# New look.



## Argent Silvermage (Feb 22, 2004)

I'm liking the new look. very streamlined.


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## EricNoah (Feb 22, 2004)

Ooh, and here I get to practice moving a thread to meta!


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## Psionicist (Feb 22, 2004)

I like the default blue/grey vBulletin theme. Any chance we can use it? The current theme feels so... bloated.

It looks nice, but there are simply too much "fluff". I am only interested in the text and threads.

Thanks!


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## Umbran (Feb 22, 2004)

Argent Silvermage said:
			
		

> very streamlined.




Odd.  To me the default doesn't look streamlines at all.  It looks cluttered.  While my mind can see organization, visually the stuff seems scattered about.

[edit:  Hm, and having the avatars above the post, rather than on the side, is going to increase page length considerably.  But even if the default isn't my thing, I'm sure MM wil come up with a style I like.  He's good at that ]


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## Grazzt (Feb 22, 2004)

yeah- what Umbran said. Looks a bit cluttered to me too.


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## Argent Silvermage (Feb 22, 2004)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Odd.  To me the default doesn't look streamlines at all.  It looks cluttered.  While my mind can see organization, visually the stuff seems scattered about.
> 
> [edit:  Hm, and having the avatars above the post, rather than on the side, is going to increase page length considerably.  But even if the default isn't my thing, I'm sure MM wil come up with a style I like.  He's good at that ]



Yeah.. I kind of changed my opinion after I actualy went into a post and saw how the actual threads were set up. The front looks great but the actual posts leave something to be desired.  

Also can we bring back the Saphire skin. I liked that.


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## Morrus (Feb 22, 2004)

The themes will take some time.  They all have to be redone by hand.


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## Shalimar (Feb 22, 2004)

Is it possible to put things back the way they were?  I mean with the Poster information on the left hand side so that the posts aren't so clunky and disjointed?


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## Piratecat (Feb 22, 2004)

Like Morrus said, the themes will take some time. I, too, much prefer the avatar and poster info along the far left hand side. It makes it much easier for me to quickly scan down a thread for a particular person.


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## Silver Moon (Feb 22, 2004)

It's human nature for people to resist change and prefer what they are accustomed to.    I'd give it about two weeks, and everybody will then be comfortable with the new look.    Personally, I'll take this version of ENWorld over the one that was available yesterday.


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## Psionicist (Feb 22, 2004)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> It's human nature for people to resist change and prefer what they are accustomed to.    I'd give it about two weeks, and everybody will then be comfortable with the new look.    Personally, I'll take this version of ENWorld over the one that was available yesterday.




But then, yesterday ENW was closed for the public.


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## Silver Moon (Feb 22, 2004)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> But then, yesterday ENW was closed for the public.



Ah, so you agree with me then!


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## Desdichado (Feb 22, 2004)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> It's human nature for people to resist change and prefer what they are accustomed to.    I'd give it about two weeks, and everybody will then be comfortable with the new look.    Personally, I'll take this version of ENWorld over the one that was available yesterday.



True, but some of the older ways things worked were actually better in some ways.  Although it looks like poster info is on the side again, I do miss my Stealth mode.  I may not spend nearly as much time on ENWorld at work as I used to.

Although maybe that's really a good thing...


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## AGGEMAM (Feb 22, 2004)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> It's human nature for people to resist change and prefer what they are accustomed to.    I'd give it about two weeks, and everybody will then be comfortable with the new look.    Personally, I'll take this version of ENWorld over the one that was available yesterday.




I don't know really. I think yesterdays version at least had style unlike this one.

And what the hell happened to the logo?


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## Mirth (Feb 22, 2004)

I'm liking it so far. Like JD, I miss the Stealth mode, but I appreciate all of the hard work that MM put into it.

One noticable difference is that we seem to have lost the ability to find out what the first post of a thread is by scrolling over the thread title. At least, it isn't working for me. Too bad, I really liked that feature.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Feb 22, 2004)

Question - if the boards are working, why does going to the homepage I've got bookmarked take me to a page marked "Boards closed until Sunday evening"? And it's not cached, either.

As an aside, I'm going to have to get used to this new style board...


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## Thomas Heretic (Feb 22, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> I miss the Stealth mode...




Stealth mode is one of the two you have to choose from.  Do you mean you don't like the new stealth mode?


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## Piratecat (Feb 22, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> One noticable difference is that we seem to have lost the ability to find out what the first post of a thread is by scrolling over the thread title. At least, it isn't working for me. Too bad, I really liked that feature.




No, that works just fine for me. It's definitely turned on.*

(*Not in an inappropriate touching sort of way, mind you. But it's on nevertheless.)


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 22, 2004)

I really like the new look and I'm amazed at how quickly it was done!  You people rock! 

My only complaint, if you could really call it that, as I’m not trying to complain, is that it's so hard to tell who is online and who isn't based upon the colored "button" of their posts.  The dark gray and light gray is hard for my poor eyes to digest.


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## Piratecat (Feb 22, 2004)

I have the same problem with the thread icons that indicate whether or not a thread has been viewed. Perhaps Michael can darken/lighten these to make the contrast a little more obvious.

Note, by the way, that the previous (and justified) concerns about clutter were largely addressed when Morrus set the avatars and member info against the left side of the screen again.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 22, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I have the same problem with the thread icons that indicate whether or not a thread has been viewed. Perhaps Michael can darken/lighten these to make the contrast a little more obvious.



That would be awesome. 

Also of note, Piratecat, if I reported your post to the moderators I'm sorry I was just trying to figure out why every other post that I didn't make had the extra exclamation point icon.     I guess you can't report you own post to the moderators...


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## Piratecat (Feb 22, 2004)

Next time, just hover your cursor over the icon.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 22, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Next time, just hover your cursor over the icon.



Hmmm I might do that next time but its not as much fun as clicking and hoping for a good roll on my reflex save.  

(Yes the lesson was learned and yes I lose allot of rogues.)


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## Morrus (Feb 22, 2004)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> True, but some of the older ways things worked were actually better in some ways. Although it looks like poster info is on the side again, I do miss my Stealth mode. I may not spend nearly as much time on ENWorld at work as I used to.
> 
> Although maybe that's really a good thing...



Stealth is available, but not yet finished.


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## Dark Jezter (Feb 22, 2004)

The new look of the forums is quite spiffy-looking, but I've noticed that the forums now don't seem to wrap to my window.  I have a horizontal scroll bar at the bottom of my Internet Explorer.

If it matters, I've got my monitor resolution set to 1280x1024.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 22, 2004)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> If it matters, I've got my monitor resolution set to 1280x1024.



Not me...  Weird mine is only at 1152 x 864.  (Mainly as I never got the above to display correct with my monitor.)


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## Desdichado (Feb 22, 2004)

Yeah, I was automatically in Stealth when I came back, but I couldn't see any posts!  I'll keep checking into that one; I really do prefer it.

As an aside, when I'm typing replies, for some reason the "box" that I'm typing in is really, really wide.  There's nothing in it over on the far right, but about 20% of the screen needs to be scrolled.  Granted, I don't keep my resolution really high (my wife doesn't like the itty-bitty words that way) but that does seem a bit odd.


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 23, 2004)

The only thing I'm really noticing that there seems to be a space at the top of every post... like there's an extra < p > tag at the start of the box where the post is displayed... possibly from where the avatar/info used to be?

Oh, and a couple of the Post Icons are broken = Gamedays, Anime, Comics, and D20 Modern.

Is there anyway that some of us can help with making the styles?


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## Michael Morris (Feb 23, 2004)

Hello all, and thanks for the support.  A few responses in no particular order regarding the themes.

Post Icons: Yes, four appear to be missing.  I'll get them up within the hour b4 I leave this truckstop here in Franklin KY

Post Arrangement:  Having user icons on top or to the left isn't a style contolled option, it's a sitewide option.  Looks like Russ switched it back to the old setting - when last I touched the setting it was set to left 

Stealth: As the most popular theme this will be the first to be reinstated.  I'm going to try to find and download a copy of this for RC4 - of the themes we were using this was the only one I didn't write.

I'll try to get the others up as quickly as feasable - but be aware a theme takes about 6 hours to write and I'm working on other things for Russ at the moment as well.


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## Nifft (Feb 23, 2004)

I hate clutter, but this new look is pretty darn clean.
I especially like what the new [ code ] blocks look like!

 -- N


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## Mirth (Feb 23, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> No, that works just fine for me. It's definitely turned on.*
> 
> (*Not in an inappropriate touching sort of way, mind you. But it's on nevertheless.)




Must be a Mac thing, then. Doesn't work anymore on Safari. Bummer. Still works on NKL though...

Another thing I noticed is that linked images will appear in threads but attached images won't. Any way to solve this one?


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## doghead (Feb 23, 2004)

Mac OS 9.1 with Mozilla and alls well at this end.

My initial was response to the new styles was good, even with the "unfamiliarity" aspect. 

The icon lists in the reply screen has got itself sorted. Not sure about the smily with the bad lipstick job >>  <<. Whats with this guy?   

the head of the dog


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## Michael Morris (Feb 23, 2004)

doghead said:
			
		

> Mac OS 9.1 with Mozilla and alls well at this end.
> 
> My initial was response to the new styles was good, even with the "unfamiliarity" aspect.
> 
> ...




Well, it is the red faced smiley 

The icons list will be resorted soon, sometime, maybe...


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## Thomas Heretic (Feb 23, 2004)

Testing of attachments.

I can attach, what problem are you having exactly with attachments?


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## Nifft (Feb 23, 2004)

Ooo, yeah, uh, system specs: all's fine on Mozilla 1.2.1 on Linux (Red Hat 9.0).

 -- N


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## Psionicist (Feb 23, 2004)

Suggestions:
http://psionicist.online.fr/enw_remove1.gif

http://psionicist.online.fr/enw_remove2.gif


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## jezter6 (Feb 23, 2004)

I dunno about the changes. I really liked the old boards, but I'm sure there's a reason for change.

The only 'issue' I would mention is that it's hella slow over dialup. And that's all I have to use it on. 

Oh...and an edit to boot: the default text is just HUGE. I changed my browser to set it at 90% size and it's still just larger than life...


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## Mirth (Feb 23, 2004)

Thomas Heretic said:
			
		

> Testing of attachments.
> 
> I can attach, what problem are you having exactly with attachments?




They show up as text links and not as images displayed in the thread.


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## Angcuru (Feb 23, 2004)

o_0 !

Weird new look.  Spiffy, but it'll still take some getting used to.


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## Thomas Heretic (Feb 23, 2004)

Mirth said:
			
		

> They show up as text links and not as images displayed in the thread.




That is not a problem per se, but a setting.  You will have to talk Morrus or Piratecat into turning them on for inline display.


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## hong (Feb 23, 2004)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> Suggestions:
> http://psionicist.online.fr/enw_remove1.gif
> 
> http://psionicist.online.fr/enw_remove2.gif



 I agree with most of this.

Nice job overall, though.


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 23, 2004)

Ahh, albino smilies!!!      

I'm guessing these are placeholders of some kind in RC4 or the upgrade... the yellow ones look soooo much better.


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## Mirth (Feb 23, 2004)

Thomas Heretic said:
			
		

> That is not a problem per se, but a setting.  You will have to talk Morrus or Piratecat into turning them on for inline display.




Ah. They were turned on before (unless it was more than one attachment), so I assumed it was a problem and not a choice this time. Thanks for clearing that up TH


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Feb 23, 2004)

I've only been looking around for about 5 minutes, but from what I see, it looks pretty good. 

 Oops, found one problem... The Reply box is showing up with black text on a black background as I type. Can the default box be set back to white/grey/whatever it used to be? I had to change the text color to see what I'm typing. 

 BTW, I'm currently using Mozilla Firebird for my browser, on an WinXP machine. It might be Firebird that is causing the problem. Otherwise, I like the new design! Great work!


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## Brother Shatterstone (Feb 23, 2004)

CL, I believe your issue is that your using the stealth layout and it's not quite done yet.  Swap to the normal and you should be fine.

The only large text I'm seeing is the user names.

As for speed and dial up, that's what I've been using and I'm running just as fast as before and maybe slightly faster than that.


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## Lela (Feb 23, 2004)

Cthulhu's Librarian said:
			
		

> Oops, found one problem... The Reply box is showing up with black text on a black background as I type. Can the default box be set back to white/grey/whatever it used to be? I had to change the text color to see what I'm typing.
> 
> BTW, I'm currently using Mozilla Firebird for my browser, on an WinXP machine. It might be Firebird that is causing the problem. Otherwise, I like the new design! Great work!



 Same thing here.  I had it for  while on Netscape but when I switched to Mozilla it was solved.  It's back again now.

 Mozilla, Win 98.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Feb 23, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> CL, I believe your issue is that your using the stealth layout and it's not quite done yet. Swap to the normal and you should be fine.



 Nope, I'm using the default. 

 Doesn't matter for now, it's getting late and I've got to work in the morning. I'll see how it is when I get to the library tomorrow. Got to have something in the office to do so it looks like I'm busy!


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## Piratecat (Feb 23, 2004)

Re the dark box - see my suggestions in this thread, and see if that helps.  

These smilies stink; we'll swap them out soon enough. In-line images will be turned on after a while, too.


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## William Ronald (Feb 23, 2004)

I like the new look, although it takes a little getting used to.  The text is larger, and fairly easy to read.

Great job, Michael!!!


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## MerakSpielman (Feb 23, 2004)

Honestly,  if I hadn't already known you were upgrading the software, I would have just assumed you set up a new default style. It's much more the same than it is different.

Just imagine if we came back after a hiatus and the boards looked like this. (enter any forum as a guest to see their layout).


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## Scorpio (Feb 23, 2004)

Looks fine to me, guys, good job.


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## dpdx (Feb 23, 2004)

Nod - this looks too slick for words, and I'm set to 1024 x 768. Now to sniff around the new board smell...


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## doghead (Feb 23, 2004)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> The icons list will be resorted soon, sometime, maybe...




Ah. I meant that now they are good. Before they were all lined up like preschoolers - big spaces and random gaps. Now they all lined up like soldiers - very neat and tidy.

The larger post text is good. Much easier to read.

The extra chunky username text is a bit ... er, chunky.

Don't much care for smileys, whatever the colour. Anyone know of a smiley "shoot'em up" application - like that cockroach thing, click on em and "spat!"

All in all there seems to be less on the pages, which is more (good).

the head of the dog.


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## Abraxas (Feb 23, 2004)

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hmmm - interesting look.[/font]
Just some comments

Still getting the "[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]*EN World is closed for software upgrades until Sunday evening. *[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The chat room is still open." page when I follow my link in that I've always used.[/font]

The default font is still very small unless I change my browser setting to ignore the font size specified by the page.

The grey text on dark grey background in the lighter grey box in the reply screen is . . . odd.  The lighter grey box contrast is just a bit too stark.


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## glass (Feb 23, 2004)

It looks pretty good, and seems quicker (with a just a few minutes exploration).

Just one problem: where has the edit button disappeared to?

In case it makes any difference, I am using Safari 1.0.1 on Mac OS X 10.2.8.


glass.


EDIT: Don't worry, I've found it.


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## Argent Silvermage (Feb 23, 2004)

Psionicist said:
			
		

> Suggestions:
> 
> http://psionicist.online.fr/enw_remove2.gif



You want me removed?    
And I always thought you were so nice.


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## Mirth (Feb 23, 2004)

glass said:
			
		

> It looks pretty good, and seems quicker (with a just a few minutes exploration).
> 
> Just one problem: where has the edit button disappeared to?
> 
> ...




Wanna help a Mac brutha out then? I can't seem to find it.


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## Cthulhu's Librarian (Feb 23, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Re the dark box - see my suggestions in this thread, and see if that helps.



 Thanks PC, I'll give that a try at home tonight. Everything seems to be fine here at work.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 23, 2004)

Some of the things I like...

Not having a "new thread" icon when reading a thread. The number of times I've accidentally hit "new thread" when I wanted "reply to thread" is rather frightening. This handles the problem nicely.

Not having an "edit" button unless I can legitimately edit a post. Again, there are lots of time I've accidentally clicked "edit" when I meant "reply".

Not having a line of icons underneath each thread reply. The new look is much cleaner and nicer to read.

Some of the things I'm not so keen on (and I guess that these could still just be awaiting tweaking of CSS) ...

Bold unread messages in forums. I feel that I'm being shouted at a little. I preferred the previous, subtle way in which you were informed about whether or not you've read a thread.

So, more good than bad so far!

Cheers


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## Mirth (Feb 23, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Not having an "edit" button unless I can legitimately edit a post. Again, there are lots of time I've accidentally clicked "edit" when I meant "reply".




NOW it makes sense. Thanks PS for inadvertantly answering my question


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## Abraxas (Feb 23, 2004)

I want to second Plane Sailing's dislike of the *Bold unread messages* in forums.  I already have to diable the boards default font, and the font I find easiest to read is not easy to read in bold yellow on black.


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## nHammer (Feb 23, 2004)

Looking good.


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## Psionicist (Feb 24, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Some of your suggestions are very good, Psionicist, and I'll certainly look at them.
> 
> Others, I'm not sure sure about.  A few of them suggest that users just check elsewhere for the info; I'm of the opinion that every time you require someone to actively do something to find the info, you reduce the chance that they'll be able to do it.  For example, my grandmother would _never_ think to check someone's profile (or even know that it's possible), but she might like seeing someone's location next to their name - "Oooh!  That nice chap lives in Newport!  I went there for my holidays last year!".
> 
> ...




If only half of my suggestions come true I will be one happy gamer. 

On the other hand we have the current "feature overload", the forum is overwhelming, it feels like Tokyo with everything everywhere.  
If grandmother wants to search the web, I think she will find www.google.com easier to use than www.msn.com, Google is just a small box and a button, whereas MSN is a huge portal with loads of features, text, colors etc. Most people like features, but in the end too many of them will result in annoyance and confusion. 
That said, I do belive you're correct about the information (location etc), I am mostly concerned about links, buttons and everything that does something when you press it.

The best way to solve this problem is probably to create lots of different themes with different levels of features, such as "minimalistic" (read thread, post reply, and that's it), "standard", and "advanced" (lots of features everywhere). I am one of those radical beings who won't touch a computer program if it has too many features, but I can imagine some people here love features. 

I have created a few sample pages without lots of colors and features. Notice pretty much everything is gone. I like it though. 

Index: http://psionicist.online.fr/enwtemp/enw_index.html
A forum index: http://psionicist.online.fr/enwtemp/enw_forum.html
A thread: http://psionicist.online.fr/enwtemp/enw_thread.html


(the stylesheet, if anyone is interested: http://psionicist.online.fr/enwtemp/enw.css PLEASE NOTE! This is not a complete, fully working style sheet. Some things not shown on the pages above aren't fixed, there are still traces of the standard theme in there )


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## Lela (Feb 24, 2004)

Hmmmm, I'd recomend moving the Post Icons back above the text field.  It's no longer possible to quickly press Tab and Enter to be done.  As it is, you need to reach over to the mouse, scroll down, and click.  It's Utility mostly but it would help me (at least) a lot.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 24, 2004)

Lela said:
			
		

> Hmmmm, I'd recomend moving the Post Icons back above the text field.  It's no longer possible to quickly press Tab and Enter to be done.  As it is, you need to reach over to the mouse, scroll down, and click.  It's Utility mostly but it would help me (at least) a lot.




It still actually works with me (pressing tab and the enter) - the fact that focus is no longer on the text entry field seems to do the trick.

Personally I'm glad to see the wall of (to me, useless) post icons below the text area, so I don't have to scroll down to actually reach the input area!

If there was an option to hide the post icons I'd do it like a shot.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 24, 2004)

The things I like about the new look are still in the lead, but if I might be so bold as to mention one other thing that I'm coming to dislike about the new appearance:

thread starters underneath the thread title.

Firstly it extends the list and increases the amount of space to an unwanted degree, making it harder for me to read. Secondly it is much harder to scan down a list of threads for ones started by people whose opinion I'm particularly interested in.

Cheers


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## Piratecat (Feb 24, 2004)

I dislike that, too; it makes it more difficult to quickly scan threads.


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## Davelozzi (Feb 24, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> These smilies stink; we'll swap them out soon enough.




Good.  I've been looking around for a holy symbol for the past few days so I could turn 'em.


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## Lela (Feb 24, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> It still actually works with me (pressing tab and the enter) - the fact that focus is no longer on the text entry field seems to do the trick.
> 
> Personally I'm glad to see the wall of (to me, useless) post icons below the text area, so I don't have to scroll down to actually reach the input area!
> 
> If there was an option to hide the post icons I'd do it like a shot.




I would too.

It might be a Mozilla/Netscape thing (anyone else notice this?).  I'm on an IE computer right now and I just need to click Tab twice.  I'll double check and see if it's still a problem at home later.

Assuming they weren't hidden, perhaps they could just be moved down below the "Submit Reply" are along with the rest of the options.


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