# Hexsorcadin 6/1/13 vs Sorcadin 6/14 - is SAD worth it?



## Benny89

Let's say you are Variant Humna, you have War Caster and +2 CHA and you are level 6. Time has come to decide how to build your Sorcadin. 

So it's between Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 13 (Divine Soul or Shadow)

vs Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 (Divine or Shadow).


In case of first one you can take +2 CHA on next ASI and be SAD CHA, spell DC, attack etc. But you lose 9th level slot (which while you don't know 9th level slots can be used for something like Spiritual Guardians etc.) but you also get 7th level magic same as 6/14. But you delay Sorcerer stuff by 1 level and end up with 13 sorc points. We also get Shield and Armor of Agathys. Also then you have freedom of feats as you don't have to fous on maxing both attack and spell stat.

In second, classic build next ASI would have to go to STR (or DEX if you are DEX) to get 18 there as you won't use CHA. And so the next ASI probably. So you delay 20 CHA by a long or you won't have decent Attack stat. Also investing here in STR might later seems like waste if you find Giant Belt. We get faster Sorc progression by 1 level and end up with 14 sorc points. But we still only now max of 7th level spells. And we get 9th level slot.

All in all- I think 1 level dip is not that big delay for what it gives overall. What do you think?


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## Yunru

Personally I think "drop the Sorcerer", but then I've never got the point of Sorcadins.


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## Benny89

Yunru said:


> Personally I think "drop the Sorcerer", but then I've never got the point of Sorcadins.




I guess the point is more spell slots, more variety of spells, still access to both Sorcere and Cleric spells, quicken Hold spells, AoE CC spells, damage spells, melee cantrips, defense spells etc etc. More Nova, Font of Magic, Metamagic and so on.

And you didn't really answer the question of this thread....


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Let's say you are Variant Humna, you have War Caster and +2 CHA and you are level 6. Time has come to decide how to build your Sorcadin.
> 
> So it's between Paladin 6/Hexblade 1/Sorcerer 13 (Divine Soul or Shadow)
> 
> vs Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 (Divine or Shadow).
> 
> 
> In case of first one you can take +2 CHA on next ASI and be SAD CHA, spell DC, attack etc. But you lose 9th level slot (which while you don't know 9th level slots can be used for something like Spiritual Guardians etc.) but you also get 7th level magic same as 6/14. But you delay Sorcerer stuff by 1 level and end up with 13 sorc points. We also get Shield and Armor of Agathys. Also then you have freedom of feats as you don't have to fous on maxing both attack and spell stat.
> 
> In second, classic build next ASI would have to go to STR (or DEX if you are DEX) to get 18 there as you won't use CHA. And so the next ASI probably. So you delay 20 CHA by a long or you won't have decent Attack stat. Also investing here in STR might later seems like waste if you find Giant Belt. We get faster Sorc progression by 1 level and end up with 14 sorc points. But we still only now max of 7th level spells. And we get 9th level slot.
> 
> All in all- I think 1 level dip is not that big delay for what it gives overall. What do you think?




Can I offer some advice.  

A large portion of your damage as a Paladin 6 sorcerer X is going to come from your smites and quicken spell.  Is it really worth boosting str beyond 16ish even if you don't take hexblade?  Instead take charisma for better saves (including concentration saves) and better spell DC's, and better social skills .  You'll still hit enough with 16 str to smite anything to death and booming blade anything to death.

The 2nd piece of advice is that if you are going to go hexblade do so right around 2nd ASI which is when you can normally have 20 charisma.  For yours that is character level 10.  You would take hexblade at character level 11.

I would take hexblade just cause it seems like a bigger bonus by that time than anything else I could get and level 9 spell slots without level 9 spells are a bit lackluster IMO.


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## FrogReaver

Honestly I would consider college of swords bard over sorcerer for this build.  It solves your spell focus problem.  The defensive dice make you nearly impossible to hit.  You can take the duelist fighting style with it so you can also have the defensive style with your paladin levels.  You get rituals which are surprisingly really fun.  You get expertise and jack of all trades to give you some great skills.  The only downside is that you won't really have everything come online till level 12 or 13, which I guess if we are being honest your sorcerer version only really comes online by level 11 or 12.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> Honestly I would consider college of swords bard over sorcerer for this build.  It solves your spell focus problem.  The defensive dice make you nearly impossible to hit.  You can take the duelist fighting style with it so you can also have the defensive style with your paladin levels.  You get rituals which are surprisingly really fun.  You get expertise and jack of all trades to give you some great skills.  The only downside is that you won't really have everything come online till level 12 or 13, which I guess if we are being honest your sorcerer version only really comes online by level 11 or 12.




Thank you for both of your advices! I think you are correct to wait for level 10 with Hex dip. Maybe I will find Giant Belt till then, which will allow me to skip Hex.

I already took Dueling for my sword n board Sorcadin so College of swords style would go to waste. Besides I really want to play with meta magic, especially quicken Hold Person etc.

What do you think- Shadow or Divine Soul? I like Darkvision and Hound but so I like Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians and Holy Weapon spells


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## FrogReaver

Having spirit guardians as an option is nice. 

Spiritual weapon always feels overrated to me in an actual game in my experience.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> Having spirit guardians as an option is nice.
> 
> Spiritual weapon always feels overrated to me in an actual game in my experience.




Not saying it's "super strong", but it allows to save Sorc Points in a fight where you don't really need to go full ham on enemies. Spiritual Weapon will give you that bonus attack for a price of one slot as opposed to use Quicken every turn or some damaging spell.

At least that is what I think.

But in your opinion is Divine Souls extra spells worth over Shadow? I really think Holy Weapon is great (especially twinned for other ally) buff to weapon and Spirit Guardians will add more damage and CC in long run than one Fireball. It's just what I think. 

Also Quicken Heal + Lay Down Hands is easy 100 hp heal in one turn too.


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## FrogReaver

I’d lean toward divine soul.  Darkvision isn’t worth it when you can just use the light cantrip.  

Being able to see through magical darkness and casting darkness is strong In theory but it’s not very party friendly and that makes it impractical. 

All in all I’d say neither subclass is particularly strong for you but divine soul is probably a little stronger than shadow.


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## FrogReaver

what race and feat if applicable did you start with?


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## FrogReaver

Yunru said:


> Personally I think "drop the Sorcerer", but then I've never got the point of Sorcadins.





If I do a sorcadin it tends to be just for 2 levels of paladin and then levels of sorcerer.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> I’d lean toward divine soul.  Darkvision isn’t worth it when you can just use the light cantrip.
> 
> Being able to see through magical darkness and casting darkness is strong In theory but it’s not very party friendly and that makes it impractical.
> 
> All in all I’d say neither subclass is particularly strong for you but divine soul is probably a little stronger than shadow.






FrogReaver said:


> what race and feat if applicable did you start with?




Do you think some other Origin is stronger for Sorcadin 6/X than Divine or Shadow? I know Draconic has it's uses for fire spell and GFB with with extra attack I won't use GFB much and fire spells apart from fireball or scorching ray are not that great to take. And fire is most resisted damage type I think. What other Origin?

I started Variant Human Paladin 1 with War Caster (DM allowed), then 1 level Sorcerer for BB, GFB and Shield, then Paladin to level 5 I will take +2 CHA, then Push Paladin to 6 for Aura, then take 3 levels Sorcerer for 10 level and +2 CHA ASI and then I will see if continue (hope to get Giant Belt) or dip Hexblade. So at level 10 I will Have War Caster, 20 CHA.

Then I plan to take Shield Master for that awesome Dex saves boost (as I will be standing in front of all breath type monsters) and then probably Mobile or Inspiring Leader. I was also thinking of RES (CON) instead of Shield Master but I will see if War Caster and +5 Aura will be enough with CON 14.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> If I do a sorcadin it tends to be just for 2 levels of paladin and then levels of sorcerer.




Not an option, I need to also be a tank for my team and Aura and Extra attack are too strong for that. Besides I want to be more melee than caster as I prefer to smite things instead of disintegrate them adn 6/14 seems like perfect balance. 2/18 is just Sorcerer with option to smite in melee, if he ever wants to get there. 6/14 is to dive in and destroy, while being extremely hard to take down by both damage and save-spells.


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## UngeheuerLich

I think I'd do option 3. 6 Paladin levels, 11 Sorcer levels and 3 levels of Hexblade. You still have level 6 spells which covers all you need, and level 2 hexblade spells, access to blade warlock feat (the one that allows it to be used as a focus and makes it magical) and agonizing blast to make it a real useful tool as quickened spell. Without agonizing blast it is a normal cantrip. You could forfeit the improved pact weapon invocation and take the grasp of hadar invocation to pull an enemy up to 40ft towards you as a bonus action.


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## Benny89

[



UngeheuerLich said:


> I think I'd do option 3. 6 Paladin levels, 11 Sorcer levels and 3 levels of Hexblade. You still have level 6 spells which covers all you need, and level 2 hexblade spells, access to blade warlock feat (the one that allows it to be used as a focus and makes it magical) and agonizing blast to make it a real useful tool as quickened spell. Without agonizing blast it is a normal cantrip. You could forfeit the improved pact weapon invocation and take the grasp of hadar invocation to pull an enemy up to 40ft towards you as a bonus action.




While I appreciate your proposition- I don't want to dip more than 1 Hexblade. Even that 1 I would prefer not to but I can't be sure if I will find STR boosting item, but I think till 10 level I can manage with 16 STR. Also since I will be SnB, I don't really need Pact Blade for that. 

But thank you nevertheless for help


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Not an option, I need to also be a tank for my team and Aura and Extra attack are too strong for that. Besides I want to be more melee than caster as I prefer to smite things instead of disintegrate them adn 6/14 seems like perfect balance. 2/18 is just Sorcerer with option to smite in melee, if he ever wants to get there. 6/14 is to dive in and destroy, while being extremely hard to take down by both damage and save-spells.




Paladin 2 sorcerer x tanks very well. High ac and shield is a strong combo.  Absorb elements for elemental damages.  That said the saving through bonus is always enticing. 

The melee cantrips and higher spell slots and more sorecery points tend to keep your damage competitive with a comination that gets extra attack. All you do is smite and green flame blade bonus action green flame blade etc. 

The only downside is the saves but the upside is that the useful spells I’m getting all come online a full 4 levels faster. 

In the end I do it this way because it gets my concept up and running the fastest with the only trade off really being better saves vs more higher level spells and spell slots.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Do you think some other Origin is stronger for Sorcadin 6/X than Divine or Shadow? I know Draconic has it's uses for fire spell and GFB with with extra attack I won't use GFB much and fire spells apart from fireball or scorching ray are not that great to take. And fire is most resisted damage type I think. What other Origin?
> 
> I started Variant Human Paladin 1 with War Caster (DM allowed), then 1 level Sorcerer for BB, GFB and Shield, then Paladin to level 5 I will take +2 CHA, then Push Paladin to 6 for Aura, then take 3 levels Sorcerer for 10 level and +2 CHA ASI and then I will see if continue (hope to get Giant Belt) or dip Hexblade. So at level 10 I will Have War Caster, 20 CHA.
> 
> Then I plan to take Shield Master for that awesome Dex saves boost (as I will be standing in front of all breath type monsters) and then probably Mobile or Inspiring Leader. I was also thinking of RES (CON) instead of Shield Master but I will see if War Caster and +5 Aura will be enough with CON 14.




The point was that all sorcerer subclasses are weak for this concept. I think divine soul ends up being the best of the bad if you will.  But the difference between it and dragon or it and shadow is such a small power difference that it really is inconsequential IMO. 

The point of taking sorcerer for this character is for spell slots and quicken spell. The subclasses just add a little flavor IMO.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> Paladin 2 sorcerer x tanks very well. High ac and shield is a strong combo.  Absorb elements for elemental damages.  That said the saving through bonus is always enticing.
> 
> The melee cantrips and higher spell slots and more sorecery points tend to keep your damage competitive with a comination that gets extra attack.
> 
> The only downside is the saves but the upside is that the useful spells I’m getting all come online a full 4 levels faster.
> 
> In the end I do it this way because it gets my concept up and running the fastest with the only trade off really being better saves vs more higher level spells and spell slots.




I get you, but I like +5 saves and also getting for free Hold Person and Misty Step from Vengeance Oath, same I like to have VoE for Boss where I can go full ham with 2 attacks with Smites + quicken Cantrip  + Smite. Also +5 Aura + Haste + Shield Master and you laugh at all DEX saves.

I like melee cantrips, but I prefer to have extra attack with Smite and while I know melee cantrips are strong, extra attack is always extra chance to hit and not lose all of your melee damage in one turn. And Extra Attack goes well with VoE and Haste/Holy Weapon. It's also better combo for Quicken Hold -> Two attacks with Smites. Besides I can still melee cantrip if I want . Which is also what I like about 6/14- it gives more options and more "jack of all trades" feeling to it. But I see merits in 2/18 build I will definitely try it on next character. Or Sorlock 17/3.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> The point was that all sorcerer subclasses are weak for this concept. I think divine soul ends up being the best of the bad if you will.  But the difference between it and dragon or it and shadow is such a small power difference that it really is inconsequential IMO.
> 
> The point of taking sorcerer for this character is for spell slots and quicken spell. The subclasses just add a little flavor IMO.




Thank you! Divine Soul it is then. Will go nicely with Vengeance and "Divine Avenger" feeling to it


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## jgsugden

You are going to be playing this character a long time before you need to worry about 20th level. I'd forget that level's impacts and focus on what makes the next few levels fun and what is the most interesting for the PC's story.  You'll be happier.


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## Benny89

jgsugden said:


> You are going to be playing this character a long time before you need to worry about 20th level. I'd forget that level's impacts and focus on what makes the next few levels fun and what is the most interesting for the PC's story.  You'll be happier.




Appreciate it. You are correct. We expect to play to at least to level 16, but it's better to keep your hopes in check.


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## Benny89

Question: Is Armor of Agathys worth casting from level 8 or 9 slot for +40/45 HP and 40/45 retaliation damage? 

Seems like AoA could be very strong spell on front line tank Sorcadin.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Question: Is Armor of Agathys worth casting from level 8 or 9 slot for +40/45 HP and 40/45 retaliation damage?
> 
> Seems like AoA could be very strong spell on front line tank Sorcadin.




It only lasts an hour. With your ac and shield spell the only thing that likely hits you is breath weapons and such. Those likely have the potential to take it off in a single hit.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> It only lasts an hour. With your ac and shield spell the only thing that likely hits you is breath weapons and such. Those likely have the potential to take it off in a single hit.




Thank you. Considering I will have level 8 and 9 slot free- what are some spells from lower tiers that are worth being casted from such high slots (if any)?


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## Blue

Is SAD worth it?  Tell me your parameters.  It is completely different environment in a level 20 white room vs. playing levels 1-20 and spending time at each level.  Which is different than starting at 5th, which is different than starting at 10th.

How the character plays through your first 2-3 ASIs will tell you if spending a level for SAD - but also delaying other things by getting that level is great, unacceptable, or just another path.  And since that's likely close to half your total time playing the character IF you start at 1st, that's really where you want to focus you effort in order to have an answer to the question.

Unless, as I said, your parameters are different.  Starting at a different level.  Rolled ability scores.  Who knows.  But a level 1-20 game that's what you should look at; looking at it only for the last 5% of play can be actively misleading in terms of how it plays for the large swaths of the character's early adventuring career.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Thank you. Considering I will have level 8 and 9 slot free- what are some spells from lower tiers that are worth being casted from such high slots (if any)?




animate objects
hold monster
mass suggestion

Those would be my top picks for your level 8 and 9 slots.  They all have very nice scaling capabilities.  They all can single handedly turn almost any given combat.


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## Benny89

Blue said:


> Is SAD worth it?  Tell me your parameters.  It is completely different environment in a level 20 white room vs. playing levels 1-20 and spending time at each level.  Which is different than starting at 5th, which is different than starting at 10th.
> 
> How the character plays through your first 2-3 ASIs will tell you if spending a level for SAD - but also delaying other things by getting that level is great, unacceptable, or just another path.  And since that's likely close to half your time playing the character IF you start at 1st, that's really where you want to focus you effort in order to have an answer to the question.
> 
> Unless, as I said, your parameters are different.  Starting at a different level.  Rolled ability scores.  Who knows.  But a level 1-20 game that's what you should look at; looking at it only for the last 5% of play is worse then useless, it's actively misleading.




Don't know what parameters are but I will start with Vuman 16,8,14,8,10,16 and War Caster feat and Paladin level 1. Then second level I want to grab Sorc for GFB, BB and Shield and then go straight to Paladin 6 (melee cantrips should carry me to level 5 no problem and 6 is Aura so better not delay it). My second ASI will be +2 CHA and on level 10 (6 Pal/4 Sorc) +CHA again as was recommended here. Then I want to decide if I want to go Hexblade or continue Sorc. For fighing style I will take Dueling. 

DM said this campaign should take us to at least levels 16.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Don't know what parameters are but I will start with Vuman 16,8,14,8,10,16 and War Caster feat and Paladin level 1. Then second level I want to grab Sorc for GFB, BB and Shield and then go straight to Paladin 6 (melee cantrips should carry me to level 5 no problem and 6 is Aura so better not delay it). My second ASI will be +2 CHA and on level 10 (6 Pal/4 Sorc) +CHA again as was recommended here. Then I want to decide if I want to go Hexblade or continue Sorc. For fighing style I will take Dueling.
> 
> DM said this campaign should take us to at least levels 16.




Have you considered the following:

Modify stats to something like 13 16 12 8 8 16 (I'm not sure if that's possible but you should be able to get close).  Use medium armor and a rapier (or short sword if you hate the flavor of rapier).  Start level 1 as sorcerer and have level 2 be your first level of paladin.

It gives you con saves which are important to you and much better initiative for slightly less efficient starting ASI's and slightly less AC and Hp.


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> Have you considered the following:
> 
> Modify stats to something like 13 16 12 8 8 16 (I'm not sure if that's possible but you should be able to get close).  Use medium armor and a rapier (or short sword if you hate the flavor of rapier).  Start level 1 as sorcerer and have level 2 be your first level of paladin.
> 
> It gives you con saves which are important to you and much better initiative for slightly less efficient starting ASI's and slightly less AC and Hp.




Hi. Thanks for suggestion, but I like WIS saves proficiency as CON are of course important but I have to pick War Caster anyway while WIS-save based spells usually mean being totally disabled. I prefer to have plate armor than medium armor. Your suggestion is good of course but I can't imagine Paladin armor without plate armor . Since I will have all crucial ASI on level 10 anyway I can always grab RES (CON) if needed later. I would need to grab RES (WIS) later anyway following your suggestion as I can't imagine tank in front line not having one and being eliminated from fight by one disable spell. Losing CONC is bad, but you can just recast it next turn. While being disabled is well..... 

But I see your suggestion, I just don't find DEX and no-plate armor going well with Paladins. Personal preference.

And I like STR versitiality bettter as I can use both fineasse and non-fineasse weapons with it, which goes well with our DM as he likes to hand out a lot of strange magic items


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## Benny89

Can  I have one more question?: What spells would you all recommend picking up as Divine Sorcerer from both spell lists?

Also, what do you think about feat: Elemental Adept (fire)? 

This allows me to ignore fire elemental resistance of enemies so I could use my fireball, scorching ray or GFB more reliable. But I don't know if this is worth over Shield Master or RES (CON) or Inspiring Leader later.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Can  I have one more question?: What spells would you all recommend picking up as Divine Sorcerer from both spell lists?
> 
> Also, what do you think about feat: Elemental Adept (fire)?
> 
> This allows me to ignore fire elemental resistance of enemies so I could use my fireball, scorching ray or GFB more reliable. But I don't know if this is worth over Shield Master or RES (CON) or Inspiring Leader later.




Approach it this way:  what spells Do you have access to from your paladin list?  What spells do you have prepared from that list. Usually that covers most of the early cleric spells I’d want with a divine soul sorcerer. Once those are identified I think we can have a better idea about what gaps your sorcerer spells need to be. 

Also, are you interested in having spells for the exploration and social pillars or just for combat?


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> Approach it this way:  what spells Do you have access to from your paladin list?  What spells do you have prepared from that list. Usually that covers most of the early cleric spells I’d want with a divine soul sorcerer. Once those are identified I think we can have a better idea about what gaps your sorcerer spells need to be.
> 
> Also, are you interested in having spells for the exploration and social pillars or just for combat?




Mostly combat and CC, because I have another party member who likes to lead in social pillars so I don't want to get in a way too much. But I know that things like Suggestion and Mass Suggestion are great in both CC and social.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Mostly combat and CC, because I have another party member who likes to lead in social pillars so I don't want to get in a way too much. But I know that things like Suggestion and Mass Suggestion are great in both CC and social.




So you can prepare at most 8 paladin spells from level 1 and 2 spells.  This shouldn’t be difficult because after the first 4 or 5 the options become lackluster.

I’d assume
Bless
Cure wounds
Find steed
Wrathful smite
Command
Maybe heroism. 

I think that’s the important ones. 

That frees up alotnof the divine soul spells


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## Benny89

FrogReaver said:


> So you can prepare at most 8 paladin spells from level 1 and 2 spells.  This shouldn’t be difficult because after the first 4 or 5 the options become lackluster.
> 
> I’d assume
> Bless
> Cure wounds
> Find steed
> Wrathful smite
> Command
> Maybe heroism.
> 
> I think that’s the important ones.
> 
> That frees up alotnof the divine soul spells




Thanks. Would you invest in Elemental Adept feat for fire? It would only comes to Quicken GFB (or normal GFB), Fireball and probably scorching ray, but it would allow to ignore one of most common resistance. However on the other hand- Quicken BB is already hardly resisted (thunder). Elemental Adept would combo well with Draconic Sorcerer, however +5 damage to fireball or to one of scorching rays seems to enough to justify it. Maybe if it was working like Agonizing Blast.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Thanks. Would you invest in Elemental Adept feat for fire? It would only comes to Quicken GFB (or normal GFB), Fireball and probably scorching ray, but it would allow to ignore one of most common resistance. However on the other hand- Quicken BB is already hardly resisted (thunder). Elemental Adept would combo well with Draconic Sorcerer, however +5 damage to fireball or to one of scorching rays seems to enough to justify it. Maybe if it was working like Agonizing Blast.




I wouldn’t take elemental adept. You have lots of non fire damage sources when you meet resistant to fire creatures.


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## FrogReaver

A level 5 sorcerer will know 6 spells. Assuming shield and absorb elements are 2 of them that leaves 4 spells. 

I would go with 
haste
Blindness/deafness
Shadow blade

One of
Slow
Spirit guardian
Thinderstep


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## Benny89

Do you guys think it's worth to take RES (CON) later if you already have War Caster and +5 Aura?

I wonder if I should start game with 16, 8, 15, 8, 8, 16 and take RES (CON) on 14 level (since I start with War Caster) instead of going 16, 10, 14, 8, 8, 16 and have even CON but better DEX save? WIS save will already be high with prof + Aura so I am not too afraid of one -1, but DEX is weakest Paladin point so I would prefer to have full +5 here. 

Since our DM loves magic items, there is high chance of getting sime +CON or CON magic item so I don't know if it's worth to invest in odd CON number at start and wait with it till level 14.


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> Do you guys think it's worth to take RES (CON) later if you already have War Caster and +5 Aura?
> 
> I wonder if I should start game with 16, 8, 15, 8, 8, 16 and take RES (CON) on 14 level (since I start with War Caster) instead of going 16, 10, 14, 8, 8, 16 and have even CON but better DEX save? WIS save will already be high with prof + Aura so I am not too afraid of one -1, but DEX is weakest Paladin point so I would prefer to have full +5 here.
> 
> Since our DM loves magic items, there is high chance of getting sime +CON or CON magic item so I don't know if it's worth to invest in odd CON number at start and wait with it till level 14.




By high levels you have some real encounter ending spells.  I'd highly consider it at level 14.  

Initiative and Dex saves are also useful.  You get the initiative bonus and dex save bonus for most of the game.  The odd con doesn't benefit you till level 14/15.  I don't think the odd con is worth it.


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## Benny89

If one goes 6/14 build sword n board- do you think Defense is better than Dueling. 

If you have already 20 AC (plate + shield), how big benefit is +1 AC.

If you have up to 3 (or 4 with Haste) attacks per turn, how big benefit is extra +6/+8 dmg per turn vs +1 AC?


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## FrogReaver

Benny89 said:


> If one goes 6/14 build sword n board- do you think Defense is better than Dueling.
> 
> If you have already 20 AC (plate + shield), how big benefit is +1 AC.
> 
> If you have up to 3 (or 4 with Haste) attacks per turn, how big benefit is extra +6/+8 dmg per turn vs +1 AC?




+1 AC will allow you to avoid being hit by an additional 1 out of every 20 attacks.  If you take 20 attacks in a day then that means +1 AC will cause 1 to miss on average.  If you take 40 then +1 AC will cause 2 to miss on average.  

Duelist Advantage on a 16 str paladin without any buffs (over a 20 round day)
Level 5 Daily Damage (Duelist):  +17% to +21%
Level 5 Nova Damage (Duelist):  +8% to +10%

As your sorcerer levels add higher level spell slots for smiting you will see a slight decrease in Nova Damage.
Adding extra attacks to both sides of the comparison really won't significantly change the percentages above.
As you go up higher levels I expect to see the Daily Damage go slightly lower as well due to more and more of your daily damage coming from spell slots and sorcery points

In short I like duelist because I think the above shows it's just at the point early game where it's better than +1 AC.  It stays that way through a good portion of the game.  I think there's a case for +1 AC instead of duelist in the late game.


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