# Star Wars: reboot/remake?



## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 13, 2020)

We know sci-fi get old very bad. Today youngest generations miss current technology we can't see in the vintage sci-fi, for example the mobiles. 

A reboot of a famous IP as Star Wars is very risky. We know is one of the biggest cash-cows in the enternaiment industry. A new mistake and the fandom could be really angry.

The time travel is canon in SW, and Disney can allow the idea of the multiverse. 









						World Between Worlds
					

The World Between Worlds, also known as Vergence Scatter, was a mystical plane within the Force that served as a collection of doors and pathways existing between time and space, linking all moments in time together. The World Between Worlds, otherwise referred to as the Vergence Scatter, was...




					starwars.fandom.com
				




A reboot could allow to "update" the high-tech, for example adding nanontechnology and also digital immortality/mind uploading. The lore could allow more force-users factions, not only jedis and siths. The yuuzhan vong could be rewritten and they could use inorganic technology but AI and robots. Maybe a rogue faction found the way to travel time and they started the conquest of the galaxy before Palpatine was born. 

How should be the reboot to be forgiven this sacrilege by the fandom?


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## R_J_K75 (Jun 13, 2020)

I always thought it might be cool to see the OT or at the very least Ep IV re-imagined.  Pretty much a scene by scene re-make perhaps with minor changes to dialogue but just change all the imagery, costumes, planets, props, and vehicles would be different.  Sure millions of purists would cry out in pain but too bad.


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## Morrus (Jun 13, 2020)

Or just make a new film.


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## R_J_K75 (Jun 13, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Or just make a new film.




Tried that already with Ep 1-3 and 7-9, they may have been profitable but they werent very good IMO.  I agree with the end of the Skywalker saga exploring a whole new storyline might be enough to salvage the franchise.


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## Morrus (Jun 13, 2020)

R_J_K75 said:


> Tried that already with Ep 1-3 and 7-9



No, I mean a new film


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 13, 2020)

Or hell, reboot something that has been dormant for a long time, like Flash Gordon. 

I would love to see a very very clearly marketted AU version of star wars, even as a cartoon, using more of the original and otherwise discarded visual ideas and names and such. 

Like, The Adventures of Anakin Starkiller and Luke Skywalker, with stormtroopers that have lightsabers and big shields, and rebels with lightsabers and blaster pistols, etc, etc. 

But I have no interest in an actual reboot of Star Wars.


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## Legatus Legionis (Jun 13, 2020)

.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 14, 2020)

Would prefer a new story. You can evoke the OT using things like X wings or Jedi vs Sith in the past/future. 

 You don't need to literally copy a lot of the OT though just making things bigger and "better".


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## Morrus (Jun 14, 2020)

Maybe I should rephrase. Not new film. New franchise.


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## Mercurius (Jun 14, 2020)

I think the way to go would be to set a new story in a different section of the galaxy, far far away. Star Wars vibe and tropes, but no or little connection to the main story. I'm not a fan (at all) of rebooting iconic characters with new actors. The new Trek films were OK on their own, and the actors did as well as they could be expected to do, but Leonard Nimoy _is _Spock; William Shatner _is _Kirk, etc. 

Hollywood needs to be more daring. OK, utilize established IP to leverage sales, but do something different. Of course my preference would be something new new...but attempts at that are rarely successful.

How about this for a story base: A few Jedi survived Order 66 and fled to the other side of the galaxy, establishing a new Jedi order. It is 30ish years later and a new threat emerges. Voila, there you go.


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## Eltab (Jun 14, 2020)

Setting a movie during the Prequel Trilogy, the story interacting with the (deliberate but secret) sabotage of the Republic's institutions.  The heroes overcome the threat du jour even though The Authorities did little / nothing to help.  All-new characters, never goes close to Tattooine or Trantor err excuse me the capital planet/city.  Maybe cameo Tarkin in a low level of responsibility, chafing at orders that prevent decisive action ... and ignores them to follow his own judgement.  (This is when the bad guys start chasing the heroes for serious.)


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## ccs (Jun 14, 2020)

Morrus said:


> Maybe I should rephrase. Not new film. New franchise.




As in new SW franchise?  Or not SW at all?


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## ccs (Jun 14, 2020)

Mercurius said:


> I'm not a fan (at all) of rebooting iconic characters with new actors. The new Trek films were OK on their own, and the actors did as well as they could be expected to do, but Leonard Nimoy _is _Spock; William Shatner _is _Kirk, etc.




Have you actually thought this stance through though?
What about for characters like Robin Hood, Hamlet, etc?  Flash Gordon?  James Bond?  Assorted comic book characters, say Batman?
I mean, without recasting these rolls you don't tell any new stories of these characters/expose them to new audiences.
And what happens when the actor playing one of these rolls quits, gets fired, ages out of the role (seriously, Arnies NOT the Terminator he once was....), or dies - but you've still got stories to tell?


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## Zardnaar (Jun 14, 2020)

ccs said:


> Have you actually thought this stance through though?
> What about for characters like Robin Hood, Hamlet, etc?  Flash Gordon?  James Bond?  Assorted comic book characters, say Batman?
> I mean, without recasting these rolls you don't tell any new stories of these characters/expose them to new audiences.
> And what happens when the actor playing one of these rolls quits, gets fired, ages out of the role (seriously, Arnies NOT the Terminator he once was....), or dies - but you've still got stories to tell?




 They're popular due to the characters. 

 OT 3 are popular for a reason, recasting them is a lot more problematic.

Also see Solo. People didn't really buy into Gan being recast even if the actor did a decent enough job IMHO.


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## ccs (Jun 14, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> They're popular due to the characters.




Yes, that's my point.  The roles occasionally require recasting.  
And thank God for that or the only Batman we'd have movie wise would be his 1st pretty lame seriel from the 1940s. Hundreds of years worth of people would never experience Shakespeare beyond (maybe) reading it.   Etc etc etc



Zardnaar said:


> OT 3 are popular for a reason, recasting them is a lot more problematic.




Yes, I agree, Hamill, Fisher & Ford were well cast.  They're definitely a part of what made OT SW popular.  And Ford even more so as Indiana Jones. 
But they're actors, playing characters.   So if one can accept that 007 & Batman get recast every few years?  Then one should be able to accept that Han, Luke, Leia, & yes, Indy will all someday be played by different actors on screen.
The trick is finding actors who can pull off the look & chemistry. 

And then?  Just as with Bond & Batman, & whoever, we'll debate until the end of time who played the character better.



Zardnaar said:


> Also see Solo. People didn't really buy into Han being recast even if the actor did a decent enough job IMHO.




I did.
The main problems with Solo were 1) the guy they chose _didn't_ do a good enough job in many peoples opinion.  2) Solo was a pretty poor movie.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 14, 2020)

I don't want a SW reboot any time soon, _but..._

If it did happen, and it was happening right now, I'd ignore any issues of gender or ethnicity, and cast the actors that I feel fit the feel and attitude and tone of each character best. 

so, 

Han - Gina Torres
Luke - Harder to say, because they gotta be young and fresh and new. Look-wise, I'd put out a call for new talent and basically look for cute, young, big wide grin and wide eyes, fairly small. 
Leia - I'd basically be looking for someone like Zendaya, a younger Emma Stone, etc. Pretty, snarky, good at subtle emoting, small but good at fiery, etc. 
Obi-Wan - Ming Na Wen or Oded Fehr. 
Tarkin - Herzog
Vader - no change
Lando - Donald Glover

Zendaya might also make a good Luke. 

I'd also probably make the whole story more gay. 

But I also just...wouldn't do it, because why reboot Star Wars?


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## pming (Jun 14, 2020)

Hiya!

"Absolutely not, under any circumstances should there be a 'reboot' of Star Wars".

Why?
Reasons.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 14, 2020)

My opinion is it would be better with a hyperealistic CGI because real actors get old. 

Disney can use lots of space operas by Marvel Comics, like the alien legion or the sword of the swashbucklers. Even they could talk with Paizo to produce its own Starfinder. With the open licence Disney doesn't need the lore of the Golarion/Pact Worlds. 

Star Wars isn't only laser guns and duels of lightsabers but also the original trilogy was about the relations between the young adult and the patriarchal figures, symbolized by the jedis and Dark Vader. Everybody can create their own superheroes, sometimes even too powerful and powerful. Obin-wan Kenobi and master Yoda were popular because they had got something special. They were wise, and no character can be really wise but the writter/author is also. Public notices when scripters try to show characters with wise words but it's only annoying propaganda. These characters are easy to be parodied when you notice their weak points.

My advice is the first step should be some "what if" comic-strip miniserie. Later videogames, the next a cartoon serie, and finally a blockbuster animated movie. 

* Other option would be a "brother IP", something like Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms, with the same races and creatures but different stories. 

Or a different timeline where a group of time-travelers killed Anakin Skywalkers when he was still a baby.


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## Mercurius (Jun 14, 2020)

ccs said:


> Have you actually thought this stance through though?
> What about for characters like Robin Hood, Hamlet, etc?  Flash Gordon?  James Bond?  Assorted comic book characters, say Batman?
> I mean, without recasting these rolls you don't tell any new stories of these characters/expose them to new audiences.
> And what happens when the actor playing one of these rolls quits, gets fired, ages out of the role (seriously, Arnies NOT the Terminator he once was....), or dies - but you've still got stories to tell?




Yes, I have. I say, move on. We don't need another Captain Kirk or Han Solo. There are other people to tell stories about.

All of the names you mentioned were literary figures brought to film. Star Trek and Star Wars were films first and foremost, and the iconic characters forever linked with specific actors. We can discuss who the best Bond is, or which version of Batman we prefer. But there is no single actor who "made" the character. Harrison Ford "made" Han Solo; so too with William Shatner and James T Kirk, or Patrick Stewart and Jean-Luc Picard.


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## MarkB (Jun 14, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> We know sci-fi get old very bad. Today youngest generations miss current technology we can't see in the vintage sci-fi, for example the mobiles.



Sure, and the future as seen from now looks very different from the future envisioned in the 70s, 80s or 90s. (And in 20 years' time we'll look back and laugh at the blatant anachronisms of the futures we're imagining now). That's a reasonable argument for rebooting a franchise like, say, Bladerunner or Aliens.

But Star Wars isn't a science fiction franchise set in the future. It's a science fantasy franchise set long ago, in a galaxy far, far away. There's no need to update it by giving everyone smartcomlinks or slick high-definition GUIs on their starships.


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## Eltab (Jun 14, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> If it did happen, and it was happening right now, I'd ignore any issues of gender or ethnicity, and cast the actors that I feel fit the feel and attitude and tone of each character best.



Star Wars never wrote its own 'deep history', but thinking about the process of going from one homeworld of origin to galaxy-spanning race plus meeting aliens, means _SW society is inherently diverse._
Repeated scenes where the actors are of Amerind, Aborigine, Oriental, Arabic, Western, &c origin and the characters never notice any difference between appearances nor say anything about it, would be its own powerful statement.  (See also Uhura from Star Trek.)
IRL, I would prepare a one-page "press release" describing in very broad terms what likely happened, with a little bit of astronomy thrown in.  When people ask "But what about...?" I refer them to the release.  Repeatedly.  Don't get drawn into ambushes or controversies; they never help sell tickets.

The only two characters for whom looks matter is Luke and Leia: when he eventually says to her "... and my sister has it ..." the actors had better 'look like family', not look like their forefathers spent generations on opposite ends of the galaxy - because instead of being a big reveal and deep emotional moment, the audience will break up laughing.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 14, 2020)

Eltab said:


> Star Wars never wrote its own 'deep history', but thinking about the process of going from one homeworld of origin to galaxy-spanning race plus meeting aliens, means _SW society is inherently diverse._
> Repeated scenes where the actors are of Amerind, Aborigine, Oriental, Arabic, Western, &c origin and the characters never notice any difference between appearances nor say anything about it, would be its own powerful statement.  (See also Uhura from Star Trek.)
> IRL, I would prepare a one-page "press release" describing in very broad terms what likely happened, with a little bit of astronomy thrown in.  When people ask "But what about...?" I refer them to the release.  Repeatedly.  Don't get drawn into ambushes or controversies; they never help sell tickets.
> 
> The only two characters for whom looks matter is Luke and Leia: when he eventually says to her "... and my sister has it ..." the actors had better 'look like family', not look like their forefathers spent generations on opposite ends of the galaxy - because instead of being a big reveal and deep emotional moment, the audience will break up laughing.



Yeah, even if they weren’t siblings you want them to be foils, and similar appearance helps that. 

But again...I don’t want a reboot lol

Although an alternate version, I’d love.

Put that thing in the public domain and watch people make beautiful things with it!


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 14, 2020)

And what do you think about a "spin-off" anything about "same universe but a different galaxy"?


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 14, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> And what do you think about a "spin-off" anything about "same universe but a different galaxy"?



so like, same physics and the FOrce, but like no ties to jedi and sith, entirely different philosophies, etc? 

IDK, seems easier to just make a new thing, at that point, no?

Could be fun, thogh


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## Legatus Legionis (Jun 14, 2020)

.


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## Ryujin (Jun 14, 2020)

I'm with Morrus; Space Opera: A New Franchise.

The Force isn't unique in Science Fantasy. Magic and Psionics have been part of it for as long as it has existed. If someone wants to attach the new universe to some sort of property, there are many out there begging for it. From role playing there's Traveller (only a Kickstarter rip-off attempt currently exists), the actual game called Space Opera (old FGU property), Starfinder (built-in Space Magic), and many more. From novels, EE "Doc" Smith's "Lensmen" series still hasn't had a faithful production.

... or just make up something new.


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## trappedslider (Jun 14, 2020)

Ryujin said:


> I'm with Morrus; Space Opera: A New Franchise.
> 
> The Force isn't unique in Science Fantasy. Magic and Psionics have been part of it for as long as it has existed. If someone wants to attach the new universe to some sort of property, there are many out there begging for it. From role playing there's Traveller (only a Kickstarter rip-off attempt currently exists), the actual game called Space Opera (old FGU property), Starfinder (built-in Space Magic), and many more. From novels, EE "Doc" Smith's "Lensmen" series still hasn't had a faithful production.
> 
> ... or just make up something new.



From the d20 future book:

_Star*Drive_, a political space opera taking placed in the 26th century. It is a remake of _Alternity_ campaign setting of the same name.
_Star Law_, a remake of the popular 1980s _Star Frontiers_ space opera-based role-playing game. The mini-setting is cited to use material from _Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn_ and _Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space_. (this would be slightly better as a tv show imo)
_From the Dark Heart of Space_, a Fifth Element style setting inspired by the eternal struggle between good and evil, with a touch of the Cthulhu Mythos.


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## ccs (Jun 14, 2020)

Mercurius said:


> Yes, I have. I say, move on. We don't need another Captain Kirk or Han Solo. There are other people to tell stories about.
> 
> All of the names you mentioned were literary figures brought to film. Star Trek and Star Wars were films first and foremost, and the iconic characters forever linked with specific actors. We can discuss who the best Bond is, or which version of Batman we prefer. But there is no single actor who "made" the character. Harrison Ford "made" Han Solo; so too with William Shatner and James T Kirk, or Patrick Stewart and Jean-Luc Picard.




What about Hamlet?  Not a literary figure.  Thousands & thousands of actors beyond the 1st guy have played that role on stage & now screen .  Almost always telling the exact same story.
You don't think future audiences deserve Hamlet?


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## Kaodi (Jun 14, 2020)

There is definitely much virtue to be had in starting a whole new IP. Old franchises get bogged down with outdated assumptions. I tend to think we need a new Star Trek too because a LOT has happened since the 70s that is fundamentally incompatible with the Star Trek account of this time period. 

I think if I were to chart a path for Star Wars going forward though that was not just "Well, the main story is effed," I would bring in some great threat or change from another galaxy - one that broadened everyone's horizons and perhaps made the Unknown Regions of the primary galaxy eminently Known, something that would have to be dealt with simultaneously. Not the Yuuzhan Vong though - they were dumb, and their slaughter was dumb. The only way to make the make a story about laser sword wielding monks make sense going forward is if the Jedi and the Sith turn out to not be the be all and end all of the Force. That _does not_ mean that a "new threat" needs to be more powerful or destructive than the Sith were. But it does need to introduce a new perspective.


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## Ryujin (Jun 14, 2020)

trappedslider said:


> From the d20 future book:
> 
> _Star*Drive_, a political space opera taking placed in the 26th century. It is a remake of _Alternity_ campaign setting of the same name.
> _Star Law_, a remake of the popular 1980s _Star Frontiers_ space opera-based role-playing game. The mini-setting is cited to use material from _Star Frontiers Alpha Dawn_ and _Zebulon's Guide to Frontier Space_. (this would be slightly better as a tv show imo)
> _From the Dark Heart of Space_, a Fifth Element style setting inspired by the eternal struggle between good and evil, with a touch of the Cthulhu Mythos.




I've run both Star*Drive and Star Frontiers campaigns, but thought I was already going too heavily on the RPG side. There's also Other Suns and Shatterzone as possibilities.


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## Ryujin (Jun 14, 2020)

ccs said:


> What about Hamlet?  Not a literary figure.  Thousands & thousands of actors beyond the 1st guy have played that role on stage & now screen .  Almost always telling the exact same story.
> You don't think future audiences deserve Hamlet?




Put a pin in that and I'll come back to talk about that one in 400-or-so years


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## Zardnaar (Jun 14, 2020)

If I did new Star Wars I would try and tie it back to the OT/PT in some way but without copying them.

Say you made Star Wars:Top Gun. I would kr use X-Wings vs TIE Fighters even if the force wasn't such a thing.

If you time shift it to something like the Old Republic Jedi vs Sith makes sense.

If I wanted to timeshift it and not use Jedi or Sith I would use a location like Coruscant.

You still need to tie your story to the larger Star Wars universe. Other force using traditions can absolutely be part of that and we've seen at least one in canon, heaps in the old EU.

I wouldn't mess with established characters to much. Make new ones it's easy enough.

You don't need to know much except Coruscant is the galactic capital. If it's not you need to explain it to some extent. That's where TFA failed where they had Starkiller base blow up Hosnian Prime and 4 other planets.

Why care, we've seen planets blown up before, and there was no emotional impact like Tarkin and Vader blowing up Alderaan and making Leia watch and her reaction.

Good Star Wars needs emotion, not just the actors going through the routines. By emotion I mean something like "I am your father", Han and Leia, or Obi Wan and Vader on Mustafar, Vader and Luke on Deathstar. Carrie Fisher selling the destruction of her world to the audience.

Even you are Revan works. Mandalorian is pulling it off with the main character and baby Yoda.

2/3 of the ST movies just imitate better stories. Hell Solo's better than all 3 of them IMHO. At least it was decent and original.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 15, 2020)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> The Mandalorian was a god example of a Star Wars story that does not include the Skywalker Saga characters (or at least not in season 1).
> 
> Rogue One looked at the story behind A New Hope.
> 
> ...



No grey Jedi. Ever. 

Please for the love of the force no grey Jedi.


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## Mercurius (Jun 15, 2020)

ccs said:


> What about Hamlet?  Not a literary figure.  Thousands & thousands of actors beyond the 1st guy have played that role on stage & now screen .  Almost always telling the exact same story.
> You don't think future audiences deserve Hamlet?




I'd consider Hamlet a literary figure. He is primarily the creation of a playwright, not a actor. There is no single, definitive Hamlet actor that crafted Hamlet. 

Anyhow, I consider it to be creatively lazy to continue to re-hash old IP and characters, and almost inevitably leads to diminishing returns.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 15, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> No grey Jedi. Ever.
> 
> Please for the love of the force no grey Jedi.




 They've already brought them back I think. Ahsoka Tano is one iirc. 

 What's your idea of grey Jedi though?

1. Uses light and dark side
2. Has Jedi trading but doesn't join or l eaves the order
3. Any force user that's not a member of the Jedi order or Sith.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 15, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> They've already brought them back I think. Ahsoka Tano is one iirc.
> 
> What's your idea of grey Jedi though?
> 
> ...



1. Is the only thing that has ever been a “grey Jedi”. Ahsoka is not grey. She is firmly in the Light.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 15, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> 1. Is the only thing that has ever been a “grey Jedi”. Ahsoka is not grey. She is firmly in the Light.




Grey Jedi can mean someone who has left the order and hasn't gone to the dark side.

I think Filoni said she was grey Jedi, could be wrong.

I usually use it in the context of someone who's had Jedi training and hasn't gone to the dark side. Ventress for example isn't one and she's not Sith (but wanted to be one). I would call her a dark Jedi although not sure if they use that term.

Shorthand for Darkside Jedi I suppose.


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## MarkB (Jun 15, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Grey Jedi can mean someone who has left the order and hasn't gone to the dark side.
> 
> I think Filoni said she was grey Jedi, could be wrong.
> 
> ...



Personally, I'd just like some kind of Force tradition which allows you to still be a good person without having to achieve Vulcan-like levels of emotional suppression or give up all personal connections.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 15, 2020)

MarkB said:


> Personally, I'd just like some kind of Force tradition which allows you to still be a good person without having to achieve Vulcan-like levels of emotional suppression or give up all personal connections.




 They had them but they got purged. Shrugs.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 15, 2020)

Gray Jedi
					

The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council...




					starwars.fandom.com
				




---

The first movie was in 1977. This means in 2027 will be the 50th anniversary, and after it's enough time to allow themself a reboot. 

We have other option: The prophets and seers who can see the future are canon in SW. This means someones could see different futures, and then Disney could publish a new serie about these "prophets' files" where a group of arcaheologists search a old holocron with the files of these prophets. These files were created by the cooperation of the prophets seing the different possible futures, and telepath reading the mind and sending those mental images to a "holo-scribe", other force-adept with telekinetic powers being used with holograpic technology to "record" those prophecies as 3D movies. This trick would allow to be canon but alter the canon and almost nobody would be angry. An example of alternate timeline would be the galaxy for the age of the Rakata infinity empire being conquered by the yuuzan vong. 

* SW is a fabulous franchise, but after the batle of Yavin (the first Deathstar is destroyed) almost all the main events in the galaxy are linked to Skywalker family and company. And jedi may have got too much prominence.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 15, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> Gray Jedi
> 
> 
> The term Gray Jedi, or Gray, had two meanings. First, it was used by Jedi and Sith to describe Force-users who walked the line between the light and dark sides of the Force without surrendering to the dark side, and second, it described Jedi who distanced themselves from the Jedi High Council...
> ...




I think it's because of the novel Heir to the Empire in the old EU.

Star Wars was basically dead and it started the revival in the 90s. Everything since owes it's existence to that novel.

It was the sequel to RotJ. It it remained that way for 23 years.

Even now almost 30 years later they've added elements of it back into the new canon.

For example Thrawn. He's a fan favorite shrugs.


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## Deset Gled (Jun 15, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> No grey Jedi. Ever.
> 
> Please for the love of the force no grey Jedi.




In all seriousness, why are you so opposed to this?  I didn't think this was a common enough thing to need to be specifically excluded.  

Putting on my Old Man Hat: Back in my day we called this the Raccoon King.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 15, 2020)

Deset Gled said:


> In all seriousness, why are you so opposed to this?  I didn't think this was a common enough thing to need to be specifically excluded.
> 
> Putting on my Old Man Hat: Back in my day we called this the Raccoon King.



It’s a common trope amongst EU fans, to the point where many of them consider it to simply be the truth of the Star Wars galaxy that Grey Jedi are a thing.

I’m opposed to it because it changes, detrimentally, the nature of the Force and of the story being told in Star Wars.


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## Ryujin (Jun 15, 2020)

Deset Gled said:


> In all seriousness, why are you so opposed to this?  I didn't think this was a common enough thing to need to be specifically excluded.
> 
> Putting on my Old Man Hat: Back in my day we called this the Raccoon King.




Just go Grey Lensmen and be done, says I.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 16, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> It’s a common trope amongst EU fans, to the point where many of them consider it to simply be the truth of the Star Wars galaxy that Grey Jedi are a thing.
> 
> I’m opposed to it because it changes, detrimentally, the nature of the Force and of the story being told in Star Wars.




 Lucas himself may not have used the term but conceptually he used them. 

Dooku leaving the order and the Clone Wars cartoon. 

 And millions played things like Knights of the Old Republic and Jedi Academy games so casuals bought into it as well even if they're oblivious to the rest of the EU. 

 Those games still have active communities,mod support and YouTube channels.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 16, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Lucas himself may not have used the term but conceptually he used them.
> 
> Dooku leaving the order and the Clone Wars cartoon.
> 
> ...



Dooku was never grey, and thankfully KOTOR isn't canon. 

There is The Force, and there is the danger of falling to the Dark Side. That's it. Once you've fallen, you might be redeemed, but there isn't a balance between the two. The Force is balanced in the "Light Side", which is in quotations because there is no such thing. The "Light Side" is just the Force, uncorrupted and balanced.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 16, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Dooku was never grey, and thankfully KOTOR isn't canon.
> 
> There is The Force, and there is the danger of falling to the Dark Side. That's it. Once you've fallen, you might be redeemed, but there isn't a balance between the two. The Force is balanced in the "Light Side", which is in quotations because there is no such thing. The "Light Side" is just the Force, uncorrupted and balanced.




 Doesn't matter if it's not canon. Millions played it. 
 Grey Jedi doesn't mean one who uses both sides can also mean one whose left the order 

 Dooku conceptually was a grey Jedi between leaving the order and joining the Sith. 

 Ahsoka is also one using that logic. She might also be one official they may have added the term to the new canon I'm not 100% sure in that one. 

 They also busted out force Lightning, generally seen as a dark side ability.


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## Ryujin (Jun 16, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Dooku was never grey, and thankfully KOTOR isn't canon.
> 
> There is The Force, and there is the danger of falling to the Dark Side. That's it. Once you've fallen, you might be redeemed, but there isn't a balance between the two. The Force is balanced in the "Light Side", which is in quotations because there is no such thing. The "Light Side" is just the Force, uncorrupted and balanced.




And, in the fashion of the films that inspired Lucas, redemption always seems to come at the ultimate price.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 16, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Doesn't matter if it's not canon. Millions played it.
> Grey Jedi doesn't mean one who uses both sides can also mean one whose left the order
> 
> Dooku conceptually was a grey Jedi between leaving the order and joining the Sith.
> ...



You are the only person I've ever seen using grey jedi to mean someone who has left the order. 

A grey jedi is, every time the term has actually been used in official material, someone whose "alignment" is in between light and dark. 

In canon, thankfully, this is not a thing.



Ryujin said:


> And, in the fashion of the films that inspired Lucas, redemption always seems to come at the ultimate price.



Yep, because those who fall to the dark side are _evil_, not just on the wrong side of a spectrum.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 16, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> You are the only person I've ever seen using grey jedi to mean someone who has left the order.
> 
> A grey jedi is, every time the term has actually been used in official material, someone whose "alignment" is in between light and dark.
> 
> ...




 Might wanna read the wiki entry on Grey Jedi. 

 Onscreen both Luke and Rey used dark side type powers (force choke/lightning).

 Term might not get used conceptually both definitions have been seen onscreen in the movies and cartoons.

 It's just a term so you generally know what someone's talking about. Dark Jedi isn't official either but if someone uses it to refer to Ventress who his a dark Sider using a lightsaber you know what they're talking about.


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## Umbran (Jun 16, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Might wanna read the wiki entry on Grey Jedi.
> 
> Onscreen both Luke and Rey used dark side type powers (force choke/lightning).




That doesn't mean that they were "neutral", which is essentially what "Grey Jedi" are supposed to be.

Luke and Rey, on screen, are both still of the Light Side.  They may use a power once or twice, but don't fall outright.  In current canon, there's Dark, and there's Light.  Nobody lingers in between. The Force is a step function, and there is no saddle point to rest in the middle.

I can understand the pushback on Grey Jedi.  They are, in effect, trying to have their cake and eat it too - all the powers, but none of the drawbacks.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 16, 2020)

Umbran said:


> That doesn't mean that they were "neutral", which is essentially what "Grey Jedi" are supposed to be.
> 
> Luke and Rey, on screen, are both still of the Light Side.  They may use a power once or twice, but don't fall outright.  In current canon, there's Dark, and there's Light.  Nobody lingers in between. The Force is a step function, and there is no saddle point to rest in the middle.
> 
> I can understand the pushback on Grey Jedi.  They are, in effect, trying to have their cake and eat it too - all the powers, but none of the drawbacks.




 I like grey Jedi conceptually but it's the equivalent of playing with fire. 

 I'm fine with it in terms of Jedi who have left the order. 

 They did use the concept to tell some good stories including force traditions/beliefs where the idea was to lure people to the dark side. 

 Not sure if the term dark Jedi is kosher anymore but it's clear enough for a Jedi that's fallen to the dark side. 

 If you use the term for someone who uses both the light and dark side you're either transitioning to the dark side or had better wake up and stop doing what you're doing. 

  Ahsoka is an ex Jedi but she hasn't fallen to the dark side. So in that regard grey Jedi are fine IMHO.

  Palps wasn't exactly subtle (give into your anger, strike me down). But yeah more than one way to lure someone to the dark side.


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## Deset Gled (Jun 16, 2020)

Umbran said:


> I can understand the pushback on Grey Jedi.  They are, in effect, trying to have their cake and eat it too - all the powers, but none of the drawbacks.




In older EU works, tapping into the Dark would limit your access to Light, and vice versa.  So being "Gray" meant that you could never proceed to full power of either side.  If more modern stuff gives them full access to both, then, yeah, that's just total cheese.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 16, 2020)

Umbran said:


> That doesn't mean that they were "neutral", which is essentially what "Grey Jedi" are supposed to be.
> 
> Luke and Rey, on screen, are both still of the Light Side.  They may use a power once or twice, but don't fall outright.  In current canon, there's Dark, and there's Light.  Nobody lingers in between. The Force is a step function, and there is no saddle point to rest in the middle.
> 
> I can understand the pushback on Grey Jedi.  They are, in effect, trying to have their cake and eat it too - all the powers, but none of the drawbacks.



Yep. The biggest problem with Grey Jedi is the idea that one can sit in the center and not be pulled into the Dark. That is the opposite of the story being told in the movies. 

Every time in canon material that someone claims to be neither light nor dark, the end up either lying about not being darkside, or they fall to the darkside.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 17, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Yep. The biggest problem with Grey Jedi is the idea that one can sit in the center and not be pulled into the Dark. That is the opposite of the story being told in the movies.
> 
> Every time in canon material that someone claims to be neither light nor dark, the end up either lying about not being darkside, or they fall to the darkside.




 Generally it's the way it went in the old EU as well with a few exceptions. 

 Those exceptions were special circumstances, one off type deals where you paid the ultimate price, or teetering on falling to the dark side. 

Certain force beliefs and traditions were a maybe as well but it wasn't clear in most cases if they were correct. 

 Jedi and Sith generally couldn't teleport but other users had figured it out but they were also aliens.

 Jacen (hands kid) channeled a huge amount of the force both light and dark and just about died. 

 He fell to the dark side later with the intention of being a good Sith. Ended about as well as you expect.

 They had been dropping hints for a while and it was a very slow turn. When he made the final decision it had been obvious for a while.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 18, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Generally it's the way it went in the old EU as well with a few exceptions.
> 
> Those exceptions were special circumstances, one off type deals where you paid the ultimate price, or teetering on falling to the dark side.
> 
> ...



Respectfully, while I’ve read a decent amount of the EU books and played most of the games, I don’t really care about it in terms of Star Wars canon, and only ever did in the context of having a friend who had co tributes some bits to the canon over the years.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 19, 2020)

Umbran said:


> I can understand the pushback on Grey Jedi.  They are, in effect, trying to have their cake and eat it too - all the powers, but none of the drawbacks.



I think that's it. If you can have all of the cool powers but don't need to adhere to any weird (or terrible) moral or ethical rules to do so, being a Jedi or falling to the Dark Side is dumb.
Just do the gray thing and you're fine!
The only way "Gray" Jedi or Force users seem to work is if they still come with some serious drawbacks en par of the Dark Side or the Jedi Order rules.

I think mostly the EU did it that way. There were alternate force traditions that had some other weird rules that limited them, or they just were more dabblers than msters. The ones that tried to be inside the Jedi/Sith traditions and still be gray typically ended up falling to the dark side.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 19, 2020)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I think that's it. If you can have all of the cool powers but don't need to adhere to any weird (or terrible) moral or ethical rules to do so, being a Jedi or falling to the Dark Side is dumb.
> Just do the gray thing and you're fine!
> The only way "Gray" Jedi or Force users seem to work is if they still come with some serious drawbacks en par of the Dark Side or the Jedi Order rules.
> 
> I think mostly the EU did it that way. There were alternate force traditions that had some other weird rules that limited them, or they just were more dabblers than msters. The ones that tried to be inside the Jedi/Sith traditions and still be gray typically ended up falling to the dark side.




 Even in the old EU the gray traditions generally fell to the dark side or had to ditch the dark side elements. 

 They had a couple of main theories about the force and the few actual grey force users were usually special one off type event. They couldn't draw on the dark side regularly. 

 Towards the end of it Luke was Uber powerful but took a hands off approach because of the dark side. 

 The grey Jedi type teachings were generally seen as temptation to start in the path of the dark side. Just more subtle.

Luke let his Jedi have families though.


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## Legatus Legionis (Jun 20, 2020)

.


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## Eltab (Jun 20, 2020)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Make a proper sequel trilogy of the Skywalker Saga.



Which will include instructions to the writers: "The history between _Return of the Jedi_ and the new movie will not consist of 'peeing in the pool' on everything the heroes spent three movies working to accomplish."


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## Zardnaar (Jun 21, 2020)

They're not going to recon VII-IX. 

 Sequels probably should have been made in the 90s. 

 Well I suppose you could make a sequel without the old cast or have the Luke/Han in minor roles. 

 They didn't do a very good job in the world building or passing the torch to a new generation. 

 So much information was put in other media so it was hard to follow what plot they did have.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 21, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> They're not going to recon VII-IX.
> 
> Sequels probably should have been made in the 90s.
> 
> ...



I’ve read no SW books since before the EU got de-canonized, and I’ve never read a SW comic book, and I had no trouble following the plot of the sequels.

Only issue I have with them is that Luke’s story makes it so that there isn’t really room to tell more stories about him. Or at least not as much room as they could have left.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 21, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> I’ve read no SW books since before the EU got de-canonized, and I’ve never read a SW comic book, and I had no trouble following the plot of the sequels.
> 
> Only issue I have with them is that Luke’s story makes it so that there isn’t really room to tell more stories about him. Or at least not as much room as they could have left.




 Personally I would have kinda sidelined Luke after the first movie. Wouldn't have killed him off though and there would have been a reunion with Leia and Han.


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## Bohandas (Jun 23, 2020)

A reboot would be beating a dead horse even more than it already is

EDIT:
At least if it was a total reboot. I'd be down with a reboot of the Disney sequels (as this would allow then to de-canonize _Last Jedi_)


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## Bohandas (Jun 23, 2020)

Zardnaar said:


> Well I suppose you could make a sequel without the old cast




What if Leia was portrayed by Aidan Barton in drag? That _technically_ wouldn't be a recast.


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## DanielStone (Jun 23, 2020)

They should just leave it, only the original trilogy was good.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jun 24, 2020)

I think having Traveller Star Wars would be cool. 
Psionics = Force Users
Travellers = Smugglers and the criminal underworld
Imperium = Empire or Republic or some other star-spanning culture.

Base the trilogy on 3 Shakespeare plays, like Timon of Athens, The Winter's Tale, and perhaps Julius Caesar.

Brand new characters, far away from the Skywalkers.

In a (different) galaxy far far away...


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## Derren (Jun 24, 2020)

They are already doing a Star Wars spinoff with High Republic.
Although what was so far revealed for it was less than enticing. It has a very Knights of the round Table feel, the primary antagonists are the Nihil (space vikings) and one of the first storylines starts with a freighter breaks up while in hyperspace and now the debris endanger the galaxy as they might hit planets with the speed of light and cause massive devastation which makes one wonder why build deathstars in the first place (or don't blow them up with such debris).

What Star Wars needs is not a reboot, its better writers.


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## Deset Gled (Jun 24, 2020)

Derren said:


> They are already doing a Star Wars spinoff with High Republic.
> Although what was so far revealed for it was less than enticing. It has a very Knights of the round Table feel, the primary antagonists are the Nihil (space vikings) and one of the first storylines starts with a freighter breaks up while in hyperspace and now the debris endanger the galaxy as they might hit planets with the speed of light and cause massive devastation which makes one wonder why build deathstars in the first place (or don't blow them up with such debris).
> 
> What Star Wars needs is not a reboot, its better writers.





Seriously?

You could technobabble away the problem in Last Jedi because of the hyperspace tether, but this is just stupid.


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## Umbran (Jun 24, 2020)

Derren said:


> ... one of the first storylines starts with a freighter breaks up while in hyperspace and now the debris endanger the galaxy as they might hit planets with the speed of light and cause massive devastation which makes one wonder why build deathstars in the first place (or don't blow them up with such debris).
> 
> What Star Wars needs is not a reboot, its better writers.





Yeah.  Putting the Holdo Manuver into canon was perhaps the second biggest writing fail in Star Wars history.  The first being Jar Jar.


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## Derren (Jun 24, 2020)

Deset Gled said:


> Seriously?
> 
> You could technobabble away the problem in Last Jedi because of the hyperspace tether, but this is just stupid.




Thats the news I have heard. Its in German, so no idea how useful this is. I will link it but am currently not in the mood to hunt down the source of this. So hopefully google translate does a good job with it

EDIT: Found the English source (IGN, the full first chapter of the book)



Spoiler



“The destruction of the _Legacy Run_ is the catalyst for a galaxy-wide disaster. Fragments of the destroyed cargo vessel begin flying out of hyperspace at super-accelerated speeds, meaning that deadly missiles of debris can appear anywhere at any time, from the Outer Rim to the Core. In this moment of crisis, the Republic turns to the guardians of peace and justice—the Jedi.”











						Read the First Chapter of Star Wars: The High Republic - Light of the Jedi by Charles Soule - IGN
					

Take your first step into the next era of Star Wars by reading this free excerpt from Star Wars: The High Republic - Light of the Jedi by Charles Soule, exclusively on IGN.




					www.ign.com


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## trappedslider (Jun 30, 2020)

Here's more rumor 









						Disney Resetting Star Wars; Erasing Last Jedi | [current-page:pager]Cosmic Book News
					

A new rumor has hit the net offering that some sort of Disney Star Wars reset is in the works that will see Force Awakens, Last Jedi, and Skywalker basically erased.




					cosmicbook.news


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## Eltab (Jun 30, 2020)

Re: the Spoiler tag just upthread
Umm, scriptwriters, Jedi (guardians of peace and justice) should be dealing with people-caused problems, not nature-caused problems.


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## Umbran (Jun 30, 2020)

Eltab said:


> Re: the Spoiler tag just upthread
> Umm, scriptwriters, Jedi (guardians of peace and justice) should be dealing with people-caused problems, not nature-caused problems.






Spoiler



Because your galaxy spontaneously manifests lightspeed-capable cargo vessels?  If not, it is a people-caused problem



In a time of crisis, you use the resources you have that can do the job.


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## Eltab (Jun 30, 2020)

Umbran said:


> In a time of crisis, you use the resources you have that can do the job.



The Republic Navy, which has (or can build or upgrade / kitbash) some Cruiser -sized ships capable of "All power to the tractor beams!" is who I would call first.  That and the Galactic Astronomical and Hyperspatial Survey, to make maps and try to figure out where the debris is / will be - so I know where to put my fleet and when they have to be there.

 "Use the Force to substitute for the map that isn't ready yet" would be a good assignment for Jedi, but not the central role in cleaning up the mess.


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## Umbran (Jun 30, 2020)

Eltab said:


> The Republic Navy, which has (or can build or upgrade / kitbash) some Cruiser -sized ships capable of "All power to the tractor beams!" is who I would call first.




Last time I checked, the Republic Navy cannot predict the future.  Jedi can.  So... given the stated scenario, you'd probably need the cruisers to be in place _before_ things show up.  How does that happen, I wonder?  Dumb luck?

Not that I know the plot of the work, but really, when you have space wizards with lots of different powers, and something weird happens, you probably call in the space wizards.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jun 30, 2020)

Umbran said:


> Not that I know the plot of the work, but really, when you have space wizards with lots of different powers, and something weird happens, you probably call in the space wizards.



Absolutely. Even just the premise that Jedi should stick to people-caused problems is odd. Why? They have magic powers and can help in a wide range of situations.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 30, 2020)

trappedslider said:


> Here's more rumor
> 
> 
> 
> ...





 Dooncocks not that reliable. He was a couple of time with GoT and some Star Wars stuff. 

 BUT

 They were publically available spoilers on Reddit.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jul 3, 2020)

Wild Star Wars Rumor Claims Disney Will Erase the Sequel Trilogy and Reset Canon
					

An unsubstantiated Star Wars rumor claims that Disney is ready to junk everything that happened in The Force Awakens and its Sequels.




					movieweb.com
				




I wonder about the idea of the parallel universes become canon in SW.


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## Legatus Legionis (Jul 3, 2020)

.


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## doctorbadwolf (Jul 3, 2020)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> Sadly, we will have to wait till KK is no longer involved with Lucasfilm.
> 
> Then it will be a GREAT day for Star Wars Fans when the KK-prequels are de-canonized.
> 
> ...



Never gonna happen.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 4, 2020)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Never gonna happen.




 KK contract runs out soon. 

 I don't expect them to retcon the sequel Trilogy. That's Mike Zeroh levels if rumormongers.


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## Legatus Legionis (Jul 4, 2020)

.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jul 4, 2020)

I suggest a way to start a retcon.

The grand moff Wilhuff Tarking give the last ultimatu to princess Leia, if she didn't reveal the localitation of the rebel base, the planet Aldaraan would be destroyed. She confess it, but Wilhuff Tarking order to shoot. The Deathstar throws a powerful ray and.... this falls in the ocean, or an unpopulated region, and the planet survives.... The grand moff orders a second shot, and then canon crashes, sabotage by infiltrators? Maybe. The new orders are to fix the canon, and then... strange lights appears on the planet, like zaps on a screen, and after Alderaan disappear, like an hologram when it turns off after closing transmission. The sensors only detect a empty space, no fragments at all. What has happened?

Years later, when the secon Deathstar is destroyed in the battle of Endor, the planet Aldaraan reappear again in the same solar system, and for the naives has been some minutes in the time. 

At least you could use this idea in your TTRPG.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 5, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> I suggest a way to start a retcon.
> 
> The grand moff Wilhuff Tarking give the last ultimatu to princess Leia, if she didn't reveal the localitation of the rebel base, the planet Aldaraan would be destroyed. She confess it, but Wilhuff Tarking order to shoot. The Deathstar throws a powerful ray and.... this falls in the ocean, or an unpopulated region, and the planet survives.... The grand moff orders a second shot, and then canon crashes, sabotage by infiltrators? Maybe. The new orders are to fix the canon, and then... strange lights appears on the planet, like zaps on a screen, and after Alderaan disappear, like an hologram when it turns off after closing transmission. The sensors only detect a empty space, no fragments at all. What has happened?
> 
> ...




 I give my player 3 choices for the TTRPG

1. Legends
2. Canon
3. Infinities. 

 Infinities is when it's anything goes. You might be the pilot in the X-Wing that blows up the Deathstar. 

 It's always legends for the most part. Mostly because that's the material I own partly because the players are usually more familiar with KoToR than the new canon which requires books.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 6, 2020)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> We know sci-fi get old very bad. Today youngest generations miss current technology we can't see in the vintage sci-fi, for example the mobiles.
> 
> A reboot of a famous IP as Star Wars is very risky. We know is one of the biggest cash-cows in the enternaiment industry. A new mistake and the fandom could be really angry.
> 
> ...




They already rebooted it in 2014.

Before April 2014, the official Star Wars canon included 6 feature films, 4 TV series, 2 TV movies, over 900 comics, over 100+ RPG sourcebooks and reference books, and over 200 novels, on top of 2 MMORPG's and dozens of video games, and almost all of that was canon by official Lucasfilm canon policies (virtually everything at that time was canon unless it was in the specific Tales or Infinities comic series, or was non-canon alternatives such as Dark Side endings to video games).

After April 2014, they said it was only 6 films and one of those TV series that were canon, and the direction they took SW with after that date was radically different than the direction it went before.

We lost Jaina Solo for Rey.  We lost Darth Caedus for Kylo Ren.  Han Solo went from a family man to a washed up loser.  Leia Organa went from a Jedi Knight and former Head of State of the New Republic to a washed up General.

Luke went from being Grand Master of the Jedi Order, who rebuilt the Jedi and founded the Jedi Praxeum. . .to a washed-up hermit that had completely abandoned the very idea of the Jedi.

Star Wars was already rebooted once, shouldn't have been but it was.


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## Ryujin (Jul 6, 2020)

wingsandsword said:


> They already rebooted it in 2014.
> 
> Before April 2014, the official Star Wars canon included 6 feature films, 4 TV series, 2 TV movies, over 900 comics, over 100+ RPG sourcebooks and reference books, and over 200 novels, on top of 2 MMORPG's and dozens of video games, and almost all of that was canon by official Lucasfilm canon policies (virtually everything at that time was canon unless it was in the specific Tales or Infinities comic series, or was non-canon alternatives such as Dark Side endings to video games).
> 
> ...




On the upside, that means that the Star Wars Christmas Special is also no longer canon.


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## Legatus Legionis (Jul 6, 2020)

.


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## Umbran (Jul 6, 2020)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> It was rebooted once already (and very badly), then they can do it again, this time with people who know, understand and have a LOVE for Star Wars.




So, do you feel it is possible for people who know, understand, and have a LOVE of Star Wars to make a movie you'd disagree with?


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## Deset Gled (Jul 6, 2020)

wingsandsword said:


> They already rebooted it in 2014.
> 
> Before April 2014, the official Star Wars canon included 6 feature films, 4 TV series, 2 TV movies, over 900 comics, over 100+ RPG sourcebooks and reference books, and over 200 novels, on top of 2 MMORPG's and dozens of video games, and almost all of that was canon by official Lucasfilm canon policies (virtually everything at that time was canon unless it was in the specific Tales or Infinities comic series, or was non-canon alternatives such as Dark Side endings to video games). ...




I think you overestimate the sincerity of "canon".  By your definition, the prequel trilogy was just as much of a reboot as the Disney one.  Heck, ESB would technically be reboot of "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" (the first book in the EU).  It's always been pretty fluid.



Umbran said:


> So, do you feel it is possible for people who know, understand, and have a LOVE of Star Wars to make a movie you'd disagree with?




If you released RotJ to the people who know, understand, and LOVE Star Wars today, they would complain that Princess Leia is a Mary Sue, Luke is too powerful, Lando was only there for political pandering, and Nien Nunb is racially offensive.  Also, something something something Ewoks.  60% rating on Rotten Tomatoes.  Edit: And it underperformed financially.


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## Eltab (Jul 6, 2020)

Umbran said:


> So, do you feel it is possible for people who know, understand, and have a LOVE of Star Wars to make a movie you'd disagree with?



We've seen what using the IP as an engine to print money, or trying to overlay social sensibilities on it (knowingly or not, admittingly or not) have wrought: unsatisfying movies which do not capture That Spark very well.
A group of fans can do better and are unlikely to do worse.


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## Eyes of Nine (Jul 7, 2020)

Eltab said:


> overlay social sensibilities on it




All art is overlain by the creators' social sensibilities. Whether you care to notice or not is on you.


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## Legatus Legionis (Jul 8, 2020)

.


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