# "Why the Empire Strikes Back Is Overrated"



## Dioltach (May 3, 2020)

An article on the BBC website. 

I don't really agree with its premise. "If The Empire Strikes Back had been a one-off, I could have forgiven it by now. But what about all the many films that have used it as a model – all the films that have tarnished Star Wars by contradicting its mythos and obsessing over its family trees?" Surely that's an issue with the subsequent movies, not _Empire_?


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## Zardnaar (May 3, 2020)

That's my theory. It's hacks who can't innovate. Hire Timothey Zahn for storyboarding.

 Still claiming ANH is the best isn't crazy.


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## Imaculata (May 3, 2020)

It sounds like whoever wrote that article doesn't really understand Empire, or what it makes it work as a film. And no, saying that the original Star Wars is better is not crazy or controversial. But I respectfully disagree.

Some of his points are even completely wrong. Such as saying the emperor is a jedi. He's not. He's powerful with the dark side of the force, but he is no jedi. He even speaks dismissive in regards to 'jedi's and their weapons' in the third film, to highlight this.

But also his criticism regarding the opening crawl of Empire is silly. As if the new threat diminishes the victory from the first movie. I don't think that is true at all. And surely a new threat must be established? I think Empire does this remarkably well, and does a great job at defying expectations. It takes the material of the first film, which was very light hearted, and adds a more serious narrative with higher stakes.


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## Dioltach (May 3, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> Some of his points are even completely wrong. Such as saying the emperor is a jedi. He's not. He's powerful with the dark side of the force, but he is no jedi. He even speaks dismissive in regards to 'jedi's and their weapons' in the third film, to highlight this.




Actually, I get where the author is coming from with this one. In _Star Wars_, Vader is something of an outsider, an unknown quantity to the Imperial officers, someone who has strange abilities that don't fit their carefully regimented world. They sneer at him and his "antiquated beliefs", but they fear him. Making the Emperor a Force user, and Vader's "master", in _Empire_ and _Jedi_ diminishes Vader. His powers are legitimised, and he becomes little more than an extension of the Emperor.


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## S'mon (May 3, 2020)

I do think Star Wars is a better film with a more interesting world and interpersonal dynamics.


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## UngainlyTitan (May 3, 2020)

I get where the author is coming from, but as sequels go, Empire is a good one. I think the rot in Star Wars starts in Return.  The Luke, Vader, Emperor story is pretty good, the Deathstar 2 is meh and the Battle of Endor changes the Imperials from scary bad guys to incompetent idiots.


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## UngainlyTitan (May 3, 2020)

S'mon said:


> I do think Star Wars is a better film with a more interesting world and interpersonal dynamics.



It is a more focused film, the world building is more hinted at and the main characters are on screen most of the time.


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## Umbran (May 3, 2020)

Dioltach said:


> His powers are legitimised, and he becomes little more than an extension of the Emperor.




Agreed.  

Honestly, the whole thing goes in the bin when you realize the eradication of the Jedi happened in living memory - everyone at that table scoffing at Vader's powers was born before Order 66 was given.  We have to jump through hoops to rationalize Han Solo's skepticism as well.  Bit of a mess, really.


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## Imaculata (May 3, 2020)

Order 66 wasn't introduced until the prequels, so for the sake of this movie, I try to ignore it. There is a lot of stuff that the prequels added, that is problematic for the overall plot. It would be unfair to hold this against Empire.


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## Umbran (May 3, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> Order 66 wasn't introduced until the prequels, so for the sake of this movie, I try to ignore it. There is a lot of stuff that the prequels added, that is problematic for the overall plot. It would be unfair to hold this against Empire.




The point is that, overall, _consistency_ was not actually a prime concern - good story for the moment was more important than making sure everything across all the movies makes a lot of sense.  

If lack of consistency is an issue for you, then this is going to be a point against every movie beyond the first.


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## Imaculata (May 3, 2020)

Honestly, I never felt like consistency was a problem in the original trilogy.


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## doctorbadwolf (May 3, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Honestly, the whole thing goes in the bin when you realize the eradication of the Jedi happened in living memory - everyone at that table scoffing at Vader's powers was born before Order 66 was given.  We have to jump through hoops to rationalize Han Solo's skepticism as well.  Bit of a mess, really.



Yep. The Clone Wars needed to have happened longer ago, or after Order 66.

But the best to least best ranking for the OT is;

Return of The Jedi
Star Wars (A New Hope)
Empire Strikes Back


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## Zardnaar (May 3, 2020)

The Jedi are Uber rare though in the star wars galaxy and somewhat secretive. 

People knew they exist but they're rarer than US. Navy seals in the real world. 


 We see more onscreen than the average galactic citizen. 

That's more of a prequel problem though.


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## Zardnaar (May 3, 2020)

S'mon said:


> I do think Star Wars is a better film with a more interesting world and interpersonal dynamics.




 I don't think anyone's gonna get to upset with that. 

 It's understandable, as a kid SW better, as Adult ESB. 

 Other stuff

Opinion Jedi also changed as I got older. Still live it, Vader/Luke stuff, space battle. 

Deathstar II meh.


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## wicked cool (May 6, 2020)

whats scary is they cant replicate it-Almost 40 years and for live action its still the pinnacle in the star wars universe. Almost every time vader shows up its the coolest part of a movie/cartoon etc  (he is the best part of rogue one)

I truly believe star wars cant recover and there will be a continuing effort to discredit this movie as time goes by. 

I tuly believe a Vader movie where he is hunting down the jedi would be a blockbuster and would surpass the last 3 movies. What I cant understand is why they cant their acts together


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## TwoSix (May 6, 2020)

wicked cool said:


> whats scary is they cant replicate it-Almost 40 years and for live action its still the pinnacle in the star wars universe. Almost every time vader shows up its the coolest part of a movie/cartoon etc  (he is the best part of rogue one)
> 
> I truly believe star wars cant recover and there will be a continuing effort to discredit this movie as time goes by.
> 
> I tuly believe a Vader movie where he is hunting down the jedi would be a blockbuster and would surpass the last 3 movies. What I cant understand is why they cant their acts together



As a more casual fan of Star Wars (I didn't see ANH or Empire until their re-releases in 1997), I think the biggest problem with Star Wars is that they can't let the original movies go.  Everything circles around that trilogy as the single most important thing that ever happened in that galaxy.  The biggest problem with the prequels, to my mind, was the decision to keep circling around the original trilogy instead of moving the heck on.  They should have just left the idea of "Episodes I-III" as a fun idea to build fanfics and other media around, and new movies should have been the vehicle to introduce new concepts and new characters into the universe.


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## Umbran (May 6, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> The Jedi are Uber rare though in the star wars galaxy and somewhat secretive.
> 
> People knew they exist but they're rarer than US. Navy seals in the real world.




Secretive?  They have a huge frelling temple right in the middle of the Republic's capitol!  They are used for diplomatic missions throughout the galaxy, leaders of worlds know them on sight!  Every darned one of the apparently has the rank of "General" in an interstellar war! 

Plus, we are talking about generals who were alive in the time of the Clone Wars - possibly already in military service themselves at the time of those wars only 20 years before, scoffing at Jedi powers.  These same military men were likely part of executing Order 66!  

It makes no sense for them to be dismissive.


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## Zardnaar (May 6, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Secretive?  They have a huge frelling temple right in the middle of the Republic's capitol!  They are used for diplomatic missions throughout the galaxy, leaders of worlds know them on sight!  Every darned one of the apparently has the rank of "General" in an interstellar war!
> 
> Plus, we are talking about generals who were alive in the time of the Clone Wars - possibly already in military service themselves at the time of those wars only 20 years before, scoffing at Jedi powers.  These same military men were likely part of executing Order 66!
> 
> It makes no sense for them to be dismissive.




 10000 out of trillion. 

 Germany had several hundred generals. How many can you name outside of Rommel, Manstein and a few others.

 US senators. You know they exist. How many have you talked to?


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## Umbran (May 6, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Germany had several hundred generals. How many can you name outside of Rommel, Manstein and a few others.
> 
> US senators. You know they exist. How many have you talked to?




You see, that's the point - I don't have to _name_ them.  I have to know they exist, know their function, and what general powers they possess.  I know German Generals existed, had massive military might at their command, walked over large portions of Europe and took the most massive mobilization of out country's military might to beat.  I do not _scoff_ at those generals.

And those generals all lived and died before I was born.  

Now, remember that scene in Star Wars, where a bunch of military commanders are making fun of the Jedi old religion to Vader's face.  The men in the room with Vader were around for the Clone Wars.  Any of them over the age of 40 were very likely in the military _during_ the Clone Wars.  They likely _served under those Jedi generals_!


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## Nebulous (May 6, 2020)

ardoughter said:


> I get where the author is coming from, but as sequels go, Empire is a good one. I think the rot in Star Wars starts in Return.  The Luke, Vader, Emperor story is pretty good, the Deathstar 2 is meh and the Battle of Endor changes the Imperials from scary bad guys to incompetent idiots.




As if laser bolts don't kill troopers easy enough, rocks thrown by child size monkeys also kills them just as fast


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## Zardnaar (May 6, 2020)

Umbran said:


> You see, that's the point - I don't have to _name_ them.  I have to know they exist, know their function, and what general powers they possess.  I know German Generals existed, had massive military might at their command, walked over large portions of Europe and took the most massive mobilization of out country's military might to beat.  I do not _scoff_ at those generals.
> 
> And those generals all lived and died before I was born.
> 
> Now, remember that scene in Star Wars, where a bunch of military commanders are making fun of the Jedi old religion to Vader's face.  The men in the room with Vader were around for the Clone Wars.  Any of them over the age of 40 were very likely in the military _during_ the Clone Wars.  They likely _served under those Jedi generals_!




 How many saw the force in use? 

 IRL
 It's probably because Star Wars was also self contained and expanded on later. Lucas didn't do the best job with the prequel Trilogy in that regard.

 Pre 1999 it made a bit more sense especially in the Thrawn Trilogy.

 There's a reason why there's only 3 good Star Wars films. Maybe 4 with Rogue One.

 George changed his mind a lot, later writers didn't care.


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> But the best to least best ranking for the OT is;
> 
> Return of The Jedi
> Star Wars (A New Hope)
> Empire Strikes Back




No one has commented on this?

No one?

This is not a take. This is not a hot take. This is ... blasphemy. Only a tool of the Ewok Plush Industry  and the Death Star Recycling Lobby would have a ranking that looks like this.

This ranking? It's a trap!


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## Zardnaar (May 6, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> No one has commented on this?
> 
> No one?
> 
> ...




 Depends when you saw them.
 As a kid in 80s I probably would have ranked them like that. I saw them out of order.

 Jedi first at theatre, ESB audio book, then Star Wars on TV then ESB on VHS something like that. 

 I don't remember much of Jedi at theatre except being scared of Jabba and being there with my brother.

 I never jumped on the Ewok hate bandwagon. That seemed to pick up steam in the 90s.

 It was probably 1995 VHS release when I watched them in order and binged them. 

 I taped that SW TV show though.  Watched so many times. 

Jedi gets some flak it doesn't deserve. Best space battle, one if the best duals.


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## doctorbadwolf (May 6, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> No one has commented on this?
> 
> No one?
> 
> ...



Nope. Jedi is the best Star Wars, but it’s very close with Star Wars. 


Zardnaar said:


> Depends when you saw them.
> As a kid in 80s I probably would have ranked them like that. I saw them out of order.
> 
> Jedi first at theatre, ESB audio book, then Star Wars on TV then ESB on VHS something like that.
> ...



I saw them in order.


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## Zardnaar (May 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Nope. Jedi is the best Star Wars, but it’s very close with Star Wars.
> 
> I saw them in order.




 I didn't. I understand that listing though. If you were young SW and Jedi probably easier to relate to. ESB is darker. 

 Jedi was probably my favorite late 80s. I switched to ESB in 95 or so.


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## Tyler Do'Urden (May 6, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Now, remember that scene in Star Wars, where a bunch of military commanders are making fun of the Jedi old religion to Vader's face.  The men in the room with Vader were around for the Clone Wars.  Any of them over the age of 40 were very likely in the military _during_ the Clone Wars.  They likely _served under those Jedi generals_!




Keep in mind, however, that Empire propaganda has severely discredited the Jedi at this point. As demonstrated in the Clone Wars series, the Jedi... weren't always all that competent at leading. These professional officers, in addition to being steeped in Imperial propaganda, probably dismiss the Jedi as frauds with overhyped powers - some psychic abilities that give them an edge in personal combat doesn't translate to superiority in leadership, tactics, etc, and as a danger to the New Order the Emperor was right to purge them.

So it's not that the Jedi "weren't real", it's that their beliefs overblew what they were capable of and gave them an undeserved reputation. Thus Motti's dismissal of the Jedi is fully compatible with him "having been there" - he knows they exist, but thinks that beyond a few clever tricks they're fakes. Less like us looking back on WW II generals, and more like early 20th century Chinese intellectuals looking back on the collapse of the Confucian bureaucracy, or Red Guards in the Cultural Revolution dismissing "the Four Olds".


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Nope. Jedi is the best Star Wars, but it’s very close with Star Wars.




Return of the Jedi-

*Cons*
1. Has a completely nonsensical plot.
2. Has the inclusion of Ewoks for no reason other than to sell merchandise to small children who eat at McDonalds.
3. Made the whole "love triangle" with Luke, Leia and Han (and the kiss) really, really creepy. (And no, this was not planned).
4. Was the worst directed and edited of all the films.
5. Made the Empire and the Stormtroopers look like bumbling idiots they could never shoot that straight, but now they were comic relief, instead of being fearsome.
6. The Ewok party sucked.
7. Killed off Boba Fett (or whatever retcon you need for him climbing out of the pit) in the worst possible way.

etc.


*Pros*
1. Gold bikini.


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## doctorbadwolf (May 6, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> I didn't. I understand that listing though. If you were young SW and Jedi probably easier to relate to. ESB is darker.
> 
> Jedi was probably my favorite late 80s. I switched to ESB in 95 or so.



Nope. My favorite as a kid was Star Wars.


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## doctorbadwolf (May 6, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Return of the Jedi-
> 
> *Cons*
> 1. Has a completely nonsensical plot.
> ...



Nah. Not sure why you’re so invested in proving my opinion “wrong”, and I don’t particularly care. Feel free to bug someone else, though.


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Nah. Not sure why you’re so invested in proving my opinion “wrong”




Because it makes me sad, in much the same way that it does when someone says that Dane Cook is the greatest comedian America has ever produced.

But I will not further disturb your love of the fuzzy little proto-Jar Jars.


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## doctorbadwolf (May 6, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Because it makes me sad, in much the same way that it does when someone says that Dane Cook is the greatest comedian America has ever produced.
> 
> But I will not further disturb your love of the fuzzy little proto-Jar Jars.





This sort of thing is why so many younger SW fans stay away from the larger SW fandom.


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> This sort of thing is why so many younger SW fans stay away from the larger SW fandom.




So true. I have never met a young person who argued a point with certainty, convinced that they were correct.

Young people, unlike the olds, don't really have any actual options or beliefs. Most of them are just like, "Yeah, anything is good. Like, modern stuff sucks. If an old says that old stuff is good, he's probably right. Although, I mean, c'mon, what did Citizen Kane ever do for cinema? It's no Sucker Punch."


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## doctorbadwolf (May 6, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> So true. I have never met a young person who argued a point with certainty, convinced that they were correct.
> 
> Young people, unlike the olds, don't really have any actual options or beliefs. Most of them are just like, "Yeah, anything is good. Like, modern stuff sucks. If an old says that old stuff is good, he's probably right. Although, I mean, c'mon, what did Citizen Kane ever do for cinema? It's no Sucker Punch."



Oh  lord. Ignored.


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## MGibster (May 6, 2020)

You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies?  I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies.  My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan.  Han is cool!


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 6, 2020)

MGibster said:


> You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies?  I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies.  My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan.  Han is cool!




I'm not sure the analogy fully holds. Han and Luke are the ESB and ANH.

RotJ is more of the Wedge Antilles; I mean, apparently there is someone who likes it the most, but I'm still shocked to see someone say, "You know who the best character in the original series is? Wedge. It's gotta be Wedge."


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## Dioltach (May 6, 2020)

MGibster said:


> You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies?  I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies.  My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan.  Han is cool!




Yes, remember when discussions were about hearing another person's views and ideas, considering their arguments and hopefully broadening your own horizons? And not about blindly refusing to change your own position?


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## wingsandsword (May 6, 2020)

Imaculata said:


> Some of his points are even completely wrong. Such as saying the emperor is a jedi. He's not. He's powerful with the dark side of the force, but he is no jedi. He even speaks dismissive in regards to 'jedi's and their weapons' in the third film, to highlight this.



Before the prequels were made, Lucas prohibited Star Wars authors from exploring Palpatine's origins or backstory, other than to say vaguely he was a prominent Senator of the old Republic that maneuvered his way to absolute power.  

His identity as a Sith wasn't explored until the Prequels.  Until then, there was nothing saying he wasn't a sort of renegade Jedi of some kind, the title "Dark Lord of the Sith" was only used for Vader at that point.  While Episode I very strongly hinted and implied Palpatine and Sidious were the same person, officially it wasn't revealed until 2005.

It honestly sounds like the author based his criticism, in part, on half-remembered Star Wars lore from the early-to-mid 1990's, before the prequels (or he only hazily remembers them).


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## Legatus Legionis (May 6, 2020)

.


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## doctorbadwolf (May 6, 2020)

MGibster said:


> You know what I do when I meet someone who says RotJ or ANH are the best Star Wars movies?  I tell them ESB is my favorite and then we move on to talking about what we love so much about the movies.  My favorite character is Luke Skywalker but I'm not going to begrudge a Han fan.  Han is cool!



I totally get people loving ESB the most! For me, a good SW conversation centers around talking about why we love our favorites, not crapping on the things we don't like in our not-favorites. 

I mean, we're adults. I don't even rag on jar-jar anymore. 

But Jedi is, thematically and in the context of the saga as a whole without being meta about what was planned when, has inarguably the single most important moment in the entire franchise, and that's hard to beat. 

If we disregard the rescue, which i enjoy rewatching more than the hoth sequence, though both are rad, and the ultimate victory (not when the emporer dies, but when Luke throws away his weapon), then I'd have to go with Star Wars. ESB is great. I love it. But ANH and RoTJ are just two of the best action adventure films ever made, IMO. 

I mean, I'd put ESB just below them. Like, it's close. 

But Luke in RoTJ is just so satisfying and excellent. The framing of his look next to Vader, the second battle between father and son, where all cards are on the table and Luke isn't an apprentice anymore, Han finally actually showing the change in character from the other two films, rather than starting the movie back to where he was before the end of the film before, and yes, the Ewoks. I think some folks are too stuck on the meta wrt Ewoks to just watch the movie as it is and enjoy it, which is a bummer. 

The empire doesn't look incompetent in RoTJ, the space battle is a narrow victory, and the ewoks just come out looking clever and determined. I don't think anyone would make the same arguments about the ewoks if they looked different.


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## MGibster (May 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I totally get people loving ESB the most! For me, a good SW conversation centers around talking about why we love our favorites, not crapping on the things we don't like in our not-favorites.




Heck, yeah.  And I absolutely adore Return of the Jedi!  I can't get mad at you for it being your favorite.  



> I mean, we're adults. I don't even rag on jar-jar anymore.




Me neither.  I came to grips with Jar-Jar when I realized no Star Wars movie could live up to my childhood.  Plus I felt bad for Ahmed Best the actor who played Jar-Jar.  



> But Jedi is, thematically and in the context of the saga as a whole without being meta about what was planned when, has inarguably the single most important moment in the entire franchise, and that's hard to beat.




Preach it!  The scene where Vader turns on the Emperor to protect Luke was great.  



> But Luke in RoTJ is just so satisfying and excellent. The framing of his look next to Vader, the second battle between father and son, where all cards are on the table and Luke isn't an apprentice anymore, Han finally actually showing the change in character from the other two films, rather than starting the movie back to where he was before the end of the film before, and yes, the Ewoks. I think some folks are too stuck on the meta wrt Ewoks to just watch the movie as it is and enjoy it, which is a bummer.




I'm fine with the Ewoks.  We're talking about a series modeled off of old serials like Flash Gordon.  Family fare.  I liked Ewoks when I was a kid and I still like them today.  

Here's a song for all you Ewok haters!



> The empire doesn't look incompetent in RoTJ, the space battle is a narrow victory, and the ewoks just come out looking clever and determined. I don't think anyone would make the same arguments about the ewoks if they looked different.




I also like how Luke's victory wasn't connected to the Rebel victory.


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## Twiggly the Gnome (May 6, 2020)

Nothing but love for the Ewoks.






Yub nub, mofo!


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## Zardnaar (May 6, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Nope. My favorite as a kid was Star Wars.




Fair enough. I never jumped on the Ewok hate bandwagon. I don't care if Jedi is someones favorite.

Hot take is AotC is best SW movie. Sure there's probably someone somewhere who thinks that but I've only encountered them online.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 7, 2020)

I never understood why everyone hates Ewoks, though I'm probably biased as I grew up as a kid with them, so I probably just liked that they were cute.
I agree that they aren't logical in their tactics, but then again, neither are the storm troopers. (Why would you design vehicles with legs?!?!)


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 7, 2020)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> First film (EP 4), the good guys won.
> 
> Second film (EP 5), the bad guys won.
> 
> ...



This isn't just the pattern of Star Wars, it's the general pattern of trilogies.


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## Zardnaar (May 7, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> I never understood why everyone hates Ewoks, though I'm probably biased as I grew up as a kid with them, so I probably just liked that they were cute.
> I agree that they aren't logical in their tactics, but then again, neither are the storm troopers. (Why would you design vehicles with legs?!?!)




 Rough terrain. In one of the books they put spider legs on an AT-AT. AT-MT the M was for mountain.


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## BookBarbarian (May 7, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> The Jedi are Uber rare though in the star wars galaxy and somewhat secretive.
> 
> People knew they exist but they're rarer than US. Navy seals in the real world.
> 
> ...




I like how The Mandalorian reinforces this with its conversation between Mando and the Armorer about the Child's abilites.

Overall I think Filnoi actually cares about continuity and consistency.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 7, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Rough terrain. In one of the books they put spider legs on an AT-AT. AT-MT the M was for mountain.



Legs are never better than caterpillar tracks or wheels. They have hover vehicles to completely avoid the above options! They can be knocked over to kill everyone inside and destroy the vehicle. 

It doesn't matter if terrain is rough if they can ignore the ground.


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## Zardnaar (May 7, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Legs are never better than caterpillar tracks or wheels. They have hover vehicles to completely avoid the above options! They can be knocked over to kill everyone inside and destroy the vehicle.
> 
> It doesn't matter if terrain is rough if they can ignore the ground.




 I suspect it's the rule of cool. In universe repulsor lift vehicles might cost more idk. 

 Speeder bikes not so good on Endor.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 7, 2020)

Speederbikes aren't good on Endor, but that's because they were stupidly speeding through the trees at full speed, crashing into trees a ton. If they slowed down, it would be a good option.


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## atanakar (May 8, 2020)

Not impressed by the article.

Empire is still my top SW movie after all these years. It gave the saga the dramatic weight and depth it need.


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## Eltab (May 9, 2020)

I wonder if the poll question "Is _The Empire Strikes Back_ overrated?" has had respondents classified by "I watched the movie in initial release" vs "I learned about the movie from sources outside the theater"?


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## Zardnaar (May 9, 2020)

At the time critics didn't like it as much.

 Critics opinions don't really matter though they're not the ones buying tickets generally.

 Any other problems of future movies is on them not ESB. We had original new stories but yeah.


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## Ovinomancer (May 10, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Legs are never better than caterpillar tracks or wheels. They have hover vehicles to completely avoid the above options! They can be knocked over to kill everyone inside and destroy the vehicle.
> 
> It doesn't matter if terrain is rough if they can ignore the ground.



Legs are actually far better at stably navigating lots of types of difficult terrain.  They work in mud, they work in shallow water, they work on steep slopes, they work in tight quarters, which are all places that tracks have issues.  Sure, they have downsides, but tracked vehicles do, too; they're slow and less maneuverable.

Hover/repulsor has other issues, mostly that they really only work well on flatish ground and have the same issues in tight quarters than tracks do.  

We, today, don't use legged vehicles because we can't effectively articulate them.  This is changing.  If you look at Boston Dynamic's latest robots for combat roles, they all have legs despite tracks being right there and easier to do.  They're not crazy or stupid -- there's a darned good reason they're working so hard to build robots with legs to accompany troops or navigate in buildings.


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## Ryujin (May 10, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> This isn't just the pattern of Star Wars, it's the general pattern of trilogies.




And therein, I believe, lies the answer. ESB is the first "bridge movie" that I can remember seeing in theatres. For example the old "Planet of the Apes" movies, most of which I saw in drive-in theatres as a kid, all could stand on their own. They were self-contained stories. Sure, you got a little more out of the story if you saw them all, but you really didn't need to.

You really need to see all of ANH/ESB/ROTJ to get the whole story, of the original trilogy. ANH can stand on its own. The purpose of ESB is to pull you back into the theatres for ROTJ. ESB can't stand on its own, because it doesn't tell a complete story without ROTJ.

It's the movie serial model, taken to it's logical conclusion. Buck Rogers and The Shadow would be jealous.


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## Gadget (May 11, 2020)

BookBarbarian said:


> I like how The Mandalorian reinforces this with its conversation between Mando and the Armorer about the Child's abilites.
> 
> Overall I think Filnoi actually cares about continuity and consistency.




See this I didn't quite get in the show.  The Jedi at the time are still a living memory.  Even if they were super rare such that the average Joe would never meet them, they were an integral part of the galaxy for millennia.  From all the legends that would have grown up around them (the way everyone knows what a leprechaun or mermaid is) to the propaganda (Palpatine was subtly undermining them all through the Clone Wars, creating a perception that it was a "Jedi War").  That stuff gets ingrained in public culture and psyche over the centuries, having ever seen or met a Jedi or not.  There were such things a holonet reports and such.  Sure, some people, particularly the younger generation, might regard that as 'a bunch of hooey' or some such, but to be completely baffled by the mention of them or their powers?

The Mandalorian artificer knows vague legends about the Jedi-Mandalorian war from thousands of years ago, but nothing about more recent events in the galaxy which prominently featured them and included Mandalor?


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 12, 2020)

Ryujin said:


> And therein, I believe, lies the answer. ESB is the first "bridge movie" that I can remember seeing in theatres. For example the old "Planet of the Apes" movies, most of which I saw in drive-in theatres as a kid, all could stand on their own. They were self-contained stories. Sure, you got a little more out of the story if you saw them all, but you really didn't need to.
> 
> You really need to see all of ANH/ESB/ROTJ to get the whole story, of the original trilogy. ANH can stand on its own. The purpose of ESB is to pull you back into the theatres for ROTJ. ESB can't stand on its own, because it doesn't tell a complete story without ROTJ.
> 
> It's the movie serial model, taken to it's logical conclusion. Buck Rogers and The Shadow would be jealous.



And this is the best review of the movie that I've ever read. 

The movie isn't meant to stand on its own, it's to make the original Star Wars no longer have to stand on its own, making a whole story that would eventually span 3 trilogies. A New Hope could and did stand alone. The Empire Strikes Back cannot, and that is its purpose. It succeeded at what it was trying to accomplish.


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## Janx (May 13, 2020)

Ovinomancer said:


> Legs are actually far better at stably navigating lots of types of difficult terrain.  They work in mud, they work in shallow water, they work on steep slopes, they work in tight quarters, which are all places that tracks have issues.  Sure, they have downsides, but tracked vehicles do, too; they're slow and less maneuverable.
> 
> Hover/repulsor has other issues, mostly that they really only work well on flatish ground and have the same issues in tight quarters than tracks do.
> 
> We, today, don't use legged vehicles because we can't effectively articulate them.  This is changing.  If you look at Boston Dynamic's latest robots for combat roles, they all have legs despite tracks being right there and easier to do.  They're not crazy or stupid -- there's a darned good reason they're working so hard to build robots with legs to accompany troops or navigate in buildings.




Anywhere your four wheeler can go, a goat can go better. 

You're spot on.  We can sit here bragging about the engineering superiority of tracks or wheels, but when those get stuck, we get out and walk.


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## BookBarbarian (May 13, 2020)

Gadget said:


> See this I didn't quite get in the show.  The Jedi at the time are still a living memory.  Even if they were super rare such that the average Joe would never meet them, they were an integral part of the galaxy for millennia.  From all the legends that would have grown up around them (the way everyone knows what a leprechaun or mermaid is) to the propaganda (Palpatine was subtly undermining them all through the Clone Wars, creating a perception that it was a "Jedi War").  That stuff gets ingrained in public culture and psyche over the centuries, having ever seen or met a Jedi or not.  There were such things a holonet reports and such.  Sure, some people, particularly the younger generation, might regard that as 'a bunch of hooey' or some such, but to be completely baffled by the mention of them or their powers?
> 
> The Mandalorian artificer knows vague legends about the Jedi-Mandalorian war from thousands of years ago, but nothing about more recent events in the galaxy which prominently featured them and included Mandalor?



Fair points all around. 

With how The Clone Wars wrapped up it will be interesting to see how things are tackled in Season 2 of the Mandalorian.


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## Sabathius42 (May 13, 2020)

There isn't any sort of logic that can properly explain the quickness with which jedi became "legend" by the time period of Ep.4.  Even if the the Empire did nothing but stamp out any mention of them in records...there are just so many people left alive that knew of them in their own lifetimes.

Han Solo:  I've been from one end of this galaxy and never seen any evidence of this magical force.
Obi-Wan:  _Mentions Yoda_
R2D2:  Beeps animatedly and shows a holo of Yoda projected on the chessboard.
Chewbacca:  RAAAAAWR (translates to "Hey, he was cool.  I gave that guy piggyback rides.")
Luke:  Is there anyone here that DOESN'T know this dude?


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## Flamestrike (May 17, 2020)

ardoughter said:


> The Battle of Endor changes the Imperials from scary bad guys to incompetent idiots.




It is the only movie in the entire Skywalker saga (in the entire canon in fact) where a Stormtrooper manages to actually _hit _a main character (Leia, shot in the shoulder).


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## Zardnaar (May 17, 2020)

Flamestrike said:


> It is the only movie in the entire Skywalker saga (in the entire canon in fact) where a Stormtrooper manages to actually _hit _a main character (Leia, shot in the shoulder).




 They were his best troops


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 18, 2020)

Any storm trooper gets hit in the pinky toe, they die. If a main character gets hit in the shoulder with no armor whatsoever, they are fine.


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 18, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Any storm trooper gets hit in the pinky toe, they die. If a main character gets hit in the shoulder with no armor whatsoever, they are fine.




That's because main characters have a lot more hit points.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 18, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> That's because main characters have a lot more hit points.



And all have Unarmored Defense.


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## Dioltach (May 18, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Any storm trooper gets hit in the pinky toe, they die. If a main character gets hit in the shoulder with no armor whatsoever, they are fine.




Plot armour is the best armour.


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## Eltab (May 18, 2020)

Dioltach said:


> Plot armour is the best armour.



So is an ... err umm ... Force Field.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 18, 2020)

The Force is the best plot-convenience tactic in nearly any book or movie series. You can do anything, and then say, "The Force wanted it to happen" and then it's justified.


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## Deset Gled (May 20, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> The Force is the best plot-convenience tactic in nearly any book or movie series. You can do anything, and then say, "The Force wanted it to happen" and then it's justified.




I thought the Hellmouth in Buffy worked great for this as well.

"Why are there so many monsters in this small town?  Why are weird things always happening here?  How did all these things converge here and now?"
"They're all drawn to the Hellmouth.  It's a mystical thingy that draws all weird and plot related stuff to Sunnydale."
"Oh, yeah.  That makes sense.  Carry on.  ... But, then, why does so much weird stuff happen to Angel in LA?  Isn't the other Hellmouth in Cleveland?"
"Shut up."


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## Ryujin (May 20, 2020)

Deset Gled said:


> I thought the Hellmouth in Buffy worked great for this as well.
> 
> "Why are there so many monsters in this small town?  Why are weird things always happening here?  How did all these things converge here and now?"
> "They're all drawn to the Hellmouth.  It's a mystical thingy that draws all weird and plot related stuff to Sunnydale."
> ...




Well L.A. doesn't need a Hellmouth to attract weirdness. It's got Hollywood.


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## Zardnaar (May 20, 2020)

Ryujin said:


> Well L.A. doesn't need a Hellmouth to attract weirdness. It's got Hollywood.




Much the same thing really.


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## Wolfpack48 (May 21, 2020)

Having grown up with the originals (ANH at 12) I still feel the first movie was the most groundbreaking, the most visionary, the best story arc.  It's the most complete movie, and the opening sequence all through Tatooine is absolute magic.  ESB was a close 2nd and there are even great things in Return, especially Luke/Vader/Emperor.

For the prequels, I wanted an older more Han-like Anakin, and more buddy banter and friendship with Obiwan. Better relationships and characters would have made everything about the prequels better.

The sequels are barely Star Wars. A friend of mine puts it well: Star Wars is best when it imitates a genre. It's at its worst when it tries to imitate Star Wars. That's why I still think the Han Solo movie is the best of the new ones (Heist genre). I like it better than Rogue One. Oh, and The Mandalorian (finally) gets things right (Western genre).


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 21, 2020)

Slogan of both second trilogies: "Barely Star Wars!"


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2020)

Thrawn Trilogy sequel looks even better now. They needed to do that 1995 though. Didn't happen.

Good Star Wars us always in the writing. They've gone with recycled rehash badly done. Mandalorian is going down that path season 2 from the look of it.

Member berries. Member Fett he was great, let's stick someone else in his armor. Looks like they're gonna whitewash him as well lol.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 21, 2020)

Wolfpack48 said:


> Having grown up with the originals (ANH at 12) I still feel the first movie was the most groundbreaking, the most visionary, the best story arc.  It's the most complete movie, and the opening sequence all through Tatooine is absolute magic.  ESB was a close 2nd and there are even great things in Return, especially Luke/Vader/Emperor.
> 
> For the prequels, I wanted an older more Han-like Anakin, and more buddy banter and friendship with Obiwan. Better relationships and characters would have made everything about the prequels better.
> 
> The sequels are barely Star Wars. A friend of mine puts it well: Star Wars is best when it imitates a genre. It's worst when tries to imitate Star Wars. That's why I still think the Han Solo movie is the best of the new ones (Heist genre). I like it better than Rogue One. Oh, and The Mandalorian (finally) gets things right (Western genre).



I enjoyed Rogue One, but maybe for the same reason you enjoyed Han Solo - it wasn't imitating Star Wars either - it's basically a war movie.


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2020)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I enjoyed Rogue One, but maybe for the same reason you enjoyed Han Solo - it wasn't imitating Star Wars either - it's basically a war movie.




I thought Rogue One was really good and Solo was better than the flak it got. 

 They were original movies set against the backdrop of Star Wars. 

 A few lines could be cut to improve it.


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## Wolfpack48 (May 21, 2020)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I enjoyed Rogue One, but maybe for the same reason you enjoyed Han Solo - it wasn't imitating Star Wars either - it's basically a war movie.



I haven't laughed as much in a Star Wars movie since ANH as I did during Han Solo.  Really great characters - Han was well cast, Amelia Clarke, Woody Harrelson, Donald Glover as Lando, Chewy as a real character instead of a sidekick, all really fell into their roles.  Even the villains were interesting.  Great dialogue, and a fun story, and thank god no R2D2 and 3PO.  Great new droids!  It's the first movie I've seen that felt truly unburdened by all the Star Wars movies of the past.  It felt like Star Wars because it wasn't trying so damn hard to be Star Wars.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 21, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> I thought Rogue One was really good and Solo was better than the flak it got.



Yeah, Solo a Star Wars Story is better than it's given credit for. It's infinitely better than the Last Jedi, and I liked Rogue One more than the Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker.


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## Snarf Zagyg (May 21, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah, Solo a Star Wars Story is better than it's given credit for.




Yeah. It's got great dialogue, too!

Nick Solo: Qi'Ra. That's an unusual name.

Qi'Ra : It's a German name. It means 'she whose bosoms defy gravity'.

Nick Solo: I'm pleased to meet you. My name's Nick.

Qi'Ra : Nick? What does that mean?

Nick Solo: Oh, nothing. My dad thought of it while he was shaving. Wait until I tell you how I got my last name.


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## BookBarbarian (May 21, 2020)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Yeah. It's got great dialogue, too!
> 
> Nick Solo: Qi'Ra. That's an unusual name.
> 
> ...



I know a little German, he's right over there


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## Zardnaar (May 21, 2020)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> Yeah, Solo a Star Wars Story is better than it's given credit for. It's infinitely better than the Last Jedi, and I liked Rogue One more than the Force Awakens and Rise of Skywalker.




 Yeah I think I'm in that boat as well.


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