# Important: Please Read! Changes Are Coming!



## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Subscriptions have been phenomenally successful! Why we didn't do this a decade ago, I don't know; but the last few months has made it plain that monthly subscriptions are popular, and are the way forward.

So, how well are they doing? Well enough that we need have no concerns whatsoever about EN World's viability and future. We're in a safe, secure place, financially speaking. But not so well that we can quite afford to splash out on new features - and I very much want to get things like a new Gamers Seeking Gamers engine, more columnists, more products like War of the Burning Sky, tools and facilities for online gaming, send people to report on conventions, and so on.

To this end, I'm rejigging the community supporter subscriptions a little. I haven't fully settled on the list (although nobody will lose anything from their subscription), but we're looking at an additional higher tier subscription for about $6, and moving forum signatures into the subscription framework. That means that signatures will be only be available to people who have a subscription. Why sigs, and why now? Well, as I mentioned the boards are now self-sustaining, and I now need to facilitate growth - not in terms of size, but in quality. To do that, I want to encourage people to become subscribers without removing access to all the threads and ideas here, ensuring that these thing - the _really_ important things - remain available to all. Limiting sigs to subscribers - a feature that I tend to find distracting - seemed to be the right choice. 

I realise this won't sit well with everybody; and I fully appreciate that it can feel like you're having something taken away from you. However, I firmly believe that the long-term benefits of this move will make up for it in spades. EN World needs to move forward and grow, and it's quite capable of doing that. We all love the place, but this is a venerable site now, and it's possible for us to do so much more than we could five years ago - really make this place the go-to place for finding nearby gamers, clubs, and events; and so much more. I have ambitious plans for us, but those plans don't come cheap!

Over the next few months we'll be upgrading the base software here and rejigging things here and there. You can already see that we've re-arranged the forum list a little to make things a little less cluttered and a little more intuitive. 

You're more than welcome to discuss the upcoming changes, and I'll be sure to post more details as and when I have them. These changes will take place over a period of time rather than in one fell swoop, and we'll try to keep you apprised in advance. 

Thanks for listening, guys! I hope that most of you can get on board with the coming changes, and that I've managed to explain the reasoning behind them.

- Russ


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 29, 2010)

You need to find a way to accept subscribers without the use of credit cards.

RC


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> You need to find a way to accept subscribers without the use of credit cards.




Without credit cards? As in cash or cheques? I'm afraid that neither of those are feasible. There's not much I can do with a $3 USD cheque other than make a paper plane out of it! 

You can link a PayPal account to a bank account, so that doesn't require a credit card. And debit cards work just fine, of course.


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## hewligan (Mar 29, 2010)

Am I correct that so far this announcement amounts to:

"Going forward, if you want a sig you have to pay $3 a month"???

If so - fine by me. I turn the blasted things off anyway as I find them a waste of screen real-estate.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

hewligan said:


> Am I correct that so far this announcement amounts to:
> 
> "Going forward, if you want a sig you have to pay $3 a month"???
> 
> If so - fine by me. I turn the blasted things off anyway as I find them a waste of screen real-estate.





That's one of the things, yes (although I haven't decided which tier subscription will have them yet).  But there's a crapload of changes coming which I hope I can prepare people for in advance - many of them nothing to do with subscriptions.


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## Rechan (Mar 29, 2010)

> more products like War of the Burning Sky



SWEET. I was wondering when the next AP or at least Adventure or Product would be coming down the pike.

Can we make requests?


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## samursus (Mar 29, 2010)

All sounds good to me... curious as to what you be offering for the $6 tier... I can't think of much in the way of services that would entice me.  And congrats on the monthly subscription model working!


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Rechan said:


> SWEET. I was wondering when the next AP or at least Adventure or Product would be coming down the pike.
> 
> Can we make requests?




Actually, yes.  We won't start even planning it until summer at the earliest, and won't start producing until 2011 at the earliest, so there's definitely time to influence what happens.

Probably best done in the WotBS forum, though.


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Without credit cards? As in cash or cheques? I'm afraid that neither of those are feasible. There's not much I can do with a $3 USD cheque other than make a paper plane out of it!




Why not just allow for a year to be paid in advance?  Two years?  Five?  Wouldn't that cheque be worthwhile?



> You can link a PayPal account to a bank account, so that doesn't require a credit card. And debit cards work just fine, of course.




Because of the recurrent nature of the withdrawal, PayPal required a credit card when I tried it last.  Again, an annual fee wouldn't have this problem.


RC


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

samursus said:


> All sounds good to me... curious as to what you be offering for the $6 tier...




Oh, sure - the $6 tier (Paragon, as opposed to the $3 which is Heroic) will undoubtedly be less popular than the base subscription; that's OK.  It'll be much the same as the existing subscription with some extras - quite probably the sigs, and a higher rep power (5 points or so).  It'll be there for those who want it.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> Why not just allow for a year to be paid in advance? Two years? Five? Wouldn't that cheque be worthwhile?




Like I used to, you mean?

Because it is disastrous for my cash flow. I need regular, predictable amounts coming in monthly, not chunks at random times every year or three years. I need to be abel to look at the accounts and predict with a high degree of accuracy what money is coming in next month, and the month after that, and in 8 months' time.  Switching to a monthy subscription only was quite possibly the best decision I ever made regarding this website - it turned around the finances in an alomst miraculous way, and is the reason we're still here.


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## Rechan (Mar 29, 2010)

Can one change be the ability to adjust how many posts appear in a thread? (i.e. you can change your own settings so a thread is displayed as 20 or 30 posts before shifting over to a new page of the thread). Assuming such a feature doesn't all ready exist. 

Not to be confused with how many threads show up on a page - this is how many posts in a thread.

15 posts in a thread before a new page is most tedious.


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 29, 2010)

removed


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## Lanefan (Mar 29, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> You need to find a way to accept subscribers without the use of credit cards.



Credit card is fine with me, but there needs to be a way of paying without involving paypal.

I'll be over in the UK in early summer; can I stop by and give you cash?

Lanefan


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Rechan said:


> Can one change be the ability to adjust how many posts appear in a thread? (i.e. you can change your own settings so a thread is displayed as 20 or 30 posts before shifting over to a new page of the thread). Assuming such a feature doesn't all ready exist.
> 
> Not to be confused with how many threads show up on a page - this is how many posts in a thread.




You can do all that from your account.  Or you should eb able to, at any rate.  If not it's a bug - let us know in Meta and we can look into it.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Lanefan said:


> Credit card is fine with me, but there needs to be a way of paying without involving paypal.
> 
> I'll be over in the UK in early summer; can I stop by and give you cash?
> 
> Lanefan




You're gonna drop by every month and give me $3?  Sounds fairly impractical!


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## Piratecat (Mar 29, 2010)

Rechan said:


> Can one change be the ability to adjust how many posts appear in a thread? (i.e. you can change your own settings so a thread is displayed as 20 or 30 posts before shifting over to a new page of the thread). Assuming such a feature doesn't all ready exist.
> 
> Not to be confused with how many threads show up on a page - this is how many posts in a thread.



You can already do this -- you couldn't for a while due to a bug, but that's been adjusted. Hie thee to your control panel.

Not that you shouldn't still subscribe, because subscribing is great. But adjusting this makes a huge difference to how much I enjoy reading the site.


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## Kinneus (Mar 29, 2010)

With no steady income, I really can't afford a monthly subscription, even if it's only $3. But that's fine, that's my problem, not the website's. And I wouldn't mind losing my signature; I barely use it, and it's one of those small vanity things you might expect from a subscription fee.

But one thing I don't understand and never liked about EN World was that the search feature required a subscription. It seems counter-intuitive to me; every other forum I've ever frequented made a habit of encouraging people to use the search feature, encouraging them to read old threads instead of starting a new one about the same topics every month. Giving everyone access to search means fewer new topics per day, which means less bandwith is used, which means costs go down (I think. I might be betraying my utter lack of knowledge about the internet/finances, here).

So... kill sigs. Kill avatars, images, pretty fonts. But give me search. And then I'll be a happy (albeit non-paying) customer.


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## Mistwell (Mar 29, 2010)

I am fine with charging more, but I hope there is a lot more than just "signatures" and "rep power" for an extra $36 a year.  Like, for example, a physical copy of EW publications would be good.  Or some type of exclusive content.  Or the ability to change other users avatars and titles and such.


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Kinneus said:


> One thing I don't understand and never liked about EN World was that the search feature required a subscription. It seems counter-intuitive to me; every other forum I've ever frequented made a habit of encouraging people to use the search feature, encouraging them to read old threads instead of starting a new one about the same topics every month. Giving everyone access to search means fewer new topics per day, which means less bandwith is used, which means costs go down (I think. I might be betraying my utterly lack of knowledge about the internet/finances, here).
> 
> So... kill sigs. Kill avatars, images, pretty fonts. But give me search. And then I'll be a happy (albeit non-paying) customer.




The reasoning behind that is resources.  If everyone has access to search, the server explodes and nobody gets anything.  Search, simply put, costs us large amounts of money.

It's one of those things I've always planned on changing in the long-term.  But we're not in a position to right now.  It's a goal, though.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Mar 29, 2010)

I'd rather pay for an upcoming feature that won't be available for a while than pay to keep something I already have.




_________________________________________________________________
WotBS: Adrana's Diary

"Gain does not have to derive from the loss of others."

*Proud Rouseketeers Member-Badge #33*


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> I am fine with charging more, but I hope there is a lot more than just "signatures" and "rep power" for an extra $36 a year.




We're completely open to suggestions.  We do want to make sure that subscriptions remain good value, and if you guys let us know what you want we can always consider its viability.


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## Lanefan (Mar 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> You're gonna drop by every month and give me $3?  Sounds fairly impractical!



No, but I can drop by once and give you enough to pay for a few years...

$3 is what, about UK2.00 these days?

Lanefan


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## Kinneus (Mar 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> The reasoning behind that is resources. If everyone has access to search, the server explodes and nobody gets anything. Search, simply put, costs us large amounts of money.
> 
> It's one of those things I've always planned on changing in the long-term. But we're not in a position to right now. It's a goal, though.



That's actually really great to know. Thanks.


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## Relique du Madde (Mar 29, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> I am fine with charging more, but I hope there is a lot more than just "signatures" and "rep power" for an extra $36 a year.  Like, for example, a physical copy of EW publications would be good.  Or some type of exclusive content.  Or the ability to change other users avatars and titles and such.




I agree.

Personally, it would be cool to make the subscription perks packages ala cart style (which might be harder to implement).  That way you get to choose what perks you get when you subscribe at the $3 rate and then get everything with the higher tiered accounts.


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 29, 2010)

Lanefan said:


> No, but I can drop by once and give you enough to pay for a few years...
> 
> $3 is what, about UK2.00 these days?
> 
> Lanefan




Likewise, I would imagine a 5-year subscription ($360 money order) would be as good as monthly, but what do I know?  I am sure that Morrus has reasons for the model he is choosing.

RC


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> You're gonna drop by every month and give me $3?  Sounds fairly impractical!




Are you running a game?


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

Relique du Madde said:


> I agree.
> 
> Personally, it would be cool to make the subscription perks packages ala cart style (which might be harder to implement). That way you get to choose what perks you get when you subscribe at the $3 rate and then get everything with the higher tiered accounts.




That would be idea, I agree.  It's far beyond my ability to do at present, though.  It's absolutely something I can see a couple of years down the line.


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## TerraDave (Mar 29, 2010)

First, glad to see that things are working. 

Second, $6 per month crosses that $50 per year threshold and says "expensive" (even if it really isn't). You'll have to offer some good stuff. And be careful about taking away from $3 subscribers...this is potentially dangerous (even if it shouldn't be or changes are seemingly small). 

I look forward to learning more.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Mar 29, 2010)

I have a 4 word Sig.  I'm not playing $3 a month to keep it 
In the immortal words of my sig, "Easy come, Easy go"

I do fear the future announcements of the board becoming members only...


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Mar 29, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> Likewise, I would imagine a 5-year subscription ($360 money order) would be as good as monthly, but what do I know?  I am sure that Morrus has reasons for the model he is choosing.
> 
> RC




Normally a subscription-based business _loves_ getting up front business. But if I understand Morrus correctly (and I mean no offense if I paint him wrong here), he would do what many of us would do if $360 was dumped in his lap - he'd blow it. And then when he needs money two years from now he wouldn't be able to count on your $3 (and since he let you do it, all the others that took the same option) to pull his fat from the fire. It works better for alot of people (since I see Morrus more as a guy who runs a great site than ENWorld being a business) to have the money doled out over time so they can rely on it when it's needed. Think what would happen to most people if their employer paid them three years of salary in advance....scary!


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## occam (Mar 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> ...we're looking at an additional higher tier subscription for about $6, and moving forum signatures into the subscription framework. That means that signatures will be only be available to people who have a subscription.




But won't at least some non-subscribers who want sigs just paste them into every post? If that's the case, we could end up seeing more signatures, not fewer.


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## weem (Mar 29, 2010)

Morrus said:


> We're completely open to suggestions.  We do want to make sure that subscriptions remain good value, and if you guys let us know what you want we can always consider its viability.




Just a quick idea... but what about an "Advertiser Subscription"... something that allowed you to post in the Press Release section etc (as opposed to allowing anyone to, like now). Maybe even those headlines (or excerpts) of those posts could be pulled to the news section at the index. You could limit the posts there (per account) to 1 every few days, or even a week etc (to prevent abuse).

An account like this could, perhaps, also allow you display images in the sig (whereas the $3 could prevent them etc). It could even get access to more tools/space/functionality for the account's profile page (to better promote the product/company), etc.

Anyway, like I said, just a quick idea for another option.

Otherwise, it's good to hear things have gone so well with the subscription functionality!


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## crazy_cat (Mar 29, 2010)

TerraDave said:


> Second, $6 per month crosses that $50 per year threshold and says "expensive" (even if it really isn't). You'll have to offer some good stuff. And be careful about taking away from $3 subscribers...this is potentially dangerous (even if it shouldn't be or changes are seemingly small).



This. I pay the current subscription to simply allow me to get rid of all the adverts (which IMHO made the site unusable) and to be honest don't really think about the charge. And I like having a signature  .

At $6/£4 I might actually notice the Paypal charge and have to start thinking about whether it was worthwhile or whether I should just spend more time at Paizo and other sites instead.


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## Obryn (Mar 29, 2010)

I welcome the day when there are fewer signatures. 

Seriously, though, I'm pretty happy with my $3 subscription.  (Except for when Paypal decided to stop it because I didn't have a backup source, despite my primary source having plently of cash.)  I doubt I'll upgrade - as others have mentioned, I'll actually _notice _a draw of $6/month - but I wish you luck with it!

-O


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## catsclaw227 (Mar 29, 2010)

My biggest issue with a $3/mon option and not an annual fee is that I have to track individual $3 dings to my bank account every month and not forget to put them in Quicken.

All subscription products I have were monthly, but I bought at annual rates.  I wish I could do a year of Netflix all at once so I don't have to remember that one too, but hey....


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## Thornir Alekeg (Mar 29, 2010)

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:


> I do fear the future announcements of the board becoming members only...



 I don't see that happening and, even though I am currently a subscriber, going members only would turn me off to the site because 1) I would not have the option to stop my subscription if I felt the need to and still maintain access to this community and 2) The community would lose too many valuable members and as a result would lose a lot of its vitality.  

I am happy to support the site with my $3 per month.  The extra features are a bonus that help me justify the money on those days when the bank account is looking a bit thin.  

Not sure what it would take to make me consider upgrading to the Paragon tier of $6 per month.


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 29, 2010)

How about the forum jump bar? I'm much more interested in that than the sigs.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 29, 2010)

I write this post with all due respect. I am not trying to ruffle any feathers whatsoever.

I'm all for people trying to make some money (legally), so I hope to see the website profitable for those that run it. But...(yes...a but, )

Getting a new panel dedicated for a banner ad, I can deal with.

Getting another new panel dedicated for a banner ad and cramming the forums into a smaller area, I learned to deal with it.

Being told I need to pay to not view those banner ads, I can also deal with (nothing wrong with that).

Being told I need to pay to use the search feature when that's a pretty standard feature (and encouraged to be used on other sites), I can also deal with if it really is a drain on the resources.

Now I'm being told that I basically need to pay for everything else besides writing a post?

Yes, I do have a signature that links to my own website where I "might" make a sale or two a week from it. But I have found lots of great D&D resources that I was able to use to better my own D&D game from other peoples signatures. And I provide resources in my sig that I created and put online in hopes that I could return the favor and help other people improve their D&D games.

I'm going to raise my hand and be the first person to say, "This sucks man".

I've been an active member of the site for several years, but other than the fact my wife won't let me use "our" money to pay for a subscription to a D&D website, I also have never pressed the matter with her because I don't really want to pay for a place to speak my mind when I'm told how to do it, how to interact with someone else doing it, and told when I'm done doing it. I'm all for censorship, and I can respect rules asking us not to troll/flame, or talk about politics & religion. But I can't pay for a forum where I can't talk about D&D the way I want to talk about it without the thread being locked & resulting in a warning or a ban. As Big Worm best put it, "There's principalities in this." 

Yes, I know I will be told, "you are paying for other services, not the ability to post messages." I get it. But I just can't give people money when they defiantly and proudly have told me via email that "Yes, we do regulate your posts & your free speech like a dictatorship." Censorship is one thing, but to warn me about what I said because you don't like the "way" I said it is another thing...and I won't support that by indirectly paying for it.

I'm not even complaining about how the site is run. I wouldn't continue posting if I couldn't deal with it. I'm just trying to explain why I don't have a community supporter account. And now it just feels like I'm being bullied into getting one or else I can't get a lot of great stuff from the website (or even offer great stuff) unless I pay for it. A lot of the great stuff that you are taking away from non-subscribers are what brought people to ENworld in the first place. I would not have even become a member of this site if it wasn't for the fact that I found the "Gamers Seeking Gamers" section. 

I really don't even know what my point is.  This news just comes as a disappointment to me. It's not even just that I would be losing or gaining anything (we're up to what, six banner ads per page now?), it's also knowing that once again, someone is going to try to do whatever it takes to get more money out of me.  

So ENworld will basically be a place where I can only talk about things as long as I word it in a way that the mods like, and I stop talking about it once the mods are done hearing about it? I'll get nothing else out of visiting the site unless I pay for it? This does indeed suck...


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## Morrus (Mar 29, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> How about the forum jump bar? I'm much more interested in that than the sigs.




The forum jump menu is free to everyone.


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## Primitive Screwhead (Mar 29, 2010)

For my part, I agree that a $6 a month might be a bar too high without some cool improvements/value for me. However, I really appreciate these boards and all the great folks that lurk here. I know that cool ideas, improvements, and help with rulings is only a post away.

 And the bad thing is that I can't think of anything the board doesn't already offer as a subscription option that I would like to see added... which I suppose is a good thing.

 The subcriber free material is great and the Mods are some of the best I have seen around the net.

So.. glad to hear that the subscription method is working for the boards. I guess I better go check when my multi-year subscription is going to expire and I will have to switch to the monthly payments


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## Piratecat (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> So ENworld will basically be a place where I can only talk about things as long as I word it in a way that the mods like, and I stop talking about it once the mods are done hearing about it? I'll get nothing else out of visiting the site unless I pay for it? This does indeed suck...



Hey, how do you get from "you'll need to be a member to have a sig" to "I'll get nothing else out of visiting the site unless I pay for it"? The reason for the change is that it improves the signal to noise ratio while making sure that everyone still has access to all the threads and discussions. Unless you mean the lack of advertising from your sig? I'm reading something else in your post, and I'm not sure I'm parsing it right.

EDIT: I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to be snarky, because you're certainly being sincere. I think I'm just misunderstanding.

EDIT EDIT: Obviously, the other reason for moving sigs to a subscription is that it encourages some folks to subscribe, thus helping make sure we have the money to upgrade. Rereading my post it seemed that I was ignoring that, and I didn't want that to seem the case.


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> I'd rather pay for an upcoming feature that won't be available for a while than pay to keep something I already have.



Agreed.

"Pay $3 to get something new and cool!" is a sales pitch.

"Pay $3 to prevent me from taking something away!" is not.


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## ruemere (Mar 30, 2010)

This is a vote for "wait and see" camp.

Reasons:
1. Ads. I don't filter out ads (with the exception of particularly offensive ones), so I am already in some way contributing to the well-being of the site.

2. I do not miss neither search nor signature - I come here to read news, bookmark (or save) an interesting post and, sometimes, submit a post.

3. I am very wary of subscription-type services. My experiences indicate that in the long run I am better off with a hardcover book of something I chose because of content.

Nevertheless, I think the overall changes are for the better and it is quite likely that I will change my mind. So, I will settle comfortably now and wait until 2011.

Good luck!

Regards,
Ruemere


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> But I just can't give people money when they defiantly and proudly have told me via email that "Yes, we do regulate your posts & your free speech like a dictatorship." Censorship is one thing, but to warn me about what I said because you don't like the "way" I said it is another thing...and I won't support that by indirectly paying for it.



I understand the sentiment, but to be clear the mods have every right to censor anything said here. You have no free speech rights here. ENWorld is not a government, and they don't have to let you say anything on their boards.


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## FireLance (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm currently on the old advance payment model, and my subscription is scheduled to expire in September 2012 (10th Anniversary 3-year special ). For obvious reasons, I would like to hold on to my sig.  Will there be some way for me to upgrade to the Paragon-tier subscription by paying the difference, either once-off or on a monthly basis?


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## Amaroq (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> We're completely open to suggestions.  We do want to make sure that subscriptions remain good value, and if you guys let us know what you want we can always consider its viability.



Sigs are a little thing, so I'm with the "you need big items or many items" crowd. 

Brainstorming here - please don't squash ideas too harshly! 

... I used to work for pogo.com, basically a free-games-website which discovered that the "way forward" was subscription plus plus; for us, "plus plus" meant "microtransactions". What we discovered was that people would pay amounts of money which we thought were ridiculous for things that had no inherent value, being as they were things which added value only on this one website.

Avatars was a *huge* moneymaker for us - in fact, I see it mentioned in your $3/mo trailer, but I don't see them on-forum, maybe I disabled them?

Anyway, the idea you might be missing is this: at pogo, we had a $5/mo base subscription .. but each avatar you picked up was a "microtransaction", a simple $0.75 or so one-time-fee, adding to your *collection* so you could always display one you'd paid for .. you might have different avatars showing at different times (here: in different forums?) ... but only as long as you were current on your $5/mo subscription. 

Alternately, you could keep one base set of avatars for the $3 subscriber, and introduce "premium avatars" for the platinum subscriber, something above and beyond.

Similarly, we did "badges", which were another collection you could get (or build) via cash or actions on site. Here, maybe XP would unlock badges .. but you could only display the badges if you're paid to X level?

We added additional smilies for the paid subscriber.

You might be able to do cool things for those who are "publishing" via enworld, e.g., "collections of my house rules", "here's links to my story hours", etc. That's kind of what people are using sigs for now; maybe you want to build features up around that? I mean, using piratecat as an example, as a reader I'd like to find every Story Hour he's ever written; why not have his "Subscriber's Profile" include a "Publications" link? When posting a new thread, he can hit a tick-box to "Add to My Publications"? He can always edit his My Publications page to put that link in the "right place" later.

I loved weem's idea of a "Publisher's Subscription", you might seriously be able to sell those as a nice package:
 - X number of home page "spots" per month
 - Y number of banners or skyscrapers per month
 - Ability to publish in Z forum.
 - Special indication in up to four accounts linking to your company
 - Ability to upload "company logo" avatar, usable only by those 4 accounts.
 - Image-based SIG

Trying to think what else might be good for a forum-ite, but coming up short at the moment. May need to spring for the $3 to see what you've got currently before I get further in this discussion.


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## Piratecat (Mar 30, 2010)

Brainstorming is awesome. Thank you!


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## JoeGKushner (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> The forum jump menu is free to everyone.




I hope I'm not sounding too stupid, but I've been scrolling to the top of the thread to go back to a specific forum. I no sees me a jump menu bar at the ole bottom like we used to have back in the day.


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## meomwt (Mar 30, 2010)

Will I be pissed off if my signature disappears because I can't afford to pay $3 per month? Probably. 

Will it stop me posting here? Probably not. 

But taking away something that users have *now* and are used to, rather than adding kewl new content for that $3 seems to be the wrong way to take the business model.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to be snarky, because you're certainly being sincere. I think I'm just misunderstanding.



 No problem man. You've always come across as a respectable mod without having an attitude (it's much appreciated). So I'm glad to know you recognize my post as being sincere. Sometimes it seems like no matter how hard I try, my post will be misinterpreted as if I'm trying to be a whiny jerk. 



> Hey, how do you get from "you'll need to be a member to have a sig" to "I'll get nothing else out of visiting the site unless I pay for it"?



After I wrote my post I realized that I wasn't thinking about the fact that subscribers will still be showing a sig & non-subscribers will still see their sig. So if I find something useful from a subscribers sig, that's great. Stuff like blogs, other gaming sites, other stores, or just links to resources & gamer aids are good finds. But it would still be nice to not be limited to just subscribers. I'd hate to miss out on a good link just because the guy is like me and doesn't subscribe. And on the flip side, I don't get to share my D&D resources with people. Maybe nobody ever uses them (I don't know), but it felt good to be able to throw them out there via my sig. I've had 1 user here contact me once to ask if he could link to my resources from his own website...very flattering!

Then we may lose the ability to find players for our games or find games to join? These are things that I use ENworld for. Now I'm being told they may not be available unless I pay. So for me, I'm losing a lot of what I had always got from ENworld. Being a regular on other sites would be more beneficial to me if that is the case (that is not meant to be a lame threat in any way).



> The reason for the change is that it improves the signal to noise ratio while making sure that everyone still has access to all the threads and discussions. Unless you mean the lack of advertising from your sig?



How much are sigs burning into the cost of maintaining the website? Enough to call it noise? I may be stating the obvious, but taking sigs away from non-subscribers seems like nothing more than someone who is trying to make money being upset over others also making money (off sigs). If that's the case, then that's fine...greed is nothing new to me. I've had a powerful man take an entire business from me when I was just 19; a business that made no more than $75 a week. He did that for no other reason than because he's a greedy old man and because he could. If I'm wrong about the intent of restricting sigs, then I truly apologize for the accusation.

Yes, I'm not going to deny that I don't also appreciate being able to advertise a link to my website. I was upfront about that in my original post. But don't get me wrong, I posted here for years before I started advertising anything via a sig. I credit ENworld as being a reason I started selling gaming stuff online. If it wasn't for the ENworld Marketplace forum, I never would have bought my first batch of D&D minis. And after keeping the ones that I thought would be great for my campaign and reselling the minis that I didn't want on the same forum, I wouldn't have realized that I enjoyed the experience and tried to see what could come of it if I did it again.

And honestly, I'm lucky to get 2 people using my website a week via ENworld (or 2 people from anywhere for that matter). I have a full time job that has nothing to do with gaming or my website. So it's not as if I'm counting on a link in my sig to support me financially. It's just a small perk while I'm enjoying myself on the forums.

I don't know if my ramblings have cleared any misunderstandings about my original post, but this is my attempt.


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## Jack99 (Mar 30, 2010)

$6 a month is about what I pay for my DDI subscription. You better have something better than not taking away my awesome signature if you want that kind of money from me.


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## DaveMage (Mar 30, 2010)

meomwt said:


> But taking away something that users have *now* and are used to, rather than adding kewl new content for that $3 seems to be the wrong way to take the business model.




I'm currently on the annual subscription (which ends this coming October).

I've been a community supporter for several years, and now it will cost even more to keep what I have?

Not too thrilled about it.

In fact, I'm more likely to not pay anything rather than "renew" at $3/month and get less.


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## jasonbostwick (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> I have found lots of great D&D resources that I was able to use to better my own D&D game from other peoples signatures.




I agree with this sentiment, and it makes me skeptical of plans to take away free access to signatures. 

Most signatures are just noise and I've learned to ignore them, but there are a number I've seen that contain very helpful links to posts and material that I wouldn't have found otherwise. 

Taking signatures away from non-subscribers would remove this utility from ENWorld.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

If you didn't draw me in with $3/mo, how do you think you can draw me in with $6/mo??? 

Honestly the fault of yours for not balancing the books to say, "ok this $36 is equal to $3 a month over the year" shouldn't stop you from offering the deal.

Now if you want to take the responsibility of doing the said annual thing, make it a $50 for the year thing.  $14 of it being the inconvenience for you to maintain your books.  

Losing Sigs, Avatars, having ads on the site aren't big enough issues to want to pay you for.  And if you took it further than that such as posting new thread ability, I'm betting you would see traffic come to a stand still on here except for those trying to figure out how to end their subscriptions.

Search feature, yup haven't ever had it on here.  Was annoying as heck when I first signed up.  But Search Engines (Google/Bing/etc) all easily handle it for me.  So I'm not losing anything there.

Personally I would be annoyed with $3 charge each month on my account.  And at $36 a year you aren't actually cheap for the hobby market.  Even my Jeep clubs are only $20/yr, and one of them I help run is free to the members.  Those of us on the Board of the Directors pay for it out of pocket, members only pay for swag (stickers/shirts/magnets/etc).  Even that one with 8 BoD only runs me $50 out of pocket, thou this year's swag sales have us looking at about $30 out of pocket at the current rate.
And that $20 gets me access to member's knowledge and them helping work on my vehicles along with vendor specials and offers to club members.

Now if you want ideas about how to have features for members but keep it fairly open still.

Limit Image use.  Non-paying posts can only have 3 images including Smiley's.  Vbull has this function.  I use it on other sites I help maintain.

Sigs - Restrict size and URL'ing within them.  A non-payer like me can have xx characters with no active url.  While a paying member can have a larger sig with active url's.

Ads - their an annoyance, but once you get used to them no one pays attention to them really.  Hiding them for payers is a good thing.

Search function - this is the only site I've ever been on that restricts it to paying members.  But again its a good benefit of membership to have.

Give-aways - If your going three-tier (non / pay / milked) I would restrict it to the higher tier.  The products you have listed as giveaways are a good quality if you can keep it up on a regular basis than you could find a good niche with the multi-tier.

Now if you want to have a Game/Player Finder you might want to take a page from Pen & Paper's site.  There Finder is a major draw to their site on the basis it is free.  

Another method of tiering is Normal users like myself, paying members tier, and a vendors tier.  Now vendors get ad space and what not.  Their tier is more a one on one basis weather it be with product give aways or prize contests or a straight fee.


But now I'm rambling.

Though you still haven't convinced me why I should subscribe when there are plenty of places out there they provide the same stuff for free.
You have to remember making paying memberships out of a niche market is further drawing down your market.

Now for an idea worth paying for, make your own RPGA and promote it.  That can be your $6/mo tier.  Use $2 of that extra $3 to pay for materials and events/campaigns etc.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> I understand the sentiment, but to be clear the mods have every right to censor anything said here. You have no free speech rights here. ENWorld is not a government, and they don't have to let you say anything on their boards.




I understand that. And as annoying as it can be for such a cool, down-to-earth, great personality, well fed, handsome, intelligent, and nice smelling guy as myself, I can deal with it. I can respect it, but I won't pay for & support it is all I'm saying.


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## Scotley (Mar 30, 2010)

My 2 coppers worth, first I am glad to hear that the site is doing well financially. I happily pay my $3 a month. I come here mostly to game. Based on the number of users active in the different forums at any given time it seems most people here don't run or play games. At least the number of folks on the 'playing the game' is very low relative to the discussion threads. For example there are 50 people viewing 'playing the game right now' and more than 300 in the general discussion. Nearly a hundred are discussing 4e as I post this. 

I'd pay a little more for features that significantly enhance the gaming experience. Especially a quick user friendly way to post combat maps and a reliable, track-able dice roller. A nice tool for keeping up with mini-stat blocks that had conditions might be useful too. Unfortunately, these things would only be useful if everyone had access. Perhaps a DM's subscription that allowed one to invite players to use those features for his or her games? Maybe these things are too complicated to implement, but they would certainly garner my $$. My busy schedule fits play by post well, but some might pay for enhanced features for chat type games. 

I use my signature to keep a link to a post with all my games in it. I would hate to lose that. Maybe you could charge extra for sigs with images and such that eat up bandwidth? I might pay more for a tool that allows me better access to character sheets. Instead of having them scattered across rogue's galley threads, being able to link to all one's characters and the characters in games I run in a simple way would be nice. 

The other thing I'd spring for is reliability. Maybe paragon tier subscribers could still get access even when the site was down for everyone else? Obviously this would require some sort of back up server. Users have been very generous in the past when the site has needed an influx of cash due to hardware and bandwidth issues. Maybe you could have a special patron account where the extra couple of bucks would be set aside only for hardware, software and tech support? They should get some spiffy recognition for their generosity. 

Anyway, the ads don't much bother me. I have fast access and a nice big monitor, so I don't turn off the ads and I even click some of them. It would be nice to tone down the cleavage laden ads that draw derisive remarks from my wife. 

Keep up the good work! I look forward to seeing what you come up with.


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## Henry (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> Honestly the fault of yours for not balancing the books to say, "ok this $36 is equal to $3 a month over the year" shouldn't stop you from offering the deal.




Having been on the inside for a while, I can tell you it wasn't so much an inability to balance books, as a maddening tendency for people to let subscriptions lapse when they were due to be re-upped. For some reason, it's human nature to take that "big" $36.00 dollar charge off before it's due and you can't afford it, versus leaving that measly $3 charge on your credit card month after month. People will bleed money more readily than they will lose the same amount in one "hit". It's not Russ' fault, it's the psychology of the average consumer. 

Besides, If I really want to keep a lump sum each year instead of a subscription, I could easily just buy a pre-paid credit card from my local department store, Target, or Wal-mart, and charge it to that. Not a big deal.

But I am looking forward to seeing what transpires - I'm just glad to hear that the subscription model was such a great success!


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## Mistwell (Mar 30, 2010)

I can see charging for full graphic ad banners in people's sig lines.  But text and hyperlinks? I doubt people would pay for that, and I think it would hurt the quality of the board to charge for them as others have pointed out.

Maybe swag? Send people an EnWorld mouse pad, mug, cap, T-shirt, dice bag, dice, something like that?

Or, like I said, hard copies of EW publications, like WotBS.


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## Hereticus (Mar 30, 2010)

The way this works, you use the PayPal ritual and for $6.00 you magically get a month's subscription.

Should you change your mind and want your money back, use the Reverse PayPal ritual and you get a $1.20 refund.


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## Nifft (Mar 30, 2010)

Suggestions for sigs:

*Free*:
- One line, 100 characters, small text ("size=0" wrapped around it), no formatting except URL links.

*Community Supporter* ($3):
- Three lines, 100 characters each, small or regular text, URLS + bold, italic, underline.

*Fancy Sig Tier* ($6):
- Six lines, otherwise as above + some colors.

*Banner Advertiser Tier* ($10):
- All that plus image links work.

- - -

Other than that, all I can say is: *keep your focus on your core competency*, which is the forums.

WotC used to have half-decent forums, until one day someone said "Hey, let's leverage this asset into a new paradigm of growth synergy!" and then promptly tried to create a social networking site. Now I don't go to their forums any more: they killed a half-decent forum and replaced it with an inferior Facebook.

Growth is a neat thing, but the gaming community is a certain size. Know what kind of numbers are achievable.

Cheers, -- N


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Mar 30, 2010)

Lanefan said:


> Credit card is fine with me, but there needs to be a way of paying without involving paypal.



I was going to request the same thing.


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## Piratecat (Mar 30, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Other than that, all I can say is: *keep your focus on your core competency*, which is the forums.



I'd say "Kiss me, you fool," but you know -- decorum.

Instead I'll say "Morrus is on it." The only reason to focus on the site is to make it better, and we love the forums as well. It'll take some baby steps, but we're getting there.


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## roguerouge (Mar 30, 2010)

I don't like removing sigs.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Suggestions for sigs:
> 
> *Free*:
> - One line, 100 characters, small text ("size=0" wrapped around it), no formatting except URL links.
> ...



The thing I find funny with this idea is that the more you pay, the more annoying you get to be


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## jdrakeh (Mar 30, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> I can see charging for full graphic ad banners in people's sig lines.  But text and hyperlinks? I doubt people would pay for that, and I think it would hurt the quality of the board to charge for them as others have pointed out.




Truth. Hyperlinks and text are basic, free, options for signatures at every other VBulletin forum out there. I wouldn't try to charge for those things. Images, though, are expressly forbidden in sig lines at a great many VBulletin sites. I think you could get away with charging for that content in sig lines and not ruffle too many feathers.


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## Nifft (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> The thing I find funny with this idea is that the more you pay, the more annoying you get to be



 This is actually true in real life, too.

If you're rich enough, you can get away with mur-- er, *adventuring*.

Cheers, -- N


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## jdrakeh (Mar 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Agreed.
> 
> "Pay $3 to get something new and cool!" is a sales pitch.
> 
> "Pay $3 to prevent me from taking something away!" is not.




Also this. Threatening current users with a loss of functionality unless they pay for a subscription sounds a bit like extortion.  I understand that it's easier than coming up with new content or functionality, but I'm also sure that it won't sit well with a lot of posters.


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## Nifft (Mar 30, 2010)

jdrakeh said:


> Hyperlinks and text are basic, free, options for signatures at every other VBulletin forum out there. I wouldn't try to charge for those things.



 Yep. Links (primarily to other threads, but also to products) are the most valuable sig content IMHO. Basically, if someone says something insightful, I'm very tempted to go check out other things he's done -- and links in his sig are the easiest way to do that.

Cheers, -- N


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## Olaf the Stout (Mar 30, 2010)

I don't like the idea of getting rid of sigs for non-subscibers.  I think this would make the site less useful for subscribers since many non-subscibers often have useful links in their sigs.  Personally my sig doesn't really add much at all, so I don't care whether I have it or not.

Olaf the Stout


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## Hereticus (Mar 30, 2010)

I need to find a way to charge $6 per month for advertising in my signature line.


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## Cassander (Mar 30, 2010)

Is there some value added in ENWorld having paid columnists? I've seen a mention or two of them, but I've never even seen a link to them on the site. Does anyone read them? Do they really add value to the core mission of the site? Do people need to be paid to share their thoughts?

And why make people pay for message boards features and use that money to pay columnists, instead of just putting the columnists behind the paywall?

Also, shouldn't ENWorld products be raising money for the site rather than the site raising money for products?

Just realized I've been coming to this site for over 10 years now... I feel old.


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## I'm A Banana (Mar 30, 2010)

It is about friggin' time I got a CS account anyway.

And if you need someone to write you some material, I may know a pretty good freelancer...


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## Vartan (Mar 30, 2010)

I think this is a great idea. I was out of work for a year and am just now getting back on my feet, so I'm not yet a subscriber, but I get a lot of value from this website without paying for a subscription or enduring pop-up ads. Making sigs "members only" sounds like a good way to increase subscription numbers and fund future improvements. 

I'm glad to hear that the site is doing well and that you're thinking of ways to improve it.


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## Perram (Mar 30, 2010)

I have some real mixed feelings about this announcement.

When you came forward last time and let us know that ENWorld was in trouble, we answered.  We subscribed at $3.  Companies donated product for your subscription plan to support it.

I didn't start giving you $3 a month to use a search feature (Google does better) or get access to your content. (I hardly even looked at any of it, no disrespect to the people that donated content, I just need more time in the day.)

I even left my ads on.  I imagine I'm not alone there.  (But blast, those Evony ads get on my nerves...)

_This...

This..._

*This is different*.  And it kind of sours my feelings about subscribing to begin with.  If it was a mistake in perception on my part, I apologize, but marketing is all about perception.

Removing the signatures is a bad idea.  I don't think you are going to get a return on investment you are looking for, and you might have the opposite effect:

*People canceling their subscriptions.*

I don't know if I will or wont, but this plan of action isn't the style of the grand gaming cause I rallied behind last time.

Edit: To sum things up - This doesn't feel like supporting the community.  It feels dishonest.


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

jdrakeh said:


> Also this. Threatening current users with a loss of functionality unless they pay for a subscription sounds a bit like extortion.  I understand that it's easier than coming up with new content or functionality, but I'm also sure that it won't sit well with a lot of posters.



The word came to mind, but I decided against using it since we're talking about a message board and $3. Maybe it's a new form of micro-transaction?


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## Mr. Wilson (Mar 30, 2010)

My mother always told me that if I had nothing good to say to someone, I should keep my mouth shut.

I'll have to defer to her wisdom in this case.


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## On Puget Sound (Mar 30, 2010)

I subscribed, but have not used any of the subscriber benefits (well, I did search for something once); I did it for the same reason I'm a public radio member... I'll pay to keep available a service I value and use.

That said, I find sigs to be very useful in playing any of the online D&D games here; I can instantly click to my own character sheet or any teammate's.  Who's got a high Diplomacy score to talk us out of this situation?  Click.  I'd hate to lose that easy functionality, but frankly increasing the cost from $3 to $6 actually does cross a line into "something I'd notice", and I would not do it just to keep the sigs.

I concur with those who say if you want to offer a higher value subscription, you should find something new to offer rather than take away something.  And unfortunately, I don't have any really good ideas on what that something might be.  Character portraits?  Mapping and gaming tools?  An online dice roller that never rolls 1s?


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## Dire Bare (Mar 30, 2010)

Jack99 said:


> $6 a month is about what I pay for my DDI subscription. You better have something better than not taking away my awesome signature if you want that kind of money from me.




I agree that the more perks the "Heroic" and "Paragon" level subscriptions offer the better, both for subscribers and the site, but I don't expect DDI level of content.  I don't think it's feasible.

I am not currently a subscriber due to financial reasons, but I would love to subscribe under the current system at $3 per month, and I really wouldn't use most of my membership perks.  If I can afford it at some point, I'll also happily subscribe at $6 per month and again probably not use most of the perks.  I understand and completely support that not everybody would be willing to support the site NPR-style, but I do imagine that's a large part of the draw.

I see a lot of folks getting all irate at the idea of a more expensive premium subscription, but please remember that it will be optional and that regular subscriptions and free access aren't going away.  This will just be for folks who want to support the site even more.  

Heck Morrus, I'd over a variety of increasingly expensive subscription offers that don't necessarily come with more perks.  Not everybody would go for it, but some would!


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## Dire Bare (Mar 30, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> Or, like I said, hard copies of EW publications, like WotBS.




Print copies of ENWorld publications would truly be an awesome perk for those who want it . . . but wouldn't that also dramatically increase costs?  I honestly don't know . . .


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## Dire Bare (Mar 30, 2010)

A brainstorm from me . . .

How about corporate sponsorships?  For a certain amount per month, companies like Paizo or WotC or whoever could be corporate sponsors of the site.  A poster above mentioned including ad deals in a similar idea . . . but I think my idea is slightly different.

Perhaps the official reps and employees from corporate sponsorships could get special avatars identifying them as such?  With some sort of banner ad in the sig?  There might also be a list of corporate sponsors on the front page or in a side bar that can't get "turned off" by users.  You could also have varying levels of corporate support.  I see non-profits and charities do this sort of thing all the time!


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## jdrakeh (Mar 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> The word came to mind, but I decided against using it since we're talking about a message board and $3. Maybe it's a new form of micro-transaction?




Well, in this case, management is effectively threatening to take something away from people unless they pay more money. While I agree that "extortion" is a nasty word, if the shoe fits. . .


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## Mewness (Mar 30, 2010)

I'm pretty much echoing things said by Nifft and On Puget Sound. I use this site mostly to play in Living 4e, and I like placing my own character links in my sig so that people know who they're talking to when I'm speaking in character. (The Onion quote I can cheerfully dispense with.) It would be nice if nonpaying users got a little bit of signature space for that sort of thing.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 30, 2010)

Instead of simply being negative, I suppose I should try to offer some solutions that can be used in lieu of taking options away from posters unless they pay to keep them. The first thing I'd look at is adding new content. . . 

Like a chat room. I know it can be done, because Circvs Maximvs has one. Adding a chat client to ENWorld and making it available to subscribers might be a good place to start. 

Another thing to look at are VBulletin plug-ins like new forum skins. They're a low cost acquisition that can be bundled as part of a subscriber pack. I imagine that a mobile skin would be quite popular, for example. 

A dice roller app. I know it doesn't sound like much, but people run a _lot_ of PbP games here. Giving them access to an onsite tool that assists them in doing that is probably worth an extra $3 per month. 

I'm sure I can think of a few more suggestions.


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## Dire Bare (Mar 30, 2010)

jdrakeh said:


> Well, in this case, management is effectively threatening to take something away from people unless they pay more money. While I agree that "extortion" is a nasty word, if the shoe fits. . .




No, the shoe doesn't fit.  Not at all.

At first, I thought the idea of losing my sig unless I became a subscriber wasn't a big deal.  After reading more posts, I was surprised at the utility that some have found with this feature, and I completely understand those who feel that making it a subscriber only benefit would upset them.  In fact, I now feel that leaving at least basic sig functionality for non-subscribers is a good idea.

But the charged language some are using in this thread already is too much.  Extortion?  You're seriously saying that Morrus is considering extorting folks who use the site?  When folks use negative hyperbole such as that, those of us who are rational will often just ignore you.  At least I hope that Morrus ignores anyone who starts throwing the nasty language his way that some often throw at WotC.

Morrus wants our feedback, negative or positive.  But please respect this site, Morrus, and the moderators who make ENWorld such a great place to hang out and cut out the unnecessary negative hyperbole.


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## Theo R Cwithin (Mar 30, 2010)

I like seeing most sigs, especially ones with links.  It's a nice quick way to learn about the poster.  I'd hate to see them go, though scaling back non-subscriber sigs (limited characters, only default font/color only, no formatting, no images, etc) wouldn't bother me at all.  But, fwiw, that wouldn't make me leave.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 30, 2010)

I enjoy sigs myself, and would prefer that they remain free.  However, I understand economic realities, and would harbor no ill-will towards having them be a privilege of subscribers only.

HOWEVER...I would most respectfully suggest that the transition would be better received if those of us who have them do not have them eliminated if we do not subscribe.  Instead, simply make them* invisible* until the sig's owner pays the subscription fee.

I ask that because many people include links in their sigs, and if they get erased, they may have trouble re-establishing them.  For example, my sig consists almost entirely of 3.5 database threads that have long since sunk into the muck by dint of their not receiving regular new posts.  But I don't think I'm out of line in suggesting that at least some people find them useful.  If they simply disappear, I might have trouble re-establishing them if/once I subscribe or re-subscribe.

And with a monthly subscription model, the risk of unsubscribing rises significantly.


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## Wayside (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Because it is disastrous for my cash flow. I need regular, predictable amounts coming in monthly, not chunks at random times every year or three years. I need to be abel to look at the accounts and predict with a high degree of accuracy what money is coming in next month, and the month after that, and in 8 months' time.  Switching to a monthy subscription only was quite possibly the best decision I ever made regarding this website - it turned around the finances in an alomst miraculous way, and is the reason we're still here.



In addition to a percentage, PayPal charges, what, $.30 per transaction? So when someone pays $3 per month rather than $36 for the year, you're losing out on an extra $3.30. With just 1000 subscribers, that's a loss of $3300 a year.

Monthly is a great option for the additional subscribers it no doubt brings in, but the extra money you'd be making from people who'd rather pay upfront seems like a pretty powerful incentive to sharpen your bookkeeping skills.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 30, 2010)

I know I'm not a subscriber and never have been, but I know *me* and my spending habits.

A monthly subscription model would find my status bouncing from subscriber to non-subscriber several times a year.  When I subscribe to something, I do so for years at a time so I don't have to worry about paying another monthly bill.

Heck, on my previous car, I was actually ahead on my payments.


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## jdrakeh (Mar 30, 2010)

Dire Bare said:


> Extortion?  You're seriously saying that Morrus is considering extorting folks who use the site? When folks use negative hyperbole such as that. . .




Well, he's proposing to take away something from individuals that they currently possess unless they pay him more money to keep it. That _does_ fall under the definition of the word "extortion" in several dictionaries. It's _not_ hyperbole, it's the English language. I'm just calling a spade a spade. 



> Morrus wants our feedback, negative or positive. But please respect this site, Morrus, and the moderators who make ENWorld such a great place to hang out and cut out the unnecessary negative hyperbole.




I haven't said anything to disrespect the site _or_ the moderators. While my characterizing the decision to withdraw services from users unless they pay additional dollars to keep them as extortion _could_ be seen as an attempt to 'disrespect' Morrus, I think that anybody who is familiar with my posting history here and who knows what the word "extortion" actually means will understand that this isn't the case. 

Also, because you apparently overlooked it, I offer some alternatives to stripping away existent services here. It's not as though I'm simply criticizing without also offering some positive feedback. Sheesh. 

Finally, because it apparently needs saying, this isn't a schoolyard. Making accusations of 'disrespecting' people and demanding that I stop doing so sounds absolutely ridiculous. If you don't agree with what I have to say, fine, but pack up your Internet tough man act. It's not impressing anybody.


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## MacMathan (Mar 30, 2010)

I am currently a month subscriber. I like to be able to see peoples sigs so personally I would like them to remain for all.

As far as new stuff a mobile friendly version of the site would rock my socks.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Suggestions for sigs:
> 
> *Free*:
> - One line, 100 characters, small text ("size=0" wrapped around it), no formatting except URL links.
> ...




Now that _might_ be doable.  If the software supports it.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Cassander said:


> Is there some value added in ENWorld having paid columnists? I've seen a mention or two of them, but I've never even seen a link to them on the site.




Plastered all over the front page.



> Does anyone read them?




Thousands do, yes.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

JoeGKushner said:


> I hope I'm not sounding too stupid, but I've been scrolling to the top of the thread to go back to a specific forum. I no sees me a jump menu bar at the ole bottom like we used to have back in the day.




It's in the navbar these days.  Second item along, after "My Account".


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> Then we may lose the ability to find players for our games or find games to join? These are things that I use ENworld for. Now I'm being told they may not be available unless I pay. So for me, I'm losing a lot of what I had always got from ENworld.




Well, the idea is that we provide a much better functionality for finding games and gamers.  In fact what we have planned (which will be free) is going to be pretty darn spiffy!  Maps, events, etc.  Youll be able to find everyone within X miles of you in a matter of seconds.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

One thing folks seem to be doing is concentrating soley on the "losing sigs" part of the plan.

Ignoring subscriptions for the moment - assuming you're not a subscriber, and don't intend to be - you'd be losing sigs, but getting a crapload of really awesome stuff for free in return. The Gamers Seeking Gamers functionality on its own is going to be absolutely fantastic; and that's going to be available to everyone. 

Now, I can understand people saying "I value the sigs more than the new stuff", or "Not having seen the new stuff yet, I can't place a value on it". That's a determination that everyone has to make for themselves; I'm sure there are people who value sigs over the new stuff that's coming. I also believe that many will find the new stuff incredibly cool.

Depending on how much you value each thing, this is a net loss, a break-even, or a net gain. I personally believe that it will be a net gain - and not a small one, at that. Just wait till you see some of the stuff coming (there are coders writing the code as we speak!)

One piece of feedback I've received thousands of times over the years is that folks want (a) a great system for finding new gamers based on location and other criteria, populated by a large number of said gamers; and (b) online gaming tools. We intend to give you both of those things for free - essentially at the price of s signature. These things may or may not be worth a sig to you; everyone will vary on that. I honestly believe that these things will add massive value to the site, and are intrinsically linked to the sitre's core functionality.  They're things we really *should* have been doing years ago - but better late than never!


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## grodog (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Ignoring subscriptions for the moment - assuming you're not a subscriber, and don't intend to be - you'd be losing sigs, but getting a crapload of really awesome stuff for free in return. The Gamers Seeking Gamers functionality on its own is going to be absolutely fantastic; and that's going to be available to everyone.




I think it's worth you spending some time to describe all of this in more detail, Morrus:  I understand that you have some additional functionality planned, but it sounds like you're revealing bits and pieces of it and that we're not really seeing the big picture.  Without that big picture, I think it's easy for us to get mired in some of the details you have mentioned, and (perhaps) to blow them out of proportion WRT possible plans that you're considering.  

So, lay out the reality for what's coming (short- and long-term vision or even a multi-year growth plan, along with implementation timelines for features/capabilities, and costs of all of the above, your current costs models for the servers, bandwidth, coding, etc., etc.).  Whatever you're able to share (and I don't imagine that you'll want to reveal all of the details, if only for the sheer amount of time it might take to put it all together right), that will help us to connect the dots between what features are coming, what features are here now, and what features may or may not be there in the future.  



Morrus said:


> They're things we really *should* have been doing years ago - but better late than never!




Out of curiosity, are they things that the readership still wants/needs today vs. several years ago?  I can find gamers through any number of free available services today like meetup.com or Facebook or whatever, and if I wanted to play online games, I could do so through DDI (or whatever WotC has) as well as a number of other engines.  Are these features ENWorld's core functionality (or, if not today, tomorrow's)?



Morrus said:


> These things may or may not be worth a sig to you; everyone will vary on that. I honestly believe that these things will add massive value to the site, and are intrinsically linked to the sitre's core functionality.




I come to ENWorld to be a member of the community, which is where I see the core functionality of the site.  On the negative side of my site usage, I haven't read the front page in several years since I stopped playing 3.5 ~5-ish years ago; I don't buy/play/read the ENWorld modules/publications; I almost never click an ad unless its accidental; I miss the tag cloud functionality; and I don't read the columns unless someone links to one in GD.  On the positive side, I love the old-school and other non-systems based discussions here; I continue to read Sep's Story Hour and poke around in the SH forums from time to time (and I may get around to reading Kevin's at some point...); I think the ENNies are great; I value the community specifically because many folks here aren't part of my standard old-school boards-and-blogs communities; and I've happily met several ENWorlders in RL while travelling around the country for work or at conventions (including Mark and  diaglo most recently at GaryCon, and perhaps some others I'm too addled to recall offhand).  

To boil this down a bit, I think that you're risking some folks' valuation of the ENWorld community as a whole with how some of your proposed changes are being perceived.  That's a pretty big deal to me, and taking that risk may still be worth doing in the end from your POV, but I'd hope that you'd take the feedback and input offered to date and give some serious thought to how you're funding the site's growth toward your vision:  it would suck to see ENWorld die just as you're finally in a position to make it take off in the way that you've wanted to since day 1.  (And, to be clear, I think that your request for input and such have been really-well-handled herein, and that you're clearly not simply rushing into Plan X without thinking ahead, getting feedback, etc.  So, thank you for that, too!  ).  

(And, for the record:  I've been a CM and ENWorld supporter in the past, although I'm not now and probably haven't been in the past year or three, and I don't think it was for more than a year or two).


----------



## Jack99 (Mar 30, 2010)

Dire Bare said:


> I agree that the more perks the "Heroic" and "Paragon" level subscriptions offer the better, both for subscribers and the site, but I don't expect DDI level of content.  I don't think it's feasible.




I do not expect it either. But the comparison will invariably be in the minds of some.


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## wedgeski (Mar 30, 2010)

Hmm.

In all honesty, if you'd never started giving away WotBS or the other freebies that subscribers now get, and then said, "I'm going to up the sub to $6 but now you WotBS and all these other freebies!", I don't think anyone would bat an eyelid. The value-add for being a premium subscriber would be obvious.

For me, GSG, custom avatars, and so-on aren't tangible enough to justify an increased subscription. But, if there are more adventures on the way for example, I'd like my premium subscription to get me access to early play-tests, artwork previews, and favoured pricing for the final product.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

wedgeski said:


> But, if there are more adventures on the way for example, I'd like my premium subscription to get me access to early play-tests, artwork previews, and favoured pricing for the final product.




The next adventure path is a way off yet, but it's highly likely that the Paragon subscribers will appreciate benefts there. Probably not art previews (since they're essentially advertising - we want everyone to see them!) As for favoured pricing - it'll come *with* the subscription.

I'm playing with ideas, including having the other AP in the Paragon subscription only, or with a 6-month lead. But I haven't settled on that yet.

I'm also talking to some folks about developing various tools - obviously the DDI Character Bulder is the killer app, but we can do other things, especially non-system specific things.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> The next adventure path is a way off yet, but it's highly likely that the Paragon subscribers will appreciate benefts there. Probably not art previews (since they're essentially advertising - we want everyone to see them!) As for favoured pricing - it'll come *with* the subscription.
> 
> I'm playing with ideas, including having the other AP in the Paragon subscription only, or with a 6-month lead. But I haven't settled on that yet.
> 
> I'm also talking to some folks about developing various tools - obviously the DDI Character Bulder is the killer app, but we can do other things, especially non-system specific things.



Maybe a kind of "patronage" project á la Open Design for Paragon Subscribers? Essentially, the ability to see the design process and give input and feedback?


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Maybe a kind of "patronage" project á la Open Design for Paragon Subscribers? Essentially, the ability to see the design process and give input and feedback?




Maybe to a very limited extent.  I tend to feel that design by committee usually fails when compared to design by a visionary (if that's the right word - sounds too pompous; I mean someone who has a clear view of what he/she wants to do and is allowed the freedom to do exactly that).


----------



## Jhaelen (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Well, as I mentioned the boards are now self-sustaining, and I now need to facilitate growth - not in terms of size, but in quality.



Why do you need to do this?
Have you been receiving an increasing amount of requests to improve quality?
To be honest this doesn't sound like anything that was triggered by the community.


Morrus said:


> I'm also talking to some folks about developing various tools - obviously the DDI Character Bulder is the killer app, but we can do other things, especially non-system specific things.



Imho, you're putting the cart before the horse.
If you want more money from me for something, I'd like to know quite well what you plan to do with it, so I can find out if I would be interested or not.

The thing is: ENWorld as it currently is provides everything I want from ENWorld. Or at least I cannot thing of anything that might be useful to me. 

To elaborate and comment on one of your examples: I'm from Germany, so I don't have a use for a feature that shows me 'other players within x miles'. We don't even have 'miles' over here


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> The thing is: ENWorld as it currently is provides everything I want from ENWorld. Or at least I cannot thing of anything that might be useful to me.




Then this thread doesn't really apply to you. I'm glad you have everything you want form EN World, and I hope you continue to enjoy it. Not everything available for sale appeals to everyone. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting to buy something.



> Why do you need to do this?
> Have you been receiving an increasing amount of requests to improve quality?
> To be honest this doesn't sound like anything that was triggered by the community.




Yes. Not a day goes by when I don't get emails about the current Gamers Seeking Gamers functionality. In fact, it's the one thing I receive by far the most emails about (along with the emails which ask me me actually _tell_ people who's in their area, which I find mildly bizarre!)


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Now that _might_ be doable.  If the software supports it.



Sig Sizes - Morrus it is doable with Vbull, I know several sites set up that way.


Yes the comparrisson to extortion will be there.  After all you deal with the wave of 'NerdRage' with us. 
You won't please everyone, don't try, you'll fail miserably if you do.

Set our plan and stick with it.
While I might complain / *itch about it, I would rather see the site succeed than fail.  The site itself has value to me even though its not a value that I consider paying for.

One thing I take from this in suggestions:
Restricted Sigs - Agreeable
No Sigs - Not agreeable

Another idea to use:
Control Panel functions.
Think about it, everyone here loves being able to increase posts per page, etc.
This makes for a nice perk to offer to subscribers.  Think about it, it takes nothing essentially away from the functionality of the site, but increases usability for those of us with higher speed internet service.
There are lots of little things you can do such as that before you effect serviciblity of the site to 'freeloaders' like myself.


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## jbear (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> The next adventure path is a way off yet, but it's highly likely that the Paragon subscribers will appreciate benefts there. Probably not art previews (since they're essentially advertising - we want everyone to see them!) As for favoured pricing - it'll come *with* the subscription.
> 
> I'm playing with ideas, including having the other AP in the Paragon subscription only, or with a 6-month lead. But I haven't settled on that yet.
> 
> I'm also talking to some folks about developing various tools - obviously the DDI Character Bulder is the killer app, but we can do other things, especially non-system specific things.



And what about subscriptions by way of barter?

A year ago or so I offered to do the new 'link icons' for the page in exchange for a subscription, but arrived late. I offer my art again in exchange for a subscription. If you are going to produce another adventure path or need more art for the future episodes of WotBS, I would be a valuable person to have as a community supporter, and considering the cost of a single DECENT sketch, not to mention a full colour page, far more valuable than $3 a month...

What say ye?


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Another idea to use:
> Control Panel functions.
> Think about it, everyone here loves being able to increase posts per page, etc.
> This makes for a nice perk to offer to subscribers. Think about it, it takes nothing essentially away from the functionality of the site, but increases usability for those of us with higher speed internet service.
> There are lots of little things you can do such as that before you effect serviciblity of the site to 'freeloaders' like myself.




Posts per page is a global setting only, unfortunately.  There's no way to assign permissions to change it to certain usergroups.

Just glancing through the control panel, the only other obvious thing currrently set to "off" is Animated Avatars.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

jbear said:


> And what about subscriptions by way of barter?
> 
> A year ago or so I offered to do the new 'link icons' for the page in exchange for a subscription, but arrived late. I offer my art again in exchange for a subscription. If you are going to produce another adventure path or need more art for the future episodes of WotBS, I would be a valuable person to have as a community supporter, and considering the cost of a single DECENT sketch, not to mention a full colour page, far more valuable than $3 a month...
> 
> What say ye?




Absolutely!  We've traditionally always tried to thank those who help out with CSA accounts.   It's a system I'm very much in favour of (and it helps those who are unable to purchase subscriptions).

The problem is the amounts of money we're talking is so low - a subscription isn't really worth much - that it feels almost insulting to offer one in exchange for more than an hour or two's work.  So as a formal "payment" system, I don't think it's appropriate; but as a "thank you for helping out" goodwill gesture, it's the least I can do.


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## Rechan (Mar 30, 2010)

Suggestion:

1) Increase the inbox pm load for subscribes. Having a 20 message max is annoying (especially when things you send add against your load). Hell, one of the moderators here has a full inbox so I can't even pmail him about a mod action.

2) As far as the next AP and the paragon model, why not give Paragons a bit of say in the AP? Not a _lot_ of power, but voting or power of direction to guide the AP's development. A very (very) watered down version of Wolfgang Barr's Patronage model of adventure writing.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Rechan said:


> 1) Increase the inbox pm load for subscribes.




The $3 subscription already does that.


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## ReeboKesh (Mar 30, 2010)

Pure curiousity here. Why do so many people refuse to use Paypal? I've used it for years and have never had any issues. Is there something I'm missing? I don't think you even need a credit card anymore just a bank account to link to it.

BTW I think the search feature should remain a subscription only service, as Morrus said if everyone could search the server would go boom! Maybe one day that can be fixed, but until then...
Reebo


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## Primitive Screwhead (Mar 30, 2010)

From a thought back on page 3 or 4..

 An idea for the $6 subscription would be PBEM online tools such as dice-rollers, map sharing, chat services... some of that would be added server material but I think a dice roller {that emails/PMs/ or posts} the results could be cool...

 If added into the normal posting function for the PBEM forum you could have something like :

Fred dashes forward and leaps over the table [Skill Roll + 7]

come out as

Fred dashes forward and leaps over the table {16: Skill Roll + 7}

?


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## Dice4Hire (Mar 30, 2010)

I have not subscribed due to credit card issues, but I can see the value of a second tier of payments, and believe most of the free stuff should start off at the top tier and work its way down to the lower tier. I know some people signed up just to download and unsubscribe, but apparently enough people did it honestly so it did not matter much.

As for signatures, it seems to me to be a fine thing to move to a higher tier. Of course, I have had hem turned off since I got here....

But I am all for anything that costs extra money to be in a higher tier. Those of us who just post and read, do not deserve more than to be able to do that. I am satisfied with jsut posting and reading.


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> One thing folks seem to be doing is concentrating soley on the "losing sigs" part of the plan.



I suspect that's because most people think of ENWorld as primarily a forum, with other features as well. So you're taking away something related to your "core competency", if you will. Something that most people expect to be able to have on a forum without paying for it. The other RPG forums I frequent allow sigs, and are free of charge. That, combined with the fact that we've had them for free up until now, is leading to the push-back.

Now, restricted sigs are another thing entirely, and would be acceptable to most people I think.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

Wasting my day at work coming up with solutions for ya.

I thought there was a Vbul code to alter the Control Panel to make certain options fixed via a Usergroup.  Could have sworn it was on one of the other sites I'm on.  I'll look into the other sites I'm on and let ya know if I see it.

Far as PM's.  Personally, in my experience there have been two methods to this.  One increase in size for payers, or have it turned off for freeloaders.  But still allow the 'Email User' function.

Avatars - another Vbull site only allows avatars for paying members.  You say the option for anitmated Avatars is turned off, but isn't there a sizing/file option you can split for Usergroups?  I've seen it done on others, where only paying members could have the anitmated avatar.

Adspace - Paying vendors expect ad space to all your membership.  Remember that's the lure for bringing them to spend money on your site in the first place.  "Yo, Yeti Inc, we have 1,000 paying members.  Would you like some ad space?"  If you turn my ad off for those 1,000 members what am I paying for?
Bearing that in mind, this is where you can leverage your 'Paragon Tier'.  Allow it the full no ad experience.  Than you can go we have 3,000 Forum Members with 1,000 of them subscribers with about 100 in our Paragon level.  The vendor will see a possible 3,000 customers out of it.
Offering Vendors their own forum to answer questions on their wares or fulfill requests can be helpful as well.
On one of my Jeep Forums, Vendors pay $100/yr.  They have their own section of forums where they can conduct business like a store front.
I.e. Billy Bob asks Yeti Inc if they can make him a bumper to these specs.  They answer Billy Bob and generally use the PM's to negoiate the custom bumper price.  Or they answer in thread saying yes we have 3 in stock for this price, yada yada yada.

Dice Roller - very nice to have and could be worth it for some subscribers.  But than again, Invisible Castle offers the same thing for free with code to put on the message board to show your rolls.


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## TerraDave (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It's in the navbar these days.  Second item along, after "My Account".




Maybe subscribers get an instructional video explaining the features of the site.

Just found it. Its a great feature.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Adspace - Paying vendors expect ad space to all your membership. Remember that's the lure for bringing them to spend money on your site in the first place. "Yo, Yeti Inc, we have 1,000 paying members. Would you like some ad space?" If you turn my ad off for those 1,000 members what am I paying for?




That'll be the other 249,000 people who visit each month!


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## Raven Crowking (Mar 30, 2010)

ReeboKesh said:


> Pure curiousity here. Why do so many people refuse to use Paypal? I've used it for years and have never had any issues. Is there something I'm missing? I don't think you even need a credit card anymore just a bank account to link to it.





In my case, I tried to subscribe, but PayPal refused to make a monthly subscription without credit card information.


RC


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## Obryn (Mar 30, 2010)

If you're looking for feedback, I think the idea of restricting signature length on non-subscribers rather than removing them entirely is a great idea.  And I really, really hate most signatures, so take that for what it's worth.

If you're not, then carry on!

-O


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Maybe to a very limited extent.  I tend to feel that design by committee usually fails when compared to design by a visionary (if that's the right word - sounds too pompous; I mean someone who has a clear view of what he/she wants to do and is allowed the freedom to do exactly that).



I did  participate in only one Open Design project so far, and I must admit I didn't participate much. I kinda forgot about it.  But it seemed it had a strong "vision", but there was still a lot of possibilities for input to improve on that. In other scenarios, you often have fans talking about stuff and acting with "nerdrage" when something doesn't go as they want it to go. It seems to me that at least OpenDesign avoided such an atmosphere. Maybe because there were certain known "rules" to how you could contribute? Or due to the way people got part of it. 

It's possible that this wouldn't work on a subscription level, though, and you are entirely correct. Maybe there is some room for it. Like polls limited to read and answer by subscribers or something like that. "Brainstorm" threads - no definite end goal, no guarantees, just throwing out some ideas and see which ones stick and fit the "vision" but you (or whoever would lead the project) didn't come up on your own. You'll figure it out.


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## Mark (Mar 30, 2010)

Go to it, Morrus!  Best of luck with all the work involved in making this place better.  I think you are right to tier the sig abilties, including being able to turn them off only as the highest tier.  I'd stay away from the allowing people to change one anothers avatar or custom titles since that invites the type of confrontation (essentially name calling through words and pics) which usually is the most difficult of moderation duties.  The posrep-only system seems to do well enough allowing people to express when another EN Worlder is being helpful around the boards and the lack of negrep has proven to avoid pettiness and the same type of confrontation that I've already mentioned.  Keep up the good work and I look forward to seeing the additional changes.  Thanks!


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## Thornir Alekeg (Mar 30, 2010)

Unsure of the capabilities to do so, but thinking about the wonderful free stuff subscribers now have access to, would it make sense to have the heroic $3 subscibers have limited access (e.g. 1 download per month) versus unlimited access to Paragon subscribers?  Obviously that would partly depend upon how much content is added each month.  

I also like the idea of delayed access to new content for heroic tier subscribers.  

You mentioned increased XP power for subscribers (although I don't seem to have more than my 1 point - I'll have to check the thread in Meta to see what's up there), but one thing that I've seen complanits about is the XP to 50 people before you can rep somebody a second time; could that limit be lowered for subscribers?


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## Thornir Alekeg (Mar 30, 2010)

One more idea - a personal peeve of mine - could subscribers have the power to shut off "Share Facebook,Twitter and Digg this" tools at the top of a thread?  I never use them and, as I complained about once before in Meta, the Digg tool always seems to be the biggest hangup for thread loading.  

I know this is unlikely, but it annoys me enough that I would consider paragon tier subscription to kill it and speed up the page loads.


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## jbear (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Absolutely!  We've traditionally always tried to thank those who help out with CSA accounts.   It's a system I'm very much in favour of (and it helps those who are unable to purchase subscriptions).
> 
> The problem is the amounts of money we're talking is so low - a subscription isn't really worth much - that it feels almost insulting to offer one in exchange for more than an hour or two's work.  So as a formal "payment" system, I don't think it's appropriate; but as a "thank you for helping out" goodwill gesture, it's the least I can do.



It's a you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. In no way insulting. Give me a few ideas you want sketched out and I'll see what I can do. It will give me a focus/motivation to pick up my pencils and ink which are somewhat dusty of late.


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## vagabundo (Mar 30, 2010)

I would be a sad panda if my sig was gone completely, esp being a subscriber. I wouldnt mind if it was limited in some fashion.

I don't think i could sign up for anything more that the 2 Euro sub; the sub currently flies under my wifes credit card scanning radar.

I would like to see something for PDAs/Mobiles; a low bandwidth version of the site. 

Anyway, keep up the good work. I do like supporting enworld, the extra goodies are just gravy for me.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> That'll be the other 249,000 people who visit each month!




My first question would be is that a quarter million unique vistors and not bots?
Cause if it is than the state of our hobby is doing quite well if a fan site can pull in a quarter million unique vistors.
Especially considering looking at the stat block saying the most users online at one time was 4,029 on April 8, 2009 around 12:04PM.  30 days of that with each one of them being unique would only net you about 120 thousand in a month.

I would start it small.  Additional skins, avatar use, sig sizes/linking.
The plan and desire to move forward is solid enough.  You will always have detractors from it.  Including me.  But I'll at least give you a honest opinion on the move.
Though if you ever offer something I can't find elsewhere, you might earn the $$ out of my wallet.


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## Jeff Wilder (Mar 30, 2010)

TerraDave said:


> Just found it.[Forum Jump is] a great feature.



It's a great feature in a silly place.

Think about it ... am I going to want to jump to my next forum before or after I'm done reading the current forum?  And if I'm done reading the last thread on the current forum, am I at the top of the page or the bottom?

Forum Jump should be at both the top and bottom, or if only in one place, at the bottom.

Regarding .sigs, I enjoy reasonable .sigs.  But I despise long, rainbow-colored, animated GIFed .sigs.  The idea that creating long, rainbow-colored, animated GIFed .sigs is a desirable thing -- something someone would and should pay money for -- is stunningly ridiculous.

Call me old, but these .sigs are the internet equivalent of wearing your pants sagging around your knees.  Pull your damned pants up, people.


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## Umbran (Mar 30, 2010)

grodog said:


> I think it's worth you spending some time to describe all of this in more detail, Morrus:  I understand that you have some additional functionality planned, but it sounds like you're revealing bits and pieces of it and that we're not really seeing the big picture.  Without that big picture, I think it's easy for us to get mired in some of the details you have mentioned, and (perhaps) to blow them out of proportion WRT possible plans that you're considering.




Giving out details of a plan comes across as a promise, and that's not usually something application providers want to do.  If he reveals the plan, but some technical limitation leads to a compromise such that he deviates from the plan, he can (and probably will) be accused of "lying" or trying to mislead folks for PR and advertising benefit.

Take a look at WotC, and the virtual tabletop.  Bad scene, because they ended up not delivering on a plan they made public.  If they never made it public, there'd have been little fallout from not making good on the plan.


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## Jeff Wilder (Mar 30, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Take a look at WotC, and the virtual tabletop.  Bad scene, because they ended up not delivering on a plan they made public.  If they never made it public, there'd have been little fallout from not making good on the plan.



That's because there's a difference between "this is what's going to happen," and "this is what we're going to try to make happen."

The former _is_ a promise, and the latter isn't.  Considering that it's plain English, the distinction would only be lost on ... well, honestly, who cares who it would be lost on?


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Especially considering looking at the stat block saying the most users online at one time was 4,029 on April 8, 2009 around 12:04PM. 30 days of that with each one of




That's not 4000 users per day, it's 4000 users_ at one time_. That day saw tens of thousands of users.

4000 visitors on one day would be a very slow day indeed.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> That's not 4000 users per day, it's 4000 users_ at one time_. That day saw tens of thousands of users.
> 
> 4000 visitors on one day would be a very slow day indeed.



Your seizing on the wrong line of it.
Is that a quarter million UNIQUE visitors to the website in a one month span?

Yes I know that the 4k mark is at one instance a number of unique visitors.

When you start on the quarter a million mark, does that include folks like me who on average use at least 4 different machines in a month to access the site, but all with my one account?  Am I 4 of those visits?
Don't confuse page hits with unique visitors they are two seperate things entirely for advertisers.


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## darjr (Mar 30, 2010)

That was when the WotC PDF's were pulled. It was a big day all round.

(I think)


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## the Jester (Mar 30, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> That's because there's a difference between "this is what's going to happen," and "this is what we're going to try to make happen."
> 
> The former _is_ a promise, and the latter isn't.  Considering that it's plain English, the distinction would only be lost on ... well, honestly, who cares who it would be lost on?




Tell that the all the people that called the Rouse a liar immediately following the 4e announcement. 

People rarely hear what others say; instead, they tend to hear _what they hear._


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

darjr said:


> That was when the WotC PDF's were pulled. It was a big day all round.
> 
> (I think)



Actually it was right after they were pulled with bets going on about how soon the latest book coming out would be pirated.  If I remember right I know I found copies of it rather quickly, with full scannable bookmarked ones becoming available by the end of the week proving the pulling of PDFs had nothing to do with piracy.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Don't confuse page hits with unique visitors they are two seperate things entirely for advertisers.




Yes, Yeti, I am fully conversant with the terminology. I've been doing this a decade now. Thanks, though.

Page hits run into the millions.  Several millions.


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## darjr (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Actually it was right after they were pulled with bets going on about how soon the latest book coming out would be pirated.  If I remember right I know I found copies of it rather quickly, with full scannable bookmarked ones becoming available by the end of the week proving the pulling of PDFs had nothing to do with piracy.




Actually I think all it proved was that pulling the PDF's was next to useless. Unless that little window of a couple days was a huge boost to sales, it was pointless for fighting piracy.

I'm not sure it says anything at all about WotC management's intent.

But yes, that was after they were pulled.

And sorry for thread capping.

I don't really have much to say except that I don't generally use signatures, though I understand they will be missed. I hope that a compromise can be made. I also hope and suspect that this will lead to bigger and better things for ENWorld.


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## Scotley (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Dice Roller - very nice to have and could be worth it for some subscribers.  But than again, Invisible Castle offers the same thing for free with code to put on the message board to show your rolls.




I agree Invisible Castle does the job, but it requires use of another site that has occasional stability problems with a separate log in. It would be much smoother to have an integrated die roller here and it doesn't seem like it would be that complicated to do.


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## Umbran (Mar 30, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> The former _is_ a promise, and the latter isn't.  Considering that it's plain English, the distinction would only be lost on ... well, honestly, who cares who it would be lost on?




Jeff, these people are first and foremost members of this community.  They are also either paying customers, or potential paying customers.  If Morrus didn't care about their (and by inclusion _your_) opinions, this thread itself would not exist!

The basic reality is that some notable number of customers are not apt to react with such rational calm when disappointed.  Even normally gracious people can react quite negatively when you let them down. That negativity can feed on itself and grow - this is how PR debacles are born.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Well, the idea is that we provide a much better functionality for finding games and gamers.  In fact what we have planned (which will be free) is going to be pretty darn spiffy!  Maps, events, etc.  Youll be able to find everyone within X miles of you in a matter of seconds.



I must have been mistaken then. I thought the idea was to create a really nice Gamers Seeking Gamers functionality but making it available only to paid subscribers. If that's a free tool, that would be awesome. There is a lot of potential to making that free...it could bring in a lot more new visitors to ENworld.



Morrus said:


> One thing folks seem to be doing is concentrating soley on the "losing sigs" part of the plan.



It always sucks whenever you have something taken away from you regardless of getting something in return. For me, the reason is because I get more use out of my sigs and other people's sigs than I do most of the things that I may get in return. It also seems strange because sigs are such a standard feature for a forum. I'd also be making a big stink about the Search feature, but I just do a google search and can usually find the thread I was looking for. So I never bother to voice an opinion about that.



> Ignoring subscriptions for the moment - assuming you're not a subscriber, and don't intend to be - you'd be losing sigs, but getting a crapload of really awesome stuff for free in return.



So then why exactly is a sig important enough to be taken away from the general public and made into a paid only feature if you're willing to give us all of this "awesome stuff for free"?

Allowing a non-subscriber the ability to send and receive private messages via an Inbox is ok, but sigs are important enough to pay for? Is the only reason you really want to eliminate the sig is so people like me can't advertise a measly website? That's the only logical explanation I can think of seeing as how many current subscribers have stated that they don't even care about sigs and paying for them is not a perk.

I've been creating all kinds of reference lists for 3.5 content in Excel and have already had people in the rules forum asking for it. I had planned to add it to my other resources that I have linked in my sig. I just can't figure out why a fan of RPGs like yourself would want to limit other people from providing useful gaming related content via links in their sigs unless you're making money from it.

I don't go actively looking for content very often at all. But I have noticed a crapload of sigs while I'm reading posts and clicked them before I finished reading the thread. But that's sure not something I'd be glad to be paying for. Taking it away is just an annoyance and makes me feel bullied into subscribing. Taking anything away seems like a form of bullying into subscribing.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Umbran said:


> If Morrus didn't care about their (and by inclusion _your_) opinions, this thread itself would not exist!



Lets be honest, he didn't start this thread to ask the community what we would think if he made these changes. He started this thread to tell us what changes he is going to make.


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## Jeff Wilder (Mar 30, 2010)

Umbran said:


> The basic reality is that some notable number of customers are not apt to react with such rational calm when disappointed.  Even normally gracious people can react quite negatively when you let them down. That negativity can feed on itself and grow - this is how PR debacles are born.



While I won't go so far as to dispute this, universally, i will say that until I actually see it happen, I'm not going to believe it in these specific circumstances.

You brought up the VTT.  The VTT was _promised_.  It was _advertised_ as part of Fourth Edition, available at launch.  People reacted badly to it becoming vaporware because it was a _promise_ that didn't happen, a promise that at least some people relied on when spending their money, not simply because it didn't happen.

So don't make a promise.  Just be extraordinarily clear and above-board: "This is what we're hoping to do.  This is our plan, but plans can change.  We are not making promises."  And if people still get pissed off because "promises were broken," I _promise_ I'll come back to this thread and _mea culpa_.

But until this is tried, I for one am not going to accept "people will pillory us" as a valid reason for not sharing plans.  There are plenty of valid reasons for not sharing plans -- and, in fact, "we don't want to share plans" is good enough -- but "we're afraid it'll be taken as a promise" isn't a good one.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> I must have been mistaken then. I thought the idea was to create a really nice Gamers Seeking Gamers functionality but making it available only to paid subscribers. If that's a free tool, that would be awesome. There is a lot of potential to making that free...it could bring in a lot more new visitors to ENworld.




Making Gamers Seeking Gamers available to only a few people wouldn't make sense. It works by having a large user base!

So then why exactly is a sig important enough to be taken away from the general public and made into a paid only feature if you're willing to give us all of this "awesome stuff for free"?



> Allowing a non-subscriber the ability to send and receive private messages via an Inbox is ok, but sigs are important enough to pay for?




PMs are needed so mods can contact people without valid email addresses.



> Is the only reason you really want to eliminate the sig is so people like me can't advertise a measly website?




Not only is not not the only reason, it isn't even one of the reasons.



> Taking anything away seems like a form of bullying into subscribing.




I'm sorry you feel that way.  I do not wish to "bully" you.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.  I do not wish to "bully" you.



Seeing as how you haven't really told us what all of these free new features are going to be, then I can't very well be excited about it, right? Especially knowing that features I already enjoy are being taken away. I find it amusing that you reply with such a snarky attitude as if *I'm* the one being unreasonable. 

All I'm doing is sharing an opinion and critiquing.
Maybe I missed it within the 10 pages of the thread, but the only free feature I'm aware of so far is the Gamers Seeking Gamers interface. And so far, I get use out of sigs a thousand times over than I do with the Gamers Seeking Gamers feature. So excuse me if I'm not jumping for joy right now.


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Making Gamers Seeking Gamers available to only a few people wouldn't make sense. It works by having a large user base!



Glad you feel that way.  I would agree.



Morrus said:


> PMs are needed so mods can contact people without valid email addresses.



Um Morrus it is possible for VBul to allow Mods to PM to people unable to PM.
One of the forums I'm on that restricts PM's allows for this.
They can PM you, you can reply to it via using your email person function to contact them back.  The site if very strict on who has access where and how much access.



Morrus said:


> Not only is not not the only reason, it isn't even one of the reasons.



IMHO It should be a reasoning for it.  After all they are using your bandwidth to advertise their wares.  Weather they are giving it out free or not.  
I think folks are over valuing their sigs and other people's sigs.
Honestly there is nothing stopping you from creating a thread in the appropriate forum with the links.




Morrus said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.  I do not wish to "bully" you.



I would call it bullying.  The better definition is exthortion as discussed before.   LOL
No one is begrudging you for trying to make a buck.  But when you start out with saying the subscriber model has worked well enough to become self-sustaining your going to get grief if you begin cutting 'services' to increase sales of another tier.

The real key to making yourself grow is again, what do you offer I can't not find any other place on the Web.  Or what do you offer that is such a convience for me that I can't live without.
Find that piece and you earn more money.  It's a simple enough equation.


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## avin (Mar 30, 2010)

Just trying to add feedback: 

I was a subscriber for a while, just to help the site. Never downloaded anything. Had to stop to cut down my credit card monthly bill.

My major interest on Enworld is reading topics and posting. I have other two monthly subscriptions, DDI and World of Warcraft. 

DDI provides all functionality I need for my tabletop D&D games (I wish I had a Character Builder as good for GURPS...).

World of Warcraft provide me some moments of online gaming.

With that in mind, I don't think I would pay US$ 6.00 just for having my signature, because I'm not using any other function or downloading stuff.

Signatures aren't important for me, but I would consider weird to see a web forum charging for it.

I hope you still consider keeping sigs (for people who care) and mantaining a 3 or less dollars option for people who just want to collaborate with the community, as I do.


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## The Shaman (Mar 30, 2010)

Charging a fee for signatures? Yeah, go ahead and shut my signature off - I'll just append the same text to the end of my posts instead.


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## Tortoise (Mar 30, 2010)

My 2 coppers:

I could see limiting size and function of sigs for non-subscribers, however taking them away entirely seems like it would negatively impact the usefulness pointed out by several on this thread already. There have been a few times where someone's sig info helped me find something useful and/or interesting both within and outside of EN World.

How about allowing subscribers to turn off their viewing of sigs and adverts instead. That way it would be a subscribers choice if they felt the need to have pages loading quicker on some occasions and wanted to see what was out there on other occasions.


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## Tortoise (Mar 30, 2010)

I just checked and subscribers can turn off ads and sigs, so just ignore my inane comments.


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## Tortoise (Mar 30, 2010)

Ok, pardon my air-headedness today please ... I have a nasty head-cold and feel rather out of it, yuck.

Are private forums still available to subscribers or was that a limited time experiment?

That's the kind of thing I could see Paragon tier allowing. Someone pays the fee and can give out a password to their group members and only those folks can get to the forum.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> . I find it amusing that you reply with such a snarky attitude as if *I'm* the one being unreasonable.




I am neither trying to bully you, nor was I being snarky when I explained that I was not trying to bully you.

Here's what we're going to do, folks - we are going to leave out the personal comments and accusations.  You are welcome to politely debate the issue, but if you start getting personal you'll be asked to leave the thread.


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## Roger (Mar 30, 2010)

A higher-tier paid option to never see anyone's signature ever again -- now that would be the sort of thing I might pay an additional $3 a month for.

Under your current proposal, my concern on a technical level would be that people will just move traditional sig info into the body of their messages.  If that's not a concern for you at all, then no problem.

Oh yeah -- I'd also be tempted to pay more for a 'print page' option that would give me more than 20 posts at a time.  I really like rpg.net's 200 posts per page.

(I know you're not actually soliciting suggestions in this thread per se, so sorry if that's a bit of a derailment.)



Cheers,
Roger


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Roger said:


> (I know you're not actually soliciting suggestions in this thread per se, so sorry if that's a bit of a derailment




Sure I am!  I can't promise to adopt any particular suggestion, but I'm open to them!


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> SThanks for listening, guys! I hope that most of you can get on board with the coming changes, and that I've managed to explain the reasoning behind them.



Here's the thing: you haven't explained the reasoning for them. Not to continue harping on the sigs, but it's the only thing being taken away from users so it does stand out. You haven't explained the reasoning behind that move at all. Oryan77 took a guess, and you said he's wrong...but you didn't give the right answer.

A cynic might guess "Because lots of people like to use sigs and maybe we can get some of them to pay for the privilege which is normally granted for free?" If that's not the right answer, what is?

The site has come a long way from the not-too-distant past of literally begging for money from users to stay afloat. It's quite a turn-around. Don't get dizzy.


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## Obryn (Mar 30, 2010)

How much would it cost to filter out overinflated senses of entitlement?

-O


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> The site has come a long way from the not-too-distant past of literally begging for money from users to stay afloat.




I'm not sure I see the relevance. Are you suggesting that potential revenue streams be ignored and that the site return to a barely-afloat begging status?  I'm somewhat unclear as to why you brought that up?


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## TheYeti1775 (Mar 30, 2010)

Obryn said:


> How much would it cost to filter out overinflated senses of entitlement?
> 
> -O



Vbull does have an ignore feature, where you can specifically ignore a person's posts.  You never see them, unless someone quotes them.  Depends on if Morrus has it turned on here.  I've never had a need to see if it worked here or not.



Morrus said:


> I'm not sure I see the relevance. Are you suggesting that potential revenue streams be ignored and that the site return to a barely-afloat begging status?  I'm somewhat unclear as to why you brought that up?



Morrus I think what he is refering to, is don't get dizzy from the rise from beggar to king.  Remember what and who got you there, else you might be tempted by the $$ flow to the point it might alienate those who support you at your base.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Morrus I think what he is refering to, is don't get dizzy from the rise from beggar to king. Remember what and who got you there, else you might be tempted by the $$ flow to the point it might alienate those who support you at your base.




"King"?  I think people might be overestimating things somewhat.  I'm hardly buying ferraris and mansions here!  I'm merely exploring ways of funding long-overdue features.


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## samursus (Mar 30, 2010)

As I can see this thread degrading to a certain degree, I'll add my opinions quickly.

I agree with most others that suggested "taking away something" isn't good.  I will say, that a graduated sig model seems fair: 3lines/free, 6lines/$3...etc.  (sigs seems to be the hot topic)

Same with the subscriber content: I would cancel my $3/month subscription if I lost access to that content (especially the WotBS modules) even though most of it isn't useful to me.  That which is is why I subscribe, and to a lesser extent, community support.  

Basically, if you kept _*most*_ things the same, only adding functions/content for a "paragon" subscription in addition to what we have, I see no problems... ethically or otherwise.  

I am a bit surprised at those who feel that Morrus' explanations and revelations are anything but his right to run _his_ site any way he wants, projecting nefarious and unethical judgements upon his plans.  Keep it in perspective folks.


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## Mistwell (Mar 30, 2010)

New Idea for the Signatures aspect of the subscriptions:

Tier 0 (free): *Non-commercial simple signature line*.  A few lines of text and links allowed (no graphics, as that costs EW more in bandwidth), as long as they are not an ad or a link to a commercial product or commercial site.  Enforced mostly based on the honors system (you're all honorable, right?).  This tier includes things like links to favorite threads, story hours, non-commercial gaming blogs, favorite characters, PBP recruitment, etc... are all non-commercial in nature and would be free (provided they had no graphics in the signature, which take up extra bandwidth that EW has to pay for).

Tier 1 (Heroic): *Commercial simple signature line*.  Text and links allowed. No graphics.  Things like my signature, which has a link to my company, a commercial business, Academic Caps and Gowns (see what I did there?).  However, it has no graphics.  So it would qualify for the Tier 1 rate (Heroic).

Tier 2 (Paragon): *Non-commercial or Commercial signature line with graphics*.  Text, Links, and Graphics allowed.  Things like this in your signature would be Tier 2, because it both costs EW more in bandwidth, and ads more value to the commercial venture to attract attention with a graphic:






A lot of people have links to their gaming company, donation or ad-supported blog, and other sites with a commercial aspect to them, and those would all be under Tier 1 or 2 (depending on whether they had graphics in the signature).

Make sense? That way most people lose nothing from the new subscription model, and most of the utility of signatures is kept intact for links to useful non-commercial gaming information.  Some people will have to choose if they want to pay to offer a link to their potentially money making website in a signature line or else leave that link out, but it seems reasonable to ask for money back for something that makes a person money.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Mar 30, 2010)

I'd like a function to find gamers.  A friend and I have been discussing this over e-mail just today.  So count this as one of those e-mails you get discussing the matter 

As for the Sigs, I'd listen to the users.  I think if you read through this thread, a couple of common themes come through

1.  People like their sigs - some are willing to see limits based upon what they can have in their sig based upon subscriber level.
2.  I don't know what I'm getting for $6.

For myself, I use this site's message boards and enjoy them.  When those functions go behind the pay wall, I'll stop using this site and move on to somewhere else.  I hope that day never comes.


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## Obryn (Mar 30, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> And so far, I get use out of sigs a thousand times over than I do with the Gamers Seeking Gamers feature. So excuse me if I'm not jumping for joy right now.



Honestly, do you think it's fair to Morrus to advertise a business - for sake of argument, one involving the buying and selling of miniatures - on his privately-owned forums for free?  Lots of people pay for banner ads for the privilege to do so, which are more expensive, more block-able, and quite possibly less effective than a signature.

Wouldn't you say it's fair and reasonable to pay for the right to advertise on a site?

I can see how folks who use their signatures for little jokes, edition digs, and useful links might not think it's worthwhile to pay for a signature.  But someone who's advertising in theirs should certainly see the value there.

-O


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:


> 2. I don't know what I'm getting for $6.




Well, $3.  It's $3 more but _includes_ the (existing)  $3 subscription.  Sorry, it may be that I wasn't clear on that; the existiing $3 subscription will remain in place.



> For myself, I use this site's message boards and enjoy them. When those functions go behind the pay wall, I'll stop using this site and move on to somewhere else. I hope that day never comes.




There are disaster stories all over the web, from organizations large and small, which tried moving everything behind a pay wall.  It doesn't work.  There's no danger of me doing that.


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Well, $3.  It's $3 more but _includes_ the (existing)  $3 subscription.  Sorry, it may be that I wasn't clear on that; the existiing $3 subscription will remain in place.




I've failed my knowledge check again.  Can I take 20?


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I'm not sure I see the relevance. Are you suggesting that potential revenue streams be ignored and that the site return to a barely-afloat begging status?  I'm somewhat unclear as to why you brought that up?



Okay, pretend I didn't write that part. Could you address the main body of my post?


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## Mistwell (Mar 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Okay, pretend I didn't write that part. Could you address the main body of my post?




I thought he answered it in the first post: "Limiting sigs to subscribers - *a feature that I tend to find distracting* - seemed to be the right choice. " There are probably other reasons, but he did give that one as a reason.


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Obryn said:


> Honestly, do you think it's fair to Morrus to advertise a business - for sake of argument, one involving the buying and selling of miniatures - on his privately-owned forums for free?



I don't make a banner ad in my sig with pictures. I made my link as unobtrusive as I could so I don't annoy anyone. I also don't spam threads with useless posts. I write legitimate (and ungodly long) posts. If someone happens to see the sig, great!

I understand everyone wants a piece of the pie. But honestly, no, if I ran a website and someone did the same thing without being annoying about it (or being in direct competition with me), I would have no problem at all if he made a few bucks from it. I'd be glad to help out...especially during a recession like this.  

In fact, I have a forum for my commerical website (nobody uses though). Anyone is free to post links to their site there as long as it is not in competition with what I am trying to sell: http://rpglocker.proboards.com/index.cgi

This website did not start out as a business. It was and is a forum. This "forum" wouldn't have become what it is if it wasn't for all of us visiting it and telling other people to visit it. We helped Morrus get to the point where he could possibly make money from this website. And if he can make money from it, that is awesome.

I contribute by not blocking banner ads and occasionally clicking them. I contribute by making posts and telling other people that ENworld is a good place to go to read/discuss D&D. Therefore, I partly contributed to Morrus getting to the point where he could make money from his site. If someone is mad that I am not paying for the text that I have that links to a commercial website while I am (hopefully) making interesting posts, then that's just greedy. Morrus says that is not his reasoning, so I am not referring to him as being greedy. I'm just speaking in general.

Don't get me wrong, if I could afford to pay for a banner ad here, I would. But I can't right now, and I didn't think the sig was a big deal. Especially since Morrus was cool enough to have a Marketplace forum where we could buy & sell stuff. But if it is a big deal because people should be profiting off of my sig, then he can just tell me to remove it. But it seems it will be removed anyway since I won't be a subscriber.

*edit* Sorry, I didn't mean to derail the thread. I was just answering Obryn. If this is an annoyance, I don't mind responding to PMs instead.


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> I thought he answered it in the first post: "Limiting sigs to subscribers - *a feature that I tend to find distracting* - seemed to be the right choice. " There are probably other reasons, but he did give that one as a reason.



That answer doesn't make sense to me. Presumably the distracting sigs are the overly large or colourful ones, or those with pics or links etc. Those would still exist, but only from subscribers. If that's the issue, simply eliminating images from sigs and limiting the size is the answer. Otherwise you still have the problem, just a bit less of it.


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## Fifth Element (Mar 30, 2010)

samursus said:


> I am a bit surprised at those who feel that Morrus' explanations and revelations are anything but his right to run _his_ site any way he wants, projecting nefarious and unethical judgements upon his plans.



No argument that it's his right to do whatever he wants with the site, but starting a thread and inviting comments...invites comments.

There are no ethics to debate here, just business practices. Possible customers are telling him that they don't like where this is going. That taking away something from your potential customers that you used to give for free has implications to the customer base. If he chooses to ignore this input, that's absolutely up to him. But it doesn't mean it shouldn't be said.

It does make me feel a bit squirmy though, because back when he was asking for donations, some people raised the question of why we should donate money to a for-profit enterprise? The response was that EN Publishing was for-profit, but ENWorld was not. It was just supposed to cover its costs. If that's changed now, I'd appreciate a clarification.


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## LightPhoenix (Mar 30, 2010)

Henry said:


> Besides, If I really want to keep a lump sum each year instead of a subscription, I could easily just buy a pre-paid credit card from my local department store, Target, or Wal-mart, and charge it to that. Not a big deal.




I'm adamantly opposed to Paypal, and won't let them anywhere near my financials.  They're basically a non-FDIC bank, and there's lot of shenanigans with them, including as I recall some with ENW.  For that reason, I've refused to get a membership here (since credit goes through them), despite being a long time poster.

I'm pretty sure this is the best idea I've ever heard, and if I can use it to pay without giving Paypal access to my info, you can be by the end of the week when I get paid I'll be getting a subscription.  I still don't support Paypal, but I've been wanting to support ENW for a long time.

You may not be a mod anymore, but you're still awesome!


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## Oryan77 (Mar 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> There are no ethics to debate here, just business practices. Possible customers are telling him that they don't like where this is going.



Yeah please don't anybody get me wrong. I'm just talking "business" and voicing an opinion. I wouldn't be speaking out if I wanted to see Morrus fail.



> It was just supposed to cover its costs. If that's changed now, I'd appreciate a clarification.



Morrus stated months ago that he wants to live off the profits he can make by turning ENworld into a profitable business rather than just a free forum. That's why he's making changes and trying to provide features people would be willing to pay for.


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## Morrus (Mar 30, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> The response was that EN Publishing was for-profit, but ENWorld was not. It was just supposed to cover its costs. If that's changed now, I'd appreciate a clarification.




That changed some months ago with the start of the subscriptions.  It was fairly public, and there was a big thread about it at the time.


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## sjmiller (Mar 30, 2010)

Morrus, I am looking through all of this, and it sounds like a subscription could be quite interesting. However, I also see something that strikes me as potentially harmful to your bottom line. It's a little thing I learned over the many years I have been involved with promoting a business. That thing is: Never take away, always add to.

What that means, in this case, is that taking away whatever it is that viewers currently gets is not a wise move. People will ask, "Why was it free before, but now they charge for it? What made it more valuable?" I know this will happen, because it was one of the first things that came to mind for me. Instead, entice them with the idea that they can get what they get now for free, but if they subscribe they get all this *bonus* stuff.

It is the classic "But wait, there's more!" ploy. Ron Popeil has been using this ploy for years here in the States and is a huge success. Not only that, but people will focus on what they are *not* getting instead of what they could get by subscribing.

Now for some personal reasons for saying this. I know that personally I cannot afford a subscription right now. That $3.00 is going to keeping a roof over my head and feeding my family. If I were to lose the features I currently have here, it would be one reason to reduce (but not stop) my participation here. Not only that, but if signatures are part of the subscription plan I guess I would resort to using a browser macro and adding a sig to the bottom of all my posts. I like people to know who I am, and to know that I am part of the wider gaming community. Sure, I am a poor part of it, but I am a part just the same.


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## Mistwell (Mar 30, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> I'm adamantly opposed to Paypal, and won't let them anywhere near my financials.  They're basically a non-FDIC bank, and there's lot of shenanigans with them, including as I recall some with ENW.  For that reason, I've refused to get a membership here (since credit goes through them), despite being a long time poster.
> 
> I'm pretty sure this is the best idea I've ever heard, and if I can use it to pay without giving Paypal access to my info, you can be by the end of the week when I get paid I'll be getting a subscription.  I still don't support Paypal, but I've been wanting to support ENW for a long time.
> 
> You may not be a mod anymore, but you're still awesome!




Well, your deposits can be FDIC insured through paypal though.

Regardless, I think adding something like Authorize.net to EnWorld, which can accept credit cards and eChecks directly, would be a good idea.


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## Rel (Mar 30, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> You may not be a mod anymore, but you're still awesome!




And his voice is just dreamy.


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## UngainlyTitan (Mar 30, 2010)

Well I would add to the chorus that it would be a bad business decision to take stuff away. That said you should consider if some of the VTT people would be interested in a situation where ENworld offered a game lobby similar to that provided by Gamespy for online gaming and pick up games and groups. Especially if it also allowed the facility for subscribers to import session chat logs for use in creating story hours.


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## rgard (Mar 31, 2010)

TerraDave said:


> First, glad to see that things are working.
> 
> Second, $6 per month crosses that $50 per year threshold and says "expensive" (even if it really isn't). You'll have to offer some good stuff. And be careful about taking away from $3 subscribers...this is potentially dangerous (even if it shouldn't be or changes are seemingly small).
> 
> I look forward to learning more.




Agreed on that.  It would be annoying to lose something in hand while paying the same amount.  

Of course, I've had the same lame sigs for awhile now.


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## pawsplay (Mar 31, 2010)

First, while I don't want to discount the empirical evidence of the people who run the site, I do want to raise a flag of warning. I did not subscribe because the site went monthy. I subscribed because, between the time I decided to subscribe and a few months later when I had the money, the site switched to monthly subscriptions. I think it's possible you would have seen some drop in subscriptions, or just a lack of new subscriptions, during the same time period just because fo the belt-tightening effects of the recession. 

Second, I don't like the sig idea. I can live with the Search thing, because it restricts site usage, and because I can use Google to circumvent the issue. With sigs, though, you are charging a premium for someone to contribute something. However banal and self-serving some sigs may be, others are amusing, informative, advertising, interesting, and above all, connected to the rest of the 'net. Already, EN World has steadily degraded the non-paying experience to the point I wonder where new paying subscribers are going to come from. I know that when I check the site before I leave work, I log in, against my usual habit for a quick browse, in order to avoid my browser being nearly shut down by creeping banner ads.

Third, the Internet is information and the flow of information is extremely low cost. I think it's bucking long term trends to try to generate revenue through restrictions, rather than through offering value that exceeds free options.

Fourth, "It's my site and I say so," is not a justifiable approach to community leadership. I don't come here to visit with Morrus and the staff and shop at the ENWorld store front and so forth. I come here for the community. The community has formed around a valuable web site, but that web site should not take the community for granted. $3 a month subscription charges do not generate the hundreds of posts and users that make this site worthwhile. When I first started using the Internet, many sites actually cost their owners money to maintain, but the site was deemed an end unto itself. Obviously, not everyone is free to engage in such charity. Nonetheless, I don't like being viewed as a revenue stream. If I am to be expected to contribute financially to a website, I expect my voice to be appreciated by the people administrating it. I read a half dozen or more web sites regularly, and I'm not going to give them each $3 a month just to do whatever they feel like doing. The forums are the lifeblood, and charging for this or that feature is really distracting from that central purpose. I don't really want a lot of awesome features, I just want a message board that works and a long-term, stable community to invest my time with.


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## RangerWickett (Mar 31, 2010)

First, I'm thrilled the site is prospering.

Second, it looks rather untenable to sell the community on ditching sigs, or anything really. Even just floating the idea has generated a lot of ill emotions, and this site lives and dies with its community.

I figure most folks _would_ be fine with a gradient, so casual sigs are available to all, but bigger ones are only available to subscribers. However, that's pretty niche, and I could foresee people making more bright, flashy sigs just because they can. That might end up an unintended annoyance.

Third, there are plenty of new stuff that can be added that would encourage more people to subscribe, even to an epic tier. (I prefer thinking that all posters are heroic, subscribers are paragon, and supersubscribers are epic.) Making a 'gamer finder' free to all could be balanced by, say, offering personal forums to epic subscribers, and perhaps something like a weekly "cool on EN World" -- the niftiest new thread in 3 or 4 forums, voted on by the epic folks, posted on the home page. Storyhour folks could strive for recognition, min-maxers would compete for the jankiest build, and GMs would be encouraged to post their best ideas.

Make them into actual epic heroes by empowering them to spread word of excellent threads. And, I dunno, offer 'epic destinies' as a gimmick. It could be something as simple as a second line on the User Title, perhaps with a colorful highlight.

Thornir Alekeg
D&D expatriate
Scion of Drunkeness

(or whatever)


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## ashockney (Mar 31, 2010)

Honourable Guvnor, 

First, congratulations on your continued succes.  Congratulations on the success of the website.  Millions of hits=awesome!  Thank you, as always, for being open and willing to have a public dialogue, man do I respect that.

Regarding sigs - much ado

As it regards brainstorming ideas, I would offer the following:
It's all about the community.
It's the community.
Community

Finally, I will reiterate the advice I've provided before with regards to your strategic plans.  Declare your venture a NOT FOR PROFIT initiative, but plan to take a fair and growing salary.  Declare a board of advisors.  Declare a mission statement, and empower it and the people of this amazing and outstanding community to be all that it can be.  I am confident it will be life-changing and amazing if you will take the leap.

Good gaming!

PS - Regarding Paypal.  They are not a regulated financial institution.  Your money is not protected by Reg E, nor is it insured.  It is a very high risk business partner, and you should strongly consider using financial tools that are regulated, secure, and insured.


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## Lanefan (Mar 31, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> I'm adamantly opposed to Paypal, and won't let them anywhere near my financials.  They're basically a non-FDIC bank, and there's lot of shenanigans with them, including as I recall some with ENW.  For that reason, I've refused to get a membership here (since credit goes through them), despite being a long time poster.
> 
> I'm pretty sure this is the best idea I've ever heard, and if I can use it to pay without giving Paypal access to my info, you can be by the end of the week when I get paid I'll be getting a subscription.  I still don't support Paypal, but I've been wanting to support ENW for a long time.
> 
> You may not be a mod anymore, but you're still awesome!



LightPhoenix for the win.

Morrus, I'm still willing to stop by in June and drop 50 pounds your way for a few years basic subscription...

Lan-"why hasn't this thread been stickied?  "-efan


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## Dragon Snack (Mar 31, 2010)

what I was originally going to say... said:
			
		

> Congrats on the success of ENWorld!  The site is running and loading faster, it's not frustrating to use anymore.  Thank you!
> 
> However, looking at my post count (effectively the tangible value ENWorld has to me), I have to tell you the cost/benefit just doesn't make it worth being a subscriber for me.
> 
> Taking away signatures so you can (effectively) ransom them for money to finance something else that should also make you money just doesn't sit right with me.  If the new projects have value, charge for them.  If they have more value when offered for free, they should be bringing in new people who will want to become subscribers because they are so good.




You know, after completely reading this thread, I remembered another reason I haven't posted much.

And since it appears the decisions have already been made...

So long - and thanks for all the fish!


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## Morrus (Mar 31, 2010)

OK, folks, I've been poking round the admin panel, and it appears that gradiated sigs are indeed feasible.  This sounds like a good compromise to me so - with thanks to you all for the feedback - that's the direction in which we're going to proceed.

Now it's time for me to get back to planning the other Paragon features!  I'll have more info on that later.


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## Fifth Element (Mar 31, 2010)

Good on ya, Morrus.


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## Theo R Cwithin (Mar 31, 2010)

Very cool, Russ... thanks!
Looking forward to whatever's on the way now.


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## Piratecat (Mar 31, 2010)

Lanefan said:


> Lan-"why hasn't this thread been stickied?  "-efan



Because most people ignore stickied threads!


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## Truth Seeker (Mar 31, 2010)

That's true...I do.


Piratecat said:


> Because most people ignore stickied threads!


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## Belen (Mar 31, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> Because most people ignore stickied threads!




Truth.  I almost avoided this one too.


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## PaulofCthulhu (Mar 31, 2010)

ashockney said:


> Declare your venture a NOT FOR PROFIT initiative.




This is not as easy as you may think in the UK. Having sought advice on this subject, certain requirements for "Social Enterprises" (which this may be seen as generally falling under) can be difficult to achieve. Not-for-profits, not so straight forward.

My own long term plans are: Educational Charity - but the requirements for that are even more difficult to achieve. 

I removed my .sig a long time ago, so personally I don't mind. Though it looks like graduated ones are being drafted in instead.


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## FoxWander (Mar 31, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> Because most people ignore stickied threads!




How about a stickied post with a link to this post then? That would've helped me- when I noticed that the forums had been re-structured I knew there had to be a post or announcement about it. When I saw this post title on the main forum page I figure this might be it and then I wondered why a thread entitled "Important: Please read!" _ from Morrus_ wasn't a sticky post. 

Anyway, a stickied post that points to this would be a best of both worlds kinda thing- because some of us DO pay attention to sticky posts. (I figure they're stuck at the top because they're important, so that's where I look for important messages like, "guess what- we're changing the forums around" or "hey- check out our experimental new layout and gives us feedback" kinda stuff. I don't expect that kinda stuff amongst all the other random post-of-the-moment.) 

The sticky, pointer post could be locked out so people can't post in it and wind up splittng the topic.


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## frankthedm (Apr 1, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Fourth, "It's my site and I say so," is not a justifiable approach to community leadership. I don't come here to visit with Morrus and the staff and shop at the ENWorld store front and so forth. I come here for the community. The community has formed around a valuable web site, but that web site should not take the community for granted. $3 a month subscription charges do not generate the hundreds of posts and users that make this site worthwhile. When I first started using the Internet, many sites actually cost their owners money to maintain, but the site was deemed an end unto itself. Obviously, not everyone is free to engage in such charity. Nonetheless, I don't like being viewed as a revenue stream. If I am to be expected to contribute financially to a website, I expect my voice to be appreciated by the people administrating it. I read a half dozen or more web sites regularly, and I'm not going to give them each $3 a month just to do whatever they feel like doing. The forums are the lifeblood, and charging for this or that feature is really distracting from that central purpose. I don't really want a lot of awesome features, I just want a message board that works and a long-term, stable community to invest my time with.



"You must spread some Experience Points around before giving it to pawsplay again."


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## ashockney (Apr 1, 2010)

PIM68 said:


> This is not as easy as you may think in the UK. Having sought advice on this subject, certain requirements for "Social Enterprises" (which this may be seen as generally falling under) can be difficult to achieve. Not-for-profits, not so straight forward.




Then file in the US.  

The world is flat, my friends.


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## pedr (Apr 1, 2010)

Morrus lives in the UK. Any income he generates for himself has to be declared in the UK. It is going to be most convenient to create any corporate body connected with ENWorld in the UK, under the UK's company laws. I know almost nothing about company law, but our distinction is between charities and non-charities, and charities have to be for some demonstrable public benefit. I'm not sure ENWorld could count! Even if ENWorld could be a charity, I'm not sure I can imagine what benefits there could be.


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## Mark (Apr 1, 2010)

pedr said:


> I know almost nothing about company law, but our distinction is between charities and non-charities, and charities have to be for some demonstrable public benefit.





It keeps any number of us away from the general population for many hours a day.  That's gotta be worth something, charitably speaking.


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## Hammerhead (Apr 1, 2010)

Charging three dollars per month for a signature seems quite pricey, and many people in the community will (quite rightly, might I add) feel that they're losing a feature. A feature that's free in every other message board I've been a member of. And while I'm not a subscriber now, I certainly wouldn't pay extra money just to have one. 

On the other hand, if this change funds a better Gamer Seeking Gamers function of EN World, I'm all for it. I think many of us could gain far more from finding people to play with than reading some pithy unrelated quote. 

Surely, however, there's better ways to increase profitability at EN World than taking away features from the community, then finding a way to charge money for them. First, I wonder if EN Publishing (and WotBS, etc.) even make any money at the end of the day, or if it's just a "vanity" project. Obviously, I haven't seen your financials, so I don't know. 

Also, EN World provides a huge service to the game creators like WotC and Paizo by creating a popular RPG community. I don't know whether EN World has kept me playing D&D but reading and participating discussions about D&D has certainly raised my overall interest, and doubtless resulted in the purchase of more gaming products overall. Why not charge game companies for game-related forums (probably at a monthly/yearly rate)? I'm sure that the 4th Edition forum has some value to WotC; ditto for Paizo and their own flagship product. The main stumble here would be to make sure that WotC buys the forum. 

Finally, the ads on EN World kind of suck. Well, for the most part, they really suck. Civony (the one with the ads that are practically softcore porn) being the most egregious offender. If there were some kind of quality standard for these ads, you could charge more, and you probably wouldn't have to make turning them off a bonus feature for subscribing. They could actually add value to the community (hey, here's something we think the typical EN Worlder may be interested in!) instead of being some garish eyesore.


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## Orius (Apr 1, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Just glancing through the control panel, the only other obvious thing currrently set to "off" is Animated Avatars.




Restricting animated avatars wouldn't bother me too much, but otherwise, avatars often make it easier to distinguish between different posters.  So I wouldn't want to see that feature lost.



TheYeti1775 said:


> Vbull does have an ignore feature, where you can specifically ignore a person's posts.  You never see them, unless someone quotes them.  Depends on if Morrus has it turned on here.  I've never had a need to see if it worked here or not.




I'm pretty sure there's a user ignore function. I never use ignore features anyway, so it's no big deal, but in any case, the mods usually crack down on the worst offenders fairly well, so that keeps offensive posters from proliferating.  Maybe that could be a subscriber feature?



Morrus said:


> OK, folks, I've been poking round the admin panel, and it appears that gradiated sigs are indeed feasible.  This sounds like a good compromise to me so - with thanks to you all for the feedback - that's the direction in which we're going to proceed.




Sounds fine to me; losing my sig would be disappointing but not a major loss.  This way, all I lose is the image, and that just promotes 4e, so I can live without it.  



Hammerhead said:


> Finally, the ads on EN World kind of suck. Well, for the most part, they really suck. Civony (the one with the ads that are practically softcore porn) being the most egregious offender.




Civony/Evony has been tame with their ads for the last few months.  They've actually been advertising the game instead of half-naked women.  Unfortunately, it gives me less to laugh at.


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## grodog (Apr 1, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Fifth Element said:
> 
> 
> > The response was that EN Publishing was for-profit, but ENWorld was not. It was just supposed to cover its costs. If that's changed now, I'd appreciate a clarification.
> ...




Hmmm, I missed that discussion, so thanks for clarifying.  ENWorld being a for-profit venture doesn't change my interest in the community, or my suggestions about how to better communicate changes to the community, but it is still good info to know, context-wise (this is probably what I get for not reading the front page, I imagine  ).



Umbran said:


> Giving out details of a plan comes across as a promise, and that's not usually something application providers want to do.




I think it would be even more important to provide a vision and execution plan if ENWorld is now a for-profit venture:  that way folks will have a stronger sense of trust in what's going on, as well as when features/etc. will be available/completed---we'll know what they're getting for their money, basically.  A good overall business plan, a project plan for site development, and a communication plan to help everyone understand what you're trying to do, strike me as essentials for running any business.



Umbran said:


> If he reveals the plan, but some technical limitation leads to a compromise such that he deviates from the plan, he can (and probably will) be accused of "lying" or trying to mislead folks for PR and advertising benefit.




Sure, but even if Morrus explicitly states that he's not committing to deliver anything in the plan (which, per my comment above, I think would be a mistake, but it's his choice to make either way), he could lay out the groundwork for his long term vision for what ENWorld will look like over the next 2-4 years or so, and how the Gamers Seeking Gamers and Online Gaming Tools features fit into that larger picture (are they the tip of the iceberg of the new site's features, are they the main components of the new revenue stream, are they free features available to all or will folks listing games have to pay a nominal fee, etc., etc.).  

More info about the overall direction and about specific site features simply means that folks can assess what their relative worth is, to them---either as current subscribers or possible future subscribers.  

And, along those lines, some sort of A La Carte subscription option might be worth considering too:  someone may not be interested in feature X at level 1, but really want feature Y at level 2, and feature Z at level 3.


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## Olaf the Stout (Apr 1, 2010)

You're not alone Grodog.  I was totally oblivious to the fact that when EN World switched to monthly subscriptions it became a for-profit venture.  I can understand Morrus wanting to get something out of all the time he puts in to the website.

At the same time, I can't help but feel that it takes away a bit of the "community" feel of the site (whether or not that is the case or not, that's just how I feel).

I can't really explain why I have that feeling either, I just do. 

Maybe it is because I felt that previously EN World existed just for gamers to interact with other gamers.  Now EN World still probably has the exact same goals as before, but it also has a goal of generating revenue above and beyond the costs of running the site.  I totally get that Morrus has put in a lot of hours and money in to the website over the years for little to no benefit, yet I still can't help but feel a little different about the site compared to the way I felt before.

Olaf the Stout


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 1, 2010)

Olaf the Stout said:


> yet I still can't help but feel a little different about the site compared to the way I felt before.




I do, too. I feel _better_ about it.

Let's not kid ourselves. The amount of effort that Morrus has put into this site for years is practically worthy of nomination for sainthood. Lots of people work a lot less hard for actual pay. The fact that the site's lasted this long is nothing short of a minor miracle, and the chances that a site this massive and complex could go on indefinitely without somehow paying its owner for his time were exactly zero. Sooner or later, real life--be it finances or simple emotional burnout--_were_ going to kill ENWorld; it was just a matter of time.

If the site can actually pay Morrus a living wage, even a small one, it's frankly got a much greater life expectancy than it ever had before.

This is not _in any way_ some sort of "betrayal" of the site as a community hub, any more than it was a betrayal of D&D when Gygax and Arneson decided to sell it, rather than give it away for free. That's what ENWorld was before it became for-profit, and that's what it is now. The primary difference is that now, it's liable to be around for a lot longer.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 1, 2010)

I, for one, welcome our tiered subscription overlords.

I've even already edited my sig to reflect some of the changes that have been discussed.


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## Sammael (Apr 1, 2010)

I urge you not to name the subscription tiers after 4e tiers. I for one will be really offended if you do this. I'm not kidding.


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## DaveMage (Apr 1, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> I do, too. I feel _better_ about it.




I would think so - since EN World pays you, right?


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## grodog (Apr 1, 2010)

Olaf the Stout said:


> At the same time, I can't help but feel that it takes away a bit of the "community" feel of the site (whether or not that is the case or not, that's just how I feel).
> 
> I can't really explain why I have that feeling either, I just do.




Like Ari, this change doesn't bother me at all either, but I can understand where you coming from Olaf.  



Mouseferatu said:


> Let's not kid ourselves. The amount of effort that Morrus has put into this site for years is practically worthy of nomination for sainthood. Lots of people work a lot less hard for actual pay. The fact that the site's lasted this long is nothing short of a minor miracle, and the chances that a site this massive and complex could go on indefinitely without somehow paying its owner for his time were exactly zero. Sooner or later, real life--be it finances or simple emotional burnout--_were_ going to kill ENWorld; it was just a matter of time.




And for that reason among many, I'm happy for Russ to make this transition from a freebie model to a business model successfully.  When Eric was ready to shut the site down 8-9 years ago, he had burned out on it (as I recall):  it was just too much to manage.  That Russ has kept the site going for so long, in the face of such financial uncertainty is a testament to his love for the site! 



Mouseferatu said:


> If the site can actually pay Morrus a living wage, even a small one, it's frankly got a much greater life expectancy than it ever had before.




I'll second that, which is why I think it's so important to be able to start out on the right foot, and to communicate clearly how this whole change-over is going to work:  I want the site to be successful, and for that to happen, Russ has to be able to make it work on his end, too.


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 1, 2010)

DaveMage said:


> I would think so - since EN World pays you, right?




A little bit, for my semi-monthly column, but not enough that it's going to influence my take on this issue one way or the other. Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of that when I posted; I was responding as a fan.

(Which reminds me, though, I do need to do another column in the very near future. I think I'm behind...)


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## Jeff Wilder (Apr 1, 2010)

Sammael said:


> I urge you not to name the subscription tiers after 4e tiers. I for one will be really offended if you do this. I'm not kidding.



I'll second this.  I won't personally be offended, but it will be _completely_ understandable if many, many people take something like this as an endorsement of 4E as the "official" game of EN World.

Frankly, that's what I'm worried about on learning that the site is for-profit now.  (Yes, it was news to me, too, and I visit the site several times a day.)  It may already be visible in the forum restructuring, although I allow for the possibility of selective perception there.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 1, 2010)

Sammael said:


> I urge you not to name the subscription tiers after 4e tiers. I for one will be really offended if you do this. I'm not kidding.






Jeff Wilder said:


> I'll second this.




I third this. I think the $3 subscription option should be called the Giant Mutant Fire Clam Tier and the $6 subscription option should be called the Flying Grizzly Bear WFLB Tier. That would be a lot less silly than naming them after 4E level tiers.


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## Rel (Apr 1, 2010)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> I third this. I think the $3 subscription option should be called the Giant Mutant Fire Clam Tier and the $6 subscription option should be called the Flying Grizzly Bear WFLB Tier. That would be a lot less silly than naming them after 4E level tiers.




I feel like we could anger more people going with Heroic Edition Warrior, Paragon Sandboxer and Epic Grognard as the tiers.


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## Nonei (Apr 1, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> I'll second this. I won't personally be offended, but it will be _completely_ understandable if many, many people take something like this as an endorsement of 4E as the "official" game of EN World.




QFT.  One of the reasons I switched to Enworld from the WOTC forums (and signed up as a community supporter) was the discussion here of more than D&D.  It would be a shame if newer people got the implication that Enworld also thinks that 4e is _the_ RPG to play.

I have nothing against 4e, personally, but it is not what I play, and I like to learn about other brands of RPGs as well.  The names of the pricing tiers, of course, are a small piece of the whole - but they are a very visible piece.


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## Relique du Madde (Apr 1, 2010)

Rel said:


> I feel like we could anger more people going with Heroic Edition Warrior, Paragon Sandboxer and Epic Grognard as the tiers.




Why not just go with Copper, Silver, Gold, Electrum, Platinum, Diamond, Gold-Pressed Latimuum, then Unobtainium?


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## Nifft (Apr 1, 2010)

Relique du Madde said:


> Why not just go with Copper, Silver, Gold, *Electrum*, Platinum, Diamond, Gold-Pressed Latimuum, then Unobtainium?



 Skip all those others.

Just have "Registered" (non-paying), "Supporter" ($3), and "Electrum Supporter" ($more). If you need one more tier, you could use Mithral, but it's less amusing than Electrum.

Electrum is awesome.

Cheers, -- N


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## Herobizkit (Apr 1, 2010)

As a random aside, I'm not terribly pleased with 3e stuff being lumped into the new "D&D legacy" catch-all category.  3e is still extremely in the market, and products are still being produced for it (though they are not "official" WotC stuff, the larger percentage of non-4e converts still play it).

As a suggestion, I'd like to see a way for the PbP folks to be able to keep track of their characters and IC/OOC threads outside of thread subscriptions.  Normally, people do so in their sigs, but if the "free" sigs are being removed, such support would still be an asset worth paying the $3 sub fee to me.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 1, 2010)

Relique du Madde said:


> Why not just go with Copper, Silver, Gold, Electrum, Platinum, Diamond, Gold-Pressed Latimuum, then Unobtainium?




But using Electrum Tier might cause people to associate the tiers with particular editions of D&D. We wouldn't want people to think the site was only for discussing pre-3E D&D.

So as not to offend anyone maybe they should just be named "$3 USD Subscription" and "$6 USD Subscription." Keep it generic. You wouldn't want to actually add any kind of gaming flavor to the names in case it's not a member's game of choice.


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## Fifth Element (Apr 1, 2010)

Morrus, if you do name the subscription levels after 4E tiers, I promise to subscribe.


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## darjr (Apr 1, 2010)

eh, I don't have a problem with the 4e tiers. I thought it was neat.

But subscriber and patron for the two paying tiers actually sounds better to me.


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## Sammael (Apr 1, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Morrus, if you do name the subscription levels after 4E tiers, I promise to subscribe.



Sorry, I'm already giving him money. Vote with your wallet.


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## Fifth Element (Apr 1, 2010)

Sammael said:


> Sorry, I'm already giving him money. Vote with your wallet.



How is saying "do this and I will give you money" *not* voting with your wallet?

I've been a community supported before. I'm just letting Morrus know that if you discontinue your subscription due to this "issue", I will be there to take up the slack immediately.


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## noretoc (Apr 1, 2010)

Just want to add, if I have to pay for a sig, I hope you plan on disabling the ability for board users to set them as not viewable.  If it cost me money, then people should have to see it to read my post.


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## Nifft (Apr 1, 2010)

noretoc said:


> Just want to add, if I have to pay for a sig, I hope you plan on disabling the ability for board users to set them as not viewable.  If it cost me money, then people should have to see it to read my post.



 Guy who cares too much about sigs here.

I leave sigs visible, but I put posters on my "Ignore" list if their sigs are too annoying relative to the value of their content.

That feature will still work.

Cheers, -- N


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## noretoc (Apr 1, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Guy who cares too much about sigs here.




It was more tongue in cheek for me, but may be something to think about for others.  My sig dosen't mean that much to me at all.


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## Wicht (Apr 2, 2010)

Count another paying member as not overly thrilled with the tiers being named for the 4e tiers.  It won't really influence me in and of itself but it does feed into the image of this as a 4e board, which it is not completely.


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 2, 2010)

Oh, my God. Really, people?

Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?

_*Really?*_

I'm sorry, but using those names does _not_ in any way imply that ENWorld if a 4E site. It implies exactly one thing: That the owner thought it was cute to use the names of the current edition of the game.

You don't like 4E? Fine. You don't like D&D at all? Fine; there's still a place for you on this site.

But you're going to be offended by it? Honestly and truly _offended_?

I've spent _years_ building a rep for being polite and diplomatic, here and on the other forums I frequent, and I intend, for the most part, to stick with that. But I have to say that, honestly, even for the home of hyperbole that is the Internet, that's some of the most ridiculous, nonsensical, self-entitled claptrap I've ever heard, and I can only hope that those of you making such a claim are playing an April Fool's joke on us.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> 
> Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?
> 
> ...




My thoughts exactly.  It's beyond silly.


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## On Puget Sound (Apr 2, 2010)

Bah!  Name the tiers after the only RPG any loyal citizen should be playing:
Red
Orange
Yellow 
Green
Blue
Indigo
Violet
Ultraviolet

Only a commie mutant traitor would disagree.


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## Nifft (Apr 2, 2010)

noretoc said:


> It was more tongue in cheek for me, but may be something to think about for others.  My sig dosen't mean that much to me at all.



 As you like. I'm someone who is very easily annoyed by sigs, yet I leave them turned on, because otherwise I'd miss too many useful links.



On Puget Sound said:


> ...
> Ultraviolet
> 
> Only a commie mutant traitor would disagree.



 Awesome. My revised list of suggested tier names:
- Regular ("Supporter", $3)
- Electrum ($more)
- Ultraviolet ($most)

Cheers, -- N


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## darjr (Apr 2, 2010)

How about Basic, Expert, and Companion?


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## Nonei (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> 
> Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?




I would like to point out that only one person actually used the term offended, and no one in any way implied that Morrus feels it's a 4e board.  

My position is only that it might add to an implication, at first glance, that 4e is the focus of these forums... which it's not.  There _is_ a place here for 4e, and all the editions, and any other RPGs.

And I do agree that it's cute to name it after the current edition, if slightly annoying to me for no good reason.  I also agree that it should be named something with gaming flavor, and I would choose heroic/paragon/epic over registered/subscriber/premium any day.



> I've spent _years_ building a rep for being polite and diplomatic, here and on the other forums I frequent, and I intend, for the most part, to stick with that. But I have to say that, honestly, even for the home of hyperbole that is the Internet, that's some of the most ridiculous, nonsensical, self-entitled claptrap I've ever heard, and I can only hope that those of you making such a claim are playing an April Fool's joke on us.



Being relatively new here, I have only read a few of your posts... but I can say that even when you're ticked off, you come across as polite and diplomatic (just ticked off)


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## Fifth Element (Apr 2, 2010)

darjr said:


> How about Basic, Expert, and Companion?



I'd be cool with that - but doesn't that risk the ire of those members who don't like BECMI?


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## Fifth Element (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> I'm sorry, but using those names does _not_ in any way imply that ENWorld if a 4E site. It implies exactly one thing: That the owner thought it was cute to use the names of the current edition of the game.



Exactly - just like the XP 'level titles' we have are all named after 4E monsters. It's just not an issue.


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## Mark (Apr 2, 2010)

Obviously, after all of the hubbub in the past about EN World having no edition bias it would be best with the new boards to remove that from the themes, both XP and tier supporter.  There are plenty of other ways to do it without having a bias one way or another.  Certainly, if this were the official WotC boards, you'd want to theme all the little touches toward the one game and the latest edition of it, but since this is neutral territory and it's just as easy to keep everyone happy by sticking with non-edition terminology.  No big deal.


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## darjr (Apr 2, 2010)

OK, how about Basic and Expert... just guess which version now!


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> 
> Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?
> 
> _*Really?*_




This has been another episode of REALLY wth Seth Meyers and Ari Marmell. Thank you and good night!


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## jaerdaph (Apr 2, 2010)

Personally, I'd avoid naming them after something edition specific since they will probably be out of date in the next 18 months when 5e comes out. But ultimately, it's really trivial what the tiers are called. 

As for my continued subscription, I'll just wait to see what the finalized plans are before I decide. I don't think EN World will ever be worth $6 a month to me, and depending what I get (or no longer continue to get) for $3 a month, it might not be worth that either. 

I'll just have to wait and see...


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## Jeff Wilder (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?  [Then six paragraphs of rant.]



Wow.


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## Lord Xtheth (Apr 2, 2010)

When I first came here, I decided to pay because I like the site. I payed for my year and was happy.
When the new formatted $3 subscription came out, I think I was in the first 10 people who subscribed, because again I realy like the site, it's people and generally everything about it!
When there was "Extra stuff" offered, I subscribed again, and started paying twice, because I thought to myself "That was nice of them, I should support these people"

Now I see a message that reads somthing along the lines of "pay us money 'or else' " and that doesn't sit quite as happily in my gullet.

Taking privilages that were once free away from people who don't pay isn't realy a good way to make money (At least I think it isn't). I realize offering more stuff to people who pay more money might be a little difficult for you, but it should be somthing you think about before you think about charging more money, and WAY before you tell people you're thinking about charging more money.

IMHO taking things away from people is a bad plan, and should definately be re-considered. 
Honestly though, whatever plan you chose to do, I hope it works well, and the site remains active and prosperous! Who knows, one day I might be up for an Ennie, or maybe writing articles for you, but hopefully it doesn't cost my fellow poor people too much to notice these things.


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## pawsplay (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> 
> Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?




No. Giving the OGL the bird, redesigning the D&D game line in a direction I consider a dead end, claiming monotremes have breasts, and turning gnomes into serial killers played by Elijah Wood offended me. Naming the tiers after 4e would just remind me that a) I was offended, and b) a lot of people don't care that I was offended and still take a great deal of pleasure in rubbing it in my face they don't care I was offended. I don't hold any ill will against Morrus if he goes that route, but it's this kind of post that puts a sour taste in my mouth about such things. Very poor form, dude.


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 2, 2010)

Oh, please. I'm not talking about any of that. It's done; play the game you want to play. I'm glad you've got Pathfinder and other 3E compatible stuff available. Seriously.

But this isn't about any of that, no matter how much you might want to _make_ it about that. It's about a cute little naming scheme idea that people were claiming to be offended by. _That's_ what I find nonsensical.

It's going to _remind you_ of things that offended you? Like so much else on this site--every 4E tag, every 4E mention, every product, every piece of art--doesn't do that already?

I wasn't belittling any offense you might have taken in the past (though you're making it awfully tempting). I wasn't talking _at all_ about any offense you might've felt in the past; you brought that into this, not me. I was talking _specifically_ about people who were actually claiming to be offended by the naming scheme. And if someone's actually going to take offense at the naming scheme of a subscription service like this? Yeah, then I _am_ going to belittle their feelings of offense, and I'm not going to feel ashamed about doing so.

(It's sad that I even have to say this, but... All opinions expressed are my own, spoken as a member of the forums, and should not be taken, formally or informally, as coming from any other source.)


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 2, 2010)

Morrus, my apologies. I didn't intend to hijack your thread, or interrupt whatever stream of useful feedback you were getting. This probably wasn't the place for this.


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## Orius (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> 
> Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?
> 
> ...




I have to agree with Ari.  The front page of the site displays news which often which reflects stuff going on with 4e, we have two 4e fora, even topics in General touch on or fully discuss 4e, the XP tags even have a 4e flavors, and people are worried that 4e based subscription levels are going to shove 4e in their faces?  I ... I just don't get it.  

So what if EN World reflects 4e?  EN World has always reflected the most current edition of the rules.  But even so, it has never ever been exclusive to any one set of the rules.  All editions are on topic here, and the moderators enforce the edition war ban pretty strongly.  Whatever Morrus names the subscription levels is not going to change that.


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## Lanefan (Apr 2, 2010)

How about Commoner level (no sub), Dungeon level (basic sub), and Dragon level (full-ride sub)?

Then at least we could quite literally say the site was supported by Dungeons and Dragons.

Lanefan


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## Mouseferatu (Apr 2, 2010)

Lanefan said:


> How about Commoner level (no sub), Dungeon level (basic sub), and Dragon level (full-ride sub)?
> 
> Then at least we could quite literally say the site was supported by Dungeons and Dragons.




Or we could go with Bystander, Player, and Dungeon Master.


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## Jack99 (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> 
> Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?
> 
> ...




Quoted because it's true.

As for the tiers, name them after dragon age categories or something, that way you might avoid offending anyone. However, in order to achieve that, make sure you use categories that existed prior to 2008.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 2, 2010)

Jack99 said:


> Quoted because it's true.
> 
> As for the tiers, name them after dragon age categories or something, that way you might avoid offending anyone. However, in order to achieve that, make sure you use categories that existed prior to 2008.



Well, we should first check with BADD if that was okay. It's possible that they would find if offensive if non-dragons get the dragon age categories or something. 

I would have never thought, by the way, that people care so much about signatures? I almost never read or see them. 

What's even more sad is, though, is that people don't seem to talk much about what Morrus actually wants to add to this site, and how he wants to improve it.

Gamers Seeking Gamers actually being useful would be cool. (Though I reserve some doubts it will be useful for me, but I hope to be pleasantly surprised.) Working on another Adventure Path in the future (even if that's still far off)? Awesome. People seem to think very highly of WotBS, so a new adventure path is highly appreciated.

I would love to hear more constructive stuff - what else does this site "need" to provide to be more useful for its users (and be possibly worth 6 $ per month to some)? 

I would think that Chat rooms with dice rollers could be great for online gaming. Are there any web-based gametables/map tools available with which one could cooperate to integrate it or access it via the forums?


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## Sammael (Apr 2, 2010)

Displaying 4E news and information (along with information about other games and products) and labeling someone with a tag that links that person to a product he really, really, REALLY doesn't like (to the point where he is "vehemently opposed") is *quite different*. 

Imagine if you are a vegetarian. There is a forum you go to in order to discuss food and nutrition. Then, one day, you decide to support that forum because its owner is struggling financially. You purchase a subscription, and the next thing you see - there's a label "carnivore" next to your name, to indicate that you are helping the site. Cute or offensive? I know I'd be offended.

I do not want to be associated with D&D 4th edition on a permanent basis in any way, shape, or form. It would be cute as an April Fools joke, but seeing a 4E label next to my name every day would tick me off to no end. Judging from a couple of responses above, I'm not the only one.

I'm not going to ascribe motives to anyone at this time, so please, Ari, do the same.


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## Sammael (Apr 2, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> What's even more sad is, though, is that people don't seem to talk much about what Morrus actually wants to add to this site, and how he wants to improve it.



This is because we have no idea how Morrus wants to improve it, other than the Gamers Seeking Gamers thing which I personally have no use for (my gaming circle includes about 20 people and there is never a shortage of people to game with; additionally, I dislike gaming with strangers very much due to several bad experiences from the past).

New adventure paths? Neat, but it was sort of a given once the first adventure path is made available in its entirety. Still, very nice - I never run published adventures as written, but I do use them for idea mining.


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## Jack99 (Apr 2, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Well, we should first check with BADD if that was okay. It's possible that they would find if offensive if non-dragons get the dragon age categories or something.



 Funny with a not so slight hint of sarcasm. My favorite kind of comments


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## DaveMage (Apr 2, 2010)

Yeah, as a 4E hater, I gag a bit every time I hear references to the game too.

So, as a means not to annoy the 4E haters that come here, (or, more importantly, to not put up any kind of emotional barrier to them getting a subscription), I suggest not associating the 4E character level groups (or any other 4E terminology) to payment levels.


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## Piratecat (Apr 2, 2010)

That's good to know, and something we might have missed. Thank you.


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## BryonD (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> You don't like 4E? Fine. You don't like D&D at all? Fine; there's still a place for you on this site.
> 
> But you're going to be offended by it? Honestly and truly _offended_?



Clearly the 4E fans are the level heads and everyone else is unreasonable and reactionary.  

Thus, it is easy to solve this problem.
This site was founded in the OGL and 3E.  As an homage to that history, the tiers should be named in a manner that references 3E.  Everyone will be happy.


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## Fifth Element (Apr 2, 2010)

See below before responding to this post, please. ~ PCat



Sammael said:


> Displaying 4E news and information (along with information about other games and products) and labeling someone with a tag that links that person to a product he really, really, REALLY doesn't like (to the point where he is "vehemently opposed") is *quite different*.



You're already labeled as a Lvl 2 goblin sharpshooter. That's a 4E reference, and you've implicitly supported it with your subscription.



Sammael said:


> Imagine if you are a vegetarian. There is a forum you go to in order to discuss food and nutrition. Then, one day, you decide to support that forum because its owner is struggling financially. You purchase a subscription, and the next thing you see - there's a label "carnivore" next to your name, to indicate that you are helping the site. Cute or offensive? I know I'd be offended.



Are you actually comparing the reasons people choose to be vegetarian to the reasons people choose one version of D&D over another? That the difference between 3E player and 4E is players is anywhere remotely as significant as the difference between vegetarian and carnivore?



DaveMage said:


> Yeah, as a 4E hater, I gag a bit every time I hear references to the game too.



I'll never understand this. There are hundreds of games I don't like and won't play. But the fact that they exist (and that other people enjoy them) gives me not the slightest discomfort.



BryonD said:


> Clearly the 4E fans are the level heads and everyone else is unreasonable and reactionary.



Are you honestly suggesting that if Morrus wanted to name the tiers, I don't know, after 3E prestige classes and some 4E fan came on and said "I find that offensive! Stop it!" that he wouldn't be (quite rightly) called out by 3E fans?

D&D is not serious business, guys.


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## fireinthedust (Apr 2, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Limiting sigs to subscribers - a feature that I tend to find distracting - seemed to be the right choice.
> - Russ





I use the Sig specifically to hold my PC sheets, and those of characters in games I run.  It's an important feature for my PBP work, because I know I can have access to characters whenever I want to see them *without* having them on a specific harddrive.  
      The reason is that I don't always use the same computer, and I have three jobs to keep me mobile.  I might have five minutes to post something, then hours where I can't get at a computer.  I don't want lag-time for players, or for GMs in games I'm in.

[sblock=example of what I mean]  Strength 5, Dex 4, Con 6, Int 2, Wis 2, Charisma 18!!!
This goes in my or players' sigs, then I check it when I check my games, and if I need to I can roll dice immediately.  Otherwise I have to wait to get home from work, take care of the mrs, etc., then *maybe* post something.
[/sblock]

I get what you're saying, and I've been wanting to subscribe, but one of the things that got me hooked on these boards was the games.  I think new members, who will one day be subscribers, would like that.

So I don't want to limit PBP players to subscribers only.  If I want to run games, I need the Sigs as a tool.

Does that make sense?


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## grodog (Apr 2, 2010)

Sammael said:


> Mustrum_Ridcully said:
> 
> 
> > What's even more sad is, though, is that people don't seem to talk much about what Morrus actually wants to add to this site, and how he wants to improve it.
> ...




Not entirely true:  and this is exactly why I was mentioning communication earlier.  Russ mentioned both the Gamers Seeking Gamers idea as well as online gaming tools at the site, but the latter seems to keep getting lost in the rest of the noise in the thread.  



Sammael said:


> I would love to hear more constructive stuff - what else does this site "need" to provide to be more useful for its users (and be possibly worth 6 $ per month to some)?
> 
> I would think that Chat rooms with dice rollers could be great for online gaming. Are there any web-based gametables/map tools available with which one could cooperate to integrate it or access it via the forums?




Along with chat rooms and dice rolling, I suggest some robust logging features to allow folks to save sessions for later reference (although I'm pretty sure someone else already mentioned that above, too).

Other possible value-adding ideas:

- campaign web sites, wikis, and blogs, with RSS feeds/email notifications for subscription updates
- robust tagging and tag clouds to help folks find things even if they don't have search ;D
- campaign management tools:  storage space for maps, PCs, etc.
- robust OGL and d20 content databases, to help folks decide which version of the ranger they want to run, etc.
- adventures, classes, races, monsters, spells, magic items, and other in-game content
- start publishing ENWorld magazine again, and get it back into stores (along with WotBS if it's not already)
- slice and dice the forums to offer different views/dashboards:  I'd love a widget to let me track all of Sep's or PC's rules-oriented-posts, for example (and while the tags do this a little bit, they rely on folks actually doing the tagging, and then knowing that the URL is still available; having a widget to show me a user's posts containing a specific keyword or whatever would be pretty cool)

Several of these ideas are really in different areas (publishing vs. forum/community resources vs. campaign resources, for example), and I wouldn't necessarily do them all, all at once:  focus on the community and the features that will enable your near-term features/vision (Gamers Seeking Gamers and online game tools), and branch out from there after you have some credible capabilities.  Ideally they'd be credible capabilities that were unique to ENWorld.

That's what I'm thinking, this morning anyway


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## Piratecat (Apr 2, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Are you actually comparing the reasons people choose to be vegetarian to the reasons people choose one version of D&D over another? That the difference between 3E player and 4E is players is anywhere remotely as significant as the difference between vegetarian and carnivore?



Give it a rest, please. It's not anyone's job to change peoples' opinions, especially on something that they may feel very strongly about. We don't want this thread to become sidetracked.

Thank you.


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## Princesskeyblade (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Or we could go with Bystander, Player, and Dungeon Master.




I actually REALLY like this. This is much better than the other names mentioned. 

I will continue to support ENworld despite what the levels are called. However, whether or not it warrants a $6 membership fee is yet to be determined. Maybe revitalizing the site will draw me back in a bit. 

I also love the idea of having a chat room with a dice roller.


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2010)

grodog said:


> - slice and dice the forums to offer different views/dashboards: I'd love a widget to let me track all of Sep's or PC's rules-oriented-posts, for example (and while the tags do this a little bit, they rely on folks actually doing the tagging, and then knowing that the URL is still available; having a widget to show me a user's posts containing a specific keyword or whatever would be pretty cool)




I'll tell you what I'd love to be able to do - but vBulletin is several years off being able to do this yet:  allowing users to drag the actual forums into the order they want, straight from the forum index page.  Some blog software allows users to drag content boxes around.  So you could literally customise EN World's forum priorities the way you want it.

But, like I said, the software is some years off that sort of functionality.  It would be very cool, though.


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## Wicht (Apr 2, 2010)

You, know, until this morning, reading this thread, I didn't even realize the experience point descriptors were 4e based.  I guess I just don't know enough about 4e to realize that the goblin sharpshooter is really edition specific.  But its general enough not to really bother me one way or another.  

There's a careful balance that has to be walked when running a business, the balance between pleasing self and pleasing the most number of customers possible.  If you're not happy with what you're doing, no matter how profitable, you will not enjoy your business.  If not enough customers are happy, you will not have a profitable business.  The naming of support tiers may seem minor, but if, rightly or wrongly, it turns enough people away, its detrimental to the business.  I want Morrus to succeed and thus I chimed in that I thought the names were a mistake; just annoying enough to be irritating, though mildly so.  People should not be called out for letting it be known that they think this to be a mistake.  You never berate customers for complaining if you want to keep their business.  

As for what I want from ENWorld.  I want a place to talk about Dungeons and Dragons with a large community of like-minded, creative individuals.  That's worth $3 a month from me.  I'm really not sure what else I would pay for.  Though the free downloads are a nice bonus, I would pay the $3 regardless (so long as I can) because I like the existence of the community.


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## darjr (Apr 2, 2010)

The threads and forums in the new software are all exported to RSS with embeded links. A fancy RSS web based reader could probably be used to rearrange things to a great degree.


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## Sammael (Apr 2, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> You're already labeled as a Lvl 2 goblin sharpshooter. That's a 4E reference, and you've implicitly supported it with your subscription.



I've had goblin sharpshooters back in 1998, long before even 3e, much less 4e. That reference is edition-free.


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## TheYeti1775 (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> ...snip...



Some people have stronger feelings than others about it.  It isn't uncommon.  Considering a good portion of folks that frequent this board are die-hard non-4E, you have to take that into consideration.  Especially from Morrus's POV, he is turning the board from a donation supported enterprise into a business venture.  Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise.  I'm happy it's self-supporting currently.



Morrus said:


> I'll tell you what I'd love to be able to do - but vBulletin is several years off being able to do this yet:  allowing users to drag the actual forums into the order they want, straight from the forum index page.  Some blog software allows users to drag content boxes around.  So you could literally customise EN World's forum priorities the way you want it.
> 
> But, like I said, the software is some years off that sort of functionality.  It would be very cool, though.




Would love that ability.  As there are only a few I check on here anymore.


Far as naming the tiers.
Keep it simple.  Don't use the 4E tiers.  
BECMI is a good idea as well as the Bystander, Player, DM one.
I like the second as a better feel for it.

Far as the Experience naming and all.  Can't that be controlled with Skins?
You could honestly create several Skins for all the users.
Examples: 
4E - Fighter = All the experience is labeled as a 4E fighter name levels.  Icons shown are swords and shields.
3E - Fighter = same as the 4E Fighter just using terms for 3E.
2E etc
1e etc
Can be done for each class generic.  
These skins could also be the addition for the $$ tiers.
Also with skins I believe you can reorder the forums with them as well.  You can't move them around but the order they appear can be changed.  So a 3E player could have the 3E specific forums appear above the 4E and 2E/1E/BECMI forums.
Just keep a few basic skins for those of us that aren't paying you.

Play by Post Forums: Your Epic/Paragon/Whatever tier can have their own areas.  Figure a way to have a dice roller for them to access.

I know chat rooms are possible with Vbull, I'm not sure if you can have multiple chat rooms though.  Never looked into that.  If each forum could have their own with archives I would bet many PbP'ers would jump on it for their games especially if there was a dice-roller.


Have a few other ideas rattling around, but I got some work to do right now.


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> he is turning the board from a donation supported enterprise into a business venture. Don't kid yourself into thinking otherwise.




_Has_ turned, not turning.  I ain't exactly hiding it!


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## Fifth Element (Apr 2, 2010)

Wicht said:


> People should not be called out for letting it be known that they think this to be a mistake.  You never berate customers for complaining if you want to keep their business.



Very true, and note that Morrus and the admins are not berating anyone. It's only fellow customers doing that.


----------



## BryonD (Apr 2, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Are you honestly suggesting that if Morrus wanted to name the tiers, I don't know, after 3E prestige classes and some 4E fan came on and said "I find that offensive! Stop it!" that he wouldn't be (quite rightly) called out by 3E fans?



I'm not even dishonestly suggesting it.  I'm not suggesting it in any way at all.

I'm pointing out, as you also easily predict in your reply, that the shoe would fit just as poorly on the other foot.


----------



## Obryn (Apr 2, 2010)

I pay my $3/month because I value the community and want to support it, not because I get something out of subscribing.  It's like pledging to my local NPR affiliate.  I could care less what the payment tiers are named, though I do find the discussion of it hilarious.  It's like school board politics, if you know that old chestnut.

-O


----------



## Oryan77 (Apr 2, 2010)

Wicht said:


> I didn't even realize the experience point descriptors were 4e based.




Ok, I should have asked this a long time ago....

Can someone either explain to me the whole XP thing here, or point me to where I can read about it?

I'm a little embarrassed to say, but when the XP thing was first implemented here, I could not figure out how to send someone XP. It also took me a while to figure out that I could read a message that I received for getting XP.

I still can't seem to find a way to send XP and now people are talking about an XP title....I don't see any XP titles 

Was the XP feature converted to be a subscriber feature only tool? Is that why I'm blind and apparently half stupid? And if anyone calls me full stupid, I'm going to put a world of hurt on something weaker than me.

There, I asked. Laugh and point fingers at me all you want!


----------



## Obryn (Apr 2, 2010)

It's a reputation system, basically, that only allows positive rep.  There were posts about it in Meta back when it was implemented.

When someone likes what you posted, they can click the balance scales under your post, send you a quick comment, and give you XP.  You can read the XP comments on your control panel.

The levels accrue when you have more XP, pretty much.  You also get more "dots" for every 5 or 6 levels.

-O


----------



## Wicht (Apr 2, 2010)

Obryn said:


> It's a reputation system, basically, that only allows positive rep.  There were posts about it in Meta back when it was implemented.
> 
> When someone likes what you posted, they can click the balance scales under your post, send you a quick comment, and give you XP.  You can read the XP comments on your control panel.
> 
> ...




More specifically, the scales at the bottom left of each post are for giving XP.  The green dot under post count reflects the level achieved.  

It took me a while to figure it out too.


----------



## Oryan77 (Apr 2, 2010)

Obryn said:


> It's a reputation system, basically, that only allows positive rep.  There were posts about it in Meta back when it was implemented.
> 
> When someone likes what you posted, they can click the balance scales under your post, send you a quick comment, and give you XP.  You can read the XP comments on your control panel.
> 
> ...




Wow, what do ya know, there's a balance scale below our names 
Thanks for pointing that out. 

Shows how much I read the meta forum. Which I just read it yesterday for the first time in years.



Wicht said:


> More specifically, the scales at the bottom left of each post are for giving XP.  The green dot under post count reflects the level achieved.
> 
> It took me a while to figure it out too.




Oh THOSE dots. That's what that thing is for? I thought it meant the user was online haha. Dang, I feel smarter now. Thanks guys.

Crap, one more question then....I'm just curious since everyone is talking about the titles being 4e related (not a big deal to me even though I play 3.5). But is there a list of what all the titles are for the XP? I'm just curious to see what the names are.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 2, 2010)

RangerWickett said:


> ...It could be something as simple as a second line on the User Title, perhaps with a colorful highlight.
> 
> Thornir Alekeg
> D&D expatriate
> ...



 Hey!  I have it on good authority that my parents were not drunk, just a little tipsy that night.


----------



## Mark (Apr 2, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> Wow, what do ya know, there's a balance scale below our names





I'm not sure you quite understand yet.  Try clicking on mine and adding a comment.  You'll get the feel for it that way.


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 2, 2010)

deleted


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 2, 2010)

With all the geek rage I see about the subscription tier naming scheme, I have a guaranteed money winner for Morrus.  Use the following names:  

$6 - Gygax/Arneson
$3 - Dragon
Free - Drizzt

People will flock to subscribe to remove the association to Drizzt.  

Now *that's* how extortion is done.


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, my God. Really, people?
> 
> Of all the things in this world, or on the internet, or on this messageboard, that you could _possibly_ worry about, you're going to get _offended_ if Morrus names the subscription tiers after the tiers of 4E?
> 
> ...




You, sir, are my hero.

My reaction was pretty much identical to yours.

Anyway, I don't care what they are named.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Apr 2, 2010)

BryonD said:


> Clearly the 4E fans are the level heads and everyone else is unreasonable and reactionary.




It's not about being a 4E fan or not. I think I was pretty clear about that.



> Thus, it is easy to solve this problem.
> This site was founded in the OGL and 3E.  As an homage to that history, the tiers should be named in a manner that references 3E.  Everyone will be happy.




If that's how Morrus wanted to go--or, for that matter, if he wanted to draw names from 2E, or 1E, or BECMI, or Magic, or White Wolf, or Shadowrun, or Call of Cthulhu, or Monopoly, or Candyland, or Texas Hold 'em, or rock/paper/scissors--I'd be fine with that. I might think some of the choices were a little silly, but I certainly wouldn't find any of them offensive.

Actually, I kind of like the idea of pulling titles from a children's boardgame, just to be goofy about it, but that's just me.


----------



## grodog (Apr 2, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I'll tell you what I'd love to be able to do - but vBulletin is several years off being able to do this yet:  allowing users to drag the actual forums into the order they want, straight from the forum index page.  Some blog software allows users to drag content boxes around.  So you could literally customise EN World's forum priorities the way you want it.
> 
> But, like I said, the software is some years off that sort of functionality.  It would be very cool, though.




Regardless of whatever the front-end of vBulletin can do, there are plenty of portal packages out there that can do exactly what you're talking about:  you set them up, and then they drive the user experience from your current vBulletin back-end.  Some are even open source, too (like, say, Liferay, among others).

edit:  And I'm apparently a Hobgoblin Soldier Level 3, although I'm not sure if that mean's the HS is level 3, or if I'm actually 3rd level on ENWorld (I can't imagine that I've gotten sufficient XP to be 2nd level yet, much less third....).


----------



## Nifft (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Actually, I kind of like the idea of pulling titles from a children's boardgame, just to be goofy about it, but that's just me.



 It is not just you, my goofy brother. We, the goofy, must stand together on this vital issue!

I shall repeat my proposal, because repetition is very convincing and people like it:
- NPC (non-paying character)
- Character ($3, Community Supporter)
- Electrum Member ($more, like "Gold Member" but half the price)
- Ultraviolet Clearance ($most, I could tell you, but ...)

Cheers, -- N


----------



## darjr (Apr 2, 2010)

NPC, Character, DM?


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> It's not about being a 4E fan or not. I think I was pretty clear about that.



Yeah, you were pretty clear about making sure to say that.


----------



## Squizzle (Apr 2, 2010)

Accusing someone of having an advocacy agenda because they disagree with you is almost always preposterous. Accusing someone of having an advocacy agenda because they disagree with you about using the terminology of a game in a completely unobtrusive fashion, in a venue that supports ample discussion of said game, is _always_ preposterous.

(And accusing Mouse of being a passive-aggressive  is double-always preposterous.)


----------



## pawsplay (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Oh, please. I'm not talking about any of that. It's done; play the game you want to play. I'm glad you've got Pathfinder and other 3E compatible stuff available. Seriously.
> 
> But this isn't about any of that, no matter how much you might want to _make_ it about that. It's about a cute little naming scheme idea that people were claiming to be offended by. _That's_ what I find nonsensical.
> 
> ...




I could respond to this, and if I did, I might be reprimanded for the manner in which I respond. So I think I'll just skip right to the point where I don't read this site for a few days so I don't encounter this kind of attitude again until I've come to a better place of acceptance of how other people choose to comport themselves in what has usually been a friendly environment.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 2, 2010)

darjr said:


> NPC, Character, DM?



 Not everyone prefers being a DM.

On the other hand, everyone would prefer to have an electrum member.

"_Yes, everyone_", -- N


----------



## Sammael (Apr 2, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Not everyone prefers being a DM.
> 
> On the other hand, everyone would prefer to have an electrum member.
> 
> "_Yes, everyone_", -- N



Electrum member FTW!


----------



## DaveMage (Apr 2, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> I'll never understand this. There are hundreds of games I don't like and won't play. But the fact that they exist (and that other people enjoy them) gives me not the slightest discomfort.




And that's how it is for me too with all the other RPGs that I don't like.

But, with 4E, I have issues.

It's not logical.  It's emotional.

And, to be clear, my issue is with the game itself and other various changes made to the game/product line by the WotC designers and product team.  I have no bad feelings towards the people here (and elsewhere) that are fans of 4E (though, I admit, I remain perplexed that people who have been D&D fans throughout the editions could be a fan considering how the game was changed - but that's a topic for another thread).


----------



## BryonD (Apr 2, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> It's not about being a 4E fan or not. I think I was pretty clear about that.



 You clearly defined the target of your comments as excluding fans of 4E.  I simply expanded your comment to accurately cover everyone.




> If that's how Morrus wanted to go--or, for that matter, if he wanted to draw names from 2E, or 1E, or BECMI, or Magic, or White Wolf, or Shadowrun, or Call of Cthulhu, or Monopoly, or Candyland, or Texas Hold 'em, or rock/paper/scissors--I'd be fine with that.



And I as well.  I don't really care if they use 4E.  

I'm not singling you out as someone who would rant.  But you are throwing barbs at the "you don't like 4e" crowd.  You didn't single out exceptions or clarify and neither did I.  

Both sides have reactionary groups.  I'm take issue with you painting everyone not pro-4e with a broad brush and I'm take issue with you presenting the impression that one side is different than the other here.


----------



## tuxgeo (Apr 2, 2010)

*ENWorld Reputation Levels (limited list)*



Oryan77 said:


> Wow, what do ya know, there's a balance scale below our names
> Thanks for pointing that out.
> 
> Shows how much I read the meta forum. Which I just read it yesterday for the first time in years. < snip >
> ...



I have compiled an incomplete list over the past several months. I am sure that Morrus and the Admins have the proper answer. Anyway, here's mine: 
[Two examples of having no Level listed] 
-- " can only hope to improve "   (was awarded to one user a while ago) 
 -- " has a little shameless behaviour in the past " (was awarded to one user a while ago) 

 1  Kobold Slinger  
 2  Goblin Sharpshooter 
 3  Hobgoblin Soldier 
 4  Orc Berserker  
 5  Gnoll Huntmaster 
 6  Bugbear Strangler 
 7  Snaketongue Initiate

The numbers match the descriptions: All Level 1 users are Kobold Slingers, etc. I started at Level 2 because I had registered before the system was put into place. Newer registrants apparently start at Level 1. HTH.


----------



## Kzach (Apr 3, 2010)

darjr said:


> NPC, Character, DM?




That's a good division that remains D&D (other systems use GM) but system neutral and also has the keen advantage of being far more representative of the actual population.

Casual members are more likely not to be playing very often. Players who play regularly and therefore have an ongoing interest would more likely buy a base subscription, whereas DM's are the most likely to want a 'full' subscription.

In addition, this is something that you really want to keep very simple due to reasons of KISS. Having more than three tiers will get confusing fast, not only to members but to mods who have to answer membership questions. It will also keep it easier on the accounting and maintenance side to have three clear and concise divisions.


----------



## Henry (Apr 3, 2010)

Hey, I like the NPC / Character / DM thing. Who wouldn't want to donate a piddly 3 bucks a month to NOT be called an NPC any more?


----------



## Flatus Maximus (Apr 3, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Not everyone prefers being a DM.
> 
> On the other hand, everyone would prefer to have an electrum member.
> 
> "_Yes, everyone_", -- N




[beavis and butthead]
Uh-huhuhuhuhuh, he said "member," uh-huhuhuhuhuh.
[/beavis and butthead]

This next song is a Cliff Richard's song....


----------



## Hammerhead (Apr 3, 2010)

Kzach said:


> That's a good division that remains D&D (other systems use GM) but system neutral and also has the keen advantage of being far more representative of the actual population.
> 
> Casual members are more likely not to be playing very often. Players who play regularly and therefore have an ongoing interest would more likely buy a base subscription, whereas DM's are the most likely to want a 'full' subscription.
> 
> In addition, this is something that you really want to keep very simple due to reasons of KISS. Having more than three tiers will get confusing fast, not only to members but to mods who have to answer membership questions. It will also keep it easier on the accounting and maintenance side to have three clear and concise divisions.




That seems like quite the assumption: correlating a user's willingness and ability to subscribe to EN World with how often they play D&D and what role at the table they prefer. 

And about MF somehow excluding 4e fans from his rant: I don't recall any 4e fans deliberating complaining about any proposal for subscription tiers that uses older terminology (except in sarcasm). If they haven't appeared yet, why would you bother to address them? *Just in case* they show up?


----------



## Dire Bare (Apr 3, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> I could respond to this, and if I did, I might be reprimanded for the manner in which I respond. So I think I'll just skip right to the point where I don't read this site for a few days so I don't encounter this kind of attitude again until I've come to a better place of acceptance of how other people choose to comport themselves in what has usually been a friendly environment.




And I don't know exactly how to respond to this.  The offended attitude kinda blows my mind.

That people don't care for 4e or for WotC's recent business decisions I can understand and respect.  I can even understand folks getting a bit emotional, because, let's face it, this is not just a game to many of us . . . it's a lifestyle hobby.  But being offended by something so innocuous as naming subscription tiers Heroic and Paragon (and maybe Epic!) . . . and then to be further offended by folks showing exasperation and incredulity . . .

If THIS gets people upset, I'm glad we have a no politics and religion rule!

I imagine that folks who would be truly bothered by this are in a loud minority, but I suppose if I was Morrus I'd roll my eyes and choose a different naming scheme to keep the uproar down.  I like the idea above of Basic and Expert!!!  Which also allows for Companions, Masters, and Immortal tiers.  Unless that offends someone who has flashbacks to TSR's separation of D&D and AD&D in the 80s . . .


----------



## Dire Bare (Apr 3, 2010)

Hammerhead said:


> And about MF somehow excluding 4e fans from his rant: I don't recall any 4e fans deliberating complaining about any proposal for subscription tiers that uses older terminology (except in sarcasm). If they haven't appeared yet, why would you bother to address them? *Just in case* they show up?




The $6 Tier could be named the Prestige Class to appease the offended.  I would be incredibly surprised if 4e fans cared or even noticed.


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 3, 2010)

Why not use something like: Initiate, Wizard and Archmage? or how about: Kobold, Giant and Dragon? Both fairly edition neutral?


----------



## Mouseferatu (Apr 3, 2010)

BryonD said:


> I'm not singling you out as someone who would rant.  But you are throwing barbs at the "you don't like 4e" crowd.  You didn't single out exceptions or clarify and neither did I.




Actually, I did. I very deliberately said, this isn't about people liking or not liking the game. It's about people taking literal offense at the idea of the tiered naming system. I hardly think that's representative of the entirety, or even the majority, of people who dislike 4E.

And if that didn't come across, I honestly apologize. I thought it was clear.


----------



## Kzach (Apr 3, 2010)

Hammerhead said:


> That seems like quite the assumption: correlating a user's willingness and ability to subscribe to EN World with how often they play D&D and what role at the table they prefer.




Huh?

It's a pretty well established fact, actually. Over the years there have been literally hundreds of polls addressing various aspects of people's depth of involvement in the hobby as it correlates to their involvement in these forums. It's fairly common to find that the most active participants in the forums are more often than not DM's.

And even if this wasn't backed up by years of polls returning similar results over and over, it's simply logical to assume that DM's tend to be the most active and involved in the hobby and forums like this that help them become better DM's.

The simple fact of the matter is that DM's get more out of sites like this than players do. That's not to say there is no value for a player, but to say that there is more value for a DM.

Is there some reason you wish to take offence to this statement?


----------



## Hellzon (Apr 3, 2010)

Jack99 said:


> Why not use something like: Initiate, Wizard and Archmage? or how about: Kobold, Giant and Dragon? Both fairly edition neutral?




Giant, Drow, Queen?

(And good riddance to sigs. People just use them to pimp blogs and quote people anyway.)


----------



## Longtooth Studios (Apr 3, 2010)

*No problem*

The signature seems to be a feature better used by members of the community like myself who benefit from the added traffic to my blog. Morris and Enworld have made a big difference in my experience as a gammer and as a producer of gaming products. 
I don't have a problem paying a premium to continue to enjoy this privilege and make it easier for others to find my site.


----------



## Belorin (Apr 3, 2010)

Hellzon said:


> Giant, Drow, Queen?
> 
> (And good riddance to sigs. People just use them to pimp blogs and quote people anyway.)




Novice, Initiate, Adept?

Bel


----------



## UngainlyTitan (Apr 3, 2010)

Copper, Silver, Gold! 

Though I cannot believe some people are throwing a snit over what posters are suggesting for the subscription levels. It is not as if their are official suggestions.


----------



## Syunsuke (Apr 3, 2010)

How about something like Gavosykilian, Sophynteer and Farmitrax?
(What they mean is top secret for 6$ sbuscriber only )


----------



## BryonD (Apr 3, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Actually, I did. I very deliberately said, this isn't about people liking or not liking the game. It's about people taking literal offense at the idea of the tiered naming system. I hardly think that's representative of the entirety, or even the majority, of people who dislike 4E.
> 
> And if that didn't come across, I honestly apologize. I thought it was clear.



Fair enough.  
I would ask you to go back and look at the quote I replied to.  You expressly and specifically called out people who don't like 4e.  That is what I replied to.
You didn't mean it that way, fine.  That's cool.

I 100% agree that getting offended by naming tiers is stupid.


----------



## SkidAce (Apr 3, 2010)

Have sigs been modified already?

I noticed my MTG "what color are you" image doesn't show.  

Maybe it's just an internet glitch.


----------



## tuxgeo (Apr 3, 2010)

Belorin said:


> Novice, Initiate, Adept?
> 
> Bel



Mmm -- how could a Novice not _*be*_ an Initiate? To "initiate" is to "start," and that's where the Novice is on a progression of expertise: at the start. 

At the same time, the "Novice, Acolyte, Adept" progression is identifiably 4E, which might make it less than ideal as a set of EN World membership tiers. 

Might "Member, Donor, Patron" be better?


----------



## Nifft (Apr 3, 2010)

tuxgeo said:


> I have compiled an incomplete list over the past several months. I am sure that Morrus and the Admins have the proper answer. Anyway, here's mine:
> 
> 1  Kobold Slinger
> 2  Goblin Sharpshooter
> ...



 8 - Shadar-Kai Warrior

Cheers, -- N


----------



## crazy_cat (Apr 3, 2010)

How about Registered User, Community Supporter, and Community Patron or just another Community Supporter but with a different graphic or other badge to identify the differnt level of supporterness.


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 3, 2010)

deleted


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 3, 2010)

deleted


----------



## Tortoise (Apr 3, 2010)

I've attahed a form people can fill out if they feel the overwhelming need to express their feelings of betrayal at the very mention of a tier nameing scheme that doesn't take their personal sensitivities into account.

Enjoy.

*Moderator's note:

You see, ladies and gents, this is precisely the way to go about making an argument nastier and longer lasting - by being insulting to the opinions of others.  We expect folks on EN World to show some decent manners, and have the good sense to not be a jerk.  Please, folks, let's not continue on the insulting line.

(Oh, and I've removed the attachment)*


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 3, 2010)

deleted


----------



## Oryan77 (Apr 3, 2010)

Just use Planescape Faction terminology then:

Namer, Factor, Factol

The planes are used in every edition of D&D. If you don't use factions, then now would be a good time to start. If you don't use the planes in D&D, then there is no reason you can't change your campaign setting. After you have changed your game to reflect these new tiers, nobody will have anything to complain about!


----------



## Mark (Apr 3, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> Have you no shame?...





If you submit that question through the form found by clicking the scales below my name, our representatives will contact you with an answer within that time it takes for you to use the form yet again to send your thanks.


----------



## Nonei (Apr 3, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> Or maybe Minion, Adventurer, Immortal (or Demi-God)?




Commoner, Adventurer, Demi-God?


I will also second the suggestion of NPC, player, Dungeon Master 
(although I acknowledge the person saying that assumes someone wants to be DM)


----------



## Herobizkit (Apr 4, 2010)

El Mahdi said:


> How about Apprentice, Journeyman, and Master?



I like this a lot.  Chalk up a vote for it, if someone's keeping track.


----------



## Hellzon (Apr 4, 2010)

Nonei said:


> Commoner, Adventurer, Demi-God?




That reminds me: Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 4, 2010)

grodog said:


> Not entirely true:  and this is exactly why I was mentioning communication earlier.  Russ mentioned both the Gamers Seeking Gamers idea as well as online gaming tools at the site, but the latter seems to keep getting lost in the rest of the noise in the thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By the way, how is GoogleWave doing? 

I've heard alternative systems exist? Maybe one could use that to support online games? The nice thing is that you basically mix the benefits of Chat and Forum. You have persistance, but you can also share information.

Of course, one could just use GoogleWave and not use an EN World specific solution.


----------



## Shemeska (Apr 4, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> Just use Planescape Faction terminology then:
> 
> Namer, Factor, Factol
> 
> The planes are used in every edition of D&D. If you don't use factions, then now would be a good time to start. If you don't use the planes in D&D, then there is no reason you can't change your campaign setting. After you have changed your game to reflect these new tiers, nobody will have anything to complain about!




[sarcasm.maybe]

*guffaw* I demand a special user title of 'King of the Crosstrade'. And I reserve the right to laugh at you and throw you into the bear baiting pit at the Fortune's Wheel if you talk about the 4e planes rather than the 1e/2e/3e ones.

[/sarcasm.sorta kinda]

More seriously though, something edition neutral and even game neutral would be for the best.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 4, 2010)

> Well, as I mentioned the boards are now self-sustaining, and I now need to facilitate growth - not in terms of size, but in quality.




I think you might be getting cocky about that self-sustaining thing.  I don't see how you know that people are less likely to cancel the $3 subscriptions than yearly subscriptions when (IIRC) this offer has been running for less than a year.  Especially when it's the first time that you really made an appeal for subscriptions to support Enworld (at least since I started coming here, all there was was the "new server -- nuke from orbit!" thing).  That first-time response might not be sustainable.  

If I were you I'd bank that money and work on retention rather than spending it on expansion.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Apr 4, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Of course, one could just use GoogleWave and not use an EN World specific solution.



I'm using Wave as online communication and information repository for my table-top M&M game, and it's buggy.  If it gets that far, it's going to be a great tool for roleplaying -- which is why they invented it, right? -- but as of right now I don't think I'd trust it with an active online game.


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 4, 2010)

Flatus Maximus said:


> This next song is a Cliff Richard's song....




No, I was away from my computer enjoying the awesome Spring weather we are having.



Jack99 said:


> Why not use something like: Initiate, Wizard and Archmage? or how about: Kobold, Giant and Dragon? Both fairly edition neutral?




I always liked the WHFRP dwarven careers of Giant Slayer and Dragon Slayer. Those titles would pertain to a vast array of fantasy RPGs.

Edit: Remove mean-spirited comment.


----------



## Mark (Apr 4, 2010)

oops, double post?


----------



## blargney the second (Apr 4, 2010)

Some feature ideas for tiered subscribers:
1) Increasingly large ignore lists. (users, threads, forums, entire editions/subjects, etc.  Could also affect the maximum number of ignorable objects.)
2) Increasingly large and complicated sigs.
3) The ability to turn off lower tier sigs. (necessary if others are paying for sigs)
4) Increasing access to EN Publishing products.
5) Access to reciprocal partnerships (ie Kobold Quarterly, Wolfgang's projects, etc)
6) Private areas (not that kind).  I'd love to have a place here to store campaign info.  Higher tiers could allow more guests.
7) Some way to make threads attract a bit more attention.
8) Unified on-site game resources.  The number of times I've lamented to myself the lack of an NPC/monster builder on this site...

I hope this helps!
-blarg

ps- One of the coolest signs I have ever seen on the wall of a small restaurant: "I'm sorry, my friends, I must charge you money because my enemies won't shop here."


----------



## Gog (Apr 4, 2010)

If you will seperate the off topic and media forums I'll subscribe right now. I understand why it was done,  I just really don't like the mis mash look of it in media.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 5, 2010)

> 1 Kobold Slinger
> 2 Goblin Sharpshooter
> 3 Hobgoblin Soldier
> 4 Orc Berserker
> ...




10 - Dragonborn Gladiator

I don't know what 9 is, though. I'm gonna give Nifft some XP and let's find out! 

I think the level names are fun. I don't mind that they're tied to 4e. It's _really_ not worth mentioning for me.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Apr 5, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> 10 - Dragonborn Gladiator
> 
> I don't know what 9 is, though. I'm gonna give Nifft some XP and let's find out!
> 
> I think the level names are fun. I don't mind that they're tied to 4e. It's _really_ not worth mentioning for me.




I hereby offer to accept enough xp to make me level 9 to find out......


----------



## Maxboy (Apr 5, 2010)

ardoughter said:


> Copper, Silver, Gold!
> .




This is a good one


----------



## JediSoth (Apr 5, 2010)

Just a few thoughts, in no particular order.

Removal of sigs is something I'm sort of "meh" about. I use my sig to identify my role in the community, not that many people really care. It's always bad form to suddenly start charging for something that we've always had, or even to start charging for functionality we used to have. But, in the end, it won't really change much for me. If I really, really want that information in my posts and I don't want to pony up $3/mo or $6/mo for the privilege (whatever it may end up being), then I can always cut & paste a few lines of boilerplate text into my posts if I feel the need. That's what I used to do in the old days.

I would probably use a Gamers Finding Gamers feature, though I'm not sure if I would pay for such a thing (I can name at least two websites that offer it for free and an additional two message boards that have forums for that purpose). I suppose it depends on the price point that feature were offered at. Free would be great. I would probably even pay $3/mo. for such a feature, assuming there was some way of finding out how many people were registered in my area before signing up.

I read the columns when I remember to, but my bookmark points straight to the forums so I usually skip the main page. I probably would not take advantage of anything like the War of Burning Sky; I have at least 6 full adventure paths I've yet to use, plus year and years of other materials for RPGs I can only dream of having time to take advantage of.

I care about the names for subscriber tiers, but not enough to not subscribe if I don't like them. I would just roll my eyes and go one with my life. Though, if asked for an opinion, I would vote for something leaning more generic (Red Shirt, Supporting Character, Protagonist  ) and less towards specifically referencing a particular game (like Heroic, Paragon, and Epic, for example).

Skinning the site for subscribers is a cool idea. It's the kind of candy  that entices customers. Especially if you have multiple skins allowing  people to show support for games they like.

As far as the prices go, in addition to the monthly rate, it would be nice to have an option for paying for a year or more upfront. I hate the book keeping involved on my end to remember to deduct $3 a month from account. The people who aren't going to want to drop $36 or $60 at one time will continue to use the monthly recurring subscription option, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to pay it in a lump sum then not have to worry about it. It's perfectly acceptable to send out reminders when the subscription is going to expire. Maybe at 1 month, 2 weeks, the day it expires, then a week after it expires.

Of course, with my post-count to account-age ratio, I'm probably not the target audience here. I exist, a few people actually know who I am, but I'd wager most people here just see me as "Anonymous Poster #42." I missed the part where ENWorld went for-profit, but if Morrus wants to try to make a living running this website, more power to him. That makes us bona fide customers, though, rather than just participants in the community. That might not really change anything. It might change everything.

I just know one thing, it's hard to progress without change. And the good thing about most of the changes Morrus is suggestion or even thinking about: if they don't work out, he can always roll things back to the way they were and try something else.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 5, 2010)

JediSoth said:


> I would probably use a Gamers Finding Gamers feature, though I'm not sure if I would pay for such a thing (I can name at least two websites that offer it for free and an additional two message boards that have forums for that purpose). I suppose it depends on the price point that feature were offered at. Free would be great. I would probably even pay $3/mo. for such a feature, assuming there was some way of finding out how many people were registered in my area before signing up.




I've said it a few times now, but yes GsG will be free.  The concept only works well if you include as many people as possible - a GsG with a couple of thousand people worldwide on it would be next to useless.  A GsG with EN World's entire user base on it would be an order of magnitude more populated than similar systems on other websites.  It's strength really comes from the size of the database of users.


----------



## JediSoth (Apr 5, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I've said it a few times now, but yes GsG will be free.  The concept only works well if you include as many people as possible - a GsG with a couple of thousand people worldwide on it would be next to useless.  A GsG with EN World's entire user base on it would be an order of magnitude more populated than similar systems on other websites.  It's strength really comes from the size of the database of users.




I thought I read that some where; it's starting to get hard to remember what all I've read in this thread. I should have made it clear I was speaking hypothetically when talking about charges for a feature like GsG.


----------



## tuxgeo (Apr 5, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> 10 - Dragonborn Gladiator
> 
> I don't know what 9 is, though. I'm gonna give Nifft some XP and let's find out!
> 
> I think the level names are fun. I don't mind that they're tied to 4e. It's _really_ not worth mentioning for me.



Aha! Looking back through this very thread, I see that user "Mark" is a 9th-Level "Bloodfire Harpy," though he hasn't mentioned that in-thread.


----------



## Mark (Apr 5, 2010)

tuxgeo said:


> Aha! Looking back through this very thread, I see that user "Mark" is a 9th-Level "Bloodfire Harpy," though he hasn't mentioned that in-thread.





I guess I just attained that today.  I was 8th-level last I looked.  I guess I can fly despite the elevated temperature of my hemoglobin.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 5, 2010)

Subscription levels renamed Copper and Silver.

XP levels all renamed to avoid 4E.  I am now an owlbear.

Will now take instructions on what to rename my dog.


----------



## Mark (Apr 5, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Subscription levels renamed Copper and Silver.
> 
> XP levels all renamed to avoid 4E.  I am now an owlbear.
> 
> Will now take instructions on what to rename my dog.





You're better than an owlbear, mister. 


*edit* Weird.  When I gave you an XP, your "owlbear" title disappeared then when I posted this, it came back. 


*edit two* Oh, and name your dog "Morrus" or "Guvnor."


----------



## DaveMage (Apr 5, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Will now take instructions on what to rename my dog.




"Tiamat" if female, "Bahamut" if male.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 5, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Subscription levels renamed Copper and Silver.
> 
> XP levels all renamed to avoid 4E.  I am now an owlbear.



 Cool beans.

I'm okay being a Githyanki. The Githredsocks can sit on it.

Thanks, -- N


----------



## Oryan77 (Apr 5, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Will now take instructions on what to rename my dog.




I find it offensive that you have a dog.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 5, 2010)

> XP levels all renamed to avoid 4E. I am now an owlbear.




I'm kind of concerned that this can happen just like that, but oh well, blah blah resistallchange-cakes.  I liked the two-word formula a little better, ie "Cranky Owlbear," "Rampant Harpy."  Do the titles increase so that level 6 is a 6 HD monster?


----------



## Morrus (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Do the titles increase so that level 6 is a 6 HD monster?




Goodness, no!  Using HD might offend someone!


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 5, 2010)

I like that the titles now appear without having to point at the green boxes to check the hovertext. 

However, the "add experience point" icon has been changed from a scale to a post it note. As a Libra, that offends me.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 5, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Subscription levels renamed Copper and Silver.
> 
> XP levels all renamed to avoid 4E.  I am now an owlbear.
> 
> Will now take instructions on what to rename my dog.




Mr. Woofmeister.


RC


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 5, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> 10 - Dragonborn Gladiator
> 
> I think the level names are fun. I don't mind that they're tied to 4e. It's _really_ not worth mentioning for me.




Well now you're a Troll! (And until you hit 11th level we can call you that without repercussions.  )


----------



## Nifft (Apr 5, 2010)

Nice job on the inline "rep box", too.

Thanks, -- N


----------



## Mark (Apr 5, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> I like that the titles now appear without having to point at the green boxes to check the hovertext.
> 
> However, the "add experience point" icon has been changed from a scale to a post it note. As a Libra, that offends me.





As someone who is a little sticky round the back, I think I'm offended as well.


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 5, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Nice job on the inline "rep box", too.




FYI, you also now have the option to delete XP you've just given (unless that's always been an option).


----------



## the Jester (Apr 5, 2010)

I have to agree about the inline rep box- that's a cool improvement imho. Kudos.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 5, 2010)

the Jester said:


> I have to agree about the inline rep box- that's a cool improvement imho. Kudos.




Agreed.

Although I am not _*offended*_ by the sticky-note icon, I'd like to see something cooler looking than that.......but I have no idea what.  A gem?  A bloody dagger?  A grinning skull?  A grinning cat skull with an eyepatch and a pirate hat?  Maybe someone else has a better idea, or can even supply a graphic?


----------



## Nifft (Apr 5, 2010)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> FYI, you also now have the option to delete XP you've just given (unless that's always been an option).



 It's been like that for a while -- but you had to go look for it really quickly if you wanted to see the "delete" link. Found that out when helping test "XP strength" in the Meta forum.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 5, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> Although I am not _*offended*_ by the sticky-note icon, I'd like to see something cooler looking than that.......



It now appears to be a green thumbs-up, which makes a good deal of sense. Better than the scales even, since only positive XP is possible here.


----------



## darjr (Apr 5, 2010)

I love the new xp titles, love the inline XP thingy, and the thumbs up is cool. The new subscription levels are cool to.

Nice.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 5, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> It now appears to be a green thumbs-up, which makes a good deal of sense. Better than the scales even, since only positive XP is possible here.




I'm still seeing the tack-&-sticky-note.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 5, 2010)

This XP rep change I like!

Now everyone knows I'm a Githyanki!

Oh wait...that means Piratecat thinks I suck.


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 5, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Now everyone knows I'm a Githyanki!




It's a good thing you'll change when you level up, otherwise eventually the Lich-Queen would come to destroy you! That'd be hard to explain -- "yes, an undead monarch riding a big red dragon is coming to destroy me because I was too helpful/entertaining on an Internet message board."

I'm still seeing tack-and-yellow-sticky. Maybe the icon varies with your XP level! Or your community supporter status.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 5, 2010)

> Or your community supporter status.




Now that's a sweet perk!  Reminding you of that +3 XP bonus without offending anyone who doesn't see it.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 5, 2010)

Those not seeing the green thumbs up should try a forced refresh.  The post-it is probably cached by your browser.


----------



## Oryan77 (Apr 5, 2010)

I like how the XP title is a clickable link to a page explaining the XP feature. That's very helpful.

I waited how many years without asking how the XP stuff works? If I waited a couple more days before asking the question I could have clicked the link and saved myself from looking like a newb. I came so close to keeping my intellectual reputation! Dang! Before, you just assumed I was an idiot...now everyone knows I'm an idiot!


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 5, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't include negrepping on EN World.  A better XP bonus for posrepping is as big of a boost (IMHO) without making things like edition wars worse than they already are.  

If you are going to allow negrepping, why not call it "level drain"?


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 5, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> Personally, I wouldn't include negrepping on EN World.



I agree with Raven Crowking. That should tell you something.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 5, 2010)

If you look at my XP in Jester's post you can see two things:
1) this XP feature allows inserting your opinion (positive or negative) right into someone else's post, allowing for piling on/popularity contest stuff.  Big change to the tenor of the board.
2) the amount of text the XP box allows you to input is more than the inline box displays.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 5, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> Personally, I wouldn't include negrepping on EN World.  A better XP bonus for posrepping is as big of a boost (IMHO) without making things like edition wars worse than they already are.
> 
> If you are going to allow negrepping, why not call it "level drain"?






Fifth Element said:


> I agree with Raven Crowking. That should tell you something.



 I only ever use "neg rep" on people who beg for rep.

Calling it "level drain" implies that I'm Wight, and that's racist.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 5, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> I agree with Raven Crowking. That should tell you something.




Yes.

That you're insane!


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 5, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Calling it "level drain" implies that I'm Wight, and that's racist.




Nah, you're the Wraith of Khan.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 5, 2010)

The top 100 XP page is interesting.  Surprised it only ranges from about 50 to 150 -- I'd have expected a power-law curve topping out at 1,500.  I'm sure it'll be that way eventually.

Is there also a page listing the people who give out the most XP?


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Apr 5, 2010)

Don't think I'm a fan of the inline comments of Exp.


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> The top 100 XP page is interesting.




Where do you find that?


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 5, 2010)

One cool thing about inline XP is you don't have to actually make a post just to say "I liked this."  So it increases the signal to noise in the actual posts.

I went back and looked at some old threads -- it looks weird to see "I was the only one who liked that post."  It will probably influence other people's XP behavior when they get used to thinking "That's the kind of post everybody likes to give XP to," or "He hasn't got XP for that yet?  I'll give him one," or "Gee, I wish that guy would stop giving XP to everyone who comments on his thread when I give it only for heartbreaking works of staggering genius."


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 5, 2010)

Jack99 said:


> Where do you find that?




Morrus linked a little upthread... it's here.  You're in a dead heat with another Jack, Jack7!


----------



## Nifft (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Morrus linked a little upthread... it's here.  You're in a dead heat with another Jack, Jack7!



 Interesting.

Clearly *Kamikaze Midget* needs more rep points.

Thanks, -- N


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> One cool thing about inline XP is you don't have to actually make a post just to say "I liked this."  So it increases the signal to noise in the actual posts.
> 
> I went back and looked at some old threads -- it looks weird to see "I was the only one who liked that post."  It will probably influence other people's XP behavior when they get used to thinking "That's the kind of post everybody likes to give XP to," or "He hasn't got XP for that yet?  I'll give him one," or "Gee, I wish that guy would stop giving XP to everyone who comments on his thread when I give it only for heartbreaking works of staggering genius."



I would prefer a way to anonymously give EXP.


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Morrus linked a little upthread... it's here.  You're in a dead heat with another Jack, Jack7!




I'm just one point shy of Erik Mona! I will crush you Mona, better watch out. 

Now that we have a Tote board will the quarterly poster with the most XP receive a pizza party?


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Morrus linked a little upthread... it's here.  You're in a dead heat with another Jack, Jack7!




Thanks.  It seems XP has inflated lately. What happened? I must admit I haven't been keeping up.

Edit: Ah, it seems subscribers are prioritized. Got it.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> One cool thing about inline XP is you don't have to actually make a post just to say "I liked this." So it increases the signal to noise in the actual posts.




Yup.  There are a lot of ways to reduce "me too" posts; this is the least invasive of them.


----------



## renau1g (Apr 5, 2010)

Ha! Watch out Ranger Wicket, I've had nearly as many page visits as you


----------



## Nikosandros (Apr 5, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> Personally, I wouldn't include negrepping on EN World.  A better XP bonus for posrepping is as big of a boost (IMHO) without making things like edition wars worse than they already are.



Full agreement here. I really think that negative rep is a bad idea.


----------



## Nikosandros (Apr 5, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> I would prefer a way to anonymously give EXP.



Yes, I think like the old system better.


----------



## PaulofCthulhu (Apr 5, 2010)

"Copper" has been set up - $3.00/mo
"Silver" has been set up - $5.99/mo

Which begs the question, what of "Gold"? (and "Platinum"?!)


----------



## Obryn (Apr 5, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> I would prefer a way to anonymously give EXP.



There isn't one now; this new setup just kind of places it front and center, for better or for worse.

Going to your profile already shows all of the XP comments you've received and haven't deleted.

Much like with most everything else, I'm indifferent.



Nikosandros said:


> Yes, I think like the old system better.



The old system has public XP comments. 

-O


----------



## weem (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> The top 100 XP page is interesting.




Oh yes, that is interesting... I appear to be #27 - I would have guessed I was not on the list at all.

Overall, cool changes... though I may submit some new icons for your consideration Russ


----------



## I'm A Banana (Apr 5, 2010)

Vyvan Basterd said:
			
		

> Well now you're a Troll! (And until you hit 11th level we can call you that without repercussions.   )



I can't believe Morrus would insult me like that. I am deeply offended. It's just so pointlessly cruel. I'm going to have to delete my bookmark. 






			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> Interesting.
> 
> Clearly Kamikaze Midget needs more rep points.






Never figured I'd be at the top o' the heap, but I guess I have some populist appeal that a savvy behind-the-throne man could really exploit.

Or it's just all that great elf pr0n I'm posting.


----------



## Sammael (Apr 5, 2010)

I like the new XP system... despite the fact that I'm still a lowly goblin. I also think the inline comments are a cool idea. Great!


----------



## MichaelSomething (Apr 5, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Morrus linked a little upthread... it's here.  You're in a dead heat with another Jack, Jack7!




How in Gygax's name did I end up among the most visited profiles?  I guess it must count self views...


----------



## Morrus (Apr 5, 2010)

Sammael said:


> I like the new XP system... despite the fact that I'm still a lowly goblin.




It's the same XP system... with some renaming to avoid deeply offending anyone's deeply held sensibilities. Which is impossible, of course, but still.

Unfortunately, I am now offended. What to do? Oh no!


----------



## Sammael (Apr 5, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It's the same XP system... with some renaming to avoid deeply offending anyone's deeply held sensibilities. Which is impossible, of course, but still.
> 
> Unfortunately, I am now offended. What to do? Oh no!



It's not the same, since the titles are now clearly visible, and the comments are inline. I think making the titles more prominent was a very good move, since it will (in theory) give an incentive to people (myself included) to up the quality of posts in order to attract XP awards. 

I think all offenses cancel out now, so we can start anew, un-offended.


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 6, 2010)

PIM68 said:


> "Copper" has been set up - $3.00/mo
> "Silver" has been set up - $5.99/mo



I find the $5.99 price point offensive. Like we can't tell it's _*actually $6*_. Come on.


----------



## DaveMage (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Yup.  There are a lot of ways to reduce "me too" posts; this is the least invasive of them.




Hmmm...

In theory I like it, but does this not add a new challenge to moderators?

Before, such comments were not visible to thread readers, so there was no real need for moderation of the comments.  Now, if someone posts something inappropriate in an XP comment, that might cause issues in the thread....

Should be interesting....


----------



## UngainlyTitan (Apr 6, 2010)

In the subscription page the initial blurb above the banner ads for the community subscription the text still refers to heroic and paragon tier subscriptions.


----------



## pawsplay (Apr 6, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Actually, I did. I very deliberately said, this isn't about people liking or not liking the game. It's about people taking literal offense at the idea of the tiered naming system. I hardly think that's representative of the entirety, or even the majority, of people who dislike 4E.
> 
> And if that didn't come across, I honestly apologize. I thought it was clear.




You know what? I didn't like the proposed naming, but I decided not to say anything, until I read your lovely interpretive dance that pretty much perfectly captures everything about the idea that offends me. Nice non-apology, too. I am sorry you don't get it. You just don't, and I understand and accept that and wish you no ill will for it. Just accept that I would welcome 4e-themed tier names about as much as you would welcome finding moldy food in the fridge.


----------



## Lanefan (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It's the same XP system... with some renaming to avoid deeply offending anyone's deeply held sensibilities. Which is impossible, of course, but still.



Well, none of my sensibilities are offended; but I suspect my experience points total will soon be seriously offended once the top-deck subscribers realize they now have the power of level drain. 

Lanefan


----------



## Nifft (Apr 6, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> I find the $5.99 price point offensive. Like we can't tell it's _*actually $6*_. Come on.



*Dude*, that's a savings of $0.12 a year.

But if you think nobody would notice it, all you need to do is write a computer virus that sends each of those $0.12/year to your secret Swiss bank account, and you're set for life! Or until Superman catches you.

"_Pryor Art_", -- N


----------



## renau1g (Apr 6, 2010)

Or if you forget to put the decimal in the wrong space, just hope one of your bumbling co-workers sets the building on fire to destroy the evidence.


----------



## FireLance (Apr 6, 2010)

Am I the only one who thinks it would be nice to have:

Prestidigitator (Lvl 1)
Evoker (Lvl 2)
Conjurer (Lvl 3)
Theurgist (Lvl 4)
Thaumaturgist (Lvl 5)
Magician (Lvl 6)
Enchanter (Lvl 7)
Warlock (Lvl 8)
Sorcerer (Lvl 9)
Necromancer (Lvl 10)
Wizard (Lvl 11 to 17)
Archmage (Lvl 18 and up)

Or would that be offensive to those who have never played older edition magic users?


----------



## renau1g (Apr 6, 2010)

Beyond level 1 and until lvl 11 I find the titles kinda silly, I mean what if I want to be a fighter?


----------



## FireLance (Apr 6, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Beyond level 1 and until lvl 11 I find the titles kinda silly, I mean what if I want to be a fighter?



So, you'd rather be a monster?  (RAWR once for yes.) Are lairs and minions _that_ attractive?


----------



## renau1g (Apr 6, 2010)

Well the lairs are fun and don't forget about the pillaging. The only downside is those damn adventurer's that want to kill me and take my stuff. I mean I'm an orc for Gruumsh's sake, what do they really expect me to have? A Vorpal sword?

Oh...I mean RAWR!!!!


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 6, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Or if you forget to put the decimal in the wrong space, just hope one of your bumbling co-workers sets the building on fire to destroy the evidence.



I always do that. I always mess up some mundane detail!


----------



## Mark (Apr 6, 2010)

FireLance said:


> Am I the only one who thinks





Have you read these boards before?


----------



## Mark (Apr 6, 2010)

Nifft said:


> I only ever use "neg rep" on people who (. . .)





Particularly if you have a grudge from other boards . . .


----------



## tuxgeo (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> < snip >
> 
> Unfortunately, I am now offended. What to do? Oh no!



Use the "Total Defense" action to counter an _offended_ condition.* 

I, on the other hand, am not offended -- I am more "off-handed" . . . sort of like a _main gauche_.


*_shimRot!_**

**of course, if your shims _*do*_ rot, then your house starts falling down. . . .


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 6, 2010)

I just checked out the "leader boards" page.

How in the heck did_ I _wind up in the top 10 XP points?

Oh yeah- I also _REALLY_ dig the way the comments for a post show up in the relevant post.  Nice touch.


----------



## Dire Bare (Apr 6, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> You know what? I didn't like the proposed naming, but I decided not to say anything, until I read your lovely interpretive dance that pretty much perfectly captures everything about the idea that offends me. Nice non-apology, too. I am sorry you don't get it. You just don't, and I understand and accept that and wish you no ill will for it. Just accept that I would welcome 4e-themed tier names about as much as you would welcome finding moldy food in the fridge.




Mouseferatu actually puts on a killer interpretive dance, I'm told.  Done to music from Die Fledermaus.  That's easier for me to believe that he somehow encapsulates what some find offensive about a game edition.

I, like Mouse and probably more than a few others here, just don't get it.  We just don't.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Apr 6, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I just checked out the "leader boards" page.



I fail my ENfu, where is this leader boards page?

[Edit] A little plugging around and then I finally unearth it. Emily Litella moment.


----------



## Lanefan (Apr 6, 2010)

FireLance said:


> Am I the only one who thinks it would be nice to have:
> 
> Prestidigitator (Lvl 1)
> ...
> ...



Why stop there?

When signing up, choose a class; note that you're stuck with your choice once made.  Your ExP titles then echo those of the class you chose.

Lan-"I'd have chosen Fighter, as that's what Lanefan-the-character is"-efan


----------



## Lanefan (Apr 6, 2010)

Eric Anondson said:


> I fail my ENfu, where is this leader boards page?



Click on anybody's experience point title under their name and avatar, it'll take you there.

Lanefan


----------



## Jack99 (Apr 6, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> You know what? I didn't like the proposed naming, but I decided not to say anything, until I read your lovely interpretive dance that pretty much perfectly captures everything about the idea that offends me. Nice non-apology, too. I am sorry you don't get it. You just don't, and I understand and accept that and wish you no ill will for it. Just accept that I would welcome 4e-themed tier names about as much as you would welcome finding moldy food in the fridge.




How many times did you complain over the old XP-titles, cause they were 4e - or at least 4e-inspired, and yet, I never read a single complaint. Granted, Morrus might have been swamped by emails, but in my opinion, if you guys really want to complain about something, you start a thread for the world to see.


----------



## FireLance (Apr 6, 2010)

Lanefan said:


> Why stop there?
> 
> When signing up, choose a class; note that you're stuck with your choice once made.  Your ExP titles then echo those of the class you chose.
> 
> Lan-"I'd have chosen Fighter, as that's what Lanefan-the-character is"-efan



Alternatively, you can change your class, but you start again from 0 XP. At least, until the level from your new class exceeds the level from your old class, after which you can use both level titles. 

Alternatively, changing classes at will might be a Gold subscription perk.


----------



## Orius (Apr 6, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> I like that the titles now appear without having to point at the green boxes to check the hovertext.
> 
> However, the "add experience point" icon has been changed from a scale to a post it note. As a Libra, that offends me.




I noticed the other day that "Ignore Thread" uses a scale too, so maybe Morrus changed it to avoid overlapping?



Morrus said:


> Yup.  There are a lot of ways to reduce "me too" posts; this is the least invasive of them.




On one hand, I didn't like the public nature of the comments; I've usually seen them used as private. But avoiding me toos is pretty useful.



MichaelSomething said:


> How in Gygax's name did I end up among the most visited profiles?  I guess it must count self views...




I think the really active users are on there, I'm lower on the list and it's not that surprising.  I've gotten people looking at my page whose user names I'd never seen before.  What is surprsing is that I've gotten more page views than people like Mouseferatu and the Rouse.  How'd THAT happen?! 



Sammael said:


> It's not the same, since the titles are now clearly visible, and the comments are inline. I think making the titles more prominent was a very good move, since it will (in theory) give an incentive to people (myself included) to up the quality of posts in order to attract XP awards.




In theory, really.  I've made some fairly constructive posts that only got a few XP here and there, so I'm not sure how much it will help.  Though maybe it's because people were ignoring the system too?

Has the limits on giving XP been changed?  I know there was the whole "give to 50 different people" thing going on.  If that's still the same, I think that number is pretty high given how many people regularly use the boards, I know some users, including myself, have been given out proxy XP because some people couldn't.  

Also, I'm not sure negative rep is a good idea.  I've seen it used elsewhere, and sometimes it creates unnecessary drama and hostility among board users.  It _can_ be helpful when someone is being offensive, but I'm not sure it's worth the trouble.  I think negative rep is probably best restricted to the board moderators, and probably inflicted when a post needs moderation or if someone crosses the line and gets banned for a few days.



Lanefan said:


> Why stop there?
> 
> When signing up, choose a class; note that you're stuck with your choice once made.  Your ExP titles then echo those of the class you chose.




I call dibs on wizard, naturally.

OOPS, my bad, that's supposed to be M-U.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 6, 2010)

Here's an idea: 

-----------------------------------------------------
This post received 3 xp.  Click here to expand.
-----------------------------------------------------

That way you get the public kudos, no me-tooing, but people don't have to write their comments to appeal to everyone who reads the thread and they don't get just as much attention as the person who actually wrote the post.


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 6, 2010)

deleted


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 6, 2010)

Vyvyan Basterd said:


> I'm just one point shy of Erik Mona! I will crush you Mona, better watch out.




Thank you to those who helped me steamroll Mona. Now I'm just 4 points from usurping Master Rouse!


----------



## renau1g (Apr 6, 2010)

You could pay us back...you know...with xp of our own


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 6, 2010)

I do not think we should touch declaring a character class for our leveling even with a 10' pole.  If we do that, we will have flame wars as people dispute whether RangerWickett has a high enough Wisdom to be a Ranger (sorry, turnabout for the earlier Scion of Drunkenness comment   ).  That will lead to wars about what system to use to determine our individual stats; 3d6 straight, 4d6 drop lowest, 28 point-buy etc.  Following that will be the war about which edition to use to determine the required stats, and whether a Bard can be level 1 before they are a 5th level Fighter/Thief/Druid and then whether a Thief is a Rogue and a Rogue is a Thief war, followed of course by the apocalyptic Vanilla versus Chocolate War where the Strawberry people are offended by everyone else.


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 6, 2010)

renau1g said:


> You could pay us back...you know...with xp of our own




"You must spread some experience around before giving it to renau1g again."

Seems I was the one paying it forward...


----------



## DaveMage (Apr 6, 2010)

Oh, one more thing - apparently the XP awards are not subject to ignore.  So if you have someone on your ignore list, you can still see them when they give XP.

Diaglo's gonna wonder who all these people are.


----------



## El Mahdi (Apr 6, 2010)

deleted


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Apr 6, 2010)

Lanefan said:


> Why stop there?
> 
> When signing up, choose a class; note that you're stuck with your choice once made.  Your ExP titles then echo those of the class you chose.
> 
> Lan-"I'd have chosen Fighter, as that's what Lanefan-the-character is"-efan



I like that.  Or instead of pleasing the masses with choices that will cause a headache on his end.  Keep it simple such as using an edition every two weeks.  Gives a little something to everyone.
Week 1 & 2 is OD&D Fighter names.
Week 3 & 4 is BECMI Fighter names.
and so on rotate through each editions classes.  Most on here will have fun watching changes.  Or if the 2 week rotation is too quick do it on a monthly basis.  Heck even through in levels from other systems.



Nifft said:


> *Dude*, that's a savings of $0.12 a year.
> 
> But if you think nobody would notice it, all you need to do is write a computer virus that sends each of those $0.12/year to your secret Swiss bank account, and you're set for life! Or until Superman catches you.
> 
> "_Pryor Art_", -- N



You laugh but this happened in the Marine Corps.  Two programmers took the Fractions of a Penny (left over) out of each Marine's pay and sent it to an account.  Took two years to catch it within the accounting systems.  This was back in the late 80's.



Noumenon said:


> Here's an idea:
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------
> This post received 3 xp.  Click here to expand.
> ...



If that is plausible, I think that would be the best of all solutions.  Shows what people have thought of the post and if you want to know more you can click on it to see.


----------



## PowerWordDumb (Apr 6, 2010)

Mark said:


> Particularly if you have a grudge from other boards . . .




Hey everybody!  Look who thought each different board was a separate universe, with some implicit presidential pardon for crimes committed elsewhere!

Hey everybody! look who gets banned from the thread for rudeness to someone else!


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 6, 2010)

I find the in-line comments kinda annoying.

I would very much like a way for individual users to ignore that section of posts.

In the alternative, I think the drop-down option to view comments would work.

I also think focusing more on XP and rep comments is a bad idea.  We are a competitive lot, and it adds a competitive element that I think harms the communal nature of the board.  I know it was always there, but not in such a visible manner.  Now, it's face front, and you already have people talking about it in threads like this one.

It also might have a tendency to alienate newbies.  I know when my wife joined CM, the whole rep comment thing was a bit alienating and felt cliquish to her.  I'm betting others feel the same, and making it more visible makes that aspect worse.

And the cliquish thing will probably happen.  When edition wars break out, you'll see the same groups of people XP'ing cheers to the side they agree with, causing the other side to XP comments to their side, thus fanning the flames of the edition war through the comments.

Overall, I just think the visible in-line comments is a bad idea.  Give us a way to hide them at least.  It's far worse than the "me too" comments and "this", which I agree are annoying.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Apr 6, 2010)

"Me Too" posts may be silly, especially if they are simply "QFT" or "Ditto" with nothing else, but having them grant XP or rep doesn't make sense.

Does this mean that if I agree with a post I'll have to rep or give XP?  That's gonna artificially inflate some XP levels and I agee that like-minded individuals could exploit this to to show allegience, back and forth, like a veiled edition war.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 6, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> Does this mean that if I agree with a post I'll have to rep or give XP?




You don't_ have_ to do anything.  You can _choose_ to do either, both or none.


----------



## jmucchiello (Apr 6, 2010)

First, I'm not a supported (for shame) and so I really shouldn't say anything about this. But, as a reader, I'm glad to see there is development going on. There was time when there were no backups, no maintenance, etc and those were dark times indeed.

If I were to be a supporter, I'd be unhappy about the gamers seeking gamers thing. It has been tried several times before. There was the forum and then there was the map thing (did it go away) now there's another initiative. The flaw with a gsg section is that people don't seek out fellow gamers very often. It is extremely low volume, low use. Once you are in a group, the gsg section of any website is just a waste of bits. And if the section fails you after a month, it's going to continue failing you until someone magically appears with a game for you. I suspect what will happen here is they will release it. It will be "popular' for a month or two and then few will remember it is there.

Is this the best way to spend money on ENWorld? Time will tell.


----------



## catsclaw227 (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> catsclaw227 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My Bad, I should have worded this differently.  What I wanted to say:

Does this mean that if I agree with a post I should give XP instead of just a "me too"?  

I wonder if there will be etiquette changes (unofficial, of course) in the way rep and "me too" posts work.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 6, 2010)

jmucchiello said:


> If I were to be a supporter, I'd be unhappy about the gamers seeking gamers thing. It has been tried several times before. There was the forum and then there was the map thing (did it go away) now there's another initiative. The flaw with a gsg section is that people don't seek out fellow gamers very often. It is extremely low volume, low use. Once you are in a group, the gsg section of any website is just a waste of bits. And if the section fails you after a month, it's going to continue failing you until someone magically appears with a game for you. I suspect what will happen here is they will release it. It will be "popular' for a month or two and then few will remember it is there.
> 
> Is this the best way to spend money on ENWorld? Time will tell.




The map went away - it was a third party site that recently changed to require payment to maintain the map.  

The forum didn't work because it was cumbersome to deal with.  I found it wasn't good at narrowing down a region well enough, it was not kept current, and threads would drop off the first page if they were not regularly bumped.  As a supporter, I don't mind resources being spent on developing a better way, as long as the core functionality of this site is maintained.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 6, 2010)

catsclaw227 said:


> My Bad, I should have worded this differently. What I wanted to say:
> 
> Does this mean that if I agree with a post I should give XP instead of just a "me too"?
> 
> I wonder if there will be etiquette changes (unofficial, of course) in the way rep and "me too" posts work.




That remains to be seen. Like many things, we won't know until we try it!

I'm of the opinion that it will increase use of the rep system.  And that posrep is one of those little things that really makes your day (in a minor way).  So the more of that, the better; getting posrep makes people happy.  Happy people are nice people.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> You don't_ have_ to do anything.  You can _choose_ to do either, both or none.




I think that the point is:  If you want EN World to feel more like Circvs Maximvs, this is the way to go.

When the kudos were largely in the shadows -- and only kudos, not negrep as well -- then you felt good, and were happy about receiving those kudos.  Because it was just about your posts, not about someone else's, unless you were the giver.  Sort of like Christmas presents.

But, like Christmas presents, when you start comparing with the Joneses, things get wonky.  Add the ability to take away Christmas presents, and the sure knowledge that someone else is getting XP for a post that puts someone on your personal "naughty" list, and I'm not seeing a whole lot of happy.

People will, perhaps, buy memberships to help fuel a repwar.  In that way, I can see it helping your bottom line _*in the short term only*_.  But changing the nature of the board overall might well mean changing the level of traffic, and the level of participation, for the worse.  And that could harm your bottom line in the long term.

Something, perhaps, to think about.

But it's your back yard, and you call the shots.  And I fully support your right to do so.


RC


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## Morrus (Apr 6, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> I think that the point is: If you want EN World to feel more like Circvs Maximvs, this is the way to go.




I respectfully completely disagree with this assertion.


----------



## Mark (Apr 6, 2010)

PowerWordDumb said:


> Hey everybody!  Look who thought each different board was a separate universe, with some implicit presidential pardon for crimes committed elsewhere!





Crimes?  Man, you sure live up to your name sometimes.

Don't respond, report it. Thanks. PS


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> That remains to be seen. Like many things, we won't know until we try it!
> 
> I'm of the opinion that it will increase use of the rep system.  And that posrep is one of those little things that really makes your day (in a minor way).  So the more of that, the better; getting posrep makes people happy.  Happy people are nice people.




I think it is likely that if you make all rep comments visible, with no way to hide it, that you will not get a net result of happier and nicer people.  Instead, I think rep comments will be used as a tool to fan the flames of arguments and competition, and will become more of a headache for your mods.

It's already happening.  Already in this thread you had people jokingly soliciting XP.  Do you honestly think, given your user base is fans of a set of games, that it won't foster competition (and sometimes not in a good way)?


----------



## Morrus (Apr 6, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> I think it is likely that if you make all rep comments visible, with no way to hide it, that you will not get a net result of happier and nicer people. Instead, I think rep comments will be used as a tool to fan the flames of arguments and competition, and will become more of a headache for your mods.
> 
> It's already happening. Already in this thread you had people jokingly soliciting XP. Do you honestly think, given your user base is fans of a set of games, that it won't foster competition (and sometimes not in a good way)?




Ah, I misphrased myself.  When I said "we won't know till we try it", I meant to say "everyone except Mistwell won't know till we try it; Mistwell, of course, knows."


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I respectfully completely disagree with this assertion.




(Shrug)

It looks like we'll have the chance to find out.

I mean, I suppose the experiment has me agreeing with Mistwell and Fifth Element already, so it can't be a foregone conclusion that it won't increase net agreement across the boards (pun intended).

I feel obligated to point out what seem to be likely pitfalls.  I don't feel that you are obligated to agree with me or, even were it the case that you did agree with me, act upon those pitfalls.  After all, you are putting yourself on the line here, and you certainly get to call the shots!


RC


----------



## Obryn (Apr 6, 2010)

Here's one for the idea box, if rep points are going to become more prominent and visible.  

I think it'd be great to give mods the power of neg-rep, so they can nuke any rep points earned off a post which also earned a red-texting or a banhammer.

I say this as someone who's gotten both rep and red text for the same post. 

-O


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Ah, I misphrased myself.  When I said "we won't know till we try it", I meant to say "everyone except Mistwell won't know till we try it; Mistwell, of course, knows."




You said what you think will be the likely result:



Morrus said:


> I'm of the opinion that...




I said what I think will be the likely result:



Mistwell said:


> I think it is likely that...




WTF Morrus?

What's with the snark when you don't even hold yourself to the same standard you seem to be holding me to?

Where's my negrep button!


----------



## Dice4Hire (Apr 6, 2010)

I see this new rep system as a way of backhandedly commenting on the post, sine people can easily read it. No nee to post a reply, just do it with the experience point comments.

Please make an ignore function for these inline comments!!!!!!


----------



## Nifft (Apr 6, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Morrus linked a little upthread... it's here.  You're in a dead heat with another Jack, Jack7!



 Hey, could we also get a list of people who have *given* the most rep (by comment count, not point total)?

Thanks, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 6, 2010)

Nifft said:
			
		

> It is frequently the more contentious posts which garner the most rep.




If this is your experience (and it is mine), how does one gain more rep?

Is it really hard to believe that players who understand "X gives you more XP than Y in edition Z" are going to find this hard to figure out?  

One who sets "win conditions" (of a sort) should hardly be surprised when, lo and behold!, others are able to figure out (1) how to "win", and (2) what the effects of many people trying to "win" are therefore likely to be.



RC


P.S.:  Note also that rep comments can be quoted and commented on.  Perhaps an unintended side-effect? 

(I feel like I am playtesting a new ruleset!  )


----------



## Nifft (Apr 6, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> If this is your experience (and it is mine), how does one gain more rep?



 In my case, by being a chatty bitch who posts a lot. Eventually I say something good and people give me candy for it.

I suspect you'll see a lot of people with high post counts also having a high rep.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 6, 2010)

I'm sure you'll make it to troll soon!


----------



## Obryn (Apr 6, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> If this is your experience (and it is mine), how does one gain more rep?



I don't have an issue with contentious posts - that's part of what makes a message board interesting.  The issue is with ones that specifically cross the line.  It's a mixed message when you get smacked on one hand, while getting (using Nifft's phrase) candy in the other.

-O


----------



## Nifft (Apr 6, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> I'm sure you'll make it to troll soon!



 I catch your double-meaning, but it's very likely that, in all the excitement of 17k posts, I've already written things which are functionally indistinguishable from troll-posts. It's only the fact that I've written a whole lot more non-trollish stuff that allows one to give me any kind of benefit of the doubt.

I've been banned (once) and thread-banned (once or twice, can't recall), and I did indeed receive some posrep from those ban-worth posts.

People tend to posrep for funny, and there's a thin line between funny and mean. I try to stay on the Light Side, but I'm not perfect, and neither is my judgment.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## renau1g (Apr 6, 2010)

The call of the Dark Side is so strong as well..."If you only knew the power of the Dark Side" to quote someone famous


----------



## billd91 (Apr 6, 2010)

Obryn said:


> I don't have an issue with contentious posts - that's part of what makes a message board interesting.  The issue is with ones that specifically cross the line.  It's a mixed message when you get smacked on one hand, while getting (using Nifft's phrase) candy in the other.
> 
> -O




I wouldn't say it's a mixed message, technically. You're getting two distinct messages from different sources. One from the mods trying to keep a lid on conflict and one from a participant with no official standing cheering because you metaphorically kicked someone else in the groin. 

Personally, I'm not too concerned with this since it's always been possible. We've always had the ability to pander. But now, rather than having to dig up a profile, I can see when this happens right in the offending post.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 6, 2010)

billd91 said:


> I wouldn't say it's a mixed message, technically. You're getting two distinct messages from different sources. One from the mods trying to keep a lid on conflict and one from a participant with no official standing cheering because you metaphorically kicked someone else in the groin.
> 
> Personally, I'm not too concerned with this since it's always been possible. We've always had the ability to pander. But now, rather than having to dig up a profile, I can see when this happens right in the offending post.



 The new visible rep actually improves the situation, IMHO.

Now I bet you won't see people as eager to add rep to a post which is already subject to visible mod action, and I also suspect people will begin -- or already have begun -- to use the posrep feature to signal simple agreement.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Oryan77 (Apr 6, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> how does one gain more rep?




By sending me paypal payments. For every $1 you send me, I give you posrep. When I get $3, I'll subscribe so I can give you more rep. From here on out I shall be known as Repman. The price can be negotiated if you have a high enough diplomacy check.


----------



## Obryn (Apr 6, 2010)

billd91 said:


> I wouldn't say it's a mixed message, technically. You're getting two distinct messages from different sources. One from the mods trying to keep a lid on conflict and one from a participant with no official standing cheering because you metaphorically kicked someone else in the groin.
> 
> Personally, I'm not too concerned with this since it's always been possible. We've always had the ability to pander. But now, rather than having to dig up a profile, I can see when this happens right in the offending post.



Good point.

How about "It would remove the rep point reward for punching people in the groin."

-O


----------



## Nonei (Apr 6, 2010)

TheYeti1775 said:


> I like that. Or instead of pleasing the masses with choices that will cause a headache on his end. Keep it simple such as using an edition every two weeks. Gives a little something to everyone.
> Week 1 & 2 is OD&D Fighter names.
> Week 3 & 4 is BECMI Fighter names.
> and so on rotate through each editions classes. Most on here will have fun watching changes. Or if the 2 week rotation is too quick do it on a monthly basis. Heck even through in levels from other systems.




You know, I like this suggestion of rotating titles... you don't have to remain edition-neutral (IMO) if you can spread the love.  

Why not have a contest and have posters post suggestions of what to name  the 13 ranks (or however many there are!) - then Morrus could just pick the ones he likes the best (and/or have people vote on them) and rotate through them on a bi-weekly or monthly basis? (Assuming it's not too hard for him to change the names.)

If there's one referencing the Magic Users from OD&D, well then that's an Easter egg for those that are familiar.  If the titles are referencing 4e, that's an Easter egg for those players.  Pathfinder: sure.  And people always love finding Easter eggs! I probably wouldn't get any of those references, but I'll get any 3e ones LOL.  And, of course, edition-neutral is great too.

There's already been a few creative suggestions on this thread, and I'm sure with all the originality on these boards you'd have a ton to pick from!


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 6, 2010)

> The new visible rep actually improves the situation, IMHO.
> 
> Now I bet you won't see people as eager to add rep to a post which is already subject to visible mod action, and I also suspect people will begin -- or already have begun -- to use the posrep feature to signal simple agreement.




Which, in turn, could create greater "churn" within the XP system, resulting in fewer people lamenting the whole "You must spread XP around before giving N more XP" thing.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 6, 2010)

Mistwell said:


> WTF Morrus?
> 
> What's with the snark when you don't even hold yourself to the same standard you seem to be holding me to?
> 
> Where's my negrep button!




Hey, c'mon man, gimme a break. It's pretty hard work having every single thing you do microanalysed and predictions of doom made every time you change your hairstyle.  I'm not Jesus - a bit of exasperation is going to sneak through from time to time.

I'd like a chance to try something and _see_ what happens. We've been here 10 years; a couple of weeks of trying new things will not bring about the end of the world as we know it.


----------



## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 6, 2010)

Nifft said:


> In my case, by being a chatty bitch who posts a lot. Eventually I say something good and people give me candy for it.
> 
> I suspect you'll see a lot of people with high post counts also having a high rep.




If possible, maybe the solution is to list the Top Rep board in order of Rep Ratio (points of Rep divided by number of posts). Graded by Signal-to-Noise Ratio.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 6, 2010)

> If possible, maybe the solution is to list the Top Rep board in order of Rep Ratio (points of Rep divided by number of posts). Graded by Signal-to-Noise Ratio.




I'm interested in using this system to find good posters and good posts, so I'd definitely be interested in seeing it sorted this way (it's not either-or, you can have a top 100 by both ways).

I would also greatly enjoy browsing a list of the top 100 XP-garnering posts and top 100 XP-garnering threads (that one would definitely have to be divided by number of posts).


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 6, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I'd like a chance to try something and _see_ what happens. We've been here 10 years; a couple of weeks of trying new things will not bring about the end of the world as we know it.




We are* so *doomed.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Apr 6, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Well, at least an Ignore that ignores comments from people on an ignore list.




I agree, actually, thus far I have seen no rep posts from anyone on my ignore list, which either means it already works, or I just missed them giving rep. I'll keep an eye out and see if I notice one.


----------



## coyote6 (Apr 6, 2010)

There's an easier way to test -- I will go ignore someone who gave XP in this thread, then come back & see if I can still see their comments.

Randomly picked two XP-givers from the previous page, ignored 'em, refreshed said previous page, and . . . I can still see their comments.


----------



## Maggan (Apr 6, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> I agree, actually, thus far I have seen no rep posts from anyone on my ignore list, which either means it already works, or I just missed them giving rep. I'll keep an eye out and see if I notice one.




I've seen rep posts from people on my ignore list. And thus the xp becomes one way to post and "circumvent" the ignore function.

Not that it is anyone's responsibility to make sure they uphold my ignore list, it's totally my own problem having such a list in the first place.

/M


----------



## Oryan77 (Apr 6, 2010)

Two things....

First, did Dice4Hire just quote himself and agree with himself?
http://www.enworld.org/forum/5143763-post444.html
That's hilarious!

Second, people actually use the ignore feature? Dang, no wonder nobody ever responds to my posts half of the time.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 6, 2010)

Perhaps a post's XP commentary could be hidden, accessible via a button like the "Spoiler" text button.


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## Fifth Element (Apr 6, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> First, did Dice4Hire just quote himself and agree with himself?
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/5143763-post444.html
> That's hilarious!



Certainly looks that way! Too funny.


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 6, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Certainly looks that way! Too funny.



I agree with you. Also, you're very handsome if you don't mind me saying so.


----------



## darjr (Apr 6, 2010)

Oryan77 said:


> Second, people actually use the ignore feature? Dang, no wonder nobody ever responds to my posts half of the time.




All this time, I could have just automated it!


----------



## Nonei (Apr 6, 2010)

LOL well, for the benefit of Dice4Hire, I will point out that he was actually caught in the (new) trap of quoting the xp comment someone else left in his post.

Here's the link to the post he was quoting.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Apr 6, 2010)

Nonei said:


> LOL well, for the benefit of Dice4Hire, I will point out ...



Dice4Hire?  Izzat you?


----------



## Mistwell (Apr 7, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> I agree, actually, thus far I have seen no rep posts from anyone on my ignore list, which either means it already works, or I just missed them giving rep. I'll keep an eye out and see if I notice one.




That's hilarious. Unintended, and now that I see it was a rep comment to your post you were responded to, but still pretty funny.


----------



## jmucchiello (Apr 7, 2010)

Thornir Alekeg said:


> The forum didn't work because it was cumbersome to deal with.  I found it wasn't good at narrowing down a region well enough, it was not kept current, and threads would drop off the first page if they were not regularly bumped.  As a supporter, I don't mind resources being spent on developing a better way, as long as the core functionality of this site is maintained.




Arguably this is exactly how it should work. Someone shouts out "Starting a game on Saturdays...." people do or don't sign up. The game might happen. Over time no more recruitment is needed and the OP doesn't have to remember to set his "seeking" status afterward. I repeat: how often is any one person really looking for a game? It is a niche*** function. And I think the forum handles it well enough.

The old forum had useful categories for narrowing the region down. It was the update several years ago when the categories were lost and never brought back.

*** The number of responses in this thread seriously discussing it should be a testimony to the "niche" categorization.


----------



## Orius (Apr 7, 2010)

jmucchiello said:


> Arguably this is exactly how it should work. Someone shouts out "Starting a game on Saturdays...." people do or don't sign up. The game might happen. Over time no more recruitment is needed and the OP doesn't have to remember to set his "seeking" status afterward. I repeat: how often is any one person really looking for a game? It is a niche*** function. And I think the forum handles it well enough.




Come to think of it, IIRC, I originally registered on ENWorld to advertise my internet campaign here.

So the old way wasn't all bad, it started me posting here!


----------



## MerricB (Apr 7, 2010)

Orius said:


> Come to think of it, IIRC, I originally registered on ENWorld to advertise my internet campaign here.
> 
> So the old way wasn't all bad, it started me posting here!




3000 odd posts later... have you posted more here than in your campaign? 

Cheers!


----------



## wedgeski (Apr 7, 2010)

I like the inline posrep, but man, I didn't realise there was so much XP flying around this place!


----------



## MerricB (Apr 7, 2010)

wedgeski said:


> I like the inline posrep, but man, I didn't realise there was so much XP flying around this place!




I don't think there is; most people don't give it. I've a feeling it's become more common now you're reminded more about it by people being able to see that XP is being given!

Cheers!


----------



## Dice4Hire (Apr 7, 2010)

Fifth Element: 

  XP for agreeing with yourself.

--------------------

Look carefully aged Jedi.......


----------



## Dice4Hire (Apr 7, 2010)

I definitely do not like the new inline xp. I liked it a lot better being done more or less privately. Most xp comments I have seen in this thread should be new posts, not xp awards. 

Unfortunately the control panel does not seem to allow opting out of the whole xp game. I would like that feature as I try hard to keep the experience here as simple as possible.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 7, 2010)

> Perhaps a post's XP commentary could be hidden, accessible via a button like the "Spoiler" text button.




Good call, that brings it one step closer to doability.


----------



## Noumenon (Apr 7, 2010)

> I've a feeling it's become more common now you're reminded more about it by people being able to see that XP is being given!




Yeah, one of the sad things about XP is that the thoughtful posts you want to get it never get near as much as the posts discussing XP itself.  I bet 40% of my XP comes from the fact that I like commenting on the XP system design.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 7, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Yeah, one of the sad things about XP is that the thoughtful posts you want to get it never get near as much as the posts discussing XP itself.  I bet 40% of my XP comes from the fact that I like commenting on the XP system design.




Nice try......


----------



## Nifft (Apr 7, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> Yeah, one of the sad things about XP is that the thoughtful posts you want to get it never get near as much as the posts discussing XP itself.  I bet 40% of my XP comes from the fact that I like commenting on the XP system design.



 IMHO this is because people generally *forget the XP system exists*. It's new(ish) and it was previously vanishingly unobtrusive.

When you're in a discussion about the XP system, at least you're reminded that it exists.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Apr 7, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Hey, c'mon man, gimme a break. It's pretty hard work having every single thing you do microanalysed and predictions of doom made every time you change your hairstyle.  I'm not Jesus - a bit of exasperation is going to sneak through from time to time.
> 
> I'd like a chance to try something and _see_ what happens. We've been here 10 years; a couple of weeks of trying new things will not bring about the end of the world as we know it.



Morrus, this sounds so much like a drug dealer for a first time buyer. 
"Come on man, your first hit is free.  You'll like it man, it ain't the end of the world." 
LOL



Orius said:


> Come to think of it, IIRC, I originally registered on ENWorld to advertise my internet campaign here.
> 
> So the old way wasn't all bad, it started me posting here!



That's why I originally registered in 2004.  I had just moved back to the area and was looking for a game.  Repsonded to an ad on here.  Had been lurking for a time before that.  But never had anything to ad to the conversations.

-------------
But as a side note on VBul functionality there is a function for a Thumbs Up / Down on a post.  One of my other boards uses it to cut down on the +1 and I agree posts.  It doesn't count for rep or anything .

Looks like this at the bottom of each post.


> 1 out of 1 members found this post helpful. Did you find this post helpful? <green thumb up img> | <red thumb down img>



Or just the last part if noone has voted on it.


> Did you find this post helpful? <green thumb up img> | <red thumb down img>




Fairly unobtrusive and lets one agree/disagree anonymously with a a post.
I've found it fairly helpful in using it in helping judge useful ness of a post, especially in the tech sections of that forum.  
I would find that more useful than Experience Comments showing.  And you could use both options.  Also cuts down on unnecessary posts of +1/X2/etc that don't add value to a thread.

Another idea on Experience and your tiered supporter system is this:
Just regular forum users can only give experence to Supporters.  While Supporters can give to anyone.  It's a thought, not sure if it's possible to split that function in that way.


----------



## Thornir Alekeg (Apr 7, 2010)

jmucchiello said:


> Arguably this is exactly how it should work. Someone shouts out "Starting a game on Saturdays...." people do or don't sign up. The game might happen. Over time no more recruitment is needed and the OP doesn't have to remember to set his "seeking" status afterward. I repeat: how often is any one person really looking for a game? It is a niche*** function. And I think the forum handles it well enough.



 It works OK if, and only if the recruitment is no longer needed.  When a game has openings, but they decide to proceed with what they have, they need to remember to maintain the thread if they ever hope to attract additional players from the forum.  Conversely, and what I personally experienced, players seeking a game who are unable to find one that fits their search may eventually give up.  They may still be open to a game, but unless they keep checking, they may miss an opportunity for a game.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 7, 2010)

jmucchiello said:


> Arguably this is exactly how it should work. Someone shouts out "Starting a game on Saturdays...." people do or don't sign up. The game might happen. Over time no more recruitment is needed and the OP doesn't have to remember to set his "seeking" status afterward. I repeat: how often is any one person really looking for a game? It is a niche*** function. And I think the forum handles it well enough.




That doesn't work so well for ongoing games where new players are welcome, though.  A map-based solution is more elegant.


----------



## jmucchiello (Apr 7, 2010)

Morrus said:


> That doesn't work so well for ongoing games where new players are welcome, though.  A map-based solution is more elegant.



"Ongoing games where new players are always welcome" is such a tiny subset of "gamers currently seeking gamers" which is itself a subset of "gamers".

I'm not saying the old interface is optimal. I'm saying a map-based solution is excessively over-engineered compared to the amount of use it will actually see. It's very low ROI in terms of being useful to a large number of users, in terms of money (apparently already) spent, and in terms of future maintenance.

I'm the first to admit that I hope I'm wrong in my analysis. Maybe the number of requests Morrus gets is beyond my dreams. I'm sure for the first month or two the new section will see heavy usage. But a year from launch, I'd like to hear how it is doing compared to how it did at launch.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 7, 2010)

jmucchiello said:


> . But a year from launch, I'd like to hear how it is doing compared to how it did at launch.




You'll get your wish!


----------



## john112364 (Apr 8, 2010)

I for one am looking forward to the Gamers seeking Gamers function. I already got one player from EN World without it. I would like to see how many I can find with it.

And I find the inline comments an interesting idea. I've already had some good laughs from people playing with the xp. Let's see what happens when the newness wears off.

Keep the changes coming Morrus. Hey if a change doesn't work you can always change it back.


----------



## renau1g (Apr 8, 2010)

I also look forward to the seeking gamers section


----------



## BryonD (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorry if this answer is back in the thread somewhere...

Is the posting of XP comments just a trial thing?

So far, to me, I find it kinda adds these little diversions into the flow of the thread.

Plus, it is nice to be able to post a public reply or to throw in a private comment.  Making XP comments public reduces the utility.  (IMO, maybe I'm way out of step)


----------



## Orius (Apr 8, 2010)

MerricB said:


> 3000 odd posts later... have you posted more here than in your campaign?
> 
> Cheers!




Well, it was an IRC based campaign actually, not PbP, and I've been here a lot longer than that campaign lasted.


----------



## Chacal (Apr 8, 2010)

BryonD said:


> So far, to me, I find it kinda adds these little diversions into the flow of the thread.




Signatures will be shorter so I expect the flow of the threads to be quite improved, considering that rep comments are probably more "on topic" than sigs. 

Maybe the rep comments could be less distracting by replacing the smileys with text ?

Chacal


----------



## Nonei (Apr 8, 2010)

BryonD said:


> Sorry if this answer is back in the thread somewhere...
> 
> Is the posting of XP comments just a trial thing?





From the meta forum thread (found here) discussing the in-line rep comments:


Morrus said:


> Well, let's see how it goes for a while.  Might  work, might not.  Time will tell.


----------



## BryonD (Apr 8, 2010)

Chacal said:


> Signatures will be shorter so I expect the flow of the threads to be quite improved, considering that rep comments are probably more "on topic" than sigs.
> 
> Maybe the rep comments could be less distracting by replacing the smileys with text ?
> 
> Chacal



It isn't the length, it is the semi-on-topic tangents.  
Sigs are sigs, but these are "replies" that aren't replies.  I think when people start responding to XP comments it will be even ore difficult to stay on topic.


And the private/public thing is even more significant to me.



And thanks, Nonei


----------



## Beginning of the End (Apr 8, 2010)

Morrus said:


> To this end, I'm rejigging the community supporter subscriptions a little. I haven't fully settled on the list (although nobody will lose anything from their subscription), but we're looking at an additional higher tier subscription for about $6, and moving forum signatures into the subscription framework. That means that signatures will be only be available to people who have a subscription. Why sigs, and why now? Well, as I mentioned the boards are now self-sustaining, and I now need to facilitate growth - not in terms of size, but in quality. To do that, I want to encourage people to become subscribers without removing access to all the threads and ideas here, ensuring that these thing - the _really_ important things - remain available to all. Limiting sigs to subscribers - a feature that I tend to find distracting - seemed to be the right choice.




I've been on a board that tried this.

Apparently CTRL-C/CTRL-V is very cost effective.

And deleting those .sigs every time you went to quote someone's posts was _so_ much fun.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Apr 8, 2010)

Beginning of the End said:


> Apparently CTRL-C/CTRL-V is very cost effective.



If doing this is made "against the rules," I don't think it would remain a problem for long.  God knows, I _already_ wish I could report some .sigs.


----------



## Piratecat (Apr 9, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> If doing this is made "against the rules," I don't think it would remain a problem for long.  God knows, I _already_ wish I could report some .sigs.



I imagine it would be. I, for one, would find it incredibly irritating.


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 9, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> If doing this is made "against the rules," I don't think it would remain a problem for long.  God knows, I _already_ wish I could report some .sigs.



Not trying to speak for the mods, but it seems to me that would be a heck of a thing to police.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Apr 9, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Not trying to speak for the mods, but it seems to me that would be a heck of a thing to police.



I think the hardest part would be the flood of reported posts.  And, like I said, it wouldn't take long for people to catch on and stop being tools.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Apr 9, 2010)

One odd thing I noticed today, when I signed off to read a couple posts on my ignore list.

When you are not signed in, you can see the comment, but the person who made the comment is a green box with no name.

Is that intentional?


----------



## airwalkrr (Apr 9, 2010)

Beginning of the End said:


> Apparently CTRL-C/CTRL-V is very cost effective.




You read my mind. I have also seen this and it is far more annoying than signatures which can be turned off if the user so desired.

*The whole reason signatures were created in the first place as a forum feature is because people were doing this for years before!*

It doesn't matter if you make it against the rules or not. Like or not, not everyone reads the forum rules before they post, especially if they are like me and usually just assume that avoiding flames and rude language will conform with the majority of forum rules. If I were a newcomer to a forum and saw that I couldn't post a sig with a free account, but wanted a sig anyway, CTRL-C/CTRL-V is EXACTLY what I would do. And if I got warned or banned for doing so, I doubt I would ever visit that forum again. Even if this is just an experiment, you will chase away people like me who haven't been posting on this forum for eight years while you are doing it. And if CTRL-C/CTRL-V isn't moderated, those of us who have to quote such posts are all going to be irritated each and every time it happens, which will be a lot.

Maybe this is just doom and gloom. I doubt it will affect existing users much. But doing away with sigs for free accounts is already making me question whether I want to hang out in EN World when there are plenty of other forums that talk about the same stuff that will let me post a sig. Heck, the main reason I like to use it is so people can easily link to the games I am running. And there are other places I could run my campaigns, which I am already thinking about doing.

And although I may not have a "supporter" account, that doesn't mean I don't support EN World with my money. Not only have I bought stuff through banner ads with stuff I like before (increasing the value of EN World to its advertisers), I also buy EN World Publishing pdfs, which is direct money straight to them. Heck, I pre-ordered the entire War of the Burning Sky saga before it was even published.

Do you think I'm happy about the sig thing? I'm not. I really think it needs to be reconsidered.


----------



## Fifth Element (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus mentioned upthread that he has revised his position on sigs, and that they would be limited in some way for non-subscribers (no images, only a few lines presumably) rather than eliminated.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 9, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> Morrus mentioned upthread that he has revised his position on sigs, and that they would be limited in some way for non-subscribers (no images, only a few lines presumably) rather than eliminated.




One line, no links, from what I can tell.  I just tried to drastically reduce my .sig, and was disallowed "RCFG" with a link.

Funny, every .sig on this page would be disallowed, unless a shorter one with no links comes after mine.  All of you who hope to keep track of your games in a discreet .sig better pony up the dough or do so on another forum.

This leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


RC


----------



## CleverNickName (Apr 9, 2010)

I guess sigs aren't really all that important to me.  Usually, my sigs are just dorky little quips and sarcastic comments...if I bother to use one at all.  If folks have something particularly important to say, I assume they will put it in the body of the post.  (shrug)

But I can see the problem.  A lot of people have links to larger bodies of work here on the ENWorld forum stored in their sigs, and in the past I have found them incredibly useful for finding large amounts of material quickly (Nifft, I'm looking at you.)

I have read a few of the arguments back and forth.  I have to wonder...what does ENWorld _really_ gain by restricting sigs?


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

For those who use sigs as a storage mechanism for links, I have an alternative solution in mind.  Part of the long term goal is to bring profiles a little more front-and-center, and such links will be a perfect fit there (in fact there will be room for far more).  

There's some work to be done in that area, though, as right now profiles are not really very useful or functional.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 9, 2010)

That makes sense, and removes the sour taste.  Thanks, Morrus!


----------



## CleverNickName (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> For those who use sigs as a storage mechanism for links, I have an alternative solution in mind.  Part of the long term goal is to bring profiles a little more front-and-center, and such links will be a perfect fit there (in fact there will be room for far more).
> 
> There's some work to be done in that area, though, as right now profiles are not really very useful or functional.



Now why didn't I think of that?    That's a brilliant idea.  Our user profiles would be the perfect place to keep a library of one's own work, as well as lists of favorite posts and so forth.  It's a little cumbersome right now in its current state, but that would be a great feature to incorporate in the future.

Another idea for trimming those sigs would be to disable images/links, and impose a 100-character limit for sigs of non-registered users.  Not sure if that has been brought up or not; this thread is enormous.

Edit: You know, I really am an idiot.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 9, 2010)

CleverNickName said:


> I guess sigs aren't really all that important to me.  Usually, my sigs are just dorky little quips and sarcastic comments...if I bother to use one at all.  If folks have something particularly important to say, I assume they will put it in the body of the post.  (shrug)
> 
> But I can see the problem.  A lot of people have links to larger bodies of work here on the ENWorld forum stored in their sigs, and in the past I have found them incredibly useful for finding large amounts of material quickly (Nifft, I'm looking at you.)
> 
> I have read a few of the arguments back and forth.  I have to wonder...what does ENWorld _really_ gain by restricting sigs?



 MY NAME HAS BEEN INVOKED.

I'm among the most vocal sig detractors around here, and links are the one thing that I think *every* sig should be allowed to keep. Free or expensive, links add value for the community as a whole.

IMHO there should be limits on the number of visible characters in a sig, and there should be limits to formatting -- like no one should be allowed to use "moderator colors" -- and I personally find most images annoying, but links should be free.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

CleverNickName said:


> Now why didn't I think of that?  That's a brilliant idea. Our user profiles would be the perfect place to keep a library of one's own work, as well as lists of favorite posts and so forth. It's a little cumbersome right now in its current state, but that would be a great feature to incorporate in the future.




Yeah.  At the moment you can store picture albums and have a blog, plus some details about yourself and your game, plus asides like your friends list and the like.  I plan to make them far more useful (plus this ties into the GsG, so that when someone finds you on GsG and visits your profile, there's actually info there).

There are already privacy controls, of course.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> For those who use sigs as a storage mechanism for links, I have an alternative solution in mind.  Part of the long term goal is to bring profiles a little more front-and-center, and such links will be a perfect fit there (in fact there will be room for far more).
> 
> There's some work to be done in that area, though, as right now profiles are not really very useful or functional.



 In addition to beefing up profiles, you need some way to advertise the profile's content. It's rather foolish to expect everyone to click on every profile, hoping that there will be one useful link hidden among all the GsG info.

Or is your vision that people's sigs will say things like: "CHECK MY PROFILE FOR: Blog Updates - Custom PrC Designs - My Campaign World - Beer & Pretzels Rating Guide"?

Cheers, -- N


----------



## CleverNickName (Apr 9, 2010)

Nifft said:


> MY NAME HAS BEEN INVOKED.



Penguin summoning complete!

Who says that rituals don't work in 3.5E?  (ducks)


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

On the Profile front - if you have Twitter, enter your Twitter username in your EN World profile under "Edit Your Details" and then check out your profile.

Or check out mine for an example.


----------



## Sammael (Apr 9, 2010)

Don't have a Twitter account, but I just noticed the status thing and it seems to be working. Do you keep a history of past statuses (statii?) or just overwrite the current one?

EDIT: My community supporter image seems to have disappeared.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

Sammael said:


> EDIT: My community supporter image seems to have disappeared.




It did that days ago.  Along with everyone else's!


----------



## Piratecat (Apr 9, 2010)

The Twitter feed is pretty darn nifty! I'd rather have the user title where the status is, though.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 9, 2010)

CleverNickName said:


> Penguin summoning complete!
> 
> Who says that rituals don't work in 3.5E?  (ducks)



 Duck rituals still don't work.



Morrus said:


> On the Profile front - if you have Twitter, enter your Twitter username in your EN World profile under "Edit Your Details" and then check out your profile.
> 
> Or check out mine for an example.



 That box on the left is getting awfully tall.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## darjr (Apr 9, 2010)

the 't' icon in your profile just took me to the twitter home page, not your twitter account.

Hmmm, it would be cool to have it popup the latest tweet.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 9, 2010)

Piratecat said:


> I'd rather have the user title where the status is, though.




Indeed.....Especially since there are probably Moderators here that I don't know are Moderators!  

Kord help the newbies........


----------



## Sammael (Apr 9, 2010)

Nifft is a _troll_ and yet he has the community supporter tag. Burn the troll, I say!


----------



## Sammael (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It did that days ago.  Along with everyone else's!



Part of the experiment, or permanent? I rather liked the images...


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Duck rituals still don't work.
> 
> That box on the left is getting awfully tall.
> 
> Cheers, -- N





Oh, for Christ's sake, Nifft. Is it possible for you to say _anything_ positive?


----------



## Nonei (Apr 9, 2010)

FYI Morrus, I just tried unchecking the option for showing image on rep comments - I do like it much better with a green square instead of the nodding smileys - but the name of the person leaving the comment disappeared too.


----------



## Nifft (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Oh, for Christ's sake, Nifft. Is it possible for you to say _anything_ positive?



 Why yes, it is.

I'm giving you a UI critique, not attacking your personality. I'm not really seeing why you need to attack mine.

Ciao, -- N


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

Nonei said:


> FYI Morrus, I just tried unchecking the option for showing image on rep comments - I do like it much better with a green square instead of the nodding smileys - but the name of the person leaving the comment disappeared too.




I expect I'll change the smilies at some point - they're just the default graphic.  Probably to the green block.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Why yes, it is.
> 
> I'm giving you a UI critique, not attacking your personality. I'm not really seeing why you need to attack mine.




It's not an attack on your personality, Nifft, it's an observation on your posting habits concerning board-related features.  The impression I get is that you really don't like it here.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It's not an attack on your personality, Nifft, it's an observation on your posting habits concerning board-related features.  The impression I get is that you really don't like it here.




Jumping Jill!  I thought you were being funny.  I always thought of Nifft as being a "positive" person.  You have to be a positive person to herd penguins.

What must you think of me?


RC


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> It's not an attack on your personality, Nifft, it's an observation on your posting habits concerning board-related features. The impression I get is that you really don't like it here.




Nifft, I apologise.  I find this thread very hard work (along with most of the threads in Meta), and I took it out on you.  I did not mean anything personal.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Apr 9, 2010)

I agree with Nifft about the user info box on the left.  Many of the posts in this thread are taking up more than twice the vertical real estate actually needed, because of all the stuff on the left.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

The XP comment in-post graphic has been replaced with something less blatant.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 9, 2010)

I think Nifft is just being negative for spite's sake. 

EDIT: Piratecat here. Looks like the smileys got temporarily nuked, because it's only upon editing this post that I see the winking smiley! So you dodged the bullet this time, mister. *shakes little fist impotently*

Carry on.  

EDIT EDIT: And they're back. Phew!


----------



## Raven Crowking (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Nifft, I apologise.  I find this thread very hard work (along with most of the threads in Meta), and I took it out on you.  I did not mean anything personal.




Well, I'm not Nifft, but I do realize that you are trying to herd cats here.  

EN World is, AFAICT and IMHO, enormously popular, and there are a lot of us who care about the site.  It isn't that we want to trample your dreams; we want to make sure you don't misstep because you didn't see a pitfall.  If we said nothing, and the tone of the boards changed, then we would feel more than a little guilty for having said nothing.

Personally, I don't like all the changes that I am seeing, but there are some I do like.  I guess it's hard to focus on the ones I do like, because they don't generally seem to need comment.  But here goes:

*  I like the green thumbs up.
*  I like the status updates.
*  I like the idea of twitter links, although now that means I'm going to have to investigate twitter.
*  I like what I have heard of your plans for the profile page.
*  Once the profile page changes, I'll probably like the smaller sigs, too.

EDIT:  Oh yeah, and I like your current Avatar, too.  

EDIT EDIT:  Another thing; I like being an owlbear.....one of my favourite D&D monsters!  Is there any way to freeze XP without opting out?  


RC


----------



## Morrus (Apr 9, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> It isn't that we want to trample your dreams; we want to make sure you don't misstep because you didn't see a pitfall. If we said nothing, and the tone of the boards changed, then we would feel more than a little guilty for having said nothing.




Thanks. 

Just to give my perspective: there is _no_ change I can make which won't invite criticism; if I avoided making changes every time they were criticised, we'd still be using 2001 software and half a fraction of the functionality we have (and, I believe, a fraction of the users).

So my job is to recognise that every time I do something, threads will spring up telling me how it will spell the doom of EN World; and I have to learn no accept that that is the default reaction to a change. It'll be different people ever time, of course, but any change will cause it. 

This is where I have to say "Guys - I think I'm right. I've shepherded this place from 4,000 users to 90,000 users; we've had our ups and downs; we've had near deaths and disasters; but on the whole I think I've done OK, and over a decade I've learned a lot. Please trust me to know what I'm doing, and that because *you* don't like something doesn't mean that it won't work overall."

Sure, there will be mistakes. But, heck, we've been here an entire decade now; we can weather mistakes. And learn from them. 

But the site's gotta move on. I don't want to be running Ultimate Bulletin Board circa 1998 (does that software even exist any more? We used to use it), and this site now bears no resemblance to that incarnation of EN World. And in 10 years time, EN World will not bear any resemblance to _this_ infrastructure. 

Please, feel free to express your opinions; but also please be aware that at the other end of them is one guy. Not a corporation. Not a rich guy. Just someone who honestly does his best, and is a bit stubborn, and who's natural reaction to "do what I say or I'll leave with my whole $3" is to say "don't let the door hit you..."; which is wrong, but I'm human, and that's one of my foibles. Probably a fairly well known one by now! I do reign it in an _awful_ lot! 

And the point of this post?  After several hundred negative posts, I'm liable to lose my saintly demeanour and say something a bit snarky or critical in return.  I don't mean to, but man, it's ahrd work when you feel like you're being dogpiled - especially when all you wanted to do was what was best for everyone, even if some people think the changes aren't best for *them*!  So I apologise, but I can't promise I won't do it again.  Soooo maaaany poooosts to eeeveerryyy change evvveerrr..... the only way to avoid it is, literally, to have stuck with c1998 UBB.


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## Obryn (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Soooo maaaany poooosts to eeeveerryyy change evvveerrr..... the only way to avoid it is, literally, to have stuck with c1998 UBB.



1998 UBB sux.  You can consider my subscription cancelled if you move back to that POS. 

-O


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## Raven Crowking (Apr 9, 2010)

Hey, I understand that perspective.  I get it.  And I'm sorry if it sometimes seems as though I do not.

Overall, you are doing a great job.  Feel free to ignore anything I say if you think I'm wrong.  I'll try to avoid saying "I told you so" later if it turns out I'm right.

And, with my next paycheque I'm going to buy a prepaid credit card to become a supporting member.  This site has given a lot to me over the years, and I feel like I owe you some thanks.  

Keep up the good work!


RC


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## Fifth Element (Apr 9, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> EDIT EDIT:  Another thing; I like being an owlbear.....one of my favourite D&D monsters!  Is there any way to freeze XP without opting out?



No worries! When I get my Paragon subscription I'll make sure to hit you with negrep whenever you get too many XP!


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## Raven Crowking (Apr 9, 2010)

Fifth Element said:


> No worries! When I get my Paragon subscription I'll make sure to hit you with negrep whenever you get too many XP!




Good.

Owlbears are cooler than githyanki!  


RC


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Apr 9, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> Good.
> 
> Owlbears are cooler than githyanki!
> 
> ...




Is this just some clever ploy to get XP from the people who normally spite you?


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## sjmiller (Apr 9, 2010)

Morrus, I have been checking out some of the changes. I even went to my profile to add in my Twitter username. I noticed the profile also had a spot to put my age, so I figured why not. That is when I discovered I am lumped in with a very large age group known as 40 and Over. Is there any way that you could add a few more age groups on there? I mean sure, I am over 40, but I am not that far over!


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## CleverNickName (Apr 9, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> I agree with Nifft about the user info box on the left.  Many of the posts in this thread are taking up more than twice the vertical real estate actually needed, because of all the stuff on the left.



One way to fix that, which wouldn't be too terribly invasive, would be to remove the double-spacing between the user name, the status, the "registered user" tag, the avatar, etc., and to put the Yahoo!, Twitter, and other icons on a single line.  Might not look as clean, though.


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## Nonei (Apr 9, 2010)

CleverNickName said:


> One way to fix that, which wouldn't be too terribly invasive, would be to remove the double-spacing between the user name, the status, the "registered user" tag, the avatar, etc., and to put the Yahoo!, Twitter, and other icons on a single line. Might not look as clean, though.




I was just thinking that... and you could even put the name of the person's rank on the same line as the green dots.


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## renau1g (Apr 9, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> EDIT EDIT:  Another thing; I like being an owlbear.....one of my favourite D&D monsters!  Is there any way to freeze XP without opting out?
> 
> 
> RC




Too late...now you're a githyanki...


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## jaerdaph (Apr 9, 2010)

I'm happy with the changes and my subscription. 

You're doing a great job, Morrus - And thanks!


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## weem (Apr 9, 2010)

Just an idea of how the left column of the posts layout could be arranged (well, some new buttons too), if you were so inclined. This still has all the same functionality - though I pulled the thumbs up and warning icons into the post since their function is based on specific posts and not the details of a user.









This new layout is 273px tall (compared to the 'before' size of 423px tall). Here is a (shrunken for ease of viewing) overlay comparison...







Anyway, just having some fun here while I wait for family to arrive


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## Theo R Cwithin (Apr 9, 2010)

Is there a bullet-point list anywhere of changes made, maybe with a brief description of the intended behavior?

I'm finding it difficult to separate the threadbabble & opinionification from descriptions of actual forum changes.  It'd nice to know for certain in order to differentiate between real changes, and bugs or browser quirks.



{BTW, @Russ, all things considered, you seem to be handing the dogpiling admirably. I certainly wouldn't want to be in your shoes!   Thx for all your hard work.}


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## blargney the second (Apr 10, 2010)

I really like what weem did there!  Form & function, together at last.


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## Morrus (Apr 10, 2010)

weem said:


> Just an idea of how the left column of the posts layout could be arranged (well, some new buttons too), if you were so inclined. This still has all the same functionality - though I pulled the thumbs up and warning icons into the post since their function is based on specific posts and not the details of a user.




It's gorgeous!  

But it involves code, not photoshop graphics manipulation.  My skills there are limited at best!


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## Sammael (Apr 10, 2010)

Morrus, if you show us a sample of the code used to render the user avatar and profile information, I'm sure one of us codemonkeys can help you change the formatting to look like weem's proposed layout. It can be achieved in HTML by using DIVs or by using tables, and neither method is too difficult.

On a side note, the signature discussion prompted me to actually make a signature.


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## Orius (Apr 10, 2010)

Ugh, why are the pages stretched out so wide?  Is it from that new bar that's at the top of the page?  At least a third of the right side of the page is off the edge of my screen here, and it just feels too wide.  With the sidebar on the left, I have to scroll the page over a bit just to read the posts, and I have to do it every time I go to a new page.  It doesn't help that the computer I'm working with here doesn't have a higher resolution than 1024x600 either (which is kind of stupid, given that screens have been getting wider for a while0.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 10, 2010)

> Power clarifies, and absolute power clarifies absolutely.




I like it better switched up a bit.

_Clarity is power, and absolute clarity is absolute power._*


Its a perfect catchphrase for some kind of psionic character.

* It also works with Absolut.


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## airwalkrr (Apr 10, 2010)

*IMHO...*

Improving profile functionality is an inelegant solution to the loss of sigs. I have to say I agree with Nifft here (stop the presses!). HOWEVER, I will wait and see before casting final judgment. Morrus, I am glad that you are at least thinking about those of us who really miss sigs.

*On the other hand...*

You must realize you are going to have to bear the weight of someone who is trying to be responsible for an entire paradigm shift in the way forums are used at large, not just here on EN World, for this to become worthwhile. People on forums just don't consult profiles on a regular basis. You are going to have to give one helluva effort to make profiles worth visiting for most people to make them replace sigs. At which point I have to ask, *"Why bother?"*

Sigs work. For the vast majority of people who use them, they are used to link to the poster's other projects. I appreciate being able to do so at a glance rather than having to click someone's profile to see them. And if the only change this is going to result in is someone putting "See my Profile for X, Y, and Z," in his/her sig rather than allowing links in the sig, all it seems to be doing is adding an additional hurdle for the user to get at information. I don't see this as an advantage.

*But like I said...*

I will wait and see what you do with profiles. Maybe I'm wrong and profiles will be all the rage after you improve them.


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## crazy_cat (Apr 10, 2010)

Morrus - a request, since this seems to be a thread that has your attention and my query relates to changes to the site layout and promotion of subscription benefits and subscriber content etc.

Now that the layout has a bar at the top of each page listing 'older news', 'newsletter', and 'subscriber content' etc on coloured buttons can we lose the three stickied threads at the top of this forum about subscriber content (one of which was last posted to in December 09) as they are (IMHO) superfluos given the new 'advert' buttons and also very annoying as they push all the useful/live threads and content off the bottom of the screen.


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## Nifft (Apr 10, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Nifft, I apologise.  I find this thread very hard work (along with most of the threads in Meta), and I took it out on you.  I did not mean anything personal.



 Apology accepted.

Something I learned -- the hard way, like you're doing right now -- in the House Rules forum is that people who tell you things you don't necessarily want to hear are *doing you a service*. They are going out of their way to *help you*, and paying attention to your (often imperfect) ideas for free.

I'm sure following this you'll get lots of warm, fuzzy, supportive posts -- it's what we do when we see people who are feeling down, the forum equivalent of "Get Well Soon!" cards. These posts will feel better than criticism, just like those "Get Well Soon!" cards usually make you feel better than medicine.

- - -

Anyway, what to do about the vertical expanse. IMHO you should:

- Remove the custom user title. It was toy chrome before the tweetbar, and it's redundant chrome now.

- Remove the extra spacing between the user title and the tweetbar.

- Possibly remove the mandatory username prefix from the tweetbar. Since it's the only thing following the big username, it ought to be unambiguous, but we'll see how people use it.

- If you do remove the mandatory username from the tweetbar, possibly seed the message prompt with the string "... is ", so the user's tweetbar would by default look like:

*Nifft*
_... is an ugly duckling._

But if people deleted the seed string, they could use the tweetbar just like a custom title, or put something else in entirely:

*Nifft*
_... has cold feet._

You'd keep the functionality without wasting space, or duplicating toys.

Cheers, -- N


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## Dire Bare (Apr 11, 2010)

Nifft said:


> Something I learned -- the hard way, like you're doing right now -- in the House Rules forum is that people who tell you things you don't necessarily want to hear are *doing you a service*. They are going out of their way to *help you*, and paying attention to your (often imperfect) ideas for free.




I don't think that Morrus is frustrated with folks stating what they like or dislike about his various changes, or with the many suggestions that he may personally care for or not . . . . but rather with the often angry and even demanding tone that more than a few are using (which I don't think you are one of, Nifft, you just happened to post some negative stuff when Morrus reached a threshold).

Posters who say, "Hey, don't take that away!  I like that!" are fine.  Posters who get angry and promise to take their toys and go home if they don't get their way . . . . I'm not surprised that Morrus lost it for a moment there.  I would have long before that!

To be cliche, it's not WHAT you say but rather HOW you say it that is important.


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## Noumenon (Apr 11, 2010)

Orius said:


> Ugh, why are the pages stretched out so wide?  Is it from that new bar that's at the top of the page?  At least a third of the right side of the page is off the edge of my screen here, and it just feels too wide.  With the sidebar on the left, I have to scroll the page over a bit just to read the posts, and I have to do it every time I go to a new page.  It doesn't help that the computer I'm working with here doesn't have a higher resolution than 1024x600 either (which is kind of stupid, given that screens have been getting wider for a while0.




I second this one, I know I'm in the minority with my monitor at 800x600 but I need it that way for visibility issues.


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## Nifft (Apr 11, 2010)

Noumenon said:


> I second this one, I know I'm in the minority with my monitor at 800x600 but I need it that way for visibility issues.



 If you guys use AdBlock (a Firefox extension), you could remove one or two of the buttons.

Attached is a sample with two of the buttons removed. Even without the buttons, though, menu bar that starts with "My Account" is more than 800 px wide.

Cheers, -- N


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## Morrus (Apr 11, 2010)

*darjr* is going to make an attempt at creating weem's example layout in a test environment.  No promises, though!


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## tuxgeo (Apr 11, 2010)

Nifft said:


> If you guys use AdBlock (a Firefox extension), you could remove one or two of the buttons.
> 
> Attached is a sample with two of the buttons removed. Even without the buttons, though, menu bar that starts with "My Account" is more than 800 px wide.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



For what it's worth, I'm using 1024x768 resolution on a laptop, and I don't see 100% of the menu bar starting with "My Account" without scrolling -- the "Log Out" link doesn't show the terminal "t" on this screen, probably because of the quarter-inch (6 mm) of lateral padding between boxes. 
And the buttons: I see War of the Burning Sky and Space Fight!, but have to scroll to the right to see the Search and Send a Scoop buttons, let alone see the ad that appears beyond them to the right. (I don't have any of the side-columns disabled, so the "Gamers Online Now:" box displaces the row of buttons to the right, widening the entire page.)


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## Nifft (Apr 11, 2010)

tuxgeo said:


> For what it's worth, I'm using 1024x768 resolution on a laptop, and I don't see 100% of the menu bar starting with "My Account" without scrolling -- the "Log Out" link doesn't show the terminal "t" on this screen, probably because of the quarter-inch (6 mm) of lateral padding between boxes.
> And the buttons: I see War of the Burning Sky and Space Fight!, but have to scroll to the right to see the Search and Send a Scoop buttons, let alone see the ad that appears beyond them to the right. (I don't have any of the side-columns disabled, so the "Gamers Online Now:" box displaces the row of buttons to the right, widening the entire page.)



 I do disable the side column, and I have some other interface tweaks in place (reduced margins, for example). But those aren't recent changes and don't belong in this thread... I'd be happy to discuss my Stylish tweaks in another thread in Meta.

Cheers, -- N


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## Morrus (Apr 11, 2010)

Just a small quick addition.  Nothing major, but it took 2 seconds and involved uploading a single file so I figured "why not?"

EN Scryer


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## renau1g (Apr 11, 2010)

Ha! Now Nifft will have an easier time being a stalker, watch out BryonD  (j/k)

Pretty cool app Morrus.


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## Morrus (Apr 11, 2010)

For those of you concerned about the "favourite thread info storage" aspect, you can now save your favourite threads. When viewing a thread, simply click on the option in the dropdown Thread Tools menu. The top left of any individual post also has an "Add post to favorites" link for when you just want to bookmark the post, not the whole thread.

Your saved favourites will appear in a dropdown menu in the navbar ("Favorites", located second along, just after "My Account") as well as in your My Account area.


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## Nifft (Apr 11, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Just a small quick addition.  Nothing major, but it took 2 seconds and involved uploading a single file so I figured "why not?"
> 
> EN Scryer



 It's Stalkerriffic!

As an aside, can I make this Friends Online thing go away?

Thanks, -- N


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## Morrus (Apr 11, 2010)

Nifft said:


> It's Stalkerriffic!
> 
> As an aside, can I make this Friends Online thing go away?
> 
> Thanks, -- N




Oh, did I not do that right? Hang on; it's supposed to work like the other sideblocks.

[Edit - now?]


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## Nifft (Apr 11, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Oh, did I not do that right? Hang on; it's supposed to work like the other sideblocks.
> 
> [Edit - now?]



 Gone now.

Thanks, -- N


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## Jdvn1 (Apr 11, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Just a small quick addition.  Nothing major, but it took 2 seconds and involved uploading a single file so I figured "why not?"
> 
> EN Scryer



Cool indeed!


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## Dice4Hire (Apr 12, 2010)

The EnScryer is an excellent addition to the site.


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## Raven Crowking (Apr 12, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Too late...now you're a githyanki...




How did that happen so fast?  

I mean, a couple of XP shouldn't have changed my rank like that, should it?  Or did Morrus move owlbear up the line because owlbears are sexy?


RC


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## Nifft (Apr 12, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> How did that happen so fast?
> 
> I mean, a couple of XP shouldn't have changed my rank like that, should it?



 Some people give more XP than others.

If you genuinely want neg-rep, you might want to make a thread in Meta. Mods can be found there.

Cheers, -- N


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## Morrus (Apr 12, 2010)

Raven Crowking said:


> How did that happen so fast?
> 
> I mean, a couple of XP shouldn't have changed my rank like that, should it? Or did Morrus move owlbear up the line because owlbears are sexy?




Well you got XP from Piratecat and Jarjr, who both give 10 points at a time because they're admins.


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## JediSoth (Apr 12, 2010)

For the record, I'm viewing the site in Firefox 3.6.3 at a resolution of 1680 x 1050 right now (I think I use a different resolution at home) and everything looks great. I have a higher resolution at home, but the same browser and everything looks good at home, too.

The site is even mostly functional on my iPhone. Any problems with that I just assume are inherent to view a non-mobile site on a mobile version of Safari, since I don't encounter them on any of my PCs.


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## Raven Crowking (Apr 12, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Well you got XP from Piratecat and Jarjr, who both give 10 points at a time because they're admins.




Well, Piratecat fixed it.  

I don't mind getting XP, but I'd rather remain an owlbear.  Is it possible to freeze that?

Thanks!

RC


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## Maggan (Apr 12, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Well you got XP from Piratecat and Jarjr, who both give 10 points at a time because they're admins.




Ok, so those are the guys to suck up to ... I mean, show proper respect. Yes, proper respect ... that's the ticket from now on!



/M


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## tomBitonti (Apr 12, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Like I used to, you mean?
> 
> Because it is disastrous for my cash flow. I need regular, predictable amounts coming in monthly, not chunks at random times every year or three years. I need to be abel to look at the accounts and predict with a high degree of accuracy what money is coming in next month, and the month after that, and in 8 months' time.  Switching to a monthy subscription only was quite possibly the best decision I ever made regarding this website - it turned around the finances in an alomst miraculous way, and is the reason we're still here.




Hi,

I haven't ready through all twelve pages of posts to tell if this has been addressed.

The response, above, tells me that you don't have the financial controls to handle subscriptions.

I may have the actual accounting details wrong, but, I would not think that cash in advance should not appear as income until it posts.  (And, you would want to be careful about spending it because the subscriber might cancel, leaving you with an obligation.)  A posting of several months in advance would be handled as a debt (for the outstanding months; you don't actually get to spend cash in advance, accounting-wise), and income (some dollars every month).

A payment in advance is actually the most predictable payment that you can receive.

I would imagine that subscriptions worked out better because they are much easier on the pocketbook for your subscribers, who may have limited cashflow.  Subscriptions also work into psychology, where $3 * 12 is not viewed as high as $36 right now.  In that case, what was to your benefit was simply allowing subscriptions.  (There is also a matter of folks not paying attention to their subscriptions.  In my book, basing your business model on this would not be ethical.)

Thx!

TomB


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## Fifth Element (Apr 12, 2010)

tomBitonti said:


> I may have the actual accounting details wrong, but, I would not think that cash in advance should not appear as income until it posts.  (And, you would want to be careful about spending it because the subscriber might cancel, leaving you with an obligation.)  A posting of several months in advance would be handled as a debt (for the outstanding months; you don't actually get to spend cash in advance, accounting-wise), and income (some dollars every month).



That's correct. A subscription paid in advance would be "unearned revenue", which is equivalent to a debt on the balance sheet (since a cancelled subscription would cause the amount to be repayable). As each month passes, a monthly amount goes from being unearned to earned, and is considered revenue.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 12, 2010)

tomBitonti said:


> The response, above, tells me that you don't have the financial controls to handle subscriptions.




The issue is, as I see it, not one of accounting.  I think Morrus is a smart enough guy he could use QuickBooks or some sort of accounting/bookkeeping software to help with all that hard math.

The point of monthly subscriptions is psychological.  Ask Paizo how added monthly subscription options to nearly all of their various product lines has helped the bottom line.  Ask WotC how the subscriptions for D&D Insider has been incredibly profitable.  Ask any MMO (except those free-to-play ones experimenting with microtransactions).

Sure, WotC will let you pay ahead for 6-months to a full year for a slight discount, but they are a company of a sufficient size they can afford to do this to capture additional subscribers.  The main model is the monthly subscription for online services.  6-month and 12-month options are perks that can draw in the more recalcitrant who need to save that 5-10% before jumping on the bandwagon.

If you have a small $3 or $6 fee coming out of your bank account automatically every month, it's easy to budget for it and to forget about it . . . even during periods where you might find your use of EN World slacking off due to other interests competing for your time and attention.  If you instead gave Morrus $36 or $72 only once a year, it'd be a pretty easy thing to cancel for whatever reason . . . if you could even afford that big chunk of cash in the first place.

_Edit:  Just to be clear, I'm not with Tom Bitoni that this is an unethical practice.  I find the idea that a automatically renewing monthly subscription is somehow unethical to be laughable.
_
I paid one-year in advance for D&D Insider to save a few bucks, but when it came time to renew my finances were tight and so I let my subscription lapse.  I subscribe to World of Warcraft on a month-to-month basis because I can rarely afford to pay the big chunks necessarly for the 6-month or 12-month deals, and my subscription rarely lapses even when I don't play a lot of WoW in a given month . . . because I've budgeted that $16 and don't even give it much thought.


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## Janx (Apr 12, 2010)

tomBitonti said:


> I would imagine that subscriptions worked out better because they are much easier on the pocketbook for your subscribers, who may have limited cashflow.  Subscriptions also work into psychology, where $3 * 12 is not viewed as high as $36 right now.  In that case, what was to your benefit was simply allowing subscriptions.  (There is also a matter of folks not paying attention to their subscriptions.  In my book, basing your business model on this would not be ethical.)
> 
> Thx!
> 
> TomB




I'd consider that a gray area.  If EN was trying to make money off people who literally forgot to cancel their subscription (kind of like cashing in your dead grandma's SS checks), that would be wrong.

since people have proven to be forgetfull to renew subscriptions, the ongoing monthly charge is simply making it easier.  yes, it's still relying on some human psychology foibles in considering the annual versus monthly cost, but it's not the same as trying defraud somebody.  For some people, being able to pay $3 a month is a big difference from being able to spend $36 in one charge.  On an annual basis, it's the same money.  But on a per pay check basis, it's a world of difference.

I would think that an automated email reminder of the charge, or request to renew would help alleviate any under-handedness concerns by using clear communication.


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## Morrus (Apr 12, 2010)

tomBitonti said:


> (There is also a matter of folks not paying attention to their subscriptions. In my book, basing your business model on this would not be ethical.)




Nobody's doing that.  There are indications everywhere on ENW reminding you that your sub is active (or not active), and PayPal informs you by email every time you make a payment (unless you specifically ask them not to).


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## Dire Bare (Apr 12, 2010)

Another aspect of the cost and how we pay for our ENWorld subscriptions:

I used to purchase all my D&D books from Amazon to save 30%.  I've recently started purchasing my books from my FLGS as they have themselves starting supporting in-store RPG play, specifically D&D Encounters.

Should I be annoyed with my store because they choose not to give the the 30% discount that Amazon does?  Of course not!  Amazon offers that discount because their sales margins allow for it and it can actually increase their sales and profit.  My FLGS isn't in the same business class and would go under if it tried the same thing!

In the same light, I have no problem not getting a 6-month or 12-month discount on my EN World subscription.  I know that Morrus operates on a tighter margin than WotC does with D&D Insider, and I'm happy to pay full price each month with no discount available.  _Edit:  And eventually I'll upgrade from "Copper" to "Silver", even though the current extra perks aren't really useful to me personally._


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## Umbran (Apr 13, 2010)

tomBitonti said:


> A payment in advance is actually the most predictable payment that you can receive.




Yes and no.  It is the most predictable for the life of that subscription, but not beyond.  A one-time subscription fee is problematic and unreliable in terms of longer forecasting.

In general, the financial status of EN World sounds to have been "boom or bust".  Whenever Morrus says, "Hey, guys, we are in trouble!" there's a flush of cash.  And after that income reduced to a trickle.  And Morrus then doesn't know when the next flush of cash comes in.

One-time pay year-long subscriptions are kind of like that.  You don't want to make something like that auto-renew, but then Morrus cannot project if or when the money will come in next year.  When you've got tens or hundreds of people working on that basis, the cashflow becomes unreliable.


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## Dire Bare (Apr 13, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Yes and no.  It is the most predictable for the life of that subscription, but not beyond.  A one-time subscription fee is problematic and unreliable in terms of longer forecasting.
> 
> In general, the financial status of EN World sounds to have been "boom or bust".  Whenever Morrus says, "Hey, guys, we are in trouble!" there's a flush of cash.  And after that income reduced to a trickle.  And Morrus then doesn't know when the next flush of cash comes in.
> 
> One-time pay year-long subscriptions are kind of like that.  You don't want to make something like that auto-renew, but then Morrus cannot project if or when the money will come in next year.  When you've got tens or hundreds of people working on that basis, the cashflow becomes unreliable.




That's what Morrus is trying to do, move from a "boom/bust" method of income to something more predictable and constant.  Smart guy, that Morrus.

I guess the other option might be yearly (or quarterly, or whatever) "fund drives" like PBS or NPR does.  I sincerely hope Morrus never takes that route, as fund drives are sometimes perhaps necessary but almost always disruptive and annoying.  And certainly not predictable or something you can rely on.


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## Lanefan (Apr 13, 2010)

Why not have both?

The monthly subscription money goes to ongiong expenses and Morrus' upkeep; he can budget from these.

The lump-sum payments (from, among others, people like me who will not use paypal but are willing to pay in other ways) go into a capital improvement fund, for things like hardware upgrades.

Lanefan


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## tuxgeo (Apr 14, 2010)

Many thanks to the button-designer -- was that you, Weem? -- for making the "stacked" buttons, such as 

Older
News

(and) 

Subscribers
Content

which now serve to make that button-bar narrow. 
Likewise thanks to Morrus for putting them in place; and for whoever it was who originally suggested that move in the first place! (I'm still looking for the original post to give XP, but thought I'd post this first.) 
It does help the readability.

Edit: I checked the thread in Meta, as mudbunny suggests below. weem did make the buttons (have left XP for mudbunny's original double-text-row idea)


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## mudbunny (Apr 14, 2010)

Check the thread in meta.


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## Orius (Apr 15, 2010)

tuxgeo said:


> Many thanks to the button-designer -- was that you, Weem? -- for making the "stacked" buttons, such as
> 
> Older
> News
> ...




Yes, it's much improved now.  I see the menu bar or whatever was tweaked a bit too, but so far I haven't had problems using it.  I understand websites need to change their look every so often, but it does annoy me when a site changed everything around so radically that it becomes difficult to find things.  At least that hasn't happened here (unlike say, the recent changes at YouTube which I'm finding highly frustrating).


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## weem (Apr 15, 2010)

tuxgeo said:


> ....Many thanks to the button-designer -- was that you, Weem?....
> 
> Edit: I checked the thread in Meta, as mudbunny suggests below. weem did make the buttons.....




Thank you


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## CleverNickName (Apr 16, 2010)

The new layout is looking stellar, guys.  Well done.


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## Nonei (Apr 16, 2010)

CleverNickName said:


> The new layout is looking stellar, guys.  Well done.



Agreed


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## Dannyalcatraz (Apr 16, 2010)

I can live with the new forum icons, but personally, I find some of them a bit indistinct: a thread that is "Hot" with new posts that "you have posted in" is pretty busy.

Then again, I'm looking at this in 1920x1080.


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## Nifft (Apr 16, 2010)

The new icons are nice looking. Suggestions to make them more distinct and easier on the reader:

- Put each of the four add-on symbols in the corners instead of in the middle. You want to violate the icon's borders so the add-on symbols are visible while the reader scans the thread title. Right now, the green check in the middle of a bunch of green & blue triangles isn't visible unless you look right at the icon.

- I'd suggest that the checkbox go in the upper-right, the 'fire-drop' go in the lower-left, the lock go in the lower-right, and the 'moved' arrow go in the upper-left. Keep the symbols in these places even when there's just one of them. Ought to make it easier on the designer, too.

Cheers, -- N


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## CleverNickName (Apr 16, 2010)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> I can live with the new forum icons, but personally, I find some of them a bit indistinct: a thread that is "Hot" with new posts that "you have posted in" is pretty busy.



(shrug)  I didn't think they were all that bad, really.  Seems intuitive enough, but this is just one nerd's opinion.


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## pneumatik (Apr 16, 2010)

One nice thing about displaying the xp comments in the post is that it allows someone like me comment on something several pages back in a thread after the topic has moved on. It's a way to make marginalia comments, essentially.

Hmmm ... now that I've written that out, it doesn't sound quite as awesome as I thought it would. If people want to respond to xp comments than a thread can get very complicated and messy. Still, I find the ability to comment on older posts in a thread fulfilling.

EDIT: I stole the term, and perhaps the entire way of thinking about xp, from the marginalia at lumpley.com

EDIT 2: The post author's way to respond to xp comments would be through edits, I guess. From here we're only a step or two from creating a completely separate sub-thread based on a post. Like forking, only the post remains in place. Then you could use some sort of evaluation system (xps, maybe, or number of posts, or a non-xp ranking system) that could elevate the sub-thread to its own thread, again like an _ex post facto_ (pardon the pun) fork. I'm not asking for any of this, I'm just thinking out loud.


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## Orius (Apr 17, 2010)

I admit I miss the old Hot Thread icon.  Seeing a world engulfed in fire I think was a very appropriate icon for some of the really active and flame heavy threads.


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## Janx (Apr 18, 2010)

I happened to try loading up enworld on my iPhone to check a thread, and saw it was enabled for Tapatalk, an iPhone app (I hadn't heard of it) to use the forums.

Very nice, now that I installed it.  Sadly the other 4 forums I use (not RPGs) aren't supported in it.   Darn those people who don't use vBulletin!

I mention this, because it is a viable solution for iPhone users, rather than reformatting/skinning the page if that takees work.

one sad side effect is I can't give XP (or apparently see it as comments)


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## Nebten (Apr 23, 2010)

Each time I go to sign up as a subscriber, I find out something that irritates me. (Some of this may have already been brought up, but I don't feel like going through 40 pages to see if it hasn't or not.)

The first time was if you canceled your subscription, to renew it would have been 6 bucks instead of $3. That just erked me the wrong the way. I mean why do this? Its a little bit of bait and switch. But I see that is no longer the case.

Now this time around, you are taking away things that were offered before and putting them behind lock and key. Again, not cool.

It is hard to support something I don't agree with.


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## Raven Crowking (Apr 23, 2010)

Well, as I said upthread, I feel I owe Morrus something, so here I am, extra XP functional.

EDIT:  How does the negrep work?  Have you decided not to include that feature now?  (If so, good decision.)

EDIT to the EDIT:  I also cannot get to the subscriber content.  Help?  *Working now!  Thanks to the Mods of EN World!*


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## MichaelSomething (Apr 23, 2010)

Nebten said:


> Each time I go to sign up as a subscriber, I find out something that irritates me. (Some of this may have already been brought up, but I don't feel like going through 40 pages to see if it hasn't or not.)
> 
> The first time was if you canceled your subscription, to renew it would have been 6 bucks instead of $3. That just erked me the wrong the way. I mean why do this? Its a little bit of bait and switch. But I see that is no longer the case.
> 
> ...




If you hang around in the META forum, you would know that is the tactic Morrus uses to combat the problem of people who subscribe for one month, download all the subscriber goodies, and then let it lapse.  Some people will even subscribe, download it all, and then cancel their subscriptions without even paying for the one month!  Apparently, that method is much easier to implement then limiting how many things one can download in a month.   

Seriously, you're like the third person who asked this question.  Morrus, you seriously need to compile all of your ideas/concepts/explanations into some type of FAQ or something like that.


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## Woas (Apr 24, 2010)

What about a mode, where you pay us like a dollar a month, and just make the website sort of plain with very basic icons. Like a red notepad if its a 'hot' thread. Or not even red cause that would be sort of embellishing. But like a notepad with a black checkmark if we've posted in it. And the website is all white field with black lettering and it just says ENWorld.org on it. And there's no status or comments or XPs or signatures or anything, just a user name. Is there an option for that?


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