# What's Better than Auto Realm?



## yu gnomi (Jul 23, 2008)

I just downloaded and installed Auto Realm a few days ago and have been messing around with it. I am happy enough with the appearance of maps it produces (although I haven't printed any out yet). The quality is better than I expected from freeware.

My issue is that the program is as buggy as all get out. It crashes frequently and often behaves bizarrely during normal operations like panning, line drawing and moving/resizing objects.  

I would like feedback from other DMs who make their own maps, on what software they use. I am mainly interested in dungeon making software, not professional cartography or do-all graphics software, unless it can easily be adapted to dungeon making. Especially interested in freeware, but would probably blow money on one good investment.

I am attaching a sample file made with Auto Realm. Will be interested in anything that can make images as good or better.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 23, 2008)

*It depends*

Autorealm is not bad for a dungeon generating application that is free. Although I've never used and probably never will. There are many applications that create nice looking dungeon maps. But it really depends on you.

For the free apps - Inkscape is an Open Source app much like Adobe Illustraor, though has somewhat of a learning curve. More complex than Autorealm, but then Inkscape is a full fledged desktop publishing application than just a simple map generator.

For paid for applications, both ProFantasy Campaign Cartographer 3 with addon Dungeon Designer, and Fluid's Dundjinni make high quality dungeon maps - both are priced around $40 USD.

While CC3 can create world maps, regional maps, city maps and dungeon maps at various scales, Dundjinni is ideal for tactical scale maps where 1 inch = 5 feet indoor/outdoor/dungeon maps. Both also hava huge community support with plenty of free map objects available.

Many prefer the freedom of using a vector application like Inkscape or a raster image editor like GIMP, both are free and extremely powerful. I would highly recommend GIMP and visit the cartographersguild.com site tutorials forum and search for RobA's tutorial for a regional map with GIMP as a place to start.

In the end it depends on you, what you're comfortable with and what you are willing to learn.

I use a combination of GIMP, and mostly Xara Xtreme for my mapping tools. Visit cartographer's guild to see each of these apps in action throughout the various posts. Pick a style you like, ask questions about it and you will get some excellent advice.

GP


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## yu gnomi (Jul 23, 2008)

I am mainly interested in programs that are fairly easy to use. I will probably be making adventure maps and dungeon maps for my own use as a DM, and only occasionally be making battle maps for players. I've downloaded sets of tiles, walls, doors etc. for encounters. So the maps I make do not have to be works of art. Players will only see them after adventure is over.

I have visited cartographersguild.com and frankly am a bit over awed by the maps posted there. They are better than anything I'm going to do in the near future. I plan on sticking with symbolic hex maps for large scale maps and square grid for lairs and towns. 

Another thing that I would like to know, is if any of the available programs can load a jpeg or png image and modify it. I'm sure Paintshop does, but I do not have it, and I believe it is out of my price range (I'm not going over $50 if I can help it).


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## gamerprinter (Jul 23, 2008)

*Recommend downloading GIMP*

I recommend downloading GIMP which is an application like Photoshop or Paintshop, except that it is FREE. There is a bit of a learning curve, but cartographersguild.com offers some excellent tutorials for creating maps in GIMP that can get you up to speed quickly.

Frankly, I'd recommend the proggie that I use: Xara Xtreme, especially because its fast, easy to use, quick to grasp and very powerful - though it does cost $79 so I think that's out of your price range. There is a free Lynx version for Xara. I use Xara to easily create transparent PNG objects.

Good luck in your search!

GP

PS: Almost all the apps listed in my above two posts can import JPG or PNG


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 24, 2008)

You also have NDOS' Fractal Mapper, $40.  It is a complete mapper, easy to use and has a number of great features.   

http://www.nbos.com/products/mapper/mapper.htm

As a mapper, I use Campagin Cartogragher, and will say that it is best to download the demos and find the best on for your needs.  Each mapper has different requirements and ways of doing things, find the program that work for you.  Other words, you get out what you put into the application.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 24, 2008)

*Best for my workflow...*

I own and use ProFantasy Campaign Cartographer 3, Dungeon Designer and City Designer. I also have NBOS Fractal Mapper, Fluid Dundjinni. Despite having familiarity with these dedicated mapping apps.

CC3/DD3/CD3 as well as Fractal Mapper are CAD based (computer aided drafting) applications not unlike AutoCAD, but with tools especially suited to making fantasy maps.

As Hand of Evil suggests, if you are learning CC3, read the tutorials available and download the demos. Know this, CC3 has a very steep learning curve, despite its dominance in the mapping field.

Dundjinni is more of a stamp and tile application, really a more professional version of what Autorealm is.

Long experience using graphics applications (almost 30 years using Micrografx Designer & Picture Publisher, neither in existence anymore) have taught me using a desktop publishing application like Xara, Illustrator or Inkscape is faster and more powerful than the dedicated mapping apps above.

GP


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## gamerprinter (Jul 24, 2008)

*Best for my workflow...*

I own and use ProFantasy Campaign Cartographer 3, Dungeon Designer and City Designer. I also have NBOS Fractal Mapper, Fluid Dundjinni. Despite having familiarity with these dedicated mapping apps.

CC3/DD3/CD3 as well as Fractal Mapper are CAD based (computer aided drafting) applications not unlike AutoCAD, but with tools especially suited to making fantasy maps.

As Hand of Evil suggests, if you are learning CC3, read the tutorials available and download the demos. Know this, CC3 has a very steep learning curve, despite its dominance in the mapping field.

Dundjinni is more of a stamp and tile application, really a more professional version of what Autorealm is.

Long experience using graphics applications (almost 30 years using Micrografx Designer & Picture Publisher, neither in existence anymore) have taught me using a desktop publishing application like Xara, Illustrator or Inkscape is faster and more powerful than the dedicated mapping apps above.

GP


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## yu gnomi (Jul 24, 2008)

Thank you to all who posted for helpful suggestions. I have sworn off Auto realm completely as the more I use it, the more bugs I discover (objects now bleed through layers or vanish completely whenever I save). 

I have recently downloaded Dundjinni demo, and played around briefly. My first impression is that I like it, it's learning curve seems to be about zero. I am currently downloading Xara extreme demo. 

As it turns out I had already downloaded both Gimp and Inkscape when I originally downloaded Autorealm, but never installed them and forgot that I had even downloaded them. 

Providing that I have no problems installing them with my crippled operating system (win update broke my operating system and I can currently only run in safe mode), I should have a good variety of programs to experiment with.


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## gamerprinter (Jul 25, 2008)

*Got some tutorials for Xara*

Some Mapping Tutorials with Xara Xtreme, I've created.

In the Tutorials Forum at Cartographersguild.com, I have a couple tutorials using Xara to create maps, and few older ones as well...

Winterscape Map Tutorial - a good focus on tools creating a snowy wilderness tactical scale map: http://forum.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=2226

Creating Regional/Continental Maps using Xara Xtreme 4.0: http://forum.cartographersguild.com/showthread.php?t=2432

Creating a basic inn (PDF) this is two of my older tuts: 
http://www.gamer-printshop.com/resource/advanced-tutorial.pdf

http://www.gamer-printshop.com/resource/issue-2-tutorial.pdf

Since you downloaded Xara, I thought I'd give you a mapping quick-start. Unfortunately, I don't have any dungeon map tutorials, yet. I'm working on a tut for another site just now, but I could do a quickee dungeon map tut next week for you.

GP


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## torstan (Jul 27, 2008)

Definitely don't feel over-awed by the maps on the cartographer's guild. The map you posted above is great start and would be a good first map to post over there to get some comments and advice. They (we I guess) are a friendly bunch and you'll get much better help there than from the documentation of any of the programs mentioned by GP.

I'd recommend getting a hand-drawn sketch - or autorealm sketch - of the map you want to draw and posting that and then creating it in Gimp. Post your work in progress and ask advice when you get stuck. You'll learn the program very quickly that way. But don't feel intimidated about asking advice.

My maps are over there and a bit further down this forum. I use Gimp for their creation and am happy to offer pointers as you learn Gimp.


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## yu gnomi (Jul 27, 2008)

Actually I have been to Cartographers Guild sight repeatedly since installing Xara. I am a member, although I have not posted anything. I mainly followed links to download texture images for fills.

Once I get a little bit of a better handle on how Xara works, I am going to start following Gamer Poster's tutorials. I hope that he does one on Dungeon making.

I am still holding off on installing Gimp until I get Xara down pat. But I am sure that I will be interested in learning how to use it. I will look for your maps next time I visit Cartographer's Guild.


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## castlewalls (Jul 27, 2008)

Coreldraw is pretty good at making maps too but you've got to draw everything yourself unless you have access to 'objects' you can import such as beds, trees, etc. If you've got a digital camera, you can take pics of real trees, rocks, etc. and modify them. There's all sorts of possibilities...
-Jim
http://home.comcast.net/~castle.walls/gameweb/


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## gamerprinter (Jul 27, 2008)

*Try this quick tutorial*

Yu Gnomi,

I'm working on the dungeon map tutorial today and I'll be using your Autorealm design for one part so you could replicate this design and Xara, plus I focus on basic map objects and specific objects like stairs, pits, etc.

The great thing with this kind of program is that you can use the many PNG map objects that exist on the Dundjinni forums, the CSUAC - which means there are thousands of pre-created map objects that you can incorporate into your map designs.

I see you said "Once you get a handle on how Xara work..." I think the best way to learn the tools is to dabble with the tutorials right away. They show you where the tools are and what you can do with them. It should give you ideas on how to use those techniques for a completely different situation.

Here's a quick, step-by-step tutorial on creating mountains and forests. I wrote for a GIS Analyst (pro real-world mappers) forum - I show every tool and submenu used so beginners can get a grasp right away. Try this one, as you'll learn to: bevel, feather, use transparency, apply texture fills, all of which you'll be doing in the dungeon tutorial as well.

http://www.gamer-printshop.com/resource/xtreme-tutorial.pdf

This is a 10 page tutorial, approx: 1.9 MB size with hypertext links.

GP

PS: I should have the dungeon tutorial posted this evening or tomorrow morning.


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## yu gnomi (Jul 29, 2008)

Again thank you to everyone posting for helpful ideas. I  am committed to learning ins and outs of using Xara, and already have a fully functional version of it installed.

My main issue with learning to use it, had nothing at all to do with the program being difficult to work with (learning the basics isn't difficult). It had something to do with plain sloth on my part. But it mostly had to do with resolving my recently solved Windows XP problem.

To wit, after installing several graphics programs while stuck operating in Safe Mode, I found that the only likely solution to fixing my operating system was to System Restore to a point long before I had downloaded any of these programs. After System Restore fixed my OS, I had to re-install several programs (including Xara), and fix a few other issues as well. I also re-downloaded all movie tutorials, fills, clipart, etc for Xara.

I am now happily messing around with Xara, which seems to be a 1000% more capable than any graphics software I have previously used. I will almost certainly install Gimp, but want to concentrate on mastering one piece of software at a time. If Xara can work with Dundjinni icons, then I will probably do without Dundjinni. The Dundjinni demo didn't survive my System Restore, and I haven't re-downloaded it yet.

I have downloaded every tutorial Gamer Printer has posted. I look forward to the Dungeon Making one. The only big issue I have with Xara is wrt Dungeon Making, specifically I don't know an expedient way to put doors, treasure chests, book cases, etc. into maps. I am hoping the tutorial helps me with this.


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## gamerprinter (Aug 1, 2008)

*Dungeon Tutorial with Xara*

Here's the Dungeon Tutorial using Xara Xtreme 4.0 that I promised.

Its a 3.72 MB, 9 page PDF file that focuses on creating implied 3D effects using bevels, shadows and photo elements to create a realistic dungeon fast and easy.

Also a couple pages are dedicated to creating quick map objects like: doors, stairs, trestle tables and benches, crates, barrels and a pile of hay, to combine with your PNG map objects and whip out a cool dungeon.

http://www.gamer-printshop.com/resource/dungeon-xara.pdf

GP


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## gamerprinter (Aug 4, 2008)

*Mini Xara Tutorial*

Here's a mini 5 page tutorial using Xara Xtreme 4.0's Combine Shapes functions. Many special effects especially useful for mapping and creating map objects rely on the Combine Shapes feature.

You can even get secondary uses on all your existing top-down mini objects using the Combine Shapes > Slice operation.

http://www.gamer-printshop.com/resource/combine-tutorial.pdf

GP


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## Jürgen Hubert (Aug 7, 2008)

A bunch of cartography tutorials for GIMP and Inkscape can be found here.


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## fademaster (Feb 23, 2011)

*RPGplaneMapMaker*

MAPS | RPGplane

these 3 maps were made in 5 minutes with RPGplaneMapMaker.


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