# Optimizing Volo PC races



## Growing Brains

I'd like to start the discussion.
 Aasimar: Cha + wisdom or con or str. very flavorful, pally lite type powers. I think Fallen and scourge make the best pallies given the stats. Flying protectors seem more like Clerics of Favored Souls. Optimizing 3rd level flight is an idea.

Firblog: Wis & dex, I'm not sure how to optimize powerful build? Disguise self is great for exploration and hidden step is a get out dodge free card but I don't see much to optimize.

Lizardfolk: Wis & Con, a bite unarmed attack, a vampiric bonus action attack, +3 natural armor, and a swim speed. maybe a war cleric, or a druid.

Tabaxi: Dex + Cha, Unarmed strike claws (str based on a dex race), double movement, a climb speed. maybe a monk/rogue.

Tritons: +1 to three stats, two melee ones (str & Con) and cha. A swim speed and some not very optimal spells round out the package. Seems like another pally. 

Bugbears: Str & Dex, reach, surprise attack. Probably an awesome new ranger or rogue,

Goblins: Dex and Con, + bonus action disengage/hide, anything Dex build but rogue

Hobgoblins: con+Int, and a save bonus. Seems like a wizard gish/eldritch knight type

Yaunti: Cha and Int, poison immunity, magic resistance. yummy but tough stats unless pure arcane caster. 

There are other races but none seemed too optimal to me but what do you think?
-Boomer


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## slightlyprime

kobold for moon druid, you won't have sunlight sensitivity in wildshape but will still get pack tactics

Bugbear screams barbarian to me, also goblins would make good rogues.


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## Yunru

I think a link to where they've been spoiled would be helpful


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## slightlyprime

Yunru said:


> I think a link to where they've been spoiled would be helpful




not sure if allowed to post link, if not mods can delete it, also i fpund it on the second page from googling volos guide races lol wasn't difficult. 
https://sli.mg/a/EvUWsI


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## Yunru

YES! SUCK IT JC! Natural Weapons make Unarmed Strikes confirmed!


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## Yunru

slightlyprime said:


> Bugbear screams barbarian to me, also goblins would make good rogues.



Ironically Bugbears would love to be assassins. Maybe Assassin Barbarians (A build I personally love). 7 Levels or Barbarian for Advantage on Initiative, plus other goodies, combined with the base Assassin, topped off with an extra 2d6 1/combat against a surprised foe?

They also make good defenders, being able to threaten up to 15 feet away with a reach weapon (for the above build, a whip).


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## faria

Yunru said:


> YES! SUCK IT JC! Natural Weapons make Unarmed Strikes confirmed!




Minotaur monk confirmed?


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## Yunru

faria said:


> Minotaur monk confirmed?



I was thinking more Kung-fu Panda.


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## RCanine

I generally like non-obvious builds that optimize for 1-10; not perfectly optimal, but interesting:

* Goblin barbarian wielding a lance or rapier + shield when not raging (14/16/16/8/12/8) uses nimble escape to avoid disadvantage from the lance.
* Hobgoblin rogue with level 1 access to Heavy Crossbow & Whip
* Yuan-ti Pureblood's Moon druid has a ton of synergy (magic saves, high mental stats for skills, immune to poison)

Most of the races follow obvious optimization patterns from existing ones — orc: half orc, kenku: wood elf, etc.

Most interesting are possible Aasimar, Triton, Bugbear, Tabaxi and Lizardfolk combos, mostly because they are the most different, design-wise.Of the races, I think Lizardfolk are the most interesting because they like four stats (STR, DEX, CON and WIS), leading to some interesting builds.

Of note too are that if you're playing AL, using Volo's as your PHB+1 adds some interesting monsters for companions/wild shape options; of note are Quetzalcoatlus (CR2 flyer), Stench Kow (Darkvision, Resistances, Charge, poison aura), velociraptor (multiattack) and cranium rats (illumination, scrying prevention). For that reason alone I'm making a Goblin Land druid that (mistakenly) thinks she's a Barghest.



Yunru said:


> YES! SUCK IT JC! Natural Weapons make Unarmed Strikes confirmed!




I wouldn't get too excited; all of these abilities _explicitly_ call themselves unarmed strikes, and it's unclear (DM call) whether they synergize or conflict with _Martial Arts_ for monks.


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## Yunru

RCanine said:


> I generally like non-obvious builds that optimize for 1-10; not perfectly optimal, but interesting:
> 
> * Goblin barbarian wielding a lance or rapier + shield when not raging (14/16/16/8/12/8) uses nimble escape to avoid disadvantage from the lance.
> * Hobgoblin rogue with level 1 access to Heavy Crossbow & Whip
> * Yuan-ti Pureblood's Moon druid has a ton of synergy (magic saves, high mental stats for skills, immune to poison)
> 
> Most of the races follow obvious optimization patterns from existing ones — orc: half orc, kenku: wood elf, etc.
> 
> Most interesting are possible Aasimar, Triton, Bugbear, Tabaxi and Lizardfolk combos, mostly because they are the most different, design-wise.Of the races, I think Lizardfolk are the most interesting because they like four stats (STR, DEX, CON and WIS), leading to some interesting builds.
> 
> Of note too are that if you're playing AL, using Volo's as your PHB+1 adds some interesting monsters for companions/wild shape options; of note are Quetzalcoatlus (CR2 flyer), Stench Kow (Darkvision, Resistances, Charge, poison aura), velociraptor (multiattack) and cranium rats (illumination, scrying prevention). For that reason alone I'm making a Goblin Land druid that (mistakenly) thinks she's a Barghest.
> 
> 
> 
> I wouldn't get too excited; all of these abilities _explicitly_ call themselves unarmed strikes, and it's unclear (DM call) whether they synergize or conflict with _Martial Arts_ for monks.



If it's an unarmed strike, it synergizes, and there's no reason for them to be the exception given they could of just gone the route of the Aarakocra.


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## RCanine

Yunru said:


> If it's an unarmed strike, it synergizes, and there's no reason for them to be the exception given they could of just gone the route of the Aarakocra.




Well, Volo's says it's an unarmed strike that does 1d6+Strength mod piercing or 1d4+Strength mod slashing.

I think a DM could right (but lame) to declare you get _either_ the Martial Arts benefit or the racial, and cannot max-and-match them — like how AC calculations work.

The wording doesn't clarify how these interactions work, so while it's clear how players want it to work, no one can use RAW as a club on this one; you'll need to talk to your DM.


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## Yunru

RCanine said:


> Well, Volo's says it's an unarmed strike that does 1d6+Strength mod piercing or 1d4+Strength mod slashing.
> 
> I think a DM could right (but lame) to declare you get _either_ the Martial Arts benefit or the racial, and cannot max-and-match them — like how AC calculations work.
> 
> The wording doesn't clarify how these interactions work, so while it's clear how players want it to work, no one can use RAW as a club on this one; you'll need to talk to your DM.



I fail to see how a DM could argue that point successfully.

'When you use your attack action to make an attack with a monk weapon or Unarmed Strike, you may use your bonus action to make an attack with your Unarmed Strike.'
'When you make an attack with a monk weapon or Unarmed Strike, you may instead use your martial arts damage die.'


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## RCanine

Yunru said:


> I fail to see how a DM could argue that point successfully.




A DM doesn't need to argue any point successfully.


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## Yunru

RCanine said:


> A DM doesn't need to argue any point successfully.



Sure, if they want to be a tyrant DM ruling with an iron fist. But when they so "no", they're going to lose players if they don't have a logical reason for it.


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## zaratan

Tabaxi with boots of speed will get spped x3 or x4? 

Aasimar with sentinel feat looks awesome, with the barbarian option in the new UA too

Hobgoblin wizard with spell sniper and whip for booming blade. If he get some Cha, would be a great sorlock.
Bugbear rogue with spell sniper for booming blade looks good too.
Kobouts and goblins looks like great archers to me

Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk


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## RulesJD

zaratan said:


> Tabaxi with boots of speed will get spped x3 or x4?
> 
> *Aasimar with sentinel feat looks awesome*, with the barbarian option in the new UA too
> 
> Hobgoblin wizard with spell sniper and whip for booming blade. If he get some Cha, would be a great sorlock.
> Bugbear rogue with spell sniper for booming blade looks good too.
> Kobouts and goblins looks like great archers to me
> 
> Enviado de meu SM-G900MD usando Tapatalk




That doesn't work how you think it does.  It's not Sneak Attack.  It's limited to once on "your turn" not once "per turn".  So you don't get the extra damage on Sentinel strikes.


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## zaratan

RulesJD said:


> That doesn't work how you think it does.  It's not Sneak Attack.  It's limited to once on "your turn" not once "per turn".  So you don't get the extra damage on Sentinel strikes.




True, I was thinking in radiant comsumption, just to avoid enemies move away, but is only in the end of aasimar's turn too.


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## Zipster

Is it just me, or am I missing Bugbear, Yuanti, Hobgoblins, minotaurs and other races mentioned here as playable races in Volo?

And, why has no one mentioned the Kenko? Sorry - I'm just having too much fun thinking of a Kenko bard...


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## Caliban

Zipster said:


> Is it just me, or am I missing Bugbear, Yuanti, Hobgoblins, minotaurs and other races mentioned here as playable races in Volo?
> 
> And, why has no one mentioned the Kenko? Sorry - I'm just having too much fun thinking of a Kenko bard...




Chapter 2: Character Races  

Page 118: Monstrous Adventurers - Bugbear, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold, Orc, and Yaun-Ti


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## RCanine

I personally think Yuan-to Pureblood is a great race for Moon druid.

Bugbears feel OP to me. They're a great fit for most melee classes without any creativity involved.


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## Yunru

RCanine said:


> I personally think Yuan-to Pureblood is a great race for Moon druid.
> 
> Bugbears feel OP to me. They're a great fit for most melee classes without any creativity involved.



I think you misspelled "Kobold" 
Moon Druid removes practically all the drawbacks.


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## RCanine

Yunru said:


> I think you misspelled "Kobold"
> Moon Druid removes practically all the drawbacks.




Pack tactics is nice and all, but resistance to magic, immunity to poison and a couple free spells are _really_ nice.


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## Yunru

RCanine said:


> Pack tactics is nice and all, but resistance to magic, immunity to poison and a couple free spells are _really_ nice.



Beg, Cower and Grovel man, Beg, Cower and Grovel.
Asides from being an amusing mental image, it's a really strong ability.


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## FormerlyHemlock

RCanine said:


> Bugbears feel OP to me. They're a great fit for most melee classes without any creativity involved.




Are you referring to the reach advantage or something else?

The reach advantage is all right but not really impressive as far as I can see. Even if you play with battlegrids, it's not a qualitative advantage, just an incremental thing that makes melee kiting slightly easier. But Mobile feat is clearly better.


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## Blue

Hemlock said:


> Are you referring to the reach advantage or something else?
> 
> The reach advantage is all right but not really impressive as far as I can see. Even if you play with battlegrids, it's not a qualitative advantage, just an incremental thing that makes melee kiting slightly easier. But Mobile feat is clearly better.




There's an opportunity cost to taking a feat.  I don't think you can say that the Mobile feat is better than the Bugbear reach PLUS some other feat instead of Mobile?


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## FormerlyHemlock

Blue said:


> There's an opportunity cost to taking a feat.  I don't think you can say that the Mobile feat is better than the Bugbear reach PLUS some other feat instead of Mobile?




There's an opportunity cost to selecting Bugbear as your race, too.

I can't think of a scenario where <Bugbear reach> is better than <Mobile human>, so when someone says Bugbears are OP I'm curious whether they're referring to some other part of the Bugbear package, like the Str bonus or Darkvision. Or maybe they have some new and better way to use Reach. I dunno, that's why I'm asking--I come to these boards for new insights, and maybe this person had one.


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## Yunru

Hemlock said:


> There's an opportunity cost to selecting Bugbear as your race, too.
> 
> I can't think of a scenario where <Bugbear reach> is better than <Mobile human>, so when someone says Bugbears are OP I'm curious whether they're referring to some other part of the Bugbear package, like the Str bonus or Darkvision. Or maybe they have some new and better way to use Reach. I dunno, that's why I'm asking--I come to these boards for new insights, and maybe this person had one.



Rapier rogues with reach? 

Defender-style Barbarian/Rogues with 15ft reach whips.

Etc.


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## Zene

I feel like RAW, grappling with a bugbear may be OP. Going to test play it out soon. But in theory, if I'm reading the rules right, a bugbear can grapple from an extra 5' away. If the grapple succeeds, the target has 0 movement until they break free. But the bugbear is still not adjacent, so they can't attack their grappler unless they have reach (or break the grapple). Seems kinda silly, and as a DM I would at least allow an attack at disadvantage (swiping at the bugbear's arms instead of better targets). But RAW I don't think they can.


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## FormerlyHemlock

Yunru said:


> Rapier rogues with reach?




There's only a narrow set of circumstances in which that's better than Mobile, and a broad range of circumstances under which it's worse.

If the enemy starts 10' away, the bugbear rapier rogue can stab him from 10' away and then move 30' and Hide. The Mobile human rogue can move 5' toward the enemy, stab him from 5' away, and then move 35' and Hide. Same result.

If the enemy starts 5' away, the bugbear rapier rogue is in trouble. He can stab him from 5' away, then Cunning Action: Disengage and move 30' away, but the enemy can just pursue him and attack again. The Mobile human can stab the enemy from 5' away and then move 40' away.

It's pretty hard to come up with a corner case where the Bugbear is better. (One example: three Tiny enemies in the same 5' square 10' away at the start of the turn. The Bugbear Rogue can attack and fall back without being attacked back; the Mobile human will get attacked even if he does an offhand attack. But that is an extreme corner case and relies on exact positioning at the start of the turn.)



> Defender-style Barbarian/Rogues with 15ft reach whips.




What is the actual scenario where an extra 5' of reach is better than an extra 10' of movement, ability to ignore difficult terrain when Dashing, and immunity to opportunity attacks from creatures you've attacked? How do you leverage that 15' reach whip into a tactical advantage instead of just a capability?


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## Vulf

Until there is some faq/errata saying these don't work...

Lizardfolk Druids: All your wild shape forms gain a +3 bonus to AC or improve their "natural armor" to +3.

Lizardfolk Monks: You can leave wisdom at 12 or 14 and pump everything into Dex and Con. Better unarmed damage early on, and the ability to choose between bludgeoning, slashing or piercing.

Lizardfolk Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Beefy Dex striker with better than average AC and lots of attacks.


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## Yunru

Hemlock said:


> There's only a narrow set of circumstances in which that's better than Mobile, and a broad range of circumstances under which it's worse.
> 
> If the enemy starts 10' away, the bugbear rapier rogue can stab him from 10' away and then move 30' and Hide. The Mobile human rogue can move 5' toward the enemy, stab him from 5' away, and then move 35' and Hide. Same result.
> 
> If the enemy starts 5' away, the bugbear rapier rogue is in trouble. He can stab him from 5' away, then Cunning Action: Disengage and move 30' away, but the enemy can just pursue him and attack again. The Mobile human can stab the enemy from 5' away and then move 40' away.
> 
> It's pretty hard to come up with a corner case where the Bugbear is better. (One example: three Tiny enemies in the same 5' square 10' away at the start of the turn. The Bugbear Rogue can attack and fall back without being attacked back; the Mobile human will get attacked even if he does an offhand attack. But that is an extreme corner case and relies on exact positioning at the start of the turn.)
> 
> 
> 
> What is the actual scenario where an extra 5' of reach is better than an extra 10' of movement, ability to ignore difficult terrain when Dashing, and immunity to opportunity attacks from creatures you've attacked? How do you leverage that 15' reach whip into a tactical advantage instead of just a capability?




Because Sentinel. That and you're a defender, you don't want to be moving. In a similar vein, Polearm Master + Sentinel is great on a Bugbear.


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## Yunru

Kobolian Moon Druids: Transform, get into position, Cower, grovel and beg. Next turn take advantage of Pack Tactics.

Seriously, Kobolds suck, but Moon druids remove all weaknesses from it.

... And now I want to play a Kobolian Moon Druid that spends all its time in Wild Shape.


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## FormerlyHemlock

Yunru said:


> Because Sentinel. That and you're a defender, you don't want to be moving. In a similar vein, Polearm Master + Sentinel is great on a Bugbear.




Bugbear doesn't benefit from Sentinel or Polearm Master reaction attack at all, except in the _very_ specialized circumstance of an enemy having Readied to move on your turn.

"Long-limbed: when you make a melee attack *on your turn*, your reach for it is 5 feet greater than normal."

I think this is also what would prevent the "grapple at a distance" thing someone mentioned earlier from working--it doesn't increase the range at which you can _maintain_ a grapple.


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## shadowoflameth

The monk specifies that unarmed strikes or monk weapons use the die given. In the beginning of a monks career that would only be a d4


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## Yunru

shadowoflameth said:


> The monk specifies that unarmed strikes or monk weapons use the die given. In the beginning of a monks career that would only be a d4



It says the Monk _may_. You can always not use the martial arts die.


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## shadowoflameth

That's true. but the horns can use the die.


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## RulesJD

Vulf said:


> Until there is some faq/errata saying these don't work...
> 
> Lizardfolk Druids: All your wild shape forms gain a +3 bonus to AC or improve their "natural armor" to +3.
> 
> Lizardfolk Monks: You can leave wisdom at 12 or 14 and pump everything into Dex and Con. Better unarmed damage early on, and the ability to choose between bludgeoning, slashing or piercing.
> 
> Lizardfolk Monk/Rogue Multiclass: Beefy Dex striker with better than average AC and lots of attacks.




You'd be hard pressed to find a DM that will let you use the "Natural Armor" trait of Lizardfolk to apply while Wild Shaped into a creature with its own "Natural Armor" rating.  Your skin is no longer as tough because your skin is literally no longer a Lizard.  The standard Monk/Barbarian level drip for Druids for Wild Shaped AC applies because it is not based on a "Natural Armor".


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## RCanine

Hemlock said:


> Are you referring to the reach advantage or something else?




Between reach, bonus damage and ability score increase, bugbears have perfect stat synergy with most martial melee classes, and no synergy with others. Compared to lizardfolk and hobgoblins, Bugbears feel overly specialized to excel in a certain role.

What I like about 5E is that rare races like drow, dragonborn and gnomes stay rare because they're not quite as easy to optimize mechanically as the common ones, so they only get played by someone truly in love with the race. Some of the Volo's races do that well, others look so good I'd expect everyone to play them.


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## Vulf

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

How restrictive is wild shape, really?

Would unarmored defense work while shape changed into a bear? A bear's skin is not as tough as a lizard's but somehow it has retained the physiology of a monk or barbarian when it comes to increasing AC?

If the Lizard Folk racial doesn't work while shapeshifted, I do not see how anything does. A panther is not normally resistant to poison like a dwarf, a giant snake doesn't have the biology to resist fire damage like a tiefling. An elven druid in bear form doesn't have the physical ability to be immune to magical sleep.

The intent could be the only racial abilities restricted are the ones that allow you to cast spells.

If a Lizard Folk magically transforms into a bear, it is not outside the realm of reason to think that bear's skin could be denser than the average bear, his fur more coarse and almost scale like. A Dragonborn druid might retain a lustrous red coat of fur that resists fire.


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## zaratan

Vulf said:


> Would unarmored defense work while shape changed into a bear? A bear's skin is not as tough as a lizard's but somehow it has retained the physiology of a monk or barbarian when it comes to increasing AC?




You need to choose unarmored defense OR natural armor. All about that is a DM option, but even with a good DM, the lizardfolk will not add +3 to AC, you'll need to choose between the lizardfolk natural armor OR the beast one. So, if you change to a brown bear your AC will be 13 (13 + 0 dex) instead of 11, as direwolf will be 15 (13 + 2), not 17. As earth elemental you can pick his 17 natural armor or 12 (lizardfolk calculation).


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## RCanine

Vulf said:


> "You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can’t use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."
> 
> How restrictive is wild shape, really?
> 
> Would unarmored defense work while shape changed into a bear? A bear's skin is not as tough as a lizard's but somehow it has retained the physiology of a monk or barbarian when it comes to increasing AC?
> 
> If the Lizard Folk racial doesn't work while shapeshifted, I do not see how anything does. A panther is not normally resistant to poison like a dwarf, a giant snake doesn't have the biology to resist fire damage like a tiefling. An elven druid in bear form doesn't have the physical ability to be immune to magical sleep.
> 
> The intent could be the only racial abilities restricted are the ones that allow you to cast spells.
> 
> If a Lizard Folk magically transforms into a bear, it is not outside the realm of reason to think that bear's skin could be denser than the average bear, his fur more coarse and almost scale like. A Dragonborn druid might retain a lustrous red coat of fur that resists fire.




The only real answer to this is to ask your DM. I, as a DM, would rule that bears do not have lizardfolk scales and therefore do not benefit their natural armor.


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## Vulf

I have seen a chicken with teeth. Genetic atavism is proof that many animals still have the DNA for features they evolved out of, so potentially a bear could have scaly skin since they evolved from scaled creatures. 


Lizardfolk characters will mostly benefit from some multiclass builds. I think I will try a Ranger with a dip into Nature Domain Cleric or Druid. Shillelegh cantrip, Polearm Master, and Dueling fighting style. Using a staff and a shield. By character level 6, you could potentially be delivering 5d8 + 1d4 + 20 damage a round.


Anyway at my DnD table between both groups we looked through the new book and were enjoying the new material. One of our campaigns may be wrapping up soon and there is some interest in an all-monster adventure.


Update: I gave the multiclass Ranger/cleric with 10 str and 16 wisdom a try. Kind of boring not being able to use Hungry Jaws and needing to turn Shillelagh on messes with action economy. Carrying capacity was an issue.

Rebuilt as Barbarian1/Ranger4 using a Greatsword. Feels like it will last longer in melee with 17 ac and rage.

 Dropped wisdom to 14 and used ASI to bring str to 16. Proficiency in Str and Con saves from starting as Barbarian. 7 skills. Defense fighting style. Had to spend adventure money to buy Scale mail and longbow since Barb can't start with them.

Goodberry for utility, starting the day with 30 in your pocket from casting before each long rest to help the party.


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