# Does TSR3 Have Nazi Connections?



## Faolyn (May 17, 2022)

For anyone who doesn't want to actually go to the site--and I don't blame you, it definitely calls for some brain bleach afterwards--in _addition _to the nazi imagery and the racist, homophobic, and transphobic imagery, there's insults for basically _everyone: _there's Islamophobia, misogyny, ableism, fat shaming, and more.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2022)

In case anyone's curious but doesn't want to click on the link: This is not subtle. This is not dogwhistles. This is not "if you read between the lines" or "place it in context with other posts" or anything like that. This is a collection of overt, blatant, and straightforward declarations of the worst and most vile hate you can possibly think of directed at pretty much every single marginalized group in the most disgusting ways possible.


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## Dire Bare (May 17, 2022)

Faolyn said:


> For anyone who doesn't want to actually go to the site--and I don't blame you, it definitely calls for some brain bleach afterwards--in _addition _to the nazi imagery and the racist, homophobic, and transphobic imagery, there's insults for basically _everyone: _there's Islamophobia, misogyny, ableism, fat shaming, and more.



Well, you know, when you want to be awful . . . go all in, don't hold back.

And again, TSR3 shows they are still in the game. The hateful, toxic, and incompetent game.


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## Jedion357 (May 17, 2022)

It's pretty hideous, you need a shower afterward. I did a video digging into the white supremacy woven into the limited info released on SF NG


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## Parmandur (May 17, 2022)

Doesn't surprise me. ..


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## Jedion357 (May 17, 2022)

It cannot be understated how bad the material is - stuff like "Hitler was right" and blatant use of the N word.


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## bonchon (May 17, 2022)

This certainly puts more context on the video that @Jedion357 posted above.

Without knowing the background of the creator, the dog whistles in Star Frontiers New Genesis might be explained away. When you see into the mind of the author, it really changes things.

Calling out a few notable dog whistles or maybe even not such subtle things, as mentioned in Jedion's video, here's some of the SFNG lore in Alarms & Journeys:

The organization for the "good guys" goes by two names - the *Confederation of Civilized Peoples*, and later the *United Confederation of Planets & Systems*. Their starships get the moniker *CSS*, which just happens to be the same letters warships had for the Confederate States of America.

The positive mention of eugenics, and of the "Nordics" who come to save the Confederation all sounds a lot more sinister now that I've seen Dave Johnson's tweets.

There's quite an obsession in the text with "purity" and "health," and a disdain for "weakness." The whole narrative about milk even has a bizarre neo-Nazi connection: Milk, a symbol of neo-Nazi hate

I don't know what I was expecting out of SFNG, but coded neo-nazi propaganda was definitely not on my bingo card.


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

This kind of person is the reason a significant portion of the population cannot ever be or feel truly safe.

He and other Nazis like him want us dead. That's their politics that's their goal.

Self Defense is the only defense we can have, these days.

Anywho, yeah. If I wasn't going to buy anything from TSR and their attendants, before... now I'll be cutting people out of my life who do.


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## LordEntrails (May 17, 2022)

My first question is, for those of interest, how reliable has that Twitter account been linked t the SFNG author Dave Johnson? Strong enough to hold up in court? Almost certainly? Probably? Likely? Possible? or less?

And then the regardless of that; who's surprised? I mean come on, we already knew these people are hateful and ugly and <add your own word>. Is it it really going to change how anyone interacts with these folks? Not me.


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## Deset Gled (May 17, 2022)

Lets not forget this gem that NuTSR posted on Facebook (and Discord IIRC) on Feb 13, stating that interstellar government in SF:NG officially supports slavery:



> #starfrontiers #scifiart #scifi
> UCPS Star Law:
> 
> Order 1 According to the UCPS on the Law of Space: “No space may validly purport to subject any part of space to its sovereignty.” ... Rather than belonging to nowhere, international space kind of belong to everywhere under the principles of freedom of space.
> ...


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## bonchon (May 17, 2022)

Steampunkette said:


> This kind of person is the reason a significant portion of the population cannot ever be or feel truly safe.
> 
> He and other Nazis like him want us dead. That's their politics that's their goal.
> 
> ...




You're right. There are tweets from Dave Johnson praising the alt-right terrorist who rammed their car into the crowd at Charlottesville and killed someone, tweets "jokingly" showing a mother drowning her child for being transgender, talking about killing "homosexuals," even saying dialysis should be denied to anyone who can't work.

He's got a lot of "replacement theory" stuff, too - the same ideology that drove the mass shooter in Buffalo.

This is beyond disgusting. It's evil.


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## Mallus (May 17, 2022)

Well this is certainly egg on Justin LaNasa’s face.

Or should I say egg whites? Separated from the colored bits. Wouldn’t want to suggest any of that shameful egg-mixing was going on.

It almost makes me wish he had a career in gaming to ruin.


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## bonchon (May 17, 2022)

LordEntrails said:


> My first question is, for those of interest, how reliable has that Twitter account been linked t the SFNG author Dave Johnson? Strong enough to hold up in court? Almost certainly? Probably? Likely? Possible? or less?
> 
> And then the regardless of that; who's surprised? I mean come on, we already knew these people are hateful and ugly and <add your own word>. Is it it really going to change how anyone interacts with these folks? Not me.




The site has evidence showing it is him. It uses the same name he uses for all his social media (@DaveFilmsUS) and he posted both photos of himself and videos of himself which aren't posted anywhere else.


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## adamantyr (May 17, 2022)

A repeat of what happened a few years ago with Judge's Guild... Bob Bledsaw II revealed his racist, bigoted alt-right side and ended any chance of JG ever returning to prominence.

Surprisingly, this is worse.


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## Hex08 (May 17, 2022)

Why do these people have to poop on all of my fond TSR childhood memories?


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## doctorbadwolf (May 17, 2022)

Faolyn said:


> For anyone who doesn't want to actually go to the site--and I don't blame you, it definitely calls for some brain bleach afterwards--in _addition _to the nazi imagery and the racist, homophobic, and transphobic imagery, there's insults for basically _everyone: _there's Islamophobia, misogyny, ableism, fat shaming, and more.



Of course. 

All I can say, here, is that tolerance doesn't extend to nazis or nazi sympathizers, because they want to burn the rest of us down and build their "pure" future on our ashes.


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## J.Quondam (May 17, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Why do these people have to poop on all of my fond TSR childhood memories?



On the bright side, aside from misappropriating the letters "T", "S" and "R", these guys have nothing to do with anyone's genuine gaming memories.


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## J.Quondam (May 17, 2022)

Given how awful the stuff on that Twitter feed is, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down entirely. Surely it violates all sorts of Twitter's TOS?


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## jgsugden (May 17, 2022)

It would be good to never hear anything about these people ever again.  I fear they're benefiting from the bad publicity.  It is keeping them in the news when they deserve to fade away.


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Given how awful the stuff on that Twitter feed is, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down entirely. Surely it violates all sorts of Twitter's TOS?











						Twitter Won't Treat White Supremacy Like ISIS Because It'd Have to Ban Some GOP Politicians Too
					

A Twitter employee who works on machine learning believes that a proactive, algorithmic solution to white supremacy would also catch Republican politicians.




					www.vice.com
				




They don't activate their auto-banhammer on white supremacists 'cause it would ban politicians and members of their party.


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> On the bright side, aside from misappropriating the letters "T", "S" and "R", these guys have nothing to do with anyone's genuine gaming memories.



They're actively trying to convince a court that they are the old TSR "reborn" (their word choice, not mine).

I never thought I'd be rooting for the side of the multi-billion dollar corporation in any lawsuit, but holy crap do I want Hasbro to crush these guys into dust.



J.Quondam said:


> Given how awful the stuff on that Twitter feed is, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down entirely. Surely it violates all sorts of Twitter's TOS?



Yes, but someone has to actively report them. He's been flying under the radar for some time, and seems to enjoy living in his own echo chamber... it's likely the only people listening to his crap are people who agree with it.


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## hunter1828 (May 17, 2022)

As an historian, I've spent several decades reading and researching some of the worst aspects of human history and I've developed a pretty strong stomach for certain imagery. But the imagery in that link turned my stomach in ways few other things ever have. I had to just stop because I just couldn't finish going through it.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

my god this goes so far beyond the game...this is true evil


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## TheAlkaizer (May 17, 2022)

I can understand individuals having certain experiences, or upbringings and ending up have a disdain against a specific group. You don't excuse it, you don't approve it, but you can rationally understand. But I honestly cannot fathom being so full of hate against so many people. The amount of energy and time it takes to post such things, it shows dedication, how can you dedicate yourself to something so vile.


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## HammerMan (May 17, 2022)

Abstruse said:


> In case anyone's curious but doesn't want to click on the link: This is not subtle. This is not dogwhistles.



Thank you. I am sure that it would cause issues if I clicked but I would have wondered


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## vecna00 (May 17, 2022)

I'm not surprised by any of this.


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## Faolyn (May 17, 2022)

vecna00 said:


> I'm not surprised by any of this.



I must admit to being surprised it was so blatant. I mean, we knew he was bigoted from earlier tweets he's made. But I don't think most of us knew just _how _bad he was.


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## dragoner (May 17, 2022)

I saw it posted on twitter, how truly awful, I had no idea.


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## Deset Gled (May 17, 2022)

jgsugden said:


> It would be good to never hear anything about these people ever again.  I fear they're benefiting from the bad publicity.  It is keeping them in the news when they deserve to fade away.




Unfortunately, the name "TSR" will keep them alive even if we ignore them.  They have already gotten their name (along with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum) onto Wikipedia, Forbes' website, and into local travel media in the Lake Geneva area like madison.com and Yelp.  Their convention sponged off of GaryCon with minor but measurably real success, and even got at least one website to completely conflate the two conventions.  There are lots of people that will be suckered in by the name "TSR" alone.  The target market isn't people like us, it's people who will visit their museum and buy their stuff online just based on the trademark and nostalgia.  That's why WotC's legal battle against them is so important; ignoring them will not make the problem go away.

That being said, I do try and avoiding typing the name of Dave Johnson's magazine into the internet as much as possible.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> Unfortunately, the name "TSR" will keep them alive even if we ignore them.  They have already gotten their name (along with the Dungeon Hobby Shop Museum) onto Wikipedia, Forbes' website, and into local travel media in the Lake Geneva area like madison.com and Yelp.  There are lots of people that will be suckered in by the name alone.  The target market isn't people like us, it's people who will visit their museum and buy their stuff online based on the name alone.  That's why WotC's legal battle against them is so important; ignoring them will not make the problem go away.
> 
> That being said, I do try and avoiding typing out the name of Dave Johnson's magazine into the internet as much as possible.



This is pretty much it. Without the name of "TSR", nobody would have noticed these guys and the only thing that would've gotten reported about them was Ernie Gygax's live stream. Once the lawsuit finishes and they lose the trademark (which it's highly unlikely for the trial to go any other way), they won't be "TSR" anymore unless they keep using the trademark in violation of the court order. At that point, they'll quickly vanish outside the little niche of problematic, toxic creators.


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

In case anyone is doubting the authenticity, there are a few Twitter posts that track with his Facebook posts. Like these, posted on the same day.

ETA: And he kept location tracking on in Twitter.


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## hunter1828 (May 17, 2022)

Abstruse said:


> This is pretty much it. Without the name of "TSR", nobody would have noticed these guys and the only thing that would've gotten reported about them was Ernie Gygax's live stream. Once the lawsuit finishes and they lose the trademark (which it's highly unlikely for the trial to go any other way), they won't be "TSR" anymore unless they keep using the trademark in violation of the court order. At that point, they'll quickly vanish outside the little niche of problematic, toxic creators.



But that shouldn't be the end of it. Out of sight, out of mind shouldn't be the end goal for people like this. I don't want them gone from the small circle that is tabletop gamers and creators; I want them, and their hateful kind removed from mainstream society as a whole. I don't want them influencing or being influenced by others like them to commit heinous crimes like those in Buffalo or Laguna Woods in the past few days. As someone who is of Native heritage, who is pansexual, who is overweight, who is an outspoken liberal, I am among several of his and his kind's targeted groups, as are many of my family members and friends, and the way this jackwagon and others like him think terrifies me.


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## Professor Murder (May 17, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Given how awful the stuff on that Twitter feed is, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down entirely. Surely it violates all sorts of Twitter's TOS?



Oh my sweet, summer child.


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## overgeeked (May 17, 2022)

Abstruse said:


> In case anyone's curious but doesn't want to click on the link: This is not subtle. This is not dogwhistles. This is not "if you read between the lines" or "place it in context with other posts" or anything like that. This is a collection of overt, blatant, and straightforward declarations of the worst and most vile hate you can possibly think of directed at pretty much every single marginalized group in the most disgusting ways possible.



Wish I hadn’t clicked the link. I need a shower.

I think the thread is titled the way it is for legal reason. There is no question given the content in that link.


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## Professor Murder (May 17, 2022)

Scratch a lie, find a thief. Thinks like this are why being ambivalent about White Supremacy can just be a public cover for good old fashioned enthusiastic endorsement.


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## Abstruse (May 17, 2022)

hunter1828 said:


> But that shouldn't be the end of it. Out of sight, out of mind shouldn't be the end goal for people like this. I don't want them gone from the small circle that is tabletop gamers and creators; I want them, and their hateful kind removed from mainstream society as a whole. I don't want them influencing or being influenced by others like them to commit heinous crimes like those in Buffalo or Laguna Woods in the past few days. As someone who is of Native heritage, who is pansexual, who is overweight, who is an outspoken liberal, I am among several of his and his kind's targeted groups, as are many of my family members and friends, and the way this jackwagon and others like him think terrifies me.



When it comes to reporting on problematic and toxic individuals in the RPG industry, there's a balancing act. Yes, we want to expose these toxic and problematic elements so that people know who and what they are. However, we also have to be careful we're not ourselves platforming them in the process. You can't deplatform and expose them - you have to choose. Therefore, we typically choose those who already have a platform and/or whose actions are so egregious that exposing them is the better option.


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## Charlaquin (May 17, 2022)

Disgusted but not surprised


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## Olaf the Stout (May 17, 2022)

Surely people aren’t still surprised that TSR3 are just as horrible as we thought they were right at the beginning?


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

Olaf the Stout said:


> Surely people aren’t still surprised that TSR3 are just as horrible as we thought they were right at the beginning?



I admit I knew they were bad, but not quite *this* bad...


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## JThursby (May 17, 2022)

I really just don't want to hear any more news about TSR3.  They are consistently pathetic, asinine losers that have no real relevance to the industry aside from having this brief possession of a recognizable trademark.  Their lame attempts at confidence schemes and rage bait haven't produced any real products (or revenue, I assume).  It looks like they're mostly a group of disgruntled alt-rigthers that vastly overestimated how many people in the TTRPG space sympathize with them (exceedingly few), and as someone who is _not_ an alt-righter and actually runs and plays games instead of just whining about games they have nothing to offer me except more rage bait to doom scroll past.  I'll be that much happier never having to see their dumb antics and garbage ideology posted about on the front page again.


hunter1828 said:


> I don't want them gone from the small circle that is tabletop gamers and creators; I want them, and their hateful kind removed from mainstream society as a whole.



That's an unhealthy tract.  Advocating or implying imprisonment or government censorship for bad thought is overplaying your hand, as you have no way to actually make it happen and anyone with even the slightest sympathy for them will view them as slightly more reasonable for receiving such comments.  Making this an existential "it's us or them" issue is what these bastards want, don't give it to them.


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## Eltab (May 17, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Given how awful the stuff on that Twitter feed is, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down entirely. Surely it violates all sorts of Twitter's TOS?



I'm not seeing how it is within EnWorld's TOS, either.  Which means the staff has to give Morrus some Red Ink for bringing it up?


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## Bill Zebub (May 17, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> my god this goes so far beyond the game...this is true evil




Probably. But like most real world evil it’s also…pathetic.


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## Sacrosanct (May 17, 2022)

Eltab said:


> I'm not seeing how it is within EnWorld's TOS, either.  Which means the staff has to give Morrus some Red Ink for bringing it up?



It also begs the question about DTRPG's TOS. I couldn't find anything about what kind of person you are as a publisher, just not to commit copyright violations.  I don't know if they even care if someone selling goods on their site is a nazi, with material with clear white supremacist dog whistles (which A&E has).


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## MGibster (May 17, 2022)

It's like a Russian nesting doll filled, but every doll revelaed is just smaller and nastier than the doll in was inside.  Seriously, if I were to make TSR3 up as a fictional bad guy and asked you to critique it you'd say, "Tone it down, mgibster, this is unbelieveale."


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

Eltab said:


> I'm not seeing how it is within EnWorld's TOS, either.  Which means the staff has to give Morrus some Red Ink for bringing it up?



It's hard to report on something when you can't really show what you're reporting on. Heck, I'm one of the people who found the link and even I'm not posting it on Facebook because it could get me banned from there.

But it needs to be seen... Maybe not by everyone, but by those who won't accept it any other way than to see it with their own eyes.


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## J.Quondam (May 17, 2022)

Eltab said:


> I'm not seeing how it is within EnWorld's TOS, either.  Which means the staff has to give Morrus some Red Ink for bringing it up?



That might be a question best PMed to a mod rather than discussed in-thread. (At least that's how I read ENWorld's TOS.)


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

I have a few of questions before reading this stuff. Not because I want to defend NuTSR (they are horrible and I hope they go down in flames in the WOTC lawsuit) but because anonymous accusations should meet a very high standard before they're spread around in my opinion, regardless of who is being accused. 

1) The person making the accusation is anonymous. Is there any indication this person actually is reliable, or knows the people in question, or was there when anything happened, or there is good reason to think they have access to private information concerning this? 

2) They claim the person who posted all the things at the website is the person behind NuTSR (or one of them). Is there any decent evidence to think that? Is is just supposition that it's the same person, or are we just relying on the anonymous person for this?

3) Could the anonymous person be their former employee, who has gone to some bizarre steps to get back at his former employers including some strange claims previously and whose posts are sometimes a bit nutty themselves?


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> 1) The person making the accusation is anonymous. Is there any indication this person actually is reliable, or knows the people in question, or was there when anything happened, or there is good reason to think they have access to private information concerning this?



The person's anonymity is irrelevant; they're posting direct screenshots of a publicly visible Twitter feed. There's no question the images were posted.



Mistwell said:


> 2) They claim the person who posted all the things at the website is the person behind NuTSR (or one of them). Is there any decent evidence to think that? Is is just supposition that it's the same person, or are we just relying on the anonymous person for this?



Although I admit it's not 100% iron clad (the Twitter feed is at least four years old), we have already shown evidence that it is pretty close to 100% sure that Dave Johnson is the owner of that Twitter account. See the image proof on the website and my own post on page two.

And Dave Johnson is by no means "behind" NuTSR... but he's the primary author of their flagship product, _Star Frontiers: New Genesis_.



Mistwell said:


> 3) Could the anonymous person be their former employee, who has gone to some bizarre steps to get back at his former employers including some strange claims previously and whose posts are sometimes a bit nutty themselves?



Unless he has a time machine, I don't see how. Like I said, the Twitter posts are at a minimum over four years old and span at least two years of constant posting. It's not something they created overnight out of spite.


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## Obryn (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> I have a few of questions before reading this stuff. Not because I want to defend NuTSR (they are horrible and I hope they go down in flames in the WOTC lawsuit) but because anonymous accusations should meet a very high standard before they're spread around in my opinion, regardless of who is being accused.
> 
> 1) The person making the accusation is anonymous. Is there any indication this person actually is reliable, or knows the people in question, or was there when anything happened, or there is good reason to think they have access to private information concerning this?
> 
> ...



Why not go on and look into it, and then get back to everyone with your results, instead of throwing around rhetorical questions?


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## payn (May 17, 2022)

Yeah, after the reactions here so far, I'm gonna steer clear of this one.


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## teitan (May 17, 2022)

Jedion357 said:


> It cannot be understated how bad the material is - stuff like "Hitler was right" and blatant use of the N word.



Hitler was right about one thing, suicide was his best option. Good riddance.


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

DLIMedia said:


> Although I admit it's not 100% iron clad (the Twitter feed is at least four years old), we have already shown evidence that it is pretty close to 100% sure that Dave Johnson is the owner of that Twitter account. See the image proof on the website and my own post on page two.



OK well I guess this is the key question. I don't want to click on the website. But I will take a look at your post on page two.


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## do_not_support (May 17, 2022)

Morrus said:


> But there is a website [CONTENT WARNING



The fact you are posting nazi content on this website in order to 
1) Create controversy
2) Promote racists and anti-LGBT views
is digusting.
3) Drive traffic to sell products.
You call yourself a "news" site, but the reality is that you are just a site promoting your own products.
Reposting racist content for the sole purpose of driving traffic to fill your coffers.
At least when they post it, it is in a small tiny bubble that nobody sees.
When you repost it, you reach way more including young nazi wannabes.

You are just as bad and I am going to work on videos to tell everyone to stay away from this site since you are reposting disgusting content and then profiting off of that disgusting content.


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

DLIMedia said:


> In case anyone is doubting the authenticity, there are a few Twitter posts that track with his Facebook posts. Like these, posted on the same day.
> 
> ETA: And he kept location tracking on in Twitter.
> 
> ...



Wait, this is your proof of nearly 100% certainty it's the same person? That a meme going around that day was posted by both, near the same time? Isn't that an indication they both read the same source for that meme, or that one read the others post and liked it so re-posted it? I mean, that is the entire purpose of memes and how they spread. I see you say they kept location tracking on, are you saying there is some indication they are in the same location?


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## cbwjm (May 17, 2022)

There was some pretty messed up stuff on that site. I actually thought this was about original TSR, that someone was trying to discredit Gary Gygax or something, then I spotted the 3 on the end of TSR and though "Oh, right, them!"


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## Umbran (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> 2) They claim the person who posted all the things at the website is the person behind NuTSR (or one of them). Is there any decent evidence to think that? Is is just supposition that it's the same person, or are we just relying on the anonymous person for this?




The basic evidence: the same ID appears across several social media platforms, some of which include the man's picture.  



Mistwell said:


> 3) Could the anonymous person be their former employee, who has gone to some bizarre steps to get back at his former employers including some strange claims previously and whose posts are sometimes a bit nutty themselves?




The tweets have been there since 2018 and before - I verified that myself.  Ick.  

Unless someone has figured out how to hack twitter to create posts with years-old timestamps, this stuff has been there for a long time. 

So, the only question is whether the account has always had that handle or not.


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

do_not_support said:


> The fact you are posting nazi content on this website in order to
> 1) Create controversy
> 2) Promote racists and anti-LGBT views
> is digusting.
> ...



Woah wait wait. In no way is Morrus "promoting" anything on that website (he even gave a warning to NOT click on it), nor can I see how he's using this post in any way to drive the sales of any product. Come on, you knew those claims you just made were an extreme stretch, right? I mean, you're basically saying reporting about bad news makes you the bad stuff itself? That's nonsense.


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## billd91 (May 17, 2022)

do_not_support said:


> The fact you are posting nazi content on this website in order to
> 1) Create controversy
> 2) Promote racists and anti-LGBT views
> is digusting.
> ...



So… I‘m guessing someone noticed and one of their little goose-stepping minions dutifully came over. Ban in 3… 2… 1…


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

Umbran said:


> The basic evidence: the same ID appears across several social media platforms, some of which include the man's picture.




Oh! That's pretty good. Is the picture a known picture of our guy?


Umbran said:


> The tweets have been there since 2018 and before - I verified that myself.  Ick.
> 
> Unless someone has figured out how to hack twitter to create posts with years-old timestamps, this stuff has been there for a long time.
> 
> So, the only question is whether the account has always had that handle or not.



I thought the question was whether that account can be connected to the NuTSR guy in question. Or is there a clear line between that handle and the NuTSR person?


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## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

Obryn said:


> Why not go on and look into it, and then get back to everyone with your results, instead of throwing around rhetorical questions?



They're definitely not rhetorical questions. Not sure why you thought they were? I am looking for actual feedback, and not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am getting pretty good answers. Pretty clear I am not asking rhetorical questions here.


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## Athiev (May 17, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Given how awful the stuff on that Twitter feed is, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down entirely. Surely it violates all sorts of Twitter's TOS?



This is worth keeping in mind when people go off about Twitter censorship --- they didn't even bother to ban _this_ Nazi.

How many broken stairs are there, actually? Hundreds or what?


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## billd91 (May 17, 2022)

Eltab said:


> I'm not seeing how it is within EnWorld's TOS, either.  Which means the staff has to give Morrus some Red Ink for bringing it up?



Give it a rest. Blatant racists in the gaming industry is news, particularly when they post hate of this magnitude. Or do think there’s something wrong about exposing that?


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> Wait, this is your proof of nearly 100% certainty it's the same person? That a meme going around that day was posted by both, near the same time? Isn't that an indication they both read the same source for that meme, or that one read the others post and liked it so re-posted it? I mean, that is the entire purpose of memes and how they spread. I see you say they kept location tracking on, are you saying there is some indication they are in the same location?



1) According to the Twitter location tracking, whoever posted on Twitter is in the same CITY as DaveJ... Murfreesboro, Tennessee.

2) If you go to the reference website, you'll see a Twitter post made on September 8th, 2017 that includes DaveJ's actual photo. It's obviously photoshopped in, sure (tweet's positional info is still in Tennessee), but like I said earlier... unless the poster has a time machine or knows how to hack Twitter, it's in the past.

I admit I'm not 100% sure, but given the above and given all the other things we've seen from DaveJ (including some reasonably glaring red flags in his writings), it's pretty likely. I see no evidence to the contrary.


----------



## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

DLIMedia said:


> 1) According to the Twitter location tracking, whoever posted on Twitter is in the same CITY as DaveJ... Murfreesboro, Tennessee.



That's pretty damning I'd say. Pretty good evidence it's likely the same person.


DLIMedia said:


> 2) If you go to the reference website, you'll see a Twitter post made on September 8th, 2017 that includes DaveJ's actual photo. It's obviously photoshopped in, sure (tweet's positional info is still in Tennessee), but like I said earlier... unless the poster has a time machine or knows how to hack Twitter, it's in the past.



Also good evidence (I don't want to go to that site but I appreciate you summarizing that for me).


DLIMedia said:


> I admit I'm not 100% sure, but given the above and given all the other things we've seen from DaveJ (including some reasonably glaring red flags in his writings), it's pretty likely. I see no evidence to the contrary.



Yeah both of those are pretty solid. Seems likely.

OK, I'm convinced.


----------



## Flamestrike (May 17, 2022)

do_not_support said:


> The fact you are posting nazi content on this website in order to
> 1) Create controversy
> 2) Promote racists and anti-LGBT views
> is digusting.
> ...




Wut?

It's being shared so we know to avoid TSR3, and as a condemnation of the views they express. I would never have known about these Nazi flogs if it hadnt been for this site.

News sites and Social media sites that call out or report racists, homophobes, bigots, Nazis, #Metoo perpetrators and so forth,  and identify them for others so we know to steer clear, are clearly not condoning those Nazis, any more than Ralph Fiennes was condoning the Holocaust when he portrayed a Nazi in Schindlers list.

How you can interpret this thread to be 'promoting' racist and anti-LGBTI views is utterly beyond me. It's doing the exact opposite.


----------



## jdrakeh (May 17, 2022)

@Mistwell Dave Johnson has also posted "lite" versions of this same hate on his [multiple] Facebook accounts*. The red flags were there, so I wasn't surprised to learn of his turbo bigot Twitter account. It seems that he just feels more free to post this kind of thing on Twitter. 

*He's had multiple Facebook accounts under multiple names over the past year or so. Some for his publishing imprint, Dave Johnson Games, and some personal.


----------



## jdrakeh (May 17, 2022)

Flamestrike said:


> How you can interpret this thread to be 'promoting' racist and anti-LGBTI views is utterly beyond me. It's doing the exact opposite.




He joined 34 minutes ago and this was his first post. I'm going with "probably a sock puppet of a banned nuT$R supporter" here.


----------



## Deset Gled (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> OK, I'm convinced.




We'll, I'm late to the game here, but I have found some cross posting between the very problematic Twitter account and Dave's public FB account (which is 100% Dave: it matches up with his posts on Discord, and his A&J business work).  Here's a good example of said cross posting:











For bonus proof, I can confirm the pics match other photos of Dave from that time period.

So, yeah, I'm pretty convinced the Twitter account is his.


----------



## Faolyn (May 17, 2022)

Never mind, @jdrakeh ninja'd me.


----------



## Imaculata (May 17, 2022)

Well, if the last few years have taught us anything... it is that apparently we are surrounded by nazis. So, I really can't be all that surprised.


----------



## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

Faolyn said:


> Never mind, @jdrakeh ninja'd me.



He's sneaky like that.


----------



## Scarlet.Knight (May 17, 2022)

jdrakeh said:


> He joined 34 minutes ago and this was his first post. I'm going with "probably a sock puppet of a banned nuT$R supporter" here.



Very alt-right-fly-by-night-social-media-account-like... common shayte spewing stratagem


----------



## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

Unsurprised. I knew where this was going the second they deployed the same playbook we've seen all over the place over the past decade plus: drop into a community bend tradition and fear of change into a fear outsiders to their hobby, splinter off and isolate the people who buy it, radicalize them not just against outsiders to their hobby but to... well at this point every non-evil person by feeding a persecution complex and somehow every time a severe misunderstanding of copyright, pick a fight with a corporation as cover, blame the people they attack. Later, rinse, repeat.

All we need now is a twisted lie forged into a slogan. Heritage not hate, ethics in games journalism, something catchy like that, and I'll fill my bingo card.


----------



## Maxperson (May 17, 2022)

I'm not going to look at the twitter feed.  Has anyone seen any real evidence of the allegation made by the anonymous person on that website?


----------



## jdrakeh (May 17, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> I'm not going to look at the twitter feed.  Has anyone seen any real evidence of the allegation made by the anonymous person on that website?




Yes. The Twitter feed is full of said evidence, but I've also seen similar posts on Dave Johnson's multiple Facebook accounts, as I mention above. Not quite as virulent as the dozens of tweets, but the red flags were definitely there (especially with regard to homophobia and transphopia).


----------



## doctorbadwolf (May 17, 2022)

J.Quondam said:


> Given how awful the stuff on that Twitter feed is, I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down entirely. Surely it violates all sorts of Twitter's TOS?



Twitter isn’t going to get rid of the Nazis. If they had any intention of doing so, they’d have done it already. 


hunter1828 said:


> But that shouldn't be the end of it. Out of sight, out of mind shouldn't be the end goal for people like this. I don't want them gone from the small circle that is tabletop gamers and creators; I want them, and their hateful kind removed from mainstream society as a whole. I don't want them influencing or being influenced by others like them to commit heinous crimes like those in Buffalo or Laguna Woods in the past few days. As someone who is of Native heritage, who is pansexual, who is overweight, who is an outspoken liberal, I am among several of his and his kind's targeted groups, as are many of my family members and friends, and the way this jackwagon and others like him think terrifies me.



Damn right. 


Professor Murder said:


> Scratch a lie, find a thief. Thinks like this are why being ambivalent about White Supremacy can just be a public cover for good old fashioned enthusiastic endorsement.



Yep. This is why WSs need to be publicly called out, exposed, shut down, and _then_ deplatformed.  

Making fun of them, arguing with them, all that stuff that works with normal people, doesn’t work. The Nazi Bar Rule applies to all social spaces, not just bars. You can kick them out, by physical force if necessary, or you can watch your space become _their_ space.


----------



## OakenHart (May 17, 2022)

Well that's just gross.

I don't understand that "replacement" nonsense.  Where the hell do they think white people are going to go?  It's just weird and gross.


----------



## bonchon (May 17, 2022)

do_not_support said:


> The fact you are posting nazi content on this website in order to
> 1) Create controversy
> 2) Promote racists and anti-LGBT views
> is digusting.
> ...




Since you just joined today to post this silly attack on Morrus, I gotta wonder if this is a sockpuppet account from one of the NuTSR people.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (May 17, 2022)

do_not_support said:


> The fact you are posting nazi content on this website in order to
> 1) Create controversy
> 2) Promote racists and anti-LGBT views
> is digusting.
> ...



*Mod Note:*

Morrus is perfectly capable of fighting his own fights, but... You _really_ need to be able to discern the difference between warning against something and promoting it.  _Especially_ online.


----------



## Deset Gled (May 17, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> I'm not going to look at the twitter feed.  Has anyone seen any real evidence of the allegation made by the anonymous person on that website?




The posts and allegations collected on the website are still on the Twitter feed. @DLIMedia and I have both posted evidence that the Twitter account matches up with Dave's other (verified, current) social media accounts. There are even a couple of photos and videos from the Twitter feed that are pretty clearly Dave if you compare them to other photos he had online.

There aren't a lot of dots that need to be connected. This was not a Twitter account that Dave kept anonymous or tried to hide, it's just one that he hasn't used in a while.


----------



## hunter1828 (May 17, 2022)

JThursby said:


> That's an unhealthy tract.  Advocating or implying imprisonment or government censorship for bad thought is overplaying your hand, as you have no way to actually make it happen and anyone with even the slightest sympathy for them will view them as slightly more reasonable for receiving such comments.  Making this an existential "it's us or them" issue is what these bastards want, don't give it to them.



It *IS* an "us or them" issue, and they are the ones that made it so long ago. They are actively promoting murder and genocide. You can't counter that with flowers and peace signs, no matter how much you might want to.


----------



## Azzy (May 17, 2022)

I hope WotC gets wind of this, and it further fuels them to to stomp them nuTSR into the ground on all applicable legal standings and make sure they are duly rewarded for their efforts. A shame Twitter (and much of society) won't take nazis to task, though.


----------



## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> I'm not going to look at the twitter feed.  Has anyone seen any real evidence of the allegation made by the anonymous person on that website?



Apparently the pictures between the two are the same person, and happened at a date before any motive to copy or spoof anything could have existed (years ago). Also, both accounts post the same things sometimes, at the same dates and almost same time, with location tracking left on at both accounts showing they're posting from the same town. So yeah, seems like pretty good evidence they're the same person.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (May 17, 2022)

adamantyr said:


> A repeat of what happened a few years ago with Judge's Guild... Bob Bledsaw II revealed his racist, bigoted alt-right side and ended any chance of JG ever returning to prominence.
> 
> Surprisingly, this is worse.



Missed that.  Shame.  JG put out some killer stuff in the early days of FRPGs.


----------



## Ancalagon (May 17, 2022)

"surely Morrus" is exaggerating a little"

_looks at website_

Holy naughty word.    This is beyond awful


----------



## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

hunter1828 said:


> It *IS* an "us or them" issue, and they are the ones that made it so long ago. They are actively promoting murder and genocide. You can't counter that with flowers and peace signs, no matter how much you might want to.



The history of non-violent resistance to oppression says you're incorrect. Love and peace messages can and have countered oppression at the highest level - governments, wars, groups have all been defeated with it. Not every time and it's not a guarantee. But the idea non-violence peaceful response to political oppression cannot result in changes for the better is not in line with the history of non-violent resistance.


----------



## Parmandur (May 17, 2022)

Ancalagon said:


> "surely Morrus" is exaggerating a little"
> 
> _looks at website_
> 
> Holy naughty word.    This is beyond awful



He kind of undersells it.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (May 17, 2022)

Looked at the whole site.  Disappointing, to say the *absolute* least.  It’s a full on, all-you-can-eat buffet of hate.


----------



## hunter1828 (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> The history of non-violent resistance to oppression says you're incorrect. Love and peace messages can and have countered oppression at the highest level - governments, wars, groups have all been defeated with it. Not every time and it's not a guarantee. But the idea non-violence peaceful response to political oppression cannot result in changes for the better is not in line with the history of non-violent resistance.



Non-violent, peaceful responses to political oppression can absolutely work and have absolutely worked.
But these turd blossoms are not, in fact, the government and therefore this is not about political oppression. This is about not being murdered by deranged lunatics. Smacking them on the nose with a newspaper and saying, "NO!" just isn't cutting it, else we wouldn't be in this situation.


----------



## Dire Bare (May 17, 2022)

LordEntrails said:


> My first question is, for those of interest, how reliable has that Twitter account been linked t the SFNG author Dave Johnson? Strong enough to hold up in court? Almost certainly? Probably? Likely? Possible? or less?
> 
> And then the regardless of that; who's surprised? I mean come on, we already knew these people are hateful and ugly and <add your own word>. Is it it really going to change how anyone interacts with these folks? Not me.



Hold up in court? Not the standard necessary here. No one is being charged with a crime, or sued. Well, not yet anyway.


----------



## doctorbadwolf (May 17, 2022)

hunter1828 said:


> It *IS* an "us or them" issue, and they are the ones that made it so long ago. They are actively promoting murder and genocide. You can't counter that with flowers and peace signs, no matter how much you might want to.



Exactly. This isn’t a case of standing up to an oppressive government, it’s about responding to individuals in your community whose philosophy compels them to be a direct, very real, threat to the physical safety of your neighbors. 


Mistwell said:


> The history of non-violent resistance to oppression says you're incorrect. Love and peace messages can and have countered oppression at the highest level - governments, wars, groups have all been defeated with it. Not every time and it's not a guarantee. But the idea non-violence peaceful response to political oppression cannot result in changes for the better is not in line with the history of non-violent resistance.



Hard to discuss without getting political, but I’m not sure that this is historically inarguable. The Civil Rights Movement wasn’t entirely non-violent. Buildings got burned, riots occurred, lynchers got shot. School history lessons whitewash the heck out of it, but the real history is arguably that Malcom X and The Black Panthers and folks like them were just as big a part of getting the job done as Dr King and other nonviolent agitators.  

But also, what you’re replying to isn’t really the same kind of situation. If neo-Nazis are trying to come into your bar and become regulars, you can either stop them, let them take over and eventually hurt marginalized people by doing so, or close up shop. That’s it. They don’t get tired of arguing. They don’t dissolve in rhetorical sunlight. They want to eradicate whole demographics, and take full unmitigated control of all systems of power.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (May 17, 2022)

Reporting the hate speech is necessary, but not enough. We have to explain we are civiliced because our ethical values teach us to *repect for the human dignity*, the core of our rights as citizens. And we have to realise when the demagoges and populist use the emotional manipulation as bait, appealling our passions as the envy, resentment, fear, pride, desire, shame and guilty feeling. 

* We should also worry when the speculative fiction is tainted by social darwinism and elitism, altough more subtile and hidden. When you read some psychology articles about psycopaths then you realise when some titles show the point of view by the author, about the world is a jungle, the life is mercyless, and the future will be by "Übermensch", Nietsche superior men, but all that verbiage to describe a psychopath who don't understand the defense of the human dignity. Do you remember "X-Men: Noir"? 

* I suggest as vengeance a parody to show the reason they are wrong, something grimmer than Warhammer 40.000 or Mutant Chronicles. A fabule to explain the State is not the fairy oddmother who is going to fix all your troubles thanks her superpowers, but the real danger when somebody has got too much control, but he hasn't to worry about the consequences of his actions because we are the dummies who are going to pay for the broken plates.


----------



## Mistwell (May 17, 2022)

hunter1828 said:


> Non-violent, peaceful responses to political oppression can absolutely work and have absolutely worked.
> But these turd blossoms are not, in fact, the government and therefore this is not about political oppression. This is about not being murdered by deranged lunatics. Smacking them on the nose with a newspaper and saying, "NO!" just isn't cutting it, else we wouldn't be in this situation.



Non-violent peaceful resistance isn't smacking on the nose and saying no. And yes, powerful murderous and deranged lunatics have in fact been defeated with non-violent peaceful resistance. Indeed, they have a history of working better than violent responses. 

We will always be in this position. There will always been deranged lunatics who need to be opposed. They will always try to wreck things. This generation is not at all unique in dealing with these kinds of problems. Stop thinking this is somehow a special challenge requiring a special response.


----------



## CleverNickName (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> Stop thinking this is somehow a special challenge requiring a special response.



The part that is unique here is the format: this is all taking place on the Internet, where records cannot be as easily scrubbed and voices cannot be as easily silenced.  Sure, we have had oppressors across all of history, but this is the first time that we have had the technology to respond so quickly, to drag them into the light so suddenly.  I think that alone is enough to qualify this as a "special response."


----------



## hunter1828 (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> Non-violent peaceful resistance isn't smacking on the nose and saying no. And yes, powerful murderous and deranged lunatics have in fact been defeated with non-violent peaceful resistance. Indeed, they have a history of working better than violent responses.
> 
> We will always be in this position. There will always been deranged lunatics who need to be opposed. They will always try to wreck things. This generation is not at all unique in dealing with these kinds of problems. Stop thinking this is somehow a special challenge requiring a special response.



Good article. Too bad it is completely about opposing oppressive laws and regimes and not about opposing the person down the block that wants to shoot you for not being straight, or 100% white, or a nutjob just like them.


----------



## Unwise (May 17, 2022)

I came here to complain that as much as we might dislike TSR3, calling them Nazis is too slanderous and is...

...wait up. Yep, they have Nazis among them. Well...carry on...


----------



## Zardnaar (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> Non-violent peaceful resistance isn't smacking on the nose and saying no. And yes, powerful murderous and deranged lunatics have in fact been defeated with non-violent peaceful resistance. Indeed, they have a history of working better than violent responses.
> 
> We will always be in this position. There will always been deranged lunatics who need to be opposed. They will always try to wreck things. This generation is not at all unique in dealing with these kinds of problems. Stop thinking this is somehow a special challenge requiring a special response.




 Not sure if it the same thing but I remember numbers thrown around. Violent revolts fail 75% of the time. 

 Peaceful protests fail around 50% of the time. 

 And 3.5% of the population actively protesting in the streets is the critical mass needed to effect change.

 TSR3 is just a symptom it's not the main disease.


----------



## GuyBoy (May 17, 2022)

Huge respect for @Morrus for all he has done to bring the foulness of TSR3 and all its iterations to our attention over several months. Evil struggles in the light and all of us now know just how disgusting and vile these people are. 
Nazis and their disgusting apologists have to be opposed by every means possible and it is so heartening to read the posts of so many lovely, decent people on this site. 
My heart is with everyone who has suffered due to the repulsive views and poison of the far right.


----------



## Horwath (May 17, 2022)

Wow, what a cesspool of hate and stupidity.

Looks that someone didn't get any for decades. 

Also, I believe that he thinks he is funny. But, there is a fine line between dark humor about racism and being actual raving racist, and this guy stepped over it a 100km ago.


----------



## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

You know, I was actually hoping that I WOULD NOT be a seething, rage filled bugger from the news today.  So much for that.  Now I just get to wish for a return to the rules we had for nazis in the 1940’s…

Could the vile psychopaths that keep showing up please just get off my planet?  Before they decide to do something physical with those ”ideals” of theirs?


----------



## cbwjm (May 17, 2022)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Looked at the whole site.  Disappointing, to say the *absolute* least.  It’s a full on, all-you-can-eat buffet of hate.



When I looked at it, the first thing I saw was the image for, presumably, a book cover "It's okay to be white" and I thought, "well yeah, it is okay to be white" then I read the subheading and was like "Oh damn! That's not cool!"

And also everything else I saw. It really is just a site of hateful rubbish.


----------



## Levistus's_Leviathan (May 17, 2022)

JThursby said:


> That's an unhealthy tract. Advocating or implying imprisonment or government censorship for bad thought is overplaying your hand, as you have no way to actually make it happen and anyone with even the slightest sympathy for them will view them as slightly more reasonable for receiving such comments. Making this an existential "it's us or them" issue is what these bastards want, don't give it to them.



The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. We cannot tolerate Nazis in any form, or they will win. We cannot allow Nazism to survive, or it will eventually win. It's the Paradox of Tolerance. 

Nazism is one of the few examples of true thoughtcrime. Genocidal monsters don't deserve and should not be allowed a spot in the public forum.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 17, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. We cannot tolerate Nazis in any form, or they will win. We cannot allow Nazism to survive, or it will eventually win. It's the Paradox of Tolerance.
> 
> Nazism is one of the few examples of true thoughtcrime. Genocidal monsters don't deserve and should not be allowed a spot in the public forum.




 Bit more complicated than that irl. 

 Basically they want you to fight. It drives even more people to the extremes and forces people to pick a side. 

Germany 1930's. Similar reasons as to why as well. Once the army and police make that decision......

 That's the paradox there IMHO more you fight then the worse it gets. 

 And no I don't have a better solution more some ideas that I can't really detail here but it's essentially economics.


----------



## Lyandelill (May 17, 2022)

Bash the fash.


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## Horwath (May 17, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. We cannot tolerate Nazis in any form, or they will win. We cannot allow Nazism to survive, or it will eventually win. It's the Paradox of Tolerance.
> 
> Nazism is one of the few examples of true thoughtcrime. Genocidal monsters don't deserve and should not be allowed a spot in the public forum.



Do you want more nazis? Because this is how you get more nazis!

This kind of rhetoric will only drive people that have some nazi sympathy completely into their camp.

Hate speech is still only speech and you can battle it with good speech. Not censorship.

To quote GRRM: When you tear out a man's tongue, you are not proving him a liar, you are only telling the world that you fear what he might say.


----------



## Zardnaar (May 17, 2022)

Lyandelill said:


> Bash the fash.




 Didn't work so well in Germany.


----------



## Geoff Thirlwell (May 17, 2022)

I thought I’d check the link out to see if this was just dark humour, shock value stuff but it’s clear from his comments that it’s not. I’d chatted online to him before about old school RPGs and he added me as a friend on Facebook. I guess it’s time to remove him


----------



## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

GuyBoy said:


> Huge respect for @Morrus for all he has done to bring the foulness of TSR3 and all its iterations to our attention



That is kind, but I'm just the messenger here. Somebody else did all that work, and folks here on EN World pointed it out. I can't take the credit.


----------



## Flamestrike (May 17, 2022)

JThursby said:


> Advocating or implying imprisonment or government censorship for bad thought is overplaying your hand




But this isn't just 'bad thought' is it?

The dude is literally publicly advocating for and supporting things like mothers murdering trans children, and green lighting the holocaust, while actively publicly promulgating anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, racist memes, Nazism and white nationalism. Those are _actions _based on self evident bigotry.

Thinking those things is bad enough. But actively going out of your way to advocate for them, and show support for them?

Someone who actively desires those things is (amongst many other things) bloody dangerous, as can be clearly seen from the recent mass shooting a few days ago (and all the other ones like in Poway, Charleston, Christchurch etc etc) plus you know, what happened in Germany only 80 years ago.

Someone who is telling you they're a Nazi, is someone who is telling you they're OK with the literal mass murder of Jews, the disabled, LGBTI+ people, ethnic minorities and non whites, and that they would (at a minimum) _support what Hitler did._

Not only is that self evidently deluded (if your argument ever starts or ends with 'and that's why Hitler was right' you have issues) it's downright dangerous.


----------



## Wolfram stout (May 17, 2022)

DLIMedia said:


> DLIMedia said:
> 
> 
> > 1) According to the Twitter location tracking, whoever posted on Twitter is in the same CITY as DaveJ... Murfreesboro, Tennessee.



That's one town over from me.  I had no idea. It is one thing to know this type of hate is out there, but to Know how close is truly just grossed and icky and scary. I have a son that this man would gleefully do harm to for no reason other than being who he is.


----------



## Juomari Veren (May 17, 2022)

I see I'm just a liiiittle too late for the violent vs. nonviolent response conversation, so I'll just say this; The reason violent protest is "less" effective is, while not baseless, also not the entire truth. A truly evil force would always build up the notion that nonviolent protest is the only real way to do it because, when it's successful, it usually makes it hard for them to continue to enforce their rhetoric and build a base of power up (because, you know, they will probably be killed). The success rates of violent vs. nonviolent protests is a statistic, I can't deny that. Is it one that I think accurately represents a tailored response to years of slowly integrating totalitarian surpression into the market of free thought? Absolutely. 

I don't want to beat up a dead horse or make the conversation that isn't about TTRPGs drag on, but as a final point; I think that there's a clear tipping point where nonviolence just won't work - One that we have a very good metric for thanks to WW2 - and one that I personally fear we've long crossed.

Also, since I'm here and I'm already veering on going off-topic, I would like to say that I'm not particularly surprised at this turn of events, since the politics of LaNasa were well documented thanks to his endeavors. Misery loves company. I obviously have strong opinions on what to do in situations like this, but thankfully since their product is only a step removed from the TTRPG equivalent of vaporware, I'm not too worried if their audience is self-contained, and I'm thankful but sorry to anyone who invested in the digital product just to figure out how awful it is for the rest of us so we didn't get tricked into thinking that terrible people could somehow also be good game designers. Hopefully nobody's invested in that $650 OD&D product they were trying to hype up, or whatever it was.


----------



## Ancalagon (May 17, 2022)

JThursby said:


> .
> 
> That's an unhealthy tract.  Advocating or implying imprisonment or government censorship for bad thought is overplaying your hand, as you have no way to actually make it happen and anyone with even the slightest sympathy for them will view them as slightly more reasonable for receiving such comments.  Making this an existential "it's us or them" issue is what these bastards want, don't give it to them.




Funny, there are a number of free democratic countries where this kind of garbage is not tolerated (see the paradox of tolerance, also see how not to have a nazi bar).  The free speech maximalism position is not the only "ethical" one.


----------



## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

In case you're wondering how NuTSR would respond to yesterday's revelation that their primary staffer has morally questionable opinions (edited so as not to offend moderators)... the Discord admin posted this and is deleting offending posts.


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## Horwath (May 17, 2022)

Ancalagon said:


> Funny, there are a number of free democratic countries where this kind of garbage is not tolerated (see the paradox of tolerance, also see how not to have a nazi bar).  The free speech maximalism position is not the only "ethical" one.



I would love to have a nazi bar in my city.

That would decrease the random chance of getting into argument(or worse) with those a##hats at a random bar everywhere, as they would be concentrated in their bubble. Just have a patrol car nearby for "just in case".

I would just stay clear of that specific location.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

do_not_support said:


> The fact you are posting nazi content on this website in order to



everyone in NEWS (even gaming) has this impossible tight rope to walk. I do not envy @Morrus at all.  How do you report something that is something we should know without showing it (unless you want to be accused of makeing it up with no proof) but also in a way not to promote it.

Over all yes, do not support is right, someone some small faction will take this news and go support them, but I HAVE to believe the OVERWEALMING majority of people here do not like nazis (man that is a weird sentence to write)...

so in the end is it better to let this hide in the shadows, or to expose it to the light? again it's a tight rope every reporter will have to walk.  

For what it is worth I am glad it was reported.


----------



## GuyBoy (May 17, 2022)

Horwath said:


> I would love to have a nazi bar in my city.
> 
> That would decrease the random chance of getting into argument(or worse) with those a##hats at a random bar everywhere, as they would be concentrated in their bubble. Just have a patrol car nearby for "just in case".
> 
> I would just stay clear of that specific location.



I would hate to have anywhere in my town, or anyone’s town, where that type of sickening view gathers and is promulgated. Nazis and their allies need to be fought at all times and by every available means. 
Today in UK the leader of the new-Nazi group National Action was found guilty of promoting hate in the crown court in Winchester. Good. I hope his sentence is significant. We must use every aspect of the legal system to fight Nazis. 
We must also use every aspect of media to fight them. The superb work on this site is a tiny part of that, and it makes me proud to be a part of it. 
We must educate our young people to fight against this type of hate. I have played a role in taking students to Auschwitz as part of this and there are thousands of wonderful people who work hard to do this every day. 
We must vote them, and their apologists, out at every election possible using democracy.
And lastly, I agree with @AcererakTriple6 that we must, if able to do so, be prepared to use violence against them. I have a five inch scar on my face from my time with the Anti-Nazi League in the late 1970s, delivered by a broken bottle in the hands of a neo-Nazi National Front thug, and I’m conscious that millions of people through history have suffered much worse than me to defeat the hatred of Nazism. 

So, no, I don’t want a Nazi bar in my city, and I don’t want them in my hobby either.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Mistwell said:


> The history of non-violent resistance to oppression says you're incorrect. Love and peace messages can and have countered oppression at the highest level - governments, wars, groups have all been defeated with it. Not every time and it's not a guarantee. But the idea non-violence peaceful response to political oppression cannot result in changes for the better is not in line with the history of non-violent resistance.



yes we 100% need people willing to be nonviolent.  One of the scariest part of the last few years is not the number of people who are violent for evil ends, and is not those able and willing to do violence to oppose them... its the number of those willing to do violence to oppose them that threaten violence against the non violent on there side.

I can 100% beyond a doubt support Nazi's are the bad guys. I can find people 1/2 as bad and label them already as bad enough to be bad guys.  I am not going to punch one, and I am not going to say others should... but I have been threatened by people who would even when I said I support that they are doing things there way and are still on the right side.  It isn't all. But I never suspected that 'good guys' fighting back would want to fight 'good guys' opposing without fighting before 2017.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Unwise said:


> I came here to complain that as much as we might dislike TSR3, calling them Nazis is too slanderous and is...
> 
> ...wait up. Yep, they have Nazis among them. Well...carry on...



yeah... like this isn't 'someone called someone they disagreement one' this is they said things about hitler... crazy


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

And DaveJ's response to yesterday's allegations is... to change his Facebook avatar?!?


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

The amount of "Fighting back creates more Nazis!", here, is just disturbing.

Fighting back doesn't create more Nazis. It exposes more Nazis that already existed and you didn't know about.

Or. More likely. It stops Nazis.

See, Nazis want debate. They want to put on a fancy tie and attend a political dinner and turn their genocidal politics into topics of polite debate. Into "Interesting Hypotheticals" that you can consider over tea. Because the more you separate the horror of their intentions from discussing those intentions the easier it is to convince someone of their validity. Or, at least, the validity of "Just Talking".

This is what Spencer was all about. 'Til he got decked on camera and disappeared. Know what else disappeared? All those articles about the polite and kind alt-right that various magazines spent thousands of dollars on. The white-washed bellybutton gazing articles that gave Spencer and his ilk a platform.

You don't talk to Nazis. You don't give Nazis the chance to spread their hatred as polite conversation. This is what the Paradox of Tolerance is all about.

If you punch a Nazi, and someone else goes "That's not fair, he said nothing wrong! You're gonna make me join his side!" then that person was already a Nazi, they were just too cowardly to say it with their full chest before you punched a Nazi in their presence.

Because you don't go down the Genocide track over a fistfight. You were already riding that train, you just leaned out the window to complain.

@GuyBoy is right. You never let the Nazis congregate in public. It makes them feel accepted, welcomed. Makes them feel like they can say hateful things with impunity. Makes them feel -supported-.

Nazi bars, Nazi clubs, Nazi dance halls... All need to go. And if you've got one in your city? You have precious few options for dealing with it.

Shut them down. Kick them out. Nazis don't get peace.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

AcererakTriple6 said:


> The only good Nazi is a dead Nazi. We cannot tolerate Nazis in any form, or they will win. We cannot allow Nazism to survive, or it will eventually win. It's the Paradox of Tolerance.
> 
> Nazism is one of the few examples of true thoughtcrime. Genocidal monsters don't deserve and should not be allowed a spot in the public forum.



if you lock them all up and teach tolerance to all I see no reason to believe you need to kill them. 

Heck there are some that are all talk, and the danger they pose is in inciting those that are not... if you can find way to get to those that MIGHT be prone to be a danger and talk to them first, turn them from that path, then those that are all talk are all just wind bags. 

I will never fault someone for physical violence in defense of self or other, I will rarely condemn someone for violence in a hot blooded rage. I however can not get behind cold logical sitting in calm safe places and saying "the people who think and say evil things must be killed" 

and as I said that simple statement has made me enemies of good people who in there hearts think they are doing nothing wrong.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Morrus said:


> That is kind, but I'm just the messenger here. Somebody else did all that work, and folks here on EN World pointed it out. I can't take the credit.



do not be too modest. Others did the leg work and others brought it to you. This is a team effort... but the same was true for every major reporter sitting behind a news anchor desk. You did your part. You showed and exposed and brought this too us (even if it meant possible repercussions big or small).

I respect you for that.


----------



## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

Morrus said:


> That is kind, but I'm just the messenger here. Somebody else did all that work, and folks here on EN World pointed it out. I can't take the credit.



Although I was one of the people who brought the link to light, you're one of few that did what we were unwilling to do... properly and professionally report on it. Thank you for that.


----------



## mudbunny (May 17, 2022)

JThursby said:


> That's an unhealthy tract.  Advocating or implying imprisonment or government censorship for bad thought is overplaying your hand, as you have no way to actually make it happen and anyone with even the slightest sympathy for them will view them as slightly more reasonable for receiving such comments.  Making this an existential "it's us or them" issue is what these bastards want, don't give it to them.



I apologize for getting political, but most countries do in fact ban hate speech. It IS an "us or them" when the whole philosophy of transphobes, nazis and white supremacists is the elimination of an entire group of people. As soon as you start wanting to allow their opinions in public and start discussing it, you are accepting that some of their points of view are acceptable.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Wolfram stout said:


> That's one town over from me.  I had no idea. It is one thing to know this type of hate is out there, but to Know how close is truly just grossed and icky and scary. I have a son that this man would gleefully do harm to for no reason other than being who he is.



I am sorry, I hope your family is as safe as it can be. I too have family and friends that would be in that danger. I would like to think noone in my city, no one in my area at all... but I know that is not true, and I fear everytime I see a slight political difference "how far is that person, is this minor or danger?"

but we all need to know that this story COULD have been 3-5 houses away from any of us.

I hope you hug your son tonight. I hope that there is never anyone actively moving against them and anyone else... I just know the odds are not in our favor.


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> if you lock them all up and teach tolerance to all I see no reason to believe you need to kill them.
> 
> Heck there are some that are all talk, and the danger they pose is in inciting those that are not... if you can find way to get to those that MIGHT be prone to be a danger and talk to them first, turn them from that path, then those that are all talk are all just wind bags.
> 
> ...



When you lock up a bunch of White Supremacists what you wind up with is more well connected White Supremacists.

Same thing with Nazis or any other bigot.

See, the problem with "Teaching Tolerance" is that they have to want to -learn- to be Tolerant. But that's almost never the case.

Sure. Maybe you can talk a handful off the ledge. Maybe you can work with some.

But. The amount of harm that is caused while you delicately try to work that person into less of a dumpster fire is massive. 

Meanwhile, you punch a Nazi and they learn that Nazism isn't accepted within arm's reach of you. Everyone punches the Nazis and they learn there's nowhere that is safe to be a Nazi. That they have to hide it. That it's something society considers to be unacceptable.

Then they have a choice. Stop being a Nazi (or at least openly so), or keep getting punched in the teeth.

Dick Spencer stopped showing up in public for a reason. His political aspirations collapsed for a reason. His connections dried up. His wife left him. All for a Reason.

And that reason was a right hand to the side of the head followed by a strong elbow.


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## Horwath (May 17, 2022)

mudbunny said:


> I apologize for getting political, but most countries do in fact ban hate speech. It IS an "us or them" when the whole philosophy of transphobes, nazis and white supremacists is the elimination of an entire group of people. As soon as you start wanting to allow their opinions in public and start discussing it, you are accepting that some of their points of view are acceptable.



Let them.

We had presidential elections in 2019 and we had one far right candidate that was in some polls in the lead, but he got trashed in all debates and lost lots of support just for having world views that he had.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Steampunkette said:


> If you punch a Nazi, and someone else goes "That's not fair, he said nothing wrong! You're gonna make me join his side!" then that person was already a Nazi, they were just too cowardly to say it with their full chest before you punched a Nazi in their presence.
> 
> Because you don't go down the Genocide track over a fistfight. You were already riding that train, you just leaned out the window to complain.



this assumes people are 'born' or 'always' evil. that no one was ever persuaded by evil. that no one ever started down a dark path and was brought back.

that person that said you shouldn't have hit them MIGHT be a nazi, but they might also be someone that I could talk to and show that as much as the fistfight was a bit much, that the nazi DID start it with proposing violence against others.

Yes the world need soldiers, the world needs cops. The world needs people who are willing to punch Nazi's... but the world also needs psychologists and aid workers and organizers and peaceful protesters... and people willing to talk, people who can pull people back from the brink.

Have you ever noticed dispirit lone people are all evil? of course not. but alot of those evil people can convince  dispirit lone people to join up...


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

Well, letting them fester quietly in a society, infiltrating the government for twenty years clearly worked.

And letting them fester quietly in _our _society for fifty years, infiltrating the government for fifty years clearly worked.

So I'm sure letting them fester loudly and openly in our in our society openly holding positions in our government, media and corporations is going to go stellar.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Steampunkette said:


> When you lock up a bunch of White Supremacists what you wind up with is more well connected White Supremacists.



well connected to what? people in prisons? 


Steampunkette said:


> Same thing with Nazis or any other bigot.
> 
> See, the problem with "Teaching Tolerance" is that they have to want to -learn- to be Tolerant. But that's almost never the case.



people are not born evil. people are taught evil. You need to teach people GOOD too. Yes there are points that people may be too far gone to be helped and need to be locked away (or worse) but the idea is to try to get to as many as possible BEFORE that.


Steampunkette said:


> Sure. Maybe you can talk a handful off the ledge. Maybe you can work with some.
> 
> But. The amount of harm that is caused while you delicately try to work that person into less of a dumpster fire is massive.



and the amount of harm they cause is reduced in some case negated when you help them back to the light.


Steampunkette said:


> Meanwhile, you punch a Nazi and they learn that Nazism isn't accepted within arm's reach of you.



and what... they punch back, or worse? what happens if they have suppior force? 


Steampunkette said:


> Everyone punches the Nazis and they learn there's nowhere that is safe to be a Nazi. That they have to hide it. That it's something society considers to be unacceptable.



Hidden cults of Nazis are not much better than outspoken ones.


Steampunkette said:


> Dick Spencer stopped showing up in public for a reason. His political aspirations collapsed for a reason. His connections dried up. His wife left him. All for a Reason.
> 
> And that reason was a right hand to the side of the head followed by a strong elbow.



and not everyone is Spencer


----------



## Flamestrike (May 17, 2022)

Steampunkette said:


> The amount of "Fighting back creates more Nazis!", here, is just disturbing.




The Red Army and the men landing in Normandy from the Western Allies certainly disagree with the above statement. They fought back, and destroyed the Nazis.

British PM Neville Chamberlain would also disagree, seeing as his policy of Appeasement leading up to WW2 breaking out was a dismal failure.

The liberals in the Weimar republic also tried a peaceful solution, and they were the first to get it in the neck (along with the much more antagonistic Socialists who were fighting the Nazis). I just cant imagine how rolling over to Hitler or 'peaceful debate and protest' is much of a weapon, when your opponents are.... well _Nazis_.

That said most of the 'Nazis' these days are just incel edgelords that spend too much time on 4chan getting brainwashed by memes, Kremlin misinformation and conspiracy theories (which is clearly where our good incel edgelord friend the topic of this thread clearly got his ideas from).

Of course the issue then is many of these incels actually get fully brainwashed and then we have livestreamed mass murders on 8Kun, or people storming the US Capital seeking to overthrow a democracy.

What a time to be alive.


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## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

Horwath said:


> Do you want more nazis? Because this is how you get more nazis!
> 
> This kind of rhetoric will only drive people that have some nazi sympathy completely into their camp.
> 
> ...



Just to be clear, that pacifism.  It's fine.  I'll gladly fight for you to be able to use it.

The problem is, Nazis do not subscribe to your enlightened viewpoint.  They take advantage of society's attempts to negotiate by following all the rules when standing in the light, and using violence in the shadows.  They are bad faith actors.

Facts are, it's really easy for people to talk about the use of high-morality choices when it's not you they are aiming at.  When family members and friends start disappearing in the night, and your neighbors start putting on white sheets and hoods at the local lodge meeting?  Makes that attitude a touch less philosophical.

And it's NOT censorship.  It's repercussions.  It's hate speech that condones and excites violence.  If that comes home to roost in a way they do not like, I cannot really complain.  

But sadly, the idea you get more nazis by removing them?  That's perhaps moderately right.  On the other hand, you can just start removing them faster, and make up the difference. 

And for the record, my grandfather's parents were German.  You have NEVER met a man with more loathing for an ideology than him.  They were his one exception to his pacifistic ways.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Flamestrike said:


> The liberals in the Weimar republic also tried a peaceful solution, and they were the first to get it in the neck (along with the much more antagonistic Socialists who were fighting the Nazis). I just cant imagine how rolling over to Hitler or 'peaceful debate and protest' is much of a weapon, when your opponents are.... well _Nazis_.



i don't know why people think "we should talk those on the fence back to there senses and argue against there insane evil politics" some how also means "never go to war, let there soldiers win"... 

you can BOTH support physical violence when needed AND disagree on when it is needed.

the entire "if you want to try to help people AND stop the nazis, you sound a lot like a nazi" always weirds me out.


Flamestrike said:


> That said most of the 'Nazis' these days are just incel edgelords that spend too much time on 4chan getting brainwashed by memes, Kremlin misinformation and conspiracy theories (which is clearly where our good incel edgelord friend the topic of this thread clearly got his ideas from).



and those people need to be talked to. they need to be reached out to BEFORE they go too far. use your words and show them a better way, don't punch them and make them just go deeper into a hidden cabal of evil.


Flamestrike said:


> Of course the issue then is many of these incels actually get fully brainwashed and then we have livestreamed mass murders on 8Kun, or people storming the US Capital seeking to overthrow a democracy.



and again when the time comes I 100% support the need for people to physically stand up to them.


Flamestrike said:


> What a time to be alive.



aggreed


----------



## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

We will scare the Nazis away with the terrifying sight of our soft, soft underbellies.


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## dragoner (May 17, 2022)

The take away from the Holocaust was that they mean what they say, so our fighting nazis is self-defense, nothing wrong with protecting oneself, and one's family. That is pretty much without question.


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## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> We will scare the Nazis away with the terrifying sight of our soft, soft underbellies.



Be good....
I mean, it was funny,  but stop that.


----------



## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

FoolishFrost said:


> Facts are, it's really easy for people to talk about the use of high-morality choices when it's not you they are aiming at.  When family members and friends start disappearing in the night, and your neighbors start putting on white sheets and hoods at the local lodge meeting?  Makes that attitude a touch less philosophical.



this is just insulting.
plenty of marginalized people are non or less violent EVEN when they know they are in danger. Plenty of people who love and support those marginalized targeted people BOTH want to talk them out of being Nazis, AND are willing (and in some cases able) to engage in more physical things if that comes...



FoolishFrost said:


> And it's NOT censorship.  It's repercussions.  It's hate speech that condones and excites violence.  If that comes home to roost in a way they do not like, I cannot really complain.



that is partially correct. When the state and legal system does it.  I don't want BATMAN in real life. I don't want people vigilante style chooseing who is 'wrong enough to get punched' and I VERY much don't want PUNISHER in real life. I don't want vigilante style chooseing who is is 'wrong enough to get shot'


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## Ibrandul (May 17, 2022)

I clicked the link and looked at all the pics and watched all the videos. There's no doubt in my mind that it adds up to a clear picture of a very troubled and hateful individual, and that shining light upon this is on balance a good thing to do.

What I want to speak to is the discussion about how to respond.

There's some support being expressed here for vigilante violence against far-right individuals.

What I want to contribute to the discussion is to repeat the classic observation, originally derived from neo-Marxist academic cultural studies, that (I'm paraphrasing) "conjunctural analysis must precede the development of political strategy and tactics"—a fancy way of saying that what you decide to _do_ should depend on a clear-eyed view of the present sociohistorical situation.

That situation varies geographically. It's not the same everywhere. And on the internet it's not always obvious where everyone is located. So maybe where you live, provoking violence against ideological extremists is strategically and tactically sound.

But let me tell you, as a resident of a so-called "purple state" in the USA, here is my pithy conjunctural analysis: the present situation here is one in which my nation is in real danger of descending into a "hot" civil war in the next two to five years. If this happens, there is virtually _zero chance_ that the "good guys" will win, because the "good guys" are massively outgunned. And if _that_ happens, I daresay almost everyone using this website, wherever they are located and whatever their identity, would suffer from it to some degree, directly or indirectly—and some of them would suffer immensely.

Therefore, in the present US conjuncture, bolstering minimal social cohesion throughout all demographics—the mere norm that it would be unjustified, terrible, and fruitless to start waging literal war on the "other side"—must be a top priority; and, dangerously, this idea is not being bolstered, rather it is being quite knowingly dismissed and destroyed by nearly all quarters, for a wide variety of reasons. This is, in my view, especially naive when it comes from the US left; championing left political violence in the USA today requires some combination of ignorance and irrationality, given the current power differential between the right and the left here.

This does not have to mean "appeasement" of the far right. It does have to mean refusing to escalate physical violence or otherwise contribute to accelerating the ongoing radicalization of heretofore "moderate" conservative demographics.


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> this assumes people are 'born' or 'always' evil. that no one was ever persuaded by evil. that no one ever started down a dark path and was brought back.



No. It doesn't. It assumes that person was already on the Nazi Pipeline and just wasn't open about it. That they're way down that Dark Path and just carrying enough light that you didn't know.

There's nothing in that statement you quoted that has jack squat to do with "Born Evil" or Nature over Nurture or anything of the sort.

This is a Strawman.


GMforPowergamers said:


> that person that said you shouldn't have hit them MIGHT be a nazi, but they might also be someone that I could talk to and show that as much as the fistfight was a bit much, that the nazi DID start it with proposing violence against others.



Great! You talk them off the ledge, I'll punch the people actively and openly calling for my death, sending me death threats, and generally trying to convince others that I don't deserve the same rights as anyone else as part of their continued political pogrom to... My death.

And the death of everyone who isn't like them.

If that person ISN'T a Nazi they're not going to BECOME a Nazi over a fistfight, and you can still try and talk them down. Good luck. If you CAN'T talk them down, it's not because of the fistfight, it's because they were already a Nazi. 

You don't go "Uh! You can't hit him! He was just talking! Therefore DEATH TO ALL MINORITIES is my totally rational political swing in response to this situation!" 

And the idea that you could is laughable.


GMforPowergamers said:


> Yes the world need soldiers, the world needs cops. The world needs people who are willing to punch Nazi's... but the world also needs psychologists and aid workers and organizers and peaceful protesters... and people willing to talk, people who can pull people back from the brink.



The world doesn't need Soldiers or Cops but that's a whole other argument. 

Peaceful Protest works against GOVERNMENTS and BUSINESSES where public opinion impacts ELECTIONS and PROFITS. Not Nazi jerkwads who don't currently have power. Peaceful Protests, for them, bring CAMERAS and the chance to present their horrible, terrible, evil views as being reasonable. "Both Sides" politics gives the Nazi Political Machine weight it should not, and does not, have.

Also Peaceful Protest doesn't work against Nazi Governments. Several people tried and got arrested, tried, convicted, and beheaded between breakfast and dinner of the same day.


GMforPowergamers said:


> Have you ever noticed dispirit lone people are all evil? of course not. but alot of those evil people can convince  dispirit lone people to join up...



Look, friend, if you wanna try and save lone dispirit people from becoming Nazis that's fine. I'm never gonna try to stop you.

But I'm also gonna punch any lone dispirit person that becomes a Nazi. BECAUSE THEY'VE BECOME A NAZI. They've passed over the moral threshold at that point and as kind of a person as they could be, they get violence in response. And maybe that violence will shake them out of it. Maybe it won't.

But you do not get to tell people who are the targets of Bigotry not to fight back against bigotry by any means needed. 

Sure stopped the Nazis for a long while after the whole world rose up and beat them down, together. Maybe it can work, again!



GMforPowergamers said:


> well connected to what? people in prisons?



People get out of prison. And then you've got White Supremacists from across the state (or however wide the net is for the population of that prison) talking to each other and organizing. Kind of like... Y'know.

Happens currently.


GMforPowergamers said:


> people are not born evil. people are taught evil. You need to teach people GOOD too. Yes there are points that people may be too far gone to be helped and need to be locked away (or worse) but the idea is to try to get to as many as possible BEFORE that.



This is still a Strawman.


GMforPowergamers said:


> and the amount of harm they cause is reduced in some case negated when you help them back to the light.



Great! For that guy. And the next guy over that you could never talk down if you spent 20 years gently debating him?

Needs to be shown he is not accepted in society with his horrible views. No debate. No discussion. No wheedling. Just kicked right out of society before his horror can spread further.


GMforPowergamers said:


> and what... they punch back, or worse? what happens if they have suppior force?



Then either I die a Martyr or people come to my aid.

In either case, the Nazi is shown that his actions and ideas are invalid both by my violent response and the social or physical response of others.

But at least I'll have stood up to Nazis in my life, rather than passively letting them spread their hatred. Or, worse, given some measure of validity to their position by trying to debate it.


GMforPowergamers said:


> Hidden cults of Nazis are not much better than outspoken ones.



Sure they are. Hidden cults of Nazis can't do much of anything when tipping their hand means society immediately turns against them, violently.

And since any of their political aspirations generally involve tipping their hands... well.

Don't get me wrong. I certainly think we should hunt down Nazis and other bigots in every institution we have, like the US Military did, and the FBI tried to do to our police forces (But got told to shove it). I think we should Twitter-Ban and Facebook-Ban and generally Ban Nazis from literally every aspect of society...

But I don't have that power. And while I may advocate for such things, I don't do it while trying to "Save the Good Nazi" along the way.


GMforPowergamers said:


> and not everyone is Spencer



Yaaaay... Don't care.

Accepting Nazis and other forms of Supremacy or Bigotry into public forums for discussion isn't going to stop them. It empowers them. Gathering them all up and trying to teach them to have empathy for other people is a nice theory, but in practice it just results in the Nazi feeling like more people agree with him.

Nazis have to be pushed out of society. They have to be shut down. And in person? That generally means violence because the Nazi will refuse to leave society.

There's only one good answer to Nazis.


----------



## qstor (May 17, 2022)

What piece of (not wanting to get banned by Morrus)


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

jeremypowell said:


> This does not have to mean "appeasement" of the far right.



I clearly does when all opposition, from deplatforming to a simple punch to the face is all considered too far and 'vigilante violence' and we're told to be scared of their amount of guns (which is why they have the guns).

And all this talk of appeasement without saying appeasement is real easy to do for people who won't be first on the train to the gas chamber.


----------



## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> and again when the time comes I 100% support the need for people to physically stand up to them.




Just to be clear, "when the time comes" generally equates to, "When they've done enough damage and hurt enough people.  Specifically, something or someone I care about."

While I think we all understand laws are made to punish offenses, not prevent them...  I prefer to avoid waiting until they become a viable, organized threat.

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out— because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."
Martin Niemöller​
There is history about this.  We should not have to learn this all over again.  As a 50 year old, I can say I've directly spoken to people with tattoos and scars directly related to the "philosophy" of the nazis.  

And they are not the only ones:  We have the KKK, white supremist skinheads... Bigotry is rife in this country, and they are organized, political, and willing to use violence while they think they are being protected by legal and political means.  (I mean, they get abandoned at the drop of the hat, but these aren't the brightest people, yanno?)


----------



## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

I really, REALLY, hate the idea that I, and members of my minority groups and various other minority groups, should set aside our safety and comfort because MAYBE someone can talk SOME people out of wanting us dead.

And @FoolishFrost hit that nail right on the head...

"When the time comes".

"When I decide that the people I totally agree are bad and dangerous have done enough harm based on my personal tolerance for harm to myself and other people, only then is it time to fight back with the methods that I consider acceptable!"

It's ugly. It's so ugly.


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

Steampunkette said:


> This is a Strawman.



no it is a very detailed and thoughtful talk... the fact that you can just throw the word strawman out like that makes me think there is little we can discuse.


Steampunkette said:


> Great! You talk them off the ledge, I'll punch the people actively and openly calling for my death, sending me death threats, and generally trying to convince others that I don't deserve the same rights as anyone else as part of their continued political pogrom to... My death.
> 
> And the death of everyone who isn't like them.



you do realize those people call for my death too. They also call for the death of my cousins my half brother and my niece. 
you are not unique for being targeted by Nazis... they target A LOT of people... it's kind of how it is so easy to see how evil they are. 


Steampunkette said:


> If that person ISN'T a Nazi they're not going to BECOME a Nazi over a fistfight,



no, I doubt anyone WOULD become a nazi over a fist fight. However for someone throwing 'strawman' around you are taking alot of what I said, ignoring the parts that don't fit your counter argument and then trying to make a simple 1+1 out of a VERY complex situation. 

The pipeline to becomeing an Nazi is long, and there are many points that you CAN talk people out of that path. However if that fist fight makes them ever so slightly more sympathetic to the person punched for talking and starts them down that path you did not help...


Steampunkette said:


> and you can still try and talk them down. Good luck. If you CAN'T talk them down, it's not because of the fistfight, it's because they were already a Nazi.



see you understand... at least in theory. No they can't all be talked down some are WAY too far gone. I would still like to save the ones I can. 


Steampunkette said:


> You don't go "Uh! You can't hit him! He was just talking! Therefore DEATH TO ALL MINORITIES is my totally rational political swing in response to this situation!"



wait did I say YOU shouldn't hit them, or did I say the world needs people who will AND people who wont and they need to work togather?  I don't remember telling YOU or anyone not do what you think is best... I do remember saying that without people like me there is a risk of you making it worse... but never did I tell you not to do what you think is best.


Steampunkette said:


> The world doesn't need Soldiers or Cops but that's a whole other argument.



please don't go there


Steampunkette said:


> Peaceful Protest works against GOVERNMENTS and BUSINESSES



yup.


Steampunkette said:


> Not Nazi jerkwads who don't currently have power.



did I say that peacful protest would stop spencer, or any nazi/neo nazi that was already too far gone? no I said talking to people in the pipeline to becomeing them can help thin the ranks of the worst. 
again you throw strawman around then pic a peace of the idea out of context and argue against an argument I am not making.


Steampunkette said:


> Peaceful Protests, for them, bring CAMERAS and the chance to present their horrible, terrible, evil views as being reasonable. "Both Sides" politics gives the Nazi Political Machine weight it should not, and does not, have.



what both sides... there side is evil and I want to show how evil it is and convince as many people as possible not to get close to it. 


Steampunkette said:


> Also Peaceful Protest doesn't work against Nazi Governments.



did someone suggest that? 


Steampunkette said:


> Several people tried and got arrested, tried, convicted, and beheaded between breakfast and dinner of the same day.



non violent people were also killed arrested and beheaded for hiding people that were targets when if they had just NOT DONE ANYTHING they themselves would not be targets... the fact that what they did to help was not violent is not the same as doing nothing


Steampunkette said:


> But you do not get to tell people who are the targets of Bigotry not to fight back against bigotry by any means needed.



if I don't get to tell people anything (especially since I never said not to fight back) why do you get to tell people who are targets of Bigotry how they can react to it?


Steampunkette said:


> People get out of prison. And then you've got White Supremacists from across the state (or however wide the net is for the population of that prison) talking to each other and organizing. Kind of like... Y'know.



yes people get out of prison. I am 100% of the mind we need to work more on reform and less on punishment, but when they comit there next crime (or in a perfect world well planing it) they go back. 

do you think every criminal ever needs to be killed? do you want the punisher?


Steampunkette said:


> reat! For that guy. And the next guy over that you could never talk down if you spent 20 years gently debating him?G



that is why you need BOTH people talking and people willing to punch... but they need to not turn on each other.


Steampunkette said:


> Then either I die a Martyr or people come to my aid.



or you die alone and no one knows... not everyone gets to be a protaganist and you sshould not assume you can force everyone to be willing to throw there life away.


Steampunkette said:


> But at least I'll have stood up to Nazis in my life, rather than passively letting them spread their hatred.



what makes you think I am not standing up to them? because my default weapon is words not punches? because my default is to shield not attack?


Steampunkette said:


> Or, worse, given some measure of validity to their position by trying to debate it.



right becuse argueing against evil is evil... this is the argument i hate and scares me that people make.


Steampunkette said:


>



you are not a superhero... and in the real world I don't want vigilantes who answer to no one making choices based on what they think is right and wrong (notice that describe MOST heroes and villains)


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## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

GMforPowergamers said:


> no it is a very detailed and thoughtful talk... the fact that you can just throw the word strawman out like that makes me think there is little we can discuse.



OK, so there's a lot of threads right now which have devolved into you have one very long intense argument with a single person. It seems to happen in many of the threads you participate in, and it's becoming really disruptive to the forum. I'm going to need you to disengage (again).


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## GMforPowergamers (May 17, 2022)

removed per Morris right as I was posting


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## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

As a side note:  
You do know this is not the only kind of bigotry going on, right?  It's across the board.  It's political.  It's the exploitation of marginalized groups of all types in order to motivate a group in a single direction.  The primary motivators are to gather sociopolitical power for those at the top of the food chain, and weaponize the base against what they consider their enemies.

They do their best to limit education, prevent any competing power structures, and using peer pressure and powerful threats to get those neutral and against them to step in line.  All the while, inserting more and more people into positions of power.  Not all of these positions are political


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## grimslade (May 17, 2022)

Nope. Put me in the Nazis do not get to be in society unless they fully recant their antisocial ethos. Sometimes you can deplatform. Sometimes you punch them in the head. White Supremacy is a cancer that must be combated at its very whisper.
NuTSR can enjoy another bag of sodium crusted members for giving this slime mold any daylight.


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## ReshiIRE (May 17, 2022)

Feck fascists. Feck tolerance for them. I've seen these bastards spew their naughty word online and get away with it.

Get them the fuek offline and out of public and political spaces. They don't fester in the dark, they die in the dark.

Ths naughty word has to stop well, well before things get worse. Cause they're already pretty naughty word bad.


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## DLIMedia (May 17, 2022)

Well this thread is going as could be expected...


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## Professor Murder (May 17, 2022)

People who feel we can just talk it out with Nazis, that feel the need to defend free speech even when it is vile, to be blunt, such people can do so because they will not be the people up against the wall when the time comes, not at first at least. To also be frank, I have enough privilege to know I would not be one of them either. So why do I not feel this generous? Because quite simply, we have already had this discussion. You don't need to hear people out forever. When genocide is a part of someone's desires, I don't need to hash out why. I just have to try to stop them. Is violence the answer? That's not for me to say. I am not going to be one of the first up against the wall. I will say it would be arrogant of me to demand that people under threat by White Supremacists fight against it as I dictate.


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

Political compromise is great! I love finding the middle ground!

When the middle ground is "Fine, only half of every minority group has to die." or "Instead of killing you all, we'll just constantly commit violence against you based on things you can't change about yourself." there is no compromise.

A Nazi can stop being a Nazi. They can take off the jackboots and put away their ugly ideas and be a part of society. The people they hate cannot be made to change the things they hate.

There can be no middle ground.

There can be no compromise.

There can be no debate.

And TSR works with at least one out and out Nazi. I doubt they'll refute him, or cast aside his 'work'.

When you've got 11 reasonable people and 1 Nazi sitting at a table having a reasonable discussion you have 12 Nazis at a table.


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## billd91 (May 17, 2022)

Steampunkette said:


> Meanwhile, you punch a Nazi and they learn that Nazism isn't accepted within arm's reach of you. Everyone punches the Nazis and they learn there's nowhere that is safe to be a Nazi. That they have to hide it. That it's something society considers to be unacceptable.
> 
> Then they have a choice. Stop being a Nazi (or at least openly so), or keep getting punched in the teeth.
> 
> ...



That, I think, is giving far too much power to a single punch. I think a very strong factor in getting him turtling up is probably the lawsuit brought to bear on him as well as the legal trouble of his followers. I couldn't even say that his wife filing for divorce and accusing him of abuse was a downstream impact of him being punched in public.

Getting into fights is what Nazis do. It's what brought them to power in the 1930s. It's what keeps the hard core radicalized. Before they brought the case about marching rights in Skokie back in 1977, the NSPA mostly just got beat up and it never stopped them. And when they finally did march, after changing location from Skokie to Chicago, they were utterly dwarfed by the counter protest (by something like 100 to 1). *That* is what seems to work best. Turn out to countermarch/counterprotest. Bullies don't seem to handle being outnumbered very well. Plus, it undermines their momentum - being the ones to turn out in large number emboldens them. 

Edit: It also takes their implicit threat of mob violence from them and turns it into a losing proposition. You don't even have to deploy the violence in the end.


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## Crimson Longinus (May 17, 2022)

I feel there is rather unfair binary being presented here. It's not a choice between appeasement and physical violence.

I fully believe that hate speech should be prosecuted, I think bigots should be deplatformed and generally not welcomed in the society.

I'm still a tad sceptical about the merits of violent vigilante justice thought... Sure, I certainly grant that there are rare situations where violence is a valid choice, albeit my bar is pretty damn high there.

There was recently this news story about a taxi driver who told bigots to get out of his car and was very clear about why. This is the attitude everyone should have. But had this guy started to_ punch_ the prospective customers, the reporting might have had a rather different tone...


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## Professor Murder (May 17, 2022)

I think we should also accept the stark reality that if a persecuted minority member goes out to harm a White Nationalist, they are at best going to risk arrest if not being killed by law enforcement, while a White Nationalist can walk out of a supermarket after executing some ten people and police will do all they can to take them in alive.


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## Blue Orange (May 17, 2022)

From what little I can tell, Spencer seems to have been stopped by the legal actions against him after the Unite the Right rally went violent. You don't see much from him after that. The punch deflated him a little, but he obviously survived it. So...was punching Spencer really all that effective? Not sure. In the larger sense of 'is punching Nazis _a good idea_' (not moral, no ethical problem with it on my end)...antifa does seem to have at least provided a countervailing force to the more violent right-wing demonstrations so I guess yes, it does work.

The (actual) Nazis killed a bunch of my (distant) relatives too, so I've no love for LaNasa and the like (who seems to be the real deal), and I want to see these guys fail.

So...what's the actual best way to fight the far-right? Not sure, honestly. Every country and time is unique--there's no guarantee that the strategies that succeeded elsewhere will here, and anyway whatever was tried in Weimar failed. A lot of it has to do with overall material conditions (makes me sound like a leftist)--extreme viewpoints are less attractive when times are good.

I think unionization would help--it unites working-class people across racial lines--and a stronger welfare state (worked here in the USA in the 1930s).

I do think a lot of this 'all cishet white men are bad' stuff in the media hurts, TBH. There are a lot of lower- and middle-class men in that demographic who aren't particularly privileged, and it definitely has a radicalizing effect from what I've seen. That and in an era of demographic change, crowing about how you're going to replace people (Michelle Goldberg in the NYT comes to mind) and talking about having one billion Americans (thanks Matt Yglesias!) is a bad idea. (Forget race, tripling your population sounds awful.) You honor those who came before and welcome new arrivals--we're all part of the polity. IMHO, of course. You usually wind up having to coopt the center-right at some point--not enough of the country leans left. After all, Winston Churchill kept Hitler out of the UK.

EDIT: Winston Churchill _and several million Tommies _kept Hitler out of the UK.


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

Professor Murder said:


> I think we should also accept the stark reality that if a persecuted minority member goes out to harm a White Nationalist, they are at best going to risk arrest if not being killed by law enforcement, while a White Nationalist can walk out of a supermarket after executing some ten people and police will do all they can to take them in alive.



Go after a white nationalist?

A guy in my city got iced for carrying Subway sandwiches into his house.


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## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

Crimson Longinus said:


> I feel there is rather unfair binary being presented here. It's not a choice between appeasement and physical violence.




I believe the problem is not this.

I didn't see much discussing appeasement, as much as refusing to engage in vocal discussion with a person aligning with a group that thinks genocide is a historically proven way to protect your interests.

Perhaps, the problem here is, they're NAZIS.  Just being a part of such a group means you are aligned with the use of violence against those you deem "Lesser".  At this point, the table is kinda being set for preemptive strikes...


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## HammerMan (May 17, 2022)

Professor Murder said:


> I think we should also accept the stark reality that if a persecuted minority member goes out to harm a White Nationalist, they are at best going to risk arrest if not being killed by law enforcement, while a White Nationalist can walk out of a supermarket after executing some ten people and police will do all they can to take them in alive.



This

The legal force of the nation I live in is broken (I don’t know if it is in other countries)


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## HammerMan (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> I do think a lot of this 'all cishet white men are bad' stuff in the media hurts, TBH. There are a lot of lower- and middle-class men in that demographic who aren't particularly privileged, and it definitely has a radicalizing effect from what I've seen.



this is at best a misrepresentation and at worst (I hope) a dog whistle repeated unknowingly. 
There is NOT a movement against straight white men.


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

billd91 said:


> That, I think, is giving far too much power to a single punch. I think a very strong factor in getting him turtling up is probably the lawsuit brought to bear on him as well as the legal trouble of his followers. I couldn't even say that his wife filing for divorce and accusing him of abuse was a downstream impact of him being punched in public.
> 
> Getting into fights is what Nazis do. It's what brought them to power in the 1930s. It's what keeps the hard core radicalized. Before they brought the case about marching rights in Skokie back in 1977, the NSPA mostly just got beat up and it never stopped them. And when they finally did march, after changing location from Skokie to Chicago, they were utterly dwarfed by the counter protest (by something like 100 to 1). *That* is what seems to work best. Turn out to countermarch/counterprotest. Bullies don't seem to handle being outnumbered very well. Plus, it undermines their momentum - being the ones to turn out in large number emboldens them.
> 
> Edit: It also takes their implicit threat of mob violence from them and turns it into a losing proposition. You don't even have to deploy the violence in the end.



Getting into fights didn't bring the Nazis into power in the 1930s. It -almost- destroyed them at the Beerhaul Putsch but the Weimar Republic wanted to be "Tolerant" and didn't do what needs to be done with the intolerant.

And sure, the 1970s you could peacefully protest Nazis and outnumber them and it be presented as some big victory over them... but that was when there were still laws about how stuff had to be presented in media and the like. Back when journalists actually had convictions and a responsibility to be objective.

Now? "Both Sides" is the name of the game, with people bending over backwards to be tolerant of intolerant people. Same situation as the 1930s.

I will acknowledge that him losing his wife probably wasn't because of the punch... But that was mostly carrying on the old school country song I had in my head where you lose everything.


Crimson Longinus said:


> I feel there is rather unfair binary being presented here. It's not a choice between appeasement and physical violence.
> 
> I fully believe that hate speech should be prosecuted, I think bigots should be deplatformed and generally not welcomed in the society.
> 
> ...



To be clear: I'm not sincerely advocating that everyone in proximity with a Nazi should punch them. Punching Nazis is a reference to violence, but as we all know not all violence is physical. Deplatforming? Literally a form of sociopolitical violence used against minorities all the time.

Sometimes it does mean shouting them down with larger numbers. Sometimes it means passing laws against them. Sometimes it means creating systems of oppression which make it infeasible to be a Nazi. But it never -ever- means Debating them. Convincing them. Being Gentle with them. It means being violent and extreme against their ideology.

Though I do, also, mean punching for me, and for people who want to punch Nazis. Because that is self-defense. They want me dead, I have the right to fight back.

Also, I love the idea that punching a Nazi who gets close to me is being presented as Vigilante Justice. Like I'm strapping on a cape and cowl, heading to Nazi hangouts, and getting into BIFF BAM KERPOW fist fights with them.

There's a reason I said Nazi Bars have to be shut down, kicked out, etc. No one person is gonna march in there and beat all the Nazis with their mighty fists.


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> I do think a lot of this 'all cishet white men are bad' stuff in the media hurts, TBH.



Mythical persecution cooked up by the scumbags does hurt, yes.

Pretending it's a real thing while professing to be against those guys also.


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## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> So...what's the actual best way to fight the far-right? Not sure, honestly. Every country and time is unique--there's no guarantee that the strategies that succeeded elsewhere will here, and anyway whatever was tried in Weimar failed. A lot of it has to do with overall material conditions (makes me sound like a leftist)--extreme viewpoints are less attractive when times are good.
> 
> I think unionization would help--it unites working-class people across racial lines--and a stronger welfare state (worked here in the USA in the 1930s).




Well, education helps.  If you can stop people neutering education.  Unions help, but those keep getting kneecapped at every level... partially due to education being hampered for so long...  Improving infrastructure to make jobs can help... Oh... Right...  Wait, what about passing laws to enforce equal rights?  Repealed, you say?  Uh...

...

I got nothing.


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## HammerMan (May 17, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> Mythical persecution cooked up by the scumbags does hurt, yes.
> 
> Pretending it's a real thing while professing to be against those guys also.



Like I said hopefully an unintended use of that propaganda dog whistles


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## billd91 (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> I think unionization would help--it unites working-class people across racial lines--and a stronger welfare state (worked here in the USA in the 1930s).



You might hope so, but American history has been spotty on that since unions have a history of being fairly conservative along some topics - including race relations. Things have the potential to be better now, if union membership grows again, since their main political allies have shed their harshest, white supremacist roots (which are now increasingly proudly borne up by the other party).


Blue Orange said:


> You usually wind up having to coopt the center-right at some point--not enough of the country leans left. After all, Winston Churchill kept Hitler out of the UK.



Yeah, but until British Imperial interests started looking directly threatened, Churchill was awfully enamored of fascism. The role of the center-right in Weimar Germany can't be underestimated though. They tolerated the hell out of the SA and Nazis because they mostly fought Communists and Social Democrats, one of whom was openly pro-Soviet, the other substantially responsible for ousting the emperor. Had enough of the center and center-right held with the Social Democrats or helped bolster the Weimar Republic, millions of people might not have suffered.


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## Bill Zebub (May 17, 2022)

I'm too lazy to dig up references, but I remember reading something (maybe in the Economist?) about how one of the most effective way to counter Nazis is to laugh at them.  They're just _hoping_ somebody will start a fight at one of their rallies because it drives recruitment, but if you line the route of their march dressed in clown outfits, with signs that say "Wife Power!" and throwing white flour (get it?) in the air, with everybody laughing their heads off, it makes it very difficult for them to find new recruits.


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## Blue Orange (May 17, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> Mythical persecution cooked up by the scumbags does hurt, yes.
> 
> Pretending it's a real thing while professing to be against those guys also.




Oh, I genuinely am against Nazis.

I also think the media leans left, albeit a sort of business-friendly left that divides by race and gender rather than class.

The two are not mutually exclusive. 

I actually would support labor laws more protective of unions, repealing Taft-Hartley, etc.


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> Oh, I genuinely am against Nazis.
> 
> I also think the media leans left, albeit a sort of business-friendly left that divides by race and gender rather than class.
> 
> ...



None of them precludes you buying into a false narrative and perpetuating it. We all do it sometimes, but it is important to recognize and rescind it.


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## billd91 (May 17, 2022)

Steampunkette said:


> Getting into fights didn't bring the Nazis into power in the 1930s. It -almost- destroyed them at the Beerhaul Putsch but the Weimar Republic wanted to be "Tolerant" and didn't do what needs to be done with the intolerant.



Oh, it sure did. You're missing a full additional decade of violence unlimbered against their opponents, unions, and Jews as well as intimidation at the polls, all tolerated by the right-wing police and judiciary. And just look at the wrist slaps meted out to the leadership of the Putsch. A coup attempt led to a setback in 1923, but when the violence was directed at lower-level enemies rather than the state, it was effective.


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## Morrus (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> I do think a lot of this 'all cishet white men are bad' stuff in the media hurts, TBH. There are a lot of lower- and middle-class men in that demographic who aren't particularly privileged, and it definitely has a radicalizing effect from what I've seen.



I find it frustrating that in 2022 people are still mistaking what 'privilege' is. For the record, privilege *does not mean you have no hardships*. Lots of people have hardships. Lots of people are poor. Lots of people suffer daily. 'Privilege', specifically, means those hardships are not *due to your identity*, whether that be as a person of colour, a transgender person, etc. This should not need to still be repeated after all this time. So yes, cishet white men, even those with hardships, are privileged.

I know the word 'privilege' sounds like its means 'has no hardships' but that's not what it means. And it's important to understand that. You can have hardship and still be privileged.


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## HammerMan (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> Oh, I genuinely am against Nazis.



I’m glad. I hope all or at least 99% of us can agree with that. 

But you still repeated there propaganda. 
Now you may have heard it from someone that didn’t know and THEY may have but when you go back far enough you will find what you said originates in hate.


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## FoolishFrost (May 17, 2022)

Bill Zebub said:


> I'm too lazy to dig up references, but I remember reading something (maybe in the Economist?) about how one of the most effective way to counter Nazis is to laugh at them.  They're just _hoping_ somebody will start a fight at one of their rallies because it drives recruitment, but if you line the route of their march dressed in clown outfits, with signs that say "Wife Power!" and throwing white flour (get it?) in the air, with everybody laughing their heads off, it makes it very difficult for them to find new recruits.



Or cosplay as the joker and try to help them recruit in the worst ways, and then go "Wait?  You're NAZIS?  What do you think I am, CRAZY?"


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## Blue Orange (May 17, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> None of them precludes you buying into a false narrative and perpetuating it. We all do it sometimes, but it is important to recognize and rescind it.




I've thought it over, and I think, as TVTropes has it, 'Villain Has a Point'.  (Villain being the far-right here. And yes, they want to kill me too, I'm aware of that. Evil people can be right about stuff--Philipp Lenard wasn't wrong about cathode rays because he was a Nazi.)

So for a long time there were a lot of negative portrayals of ethnic minorities in TV, movies, etc. (One of the original ten rules of the mystery story concerns the fad at the time for Chinese villains.) They got together and made pressure groups to stop that, with the result that villains tend to be predominantly white males these days (look at the recent Star Wars movies for a recent example). You can see how that would backfire.

Similarly, you get all kinds of cases where the media hides the race of a gunman if he's a minority, refers to 'mostly peaceful' protests, etc. (Quite a few merchants had their stores burnt down.) Are they doing the right thing in trying to avoid ethnic stereotyping? I guess, but if you're a member of the declining majority it sure starts to look conspiratorial.

On a larger scale, while I can see affirmative action for African-Americans and Native Americans/First Nations as a form of reparations, it's not clear why someone whose relatives voluntarily come here should get preference over a native (of course, they shouldn't be _discriminated against_ either)...and I say that as the first generation born in the USA!

And about that declining majority...I don't know, given the history of ethnic conflict in just about every nation in the world (and not just European-descended ones either...look at the violence against overseas Chinese merchants in other parts of Asia), I can see them being worried about outnumbered.


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## Ruin Explorer (May 17, 2022)

HammerMan said:


> this is at best a misrepresentation and at worst (I hope) a dog whistle repeated unknowingly.
> There is NOT a movement against straight white men.



I also very much doubt the "radicalizing effect". 

I can only speak for Britain in detail but there's one thing that radicalizes men, and it's not being told cis-het white men are bad, it's being self-pitying losers. Long before "cis het men are bad" was even dreamed over, back in the 1950s and even earlier, self-pitying losers were buying into extremist ideologies.

Simple as that. The same goes for Islamist terrorists and no doubt for many other kinds of terrorist too. You look at their personalities and histories, and where it's discussing, what they post about. They're universally self-pitying losers. And this has been true through history, very clearly.


Blue Orange said:


> I also think the media leans left, albeit a sort of business-friendly left that divides by race and gender rather than class.



What does that even mean though?

I think what you're trying to say is that the US news media tends not to support bigotry on the basis of race/gender/sexuality, except for the massive section that does, and none of the news media, either bigot-supporting or otherwise, supports any kind of leftist fiscal policies at all even slightly (this is what I think you mean by "business friendly" - solidly right-wing fiscal policies).

And even that requires an incredible Overton-window shift. Eisenhower's "right" is far, far to the left of where the US center is now, for example.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 17, 2022)

“Privilege” isn’t an aegis against hard times & difficulties, it’s a set of baked in advantages.  As someone else put it, you’re playing the game on the “Easy” setting while others play on “Normal” or “Hard”- you can still lose, but your odds of winning are boosted.


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

What people who are advocating talking and understanding don't get is... they aren't understanding how authoritarians work.

And authoritarian is someone who recognizes internally that they don't have their crap together, but either through ego or upbringing, cannot abide by actually entering into a give and take relationship to get help. Instead, they want a big powerful daddy who will in turn empower them as their vassal.

And the only power they value is force and shows of force. That's why the love military parades and pageantry and symbols and regalia: the only power they understand or respect is the projection of force. They see trying to talk to someone, showing tolerance, leaving people alone -- *as weakness*. So when you try and talk to them, tolerate them, or leave them alone, *they take that as a win*. It encourages them to roll over you because you are not presenting any of the resistance they recognize as such.

Cutting their force, via deplatforming, via public humiliation, etc absolutely works. Look at all the oinking sadness that comes up whenever they get so much as a ban until they remove their tweet calling for violence. Another big, strong daddy stepped in and removed their power and they can't handle it. But when that daddy just slaps them on the wrist, they learn they can get away with more and more just like the sad toddlers they are.

The key is to remove and undermine their power however and whenever possible without offering them any of the respect or 'politeness' they demand because if you concede anything, you are rewarding their behavior.


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> I've thought it over, and I think, as TVTropes has it, 'Jerkass Has a Point'.  (Jerkass being the far-right here. And yes, they want to kill me too, I'm aware of that. )
> 
> So for a long time there were a lot of negative portrayals of ethnic minorities in TV, movies, etc. (One of the original ten rules of the mystery story concerns the fad at the time for Chinese villains.) They got together and made pressure groups to stop that, with the result that villains tend to be predominantly white males these days (look at the recent Star Wars movies for a recent example). You can see how that would backfire.
> 
> ...



So... just doubling down then?

Cool. Cool.


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## Ruin Explorer (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> They got together and made pressure groups to stop that, with the result that villains tend to be predominantly white males these days (look at the recent Star Wars movies for a recent example). You can see how that would backfire.



This is extremely silly, facile and superficial thinking, I'm afraid.

Your example shows how muddled and confused your thinking is here. The original SW movies, 4/5/6, have villains that are solely white men (and I guess Jabba? but he's not human). No-one on those starship bridges is female or non-white.

Whereas in 7/8/9, where female villains, and we have non-white villains - admittedly most of the latter only have a single line or the like, but people discussed it quite a lot and somehow it seems you totally missed it? Did you actually watch the recent SW movies?

Your point is thus obviously wrong by your own example. 4/5/6 = white males sole villains - 7/8/9 they are joined by women and non-white villains.


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## HammerMan (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> I've thought it over, and I think, as TVTropes has it, 'Villain Has a Point'.  (Villain being the far-right here. And yes, they want to kill me too, I'm aware of that. )



This isn’t helping.  In theory a Nazi and I could agree on our favorite color but when you start even a little seeing there political theory as having a point you are on a SUPER slippery slope.  

The fact is (meaning to or not) you have just doubled down on the propaganda.


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## Steampunkette (May 17, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Oh, it sure did. You're missing a full additional decade of violence unlimbered against their opponents, unions, and Jews as well as intimidation at the polls, all tolerated by the right-wing police and judiciary. And just look at the wrist slaps meted out to the leadership of the Putsch. A coup attempt led to a setback in 1923, but when the violence was directed at lower-level enemies rather than the state, it was effective.



Yes... and no.

I'm not "Missing" it. I'm saying that they didn't want fights. Yeah, during the 1920s and 30s they engaged in stochastic violence all the time. But they didn't want -FIGHTS-.

They wanted routs. They wanted to go in swinging their fists and bats and pipes and whatever else at a set of victims who fled or cowered rather than responding with violence. Who would turn to police who sided with the Nazis and engaged in their rhetoric and supported them.

They didn't want fights. They wanted victims.

@Ruin Explorer is also right. At the core of them, Nazis are losers and cowards. If they had been opposed by the Police, the State, the People of Germany, they'd have collapsed like a house of soggy cards.

And in the US, today? There's a -LOT- of white supremacists and Nazis in uniform. And when a Nazi shoots up a club or a church or a store they'll do what they can to take him down gently and bring him in soft, just like the cops in the 20s and 30s for those Nazis.

So we have to fight. Whether that's physical like me punching a Nazi, or social like deplatforming on social media, or outright political through the passage of hate speech laws. We have to fight.

And of those three I push for two and punch for one.


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## Blue Orange (May 17, 2022)

Ruin Explorer said:


> This is extremely silly, facile and superficial thinking, I'm afraid.
> 
> Your example shows how muddled and confused your thinking is here. The original SW movies, 4/5/6, have villains that are solely white men (and I guess Jabba? but he's not human). No-one on those starship bridges is female or non-white.
> 
> ...




I saw them, but had sadly left the target age group. I enjoyed them as popcorn. It was kind of a bad example, and got way more attention than it deserved. I just figured everyone had seen the movies.


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## Vaalingrade (May 17, 2022)

Also, armor and voice aside, the villains of Star Wars were always white humans in a world of aliens and _specifically coded as Nazis. _In fact, the modern SW movies seem to imply every Stormtrooper is a brown person (albeit clones o child soldier conscripts) so...


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## Umbran (May 17, 2022)

*Mod Note:*

This thread has gone far from being about nuTSR and the behavior of its people, and has started getting personal.  Time for it to close, I'm afraid.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 17, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> it's not clear why someone whose relatives voluntarily come here should get preference over a native



Because not all of the institutional or societal  racism/bigotry happened “back then”- some of it is still ongoing.

Example: there’s been studies done showing that people with “typical American names” have significant hiring and promotional advantages in the American job market.  That is true whether your ancestors have been here 400 years or if you’re the first person in your family to live here.

The _Pigford_ cases were just settled in 2010.  In them, the USDA admitted a pattern of discrimination negatively affected the ability of over 200 minority individuals and families to acquire, operate and retain private family farms.  Damages were around $3.5B.  Approximately $750M of that was awarded to a single family who used that money to repurchase their farmland.  They got that because they alone of all the other litigants had the meticulous financial records to prove the full extent of their damages.  We have no idea as to the actual monetary damages suffered by the other 199+ plaintiffs.  We have no concept of how many people were treated similarly but couldn’t prove enough harm to be joined into the class-action lawsuit.

The agency’s wrongdoing wasn’t based on when you got here, just your status as a nonwhite person. And no agents were disciplined because of their actions/inactions- they’re still in those same positions.  At least one is noted to have received a family’s settlement check in hand as the agency’s representative when that family repurchased their farmland.

Edit: was composing while Umbran was closing the thread- mod account let it post.  Apologies.


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