# Please bring back Plots & Places Forum (merged)



## Bran Blackbyrd (Dec 17, 2003)

*A New Home for Plots and Places?*

I think Plots and Places should have been combined with the Rogues Gallery to make a homebrewed content forum. 
The way it is now, instead of having the resources at hand in their own forum, they have to be sifted out of the chaos in the general forum.

Combining it with the rogues gallery would keep the number of forums the same too, so it still serves the purpose of forum consolidation.

Thank you.


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## Wraith Form (Dec 17, 2003)

*Please bring back Plots & Places Forum*

Hi, Morrus, Hypersmurf, etc.

 This is a request (no demands, no "strongly worded letters to the editor"--keeping things civil) to bring back _Plots & Places_ as it's own separate forum.

 I understood merging _d20 Modern_ with _d20 System/OGL Games_ forums--that made sense to me, and I like it.  

 I also understand _Plo&Pla_ was a slower subsection of the boards, but now that it's been merged with _General Discussion_ (which is nearly *furious* with turnover/new postings) it's impossible to keep up with--or even *find*--the _Plots & Places_ threads.  They get lost in the "tide" of _General Discussion_ posts.

 That's merely my opinion, but as a "fan" of _Plo&Pla_ it'd mean a lot to me to see it have it's own separate forum again.

 And if you say "NO" I'll drop it, too--it'll require hard work that you guys might not want to undertake.

 Thank you!  --Wraith Form


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## Micar Sin (Dec 17, 2003)

I rather agree with this,actually. General moves so fast that often times a thread that in P&P would have garnered some very good responses over a few days are washed away by the rather larger number of posts that hit general.
I definately see why it was done, as it it is easier on the server and is one less place to moderate, but I would like to see it return. Heck, you don't know me from Elminster, but I'll moderate it


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## Tonguez (Dec 17, 2003)

Yep just another meek and gentle request to seperate Plots/Places out again

Two reasons
1. Plots and Places was good for ideas (maybe combine it with Rogues gallery instead?)

2. The General boards are now a mess! a thread can be posted in the morning and then be pushed to page 3 within a couple of hours. Its chaos out there!


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## Chacal (Dec 17, 2003)

I feel like we lost  Plot and places, too.

 As it stands now, 
it's no more useful as a resource, because only the threads' starters and some of the contributors can remember  them.


I would  have understood if it was made as a subforum of General RPG Discussion, 
or even better if fitting topics that were drowned in GeneralRPG  would have been moved to Plot and Places (I know, I know,  That's quite another burden on the moderator's shoulders).




Chacal, missing the good 'ol plot 'n places


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## Mystery Man (Dec 17, 2003)

I like it in the general forum better. It's right where anyone who has something to contribute can see it and jot something down rather than have to go to a specific place. This'll probably get moved to meta....


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## Berandor (Dec 17, 2003)

I also think it's good here. Even with an own subforum, a lot of threads here were Plots&Places-worthy. I agree with the reasoning that a good chunk of posts in General are P&P, anyway, and are responsible for a lot of the flavor is this forum, as well.
My party's in a tight spot.
DM burnout.
etc.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 17, 2003)

All the more reason to read Meta, where this was brought up some time ago - at least a month, if not more.


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## Chacal (Dec 17, 2003)

Berandor said:
			
		

> I also think it's good here. Even with an own subforum, a lot of threads here were Plots&Places-worthy. I agree with the reasoning that a good chunk of posts in General are P&P, anyway, and are responsible for a lot of the flavor is this forum, as well.
> My party's in a tight spot.
> DM burnout.
> etc.



I agree a lot of threads here are Plot and Places worthy, but they're still in the minority. At the moment I can only count a couple of them in the first page. I'm not sure they'll still be here in a few hours.


Plot and Places threads are seldom very active topics, so they're quite doomed in the current configuration.


It could be cool if vbulletin handled links (like the "moved") but that would refresh if the thread is updated.

That way you could have a subforum with links to Plot_n_places threads that would stay in General Discussion.

Better of both worlds 



Chacal, spoiled user always aking for more


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## Chacal (Dec 17, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> All the more reason to read Meta, where this was brought up some time ago - at least a month, if not more.




Yep, and  it was before the change. Now we can talk about the effects of the change, not just speculate.
We might have wait a bit more to draw conclusions though.
I agree that this should go to meta after some exposure. (I like moved threads, they motivate checking other forums, at least for me) 



Chacal


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## DMScott (Dec 17, 2003)

Berandor said:
			
		

> I also think it's good here. Even with an own subforum, a lot of threads here were Plots&Places-worthy.




Maybe, but as somebody who checks the boards a couple of times a day I'm sure I miss most of them. One of the attractions of Plots and Places was the very low churn rate - a DM could post something, get responses over a couple of days, maybe find an old post still on the first page that had some useful ideas, and then go and try things. The DM then picks up the discussion a month later to tell how things went, and everybody has the whole thread to reference without trouble. Here a thread that doesn't get bumps every ten minutes is banished to the nether pages in short order.

If a low-traffic "thoughtful" board is a waste of server resources, then fair enough - the folks footing the bill have every right to make that call. But P&P wasn't merged in any meaningful sense, it's gone.


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## Psion (Dec 17, 2003)

I think I have to agree with the notion of returning it to its own forum. At first, moving it off of of the general forum meant less replies, but it seemed to go up after it was renamed to what it really was.  I think in the final analysis, it was better off as its own forum.

Some more vigilant enforcement of moving threads that really belong there will both keep the traffic in the forum up and address the concern "there were threads here that belonged there anyways."


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## Michael Morris (Dec 17, 2003)

Doesn't this go in Meta?


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## Piratecat (Dec 17, 2003)

Indeed it does.


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## Tom Cashel (Dec 17, 2003)

I agree with moving it to it's own spot.  It worked better for DMs trying to keep their sinister ideas "out of the limelight," as it were.  Some of us have posting players who dog our every step.


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## Archade (Dec 17, 2003)

I posted a thread on campaign plots yesterday (or the day before), and it got two replies total.  Within two hours it was on page 3 of the general message threads.

I agree that Plots & Places had slow traffic, but in general, we're pedalling bicycles on the freeway.

Blair / Archade


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 17, 2003)

Archade said:
			
		

> I agree that Plots & Places had slow traffic, but in general, we're pedalling bicycles on the freeway.



You forgot to mention that *18* wheeler rolling down upon you…  

I also agree it needs it’s own space even if it’s traffic is slower.


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## Michael Morris (Dec 17, 2003)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> You forgot to mention that 16 wheeler rolling down upon you…
> 
> I also agree it needs it’s own space even if it’s traffic is slower.




18 wheeler.  A 16 wheeler doesn't exist, though 14 wheelers do.  Truck axles come in sets of 4 wheels with the sole exception of the steer tires, hence 6, 10, 14, 18 wheelers and so on.  Most I've driven was a 22 wheeler.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 17, 2003)

Michael Morris said:
			
		

> 18 wheeler.  A 16 wheeler doesn't exist, though 14 wheelers do.  Truck axles come in sets of 4 wheels with the sole exception of the steer tires, hence 6, 10, 14, 18 wheelers and so on.  Most I've driven was a 22 wheeler.





I think your neglecting your chalkboard their... 

To be honest i can't belive I messed that up...


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## 1st Ed (Dec 17, 2003)

I also would like Plots to have its own board.


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## Davelozzi (Dec 17, 2003)

I support the merge.  I always felt like it wasn't even worthwhile to post in that forum because it was so low traffic.  I think it's better off in general.


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## stevelabny (Dec 17, 2003)

i dont see the problem with a thread falling to page 3?

the posts are DATED.

just teach everyone to check back as far as since they were last online and subscribe to threads theyre interested in and you wont have ANY problems.

if everyone figured out how to use their computer to get this far, it shouldnt be much harder.

i wouldnt want the opinion of someone whos too lazy to look past page 1. his short attention span would probably be against any fo the games I play in.


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## Chacal (Dec 17, 2003)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> i dont see the problem with a thread falling to page 3?
> 
> the posts are DATED.
> 
> ...




I'would have answered your points if I hadn't such a short attention span.
Unfortunately I just can remember your insults.

Nice contribution



Chacal


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## der_kluge (Dec 17, 2003)

Maybe the solution is to make Plots & Places a subforum of General?

The other solution might be to create a PLOTS tag picture?  That way, I could identify those threads easier.  As it is, there isn't one.

I didn't like P&P in its own forum, because no one ever read it.  And then I would read someone miss-posting a thread in General, that should have been in P&P, and would get jealous because the guy would get 50 replies in a day, and my post properly placed in P&P would linger on for hours and hours before getting even one reply.


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## stevelabny (Dec 17, 2003)

Chacal said:
			
		

> I'would have answered your points if I hadn't such a short attention span.Unfortunately I just can remember your insults.Nice contribution
> Chacal




Someone must be upset because he didnt see Return of the King last night.

Insults plural? I said that people who dont look beyond the first page are lazy. Other than that I was giving the average ENWorld member credit for being smart enough to find and follow threads theyre interested in.  Lazy by definition is NOT an insult, just an adjective. For example, "I often dont use apostrophes because Im lazy." If you choose to view lazy as an insult, I wont finish this sentence because ANYTHING I say would be viewed as an insult. But that would still make only ONE (1) insult. So I'm at a loss. Although I do find it highly amusing that someone who is apparently so offended by my "insults" would turn around and sarcastically attack my post as a "nice contribution".  Way to be consistent.

My points are perfectly valid.
Anyone who uses the "page 3" excuse IS just being lazy.
How is checking the first page of 3 different forums any different than checking the first 3 pages of one forum?
As previously stated, the average P&P thread posted in General was getting MORE responses than similar threads in P&P. 
If a thread on General gets few responses its not because it got lost, its because people just werent interested in it. Because every reply bumps it back up to the top and almost every ENWorld member reads the general forum.
We've all started threads that were DOA. Its nothing to be embarassed by, and its definately not the boards fault. Not every thread is a winner. Sorry.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 17, 2003)

Here's the problem I have with seperating them again.  People would post things in General that _really_ belonged in P&P far more often than all the other similar mis-placed posts.  The mods never actually moved anything to P&P, and so by default it became acceptable to post such things in General.  Finally, nobody seemed to complain about the number of posts that should have been in P&P that were in General.

And as I implied with my post above, this was something that was mentioned quite a while ago - not like some of the other board movements.  The time to get in on the discussion was then, not now.  It's done, and it would be silly to go and re-seperate the boards.  Not to mention that moving all the threads back would have to be done manually, I suppose.

At first I also thought that perhaps Morrus should have done something like a poll on the front page, or as an announcement in the forums.  Then I got to thinking - if people don't bother reading Meta, the forum about the forums, then they can't be all that interested in the workings of them.  Maybe this will actually get people reading the forum.


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## Wraith Form (Dec 17, 2003)

Berandor said:
			
		

> I also think it's good here. Even with an own subforum, a lot of threads here were Plots&Places-worthy. I agree with the reasoning that a good chunk of posts in General are P&P, anyway, and are responsible for a lot of the flavor is this forum, as well.
> My party's in a tight spot.
> DM burnout.
> etc.



If "a lot of the threads" in General Discussion were "P&P-worthy," isn't it a moderator's job to move them to the P&P forum?  Doesn't it make more sense to separate the polls, off-topics and, uh, General Discussion from the P&P-type posts and give them their own forums to exist in?

 I guess that's what's always confused me about the General Discussion forum--I often saw posts that should have been lumped in with P&P instead of staying in GD.

 The first step is to make people aware of the forum and encourage them to post in the appropriate place.  The second step is to have the moderators "weed out" (using their best judgement) the P&P from the GD and move the posts if they're inappropriately located.  Soon, people will start to get the idea, and P&P will gain more traffic while the thread-cow that is GD will settle to a slightly more dull roar.

 Don'tcha think?


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## der_kluge (Dec 17, 2003)

This begs the question - if Plots and Places never existed, would people be currently complaining that plot-related threads be moved to a separate forum?

I don't think so.


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## MerakSpielman (Dec 17, 2003)

The main benefit of P&P seemed to be that the players didn't go there that often, so it was a lot easier for DMs to conspire with each other in semi-secret. That's not a very good reason to bring it back, though.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 18, 2003)

Ignoring General's sorta random content,

Plots and Places, Rogues Gallery, and House rules all contained similar useful information that doesn't "mesh" with the speed of General Discussion. I'd rather have seen all 3 as one single forum. Just IMHO.


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## LightPhoenix (Dec 18, 2003)

Wraith Form said:
			
		

> If "a lot of the threads" in General Discussion were "P&P-worthy," isn't it a moderator's job to move them to the P&P forum?



Yes, it was.  The moderators hardly ever did so though, and thus it became acceptable.



> The first step is to make people aware of the forum and encourage them to post in the appropriate place. The second step is to have the moderators "weed out" (using their best judgement) the P&P from the GD and move the posts if they're inappropriately located. Soon, people will start to get the idea, and P&P will gain more traffic while the thread-cow that is GD will settle to a slightly more dull roar.
> 
> Don'tcha think?



One, if people are too lazy to scroll down and see what other forums exist, that's their problem, not Morrus's, the moderators', or ours.

Two, as I said above, weeding out the P&P posts would be extremely impractical at this point, since it would have to be done by hand, and you'd have to go through an extreme number of posts (at time of writing, around 510,000).  This is nigh impossible.  P&P is gone, the only way it would come back to life as a forum with no posts in it.


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## Eosin the Red (Dec 18, 2003)

I had asked about this earlier but will reiterate myself here to keep current on the topic, since if you don't post apparently you are no longer allowed to have an opinion about something.

P&P threads are fated to be swallowed in GD. They are typically long and involved, often not even requiring a reply. Simply something that you read and noted. I replied to a thread 2 days ago in general since I occassionaly look at it for ideas (even though I had never posted to it before because I saw no need to post to it, it was there and I knew how to get to it) now that topic is on page 7 and it took me no small amount of searching to figure that out.

P&P is generally homebrew stuff. I might not read one of the monster posts for several days becase I don't have the time to sit still and really digest the essay, that does not mean that I don't have an interest in it or that I am lazy because I can't remember every topic that I wanted to look at when it is buried nearly 200 posts deep. If the topic was FR or GH or something similar the hordes of masses would keep the topic afloat but these little gems of personal inspiration  (good and bad) will just never recieve the volume of posts that is required to stay afloat in GD. Like the rogues gallery or the story hours readership does not require replies, and like many of the RG threads good posts might only contain 5-6 replies and maybe even none at all. It does not diminish value of a posters contribution just cause the thread sinks in GD...In fact, replies have no relationship to the quality of a RG or PP thread. 

I can live with the loss of P&P but hearing the folks who never used it say "tough, live with it in GD you lazy bum" is galling. We could just have one great big ENworld forum for all topics but we don't....why.... to organize things and make them easier to find. Those (apparently few) of us who used P&P feel no different than the rogues gallery folks would feel if they were outed into GD or the Story Hour folks if they were forced into the big blue of GD. Voicing those feelings to the HMF's of ENworld and getting replies of...."Quit being lazy" "You should have been checking out meta before the switch" and "I never did use them so I don't see what you are complaining about" is really petty. What does it matter to you if we voice the opinion that we lost something we like? Will it hurt you if we have P&P restored because enough people liked it and voiced that opinion? Does it somehow make your experience at ENWorld less for others to have something they like that you do not? If you feel that my being lazy is somehow something you need to personally oppose why not let us all stop being lazy and just merge all of enworld into one buzy forum? Afterall, what is the difference between looking at 18 seperate forums and looking at 18 pages of the same forum? 

The calls to "lump it" by other board members is downright obnoxious. Kinda like the person who goes to the "Why I love X" thread and feels that he or she JUST HAS to post "X sucks, I hate and anyone with half a brain would also hate and here is why."  Some people liked P&P and they are members of ENworld and should feel that they can speak their mind to the powers that be about the loss without being told "You should have read meta months ago" or "Quit being lazy" - since I was told how I should behave reguarding this perhaps it would be appropriate of me to tell some folks what they should do? I could probably think of something but I am afraid Eric's Grandmother would not approve.


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## stevelabny (Dec 18, 2003)

I think I've figured out the problem.
People don't seem to be aware that you can SUBSCRIBE to a thread without replying to it.
If you see a thread that looks interesting, scroll all the way down to the bottom of the page and click SUBSCIRBE TO THIS THREAD.
You can choose to get e-mail notification of replies to a thread youre interested in with every new reply, or daily or weekly.
Also if you go to your ENWorld user page (click USER CP at the top toolbar), you can see a listing of all posts you are currently subscribed to...and that also has a function that lets you further back....all the way back to the beginning of the new EN WORLD boards.

So if you like a thread SUBSCRIBE TO IT!!! It can never be lost again.

This is a standard function on ALL message boards. (although I bet most don't let you check that far back) 

So I apologize for calling people lazy, it seems that maybe they  just don't know how to use ENWorld. 

Maybe we should hold a tutorial? Or put a sticky at the top of each page for a month that explains how to do this? and then send it out in an e-mail to all new members?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Dec 18, 2003)

Steve, works great if you’re logged on 24 seven and you scan GD at least once an hour.


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## stevelabny (Dec 18, 2003)

if you only get on once a week and want to read every thread, why wouldnt you just scroll through all 20 pages youve missed? 
Even if they were split like they used to be, you would have 2 pages of P&P and a bunch of P&P threads in GD. 
GD has always been 1/3 off-topic, 1/3 P&P stuff out of place, 1/6 other stuff out of place and 1/6 "general".  Now that the off-topics have been moved and the other out of place stuff is being cracked down on, MOST of GD is P&P stuff. The only other posts are book reviews/suggestions and survey/opinion type threads.

I mean really, what else would go in general?
Thats the reason why P&P was always empty. Most people considered those threads to be general discussion.


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## Gez (Dec 18, 2003)

Damn.



			
				Me said:
			
		

> I would have liked to see Plots & Places absorbed by Rogues Gallery rather than General Discussion.
> 
> People, Plots, and Places, PPP, it has a ring to it. Well. Maybe for the next shuffling.




I post this in a thread, and on the morrow, there's another thread with this very subject, that's already two pages long.


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## thol (Dec 19, 2003)

i will reiterate what i said in another post about this same subject:

the thread topics that used to go into Plots & Places were slow moving and understandably so. that was the nature of the threads there, they developed with alot more thought, and over more time,  than most threads. the problem now is that i don't see anyone posting threads of that nature in the general forum, as they will get lost quickly, and thus we will lose alot of the general creative spewing that used to reside here. the nature of the General forum is a fast paced environment, and i know alot of us don't have the time to scan endless pages of it to find useful threads.

i really think the solution is that Plots & Places should have been renamed "DM's Corner: Plots, Places, Characters, NPCs, and general DMery" or somesuch, and put in the main cluster of forums at the top, in place of, and incorporating, the Rogues Gallery.

i would bet it would get much more traffic with its spot, as well as a wider spectrum of content, while not having overwhelming overturn of threads.

this may not seem that important to alot of people, but i really think it is to the creativity and sharing of ideas that is the basis for this site and these forums.


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