# Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary (now available)



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Okay I think I have finally sorted out how to sell the *Immortals Handbook - EPIC BESTIARY - Volume One* from ENWorld Game Store.

Just look for *Eternity Publishing* (the very bottom publisher with only one product online, you can't miss it).

http://www.enworld.org/shop/index.php?

Or (I just realised - DOH!) you can click on the link just under my name when I post.   

I am off to sort out the same thing at RPGNow.com.

If you have any questions, post here or email me.

By the way, someone reported that my website was hacked earlier, to be honest I haven't seen any signs of it since I woke up this morning, but if somethings not going right with the website I now have someone new to blame for delays. 

This thread is a continuation of the previous Immortals Handbook thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=138184

Lastly, those who purchased the unofficial release, I have not yet sent out your copies. The reason being that linking each attachment takes 5 minutes and I wasn't sure if people would mind having their email addresses revealed if I sent it out in batches of 10-20 at a time. So, to save me about 3-4 hours I will be looking into the complimentary copy idea. Although I am totally new to this so I am not sure how to send such copies yet via ENWorld Game Store (I'll go ask one of the moderators in meta). If I can't get that sorted in the next few hours I will just email them myself anyway, so you'll all get them before tonight one way or another.


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## weiknarf

w00t


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## Clifford

Anyway we could get a rundown of the critters in the book?

Like maybe a table of contects or something?

Cliff


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## Sledge

Let's get this as a press release so it shows up on the PDF news page.

The product page has links to the table of contents and other interesting stuff.


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## Upper_Krust

Hey Clifford! 



			
				Clifford said:
			
		

> Anyway we could get a rundown of the critters in the book?
> 
> Like maybe a table of contects or something?




Sure thing.

See the link on ENWorld Game Store for the product (also when I post theres a link just under my name):

http://www.enworld.org/shop/index.php?do=product&productid=844&source=Publisher Recent

On that page, just under the cover picture its says the words

Preview: | Front Cover | Table of Contents | Excerpt 1 | Excerpt 2

Those are links, click on them and you will see the Table of Contents and two sample pages.

If that doesn't work you should be able to access the Table of Contents on my website:

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/immortalshandbook.htm


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## Upper_Krust

Hey Sledge mate! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> Let's get this as a press release so it shows up on the PDF news page.




I think Russ (Morrus) said he would sort that out.



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> The product page has links to the table of contents and other interesting stuff.




Thanks for the help mate.

I should just apologise for sending people two complimentary copies. I initially forgot the bookmarks, hence the second version that got sent out to those who had purchased the unofficial release.

I'm wondering how the product has a star rating if there are no reviews yet?

Also I don't appear to be able to update my website at the moment. The curse of the were-website has struck again. Not sure if this is just server trouble or more hackery pokery? Who can tell.

Lastly, I am in the throes of setting up the RPGNow account but its a bit more tricky than the ENWorld store, I'm still weighing through the dozens of files they give you.


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## CRGreathouse

Now that we have a new thread, hopefully bringing new people in, here's some navigation for everyone:

By Date
01. The Worship Points System (2002-01-18)
02. Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System) (2002-02-22)
03. The Immortal`s Handbook (2002-06-04)
04. Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook] (2002-07-24)
05. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread (2003-01-23)
06. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation (2003-03-14)
07. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf) (2003-03-30)
08. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels pdf (Version 3) (2003-04-07)
09. Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread (2003-05-04)
10. immortals handbook (2003-06-30)
11. Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3 (2003-08-30)
12. v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible) (2003-10-15)
13. The Immortals Handbook (2004-01-26)
14. Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!) (2004-02-17)
15. The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread (2005-01-25)
16. Another Immortals Handbook thread (2005-06-30)
17. Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary (now available) (2005-12-19)

By Forum Rank (# of posts) (Yes, we control the top 9!)
1. The Immortals Handbook (1440 replies)
2. Another Immortals Handbook thread (1137 replies)
3. Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook] (794 replies)
4. v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible) (740 replies)
5. immortals handbook (673 replies)
6. The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread (566 replies)
7. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf) (521 replies)
8. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread (475 replies)
9. Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread (430 replies)
18. The Worship Points System (232 replies)
22. Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System) (200 replies)
34. Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3 (135 replies)
46. Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation (109 replies)
86. The Immortal`s Handbook (73 replies)
89. Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!) (71 replies)
433. Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels pdf (Version 3) (28 replies)
~3600. Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary (now available) (~7 replies)

By Thread Starter
Anubis
Upper Krust, where are you? [Immortal's Handbook]
Immortal's Handbook CR/EL Rules: Don't Count Ability Scores (Proof Positive Inside!)

Darkness
Revised CRs/ECLs - Thread #3

Dinkeldog
Immortal's Handbook continuation thread
Revised CRs/ECLs continuation thread

Eldorian
Immortal's Handbook continuation thread continuation

kkoie
immortals handbook

Melkor, Lord Of ALL!
The Immortal`s Handbook

Upper_Krust
The Worship Points System
Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)
Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels (pdf)
Revised Challenge Ratings/Encounter Levels pdf (Version 3)
v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)
The Immortals Handbook
The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread
Another Immortals Handbook thread
Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary (now available)

Related Threads
Anubis' "Rules: Effective Character Levels and Challenge Ratings" (2002-02-03)
Anubis' Saiyans and Tyranids (2002-09-01)
Anubis' Expanded ECL rules! (2002-09-05)
Anubis' "Rules: Saiyans" by Anubis (2002-09-16)
Anubis' "The Big Big Book of Feats" by Anubis (2002-09-16)
Jarval's How much effect on ECL should Fast Healing have? (2002-10-02)
Cheiromancer's Epic Spellcasting (2003-11-27)
Cheiromancer's Level Independent XP Awards (2004-04-28)

**************

Conversions
Converting from various systems into the 3E D&D system of the Immortals Handbook
SDAs into Divine Abilities and Cosmic Abilities
Gods & Monsters from 1E
Gods from OD&D Immortals and Primal Order

Previews and Free Stuff
Monsters and other material, either previewed from the Bestiary or just miscellaneous material showing Upper_Krust's style.
Crown Naga (CR 25)
Epic Tarrasque (CR 44)
Anakim (Silent One) (CR 45)
Amilictli (All-Relentless Thunder) (CR 85)
Talos (CR 128)
King Ghidorah (CR 133)
Gibborim (Mighty One)
5 epic feats
Epic weapons (CR 34-66)
Clay golem/guardian/sentinel/gargant/colossus/leviathan (CR 7-65)
Art preview #1
Art preview #2
Art preview #3
Art preview #4

Revised CR/EL System
Draft #1 (2003-03-30)
Draft #3 (2003-04-07)
Draft #4 (2003-10-15)


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## CRGreathouse

So, when will we have the IH up on RPGNow?


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## Verequus

I can explain the star rating. In my bookshelf I've used the option of simply rating the product, although I haven't posted a review. I'm simply convinced of the quality of this book!


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## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I initially forgot the bookmarks, hence the second version that got sent out to those who had purchased the unofficial release.




Hm, maybe it's just me, but the copy I downloaded from the EN Gamestore didn't have bookmarks. Is that right, U_K?

Also, the alignment for the Maskim is still listed as being "always good (any)", when it should be "always lawful evil".


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## Upper_Krust

Hi CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> So, when will we have the IH up on RPGNow?




Okay, do you mean when will we see the IH - Epic Bestiary - Volume One on RPGNow?

If so, I just had a weird email from them, which I don't fully understand. I emailed them back and I am now waiting for a reply. If all goes well (?) I think they take up to 24 hours looking over your product before its allowed on sale.

If you are asking when will the Immortals Handbook itself be ready. Work on that will restart in earnest tomorrow. Basically the portfolios chapter needs the most work, the others are 50-75% completed. I'd only be shooting myself in the foot talking about a release date, but I can no longer afford to 'muck about'. I need to get into a groove of finishing 2+ pages per day, and stop going back and reworking stuff over and over. The Immortals Handbook will also only have about half the art of the Bestiary, so that will help.

In my spare time I may try and get the 1.5 Bestiary sorted.

By the way CR, I need to send you a complimentary copy.


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## Fieari

Here's Maladric: http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/Maladric,_Human_Akalich_Sorcerer_68

And just because the template seemed so appropriate for the creature, synergy-wise, I also have an Atata Banshee: http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/Atata_Banshee_CR_31


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## Upper_Krust

Hey Rulemaster and Alzrius! 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I can explain the star rating. In my bookshelf I've used the option of simply rating the product, although I haven't posted a review. I'm simply convinced of the quality of this book!




I appreciate the love dude! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hm, maybe it's just me, but the copy I downloaded from the EN Gamestore didn't have bookmarks. Is that right, U_K?




Well I only sent one complimentary copy out to the people who purchased the unofficial release. But then I realised my mistake and added the bookmarks, then updated the product at ENWorld store, apparently that automatically sends out the updated copy. So the second copy you get should have the bookmarks I suppose.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, the alignment for the Maskim is still listed as being "always good (any)", when it should be "always lawful evil"




DOH! I'll set up a page for errata/addendums on my website (when it lets me update that is). 

I have so far spotted one mistake: the Sadims sub-name is Greedy One in the Contents, but Gold-digger in the entry. It should be Greedy One.


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## Verequus

I've downloaded it from ENWorld, but this copy had no bookmarks...


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## Alzrius

As a note, Alabaster is by far my favorite creature in the entire Bestiary (this volume, anyway). That said, although he presents a truly fearsome foe, he's still bound by the classic vampire weaknesses, such as being held at bay by garlic and holy symbols, death by sunlight, etc.

In order to make up for that, I recommend DM's using Alabaster add the Vampire Lord template to him and his thralls. Disregard the prerequisites; they're story-based, and don't fit with his history. They don't grant him too much more power (compared to what he already has), but they eliminate a lot of his vampiric weaknesses.


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## Sledge

Now that this is for sale it will be interesting to see how many people make use of it without any epic games.  The sheer range of stuff in this pdf is great for DM's who want to build towards an epic game, even if they never get there.


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## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

Brief news, I received a reply from RPGNow, the earlier problem was just a misunderstanding. But things may still take 24 hours before its available there.

Regarding my website, I still can't update, but I know what the problem is and have emailed the webspace provider. So hopefully I can get that sorted today.

Thanks for those links Fieari. Very nice work. I'll set up a page for you (or anyone else who creates things using the IH) on immortalshandbook.com (when I get the chance).



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I've downloaded it from ENWorld, but this copy had no bookmarks...




Thats weird. Has anyone who downloaded it from ENWorld got the bookmarked version as yet?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> As a note, Alabaster is by far my favorite creature in the entire Bestiary (this volume, anyway). That said, although he presents a truly fearsome foe, he's still bound by the classic vampire weaknesses, such as being held at bay by garlic and holy symbols, death by sunlight, etc.




Alabaster was my favourite idea of the book (although the Grigori Bounty Hunter 'Ioun Eyes' is fairly cool), but in my opinion its the worst executed entry. It was the last to be finished, I may have rushed one or two things and the to be honest two pages is simply not enough room to do the combined Alabaster/Amidah creature justice. Especially when he has six major artifact swords, I could have filled double the space on the weapons alone.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In order to make up for that, I recommend DM's using Alabaster add the Vampire Lord template to him and his thralls. Disregard the prerequisites; they're story-based, and don't fit with his history. They don't grant him too much more power (compared to what he already has), but they eliminate a lot of his vampiric weaknesses.




I was initially thinking that Alabaster was so old that he would have control of any bloodlust (hence his neutral alignment), and could exist in daylight, and such. But I just didn't have the space to play with.   



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> Now that this is for sale it will be interesting to see how many people make use of it without any epic games. The sheer range of stuff in this pdf is great for DM's who want to build towards an epic game, even if they never get there.




Well at heart its an Epic Bestiary, so I suspect people will see that and either be interested or not, based solely on that. But I did add a lot of extra features in there that could be used at non-epic levels:

1. The new Size rules (for creatures of any size)
2. The new Density rules (and Virtual Size Categories)
3. The Universal Damage Table (with modifiers for disproportionate appendages)
4. The Glimpse at the Kosmos discussion, detailing the various dimensions.
5. The expanded Abomination creation rules (mostly epic I guess)
6. The discussion on Angels (including the Angelic Hierarchy, Armies, Secret Strike Teams etc.)
7. The discussion on Brood (hierarchies, rulers, armies etc.)
8. The discussion on Daemons (hierarchies, rulers, armies etc.)
9. The discussion on Demons (hierarchies, rulers, armies etc.)
10. The discussion on Devils (hierarchies, rulers, armies etc.)
11. The Dire Creature Template, and how to stack them. The Legendary Creature Template.
12. Rules on how to create your own dragons (both epic and non-epic).
13. Rules on how to create your own Golems.
14. New rules for different classes of Golem (from Guardian to Leviathan)

15. Also, because many of the monsters are multi-faceted, the book actually contains quite a few non-epic monsters (17 monsters of CR20 or under, with another 5 between CR 21-28, then another 44 of CR 30+). Then, on top of that you have the seven Dragons with Wyrmling CRs of 20, 26, 29, 29, 116, 128, 416. 

So technically (counting each dragon as one entry), the book actually has 78 monsters, double the amount listed!

16. There are many non-epic Adventure ideas.
17. There are a few non-epic magic items, weapon special abilities and so forth (although most are epic).
18. There are quite a few new artifacts. Some of these could see use in non-epic campaigns.
19. There is a new material (Orichalcum), although I suppose thats almost certainly what you could call an epic-material.
20. You could say the art is non-epic...okay I was struggling with #20. 

I'll be following a similar pattern with future products like the Immortals Handbook itself. Its Immortal rules at heart, but there are lots of elements like how to design your own religions, cults, churches, how many clerics, what levels are they type of stuff. Then you have the Disciple ('Chosen of') and Prophet ('Champion of') Templates which are non-epic. There are new domains, new spells too.


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## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Okay I am just wondering, should I actually have the d20 logo on my cover?

I wouldn't update the pdf just for that, but I can update the pictures of the cover on ENWorld and my Shop Front.

Just in case there is any confusion over whether or not this is a d20 product or not.

What do you guys think?

Oh, and CRGreathouse did you get my email last night? If not you must have changed your email address. If so email me with your new one.


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## Anabstercorian

d20 logo?  Yes, absolutely.


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## The Serge

Upper Krust, it's about time.  All I can say is:

*SUPERB*!!!!!

One of my moderators (Kain Darkwind) was kind enough to buy a copy of it for me and I'll be doing a review of the _Immortals' Handbook_ for Dicefreaks.  I want to encourage our members to buy it as I think it's a great bit of work.  Some of the pictures (all done by yourself, yes?) are evocative!

Well done!


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## jmucchiello

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay I am just wondering, should I actually have the d20 logo on my cover?



Some free advice. Do not put the d20 logo on your cover unless you follow all of the guidelines required by the d20 license. Your cover does not have any of the Manditory Trademark Use text on it and that would violate the license. Likewise, based on the table of contents you are already in violation since you claim to be using version 3.0 of the d20 license. The d20 license is up to version 6 and you aren't allowed to release new material with an older copy of that license. On the same page you state that Dungeon Master is a trademark of WotC. While true, this violates the d20 license.

And I don't like your OGC declaration because the last line is (in my and other's opinions) not a clear declaration. But that is an esoteric OGL arguement that I don't want to debate in this forum. It does mean though that I am less interested in purchasing IH than I was before though.

Did any PDF publishers ask about publishing the IH for you? I never did because there were other publishers who were more active in your IH threads. But you've made a bunch of rookie mistakes with the license that could have easily been avoided.


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## Angel Tarragon

Shew, about time! I'll get payment out for it as soon as I possibly can. Thanks UK! Looking forward to the complete printed project!


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## historian

U_K's work is really amazing.  Every time that I open the file I catch something new.  In no particular order, here are some of my favorite tidbits in the Bestiary:

1.  The Extradimensional, Cosmic String, Anoretic, and Apostasy powers.

2.  The illustrations of the Quintessence Elemental, Orichalcum Golem, and Sandolphon.

3.  The Kosmos. 

4.  The Dragons.

5.  The Size Templates.

6.  The Grigori.  

7.  The Angels.

8.  The Neutronium Golem.  

9.  Alabaster's equipment.

10.  The Robes of the Almighty.

I'm also REALLY looking forward to the following:

1.  The Eternal and Supernal templates.

2.  The Transcendent and Omnific abilities.

3.  The Lipika, Mazzaroth, Infinitaur, and Gog/Magog.

4.  The Inevitables and Intelligibles.

5.  Detailing of specific pantheons.


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## Kerrick

Just looked over the preview pages... I'm glad you didn't use the new statblock format. It means I'll probably pick this one up. Also, the font is very hard to read... the headers are night unto impossible to decipher. Just a minor gripe, but something you might want to keep in mind for next time.


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## Alzrius

historian said:
			
		

> Apostasy powers.




This power didn't get a listing that I saw. It was only mentioned in the Seraphim's Ray of Redemption power.


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## Ulitharid_Lord

Congratulations U_K, on (finally) finishing the Bestiary!

It's good to know that you have already got alot done on the other sections.

But your site is really messed up. It is gibberish again, but near the bottom, it becomes readable, but still does not make sense. It looks like a spam email or something. And there are images that do not show up and should not be there. And then, at the very bottom of the page is random words. It is very strange.

Pages that are currently messed up (Pages marked with an asterik have the weird text that is not gibberish):
Main Page*
Crown Naga
King Ghidorah*
Testimony*
Immortal's Handbook Page* (Not completly messed up, the title, links and some text at the bottom are still okay)

I can't get to the art galleries, because the main page and the IH Page are not working, so I do not know if they are okay.


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## historian

> This power didn't get a listing that I saw. It was only mentioned in the Seraphim's Ray of Redemption power.




There isn't a technical description but I think I know where it is headed directionally.  It would substitute as an alignment descriptor for those beings existing outside the Dimensions bearing an alignment.


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## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> d20 logo?  Yes, absolutely.




Hmm, I think I'll have to go over the document again as per jmucchiello's advice before I do.



			
				Serge said:
			
		

> Upper Krust, it's about time. All I can say is:
> 
> SUPERB!!!!!
> 
> One of my moderators (Kain Darkwind) was kind enough to buy a copy of it for me and I'll be doing a review of the Immortals' Handbook for Dicefreaks. I want to encourage our members to buy it as I think it's a great bit of work. Some of the pictures (all done by yourself, yes?) are evocative!
> 
> Well done!




Thanks again Serge matey! Yes I did all the art myself, for better or worse. I would have prefered to hire Wayne Reynolds but beggars can't be choosers I suppose. I don't think I have mastered the art (no pun intended) of making things look epic yet, but I am quite proud of the achievement, and especially the cover. I don't think I am back to my best yet (I hadn't painted since 1995 before tackling the cover), but I am only going to get better with practice.

I'll try and spend a bit more time on dicefreaks in the future, Kain lured me in last week talking about nukes in d20. But I think I had to abscond before things were settled.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Some free advice. Do not put the d20 logo on your cover unless you follow all of the guidelines required by the d20 license. Your cover does not have any of the Manditory Trademark Use text on it and that would violate the license.




Well I thought I was following all the guidelines, but you have given me pause on the matter.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Likewise, based on the table of contents you are already in violation since you claim to be using version 3.0 of the d20 license. The d20 license is up to version 6 and you aren't allowed to release new material with an older copy of that license. On the same page you state that Dungeon Master is a trademark of WotC. While true, this violates the d20 license.




I'll have to go tidy that up.   



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> And I don't like your OGC declaration because the last line is (in my and other's opinions) not a clear declaration. But that is an esoteric OGL arguement that I don't want to debate in this forum. It does mean though that I am less interested in purchasing IH than I was before though.




Well I presume you don't mean the 'work of fiction' line, and are refering to the line about making copies? If so I'll remove that line and do another incarnation (Version 1.2) tonight. I'm going to have to update the license anyway, can't have that hanging.   



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Did any PDF publishers ask about publishing the IH for you?




I was in negotiations with a few, but things fell through for whatever reason, so I just decided to self-publish the Bestiary first (or at least part of it) and then, with something to show for myself, see if any publishers were interested in the actual Immortals Handbook itself or other similar products.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> I never did because there were other publishers who were more active in your IH threads.




I'd certainly prefer to work with an established publisher rather than have to do everything myself, as you have noted I'm not one hundred percent up to scratch on the legal side of things, and the online aspect has been a learning process in truth. 



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> But you've made a bunch of rookie mistakes with the license that could have easily been avoided.




Well I am a rookie, but I take your point. Thanks for your advice, very much appreciated.



			
				Frukathka said:
			
		

> Shew, about time! I'll get payment out for it as soon as I possibly can. Thanks UK! Looking forward to the complete printed project!




I appreciate the support mate. As for a print version, I suppose that will depend on whether the pdfs are successful enough to merit publisher interest.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> U_K's work is really amazing. Every time that I open the file I catch something new.




As long as its not new mistakes. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In no particular order, here are some of my favorite tidbits in the Bestiary:
> 
> *SNIP*




...yeah, but everybody loves the Neutronium Golem so that one doesn't count. 

...oh and don't think I didn't get that Grigori wink you cheeky rascal. 



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> Just looked over the preview pages... I'm glad you didn't use the new statblock format.




Why not? I think it looks kind of fresh and clean.



			
				Kerrick said:
			
		

> It means I'll probably pick this one up. Also, the font is very hard to read... the headers are night unto impossible to decipher. Just a minor gripe, but something you might want to keep in mind for next time.




Aw, c'mon, that font is king! It combines upper and lower case letters in the same way that the Immortals Handbook encapsulates the mortal-Immortal relationship.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This power didn't get a listing that I saw. It was only mentioned in the Seraphim's Ray of Redemption power.




Apostasy is the power to transcend alignment. With it, a chaotic evil deity could take Paladin Levels, or you could be a Monk-Bard and so forth. It also means a Paladin could cast evil spells. It means that you are immune to the effects of aligned-based weapons and spells.

By the way, just incase things were not totally clear, the d20 Hit Dice signifies Demigod+, d100 Hit Dice signifies Elder One/Cosmic power, d1000 Hit Dice signifies Transcendental Level Beings/Time Lords and so forth. These abilities are in the Immortals Handbook, there are prerequisites for getting the d20 Hit Dice, depending on starting Hit Dice type. I have a new type of epic toughness that increases dice type from d4 to d6 to d8 to d10 to d12. So its not technically automatic for immortals, although it would be for those without Class Levels and only Hit Dice.

...I actually got the idea indirectly from the Paragon Template in the ELH. It gives +12 hit point bonus per Hit Dice and I was just thinking that with maximum hit points for a d8 creature, thats the same as a maxed d20.

Lastly, as jmucchiello has intimated, it looks like I should update the d20 license, so while I am doing that I may as well fix the errata, so if you find anymore by tonight let me know.

Currently the spotted errata is:

1. Maskim's alignment should be Lawful Evil
2. Sadims subname should be Greedy One as it is in the contents.
3. The Flagas entry in the Monsters by CR & ECL list is wonky.


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## Verequus

Regarding the hit dice I've got a question: The Half-Dragon Template mentions the following line: "Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12." With your rules, would this maximum be abolished, so the hierarchy gets expanded to d12->d20->d100->d1000->d10000 etc.?


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## historian

Hey U_K!  



> As long as its not new mistakes.




Of course not and, ironically, as long as the mistakes are obvious enough they have no substantive import.  



> yeah, but everybody loves the Neutronium Golem so that one doesn't count.




Many folks will clamor that these "overpowered" critters have no practical value because they are overpowered.  I tend to disagree.  For one thing you have littered the work with general ideas about how to include these things in lower-powered campaigns.  

Net, net, I'm not sure you can go too powerful unless you can't explain why the hell the thing exists in the first place.  Seeing that you have that covered I say fire away.

Of course, I'm also sympathetic to the fact that the neutronium golem's entry came at the sacrifice of some likely less powerful and arguably more useful entry.  But it seems as though everyone has taken to it rather well.



> oh and don't think I didn't get that Grigori wink you cheeky rascal.




I'd been meaning to needle you about that one for some time.  Well done I must say.  I might slap on the Paragon and Dire templates to approximate our buddy from another genre.



> Maskim's alignment should be Lawful Evil




I will admit to being puzzled by the alignment previously.  I just failed to mention it.

Oh, and another irony, the quality of the work is such that you have created additional demand for forthcoming products.  While this is good for you in both the artistic and hopefully financial sense, it is likely to result in additional pressure to complete all projects by your loyal albeit enthusiastic (rabid) fan base.

I hope you're ready for the push dude.


----------



## Eversius

I think the listing for damage reduction for a Wyrmling Nexus Dragon is a little wacky.


----------



## jmucchiello

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I presume you don't mean the 'work of fiction' line, and are refering to the line about making copies? If so I'll remove that line and do another incarnation (Version 1.2) tonight. I'm going to have to update the license anyway, can't have that hanging.



No, no. It's the "by virtue of being in the SRD or some other OGC source" in you OGC declaration. I don't think it passes the "clear designation" required by the OGL since I have to read all other OGC sources to know if something is OGC or not. But there are several other Publishers who use that phrasing and they haven't been sued by WotC yet. As I said it was esoteric.


> I'd certainly prefer to work with an established publisher rather than have to do everything myself, as you have noted I'm not one hundred percent up to scratch on the legal side of things, and the online aspect has been a learning process in truth.



Damn, wish I'd offered. Especially since you've already acquired artwork and layout. Wouldn't have been much for me to do except a quick edit and make corrections to the legal stuff.  Though I haven't done print yet, I do have a project (in production nearly as long as the IH) with another writer that I will have printed.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Lastly, as jmucchiello has intimated, it looks like I should update the d20 license, so while I am doing that I may as well fix the errata, so if you find anymore by tonight let me know.




A few things on that note. One, it'd be nice if the templates had level adjustments listed for the template entry itself. That is, tell us how much of a level adjustment the entire Amidah template is, not just Alabaster's ECL, for example.

I'll also reiterate my desire that you use the blank (save for the dedication) second page as a way to input more text. It's largely wasted space now when you could be telling us more about Alabaster and his swords.

Alabaster is able to have his natural weapons (and have his melee weapons) strike as epic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction...how?

Nimrod has the Evil subtype. I can't see what's granting that to him.

The Flaga template itself should mention in the "Size and Type" line that it adds the Extraplanar subtype also, and that the creature is now a native of (one of) the Upper Planes (though I wonder if "Upper Planes" is WotC IP also). It should also say that it grants the Augmented subtype.

Alabaster is listed as being a "Medium Undead (Undead)". Needless to say, the Undead subtype is superfluous. Ditto for Nimrod.

The adult titanium dragon above Table D-27 still has a Special Quality called Adamantite Traits.

Syzygy's alignment can be listed as "Chaotic Neutral" instead of "always chaotic neutral" since there's only one of him. Ditto for Belias ("Chaotic Evil"),


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> Regarding the hit dice I've got a question: The Half-Dragon Template mentions the following line: "Increase base creature’s racial HD by one die size, to a maximum of d12." With your rules, would this maximum be abolished, so the hierarchy gets expanded to d12->d20->d100->d1000->d10000 etc.?




The maximum for a half-dragon would still be d12 though.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Of course not and, ironically, as long as the mistakes are obvious enough they have no substantive import.




Nevertheless I hate mistakes. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Many folks will clamor that these "overpowered" critters have no practical value because they are overpowered.  I tend to disagree.  For one thing you have littered the work with general ideas about how to include these things in lower-powered campaigns.
> 
> Net, net, I'm not sure you can go too powerful unless you can't explain why the hell the thing exists in the first place.  Seeing that you have that covered I say fire away.
> 
> Of course, I'm also sympathetic to the fact that the neutronium golem's entry came at the sacrifice of some likely less powerful and arguably more useful entry.  But it seems as though everyone has taken to it rather well.




The Neutronium Golem is an exercise in stretching the imaginations of what people thought was possible with d20.

If you only give people monsters up to CR 66, then many people will see that as a parameter/threshold of power. I remember reading threads over in wizards epic forums where people believed that the only being more powerful than the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon was GOD.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'd been meaning to needle you about that one for some time.  Well done I must say.  I might slap on the Paragon and Dire templates to approximate our buddy from another genre.




Or you could just give him lots of levels (about 100 maybe).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I will admit to being puzzled by the alignment previously.  I just failed to mention it.




How I missed that I'll never know.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Oh, and another irony, the quality of the work is such that you have created additional demand for forthcoming products.  While this is good for you in both the artistic and hopefully financial sense, it is likely to result in additional pressure to complete all projects by your loyal albeit enthusiastic (rabid) fan base.
> 
> I hope you're ready for the push dude.




Well I'll be looking to turnover new products in a matter of weeks not months.



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> I think the listing for damage reduction for a Wyrmling Nexus Dragon is a little wacky.




You're not wrong, flippin heck that needs attention.   



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> No, no. It's the "by virtue of being in the SRD or some other OGC source" in you OGC declaration. I don't think it passes the "clear designation" required by the OGL since I have to read all other OGC sources to know if something is OGC or not. But there are several other Publishers who use that phrasing and they haven't been sued by WotC yet. As I said it was esoteric.




Why would that impede you from wanting to purchase it though?



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Damn, wish I'd offered.




Well, like I said, I was just wanting to have one product out there, to have something to show for myself and then, talk to publishers about future products.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Especially since you've already acquired artwork and layout.




Well I didn't 'acquire' it as much as I...did it all myself. 



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Wouldn't have been much for me to do except a quick edit and make corrections to the legal stuff.




Regarding legal stuff, would you mind if I emailed/private messaged you to double-check I have 6.0 sorted properly this time.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Though I haven't done print yet, I do have a project (in production nearly as long as the IH) with another writer that I will have printed.




Good luck with that.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> A few things on that note. One, it'd be nice if the templates had level adjustments listed for the template entry itself. That is, tell us how much of a level adjustment the entire Amidah template is, not just Alabaster's ECL, for example.




Okay, I'll sort that out.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'll also reiterate my desire that you use the blank (save for the dedication) second page as a way to input more text. It's largely wasted space now when you could be telling us more about Alabaster and his swords.




Thats meant to represent the inside cover, so that when people print it out, the majority of the double-page monster entries are on facing pages.

I'm not sure what I could put on the inside cover. I can't really expand Alabasters entry onto it without making a dog's dinner of the layout.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Alabaster is able to have his natural weapons (and have his melee weapons) strike as epic for purposes of overcoming damage reduction...how?




 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Nimrod has the Evil subtype. I can't see what's granting that to him.




Oops.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The Flaga template itself should mention in the "Size and Type" line that it adds the Extraplanar subtype also, and that the creature is now a native of (one of) the Upper Planes (though I wonder if "Upper Planes" is WotC IP also). It should also say that it grants the Augmented subtype.




Indeed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Alabaster is listed as being a "Medium Undead (Undead)". Needless to say, the Undead subtype is superfluous. Ditto for Nimrod.




Okay.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The adult titanium dragon above Table D-27 still has a Special Quality called Adamantite Traits.




Sorted.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Syzygy's alignment can be listed as "Chaotic Neutral" instead of "always chaotic neutral" since there's only one of him. Ditto for Belias ("Chaotic Evil"),




Thanks a million dude!


----------



## Pssthpok

Hey, UK. Superb work. The build-your-own golem section is my favorite.


----------



## Anabstercorian

I'm going to try to use your dragon-building guidelines to create the Transuranic Dragons.  Highly radioactive, surprisingly sedate, very, very dense, and disconcertingly loud shouters.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats meant to represent the inside cover, so that when people print it out, the majority of the double-page monster entries are on facing pages.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what I could put on the inside cover.




I can understand where you're coming from, but that strikes me as somewhat unnecessary. People who print out the _Bestiary_ will use the double-sided layout for the pages, yes, but no one will include the cover with that print job. That's because colored pages are usually done separately due to ink reasons, and likewise, many PDF-to-print jobs do the cover separately anyway on a thicker surface.

Simply put, people will know to manually print the cover separately, as a single-sided page, and _that_, not the (almost) blank page you have there, is the inside cover.



> _I can't really expand Alabasters entry onto it without making a dog's dinner of the layout._




Anything extra would be much appreciated. Keep in mind that while you have all the info in your head and on any notes you've made, we've got only what's in the _Bestiary_. If you don't expand the info on Alabaster, then that's all that we will ever get to see.

One other thing I wanted to ask about. What is the reason behind Sandalphon's Androgyne Ray? It has no mechanical effect, and I'm not grokking the thematic reason for it (beyond, maybe, it has something to do with fallen cherubim becoming female).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

By the way I was able to update the website earlier, I added a shop page and a page for third-party creations (where I added Fieari's monster links). I also fixed all the Bestiary preview pictures.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Hey, UK. Superb work. The build-your-own golem section is my favorite.




Thanks Pssthpok mate! 

I think it sorts out all the basics and its very quick and simple to follow.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I'm going to try to use your dragon-building guidelines to create the Transuranic Dragons. Highly radioactive, surprisingly sedate, very, very dense, and disconcertingly loud shouters.




Sounds cool - it could have Atomic Breath based upon the Kiloton spell. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I can understand where you're coming from, but that strikes me as somewhat unnecessary. People who print out the Bestiary will use the double-sided layout for the pages, yes, but no one will include the cover with that print job. That's because colored pages are usually done separately due to ink reasons, and likewise, many PDF-to-print jobs do the cover separately anyway on a thicker surface.
> 
> Simply put, people will know to manually print the cover separately, as a single-sided page, and that, not the (almost) blank page you have there, is the inside cover.




I'm sure many will do it like that but not necessarily all.

The book is 96 pages +1 page cover +1 page inside cover. If I was going to post anything on the inside cover, it would have to be something totally generic as far as I can see.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Anything extra would be much appreciated. Keep in mind that while you have all the info in your head and on any notes you've made, we've got only what's in the Bestiary. If you don't expand the info on Alabaster, then that's all that we will ever get to see.




Don't worry about that I have other plans for Alabaster, thats why I singled him out as Product Identity. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> One other thing I wanted to ask about. What is the reason behind Sandalphon's Androgyne Ray? It has no mechanical effect, and I'm not grokking the thematic reason for it (beyond, maybe, it has something to do with fallen cherubim becoming female).




Someone else asked me this recently, the reason for it was that in my studies of Sandalphon himself, one of the powers attributed to him was the ability to change someones sex. So I was just trying to adhere to the occult information as closely as possible. So if he fought Demogorgon, he could zap him and change him to Demogorgana. 

This tied in perfectly with a Divine Power I had called Androgyne Ray. I then toyed with the idea of similar powers for the Cherubim (Beam of Balance*) and Seraphim (Ray of Redemption). The Seraphim were also meant to have one unique power tying them to the seven virtues (but time and space restraints kept it out).

*Which got cut, though may end up on Metatron.


----------



## Alzrius

Fieari said:
			
		

> And just because the template seemed so appropriate for the creature, synergy-wise, I also have an Atata Banshee: http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/Atata_Banshee_CR_31




You may want to note that one of the changes you made was that normally, the Atata template can only be added to a creature with a Constitution score.

EDIT: Also, U_K, I notice that you seem to have split references between "Far Realm" and "Far Place". I've found roughly an equal number of each by doing a word search. Seems a tad confusing. Since I think you have a somewhat-credible case for using the "Far Realm" (in my opinion, which in all honesty isn't worth much), you may just want to go with that. Either way though, two names for one place does seem a bit too much.

Also, U_K, a number of creatures (such as cometary dragons, cogents, etc.) seem to be space-dwellers. However, their creature type (Outsider, Aberration, etc.) states that they need to breathe. How do they survive there then?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Don't worry about that I have other plans for Alabaster, thats why I singled him out as Product Identity.




Woot! I can't wait! Does anyone just imagine him walking into a room and hearing Rhapsody's "When Demons Awake" start playing? I know I do.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Whilst producing the transuranic dragon, the Gold Within Gold Dragon, I was forced to come up with a new mechanic for its scales...

_Omnipresent_ gaze attacks function as normal gaze attacks, save that creatures within range must attempt a saving throw during their turn AND on the gazing creatures turn, and the gazer may not actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action.  Such effects are appropriate for gaze attacks who either do not require eye contact to activate, only being seen, or beings with so many eyes that there is no real difference between seeing the gazer and making eye contact with it.

What do you think?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

Okay, just a quick post to let you know I have finished all the changes needed, and its okay jmucchiello I know I have the license sorted now, so I won't need to email you, but thanks again for the advice.

The only thing I am not sure of at this point is whether or not Upper Planes is Product Identity or not? If it is, I can change it to Upper Realms later and then reload everything.

I am about to go out and do some very spartan christmas shopping, so if anyone knows about the Upper Planes question above let me know, otherwise I'll find out myself later. 

I'll also edit this post with replies to any previous posts this evening.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> You may want to note that one of the changes you made was that normally, the Atata template can only be added to a creature with a Constitution score.




Will do.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> EDIT: Also, U_K, I notice that you seem to have split references between "Far Realm" and "Far Place". I've found roughly an equal number of each by doing a word search. Seems a tad confusing. Since I think you have a somewhat-credible case for using the "Far Realm" (in my opinion, which in all honesty isn't worth much), you may just want to go with that. Either way though, two names for one place does seem a bit too much.




I have them all changed to Far Place.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, U_K, a number of creatures (such as cometary dragons, cogents, etc.) seem to be space-dwellers. However, their creature type (Outsider, Aberration, etc.) states that they need to breathe. How do they survive there then?




Sorted. Thanks for the feedback mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Whilst producing the transuranic dragon, the Gold Within Gold Dragon, I was forced to come up with a new mechanic for its scales...




Gold within Gold Dragon is a great sub-name.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Omnipresent gaze attacks function as normal gaze attacks, save that creatures within range must attempt a saving throw during their turn AND on the gazing creatures turn, and the gazer may not actively attempt to use its gaze as an attack action. Such effects are appropriate for gaze attacks who either do not require eye contact to activate, only being seen, or beings with so many eyes that there is no real difference between seeing the gazer and making eye contact with it.
> 
> What do you think?




It reads a tad complicated for my tastes.


----------



## Cheiromancer

Well "planes" can't be anyone's IP, and neither can the notion that heaven is up and hell is down.  I wouldn't invent a private vocabulary to replace terms like "upper planes" and "lower planes".

As for the Far Realm/Place- how about giving it a one-word name like "Outside" or "Beyond"?  I kinda like the latter; pseudonatural critters can be called "beyonders".  If you use the former, you could refer to them as "true outsiders" to distinguish them from creatures that aren't from the prime.

I was talking to UK about Sandalphon's gender bending ray, and UK says that Sandalphon could also give gender to a genderless creature.  I wonder it Sandalphon might actually have invented sex.  Perhaps someone who is better versed in occult lore could confirm or deny this?  Otherwise I can't see why anyone would have ever attributed this power to this particular angel.


----------



## jmucchiello

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Why would that impede you from wanting to purchase it though?



Because even though it is esoteric, it also means that since I find it impossible to separate your OGC from your non-OGC, I can't reuse your material in my own works. And as a publisher I prefer clean OGC to closed or "annoying to figure out if it's open" content.


> Well, like I said, I was just wanting to have one product out there, to have something to show for myself and then, talk to publishers about future products.
> 
> Well I didn't 'acquire' it as much as I...did it all myself.



But was it fun? That's the important part.


> Regarding legal stuff, would you mind if I emailed/private messaged you to double-check I have 6.0 sorted properly this time.



Well I'm glad you didn't. Pointing out problems in a forum is one thing, giving solicited legal advice is very much another. I would have turned you down since I can't legally give you legal advice.


> The only thing I am not sure of at this point is whether or not Upper Planes is Product Identity or not? If it is, I can change it to Upper Realms later and then reload everything.



Still this isn't legal advice, but you should read legal.rtf in the SRD to determine what is or isn't WotC PI. I don't know how you are reffering to Upper Planes, but are you sure you don't actually mean "a good aligned plane". See the SRD entries for non-native outsiders for examples of unnamed outer planes.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

...by the way I got that book Cheiromancer mate - you know the one you sneaky devil. 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Well "planes" can't be anyone's IP, and neither can the notion that heaven is up and hell is down.  I wouldn't invent a private vocabulary to replace terms like "upper planes" and "lower planes".




I'll just leave it then.



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> As for the Far Realm/Place- how about giving it a one-word name like "Outside" or "Beyond"?  I kinda like the latter; pseudonatural critters can be called "beyonders".  If you use the former, you could refer to them as "true outsiders" to distinguish them from creatures that aren't from the prime.




I have just decided to make it all The Far Place. I quite like the sound of that, and its meant to represent the (true) Abyss/Place of Failures.

Outside is too close to Outsiders, and its just far away from, rather than outside the lower dimensions.

Beyond, would be better attributed to the Higher Dimensions. But I don't think I would be able to get away with Beyonders...you are not very familiar with Marvel Comics I would hazard a guess at?



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I was talking to UK about Sandalphon's gender bending ray, and UK says that Sandalphon could also give gender to a genderless creature.  I wonder it Sandalphon might actually have invented sex.  Perhaps someone who is better versed in occult lore could confirm or deny this?  Otherwise I can't see why anyone would have ever attributed this power to this particular angel.




I can chat to Aleister Crowley later and ask him...better versed indeed. 



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Because even though it is esoteric, it also means that since I find it impossible to separate your OGC from your non-OGC, I can't reuse your material in my own works. And as a publisher I prefer clean OGC to closed or "annoying to figure out if it's open" content.




I'll see what I can do. 

I should have the new version sorted in about 2 hours time.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> But was it fun? That's the important part.




Before I did it, no. I was too worried I was just going to make a total mess of everything. But the more pictures I did the happier I became, so in retrospect yes, it was fun.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Well I'm glad you didn't. Pointing out problems in a forum is one thing, giving solicited legal advice is very much another. I would have turned you down since I can't legally give you legal advice.




Thats understandable mate, sometimes its better to work these things out yourself rather than relying on others anyway. 



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Still this isn't legal advice, but you should read legal.rtf in the SRD to determine what is or isn't WotC PI. I don't know how you are reffering to Upper Planes, but are you sure you don't actually mean "a good aligned plane". See the SRD entries for non-native outsiders for examples of unnamed outer planes.




I'll check it out shortly and see exactly what it says.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Just to let you know that the product has been updated and those who have purchased should have the new version available for download. It has all the errata found so far fixed, the bookmarks, the proper d20 licenses and the d20 logo on the cover.

I'm off to sort out RPGNow.

To jmucchiello: I looked over my library of d20 products and could not find one that had a different closing definition of product identity than mine, so with no reference to guide me in that respect I simply had to keep the same sentence. 

Although for what its worth the Immortals Handbook Epic Bestiary doesn't use any third-party material (just from WotC as per the OGL).


----------



## Alzrius

Hey U_K,

Some material I wanted to post regarding the Cogent:

It has "damage reduction 50/epic, lawful and mindless". What exactly is the "mindless" requirement?

The "minds eye" special quality should be "mind's eye".

It has regeneration 50. However, nothing is listed insofar as to what causes lethal damage, then. I'm guessing this should be fast healing 50.

The cogent should have a total of 34 feats. While there are that many listed currently, the Multi-Attack feat (correctly spelled Multiattack), is a bonus feat, and so doesn't count. What's more, you have Power Attack listed twice. So, you should delete the redudant Power Attack and add two feats.

Also, I'm not certain why you have the Multiattack feat listed for the Cogent at all; its full attack listing is 40 bites, all as primary natural weapons (which is fine), meaning that there are no secondary natural weapon attacks for the Multiattack feat to reduce penalties for.

Also, I thought it'd be cool to make a psionic version of the Cogent, since they seem naturally inclined that way. Attached is the Word document with the entry for the Psionic Cogent. It also includes the psionic versions of the Automatic Metamagic Capacity and Metamagic Freedom epic feats. I hope you approve and enjoy!

Also, thanks for the update! I'm downloading it right after I'm done here!  

EDIT: A few things now that I've looked at the edited version, U_K. One, I love the bookmarks! However, I do wonder if you might think about bookmarking the new magic item properties, artifacts, epic spells, etc. Those are things people can easily lift, so they'll want to be able to zoom in on them.

Also, I see you dealt with the issue about the Cogent's DR. However, the line on that reads a bit strange. Shouldn't it instead say "The cogent's damage reduction protects it against natural attacks from sentient creatures or intelligent weapons." since "non-epic and natural attacks from sentient creatures" seems to imply that epic natural attacks from sentient creatures would overcome the DR, which it wouldn't.

Also, the Adaption power might require some clarification; you may want to add that they don't take damage or penalties from any natural environment, just to be safe. Also, while you added that to the Adamic dragon qualities, the Nehaschimic dragons still need it.

Also, the Legendary template should say that it also adds the Extraplanar subtype.

Other than that though, great job!

EDIT AGAIN: I've removed the Word file here for the Psionic Cogent. Instead, there's a link to its entry in the d20 NPC Wiki further down.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Gold within Gold Dragon is a great sub-name.



Atomic number 158!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> It reads a tad complicated for my tastes.



My basic goal is to allow them to automatically make 'active' use of the gaze attack to affect very large groups of people by moving across them.  No, I think I can fix this.


----------



## jmucchiello

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> To jmucchiello: I looked over my library of d20 products and could not find one that had a different closing definition of product identity than mine, so with no reference to guide me in that respect I simply had to keep the same sentence.



We were talking about the last line of your declaration of open gaming content, not PI. And if that line is in your entire library, your library must consist solely of products by only one or two companies (other than WotC whose products don't claim OGC). Try looking at the Unearthed Arcana declaration. Simple. A ten-year old could go through the book with a highlighter and cross out all of the non-ogc in the book with 100% accuracy. Your declaration would stymie most IP lawyers. That is the heart of the esoteric debate.

IMO, you can probably (although without reading the book I can be sure) replace the comma after "and new material (orichaicum)" with a period and drop the rest of the sentence without affecting what is or is not OGC in your book.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hey U_K,




Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Some material I wanted to post regarding the Cogent:




*Now* you tell me. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It has "damage reduction 50/epic, lawful and mindless". What exactly is the "mindless" requirement?




Non-intelligent. Zero intelligence score.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The "minds eye" special quality should be "mind's eye".




Those apostraphes will be the death of me. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It has regeneration 50. However, nothing is listed insofar as to what causes lethal damage, then. I'm guessing this should be fast healing 50.




True, it should be fast healing so that it doesn't regenerate lost tentacles.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The cogent should have a total of 34 feats. While there are that many listed currently, the Multi-Attack feat (correctly spelled Multiattack), is a bonus feat, and so doesn't count. What's more, you have Power Attack listed twice. So, you should delete the redudant Power Attack and add two feats.
> 
> Also, I'm not certain why you have the Multiattack feat listed for the Cogent at all; its full attack listing is 40 bites, all as primary natural weapons (which is fine), meaning that there are no secondary natural weapon attacks for the Multiattack feat to reduce penalties for.




Okay.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, I thought it'd be cool to make a psionic version of the Cogent, since they seem naturally inclined that way. Attached is the Word document with the entry for the Psionic Cogent. It also includes the psionic versions of the Automatic Metamagic Capacity and Metamagic Freedom epic feats. I hope you approve and enjoy!




Thanks that looks great, I'll put a link on my website next time I update.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, thanks for the update! I'm downloading it right after I'm done here!
> 
> EDIT: A few things now that I've looked at the edited version, U_K. One, I love the bookmarks! However, I do wonder if you might think about bookmarking the new magic item properties, artifacts, epic spells, etc. Those are things people can easily lift, so they'll want to be able to zoom in on them.




I'll see what I can do for v1.3.    

Also, I see you dealt with the issue about the Cogent's DR. However, the line on that reads a bit strange. Shouldn't it instead say "The cogent's damage reduction protects it against natural attacks from sentient creatures or intelligent weapons." since "non-epic and natural attacks from sentient creatures" seems to imply that epic natural attacks from sentient creatures would overcome the DR, which it wouldn't.[/QUOTE]



Also, the Adaption power might require some clarification; you may want to add that they don't take damage or penalties from any natural environment, just to be safe. [/QUOTE]





			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, while you added that to the Adamic dragon qualities, the Nehaschimic dragons still need it.




Nehaschimic Dragons have all the powers of Adamic Dragons except where noted.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, the Legendary template should say that it also adds the Extraplanar subtype.




Indeed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Other than that though, great job!




Thanks for the feedback mate.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> My basic goal is to allow them to automatically make 'active' use of the gaze attack to affect very large groups of people by moving across them. No, I think I can fix this.




I thought that was how gaze worked anyway. 



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> We were talking about the last line of your declaration of open gaming content, not PI.




Thats what I meant, just a slip of the tongue.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> And if that line is in your entire library, your library must consist solely of products by only one or two companies (other than WotC whose products don't claim OGC).




Well I do have a lot of Sword & Sorcery stuff to be fair...  :\ 



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Try looking at the Unearthed Arcana declaration. Simple. A ten-year old could go through the book with a highlighter and cross out all of the non-ogc in the book with 100% accuracy. Your declaration would stymie most IP lawyers. That is the heart of the esoteric debate.
> 
> IMO, you can probably (although without reading the book I can be sure) replace the comma after "and new material (orichaicum)" with a period and drop the rest of the sentence without affecting what is or is not OGC in your book.




I'll do that with Version 1.3. 

Okay, I tried to upload Version 1.2 to RPGNow last night, but there was a bit of a mix up on the password side of things. However this presents the opportunity for a v1.3 where I can tweak the most recent pieces of errata and finally fix the OGC declaration.

One thing I am curious about though, when I update the product do people just get sent an email from ENWorld telling them there is an updated version available for download? Is that the way it works?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Non-intelligent. Zero intelligence score.




And for the most part, what you have there makes sense, save for the "non-epic" mention of the DR line. As an aside, there's a big difference between being mindless (having no Intelligence score) and having a 0 Intelligence (which isn't truly mindless).



> _True, it should be fast healing so that it doesn't regenerate lost tentacles._




The growing them back in a day (mentioned under "birthquake") notwithstanding, since that's too slow to be a form of regeneration as d20 has it.



> _Thanks that looks great, I'll put a link on my website next time I update._




I just updated that for an error that I'd made. The psionic cogent had too many power points before. It's fixed now. I'll update it again for the tweaks you make to the cogent for v.1.3.

I'd have posted it on Feiari's wiki, but I wasn't sure how to make a new entry there. If it'd work better for you, you can just cut-and-paste the entire thing onto your website; a surprisingly large amount of people don't use Word (or Word-based applications), so that might work better.



> _Nehaschimic Dragons have all the powers of Adamic Dragons except where noted._




That's not what it says. It says they have all the traits of epic dragons, not adamic dragons.



> _I thought that was how gaze worked anyway. _




The way gaze attacks normally work is that each character facing a gaze-attack monster must make a save on their turn. On the monster's turn, it can deliberately gaze at a character as a standard action, forcing that character to then make another save.



> _One thing I am curious about though, when I update the product do people just get sent an email from ENWorld telling them there is an updated version available for download? Is that the way it works?_




An email isn't sent (or at least, I don't get one). Rather, the next time you go to "My ENGS Account" (your bookshelf), the tag that usually reads "download" has changed to "*updated" letting you know that there's a new version available.


----------



## Kerrick

Here, UK. This is a very clear declaration of OGC. I had a question about IP and OGC, and Hal was kind enough to post this example for me.

Oh, BTW - I got a Paypal account set up, so as soon as I get some money into it, I'm going to buy a copy of the Bestiary.


----------



## Alzrius

Hm, U_K's website appears to be down again.


----------



## jmucchiello

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'll do that with Version 1.3.



Don't do it on my account.  Only change it if that's what content you want to release.


----------



## Fieari

Adding a new entry to the d20 npc wiki isn't _too_ complicated, but does require a little explanation.

Step one is to go to the "All monsters by CR" page here: http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/D20_NPCs_by_Challenge_Rating

Scroll down to the CR area you want to add it to, and click the edit button.  For the most part, you'll be clicking the edit button right next to the "Epic (CR 20 to 159) NPCs and Creatures" listing, or possibly the "Cosmic" listing.

If the CR you're adding already has a section, put the name of your creature under there, surrounded by [[ ]] marks, and followed by a <br>.  If not, add your CR surrounded by === === marks.  Basically, follow the format given by the other entries, you'll do fine.  Save the changes.

Click the red link you just created.  It'll take you to the page to add your new creature.  Add it in.  Then you're done!

If you're intimidated by wiki-markup (slightly different from HTML and board markup) you can go to this page: http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/NPC_Templates
Click edit next to the format you want, copy the text there, and modify it as you need before dropping it into your creature page.

By the way, I statted up A'tuin like I said I would earlier, just for fun.  I used the Dragon Turtle as a base, removed some of the dragon powers, then raised its size to Mega-Gargantuan.  I think this is currently the largest statted creature in existance right now.  It has nearly 11 billion hit points and more than 15 million damage reduction.  It resists 5000 fire, cold, electricity, and 6000 of radiation, which should nicely enable it to fly through space.  These stats should be similarly in line with the stats of a planet (a planet would be somewhat tougher, being made mostly of iron, but then, a planet can't move on its own and dodge/deflect stray comets) so consider this a LOWER limit for planet-busting spells and weapons.  http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/A'tuin_the_Star_Turtle


----------



## Alzrius

Fieari said:
			
		

> Adding a new entry to the d20 npc wiki isn't _too_ complicated, but does require a little explanation.




Thansk Fieari!   



> _It has nearly 11 billion hit points and more than 15 million damage reduction.  It resists 5000 fire, cold, electricity, and 6000 of radiation, which should nicely enable it to fly through space.  These stats should be similarly in line with the stats of a planet (a planet would be somewhat tougher, being made mostly of iron, but then, a planet can't move on its own and dodge/deflect stray comets) so consider this a LOWER limit for planet-busting spells and weapons. _




I think you may have overestimated somewhat, at least where hit points are concerned. The _Bestiary_ says, under the Neutronium Golem's Combat section, that an Earth-sized planet has 80,000 hit points.


----------



## Fieari

Hm.  Well, I guess an earth-sized turtle has a few more hit points than an earth sized hunk of iron...


----------



## Alzrius

_The Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary vol. 1_ becomes EN Gamestore #1 bestseller!

*WOOT!!!*  


Hat's off to you U_K! You deserve it! How does it feel to have a project so long in the works hit the top so quickly?

I think I can honestly say that none of us who knew about this before it was released are too surprised. The IH really is one of a kind.


----------



## Alzrius

Some more edits for the future:

The Amilictli has 28 feats listed, but should have 29.

Nimrod, being a wizard, should have Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat. You may want to put in his entry that he's a 41st-level human wizard, and then give him his extra feat for being human.

Alabaster seems to have too many feats. He should get 40 from normal levels, and 59 fighter bonus feats, and 10 from his Amidah template, for 109 (non-bonus) feats altogether. However, he has 111. You could edit his entry to say he's a 117th-level human vampire fighter, and that'd add one more, but he'd still have one too many.

Also, why isn't Alabaster getting four attacks The Sword of a Thousand Names? It seems like he should get iterative attacks with it.

Argento is missing one feat; he has 10 from hit dice, where he should have 11. In glancing at the cloud giant entry, he seems to be missing his Iron Will feat.

Belius should not have a superscripted B next to his Improved Initiative feat; as a balor, he already had that feat prior to gaining the Atata template.

Syzygy has 10 feats from normal progression; with 30 HD, he should have 11.

The dire tyrannosaurus has 10 feats; it should have 13 (presumably the missing Toughness feats).

Airavata has 11 feats; he should have 15.

The medium quintessence elemental has 8 feats from normal progression; it should have 7.

The large unelemental has 10 feats; it should have 11.

The huge unelemental has 13 feats; it should have 14.

The greater unelemental has 18 feats; it should have 21.

The elder unelemental has 24 feats; it should have 27.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> And for the most part, what you have there makes sense, save for the "non-epic" mention of the DR line. As an aside, there's a big difference between being mindless (having no Intelligence score) and having a 0 Intelligence (which isn't truly mindless).




I'll sort it out for v1.3.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The growing them back in a day (mentioned under "birthquake") notwithstanding, since that's too slow to be a form of regeneration as d20 has it.




I'll have a think about that.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I just updated that for an error that I'd made. The psionic cogent had too many power points before. It's fixed now. I'll update it again for the tweaks you make to the cogent for v.1.3.
> 
> I'd have posted it on Feiari's wiki, but I wasn't sure how to make a new entry there. If it'd work better for you, you can just cut-and-paste the entire thing onto your website; a surprisingly large amount of people don't use Word (or Word-based applications), so that might work better.




I think Fieari posts the details below...which I am just realising you must have seen long before me.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That's not what it says. It says they have all the traits of epic dragons, not adamic dragons.




Ah, okay, that needs sorted then.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> An email isn't sent (or at least, I don't get one). Rather, the next time you go to "My ENGS Account" (your bookshelf), the tag that usually reads "download" has changed to "*updated" letting you know that there's a new version available.




Thanks for clarifying that.



			
				kerrick said:
			
		

> Here, UK. This is a very clear declaration of OGC. I had a question about IP and OGC, and Hal was kind enough to post this example for me.




I appreciate the help mate.



			
				kerrick said:
			
		

> Oh, BTW - I got a Paypal account set up, so as soon as I get some money into it, I'm going to buy a copy of the Bestiary.




I apologise for taking so long to sort RPGNow out. I finally managed to send them the file last night at midnight, and it says they take up to 24 hours to review it before they allow it on sale.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hm, U_K's website appears to be down again.




Theres a novelty.  

I'll email them in a moment. Looks like repairs though rather than hackers this time.



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> Don't do it on my account.  Only change it if that's what content you want to release.




I want to make everything as clear as possible for gamers and other publishers.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> By the way, I statted up A'tuin like I said I would earlier, just for fun. I used the Dragon Turtle as a base, removed some of the dragon powers, then raised its size to Mega-Gargantuan. I think this is currently the largest statted creature in existance right now. It has nearly 11 billion hit points and more than 15 million damage reduction. It resists 5000 fire, cold, electricity, and 6000 of radiation, which should nicely enable it to fly through space. These stats should be similarly in line with the stats of a planet (a planet would be somewhat tougher, being made mostly of iron, but then, a planet can't move on its own and dodge/deflect stray comets) so consider this a LOWER limit for planet-busting spells and weapons. http://d20npcs.wikicities.com/wiki/...the_Star_Turtle




Very nice. A planet wouldn't have Hit Dice, only bonus hit points derived from size (as per constructs). However to destroy a planet you would need to deal roughly 80,000 damage in one attack, there would be no point dealing 1 hit point damage, 80,000 times over.

I'll take a crack at the Challenge Rating when I post up the link on my website. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary vol. 1 becomes EN Gamestore #1 bestseller!
> 
> WOOT!!!
> 
> Hat's off to you U_K! You deserve it! How does it feel to have a project so long in the works hit the top so quickly?




I must admit I was shocked when Rulemaster mentioned it to me on msn this morning. The amazing thing is that the number of sales at ENWorld Shop is still less than the number of pre-orders copies sold on my website.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I think I can honestly say that none of us who knew about this before it was released are too surprised. The IH really is one of a kind.




Hopefully this mini-success will pique the curiousity of Publishers interested in doing a print version.

Regarding the latest errata Alzrius mate, Vampire gives you five bonus feats, hence the 114. I'll fix the rest for v1.3. Thanks.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Regarding the latest errata Alzrius mate, Vampire gives you five bonus feats, hence the 114. I'll fix the rest for v1.3. Thanks.




I took the vampire bonus feats into account, hence why I said he should have "109 (non-bonus) feats". It's not 114, it's that he has five feats with a superscript B (the vampire bonus feats), and 111 feats from his level progression, fighter bonus feats, and Amidah templates; he should only have 109 from those.

Also, the cometary dragon advancement listing has two entries for "great, great wyrm".

The juvenile cometary dragon has 50 feats; it should have 51.

The wyrmling nexus dragon has 130 feats; it should have 139.

The void dragon advancement listing has two entries for "wyrm". Also, on table D-28, the size abbreviation for the great wyrm void dragon should be "Ma-D" (and depending on which advancement entry for "wyrm" is right, that entry on the table may need to be "Ma-D" also).


----------



## Fieari

I just considered what might be a better mechanic for dealing damage to objects and creatures so large they have their own significant gravity wells... what about giving them "Regeneration X/Massive Damage", in that the only lethal damage obtained is that which deals more than a particular threshold.  This simulates the fact that gravity is holding the thing together, and that to do damage, one must cause particles to exceede excape velocity.  (This might be a good mechanic for the Nuetronium Golem too, in fact)

The question would be determining the X for a given size, and also determining the massive damage threshold.


----------



## weiknarf

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey guys!
> 
> I apologise for taking so long to sort RPGNow out. I finally managed to send them the file last night at midnight, and it says they take up to 24 hours to review it before they allow it on sale.




It's up on RPGNow now.


----------



## historian

> Hat's off to you U_K! You deserve it! How does it feel to have a project so long in the works hit the top so quickly?
> 
> I think I can honestly say that none of us who knew about this before it was released are too surprised. The IH really is one of a kind.




Agreed 100%.

Congratulations U_K!

Merry Christmas to you as well.


----------



## Fieari

I don't see it on RPGNow... link?


----------



## Alzrius

Fieari said:
			
		

> I don't see it on RPGNow... link?




It's here. Though it looks like the blurb formatting still needs to be cleaned up a little.

Being that Eternity Publishing is a new small press publisher, it got put over on RPGnow Edge.


----------



## Alzrius

Thanks to Fieari's advice, I was able to go in and add the Psionic Cogent entry to the d20 NPC Wiki. As such, I've removed the attached Word file from further up in the thread. Thanks again Fieari!


----------



## Alzrius

A few more things:

The Amidah template is definately a superior version of the paragon template. That said, it doesn't seem to grant some of the perks the paragon template does. It doesn't apply its luck bonus to damage rolls. It doesn't let the base creature strike with their natural or melee weapons as epic for purposes of overcoming DR. I'd say it grants less SR, but under your CR system, that may not be accurate.

The section on dragons (under the Epic dragon immunities) says they're immune to, among other things, subdual damage. This should be "nonlethal" damage, as they changed the name of it from 3E to 3.5E.

In the void dragon's Entropic Mastery description, second paragraph, second sentence, it says "unelemental" where it should say "void dragon".

The very young void dragon's Special Qualities line notes that it has sonic immunity...I can't see from what, however.

Also, about Alabaster's sword Dark Nemesis. I know I suggested having the word "summon" in its power be italicized, so it's clear that it's like a normals summons (e.g. the summoned being can't use its own summoning powers). You might want to change that to an italicized "call" so the nemesis can then use their own summons. Also, add in a comma right after the closing bracket in "[GMs choice]". Likewise, the "GMs" should have an apostraphe there.

Shouldn't the Quintessence elementals and Unelementals all have the Extraplanar subtype?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Merry Christmas all! 

apologies for not being online last night. I was spending time with friends and only got back about midnight.

Firstly, as some of you have already pointed out, the Bestiary is on sale at RPGNow. Unfortunately, there was another mix-up (they must have missed where I ticked I wanted to become a Gold Vendor) so although they are selling the Bestiary they haven't got it in the shop window as it were. I will email them momentarily to rectify this.

Secondly, the website is back online, but only takes us up to the 12th of December (they broke for repairs on the 14th). So all I have to do is update the site and everything will be back to normal. Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to access my control panel to do that. I will email them momentarily to rectify this. I was hoping to update the website today with stats for my version of Demogorgon.

Thanks for the continued editing Alzrius mate. I should point out that the version on sale at RPGNow is still v1.2. I may not get v1.3 finished until tomorrow.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I just considered what might be a better mechanic for dealing damage to objects and creatures so large they have their own significant gravity wells... what about giving them "Regeneration X/Massive Damage", in that the only lethal damage obtained is that which deals more than a particular threshold.  This simulates the fact that gravity is holding the thing together, and that to do damage, one must cause particles to exceede excape velocity.  (This might be a good mechanic for the Nuetronium Golem too, in fact)
> 
> The question would be determining the X for a given size, and also determining the massive damage threshold.




Interesting idea. I may well steal that. 



			
				weiknarf said:
			
		

> It's up on RPGNow now.




Thanks for keeping everyone appraised weiknarf dude! Well spotted! I can't even find it on their website, I had to do a search to get it.  :\ 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Agreed 100%.
> 
> Congratulations U_K!
> 
> Merry Christmas to you as well.








			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It's here. Though it looks like the blurb formatting still needs to be cleaned up a little.
> 
> Being that Eternity Publishing is a new small press publisher, it got put over on RPGnow Edge.




I don't know what the heck is going on. The blurb went in properly, but it doesn't look the same. I'll have to edit that. Also, like I said, I should have been a Gold Vendor, so I'll see about sorting that out immediately.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Thanks to Fieari's advice, I was able to go in and add the Psionic Cogent entry to the d20 NPC Wiki. As such, I've removed the attached Word file from further up in the thread. Thanks again Fieari!




Great stuff, I'll post the link as soon as I am able to update. Whenever that will be.


----------



## Pssthpok

Hey, UK,

How will customers be informed of these impending verions? Such as it is, I have a copy of the Bestiary that you send out to people who purchased the art-less preview previously. If things are continuously editted (version 1.3 now?) how wil lyour customers be kept abreast of these changes without having to buy the product again and again?


----------



## Alzrius

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> How will customers be informed of these impending verions? Such as it is, I have a copy of the Bestiary that you send out to people who purchased the art-less preview previously. If things are continuously editted (version 1.3 now?) how wil lyour customers be kept abreast of these changes without having to buy the product again and again?




When U_K sent out the official release, he did so through the EN Gamestore. When he did so, the email about it gave you the option of adding the product to your bookshelf. If you did so, then whenever he updates the product here on the Gamestore, the "download" tag on your bookshelf for the product will instead read "*updated". Just click the button to redownload the new version.


----------



## Pssthpok

Ah, excellent. Thanks!


----------



## Verequus

In this thread is a link, where you can download Legends of Avandu for free! http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=161115


----------



## Zoatebix

It's well worth the timea to check out the link.  I should know - I paid money for Legends of Avandu.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

apologies for not posting over the past 48 hours, been away from the computer for the majority of it.

I just wanted to say that it looks like my website is back to normal...for now at least.

I'll update that again either tonight or tomorrow. I want to post up the stats for Demogorgon, but there are a few things I need to tweak on my version of the Prince of Demons.

...and thanks for the link to Legends of Avadnu Rulemaster mate, I remember loving their preview of that product. I'll be interested to look over the whole thing.


----------



## Alzrius

A bit more errata:

The Kiloton epic spell Spellcraft DC seems slightly off. It uses four seeds, for a base cost of 87.  It then adds 412 in factors, and then subtracts 120 in mitigating factors. That should work out to a total cost of 379, not 381. Also, since you burn 10,000 XP on the spell, the "Components" line should have "XP" listed. Likewise, a mitigating factor is "increase casting time to 10 minutes", but the "Casting Time" line says it only takes 1 action.

The wyrmling nexus dragon is listed as being immune to fire. I can't see where this is coming from.

A lot of creatures (such as dragons) have spellcasting abilities at a level equal to half their hit dice, but have their caster level be equal to the full hit dice. How is that?

A lot of creatures are shown (in their tactics section) as casting multiple quickened spells in a round. How can they do that, since the Quicken Spell feat expressly prohibits that (something that wouldn't be circumvented with Metamagic Freedom)?


----------



## Sledge

So now that ENWorld is back up can we get an update on the status of apotheosis?


----------



## Fieari

Hey, I know I said I wasn't going to do this, but I did it anyway.  Full stats for Bahamut, according to the IH: Here.

Looks to me like the Lord of the North Wind has a bit of an advantage over the Creator of Evil Dragonkind... fast healing and a horn that smites?  Plus the whole powerful dire charge thing, and more HD to boot.  No wonder that for all Tiamat's hatred of Bahamut, she hasn't simply gone and torn his throat out.  She isn't simply avoiding a fight that could go either way, she's holding back from getting herself slaughtered.  And Bahamut hasn't gone and killed Tiamat mostly because he's merciful, and might still be holding out hope for her...

I wonder what would happen if the two ever mated...


----------



## Alzrius

U_K, only three days left (IIRC) to submit the _Bestiary_ to the ENnies. Is everything taken care of?


----------



## Upper_Krust

...well thats one way to prune the boards I guess. 

Hey Sledge mate! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> So now that ENWorld is back up can we get an update on the status of apotheosis?




Ascension I think you mean.

The current status is unfinished. I should have the first previews up in a week or so though, along with the Ascension cover.

I'm thinking that I'll have a preview of Achilles and then a week later a preview of Surtur...or something like that.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Hey, I know I said I wasn't going to do this, but I did it anyway.  Full stats for Bahamut, according to the IH: Here.




Cool. I'll post links on my website tonight.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Looks to me like the Lord of the North Wind has a bit of an advantage over the Creator of Evil Dragonkind... fast healing and a horn that smites?  Plus the whole powerful dire charge thing, and more HD to boot.  No wonder that for all Tiamat's hatred of Bahamut, she hasn't simply gone and torn his throat out.  She isn't simply avoiding a fight that could go either way, she's holding back from getting herself slaughtered.  And Bahamut hasn't gone and killed Tiamat mostly because he's merciful, and might still be holding out hope for her...




I suspect that magically Tiamat is the more powerful of the two, whereas Bahamut is the more physically capable.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I wonder what would happen if the two ever mated...




Bi-metallic Dragons? Poly-metallic Dragons?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> U_K, only three days left (IIRC) to submit the _Bestiary_ to the ENnies. Is everything taken care of?




Yes, although you just reminded me I forgot to paypal them the $5 fee* (although don't worry, they won't have received my entries through the post yet...I sent them last Thursday).

*Just sent it. 

Thanks for keeping tabs on me.


----------



## Kalitharus

Fieari said:
			
		

> Hey, I know I said I wasn't going to do this, but I did it anyway.  Full stats for Bahamut, according to the IH: Here.
> 
> Looks to me like the Lord of the North Wind has a bit of an advantage over the Creator of Evil Dragonkind... fast healing and a horn that smites?  Plus the whole powerful dire charge thing, and more HD to boot.  No wonder that for all Tiamat's hatred of Bahamut, she hasn't simply gone and torn his throat out.  She isn't simply avoiding a fight that could go either way, she's holding back from getting herself slaughtered.  And Bahamut hasn't gone and killed Tiamat mostly because he's merciful, and might still be holding out hope for her...
> 
> I wonder what would happen if the two ever mated...




The two would'nt mate; they are brother and sister (both born of Io millennia ago)


----------



## paradox42

Kalitharus said:
			
		

> The two would'nt mate; they are brother and sister (both born of Io millennia ago)



Puh-leeze. Can you seriously claim that Tiamat, given her alignment, wouldn't mate with a brother if it advanced her goals in some way? Be serious.  

As a completely random side thought, at least my postcount is still in double digits at least... sigh.


----------



## Fieari

I didn't know that.  I guess the next step will require statting out Io... he'd have to be Adamic, I'm guessing.  Pity that neither the Cometary nor the Void dragon really fit.

Hmm.

I wonder if Gestalting the 9 dragon types with the cometary dragon would work...


----------



## Alzrius

Kalitharus said:
			
		

> The two would'nt mate; they are brother and sister (both born of Io millennia ago)




That's hardly a deterrent. Classical mythology is filled with divine incest, many times wth no real upset or consequences.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Fieari said:
			
		

> I didn't know that.  I guess the next step will require statting out Io... he'd have to be Adamic, I'm guessing.  Pity that neither the Cometary nor the Void dragon really fit.
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> I wonder if Gestalting the 9 dragon types with the cometary dragon would work...




Io, or rather the Adamic Dragon race from which Io springs (Stellar Dragon) will be in Volume 2 of the Bestiary. 

What other dragons would people like to see in there? I was thinking Quasar Dragon, Stellar Dragon, and maybe two epic dragons. Any thoughts on which dragon classes you would like to see?

Platinum = Draco-Paladin
Polychromatic = Draco-Sorcerer
Timber = Draco-Druid
Titanium = Draco-Knight

Force Dragon = ? (Draco-Wizard perhaps)
Prismatic Dragon = ? (Draco-Ranger maybe)

So you still have, the

Draco-Barbarian = Rune Dragon
Draco Bard = I kind of like Anabstercorians interpretation, the Transuranic Dragon
Draco-Cleric = 
Draco-Monk = 
Draco-Psion = Diamond Dragon
Draco-Rogue = Achromatic Dragon

I am sure I have names for those other Dragons somewhere.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Io, or rather the Adamic Dragon race from which Io springs (Stellar Dragon) will be in Volume 2 of the Bestiary.
> 
> What other dragons would people like to see in there? I was thinking Quasar Dragon, Stellar Dragon, and maybe two epic dragons. Any thoughts on which dragon classes you would like to see?
> 
> Platinum = Draco-Paladin
> Polychromatic = Draco-Sorcerer
> Timber = Draco-Druid
> Titanium = Draco-Knight
> 
> Force Dragon = ? (Draco-Wizard perhaps)
> Prismatic Dragon = ? (Draco-Ranger maybe)
> 
> So you still have, the
> 
> Draco-Barbarian = Rune Dragon
> Draco Bard = I kind of like Anabstercorians interpretation, the Transuranic Dragon
> Draco-Cleric =
> Draco-Monk =
> Draco-Psion = Diamond Dragon
> Draco-Rogue = Achromatic Dragon
> 
> I am sure I have names for those other Dragons somewhere.




Well, I'd like to see the Diamond dragon and Draco-Monk, myself. Don't forget to make a Draco-Psychic Warrior, Draco-Wilder, and Draco-Soulknife as well!   

I have to admit though, I'm not too keen on the name Diamond dragon, mostly because it's been done before. Maybe the Fullerite dragon instead?

I'm most interested in what nehaschemic dragon we're going to see next, though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Well, I'd like to see the Diamond dragon and Draco-Monk, myself.




The Draco-Monk has 6 legs.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Don't forget to make a Draco-Psychic Warrior, Draco-Wilder, and Draco-Soulknife as well!




I nearly spat my drink over myself with that one.  

I think I may leave those up to individual DMs.  



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I have to admit though, I'm not too keen on the name Diamond dragon, mostly because it's been done before. Maybe the Fullerite dragon instead?




Interesting. Though I prefer the name Ultra Dragon to Fullerite Dragon, even though it does sound a bit Final Fantasy-ish.   



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm most interested in what nehaschemic dragon we're going to see next, though.




Quasar Dragon in Vol. 2
Black Hole Dragon in Vol. 3

The reason being that with the Umbrals in Vol. 2 I don't want to go over my jet black monster quota for one book.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Snow white isn't significantly better off. 

Do you need a material/theme for the cleric/monk dragons?

Also, would you quit talking about the second bestiary?  It's ridiculous enough that you released the first bestiary without the rules to use it, but trying to get us excited about the second one, when we still have no assurance that your actual divine rules will be any good - and to be dead frank, your first published draft of the bestiary was riddled with fairly significant errors, and I'm _still_ disconcerted by your decision to not to change seventh sense in to something that can actually be used.  Quit waving your e-dick around until there's some substance to it.


----------



## paradox42

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Io, or rather the Adamic Dragon race from which Io springs (Stellar Dragon) will be in Volume 2 of the Bestiary.
> 
> What other dragons would people like to see in there? I was thinking Quasar Dragon, Stellar Dragon, and maybe two epic dragons. Any thoughts on which dragon classes you would like to see?
> 
> Platinum = Draco-Paladin
> Polychromatic = Draco-Sorcerer
> Timber = Draco-Druid
> Titanium = Draco-Knight
> 
> Force Dragon = ? (Draco-Wizard perhaps)
> Prismatic Dragon = ? (Draco-Ranger maybe)
> 
> So you still have, the
> 
> Draco-Barbarian = Rune Dragon
> Draco Bard = I kind of like Anabstercorians interpretation, the Transuranic Dragon
> Draco-Cleric =
> Draco-Monk =
> Draco-Psion = Diamond Dragon
> Draco-Rogue = Achromatic Dragon
> 
> I am sure I have names for those other Dragons somewhere.




Actually, shouldn't the Rune Dragon be the Wizard? Runes are typically associated with magic, and at least some form of scholarship, so it looks like the best fit to me. The Diamond and Achromatic Dragons sound very cool in their own right, particularly if you equate Achromatic with a Rogue!

And why reinterpret the Force and Prismatic Dragons at all? In my own game, I already have an explanation for their existence which has nothing to do with the IH Epic Dragons- I actually refer to the IH "Epic" dragons as "Divine Dragons" in acknowledgement of the fact that they have effective divine ranks (among other things). I'm using the Polychromatics as instigators of a civil war among "true" dragons, and the ELH Epic Dragons (along with three others of my own design) as an invading force also instigated by the Polychromatics, all of this instigation being a means of weakening the world in preparation for a coming demonic invasion.

I agree about the Transuranic Dragon- that severely rocked! Anabstercorian, did you save that post so it can be reposted and finished?


----------



## Anabstercorian

It did, I'll repost it.  Just a moment.

Transuranic Dragon

  He had called himself a god.  For centuries, he had bandied tales of me amongst his pantheonic companions.  For decades, he had dreamed of bringing my scales to them, draped about his shoulders as a coat.  For years, he had prepared for the undertaking of my death, assembling an armory fit to unhinge worlds from their axis.  For months, he had followed my trail, sniffing me out through the cosmos.  For weeks, he had spied upon my doings and my lair.  For days he meditated on his nature and his goals, remaking himself in to my very bane.
  He crept upon me in the darkness of my bedroom, lit only by the dull glow of my larder and my scales, and I seduced him with a flutter of my eyes and peeled him from his leaden armor and orichalcum sword to my pillows and cushions, and when he had roasted to a fine boil from the gamma shine pouring from my body I sucked the radioactive marrow from his bones and rested for another century.  I knew he would return to quest against me again, for he had fallen in love with me, as so many do.

Bardic Dragons, Siren Dragons, Gold-Within-Gold Dragons
Dragon (Chaotic, Extraplanar, Radiation)
Environment: Any with radioactive elements
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating:
Treasure: Triple Standard, replace all organic items with inorganic art objects
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: blah
Level adjustment: blah

 This graceful dragon's long body coils like a snake, fringed with St. Elmo's Fire and a coating of soft, downy tendrils.  It's catfish whiskers reach about aimlessly, it's short legs droop lazily.  It shines gold-within-gold, brilliant and bright and beautiful.

 The siren dragons are wandering aesthetes, slipping from world to world on cosmic electromagnetic tides whenever they have had their fill of the treasures of their current home.  None brook them their casual thefts, their lazy predation upon the world they witness, for their beauty and presence is magnified by their glory and all who view them ache to give tribute.  They prey chiefly upon the technological civilizations that produce the transuranic elements they thrive upon.  Many are the baryonic lords who have fallen under the spell of the siren dragons and sacrificed the backbone of their infrastructures to their new golden gods.
 Their scales are a dull gray at birth, but begin to glow with deadly radiations as they age, transforming to their entrancing gold-within-gold.  Though newborns hold perhaps four whiskers, ancient specimens have thousands and can smell the tell-tale scent of transuranic elements from across galaxies, casually drifting to their source over the course of stellar lifetimes to pick through what's left of them by their time of arrival.
 Transuranic dragons are material beings, for all their power, dwelling in the Prime Material plane in vast, incredibly beautiful palaces built by slave nations.  They enjoy performance art, unconcerned with the inevitable radiation poisoning suffered by those who enter their presence.
 Transuranic dragons, unlike virtually all other dragons, can consume only the radioactive elements that they crave, their metabolisms rejecting other materials.  Though they can thrive indefinitely on as little as uranium ore and heavy water, their refined palates ache for the unstable transuranic elements, tritium wine, and impossibly rare elements with more than a hundred and twenty protons per nucleus.

COMBAT
  Siren dragons prefer not to fight, instead bedeviling their foes with their soothing, entrancing voices whilst their opponents exhaust themselves against their durant hides and their deadly ambient energies.
  Breath Weapon (Su): Siren dragons are named in part for their deafening cry.  It is so loud and shrill that it collapses bubbles hidden in water, sending the atmosphere within them in to fusion.  A chain reaction can quickly ensue that transforms water to steam, or flesh to a steaming pudding.  In addition to it's sonic disruption, it deals a vast amount of damage to all creatures containing water, due to the explosion of it in to steam and radiation. 
  Body Fire (Ex): Siren dragons fly by means of electromagnetic effects created by their body fire, the soft downy tendrils that cover their heads, necks, backs and shoulers.  Because the effect is not magical, it is not dependent on antimagic fields, but it is vulnerable to electromagnetic disruption.
  Impregnability (Ex): Siren dragons, like the transuranic elements that they embody, are dense as to make lead seem like foam.  Although they are much smaller than other epic dragons, they enjoy the benefits of three virtual size categories, befitting their stupendous mass.
  Great Charisma (Ex): Siren dragons enjoy an eerie, seemingly divine natural charisma.  They gain a bonus Great Charisma epic feat, granting them an additional +2 Charisma each and every age category.
  Gold-Within-Gold (Su): The scales of the siren dragon can induce a worshipful fervor in those who look upon them.  They function as an gaze attack with a radius of 60 feet per age category that Charms those who fail a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 hit dice + Charisma modifier).  The charm effect is permanent, until dispelled (CL equal to bard caster level).
  If a siren dragon actively attempts to use the gold-within-gold scales as an attack action, they affect everyone within range.
  Awful Presence: While most epic dragons inspire panic and terror, siren dragons inspire a stunning awe.  Replace their Terrifying Presence with a paralyzing aura like that of more benign deities.

Spell Like Abilities: Transuranic Dragons spell like abilities are almost wholly themed around their nuclear and material power.  They never gain the ability to permanently create nuclear material that can sustain them except by corrupting other material, which they can do very early. _(
Very Young: 13th Level, turns water in to heavy water.
Juvenile: 19th Level.
Adult: 25th Level
Old: 31st Level
Ancient: 37th Level
Great Wyrm: 43rd Level
)_

Spellcasting, Singing: As a bard of 1/2 it's hit dice.



		Code:
	

Age          | Size | Hit Dice (hp) | BAB/Grapple | Fort | Refl | Will | Breath Weapon | Awful Presence DC |
Wyrmling     | M    | 21d20
Very Young   | L    | 27d20
Young        | L    | 33d20
Juvenile     | L    | 39d20
Young Adult  | L    | 45d20
Adult        | L    | 51d20
Mature Adult | H    | 57d20
Old          | H    | 63d20
Very Old     | H    | 69d20
Ancient      | H    | 75d20
Wyrm         | H    | 81d20
Great Wyrm   | H    | 87d20

Age          | Str  | Dex  | Con  | Int  | Wis  | Cha  |
Wyrmling     | 
Very Young   | 
Young        | 
Juvenile     | 
Young Adult  | 
Adult        | 
Mature Adult | 
Old          | 
Very Old     | 
Ancient      | 
Wyrm         | 
Great Wyrm   |


----------



## Fieari

Err... would you rename "Aweful Presense" "Awesome Presence" instead?  I know California Surfers and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles have almost ruined that word, but "Awesome" does more closely mean "To inspire awe" than "Awful" does.


----------



## Alzrius

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Also, would you quit talking about the second bestiary?  It's ridiculous enough that you released the first bestiary without the rules to use it,




I strongly disagree here. The first _Bestiary_ stood exceptionally well on its own, needing nothing from any of the other IH books to use. The fact that epic monsters can be easily added to any epic game, as opposed to new rules that retool the entire epic/divine system, worked very much in the book's favor, which quite possibly might have had something to do with why it sat at the top of the EN Gamestore's best seller list for several weeks running (and is not just one spot off from there).



> _but trying to get us excited about the second one, when we still have no assurance that your actual divine rules will be any good_




No assurance that they'll be any good? What have the last few threads been about?



> _and to be dead frank, your first published draft of the bestiary was riddled with fairly significant errors_




Yes, but he has me now.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I strongly disagree here. The first _Bestiary_ stood exceptionally well on its own, needing nothing from any of the other IH books to use. The fact that epic monsters can be easily added to any epic game, as opposed to new rules that retool the entire epic/divine system, worked very much in the book's favor, which quite possibly might have had something to do with why *it sat at the top of the EN Gamestore's best seller list for several weeks running (and is not just one spot off from there)*.




Holy crap, seriously?  Never mind, then.    




			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> No assurance that they'll be any good? What have the last few threads been about?




...Advertising?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Snow white isn't significantly better off.




Have I missed a reference?   



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Do you need a material/theme for the cleric/monk dragons?




I have ideas for them (as with the Draco-Bard) but lets say that I am not happy with my current ideas for them, so feel free to throw some out there.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Also, would you quit talking about the second bestiary?




If someone asks me a question, like "Where/when are we going creature 'X'?" and the answer is Bestiary Volume 2, then I am going to answer them honestly. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> It's ridiculous enough that you released the first bestiary without the rules to use it,




The bestiary is self-contained. What other rules do you need?



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> but trying to get us excited about the second one,




Merely answering a question honestly rather than being ignorant about it.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> when we still have no assurance that your actual divine rules will be any good -




I am sure you will all find out in a few weeks.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> and to be dead frank, your first published draft of the bestiary was riddled with fairly significant errors,




Primarily because 1) I was having problems with the spellchecker in Pagemaker and 2) I rewrote half the book after it had already been edited.

I'll not be making those mistakes again.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> and I'm _still_ disconcerted by your decision to not to change seventh sense in to something that can actually be used.




I thought I did change it!? What version are you using?



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Quit waving your e-dick around until there's some substance to it.




Well I think I posted a 90% contents list on the website, so its not like I don't know whats going to be in there.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey paradox42 matey! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Actually, shouldn't the Rune Dragon be the Wizard? Runes are typically associated with magic, and at least some form of scholarship, so it looks like the best fit to me.




Possibly, I was toying with the idea of the Draco-Barbarian being called the Blood Dragon anyway. That might be a better fit.

Draco-Cleric = Shining Dragon...?
Draco-Monk = Karmic Dragon...?



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> The Diamond and Achromatic Dragons sound very cool in their own right, particularly if you equate Achromatic with a Rogue!








			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> And why reinterpret the Force and Prismatic Dragons at all?




Not trying to reinterpret them as such, simply add some coherancy to epic dragons.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> In my own game, I already have an explanation for their existence which has nothing to do with the IH Epic Dragons- I actually refer to the IH "Epic" dragons as "Divine Dragons" in acknowledgement of the fact that they have effective divine ranks (among other things). I'm using the Polychromatics as instigators of a civil war among "true" dragons, and the ELH Epic Dragons (along with three others of my own design) as an invading force also instigated by the Polychromatics, all of this instigation being a means of weakening the world in preparation for a coming demonic invasion.




Cool! I lespecially like the idea of Polychromatic Dragons using Prismatic Dragons.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> I agree about the Transuranic Dragon- that severely rocked! Anabstercorian, did you save that post so it can be reposted and finished?




...and of course there are the new classes from the PHB II to consider.

...and then we can start on the Prestige Class based epic dragons.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  

I've got a couple more questions (as per usual).  My apologies as these don't perfectly dovetail with the dragon commentary:

1.  Did you ever settle definitively on a ranking scheme in Marvel above Class 5000 and if so what are they?

2.  Will the IH provide any guidance for those who wish to create higher dimensions beyond those listed?  Could one, for example, create an Omniverse with 72 dimensions within the framework provided?  Could one create dimensions that are beyond the Omniverse?

Thanks in advance dude.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I've got a couple more questions (as per usual).  My apologies as these don't perfectly dovetail with the dragon commentary:




No apologies necessary dude! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 1.  Did you ever settle definitively on a ranking scheme in Marvel above Class 5000 and if so what are they?




You mean my 10,000, - 500,000 wasn't good enough for you!?   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 2.  Will the IH provide any guidance for those who wish to create higher dimensions beyond those listed?




No, or at least I have no plans for any such guidance. People can flesh out the 8th and 9th  dimensions as they see fit. I'll have some more details in Chronicle, but its not something I am going to dwell on too long.

The 10th dimension is a euphemism for your Dungeon Masters house. I can't fathom why any one would want to create a dimension beyond that.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Could one, for example, create an Omniverse with 72 dimensions within the framework provided?




Lower Dimensions are like Universal Chromosomes, higher dimensions are Universal scaling systems.

But looking at the current dimensions I have in place I don't se how you are going to add anything substantial on top of them? I think you are suggesting 72 dimensions without knowing what it entails. Just adding dimensions for their own sake is, to me anyway, meaningless.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Could one create dimensions that are beyond the Omniverse?




I don't see how.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> You mean my 10,000, - 500,000 wasn't good enough for you!?




No, it was fine.  My conundrum is that you modified those from 10-30-50K in lieu of a debate (which is not a problem) and I wasn't sure I knew where you had sorted ultimately.  Asked another way -- what is the definitive version you've come up with?



> But looking at the current dimensions I have in place I don't se how you are going to add anything substantial on top of them?




I don't have anything in mind "on top" so to speak.  I was thinking potentially in-between.



> I think you are suggesting 72 dimensions without knowing what it entails.




Don't I feel small.  

I don't know what it might entail in design terms to be truthful.  Nevertheless I am curious.



> Just adding dimensions for their own sake is, to me anyway, meaningless.




I wouldn't add anything just to add it.  I was thinking more in terms of folks who might really want to play Time Lords.  

Maybe a better question would be whether there is a means to "level" Time Lords or other residents of Higher Dimensions outside of DM's caveat.

What do we do if we want to play Time Lords long term?

Thanks!


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya historian mate! 

By the way, you might be interested in my latest website update:

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon2.htm



			
				historian said:
			
		

> No, it was fine.  My conundrum is that you modified those from 10-30-50K in lieu of a debate (which is not a problem) and I wasn't sure I knew where you had sorted ultimately.  Asked another way -- what is the definitive version you've come up with?




See the above article. It would be easy to map a set figure onto each tier. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I don't have anything in mind "on top" so to speak.  I was thinking potentially in-between.




So its interdimensional then, rather than a whole other dimension. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Don't I feel small.
> 
> I don't know what it might entail in design terms to be truthful.  Nevertheless I am curious.




Well I am just of the opinion that each lower dimension must mean 'something' distinct, it must add something 'unique'. Whereas the higher dimensions are about scale, and since they already cover up to the Supreme Being/DM I can't see where you go above that, the DM's Mum perhaps? 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I wouldn't add anything just to add it.  I was thinking more in terms of folks who might really want to play Time Lords.




It would be like playing a bunch of Beyonders.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Maybe a better question would be whether there is a means to "level" Time Lords or other residents of Higher Dimensions outside of DM's caveat.




Not sure what you mean here by 'levelling' them?



			
				historian said:
			
		

> What do we do if we want to play Time Lords long term?




Get ready to start creating lots of NPCs and Time Lord level opponents, because I'm only going to cover a handful. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks!




Anytime matey!


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Nice article U_K.
I admit I am not nearly as Comic-savvy as some, but I did find the article rather cool.
It might be a little late to note this, unless version 1.5 of the Epic Bestiary is not the latest version, but there is a minor miscalculation on page 94: Orichalcum Sentinel Base Attack/Grapple bonuses. The base attack listed is a 1:1 HD:Base attack ration, while constructs have a 4:3 ratio. No other errors in the table other than the Sentinel's BAB and Grapple modifier (That I can see).
Oh, and I love the bookmarks. All-Inclusive, and VERY useful. 
Oh, and I have a minor question about a not-so-minor entity in your Bestiary: The Neutronium Golem. It's gravitic aura states "Your maximum hitpoints are reduced by this ammount each round." The wording could be interpreted a couple of ways (not that it makes any difference) . Does this ability reduce your maximum total HP each round (So if you had 100 hp at full, your maximum the next round would be 90)? If so, does it decrease your max HP based on your original maximum, or your current maximum (So if you had 100 hp at full, your maximum the next round would be 90, and the next round it would be 81...)? Or does it take the X% off your current hp based on your maximum (So if you had 100 hp at full, you lose 10 hp each round)?
Also, if it reduces your maximum total hitpoints, how long does the reduction last?
I am sure all this has been asked before.
Oh, do the auras of multiple neutronium golems stack? (So if there were 10 around you, would you just plain die?)
Any info would be appreciated, and I hope finishing up Ascension goes well. (I liked the title apotheosis better, as it is a less commonly used word, but Ascension seems more fitting)


----------



## Fieari

If this were White Wolf, I'd suggest "Apotheosis: The Ascention"


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Nice article U_K.




Thanks mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I admit I am not nearly as Comic-savvy as some, but I did find the article rather cool.








			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> It might be a little late to note this, unless version 1.5 of the Epic Bestiary is not the latest version, but there is a minor miscalculation on page 94: Orichalcum Sentinel Base Attack/Grapple bonuses. The base attack listed is a 1:1 HD:Base attack ration, while constructs have a 4:3 ratio. No other errors in the table other than the Sentinel's BAB and Grapple modifier (That I can see).




Thanks, I'll check it out, I don't have to deliver the final version (for the printers) until the start of June.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, and I love the bookmarks. All-Inclusive, and VERY useful.




Makes all the hard work doing them worthwhile.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, and I have a minor question about a not-so-minor entity in your Bestiary: The Neutronium Golem. It's gravitic aura states "Your maximum hitpoints are reduced by this ammount each round." The wording could be interpreted a couple of ways (not that it makes any difference) . Does this ability reduce your maximum total HP each round (So if you had 100 hp at full, your maximum the next round would be 90)? If so, does it decrease your max HP based on your original maximum, or your current maximum (So if you had 100 hp at full, your maximum the next round would be 90, and the next round it would be 81...)? Or does it take the X% off your current hp based on your maximum (So if you had 100 hp at full, you lose 10 hp each round)?




You lose 10% of your maximum total full health starting hit points each round. Therefore you have 10 rounds (or less) before you die.

If you have 99 current hp (but 1000 at full health) you would die in the first round.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also, if it reduces your maximum total hitpoints, how long does the reduction last?
> I am sure all this has been asked before.




Its hit point damage, though you could fast heal/regenerate/heal it. It lasts until healed.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, do the auras of multiple neutronium golems stack? (So if there were 10 around you, would you just plain die?)




No. Not completely anyway.

Multiple Neutronium Golems might increase the effect by 50% of the previous increase.

15%, 17.5%, 18.75%, 19.375% (for 5 overlapping effects).

There must be a way of working this out accurately, the above was just off the top of my head, but they definately don't stack completely.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Any info would be appreciated, and I hope finishing up Ascension goes well. (I liked the title apotheosis better, as it is a less commonly used word, but Ascension seems more fitting)




I agree.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Thanks for the info U_K, that guideline for Neutronium Golems sounds balenced (Evil DM Stratagy 834: Attack PCs with a swarm of 22 Neutronium Golems for optimal effect) since it tapers out at 20% at 22 Golems, and if for some reason you need that many to destroy someone, it may not be possible to kill them at all.
Here's a sick thought - A Neutronium Leviathan. 4000 HD, and unless you have greatcleave, and the ability to One-shot them, its all over. 
Oh, one other thing I noticed just now - In the bestiary, on page 4 - Monsters by CR and ECL, you list ECLs for all the monsters yet many of the monster entries, most notably the non-humanoid ones and the golems, bear no Level adjustment modifiers in their stat-blocks. What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard? Since the numbers are all there, will there be a level adjustment listing for these monsters in the print version?
Oh, and will the print version be hard-backed or paper backed?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Well I am just of the opinion that each lower dimension must mean 'something' distinct, it must add something 'unique'. Whereas the higher dimensions are about scale, and since they already cover up to the Supreme Being/DM I can't see where you go above that, the DM's Mum perhaps?




Didn't you once propose 80 different ranks or levels of Supernals?  

Of course having the further ranks wouldn't necessitate adding dimensions but that is one means of contributing to each rank's distinctness.  In fact, you had mentioned the possibility of having 72 at one point.  

And, of course, by definition the "Supreme Being" is as high as you can go.  

Unless you're counting the Akashic Records.  



> So its interdimensional then, rather than a whole other dimension.




Potentially though I wouldn't confuse it with Intradimensional.  



> By the way, you might be interested in my latest website update:




Very interesting and I'm gald you put it out there.  I think your ideas regarding low versus high physical factor really bring the issues into focus.

Excellent all the way around, you've done a fantastic job as a cosmic zoologist!  

I find myself agreeing with others that there is more evidence to suggest HOU Thanos wasn't in fact a bona fide Supreme Being than there is to suggest that he was.  My feelings on the topic are partly why I was asking questions relating to whether there might be something "in between" LT and the Supreme Being.

Nevertheless I believe he may be the best proxy out there (other than Kirby or the retconned "Brothers"). 

I'll send more specific comments your way as they occur to me.

Thanks dude.


----------



## Anabstercorian

_ What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?_

I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

> I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.




I prefer the idea of an _awakened_ NG ranger who TWFs with a pair of NGs.

Or better yet, an NG hulking hurler of NGs...

Or an NG ninja using netronium-golem-chucks...  

I'd better stop, huh?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> _ What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard?_
> 
> I don't know whether this is a thing of beauty or evil.




I am sooooo quoting this.


----------



## Kavon

Hey U_K 

Quick question here, about the newer version of the Bestiary (1.5)

I think I still have the file for the 1.0 one (I was one of the ones who purchased the non-illustrated one, way back), but when I click on the link in the mail you sent (for the download at the EN-World store), it just says 'download complete' and that's that - I can't update the file to 1.5 :S

Any idea what I can do?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info U_K, that guideline for Neutronium Golems sounds balenced (Evil DM Stratagy 834: Attack PCs with a swarm of 22 Neutronium Golems for optimal effect) since it tapers out at 20% at 22 Golems, and if for some reason you need that many to destroy someone, it may not be possible to kill them at all.




Glad I could help.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Here's a sick thought - A Neutronium Leviathan. 4000 HD,




Well a Neutronium Leviathan would have 32,000 Hit Dice.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> and unless you have greatcleave, and the ability to One-shot them, its all over.




How so?



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, one other thing I noticed just now - In the bestiary, on page 4 - Monsters by CR and ECL, you list ECLs for all the monsters yet many of the monster entries, most notably the non-humanoid ones and the golems, bear no Level adjustment modifiers in their stat-blocks. What if someone wanted to play an Awakened Neutronium Golem Wizard? Since the numbers are all there, will there be a level adjustment listing for these monsters in the print version?




Funny you mention it I actually did these up a few days ago for the Print version. 

I would post them on the website at some juncture, however, there have been quite a few changes (notably to magic item wielding monsters) for the print version, so I'd actually be posting the wrong CR/ECLs. I'll need to sort through that.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, and will the print version be hard-backed or paper backed?




As far as I have been told, the Bestiary (96 pages) is sort of in between. Its stockier stuff than say, Sword & Fist, but not quite what you get on the likes of the Players Handbook.

I think Ascension (160 pages) is fully hard backed though.

When I have more info on this I will let everyone know.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hey historian dude! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Didn't you once propose 80 different ranks or levels of Supernals?




72. The idea was that the Supreme Being was a 72-dimensional being (or 72 extra dimensions that is).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Of course having the further ranks wouldn't necessitate adding dimensions but that is one means of contributing to each rank's distinctness.  In fact, you had mentioned the possibility of having 72 at one point.




You could still have it, but I only explain up to 10.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> And, of course, by definition the "Supreme Being" is as high as you can go.
> 
> Unless you're counting the Akashic Records.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Potentially though I wouldn't confuse it with Intradimensional.




I think Dimensional, in terms of scaling can be confused with multiversal.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Very interesting and I'm gald you put it out there.  I think your ideas regarding low versus high physical factor really bring the issues into focus.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Excellent all the way around, you've done a fantastic job as a cosmic zoologist!




I think comics are a great source of inspiration for epic/immortal campaigns.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I find myself agreeing with others that there is more evidence to suggest HOU Thanos wasn't in fact a bona fide Supreme Being than there is to suggest that he was.  My feelings on the topic are partly why I was asking questions relating to whether there might be something "in between" LT and the Supreme Being.




I think people were complaining about my use of the term Omniverse in the article, they would probably be more comfortable with Multiverse.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Nevertheless I believe he may be the best proxy out there (other than Kirby or the retconned "Brothers").




I think he was certainly intended to be GOD or at least wield the power of GOD. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'll send more specific comments your way as they occur to me.




Of that I have no doubt! I appreciate the interest. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks dude.




Anytime matey!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey U_K




Hiya Kavon mate! 



			
				Kavon said:
			
		

> Quick question here, about the newer version of the Bestiary (1.5)
> 
> I think I still have the file for the 1.0 one (I was one of the ones who purchased the non-illustrated one, way back), but when I click on the link in the mail you sent (for the download at the EN-World store), it just says 'download complete' and that's that - I can't update the file to 1.5 :S
> 
> Any idea what I can do?




Dude - you should have emailed me about this months ago - I feel terrible now.   

Email me and I will sort you out personally.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> 72. The idea was that the Supreme Being was a 72-dimensional being (or 72 extra dimensions that is).




Dog's bollocks!


> I think comics are a great source of inspiration for epic/immortal campaigns.




No doubt about it.



> I think he was certainly intended to be GOD or at least wield the power of GOD.




I think you're right.  Unfortunately, Starlin & Co. didn't have the benefit of consulting with the IH before running the series.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well a Neutronium Leviathan would have 32,000 Hit Dice.




Unless there is something big I missed, the Leviathan has 16x the golems HD, and the golem has 250 listed. 4000 seems right, though maybe CR 32000 might be acurate 

As for why you would need to one shot it - Even if the Leviathan's Gravitic aura is only as powerful as the Golems in terms of HP reduction, the sheer HP and Its Heat Aura (Which probobly would scale) would be the killing factor in this beast. It would take so long to kill that the gravity, X-Ray Pulse, and fire damage would chew right through someone who had not specifically prepared for such an encounter. With the Nerfing of Heal in 3.5, it becomes very difficult to restore HP fast enough, even if you had a hundred 20th level clerics (Who somehow were not killed) they probobly couldnt even blunt the damage this thing would deal each round, before melee is even considered (Though melee seems to be the Golems only weakness, at CR 9000+ it only has a melee bonus in the mid hundreds, while the orchalcum Leviathan, a creature of 1/10th it's CR has thrice the bonus to hit). 
Granted this is just my take on Neutronium Golem/Leviathan battle strategy - A Party of 4 fully equiped Immortals, using U_K's rules, would probobly have abilities similar in nature that give them an advantage. Heck, an Immortal with an ability similar to the Gravitic Aura ability to drain HP % would totally trash this thing


----------



## Anabstercorian

Keep in mind that we'll probably see the re-introduction of high-end healing options in the Grimoire, options such as:
 - _Contingent_ effects, which negate incoming damage and negative status ailments (such as, say, death) as it arrives
 - Proportional healing (restoring X% of your maximum hit points, for which Heal could have been considered 100%)
 - Regenerative healing (The effect takes place once every X rounds for Y rounds)
 - Hardened healing (Not only removes a status effect but applies an immunity)
 - 'Breathing room' effects (which ensure that, regardless of what damage you take or negative status effects are applied, they don't actually take effect for X rounds).


----------



## Fieari

Well, at a CR 32,000, it looks like the leviathan still wouldn't be able to seriously threaten A'tuin... although, it could of course end all life on the discworld.


----------



## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya Kavon mate!



Hey again, U_K 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Dude - you should have emailed me about this months ago - I feel terrible now.



Don't worry about it too much - got very preoccupied with other things (was going to ask before, but never got around to it).



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Email me and I will sort you out personally.



Alright, I'll get right to it


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Unless there is something big I missed, the Leviathan has 16x the golems HD, and the golem has 250 listed. 4000 seems right, though maybe CR 32000 might be acurate




My heads away with it - I forgot I reduced the Golem's HD to 250 from 2000. DOH!   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> As for why you would need to one shot it - Even if the Leviathan's Gravitic aura is only as powerful as the Golems in terms of HP reduction, the sheer HP and Its Heat Aura (Which probobly would scale) would be the killing factor in this beast. It would take so long to kill that the gravity, X-Ray Pulse, and fire damage would chew right through someone who had not specifically prepared for such an encounter. With the Nerfing of Heal in 3.5, it becomes very difficult to restore HP fast enough, even if you had a hundred 20th level clerics (Who somehow were not killed) they probobly couldnt even blunt the damage this thing would deal each round, before melee is even considered (Though melee seems to be the Golems only weakness, at CR 9000+ it only has a melee bonus in the mid hundreds, while the orchalcum Leviathan, a creature of 1/10th it's CR has thrice the bonus to hit).
> 
> Granted this is just my take on Neutronium Golem/Leviathan battle strategy - A Party of 4 fully equiped Immortals, using U_K's rules, would probobly have abilities similar in nature that give them an advantage. Heck, an Immortal with an ability similar to the Gravitic Aura ability to drain HP % would totally trash this thing




Even I won't know for another week or two what characters who could fight a Neutronium Golem will really look like. I'm still not convinced with its Challenge Rating. But that sort of thing gets really tricky when you start using Transcendental+ powers.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that we'll probably see the re-introduction of high-end healing options in the Grimoire, options such as:
> - _Contingent_ effects, which negate incoming damage and negative status ailments (such as, say, death) as it arrives
> - Proportional healing (restoring X% of your maximum hit points, for which Heal could have been considered 100%)
> - Regenerative healing (The effect takes place once every X rounds for Y rounds)
> - Hardened healing (Not only removes a status effect but applies an immunity)
> - 'Breathing room' effects (which ensure that, regardless of what damage you take or negative status effects are applied, they don't actually take effect for X rounds).




With Dimensional Magic its easy to add these sort of 'spell templates'. 

If I can manipulate time how can I change this spell, if I can control probability how can I modify that effect, etc.


----------



## Fieari

I'm also curious as to what sort of character/god could take out a Star Turtle... since that seems to be the most physically powerful creature statted out so far aside from Pun-Pun.

It's not as if Atuin is an intellegent force or really even a god... he/she is just a turtle with a world on it's back.  But thwarting world-destroying plots is a mainstay of epic fiction... how high do you have to get before Atuin is threatened?  I mean, if Time Lords can't handle it...

EDIT: Just had another thought/question.  With regards to the Artifact Rules, and Exotic Materials, how do they go together?  I mean, say you're a medium fighter and have a natural strength of 50.  Can you make your artifact sword partially oricalcum?  Would doing so decrease the enhancement bonus you could stick on it?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Fieari said:
			
		

> EDIT: Just had another thought/question.  With regards to the Artifact Rules, and Exotic Materials, how do they go together?  I mean, say you're a medium fighter and have a natural strength of 50.  Can you make your artifact sword partially oricalcum?  Would doing so decrease the enhancement bonus you could stick on it?




There are rules for that in the Bestiary -- p. 88 on my copy.  You'll want 0.003% orichalcum with that strength.


----------



## Fieari

Nono... I know that much.  Normally, oricalcum weapons and armor simply increase the PRICE of the item.  How does that mesh with U_K's artifact system, which is based almost purely on bonuses, not price...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm also curious as to what sort of character/god could take out a Star Turtle... since that seems to be the most physically powerful creature statted out so far aside from Pun-Pun.
> 
> It's not as if Atuin is an intellegent force or really even a god... he/she is just a turtle with a world on it's back.  But thwarting world-destroying plots is a mainstay of epic fiction... how high do you have to get before Atuin is threatened?  I mean, if Time Lords can't handle it...




The problem is, I think the Time Lords could handle it...easily.

But Challenge Ratings start to go bonkers after a while, and I don't think I have, as yet, uncovered the secret of the infinite challenge rating.

Either mad monsters (like A'tuin) need their CR reduced, or (more likely), beings with Transcendental or better powers need their CR multiplied.

At this juncture I'm thinking that a Transcendental power will double CR (with 2 meaning x4, 3 meaning x8 etc.), while Omnific powers will increase CR by an order of magnitude.

But it all gets a bit tricky when you stray much beyond CR 200+. D20 is not the best system for mucking about with planet sized monsters, despite my best efforts.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> EDIT: Just had another thought/question.  With regards to the Artifact Rules, and Exotic Materials, how do they go together?  I mean, say you're a medium fighter and have a natural strength of 50.  Can you make your artifact sword partially oricalcum?  Would doing so decrease the enhancement bonus you could stick on it?




Funnily enough I actually based the orichalcum costs on a bonus...now all I need to do is reverse engineer it because I have forgotten what the bonus is. It may be +3/size category...although thats off the top of my head.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> At this juncture I'm thinking that a Transcendental power will double CR (with 2 meaning x4, 3 meaning x8 etc.), while Omnific powers will increase CR by an order of magnitude.




 

That's awesome!

Would Transcendental and Omnific Artifacts do even more for CR?


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That's awesome!




Complicated is the word I would use myself.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Would Transcendental and Omnific Artifacts do even more for CR?




Well it would all have to be accounted for. Fortunately, you can't get Transcendental artifacts until ECL 200, and you need to be Sidereal to start getting Transcendental abilities.

Which means that even ECL 198 Greater Power Odin is safe.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

I'll be working out the Ascension illustrations over the next few days, so I am having to settle on a final 13 deities for the template examples. I have wanted to keep it to no more than one deity per Pantheon and have a good spread of classes and alignments. At the moment I have:

Disciple = Morgan Le Fay (undecided)
Prophet = Yanauluha (undecided because I think he should probably be of higher rank)
Hero-deity = Achilles
Quasi-deity = Vainamoinen

Demi-deity = No Cha
Lesser Deity = Hecate
Intermediate Deity = Horus (I want one deity that appeared in D&Dg just to show peopl ethe difference).
Greater Deity = Dagda

Elder One = Surtur
Old One = Algol (any eventual resemblence to Azathoth is purely coincidental)
First One = Metatron

Time Lord = 
High Lord =  

Some people may remember I suggested Lucifer for the Intermediate slot at one stage, but I think I will add him to the Bestiary Volume 3 instead. I also wanted to do Gaea as the Old One, but she should definately be an Elder Goddess and no one is going to trump my wanting to do Surtur. 

What do the rest of you think?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!



> Disciple = Morgan Le Fay (undecided)
> Prophet = Yanauluha (undecided because I think he should probably be of higher rank)
> Hero-deity = Achilles
> Quasi-deity = Vainamoinen
> 
> Demi-deity = No Cha
> Lesser Deity = Hecate
> Intermediate Deity = Horus (I want one deity that appeared in D&Dg just to show peopl ethe difference).
> Greater Deity = Dagda
> 
> Elder One = Surtur
> Old One = Algol (any eventual resemblence to Azathoth is purely coincidental)
> First One = Metatron




Bitchin.'

Surtur beats Gaea any day.  Most people I'm suspecting will be playing Good/Neutral parties so you would think there would be a more acute need for Surtur stats.



> Time Lord =
> High Lord =




Rough CR estimates?

I really, really can't wait to see Ascension.


----------



## lade

I'm trying to design a  series of core classrd and later prestige class for people who eventually want to end up with silver surfer( herald) levels of powers or at the upper end thanos level capabilities.

The core class  I've decided has to be a monk class to get the characters to eventually through meditation and martial training to attune themeselves to the natural energy flows of the celestial bodies i.e solar system , planet and attain outsider status ( a must as mortal shells can't bring themselves to hold, channel or manipulate the energies to be brought to bear as they channel) , I want all class abilities to be extraordinary abilities as through will, training and intent they refine the energies they intend to channel and use the refined energy to define the type of capabilities that they will get.

Most will be a series of 100 level progression broken into 20, 15, 10 level prestige classes and core classes , as the NPC's cross one threshold they can decide to pick a path they're progression grants them i.e For example an outsider decides to bond with a star merging his essence with that of the star , developing warlock abilities  such as as solar blasts only extarordinary and incantation like capabilties like nova bursts , lightspeed flight e.t.c , as he progrsses further c ompleting the class he decides to progress further learning to tap multiple stars for energy due to his  affiliation with them , the trade of being he loses more mortality i.e flesh slowly becomes energy e.t.c. from there he decides to develop greater control over the energies he channels improving his manipulations of them and getting new abilites from them, he final apoetheosis is to become one with the cosmic force they represent i.e heat, light developing themselves as a primal conduit tio the elementalk plane of fire becoming practically elemental only much more , by hundredth level developing the power to drain stars completely of energy , manipulate solar, heat ,fire, atomic energies and photons in all their glory but this class requires dedication and commitment to reach the upper echelons of power ususally requiring centuries to accomplish, sometimes millenia.Also I'm considering developing fighter classes that utilize extraordinary abilities to either craft or imbue mundane weapons with vast cosmic power ,trransfroming them from simple implements to weapons of great powers by altering them on a molecular level , I'm think mystical and modern setting , mystical enough to understand the cosmic paradigms involved and modern enough that science and technology play an important role in the developement of power. i.e genetic e.t.c. What are your thoughts on my idea?


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Bitchin.'




Watch that potty mouth son. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Surtur beats Gaea any day.  Most people I'm suspecting will be playing Good/Neutral parties so you would think there would be a more acute need for Surtur stats.




Thats what I thought, but I want a good spread of examples, not just a Rogues Gallery.  



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Rough CR estimates?




Time Lord...applying the previously mentioned modifiers...CR in the thousands probably.

High Lord...I don't even want to contemplate it until I have the stats all finished.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I really, really can't wait to see Ascension.




At the end of May I'll probably be asking for a small number of playtesters/early adopters.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there lade! 

...and welcome to the boards. 



			
				lade said:
			
		

> I'm trying to design a  series of core classrd and later prestige class for people who eventually want to end up with silver surfer( herald) levels of powers or at the upper end thanos level capabilities.




Cool!

I have Silver Surfer on my website, although I probably need to rework part of that Galactus article.

Also of note is that the Prophet divinity template in the Immortals Handbook: Ascension is subtitled (Herald of...). 



			
				lade said:
			
		

> The core class  I've decided has to be a monk class to get the characters to eventually through meditation and martial training to attune themeselves to the natural energy flows of the celestial bodies i.e solar system , planet and attain outsider status ( a must as mortal shells can't bring themselves to hold, channel or manipulate the energies to be brought to bear as they channel) , I want all class abilities to be extraordinary abilities as through will, training and intent they refine the energies they intend to channel and use the refined energy to define the type of capabilities that they will get.




Sounds a bit DragonballZ...I like it. 



			
				lade said:
			
		

> Most will be a series of 100 level progression broken into 20, 15, 10 level prestige classes and core classes , as the NPC's cross one threshold they can decide to pick a path they're progression grants them i.e For example an outsider decides to bond with a star merging his essence with that of the star , developing warlock abilities  such as as solar blasts only extarordinary and incantation like capabilties like nova bursts , lightspeed flight e.t.c , as he progrsses further c ompleting the class he decides to progress further learning to tap multiple stars for energy due to his  affiliation with them , the trade of being he loses more mortality i.e flesh slowly becomes energy e.t.c. from there he decides to develop greater control over the energies he channels improving his manipulations of them and getting new abilites from them, he final apoetheosis is to become one with the cosmic force they represent i.e heat, light developing themselves as a primal conduit tio the elementalk plane of fire becoming practically elemental only much more , by hundredth level developing the power to drain stars completely of energy , manipulate solar, heat ,fire, atomic energies and photons in all their glory but this class requires dedication and commitment to reach the upper echelons of power ususally requiring centuries to accomplish, sometimes millenia.Also I'm considering developing fighter classes that utilize extraordinary abilities to either craft or imbue mundane weapons with vast cosmic power ,trransfroming them from simple implements to weapons of great powers by altering them on a molecular level , I'm think mystical and modern setting , mystical enough to understand the cosmic paradigms involved and modern enough that science and technology play an important role in the developement of power. i.e genetic e.t.c. What are your thoughts on my idea?




Well I hate to blow my own trumpet (however, this is my thread and in here I can do what I like*) but basically I already cover this sort of thing in the Immortals Handbook.

* 

I mean you are talking power like Silver Surfer scaling up to Thanos levels - The divinity templates cover that.

You are talking about bonding with a star, solar powers and so forth - The portfolio templates take care of that (Sun God etc.).

Imbueing mundane weapons with cosmic power - Artifacts, nuff said.

Mixing Gods with technology - I have a whole section on that in the Chronicle with the whole D20 Modern/Future weapon damages properly revised.

So obviously I am going to think its a great idea - because everything you mention above I have covered. 

The only deviation would seem to be how 'Monk orientated' you want everything to be. Naturally thats not the focus of how I outline immortality. But you could simply give everyone Monk levels and go from there. I plan to have expanded Core Classes in there somewhere (probably Chronicle), and I have lots of epic/divine monk feats/abilities in Ascension so you would have lots of options to choose from.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Watch that potty mouth son.




 



> Thats what I thought, but I want a good spread of examples, not just a Rogues Gallery.




Good idea since the main thrust of the work is to allow people to actually play Deities.



> Time Lord...applying the previously mentioned modifiers...CR in the thousands probably.




Nice.  



> High Lord...I don't even want to contemplate it until I have the stats all finished.




It?

 

Incidentally I was working a bit of math trying to proxy one possible CR for HOU Thanos.  By rough estimate I would guess that the HOU would give one virtually all of the Transcendental and Omnific abilities.  Using a x2 multiplier for Transcendental abilities and a x10 multiplier for Omnific, and assuming 50 Transcendental and 25 Omnific, I came up with a rough estimate of 225E40 CR (200 * multipliers).

Wild stuff I tell you.


----------



## Fieari

Tangent: I've got the bug of wanting to stat out a really high CR creature again, and after looking at someone else's (small thinking) take on Death, I want to give the fellow a try.  I'm thinking that, for starters, he could probably make use of the Amidah template, but beyond that I'm not sure, and thought I'd ask you guys.  A simple awakened skeleton base, or should he be a lich instead?  Lich True Necromancer?  What CR should I be gunning for...


----------



## Saerynishar

Well, you sure as hell want him to have more than ninety hit points, but attaching the amidah template will take care of that. I'm not actually sure that amidah is appropriate, but I suppose that depends on exactly what incarnation of death you're intending to stat out. 

A mid epic death would probably be a paragon dread wraith with the sunlight vulnerability removed or somehow compensated for. I like the idea of a wraith representing death, because the wraith has always been to me the quintessential malevolent and ghostly undead. 

High epic/ cosmic death might be an amidah dread wraith, maybe with either another template or a couple of class levels. Not 100% sure what levels.


----------



## historian

> Tangent: I've got the bug of wanting to stat out a really high CR creature again, and after looking at someone else's (small thinking) take on Death, I want to give the fellow a try. I'm thinking that, for starters, he could probably make use of the Amidah template, but beyond that I'm not sure, and thought I'd ask you guys. A simple awakened skeleton base, or should he be a lich instead? Lich True Necromancer? What CR should I be gunning for...




Fieari, my take on this is largely influenced by the Comic Books and U_K's sidereal classification.  I believe she (he) is probably a First One.  As such, I would think the only template you would need would be the First One template.

If I were statting Death I would aim for ECL in the range of 480 to 560 with a corresponding CR of 320 to 375 (WoTC) but I could see how reasonable minds could differ.

If you go with Death as a First One you'd have to make some determination as to what Dimension she's linked with.  I think Entropy and Fate would be the most likely with Spirit being another possibility.  Personally, I would go with Fate.

I would probably classify Death as an Outsider as opposed to Undead simply because I don't think the Undead vulnerabilities dovetail with a being of Death's majesty.  I also believe that it's implicit in the Epic Bestiary that Sin likely created Undead which would subordinate Death to Sin which is inappropriate.  It'll be neat to see how U_K handles this stuff.

You could do a subordinate Death-type, i.e. the Angel of Death or whatnot.  I would guess such a being would be an Intermediate or Greater Deity with the Outsider Type.


----------



## paradox42

I agree with Historian on Death's type, and a Cosmic deity would seem to be appropriate for the entity. However, if you do really want undead, the most obvious template to me is one U_K did himself in the Bestiary- forget Wraiths or Ghosts or other lesser creatures. Go for the throat with an Akalich, and add Amidah if you're really feeling mean. Look at what the Akalich has- incorporeality, kills even Immortal souls, able to smash pretty much any non-Epic or low-Epic creature without a second thought, and so on. The one disadvantage is that by the rules for what you can apply the template to, this means Death must be a spellcaster, but who says you can't ignore those rules for this one special critter?


----------



## Fieari

Hm.  I think I'll leave Death himself to U_K for the moment, lacking First One rules, and just go for a nice Angel of Death, commonly mistaken for Death himself.  This death would be suitable for GMs wanting to use, say, a Deck of Many Things in a high-epic campaign, where I'd imagine such a deck wouldn't actually be as game breaking as in a sub-epic game.  For the true Death, I agree with Fate being a possible dimension for him, although Byss has already been suggested for Death's home.  Remember, Sandalphon might be conspiring with Ouroborus to seperate Byss from the rest of the diminsions and ending all death?

In terms of the Angel though, Intermediate Deity by HD sounds like a fair choice to me.  You might stave him off with the head of a pantheon, or a concentrated effort of many Intermediate (given that he's an Amidah).  I'll aim for about 75 HD.

I do like the idea of a Dread Wraith... but... on the other hand, saying "Angel of Death" makes me now think to fall one of U_K's angels first... an advanced or otherwise templated or classed Malakim looks the bill.  And I do want to make it Amidah... well, we'll see how it looks in a bit.

EDIT: Wait, you're right... Akalich... hm.  An Akalich Malakim?  I could forget Amidah at that point...


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

I think U_K has death covered... In the Epic Bestiary Volume 2... You could use Thanatos  though While technically one of the four horsemen, as more of a symbol of destruction rather than death, he could work fine. 
As much as it would be fun to stat a high CR creature right now, it might be best to just jot down an overview of it's power range right now, because once Ascension comes out, we will have 400+ powers to give creatures. I think thats the best part of The Handbook itself - Even if you arn't running an epic game, the powers make for good monster abilities (Even for non-epic monsters. if scaled properly), and the artifact rules (Artifacts that emulate a divine salient ability would certainly feel cool, even if it is only slightly better than Finger of Death 5/Day) will let one build an interesting campain setting.
As for the Angel of Death, If you use the BoED, theres an assassin-type class in there that can kill with a touch. Throw ten levels of that, and say 10 levels of rogue on a Solar, and you have quite a lethal Angel of Death (Oh, and give back solars their +5 Dancing Vorpal Greatswords, they have had them from at least 2nd ed, and I think it was lame they were removed in 3.5)


----------



## Fieari

Eh, crunching the numbers is just fun.  And the current Death statted out on the wiki is just pitiable.  It's something to do on my day off.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Howdy! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> It?




Is Challenge Rating a he or she, I thought it was an it.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Incidentally I was working a bit of math trying to proxy one possible CR for HOU Thanos.  By rough estimate I would guess that the HOU would give one virtually all of the Transcendental and Omnific abilities.  Using a x2 multiplier for Transcendental abilities and a x10 multiplier for Omnific, and assuming 50 Transcendental and 25 Omnific, I came up with a rough estimate of 225E40 CR (200 * multipliers).
> 
> Wild stuff I tell you.




Just as long as I don't have to do the stat block.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Tangent: I've got the bug of wanting to stat out a really high CR creature again, and after looking at someone else's (small thinking) take on Death, I want to give the fellow a try.  I'm thinking that, for starters, he could probably make use of the Amidah template, but beyond that I'm not sure, and thought I'd ask you guys.  A simple awakened skeleton base, or should he be a lich instead?  Lich True Necromancer?  What CR should I be gunning for...




The design question you want to ask is "Do I have a target CR?" *or* "What am I basing this monster idea on?".

You don't seem to have decided on either. 'Death' is about as ambiguous as you can get.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Fieari, my take on this is largely influenced by the Comic Books and U_K's sidereal classification.  I believe she (he) is probably a First One.  As such, I would think the only template you would need would be the First One template.




Thats Entropy, not necessarily death. Death is the end of life, but the concept assumes life in the first place, whereas Entropy is 'born' out of nothingness. So as such I think 'Death' would be a mortal concept and hence I have my Grim Reaper as a 'mere' Greater Deity.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> If I were statting Death I would aim for ECL in the range of 480 to 560 with a corresponding CR of 320 to 375 (WoTC) but I could see how reasonable minds could differ.
> 
> If you go with Death as a First One you'd have to make some determination as to what Dimension she's linked with.  I think Entropy and Fate would be the most likely with Spirit being another possibility.  Personally, I would go with Fate.




The First Ones (for all intents and purposes) 'are' their dimensions.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I would probably classify Death as an Outsider as opposed to Undead simply because I don't think the Undead vulnerabilities dovetail with a being of Death's majesty.  I also believe that it's implicit in the Epic Bestiary that Sin likely created Undead which would subordinate Death to Sin which is inappropriate.  It'll be neat to see how U_K handles this stuff.




Well to be honest I have pretty much explained this in the Bestiary.

Thanatos/Grim Reaper (Greater Deity) is Death.

Sin/Satan (First One) is Matter (and by association Evil).

Tamas (First One) is Entropy

Aditi/Infinity (First One) is Fate/Chance/Probability.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You could do a subordinate Death-type, i.e. the Angel of Death or whatnot.  I would guess such a being would be an Intermediate or Greater Deity with the Outsider Type.




You could always have Avatars and Aspects of Thanatos/Death. Aspects could be the things you fight when you draw the Death card in a Deck of Many Things etc.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Death in my campaign is similar to what U_K would call an Elder One.  Powerwise, he/she/it is between Elder Ones and Old Ones; philosophically, she/he/it is a Greater God.

From U_K's Superhero Relativity:


> *NB.* A few of the approximate masses attributed to celestial bodies are out by a few orders of magnitudes (The Sun is 1E30 Tons, Galaxy should be 1E41 Tons for instance, Super-cluster could be 1E52, Universe is probably 1E63+). Although obviously these things do vary by orders of magnitude, so, for the sake of maintaining balance I kept it all increasing at the same rate (from Class 100 onwards at least).




Oddly, I was just working on something similar (not for D&D), so I actually have a good table here.  1e41 tons is hefty for a galaxy; I have 3e39 for the Milky Way.  1e52 is just out of the question for a supercluster; the 1e47 you have is closer, although I have yet smaller (2e43) for Virgo.  Likewise, the observable universe is probably around 1e50 tons.

Since I'm "not a fan" of superheros and modern physics in my D&D, I'm not annoyed by this being off by a few orders of magnitude.  Still, I thought I'd point it out.  Here's the high end of the mass table I constructed (in metric tons):
large stellar black hole	2E+28
supergiant (Betelgeuse)	4E+28
hypergiant (LBV 1806-20)	3E+29
supermassive black hole	2E+33
dwarf galaxy (Canis Major)	1E+37
galaxy (Milky Way)	3E+39
Virgo Supercluster	2E+43
observable universe	3E+49

(I was using this to put the Schwarzschild radius and Hawking radiation in perspective, if you're curious.)


I'll see if I can do some number crunching on the multiplier for Transcendental and beyond abilities.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K, heres a question you might be able to answer - Are Divine, Cosmic, Transendental, and Omnific powers their own classification of Power, or do they still fall into the Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural ability fields? Or do you have a class all their own for them, like in Deities and Demi Gods (3e) where they make the Salient abilities their own catagory, or do you group them by ranking (Ex - Transendental Powers might be listed as "Planet Erasing Beam (Tr):" or "Cosmic Weapon Focus (Cs):" or my favorite "Summon Great, Great, Great Wyrm Nexus Dragon (Om):" ), or are they all grouped into one catagory.

Because as written, though it may not have been WoTC's intention, each classification has rules-weaknesses, such as Ex abilities, while safe from Anti-Magic, are subject to some obscure class features and spells, such as a line of spells from serpent kingdoms (3.5 FR supplement). 
If you have the book, you know what I am talking about, but If not, just imagine a wizard walking up to Algol (Somehow) and casting a spell, and stealing Algol's mind-warping powers (or whatever powers he might have) due to its ability classification. Oh no, poor wizard loses one whole level, but how much does his ECL go up by? Another class feature I saw (dont remember what class got it off hand) let the character duplicate any Ex ability he has ever seen. The Neutronium Golem's X-Ray Pulse is Ex, isnt it? With an epic Scrying spell...
Of course there are so many feats and classes and spells in 3E that errata and Rule - 0 need to be applied on a case by case basis. ("No mister wizard, Algol foresaw your casting of the spell, and redirected it. You stole his insanity, and are now a babbleing mess. Algol, now completely sane, goes an conquers the universe." ) 
I just wanted to point this out incase something obvious has been missed, and due to some issue like the ones listed above, your system inadvertently becomes a muchkin-fest (which while fun, defeats the point).


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K
Heh, afterthought - Does the Nexus Dragon's Breath ignore Dimentional Anchor/Lock? Seems like the only way to survive.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  




> Is Challenge Rating a he or she, I thought it was an it.




My bad.



> Thats Entropy, not necessarily death. Death is the end of life, but the concept assumes life in the first place, whereas Entropy is 'born' out of nothingness. So as such I think 'Death' would be a mortal concept and hence I have my Grim Reaper as a 'mere' Greater Deity.




I understand the difference between Entropy and Death.

However, as I qualified, I have also been heavily influenced by Comic mythology.  

I love your Cosmos and that will be my official version;

nevertheless, Thanos must have loved someone.  



> The First Ones (for all intents and purposes) 'are' their dimensions.




I know . . . semantics.



> Well to be honest I have pretty much explained this in the Bestiary.




Maybe, but Fieari's question nevertheless stimulated debate.

This is fandom and you're just going to have to get used to it.  



> Just as long as I don't have to do the stat block.




I hope it's worth it?  

Bring on Ascension!


----------



## Fieari

Well, I've had my fun.  How about an Akalich Fallen Malakim Wizard 8/Cleric 8/True Necromancer 15?  75 HD of devestating horror, almost impossible to kill except by the most powerful holy beings, and bundled with 4 artifacts using the suggested rules U_K posted earlier.

The Angel of Death


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

historian said:
			
		

> Incidentally I was working a bit of math trying to proxy one possible CR for HOU Thanos.



Who's Thanos, and what is HOU?


> By rough estimate I would guess that the HOU would give one virtually all of the Transcendental and Omnific abilities.  Using a x2 multiplier for Transcendental abilities and a x10 multiplier for Omnific, and assuming 50 Transcendental and 25 Omnific, I came up with a rough estimate of 225E40 CR (200 * multipliers).



Yikes!


----------



## historian

Hey Servitor:



> Who's Thanos, and what is HOU?




Thanos is a Marvel Comics persona.  You can find his profile here:

http://www.marveldirectory.com/individuals/t/thanos.htm 

The HOU is an acronym for the Heart of the Universe, an artifact that would if it could be "controlled" would make the wielder something along the lines of the Supreme Being (arguably).

I pulled the following description from Marvel's official website:

"Following these events, there appeared the powerful Ankhenaten, an ancient Egyptian pharaoh who sought out the mystical object known as the Heart of the Universe, from which all energy physical and metaphysical emanates, and thereby gained infinite power. Several heroes tried to stop Ankhenaten’s rampage, and the conflict gathered Thanos, Galactus, and other cosmic beings as well. Through a mixture of guile and power, Thanos stole the Heart of the Universe, merging with it to make himself like unto a god. First defeating Ankhenaten in ancient Egypt, Thanos remade the universe as if Ankhenaten never appeared. The Marvel Universe seemed once again safe."

"Nevertheless, a cabal of cosmic beings of power, such as Eternity and the Living Tribunal, ruled that the now-omnipotent Thanos must be stopped. They prompted an assembly of nearly every super-being, god, and cosmic entity (such as Galactus and the Celestials) help take Thanos down. Dismissing them all, Thanos proved to be too powerful. He could even kill a Celestial with but a glance! Thanos decided that the true sign of his ultimate power would be to destroy the universe and become the one true supreme being. However, after doing so, he realized that this role was ultimately hollow, unfulfilling and empty, not to mention unnatural. He subsequently undid the destruction of the universe and obliterated the Heart from existence. Thus, not only did he strip himself of power, but he made the entire series of events null and void." 


at

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Marvel_Universe 

U_K has incorporated the HOU into his website commentary:

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon2.htm 



> Yikes!




Well, in fairness I was merely extrapolating from U_K's Transcendent (x2) and Omnific (x10?)
multipliers with an idea that there might be roughly 50 Transcendent abilities and 25 Omnific abilities.

I believe U_K has played around with even CRs orders of magnitude higher than what I came up with in designing the IH.


----------



## Saerynishar

Fieari said:
			
		

> Well, I've had my fun.  How about an Akalich Fallen Malakim Wizard 8/Cleric 8/True Necromancer 15?  75 HD of devestating horror, almost impossible to kill except by the most powerful holy beings, and bundled with 4 artifacts using the suggested rules U_K posted earlier.
> 
> The Angel of Death




I can't help but wish that death had some unique epic spells or something.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Real quick question (Wait, you don't believe me? ). Will Ascension feature *some* of your rules governing immortal Artifact Creation and/or Spellcasting? As in, could you use it stand-alone without the Grimoir and build a complete immortal, or does the grimoir hold the bulk of the info on spellcasting and Artifact creation?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey Ltheb dude! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Real quick question (Wait, you don't believe me? ). Will Ascension feature *some* of your rules governing immortal Artifact Creation and/or Spellcasting? As in, could you use it stand-alone without the Grimoir and build a complete immortal, or does the grimoir hold the bulk of the info on spellcasting and Artifact creation?




Ascension will have very basic artifact approximation rules (as will the printed version of the Bestiary). So you'll be able to 'create' epic magic items that approximate to artifacts, but they won't have the unique bits that make artifacts different. It would be self-defeating for me to add such rules to Ascension. 

Beyond the Automatic Metamagic Capacity/Metamagic Freedom, you'll have to wait for the Grimoire before I divulge that.

In other news...

Regarding deity Challenge Rating (when Transcendental and Omnific Powers are present) the aforementioned x2 and x10 multipliers were to be considered speculative at this point. I am not even sure if we will need them. Also I am not even sure if the Neutronium Golem's Challenge Rating is accurate.  

Anothere element of Challenge Ratings I have noticed is that I don't think Cosmic Gods will have the standard 4 artifacts, but instead only one, if even that. At least this will be true of the examples, I'm not enforcing it on NPCs/PCs. Of course this means they take a CR hit if they don't have their full artifacts. I am not sure of the full nuances of this yet, nor whether they should have one artifact valued at all their wealth - which I think could be unbalanced.


----------



## dante58701

when is ascension going to be done?


----------



## GQuail

dante58701 said:
			
		

> when is ascension going to be done?




...is this the same ever-hopeful guy who posted like this before the Crisis?  :>


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> when is ascension going to be done?




I'll be looking to send out the first draft (to a few proofreaders/playtesters) at the end of this month.  Once I get some feedback from them I should know better when I'll be ready. 

I may go ahead with a partial art* early release (because I am totally on my last legs financially) the first or second week of June. Obviously (as with last time) you would get the update free - also I would probably do this with ENWorld rather than one to one, so it will be a far more attractive to people.

*Cover, and maybe about a third of the art.

One other element, I'll not know until the end of this week is the final page count. I'm now thinking it may be above 160 pages - some of the sample deities are taking up a bit more space than I had initially anticipated. Surtur's entry is 5 pages for instance and it would be 6 if I included the Firestarter Prestige Class which may or may not make the final cut. Obviously not all the samples run that length but its now looking like the Appendix will run to 50 pages, where I was once anticipating about 30.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Nearly done? Good to hear.
I like that you might put the prerelease sans-art copy on Enworld, because I intend to get it, and I really dislike going through paypal often.
That being said, I liked your art style in the bestiary. Simple, but detailed enough to get the point across. (The nexus dragon I think was my favorite picture, because just thinking of the thing moving forces me to make will saves)
A 50 page immortal appendix? Wow, fifty pages of pregenerated Smackdown.
Hey, any indication of an immortal power (probobly cosmic or higher) similar in effect to that of a Sphere of Annihilation? I know you dont seem to like Save-or-Die effects, but a few of 'em here and there can really scare the fun back into the game if used appropriatly. "Wait, you mean if that little black ball hits me I die for good? EEEP!"


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hi Ltheb dude! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Nearly done? Good to hear.




It doesn't feel like its nearly done, but a few sleepless nights and I should be there or thereabouts come the end of the month.    



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I like that you might put the prerelease sans-art copy on Enworld, because I intend to get it, and I really dislike going through paypal often.




I think that was will be easier for people...and myself, last time took me ages sending all the files out individually and I didn't want to link emails to preserve buyer confidentiality (and all that jazz).



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> That being said, I liked your art style in the bestiary. Simple, but detailed enough to get the point across. (The nexus dragon I think was my favorite picture, because just thinking of the thing moving forces me to make will saves)




I appreciate the support. I know I am not the ideal choice artist, but until I actually make some money enough to pay an artist, I'm all you've got.   

I'll do my best.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> A 50 page immortal appendix? Wow, fifty pages of pregenerated Smackdown.




I just had a look there, I may be able to squeeze it down to 45-48 ish.

Weirdly the majority of those pages are not stats. I was able to do all the Manifestations within 1 page (or at least all those I have so far).



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Hey, any indication of an immortal power (probobly cosmic or higher) similar in effect to that of a Sphere of Annihilation? I know you dont seem to like Save-or-Die effects, but a few of 'em here and there can really scare the fun back into the game if used appropriatly. "Wait, you mean if that little black ball hits me I die for good? EEEP!"




I sort of prefer the permanent damage route...but I'll see what I can do.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Hey thanks for the info. I was thinking earlier about the Sphere of Annihilation, and now that you bring up your entropy-type damage, I was thinking that instead of Auto-Annihilating someone via touch, that a good conversion for your system might be making the Sphere deal 50 points of permenent (Is entropic a good word to type it as?) damage. I think that is enough damage to scare/kill any mortal character, yet it prevents the mighty Cthulu from dieing to a lucky mage with high Int. (Since there is nothing in the Spheres text saying deities are immune, only that a deity can restore a dead character to life)
I like your permenent damage provision alot. It makes healing slightly more complicated than "I restore xdx+x hp to you." or "You are fully healed, have a nice day."


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey Ltheb matey! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Hey thanks for the info. I was thinking earlier about the Sphere of Annihilation, and now that you bring up your entropy-type damage, I was thinking that instead of Auto-Annihilating someone via touch, that a good conversion for your system might be making the Sphere deal 50 points of permenent (Is entropic a good word to type it as?) damage. I think that is enough damage to scare/kill any mortal character, yet it prevents the mighty Cthulu from dieing to a lucky mage with high Int. (Since there is nothing in the Spheres text saying deities are immune, only that a deity can restore a dead character to life).




I think a Sphere of Annihilation would cause something with a working anatomy to probably make a save versus death in addition to the permanent damage.

However, I don't think it would necessarily kill an Outsider (Nor construct, fey or intelligent undead) like this, though it would still do damage. 

Outsiders with regeneration should be able to survive decapitation (I seem to recall this is mentioned in the recent stats for Pazuzu in Dragon Magazine (#329 off the top of my head I think).

One thing I have been puzzling over is why the heck they gave Elementals a Constitution score? As far as I can see it doesn't make sense for something to have a Con score AND be Immune to Critical Hits.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I like your permenent damage provision alot. It makes healing slightly more complicated than "I restore xdx+x hp to you." or "You are fully healed, have a nice day."




Some wounds take a bit more effort to heal. Technically permanent damage is permanent. You cannot restore those lost hit points, what actually happens is that you use the wishes to gain new hit points.


----------



## dante58701

*Just helping the master*

The reason elementals have immunity to critical hit, even though they have a constitution score, is because they lack any "vital" organs due to their pretty straight forward elemental nature. Sand seriously lacks vitals points, as would water, ect. This is why Genies are outsiders rather than elementals. They have vital organs. The reason elementals have a constituton score is because they are very much alive. They arent without their own "life" force. Which is why they are vulnerable to energy drain and similar life force based attacks and effects. I hope this clears that up for you. 

Good luck with your work, I cant wait till you finally finish your latest work. Im dying to spend some money on it. If its anything like your last work I know it will kick major ass. Can we say ass here? Anyway, one question...what would a fully advanced Demon Prince of Secrets look like?


----------



## CRGreathouse

FWIW, I agree with dante.


----------



## paradox42

For comparison, another monster type that has CON scores but is immune to crits is the Ooze. Oozes are essentially undifferentiated masses of cells, or perhaps even gigantic single cells, to use modern terminology. Because they're undifferentiated, they're immune to critical hits, and have no front or back to speak of. But since they're cells, they are very clearly alive, and have metabolism and health like more complex creatures do. Therefore, they have CON scores. Elementals are basically the same thing, just using a different body medium.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

(With regards Elementals) Its possible I am just seeing giants instead of windmills and overanalysing stuff...as usual. 

You should see the state of me trying to work out the final build of the spell-like abilities for the divinity templates.


----------



## Saerynishar

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey guys!
> 
> (With regards Elementals) Its possible I am just seeing giants instead of windmills and overanalysing stuff...as usual.
> 
> You should see the state of me trying to work out the final build of the spell-like abilities for the divinity templates.




Just start applying them at random. That can't go wrong.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Assuming you still give deities the option of taking Alter Reality, are Spell-Like abilities worth it? Though in the Bestiary the only things that had Alter reality were very powerful, was that intentional? After a quick glance, the only two monsters I saw having it in the Bestiary are the Nexus Dragon, and Alabastor (NOTE: He doent have alter Reality, but Wish at will is close enough) Though I just noticed your version of Alter reality is VERY strong  Spontaneous epic spells makes for a tough fight indeed.


----------



## paradox42

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> You should see the state of me trying to work out the final build of the spell-like abilities for the divinity templates.



Eh, I'd rather just see the templates themselves (along with the rest of Ascension of course).


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

paradox42 said:
			
		

> Eh, I'd rather just see the templates themselves (along with the rest of Ascension of course).



Seconded.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Saerynishar said:
			
		

> Just start applying them at random. That can't go wrong.




Why didn't I think of that! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Assuming you still give deities the option of taking Alter Reality,




Its optional, but it wouldn't necessarily be standard below Sidereal power.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> are Spell-Like abilities worth it?




There are a few things that deities should be able to do as standard that can be achieved through spell-like abilities rather than creating a whole new special ability.

I have really been trying to boil everything down to its essence and keep things to 9 spell-like abilities (one per spell school) for each Divinity Template.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Though in the Bestiary the only things that had Alter reality were very powerful, was that intentional?




Its basically concerns over the Disciple thru Greater Deity templates rather than the more powerful stuff which pretty much solves itself.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> After a quick glance, the only two monsters I saw having it in the Bestiary are the Nexus Dragon, and Alabastor (NOTE: He doent have alter Reality, but Wish at will is close enough) Though I just noticed your version of Alter reality is VERY strong  Spontaneous epic spells makes for a tough fight indeed..




To me Alter Reality is like epic wish. But to be honest I don't see much difference between that and a wish backed up with Automatic Metamagic Capacity.

So anything from Elder One onwards is probably going to be able to use wish at will in some capacity.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Eh, I'd rather just see the templates themselves (along with the rest of Ascension of course).






			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Seconded.




Well the Spell-like abilities of the templates are part of the templates.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have really been trying to boil everything down to its essence and keep things to 9 spell-like abilities (one per spell school) for each Divinity Template.




One per School 'eh?
I like that idea alot more that the way D&dG handled it (Domain spells at will) Because it means 1 - You dont get stuck with sucky spells that are superceeded by other higher level ones, like the alignment based domains and 2 - You tend to have more options with dealing with opponents with strange immunities.
Oh, do these Spell-Likes have a use limit, like say 1/per day/per Divine rank, or are they at will? The Destruction domain or the Death domain sound really good for At will. Of course, some crazy power like say Transendental Blast* or whatever that does a bazzilion d1000 damage and retroactivly kills anyone who tries to block it the turn before they actually do is slightly better. Slightly .
(*Note: if there is a transendental blast [I suspect there is] I wouldn't think it be any less powerful than my joke idea.)
Side note: Anyone think the idea of a Timelord level Ninja/Pirate-being amusing.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy Ltheb matey! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> One per School 'eh?
> I like that idea alot more that the way D&dG handled it (Domain spells at will) Because it means 1 - You dont get stuck with sucky spells that are superceeded by other higher level ones, like the alignment based domains and 2 - You tend to have more options with dealing with opponents with strange immunities.




Well in fairness, you get the domain spells as part of the Portfolio Templates. But I only want to cover the most generic stuff with the Divinity Templates.

As for the 'getting stuck with sucky spells', thats why Automatic Metamagic Capacity is useful.

One annoyance is that Teleport and Plane Shift are both Conjuration.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, do these Spell-Likes have a use limit, like say 1/per day/per Divine rank, or are they at will?




All spells except your top level spells are at will. They are 1/day/Divine Bonus as you correctly guessed.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The Destruction domain or the Death domain sound really good for At will. Of course, some crazy power like say Transendental Blast* or whatever that does a bazzilion d1000 damage and retroactivly kills anyone who tries to block it the turn before they actually do is slightly better. Slightly .
> (*Note: if there is a transendental blast [I suspect there is] I wouldn't think it be any less powerful than my joke idea.)




As far as I can recall off the top of my head, the three major Transcendental Effects are Astro, Omega and Ultima which are each double-dimensional blasts.

I'm not sure if I also have an actual 'Transcendental Effect' or if it evolved into one of the above.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Side note: Anyone think the idea of a Timelord level Ninja/Pirate-being amusing.




Funny you mention it there is a Time Lord whose moniker is Worldbeard...I kid you not.


----------



## dante58701

*I love how it logs me in automatically!!!*

Anyway, Im interested in being a playtester, but what do you do to do that exactly?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
I threw a couple emails your way, but my Email service (Hotmail) gives me a Send Failure message. I sent a copy via the Enworld mailing link.

The astro-effect sounds nasty. 
I think you mentioned earlier the Ultima-effect. (So painful. )
Omega-Effect... I dont think my mind can handle it. 
U_K, you must be an epic level rogue, because you have repeatedly used the Disable Device skill on my brain.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

dante58701 said:
			
		

> Anyway, Im interested in being a playtester, but what do you do to do that exactly?



*pricks up ears*


----------



## dante58701

*Well....*

 ...his site does say to contact here if Im interested in play testing. Though I dont really know what all it entails, other than it entailing the testing of a new product. I loved his last book so Im willing to give it a try.


----------



## Fieari

I'm sure my group'd be happy to try it out as well, but of course, the call for playtesters doesn't seem to have gone out yet...

Question U_K: The Awesome Visage aura ability "strikes people dumb".  What does that mean, in game terms?  I assume they can take no actions.  For how long?  Is it a "Mind-effecting" ability?


----------



## dante58701

*Dicefreaks*

How compatible is the epic bestiary with the various dice freaks templates.
Which dicefreaks templates would be good to use with the epic bestiary?
the reason I ask is because I kinda need the official stance you have on this. Admittedly many of the dice freaks templates seem like they would be acceptable, but many more seem like they would not mesh very well with you system... particularly those with cosmic ranks. They do some things differently.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Actually, on a slightly more goofy note: Krust, does this seem ballpark-balanced as a minor artifact? http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Rod_of_the_Inviolate_Sanctum_(Minor_Artifact)

Fieari, you going to attempt to bring that game together again or have you accepted it as another victim of Katrina?


----------



## paradox42

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Actually, on a slightly more goofy note: Krust, does this seem ballpark-balanced as a minor artifact? http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Rod_of_the_Inviolate_Sanctum_(Minor_Artifact)



Nice item! Even if Krust doesn't say it's balanced, I've got some powerful casters in my setting who'd like to have something like this. Consider it YOINKed!

Of course, my game's artifact definitions are slightly different from those in the standard rules, partly as a result of having rules for artifact creation. But even under my definitions, this item is a Minor Artifact rather than Major. I'd just need to figure out creation costs and prerequisites, really.


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Re: Playtesting/Editing*

Hey guys! 

I had an email from ENWorld suggesting that I could initiate a pre-order scheme for the Immortals Handbook: Ascension. This will likely take place sometime around the start of June.

Anyone who preorders, is one of the regulars here and is interested in providing a little feedback, I'll probably send them the very early text version (in fact that version may not even have all the completed text at that stage). Although that won't be sent from ENWorld - I'll send that myself.

Do the rest of you still think the Beta release is a good idea? I mean personally, I know people aren't buying these things for the art, but its always much, much nicer to have the art completed, it softens the text and lends more personality to the book.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Anyway, Im interested in being a playtester, but what do you do to do that exactly?




Do you mean, what do you have to do to get the playtest document (if so see above)? 

Or what do I expect the playtesters to do in such a relatively short space of time?

Basically I have unswerving faith in my Challenge Rating/Encounter Level system to be able to very accurately balance most aspects of the book to the point where playtesting the 'big picture' is not required. Where I think a second opinion (or opinions) will be of use is in looking at the individual pieces (like the divine abilities) and telling me which ones are possibly too weak or too powerful. With so many abilities, and with me so close to the work for so long, its inevitable that I must have made some errors in this regard.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I threw a couple emails your way, but my Email service (Hotmail) gives me a Send Failure message. I sent a copy via the Enworld mailing link.




Yes, a few people mentioned that. I am in the process of changing those details on my website front page as we speak. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The astro-effect sounds nasty.
> I think you mentioned earlier the Ultima-effect. (So painful. )
> Omega-Effect... I dont think my mind can handle it.




It was only a matter of working out what would happen if (figuratively speaking) the power of two dimensions collided...or was ripped apart.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K, you must be an epic level rogue, because you have repeatedly used the Disable Device skill on my brain.




Be careful, I could be a Mind Flayer Rogue. Which is a pretty cool idea come to think of it, and sort of reminds me of my entry to the Setting Submission contest (remember the contest that ultimately spawned Eberron).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'm sure my group'd be happy to try it out as well, but of course, the call for playtesters doesn't seem to have gone out yet...




Yes, I will sort out the exact details of that over the next few days. But its almost certainly going to be linked to the pre-order scheme for simplicity.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Question U_K: The Awesome Visage aura ability "strikes people dumb".  What does that mean, in game terms?  I assume they can take no actions.  For how long?  Is it a "Mind-effecting" ability?




It means they cannot speak or otherwise communicate verbally. Other that that they can act normally.

It is a mind-affecting effect.

The effect lasts as long as you are within its Aura.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Do the rest of you still think the Beta release is a good idea? I mean personally, I know people aren't buying these things for the art, but its always much, much nicer to have the art completed, it softens the text and lends more personality to the book.




I don't really think you can afford NOT to release it.  Plus, I freakin' want Ascension and I want it now.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante dude! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> How compatible is the epic bestiary with the various dice freaks templates.




Well you'd first have to tell me which specific templates you were talking about. Dicefreaks has loads, and even though I have read most of them trying to remember specific details about them enough to make an informed judgement off the top of my head is probably just going to boggle me.   



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Which dicefreaks templates would be good to use with the epic bestiary? the reason I ask is because I kinda need the official stance you have on this. Admittedly many of the dice freaks templates seem like they would be acceptable, but many more seem like they would not mesh very well with you system... particularly those with cosmic ranks. They do some things differently.




If you give me links to the specific templates you want me to analyse, I'll be more than happy to do so.

I am of the basic opinion that you generally shouldn't add divine power templates to most of the deity type monsters* in the Bestiary, because they already benefit from such things.

*Any with a Divine Bonus (or Insight Bonus in the case of the Akishra and Cogent).


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Well, in the event you missed all of my emails, I am interested in playtesting / editing. I definitely like the Idea of a Beta / or Art-"lite" version, though your artwork really helps clarify and accents some of your information (at least it did in the besitary) (Point of note: Nexus Dragon ). 
I have run quite a few "epic" level games, and I can definitely tell you which powers/feats are "must-haves" or "Too good as written" compaired to everything around their powerlevel. I do tend to pick up a lot of typos too. (except in my own work)
Perhaps you are more accurately a Mindflayer Rogue 21/Illithid Savant 20.
Good luck finishing up Ascension (though luck has nothing to do with it... but a +20 luck bonus to Craft: Gamesystems never hurts)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Actually, on a slightly more goofy note: Krust, does this seem ballpark-balanced as a minor artifact? http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Rod_of_the_Inviolate_Sanctum_(Minor_Artifact)




I love the idea.

As to whether its balanced. The term Minor Artifact, to me at least, simply denotes that more than one of such items exist, rather than how powerful it is.

One thing I don't like is that the tower height is linked to the caster level of the Rod Bearer (instead of the Rod Creator). Which means if a lower powered spellcaster gained the rod, a tower initially built three miles high might have its top third collapse!

Also I don't necessarily understand why the wielder should gain true strike at will with what is essentially an arcane spellcaster item. Seems a bit out of sorts.

If I was tweaking it I would probably specify that the _gate_ could only access one plane. Each rod could access one plane, hence the minor artifact part. With others opening gates to different planes. Therefore you would have one for the Nine Hells, one for the Seven Heavens and so forth.

It may also be somewhat more balanced to extrapolate the tower dimensions based upon a Daern's Instand Fortress, rather than making it 1/10th of a mile, it might be 30 ft. tall/level etc. 

But thats all just off the top of my head.

As an artifact for a 30th-level character (same level as the creator) I suppose it is balanced enough).



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I don't really think you can afford NOT to release it. Plus, I freakin' want Ascension and I want it now.




I know, I know.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hello again mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Well, in the event you missed all of my emails,




I got two emails from you, I was about to reply to them. However, I anticipated the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the one in terms of prioritising my responses today...and since I have now covered everything in your emails over the past few posts I may, for the sake of brevity, not reply...I hope you don't take offence.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I am interested in playtesting / editing. I definitely like the Idea of a Beta / or Art-"lite" version, though your artwork really helps clarify and accents some of your information (at least it did in the besitary) (Point of note: Nexus Dragon ).








			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I have run quite a few "epic" level games, and I can definitely tell you which powers/feats are "must-haves" or "Too good as written" compaired to everything around their powerlevel. I do tend to pick up a lot of typos too. (except in my own work)




Count yourself on the short list. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Perhaps you are more accurately a Mindflayer Rogue 21/Illithid Savant 20.




Far too low level. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Good luck finishing up Ascension (though luck has nothing to do with it... but a +20 luck bonus to Craft: Gamesystems never hurts)




I think 'god speed' is the more apropos blessing.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Do the rest of you still think the Beta release is a good idea? I mean personally, I know people aren't buying these things for the art, but its always much, much nicer to have the art completed, it softens the text and lends more personality to the book.




I think the Beta release is a good idea, so long as you keep a few things constant. For one, it shouldn't cost much less (if less at all) than the full version. This is predicated on the idea that people who buy the Beta will get any updates for free. As such, buying the Beta'd essentially be buying the full release early, at a discount price. Also, make sure it's pretty clearly marked as a Beta release, so no reviewers think to critique the product before it's final form.

I'm also taking it on faith that I'm one of the editors.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I got two emails from you, I was about to reply to them. However, I anticipated the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the one in terms of prioritising my responses today...and since I have now covered everything in your emails over the past few posts I may, for the sake of brevity, not reply...I hope you don't take offence.



No problem , I just wasn't sure if they were sent or lost in transition or whatever. 


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Far too low level.



True, true... 


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I think 'god speed' is the more apropos blessing.



Just 'god'-speed? What ever happened to Transendental-Speed? (Yes, I just butchered the phrase for the sake of a lame joke)


----------



## dante58701

I was more referring to their undead templates than anything. But I do wonder about the Gates of Hell templates too. Two other questions...Nephillim, what do they look like. Im interested in playing one of those in my next campaign. Id always envisioned each nephillim as being different, depending upon their heritage. The second question...are you releasing a preview as well. Im just dying to get my hands on a Nephilim. Ive already got plans to buy the whole book...but Im going nutz here with anticipation. I know...I know...Rome wasnt built in a day and all that.


----------



## Fieari

Don't know U_K's specific interpretation, but we know nephilim are going to be really big, at the least...

Wikipedia entry for Nephilim


----------



## Fieari

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Fieari, you going to attempt to bring that game together again or have you accepted it as another victim of Katrina?




Hm.  I had been writing it up, but perhaps we could pull it together again...


----------



## dante58701

Im interested in seeing Metatron, whats he gonna be like statwise.


----------



## Sledge

beta release, alpha release, whatever, just send it now!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I think the Beta release is a good idea, so long as you keep a few things constant. *For one, it shouldn't cost much less (if less at all) than the full version.* This is predicated on the idea that people who buy the Beta will get any updates for free. As such, buying the Beta'd essentially be buying the full release early, at a discount price. Also, make sure it's pretty clearly marked as a Beta release, so no reviewers think to critique the product before it's final form.




I'm not sure what you are advocating here? Are you saying the Beta should cost less or shouldn't?  

I'm not sure how pre-ordering works in the RPG Industry (with regards pricing), I'll have to talk to my contact at ENWorld about it.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm also taking it on faith that I'm one of the editors.




Did you even need to ask.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  

I would love to see a beta release of Ascension assuming it brings it sooner than later and would gladly pay full price for it. 

My rough take is, most of the 100 or so odd posters at enworld would gladly take it sooner than later even if it meant viewing it in lieu of art and subject to minor modification on subsequent editions.  I certainly feel that way but can appreciate countervailing concerns.

In reference to playtesting I would be more than happy to (enthusiastically) give things a whirl if you like.  Frankly I feel as though it's the least I could do for you seeing you've been a major help 9more than you know) to some games and projects that I've worked on over the last three years.

Wishing the best either way and, seriously, please don't hesitate to get in touch if I can help.


----------



## Knight Otu

Oohh, may I be an editor, too?  

(I do have a credit as a content reader, actually, so I might actually be up to it)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> I was more referring to their undead templates than anything. But I do wonder about the Gates of Hell templates too.




Do you have the links to save me hunting round. 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Two other questions...Nephillim, what do they look like. Im interested in playing one of those in my next campaign. Id always envisioned each nephillim as being different, depending upon their heritage.




My Nephilim (Lonely Ones) are Large Abominations which were going to take their visual cues from the following classic illustration.

http://www.eosdev.com/Illustrations_Quotes/Cyndi/eos_fool_hermit.htm

Lonely One...Hermit...thats the reasoning. 

I picture them as pale, gaunt giants. Could possibly be mistaken for Stone Giants at a glance, if clean shaven that is. 

While Atropals are aborted godlings, Nephilim represent those godlings discarded and abandoned by their parents for one reason or another just after they are born.

Whats that artifact they have...a magic lamp called a Star Lantern...does that drain divinity from deities? I'm sorry I never give out secrets like that.   

45 Hit Dice you say, like their Anakim brethren? Okay, whose been stealing my notes.   



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> The second question...are you releasing a preview as well.




I plan to release a preview of Ascension next weekend.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im just dying to get my hands on a Nephilim. Ive already got plans to buy the whole book...but Im going nutz here with anticipation. I know...I know...Rome wasnt built in a day and all that.




Well I hate to burst your bubble, however, the Nephilim are going to be covered within Volume 2 of the Bestiary, not in Ascension.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Dante dude! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im interested in seeing Metatron, whats he gonna be like statwise.




Given the angelic progression in the Bestiary you could easily guess some of the basics like Hit Dice. 

Far too easy for a competition question though...and don't worry Sledge dude I haven't forgotten who won the last competition. 

By the way I meant to say that I was lucky enough to see X-Men 3 last night. I say lucky enough because the first showing was packed and we didn't get in. Fortunately they had a showing every hour, so we didn't have long to wait. I have to be honest I really enjoyed it, and it was certainly, for me, the best of the X-Men movies (I like all three), and I finally got to see my favourite X-man, Juggernaut, on the big screen, albeit all too briefly, although he does have a few great lines. The big action set pieces are great and suitably epic. Overall, I was entertained. If you even remotely liked the first two you will love this.

Some words of advice, if you don't have your tickets pre-booked, get there early. Apparently its selling out all over the place.


----------



## Sledge

My wife and I are seeing it on monday, glad to hear a positive review of it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya historian dude! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I would love to see a beta release of Ascension assuming it brings it sooner than later and would gladly pay full price for it.
> 
> My rough take is, most of the 100 or so odd posters at enworld would gladly take it sooner than later even if it meant viewing it in lieu of art and subject to minor modification on subsequent editions.  I certainly feel that way but can appreciate countervailing concerns.




Thats probably the way I will go, though I'd be happy with even 10 pre-orders nevermind 100.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In reference to playtesting I would be more than happy to (enthusiastically) give things a whirl if you like.  Frankly I feel as though it's the least I could do for you seeing you've been a major help 9more than you know) to some games and projects that I've worked on over the last three years.




I appreciate all the help I can get matey.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Wishing the best either way and, seriously, please don't hesitate to get in touch if I can help.




I'll sort everything out for next weekend, consider your name down on the list.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello there! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Oohh, may I be an editor, too?
> 
> (I do have a credit as a content reader, actually, so I might actually be up to it)




Wait a minute...Knight Otu...no I'm sorry, never heard of you. Are you one of these newbies?


Only teasing mate, happy to have you onboard!


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hello there!
> 
> 
> 
> Wait a minute...Knight Otu...no I'm sorry, never heard of you. Are you one of these newbies?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> HI'm not sure what you are advocating here? Are you saying the Beta should cost less or shouldn't?




I did kind of waffle on the issue there. I suppose I'm advocating full pricing, since they'll get the updates for free. No point in undercutting yourself.



> _I'm not sure how pre-ordering works in the RPG Industry (with regards pricing), I'll have to talk to my contact at ENWorld about it._




As far as I know, most pre-ordering is at full price. But then again, that's usually for the full product also, not a Beta.



> _Did you even need to ask. _




Good point, but I wanted to be sure.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I appreciate all the help I can get matey.
> 
> I'll sort everything out for next weekend, consider your name down on the list.




Cool; I would be glad to help in any way I can.


----------



## Pssthpok

I for one would support and purchase a Beta release, art or no art, just for the sake of promoting your work and getting my mitts on the material. Keep up the good work, UK, and keep us posted on the Beta!


----------



## dante58701

The templates are in their official section. Where they keep there official templates and stuff. Id post you a link but they banned my friend and we use the same computer, so by proxy Ive been banned too which sucks. Too bad nephillim are gonna be in the next book, but deities are more important. As for the picture for the nephillim, awesome idea. I love the concept. What other ideas have you been toying with?


----------



## GQuail

I'd also be keen on getting my hands on a Beta copy of this book.  Sure, the great board crash wiped out everything I had to say on the topic of the Immortals Handbook, but I still think it rocks.  

Then again, my campaign is going so slowly that I won't hit epic levels for another 2 years or so: so I'm maybe the only one unfazed by U_K's release schedule.... ;-)


----------



## dante58701

If the Nephillim are finished...can I request a draft copy. I already know Im going to need the whole series to compliment the Epic Bestiary that I already have but, I really really really want a Nephillim. Pretty pretty pretty please with sugar and hot neked chick on top? Can I have a nephillim? LOL!!! My emails is pontoonpontoon2000@yahoo.com, if you can spare the time. If not, thats ok, Ill just wait and squirm in freakish anticipation for my all time favorite creature. Such is the life of a melodramatic nerd.


----------



## dante58701

An idea for you...half-phoenix. Or phoenix related abomination ..spawned from an evil goddess of lust and a phoenix.


----------



## paradox42

I, too, advocate a full-price Beta release, given that you intend to give people free updates (or to borrow another term from software sales, like Beta version, "upgrade"). And I'll certainly plan on getting one. My Epic game's party "down time" is nearly finished, and they're about ready to go on real adventures again instead of pursuing personal projects and adventure hooks dropped into those events (which is what I've had them doing for the last month and a half or so). I can't help but think that Ascension will spark a whole lot of plot ideas, even if it isn't the "Chronicle" book that talks about actual deity-level adventures.

So bring it on!


----------



## Fieari

dante58701 said:
			
		

> An idea for you...half-phoenix. Or phoenix related abomination ..spawned from an evil goddess of lust and a phoenix.




When the apotheosis... er... ascention rules come out, I plan to be delving into this myself.  The backstory for my campaign world includes a race of phoenii quite extensively, and while I've tried repeatedly to stat them out, without U_K's rules, I've fallen on my face repeatedly.  Not the mere 20 HD creature in MM2, but something more along the lines of the cosmic phoenix entity from X-Men fame.  Using dragon-styled age categories too...

Half-phoenii (I call 'em Phaetons, after the greek god), dark-phoenii, and varyingly elementally aligned phoenii too.

Fortunately, so far, my players haven't reached cosmic levels yet, so I can hand wave their abilities... but when ascention is revealed, oh baby.

Hrm.  That reminds me of the other thing I might want to stat out... Stars, ala "A Wrinkle in Time"... pre- _and_ post- fall stars.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> The templates are in their official section. Where they keep there official templates and stuff. Id post you a link but they banned my friend and we use the same computer, so by proxy Ive been banned too which sucks.




Who was your friend?

Without the links its going to be a tad too time consuming for me at the moment. Maybe in a few weeks when I have some breathing room to go explore I can give you more feedback.

However, as I mentioned previously. Don't apply dicefreaks divinity templates to creatures from the Bestiary that already incorporate them. If the template is something other than a granting divine or pseudo-divine power then its there should be no problems using it.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Too bad nephillim are gonna be in the next book, but deities are more important. As for the picture for the nephillim, awesome idea. I love the concept. What other ideas have you been toying with?




Loads. I already have the 100+ monsters for Bestiary Volumes 2 and 3 determined.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> If the Nephillim are finished...can I request a draft copy.




I'm afraid they are nowhere near finished.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> I already know Im going to need the whole series to compliment the Epic Bestiary that I already have but, I really really really want a Nephillim. Pretty pretty pretty please with sugar and hot neked chick on top? Can I have a nephillim? LOL!!! My emails is pontoonpontoon2000@yahoo.com, if you can spare the time. If not, thats ok, Ill just wait and squirm in freakish anticipation for my all time favorite creature. Such is the life of a melodramatic nerd.




Sorry to disappoint you dude. In the meantime I would suggest using the stats for the Anakim (brothers of the Nephilim), just halve their strength.


----------



## Upper_Krust

I appreciate all the words of encouragement and support guys! 

Hey paradox42! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> I, too, advocate a full-price Beta release, given that you intend to give people free updates (or to borrow another term from software sales, like Beta version, "upgrade"). And I'll certainly plan on getting one. My Epic game's party "down time" is nearly finished, and they're about ready to go on real adventures again instead of pursuing personal projects and adventure hooks dropped into those events (which is what I've had them doing for the last month and a half or so). I can't help but think that Ascension will spark a whole lot of plot ideas, even if it isn't the "Chronicle" book that talks about actual deity-level adventures.
> 
> So bring it on!




Well of course I have adventure ideas in Ascension for all the Templates and all the Sample Deities. Only another 75 or so ideas, but it should keep people going until Chronicle really delivers with the ideas including a full epic/immortal campaign strategy from 25th to 100th-level.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> An idea for you...half-phoenix. Or phoenix related abomination ..spawned from an evil goddess of lust and a phoenix.




Topical, given X-Men 3, however, didn't Dragon magazine do a Half Phoenix template recently?



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> When the apotheosis... er... ascention rules come out, I plan to be delving into this myself.  The backstory for my campaign world includes a race of phoenii quite extensively, and while I've tried repeatedly to stat them out, without U_K's rules, I've fallen on my face repeatedly.  Not the mere 20 HD creature in MM2, but something more along the lines of the cosmic phoenix entity from X-Men fame.  Using dragon-styled age categories too...




Cool.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Half-phoenii (I call 'em Phaetons, after the greek god), dark-phoenii, and varyingly elementally aligned phoenii too.




What about the Phaethon abomination in the ELH?



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Fortunately, so far, my players haven't reached cosmic levels yet, so I can hand wave their abilities... but when ascention is revealed, oh baby.








			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Hrm.  That reminds me of the other thing I might want to stat out... Stars, ala "A Wrinkle in Time"... pre- _and_ post- fall stars.




Then you might enjoy the sample Old One, Algol - the Demon Star.


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> What about the Phaethon abomination in the ELH?



Well, to be honest, I've been using phaeton for half-phoenii since before I've seen the ELH... fortunately, there are a number of different ways of transliterating the greek, and I tend to use Phaeton so...

Yeah, kinda a shabby excuse.  Ah well.  But since Phaeton is simply the greek word for "Shining", I could always either find another language for "Shining". Italian gives lucidare, German glänzen, Russian siyayushij, Japanese hikage... hm.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Then you might enjoy the sample Old One, Algol - the Demon Star.



Your words intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.


----------



## Kerrick

> Without the links its going to be a tad too time consuming for me at the moment. Maybe in a few weeks when I have some breathing room to go explore I can give you more feedback.




Since I also pop over to the DF boards every once in awhile, I grabbed the link for you: This is the forum with all the templates.

Get the work done first, though. 

BTW, I'm in for editing, if you need more eyes.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

I, too, would snap up a beta release. The sooner I can get my hands on Ascension the better, full art or no full art.


----------



## paradox42

I'm fortunate enough to have a three-week break from the game here, which should be enough time to snag a copy of Ascension and skim/read the most important parts before the game might need them.

One thing I'm particularly keen to see is the "Quickening method" of gaining divinity, and how (or whether) it interacts with fighting monsters that have effective divine ranks. The potential issue here is that since my PCs will eventually be facing down a Polychromatic Dragon that's been keeping a war between "mortal" dragons going long after it should have at least reached a truce, presuming they manage to kill the little SOB, what happens to them? Does that make them Immortals suddenly? Important question to answer there.

Of course, since this dragon himself will be a Juvenile with at least 10 Sorcerer levels, they're not exactly in a good position to face him down anytime soon. Dragons that can not only Blasphemy and Limited Wish at will, but can do so as Swift actions 3 times/day each thanks to Quicken Spell-Like Ability, are truly sickening villians to contemplate.  I've been amusing myself today, in part, by statting the little monster up. But still, potential future campaign issue I should start planning for ASAP.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Thanks for the continued support guys - much appreciated! 

Hey paradox42! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> I'm fortunate enough to have a three-week break from the game here, which should be enough time to snag a copy of Ascension and skim/read the most important parts before the game might need them.




Cheers dude!



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> One thing I'm particularly keen to see is the "Quickening method" of gaining divinity, and how (or whether) it interacts with fighting monsters that have effective divine ranks. The potential issue here is that since my PCs will eventually be facing down a Polychromatic Dragon that's been keeping a war between "mortal" dragons going long after it should have at least reached a truce, presuming they manage to kill the little SOB, what happens to them? Does that make them Immortals suddenly? Important question to answer there.




Not exactly, quintessence alone does not make you a deity, there are a few other prerequisites to consider. Also you don't get all a defeated deities 'power', so if you were to permanently slay a Lesser God, you would not become a Lesser God yourself.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Of course, since this dragon himself will be a Juvenile with at least 10 Sorcerer levels, they're not exactly in a good position to face him down anytime soon. Dragons that can not only Blasphemy and Limited Wish at will, but can do so as Swift actions 3 times/day each thanks to Quicken Spell-Like Ability, are truly sickening villians to contemplate.  I've been amusing myself today, in part, by statting the little monster up. But still, potential future campaign issue I should start planning for ASAP.


----------



## poilbrun

Hi there UK!

Hope you've been doing well?

I just wanted to chime in and say that even though I mainly lurk on the forums (I check it at least once a day), I am still eagerly awaiting the release of Ascension. You can thus count on another sale as soon as the first version of the book is out!


----------



## paradox42

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Not exactly, quintessence alone does not make you a deity, there are a few other prerequisites to consider. Also you don't get all a defeated deities 'power', so if you were to permanently slay a Lesser God, you would not become a Lesser God yourself.



So, like I said, this is why I need to read those rules.    I need to be certain of what can happen, especially given the known play styles of my players. But it seems I don't have long to wait now, which is a Good Thing!


----------



## Upper_Krust

poilbrun said:
			
		

> Hi there UK!




Hey poilbrun matey! 

I hope you and 'Izzy' are doing well?



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Hope you've been doing well?




Well I'm still on three square meals a day, however each meal is a hot bowl of steam (j/k). The good news is that it beats the heck out of the Atkin's diet, I've dropped 20 pounds in 2 months...although that could be due to me resuming my weight training regime and running 5+ miles/week since the start of April.  

I'm a lean, mean, writing machine.



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> I just wanted to chime in and say that even though I mainly lurk on the forums (I check it at least once a day), I am still eagerly awaiting the release of Ascension. You can thus count on another sale as soon as the first version of the book is out!




I appreciate the love dude!


----------



## Anabstercorian

Awesome.  If you have your health, you can only fall so far.  Stay frosty.


----------



## Saerynishar

I'll help you playtest if you're interested at all. I'm painfully new here, and lost what few posts I had when the boards went so zany, but I've been running various epic games for a while now, and have worked as a copy-editor in the past. As a side note, never work as a copy-editor. You take what work you can get, which means you're quickly trying to decide if "she touched his strong, manly chest" is a better phrase than "she ran her fingers down his strong, manly chest."


----------



## dante58701

*A fallen seraphim for the master of epic...*

Let me know if any of my math is wrong...I do hate making mistakes. I decided fallen seraphim in my campaigns would look like the mortals they seduce into evil. I also decided that in order for these few and very rare beings to stave off the numerous and potent forces of righteousness, they would have to be exceedingly powerful. Afterall, good creatures work well together, while evil turns in on itself in the most gruesome ways. As for their beauty. I thought it would be fitting if a beautiful angel walked up, ripped out someones still beating heart and then ate it. Not all that is evil need be ugly. If you have any tips or suggestions, I would be most honored to have them.


ANGEL, BALSAREPH - FALLEN SERAPHIM
Cosmic Nemesis, Fallen Universal Deva
Medium Outsider (Angel, Evil, Extraplanar, Fallen)
Hit Dice: 177d100+6195 (47,790 hp)
Initiative: +60
Speed: 1000 ft. (204 squares), fly 4000 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 288 (+50 deflection, +20 Dex, +32 divine, +176 natural), touch 112, flat footed 268
Base Attack/Grapple: +177/+263
Attack: Claw or Slam +232 melee (10d10+54 plus 10d10 divine/19-20)
Full Attack: 6 claws or slams +232 melee (10d10+54 plus 10d10 divine fire/19-20), and 6 wings +229 melee (8d6+27 plus 8d6 divine fire)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Androgyne ray, authority, divine fire, ray of damnation, spell-like abilities, spells, splendrous visage, summon fallen angel, wrath of the fallen
Special Qualities: Beatific visage, damage reduction 85/-, divine traits (old one), fallen angelic traits (first choir), infinity halo, regeneration 85, slipstream, spell resistance 219, unholy messiah, virtual size categories
Saves: Fort +157, Ref +142, Will +166
Abilities: Str 119 (+54), Dex 51, Con 81, Int 82, Wis 98, Cha 111 (+50)
Skills: Omnicompetant - All skills 212 + ability bonus
Feats: Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Cleave, Empower Spell, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Great Cleave, Greater Spell Penetration, Heighten Spell, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam, wing), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Maximize Spell, Multiattack, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Spell Penetration, Still Spell, Weapon Focus (slam), Widen Spell
Epic Feats: Automatic Metamagic Capacity* (x24), Blinding Speed, Devastating Critical (slam, wing), Dire Charge, Enhance Spell, Epic Prowess, Epic Spellcasting, Great Smiting, Metamagic Freedom*, Overwhelming Critical (slam, wing), Spectral Strike, Superior Initiative *New epic feats - see page 3
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or Council (7)
Challenge Rating: 190
Treasure: Black Bible of Insidious Hypocrisy
Alignment: Always evil (chaotic, lawful or neutral, dependent upon the plane)
Advancement: 178-255 (Large), 256-265 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: +96

[Assuming you do not die when you gaze upon it] This creature resembles an incredibly beautiful dark violet human male at the center of a miniature violet star. He has six arms, each gently poised. Its emotions are unreadable, as if simultaneously it can show antipathy and sympathy. Six devastating black wings bloom from his back, catching the light like perfectly polished mirrors. You have never witnessed a more beautiful creature, even his motion is majestic as if embroiled in some choreographed pavane. His six voices call out to your soul. As he approaches, you feel your essence almost explode with rapture and you sense that before this moment you failed to understand the true meaning of sin. 

The balsareph, sometimes known as angels of sin, are the manifestations of the failings of the upper planes of good. In eons past they fulfilled the role of cosmic nemeses, who sought out and battled good overgods for the greater glory of evil. Now their role is involved with disrupting the cosmic balance. Seven fallen balsareph are known to exist, each, in effect, is one of the lower planes and as a consequence also represents one of the seven deadly sins. Their true names are unknown to any except them. Like the fallen cherubim, these cosmic forces were imprisoned from reality in a bid to prevent the destruction of the universe from the devastating wars fought between overpowers. As with all cosmic deities, balsareph cannot be encountered unless they are first awakened from their eternal slumber. An event of such magnitude would require immense power, and such an action would likely dramatically destabilize the bonds holding its diametrically opposed cosmic cellmate. Balsareph are some 7 feet tall, with an 21 foot wingspan, and weigh 14.08 metric tons (28,160 lbs.) due to their incredible density.

COMBAT

Balsareph were once the cosmic champions of the first choir and as such are awesome combatants. Assuming the opponent makes it past the balsareph’s splendrous visage ability, each of their six arms can act independently to either attack, cast spells, or use their light of the fallen. A balsareph’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields are treated as evil-aligned and epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Although a balseraph can bite someone, they prefer to use their more potent abilities. In the even that they do bite someone, they inflict damage as appropriate as well as poison similar to that of a pit fiend's.

Androgyne Ray (Su): Balsareph can project a ray of light which will cause the target to permanently change sex. The ray has a range of sight and there is no save for this effect.

Authority (Su): The voice of a balsareph is the voice of all leaders. Anyone hearing it is affected by rulership (as per a rod of epic rulership). Up to 1600 Hit Dice within a 7480 feet radius can be affected. Those with an Intelligence of 17 or greater can make a Will saving throw (DC 175) to negate the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Beautific Visage (Su): In addition to it's protective aura, a balsareph radiates an aura of beauty. All hostile targets within 7480 ft. radius of the angel must make a Will save (DC 175) each round or be charmed. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Cosmic String (Ex): Balsareph can only be permanently destroyed by a being of equal or greater stature to themselves. Otherwise they rejuvenate within 1d10 rounds.

Divine Fire (Su): Balsareph are wreathed in a brilliant violet flame tinged with blackness. This energy, also known as quintessence, or the fifth element deals divine fire damage. Anyone grappling with, or being struck by one of the balsareph’s natural weapons suffers an additional amount of divine fire damage equal to the base damage dice of the attack. If the balsareph scores a critical hit with its natural weaponry this damage is also doubled.

Divine Traits (Ex): Balsareph are effectively old ones and as such add a +32 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance.

Fallen Angelic Traits (First Choir):

• Hit Dice change to d100’s. Maximum hit points per die. Total hit points always doubled (regardless of where they are).

• Clairaudience/clairvoyance over the entire layer. As well as darkvision and low-light vision.

• Immunities: Ability damage or drain, acid, cold, disease, electricity, energy drain, fire, paralysis, petrification, poison, sleep, stunning and death from massive damage. They are immune to non-epic magic and all abjuration, conjuration, enchantment, illusion, necromantic and transmutation magic.

• Omnicompetent (Ex): Fallen angels of the first choir know all skills and have maximum ranks in each.

• Protective Aura (Su):This aura acts as an octuple strength magic circle against good (+16 deflection and +16 resistance bonuses) and a anti-magic field (that doesn’t impede your magic) for anyone within its area of effect. Both effects have a radius of 7480 ft. (caster level 209th). This aura can be dispelled (by epic magic), but the fallen angel can create it again as a free action on its next turn.

• Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will - astral projection, etherealness, greater teleport, plane shift, shapechange . Caster Level 177th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Infinity Halo (Su): This double halo of pure darkness represents the closed circle of energy. This allows balsareph to transcend the normal limitations of magic and as such can draw upon spells from any source, be they arcane, divine, druidic or even psionic.

Ray of Damnation (Su): The purpose of the balsareph is to convert the righteous to wickedness. To this end they can deliver a ranged touch attack with a range of 12,000 feet. Targets struck by this beam have their alignment changed to evil. There is no save for this ability, however, those beyond morality, such as beings with the apostasy power are immune.

Regeneration (Su): A balsareph takes normal damage from good-aligned artifacts, and from epic spells or effects with the good descriptor.

Slipstream (Su): Balsareph cannot be affected by temporal magic unless they so wish, neither can they be undermined by time travel.

Spell-like Abilities: At will - meteor swarm (DC 189), miracle, prismatic sphere (DC 189); 3/day - living fire* (DC 190), rain of fire (DC 190), 2/week - vengeful gaze of god (DC 190). Caster Level 209th. The save DC is Charisma-based. *As living lightning except fire instead of electrical damage.

Spells: As 88th-level Clerics (Caster Level 209th) with access to two of the following domains: Evil, Fire, and Sun. The save DCs are Wisdom based. 

Typical Cleric Spells Prepared (6/17/17/17/17/16/15/15/15/14; save DC 86 + spell level): Duplicates any 0-8th level divine spell or 0-7th level arcane spell using its miracle spell-like ability. 9th - gate (2), implosion, mass heal (6), storm of vengeance, summon monster IX (2), true resurrection (2). Epic spells per day: (24) 

Epic spells known: contingent resurrection, dreamscape, eidolon, epic counterspell, epic mage armor, epic repulsion, epic spell reflection, greater ruin, kinetic control, let go of me, living fire, mass frog, momento mori, nailed to the sky, peripety, rain of fire, raise island, safe time, soul dominion, soul scry, spell worm, superb dispelling, thrice unholy, time duplicate.

Splendrous Visage (Su):In addition to its protective aura, those who gaze upon a balsareph’s majestic brilliance may be destroyed utterly. Not for nothing are the balsareph known as angels of sin, for the very sight of them can overwhelm lesser opponents causing them to explode with rapture. Anyone within a 500 ft. radius of the fallen seraphim is instantly obliterated unless they currently have 88 Hit Dice or more. There is no saving throw for this affect. The balsareph can block this effect by using four of its wings to cloak itself, each wing used in this manner reduces the effect by 22 Hit Dice.

Summon Fallen Angel (Sp): Once per day a balsareph can summon one of the fallen cherubim or one fallen ophanim and all seven fallen kyriotates.

The Light of the Fallen (Su): Each hand of the balsareph can emit a line of divine fire dealing 88d100 damage (average 4488) up to a range of 480 feet. Targets can make a Reflex save (DC 180) for half damage. Each hand can emit this divine fire once every 1d3 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Unholy Messiah (Su): Balsareph cannot be harmed, either willingly or unwillingly, by any being of evil alignment unless it wields power akin to an elder one or above.

Virtual Size Categories: Balsareph possess seven virtual size categories.

Wrath of the Fallen (Su): Should they so desire, a balsareph's gaze can deal 88d100 divine fire damage (average 4488) to any targets within a radius of 240 feet. Victims appear to spontaneously combust. This power can be raised or lowered as a free action. Balsareph can use this power as an attack action, which opponents may face up to 2 times per round, once on their own action, and once on the fallen seraphim's action.


Possessions: Balsareph carry a Black Bible of Insidious Hypocrisy

BLACK BIBLE OF INSIDIOUS HYPOCRISY (MINOR ARTIFACT)

Description:These ancient scriptures hold the sum of all fallen angelic knowledge since before time began. Two massive violet gem encrusted black rods contain the knowledge which when pulled apart, bleeding diagrams and sigils appear in the space between the rods as if the symbols were written upon invisible vellum.

Powers: Any being opening the scroll, requiring two hands, knows the abilities, powers and weaknesses of any opponent that has ever been encountered or interacted with in any way by a fallen angel. In which case any enemy of the holder of the scroll gains a - 32 insight penalty on to its: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance equal to their Wisdom modifier. If the foe has never before been encountered by any fallen angel then no insight bonus is gained until a subsequent meeting between the two takes place. Should the fallen seraphim choose to use the scroll, it cannot make any slam attacks. The effects of this artifact is not included in its stat block.


----------



## dante58701

*I hate faULTY cOMPuTERS!!*

PLOP


----------



## dante58701

Imagine one of those crossed with an orichalcum golem. I could see such a circumstance arising if a fallen seraphim was on the verge of death and fused with an orichalcum golem as a last resort.You should make an abomination that was once a normal angel of some sort, but was forced by circumstances beyond it's control to fused with an orichalcum golem. Something pretty, but destructive. Female preferably, so few monsters out there are female. It strikes me as a bit sexist.


----------



## Kalitharus

Anything that has regeneration cannot have grafts, the grafts are forced out in favor of the supernatural body/limbs.


----------



## poilbrun

dante58701 said:
			
		

> Cosmic String (Ex): Fallen seraphim can only be permanently destroyed by a being of equal or greater stature to themselves. Otherwise they rejuvenate within 1d10 rounds.



How would this be handled? That kind of defeats the usual D&D paradigm of a party of 4 heroes defeating an enemy more powerful than themselves...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there Saerynishar! 



			
				Saerynishar said:
			
		

> I'll help you playtest if you're interested at all. I'm painfully new here, and lost what few posts I had when the boards went so zany, but I've been running various epic games for a while now, and have worked as a copy-editor in the past. As a side note, never work as a copy-editor. You take what work you can get, which means you're quickly trying to decide if "she touched his strong, manly chest" is a better phrase than "she ran her fingers down his strong, manly chest."




Thanks for the help.   

...and as someone with a strong, manly chest I can reveal that the latter does tickle more. 

Currently, it looks like the Pre-ordering will begin on Monday 5th June.

However I probably won't ship the Playtest document until Thursday of that week. The reasons being that... 

a) I have to get the cover painting done for the Pre-order release and thats going to take me the best part of this Saturday/Sunday to finish (by the way I have sketched it out and I think you will all love the illustration of Thrin vs. Apophis). 

b) This afternoon/evening I have to finalise the Bestiary and send it to the Printers, which involves some changes to the cover (product codes, bar codes, price, a spine etc.) and I want to double check all the text one last time just to be on the safe side.

Incidently the Epic Bestiary: Volume One should be on sale in September 2006.

So basically thats three days less time working on the text than I otherwise thought I would have, and obviously I want to have as much of the text finished as possible for the Playtesters to get their teeth into.

I can't simply delay the Pre-order past Monday 5th since I need to have at least some small amount of money entering my account by the 16th of June, otherwise I'll have to borrow yet more money and likely have to pass on the only local gaming convention of the year in Belfast (Q-Con) which runs from the 16th-18th June.

Early adopters will be able to Pre-order for $12.50. The final price will be between $13.50 and $13.95. The current build of the book I have is 200 pages, and that may rise to as many as 208 for the 'Gold' release*. So if you Pre-order you will be saving between 7.5-10%.

*Yes I am finally confident that it can go no higher than 208 pages.   

As a pricing guideline I have been thinking roughly 10 cents/page for the first 100 pages and 4 cents/page after that, and finally rounding down to the nearest .25/.50/.75/.95. Of course you don't count pages like the credits, table of contents and open game license as actual pages in this case. Does that seem fair/unfair to people?

So (given the 4 pages of credits, contents and OGL)
160 pages would be $11.95
192 pages would be $13.50
200 pages would be $13.75
208 pages would be $13.95


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Let me know if any of my math is wrong...I do hate making mistakes.




I am too busy to check math for you, but I will give it the 'once over'.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> I decided fallen seraphim in my campaigns




Firstly, a fallen Seraphim would be called a Balseraph (Anti-Seraphim)



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> would look like the mortals they seduce into evil.




Interesting.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> I also decided that in order for these few and very rare beings to stave off the numerous and potent forces of righteousness, they would have to be exceedingly powerful. Afterall, good creatures work well together, while evil turns in on itself in the most gruesome ways. As for their beauty. I though is would be fitting if a beautiful angel walked up, ripped out someones still beating heart and then ate it. Not all that is evil need be ugly. If you have any tips or suggestions, I would be most honored to have them.




My initial ideas would be to have them turn purple, and gain the Fiendish Creature Template. I assume there are either 7 Balseraph, or at least 7 beings of power equal to them who represent the 7 lower planes. Each could also be corrupted by one of the Seven Sins. Over the eons they could have been so corrupted that they would no longer be recognisable as Seraphim.

I think I used to have a list of the seven Old Ones of the lower planes somewhere. Off the top of my head, Erebus was one. I'll try and hunt down the list for later. I am sure I had it in front of me yesterday.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> ANGEL, FALLEN SERAPHIM




*SNIP*

What I would say is that your CR/ECL is wrong since I updated all the Bestiary CRs using the latest build of version 6.

Light of the Fallen may well be broken.

Also I don't think I would give them the Scrolls of Divine Holy Knowledge, although I suppose they could have corrupted it into the Black Bible of Insidious Hypocrisy which gives opponents a -32 insight penalty rather than a bonus to the Seraphim.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey poilbrun matey! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> How would this be handled? That kind of defeats the usual D&D paradigm of a party of 4 heroes defeating an enemy more powerful than themselves...




Well in my eyes a defeated being with the Cosmic String power would revert to its inert state (that of being a planar layer/plane/dimension). It could of course be reawakened/re-summoned again, but doing so requires a massive expenditure of energy.

Those no longer bound by planar geography would have to be imprisoned in some fashion before they rejuvenated...again requiring a massive expenditure of energy.


----------



## dante58701

Id like to keep the light of the fallen portion as well as the rest, perhaps a name change and a challenge rating increase. as for purple...purple is my favorite color, but I was more going for a fallen angel that doesnt llook like a fallen angel, at least not in the eyes of a mortal. What christian would ever think a purple angel is holy. As cool as it would look, it would kinda defy the point. This creature is designed for a campaign where christians...catholics primarily...are inherently corrupt and rely on visual cues to determine if some thing is holy or not. The name change... what is that anti seraphim term from, it sounds familiar.


----------



## dante58701

"Anything that has regeneration cannot have grafts, the grafts are forced out in favor of the supernatural body/limbs." - Kalitharus


This isn't entirely true, not all forms of regeneration are powerful enough to prevent certain things from being grafted. For example, mithril could be grafted to a creature that suffers lethal damage from mithril. Sure...it would hurt like , but thats kinda the point. Imagine a creature, whos regeneration was supernatural rather than extraordinary, caught in an antimagic field...they would have little if any options. Or lets say someone smart uses a sword that prevents regeneration, or someone smarter inflicts vile damage, which cannot be healed except upon holy ground. Lying there...dying and in pain...they might just accept the horific alternative and then seek vengeance. You severely limit yourself by thinking inside the box. Epic Level is anything but inside the box. It's inside the box, all over the box, and out the door. Anything is possible given the right circumstances.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Id like to keep the light of the fallen portion as well as the rest, perhaps a name change and a challenge rating increase. as for purple...purple is my favorite color, but I was more going for a fallen angel that doesnt llook like a fallen angel, at least not in the eyes of a mortal. What christian would ever think a purple angel is holy. As cool as it would look, it would kinda defy the point. This creature is designed for a campaign where christians...catholics primarily...are inherently corrupt and rely on visual cues to determine if some thing is holy or not. The name change... what is that anti seraphim term from, it sounds familiar.




Thinking about it though, what the heck is an Old One doing corrupting mortals in the first place!? These monsters should be embroiled in cosmic wars not tempting mortal paladins - we already have Succubi for that. I am not convinced the idea works. Mortals would be less than ants beneath a boot to such beings.


----------



## dante58701

Perhaps, but what if they sway entire worlds. Or fight unseen battles by swerving the clergy. Sure a succubi could do it, but why waste time trusting a subordinate to do something that you could do a billions times faster and a billion times better. Plus, whomever said that all supreme beings are all flash and pizazz, maybe there are a few, like those who fell from grace, that enjoy personally swaying favored followers of god, and subsequently entire nations, into ruin. The possibilities are endless. Imagine a succubi, if you will, limited by her limited imagination and abilities. She could seduce countless morons into evil and vice, but how many could dupe the mighty 60th level paladin, or the 100th level priest who swaggers  round full of holy godliness. Maybe the angel just enjoys screwing with mortals...gods do it all the time. Mortals are like chess pieces to gods...the fallen seraphim I envision would be the spoiled brat that comes along and knocks half the pieces off the board, while simultaneously luring the other half into damnation and ruin by tipping the balance of the board in his favor. Then the other angels would be distracted into fighting him, while his true agenda is being realized elsewhere in another universe.

I did consider some of your ideas though, as noted above...and I increased the time increment for the light of the fallen to once per 1d3 rounds rather than once per 1d2. I figured since there was a one half increase in the number of times they could do it in a round, then the waiting period should be likewise increased. I also made them a deep purple, beause I realized how stupid my argument was, they can disguise themselves as lesser angels. enabling them to lie more thoroughly. In case your wondering, I actually do use them for cosmic level battles. Often they fight adamic dragons. Who cannot stand their meddling.


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## dante58701

Sidenote....what would the child of a grigori (with their current outcast status) and a human be?

Here's a scary thought, an Amidah Flaga Mercury Guardian.

Virtually unstoppable, but I can think of a few ways that dont involve acid, cold, fire, magic, or psionics. The first idea, go back in time to when it was being created, then kill it's creator. If that fails, simply find a nifty abomination to dump it in.

Here's a cool website...http://kyia.com/Taeran_DnD3_Monster_Templates.html


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## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Firstly, a fallen Seraphim would be called a Balseraph (Anti-Seraphim)




That's wicked . . . really.



> Also I don't think I would give them the Scrolls of Divine Holy Knowledge, although I suppose they could have corrupted it into the Black Bible of Insidious Hypocrisy which gives opponents a -32 insight penalty rather than a bonus to the Seraphim.




That's equally coal.

I'm thinking this Artifact is even more powerful than the Seraphim's Artifact assuming it could stack!  

Can you imagine the 7 sins ganging up on one opponent?



> Well in my eyes a defeated being with the Cosmic String power would revert to its inert state (that of being a planar layer/plane/dimension). It could of course be reawakened/re-summoned again, but doing so requires a massive expenditure of energy.




Again, what you're describing is a wonderfully elegant solution that I'm embarrased I didn't think of sooner.


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## dante58701

I present...the Defiant One and the Mercurial Orichalcum Assassin. The best of both worlds and quite deadly. I guestimated the challenge rating. This one was fun.


ABOMINATION (God-Spawn)

These outcast progeny of the gods are born twixt an unholy union of the divine and the damned.

ABOMINATION TRAITS

• Ability Scores: Table A-1: Typical Abomination Statistics outlines the typical physical ability scores for abominations.

• Damage Reduction: Typically, abominations have damage reduction equal to half their Hit Dice (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5)

• Divine Traits: Abominations are effectively quasi-deities and as such add a +4 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance.

• Immunities: Abominations are immune to enchantment, illusionist and transmutation magic. They are not subject to energy drain, ability damage or drain.

• Special Qualities: Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage and have maximum hit points per Hit Die.

• Spell Resistance : Typically, abominations have spell resistance equal to 14 (base 10 + 4 divine bonus) plus their Hit Dice.

• Telepathy: Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1000 feet that has a language.

• Virtual Size Category: Most abominations have at least 15 points of strength beyond the average for creatures of that size and as such gain a Virtual Size Category.

BUILDING ABOMINATIONS

The following information, updates and expands upon page 157 of the Epic Level Handbook.

Fast Healing (Ex): Abominations may have fast healing up to half their total Hit Dice (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5).

Regeneration (Su): Abominations may also have regeneration equal to half their total Hit Dice (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5). Any regeneration will be negated by the same type of attacks that would overcome the abominations damage reduction (other than merely epic).

Natural Armor (Ex): Determine natural armor as follows:

• Amorphous/fluid body: Natural armor = size bonuses only.

• Skin/furred body: Natural armor = 1/4 HD + any bonuses for size.

• Scaly skin/exoskeleton: Natural armor = 1/2 HD + any bonuses for size. Treat Dexterity as if wearing medium armor.

• Carapace plated/mineral-like body: Natural Armor = HD + any bonuses for size. Treat Dexterity as if wearing heavy armor.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): All abominations possess spell-like abilities which are cast at a level equal to their Hit Dice + 4 (divine bonus).

Unique Abilities (Variable): All abominations have one or more unique abilities. See the Immortals Handbook: Apotheosis (Chapter Four: Abilities & Feats) for hundreds of possible powers.

TABLE A-1: TYPICAL ABOMINATION STATISTICS

Size 		Str 	Dex 	Con	# of HD
Fine 		24-25 	26-27 	8-9 	4-9
Diminutive 	24-25 	24-25 	12-13 	7-13
Tiny 		28-29 	22-23 	16-17 	10-21
Small 		32-33 	20-21 	20-21 	19-33
Medium 		34-35 	18-19 	24-25 	27-38
Large 		44-45 	16-17 	28-29 	36-50
Huge 		54-55 	14-15 	32-33 	47-58
Gargantuan 	64-65 	12-13 	36-37 	56-70
Colossal 		74-75 	10-11 	40-41 	67-78
Titanic 		84-85 	10 	44-45 	76-90

ABOMINATION CULTS

Each abomination entry includes details on possible cults. Clerics of abominations are granted up to 7th-level spells.

ABOMINATION, DEFIANT ONE
Defiant Mercurial Orichalcum Assassin
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 62d100+5120 (11,320 hp)
Initiative: +19 (+14 Dex, +4 Divine, +1 Haste, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 120 ft. (20 squares)
Armor Class: 233 (+14 Dex, +4 Divine, +1 Dodge, +214 natural), touch 29, flat-footed 224
Base Attack/Grapple: +46/+178
Attack: Slam +162 melee (120d10+128 plus poison and sharpness )
Full Attack:10 Slams (5 slams +162/+162/+157/+152/+147 melee (120d10+128 plus poison and sharpness) + 5 Slams +162/+162/+157/+152/+147 melee (120d10+128 plus poison and sharpness))
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Plasma beam, poison, sharpness, supernova
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction half/bludgeoning, damage reduction 100/-, darkvision 60 ft., find master, fast healing 100, guard, indissoluble, immunity to magic, legendary dexterity, low-light vision, omnicompetent, quickness, shield other, slip stream, spell resistance 76, spell storing, unearthly construction
Saves: Fort +31, Ref +36, Will +41
Abilities: Str 267 (+128), Dex 38, Con -, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18
Skills: Omnicompetant - All skills 65 + ability bonus
Feats: Ambidexterity, Dark Speech, Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Great Cleave, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Disarm, Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Improved Trip, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (slam), Whirlwind Attack
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 63-92 HD (Medium), 93-186 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

Named so for the first of it's kind. This automaton is humanoid in shape and the height of a tall man. It's fashioned from a deep black metal, it's exact origins are unknown to you. It's form is smooth, featureless and reflects the light as would a mirror, while it's eyes burn the deep crimson of blood. As you approach the creatures hands morph into long blades. It's movements are fast and fluid.

Most defiant ones are the forgotten mercurial orichalcum assassins, of wars fought between overgods millions of years in the past, that had slain enough gods to become divine themselves. Others are remnants of blasphemous magical experiments. Each fashioned in the guise of humanoids of the time, rules over it's lesser kindred with an orichalcum hand. Very few beings, even overdeities, possess both the knowledge and the power to create such powerful beings, and ironically that very knowledge is probably to be found in the lost ruins of the once flying cities of the ancients, likely guarded by the defiant ones themselves.

Defiant ones prefer to send in their lessers to handle trivial opponents. However, when faced with a worthy adversary, the defiant one is a relentless and uncompromising opponent, fast and decidedly deadly. The most astute of them will ward the areas they dwell in and those presided over by their lessers with spells inhibiting the use of acid, cold or fire based magic, their only true weaknesses. They are also well known for their shameless abuse of prisoners.

Defiant ones stand 7 feet tall and weigh 1,350,000 tons, their extremely high density gives them +15 Virtual Size Categories.

Defiant ones speak only when moved to do so.

COMBAT

Defiant ones are almost unstoppable foes, crushing all opposition with their fists and plasma beam attack.

Abomination Traits:

• Divine Traits: Abominations are effectively quasi-deities and as such add a +4 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance.

• Immunities: Abominations are immune to enchantment, illusionist and transmutation magic. They are not subject to energy drain, ability damage or drain.

• Special Qualities: Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage and have maximum hit points per Hit Die.

• Telepathy: Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1000 feet that has a language.

• Virtual Size Category: Most abominations have at least 15 points of strength beyond the average for creatures of that size and as such gain a Virtual Size Category. It should be noted that defiant ones have a total of 16 Virtual Size Categories due to their mercurial orichalcum construction.

Call Mercurial Orichalcum Assassin (Sp): Once per day a defiant one can “call” a mercurial orichalcum assassin to serve it for an indefinate period of time. The mercurial orichalcum assassin serve to the best of it's ability and defies all other attempts to control it.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Defiant ones take half damage from all attacks except those that deal bludgeoning or crushing damage.

Damage Reduction (Ex): The mercurial orichalcum composing a defiant one has a natural hardness of 100.

Fast Healing (Ex): The immense gravitational energy of the defiant one binds it together allowing it to naturally heal 100 hit points per round.

Immunity to Magic (Su): The defiant one is immune to all spells and spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance except as follows:

Acid-based attacks permanently damage the defiant one (though only deal half damage).

Cold-based attacks will disrupt the defiant one similar to physical attacks (though again only deal half damage). However, any cold damage requires an additional round to heal (see the Indissoluble ability). So if the defiant one was reduced to 0 or fewer hit points from cold damage alone, it would be incapacitated the rest of that round and all the next round. Cold-based damage does not work in tandem with fire for the purpose of incapacitating the defiant one.

Fire-based attacks will disrupt the defiant one similar to physical attacks (and likewise only deal half damage).

Indissoluble (Ex): The defiant one completely heals all damage (except acid based damage) at the end of every round, as if it had infinite regeneration. If reduced to 0 hit points (or less) by any means other than acid, the defiant one is not destroyed, but out of commission and incapacitated until the end of that round only. It starts the beginning of the next round with its full hit points. The defiant one cannot be destroyed by brute force, only delayed.

Legendary Dexterity (Ex): The defiant one's amazing agility is renowned. Their dexterity score is twice that of other abominations their size.

Omnicompetent (Ex): Defiant ones know all skills and have maximum ranks in each.

Plasma Beam (Su): As a free action, every 1d2 rounds, the defiant one can generate a beam of divine fire with an effective range of 17.5 miles. Targets struck by the beam suffer 62d100 (d100/Hit Dice of the defiant one) divine fire damage. This ability is a ranged touch effect.

Poison (Ex): Targets wounded by the defiant one must make a Fortitude save against poison (DC 22). Primary and secondary effect are 1 point of damage to each ability score.

Quickness (Su): The defiant one is supernaturally fast and should be treated as if constantly hasted. This gives it an extra attack when full attacking, a +1 bonus to attack rolls, a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Sharpness (Su): Any attack by the defiant one scoring a natural 20 (requiring a critical confirmation) will sever one of the opponents appendages. Roll randomly to determine which appendage is severed. For humanoids roll a d12: 1-2 head, 3-4 left arm, 5-6 right arm, 7-8 torso, 9-10 left leg, 11-12 right leg. Creatures with multiple heads, multiple limbs, tails or wings may add extra variables. Those creatures with appendages too thick to be severed

Slipstream (Su): Defiant ones cannot be affected by temporal magic unless they so wish, neither can they be undermined by time travel.

Spell Storing (Sp): A defiant one can store spells totalling 31 spell levels, cast into it by another creature or itself. It casts these spells whenever it desires to do so or when a pre-defined situation arises.

Supernova (Ex): The death throes of the defiant one result in a spectacular show of energy much akin to an atomic explosion. Table G-4: Defiant One Death Throes; outlines the damage. The blast effect should be treated as bludgeoning damage. The effect is roughly equivalent to 1 megaton of TNT.

TABLE G-4: DEFIANT ONE DEATH THROES

Radius 		Disintigration 	Fireball 	Blast 	Radiation*
1300 feet 		Fort DC 72 	        120d6 	180d6 	18
2300 feet 		- 		        120d6 	180d6 	18
1.75 miles 		- 		        - 	        180d6 	18
2.75 miles 		- 		        - 	        18d6 	         1
3.75 miles 		- 		        - 	        1d6 	         -

*Ability damage to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will – air walk, angry ache, animate dead, bestow greater curse, blasphemy, control weather, create greater undead, create undead, crushing fist of spite, curse of the putrid husk, dancing chains, damning darkness, darkbolt, darkness, death grimace, deeper darkness, demand, earthquake, eternity of torture, evard's black tentacles, evil weather, freedom, gate, greater teleport, grim revenge, hellball, imprisonment, let go of me, liquid pain, masochism, mindrape, plane shift, power word (any), pox, sadism, screen, shades, shadow walk, shapechange, shriveling, stoneshape, storm of vengeance, stop heart, symbol (any), telekinesis, thousand needles, unhallow, unholy aura, unholy blight, utterdark, wall of chains, wall of deadly chains, wall of force, wall of iron, wall of stone, water walk, wave of pain, wither limb, and wrack, 7/day - damnation, momento mori, and raise island. Level 66th; Save DC 45 + spell level.

Spells (Sp): Defiant ones cast spells as 31st-level Clerics (half their Hit Dice rounded down) with access to the domains of darkness and pain. Caster level 66th. The save DCs are Wisdom-based.

Unearthly Construction (Ex): These cosmic constructs use d100s for Hit Dice. Defiant ones also have maximum hit points per Hit Die.


Mercurial Orichalcum Assassin
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 62d100+5120 (11,320 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 60 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 213 (+5 Dex, +1 Dodge, +197 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 207
Base Attack/Grapple: +46/+162
Attack: Slam +162 melee (80d10+116 plus poison and sharpness )
Full Attack: 3 slams +162 melee (80d10+116 plus poison and sharpness )
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Plasma beam, poison, sharpness, supernova
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction half/bludgeoning, damage reduction 100/-, darkvision 60 ft., find master, fast healing 100, guard, indissoluble, immunity to magic, low-light vision, quickness, shield other, spell storing, unearthly construction
Saves: Fort +27, Ref +32, Will +27
Abilities: Str 242 (+116), Dex 21, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 75
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 63-92 HD (Medium), 93-186 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

This automaton is humanoid in shape and the height of a tall man. It's fashioned from a deep black metal, it's exact origins are unknown to you. It's form is smooth, featureless and reflects the light as would a mirror, while it's eyes burn the deep crimson of blood. As you approach the creatures hands morph into long blades. It's movements are fast and fluid.

Mercurial orichalcum assassins are created from the extremely dense material of a white dwarf star. Most remaining mercurial orichalcum assassins are the forgotten assassins of wars fought between overgods millions of years in the past. Each is fashioned in the guise of humanoids of the time. Very few beings, even deities, possess both the knowledge and the power to create such powerful servants. Ironically that very knowledge is probably to be found in the lost ruins of the once flying cities of the ancients, likely guarded by mercurial orichalcum assassin themselves.

The mercurial orichalcum assassin is a relentless and uncompromising opponent, fast and decidedly deadly. The most astute of creators will ward the area presided over by the mercurial orichalcum assassin with spells inhibiting the use of acid, cold or fire based magic, its only true weaknesses.


Mercurial orichalcum assassins stand 7 feet tall and weigh 1,350,000 tons, their extremely high density gives them +15 Virtual Size Categories.

Mercurial orichalcum assassins do not speak.

COMBAT

Mercurial orichalcum assassins are almost unstoppable foes, crushing all opposition with their fists and plasma beam attack.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Mercurial orichalcum assassins take half damage from all attacks except those that deal bludgeoning or crushing damage.

Damage Reduction (Ex): Mercurial orichalcum itself has a natural hardness of 100.

Fast Healing (Ex): The immense gravitational energy of the mercurial orichalcum assassin binds it together allowing it to naturally heal 100 hit points per round.

Find Master (Su): As long as the mercurial orichalcum assassin and the amulet are on the same plane, the assassin can find the amulet wearer.

Guard (Ex): All attacks against the amulet wearer are at -2 penalty when the mercurial orichalcum assassin is adjacent to its master.

Immunity to Magic (Su): The mercurial orichalcum assassin is immune to all spells and spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance except as follows:

Acid-based attacks permanently damage the mercurial orichalcum assassin (though only deal half damage).

Cold-based attacks will disrupt the mercurial orichalcum assassin similar to physical attacks (though again only deal half damage). However, any cold damage requires an additional round to heal (see the Indissoluble ability). So if the mercurial orichalcum assassin was reduced to 0 or fewer hit points from cold damage alone, it would be incapacitated the rest of that round and all the next round. Cold-based damage does not work in tandem with fire for the purpose of incapacitating the mercurial orichalcum assassin.

Fire-based attacks will disrupt the mercurial orichalcum assassin similar to physical attacks (and likewise only deal half damage).

Indissoluble (Ex): The mercurial orichalcum assassin completely heals all damage (except acid based damage) at the end of every round, as if it had infinite regeneration. If reduced to 0 hit points (or less) by any means other than acid, the mercurial orichalcum assassin is not destroyed, but out of commission and incapacitated until the end of that round only. It starts the beginning of the next round with its full hit points. The mercurial orichalcum assassin cannot be destroyed by brute force, only delayed.

Plasma Beam (Su): As a free action, every 1d2 rounds, the mercurial orichalcum assassin can generate a beam of divine fire with an effective range of 17.5 miles. Targets struck by the beam suffer 62d100 (d100/Hit Dice of the mercurial orichalcum assassin) divine fire damage. This ability is a ranged touch effect.

Poison (Ex): Targets wounded by the mercurial orichalcum assassin must make a Fortitude save against poison (DC 22). Primary and secondary effect are 1 point of damage to each ability score.

Quickness (Su): The mercurial orichalcum assassin is supernaturally fast and should be treated as if constantly hasted. This gives it an extra attack when full attacking, a +1 bonus to attack rolls, a +1 dodge bonus to AC and Reflex saves.

Sharpness (Su): Any attack by the mercurial orichalcum assassin scoring a natural 20 (requiring a critical confirmation) will sever one of the opponents appendages. Roll randomly to determine which appendage is severed. For humanoids roll a d12: 1-2 head, 3-4 left arm, 5-6 right arm, 7-8 torso, 9-10 left leg, 11-12 right leg. Creatures with multiple heads, multiple limbs, tails or wings may add extra variables. Those creatures with appendages too thick to be severed

Shield Other (Sp): The wearer of the amulet can activate this ability if within 250 feet of the mercurial orichalcum assassin.

Spell Storing (Sp): A mercurial orichalcum assassin can store spells totalling 31 spell levels, cast into it by another creature. It casts these spells when commanded to do so or when a pre-defined situation arises.

Supernova (Ex): The death throes of the mercurial orichalcum assassin result in a spectacular show of energy much akin to an atomic explosion. Table G-4: Mercurial Orichalcum Assassin Death Throes; outlines the damage. The blast effect should be treated as bludgeoning damage. The effect is roughly equivalent to 1 megaton of TNT.

TABLE G-4: MERCURIAL ORICHALCUM ASSASSIN DEATH THROES

Radius 		Disintigration 	Fireball 	Blast 	Radiation*
1300 feet 		Fort DC 72 	        120d6 	180d6 	18
2300 feet 		- 		        120d6 	180d6 	18
1.75 miles 		- 		        - 	         180d6 	18
2.75 miles 		- 		        - 	         18d6 	        1
3.75 miles 		- 		        - 	         1d6 	        -

*Ability damage to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.

Unearthly Construction (Ex): These cosmic constructs use d100s for Hit Dice. Mercurial orichalcum assassins also have maximum hit points per Hit Die.


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## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well in my eyes a defeated being with the Cosmic String power would revert to its inert state (that of being a planar layer/plane/dimension). It could of course be reawakened/re-summoned again, but doing so requires a massive expenditure of energy
> 
> Those no longer bound by planar geography would have to be imprisoned in some fashion before they rejuvenated...again requiring a massive expenditure of energy.



Well, seen that way, Cosmic String is an awesome power. I like the idea of the enemy tied to the planes in a way that he is virtually undefeatable.

A question though: what happens to the layer/plane/dimension when such a creature awakens? What happens when the creature really dies (because it is killed by an opponent of higher status)?


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## paradox42

poilbrun said:
			
		

> Well, seen that way, Cosmic String is an awesome power. I like the idea of the enemy tied to the planes in a way that he is virtually undefeatable.
> 
> A question though: what happens to the layer/plane/dimension when such a creature awakens? What happens when the creature really dies (because it is killed by an opponent of higher status)?



I agree with the above- I had thought that a Cosmic String monster would just plain pop back up and start wailing on its enemies again after 1d10 (or whatever) rounds, but this way is much cooler. Those questions are important to answer, doing it the "rejuvenation means merging with the plane" way.

Is this explained more fully in Ascension, where the Cosmic String power is listed?


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## Fieari

poilbrun said:
			
		

> Well, seen that way, Cosmic String is an awesome power. I like the idea of the enemy tied to the planes in a way that he is virtually undefeatable.
> 
> A question though: what happens to the layer/plane/dimension when such a creature awakens? What happens when the creature really dies (because it is killed by an opponent of higher status)?



Hrm... I'm suddenly getting a vision of Thieves and Kings, with regards to Cespinarve Rogue.  In the comic, he's a runty mountain wyrm (a dragon litterally the size of a mountain) that after being told off by a high-epic level thief, stops eatting cities (swallow whole) and actually does some heroic things like fighting off some really nasty demon-like things.  Although he wins, he does get poisoned in the process, sending him into an ages long sleep... during which time, mages and sorcerers use his dream as a world to visit and manipulate for their own causes.

Sounds a LOT like Cosmic String here...

At anyrate, to get to my point, when Cespinarve is finally woken up, the dreamworld vanishes, and all the "matter" within it utterly vanishes, and all the souls within it are either sent back to their bodies in their original worlds, or in the cases in which said bodies have died already, go to their respective eternal destinations.


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## dante58701

I love the idea too. It means that villians can come back at pivotal points in the game. Time and time again the foul can arise from their own bones and slaughter pcs again and again. Cosmic threats that linger even after they are trapped, influencing the weak willed while so trapped. Possessing mortals and sundering them in an effort to be free once more. Id imagine plots could develope around freeing these horrors. Or even plots where, if one destroys the being and it's dimension with it, one becomes a god and can create their own hell.


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## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Apologies for my sloth, I got into a flap about Hordes of the Abyss and I felt compelled to lay the smackdown over in the General Discussion forums this afternoon. 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Well, seen that way, Cosmic String is an awesome power. I like the idea of the enemy tied to the planes in a way that he is virtually undefeatable.




Glad you guys like the Cosmic String idea, I think it makes for a cool cosmic nemesis or recurring villain.



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> A question though: what happens to the layer/plane/dimension when such a creature awakens?




Technically nothing, remember its just a sentient manifestation. 

However, if you were on the layer at the time you could possibly be shunted into another. Any such being will have the ability to expel you from itself. 

If you were on its layer when it awoke, its face could look like the sky, or the ground (as with Ojukalazogadit).

From the outside it may only look Macro-Diminutive (or whatever), but from the inside it would still be technically infinite)



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> What happens when the creature really dies (because it is killed by an opponent of higher status)?




I think the layer/plane would start to shrink/break-up, or in some fashion destroy itself.

I remember an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation, where Wesley Crusher created a Warp Bubble which Doctor Crusher (his mum) got trapped within, but she didn't notice it because it was like a duplicate universe. Anyway, in the warp bubble (where shes still on a duplicate Enterprise) the crew sporadically began to disappear and no one remembered them, as if they were erased from reality. Not only were people dsiappearing, but also the entire universe was contracting (because the warp bubble was decaying). The Doctor kept asking the computer how big the universe was and kept getting a different answer until the universe was the size of the Enterprise.

Anyway, very cool episode, well worth checking out.

So thats basically how I would interpret planar death. The whole area will start to contract. This could manifest in different ways for different planes, perhaps if you killed the Old One who represents gluttony it might look like the plane was starting to eat itself.

Anyone who couldn't escape would be destroyed, being erased from reality. Also the same thing would happen if you were caught by the 'tidal wave' of destruction).

The only thing I am unsure of is exactly how fast it would contract. Maybe 1 second for every hit point the plane-being originally had. Which would probably give you a few hours.


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## dante58701

*writers block...assistance anyone?*

ABOMINATION, HOL'EIN (Hollow One)
Medium Outsider (Abomination, Evil, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 35d8+700 (985 hp)
Initiative: +22 (+14 Dex, +4 Divine, +4 Improved Initiative)
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Armor Class: 71 (+10 Dex, +4 divine, +22 natural, +25 deflection), touch , flat-footed 
Base Attack/Grapple: +35/+69
Attack: Slam +69 melee (4d6+39/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 slams +69 melee (4d6+39/19-20) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Air mastery, breath weapon, dimensional folding, divine electricity, improved grab, spell-like abilities, strangle, weakness gaze
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, cold immunity, construct traits, damage reduction 15/epic and good, electricity immunity, fast healing, fear aura, fire immunity, internal limbo, legendary constitution, legendary dexterity, legendary strength, outsider traits, regeneration 15, scion of storms, slipstream, sonic immunity, spell resistance 49
Saves: Fort +, Ref +, Will +
Abilities: Str 70, Dex 30, Con 66, Int 60, Wis 60, Cha 60
Skills: 
Feats: Improved Critical (Slam),Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (Slam), Weapon Focus (Slam)
Environment: Any lower plane or the material plane.
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 36-70 HD (Medium), 70+ HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: ?

Abomination Traits:

• Divine Traits: Abominations are effectively quasi-deities and as such add a +4 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance.

• Immunities: Abominations are immune to enchantment, illusionist and transmutation magic. They are not subject to energy drain, ability damage or drain.

• Special Qualities: Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage and have maximum hit points per Hit Die.

• Telepathy: Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1000 feet that has a language.

• Virtual Size Category: Most abominations have at least 15 points of strength beyond the average for creatures of that size and as such gain a Virtual Size Category.

Air Mastery (Ex): Airborne creatures take a -4 penalty on attack and damage rolls against a hol'ein

Breath Weapon (Su): The hol'ein can inhale with supernatural force, creating a cone of vacuum 60 ft. long capable of sucking targets into the demiplane that acts as its stomach. Those caught within the area of effect must succeed at either a Reflex save (DC 59) or a strength check (DC 59) to avoid being devoured. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Dimensional Folding (Su): Using its breath weapon the hol'ein can swallow creatures of any size, even those larger than itself.

Distasteful (Su): Any creature that bites or eats any part of a hol'ein must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 59) or be forced to vomit or regurgitate the monster in the subsequent round, during which it can take no other actions.

Construct Traits: Inspite of being very much alive, these artificially created abominations possess traits almost identical to those of a construct. Immune to mind-affecting effects and to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, necromantic effects, any effect that requires a fortitude save unless it also works on objects. Can heal damage and can be repaired. Not subject to critical hits, subdual damage, ability drain or energy drain. Not at risk of death from massive damage, but destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points or less; cannot be raised or resurrected. Darkvision 60ft. They do not, however, gain any bonus hit points based upon their size and dopossess a constitution score.

Divine Electricity (Su): Anyone grappling with, or being struck by one of the hol'ein’s natural weapons suffers an additional amount of divine electricity damage equal to the base damage dice of the attack. If the hol'ein scores a critical hit with its natural weaponry this damage is also doubled. Half of ths damage is electricity and the other half divine power and is therefore not subject to reduction by protection from energy (electricity) or similar magic. be raised or resurrected.

Fear Aura (Su): Hol'ein can radiate a 35-foot radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a Will save (DC 56) or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 39th). A creature that saves cannot be affected by the same hol'ein’s aura for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma based.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the hol'ein must hit with a slam attack. It can then attempt to grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can begin to strangle.

Internal Limbo (Ex): The interior of the hol'ein is actually larger than the exterior would suggest. Those consumed by the hol'ein find themselves not in the creatures digestive tract, but rather on a dismal demiplane that vaguely resembles an endless thundering wasteland that frequently hit by deadly lightning, powerful winds, torrential rains, none of which the hol'ein has control over without using it's other abilities. Beings with the ability to gate or planeshift can escape, all others are marooned until rescued. Teleport spells function within the hol'ein, but you cannot teleport out. The more the hol'ein eats the larger the demiplane becomes, some may even have communities composed of stalwart survivors. Should the hol'ein be destroyed, the demiplane within collapses and its contents are forever lost. The hol'ein exists simultaneously outside this demiplane and inside thisdemiplane. The other self of the hol'ein that exists within this demiplane can use it's breath weapon to set other free, it serves as a doorway between the two dimensions, the one the hol'ein is in and the internal limbo that exists within the hol'ein. Damage upon either self is suffered by the other self. Similarly all else is also so affected. For one is merely an extension of the other.

Legendary Constitution (Ex): The hol'ein's prodigious stamina is renowned. Their constitution score is twice that of other abominations their size.

Legendary Dexterity (Ex): The hol'ein's amazing agility is renowned. Their dexterity score is twice that of other abominations their size.

Legendary Strength (Ex): The hol'ein's strength is the stuff of legend. Their strength score is twice that of other abominations their size, and as a result gain +4 Virtual Size Categories.

Outsider Traits: Hol'ein have darkvison (60 foot range). They cannot be raised or resurrected.

Regeneration (Su): A hol'ein takes normal damage from weapons that are both cursed and epic.

Scion of Storms (Su): Any storm based attacks dealt by the hol'ein (whether from its spell-like abilities or tempest of vengeance ability) have half their damage treated as divine energy.

Slipstream (Su): Hol'ein cannot be affected by temporal magic unless they so wish, neither can they be undermined by time travel.

Spell-like Abilities (Su): At will – Any and all non-epic spells (one per round, unless feats, ect. would allow otherwise) with the following descriptors: air, cold, darkness, divination, earth, electricity, evil, fire, force, mind-affecting, shadow, and sonic, and/or from the following domains: Air, Cold, Corruption, Darkness, Death, Earth, Fire, Pain, Repose, Sand, Summer, Thirst, Time, Weather, and Winter and/or from the following schools of magic: divination, evocation, illusion, necromancy, and transmutation .  Caster Level 39th; Save DC 56 + spell level.

Strangle (Ex): If the hol'ein strikes the same target with two slam attacks it can attempt a strangle, provided the target is no more than one size category larger than the hol'ein. This is akin to drowning although the initial Fortitude save (DC 63) increases by 1 each round the hol'ein tightens its grip. The victim also suffers 6d6+20+6d6 (electricity) per round.

Weakness Gaze (Su): When the hol'ein desires, 3d10 Strength drain, 30 feet, Fortitude save (DC 56) negates. The save DC is Charisma-based. Those creatures otherwise immune to ability damage/drain, still suffer half the effect if they fail their saving throw.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Look, just stop.  When you take a bunch of interesting, thematically coherent epic monsters and glom them together, you don't get more awesome, all you get is a mess.  Higher numbers doesn't mean more cool.


----------



## dante58701

Feel free to adjust, modify this however you see fit. I like the basic idea, but Im at a loss as to how to continue. Ive got a creative block that wont go away. Essentially they are hollow, quite human looking, and disturing to say the least. They exist within themselves and have a plethora of spell-like abilities. The suck their victims in only to torment them eternally. Then they spit them up as undead. The spell-like abilities are fairly close to their selection. I figure them having them all, but Im too lazy to write all the spell-like. They have strong ties to all the horrid aspect of the wastelands. They are intended to be empty husks filled with more emptyness than anyone could ever imagine.


----------



## Sledge

UK, I think that the recent server crash may have reverted your version of Bestiary to 1.2  Might want to reupload the current version.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Sledge matey! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> UK, I think that the recent server crash may have reverted your version of Bestiary to 1.2  Might want to reupload the current version.




I just double checked and you were right.

I have changed it back to 1.5.

Anyone who bought the Bestiary from ENWorld this past month should go back and redownload.

Thanks Sledge mate!


----------



## Sledge

Heh, I only noticed because the shelf told me it was "updated" so I dl'd to see.   Thanks for fixing it.


----------



## dante58701

Cool beaners, got the update, thanks krusty. Side note...my campaign has a huge problem. There's an artifact in our campaign that is so blasphemous that it turns any mortal who is foolish enough to touch it...into an abomination, permanently. The problem is this...it turns them into an abomination that still looks entirely human in it's true form. This is of course quite deceptive. And the abomination itself is meant to be quite deceptive. It's suppossed to be Maskim related and it is suppossed to be sorcerous in nature. With a great deal of magical abilities. A true horror that shames even the greatest infernals. 

Can anyone help?


----------



## CRGreathouse

I'm curious about your wording and your world dynamics.  I don't know what kind of campaign you run, but I have to imagine this would bring the world to a halt.  If the greatest infernals are dwarfed in power by what a commoner can become with a touch, surely the world will be destroyed in short order.  What are the most powerful entities on your world (or Material Plane)?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

An evil artifact that turns people into abominations? Definitly, under no circumstances are you to play "Hot Potato" in the local tavern. 
To get rid of the thing? If I were the party mage, and epic, I would craft an epic spell that would shunt the artifact out of 3 dimentional space into 2 dimentional space. Maybe using the seeds for Transport, to move it, and Afflict to penalize it one spacial Dimention? That should make it Impossible for most people to touch it. Now throw a Dimentional Anchor on it and a Permenency, and it *should* be safe for quite some time, at least until the archvillain comes and takes it.
Or you could throw it in a lead box, and put that box in another, magical-trap filled lead box, and bury them. Lead blocks most Divinations.
Otherwise, I dunno. Best bet barring the above options: find it's method of destruction.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Or you could throw it in a lead box, and put that box in another, magical-trap filled lead box, and bury them. Lead blocks most Divinations.




'Then, said Glorfindel, 'let us cast it into the deeps, and so make the lies of Saruman come true. For it is clear now that even at the Council his feet were already on a crooked path. He knew that the Ring was not lost for ever, but wished us to think so; for he began to lust for it for himself. Yet oft in lies truth is hidden: in the Sea it would be safe.'


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

Does anyone know about FTP uploading? I have never done this before and its the publishers preference for having me send them the files for the print version.

Its not a big deal, since I can email them as an alternative, however, it may be tricky when it comes to larger files such as the cover.

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey guys!
> 
> Does anyone know about FTP uploading? I have never done this before and its the publishers preference for having me send them the files for the print version.
> 
> Its not a big deal, since I can email them as an alternative, however, it may be tricky when it comes to larger files such as the cover.
> 
> Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.




There's not much to it.  There are a lot of applications out there that can do FTP uploading -- either web browsers (Internet Explorer or Firefox's FireFTP, to name but two) or FTP-only applications, like Core FTP.  Most of these are just click-and-drag: paste in the address, type in a login name and password, drag the file into the application's window, and release.

I can help you with specific issues, if you'd like.


----------



## dante58701

The most powerful creatures in my campaigns are gods. Albeit they run anywhere from divine rank 0 to divine rank 100, but they do walk the face of the earth in my campaigns. As they once did in ancient times in other campaign worlds. They talk about that a lot in other campaigns...how the gods walked the earth and taught man this and taught man that. Blah blah blah. But in my campaigns it isnt just talk...its actually occuring. The gods each rule a section of the earth. Mortals battle for their amusement or for honor. Abominations trample nations. Resurrections are common. Angels and fiends fight in the heavens and on earth for dominance. Elemental forces wreak havok when their anger is aroused. Essentially, its a very powerful world. Any why do these cosmic forces fight over this planet and its creations. Simple..each cosmic being has it's own reasons. For the most part cosmic beings cancel each other out, but mortals are the ones who can tip the scales...since being considered insignificant, they are often times overlooked. Most battle between cosmic entities occur in vast deserts and wastelands. The planet itself is large enough to be a galaxy and is in itself a cosmic entity. As for the item, there is but one item that creates abominations. It is secretly a cosmic entity that loves to meddle. Epic scale wars rock the world in some places...while in other places there is peace for eons. It really depends. I call the world...Ovaterra. From the latin words for egg and earth. For a new world shall one day be born from the old. And that world will become earth.


----------



## Anabstercorian

I don't think your setting is terribly well thought out.


----------



## Pssthpok




----------



## dante58701

It's actually been ongoing for years. And with the ultimate rule of "DM is GOD!!!" it actually remains balanced. I just dont let things get out of hand. No matter how tough pcs get, there is always someone more powerful. I just dont introduce all the nasty beasties right off the bat. It's not like a first level cleric is going to interact with a balor or worse. And even if they did, it wouldnt last very long. Either the cleric gets killed...for being too nosy...or an angel rescues the poor cleric. But traditionally, low level characters rarely interact with higher level characters. It just doesnt happen. I think you just seriously lack any real imagination when it comes to the plausibility of such a world. It would all depend upon the DM and the players. For some people such a scenario would be over the top. For others, it might just work. To each their own, for there is a fantasy in the mind of every gamer...and this one just so happens to be mine. The world is quite vast...the size of a galaxy. Which would propably make it a macrobe planet or something similar. This would make it easier for such things to occur on a realistic basis. Not that anyone is going for realistic. Afterall...humans...realistically...do not shoot fireballs out of their asses. I think some of you ...not all of you..just some....seriously limit yourselves when it comes to epic material. Ive always believed that there should only be limits if the DM and the players are incapable of handling epic scenarios with a level of decency and maturity. Ive actually had players play gods before, without any campaign disruption. And I was able to provide challenges for them. And the reason I could provide challenges for them was simple. None of them were rules nazis or power gamers. The DM always had the final say in everything. The only time such campaigns are unbalanced...would be if the pcs and the monsters the pcs interacted with were not on par with one another or at least close. For example...a world populated by ophanim angels would be balanced if the villians were equal or close in power. Or if there were fewer villians and the villians were only slightly more powerful. If the DM loses control of his campaign it is only because the players have no respect for the DM. this either means a bad DM...or the DM is playing with a bunch of pricks. In every campaign Ive had..the players were either respectful....or if I gamed with a different group than normal...it varied from respectful to disrespectful. Disrespectful players have no business playing. I would imagine since you have no real respect for varying epic campaign ideas...you must be the disrespectful sort. And as such..you would never be allowed in any of my campaigns. My advice for the future...dont knock ideas that could conceivably work. Just because they wont work for you...doesnt mean they dont work. And dont bother trying to pick apart this statement because to do so would simply prove your immaturity. So just save the rude commentary for people who deserve it and try to be more respectful of the ideas of others.
I dont knock your ideas...so dont knock mine. It makes you look very childish.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> There's not much to it.  There are a lot of applications out there that can do FTP uploading -- either web browsers (Internet Explorer or Firefox's FireFTP, to name but two) or FTP-only applications, like Core FTP.  Most of these are just click-and-drag: paste in the address, type in a login name and password, drag the file into the application's window, and release.
> 
> I can help you with specific issues, if you'd like.




Well I have Internet Explorer. So how do I get from that to the part where I can click-and-drag; paste address; type in login name and password etc. I can't seem to find anything to do with ftp via IM. 

I also just noticed there is an FTP Manager in the Control Panel of my website.

*FTP Accounts*
With the FTP account utility you can control FTP accounts for your users or if your account has sub-domain support you can add FTP accounts for your sub-domain(s).

*Setup Anonymous FTP Access*
Here you can change how anonymous FTP users should be treated and change the anonymous upload policy as well.

*Anonymous FTP Message*
You can edit the anonymous FTP welcome message that users will see when they login to your FTP site.

*FTP Session Control*
This utility allows you to disconnect users or time out FTP sessions. 

But it all looks double-dutch to me.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

I don't want any nastiness in this thread, so keep things civil everyone.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> The most powerful creatures in my campaigns are gods. Albeit they run anywhere from divine rank 0 to divine rank 100, but they do walk the face of the earth in my campaigns. As they once did in ancient times in other campaign worlds. They talk about that a lot in other campaigns...how the gods walked the earth and taught man this and taught man that. Blah blah blah. But in my campaigns it isnt just talk...its actually occuring. The gods each rule a section of the earth. Mortals battle for their amusement or for honor. Abominations trample nations. Resurrections are common. Angels and fiends fight in the heavens and on earth for dominance. Elemental forces wreak havok when their anger is aroused. Essentially, its a very powerful world. Any why do these cosmic forces fight over this planet and its creations. Simple..each cosmic being has it's own reasons. For the most part cosmic beings cancel each other out, but mortals are the ones who can tip the scales...since being considered insignificant, they are often times overlooked. Most battle between cosmic entities occur in vast deserts and wastelands. The planet itself is large enough to be a galaxy and is in itself a cosmic entity. As for the item, there is but one item that creates abominations. It is secretly a cosmic entity that loves to meddle. Epic scale wars rock the world in some places...while in other places there is peace for eons. It really depends. I call the world...Ovaterra. From the latin words for egg and earth. For a new world shall one day be born from the old. And that world will become earth.




I actually think it sounds cool, if a tad over the top (planet large enough to be a galaxy!).

You might want to check out a comicbook miniseries called Godwheel, which (if I remember correctly) had a slightly similar setting and premise, a resurrected Overgod was getting weaker and needed to find some ancient artifacts to maintain his power. The Godwheel was this massive flat 'world' as big as a solar system with a sun at the centre. I always thought the idea had a lot of potential.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/godwheeleventuv.htm

Theres also the story of the Octessence, which you could find interesting and useful.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/exemplar.htm

Personally, I'd shy away from having Divine Rank 100 (ie. Time Lords) involved in a mere galactic matter. I probably would go much beyond an Old One (Divine Rank 32) as the 'planet' itself.


----------



## Verequus

Hi U_K!

I may be able to help you with your FTP problem. If you would turn your IM on, we could talk about this easier.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Here's a quick step by step, U_K.  It's really not hard, but this should either explain it all, or at least make clear where your problems are.

First, type the FTP address into the address bar.  This should start with "ftp://".  Now there may be a popup that says you're not logged in (picture #1), but if that is the case just click "OK" and choose "Logon" from the File menu (picture #2).

Now you should be at the login screen (picture #3).  Type in the username and password.  These should have been given to you already; contact the appropriate people if you don't have them.

After logging in, you should see a screen like in picture #4.  Drag files from My Computer, Windows Explorer, your Desktop, or something similar.  These should upload automatically, warning you if they're overwriting an existing file.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Okay, just wanted to say I got the ftp thing sorted. I now feel ashamed because it was SOOOO easy, I was kicking myself after I did it.   

Thanks very much CRGreathouse dude (and I appreciate the offer Rulemaster matey). 

On other matters, the cover should be finished sometime tomorrow (and as soon as thats ready I'll start the pre-ordering). I just noticed (and I know no one will believe me but I swear its the truth) that I must have subconsciously been channeling the original D&D Immortals box cover (even though I don't own it and haven't seen that cover in over a decade) when I created my own.   

Anyway, you'll all get to see it tomorrow.


----------



## Fieari

Hey Krust.  With the pre-order thing, I've scheduled with my a group a playtesting session for a little later this week.  The current plan is to basically do an almost pure combat playtest thing, running them through Alabaster's tournament, starting at Hero-Deity level, and moving up in power after every round, and each round will use your CR ver5 document, for equal EL (sometimes multiple weaker monsters, sometimes single stronger ones).

We'll then record our experiences and send them your way.  I'm pretty sure that the balance will be perfect, as usual, but this way, we should have a chance to test out just about every rule in the book, and we'll catch anything difficult to understand or whatever.


----------



## Kavon

Hey U_K 

Glad to hear things are developing steadily now 

Of course I'll also be one of the people who'll want to get their hands on that beta release of Ascension 


Now that my finals are over, I can finally focus on some other things for a bit, such as developing my campaign world a bit more again :B


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

I love the tournament idea.
My group doesn't meet until friday/saturday, so I'd just do editing/proofreading until then. I think I would roll up a variety of Immortals to see if there is anything overpowered (in context), and later give them to my group to testplay later that week.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> On other matters, the cover should be finished sometime tomorrow (and as soon as thats ready I'll start the pre-ordering). I just noticed (and I know no one will believe me but I swear its the truth) that I must have subconsciously been channeling the original D&D Immortals box cover (even though I don't own it and haven't seen that cover in over a decade) when I created my own.
> 
> Anyway, you'll all get to see it tomorrow.




Excellent, please put me on the list!


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> On other matters, the cover should be finished sometime tomorrow (and as soon as thats ready I'll start the pre-ordering). I just noticed (and I know no one will believe me but I swear its the truth) that I must have subconsciously been channeling the original D&D Immortals box cover (even though I don't own it and haven't seen that cover in over a decade) when I created my own.
> 
> Anyway, you'll all get to see it tomorrow.




I#m more than a little excited by this.  I was pondering an epic sub-game in my current setting, with players playing ancient heroes whose events reveal certain parts of the backstory: but I'd rather do it with your own fine system.  Even though I've only reached ECL 10 after almost two years of weekly games, I'm gonna jump all over Ascension.  

I appreciate that a properly formatted book may takea  little longer, but despite the great board wipe of the whole affair I'm kinda curious to see what will come of the whole discussion re: the font of the Immortals Handbook.  Your own website notes the polls that took place, but of course the polls themselves were washed away.  I'm curious to see how the books look, though of course my primary concern remaiuns with how they play.


----------



## dante58701

I like civility...it makes things less barbaric.    As for ascension, Im just dying to get my hands on that archive.  As for the galaxy sized world...it's actually smack dead center in the multiverse. It's essentially where timelord equivalent gods go to relax and experiment. In fact...the whole of the world is their experiment. Not that anyone less powerful than an old one is even aware of this...those uber powers more or less just sit back and watch the world like its a big tv show. Then when they see something they dont like...they fire the cast (the old ones) and hire new ones. All the while, all lesser beings are essentially left in the dark about the truth. When these uber timelord types finally make a creature they like, they recreate it on another more mundane world. Of course fitting it in with that worlds evolution. As for the old ones...they suspect something greater than them is meddling with things on a subtle level...but they cant quite figure it out. The world isnt flat though, its actually egg shaped. More out of the uber being's twisted sens of humor than for any other reason. There are six massive moons and 6 massive stars...all of which float around the world. The moons are the repositories for failed experiments that could be learned from. The stars are the incinerators that get fed the crap experiments that have no potential. The world is also hollow and has similar moons and stars inside. Although these serve to maintain the worlds gravity and internal temperature. Of course you have to travel through crust and mantle that could in themselves serve as minor dimensions. The whole of this campaign world is kinda like a mini multiverse of sorts. Adventures ranging from common to epic can occur here. Souls from this place are simply reincarnated...or if unlucky...eaten by fiends.


----------



## Pssthpok

Any news on pre-ordering?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Any news on pre-ordering?




As of 7.00 pm (my time Tuesday) the painting is 75%+ complete. My guess is I probably won't get it finished tonight. But worst case scenario the painting will be ready before tomorrow lunchtime.

Just so theres no confusion, as I mentioned last week, I still want another few days (beyond the start of the pre-ordering) working on the Playtest document before I will be releasing that (likely this weekend).

Thanks for all the continued support.


----------



## dante58701

The four horseman...are these going to be the four horseman of the apocalypse...or just four horseman who have claimed such titles. And what of the angel of death...what would the angel of death be? Or even death itself?


----------



## Kalitharus

The best rendition of the Four Horsemen in RPG's is the book Rifts: Africa. Yeah it's not D+D, but it's still impressive write-ups.


----------



## -Eä-

Hi!

It's been quite a while since I last roamed this forum, but nevertheless...


I'd love to pre-order if that's an option (-:

Not sure if I will do any playtesting: we're doing a War of the Spider Queen Campaign this summer, which is quite low-level compared to the stuff in Ascension, but I will of course give my opinion on the material and such when I've read it.


----------



## historian

> And what of the angel of death...what would the angel of death be? Or even death itself?




Death (of the Four Horseman) is referenced under the Daemon section in the Bestiary.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 



			
				Kalitharus said:
			
		

> The best rendition of the Four Horsemen in RPG's is the book Rifts: Africa. Yeah it's not D+D, but it's still impressive write-ups.




Totally agree...best rendition so far that is...until the Epic Bestiary Volume 2 is released of course. 

Okay, the cover is 99.9% finished, I just have a problem with the lighting on Thrin's breastplate (so I came online to check some armour images) and then its done. Say 10 minutes to complete, 10 more for scanning (2 parts) and maybe 30-40 minutes on photoshop piecing the two halves together and making sure there are no obvious join marks.

Then hopefully less than an hour to set up ENWorld Shop for the whole pre-order thing.

I'll update my website, and comeback here and let everyone know, as soon as everything is ready. Don't jump the gun by stalking ENWorld Shops Eternity Publishing page, because I don't want anyone pre-ordering until I am sure its set-up correctly. Better safe than sorry. So just wait until I announce it here or on my website.


----------



## paradox42

[Burns]*EEEExxcellent.*[/Burns] (rubbing hands gleefully)


----------



## Pssthpok

So stoked! You're on the home stretch, Uncle Krusty!


----------



## historian

Sweet!


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay, the cover is 99.9% finished, I just have a problem with the lighting on Thrin's breastplate (so I came online to check some armour images) and then its done. Say 10 minutes to complete, 10 more for scanning (2 parts) and maybe 30-40 minutes on photoshop piecing the two halves together and making sure there are no obvious join marks.




99.9% finished, but you still have 50-60 minutes until it's done.  Does that mean it took 850 hours to draw in the first place?  

In any case, I'm glad you're progressing.


----------



## Alzrius

So...how soon after pre-ordering is available will advanced copies be sent to editors, et al? I'm asking purely for intellectual curiosity, of course.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Alzrius said:
			
		

> So...how soon after pre-ordering is available will advanced copies be sent to editors, et al? I'm asking purely for intellectual curiosity, of course.




I told Christian Janke I hoped it would come before my birthday (October).  I've been disappointed with that same guess in the past, but this could be the year.


----------



## Fieari

Are we going to have a race to see who can pre-order first?


----------



## Twin Rose

The Immortals Handbook: Ascension is only available for PRE-ORDER here at the EN World GameStore now!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Okay pre-ordering is now available, and everything should be working fine.

http://www.enworld.org/shop/index.php?do=publisher&publisher_id=84

http://shop.enworld.org/index.php?productsid=846&source=ImmortalsHandbook

I should note that there are no previews or contents pages up yet (so if you click on those you will only get the cover), but I will attend to the previews in a few days or so.

Playtest documents will be sorted in a few days time.

Let me know what you think of the cover in terms of layout and illustration.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Chris! 



			
				Twin Rose said:
			
		

> The Immortals Handbook: Ascension is only available for PRE-ORDER here at the EN World GameStore now!




I'll teach you to steal my thunder mortal!


----------



## Pssthpok

Maybe I missed something... I know I pre-ordered, but I get nothing when I click download. Is that what's supposed to happen, or is something wrong? Does pre-order mean 'pre-pay', i.e. pay now, but wait for the product?


----------



## paradox42

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Maybe I missed something... I know I pre-ordered, but I get nothing when I click download. Is that what's supposed to happen, or is something wrong? Does pre-order mean 'pre-pay', i.e. pay now, but wait for the product?



That's how I read things, at the store and here in the thread. This seems basically to be a way to raise cash to get the product out the door. We'll be able to download it as soon as something is actually loaded into the "slot" the GameStore is holding for the file. I, myself, got a transaction error to my chagrin; I emailed the store about it and will hopefully get things sorted out soon.

Cover's very nice BTW- what's the dragon he's going after, is that Apep (or an amazing Apep-like substance)?


----------



## paradox42

Fieari said:
			
		

> Are we going to have a race to see who can pre-order first?



Looks like Pssthpok won...


----------



## Pssthpok

Upper_Krust on his site said:
			
		

> Beta Release goes on sale at ENWorld. The Beta release will include all the text, the finished cover and hopefully close to one quarter of the interior illustrations.




I got confused by this. I thought this was the Beta release, since it just went on sale. Oh well... I've waited what? 4 years? I can wait another week or so.




			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Looks like Pssthpok won...




Too bad I can't get a 1st customer prize...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Pssthpok mate! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Maybe I missed something... I know I pre-ordered, but I get nothing when I click download. Is that what's supposed to happen, or is something wrong? Does pre-order mean 'pre-pay', i.e. pay now, but wait for the product?




Yes, hence the discount for pre-ordering.

As soon as I upload the text file, you will get that, then when I update that with the full art pdf you will get that too.

However, I don't want to deceive anyone here. So remember...

All you get for pre-ordering is a discount!

So if thats not palatable for anyone, just wait for a few weeks.


----------



## Pssthpok

Oh, that's fine. Like I said, I got confused by your website.
Godspeed, UK.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Looks like Pssthpok won...




Indeed he did!



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Too bad I can't get a 1st customer prize...




Never say never, but I'll need time to mull it over. 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Cover's very nice BTW- what's the dragon he's going after, is that Apep (or an amazing Apep-like substance)?




Thats Apep, the Egyptian Snake-Deity of Fire.

I was trying to make Apep cobra-like, but because I already had the shapes in place, I needed his head coming up and then down slightly. For the life of me I just could not get the cobra 'hood' shape of the head to work well at all at that angle.

The fiery breath I am seeing as half divine (hence the partial writhing serpent look), half fire.

I wanted the overall painting to be dominated by red/orange/yellow. Both Grimoire and Chronicle use the same design but the paintings will be primarily Green (Grimoire) and Blue/Purple (Chronicle).

I still think I must have subconsciously been channeling the cover art for the original D&D Immortals Boxed Set.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Is this the book about ME??!!!!!!!!!


Achieve my greatness!!!!

CR - UNLIMITED!


----------



## Pssthpok

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey guys!




Hey hey!



> Never say never, but I'll need time to mull it over.




Cheers for giving it some thought!


----------



## -Eä-

When the period of testing is finished and errors are corrected, I actually think I will spend the extra cash to get Ascension printed... First time I am doing this with an RPGPDF. Looking forward to the crunchy stuff now.


----------



## historian

Regretfully I'm also getting an error at checkout.  

I'll see if I can't get something worked out.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello CR_UNLIMITED!!!! 

...are you any relation to CR_Greathouse. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Is this the book about ME??!!!!!!!!!




Well I wouldn't necessarily say its about you specifically...but you are definately in it. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Achieve my greatness!!!!
> 
> CR - UNLIMITED!




Indeed.   

I appreciate the vote of confidence dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Eä matey! 

hope you are keeping well? How was your time in California...a bit hotter than you are used to I suspect? 

Noticed you have been a bit more active lately, and over at the WotC boards too. 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> When the period of testing is finished and errors are corrected, I actually think I will spend the extra cash to get Ascension printed... First time I am doing this with an RPGPDF. Looking forward to the crunchy stuff now.




When I have some money I plan on doing this myself.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Regretfully I'm also getting an error at checkout.
> 
> I'll see if I can't get something worked out.




I don't understand that, it seems to be selective. I have definately been getting sales from people. I hope you get it all sorted satisfactorily. I'm sure Chris should be able to sort the problem out when he gets the chance.


----------



## -Eä-

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Eä matey!
> 
> hope you are keeping well? How was your time in California...a bit hotter than you are used to I suspect?




My time in California was excellent. Many nice math people who shared my love for movies and such. Hotter, certainly, but not uncomfortably so. I didn't hook up with fellow gamers, though, but I imagine the break was healthy in some ways.
I had to leave a bit earlier than planned, though, due to my lack of a driver's licence. Apparently you need one to get around there.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Noticed you have been a bit more active lately, and over at the WotC boards too.




It comes and goes in periods for me. Right now, I'm in a D20 period, and being in a period like that, means assimilating all I have missed the last several couple of months. However, I do think shifting game systems now and then gives perspective and insight for adapting and customising the individual systems and settings for ones own taste.




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> When I have some money I plan on doing this myself.




Invested for a good cause (-:

Even though the print version is released, it may still be a while. ...And a printed version will also help me convince my comrades that they need to pick up Ascension


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K! 
Awesome job on the Cover. I don't think Apep has a clue who he is dealing with. 
Thrin's 3rd edition stats, especially with your rules, would indeed be scary.
And he could keep his ring of Vampiric Regeneration too (A potent* item in 3E, more powerful than most artifacts) (*Potent, Read: Broken ), I estimate its worth as at least 36,000 gp (Wrathful healing is a +3 bonus and does the same thing as a weapon special ability). 
I hope finishing up Ascension goes quickly, I am quite Curious as to your Omega Effect and Astro Effect powers. (My Imagination leads me to frightening conclusions based on the power of the Ultima Effect power) And if your rules for Cosmic Blast are anything remotely like they are in your Silver Surfer writeup, Your coolness factor would jump 20% in my book (Which would matter if you were not allready winning).
Curiously, does your divinity system have an upper limit to divine ranks? Or could a High Lord just keep acumulating them (Somehow) and gain more Bonuses/powers until they had all the powers or until the DM (or G.ame O.rdinance D.irector) slapped him or her?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I don't understand that, it seems to be selective. I have definately been getting sales from people. I hope you get it all sorted satisfactorily. I'm sure Chris should be able to sort the problem out when he gets the chance.




I think we'll get it sorted promptly.

Chris has been great.

Good luck w/pre-orders!


----------



## Fieari

Hopefully the preorders so far will allow him to pay his rent and buy groceries sufficient to give him the strength to finish on time.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Eä matey! 



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> My time in California was excellent.








			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Many nice math people who shared my love for movies and such. Hotter, certainly, but not uncomfortably so. I didn't hook up with fellow gamers, though, but I imagine the break was healthy in some ways.
> 
> I had to leave a bit earlier than planned, though, due to my lack of a driver's licence. Apparently you need one to get around there.




Well I haven't been to California but they do seem to have everything very spread out, and with no underground system (as far as I know) its probably tricky to get around.

Hopefully I will get over to Gencon next year for a holiday.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> It comes and goes in periods for me. Right now, I'm in a D20 period, and being in a period like that, means assimilating all I have missed the last several couple of months. However, I do think shifting game systems now and then gives perspective and insight for adapting and customising the individual systems and settings for ones own taste.




Cool.   



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Invested for a good cause (-:




Indeed.



			
				-Eä- said:
			
		

> Even though the print version is released, it may still be a while. ...And a printed version will also help me convince my comrades that they need to pick up Ascension




The print version of Asension should show up in around December this year...just in time for the holidays.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey Ltheb mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Awesome job on the Cover.




Thanks, although I am no Wayne Reynolds.   

Although I wonder what size he works to? I painted the Ascension cover at slightly over 200% of the final size it was to be shown, but I still can't seem to get anywhere near his amount of detail.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I don't think Apep has a clue who he is dealing with.




Well I know Thrin's stats but I haven't sorted out Apep's so Thrin could well be in trouble. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Thrin's 3rd edition stats, especially with your rules, would indeed be scary.




Well Thrin's stats will be in the Immortals Handbook: Chronicle, the appendix of Iconic Immortal Heroes and Villains.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> And he could keep his ring of Vampiric Regeneration too (A potent* item in 3E, more powerful than most artifacts) (*Potent, Read: Broken ), I estimate its worth as at least 36,000 gp (Wrathful healing is a +3 bonus and does the same thing as a weapon special ability).
> 
> Well of course there may be certain powers that duplicate such an effect...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ltheb Silverfrond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hope finishing up Ascension goes quickly,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Me too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ltheb Silverfrond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am quite Curious as to your Omega Effect and Astro Effect powers. (My Imagination leads me to frightening conclusions based on the power of the Ultima Effect power) And if your rules for Cosmic Blast are anything remotely like they are in your Silver Surfer writeup, Your coolness factor would jump 20% in my book (Which would matter if you were not allready winning).
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It might be similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ltheb Silverfrond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Curiously, does your divinity system have an upper limit to divine ranks?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Not really.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ltheb Silverfrond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Or could a High Lord just keep acumulating them (Somehow) and gain more Bonuses/powers until they had all the powers or until the DM (or G.ame O.rdinance D.irector) slapped him or her?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, pretty much. You will see how I handle High Lords Chapter 2 Divinity.
Click to expand...


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hello CR_UNLIMITED!!!!
> 
> ...are you any relation to CR_Greathouse.




Nope, i'm better!!! I'm unlimitied.



> Well I wouldn't necessarily say its about you specifically...but you are definately in it.




Sweet, I want to have a luckblade with 7 wishes and a +25 magic modifier.




> I appreciate the vote of confidence dude!




Don't worry about my confidence in you, worry about the books. They come out faster that way or maybe if you had some more fiber...


----------



## Twin Rose

The problem that Paradox was having, and perhaps others as well, seems to be this:

Paypal, our credit card processor, doesn't appear to want to accept Visa Debit cards (perhaps other debit cards as well, but visa seems for sure).  When testing, I assumed it didn't want to take my debit card because - well - it's a paypal debit card.  I'm not sure why this is, but it just seems to be the case.  For those having the problem, I suggest using paypal itself to make the purchase.  (As an asside, it saves us about 25 cents if people use paypal instead of credit card anyway).

I think I'll make sure and put a disclaimer on the payment method page, but first I need to test if mastercard and/or other debit cards work.  This is difficult, being that I don't have any of those to test with   If someone else has one and has found problems, please let me know.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Nope, i'm better!!! I'm unlimitied.




He is great though. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Sweet, I want to have a luckblade with 7 wishes and a +25 magic modifier.




Seems straightforward enough, however, you might find some even luckier weapons in the Immortals Handbook: Grimoire. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Don't worry about my confidence in you, worry about the books. They come out faster that way or maybe if you had some more fiber...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Twin Rose said:
			
		

> The problem that Paradox was having, and perhaps others as well, seems to be this:
> 
> Paypal, our credit card processor, doesn't appear to want to accept Visa Debit cards (perhaps other debit cards as well, but visa seems for sure).  When testing, I assumed it didn't want to take my debit card because - well - it's a paypal debit card.  I'm not sure why this is, but it just seems to be the case.  For those having the problem, I suggest using paypal itself to make the purchase.  (As an asside, it saves us about 25 cents if people use paypal instead of credit card anyway).
> 
> I think I'll make sure and put a disclaimer on the payment method page, but first I need to test if mastercard and/or other debit cards work.  This is difficult, being that I don't have any of those to test with   If someone else has one and has found problems, please let me know.




Thanks for the help Chris, I am going to post this on the website.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

I'm getting back into the swing of finishing the writing of Ascension. However, one element begs the question simplicity vs. accuracy/detail.

Namely detailing the Divine Retinue.

Now I am not going to explain the details surrounding divine retinues but trust me there are some cool modifiers. However, the point I want to pose is to do with dividing.

Now, as most of you know, in Leadership, when you divide ECL 2 or higher, you round any fractions up. Whereas when we always used this mechanic what you did was round fractions down, but carry them, then when you get down to individuals, every time you rounded down was another individual of a higher level. Basically its about sub-cohorts.

So here are the two examples, using a hypothetical Yeenoghu created by me who has a Leadership score of 82 and 483,600* ECL 1 servants...or petitioners as most people call them. 

*and you can guess how he has that many, cos' I ain't saying yet. 

*Firstly official rules:*

ECL 2: 48,360
ECL 3: 24,180
ECL 4: 12,090
ECL 5: 6045
ECL 6: 3023
ECL 7: 1512
ECL 8: 756
ECL 9: 378
ECL 10: 189
ECL 11: 95
ECL 12: 48
ECL 13: 24
ECL 14: 12
ECL 15: 6
ECL 16: 3
ECL 17: 2
*ECL 18: 1*

ECL 46: Cohort (King of Ghouls 26 HD Quasi-deity?)

Okay, here is my preferred way:

ECL 2: 48,360
ECL 3: 24,180
ECL 4: 12,090
ECL 5: 6045
ECL 6: 3022*(+1)
ECL 7: 1511
ECL 8: 755*(+2)
ECL 9: 377*(+3)
ECL 10: 188*(+4)
ECL 11: 94
ECL 12: 47
ECL 13: 23*(+5)
ECL 14: 11*(+6)
ECL 15: 5*(+7)
ECL 16: 2*(+8)
*ECL 17: 1
ECL 18: 1 (Once you get down to a single entry, you add another single entry then add one more for each time you rounded a fraction down)
ECL 19: 1*(-1)
ECL 20: 1*(-2)
ECL 21: 1*(-3)
ECL 22: 1*(-4)
ECL 23: 1*(-5)
ECL 24: 1*(-6)
ECL 25: 1*(-7)
ECL 26: 1*(-8)*

ECL 46: Cohort

As you can see, the second method is a bit slower, but the net result is that you gain a list of the immortals lieutenants.

So in the above example, Yeenoghu could include amongst his Lieutenants:

Dregon: Half (Blue) Dragon/Half Gnoll Sorcerer 18 (ECL 21)
Loathar: Glabrezu (ECL 20)
Igluu: Albino Gnoll Cleric 17 (ECL 17)
Surly, Barry & Mo: Three-headed Fiendish Ettin Barbarian 10 (ECL 24?)
A Brobdingnagian Flail Snail (his pet)
etc.

You get the idea.

So the question is, simplicity or a more detail?

Any thoughts?

At the moment I am going with my idea, but does it seem too time consuming for anyone?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Those numbers look fine... Though, my thoughts jump to the whole Epic-Spellcasting-Follower abuse, using a million 1st level followers each contributing one spell to mitigate an impossible to cast spell down to DC 0... Though any player in my game who tried this would learn quite quickly what haopens when all your followers are in one place, and somebody near by has Cloudkill 
As a minor anecdote, the Flailsnail has become a running gag in my current game. If someone comes to a wizard for help, he responds with "I am far too busy studying the mystical Flail-Snail." Eventually after hearing this about 3 times from three seperate mages, the PCs soon asked why mages were so interested in the Flail Snail. The response "There is no Flail snail, silly".
A Macrobe Flail snail would be funny indeed. Lethal, but funny.


----------



## Alzrius

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> The problem that Paradox was having, and perhaps others as well, seems to be this:
> 
> Paypal, our credit card processor, doesn't appear to want to accept Visa Debit cards (perhaps other debit cards as well, but visa seems for sure).  When testing, I assumed it didn't want to take my debit card because - well - it's a paypal debit card.  I'm not sure why this is, but it just seems to be the case.  For those having the problem, I suggest using paypal itself to make the purchase.  (As an asside, it saves us about 25 cents if people use paypal instead of credit card anyway).
> 
> I think I'll make sure and put a disclaimer on the payment method page, but first I need to test if mastercard and/or other debit cards work.  This is difficult, being that I don't have any of those to test with   If someone else has one and has found problems, please let me know.




This is a fairly devestating blow. I use a Visa debit card, and so do a lot of other people I know. Using a Paypal check, on the other hand, takes a week to clear, just like a normal check. When I buy something for download, I don't want to wait that long.  :\


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Wow I hope the Debit issue is resolved soon.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> This is a fairly devestating blow. I use a Visa debit card, and so do a lot of other people I know. Using a Paypal check, on the other hand, takes a week to clear, just like a normal check. When I buy something for download, I don't want to wait that long.  :\




Well I know historian got his problem sorted, but I don't know the details of how exactly, so maybe he or Chris will explain?


----------



## CRGreathouse

For those keeping track at home, it would normally take a Leadership score of 4866 to get 483,600 followers.  Yeenoghu would have to gain almost 10,000 Cha to get that score.  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> So the question is, simplicity or a more detail?
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> At the moment I am going with my idea, but does it seem too time consuming for anyone?




I don't like your idea as written.  Consider a character with 65,535 2nd-level followers.  By the standard rules, the character will have one 17th level follower (and no higher).  By your rules, the character would have one 33rd level follower, I think, and no higher.

Now suppose another character has 65,536 2nd-level followers.  The standard rules give this character one 18th level follower -- appropriate, since that character has more 2nd-level followers.  Under your system, the character would get no more followers.  This gives the character with the lower Leadership score a much more powerful retinue (perhaps a hundred times stronger).

My essential problem is the that the number of time you round is essentially random, and the number of followers is no longer a monotonically increasing function of the Leadership score.  (A person could gain a level and lose high-level followers.)

Further, if this system were used for Epic Leadership, it would make a powerful feat even stronger.  That probably isn't right.

I don't think the question is one of simplicity vs. detail.  That's a misrepresentation; neither system is significantly more complex.  Yours does move about more randomly and give many more high-level followers, though.  That's the decision that needs to be made.

If you want to give out more high-level followers, I'd suggest just adding (Leadership score / X) to the top, where X is perhaps 10 or 20.


----------



## historian

Hey guys.  



> Well I know historian got his problem sorted, but I don't know the details of how exactly, so maybe he or Chris will explain?




Happy to explain, but unfortunately my snafu was related to a Pay Pal disparity between my wife's e-mail address and my own.  Nevertheless, and for reasons I can't explain, when I clicked on the left of the two icons (under the Pay Pal option at checkout) I was able to get through. 

Alzrius, if problems persist I wouldn't mind "fronting" the transaction for you.


----------



## Pssthpok

Thankfully, I paid via credit, not debit.


----------



## Twin Rose

Alzrius said:
			
		

> This is a fairly devestating blow. I use a Visa debit card, and so do a lot of other people I know. Using a Paypal check, on the other hand, takes a week to clear, just like a normal check. When I buy something for download, I don't want to wait that long.  :\




Let me know if it's working for you still - it might be just a couple of cases, or maybe the gateway company of the debit card, not "visa" debit per se.  Also I'm pretty sure that paypal itself will elt you add a 'paypal balance' via debit no problem - I've never tried myself though.  Anyway, I'm definately investigating.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Have you seen WotC's Yeenoghu writeup for _Hordes of the Abyss_?  What do you think?  Obviously, your version is a fair bit more powerful....

Speaking of your version -- how strong is it, really?  Any idea of the HD or CR?  Haffrung Helleyes seems to be concerned about the HotA Yeenoghu's Int score, but I imagine yours will have better mental stats all around.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> For those keeping track at home, it would normally take a Leadership score of 4866 to get 483,600 followers.  Yeenoghu would have to gain almost 10,000 Cha to get that score.




Wrong guess!   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't like your idea as written.




 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Consider a character with 65,535 2nd-level followers.  By the standard rules, the character will have one 17th level follower (and no higher).




Except for one Cohort...and this doesn't preclude allies and so forth.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> By your rules, the character would have one 33rd level follower, I think, and no higher.




See above.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Now suppose another character has 65,536 2nd-level followers.  The standard rules give this character one 18th level follower -- appropriate, since that character has more 2nd-level followers.  Under your system, the character would get no more followers.  This gives the character with the lower Leadership score a much more powerful retinue (perhaps a hundred times stronger).




I'm sorry you have totally lost me.   



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> My essential problem is the that the number of time you round is essentially random, and the number of followers is no longer a monotonically increasing function of the Leadership score.  (A person could gain a level and lose high-level followers.)




Actually the number of followers is not random its always perfectly double the number of ECL 2 characters. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Further, if this system were used for Epic Leadership, it would make a powerful feat even stronger.  That probably isn't right.




I wouldn't even require a character to have Epic Leadership to gain this. To me its redundant. The leadership tables should progress _ad infinitum_ without requiring another feat. Its like the Improved Heighten Spell epic feat - totally redundant.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I don't think the question is one of simplicity vs. detail.  That's a misrepresentation; neither system is significantly more complex.  Yours does move about more randomly and give many more high-level followers, though.  That's the decision that needs to be made.




Random - I say thee nay!



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> If you want to give out more high-level followers, I'd suggest just adding (Leadership score / X) to the top, where X is perhaps 10 or 20.




That was something I was potentially eyeing up if the other way was deemed too complex.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Have you seen WotC's Yeenoghu writeup for _Hordes of the Abyss_?  What do you think?




I already posted my thoughts in reply to James Jacobs in the BIG HotA thread in General Discussion. Of course he didn't reply to it because his position is indefensible.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Obviously, your version is a fair bit more powerful....




Demon Princes are demipowers as far as I am concerned.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Speaking of your version -- how strong is it, really?  Any idea of the HD or CR?




37 HD Converted from the original 100 hp 1st Ed. total. (100 divided by 4 x 1.5). The same conversion rules I have on my website.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Haffrung Helleyes seems to be concerned about the HotA Yeenoghu's Int score, but I imagine yours will have better mental stats all around.




Not necessarily.

Off the top of my head *probably* something like...

Str 38, Dex 22, Con 30, Int 20, Wis 24, Cha 24

Thats before possible epic feats and divine abilities.

Triple Flail would be +23 total (+12, with +11 worth of special abilities).

Scale Mail would be +33 total (+17, with +16 worth of special abilities).

Natural Armour bonus +11, Deflection +7, Divine +6


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm sorry you have totally lost me.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually the number of followers is not random its always perfectly double the number of ECL 2 characters.




If I understood your system correctly, the problem is the following:

ECL 2: 65,535
ECL 3: 32,767 (+1)
ECL 4: 16,383 (+2)
ECL 5: 8191 (+3)
ECL 6: 4095 (+4)
ECL 7: 2047 (+5)
ECL 8: 1023 (+6)
ECL 9: 511 (+7)
ECL 10: 255 (+8)
ECL 11: 127 (+9)
ECL 12: 63 (+10)
ECL 13: 31 (+11)
ECL 14: 15 (+12)
ECL 15: 7 (+13)
ECL 16: 3 (+14)
ECL 17: 1 (+15)
ECL 18: 1 (+14)
ECL 19: 1 (+13)
ECL 20: 1 (+12)
ECL 21: 1 (+11)
ECL 22: 1 (+10)
...
ECL 32: 1 (+0)

compared to

ECL 2: 65,536
ECL 3: 32,768
ECL 4: 16,384
ECL 5: 8192
ECL 6: 4096
ECL 7: 2048
ECL 8: 1024
ECL 9: 512
ECL 10: 256
ECL 11: 128
ECL 12: 64
ECL 13: 32
ECL 14: 16
ECL 15: 8
ECL 16: 4
ECL 17: 2
ECL 18: 1

I think you see what CRGreathouse means? Though I'm not sure whether these numbers of followers are possible to achieve (meaning those exact numbers, not the magnitude).


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Wrong guess!




The right guess is fairly obvious, actually, but let's not get into it here.  I'll try to update my Leadrship calculator for your rules as I get the chance.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Actually the number of followers is not random its always perfectly double the number of ECL 2 characters.




Let F be the number of 2nd-level followers.

Under the standard system:
There are between 12F-1 and 12F+ceil(lg F)-2 total followers*.
The highest-level follower is level ceil(lg F)+2.

In your system:
There are 12F total followers.
The highest-level follower is level floor(lg F)+2+sum(i=0..infinity, (F / 2^i) % 2).


In the standard system, there's a very small amount of variability in the number of total followers.  Some levels it jumps up, others it changes only a little.  This is comparitive, though; the biggest discrepancy between what you'd expect and what you get is roughly lg(F)/2.  Around *one million* followers, that's a variability of 10 -- not bad, considering each +1 to Leadership gives about 120 new followers.  Also, it's montonically increasing: you never lose followers at any given level by gaining Leadership score.

In your system, there's great variability between the level of the highest-level follower.  In the standard system, there's almost none.  Your system is slightly more difficult to use, but the level of the most powerful follower changes in an essentially random manner (in a particular, well-defined sense).

* For F at least 2.  Small cases obviously don't interest us here.  Notation: ceil = ceiling, the "round up" function; floor is the "round down" function; lg = base-2 logarithm.  lg _x_ is about 3 times the number of digits in _x_ -- that is, it's a small number.  % is the modulo operator; _x_ % 2 is 0 for _x_ even and 1 for _x_ odd.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I already posted my thoughts in reply to James Jacobs in the BIG HotA thread in General Discussion. *Of course he didn't reply to it because his position is indefensible*.




ZING! :>

Without going off-topic, I think that Mr Jacobs replied plenty of times in that thread, including on the most recent page where he says what his preferred technique for statting the beasties in question would have been (CR20ish and CR30ish versions) but also said something of why that didn't happen.  Whether or not you agree with him, perhaps we should be staying clear of statements like the bolded one, which only lead to chaos.

Re: your leadership rules: I think that removing Epic Leadership is probably a good idea, but I'm not sure about your alternate way of working out followers.  Changing to rounding down is a good idea, since that's the standard D&D maths idea: but adding on all these extra "rounded" followers seems a bit odd.  I don't think they're going to be high enough level to really "matter" to the kind of challenges the Immortals will be facing: your originale xample had a ECL 26 as his highest follower, but an ECL 46 cohort, so he must be at least ECL 48 himself.  Frankly, will the difference in effectiveness between ECL 18 and 28 followers make a damn bit of difference in game for that character?  Is it worth making a player go through this extra work in handling all these followers when the in-game benefit is relatively minor?

It does, as you say, grant them a better "middle management" for their minions.  If you're going to play the sort of immortals who will have Inevitables/Slaadi/Demons/Guardinals/whatever on command, you're going to need some bigger slots for followers.  It certainly isn't unbalancing IMHO.

Now I@ve made my pre-order,, the excitement at getting my hands on your latest creation is mounting.  It's almost enough to get a Scotsman through the fact he still hasn't got his Community Supporter status back, and the endless World Cup on the news.... ;-)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> If I understood your system correctly, the problem is the following:
> 
> ECL 2: 65,535
> ECL 3: 32,767 (+1)
> ECL 4: 16,383 (+2)
> ECL 5: 8191 (+3)
> ECL 6: 4095 (+4)
> ECL 7: 2047 (+5)
> ECL 8: 1023 (+6)
> ECL 9: 511 (+7)
> ECL 10: 255 (+8)
> ECL 11: 127 (+9)
> ECL 12: 63 (+10)
> ECL 13: 31 (+11)
> ECL 14: 15 (+12)
> ECL 15: 7 (+13)
> ECL 16: 3 (+14)
> ECL 17: 1 (+15)
> ECL 18: 1 (+14)
> ECL 19: 1 (+13)
> ECL 20: 1 (+12)
> ECL 21: 1 (+11)
> ECL 22: 1 (+10)
> ...
> ECL 32: 1 (+0)
> 
> compared to
> 
> ECL 2: 65,536
> ECL 3: 32,768
> ECL 4: 16,384
> ECL 5: 8192
> ECL 6: 4096
> ECL 7: 2048
> ECL 8: 1024
> ECL 9: 512
> ECL 10: 256
> ECL 11: 128
> ECL 12: 64
> ECL 13: 32
> ECL 14: 16
> ECL 15: 8
> ECL 16: 4
> ECL 17: 2
> ECL 18: 1
> 
> I think you see what CRGreathouse means? Though I'm not sure whether these numbers of followers are possible to achieve (meaning those exact numbers, not the magnitude).




Yes I see what he means now. Its a large benefit when you end on a 5. Technically you couldn't end on a 5 to begin with, but you could end on a 0, which would give you a 5 on the next division.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> The right guess is fairly obvious, actually, but let's not get into it here.  I'll try to update my Leadrship calculator for your rules as I get the chance.




I'd be very impressed if anyone guesses exactly how I am handling Leadership for Yeenoghu. 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Let F be the number of 2nd-level followers.
> 
> Under the standard system:
> There are between 12F-1 and 12F+ceil(lg F)-2 total followers*.
> The highest-level follower is level ceil(lg F)+2.
> 
> In your system:
> There are 12F total followers.
> The highest-level follower is level floor(lg F)+2+sum(i=0..infinity, (F / 2^i) % 2).
> 
> 
> In the standard system, there's a very small amount of variability in the number of total followers.  Some levels it jumps up, others it changes only a little.  This is comparitive, though; the biggest discrepancy between what you'd expect and what you get is roughly lg(F)/2.  Around *one million* followers, that's a variability of 10 -- not bad, considering each +1 to Leadership gives about 120 new followers.  Also, it's montonically increasing: you never lose followers at any given level by gaining Leadership score.
> 
> In your system, there's great variability between the level of the highest-level follower.  In the standard system, there's almost none.  Your system is slightly more difficult to use, but the level of the most powerful follower changes in an essentially random manner (in a particular, well-defined sense).
> 
> * For F at least 2.  Small cases obviously don't interest us here.  Notation: ceil = ceiling, the "round up" function; floor is the "round down" function; lg = base-2 logarithm.  lg _x_ is about 3 times the number of digits in _x_ -- that is, it's a small number.  % is the modulo operator; _x_ % 2 is 0 for _x_ even and 1 for _x_ odd.




Yes I see exactly what you mean now. Time to bust in those Sub-Cohort rules.


----------



## Zoatebix

Perhaps an easier and more predictable way of generating a cadre of lieutenants would be to work down from the Cohort - or even replace the single Cohort with some group of multiple lieutenants of equivalent encounter level?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail mate! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> ZING! :>
> 
> Without going off-topic, I think that Mr Jacobs replied plenty of times in that thread,




He posted a few times, but he didn't 'reply', if you appreciate the distinction.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> including on the most recent page where he says what his preferred technique for statting the beasties in question would have been (CR20ish and CR30ish versions) but also said something of why that didn't happen.




He posted some excuses bereft of logic (each of which was easily rebuked). In fact at one point he even admits that it makes more sense for the Demon Princes to be more powerful than they were portrayed in the book because they rule planar layers!



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Whether or not you agree with him, perhaps we should be staying clear of statements like the bolded one, which only lead to chaos.




GQuail mate, you don't know about me and online debates, because I am usually pretty timid around these parts and its been a year or two since I have had to really 'school' anyone on ENWorld. Suffice to say I stand by my comments and if *anyone* wants to make anything of it they know where to find me. My sig ain't just for show you know. 

As I said, I have already posted my comments on the matter in the other thread and I am happy to leave it at that. My attack was not against Mr. Jacobs of whom I have the utmost respect (I love the Demonomicon articles), nor was it even against the Hordes of the Abyss book, which I am sure is very good. My argument was specifically against the reasoning for making the Demon Lords as weak as they did - and I am far from alone in my (constructive) criticism of it. 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Re: your leadership rules: I think that removing Epic Leadership is probably a good idea, but I'm not sure about your alternate way of working out followers.  Changing to rounding down is a good idea, since that's the standard D&D maths idea: but adding on all these extra "rounded" followers seems a bit odd.  I don't think they're going to be high enough level to really "matter" to the kind of challenges the Immortals will be facing: your originale xample had a ECL 26 as his highest follower, but an ECL 46 cohort, so he must be at least ECL 48 himself.  Frankly, will the difference in effectiveness between ECL 18 and 28 followers make a damn bit of difference in game for that character?  Is it worth making a player go through this extra work in handling all these followers when the in-game benefit is relatively minor?
> 
> It does, as you say, grant them a better "middle management" for their minions.  If you're going to play the sort of immortals who will have Inevitables/Slaadi/Demons/Guardinals/whatever on command, you're going to need some bigger slots for followers.  It certainly isn't unbalancing IMHO.




Thats okay, I already had Sub-Cohort rules worked out (originally as optional rules), which are easily implemented as standard. 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Now I@ve made my pre-order,, the excitement at getting my hands on your latest creation is mounting.  It's almost enough to get a Scotsman through the fact he still hasn't got his Community Supporter status back, and the endless World Cup on the news.... ;-)




Cheer up, England might lose.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Knight Otu, thanks.  That's exactly what I meant.

Yes, those particular numbers won't occur -- I chose an example off the top of my head, not using a calculator or table.  It's not hard to find examples of this, though -- consider 40 to 41 Leadership.  40 has a 14th level follower under your system, while 41 Leadership doesn't.  At Leadership 42 the 13th-level follower is lost.  At Leadership 43 followers are gained at levels 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 18.  One more point causes the 17th and 18th level followers to disappear, etc.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Ending in 5 isn't very significant.  The significance is the number of 1s in the binary representation of the number.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'd be very impressed if anyone guesses exactly how I am handling Leadership for Yeenoghu.




Figuring it out exactly would be hard without seeing the rest of Yeenoghu's stats.   Still, the basic facts you gave are that he has a "base" Leadership score of 82 and 483600 level 1 followers.  This could come about normally with a Leadership score of 4866, but this clearly has nothing to do with your method.  The fact that it is exactly 93 times the normal number of 1st-level followers is what gives the method away.  Now, deciding how to come to 93 is a more complicated issue, since there are many factors that it could derive from and those factors could be either multiplicative or additive.  Since 93 has only 3 and 31 as prime factors, this limits the possibilities for multiplicative factors.

C'mon, give us some credit here.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> He posted some excuses bereft of logic (each of which was easily rebuked). In fact at one point he even admits that it makes more sense for the Demon Princes to be more powerful than they were portrayed in the book because they rule planar layers!




He also said that it wasn't necesarilly the option he wanted to go with.  Your fight isn't with him, and complaining that he isn't explaining it "enough" is a little disingenious, when he has replied plenty of times, and other people address some points in your post.  Your comment just felt a little, I dunno, bitchy to me: the geeky equivilant of Patty and Selma mocking Homer when he's out the room.  ;-)

Perhaps I'm overly concerned with the tone on this topic since I saw at least one poster I quite liked up until then post some pretty harsh stuff on that thread which soured me to them.  I'd like if I kept all the piles of respect I have for you, that's all.  :-D




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats okay, I already had Sub-Cohort rules worked out (originally as optional rules), which are easily implemented as standard.




I think that's a better way of doing what I think you're trying to do: giving higher level characters more associates of note, rather than just endless waves of ECL 1 drones.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Wow, my internet is down for like 6 hours and a heated discussion errupts.
Admitedly, U_K's numbers look a bit confusing. I like the Idea of having a few higher level minions serving deitys. While we are only seeing the proverbial tip of the iceburg with U_K's rules, from what I see, perhaps the formula needs to be simplified to some thing like: Normal Epic Leadership rules (With Divine+ enhancement abilities) but with a number of weaker cohorts equal to the deity's rank. Perhaps these weaker cohorts are 1/2 the level of the normal Cohort, but each additional one after the first is at a cumulative -1 level. So a rank 4 deity with leadership sufficient for a 30th level cohort could have an additional 15th level cohort, a 14th level cohort, a 13th level cohort, and a 12th level cohort. Perhaps these cohorts could (with the aid of a divine or cosmic power taken by their leader) gain increased level maximums, for your secoundary cohorts by (Divinerank) levels.
Personally I can deal with the current rules, but since we allready have Epic Leadership, why ignore it when we can add on?
On another note: Thanks to everyone for all the support, I finaly preordered Ascension.


----------



## dante58701

Preordered ascension and even did a revision of my favorite creature...the Anathema....which is originally from the dice freaks website. Which reminds me...can someone get me unbanned from there. Its not my fault I share a computer with an evil nutball. Who also sends his apologies. For what...I have no idea. But knowing him...he probably stepped on a few toes. Not that its difficult to do that in forums.
Anyway...if someone can get me unbanned it would be great. My friends dicefreaks name was fanatic. I dont remember mine. 

Anyhoo...nuff gabbering...heres my revamped rendition of the Anathema.

ABOMINATION (God-Spawn)

These outcast progeny of the gods are born twixt an unholy union of the divine and the damned.

ABOMINATION TRAITS

• Ability Scores: Table A-1: Typical Abomination Statistics outlines the typical physical ability scores for abominations.

• Damage Reduction: Typically, abominations have damage reduction equal to half their Hit Dice (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5)

• Divine Traits: Abominations are effectively quasi-deities and as such add a +4 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and
spell resistance.

• Immunities: Abominations are immune to enchantment, illusionist and transmutation magic. They are not subject to energy drain, ability damage or drain.

• Special Qualities: Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage and have maximum hit points per Hit Die.

• Spell Resistance : Typically, abominations have spell resistance equal to 14 (base 10 + 4 divine bonus) plus their Hit Dice.

• Telepathy: Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1000 feet that has a language.

• Virtual Size Category: Most abominations have at least 15 points of strength beyond the average for creatures of that size and as such gain a

Virtual Size Category.

BUILDING ABOMINATIONS

The following information, updates and expands upon page 157 of the Epic Level Handbook.

Fast Healing (Ex): Abominations may have fast healing up to half their total Hit Dice (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5).

Regeneration (Su): Abominations may also have regeneration equal to half their total Hit Dice (rounded down to the nearest multiple of 5). Any regeneration will be negated by the same type of attacks that would overcome the abominations damage reduction (other than merely epic).

Natural Armor (Ex): Determine natural armor as follows:

• Amorphous/fluid body: Natural armor = size bonuses only.

• Skin/furred body: Natural armor = 1/4 HD + any bonuses for size.

• Scaly skin/exoskeleton: Natural armor = 1/2 HD + any bonuses for size. Treat Dexterity as if wearing medium armor.

• Carapace plated/mineral-like body: Natural Armor = HD + any bonuses for size. Treat Dexterity as if wearing heavy armor.

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): All abominations possess spell-like abilities which are cast at a level equal to their Hit Dice + 4 (divine bonus).

Unique Abilities (Variable): All abominations have one or more unique abilities. See the Immortals Handbook: Apotheosis (Chapter Four: Abilities & Feats) for hundreds of possible powers.

TABLE A-1: TYPICAL ABOMINATION STATISTICS

Size 		Str 	Dex 	Con 	# of HD
Fine 		24-25 	26-27 	8-9 	4-9
Diminutive 	24-25 	24-25 	12-13 	7-13
Tiny 		28-29 	22-23 	16-17 	10-21
Small 		32-33 	20-21 	20-21 	19-33
Medium 		34-35 	18-19 	24-25 	27-38
Large 		44-45 	16-17 	28-29 	36-50
Huge 		54-55 	14-15 	32-33 	47-58
Gargantuan 	64-65 	12-13 	36-37 	56-70
Colossal 		74-75 	10-11 	40-41 	67-78
Titanic 		84-85 	10 	44-45 	76-90

ABOMINATION CULTS

Each abomination entry includes details on possible cults. Clerics of abominations are granted up to 7th-level spells.

Anathema 
Large Outsider (Abomination, Evil, Extraplanar, Incorporeal) 
Hit Dice: 30d8 (outsider) plus +270 (510 hp) 
Initiative: +21 (+13 Dex, +4 Divine, +4 Improved Initiative) 
Speed: fly 240 ft. (perfect) 
Armor Class: 37 (-1 size, +13 Dex, +11 deflection, +4 divine), touch 37, flat-footed 24
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/- 
Attack: 4 incorporeal touches +49 or melee touch +46 or ranged touch +46
Full Attack: 4 incorporeal touches +47 (Will save DC 42 or 1d8 Wisdom damage) or melee touch +46 or ranged touch +46
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft. 
Special Attacks: Face of Evil, feast of anguish, profane invasion, spell-like abilities 
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, damage reduction 15/epic and mithril, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 15, immunity to acid and poison, legendary dexterity, regeneration 15, rejuvenation, resistance to electricity, cold, and fire 15, SR 44 
Saves: Fort +28 Ref +32 Will +30
Abilities: Str —, Dex 36, Con 29, Int 26, Wis 28, Cha 33 
Skills: Bluff +50, Concentration +33, Diplomacy +56, Disguise +48 (+52 observed in character), Gather Information +50, Hide +50, Intimidate +54, Knowledge (arcana) +35, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +25, Knowledge (history) +22, Knowledge (local [Gehenna]) +19, Knowledge (nature) +44, Knowledge (religion, the planes) +45, Move Silently +40, Search +27, Sense Motive +40, Spellcraft +34, Spot +25, Survival +28 (+32 aboveground environments, extraplanar, +30 underground) 
Feats: Ability Focus (Face of Evil), Combat Reflexes, Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Spell Focus (Enchantment), Persuasive, Quicken Spell-like Ability (suggestion [mass]), Weapon Focus (incorporeal touch) 
Epic Feats: Blinding Speed, Spell Stowaway (greater teleport), Tenacious Magic (deeper darkness) 
Environment: Carceri, Grey Wastes of Despair 
Organization: Solitary (Unique) 
Challenge Rating: 32 
Treasure: Standard 
Alignment: Always neutral evil 
Advancement: 31-60 HD (Large), 61-90 HD (Huge) 
Level Adjustment: – 

Allegedly, when Pure Evil came into existence with one transcendant act of itself, liberated of law and chaos as strongly as it was of good, it immediately destroyed itself by bringing forth beings with which to better spread itself like a plague. One of the foremost of these beings were the Maladae, and some of the Maladae in turn dedicated themselves to the Acts and Symptoms of Pure Evil, creating Daemons to help spread themselves, while others among the Maladae instead focused on the Words of Pure Evil, claiming to invent Dark Speech itself and becoming the First Covey. 

Yet a third group of these primordial beings dedicated to plaguing existence were representations of the Thoughts of Pure Evil itself. As a thought is formless, existing only through the minds of others, so were these beings also formless. Terrors to the earliest cultures of the Mortal Coil, once the nature of the threat that they represented was discerned these creatures were eventually named the Anathema. 

It is unknown how long the Anathema lurked in the very earliest wastes that would later be called Gehenna, or for that matter, what these wastes even looked like. However, what is far better known is how these creatures came to discover and despoil the Mortal Coil. Members of the earliest mortal cultures, experimenting with the first spells and powers capable of planeshifting, reached Gehenna and were exposed to the Anathema. The Anathema quickly realized not only that their presence brought suffering to the mortals that beheld them, but also that the suffering that they inflicted was a source of nourishment to them and that they could invade mortals for the purposes of feasting upon the pain that they caused with such ease. 

After this initial discovery, dozens of Anathema descended upon The Mortal Coil, with each Anathema taking a unique approach to spreading evil. Some preferred to hunt down mortal heroes through trickery and then feign their own defeat so they could possess the hero. In this manner mortals became inadvertent tools of the Anathema for the slow spread of their poison into the fertile soil of mortal minds. Still others took a differing approach, and instead preferred to start out with beings that had already taken tentative steps towards discovering the power of true evil from the Anathema’s perspective, and ‘pushed’ them mentally until they spawned cults of atrocity and nihilism that even the first evil gods that mortals worshipped looked upon with horror. Others still maligned the early forces of good through various means, impersonating representatives of the earliest cosmic entities and deities that were good, and in the process sowing distrust against the concept of good itself. 

More alarming than their behavior was their success; while the Anathema were even more incapable of unity than the Daemons that came after them, the burgeoning Anathema-cults sent millions of souls, condemned through their own fears and predilections for engaging in the behaviors that the Anathema ‘encouraged’ through word and spell, into the wastes of Gehenna to the point where the landscape itself caught on fire with the Flames of Loss, eternally self-incinerating as a result of the sadism of the Anathema towards mortals incarnated, and the undying fury that the deluded and wrathful petitioners of the Anathema felt as a result of their own eternal torment. 

It was their inspiration that ultimately proved to be their undoing. 

As Anathema-sponsored death cults became more common upon the Mortal Coil, their actions attracted greater interest from the nascent forces of Balance, as well as those of good. If anything, their actions were not a hindrance to the Anathema at first, but almost a promotion for them as often an evil openly opposed becomes an evil described. The real, and ultimately lethal, threat to the open power of the Anathema came from the rising power of the Daemons created by the Maladae. While the Anathema were individually powerful, their own self-destructive natures ensured that comparatively few petitioners actually came to their own lands within Gehenna. The Daemons wished to expand to Gehenna under the leadership of the Architect of the Tower Arcane, in the process hoping to completely dominate pure evil for themselves. As a result, war between the Daemons and the Anathema was inevitable...and the Daemons, ultimately won the war. The result is that Mungoth itself, once as volcanic a layer as Khalas or Chamada, was extinguished, and the Flames of Loss used to forge the foundations of Daemonic power in Gehenna through the Tower Arcane. This act of betrayal, in turn, fueled the final conquest of Gehenna as a whole, as the Anathema, instead of facing an army of Daemons that returned to the Grey Wastes when slain, instead found themselves facing an army that respawned itself endlessly within their home territory. 

Weakened through the destruction of their base in the Realms Beyond, it was at this point that the efforts of the Agents of Balance and Bastions of Holiness came to full bear against the Anathema. What remaining cults of Anathema existed were destroyed at least for a time. However, the Anathema were never completely eliminated, and through devious means, they managed to re-invent themselves using the very tools and forms of their own destroyers. 

Many mortal religions that arose after the destruction of the Anathema carried within them ideas...archetypes of a time in which all things would end in despair and pointless, futile, destruction. From these religions and this iconography, four of the most devious Anathema became the incarnations of impending doom. Their original names, as well as their original forms lost, they came to be known as Death, Famine, Pestilence, and War. They used the intellectual structures of their own enemies in order to better describe a reality consisting of nothing but unending, disastrous suffering-and then proceeded to do their utmost to translate it into reality-a task that they were, unfortunately for hundreds of worlds within the Mortal Coil, quite successful at. 

A second group of the Anathema also discerned a pathway by which they could achieve reformation despite the status quo that evolved after the conquest of Gehenna by the Daemons. While all Anathema, to some extent, encouraged self-destructive behavior, the seven most competent Anathema at encouraging these acts reinvented themselves along similar lines, becoming known as the Sins. 

Anathema are notorious for their ability to appear as practically anything and everything else, even not taking into account their ability to possess other beings. However, their true form is generally considered to be a cloud of black, droning, incorporeal motes similar to a swarm of insects ten feet tall and four feet wide, manifesting extensions of itself as well vague mockeries of facial whenever they thought that doing so would inspire more terror in their precisely chosen victims. In their true form, Anathema communicate through telepathy, quietly whispering thoughts of self-annihilation, inevitable torment, and pointless suffering to all beings unfortunate enough to be within range of them.

Abomination Traits:

• Divine Traits: Abominations are effectively quasi-deities and as such add a +4 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance.

• Immunities: Abominations are immune to enchantment, illusionist and transmutation magic. They are not subject to energy drain, ability damage or drain.

• Special Qualities: Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage and have maximum hit points per Hit Die.

• Telepathy: Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1000 feet that has a language.

• Virtual Size Category: Most abominations have at least 15 points of strength beyond the average for creatures of that size and as such gain a Virtual Size Category.

Face of Evil (Su): To gaze upon an Anathema in it’s true form is to gaze upon the Face of Evil, and to see one of the earliest creatures that have boiled forth from the Depths Below in order to corrupt the minds and souls of mortals. As a result, all beings that see Anathema in their true form must make a Will save 42 or else be affected in a manner analogous to if they had been attacked by a spell of the Anathema’s choosing. This spell need not be one that the Anathema in question could choose as a spell-like ability, but it must be 8th level or lower, and it is treated as cast at the Anathema’s Hit Die. This choice is unique to each Anathema and cannot be changed, as it is a reflection of each Anathema’s slightly unique form of vileness. Scrying or similar abilities upon an Anathema provides no protection, but beings that view an Anathema through such indirect means receive a +4 bonus on the saving throw in order to avoid being affected. 

The touch of the Anathema inflicts a similar penalty against it’s victims additionally, damaging their sanity as visions of the Anathema’s past and future torments upon mortals are forced into it’s mind. As a result, beings touched by the Anathema must make a Will save DC 42 or else take 1d8 Wisdom damage. This is a melee touch attack and the saving throw DC is Charisma-based. 

Feast of Anguish (Ex): Each Anathema has the ability to benefit from the destructive behaviors and suffering that it inspires in others. For every two living individuals that an Anathema harms or deludes into behaving in a destructive manner within a 500-foot radius of itself, an Anathema receives a +1 bonus to saving throws, caster level, skill level, and attack rolls. The particular anguish that each Anathema feasts upon is unique to each Anathema, with some of the better known Anathema having made a specialty out of self-mutilation and other horrific behaviors. An Anathema may only empower itself in this manner with maximum bonus up to half of it’s HD or +20, whichever is lower, and benefits acquired in this manner last for an hour. The saving throw DC’s are Wisdom-based.

Legendary Dexterity (Ex): The Anathema’s amazing agility is renowned. Their dexterity score is twice that of other abominations their size.

Nondetection (Su): This continually functions identically to the spell of the same name, although it may be negated and/or resumed as a free action.

Profane Invasion (Ex): All Anathema may possess mortals. For an Anathema to do so is a horrifying and painful violation of the mind, body, and spirit of it’s victim that sends them into convulsions for six rounds, affecting them as the spell wrack. Each round an Anathema attempts to possess a mortal, their victim must make a Will save DC 40, and should a victim make three successive saves in a row then they have shaken off the attempt, and that Anathema may not attempt to possess that same individual for eight days. 

Should the Anathema successfully possess it’s victim, then the Anathema immediately modifies their memories in order to delete any mental evidence of the event. From that moment forwards, a victim of an Anathema’s Profane Invasion becomes essentially a fusion of the Anathema and their target. The Anathema gains all access to the memories, spells, and spell-like abilities of it’s victims and is capable of seeing through all senses that they possess. Furthermore, the victim becomes physically and spiritually modified through the presence of the Anathema, gaining one point of Dexterity and Constitution per day until it is a blending of it’s own abilities and the Anathema’s, as well as it’s body acquiring the damage reduction, fast healing, immunities, regeneration, resistances, ect. of the Anathema. An Anathema while possessing a mortal may use it’s spell-like, supernatural, and other, purely mental, abilities, through the mortal. An Anathema in possession of a corporeal body likewise gradually acquires a natural armor bonus equal to1/4 it's hit dice and also gradually acquires a strength  score of 45, with no apparent physical alterations. The Anathema, however,  may inflict wounds upon the body as it sees fit, with no more effort than would be required by a thought. Even going as far as to contort and twist the body in gruesome and unnatural ways. This, of course, never actually harms the possessed unless the Anathema allows it to. Anathemas can get rather creative when doing so, twisting heads completely around and projectile vomiting if it pleases them to do so. 

The Anathema, however, is immediately absorbed into the ground and/or surrounding area of the exact location where it possessed the mortal, and is incapable of moving from that location for as long as the possession lasts. An Anathema whom chooses to end it’s possession of a host may do so as a full-round action. Accomplishing this drags the aspect of the Anathema that has possessed the mortal back to the Anathema, and allows the Anathema to emerge from the ground and/or surrounding area in order to find further targets. 

Anathema are notoriously difficult to detect while they are contained within a host, and many of the normal defenses against evil beings are ineffective against them until the host detects as Neutral Evil. Anathema-possessed beings may enter areas blocked by magic circle against evil and protection from evil, and cannot be detected through detect evil spells. Even worse, mortals possessed by Anathema may freely cross into and out of The Mortal Coil. 

Each week that a victim is possessed, more of their personality is subsumed by that of the Anathema, until eventually there is nothing left but the Anathema within their body, acquiring all of their knowledge even while there is practically nothing left of the original mortal to restore. While a restoration spell, followed by an atonement to counter the evil deeds done by the possessed mortal, is sufficient to repair the damage done to their minds and souls initially, each week after the initial possession the probability of such spells repairing the damage done decreases by 10%. After this period, even if the Anathema is somehow forced out of the mortal’s body without killing them their mind and soul have been so corrupted by the Anathema’s deranged thoughts that they have become Neutral Evil and openly detect as such, and are condemned to suffer in Gehenna after death. 

Furthermore, to permanently eliminate an Anathema from the Mortal Coil that has seized a host is extremely difficult. Killing a victim possessed by an Anathema acts as a form of Forbidden Magic which brings the Anathema into The Mortal Coil as if it was called. If an Anathema can successfully be defeated in such circumstances, it will be banished to Gehenna as described earlier, although even this does not permanently destroy it but rather means that there will be only a temporary respite at best from the Anathema’s evil while it reforms and plots vengeance. For this reason, whenever Anathema are encountered, a more common tactic against them is imprisonment by mortals, giving rise to legends of beings of incredible horror, which are bound into seals or symbols. The saving throw DC’s are Wisdom-based. 

Rejuvenation (Ex): An Anathema that is slain is confined to Gehenna for one year per hit dice, and is only permanently destroyed if slain in Mungoth. 

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will: blasphemy, brain spider, charm monster, damning darkness, deeper darkness, desecrate, detect evil, detect good, disintegrate, false sending, greater dispel magic, hold monster, improved invisibility (self only), magic circle against good, mind fog, mirage arcana, mirror sending, modify memory, morality undone, polymorph (self only), scrying, spiritwall, steal life, suggestion (mass), telekinesis, greater teleport (self plus 1,000 pounds), unhallow, unholy aura, unholy blight, weird. 7/day: bestow greater curse, mindrape 1/day: legend lore, soul dominion. An Anathema casts it’s spell-like abilities at 34th level. Saving throws against it’s spell-like abilities are DC 25 + spell level, except for Enchantments which have saving throws of DC 26 + spell level. The saving throw DC’s are Charisma-based. 


I tried to stay as true to the original as possible and added a couple nasty surprises for those who would ordinarily know what to expect. The challenge rating has been increased accordingly.


----------



## Pssthpok

If you've been banned from DF, I doubt very strongly that such a decision will be reversed. Sorry. I don't have the authority to ban or "unban" (i.e. I'm not an admin), but I know it takes a lot to get banned - a unanimous move by the moderators. As such, it takes more than a 'whoops, didn't think you were serious' to get back on the board.
Back to topic.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Zoatebix mate! 



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Perhaps an easier and more predictable way of generating a cadre of lieutenants would be to work down from the Cohort - or even replace the single Cohort with some group of multiple lieutenants of equivalent encounter level?




Yes the Cohort is the key to creating Sub-Cohorts.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Figuring it out exactly would be hard without seeing the rest of Yeenoghu's stats.   Still, the basic facts you gave are that he has a "base" Leadership score of 82 and 483600 level 1 followers.  This could come about normally with a Leadership score of 4866, but this clearly has nothing to do with your method.  The fact that it is exactly 93 times the normal number of 1st-level followers is what gives the method away.  Now, deciding how to come to 93 is a more complicated issue, since there are many factors that it could derive from and those factors could be either multiplicative or additive.  Since 93 has only 3 and 31 as prime factors, this limits the possibilities for multiplicative factors.
> 
> C'mon, give us some credit here.




Impressive...most impressive.

3 Could be the number of Layers ruled...but whats that 31 I wonder?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail mate! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> He also said that it wasn't necesarilly the option he wanted to go with.




The "I was just following orders" excuse doesn't get anyone out of jail.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Your fight isn't with him,




Of course not, If you read my posts you'll see I went out of my way to specify that my argument was against the reasoning behind why things were done the way they were. Not against Mr. Jacobs and not against the book itself.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> and complaining that he isn't explaining it "enough" is a little disingenious, when he has replied plenty of times,




People made some initial comments and James Jacobs responded with some comments of his own. 

I took his replies head on, point by point. Rebuked every single one and then proceeded to explain to him* how it could actually have been done better.

*After he limped in with "I don't see how we could have done it better."

I'm not complaining that he didn't then respond to my points, because as I stated, his position was indefensible.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> and other people address some points in your post.




Psion selectively addressed some of my points, but he certainly didn't invalidate a single one, and I replied to each point he made.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Your comment just felt a little, I dunno, bitchy to me: the geeky equivilant of Patty and Selma mocking Homer when he's out the room.  ;-)




I'm simply calling it like I see it. While I may respect him, I'm not going to mollycoddle him or WotC. I expect everyone of you to treat me exactly the same. Designers should not be above reproach. If something doesn't make sense, then call them on it, because if you don't they just keep getting away with sloppy design.

Everything I posted in the big thread on the General Discussion Forum was constructive criticism. I not only rebuked every point he made I also explained how it could be done much better.

When constructive criticism is deemed 'bitchy' then its a case of political correctness gone absolutely mad.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Perhaps I'm overly concerned with the tone on this topic since I saw at least one poster I quite liked up until then post some pretty harsh stuff on that thread which soured me to them.  I'd like if I kept all the piles of respect I have for you, that's all.  :-D




Frankly I'd lose more respect for someone if they didn't stand up for their cause, provided such opinion is backed by objective argument and not just subjective point of view.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> I think that's a better way of doing what I think you're trying to do: giving higher level characters more associates of note, rather than just endless waves of ECL 1 drones.




Exactly.

Especially the massive gap between your top servants and the Cohort. Its just going to be massive. You need something in between to take on possible PC party threats because 200,000 ECL 1 petitioners are not going to do diddly squat against 30th-level PCs.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there dante! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Preordered ascension and even did a revision of my favorite creature...the Anathema....which is originally from the dice freaks website.




While I appreciate the abominations you keep designing, do you think you could refrain from having to post the entire Abomination introduction and tables, each and every darn time you post an Abomination? Thanks.   



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Which reminds me...can someone get me unbanned from there. Its not my fault I share a computer with an evil nutball. Who also sends his apologies. For what...I have no idea. But knowing him...he probably stepped on a few toes. Not that its difficult to do that in forums. Anyway...if someone can get me unbanned it would be great. My friends dicefreaks name was fanatic. I dont remember mine.




I don't know how long such bans generally last, though I suspect your friend would have been given a warning or two first and must have continued to disregard the moderators. So you do the crime you have to pay the time. Same thing happened to my boisterous friend Anubis here on ENWorld.

I must say I find it weird that you both use the same computer and that you don't remember the name you used at dicefreaks. That your friend has seemingly also got you banned is something you should have addressed when he got his first warning.

Maybe they'll only ban you both for a year? But regardless, it'll teach you both how to behave on message boards in future.


----------



## Alzrius

Twin Rose said:
			
		

> Let me know if it's working for you still - it might be just a couple of cases, or maybe the gateway company of the debit card, not "visa" debit per se.




I'd like to help you out on that one, but I haven't done any internet shopping recently, mostly due to a lack of fundage. I do hope the Visa debit thing gets resolved quickly though, as I do plan to do more shopping on the EN Gamestore in the future.



> _Also I'm pretty sure that paypal itself will elt you add a 'paypal balance' via debit no problem - I've never tried myself though.  Anyway, I'm definately investigating._




Thanks for all your hard work on this and other issues!


----------



## Alzrius

You've been outed U_K!!!

I just now noticed this announcement over on Mongoose Publishing's site (emphasis mine):



> Flaming Cobra is a new imprint by Mongoose Publishing, designed to bring the very best of PDF and 'Indy' RPG publishers to a wider market in your local games stores and book shops.
> 
> We have combed the world to find these indy publishers and design studios and are confident that our partners are second to none. Starting in August 2006, you will find such treats as the all new Spycraft range (Crafty Games) in the Flaming Cobra line up, soon to be joined by acclaimed titles such as The Immortals Handbook, Secret Societies and the much-awaited Cthulhutech.




So now we know who to go to for our print copies of the IH! Congratulations U_K!


----------



## Knight Otu

Didn't Mongoose have their own Book of Immortals, or what the title was?


----------



## Alzrius

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Didn't Mongoose have their own Book of Immortals, or what the title was?




Mongoose did make a _Book of Immortals_ in 2004, but that's fairly old news now, and was in-house, not an indie publisher. I'm 99.9% sure they're talking about U_K's book now.

As an aside, U_K reviewed Mongoose's BoI on his site.


----------



## Knight Otu

Yeah, I was just expressing my surprise that they'd "retread" that topic in that case.




Wait, they are the guys with the Quintessential X II series. Carry on posting.


----------



## dante58701

The reason I dont remember my name on that site is because I used it only once before. Most times the computer just automatically logged me in under his profile. He's since found his own apartment, but its kind of annoying being banned for something I had no part of. Hopefully the ban doesnt last forever. I really liked that site. As for the Abominations...Ill try to render them less frequent and shorter on the info. I can see how that would clutter things up. About ascension...when does that come out? And whats the WOTC arguement about. Was there something illogical about their latest book. I missed out on the whole thing.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> You've been outed U_K!!!
> 
> I just now noticed this announcement over on Mongoose Publishing's site (emphasis mine):
> 
> So now we know who to go to for our print copies of the IH! Congratulations U_K!




Yes, the shackles are now off and I can reveal that it is indeed Mongoose Publishing (under the Flaming Cobra imprint) which will be handling print versions of all Immortals Handbook line books.

Just wanted to reiterate that I am very happy to be working with them and they have been very supportive from the beginning.   

The Bestiary is pecilled in for September 2006 and Ascension is pencilled in for December 2006. I will give the exact dates when I myself have them.

I uploaded the new Bestiary cover to my website.

www.immortalshandbook.com


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Knight Otu matey! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Didn't Mongoose have their own Book of Immortals, or what the title was?




Weirdly enough I got talking to one of the Mongoose staff last year at Belfast's Q-Con and he offered to put in a good word for me with the high-ups and I said to him not to bother because Mongoose already had the Book of Immortals and I was sure they wouldn't want my book(s) as well.

...shows what I know.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Yeah, I was just expressing my surprise that they'd "retread" that topic in that case.
> 
> Wait, they are the guys with the Quintessential X II series. Carry on posting.




Exactly, so expect to see print versions of just about every book I do. In the short term thats just the six main books (Ascension, Grimoire, Chronicle and the 3 Bestiay Volumes), but it bodes very well for the Immortals Index 20 installments. 

...after that, who knows.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Yes, the shackles are now off and I can reveal that it is indeed Mongoose Publishing (under the Flaming Cobra imprint) which will be handling print versions of all Immortals Handbook line books.
> 
> Just wanted to reiterate that I am very happy to be working with them and they have been very supportive from the beginning.




Cool -- although I had no doubt the IH would be "picked up" as it were.


----------



## Fieari

How's the playtest document comming, Krust?  I have to reschedule with my group...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> How's the playtest document comming, Krust?  I have to reschedule with my group...




Give me a few days and I'll have something for the playtesters to chew on. 

Its a bit of a heatwave here in the UK at the moment (although not so bad today) and I have been absolutely melting at the computer this past week.

Sorry about forcing you to reschedule. 

You'll have something before this weekend.


----------



## GQuail

UK: I'm not going to push this topic any further, as all that can do is cause a argument from another thread to ooze all over this one, and like I said, such a thing might cause me to lose the immense respect I hold for all parties present.  ;-)

It has, however, motivated me to post a thread to the General forum.  

And yeah, it has been roasting, hasn't it? TToday is the first day in about a week I haven't been utterly melting.


----------



## dante58701

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They emptied my bookshelf...Ive preordered ascension...but now Im not going to get it because somehow my Enworld Bookshelf was deleted. And I didnt do it. HElp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok..maybe Im being a bit dramatic...but thats still money gone by by. And I didnt even have a say in it. Anyone have a clue on how to fix this?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail mate! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> UK: I'm not going to push this topic any further, as all that can do is cause a argument from another thread to ooze all over this one, and like I said, such a thing might cause me to lose the immense respect I hold for all parties present.  ;-)




Well I have already stated my case, thats enough for me.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> It has, however, motivated me to post a thread to the General forum.




So I see.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> And yeah, it has been roasting, hasn't it? TToday is the first day in about a week I haven't been utterly melting.




Its been even worse for me than last summer. Since I moved the computer into my own 'office space' upstairs the heat is unreal, not to mention my once comfortable leather office chair has now become a liability in this oven.

Fortunately the UK (or Belfast at least) generally only has a few hot weeks each year.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> They emptied my bookshelf...Ive preordered ascension...but now Im not going to get it because somehow my Enworld Bookshelf was deleted. And I didnt do it. HElp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Ok..maybe Im being a bit dramatic...but thats still money gone by by. And I didnt even have a say in it. Anyone have a clue on how to fix this?




I am sure if you email or private nmessage Chris (aka Twin Rose who posted in this thread a few days ago) he will help sort you out.


----------



## paradox42

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I am sure if you email or private nmessage Chris (aka Twin Rose who posted in this thread a few days ago) he will help sort you out.



Quoted For Truth.

Chris was quite helpful in my case, even though as it eventually turned out I had to use a credit card instead of my debit to get the transaction to work. Thanks Chris!


----------



## dante58701

But it isnt a matter of a transaction. The transaction has come and gone...but days later....all my bookshelf stuff vanished. For no reason that I can fathom. Ill try to message him. I hate it when things go badly.


----------



## dante58701

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got my files back. These people rock!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the help krusty...and you too twin rose. And anyone else who may have helped.   Bwahahahahaha...now nothing will stop my Werebrachyurus of Legend from becoming a deity.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante dude! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I got my files back. These people rock!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Thanks for the help krusty...and you too twin rose. And anyone else who may have helped.   Bwahahahahaha...now nothing will stop my Werebrachyurus of Legend from becoming a deity.




I think Chris deserves all the credit*, but I am very glad you got everything sorted out mate. Although obviously I would have sent you a copy even if things hadn't been sorted. 

*since I didn't actually do anything.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
I have a quick question, regarding your Artifact rules. You mentioned there may be a CR and/ or ECL multiplyer for Transcendant and Omnific abilities. Does this also modify what level of equipment I can carry? So if a 5000th level Timelord gets, say, Infinite Strength, and Omnific abilities multiply your ECL by, say, 10, does that Timelord qualify for level 50,000 gear? And does gear that bestows such powerful abilities (Transcendant +) modify the CR and or ECL of the owner?


----------



## dante58701

Can an abomination become a more poweerful deity...and if so...what kind of template would one use. What particular rules are there regarding this. And if an abomination lost their quasi-divine nature , what would, for example...an anakim look like as a result. Is there a template for stipping powerful beings of their power? Im curious about this because super powerful beings who lose to super powerful beings are often imprisoned or stripped of there power. Perhaps you could make a template that covers fallen gods and fallen god-spawn?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I have a quick question, regarding your Artifact rules. You mentioned there may be a CR and/ or ECL multiplyer for Transcendant and Omnific abilities.




I am still not convinced that is the best way to handle things.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Does this also modify what level of equipment I can carry? So if a 5000th level Timelord gets, say, Infinite Strength, and Omnific abilities multiply your ECL by, say, 10, does that Timelord qualify for level 50,000 gear? And does gear that bestows such powerful abilities (Transcendant +) modify the CR and or ECL of the owner?




Its a complex turn of events. ECL determines artifacts, so whichever way it ends up, thats a definite.

But I see what you mean, ECL begets items, items beget more ECL, its potentially a never-ending spiral.

At the moment I am using a flat rate, Omnific Special Armour and Weapon Abilities start at +400 and up.

Although to be honest I am not sure that Time Lords will even carry any equipment...although I am sure if PCs want to play Time Lords (!?) they will not pass up the opportunity to have uber items.

I'm of the opinion that although the maximum you can possess is four artifacts, most immortals will carry three, with one other a relic carried by worshippers. Whereas sidereals will probably carry one, with three others carried by immortals/cultists. Naturally PCs can do as they please and carry from 0-4.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi dante mate! 

By the way I got your email, apologies for not replying as yet, I will do sometime today.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Can an abomination become a more poweerful deity...




Yes.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> and if so...what kind of template would one use.




The divinity and portfolio templates in the Immortals Handbook: Ascension.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> What particular rules are there regarding this.




Lots.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> And if an abomination lost their quasi-divine nature,




You would remove all their quasi-deity template.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> what would, for example...an anakim look like as a result.




It would probably 'look' the same. Obviously its stats and aboilities would be affected.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Is there a template for stipping powerful beings of their power?




Just subtract a Quasi-deity (or whichever) template from them.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> I'm curious about this because super powerful beings who lose to super powerful beings are often imprisoned or stripped of there power. Perhaps you could make a template that covers fallen gods and fallen god-spawn?




I have quick rules for this which basically involves a divine penalty with the imprisoned deity recovering at a rate equal to its rejuvenation ability once freed.


----------



## dante58701

That is awesome, I think I'll avoid Time Lords myself and use them as NPC encounters. Im going to play an Old One. So are my fellow gamers. A party of Old Ones walking around in Manhatten just beating up other Old Ones walking around Manhatten. Should be like playing uber heroes vs. uber villians. And it's gonna be loads of fun. Very anime in a lot of ways too.
as for equipment...I think most of the party will go the route of no equipment. But some will undoubtedly have a few items. We try not to overdo the..."Look what I've got!!!" scenario.


----------



## dante58701

Well...I feel stupid, I just realized my account here doesnt accept emails. I fixed that tho. I wonder why I did that, musta been tired. Well...I can get emails now.


----------



## dante58701

*Can somebody check my math?*

ABOMINATION, WOODSY LADY/WOODSY LORD 
Medium Outsider (Abomination, Fey, Plant, Evil, Extraplanar) 
Hit Dice: 35d8+280 (560 hp) 
Initiative: +13 (+5 Dexterity, +4 Divine, +4 Improved Initiative) 
Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares), burrow (soil) 40 ft. 
Armor Class: 48 (+5 Dexterity, +4 divine, +16 natural, +13 deflection), touch 32, flat-footed 43
Base Attack/Grapple: +35/+53 
Attack: Tendril (lash) +53 melee (1d6+14/19-20) 
Full Attack: 12 tendrils (12 lashes) +53 melee (1d6+14/19-20) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./20 ft. (tendrils) 
Special Attacks: Breath weapon, constrict, enslave, improved grab, puppets, renew deadwood, spell-like abilities, spells, summon dryads, swallow whole 
Special Qualities: Abomination traits, cold immunity, damage reduction 15/epic, good, and slashing, fire resistance 15, germinate, life drain, outsider traits, plant traits, regeneration 15, scent, spell resistance 49, trackless step, tremorsense
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +23, Will +33 
Abilities: Str 38, Dex 21, Con 27, Int 35, Wis 49, Cha 51 
Skills: Bluff +40, Climb +40, Concentration +40, Diplomacy +40, Hide +40*, Intimidate +40, Jump +40, Knowledge (arcana) +40, Knowledge (nature) +40, Knowledge (religion) +40, Knowledge (the planes) +40, Listen +40, Move Silently +40, Perform (stringed instruments), Search +40, Sense Motive +40, Spellcraft +40, Spot +40, Swim +40, Use Magic Device +40 
Feats: Alertness, Enlarge Spell, Empower Spell, Improved Critical (lash), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (lash), Leadership (B), Maximize Spell, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (spellcraft), Still Spell, Track (B), Widen Spell 
Epic Feats: Permanent Emanation (shapechange) (B) *New epic feat - see page 3 
Environment: Dense forest or jungle (prime material world) 
Organization: Solitary or with puppets (0-5), or troupe: elemental swarm, evil druids, evil dryads, fey, and shamblers 
Challenge Rating: 35 (+1 per puppet) 
Treasure: Triple Standard 
Alignment: Always neutral evil 
Advancement: 36-70 HD (Large), 71+ HD (Gargantuan) 
Level Adjustment: +10

A great seething mass of vibrant green whip-like tendrils sprouts forth from the sides of a seductively alluring fey creature. Wisps and trails of a purplish gas seep from its skin. Its movement is not unlike that of a scurrying spider and it seems unnaturally fast for a creature of disposition. Some of its tendrils entwine captive humanoids, suspending them off the ground like puppets. These victims have palpitating sickly green skin, as if they have become living extensions of the woodsy lady/woodsy lord itself. Almost nymph-like in it's beauty, it is alien in it's psychology, for it is imagining foreboding events of a nature you could only scarcely imagine. As it retracts it tendrils into it's flesh, you begin to feel more at ease. It's provocative form enticing you with it's every step. By the time you feel yourself changing, it is far too late. And as your feverishly maddened screams and whimpers echo through the night, you begin to pray for death. 

Woodsy Ladies/Woodsy Lords are the once tendings of great deities of nature, corrupted or tainted by some unholy outside source. Related to odiums, these hateful beings seek to spread sorrow and misery throughout the cosmos by enslaving whole worlds. Once a planet has been targeted for domination the woodsy lady/woodsy lord settles in some backwater village using its enchantment magic to control the populace. Slowly but surely it extends its network of submission, spreading its evil roots until it encompasses the entire planet, or in some rare cases, until its expansion is checked by some equally powerful force. As they are fey, they come in both male and female varieties, although they have no need of one another to reproduce. Furthermore, they are far more resilient than their size would indicate. Thus they rival even the more powerful odium. 

Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords are fiercely territorial and generally only one will inhabit a single world at a time, although rival woodsy ladies/woodsy lords or odium are not unheard of. On rare occasions numbers of these creatures will work together to combat a significantly powerful enemy such as a pantheon of gods. Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords regard mortals similar to how mortals view their gardens; as an entity to be shaped to their will, tended well when it pleases them and pruned when necessary. 

Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords are revered by evil druids and rangers. Although in such cults its difficult to tell the truly devoted from those magically coerced. In this manner the woodsy lady/woodsy lord guards against infiltration and insubordination, with each member unsure of whom they can trust. Sacrifices are either offered up to the woodsy lady/woodsy lord or dismembered and body parts buried in the ground. Their few clerics can choose their domains from the following: Darkness, Earth, Evil, and Plant. They may grant these clerics up to 7th level spells. Which is why their primary followers are druids, who command far more power,and rangers. 

Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords are about 6 feet tall and weigh almost 440 pounds. 

COMBAT 

Should the woodsy lady/woodsy lord see a target as a potentially useful puppet it will avoid using lethal attacks, instead trying to dominate, incapacitate or otherwise subdue such an opponent so that it may be enslaved. Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords generally seek to work through intermediaries and not draw attention to their machinations, however, if pressed they are deadly opponents. Although they are of humanoid build, they refuse to fight as such, relying instead upon their retractable tendrils. A woodsy lady/woodsy lord disdains combat in general and would far prefer to avoid anything truly dangerous. Vengeful and vindictive in the extreme, they will often spend centuries plotting an enemies demise. 

An woodsy lady's/woodsy lord’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons it wields are treated as epic and evil-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. It never uses its fists, although if it did they would count as epic, evil-aligned, and bludgeoning for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction, while it's tendrils are epic, evil-aligned, and piercing or slashing. 

Abomination Traits: 

• Divine Traits: Abominations are effectively quasi-deities and as such add a +4 divine bonus to: armor class; attack rolls; checks (ability checks, caster level checks, skill checks, turning checks); difficulty class (for any special abilities, spell-like abilities, spells); initiative; saving throws and spell resistance. 

• Immunities: Abominations are immune to enchantment, illusionist and transmutation magic. They are not subject to energy drain, ability damage or drain. 

• Special Qualities: Abominations are not subject to death from massive damage and have maximum hit points per hit die. 

• Telepathy: Abominations can communicate telepathically with any creature within 1000 feet that has a language. 

• Virtual Size Category: Most abominations have at least 15 points of strength beyond the average for creatures of that size and as such gain a Virtual Size Category. 

Breath Weapon (Variable): The noxious breath of the woodsy lady/woodsy lord has several detrimental effects, unleashing as it does, the very effects all plants are immune to. The breath weapon itself is a cone of gas 30 ft. long and lasts until the end of the next round unless dispersed by strong winds. They may also emit this same gas from their skin, causing the area within a 15' radius to be filled with this noxious vapor. This does not, however, allow the woodsy lady/woodsy lord to utilize this attack more than it would otherwise be able. When used in this manner, it has the same duration and may be similarly dispersed by strong winds. Targets are assailed by the following properties: 

• Confusion (Su): Will save (DC 50) to negate, duration 35 minutes. 

• Paralysis (Ex): Fortitude save (DC 39) to negate, duration 35 minutes. 

• Poison (Ex): Fortitude save (DC 39), 1d10/1d10 Constitution damage. 

• Polymorphing (Su): Fortitude save (DC 50) or be polymorphed into a frog. 

• Sleep (Ex): Will save (DC 39) to negate, duration 35 minutes. 

• Weakness (Su): Fortitude save (DC 50), or suffer 1d10 Strength damage. 

The woodsy lady/woodsy lord can use this breath weapon every 1d4 rounds. The save DCs are either Charisma (supernatural) or Constitution (extraordinary) based. 

Constrict (Ex): The woodsy lady/woodsy lord will constrict any grappled victim that it cannot enslave for 1d6+21 damage. 

Enslave (Su): Any target successfully grappled by the woodsy lady/woodsy lord must make a Will save (DC 39) or become a puppet under its control. Such targets become an extension of the woodsy lady/woodsy lord itself, its sap flows through their veins. Such creatures turn green, if not already, and fight for the woodsy lady/woodsy lord while it retains its hold on them, their abilities replace one of the woodsy lady's/woodsy lord’s tendril attacks. These puppets also gain plant traits for the duration of their servitude. Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords generally keep at least half their tendrils free for movement and self defense. Puppets employ the full range of their abilities in the woodsy lady's/woodsy lord’s defense, though obviously they cannot move outside the woodsy lady's/woodsy lord’s reach. Puppets somehow freed from the woodsy lady/woodsy lord should be treated as if nauseated for 1d6 rounds after release and sickened for a further 1d6 minutes as their bodies expunge themselves of the woodsy lady's/woodsy lord’s invasive fluids. The character retains the plant traits until it is no longer nauseated. 

Germinate (Ex): The woodsy lady/woodsy lord can plant a seed which, upon their death will grow into a clone of the original within 35 days (gaining 1 Hit Dice/day). Only a fully grown woodsy lady/woodsy lord can germinate in this manner and only one seed can exist for each woodsy lady/woodsy lord at a given time. Typically the woodsy ladies/woodsy lords plant their seeds far from their base of operations in unassuming locales. These areas are usually warded against detection and guarded by forces loyal to the woodsy lady/woodsy lord. Should a seed pod be destroyed while the woodsy lady/woodsy lord is still living the abomination takes 35d8 damage (average 167). It takes a day, during which time the woodsy lady/woodsy lord can take no other actions, for a woodsy lady/woodsy lord to create a new seed pod. 

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the woodsy lady/woodsy lord must hit with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can either constrict or attempt to enslave the target. 

Life Drain (Ex): When injured, half the damage dealt to a woodsy lady/woodsy lord with one or more enslaved targets is absorbed by one of its puppets. 

Outsider Traits: Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords have darkvision (60 foot range). They cannot be raised or resurrected. 

Plant Traits: Immune to poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning and polymorphing. Not subject to critical hits or mind-affecting effects. 

Puppets (Su): A woodsy lady/woodsy lord will have 1d6-1 puppets at any given time. Puppets will generally be medium sized or smaller humanoid NPCs of level 1d10+20. Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords prefer arcane spellcasters and warrior types as puppets if the choice presents itself. 

Regeneration (Su): A woodsy lady/woodsy lord takes normal damage from weapons that are both epic and good-aligned, and spells or effects with the good descriptor. 

Renew Deadwood (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, a woodsy lady/woodsy lord can produce an effect like that of a warp wood spell (caster level equals the woodsy lady's/woodsy lord's racial hit dice), except, it affects only dead wood. Any wooden objects affected by this ability turn into living plants that root themselves when they come in contact with the ground. A woodsy lady/woodsy lord cannot “unwarp” wood or return it to it's normal shape with this ability. 

Scent (Ex): A woodsy lady/woodsy lord can detect approaching enemies and sniff out hidden foes by sense of smell alone. See the MM for details of this quality. 

Skills (Ex): The woodsy lady/woodsy lord gains a +20 racial bonus on Climb checks when using all 12 tendril (-2 per tendril not being used, it needs a minimum 2 tendrils to attempt a climb). When so climbing, or otherwise using their tendrils for mobility, their speed is increased to 140 ft., Burrow 70ft. . Furthermore, a woodsy lady/woodsy lord has a +10 racial bonus on Knowledge (nature), Listen, Spot, and Survival checks. A woodsy lady/woodsy lord may use it's Knowledge (nature) check as though trained, even if it possesses no ranks in the skill. Finally, it also has a +4 racial bonus on Hide* and Move Silently checks. These modifiers are not accounted for in the above statistics, nor are ability modifiers. 

*The Hide bonus increases to +12 in swampy or forested areas. 

Spell-like Abilities (Sp): At will - animate plants, bark skin, calm animals, command plants, control plants, create water, entangle, pass without trace, plant growth, purify food and drink, repel wood, treestride, treeshape, wall of thorns, 3/day - dominate monster, imprisonment, mass hold monster, power word kill, shapechange (unlimited duration); 1/day - commune with nature, endure elements, goodberry, liveoak, mass frog, quench, transmute metal to wood, verdigris,woodshape (living wood only), 1/week - verdigris tsunami. Caster Level 54th; Save DC 30 + spell level. 

Spells (Sp): Woodsy ladies/woodsy lords cast spells as 17th-level Druids (half their Hit Dice rounded down). Caster level 39th. The save DCs are Wisdom-based. Typical Druid Spells Prepared (6/10/10/10/9/8/8/8/7/6); save DC 29 + spell level): 0 - detect magic (2), flare, guidance, read magic (2); 1st - charm animal, hide from animals, longstrider, magic fang, obscuring mist (4), pass without trace, summon natures ally I; 2nd - bear’s endurance, bull’s strength, cat’s grace, fog cloud, heat metal, owl’s wisdom, spider climb (3), tree shape; 3rd - call lightning, contagion, dominate animal, poison (4), snare (2), spike growth; 4th - air walk, blight, dispel magic (4), rusting grasp, scrying, spike stones; 5th - animal growth, baleful polymorph (2), commune with nature, insect plague (2), transmute mud to rock, unhallow; 6th - anti-life shell, greater dispel magic (3), move earth, transport via plants (3); 7th – control weather, creeping doom (4), greater scrying, summon natures ally VII, wind walk; 8th - earthquake, finger of death, horrid wilting, reverse gravity (2), summon natures ally VIII, word of recall; 9th - elemental swarm, foresight, shambler, storm of vengeance, summon natures ally IX, sympathy.

Summon Dryads (Sp): The woodsy lady/woodsy lord can summon a six neutral evil dryads once per day. Duration 20 rounds. This is the equivalent of a 12th-level spell. Epic spell DC 60. 

Swallow Whole (Ex): A woodsy lady/woodsy lord can attempt to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two size categories smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside the opponent takes 1d4+6 crushing damage and in addition is subjected to the woodsy lady's/woodsy lord’s breath weapon. A swallowed creature can cut its way out using a slashing or piercing weapon to deal 35 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 18). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. 

Trackless Step (Ex): A woodsy lady/woodsy lord leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. It may, however, choose to leave a trail if if desires. 

Tremorsense (Ex): A woodsy lady/woodsy lord can automatically sense the location of anything within 100 ft. that is in contact with the ground or with an object (such as a tree) that is in contact with the ground.


I made this using the basic odium, albeit modified for a more woodsy lady/woodsly lord form...and added the green warden template from the advanced bestiary. Then I took the ability score points it lost from it's physical scores and applied them to its mental scores instead. I intended for this thing to be alluring, intelligent, and above all deadly. It is also intended for a Call of Cthulhu style campaign revolving around druids, plants, rogues, and the end of all life as we know it. Essentially the campaign will be modeled slightly after the popular game called Thief. Which was a favorite of mine for many years, and still is. Although, this world is going to be far more epic in scale. The Keepers will be Half-Glooms (anyone have a template for that?), the Hammers will be insane Paladins, the remaining Creatures will all be more or less taken from various sources. Additions? Advice? Comments? Questions?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> That is awesome, I think I'll avoid Time Lords myself and use them as NPC encounters.




Use them sparingly is my suggestion. 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im going to play an Old One. So are my fellow gamers.




Cool. Although just remember, the higher you go the less published opponents you'll be able to draw upon. Even I have to taper things to a point.   



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> A party of Old Ones walking around in Manhatten just beating up other Old Ones walking around Manhatten. Should be like playing uber heroes vs. uber villians. And it's gonna be loads of fun. Very anime in a lot of ways too.




Its begging for someone to animate the Statue of Liberty as a Steel Leviathan.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> as for equipment...I think most of the party will go the route of no equipment. But some will undoubtedly have a few items. We try not to overdo the..."Look what I've got!!!" scenario.




Yes, you wouldn't want to overdo things.   

By the way that Wood Lord Abomination thing of yours doesn't meet the Hit Dice requirements for a Medium Abomination (It should have between 27 and 38), I always use a multiple of 5 for my Abominations.


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## dante58701

Could you maybe give it a run over statistically and give it the final seal of approval so to speak? I want it to be official...and since ur officially the official regarding such things, and the only existing official there is, it would be absolutely splendid if you could. I would bow down and worship you forever. Ok...a bit dramatic. It's probably just sufficient to say it would be very appreciated and highly commended. I''ll fix the hit dice first, then you can give me the corrections.


There...statistically altered. Are the level and the DC correct for the Summon Dryads ability ? I was kinda winging it when I did that. The physical ability scores are essentially base + green warden. The mental ability scores I configured as noted above. I figured, sure, they aren't massive and overwhelming against an odium. But they have brains to make up for the lack of brawn. But, like the odium, they are very territorial. An essential flaw in any creature that desires to survive. Large numbers mean harder to eliminate. Solitary creatures are easier to pick off. But being intellectuals, they make up for not being able to decimate their enemies with brute force. Ive always had a thing for brainy monsters, must be my inner geek.


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## Fieari

No offense Dante, but I'd rather Krust finish the playtest document first.


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## dante58701

Aye, agreed...I keep forgetting about that. For some reason I keep thinking it's done.

On another note, saw Hordes of the Abyss...no offense to wizards of the coast or anything, but...I gotta say...when I saw the stats for grazzt...all that kept running through my mind was one simple statement....

"Under 30 HD? His left nut maybe !!!"

I just was horrified to see a creature, who controls an entire layer of the abyss, so statistically emaciated. Christ, I was hoping they would actually deify him. After all, he does rule an entire layer of the abyss (or more in some books) which is the equivalent of a universe. For it's dimensions are infinite in scale. I mean, how do they figure a mere speck of bibble like him could ever hope to shove around a mighty balor. Have they forgotten that balors are practically gods!!??

Ill get the book...but Im using those stats for aspects...not for the real deal. They are vastly underpowered when one thinks of the chaotic and violent abyss in any realistic way. The abyss is about power, it always has been. Jeez, some drow are more dangerous than grazzt. Id hate to see how there gonna mangle gehenna (which they largely ignore) and hell (which they focus on a bit much). And dont get me started on the picture of baphomet. Hes supposed to be goat headed. I dont know why they keep trying to mesh him with minotaurs.
I would love to see someone finally make the fiends properly. And I have a feeling our beloved krusty will show them the way.

THREE CHEERS FOR KRUSTY!!! HIP HIP HURRAY!!! HIP HIP HURRAY!!! HIP HIP HURRAY!!!


One more thing, I know this might not be how the amidah was intended to be used. But in all my campaigns...there are a small handfull of paragons for each species. And for each species there are two amidah. One male amidah and one female amidah. The amidah dont all know one another though, but the male and female amidah of each species instinctively seek each other out. They can feel each others. Although with this variant...the amidah template is species based. Thus...there could be billions of universes and the number of amidah would not increase. For example...drow are in at least three universes...but there would still only be 2 amidah...one male...one female. And they would not necessarily be in the same universe. Also, using this variant, one is born an amidah and cannot somehow acquire the status. Its just left up to fate. This also means that amidah status cannot be stolen or given away. If ur born the amidah...its just your blessing, or curse if you want to be normal. I figured this way would make sense considering that amidah originate from primarily from paragons. Plus, this way there would be balance still. The amidah could form societies, have little paragonlings and destroy one another. But in the end, there would always be 2 amidah for each species. When an amidah dies in one world, another amidah for that species is born elsewhere. This would also work well as an explanation for animal lords.
Animal lords could just simply be the amidah of their species. Of course, there would be no amidah for subspecies, just the species as a whole. Human Amidah, Gorilla Amidah, Feline Amidah. Its a wonderful way to get more use out of such a fascinating template. Just food for thought, but its how we use them. It works out well. Of course, we do follow strict guidelines when using wish. Since in our campaign a wish is basically asking a god for a favor, it tends to come with a hefty price if the "Wishing for more" option is used. If the amidah is itself divine, it either must have a way of granting the wish, or it must ask a more powerful deity for help. Basically like saying..."Daddy...buy me that planet." Of course even divinelings must ultimately pay the price for whining to their betters. So in essence the wish is limited to simple things like...mimicking spells and whatnot. We also use a psionic variant on the amidah theme. because in our campaigns psionics and magic are different. Of course for that we use reality revision...which also has it's own fatal flaws. Well...off to play my Amidah Woodsy Lord.

But before I go...one fundamental question...does an increase in virtual size increase your hit dice due to the extreme density? Or are hit dice unaffected. What would 6 virtual size categories look like without the creature? Would it be like the legendary animal templates?
The ones that mimic the dire animal templates?


----------



## Pssthpok

Virtual size categories don't affect HD. They are obtained through high Strength or density.


----------



## dante58701

Ok, thanks. Wans't sure about that. I figured as much though.


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## Servitor of Wrath

Hey, U_K, I can't get through to your website. The problem may be on my end, but just in case I thought I'd let you know.

Oh, and CR_UNLIMITED, I think Mortiverse would like a word with you.


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## dante58701

*A present for everyone who love Colossus from X-Men*

“Creating an Orichalcum Warrior”

“Orichalcum Warrior” is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature that is not a construct, elemental, or undead (hereafter referred to as the base creature).

An orichalcum warrior uses all the base creature's statistics and special abilities except as note here.

Size and Type: The creature's type remains the same, but it gains the augmented subtype and the orichalcum subtype.

Speed: An orichalcum warrior gains a burrow speed equal to one-half the base creature's highest speed. The base creature loses it's fly ability, if any.

Armor Class: Natural armor improves by the value dictated by it's acquisition of virtual size categories.

Special Attacks: An orichalcum warrior retains all the special attacks of the base creature and also gains the orichalcum strike attack.

Orichalcum Strike (Ex): Once per day, the orichalcum warrior can make an exceptionally vicious attack against any foe that stands on orichalcum, equally dense, or denser materials. The orichalcum warrior adds its constitution bonus to it's attack roll and deals 2d10 extra points of damage per racial Hit Die.

Special Qualities: An orichalcum warrior has all the special attacks of the base creature, plus the following.

Darkvision (Ex): An orichalcum warrior has darkvision out to 60 ft. or the base creature's darkvision, whichever is better.

Damage Reduction (Ex): An orichalcum warrior has a natural hardness of 100.

Fast Healing (Ex): The immense gravitational energy of the orichalcum warrior binds it together allowing it to naturally heal 100 hit points per round.

Immunities (Ex)oison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects. Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion, or energy drain. Immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects, or is harmless). Not at risk of death from massive damage. Does not age. Has no need to eat, sleep, or breath.

Lowlight Vision (Ex): The orichalcum warrior possesses low-light vision.

Supernova (Ex): The death throes of the orichalcum warrior result in a spectacular show of energy much akin to an atomic explosion. The blast effect should be treated as bludgeoning damage.

Radius 	Disintegration 		Fireball 		Blast 		Radiation*
1300 feet 	Fort DC 10+1/2HD+C 	1d6/HD 		1d8/HD 		1/10HD
2300 feet 	- 			1d6/HD 		1d8/HD		1/10HD
1.75 miles -			- 		1d8/HD 		1/10HD
2.75 miles - 			- 		1d8/10HD 	1/100HD
3.75 miles - 			- 		1d8/100HD 	-

*Ability damage to Strength, Dexterity and Constitution.

Unearthly Form (Ex): These cosmic creatures use d100s for Hit Dice. Orichalcum warriors also have maximum hit points per Hit Die.

Virtual Size Categories (Ex): Orichalcum warrior possess 15 virtual size categories and it's statistics are adjusted accordingly. Ability score adjustments are noted below.

Abilities: +225 Strength, -30 Dexterity, +60 Constitution, -2 Intelligence (minimum 1), -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma

Environment: Any.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +20.

Level Adjustment:Same as the base creature +20.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

U_K, you have another $12.50 in your pocket. *rubs hands eagerly*


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Oh, and CR_UNLIMITED, I think Mortiverse would like a word with you.





Who? Oh, that's right...nobody.


----------



## Alzrius

Hey U_K, this is rather overdue, but I've updated my original review of the IH _Epic Bestiary_. That review was based on version 1.2 or so, and it didn't seem fair to keep having people view that the work was only 4/5 stars, based on errors that were no longer there. Sorry that took so long!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Could you maybe give it a run over statistically and give it the final seal of approval so to speak? I want it to be official...and since ur officially the official regarding such things, and the only existing official there is, it would be absolutely splendid if you could. I would bow down and worship you forever. Ok...a bit dramatic. It's probably just sufficient to say it would be very appreciated and highly commended. I''ll fix the hit dice first, then you can give me the corrections.




I'm sorry, but I just don't have time for that.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> There...statistically altered. Are the level and the DC correct for the Summon Dryads ability ? I was kinda winging it when I did that. The physical ability scores are essentially base + green warden. The mental ability scores I configured as noted above. I figured, sure, they aren't massive and overwhelming against an odium. But they have brains to make up for the lack of brawn. But, like the odium, they are very territorial. An essential flaw in any creature that desires to survive. Large numbers mean harder to eliminate. Solitary creatures are easier to pick off. But being intellectuals, they make up for not being able to decimate their enemies with brute force. Ive always had a thing for brainy monsters, must be my inner geek.




All the basics are covered in the Abomination portion of the Epic Bestiary. Hit Dice, stats, Ac etc.

Pick a type of godly portfolio (preferably one that hasn't been used before) then try to create an original look, and if possible 2-3 original abilities. Then hey presto, you have your abomination.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Hey, U_K, I can't get through to your website. The problem may be on my end, but just in case I thought I'd let you know.




I just checked, I think its the webspace provider themselves, who have switched me off because I failed to pay the latest invoice. However, technically it was totally their fault because they didn't actually invoice me (and with the added confusion that they were giving me some free time due to their server crash last October/November I never thought to check of my own volition).

Its only now after checking their website I see I owe them $29.70.

I am also not sure if they accept paypal, so I may need to ask a favour of someone here with a credit card and paypal (they pay the bill, I send them the money via paypal).

Usually I pay via cheque (since I have no credit card) but they are meant to give me 2 weeks notice, and there is no way I can go 10+ days without having the website switched on - especially not at the moment.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hey U_K, this is rather overdue, but I've updated my original review of the IH _Epic Bestiary_. That review was based on version 1.2 or so, and it didn't seem fair to keep having people view that the work was only 4/5 stars, based on errors that were no longer there. Sorry that took so long!




I am stiill surprised that there are no reviews on ENWorld to be honest.   

Perhaps after the Ennies or after the Print Version is released...?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> However, the bookmarks are only for the beginning sections, monsters, and the new material at the end. The myriad new magic weapon qualities, artifacts, and epic spells are not themselves bookmarked.




v1.5 has bookmarks for everything.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> and then presents to example Legendary creatures.




Do you mean two sample Legendary Creatures.

Thanks for the update though mate!


----------



## dante58701

Hmm...unique abomination...nifty idead.


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## Alzrius

B'oh! I knew there were a few grammatical errors in there that I didn't catch. They're all fixed now. Thanks U_K!


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Hey U_K!
Any idea of when/how the playtest document will be distributed? I don't think you want to post it on your site (It is down anyway) but if your site is down does that mean your email isn't working? That might be a good secure means, just to email it to people. 
Barring that, alot of Chat programs (AIM, Yahoo Messenger, MSN Messenger, Skype etc) have File transfer options. I am not too familiar with FTP programs but I have used AIM and Skype to send and recieve files. They are slow though, and the other person has to be online to receive the files (I think they have to click some "OK download" button). 
I hope everything gets worked out.


----------



## Kalitharus

dante,

Would you please quit posting your "creations" all the time? It's bizarre, some of this stuff you post. For example, the Orichalcum Golem has *nothing* to do with Marvels Colossus; the Orichalcum Golem is based off the Asgardian Destroyer, a construct designed to fight the Celestials. Then you go on about having multiple Amidah in your game... just give it a break.

Kal


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Any idea of when/how the playtest document will be distributed?




When its finished which doesn't look like it will be before Sunday (I am at Q-Con on Saturday) and probably will take me until Monday/Tuesday at this rate. Even then that will only be for half the Playtest document. Technically it should only take me a 2-3 days to finish off each chapter. 

But I have just been panicking (as usual) and worrying, when I should be finishing.

I am up to my old tricks again, of doing a bit here and there instead of going through it one page at a time and getting it sorted.

Sorry about the delay guys, but this is me remember.   

In the meantime I'll add the contents page to the preview in about 20 minutes...technically its only 2/3rds of the content page (since its 1 1/2 pages) but that will work to keep a few surprises in store a little longer. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I don't think you want to post it on your site (It is down anyway) but if your site is down does that mean your email isn't working? That might be a good secure means, just to email it to people.
> Barring that, alot of Chat programs (AIM, Yahoo Messenger, MSN Messenger, Skype etc) have File transfer options. I am not too familiar with FTP programs but I have used AIM and Skype to send and recieve files. They are slow though, and the other person has to be online to receive the files (I think they have to click some "OK download" button).
> I hope everything gets worked out.




Don't worry about playtest distribution, I'll be doing that via email, which is unaffeceted by my current website woes which I plan to have sorted soon anyway.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Kalitharus mate! 



			
				Kalitharus said:
			
		

> dante,
> 
> Would you please quit posting your "creations" all the time? It's bizarre, some of this stuff you post. For example, the Orichalcum Golem has *nothing* to do with Marvels Colossus; the Orichalcum Golem is based off the Asgardian Destroyer, a construct designed to fight the Celestials. Then you go on about having multiple Amidah in your game... just give it a break.




Easy tiger! No need for hostility. I already had a word with dante earlier.

I like some of his off the wall ideas and campaign stuff, and appreciate his enthusiasm. Although I think the thread is better served by posting his ideas and a bit less of mine.   

That said, there is certainly a place for homebrew monsters and characters using parts of the Epic Bestiary...the wikipedia for instance, where all the others are posted. With my website down, I don't have the link at hand though.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Wow, 1 & 1/2 pages? Thats either extreamly detailed or theres alot to cover. (Probobly both). I  can't wait to see it. (However, since I exist in 4 dimentional space, and yet percieve only 3 dimentions, the 4th dimention of time remains outside my realm of perception.)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Ltheb mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Wow, 1 & 1/2 pages? Thats either extreamly detailed or theres alot to cover. (Probobly both). I  can't wait to see it. (However, since I exist in 4 dimentional space, and yet percieve only 3 dimentions, the 4th dimention of time remains outside my realm of perception.)




The Table of Contents is now up, although you only get the first page.

http://shop.enworld.org/index.php?productsid=846&source=Front Page

There are a few minor mistakes I have noticed (and already changed) like Chapter One being called Ascension when its actually called Apotheosis.

Incidently I just did an early build of the Time Lord (aka Dabbat: The Great Beast/The World Beast) at CR 13,333.

The High Lord (who shall remain nameless for now) weighs in at CR 32,888,889*

Both CRs are proprietry but probably not too far off the mark.

*and thats probably below average for a High Lord....I was going to go with one called Domodon Doxomedon who had a CR just under a trillion, but we can save him for another day.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The High Lord (who shall remain nameless for now) weighs in at CR 32,888,889*
> 
> Both CRs are proprietry but probably not too far off the mark.
> 
> *and thats probably below average for a High Lord....I was going to go with one called Domodon Doxomedon who had a CR just under a trillion, but we can save him for another day.




WOW. Just, WOW.
Why even waste time building a neutronium golem? Anything that would even concern such a being would surly lay waste to one. A Strong Symetric Matter Golem on the other hand...

Oh, any reason theres no Air, Earth or Water porfolios, but there are Sky, Mountain, and Sea portfolios? Theres a Fire Portfolio though...
I would have Mountain under an Earth portfolio, any reason as to why this decision was made?

And so few pages for so many feats and powers? Small font, or condensed text?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Incidently I just did an early build of the Time Lord (aka Dabbat: The Great Beast/The World Beast) at CR 13,333.
> 
> The High Lord (who shall remain nameless for now) weighs in at CR 32,888,889*
> 
> Both CRs are proprietry but probably not too far off the mark.
> 
> *and thats probably below average for a High Lord....I was going to go with one called Domodon Doxomedon who had a CR just under a trillion, but we can save him for another day.




 

I must say I'm impressed and much moreso on the basis of content not simply big numbers.

At the risk of coming off as uppity it's my opinion the concept, design, and implementation of Universal/Multiversal/Metaversal/Omniversal is good for roleplaying in general.

Really looking forward to it my man.  

I'm also curious as to whether I've guessed the High Lord.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Incidently I just did an early build of the Time Lord (aka Dabbat: The Great Beast/The World Beast) at CR 13,333.
> 
> The High Lord (who shall remain nameless for now) weighs in at CR 32,888,889*
> 
> *and thats probably below average for a High Lord....I was going to go with one called Domodon Doxomedon who had a CR just under a trillion, but we can save him for another day.



 *shakes head wildly* I just saw and responded to these figures on the WotC boards, but still. Wow.

So...how do ninths figure into immortal CRs? Because these numbers make it apparent that they do.


----------



## Fieari

Link to the WotC thread?  I'd love to see their reactions...

Also, I'm digging the ToC.  When I told my players what they were going to playtest, the first thing they started doing was making up what new portfolios they wanted to play (and, given the somewhat juvenile nature of some members of my group, I did get someone looking for the "Pimp" domain, but someone else wants to be a god of housecats, another is going for a god of alchohol (ala Terry Pratchett, in fact, complete with an Oh-God of Hangovers)...) so I'm VERY glad to see rules for creating your own portfolios... those will be tested, I promise.

Already I'm looking at the portfolios and pondering how they might fit into my "High Phoenix" race...


----------



## historian

Code:
	

Link to the WotC thread? I'd love to see their reactions...


Try here:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=649369

It appears that the Neutronium Golem blew away all but the most staunch.


----------



## Rockhoward56

Hello all! I'm a new member of Enworld.
I've purchased your Epic Bestiary U_K! and it's very good!!!!! thank you very much , still waiting the volume 2 for some freaking news monsters!  
Why the Cr of your Timelord(Dabbat) is so low? ,lol!
Previews of Ascension in a near future?
Juste a question about Alabaster in your Epic Bestiary: he got a initiative of 150 but (60 Dex +60 Luck + 8 Superior Initiative =128) i'm mssing something i guess  

Still waiting Ascension   , i thinking about my Phoenix Cosmic Force like the one in Marvel Comic(First One could be great?)
Ps: I'm French , my english is not great i know


----------



## Sledge

Hiya folks.  I'm busily trying to finish up my semester's work right now so I don't have time to chat, just offering my elation at the progress!
oh and historian your link is to http:/


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> WOW. Just, WOW.




I'll take that as a positive.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Why even waste time building a neutronium golem? Anything that would even concern such a being would surly lay waste to one.




Neutronium Golems are built by Time Lords...High Lords have more powerful constructs.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> A Strong Symetric Matter Golem on the other hand...




Absolutely.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, any reason theres no Air, Earth or Water porfolios, but there are Sky, Mountain, and Sea portfolios? Theres a Fire Portfolio though...
> I would have Mountain under an Earth portfolio, any reason as to why this decision was made?




Yes, They sound far cooler, and are far more representative of known mythological beings.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> And so few pages for so many feats and powers? Small font, or condensed text?




Same main body font as the Bestiary.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hi historian matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I must say I'm impressed and much moreso on the basis of content not simply big numbers.




I like to have both covered.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> At the risk of coming off as uppity it's my opinion the concept, design, and implementation of Universal/Multiversal/Metaversal/Omniversal is good for roleplaying in general.
> 
> Really looking forward to it my man.




I appreciate the interest dude! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm also curious as to whether I've guessed the High Lord.




No, no one has.   

I seem to recall you correctly guessing the Demiurge though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> *shakes head wildly* I just saw and responded to these figures on the WotC boards, but still. Wow.
> 
> So...how do ninths figure into immortal CRs? Because these numbers make it apparent that they do.




Its probably more a case of me creating the ECL and then cutting it down to 2/3rds for the Challenge Rating.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari dude! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Link to the WotC thread?  I'd love to see their reactions...
> 
> Also, I'm digging the ToC.




Thanks! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> When I told my players what they were going to playtest, the first thing they started doing was making up what new portfolios they wanted to play (and, given the somewhat juvenile nature of some members of my group, I did get someone looking for the "Pimp" domain, but someone else wants to be a god of housecats, another is going for a god of alchohol (ala Terry Pratchett, in fact, complete with an Oh-God of Hangovers)...) so I'm VERY glad to see rules for creating your own portfolios... those will be tested, I promise.




Just remember, the DM picks one portfolio (which they think has personified the PC*) and the player picks the other.

*Or at random if you have just rolled up the character, I have percentiles listed. 

The DM picks first and the player cannot choose an opposed portfolio (eg. If the DM picks War, the player can't pick Peace, etc.)

All the Portfolios are built from a standard format, so it should be as straightforward as possible to create your own using my guidelines.

'Pimp' would probably be a combination of Rulership and Wealth.

'Housecats' would probably be an Exemplar (double portfolio) Race: Cats, like Bast.

'Alcohol' would be an Exemplar (double portfolio) Object: Alcohol. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Already I'm looking at the portfolios and pondering how they might fit into my "High Phoenix" race...




The fire and healing portfolios might help.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Hello all! I'm a new member of Enworld.




Hey RockHoward! Welcome to the boards! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> I've purchased your Epic Bestiary U_K! and it's very good!!!!!
> 
> thank you very much ,




I appreciate the support dude! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> still waiting the volume 2 for some freaking news monsters!




Lots of interesting stuff in the 2nd Bestiary: Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the Intelligibles, the Umbrals, Quasar Dragons, Nephilim, Infinitaurs etc.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Why the Cr of your Timelord(Dabbat) is so low? ,lol!




Hes about the weakest Time Lord you can get.   



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Previews of Ascension in a near future?




The previews I want to have are of Surtur, but I need to finish off a few other parts of the book, before I can finish those pages off.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Juste a question about Alabaster in your Epic Bestiary: he got a initiative of 150 but (60 Dex +60 Luck + 8 Superior Initiative =128) i'm mssing something i guess




Thats weird, good spot. 

I'll just have to blame Alzrius.   



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Still waiting Ascension   , i thinking about my Phoenix Cosmic Force like the one in Marvel Comic (First One could be great?)




I don't know if the Phoenix Force would be as powerful as a First One. An Elder One or Old One I think. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Ps: I'm French , my english is not great i know




Your english sounds good to me!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Sledge matey! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> Hiya folks.  I'm busily trying to finish up my semester's work right now so I don't have time to chat, just offering my elation at the progress!




Thanks for stopping by and lending your support, and good luck with your work.


----------



## Rockhoward56

Thank you very much U_K!!!  
Ok for a Elder One!
Ao of the Forgotten Realms is a Elder one too????
 Wannnnnnnnnnnnnnntttttttt Ascension ,Grimoire and Chronicles too!lol
you make a very good job!
Would you include in one of your book the stats of Metatron, Lucifer etc........


----------



## Rockhoward56

*Me again!*

hey all!
Another question U_K!  
Will you show us in the Ascension book your High Lord Domodon Doxomedon???  or on your website or here???
More seriously , i'm playing in the Forgotten Realms , another dimensions (Byss,Vriah and other), are not planes , they exist at upper and lower (for byss) levels of existence ?
In Ascension would you describe a little more this dimensions (peoples,monsters etc).

Epic stuffffffffffffff rules!!!!
(i like other games than D&D uber-stats of course   , Amber for example........  )


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I don't know if the Phoenix Force would be as powerful as a First One. An Elder One or Old One I think.




This is an interesting one IMO.  My thoughts were that you could (and maybe it's a stretch) think of the Phoenix Force as potentially being Limbus (sum total of all psionic energy in a reality and the personification of Chaos).  Of course, this is your expertise so I am merely (respectfully) submitting this as one possibility.

However, I would agree that the average showing of the Phoenix Force as manifested through Jean Grey is not on par with, say for example, Eternity.  Perhaps the Phoenix Force as we know it through Jean is a watered down version (an avatar perhaps) as it would be impossible to manifest the full power of a First One through a human.



> I seem to recall you correctly guessing the Demiurge though.




Abra Cadabra Hocus Pocus!

You're too kind, although I do recognize the name of the CR trillion High Lord (extremely cool by the way; maybe my favorite to this point).  

Of course, I also know of one comic book character that I believe is a High Lord.  In fairness though you identified "him" as that on the Classic Marvel boards.  Though, by this point I think I would have figured it out.  


Thanks for posting the previews and such.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Would you include in one of your book the stats of Metatron, Lucifer etc........



I believe I saw a statement that Ascension would have stats for Metatron, and Lucifer also looks familiar (I do know who Lucifer is; you know what I mean). I'll leave it to Upper_Krust to give you the final answer.


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Its probably more a case of me creating the ECL and then cutting it down to 2/3rds for the Challenge Rating.



Ah.

edit: Another question: Would the "entropy" portfolio be considered opposed to nearly every other portfolio?


----------



## dante58701

Kalitharus said:
			
		

> dante,
> 
> Would you please quit posting your "creations" all the time? It's bizarre, some of this stuff you post. For example, the Orichalcum Golem has *nothing* to do with Marvels Colossus; the Orichalcum Golem is based off the Asgardian Destroyer, a construct designed to fight the Celestials. Then you go on about having multiple Amidah in your game... just give it a break.
> 
> Kal







Alright, alright...Ill post my stuff up at umbrasa for those who want to see it. I can understand how it could get clustering on just one thread. But Krusty is right...just because an idea is off the wall and wont work for you....doesnt mean you need to get nasty. I tend to think that people who degenerate into nastiness are simply that....degenerate and nasty.
Nothing personal...just some friendly advice for the future...follow krusty's advice and try a little more consideration for other people's feelings. Good advice we should all follow.

As a sidenote...it was an orichalcum warrior not a golem Id created. It was actually just an extrapolation of the mineral warrior template from the "Underdark" book. Merely a logical conclusion. If mineral warriors can exist, then why not orichalcum warriors or, god forbid, neutronium warriors. Not everything must coincide with your idealized concept of what a campaign world should be. Krusty realizes that everyone is entitled to their own opinions. As a result of this information he provides us with many many ideas to draw upon. If you feel threatened by my ideas. Then maybe these things would cause instability in your own campaign world. But I am not threatened by my own off the wall ideas, because Im more than capable of maintaining stability in a campaign without offending people. In my campaigns the heroes and the villians have access to various different character concepts. Ive even allowed individuals to play monsters or deities. Why would I allow such insanity? Its really very simple. No matter how powerful you are, no matter how much you think you know. There will always be someone tougher. I try to encourage creativity, not close my mind to the possibilities. "WE MUST OBEY THE ALMIGHTY WIZARDS OF THE COAST AND ONLY PLAY NONEPIC WEAKLINGS IN A HACK AND SLASH GAME!!!" Ive never bought that bunk people try to sell me. Epic bashers are just jealous. Bashers of any kind are just jealous. So please avoid bashing to avoid being misconstrued as being jealous and envious. Different things work for different people. Ive played anything from a kobold to a polychromatic dragon. For me, it isnt about power so much as it is about fun. Imagine...a man painfully infused with orichalcum. Sure it makes him tough. But how would he feel about crashing through weak stone floors and breaking everything he touches. Ideally, even a tough orichalcum warrior would feel the pain of loss and have his own challenges. I tend to believe that not all challenges are combat oriented. But even in combat, an orichalcum warrior would find himself at a loss. Especially on soft dirt or mud.
they weigh a lot. Which is a disadvantage in itself. and, its no fun being orichalcum...because you cant have sex. All that brawn and no ability to consumate a love affair for fear of ripping the girl to shreds. So how could an orichalcum warrior ever truly be a threat in a normal world...simply put...stay out of reach and you can run circles around them.

As for the comment on colossus...that was in reference to metal people or people infused or otherwise coated in metal. Some people might just find that interesting. And if you dont like my ideas...just ignore them. Some people might like them and you might just be annoying them. I dont make fun of your toys...so dont make fun of mine. 

And finally...not everyone reads marvel...so dont get your Knickers in a bunch. Dungeons and Dragons is a game...not real life. Im sure your precious asgardians wont care. I know I dont. And Im quite sure Loki himself would be inclined to ignore your adamantly orderly behavior. He didnt like bossy people either. Nor did any of the other asguardians.


PS...Thankyou for be ever the diplomat krusty. More people should be like you. Might save me the headaches.

PSS...Remember everyone..its not about the *drama*, its about having FUN. If you want to play a 3,000,000 level fiendish vampire vorpal tribble time lord mage....then do it. Dont be scared to use your most insane and creative ideas. The moment we let bullies dictate out lives is the moment jock s and preps go back to ruling the world. And thats the last thing we nerdlings need. "LONG LIVE THE NERD EMPIRE!!!!   DOWN WITH OPPRESSION!!!"


----------



## Pssthpok

Ooooohkay... back to our regularly scheduled thread.

How are ya, UK?
Do you think you could give us a ratio or percentage of what's done and what's in the works for Ascension? I know how you dislike setting time limits, but a percentage is objective enough and doesn't nail you to a deadline.
Thanks!


----------



## Rockhoward56

*Phoenix force*

yo ! I'm agree with historian , Jean Grey is only a avatar of the "Real Phoenix Force" cause , the cosmic entity was limited by the fact , Jean Grey is made of flesh and bones like us. 
This "mysterious character" could be " The Living Tribunal"? 
Erf , i renember that's you'have already made stats for Norrin Rad and galactus , too weak for me    , good luck for continaution!

Dante i'm with you , this is game , and only a game. Your creations are quite good!


----------



## dante58701

Im glad you like them. I might just start a creation thread for the epic bestiary. But in all fairness...they arent really my creations entirely. I get most of my inspiration from krusty. And so I must in all fairness give him most of the credit. Ill start that thread now.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thats weird, good spot.
> 
> I'll just have to blame Alzrius.




Alabaster doesn't have Superior Initiative though, he has Supreme Initiative; I was under the impression (I thought from U_K, though now I'm not certain) that this was a feat that'd be in a future IH book, and grants +30 init.

I could be wildly misremembering though.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*alabaster stuff!*

Yes it's written " supreme initiative"! you're right Alzrius! 
i take it for superior initiative because this feat wasn't written in the book!


----------



## historian

By the way (and apologies if this has been posted) but it appears that U_K's website is back up.


----------



## paradox42

You know (and I don't mean to hijack the thread with this), it occurs to me that with U_K getting an official publisher for his books, they might be willing to give him server time too. It would make sense for them to have web pages dedicated to the IH stuff, right? Why not just go with the original source and import his existing site whole hog? Mongoose must be able to afford the extra couple of megabytes (tops) it would take to host U_K's site.

Could that be worth pursuing, Krust?


----------



## dante58701

Could be worth a try. You should try it. Unless of course you just like the idea of having your own site.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

gotta be quick, going to Q-Con in about 20 minutes. So I doubt I'll have time to reply to everyones posts until tomorrow. But lets see if I can make a dent...



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Thank you very much U_K!!!
> Ok for a Elder One!
> Ao of the Forgotten Realms is a Elder one too????




Ao would be between Elder One and Time Lord. I'd need to have all the details before I could make an accurate portrayal.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Wannnnnnnnnnnnnnntttttttt Ascension ,Grimoire and Chronicles too!lol
> you make a very good job!




Thanks! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Would you include in one of your book the stats of Metatron, Lucifer etc........




Metatron is in Ascension, Lucifer will be in one of the books somewhere (but it won't be Ascension).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> hey all!
> Another question U_K!
> Will you show us in the Ascension book your High Lord Domodon Doxomedon???  or on your website or here???




I haven't decided yet. I'll wait to see what the response is to the High Lord in Ascension.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> More seriously , i'm playing in the Forgotten Realms , another dimensions (Byss,Vriah and other), are not planes , they exist at upper and lower (for byss) levels of existence ?
> In Ascension would you describe a little more this dimensions (peoples,monsters etc).




I'll be going into details of the Dimensions in the Immortals Handbook: Chronicle (which also has the stuff on building Realms, Planes and so forth).



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Epic stuffffffffffffff rules!!!!
> (i like other games than D&D uber-stats of course   , Amber for example........  )




Amber is an interesting book.

If you like Lord of Light you should check out the Jack Kirby art for it (for a never released Graphic Novel).

http://www.lordoflight.com/kirbyart/


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!
> 
> This is an interesting one IMO.  My thoughts were that you could (and maybe it's a stretch) think of the Phoenix Force as potentially being Limbus (sum total of all psionic energy in a reality and the personification of Chaos).  Of course, this is your expertise so I am merely (respectfully) submitting this as one possibility.
> 
> However, I would agree that the average showing of the Phoenix Force as manifested through Jean Grey is not on par with, say for example, Eternity.  Perhaps the Phoenix Force as we know it through Jean is a watered down version (an avatar perhaps) as it would be impossible to manifest the full power of a First One through a human.




I probably don't know enough about Phoenix (I tend to steer clear of all things X-men) to make such a decision.

However, an Avatar of a First One would be akin to an Elder One.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Abra Cadabra Hocus Pocus!
> 
> You're too kind, although I do recognize the name of the CR trillion High Lord (extremely cool by the way; maybe my favorite to this point).




You recognise it, cool. I didn't think anyone would get that. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Of course, I also know of one comic book character that I believe is a High Lord.  In fairness though you identified "him" as that on the Classic Marvel boards.  Though, by this point I think I would have figured it out.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks for posting the previews and such.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*thanks*

Thanks U_k!^^
Please post on your website or anywhere some previews lol Surtur or anyone else , some feats for example ? what do you think? Good luckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk


----------



## Fieari

How goes the test version?  Week's about over...


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I probably don't know enough about Phoenix (I tend to steer clear of all things X-men) to make such a decision.
> 
> However, an Avatar of a First One would be akin to an Elder One.




Elder One is about "spot on" with what I would guess for Jean Grey Phoenix. 



> You recognise it, cool. I didn't think anyone would get that.




 

I've actually been reading some gnostic selections recently.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*hello*

hi all!
U_K are you fine?
Seems that in the Bestiary you doesn't add the modifiers of gaining virtual size category for the titanium dragon. I love this dragon!  
One question anyway: about the Nexus dragon , dimensional lock ou anchor could they prevent is "terrific" breath weapon?

About the "great,great,great dragon(GGGD)" i suppose they are gods?! or epic GGGD be like intermediate gods , GGGD adamic greater Gods , and nerashimic GGGD could be Elder One or Old One?
thanks for all!!!!!!!!
wannnnnnnnnnnnttttttttttt so bad a preview of ascension!!!!!  
last question : Io could it be a first One (cause he's the supreme gods of dragons)   , about Corellon Larethian? 
Good luck pal!


----------



## Pssthpok

...meds?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Yes it's written " supreme initiative"! you're right Alzrius!
> i take it for superior initiative because this feat wasn't written in the book!




Its a mistake on my part it should be Superior Initiative.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey paradox mate! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> You know (and I don't mean to hijack the thread with this), it occurs to me that with U_K getting an official publisher for his books, they might be willing to give him server time too. It would make sense for them to have web pages dedicated to the IH stuff, right? Why not just go with the original source and import his existing site whole hog? Mongoose must be able to afford the extra couple of megabytes (tops) it would take to host U_K's site.
> 
> Could that be worth pursuing, Krust?




I dunno about that. I kind of like my independance to a degree.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> How goes the test version?  Week's about over...




Its like the trash compactor scene in Star Wars - Episode IV: A New Hope. But with time crushing me instead of walls.

It'll be done when its done. Patience. Its iminent, just not iminent as in tomorrow.

I know you guys are eager, so am I to get it done. But I want it done 'right'.

Be cool.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> hi all!
> U_K are you fine?




The usual...wishing I could control the flow of time.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Seems that in the Bestiary you doesn't add the modifiers of gaining virtual size category for the titanium dragon. I love this dragon!




Are you sure - I think it does.

Glad you like the dragon though! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> One question anyway: about the Nexus dragon , dimensional lock or anchor could they prevent is "terrific" breath weapon?




No, because non-epic magic doesn't work on it. However, I have an epic spell called eb of Fate that would help you counter it to a degree.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> About the "great,great,great dragon (GGGD)" i suppose they are gods?! or epic GGGD be like intermediate gods , GGGD adamic greater Gods , and nerashimic GGGD could be Elder One or Old One?




The divine bonuses to epic dragons are fairly straight parallels to Divine Rank.

A GGW Epic would be a Greater God.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> thanks for all!!!!!!!!
> wannnnnnnnnnnnttttttttttt so bad a preview of ascension!!!!!




I know mate, I'll have previews soonish.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> last question : Io could it be a first One (cause he's the supreme gods of dragons)   , about Corellon Larethian?
> Good luck pal!




Corellon Larethian would be a Greater God.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> By the way (and apologies if this has been posted) but it appears that U_K's website is back up.




Indeed although I still haven't resolved this problem.

Incidently I 'splashed out' and managed to pick up the Hordes of the Abyss book at Q-Con yesterday. I have only had an hour or two with it so far, but (Demon Lord's aside*) it looks nice. I'll probably have a review of it at some point in the future when I am not so busy. First impressions suggest the good outweighs the bad.

*I winced when I read Kostchtchie carried a +1 icy burst maul.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*thank you U_K!*

Thank you very much!  
Sorry , ok for suggestion !


----------



## Rockhoward56

*titanium probelm*

I'm back !
On page 63 table D-12 you said " The tinanium dragon gain (...)+3 Con (..)per age category
page 75 table D-27 Titanium dragons begins with 25 Con , a Juvenile age they got 34 (3bonus *3 age category) this correct but at Juvenile dragon also gain a Virtual Age category (+4 Con) 34+4=38 . maybe i'm missing something


----------



## dante58701

Given the massive calculations required for epic bestiary creatures it is possible for errors. In fact, if there were no errors, Id begin thinking Krusty was a terminator. I kinda see miscalculations as flavor text. They humanize a manuscript of any variety. I think Im gonna see this one for myself, I dont typically analyze these things though because I do my own calculations and redo them and redo them each time I level something up. This means that I eventually catch my mistakes after at least six or so test runs. Ill check this for you though, as it will save Krusty some time and effort.


----------



## dante58701

Just checked it, and ur right...in fact, he forgot to add the constitution modifier for each age category where the dragon should have one. It's constitution is going in sequences of threes.

25 28 31 34 37 40 43 46 49 52 55 58

It should read...if virtual size categories function as he says...as follows

25 28 31 38 37 40 43 51 54 57 64 67

It's more than likely a simple oversight. Probably due to heavy time constraints. If you get three points per age category plus the virtual size category modifier...then it should read as I noted above. Either dragons dont get the constitution modifier or he erred with each dragon species that gets virtual size categories.


----------



## Knight Otu

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I know you guys are eager, so am I to get it done. But I want it done 'right'.



Have you considered to send those portions that are (reasonably) complete to those who offered editing, so that they can work through those parts (holding off to send you what they find until you give the go-ahead), while you work through the parts that still need finishing? I know it's hard to avoid tinkering, but it might work?


----------



## dante58701

VOID DRAGON
Night Dragon
Dragon (Extraplanar, Undead)


Wouldnt 

Void Dragon
Night Dragon
Undead (Augmented [Dragon], Extraplanar)

be more accurate?

Abiding? What is abiding? It doesnt explain that. I even did a document search...nothing, except the entry under special for void dragon abilities.

Dont mean to nit pick or anything, but the void dragon is an odd one when it comes to types and subtypes. Unless of course your inferring that it has undead as a subtype rather than a type.


----------



## dante58701

Actually, strike that note on virtual size categories. I think Ive discovered what he did. I think he intended for the virtual size categories to only affect damage dice. Maybe? We'll just have to wait till Krusty explains his reasoning. Kuz if he forgot virtual size categories then he didnt do the armor classes right either. Not that I mind, sheesh, whats for calculations compared to billions he has to do. To be honest I feel bad for anyone who has to do that much math. Until then though Im going by the theory that he missed it. It'll give my greater multiheaded lernaean void dragon an extra +152 natural armor. Which isnt much against other dragons, but it's a lot when you want the dragon to sleep in a cavern and not get messed with by humans. It would also put them more in line with their strength. That way when two of them fight each other, they arent automatically hitting every time.

With the virtual size categories included they all even out more. So my vote is include the modifiers so that it isnt a battle of slash slash...oh crap were all dead. The modifiers are a bit tricky though so be careful in your calculations. Dont get confused by mixing up size vs virtual size. I do that myself sometimes.


----------



## dante58701

amidah question...+60 to damage rolls..is that +60 per die or +60 per grouping of die.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Have you considered to send those portions that are (reasonably) complete to those who offered editing, so that they can work through those parts (holding off to send you what they find until you give the go-ahead), while you work through the parts that still need finishing? I know it's hard to avoid tinkering, but it might work?




No because I don't want to have to explain what parts are and are not complete, which is going to mean me going through it all and compiling a list of unfinished paragraphs, tables or whatever. Its self defeating.


----------



## Upper_Krust

dante58701 said:
			
		

> VOID DRAGON
> Night Dragon
> Dragon (Extraplanar, Undead)
> 
> Wouldnt
> 
> Void Dragon
> Night Dragon
> Undead (Augmented [Dragon], Extraplanar)
> 
> be more accurate?




Its Dragon base but its undead and an outsider.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Abiding? What is abiding? It doesnt explain that. I even did a document search...nothing, except the entry under special for void dragon abilities.




Abiding as in permanent.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Dont mean to nit pick or anything, but the void dragon is an odd one when it comes to types and subtypes. Unless of course your inferring that it has undead as a subtype rather than a type.




Yes, because I want the 'Dragon' part to be the base.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again matey! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Actually, strike that note on virtual size categories. I think Ive discovered what he did. I think he intended for the virtual size categories to only affect damage dice. Maybe? We'll just have to wait till Krusty explains his reasoning. Kuz if he forgot virtual size categories then he didnt do the armor classes right either. Not that I mind, sheesh, whats for calculations compared to billions he has to do. To be honest I feel bad for anyone who has to do that much math. Until then though Im going by the theory that he missed it. It'll give my greater multiheaded lernaean void dragon an extra +152 natural armor. Which isnt much against other dragons, but it's a lot when you want the dragon to sleep in a cavern and not get messed with by humans. It would also put them more in line with their strength. That way when two of them fight each other, they arent automatically hitting every time.
> 
> With the virtual size categories included they all even out more. So my vote is include the modifiers so that it isnt a battle of slash slash...oh crap were all dead. The modifiers are a bit tricky though so be careful in your calculations. Dont get confused by mixing up size vs virtual size. I do that myself sometimes.




Thats another oversight on my part. In my defense VSC was initially going to be Str/Damage. But it got changed somewhere along the way, and I must have forgotten to input the changes. Sorry.


----------



## dante58701

So abiding means they can never be destroyed? Im not really sure what ur getting at. I think I get the rest though...dragon (outsider, undead, evil, extraplanar) ?


I love dragons. Im currently gonna be creating two. A void dragon...and...an amidah great great great wyrm polychromatic dragon named aconite. The void dragon is a back up in case Aconite dies. Because Aconite is destined to become a void dragon if he ever dies. It was part of a pact he made with a time lord. Imagine...a void dragon in service to a time lord. Essentially like playing a mortal in service to an overdeity. Aconite has been a character of mine for some time. Originally from first edition AD&D. He was the son of tiamat, but he became vastly more powerful than her. In truth...adding an amidah template is weakening him. But I wanted him to be more playable than a polychromatic dragon with 36 age categories. So the group reasoned that he would be an amidah. Afterall, in our campaign he slew the entire babylonian pantheon. The god of death, of course, was the biggest pain in the rear.


As for the errors, dont sweat it. Im amazed there werent more considering how much you have to do. And to be honest...WOTC has far more errors than any publisher Ive ever seen.
You think they would at least run a damn spell checker.


----------



## Angel Tarragon

Hey Upper Crust! How is it going (things in general that is)?

I was cruising the products over at Mogoose pages and came across Flaming Cobra. I saw a product called The Immortals Handbook slated for a September release. I know they have their Classic Play book Book of Immortals. I am curious if Eternal Publishing has signed up with Mongoose.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Incidently I 'splashed out' and managed to pick up the Hordes of the Abyss book at Q-Con yesterday. I have only had an hour or two with it so far, but (Demon Lord's aside*) it looks nice. I'll probably have a review of it at some point in the future when I am not so busy. First impressions suggest the good outweighs the bad.
> 
> *I winced when I read Kostchtchie carried a +1 icy burst maul.




I picked it up yesterday for myself.  I think it's a good product notwithstanding the Demon Lords being underpowered.

One thing I have noticed that is rather disturbing is that I can't foresee how Demogorgon as statted could defeat Orcus as statted absent a critical failure on a d20 roll -- and even at that it's not a given.


BTW, all this editorial commentary reminds me that I have failed to update my copy of the Bestiary since version 1.2.  

I've been regretfully slack in that regard and honestly I was more than pleased with what I've had, but it occurs to me that I should do something about this prior to the release of Ascension.

Any suggestions?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Hey Upper Crust! How is it going (things in general that is)?
> 
> I was cruising the products over at Mogoose pages and came across Flaming Cobra. I saw a product called The Immortals Handbook slated for a September release. I know they have their Classic Play book Book of Immortals. I am curious if Eternal Publishing has signed up with Mongoose.




http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=2883267&postcount=347
http://www.immortalshandbook.com/Assets/images/IH_EpicBestiary_Vol1_Cover(50%).jpg


----------



## Anabstercorian

Yeah, what IS abiding?


----------



## dante58701

My DM wants to run a new campaign. One centered around the "what if" scenario of "what if a lowly human was by some cosmic fluke, some grand cosmic [accident], irrevocably granted the powers and abilities of a seraphim. Similar to the scenario of..."what if" a man became god for a day. Imagine...this lowly mortal, probably some highschool geek, granted the power of a seraphim by the demiurge itself. Sure...there is the power to consider, but one must also consider the ramifications of inexperiance with profound knowledge and power. Not to mention the plethora of enemies one would have in such a scenario. Many angels might even consider such a creature an abomination, although such a creature trulyisnt, since abominations are another kind of creature altogether and far less powerful. What would any of you do were you suddenly given that much power. Would heads start rolling, would you be good...evil?
Maybe you would make all the world your oyster..or free it from tyranny? So many roleplaying possibilities. Id imagine some would go the Sephiroth route...others would go the route of the hero.

_*Do not* attempt to bypass the profanity filter.  It's there for a reason.  -Hyp._


----------



## dante58701

Two hours into the campaign and his ethical value of "no mercy" for the wicked gets him into trouble. Attacked by the heavenly host for delivering his own brand of justice he's driven into the lower planes. After laying low for a while, he resurfaces in Japan and begins a less noticable killing spree. Restricting himself to slaughtering only those that are evil. Afterall, wouldnt want that nosy Sandalphon sending more of those damnable Malkim again. Free to slaughter the evil ones with glee, he adds their souls to his armies. Of course before he kills them he must somehow purchase their souls. Such humble beginnings for the damned.


----------



## dante58701

Now posing as a cursed statue in japan he is begining the long term goal of a cult of vengeance takers. The locals leave offerings in hopes of keeping ill fortune away...ill fortune he would undoubtedly bring if they did not show him the proper respect. Police have sectioned off that are of the city and that area of the city has since become a haven for bloodshed and death. Thus far his prized enclave has but one member. A young woman who came to him seeking the power to kill all rapists. An odd relationsip has formed between them. She kills evil humans, thus condemning their evil souls to the lower planes, preventing their repentance. And he harvests their damned souls as larva, for use in bartering with the fiends in the lower planes.Admittedly the harvest is slow, but he has eternity. The best cults form from patient gatherings. And from those cults spawn monotheistic religions that dominate the world and kill their own kind for power. Such is corruption.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
My eyesight isn't too bad, save that I am colorblind, but it looks as if you spelled "Organization"
as "organisation" on your ToC.


----------



## Kvantum

He's British. That's how every other English-speaking country spells it. We're the weird ones with our z's and "armor" instead of "armour".


----------



## Fieari

I'll take a couple of cool Zs in exchange for some stupid extraneous Us any day.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

I don't mind having Zs. As far as I'm concerned, each letter should keep to its own sound. Following that reasoning, I believe the letter C should either get the "ch" sound or be abolished completely.

On topic: I can hardly wait for Ascension beta release! Yayyyyy!


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Wow, learn something new every day.
If U_K finishes the beta document before the end of the week, that day shall become a holiday in my book. A Holiday, being somewhat of a cross between New Years Eve, and Ragnarok.


----------



## dante58701

Disciple of Ketsueki

The disciple of Ketsueki is an individual bent on violent revenge. For them only blood will cleanse their soul of their self inflicted torment. Drawn from all walks of life, they seek to slaughter those who have erred from the path of righteousness. They care not that the wicked they slay are forever damned and irredeemable. They care not for the countless masses that cry out in protest. They only care for the wrongs that were commited, wrongs they consider unforgivable. And thus, in blind passion, they slaughter the hope of the repentance and salvation of the wicked.  And thus, they damn their own souls.

Hit Dice:d12

Requirements
To qualify to become a disciple of Ketsueki one must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment:Any evil.
Skills:Concentration 10 ranks, Gather Information 10 ranks, Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks.
Feats:Alertness, Dark Speech, Evil Brand, Iron Will, Vile Ki Strike
Special:Must be selected by Ketsueki himself. Must seek vengeance for wrongs comitted to one's self or others.

The Disciple of Ketsueki
Class Level	Base Attack Bonus	Fort Save	Ref Save	Will Save	Special
1st		+1		+2	+2	+2	Bite, Blood Drain, Lifewell
2nd		+2		+3	+3	+3	Energy Drain 1, Invigorate
3rd		+3		+3	+3	+3	Special Attack Boost (Empower), Soul Strength, Soul Blast
4th		+4		+4	+4	+4	Special Attack Boost (Heighten), Mortal Skin (Humanoid)
5th		+5		+4	+4	+4	Blood Servant, Greater Blood Drain, Soul Enhancement
6th		+6		+5	+5	+5	Special Attack Boost (Maximize), Mortal Skin (Any nondragon)
7th		+7		+5	+5	+5	Greater Invigorate, Claws of the Overfiend, Soul Endurance
8th		+8		+6	+6	+6	Soul Radiance, Energy Drain 2
9th		+9		+6	+6	+6	Mortal Skin (Any), Soul Agility, Soul Slave
10th 		+10		+7	+7	+7	Apotheosis, Soul Power


Class Skills:Alchemy (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentation (Con), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Innuendo (Wis), Jump (Str), Move Silently (Dex), Swim (Str)

Special – These abilities function as per the abilties of the same name in the book of vile darkness. Except, for Apotheosis, which bestows upon the disciple the half-fiend template. Such half-fiends are always pitch black with angelic wings.
Bite, Blood Drain, Lifewell Energy Drain 1, Invigorate, Special Attack Boost (Empower), Soul Strength, Soul Blast, Special Attack Boost (Heighten), Mortal Skin (Humanoid), Blood Servant, Greater Blood Drain, Soul Enhancement, Special Attack Boost (Maximize), Mortal Skin (Any nondragon), Greater Invigorate, Claws of the Overfiend, Soul Endurance, Soul Radiance, Energy Drain 2, Mortal Skin (Any), Soul Agility, Soul Slave, Apotheosis, Soul Power

Ex-Disciples of Ketsueki
Ex-Disciples of Ketsueki are immediately destroyed by Ketsueki. As he gives him far more power than is typical, he expects far more loyalty. He has a great deal of personal interest in each disciple. 

The disciple of Ketsueki prestige class is not so much a prestige class as it is a gradual bestowal of tremendous power. Each disciple must seek out Ketsueki and recieve his blessing in order to advance to the next level. Without his blessing, they cannot advance any further as a disciple of ketsueki.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Isn't this out of place, as this thread is a discussion of the Immortals Handbook series and this is a blend of three non-epic PrCs?


----------



## dante58701

Its the disciple class for the Balseraph Im playing. Which explains the relevance. Im just running it by the masses to see if it needs stricter prerequisites.


----------



## dante58701

Heres an ability Im giving to a maskim who associates with drow a lot. What do you think people? Im open to any critiquing, good or bad.


Patron of the Drow (Ex/Although the maskim is indeed still a maskim, through his many centuries of dealings with the drow, he has come to not only look like a drow, he has also acquired all of their racial characteristics in addition to his own racial characteristics. This permanently alters his statistics as follows: Size: Medium (Acquires +2 Virtual Size Categories as a compensation for his loss in actual size) and adds the following to his traditional maskim abilities: Drow Traits (As so noted in the 3.5 Monster Manual). Additionally, he has acquired the ability to exceed the racial hit dice limitations of his race. Of course his dealings with the drow have also put him at odds with his own kind. Thus, he is considered an outcaste by his own people. As a result of this, he recieves a -20 to interpersonal skill checks when dealing with maskim.)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

I'm being conservative with my time at the moment - for obvious reasons.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I picked it up yesterday for myself.  I think it's a good product notwithstanding the Demon Lords being underpowered.
> 
> One thing I have noticed that is rather disturbing is that I can't foresee how Demogorgon as statted could defeat Orcus as statted absent a critical failure on a d20 roll -- and even at that it's not a given.




Yes, you have to laugh, they didn't even give Demogorgon power attack for goodness sake.   

All the Armor Classes seem devoid of any logic as well.   

I will say this though, the art for Demogorgon is awesome (and Fraz-Urb'luu, Juiblex, Kostchtchie and Pazuzu), although I hate that they shrunk all the illustrations down so much that they seem a tad more feeble than they should. 

What the heck was the thinking behind this 160 page limit.   

...and the Orcus vs. Demogorgon battle should have been the Cover Painting.

I did find I liked one bit of the Demon Lord's stats, that they made Kostchtchie 'Huge' size. 

Hopefully they'll set a few things straight in his Demonomicon article...+1 icy burst maul...NOOOOO! +11 brutal*, icy blast cold iron maul more like.

*Crushing version of Vorpal.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW, all this editorial commentary reminds me that I have failed to update my copy of the Bestiary since version 1.2.
> 
> I've been regretfully slack in that regard and honestly I was more than pleased with what I've had, but it occurs to me that I should do something about this prior to the release of Ascension.
> 
> Any suggestions?




Email me if you can no longer download it.


----------



## cradledrapture

How things goin all? Anything new yet? Excellent work on the Bestiary. Loved it.

One question though...whens the next book due?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Yes, you have to laugh, they didn't even give Demogorgon power attack for goodness sake.
> 
> All the Armor Classes seem devoid of any logic as well.




Initial playtesting confirms suspicions that they do not stack up well with your creations in the Bestiary (I've been playing around with Cicatrix).



> I will say this though, the art for Demogorgon is awesome (and Fraz-Urb'luu, Juiblex, Kostchtchie and Pazuzu), although I hate that they shrunk all the illustrations down so much that they seem a tad more feeble than they should.
> 
> What the heck was the thinking behind this 160 page limit.
> 
> ...and the Orcus vs. Demogorgon battle should have been the Cover Painting.




Agreed on the art and I would have much preferred to have seen the Orcus vs. Demogorgon battle in color and on front.



> Hopefully they'll set a few things straight in his Demonomicon article...+1 icy burst maul...NOOOOO! +11 brutal*, icy blast cold iron maul more like.
> 
> *Crushing version of Vorpal.




 

Don't count on it.  I believe we'll have to wait for your redux.



> Email me if you can no longer download it.




 

You've been e-mailed and I'll go on record publicly as admitting I'm an idiot.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> +1 icy burst maul



Okay, now that's just criminal. Balors have better weaponry than that!


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I did find I liked one bit of the Demon Lord's stats, that they made Kostchtchie 'Huge' size.




Twenty-four feet tall!



> _Hopefully they'll set a few things straight in his Demonomicon article...+1 icy burst maul...NOOOOO! +11 brutal*, icy blast cold iron maul more like.
> 
> *Crushing version of Vorpal._




In the Demonomicon article, he uses a _+3 icy burst truebane cold iron maul_. _Truebane_ is a new magic weapon quality introduced in that article; it makes the weapon a _bane_ weapon against creatures of the wielder's type, but when it hits a creature of a different type, it becomes a _bane_ weapon against that type instead for 1 round.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello there! 



			
				cradledrapture said:
			
		

> How things goin all?




Busy when not answering posts. 



			
				cradledrapture said:
			
		

> Anything new yet?




A few days for the first playtest doc. will be sent out to a few people.



			
				cradledrapture said:
			
		

> Excellent work on the Bestiary. Loved it.




Thanks.   



			
				cradledrapture said:
			
		

> One question though...whens the next book due?




My favourite question.   

When its done.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Twenty-four feet tall!




Well as long as he's bigger than a Frost Giant, that was the main thing. 50% bigger sounds okay.

I didn't understand why they made Baphomet bigger? I always liked the idea of him and Yeenoghu being roughly the same height.   



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> In the Demonomicon article, he uses a _+3 icy burst truebane cold iron maul_. _Truebane_ is a new magic weapon quality introduced in that article; it makes the weapon a _bane_ weapon against creatures of the wielder's type, but when it hits a creature of a different type, it becomes a _bane_ weapon against that type instead for 1 round.




That issue is not out here yet (we get our issues one month behind).

But at least thats an improvement, albeit a tiny one.


----------



## cradledrapture

I wish they would just admit they were retarded and redo the "Hordes of the Abyss".

It was rediculous the way they made the demonlords look malnourished and underfed. My 34th level halfling rogue could kill Orcus. I was devastated when I saw Pazuzu's stats. How do they get away with these atrocities?


----------



## Upper_Krust

cradledrapture said:
			
		

> I wish they would just admit they were retarded and redo the "Hordes of the Abyss".
> 
> It was rediculous the way they made the demonlords look malnourished and underfed. My 34th level halfling rogue could kill Orcus. I was devastated when I saw Pazuzu's stats. How do they get away with these atrocities?




In and of themselves, there is nothing wrong with the Demon Lord stats from Hordes of the Abyss.

I read John Cooper's review of the book and he actually applauded the lower powered stats.

However, the problem arises when you actually try and put the stats into any sort of logical perspective with regards the context of the Demon Lords and their positions. They simply don't make any sense whatsoever.

...In fact I don't want to discuss it anymore, it'll just annoy me. I said my stuff over in the other thread, lets just leave it at that.


----------



## Knight Otu

Please do not dwell too much on it, and keep the discussion on-topic. cradledrapture has, as far as I see, agreed to discuss the matter in private with the forum mods, and that's how it should stay.


----------



## Hypersmurf

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Please do not dwell too much on it, and keep the discussion on-topic. cradledrapture has, as far as I see, agreed to discuss the matter in private with the forum mods, and that's how it should stay.




I've removed the offending posts to keep the thread tidy.

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


----------



## CRGreathouse

Alzrius said:
			
		

> In the Demonomicon article, he uses a _+3 icy burst truebane cold iron maul_. _Truebane_ is a new magic weapon quality introduced in that article; it makes the weapon a _bane_ weapon against creatures of the wielder's type, but when it hits a creature of a different type, it becomes a _bane_ weapon against that type instead for 1 round.




What's the price on that?


----------



## paradox42

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What's the price on that?



Truebane costs a +3 bonus. I thought it was a pretty cool idea, myself.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust, about the Ascension ToC: Did you intend the portfolio element above "Mountain" to be "Moon" or "Noon?" Because right now it's "Noon."


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Servitor of Wrath matey! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Upper_Krust, about the Ascension ToC: Did you intend the portfolio element above "Mountain" to be "Moon" or "Noon?" Because right now it's "Noon."




Thats weird, thanks, I'll go hunt that down and fix it.


----------



## poilbrun

Oww, come on UK! I'm just back from holidays, I thought the first thing I would do when back woul be to download Ascension, and it's not out yet!  Anyway, you'll see a pre-order under my name... Hurry up! 

On a sidenote, I cannot access your website right now. Is it just me, or is the problem widespread?

Cheers!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Oww, come on UK! I'm just back from holidays, I thought the first thing I would do when back woul be to download Ascension, and it's not out yet!




*SIGH*   



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Anyway, you'll see a pre-order under my name... Hurry up!




I noticed that. Did you order the Bestiary as well? You already have that don't you!?   



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> On a sidenote, I cannot access your website right now. Is it just me, or is the problem widespread?




I suspect the webspace people may have taken it down again, since the invoice still has not been paid.

I had no money in my business account (or at least no money that wasn't about to be debited by some bill) to send them the cheque. So I had to transfer this weeks pre-order money into my account (which takes about a week to clear). Then I'll have to send them the cheque (which will take another week to reach them). 

I emailed them explaining its actually their fault (I specifically request 2 weeks notice before an invoice is due), so hopefully they will switch it back on?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

I have just been going over the Divine Retinue figures. I changed the sample Retinue to Baphomet (rather than Yeenoghu) since I can get away with the name.

Unfortunately I don't think I can get away with the Ankashar, Bulezau, Ghour, Goristro and Klurichir, so I'll have to sort out replacements.

However, the issue is more about the size of the Retinue than the product identity of names.

Here is a possible Quick Breakdown for Baphomet.

*Cohort:* ECL 46 (26 HD modified* Klurichir with 46th-level equipment: such as a +8 unholy power greataxe, etc.).

*13th-level Sorcerer Integrated Levels...and a few other mods courtesy of yours truly. 

*Sub-Cohorts:* 4 x Goristro (ECL 24), 1 x Marilith (ECL 26), 1 x Fiendish Minotaur Barbarian 16 (ECL 26), 1 x Fiendish Minotaur Cleric 16 (ECL 26),  1 x Fiendish Minotaur Sorcerer 16 (ECL 26).

*Followers:* 483,600 Manes (ECL 1), 24,180 Dretch (ECL 3), 756 Fiendish Minotaurs (ECL 10), 192 Ankashar (ECL 12), 48 Bulezau (ECL 14), 4 Ghour (ECL 18).

The problem I have is that his retinue (and I am thinking specifically his followers just seems a bit small. I sort of envision he would have a few thousand Bulezau, a few score Goristro, and so forth. What do the rest of you think?

Personally I think part of the problem is that they keep inflating the power of the 'stock' demons.

Incidently this is for a 39 Hit Dice demi-deity (demon prince) version of Baphomet with a Leadership Score of 82.


----------



## Zoatebix

Poilbrun's right - your website is acting up again.


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I noticed that. Did you order the Bestiary as well? You already have that don't you!?



Damn, it must have been in my shopping cart, I actually bought the first version of the Bestiary through a direct paypal payment to you when you sold the preview...

Oh well, that must be the jetlag at work. What can I say? Happy birthday UK, maybe?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Zoatebix matey!  



			
				Zoatebix said:
			
		

> Poilbrun's right - your website is acting up again.




They seem to have switched it back on.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Damn, it must have been in my shopping cart, I actually bought the first version of the Bestiary through a direct paypal payment to you when you sold the preview...
> 
> Oh well, that must be the jetlag at work. What can I say? Happy birthday UK, maybe?




If thats the case, I'll sort you out a free copy of my next pdf...just don't ask me when thats going to arrive.  

...and don't worry Sledge I haven't forgotten about you winning the "guess why Alabaster has 117 levels" competition a few months ago.


----------



## Sledge

No worries with me, I'm buried in finals and research papers for the next 9 days.


----------



## Fieari

I've now forgotten... why does he have 117 levels again?


----------



## Alzrius

Fieari said:
			
		

> I've now forgotten... why does he have 117 levels again?




That's how many levels Thrin had in the original game, IIRC.


----------



## historian

Same as Alzrius.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*hello all*

yop!
After re-reading the bestiary (which is very great   ) i've some questions:
His Armor Class :83 but (9 deflection+5 Dex+6 Divine+51 (epic bracers)+8 natural armor)=79
Attack: +71 but(35 base+18 sword bonus+9For+6Divine+1 epic prowess=69)

HOWWWWWWW KILLLLLLLL the NEXus dragon , for me this monster ( before Ascension release , his invicible )
I think the Neutronium Golem , base attack bonus , accretion check , Saves, Gravic Aura and disintegration check are too low for a 9721 uber monster)
why not using the math for a 2500d100 monster? woild be more accurate maybe?


----------



## Rockhoward56

*correction*

I was talking about Kabiri (Demon prince of Secrets which is very good U_K  , love harbinger of Doom and his 6 permanent shadows  )


----------



## dante58701

If a sadim stopped being greedy, what adjustments would have to be made to it? The reason I ask is a player in my campaign is playing a sadim, who through devastating tragedy, cast aside all his wealth. Would it retain all of its abilities or would some change? And if they did change, what would they change to?


----------



## Pssthpok

Hey, UK. Question for you.

You make mention of abilities like *Infinite Strength* and such. My question is in comparing such scores. Does a character with Infinite Strength deal infinite damage? This seems obvious, but does a charater with Infinite Constitution, when struck by a character with Infinite Strength, just cancel out the two infinities and take 'normal' damage, or is there a more complicated mechanic in place? 
I suppose I could just wait a week or two, but I figured I'd ask.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Rockhoward mate! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> yop!
> After re-reading the bestiary (which is very great   )




Thank you! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> i've some questions:
> His Armor Class :83 but (9 deflection+5 Dex+6 Divine+51 (epic bracers)+8 natural armor)=79
> Attack: +71 but(35 base+18 sword bonus+9For+6Divine+1 epic prowess=69)




I appreciate the errata. Wherer were you a few weeks ago when I was finishing the print version!? 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> HOWWWWWWW KILLLLLLLL the NEXus dragon , for me this monster ( before Ascension release , his invicible )




I think of all the monsters in the Bestiary the Nexus Dragon's Challenge Rating is the most likely to be wrong.

You _probably_ need the powers in Ascension, spells and artifacts from Grimoire to defeat the monsters of about CR 200+. Its all very well just tacking on levels, but the more powerful abilities are always slightly better than the sum of their parts.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> I think the Neutronium Golem , base attack bonus , accretion check , Saves, Gravic Aura and disintegration check are too low for a 9721 uber monster)
> why not using the math for a 2500d100 monster? woild be more accurate maybe?




Basically I designed a golem made of Neutronium and then worked out its Challenge Rating, I wasn't trying to design a monster with a 9721 CR.

Also I don't think creatures will have very high Hit Dice, even though I hint at that with the size rules.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante mate! 

By the way I was happy to see you apologised, but enough about that now. Its all water under the bridge.   



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> If a sadim stopped being greedy, what adjustments would have to be made to it? The reason I ask is a player in my campaign is playing a sadim, who through devastating tragedy, cast aside all his wealth. Would it retain all of its abilities or would some change? And if they did change, what would they change to?




Off the top of my head I would probably say that the Sadim would need to eat wealth to retain its Breath Weapon...in the same sort of way a Dracolich has still eat to maintain its.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Pssthpok mate! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Hey, UK. Question for you.
> 
> You make mention of abilities like *Infinite Strength* and such. My question is in comparing such scores. Does a character with Infinite Strength deal infinite damage?




Yes.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> This seems obvious, but does a charater with Infinite Constitution, when struck by a character with Infinite Strength, just cancel out the two infinities and take 'normal' damage, or is there a more complicated mechanic in place?
> I suppose I could just wait a week or two, but I figured I'd ask.




I think thats the simplest way to do it.


----------



## dante58701

For sadims who are no longer greedy. I think their other abilities would remain unscathed, but I think a non-greedy sadim would be consumed by a newfound hatred for the greedy, or at least a strong dislike. Afterall, noone likes being reminded of their sordid past. What domains would a standard non-greedy sadim grant access too?

Devoid of Greed (Ex):Because he is no longer greedy, he must consume gold in order to maintain his breathweapon. The ammount of gold he must consume is equal to his character level in gold pieces each day. For each day he goes without consuming gold, his breathweapons recovery rate is lengthened by one round.

PS...ARE WE THERE YET!!!!  I just want me book.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  

I'm ashamed to admit how much I'm enjoying looking at the first page of the Table Of Contents of Ascension.  

12 pages of Cosmic abilities!  

Can you offer us additional previews at this point?  Maybe an example Transcendent power or something?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

I just had an Idea for a transendental power ...
Infinite Patience
You can wait for anything
Prerequisites: Con 60, Wis 60, Must have read the IH: ToC.
Benifit: You can tolerate waiting for eternity. You suffer no penalties due to fatigue due to lack of sleep or starvation. You suffer no sanity loss due to anxiety.
Special: You still suffer normal penalties for waiting for the Immortal's Handbook to be released.

Joking aside, U_K, do you think you will still meet the posted date on enworld for the release? (July 4?) (I should know better than to ask by now, just curious)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Joking aside, U_K, do you think you will still meet the posted date on enworld for the release? (July 4?) (I should know better than to ask by now, just curious)




I hope to sneak the text version out for the first week of July. *Fingers Crossed*

As for another preview page, I may add the second page of contents/glossary tomorrow and then another page on Monday.

I sort of wanted to preview the Divine Hierarchy table at the start of the second chapter. The problem being that the top half of that page should have an illustration on it, which I haven't finished yet.   

Regarding 12 pages of Cosmic Abilities I should point out that 2 of those pages are the Table of Cosmic Abilities.

One thing I have been worrying about with the Powers chapter is whether or not I should have:

- *Epic Feats Table* - Epic Feat descriptions - *Divine Ability Table* - Divine Ability Descriptions - *Cosmic Ability Table* - Cosmic Ability Descriptions - *Transcendental Ability Table* - Transcendental Ability Descriptions - *Omnific Ability Table* - Omnific Ability Descriptions.

or

- *Epic Feats Table - Divine Ability Table - Cosmic Ability Table - Transcendental Ability Table - Omnific Ability Table* - Epic Feat descriptions - Divine Ability Descriptions - Cosmic Ability Descriptions - Transcendental Ability Descriptions - Omnific Ability Descriptions.

Incidently the Tables take up about 9 1/2 pages* (or 13 1/2 counting the Feat Packages Table).


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Well, your having a need to have 5 different tables is unique. The individual tables in each section are easier to reference, while a large table would look more comprehensive. I think if the table are to be all together, they should be condensed into one table (If this works out) and possibly with page number references (or we can just wait till the IH is done and a Bookmarked version is finished (Doesnt that sound like a fun job ).
Oh, the feat packages, are they just a quick way of assigning feats to deities based on bonus feat progressions? Like if I make a level 96 Deity, with 33 bonus feats, are the feat packages just "You get x feat y times, z feat n times, q feat l times, and feats e r b & p" ? I like the idea, and sadly whenever I go to stat up epic monsters, I end up giving them all the sane similar feat package (A nasty one too, the most abusive feats possible. If I recall, a Hecontoncheires with Multitasking...) My player group assigns the "ad-hoc-dm-power-gamed-this-monster-CR-adjustment" to anything I make 
As for a July release... Fingers *And* Toes crossed.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> As for another preview page, I may add the second page of contents/glossary tomorrow and then another page on Monday.
> 
> I sort of wanted to preview the Divine Hierarchy table at the start of the second chapter. The problem being that the top half of that page should have an illustration on it, which I haven't finished yet.




Any or all of the above would be great.



> One thing I have been worrying about with the Powers chapter is whether or not I should have:
> 
> - Epic Feats Table - Epic Feat descriptions - Divine Ability Table - Divine Ability Descriptions - Cosmic Ability Table - Cosmic Ability Descriptions - Transcendental Ability Table - Transcendental Ability Descriptions - Omnific Ability Table - Omnific Ability Descriptions.
> 
> or
> 
> - Epic Feats Table - Divine Ability Table - Cosmic Ability Table - Transcendental Ability Table - Omnific Ability Table - Epic Feat descriptions - Divine Ability Descriptions - Cosmic Ability Descriptions - Transcendental Ability Descriptions - Omnific Ability Descriptions.
> 
> Incidently the Tables take up about 9 1/2 pages* (or 13 1/2 counting the Feat Packages Table).




My candid preference would be for the former primarily because I see it being easier on the reader.  

As to the pdf version it might not make a difference.  However, as you put this thing into print there will be some shoppers who will pull Ascension off the shelf to flip through.  Nine to thirteen pages of consecutively running tables might look a touch awkward.  I believe by breaking it up it will flow better.

Of course, I don't think it's too big a deal either way.


----------



## Knight Otu

historian said:
			
		

> My candid preference would be for the former primarily because I see it being easier on the reader.



I seem to recall that Deities and Demigods had separate tables for the feats and the SDAs, and Complete Warrior having seperate tables for the different types of feats. So I'd say, separate tables have a good precedence.


----------



## paradox42

I agree with historian and Knight. Five tables placed one per section is likely the most sensible way to organize it for referencing later- plus, the tables will make good markers for the sections when you're madly flipping through a print version in play trying to find that one specific ability.

Now, if you end up having an extra 10 pages or so somehow at the end, I'd say make one condensed table there as a sort of index, but otherwise go with the separate five.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Ltheb mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Well, your having a need to have 5 different tables is unique. The individual tables in each section are easier to reference, while a large table would look more comprehensive. I think if the table are to be all together, they should be condensed into one table (If this works out) and possibly with page number references (or we can just wait till the IH is done and a Bookmarked version is finished (Doesnt that sound like a fun job ).




Don't scare me with talk of bookmarks. The index is going to be enough of a nightmare*.  

*and no I am not relisting all the divine/cosmic/etc powers in the index.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, the feat packages, are they just a quick way of assigning feats to deities based on bonus feat progressions? Like if I make a level 96 Deity, with 33 bonus feats, are the feat packages just "You get x feat y times, z feat n times, q feat l times, and feats e r b & p" ? I like the idea, and sadly whenever I go to stat up epic monsters, I end up giving them all the sane similar feat package (A nasty one too, the most abusive feats possible. If I recall, a Hecontoncheires with Multitasking...) My player group assigns the "ad-hoc-dm-power-gamed-this-monster-CR-adjustment" to anything I make




Not exactly.

Feat packages are collections of 6 feats bundled together into Feat Packages in the same way certain Divine Abilities in D&Dg (like Divine Paladin, Divine Bard etc.) are not individual Divine Abilities, but rather a collection of feats.

So basically to help create deity PC/NPCs you just use these in place of six feats.

ie. Demogorgon, 50 Hit Dice, instead of 17 feats you just have 2 Feat Packages and 5 individual feats. I think it will save a lot of time, especially for the more powerful monsters.

Also its sort of nullifies any min/maxing that you would get designing a PC at 50th-level (or whatever) instead of roleplaying it up from low levels.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> As for a July release... Fingers *And* Toes crossed.




If you've got 'em, cross em'.   

Regarding the Tables, most of you seem to be suggesting using the Tables as buffers for the individual sections (which is the way its set up at the moment).

Also regarding the Divine Retinue ideas I was sceptical on a day or two ago, nevermind, I did some more testing and found that the trick lies in judging the immortals divine age.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Also regarding the Divine Retinue ideas I was sceptical on a day or two ago, nevermind, I did some more testing and found that the trick lies in judging the immortals divine age.






Does older mean more followers/subcohorts?  Regardless of what "power level" of retinue you have for a particular deity, the rules for determining their levels still needs to be determined.


----------



## poilbrun

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Does older mean more followers/subcohorts?  Regardless of what "power level" of retinue you have for a particular deity, the rules for determining their levels still needs to be determined.



 That would make sense though. Even when talking about low-rank deities, it would make more sense that a one who has been around for thousands of year would have gathered more followers than one who just gained divinity an hour ago... Even for no other reason that his mortal followers throughout the centuries would have died and joined him (if mortal followers of a deity join that deity upon their death in your setting - many earth mythologies have them go to a specific plane such as Valhalla or Hades...)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Does older mean more followers/subcohorts?




Divine Age was the second modifier I spoke of.

# of Layers x (Square Root) of Divine Age (Table 2-5) multiply the base number of followers.

It only affects the base followers, not Cohorts or Sub-Cohorts.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Regardless of what "power level" of retinue you have for a particular deity, the rules for determining their levels still needs to be determined.




The Leadership rules sort this out handily.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Divine Age was the second modifier I spoke of.
> 
> # of Layers x (Square Root) of Divine Age (Table 2-5) multiply the base number of followers.
> 
> It only affects the base followers, not Cohorts or Sub-Cohorts.




Ah, I see what you're getting at now.  You thought there weren't enough followers with the Leadership rules, so you multiply appropriately.

It's interesting that this will probably cause a dearth of middle-level people in the retinue: there will be many low-level followers, tapering off around perhaps 15 to 20, then nothing until sub-cohorts, which are numerous, then nothing again until the cohort.  I suppose it's not that bad; it's probably better than the core rules as-is.

What unit are you using for Divine Age?  Seconds, years, milennia, what?  It rather matters here.

What happens when a deity already has Leadership?  Do the followers stack or overlap?  What about Legendary Commander?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Dos anyone here want to nominate Eternity Publishing on the 2006 ENnie Awards Fans' Choice Nominations Thread?

1. Two 'votes' are needed to be on the ballot, a nomination and second.
2. Eternity Publishing won't win, but it would be fun to see it on the list.

This is, of course, seperate from the Epic Bestiary's success -- this is for a fan's choice Best Publisher.


----------



## historian

Thanks CRG, I've nominated Eternity.


----------



## Upper_Krust

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Ah, I see what you're getting at now.  You thought there weren't enough followers with the Leadership rules, so you multiply appropriately.








			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> It's interesting that this will probably cause a dearth of middle-level people in the retinue: there will be many low-level followers, tapering off around perhaps 15 to 20, then nothing until sub-cohorts, which are numerous, then nothing again until the cohort.  I suppose it's not that bad; it's probably better than the core rules as-is.




As I see it the Sub-Cohorts are special troops. The kind you would use in a Strike Team. So there would be a slight gap between the upper echelons of the regular troops and the special troops.

The Cohort is the proverbial 'Right-Hand', and in many ways acts like a surrogate Avatar.

I should also point out that I have a method in place so that you can remove minions of a given ECL and add to another ECL.

eg. Baphomet may not have any ECL 4 demons, instead he could have twice as many ECL 5 etc.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What unit are you using for Divine Age?  Seconds, years, milennia, what?  It rather matters here.




Years.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What happens when a deity already has Leadership?  Do the followers stack or overlap?  What about Legendary Commander?




Leadership overlaps.

Legendary Commander is interesting, it seems innocuous enough but I think it could be a tad over powered for a feat. In the meantime though I would just let it add to the Retinue Multiplier, rather than multiply it again.


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I should also point out that I have a method in place so that you can remove minions of a given ECL and add to another ECL.
> 
> eg. Baphomet may not have any ECL 4 demons, instead he could have twice as many ECL 5 etc.



Eep!   I forsee danger here!

A while back, I tried running a D&D wargame, with points to buy creatures for your army, with it costing more for higher HD, and a requirement for "support troops" for higher HD, in order to ensure that there were actual -armies-.  And yet, the victor STILL went to whoever could field the largest critter, and the lower level guys practically didn't factor in at all.  I mean, when your higher HD guys can slaughter lower level guys at will without any real fear... heck, UK, your own EL system (ver 5) backs this up!

Being able to not have lower minions in order to have higher minions simply sounds like a win-win deal to me with absolutely no downside at all.  How could this possibly be balanced?


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Leadership overlaps.
> 
> Legendary Commander is interesting, it seems innocuous enough but I think it could be a tad over powered for a feat. In the meantime though I would just let it add to the Retinue Multiplier, rather than multiply it again.




Using the standard D&D multiplication, it should add a factor of 9.  If a god had Leadership (1), has ruled 1 layer for 40,000 years, and has Legendary Commander (x10), it would have a a total Leadership multiplier of 40,010.  It's pretty weak if you're using the Divine Age multiplier.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Eep!   I forsee danger here!
> 
> A while back, I tried running a D&D wargame, with points to buy creatures for your army, with it costing more for higher HD, and a requirement for "support troops" for higher HD, in order to ensure that there were actual -armies-.  And yet, the victor STILL went to whoever could field the largest critter, and the lower level guys practically didn't factor in at all.  I mean, when your higher HD guys can slaughter lower level guys at will without any real fear... heck, UK, your own EL system (ver 5) backs this up!
> 
> Being able to not have lower minions in order to have higher minions simply sounds like a win-win deal to me with absolutely no downside at all.  How could this possibly be balanced?




Well remember that CR* x2 = EL +4.

*or by extension ECL.

Whereas in Leadership, you halve the number of followers for every +1 ECL.

Is one ECL 18 character equal to 512 ECL 9? 

If anything the difference is skewed in favour of weaker creatures. Although we all know that after a certain point they become irrelevant against foes of a certain power.

So I think it tapers things pretty well.

eg. Instead of 48,360 ECL 2 beings (and half that number per ECL up to a single ECL 18 being), Baphomet could have x17 ECL 18 followers.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Using the standard D&D multiplication, it should add a factor of 9.  If a god had Leadership (1), has ruled 1 layer for 40,000 years, and has Legendary Commander (x10), it would have a a total Leadership multiplier of 40,010.  It's pretty weak if you're using the Divine Age multiplier.




If a deity rules 1 layer and has a divine age of 40,000 years, AND has the Legendary Commander feat then it has a Retinue Multiplier of 210.

Layer = x1
Divine Age: 40,000 = Square Root x200
Legendary Commander = +10 

Total 1 x 200, +10 = 210


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If a deity rules 1 layer and has a divine age of 40,000 years, AND has the Legendary Commander feat then it has a Retinue Multiplier of 210.
> 
> Layer = x1
> Divine Age: 40,000 = Square Root x200
> Legendary Commander = +10
> 
> Total 1 x 200, +10 = 210




Sorry, I read from the wrong line.  That's what I meant.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  

Thanks for providing the update on the website as well as the updated table of contents. 

Sorry to hear that things are taking a bit longer than expected but I can't say I'm completely stunned by the turn of events.  

In all seriousness though I did notice that in the Table of Contents each deities' divine rank on the second page was included in parentheses after their name while it was not so on the first page.  It isn't any big deal but I thought I would point it out for you in case you weren't aware.

BTW, the table of contents look awesome.  I'll probably be asking you a few questions here in the coming days if you don't mind.

Good luck in wrapping up!


----------



## Alzrius

U_K, I just wanted to chime in about posting the rest of the table of contents for _Ascension_. Nicely done, particularly with the handy glossary there! The second page makes it clear that each of the example deities presented is an example of each divine level, in ascending order (e.g. Morgan Le Fay is a Disciple, etc).

I'm a little surprised that Surtur is an Elder One; he always struck me as being a minor deity. I'm guessing his status is due to either how he predates the Norse pantheon and/or his role in Ragnarrok, yes? 

Also, I was very tickled to see that the High Lord is Tetragrammaton. I wonder how many readers will catch that reference.   

It goes without saying that I'm looking forward to this!


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks for providing the update on the website as well as the updated table of contents.




...even that was late.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Sorry to hear that things are taking a bit longer than expected but I can't say I'm completely stunned by the turn of events.




Yes, this is me of course.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In all seriousness though I did notice that in the Table of Contents each deities' divine rank on the second page was included in parentheses after their name while it was not so on the first page.  It isn't any big deal but I thought I would point it out for you in case you weren't aware.




The first page is an old version (it still has the 'Noon' typo).



			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW, the table of contents look awesome.  I'll probably be asking you a few questions here in the coming days if you don't mind.




Always happy to help.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Good luck in wrapping up!




Thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> U_K, I just wanted to chime in about posting the rest of the table of contents for _Ascension_. Nicely done, particularly with the handy glossary there!




I probably could have added more entries to the Glossary, but thats all that fit the space. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The second page makes it clear that each of the example deities presented is an example of each divine level, in ascending order (e.g. Morgan Le Fay is a Disciple, etc).




Yes, thats right. the first page is from an older build and doesn't have all those details.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm a little surprised that Surtur is an Elder One; he always struck me as being a minor deity.




Thats only because D&D treats him like a doofus rather than the primordial cosmic powerhouse.

However, Surtur's Avatar should comfortably fill the role of the more familiar D&D incarnation, albeit with a bit more va va voom than his D&Dg counterpart, most notably in terms of his artifacts.   



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm guessing his status is due to either how he predates the Norse pantheon and/or his role in Ragnarrok, yes?




Exactly. Each Pantheon typically has three adversaries that are not strictly part of the 'pantheon' but were created more as a cosmic balance:

1. A Destroyer (Elder One)
2. Cosmic Umbilical Cord (Greater Deity...typically a dragon or dragon-like)
3. God-Slayer (Intermediate Deity) 

For the Norse Pantheon that would be Surtur, Jormungandr and Fenris Wolf. The Mesopotamian would probably be Apsu, Tiamat and Kingu...etc.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, I was very tickled to see that the High Lord is Tetragrammaton. I wonder how many readers will catch that reference.




Glad you liked it! 

I suspect historian may enjoy the Tetragrammaton art and that hint is for he alone.   



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It goes without saying that I'm looking forward to this!




Then you shouldn't have said it!


----------



## Pssthpok

Hey, UK. 
Interesting... you statted YHWH...
How are things looking for the first week of July?


----------



## Rockhoward56

*Hello!*

HI U-k! happy to see the second index page!
What about the preview of Surtur???  
And about Domedon Doxemedon , because your High Lord has another strange name lol
maybe in Grimoire or another book?
Can't wait for Ascension want the rules for divinity , feats etc.
And your website , you' ve made the stats for galactus as a Old One , before rules for ascension, maybe it's challenge ratings is no longer correct, with all the cosmic stuff to come with this release??  

Good luck pal , and good work!


----------



## Rockhoward56

*yo!*

hello!
Ok For galactus revision , that's a good news! 
For Domedon Doxemodon , it's just for the fun , want to see what a trillion Cr could be?
I think too , he's not very interesting  for epic play  , even cosmic play!
Surtur , surtur!!!!!!!!!!  
Good luck!


----------



## Rockhoward56

*yo*

hello!
Ok For galactus revision , that's a good news! 
For Domedon Doxemodon , it's just for the fun , want to see what a trillion Cr could be?
I think too , he's not very interesting  for epic play  , even cosmic play!
Surtur , surtur!!!!!!!!!!  
Good luck!


----------



## Rockhoward56

hello!
Ok For galactus revision , that's a good news! 
For Domedon Doxemodon , it's just for the fun , want to see what a trillion Cr could be?
I think too , he's not very interesting  for epic play  , even cosmic play!
Surtur , surtur!!!!!!!!!!  
Good luck!


----------



## dante58701

Im thinking that people are forgetting something here...cohorts have cohorts too. At least thats always been my ruling. think of it this way. You join the army. You joined because your father joined and his before him and so on. When you join your loyal to your friends. Then a friend gets promoted, you keep being loyal. He in turn is loyal to some higher ranking guy. You think that higher ranking guy is a dick. So why do you stay? Are you the higher ranking guys cohort?  no...ur your friend's cohort. Even if a high level god has only CR15+ Minions, his minions in turn would have CR1+ minions of their own. That's why there's a command structure in organizations. Take me for example...I hate president bush. But Im loyal to this country because of the family and friends I have here. His charisma is about a 2...by all rights he should have no followers, but this country is filled with people who have low wisdom scores and refuse to think for themselves. The same circumstances could apply to fantasy campaigns. Even idiots with bad personalities can rule the land, provided even bigger idiots allow such an atrocity. High charisma scores and leadership skill dont truly help much when your using fear to rule the land. High charisma and leadership can help...but they are quite optional from any realistic standpoint. Only in an idealized society will such things truly function as they should. The world isnt fair....jerks rule the world, money rules the world, fear rules the world. But the world is seldom ruled by charisma and leadership. Jerks are only charismatic to the dimwitted masses. All you really need to rule is a tactic that works. 

So...in conclusion...I wouldnt worry too much about the mechanics of charisma or leadership. It's a novelty to be charismatic or a leader, but not all leaders are either charismatic, nor are they particularly good at leading. Many leaders who have millions of followers are just good at letting the people around them do their jobs for them and fooling others into believing they are doing all the work.   He He He !!! You guys think too much!!!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Hey, UK.




Hiya mate! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Interesting... you statted YHWH...




Indeed, although I don't consider YHWH GOD, just for the record.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> How are things looking for the first week of July?




I will not be making that deadline, as I already mentioned on the website. Sorry.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> HI U-k! happy to see the second index page!




Hey there - glad you liked it.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> What about the preview of Surtur???




I don't have it finished yet.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> And about Domedon Doxemedon , because your High Lord has another strange name lol maybe in Grimoire or another book?




I dunno, maybe. I don't see a great need for it and thus its not really serving any purpose.

I only need one High Lord example, not two.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Can't wait for Ascension want the rules for divinity , feats etc.








			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> And your website , you' ve made the stats for galactus as a Old One, before rules for ascension, maybe it's challenge ratings is no longer correct, with all the cosmic stuff to come with this release??




Galactus was created pre-Ascension, and there are no doubt some discrepancies (notably his artifacts). Once Ascension is finished I will go over Galactus again.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Good luck pal , and good work!




Thanks.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante, 

Before I begin do you think in future you could tone the harshness down a notch, I really don't think its called for, there could be kids reading this. If you constantly have to resort to insults (d*ck, dimwitted, idiots, jerks etc.) to make a point then you only end up making yourself look foolish.

Thanks.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im thinking that people are forgetting something here...cohorts have cohorts too. At least thats always been my ruling. think of it this way. You join the army. You joined because your father joined and his before him and so on. When you join your loyal to your friends. Then a friend gets promoted, you keep being loyal. He in turn is loyal to some higher ranking guy. You think that higher ranking guy is a dick. So why do you stay? Are you the higher ranking guys cohort?  no...ur your friend's cohort. Even if a high level god has only CR15+ Minions, his minions in turn would have CR1+ minions of their own. That's why there's a command structure in organizations.




I think you are confusing something thats incredibly simple. 

If cohorts are part of a retinue/army, then they don't all have their own individual retinues/armies, though they may well command fractions of the larger force.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Take me for example...I hate president bush. But Im loyal to this country because of the family and friends I have here. His charisma is about a 2...by all rights he should have no followers, but this country is filled with people who have low wisdom scores and refuse to think for themselves.




An interesting point, *although I don't want to go off on a tangent with a political discussion*.

Though I did see an interesting documentary (I think it was entitled "Outfoxed") recently about the Fox News network in America and how ridiculously biased it is towards the Republican Party and how it actually subverts the American people into believing lies and half-truths. However, the point I am trying to make is that in the real world the media plays a very big part in selling politicians to the masses, thats something a fantasy campaign doesn't really have to deal with.

If you were playing a d20 Modern campaign your Leadership Score would probably have a Media modifier/penalty.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> The same circumstances could apply to fantasy campaigns. Even idiots with bad personalities can rule the land, provided even bigger idiots allow such an atrocity. High charisma scores and leadership skill dont truly help much when your using fear to rule the land. High charisma and leadership can help...but they are quite optional from any realistic standpoint. Only in an idealized society will such things truly function as they should. The world isnt fair....jerks rule the world, money rules the world, fear rules the world. But the world is seldom ruled by charisma and leadership. Jerks are only charismatic to the dimwitted masses. All you really need to rule is a tactic that works.
> 
> So...in conclusion...I wouldnt worry too much about the mechanics of charisma or leadership. It's a novelty to be charismatic or a leader, but not all leaders are either charismatic, nor are they particularly good at leading. Many leaders who have millions of followers are just good at letting the people around them do their jobs for them and fooling others into believing they are doing all the work.   He He He !!! You guys think too much!!!




Your leadership score is based on level (or rather ECL), not just Charisma, in fact Charisma is generally only a small part of it.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> The first page is an old version (it still has the 'Noon' typo).




I suspected that.

I concur in all the positive comments regarding the table of contents; everything looks extremely cool.  



> I suspect historian may enjoy the Tetragrammaton art and that hint is for he alone.




 

You are too kind sir and I simply can't wait to see this.

Getting quadrilateral on me?  



> Thats only because D&D treats him (Surtur) like a doofus rather than the primordial cosmic powerhouse.




I almost laughed aloud when I read this.  

I'm going to enjoy pitting Surtur against one of the Orichalcum constructs.



> Galactus was created pre-Ascension, and there are no doubt some discrepancies (notably his artifacts). Once Ascension is finished I will go over Galactus again.




I am sure Abraxas will be waiting for him.


Thanks for the hint dude.


----------



## Fieari

Hopefully without going into a religion debate, just skirting the issue:

While I do believe YHWH is GOD, I can also accept the potential that His mere name is an avatar, and as such is a rank or so lower.  So... cool.


----------



## Rockhoward56

hello!
Ok For galactus revision , that's a good news! 
For Domedon Doxemodon , it's just for the fun , want to see what a trillion Cr could be?
I think too , he's not very interesting  for epic play  , even cosmic play!
Surtur , surtur!!!!!!!!!!  
Good luck!


----------



## Cheiromancer

Fieari said:
			
		

> Hopefully without going into a religion debate, just skirting the issue:
> 
> While I do believe YHWH is GOD, I can also accept the potential that His mere name is an avatar, and as such is a rank or so lower.  So... cool.




Interestingly, I was just reading some cabalistic stuff.  Which says that the name of God varies according to the state of being you are considering; these states of being (or maybe consciousness) are displayed on the Tree of Life- a diagram of 10 "spheres" interconnected by a web of 22 "paths".  YHWH is proper to God only on the bottom 9 spheres- in the highest Sphere, Kether (crown), God's name is AHIH (aleph-heh-yod-heh). ("I am" in Hebrew).

Cabala is speculative, so I don't think there is any offense in giving the cabalistic attribution of a name.


----------



## thefnitalian

Hiya UK

Like everybody else on the boards I too have been patiently waiting for the release of the text version playtest document of assension. Would you tell me more about the lipkins: i am throughly interested in their mechanics as former supreme deities and librarians of the akashric records(universal consciousness)?


----------



## dante58701

Aye...quite right. I forget that children ma be present. I'll tone it down a notch. 

Media modifier...excellent idea!!!


----------



## Fieari

I'd assume that the Lipika have a handful of infinite stats, some omni abilities, and other insanely powerful goodness.  You don't want to piss them off.  I mean, some librarians can give you really stern looks when you speak too loud or return books late, but _these_ librarians?  Yikes!


----------



## Upper_Krust

thefnitalian said:
			
		

> Hiya UK




Hey there! 

...and welcome to the boards.



			
				thefnitalian said:
			
		

> Like everybody else on the boards I too have been patiently waiting for the release of the text version playtest document of assension. Would you tell me more about the lipkins: i am throughly interested in their mechanics as former supreme deities and librarians of the akashric records(universal consciousness)?




Well the Lipika are unbelievably old and every few eternities one of them goes mad.

Lipika look like incredibly ancient members of whatever race is looking at them. So a human would see an impossibly old wizened human with really long hair/beard. Human looking Lipika have prehensile hair and can wield many objects/weapons in their hair.

Due to their intimate knowledge of the Akashic Records the main power of the Lipika is to erase beings from reality, they 'scribble you out' as it were.

Their amnesia/insanity means they are not as powerful as when they were Supreme Beings, simply because they have forgotten most of their abilities. They'll be in and around Time lord type CR, perhaps a bit tougher.


----------



## thefnitalian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey there!
> 
> ...and welcome to the boards.
> 
> 
> 
> Well the Lipika are unbelievably old and every few eternities one of them goes mad.
> 
> Lipika look like incredibly ancient members of whatever race is looking at them. So a human would see an impossibly old wizened human with really long hair/beard. Human looking Lipika have prehensile hair and can wield many objects/weapons in their hair.
> 
> Due to their intimate knowledge of the Akashic Records the main power of the Lipika is to erase beings from reality, they 'scribble you out' as it were.
> 
> Their amnesia/insanity means they are not as powerful as when they were Supreme Beings, simply because they have forgotten most of their abilities. They'll be in and around Time lord type CR, perhaps a bit tougher.



 Interesting...
I like the idea of cosmic abilities and the like as well but I'm not understanding where "Trancendental" abilities fall into place if Divine are for up to greater power, cosmic are up to time lord, and omnific are up to supreme being. Would you be able to give us an example of one for instance and where it fits in to your whole grand scheme of things?


----------



## Kavon

If you look at the Table of Content, you'll see that it goes like this:
• Mortal Abilities (Feats)
• Divine Abilities
• Cosmic Abilities
• Transcendental Abilities
• Omnific Abilities

So they're between Cosmic and Omnific Abilities :3

Edity: Also, there's quite something between Greater Deities and Time Lords, so there's plenty of space to fit it in :B


----------



## Sledge

Well I am done my school till after I move.  That means I get to post a nag message here everyday until I have my IH goodness!    So how much longer UK?  I'm moving in one week and will be running the epic level game shortly after that.  Would be really nice to have a book to go with it.


----------



## DeadlyUematsu

Can't wait until Tuesday. I'm very excited.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				thefnitalian said:
			
		

> Interesting...
> I like the idea of cosmic abilities and the like as well but I'm not understanding where "Trancendental" abilities fall into place if Divine are for up to greater power, cosmic are up to time lord, and omnific are up to supreme being. Would you be able to give us an example of one for instance and where it fits in to your whole grand scheme of things?




Mortals: Feats (+ Divine Abilities - esoteric)
Immortals: Divine Abilities (+ Cosmic Abilities - esoteric)
Sidereals: Cosmic Abilities (+ Transcendental Abilities - esoteric)
Eternals: Transcendental Abilities (+ Omnific Abilities - esoteric)
Supernals: Omnific Abilites


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Sledge mate! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> Well I am done my school till after I move.  That means I get to post a nag message here everyday until I have my IH goodness!    So how much longer UK?  I'm moving in one week and will be running the epic level game shortly after that.  Would be really nice to have a book to go with it.




Being able to bend space and time would be 'really nice' too. 

Unfortunately I have to operate within the annoying contraints that are the laws of physics.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello there! 



			
				DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> Can't wait until Tuesday. I'm very excited.




Dude, you haven't been keeping up with current events (on the website for example). I will not be able to make the July 4th release date, its as simple as that.

I apologise, but remind people that THIS IS ME - I don't DO release dates.   

As for the pre-order people I am extra sorry to keep you waiting another few weeks. But without your help there would be no Ascension - its that simple.

No one wants this book finished more than I do. I know you lot are almost as eager, but I ask you to be patient.


----------



## CRGreathouse

The good news for Krust is that I haven't preordered.  He'll get my money (full price!) when it hits RPGNow.


----------



## Fieari

I know it'll be worth the wait, but I still can't help but think I'd rather have an incomplete version now...

But then, it is U_K we're talking about.


----------



## Rhuarc

It was the same with the Bestiary and will be the same with all coming products of UK ^^
But as we have seen with his first work, it's really worth waiting.

Keep up the great work mate, hope for you and of course all of us as well that you'll be finished soon


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> It was the same with the Bestiary and will be the same with all coming products of UK ^^




Well, not the print products.   



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> But as we have seen with his first work, it's really worth waiting.




I guarantee it. 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Keep up the great work mate, hope for you and of course all of us as well that you'll be finished soon




I appreciate the support dude!


----------



## Rockhoward56

*hello*

Hello U_K!
Some questions: what about the names of the Nexus GGGW (great , great , great wyrm),Timber and Titanium dragons? please   
For Domedon Doxemodon , i'm still very curious about his stats? will Tetragrammaton be higher in stats or below?(just for the fun , because Time Lords and High Lords have Cr in millions!)
see you later!


----------



## Eversius

Though Domedon Doxomedon is called the "aeon of aeons", Bythos (among many other names), the first aeon, is more likely to be the most powerful, as Bythos is the aeon that represents GOD itself. From Bythos came Sige (Silence), and then came the next generation of aeons, the Male and Female aspects, Caen (Power) and Akhana (Truth/Love), and from that pairing a next generation, etc. In fact, I've never even seen Domedon Doxomedon listed among the aeons except in the Gospel of the Egyptians.

Of course, I have no idea what UK's immortal hierarchy/cosmology will be like, so all I can offer is my two cents.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Ever played Nobilis?


----------



## Eversius

Erm, no.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Hello U_K!




Howdy! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Some questions: what about the names of the Nexus GGGW (great , great , great wyrm),Timber and Titanium dragons? please




Wow, put me on the spot! 

The Timber Dragon GGW is called *Irminsul*.

I do recall basing the Titanium Dragon on the Ferrous Dragons. I seem to recall an issue of Dragon (#200 or thereabouts) had the stats for the King of Ferrous Dragons. I can't recall his name offhand, but whatever it is, that would be the GGGW of Titanium Dragons.

The Nexus GGW is called *Lorentzian*.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> For Domedon Doxemodon , i'm still very curious about his stats? will Tetragrammaton be higher in stats or below? (just for the fun , because Time Lords and High Lords have Cr in millions!)
> see you later!




Domodon Doxomedon is more powerful than Tetragrammaton...as I determine them that is.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The Timber Dragon GGW is called *Irminsul*.
> 
> The Nexus GGW is called *Lorentzian*.




Woot! Dropping names of the cosmic powerhouses is always cool! Though it's interesting that these are great great wyrms, as opposed to great great great wyrms.



> _I do recall basing the Titanium Dragon on the Ferrous Dragons. I seem to recall an issue of Dragon (#200 or thereabouts) had the stats for the King of Ferrous Dragons. I can't recall his name offhand, but whatever it is, that would be the GGGW of Titanium Dragons._




_Dragon_ #170 was the issue, and the non-divine ruler of the Ferrous Dragons is Gruaghlothor.



> _Domodon Doxomedon is more powerful than Tetragrammaton...as I determine them that is._




I'm a little curious about who this is. Googling him seems to pull up some sites indicating he's God (the Supreme Being) in an Egyptian religion, though I'm not sure which one.

That said, it'd be interesting to see your take, U_K, on a second, more powerful High Lord, even if you didn't give stats for him. I assume this Domedon is now a Lipika, since there can be only one High Lord (I presume).

Also, if YHWH isn't God, then I'm guessing the DM is?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Woot! Dropping names of the cosmic powerhouses is always cool! Though it's interesting that these are great great wyrms, as opposed to great great great wyrms.




I meant GGGW.   



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> _Dragon_ #170 was the issue, and the non-divine ruler of the Ferrous Dragons is Gruaghlothor.




Instantly forgettable name, hence the reason I forgot it.   



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm a little curious about who this is. Googling him seems to pull up some sites indicating he's God (the Supreme Being) in an Egyptian religion, though I'm not sure which one.




The occult always has an eement of mystery and vagueness - I like that. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That said, it'd be interesting to see your take, U_K, on a second, more powerful High Lord, even if you didn't give stats for him.




Well its something to do in the future when I get the chance.   



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I assume this Domedon is now a Lipika, since there can be only one High Lord (I presume).




There can be lots of High Lords...and no, hes not a Lipika.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, if YHWH isn't God, then I'm guessing the DM is?


----------



## dante58701

I wanna play a lipika someday!!! 

Could be fun playing a guy who used to be god. 

I mean, once ur not god anymore, what's the next adventure from there?

Id imagine...exploring the possibility of another omniverse could be fun. 

Or creating our own omniverse!!!


----------



## thefnitalian

UK,
Would you be able to provide us with some more teasers for ascension. Such as some of the stats of some of the elder,first, high ones or maybe like a sample cosmic/transendental/omnific ability?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well its something to do in the future when I get the chance.




It could be a web enhancement for when the IH is completely finished and released.   



> _There can be lots of High Lords...and no, hes not a Lipika._




Hm, I had assumed, apparently wrongly, that there could only be one High Lord. Given that the High Lord is the one who controls the Akashic Library, which is the whole of the omniverse, and how previous Supreme Beings retired and became Lipika, it seemed natural to deduce that there was only one High Lord. It'll be interesting to see the results of there being more than one at the same time (particularly if they're enemies).


----------



## historian

I would gladly pay for a web enhancement of Aeons after everything else comes out but, practically, I'm guessing it would be a bear to write-up.



> Given that the High Lord is the one who controls the Akashic Library, which is the whole of the omniverse, and how previous Supreme Beings retired and became Lipika, it seemed natural to deduce that there was only one High Lord.




I'm not speaking from a position of actual knowledge but I had envisioned High Lords actually acting as GOD proxies (judges basically) in the Metaverse/Multiverse and occasionally in the lower dimensions.

I hadn't even concluded that they had access to the highest dimension/Akashic Library (that being the realm of the Supreme Being and Lipika).



> Well the Lipika are unbelievably old and every few eternities one of them goes mad.
> 
> Lipika look like incredibly ancient members of whatever race is looking at them. So a human would see an impossibly old wizened human with really long hair/beard. Human looking Lipika have prehensile hair and can wield many objects/weapons in their hair.
> 
> Due to their intimate knowledge of the Akashic Records the main power of the Lipika is to erase beings from reality, they 'scribble you out' as it were.
> 
> Their amnesia/insanity means they are not as powerful as when they were Supreme Beings, simply because they have forgotten most of their abilities. They'll be in and around Time lord type CR, perhaps a bit tougher.




That is wildly cool.  

BTW U_K I had the chance to seriously play around with the Bestiary over the last few days and would concur in your view that the Nexus Dragon's CR might be underestimated.  The Transdimensional and Extradimensional abilities make it REALLY powerful.  

At higher age categories it can fight on even footing with a Neutronium Golem if its Extradimensional ability applies.

Additionally I'll plan to adopt your anti-magic suggestions from your "Absolution" website series in full.  This seems to come in very handy about the time ones starts monkeying about with Sidereals.


----------



## Anabstercorian

The reason I mention Nobilis is because it's one of the other games that allows characters to act on a cosmic level and gives them intense power; I was curious as to UK's opinion of it.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*yop*

Thank you very much Uk!
Preview of Surtur would be great !    (lobbying , lobbying....)
Lipika would have Cr in quadrillions?lol
Want to do my new Corellon Larethian and my Phoenix with your rules!!
good luck for your work!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there! 



			
				thefnitalian said:
			
		

> UK,
> Would you be able to provide us with some more teasers for ascension. Such as some of the stats of some of the elder,first, high ones or maybe like a sample cosmic/transendental/omnific ability?




I'll have some more teasers 'soonish'.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Alzrius said:
			
		

> It could be a web enhancement for when the IH is completely finished and released.




Lets just get the thing finished before we start talking about the like of that.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hm, I had assumed, apparently wrongly, that there could only be one High Lord.




No.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Given that the High Lord is the one who controls the Akashic Library,




High Lords are NOT the Supreme Being, though one of them could be.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> which is the whole of the omniverse, and how previous Supreme Beings retired and became Lipika, it seemed natural to deduce that there was only one High Lord.




Multiple High Lords, one (current) Supreme Being at a time, likely multiple retired Supreme Beings, some (but not all) of which go mad and become Lipika.

All Lipika are retired Supreme Beings, but not all retired Supreme Beings are Lipika. 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It'll be interesting to see the results of there being more than one at the same time (particularly if they're enemies).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Heya matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I would gladly pay for a web enhancement of Aeons after everything else comes out but, practically, I'm guessing it would be a bear to write-up.




I'll get right on it as soon as I finish Ascension, Grimoire, Chroonicle, Vol's 2 & 3 of the Bestiary and the 20 volumes of the Immortals Index.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm not speaking from a position of actual knowledge but I had envisioned High Lords actually acting as GOD proxies (judges basically) in the Metaverse/Multiverse and occasionally in the lower dimensions.




High Lords are like the Avatars of the Supreme Being.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I hadn't even concluded that they had access to the highest dimension/Akashic Library (that being the realm of the Supreme Being and Lipika).




High Lords don't have access to the Great Library, although they can try, I think High Lords have a 1/4600 chance of penetrating the Great Wall and confronting the Supremem Being. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That is wildly cool.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> BTW U_K I had the chance to seriously play around with the Bestiary over the last few days and would concur in your view that the Nexus Dragon's CR might be underestimated.  The Transdimensional and Extradimensional abilities make it REALLY powerful.




I agree. The nexus dragon was created prior to any multiplication ideas on CR's.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> At higher age categories it can fight on even footing with a Neutronium Golem if its Extradimensional ability applies.




Indeed, they are very tough.

I suspect the Wyrmlings could be about x4 CR, while the GW is closer to x16 CR multiplier. Although I have just conjured up those numbers out of thin air. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Additionally I'll plan to adopt your anti-magic suggestions from your "Absolution" website series in full.  This seems to come in very handy about the time ones starts monkeying about with Sidereals.




Glad you are finding it interesting.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dude! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> The reason I mention Nobilis is because it's one of the other games that allows characters to act on a cosmic level and gives them intense power; I was curious as to UK's opinion of it.




A review will be forthcoming when I get the chance.

As will the Primal Order review which is 80% typed up and has been for a few months.

Don't expect either until after Ascesnion is on completed though.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I'll get right on it as soon as I finish Ascension, Grimoire, Chroonicle, Vol's 2 & 3 of the Bestiary and the 20 volumes of the Immortals Index.




 



> High Lords are like the Avatars of the Supreme Being.




Sorry to appear confused but I had gathered as much from the Bestiary.  



> High Lords don't have access to the Great Library, although they can try, I think High Lords have a 1/4600 chance of penetrating the Great Wall and confronting the Supremem Being.




I don't know if anyone really realizes at this point how cool Ascension is actually going to be, I really don't.



> I agree. The nexus dragon was created prior to any multiplication ideas on CR's.




The multiplication idea seems reasonable from my vantage point.  Though, admittedly, there just aren't that many CR 500 to 10,000 things around to test on . . . yet.  

By the way someone previously (maybe Fieari) mentioned something about the Star Turtle and whether much would have a chance against it (CR 84,431,558).  For what it's worth I believe it would have virtually no chance against a GW Nexus Dragon.



> I suspect the Wyrmlings could be about x4 CR, while the GW is closer to x16 CR multiplier. Although I have just conjured up those numbers out of thin air.




Makes sense in light of the breath weapon.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Thank you very much Uk!




I don't recall for what, but you are welcome. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Preview of Surtur would be great !    (lobbying , lobbying....)




I know, I know.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Lipika would have Cr in quadrillions?lol




No, they forget most of their powers, so they would only be about CR 10,000 or thereabouts.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Want to do my new Corellon Larethian and my Phoenix with your rules!!
> good luck for your work!




Corellon should be easy enough.

Ascension: Page 25 Creating your own Deities.

Table 2-10...Greater Deity = 8d6+72 Hit Dice/levels

However I'll just choose 101 since thats what his 1st Ed. Levels added up to. 

Table 2-11...Determines Class Displacement.

However, I'll just take the (suggested) maximum of 4 classes*, since that seems to parallel his 1st Ed. stats. Primary: Sorcerer/Ranger Secondary: Druid/Bard

Corellon is Sorcerer 34/Ranger 33/Druid 17/Bard 17

*No that doesn't include Prestige Classes.

Table 2-12...determines typical Greater Deity ability scores. Average 48, Min 24, Max 72.

Table 2-13...determines Corellon's ability scores broken down for someone with his Class Levels.

Str 44, Con 40, Dex 72, Int 28, Wis 56, Cha 48

All thats before things like Divine Abilities (I'm thinking Charisma could be a touch higher).

ECL 181, equipment:

Mithril Chainmail: +45/+45 worth of special abilities (Glittering etc.).

Star Sword: +32/+32 worth of special abilities (Shining Nexus etc.).

Bow: +32/Dread (Orc), Unerring Composite Longbow.

One other artifact.

Possible non epic items...Boots of Elvenkind, Speed and Striding & Springing, Cloak of Displacement (Major), Elvenkind & Resistance +5

Anyway, thats all just off the top of my head with some help from Page 25 of Ascension.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hello! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I don't know if anyone really realizes at this point how cool Ascension is actually going to be, I really don't.




...and if I don't get it finished no ones ever going to realise it.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> The multiplication idea seems reasonable from my vantage point.  Though, admittedly, there just aren't that many CR 500 to 10,000 things around to test on . . . yet.
> 
> By the way someone previously (maybe Fieari) mentioned something about the Star Turtle and whether much would have a chance against it (CR 84,431,558).  For what it's worth I believe it would have virtually no chance against a GW Nexus Dragon.




Thats why I have a new clause in Ascension (and the print bestiary) that has the bonds of reality break down at 1000 Hit Dice*.

*Of course multi-dimensional beings and can exceed this naturally.  

The whole thing goes doo-lally if you just keep adding Hit Dice without the powers to back that Hit Dice up.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> High Lords are NOT the Supreme Being, though one of them could be.




Huh, looks like that was a mistaken assumption on my part then. So is the Supreme Being beyond statistics? I'd like to think that there was a point where a lesser creature would be able to gather enough power to challenge even the Supreme Being, and have a chance of success (though I imagine such a creature would have to be a powerful High Lord at the very least).



> _All Lipika are retired Supreme Beings, but not all retired Supreme Beings are Lipika. _




Hm, so do they keep their powers intact, revert down to the next-highest divine level (High Lord), or something else altogether?


----------



## Sledge

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Corellon should be easy enough.
> Ascension: Page 25 Creating your own Deities.
> Table 2-10...Greater Deity = 8d6+72 Hit Dice/levels
> However I'll just choose 101 since thats what his 1st Ed. Levels added up to.
> Table 2-11...Determines Class Displacement.
> However, I'll just take the (suggested) maximum of 4 classes*, since that seems to parallel his 1st Ed. stats. Primary: Sorcerer/Ranger Secondary: Druid/Bard
> Corellon is Sorcerer 34/Ranger 33/Druid 17/Bard 17
> *No that doesn't include Prestige Classes.
> Table 2-12...determines typical Greater Deity ability scores. Average 48, Min 24, Max 72.
> Table 2-13...determines Corellon's ability scores broken down for someone with his Class Levels.
> Str 44, Con 40, Dex 72, Int 28, Wis 56, Cha 48
> All thats before things like Divine Abilities (I'm thinking Charisma could be a touch higher).
> ECL 181, equipment:
> Mithril Chainmail: +45/+45 worth of special abilities (Glittering etc.).
> Star Sword: +32/+32 worth of special abilities (Shining Nexus etc.).
> Bow: +32/Dread (Orc), Unerring Composite Longbow.
> One other artifact.
> Possible non epic items...Boots of Elvenkind, Speed and Striding & Springing, Cloak of Displacement (Major), Elvenkind & Resistance +5
> Anyway, thats all just off the top of my head with some help from Page 25 of Ascension.



Now that kind of teasing is just cruel!  We are trying to wait as patiently as possible, without much in the way of previews, while you have access to your actual manuscript.  The time has come to share with us!    
Seriously keep working at it and let us know its ready soon!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Huh, looks like that was a mistaken assumption on my part then. So is the Supreme Being beyond statistics?




Not exactly, the current Supreme Being is the most powerful High Lord (probably).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'd like to think that there was a point where a lesser creature would be able to gather enough power to challenge even the Supreme Being, and have a chance of success (though I imagine such a creature would have to be a powerful High Lord at the very least).




See above. Indeed.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Hm, so do they keep their powers intact, revert down to the next-highest divine level (High Lord), or something else altogether?




Something else altogether (current build) although they are a bit Time Lordyish.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Could someone do me a favour (?). I remember not so long ago a few people (RockHoward and Alzrius spring to mind) uncovered a few flaws in the Epic Bestiary.

Dragon Virtual Size Categories was one, Kabiri's Armour Class and Attacks was another.

I was contacted by the Publisher a few hours ago to make some changes necessary for the print process. Basically this is going to be able to give me a final shot at fixing all the errata done so far. Could someone post all the recent errata mentioned in one place to save me looking through this entire thread. 

Oh, and if anyone else has noticed any new errata post it within the next day or so.

Thanks.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*thanks uk for corellon*

The final errata for Kabiri should be 89 (didn't add the base Ca :\ )
For Alabaster is Initiave should be 128 and retired the supreme Initiative for Superior Initiative


----------



## Alzrius

I've mentioned this before, but I'll reiterate it here. The second paragraph under the "Combat" header for Nimrod: "Nimrod’s natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields ignore all forms of damage reduction." has no mechanical basis for how he's able to do that. That line should either be struck, or something should be added to the akalich template itself justifying how he's able to do that.

Nimrod's initiative seems to be off. He has +13 from his Dexterity (taking the _gloves_ into account), and Improved Initiative for another +4, but his listed Dexterity score is only +15, instead of +17 (unless there's some sort of penalty I'm not aware of).

Alabaster's initiative should be +128 (+60 luck, +60 Dex, +8 Superior Initiative (which is currently misnamed Supreme Iniaitive)), not +150.

In it's Possessions line, the Elohim's entry says it has a "_+21 animating_" shield, which should be _animated_.

The Kyriotates has an initiative of +25. However, with a +12 divine bonus, a Dexterity of 30 (+10 bonus), and Improved Initiative (+4), it should have an initiative of +26.

The Malakim has an initiative of +28. However, with a +8 divine bonus, a Dexterity of 38 (+14), and Superior Initiative (+8), it should have an initiative of +30.

Regarding Kabiri's AC, the listing of bonuses in his AC line is correct, but the total value they give for his AC should be 89.

Regarding Kabiri's attacks, with +35 BAB, Strength 28 (+9), a +18 weapon, +6 divine bonus, and +1 Epic Prowess, should give him an attack bonus of +69 for his weapon attacks, not +71. Also, you have his critical threat multiplier as being 15-20 for a longsword. This seems to be a result of stacking _keen_ and Improved Critical, which isn't allowed.

In his Possessions line, Kabiri's magic items and artifacts should be italicized.

The issue of dragon virtual size categories isn't errata, per se. Rather, it was noted that the tables showing the dragons' stats didn't take into account VSC adjustments to natural armor or Constitution (including Con-based stats). Personally, I don't think this is an issue, since the VSCs are noted under the Special Abilities column for each dragon, and it makes more sense (IMO) to have them be listed separately.

The Juvenile Cometary Dragon has "Supreme Initiative." This should be Superior Initiative. The actual initiative score it has is correct.

The Wyrmling Nexus Dragon has "Supreme Initiative." This should be Superior Initiative. The actual initiative score it has is correct.

The Old Platinum Dragon has _holy aura_ and _holy word_ as prepared spells, which seems a little silly since it can use those as spell-like abilities at will. Also the _holy aura (constant)_ spell-like ability should probably get it's own line saying it's always active, and if dispelled can be reactivated as a free action on the Old Platinum Dragon's next turn (see the entry for the Solar in the MM for an example of this).

The Ioun Golem has a Dexterity of 68 (a +29 bonus), but it has an Initiative listing of -1.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Also, I maintain that the Cometary Dragon's Seventh Sense ability remains an unplayable mess.


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Corellon should be easy enough.
> 
> Ascension: Page 25 Creating your own Deities.
> 
> Table 2-10...Greater Deity = 8d6+72 Hit Dice/levels
> 
> However I'll just choose 101 since thats what his 1st Ed. Levels added up to.
> 
> Table 2-11...Determines Class Displacement.
> 
> However, I'll just take the (suggested) maximum of 4 classes*, since that seems to parallel his 1st Ed. stats. Primary: Sorcerer/Ranger Secondary: Druid/Bard
> 
> Corellon is Sorcerer 34/Ranger 33/Druid 17/Bard 17
> 
> *No that doesn't include Prestige Classes.
> 
> Table 2-12...determines typical Greater Deity ability scores. Average 48, Min 24, Max 72.
> 
> Table 2-13...determines Corellon's ability scores broken down for someone with his Class Levels.
> 
> Str 44, Con 40, Dex 72, Int 28, Wis 56, Cha 48
> 
> All thats before things like Divine Abilities (I'm thinking Charisma could be a touch higher).
> 
> ECL 181, equipment:
> 
> Mithril Chainmail: +45/+45 worth of special abilities (Glittering etc.).
> 
> Star Sword: +32/+32 worth of special abilities (Shining Nexus etc.).
> 
> Bow: +32/Dread (Orc), Unerring Composite Longbow.
> 
> One other artifact.
> 
> Possible non epic items...Boots of Elvenkind, Speed and Striding & Springing, Cloak of Displacement (Major), Elvenkind & Resistance +5
> 
> Anyway, thats all just off the top of my head with some help from Page 25 of Ascension.



I'm usually among those who patiently wait for the book without chiming in very often, but I agree with Sledge: this teaser was MEAN


----------



## Upper_Krust

Thanks Alzrius dude! 

I have amended all the errata (although some of the items have changed in the print version so I had to double check the bonuses).

_eg. Kabiri wears bracers of epic armor +32 and the Broken Crown. He also wields a +11 keen, prismatic, unholy adamantine longsword of wounding._

Hiya Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Also, I maintain that the Cometary Dragon's Seventh Sense ability remains an unplayable mess.




Its a tricky power to explain.



			
				Epic Bestiary said:
			
		

> *Seventh Sense (Ex):* A cometary dragon’s senses extend one round into the future. It can never be caught flat-footed or surprised and gains its dexterity bonus against foes it cannot perceive. To adjudicate this, allow the dragon to replay the round again with the knowledge of what is going to happen next. The dragon can replay a number of rounds each day equal to its age category, beyond that, the time stream becomes too muddied for it to perceive until time once again is allowed to take its natural course.




I am open to suggestions as to how to improve it. Although I need to keep roughly the same amount of text.


----------



## Cheiromancer

With 7th sense, couldn't the DM just have the players declare their actions for the next round, then adjust the dragon's actions accordingly?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

By the way I meant to say, if anyone (or multiple people) come up with some ideas for a *Ring of Unelemental Command*. I'll probably add it to the Print Version (and list them in the credits).

I don't like the look of the quarter page of whitespace on the Unelemental entry, it stands out, given virtually all the other pages are filled to the brim. 

I have a few ideas for the item myself, but I just never really followed them through.


----------



## Pssthpok

Howabout...
*Seventh Sense:* A cometary dragon’s senses extend one round into the future. It can never be caught flat-footed or surprised and gains its dexterity bonus against foes it cannot perceive. To adjudicate this, the dragon is unaffected by events that occur in one round until the following round. The dragon can replay a number of rounds each day equal to its age category, beyond that, the time stream becomes too muddied for it to perceive until time once again is allowed to take its natural course.

and...

*Ring of Unelemental Command:* This ring is a simple loop of some unknown black metal. Unelemental creatures cannot approach within 20 ft. of the wearer of this ring. If the wearer desires, he can forego this protection and instead attemt to charm or dominate the unelemental.
Creatures from the plane to which the ring is attuned who attack the wearer take a -4 penalty on their attack rolls. The ring wearer makes applicable saving throws from the extraplanar creature’s attacks with a +4 resistance bonus. He gains a +8 morale bonus on all attack rolls against such creatures. Any weapon he uses bypasses the damage reduction of such creatures, regardless of any qualities the weapon may or may not have.
The wearer of the ring is able to converse with unelemental creatures. These creatures recognize that he wears the ring. They show a healthy respect for the wearer if alignments are similar. If alignments are opposed, creatures fear the wearer if he is strong. If he is weak, they hate and desire to slay him.
The possessor of a ring of epic elemental command takes a -4 saving throw penalty against spells and effects involving the elements (acid, cold, electricity, fire). 
In addition to the powers described above, the ring gives its wearer the following abilities:
•_deeper darkness, disintegrate, greater dispel magic_ (unlimited use)
•_death ward, entropic shield_ (unlimited use, wearer only)
•_destruction, scintillating pattern, waves of exhaustion_ (3/day)
Overwhelming conjuration; Caster Level: 41st; Prerequisites: Forge Epic Ring, summon monster VI, all appropriate spells; Market Price: ? gp; Cost to Create: ?


----------



## Anabstercorian

You have my sympathy on the seventh-sense thing.  It's a bitch of a situation; cramming rules on how to handle a temporal paradox in to a very short paragraph.

Seventh Sense (Ex): A cometary dragon’s senses extend one round into the future; it can't be caught flat-footed or surprised and gains its dexterity bonus against foes it can't perceive. Because this ability creates paradoxes that must be resolved, the dragon is not affected by any effect or attack until one round after they are exposed to it; they can use this grace period to pre-emptively heal any damage it may cause or activate defenses against it, such as a _Death Ward_ to counter a death effect.

This removes the age-category scaling; I'm aware of that.  I believe the Time Folding ability gives the Cometary Dragon adequate age-dependent beef.

Edit: Beaten!  Great minds think alike, Pssthpok.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Here's my take on the ring:

Ring of Unelemental Command: This 'ring' is and is not; it has no physical or incorporeal existence and cannot be damaged by normal means, and can only be perceived as a fading opaque black band through the use of _True Seeing_, _Analyze Dweomer_, and similar magic.  Anyone who can perceive the ring can manipulate it to place it upon their person, though it is weightless and frictionless until worn, whereupon it becomes as weighty as lead. Unelemental creatures cannot approach within 20 ft. of the wearer of this ring. If the wearer desires, he can forego this protection and instead attemt to charm or dominate the unelemental.
Creatures from the plane to which the ring is attuned who attack the wearer take a -4 penalty on their attack rolls. The ring wearer makes applicable saving throws from the extraplanar creature’s attacks with a +4 resistance bonus. He gains a +8 morale bonus on all attack rolls against such creatures. Any weapon he uses bypasses the damage reduction of such creatures, regardless of any qualities the weapon may or may not have, and is not destroyed by contact with creatures with the Entropic Mastery extraordinary ability.
The wearer of the ring is able to converse with unelemental creatures through silence. These creatures recognize that he wears the ring. They show a healthy respect for the wearer if alignments are similar. If alignments are opposed, creatures fear the wearer if he is strong. If he is weak, they hate and desire to slay him.
The possessor of a ring of epic elemental command takes a -4 saving throw penalty against spells and effects involving the elements (acid, cold, electricity, fire). 
In addition to the powers described above, the ring gives its wearer the following abilities:
•deeper darkness, disintegrate, greater dispel magic (unlimited use)
•death ward, entropic shield (unlimited use, wearer only)
•destruction, scintillating pattern, waves of exhaustion (3/day)
The ring of unelemental command can eradicate rings of elemental command with a touch and constantly urges the wielder to seek them out for destruction, though this has no game mechanical effect.
Overwhelming conjuration; Caster Level: 41st; Prerequisites: Forge Epic Ring, summon monster VI, all appropriate spells; Market Price: ? gp; Cost to Create: ?


----------



## Cheiromancer

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Seventh Sense (Ex): A cometary dragon’s senses extend one round into the future; it can't be caught flat-footed or surprised and gains its dexterity bonus against foes it can't perceive. Because this ability creates paradoxes that must be resolved, the dragon is not affected by any effect or attack until one round after they are exposed to it; they can use this grace period to pre-emptively heal any damage it may cause or activate defenses against it, such as a Death Ward to counter a death effect.




I like this formulation.  The two options are exhaustive, right?  They can't teleport away to avoid the attack all together, or destroy the origin of an attack, or something of the sort.  Pre-emptive healing and/or the activation of defenses is the only thing they can do.  Right?


----------



## Pssthpok

> Beaten! Great minds think alike, Pssthpok.




Too true, friend!



> This 'ring' is and is not; it has no physical or incorporeal existence and cannot be damaged by normal means, and can only be perceived as a fading opaque black band through the use of True Seeing, Analyze Dweomer, and similar magic. Anyone who can perceive the ring can manipulate it to place it upon their person, though it is weightless and frictionless until worn, whereupon it becomes as weighty as lead.




Oh, I like this bit a lot.


----------



## historian

I think those are cool suggestions.

There is another ability I have in mind that I like:

_If the wearer slays any being of divine stature while wearing the Ring of Unelemental Command, an unelemental (with the same number of hit dice as the slain deity) forms within 1d6+1 days and is bound to the will of the wearer until destroyed or until the ring is removed from the wearer's control._ 

This could lead to some interesting epic campaigns IMO.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I like this formulation.  The two options are exhaustive, right?  They can't teleport away to avoid the attack all together, or destroy the origin of an attack, or something of the sort.  Pre-emptive healing and/or the activation of defenses is the only thing they can do.  Right?




Teleporting away before the attack hits strikes me as a very legitimate effect, but it's probably best to leave it exhaustive as you say.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*hey all!*

U-k what's up with Kabiri? too powerful for ECL43? 
it's true his AC is high , but he 's not invincible ,I think is tough like a Demon Prince must be!
Thanks for Corellon Preview , but for me Corellon is a wizard not a sorcerer , but it's not very important  

Some questions about the  bestiary , would you publish a online errata on your website for those who buy the pdf version?
With accurate(lol) Nexus challenge ratings???^^
I'm doing a new campaign with a extrapowerful  Hiatus artifact , maybe A Cosmic Powerful non sentient living   , was thinking about a High Lord lol , i Have made my own table !
Some questions like always: What's the Gauntlet of Ghost??  
Could you make a flavor text for Xiphoid? Alabaster is seeking for this extrapowerfulblade.
thank you very much in advance , keep working


----------



## Rockhoward56

*errata*

Kabiri is Cr 43 not ECL 43 , excuse me


----------



## dante58701

There is one important thing to note regarding errata....virtual size categories in general...double check all the statistical modifiers. It seems to be the only major problem in the epic bestiary. You may even want to note them so players can figure out which creatures have them. While it's easy for me to figure it all ouut, not everyone is a math whiz.


----------



## CRGreathouse

dante58701 said:
			
		

> While it's easy for me to figure it all ouut, not everyone is a math whiz.




Out of sheer curiosity, are you?


----------



## dante58701

Me? I? Oh, nothing more than a larcenistic fool of a man who is fan of a great epic or two.
Same as many out there I spose, but it is quite true really...his only real mistake with the bestiary was neglecting the virtual size notations for the simple people. Not so much a mistake as a minor oversight now that I think of it. But otherwise...he really has done marvelous work. Id have to say that I have never seen such grandeur in any epic product. He takes the best of the best...adds a lot of his own splendid ideas and...viola...the perfect epic product. So...the least I can do for him, for providing me with such memorable gaming, would be to point out anything he might want to fix. but only because he asked.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Pity that, then.  I just know that we do have a few math people on this thread -- -Eä- and myself, at the least, as well as a few others.  (I'm so bad with names,  .)


----------



## dante58701

I like math people, Im a math people. Math people rule!!! We need more of them.


----------



## Rhuarc

Hey UK,

hope you doing well so far. I have two questions about the cosmic spells you are going to introduce later, maybe you could help me 

Will there be a difference between scaling the spells as with the feats? Like Divine spells, cosmic spells, transcendental spells and so on?
And will feats and spells of the same category be roughly equal powerful?

Before epic, spells are much more powerful to compensate for the class abilities of the non-caster classes, but I guess this will be redunant at cosmic levels cause there won't be any class abilities which scale to this point. The only difference between characters of that level will be the feats, right?

Well, hope you get my point


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*Question for Upper_Krust*

Is July 21 the release date for the beta version or the full version?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

I'll address the Ring of Unelemental Command stuff tomorrow, thanks for all the help. 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hey UK,




Hey Rhuarc dude! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> hope you doing well so far. I have two questions about the cosmic spells you are going to introduce later, maybe you could help me




If I can't - no one can!   



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Will there be a difference between scaling the spells as with the feats? Like Divine spells, cosmic spells, transcendental spells and so on?




No. It'll be scaled via spell level.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> And will feats and spells of the same category be roughly equal powerful?




Too complicated an issue to address, depends how much you invest into powering the spell.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Before epic, spells are much more powerful to compensate for the class abilities of the non-caster classes, but I guess this will be redunant at cosmic levels cause there won't be any class abilities which scale to this point. The only difference between characters of that level will be the feats, right?
> 
> Well, hope you get my point




I'm not sure I fully understand this point, but I'll waffle on for a bit on what I think you are asking...   

Personally I don't like the idea that epic spells can be cast by anyone, however, at the same time I understand that the difference between Cleric and Wizard is lessened the higher you ascend.

I would prefer it if Wizards could cast Cleric spells* (at a suitably lower level than Clerics naturally) and vice versa.

*Perhaps 2-3 spell levels lower (or maybe even 1/2 spell level).

However, 2-3 spell levels lower is only 2-3 Automatic Metamagic Capacity feats at epic levels. So perhaps the 1/2 spell level idea is better.

That way a Mystic Theurge type character could be created that cast all spells at 3/4 spell level.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Servitor matey! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Is July 21 the release date for the beta version or the full version?




Thats for the beta release, I can't magic these illustrations out of thin air unfortunately.

Sorry.


----------



## Rhuarc

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I'm not sure I fully understand this point, but I'll waffle on for a bit on what I think you are asking...




Not really what I was hoping for but I guess it was poorly phrased by me.

Let me ask this way:

The difference of characters at power levels equal to First Ones, Old Ones etc will be mainly the number and selection of their feats, right (besides items)?
I mean if one character is a fighter level 100 and the other one fighter level 110, the class abilities and few HD/BAB/Saves won't make any difference...but if the higher level character has some cosmic feats more than the other, it will make a huge difference I suppose.

Sorry for bothering with maybe silly questions and thanks for your help


----------



## Eversius

Hey, UK.

I've been wondering, ever since you mentioned/created the Umbrals/Qlippoth... What would be the Sephiroth? Time Lords?


----------



## Zoatebix

*speaking of maths*

I'm really suprised CRGreathouse didn't show up in this thread a while back: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=150760


----------



## Alzrius

Well, the official list of ENnies nominations are out...and the judges all seem to have an Intelligence of 3, because the _Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary vol. 1_ isn't nominated. It didn't even get an honorable mention!   

Condolences to U_K, who definately deserves an award for his work, and let's all look forward to ENnies for the print _Bestiary_ and _IH: Ascenion_ in 2007!


----------



## historian

> Condolences to U_K, who definately deserves an award for his work, and let's all look forward to ENnies for the print Bestiary and IH: Ascenion in 2007!




Indeed!  

The IH Bestiary is my favorite d20 product to date and I'm anticipating Ascension being my favorite rpg product of all time.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Not really what I was hoping for but I guess it was poorly phrased by me.
> 
> Let me ask this way:
> 
> The difference of characters at power levels equal to First Ones, Old Ones etc will be mainly the number and selection of their feats, right (besides items)?




Feats/Divine abilities/Cosmic Abilities etc.

Portfolio Templates.

Artifacts.

I think those will be the main differences.

Although looking at the difference between Surtur and Algol, they are not really anything alike physically to begin with. So I guess 'base creature' should also be a factor.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> I mean if one character is a fighter level 100 and the other one fighter level 110, the class abilities and few HD/BAB/Saves won't make any difference...but if the higher level character has some cosmic feats more than the other, it will make a huge difference I suppose.




You won't get anymore Cosmic Abilities by going up a mere 10 Levels. 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Sorry for bothering with maybe silly questions and thanks for your help




Questions are my specialty, finishing books to a schedule isn't.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Eversius said:
			
		

> Hey, UK.




Hey Eversius mate! 



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> I've been wondering, ever since you mentioned/created the Umbrals/Qlippoth... What would be the Sephiroth? Time Lords?




I have a few ideas for 'Sephiroth' but nothing I have settled on at this moment. I am sure they will feature at some point.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Well, the official list of ENnies nominations are out...and the judges all seem to have an Intelligence of 3, because the _Immortal's Handbook Epic Bestiary vol. 1_ isn't nominated. It didn't even get an honorable mention!




I guess it would be more apropos to say they were certainly not Epic Level Judges.  

Although I wonder are any of those Monster Books nominated pdf only?



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Condolences to U_K, who definately deserves an award for his work, and let's all look forward to ENnies for the print _Bestiary_ and _IH: Ascenion_ in 2007!




Thats okay mate, all good things come to those who wait.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
I hope things are going well.
I hate to be a pest, but do you think the July 21 date is a solid one? I may be starting a game soon, and the more epic material, the better. (The game wont hit epic for many sessions, but the more time I have to read ahead, the less I have to bend my plot to put in the good stuff.) I am really interested in your 5th, 6th, and 7th elements. (Though players may confuse your Atma energy with psyonic power points.) Interesting element names, Mana I obviously recognize, but the others I might just go research their meanings. 
Also, are these nebulous (since I know nothing about the system) points used to fuel the divine abilities, or are they tied to some other mechanic? (Such as spend x power points to use the Divine Blast power) 
As always the flavor you interweave in the rules set are as interesting as the rules themselves. If Chronicle comes out in my lifetime  I shall enjoy it greatly.
As always, I hope Ascension is finished soon with as little hassle as possible.


----------



## Rhuarc

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Feats/Divine abilities/Cosmic Abilities etc.




Ah, that's an interesting one! 

Will you be able to choose Divine/Comsic abilites or do you get specific ones at each "evolution" point?
And is there a chance to get those without reaching a new rank of power (e.g. from Old One to First One) or are they only available at each new rank?
I guess they will be more powerful than feats?

Just asking to have something to think about till the work is done, but nothing important. 
So please take your time and answer me if you find the time and are in the mood to do so 

Already thanks very much mate ^^


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I hope things are going well.




Not bad, although the photoshopping of the Bestiary cover in the higher resolution is taking longer than I anticipated (its probably taking as long as it did the last time, only I just can't remember).  :\ 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I hate to be a pest, but do you think the July 21 date is a solid one?




Thats the $64,000 question isn't it. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I may be starting a game soon, and the more epic material, the better. (The game wont hit epic for many sessions, but the more time I have to read ahead, the less I have to bend my plot to put in the good stuff.)




I'll try my best.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I am really interested in your 5th, 6th, and 7th elements. (Though players may confuse your Atma energy with psyonic power points.) Interesting element names, Mana I obviously recognize, but the others I might just go research their meanings.




Like most occult stuff I am sure there is more than one incarnation of what Atma really is.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also, are these nebulous (since I know nothing about the system) points used to fuel the divine abilities, or are they tied to some other mechanic? (Such as spend x power points to use the Divine Blast power)




Not exactly, think of Quintessence more as a sort of Divine Experience Points. However, there are a number of things it is good for beyond merely equating divine rank. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> As always the flavor you interweave in the rules set are as interesting as the rules themselves. If Chronicle comes out in my lifetime  I shall enjoy it greatly.




As long as you're not posting from Death Row you should see it in due course.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> As always, I hope Ascension is finished soon with as little hassle as possible.




Well we can certainly hope.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Rhuarc dude! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Ah, that's an interesting one!
> 
> Will you be able to choose Divine/Comsic abilites or do you get specific ones at each "evolution" point?




Both. Some are standard to the divinity/portfolio templates, but you also get some free slots to do with as you please.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> And is there a chance to get those without reaching a new rank of power (e.g. from Old One to First One) or are they only available at each new rank?




You only gain them with each new divine status (e.g. from Old One to First One).

However, you can also gain them through multiple feat slots. Although it does take quite a few feat slots to gain cosmic abilities.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> I guess they will be more powerful than feats?




A divinie ability will be roughly equivalent to 6 epic feats. A cosmic ability will be roughly equivalent to 6* divine abilities, and so forth.

*I know in the past that was 4, not 6, but I prefer the symmetry of the sixes.

1 - 6 - 36 - 216 - 1296



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Just asking to have something to think about till the work is done, but nothing important. So please take your time and answer me if you find the time and are in the mood to do so




You caught me on a moment of whimsy.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Already thanks very much mate ^^


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Ltheb Silverfrond said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I hate to be a pest, but do you think the July 21 date is a solid one?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thats the $64,000 question isn't it.
Click to expand...


Maybe someone should threaten puppies, I think it worked the last time.   

I might do it, but my two puppies are too cute for me to put their life on the line


----------



## dante58701

Maybe Krusty could release a little bit of material? Just some teasers? Of course were being teased enough as it is...but Im not too proud to beg for snippets.


----------



## Pssthpok

If UK released a teaser every time someone asked, he'd never get anywhere. Leave the man be; let him finish up. What's more important: teasers or the Beta?

UK: godspeed, pal. You're on the home stretch.


----------



## dante58701

ummm....is that a trick question?


----------



## Pssthpok

No. It's a rhetorical question. I don't expect an answer since the answer is obvious.


----------



## Fieari

So, on the subject of puppies...


----------



## Rockhoward56

*U-k?*

  don't have any answer to my few questions......
Keep working man!


----------



## Alzrius

If I recall correctly, the Mongoose people said they wouldn't have the release of the print _Bestiary_ until September, but I wonder if they'll have any advance copies at Gen Con. That'd be pretty cool.


----------



## Anabstercorian

I was threatening puppies last time, but it didn't really do any good.

I've found that if you call him nasty names and undermine his self-image as a game designer, he'll work even harder to bolster himself.  It's not very nice, but it seems to be effective at motivating him.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Perhaps this time we have to *Sith Lord Voice* "... find new ways to motivate him."


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, the Mongoose people said they wouldn't have the release of the print _Bestiary_ until September, but I wonder if they'll have any advance copies at Gen Con. That'd be pretty cool.




Virtually no chance, given that I haven't sent them the final draft for the printers yet*. Which I'll be doing tomorrow night/Thursday morning. 

*Or rather I did, but a few things needed to be redone here and there so they sent it back for technical repair, rescanning all images at a much higher quality and so forth.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*Hmmm...*

If people are sufficiently desparate to get their hands on Ascension, I could threaten to put out my own version first. *diverts attention from the fact that he woudn't know where to begin*


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*another typo*

Looking over the Ascension ToC, under methods of gaining divinity, under The Glory, it says, "tha faith."


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Servitor matey!
> 
> 
> 
> Thats for the beta release, I can't magic these illustrations out of thin air unfortunately.
> 
> Sorry.




Isn't there some legality with putting something up for sale with a release date and not meeting that release date twice while you already have poeple's money?


----------



## Zhnov

CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Isn't there some legality with putting something up for sale with a release date and not meeting that release date twice while you already have poeple's money?




Chill, CRU. 

I think the first time I heard that the ELH was "near ready" for public consumption was some 2+ years ago.  

_I am a very patient lurker._  

If you are, in general, a person not known for extraordinary patience, then I recommend either strong drink or professional counseling (you need a coping mechanism to dwell here).  

U_K is a visionary, and a veritable one-man-band, but is not known for speed.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Zhnov said:
			
		

> Chill, CRU.
> 
> I think the first time I heard that the ELH was "near ready" for public consumption was some 2+ years ago.
> 
> _I am a very patient lurker._
> 
> If you are, in general, a person not known for extraordinary patience, then I recommend either strong drink or professional counseling (you need a coping mechanism to dwell here).
> 
> U_K is a visionary, and a veritable one-man-band, but is not known for speed.





Oh, i'm fine. I'm just asking.


----------



## GQuail

CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Isn't there some legality with putting something up for sale with a release date and not meeting that release date twice while you already have poeple's money?




I'd have to say that, in the case of Upper Krust, anyone who pays any attention to release dates he mentions is going to get their heart broken eventually.  ;-)

Still, I'd have to agree that missing multiple deadlines is a bit rough, especially when you've already taken cash for it: but considering the length of time some people have waited for this book, another week or two ain't gonna kill anyone.  And besides, I don't think going with "get whatever has been written so far" rather than "get a final version U_K is happy with" is necesarilly a better plan.  On a project this wide in scope, there's a lot to pull together, and any writer would find it taxing.

Alas, as long as one self-publishes, one runs these sort of risks.  When you're your own boss, the absence of another person cramping your artistic vision for the purposes of meeting such mundane things as deadlines can be a problem.  Did anyone here ever collect Image comics, and wait for Battle Chasers?... ;-)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there! 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Isn't there some legality with putting something up for sale with a release date and not meeting that release date twice while you already have poeple's money?




Thanks for making me feel even more guilty and panicky than I already do.   

Had it not been for those pre-orders I would not be able to afford to work on Ascension. I told people the situation before I instigated the pre-ordering.

Just be patient.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Had it not been for those pre-orders I would not be able to afford to work on Ascension. I told people the situation before I instigated the pre-ordering.




You have mentioned before that without the pre-order cash injection, the Mr Krust bank account wouldn't have been too healthy: and a bankrupted Upper_Krust would be no use to us, would he?  :>

Still, I can't blame people for getting a bit tetchy when the end finally seems in sight, but the finish line keeps creeping away from them.  Ah, the joys of creator owned products... ;-)


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Thanks for making me feel even more guilty and panicky than I already do.




LOL!

U_K I make no assumptions about your legal climate at home but, being one of America's recovering lawyers, I can assure that you haven't lived until someone has threatened you with litigation.

Seriously, I think the other poster was just busting your chops a bit.  Panic and guilt aren't necessarily the best motivators for a strong and timely finish either.

Good luck, I'll try not to bug you anymore prior to release.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Virtually no chance, given that I haven't sent them the final draft for the printers yet*. Which I'll be doing tomorrow night/Thursday morning.
> 
> *Or rather I did, but a few things needed to be redone here and there so they sent it back for technical repair, rescanning all images at a much higher quality and so forth.




A quick note on that. For the _helm of epic brilliance_ (the Elohim entry), in the second to last bullet point, you note "(See the Epic Level Handbook, pae 131)." However, you're not allowed, in the d20 License, to refer to specific page numbers. Likewise, I'm pretty sure (though not positive) that you can't refer to that book by name...maybe as "ELH," but I'm not too sure about that either.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

U_K, when you get aound to writing parts 2 and 3 of the Epic Bestiary, will you be using the new stat block format? Please say no!


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Wow, not much love for the new stat block format. 
I agree, keeping the old stat block (for monsters) seems the easiest way to do things. We are all used to it, so all the information is just as easily obtainable. 
I will say that the new stat block is good for NPCs. Everything is spelled out so novice DMs don't have to reference ability mods and feat uses. It is however useless if you threw the monster/NPC together yourself (I hope I know what the wizard I rolled up last night can do)
I think for aesthetic purpouses, the old format should be kept, simply because the first bestiary used it, and because most DMs who run Epic probobly have no problem reading monster information, so an improved format might not be the best option. (Note, I am assuming this. This is just my opinion, I could be wrong...)


----------



## poilbrun

Personnally, I like the new stat block format, but for the moment, I have only used it for low-level adventures, with lots of different monsters in the same encounter (Red Hand of Doom adventure), so it helped to have the information presented that way to make sure I would find quickly the information I needed.

However, I have to say to for epic monsters, it is probably not as necessary: while I easily managed in an adventure where I did not know all the abilities of 3rd-level hobgoblin warriors and their 4th-level hobgolin sergeant, I usually prepare my adventures much better with higher level baddies with unique abilities.


----------



## Fieari

The new statblock format works quite well for high level NPCs, and prefer it to all other formats... well, as long as you make 1 or 2 minor adjustments, like including the full details for HP and AC... a level adjustment entry might be nice too.  And a couple other entries would be useful, such as for miss chance, regen, that sort of thing.  But the cool thing about this statblock is that due to how it's organized, it's VERY obvious where such information should be placed!

Check out my version of The Angel of Death on the wiki.  The Auras are important, as they're the first thing the PCs will encounter, and as such are right at the top.  In the standard entry, these would be lumped in, _in alphabetical order, not logical order_, in the "Special Qualities" section, along with regen, immunities, resistances, SR, DR, and all the other features, making them hard to pick out.  Up with the auras are all the information you need to know BEFORE a battle starts.

Then there's all the defensive information; AC, HP, Miss Chance, DR, Regen, Immunities, Resistances, Saves, Weaknesses... all in one place, not lumped into "SQ" like all the other formats do.  Note how many special qualities this thing would have... an organizational NIGHTMARE!

Then theres the attack information, including "Attack Options", which highlights the feats that might otherwise be overlooked.  When you have more than 30 feats, picking out that it can power attack or combat expertise would be tricky, and all too easy to miss while running the monster.  The sneak attack is seperated from the "Special Qualities" and put next to the other attack info where it belongs.  To save space, the "Single Attack" entry is gone; and who really needs it anyway?  Just take the first attack from the full attack line!

Only then, after the IMPORTANT info is out of the way, is all the other stuff described.  For -full- information, this would probably be a nice place to put the stuff that the official form of the statblock leaves out, like LA and Treasure.


I -love- the new statblock format, and can't imagine trying to run high level characters without it.  There's simply so much information!  If it wasn't organized, how could you expect to find ANYTHING in the heat of the moment?


----------



## dante58701

I hate the new stat-block formation...it simultaneously overcomplicates and oversimplifies things. It scatters skills all over the place, it leaves out abilities that should be listed. And it just looks really sloppy. Ive personally come to the conclusion that Im not going to buy too many products that use it.


As for death...you did some excellent work there but you neglected a few of the Akalich abilities that would make it far more potent. Like it's negative energy touch. I think it would be better served by using no weapons at all, exept vs. creatures immune to negative energy. It's speed is also wrong. It's a deity so it should be higher than the base "nondivine" akalich.

I loved the scythes...they reminded me of a certain castlevania game.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Regarding the new stats block, I won't be using it, primarily on the basis that I don't use it in the first Bestiary and I want to retain the same format for all three Volumes (notably so in case there is an eventual hardcover Bestiary - with all three volumes in the one book).

The new stat block looks clean, but in this case cleanliness is not next to godliness. 

Okay, I have pretty much finished all the changes to the Bestiary for the print version (I'll be uploading it first thing tomorrow morning).

One of the problems I just noticed with including the Ring of Unelemental Command is that I don't seem to have enough room on the credits/contents page to add in the names of all those concerned.

However, I can always add it to the grimoire instead and give people the appropriate credit. So your efforts will not be in vain!


----------



## dante58701

Thank the gods you won't be using it. The old format has splendid detail and when dealing with epic...details are highly important. I see them as being far more than mere flavor text.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

I've been a lurker on these threads, but I recently purchased the Epic Bestiary .pdf.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Thank the gods you won't be using it. The old format has splendid detail and when dealing with epic...details are highly important. I see them as being far more than mere flavor text.



I think it is unfortunate that the new format is not going to be used.  I have judged countless convention tables and the new stat blocks have been a godsend.  Having a table of players sit around waiting for me to seek out some lost "splendid detail" is not fun at all.  I am much more likely to use all of the abilities of a creature with the new format because I am much less likely to miss them.  More than likely what happens for a DM is to simply never use those designed details at all because they can't be located quickly.  Suddenly the encounter is less than a challenge because the monster is being run less than effectively.  The CR ends up being inaccurate because those nice details are never found by the average DM.  And I'd think that of all the beasts it is an Epic beast with critical details that must not be missed, one would want to present them in a fashion the average DM could locate as easily as possible lest the ability not be used at all...

The new stat block has been evolving, some of the criticised "missing details" are now included (such as AC break down is now added in the MM4).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I've been a lurker on these threads, but I recently purchased the Epic Bestiary .pdf.




Hey Eric...and thanks! 



			
				Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I think it is unfortunate that the new format is not going to be used.  I have judged countless convention tables and the new stat blocks have been a godsend.  Having a table of players sit around waiting for me to seek out some lost "splendid detail" is not fun at all.  I am much more likely to use all of the abilities of a creature with the new format because I am much less likely to miss them.  More than likely what happens for a DM is to simply never use those designed details at all because they can't be located quickly.  Suddenly the encounter is less than a challenge because the monster is being run less than effectively.  The CR ends up being inaccurate because those nice details are never found by the average DM.  And I'd think that of all the beasts it is an Epic beast with critical details that must not be missed, one would want to present them in a fashion the average DM could locate as easily as possible lest the ability not be used at all...
> 
> The new stat block has been evolving, some of the criticised "missing details" are now included (such as AC break down is now added in the MM4).




I can see your point, although I would like to think listing monster tactics goes some way to addressing 'how to utilise it to its full potential'.

I presume MM4 has tactics for every monster?


----------



## dante58701

And the debate rages on


----------



## dante58701

I agree with Krusty...he more than adequately details these creatures for the "Average" DM...not there is such a thing. As for not having details prepared beforehand...thats just bad DMing. Every DM worth his salt knows that he must PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE. For if he doesn't the game falls apart, people wander off bored, and others just get annoyed. Ive had over 30 different DM's and the best ones planned ahead at least a week...gamed for 6hours straight once a week...and in general studied all the flavor text to better detail the monsters. HAck'n'Slash DMs are the current average DM...but Hack'n'Slash is boring. It's spose to be a bout "ROLEPLAYING". This isn't MAGIC CARDS or some similar game where only stat blocks matter. Ive DM'd for over 12 years. My worst campaigns were all stat and no flavor. My best ones had flavor. The players really got into it when they had details, details, details, details. They always asked questions, wanting to know more. It was awesome. One girl cried when her elf died. It was beautiful. She worked harder the next time to make sure her next character didnt die, but we ended up having a splendid viking funeral scene (it was a dwarfs idea).

Anyway Im sidetracking, all those details...they are important. Very important. So just plan ahead and everything will work out better.

Too many people want immediate gratification. 

Your statblock is fast food...Ill take the filet minon (my stat block) anyday.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Eric...and thanks!



Ah, but thank you!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I can see your point, although I would like to think listing monster tactics goes some way to addressing 'how to utilise it to its full potential'.
> 
> I presume MM4 has tactics for every monster?



Having only skimmed through it (I'm bogged down reviewing/commenting on a pair of 100+ page projects to be [hopefully] released this fall) every monster entry I have seen in MM4 does have a *Strategy and Tactics* section. Such sections *can* be very helpful, if written well and comprehensively. *shrug*

While I respect dante58701's preference for the old statblock, I won't bother responding to his appeal to elitism.


----------



## dante58701

It's not elitism...It's consistancy. Something WOTC sorely lacks.


----------



## Rhuarc

Hey UK,

would you agree with Fieari that his Angel of Death would be essentially an intermediate deity? If yes, is the difference in CR between 130 for an intermediate deity and 194 for an Old One (Galactus) not a bit small?
Thought the CR of intermediate deities would be below the 100 mark, but was only an assumption ^^


----------



## poilbrun

dante58701 said:
			
		

> I agree with Krusty...he more than adequately details these creatures for the "Average" DM...not there is such a thing. As for not having details prepared beforehand...thats just bad DMing. Every DM worth his salt knows that he must PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE, PREPARE. For if he doesn't the game falls apart, people wander off bored, and others just get annoyed. Ive had over 30 different DM's and the best ones planned ahead at least a week...gamed for 6hours straight once a week...and in general studied all the flavor text to better detail the monsters. HAck'n'Slash DMs are the current average DM...but Hack'n'Slash is boring. It's spose to be a bout "ROLEPLAYING". This isn't MAGIC CARDS or some similar game where only stat blocks matter. Ive DM'd for over 12 years. My worst campaigns were all stat and no flavor. My best ones had flavor. The players really got into it when they had details, details, details, details. They always asked questions, wanting to know more. It was awesome. One girl cried when her elf died. It was beautiful. She worked harder the next time to make sure her next character didnt die, but we ended up having a splendid viking funeral scene (it was a dwarfs idea).
> 
> Anyway Im sidetracking, all those details...they are important. Very important. So just plan ahead and everything will work out better.
> 
> Too many people want immediate gratification.



Immediate gratification can be good fun. I DMed my first 3e campaign a very short time after the three core books were released; armed only with my 2e Dragonlance box. The "campaign", if I can call it that, lasted 55 hours over 3 days with 2 players. Basically, it was a slugfest between the characters (a red robe wizard and a two-weapon-wielding minotaur) and the Monster Manual. The story was pretty basic (I think I used the old "artifact divided in several parts all over the continent" trick to lead the characters from one place to the next) and I had no preparation at all. I either made up NPC on the fly or used those I knew from the books, but the campaign could have taken place in the Forgotten Realms or Eberron (except that didn't exist yet) and it would not have changed. The characters ended up around level 33-34 IIRC and we extrapolated rules for characters over level 20 (BAB +33 for the Minotaur, tons of spells for the wizard but none higher than 9th level and no epic spellcasting of course   ).

Even though the campaigns I have DMed since were much more gratifying both for the players and for me, this is still one of the campaign they talk the most about. I realize that to most people this would not find this campaign fun at all, but we had a great time... tough some of it might be due to the fact that we were quite tired at the end of the 3-day marathon


----------



## Kavon

dante58701 said:
			
		

> It's not elitism...It's consistancy. Something WOTC sorely lacks.



Consistency as in making the game for a certain kind of DM/player, that _you_ deem the _right way_? Sounds a bit like elitism to me.

WotC is certainly inconsistent, with TSR before them. If they were absolutely 'consistent', like, why make new ways if the old ways still works? We'd still be playing OD&D...

Not to say I've been keeping up all that much. I don't know if WotC makes (new) products that still use an older MM way, and others using a newer way of doing things, but I somehow doubt that.
Progress can be bad, but it can also be good. Preferences will always differ, but in the end they have to make their products, and it's not bad to be innovative.

They made a new way of doing things, so what? Someone prefers it one way or another, so what?

The new way looks clear enough, though I don't know if I prefer either, since I really don't mind as long as it makes the point the creature is supposed to make. It's not like I continuously look in my MM when the players are in a battle, not even if I'm making the entire thing up as I go.

But yeah, now that I've said I don't mind either way, I prefer U_K to be consistent within his work _on the Bestiary_, like he said he would.
If there even will be another product that would have stat blocks as such, I'm sure U_K can decide then if he wants to be consistent with all his work (might be good, might be bad, who's to say), or if he might choose to do it in a different way, that might be better for that particular work.


Oh, on another note, about the preparations a DM has to make, one thing: There's nothing so unpredictible as a player (at least.. my players). If you want to prepare for everything that could happen, you'd really have to be godlike to do all the variables within a week's time, and still.. have a life besides DMing.



*blinks*

Hmm.. I actually made a long reply again 

Oh, U_K, what would you guess the % of completion would be for the book at this point? I think it's a better question than asking you when you think you'll be done


----------



## GQuail

Kavon said:
			
		

> Oh, U_K, what would you guess the % of completion would be for the book at this point? I think it's a better question than asking you when you think you'll be done




At the very least, an idea of if it's days, weeks or months more to wait would be nice.  

On the topic of the stat block format, I quite like the new one: especially at higher lkevels, where the subdivision of abilities makes it easier for me to run encounters.  I've yet to play an Epic game using it, but I can see it's advantages there.  Still, I think that keeping one format throughout the whole project is probably for the best.  The time it would take to reformat previously done blocks to use the new format woul arguably be better spent getting new product out the door.  ;-)

(Also, wasn't there some hoo-hah abotu whether or not the new stat block could be used at all, since it's not OGL and might be construed in a roundabout way as "product identity"?  I certianly remember WotC board posts being referenced here which mentioned that back when DMGII came out)


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

GQuail said:
			
		

> The time it would take to reformat previously done blocks to use the new format woul arguably be better spent getting new product out the door.  ;-)



Absolutely true.  I don't know if the OGC question was ever answered officially by WotC.  Maybe it was, I just haven't seen it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hey UK,




Hey there! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> would you agree with Fieari that his Angel of Death would be essentially an intermediate deity?




CR 130 would be more akin to a powerful greater deity. 

However I know that I have reduced most of the CRs in the Bestiary, so hes probably compiling CR 130 with an old build, also I am not convinced his items are up to scratch for something of that magnitude.

CR 130, weapons +46 (+23 enchantment/+23 abilities), armour/items +65 (+33/+32).



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> If yes, is the difference in CR between 130 for an intermediate deity and 194 for an Old One (Galactus) not a bit small?




Galactus should have a CR 240 with full equipment.

Galactus CR is low because he doesn't benefit from full equipment - also his Armour is too powerful, I should go and correct that. It should be +180 total bonuses (+90 full platemail with an extra +90 worth of special abilities).[/QUOTE]



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Thought the CR of intermediate deities would be below the 100 mark, but was only an assumption ^^




Intermediate Deity averages about CR 85.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Kavon said:
			
		

> Oh, U_K, what would you guess the % of completion would be for the book at this point? I think it's a better question than asking you when you think you'll be done




Unfortunately most of this week has been spent working on the Bestiary changes for the printers. However, thats done now.

I should have the text for Chapter 2 finalised tomorrow (consider this a heads up Alzrius), Chapter 1 should be finalised by Monday. Chapter 4 should be finished by the following Friday.

So by the time of the deadline I'll probably only have Chapters 1, 2 and 4 finished.

Chapter 3 will require an extra 5-6 days beyond that. I would have had the first four chapters finished for the deadline but for the Bestiary Print Version Revisions that required my attention.

Once I have the first 4 chapters finished I will make them available to download on ENWorld to everyone who has bought it.

Consider that Ascension v0.8.

0.9 will have all the text in the appendix as well (I may have a few entries finished by 0.8 as well, but not the bulk of them).

1.0 will have the art (0.8 and 0.9 may have a number of illustrations but not them all).

So its looking like: 

0.8 - end of July.
0.9 - week later.
1.0 - a few weeks later (probably the end of August if I am being honest).


----------



## Fieari

Are you still planning on sending out earlier playtest copies?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I should have the text for Chapter 2 finalised tomorrow (consider this a heads up Alzrius)




Roger that. It may take me a day or two to get back to you, as my new job has me working weekends, but I'll make this my top priority.


----------



## Rhuarc

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Intermediate Deity averages about CR 85.




Thanks a lot mate, that was this time exactely what I hoped for


----------



## dante58701

Amidah Akalich Malakim...my latest character. Gives me chills.


----------



## dante58701

How do maskim see without eyes? They dont have blindsight listed. And how do they have dark vision without eyes? Are they just able to see without them?


----------



## Alzrius

dante58701 said:
			
		

> How do maskim see without eyes? They dont have blindsight listed. And how do they have dark vision without eyes? Are they just able to see without them?




When you consider that skeletons and stone golems et al are able to see, and have darkvision, without physical eyeballs, I don't think the maskim entry has a problem.


----------



## dante58701

Im just curious about how they do it. You are right though, I figured it was something akin to that. It's another mystery of the maskim. I like it.

Here's his staff.

The Staff of Ultimate Evil (Major Artifact)

The soul gem he keeps with him has been placed within the end of a jet-black six-sided orichalcum staff that has been engraved with countless permanent symbols of death, insanity, and pain. The head of the staff has been fashioned into the shape of a half-drow/half-human skull with six faces, one face for each axis. One would scarcely realize they were there were it not for the fact that it is through the eye sockets of these skull faces that the soul gem is visible. The soul gem is partially visible, in it's encasing staff, on all six axes. This allows it to be utilized and allows the light to shine through it, without hindrance. A column of jet-black orichalcum forms the core of the staff and travels through the entire length of the staff and the soul gem, anchoring them together. Fused throughout the staff by potent magicks, this core cannot be removed, and resultantly, neither can the soul gem. No creature other than Azrael can wield this staff, all others find it to be useless, assuming they aren't destroyed by it.

Powers of the Staff:The Staff of Ultimate Evil is a +60 brutal, everdancing, ghost touch, unholy scion, keen, unerring, vile, wounding orichalcum quarterstaff of speed. Any creature struck by the staff, or foolishly touching it, suffers the effects of 3d6 symbols of death, 3d6 symbols of insanity, and 3d6 symbols of pain. Azrael is unaffected by these symbols. The staff seems to be weightless until it strikes, upon which the full brunt of it's oppressive weight can be felt by the target only. The wielder of this staff cannot be physically injured unless he has not commited a sin, or  hostile action, that day. The staff contains one of his soul gems, allowing him access to his akalich abilities that are reliant upon a soul gem. Azrael can call this staff to his hand as a free action, regardless of barriers, circumstances, and/or conditions, nothing can prevent this. Should Azrael be destroyed, the staff may be claimed only by his chosen successor, but only until Azrael is somehow revived. Once Azrael is revived, his staff returns to him, allowing no other to wield it.


----------



## dante58701

It's not intelligent yet, but that will be next. I wonder how many countless souls it would take to make it sentient. This staff is very important to him, for many reasons.


----------



## historian

As to the Maskim I would go with basically what Alzrius said.  Outsiders, Fey, undead and constructs don't have natural physiognomies and therefore do not rely on biological processes to sense the world around them (among other things).

From this one could argue that Outsiders should be immune to critical hits and death from massive damage but I'm a bit torn on the issue.

Incidentally I was playing around with a Maskim vs. Demogorgon (from U_K's website) last night.  The Maskim's death attacks have interesting implications when going against Outsiders with regeneration.  For example, it "vorped" one of Demogorgon's heads but I felt it would be inappropriate for that blow to have decided the contest (it was very cool in a cinematic sort of way though).  By contrast, that likely would have ended the fight against any other two-headed creature with a natural physiognomy irrespective of whether it had two heads (assuming the blow bypassed damage reduction and regeneration).

The Maskim won, barely, but not before being badly level drained.  Demogorgon would have sealed the contest in round 2 if "he" had won initiative.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Are you still planning on sending out earlier playtest copies?




Yes, consider 0.8 and onwards playtest material. 0.9 will hopefully have all the spotted errata feedback from 0.8 (or at least some of it). The few weeks between 0.9 and 1.0 should give the playtesters time enough to spot any discrepancies in the power of the abilities (which I think is going to be the hardest part to adjudicate for me because I am so close to the work).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Roger that. It may take me a day or two to get back to you, as my new job has me working weekends, but I'll make this my top priority.




No need to be too gung ho - though I appreciate the enthusiasm. 

But because I am dragging my heels (as per usual) we do have a bit of leeway.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im just curious about how they do it. You are right though, I figured it was something akin to that. It's another mystery of the maskim. I like it.




I actually thought I gave them Blindsight. I'll add that to the print version. 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Here's his staff.
> 
> The Staff of Ultimate Evil (Major Artifact)
> 
> The soul gem he keeps with him has been placed within the end of a jet-black six-sided orichalcum staff that has been engraved with countless permanent symbols of death, insanity, and pain. The head of the staff has been fashioned into the shape of a half-drow/half-human skull with six faces, one face for each axis. One would scarcely realize they were there were it not for the fact that it is through the eye sockets of these skull faces that the soul gem is visible. The soul gem is partially visible, in it's encasing staff, on all six axes. This allows it to be utilized and allows the light to shine through it, without hindrance. A column of jet-black orichalcum forms the core of the staff and travels through the entire length of the staff and the soul gem, anchoring them together. Fused throughout the staff by potent magicks, this core cannot be removed, and resultantly, neither can the soul gem. No creature other than Azrael can wield this staff, all others find it to be useless, assuming they aren't destroyed by it.
> 
> Powers of the Staff:The Staff of Ultimate Evil is a +60 brutal, everdancing, ghost touch, unholy scion, keen, unerring, vile, wounding orichalcum quarterstaff of speed. Any creature struck by the staff, or foolishly touching it, suffers the effects of 3d6 symbols of death, 3d6 symbols of insanity, and 3d6 symbols of pain.




I'm just wondering, it might be better to instead increase the effect of those spells tenfold rather than have 3d6 of each. You are just give the player/DM too many things to roll for each hit.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Azrael is unaffected by these symbols. The staff seems to be weightless until it strikes, upon which the full brunt of it's oppressive weight can be felt by the target only. The wielder of this staff cannot be physically injured unless he has not commited a sin, or  hostile action, that day. The staff contains one of his soul gems, allowing him access to his akalich abilities that are reliant upon a soul gem. Azrael can call this staff to his hand as a free action, regardless of barriers, circumstances, and/or conditions, nothing can prevent this. Should Azrael be destroyed, the staff may be claimed only by his chosen successor, but only until Azrael is somehow revived. Once Azrael is revived, his staff returns to him, allowing no other to wield it.




Whats the benefit of having one of his soul gems in the staff? It sounds cool, I am just not suer what practical benefit it has. Of course its 1am here so I could just be missing the obvious.

By the way (on an unrelated note) I saw Pirates of the Caribbean 2 tonight and it was very entertaining. I'm just hankering for a D&D game featuring a Kraken right about now.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> No need to be too gung ho - though I appreciate the enthusiasm.




Well I didn't mean I'd make it a higher priority than my job.   

I did figure that it'd be best to start right away though, considering that my usual style is to send errata in waves every so often (I'll try not to do that this time around).


----------



## dante58701

the multiple symbol effects are my responsibility as the player to keep track of. I roll to see how many times the victim saves. Then  they roll their saves. Most creatures by epic level are immune to the symbol spells due to their hit dice or saving throw modifiers. As for the soul gem...it allows him to use his akalich abilities to their fullest. His other soul gems are hidden in living vaults.

Krusty...that blindsight thing....how many feet...or is it 8 miles..based on their divine rank?


----------



## dante58701

Another soul gem note...Im hoping that when he acquires levels in psion the DM lets me make it my psicrystal. The connection between Azrael and the soul gem is already growing...but it hasnt been defined yet.  The other soul gems just function as normal soul gems. But he never has them on him, too risky. Azrael is paranoid. Given that he opposes the other maskim and heaven...he has to be paranoid to survive.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey historian matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Incidentally I was playing around with a Maskim vs. Demogorgon (from U_K's website) last night.  The Maskim's death attacks have interesting implications when going against Outsiders with regeneration.  For example, it "vorped" one of Demogorgon's heads but I felt it would be inappropriate for that blow to have decided the contest (it was very cool in a cinematic sort of way though).  By contrast, that likely would have ended the fight against any other two-headed creature with a natural physiognomy irrespective of whether it had two heads (assuming the blow bypassed damage reduction and regeneration).
> 
> The Maskim won, barely, but not before being badly level drained.  Demogorgon would have sealed the contest in round 2 if "he" had won initiative.




Cool fight!   

Demogorgon would need three artifacts to counterbalance the Maskim exactly. But he's not really the artifact type Demogorgon, at least not in the conventional sense.

On his home plane I'd definately give Demogorgon the advantage though.

Incidently I think I have the Maskim at CR 55 in the Print Version.

At the moment I am not sure what the best way of dealing with the artifacts vs. no artifacts discrepancy.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again dante! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> the multiple symbol effects are my responsibility as the player to keep track of. I roll to see how many times the victim saves. Then  they roll their saves. Most creatures by epic level are immune to the symbol spells due to their hit dice or saving throw modifiers. As for the soul gem...it allows him to use his akalich abilities to their fullest. His other soul gems are hidden in living vaults.




It just seems like far, FAR too many rolls to contemplate in a melee.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Krusty...that blindsight thing....how many feet...or is it 8 miles..based on their divine rank?




600 feet.


----------



## dante58701

It is a bit much for rolling, thats why we just assume that anyone with a high enough save bonus would be immune to that. Only rarely would lower level individuals get struck by it, and even then...the damge alone would outright kill them so we just ignore it. It's reserved for the stupid who would dare touch it at low level. Kinda like the Ark of the Covenant...no touchy. Of course we have yet to have anyone be that crazy. The mere presence of Azrael is frightning enough to keep low levelers in line.


----------



## dante58701

Diddly dee dum dee doo


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Incidently I think I have the Maskim at CR 55 in the Print Version.




That seems somewhat better. While the Maskim (CR 60) and Malakim (CR 61) have similar Challenge Ratings, and bonuses to hit (at a full attack), the Malakim has a MUCH better armor class, but comparatively worse saves and spell resistance.


----------



## dante58701

Has anyone here ever used Central Castings:Heroes of Legend?

Excellent book. If you can find it. Im trying to find all versions of it.

The reason I ask is because I think maybe you could do a more up to date version of it Krusty.

For epic characters.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante dude! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> It is a bit much for rolling, thats why we just assume that anyone with a high enough save bonus would be immune to that. Only rarely would lower level individuals get struck by it, and even then...*the damge alone would outright kill them so we just ignore it.* It's reserved for the stupid who would dare touch it at low level. Kinda like the Ark of the Covenant...no touchy. Of course we have yet to have anyone be that crazy. The mere presence of Azrael is frightning enough to keep low levelers in line.




Basically its an Occam's Razor nightmare. Never overcomplicate something if you can easily avoid it.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Diddly dee dum dee doo




Heres an idea. Instead of posting jive like the above and just leaving it, why don't you edit it with the next post you are going to make, instead of creating an all new post.   



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Has anyone here ever used Central Castings:Heroes of Legend?
> 
> Excellent book. If you can find it. Im trying to find all versions of it.
> 
> The reason I ask is because I think maybe you could do a more up to date version of it Krusty.
> 
> For epic characters.




...because you think I don't have enough on my plate as it is that I should start revising someones elses material.


----------



## dante58701

Nah...I just figured , who better to reenvision an out of print series. )


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Cool fight!




 

Both the Maskim and your version of Demogorgon are fun to play around with.  Maskim are absolute murder on anything they can melee.



> Demogorgon would need three artifacts to counterbalance the Maskim exactly. But he's not really the artifact type Demogorgon, at least not in the conventional sense.
> 
> On his home plane I'd definately give Demogorgon the advantage though.




I had them going at it on neutral ground; say Gehenna maybe.  

Because of his DR and regeneration types and level and ability drain Demogorgon matches up well vs. evil beings.  I suspect he would have a much tougher time against a Malakim for instance.



> Incidently I think I have the Maskim at CR 55 in the Print Version.




My impression is that CR 55-61 is right on the money.  It's almost a function of the "Power Set" idea that you expand on in the "Theory of Superhero Relativity."

At any level but particularly so as you begin to scale upwards I've found that some things just match up better with others, a la George Foreman vs. Joe Frazier vs. Muhammad Ali.



> At the moment I am not sure what the best way of dealing with the artifacts vs. no artifacts discrepancy.




Good luck my man and, of course, don't hesitate to let me know if I can help.


----------



## historian

U_K, I enjoyed the website update.  

It would appear, at least from the scans that I've seen that all is in pretty good shape, though admittedly I haven't seen too much to point.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
The stuff you posted for the Old Ones is pretty cool. I definitly like that you put the Lady of Pain at the Old One rank, and didn't opt for what the Planescape gurus tend to say "OMG OVERPOWER! LOL" (Not trying to offend those who like the Planescape setting, but everytime the discussion of the Lady comes up that is what I see )
Though I have some questions about Algol 
You have said he is very much like a certain Cthulu Mythos Overdiety, does he also bear similar portfolios? I don't read too much Lovecraft (Hardly any... ) but a few sources say that he is a god of Radiation. Is Algol such a god? Or did you put some spin on him?
Also, his race is listed as "Psudonatural." Is he like a Zoa, a specific kind/race if Zoa, (Like a Cogent), or something else entirely?
Can't wait for Ascension. (Though, due to linear timeline constraints, I must)


----------



## historian

Ltheb, I believe Algol bears some coincidental resemblance to Azathoth:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=160446&page=4


----------



## Fieari

Interesting that the "Great Old Ones" aren't nearly powerful enough to qualify as one of _your_ Old Ones, and that only the most powerful of the Cthulian gods reach that rank.  Very cool.

Incidentally, one of the warmups for trying out Ascention is to stat out the Old Ones from Silicon Knight's "Eternal Darkness" (gamecube game)... Chattur'gha, Ulyaoth, Xel'lototh, and possibly Mantorok, so figuring out where the Great Old ones fit into the power scheme will very likely have to determine where these guys fit.  So I'm interested.

In my estimation, Lovecraft wasn't a great writer himself, but the people who were inspired by his work have come up with some fantastic things.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

I thought he had said Azathoth, but I wasn't sure. I knew it was some Lovecraft Diety. Incidentally, in the D20 CoC book, the thing that struck me as funny (this may be just Azathoth Lore in general) is that he is listed as appearing with 1-4 other Elder Gods.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Eternal Darkness was kind of a fun game. I could never survive the secound level (Aztec-ish temple?) The deities in the game strike me as powerful within their own pantheon, but somewhat equal to the power Greek Titans had. Potent in strength (Not necessarily physical), with the ability to destroy the world if released and unchecked, but not completely Omnipotent (If they were, why use minions?)
I would put them at Divine Rank ~10, possibly as High as rank 20. If U_Ks rules are the same as those in Deities and Demigods, then ~10 is fine. But If the powerscale has been tweaked (it probably has in some places) then I think as low as 5 or as High as 20. They should be nasty, but seemingly a few mortals can throw a wrench in their plans. 
I don't remember the plot of the game well, but if one of them were more powerful than the rest, throw 6 or so ranks on that one to make him one tier higher.


----------



## historian

> Incidentally, in the D20 CoC book, the thing that struck me as funny (this may be just Azathoth Lore in general) is that he is listed as appearing with 1-4 other Elder Gods.




I almost regret never having purchased that book for posterity alone but suffice it to say that I thought Chaosium's system probably better captured the feel of Lovecraft.

Lovecraft though, of course, was writing from the mortal and not the immortal perspective.  I don't suppose Dabbat needing any sanity checks before walloping Shub-Niggurath.  

I seem to recall WoTC Azathoth being DvR 20 with maybe 80 hit dice.  I suspect you would need about 6 of them* to rightly challenge what we'll see out of Ascension.

* this is only an estimate pending playtesting.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Glad you liked it historian dude! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey there matey! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The stuff you posted for the Old Ones is pretty cool. I definitly like that you put the Lady of Pain at the Old One rank, and didn't opt for what the Planescape gurus tend to say "OMG OVERPOWER! LOL" (Not trying to offend those who like the Planescape setting, but everytime the discussion of the Lady comes up that is what I see )




Yes, the Planescapers do seem a tad blinkered in some regards, notably the Lady of Pain.

Although I should clarify that sidereals are Overgods. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Though I have some questions about Algol
> You have said he is very much like a certain Cthulu Mythos Overdiety, does he also bear similar portfolios? I don't read too much Lovecraft (Hardly any... ) but a few sources say that he is a god of Radiation. Is Algol such a god? Or did you put some spin on him?




Well I am always going to put something of my 'spin' on it, but Algol is an occult monstrousity that predates Azathoth but that has a number of similar characteristics.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also, his race is listed as "Psudonatural." Is he like a Zoa, a specific kind/race if Zoa, (Like a Cogent), or something else entirely?




The term Pseudonaturals is sort of a catch all for Far Place residents. Zoas are a particular type of Pseudonatural (or 4 particular types to be exact) who are basically non-epic monsters. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Can't wait for Ascension. (Though, due to linear timeline constraints, I must)




Indeed.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Eternal Darkness was kind of a fun game. I could never survive the secound level (Aztec-ish temple?) The deities in the game strike me as powerful within their own pantheon, but somewhat equal to the power Greek Titans had. Potent in strength (Not necessarily physical), with the ability to destroy the world if released and unchecked, but not completely Omnipotent (If they were, why use minions?)
> 
> I would put them at Divine Rank ~10, possibly as High as rank 20. If U_Ks rules are the same as those in Deities and Demigods, then ~10 is fine. But If the powerscale has been tweaked (it probably has in some places) then I think as low as 5 or as High as 20. They should be nasty, but seemingly a few mortals can throw a wrench in their plans.
> 
> I don't remember the plot of the game well, but if one of them were more powerful than the rest, throw 6 or so ranks on that one to make him one tier higher.




I only remember getting to play that game once, I quite enjoyed losing my sanity in it, some neat touches.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Interesting that the "Great Old Ones" aren't nearly powerful enough to qualify as one of _your_ Old Ones, and that only the most powerful of the Cthulian gods reach that rank.  Very cool.




The key to them could be in the word *Great*. As I see it most of these creatures are Entities of a pseudonatural (or partially pseudonatural) origin.

Which means they would be, at best, *Great*er Deities. 

The Elder Gods seems self explanatory (although true Elder Gods would be imprisoned, which means any roaming about now are likely Avatars and Aspects of the Elder Gods and would be notably weaker). 

Outer Gods would seem to parallel Old Ones in some capacity.

I have all this covered in the Divine Progeny section of Chapter 2. You can work out how powerful the offspring is based on the parents. 

...and then of course there are divine abortions...but I am sure no one is interested in hearing about those.   



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Incidentally, one of the warmups for trying out Ascention is to stat out the Old Ones from Silicon Knight's "Eternal Darkness" (gamecube game)... Chattur'gha, Ulyaoth, Xel'lototh, and possibly Mantorok, so figuring out where the Great Old ones fit into the power scheme will very likely have to determine where these guys fit.  So I'm interested.
> 
> In my estimation, Lovecraft wasn't a great writer himself, but the people who were inspired by his work have come up with some fantastic things.




I wonder did any of you ever get to see the Necronomicon movie starring Damodar himself (aka Bruce Payne)?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey historian mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I almost regret never having purchased that book for posterity alone but suffice it to say that I thought Chaosium's system probably better captured the feel of Lovecraft.




D20 CoC is very good, although I have heard the original Choasism stuff handles the Great Old Ones better.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Lovecraft though, of course, was writing from the mortal and not the immortal perspective.  I don't suppose Dabbat needing any sanity checks before walloping Shub-Niggurath.




Interestingly enough Dabbat probably has a few things in common with Hellboy's Ogdru-Jyhad, I like the idea that at a certain point things just go all 'alien-y'. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I seem to recall WoTC Azathoth being DvR 20 with maybe 80 hit dice.  I suspect you would need about 6 of them* to rightly challenge what we'll see out of Ascension.
> 
> * this is only an estimate pending playtesting.




Algol will 'only' be CR 160 (201 HD), although thats due to him not actually wielding any items...the crazy fool. 

I'm still unsure if that imbalance (items/no items) should be addressed or ignored.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Algol will 'only' be CR 160 (201 HD), although thats due to him not actually wielding any items...the crazy fool.




If crazy were a dimension I would guess he would be it.



> I'm still unsure if that imbalance (items/no items) should be addressed or ignored.




This is really a tough question from both the standpoint of the flavor and the mechanics.   

One possibility is that Sidereals are SO ancient that perhaps in their slumber they've nourished themselves by consuming their artifacts?  I'm thinking of the In-Betweener in his prison with the Soul Gem as one example?

I love the flavor so far in the examples we have . . . Galactus, the Seraphim, and Cherubim.  

However, it seems distinctly likely to me that a Greater Deity flush with artifacts might get to the point of being 50/50 with even an Old One without.  

For instance, Alabaster would stand a good chance as far as I can tell in taking down a Seraphim, albeit temporarily, but only if the Seraphim doesn't benefit from the Scrolls of Divine Holy Knowledge.

Mechanically you could have an artifact table for say Sidereals whereby the Sidereal would roll randomly for an Artifact tied to its alignment.

For those Sidereals clearly not packin' they would be awarded either a unique power representing an artifact they've consumed?

Of course, all that sounds like a bunch of work that may not be worth the investment and most Sidereals likely will have an artifact (e.g. Surtur).

Algol might be in a class by himself in that he's simply too crazy to use a weapon but draws a special measure of protection from both neutral and chaotic Old Ones due to some unnameable virtue.



> Interestingly enough Dabbat probably has a few things in common with Hellboy's Ogdru-Jyhad, I like the idea that at a certain point things just go all 'alien-y'.




Cool.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
I think the answer to your previous question is neither. I think it may best be solved by noting he has no items, and his true power is less than it could be. 
The DMG lists that items that take up no item slot (Like magic tattoos or permenent divine blessings) cost twice as much to create. A DM could simply give him stat/ability bonuses or other "blessings" at half normal value. 
Example: If he could normally "own" a set of Bracers of Armor +100, I don't think it would be too unfair to say that he has hardened his carapace/skin/ectoplasm/whatever, effectively gaining a +50 armor bonus. (Though armor bonuses in this case would be somewhat inapropriate) 
The benefit is twofold - The monster/deity can gain some "oomph" as far as CR goes, and if the PCs overcome such a being, I don't have to worry about them gaining the "+onemillion sword of whozawhatzit" or the "+alot Shield of totalinvulnerabilitytodamage"
I don't think that as it appears to be printed there is any error with Algol not haveing appropriate arms for his tier, but he probobl seem to be a weakling compared with appropriate PCs.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*Yo!*

Hello U_k!
Your website update is cool ! ^^
One question: if a greater deity is a dragon for example , they gain level or virtual age category?(hit dice bonus)?


----------



## Rockhoward56

*errata*

Sorry for the big mistake , i would say " he gain level or hitdice"?
Wannnnnnnnnnnnnnttttttttt so bad "Ascension"!
good luck pal


----------



## Upper_Krust

Thanks for the ideas on the items/no items dilemma guys. I think the safest option is just to let DMs decide.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Hello U_k!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Your website update is cool ! ^^




Well the good news is that I have managed to sneak the Table back into the book (I had to add four new pages to Chapter 2 - hence the delay Alzrius) although I will have to make some changes naturally. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> One question: if a greater deity is a dragon for example , they gain level or virtual age category?(hit dice bonus)?




If a dragon became a greater deity, it would not necessarily gain any new Hit Dice. However, I do suggest a minimum of 80 Hit Dice for Greater Deities in the book.

They would though almost certainly gain Virtual Size Categories due to potential strength bonuses.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well the good news is that I have managed to sneak the Table back into the book (I had to add four new pages to Chapter 2 - hence the delay Alzrius)




I wondered what happened, though I wasn't too terribly surprised.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Man, I realy hope this book comes out the 21st....on it's second release day.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there!   



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Man, I realy hope this book comes out the 21st....on it's second release day.




Unfortunately there is no chance of that, none whatsoever.

However, whatever the next release date I give, I'll release the book on that date whatever current state of completion it is in.

I can't apologise enough for this continued delays, I know everyone wants the book, I want to get it finished, but I also want it done right.


----------



## thefnitalian

UK, 
We all know you want it done right and very full of backbone and bite and we very much appreciate this type of focus but you are right that these are continued delays. Even if you can leak some previews so that people have something to chew on and spit some feedback to you, that might expedite your endeaver. Your playtesters are like your whore-shippers, they want your might and you want their feedback, so lets exchange finally...


----------



## Eversius

Quick question, UK, about one of the Balseraph?

Is Abaddon the true, serpent form of Asmodeus that lurks in the Serpent's Coil below Nessus?


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Unfortunately there is no chance of that, none whatsoever.
> 
> *However, whatever the next release date I give, I'll release the book on that date whatever current state of completion it is in.*
> 
> I can't apologise enough for this continued delays, I know everyone wants the book, I want to get it finished, but I also want it done right.





Well, I'm dissapointed we're waiting longer still, especially with no clear end in sight: but at least we've got an assurance that our next deadline will be our last deadline.  

Whilst I know nothing about the many reasons that could have delayed this book, U_K, I do think that in general it's a better idea for self-publishers like you to sometimes just let the book go at release time rather than continue trying to make sure it's "done right".  It's an oft mentioned fact that many books, films and the like are often released "unfinished": every author always thinks one more edit or one more reshot effect would make the whole thing better.  Without the yoke of an evll boss or marketing department to tell you that, whether you've got the spell DCs perfect or not, the previews said September and that means it goes to print Friday or not at all, however, you get to make your product "perfect": but some of us would prefer "at all".  ;-)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there! 



			
				thefnitalian said:
			
		

> UK,
> We all know you want it done right and very full of backbone and bite and we very much appreciate this type of focus but you are right that these are continued delays. Even if you can leak some previews so that people have something to chew on and spit some feedback to you, that might expedite your endeaver. Your playtesters are like your whore-shippers, they want your might and you want their feedback, so lets exchange finally...




I'll be having previews as and when, but I am sort of seeing this first (potentially unfinished) release as one heck of a big preview.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Eversius mate! 



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> Quick question, UK, about one of the Balseraph?
> 
> Is Abaddon the true, serpent form of Asmodeus that lurks in the Serpent's Coil below Nessus?




In short, yes. The Asmodeus (Archduke of Hell, 49 HD Lesser God) would be an Aspect of Abaddon...which means Abaddon could have 199 Hit Dice...I do so love my numerology. 

Incidently I have a similar table for the First Ones, which, even though anyone with the Bestiary already knows who they are, also includes the names of any any potential Avatars and Aspects the First Ones have.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail mate! 

Another day in the Elemental Plane of Fire here in the UK. 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Well, I'm dissapointed we're waiting longer still, especially with no clear end in sight: but at least we've got an assurance that our next deadline will be our last deadline.




Well I haven't exactly decided when that next release date will be of course, but it won't be too long, and I'll decide within 24 hours anyway.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Whilst I know nothing about the many reasons that could have delayed this book, U_K, I do think that in general it's a better idea for self-publishers like you to sometimes just let the book go at release time rather than continue trying to make sure it's "done right".  It's an oft mentioned fact that many books, films and the like are often released "unfinished": every author always thinks one more edit or one more reshot effect would make the whole thing better.




With regards Ascension, its not a matter of having a completed text document in front of me that I am constantly reworking. Its more like having a partially finished document that I am constantly trying to finish while constantly reworking the parts I already have finished.   



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Without the yoke of an evll boss or marketing department to tell you that, whether you've got the spell DCs perfect or not, the previews said September and that means it goes to print Friday or not at all, however, you get to make your product "perfect": but some of us would prefer "at all".  ;-)




...you might have the September release confused with the Print Version of the Bestiary. Which is coming out in September.


----------



## dante58701

All hail the Krusty...Lord of all that is Epic...Master of the mighty Seraphim...Creator of all the Omniverse. Let us praise his majesty and drink from the well of Eternity.

Amen.

LOL


----------



## Pssthpok

Sycophant.

UK, when you set down the original release dates for your projects, is that when you sit down at the computer and start typing? It's what it seems like. I'm not trying to be offensive, but most of the 'work' in writing a document is the text, which can't take too much review before it's suitable for release. This leads me to believe that the _mechanics_ are the source of the friction, a point which futher leads me to believe that the system hasn't been a working whole for very long. This creates concern about the work as a whole.
Wasn't there a playtest held on this system? Are the results from that playtest affecting the work as a whole? I understand you have MGP work to do, but does it really take more than a month or two to write up just over a dozen builds?


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> I'm not trying to be offensive, but most of the 'work' in writing a document is the text, which can't take too much review before it's suitable for release.



How certain of this are you? I have worked in the book publishing industry, and I have written four adventures. In my experience, the writing text isn't *always* most of the work in *publishing*.

Frankly, while I worked at the book publisher it was stunning at how many authors held the conceited perception that the only "work" involved with *publishing* their writing was... writing. I am no longer stunned.


----------



## Pssthpok

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> How certain of this are you? I have worked in the book publishing industry, and I have written four adventures. In my experience, the writing text isn't *always* most of the work in *publishing*.
> 
> Frankly, while I worked at the book publisher it was stunning at how many authors held the conceited perception that the only "work" involved with *publishing* their writing was... writing. I am no longer stunned.




What I'm saying is that, given the delays, it appears to me that the system itself is either unfinished or unrefined or that the playtest revealed problems complicated enough to delay the release now for almost an additional month, and that's not taking into account the weeks the document was already in development. 
Now, I understand the complexity of putting in headings, handling aesthetics like fonts and layouts, but these issues don't seem large enough to create such prolonged delays. This isn't a _print_, it's a _print to PDF_ thing, so all the nuances of making a physical book are pretty much out the window here. What I see when I look at this (continuing) trend of missed deadlines is a project that doesn't have all the math figured out yet, or something that is being translated from proto-Indo-European.
I'm hoping to hear from UK on the issue specifically, but to clarify: I'm not making any accusations and I'm not expressing any impatience. I'm just starting to wonder what could possibly take so long - art, MGP work and aesthetics aside (complications I can understand) - if it's not a problem with the system itself.


----------



## dante58701

Im fine with waiting...and Im a fanatic.  Take ur time Krusty...whatever you need.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Normally companies have a _finished_ product before they _take money_. There are legalities and rules protecting consumer from fake products. 

Really, any schmo can slate he has a product and put it up for sale, take your money, and not provide anything.....or drag you along once said money has been received. As a company, i'd hope you check over all legalities for promising a product and all liabilities you will have to face for not producing. 

This is the 2nd miss deadline that has bene posted _after_ payments have been received.

You have a lawsuit on your hands if anyone of us gamers had the money to do so, instead of spending money on unseen promised products. 

As a man of honour, I hope you intend on correcting the situation. Whether it's refunding money and not taking anymore until your product is finished and ready for sale, or some type of equivilent bonus. 

Any other product and most of you would be at your local Wal-marts looking for refunds. The only reason people seem complacent with getting ripped off is from the boost of hope and faith that has been instilled within them for 5 years. _5 YEARS_. At least give us the beneift of receiving a final product when we pay for it when you say it's ready. Otherwise I don't see how anyone else isn't taking this as an insullt to their patience or loyalty.

If you plan on continuing business in that fashion with your products, get yourself a lawyer.


----------



## dante58701

I disagree...he will get it done. It isn't so much a matter of faith as it is a reality. Krusty has been true to his word for years. And he stated previously in this thread that no "DEADLINE" is truly set. So his guestimations are just that...guesses. Mere shots in the dark aimed at giving consumers a rough...VERY rough estimate for a release date. Not once have I ever seen Krusty post an absolute on any deadline. In fact...he keeps posting terms like..."I hope", ect. So chill out...take a pill and relax. Sheesh...Im an  and even I dont go as far as you just went. Threats of lawyerism and such are not only unwelcome from people that post here....they are unnecessary and childish. Consider yourself reported.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

If krusty has been true to his word then why do we receive any type of product week or months after he promises them.

As for no actual deadline and him saying that he's bad with dealines. False, check the page with teh book advertised. It specifically states a dealine of Friday July 21st, 2006.

Oh here it is.....List Price:  $13.95  
Pre-Order Price:  $12.50  
You Save:  $1.45  
Average Rating:  Not rated  
Release Date:  Fri, July 21, 2006  
Page Count:  208  
Download Size:  None  
Crunch:  7  


That's the 2nd ADVERTISED dealine. Can't take that money without suppling the product.

If he hopes to reach his dealine, he shoudl keep quiet and not set one.

And how you could report me is unseen to me. In neither of these post have I broken any of the rules of conduct. All I did was switch from a UK supporter to a UK diabeliever. This thread is to discuss the book and works therein. I have not been rude nor crude, bringing up the obvioulsy negative is hardly being mean either.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

...and justto clarify, I never threatened. Never told him i'd be going after him.

Just told him that if he plans on doing shaddy business, he might want to get a lawyer. It'd protect him more than anything.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

I don't think any person angered by the lack of a release would use litigation on U_K. You would be in court 'forever.' (it takes the man how long to get a book out, imagine the legal delays ) 
Geez if someone wanted the book so badly, they would know better than to do something so rash. It would only make the book take longer .
U_K!
Ignore the peanut gallery who just want the book now. While I think it would have been to your benifit to leave the "... 2006" part out of your release date, I can't be helped. Just finish the book as best you can, whenever you can. I think people forget that you do other things in your spare time than sit at a desk and type away. 
Keep at it U_K! The end is in sight. This is the biggest and most important book planned to my knowledge, therefore, it will be the biggest headache. Its all down hill from here.
As much as we all want a copy in our hands, this release is your work. You should do it Your way.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

I'm not angered by the wait. 

He can also do it which ever way he wants. But they do make these consumer/product laws so a supplier can be safe in making his product without having uprisings. It's for his own benefit that it at least be considered. In a community like this, most of us have gotten 'personal' with others and it becomes a friendly matter, which is fantastic. But serioulsy think of the regular consumer who itsn't a pal and forgiving enough to wait again....and again.....and again after they already paid. If you intend on selling a product to those outside a close circle you need to handle your business properly.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Honestly, I am annoyed.  I think it's ridiculous for him to massage his ego as much as he does with the procrastination issues he has.  But, hey - as he may have noticed, it's time to put up or be poor, so I'm confident that he's working on the product as swiftly as he can manage to.


----------



## dante58701

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Sleeping soundly from the intoxicating boredom inspired by infantile postings)...not in referance to you Anabstercorian.

As for serious concerns Anabstercorian...you may have something there. I think he should avoid setting any sort of date just to avoid the whinings of the impatient ones. While they do have legitimate concerns those concerns are being forcefully posted in a not so diplomatic manner. Perhaps they should try seeing it from his perspective. Ill put this into perspective.

1.He's one person...not a crew...working on the most impressive and detailed epic material ever written.

2.He has a life of his own (Id hope)...so is limited to only a small amount of time in which to cram the vastness of his brain into one overwhelmingly complicated book.

3.The math alone would be horrendous.

4.He has to listen to the impatient whinings of people. People who were already told by him that no release date scheduled is final (people really need to pay attention...he is a small business and as such he is going to have a hard time dealing with irregular customers)

5.He's been very forthcoming with updates and informations detailing what he's putting into the book.

6.He's probably exausted.

7.He's probably stressed and in dire need of a vacation.

8.We can wait just a little longer...it wont kill us. I probably want this book more than anyone...I also preordered it. So I can understand the impatience factor.

9.When he reads these posts he might get a bit hurt by the negativity, which could (and I hope it doesn't) negatively impact his ability to finish the product in the manner his genius should allow. 

10.As much as I want the book now...I want it done right even more. So I agree with Ltheb Silverfrond ...Keep going Krusty...were counting on you.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Dante said:
			
		

> I think he should avoid setting any sort of date just to avoid the whinings of the impatient ones. While they do have legitimate concerns those concerns are being forcefully posted in a not so diplomatic manner.




I can't be impatient, no where did I state I wanted said document right away. I was just pointing out that giving an unapporpriate dealine can cause havoc and is not correct business. I agree with no dealine, I wish there was never one set so those who did pre-order don't feel jipped. 

...and I havent been forceful at all, Dante. How you could see me pointing out a legality with the matter as undiplomatic is also beyond me. Everything was said in a complete proper manner. If anything this quote from you "ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Sleeping soundly from the intoxicating boredom inspired by infantile postings)...not in referance to you Anabstercorian.", is a perfect example you insulting me first. _That_ is a cause for _you_ to be reported.



			
				Dante said:
			
		

> 4.He has to listen to the impatient whinings of people. People who were already told by him that no release date scheduled is final (people really need to pay attention...he is a small business and as such he is going to have a hard time dealing with irregular customers)




There has been no whining or impatience. He can also talk all he wants about release dates on these boards but if he _advertises_ such, he's made a commitment to finish on time to all those who paid that don't have the pleasure to speak with him on these boards. Well, if you state he is a small business than you need to pay attention. As a 'business' what is transpiring with twice failed the release dates is bad business and has some legality to it. If it keeps up and there is no increase in organization than he'll be getting used to irregular customers.

If you have any further issues with me 'whining' why don't you bring it up with an e-mail instead of attempting to bring it out in the threads. That is more of a waste of time than a legit issue with UK's product.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Pssthpok mate! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> UK, when you set down the original release dates for your projects, is that when you sit down at the computer and start typing?




No thats when I estimate I'll have it finished by.

Of course you can't always see the future, like the Publisher coming back while you are trying to work on Ascension, and requiring what amounted to about 45-50 hours work on the Bestiary.

Or that in finishing parts of the book, new questions would arise that would need answered and thus, more work.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> It's what it seems like. I'm not trying to be offensive, but most of the 'work' in writing a document is the text, which can't take too much review before it's suitable for release. This leads me to believe that the _mechanics_ are the source of the friction, a point which futher leads me to believe that the system hasn't been a working whole for very long. This creates concern about the work as a whole. Wasn't there a playtest held on this system? Are the results from that playtest affecting the work as a whole? I understand you have MGP work to do, but does it really take more than a month or two to write up just over a dozen builds?




I appreciate your candour, but there is nothing wrong with the mechanics that I know of.

The books simply not finished because its not finished. I might know all the 475 abilities in Chapter 4, but its not like I have the completed text for all those abilities just ready to be copied and pasted.

Its one thing to know all the answers, its wholly another thing to have the text finished, and I don't mean finished in a slap-dash fashion, but that actually adheres to some form of half-decent prose.

Ascension's pre-ordering was a thing of necessity, not choice and I know its something I'll never want to do again (after getting my fingers burnt this time), and hopefully not need to after I recoup some of the profits from the Print version of the Bestiary.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Another day in the Elemental Plane of Fire here in the UK.




Today, though, seems to be returning for normal, at least for me.  In fact, everyoen I meet is freezing because they're weeraring short sleeved shirts and the like after the past few days.  ;-)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> With regards Ascension, its not a matter of having a completed text document in front of me that I am constantly reworking. Its more like having a partially finished document that I am constantly trying to finish while constantly reworking the parts I already have finished.




Yeah, I had a feeling that was the case.  In which case, the only advice I can give is to ignore what you've done for the moment and just crack down everything you can.  As amazing as your new insight into how a templates special ability could be reworded, you've got to try to cast it aside and write what isn't there at all, and get back to the omnific feats.  Take a note, but don't forever try to jump back and forth between different sections when things come to you: for one thing, you might find yourself changing the same thing several times when, had you waited to the end, there'd only be one operation required.

Also, we all know what you're like with deadlines  and appreciate that when multiple work assignments clash, sometimes you need to make prioritising which means a deadline get shifted: but each new product you bring out means new people, which means new people toi get confused about why it's 9:00am on the day after your product deadline and it ain't out.    I dunno really how to fix this: people will always want to know when the product is coming out, and no matter how mucb buffer time you offer there's always the risk.  I guess you  could try "winter 2006" style dates at first, and only offer specific months then weeks when the time gets closer and you actually know how busy you are in the dying seconds: but even then, the best laid plans and all that.  ;-)



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...you might have the September release confused with the Print Version of the Bestiary. Which is coming out in September.




I'm not confused about anything, it was just a hypothetical., since I had no release date to work from at the time.  Not everything is about you, you egomaniac.  ;-)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Normally companies have a _finished_ product before they _take money_. There are legalities and rules protecting consumer from fake products.




What then is the point of the whole pre-ordering scheme? If you have the thing finished then surely pre-ordering is irrelevant. Therefore if, as you attest, the work must always be finished before transactions take place, what point is pre-ordering?

Surely pre-ordering involves a measure of trust between the Publisher and the Buyer?

Before I released the Bestiary pdf, no one would have had any reason to trust me, but I would like to think since then I have cultivated some sort of relationship with people, enough to get them to trust me past a few weeks of delay (knowing what I am like with deadlines) without getting upset.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Really, any schmo can slate he has a product and put it up for sale, take your money, and not provide anything.....or drag you along once said money has been received. As a company, i'd hope you check over all legalities for promising a product and all liabilities you will have to face for not producing.




How does it benefit me not to have this work finished as soon as possible? What the heck do you people think I am doing here, out partying on the pre-order money or something!?



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> This is the 2nd miss deadline that has bene posted _after_ payments have been received.
> 
> You have a lawsuit on your hands if anyone of us gamers had the money to do so, instead of spending money on unseen promised products.




Well if you believe a lawsuit is warranted because of a few weeks delay over a matter of $12.50 then the world has just become an overly cynical and distressing place to live in.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> As a man of honour, I hope you intend on correcting the situation. Whether it's refunding money and not taking anymore until your product is finished and ready for sale, or some type of equivilent bonus.




Surely the best thing I can do is finish Ascension as quickly as possible. Frankly I just want to be done with it now, because all this business is starting to leave a really bad taste and sour something I had hoped would excite people.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Any other product and most of you would be at your local Wal-marts looking for refunds. The only reason people seem complacent with getting ripped off is from the boost of hope and faith that has been instilled within them for 5 years. _5 YEARS_. At least give us the beneift of receiving a final product when we pay for it when you say it's ready. Otherwise I don't see how anyone else isn't taking this as an insullt to their patience or loyalty.
> 
> If you plan on continuing business in that fashion with your products, get yourself a lawyer.




While I hold my hand up and acknowledge my inability to meet deadlines (which is why I hate giving them and was forced into it with Ascension) if this represents the level of trust people have in me then I think Ascension may well be my last product.

I didn't get into this to upset people, and I certainly didn't get into it to be called a charlatan and threatened with legal action.


----------



## GQuail

CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Normally companies have a _finished_ product before they _take money_. There are legalities and rules protecting consumer from fake products.




I'm not going to get too bogged down in this paticular strand of discussion: but I will say that whilst I agree that continually failing to meet self-apointed deadlines isn't very classy, throwing around accusations of dubious or illegal behaviour around someone offering a pre-order seems pretty silly.

Pre-ordering is not an idea only U_K has ever ran with: even just in RPG circles, it's not uncommon for books before they are finished to ensure funding and establish how big the support is for them.  Hell, if you go onto Amazon, you'll see all kinds of films, games and books offered up for pre-order, sometimes only after appearing as a "to be released 2006" entry in a press release.  Such products missing deadlines, changing price or vanishing altogether is not unheard of: but people pre-order anyway, hoping to score a cheaper price, a first dibs when it comes to delivery, or just to help out a company whose products they enjoy.

Whether you intend to or not, CR_UNLIMITED, these past few posts have certainly come across as "threatning" to me.  I'm not expecting every post on this thread to be a "OMG Krusty is so great!!!!11111111!1!1one!" , of course: but if you really think there'se a trading standards sort of issue here, then I suggest you either bring it up with the online store you bought it from and see what their stance is.  Upper_Krust ahs made it clear he subscribes to the Duke Nukem Forever model of release dates: threatning him with legal trouble is not going to make him magically produce Ascension.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Surely the best thing I can do is finish Ascension as quickly as possible. Frankly I just want to be done with it now, because all this business is starting to leave a really bad taste and sour something I had hoped would excite people.




I've got to be honest and say that, when the original pre-order was announced, I did get quite excited and was checking regularly for more information on what was going to happen with the product: but after two missed deadlines (both of which came up shortly before the deadline in question) it has somewhat dampened my enthusiasm.  Sure, when it comes out, I'll read it and get excited again: but some of my glee for it has been tarnished.





			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> While I hold my hand up and acknowledge my inability to meet deadlines (which is why I hate giving them and was forced into it with Ascension) if this represents the level of trust people have in me then I think Ascension may well be my last product.





I think that you have to accept that most people place merit on release dates in the RPG circle: just look at the threads on General discussing new press releases about upcoming products, or the threads the moment Dungeon/Dragon come out with people complaining their copy is a few days behind schedule.  I know I'll oft ask my FLGS if a product I know is out this month is due in soon at the start of the month, and perhaps keep asking every fortnight if there's still no sign of it.  However, whereas a print product is usually finsihed being typed months before release and thusly progress can be a lot easier to judge, PDF release like yours can run "11th hour" efforts: and that's going to jar with people's other experiences wtih RPG purchases.  Temple of Elemental Evil withstanding.

It's a damned either way situation: When you give people a date, people will be dissapointed when you don't meet it: but when you don't give them a date, they're going to get frustrated that you can't offer them any idea of when the product will be released.  Unfortunatly, if you're one of nature's poor deadline keepers, there's little you can do bar pull a Scotty and give all dates with a huge buffer zone.  ;-)


----------



## Rockhoward56

*hum*

I trust Krusty , He's not a charlatan.
I can wait , because he want to publish a good book!
About the  print bestiary: you have revised all the CR? Could you publish the CR revised please because he could be useful!  
Algol only Cr 160? and he had a neutronium golem?????
U-K i'm thinking about this stuff:
Sandalphon is CR130 ok but if the player (evil one) would have the crazy idea to battle him?
His Cr In Upper Plane would be far beyond CR130 ( cause he could summon all Kyriotates , malakim etc, and maybe use his epic ritual to awaken a Cherubim)
I think , another CR in conjunction with the ability to summon or to be a Leader of Being(Eevils , Angels etc , would be more accurate?)


----------



## dante58701

Krusty rules...keep at it Krusty. Ignore the cynism!!! You ROCK!!!!


----------



## Ace32

Hey U_K, 

I've been following your IH threads since the beginning and I just want to say that I'm ecstatic for the release of your book. I read through Bestiary and enjoyed it, although I will admit that I am more interested in your divine rules than anything else. 

I will say that I am disapointed to hear that the release won't be tomorrow - but only because I can't wait to read it!

Keep up the good work! Its been years in the making, this old fan can wait a few more weeks (even if it kills him). Unlike the rest, I haven't been letting my world and enthusiasm revolve around the release date - but the product itself.


----------



## Pssthpok

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Of course you can't always see the future, like the Publisher coming back while you are trying to work on Ascension, and requiring what amounted to about 45-50 hours work on the Bestiary.
> 
> Or that in finishing parts of the book, new questions would arise that would need answered and thus, more work.




This is understandable, as I mentioned in my post. Of course, it is a somewhat clearer image of the circumstances. It's one thing to come online and see "I won't make the deadline again, sorry, not happening", and another to actually know why. The ambiguous delays were casting shadows of larger problems, so I appreciate the clarification.



> I appreciate your candour, but there is nothing wrong with the mechanics that I know of.




Well, that's good to know.



> I know its something I'll never want to do again (after getting my fingers burnt this time), and hopefully not need to after I recoup some of the profits from the Print version of the Bestiary.




Well, best of luck to you. I reiterate that I didn't want to come across as a hardass, but I'm certain you can understand the inability of seemingly endless delays to keep up the enthusiasm for ever. From our perspective, you've had the system worked out for years now. When fortnight delays become part-and-parcel, it can wear on one's enthusiasm, trust, and interest for the product in general. Like everyone else here, I want you to finish and be happy with your work, but the deadline mirages are a bane to your reputation. Again, good luck.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> You have a lawsuit on your hands if anyone of us gamers had the money to do so, instead of spending money on unseen promised products.
> 
> As a man of honour, ...



With the threat of lawsuits flung around over a few dollars I was going to say that you are a true American... but with that spelling of "honour" you are at least an American _at heart_. 


			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> If you plan on continuing business in that fashion with your products, get yourself a lawyer.



Yup, the heart of an American.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Heck, you want some people who can't meet deadlines?  www.godlike.com .  Now THEY can't finish a product.


----------



## JonnyFive

U_K
keep it up man. after purchasing and reading the epic bestiary for a game here, i was thourly immpressed with your work.  when i saw an add for your book on pre-order, i ordered it WITHOUT knowing the release date, and i didn't even know that there was one till i started following this thread and all the people winning about it.

i personaly want to applaud you on taking the time to get your material straight. if software designers and other writers had the strength of will to delay this to make sure we get the quality you showed in in the Bestiary.  keep up the good work!


----------



## Arg-ha Lardgoa

Some people need to relax, it may seem like a long delay for those that have just recently joined us in the quest for the Ascension, but for those of us who have supported UK for the last three-four years in his writing of these awe inspiring books a few more weeks makes no never mind for us, we want UK to succeed and not to put out any old product


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Wow...do you guys read the posts of just get frustrated when you see someone who's not kissing UK's butt?

Never once did I threaten legal action, never did I say I will be at his door with a laywer, i'd hope he'd like to know that what he's doing can warrent legal action and there are a lot of people among teh mases who don't care for excuses when they see you as a business and not some chum on the boards. 



			
				UK said:
			
		

> What then is the point of the whole pre-ordering scheme? If you have the thing finished then surely pre-ordering is irrelevant. Therefore if, as you attest, the work must always be finished before transactions take place, what point is pre-ordering?




No, they have a finished product. The point of pre-ording is to build euthusiaism for their product. If anything the only thing not finsihed buy that stage is the something minimial like Box Cover art not the whole product. Like I said, otherwise everyone can put something up for pre-order and spend 2 years making that product if they wish. They make these rules not to only protect the consumer but it also protects the company as well. I'm sure that companies that follow these rules never see such a distaste for their product before it's even out.



> Before I released the Bestiary pdf, no one would have had any reason to trust me, but I would like to think since then I have cultivated some sort of relationship with people, enough to get them to trust me past a few weeks of delay (knowing what I am like with deadlines) without getting upset




They trusted you because before the Bestiary you had the project pumped for 3-4 _years_ before hand. When they've come so far, it'd be ridiculous to give up. You can expect your buddies that trust you know to not be upset, sure, but not those who are just purchasing the product, which I hope is the purpose when you put it up for interent sale. I'd hope you'd want your product to be successful outside of your buddies and if you do, good business is the only way to go since you can't give them smileys say "Hiya Mate" and tell them you're bad with deadlines.



> Well if you believe a lawsuit is warranted because of a few weeks delay over a matter of $12.50 then the world has just become an overly cynical and distressing place to live in.




The worlds already like that. I've seen lawsuits for worse. Again, never said i'll be doing squat, just letting ya know there _is_ a legal reason now for someone to take you to court for this and win. You'd be better off with not putting out release dates. Just like with your previous comment about release dates, You have to have something to sell before you put it for pre-order, not throw it together once you put it for sale.



> Surely the best thing I can do is finish Ascension as quickly as possible. Frankly I just want to be done with it now, because all this business is starting to leave a really bad taste and sour something I had hoped would excite people.




It is the best thing you can do, as well as take off any advertised released date. It's oddly funny, if I was a business and was told what I did was wrong and can lead to legal liabilities, i'd make sure I didn't lose my business. But everyone is so stuck with this UK trend that just a graze of fresh air going in the opposite direction is a 'threat'.



> While I hold my hand up and acknowledge my inability to meet deadlines (which is why I hate giving them and was forced into it with Ascension) if this represents the level of trust people have in me then I think Ascension may well be my last product.




If you were forced into it, i'm curious as why you weren't forced into finishing it on time. You claim to have done publishing before, you know how sticklers people can be for deadlines, especially when you work with people who don't care about your personal affairs only their business. 

I once knew a man who didn't get his way and walked out of this theatre I work at. We called it "taking his toys and going home". If you can get that frustrated and quit from someone telling you reality with rules of business, i wonder what the heck WoTC is still doing in business, lord knows their line of trust from their people wavers immensely.



> I didn't get into this to upset people, and I certainly didn't get into it to be called a charlatan and threatened with legal action.




Neither did I. I no has called you a charlatan nor threatened you with legal action. Maybe that's why it's taking so long to do texts, I mean, if you read my posts carefully I did neither of the above.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Wow...do you guys read the posts of just get frustrated when you see someone who's not kissing UK's butt?

Never once did I threaten legal action, never did I say I will be at his door with a laywer, i'd hope he'd like to know that what he's doing can warrent legal action and there are a lot of people among teh mases who don't care for excuses when they see you as a business and not some chum on the boards. 



			
				UK said:
			
		

> What then is the point of the whole pre-ordering scheme? If you have the thing finished then surely pre-ordering is irrelevant. Therefore if, as you attest, the work must always be finished before transactions take place, what point is pre-ordering?




No, they have a finished product. The point of pre-ording is to build euthusiaism for their product. If anything the only thing not finsihed buy that stage is the something minimial like Box Cover art not the whole product. Like I said, otherwise everyone can put something up for pre-order and spend 2 years making that product if they wish. They make these rules not to only protect the consumer but it also protects the company as well. I'm sure that companies that follow these rules never see such a distaste for their product before it's even out.



> Before I released the Bestiary pdf, no one would have had any reason to trust me, but I would like to think since then I have cultivated some sort of relationship with people, enough to get them to trust me past a few weeks of delay (knowing what I am like with deadlines) without getting upset




They trusted you because before the Bestiary you had the project pumped for 3-4 _years_ before hand. When they've come so far, it'd be ridiculous to give up. You can expect your buddies that trust you know to not be upset, sure, but not those who are just purchasing the product, which I hope is the purpose when you put it up for interent sale. I'd hope you'd want your product to be successful outside of your buddies and if you do, good business is the only way to go since you can't give them smileys say "Hiya Mate" and tell them you're bad with deadlines.



> Well if you believe a lawsuit is warranted because of a few weeks delay over a matter of $12.50 then the world has just become an overly cynical and distressing place to live in.




The worlds already like that. I've seen lawsuits for worse. Again, never said i'll be doing squat, just letting ya know there _is_ a legal reason now for someone to take you to court for this and win. You'd be better off with not putting out release dates. Just like with your previous comment about release dates, You have to have something to sell before you put it for pre-order, not throw it together once you put it for sale.



> Surely the best thing I can do is finish Ascension as quickly as possible. Frankly I just want to be done with it now, because all this business is starting to leave a really bad taste and sour something I had hoped would excite people.




It is the best thing you can do, as well as take off any advertised released date. It's oddly funny, if I was a business and was told what I did was wrong and can lead to legal liabilities, i'd make sure I didn't lose my business. But everyone is so stuck with this UK trend that just a graze of fresh air going in the opposite direction is a 'threat'.



> While I hold my hand up and acknowledge my inability to meet deadlines (which is why I hate giving them and was forced into it with Ascension) if this represents the level of trust people have in me then I think Ascension may well be my last product.




If you were forced into it, i'm curious as why you weren't forced into finishing it on time. You claim to have done publishing before, you know how sticklers people can be for deadlines, especially when you work with people who don't care about your personal affairs only their business. 

I once knew a man who didn't get his way and walked out of this theatre I work at. We called it "taking his toys and going home". If you can get that frustrated and quit from someone telling you reality with rules of business, i wonder what the heck WoTC is still doing in business, lord knows their line of trust from their people wavers immensely.



> I didn't get into this to upset people, and I certainly didn't get into it to be called a charlatan and threatened with legal action.




Neither did I. No one has called you a charlatan nor threatened you with legal action. Maybe that's why it's taking so long to do texts, I mean, if you read my posts carefully I did neither of the above.


----------



## Squire James

I think you guys are being too hard on CRU... who is simply acting as a bearer of bad news here.  He didn't threaten to sue, he just warned UK that others may not be so kind.  That being said, anyone who pays money to pre-order from something from an unpublished author should know what they're getting into.

BTW, I am very interested in your product and there is a high probability that you will get my order soon after the release.


----------



## dante58701

I think CR Unlimited is talking again. Ive iggied him so I have no idea what he's saying, but Im sure it's more negativity and self inflation. Why hasnt he been given a finger wagging yet? If I were behaving like him..Ida been banned by now. Anyhooo...off to look at critters in the Creature Catalogue.


----------



## CR_UNLIMITED!!!

Why owuld a finger be wagged at me?

I did nothing wrong Dante. It's not like I made a sweeping generlization about "christians liking to start flame wars over god threads". Shall I get the exact quote from you or would you rather change it first?

Now since your posts to date about my posts have nothing in rebutile and are about nothing to do with the problem or book i suggest you e-mail me as I said before if you have an issue. I have not receved an e-mail from you yet and your last post still tells me you have an issue with me. Why you haven't e-mailed me from teh first time I told you to stop attempting to drag me down and continue to do is beyond me. Man up Dante, nothing you have said since i've posted has been about the problem or book. E-mail me if you have anything else to say that has nothing to do with teh book. I'd love to deal with you on a more personal basis after all you've said.


----------



## Ace32

Actually, CRU, I think he said he had you on his ignore list - so I doubt he's seeing anything you've posted. 

However, I think we all need to drop the bickering about lawsuits. If nobody is threatening to sue anybody, theres no reason to keep tossing it around.. let it die. 

Product roll out can be traumatic, even for big companies (book, video game, and the whatnot) - who have postponed deadlines in instances, even after pre-orders. Generally, the market will determine how long that group will remain in the black - if they feel they are getting screwed, the customers will turn on them. 

Let's just let it play out and keep an ear to the ground for when the product is released. Those of you that preordered will be among the first to know.


----------



## Piratecat

*CRU, please take this particular problem out of this thread and address the problem with UK via email. Derailing the thread for this isn't something that should occur. There's nothing inherently wrong with asking about a delayed product, but we're sinking into frustrated sniping and bickering, and that's not okay.

If this is a problem for some reason, feel free to email me.*


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again!



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Wow...do you guys read the posts of just get frustrated when you see someone who's not kissing UK's butt?




I prefer to have it kissed rather than sued if those are the two choices on offer.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Never once did I threaten legal action, never did I say I will be at his door with a laywer,




But you did blatantly stir things up and blow what was a 3 week delay out of all proportion, where you were supporting the stance to sue me, even if you decided not to do so yourself.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> i'd hope he'd like to know that what he's doing can warrent legal action and there are a lot of people among teh mases who don't care for excuses when they see you as a business and not some chum on the boards.




I don't take trust for granted, but I have trouble believing anyone in their right mind would take legal action over a, 'thus far' 3 week delay on a product costing $12.50. Especially after I have explained the situation (previous delay) on the website.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> No, they have a finished product. The point of pre-ording is to build euthusiaism for their product. If anything the only thing not finsihed buy that stage is the something minimial like Box Cover art not the whole product. Like I said, otherwise everyone can put something up for pre-order and spend 2 years making that product if they wish. They make these rules not to only protect the consumer but it also protects the company as well. I'm sure that companies that follow these rules never see such a distaste for their product before it's even out.




Illogical. Your reasoning totally invalidates the whole point of pre-ordering in the first place.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> They trusted you because before the Bestiary you had the project pumped for 3-4 _years_ before hand. When they've come so far, it'd be ridiculous to give up. You can expect your buddies that trust you know to not be upset, sure, but not those who are just purchasing the product, which I hope is the purpose when you put it up for interent sale. I'd hope you'd want your product to be successful outside of your buddies and if you do, good business is the only way to go since you can't give them smileys say "Hiya Mate" and tell them you're bad with deadlines.




I have already explained that the pre-ordering of Ascension at that time was born out of necessity. If not for that pre-ordering I would have had to halt work on it altogether. So the choice was to take pre-orders and keep working on Ascension or not and halt production on it for at least 5-6 months maybe longer. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> The worlds already like that. I've seen lawsuits for worse.




I find that hard to believe.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Again, never said i'll be doing squat, just letting ya know there _is_ a legal reason now for someone to take you to court for this and win.




Well you better hope no one does sue me otherwise you'll never get it will you. So, smart move in bringing it up.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> You'd be better off with not putting out release dates. Just like with your previous comment about release dates, You have to have something to sell before you put it for pre-order, not throw it together once you put it for sale.




When I gave the original release date I thought I would have met it. The second release date was missed to to reworking of the bestiary for the printers.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> It is the best thing you can do, as well as take off any advertised released date. It's oddly funny, if I was a business and was told what I did was wrong and can lead to legal liabilities, i'd make sure I didn't lose my business. But everyone is so stuck with this UK trend that just a graze of fresh air going in the opposite direction is a 'threat'.




I'm always happy to hear advice or constructive criticism, but your posts seem to be more scaremongering than helpful.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> If you were forced into it, i'm curious as why you weren't forced into finishing it on time. You claim to have done publishing before, you know how sticklers people can be for deadlines, especially when you work with people who don't care about your personal affairs only their business.




The bulk of the delay has been in making changes to the Print Version of the Bestiary for goodness sake.



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> I once knew a man who didn't get his way and walked out of this theatre I work at. We called it "taking his toys and going home". If you can get that frustrated and quit from someone telling you reality with rules of business, i wonder what the heck WoTC is still doing in business, lord knows their line of trust from their people wavers immensely.




Admittedly that moment of madness has passed, but frankly at the time I was feeling pretty unappreciated for putting in about 55 hours of work a week while at the same time living on a budget of about £15/week. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Neither did I. No one has called you a charlatan nor threatened you with legal action.




You certainly implied it though. 



			
				CR_UNLIMITED!!! said:
			
		

> Maybe that's why it's taking so long to do texts, I mean, if you read my posts carefully I did neither of the above.




Do I have enough time to read it carefully before someone begins legal action, thats the question.


----------



## Piratecat

UK, did you read my note just above your post? I've asked CRU to no longer discuss this matter in this thread. Responding to his post makes that a whole lot more difficult.

Seriously, please either start a new thread about this in the Publisher's forum or handle it by email, but don't continue to discuss it here. If you want to talk about it, please email me.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*I'm with you U-k*

hum
I trust Krusty , He's not a charlatan.
I can wait , because he want to publish a good book!
About the print bestiary: you have revised all the CR? Could you publish the CR revised please because he could be useful!
Algol only Cr 160? and he had a neutronium golem?????
U-K i'm thinking about this stuff:
Sandalphon is CR130 ok but if the players (evil of course) would have the crazy idea to battle him?
His Cr In Upper Plane would be far beyond CR130 ( cause he could summon all Kyriotates , malakim etc, and maybe use his epic ritual to awaken a Cherubim)
 
 I sure you're doing a excellent work on Ascension and the print bestiary!
I'm curious about the rework on the Bestiary


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Piratecat! 



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> UK, did you read my note just above your post? I've asked CRU to no longer discuss this matter in this thread. Responding to his post makes that a whole lot more difficult.




Yes but if you take a glance at the times between your post and mine (11 minutes), you will understand that I clicked reply before you had made your post. So I didn't see it until after I had responded.

However, if you want me to delete it I will.



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> Seriously, please either start a new thread about this in the Publisher's forum or handle it by email, but don't continue to discuss it here. If you want to talk about it, please email me.




I don't want to discuss it here at all, and for the record I did just create a thread about it in the Publishers Forum, although that was more along the lines of asking for advice on the matter rather than furthering any debate.

If CR_Unlimited has anything further to discuss on this matter I am happy to accomodate him via email.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 

I apologise for missing your post earlier.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> hum
> I trust Krusty , He's not a charlatan.
> I can wait , because he want to publish a good book!




I appreciate the faith dude. 

I noted the new deadline of August 11th on the website. I promise I won't miss that one.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> About the print bestiary: you have revised all the CR? Could you publish the CR revised please because he could be useful!




All except the dragons.

I am not sure the new CRs will do you much good because they nearly all correspond to changes in the equipment lists.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Algol only Cr 160? and he had a neutronium golem?????




No. Algol isonly an Old One. Neutronium Golems were created by Time Lords.

A Time Lord is to an Old One what a Quasi-deity is to a Greater God, 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> U-K i'm thinking about this stuff:
> Sandalphon is CR130 ok but if the players (evil of course) would have the crazy idea to battle him?




Hes a tough cookie. What ECL are your players?



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> His Cr In Upper Plane would be far beyond CR130 ( cause he could summon all Kyriotates , malakim etc, and maybe use his epic ritual to awaken a Cherubim)




Home Plane in Ascension is a bit more detailed (and powerful) than in the Bestiary. 

I'd suggest a CR increase of about +6 for the Bestiary. Although its +25% in Ascension. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> I sure you're doing a excellent work on Ascension and the print bestiary!
> 
> I'm curious about the rework on the Bestiary




Yes I had the good news this afternoon, that they have accepted all my refinements to the Bestiary and the Printing is going ahead. So my work on that front is complete.

The changes involve mostly equipment, errata and a few powers. Unelementals/Void Dragons had a few changes.


----------



## Piratecat

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If CR_Unlimited has anything further to discuss on this matter I am happy to accomodate him via email.



That'll be just fine. Thanks!


----------



## Rockhoward56

*thank you mate!*

 
Thanks!  
For algol i was asking about the one of your adentures plot for the neutronium golem!
Want to see the divinty template ,hihihi , Gods , cosmic entity , Time Lord and all.
Want to see the explanation about the Akashic Memory stuff (Omniversal D.N.A)
Want to play with Domedon ( i love BIG CR LOL)
About Sandalphon , my player can't beat him (ECL 45) but it was just a crazy idea   
Dear U-K , would you explain someday in one of Your excellent book (this is true , i love tthe bestiary ,titanium and void dragons are sooooooooo good!) what's his the Gautlet of Ghost???
I was thinking Xiphoid could be a Great Time Lord to describe too because Alabaster want the World Sword 
Keep working man!


----------



## dante58701

what would happen if a malakim and a maskim got together...bumped uglies...and produced a child. Would it have the collective abilities of both parents? Or would it become an equally powerful creature of it's own variety that blends some of the abilities of both. I ascribe to the fusion theory myself...but only for the sake of explaining how such a thing would survive being annihiliated.


----------



## dante58701

Orichalcum guardians...yeah...what keeps them from crashing through floors and getting stuck in dirt or gravel. One would imagine that all that weight focused on two little feet could be a problem. Are they somehow able to defy gravity? Or does their own gravity allow them to ignore lower gravities? How does that work?


----------



## Strife

i dont know if this has been asked already, but how much will the print version of the Bestiary cost?
I may have to purchase several, me and my group love it, and i dont want my friends mooching my book away from me, 
really love the stuff though UK
we intend to restart a game we had played in set in the warhammer world using ascension for the characters and villians

this is a game where the heroes must fight the chaos demon were everyone else has failed, empire and Nagash have fallen...

will you have more information on spells of higher than 9th level, and how your automatic metamagic capacity works for them
like the example you talked about on your website about a 12th level antimagic field (1/2 magic is 6th 1/3 magic is 12 1/4 magic is 18 and so on)
just wondering


----------



## Alzrius

So, just to be clear, the work on the print version of the _Bestiary_ is totally and completely done? You can focus 100% on _Ascension_ now, U_K?


----------



## Upper_Krust

By the way did those people who pre-ordered Ascension get the email I sent out last night?



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Thanks!




Anytime mate! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> For algol i was asking about the one of your adentures plot for the neutronium golem!




I think the neutronium golem in question would have to be damaged in some way.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Want to see the divinty template ,hihihi , Gods , cosmic entity , Time Lord and all.




You will soon. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Want to see the explanation about the Akashic Memory stuff (Omniversal D.N.A)




I prefer the metaphors for the more powerful entities to their descriptions. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Want to play with Domedon ( i love BIG CR LOL)




Domodon won't be in Ascension but Tetragrammaton will.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> About Sandalphon , my player can't beat him (ECL 45) but it was just a crazy idea








			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Dear U-K , would you explain someday in one of Your excellent book (this is true , i love tthe bestiary ,titanium and void dragons are sooooooooo good!) what's his the Gautlet of Ghost???




The Gauntlet of Ghosts was based on the Hand of Qwll (from Michael Moorcok's Corum series).



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> I was thinking Xiphoid could be a Great Time Lord to describe too because Alabaster want the World Sword




Alabaster doesn't understand that Xiphoid is a massive big sword that can cleave planets in two. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Keep working man!




I will.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> what would happen if a malakim and a maskim got together...bumped uglies...and produced a child. Would it have the collective abilities of both parents? Or would it become an equally powerful creature of it's own variety that blends some of the abilities of both. I ascribe to the fusion theory myself...but only for the sake of explaining how such a thing would survive being annihiliated.




Simply put, it depends on whether or not both parties want the child or not. You have to expend quintessence to have a healthy immortal baby. If you don't the child is aborted.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Orichalcum guardians...yeah...what keeps them from crashing through floors and getting stuck in dirt or gravel. One would imagine that all that weight focused on two little feet could be a problem. Are they somehow able to defy gravity? Or does their own gravity allow them to ignore lower gravities? How does that work?




I think they should ignore weaker gravitational pulls. So they would still be affected by a Neutronium Golems gravitic aura.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Strife! 



			
				Strife said:
			
		

> i dont know if this has been asked already, but how much will the print version of the Bestiary cost?




Initially we talked about it being $19.95, but because of the increasingly weakening dollar it was decided upon $24.95. 



			
				Strife said:
			
		

> I may have to purchase several, me and my group love it, and i dont want my friends mooching my book away from me,








			
				Strife said:
			
		

> really love the stuff though UK
> we intend to restart a game we had played in set in the warhammer world using ascension for the characters and villians




Cool. I totally love the Warhammer world. Both fantasy and 40k.



			
				Strife said:
			
		

> this is a game where the heroes must fight the chaos demon were everyone else has failed, empire and Nagash have fallen...




Empire AND Nagash fallen...ouch! Who took Nagash down? He was probably the top spellcaster on the planet.



			
				Strife said:
			
		

> will you have more information on spells of higher than 9th level, and how your automatic metamagic capacity works for them like the example you talked about on your website about a 12th level antimagic field (1/2 magic is 6th 1/3 magic is 12 1/4 magic is 18 and so on) just wondering




All the stuff on magic spells and items will be in the Immortals Handbook: Grimoire (which is the book after Ascension...though forgive me if I don't give a release date at this juncture).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> So, just to be clear, the work on the print version of the _Bestiary_ is totally and completely done? You can focus 100% on _Ascension_ now, U_K?




As far as I know, yes.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way did those people who pre-ordered Ascension get the email I sent out last night?




I did, certainly.  And it did cheer me up to read the contents therein.  :>


----------



## dante58701

email? Where? LOL!! I didnt see one but I would love to. Ill check my email and see if it's there

it's pontoonpontoon2000@yahoo.com


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> By the way did those people who pre-ordered Ascension get the email I sent out last night?




I haven't seen anything yet but would love to receive it.  

I'll send you an e-mail.


----------



## dante58701

Ok...on the premise that both parents of the maskim + malakim offspring want the child and were more than willing and able to sacrifice themselves to ensure it would in herit both of their full abilities...would it be possible...if they sacrificed themselves...or would such a sacrifice even be necessary? the most important question though...is it possible for a such a creature to exist.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

I suspect the email would have went to the address via which you pre-ordered Ascension...your paypal email for instance.

...and thanks for the emails of support. Much appreciated. 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Ok...on the premise that both parents of the maskim + malakim offspring want the child and were more than willing and able to sacrifice themselves to ensure it would in herit both of their full abilities...would it be possible...if they sacrificed themselves...or would such a sacrifice even be necessary? the most important question though...is it possible for a such a creature to exist.




Such a child would be born a quasi-deity, the two parents only have to sacrifice some quintessence they don't have to give up any divine power.

It would not have all the abilities of both parents, in fact it may not necessarily have any of its parents abilities. You'll get to see how it all works out in Ascension.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I suspect the email would have went to the address via which you pre-ordered Ascension...your paypal email for instance.
> 
> ...and thanks for the emails of support. Much appreciated.




That could explain the problem but I didn't see anything on my wife's e-mail.

It's not as though you don't have plenty to do at this point, but I would greatly appreciate if you could send it as a reply to my e-mail of this morning.

Sorry to be a pain!


----------



## dante58701

I didnt get it either.


----------



## dante58701

If you send the email to my previously noted email address Ill definately get it.


----------



## dante58701

I found this at Umbrasa Gravelands...whats ur take on it...and how would it fit into your cosmology?


Golden Hind
Large Outsider
Hit Dice: 34d8+340 (493 hp)
Initiative: +24 (+16 Dexterity, +8 Superior Initiative)
Speed: 120 ft.
Armor Class: 50 (-1 size, +16 Dexterity, +25 natural), touch 25, flat-footed 34
Base Attack/Grapple: +41/+46
Attack: +5 composite longbow (+8 Str bonus) +50 ranged (2d6+13 plus poison) or gore +41 melee (2d8+8 plus poison) or 2 hooves +41 melee (2d8+8)
Full Attack: +5 composite longbow (+8 Str bonus) +50 ranged (2d6+13 plus poison) or gore +41 melee (2d8+8 plus poison) and 2 hooves +36 melee (2d8+8)
Face/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Divine resistance, evasion, swift tracker, favored enemy (deities), endless stamina, trackless step, damage reduction 10/epic, nature’s affinity, regeneration 10
Saves: Fort +29, Ref +35, Will +28
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 42, Con 31, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 30
Skills: Balance +35, Bluff +15, Concentration +29, Craft +25, Handle Animal +37, Heal +33, Hide +32, Jump +36, Knowledge (geography) +35, Knowledge (nature) +37, Knowledge (religion) +30, Listen +35, Move Silently +37, Perform (sing) +20, Search +36, Sense Motive +16, Spot +36, Survival +36, and Swim +37, Tumble +32.  
Feats: Dodge, Far Shot, Improved Initiative, Improved Precise Shot, Mobility, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot On The Run, Stealthy, Track * 
Epic Feats: Blinding Speed, Superior Initiative
Environment: Any woodland or forest
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 42
Treasure: Standard plus +5 composite longbow
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 35-44 (Large)  
Level Adjustment: ---

Kensho closes his eyes as he concentrates on hearing whatever has given him the feeling of being followed, listening for the faintest indication of a threat. He didn’t know how long it’s been tailing the group, but it’s definitely there. As his superb hearing picks up the tiniest sound, he hears the faint sound of a bow being drawn back in the distance. He screams for everyone to find cover, diving to push Silvius, his wizard friend and fellow hero-deity behind the remains of a great fallen tree, but it was too late. The arrow slid cleanly between Silvius’ ribs and emerged partially out of his back. As Benedict flips him over to snap the arrowhead and desperately attempt to save his transfixed friend, Kensho peeks over the log to identify the assailant only to see another arrow flying towards his skull. Kensho’s  training at the temple definitely paid off as he darts under the giant log, narrowly avoiding having his cranium pierced.  

“Why are you attacking us?! What could have we probably done to warrant such malice?” Kensho shouts.  

A voice seemingly too beautiful and melodic to have such malevolence behind it answers, “I did not intend to kill the wizard, monk. But he moved into my line of fire. All I want is the cleric, for his masters are the ones who hunted my kind to extinction! Leave him and the rest of you may go in peace!”  

“Of course we won’t accept those terms!” Kensho replies angrily.  

Benedict seemed to be somewhat relieved at the sound of your reply as he works frantically to close Silvius’ wound. “Kensho,” Benedict calls out, “something is wrong. Silvius’ powers should have healed his wound almost immediately, yet he is mortally wounded. Not only that but this strange golden substance is resisting my healing magics, it’s almost as if...” Benedict hesitates.  

“As if what?!” Kensho demands.

 “As if his spark is… gone. As if it… destroys divinity.” Benedict replies meekly.

“What do you mean…gone? You don’t think this thing can take away our power?” a befuddled Tragg asks weakly, a tone unbecoming for the former second-in-command of the 5th Phalanx of Heaven.  

“Yes.”, replies Benedict, “And I think its using poison to do so. This golden liquid is unfamiliar to me, but seems to be the catalyst for this most blasphemous ailment. Kensho, we have to take this… creature down. We don’t know where it is but if we retreat now it’ll just pick us off one by one.”

“Fo’ once I agree with the choirboy, we have to take this monster down fast and hard. I’ll tear out its pansy-ass guts and use ‘em fo’ a pillow!” Tragg bellows.

“Quiet!” Kensho commands, “I think I just saw whatever is attacking us. It looks like a centaur with golden antlers. It’s coming this way, and it’s fast! We’re not prepared for this! Gate us out! Now!”

This fabulous creature is a shining beacon of perfection. Its face is the epitome of beauty itself, its voice the very essence of music. Amber eyes brimming with malice and sorrow arrest your attention. Golden-brown skin with gold flecks sprinkled across its flesh covers the cervid portion of its body, while golden scales so fine that they are indistinguishable from skin cover its perfectly muscled humanoid half. Golden-brown hair and 10-point golden antlers complete its deer-like appearance.

Hinds roam ancient forests far removed from civilization, protecting the forest and the creatures living within with its formidable archery and melee prowess. However, their seclusion does not mean that they know nothing of the outside world. In ages past, before the current pantheons came into power, hinds roamed freely across the planar forests. However, such freedom was not to last. When an evil deity discovered that the blood of a hind could kill a god, he immediately slew his rival, a prominent goddess of light. Outraged, the various gods of good and order came together to divest the evil one of his power. Not one to be humbled by such sniveling weaklings, the foul one called forth his fellow evil deities and abominations to march on the gates of heaven. This act sparked divine war with the side of good losing, succumbing to the power of the hind’s blood. With heavy hearts, the forces of good resolved to destroy the hinds so that their blood could never be used for such evil purposes again.  

The hinds, staying as neutral as possible but not ignorant of the situation, banded together against the gods and their servants. Fierce warriors when provoked, the hinds slew many godlings and finished off a few deities using their knowledge of forests and guerilla tactics to even the playing field. However, even their valiant effort could not match the power of the gods, and the hinds were nearly hunted to extinction. Facing imminent annihilation, the remaining hinds fled to the far corners of the multiverse. Even as they fled, the gods still pursued them, either for their blood or to slaughter them. After all was said and done and the gods destroyed themselves, only a handful remained, the injustice and atrocities they suffered at the hands of the gods forever seared into memory. Having lost everything they’d ever known, the survivors withdrew into forests primeval, the knowledge of their existence fading into eternity.

Combat
Given their history, to say that hinds are untrusting of deities and their servants is an understatement. If such a creature enters a hind’s forest all he can expect is a volley of poisoned arrows and a swift death. However, a hind is at heart a kind and gentle creature and will allow those with no divine connection to pass unmolested if they sacrifice those that channel divine power, should such a being accompany them, even going so far as to offer healing and succor if the rest are injured. Those who refuse can expect the same fate described above.  

Hinds generally observe foreign creatures from hiding, tailing them as long as necessary to discern their true motives and intentions. Those that harm the forest or its inhabitants willfully and maliciously are not long for this world. Druids, rangers, and other adventurers hunting for sustenance are not harmed, as this is the way of nature, but the hind greatly prefers that visitors maintain a vegetarian diet.

All hinds speak Sylvan, Druidic, Celestial, Infernal, and Abyssal.

A hind’s natural weapons and any weapons it wields are treated as epic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Endless Stamina (Ex): A golden hind never needs to make Constitution checks to continue running or to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march, or Fortitude saves made to avoid nonlethal damage from hot or cold environments. In addition, the hind can last a week before suffering the penalties of starvation and thirst.

Divine Resistance (Ex): Due to their history of conflict with the pantheons of old, hinds have developed a resistance to the attacks of deities and their servants, their animosity so powerful it actually manifests as a metaphysical force to ward against divine power. Against gods, a hind has resistance based on divine rank (refer to Table 1-1 Divine Resistance) to any attacks drawing on divine power; versus mortal servants, the hind’s opponent must succeed on a Will save (DC = 10 + ½ hind’s hit dice + hind’s Cha modifier) or their attack fizzles out, as their devotion falters in the face of the hind’s contempt for the gods. Even on a success, the attack is still subject to the divine resistance 20. This resistance has no effect on abilities not directed at the hind itself.

Table 1-1 Divine Resistance
Divine Rank         Divine Resistance
Mortal                  100 (20*)
Quasi-deity          20
Demigods            15
Lesser                 10
Intermediate        5
Greater               -
Over-deity           -

*Only on a successful Will save

Evasion (Ex): A hind can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If it makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, the hind instead takes no damage. A helpless hind does not gain the benefit of evasion.  

Swift Tracker (Ex): A hind can move at its normal speed while following tracks without taking the normal -5 penalty. A hind takes only a -10 penalty (instead of the normal -20) when moving at up to twice normal speed while tracking.  

Favored Enemy (Ex): A hind gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks and a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against deities.  

Poison (Ex): The hind coats its arrows with its own poisonous blood.

Poison          Type              Initial      Secondary  Price             DC to Create  
Hind’s Blood  Injury DC 50  2d8 Con  4d8 Con     2,500,000 gp  N/A

Arguably the deadliest substance in the multiverse, hind’s blood is valued enormously among the handful of assassins and poisoncrafters across the planes that know of its existence. The truth behind its coveted status is its ability to bypass the resistances of creatures normally immune to poison; fiends, undead, even deities are subject to this effect. Deities of lesser status or below are treated no different from mortals; while those of intermediate or higher rank add their divine rank (or cosmic rank, in the case of cosmic entities) to their Fort save. Quasi-deities who fail their save against this poison, in addition to taking damage, have their divine spark snuffed out. Such unfortunates lose all traits and powers associated with godhood, but their divinity may be bestowed upon them again, as per normal.  

Unfortunately for those who wish to utilize this poison to usurp the reins of power, they must first contend with the hind. This is no small feat, since the creature coats its arrows and antlers with its own blood. Hind's blood can only be taken from a still-living hind, any other method results in the substance being completely useless. Naturally this means the beast must first be subdued, a task no one who has lived in the era since the current pantheons came into power has been able to accomplish.  

Nature’s Affinity (Su): No natural, nonevil creature, sylvan creature, or fey will willingly harm a hind. Evil creatures possessing less hit dice than the hind or creatures dominated by an evil creature possessing less hit dice than the hind must make a Will save (DC = 10 + ½ hind’s hit dice + hind’s Cha modifier) or stand transfixed in awe of the hind’s radiant beauty for a number of rounds equal to the hind’s Charisma modifier. Awed creatures cannot take any actions other than defending themselves. However, the awe immediately ends if the hind makes any hostile action towards the subject. In addition, hinds are immune to the spell-like abilities of fey.

Second, a hind may move through any sort of undergrowth (such as natural thorns, briars, overgrown areas, and similar terrain) at its normal speed without taking damage or suffering any other impairment.  

However, thorns, briars, and overgrown areas that are enchanted or magically manipulated to impede motion still affect it.

Also, the hind gains the benefit of the Track Feat automatically, it need not select it.

Trackless Step (Ex): A hind leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. It may choose to leave a trail if so desired.  

Venom Immunity (Ex): A hind’s own blood is much more virulent than other mundane poisons and utterly annihilates any foreign toxins entering its body. As a result, a hind is completely immune to all poisons and venoms.  

Spell-like Abilities: At will – entangle, remove disease, water walk, wood shape; 3/day – ironwood, snare, summon nature’s ally IV; 1/day – greater magic fang. Caster level 25th.

Regeneration (Ex): A hind’s regeneration can only be overcome by weapons that have never been touched by a deity (to include the creation of its base ore).*


----------



## poilbrun

I did not receive it either, so if you spend some time sending it again, I'd be grateful if you included my address in the mailing


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Perchance does one of the divine/cosmic/etc abilities in Ascension allow one to counteract global warming? *pant*


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> (which is the book after Ascension...though forgive me if I don't give a release date at this juncture).



Indeed, why *would* you give release dates anymore. :\


----------



## Kavon

Hey, I feel special - I did get an email! XD


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!



> Hey, I feel special - I did get an email! XD




Bummer!  

I guess the e-mail is cool?


----------



## Pssthpok

Kavon said:
			
		

> Hey, I feel special - I did get an email! XD




Same here.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> That could explain the problem but I didn't see anything on my wife's e-mail.
> 
> It's not as though you don't have plenty to do at this point, but I would greatly appreciate if you could send it as a reply to my e-mail of this morning.
> 
> Sorry to be a pain!




Its basically the same as what I posted on the website but with some bells and whistles about a Discount Coupon for the Immortals Handbook: Grimoire (the process of which I am still looking into) as a thank you to those people who have supported me by pre-ordering Ascension up to this point.

As to why some people got it and some people did not, I don't know. The Customer Mailing service is pretty straightforward.


----------



## Upper_Krust

dante58701 said:
			
		

> If you send the email to my previously noted email address Ill definately get it.




Well, the thing is, I don't plan on sending out an email to everyone individually - because that wouldn't be a good use of my time and I also have no way of knowing exactly who recieved it and who didn't beyond the two or three who have mentioned it herein. Whats more likely is that I will add an addendum to my website.

Regarding the Golden Hind.

First off, the Challenge Rating is way too high.

Also I hate the Divine Resistance modifier because its designed @ss-backwards (why does it punish weaker immortals if its whole _raison d'etre_ is to work against divinity itself. It also is not explained very well (does it work against physical attacks or just supernatural attacks?) and why are Mortals on the table at all - doesn't make sense.

A far simpler way would just be to have the Golden Hind ignore Divine Bonuses (from Divine Rank).

Some other thoughts. It should have (at least) 4 attacks with its bow, almost certainly more. Also there is a feat (whose name currently escapes me) which allows you to use Dexterity for damage instead of Strength. Obviously it should have this for its Bow.

Likewise its bow is rubbish for any being of that magnitude of power. 

If I was recreating it:

- Give it Integrated Druid Abilities equal to 17th-level.
- Make its Bow +11 (with a further +11 worth of special abilities)
- Change Divine Resistance to what I stated above. 
- Design everything around the use of its bow. You could probably min/max it to have 7 or 8 attacks per round.
- DR 15/non-magical
- Regeneration 15
- Spell Resistance 44
- Natural Armour +17, Deflection +10

This version *would* be CR 32 ish, if we give it 4 artifacts instead of just one (maybe add a spear, bracers and a horn of appropriate power?) then it would be CR 42 ish.


----------



## Zoatebix

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> kavon said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, I feel special - I did get an email! XD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same here.
Click to expand...


Add me to that list.


----------



## Rhuarc

Unfortunately didn't get one as well. Would be really cool if you could send it along with the others 

Thanks in advance


----------



## Fieari

The email I got was the same thing that he posted on the website... so if you missed it, that's what he sent.  On the other hand, if you didn't get the email, that probably means you have the wrong email address entered into ENWorld, and should fix that... just my guess, anyway.


----------



## Sledge

UK, I just realized that the product I was supposed to have won way back when is the one that you cancelled, or am I just crazy?


----------



## dante58701

You should recreate the golden hind in one of your books, with all the deities floating around you could give them a real pain in the rump.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Sledge mate! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> UK, I just realized that the product I was supposed to have won way back when is the one that you cancelled, or am I just crazy?




Thats why I decided to give you Vol.2 of the Bestiary (in place of Vol.1.5). Although I suppose I could make it one of the other pdfs if you would prefer? Have you preordered Ascension yet?


----------



## Sledge

Not yet, I'm waiting for my student loans to hit the bank.


----------



## dante58701

volume 1.5? volume 2? Ok Im lost...I know about 1.5...is 2 ascension...and if not...did I miss a volume?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> You should recreate the golden hind in one of your books, with all the deities floating around you could give them a real pain in the rump.




I already have more monsters than will fill 3 Bestiary Volumes so I don't see the need to start lifting other peoples.

Its possible I may have something similar in one of the Immortals Index books (where I plan on including some of the key monsters of a given mythology) perhaps I'll find an elk type monster when I delve into North American mythology.


----------



## paradox42

dante58701 said:
			
		

> volume 1.5? volume 2? Ok Im lost...I know about 1.5...is 2 ascension...and if not...did I miss a volume?



Actually, you're missing that he's referring to the other two volumes of the Epic Bestiary.  Volume 1, after all, ends at G (with the Grigori); there are 19 more letters in the English alphabet for him to go through. Originally U_K predicted he'd release a companion volume to the Bestiary Volume 1, of monsters that didn't quite make the cut to get into it, and originally the Nexus Dragon (among others) was slated to be in Bestiary Volume 1.5. At this point, with the print versions of the Immortal's Handbook series, U_K has his hands full- so no 1.5. But Volumes 2 and 3 of the Bestiary are slated to come after the other three Immortal's Handbook titles (Ascension, Grimoire, and Chronicle, in that order) are released.

Personally I'm just itching to see more Epic monster goodness, and wouldn't mind waiting on Grimoire or Chronicle to see Bestiary Volumes 2 and 3, but that's me. U_K's the author, and it's ultimately his decision.

That said, if the monsters for Volumes 2 and 3 are largely statted up, it may be worth releasing one or both of the remaining Volumes (since the work of actually making the beasts is largely done, all you'd need to do is layout and perhaps art) to generate extra cash while writing up Grimoire and Chronicle, U_K. I don't know your situation of course, but is that at all worth considering? Art, of course, takes a while to make, but with the Mongoose contract you may be able to get some help with that.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
I got your email(s) (I got 2, are they different? I just skimmed over them). I don't mind an extended release date, though an earlier release would have been nice. Thankfully, my PCs are not anywhere near the point in which I would need ascension. 
I also have a question on feat packages - From what I gather, they are groups of feats, under one feat package name, that take up about 6 or so feat slots.  I understand they would help in speeding up character creation, but after character creation, could I still take them (or should I just take the feats?) Also, you mention the possibility of swapping out excessively large numbers of feats for divine or higher abilities. Would I simply just not take a feat for x levels or is this also a deity creation only feature? 
Also, what is your take on undead and divinity. In Deitys and Demigods, they have undead traits listed if you want to have the powers of the undead as a god, but the gods themselves are not undead. Would your system allow for undead deitys, or does one need to be alive to store divine quintessence(sp?)?
Oh, one last (again) question: You outlined your character creation system earlier, and it sounded as if a Deity can only have 2 portfolios. Is this a system rule or only for character creation ease? Many deities in books list half a dozen portfolios (though some are redundant) Just wondering. Good luck with Ascension.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey paradox42 mate! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Actually, you're missing that he's referring to the other two volumes of the Epic Bestiary.  Volume 1, after all, ends at G (with the Grigori); there are 19 more letters in the English alphabet for him to go through. Originally U_K predicted he'd release a companion volume to the Bestiary Volume 1, of monsters that didn't quite make the cut to get into it, and originally the Nexus Dragon (among others) was slated to be in Bestiary Volume 1.5. At this point, with the print versions of the Immortal's Handbook series, U_K has his hands full- so no 1.5. But Volumes 2 and 3 of the Bestiary are slated to come after the other three Immortal's Handbook titles (Ascension, Grimoire, and Chronicle, in that order) are released.




Subsequent Bestiary volumes won't strictly adhere to a continuation of the alphabet, as I will still likely have a few Abominations, Demons, devils, Dragons, Golems etc. in there.

Although expect less dragons/golems and more undead.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Personally I'm just itching to see more Epic monster goodness, and wouldn't mind waiting on Grimoire or Chronicle to see Bestiary Volumes 2 and 3, but that's me. U_K's the author, and it's ultimately his decision.




I think most people want to see Ascension and the Grimoire as soon as possible (If I remember the poll I did a while back). However, I may be able to sneak in a few pages a week on Vol.2 while working on the Grimoire (Monsters are pretty straightforward). So I may have that finished a lot sooner than my usual*.

*Cue so only 6 months after Grimoire jokes.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> That said, if the monsters for Volumes 2 and 3 are largely statted up,




If it was simply a matter of 'statting up' as you put it I could have Volume 2 finished for next week. But stats only represent the design aspect (which comes easy to me), you still have the actual prose and art to attend to.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> it may be worth releasing one or both of the remaining Volumes (since the work of actually making the beasts is largely done, all you'd need to do is layout and perhaps art) to generate extra cash while writing up Grimoire and Chronicle, U_K. I don't know your situation of course, but is that at all worth considering? Art, of course, takes a while to make, but with the Mongoose contract you may be able to get some help with that.




Yeah it sounds good when you say it quick like that, but its a whole different ball game in reality.   

At this point getting help with art (or writing) is not something I can afford to do. Maybe this time next year will be a different story.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey Ltheb dude! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I got your email(s) (I got 2, are they different? I just skimmed over them).




The only difference is the discount voucher comment.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I don't mind an extended release date, though an earlier release would have been nice. Thankfully, my PCs are not anywhere near the point in which I would need ascension.




Thank heavens for small mercies then. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I also have a question on feat packages - From what I gather, they are groups of feats, under one feat package name, that take up about 6 or so feat slots.  I understand they would help in speeding up character creation, but after character creation, could I still take them (or should I just take the feats?)




Its mostly for NPCs, I suspect most PCs will want to better min/max their characters.

But you could still take them.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also, you mention the possibility of swapping out excessively large numbers of feats for divine or higher abilities. Would I simply just not take a feat for x levels or is this also a deity creation only feature?




I don't understand what you mean here?

If you have a character with 40 feats, you may not want to spend all that time picking out so many feats. So instead you could give them 10 feats and 5 divine abilities.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also, what is your take on undead and divinity. In Deitys and Demigods, they have undead traits listed if you want to have the powers of the undead as a god, but the gods themselves are not undead. Would your system allow for undead deitys, or does one need to be alive to store divine quintessence(sp?)?




I see no logical reason why undead cannot be or become deities.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, one last (again) question: You outlined your character creation system earlier, and it sounded as if a Deity can only have 2 portfolios. Is this a system rule or only for character creation ease? Many deities in books list half a dozen portfolios (though some are redundant) Just wondering. Good luck with Ascension.




Its a system rule. Any deity that needs more than two portfolios to get across its message needs a slap. Too many portfolios will just dilute what the god stands for in the eyes of the populace, and as you note, in D&Dg a lot of the portfolios are redundant.

That said, I'll have options for having more than two, but I'll certainly be penalising characters who take them.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I don't understand what you mean here?
> 
> If you have a character with 40 feats, you may not want to spend all that time picking out so many feats. So instead you could give them 10 feats and 5 divine abilities.



What I tried to ask was if a character wanted to use such an option, would he only be able to swap out the feat choices for divine abilities at character creation. I was wondering if/how this works in mid campaign? EX: For some odd reason, lets say Mordred the Blackguard has acumulated 18 levels after a long campaign of vorpal-greatcleaving the Knights of the Round Table. Could he swap his 6 epic feats for say, the Hand of Death salient ability (or soul-sucking-smite or whatnot)? Or would he only have the option of doing a feat to ability conversion at character creation?
I can't see how it could hurt mid-game, as such a character who isnt taking feats for several sessions will probobly lag behind the party for quite some time. So what if a character can swap out 1296 feats for Omnipotence. They won't even get close in 'most' games. (I am sure it will happen)


----------



## poilbrun

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Its a system rule. Any deity that needs more than two portfolios to get across its message needs a slap. Too many portfolios will just dilute what the god stands for in the eyes of the populace, and as you note, in D&Dg a lot of the portfolios are redundant.
> 
> That said, I'll have options for having more than two, but I'll certainly be penalising characters who take them.



Doesn't that preclude very small pantheons? I'm thinking about having only 4 main deities in my campaign world, probably all greater gods, each representing one element, one concept (such as death, life, magic), one natural habitat (forest, sea,...), one race, one "civilization abstract trait" (such as rulership) and one "civilization concrete trait" (such as art, craft,...). Using such a system, would one of these gods be weaker than a greater deity in a world where there would be several gods for water, life, sea, elves, freedom and art?

Another idea that floated in my mind (and in my notes): how would you handle a situation where the mortals would worship several aspect of a god separately? In the example above, the mortals would worship the god of water under a given name and the god of freedom under another name, even though they are the same god?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

I think the limit for 2 portfolios is a more mechanical game balance limit than a flavor limit really. It appears, as from what I read, that having a portfolio grants you a steady stream of powers as your rank increases. (By that I mean You get divine/cosmic/etc powers on your porfolio list at certain divine levels, like class features) A deity with, say 7 porfolios has roughly 7 times the power of say, Captain-burninator the Sun God (Double Fire porfolio). While said sun god may be rank 18, some minor deity  (Rank ~6) with say ~7 portfolios is going to have more powers than that Greater deity. Granted, Some of these power trees probably overlap, nor would said lesser god have as powerful abilities as the Sun god in question. 
The pantheon you describe most likely works perfectly fine if those are the average powers for all the gods, but they will be much more powerful than U_K's rules basis (more powers, possibly higher stats, etc). Perhaps a CR/ECL adjustment would be needed.
Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Okay, I'll reply to the previous posts in a moment but I do want to posit an important question, thats been holding me back a bit.

Basically I need to decide upon six powers one for each of the First Ones that gives them control over their particular dimension.

So, for example 

Time: *Zurvan/Father Time* gains the Transtemporal power which basically means he is beyond time. An opponent with the Slipstream ability cannot be undermined by time travel, but Zurvan still controls the past, present and future and as such would gain triple actions against the opponent. But he couldn't just go back in time and kill the opponent when they were a baby, if you understand.

Okay thats the easy one.

The others are a bit less obvious.

You still have the 

Entropy, Fate/Space (I'm sort of confusing myself whether it should be Space or Fate), Matter, Spirit and Thought

Here are my ideas:

Entropy: Transmortality (aka. True Immortality). This is basically like Cosmic String except that you cannot even be killed by someone more powerful than yourself. You can still be sundered and imprisoned, but you can't be destroyed.

Fate: Evil Eye. Any opponents gain the worst possible dice roll against you in all situations. Opponents with the Inner Eye cosmic ability can ignore this, but they no longer gain the best possible dice rolls for themselves.

Matter: Transmute, Allows you to rearrange matter into any form. Beings with the Plastic Soul cosmic ability would not be automatically converted, but would suffer 50% current hit point damage per round.

Spirit: Transfinite (aka. Supremacy). You can add the power of any single opponent to your own. A character with the Legion cosmic ability can sunder their own spirit into multiple lesser forms (think Dagda).

Thought: Transpose (aka. Rectify) If you make a Will save (against an attack for example) you can simply disbelieve the action ever occurred.

But I am just not happy with most of the above. Particularly matter and thought.

I have about a half dozen other ideas but I am curious to hear other peoples thoughts on the matter - perhaps there is something obvious I am missing.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> What I tried to ask was if a character wanted to use such an option, would he only be able to swap out the feat choices for divine abilities at character creation.




No. But if you want to 'swop' existing feats for divine abilities you need to use a wish.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I was wondering if/how this works in mid campaign? EX: For some odd reason, lets say Mordred the Blackguard has acumulated 18 levels after a long campaign of vorpal-greatcleaving the Knights of the Round Table. Could he swap his 6 epic feats for say, the Hand of Death salient ability (or soul-sucking-smite or whatnot)? Or would he only have the option of doing a feat to ability conversion at character creation?




If you have already used the feat slots to gain feats you need a wish to change them. 

Otherwise you need 6 free feat slots.

You also need to meet the prerequisites for the divine ability.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I can't see how it could hurt mid-game, as such a character who isnt taking feats for several sessions will probobly lag behind the party for quite some time. So what if a character can swap out 1296 feats for Omnipotence. They won't even get close in 'most' games. (I am sure it will happen)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey poilbrun mate! 

...tell Izzy I said bonsoir madame. 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Doesn't that preclude very small pantheons? I'm thinking about having only 4 main deities in my campaign world, probably all greater gods, each representing one element, one concept (such as death, life, magic), one natural habitat (forest, sea,...), one race, one "civilization abstract trait" (such as rulership) and one "civilization concrete trait" (such as art, craft,...). Using such a system, would one of these gods be weaker than a greater deity in a world where there would be several gods for water, life, sea, elves, freedom and art?




They might be fractionally weaker, but the key will be that their portfolios will be diluted.



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Another idea that floated in my mind (and in my notes): how would you handle a situation where the mortals would worship several aspect of a god separately? In the example above, the mortals would worship the god of water under a given name and the god of freedom under another name, even though they are the same god?




This is handled through the god having different Faiths. A Faith is an area where the god is worshipped. That can lead to a lot of interesting roleplaying possibilities.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I think the limit for 2 portfolios is a more mechanical game balance limit than a flavor limit really. It appears, as from what I read, that having a portfolio grants you a steady stream of powers as your rank increases. (By that I mean You get divine/cosmic/etc powers on your porfolio list at certain divine levels, like class features) A deity with, say 7 porfolios has roughly 7 times the power of say, Captain-burninator the Sun God (Double Fire porfolio). While said sun god may be rank 18, some minor deity  (Rank ~6) with say ~7 portfolios is going to have more powers than that Greater deity. Granted, Some of these power trees probably overlap, nor would said lesser god have as powerful abilities as the Sun god in question.
> The pantheon you describe most likely works perfectly fine if those are the average powers for all the gods, but they will be much more powerful than U_K's rules basis (more powers, possibly higher stats, etc). Perhaps a CR/ECL adjustment would be needed.
> Thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.




Think of portfolios like Prestige Classes.

If you are a Greater God with the double Fire Portfolio your control over fire is greater than if you were a greater god with portfolios of Fire and War.

The more portfolios you add the more you dilute their benefits.


----------



## Alzrius

I think that the Transfinite power is going to need a lot of adjudication regarding how long you gain the power for, etc.

The Transmute power seems like it's basically a very powerful _polymorph any object_ ability. The ability to control all physical matter seems like it should be more...well...cosmic, somehow.

Likewise, the Transpose ability may be a bit clunky, depending on how the DC is calculated. I assume it's going to largely be set by the damage dealt? Again, that doesn't seem to fully encapsulate the magnitude of power over sentience.

That said, what I think most of all is that you have sixteen days before this is going to be released to the general public, and that it's better to make a decision and stick with it, even if you have some misgivings, than to let indecision bog you down.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Love 'em all.
Only one that I think could be better would be Entropy's power. When I think of Entropy, I think decay/weakness. Perhaps, instead of true immortality, a true mortality power, that negates opponent's ability to survive. Barring that, swaping Fate's ability with the True Immortality might work.
Or one might give Entropy a Entropic mastery style power - Ex: Every effect is permenent.
Also I think Rectify is a bit over the top. It negates all the other "equivalent" powers. (I reads like you can make a will save vs anything to negate it) It grants a universal benifit vs everything, while the others seem to only affect one area. If it is available to PCs, It seems like a "must have" for anything with a high wisdom. (and/or Inner Eye) The True Immortality power would be another PCs-will-allways-take-this power, virtually ensuring their adventure can continue. (though If my PCs tried this, I may just sic an Elder Quintessence Elemental on em, then have the BBEG kill 'em.


----------



## CRGreathouse

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Spirit: Transfinite (aka. Supremacy). You can add the power of any single opponent to your own. A character with the Legion cosmic ability can sunder their own spirit into multiple lesser forms (think Dagda).




Nice.  Transfinite is strong!


----------



## Anabstercorian

> Entropy: Transmortality (aka. True Immortality). This is basically like Cosmic String except that you cannot even be killed by someone more powerful than yourself. You can still be sundered and imprisoned, but you can't be destroyed.




Balance-wise I can't call heads or tails for this, but thematically, it's perfect.  How can you destroy death?  You cannot throw me in to the abyss, you cannot consign me to oblivion, you cannot scatter me to the farthest reaches or condemn me to the gaping maw of un-existence.  These places are my home, these briar patches are my bread and butter.  You cannot end me.  I die through existence and you cannot end either.



> Fate: Evil Eye. Any opponents gain the worst possible dice roll against you in all situations. Opponents with the Inner Eye cosmic ability can ignore this, but they no longer gain the best possible dice rolls for themselves.




I would say that you could decide exactly what your opponents roll - or your allies, for that matter.  If you ARE the dice, you decide where you land, do you not?

This is probably not well balanced, but it seems more thematic.



> Matter: Transmute, Allows you to rearrange matter into any form. Beings with the Plastic Soul cosmic ability would not be automatically converted, but would suffer 50% current hit point damage per round.




Anyone who's damn fool enough to go up against their own body (for when you face Matter itself in battle, you would be dim-witted not to realize that you are a subset of that set) without extracting themselve from it and in to an immaterial form first deserves anything coming to them.

If this doesn't sound fancy to you, realize that this means you can construct the various divine-equivalent technologies, of any scale, as a standard action.  Do you need to compress someone in to a white-hot sphere of death?  Rebuild the entire universe from the ground up in to an agony engine, with them at the core, and fire it up!  Once they're dead, turn it back, with no one the wiser - though they might have odd dreams for a while.  This is a BIG POWER.  It's totally appropriate for a supernal entity, but maybe TOO much, when you think about it.



> Spirit: Transfinite (aka. Supremacy). You can add the power of any single opponent to your own. A character with the Legion cosmic ability can sunder their own spirit into multiple lesser forms (think Dagda).




Sounds pretty good.  Virtually unstoppable - but only virtually.  All you need is a big enough crowd...



> Thought: Transpose (aka. Rectify) If you make a Will save (against an attack for example) you can simply disbelieve the action ever occurred.




Yeah, that's pretty weak.

Bluntly put, the only force that should be able to effect Thought is an unthinking engine, mechanical and mindless.  Thought should be able to casually eradicate consciousness from it's foes, instill it in to it's allies (perhaps animating objects), and create astounding magical constructs in it's mind effortlessly.  You know that thing the Nexus Dragon does, with the reality alter power with all the spells for free?  Yeah, like that.  But bigger.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius dude! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I think that the Transfinite power is going to need a lot of adjudication regarding how long you gain the power for, etc.




I have this under control (its a very quick mechanic). 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> The Transmute power seems like it's basically a very powerful _polymorph any object_ ability. The ability to control all physical matter seems like it should be more...well...cosmic, somehow.
> 
> Likewise, the Transpose ability may be a bit clunky, depending on how the DC is calculated. I assume it's going to largely be set by the damage dealt? Again, that doesn't seem to fully encapsulate the magnitude of power over sentience.




Exactly. I am just not happy with Transmute or Transpose.

Essentially, with Transcendental powers should put you beyond something.

So Matter should be beyond matter and Thought should be beyond though.

It could be that Matter makes you immune to physical harm, whereas Thought (linked to Chaos) makes you beyond Magic (perhaps like a dead magic aura that doesn't impede your own abilities).



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> That said, what I think most of all is that you have sixteen days before this is going to be released to the general public, and that it's better to make a decision and stick with it, even if you have some misgivings, than to let indecision bog you down.




I know, thats why I brought it to the thread. It has been annoying me for a day or two.

By the way, I should point out that Time Lords gain all six abilities as standard.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Love 'em all.




Thanks matey! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Only one that I think could be better would be Entropy's power. When I think of Entropy, I think decay/weakness. Perhaps, instead of true immortality, a true mortality power, that negates opponent's ability to survive. Barring that, swaping Fate's ability with the True Immortality might work.




I dunno about this.

One option might be to have something like Transdimensional or Transversal  and follow up the Space dimension part instead of Fate.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Or one might give Entropy a Entropic mastery style power - Ex: Every effect is permenent.




I thought of that but I was of the impression that 'it' would already have that power.

One other power was Oblivion, which lets you invest parts of your body to increase damage of attacks/spells.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also I think Rectify is a bit over the top. It negates all the other "equivalent" powers. (I reads like you can make a will save vs anything to negate it) It grants a universal benifit vs everything, while the others seem to only affect one area. If it is available to PCs, It seems like a "must have" for anything with a high wisdom. (and/or Inner Eye)




Agreed. Not happy with Transpose.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The True Immortality power would be another PCs-will-allways-take-this power, virtually ensuring their adventure can continue. (though If my PCs tried this, I may just sic an Elder Quintessence Elemental on em, then have the BBEG kill 'em.




Well like I said you can still be imprisoned or amalgamated. You just can't ultimately be destroyed. So you could still technically remove PCs from play.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey CRGreathouse matey! 



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Nice.  Transfinite is strong!




I'm thinking it would be more a case of adding 'spirit power' aka the Divinity of the opponent.

This will make it incredibly easy to factor.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dude! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Balance-wise I can't call heads or tails for this, but thematically, it's perfect.  How can you destroy death?  You cannot throw me in to the abyss, you cannot consign me to oblivion, you cannot scatter me to the farthest reaches or condemn me to the gaping maw of un-existence.  These places are my home, these briar patches are my bread and butter.  You cannot end me.  I die through existence and you cannot end either.




Glad you like it.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> I would say that you could decide exactly what your opponents roll - or your allies, for that matter.  If you ARE the dice, you decide where you land, do you not?




Yes, but only for beings within range of your divine aura. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> This is probably not well balanced, but it seems more thematic.




Exactly you still have to consider game balance. thats why most of the Transcendental powers have a cosmic defense that stops them from becoming so all-encompassing.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Anyone who's damn fool enough to go up against their own body (for when you face Matter itself in battle, you would be dim-witted not to realize that you are a subset of that set) without extracting themselve from it and in to an immaterial form first deserves anything coming to them.
> 
> If this doesn't sound fancy to you, realize that this means you can construct the various divine-equivalent technologies, of any scale, as a standard action.  Do you need to compress someone in to a white-hot sphere of death?  Rebuild the entire universe from the ground up in to an agony engine, with them at the core, and fire it up!  Once they're dead, turn it back, with no one the wiser - though they might have odd dreams for a while.  This is a BIG POWER.  It's totally appropriate for a supernal entity, but maybe TOO much, when you think about it.




It does need limits, which is why I may change this to physical immunity. You exist beyond matter, rather than you are all matter.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Sounds pretty good.  Virtually unstoppable - but only virtually.  All you need is a big enough crowd...




Indeed.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's pretty weak.




its definately the most problematic power.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Bluntly put, the only force that should be able to effect Thought is an unthinking engine, mechanical and mindless.




Which is why the Pseudonaturals are ultimately opposed by the Inevitables.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Thought should be able to casually eradicate consciousness from it's foes, instill it in to it's allies (perhaps animating objects), and create astounding magical constructs in it's mind effortlessly.  You know that thing the Nexus Dragon does, with the reality alter power with all the spells for free?  Yeah, like that.  But bigger.




All these beings will have Alter Reality anyway. I'm thinking that perhaps Thought should be unaffected by Magic.

In the sense that Magic is bending/shaping reality by your thoughts/will.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  

This has got me thinking of the Infinity Gems.

Perhaps Transpose could make it impossible to willfully harm/manipulate the wielder being that the wielder is beyond thought?

It's a tough one.


----------



## Pssthpok

Thought making you immune to magic is a good idea. I suppose you already have abilities that make you immune to effects that call for specific saves? 
If not, Matter could be immune to Fort save-effects and non-magical damage.
Thought could be immune to Will save-effects and magical damage.
Entropy could be immune to damage but not save-effects, since such a being would be able to control its concentration of energy/heat.
Well, that's my 2 cp. Good luck.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Ah, I misunderstood the thematics.  I was working from the 'controls all' rather than 'beyond' theme.  I'll swing through for another round of ideas in a moment.

Edit: Perhaps a good thing for being 'beyond thought' would make you impossible to describe or perceive - you cannot be contained in the minds of men or their writings.  You have no true name, you have no absolute definition.  It would be a pure and untrumpable occultation.


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Entropy: Transmortality (aka. True Immortality). This is basically like Cosmic String except that you cannot even be killed by someone more powerful than yourself. You can still be sundered and imprisoned, but you can't be destroyed.




This one, I'm a big big fan of.  Since we're not talking about embodying entropy, but rather transcending it, this is perfect I think.  An upgraded superstring.

By the way, on the subject of superstring, you mentioned in this thread that having a weaker being defeat something with superstring would mean that it becomes dormant in some fashion instead of dead.  Are you going to spell that out in Ascention?  And I'd only support this ability here if this condition applied to it as well...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Fate: Evil Eye. Any opponents gain the worst possible dice roll against you in all situations. Opponents with the Inner Eye cosmic ability can ignore this, but they no longer gain the best possible dice rolls for themselves.




The abilities Evil Eye and Inner Eye are fantastic, and even if you don't keep them attributed to fate, I really hope you keep the abilities in general.  I rather like the concept of instead choosing what they roll / what you roll though, which doesn't seem to clunky as most of the time you really will just say "lowest" or "highest".  But choosing the number means flexibility in situations where you want more precice control over situations...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Matter: Transmute, Allows you to rearrange matter into any form. Beings with the Plastic Soul cosmic ability would not be automatically converted, but would suffer 50% current hit point damage per round.




Yeah, this one doesn't work well, being at once too weak and too powerful, and not really trascending matter.  It could work as an ability (not tied to Matter specifically)... but you might want to consider putting limits on it.  Range, duration, saving throws... possibly xp expenditure?

Being immune to HP damage is an interesting concept, although I'm thinking this too might do well with some limits.  I feel like some things that do damage still should... let something get through.  Perhaps umbral (permanent) damage still gets through?  That way, a combination of that and ability damage to constitution could still cause HP death, so that the stat doesn't become meaningless (and thus boring)...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Spirit: Transfinite (aka. Supremacy). You can add the power of any single opponent to your own. A character with the Legion cosmic ability can sunder their own spirit into multiple lesser forms (think Dagda).




Nifty.  Robes of the Almighty anyone?



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Thought: Transpose (aka. Rectify) If you make a Will save (against an attack for example) you can simply disbelieve the action ever occurred.




Heh.  In my games, there's a location where anyone can do this, but of course, usually it's the master of the place that makes use of it.  I have the players make will saves of their own in a "contest of wills" to allow their action to take place.  If the disparity is big enough, I let this ability completely rewrite reality, down to the ability to unmake things.

The only thing that keeps my players from abusing this is knowing that there's someone more powerful out there that can do it to them, and only his good will keeps them from being unwritten.  If the players were given this as a one-way ability, I can't imagine them using anything else.  The entire rest of the game fades away, replaced only by will saves.  I'm not happy with this.  There's gotta be something that keeps this from destroying the entire rest of the game.

That's jsut for if you choose to keep this as an ability at all.  As far as thought goes, probably not the best ability.  I like the immunity to magic concept.  Or perhaps selective immunity to magic?  Or... the ability to convert any spell cast within the divine radius into any other spell of equal level or lower, with any valid target?  Too much?


----------



## paradox42

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Perhaps a good thing for being 'beyond thought' would make you impossible to describe or perceive - you cannot be contained in the minds of men or their writings.  You have no true name, you have no absolute definition.  It would be a pure and untrumpable occultation.



If Algol is supposed to be the Thought master, then this ability is perfect. It's exactly what Azathoth (in Lovecraft's original writings) is supposed to be, and Algol is to be favorably compared with Azathoth, yes? Plus, it's a pretty cool ability in its own right- no Divinations can ever touch you, people forget you were ever there after you're gone, except perhaps for a feeling of vague disquiet with their memory loss, and when you're present their minds literally break under the strain of trying to process your presence.

The ability just needs a name- how about Transconception? In other words, beyond all concept? Too esoteric?


----------



## Anabstercorian

*Transcognizant* - beyond cognition

*Transnominal* - beyond naming

*Transcoherent* - beyond sanity

*Transdefinitive* - Beyond definition

*Translogul* - beyond thoughts and words


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This has got me thinking of the Infinity Gems.




Its a similar sort of predicament.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Perhaps Transpose could make it impossible to willfully harm/manipulate the wielder being that the wielder is beyond thought?
> 
> It's a tough one.




Another idea might be to make the being almost impossible to detect/perceive.

I say almost, because to still operate within a universe you would have to abide by some of its laws.

Perhaps attacks would only have a 1 in 20 chance of affecting the being. Sort of like the Nexus Dragon's interdimensional power cranked up to 95%.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Pssthpok matey! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Thought making you immune to magic is a good idea. I suppose you already have abilities that make you immune to effects that call for specific saves?




I initially called them Transdimensional Fortitude, Reflexes, Will.

But I changed the names to Transilient Fortitude, etc.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> If not, Matter could be immune to Fort save-effects and non-magical damage.




I pondered that.

The six abilities would initially correspond to 3 defensive (based on saves) 3 attacking (based on saves).

Like Matter/Transmute required a Fort save, Spirit meant you were unaffected by Fortitude attacks.

But I wasn't sure if I wanted powers that would juts cancel each other out. Too safe a universe.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Thought could be immune to Will save-effects and magical damage.




I want the powers to be individual abilities, rather than composite abilities.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Entropy could be immune to damage but not save-effects, since such a being would be able to control its concentration of energy/heat.
> Well, that's my 2 cp. Good luck.




I appreciate the feedback guys. Its easy to get stuck and bogged down on points.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dude! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Ah, I misunderstood the thematics.  I was working from the 'controls all' rather than 'beyond' theme.  I'll swing through for another round of ideas in a moment.




Well there is no hard and fast rule. The Transcendental powers are generally set up to take you 'beyond' the norm. 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Edit: Perhaps a good thing for being 'beyond thought' would make you impossible to describe or perceive - you cannot be contained in the minds of men or their writings.  You have no true name, you have no absolute definition.  It would be a pure and untrumpable occultation.




Possibly. That would fit with the Interdimensional notion. Perhaps making Thought 95% divorced from reality when it so chooses.

Although how then to differentiate the 'Matter' power? Perhaps by making it akin to Transdimensional (the Nexus Dragon Power) where you can call upon ever increasing amounts of matter...although I am not totally convinced by that.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> This one, I'm a big big fan of.  Since we're not talking about embodying entropy, but rather transcending it, this is perfect I think.  An upgraded superstring.
> 
> By the way, on the subject of superstring, you mentioned in this thread that having a weaker being defeat something with superstring would mean that it becomes dormant in some fashion instead of dead.  Are you going to spell that out in Ascention?  And I'd only support this ability here if this condition applied to it as well...




Obviously if something can't be beaten 'in any way' then its just irelevant and boring. So even though these beings cannot be permanently killed they can still be temporarily defeated.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> The abilities Evil Eye and Inner Eye are fantastic, and even if you don't keep them attributed to fate, I really hope you keep the abilities in general.




Of course. Most of these were abilities before I tied them to individual beings. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I rather like the concept of instead choosing what they roll / what you roll though, which doesn't seem to clunky as most of the time you really will just say "lowest" or "highest".  But choosing the number means flexibility in situations where you want more precice control over situations...




I agree, its a nice touch.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Yeah, this one doesn't work well, being at once too weak and too powerful, and not really trascending matter.  It could work as an ability (not tied to Matter specifically)... but you might want to consider putting limits on it.  Range, duration, saving throws... possibly xp expenditure?
> 
> Being immune to HP damage is an interesting concept, although I'm thinking this too might do well with some limits.  I feel like some things that do damage still should... let something get through.  Perhaps umbral (permanent) damage still gets through?  That way, a combination of that and ability damage to constitution could still cause HP death, so that the stat doesn't become meaningless (and thus boring)...




Exactly. My Satan/Sin is obviously based upon Tharizdun in a way. So I always harken back to my Gord the Rogue novels when Tharizdun was immune to all weapons except Gord's sword _"Courflamme"_ which was a sword of cosmic balance.

How to convert that into something mechanically feasible is another matter (no pun intended) but I should be able to rustle somethig up.

Possibly *Damage Reduction Infinite/External*.

You can not be harmed by Matter from your universe, only by matter from outside your universe.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Nifty.  Robes of the Almighty anyone?




It will be a slight change from that. More akin to divine power/spirit than all power.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Heh.  In my games, there's a location where anyone can do this, but of course, usually it's the master of the place that makes use of it.  I have the players make will saves of their own in a "contest of wills" to allow their action to take place.  If the disparity is big enough, I let this ability completely rewrite reality, down to the ability to unmake things.
> 
> The only thing that keeps my players from abusing this is knowing that there's someone more powerful out there that can do it to them, and only his good will keeps them from being unwritten.  If the players were given this as a one-way ability, I can't imagine them using anything else.  The entire rest of the game fades away, replaced only by will saves.  I'm not happy with this.  There's gotta be something that keeps this from destroying the entire rest of the game.
> 
> That's jsut for if you choose to keep this as an ability at all.  As far as thought goes, probably not the best ability.




I have a variation on this power which the Lipika have, but its a much better mechanic.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I like the immunity to magic concept.  Or perhaps selective immunity to magic?  Or... the ability to convert any spell cast within the divine radius into any other spell of equal level or lower, with any valid target?  Too much?




The Magic Immunity has potential. Although you sort of have Chaos/Magic/Thought all rolled into one, a bit like having Fate/Life/Space as one. 

Unreality has potential (1 in 20 chance of being affected by anything).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> If Algol is supposed to be the Thought master, then this ability is perfect. It's exactly what Azathoth (in Lovecraft's original writings) is supposed to be, and Algol is to be favorably compared with Azathoth, yes? Plus, it's a pretty cool ability in its own right- no Divinations can ever touch you, people forget you were ever there after you're gone, except perhaps for a feeling of vague disquiet with their memory loss, and when you're present their minds literally break under the strain of trying to process your presence.
> 
> The ability just needs a name- how about Transconception? In other words, beyond all concept? Too esoteric?




Algol is sort of Azothoth, but I see it more as the gateway to the Far Realm rather than the Far Realm itself.

Algol would be the Old One who embodies Limbo. Limbo would be the Outer Plane where the borders to the Far Realm were weakest.

...if any of that makes sense?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Possibly Damage Reduction Infinite/External.
> 
> You can not be harmed by Matter from your universe, only by matter from outside your universe.




That's pretty cool.


----------



## Fieari

Don't forget that DR doesn't work against spells or supernatural abilities...


----------



## Alzrius

Fieari said:
			
		

> Don't forget that DR doesn't work against spells or supernatural abilities...




It doesn't even work against energy damage. Someone with just that level of damage reduction could still be hurt by flaming oil unless they have some other form of protection.


----------



## Fieari

An alternative might be Regeneration Infinite/External...


----------



## historian

> It doesn't even work against energy damage. Someone with just that level of damage reduction could still be hurt by flaming oil unless they have some other form of protection.




Don't you love d20.

As to the specific adjudication of the power it would likely be better served by manking it damage reduction + energy resistance (Infinite/Extradimensional) as well.  The power's bearer is the Father of all Elementals after all.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

historian said:
			
		

> Don't you love d20.



Indeed, the complexity is both a boon and a burden.
Instead of damage reduction / energy resistance, you could just say it is invulnerable within its own universe (vs spell effects) and immune to all damage (from melee combatents) from this universe. I would imagine with out the proper ability/powerkey/whatnot a mage from dimention 1 casting spells while in dimention 2 would have to follow all the 'rules' for casting in that universe, and thus his magic would draw from that universe's power, making said creature immune.
But then you are classifying spell effects as matter, and that leads to a minor conundrum - Can I disintigrate a fireball? It says 10' cube of matter right?
Perhaps the ability should read simply (since you are a primal entity of matter and all) "That you are completely immune to all physical damage originating from your home universe or from creatures that originated there."
EDIT: What about anti-matter?


----------



## dante58701

Abiding, what is it?

I just had to ask cuz that was the Night Dragons ability.

What does it do, how does it function. What benefits does it bestow.


----------



## dante58701

Amidah Akalich Awakened Orichalcum Golem

Step One...Craft Orichalcum Golem

Step Two...Awaken Orichalcum Golem

Step Three...Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes an Amidah

Step Four...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem uses it's wish ability to leave it's physical form and possess another physical form that is more organic.

Step Five...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes a lich.

Step Six...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes a Demilich

Step Seven...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes an Akalich

Step Eight...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem possesses it's original body.

Step Nine...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem uses it's wish ability to reclaim it's original body permanantly.

Drawbacks...Loses incorporeality.


Final typing...Amidah Akalich Awakened Orichalcum Golem (Construct (Augmented [Undead], Evil, Extraplanar))


----------



## Pssthpok

To what end do you do these things? You cannot possiblly have a reasonable niche for such a thing in your campaign.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> It doesn't even work against energy damage. Someone with just that level of damage reduction could still be hurt by flaming oil unless they have some other form of protection.




Actually immortals are all immune to natural 'effects'.

So an immortal could exist in space or at the centre of the sun and would be unaffected by an animal's poisonous bite. But could still be affected by magical fire or a medusa's (supernatural creature) poisonous bite.

So an immortal could drink flaming oil with no adverse affect. 

Sidereals kick that up a notch in that they are unaffected by non-epic magic or effects.

By the way I just have a few paragraphs I need to tweak and I will send you the first stuff. Too late tonight but definately sometime tomorrow.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante dude! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Abiding, what is it?
> 
> I just had to ask cuz that was the Night Dragons ability.
> 
> What does it do, how does it function. What benefits does it bestow.




Abiding is the same as permanent damage. The term is a hangover from an old nomenclature I used for one of the cosmic powers...*Abiding [Effect]*.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Amidah Akalich Awakened Orichalcum Golem
> 
> Step One...Craft Orichalcum Golem
> 
> Step Two...Awaken Orichalcum Golem
> 
> Step Three...Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes an Amidah
> 
> Step Four...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem uses it's wish ability to leave it's physical form and possess another physical form that is more organic.
> 
> Step Five...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes a lich.
> 
> Step Six...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes a Demilich
> 
> Step Seven...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem becomes an Akalich
> 
> Step Eight...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem possesses it's original body.
> 
> Step Nine...Amidah Awakened Orichalcum Golem uses it's wish ability to reclaim it's original body permanantly.
> 
> Drawbacks...Loses incorporeality.
> 
> Final typing...Amidah Akalich Awakened Orichalcum Golem (Construct (Augmented [Undead], Evil, Extraplanar))




I hate to think what you will do with the Anti-Matter Creature, Awim (Half-Dragon Abomination), Cimerial (King Wight), Lha (Teacher), Gamaliel (Unclean One) Templates in the Epic Bestiary: Volume 2.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I hate to think what you will do with the Anti-Matter Creature, Awim (Half-Dragon Abomination), Cimerial (King Wight), Lha (Teacher), Gamaliel (Unclean One) Templates in the Epic Bestiary: Volume 2.



As long as you can still use the Macrobe template with those...


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Just a quick question. (It may have been answered much earlier, but I dont remember seeing it) An Immortal is limited to 4 artifacts at once (possibly more, but with downgraded powerlevels) does this mean the Immortal can have/wield/use 4 artifacts or that he or she can create 4? Is there anything preventing a deity from having 5+ artifacts at once (possibly creating some/all of them himself) but leaving some 'at home' or simply keeping them on his person but not used? (Like keeping a magic sword at your side, or having a ring of total-damage-reflection in your pocket while your wear your four rings of Omni-death)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Just a quick question. (It may have been answered much earlier, but I dont remember seeing it) An Immortal is limited to 4 artifacts at once (possibly more, but with downgraded powerlevels) does this mean the Immortal can have/wield/use 4 artifacts or that he or she can create 4? Is there anything preventing a deity from having 5+ artifacts at once (possibly creating some/all of them himself) but leaving some 'at home' or simply keeping them on his person but not used? (Like keeping a magic sword at your side, or having a ring of total-damage-reflection in your pocket while your wear your four rings of Omni-death)




Its an interesting question and one with no easy answer.

If Thor (in possession of 4 artifacts) slays Odin (who also has four artifacts), can Thor not just lift Odin's artifacts and use them? Or can he use 2 of Odins artifacts and 2 of his own?

My take on it is this:

Using someone else's artifacts is limited by your portfolios and/or alignment, because artifacts are an extension of the deity.

These need to be compatible otherwise in your hands the artifact will 

A) allow you to wield it but only at your power level.
B) allow you to wield it but only act as a non-epic item.
C) not allow you to wield it.
D) not allow you to wield it and injure you if you try to do so.

So you can see how the deviations are set up.

Possible 2 portfolios, possible 2 alignments.

Incidently, mortals get by the lack of portfolios by using the artifact for a special purpose.

So say a Priest of Orcus is lent the Wand of Orcus. While in his possession its treated as a non-epic item (drop two steps to B since the priest has no portfolios). But if the Priets uses the artifact for the specific purpose of advancing the gods portfolios he could gain its full power for a limited space of time.

Does that make sense, what do you all think of that mechanic?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Does that make sense, what do you all think of that mechanic?




I like it a lot, but I see PC's trying to abuse the system by arguing that what they're doing advances a deity's cause, even though it doesn't really. A lot of DM smack-downs will be the result.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Awesome.
Do the artifacts in question need to be directly related with the gods portfolios? Or simply loosly related? My namesake mage is probobly going to take either Double Revenge, Double Magic, or Revenge/Magic portfolios (Being the angry, spiteful archwizard that he is) (His whole family was killed permenently. Twice. Spent the whole game seeking revenge). If I had double revenge, could I still make say 3 spellcasting related items, and one defensive item. I planned on Headband/crown (Int increasing), Ring (Enhancing spellcasting in some way), Staff (With Supremacy power if I Qualify, or the biggest Divine Blast power I can get), and a Robe (Possibly like something that grants a flat unmitigatable miss change).
Is this too far out of guidelines?


----------



## Chosen01

hi Krust  



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have about a half dozen other ideas...



What are the alternatives?



> Fate/Space (I'm sort of confusing myself whether it should be Space or Fate)



What Transcendental power would the First One of Space have?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I like it a lot, but I see PC's trying to abuse the system by arguing that what they're doing advances a deity's cause, even though it doesn't really. A lot of DM smack-downs will be the result.




You could easily tie it to the opposed portfolios I have set up. So you might get the full power of the artifact against creatures with certain subtypes.

Incidently I should just point out that I think my website is down, I don't know if its the webspace provider switching me off again or not.   

I posted them the cheque in June, so something must have happened to it in transit (which is actually the second time I have sent them a cheque and its not been received).

To compound the problem the company have not emailed me in 9 months. So I don't know what the heck is going on.

So I may have to sort out another webspace provider, which is a hassle I didn't need at the moment.   

Does anyone know any relatively inexpensive webhosts? Preferably (but not necessarily) UK based, posting cheques to America is just an annoyance because you have to pay for the conversion extra postage and it takes far longer. It would also be a plus if I could find one that could be sorted via paypal.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dude! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Awesome.
> Do the artifacts in question need to be directly related with the gods portfolios? Or simply loosly related?




They only need be superficially related.

Provided they are not overtly affiliated to opposed portfolios. For instance Thor couldn't have an icy blast hammer (since he has the Thunder and Strength portfolios).

I mean I don't think you need to have the Strength portfolio to have a belt of strength artifact for instance. But it wouldn't make sense if you were the god of fear/weakness.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> My namesake mage is probobly going to take either Double Revenge, Double Magic, or Revenge/Magic portfolios (Being the angry, spiteful archwizard that he is) (His whole family was killed permenently. Twice. Spent the whole game seeking revenge). If I had double revenge, could I still make say 3 spellcasting related items, and one defensive item. I planned on Headband/crown (Int increasing), Ring (Enhancing spellcasting in some way), Staff (With Supremacy power if I Qualify, or the biggest Divine Blast power I can get), and a Robe (Possibly like something that grants a flat unmitigatable miss change).
> Is this too far out of guidelines?




No I don't think so. I don't see any penalties for generic powers.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Chosen01 said:
			
		

> hi Krust




Hiya mate! 



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> What are the alternatives?




Most of them I think were already mentioned.



			
				Chosen01 said:
			
		

> What Transcendental power would the First One of Space have?




Transdimensional - keeps growing from the start of a fight.

Transversal - infinite reach


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Transdimensional - keeps growing from the start of a fight.




I had been meaning to ask you about this one ever since I began testing the Nexus Dragon.  Once it starts shifting size categories (effectively doubling hit dice each round) would it also receive "non-size" bonuses as well, i.e. better saves, higher DCs for abilities, etc.?


----------



## Alzrius

I just received chapter two of _Ascension_ for editing about an hour ago. 

I gotta say, like a lot of people, I get frustrated when it takes U_K a while to release something - but everytime I look his work over, it gives me a rush of sympathy for him. It's easy to forget that he's really pushing the envelope on what the d20 system can do, and he's making it all up as he goes along by himself. When you really stop and think about that, it's amazing he gets these done as fast as he does.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hey historian matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I had been meaning to ask you about this one ever since I began testing the Nexus Dragon.  Once it starts shifting size categories (effectively doubling hit dice each round) would it also receive "non-size" bonuses as well, i.e. better saves, higher DCs for abilities, etc.?




Whichever works best for you. 

Though personally I wouldn't necessarily double its Hit Dice, I'd just add a virtual size category since its more of a 'virtual'* size change.

*Or at least surreal.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Whichever works best for you.
> 
> Though personally I wouldn't necessarily double its Hit Dice, I'd just add a virtual size category since its more of a 'virtual'* size change.
> 
> *Or at least surreal.




Whoops.  

Thanks, only 10 days away.  Good luck on the home stretch!


----------



## Rockhoward56

*yoooooooo*

very good news 
can't wait for this stuff 
Surtur preview release is near ?
impressive transcendental abilities!
i' have a question for you U_K (as always): what's exactly are the mazzaroth?
Are they Timelords? very powerful? weak?


----------



## Edheldur

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Does anyone know any relatively inexpensive webhosts? Preferably (but not necessarily) UK based, posting cheques to America is just an annoyance because you have to pay for the conversion extra postage and it takes far longer. It would also be a plus if I could find one that could be sorted via paypal.



Depending on how you define "relatively inexpensive" webhosts, I would recommend www.lunarpages.com. I've got two sites hosted there, and haven't had a problem, plus they accept paypal.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Rockhoward dude! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> very good news
> can't wait for this stuff




I appreciate the support guys! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Surtur preview release is near ?
> impressive transcendental abilities!




Well one thing at a time. Surtur is in the Appendix. The Chapters are going to be finished in the following order:

2, 1, 4, 3, Appendix.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> i' have a question for you U_K (as always): what's exactly are the mazzaroth? Are they Timelords? very powerful? weak?




The Mazzaroth (Spectrals) are beings who police the 9th Dimension. The 9th Dimension is like a big diamond/mirrored wall made of the densest possible matter. Beings that venture too close beome stuck to it. Those with infinite strength who won't be stuck, will find the mazzaroth barring their path. Anyone trying to enter the 10th dimension (where the Supreme Being lives) has to fight 12 Mazzaroth (one at a time). Each mazzaroth has the exact same powers/items as the antagonist (although all have infinite strength obviously). The 12 Mazzaroth bear the likenesses of the zodiacal beings.

So no matter how tough you are, you only have a 1 in 4096 chance of penetrating the Great Wall (9th Dimension).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey there Edhelhur! 



			
				Edheldur said:
			
		

> Depending on how you define "relatively inexpensive" webhosts, I would recommend www.lunarpages.com. I've got two sites hosted there, and haven't had a problem, plus they accept paypal.




Thanks very much. That could prove to be a godsend, although my website seems to have been switched back on for the moment.

The website in the link seems to offer a basic package that is $1/month more expensive than my current package but offers 100 times more webspace.

...and that Paypal thing could be a lifesaver.

So if I get any more grief I'll probably switch over.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*yop*

Thank you Uk as always!  
The Spectrals are terrific!
Even a extrapowerful High Lord could not enter in the 10th Dimension!
Have you errated the CR of the nexus dragon or not?
In one of your adventure idea , you talk about the missing heads of the Void dragons, could a Void Dragon regain or "acquire his head"? Would it be more powerful?
Transcendental powers are cool , omnific powers would be very great too 

The most powerfuls beings know are: 1) Supreme Beings 2)High Lords  & Spectrals 3) Time Lords?


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> The Mazzaroth (Spectrals) are beings who police the 9th Dimension. The 9th Dimension is like a big diamond/mirrored wall made of the densest possible matter. Beings that venture too close beome stuck to it. Those with infinite strength who won't be stuck, will find the mazzaroth barring their path. Anyone trying to enter the 10th dimension (where the Supreme Being lives) has to fight 12 Mazzaroth (one at a time). Each mazzaroth has the exact same powers/items as the antagonist (although all have infinite strength obviously). The 12 Mazzaroth bear the likenesses of the zodiacal beings.
> 
> So no matter how tough you are, you only have a 1 in 4096 chance of penetrating the Great Wall (9th Dimension).




How you dream this stuff up I'll never know.  It's awesome.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Thanks for the Info! 
Unless the Mazzaroth get numerous bonuses/powers across the board, the easiest way to win would be to give a commoner Infinite Strength and Dexterity, (probobly easier said than done) and send him in. He has just as much chance of winning as anyone else. (.02% )
Historian!
I think this question is best left unanswered.  He seems to get alot from biblical mythology and other assorted religeous texts. (the names anyway) 
As for the nexus dragon - It doesnt specifically say it gets more Hit Dice each virtual size increase, but it does get more Strength, con, and natural AC. At best it would give the dragon a limited fast healing effect, but Its HP would stay mostly the same. (Though, since it can cast any kind of epic spell it wants in any round, it would probobly just cast a contingent full-heal+ressurection on itself round one, and recast it after it goes off. ) 
The epic spellcasting abilities of the dragon, I think, are its most dangerous quality, since it allows it to defeat any attack that its potent defences don't allready counter.
A Great Wyrm Nexus Dragon would make a great mount.  (For a level 30000 Paladin anyway)
EDIT: U_K! Your website still works for me. Maybe you just can't acess it...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Thank you Uk as always!




My pleasure mate ! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> The Spectrals are terrific!
> Even a extrapowerful High Lord could not enter in the 10th Dimension!




Indeed.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Have you errated the CR of the nexus dragon or not?




I didn't touch it for the Print Bestiary, simply because I wasn't sure one way or the other. When I work it out I'll let you know.

Technically if you use the Ascension progression in the book instead of just Character Levels (etc.) then the Nexus Dragon is right and the Neutronium Golem is wrong. Simply because if everyone is gaining divine, cosmic and transcendental powers as they ascend then it all evens out.

The problem is the effect of things like Transcendental Powers upon ECL.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> In one of your adventure idea , you talk about the missing heads of the Void dragons,




Yes I thought that was a cool adventure idea. An alabaster plane with void black heads growing like trees.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> could a Void Dragon regain or "acquire his head"? Would it be more powerful?




Maybe. Or it might start to eat itself.



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Transcendental powers are cool , omnific powers would be very great too




You mean for Void Dragon heads? Or just in general? Or as previews? 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> The most powerfuls beings know are: 1) Supreme Beings 2)High Lords  & Spectrals 3) Time Lords?




Well technically I list half a dozen other types of Eternal encounters in the book like Transelementals. In fact I generally list about half a dozen creatures of each divine class. Some from the IH Bestiary (naturally), but some others that will be new to you, just monster ideas at this point, but I always like teasing a few things.   

I also mention some beings beyond the Akashic Records, but you'll just have to wait to read about them.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> How you dream this stuff up I'll never know.  It's awesome.




Hey why do you think it takes me so long.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I also mention some beings beyond the Akashic Records, but you'll just have to wait to read about them.




That section was as apropos as it was unexpected. Truly top-notch stuff.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*yop*

ohohohohoho!
beings beyond the akashic records?miam miam!  
Is it the supreme Being the most powerful "monster" or not lol?
Keep working , good luck


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

As for things more powerful than the Supreme Being... 
I am sure if you apply the Swarm/Mob template to him/her/it, you create a creature that could well represent the entire combined firepower of all Lipika fighting in unison. (Actually said templates don't add much, as such a being is still limited to 2* actions a round) (*Or more with  powers like Omni-haste or similar crazyness that U_K no doubt has in store for us) 
Wanna know a secret? The Ultimate monster is actually Meepo, kobold champion. He simply feigns weakness as part of a scheme to keep the universe in balance.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
This one is a doozy. (Is that a real word?)
I checked your site, but couldn't find any information on something. (That sounds vague, doesn't it?) In one of your much older posts, you had mentioned that a Black Hole Golem would just be an up scaled version of a Neutronium golem. (More HD, Str, a few more powers maybe like a vortex power) Your later bestiaries don’t list it as one of the upcoming monsters, but I know they are far from a complete list. Any possibility of it appearing in a later book? 
When Ascension comes out, Aside from reading it and updating any applicable characters, I wont be using probably for another ~6 sessions (party isnt high enough level to even hint at things beyond the monster manual  ) So I was thinking, since it has a whole lots of powers and feats, as well as immortal cosmology information that might prove relevant, that horrors like the Black Hole Golem would be 'fun*' to stat out. (*by fun I mean an exercise in self-inducing aneurysms ) Though you may have already done so / plan to do so.
I hope that by the time Chronicle comes out (Late 3006? ) that you have worked out some form of a personal forum on your site. I think the idea of a "Immortal's Repository" of fan-made stuff would be cool. 
I did previously stat such a golem, but it was just a neutronium golem with enhanced damage output. (Yes that is possible, sadly.) Perhaps a later version may actually be strong enough to wound a High Lord. (I guess it would depend on the High Lord)
I hope things get sorted out in time. Alzrius' off the cuff review says you are doing well.
Oh, one thing I didn't yet ask in one of my long-winded posts: Did you ever decide on a font for the Titles? That old font you used was a bit hard to read at first, so the issue of changing it came up. I don't recall how it was resolved.


----------



## GQuail

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, one thing I didn't yet ask in one of my long-winded posts: Did you ever decide on a font for the Titles? That old font you used was a bit hard to read at first, so the issue of changing it came up. I don't recall how it was resolved.




Yeah, with the great ENWorld crash, al those posts got wiped off the servers.  :-(  

Still, if you look at the previews of the cover on ENWorld & the table of contents, the headers are clearly not in the original font, but rather a psuedo Charles Rennie Mackintosh one.  (As we like to all it in Glasgow, Mockintosh.  ;-) )  Since the old font was used in those places on the Bestiary, I would assume that means it'll be perpetuated throughout.

I'm curious as to if this Mockintosh font was used on the print version of the Bestiary or if it retains the original look.  I recall U_K saying he had problems changing the fonts wholescale in the document, and had to do it manually: that would perhaps be part of the reason we're still waiting on Ascension, eh?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey Ltheb mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> This one is a doozy. (Is that a real word?)
> I checked your site, but couldn't find any information on something. (That sounds vague, doesn't it?) In one of your much older posts, you had mentioned that a Black Hole Golem would just be an up scaled version of a Neutronium golem. (More HD, Str, a few more powers maybe like a vortex power) Your later bestiaries don’t list it as one of the upcoming monsters, but I know they are far from a complete list. Any possibility of it appearing in a later book?




I don't plan on having it in either Bestiary Volume 2 or 3. Maybe it will show up in another book, I don't know. I do have the Black Hole Dragon in Volume 3, and I don't really like overdoing monsters with the same 'substance'.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> When Ascension comes out, Aside from reading it and updating any applicable characters, I wont be using probably for another ~6 sessions (party isnt high enough level to even hint at things beyond the monster manual  ) So I was thinking, since it has a whole lots of powers and feats, as well as immortal cosmology information that might prove relevant, that horrors like the Black Hole Golem would be 'fun*' to stat out. (*by fun I mean an exercise in self-inducing aneurysms ) Though you may have already done so / plan to do so.




I'll consider it. I don't really see the Black Hole Golem as vastly different from the Neutronium Golem. I also don't see any pressing need for monsters that powerful. So if I am going to detail one (super-duper monster) per Bestiary I want to make them as different as possible.

I know other companies would probably milk the idea better, but thats just me.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I hope that by the time Chronicle comes out (Late 3006? ) that you have worked out some form of a personal forum on your site. I think the idea of a "Immortal's Repository" of fan-made stuff would be cool.




Well I think the Forum idea is one that will happen after I start getting paid for the print versions and actually have some money in my pocket.

Personally I am not convinced I really need a Message Board myself, since ENWorld and Dicefreaks would ultimately have more traffic. But I do like the idea of a message board for the purpose of collecting and collating fan-made stuff, as you say.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I did previously stat such a golem, but it was just a neutronium golem with enhanced damage output. (Yes that is possible, sadly.) Perhaps a later version may actually be strong enough to wound a High Lord. (I guess it would depend on the High Lord).




I wouldn't worry about it. In fact I am wondering why you are concerned with beings that powerful given your players haven't even gotten to the epic levels yet. Are you just another one of these guys out to bust my chops?  



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I hope things get sorted out in time. Alzrius' off the cuff review says you are doing well.




Well it is early days. I'll be sending him Chapter 1 over the weekend. But thats going to leave me 5 days to finish off Chapters 3, 4 and the Appendix. It basically ain't gonna happen. So although I'll be releasing it on the 11th, I won't have all the text completed, certainly the Appendix won't be there. At best I'll have Chapters 1-4 done and thats likely to be without sleep between now and then.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, one thing I didn't yet ask in one of my long-winded posts: Did you ever decide on a font for the Titles? That old font you used was a bit hard to read at first, so the issue of changing it came up. I don't recall how it was resolved.




Yes its a different header font (called Dyer) now. I don't know if Alzrius likes it or not?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail mate! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Yeah, with the great ENWorld crash, al those posts got wiped off the servers.  :-(
> 
> Still, if you look at the previews of the cover on ENWorld & the table of contents, the headers are clearly not in the original font, but rather a psuedo Charles Rennie Mackintosh one.  (As we like to all it in Glasgow, Mockintosh.  ;-) )  Since the old font was used in those places on the Bestiary, I would assume that means it'll be perpetuated throughout.




Yes.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to if this Mockintosh font was used on the print version of the Bestiary or if it retains the original look.  I recall U_K saying he had problems changing the fonts wholescale in the document, and had to do it manually: that would perhaps be part of the reason we're still waiting on Ascension, eh?




The print version of the Bestiary (with the Black cover) is now in line with the new Ascension book in terms of layout and fonts. So the font used on the front cover (Dyer) is the header font inside the book.

I did have problems changing the font wholesale initially. But that was a corrupted file. Luckily I save things at different stages along the way, so it was just a matter of going back to a previous save.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I wouldn't worry about it. In fact I am wondering why you are concerned with beings that powerful given your players haven't even gotten to the epic levels yet. Are you just another one of these guys out to bust my chops?



Heh. I get bored quite easily, and stating up super-rediculous monsters every now-and-then, even if half of them will never be used, is kind of interesting. (And the Macrobe Template, applied to the ELH's Umbral Blot is really sick. If it doesnt eat a planet, it instantly can suck its atmosphere away )
I tend to run two kinds of games, low-level/low-magic in a generic Dark-ages-esqe setting with higher realism, and High level / Epic level campaines set in Faerun/Grayhawk (I don't like Ebberon much, despite the hype)
I had only one game so far that encompassed both types as above. It was Forgotton Realms, and went from 6th to really epic. (If I recall correctly, the highest level characters from the original game were level ~44. One was the Magister, and two became gods.) The last fifth of the campaine I ran a psudo-update of Throne of Bloodstone.
Ahh, random encounters including 1d1000 Balors, or the humorous listing of "random deity" in the encounter tables (It was rolled. The Pcs fought Lloth. Fun stuff)
My current game plans on reaching ~30th. (I threw all the adventures together myself, and I have enough XP for three people to reach 40th, but my group members vary in number and play skill, so I figure ~25-30 as the ending range)
They may become gods at some point, or at least aquire an artifact or something. (This sounds vague and silly, but one of my players reads this so I try not to spoil things  I do have all these things planned) So Ascension has just what I need. Even if the next book was meant for creating artifacts, If I slap a Divine ability on an item and 0-3 associated magic powers, It looks quite nice.
So, umm, yea  (Looks up at another rant) Well, in short, Ascension is a must for solving logistics problems, and The best use for a Neutronium Golem / Black Hole Golem is to remind players that if they play something silly for the purpose of disrupting the game, one may just show up. (A sentient one at that, with spring attack, so it streaks down, massacres them, and bolts away before anyone is the wiser) (Sadly this sort of thing happens alot during character creation. "Can I play an awakened cactus monk?". All I have to say is ''N.G." and they know the consequence of playing the awakened cactus monk)
I hope Ascension goes well. Even it it is only chapters 1-3, with the possibility of 4, I wont mind. As much as the powergamer in me wants to deny it, its the cosmology / metaphysical write ups I like. Chapter 4 might be the meat-and-bones of what the game needs, but I venture to guess Chapters 1-3 have plenty of good stuff too.


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Yes its a different header font (called Dyer) now. I don't know if Alzrius likes it or not?




I do indeed like it. I think it still captures the feel of the original font used, while still being much more legible.

Also, U_K, bear in mind that I'm headed to Gen Con, so from mid-afternoon (my time) Wednesday, August 9th through Monday, August 14th, I'll be out of touch.


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Big (Bad) News!*

Hey all!   

Okay, I just updated my website. But just to tell you the bad news. The publisher informed me that the Distributors don't like the current Bestiary Cover. So they want something a bit more standard fare, big full cover illustration and so forth.

Basically I have to redo the cover bigger and better.

Between now (4th) and the 11th of August I'll still be working on the Ascension pdf. It will still be released on the 11th. However, the first planned update after that (the 21st) may well be impacted.

I should have the text of three chapters finished by the 11th August, maybe 4 chapters (borderline). 

The second update (the 21st) I probably could have had all the text done. 

However, I may need to pull this Ascension cover out of the bag sharpish. Then again I may not. I'll not know exactly what the new schedule is for a couple of days.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Alzrius mate! 



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> I do indeed like it. I think it still captures the feel of the original font used, while still being much more legible.




I agree, its legible but still funky.



			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> Also, U_K, bear in mind that I'm headed to Gen Con, so from mid-afternoon (my time) Wednesday, August 9th through Monday, August 14th, I'll be out of touch.




Thats okay mate, if anything goes wrong while you're away I know who to blame. 

...oh, and have fun!


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The publisher informed me that the Distributors don't like the current Bestiary Cover. So they want something a bit more standard fare, big full cover illustration and so forth.




You think Mongoose would just be willing to fork over the dough to pay someone else to do a cover, instead of dumping that responsibility on you.  



> Thats okay mate, if anything goes wrong while you're away I know who to blame.




Story of my life. 



> _...oh, and have fun! _




It's Gen Con my friend, that goes without saying.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Geez, can't catch a break with the bestiary can you?
I can understand their concerns about the cover though. I took a couple classes in printing and I know that if you are forking out the money to have a full color cover, you better have a lot of colors and a large image, because running and troubleshooting such a large press just wouldn't seem logical for a mostly-black (or white) cover.
I actually prefer the black (Or white) cover idea myself, as it gives the work a more dignified look rather than "we are just advertising." Though the illustration is very nice. Seraphim for the win! ( I feel bad for the Amilictli though, he never had a chance. And the Tarrasque cowering in the corner is priceless)
It is kind of lame of them to keep throwing it back to you, instead of reviewing it once and then showing you all the corrections so it can be done in one batch.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Basically I have to redo the cover bigger and better.




Hmm. Well, they pay the bills, so if they want a bigger cover, they get a bigger cover.  

A lot of what's sold the Immortals Handbook on ENWorld is the years of banter on the topic here.  I guess they might feel that to people who haven't heard of it you need a more stand-out cover to get their attention.  <shrugs>  Ours is not to reason why.




			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The second update (the 21st) I probably could have had all the text done.
> 
> However, I may need to pull this Ascension cover out of the bag sharpish. Then again I may not. I'll not know exactly what the new schedule is for a couple of days.




Well, I'm sure if people get something on the predetermined date it will give them something to chew on whilst you go do arty duties.  If later updates are later than expected, I'm sure people will appreciate the hassle re: the Bestiary print edition has been a part of a lot of this.

Still, it does make me wonder: is it worth looking at getting someone else to take over art duties on this project?  Every day you spend on a picture is a day you could be spending on the actual rules, an d if the Bestiary is just the first of many print versions of products it looks like we can only see the same situation repeating again and again, as demands on the new PDF and new book will always clash.  Whilst I don't dislike the art in the IH as it stands, and appreciate that you are a one-man band to some extent :> I do think that splitting off some of the art duties might be a good way to recoup some time.

Yes, this does mean getting someone else involved, and the hilarious money-splitting issues that arise.  It's not a perfect idea: just an idea.  ;-)

I'm still looking forward to Ascension, for what it's worth.  But I don't think my 10th level D&D party are.  ;-)


----------



## Cheiromancer

I don't think the distributors should be able to dictate artistic decisions to you.  What next- are they going to complain that the CRs of the monsters are too high?  sheesh.

Go with what you have, that's what I say.


----------



## GQuail

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I don't think the distributors should be able to dictate artistic decisions to you.  What next- are they going to complain that the CRs of the monsters are too high?  sheesh.
> 
> Go with what you have, that's what I say.




To be fair, I don't think it's unfair for distributors to raise some comments, especially about the front cover: which has an undeniable influence on sales, and thusly, the money they see back.  Consider also that whilst the imprint is new, I imagine some of the staff running it are RPG hacks, who may feel they have some insights into what sells better than U_K: who, a prodigy though he is, is thus far an /unprinted/ prodigy.  ;-)

George Q


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail mate! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Hmm. Well, they pay the bills, so if they want a bigger cover, they get a bigger cover.




Exactly. I totally don't mind having to redo the cover if thats what the distributors want.

The main problem for me is that setting the release back means setting back when I get paid by a large margin (3 months, due to quarterly payments). Given that I am basically living on borrowed time as it is financially speaking, the setback is going to cause me major problems.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> A lot of what's sold the Immortals Handbook on ENWorld is the years of banter on the topic here.  I guess they might feel that to people who haven't heard of it you need a more stand-out cover to get their attention.  <shrugs>  Ours is not to reason why.




Indeed. obviously the distributors know what sells and what doesn't, although it might have been nice to know from the start, especially after doing those extra two paintings to extend the original image.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Well, I'm sure if people get something on the predetermined date it will give them something to chew on whilst you go do arty duties.  If later updates are later than expected, I'm sure people will appreciate the hassle re: the Bestiary print edition has been a part of a lot of this.




Well I can only do my best under the circumstances.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Still, it does make me wonder: is it worth looking at getting someone else to take over art duties on this project?  Every day you spend on a picture is a day you could be spending on the actual rules, and if the Bestiary is just the first of many print versions of products it looks like we can only see the same situation repeating again and again, as demands on the new PDF and new book will always clash.  Whilst I don't dislike the art in the IH as it stands, and appreciate that you are a one-man band to some extent :> I do think that splitting off some of the art duties might be a good way to recoup some time.




Well I don't see the point of getting someone to do a job I can do, unless they would be better. Which almost certainly means hiring a professional, and I don't see any professional agreeing to wait around to be paid AFTER I get paid.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Yes, this does mean getting someone else involved, and the hilarious money-splitting issues that arise.  It's not a perfect idea: just an idea.  ;-)




They would probably want the money up front, and the only thing I have to pay them with is monopoly money at the moment. 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> I'm still looking forward to Ascension, for what it's worth.  But I don't think my 10th level D&D party are.  ;-)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Cheery mate! 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I don't think the distributors should be able to dictate artistic decisions to you.




The people with the money always call the shots, the people without (ie. me) don't. It's not like I am Monte Cook...not yet anyway. 

Like I said to GQuail, I don't mind redoing the cover, its just the timing is awkward (vis a vis Ascension) and the financial setback is bordering on scary.

Other than those two things I am pretty cool with it.



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> What next- are they going to complain that the CRs of the monsters are too high?  sheesh.




I hardly think so, thats one debate I would surely win. 



			
				Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Go with what you have, that's what I say.




Were such an option on the table...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again mate! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> To be fair, I don't think it's unfair for distributors to raise some comments, especially about the front cover: which has an undeniable influence on sales, and thusly, the money they see back.  Consider also that whilst the imprint is new, I imagine some of the staff running it are RPG hacks, who may feel they have some insights into what sells better than U_K: who, a prodigy though he is, is thus far an /unprinted/ prodigy.  ;-)




I can't speak for the distributors, but I know I have had nothing but support from Mongoose and their people. But I imagine even such as they answer to higher powers, and I can totally understand things from their perspective.

On the brightside I get to do a massive kick-@ss cover painting.   

I think it will still have the same theme, Amilictli vs. Seraphim* and an imperiled castle. But probably a much more dynamic slugfest.

*with cowering Tarrasque.

I'm also going to be working the painting at 200% (Roughly 60 x 40 cm) which should give me better detail when I shrink it down. Normally I work at 150%. Although this is going to mean a quodruple scan needing to be pieced together via photoshop. 

The only thing I am not totally sure about at this stage is the new graphic Immortals Handbook logo/text for the front cover. I'm not as confident doing one of those shiny pseudo-metal logos.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Re-doing the whole cover eh? Nice. A pain maybe, but now is the chance to really surprise everyone. (I think it may be funny to have a tornado as part of the sceanery, and the Tarrasque running away from it, paniced, but it's back end being pulled up into it. See reference - the Movie Twister - the cows )
Metallic logo huh? Photoshop is pretty good for that stuff, if you are familiar with filters, layer styles, and the Gradient tool. Use the gradient fill tool on a layer made via an outline of the text itself. Set type to Noise, and get the aproximate coloration you want. Randomize it a bit, and experiment. I did a logo for a poster like that, and it looked quite nice. 
Mine looked more like a futuristic gun-metal look in the end, rivets and all. I dont think thats what you are looking for, so a varied coloration may help. A gold/silver tint may help. A light (5-10% opacity) lense flair on the "middle curve" on some parts of metallic lettering makes it look a bit more 3D too. 
Good luck on Ascension. Not to scare you, but it's 6 days away from the post-post-prerelease.


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I don't see the point of getting someone to do a job I can do, unless they would be better. Which almost certainly means hiring a professional, and I don't see any professional agreeing to wait around to be paid AFTER I get paid.
> 
> 
> 
> They would probably want the money up front, and the only thing I have to pay them with is monopoly money at the moment.




Yeah, the cash is the big issue.  Until you are more solvent, it's not really an option: the problem being that getting solvent is going to be more complex on your own.  Ah, the joys of running your own business, eh?   :-/

Re: "getting someone to do a job I can do": well, like I said, the main reason I bring it up is because as only one man, whenever there's a list of things that need done for the IH, there's only you changing them.  Whether you can paint or not doesn't change the fact that painting time isn't writing time, and in a hypothetical world where someone else was doing the cover for you, you wouldn't need to delay Ascensions by as much to deal with it.  But all the logistic benefits are at this stage weighed out by cash problems: it's definatly something that'll have to wait until the Bestiary and Ascension are sorted before you can properly consider it.


----------



## Anabstercorian

For the new cover, might I suggest, if your skill at composition is up to it, having a lower viewpoint on the battle?  Perhaps from the eye level of the Tarrasque as it cowers before the epic clash of the godlike titans - it would certainly be eye catching.  "Whoa!  Those things are HUGE!"


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Re-doing the whole cover eh? Nice. A pain maybe, but now is the chance to really surprise everyone. (I think it may be funny to have a tornado as part of the sceanery, and the Tarrasque running away from it, paniced, but it's back end being pulled up into it. See reference - the Movie Twister - the cows )




Well I was thinking of twister when I did my interior illustration of the Amilictli, theres a cow spinning up its leg.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Metallic logo huh? Photoshop is pretty good for that stuff, if you are familiar with filters, layer styles, and the Gradient tool. Use the gradient fill tool on a layer made via an outline of the text itself. Set type to Noise, and get the aproximate coloration you want. Randomize it a bit, and experiment. I did a logo for a poster like that, and it looked quite nice.
> 
> Mine looked more like a futuristic gun-metal look in the end, rivets and all. I dont think thats what you are looking for, so a varied coloration may help. A gold/silver tint may help. A light (5-10% opacity) lense flair on the "middle curve" on some parts of metallic lettering makes it look a bit more 3D too.




Thanks. I just don't have an image in my head as to what the logo should be right now. But I am sure I'll work something out eventually.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Good luck on Ascension. Not to scare you, but it's 6 days away from the post-post-prerelease.




5 now.   

Incidently I am thinking it will be at least 6pm on Friday (my time) before I'll upload it. But  I'll mention that on the website, closer to the day.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail matey! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Yeah, the cash is the big issue.  Until you are more solvent, it's not really an option: the problem being that getting solvent is going to be more complex on your own.  Ah, the joys of running your own business, eh?   :-/




Trials and Tribulations more like. 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Re: "getting someone to do a job I can do": well, like I said, the main reason I bring it up is because as only one man, whenever there's a list of things that need done for the IH, there's only you changing them.  Whether you can paint or not doesn't change the fact that painting time isn't writing time, and in a hypothetical world where someone else was doing the cover for you, you wouldn't need to delay Ascensions by as much to deal with it.  But all the logistic benefits are at this stage weighed out by cash problems: it's definatly something that'll have to wait until the Bestiary and Ascension are sorted before you can properly consider it.




In a perfect world...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> For the new cover, might I suggest, if your skill at composition is up to it, having a lower viewpoint on the battle?  Perhaps from the eye level of the Tarrasque as it cowers before the epic clash of the godlike titans - it would certainly be eye catching.  "Whoa!  Those things are HUGE!"




Thanks for reminding me. When I initially did the cover painting I toyed with the perspective idea, but didn't feel confident at the time. However, I think I am up to the task now. I did a quick pencil sketch last night (6 x 10 cm) just to get a feel for it and I like the idea and I especially like the way it lets me get all the Seraphim's wings into the page without totally dominating the picture.

I think everyone will like the more all-action posing of the two main protagonists, it looks like the Seraphim has the upper hand this time...as it should be. 

So don't worry about the cover painting. Although if anyone has any advice/examples/ideas for the logo, by all means I am open to suggestions.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Well I was thinking of twister when I did my interior illustration of the Amilictli, theres a cow spinning up its leg.



Wow I never noticed that before. (I must have taken that for a tree)


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ... it will be at least 6pm on Friday (my time) before I'll upload it...



Sweet. Unless the world starts spinning in reverse (and friday it may ) thats ~1:00 here. I will anticipate a delay or too, so I am guessing it will be up at ~3 or so my time (~9 or so for you, unless my concept of timezones is totaly wrong). Yes U_K, I know well enough to add 50% to any timeframe you mention. 
Definitely looking forward to Ascension. 
Sadly my gaming group decided to take some rather rash actions last session, and cleared even more of the campaine than I anticipated. Though they have to cleave their way through another long section of difficult (EL+~1-4!) encounters, It looks like Ascension will come in the nick of time. (Though they may just all die off, as they skipped several dozen encounters through luck, and are slightly below the level range of the next section of the adventure. Lucky them, though I am confident, since its a 9 person group (Yes, nine people, it seems my whole group came back from vacation at once) they should make it out alive with no more than a 50% fatality rate. )
Edit: U_K! If I can, I think I could upload or email you a sampling of logo ideas. I might not use the right font, but Ill pick one that is aproximate to your previous designs.
Edit part II: U_K! I emailed you a hastily-made sample idea for the text, as well as a writeup of how to make something similar. It should be noted I put some minor lenseflares on 3 of the letters, if these are to be used, apply them AFTER everything is arranged on the cover, so as to make the letters appear to be part of the image, versus being something that just looks pasted on there. (I saw this mistake on some WOTC covers with their D&D logo. Very minor, but if noticed it is something one will always notice when looking at the image)


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> 5 now.



And now 4.


----------



## Rockhoward56

yop
ohohohohoho!
beings beyond the akashic records?miam miam!
Is it the supreme Being the most powerful "monster" or not lol?
Keep working , good luck


----------



## Fieari

And 3...

It took some explaining for me to concieve of anything higher than the supreme being, although once the records were explained I could accept that readily enough.  But now that the akashic records have been explained, I -really- can't figure out what could be higher than that, even templated Lipika...

I mean, I guess I could imagine a meta-library, which contains the first library, but...

And I was under the impression that the Supreme Being was supposed to be the Author anyway?

So what could be more?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

I think the idea of there being things larger than the supreme being is just a plothook in the event someone runs a Highlord-Level game. Since anyone in the party could match the supreme being, heck, one might even BE the supreme being, There could be "things" out there more dangerous or more powerful. 
An example: Perhaps there is a super-abomination that steals other deities powers permenently, reguardless of level. Perhaps it ran into a timelord or ten, and now has a whole host of Transcendent and Omnific abilities. Certainly it would be dangerous to the PCs, who would have to fight it "normally."
The concept of a being higher than the Supreme being is just a hook I think. Just like in the current D&D pantheons, there may be stronger things than the gods. (High Age Catagory Prismatic Dragons, for example)
Of course, only U_K knows for sure.


----------



## historian

It seems to me that anything beyond the Akashic Records couldn't logically flow from a being originating in one of the known 10 dimensions.  At least as I understand it the Akashic Records would already have said templated being recorded in their memory, irrespective of what point in time said being came into existence.

If it were beyond the Akashic Records I think it would have to be "out there" so to speak.  Fundamentally different from anything in the known dimensions.

I guess I'll have more information around noon in my time zone (CDT) on Friday.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Ltheb dude! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> 
> Wow I never noticed that before. (I must have taken that for a tree)




I thought I had a tree and a cow.

Incidently I should point out that when I initially created the pdfs, not only was the dpi on the images very low, but I had also accidentally clicked something called optimised subsampling which limits the resolution of the files.   

Suffice to say the files sent off to the printer were massive and even when I viewed them at 3200% didn't pixelate! So all the images will be extra crisp.   

I have been told by the publisher that if I can get the cover sorted out before the end of the month it would only be a setback of one month (mid-October release). Although more depressingly for me I still have to wait an extra 3 months before I get paid.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Sweet. Unless the world starts spinning in reverse (and friday it may ) thats ~1:00 here. I will anticipate a delay or too, so I am guessing it will be up at ~3 or so my time (~9 or so for you, unless my concept of timezones is totaly wrong). Yes U_K, I know well enough to add 50% to any timeframe you mention.




I would have thought adding 100% was more logical.   

However, I don't foresee any problems since I'm not going to be uploading a finished document (as we all know). So it will just be a matter of uploading all the finished pages I have. Alzrius should have had the chance to look over the first 47 pages by tonight (I have six more to send him in a few hours). Tomorrow I should be able to finish off the epic feats and feat packages. Thursday I'll try and make a sizeable dent in the divine and cosmic abilities. I'm guessing the file released on Friday will have between 80-100 pages completed, but I am probably stretching to get all of Chapter 4 done by 6pm Friday.

On other related matters though I have been inquiring with the publisher about getting someone else to do the cover (and thus free up letting me work on Ascension). So I'll hopefully find out more on that between now and Friday. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Definitely looking forward to Ascension.
> Sadly my gaming group decided to take some rather rash actions last session, and cleared even more of the campaine than I anticipated. Though they have to cleave their way through another long section of difficult (EL+~1-4!) encounters, It looks like Ascension will come in the nick of time. (Though they may just all die off, as they skipped several dozen encounters through luck, and are slightly below the level range of the next section of the adventure. Lucky them, though I am confident, since its a 9 person group (Yes, nine people, it seems my whole group came back from vacation at once) they should make it out alive with no more than a 50% fatality rate. )




Nine person group. Remember you should be using Challenge Ratings double the party's average level with a party that size.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Edit: U_K! If I can, I think I could upload or email you a sampling of logo ideas. I might not use the right font, but Ill pick one that is aproximate to your previous designs.




Okay thanks.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Edit part II: U_K! I emailed you a hastily-made sample idea for the text, as well as a writeup of how to make something similar. It should be noted I put some minor lenseflares on 3 of the letters, if these are to be used, apply them AFTER everything is arranged on the cover, so as to make the letters appear to be part of the image, versus being something that just looks pasted on there. (I saw this mistake on some WOTC covers with their D&D logo. Very minor, but if noticed it is something one will always notice when looking at the image)




I appreciate the help dude. I'm not sure if I will be using the same font for the cover anymore. The advice handed down from high above is that the cover should be more akin to something like the Drow War series...

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/d20/series.php?qsSeries=34

...with a 'Slayers Guide' type logo that can be reused on all the books.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/d20/series.php?qsSeries=10

So, like I said. I already know what I am going to do on the cover painting just not the logo. At least not yet.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey RockHoward mate! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> yop
> ohohohohoho!
> beings beyond the akashic records?miam miam!
> Is it the supreme Being the most powerful "monster" or not lol?
> Keep working , good luck




I should point out that there are no stats for Supreme Beings or above. Such things are only discussed...although I do discuss how you could give them stats.   

The most powerful statted being is going to be the High Lord.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari dude! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> And 3...
> 
> It took some explaining for me to concieve of anything higher than the supreme being, although once the records were explained I could accept that readily enough.  But now that the akashic records have been explained, I -really- can't figure out what could be higher than that, even templated Lipika...
> 
> I mean, I guess I could imagine a meta-library, which contains the first library, but...
> 
> And I was under the impression that the Supreme Being was supposed to be the Author anyway?
> 
> So what could be more?




You'll just have to wait and see.   

On a side note, I may have mentioned this before but there was a very interesting comic book story written by Mark Millar (he of Civil War fame) while he worked on the comic 2000AD. The comic character was Canon Fodder, who was sort of like a priestly Judge Dredd. Anyway, this particular story revolved around Sherlock Holmes and Professor Moriarty teaming up to overthrow GOD, but when they got there they find Heaven overun by demons and that the Devil has killed GOD. Anyway Canon Fodder tracks them to heaven, GOD makes a comeback (he wasn't dead, after all he invented death) and some interesting philosophical questions are posed and some answered. It also includes the best ever illustration(s) of GOD I have ever seen. Unfortunately I am still missing the last bloody issue so I could only guess at the answer to the who created GOD question posed at the end of the penultimate issue.

I should point out this story is not for the faint hearted. Its very violent and has some strong language. But if you don't mind that its one of the more interesting takes on the subject.

http://www.2000adonline.com/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&choice=CANON

http://www.2000adonline.com/?zone=prog&page=profiles&choice=861


----------



## Rockhoward56

*yop*

Thank you U-k!  
Have tou some some monsters in your pocket who could dealing with the freaking (Time Lord , High Lord). The mezzaroth of course but.......
Still waiting for Ascension


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Definitly interested in the portfolio rules you mentioned. Several characters in past games from my gaming group would need converting, and a couple of players have already eyed up appropriate portfolios. One of them being a deity of archery (A Deepwood Sniper ) and a druid would want a nature portfolio and some archery-related portfolio. (An object porfolio (Bows) or possibly the Sky Porfolio) 
Awesome that the resolution turned out so nice. Any chances on uploading to Enworld the crisper bestiary? Though with it being released in print around October, I know if I dont preorder it from the Borders near me, I will definitely pick it up by the end of November, as a Birthday present to myself. 
By the way, what appears on the back? Is it just black, or will their be a review/overview? Or does the image wrap arround the book. (That would look pretty cool, though a bit overused. Perhaps a hardbacked Ascension would be more appropriate for such an illustration)
Hopefully we will get to see the bulk of Ascension on friday (A quick glance at the ToC says all the good bits I would need would be there. My players are definitely going to be wanting some Divine intervention pretty soon!)


----------



## historian

Whoops


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  

I hope all is progressing well for you.  This is probably a stupid question but I was wondering about the mechanics of downloading Ascension from Enworld this Friday.  Will it be a standard dowload from the website, e-mail or some other?

Thanks and sorry to bother you with it.  I'm just very excited about seeing the work at this point.

Mods, please feel free to delete my previous post as an inadvertant keystroke caused me to send it out early.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Tomorrow and tomorrow...and tomorrow creeps in its petty pace from day to day until the last syllable of recorded time.

 Er, what I meant to say is, "two days left."


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Rockhoward dude! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Thank you U-k!
> Have tou some some monsters in your pocket who could dealing with the freaking (Time Lord , High Lord). The mezzaroth of course but.......
> Still waiting for Ascension




I mention about half a dozen eternal level threats Nehaschimic Dragons would be one, Spectrals (Mazzaroth) would be another, Transelementals are a third...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Ltheb matey! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Definitly interested in the portfolio rules you mentioned. Several characters in past games from my gaming group would need converting, and a couple of players have already eyed up appropriate portfolios. One of them being a deity of archery (A Deepwood Sniper ) and a druid would want a nature portfolio and some archery-related portfolio. (An object porfolio (Bows) or possibly the Sky Porfolio)




Well I am not sure exactly how much (if any) of Chapter 3 you will see. I sort of need Chapter 4 finished before I can finish Chapter 3.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Awesome that the resolution turned out so nice. Any chances on uploading to Enworld the crisper bestiary?




I think it would be 60 meg+ (I had to split it into six pdfs for the publisher and each pdf I sent them was over 10 meg if I remember correctly) so I am not sure thats feasible.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Though with it being released in print around October, I know if I dont preorder it from the Borders near me, I will definitely pick it up by the end of November, as a Birthday present to myself.




I appreciate the love dude.   

On a related note I was told earlier that I'll have to do the cover myself, so the second Ascension update on the 21st may not be as big a leap as I would want - since I'll have to do the new Bestiary cover.

However, I'll be working on the painting during the daytime, so I should still be able to finish off a couple of pages each night.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> By the way, what appears on the back? Is it just black, or will their be a review/overview? Or does the image wrap arround the book. (That would look pretty cool, though a bit overused.




The back cover of my design was the same as the front but with the book 'blurb' replacing the titles.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Perhaps a hardbacked Ascension would be more appropriate for such an illustration)




You understand that I don't get paid extra for a wrap around cover. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Hopefully we will get to see the bulk of Ascension on friday (A quick glance at the ToC says all the good bits I would need would be there. My players are definitely going to be wanting some Divine intervention pretty soon!)




Well I don't know about 'bulk', although there will certainly be a lot to keep people going until the next update.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!
> 
> I hope all is progressing well for you.




Hey dude!  

Slower than expected...but then I should have expected that I suppose.   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> This is probably a stupid question but I was wondering about the mechanics of downloading Ascension from Enworld this Friday.  Will it be a standard dowload from the website, e-mail or some other?




I'll upload it to ENWorld Gamestore, then I will email everyone who bought it and let them know what the situation is (_vis-a-vis_ its not yet completed but take a look if you want to).

On an unrelated note I'll keep it at pre-order price until such time as I at least have all the text finished.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks and sorry to bother you with it.




No bother at all.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm just very excited about seeing the work at this point.




Me too.

Alzrius feedback so far has been a great help, and I expect getting things out there will only be a good thing too.

I'm interested to know what people think of the event system and the divinity templates.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Mods, please feel free to delete my previous post as an inadvertant keystroke caused me to send it out early.




You could have just edited it.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I'll upload it to ENWorld Gamestore, then I will email everyone who bought it and let them know what the situation is (vis-a-vis its not yet completed but take a look if you want to).




Cool.



> On an unrelated note I'll keep it at pre-order price until such time as I at least have all the text finished.




I'm curious as to whether you're doing any advertising of this outside of the forums you usually visit?  

I knw you're feeling hamstrung by limited financial resources at this point but there should be ways to get full product exposure without signing your soul away.  Of course, I would certainly expect your venture with Mongoose to help in that respect but there might be other means as well.



> No bother at all.




Thanks.



> Alzrius feedback so far has been a great help, and I expect getting things out there will only be a good thing too.




I think you're right and it goes to the penultimate point above.  I have a great respect for your zealousness in creating a perfect product but I feel like, from what I've seen of your existing work, that the conceptual design and execution behind your work is far, far better than most of what's out there.

In net terms I think you're making the right decision to go with a beta/pre-release pending a definitive version and I hope to see your reaping the fruits of your labor in short order.



> I'm interested to know what people think of the event system and the divinity templates.




I know what a divinity template is but not an event system.  

I'm certain it will be well received.



> You could have just edited it.




I already did, I just didn't like it wasting space.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Howdy! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I'm curious as to whether you're doing any advertising of this outside of the forums you usually visit?




Not really, but I may have to start.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I knw you're feeling hamstrung by limited financial resources at this point but there should be ways to get full product exposure without signing your soul away.




I am open to ideas...?



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Of course, I would certainly expect your venture with Mongoose to help in that respect but there might be other means as well.




Well certainly they are going to publicise it, but not before I get the cover done, and even then thats not going to help me in the short term which is the main problem.

September is starting to look very scary (financially speaking). Since the chances are (now that I have to take time off to do the cover) that I won't have the finished Ascension until early/mid September at the earliest, which means even if its on sale at rpgnow and drivethru I basically won't see any of the profits until October, which then take another week to clear anyway. So there is a window of about five weeks starting in September for which I have no actual money.

...and just to prove my lucks in, the next invoice for the website is due at the start of October.   

I may have to take a part time job just to survive September, which will almost certainly impact release dates...just as well I don't do release dates.    

To be honest though I only have myself to blame. Ascension should have been finished months ago and we should be talking about the iminent release of the Grimoire at this stage of the year.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I think you're right and it goes to the penultimate point above.  I have a great respect for your zealousness in creating a perfect product but I feel like, from what I've seen of your existing work, that the conceptual design and execution behind your work is far, far better than most of what's out there.
> 
> In net terms I think you're making the right decision to go with a beta/pre-release pending a definitive version and I hope to see your reaping the fruits of your labor in short order.




Well I don't really have another choice at this stage.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I know what a divinity template is but not an event system.
> 
> I'm certain it will be well received.




As with the initial Bestiary release (pre-art version) I totally hate giving people an unfinished book. But theres nothing else for it.


----------



## Rockhoward56

*thanks*

Thanks U-k!
About the Nerashimic dragons , how a Nexus Great Wyrm (CR 600+ could challenge Dabbat CR 10 000+ or Tetragrammaton CR 32 000 000+???)
I don"t know anything about the transelemental or strong symetric matter golem but i think only a High Lord could beat another High Lord .
Have you some names about powerful beings who had successfully passed the challenge of the twelve spectrals? Been in the 10 th dimension?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Thanks U-k!
> About the Nerashimic dragons , how a Nexus Great Wyrm (CR 600+ could challenge Dabbat CR 10 000+ or Tetragrammaton CR 32 000 000+???)




Well two things.

Firstly, demiurges are eternals who are not quite as powerful as time lords.

Secondly, the nexus dragon listed CR is wrong when we start using CR multipliers for transcendental and omnific abilities. 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> I don"t know anything about the transelemental or strong symetric matter golem but i think only a High Lord could beat another High Lord.




Strong Symmetric Golem doesn't really roll off the tongue, I prefer Quantum Golem...which is incidently the fourth opponent named as a possible eternal threat.   



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Have you some names about powerful beings who had successfully passed the challenge of the twelve spectrals? Been in the 10th dimension?




Usually they go on to become Supreme Beings.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Wow, it is quite intimidating when ten things jump you all at once.
This tends to happen to me quite more than I would like. Your best bet is just to plug away at what needs to happen. A few corners may be cut here and there, But as historian said, your level of professionalism (release dates aside) and product quality are vastly superior to most every publisher I can think of.
I think the issues lie in that you do all the work. You can only do so much at once, and if one problem arises, it affects the project as a whole. Granted, hiring other people to assist with the production of the book reduces your net profit significantly, which is something I know you don't need.
However, I am sure there are a few in your gaming circles and some on EnWorld who would like to contribute to such projects, possibly without making any profit themselves. Your skills lie greatly dispersed in many areas, but trying to cover all of those areas at once is futile. 
Your stuff is great; don't get me wrong, I don't think that many of us are as inspired as you are when it comes to these things. 
Though, once Ascension is released, I am sure that all the tasks after this will go quickly, especially if you plan to release the Immortal's Index books, which, for the most part, will just require generating large numbers of deities and recording the information of their teachings, with a handful of new material thrown in. (Like in the Bestiary, new PrC's Weapon powers, and some unique divine+ abilities)
The real difficulty in creating a work this large is (at least as it seems to me) arriving at the ideas themselves, not writing the mechanics. The evil eye power is potent, cool, and mechanically simple. I'd place my bets on your creating the idea of deity of fate "cursing" via divine decree another deity and hindering his actions. I doubt it started as "Hey, what if a deity could make his foes roll all 1's," or at least not directly.  
If I were you, I doubt I would have even arrived at the Idea of such powers. Until I saw the Immortal's Handbook, the Idea of things greater than Over gods, and the like, were beyond my train of thought. 
I really hope this all works out for you, but don't give up. Then you can't win.
(If it matters any, a friend of mine, told me he may be purchasing Ascension soon, probably around when Chapters 3-4 are totally done.) (Of course, it could be worse. Enworld could start charging you for all the bandwidth your threads use up. ) (And sadly, with my posts being as long as they are, they would likely also float me a bill too)


----------



## Rockhoward56

Thanks as always!  
Quantum Golem.......hum interesting! but WHO could craft this things ?
Would mention the mezaaroth in one of your books? 
I'm very interested to play one Spectrals 
Good luck!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey Ltheb mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Wow, it is quite intimidating when ten things jump you all at once.




Tell me about it.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> This tends to happen to me quite more than I would like. Your best bet is just to plug away at what needs to happen. A few corners may be cut here and there, But as historian said, your level of professionalism (release dates aside) and product quality are vastly superior to most every publisher I can think of.




Well I don't know about 'cutting corners' but I was thinking I might release Ascension (on drivethru and rpgnow) initially with about 30 illustrations, rather than the 45 or so I was planning. Then update it a week or two later with the rest of the images.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I think the issues lie in that you do all the work. You can only do so much at once, and if one problem arises, it affects the project as a whole. Granted, hiring other people to assist with the production of the book reduces your net profit significantly, which is something I know you don't need.




Well certainly thats a part of it, but I know myself I am a procrastinator. I spend as much time studying and thinking on a project as I do writing.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> However, I am sure there are a few in your gaming circles and some on EnWorld who would like to contribute to such projects, possibly without making any profit themselves. Your skills lie greatly dispersed in many areas, but trying to cover all of those areas at once is futile. Your stuff is great; don't get me wrong, I don't think that many of us are as inspired as you are when it comes to these things.




Thats okay, I have a few ideas that will help me sort things out. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Though, once Ascension is released, I am sure that all the tasks after this will go quickly, especially if you plan to release the Immortal's Index books, which, for the most part, will just require generating large numbers of deities and recording the information of their teachings, with a handful of new material thrown in. (Like in the Bestiary, new PrC's Weapon powers, and some unique divine+ abilities)




...yeah and that art just draws itself, those Index books will go quickly.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The real difficulty in creating a work this large is (at least as it seems to me) arriving at the ideas themselves, not writing the mechanics.




Its not even so much the ideas as the writing between the ideas.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The evil eye power is potent, cool, and mechanically simple. I'd place my bets on your creating the idea of deity of fate "cursing" via divine decree another deity and hindering his actions. I doubt it started as "Hey, what if a deity could make his foes roll all 1's," or at least not directly.




Immortals make deals which are ratified by the fates. Then if they break those deals they are cursed.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> If I were you, I doubt I would have even arrived at the Idea of such powers. Until I saw the Immortal's Handbook, the Idea of things greater than Over gods, and the like, were beyond my train of thought.




Well I like stoking peoples imaginations.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I really hope this all works out for you, but don't give up. Then you can't win.




Don't worry about that, the Krust is like an eternal, he can't be permanently defeated, only stymied.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> (If it matters any, a friend of mine, told me he may be purchasing Ascension soon, probably around when Chapters 3-4 are totally done.) (Of course, it could be worse. Enworld could start charging you for all the bandwidth your threads use up. ) (And sadly, with my posts being as long as they are, they would likely also float me a bill too)




I totally appreciate the help of everyone who has pre-ordered, thats been a big help. 

As for tomorrow, it looks like chapters 1, 2 and half of chapter 4, and I don't know how much I will be able to have for the second update on the 21st (since I'll have to do the new bestiary cover), maybe the rest of chapter 4 (although its a pretty big chapter).

So, I think your friend will be waiting until the end of the month (31st) before I have the first 4 chapters completed.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dude! 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Thanks as always!
> Quantum Golem.......hum interesting! but WHO could craft this things ?




Quantum golems could be a universe where the dimension of time so dominated that it turned itself into a single  



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Would mention the mezaaroth in one of your books?




I mention them in all of my books (so far). 



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> I'm very interested to play one Spectrals




You are crazy!   



			
				Rockhoward56 said:
			
		

> Good luck!




Thanks! I need it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

*Mother Superior!*

Hey guys! 

Okay, I am putting the finishing touches to the epic feats. I have 98 feats that I like and 6 others that I don't really like that much (bread and butter feats lets call them).

So which two, from the following six sound the most interesting...?

Superior Bull Rush - You do not fall prone if pushed back
Superior Cleave - You can make a 5 foot step while cleaving
Superior Disarm - Successful attacks deal damage and a disarm attempt
Superior Feint - You can feint even non-intelligent opposition
Superior Trip - Successful attacks deal damage and a trip attempt	
Superior Power Attack - Trade one point of BAB for 2 points of damage

DOH! Actually, I just recalculated and it appears I have 101 feats that I like, so the above six are surplus, but do you think any of them merit inclusion? Looking at the table I now have room for one more.

One other feat related question...

Is the name Underwalker or Earthwalker better for a feat that lets the character burrow?

Oh, and those of you who remember me talking about not having enough bardic love amidst the feats, need not worry, I don't know where they came from but I now appear to have about half a dozen.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I am open to ideas...?




If I had a silver bullet I would give it freely but unfortunately I have no experience in RPG marketing.  It appears that you have the web channels pretty well saturated.  Would it be possible to offer the pdf versions on Amazon or another equivalent?

Additional pdfs can be generated with virtually nothing in terms of marginal cost.  Were it me I don't think I would hesitate to broadcast them over any channel that offers direct sales to consumers. 

Part of this will also likely be influenced by your agreement with Mongoose who I am sure will do a fine job promoting the hard copy.  



> Well certainly they are going to publicise it, but not before I get the cover done, and even then thats not going to help me in the short term which is the main problem.




In all candor I hate that you're having to do that on your own.  I like your art, but if this compromises your products' release by any material length of time then that not only compromises your economics but it also doesn't do Mongoose any favors.  It's made that much worse by the fact that, not only will it delay the release of the print versions of the Bestiary and Ascension but will have a domino effect on subsequent product releases.  

You might well be the best crafter of epic and immortal gaming materials in the world; seriously.  To me that's the value you bring to the dance.  I think folks should let you do what you do best and subcontract that which could be more easily replicated.  IMO, that makes more sense for you and your publisher.  

Please understand that the foregoing is not at all a complaint over a release date.  I just don't want to see you as a starving artist.  



> Well certainly they are going to publicise it, but not before I get the cover done, and even then thats not going to help me in the short term which is the main problem.
> 
> September is starting to look very scary (financially speaking). Since the chances are (now that I have to take time off to do the cover) that I won't have the finished Ascension until early/mid September at the earliest, which means even if its on sale at rpgnow and drivethru I basically won't see any of the profits until October, which then take another week to clear anyway. So there is a window of about five weeks starting in September for which I have no actual money.
> 
> ...and just to prove my lucks in, the next invoice for the website is due at the start of October.




 

That's a bummer dude.  

Perhaps there is a way to collect an advance from Mongoose based on anticipated sales revenue?  Certainly they should be interested in the most expeditious release date possible.

There are also several financial types (of one I am not) like venture capitalists or private equity type groups that operate on a smaller scale.  I'm sure they could provide some near-term help in exchange for an interest in your business.

The problem there is they may actually want an arm and a leg.  You tend to have to negotiate very hard with them.



> To be honest though I only have myself to blame. Ascension should have been finished months ago and we should be talking about the iminent release of the Grimoire at this stage of the year.




I have your alignment as lawful good with chaotic tendencies when it comes to release dates.  Don't beat yourself up over it any more than you already have.  It's what you do forward that counts.



> As with the initial Bestiary release (pre-art version) I totally hate giving people an unfinished book. But theres nothing else for it.




I would just have the reviewers note that it's a beta pending completion.  

Alzrius seems to love it so far, and from what I've seen it looks great.

Good luck man and as always feel free to get in touch here or by e-mail if I can help.  In the interest of full disclosure you have my assurances that anything I can do will be pro bono (and of course not legal advice as I don't have a license to advise you).


----------



## historian

> So which two, from the following six sound the most interesting...?
> 
> Superior Bull Rush - You do not fall prone if pushed back
> Superior Cleave - You can make a 5 foot step while cleaving
> Superior Disarm - Successful attacks deal damage and a disarm attempt
> Superior Feint - You can feint even non-intelligent opposition
> Superior Trip - Successful attacks deal damage and a trip attempt
> Superior Power Attack - Trade one point of BAB for 2 points of damage




Superior Disarm and Superior Trip get my vote as most cinematic.

Superior Power Attack seems most useful.



> One other feat related question...
> 
> Is the name Underwalker or Earthwalker better for a feat that lets the character burrow?




How about Krustwalker?  

Seriously, Underwalker seems more apropos.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*breaks into song* ToMORrow, toMORrow, Ascension's toMORrow! It's onnnly a day  awayyy!


----------



## dante58701

*speechless in anticipation*


----------



## Fieari

> Superior Bull Rush - You do not fall prone if pushed back
> Superior Cleave - You can make a 5 foot step while cleaving
> Superior Disarm - Successful attacks deal damage and a disarm attempt
> Superior Feint - You can feint even non-intelligent opposition
> Superior Trip - Successful attacks deal damage and a trip attempt
> Superior Power Attack - Trade one point of BAB for 2 points of damage




Bull Rush is rarely used in my estimation, and the superior version of it is simply a defense against a bull rush.  Not impressive to me.

Superior Cleave already exists in other WotC products, doesn't it?  As a class feature, not a feat, if I'm not mistaken, but still...

Now, the Superior Disarm, THAT'S useful.  Disarm on every attack, and do damage whether you succeed or fail?  Nice!  And perfect for the merciful type... I can imagine someone with the Vow of Peace wanting this feat a lot (in conjunction with their Merciful weapon, of course).

Superior Feint is interesting, but doesn't it provoke the "absolute" problem anyway, just like a feat that allows you to plow through energy immunity?

Superior Trip should be a feat.  If wolves can do it, why can't humans learn how?

Superior Power Attack... my God... Power Attack as is is a MUST HAVE feat for epic gaming.  If this feat existed, there's not a fighter alive that wouldn't take it first thing.  Now... is that a good thing or a bad thing?  I mean, a feat so useful that EVERYONE needs it, just to be competetive?  Sounds broken to me...


----------



## Strife

I believe that both superior cleave and superior power attack are extremely good ones,

being that it allows you get the two class features that my gorup considered coolest about the Frenzied berserker, without having to deal with the frenzy bs, and the overall brokenness of the class. we always wonder in regards to power attack,

whys the 20th level fighter only do half the powerattack damage of a 10 barb 10 frenzied berserker,

well the berserkers drooling that adds all the difference, 
then we questioned why can he still hit so hard when hes not frenzied...
well i dont know he just knows how to hit harder...

I say this even though i was the one playing a frenzied berserker in epic, who happened to be the smartest in the group and most charismatic, known for being a demon in battle as well as one of the most honorable men alive


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> ...yeah and that art just draws itself, those Index books will go quickly.



Well, this is true. But inspirational material isn't too dificult to find on such topics. I don't know how many pictures of Zeus there are, but I am sure we have seen a few of them, and I don't think a picture of a Giant in a Toga throwing Lightning Bolts is too out there. (Compared to the nexus dragon. I am still trying to figure out which end is the "head." I think it the part encircled by the 6 wings? That does kindof look like an eye or maw)
Oh, perhaps a minor question, since Grimoir is next, and no doubt you have been thinking of such related things. Are artifacts like the Robes of the Almight (Nimrod) or the Ram Headed-Throne (Sandalphon) unique, or are those powers duplicatable at a certain level of divinity?
Just curious, as I think they are so awsome. (The line about it being foolish to attack Sandalphon on his home plane is an instant classic)
Sadly, with the Enworld board "hiccup" your post reguarding Deity artifact ratings based on ECL is no longer here. It came out to having a bonus equal to ~1/3 ECL, right? All I remember is an example of an ECL 800 deity being able to have Omnific-level artifacts.
I think you listed some sort of equivalent Artifact-feat-equivalency that lead to that number.  Also, does having an Infinity-power grant other, lesser benifits? Like if you had infinite Intellect, would you just know everything, even what the DM has planned?
I am sure a couple of these will be answered tomorrow, but since Grimoir is like 4-6 months away, I dunno. 
Just a random estimate. I remember trying to price Epic Magic item powers myself. This was back in 3.0, where weapon "Plus" mattered, so my reasoning is that having a power with an equivallency of +10 would cripple your ability to injure things, and so gave those levels of weapon power amazing abilities. I remember I had a "Legendary" enhancement, that did 3 things, for a +10 equivallency: Natural 19's counted as 20's (on attacks for weapons, saves for armors), Criticals were automatically confirmed (minor, but Icing on the cake) and any kind of smite damage done with such a weapon was doubled.
Your never-miss-except-on-a-one power sure blows that out of the water! 
Well, its late here, and If I stay up too terribly late, I will end up waking up at 1:01, thus robbing myself of sixty whole seconds of *Cue Palpatine Scream* "Unlimited Power!"
EDIT: WOW I missed a whole page?!?! 
All of those abilities seem nice and merit inclusion, however, Superior Cleave and Power Attack are both class features of a certain Frenzied Berserker PrC. (At least in name I believe, though I think its Power Attack ability is better than yours)
The feint power seems the most powerful, I might have to say even broken, since, without a bit of common sense on part of the DM, it allows the rogue to sunder walls very well. "Forget disarming traps! Ill just destroy them!" Though it does help said rogue stand a chance, should they ever be forced into a Knife Fight with a Neutronium Golem.
Other than that, they sound totally awesome. And it sounds to me they are the basic feats! Oh boy, If those are indeed the basic epic feats, then I cant wait to get to ultra-mindblowingly-blinding speed!
EDIT, MARK II: It seems my insomnia has returned... *Yawn* I think Underwalker sounds much more appropo, though earthwalker could be the name of some rediculously high-prereq feat that like grants X10 overland travel. "So you say you walked 240 miles yesterday? Who do you think you are, Forest Gump?"
As for bard stuff, with a dozen or so feats in there, plus I know of a few from other supplements that are surprisingly good, Epic bards should be in good shape. I wonder, would granting a bard the ability to invoke the "brown noise" be an epic feat, or a divine ability?


----------



## Nyeshet

I just realized. Tomorrow could mean any time from midnight to next midnight. Technically he could tease us all day with Ascention and only relent a minute before the day after tomorrow. 

Of course, he wouldn't _really_ do that, right?    

[Edit]Nevermind, I just read his website. I look forward to 6pm. I will be getting home from work about that time, give or take a quarter hour, so it will be perfect for me. Hmm, maybe it will be a good idea to wait an hour before downloading, as I imagine many will be hitting the 'download' button come 6pm. [/edit]

In any case I am _really_ looking forward to ascention. Not so much because I or my players tend to go epic all that often (quite the reverse actually, as we prefer levels 8-12 - to the point of starting our characters around levels 3-5 and often retiring them around levels 15 - 17), but rather because I intend to use it to create more realistic / balanced (per level) deities for the campaign world.

How many others will be getting Ascention for that reason, I wonder, rather than to create PC playable deities?


----------



## thundershot

I've been lurking for quite a bit, (with a couple replies here and there) and I can't wait until I see these books in print. I apoligize for not supporting PDF, but in my home, they just never get used.... ever. Except for the Riding Hare from "In the Saddle"... Yeah. As soon as the first volume of the Immortals Handbook is out, I'm on it. My only fear is that the other books don't make it to print.... I'm tempted to just preorder it from Mongoose... I wonder though... why didn't they like the cover? Is it because there's too much black? Or the art in general?


Sorry for the randomness,
Chris


----------



## Edheldur

Nyeshet said:
			
		

> ...but rather because I intend to use it to create more realistic / balanced (per level) deities for the campaign world.
> 
> How many others will be getting Ascention for that reason, I wonder, rather than to create PC playable deities?



I am. Still, since my campaign is on a hiatus I'm in no rush to get it tomorrow. But, I will get it eventually.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Well, I too like the Idea of "realistic deities"
When I am not running an epic level campaine, I tend to run a low-magic campaine setting I have been working on for about a year now, and one of the things that I like about it is that I try to keep things in line compared to the average human. 2-4 Hp, 10 AC, etc. Something of  11th level would have almost 100 hp, and ac around 20-25 easy.  Such a being would be a "god" compared to the human commoner, requireing an army or a crafty mage or a couple of heros to take down. My power scaling isn't too much different than U_K's in most cases, it just has the possibility of deities on the lower end of the spectrum. I think I had power scaling as follows: 
Levels
1-5 - Human norms of skill. 1 being basic, 5 elite.
6-10 - Legendary skill. Few would possess such power.
11-20 - "Godlike" If such beings wern't already gods, they may as well be compared to everything else.
Granded these weren't hard and fast rules, they simply show a range of comparison, so the PCs know exactly how powerful they are, even when they get their butt kicked by the Queen's royal guard. 
U_K's stuff I think will help with Ideas for my low-magic campaine, but I do think it is mainly intended for High-level play.
EDIT: Nyeshet! Though pointless to point out since its only 12 hours away, but your ENworld  forum profile says you live on the East Coast. U_K does not  He lives 5 timezones away, so anytime he lists, subtrack 5 hours for his timezone discrepency. So 1:00...


----------



## dante58701

noon for me...lol!!!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

Okay, it took me longer at the bank than I anticipated*, so expect the release about 45-60 minutes later than billed. So about 6:45 to 7:00 pm GMT.

Yes I know, I like to be awkward.  

*and no I didn't rob it.


----------



## Pssthpok

I'll be at work until 11:30 PM EST at the earliest, so as long as I can download the document when I get home, it's all good.


----------



## historian

Won't be long now.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Let's see...7 pm GMT...so in California that'd be...*digs out time zone chart & calculator*...er...sometime. 

*comes back from timezoneconverter.com* 2-ish. Nice.


----------



## lade

If you have higher dimensions such as the tenth dimension which the mezzarath guard, will there exist elements that possess unique properties or powers unique to the plane they come from like zardazik , darksteel, thinuan ,hizagkuur , mithril ,cold iron e.t.c.and if by chance they are brought back to the lower 3D realms would they develop impressive and devastating powers as well.

I got this idea from a metal from the rpg book synnibar hell iron , little more than a mundane weapon in it's dimension but outside of it , anything forged of it will slay any mortal being regardless of strength or power and ignore the protections any material can offer, and all it takes to kill a foe is to nick them and they have their souls sucked no save, do or will similar elements exist in further books?


----------



## dante58701

half hour left....must not pop


----------



## dante58701

Wait...hour and 15 minutes - hour and a half...didnt see that last post... 

MUST HOLD ON...NEED FIX...AHHHHHH!!!!


*phlump!!!*


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Darn, well I still hold to my theory that you finished Ascension five years ago, and simply wish to torment your fans. "Gee guys it will be just a little longer... *mumbles* after I finish statting the god of oranges...."
I am on to you.
I know. It's what I would do. 
Well, I do hope it does get released somewhat close to 6:30-7:00 Gmt, as it appears *Looks up* as though some of your fans may explode.


----------



## dante58701

He is tormenting us...he's so very very very very mean.


----------



## Fieari

Oh, foo.  I've got to go out for a couple hours, and I'll miss the release moment...

Ah well.  I'll get it when I get back at least.  Something to look forewards to.

So, the SDAs (and higher) won't be in this release, nor will the porfolios... foo.  At least the templates are in.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi all! 

Okay, by now you should have all got the email. Its there to be downloaded. Just remember - don't be expecting miracles with this document just yet, its early days. I didn't even have time to spellcheck half of it and Alzrius is having fun at Gencon so a lot of it hasn't been edited either.

I won't be online the rest of the night but I'll catch up with everything tomorrow.


----------



## historian

Dude, the beta is wicked.

The event system is really cool.  I haven't had time to fully digest it but it's convenient (to say the least) when you can translate what effect parading around a town with Dracula's head on a stick would have on your party's divinity.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi all!
> 
> Okay, by now you should have all got the email. Its there to be downloaded.



EDIT: D'oh! There it is.


----------



## Fieari

A few things I noticed on my first read-through:



			
				page 16 said:
			
		

> There are two approaches to dealing with such players. Firstly,
> immortals do not take kindly to having anyone invade their realms and
> start killing their servants. This sort of affrontery is going to be swiftly
> addressed and dealt with. See Divine Intervention (pg. 21) for the sort of
> responses.



The second method of dealing with such players is not listed.



			
				page 27 said:
			
		

> N.B. Divinity templates do not stack on top of one another they overlap.



Grammar: Rephrase to "Divinity templates do not stack on top of one another, overlapping instead." or something similar.



			
				page 37 said:
			
		

> However, as the universe expanded dimensional
> tectonics caused bleeding and tears to appear, through which



Paragraph cuts off here mid-sentence.



			
				page 38 said:
			
		

> Elder ones, or simply elder gods, are the embodiments of ideas and
> concepts intrinsic to the universe. Each is the personification of .



Sentence left incomplete.



			
				page 90 said:
			
		

> Metempiric Abilities: Hypothetical esoteric ability possessed by the
> supreme being allowing them to wield the power of the akashic records
> and dictate



Another unfinished sentence.



			
				page 92 said:
			
		

> Certain metamartial maneouvers force the target to make a
> Fortitude DC to avoid the effect. The save DC for any effect is always



And another.



			
				page 94 said:
			
		

> You Hit Die increase by one step



Should be "Your Hit Die increases by one step".



			
				page 102 said:
			
		

> You cantime your dodges so that



Need a space between "can" and "time", and finish the sentence.



			
				page 102 said:
			
		

> You know your own thoughts an mind.



an should be and.

Furthermore, this feat is incredibly broken.  The only time the exact wording of a wish is important is if you seek to exceed the boundaries set out by the description of the wish spell.  This feat would enable a 9th level spell to grant the caster omnipotence, or to destroy all universes, or do... quite frankly... ANYTHING.  For lesser usages of wish, the feat is redundant.


----------



## Muad'dib Pendragon

Krust,

great work thus far!  I realize this is a beta, but when can we expect the other 155 pages of material?


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

cwfrizzell said:
			
		

> Krust,
> 
> great work thus far!  I realize this is a beta, but when can we expect the other 155 pages of material?



 A bit more every 10 days.


----------



## dante58701

I wet my pants in joy...lol!!!


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*on page 30...*

The prophet template lists _sending as usable at will and 2/day._


----------



## Fieari

Suggestion: for Anoxia, instead of just saying that dying for the purpose of gaining feats doesn't work, why not make it so that the feat is only gained if the character suffers permanent level loss from the death?  In that way, the feat is actually "purchased" at the cost of a level and the price of having him raised.

Looking at it that way, you could also state that this happens only for every two levels lost, or for every three... when death is only an inconvenience, such as at those high levels, gaining permanent benefits from it looks like a bad idea to me.  But basically "buying" the permanent benefits sounds reasonable enough...


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*reads description of Eclectic Shot*


----------



## Fieari

The Eclectic series is awesome.

I did a quick analysis of the PP gaining method, by the way.  Assuming a party of 4 and exactly 13 equal CR monsters per level, each member of the party will have 546 PP by the time they reach level 21.  Smaller groups with only 3 party members will gain 728, and if you're simply partnered with another (I'd bet you're using gestalt rules too, in order to survive this long!) both of you will have accumulated 1092, just enough to ascend to hero-deity level.

Sounds fair enough so far.  Of course, if you're facing fewer equal CR critters, with the occasional higher CR BBEG, this would probably change.  Wish there was an easy formula for #of monsters at each relative CR to level up...


----------



## Fieari

Nosodic could use some revision, as I think it's too weak.  The charisma thing in particular doesn't make sense... charisma has nothing to do with appearance, it's everything to do with force of personality.

Let's compare Nosodic with the Cancer Mage from the Book of Vile Darkness.  This is what the cancer mage gets:


> Disease Host (Ex): The cancer mage becomes a permanent carrier of every disease he encounters, but remains immune to their effects (aside from purely cosmetic effects). He takes 1d6 damage per caster level if someone casts a cure disease spell or effect on him (he can make a Fort save to avoid this damage).




This ability basically gives the CM a disease attack that he can collect.  You'll note that the "cosmetic effects" still happen, which you could note for Nosodic as well.

I'd also change the prereq from "Perfect Health" to "Disease Immunity", as there are other ways to get immunity to disease than the epic feat-- particularly the Cancer Mage!  I mean, this feat would fit that sort of build perfectly, except that it'd require a feat that would kill the CM, and it doesn't work for Charisma for some reason.

---

Venomous Wildshape should specify whether you can take it multiple times.  I don't see why you couldn't... each time, either taking a new stat to damage, or an additional d6 of damage... it is an epic feat after all.  An SDA (or feat package) could have a venom that deals damage to all 6 stats, or 3d6 to 2...


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*macrobes & the HD limit*

Since macrobes have 1,024x the HD of the base creature and only creatures that encompass entire universes can break the 1,000-HD limit, does that mean that nearly all macrobes are either time lords or inflated to the Xona-scale?


----------



## Anabstercorian

> Beyond the Beyond?
> Theoretically, are there beings more powerful still? Can we transcend
> true infinity? Can we escape into an eleventh dimension or a twelth?
> Those who pursue the mystery beyond the great library could uncover
> the Ultrals; peta-beings perhaps not unlike game designers who fashion
> their own akashic records. Or even encounter the Cosmic EGG itself,
> which is said to have hatched the first set of records.




*laughs like an idiot* Good one, Krusty!


----------



## dante58701

Given the superb balance of these deities, even a time lord isn't overwhelming in my campaigns, though they are excruciatingly powerful, when not confronted by exceptionally high level characters. As campaigns for me run from 0-10,000 level, they fit right in with the upper ranks.

Though as a house rule we allow them to retain their full power regardless of their size, since we already had "Eternals" of size small-size huge and they constantly change form to suit their moods and whims.

Kinda the theory of a universe in a grain of sand.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 

Okay, a rather large amount of posts to catch back up on, but I'll get through them - you know me. 

As I mentioned in the email, I have no doubt there are a lot of things to fix in the beta, so consider this playtest session a go! 

I'm actually amazed the response so far has been positive, trust me when I say the final document will be markedly superior in every way.

By the way, a few people on dicefreaks have commented that they have been unable to download. Has anyone else been experiencing similar problems? If so I suggest first contacting ENWorld Gamestore and if that doesn't help I will of course email you the document (I have all the email addresses on file).


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> By the way, a few people on dicefreaks have commented that they have been unable to download. Has anyone else been experiencing similar problems? If so I suggest first contacting ENWorld Gamestore and if that doesn't help I will of course email you the document (I have all the email addresses on file).




I got the download fine, but another problem in ENworld right now means I'm neither getting email notification for messages nor for the store: there's a few others saying the same thing in Meta.  So you'll pardon me if it takes me a little longer than normal to jump on you for saying something.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hiya mate! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> If I had a silver bullet I would give it freely




Keep it for Lycanthropes.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> but unfortunately I have no experience in RPG marketing.  It appears that you have the web channels pretty well saturated.  Would it be possible to offer the pdf versions on Amazon or another equivalent?




I don't know. I'll look into it.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Additional pdfs can be generated with virtually nothing in terms of marginal cost.  Were it me I don't think I would hesitate to broadcast them over any channel that offers direct sales to consumers.
> 
> Part of this will also likely be influenced by your agreement with Mongoose who I am sure will do a fine job promoting the hard copy.




I think the hard copy will only help matters because it will bring the books more into the public eye.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> In all candor I hate that you're having to do that on your own.  I like your art, but if this compromises your products' release by any material length of time then that not only compromises your economics but it also doesn't do Mongoose any favors.  It's made that much worse by the fact that, not only will it delay the release of the print versions of the Bestiary and Ascension but will have a domino effect on subsequent product releases.








			
				historian said:
			
		

> You might well be the best crafter of epic and immortal gaming materials in the world; seriously.




HOLD IT! What do you mean "_might well be the best crafter of epic and immortal gaming materials in the world_". Of course I'm the best!   

To paraphrase a certain comic you might well be familiar with:

"I'm the GOD-DAMN UPPER KRUST!"   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> To me that's the value you bring to the dance.  I think folks should let you do what you do best and subcontract that which could be more easily replicated.  IMO, that makes more sense for you and your publisher.




Well me knowing I'm the best is one thing, them knowing I'm the best is another. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Please understand that the foregoing is not at all a complaint over a release date.  I just don't want to see you as a starving artist.




Don't worry about it - I'll be okay. Already wheels are in motion. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Perhaps there is a way to collect an advance from Mongoose based on anticipated sales revenue?  Certainly they should be interested in the most expeditious release date possible.




Not an option.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> There are also several financial types (of one I am not) like venture capitalists or private equity type groups that operate on a smaller scale.  I'm sure they could provide some near-term help in exchange for an interest in your business.
> 
> The problem there is they may actually want an arm and a leg.  You tend to have to negotiate very hard with them.





I don't think thats feasible.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I have your alignment as lawful good with chaotic tendencies when it comes to release dates.  Don't beat yourself up over it any more than you already have.  It's what you do forward that counts.





If I beat myself up over it I am liable to get things done quicker. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I would just have the reviewers note that it's a beta pending completion.





I'm not worried about reviewers. The Bestiary has been out 8 months and I have only seen one online review - and that was from Alzrius!

Hopefully I'll see a few more reviews when the print version is released. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Alzrius seems to love it so far, and from what I've seen it looks great




Well lets hope you think the same after seeing it...   



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Good luck man and as always feel free to get in touch here or by e-mail if I can help.  In the interest of full disclosure you have my assurances that anything I can do will be pro bono (and of course not legal advice as I don't have a license to advise you).




I appreciate the offer mate. But I'll be fine.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!




Hey Ltheb dude! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Well, this is true. But inspirational material isn't too dificult to find on such topics. I don't know how many pictures of Zeus there are, but I am sure we have seen a few of them, and I don't think a picture of a Giant in a Toga throwing Lightning Bolts is too out there.








			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> (Compared to the nexus dragon. I am still trying to figure out which end is the "head." I think it the part encircled by the 6 wings? That does kindof look like an eye or maw)




Its meant to be confusing.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, perhaps a minor question, since Grimoir is next, and no doubt you have been thinking of such related things. Are artifacts like the Robes of the Almight (Nimrod) or the Ram Headed-Throne (Sandalphon) unique, or are those powers duplicatable at a certain level of divinity?




The items would be unique (in terms of their history) but the powers are almost always going to be duplicable.

That said I have a lot of items and ideas in Grimoire that are item specific.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Just curious, as I think they are so awsome. (The line about it being foolish to attack Sandalphon on his home plane is an instant classic).








			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Sadly, with the Enworld board "hiccup" your post reguarding Deity artifact ratings based on ECL is no longer here. It came out to having a bonus equal to ~1/3 ECL, right? All I remember is an example of an ECL 800 deity being able to have Omnific-level artifacts.




I have that detailed in the Ascension beta.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I think you listed some sort of equivalent Artifact-feat-equivalency that lead to that number.  Also, does having an Infinity-power grant other, lesser benifits? Like if you had infinite Intellect, would you just know everything, even what the DM has planned?




Indeed. I just hope I don't have to list them all.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I am sure a couple of these will be answered tomorrow, but since Grimoir is like 4-6 months away, I dunno.




I'd like to have Grimoire done before December.

DOH! Did I just give a release date. More fool me.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Just a random estimate. I remember trying to price Epic Magic item powers myself. This was back in 3.0, where weapon "Plus" mattered, so my reasoning is that having a power with an equivallency of +10 would cripple your ability to injure things, and so gave those levels of weapon power amazing abilities. I remember I had a "Legendary" enhancement, that did 3 things, for a +10 equivallency: Natural 19's counted as 20's (on attacks for weapons, saves for armors), Criticals were automatically confirmed (minor, but Icing on the cake) and any kind of smite damage done with such a weapon was doubled.
> Your never-miss-except-on-a-one power sure blows that out of the water!
> Well, its late here, and If I stay up too terribly late, I will end up waking up at 1:01, thus robbing myself of sixty whole seconds of *Cue Palpatine Scream* "Unlimited Power!"




Just as well they changed that version of Damage Reduction.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> EDIT: WOW I missed a whole page?!?!
> All of those abilities seem nice and merit inclusion, however, Superior Cleave and Power Attack are both class features of a certain Frenzied Berserker PrC. (At least in name I believe, though I think its Power Attack ability is better than yours)
> The feint power seems the most powerful, I might have to say even broken, since, without a bit of common sense on part of the DM, it allows the rogue to sunder walls very well. "Forget disarming traps! Ill just destroy them!" Though it does help said rogue stand a chance, should they ever be forced into a Knife Fight with a Neutronium Golem.
> Other than that, they sound totally awesome. And it sounds to me they are the basic feats! Oh boy, If those are indeed the basic epic feats, then I cant wait to get to ultra-mindblowingly-blinding speed!




Some of those vanilla feats are needed as prerequisites to more powerful divine abilities.

Although trying to keep track of 475 abilities and how they all tie into one another is a tad tricky. Now that I have the feats 'down' (for want of a better word) if not exactly finished, I can concentrate on the divine abilities. I think I have about 230, so I'll cut out the weak ones and get that a bit closer to 200.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> EDIT, MARK II: It seems my insomnia has returned... *Yawn* I think Underwalker sounds much more appropo, though earthwalker could be the name of some rediculously high-prereq feat that like grants X10 overland travel. "So you say you walked 240 miles yesterday? Who do you think you are, Forest Gump?"




I prefer Underwalker too.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> As for bard stuff, with a dozen or so feats in there, plus I know of a few from other supplements that are surprisingly good, Epic bards should be in good shape. I wonder, would granting a bard the ability to invoke the "brown noise" be an epic feat, or a divine ability?




Improved Flatulence, I'm saving that one for a later book.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey thundershot! 



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> I've been lurking for quite a bit, (with a couple replies here and there) and I can't wait until I see these books in print. I apoligize for not supporting PDF, but in my home, they just never get used.... ever.




No apologies necessary dude! 



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Except for the Riding Hare from "In the Saddle"... Yeah. As soon as the first volume of the Immortals Handbook is out, I'm on it. My only fear is that the other books don't make it to print.... I'm tempted to just preorder it from Mongoose... I wonder though... why didn't they like the cover? Is it because there's too much black? Or the art in general?




Mongoose liked the cover, the distributors didn't like the cover. Basically they want a full page illustration cover and a stand out logo on the front (thats the format they know from experience sells best).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey lade! 



			
				lade said:
			
		

> If you have higher dimensions such as the tenth dimension which the mezzarath guard, will there exist elements that possess unique properties or powers unique to the plane they come from like zardazik , darksteel, thinuan ,hizagkuur , mithril ,cold iron e.t.c.and if by chance they are brought back to the lower 3D realms would they develop impressive and devastating powers as well.




I'm working on a few ideas for Grimoire. 



			
				lade said:
			
		

> I got this idea from a metal from the rpg book synnibar hell iron , little more than a mundane weapon in it's dimension but outside of it , anything forged of it will slay any mortal being regardless of strength or power and ignore the protections any material can offer, and all it takes to kill a foe is to nick them and they have their souls sucked no save, do or will similar elements exist in further books?




I generally try to make things as unspecific as possible:

Obvious substances earmarked for the bestiary include: Anti-Matter, Dark Matter, Living Stone (aka. Philosopher's Stone) and Strange Matter. Although those are only some of the ones I plan to adapt. I hope to have at least ten new materials as well as ideas for taking the hide of any creature (A solar's skin for instance) and turning it into armour and so forth.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 

Thanks for the feedback and help with errata. I knew there would be a lot of mistakes since I didn't even have ime to spellcheck quite a few of the pages (espacially in the feats/metamartial maneouvers).



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Furthermore, this feat is incredibly broken.  The only time the exact wording of a wish is important is if you seek to exceed the boundaries set out by the description of the wish spell.  This feat would enable a 9th level spell to grant the caster omnipotence, or to destroy all universes, or do... quite frankly... ANYTHING.  For lesser usages of wish, the feat is redundant.




I don't know, I was more concerned with removing the idea of having your words corrupted.

I mean deities make wishes all the time and they don't backfire.

Not every gamer is a supra genius, so its harsh to punish them for the exact wording.

So it isn't taking away the boundaries of the spells power, just not letting them backfire.


----------



## Upper_Krust

cwfrizzell said:
			
		

> Krust,




Hey cw mate! 



			
				cwfrizzell said:
			
		

> great work thus far!




Thanks, although early days yet.



			
				cwfrizzell said:
			
		

> I realize this is a beta, but when can we expect the other 155 pages of material?




I plan to update every ten days until I have the document finished. The fact that this is version 0.6 should give a clue as to when I expect to have things finished.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Suggestion: for Anoxia, instead of just saying that dying for the purpose of gaining feats doesn't work, why not make it so that the feat is only gained if the character suffers permanent level loss from the death?  In that way, the feat is actually "purchased" at the cost of a level and the price of having him raised.
> 
> Looking at it that way, you could also state that this happens only for every two levels lost, or for every three... when death is only an inconvenience, such as at those high levels, gaining permanent benefits from it looks like a bad idea to me.  But basically "buying" the permanent benefits sounds reasonable enough...




Yes, I was considering the -1 Con as sufficient 'payment'. But I just didn't have time to go back and amend the feat.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> The Eclectic series is awesome.




Glad you and Servitor like them.   

Personally I think Sideways Stealing might be my favourite.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I did a quick analysis of the PP gaining method, by the way. Assuming a party of 4 and exactly 13 equal CR monsters per level, each member of the party will have 546 PP by the time they reach level 21. Smaller groups with only 3 party members will gain 728, and if you're simply partnered with another (I'd bet you're using gestalt rules too, in order to survive this long!) both of you will have accumulated 1092, just enough to ascend to hero-deity level.




Cool, although I assume that is the result if you are fighting nothing but Outsiders?

..and remember, just having enough Quintessence doesn't mean you will pass the three tests. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Sounds fair enough so far. Of course, if you're facing fewer equal CR critters, with the occasional higher CR BBEG, this would probably change. Wish there was an easy formula for #of monsters at each relative CR to level up...




I think its going to be too specific to each campaign to have an exact formula.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Fieari said:
			
		

> Nosodic could use some revision, as I think it's too weak.  The charisma thing in particular doesn't make sense... charisma has nothing to do with appearance, it's everything to do with force of personality.
> 
> Let's compare Nosodic with the Cancer Mage from the Book of Vile Darkness.  This is what the cancer mage gets:
> 
> Disease Host (Ex): The cancer mage becomes a permanent carrier of every disease he encounters, but remains immune to their effects (aside from purely cosmetic effects). He takes 1d6 damage per caster level if someone casts a cure disease spell or effect on him (he can make a Fort save to avoid this damage).
> 
> This ability basically gives the CM a disease attack that he can collect.




Interesting. Although I have the BoVD I have never studied that particular Prestige Class. But with a bit of tweaking the two could work well together.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> You'll note that the "cosmetic effects" still happen, which you could note for Nosodic as well.




That was my idea about the Charisma. It was just a snap idea that I didn't have time to go back and check.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I'd also change the prereq from "Perfect Health" to "Disease Immunity", as there are other ways to get immunity to disease than the epic feat-- particularly the Cancer Mage!  I mean, this feat would fit that sort of build perfectly, except that it'd require a feat that would kill the CM, and it doesn't work for Charisma for some reason.




Okay.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Venomous Wildshape should specify whether you can take it multiple times.  I don't see why you couldn't... each time, either taking a new stat to damage, or an additional d6 of damage... it is an epic feat after all.  An SDA (or feat package) could have a venom that deals damage to all 6 stats, or 3d6 to 2...




Indeed, I was planning something along those lines.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya dude! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Since macrobes have 1,024x the HD of the base creature and only creatures that encompass entire universes can break the 1,000-HD limit, does that mean that nearly all macrobes are either time lords or inflated to the Xona-scale?




I assumed Macrobes would indeed be extra-universal and thus not really bound by that limit. Even the Devastation Vermin entry notes they are from an alternate multiverse.

While I think my Size rules in the Bestiary 'work', I am not convinced as to their practicality when you go into the Mega and higher scalings.


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> Keep it for Lycanthropes.




 



> HOLD IT! What do you mean "might well be the best crafter of epic and immortal gaming materials in the world". Of course I'm the best!
> 
> To paraphrase a certain comic you might well be familiar with:
> 
> "I'm the GOD-DAMN UPPER KRUST!"




 

After seeing the Ascension beta there is no question!  

You're the peta-man!



> I think the hard copy will only help matters because it will bring the books more into the public eye.




Unquestionably.



> Well lets hope you think the same after seeing it...




I do.  Hard to believe but it exceeded even my lofy expectations.  It's fantastic.



> Don't worry about it - I'll be okay. Already wheels are in motion.
> 
> I appreciate the offer mate. But I'll be fine.




Good deal.  If anything changes I'd be thrilled to help in any way that I can.



> By the way, a few people on dicefreaks have commented that they have been unable to download. Has anyone else been experiencing similar problems? If so I suggest first contacting ENWorld Gamestore and if that doesn't help I will of course email you the document (I have all the email addresses on file).




I haven't had any problems.


Three quick questions:

1.  Page 26 Table 2-12 -- Do the ability scores reflected in the displacement table reflect the divine bonus added to ability scores?  I read the language "it should be noted that this is before factoring size or feats/divine abilities" to mean that it doesn't but I wanted to confirm.

2.  Have you settled on a CR multiplier/metric for the addition of transcendental/omnific abilities at this point?

3.  I have assumed that the ECL/CR bonuses provided by each template take into account any transcendental abilities afforded that template but I'm not sure.  For example, the Stage 1 Demiurge has one fixed transdimensional ability and gets to choose two from a list of 5 others.  Are either the fixed ability or the optional abilities factored into the ECL/CR bonus?


Thanks man, I absolutely love it.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy GQuail! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> I got the download fine, but another problem in ENworld right now means I'm neither getting email notification for messages nor for the store: there's a few others saying the same thing in Meta.  So you'll pardon me if it takes me a little longer than normal to jump on you for saying something.






I'll go down to meta and see if I can do anything to help.


----------



## Upper_Krust

historian said:
			
		

> Hey U_K!




Hey dude! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Three quick questions:




Fire away! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 1.  Page 26 Table 2-12 -- Do the ability scores reflected in the displacement table reflect the divine bonus added to ability scores?  I read the language "it should be noted that this is before factoring size or feats/divine abilities" to mean that it doesn't but I wanted to confirm.




Yes.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 2.  Have you settled on a CR multiplier/metric for the addition of transcendental/omnific abilities at this point?




I haven't settled on the best solution yet, but I will before the book is finished.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> 3.  I have assumed that the ECL/CR bonuses provided by each template take into account any transcendental abilities afforded that template but I'm not sure.  For example, the Stage 1 Demiurge has one fixed transdimensional ability and gets to choose two from a list of 5 others.  Are either the fixed ability or the optional abilities factored into the ECL/CR bonus?




All abilities are factored into the CR/ECL.

However this assumes a non-multiplier solution to Transcendental and Omnific Abilities.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Thanks man, I absolutely love it.


----------



## dante58701

Im playing a 40HD demigod, he has a bit of monk flavor and his portfolio elements are secrets and time. Im gonna send him through that spider queen adventure, whatever it's called. The one with the albino drow chick that worships Kiaransalee. No other party members will be in this so it might be tough. Ill let you know how it turns out.

As I see it no changes need to be made to the templates, except perhaps a quick spell check.

I cant wait to see the divine abilities.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Glad you and Servitor like them.
> 
> Personally I think Sideways Stealing might be my favourite.



SS is great too, but when you explicitly permitted using live animals...

I cannot get out of my head the image of a character with Oversized Weapon and Eclectic Shot loading a sheep into a handheld ballista and shooting it through the front gate of Minas Tirith.

And Amazing Pockets becomes crazy when combined with the Packrat PrC from FFG.


----------



## Eversius

Hey UK!

Can you give a little more information on the correct way to stack the Time Lord divinity template? The High Lord rules seem a little incomplete, as of yet.

Also, do immortals receive feats appropriate for their hit dice like any other creature, or do you have to exchange divine abilities?

I can't wait for illustrations of eternals!


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I don't know, I was more concerned with removing the idea of having your words corrupted.
> 
> I mean deities make wishes all the time and they don't backfire.
> 
> Not every gamer is a supra genius, so its harsh to punish them for the exact wording.
> 
> So it isn't taking away the boundaries of the spells power, just not letting them backfire.



I think you might be misunderstanding the "Wish" spell a little bit here.



			
				3.5 SRD said:
			
		

> Wish is the mightiest spell a wizard or sorcerer can cast. By simply speaking aloud, you can alter reality to better suit you.
> 
> Even wish, however, has its limits.
> 
> A wish can produce any one of the following effects.
> * (LIST OF SAFE THINGS TO DO GO HERE)
> 
> You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)



The key thing to note, is that by RAW, if you use Wish to do anything within the 'safe list', it will never pervert your intent or wording.  The only time it will EVER do so is if you exceed those limits.  The trouble is, beyond those limits, there are no other limits at all, except for the 'pervert your intent' clause!  It's a safety valve, nothing more.

What I'm saying is that without this feat, deities can make wishes all the time, and NEVER have them backfire, just like mortals can, and without having to use convoluted wording.  All they have to do is stay within the limits of the spell, written out there in that list.  Going beyond that list is the only time wording matters... but then, going beyond that list means you're trying something insanely broken anyway.



> I assumed Macrobes would indeed be extra-universal and thus not really bound by that limit. Even the Devastation Vermin entry notes they are from an alternate multiverse.
> 
> While I think my Size rules in the Bestiary 'work', I am not convinced as to their practicality when you go into the Mega and higher scalings.



The trouble with this assumption is that Scifi frequently has creatures of very large size, and of course, one of the goals of these rules is to make it possible to stat out anything you can imagine.  I mean, my take on A'tuin the Star Turtle is exemplar of this.  That worm thing from Star Wars that the Millenium Falcon landed in (in the asteroid) would be another.  That sort of thing.  So the size rules are needed...

You could rephrase it that Outsider HD or Class Level HD can't exceed that value?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im playing a 40HD demigod, he has a bit of monk flavor and his portfolio elements are secrets and time.




Cool! 

Whats the name of the character? Also what classes do they have? Or just Hit Dice?



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im gonna send him through that spider queen adventure, whatever it's called. The one with the albino drow chick that worships Kiaransalee. No other party members will be in this so it might be tough. Ill let you know how it turns out.




That adventure is for 11th-level characters though.

For a single 40 HD demigod I would suggest you send the character through the Quicksilver Hourglass epic adventure in Dungeon magazine. As a solo adventure that sould be about right for your character also the secrets and time stuff are perfect for you! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> As I see it no changes need to be made to the templates, except perhaps a quick spell check.




There probably are a few that only I would notice. Some of those paragraphs are not really finished yet, the Dimensional Mastery stuff isn't settled yet and the High Lord template is not yet complete.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> I cant wait to see the divine abilities.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Servitor matey! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> SS is great too, but when you explicitly permitted using live animals...
> 
> I cannot get out of my head the image of a character with Oversized Weapon and Eclectic Shot loading a sheep into a handheld ballista and shooting it through the front gate of Minas Tirith.




He he! 

The Eclectic feats are from a combination of movies like: Swordsman 2 (Where Jet Li shoots longswords from his shortbow), God of Gamblers (Where Chow Yun Fat throws playing cards as weapons I think) and of course Hot Shots: Part Deux (where Charlie Sheen shoots the chicken from his bow).



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> And Amazing Pockets becomes crazy when combined with the Packrat PrC from FFG.




Dare I even ask...


----------



## Upper_Krust

Eversius said:
			
		

> Hey UK!




Hiya mate! 



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> Can you give a little more information on the correct way to stack the Time Lord divinity template? The High Lord rules seem a little incomplete, as of yet.




Sorry about that, the High Lord Template is not complete. Don't worry I'll finish that off for the next update.



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> Also, do immortals receive feats appropriate for their hit dice like any other creature, or do you have to exchange divine abilities?




They get feats like any other creature, and then divine ability slots on top of that.



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> I can't wait for illustrations of eternals!




I have the illustrations for the first two chapters thumbnailed but not yet drawn. So I have a rough idea what its going to look like.

The only thing I am wondering about is whether or not to give Thor the same static pose in each of the Divine Class illustrations. I usually prefer more action orientated poses.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dude! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> I think you might be misunderstanding the "Wish" spell a little bit here.
> 
> The key thing to note, is that by RAW, if you use Wish to do anything within the 'safe list', it will never pervert your intent or wording.  The only time it will EVER do so is if you exceed those limits.  The trouble is, beyond those limits, there are no other limits at all, except for the 'pervert your intent' clause!  It's a safety valve, nothing more.
> 
> What I'm saying is that without this feat, deities can make wishes all the time, and NEVER have them backfire, just like mortals can, and without having to use convoluted wording.  All they have to do is stay within the limits of the spell, written out there in that list.  Going beyond that list is the only time wording matters... but then, going beyond that list means you're trying something insanely broken anyway.




I can always cut that feat from the final draft. It being the last one makes it even easier to omit since I don't have to re-number everything. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> The trouble with this assumption is that Scifi frequently has creatures of very large size, and of course, one of the goals of these rules is to make it possible to stat out anything you can imagine.  I mean, my take on A'tuin the Star Turtle is exemplar of this.  That worm thing from Star Wars that the Millenium Falcon landed in (in the asteroid) would be another.  That sort of thing.  So the size rules are needed...
> 
> You could rephrase it that Outsider HD or Class Level HD can't exceed that value?




I like the idea.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Dare I even ask...



It has an ability that lets you "find" any nonmagical piece of equipment on your person that you could have held there. No pulling chairs out of your pocket, for instance...unless you have this feat.


----------



## dante58701

Im trying to generalize the megasaur you made Krusty...for more common use.

Is this right so far? The numerics are right off the site, so I guess Im asking if it's still current.


Megasaur
Macro-Fine Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 160d10+2560+4320 (7760 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 240 ft. (48 squares), swim 240 ft.
Armor Class: 115 (-32 size, +147 natural), touch -22, flat-footed 115
Base Attack/Grapple: +160/+218
Attack: Stomp +160 melee (15d10+51) or claw +154 melee (8d8+34)
Full Attack: Bite +160 melee (10d10+17), 2 claws +160 melee (8d8+34), stomp +160 melee (15d10+51) and tail sweep +160 melee (8d6+51)
Space/Reach: 240 ft./320 ft.
Special Attacks: Atomic breaths, energy pulse, frightful presence, improved grab, rend, stomp, swallow whole, tail sweep.
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 80/-, immunity to poison, disease, energy drain and ability damage, regeneration 160, resistance to acid, cold, fire and electricity 80.
Saves: Fort +102, Ref +82, Will +57
Abilities: Str 79, Dex 11, Con 42, Int 4, Wis 18, Cha 18
Skills: Jump +55, Listen +31, Search +24, Spot +31, Survival +31, Swim +55.
Feats: Alertness, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Clinging Breath, Combat Reflexes, Fling Enemy, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Improved Multi-attack, Improved Natural Attack (x4: Bite, Claw, Stomp and Tail Sweep), Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Improved Toughness (x27), Multi-attack, Power Attack, Recover Breath (x2), Rend (claws), Shockwave, Tail Sweep Knockdown.
Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Fortitude.
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 88
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral
Advancement: 161-255 HD (Macro-Fine), 256-511 HD (Macro-Diminutive).
Effective Class Level: 160

Standing over 300 ft. tall, this great reptile almost rises into the clouds. Its hide is covered in thick dark green scales, its back ridged with pale bone-like plating tapering down the length of its tail. With menacing glare and mighty roar it issues its challenge of supremacy.

Combat

Megasaur attacks. You run or die.

Atomic Breath (Su): 1920-ft. line of atomic energy, dealing:

- Disintegration: 320d6 damage (avg. 1120), or 40d6 (avg. 140) on a successful Fortitude save (DC 106)

- Force damage: 160d4 force damage (avg. 400); Fortitude save for half damage (DC 106)

- Heat damage: 160d6 fire damage (avg. 560); Fortitude save for half damage (DC 106)

- Radiation: 2d12 (avg. 13) points of ability damage to strength, dexterity and constitution.

There is a 1d4-2 round delay between each use of this breath weapon. The save DCs are Constitution based.

Energy Pulse (Su): 480-ft. radius wave of atomic energy, dealing 40d20 force damage (Average 420). Fortitude save for half damage: DC 106.

Frightful Presence (Su): Megasaur can inspire terror by charging or attacking. Affected creatures must succeed on a DC 94 Will save or become shaken, remaining in that condition as long as they remain within sight of the megasaur. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Rend (Ex): Should a megasaur hit the same target with both claw attacks the target suffers a further 16d8+42 damage.

Stomp (Ex): Targets two size categories (or more) smaller than the megasaur can be stomped into the ground for 16d8+42 damage.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A megasaur can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 4d8+17 points of crushing damage plus 4d8+7 points of acid damage per round from the megasaur's digestive juices. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by dealing 100 points of damage to the megasaur's digestive tract (AC 25). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. The megasaur's gullet can hold 2 Huge, 8 Large, 32 Medium, 128 Small, or 512 Tiny or smaller creatures.

Tail Sweep (Ex): A megasaur’s tail sweep affects all targets within a semi-circular area.

Tactics Round by Round (useful for megasaurs in general)

Megasaurs ignore any opposition until first attacked (unless there is a history of enmity whereupon he issues the challenge by roaring and charges into battle).

Round 1: Full attack against targets within reach, if no targets are within reach the megasaur charges into battle and then employs a full attack (Dire Charge). If no targets are within melee range (flying for instance), the megasaur  attacks with his ranged weaponry (see Round 2).

Round 2: Use breath weapon on single opponent, or use the energy pulse if facing multiple opponents.

Rounds 3 and 4: Repeat rounds 1 and 2 where appropriate.

Round 5: Should opposition still exist by this stage the megasaur employs his augmented breath weapon.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
You win at life. Flawless Victory. Fatality. The first feat in the book did me in. The rest was simply Forward, Forward, Forward, High-kick.


----------



## sukael

A few thoughts on the epic feats...

Improved Toughness is already around, non-OGL, and non-epic--I think it's in Complete Warrior.

And I think I saw a Weapon Mastery feat around... there's already a nonepic feat of the same name (if not the same effect) in the PHB2, and another feat that has a similar effect.


----------



## Pssthpok

I'm kinda worried about Superior Sunder. Seems... disgustingly nasty to me, even for an epic feat. 
Otherwise, this is some top-notch stuff, here. I'm stoked to see the rest of the text and get busy building my setting's pantheon.
I almost think, given dense population figures, the Event system leads very very quickly to a lot of quintessence, but hey: we have a huge (7,000,000 pop.) elven city IMC and just recently saved it from invasion. Doing the math gives the elven archmage of an enemy kingdom who opted into helping out roughly 500 QP, while his human meatshield from the same kingdom gleans about 250 QP. Not too severe, but I can't imagine how well-off some of the local heroes came out. Nonetheless, the Event system is quite possibly the finest machine you have in the whole book (thus far), UK. Good show.


----------



## Eversius

Hello again, UK.

Where can I find more information about your CR system?

Also, how do Time Lords visit lower dimensions?


----------



## Dragonmoon

*Immortal Rules*

Hy Upper Crust!

A great work! I'm an old player of the Wrath of Immortals at D&D time and your books have the same unforgettable flavour.

I've some question for you about some game rules and avatars/aspects.

- An immortal of lesser god status or above with outsider HD and class levels has only the firsts  changed to d20 or also the seconds? 

- How many avatars and aspects can support a god?

- For an immortal with outsider hit dies the spell-like abilities of an avatar/aspect are the same of the manifestation with a different casting level? 
- An immortal can spend an amount of quintessence that can make its quintessence total under  the minimum for its divine rank?    

The lack of an author like you for players like me that love adventures at divine level was felt.  I and my friends have taken your two first works and we do not see the hour of being able to taste the successive ones. It continues therefore!


----------



## Arg-ha Lardgoa

*Outsiders*

One quick thing I might mention is monks and other classes gain the outsider type at end of their non-epic progress and therefore by the rules you present gain the appropriate divine template of their HD/levels, maybe a change of wording in the templates section would be in need?


----------



## Fieari

No, it says that they're divine only if their divine status is not otherwise known.  With regards to a monk, the divine status IS known.  Apotheosis has not occured, so the monk is not divine, despite being an outsider.


----------



## Arg-ha Lardgoa

yes, I realise that, but from someone who wants to exploit the rules and says he has done many acts in his own name and has QP and has followers, and other excuses he could say he should have a divine template. I am saying maybe the words should say an outsider that is a 'natural' outsider. some groups start play in the high levels and the created character would have no known or unknown divine status


----------



## Fieari

He still needs to undergo apotheosis, regardless.  If he's got the quintessence, and meets the other optional requirements the GM has in play, then why not?


----------



## dante58701

This is a cosmic ability I made for a devil. Is it appropriately balanced being a cosmic ability or is it underpowered?


Cosmic Form (Ex): Sarkonas possesses the ability to assume any form desired, as a free action, as per shapechange, at will. Furthermore, he retains his full power regardless of the size of his assumed form, acquires enough virtual size categories to compensate him for any actual loss in size, and is treated, for all intents and purposes, as being in his true form, regardless of the form he assumes. Additionally, he acquires the shapechanger subtype and is impervious to critical hits, dismemberment, and wounding. Finally, Sarkonas can also assume any unique and/or divine form, provided the form in question is not the form of a divinity with a higher divine rank than Sarkonas.


----------



## thundershot

Got it. Started reading it. Just into chapter two....


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Danted dude! 

I don't have the time to go over the megasaur in deatail but it looks okay, from the quick read through I gave it. 

Hey Ltheb matey! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> You win at life. Flawless Victory. Fatality. The first feat in the book did me in.




Glad you like it...although the Divine and Cosmic stuff is much better. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The rest was simply Forward, Forward, Forward, High-kick.




Street Fighter 2 was always more my game than Mortal Kombat but are you refering to Baraka's Babality?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey sukael! 



			
				sukael said:
			
		

> A few thoughts on the epic feats...





Thanks - I appreciate the feedback mate. 



			
				sukael said:
			
		

> Improved Toughness is already around, non-OGL, and non-epic--I think it's in Complete Warrior.
> 
> And I think I saw a Weapon Mastery feat around... there's already a nonepic feat of the same name (if not the same effect) in the PHB2, and another feat that has a similar effect.




Well, in fairness, I don't own either of the above books, nor have I read one page of either. Also while Ascension is only being released now, I decided upon a lot of these feats years ago. So its more an indigtment against my sloth in releasing the book than any plagiarism.

That said, I don't know what to do for the best...I'll have a think on it. I may change Weapon Mastery to Epic Weapon Mastery.


----------



## Pssthpok

Will there be Divine/Cosmic/etc abilities that allow entities to bypass the minimum size category limitations?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Pssthpok mate! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> I'm kinda worried about Superior Sunder. Seems... disgustingly nasty to me, even for an epic feat.




I was considering changing it to Perfect Sunder and then having another Superior Sunder feat inbetween. But I can't think what I would do for another Sunder feat.

One other point of note - you can't sunder artifacts. 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Otherwise, this is some top-notch stuff, here. I'm stoked to see the rest of the text and get busy building my setting's pantheon.








			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> I almost think, given dense population figures, the Event system leads very very quickly to a lot of quintessence, but hey: we have a huge (7,000,000 pop.) elven city IMC and just recently saved it from invasion.




Thats one heck of a big city though. What was the invading force? Remember the population affected is limited by the Event Rating. 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Doing the math gives the elven archmage of an enemy kingdom who opted into helping out roughly 500 QP, while his human meatshield from the same kingdom gleans about 250 QP. Not too severe, but I can't imagine how well-off some of the local heroes came out. Nonetheless, the Event system is quite possibly the finest machine you have in the whole book (thus far), UK. Good show.




Thanks - I am pretty proud of it. I am curious to hear what everyone thinks about the Event System in particular. Is it user friendly enough?

I mean you only need use it at the end of an adventure (so perhaps 1/month on average) and even then it shouldn't take even a novice more than 5-10 minutes per character to work out the results.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Eversius said:
			
		

> Hello again, UK.




Hi Eversius mate! 



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> Where can I find more information about your CR system?




Well I am planning on including Version 6 of my Challenge Rating System at the back of the Epic Bestiary Volume 3.

I'd be happy to email you Version 5 of the CR system - however, it doesn't really mesh with a lot of my current thinking.



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> Also, how do Time Lords visit lower dimensions?




Well Time Lords are bigger on the inside than they are on the outside. So their manifestations can easily enter another universe. 

The specifics are only limited by your imagination, although I'll be sure and include a few ideas in the final version of Ascension.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> Hy Upper Crust!




Hello there Dragonmoon...and welcome to the boards!  



			
				Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> A great work! I'm an old player of the Wrath of Immortals at D&D time and your books have the same unforgettable flavour.




Thanks! I am a big fan of that book myself.



			
				Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> I've some question for you about some game rules and avatars/aspects.




Fire away!



			
				Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> - An immortal of lesser god status or above with outsider HD and class levels has only the firsts  changed to d20 or also the seconds?




Both.

Initially I was planning to have characters take a feat called Superior Toughness (which was a feat I removed the night before release) which increased your Hit Dice to the next die type. But I didn't think it made much sense because it did much the same as Improved Toughness, albeit in a different way.

Also it sorted of complicated matters, because you couldn't take Divine Toughness until you had d12 dice (Which is of course far more balanced for Barbarians). 

But I wanted Divine Toughness to be much easier to access, so I made it a standard ability of the Immortal Templates.



			
				Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> - How many avatars and aspects can support a god?




Well I would suggest one Avatar per God and one Aspect per Religion/Faith setup in the gods name.

Mechanically of course you could have far more than that. I think the limit would be 9 Avatars. I'm not sure about the maximum number of Aspects, possibly 999.



			
				Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> - For an immortal with outsider hit dies the spell-like abilities of an avatar/aspect are the same of the manifestation with a different casting level?




Yes, although make sure the Casting Level of the Avatar/Aspect is high enough to cast those spells.



			
				Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> - An immortal can spend an amount of quintessence that can make its quintessence total under  the minimum for its divine rank?




Yes. Then you would drop down a rank, which isn't something any god would willingly want to do.



			
				Dragonmoon said:
			
		

> The lack of an author like you for players like me that love adventures at divine level was felt.  I and my friends have taken your two first works and we do not see the hour of being able to taste the successive ones. It continues therefore!




Well I'll try and keep these books coming a bit more regularly in the future. Thanks for the kind words, I appreciate the interest.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey guys! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> He still needs to undergo apotheosis, regardless.  If he's got the quintessence, and meets the other optional requirements the GM has in play, then why not?




What he said.


----------



## Pssthpok

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey Pssthpok mate!
> 
> One other point of note - you can't sunder artifacts.




Ah, okay. I can see this being okay, now.



> Thats one heck of a big city though. What was the invading force? Remember the population affected is limited by the Event Rating.




The city was modelled after modern metropoli; it's basically what I see happening when long-life races breed regularly and augment their standard of living with magic (ala clerics, and conjuration spells). 
The invasion force was the entire population of an equally-old dwarven empire led by a number of epic generals and spearheaded by a quasideity king. The dwarves had some help from a sort of Benedict Arnold among the elves - one who was sick of the stangant regime in the city. When the dwarf king was slain by a minmaxed NPC, the generals lost control of the force and took large swathes of it un new directions. Some surrendered for amnesty, some fled into the mountains, some holed up in the ruins of the war-torn city. 
I redid the math today and got higher results, which I was pleased to note incorporated the maximum population proviso as well as the society modifiers for each of the main protagonists. 



> Thanks - I am pretty proud of it. I am curious to hear what everyone thinks about the Event System in particular. Is it user friendly enough?




It gets the job done. I have to keep in mind that QP doesn't equate to divinity until an apotheosis. Until then, it's a measure of the (N)PC's standing in the eyes of both mortals and immortals alike. Like merit badges.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante matey! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> This is a cosmic ability I made for a devil. Is it appropriately balanced being a cosmic ability or is it underpowered?
> 
> *Cosmic Form (Ex):* Sarkonas possesses the ability to assume any form desired, as a free action, as per shapechange, at will. Furthermore, he retains his full power regardless of the size of his assumed form, acquires enough virtual size categories to compensate him for any actual loss in size, and is treated, for all intents and purposes, as being in his true form, regardless of the form he assumes.




This bit is confusing me?



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Additionally, he acquires the shapechanger subtype and is impervious to critical hits, dismemberment, and wounding.




Something like this is a divine ability on its own.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Finally, Sarkonas can also assume any unique and/or divine form, provided the form in question is not the form of a divinity with a higher divine rank than Sarkonas.




I already have this bit as a cosmic ability in the book called *Doppelganger*. 

I was going to say that you should refer to the *Creating Your Own Abilities* section of Ascension. But then I realised I cut that page at the last moment because it was only 90% finished.   

Basically you want to keep abilities as specific as possible. What you have above loks more a combinaion of abilities rather than a distinct, unique ability.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey thundershot! 



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Got it. Started reading it. Just into chapter two....




Well, let me know what you think when you get a chance.

I am interested to hear peoples thoughts.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*feat text*

Impaling Shot and Mantic Frenzy seem to be missing some of their text. Would it be possible to describe them here or should I just shut up and wait for the next update?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again matey! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Will there be Divine/Cosmic/etc abilities that allow entities to bypass the minimum size category limitations?




No.

What you could do is take Amorphous shape, create a pool and then rise a medium size form out of it, although your bulk would still be in the pool.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Impaling Shot and Mantic Frenzy seem to be missing some of their text. Would it be possible to describe them here or should I just shut up and wait for the next update?




Sorry about missing those.

Impaling Shot can pin a target to adjacent terrain and requires you to take out the arrows/bolts which causes more damage.

Mantic Frenzy is like the spellcaster equivalent of going berserk.


----------



## Pssthpok

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hello again matey!
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> What you could do is take Amorphous shape, create a pool and then rise a medium size form out of it, although your bulk would still be in the pool.




Wow, okay. Would this reduce your power any?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Street Fighter 2 was always more my game than Mortal Kombat but are you refering to Baraka's Babality?



Sadly, no, just the only Fatality I could pull off in MK : DA 
And now, my thoughts on feats:
#
1 - You win.
2 - Abusable, perhaps a clause that says "... raise dead or ressurection, but not true ressurection..."
3 & 4 - fine
5 - Sweet, but requires a bit more DM control to be exercied. 
6 - Awesome.
7 - Allready covered as a use of a skill, but in the event you dont have tumble (or can't make 100...)
8 - a bit confusing, But good.
9 - Nifty. 
10 through 13 - I never liked the divine metamagic cheese, but these seem alright. I think feat #10 needs to be an Insight bonus, B/C I think the spell it duplicates is.
14 though 16 - I always wanted to shoot a bastard sword out of a bow  Only #14 seems a little powerful. A certain character from Mystery Men would need these feats.
17 - Well, this is um, err, unique... I guess its balanced? I don't see any mechanical reason for taking it, but it certainly is... epic.
18 - Weak. Mages can do this (though it is more expesive than a regular weapon. Would it stack?)
19 - I like your metamartial abilities. Alot. I don't think they innately fill the Wizard/warrior gap, but they go the way to doing so.
20 - Fine
21 - For a tower shield? Fine, Otherwise there isn't much use because there is no "forward" except when its your turn.
22 - Almost necessary at high levels.
23 - OMG this + Feat #78! Not bad though. Makes Metamartial better too.
24 - Meh. Q.P. was weak a bit to begin with. (It counts as a death effect right? A 4th level spell, death ward, would protect against it I think)
25 - Sweet. Negates the combo of #23. 
26 - Flavorful. This whole chain of feats was sooo inspired by Dune, I think.
27 - Too good to be believed. Actually its fine with the epic save progression, but on a monster, since they don't follow it...
28 & 29 - Fine
30 - Meh. No god would take it, and a non-god would have better things to do. Perhaps in good in concert with Feat #2... Wait. I see Feat #2's inspiration now... Crap. 
31 - Do you have to specify when it starts when you use it, or can a bard keep "Contingent themesongs" waiting?
32 - Fine
33 - Not 100% = Okay in my book.
34 - Well, um, this is one of those with feat #17 that seems more flavorful than useful.
35 - Harpoon + this = wow.
36 - Was non-epic in Oriental Adventures (Superior Expertise). (And with no real prereqs)
37 - Does it stack? If so, its still ok, just... Scimitars?
38 - Strong. Low prereqs too.
39 - Fine.
40 - How does this interact with 2-handing a weapon? It seems obvious, but you never say.
41 - This is ok. I can't see it being too great. Perhaps taken two or three more times.
42 - Oh, the Alabastor cheese feats  These are fine. Rediculous to think about, and definitely epic, but fine.
43 - I think it should be left as it is listed on the table. (inc. HD size) Otherwise it is a carbon copy of its non-epic counterpart.
44 - I can see this being broken a bit, but with epic or divine undead having +1000 turn resistance, it is needed.
45 - This is the first thing I would take with Feat #2.
46 - Bah. I doubt epic characters will ever starve to death. Except in space... 
47 - See #46. What interaction with spellcasting?
48 - I can see this being cheese in the endgame levels, but since it is so hard to do...
49 & 50 - Fine
51 - This is ok. Free divinations don't do much in epic. Good if one person has this if the PCs begin to chase red herring.
52 - I wish this were finished so I knew what it did, but it sounds nasty. My wiz may take this.  (It seems to suit him so)
53 - I think it may be optionally opposed, possibly by disguise. (an epic use, with an additional penalty to the Disguiser)
54 through 56 - Fine
57 - This is so broken, its not even funny. It would make a better divine ability. I wont even get into, as others mentioned, a certain BoVD PrC....
58 - Fine
59 - This seems too good. Granted, artifacts usually are resistant Pre-epic, but are they still?
60 - Fine
61 - This one seems to be more sense motive based (Can you tell by looking at their head?) and I think should be opposed by Bluff... Such as with #53
62 - After watching LoTR, I think Legolas does this about fifty some times. I would not want to fist fight him. 
63 - Silly sounding (though acurate) name. Like feat #7 in power.
64 - Good. It seems too good with some of the other feats here, but otherwise, I dont see it breaking the game.
65 - "... at my highest bonus?" perhaps? It doesn't say.
66 - This feat is so cool. I get this image of a wizard, who may have high or decent strength, just slugging some mook guard in the face and knocking him out cold with this. A good Monk feat too. 
67 - Too good with area attacks or Whirlwind attack. Well, not too good, but very, very, painful with Epic Whirlwind attacks.
68 - Text talks about heavy armor. Copy paste with care 
69 - You are my hero.
70 - Thank you for making this an epic feat. Theres a non-epic one that does the same thing (Complete Adventurer?) but I think it is too powerful, as it lets a 5th level bard rule the world.
71 - Dune. 'nuff said. There should be one that acts like a Power Word Kill... 
72 - Nice. Even if 1000 High-Lord Neutronium Golems Riding GGGGGGGGWyrm Nexus Dragons jumped out of the shadows to attack you, you don't bat an eye. (Though you still die)
73 - Everyone will name themselves Luke.
74 - Fine.
75 - Fine, though in some of my games, that means the party Rogue can't speak 
76 - Sweet. Take this with #105.
77 - In the event you need to hear "Bravely Bold Sir-Robin" while traveling through space...
78 - Wow, this makes fighters good. (Monks too)
79 - Fine.
80 - "You are skilled at..." Also, is this 5' step before, or after you do so?
81 - Scimitar. This is death. Such a good feat. It is still death. Not broken. Simply death.
82 - And with a Sharpness weapon every attack may just disarm them.
83 - This feat is superior. 
84 - Devastating indeed.
85 - Against what? Do you get to choose? Nice though.
86 - This sets up a chain of death against foes. I like.
87 - I hope this has nothing to do with #25...
88 - This is nice.
89 - While it's prereqs say its for archers, could I do this with a battle axe? Makes forcecage cheese funnier. (and so cheap)
90 - This leads to confusion. What happens if someone heavy (Like 2 tons worth of V-Size catagories) walkes up a wall of wood. Does it fall over?
91 - Does it stack?
92 - Nice.
93 though 95 - Fine
96 - What chance?
97 - Fine.
98 - Perhaps just base it on STR bonus, the way it is written I have to take it for multiple types of materials. Is this intended?
99 - Fine. 
100 - 1d6 what? I think you want to add "... ability damage."
101 - Sweet. Screws armys over. Archers destroy you though, I think.
102 - This is in PHB 2, sorta. Yours is slightly different.
103 - I like your Metamartial powers. Alot.
104 - I think it should be spelled out better. "I wish for Unlimited strength" technically would work. It should be noted, as I think it has been mentioned, that there are still limits to wish. It should still say if you ask for something too great, the spell fails.
WHEW! Alot of typos in the feat text, but alot of good stuff none the less. Your divine rules seem ok. One-on-One god battles seem too good though, if you succeed.


----------



## Fieari

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> 57 - This is so broken, its not even funny. It would make a better divine ability. I wont even get into, as others mentioned, a certain BoVD PrC....



Well, it only allows the benefits from one disease at a time... but yeah.  This is THE feat for Cancer Mages.  The only downside to it (you spread disease) is already there as part of being a Cancer Mage (and is actually considered an UPSIDE there), so... maybe this should be a divine ability.  I'm still a fan though.



> 62 - After watching LoTR, I think Legolas does this about fifty some times. I would not want to fist fight him.



I just noticed... this feat doesn't give any penalty to attack to the target behind the first one you hit.  I think it probably should... and also note when the arrow finally disintegrates or stops, since I could see a reading of this rule leading to arrows that simply never stop going...



> 67 - Too good with area attacks or Whirlwind attack. Well, not too good, but very, very, painful with Epic Whirlwind attacks.



 Not true.  Whirlwind Attack EXPRESSLY forbids gaining extra attacks on top of those gained by WW itself, naming Cleave as an example, but extending that ban to anything else that would grant more attacks.




> 69 - You are my hero.



Let me second this.  Stealing the color of a princess's eyes... that's so awesome as to be nearly unbelievable!  For your next trick, I'd recommend a feat that grants the rogue the ability to steal memories or dreams and put them in bottles.


----------



## dante58701

You got a list of current divine and cosmic abilities?

I just need ideas for a deity Im making. And "panversal"...divine or cosmic, and if divine...what is the cosmic version?


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Fieari said:
			
		

> Not true.  Whirlwind Attack EXPRESSLY forbids gaining extra attacks on top of those gained by WW itself, naming Cleave as an example, but extending that ban to anything else that would grant more attacks.



True, True. I read it as it is the same attack, but redirected. (Since you don't roll another attack roll) I don't think this is too deadly, since if the first hit missed, it may have been due to a 1, and since you use the same attack roll for the "second chance vs an adjacent foe" I would say it misses too. (and they get more AC, making it less likely to connect) 
Actually, I think it does work with WW attack as written, or it is horribly broken: If it grants an extra attack, and the additional attack misses as well, I would get ANOTHER attack against the original foe. (It doesn't say otherwise, though you would miss again probably) So if it doesn't grant an additional attack, then it would work with Whirlwind attack... AHHH MY BRAIN.
None the less, I agree with you it shouldn't work with Whirlwind attack, though in Epic, mook monsters become less common.
Perhaps a feat should be required to use this in a whirlwind. I would call such a feat "Death Blossom"
I think this feat should be clarified somewhat.


----------



## historian

> Thanks - I am pretty proud of it. I am curious to hear what everyone thinks about the Event System in particular. Is it user friendly enough?
> 
> I mean you only need use it at the end of an adventure (so perhaps 1/month on average) and even then it shouldn't take even a novice more than 5-10 minutes per character to work out the results.




Well you know I love the Event System because I think it encourages roleplaying and interaction between the PCs and their "fans" (NPCs who aren't necessarily movers and shakers).

You could probably have made a supplement of it on its own, but I'm glad you've included it in Ascension.  

I also think it's very user friendly.  Conceptually it's easier than either the CR/EL relationship or its XP implications.


----------



## Fieari

Oh, right!  On the subject of the Event System.  It's complicated, yes, but calculating it will only have to take place after... well... big events.  It's about on the level with calculating XP for the party, and unlike with XP, this seems more condusive to being split up between the players for calculating, so that's a plus in it's favor.

I'm for it.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
I love the divinity templates.
Rules 11/10 (Typos and incompleteness included)
Flavor 111/10 (Yes, 111 out of 10)
And I think the best part is your divine template breakdown, in the event we want to mix up the cosmologies or have characters whose flavor the templates contridict.
Example: In converting my namesake mage, I find the demiurge stage I template flavorwise too alien to work (at one point were there old ones in him? Ewwww ), and some of the powers seem out of place with him - He was an Ascended mortal, But never fear, Upper Krust is here! Your ECL breakdown makes switching stuff around a breeze. (Though I hope in the finished version there will list the ECL adjustment for the other features of the higher ranked templates. (Such as the new HD sizes, and some of the other powers, like Evil Eye)
The other thing that is kind of cool is the sample generation guidelines basically splashed through the templates. (Crap, I didn't expect the pcs to spit on Necron, lord of death... *Follows steps X, Y, and Z and a minute later...* "Necron Smites you.")  
Your event system is pretty cool. The math isnt bad, and it makes sense for the deities to take care of their followers. (Cause one of em might grow up big and strong and stomp their rival deity dead, or at least rack up a few hundred quintessence for them in the process)
U_K, If your Divine abilities are worth 6 epic feats statistically, does that mean they are worth 6 flavorfully too? Theres 200 of them!?! 
Brain... Cannot... Comprehend... 
I hearby institute the creation of a new word, an adjective to describe the 'coolness' factor of something, because I have none appropriate. This word is:
Krustian


----------



## poilbrun

*It's great!*

Hi all!

UK, the book is really great, can't wait to see the rest of it (will page 14 & 15 be in the next update?   ).

Here is a little spreadsheet I put together this morning at work (what? Tomorrow is a national holiday here, so it's pretty calm today   ) to help calculate the result in Worship Points with the Event System. Pretty basic, but it seems to be doing the work just fine.

Let me know if there is any compatibility issue, my Excel software is French


----------



## GQuail

Well, now I've skimmed Ascension a few times, I've not terribly much to add on what others have said.

* The templates are great, and the breakdown of CR and ECL is really useful.  The way in which it is assumed previous critters of certain sizes effectively already have it is a nice touch IMHO.

* The re-jigging of the Divine Rank scale to suit your universal take is something I like: it offers a lot more room for fine adjustment on bigger beasties.

* The rules for Worship Points are cool.  I like the fact that there are three different ways of earning them, since it helps people who want gods in their campaign to work one way or another to have different examples of how it might work.  I'm tempted to do a campaign with worship ditched entirely, and all points coming through quintessence: so only god-slaying makes new gods.

* The feats, as others have noted, have some issues: but in the case of the "duplicated" feats. this is inevitable.  When you're trying to patch all the feat holes you're bound to do the same thing someone else has done.  In the case of your improved toughness, perhaps upping it's powerlevel to make an epic version is in order?  As for the Wish feat, I say just chuck it: it looks like a lot more heartache than it's worth, and with your alternate magic rules might not really matter anyway.

* The idea of metamartial feats is great: I'm going to try and drop these into my normal game as soon as, even for my non-epic PCs, as a new trick for fighters to spice up combat a bit.

* The cosmic EGG?  

All in all, I'm quite impressed.  I've still not given every feat a proper examination, but there's clearly a lot here, and the addition of the bigger feats ought to offer a lot more fun.  Very chuffed so far, and the promises inside of the contents of future books have me all the more excited.  ;-)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Pssthpok mate! 



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Wow, okay. Would this reduce your power any?




I get the impression it would certainly affect your damage (vis-a-vis your size category).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb (and Fieari) thanks very much for the help with the feats. I am working out exactly which ones to chop/change at the moment.

*For those of you that have had a chance to look over the feats what are your top 5 and bottom 5?*

Hey Dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> You got a list of current divine and cosmic abilities?




Yes I have a list - thanks for asking. 

You'll all get to see it in about a weeks time. I'm making the divine and cosmic abilities the priority of the next update (in between my cover painting capers) - as well as finishing off the near-finished pages from Chapters 1 and 2 that I cut at the last minute of Beta 0.6.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> I just need ideas for a deity Im making. And "panversal"...divine or cosmic, and if divine...what is the cosmic version?




Cosmic.


----------



## dante58701

Small list maybe?...not details...just the list and whther the powers are divine, cosmic, ect.

Im attempting to make a deity but I dont know which powers in the Epic Bestiary are what.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey historian dude! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Well you know I love the Event System because I think it encourages roleplaying and interaction between the PCs and their "fans" (NPCs who aren't necessarily movers and shakers).




That was one of the intentions.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> You could probably have made a supplement of it on its own, but I'm glad you've included it in Ascension.




I'm not WotC! 

If I was I would already have the Expanded Immortals Handbook and Complete Immortals Handbook in the works. 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> I also think it's very user friendly.  Conceptually it's easier than either the CR/EL relationship or its XP implications.




Well I think its about as detailed/complicated as it needs to be.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Oh, right!  On the subject of the Event System.  It's complicated, yes, but calculating it will only have to take place after... well... big events.  It's about on the level with calculating XP for the party, and unlike with XP, this seems more condusive to being split up between the players for calculating, so that's a plus in it's favor.
> 
> I'm for it.




I think the question is could it (or indeed should it) be 'dumbed down' more.

As I just mentioned to historian, I think the Event System is only as detailed/complicated as it needs to be.

What do you (and indeed the rest of you think)?

The Event System is good for people who want a really detailed campaign. In a sense its the 'slow' way of using immortality. The power point system is the 'middle' way. The Resonance is the 'quick' way.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy mate! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> I love the divinity templates.




As well you should, they are a thing of beauty.   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Rules 11/10 (Typos and incompleteness included)
> Flavor 111/10 (Yes, 111 out of 10)




Well rules I agree with, I am not sure about the flavour. But I appreciate the enthusiasm. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> And I think the best part is your divine template breakdown, in the event we want to mix up the cosmologies or have characters whose flavor the templates contridict.




I always try to have as much flexibility as possible.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Example: In converting my namesake mage, I find the demiurge stage I template flavorwise too alien to work (at one point were there old ones in him? Ewwww ),




What level are some of you crazy guys playing at!   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> and some of the powers seem out of place with him - He was an Ascended mortal, But never fear, Upper Krust is here! Your ECL breakdown makes switching stuff around a breeze. (Though I hope in the finished version there will list the ECL adjustment for the other features of the higher ranked templates. (Such as the new HD sizes, and some of the other powers, like Evil Eye)




Most are included within the ability lists (so they can be gained as esoteric abilities).



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The other thing that is kind of cool is the sample generation guidelines basically splashed through the templates. (Crap, I didn't expect the pcs to spit on Necron, lord of death... *Follows steps X, Y, and Z and a minute later...* "Necron Smites you.")








			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Your event system is pretty cool. The math isnt bad, and it makes sense for the deities to take care of their followers. (Cause one of em might grow up big and strong and stomp their rival deity dead, or at least rack up a few hundred quintessence for them in the process)




By "the math isn't bad" I take it you mean 'impeccable'? 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K, If your Divine abilities are worth 6 epic feats statistically, does that mean they are worth 6 flavorfully too? Theres 200 of them!?!
> Brain... Cannot... Comprehend... I hearby institute the creation of a new word, an adjective to describe the 'coolness' factor of something, because I have none appropriate. This word is: Krustian




I always thought 'Krustifixion' was very apropos, goes very well with "Hey you totally nailed that", "Yeah I just Krustified it".


----------



## Upper_Krust

poilbrun said:
			
		

> Hi all!




Hiya poilbrun matey! 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> UK, the book is really great, can't wait to see the rest of it (will page 14 & 15 be in the next update?   ).




Maybe one of them. That bits a tad intricate. 



			
				poilbrun said:
			
		

> Here is a little spreadsheet I put together this morning at work (what? Tomorrow is a national holiday here, so it's pretty calm today   ) to help calculate the result in Worship Points with the Event System. Pretty basic, but it seems to be doing the work just fine.
> 
> Let me know if there is any compatibility issue, my Excel software is French




Very cool! 

I'll mention that on the website when I update tonight.


----------



## thundershot

Slightly off-topic, but on topic... I broke down and also got the Bestiary pdf (even though I'm getting the print) and I'm curious.. are you going to change the font for the creature names for the print version? I can barely read some of those... I had to go into the text to know exactly what it was really called. Ouch. Ditto for the text right under with the other names.... Sorry, but it's the only negative I could find after a quick skimming. 

Back to reading the new one.. 


Chris


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey GQuail mate! 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> Well, now I've skimmed Ascension a few times, I've not terribly much to add on what others have said.
> 
> * The templates are great, and the breakdown of CR and ECL is really useful.  The way in which it is assumed previous critters of certain sizes effectively already have it is a nice touch IMHO.




Of course if I reworked the Balor, Pir Fiend, Solar _et al_ they would probably be somewhat different, so its not an exact match. But I think the main concern is going to be how such beings are equipped.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> * The re-jigging of the Divine Rank scale to suit your universal take is something I like: it offers a lot more room for fine adjustment on bigger beasties.




I never liked the sound of Divine Rank 0. 



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> * The rules for Worship Points are cool.  I like the fact that there are three different ways of earning them, since it helps people who want gods in their campaign to work one way or another to have different examples of how it might work.  I'm tempted to do a campaign with worship ditched entirely, and all points coming through quintessence: so only god-slaying makes new gods.




Well the Glory stuff is the slow but detailed approach, the Power stuff is the parallels EXP approach and the Resonance is 'flip the switch' quick approach.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> * The feats, as others have noted, have some issues: but in the case of the "duplicated" feats. this is inevitable.  When you're trying to patch all the feat holes you're bound to do the same thing someone else has done.  In the case of your improved toughness, perhaps upping it's powerlevel to make an epic version is in order?  As for the Wish feat, I say just chuck it: it looks like a lot more heartache than it's worth, and with your alternate magic rules might not really matter anyway.




True. I actually have half a dozen epic feats on standby (that I concocted over the weekend) so, based on what people tell me are the weakest feats on the current list I will probably substitute a few.

One likelyhood is that Improved Critical Multiplier will get a kick upstairs (to Divine Abilities) but have its effect doubled - since I was rating it initially as 3 feats.

I may add Greater Critical and Perfect Critical.

So you would have:

Improved Critical
Greater Critical
Superior Critical
Perfect Critical (where 17-20 will always crit).

I also may make a few minor changes to the Forked Tongue, Silver Tongue feats and kick them up to Divine to join Razor Tongue.

I forgot to add a couple of Sneak Attack feats I have lurking about.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> * The idea of metamartial feats is great: I'm going to try and drop these into my normal game as soon as, even for my non-epic PCs, as a new trick for fighters to spice up combat a bit.




The metamartial stuff in the beta is so unfinished I almost kept it out. Expect some new cool stuff added in that regard.



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> * The cosmic EGG?




Well I did swop emails with the main man a few years back regarding deities, so I always see him as the "guv'nor" as far as D&D is concerned (no disrespect to big Dave).



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> All in all, I'm quite impressed.  I've still not given every feat a proper examination,




In fairness you could argue neither have I.   



			
				GQuail said:
			
		

> but there's clearly a lot here, and the addition of the bigger feats ought to offer a lot more fun.  Very chuffed so far, and the promises inside of the contents of future books have me all the more excited.  ;-)




Hey! You haven't even seen all of Ascension yet!


----------



## historian

Hey U_K!  



> I'm not WotC!
> 
> If I was I would already have the Expanded Immortals Handbook and Complete Immortals Handbook in the works.




 

Yes, they know a thing or two about profit maximization.  



> I think the question is could it (or indeed should it) be 'dumbed down' more.
> 
> As I just mentioned to historian, I think the Event System is only as detailed/complicated as it needs to be.




I'd leave it as is if I were you.  Each DM can take out as much detail as they need for their campaigns.  I don't see how you benefit by doing it.

Personally I like the level of detail.



> What level are some of you crazy guys playing at!




I would advocate virtually every DM creating a demiurge (assuming the campaign has Sidereals).  Currently I'm working on a 392 HD version of Samael completion pending the full list of Powers.



> For those of you that have had a chance to look over the feats what are your top 5 and bottom 5?




My favorite are:

Automatic Writing
Blood Rage
Nosodic
Divine Retribution
Soothsayer


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again dante matey! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Small list maybe?...not details...just the list and whther the powers are divine, cosmic, ect.
> 
> Im attempting to make a deity but I dont know which powers in the Epic Bestiary are what.




Have you ever heard the expression: "Patience is a virtue"?

Whatever I tell you now is only likely to change between now and next week, and I have enough on my plate responding to the current beta to start discussing the intricacies of the next update before its even updated.

So just wait.   

I have no doubt the 7 days will pass all too soon for me.   

Go ahead and design some powers now if you wish and then you can check them up against what I have next week.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi thundershot mate! 



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Slightly off-topic, but on topic... I broke down and also got the Bestiary pdf (even though I'm getting the print) and I'm curious.. are you going to change the font for the creature names for the print version? I can barely read some of those... I had to go into the text to know exactly what it was really called. Ouch. Ditto for the text right under with the other names.... Sorry, but it's the only negative I could find after a quick skimming.
> 
> Back to reading the new one..




Its already changed.

The Interior of the print Bestiary looks like the interior of Ascension now. Thats the feat used for the main header.

If you don't have Ascension yet you can see how the new header font looks on my website, because the white Ascension cover uses it and the Black Bestiary cover uses it.


----------



## historian

Oh yeah, one more quick question as to the _Alter Reality_ ability.

Assuming the "caster" chooses and effect that's based on caster level (Blasphemy for instance) what it the caster level for determining the effect?


----------



## Pssthpok

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *For those of you that have had a chance to look over the feats what are your top 5 and bottom 5?*




Okay.

TOP 5
*Anoxia:* Provided it gets the -1 Con addendum, I think this is one of the coolest feats I've ever seen. Good show.

*Sideways Stealing:* I've been finding myself wanting this feat lately, for when I want to transcribe things from my computer to my journal.

*Soothsayer:* Love it. Absolutely love it.

*Weapon Abatement:* Excellently powerful; combined with Epic Dodge (from the ELH), this makes an enemy combatant weep.

*Sticky Strike:* For when something really needs to get a beat-down. 

BOTTOM 5
*Death Attack:* Something about this says broken, to me. It's like DevCrit but with less than half the prerequisites.

*Knockout Attack:* Same as Death Attack. In the higher levels I see this feat being a must-have, something that makes it potentially broken.

*Mathesis & Phrenology:* Meh. Seems like a waste of an epic feat, to me. I mean, it might be good for flavor, but the 10% margin of error is a formulation that I can see most DMs skipping altogether.

*Prehensile Hair: *This doesn't seem like someone one could take a feat to do. This seems like something you should either be able to do or not, not something you can learn over time.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

*In no particular order...*

Top 5:

Eclectic Shot
Eclectic Defense
Eclectic Strike
Amazing Pockets
Sideways Stealing

Next epic character I play is DEFINITELY a rogue! 

Bottom Five:
Pick five Three-Weapon Fighting feats

I just can't imagine that fighting style working. And how do you deal with disarm attempts against the "third weapon?"


----------



## Fieari

After thinking over the Event System a bit more, I think there could be a few changes... not mechanically, but simnply in how it's presented.  Organization of information is very important, esspecially for those just learning a new system.  I remember getting the "Elements of Magic" system, which is awesome by the way, but while every aspect of the EoM system is nigh-perfect, learning it was a severe headache due to the way the information was laid out.  You have to think of presenting a system like this much in the same way you'd teach a class, since the stuff in it is so new.

The fundamental thing is that it needs to be established at the beginning: 1 person appreciating you = 1 WP.
And THEN all the modifying features can be described, but describe them in layers of complexity, so that a DM wanting something faster or slower can simply cut off everything after a certain point.



As for my top 5 feats:
Sideways Stealing
Soothsayer (the party rogue can't speak... heehee!)
Automatic Writing
Amazing Pockets
Ether Goer (although, surely there's a better name for this...)

And my bottom 5 feats:
Wishful Thinking (for reasons I've already stated)
Egg Born (for... sheer weirdness; I'd more expect this in the Book of Erotic Fantasy)
Cat's Fall, Plastic Soul, Subtle Body (Because I was rather fond of the fact that sheer skill allowed these anyway... the feats here basically amount to something along the lines of a +60 to a skill check, which would likely be decried as unbalanced)


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> What level are some of you crazy guys playing at!



Well, unless I should bump his levels up to meet the minimum HD requirements, he finished the campaines at 80 . His ECL is like 1000+ though.
Top 5 favs: 1, 52, 69, 71, 78
Bottom 5: 74, 100, and if you just want to remove feats to get to 100, chop out Epic Potency, and make the 2 metamartial feats sit with the rest, possibly with a higher attack penalty.
(It is hard to think which is the least when the whole chapter is Krustian)
Oh, are the Feat numbers going to remain in the final release? They are nice, very useful for referencing. (Hey what does vorpal hurricane do?... Oh wait, its cosmic ability 94, lets check...) But I have never seen them in an official book. Of course with so many feats and powers, it may help alot. (You might want to mention it in a sidebar or something)
Oh, and with your transfinite power, It seems kind of crazy, that if a rank 30 god gets it, and Omega, the end of all, a rank 32000 god apears, the rank 30 god gets a huge boost. (Though their difference in HD and power selection will still mean Omega wins)
I like it, but it seems if you ran a campaine in those power ranges, if the PCs dont have it, and fight something that does, they almost assuradly cannot win. (Of course, I haven't seen the powers or portfolio benfits, but I would imagine that is the case. Heck, high rank Deitys can switch their porfolios any time they want?!? What am I god of? *Rolls dice* Pain and Kittens of course!)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Pssthpok dude! 

I'll comment on the bottom five...



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> Okay.
> 
> BOTTOM 5
> *Death Attack:* Something about this says broken, to me. It's like DevCrit but with less than half the prerequisites.
> 
> *Knockout Attack:* Same as Death Attack. In the higher levels I see this feat being a must-have, something that makes it potentially broken.




You don't think the massive BAB penalties are enough!?!?   



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> *Mathesis & Phrenology:* Meh. Seems like a waste of an epic feat, to me. I mean, it might be good for flavor, but the 10% margin of error is a formulation that I can see most DMs skipping altogether.




I suppose I could remove the 10% bit. It is more of a falvourful feat than a mechanical one. I like to have some flavour feats in there.



			
				Pssthpok said:
			
		

> *Prehensile Hair: *This doesn't seem like someone one could take a feat to do. This seems like something you should either be able to do or not, not something you can learn over time.




I don't know about that. I was sort of thinking along the lines of Chinese/Indian gurus who can purportedly do all sorts of weird stuff.

Also I like the movie "Bride with White Hair".


----------



## Upper_Krust

Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Top 5:
> 
> Eclectic Shot
> Eclectic Defense
> Eclectic Strike
> Amazing Pockets
> Sideways Stealing
> 
> Next epic character I play is DEFINITELY a rogue!




...wait til you see the divine and cosmic stuff. 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Bottom Five:
> Pick five Three-Weapon Fighting feats
> 
> I just can't imagine that fighting style working. And how do you deal with disarm attempts against the "third weapon?"




Theres simply no excuse for 'diss'ing' Three-Weapon Style.

Okay then, just for you. Here is a shot of Three-Weapon Fighting in action...and yes that is a guy with one arm fighting Three-Weapon Style and yes he does single-handedly (no pun intended) wipe out an entire bridge of assailants. 

http://www.fantasiafestival.com/2005/_media/images/films/15/photo.jpg

From the excellent movie "The New One-Armed Swordsman"

Reviews of all three one-armed swordsman movies can be found here:

http://www.dvdtimes.co.uk/content.php?contentid=12796


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> After thinking over the Event System a bit more, I think there could be a few changes... not mechanically, but simnply in how it's presented.  Organization of information is very important, esspecially for those just learning a new system.  I remember getting the "Elements of Magic" system, which is awesome by the way, but while every aspect of the EoM system is nigh-perfect, learning it was a severe headache due to the way the information was laid out.  You have to think of presenting a system like this much in the same way you'd teach a class, since the stuff in it is so new.
> 
> The fundamental thing is that it needs to be established at the beginning: 1 person appreciating you = 1 WP.




I seem to recall this was also something Alzrius mentioned but I hadn't got round to it by the time of the beta release.   



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> And THEN all the modifying features can be described, but describe them in layers of complexity, so that a DM wanting something faster or slower can simply cut off everything after a certain point.




Okay.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> As for my top 5 feats:
> Sideways Stealing
> Soothsayer (the party rogue can't speak... heehee!)
> Automatic Writing
> Amazing Pockets
> Ether Goer (although, surely there's a better name for this...)




Ether Goer is an expression used in my occult encyclopedia. So it stays. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> And my bottom 5 feats:
> Wishful Thinking (for reasons I've already stated)




Okay, its almost certainly for the chop.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Egg Born (for... sheer weirdness; I'd more expect this in the Book of Erotic Fantasy)




Egg-Born is a prereq. for Sweat-Born (divine ability), which is indirectly how Aphrodite (in the mythology) was born.

Egg-Born would be more useful if someone had come up with a Pregnancy Template...I suppose I'll just have to do it myself. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Cat's Fall, Plastic Soul, Subtle Body (Because I was rather fond of the fact that sheer skill allowed these anyway... the feats here basically amount to something along the lines of a +60 to a skill check, which would likely be decried as unbalanced)




The problem I had with relying on sheer skill, was that you had to be so bloody high-level to meet the DCs that you would have needed to be an overgod.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> 
> Well, unless I should bump his levels up to meet the minimum HD requirements, he finished the campaines at 80 . His ECL is like 1000+ though.








			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Top 5 favs: 1, 52, 69, 71, 78
> Bottom 5: 74, 100, and if you just want to remove feats to get to 100, chop out Epic Potency, and make the 2 metamartial feats sit with the rest, possibly with a higher attack penalty.




Weird choices...why don't you like those ones in particular - just curious?   



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> (It is hard to think which is the least when the whole chapter is Krustian)








			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, are the Feat numbers going to remain in the final release?




Yes. Useful for rolling randomly too (or at least it would be had I exactly 100).



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> They are nice, very useful for referencing. (Hey what does vorpal hurricane do?... Oh wait, its cosmic ability 94, lets check...) But I have never seen them in an official book. Of course with so many feats and powers, it may help alot. (You might want to mention it in a sidebar or something)




Yes, I think its necessary when you have 475 abilities.

Although I was thinking 

E1-100
D1-200
C1-100
T1-50
O1-25



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, and with your transfinite power, It seems kind of crazy, that if a rank 30 god gets it, and Omega, the end of all, a rank 32000 god apears, the rank 30 god gets a huge boost. (Though their difference in HD and power selection will still mean Omega wins)
> I like it, but it seems if you ran a campaine in those power ranges, if the PCs dont have it, and fight something that does, they almost assuradly cannot win. (Of course, I haven't seen the powers or portfolio benfits, but I would imagine that is the case. Heck, high rank Deitys can switch their porfolios any time they want?!? What am I god of? *Rolls dice* Pain and Kittens of course!)




I should have specified that it only boosts you up to double your own power.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The problem I had with relying on sheer skill, was that you had to be so bloody high-level to meet the DCs that you would have needed to be an overgod.



I prefer your feats. It never sat well with me that one could walk on clouds or fall several miles without a scratch just by "relying on sheer skill."

As for the ThWF issue, okay, but my question about disarming the third weapon still stands.


----------



## Fieari

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The problem I had with relying on sheer skill, was that you had to be so bloody high-level to meet the DCs that you would have needed to be an overgod.



Hmm.  Perhaps you should revisit the skill DCs then?


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Post 1000. 

So that this post will actually be good for something, I'm going to try to guess at what the omnific abilities might be.

Infinite Str
Inf Dex
Inf Con
Inf Int
Inf Wis
Inf Cha
Inf speed
Inf effective HD/caster level
Inf fast healing/regeneration
Inf perception
Inf size/presence
Inf time control
Inf effective divine ranks
Inf foreknowledge
Inf skills

I give up.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!


			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Weird choices...why don't you like those ones in particular - just curious?



74 - With modifications to the prereqs of feat 99, feat 99 does this.
100 - This just seems silly. As an ability, its fine. When I read the feat, I just keep seeing "Druid Wildshape cheese" under the benifit heading. It doesn't say if you can take it more times, or if its effect stack. I have seen some pretty nasty druid builds that involve a torrential onslaught of attacks, and this feat would make every druid want to be a Hydra. (or in FR, theres a hydra variety, less tough to kill, but poisonous )
Epic Potency was in the Bestiary, and it is pretty basic. 
The Metamartial feats, if you need space for more feats could become standard metamartial effects like the others. 
Overall theres good stuff for all the classes in there, but Druids (who start to make less and less sense in epic anyhow) look like they get some big boosts in there. (They can take almost all the feats in there, save the bard and sneak-attack ones)
I have no problem with druids, its just that in *most* epic games, players pile on immunities so fast that the threats to the party fall under only 2 catagories: Epic spells, and Absurd instakill melee. Sadly, thats what said players use too.
Order of opperations, for me atleast in a game is a. - defense, b. - Epic spells for "defence/utility" (Ward vs Disjunction, Summon xxx Cr XXXXX creatures, etc.), c. - metamagic spam (GRRR Incantrix SMASH!), and d. - Fun feats (like Feat #1.)
It is likely that your system wont have problems like this, and I doubt every one does this, but in general, in any epic game I have been in, if you didn't follow the steps in order, you became inferior and were simply there to carry the wizard's loot.
Just my take, if you need em for prereqs and all, keep em. They just either sat as "Omni-Death-Omega" or "Oh, Ill pick that up.... Last. I need more Epic Potency so I can One-Shot-great-cleave a few Hecatoncheires"
EDIT: How dare someone diss Three Weapon Fighting. Its so elite its crazy. I think the requirements need to be a bit higher though, perhaps. 
Heres a question: If I took three Weapon Fighting, do I get to fight with three weapons at once, or do I effectively get a third hand? Like could I fight with three Greatswords, a Longsword and a Greatsword, A greatsword and spiked shield, or just three longswords?
EDIT Part II: Would your Mantic Frenzy feat count as a "rage" ability? I just like the idea of a wizard getting so angry at some poor peasent that (with the use of the Intimidating Rage feat) he screams something akin to "I will flay the skin from your bones, and animate half of you as undead!" and having everyone around him simply cower in terror. The Intimidate skill only goes so far.


----------



## GQuail

Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Bottom Five:
> Pick five Three-Weapon Fighting feats
> 
> I just can't imagine that fighting style working. And how do you deal with disarm attempts against the "third weapon?"




I gotta say, I thought their inclusion in the Bestiary was a bit odd myself.  I've never had a player ask to do something of that nature, so if they vanished from the Immortals Handbook overnight I would not shed a tear.  

To be honest, the mental image (and the picture provided by Krusty) just doesn't do anything for me.  But it's an interesting way for high level fighters to advance, I guess.

As for my favourite feats:

Anoxia: this does require observation to keep it from getting silly, but I really like the idea.  You die in combat and come back having learned some new trick to kick your opponents behind with when in the afterlife!  

Automatic Spellbook: I quite like the idea of magic using PCs standing back and watching their foes for a bit, learning what spells they use, and turning them against them later tht day.  :>  

Forked Tounge & Silver Tounge: "Trust In Me, Just In Me...."  I see loads of fun to be had with these by high level "Face" characters.

Stellar Music: BARDS.... IN.... SPACE!   

As for ones I ain't keen on or have issues with:

Divine Right: Maybe this'll work better in game with the other Immortals stuff, but I really don't like the idea of a cleric of one god getting more benefit out of a feat than another not because of stat arrangement, or weapon choice, or spells memorized.... but because of a stat of the gods like Divine Rank.  Um, my cleric of Thor gets more use out of this feat than the cleric of Apep /why/, exactly?  The idea is funky, but it seems to focus on a stat which otherwise shouldn't affect PCs as a deciding factor on it's import.  

Egg-Born: I know at least one PC who would have liked this and all, but it just seems a hell of a weird thing to spend a feat on.

Improved Toughness: Just because it's kinda redundant for those people who are using the similar Improved Toughness feat WotC came out with, and non-epic too. 

Weapon Abatement: Is this supposed to duplicate a specific power of a deity or something?  Because it just does nothing for me.  Would it apply to magic spells that use attack rolls?  I dunno, it just seems more like a funky spell or magic item than a feat thin.

Wishful Thinking: as mentioned elsewhere, it's just not going to work.


----------



## Pssthpok

I don't see the problem with Wishful Thinking. I think it's a great idea seeing as some of the older DMs stick to the wish-twist thing to this day. For those types of games, this is a helluva feat.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> I don't see the problem with Wishful Thinking. I think it's a great idea seeing as some of the older DMs stick to the wish-twist thing to this day. For those types of games, this is a helluva feat.



And, come to think of it, it would probably be nice if you're the type who gets wishes from tricksy/evil outsiders


----------



## Fieari

If you're getting your wishes from tricksy/evil outsiders, than I fail to see how knowing your own thoughts is going to help stop a malignant force from deliberately utlizing all the ambiguities of the english language against you.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Fieari said:
			
		

> If you're getting your wishes from tricksy/evil outsiders, than I fail to see how knowing your own thoughts is going to help stop a malignant force from deliberately utlizing all the ambiguities of the english language against you.



The feat says that "your wishes cannot be misinterpreted." I would take that to mean they can't even be misinterpreted intentionally.


----------



## Zoatebix

I'm not a big fan of "Juggling-Style" three-weapon fighting, but I totally dig Roronoa Zoro from _One Piece_'s Santōryū with the third Katana in his teeth.  

It should be noted that the names of all of Zoro's techniques are puns.  Whether this has any bearing on how much I dig his three-sword technique is unclear.


----------



## GQuail

Pssthpok said:
			
		

> I don't see the problem with Wishful Thinking. I think it's a great idea seeing as some of the older DMs stick to the wish-twist thing to this day. For those types of games, this is a helluva feat.




If they're doing that, then they aren't following the core rules for Wish.  Building feats around people misinterpreting a spell doesn't seem a good design paradigm.  ;-)

At heart, Wish spells you cast in 3.X are not misinterpreted unless you exceed a specific boundary: and when you do so, you're arguably puhsing the power level of a 9th level spell anyway, and don't deserve to get exactly what you want.  Especially if Krusty's spell system is going to include 10th level spells plus, then making Wish all the more potent seems a recipe for disaster.  Why take an 11th level spell slot when you can take this feat and bang one out in exchange for a 9th level slot?  Hell, why not just cast a Wish and ask for some 11th level spell slots?

As for it perhaps being useable on other entities casting Wish for you: well, that's one possibility, but I think it would have to be phrased a bit better: I'd take "your Wishes" to mean Wish spells you cast, not spells cast by otehr people.  THat's like saying a feat which lets you "add 1d6 elemental damage to your arrows when used in ranged combat, choosing the type of damage when they strike" means you can buy a bunch of arrows and hand them out to your friends, and when they shoot them you can choose to trigger +1d6 fire damage or whatever then: "your" is perhaps deceptively vague.  Especially since in these situations it's the Devil or whatever casting the spell, why should your feat force him to pick a different target or effect for his spell if it doesn't explicitly say so?

It might be frowned on by those who prefer RP and rules to be seperate, but one way to both achieve this goal and give a more general purpose feat might be some sort of epic feat that enables the character to always say what he means to say: his supernatually broad vocabularly prevents him from having any "let him have it" moments.  An odd thing to spend a feat on, but a note that says "this may aid you in not getting caught in wordplay with demonic apcts, etc" might make it worthwhile.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dude! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> I prefer your feats. It never sat well with me that one could walk on clouds or fall several miles without a scratch just by "relying on sheer skill."




Exactly, and what happens if you fail your cloud balance check. I think its more something you should either be able to do or not do.



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> As for the ThWF issue, okay, but my question about disarming the third weapon still stands.




Good question. I think someone with Three-WF would gain a bonus against being disarmed because they have to juggle the weapons, but at the same time it would be easier to deflect a juggled weapon. So overall it probably evens out.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari dude! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Hmm.  Perhaps you should revisit the skill DCs then?




Possibly, I plan on tweaking my balance rank prereqs for these feats.

Incidently I plan on removing possibly 8 or 9 of the epic feats on the current list.

- Forked Tongue and Silver Tongue will be tweaked and move up to Divine Abilities.
- Improved Critical Multiplier will also move up to Divine (but have its power doubled)
- Weapon Abatement I am not sure about.
- The Metamartial feats will be removed from the main list - no point duplicating them on both lists.
- Wishful Thinking is gone.
- Improved Toughness I am not sure of.

Planned Additions:

Phase Shot
Perfect Critical
Echo Song...may end up divine.
Fortuna Minor
Coniunctio
Superior Manyshot
Good Reflexes
Good Will

I think these last two were a bit confusing lumping all the saves into one.

I'm toying with a feat called Animal Magnetism.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again matey! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Post 1000.
> 
> So that this post will actually be good for something, I'm going to try to guess at what the omnific abilities might be.
> 
> Infinite Str
> Inf Dex
> Inf Con
> Inf Int
> Inf Wis
> Inf Cha
> Inf speed
> Inf effective HD/caster level
> Inf fast healing/regeneration
> Inf perception
> Inf size/presence
> Inf time control
> Inf effective divine ranks
> Inf foreknowledge
> Inf skills
> 
> I give up.




Well, you have half right.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> 
> 74 - With modifications to the prereqs of feat 99, feat 99 does this.




Yes but one is druid based and the other monk based.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> 100 - This just seems silly. As an ability, its fine. When I read the feat, I just keep seeing "Druid Wildshape cheese" under the benifit heading. It doesn't say if you can take it more times, or if its effect stack. I have seen some pretty nasty druid builds that involve a torrential onslaught of attacks, and this feat would make every druid want to be a Hydra. (or in FR, theres a hydra variety, less tough to kill, but poisonous )
> Epic Potency was in the Bestiary, and it is pretty basic.




I'll fix those problems. You on;ly have a total amount of venom per round. So if you have multiple attacks you dilute the potency.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> The Metamartial feats, if you need space for more feats could become standard metamartial effects like the others.




I'll be cutting those from the main feat lists to free up a bit of room.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Overall theres good stuff for all the classes in there, but Druids (who start to make less and less sense in epic anyhow) look like they get some big boosts in there. (They can take almost all the feats in there, save the bard and sneak-attack ones)




I like as few prereqs as possible.

Regarding Druids, I understand the problem, I think their unique selling point at epic levels lies in special shapechanging abilities. I have some very interesting cosmic druid abilities like *Chimerical, Doppelganger, Metamorph* and *Molymorph*. 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I have no problem with druids, its just that in *most* epic games, players pile on immunities so fast that the threats to the party fall under only 2 catagories: Epic spells, and Absurd instakill melee. Sadly, thats what said players use too.
> Order of opperations, for me atleast in a game is a. - defense, b. - Epic spells for "defence/utility" (Ward vs Disjunction, Summon xxx Cr XXXXX creatures, etc.), c. - metamagic spam (GRRR Incantrix SMASH!), and d. - Fun feats (like Feat #1.)
> It is likely that your system wont have problems like this, and I doubt every one does this, but in general, in any epic game I have been in, if you didn't follow the steps in order, you became inferior and were simply there to carry the wizard's loot.
> Just my take, if you need em for prereqs and all, keep em. They just either sat as "Omni-Death-Omega" or "Oh, Ill pick that up.... Last. I need more Epic Potency so I can One-Shot-great-cleave a few Hecatoncheires"




If some classes don't seem to be useful at epic levels then that only means they could use a bit of work.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> EDIT: How dare someone diss Three Weapon Fighting. Its so elite its crazy. I think the requirements need to be a bit higher though, perhaps.




I want to allow it at epic levels.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Heres a question: If I took three Weapon Fighting, do I get to fight with three weapons at once, or do I effectively get a third hand? Like could I fight with three Greatswords, a Longsword and a Greatsword, A greatsword and spiked shield, or just three longswords?




Three medium sized (longsword sized) weapons unless you have the Oversized weapon feat/Monkey Grip type stuff.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> EDIT Part II: Would your Mantic Frenzy feat count as a "rage" ability? I just like the idea of a wizard getting so angry at some poor peasent that (with the use of the Intimidating Rage feat) he screams something akin to "I will flay the skin from your bones, and animate half of you as undead!" and having everyone around him simply cower in terror. The Intimidate skill only goes so far.




Its not really rage, more spell euphoria.

...More after I get my dinner - I am totally 'Lee Marvin' here.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hello again matey!
> 
> 
> 
> Well, you have half right.



 Is that half of what I have or half of what you have?


----------



## GQuail

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Exactly, and what happens if you fail your cloud balance check. I think its more something you should either be able to do or not do.




To an extent, I agree with this: though one could argue simply having a high enough skill check basically assures this anyway.  Still, having a swim speed and a high Swim score ain't the same thing, so I agree that giving the ability from other routes is a good idea.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Servitor mate! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Is that half of what I have or half of what you have?




Half of what you have. 

Come to think of it I don't actually have 25 decided upon yet though...


----------



## historian

> Come to think of it I don't actually have 25 decided upon yet though...




Feel free to add more than 25 if you like.

Do they all stack?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya matey! 



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Feel free to add more than 25 if you like.




Cheeky monkey! 

I'll be lucky to make 200 divine, 100 cosmic, 50 trans and 25 Omnific.

At the moment I am sitting on roughly 160/80/40/20.

I have about another 20 divine and 10 cosmic waiting in the wings that may find their way in. Where the rest are coming from at this stage is a mystery. 

Looking at the classes I seem to have pretty much all of them fairly well covered over the divine and cosmic abilities. I have between 3-6 divine abilities for each class and between 2-4 cosmic abilities for each class.

If anyone can think of some far out abilities they want to see classes have now is the time to talk. Although it might be better to wait until Monday until you see what I have. Chances are I probably already have 9 out of 10 ideas you would mention.



			
				historian said:
			
		

> Do they all stack?




More or less.


----------



## historian

> Cheeky monkey!




 



> I'll be lucky to make 200 divine, 100 cosmic, 50 trans and 25 Omnific.
> 
> At the moment I am sitting on roughly 160/80/40/20.




That's very respectable.

I could try, but it's hard for me to imagine more than about 12-14 Omnific abilities.  




> I have about another 20 divine and 10 cosmic waiting in the wings that may find their way in. Where the rest are coming from at this stage is a mystery.




Somewhere beyond the 10th Dimension . . . . . . 



> More or less.




Cool, that makes CR extrapolations for High Lords smoother.  

Hope you're getting some rest, seriously.


----------



## Fieari

Yeah, it'd be much easier to suggest ideas you don't have yet when first we've seen what you've got.

Do you have Robert Jordan style Baelfire in yet?


Hm.  Omnific abilities stack.  I guess that means that in a contest between high lords, the winner in a particular arena, say, an opposed grapple check, is the one with more Infinite Strength feats?


----------



## Rhuarc

Hey UK mate 

Hope you can help me with a quick question about how PC wealth affects the Encounter Level of monsters.

Example:

Nightshade, Nightwalker = CR 16

+ *PC* wealth of level 16 = ?

Dunno if you have already some sort of formluar for adding PC wealth rather then NPC wealth, but I thought if someone could help me with this it would be you   

Thanks in advance and btw, I love Ascension   
I will change some minor things for my campaign but overall its awesome, can't wait for the finished product 

Best regards


----------



## dante58701

Half-Grigori ...

Would this be Nephilim or would it be unique?

Im referring to after their fall from grace. I kinda like the idea of using the current Grigori as aliens and having them produce offspring. As it stands Im gonna give the half-grigori exactly half of their abilities. Or I might just give them full Grigori abilities and have them look human, essentially ruling the Grigori genetics to be dominant in every which way but physical appearance.


----------



## Edheldur

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hey UK mate




Well, I'm not UK, but I can answer your question.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hope you can help me with a quick question about how PC wealth affects the Encounter Level of monsters.
> 
> Example:
> 
> Nightshade, Nightwalker = CR 16
> 
> + *PC* wealth of level 16 = ?
> 
> Dunno if you have already some sort of formluar for adding PC wealth rather then NPC wealth, but I thought if someone could help me with this it would be you




According to the version 6 of his Challenge Ratings system (which I don't have, but he confirmed this on an e-mail to me), equipment is now +1/3rd CR per Level; thus, PC wealth of level 16 = +5.33 CR

Now, If this is wrong, I'm pretty sure someone will correct me very soon.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Yeah, it'd be much easier to suggest ideas you don't have yet when first we've seen what you've got.




Indeed.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Do you have Robert Jordan style Baelfire in yet?




No. What does that do...I'll have a look on wikipedia later.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Hm.  Omnific abilities stack.  I guess that means that in a contest between high lords, the winner in a particular arena, say, an opposed grapple check, is the one with more Infinite Strength feats?




Infinite Strength does not stack with Infinite Strength. I misinterpreted the 'stacks' comment. My mistake.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hey UK mate
> 
> Hope you can help me with a quick question about how PC wealth affects the Encounter Level of monsters.
> 
> Example:
> 
> Nightshade, Nightwalker = CR 16
> 
> + *PC* wealth of level 16 = ?
> 
> Dunno if you have already some sort of formluar for adding PC wealth rather then NPC wealth, but I thought if someone could help me with this it would be you




Edheldur was half right in his assessment.

16 levels of PC wealth = +5.33

However, he failed to take into account that PC wealth should always equal ECL.

CR 16 = ECL 24

We then need to multiply this by 1.5 to get the new ECL where wealth equals ECL

24 x 1.5 = 36.

So a Nightwalker should possess 36th-level PC equipment and would be roughly a CR 24 opponent with it.

36th-level equipment (as per Ascension) would be 4 artifacts of either +18 (bonus squared x 10,000) or +12 (bonus squared x 20,000) type power, to give you a rough example. 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Thanks in advance and btw, I love Ascension
> I will change some minor things for my campaign but overall its awesome, can't wait for the finished product
> 
> Best regards




Thanks very much for the kind words mate!


----------



## Upper_Krust

hey Dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Half-Grigori ...
> 
> Would this be Nephilim or would it be unique?
> 
> Im referring to after their fall from grace. I kinda like the idea of using the current Grigori as aliens and having them produce offspring. As it stands Im gonna give the half-grigori exactly half of their abilities. Or I might just give them full Grigori abilities and have them look human, essentially ruling the Grigori genetics to be dominant in every which way but physical appearance.




Technically Nephilim, but thats with one grigori parent, one human parent.

Its possible that other races (when mating with the grigori) could spawn other types of half-abominations.

*Incidently all, I will probably start a new thread sometime early next week. This one is getting a tad unwieldy.*


----------



## dante58701

Exactly which portion of a grigori's abilities are divine and stem from a divine template? Or do we just add the divine template to existing statistics? Thus far extracting which abilities stem from the divine template has been a bit problematic. Primarily because I dont know which abilities are purely racial in design. For example...the Anakim, one of my favorites, which of it's abilities are purely from the quasi-divine template? Which abilities are purely racial in origin? Perhaps you could add anotations to future updates regarding this issue?

Just for my sake, and those who read this ...Im a bit befuzzled. Im kinda a stickler for rules and I want my monsters and deities to be KRUSTIAN!!! LOL!!!


----------



## historian

> Exactly which portion of a grigori's abilities are divine and stem from a divine template? Or do we just add the divine template to existing statistics? Thus far extracting which abilities stem from the divine template has been a bit problematic. Primarily because I dont know which abilities are purely racial in design. For example...the Anakim, one of my favorites, which of it's abilities are purely from the quasi-divine template? Which abilities are purely racial in origin? Perhaps you could add anotations to future updates regarding this issue?




Maybe I can help out here Dante.

Putting aside the troubling question of whether an Anakim can even exist w/o the spark of divinity, I'll show what I would do mechanically:

Stripping an Anakim of its divinity (let's say through a Schism spell) you would simply subtract 4 from its armor class, attack rolls, checks, DCs, initiative, saves, and SR.*

The Anakim would also lose 8 points of ability score per ability.

It would also lose another 11 points from its armor class due to the loss of the deflection bonus.

All of its abilities would become subject to anti-magic, it would lose its immunities to disease, natural elements, and poision, but not ability drain.

I would rule that it would keep its natural armor as is due to its natural density.  I would also allow it to keep all of its special attacks with DCs adjusted downward.


At least that's what I would do.

Hope it helps.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Incidently all, I will probably start a new thread sometime early next week. This one is getting a tad unwieldy.*



And it's hardly about the Epic Bestiary anymore.


----------



## Fieari

Sorry, I looked it up, and it's spelled Balefire.  Wikipedia article: Here

In the books, balefire was a terrifying weapon, in that firstly, it utterly destroys anything it touches, but more over, it also destroys the soul (so that the person can never be ressurected again).

However, that wasn't the thing balefire is remembered for.  The thing balefire is famous for is that it destroys them BEFORE the balefire touches them, with all the paradoxial implications that provides.  The stronger the balefire, the further back it removes someone from time, including all the things they've done (people they killed come back to life, that sort of thing).


----------



## dante58701

Divine Ability I want to share. 

Lotus Petals (Su): When desired, Lotus continually generates a cloud of white lotus petals. While within this cloud only brief glimpses of Lotus's feet, hands, ect. and/or weapons may be seen - assuming he is attacking, although they flitter about far to quickly to become worthy targets. All attacks against Lotus have a 50% miss chance, due to the disorienting and obscuring nature of these petals. As these petals are quite real they cannot be dispelled, nor dismissed. Lotus and his allies are not hindered in any way by these petals, though others will find that their senses are obscured beyond 1/10th their reach. The radius of the cloud is equal to the radius of Lotus's divine aura.


----------



## Anabstercorian

This is a very quality video of what it might look like if the earth were to be struck by a chunk of rock about the size of the moon.  Gape in horror!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3JHdYBet_4Q


----------



## The Forsaken One

I still got some bad images about what earth would look like if you had done with it what you wanted to do with it Anab!  (Earth Oerth w/e!)

Bad illithid, no cookie!


----------



## Anabstercorian

I hadn't MEANT things to go so out of control, but I failed a sanity check at a crucial juncture and erred on the side of ashes and sorrow...


----------



## Eversius

Now find a video that shows the effects of a neutronium golem striking the Earth.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

Bah, What level of metamagic would one need to make Meteorswarm throw four of those? 
EDIT: U_K! 
If you plan to release the rest of the power section in the next update, I think I'll email you any thoughts/typos/suggestions that come up. Theres no way I post all of that on Enworld. My feat post has got to be a record or something.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey dante dude! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Exactly which portion of a grigori's abilities are divine and stem from a divine template? Or do we just add the divine template to existing statistics? Thus far extracting which abilities stem from the divine template has been a bit problematic. Primarily because I dont know which abilities are purely racial in design. For example...the Anakim, one of my favorites, which of it's abilities are purely from the quasi-divine template? Which abilities are purely racial in origin? Perhaps you could add anotations to future updates regarding this issue?
> 
> Just for my sake, and those who read this ...Im a bit befuzzled. Im kinda a stickler for rules and I want my monsters and deities to be KRUSTIAN!!! LOL!!!




All Outsiders are divine, at least partially, so you cannot really seperate the divine part, only decrease or increase it.

Historian already pointed out the main changes, de-powering the Anakim would have. Thanks for that mate. 

I'd make a half-abomination (such as The Nephilim) a hero-deity rather than a full quasi-deity (as per a full abomination).


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> And it's hardly about the Epic Bestiary anymore.




I know, its a tad misleading.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Fieari mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Sorry, I looked it up, and it's spelled Balefire.  Wikipedia article: Here
> 
> In the books, balefire was a terrifying weapon, in that firstly, it utterly destroys anything it touches, but more over, it also destroys the soul (so that the person can never be ressurected again).
> 
> However, that wasn't the thing balefire is remembered for.  The thing balefire is famous for is that it destroys them BEFORE the balefire touches them, with all the paradoxial implications that provides.  The stronger the balefire, the further back it removes someone from time, including all the things they've done (people they killed come back to life, that sort of thing).




Interesting, but I already had a power like that called Rectify (Transcendental).

If you were a fire god then it would manifest like Baelfire, for gods with other portfolios it would manifest in different ways, but the end result would be the same.

I'll have to start reading this Wheel of Time malarkey when I get the chance...which seems about 2010 at this rate.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya dante mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Divine Ability I want to share.
> 
> Lotus Petals (Su): When desired, Lotus continually generates a cloud of white lotus petals. While within this cloud only brief glimpses of Lotus's feet, hands, ect. and/or weapons may be seen - assuming he is attacking, although they flitter about far to quickly to become worthy targets. All attacks against Lotus have a 50% miss chance, due to the disorienting and obscuring nature of these petals. As these petals are quite real they cannot be dispelled, nor dismissed. Lotus and his allies are not hindered in any way by these petals, though others will find that their senses are obscured beyond 1/10th their reach. The radius of the cloud is equal to the radius of Lotus's divine aura.




Cool idea with the petals, but the power itself is a bit like the Nebulous ability of the Malakim (ie. I already have it). 

Touches like the petals I see more as aesthetic and relating to portfolios. So a nature deity (or deity of love or even of drugs/euphoria) would have its powers manifest in this sort of way.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Anabstercorian mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> This is a very quality video of what it might look like if the earth were to be struck by a chunk of rock about the size of the moon.  Gape in horror!
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=3JHdYBet_4Q




Thanks! That was very cool - it sort of reminded me of a Final Fantasy Summons-type ability. 

I also enjoyed the next video on the list - How Big is the Earth. Some of those larger stars are MASSIVE!   

...oh, and don't worry. You'll be able to blow up planets when I release the Grimoire.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I also enjoyed the next video on the list - How Big is the Earth. Some of those larger stars are MASSIVE!




If Earth was the size of a fair sized mountain, Antares would be the size of the Earth.  Boggling!



> ...oh, and don't worry. You'll be able to blow up planets when I release the Grimoire.





Ha, like you'll ever release the grimoire.  

Edit:
This isn't particularly meaningful, I just wanted to show off this picture of a monster I found.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/bookwrack/1eva116.jpg


----------



## Eversius

Quick question, UK. Can monstrous gods give themselves the ability to wield objects like a humanoid, like altering their manifestation into a more anthropomorphic shape?


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> If Earth was the size of a fair sized mountain, Antares would be the size of the Earth.  Boggling!




Are you sure about that? The difference looked a bit more pronounced.



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Ha, like you'll ever release the grimoire.




Cheeky scamp! 



			
				Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> Edit:
> This isn't particularly meaningful, I just wanted to show off this picture of a monster I found.
> 
> http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y182/bookwrack/1eva116.jpg




Very cool indeed. You don't know what anime thats from do you? I would hazard Neon Genesis Evangelion but I have never seen that show myself although its the only one I know with a purple mech.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Eversius dude! 



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> Quick question, UK. Can monstrous gods give themselves the ability to wield objects like a humanoid, like altering their manifestation into a more anthropomorphic shape?




I'm not sure why they would bother, most gods take on a shape they are comfortable with and stick with that.

Most can certainly shapechange in some capacity, so if it was really necessary theres no reason why they couldn't do it.

What exactly had you in mind?


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Very cool indeed. You don't know what anime thats from do you? I would hazard Neon Genesis Evangelion but I have never seen that show myself although its the only one I know with a purple mech.




There's no doubt that that's supposed to be from Evangelion, but oddly enough, I don't recognize the monstrous opponent it's facing. I've seen the entire series, including the movies, more than once, but that thing seems to be new. My only guess is that that's either from a manga, novel, or video game, or it's just a fan-made pic.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Got a question about monday's coming release:
In your powers section, are you going to have power-equivalents to all the powers possessed by creatures in the Bestiary? 
If you needed "filler" powers, that may be where to start. Also if you need more divine abilities, consider "uber" versions of epic feats. (Like an uber fast healing feat if you don't already have it)
Oh, I didn't get much sleep last night, but I came to a conclusion: *Drumroll* Nexus Dragons would make great pets if they wern't so darn big. (Or drive you mad or nullify your soul)


----------



## Eversius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi Eversius dude!
> 
> I'm not sure why they would bother, most gods take on a shape they are comfortable with and stick with that.
> 
> Most can certainly shapechange in some capacity, so if it was really necessary theres no reason why they couldn't do it.
> 
> What exactly had you in mind?




A transcendental tarrasque.  

I was thinking of using an advanced tarrasque as the demiurge, but I'll have to wait and see what becomes of Ascension.


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
Hows the cover painting coming? 
You said you were working at about 60x40 cm, which, atleast once you are done, makes for a nice painting to hang up. (Assuming you don't just do it all in photoshop, though from the look of your work, I think you do alot of it by hand)
Also, which chapter goes on the chopping block after chapter 4? I was helping a friend convert a character to your system (Demi deity of archery  ECL 80). Feats and levels and stats are done, items I think are done, he does have 4 divine slots, but those will be filled once Ch 4 is done. Is the chapter on Portfolios next?
Also, is there a limit to converting Divine ability slots into feats? I haven't seen your divine or cosmic abilities yet, but a demi deity pileing on 24 more Metamagic Capacity feats would give spellcasters a rediculous edge over fellow deities. Of course, at high end play, Alter Reality becomes a Deities best friend. (BTW, since Wizards instituted the Swift and Immediate variety of free actions, does your Alter Reality fall under either, or is just usable on your own turn?)
I hope things are going well with said cover, just so the publishers get off your back.


----------



## Anabstercorian

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hiya mate!
> 
> Howdy do!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upper_Krust said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you sure about that? The difference looked a bit more pronounced.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Quite sure.  I did the math.  If Antares were the size of the earth, the Earth would be about 2 km across.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upper_Krust said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Very cool indeed. You don't know what anime thats from do you? I would hazard Neon Genesis Evangelion but I have never seen that show myself although its the only one I know with a purple mech.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> It is, in fact, a fan made design for an NGE Angel.  A dude won a contest and the artists drew it for him.
Click to expand...


----------



## Fieari

Eversius said:
			
		

> A transcendental tarrasque.
> 
> I was thinking of using an advanced tarrasque as the demiurge, but I'll have to wait and see what becomes of Ascension.



Are you thinking along the lines of Blackdirge's "God Eater" or my "Lavos", in terms of being closer to the theme behind the idea?

Err, that is to say, does it fill the role of a malevolant big monster for other "big guns" to worry about, or an impassive force that happens to be there (but is still dangerous)?


----------



## Eversius

Fieari said:
			
		

> Are you thinking along the lines of Blackdirge's "God Eater" or my "Lavos", in terms of being closer to the theme behind the idea?
> 
> Err, that is to say, does it fill the role of a malevolant big monster for other "big guns" to worry about, or an impassive force that happens to be there (but is still dangerous)?




I must admit, your take on Lavos was quite an inspiration.

As for the role of such a creature, it's supposed to be one hell of a "malevolent big monster", to say the least. The beast that spells Armageddon for the universe when it awakens. It's a shame I can't go over 998 HD with the Demiurge template.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Oi Alzrius dude - is Neon Genesis Evangelion worth acquiring/watching?

Hey Ltheb matey! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Got a question about monday's coming release:
> In your powers section, are you going to have power-equivalents to all the powers possessed by creatures in the Bestiary?




I imagine I certainly have at least 90% of those powers covered, although some may well be listed under different names.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> If you needed "filler" powers, that may be where to start. Also if you need more divine abilities, consider "uber" versions of epic feats. (Like an uber fast healing feat if you don't already have it)




I won't take that approach. To me its cheating. If something is simply a stacked version of a weaker ability or feat then its unworthy of inclusion in the book.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Oh, I didn't get much sleep last night, but I came to a conclusion: *Drumroll* Nexus Dragons would make great pets if they wern't so darn big. (Or drive you mad or nullify your soul)


----------



## Upper_Krust

Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> U_K!
> Hows the cover painting coming?




Slowly (I have been dividing my time between it and Ascension).

I can't imagine I'll have it finished for Monday, however, I will still spend Monday itself working on Ascension.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> You said you were working at about 60x40 cm, which, atleast once you are done, makes for a nice painting to hang up.




Not exactly. My board wouldn't allow for it, so its 48 x 36 (thats off the top of my head, but something along those lines). US Letter size is more 4x3 than 3x2 anyway.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> (Assuming you don't just do it all in photoshop, though from the look of your work, I think you do alot of it by hand)




The only thing I do in photoshop is join the scans together - although its useful for making the lightning look better too.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also, which chapter goes on the chopping block after chapter 4?




Chapter 3 - if by 'chopping block' you mean which will I be doing...?



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I was helping a friend convert a character to your system (Demi deity of archery  ECL 80). Feats and levels and stats are done, items I think are done, he does have 4 divine slots, but those will be filled once Ch 4 is done. Is the chapter on Portfolios next?




Yes.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Also, is there a limit to converting Divine ability slots into feats? I haven't seen your divine or cosmic abilities yet, but a demi deity pileing on 24 more Metamagic Capacity feats would give spellcasters a rediculous edge over fellow deities.




I would generally limit it to 1 such feat per 2 Hit Dice/Levels.



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> Of course, at high end play, Alter Reality becomes a Deities best friend. (BTW, since Wizards instituted the Swift and Immediate variety of free actions, does your Alter Reality fall under either, or is just usable on your own turn?)




I'll have to check that out, darn Swift Actions indeed! 



			
				Ltheb Silverfrond said:
			
		

> I hope things are going well with said cover, just so the publishers get off your back.




It looks good, I have the perspective in place and all the major figures done, I don't have all the detail drawn yet though, so 'painting' has not yet commenced as such, but thats usually less time consuming than the drawing itself.

One thing I was worried about was that in making the perspective too severe, the main characters become very small, so the perspective is just about pronounced enough to make a difference.


----------



## thundershot

I printed out and read Ascension. The ENStore says it's been updated since I downloaded it, yet I don't notice a difference....

Also, when the next version comes out, can you tell me which pages were updated so I know which to print out? (unlikely, but worth a shot)

Can't wait! Oh, and I'd rather you delay the following update 20 days if it means you getting the cover done. I want these books in print, man!



Chris


----------



## Alzrius

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Oi Alzrius dude - is Neon Genesis Evangelion worth acquiring/watching?




It's always difficult answering questions of "is X anime good?" because the question is relative; different people will like different things. I personally enjoyed the series because of the high degree of characterization, the existential themes, and the fact that I could personally relate to the main character (Shinji). Your mileage may vary, however.

Evangelion has been referred to as the single best anime of the 1990's. I don't know if that's true or not, but it does seem to certainly merit the title. While it may seem to be another "mecha versus monsters" anime, that's just the surface. It is, in fact, far deeper, dealing with universal themes of why people treat each other the way they do, why everyone feels intrinsically lonely, and self-discovery. It's characters are also notable in that they come off as actual people, instead of merely conveying various archetypes. The religious subtext of the series is used to further underline the esoteric nature of what's happening, and how it ultimately affects everyone (which becomes more literal as the series progresses).

Having said that, my opinion is that the series is absolutely worth watching, and acquiring. It's truly epic in both scope and presentation, and does exceptionally well in telling a powerful story that ultimately has meaning for us all. If you haven't seen it yet, I definately recommend doing so.


----------



## Zoatebix

...Just skip the last episode and all of the movies   They will spoil the whole experience.  If you want to have fond memories of Evangelion do yourself a favor wonder about how fabulous the ending could be for the rest of your life


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi thundershot! 

I presume you sw the new Transformers movie pics of the Autobots...?



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> I printed out and read Ascension. The ENStore says it's been updated since I downloaded it, yet I don't notice a difference....




It hasn't been updated since you downloaded. I'm telling you exactly when its being updated.



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Also, when the next version comes out, can you tell me which pages were updated so I know which to print out? (unlikely, but worth a shot)




You know, eventually probably all those pages will see changes, so I wouldn't advocate printing things out at this stage unless you have access to free paper and printing ink?



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Can't wait! Oh, and I'd rather you delay the following update 20 days if it means you getting the cover done. I want these books in print, man!




Well no matter how fast I get the cover done the book won't be released before October. But I appreciate the interest nonetheless.


----------



## Impeesa

I... I started playing World of Warcraft one day. I stopped reading message boards, since it sucked up all the spare time I used to do that with. Losing my connection to the outside world, I lost all sense of time. With the Worship Points System released, I can only presume that the life I left behind is long since gone. Tell me, do you remember me? What year is it? And if we hold the WPS in our hands, can it be read by our brave men and women on the Mars base as well (I'm assuming we have one by now)? Thanks,

--Impeesa--


----------



## Upper_Krust

Howdy stranger! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> I... I started playing World of Warcraft one day. I stopped reading message boards, since it sucked up all the spare time I used to do that with. Losing my connection to the outside world, I lost all sense of time.




I hear Warcraft can do that to you! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> With the Worship Points System released, I can only presume that the life I left behind is long since gone.




Hell hath indeed frozen over and pigs do fly.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Tell me, do you remember me?




I don't even remember yesterday - who are you again!?   



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> What year is it?




2026, we are just getting ready for the launch of 6th edition D&D.



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> And if we hold the WPS in our hands, can it be read by our brave men and women on the Mars base as well (I'm assuming we have one by now)? Thanks,




Well I changed the name to Immortals Handbook: Ascension just to confuse people.

Unfortunately Mars was destroyed by a Neutronium Golem.


----------



## thundershot

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hi thundershot!
> 
> I presume you sw the new Transformers movie pics of the Autobots...?




Pics of the Autobots, as well as pics of several robot modes and movie toy prototypes. Seeing all of that made up for the fact that I'll have to wait until mid-September to see Thor kick ass in CIVIL WAR #4!





> It hasn't been updated since you downloaded. I'm telling you exactly when its being updated.




I didn't think so. It was just weird that the ENShop said it was.





> You know, eventually probably all those pages will see changes, so I wouldn't advocate printing things out at this stage unless you have access to free paper and printing ink?




Yeah, I know. I was going to do some editing for you. I suppose I could continue the red-pen treatment on the copy I have now, and compare with the next one, and submit what I have to you. I'd love to help out! It's easy to miss things when you've got 10 things on your plate, and the meatballs are rolling away. 





> Well no matter how fast I get the cover done the book won't be released before October. But I appreciate the interest nonetheless.





Better October than November, though, right? 



Thanks!
Chris


----------



## Impeesa

Gave it a read, haven't really absorbed enough to give a mechanical critique yet. Mechanics and flavor are of course very cool. I will say, however, that I'm glad there's still proofreading ahead. The writing seems quite intentionally Gygaxian, which is cool, but it's easy to accidentally cross from there to Siembiedian style. Complete sentences and all that. 

--Impeesa--


----------



## Fieari

So, tommorow, we'll be able to fully stat up disciples and prophets... yay!  I guess we'll be waiting until the 31st before we can fully stat up actual immortals fully...


----------



## Cheiromancer

Impeesa said:
			
		

> The writing seems quite intentionally Gygaxian, which is cool, but it's easy to accidentally cross from there to Siembiedian style.




I'm not familiar with "Siembiedian" as an adjective.  Who is it, and what did s/he write?


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> I'm not familiar with "Siembiedian" as an adjective.  Who is it, and what did s/he write?



Really?  The founder/owner of Palladium? Kevin Siembieda is his name.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Pics of the Autobots, as well as pics of several robot modes and movie toy prototypes.




Not sure if I like the Optimus Prime truck form myself.



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Seeing all of that made up for the fact that I'll have to wait until mid-September to see Thor kick ass in CIVIL WAR #4!




I know its an agonizing wait.



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> I didn't think so. It was just weird that the ENShop said it was.




Listen to me not them. 



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Yeah, I know. I was going to do some editing for you. I suppose I could continue the red-pen treatment on the copy I have now, and compare with the next one, and submit what I have to you. I'd love to help out! It's easy to miss things when you've got 10 things on your plate, and the meatballs are rolling away.




No worries mate.



			
				thundershot said:
			
		

> Better October than November, though, right?




I suppose the sooner the better for all concerned.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hi Impeesa dude! 



			
				Impeesa said:
			
		

> Gave it a read, haven't really absorbed enough to give a mechanical critique yet. Mechanics and flavor are of course very cool. I will say, however, that I'm glad there's still proofreading ahead. The writing seems quite intentionally Gygaxian, which is cool, but it's easy to accidentally cross from there to Siembiedian style. Complete sentences and all that.




Writing is still early days. Once I have it all down I can go over it and tighten everything up, and the ink on the feats chapter wasn't dry when I uploaded it, so its very early.

I suspect tomorrow is going to be somewhat similar with regards the Divine and Cosmic abilities.


----------



## Sledge

I wonder if there is some connection between transformers and epic games?


----------



## paradox42

Wow, I've finally gotten through the backlog! This is what happens when one moves and the cable company takes 12 days to turn on the new Internet connection- 5 pages of new posts to slog through!

I, too, have finally downloaded and read through the first Ascension beta release. Perhaps I should keep comments until tomorrow when I'll have a whole new release to read through, but I wanted to add my kudos to the pile for the Event System- brilliant design. The math is easy to work out, and the system becomes particularly easy to use with Poilbrun's helpful little spreadsheet (thanks for that!). I've already started going back through my group's old adventures to see where Events have given them some worshipful followers- not only because I fully expect my players to shoot for divinity someday, but also because it'll help me quantify just how much they've helped the gods they've done quests for (knowingly or otherwise). One minor difficulty may be determining what might happen if an event affects multiple planes of existence at the same time, but it should be possible to extrapolate from existing rules and examples. In any case the system itself seems remarkably smooth and robust to me- excellent design.

The divinity templates will require tweaking to fit my game, but that's largely because my core assumptions about divine beings don't entirely match U_K's- specifically, my HD assumptions by divine rank are much higher (my demigods, for example, are assumed to have at least 120 HD in their true forms, whereas Greater Deities typically have 400 or more). While I had rules in previous versions of the game for beings beyond the level of actual deities (those U_K calles Sidereals, Eternals, and so on), I hadn't detailed them to the extent that U_K has, which makes Ascension quite helpful in that regard. Though the flavor of the Ascension rules doesn't quite match my own notions, new ideas have been sparked, and new connections between concepts made which can only improve the whole. In any case since U_K showed his reasoning behind the existing templates, it shouldn't be difficult to work out changes.

Thank you for all the dedicated research and work, U_K- we all appreciate it!

Feats... I have some favorites and antifavorites, but I think it's best to hold off on that until after tomorrow's update since that sections getting a major update anyway.  Some of my own concerns were, predictably, already addressed- as I said, this is what happens when the cable company drags its feet for so long. I'll refrain from growling on the boards.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey Sledge matey! 



			
				Sledge said:
			
		

> I wonder if there is some connection between transformers and epic games?




There might be after I detail my Inevitables: Constructs in disguise!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey paradox42 matey! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Wow, I've finally gotten through the backlog! This is what happens when one moves and the cable company takes 12 days to turn on the new Internet connection- 5 pages of new posts to slog through!








			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> I, too, have finally downloaded and read through the first Ascension beta release. Perhaps I should keep comments until tomorrow when I'll have a whole new release to read through,




Okay.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> but I wanted to add my kudos to the pile for the Event System- brilliant design.




Thanks. 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> The math is easy to work out, and the system becomes particularly easy to use with Poilbrun's helpful little spreadsheet (thanks for that!). I've already started going back through my group's old adventures to see where Events have given them some worshipful followers- not only because I fully expect my players to shoot for divinity someday, but also because it'll help me quantify just how much they've helped the gods they've done quests for (knowingly or otherwise).




So its doubly useful.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> One minor difficulty may be determining what might happen if an event affects multiple planes of existence at the same time, but it should be possible to extrapolate from existing rules and examples.




Should be pretty straightforward if you just follow the guidelines.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> In any case the system itself seems remarkably smooth and robust to me- excellent design.




Thanks - that was the idea of course. 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> The divinity templates will require tweaking to fit my game, but that's largely because my core assumptions about divine beings don't entirely match U_K's- specifically,




Even I can't please all the people all of the time.   



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> my HD assumptions by divine rank are much higher (my demigods, for example, are assumed to have at least 120 HD in their true forms, whereas Greater Deities typically have 400 or more).




Well I am sure certain people will have their own methods, although my versions are designed to maintain as much interaction as possible (between mortals, immortals and each divine status) while at the same time making sure each divine status is a tangible increase and not just a token one. Roughly speaking each Divine Status is worth two beings of the previous status.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> While I had rules in previous versions of the game for beings beyond the level of actual deities (those U_K calles Sidereals, Eternals, and so on), I hadn't detailed them to the extent that U_K has, which makes Ascension quite helpful in that regard.
> 
> Glad you are still getting use out of them.
> 
> Of course what you could do is exchange my Elder Ones for your Demigods, Lesser Gods for Old Ones etc. Since that seems to better parallel your Hit Dice at least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paradox42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though the flavor of the Ascension rules doesn't quite match my own notions,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wait until I have things finished. I'd love to have the time to go over ever paragraph and add in something from the fifty notebooks of ideas I have scribbled down. But at the moment I am pressed for time getting the bare bones down.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paradox42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> new ideas have been sparked, and new connections between concepts made which can only improve the whole. In any case since U_K showed his reasoning behind the existing templates, it shouldn't be difficult to work out changes.
> 
> Thank you for all the dedicated research and work, U_K- we all appreciate it!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> If people are enjoying it (even at this early stage) then it makes all the effort worthwhile.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> paradox42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Feats... I have some favorites and antifavorites, but I think it's best to hold off on that until after tomorrow's update since that sections getting a major update anyway.  Some of my own concerns were, predictably, already addressed- as I said, this is what happens when the cable company drags its feet for so long. I'll refrain from growling on the boards.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Well I doubt I'll have the epic feats section 'finished' but there are indeed changes.
Click to expand...


----------



## dante58701

?This one? What do you think...is it fine or in need of revisions. Divine ability or Cosmic ability?

Paradoxic Prestigiousness (Ex): The deity can possess two classes (core and/or prestige) that are traditionally one another's polar opposites, provided the deity meets the remaining prerequisites for each. This ability allows the deity to ignore Ex-Class Member restrictions. Thus the deity could, for example, be both a druid and a blighter simultaneously without losing access to any of the opposed class's features. Furthermore, neither class is adversely affected by the other. Thus the deity, for example, does not lose any of the features of either class, even if this would ordinarily be the case.


----------



## paradox42

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> paradox42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> While I had rules in previous versions of the game for beings beyond the level of actual deities (those U_K calles Sidereals, Eternals, and so on), I hadn't detailed them to the extent that U_K has, which makes Ascension quite helpful in that regard.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you are still getting use out of them.
> 
> Of course what you could do is exchange my Elder Ones for your Demigods, Lesser Gods for Old Ones etc. Since that seems to better parallel your Hit Dice at least.
Click to expand...


Actually I'd keep the powers essentially the same and just inflate the hit die limits, since the powers (as far as I can tell) are the primary add-on to the CR granted by the template. Obviously this will significantly alter the part that gets added from equipment, but I actually have significantly different assumptions for equipment anyway (for example, I wasn't planning on going with the four-artifact limit in an absolute sense), so no matter what that part of the ECL/CR change would have to be at least closely examined.Honestly, the power level of basic mortals in my game is very different from the base WotC numbers anyway, so I can't go with your assumptions even on that general principle since you based your numbers (at least for a starting point) on theirs.  My starting point is higher-power, so I have to inflate the deities to match, at the very least- if that makes sense.

Another part of this ties in with the fact that my world has a large number of "fantasy science-fiction" elements in it, meaning high-tech weapons like energy guns and starships in addition to the traditional sword & sorcery fare. Assumptions for deity power are just... different, in a setting like that. The explanation of where the power comes from is different, and the effects of using the power will be as well to keep internal consistency. The differences from the IH are small ones, to be sure, but they will require tweaks to make it all fit.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> paradox42 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Though the flavor of the Ascension rules doesn't quite match my own notions,
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well I am sure certain people will have their own methods, although my versions are designed to maintain as much interaction as possible (between mortals, immortals and each divine status) while at the same time making sure each divine status is a tangible increase and not just a token one. Roughly speaking each Divine Status is worth two beings of the previous status.
Click to expand...


Exactly. I wanted a larger power gap between my deities and mortals, and since my mortals are more powerful as a general base I have to greatly inflate the power of deities to get that. That said, I do still have plenty of interaction between deities and mortals in my game; the players are just made aware very early on that deities are *not* to be trifled with.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Wait until I have things finished. I'd love to have the time to go over ever paragraph and add in something from the fifty notebooks of ideas I have scribbled down. But at the moment I am pressed for time getting the bare bones down.



No, that's fine; I'm certainly not saying your flavor is bad or wrong!  I just have a game setting that's very different from traditional sword & sorcery fantasy, so I have to explain things differently.

The particular example with Sidereals involves the in-game explanation for what the beings actually are- my players *have* already encountered a Sidereal being, or at least the Divine-level "avatar" of one, and were given an explanation of what the "Overgods" actually are as beings. What I said was that deities have their power because their minds are housed, not in physical bodies like mortals, but in constructs of pure energy. They can form physical bodies to make interaction with the universe more convenient, but they don't need to to survive. In that light, the Overgods are another level entirely- they exist not as energy, but as patterns in the quantum probability waves that give rise to physical reality. They can form "avatars" of energy which are effectively deities in their own right, but they don't need to any more than deities need to form physical bodies. And of course those deity-avatars can themselves form avatars in physical form if the being wants to.

In light of that, your rules (which seem based on the assumption that Sidereals and other immortal beings are, in some qualitative sense, more similar to mortals than my flavor allows) may need some tweaking, particularly in the gaps between "levels" of the various entities. Thus, I will tweak them once I have more complete rules to examine and can see the complete spread- where it matches, and where it doesn't. Obviously, your explanations about Sidereals do match mine in one very interesting and important point- both of us have them as essentially "written" into the underlying fabric of the universe (or multiverse) itself. We just seem to differ on exactly how their power arises and a little on what they can do with it.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> If people are enjoying it (even at this early stage) then it makes all the effort worthwhile.



Glad to hear it! This really is a monumental effort, and it's already surpassed Primal Order (the previous "definitive" work on game rules for deities in my collection) in utility and idea generation, in my eyes. I plan to get every IH book you put out, however long they take, and my players already know my game will be using the IH rules (or anyway as much of them as I can). In fact they already came up against a few critters from the Bestiary Volume I, but that's neither here nor there.


----------



## dante58701

Cosmic or Divine?

Blight Lord (Ex):The deity possesses the integrated class features of a Blighter, in addition to the deity's preexisting integrated class features, if any. The deity's effective level in this second integrated class is equal to one half their hit dice.


Lich Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a lich, even if this would ordinarily be impossible. The deity is not truly undead, thus retaining their constitution score and constitution modifier, though they are so very like the dead as to be indistinguishable via casual observation.

Paradoxic Prestigiousness (Ex): The deity can possess two classes (core and/or prestige) that are traditionally one another's polar opposites, provided the deity meets the remaining prerequisites for each. This ability allows the deity to ignore Ex-Class Member restrictions. Thus the deity could, for example, be both a druid and a blighter simultaneously without losing access to either of the opposed classes' features. Furthermore, neither class is adversely affected by the other. Thus the deity, for example, does not lose any of the features of either class, even if this would ordinarily be the case. 

Plant Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a plant, even if this would ordinarily be impossible.


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

dante58701 said:
			
		

> Lich Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a lich, even if this would ordinarily be impossible. The deity is not truly undead, thus retaining their constitution score and constitution modifier, though they are so very like the dead as to be indistinguishable via casual observation.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> Plant Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a plant, even if this would ordinarily be impossible.




WotC pegs undead benefits as worth a divine ability without many prereqs, so (assuming WotC and U_K are in agreement on this note) I would say that lich traits are still divine. Plant traits are definitely not worth a cosmic slot.


----------



## dante58701

Im currently using this ability for a low ranking deity who serves one of tiamat's red dragon consorts.

Disciple of the Red Wyrm (Ex): The deity possesses all the abilities of a red dragon, of an age category that inherently possesses a number of hit dice equal to the deity's outsider hit dice, rounded down to the nearest age category. Additionally, their natural form becomes so like that of a red dragon of that age category, that they become virtually indistinguishable from a red dragon of that age category, even though they retain all the abilities of their previous form in addition to those granted by this divine ability. Furthermore since they are not quite natural, they do not acquire draconic ability through aging. Instead they must advance these abilities and their form via accrual of experience. Thus the deity's approximated level of power is entirely reliant upon it's advancement as an outsider. Finally, it is important to note that, while the deity is in fact a dragon, their type remains outsider. Deities without outsider hit dice cannot acquire this divine ability, nor may any who possess the cold subtype.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Don't have time to reply to posts today, just came on to say that I'll postpone the Beta 0.7 release for a few hours tonight so that I can get as much as possible done and release it sometime before midnight GMT.

If I have time after that I will answer posts, otherwise you'll have to wait until tomorrow.


----------



## Fieari

Lessee... quick calculation, Eastern time is GMT -5, so that'd make it 7pm eastern.  Gotcha.


----------



## Pssthpok

Ah, that removes the temptation to skip my Oscar Wilde class in favor of pouring over the Cosmics.


----------



## dante58701

sooo....6pm central time?


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

5pm here. 2 more hours, then.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey all! 

Okay, I just uploaded it. I could have done another half hour but I was having trouble concentrating on the screen afetr about 13 hours solid on the 'puter'. So I just decided to call it a night.

I will stress now that you won't be missing much if you wait until the next update (though I suspect that won't deter most of you). 

Its only 13 more pages (Of about half the Divine Abilities) and the Cosmic Abilities table, and many of the divine abilities are themselves half finished. It was only about 25 extra hours of work from last week (since I was busy doing the Bestiary cover).

Don't tell me about spelling mistakes, grammatical errors, wrong prerequisites or anything of that nature.

I also know that the Effect abilities are going to take a lot more explaining.

*Could someone just check the downloads working okay so I can crawl into my bed and bid you all goodnight.*


----------



## dante58701

(Clock ticking) tick...tick...tick...tick...tick...tick...(crickets chirping)...chirp...chirp...chirp...chirp...chirp...chirp


----------



## dante58701

Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## historian

It worked for me U_K.

Thanks


----------



## Ltheb Silverfrond

U_K!
I again am awed. Your divine aura extends through PDF files. 
Would it be possible to take every stacking [Effect] Ability (Like Quantum effect) and have them all stack for some super-uber mega-vorpal-oblivion? Or would you just choose which one at a time to apply?
Suddenly the Neutronium Golem looks like a real weakling. (Not really. Make him sentient, and give him some cheese divine powers too)
Speaking of such foes, with the Goetic Blood power, if I took 100000 damage, could I "bleed" one? (In the bestiarty you said Summoned creature CR = spell level x 1.5...) This seems really good for Time Lords...


----------



## Kalitharus

Neutronium Golems... Cylons on steroids!


----------



## Pssthpok

Well well... wow. 10 more days before these are fleshed out?
Wil lwe see the description for the Cosmic/Transcendant abilities as well?


----------



## Servitor of Wrath

Got it! 

I have a question about the Tensegrity feat: How does it affect your ability to lift and wield orichalcum weapons?


----------



## Eversius

Great stuff, as always UK.

Even the mere descriptions have me fascinated!


----------



## paradox42

Yeah, what Eversius said.  Most impressive. And... now we can properly make our own Adamic dragons! We have a list of Divine powers to choose from for the stacking-per-age-category thing! This should be fun.


----------



## Rhuarc

Hey UK,

really nice update, love the new abilties 

Just one question, maybe I missed that part but what kind of save DC is commonly used for the [Effect] abilities? The usual 10 + 1/2 level/HD + divine bonus + attribut modifier?

Thanks again


----------



## Paragon

so i remember you mentioning a new epic spellcasting system that i think you said at one  time would be part of the ascension, i'm guess that will be in the grimore (sic?)  do out sometime in 2009?
j/k


----------



## Fieari

Some tweaks I think would be good...

Achilles Heel: Awesome ability!  Wouldn't it be easier though, just to grant DR 2xHD/Nat 20?  And then specify that all criticals against someone with this ability do maximum damage automatically, and that even those who'd be normally immune to criticals are vulnerable to them with this ability?  Add in a special note that knowing where the spot is can also bypass the DR as the ability currently states, and this is perfect.  I'm -really- impressed with this one.

Adjuration: Total allies yes, but what about any given single ally?  You might want to set a limit there... perhaps at 1/2 HD?  Or 3/4?  Otherwise, once per day, a mere intermediate deity might summon an Old One...

Perfect Mind: Might want to add that this ability STACKS with those 15 wishes, because otherwise it'd be a waste, I think.  Probably be cheaper just to make the wishes, esspecially with the "Make a wish" epic feat you offer...


----------



## Anabstercorian

*Response to EPIC FEATS*

Amazing Pockets: Looks good.  Conceptually BRILLIANT.  Might be wise to have the prerequisites scale up as you buy more of the feat.

Anoxia: ...This is very questionable in balance.  Being able to rack up bonus feats is immensely powerful.  Are they limited to non-epic feats?

Apophenia: Looks fine.

Automatic Metamagic Capacity: Looks fine.

Automatic Writing: Probably needs a Spellcraft rank prerequisite, and you should clarify on how it functions with Sorcerers.

Blood Rage: I'd clarify that the bonus to strength from rage increases by +4 - that removes all concerns about stacking clarity.

Cats Fall: Given the roll of the Tumble skill in this, as well as the Tumble epic skill check that allows exactly this, this should probably have a tumble rank prerequisite.

Concerted Inspiration: The 'benefit' and 'special' text contradict each other a bit ('Two bards with this ability' sort of implies that both need the feat) but the special text is pretty clearly dominant, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Cryptomnesia: The prerequisites should probably include the prerequisites of the divine ability...  Or something.  I'm not sure.  It's a little odd to have a plot device like this be a player option.

Divine Guidance: Uh.  Wow.  That's a little scary, but if you think it's balanced I'll trust you on it.

Divine Providence: Looks fine.

Divine Retribution: Define 'one final attack' more clearly.  Is this a spell?  A swing of a sword?  A standard action?  How fast can you make these attacks?

Divine Right: Pretty swank, but doesn't the power potentially vary pretty wildly depending on the patron/ess deity?

Eclectic Defense: Do you have to pick up the furniture and such?  Does it apply an armor check penalty?

Eclectic Shot: Looks fine.  Do you get to pick what sort of weapon it functions as?

Eclectic Strike: Looks fine.  Do you get to pick what sort of weapon it functions as?

Egg-Born: Looks weird.  But fine.

Enchanted Strike: Looks fine.  Should probably have some sort of limit to prevent people from spamming it to get +20 hand weapons.

Enlarge Strike: Looks super fun.

Epic Potency: Looks fine.

Epic Shield Focus: Have you even READ the shield rules?  This feat does nothing you can't already do at first level.  Scrap it, and shame on you for writing it!

Ether Goer: Looks swank.

Expert Strike: Define 'fight an opponent'.  Do you have to actually attack him?  Is it sufficient to watch him fight?

Extra Quivering Palm: Looks fine.

Fire Baptism: Define 'fight an opponent'.  Do you have to actually attack him?  Is it sufficient to watch him fight?

Forked Tongue: I'd replace Diplomacy 30 with Bluff 30.  Otherwise, this is VERY cool.  What's the saving throw on the Confusion effect?

Good [Saving Throw]: How does this interact with multiclass characters?

Greater Multiweapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Greater Three-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Haleness: Looks fine.

Haunting Music: Looks like an interesting concept...  I like it.  It's clearly unfinished so I've no further comment.

Heavy Armor Mastery: Looks fine.

Heavy Fortification: Very cool.

Hibernate: Do you age while you hibernate?  I don't think you should - it doesn't quite seem epic-worthy otherwise.

Impaling Shot: Unfinished, no comment.

Improved Combat Expertise: Looks fine.

Improved Critical Multiplier: Improved Critical only applies to a single weapon.  Does the same requirement affect this?

Improved Dodge: Looks fine.

Improved Multiweapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Improved Power Attack: Looks a little nuts.  Power Attack is one of those things that everyone needs at the higher levels, so making it even more powerful is kind of scary.  How does this interact with two-handed weapons?

Improved Spellcasting: Looks fine.

Improved Three-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Improved Toughness: Looks fine.

Improved Turning: Looks fine.

Incorruptable Body: Misspelled, should be Incorruptible.  Otherwise it looks pretty awesome.

Inedia: Looks fine.

Insomnious: Looks fine.

Killer Instinct: A little terrifying, frankly. This multiplies an assassins lethality by a factor of about 9.  I urge caution.

Light Armor Mastery: Looks fine.

Light Fortification: Looks fine.

Malifiecus: I'd give a nap-length-to-divination-spell-equivalent listing, but I'm formal that way.

Mantic Frenzy: Unfinished, no comment

Mathesis: I'd ignore the 10% error margin thing - kind of pointless.

Medium Armor Mastery: Looks fine.

Metamagic Freedom: Looks fine.

Moderate Fortifcation: Looks fine.

Nosodic: I don't approve.  The worse a disease is, the more powerful this feat becomes - I don't like 'scaling' feats.  What's this from, mythologically?

Perfect Multi-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Perfect Sunder: Yowza!  Terrifying.  I likey.

Perfect Three Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Phrenology: I'd ignore the 10% error margin thing - kind of pointless.

Piercing Shot: I'd clarify that your shots can continue to strike any foe who would have cover from you thanks to the first target.

Plastic Soul: Not sure how I feel about this, given that a sufficient Escape Artist allows the same thing.

Power Attack Mastery: I like this.  This one's thinking outside the box.

Pre-Emptive Strike: Base Attack Bonus +1 is kind of redundant. It's not really clear when this feat functions, to me, but I'm literal minded...

Prehensile Hair: Looks good to me.

Second Strike: Looks good to me.  Very classy.

Shadow Body: This feat's mechanics are EXTREMELY vague.  Conceptually, however, it's very awesome, so good luck!

Shield Mastery: Looks fine, though needs editing.

Sideways Stealing: I approve!

Silent Song: Looks good to me.

Silver Tongue: What's the save DC?

Sixth Sense: Awesome.

Sky Walker: Very cool.

Sonic Strike: Looks good to me.

Soothsayer: I like it.  How do you define 'lies', same as the 'detect lies' spell?

Star Child: Nice.

Stellar Music: Looks fine to me.

Sticky Strike: Yay, it's my Shredding Attack ability!  I approve.

Subtle Body: Looks fine to me.

Superior Cleave: Chop chop!

Superior Critical: Looks fine to me.

Superior Disarm: Terrifying!  There should be some sort of disarm-countering technique, some sort of weapon-calling kung fu.

Superior Flurry: Looks fine.

Superior Power Attack: Yikes.  How does this interact wiht two-handed weapons?

Superior Sunder: Looks pretty cool to me.

Superior Trip: Terrifying!  I like.

Supreme Dodge: Looks fine.

Supreme Toughness: Manly.

Sure Shot: Looks fine.

Tenacious Body: Looks fine to me.

Tensegrity: How's this interact with heavy weapons and armor?

Terrene Body: Is this true immortality, without the 'mysterious death when your 'time is up'' thing?

Three Weapon Defense: Looks fine.

Three-Weapon Fighting: Looks fine.

Three-Weapon Rend: Wait.  If you've got the first sword in your left hand, and your second sword in your right hand, how are you using the third weapon to rend...?  Never mind.  Looks fine.

Timely Dodge: Needs editing and clarification.  Safety Among Enemies Technique for the win.

Titanic Wildshape: Are there any titanic animals?

Underwalker: Looks fine.

Universal Energy Strike: Looks fine.

Venomous Wildshape: Needs editing and clarification.

Weapon Abatement: Looks good.  The Special text is a little reduntant.

Weapon Mastery: Looks awesome.

Widen Attack: Not really finished.  Hope it comes out good.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Okay, lets make a dent in this post backlog...

Hiya mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> ?This one? What do you think...is it fine or in need of revisions. Divine ability or Cosmic ability?
> 
> Paradoxic Prestigiousness (Ex): The deity can possess two classes (core and/or prestige) that are traditionally one another's polar opposites, provided the deity meets the remaining prerequisites for each. This ability allows the deity to ignore Ex-Class Member restrictions. Thus the deity could, for example, be both a druid and a blighter simultaneously without losing access to any of the opposed class's features. Furthermore, neither class is adversely affected by the other. Thus the deity, for example, does not lose any of the features of either class, even if this would ordinarily be the case.




I'd probably make that Divine.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hey paradox42 dude! 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Actually I'd keep the powers essentially the same and just inflate the hit die limits, since the powers (as far as I can tell) are the primary add-on to the CR granted by the template.




Indeed.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Obviously this will significantly alter the part that gets added from equipment, but I actually have significantly different assumptions for equipment anyway (for example, I wasn't planning on going with the four-artifact limit in an absolute sense), so no matter what that part of the ECL/CR change would have to be at least closely examined.




Okay, I won't preach to you the benefits of the four artifact system.   



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Honestly, the power level of basic mortals in my game is very different from the base WotC numbers anyway, so I can't go with your assumptions even on that general principle since you based your numbers (at least for a starting point) on theirs.  My starting point is higher-power, so I have to inflate the deities to match, at the very least- if that makes sense.




Not sure I follow you. Do you mean the power of basic NPCs or the power of basic PCs. The latter I can understand, the former is a tad confusing.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Another part of this ties in with the fact that my world has a large number of "fantasy science-fiction" elements in it, meaning high-tech weapons like energy guns and starships in addition to the traditional sword & sorcery fare.




So does ours, I'll have the big Gods vs. Sci-fi/Modern settings section in Chronicle.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Assumptions for deity power are just... different, in a setting like that.




Not sure I agree. I'd have powered armor and high tech stuff go up against the gods as they are. Which tells me you are using some homebrew guns/armour which provide a MAJOR power boost to PCs. Nothing wrong with that of course, especially if you are playing in a high physical factor campaign/world.

I partially explain the difference at the bottom of this page:

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff3.htm



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> The explanation of where the power comes from is different, and the effects of using the power will be as well to keep internal consistency. The differences from the IH are small ones, to be sure, but they will require tweaks to make it all fit.




Well I am just glad I was able to give you something to get your teeth into despite the differences.   



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Exactly. I wanted a larger power gap between my deities and mortals, and since my mortals are more powerful as a general base I have to greatly inflate the power of deities to get that. That said, I do still have plenty of interaction between deities and mortals in my game; the players are just made aware very early on that deities are *not* to be trifled with.




Watch that inflation. 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> No, that's fine; I'm certainly not saying your flavor is bad or wrong!  I just have a game setting that's very different from traditional sword & sorcery fantasy, so I have to explain things differently.








			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> The particular example with Sidereals involves the in-game explanation for what the beings actually are- my players *have* already encountered a Sidereal being, or at least the Divine-level "avatar" of one, and were given an explanation of what the "Overgods" actually are as beings. What I said was that deities have their power because their minds are housed, not in physical bodies like mortals, but in constructs of pure energy. They can form physical bodies to make interaction with the universe more convenient, but they don't need to to survive. In that light, the Overgods are another level entirely- they exist not as energy, but as patterns in the quantum probability waves that give rise to physical reality. They can form "avatars" of energy which are effectively deities in their own right, but they don't need to any more than deities need to form physical bodies. And of course those deity-avatars can themselves form avatars in physical form if the being wants to.




Cool.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> In light of that, your rules (which seem based on the assumption that Sidereals and other immortal beings are, in some qualitative sense, more similar to mortals than my flavor allows) may need some tweaking, particularly in the gaps between "levels" of the various entities.




Well I generally prefer more tangible manifestations.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Thus, I will tweak them once I have more complete rules to examine and can see the complete spread- where it matches, and where it doesn't. Obviously, your explanations about Sidereals do match mine in one very interesting and important point- both of us have them as essentially "written" into the underlying fabric of the universe (or multiverse) itself. We just seem to differ on exactly how their power arises and a little on what they can do with it.




Well I am sure many people will have their own campaigns and deities long before my books came along and they'll want to pick and choose which stuff suits their campaign best.



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> Glad to hear it! This really is a monumental effort, and it's already surpassed Primal Order (the previous "definitive" work on game rules for deities in my collection) in utility and idea generation, in my eyes.




I wouldn't make that claim just yet...of course after the books finished... 



			
				paradox42 said:
			
		

> I plan to get every IH book you put out, however long they take, and my players already know my game will be using the IH rules (or anyway as much of them as I can). In fact they already came up against a few critters from the Bestiary Volume I, but that's neither here nor there.




I appreciate the support dude!


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hello again mate! 



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Cosmic or Divine?
> 
> Blight Lord (Ex):The deity possesses the integrated class features of a Blighter, in addition to the deity's preexisting integrated class features, if any. The deity's effective level in this second integrated class is equal to one half their hit dice.




Divine. Although I'd probably need to read up on the Blighter again.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Lich Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a lich, even if this would ordinarily be impossible. The deity is not truly undead, thus retaining their constitution score and constitution modifier, though they are so very like the dead as to be indistinguishable via casual observation.




Actually I was meant to have a divine ability called Necrosoul in the list which let you become either a Lich (Though you need the Undeath divine ability as a prereq.)

I was then going to continue the Necro chain of abilities into the cosmic and transcendental.

Although I am not sure how much these template smight depreciate at those levels.

I mean technically Vampire ECL roughly parallels it with a Cosmic power...but it seems really weak for such a power.

Demilich ECL roughly parallels Transcendental. Akalich possibly working as a second transcendental with the Demilich ability as a prereq.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Paradoxic Prestigiousness (Ex): The deity can possess two classes (core and/or prestige) that are traditionally one another's polar opposites, provided the deity meets the remaining prerequisites for each. This ability allows the deity to ignore Ex-Class Member restrictions. Thus the deity could, for example, be both a druid and a blighter simultaneously without losing access to either of the opposed classes' features. Furthermore, neither class is adversely affected by the other. Thus the deity, for example, does not lose any of the features of either class, even if this would ordinarily be the case.




Divine.



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Plant Lord (Ex):The deity possesses all the beneficial abilities and characteristics of a plant, even if this would ordinarily be impossible.




I think I already have this somewhere.   

Maybe its under Earthly Ancestry...*goes to look*



			
				dante58701 said:
			
		

> Im currently using this ability for a low ranking deity who serves one of tiamat's red dragon consorts.
> 
> Disciple of the Red Wyrm (Ex): The deity possesses all the abilities of a red dragon, of an age category that inherently possesses a number of hit dice equal to the deity's outsider hit dice, rounded down to the nearest age category. Additionally, their natural form becomes so like that of a red dragon of that age category, that they become virtually indistinguishable from a red dragon of that age category, even though they retain all the abilities of their previous form in addition to those granted by this divine ability. Furthermore since they are not quite natural, they do not acquire draconic ability through aging. Instead they must advance these abilities and their form via accrual of experience. Thus the deity's approximated level of power is entirely reliant upon it's advancement as an outsider. Finally, it is important to note that, while the deity is in fact a dragon, their type remains outsider. Deities without outsider hit dice cannot acquire this divine ability, nor may any who possess the cold subtype.




I must admit I am impressed, that is a very cool cosmic ability. 

I was thinking about a Divine Ability that gave you the Half-Dragon template. Maybe that would be a prereq. for your cosmic power.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Servitor of Wrath said:
			
		

> Got it!
> 
> I have a question about the Tensegrity feat: How does it affect your ability to lift and wield orichalcum weapons?




It lets you use them at 5 points of strength lower than you normally would be able to.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Eversius said:
			
		

> Great stuff, as always UK.




Thanks dude! 



			
				Eversius said:
			
		

> Even the mere descriptions have me fascinated!




Thats probably because the descriptions don't make any sense yet.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Hey UK,




Hey Rhuarc mate! 



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> really nice update, love the new abilties




Early days yet. I am not very impressed with the state of them.   



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Just one question, maybe I missed that part but what kind of save DC is commonly used for the [Effect] abilities? The usual 10 + 1/2 level/HD + divine bonus + attribut modifier?




Yes thats right. The 'Effect' abilities still need a lot of work and they are missing a ton of examples.



			
				Rhuarc said:
			
		

> Thanks again




No thanks necessary mate - its my job.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Hiya mate! 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Some tweaks I think would be good...




I expect to make a LOT of tweaks.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Achilles Heel: Awesome ability!  Wouldn't it be easier though, just to grant DR 2xHD/Nat 20?  And then specify that all criticals against someone with this ability do maximum damage automatically, and that even those who'd be normally immune to criticals are vulnerable to them with this ability?  Add in a special note that knowing where the spot is can also bypass the DR as the ability currently states, and this is perfect.  I'm -really- impressed with this one.




Noted.

I'm not happy with the name myself. 



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Adjuration: Total allies yes, but what about any given single ally?  You might want to set a limit there... perhaps at 1/2 HD?  Or 3/4?  Otherwise, once per day, a mere intermediate deity might summon an Old One...




Yes I need to balance this one...thats partially why its unfinished.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> Perfect Mind: Might want to add that this ability STACKS with those 15 wishes, because otherwise it'd be a waste, I think.  Probably be cheaper just to make the wishes,




Perhaps. But I sort of saw this as a quick fix for Disciples and Prophets more than for Immortals.



			
				Fieari said:
			
		

> esspecially with the "Make a wish" epic feat you offer...




That would take you 15 years though.


----------



## Upper_Krust

Also wanted to say thanks to Anabstercorian for the extensive response on the feats *goes off to take notes*, and thanks to everyone else who has also given me feedback on these.

Much appreciated guys.

Believe it or not I actually forgot to add some new ones - I have this cool ninja based feat thats a bit like sideways hiding (thats not the name of it) whereby you could have multiple 'ninjas' hiding in the one shape (even another person) then all jump out...okay, well I thought it was cool at least.


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## Kavon

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I have this cool ninja based feat thats a bit like sideways hiding (thats not the name of it) whereby you could have multiple 'ninjas' hiding in the one shape (even another person) then all jump out...okay, well I thought it was cool at least.



Haha, that one rocks! XD

*imagines one ninja shapeshifting into a mouse, with all his mates hiding in/on him - sneak sneak to the target and all jump out and flip out*


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## Upper_Krust

*Attention All!*

Hey all! 

Okay I started a new thread here:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3022380#post3022380

Moderators feel free to lock this one down.


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## GQuail

<Sniff>

Goodbye, ol' pal: I'll miss you.  Even if you did half in size because of the forum crash.  ;-)


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## Beefermatic

Arf! Arf! Arf!


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