# Creating a +2 Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone)



## Kreln (Apr 30, 2003)

I have a player who wants to create a Stone of Good Luck (Luckstone) that would grant +2 luck bonus on saving throws, ability checks and skill checks (instead of the standard +1 bonus).

In reading over the "Adding New Abilities" section of the DMG (pg. 246), it appears that he may be able to "add" the abilities of a Luckstone to a Luckstone that he's already created (thus granting a +2 luck bonus).  Would the cost of creating this item be the cost of the original Luckstone plus the cost of a new Luckstone, or would it be the cost of the original Luckstone plus double the cost of a new Luckstone (as if the item takes up a specific space on a character)??

It seems to me that adding powers to an item that does not take up a specific character space (such as a Luckstone) would be an easy way to unbalance things by adding powers traditionally tied to a ring or amulet to a non-space taking item (for example- just having the Luckstone on his person would grant the powers of the Luckstone plus the ring and amulet).

While this isn't the players intent right now (he just wants to create a Luckstone that grants higher save bonuses), I fear that allowing him to create such an item will lead to future abuses of the magic item creation system (i.e. adding ring powers to stones, etc.).

Any thoughts on how this should be handled?


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## Mali (Apr 30, 2003)

I am slightly unsure of the exact costs to produce such an item, however I do know that it would cost 20,000gp to buy. The buying cost is broken down like this:

+2 Luck Bonus= 2x2= 4x2,500gp (taken from the creating magic items sections)= 10,000gp if it takes up a specific slot, however as it does not take up a specific slot then you double the cost of the item to 20,000gp. 

The cost of adding abilities to items that are already magical is very expensive, you double the cost of the ability to be added on. For example (and taken from the DMG) if you had a +1 Ring of Protection and wanted to add invisibilty at will (as per the ring of invisibilty) it would cost you 40,000gp (double the 20,000gp usual cost of the ring of invisibility). It is unlikely that players will ever have this much cash lying around spare, and so it will not unbalanace the game


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## dcollins (Apr 30, 2003)

It's true that there's language which allows additional defined powers to be added to an item. However, luck bonuses don't stack (DMG p. 177), so if you effectively have two _stones of good luck_, the total bonus is still just +1.

Allowing a _stone of good luck_ at a higher total bonus would be a "new item" and require a house-rule on the DMs' part to allow it (more commentary: www.superdan.net/dndfaq3.html ). 

If so allowed, as a starting suggestion, it should probably follow the standard "bonus squared" system (DMG p. 242) and be priced somewhere on the order of 40,000 gp for a +2 _stone of good luck_.


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## hong (Apr 30, 2003)

Cost breakdown for stone of good luck +1:

+1 luck bonus to saves: 2,500
+1 luck bonus to skill checks: 2,500
Total: 5,000
x2 for unslotted item: 10,000


Cost breakdown for stone of good luck +2:

+2 luck bonus to saves: 10,000 (2^2 * 2,500)
+2 luck bonus to skill checks: 10,000
Total: 20,000
x2 for unslotted item: 40,000


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## Zhure (May 1, 2003)

or, more simply.

luck stone bonus squared x 10,000 gp.

+1 = 10,000
+2 = 40,000
+3 = 90,000
+4 = 160,000
+5 = 250,000

By comparison, a Skin of the Hero is only 68,000 gp...

Skin of the Hero: This psychoactive skin continually grants the wearer a +3 luck bonus to AC, a +3 luck bonus on all saving throws, and a +3 luck bonus on attack rolls.
Manifester Level: 18th; Prerequisites: Craft Universal Item, fate of one; Market Price: 68,000 gp; Weight: 2 lb.
:goes back to the calculator:


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## Kreln (May 1, 2003)

*Creation Rules*

I have a document on magical item creation rules that I believe came from someone at WotC (although I don't really remember where I downloaded it).

These rules state the following:

    Chakra: "Chakra" is the unofficial WotC term for "space that a magic item uses as defined on DMG page 176"--boots, cloak, amulet, and so on. The pricing guidelines assume that a magic item uses a chakra. An item that doesn't use a chakra (like an ioun stone) costs twice as much as a chakra item.

    Hands as Chakra: Although not a chakra space listed in the DMG, an item that must be held in a hand to be activated counts as a chakra point. This is because you can only have two hand-chakra items active at once, and to switch to another hand-chakra item you'd have to spend an action to do so (just as if you wanted to put on a different amulet).

    Multiple Abilities in One Item: An amulet of natural armor +2 and a belt of giant strength +4 each use one chakra. If you were to make an amulet of natural armor +2 and giant strength +4, obviously this item is more valuable than the sum of its parts because you now have the belt chakra available for another item that you could wear. This "bonus value" is handled in the pricing rules.

        1. Compare all of the component prices as if they were separate items.
        2. The most expensive property cost does not change.
        3. All other property costs are doubled.
        4. The sum of these costs is the cost for the entire item.
        5. If the item doesn't use a chakra space, remember to double the final cost.


So since the Luckstone is not a chakra item (it just needs to be in the players possession to function) you would take the base cost of a Luckstone (10,000), add double the base cost for an additional luckstone (20,000) and then multiply the whole thing by 2 for the final cost (60,000).

This seems to make sense (following those rules), but there are differing prices listed in the posts above (with 40,000 seeming to be the most popular price).


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## Hypersmurf (May 1, 2003)

*Re: Creation Rules*



> *This seems to make sense (following those rules)*




Perhaps, but it's pointless, since - as has been pointed out - luck bonuses don't stack.

It's like saying "I have a +1 sword, which cost 2000gp.  Now, I could get it improved to +2 - that's 8000gp, so it would cost me 6000gp extra.  Or, I could get an extra +1 added.  Double cost for a second power, so double 2000 is 4000 - I just saved 2000gp!"

Except it wouldn't work even if you could do it, because your sword would have two +1 enhancement bonuses, which don't stack, instead of a single +2 enhancement bonus.

(Incidentally, that's why no magic item should ever grant a Dodge bonus...)

-Hyp.


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## Kreln (May 2, 2003)

I don't believe the restrictions on stacking bonuses would apply to the creation of a new magical item.  If you create 2 unique magical items then the Luck bonuses would not stack, but why shouldn't you be able to create a new magical item that grants a higher level Luck bonus?

If this stacking restriction applied to all magical items then you would never have any item that granted a bonus of more than +1.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2003)

> *I don't believe the restrictions on stacking bonuses would apply to the creation of a new magical item.*




Of course they would.



> *If you create 2 unique magical items then the Luck bonuses would not stack, but why shouldn't you be able to create a new magical item that grants a higher level Luck bonus?*




The guidelines for doing so are what gives the price of 40K, not 60K.



> *If this stacking restriction applied to all magical items then you would never have any item that granted a bonus of more than +1. *




No, you can create an item that has a bonus of more than +1.  You can't create an item that has two identical +1 bonuses and expect them to stack, which is what you were doing.

The only exception to that is the stat-boosting books, because of the quirky way Wish-Stacking works.

-Hyp.


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## dcollins (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Creation Rules*



			
				Kreln said:
			
		

> *I have a document on magical item creation rules that I believe came from someone at WotC (although I don't really remember where I downloaded it).
> *




Kreln, just so you know -- you don't have to turn to some unknown source, everything you quoted is in essence within the pricing guidelines for "new items" on DMG p. 243 (errata-inclusive). Also note that these are only guidelines, so it's expected behavior that every DM can come up with a different number for any "new item".

However, note that the doubling (or "100% increase") in added ability prices do not apply for items which _don't_ take up a slot, such as the _luckstone_, so your analysis is off on that score. Hong's count above is more correct in this vein.


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## Hypersmurf (May 2, 2003)

*Re: Creation Rules*



> *        5. If the item doesn't use a chakra space, remember to double the final cost.
> 
> So since the Luckstone is not a chakra item (it just needs to be in the players possession to function) you would take the base cost of a Luckstone (10,000), add double the base cost for an additional luckstone (20,000) and then multiply the whole thing by 2 for the final cost (60,000).*




I knew there was something bothering me!

A slotted Luckstone would only cost 5000.  Step 5 is already built into the 10k cost you're starting with.  So that final doubling you're doing to get 60k is wrong.

As well as dcollins' point about not needing the 100% increase to add a power to an unslotted item.

So to create a luckstone with two non-stackable +1 bonuses - one useful, one redundant - to saves and checks is only 20k, not 60k.

A luckstone with a +2 bonus to saves and checks, however, is 40k.

-Hyp.


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## Kreln (May 2, 2003)

It's beginning to make some sense to me now.

For some reason I didn't take notice to Table 8-40 in the DMG (pg. 242), which lists the formula for calculating a luck bonus (Bonus squared x 2,500 gp).  This seems to match the breakdown that Hong has listed above.

However, the description for the Luckstone lists a Luck bonus to Saving Throws, Ability Checks and Skill Checks.  Hong's breakdown calculated the cost as follows:



> Cost breakdown for stone of good luck +1:
> 
> +1 luck bonus to saves: 2,500
> +1 luck bonus to skill checks: 2,500
> ...




Is the +1 bonus to ability checks included in the skill checks cost?  If not then the cost for a +1 Luckstone using that formula would be:

+1 luck bonus to saves: 2,500
+1 luck bonus to skill checks: 2,500
+1 luck bonus to ability checks: 2,500
Total: 7,500
x2 for unslotted item: 15,000


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 2, 2003)

> Is the +1 bonus to ability checks included in the skill checks cost? If not then the cost for a +1 Luckstone using that formula would be



Probably, these are two different bonus. Remember, a creature with a nonability does always fail ability checks on that ability, but it can still gain Skills for it and does not automatically fail these checks. (Like Undead Spellcasters and Concentration).

Maybe it would be easier if you drop these different sources of bonus, and instead create a new one:
Luck Bonus to every roll made with D20 without needing any slots: 10.000 gp.

Anyway, it is mathematically uninteresting how you get the base price, unless their is a fix cost that doesn`t increase with level (like the base price for a Masterwork Longsword if you enhance your weapon).

40.000 cr seems to be the way to go...

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Ridley's Cohort (May 4, 2003)

Kreln said:
			
		

> *
> Is the +1 bonus to ability checks included in the skill checks cost?  If not then the cost for a +1 Luckstone using that formula would be:
> 
> +1 luck bonus to saves: 2,500
> ...




Yes.  I believe the logic is that an Ability Check is really just a skillless Skill Check.  Many skills explicitly replaced ability checks under the right circumstances.

Balancewise, strict Ability Checks are too rare to justify a separate category.


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