# LOST Wednesday 11/16/05 {Spoilers for this ep and previous eps ONLY!}



## fett527 (Nov 16, 2005)

> Next Episode:
> Wednesday, Nov.16, 9/8c
> "The Other 48 Days"
> The harrowing first 48 days in the lives of the tail section survivors are revealed.




48 days in one extended episode.  Let's see how it goes!


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

So far itys pretty good.  Its not near as bad as they made it sound.  I like that at least they've killed 3 of the Others.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 17, 2005)

So for its one of my favorite episodes.  More stuff has happened in 30 minutes then a season and half.

 Was the Other in main casts camp named Nathan also?


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Well of course stuff has happened, they are covering 44 days in one episode  

The Others really don't make any sense with their actions.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Well of course stuff has happened, they are covering 44 days in one episode
> 
> The Others really don't make any sense with their actions.




Yeah I know but its fun to see things moving.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Hasn't she ever seen a Bond movie?  When you get the bad guy talking, you keep him talking..you don't attack him after little info gained and nothing useful.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 17, 2005)

she Shot Shanon


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Yep, I was hoping for a greater sense of paranioa since in earlier episodes we say the Tailers especially her very paraniod but I didn't get that from the episode.


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## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> she Shot Shanon



Seems that way, but I still had fun speculating!   And unless we actually see it happen there's still that doubt that maybe something else happened.  They still didn't actually show Ana and Shannon in the same frame, but they do make it look more like that's the truth of it.  She obviously has to die from a bullet wound else they wouldn't be blaming Ana for it.


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## dravot (Nov 17, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> So for its one of my favorite episodes.  More stuff has happened in 30 minutes then a season and half.
> 
> Was the Other in main casts camp named Nathan also?




That was Ethan.


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## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

I really liked the episode over all.  I like that they kicked the Other's asses at least a couple times.  I also liked the misdirection with Nathan (especially because of Ethan- names sounded similar).  

Thing that stuck out was the army knife since they made a big deal of it.  I think she said it was 20 years old wich puts it from the mid-80s.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Ya, she said it was 20 years ago.


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## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

Also, the trunk from the Dharma bunker- glass eye, bible and radio.

And I hope everyone realized Bernard was talking to Boone.


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## Shag (Nov 17, 2005)

Before she killed him though, he did say some interesting things.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> And I hope everyone realized Bernard was talking to Boone.




At first I thought that, but the conversation didn't sound right.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Shag said:
			
		

> Before she killed him though, he did say some interesting things.




He said they took the "good" ones or something like that and the kids were now better off.  Not  what I consider that interesting or insightful


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## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> He said they took the "good" ones or something like that and the kids were now better off.  Not  what I consider that interesting or insightful



I'd go along with good= fits in with the utopian society, as in from the orientation film.


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## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> At first I thought that, but the conversation didn't sound right.



A lot of people thought that the response Boone got was "there were no survivors of flight 815" but it was Bernard saying "we're the survivors of flight 815".


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> I'd go along with good= fits in with the utopian society, as in from the orientation film.




perhaps, but there is just too much we don't know..as usual


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> A lot of people thought that the response Boone got was "there were no survivors of flight 815" but it was Bernard saying "we're the survivors of flight 815".




has that been confirmed?  I don't have the DVDs but I imagine if someone has them and puts on the closed caption it could answer that.


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## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> perhaps, but there is just too much we don't know..as usual



Which is why I watch.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> Which is why I watch.




I'm not argueing that...I can speculate to, but spuculation at this point with still so many missing pieces I don't find any better then blind guessing.    

So, we go on with speculation: But if it is a utopian society, and the "good" people they felt would be best for it then:

1) where the strong people taken the first night just killed then?
2) why not watch them a little longer, a couple weeks is not enough to know if someone is going to fit in ones societ especially a utopian one.  Now if they want the weak willed people that they can control like the children, that makes more sense.  I just think watching people for a few weeks after a huge tragic even is not going to reveal the true person.

Why kill Nathan?  Sure to disguise that he was the imposter but he could easily have just taken him away.  The others obviously don't want to kill them all, other they should easily be able to do that they have the numbers and he could easily have lead them back to ambush the survivors.  

Also, in the episode a few back we seen a bunch (half dozen, dozen) Others walking through the forest.  Now if they have a utopian society why do they need to be walking around the forest like that.  Do they control more then one bunker and need to move from one to another?


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## Pants (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Why kill Nathan?  Sure to disguise that he was the imposter but he could easily have just taken him away.



He wasn't a good person, quote Goodwin. 



> Also, in the episode a few back we seen a bunch (half dozen, dozen) Others walking through the forest.



They probably need to eat and hunt. 
Or maybe they like creepy, silent walks in the jungle 



> Now if they have a utopian society why do they need to be walking around the forest like that.  Do they control more then one bunker and need to move from one to another?



I'm not sure I buy the whole utopian society thing.
Seems to me that the Others are brainwashing their captives into whatever they believe in, which, at this point, I have no clue as to what it is.


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## Banshee16 (Nov 17, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> That was Ethan.




I fell for the red herring....both Ethan and the guy Anna stuck in the prison claimed they were from Canada.  I figured maybe it was a pattern or something.

Apparently not though.

Interesting that at the end, Goodwin commented that the other fellow wasn't a good man, hence he wasn't on the list.

Was Anna on the list?  Nobody tried grabbing her until she interfered.  Mr. Echo though, was apparently on the list..

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Nov 17, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> Also, the trunk from the Dharma bunker- glass eye, bible and radio.
> 
> And I hope everyone realized Bernard was talking to Boone.




Yeah, I got that.  That dispels the whole theory that when Boone was on the radio, the guy on the other end was saying there were no survivors.  Now we know what was really said..

Banshee


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> He wasn't a good person, quote Goodwin.




So, why aren't they killing the rest of them?  And how does Goodwin know this?



> They probably need to eat and hunt.
> Or maybe they like creepy, silent walks in the jungle




WEll, i wouldn't call it creepy..but why take kids on a hunting trip?  



> I'm not sure I buy the whole utopian society thing.
> Seems to me that the Others are brainwashing their captives into whatever they believe in, which, at this point, I have no clue as to what it is.




What makes yuou think brainwashing?


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## David Howery (Nov 17, 2005)

man... the tailies had it rough over those 40+ days.. way worse than the others.  I kinda picked out Goodwin as an Other right at the start though, for the same reason Anna did... the guy came running out the jungle, obviously fresh as a daisy, when everyone else was staggering around half dead...


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## Banshee16 (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> has that been confirmed?  I don't have the DVDs but I imagine if someone has them and puts on the closed caption it could answer that.




I just listed to that part.  There's a lot of background noise from the plane's hull groaning as it shifted, as well as static......but I think it did say "we're the survivors of Flight 815".....it could have been "there were no survivors", but the more I listen, I don't think so.  There weren't enough syllables in the latter....when you listen to the DVD, the voice on the other end makes a very short statement that's covered up by the groaning of the plane.  You hear "we" and then "the survivors of Flight 815", with whatever happens in between being obscured.

It wasn't Bernard's voice though.  They wouldn't have cast the actor yet.

Banshee


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## Banshee16 (Nov 17, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> man... the tailies had it rough over those 40+ days.. way worse than the others.  I kinda picked out Goodwin as an Other right at the start though, for the same reason Anna did... the guy came running out the jungle, obviously fresh as a daisy, when everyone else was staggering around half dead...




I was thinking....what if Goodwin was making a point about them not taking the people from the tail end who weren't good?

What if they're not actively trying to kidnap Jack, Kate et al. because the survivors from the front-end aren't good?  Look at them....it's like they've all got dirty secrets....murderers, thieves, questionable practices, interrogators, etc.  The only survivor they tried to kidnap was Claire's baby, which goes back to the whole innocent thing.

As to Goodwin, didn't he have shoes and tags on his clothes though?  Obviously, he could have switched them, but.....at this point it's moot, because he's been revealed to be an Other, but...

Banshee


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> What if they're not actively trying to kidnap Jack, Kate et al. because the survivors from the front-end aren't good?  Look at them....it's like they've all got dirty secrets....murderers, thieves, questionable practices, interrogators, etc.  The only survivor they tried to kidnap was Claire's baby, which goes back to the whole innocent thing.




Ya, but who would the Others know that?  And obviously the tailers were a mix of good and bad, it would make sense for the front plane people to also be a mix.  So, shouldn't some of them have been taken?


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## WayneLigon (Nov 17, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> man... the tailies had it rough over those 40+ days.. way worse than the others.  I kinda picked out Goodwin as an Other right at the start though, for the same reason Anna did... the guy came running out the jungle, obviously fresh as a daisy, when everyone else was staggering around half dead...




I figured he was like Jack; Jack woke up in the jungle, having been thrown there. I think she was just trying to see if he'd deny it. 

I think the whole 'good' thing refers to the children. Or something we don't know about yet. But then, the Others are also at least a little nuts, it seems. I'd take anything they say with a grain of salt.


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## Fast Learner (Nov 17, 2005)

The closed captioning was checked way back when that ep aired, and it was "_we're_ the survivors of flight 815," just like Bernard said.

Seems to me that if Bernard got thrown that far into the jungle, in a tree no less, there's no reason that Goodwin couldn't have been. Bernard certainly wasn't wet. Weak writing, that.

"Good" could easily be something that the Others judge with some psychic ability or something, for all we know. Additional observation may not have mattered at all.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 17, 2005)

Up until now, I'd assumed that Ethan had snuck into the Fuselagers camp sometime during the first day or two, when things were still somewhat chaotic.  In a group that large it would be easy to plant someone in and have the rest be none the wiser.  But after seeing tonight's episode, it sure looks like Goodwin (at least) was inserted almost instantly - didn't Ana say they'd only been there 20 minutes or so before he came running out of the jungle?  Judging by his appearance in comparison to what we saw of the Others, who dress in rags, Goodwin was wearing a nice "jet passenger" costume, so one could assume he wasn't just wandering by the beach when the tail crashed there.

So there's two possible conclusions we could infer here.  

1) The Others are ready to plant an infiltrator on literally a moment's notice, or

2) the Others _knew the plane was going to crash_.  

Either way, *creepy*.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 17, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I was thinking....what if Goodwin was making a point about them not taking the people from the tail end who weren't good?
> 
> What if they're not actively trying to kidnap Jack, Kate et al. because the survivors from the front-end aren't good? Look at them....it's like they've all got dirty secrets....murderers, thieves, questionable practices, interrogators, etc. The only survivor they tried to kidnap was Claire's baby, which goes back to the whole innocent thing.




Well, we don't really know what he meant by "good" though.  He could have been talking about strong moral fiber, or he could have meant "viable".  As in: a test subject.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 17, 2005)

Good, as good subjects, good slaves, good followers...those not taken seemed to be more likely to question/fight the status quo.  Others don't seem to concerned about loosing members, makes you wonder about their numbers, but then they have a plan they stick to; send in a mole, find the "good" then weed them out, makes you wonder how long they have used that trick.  

Still not sure if Anna shot Shannon, while everything looks that way, I will wait until next week.  

Overall I was pleased, got you to know the characters, tell their side and get everyone up to speed.


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## Maniac (Nov 17, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Seems to me that if Bernard got thrown that far into the jungle, in a tree no less, there's no reason that Goodwin couldn't have been. Bernard certainly wasn't wet. Weak writing, that.




But when Analucia asked how he heard Bernard Goodwin said he could hear him from the beach.  That implied he was on the beach with the rest of the tail people and would have had to come from the ocean.

M.


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## sabres (Nov 17, 2005)

There is a interview with exec producers Lindelof and Cuse about Lost on TV guide.com (link below). Doesn't have too much answers, but it does answer whether or not Shannon was shot. Of course, you can read more into it if you want.

http://tvguide.com/news/askausiello


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## Shallown (Nov 17, 2005)

Was it my imagination or did the child that walked past in the forest when sun and echo were hiding carrying the same teddy bear as the boy from the tail crash have. He set it down when echo was trying to get him away from his sister I think.

later


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 17, 2005)

sabres said:
			
		

> There is a interview with exec producers Lindelof and Cuse about Lost on TV guide.com (link below). Doesn't have too much answers, but it does answer whether or not Shannon was shot. Of course, you can read more into it if you want.
> 
> http://tvguide.com/news/askausiello




Some interesting comments there and a lot that will start a lot of talking at the water-cooler.  The one that I think everyone will be wonder about is the island romances: I got to say I think Hugo gets some love!


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 17, 2005)

Shallown said:
			
		

> Was it my imagination or did the child that walked past in the forest when sun and echo were hiding carrying the same teddy bear as the boy from the tail crash have. He set it down when echo was trying to get him away from his sister I think.
> 
> later



Meaning, it may be the same kid and already conformed to way of life of the others.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 17, 2005)

Shallown said:
			
		

> Was it my imagination or did the child that walked past in the forest when sun and echo were hiding carrying the same teddy bear as the boy from the tail crash have. He set it down when echo was trying to get him away from his sister I think.
> 
> later



I think it was the same teddy bear. Was it being carried by the little kid, I don't know. IIRC the legs of the person dragging the bear, looked to belong to someone older.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 17, 2005)

My take on "Nathan was not good" is from the side of darwinism, Survival of the fittest. They take they strongest people as well as the youngest because they can condition them. because they want to survive on the island. Let the weak fend for themselves and die off, and the strong survive.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 17, 2005)

Interesting episode.  Still don't like Anna Lucia and the others as much as the main cast, and I hope they don't "OC".  That is over-character.   I'm already having Kate withdrawls!!!  I hope  they don't clutter the cast up too much.


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## EricNoah (Nov 17, 2005)

Extended ... episode....  guess that means my VCR cut off the end.  How "extended" was it?


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 17, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Extended ... episode....  guess that means my VCR cut off the end.  How "extended" was it?



Four minutes - which was just a repeat of last week's show as flash, ending up with Shannon.  I just feel that they are selling ad space and letting the show run over.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 17, 2005)

They had a quick recap of the entire last episode with them leading Sawyer and crew back towards the main cast.  Then they showed the end scene with Sayed holding a dead Shannon.  It was made pretty clear that Anna shot Shannon.


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## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

Interesting episode for sure.  I sat down to watch it just a minute or so after it started so I'm not sure about this, but did I see "smoke monsters" swarming over the wreckage of the crashed tail section?  If so then it would support the possibility that the Others might have caused the crash in the first place or at least have been aware that it was happening so they could insert their infiltrators.

One thing about Goodwin killing Nathan:  It seems like a strategic error to have killed him rather than him being tortured by QBotU.  If she cuts off his finger and he sticks to his story, I think that her reaction (and certainly that of the rest of the Tail Section) would be more akin to "My God!  What has my paranoia driven me to?!" rather than "Well I guess it must be somebody else."  But this is probably my innate sense of tactics overiding what makes for a better story.

(For the record, I bought into the Nathan=Other red herring because of the Canada thing too.)


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## Steverooo (Nov 17, 2005)

*Prediction:*

The killing aint over...  In earlier episodes, Libby tells Michael that there _were_ 23 of them...  We see nine taken, this episode (maybe only eight, since Eku wasn't).  That leaves too many (14 or 15).  When the "Tailies" are going towards Jack & Co., there were only five or so left...  So expect the rest of the story next week...


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## David Howery (Nov 17, 2005)

Actually, next week is supposed to be Anna-lucia's backstory.
When it comes to the original cast and people being good and everyone's dirty secrets... hey, Hugo is the best of the bunch.. no 'dirty' secrets... just the one about him being a multi-millionaire, which is hardly 'dirty'... he seems to be the nicest one on the island... well, him and Claire, who doesn't have any 'dirty' secrets either... of course, if the Others did want to take Hurley away, it'd take 4 or 5 of them to drag him off...


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## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 17, 2005)

I heard that Ana is going to go a murder spree and totally wack Hugo, Charlie, Claire, Kate, Crothian, Sawyer, Michael, Howery, Walt, Jin, Sun, Desmond, Bernard and Vincent before dying in a fire Locke acciently sets with a pair of eye glasses. Leaving only Jack...


...to be eaten by the monster.


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## David Howery (Nov 17, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I heard that Ana is going to go a murder spree and totally wack Hugo, Charlie, Claire, Kate, Crothian, Sawyer, Michael, _Howery_,  Walt, Jin, Sun, Desmond, Bernard and Vincent before dying in a fire Locke acciently sets with a pair of eye glasses. Leaving only Jack...
> 
> 
> ...to be eaten by the monster.



what'd I do?!


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## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 17, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> of course, if the Others did want to take Hurley away, it'd take 4 or 5 of them to drag him off...




(A team Leader among the Others, "Alright, we're mysterous and possibly evil, but remember guys, lift with your knees. Alright, on three, one, two, three..")


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 17, 2005)

Another question is why the others have left the one group alone as long as it has, was this because they found out about Ethan or becuase the group was 'protected' by its location; the hatch/the button/the monster or something else.


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## DonTadow (Nov 17, 2005)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> Extended ... episode....  guess that means my VCR cut off the end.  How "extended" was it?



Extended my foot.  It was 4 minutes over and they showed an extended commercial for invasion.  I"m very upset with ABC for pulling that little bait and switch.  In TV guide it said it would be one and a half to two hours.


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## Arnwyn (Nov 17, 2005)

Great episode. Neat how the Tailies looked like they crashed right beside the Others' territory. Also very cool how we find out that Boone was actually talking to Bernard! I also liked how we get to see a (little) bit more into how the Others seem to work - they're not quite insane murderers (as I suspected), since they are actually 'taking' the people (likely to their territory, and I speculate to join their way of life). Getting to see an extended conversation with an Other (Goodwin) was one of the best parts of that episode.



			
				Shallown said:
			
		

> Was it my imagination or did the child that walked past in the forest when sun and echo were hiding carrying the same teddy bear as the boy from the tail crash have. He set it down when echo was trying to get him away from his sister I think.



Yep, looked like the same bear to me.



			
				Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I just feel that they are selling ad space and letting the show run over.



I suspect that to be the case. In Canada, it ran in the normal 1 hour time slot.



			
				Steverooo said:
			
		

> The killing aint over... In earlier episodes, Libby tells Michael that there were 23 of them... We see nine taken, this episode (maybe only eight, since Eku wasn't). That leaves too many (14 or 15). When the "Tailies" are going towards Jack & Co., there were only five or so left... So expect the rest of the story next week...



We see _much_ more than 9 taken - the 9 was in _just one night_. The number of people being taken seemed to conform with Ana Lucia's description of the events in the previous episode.


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## Taelorn76 (Nov 17, 2005)

Maybe it's just me, but something about the locations of where certain parts of the plane crashed don't add up to me. 

We had the mid section of the plane crash into the island in a water to land direction, with the cockpit landing further in land. Which makes sense to me. My problem is that the tail section fell off first, yet it landed on the opposite side of the island, what appears to be ahead of the fuselage and cockpit.

-----> Fuselage ---->Cockpit------------------------------<----Tail
Ocean----->Beach----->Island/Jungle------>Beach---->Ocean.

Hope that kind of makes sense. 
The only other explanation I can think of is that the tail section landed on the same side of the Island as the fuselage, but just way further up or down the beach. If Sayid had kept walking along the beach instaed of following that cable he might have come across their crash site.


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## Dagger75 (Nov 17, 2005)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Hope that kind of makes sense.
> The only other explanation I can think of is that the tail section landed on the same side of the Island as the fuselage, but just way further up or down the beach. If Sayid had kept walking along the beach instaed of following that cable he might have come across their crash site.




 Its an island of course he would ran into it if he kept walking.  I don't think it means anything where the parts landed.  From that high up things of different sizes and weight and shap could be blown over the entire island.  We also have no idea if the plane was flying over the island, toward the island, away from the island or paralel to the island.


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## fett527 (Nov 17, 2005)

Not earth shattering or anything, but I like the theory that the crate in the Arrow Dharma bunker was from the Nigerian's plane.  Glass eye and a bible and the occupants of the plane were dressed as priests and one had an eye-patch.  Kinda neat if true.


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## shaylon (Nov 17, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I heard that Ana is going to go a murder spree and totally wack Hugo, Charlie, Claire, Kate, Crothian, Sawyer, Michael, Howery, Walt, Jin, Sun, Desmond, Bernard and Vincent before dying in a fire Locke acciently sets with a pair of eye glasses. Leaving only Jack...
> 
> 
> ...to be eaten by the monster.




Oh man, not Crothian and Howery!  That show will totally suck without the two of those guys.  Crothian is the R2-D2 and Howery is the C3PO of that show! The castaways will be lost at sea without those guys!   

Well, overall I didn't enjoy that episode much at all.  There is so much buildup and fear of the others in the previous episodes (when they are hiding in fear and see the kid's walk by) and then we just see that the others drag 9 of them off and the "tailies" killed 4 of their number.  These people are supposed to be so feared?  They seem like a band of cultists more than a ruthless insane group of killers like they were made out to be.

I don't know, there was a little bit of information given but not enough, and the commercials are really making the show unwatchable.  That invasion commercial was about 25 minutes long!

We'll see how this season plays out but I think that the lack of information will be wearing many more people out.  I think it is going to severely hurt the show.

-Shay


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## Mazlo (Nov 17, 2005)

They start with 23. 

They lose 2 the first night (the Others tried to take 3 but Eku used a big rock).

They lose 1 when the man with the infected leg dies.  Libby states "He'll be the sixth one of us to go." 

So lets assume they lost 5 other people due to injuries and infection.

They lose 9 the next time the Others come. 

They lose 1 when Goodwin offs guy in hole from Canada who takes two hours to pee. 

They lose 1 when Analucia impales Goodwin.

23 - 2 = 21 - 1 = 20 - 5 = 15 - 9 = 6 - 1 = 5 - 1 = 4

The tail section survivors are Analucia, Eku, Libby, Cindy, Bernard.  That's 5.  So maybe Libby wasn't counting Goodwin although it doesn't seem like Ana Lucia told the other members of her group exactly what was going on.  

Also interesting is the previews they showed for the next episode - they seemed to imply that Analucia was going to kill Sayid because she's afraid he's after her because she killed someone he loved.  It'd be a shame if she actually did kill Sayid because I think he's an interesting character and offers some important skills none of the other survivors have.   On the other hand, it would be interesting to see how the main group of survivors would handle her then.  If Analucia does kill Sayid she will be downright criminal.  The main group of survivors hasn't had to handle any criminals really - Charlie just shot Ethan and they didn't really have to deal with him then.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> They seem like a band of cultists more than a ruthless insane group of killers like they were made out to be.




So, could the signs in the bunkers really be elder signs??


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> So, could the signs in the bunkers really be elder signs??



Could be!


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## KaosDevice (Nov 17, 2005)

Wow, I really liked this episode. Eko is the man. This theory somewhat re-enforce my theory (at least I think it does) that the Others are former participants in a Dharma Initiative experiment. More then likely one involving the Arrow symbol bunker. (something involving combat, stealth etc. possibly military) Rewatch it and look at the Mole's expression when they find the door to the bunker. He looks definately unhappy about it. I agree with the theorists here who feel that the Tailies landed closer to the Other's camp which caused them to be more frelled with but I think the min reason the core group of ostaways wasn't messed with as much is that there were just flat out more of them.  The central group was over twice as many as the Tailies. The Others may have been intimidated. As we've seen, sure they are stealthy and creepy but they CAN be killed and have been on several occasions.


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## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

It's also interesting to note that the Others just relied on their spy, they weren't actively watching the tailies.  I would have expected them to be keeping a closer yer onj things.


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## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

Mazlo said:
			
		

> Also interesting is the previews they showed for the next episode - they seemed to imply that Analucia was going to kill Sayid because she's afraid he's after her because she killed someone he loved.  It'd be a shame if she actually did kill Sayid because I think he's an interesting character and offers some important skills none of the other survivors have.




There is a scene they show with Sayid appearing to be seated and tied to a tree.  Then they show Analucia moving toward him with something like a machete and chopping downward.

I bet she's cutting him loose.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> I bet she's cutting him loose.




I hope not. I hope she kills him. they need a higher body count this year. Much higher. Kill five or six of the main characters.


----------



## Rel (Nov 17, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I hope not. I hope she kills him. they need a higher body count this year. Much higher. Kill five or six of the main characters.




You are grumpy, aren't you?


----------



## Crothian (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> You are grumpy, aren't you?




well, the Celts could be a bloody people as well....


----------



## shaylon (Nov 17, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> So, could the signs in the bunkers really be elder signs??




You see that is where everything is so confusing to me.  I doubt it, I think the symbols are from the different initiatives that Dharma hoped to accomplish on the island.  Or at least that is what I am led to think.  Who the hell knows?

I like the theory that the Nigerian smugglers' stuff was in the bunker but does that mean that you think the smuggler's lived on the island for a time or that their plane was raided when it crash landed?

-Shay


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 17, 2005)

Rel said:
			
		

> You are grumpy, aren't you?




Pretty much all the time. 

I mean it. Ideally, Ana kills Sayid to protect herself. The others kill Claire. Baby Turnip Head Aaron dies with no one to feed it. Charlie, deeply depressed, kills himself via a herion O.D. And Locke gets snuffed by his precious monster. One per episode, drawn out over five weeks.

It's probably a good thing I am not a writer for the show...


----------



## KaosDevice (Nov 17, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> You see that is where everything is so confusing to me.  I doubt it, I think the symbols are from the different initiatives that Dharma hoped to accomplish on the island.  Or at least that is what I am led to think.  Who the hell knows?




I think there are like six different initiatives (IIRC) The swan logo in the button bunker, the arrow in the box bunker and the symbol on the shark, whatever that was. Trying to figure out what the six initiatives are is one of my favorite mysteries on the island.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 17, 2005)

Have any of you read the TV guide article on Lost?  Apparently the producers talk about how people are reading too much into every little possible detail and it will lead to dissapointment due to it being impossible to live up to the expectations people are getting since not everything will be explained.  I haven't read it but it was a topic on a different forum and I was curious what everone thought of that idea.  I know people in here obsesss over a lot of small stuff.  Do you think that will happen?


----------



## David Howery (Nov 17, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> Oh man, not Crothian and Howery!  That show will totally suck without the two of those guys.  Crothian is the R2-D2 and Howery is the C3PO of that show! The castaways will be lost at sea without those guys!
> -Shay



she's not getting me without a fight!  If she wants to kill me, she's going to have to get herself out of Hawaii and over here to Wyoming, where she'll freeze her pretty tukhas off.  Besides, I'm armed!  I have...
_**looks desperately around the room**_
..a pocketknife!  and a big heavy book! And she has...

a gun.  Dang.

_**drops to knees**_
Please don't kill me Michelle.  I'm just a middle aged overweight ex-D&D geek.  I'm not worth it.  Spare me and I won't bother you or call you and I'll stop looking for nude pictures of you on the Internet...

oops, probably shouldn't have said that last one...


----------



## KaosDevice (Nov 17, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Have any of you read the TV guide article on Lost?






Ironically enough I just got done reading it. Here is the link:
http://www.tvguide.com/News/AskAusiello/

WARNING!!!! It is very spoilery.


----------



## ThirdWizard (Nov 17, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Another question is why the others have left the one group alone as long as it has, was this because they found out about Ethan or becuase the group was 'protected' by its location; the hatch/the button/the monster or something else.




I think one of the big reasons that the central section survivors haven't been touched as much as the tail is because they got Ethan quickly. Goodwin was theoretically supplying the Others with the lists of people to take, for whatever purposes, based on whatever criteria he was getting out of them. So, he'd observe someone, give them a check or an x on their name, and move on. Then the Others would come and take them. They only wanted certain ones, after all.

Since Ethan was discovered and killed, the Others wouldn't have an informant saying which ones to take and which ones weren't useful. So, they concentrated their efforts on the tail section instead, where they still had an informant. The moles might have even been conditioning them, or something, to be taken. Perhaps everyone had potential to be "good" and it was his job to make them so.

Of course, this doesn't explain why they couldn't just take them randomly, determine for themselves, and toss the ones that were bad. My theory on that is... um... Look a distraction! *runs away*


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 18, 2005)

Anyone notice what Eku was carving into his stick? Was it numbers (like the number of men he'd killed?) or something else?


----------



## nharwell (Nov 18, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Of course, this doesn't explain why they couldn't just take them randomly, determine for themselves, and toss the ones that were bad. My theory on that is... um... Look a distraction! *runs away*




Possible reasons that the Others left the primary group alone (aside from the discovery & death of Ethan):

- they're a larger group than the "tail section" survivors
- they are armed (Locke's knives, 4 guns)
- they have more "survivalist-types" (Locke & Kate's hunting & tracking, Sayid's military background, etc.)
- they are better organized (grouped quickly under Jack's leadership, whereas the "tail" group was split between Anna & Nathan)
- they have more/better supplies from the plane


----------



## Zulithe (Nov 18, 2005)

Cthulhudrew: Days they had been on the island?


----------



## Tiberius (Nov 18, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Anyone notice what Eku was carving into his stick? Was it numbers (like the number of men he'd killed?) or something else?




I suspect he was keeping time on the stick, that he may have an accurate count of when 40 days had passed.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 18, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Have any of you read the TV guide article on Lost?  Apparently the producers talk about how people are reading too much into every little possible detail and it will lead to dissapointment due to it being impossible to live up to the expectations people are getting since not everything will be explained.  I haven't read it but it was a topic on a different forum and I was curious what everone thought of that idea.  I know people in here obsesss over a lot of small stuff.  Do you think that will happen?




Ya, that's why I usually have a negative reaction to the show since I know it will not live up to expectations they set.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 18, 2005)

nharwell said:
			
		

> Possible reasons that the Others left the primary group alone (aside from the discovery & death of Ethan):
> 
> - they're a larger group than the "tail section" survivors
> - they are armed (Locke's knives, 4 guns)
> ...




But with Ethan dead the Others really have no way of knowing this


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Nov 18, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Ya, that's why I usually have a negative reaction to the show since I know it will not live up to expectations they set.




what expectations do they set in your opinion?


----------



## Crothian (Nov 18, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> what expectations do they set in your opinion?




The show shows us lots of mystery and in the article they say that they aren't going to explain them all, so the expecations of knowing what is going on is the big one.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 18, 2005)

Zulithe said:
			
		

> Cthulhudrew: Days they had been on the island?






			
				Tiberius said:
			
		

> I suspect he was keeping time on the stick, that he may have an accurate count of when 40 days had passed.




D'oh! Of course- now that I think of it, that was my initial thought when viewing the show last night, but somehow started to think it might be something else.


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 18, 2005)

As far as the total number of tailaways goes, the numbers work out perfectly, we don't have to guess at some number dying or anything.

23 survivors. 3 are taken in the first round (Eku would have been the 4th... they describe the 3), leaving 20. 4 die (Libby says the broken leg guy would be the "fourth to go") leaving 16. 9 are taken in the second round, leaving 7. Nathan and Goodwin are killed, leaving 5. Which is how many are left when we first encounter them.

I've rewatched the tail crash several times, and there are no noticeable "shadows." That is, there are some mystery dark things along with other debris, but they all shoot straight into the water, no swooping like above the engine in the first  season.


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 18, 2005)

Also, just rewatching, here's my theory:

1. The stuff in the box in the bunker is from one of the Nigerian priests from the plane crash... the skeleton with the eyepatch seems likely (mentioned here).

2. Eku is a religious man, hence 40 days of penance after killing the two Others.

3. Eku knows that priest (or "priest"). He opens the front cover of the Bible, not to some passage, and looks thoughtfully at the place where it would be personalized.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 18, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> 1. The stuff in the box in the bunker is from one of the Nigerian priests from the plane crash... the skeleton with the eyepatch seems likely (mentioned here).




Those weren't Nigerian priests in the plane- they were drug runners. I believe their skeletons were in the plane as well, though I don't recall for certain.

In any case, I think the stuff in the bunker is from the Dharma people- specifically the eye. The Dharma people seem to have some problems with their limbs/organs (note the weirdness of the trainer's arm in the film; he never moves it, and it seems to be artificial.)


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 18, 2005)

I see were there are making LOST for cell phones: starting next year, 10 minutes shows!

http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,17795,00.html

Okay, this is just going overboard, the book and now this...


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 18, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> Those weren't Nigerian priests in the plane- they were drug runners.



That's the assumption that everyone is making, including Locke. You somehow know that the guys in that plane knew there was something in the statues, or did you just let Locke's assumption make that leap for you?



> I believe their skeletons were in the plane as well, though I don't recall for certain.



Correct. Doesn't mean some of their stuff wasn't removed from the plane.



> In any case, I think the stuff in the bunker is from the Dharma people- specifically the eye. The Dharma people seem to have some problems with their limbs/organs (note the weirdness of the trainer's arm in the film; he never moves it, and it seems to be artificial.)



One guy not moving his arm doesn't signify _anything_ about the Dharma people that I can tell. Interesting theory, I'll grant you, but I certainly don't give it creedance _over_ my theory... just alongside.

Besides the superficial reason (Eku seems to be an African), the way the lostaways all have connections to each other and to the island (like the numbers) sure makes it likely to me that the tailaways have the same connections.


----------



## Arnwyn (Nov 18, 2005)

ThirdWizard said:
			
		

> Of course, this doesn't explain why they couldn't just take them randomly, determine for themselves, and toss the ones that were bad. My theory on that is... um... Look a distraction! *runs away*



My theory is that geographical distance is what's keeping them (relatively) at bay.

From what has been said in previous episodes (the Dark Territory, the things that Rousseau has said, what Eko has mentioned), there definitely seems to be an actual "territory" belonging to the Others, and that it looks to be quite some distance from the mid-sectioners' camp.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 18, 2005)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> My theory is that geographical distance is what's keeping them (relatively) at bay.
> 
> From what has been said in previous episodes (the Dark Territory, the things that Rousseau has said, what Eko has mentioned), there definitely seems to be an actual "territory" belonging to the Others, and that it looks to be quite some distance from the mid-sectioners' camp.



At what point does the voice start, Shannon did not seem all that far...what we need is a map, a detailed map, which I am surprised was not in the Desmond bunker, mmmmm, but then maybe it just has not been found.


----------



## David Howery (Nov 18, 2005)

what I keep wondering is just how damn big is this island, and how did anyone keep it hidden from the world for so long.  There aren't any undiscovered Pacific islands anymore, especially ones as big as this one.  And why aren't there any natives on it?  The only islands that are uninhabited are those that are too small to support agriculture.... and with modern shipping and air, even those are getting to have people on them....


----------



## ThirdWizard (Nov 18, 2005)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> In any case, I think the stuff in the bunker is from the Dharma people- specifically the eye. The Dharma people seem to have some problems with their limbs/organs (note the weirdness of the trainer's arm in the film; he never moves it, and it seems to be artificial.)




Human chop shops! They need "good" arms, legs, hearts, livers, etc. It all makes sense now.


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 18, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> what I keep wondering is just how damn big is this island, and how did anyone keep it hidden from the world for so long.  There aren't any undiscovered Pacific islands anymore, especially ones as big as this one.  And why aren't there any natives on it?  The only islands that are uninhabited are those that are too small to support agriculture.... and with modern shipping and air, even those are getting to have people on them....



Who says no one knows about it.


----------



## Arnwyn (Nov 18, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> At what point does the voice start, Shannon did not seem all that far...



I agree - the voices definitely seem to be 'happening' a lot closer to the camp than in the past. First, it was way out in the boonies in Rousseau's area, then closer all the time...


----------



## Jib (Nov 18, 2005)

What does "Good" mean?  The Others take the good people.  It might not mean morally good.

Is Eko from Africa or the West Indies?  Could he be related to the plane that crashed with te drug runners?


----------



## Rel (Nov 18, 2005)

Jib said:
			
		

> What does "Good" mean?  The Others take the good people.  It might not mean morally good.




"Good" meaning "tasty" or "yummy".  As in "This is GOOD barbecue, isn't it?!"


----------



## John Crichton (Nov 18, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> ..a pocketknife!  and a big heavy book! And she has...
> 
> a gun.  Dang.



Isn't it out of bullets?  Of course, she could pistol whip you into submission.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Nov 18, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Of course, she could pistol whip you into submission.




Michelle Rodriguez trying to beat me up....

That's, uh, a turn on...

Good thing they are keeping track of the bullets. I wondering when they would run out and resort to pointy sticks.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 18, 2005)

Jib said:
			
		

> What does "Good" mean?  The Others take the good people.  It might not mean morally good.
> 
> Is Eko from Africa or the West Indies?  Could he be related to the plane that crashed with te drug runners?



I think he meant good specimens for the Dharma Initiative. Nathan was not good because he was not submissive, he was strong willed. Same thing with Anna. They thought Eku was the passive type until he killed two of them. The chirldren were taken because they can be molded to the Others way of life.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 18, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> That's the assumption that everyone is making, including Locke. You somehow know that the guys in that plane knew there was something in the statues, or did you just let Locke's assumption make that leap for you?




I'll grant that I don't know beyond all possible doubt that they weren't drug runners, not being a writer on the show, but, you know- Occam's Razor and all that.

Seems strange for genuine priests to be smuggling heroin in statues of the Virgin Mary, but YMMV.


----------



## Fast Learner (Nov 19, 2005)

Indeed. Note where I indicated that they might not have known. If they had drugs in a bag, then Occam's surely says they're drug runners. If it's hidden in something, our friend with the razor isn't nearly so certain.

See hundreds of cases of unknowing people returning from visits to Mexico with drugs inside souvenirs they bought, and plenty of other uninformed mule stories.

Again, I don't get why you're so certain they knew that there was anything inside the statues.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Nov 19, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Again, I don't get why you're so certain they knew that there was anything inside the statues.




Just seems most logical to me, even without Locke's suspicions of same. Plus, if priests were unknowingly running drugs via statues of the Virgin Mary, how would said statues get to the drug dealers where they were going? I'm not all that familiar with priestly ritual/observances, to be sure, but it seems that religious icons of that nature would go to the church or flock, and not wholesale to an intermediary.

In any case, I sort of doubt we'll ever actually learn anything more about the backstory of the drug runners/priest mules, since the primary goal of that whole episode (aside from killing Boone and presenting a mystery about radio contact that was just answered), seems to have been to get drugs back into the hands of Charlie, so that he could have some inner turmoil and conflict with Locke.


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 19, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Extended my foot.  It was 4 minutes over and they showed an extended commercial for invasion.  I"m very upset with ABC for pulling that little bait and switch.  In TV guide it said it would be one and a half to two hours.




Yeah, because had you known ahead of time ABC was going to mislead you about the "extended "episode", there is no way you would have watched, right?


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 19, 2005)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> I think there are like six different initiatives (IIRC) The swan logo in the button bunker, the arrow in the box bunker and the symbol on the shark, whatever that was. Trying to figure out what the six initiatives are is one of my favorite mysteries on the island.




errr, symbol on the shark?  You mean when Michael and Sawyer were on the raft?  I don't remember seeing a symbol on the shark.  Any pics of this anywhere on the net?


----------



## DonTadow (Nov 19, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Yeah, because had you known ahead of time ABC was going to mislead you about the "extended "episode", there is no way you would have watched, right?



hahaha, I said I was angry but that doesnt kick my Lost habit.  It was just a horrible bait and switch.  

My punishment to them ... I"m not watching Invasion or any of their other shows.  That should be sufficient.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 19, 2005)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> hahaha, I said I was angry but that doesnt kick my Lost habit.  It was just a horrible bait and switch.




They do that a lot with Lost, its very annoying


----------



## Tarrasque Wrangler (Nov 19, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> errr, symbol on the shark?  You mean when Michael and Sawyer were on the raft?  I don't remember seeing a symbol on the shark.  Any pics of this anywhere on the net?




This was one somebody here posted on the thread for the Adrift episode.  Not the best pic, but it was definitely there.  Looked real obvious on my hi-def TV.

http://lost.cubit.net/pics/lostShark.jpg


----------



## Pants (Nov 19, 2005)

Crothian said:
			
		

> They do that a lot with Lost, its very annoying



Invasion is even worse.


----------



## Crothian (Nov 19, 2005)

Pants said:
			
		

> Invasion is even worse.




thankjfully, I didn't like that show so don't watch it


----------



## RigaMortus2 (Nov 20, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> This was one somebody here posted on the thread for the Adrift episode.  Not the best pic, but it was definitely there.  Looked real obvious on my hi-def TV.
> 
> http://lost.cubit.net/pics/lostShark.jpg




I can't even make out what is supposed to be in that pick.  I see the insignia you are talking about, but I can not make out what it is attached to.  I don't see a shark there, just various shades of blue.


----------



## Rel (Nov 20, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I can't even make out what is supposed to be in that pick.  I see the insignia you are talking about, but I can not make out what it is attached to.  I don't see a shark there, just various shades of blue.




I suppose you'll have to trust us then.  I assure you that this is a capture from the actual episode.  This has been widely reported and the significance of it speculated upon ad nauseum.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Nov 21, 2005)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> I can't even make out what is supposed to be in that pick.  I see the insignia you are talking about, but I can not make out what it is attached to.  I don't see a shark there, just various shades of blue.





What you see the insignia inprinted on is the shark's tail, the shark didn't have a huge tat on it.


----------



## Steverooo (Nov 21, 2005)

*Ana Lucia*

Continuing from the discussion in the last thread, I don't believe that we'll see her being a cop, in her back-story (nor SWAT, either)!  I think she's an Army brat...  Maybe her dad was special forces, or something, or maybe she had a gang background (although I doubt that).

She knew about the old military tang imprint, so that (and her "tough-guy attitude") suggests a military background.  She also obviously knows something about weapons, and melee/unarmed combat.

She was NICE, when we first saw her, in Jack's flashback, in season one, and she was pretty nice in the early parts of the last episode, too.  I think she'll also be nice in her own flashbacks, and hopefully they'll reveal something about her background...

I don't expect her to try to take over Jack's role as leader, but I DO expect her to give him trouble, and call him on all the stuff that HASN'T been done!  I also expect to see some romantic interest, not with Jack, but with either Sawyer, or (after some initial love-hate) with Sayid!  The former is more likely than the latter, at the moment, as Sayid is going to have to be angry with her, for a while, and doesn't strike me as the most forgiving type!  

We'll see...


----------



## David Howery (Nov 21, 2005)

the romantic tangling is going to be pretty knotted after a while... AL showed an interest in Jack at the airport, and vice versa... AL also seems to be getting a liking for Sawyer.  And Kate seems to have interests in both Jack and Sawyer.  And Eko seems to be interested in AL too.  Last season, Michael and the Korean woman (who's name I never remember) seemed to have the bare beginnings of interest in each other.  Sayid... doubt he's going to fall for anyone, having lost the best looking woman on the island.  And there's Claire and Merry (OK, can't remember his cast name either) too... are they going to get involved, or is he just interested in helping her with her kid.  So, that just leaves Libby... and Cindy, if she turns up again... which one would be best for Hurley?


----------



## orbitalfreak (Nov 21, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> ... which one would be best for Hurley?



He gets jealous of the return of Bernard, kidnaps Rose for his own, and uses the numbers to control the Security System(tm) to wipe out all opposition to him on the island.

Either that, or I've just been awake too long.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Nov 21, 2005)

orbitalfreak said:
			
		

> He gets jealous of the return of Bernard, kidnaps Rose for his own, and uses the numbers to control the Security System(tm) to wipe out all opposition to him on the island.
> 
> Either that, or I've just been awake too long.



Nay, Rose and Bernard are going to become Hugo's perfect parents...Still say Hugo and AL make a love connection.


----------



## Cutter XXIII (Nov 22, 2005)

So there's this weird island.

It's located at the center of an electromagnetic anomaly, like the Bermuda Triangle or the Oregon Vortex, "a spherical field of force, half above the ground and half below the ground. The word 'vortex' simply means a whirpool of force, like a whirling mass of water, especially one in which a force of suction operates, such as a whirlpool or a whirling mass of air, especially one in the form of a visible column or spiral, such as a tornado."

The Dharma Initiative (a benevolent organization, but funded by shadowy munitions magnate Alvar Hanso...) discovers the island, and sets out to discover what makes it tick (most likely, it was a huge meteorite that crashed into shallow ocean and grew over millions of years into an island...magnetically accruing into a landmass). Six research stations are constructed on the island.

But it's more than a science facility -- it's an attempt to create a utopian society based on a melding of Eastern mysticism and Western science, certainly inspired by Bucky Fuller but taking what Fuller only wrote about and making it real. The philosophy that accompanies their science is attuned to numbers, connections, attractions, repulsions, order, chaos. The experiments thrive, the DeGroots and their students progress toward a scientific and spiritual illumination only dreamt of by saints. The Code, the Grand Unification Theory, the numbers that make up the very combination lock of the universe, are discovered and applied to a laundry list of experimental science fields.

But there is...an incident.

The Swan (the station located closest to the original meteorite fragment, where the electromagnetic vortex is strongest) malfunctions completely. And the magnetic field, which was shaped like the whirlpool described above, begins to look more like a tornado. There's no way to reverse it, but it can be halted by encasing it in concrete and applying at regular intervals the algorithms of the Code. This is too important to be automated. Only a human being is trustworthy enough to keep the Swan from tearing loose and eventually ripping the island in half.

Several years pass. 

The effects of long-term exposure to strong electromagnetic fields is not yet known. The DeGroots and their students find out. In this case, the field (shunted by the concrete casing and deflection algorithms toward the island's center -- the jungle) causes people to revert to an animalistic state. They become like jungle predators -- fierce, quick and silent -- but they possess strong telepathic connections. But they are more ferocious and unpredictable than any other pack hunters on the planet. They are humans, after all. Over time they organize into a large tribe.

Little by little, the utopian society begins to crumble into madness and bloodshed. The DeGroots quarantine the main laboratory complex and research stations. Suddenly, what was the greatest hope for the future of mankind finds itself trapped, marooned on an island with a dangerous magnetic anomaly forever threatening to blow the lid, and a jungle teeming with the rapidly-multiplying victims of its emanations.

There's no rescue on the way. Outside Dharma, only Alvar Hanso himself was aware of the island, and even he didn't know its location. Their only hope is to overcome. And so, sealed inside the main lab, protected from the field's harmful effects, they succumb to their own special madness. Over time, the philosophical and humanistic elements of Dharma atrophy. They turn to pure science out of desperation, and as a result become supremely cold, pragmatic, ruthless. They become like Ahab in their refusal to let the utopian dream die, even though the methods they adopt to save it are rotting it from the core.

They are able to make the tribals their unwitting servants. Arthur C. Clarke's third law: "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The DeGroots and the remaining scientists put this principle to use, cowing the tribals through judicious use of the "security system" and other flashy effects. To the tribals, they become the Gods Who Live in the Mountain, venerated, feared, and served without question. Interesting enough, DeGroot is a Dutch surname meaning "The great, tall, large man." It's a dangerous game, though; any of the scientists who've been caught out by the tribals have been slaughtered, and then, ironically, offered to the "Gods."

Eventually, the scientists (who by now have their own extended families, just as the tribals do) hatch a plan to save their utopia. It is undeniable that just the right combination of people, with all their attendant skills and tendencies and backgrounds -- attractions and repulsions -- could save them from the brink. But the chances of such a combination of people arriving upon the island randomly are beyond astronomical. So they set out to make it happen.

They broadcast the Numbers.

They apply the Code, the algorithm of the Universe, to the electromagnetic field that encircles the earth. No, not the geologic field, but rather the growing network of electricity and information covering the world like a web. Modern media, internet, radio -- through these means faraway places are linked, connections are established without awareness, and everything is linked. Into that system they pour the Numbers, and through Mathematical Forecasting and Juxtapositional Eugenics, and even more advanced sciences, they basically hijack reality's operating system in many small ways that will lead eventually to what they need.

They release a virus into reality, and when it has executed completely...a plane flies off course. The plane is, "miraculously," filled with the combination of people that might be able to save the utopian dream of the DeGroots. It flies into the top of the magnetic "tornado" and is torn into pieces, swirled about, and tossed down in a seemingly anomalous debris spread. Calculations made a decade earlier ensure that the proper people survive, while the useless perish.

The people don't understand what's happening, why they survived. It seems like divine intervention, magic, purgatory. They experience the shifts of perception common to strong electromagnetic fields, only these are far more intense. They are given gifts that seem the purview of gods -- Locke's ability to walk, for example. But some of them are meant to help from within the lab (the children, as others have said, because they may still be conditioned to the "utopian" ideal, and others simply because they will be of no use against the tribe). The tribal servants are given lists of people to take and bring back to the Gods in the Mountain. They infiltrate groups of survivors in an attempt to manipulate them against the tribe. When their desired "special" child nearly escapes, they track him down in a boat.

The only problem is that DeGroot & Co. only used their algorithms to calculate a method to bring the necessary people. They never calculated what it would take to wipe out the tribe, save their dream, restore the Dharma Initiative to what it once was. But can it even be restored, with their morality so withered?

The show is about how it all plays out. That's my current theory.



			
				Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Have any of you read the TV guide article on Lost?  Apparently the producers talk about how people are reading too much into every little possible detail and it will lead to dissapointment due to it being impossible to live up to the expectations people are getting since not everything will be explained.  I haven't read it but it was a topic on a different forum and I was curious what everone thought of that idea.  I know people in here obsesss over a lot of small stuff.  Do you think that will happen?




I think many viewers have been conditioned by shows like the X-Files, with their neverending layers of mystery. There's no bottom to those mysteries. There's no way to draw a circle around it, or show how deep it goes. It was meant to go forever.

With Lost, I get the sense that they created a very strange and unique place and situation -- maybe similar to the theory I've posted above, maybe not -- and then started playing with _how that place would appear to people ignorant of its true nature_, viewers included.

I think it is overstudied, though. A lot of people seem to trust it less the more they learn.


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## WizarDru (Nov 22, 2005)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> The show is about how it all plays out. That's my current theory.
> 
> I think many viewers have been conditioned by shows like the X-Files, with their neverending layers of mystery. There's no bottom to those mysteries. There's no way to draw a circle around it, or show how deep it goes. It was meant to go forever.
> 
> ...




I'm about 90% in agreement with you.  That's a great write-up, frankly.  I think there's a few more details, but I think you've nailed a good chunk of it.  This pretty much mirrors what I've been thinking for a while, although we disagree on some of the specifics.

Of course, one reason that the show is so heavily studied is that they reward such attentions, even if it's with minor token details.  Noticing little things is like a game that the show's creators play with us;  the problem comes when people begin reading ridiculous amounts of detail into the most insignificant elements (witness last week's 'who _stabbed_ Shannnon' stuff).


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## fett527 (Nov 23, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> ...the problem comes when people begin reading ridiculous amounts of detail into the most insignificant elements (witness last week's 'who _stabbed_ Shannnon' stuff).



I don't see this as a problem or the elements insignificant.  Sure we'll find out the next episode what happens (in this case) but there is fun in speculating.  They never showed a camera angle of Shannon and Ana together.  It looked like something else could have happened and the scene was shot this way purposefully.  I don't see analyzing the details and speculating as a problem.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Nov 23, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> what I keep wondering is just how damn big is this island, and how did anyone keep it hidden from the world for so long.  There aren't any undiscovered Pacific islands anymore, especially ones as big as this one.  And why aren't there any natives on it?  The only islands that are uninhabited are those that are too small to support agriculture.... and with modern shipping and air, even those are getting to have people on them....




Just because an island has been located somewhere doesn't mean that the whole world will know and identify it. How may known "known" countries could you locate on the globe  - or better, the other way around: imagine picking a random spot on the globe and asking what country it is - There are many spots where you wouldn't have an idea...

Imagine someone claimed the rights to the island (how ever this may be possible). He could simply ignore it, or conduct experiments to create dinosaurs, whatever he wants - as long as his activities aren't known to the public, the island is meaningless for everyone, even if it is contained in maps ...


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## Cutter XXIII (Nov 23, 2005)

fett527 said:
			
		

> I don't see analyzing the details and speculating as a problem.




Hey, it's fun. I do it too. Walt on the milk carton, Jack walking by as Shannon hears about her dad's death, Dharma logo on the shark, mysterious radio transmissions explained a whole season later, Hurley on TV in Korea, even things you have to go online to find, like backwards recordings of Walt's voice so you can hear what he's saying.

But the actress who plays Shannon had publicly taken other acting jobs. The producers said after the episode aired that yes, she's leaving the show. But many people (not on this board, that I saw) refused to believe Shannon was really dead. The screen caps sure made it look like there was a mystery there, but those people who went back and watched their DVR recording of the show said, "Nope, it's very smoothly edited. She's holding the empty gun, lowers her arm, camera angle changes as the arm reaches her side." And yet some people refused to believe that Ana Lucia was the shooter. Even you, Fett, are still saying we'll find out what happens next episode. What? I know you missed it the first time, but they re-capped it last episode.   

Anyway, that's just observation.

It's not a "problem" to speculate and pore over the details that the writers obviously worked hard to insert. But the writers have now publicly stated that not every little detail, not every little mystery, will be explained. I suspect we'll get a Big Reveal at some point, and there'll be enough for everyone to connect the dots. But there will still be those who complain (long and loudly) that not every dot was drawn into the resulting picture.

And even then, it's not a "problem," per se. People always have a right to their opinions. But those people who obsess over whether, for example, Bernard's answer of "No, we're the survivors of Oceanic Flight 815!" was _really_ the same transmission that Boone received last season are, in my humble opinion, taking things one step too far.

Suspecting every single reveal of being another mystery is a set-up for disappointment. Sometimes glass eyes and Bibles really did belong to smugglers.


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 23, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Just because an island has been located somewhere doesn't mean that the whole world will know and identify it. How may known "known" countries could you locate on the globe  - or better, the other way around: imagine picking a random spot on the globe and asking what country it is - There are many spots where you wouldn't have an idea...
> 
> Imagine someone claimed the rights to the island (how ever this may be possible). He could simply ignore it, or conduct experiments to create dinosaurs, whatever he wants - as long as his activities aren't known to the public, the island is meaningless for everyone, even if it is contained in maps ...



the Island is more than likely in international waters and away from shipping lanes, it could also have been a purchase/lease from a country, like France, or the natives.  Once this is done, the island can be declaired protected.  It is not so much getting to the island, it is knowning where it is and then getting there, the oceans are vast and even if the island is big you have to be within a distance to see it...(and get by its security systems)...plus you can use fear to keep people from it, aka the 'quartine', possible leppers, black plague, head hunters.  Last year in the Tsunami, I was suprised to hear that some islands in the area were off-limits because the natives did not want contact and would attack people who came to the islands to check on them.


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## fett527 (Nov 24, 2005)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> Hey, it's fun. I do it too. Walt on the milk carton, Jack walking by as Shannon hears about her dad's death, Dharma logo on the shark, mysterious radio transmissions explained a whole season later, Hurley on TV in Korea, even things you have to go online to find, like backwards recordings of Walt's voice so you can hear what he's saying.
> 
> But the actress who plays Shannon had publicly taken other acting jobs. The producers said after the episode aired that yes, she's leaving the show. But many people (not on this board, that I saw) refused to believe Shannon was really dead. The screen caps sure made it look like there was a mystery there, but those people who went back and watched their DVR recording of the show said, "Nope, it's very smoothly edited. She's holding the empty gun, lowers her arm, camera angle changes as the arm reaches her side." And yet some people refused to believe that Ana Lucia was the shooter. Even you, Fett, are still saying we'll find out what happens next episode. What? I know you missed it the first time, but they re-capped it last episode.
> 
> ...



I understand the point, and I knew Shannon was shot by AL sometime after I had posted that I was convinced otherwise.  When I go out to other sites to glean info I take the risk of running into spoilers and I found out things like the producers saying she was dead and 



Spoiler



Ana being a cop


.  I just didn't let on or post that because those were spoilers.  Point is mysteries and specualtion are an integral part of this show and I will continue to dig into them and post speculations and theories that are at least believable. 

Example of something ridiculous:  Poster on another board swore up and down there was a Dharma logo on the beach where the tailies landed.  Clearly it can be seen that a man was crawling around on the beach making the tracks in the sand.  A few people thought this was significant and really kewl.  I try to weed these things out and discuss more feasible and interesting material.


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## Ukyo the undead (Nov 28, 2005)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Up until now, I'd assumed that Ethan had snuck into the Fuselagers camp sometime during the first day or two, when things were still somewhat chaotic.  In a group that large it would be easy to plant someone in and have the rest be none the wiser.  But after seeing tonight's episode, it sure looks like Goodwin (at least) was inserted almost instantly(...)
> 
> So there's two possible conclusions we could infer here.
> 
> ...




I thought that too.

What looks like is that the accidents leading people to that island is a very usual ocorrence, usual enough to make the main power group in the island (the others) realize that and develop a method to handle it.

So, maybe the others didnt know that a plane was going to crash at that moment, but know enough about the island "properties" to be prepared to a ocurrence like that.


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## Ukyo the undead (Nov 28, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Another question is why the others have left the one group alone as long as it has, was this because they found out about Ethan or becuase the group was 'protected' by its location; the hatch/the button/the monster or something else.




Looks like the taillies crashed closer to the Others area of influence.

And the front section came up with a much more structured community than the taillies, with guns and with more people, hence making the Other´s 'harvest' harder to accomplish.

Maybe...


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## Hand of Evil (Nov 29, 2005)

Ukyo said:
			
		

> Looks like the taillies crashed closer to the Others area of influence.
> 
> And the front section came up with a much more structured community than the taillies, with guns and with more people, hence making the Other´s 'harvest' harder to accomplish.
> 
> Maybe...



I really don't know if that was the case, Ethan was with the group as soon as group crashed, same as the tail-enders mole, this makes appear that they were equal distance.


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## Ukyo the undead (Nov 29, 2005)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> I really don't know if that was the case, Ethan was with the group as soon as group crashed, same as the tail-enders mole, this makes appear that they were equal distance.




Are you sure? I thought that Ethan showed up on screen only 1 or 2 episodes before he became relevant to the plot. I dont remember him in the episode 1 (but I wasn´t looking either), what may mean  that he entered the group at least a few hours after the crash, giving him plenty of time to prepare himself to do it.

If you remember him before, please tell me: it would confuse me a lot.


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