# JLA vs Avengers - who wins?



## Morrus (Apr 29, 2015)

In a fight, assuming it's not a crossover event where both companies have agreed to a stalemate, who wins between a head on clash to the end between the current movie Avengers and the (expected) upcoming movie Justice League?


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## delericho (Apr 29, 2015)

Based on the current movie depictions?

Justice League. Because the Avengers care about collateral damage while the Man of Steel, apparently, does not.


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## Morrus (Apr 29, 2015)

delericho said:


> Based on the current movie depictions?
> 
> Justice League. Because the Avengers care about collateral damage while the Man of Steel, apparently, does not.




The Hulk is well known for his careful avoidance of collateral damage!


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## Crothian (Apr 29, 2015)

Hard to say without really knowing who is in the upcoming Justice League movie but I imagine it will be DC. It's really hard to deal with just the Flash who is many times faster then Quicksilver.


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## delericho (Apr 29, 2015)

The Hulk isn't, but Banner?

If you want a serious answer, the JLA still win. Green Lantern deals with the Hulk by caging him and moving him off-planet - with his inability to fly he's relatively easily dealt with. Batman counters Iron Man, and Supes counters Thor.

That leaves Wonder Woman and the Flash vs Black Widow, Cap, and Hawkeye. Even with the drag factor of Aquaman, they should be able to handle it.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2015)

How close the fight is depends on which era and who is a member, but I'd lean towards the JLA winning, regardless.

1) As the only one able to travel through time under his own power, The Flash is pretty much the fastest speedster in comics.  Even when he was depicted in an homage in Marvel Comics as the amnesiac "Buried Alien"- as I recall, he had died or was thought dead in DC Comics at the time- he beat all of the speedsters in the Marvel Universe in a foot race in which they all had a head start.

2) Batman- psychotically- has a plan to defeat any meta human of which he is aware.  As a problem solver, Tony Stark is his intellectual equal or superior, but he's not driven quite the same way.

3) At the peak of his power, not only could Superman travel through time himself, he was so strong he was capable of moving whole planets.  While there is no known upper limit to The Hulk's strength, there's a delay built into his ramping up based on his temper.  Even if you add Thor, Hercules, Iron Man, Wonder Man and The Vision to the Avengers lineup, the JLA can basically counter with Wonder Woman, the Martian Manhunter and Green Lantern.

When you get to the others, it's kind of a wash- Hawkeye vs Green Arrow, Atom vs Ant-Man/Giant-man/Yellowjacket, Scarlet Witch vs Zatanna...

So...it kind of becomes a "who shoots first, wins" showdown, with the JLA having the edge, IMHO.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2015)

Actually, if the kid gloves are off, Supes, Flash and GL could probably kill most of the Avengers because of their speed and ability to strike from range- including from orbit- before the Avengers even knew there was a fight going on.

The wildcards would be The Scarlet Witch's reality warping Hex power and whether Thor's power to call on lighting would be considered "magic" when it came to Superman's vulnerability.


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## Tonguez (Apr 29, 2015)

Batman could easily take Ironman and as for everyone else, Superman is way overpowered and so he beats everyone except the Hulk. (The Hulk can beat Supes!) however The Hulk gets dealt with by Green Lantern  (as explained above) and thrown into space to become the new king of an alien planet.

What I want to see is a Superman vs Martian Manhunter fight - who wins that?


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## Morrus (Apr 29, 2015)

Tonguez said:


> What I want to see is a Superman vs Martian Manhunter fight - who wins that?




Fire is MM's Kryptonite. Heat vision is the winner there.

Without that weakness, they're a physical  match, with MM adding mental powers, giving him the win.


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## Umbran (Apr 29, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Actually, if the kid gloves are off, Supes, Flash and GL could probably kill most of the Avengers because of their speed and ability to strike from range- including from orbit- before the Avengers even knew there was a fight going on.




I think there's a hole in your reasoning there, Danny - the ranged combat ability isn't huge there.  Only Superman can hit from really long range (like from orbit), as he is the only one with the visual acuity for it.  Anyone else (including Green Lantern) has to be in basic line of sight - within striking distance of repulsor beams, arrows, or Mjolnir.  The Flash is fast, but he doesn't hit *hard* - his strength is in special effects, not damaging punches, as is seen in how some of his biggest enemies are basically guys with special effects guns.  

The result cannot be predicted unless we know who knows what.  Broadly speaking, DC heroes are more powerful than Marvel ones (which is often a problem for DC, as it makes their characters difficult to relate to, but anyway).  But, those powerful heroes have iconic weaknesses.  So, do the Avengers know about Kryptonite?  Or the Green Lantern's traditional weakness to yellow?  I mean, the fight looks very different if Iron Man gets to tune his repulsors to give off Kryptonite radiation, or if the Hulk knows to throw a school bus (*Yellow!*  *Wham!*) at Green Lantern.  On the flip side - Batman's ability to take down heroes is based on *preparation*.  If he hasn't studied the Avengers, he may not be terribly impressive in this fight - more like Hawkeye or Black Widow than Iron Man.

There are other ways this falls out that have nothing to do with superpowers.  Consider:  The Flash is normally a really nice guy.  Superman (as normally written) is a big Boy Scout.  Captain America is an even bigger Boy Scout, but one with extra charisma - one inspiring speech from Cap, and those two DC heroes may be easily convinced that there shouldn't be a fight at all.  And if Superman decides to help *stop* the fight, I think the fight is done.


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## Morrus (Apr 29, 2015)

Umbran said:


> There are other ways this falls out that have nothing to do with superpowers.  Consider:  The Flash is normally a really nice guy.  Superman (as normally written) is a big Boy Scout.  Captain America is an even bigger Boy Scout, but one with extra charisma - one inspiring speech from Cap, and those two DC heroes may be easily convinced that there shouldn't be a fight at all.  And if Superman decides to help *stop* the fight, I think the fight is done.




Yeah, that's how all the crossovers end the conflicts prematurely.  That's the usual resolution - they scuffle then realise they shouldn't be fighting. The debate is predicated on the assumption that doesn't happen.


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## Umbran (Apr 29, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Yeah, that's how all the crossovers end the conflicts prematurely.




Almost, but not quite.  The crossovers do that because they can't have anyone winning.  I am, instead, noting that one of the people on the field very specifically has charisma and leadership as a superpower.    

I mean, think of it for a minute - if the two sides don't know about each other beforehand, and Thor's lightning doesn't count as magic, then flat out -> Superman wins.  He is stronger than anyone else on the field, invulnerable, can tolerate vacuum, and super-fast enough for convenient interplanetary flight.  Technically, as Danny points out, Superman can just drop a friggin' asteroid on the Avengers, and everyone dies.  He doesn't even need the rest of the JLA.  Debate over.  Happy?

But, I didn't see you remove any of Superman's powers because it made the fight end prematurely.  So, why remove super-leadership?  

Restricting yoruself to the physical knock-down drag out is what happens if your players aren't thinking creatively.  Outside the box, I say!


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## trappedslider (Apr 29, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Fire is MM's Kryptonite. Heat vision is the winner there.
> 
> Without that weakness, they're a physical  match, with MM adding mental powers, giving him the win.




Depends on which form MM is,there's a form where he is immune to fire and is considered to be the most powerful member of the JL by Batman,whose plan to take MM down if he were immune to fire is PlasticMan for a number of reasons.

As for the Flash, it would be depend on which universe the fight takes place, as noted in one of the number of cross over comics Marvel's universe doesn't have the speedforce and without that The Flash isn't very fast or powerful.

Back during the original Marvel vs DC event, it was noted by the folks behind the comics that Captain America would have eventually won the fight between him and Batman. It was also noted that during a team up cross over that Captain America was/is the superior tactician of both groups.

As for the power of the Hulk,it also depends on if you're going with the gets bigger and stronger the angrier he gets.

EDIT: Then there's the notion that Batman with enough time and planning can take down anyone anywhere......


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2015)

Umbran said:


> I think there's a hole in your reasoning there, Danny - the ranged combat ability isn't huge there.  Only Superman can hit from really long range (like from orbit), as he is the only one with the visual acuity for it.




First, GL can improve his visual acuity with his ring- he's created binoculars and telescopes before.  Second, remember, the main limitations on an Oan Lantern's power are 1) the color yellow, 2) their willpower.  He could make a personal GL Hubble in orbit for targeting purposes.  Better yet, he could use an energy double to track and pinpoint his targets.  

Hell, he might not even have to do that.  Remember, Hal Jordan was selected and plucked from mid air in a jet by a dying Abin Sur...without line of sight, as I recall.

IOW, GL is at least as capable as Superman of simply flinging asteroids at his intended target(s) with accuracy (or without concern for collateral damage) as long as he keeps his ring charged and he has the desire to do so.

Add to that, the power rings allow GLs to manipulate matter at an atomic level and screw around with electomagnetic energies on (almost) all wavelengths.  How do you think most Avngers would handle a burst of hard radiation.  (OK, the Hulk would be happy to tan in some more gamma bursts...)  Theoretically, GL could do an EMP.  How Iron Man and the Vision would like that would depend on how strong it was.

Along with Superman, he is one of the few characters who can go into space, unaided.  I don't think any Avenger can do that without changing their equipment- Thor and Iron Man have gone into space, but had special suits to do so.

Along with Superman & The Flash, he is one of the few characters who can travel in time unaided.  Great for intelligence work...or for giving someone the Weeping Angel treatment.  Time traveling Avengers stories almost always involved Kang's platform or some other device.

And there is no reason he couldn't use a combination of a force bubble prison followed by a fling into the void of space- all at extreme range- to take care of most targets.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 29, 2015)

> On the flip side - Batman's ability to take down heroes is based on *preparation*. If he hasn't studied the Avengers, he may not be terribly impressive in this fight - more like Hawkeye or Black Widow than Iron Man.




I think the most interesting battles between the characters would be at the level of the paragon martial artists.

Batman is one of DC's most formidable martial artists...but he isn't #1.  Sometimes, his focus gets in the way of the mission.  In the short-lived Manhunter series, the finale had Bats and The Manhunter assaulting an enemy base- think of an updated mass martial arts movie combat.

While The Manhunter respected Wayne's prowess, he noted that Batman was getting slogged down by taking down the biggest and the baddest...while he instead cut through the minions like a laser through butter in order to get inside and take down the bosses.

And paragon level partial artists is one area in which-_ I think_- the Avengers have a measurable numerical advantage in their membership.

The JLA has sported Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Vixen, Hawkman, Hawkwoman...and not too many others.  The Avengers can counter with Cptain America, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Black Widow, US Agent, Black Knight, the Swordsman, Hellcat, Mantis, Mockingbird, Moon Knight...the list goes on.

But for demigods who walk the earth?  The JLA always has a full house.  They had Captain Marvel (aka Shazam).  They had Firestorm.  They had Captain Atom.  They had Dr. Fate.  They had Mon-El.


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## trappedslider (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> First, GL can improve his visual acuity with his ring- he's created binoculars and telescopes before.  Second, remember, the main limitations on an Oan Lantern's power are 1) the color yellow, 2) their willpower.




Actually they removed the yellow weakness and now it's mainly Willpower and Charge...In one notable event John Stewart's willpower exceeded what the ring's capability.


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> First, GL can improve his visual acuity with his ring- he's created binoculars and telescopes before.  Second, remember, the main limitations on an Oan Lantern's power are 1) the color yellow, 2) their willpower.  He could make a personal GL Hubble in orbit for targeting purposes.




The issue there is that the wearers of the GL ring don't generally have the cognitive ability to do orbital mechanics in their heads.  Superman does.



> Add to that, the power rings allow GLs to manipulate matter at an atomic level and screw around with electomagnetic energies on (almost) all wavelengths.  How do you think most Avngers would handle a burst of hard radiation.  (OK, the Hulk would be happy to tan in some more gamma bursts...)  Theoretically, GL could do an EMP.  How Iron Man and the Vision would like that would depend on how strong it was.




It has been noted that they are limited by their own knowledge, cognitive abilities, and understanding, however - in order to make a construct put out kryptonite radiation, Hal needed coaching from Batman.  Hal is not a world-class *scientist*.  Guy Gardner was even less bright.  He got beat up by a cat.  Not a super-powered, Kryptonian cat.  Just a plain-old, ornery yellow cat.  One Green Lantern (Ch'p) died _getting run over by a truck_.  Just a yellow truck.  Not even in a fight.  Which is to say, being a GL does not make one a genius.  They are impressive, but not all-powerful unless the writers are forgetting themselves.

The real point I was making, however, is that while Supes is in play without restriction, the rest are superfluous.  If we don't have the Avengers beating Superman, the rest of the debate is completely irrelevant.  And the Avengers probably can't do that without knowing Superman's weaknesses.



> Along with Superman & The Flash, he is one of the few characters who can travel in time unaided.  Great for intelligence work...or for giving someone the Weeping Angel treatment.  Time traveling Avengers stories almost always involved Kang's platform or some other device.




Well, now you are probably stepping out of the movie universe, and into the comics universe.  At that point, I thin you'll find that probably every major DC character has done time travel on their own at some point or other.  But the *movie* GL has not shown this ability, has he?  Not to mention, none of these time-travellers should be doing so unless it is *absolutely necessary*.  Superman and the Flash don't travel in time *every instance* in which they might get beat up.  It is not their Big Red Win Button.



> And there is no reason he couldn't use a combination of a force bubble prison followed by a fling into the void of space- all at extreme range- to take care of most targets.




As I said - if the Hulk throws a school bus at him, he is still squished.  

(Actually, that's only traditionally - in the comics these days, the yellow-weakness has been removed.)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

I'll just say that Hal Jordan- a test pilot- honed his mind and will to become one of the the most powerful members of the Corp, ever, and has done interplanetary- possibly intergalactic- travel.  He'd be on my short list of GLs who could figure out how to accurately toss asteroids for effect.

As for school busses...well, he's handled yellow projectiles before, either by evasion or by scooping up something like some earth or pavement to use as a shield.


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I think the most interesting battles between the characters would be at the level of the paragon martial artists.




Agreed - many of DC's characters have so much raw power, they don't need a whole lot of personal skill.



> And paragon level partial artists is one area in which-_ I think_- the Avengers have a measurable numerical advantage in their membership.
> 
> The JLA has sported Batman, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Vixen, Hawkman, Hawkwoman...and not too many others.  The Avengers can counter with Cptain America, Hawkeye, Black Panther, Black Widow, US Agent, Black Knight, the Swordsman, Hellcat, Mantis, Mockingbird, Moon Knight...the list goes on.
> 
> But for demigods who walk the earth?  The JLA always has a full house.  They had Captain Marvel (aka Shazam).  They had Firestorm.  They had Captain Atom.  They had Dr. Fate.  They had Mon-El.




Well, now you are stepping far out of the movies on both sides for these.  But, if we are to do that, we start having more interesting questions:

Dr. Strange has been an Avenger.  This is your Superman-killer, because *magic*.  Doc Strange, really, is about on par with a Green Lantern in most respects.  Though, he can probably end the fight with one spell - toss everyone from DC into Dormammu's domain, and let him handle it.  

Wolverine has been an Avenger.  Now it gets interesting - as we have someone Superman can't beat to death!  And we get to have the argument over whether Wolverine's claws can pierce Kryptonian skin! 

Spider Man has been an Avenger.  That gets rid of the surprise attack from space (spider-sense tingling!).  Also, another effective paragon martial artist.

Black Knight has a magic sword, which may be an anti-climatic way of dealing with Superman.  Superman and Hulk or Thor got at it for a few minutes of furious destruction, and the Black Knight quietly walks up and _*stab*_, it is over.

And if we include Sentry, who is admittedly mentally unstable, but has Superman-level powers....

It becomes clear that this way lies madness.  The extended rosters of both groups are so large...


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I'll just say that Hal Jordan- a test pilot- honed his mind and will to become one of the the most powerful members of the Corp, ever, and has done interplanetary- possibly intergalactic- travel.  He'd be on my short list of GLs who could figure out how to accurately toss asteroids for effect.




With respect, Danny, as one of the few people on the boards that has actually done orbital mechanics - normal humans *don't* do this in their heads.  The error tolerances are too small.  Unless super-intelligence is one of your superpowers, it ain't happening.  



> As for school busses...well, he's handled yellow projectiles before, either by evasion or by scooping up something like some earth or pavement to use as a shield.




Fine.  Dump a bucket of yellow body paint over the Hulk.  

(Perhaps I need to mention - I find Green Lanterns in general to be sanctimonious twerps.  They are, in their arrogance, worse than the Jedi Order, and bring about as much and more suffering to their universe.  I am not a GL fan, and enjoy when they get their comeuppances.  I will gleefully continue to find ways to squish Green Lanterns  )


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## Morrus (Apr 30, 2015)

Umbran said:


> With respect, Danny, as one of the few people on the boards that has actually done orbital mechanics - normal humans *don't* do this in their heads.  The error tolerances are too small.  Unless super-intelligence is one of your superpowers, it ain't happening.




But so is interglactic travel, and he can do that.  If he can navigate the galaxy (which he can), then he can handle orbital mechanics.


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Morrus said:


> But so is interglactic travel, and he can do that.  If he can navigate the galaxy (which he can), then he can handle orbital mechanics.




Actually, Morrus, that does not at all follow.  The physics of moving normal masses under gravity must be different from the physics of FTL travel.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Actually, Morrus, that does not at all follow.  The physics of moving normal masses under gravity must be different from the physics of FTL travel.




But it DOES follow from his duties as Green Lantern- not of Earth- but of a large sector of space.  He- presumably with most of the "heavy lifting" done by the ring- has to be able to navigate between planets, between solar systems, etc.  IOW, he has to be able to do both just to do his job.  There's a reason the Oan rings are widely regarded as the most dangerous weapons in the universe.

Re: yellow Hulk: it isn't like Hal Jordan and other GLs haven't faced foes covered entirely in yellow.

He just gets swatted by material just like the bus does.  

If nothing else, Hal could launch the section of ground upon which the Hulk stands like a pinball.  Once launched on said trajectory to near earth orbit, Hulk is pretty powerless to change his eventual destination.  He might be able to alter his angle of escape a little bit by jumping off against the bigger mass, but that will only be good for a few degrees- it won't get him back to the ground any sooner.

...or, unless Hulk has blinded himself with the yellow paint, Homicidal Hal could just send a couple of lances of pure Oan energy into his eyes and out the back of his head.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Wolverine is much more interesting.  We know from stuff set in the future that he can and does die.  His full adamanti skeleton is on display in a case in somebody's collection.

(The Collector's?)

What we don't know is what it takes.  Is Supes's heat vision enough to do the trick?  Or would he have to resort to the vacuum of space?

Dr. Strange IS indeed another wildcard.  Again, depending on when in his story arc you look, he's taken down multidimensional beings that some might consider gods.  And magic is a vulnerability for Superman.

But he probably has to spend HIS energies dealing with Dr. Fate, the limits of whose powers is unknown.  And THAT fight is as close to an apocalyptic conflict as things would get.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

> It has been noted that they are limited by their own knowledge, cognitive abilities, and understanding, however - in order to make a construct put out kryptonite radiation, Hal needed coaching from Batman. Hal is not a world-class *scientist*. Guy Gardner was even less bright. He got beat up by a cat. Not a super-powered, Kryptonian cat. Just a plain-old, ornery yellow cat. One Green Lantern (Ch'p) died getting run over by a truck. Just a yellow truck. Not even in a fight. Which is to say, being a GL does not make one a genius. They are impressive, but not all-powerful unless the writers are forgetting themselves.




Gardner vs Cat and C'hp vs Truck are 2 of my least favorite bits of writing in DC history.  I don't think the truck was even yellow- C'hp just got caught in the headlights like a mundane critter and failed to react at all...

Which is idiotic writing (for both)- every last GL is taught about setting up automatic defenses and power triggers that by defintion require ZERO conscious thought to activate.


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## Morrus (Apr 30, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Actually, Morrus, that does not at all follow.  The physics of moving normal masses under gravity must be different from the physics of FTL travel.




The physics might. The level of complexity is the issue. If he's capable of the extraordinarily complex mental calculations required for intergalactic FTL navigation and travel under his own power, he's capable of other super heroic mental calculations, too.


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> But it DOES follow from his duties as Green Lantern- not of Earth- but of a large sector of space.  He- presumably with most of the "heavy lifting" done by the ring- has to be able to navigate between planets, between solar systems, etc.




As I have already noted - the physics (and therefore the math) of dropping a rock from orbit is not likely to bear much if any resemblance to that of travelling at FTL speeds.  

Under the influence of the ring, moving himself with loads of fine control and correction, will also bear little resemblance to dropping a rock in freefall from orbit and hitting a smallish target.  And, if he carries the rock down, under power, he's losing the assist of gravity - he might as well just pick up a car on the surface and whollop someone with it at that point.  Far simpler.



> IOW, he has to be able to do both just to do his job.  There's a reason the Oan rings are widely regarded as the most dangerous weapons in the universe.




As I said - one GL *allowed himself to get run over by a mundane truck and die*.  The ring doesn't make you a genius, or even particularly observant.  It is a dangerous weapon, but the wearers are just people.  

But, you know, if your'e not going to allow for plausible limitations on them, fine.  The DC heroes win.  End of debate.  Happy?

Part of discussion is "give ant take" guys.  You're not allowing for any.  Makes it kind of pointless.


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## trappedslider (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Wolverine is much more interesting.  We know from stuff set in the future that he can and does die.  His full adamanti skeleton is on display in a case in somebody's collection.
> 
> (The Collector's?)
> 
> ...




In the story line "Death Of wolverine" how he dies is a virus from the microversewhich caused Wolverine's mutant healing factor to burn out and stop working, he's then covered in  Adamantium and so he died from suffocation from the hardening Adamantium after a fight.

Also in one storyline which i believe takes place after the events of Kingdom Superman understands the fundamental paradox of magic and is no longer vulnerable to it, this  superman is also no longer vulnerable to  kryptonite due  to all those years soaking up the sun.


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## RangerWickett (Apr 30, 2015)

Deadpool realizes it's a cross-over, goes and buys some DC comics, then guilt-trips the JLA for their sexism. He's aided by Wonder Woman, whom most of you didn't even mention.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Umbran said:


> As I have already noted - the physics (and therefore the math) of dropping a rock from orbit is not likely to bear much if any resemblance to that of travelling at FTL speeds.



I'm not arguing that point at all.

I am saying that he also travels through space at speeds infinitely slower than c.  But I also get that your true point is this:



> Under the influence of the ring, moving himself with loads of fine control and correction, will also bear little resemblance to dropping a rock in freefall from orbit and hitting a smallish target.  And, if he carries the rock down, under power, he's losing the assist of gravity




My response is that Hal Jordan, human experimental jet test pilot- is unlikely to have any concept of the (DC universe) physics involved in doing many of the things he does- FTL, generating infinitely malleable force fields, travel via wormholes, generating his uniform ex nihilo.  The Oans did all that math and built it into the rings.  All the operator has to do is conceive of the doing ad will it to be so.  Essentially, the Oan rings are as close to rings of infinite wishes as exist in the DC Universe.

If Hal can conceive of dropping a 1 ton asteroid from the belt between Mars and Jupiter on the corner of 4th & Main of Star City- a relatively stationary target as opposed to a person in motion on said street- he doesn't need to do the math, the ring will do it for him.

They DO have limitations- mainly, the minds of the wielders.  Once, Hal had to give a ring to a being chosen to be a GL, but the being was blind.  As in, the being's species was blind.  Without a concept of light and sight, Hal couldn't teach it the oath required to recharge the ring.  Even the ring's ability to act as a universal translator was ineffective, since there was no words related to "light" in the being's vocabulary.  He had to formulate in his mind an oath that kept the spirit of the original but operated on concepts the being could comprehend.  (He succeeded.)



> he might as well just pick up a car on the surface and whollop someone with it at that point.  Far simpler.



Except, as we all know, that would be 100% ineffective on any of the targets he'd consider dropping an asteroid on- they're all too tough and strong.



> As I said - one GL *allowed himself to get run over by a mundane truck and die*.  The ring doesn't make you a genius, or even particularly observant.  It is a dangerous weapon, but the wearers are just people.
> 
> But, you know, if your'e not going to allow for plausible limitations on them, fine.  The DC heroes win.  End of debate.  Happy?
> 
> Part of discussion is "give ant take" guys.  You're not allowing for any.  Makes it kind of pointless.




Umbran, I didn't write up the powers and limitations of the characters in question, reasonable or otherwise, which is one reason why I said in my initial response was that who wins depends on which versions of the characters and which team lineups you look at.

I'm perfectly willing to discuss the abilities and flaws of any of the characters in question, at any time in any character's multiply retconned origins and official stats.

Sure, the Avengers have some nifty tricks up their sleeves, too.  Thor can open up trans-dimensional portals.  But it takes time for him to do so, and he can't do much else while doing so.

Cap's shield is so good at absorbing kinetic energy, he has withstood blows from some of the biggest powerhouses in the Marvel Universe- Hulk, the Thing, Thor, Iron Man, etc.- and lived to lecture them about their tempers.

Scarlet Witch is potentially as powerful as Dr. Strange near his peak.  But whether her hex powers can merely cause malfunctions or full on alter reality depends, in part, on her sanity at the time.

The problem is simple: Marvel characters- even those directly based on DC characters like those in the Squadron Sinister/Supreme- tend to be written as being significantly less über than DC characters.  That's has been one of their draws.  Even the most powerful Marvel superheroes tend to be more human...and more limited for it.

The reason why I hated the Cat & Truck storylines- or similarly, Batman's punching Guy out- so much is not that the GLs in question had their mortality revealed- that is a granted.  What I objected to is that both Guy and C'hp were experienced Green Lanterns, and the events in question were so predictable & preventable that a GL getting hurt or killed in those ways would have meant they shouldn't have survived to become experienced Green Lanterns in the first place.  Neither attack should have gotten past the auto shields that 99.99% of all Lanterns use for personal defense.

At the very least, Guy- who we know had used such a force field in the past- should have been protected from those attacks.  In his case, at least, it wasn't a case of his human limitations, it was writers tossing out a character's standard operating procedure for comedic effect.


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## delericho (Apr 30, 2015)

Umbran said:


> The result cannot be predicted unless we know who knows what.  Broadly speaking, DC heroes are more powerful than Marvel ones (which is often a problem for DC, as it makes their characters difficult to relate to, but anyway).  But, those powerful heroes have iconic weaknesses.  So, do the Avengers know about Kryptonite?




Perhaps worth mentioning that in the current iteration of the films, Kryptonite appears not to exist.



Umbran said:


> Wolverine has been an Avenger.  Now it gets interesting - as we have someone Superman can't beat to death!  And we get to have the argument over whether Wolverine's claws can pierce Kryptonian skin!




Wolverine has the same problem as the Hulk: with no ranged attacks and no ability to fly, he's relatively easy to deal with - just box him up, move him into space, and watch him float away.

But, broadly speaking, your argument that it comes down to "who knows what" is probably the key - with ties favouring DC.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Most of DC's "demigods" have some pretty devastating weaknesses.  Mon-El, the daxxamite, is every bit as powerful as Superman...but is allergic to lead.  I think we can all agree that's more common than kryptonite.   Many of them- some Marvel ones, too- also have a human form in which they're as vulnerable as you or I.

The thing is, as I've said, it depends on which incarnations of the chracters we're discussing and the overall tactical situation.  I mean, if we went back to genesis, the original version of Supeman probably couldn't take the likes of the original Thor.   OTOH, the cw's version of the Flash- who has been shot by a crossbow bolt and seemingly catches a haymaker on the chin every week because he doesn't think tactically- has already shown most of the character's most powerful abilities.  He has vibrated through a wall and traveled through time.  I'm things King that's damn fast.

AFAIK, only 2 characters from The Avengers- Thor and Iron Man- have ever achieved escape velocity on their own.  Hulk almost did...but his oxygen needs made him pass out.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 30, 2015)

I think it comes down to prep.  No prep, meeting in a bar fight, I lean toward JLA as it is use what you have on you and around you.  If a fight date, Avengers, Tony can just armor up everyone, don't know if the Hulk would wear power armor but it would be cool to see it.


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## delericho (Apr 30, 2015)

Hand of Evil said:


> If a fight date, Avengers, Tony can just armor up everyone...




It's funny how often this comes up. And yet he hasn't done so by the time of the second Avengers film. Ever wonder if perhaps there's a reason why not?


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 30, 2015)

delericho said:


> It's funny how often this comes up. And yet he hasn't done so by the time of the second Avengers film. Ever wonder if perhaps there's a reason why not?



He said it himself, he has trust issues, plus he like being Iron Man to much to share, but you would think he could build in overrides.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Plus, not everyone would feel comfy in the armor.  Not just the Hulk...Black Widow might not care for it.  Though Thor might kit up a bit more himself, he might find the power armor not to his liking.

To be sure, as one of Mavel's 3 smartest human scientists- with Reed Richards and Doctor Victor Von Doom rounding out that triad- he sure could supply them with gizmos that would help out in some form.


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## delericho (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Plus, not everyone would feel comfy in the armor.  Not just the Hulk...Black Widow might not care for it.  Though Thor might kit up a bit more himself, he might find the power armor not to his liking.




And Cap, and Hawkeye - both of whom rely heavily on mobility, and wouldn't be helped with being loaded down with armour and advanced tech they don't know how to use. And if Hulk does indeed change size as he gets angrier, an ever-more constricting set of armour would be a mixed blessing at best.

So that's a clean sweep, really.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Those  same trust issues would probably prevent him from upgrading The Vision, at least post-Ultron...

Hey, speaking of The Vision, does anyone know if they're going to include Wonder Man in the cinematic universe?  

Regardless, he would provide the Avengers with another heavy hitter who, while he can't fly under his own power, does not need to breathe and does have a little rocket belt...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Other wildcards in the Marvel Universe that work in their favor- sometimes quite heavily- and could pop up:

1) the Ultimate Nullifier
2) the Cosmic Cube
3) Captain Universe
4) the Pheonix force
5) Soul Gems/The Infinity Gauntlet
6) Kang's Time Travel Platform


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Hand of Evil said:


> He said it himself, he has trust issues, plus he like being Iron Man to much to share, but you would think he could build in overrides.




He does this in the comics for Spider Man at one point. And Stark builds in overrides, because he does have trust issues..  And, I'd have to go re-read, but if I recall correctly, Peter is not an idiot and hacks an override of the overrides...

We can hack together an answer that's actually pretty simple, based on the Spider Man example, and the problems James Rhodes had when wearing the armor - armor has to be made explicitly for an individual (the control systems cause issues for the wearer long-term otherwise), and while armor is an improvement for a basic human, it isn't necessarily so for a superhuman.  Armor wont make the Hulk stronger, or Captain America fight better, or Spider Man more agile - those abilities are already beyond what his armor can do.  In general, for superhumans it is not easy to make the armor not get in the way of what the character can already do.


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Gardner vs Cat and C'hp vs Truck are 2 of my least favorite bits of writing in DC history.




Yes, and I think the "One Day More" arc for Spider Man is hooey as well as his taking the registration-side in the Marvel Civil War,  but I have to live with it.  It's in the canon, sir.  Deal with it


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## Umbran (Apr 30, 2015)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> AFAIK, only 2 characters from The Avengers- Thor and Iron Man- have ever achieved escape velocity on their own.  Hulk almost did...but his oxygen needs made him pass out.




Of the core characters in the movies?  I believe you are correct.  And for Iron Man, 'on his own' is "in a suit of armor he designed for the purpose".  His typical armor can't manage it.

Of the extended Avengers lineup - Monica Rambeau (who was working under the name "Captain Marvel" while with the Avengers), could turn herself into anything in the electromagnetic spectrum, and move at the speed of light.  There are probably others in the list - but it isn't a common ability for Marvel characters.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Yes, and I think the "One Day More" arc for Spider Man is hooey as well as his taking the registration-side in the Marvel Civil War,  but I have to live with it.  It's in the canon, sir.  Deal with it



Yep, Marvel's writers can be just as bad as DC's, no doubt.  Remember when Electro figured out Spider-Man could climb walls because of static electricity?  Or when Spidey took down Firelord in 1-on-1 combat?

Oy.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 30, 2015)

Umbran said:


> Of the core characters in the movies?  I believe you are correct.  And for Iron Man, 'on his own' is "in a suit of armor he designed for the purpose".  His typical armor can't manage it.
> 
> Of the extended Avengers lineup - Monica Rambeau (who was working under the name "Captain Marvel" while with the Avengers), could turn herself into anything in the electromagnetic spectrum, and move at the speed of light.  There are probably others in the list - but it isn't a common ability for Marvel characters.




I had forgotten her short tenure in the Avengers.  She'd be a good one for the movies, though- good backstory and a LOT of abilities unusual for a Marvel character.


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## Hand of Evil (May 1, 2015)

Now, money wise movies, Avengers would win at the box office.


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