# "Better TV/Movies Than They Have Any Right To Be"



## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 17, 2021)

This was mentioned in the Wandavision thread by @Umbran when the Despicable Me movies came up, stating that they are "better movies than they have any right to be". This got me thinking about other movies and/or TV shows that would fit into this category. This thread is to discuss/(possibly debate) other examples, talk about what makes a movie/show qualify for this designation, and so on. A lot of examples that come to mind seem to be animated, but there are a few examples that I can think of that aren't animated. 

Here are some examples that I believe qualify (if you disagree with any of these examples, let me know why below):

Despicable Me (the example that started this discussion)
Megamind
Kung Fu Panda
Shrek
Phineas and Ferb
Napoleon Dynamite
Monty Python and the Holy Grail
Parks and Recreation
I feel like quite a few Pixar movies qualify, but I can't seem to think of specific ones. Possibly Toy Story (or some of the sequels), Cars, or Monsters Inc (maybe Onward or Finding Dory). 
Any thoughts?


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## TwoSix (Mar 17, 2021)

I'd be looking at things where the initial concept sounds either flat-out bad, or deeply unoriginal.  Bonus points if the actual title is laughably bad.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer - probably the Ur-text of weird concept and terrible title becoming a pantheon show.

Breaking Bad - high school teacher gets cancer and cooks meth, starring the dad from Malcolm in the Middle, didn't seem like a candidate for all-time great show.

The Office (American) - remake of an all-time British comedy, but adapted to American broadcast standards and starring the guy from 40-Year-Old Virgin seems primed to fail, instead becomes comedy classic.

Crazy Ex-Girlfriend - CW show with terrible title, but is actually brutally dark musical comedy about mental illness and one of the best shows of the last decade.


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## payn (Mar 17, 2021)

Pitch Black


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## TwoSix (Mar 17, 2021)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> [*]I feel like quite a few Pixar movies qualify, but I can't seem to think of specific ones. Possibly Toy Story (or some of the sequels), Cars, or Monsters Inc (maybe Onward or Finding Dory).



I'd say Pixar's critically acclaimed run in the mid-late '00s all qualify.  Ratatouille has a talking rat who cooks?  Up is a really old guy who makes his house fly with balloons?!  Wall-E is a robot who shovels garbage on post-apocalyptic Earth and doesn't talk?!?


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## Umbran (Mar 17, 2021)

_The Orville._ Because, really, Seth MacFarlane does a decent sci-fi show? Who saw that coming?

_Santa Clarita Diet_.  Because "my mom's a suburbanite zombie" shouldn't work any more than cheerleader vampire hunter.

Currently, I'd say Syfy's _Resident Alien_ fits the bill as well.  

As a by-the-way, _Shrek_ and _Legally Blond_ also make better Broadway musicals than you'd expect.


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## Nebulous (Mar 17, 2021)

The original Robocop.  I remember seeing the trailer in the 1980s and thinking, what a stupid stupid name for a movie.  Turns out it is one of the best sci fi action movies ever and is still fun to watch today. It has aged extremely well and has a very nuanced story about what it means to be a human.


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## billd91 (Mar 17, 2021)

I can't help but feel there's a little bit of ageism at work in some of the examples. "Stuff made for kids" doesn't have to be bad from an adult perspective. Kids' programming isn't all Disney sitcoms (which generally *are *terrible). Disney animated features, for example, tend to be relatively high quality even for adults - much better than their aforementioned sitcoms on the Disney Channel. And as far as Pixar goes, I think they've made enough of a reputation for themselves that the opposite expectation is probably more appropriate - that the default Pixar movie is expected to be excellent - simply because it's being done by Pixar.


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## payn (Mar 17, 2021)

Nebulous said:


> The original Robocop.  I remember seeing the trailer in the 1980s and thinking, what a stupid stupid name for a movie.  Turns out it is one of the best sci fi action movies ever and is still fun to watch today. It has aged extremely well and has a very nuanced story about what it means to be a human.



Thats the Paul Verhoeven magic!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 17, 2021)

Besides the aforementioned _Pitch Black, Robocop _and _The Orville_:

_Kung Fu Hustle
Parker Lewis Can’t Lose
Evil
Prodigal Son
The Terminator 
The Shining _(TV adaptation)


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## Umbran (Mar 17, 2021)

Oh... _Galavant_.  But only if you like musicals in the first place.

_The Good Place_ shouldn't have worked. A comedy... about moral philosophy?


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## Ryujin (Mar 17, 2021)

Umbran said:


> _The Orville._ Because, really, Seth MacFarlane does a decent sci-fi show? Who saw that coming?
> 
> _Santa Clarita Diet_.  Because "my mom's a suburbanite zombie" shouldn't work any more than cheerleader vampire hunter.
> 
> ...



I'd agree on "Resident Alien." i think that I've mentioned here, before, what i think the basic concept reflects. Pitch Meeting: "What if we remade 'Northern Exposure', but swap out the New York City doctor for an alien? BRILLIANT!"

I could think of any number of web series that would qualify, but will only name one indie film; "Project London." It has absolutely nothing to do with London. It stars a bunch of unknowns. It was filmed in the Seattle area, on a shoestring budget, and all of the special effects were done by dozens of volunteers. The only outside funding was for distribution. (If you're at all interested it has since been made free to watch and is available on Youtube.)

"The Specials" - James Gunn's first superhero film, made in 2000. He even plays a part in it (Minute Man. No, that's MINUTE Man!) It's a day in the life of the 7th best superhero team in the US. You would recognize most of the faces in it, but no one is an "A" lister (arguably perhaps Rob Lowe, when he isn't hawking Atkins Bars) It has made it to the list of my all-time favourite movies, though most people have never heard of it.


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## payn (Mar 17, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I'd agree on "Resident Alien." i think that I've mentioned here, before, what i think the basic concept reflects. Pitch Meeting: "What if we remade 'Northern Exposure', but swap out the New York City doctor for an alien? BRILLIANT!"
> 
> I could think of any number of web series that would qualify, but will only name one indie film; "Project London." It has absolutely nothing to do with London. It stars a bunch of unknowns. It was filmed in the Seattle area, on a shoestring budget, and all of the special effects were done by dozens of volunteers. The only outside funding was for distribution. (If you're at all interested it has since been made free to watch and is available on Youtube.)
> 
> "The Specials" - James Gunn's first superhero film, made in 2000. He even plays a part in it (Minute Man. No, that's MINUTE Man!) It's a day in the life of the 7th best superhero team in the US. You would recognize most of the faces in it, but no one is an "A" lister (arguably perhaps Rob Lowe, when he isn't hawking Atkins Bars) It has made ti to the list of my all-time favourite movies, though most people have never heard of it.



The Specials is amazing!


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 17, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Buffy the Vampire Slayer - probably the Ur-text of weird concept and terrible title becoming a pantheon show.




The series would never have existed if not for the awesome movie that came first. Peewee Herman as a vampire and that super corny death scene they gave him.   lol

As for the topic, a lot of firsts in a series of movies can count for this. No one saw what the success of Ironman would lead to, or if the movie would even be any good.


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## Ryujin (Mar 17, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The series would never have existed if not for the awesome movie that came first. Peewee Herman as a vampire and that super corny death scene they gave him.   lol
> 
> As for the topic, a lot of firsts in a series of movies can count for this. No one saw what the success of Ironman would lead to, or if the movie would even be any good.



A true classic.



			https://i.gifer.com/6Mug.gif


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## Zardnaar (Mar 18, 2021)

I think Terminator and Robocop aren't to absurd for sci fi pitches. 

 Married With Children. Think about sitcoms in the 80's and before the late 90's. Every character is a horrible person. 

 Red Dwarf. Sitcom set in space millions of years in the future with a sentient cat.


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## Morrus (Mar 18, 2021)

_Cobra Kai_ was that for me. On paper, it sounds _awful_. Yet it's so good!


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## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> I think Terminator and Robocop aren't to absurd for sci fi pitches.
> 
> Married With Children. Think about sitcoms in the 80's and before the late 90's. Every character is a horrible person.
> 
> Red Dwarf. Sitcom set in space millions of years in the future with a sentient cat.



I think that "Married: With Children" was lightning in a bottle. Other shows tried very similar models and failed miserably. For example does anyone remember "Unhappily Ever After"? I'm betting not despite the fact that it starred redheaded bombshell Nikki Cox.


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## Mallus (Mar 18, 2021)

Nebulous said:


> The original Robocop.  I remember seeing the trailer in the 1980s and thinking, what a stupid stupid name for a movie.  Turns out it is one of the best sci fi action movies ever and is still fun to watch today. It has aged extremely well and has a very nuanced story about what it means to be a human.



I’ll see your Robocop (which is one of the all-time great SF action movies, plus a wonderful satire of... well, America) and raise you Demolition Man, which qualifies for the thread, I do believe.


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## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2021)

Mallus said:


> I’ll see your Robocop (which is one of the all-time great SF action movies, plus a wonderful satire of... well, America) and raise you Demolition Man, which qualifies for the thread, I do believe.



A far better use of Stallone than that horrible "Judge Dredd" in name only movie.


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## MarkB (Mar 18, 2021)

Mallus said:


> I’ll see your Robocop (which is one of the all-time great SF action movies, plus a wonderful satire of... well, America) and raise you Demolition Man, which qualifies for the thread, I do believe.






Ryujin said:


> A far better use of Stallone than that horrible "Judge Dredd" in name only movie.



In many ways it was the movie Judge Dredd should have been. Its take on the future shared the same sardonic humour that was present in the original comics, and Stallone's performance demonstrated that he could easily have pulled off the role, making his actual performance as Judge Dredd even more tragic.


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## MarkB (Mar 18, 2021)

I'll add Firefly to the list. "A Western in space" sounded like a rather anachronistic concept when I first heard about it, but they nailed it thanks to a great cast of well-realised characters.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 18, 2021)

MarkB said:


> I'll add Firefly to the list. "A Western in space" sounded like a rather anachronistic concept when I first heard about it, but they nailed it thanks to a great cast of well-realised characters.



The same basic pitch also got us the original _Star Trek._


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## Zardnaar (Mar 18, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I think that "Married: With Children" was lightning in a bottle. Other shows tried very similar models and failed miserably. For example does anyone remember "Unhappily Ever After"? I'm betting not despite the fact that it starred redheaded bombshell Nikki Cox.




 It was clever and had the right cast to pull it off.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 18, 2021)

billd91 said:


> I can't help but feel there's a little bit of ageism at work in some of the examples. "Stuff made for kids" doesn't have to be bad from an adult perspective. Kids' programming isn't all Disney sitcoms (which generally *are *terrible). Disney animated features, for example, tend to be relatively high quality even for adults - much better than their aforementioned sitcoms on the Disney Channel. And as far as Pixar goes, I think they've made enough of a reputation for themselves that the opposite expectation is probably more appropriate - that the default Pixar movie is expected to be excellent - simply because it's being done by Pixar.



I get that, but I would like to point out that though "stuff made for kids" does not have to be bad from an adult perspective, kids TV/movies get away with being bad more than TV/movies for adults. Kids will watch nearly anything, adults are much more particular/picky. 

That's why it's often surprising when "kids movies/TV" end up being very well made, especially when the basis of the movie/TV show sounds like an awful idea. Kung Fu Pana is just what it says it is, it's about a talking Panda that does Kung Fu. Despicable Me is about a stereotypical mad scientist that adopts 3 kids. Megamind is where the most stereotypically over-the-top villain "defeats" not-Superman and gets everything he wanted. The main character of Shrek is a swamp-dwelling ogre that goes on a quest to rescue a princess, who then falls in love with him. 

The basis of these movies sound dumb, and being "kids movies" means that our overall expectations of them are lower than that of typical movies that adults watch. That's why they're commonly mentioned here. It's not ageism, even if there is commonly a correlation here.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 18, 2021)

Mallus said:


> I’ll see your Robocop (which is one of the all-time great SF action movies, plus a wonderful satire of... well, America) and raise you Demolition Man, which qualifies for the thread, I do believe.




Denis Leary made that movie with the way he can deliver a line.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 18, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> A far better use of Stallone than that horrible "Judge Dredd" in name only movie.




Depends on your tastes. I much prefer the Dredd movie with Karl Urban to the Stallone version.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 18, 2021)

Some comedies:

_Who’s the Man
Hollywood Shuffle
And God Spoke
Airplane _


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 18, 2021)

Oh!

_Dragonslayer
Tremors_


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## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The same basic pitch also got us the original _Star Trek._



To be precise, it was pitched as a "Wagon Train to the stars." Wagon Train was a western TV show that ran from 1957 to 1964, and was hugely popular.


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## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Depends on your tastes. I much prefer the Dredd movie with Karl Urban to the Stallone version.



The Stallone Dredd movie was terrible, as I mentioned. Karl Urban took the source material seriously and the movie did one of the main things that defined the original; if Dredd didn't have his helmet on, you only saw him in silhouette. You never see his whole face.


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## Nebulous (Mar 18, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> A far better use of Stallone than that horrible "Judge Dredd" in name only movie.



The Dredd movie with Karl Urban is 1000x better than the Stallone one.  It's a shame that wasn't turned into a franchise, it should have been.


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## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2021)

Nebulous said:


> The Dredd movie with Karl Urban is 1000x better than the Stallone one.  It's a shame that wasn't turned into a franchise, it should have been.



Sometimes a thing is special, because it's unique. Making two more movies added nothing at all to "The Matrix."


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## Umbran (Mar 18, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> A far better use of Stallone than that horrible "Judge Dredd" in name only movie.




You want to see the best use of Stallone ever?  Find _Oscar_ - a 1991 film in which Sylvester Stallone plays Angelo 'Snaps' Provolone, a Depression-era mobster trying to buy his way into the banking business so he can go straight, to fulfill the dying wish of his father, and what happens in his house the day he meets with his new business partners.

Before you think this is a serious film - it was directly by John Landis.  And it follows the basic forms of Renaissance _commedia dell'arte_ improv comedy.


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## embee (Mar 18, 2021)

I find that quite a few shows that don't make it to a sophomore season (or even have a full run of their first season) tend to be pretty high quality. 

From a police procedural point of view, while "The Wire" won universal acclaim, it wouldn't have existed if not for its predecessor, "Homicide: Life On The Streets." This show was from the same creator, also set in Baltimore, and featured an amazing ensemble cast headed by Andre Braugher, anchored by the recently departed Yaphet Kotto, and filled out by the likes of Melissa Leo, Richard Belzer, and Ned Beatty. If you can find it streaming somewhere, the first season features an arc about a murdered girl named Adena Watson with writing, direction, and acting of a calibre rarely seen on TV. 

From a serial drama standpoint, "Terriers." This is a serialized comic drama starring the criminally underrated Donal Logue, as a private investigator. It's not unlike "Breaking Bad" as done by the Coen Brothers. 

From a scifi standpoint, I'm probably alone in this but "Alien3." I actually liked it. I enjoyed the way that Charles Dance's character mirrors that of Dallas - the supposed protagonist who gets killed at the midpoint. And while it is a very slow burn, especially when compared to a James Cameron shoot 'em up, it provides a way to end both Ripley's and the xenomorph's story the way it really should end. 

And, for the greatest movie that should be terrible but, instead, is great, well the answer is simple: Star Wars.

An homage to old Buster Crabbe serials that is passably directed using a corny and clunky script, starring an unknown actor of middling talent, backed up by a great actor who was only in it for the paycheck and an old B-horror movie star hamming up his lines, all in service of a glorified fairy tale about a farm-boy saving a princess from the clutches of an evil wizard, where fully half of the dialogue is overdubbed and you can only tell who is speaking by their gesticulating, and with a half-baked story structure that had to be salvaged in the editing room. 

Star Wars should not work.


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## Mallus (Mar 18, 2021)

Alien3 is a really good science fiction film and a fitting sequel to the original. I suspect the main thing people hold against it is it's not the film they wanted to see after Cameron's war movie. 

It occurs to me the textbook example of 'better than it has any right being' is Casablanca. What should have been a solid wartime melodrama with a good cast, sharp writing, and kinda nonsense plotting turned out to be one of Hollywood's most beloved movies. For several decades running.

(it's still my favorite film)


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## payn (Mar 18, 2021)

Mank. Seriously, its good check it out.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 18, 2021)

_Terriers _and _Homicide  _were brilliant shows.

_Monk _& _Psych_ would be two I’d add that were better than their ideas would indicate.  I think the acting and scriptwriting really elevated shows that you’d think would fail.

But one that DID fail was the short-lived _War Next Door._  Premise: live-action “Spy Vs Spy” action-comedy between retired super-agent and his arch-nemesis in suburban USA.  Show was funny, well written, well cast.  I don’t know that it’s entire firs season aired.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 18, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Sometimes a thing is special, because it's unique. Making two more movies added nothing at all to "The Matrix."




I am guessing you are going to hate Matrix 4 when it comes out.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Mar 18, 2021)

I'm going to add another: Monk. 

The show, at first, sounded like it could never work for me. There are already a ton of detective/crime-solving shows out there, and having the main character be someone with a severe case of OCD sounds like the set-up for a joke. (An OCD ex-detective, a blonde single mother, and an aloof captain of the police force walk into a crime scene. . . .) 

I think the best thing about this show is that they don't play OCD as a joke or a miraculous super-power. OCD is very harmful, often coming after severe trauma to a person. The show shows how OCD both helps Adrian Monk solve crimes, but also prevents him from having his dream job and many other things that "normal" people take for granted.


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## payn (Mar 18, 2021)

Likely not to be a hit here, with this crowd, but Showtime's Billions. A hedge fund manager playing cat and mouse with the DA of Southern District New York. A master class in exposition.


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## Dire Bare (Mar 18, 2021)

Mallus said:


> I’ll see your Robocop (which is one of the all-time great SF action movies, plus a wonderful satire of... well, America) and raise you Demolition Man, which qualifies for the thread, I do believe.



Is Demolition Man good though? It's certainly enjoyable . . . can a film be not-good yet enjoyable? If so, that's Demolition Man!


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## aco175 (Mar 18, 2021)

Starship Troopers and even Battlefield Earth.  Maybe this is just wishing.  

South Park- mostly since they treat everyone as targets of humor and are not shy about it.  Most of the other cartoons I do not find funny.


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## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am guessing you are going to hate Matrix 4 when it comes out.



My understanding was there was going to be a reboot, rather than another sequel. Either way yes, I'm likely out.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 18, 2021)

My expectations for Matrix 4 are rock bottom. It's not like part 2 and 3 were that good either. 

 Recently rewatched Aliens and Predators franchises which got added to disney+. Liked 3 and Resurrection.

 Also did The Wire a month or two ago. That show is so so good. 

 Firefly+Serenity rewatch was also great. 

 The Wire was very different at the time but came close to 99's where things were a lot more gritty and dark anyway in pop culture.


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## Deset Gled (Mar 18, 2021)

I'd like to throw some Roger Corman into the mix.  He makes schlock.  It's supposed to be schlock.  It's made for the purpose of being schlock.  And yet, every once in while, it turns out amazing.  I suggest:

- Galaxy of Terror.  Special effects by a young James Cameron.  Sid Haig and Robert Englund in the cast.  A legit scary premise.  WAY better than I expected.

- Death Race 2000.  Classic sci-fi story.  David Carradine and Sylvester Stalone.  Social commentary that ages so much better than anyone could have expected.

- Dementia 13.  Roger Corman with a baby Francis Ford Coppola.  Not my favorite horror movie by any means.  But you can totally see Coppola's Oscar level directing shine through the low budget.


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## Ryujin (Mar 18, 2021)

Somewhat ironically I think that the old schlock "Death Race 2000" is overall better than the more recent entries, starring folks like Jason Statham. The 2008 film lost something in its move to straight action, from political satire, in much the same way that both the new "Robocop" and "Total Recall" did.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 18, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Recently rewatched Aliens and Predators franchises which got added to disney+. Liked 3 and Resurrection.




Be careful not to confuse the folks in the US who do not have access to that.  lol

Star is the Disney+ section for normal, adult-aimed movies that is only available outside the US.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 18, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Be careful not to confuse the folks in the US who do not have access to that.  lol
> 
> Star is the Disney+ section for normal, adult-aimed movies that is only available outside the US.




 Oh didn't know that. Star has lots of good stuff on it. Probably do X-men this weekend.

 Die Hard 4. Way better than expected might be the second best one maybe third. 

 Trilogies often work, number 4 often eh.


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## payn (Mar 19, 2021)

Die Hard 4? Yeeeeesh...


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## Ulfgeir (Mar 19, 2021)

Blues Brothers. Getting the band together again to make money so they can pay an orphanages taxes. It should be boring as hell, instead it is a masterclass in comedy.


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## Lanefan (Mar 19, 2021)

Better than they have any right to be:

_Jumanji_ (the Dwayne Johnson version, never saw the original).  Dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers premise but it flat-out works.  The sequel's also not bad.

_Pirates of the Caribbean_ franchise, in particular movies 1 and 3.  They pulled all this goodness and hilarity out of a theme park ride???

Just about the entire Marvel universe so far, from _Iron Man_ on down.  There's been a few bits that lived down to expectations e.g. roughly the whole second half of _Agents of Shield_, but in general the whole lot has been unexpectedly excellent - even _Agent Carter_, which other people tend not to like but I'm not other people: I thought it was wonderful.


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## Mercurius (Mar 19, 2021)

_Curb Your Enthusiasm. _An insufferable rich guy, surrounded by other insufferable rich guys, getting into the same type of situations again and again, with largely improvised dialogue. Yet it is one of the greatest comedies shows of all time.

_Rocky. _An actor with limited range in a very cliche story, yet it remains one of the most heart-felt films in cinematic history.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Mar 19, 2021)

The social commentary and satire is a big part of why it's still a better watch than the po-faced Statham remakes. That and this exchange:

*Special agent:* You know, Mr. VeTurbo, as a representative of Mr. President's government, I happen to hold the power of life and death.

*Machine Gun Joe VeTurbo:* Yeah? Well I happen to hold the clam sauce.



Deset Gled said:


> - Death Race 2000.  Classic sci-fi story.  David Carradine and Sylvester Stalone.  Social commentary that ages so much better than anyone could have expected.




I would posit the original Night of the Living Dead as being better than it had any right to be. Budget of $114,000. Romero had never made a full-length feature film before. Filmed in Northwestern Pennsylvania. And yet it has arguably had one of the biggest impacts on pop culture of any film. It had a total box office earning of $30 million. And it is still incredibly good, incredibly relevant.


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## embee (Mar 19, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Is Demolition Man good though? It's certainly enjoyable . . . can a film be not-good yet enjoyable? If so, that's Demolition Man!



Most Wesley Snipes movies are, from an artistic standpoint, bad. However, from a pure popcorn movie enjoyment standpoint, most Wesley Snipes movies are extremely fun. 

Demolition Man is a stupid movie. Mind-numbingly stupid. But it's a fun movie to watch. In no small part because of Wesley Snipes.

Blade is a very enjoyable comic book movie. The writing is complete garbage but Wesley Snipes and Donal Logue brighten the entire endeavor. Blade II is fun but also stupid. But it has Wesley Snipes delivering a daywalker flying elbow drop which by itself redeems the entire movie. Blade III is pure garbage. But it's still not utterly terrible provided you are adequately high. 

White Men Can't Jump is a truly fun movie. It's a relic of its time but it's a fun movie to watch. Passenger 57 is a pretty standard 90s action movie of the same calibre of Executive Decision or Under Siege 2. But without Snipes, it would have been unbearable. 

If Snipes is in a movie, I know two things about that movie: the script is beyond stupid and it will be fun to watch.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 19, 2021)

Just rewatched Blade2 last week. Fun movie lol. 

 Demolition Man still fun. 

 Yeah they're stupid but entertaining enough. Haven't seen Passenger 57 since 94/95 but it's fun.

 Snipes is past his best before date but when he was good his movies were fun.


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## Ryujin (Mar 19, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Just rewatched Blade2 last week. Fun movie lol.
> 
> Demolition Man still fun.
> 
> ...



Maybe you need to see "Coming 2 America" then


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## Stalker0 (Mar 19, 2021)

I wouldn't put any of the pixar movies on the list by default. Kids movies can have wild and crazy concepts and still work really well, and they aren't that outrageous compared to the successful Disney movies before them.

I would pick:

Orville: This looked terrible when I saw the trailers. Star Trek with toilet humor? And yet...this show has the heart of Star Trek more than any show since Voyager to me.

Rocky: Its an action movie about a bum who is a bad boxer, one that Stallone scrapped together on nickel and dimes, and it launched him to stardom.

The 100: Ignoring the horrendous finale season, the 100 was the CW show that broke the CW mold for me. I go in expecting Teen drama in space, and yet I'm hit with the impacts of genocide, real life or death consequences for the main characters, dealing with suicidal depression...holy crap this show had some deep stuff!

Riverdale: This is one of those very polarizing shows. Some people completely deplore this show, but for those who like it, it should not work, its crazy....bonkers really, with a plot that looks like three writers got black out drunk in a room one night and then picked up the pieces of the stuff they thought was too out there. And yet....its just works somehow, and its insanely engaging. Its very hard to explain.


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## Mercurius (Mar 20, 2021)

_The Dark Knight: _Mediocre director, no-name composer who doesn't know how to make a moving score, a bunch of poor actors, and boring "superhero" and villain with no actual powers, yet it still managed to be OK, I guess.


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## Imaculata (Mar 23, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> _Jumanji_ (the Dwayne Johnson version, never saw the original).  Dumb-as-a-bag-of-hammers premise but it flat-out works.  The sequel's also not bad.




You owe it to yourself to watch the original. The CGI may be a bit dated now, but it is a fantastic movie. Robin Williams is great in it, and the movie has a lot of heart. In comparison, the Dwayne Johnson movie is a lot weaker. Not terrible, but it relies too much on just its gimmick. What especially makes the original so good, is that the problems created by the game affect the real world, and they keep adding up. The longer you play it, the more chaos the game creates in real life. It only goes away if you finish the game.

The sequel Zathura is also alright. It also has a lot of heart, but the chaos is toned down considerably.


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## rgoodbb (Mar 23, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Oh!
> 
> _Dragonslayer
> Tremors_



Yeah. Tremors was ridiculous and great. It had no right to be an enjoyable movie at all. But it was.


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## Imaculata (Mar 23, 2021)

I love Dragonslayer and Tremors! Dragonslayer has one of my favourite dragons in cinema, and it is where the go-motion technique was perfected. 

And Tremors is just so much fun. It is a horror-light film. It also contains one of my favourite camera tricks: 


It goes by so fast, your eyes don't even register it as a camera trick. That's a whip pan from live action to a miniature, to make it seem like the actors and the miniature are in the same room.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 23, 2021)

The rec room line is GOLD!


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## Imaculata (Mar 23, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> The rec room line is GOLD!




Indeed. Plus that comedic pan to the gun rack is one of my favorite visual gags in a movie. When you see this movie for the first time, you are lead to believe that Burt and his wife are done for. But as soon as they reveal the huge rack full of guns, the tone of the scene, and the expected outcome, change instantly. It is just a wonderful example of subvertion of expectation in a movie. It really is quite clever.


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## Lanefan (Mar 23, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> You owe it to yourself to watch the original. The CGI may be a bit dated now, but it is a fantastic movie. Robin Williams is great in it, and the movie has a lot of heart.



Thing is, that'd mean watching Robin Williams for an hour and a half, and he's one actor who - on screen* - has just never appealed to me in the least for whatever reason.

* - off-screen, as the voice of the genie in Aladdin, he was great.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 23, 2021)

Lanefan said:


> Thing is, that'd mean watching Robin Williams for an hour and a half, and he's one actor who - on screen* - has just never appealed to me in the least for whatever reason.
> 
> * - off-screen, as the voice of the genie in Aladdin, he was great.




So you have never cared for any of his serious work either? He even played a credible villain a time or two.


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## Lanefan (Mar 23, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> So you have never cared for any of his serious work either? He even played a credible villain a time or two.



Nope, sorry.


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## Imaculata (Mar 23, 2021)

Jumanji is one of the movies where he shows a lot more of his range as an actor. The movie is grounded by his performance. Amongst all the crazyness, he lends a more serious tone in several key scenes.


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## Ryujin (Mar 24, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Jumanji is one of the movies where he shows a lot more of his range as an actor. The movie is grounded by his performance. Amongst all the crazyness, he lends a more serious tone in several key scenes.



He was a stand-up comedy genius and I love most of his movies, but I'd have never wanted to direct him.


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## Imaculata (Mar 24, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> He was a stand-up comedy genius and I love most of his movies, but I'd have never wanted to direct him.




Well, to be more specific. I think he really shows some of his acting chops in the following scenes. Spoilers for those who haven't seen Jumanji.



Spoiler



When he explains to the kids the horrors that the game contains, and warns them not to take it lightly.

When he finds out his father loved him very much, and ran his own business into the ground trying to find his son.



Especially in the latter scene he gives a powerful performance.

I also like his work in *What Dreams May Come*, which is a polarizing movie that a lot of people seem to have very strong opinions about.

He's also great in *Mrs Doubtfire*, another movie that deserves special mention for being a lot better than it should be. You see, my parents had a divorce shortly before Mrs Doubtfire came out. As a young kid it is very difficult to understand why your parents can't be together any more. But Mrs Doubtfire is able to be honest about it, and explain it in a beautiful way, without a cliché Hollywood ending. At the end of the movie, the divorced parents don't get back together. And that's often how it goes in real life.


In one of the final scenes of the movie, Robin Williams basically directly addresses kids watching the movie, and it is so well written. 

It's a shame that arguably one of the best acted scenes in the movie was cut:


To any kid who has ever experienced their parents going through a divorce, this is exactly what it is like. Both actors deliver a fantastic performance here. And I also love how the scene is directed, starting from the point of view of the kids, then to a view down the stairs, and then a close up. It really is a shame we lost Robin Williams so early, since he was a lot more than just a comedian, as this scene shows.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 26, 2021)

Robin Williams never did it for me either. 
 I don't dislike him or anything just a meh.


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## Older Beholder (Mar 26, 2021)

The 21 Jump Street movie was surprisingly not terrible and I'll re-watch it anytime it comes on TV.


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## HawaiiSteveO (Mar 26, 2021)

Best cop show EVER, on Netflix (Canada) and itunes etc. Season 6 out now, have to wait - sigh!

Crazy twists and turns, tension, uncomfortable storylines, great acting. Watched a few times.

Bent coppers!

BBC One - Line of Duty


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 27, 2021)

HawaiiSteveO said:


> Best cop show EVER, on Netflix (Canada) and itunes etc. Season 6 out now, have to wait - sigh!
> 
> Crazy twists and turns, tension, uncomfortable storylines, great acting. Watched a few times.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% LoD is a damn good show, but I don’t that has the right ingredients for this thread.


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## Paul Farquhar (Mar 27, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I agree 100% LoD is a damn good show, but I don’t that has the right ingredients for this thread.



Yup, as the BBC's flagship drama it is _supposed_ to be quality.


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## Gradine (Mar 27, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Riverdale: This is one of those very polarizing shows. Some people completely deplore this show, but for those who like it, it should not work, its crazy....bonkers really, with a plot that looks like three writers got black out drunk in a room one night and then picked up the pieces of the stuff they thought was too out there. And yet....its just works somehow, and its insanely engaging. Its very hard to explain.



The one reason this show works is that there is no status quo. The pacing is... frankly, intoxicating is the word I'd use. And they always, ALWAYS escalate.

Archie Season 1: I have to choose between football and my music. Also, I'm sleeping with my music teacher, so that's drama

Archie Season 3: I just broke out of juvie during an illicit underground prisoner boxing match, and I have to flee to Canada because my girlfriend's drug kingpin father wants me dead but I just got mauled by a freaking BEAR

It should be noted that Archie's arcs are almost always the least important part of the show at any given time. The rest of Season 3 is basically "what if the D&D satanic panic was real?" And that's not even including the cult/organ farm.

This show is the best kind of buckwild. It's perfect.  It makes no sense, nothing makes any sense, what the hell are they even doing? It's perfect.

Dear CW: Where's my gritty reboot of the Hex Girls?


Imaculata said:


> I also like his work in *What Dreams May Come*, which is a polarizing movie that a lot of people seem to have very strong opinions about.



Robin Williams was an incredible talent and the world is a significantly worse place without him in it. Insomnia is an underrated little title that shows off his darker chops. That said, WDMC is quite possibly the worst film I've ever scene, and thinking about anything in it makes me beyond angry. And the acting, directing, and especially design and cinematography at all top notch too. It's just... they make so many wrong choices along the way. Ugh.


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## Gradine (Mar 27, 2021)

As for the OP, one movies springs immediately to mind: *Real Steel*

Rock'm Sock'm Robots: The Movie? Jerkass father figure and precocious child on a road trip. Like, even if the robot fights are cool, which 9/10 times is going to be phoned in CGI abominations in movies like these, the rest of the movie should be an utter tedious disaster. But they decided to make a good movie. The fights are awesome. Hugh Jackman + smartass kid is something we now know is a winning combination, but it was a gamble back then and darn if they didn't both come off as charming as hell


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## DammitVictor (Mar 27, 2021)

*Lucifer*. We're going to adapt Neil Gaiman's comics about divine forces for television? And turn it into a buddy cop procedural?


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## MGibster (Mar 28, 2021)

_Role Models_ (2008) starring Stiffler from _American Pie _and Paul Rudd about two energy drink salesman sentenced to community service for some offenses. That community takes the form of each one of them becoming mentors to two boys in a Big Brother type organization. I'm not saying it's a great movie, but it was much better than it had any right to be and Jane Lynch was just delightful as always.


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## MGibster (Mar 28, 2021)

Dire Bare said:


> Is Demolition Man good though? It's certainly enjoyable . . . can a film be not-good yet enjoyable? If so, that's Demolition Man!



I tend to judge movies based on what they're trying to accomplish.  _Demolition Man_ tried to be a good action movie with some comedic elements (the three shells) and they absolutely nailed it.  _Cobra_ (1986) also starring Sylvester Stallone is an action movie and it's just plain terrible. It's not even good by action movie standards.


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## Undrave (Mar 28, 2021)

Speaking of Robin Williams, I'm surprised *Hook* worked so well! Not the best movie ever but it's still flled with the same sort of charm an animated movie would have. I'd rather have that kind of live action take on classic characters than whatever Disney's doing lately...



Dire Bare said:


> Is Demolition Man good though? It's certainly enjoyable . . . can a film be not-good yet enjoyable? If so, that's Demolition Man!



The term for a movie that's 'not-good yet enjoyable' would be _nanar ._


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Be careful not to confuse the folks in the US who do not have access to that.  lol
> 
> Star is the Disney+ section for normal, adult-aimed movies that is only available outside the US.



So Star is just what you guys get on Hulu??


Gradine said:


> Dear CW: Where's my gritty reboot of the Hex Girls?



Speaking of, it's surprising how many of the Scooby Doo movies are genuine good fun! It's kind of a gamble but the characters are just so archetypical at this point that the movies never have to waste time introduce the Scooby Gang and can just give us a solid cast of secondary character and a fun adventure. *Scooby Doo & KISS : Rock & Roll Mystery* and *Scooby Doo & Batman, The Brave and the Bold* are favorites of mine. I hear *Moon Monster Madness* is excellent too.

And as for something to bring to this...hmm... *Down Periscope*? Kelsey Grammer as a maverick submarine captain? Really?! Rob Schneider's best role somehow?!

How about Thunderbolt Fantasy? A glove-puppet show made in 2016 by masters of the craft from Taiwan written by a Japanese writer responsible for the Fate franchise, and with character design influenced by the Nendoroid company is somehow an AMAZING wuxia franchise?! And can be ridiculously bloody?!

It's mindblowingly good and way more straightforward than Uroboshi's other works. You could easily mine that first season for a DnD adventure, for exemple...


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## Imaculata (Mar 28, 2021)

Undrave said:


> Speaking of Robin Williams, I'm surprised *Hook* worked so well! Not the best movie ever but it's still flled with the same sort of charm an animated movie would have. I'd rather have that kind of live action take on classic characters than whatever Disney's doing lately...




I love Hook, but Dustin Hoffman's performance dominates that movie in my opinion. From the moment he appears and raises that hilarious malevolent grin, you know that he has nailed it. Bob Hoskins is also great as Smee, and I love every scene in which the two are together.


My favourite scene however is when Hook wants Smee to stop him from taking his own life, and Smee is like "Oh, not again!".


Surely there must be a treasure trove of scenes with Dustin Hoffman that ended up on the cuttingroom floor.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Mar 28, 2021)

Undrave said:


> So Star is just what you guys get on Hulu??




Maybe? I have not compared the two and I do not use Hulu. But I think Star is more integrated into Disney+ in international markets, while Hulu is still a fully separate service here.


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## Zardnaar (Mar 28, 2021)

Idk what's on hulu but we have been using Star a lot.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 4, 2021)

Two more for consideration: Dinosaurs and Parker Lewis Can’t Lose.

The first was a blue-collar sitcom that starred dino-muppets.  They tackled all the same kinds of topics as was typical of the better sitcoms...but with dinosaurs.  And they killed off the entire cast for the finale.  Because dinosaurs.

The second was a live-action teen-centric comedy that ventured into cartoon-style absurdist gags.  I mean, one character had essentially invented a tesseract trench coat- pulled a fully functional sub-style periscope out of it once.  It had a security system that involved concealed dobermans.


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## Imaculata (Apr 4, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Two more for consideration: Dinosaurs and Parker Lewis Can’t Lose.




I loved Dinosaurs. It was a technical marvel and often ahead of its time. The way it tackled current day issues was a bit hit or miss. Their gay metaphor in the episode where Robbie decides to be a herbivore gets a bit tangled up. But I love how they ended the show, and got to give special mention to the Totally Hidden Predator tvshow.


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## wicked cool (Apr 7, 2021)

Can I ask what Star is? ive heard of Starz (the home of shows such as outlander)

Certain movies work because of 1 actor stealing the show and going off script. Jim carrey movies probably dont work if he doesn't go off script. robin Williams is the same type of actor (love him or not). Alladin isn't a hit if he isn't as crazy as he is

I would argue The Evil Dead movies are better than they should be due to Bruce Campbell. It probably isn't a big hit if say Bruce willis played the role of ash or pick another actor

I can think of lots of "classic tv" that is better than it should be due an outstanding performance of 1 actor


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## Imaculata (Apr 7, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> I would argue The Evil Dead movies are better than they should be due to Bruce Campbell. It probably isn't a big hit if say Bruce willis played the role of ash or pick another actor




I disagree. While Bruce Campbell is the right actor for the part, I think the success of those movies is thanks to the crazy genius of Sam Raimi, and his team. It certainly helps that Bruce is willing to do just about anything, but what really makes those movies shine is Raimi's crazy direction.


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## payn (Apr 7, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I disagree. While Bruce Campbell is the right actor for the part, I think the success of those movies is thanks to the crazy genius of Sam Raimi, and his team. It certainly helps that Bruce is willing to do just about anything, but what really makes those movies shine is Raimi's crazy direction.



Not just cray direction but Raimi's ingenuity and innovation in film making. He was duck taping cameras to skateboards and using old tape recorders to make sound effects. Back in the 80's guys who made 5 million dollar flicks were like, "how the hell is he doing this for 50K???"


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## Imaculata (Apr 8, 2021)

Indeed. Raimi was a great innovator who used his movies to try out many new camera tricks and techniques in really cheap and innovative ways. I am very excited to see him direct the next Dr Strange movie, because he is exactly the kind of weird genius needed for that film.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 8, 2021)

I didn’t care for the first 2 Evil Dead movies all that much, but I respect that they had to come first in order that the genius of Army of Darkness could be unleashed.


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## Imaculata (Apr 8, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I didn’t care for the first 2 Evil Dead movies all that much, but I respect that they had to come first in order that the genius of Army of Darkness could be unleashed.




Evil Dead 1 hasn't aged well. Evil Dead 2 is basically Evil Dead 1 on steroids, with a big budget and more humor and insanity. 

Army of Darkness is full on comedy, with Raimy dialed to 11. It remains my all time favored movie.

If you woke me up in the middle of the night to watch Army of Darkness, I would say: "Where's the popcorn? Lets go!"


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## Zardnaar (Apr 8, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> Can I ask what Star is? ive heard of Starz (the home of shows such as outlander)
> 
> Certain movies work because of 1 actor stealing the show and going off script. Jim carrey movies probably dont work if he doesn't go off script. robin Williams is the same type of actor (love him or not). Alladin isn't a hit if he isn't as crazy as he is
> 
> ...




 Star gas been added to Disney+ outside USA. It's a lot of 20th Century Fox stuff and up to R16/18. 

 Lots of movies and TV shows. We've watched Die Hard, Romancing the Stone/Jewel of the Nile, Aliens and Predator franchises etc.

 Disney+was very sparse in release with did all new stuff. We canceled after Mandalorian. 

With Wandavision and Falcon+Star it's been getting a lot of use along with random Simpson seasons (6-10 or so).


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## Lylandra (Apr 8, 2021)

My little pony - friendship is magic - expected a kids show and wanted to know what the fuss was about. Strangely good humor, pop culture references, character development and meta comments. 

Starship Troopers - with its cynicicsm and irony ranging from in your face to meta. 

Megamind - agree with the OP


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## Horwath (Apr 13, 2021)

The Thing
Big trouble in Little China


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## Deset Gled (Apr 14, 2021)

Horwath said:


> The Thing




Can you explain this one?  I know it initially did poorly at the box office, but today it's generally recognized as a classic.


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## Mallus (Apr 14, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> Can you explain this one?  I know it initially did poorly at the box office, but today it's generally recognized as a classic.



Yeah that definitely needs clarification, if we're talking about Carpenter's version from the 1980s.


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## Ryujin (Apr 14, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> Can you explain this one?  I know it initially did poorly at the box office, but today it's generally recognized as a classic.



I would even put the original 1951 movie that is based on, "The Thing From Another World", in that category ("classic"). It is, however, definitely a movie that's better than it has a right to be when you consider that it's about a carrot man, from outer space, who crashes his flying saucer in the Arctic and then goes on a blood bender.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 16, 2021)

Going to take this in a slightly different direction...

Mac and Me.  No, I'm not claiming this is a good movie.  This is a terrible movie.  But it has one major redeeming quality: it's treatment of disabilities.

For those that don't remember or haven't seen the movie, the main character is a kid in a wheelchair.  To play him, the production team hired an actual kid in a wheelchair.  And throughout the movie, it's not the focus for the kid or a defining character element.  It's not featured prominently in the trailer or other marketing materials.  The other kids never ask about his wheelchair or his medical condition.  It's simply accepted that being unable to walk is just a background part of the character.  The movie doesn't shy away from the wheelchair at all, including scenes where he's helped in and out of a van; but it's always treated as a completely normal, day-to-day thing.  Even during the infamous scene where the kid falls of a cliff, everyone treats the accident basically the same way they would if any kid who couldn't swim fell into a lake.

Writers today seem to be unable to break away from tropes that need to "balance" disabilities with some special skill, or turn everyone with autism into a super-genius, or put some other bizarre focus on what makes disabled characters "different".  It's been brought up many times how casting agents have major issues with hiring disabled actors to play disabled roles.  Mac and Me manages to handle disabilities better than most of what modern Hollywood is capable of.  And that's better than a movie that's 50% ET knockoff and 50% commercials for McDonalds and Coke has any right to be.


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## Imaculata (Apr 16, 2021)

That reminds me: Silver Bullet. A Stephen King werewolf movie with a kid in a wheelchair. The movie makers couldn't get the werewolf suit done in time, forcing them to not show the creature for most of the film. And much like with Jaws, this works in the movie's favor. When at long last you do see the werewolf briefly, it looks pretty good. But it is the build up that makes it all work.


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 17, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> The movie makers couldn't get the werewolf suit done in time



How long does it take to make a werewolf suit?

I mean a decent cosplayer could probably put one together in a day or two.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 17, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> How long does it take to make a werewolf suit?



Depends on how many werewolf pelts you need to make it...


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## MarkB (Apr 17, 2021)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Depends on how many werewolf pelts you need to make it...



That would be a 101 Dalmations remake worth seeing.


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## Deset Gled (Apr 17, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> How long does it take to make a werewolf suit?
> 
> I mean a decent cosplayer could probably put one together in a day or two.




And on screen, it would look exactly like something a cosplayer put together in a day or two.  Also, 1985.

Special effects are an art.


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## Imaculata (Apr 18, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> And on screen, it would look exactly like something a cosplayer put together in a day or two.  Also, 1985.
> 
> Special effects are an art.




This. Also, film makers usually hire a special effects company to make such a suit. But there may be production delays for any reason, or the completed suit may not be good enough, forcing a redesign, or the hiring of a different studio entirely. Scheduling film shoots is a logistic nightmare. Making a werewolf suit that doesn't look like a suit, with fur that doesn't look like fake fur, and complex animatronics is a difficult task.

One of my favourite werewolf designs remains the one from the movie Bad Moon. It has one of the worst transformation effects of any werewolf movie, but the suit looks amazing.


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## RobJN (Apr 18, 2021)

Undrave said:


> How about Thunderbolt Fantasy? A glove-puppet show made in 2016 by masters of the craft from Taiwan written by a Japanese writer responsible for the Fate franchise, and with character design influenced by the Nendoroid company is somehow an AMAZING wuxia franchise?! And can be ridiculously bloody?!
> 
> It's mindblowingly good and way more straightforward than Uroboshi's other works. You could easily mine that first season for a DnD adventure, for exemple...



Also: *EPIC SOUNDTRACK*


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## Paul Farquhar (Apr 18, 2021)

Deset Gled said:


> And on screen, it would look exactly like something a cosplayer put together in a day or two.  Also, 1985.
> 
> Special effects are an art.



But minimal lighting is easy.


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## Undrave (Apr 18, 2021)

RobJN said:


> Also: *EPIC SOUNDTRACK*



YES!!!


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