest.  The Night fails his Larceny check and is incinerated by the deadly force of the tears of Okina-yukami-Otaku, the Goddess of social anxiety.  Inside the chest though, is the Glorious Fivefold Guillotine Saber, a daiklaive of great power that can instantly slay everything in five parsecs if they don't have a perfect defense charm.  The Dawn already has a better weapon and the Eclipse uses the daiklaive to sweep up the ashes of the Night Caste, in order to bring them to the Five Maidens and beseech the Maidens to resurrect his fallen brother.  When he does so, the collective weight of his Socialize Dice Pool breaks the gaming table in half.





I literally laughed out loud.


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## Stoat (Dec 19, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> a) Impossible - fate points
> b) Not likely - Goblin vs. a troll slayer, one hit?




(a)  Maybe the Trollslayer already used up his fate points?  Maybe his player felt it wasn't in character to try and cheat death?

(b)  Extremely unlikely, I'd say, but within the realm of possibility.  Besides, _somebody_ has to be critted and killed by a pitiful goblin or it just isn't a WFRP parody.


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## Satori (Dec 19, 2007)

I'm not talented enough, but we need a Vampire: The Masquerade adventure!  As long as it includes a munchkin Brujah played by a 14 year old WoW player, a mysterious Tremere played by a guy who constantly wears a trenchcoat and sunglasses, and his starving artist Toreador gothic girlfriend with black lipstick and fishnets stockings on her hands.


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## Numion (Dec 19, 2007)

Stoat said:
			
		

> (a)  Maybe the Trollslayer already used up his fate points?  Maybe his player felt it wasn't in character to try and cheat death?




The game is about _heroic_ fantasy, but yeah, there's nothing stopping players from pissing away characters. That's hardly a function of the system, though.

I just pointed it out because WFRPs lethality is vastly exaggerated on the net, and seems to get worse with each telling. Don't get me wrong, it's a great game, but it essentially has it's roots in D&D style gaming (well D&D where characters never get past level 5, anyway).

Fate points actually make the first 1-4 sessions of any WFRP campaign basically deathless, in my (quite extensive 1E WFRP) experience.



> (b)  Extremely unlikely, I'd say, but within the realm of possibility.  Besides, _somebody_ has to be critted and killed by a pitiful goblin or it just isn't a WFRP parody.




I thought these tales were about typical sessions, not freak rolls and players intentionally getting characters killed. WFRP, Trollslayer vs. Goblin - bet on the goblin. Every time.


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## Pants (Dec 20, 2007)

Numion said:
			
		

> The game is about _heroic_ fantasy, but yeah, there's nothing stopping players from pissing away characters. That's hardly a function of the system, though.



WFRP is _heroic _fantasy?   

I know it's lethality is exaggerated, but it's still an extremely lethal game, with many, many bad things that can happen to characters other than death.


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## Sitara (Dec 20, 2007)

Actually an encounter with a couple of gobbles could seriously screw up a 'fresh and typical' wfrp v2 party. It could very well be a drain on FP's. If someone was out of FP's prior to the fight, then death is certainly possible.

Also, even assuming all pc's defeatd the goblins, and the Trollslayer had to spend a FP, then they would have been salughtered by the sorceror had he not failed his roll. (all the sorceror needed to do was summon one demon)Insta TPK, at least for those who had no FP's to spend.

Diseases are completely in the narrators control though.


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## Sitara (Dec 20, 2007)

Great read.   Anyhow, let me peek into the future and come up with:

*4E*

The peeceez have just left their previous lives behind and taken up the profession of an adventurer. After a blessing from the village wise woman, who had a large hand in raising the Dragonborn from birth, they leave the village they all grew up in and head out into the vast and dark wilderness that surrounds their home, hoping to reach the fabled city of Mythagar and seek a more purpose filled life, and make their mark upon the darkened world in which they live.,

While traversing through the wild and sinister lands, ever watchful for the monsters and vile creatures they have heard about but never yet seen, the pc's stumble across the ruin of what appears to be an ancient tower. Being explorers at heart they decide to venture inside and see what lies therein; perhaps they can find clues to the past, some evidence of what the world was like during the days of the Dragonborn and Tiefling empires, before the Great War between them both ravaged their world and left it into a few scattered villages and towns scattered across a dark and festering land.

The Tiefling rogue creeps down first, using his Stealth to good effect. Not that anything really has a chance to see him, since with Skill Focus Stealth he's pretty much invisible. Just to be on the safe side, the rogue declares he is using "The Koiled Kobra" stance as he enters; that boost to initiative the stance gives will be useful if he needs to enter combat. 

Once down there, he declares the all clear and the rest of the party comes down. Since no one has darkvision, the Eladrin wizard with staff focus uses his power and causes light to come a glow at the end of his staff. The Dragonborn Paladin of Bahamut leads the group, with the Tiefling rogue at his side. 

Expecting imminent combat, all pc's have declared stances: the Paladin is using "Destructive Force of Smiting", the Rogues continues "Koiled Kobra", the wizard uses "Golden Wyvren" while the cleric uses "Tortoise Shell"

The pc's cross the corridor and come across a large, empty room with a chest and a door at one end. Suddenly, the door opens and 20 goblins burst forth! A loud *roar!* ensues, and a white DRAGON bursts forth from the roof, shattering the dome ceiling and landing in true dramatic fashion in the center of the room. 

The pc's realize this is a Dragon Lair, and the goblins are its servants!!

The rogue, thanks to Skill Focus Initiative(remember, init is a skill in 4e) and koiled kobra goes first. His initivative count is so freakin’ far above anyone else it ain’t even funny, so he effortlessly moves to the side of the dragon...and delays.

The dragonborn charges at the dragon while using his Exploding Boulder Maneuver; at the same time he activates a power he gained from his Warlord Traniing Feat and yells out to bahamut, granting everyone +1 to a whole lotta , and then lays in with a Defensive Smite; all in one round!! Due to the massive attack bonusii he gets, rolling for attack is just basic ettiquette’s at this point
.
He does a ton of damage, and at the same time the AC of the rogue goes up by 4, thanks to the defensive smite. There is no in-game reasoning of why this should be so; we will assume the dragon is distracted by the paladin and thus the rogue is harder to hit for it.

The rogue immediately activates his delayed action and attempts to make a flanking sneak attack with a huge bonus thanks to the dastardly strike talent he has…sadly, flanking the dragon results in activating an immediate action on the part of the dragon!

The dragon uses it to make a free counter attack on the rogue and paladin; the rogue is missed thanks to the increased AC, and the fact the dragon is taking massive penalties on its attack rolls, since the paladin’s attack pushed  down the condition track and bloodied it! The paladin though takes damage, but he takes it like a dragonborn should. The tiefling rogues racial counterattack ability the kicks in, and THEN he gets his regular attack (which he delayed ages ago) and the dragon dies from massive retributive strike/flanking/dastardly strike damage. The poor thing never even had time to use its breath weapon, or get its turn! (initiative is not a class skill for white dragons!)


Gm and Players: “Whew! That was a  load of actions. Oh and we have two pc’s yet to go. Its still the first round…”

The wizard is up next; he uses his Eladrin racial ability to teleport right in front of the horde; he the uses his staff as a focus to cast a per encounter burning hands and use the Golden Wyvren Adept feat to shape it so it only affects the goblins and no one else. 20 Gobbies die!

Wizard Player: “Feel teh poWaH of teh Golden Wyvren!! 

The cleric moves a little bit forward so that all allies are with the 6X6 range for his ability which increases their healing, but otherwise does nothing.

Combat is over. The +1 the pc’s got from te warlord ability is gone, as is the boost to the rogues AC. Those were per encounter powers and the encounter is over. Finally, the rogues moves to have an encounter with the chest. (open the chest). He takes 10 on his search and discovers the trap; however he is not sure about being able to disarm it. So the cleric moves a bit forward and activates an aura that boosts the tieflings AC a bit; while the paladin moves back and punches the cleric in the head. The tiefling’s AC suddenly shoots back up.

The disarm attempt fails but hey, who cares. With his buffed AC the trap misses by a long shot. The Tiefling opens the chest to reveal a magnificent yet flawed Opal,a Feyrazor Dagger and a map detailing ancient Dragonborn empire ruins from the earlier ages! 

The Tielfling takes the dagger, the wizard takes the Opal while the dragonborn keeps the map, hoping to go there and discover his heritage! The cleric gets nothing but that’s ok, since he also did not do much of anything the entire adventure. (the class in fact will go on to not do much in this entire dnd edition!)

On the way back up they come across the village ‘Wise Woman’, who turns out to be an Elder Hag! She cackles and caw’s, and (taking a free action) tells them her kind were responsible for the misunderstanding and the eventual war between the Dragonborn and the Tiefling empires. She says that eventually her masters will cover this entire world in darkness; but first she needs the map the party has so convieiently extracted for her.

Obviously the pc’s disagree. They fight. The dragonborn uses his breath weapon, the wizard uses his per encounter Burning Hands  in conjunction with the staff and the Golden Wyvren feat (player: “Golden Wyvren ruelZ!!”); the Tiefling uses ‘flurry of daggers‘, while the cleric shuffles forward a few steps so that his activated aura, which grants enemies a penalty to attack rolls and AC, encompasses the hag.

They kill the hag, and return back to their village, eager to set out next day for the ruins of the DragonBorn Empire, and tell the world about the hag and her kind!!!


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## catsclaw227 (Dec 20, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The dragonborn fighter suggests that he could just hack through the vault door with a pick, instead of having to fight all the monsters, but the DM tells the player that walls and doors in this dungeon are impervious to damage. It's, um, ancient magic.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Against the anti-paladin, the dragonborn fighter wanted to break the orc's morningstar by chopping it in half, but he found out the weapon was invincible (it must've been made from the same material they make the doors out of).




Looks like the dragonborn was trying to call the ancient Sundring ability from the Cold Mists of ThreeFive.


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## GreatLemur (Dec 20, 2007)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> The warlord does nothing on his own but shout encouragement like a cheerleader, letting everyone else do cool stuff.



Looks like somebody failed to notice the frequently-referenced 4e design ethic of all characters getting to attack, every round.  Hell, the freaking Cleric is going to heal people by hitting other people.


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## carborundum (Dec 20, 2007)

RangerWicket, that was genius!

For a minute I was back in Asheron's Call - not the mechanics as such, just the feel of my first mmorpg. That was the same buzz as my first rpg, just a different game. I'm starting to think that 4e is going to be like that, which ... is fine.

Argh - sidetracked!
Brilliant stuff though, especially the power names 


Ooooh - just noticed more pages - maybe I'll do Cthulhu - oh no, been done. Anyone done Paranoia yet? I'd do Rolemaster but I'd need to go find at least 7 books first just to do justice to the crits and spells. The first level cleric could only cure stubbed toes though, and specifically stubbed toes. Fingers are level two...

/goes to read beyond page 1.


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## Satori (Dec 20, 2007)

> while the paladin moves back and punches the cleric in the head. The tiefling’s AC suddenly shoots back up.




This deserves a ROFLCOPTER.


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