# [TRAILER] Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker



## Legatus Legionis (Oct 22, 2019)

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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

Looks pretty lots of throwbacks to  better trilogies.

Y wings, Rey near a part of DS similar to Obi's death star part. Amphibious throwback star destroyers.

The nostalgia is strong in this one.


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## Hriston (Oct 22, 2019)

So... Palpatine’s in this? I always thought that was the only way you could do a sequel.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

Hriston said:


> So... Palpatine’s in this? I always thought that was the only way you could do a sequel.




Yeah they didn't have time to develop a new villain.


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## Legatus Legionis (Oct 22, 2019)

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## Mallus (Oct 22, 2019)

There was a space horse cavalry charge across the deck of a Stardestroyer...

... if I had doubts, they are gone!


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

Mallus said:


> There was a space horse cavalry charge across the deck of a Stardestroyer...
> 
> ... if I had doubts, they are gone!




I wondered if that was a homage to one of the old Ewok movies. Been to long.


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## ccs (Oct 22, 2019)

Mallus said:


> There was a space horse cavalry charge across the deck of a Stardestroyer...
> 
> ... if I had doubts, they are gone!




On the + side, at least that's something we haven't seen before.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

ccs said:


> On the + side, at least that's something we haven't seen before.




It did look cool.

You can also clearly see superlasers in the ISDs. Just wondering if the 1st Order Resurgent class is still going to be a thing.


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## Deset Gled (Oct 22, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Is anyone excited for this film?




Yes.


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## Dioltach (Oct 22, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> A part of me is hoping they make an "end credit scene" for the first time in Star Wars history, and have a younger (post ROJ) Luke Skywalker wake up from a nightmare.  A second figure comes to console Luke, saying if was only a nightmare.  To which Luke replies, "Thanks, Mara Jade.  I am glad it never happened."




Change that to Darth Vader and the Emperor, _then_ you have an ending!


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## Morrus (Oct 22, 2019)

We have opening night midnight tickets first showing booked!


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## Morrus (Oct 22, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Is anyone excited for this film?




Millions, I suspect.



> Is it nothing but a cut/paste/montage of previous scenes from the other episodes?




Dunno. Haven't seen it.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

Watched it a few more times, incredible visuals quite liked the music as well.

There's a lot of throwbacks. Y wings, XWings, Tantive IV,  classic Star destroyers by itself the trailer is good.

But....

Questions. Some amount of time has passed but the resistance was down a single ship. It's hinted there's more out there but it's mighty convenient if they can whistle up a new fleet while Palpatine has done the same thing.

Makes the previous two movies semi pointless.

Have they sidelined the 1st Order or is it really the Empire? 

Visuals of planets looked great but we've seen desert, forest, ice world's before.

Submersible Star Destroyers are a bit silly. And they have superlasers. The Resurgence class is supposed to have a ridiculous amount of firepower have they obsoleted them.

Threepios line fall flat since they didn't develop him much in the previous two. In the originals Luke and artoo were his friends.

They're pushing classic looking ships and world's but idk how they will tie all this together. Is there a good way to wrap up the first order that's not rushed or invalidates previous movies and new canon.

Why smash the heroes flat if you just reverse course. Sure the rebels got smacked down in ESB but they evacuated band massed the fleet at the end if the movie.

Breaking out old equipment makes sense but that was a large fleet.

  So yeah it's all gonna be in the execution. Visuals are great, Rey's force jump I liked it was restrained makes sense now she's had training. Rey and Kylo looked good on the Deathstar wreckage. Ice ocean planet looks good, submersible ISD was a bit silly.

Massive fleets a bit over the top but execution could work otherwise it might be rushed a'la GoT. If everyone can pull that stuff out as needed it may come across as a bit stupid.

Space horses might be over the top as well but depends if it's in space or on a dock or ground.

Looks great but how it fits together and over the top are the big concerns. By over the top I mean bigger and moar compared to the originals eg Star Killer Base. Will they Michael Bey it? How coherent will it be or will it be 3 films with the same characters.


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## R_J_K75 (Oct 22, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> A part of me is hoping they make an "end credit scene" for the first time in Star Wars history, and have a younger (post ROJ) Luke Skywalker wake up from a nightmare. A second figure comes to console Luke, saying if was only a nightmare. To which Luke replies, "Thanks, Mara Jade. I am glad it never happened."
> [/QUOTE
> 
> Replace Luke Skywalker with Bob Newhart as Dick Lowden and now were talking.


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## trappedslider (Oct 22, 2019)

i swear some of the comments in this thread make me wish that Disney had waited two to three generations in real time before doing anything with the SW IP....

I'm excited for this movie and do plan to show up with my lightsaber.


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## Umbran (Oct 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Amphibious throwback star destroyers.




It isn't necessarily "amphibious" in design.  It may just have been sunken.  Rising from the water is strong imagery for resurgence.


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## Salthorae (Oct 22, 2019)

Hriston said:


> So... Palpatine’s in this? I always thought that was the only way you could do a sequel.



My biggest disappointment is that Palpatine is in it. I hope that they make it work. 

That trailer gives me hope... but then so many trailers do...


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## Zaukrie (Oct 22, 2019)

After this one, I hope we finally get new stories.....and go away from the past. There is an entire galaxy of people......IT IS TIME TO MOVE ON.


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## Hriston (Oct 22, 2019)

Salthorae said:


> My biggest disappointment is that Palpatine is in it. I hope that they make it work.
> 
> That trailer gives me hope... but then so many trailers do...



I have mixed feelings about it. Back when I watched the Clone Wars episode in which it was revealed that Darth Maul didn’t die, I realized that Palpatine probably hadn’t either and that the only reason to do a sequel to the original trilogy was if he came back. Otherwise, how is it a continuation of the same story? Probably why the first two movies (Episodes 7 and 8) have seemed to be pointlessly flailing around.


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## Salthorae (Oct 22, 2019)

Hriston said:


> I have mixed feelings about it. Back when I watched the Clone Wars episode in which it was revealed that Darth Maul didn’t die, I realized that Palpatine probably hadn’t either and that the only reason to do a sequel to the original trilogy was if he came back. Otherwise, how is it a continuation of the same story? Probably why the first two movies (Episodes 7 and 8) have seemed to be pointlessly flailing around.




I haven't felt that about the first two movies personally, but I see the point. I knew it was a possibility given a) he came back in the EU when that was a thing and b) ALL of the call-backs and returning OT characters who have populated this film. It makes sense that ultimately the BBEG from the OT would show his wrinkly face as well. 

It's just a bit of a disappointment. 

It could still work. 

I was just very much looking forward to the culmination and clash between Rey and Kylo against the backdrop of the Resistance/First Order battle a la Return of the Jedi. They look like they're still doing that, but it doesn't seem to be the main FOCUS. Which will be Palpatine. 

We'll see!


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## Istbor (Oct 22, 2019)

Looks good to me so far. Pretty excited. Hoping to get to see this in a free early viewing through work as I had with the rest of the new Trilogy.

Also, I think the cavalry charge is on the newly rising Star Destroyers, so likely still in atmosphere. Regardless, this looks visually stunning.


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## RSIxidor (Oct 22, 2019)

The one shot with just so many ships has me really excited to see those on screen for probably like twenty seconds.


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## shawnhcorey (Oct 22, 2019)

@1:50 What did Rey and Kylo destroy together? Could it be Palpatine?


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

Umbran said:


> It isn't necessarily "amphibious" in design.  It may just have been sunken.  Rising from the water is strong imagery for resurgence.




They literally have resurgence class Star Destroyers and they have 10 or 20 time the weapons of the ISDs. 

 They're the first order Star Destroyer. 

 It was a great visuals just thought it was a bit silly. The ice ocean planet looked amazing and the iceberg on pause with it's reflection looked a bit like Cloud City. 

 There's a lot of throwbacks to the OT.

 The they can bust out old Y and B wings it would be interesting if they have some old clone wars ships as well like Palps has a Venator or something.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

It's outsold one of the Avenger movies in presales already. Endgame or that other big one.


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## Retreater (Oct 22, 2019)

Just another teaser trailer masquerading as a real preview. There's not enough here of plot or characters to get excited about, in my opinion. Kylo and Rey will fight … again. Poe and Finn will team up to shoot lasers from a vehicle while screaming "woo!" … again. Skimming vehicles like snowspeeders. Chewie in the Millennium Falcon. Sinister old man in a robe. It hits all the familiar beats but really gives me nothing to look forward to yet. 
What the heck is the plot? Drop something in there: "The First Order has found something in the Far Reaches, an old evil we thought had been destroyed...." There's absolutely nothing in this trailer but set pieces, which frankly leaves me concerned about the film.


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## Morrus (Oct 22, 2019)

Retreater said:


> Just another teaser trailer masquerading as a real preview.




What does that even mean?


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

Probably it doesn't give enough information. 

 I suspect the Knights of Ten will underwhelm they'll get chopped to bits by Rey or Palpatine. 

 They're pushing the Emperor hard so how that relates to the first order will be key. 

 They might handwave that like the first order joins him but it's gonna feel rushed since the didn't foreshadow Palpatines survival in the previous two movies. 

 If they rush things to much due to pacing it kind if undermined the previous two find and they've already undermined the RotJ ending.

 How they handle it will be key otherwise you're going to have 3 disjointed films using Star Wars as a back drop.


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## Morrus (Oct 22, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Probably it doesn't give enough information.




Thank goodness. I'm tired of trailers which spoil the film.


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## Kaodi (Oct 22, 2019)

Saw a still on Twitter that suggests one of the ships right behind the Falcon is Hera's ship from Rebels.

Also really intrigued by the frozen throne. Is that Palpatine's throne from RotJ or is it... older? And man, what is Palpatine's plan for Reylo?


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## Retreater (Oct 22, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Thank goodness. I'm tired of trailers which spoil the film.



The Last Jedi didn't set up any future conflict or any stakes. It basically wrapped up everything and closed every door that was open in the saga. I have no idea what could possibly be covered in this film, so I need a little more information. I guess I will wait until the reviews are published.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 22, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Thank goodness. I'm tired of trailers which spoil the film.




Yeah I don't expect much information.

Overall this is a good trailer IMHO. C3P0s line was the main negative.

It's heavy on the special effects and nostalgia, the Falcon has its original dish on it. Keeping Luke's role and the Emperor under wraps is perfectly fine. If you want to know go see the film, that's basically the point of a trailer. 

 Nothing to over the top force wise  ( eg Yoda being Sonic the Hedgehog). Ships might be over the top but execution will matter.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Retreater said:


> The Last Jedi didn't set up any future conflict or any stakes. It basically wrapped up everything and closed every door that was open in the saga. I have no idea what could possibly be covered in this film, so I need a little more information. I guess I will wait until the reviews are published.




This they have to reveal how Palps survived and work in how it relates to the 1st order.

If done well it'll be alright. If done badly we have 3 disjointed films that will be almost stand alone films telling 3 different stories


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## Retreater (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> This they gave to reveal how Palps survived and work in how it relates to the 1st order.
> 
> If done well it'll be alright. If done badly we have 3 disjointed films that will be almost stand alone films telling 3 different stories



Pulling in something from a different trilogy seems like a cheat to me, as it's not something that was set up in the last two films. It would be like "What about that ghost of Darth Maul?" It just doesn't fit and sort of belittles the ending of Return of the Jedi. 
In fact, it is making me mad just thinking about it.


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## ccs (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> How they handle it will be key otherwise you're going to have 3 disjointed films using Star Wars as a back drop.




Well we already have two, so might as well go for the trifecta.


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## Morrus (Oct 23, 2019)

Retreater said:


> Pulling in something from a different trilogy seems like a cheat to me, as it's not something that was set up in the last two films. It would be like "What about that ghost of Darth Maul?" It just doesn't fit and sort of belittles the ending of Return of the Jedi.
> In fact, it is making me mad just thinking about it.



I suggest you don’t go see it.


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## Salthorae (Oct 23, 2019)

Retreater said:


> Pulling in something from a different trilogy seems like a cheat to me, as it's not something that was set up in the last two films. It would be like "What about that ghost of Darth Maul?"




You didn't see Solo through to the end, did you?


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

ccs said:


> Well we already have two, so might as well go for the trifecta.




I think they're trying to avoid that.

TFA I kind of give them a pass, after the prequals playing it safe makes a lot of sense and JJ made a bit of effort in putting in plot threads.

But if they mess it up we will have the remake movie, space chase movie and Palpatines back movie which has the same characters.

The 3 main characters are essentially the same still from the TFA.

Luke went from brash kid to impulsive jedi Padawan to mature Jedi Knight.

Han, rogue, heart of gold, hero, general.

Leia kickass princess, rebel leader, rebel butt kicker.

Because the split the three up in the previous movie and Finn in particular went backwards it's a problem.

So it might end up as a good movie but almost a stand alone with little connection to the other two. 

 If they can just whistle up fleets as needed that's another thing even if they do a time jump.


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## Retreater (Oct 23, 2019)

Salthorae said:


> You didn't see Solo through to the end, did you?



I did. I guess it was just that forgettable to me. Haha.

And yeah, that ending was cheap too. But at least Solo had the feel of a disposable summer flick instead of aiming for the capstone of a pop culture phenomenon.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Advantage Solo had though was Mauls survival was known about although it would have been puzzling to casuals.

 That whole blue explosion thing at the end of Jedi is going to be hard to explain.


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## Salthorae (Oct 23, 2019)

Maybe. I mean... clones are canon.


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## Umbran (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> They literally have resurgence class Star Destroyers and they have 10 or 20 time the weapons of the ISDs.




Dude, most people watching the movies don't know the names of the various classes of Star Destroyers.  I played the RPGs for years, and I don't know the names of the First Order ships.

I meant that rising from the waters was good cinematic visual imagery for a power that was thought departed to be rising again, coming back.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Dude, most people watching the movies don't know the names of the various classes of Star Destroyers.  I played the RPGs for years, and I don't know the names of the First Order ships.
> 
> I meant that rising from the waters was good cinematic visual imagery for a power that was thought departed to be rising again, coming back.




Names are in the other SW media not RPGs. Might be I haven't played the other one.

It is a good visual but might be a little silly.

Even in Star Wars some things are over the top and amphibious Star Destroyers might be one of them.

It's a fairly minor one and the iceberg thing seems to be floating in space not a lake so it gets back to if you want to find out go see the movie. Which is good, trailer did its job.

They also might be buried in ice and burying ISDs has been done before. Rewatching the trailer that might not be water.


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## Legatus Legionis (Oct 23, 2019)

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## Retreater (Oct 23, 2019)

I long considered myself a Star Wars fan, but I realized that I like a very small part of it.
While I loved ANH and ESB, RotJ is kind of hit and miss. 
The early EU is decent stuff, along with some of the games (KotOR comes to mind). 
But I don't like any of the prequels - I think they're awful (even RotS, which has its fans these days). I don't like The Clone Wars animated series (which is supposed to be excellent, but to me, it just doesn't connect). Rebels was okay for a while until I tired of it. Never watched Resistance.
From the Disney Star Wars, Force Awakens piqued my interest. I didn't need Rogue One or Solo. I disliked Last Jedi - but in a different way than I disliked the prequels. 
So I'm here looking at Episode 9 with the realization that maybe I just don't love Star Wars like I thought I did. I loved my idea of Star Wars, based on my childhood and the stories I told in my imagination through action figures, RPGs, video games, etc. The more it has expanded and challenged my original ideas of the franchise, the less I liked it. The "strange" direction of the Clone Wars (not just the series but its presentation in the whole story - it never felt the way it was discussed in the Original Trilogy), the grumpy old man Luke, the absent father Han who left Leia, midichlorians, whiny brat Anakin, Special Edition alterations, and so much more. 
My love for Star Wars had been a defining characteristic of my life. It brought me to mythology, Joseph Campbell, sci-fi/fantasy literature and films, and a general love of world creation and storytelling long before I picked up a D&D manual. 
But maybe it's time to move on?


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## trappedslider (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Names are in the other SW media not RPGs. Might be I haven't played the other one.
> 
> It is a good visual but might be a little silly.
> 
> ...



Not having read anything since Disney took over or watched anything, I didn't even know that the ships had different classes,let alone names.



Retreater said:


> I long considered myself a Star Wars fan, but I realized that I like a very small part of it.
> While I loved ANH and ESB, RotJ is kind of hit and miss.
> The early EU is decent stuff, along with some of the games (KotOR comes to mind).
> But I don't like any of the prequels - I think they're awful (even RotS, which has its fans these days). I don't like The Clone Wars animated series (which is supposed to be excellent, but to me, it just doesn't connect). Rebels was okay for a while until I tired of it. Never watched Resistance.
> ...



It sounds like your expectations didn't mesh well with reality,and yeah if i felt like that I'd move on as well.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Part of it's expectations. ANH and ESB are so good compared with everything else.

There's only a handful of things that get close to them, it's impossible to match IMHO.

The very best of the old EU, best comics, best videogame (KotoR let's face it) can come close most fail.

Terminator has the same problem except they've rehashed the same story 5/6 movies instead of once.

 MCU might have the same problem, everything is going to be compared the the Avengers.


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## ccs (Oct 23, 2019)

Retreater said:


> I long considered myself a Star Wars fan, but I realized that I like a very small part of it.
> While I loved ANH and ESB, RotJ is kind of hit and miss.




Yeah, I know what you mean.
While the ewoks were stupid/annoying....
If Lucas had just left out 2 pieces, Jedi would've been a lot better.  
*1)* Anakin as a redeemed force ghost.  
No.  You do not get to enjoy the victory party after spending the last 20some years terrorizing & murderizing the galaxy.  Not even if you did just throw your more evil boss into a reactor.  And that's BEFORE we ever learn what he did in the prequels+
But this is not as bad as.... 
*2)* Lea being Lukes sister.
Bleh.  Just trying to one up the reveal that Vader is Lukes father.  You want Luke to have a sister?  Fine.  Leave her unnamed & have Luke & R2 heading off into another adventure to find her at the end of Jedi.  



Retreater said:


> So I'm here looking at Episode 9 with the realization that maybe I just don't love Star Wars like I thought I did. I loved my idea of Star Wars, based on my childhood and the stories I told in my imagination through action figures, RPGs, video games, etc. The more it has expanded and challenged my original ideas of the franchise, the less I liked it.




Again, I know what you mean.  The potential of more SW adventures, whatever was/is in our imaginations, is sooo much better than pretty much anything we've actually seen post RotJ.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

ccs said:


> Yeah, I know what you mean.
> While the ewoks were stupid/annoying....
> If Lucas had just left out 2 pieces, Jedi would've been a lot better.
> *1)* Anakin as a redeemed force ghost.
> ...




The few threads left over at end of Jedi.

1. Luke restablishes Jedi
2. Han and Leia's relationship
3. Luke and Leia/Leia Jedi potential.

The old EU covered that. What we got.
Skywalker suffers fail dies. Son suffers, fails dies, grandson suffers fails probably dies.

Star Wars is space opera not grimdark. That's on Disney, expectations are on us.


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## ccs (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> The few threads left over at end of Jedi.
> 
> 1. Luke reestablishes Jedi
> 2. Han and Leia's relationship
> 3. Luke and Leia/Leia Jedi potential.




1. Not compelling enough to see on screen beyond flashbacks/montage.
2. Should never have been in question.  Hero gets the girl, they fly off, live happily ever after.
3. Leia shouldn't have _had_ jedi/force potential. 



Zardnaar said:


> The old EU covered that. What we got.
> Skywalker suffers fail dies. Son suffers, fails dies, grandson suffers fails probably dies.




Look, I know you love the EU.  I don't.  I never really have beyond the random bit.  And I thank God that canon-wise it's been wiped away.
Let's just agree to disagree about the usefulness of the EU.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

ccs said:


> 1. Not compelling enough to see on screen beyond flashbacks/montage.
> 2. Should never have been in question.  Hero gets the girl, they fly off, live happily ever after.
> 3. Leia shouldn't have _had_ jedi/force potential.
> 
> ...




Old EU was mixed but it had really good stuff that did get compared positively to the originals.

Disagree about Leia having force potential unless you think she shouldn't be Luke's sister. I don't have a problem with it although it's an obvious retcon in the OT.


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## Mallus (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It is a good visual but might be a little silly.



Remember when a big space worm tried to bite the Millennium Falcon in two, but it kinda had it coming because it hid in the worms stomach for a while?

Or when a bunch of little WWII dogfighters in space attacked a station as big a moon?

There's precedent for impressive-yet-silly visuals in the franchise...

To be honest, that's a lot of the appeal. Give me fun characters, a bit of mysticism with the serial numbers filed off, at least one robot, and copious amounts of arresting SF imagery like the fever-dreams of an old Flash Gordon serial producer. Bonus points for Kurosawa references & a little chambara w/laser swords.


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## Umbran (Oct 23, 2019)

Mallus said:


> Remember when a big space worm tried to bite the Millennium Falcon in two, but it kinda had it coming because it hid in the worms stomach for a while?
> 
> Or when a bunch of little WWII dogfighters in space attacked a station as big a moon?
> 
> There's precedent for impressive-yet-silly visuals in the franchise...




To a large extent, Star Wars is "space opera", a genre not known for subtle, understated imagery.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Even in Star Wars there is a bit much.

See the OT. Star Destroyer, death star.

Bigger fleet in ESB, bigger fleet RoTJ.

They ramp up to it and even then it's 30 odd ships.

Things I regard as over the top even by Star Wars standards.

Star Killer Base
Yoda Sonic the hedgehog.
Dark Empire
Using the force to detonate a star
Using the force to pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky.

If you go to over the top you're going to have the how do we top this a'la Michael Bey. The trailer isn't there yet but will depend on context.

Visuals are great though. Sound was the best part thats a beautiful score and nails Star Wars.


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## Morrus (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Dark Empire
> Using the force to detonate a star
> Using the force to pull a Star Destroyer out of the sky.




What are you talking about? Those things aren't in Star Wars.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Morrus said:


> What are you talking about? Those things aren't in Star Wars.




Nice attempt 1/5 for effort. They're just not canon never claimed they were.

You yourself have said you played D6 , that's not Star Wars? Mine still has Star Wars written on it.

I know it's a shame Disney a multi billion dollar company often can't do a good storyline an RPG writer from 25 years ago pulled off.

Thank God Star Wars has only been around since 2012 when Disney bought it.

I mean they're really known for their high quality video games since then and novel lines. Excellent storyboards that are in no way a rehash.


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## Morrus (Oct 23, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Nice attempt 1/5 for effort. They're just not canon never claimed they were.
> 
> You yourself have said you played D6 , that's not Star Wars? Mine still has Star Wars written on it.
> 
> ...



Huh?


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## Salthorae (Oct 23, 2019)

Morrus said:


> What are you talking about? Those things aren't in Star Wars.



Pulling the star destroyer down was in the Force Unleashed video games. Can't remember if it was 1 or 2. 

I thought that part was quite fun though


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Huh?




 Those things exist in star Wars, I assumed you were being snarky.

 I was using them as examples of stuff I thought was stupid even by Star Wars standards. 

If you didn't know I apologise.

Outside the movies the 1st Order is presented as quality over quantity in Disney Cannon.  Last movie the resistance was down to a single ship. 

 If they just throw huge fleets into the mix just because it's going to feel a bit silly. Depending on the execution of it. 

 So how they deal with the First Order and Palpatines return is important IMHO.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 23, 2019)

Salthorae said:


> Pulling the star destroyer down was in the Force Unleashed video games. Can't remember if it was 1 or 2.
> 
> I thought that part was quite fun though




Force Unleashed was fun, it was a bit silly though.

Prime example of can you top this relative to the movies.


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## Morrus (Oct 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Those things exist in star Wars, I assumed you were being snarky.
> 
> I was using them as examples of stuff I thought was stupid even by Star Wars standards.
> 
> ...



Sorry, I can’t make head nor tails of what it is you‘re saying.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 24, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Sorry, I can’t make head nor tails of what it is you‘re saying.




You claimed such things don't exist in Star Wars when they do. I even provided a link.

You post came across as snarky, I assume you didn't know because you don't follow the old EU or the new one outside of the movies.

You made an absolute statement and as we all know only the Sith deal in absolutes so I am forced to conclude you are in fact Darth Morrus

Anakin you missed one, he's in England.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 24, 2019)

Edited audio version damn.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 24, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Boy, that scene with all the rebel... resistance ships in close formation is a disaster waiting to happen.  One good shot and the explosion/debri would take out half the fleet!
> 
> The C3PO line, about one last look at his friends...  of those in the room only R2D2 and Chewbacca are his friends.  In the Disney films C3PO never showed to have developed friendships with the newbies of the franchise.



It seems like plausible off-screen development if the the Resistance went from the people aboard the Millenium Falcon at the end of TLJ to the huge fleet in this trailer. 

But it all feels very... disconnected. Of course, it's just a trailer so far, so who knows... I am skeptical, but it's bascially guaranteed I'll watch this movie, too. I need to know how the trilogy ends. Kinda like I needed to know how the New Jedi Order ended in the novel line. :/


----------



## Salthorae (Oct 24, 2019)

Don't forget there's that wonky "Red-Eyed C3PO" in one of the trailers. It could be that this scene is right before his transition to evil 3PO for X reasons. 

Dunno. I'll see this, and I'm excited for it, but they could screw it up royally.


----------



## Nebulous (Oct 24, 2019)

After the enormously disappointing first two films I just can't care about this franchise until they hand it off to more competent film makers and do original storylines.   I'm sure parts of this will be good, and it's probably going to be the best of the new trilogy, but JJ has never delivered a movie I truly love and this won't be any different.

Sigh.  And Palpatine.  It's great hearing that evil chuckle actually, but I doubt this was ever the plan all along, to bring Palpatine back. This was a 3rd movie gamble to get fans in the seats and another grab at nostalgia, just like the first awful movie was.  I do wonder how they spin it though, the Emperor surviving RotJ and then hiding in secret 30 years until the plot needed him back.


----------



## Nebulous (Oct 24, 2019)

ccs said:


> Again, I know what you mean.  The potential of more SW adventures, whatever was/is in our imaginations, is sooo much better than pretty much anything we've actually seen post RotJ.




I truly believe it could be done with the right script (NOT from the Game of Thrones guys, but sheesh, that's who is doing the next trilogy) and the right director.   I still wonder what RotJ would have been like if Spielberg directed it as originally planned?   I still wish he would DO a Star Wars film but that's only going to happen in an alternate universe.


----------



## Nebulous (Oct 24, 2019)

Retreater said:


> Just another teaser trailer masquerading as a real preview. There's not enough here of plot or characters to get excited about, in my opinion. Kylo and Rey will fight … again. Poe and Finn will team up to shoot lasers from a vehicle while screaming "woo!" … again. Skimming vehicles like snowspeeders. Chewie in the Millennium Falcon. Sinister old man in a robe. It hits all the familiar beats but really gives me nothing to look forward to yet.
> What the heck is the plot? Drop something in there: "The First Order has found something in the Far Reaches, an old evil we thought had been destroyed...." There's absolutely nothing in this trailer but set pieces, which frankly leaves me concerned about the film.




I think you're right.  Aside from glorious sfx set pieces, the film will have no soul.  I honest to god could care less what happens to Rey and Poe and Finn.  I don't like their characters in the least.  I bet we will get a really cute new robot though. Disney is good at that.


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## trappedslider (Oct 24, 2019)

Salthorae said:


> I'll see this, and I'm excited for it, but they could screw it up royally.




based on comments in this thread and others,they already screwed it up by making it.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 24, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> based on comments in this thread and others,they already screwed it up by making it.




I think the main problem was they didn't have an overarching plot worked out.

JJ wrote one but got ignored apparently. Original plan was 3 directors.

And bringing the 3 OT stars would overshadow anyone new..


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## Nebulous (Oct 24, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> I think the main problem was they didn't have an overarching plot worked out.
> 
> JJ wrote one but got ignored apparently. Original plan was 3 directors.
> 
> And bringing the 3 OT stars would overshadow anyone new..




Not having a three part plot was a flaw.  Imagine if they had hinted at Palpatine in Part 1, or if Snoke was a clone of Palpatine or related somehow.  They could have gone many different directions if they'd been on board with a cohesive (logical) plot.  But i'm sorry, even the first movie making the Empire MORE powerful than it had been at the end of Jedi when the second Death Star and all their leaders were annihilated, with the Rebels in control of the galaxy and then not even a hint of how the baddies came back into power again??

Looks like the 3rd movie is rehashing that again with the biggest space battles seen yet in a SW film. Wasn't the Resistance at like a couple ships left at the end of Part 2?  The continuity is non existent. Even destroying Star Killer Base doesn't impact their resources at all.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 24, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It seems like plausible off-screen development if the the Resistance went from the people aboard the Millenium Falcon at the end of TLJ to the huge fleet in this trailer.
> 
> But it all feels very... disconnected. Of course, it's just a trailer so far, so who knows... I am skeptical, but it's bascially guaranteed I'll watch this movie, too. I need to know how the trilogy ends. Kinda like I needed to know how the New Jedi Order ended in the novel line. :/




Plausible but it's going to feel disjointed or rushed. 

There is a timejump but they only have one movie. Say if Akbar wasn't killed of screen and turned up with the remnants of the New Republic fleet. He could use the it's a trap line and ambush a star destroyer or something. 

 If they just conveniently hand them a fleet that looks bigger than the RotJ it's going to be a bit silly. Why bother wiping them out in the second movie (1st one maybe)

 See how they ramp up both sides in the OT. 

It will be like GoT where they have an epic battle almost wiped out next episode Dany has a big army again. 

 It was hinted there were others out their I suspect Lando might be used here. Execution will matter.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 24, 2019)

Nebulous said:


> Not having a three part plot was a flaw.  Imagine if they had hinted at Palpatine in Part 1, or if Snoke was a clone of Palpatine or related somehow.  They could have gone many different directions if they'd been on board with a cohesive (logical) plot.  But i'm sorry, even the first movie making the Empire MORE powerful than it had been at the end of Jedi when the second Death Star and all their leaders were annihilated, with the Rebels in control of the galaxy and then not even a hint of how the baddies came back into power again??
> 
> Looks like the 3rd movie is rehashing that again with the biggest space battles seen yet in a SW film. Wasn't the Resistance at like a couple ships left at the end of Part 2?  The continuity is non existent. Even destroying Star Killer Base doesn't impact their resources at all.




Yeah it's a bit silly and doesn't even make sense with their own canon outside the films.

 Those resurgence class Star Destroyers are supposed to be Uber powerful. The 1st Order is supposed to be space Sparta, small and deadly. 

 I think nuking the New Republic fleet with a handful of those new ships and a new model TIE (or even the TIE Defenders from Rebels) would have got that point across. Subvert expectations and have the TIEs rip apart X-Wings but Poe shoots them down because he's that damn good. 

 Have the capital fall to an assault from this smaller but better imperial space Sparta, the survivors flee leading into the space chase in TLJ. The ship designs would pay tribute to the OT like the PT did with their ship designs. 

 They're going with bigger and moar though which they did alot in the early 90s.


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## Nebulous (Oct 24, 2019)

Too little too late by now.  Disney wanted JJ to do a rehash nostalgia film and that's what he did. Rian screwed the pooch in Part 2 because these dudes couldn't even get on the same page plot wise, and then Disney reigns JJ in again to wrangle the mess Rian made and package it up to look as best they can and sell it to the masses. Which, I'm sure they'll do very well, but I'm not drinking the cool aid. They've disappointed me too much. 

One thing I do have to say, based on the trailer, The Mandalorian looks great. If it can actually live up to an original SW story remains to be seen.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 25, 2019)

Nebulous said:


> Too little too late by now.  Disney wanted JJ to do a rehash nostalgia film and that's what he did. Rian screwed the pooch in Part 2 because these dudes couldn't even get on the same page plot wise, and then Disney reigns JJ in again to wrangle the mess Rian made and package it up to look as best they can and sell it to the masses. Which, I'm sure they'll do very well, but I'm not drinking the cool aid. They've disappointed me too much.
> 
> One thing I do have to say, based on the trailer, The Mandalorian looks great. If it can actually live up to an original SW story remains to be seen.




Disney can make good Star Wars. Rewatched TFA recently and it doesn't hold up well on repeated viewings and the effort made there wasn't followed up on.

Rogue One still good IMHO.

You've got Mandalorian, Clone Wars Season VII, and Jedi Fallen Order all of which could be good. Resistance got canceled.

 They'll follow the money, seems obvious the fans aren't kids which Disney like marketing to.


----------



## Nebulous (Oct 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Disney can make good Star Wars. Rewatched TFA recently and it doesn't hold up well on repeated viewings and the effort made there wasn't followed up on.
> 
> Rogue One still good IMHO.
> 
> You've got Mandalorian, Clone Wars Season VII, and Jedi Fallen Order all of which could be good. Resistance got canceled.




I actually didn't hate Solo. I thought I would hate it. I didn't hate it, although it was a very unnecessary film whose budget would have been better spent on a new star wars film.

Rogue One IS good.  Not great, but good.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 25, 2019)

Nebulous said:


> I actually didn't hate Solo. I thought I would hate it. I didn't hate it, although it was a very unnecessary film whose budget would have been better spent on a new star wars film.
> 
> Rogue One IS good.  Not great, but good.




Yeah Solo wasn't to bad, would count that as the second best SW Disney movie.


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## Ovinomancer (Oct 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> You claimed such things don't exist in Star Wars when they do. I even provided a link.
> 
> You post came across as snarky, I assume you didn't know because you don't follow the old EU or the new one outside of the movies.
> 
> ...



No, they don't exist in Star Wars.  They may have existed, but they've been excised.  And, even when they existed, only a small subset of people knew about it.

It's like noting that once a genetic ancestor of humans had tails.  Then, in a discussion of humans, you list tails as an attribute to make an argument about the number of apoendages on humans.  People say humans don't have tails, but you say previous versions did, so humans /do/ have tails.  People exchange glances and note the exits and smile nervously.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 25, 2019)

Ovinomancer said:


> No, they don't exist in Star Wars.  They may have existed, but they've been excised.  And, even when they existed, only a small subset of people knew about it.
> 
> It's like noting that once a genetic ancestor of humans had tails.  Then, in a discussion of humans, you list tails as an attribute to make an argument about the number of apoendages on humans.  People say humans don't have tails, but you say previous versions did, so humans /do/ have tails.  People exchange glances and note the exits and smile nervously.




Hasn't been excised Disney still sells it under the legends label.

The games are still on sale as well

Doing pretty good for not existing.

Disney can do what they want. Personally haven't bought any toys, comics, books etc since they burned it down.

I heard they might be struggling to sell toys lol.

Since you're blatantly wrong do you want to humiliate yourself further?

There's some basic things they could have done better is the main point. It's understandable why they rehashed ABH with TFA, it's understandable why they didn't want to adapt the old EU (parts are a mess).


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## Umbran (Oct 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Hasn't been excised Disney still sells it under the legends label.




For fiction, the term "canon" means "that body of work that is accepted to exist".  By definition, if it isn't canon, it is not accepted to exist.  That which is not canon may still be interesting, and may still be sold, but that doesn't mean it can be used as a measure of what actually exists in the fictional universe.

So, the Rakata?  Not canon.  The Jed'ii?  Not canon.  The Star Forge?  Not canon.  These things, though written about, are not accepted to actually exist.  They are all.. speculative.

And, say, the Yuuzhan Vong? Totally not canon at this point.  They do not exist.  Jacen Solo?  Definitely does not exist.  Han and Leia had one kid in canon - Ben Solo.  Ben borrows heavily from Jacen, but they are not the same.

There is a whole lot of Star Wars stories that do not exist.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 25, 2019)

Nebulous said:


> Too little too late by now.  Disney wanted JJ to do a rehash nostalgia film and that's what he did.



I think nostalgia isn't all to it. Going back to the scenario from A New Hope in The Force Awakens makes sense for another season - the first Star Wars movie created the franchise. Without the appeal of its story, Star Wars wouldn't have become an international phenomena. 
It did a lot of things right, both in story and visuals. 
So if you want to capture a new, large, modern audience, it makes sense to go back to the original - everything that worked about it should still work today, and it might work even better, because Star Wars already is an established brand - this is the chance to capture a lot more people, and if the original "hero's journey" plot from Star Wars worked so well, it might lead to them wanting more.

I don't know how well it really worked out - well, obviously the box office numbers were great, the question is if the staying power they hoped for was there.
There is a lot more competition today, and obviously some fans were disappointed with the direction of the new movies (rehash, character assassinations, possible hooks from TFA ignored in TLJ and what-you-have). Some disgruntled fans prove nothing, however, because that always happens with sequels, prequels, continuations, reboots and what not, and online its difficult to get an actual measurement.
I suppose the apparent failure of the Solo movie is a more actual measurement, but its just a single movie, and the movie had problems even before he went to the cinemas. But obviously the brand Star Wars couldn't save it ,and that is probably something that would have surprised us 10+ years ago.

For me personally, the nostalgia aspects hurt more than they helped-  I wouldn't mind Luke, Han, Leia adventures continue, but they just possibly can't with the original actors, and especially not in a way that would feel satisfying. They were "supposed" to have a happy ending at the end of Return of the Jedi, not broken apart by family troubles and seeing their accomplishments turned to ashes. It would have been nicer if that happened a few years after their death... The idea of something like the Empire returning back and a new generation of plucky heroes rising up to the challenge would have been more appealing if it wasn't on the back of my "childhood heroes".


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## Nebulous (Oct 25, 2019)

1991







Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> For me personally, the nostalgia aspects hurt more than they helped-  I wouldn't mind Luke, Han, Leia adventures continue, but they just possibly can't with the original actors, and especially not in a way that would feel satisfying. They were "supposed" to have a happy ending at the end of Return of the Jedi, not broken apart by family troubles and seeing their accomplishments turned to ashes. It would have been nicer if that happened a few years after their death... The idea of something like the Empire returning back and a new generation of plucky heroes rising up to the challenge would have been more appealing if it wasn't on the back of my "childhood heroes".




I think it would have worked LONG ago when the Thrawn trilogy of books was released in 1991 or so.  If Ford, Fisher and Hamill could have been recruited and adapt that series into a film trilogy, I think it would have been brilliant, and it introduced a cloned Emperor as an integral part of the plot. And a superweapon that wasn't a Death Star (was it called the Sun Crusher?  I can't remember) and cloning facilities that keep pumping out soulless storm troopers.


----------



## Zardnaar (Oct 25, 2019)

Umbran said:


> For fiction, the term "canon" means "that body of work that is accepted to exist".  By definition, if it isn't canon, it is not accepted to exist.  That which is not canon may still be interesting, and may still be sold, but that doesn't mean it can be used as a measure of what actually exists in the fictional universe.
> 
> So, the Rakata?  Not canon.  The Jed'ii?  Not canon.  The Star Forge?  Not canon.  These things, though written about, are not accepted to actually exist.  They are all.. speculative.
> 
> ...




Just as will I said it was star Wars didn't claim it's canon. 

 It was used as an example of over the top stuff. It still got made, still exists, even has star Wars written on it.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 25, 2019)

Nebulous said:


> 1991
> 
> I think it would have worked LONG ago when the Thrawn trilogy of books was released in 1991 or so.  If Ford, Fisher and Hamill could have been recruited and adapt that series into a film trilogy, I think it would have been brilliant, and it introduced a cloned Emperor as an integral part of the plot. And a superweapon that wasn't a Death Star (was it called the Sun Crusher?  I can't remember) and cloning facilities that keep pumping out soulless storm troopers.




3 different stories there lol. 

 Sun crusher is another silly example of can you top this.i can blow up a planet, I can blow up 5, I can blow up a star.


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## Umbran (Oct 25, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Just as will I said it was star Wars didn't claim it's canon.




Yes, but are apparently still ignoring the point that it is valid to say that if it isn't canon, it isn't "in Star Wars".



> It was used as an example of over the top stuff. It still got made, still exists, even has star Wars written on it.




Yes, but if you have, say, a really ugly pair of burnt-umber bell-bottom pants that don't really fit any more, crammed in a bag intended to go to Goodwill in your closet, it is fair to say that pair of pants really isn't "in your wardrobe".  

The tropes of non-canon materials should not be claimed to be tropes of Star Wars, overall.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 25, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Yes, but are apparently still ignoring the point that it is valid to say that if it isn't canon, it isn't "in Star Wars".
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think part of the problem is they ignored or we're not aware of things done 25 years ago.

That stuff still exists, millions of people consumed it, people didn't get mind wiped and Star Wars made a lot of money on years with no movies via toys etc.

Ironically if I was grand high Poobah in charge of a new Star Wars trilogy I would have made a lot of the same decisions.

Disney is plugging a lot of elements of the old EU back into the new canon but I would have put some in TFA or Easter egged it.

Thrawns back for example.

Having three different directors not following the same script or storyboard is a big obvious derp. JJ wasn't the original plan for IX.


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## GreyLord (Oct 25, 2019)

Umbran said:


> For fiction, the term "canon" means "that body of work that is accepted to exist".  By definition, if it isn't canon, it is not accepted to exist.  That which is not canon may still be interesting, and may still be sold, but that doesn't mean it can be used as a measure of what actually exists in the fictional universe.
> 
> So, the Rakata?  Not canon.  The Jed'ii?  Not canon.  The Star Forge?  Not canon.  These things, though written about, are not accepted to actually exist.  They are all.. speculative.
> 
> ...




Canon is HIGHLY debatable. 

In many instances Canon relies upon the original creator's consent to actually be official.  In that light, the old EU is actually MORE Canon than the Disney stuff.  It's not that Lucas wrote it or even said it was his own story, but that he at least approved of it being written and at times actually input specific ideas and decisions he wanted done with the over all storyline of the EU. (for example, he specified that they could not kill Jacen which led to Annakin Solo's death early on, and I suspect the entire Jacen plot overall had some relation to Lucas's meddling/input to the EU later on, though it was very limited in his input).

With Disney, they tossed any ideas he had input with the EU with the exceptions of the things that he had wished to be put into the Clone Wars.  Disney really hasn't adhered to the "original creators" wishes and thus, in line with what is normally Original Canon, Disney really doesn't have it. 

Thus, in reality, Lucas has his specific Canon, much of which we never saw.  Then we have Canon of which he had a little input, but overall is NOT his, but he approves of it as an alternate universe or story to his.  It is thus still an original, but lesser type of Canon (something similar would be the stories of DS9's later seasons and Voyager for Star Trek in relation to Roddenberry).

What they have would be Disney Canon or their companies Canon.  This is not unusual and follows many properties.  We see it with Conan, we've seen it with the Terminator, we see it with the MCU and many other properties.  This type of Canon seems to change far more often depending on the whims of whomever owns the property at the time or is in control of the property.  Sometimes it lasts a long time, sometimes it just has a reboot.  The EU and Lucas's personal Canon are NOT part of Disney's canon.  What is Canon from Lucas seems to be the 6 movies and parts of the Clone Wars animated series.  I'm not sure if Lucas's Ewok movies are even Canon (I suspect they are not), or other small items Lucas has said over the years are also not Canon anymore, despite Lucas being the source of SW and those items.

So, just because it's not part of DISNEY Canon does not mean it is NOT Canon, it simply is not part of the Canon that Disney is endorsing currently (and that type of stuff changes on the fly, even in the short time Disney has owned SW, the Canon has changed a bit with some things being non-canon to suddenly being Canon and vice versa...it's shifting...much like a LOT of these market owned Canon things do).

Conan is a great parallel and example.  Conan has had different Movie Universes (at least two) that have different stories to them, comics, and other things which are Canon to the specific companies that make the different types.  These Canons have changed in various ways over the decades depending on who owns or is running the show.

On the otherhand, the actual stuff written by REH has basically stayed the same (probably because he is dead and is no longer writing any of it).  Even with some new additions (pertaining to discovered documents which he wrote) it has added on and stayed fairly consistent. 

With Conan you see several different types of Canon...however...ultimately it is up to the reader or one being entertained to determine which Canon they feel they wish to follow. 

Normally, all things being equal though, it is the ORIGINAL CREATOR's Canon that is the baseline, and his approved additional sources (such as what Lovecraft did) can sometimes be seen as a secondary base...with the additional Canon's being unofficial in the long run and only followed by those who wish to follow that specific Canon.


----------



## Morrus (Oct 25, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> Normally, all things being equal though, it is the ORIGINAL CREATOR's Canon that is the baseline, and his approved additional sources (such as what Lovecraft did) can sometimes be seen as a secondary base...with the additional Canon's being unofficial in the long run and only followed by those who wish to follow that specific Canon.



So is Keith Baker's eberron book on DMs Guild canon, or is the upcoming WotC hardcover?


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## Zardnaar (Oct 26, 2019)

Being a picky over what is canon doesn't really matter.


That's not canon either, doesn't change the fact it's had 18 million views.

Go to 2:27 and tell me that's not Star Wars lol. I don't even play this game.

Millions of people consumed that stuff for 23 years.

If Disney can't do better with billions of dollars it's going to get noticed.

No sequal trilogy of books in 91-93 no sequel. trilogy 2015-19. Star Wars was dead.

But yeah mid 90s would have been ideal time for sequels. Just based on the age of the actors if nothing else.

Alot of Disney decisions when viewed objectively make a lot of sense. Play it safe (after the prequels), female Jedi is new haven't seen that on the big screen, not adapting Heir to the Empire makes sense (actors are to old), new movie each year why not MCU does 2-3.

It's about what can look silly. It's hard to see the context for some if this as the Star destroyer may be coming out of ice but horsies in space dies look a bit silly IMHO even by Star Wars standard but it might be a cool scene in the movie. It's to early to judge one way or another.

Maybe they will make X,XI, XII one day. How do you top starkiller base? Lets blow up stars ZOMG.

The Mandalorian looks way more grounded and gritty and people seem to be going bonkers.


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## Morrus (Oct 26, 2019)

Every single Star Wars thread descends into an argument about canonicty of the EU with one specific person, over and I’ve again. It’s getting tiresome, boring, and disruptive. I’ve had to spin off entire threads to avoid a certain person more than once before. We clearly need a more permanent solution just so this community can simply be allowed be allowed to talk about current Star Wars.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 26, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Every single Star Wars thread descends into an argument about canonicty of the EU with one specific person. It’s getting tiresome and disruptive. I’ve had to spin off entire threads to avoid a certain person more than once before. We clearly need a more permanent solution just so this community can simply be allowed be allowed to talk about current Star Wars.




 We are talking about Star Wars. I'll tone it down I'm well aware of what's canon or not. Doesn't bother me I wouldn't have used the old EU either for new movies and I'll leave it at that.


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## Morrus (Oct 26, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> We are talking about Star Wars. I'll tone it down I'm well aware of what's canon or not. Doesn't bother me I wouldn't have used the old EU either for new movies and I'll leave it at that.



It’s every single thread, dude. Over and over again. It’s just ... boring.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 26, 2019)

Morrus said:


> It’s every single thread, dude. Over and over again. It’s just ... boring.




Yeah D&D and Star Wars are my things I care the most about.

I like other franchises to some extent but those are the big ones.

I try not to make it personal but I have other flaws I'll own that.


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## GreyLord (Oct 27, 2019)

Morrus said:


> So is Keith Baker's eberron book on DMs Guild canon, or is the upcoming WotC hardcover?




I'm not familiar enough with Eberron to say.  Do Keith Baker and WotC disagree on what the story of Eberron should or would have been?

I do know if it came down to a call between Ed Greenwood contesting what was considered canon and WotC, you'd probably have a great majority side with Greenwood.  Normally Greenwood is more relaxed and has just about anything as Canon though, as I think he considers additions by others essential in creating a joint existence for a game world.

For literary and other purposes...it normally defaults to the original creator as the baseline canon, even when others create more extensive universes and such.  Those other creators can have their own canon, but it's not the baseline for everything else to build off of.

For example, Tolkien and CS Lewis have both had other companies create multiple canons specific to those companies.  Since it's an RPG board, Middle Earth has had MERPS which had it's own Canon.  However, it is Tolkien's original words and writing which take precedence.

Much of this is because a license can switch companies, owners, writers, and many other things.  When this happens it is not uncommon for that Company's Canon to change.  Thus, in the example of MERPS, the current owners of the Middle Earth and LotR RPG rights do not have to adhere to the MERPS Canon.  They are expected typically to hold to the original canon from the Books of LotR, the Hobbit, and to a lesser degree the other works that came later attributed to Tolkien himself, even though those works were not especially endorsed by Tolkien, they were supposedly written or at least approved by him even if not adopted wholescale.  Thus, you can see Canon from one license tossed wholesale in favor of a new canon and things change from one person running the show to the next.

However, it is RARE for the original creator's canon to change (more especially after they are dead...but it normally does not have that many changes even while they are living though they may add quite a bit to it...Lucas has twerked the canon for his own SW canon himself, but it's core has essentially remained the same).

Thus, if looking at media works, it's normally the creator's canon which is considered official, with various unofficial canon's by the various license holders (if the work is popular enough to reach that point and is licensed out) as that specific owner's canon, but not the official canon that would be utilized by others if they ever came to own or control the license.  Basically the Creator's canon is that which is seen to be the base upon which all other canon's are built off of.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 28, 2019)

This is quite funny IMHO.

Deepfake Lucas reacts satire.


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## Mercurius (Oct 28, 2019)

The issue of canon is an interesting question because there are so many fictional properties that have essentially become shared universes. And of course once you have an RPG involved, you have as many "alternate universes" as there are campaigns. Ed Greenwood, in his magnanimity, has been very clear about this: the "true" Forgotten Realms is _your _Forgotten Realms.

Each property is unique in terms of how canon is involved. Middle-earth is relatively clear: only the works written by Tolkien are truly canonical. The films are essentially homages to Tolkien; the RPGs are just that: games, with elements of fan-fiction.

The Forgotten Realms is more loose: it is truly a shared universe that has been developed and expanded by dozens, even hundreds, of authors and artists. Yet the "original Realms" still exists as Ed Greenwood's home campaign (I still hope someday to see an "Ed Greenwood's Realms" box set or book), but the "true" Realms--as I said above--is your Realms.

Star Wars is a bit trickier, because there are more layers, some of which conflict, and I think it is clear to say, more debate. While there's an official canon, it does include films beyond the original creator's vision, and while I know it is "official," it is a bit jarring when we get the sense that it isn't really canonical to the guy who created it all. And unlike Tolkien, Lucas is still alive, which adds another complexity. 

So it is far more messy: there is a wide range of fan views on what is and is not "true" Star Wars, and in a way everyone is entitled to assemble their own Star Wars universe. Some fan purists might consider the original trilogy to be the one and true Star Wars film, while others might broaden it to include the prequels because they are still Lucas. While the extended universe has been relegated to fanfic, I think it is perfectly fine if someone wants to include it as part of _their _Star Wars universe, whether or not it is officially canon. But that hypothetical person (ahem) should be clear that for most it is fanfic.

Ultimately I don't think it really matters what is canon and what isn't, as it is all fiction. I personally see it as existing in layers: the one true Star Wars story is the original trilogy; everything else is a pale shadow, in my opinion. The prequel films were visually beautifully and felt like Lucas films, if latter-day "obsessed-with-sfx-Lucas." They are a bit jarring in how they lacked the soul of the original trilogy, but they still feel enough like Star Wars.

The Disney films are tricky. On one hand, they are canon and they share some of the classic characters. On the other, to me they feel like fanfic. They don't feel like canon, like the true Star Wars story -- in a similar way that the recent Star Trek movies felt somehow removed from the "true" Star Wars chronology (and actually were, as far as timelines go - so it still kind of worked).

I never read any of the books, video games, or even RPGs, so that really is no more or less than fanfic to me.

I find the Disney Star Wars films to be entertaining scifi extravaganzas, but rather underwhelming in terms of story-telling and characterization. But I'm still excited to see Skywalker, even if I feel that the overall effect of every film post-ROTJ has been to diminish the original potency of Star Wars. I mean, even if we don't love what Disney has done, we still get to see people run around with lightsabers and fly spaceships (but for the life of me, why is Rey running with her lightsaber activated?).

In summary, I would suggest that we look at the question of Star Wars canon in a slightly different way: That what canon means (in Star Wars) is not as much what is "official" or "true," as what constitutes a coherent story world. It doesn't make anything that exists outside of that story world to be "false," just more akin to alternate takes - not unlike the alternate endings you see for some movies.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 28, 2019)

God I hate cannon discussions so much.


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## Mercurius (Oct 28, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> God I hate cannon discussions so much.




Two good things for you:

1. We're talking about canon, not cannon.
2. You're free not to participate.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 28, 2019)

Except it is in a thread I'm generally interested in......you know, talking about the upcoming movie...


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## Mercurius (Oct 28, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> Except it is in a thread I'm generally interested in......you know, talking about the upcoming movie...




Fair enough. Ignore the canon stuff, then. Every thread goes in different directions. If you want to re-focus it on what you're interested, do so.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 28, 2019)

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## trappedslider (Oct 28, 2019)

Zaukrie said:


> God I hate cannon discussions so much.



Well,I like a good old smooth bore.....


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## GreyLord (Oct 28, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> 1. I am excited for the upcoming movie!
> 
> 2. More than me, the teens that I know are VERY EXCITED for the upcoming movie.
> 
> ...




Ironically, for my area it's the exact opposite.  The some of the older hardcore Fans who didn't like (Return of the Jedi - clarification, not all of them seem to have disliked RotJ...though they almost all universally hated the prequels...) OR the Prequels seem to be more excited and the kids seem to be completely uninterested.

On the other hand, the older fans that seemed to like the Prequels are the ones that are the ones that dislike the Sequels the most.

The kids though, those under the age of 20, seem to think the SW films have flown the coop when I talk to them.  They don't feel it is like the SW that they know and instead seem to ask me if I know when the next Marvel trailer or Avengers trailer will come out (like I would know).  The best attitude I could give them would be more...simply not interested in SW this generation.  They do seem to follow the DC TV shows though.  If they are any indication I'd DC TV shows are doing pretty well with that audience currently.

It is possible that the kids that I know are being influenced heavily by their parents (the prequel lovers, or that generation which grew up on the prequels who apparently are many who have the kids and teens now).


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## Zardnaar (Oct 28, 2019)

Canon doesn't matter to much as I break out the RPG.

It might if I ask the players if they want to play canon, legends, or infinities.

Infinities is completely non canon you can be the one to blow up the death star instead of Luke.

Apparently the Lost Stars series is good in the new canon so I'll check it out eventually.

RPG wise all the material I have is old so I use that.


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## Umbran (Oct 29, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> 1. I am excited for the upcoming movie!
> 
> 2. More than me, the teens that I know are VERY EXCITED for the upcoming movie.




Same here.  But... make that teens and kids.  Every little girl of my acquaintance seems to _love_ Rey, with a passion normally only seen in those who would argue that Han Solo piloting the Millennium Falcon could beat a Borg Cube.  I am happy for them... and sad that in retrospect, Luke is such a whiner.  



> 5. I'm not going opening night (already sold out).




I almost never go to a blockbuster movie on opening night, and only occasionally go on the opening weekend.  The audience is usually so darned rowdy, they get in the way of watching the movie.


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## Celebrim (Oct 29, 2019)

Cringiest trailer for a major movie I've ever seen.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 29, 2019)

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## Umbran (Oct 29, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Unfortunately, as my own progeny has aged, I have lost touch with the younglings, so I can only speak of the surly teen market.




I have little kids on my block, coworkers with younger kids, and there was early trick-or-treating in the local business areas this past weekend.

Are there non-surly teens?



> Me too. Except John Wick movies. Then I go opening night, and every other night until it leaves the theater. It's like a fine wine that starts at great, and gets even better with age.




Has it occurred to you that the analogy goes further - that after the first couple of glasses of wine, you are fairly tipsy and no longer really able to discern the finer points about what you're taking in?


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## lowkey13 (Oct 29, 2019)

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## GreyLord (Oct 30, 2019)

My contacts are through grandkids, kids that come to game groups I run and kids that are part of the sports organizations I volunteer running these days.  

It's funny the differences we see.  As I said, the ones I know seem to be non-interested in Star Wars for the mosts part, though they are VERY much into the Super Hero scene...boys and girls at this point.


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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> 1. I am excited for the upcoming movie!
> 
> 2. More than me, the teens that I know are VERY EXCITED for the upcoming movie.
> 
> ...




Return of The Jedi is the best Star Wars movie.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Return of The Jedi is the best Star Wars movie.




Has one of the best space battles ever and one of the greatest lightsaber duels.


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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 30, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Has one of the best space battles ever and one of the greatest lightsaber duels.



And the central moment of the entire franchise.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> And the central moment of the entire franchise.




Yep loved those ewoks.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## Sepulchrave II (Oct 30, 2019)

I'm not 10 anymore, and there has been a huge cultural shift in the last forty years, so it's hard for me to get excited.

But I fully endorse other people's excitement, and encourage them to chase each other with toy lightsabers.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## Sepulchrave II (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> There's a pill for that, now. Consult your physician.
> 
> 
> 
> /ducks




If they had blue pills for franchise fatigue, I'd eat the _Alien_ one first.


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## dragoner (Oct 30, 2019)

Ranking - 1. ESB, 2. R1, 3. ANH; of course these are the best written, I will or will not see any new ST movies at the theater based on the whim of the moment. I couldn't imagine being a 50+ year old man and cringing at any of them, truthfully I have found the newer ones to be fine. Like much of Hollywood, technically good, with mediocre writing; so it isn't surprising.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## Umbran (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> B. Boba Fett. Take an iconic character and kill him off stupidly.




Here, I shall start a minor battle:  Boba Fett was not iconic.  He was _A CHUMP_!  He doesn't _DO_ anything!

Boba Fett gets told to not disintegrate anyone.  He then follows the Millennium Falcon, calls Vader when his target stops for a minute, and then picks up the carbonite Han-cicle and gets paid by Jabba the Hutt.  He then is a hanger-on wannabe in a Hutt palace - which pretty much qualifies him as Sarlacc chow.

If he'd personally fought Han to a standstill, or otherwise actually acted to capture his targets, maybe.  But his role could have been played by a bloody tracking beacon on the Falcon, but for the fact that Vader's people couldn't find their Sith with both hands.  That's not iconic.



> C. Failure of imagination. Something that would continue to bedevil Lucas, but ... "Hey, what should make the McGuffin in this film? How about the Death Star, again?" When people attack The Force Awakens for recycling, they really need to look at the worst, and first, example.




Um... perhaps you missed the theme that evil isn't terribly imaginative, and needs to compensate for something.



> E. Plot was confusing and, frankly, stupid.




Space Opera is not known for coherence.  It is known for melodrama.



> F. Special effects over plot. Why is there lightning in the sword fight? Because lightning looks cool. And because Lucas could now do (somewhat) realistic lightning.




The real reason for lightning:

"Just like a Jedi to bring a laser-sword to a lightning fight.  Oh, wait, that's right - you're a goody-two-shoes Jedi, and don't get to throw lightning!  ZAPzapzap!"



> G. EVEN THE MUSIC IS TERRIBLE!




Your suggestion, sir, that John Williams could and would have allowed anything other than excellent work to be placed on film would normally be grounds for a gauntlet slapped across your face, and a challenge of a saber duel at dawn.  However, we will allow that your grief over the death of your Beloved Boba has clouded your judgement, and let it slide.  For now....


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## GreyLord (Oct 30, 2019)

Sepulchrave II said:


> I'm not 10 anymore, and there has been a huge cultural shift in the last forty years, so it's hard for me to get excited.
> 
> But I fully endorse other people's excitement, and encourage them to chase each other with toy lightsabers.




I actually like that opinion expressed there.  That's probably a good attitude for many things I enjoyed when I was younger but do not anymore.

I cannot express just how much I like that opinion you stated.  I think it could apply to many of the things seen to day.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> See, this is IMO the hottest take of all! Allow me to explain.
> 
> Anyone who claims that one of the movies in the prequel is the best Star Wars movie is obviously trolling. They are just trying to get a rise out of you, or start a conversation. Sure, maybe they might stan for Revenge of of the Sith, but no one seriously would claim it is the BEST Star Wars movie. And if they are talking about Attack of the Clone, you know they are straight-up trolling.
> 
> ...



The Ewoks were good. 

Boba was never iconic and is still completely overrated even in the context of the expanded universe material where he actual does stuff. 

The movie makes sense, and is just as easy to follow as the others. 

Literally the pivotal moment in Star Wars is Luke’s rejection of the Dark Side and refusal to kill Vader, thus winning by having faith in another person. It is the point of the entire franchise. Without it, Star Wars is merely a fun romp through space. Cool, but hardly important. 

The climax is great. 

It’s the best Star Wars movie.


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## dragoner (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Well, I actually kinda sorta like the _Alien _franchise.
> 
> The first three were all excellent in their own ways. And while I'm probably on the shortlist, I enjoyed both Prometheus and Covenant.
> 
> ...




I watched the 1st three on the beeb last night, I think Resurrection can really stand up as a RPG adventure, plus it has Ron Pearlman. The last couple were ok, but without a strong lead like Sigourney Weaver, they were lost, if they had been able to get Noomi Rapace back for Covenant, it would have been 100% better.


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## dragoner (Oct 30, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> The Ewoks were good.




I'm not buying this statement's honesty at all.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 30, 2019)

dragoner said:


> I'm not buying this statement's honesty at all.



I don’t lie to make Internet forum posts, bud. Suggesting I do is pretty naughty word.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## dragoner (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> So, I continue to refuse to believe there was a fourth movie. I have this vague recollection of going to see some "Resurrection" movie at the theater when it came out, one that claimed to be part of the Alien franchise, and having such a visceral and intense dislike of it that I have excised that memory from my brain.
> 
> I think that the reason a lot of people were lukewarm to the last two is that they are, well, different than the earlier ones (esp. Prometheus). Personally, I consider that a strength. Not as good, but enjoyable.
> 
> And certainly much better than the constant reboots of Terminator!




The cast of Resurrection was great, plus it's a Joss Whedon interpretation of the franchise, which is lighter in feeling than the others. Prometheus I like more than Covenant, though I like them both, I sort of don't care for the "Aliens are Everywhere" disease mode.

I liked the last couple of Terminator movies, though nothing can match the cheesy goodness of the 1st one ...


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## dragoner (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Cheesy goodness? Everything about the first one is amazing. That's just a stripped-down, amazing movie, from beginning to end. And one of the few movies of its time that still holds up (IMO).
> 
> Man, the early 80s were a rough time for cinema.



Rough? You mean like with ESB, T1, Aliens, Conan, The Thing, and The Road Warrior? To me it looks pretty awesome. All of those still hold up too; then again there are fine cheeses vs the more run of the mill horror, sci-fi, post-apocalypse varieties that could be super cheesy. Circling back on to the whole Star Wars, etc. franchises; they are technically great in production value, except the writing is meh. Watching Aliens last night, I loved how the music signaled the end of the movie before the last fight scene in the Sulaco's cargo bay, and then they spring it on you. It totally worked, even though I knew it was coming, and Sigourney Weaver's "Get away from her you bitch!" line is full of feeling; fine cheese indeed.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## GreyLord (Oct 30, 2019)

I actually like Alien Resurrection FAR more than alien 3.  Alien 3 is the one that should NOT exist.  

I'd have preferred if they had gotten that reboot they wanted to do a few years ago where 3 and Ressurection never happened and it was a sequel to 2.

But HATED Alien 3.  Dislike it to this day.  Resurrection may not be a favorite, but at least it is watchable for me.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## GreyLord (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I couldn't disagree more.
> 
> Would it have been good if Fincher had a little more time, and a little less studio mismanagement? Sure.
> 
> ...




James Cameron's opinion of Alien 3


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## dragoner (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Yes, there are some truly great movies as you transition from the 70s to the 80s. But, again, the overall 80s (especially the mid 80s) tends to be a cinema wasteland. There are many more great movies in the 70s, for example. The main issue is that the movies tend to be very specifically dated, so that unless you have a nostalgia factor for it (grew up watching it) they aren't very good.
> 
> I'd also throw in, for example, Predator, Gremlins (the first two), GB (first one), Raiders, Blade Runner and Evil Dead.




If I ever forget thee oh Blade Runner ... That period was so brilliant, we're still in the afterglow, the whole thread is talking about Star Wars. It's faint praise that any movie could even be compared to some of those. I mean, Luv really is the best one, and that was the problem with BR 2049, it should have had more of her, and less of everything else (dream mashup: Luv3 is sent to the Covenant colony planet to collect the David/Walter synth); which is also sort of my critique of TLJ, where it seemed to lose focus, they are trying to hard to put too much into the time of the film.


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## dragoner (Oct 30, 2019)

GreyLord said:


> I actually like Alien Resurrection FAR more than alien 3.  Alien 3 is the one that should NOT exist.
> 
> I'd have preferred if they had gotten that reboot they wanted to do a few years ago where 3 and Ressurection never happened and it was a sequel to 2.
> 
> But HATED Alien 3.  Dislike it to this day.  Resurrection may not be a favorite, but at least it is watchable for me.




I like 3 & 4 both, except they both have one huge problem, how to live up to Alien & Aliens? It's impossible, those movies simply set the bar too high, I mean both are exceptional.


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## Umbran (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> But hey, if you want to farm out your own critical faculties to someone else, I can't stop you.




How about we not accuse folks of intellectual laziness for having found someone who says what they may think better than they'd have put it themselves, hm?


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## lowkey13 (Oct 30, 2019)

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## Umbran (Oct 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Better?




Not perfect, but significant improvement.  Thank you.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

Sepulchrave II said:


> If they had blue pills for franchise fatigue, I'd eat the _Alien_ one first.




Predator and Terminator as well.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 30, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> The Ewoks were good.
> 
> Boba was never iconic and is still completely overrated even in the context of the expanded universe material where he actual does stuff.
> 
> ...




Fett's iconic he's also in the cartoons and his action figure has been the most expensive collectible figure ever.

He also places highly in most popular SW character polls.

If you don't like him that's fine but arguing he's not iconic is silly IMHO.

He was also a big deal in comics, games etc. I had a Fett poster, he was on t-shirts as well.

 It's the armor, I suspect he is a paladin though.


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## trappedslider (Oct 31, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> See, this is IMO the hottest take of all! Allow me to explain.
> 
> Anyone who claims that one of the movies in the prequel is the best Star Wars movie is obviously trolling. They are just trying to get a rise out of you, or start a conversation. Sure, maybe they might stan for Revenge of of the Sith, but no one seriously would claim it is the BEST Star Wars movie. And if they are talking about Attack of the Clone, you know they are straight-up trolling.




Actually, I'm not trolling but you believe what you want to believe because beauty is in the eye of the behold eh.

The dialogue between Anakin and Padem is cheesy,but that's what happens when you're flirting or even just talking to the girl you've crushing on for forever*. Oh,you thought the clone wars was about a war against evil clones or something expected like that? Nope, it's a war WITH clones. And we finally got to see what Yoda can do with a light saber in his prime.  Now does this make it the best,well no, but it makes it my favorite.

* As a writer and someone who remembers that age it is cheesy when you're awkward around your crush and it's hard to make it NOT cheesy and not end up with don juan or Rico Suave.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 31, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Actually, I'm not trolling but you believe what you want to believe because beauty is in the eye of the behold eh.
> 
> The dialogue between Anakin and Padem is cheesy,but that's what happens when you're flirting or even just talking to the girl you've crushing on for forever*. Oh,you thought the clone wars was about a war against evil clones or something expected like that? Nope, it's a war WITH clones. And we finally got to see what Yoda can do with a light saber in his prime.  Now does this make it the best,well no, but it makes it my favorite.
> 
> * As a writer and someone who remembers that age it is cheesy when you're awkward around your crush and it's hard to make it NOT cheesy and not end up with don juan or Rico Suave.




 AotC does have its fans and that's perfectly fine. 

 The prequels were my first Star Wars for kids as well and they are mid 20s to 30 now. 

 Not sure if Lowkey is joking but his post was a bit much.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 31, 2019)

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## Umbran (Oct 31, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Which brings us up to the counterargument (I call this the "Umbran Maneuver" ...heh) - what if it's all planned? What if the Second Death Star is just what evil people do? What if Lucas wrote it just like this because he got in touch with his awkward, hormonal, youngling roots?




Let us be abundantly clear:  Repeating Death Stars can be seen as thematic.  The "romance" between Padme and Anakin is trash, both in its writing and in the acting by Hayden Christiansen.  Natalie Portman tries, she really does, but they give her garbage to work with.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 31, 2019)

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## Umbran (Oct 31, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> ...but re-using the Death Star in Return is .... a poor choice. If for no other reason than I once had a friend who had the interesting belief that the Return Death Star was actually the rebuilt ANH Death Star, a belief that he would expound upon loudly and vociferously in direct proportion to the amount he drank.




Hm.  Interesting interpretation.  I mean, it is a completely irrelevant interpretation - where they get the parts and materials really doesn't matter as far as the plot is concerned.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 31, 2019)

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## Umbran (Oct 31, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Hmmm... hard pressed to find the parts.




Remember the resolution.  The original Death Star is supposed to be, what, 100 km in diameter?  That means each bright dot there is at least several meters across - and that's just the stuff glowing bright enough to see from hundreds to thousands or more kilometers away.  Most of the mass of the thing can be in rather larger dark chunks, tens to hundreds of meters across.

Plus, just having the raw material floating around in space gives you a leg up over going down into a gravity well to get it.  Basically, in blowing up, the original Death Star becomes its own little asteroid mining field.

Go in there with a couple (admittedly non-canon) Interdictor-class Star Destroyers, use their gravity generators to just scoop up the detritus, and you have yourself some high-grade recyclables.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 31, 2019)

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## Umbran (Oct 31, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> "Little does Luke know that the GALACTIC EMPIRE *had secretly begun construction on a new armored space station* even more powerful than the first dreaded Death Star."
> 
> From the opening of Return.
> 
> We also know that is was larger and more powerful than Death Star Mk. I.




Yeah, that's all fine.  I'm... not sure what the problem is.  You said that using the death star twice was a bad choice, holding up your friend's misapprehension as support.  You then also seem to point out exactly where the film makesr say that isn't the case.  Which kind of means you seem to have dispelled your own point, from where I sit.  

Your friend wasn't very attentive, and when drunk his logic gets weak.  How, exactly, is this a major fault in the movie, and not in your friend's braincase and alcohol habits?


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## lowkey13 (Oct 31, 2019)

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## Zardnaar (Oct 31, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Remember the resolution.  The original Death Star is supposed to be, what, 100 km in diameter?  That means each bright dot there is at least several meters across - and that's just the stuff glowing bright enough to see from hundreds to thousands or more kilometers away.  Most of the mass of the thing can be in rather larger dark chunks, tens to hundreds of meters across.
> 
> Plus, just having the raw material floating around in space gives you a leg up over going down into a gravity well to get it.  Basically, in blowing up, the original Death Star becomes its own little asteroid mining field.
> 
> Go in there with a couple (admittedly non-canon) Interdictor-class Star Destroyers, use their gravity generators to just scoop up the detritus, and you have yourself some high-grade recyclables.




Interdictors are canon they were in Rebels. Along with Thrawn and TIE Defenders.

 Still think the should have used the defenders in a movie maybe flanking Kylos TIE Silencer. 

  For whatever reason some people do have AotC as their favorite SW movie. Movies are just so subjective though.  Some people just might not like the OT much just because if the hair cuts. 

 They're charming for us but if you're used to cgi old practical effects might look terrible idk. 

 I'm sure Ishtar has its fans somewhere.


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## lowkey13 (Oct 31, 2019)

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## Doug McCrae (Oct 31, 2019)

That looks really cool.


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## Sepulchrave II (Oct 31, 2019)

lowkey13 said:
			
		

> The reason I think rebuilding the Death Star and using it again for the RoTJ was a very lazy story-telling choice is that it is, in fact, just that. It's like when Marvel uses a GIANT SKY BEAM! It's lazy.




At this point, the idea of a tyrannical Sith Lord creating a giant weapon which blows up planets/stars/the universe has been recycled so many times in Star Wars movies, books, comics and video games that it's become rather an expectation. I'm not sure that its particular shape or configuration matters too much.

More than sixty Star Wars superweapons


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## Zardnaar (Oct 31, 2019)

I would probably move away from superweapons at least short term.


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## Gradine (Oct 31, 2019)

Yeah, the glut of superweapons is probably one of the most commonly thought of tropes associated with the old Star Wars "Legends"; one would think a move away from those would help set the new canon apart.

Also sad to say that AotC is objectively the worst Star Wars movie, sorry I don't make the rules that's just science


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## Zardnaar (Oct 31, 2019)

Personally moving away from superweapons, Skywalker's and the force is probably a good idea. 

 The Mandalorian should minimize any of that.


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## GreyLord (Nov 1, 2019)

If talking about the worst Star Wars Movie, to me it is The Last Jedi.

If talking about the worst MOVIE of all the Star Wars series (a movie may be great, but be a bad Star Wars Movie.  For example, the Last Jedi in my opinion is actually a MUCH BETTER MOVIE than the Force Awakens, but as a 'Star Wars' movie it didn't fill many fan expectations...thus why I feel there is such controversy about it among some groups)....

For me, it's the Phantom Menace.  That movie has so many bad movie things about it (from the script to the choice of some of the actors to the stereotyping) that I'd actually put AotC above it any day of the week.

We all have different personal opinions on which movies are good or bad.  I have no problem with someone saying AotC is their favorite anymore than if someone said TLJ or even one of the Ewok movies is their favorite.  We all have different things that make us tick and our differences is one of the things that make the world interesting.


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## lowkey13 (Nov 1, 2019)

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## Hussar (Nov 2, 2019)

See, the funny thing about things like "Thrawn" or "Tie Defenders" being canon, is that they AREN'T the same Thrawn or Tie Defenders that we knew before.  The Thrawn of Rebels isn't the Thrawn of the 90's novels.  How do I know that?  Because the 90's novels didn'T happen.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 2, 2019)

Hussar said:


> See, the funny thing about things like "Thrawn" or "Tie Defenders" being canon, is that they AREN'T the same Thrawn or Tie Defenders that we knew before.  The Thrawn of Rebels isn't the Thrawn of the 90's novels.  How do I know that?  Because the 90's novels didn'T happen.




He's quite close, the TIE Defender just had it's backstory changed.

Thrawn had essentially the same personality and carried his art thing across as well.

 The new fluff doesn't really match what you're seeing onscreen and a TIE Defender would.


----------



## Hussar (Nov 2, 2019)

Oh, without a doubt there's the obvious "based on" quality.  Of course.  But, they are not the same character.  And, you can't really point to something like "Thrawn" as evidence of canon stuff being brought into the series.  The Thrawn of Rebels isn't the same character.  Any more than the Boba Fett of the books and whatnot is the same character that dies so ignominiously in RotJ.  In canon, Boba Fett is a pointless character that does pretty much nothing.  All the romance around him is later stuff that people have added in.


----------



## dragoner (Nov 2, 2019)

The problem with arguing about Star Wars movies, online; is that in the end, you are arguing about Star Wars movies, online.


----------



## Salthorae (Nov 2, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It's the armor, I suspect he is a paladin though.




He’s clearly a Gunslinger fighter with the Urban Bounty Hunter Background.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 8, 2019)

Disney is done with Star Wars, at least for awhile, after Rise of Skywalker.

Disney CEO Bob Iger says, "Star Wars 9, which comes out this December will be the last of the Skywalker Saga and we’ll go into a hiatus for a few years before the next Star Wars feature."


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 8, 2019)

Apparently he lost it at a test screening which is where the Reddit stuff is coming from.

 Next trilogy was supposed to be 2022, if that's changed that's 5 movies they've pulled the plug on. 

 They've also fired more directors etc than movies they've produced.


----------



## Gradine (Nov 8, 2019)

It's more that Disney is moving Star Wars from the big screen to the small screen for a bit while they sort out what actually works or not.

That said, I think given past track records we're significantly better off living in a world without a Josh Trank or Benioff/Weiss Star Wars film or three.


----------



## Legatus Legionis (Nov 9, 2019)

.


----------



## Gradine (Nov 9, 2019)

Yeah... that really doesn't seem like a very credible source at all


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 9, 2019)

He's not. 

 I use John Campea a lot. Not perfect and he is happy happy happy but generally knows what he's talking about.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 9, 2019)

Gradine said:


> Yeah... that really doesn't seem like a very credible source at all



Sounds like the Star Wars equivalent of that Midnight's Edge fellow. The story sounds implausible - they had 3 different versions of the same movie, including one version with "input" by George Lucas?


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 9, 2019)

I think the hiatus should last till my kid's kids are dead and should include TV and books and games.


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## Morrus (Nov 9, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> I think the hiatus should last till my kid's kids are dead and should include TV and books and games.



Couldn’t you just not watch it, rather than keeping it from me too?


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 9, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Couldn’t you just not watch it, rather than keeping it from me too?



I should have left my reasoning in the post, that way it would be 100% new and they wouldn't have to deal with a fan base that grew up with it.

I've got no problems with the movies or the direction they are heading,just some of the fans and waiting for the fans and the fans kids kids to die seems like the best way to get around that lol


----------



## Morrus (Nov 9, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> I should have left my reasoning in the post, that way it would be 100% new and they wouldn't have to deal with a fan base that grew up with it.
> 
> I've got no problems with the movies or the direction they are heading,just some of the fans and waiting for the fans and the fans kids kids to die seems like the best way to get around that lol



So I am not allowed new Star Wars for the rest of my life so that hypothetical people who have not yet been born get to experience it new? 

Yeah, no thanks!


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 9, 2019)

Morrus said:


> So I am not allowed new Star Wars for the rest of my life so that hypothetical people who have not yet been born get to experience it new?
> 
> Yeah, no thanks!



fine but can we ban Zardnaar from seeing it at least?


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 9, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> I should have left my reasoning in the post, that way it would be 100% new and they wouldn't have to deal with a fan base that grew up with it.
> 
> I've got no problems with the movies or the direction they are heading,just some of the fans and waiting for the fans and the fans kids kids to die seems like the best way to get around that lol




 Disney likes aiming stuff at kids. The average Star Wars fan is a 46 year old male. 

  That's a marketing problem though.  Hence resistance got cancelled and they're making a new season of clone wars. 

 Kids these days the MCU probably interests them more. 

 You've got or had a built in market of people who now have their own kids, who will line up for midnight screenings, and spend hundreds of millions of dollars in tie in products in years with no movies. They'll also go see you movies 4,5,6 times or more (17 times is best I know if).

 They're trying to market to that group, if they weren't they would be busting out Palpatine or the OT stars in the lead up to TFA.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 9, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> fine but can we ban Zardnaar from seeing it at least?




 Depending on how RoS goes I'll ban myself. 

  If some reports from more reputable sources are true there's been a lot of reshoots, that's expensive and if the test screening reports are accurate (not the crap video listed above) it could be interesting putting it mildly. 

 80-90% of what's out there is BS, test screening leaks went out about 2-3 months ago before the last two trailers went out so those ones are a bit more reliable than the 75% of the movie has been reshoot +which is BS).

  I'm sure the Lucas thing in the earlier video is also BS.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 9, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Disney likes aiming stuff at kids. The average Star Wars fan is a 46 year old male.
> 
> That's a marketing problem though.  Hence resistance got cancelled and they're making a new season of clone wars.
> 
> ...



if you wait till that 46 male and his kids and grand kids are dead, and then BAM! Star wars is brand new for the great great grand kids who have lived in a world without star wars. It also means they won't have to put with the fans like you and me


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## Zardnaar (Nov 9, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> if you wait till that 46 male and his kids and grand kids are dead, and then BAM! Star wars is brand new for the great great grand kids who have lived in a world without star wars. It also means they won't have to put with the fans like you and me




 Heh. I may fit into the hardcore group except I don't buy toys.














 I think Iger is figuring it out and Disney will follow the money.


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## Legatus Legionis (Nov 10, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Considering how this was to be the grand final film of the *TRILOGY*, of the Skywalker Saga, and how the big plans of KK has blown up into her face. So many cancelled films (Kenobi, Boba Fett, Ruin.Johnson's trilogy, etc.)
> 
> The once proud franchise is long gone.
> 
> ...




Depends if the next trilogy is on hiatus. They might give it to Rian but they've cancelled at least 5 movies, if Iger was talking about the next trilogy being delayed/canceled that makes 8.

 Rotten Tomatoes is trash, has been for years. Metacritic and UMDb are better IMHO. 

 But the usual YouTube suspects I don't treat as being reliable. Those are Nerdrotic, Geeks and Gamers, Midnights Edge, Overlord DVD etc. They're pushing their agenda and clickbait titles.


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## Morrus (Nov 10, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> if you wait till that 46 male and his kids and grand kids are dead, and then BAM! Star wars is brand new for the great great grand kids who have lived in a world without star wars. It also means they won't have to put with the fans like you and me



I'm waiting for the argument to convince me they should wait until I'm dead? And the people in charge of Disney are also dead. As are you. And your grand children. All because.... you don't like current Star Wars? But I do!

Who gives a crap what films people in 2075 might want to watch? I'm sure they'll have their own thing. Why can't I have my thing in 2020?


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## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

I don't think he was being serious. 

 I took it as a joke that to reimagine Star Wars well you have to wait for the current fans to die off.

What fans want and what Disney are serving up is diverging. Not for everyone of course. Theme park with no OT elements in it, new toys not selling vs old toys, Resistance getting canceled...


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## trappedslider (Nov 10, 2019)

Morrus said:


> I'm waiting for the argument to convince me they should wait until I'm dead? And the people in charge of Disney are also dead. As are you. And your grand children. All because.... you don't like current Star Wars? But I do!
> 
> Who gives a crap what films people in 2075 might want to watch? I'm sure they'll have their own thing. Why can't I have my thing in 2020?



Calm down hoss, who said I didn't like the current SW? I don't like the current *FAN base .*
I was making a joke See:
and how did you miss :



trappedslider said:


> fine but can we ban Zardnaar from seeing it at least?



that right there should have told you I wasn't being serious.


Zardnaar said:


> I don't think he was being serious.
> 
> I took it as a joke that to reimagine Star Wars well you have to wait for the current fans to die off.
> 
> What fans want and what Disney are serving up is diverging. Not for everyone of course. Theme park with no OT elements in it, new toys not selling vs old toys, Resistance getting canceled...




Mr. "BUT THE EU AND CANON" Zardnaar got it.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Calm down hoss, who said I didn't like the current SW? I don't like the current *FAN base .*
> I was making a joke See:
> and how did you miss :
> 
> ...




 I'm very insulted. I may have to X card you at some point.


----------



## Morrus (Nov 10, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> Calm down hoss,




Who, what, now? I'm not a horse?



> Mr. "BUT THE EU AND CANON" Zardnaar got it.




Fortunately, I will no longer know about that.


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## trappedslider (Nov 10, 2019)

Morrus said:


> Who, what, now? I'm not a horse?



(Southern US, slang) A big, strong and respected or dependable person, 
(Southern US, slang, often capitalized) Term of address for a man._What's up, *hoss*?_


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## Morrus (Nov 10, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> (Southern US, slang) A big, strong and respected or dependable person,
> (Southern US, slang, often capitalized) Term of address for a man._What's up, *hoss*?_



OK geez.


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## trappedslider (Nov 10, 2019)

Morrus said:


> OK geez.



well since you are a non American English speaker, i'd thought i would explain under what definition I was hoss.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

I've heard of gods as in hoss fight aka two brutes beating on each other.


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## Legatus Legionis (Nov 10, 2019)

.


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## trappedslider (Nov 10, 2019)

Morrus said:


> It doesn't even say "hoss" in it.
> 
> But since you're a non-English 'English' speaker, so I don't expect you to make much sense.



 It was making fun of the fact that while we both speak English, we're not speaking the same language. But that would require being able to understand humor and not humour


----------



## Morrus (Nov 10, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> It was making fun of the fact that while we both speak English, we're not speaking the same language. But that would require being able to understand humor and not humour



Well, I know_ I'm_ funny. As evidenced by the fact you just explained my joke.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> So is Mike Zeroh, one of the biggest Star Wars fan/sources out there, also one you dismiss outright because the narrative does not match yours?  Even he mentions three different endings of the film in many of his clips.  His delivery is different, but the content is very similar.




 Mike Zeroh is a complete joke makes stuff up as far as I can tell. His hit/miss record is very miss. 

 Reshoots gave been confirmed but that video earlier came from a guy who claimed 75% of the movie got reshoot.

 That's just not viable due to how the movies worked.

 The leaks that a somewhat plausible come from early test screenings and/or from people with shots from the set. 

 You can see who posts it as some do have a good track record with previous leaks. You cross reference what they're saying with a variety of other sources or see what ones claimed what before trailers dropped. 

 Also look at what others say about the claims. It's no big secret RoS has had a lot of reshoots. That by itself isn't bad reshoots happen all the time.

 Alot of them just make videos of what's in Reddit where the decent leaks come from. Dark Fate for example was more or less spoiled in it's entirety. 

 Other leaks are deliberate marketing or otherwise. Lots of leaks that are accurate generally means there's something going on behind the scenes in the production like the producer and director falling out or are a type of preemptive blame game as a movie tanking can destroy a directors career. Generally means the studio knows a movie is bad. Most leaks are test screeners who can't keep their mouths shut.


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## Gradine (Nov 10, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Disney likes aiming stuff at kids. The average Star Wars fan is a 46 year old male.




*Citation needed



Legatus_Legionis said:


> So is Mike Zeroh, one of the biggest Star Wars fan/sources out there, also one you dismiss outright because the narrative does not match yours?




Mike Zeroh is the very first name I think of when I think of completely unreliable sources.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

Gradine said:


> *Citation needed
> 
> 
> 
> Mike Zeroh is the very first name I think of when I think of completely unreliable sources.












						The average Star Wars fan: Male, 46, and loves comics
					





					theweek.com
				




TFA 34









						Average Star Wars: The Force Awakens fan is 34-year-old male
					

Advance ticket purchases for JJ Abrams’ space opera sequel reveal its greatest demographic appeal: among men between ages of 18 and 49




					www.theguardian.com
				




18-44





						The Fans Behind the Force: A Look at the Demographics and Interests of Star Wars Fans
					

With The Force Awakens opening on December 18, we thought we’d dive into the data and see what the digital habits of its fans might tell us about the individual characters that make Star Wars beloved by so many.




					www.quantcast.com
				




 Not kids anyway.

  But some of these YouTubers are reporting on stuff that came out months ago on Reddit.


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## Gradine (Nov 10, 2019)

Mode is perhaps the least useful type of average, especially when we're talking demographics. "This is the most common demographic of fan" is not nearly the same statement as "this is the 'average' fan and we should cater exclusively to them"


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## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

Gradine said:


> Mode is perhaps the least useful type of average, especially when we're talking demographics. "This is the most common demographic of fan" is not nearly the same statement as "this is the 'average' fan and we should cater exclusively to them"




 Movies usually have a target demograph. Sometimes you can make a movie to try and appeal to everyone and it appeals to no one. 


 Look at the heavy use if nostalgia in the RoS trailers, draw your own conclusions who they're aiming it at. Kids won't care about Palpatine.

 And SW fans spend up larger than most. At least pre TFA. 









						‘Star Wars’ Fans Are Bigger Spenders, Research Shows
					

The franchise’s fans spend $4,300 annually, compared to $4,100 for Americans in general.




					www.hollywoodreporter.com


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## Gradine (Nov 10, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Movies usually have a target demograph. Sometimes you can make a movie to try and appeal to everyone and it appeals to no one.
> 
> 
> Look at the heavy use if nostalgia in the RoS trailers, draw your own conclusions who they're aiming it at. Kids won't care about Palpatine.
> ...




I mean sure, that works for individual properties. But when you've got a massive multimedia franchise with broad appeal and a wide range of individual media targeting different demographics ('Forces of Destiny' vs the comic books vs the YA novels vs the cartoon shows, etc.) you don't really get to claim that Star Wars, as a franchise, has a specific demographic fanbase.


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## Gradine (Nov 10, 2019)

Let me put it this way; I'm sure the "average" fan of the MCU and the "average" fan of the DC movies probably look a lot alike, demographically, but the same could almost certainly not be said for their collective fanbases as a whole.


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## ccs (Nov 10, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> And SW fans spend up larger than most. At least pre TFA.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Obviously.  That $200 difference?  That's just the cost of taking yourself + SO & kids to see the damn movie....


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## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

ccs said:


> Obviously.  That $200 difference?  That's just the cost of taking yourself + SO & kids to see the damn movie....




   It's an older demograph that spends more money or at least used to. 

 Iger was evasive in his latest investor call. Obviously he was spinning things but this year was probably peak Disney for a while. Next year there's no SW, Avengers, Lion King, Aladdin, Frozen 2. 

 UDK if he was referring to a hiatus if a few years in regards to 2022 or later. These channels we were talking about take a doing and gloom approach which I don't think is accurate but there's enough out there to indicate things aren't where Disney wants them to be. Cancel movies, TV shows, direct or turnover, toys not selling, Galaxy's edge not doing as well, Solo flopped, EA not doing so great with the game license etc.


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## ccs (Nov 10, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> It's an older demograph that spends more money or at least used to.
> 
> Iger was evasive in his latest investor call. Obviously he was spinning things but this year was probably peak Disney for a while. Next year there's no SW, Avengers, Lion King, Aladdin, Frozen 2.
> 
> UDK if he was referring to a hiatus if a few years in regards to 2022 or later. These channels we were talking about take a doing and gloom approach which I don't think is accurate but there's enough out there to indicate things aren't where Disney wants them to be. Cancel movies, TV shows, direct or turnover, toys not selling, Galaxy's edge not doing as well, Solo flopped, EA not doing so great with the game license etc.




Your like Drax in GoTG aren't you?


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## Zardnaar (Nov 10, 2019)

ccs said:


> Your like Drax in GoTG aren't you?




Who was Dead again? Batista?


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## Umbran (Nov 11, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> Not kids anyway.




I remain unconvinced.

The analysis based on twitter followers is completely bogus in this context.  You aren't going to see many twitter followers of the movie under 11 years old when few people under 11 years old have a twitter account.  The average age of twitter fans, by this selective nature of twitter, won't tell you much about the average age of fans, in general.

And, again, the average age of ticket purchasers doesn't tell you much, for the same reasons - kids usually don't buy their own tickets!  And in the second article you link there, they don't seem to tell us how we get "ticket holders".  It isn't like you have to show ID while holding a ticket.  So, again, questionable statistics.

The third article you cite in this post merely asserts what a typical fan is like - they do not seem to say how they came by that profile.  They don't even say what they mean when they say, "A typical Star Wars fan is likely <x>."  Is that an average, is that, "over 50% of people in the theater fit this profile"? 

So, I don't find any of those statistics convincing.


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## Hussar (Nov 11, 2019)

Shhh, @Umbran, next you're going to have to explain confirmation bias.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 12, 2019)

It just what pops up when you Google starvwars demographs. 

 Someone played the old citation game. That's what's available.

 8 minutes of Carrie Fisher to play with.


 Via her brother.

 This guy avoids spoilers and alarmist type reporting. He's quite interesting when he explains how the industry works behind the scenes.


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## Hussar (Nov 12, 2019)

If you're right @Zardnaar and the average age of a Star Wars fan is a 40 something male, then, well, Star Wars is done.  It's dead and buried.  So, frankly, I rather hope that you are wrong.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 12, 2019)

Well some of the other things gave a broader range. 

 I'm reasonably sure it skews older though or over 18 if not 30. 

 Look at the trailers, pushing Palpatine, OT type star destroyers, Lando, falcon original dish, B and Y wings etc, Death Star 2.

 Doesn't scream aimed at kids right? And the older fans have their own kids. They also cancelled Resistance ND are bring back anew season of Clone Wars. The Mandalorian also has a Rogue One vibe.


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## Hussar (Nov 12, 2019)

I'm just saying that if the demographic for Star Wars is 40+ year old men, then Star Wars might as well be mothballed.  It's just going to fail repeatedly and spectacularly.  40+ year old men are a very, very poor demographic to try to market to.  Particularly things like YA fiction novels, toys and cartoons.  There just aren't enough of us willing to fork over cash which we generally don't have, since we have things like families and whatnot, for something like this.

So, yeah, if you're right, then you are saying that Star Wars is going to flush itself down the toilet in the very near future.


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## Zardnaar (Nov 12, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I'm just saying that if the demographic for Star Wars is 40+ year old men, then Star Wars might as well be mothballed.  It's just going to fail repeatedly and spectacularly.  40+ year old men are a very, very poor demographic to try to market to.  Particularly things like YA fiction novels, toys and cartoons.  There just aren't enough of us willing to fork over cash which we generally don't have, since we have things like families and whatnot, for something like this.
> 
> So, yeah, if you're right, then you are saying that Star Wars is going to flush itself down the toilet in the very near future.




 Why there money's as good as anyone else and they tend to have more than millennials. 

 They're the ones who have probably spend a few decades buying the merchandise. They're the ones who buy the Blu Ray etc for the kids, they're the ones who buy the toys. 

 If you lose them you lose them and the kids. 

 They have more money than the millennials as well. OT toys for example are selling, new ones not so much it seems.


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## Morrus (Nov 12, 2019)

Hussar said:


> There just aren't enough of us willing to fork over cash which we generally don't have, since we have things like families and whatnot, for something like this.



40+ year old men have a lot more cash than children do.


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## Hussar (Nov 14, 2019)

Morrus said:


> 40+ year old men have a lot more cash than children do.




But a lot less disposable cash than teens and young adults.  Which is my point.  If Star Wars' demographics is middle aged men, then Star Wars is on its last legs and we might as well put it out to pasture.


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## Arnwolf666 (Nov 14, 2019)

I’m not going to see it at the cinema. The movies are dead to me. However, I hope they prove me wrong and get good writers and do good things in the future. But I have no expectations.


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## Morrus (Nov 14, 2019)

Hussar said:


> But a lot less disposable cash than teens and young adults.  Which is my point.  If Star Wars' demographics is middle aged men, then Star Wars is on its last legs and we might as well put it out to pasture.



No; they have the most.


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## Mallus (Nov 14, 2019)

My experience is middle-aged people have more money and less _time. _Which, I suppose, is the equivalent of money under certain conceptual regimes. 

Anyway... it seems weird to be discussing Star Wars in terms of marketing niches. TFA made a little over 2 billion dollars globally. Star Wars movies target _the planet_.


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## Morrus (Nov 14, 2019)

Mallus said:


> My experience is middle-aged people have more money and less _time._
> 
> Anyway... it seems weird to be discussing Star Wars in terms of marketing niches. TFA made a little over 2 billion dollars globally. Star Wars movies target _the planet_.



Yeah. No franchise which has made over $3 billion in the last few years is struggling by any rational sense of the word.


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## lowkey13 (Nov 14, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Gradine (Nov 14, 2019)

A Bob's Burgers movie?? O_O


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## trappedslider (Nov 14, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> New Mutants (final Fox marvel X-Men)



maybe


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## lowkey13 (Nov 14, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## ccs (Nov 14, 2019)

trappedslider said:


> maybe




Probably.
I wouldn't want to put any $ on a bet that Disney doesn't fold the X-Men & co. into the main Marvel brand.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 14, 2019)

ccs said:


> Probably.
> I wouldn't want to put any $ on a bet that Disney doesn't fold the X-Men & co. into the main Marvel brand.




Eventually, sure.  But the New Mutants movie already filmed may not be part of the vehicle for doing that.  Also note that the production cost of this film was sunk before the deal - nobody at Disney is responsible for it, so they may not be attached to it or feel their bacon is on the line for it.


----------



## GreyLord (Nov 14, 2019)

Morrus said:


> 40+ year old men have a lot more cash than children do.




True.

It could be likely that, as I have with the previous Star Wars films, after I've seen it at opening, I will end up going a second time with a bunch of kids and grandkids in tow.

Whichever ones of them beg me to take them.


----------



## ccs (Nov 14, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Eventually, sure.  But the New Mutants movie already filmed may not be part of the vehicle for doing that.  Also note that the production cost of this film was sunk before the deal - nobody at Disney is responsible for it, so they may not be attached to it or feel their bacon is on the line for it.




I was referring to the idea that NM would _maybe_ be the final *Fox* X-Men movie.

I'm sure Disney will throw it out there.  Either in theaters or on +.  No reason not to (even if they maybe don't spend alot promoting it).
But I really doubt future X movies will be made under the Fox brand.  So yeah, probably the last Fox X-movie.


----------



## Umbran (Nov 14, 2019)

ccs said:


> No reason not to ....




There are reasons not to.  Any distribution has costs.  A distribution also has opportunity costs (there are only so many movies folks are willing to see in a given period).  Also, if someone at Marvel has _other_ plans for the New Mutants characters, putting his movie out may not be aligned with that other idea, especially if this troubled movie isn't very good.


----------



## trappedslider (Nov 14, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Tru dat. That may end up being buried.



One of the theaters here still has a movie poster for it that says April lol


----------



## Istbor (Nov 15, 2019)

Movie still looks interesting.
Get to see it through work at a pre-release, so nice. Get a free ticket, and meal out of it for the small price of listening to a pitch on product.


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## doctorbadwolf (Nov 17, 2019)

Hussar said:


> I'm just saying that if the demographic for Star Wars is 40+ year old men, then Star Wars might as well be mothballed.  It's just going to fail repeatedly and spectacularly.  40+ year old men are a very, very poor demographic to try to market to.  Particularly things like YA fiction novels, toys and cartoons.  There just aren't enough of us willing to fork over cash which we generally don't have, since we have things like families and whatnot, for something like this.
> 
> So, yeah, if you're right, then you are saying that Star Wars is going to flush itself down the toilet in the very near future.



I mean, been to galaxys edge yet? Def not dominated by 40+ dudes.


----------



## Istbor (Nov 19, 2019)

Nope. No kids yet, and I don't live near Florida.

If either of those things were different, I would probably check it out.


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## cmad1977 (Nov 19, 2019)

If you think Disney is producing properties for the 40+ demographic... 

I think you’re not too clear on exactly what Disney is.


----------

