# Dragonborn Info



## Kwalish Kid (Apr 4, 2008)

From the version of the article mentioned here that appeared in my local paper, I can just make out some of the dragonborn stats from the picture of a PC beside The Rouse.

The best online version of the pic can that I can find can be seen at http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-04-01-300991490_x.htm# and can be enlarged, but not to make it any more legible. The version I'm working from is a 5.5" x 8" newspaper photo. From past experience, I'm sure that my scanner would simply mangle the image, even if it was working properly, which it isn't.

I have no idea what version of the PHB this is, but it looks like the pages shown at the DDXP. Some of this information is extrapolated from the characters I can make out and what I expect to see. I have tried to indicate where I am least sure.

Here's what I can make out:

Str +2, Cha +2
Size Medium
Speed (some number less than 10) squares
Vision Normal

Languages Common, Draconic
Skill Bonuses +2 History (not 100% on this), +2 Intimidate

Dragonborn Fury When you're Bloodied you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls.
Draconic Heritage (Something about using something else instead of your Constitution modifier, but I can't make out for what)
Dragon Breath (Blurry text)

Dragon Breath (Red-coloured Power) Dragonborn Racial Power
Encounter * Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Poison
Minor Action (I kid you not!) Area blast 3 (I think)
Target All creatures in blast (I think)
Attack Strength +2 vs. Reflex, Constitution +2 vs. Reflex, or (blurry) +2 vs. Reflex

I think it lists the damage as 1d8 + Constitution modifier, but it gets mighty blurry there, and the paragraph continues off the edge of the screen. Edit: it could even be "2d6 + Constitution modifier", this part of the picture is really hard to make out.

There's a neat picture of a female dragonborn with scale mail, a shield and what might be her sword to the left of the text.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (Apr 4, 2008)

Damn, I can just imagine a bunch of Warlord and Fighter Dragonborn rampaging through a bunch of enemies, using the Warlord's tactical powers to propel them forward and using their racial daily to blast enemies apart.


----------



## deathdonut (Apr 4, 2008)

Nice find!


----------



## Chris_Nightwing (Apr 4, 2008)

Wow, great scoop, can you get a scan of the original pic? Maybe ask the paper?


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 4, 2008)

Dear monky-idol, you have some eyes on you!
-edit-
I cannot WAIT till someone fully deciphers this!


----------



## Kwalish Kid (Apr 4, 2008)

I could scan the pic, but I'm not sure it would be any help. Looking at the printing with a magnifying glass is no help. The resolution of the dots is at the point where you have to look at the shape of the blur and extrapolate in a lot of places, this is hard to do when pixelated.

But I'm looking for a better pic. I changed the link from the original post to a better source.


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 4, 2008)

Kwalish Kid said:
			
		

> A version of the pic can be seen at http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2008-04-01-300991490_x.htm# and.




Nice image analysis. Jobs to be had in that field I hear. 

Dragonborn sound pretty powerful. The +2 Cha is surprising to me, I would have figured a +2 Str, along with a +2 Con or +2 Wis (the latter since they were supposed to be cleric types).

C.I.D.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (Apr 4, 2008)

Well... It is pretty extreme extrapolation but... They are related to Dragons who can be quite charming when they want to be, and the spawn of a god so I could see charisma playing a factor.

PLUS! Perhaps charisma is no longer simply, "look at me I am pretty and I can talk nicely" and instead has become force of character, which Dragonborn would have lots of.


----------



## netnomad (Apr 4, 2008)

My god man!  You must have +20 to Spot err Perception.  It was one big blur to me.   

-NetNomad


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 4, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> PLUS! Perhaps charisma is no longer simply, "look at me I am pretty and I can talk nicely" and instead has become force of character, which Dragonborn would have lots of.




.....well Cha was supposed to be like that in 3.x. Don't ask me to rate their implementation.

c.i.d.


----------



## Ktulu (Apr 4, 2008)

Wow.  I'm surprised at the charisma boost.  Interesting.  I wouldn't have pegged them for that, but it definitely puts them in a newer light.  I could see them as a very boistrous & talkative race.  Hmm..

So far, I don't see anything I don't like.  I know one of my players will be giddy about this new development!

Ktulu


----------



## MaelStorm (Apr 4, 2008)

Wow really nice job Kwalish Kid, thx for the scoop.


----------



## FreeXenon (Apr 4, 2008)

Umm yea. That is an amazing feat of eyesight. 
I hope that someone can confirm this with some great image work.

Thanks!


----------



## Kwalish Kid (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm not using the online photos, I'm using the version that appeared in the paper. It's about 5.5" by 8", and the quality, though rendered in, I believe, cyan/yellow/magenta dots, is better than the internet  copy that I could find. According to one version of the story I found, there were six pictures associated with the story. I could not confirm this through the AP site. I suppose someone could buy the highest resolution pictures from the AP site, but I'm not going to do that.

Siz photos associated with the article can currently be seen at the Idaho Statesman website. Javascript required.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/apbusinessnews/story/339387.html


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 4, 2008)

To Rouse:

How clever are you (and your imperious evil corporate masters .... sorry i just love slander)? Were you testing our posters at EN World to get the final 4e race? Well done. 

Dragonborn sound way better than they were in 3.5.

C.I.D.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Apr 4, 2008)

Great find!

Wow, well... Dragonborn sound cool!


----------



## Scholar & Brutalman (Apr 4, 2008)

Nice find! I wonder what punishment The Rouse is receiving for this security breach? Is he being shipped off to the card mines?



			
				Kwalish Kid said:
			
		

> Minor Action (I kid you not!)




Nice again! It doesn't do that much damage though.


----------



## TheLordWinter (Apr 5, 2008)

I'd just like to say that's six kinds of impressive, since the best I could manage from the online copy of the picture was the word "Dragon Breath."


----------



## FreeXenon (Apr 5, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> ... to propel them forward and using their racial daily to blast enemies apart.




If I remember correctly
Green is 'At will'
Red is 'Encounter'
Black is 'Daily'

I am thinking that the breath weapon is a per encounter power.

*Edit: *The text that he provided does state that is an encounter power.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (Apr 5, 2008)

FreeXenon said:
			
		

> If I remember correctly
> Green is 'At will'
> Red is 'Encounter'
> Black is 'Daily'
> ...




Woops, just read red which I had thought was daily, well even cooler


----------



## Bold or Stupid (Apr 5, 2008)

Cyronax said:
			
		

> Nice image analysis. Jobs to be had in that field I hear.
> 
> Dragonborn sound pretty powerful. The +2 Cha is surprising to me, I would have figured a +2 Str, along with a +2 Con or +2 Wis (the latter since they were supposed to be cleric types).
> 
> C.I.D.




They're supposed to be Paladins, not Clerics. Str&cha bonuses Mkae them good Fighters, Paladins and Warlords. This was what I expected, didn't everyone get the memo?


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 5, 2008)

Bold or Stupid said:
			
		

> They're supposed to be Paladins, not Clerics. Str&cha bonuses Mkae them good Fighters, Paladins and Warlords. This was what I expected, didn't everyone get the memo?




......No I didn't. Kindly link to it or please get the tone out of your post.


----------



## The Little Raven (Apr 5, 2008)

Cyronax said:
			
		

> ......No I didn't. Kindly link to it or please get the tone out of your post.




Since you're asking him for support for his claim, you should provide the same. Do you have a link that says dragonborn are ideal clerics?


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 5, 2008)

Kwalish Kid said:
			
		

> Str +2, Cha +2
> Size Medium
> Speed (some number less than 10) squares
> Vision Normal
> ...




Through the power of guessing, you could probably clear that up. But it'd be guessing. Ah, well, I'll try cause I can   

Speed - probably 6. Everything else but Dwarves and Elves appears to have a speed of 6, and I doubt they'll change this for the Dragonborn.

Draconic Heritage - What do we know about Constitution? It applies to your Fort defence, your Endurance skill, and some powers. Oh! And hit points. Maybe you use your Charisma/Strength score instead of your Constitution for starting hp? That's my most outlandish theory   

The Dragon Breath bit under Draconic Heritage will probably just say 'You can use Dragon Breath as an encounter power', just like the Tiefling entry said for Infernal Wrath.

As for the actual Dragon Breath description, I'm pretty sure it'd be 'Close Blast 3' and the final blurry attack line will be 'Dexterity +2 vs Reflex'. I think there'd also be a bit about choosing which type of damage you deal in the breath weapon description.

Ideas, anyone?

Edit: As I see Poison is listed as a damage type I think we can guess what Green Dragons will be breathing


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 5, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Since you're asking him for support for his claim, you should provide the same. Do you have a link that says dragonborn are ideal clerics?




I did a quick google to jar my memory. See link below. It relates to the ole 'mystery race' tidbit WotC floated last Fall. .. When they said the mystery race would be a good cleric. 

http://okayyourturn.yuku.com/topic/13653/t/Dragonborn.html

Sorry I wasn't more straight forward. 

C.I.D.

EDIT: The link above was the first corroboration I found. I would have search EN World, but the server kept crapping out.


----------



## metal71dog (Apr 5, 2008)

Please scan the article you have at home on the highest quality scanner you have access to and post it on flicker.  Then supply link here.

Please also accept my greatest gratitude in advance,

Thank YOu

Metal71dog


----------



## Bold or Stupid (Apr 5, 2008)

No tone intended. Also I have no links off hand, but check the old Dragonborn threads on the Wizards boards. The major evidence for Paladin was and still is the Bahaumut connection mentioned in Races and Classes along side the strong warrior/defender vibe the article gives them.



			
				R&C p. 26 said:
			
		

> Such admiration is most readily earned through direct action according to a solid creed. Direct action means decisiveness and courage, and a solid creed is usually a devotion to a draconic god. In a dangerous world, and driven by military customs, dragonborn take up arms to make their way.




That seems very paladin to me. Faith and strength of arms. Clerics appear to be more faith alone, so paladins.


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 5, 2008)

Bold or Stupid said:
			
		

> No tone intended. Also I have no links off hand, but check the old Dragonborn threads on the Wizards boards. The major evidence for Paladin was and still is the Bahaumut connection mentioned in Races and Classes along side the strong warrior/defender vibe the article gives them.
> 
> 
> 
> That seems very paladin to me. Faith and strength of arms. Clerics appear to be more faith alone, so paladins.





Well lets be at peace then. At least dragonborn maybe better paladins (or maybe clerics) than (DDXP) halflings ...... 

C.I.D.


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 5, 2008)

I'd like to point out that the Cleric does seem to rely somewhat on Charisma and Strength, so a Dragonborn still makes a fine Cleric. He's also probably a better Cleric than he is a Fighter, as I don't see Fighters needing Charisma so much.

So the Dragonborn racial description may well recommend Cleric, Paladin and Warlord.


----------



## Fallen Seraph (Apr 5, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> I'd like to point out that the Cleric does seem to rely somewhat on Charisma and Strength, so a Dragonborn still makes a fine Cleric. He's also probably a better Cleric than he is a Fighter, as I don't see Fighters needing Charisma so much.
> 
> So the Dragonborn racial description may well recommend Cleric, Paladin and Warlord.




Well in either case all I can say is, Dragonborn Religious Civil War!!! Bahamut vs. Tiamat!


----------



## Burr (Apr 5, 2008)

http://www.idahostatesman.com/apbusinessnews/story/339387.html

Any of you sharp-eyed people take a look at the character sheet photo in that bunch?

There's what is probably a big HP box, bottomed with a Second Wind checkbox, followed by an Experience section, followed by basic attacks, followed by some other section.  There's handwriting, but I can't tell if there's any new information there.

Also, to the left there are rows of unlabeled boxes.  For defenses, I guess?


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 5, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Well in either case all I can say is, Dragonborn Religious Civil War!!! Bahamut vs. Tiamat!




Actually, what are the chances of the dreaded Dragonspawn popping up in the first MM?


----------



## Bold or Stupid (Apr 5, 2008)

Cyronax said:
			
		

> Well lets be at peace then. At least dragonborn maybe better paladins (or maybe clerics) than (DDXP) halflings ......
> 
> C.I.D.





Nah Halflings Dex bonus gives them more AC as thy flee their marked target...

wait they've _fixed_ that...

dammit. Yeah DB Paladins should rule.


----------



## Immolate (Apr 5, 2008)

Keep in mind that charisma is the key attribute in intimidation.

Edit: Gargazon, I'd say approximately 100%.


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 5, 2008)

Immolate said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that charisma is the key attribute in intimidation.
> 
> Edit: Gargazon, I'd say approximately 100%.




Crap. Aslong as they go forget the Black Dragon-spiders and the Bluespawn Godslayer is in it shouldn't be so bad...

Cause, let's be honest, a Black Dragon-spider is a bit too Lolth.


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 5, 2008)

REQUEST: Please stop linking to articles, and link to images.


----------



## Henry (Apr 5, 2008)

Y'know, we REALLY need to name this scoop not "Dragonborn Info" but "_Kwalish Kid has 20/10 vision!!!"_

This is phenomenal, and great detective work, to boot.


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 5, 2008)

Bold or Stupid said:
			
		

> Nah Halflings Dex bonus gives them more AC as thy flee their marked target...
> 
> wait they've _fixed_ that...
> 
> dammit. Yeah DB Paladins should rule.




Too true. Halflings are the power race in 4e. As we always suspected.


----------



## Zaruthustran (Apr 5, 2008)

I'm not sure there'll be a universal "power race" in 4E. I think it all depends on the race + class combo. I mean, Halfling fighter vs. Dragonborn fighter is not going to favor the halfling...


----------



## Cyronax (Apr 5, 2008)

Zaruthustran said:
			
		

> I'm not sure there'll be a universal "power race" in 4E. I think it all depends on the race + class combo. I mean, Halfling fighter vs. Dragonborn fighter is not going to favor the halfling...






I can't provide an ounce of evidence for this, but "size matters in 4e."

Therefore, halflings are overpowered and should not be allowed as a PC race.

Clearly I am right and sensible.

c.i.d.


----------



## Bishmon (Apr 5, 2008)

Great work, Kwalish Kid!

I'm glad to see they got +2 Cha, because that's presumably going to be the key stat for sorcerers.

I really like the breath weapon. It doesn't do much damage, which helps keep it in line with other racial powers, but it's a minor action, so a player doesn't really give much up in using it. That means even though it won't be huge damage, it'll still probably be used often each encounter.

Overall, I'm a big fan of the mechanics. I can't wait to play a dragonborn fighter.


----------



## lvl20dm (Apr 5, 2008)

I don't know, the Halfling Paladin still gets a bonus to Cha, which is probably the most important attribute for that class, and has an amazing racial power. Having seen some of 4e played with the quickstart rules, I'm inclined to believe that Second Chance and Elven accuracy are two of the most universally useful racial abilities in the game! It seems like any race/class combination should work fairly well - it's not like we have the problem of dwarf sorcerors or half-orc wizards like we did in 3e.


----------



## Keefe the Thief (Apr 5, 2008)

Now dragonborn remind me of the dragon men race in the later wizardry games. I always had a dracon?  bard with me, and his breath weapon could be quite useful. Me like.


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 5, 2008)

OP, does this look right to you? Where are there discrepancies?  (I want to get as close as I can for those addicted to the Pre-Release Rules.)

Dragonborn
Str +2, Cha +2

Size Medium
Speed 6 squares
Vision Normal
Languages Common, Draconic

Skill Bonuses: +2 History, +2 Intimidate
Dragonborn Fury: When you're bloodied you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls.
Draconic Heritage: When a power or skill uses your Constitution modifier, you may use your Charisma modifier instead.

*Dragon Breath* (Dragonborn Racial Power)
*Encounter * Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning or Poison
Minor Action  Close Blast 3
Target*: All creatures in blast
*Attack*: Strength +2 vs. Reflex, Constitution +2 vs. Reflex, or Charisma +2 vs. Reflex
*Hit*: 1d8 + Constitution modifier of acid, cold, fire, lightning or poison damage.


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 5, 2008)

RyukenAngel said:
			
		

> OP, does this look right to you? Where are there discrepancies?  (I want to get as close as I can for those addicted to the Pre-Release Rules.)
> 
> Dragonborn
> Str +2, Cha +2
> ...




I would bet it's more likely that the third entry on attack for the Dragon Breath is Dexterity +2 vs Reflex, so that the Rogues don't all feel left out. It also makes more sense given the other two stats are physical ones.


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 6, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> I would bet it's more likely that the third entry on attack for the Dragon Breath is Dexterity +2 vs Reflex, so that the Rogues don't all feel left out. It also makes more sense given the other two stats are physical ones.



True enough, but since when have dragons been associated with dexterity? Also, what bearing does Dexterity have on a breath weapon? If Charisma represents force of will and personality, then I would find Charisma to be a much better fit for a Breath Weapon than Dexterity. (Though, I find any choice other than Constitution an odd one...)

Also, Charisma and Strength are both secondary abilities for Rogues.  They are likely to have one at a decent, usable level.


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 6, 2008)

RyukenAngel said:
			
		

> True enough, but since when have dragons been associated with dexterity? Also, what bearing does Dexterity have on a breath weapon? If Charisma represents force of will and personality, then I would find Charisma to be a much better fit for a Breath Weapon than Dexterity. (Though, I find any choice other than Constitution an odd one...)
> 
> Also, Charisma and Strength are both secondary abilities for Rogues.  They are likely to have one at a decent, usable level.




Actually, given that a breath weapon is, in some respect, a RANGED attack, Dexterity makes much more sense than Strength does for Dragon Breath, and even more so than Charisma. I also don't see how force of personality could ever be considered as helpful attribute for breathing fire from your lungs. That just doesn't sit well with me at all.


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 6, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> Actually, given that a breath weapon is, in some respect, a RANGED attack, Dexterity makes much more sense than Strength does for Dragon Breath, and even more so than Charisma. I also don't see how force of personality could ever be considered as helpful attribute for breathing fire from your lungs. That just doesn't sit well with me at all.



IMO, anything but Con is wonky for a breath weapon.  I don't see how a breath weapon is ranged in the least (that is to say, ranged in the same sense as a magic missile or a bow's arrow), nor how Dexterity would apply to it. I think charisma is a wonky ability score period, but if it is usable to represent a Warlock's or Sorcerer's power, I could see it also applying to a dragon (if I had to make a stretch.)  Also, the dragonborn gets a racial Charisma bonus (as well as strength, which it already uses for its breath weapon), so I find it likely that a race would try to play to it's own strengths.

My best guess is that we are going to have to agree to disagree, however.


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 6, 2008)

RyukenAngel said:
			
		

> My best guess is that we are going to have to agree to disagree, however.




Aww, man, that line always kills the arguments!   

I'm interested to see if anyone has put together and playtested a Dragonborn character yet? (I imagine it is a bit soon).


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 6, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> Aww, man, that line always kills the arguments!
> 
> I'm interested to see if anyone has put together and playtested a Dragonborn character yet? (I imagine it is a bit soon).





Other than the discrepancy regarding the breath weapon, any other comments on my guesstimated writeup?


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 6, 2008)

RyukenAngel said:
			
		

> Other than the discrepancy regarding the breath weapon, any other comments on my guesstimated writeup?




Since you asked so nicely   

For the Draconic Heritage, my guesstimation (which is a page back and has been ignored   ) was that they may apply their Charisma score instead of their Constitution score to their starting hit points, as that would overall be far more useful than substituting Constitution for Charisma for attacks. I think this would fit nicely with the 'Dragons are tough' idea, though it is perhaps a little overpowered (everyone would roll Dragonborn Warlock).


----------



## jackston2 (Apr 6, 2008)

Finally they're breaking the typecast of strong equals dumb brute.

The half-orc's social penalties just gave players an excuse to be jerks.


----------



## Siran Dunmorgan (Apr 6, 2008)

Can anyone determine which program is being used to display the page image?

It doesn't look like Word, and it doesn't look like any of the Adobe Reader/Acrobat variations with which I am familiar, either.

Knowing which program it is will help somewhat in answering certain questions that have come up on the official boards regarding workflow at Wizards of the Coast.

—Siran Dunmorgan


----------



## Goobermunch (Apr 6, 2008)

Henry said:
			
		

> Y'know, we REALLY need to name this scoop not "Dragonborn Info" but "_Kwalish Kid has 20/10 vision!!!"_
> 
> This is phenomenal, and great detective work, to boot.




I'm betting Kwalish Kid has an HD TV and a DVR.  The set designers for shows filmed in HD learned in the past few years that people so equipped are fond of pausing the show and reading computer screens, newspapers, and any other written word on the set.  As a result, they've had to start putting in relevant information.

KK is probably one of those folks, who applied the skills he honed watching Law & Order to reading the newspaper.  

--G


----------



## Remathilis (Apr 6, 2008)

Siran Dunmorgan said:
			
		

> Can anyone determine which program is being used to display the page image?
> 
> It doesn't look like Word, and it doesn't look like any of the Adobe Reader/Acrobat variations with which I am familiar, either.
> 
> ...




Not sure. Could be Adobe InDesign, or it could be MS Publisher. My money's on the latter though: publisher is much more for small publishers rather than corps. And Adobe has a virtual lock on most of that market.


----------



## Remathilis (Apr 6, 2008)

Siran Dunmorgan said:
			
		

> Can anyone determine which program is being used to display the page image?
> 
> It doesn't look like Word, and it doesn't look like any of the Adobe Reader/Acrobat variations with which I am familiar, either.
> 
> ...




Not sure. Could be Adobe InDesign, or it could be MS Publisher. My money's on the former though: publisher is much more for small publishers rather than corps. And Adobe has a virtual lock on most of that market.


----------



## Bishmon (Apr 6, 2008)

Gargazon said:
			
		

> Since you asked so nicely
> 
> For the Draconic Heritage, my guesstimation (which is a page back and has been ignored   ) was that they may apply their Charisma score instead of their Constitution score to their starting hit points, as that would overall be far more useful than substituting Constitution for Charisma for attacks. I think this would fit nicely with the 'Dragons are tough' idea, though it is perhaps a little overpowered (everyone would roll Dragonborn Warlock).



I initially thought hit points, but I also thought that might be a bit overpowered. Thinking about it, though, I'm not so sure it'd be overpowered, considering constitution only affects hit points at first level.

My next guess was healing surges. That would give the average dragonborn an extra surge or two, which is nice, but not crazy.

What else does consitution affect? All I can think of, besides some powers, is the endurance skill and the fortitude defense. Surely charisma isn't going to affect the latter, because that would make the strength bonus somewhat redundant. As for the former, I don't know, I can't imagine a draconic heritage being tied to the endurance skill.

I'm thinking, though, that unless it's something completely unexpected, I would have rather them given a flat bump to whatever it is the draconic heritage affects, so that the feature would have been relevant to more than just high-Cha, low-Con characters. Again, depending on what exactly it affects, I might houserule that.


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 6, 2008)

Bishmon said:
			
		

> I initially thought hit points, but I also thought that might be a bit overpowered. Thinking about it, though, I'm not so sure it'd be overpowered, considering constitution only affects hit points at first level.
> 
> My next guess was healing surges. That would give the average dragonborn an extra surge or two, which is nice, but not crazy.
> 
> ...




Wow, healing surges was something I had not thought of, and seems like quite a good choice for any Dragonborn character of any class, especially Paladins with their Lay on Hands   It's flavourful and not too overpowering.


----------



## Kwalish Kid (Apr 6, 2008)

If the Draconic Heritage is like the existing feat, it might have to do with choice of breath weapon.

Existing feat: 


> *Draconic Heritage (from Complete Arcane):* Choose one dragon from the Draconic Heritage list (see _Complete Arcane_, page 78) and gain the indicated skill as a class skill. (Meepo has chosen white dragon, with Balance as a class skill.) This choice represents your draconic heritage, and it cannot be changed once you have taken the feat. A half-dragon must choose the same dragon kind as its dragon parent. In addition, you gain a bonus on saving throws against sleep and paralysis, as well as spells and abilities with the energy type matching your Draconic Heritage (cold, in Meepo's case). The magnitude of this bonus equals the number of draconic feats you have.




It might be that the 4E Draconic Heritage is where the dragonborn chooses the form of their breath weapon and he or she gets resistance to the appropriate damage type equal to their Constitution modifier. I'm not at home, so I can't actually look at the paper right now, but from the on-line version, I guess that there is not enough text in that entry to cover everything discussed in the 3E version.

And yes, I do have HDTV and a PVR and I do pause the TV for extra stuff. The vanity cards at the end of The Big Bang Theory are particularly rewarding as are, unsurprisingly, most episodes of Lost. I haven't looked at Law and Order yet, but I will.


----------



## CleverNickName (Apr 6, 2008)

Superb job on the cyphering, Kwalish...I would never have been able to pull that off.  We here at ENWorld owe you a debt that can only be repaid in beer.  Or maybe beef jerky.

My critique:

-  I like the bonuses.  At first glance, +2 Str and +2 Cha sounds like the dream build for a paladin or warlock, but I will still need to see the other classes and races in order to back that statement up.

-  Normal vision?  I would have thought that this race would have a more "reptillian" sort of eyesight (something like darkvision maybe, or even the old-school infravision) but maybe that is just my previous experience showing through.  Perhaps 4E is moving away from the "not human, therefore better eyeballs" trend.

-  Skills...+2 History?  Not sure why they are better at remembering dates and legends than the average Joe...perhaps they have longer lifespans, or tighter clan relations?  +2 Intimidate is obvious, however.

-  Dragon Breath is a "minor" action, even with an area blast of 3?  Whiskey tango foxtrot, over?  I would have thought something that iconic would be a little higher-ranking, but I'd need to see all of the other racial powers to get the right context.  That being said, I could actually _hear_ my players salivating at the prospect of an acid-breathing character.  They use acid for EVERYTHING...not just trolls, but for padlocks and doors and whatever else that stands in their way.

-  Does the female dragonborn have boobs?  If so, why?  _Dear god, why?!  Whyyyyyyyyyyy??!?!?_  If not, well, nevermind.

Anyway, I'm still dodgy on the dragonborn as a viable race, if only from a conceptual point of view.  It sounds cool enough and all, and I like it a lot better than I like tieflings, but still...it feels a little bit too sci-fi for my tastes.  I'm getting too much of an "Enemy Mine" vibe.

I will probably houserule it out when/if I start a 4E game.


----------



## Ebon Shar (Apr 7, 2008)

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> I will probably houserule it out when/if I start a 4E game.




I can imagine a lot of players being disappointed that you've ruled out a perfectly good race, IMO, just because if reminds you of a movie you may or may not have liked.  Why not play the game "as is" for a few months and then decide?  Who knows, Dragonborn may turn out to offer your players more fun than you think now.  If you eliminate them out of the box, you'll never know.


----------



## CleverNickName (Apr 7, 2008)

Ebon Shar said:
			
		

> I can imagine a lot of players being disappointed that you've ruled out a perfectly good race, IMO, just because if reminds you of a movie you may or may not have liked.  Why not play the game "as is" for a few months and then decide?  Who knows, Dragonborn may turn out to offer your players more fun than you think now.  If you eliminate them out of the box, you'll never know.



You are absolutely right, of course.  Unfortunately, the rest of my group is anti-4E...even more than I can be at times.  Removing tieflings and dragonborn would be a step in the right direction, as far as making 4E more appealing to them.


----------



## DandD (Apr 7, 2008)

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> You are absolutely right, of course.  Unfortunately, the rest of my group is anti-4E...even more than I can be at times.  Removing tieflings and dragonborn would be a step in the right direction, as far as making 4E more appealing to them.



 If they actually don't like Tieflings and Dragonborn, why would you need to rule out both of these races, if nobody is going to pick them up to play anyway? It's not like you're going to force them down their throat, right?


----------



## Gargazon (Apr 7, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> If they actually don't like Tieflings and Dragonborn, why would you need to rule out both of these races, if nobody is going to pick them up to play anyway? It's not like you're going to force them down their throat, right?




I agree, and this way you also leave the options open incase one of your players decides he might just try out a Tiefling or Dragonborn to see what it's like.


----------



## Sojorn (Apr 7, 2008)

DandD said:
			
		

> If they actually don't like Tieflings and Dragonborn, why would you need to rule out both of these races, if nobody is going to pick them up to play anyway? It's not like you're going to force them down their throat, right?



Just because he can.

No, seriously, something therapeutic about officially house ruling out something that you were never going to use. Like blowing up something you don't use any more. It's just fun and it makes you feel like you own the system


----------



## CleverNickName (Apr 7, 2008)

Sojorn said:
			
		

> Just because he can.
> 
> No, seriously, something therapeutic about officially house ruling out something that you were never going to use. Like blowing up something you don't use any more. It's just fun and it makes you feel like you own the system



Mostly this, but also because we've never been fans of the "everything but the kitchen sink" approach to world building.  Tieflings and dragonborn are great for some game tables, and can fit into a lot of different campaigns and gaming styles.  However, we like a narrow focus, with clear distinctions between good and evil.  Dragons and demons are clearly the "bad guys" of our game world, and we like to keep them that way...so we remove the elements that might blur the line (see also: Half-orc.)


----------



## Graf (Apr 7, 2008)

Siran Dunmorgan said:
			
		

> Knowing which program it is will help somewhat in answering certain questions that have come up on the official boards regarding workflow at Wizards of the Coast.



You sir (or madam) are more of a geek than I, in my most ardent yearnings, could ever manage to be.
I salute you.


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Apr 7, 2008)

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> I'm getting too much of an "Enemy Mine" vibe.




I love that movie.

Dragonborn have females. With BOOBS.

Enemy Mine had male-ish hermaphrodites.


----------



## Ebon Shar (Apr 7, 2008)

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> Mostly this, but also because we've never been fans of the "everything but the kitchen sink" approach to world building.  Tieflings and dragonborn are great for some game tables, and can fit into a lot of different campaigns and gaming styles.  However, we like a narrow focus, with clear distinctions between good and evil.  Dragons and demons are clearly the "bad guys" of our game world, and we like to keep them that way...so we remove the elements that might blur the line (see also: Half-orc.)




I can appreciate that.  I, too, like a game with a more narrow focus.  One in which everything has a clear and defined reason for being in the game.  If the races in dispute don't have or couldn't have a place in your campaign, then house-ruling them out is probably the right thing to do.  On the other hand, retroactively placing them in the campaign world's history, perhaps as long dead (or thought to be) races, you can bring them up in the future to suit your player's needs or your desires.


----------



## Nytmare (Apr 7, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> I love that movie.




Your Mickey Mouse is one big stupid dope!


----------



## Kwalish Kid (Apr 7, 2008)

CleverNickName said:
			
		

> -  Normal vision?  I would have thought that this race would have a more "reptillian" sort of eyesight (something like darkvision maybe, or even the old-school infravision) but maybe that is just my previous experience showing through.  Perhaps 4E is moving away from the "not human, therefore better eyeballs" trend.



In the preview books, there was at least one clear statement that they were skewing the game far more to normal vision. I remember a passage in the discussion of dwarven settlements in particular.


> -  Skills...+2 History?  Not sure why they are better at remembering dates and legends than the average Joe...perhaps they have longer lifespans, or tighter clan relations?



This again is something that jibes with the preview books. In _Races and Classes_, the developers point to certain behaviour of the dragonborn that relate to the telling of historical tales.

It's not biological, it's cultural. In your campaign, perhaps you'd do it differently. I can totally understand that.


> I'm getting too much of an "Enemy Mine" vibe.



That made me chuckle. given some of the art, there is definitely that vibe.


----------



## Nahat Anoj (Apr 7, 2008)

Nice scoop!

It's amazing how just a little bit of info jazzes me up for the Dragonborn.  I get the sense the race will have an inborn sense of imperious confidence - in good Dragonborn, this will be more dignified, while in evil Dragonborn this will be more haughty and overbearing.  I also love the ability they gain at bloodied - I can almost imagine them being outraged that they have been wounded in such a manner.

They're a good "strong guy" race - they're not at all stupid, and they ooze strength and power.  I can't wait to read the full race write-up!


----------



## Ebon Shar (Apr 7, 2008)

Jonathan Moyer said:
			
		

> Nice scoop!
> 
> It's amazing how just a little bit of info jazzes me up for the Dragonborn.  I get the sense the race will have an inborn sense of imperious confidence - in good Dragonborn, this will be more dignified, while in evil Dragonborn this will be more haughty and overbearing.  I also love the ability they gain at bloodied - I can almost imagine them being outraged that they have been wounded in such a manner.
> 
> They're a good "strong guy" race - they're not at all stupid, and they ooze strength and power.  I can't wait to read the full race write-up!




Your enthusiasm only serves to increase my own and make the wait until publication even more intolerable!  Damn you, man!


----------



## stripes (Apr 7, 2008)

Kwalish Kid said:
			
		

> [...] Cha +2  [...]




+2 Cha?   So confirmed that dragonborn have breasts?


----------



## Bugaboo (Apr 7, 2008)

Why house-rule something out of the game? ...



			
				Sojorn said:
			
		

> Just because he can.




And that's a perfectly good reason. 

I'm more interested in why other people who aren't involved in his game feel the need to convince him to leave in a particular element. What's the motivation or personal investment in how someone else runs his game?


----------



## D.Shaffer (Apr 7, 2008)

You know what makes me chuckle a bit?  In 3rd, dragons can mate with anything under the son AND have fertile offspring.  Dogs, humans, lizards, penguins, three toed sloths? Sure! You can, and someone most likely has, tossed the half dragon template on it.  I remember some jokes about Dragons and their activities mentioned before, but hardly anyone ever brought it up, nor the fact that most of those humanoid based half dragons had boobies, in the artwork, if they were female. 

So why is everyone suddenly up in arms over dragonborn having huge 'tracts of land' hanging off their chest?    Heck, if Io was himself a huge dragon before he went asunder, it's just extending the tradition, right? 

"and then Great Io did it with the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats..."


----------



## Nahat Anoj (Apr 7, 2008)

stripes said:
			
		

> +2 Cha?   So confirmed that dragonborn have breasts?



They do indeed have breasts, and apparently they're nice.


----------



## keterys (Apr 7, 2008)

Making houserules because you dislike rules you haven't used is honestly kinda bad... but this is a flavor decision, so whatever. I will agree that a player might honestly want to play one of the races (especially in a 'new shinyness' kinda way, right at edition change)

But, whatever works. It's when people are like 'I'm changing marking. or diagonal movement. or dragonborn boob physics' that I'd question their sense in changing rules they haven't experienced fully.

Yeah, fully.


----------



## xenos007 (Apr 7, 2008)

I am already planning my Dragonborne Paladin!


----------



## Jhaelen (Apr 7, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> Making houserules because you dislike rules you haven't used is honestly kinda bad... but this is a flavor decision, so whatever.



Yup. Banning a race or adding new ones (from the MM or made up) is clearly part of creative freedom when creating a setting to play in. It doesn't really impact the rules. Imho, it's in the same category as changing names ("IMC warlords will be called marshalls!") or visuals ("IMC tiefling don't have tails!") without affecting crunch.

Now, banning classes could actually negatively affect game balance, especially if you ban all classes of a certain role - unless you create your own to fill the now vacant niche.


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 7, 2008)

Anybody else care to guess/decipher what the remainder of the text for the Dragonborn might be?


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 7, 2008)

LOL BEWBS!

4e is so mammalian. I've had it up to here with their mammal-o-centric mammal-ocracy! Outrage! Indignancy! Rabble rabble!

Robble robble?


----------



## Dark080matter (Apr 7, 2008)

xenos007 said:
			
		

> I am already planning my Dragonborne Paladin!




Me Too~!


----------



## Moon-Lancer (Apr 7, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> LOL BEWBS!
> 
> 4e is so mammalian.




LOL, that reminded me of the Mario brothers movie with Dennis Hopper.


----------



## Dark080matter (Apr 7, 2008)

RyukenAngel said:
			
		

> Anybody else care to guess/decipher what the remainder of the text for the Dragonborn might be?




heh, well if I really _had to guess_(don't have access to any kind of zoomed-in text like the OP, just personal opinion/possiblity) I would say that Draconic Heritage will probably allow you to use either your Strength or Charisma modifiers instead of Constitution for... Healing Surges per day.  Why?  Because of the limitations on how quickly a character can use Second Wind (normally just 1x per Encounter barring exceptions, right?), it's a simple change that solidifies the notion of Dragonborn being "just a bit tougher" without anything as egregious or heavy-handed as giving them bonus Hit Points or bonus Healing Surge HP.

Also, by enhancing optimization of ability scores (making it an easier choice to sacrifice some CON for that extra bit of raw Strength, say), it would be a good incentive for locking them into the "Tough Resilient dudes" archetype... and rightly so!

Just my guess/wish.


----------



## Dark080matter (Apr 7, 2008)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> LOL, that reminded me of the Mario brothers movie with Dennis Hopper.




LOL, that reminds me of ukes his brains out:  :\

That movie killed my childhood


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 7, 2008)

> That movie killed my childhood




Ninjas killed my childhood.

Then I resurrected it with the power of friendship.

+ the care bear stare.


----------



## CleverNickName (Apr 8, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> But, whatever works. It's when people are like 'I'm changing marking. or diagonal movement. or dragonborn boob physics' that I'd question their sense in changing rules they haven't experienced fully.
> 
> Yeah, fully.



Agreed.  So I feel I should clarify...

For the record, I think the dragonborn (and tieflings also) are colorful additions to the game.  The cruchy bits that we have seen so far appear to be balanced and interesting.  I can't really say whether they are "good" or "bad" since I haven't had a chance to fully experience them, as keterys said.  But I _can_ say that they aren't a good fit for my game world...the flavor is all wrong for us.  My world doesn't have talking reptiles or acid-spitting superheroes in it, and I shouldn't feel compelled to shoehorn them in simply because the handbook makes them available.

I am sure that some of my players will disagree.  There were complaints from two of my players when I tossed half-orcs out of my current 3.5E campaign, after all.  

But these complaints were rather short-lived.  Once the party was rolled up and heading off on their first big adventure, nobody noticed that half-orcs were missing.  I think it will work out the same way for my hypothetical 4E game as well...unless dragonborn and tieflings are somehow mandatory for game balance in 4E (which I sincerely doubt).


----------



## Xethreau (Apr 8, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Ninjas killed my childhood.
> 
> Then I resurrected it with the power of friendship.
> 
> + the care bear stare.



I appriciate your opinion, but you scare me some times.


----------



## FreeXenon (Apr 8, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> Ninjas killed my childhood.
> 
> Then I resurrected it with the power of friendship.
> 
> + the care bear stare.




Alright! It is official. Kamikaze Midget needs to be stopped. WotC personnel do not hold a candle to this fiend.


----------



## hong (Apr 8, 2008)

Meh. If I'm going to ban halflings, I sure as hell can't complain if others are going to ban dragonborn.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 8, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> Meh. If I'm going to ban halflings, I sure as hell can't complain if others are going to ban dragonborn.



What? You can always complain! We usually always have at least one "designated complainer" in our group!


----------



## hong (Apr 8, 2008)

The designated complainer in my group has already complained about the cleric....


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 8, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> The designated complainer in my group has already complained about the cleric....



Rightfully so. My groups playtest indicate that Clerics are unable to get d20 results above 10. 
And don't get me started on Kobolds - totally overpowered, rolling critical and near criticals round after round.


----------



## Ten (Apr 8, 2008)

As someone who grew up with Draconians, both the reptilian minions of the dark queen, and later, Kang's rowdy band of followers simply trying to make a place for themselves in a world that doesn't want them, I cannot fully convey in words how hard I am chomping at the bit I am to get to play one.  I am about 95% sure I am going to play a Draco...er...a Dragonborn Warlord.

And if there is one thing I have learned about all this dragonborn controversy it is...wow, it seems everyone but me REALLY likes lizardmen.  I...don't think I have ever even seen one in any campaign I have ever been in.


----------



## Green Knight (Apr 8, 2008)

I don't like Lizardmen. And yeah, I find all this Lizardmen love pretty surprising.


----------



## D.Shaffer (Apr 8, 2008)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> I don't like Lizardmen. And yeah, I find all this Lizardmen love pretty surprising.



Havent you heard?  Lizards with boobs=Hot.


----------



## med stud (Apr 8, 2008)

For someone who hasn't played RPGs before, how fun does it sound to play a lizardman? Dragonborn is an impressive name, at least. It's clichéed, but to know that you have to be on the inside. I think dragonborn is a good name, both personally and from the perspective of newcomers.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 8, 2008)

> I think dragonborn is a good name, both personally and from the perspective of newcomers.




It really just fills my mind with the images of human-like beings hatching out of regular dragon's eggs, and the dragon husband looking at his dragon wife very sternly and saying something to the effect of "I KNEW THAT HUMAN MAILMAN AND YOU WERE UP TO SOMETHING!!!!!!!"

Born. Of. Dragons. Maybe I'm just too literal.


----------



## Knightlord (Apr 8, 2008)

Ten said:
			
		

> As someone who grew up with Draconians, both the reptilian minions of the dark queen, and later, Kang's rowdy band of followers simply trying to make a place for themselves in a world that doesn't want them, I cannot fully convey in words how hard I am chomping at the bit I am to get to play one.  I am about 95% sure I am going to play a Draco...er...a Dragonborn Warlord.
> 
> And if there is one thing I have learned about all this dragonborn controversy it is...wow, it seems everyone but me REALLY likes lizardmen.  I...don't think I have ever even seen one in any campaign I have ever been in.





You're not alone. I too like the idea of lizardmen. They seem to be just as acceptable as an elf or a dwarf in a fantasy game, don't ya think?


----------



## Keefe the Thief (Apr 8, 2008)

I think lots of people like Dragonborn, actually. They are just are a good target if you want to describe that D&D is stepping outside of the bounds you´d rather like it to remain inside. 

And i´ll go for a dragonborn wizard, thank you.


----------



## Wormwood (Apr 8, 2008)

Keefe the Thief said:
			
		

> And i´ll go for a dragonborn wizard, thank you.



Dragonborn rogue over here.

The image of a reptile climbing walls and leaping around his opponents is too good to pass on.


----------



## Ebon Shar (Apr 8, 2008)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Dragonborn rogue over here.
> 
> The image of a reptile climbing walls and leaping around his opponents is too good to pass on.





Dragonborn Paladin for the win!


----------



## Nahat Anoj (Apr 8, 2008)

Ten said:
			
		

> And if there is one thing I have learned about all this dragonborn controversy it is...wow, it seems everyone but me REALLY likes lizardmen.  I...don't think I have ever even seen one in any campaign I have ever been in.



I have never seen one played in any of my campaigns before, either.  In any case, IMO a Dragonborn is basically the same thing as a lizardman.

However, to be honest, before the Hungarian dude spoiled the contents of R&C, I would have scoffed at the idea of Dragonborn.  Indeed, I was hoping that Orcs would be the mystery race.  But in a few days the Dragonborn grew on me, and now I can't understand why it took D&D so long to get them.  I suspect the Dragonborn will be a very popular race.

As far as character ideas, a Dragonborn Paladin or Warlord appeal to me.  I think a Dragonborn Barbarian would be a real sight to behold as well.


----------



## Nahat Anoj (Apr 8, 2008)

Kamikaze Midget said:
			
		

> It really just fills my mind with the images of human-like beings hatching out of regular dragon's eggs, and the dragon husband looking at his dragon wife very sternly and saying something to the effect of "I KNEW THAT HUMAN MAILMAN AND YOU WERE UP TO SOMETHING!!!!!!!"
> 
> Born. Of. Dragons. Maybe I'm just too literal.



Yeah, I think you are.    "Dragonborn" is a poetic, honorific name IMO, much like someone being called "Lionheart."


----------

