# Design and Development: Cosmology



## Mouseferatu (Sep 26, 2007)

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a

This is simply going to further inflame the ongoing conflict between those who want them to keep the Great Wheel and those who don't. 

Me? I like the sound of this. Feels much more mythic and properly spiritual to me.


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## spunky_mutters (Sep 26, 2007)

It looks like the Ethereal is gone. I don't mind most of the changes, as they will still provide rules for elementals, elemental environments, etc., but I'll miss having rules for the Ethereal plane (or course that just makes it a more mysterious place, I guess).


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## Perun (Sep 26, 2007)

Me like! 

I especially like that there are no demiplanes in the Astral, they're called dominions now. I just love that!

And all the while I'm thinking how it wouldn't be particularly difficult to adapt _[smallcaps]Planescape_[/smallcaps] to this whole new cosmology...

_Edit:_ I also find it interesting that the article mentions druids (could it be an indication that they are in the PH1?) and necromancers.

They also mention a few monsters: fomorians, shadar-kai, githzerai and githyanki. We also get Demogorgon, Dispater, Vecna, and Raven Queen (?).

Also, Pandemonion is listed in the Astral Sea.


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## Henry (Sep 26, 2007)

I have no opinion one way or the other. To me, it works just as well as the stuff in the Great Wheel, and gives as many opportunities for adventure. The best news about it, I suppose, is that you can set all your previous planar stuff anywhere in there with very little editing.


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## spunky_mutters (Sep 26, 2007)

Maybe I'm missing it, but it doesn't really explain where the Elemental Chaos is in relation to the other planes. 

If it's not in the astral, and it's not noted as being co-existent with the Prime (or the natural world), then where is it?


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## Aloïsius (Sep 26, 2007)

Where was this thread ! I checked twice ! 

....


I guess my slow typing is to blame. 

I will quote what I said elsewhere :


> Magic - Speculation about the new planes
> I would like this thread NOT to be about doomsaying and greatwheel VS 4e cosmology
> But rather about what we can guess from those tidbits.
> 
> Especialy about magic. They have found the way to fix etherealness : in the feywild, the dungeon does not exist...




Something else :



> *Only the mightiest *of heroes dare venture into the dominions of the gods themselves



I wonder if "plane shift" won't be divided between various spells.... So that you can access feywild sooner than the astral sea.


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## Reaper Steve (Sep 26, 2007)

Any kind soul care do a cut-and-paste for those of us blocked from the wizards' site at work? Please? Thanks!


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## Desdichado (Sep 26, 2007)

I don't like those names.  Shadowfell?  Feywild?  Blegh.

The ideas seem solid enough.  In fact, many of them are not terribly different in many respects from what I already do.  In fact, most of that was already tossed around as variants in the 3e version of _Manual of the Planes_ several years ago.


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## Charwoman Gene (Sep 26, 2007)

Wow.  Its the oWoD cosmology!

Astral Sea = High Umbra (Mage)
Feywild = Middle Umbra (Werewolf)
Shadowfell = Low Umbra (Wraith)


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## mhensley (Sep 26, 2007)

Very cool stuff.  Is that a treant?


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## Pygon (Sep 26, 2007)

I preferred the dual ghost-like existence of the Ethereal and Astral, both touching all of the Material Plane but not each other.  The Ethereal leads to elements, the Astral leads to the Outer Planes.

Now we have the Astral Sea, which leads to the realms of the gods, yet the Elemental Tempest leads to the Abyss.  So demons are more closely tied to elements instead of planes crafted by alignment?

Again, I'll just have to wait and see...  it doesn't mesh well with how I understand it.  If it doesn't at least feel like some sort of consistent pseudo-science, I probably won't embrace it too much.


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## Perun (Sep 26, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> Any kind soul care do a cut-and-paste for those of us blocked from the wizards' site at work? Please? Thanks!




Here it is:


> Secret worlds and invisible domains surround the world of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Godly dominions, elemental chaos, shadow kingdoms, and faerie realms are all part of the world. Most mortals know little of these things, but heroes are a different matter. Heroes often find that adventure calls them to distant and strange dimensions indeed.
> 
> *The Feywild*
> 
> ...


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## Scribble (Sep 26, 2007)

I like this... It's closer to what I normally use as my homebrew world's cosmos.  

I like it a lot.


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## Sammael (Sep 26, 2007)

While it may sound strange, I don't mind the article as much as I thought I would. I still have no intentions of using the new cosmology (as in, EVER), but I can now relate to its premise - to simplify the Great Wheel to make it more accessible to younger (or, rather, easily bored/impatient) players and those who dislike planar adventures and material in general. 

I have no idea why those who hated the Great Wheel would enjoy this cosmology, since what is being presented here is very nearly identical to the Great Wheel - minus the wheel-like structure. 

All Elemental Planes are merged together with the Abyss and Limbo, plus a bit of Deep Ethereal.

Shadow and borderline Ethereal are one (big deal, Shadow started out as a demiplane in the Deep Ethereal at any rate). 

Great Wheel is now broken up but the individual planes (minus the Abyss and Limbo) are present in one form or another.

In other words, nothing new. As I said before, only a simplification of what we had before, which I can hopefully blisfully ignore.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 26, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> Any kind soul care do a cut-and-paste for those of us blocked from the wizards' site at work? Please? Thanks!




Here ya is.

[sblock]Secret worlds and invisible domains surround the world of the Dungeons & Dragons game. Godly dominions, elemental chaos, shadow kingdoms, and faerie realms are all part of the world. Most mortals know little of these things, but heroes are a different matter. Heroes often find that adventure calls them to distant and strange dimensions indeed.

*The Feywild*

The closest of these alternate worlds is the Feywild, or the realm of faerie. It is an “echo” of the mortal world, a parallel dimension in which the natural features of the lands and seas are arranged in much the same configuration. If a mountain stands in a given place in the mortal world, a similar mountain stands in a corresponding place in the Feywild. However, the Feywild is not an exact reproduction. Built structures and terrains are not copied in the faerie realm, so a valley dotted with farm fields and towns in the mortal world would simply exist as untouched, unsettled woodland in the Feywild.

The Feywild’s many vistas can catch your breath with beauty, but the Feywild is far from safe. Heroes visiting to Feywild might encounter:

    * A mossy forest glade where evil druids spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees;
    * The tower of an eladrin enchanter;
    * A fomorian king’s castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark; or
    * A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.

*The Shadowfell*

Just as the Feywild is an echo of the natural world, so is the Shadowfell. However, the Shadowfell mimics the mortal world in a different manner. The Shadowfell is the land of the dead, where the spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken. Some undead creatures are born in the Shadowfell, and other undead are bound to it, but some living beings dwell in this benighted realm.

Like the Feywild, the Shadowfell also reflects the mortal world imperfectly. Towns, castles, roads, and other objects built by mortal kind exist in the Shadowfell about where they should be, but they are twisted, ruined caricatures. The shadowy echo of a thriving seaport in the mortal world might be a dilapidated, desolate port whose harbor is cluttered with the rotting hulks of shipwrecks and whose busy wharves are empty except for a few silent and furtive passersby. In the Shadowfell, heroes might venture into:

    * A necromancer’s tower;
    * The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns;
    * A ruined city swept by long-ago plague and madness; or
    * The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.

*The Elemental Chaos*

All of the cosmos is not tied to the mortal world as closely as the Feywild or Shadowfell. The natural world was created from the infinite expanse of the Elemental Chaos (or Tempest, or Maelstrom), a place where all fundamental matter and energy seethes. Floating continents of earth, rivers of fire, ice-choked oceans, and vast cyclones of churning clouds and lightning collide in the elemental plane.

Powerful beings tame vast portions of the chaos and shape it to their own desires. Here the efreeti City of Brass stands amid a desert of burning sand illuminated by searing rivers of fire falling through the sky. In other places in the Elemental Chaos, mighty mortal wizards or would-be demigods have erected secret refuges or tamed the living elements to build their domains.

Elemental creatures of all kinds live and move through the Elemental Chaos: ice archons, magma hurlers, thunderbirds, and salamanders. The most dangerous inhabitants are the demons. In the nadir of this realm lies the foul Abyss, the font of evil and corruption from which demonkind springs. The Abyss is unthinkably vast—thousands of miles in extent—and in its maw swirl hundreds of demonic domains, elemental islands, or continents sculpted to suit the tastes of one demon lord or another. Within the Elemental Chaos, heroes might explore:

    * The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage;
    * A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts;
    * The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts; or
    * A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant warlock lies hidden.

*The Astral Sea*

One final extradimensional realm touches on the mortal world: the Astral Sea. If the Elemental Chaos is the manifestation of physicality, the Astral Sea is a domain of the soul and mind. The divine realms, the dominions of the gods, drift within Astral Sea’s unlimited silver deeps. Some of these are realms of glory and splendor—the golden peak of Mount Celestia, the verdant forests of Arvandor…. Others belong to dark powers, such as the Nine Hells where Asmodeus governs his infernal kingdom. A few astral dominions lie abandoned, the ruined heavens and hells of gods and powers that have fallen.

Only the mightiest of heroes dare venture into the dominions of the gods themselves. In the Astral Sea, heroes may find:

    * The iron city of Dis, where the devil Dispater rules over a domain of misery and punishment in the second of the Nine Hells;
    * An artifact guarded by race of cursed warriors whose castle of adamantine overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron;
    * The black tower of Vecna, hidden in the depths of Pandemonium; or
    * A dragon-guarded githyanki fortress, drifting through the silver sea.

No one is knows how many astral dominions there are. Some dominions, such as the Nine Hells, are the size of worlds. Others are no larger than cities, rising like shining islets from the Astral Sea. Several dominions have been ruined or abandoned, usually because the gods who made them were destroyed or forgotten. What sorts of treasures—or perils—might slumber in such places, only learned sages could say.[/sblock]

Edit: Beaten to it! Argh!


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## Reaper Steve (Sep 26, 2007)

Perun and Mouseferatu...many thanks! Good thing I'm taking a lunch break...it may go a little longer than planned!


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## sckeener (Sep 26, 2007)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry foul....the shadowfell sounds exactly like my graveyard plane.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> I don't like those names.  Shadowfell?  Feywild?  Blegh.




I have no problem with the names, as long as this is what _mortal_ scholars and adventurers call 'em, not what the _natives_ call 'em.


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## Fobok (Sep 26, 2007)

I don't know. At first glance, there doesn't seem to be as much flavour to the new planes, except the Elemental Chaos. (Which seems pretty cool.)

The Astral Sea seems to combine all the old Outer Planes into one, too. That doesn't seem so bad, as long as there's some variety there.


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## FreeXenon (Sep 26, 2007)

I really like what they have done. This makes those places all really usable. 
Very cool! I am really looking forward to this. The names and possibilities are really inspiring. Yea 4E!


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> I don't like those names.  Shadowfell?  Feywild?  Blegh.




I agree on the names.  There seems to be a weird naming convention that WoTC is enforcing.

However, the basic concept of the Shadowfell and Feywild are practically the exact way that I run things in my campaign world.  I use Faerie and Shadow as the planar names, but otherwise, its near exact.  And I like the Astral and Elemental changes.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 26, 2007)

I really like it.

Interested to see the following:



> The Shadowfell is the land of the dead, where the spirits of the deceased linger for a time in a dark reflection of their previous lives before silently fading beyond all ken.




It sounds like Dolurrh in the Eberron setting - all dead people go there for a while, and eventually fade to 'who knows where', putting an innate limit on how far back you can resurrect people (but allowing for traditional journeys to the plane of the dead to physically rescue people).

I wonder if they are going to put something like that into the core?

Cheers


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## Sammael (Sep 26, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> I have no problem with the names, as long as this is what _mortal_ scholars and adventurers call 'em, not what the _natives_ call 'em.



I think the names are horribly hokey, particularly the Shadowfell and Feywild.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 26, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> It sounds like Dolurrh in the Eberron setting - all dead people go there for a while, and eventually fade to 'who knows where', putting an innate limit on how far back you can resurrect people (but allowing for traditional journeys to the plane of the dead to physically rescue people).




I was thinking the same thing. I'd love to see those concepts--both a time limit on _resurrection_ and physical adventures to bring back the dead--explored further.


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## Mouseferatu (Sep 26, 2007)

Sammael said:
			
		

> I think the names are horribly hokey, particularly the Shadowfell and Feywild.




Are they really any hokier than "The Happy Hunting Grounds" or "The Paraelemental Plane of Ooze"?


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 26, 2007)

The lack of ethereal makes me wonder whether they might bite the bullet and merge ethereal and incorporeal together - the subtle differences are often confusing to people and I don't know how much we would lose if they became one.


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## Perun (Sep 26, 2007)

Sammael said:
			
		

> I have no idea why those who hated the Great Wheel would enjoy this cosmology, since what is being presented here is very nearly identical to the Great Wheel - minus the wheel-like structure.




Exactly! That's why I like it 

In one of the PS products, it was said that the Outer Planes weren't really neatly arranged in the shape of the Ring. It was just the most common representation of the planar arrangement.

Now, in my campaigns I can have various factions argue over which is the true way the planes are arranged 

Incidentally, it seems the terms Outer and Inner planes are going the way of the dodo.


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## vagabundo (Sep 26, 2007)

I like this a lot. I haven't used the planes with my group at all. They just werent interested. But I'm sure I could get them into the feywild or shadowfell. Cool names too.

I also seems quiet loose, so it would be easy to customise to your own campaigns.

Another +1 to 4e...


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## Charles Dunwoody (Sep 26, 2007)

I like the new cosmology. I never liked the great wheel, from 1st edition on. It always seems the planes wanted to overshadow the PC’s world which I didn’t like.

Whenever I looked at the planes I always wondered, why is there not only a Nine Hells and an Abyss but also a Gehenna and a Pandamonium? Why is everything so spread out? And why are the Nine Hells and the Abyss in many ways the same (freaky evil outsiders trying to kill mortals)?

Just as I believe the NPCs shouldn’t overshadow the PCs (so I not a big FR DM) I also don’t want the planes to seem bigger and better than any world I create. If I have to actually study a whole book to figure out where slaads come from or what plane Pelor lives on, then that is just too much info I don’t need in my home campaign.


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## DaveMage (Sep 26, 2007)

*shakes head at the changes*

Whatever.....


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## Cadfan (Sep 26, 2007)

I like the Feywild and the Shadowfell.

I like planes which are alternate versions of the real world.  I don't like using a ton of planes in my campaign- at most, I want one other plane easily accessible to players.  It keeps things from getting overly complex.  Jaunting back and forth between reality and pseudo reality can be good for a plot.

I used to use the Plane of Shadow for this, but the Feywild and the Shadowfell seem alright too.


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## FreeXenon (Sep 26, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> The lack of ethereal makes me wonder whether they might bite the bullet and merge ethereal and incorporeal together - the subtle differences are often confusing to people and I don't know how much we would lose if they became one.




I am of the same mind, as well.

Perhaps they will merge the Plane of Shadow with the ShadowFell as well?
.. or maybe the Astral Sea just killed the Plane of Shadows and assumed the place as the only transient plane?


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## Sammael (Sep 26, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Are they really any hokier than "The Happy Hunting Grounds" or "The Paraelemental Plane of Ooze"?



Actually, IMO, yes. Not that I ever used "the Happy Hunting Grounds" (having been introduced to D&D during the glorious golden age of Planescape).

BTW, one plane notably missing from the new cosmology is the Outlands (which, arguably, had the least planar flavor of its own, and was nearly completely dominated by the Gate Towns and the Spire).


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## Novander (Sep 26, 2007)

So it sounds like the Keep on the Shadowfell introductory adventure will introduce the new cosmology as well as the new rules.

Personally, I quite like it. I'm not too keen on the name "Feywild", but I think "Shadowfell" is a nice fit.


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## Cadfan (Sep 26, 2007)

Also, I suspect that the Feywild and the Shadowfell will impact heavily the design of the Druid and the Dread Necromancer.


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## Imaro (Sep 26, 2007)

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Wow.  Its the oWoD cosmology!
> 
> Astral Sea = High Umbra (Mage)
> Feywild = Middle Umbra (Werewolf)
> Shadowfell = Low Umbra (Wraith)




Better yet...again from Exalted

Shadowfell=Shadowlands
Elemental Chaos=Wyld lands
FeyWild=Borders of Creation
Astral Sea=Yu-shan( actually this one is a stretch, but everything else is spot on)

This with the demon and devil tid bits has got me kinda dissapointed.  I've played this game before.


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## FabioMilitoPagliara (Sep 26, 2007)

spunky_mutters said:
			
		

> It looks like the Ethereal is gone. I don't mind most of the changes, as they will still provide rules for elementals, elemental environments, etc., but I'll miss having rules for the Ethereal plane (or course that just makes it a more mysterious place, I guess).



astral, feywild and shadowfell killed ehtereal and took its stuff


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 26, 2007)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> I wonder if "plane shift" won't be divided between various spells.... So that you can access feywild sooner than the astral sea.



That would be nice.

I like this, although as has been noted, this sort of cosmology is not exactly unknown in other games. (Heck, this new setup all but screams out for using Beyond Countless Doorways as the planar corebook for 4E.)

I see a lot to like here, including evil dryads and fey-flavored formorians.

Oh, and these planes are all other dimensions. You don't normally walk there. Not-coexistent means that there's no spot corresponding to Lake Geneva in the Elemental Tempest, not that it's not located just as far away/close as Feywild (where there is a corresponding lake where Lake Geneva exists).


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## fuindordm (Sep 26, 2007)

Well, I like the names.

The elemental chaos is a very, very old idea. How many ancient gods and goddesses built the world out of chaos, or slew a beast representing chaos and constructed the world from its body? Tons. Someone's been reading.

The Feywild seems to be an amalgam of animistic spirit realms, faerie, and (OK, that last is pure extrapolation on my part)--the source of life force, or perhaps just the first pit stop of life force on its way to the material.

The Shadowfell makes the afterlife interesting. Bob is dead, but wait a minute--there's something waiting for him on the other side. Run, Bob, run! What's that--your buddy didn't have raise dead prepared? Well, keep running. 

It's like we've got two spirit realms, one positively "charged" and one negatively charged.

Cool stuff again.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 26, 2007)

We also now know a lot more about Keep on the Shadowfell, just because we know what the Shadowfell _is_. A cleric of Orcus attempting to reopen a portal to the land of the dead is a suitably mythic introductory module, IMO. Looking forward to April all the more now!

(And yes, I hope that Shadowfell kills the Plane of Shadow and takes its stuff. The Plane of Shadow was the only transitive plane with any pizazz, IMO, other than the Plane of Mirrors, which I will houserule back into existence -- or buy a PDF of, if someone manages to stretch that out to a full, even if small, product.)


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## Lackhand (Sep 26, 2007)

Too many "backdrop" planes for me, and another vote for silly names...
... but otherwise, I love the concepts. 

Mostly because I already use them (I call them Faerie and the Plane of Shadow right now, of course!).

I'll adapt the ones in the books back to match what I already use. No harm, no foul.

Another vote for "hoping they give the axe to the ethereal (as opposed to incorporeal)" here, too.

I like the new elemental-creatures' names.

I don't like the limiting the size of the abyss, if I understand this right. What I'd prefer is if that was the limit of the edge-to-edge span of the abyss, but like a hole in the world, it forms a sort of funnel cone of infinite depth, thus significantly more adventure-worthy surface area.

Then we can both be right, the article and I; the elemental planes are the accretion disk, while the Abyss is the manifest will of entropy.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 26, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> The lack of ethereal makes me wonder whether they might bite the bullet and merge ethereal and incorporeal together - the subtle differences are often confusing to people and I don't know how much we would lose if they became one.




In my campaign world, I killed the Ethereal Plane and the Plane of Shadow took its stuff.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 26, 2007)

Lackhand said:
			
		

> Then we can both be right, the article and I; the elemental planes are the accretion disk, while the Abyss is the manifest will of entropy.



I bet this turns out to be dead-on.


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## Branduil (Sep 26, 2007)

I love it.



			
				Sammael said:
			
		

> I have no idea why those who hated the Great Wheel would enjoy this cosmology, since what is being presented here is very nearly identical to the Great Wheel - *minus the wheel-like structure. *




That's why. 

Also, the Feywild and Shadowfell give me images of Link to the Past. Which is awesome.


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## Wormwood (Sep 26, 2007)

Another step in the right direction as far as this DM is concerned.

I never liked the idea of Olympus and Asgard and Nirvana just kinda crammed together like Pez. 

I never liked the ethereal plane, which 3e turned into a rules morass which devoured time and spawned abuse.

I never thought the Astral Planes were very interesting, steeped as they were in wishy washy Spiritualist nonsense.

So yeah. Thumbs up.


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## bastrak (Sep 26, 2007)

Can't say the change for change's sake appeals to me at all. I'll be sticking with the Great Wheel, not that I'm planning on buying 4e anyway.


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## frankthedm (Sep 26, 2007)

So no one knows the details of the afterlife? Cool.

Also the shadowfell sounds like the 'spirit world' in the Legacy of Kain: _Soul Reaver_ games, another plus.


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## GVDammerung (Sep 26, 2007)

Sigh.  

"You don't need to purchase 4e.  It's not the game you are looking for."  I don't need to purchase 4e.  It's not the game I'm looking for.  I'll move along.

Well, its not THAT bad . . . YET.  I can say I have ZERO interest in the 4e fluff that is being crammed into the CORE RULES for NO apparent reason.  This leaves 4e's only selling point to me as the purely mechanical RAW or crunch.  Given that the 4e mechanics think I need to have PC and monsters "roles" mandated for me, I'm not hopeful.  I'm not moving along but more because I'm transfixed by a NASCAR-like "watch it for the spectacular crashes" than anything else at this point.  I could be completely wrong, but I'm seeing 4e crashing and burning sales wise when compared to 3x.  Wotc?  Hasbro would like to have a word with you.

I want my 5e!!!

Oh yeah.  The new cosmology.  "Terrance, this is stupid stuff."  See A.E. Housman.  Or, if your prefer -  "Confessions of a Crap Artist" by Philip K. Dick.  Indeed, this cosmology is just such.


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## Wormwood (Sep 26, 2007)

Plus it seems easier to drop a deity's domain into the vast Astral Sea than it was to shoehorn it into the fully codified and stagnant Great Wheel (which always read like a shopping mall's "You Are Here" map anyway). 

No more "Wait...why _does _Sune live on Mount Olympus?"


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## Wolfwood2 (Sep 26, 2007)

I'd say that "Ethereal Plane" + "Plane of Shadows" = Shadowfell.

I'd picture Shadowfell as the place that ghosts fade into and out of when they manifest and de-manifest.  It also works okay for Blink and spells like that.  What do you really need the Ethereal for if you have Shadowfell?

Puts some interesting limitations on incorporeal creatures, too.  They can walk through walls... if that wall has fallen into ruin in its reflection in Shadowfell.  No more of this 'pop into and out of objects' whack-a-mole.  Now when a spectre passes through something, it's because in their reality, that thing does not exist.

Notice that the Githzerai live in the Elemental Maelstrom, while the Githyanki dwell in the Astral Sea.

I'm interested in the notion that some realms are harder to get to than others.  The Feywild looks like its meant for realtively low level adventurers, so that you can go planar right off the bat.

Anybody grin at, "The Abyss is unthinkably vast—thousands of miles in extent—".  Quite a change from the infinite planes of the Great Wheel, eh?

Also, "A few astral dominions lie abandoned, the ruined heavens and hells of gods and powers that have fallen."

Dead and forgotten gods, sweet.  Nothing is eternal and everything eventually fades out.


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## Aloïsius (Sep 26, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> We also now know a lot more about Keep on the Shadowfell, just because we know what the Shadowfell _is_. A cleric of Orcus attempting to reopen a portal to the land of the dead is a suitably mythic introductory module, IMO.




Look the 4e MM cover : orcus and shadow.... I wonder if Orcus has not relocated himself in the shadowfell.


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## Drammattex (Sep 26, 2007)

THE 4e COSMOLOGY KILLED MY HOMEBREW AND TOOK ITS STUFF!!!

(except for the Elemental Chaos; I don't have that) ;-)


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## Wormwood (Sep 26, 2007)

Oh and please tell me this is the last we have to hear about the Positive and Negative Energy Planes.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 26, 2007)

You know, it occurs to me that Ghostwalk would work _sensationally_ with this new set-up, with Manifest simply being a place where the real world and the Shadowfell overlap, and the dead can wander back into the world of the living.

Obviously the monsters, spells and PrCs would need to be converted -- who knows, maybe we'll see some of them show up in 4E anyway -- but this would be a heck of a fun setting to play in, I think.


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## med stud (Sep 26, 2007)

Imaro said:
			
		

> Better yet...again from Exalted
> 
> Shadowfell=Shadowlands
> Elemental Chaos=Wyld lands
> ...




Both of the White Wolf- games where predated by Kult that had Metropolis, Inferno and Gaea as overlays on our world. It's not a new or revolutionary idea to have planes like that but it's a good idea and I like it!

The Great Wheel was convoluted and it took time to learn and if you didn't like it, odds were you didn't bother to learn it. This cosmology is simple enough to learn quickly and the feywild and shadowfell seem to be useful in many kinds of adventures; for example, getting into a building by entering Feywild, move to where the building is in the prime material and then move back from Feywild.


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## Markn (Sep 26, 2007)

Me likey.  I think the Shadowfell, Feywild and Elemental Chaos are huge upgrades (design wise) from the current cosmology.  The first two seem to be more focused and more tightly integrated into D&D than what previous realms of a similar nature were.  The Elemental Chaos is heads and shoulders above the Elemental Planes from before.  I have never used them before, mainly because - How could you?  Now, however, the mixture of elemental traits makes much more sense and I can already think of 101 adventures on the plane. 

I am very much looking forward to more of the cosmology!

Edit - Oh and I really, really hope that the Shadar-kai make it into the MM as they are so cool!


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## Obergnom (Sep 26, 2007)

I love it! While I myself now the Great Wheel in and out, I never liked using it much, because I never had any players who really knew it. 
This cosmology is much simpler, I think more players will know how it works (Or it would take me about 10min or one good handout to make them know it) while not leaving any planar adventure ideas of mine behind... actually, the parallel universes of fey/death are ideal for short planar trips...


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## Sir Brennen (Sep 26, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Lackhand said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, the origin of the Abyss already has a known legend, from the Demons and Devils article:







> Legend says that the Chained God, Tharizdun, found a seed of evil in the young cosmos, and during the gods’ war with the primordials, he threw that seed into the Elemental Tempest. There, the evil seed despoiled all that came into contact with it (some say it tainted Tharizdun himself) and created the Abyss as it burned a hole in the very structure of the plane.


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## Masquerade (Sep 26, 2007)

Yes!

I'm even more enthusiastic than I was after reading the recent demon/devil article. This new approach to the cosmology (note that the term "plane/planar" was only used once in the article--let's hope they keep that up!) is simpler and would seem to lend itself well to individual adventures, as opposed to the current planes, which work best when used in an explicitly planar campaign (IME). I like the idea that making the jump over to the feywild or shadowfell is something that humanoids of all levels might do from time to time.

I may actually use the assumed cosmology for once...

edit:


			
				Obergnom said:
			
		

> actually, the parallel universes of fey/death are ideal for short planar trips...



Quoted because it's what I was trying to say.


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## MoogleEmpMog (Sep 26, 2007)

With the Feywild being 'the closest of the outer planes,' I'm hoping we'll see more fey-oriented material, especially about the wild and dangerous fey rather than the shiny-happy-mischievous kind.

Overall, I like the changes, and am much more likely to use the new version than I was the great wheel.  For one, the planes aren't divided up by alignment (ugh!); for another, we don't have the weird shoehorning of various celestial and infernal realms into a superficially unified cosmology.

I hope ethereal and incorporeal are folded into a single status, ideally one not tied to the planes at all.  I've never thought of ghosts as being 'out of phase' except in D&D.

The only thing I don't much like is the Elemental Chaos supplanting the Elemental Planes, but it's purely due to fond memories of the latter, mostly from Might and Magic games.


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## Doug McCrae (Sep 26, 2007)

Feywild/Shadowfell closely resemble Birthright's Shadow World.


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## helium3 (Sep 26, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
> 
> This is simply going to further inflame the ongoing conflict between those who want them to keep the Great Wheel and those who don't.
> 
> Me? I like the sound of this. Feels much more mythic and properly spiritual to me.




It's actually pretty similar to my own home-brew cosmology, which makes me happy that it'll be an easier sell when I start running a game again in the near future.

It makes me sad though that my players will think I just cribbed WOTC's notes.


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## bording (Sep 26, 2007)

I have to say that I really like what has been described in this article. We have a much more manageable number of planes (quick, who can rattle off the the exact names of every single plane in the Great Wheel? I know I can't) but they are varied and open-ended enough to still provide a lot of different locales for plane-hopping goodness.

I really like the idea of the Shadowfell being the land of the dead. It reminds me of Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea series. Being able to travel there and bring back someone? Sounds good to me!

The openness of the Astral Sea is also really appealing. Instead of the codified Outer Planes, we have the ability to toss in any number of dominions out there in the sea. Got an idea for  a strange new plane? Toss it in the Astral Sea and there you go!


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## Glyfair (Sep 26, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Feywild/Shadowfell closely resemble Birthright's Shadow World.



I was thinking that the Shadowfell wasn't too far from Birthright's Shadow World.  If halflings come from there, then it will be a lead pipe cinch.


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## Aage (Sep 26, 2007)

> The Feywild’s many vistas can catch your breath with beauty, but the Feywild is far from safe. Heroes visiting to Feywild might encounter:
> A mossy forest glade where evil *druids *  spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees;
> The tower of an eladrin enchanter;
> A fomorian king’s castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark; or
> A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.




I totally I'm reading to much into the emphasised part... But my hope is somewhat restored 

Edit: Oh, and by the way, I'm loving the article


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## BryonD (Sep 26, 2007)

I like it.

nice and open-ended


They appear to have applied the points of light idea to the planes as well as to the main world.


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## Desdichado (Sep 26, 2007)

Sammael said:
			
		

> While it may sound strange, I don't mind the article as much as I thought I would. I still have no intentions of using the new cosmology (as in, EVER), but I can now relate to its premise - to simplify the Great Wheel to make it more accessible to younger (or, rather, easily bored/impatient) players and those who dislike planar adventures and material in general.



  I'd like to think that disliking the Great Wheel does not automatically make one younger or more easily bored or impatient.

One (of many, IMO) complaints about the Great Wheel is that it doesn't easily allow for other planes to fit in, other than the clumsy patch of "just make it a demiplane!"  This set-up allows me to use whatever plane I want.  If I want a more _Beyond Countless Doorways_ approach (which frankly, I would), where I can insert any plane I can come up with, then this specifically faciliates it.


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## Lackhand (Sep 26, 2007)

> Well, the origin of the Abyss already has a known legend, from the Demons and Devils article:
> 
> 
> > Legend says that the Chained God, Tharizdun, found a seed of evil in the young cosmos, and during the gods’ war with the primordials, he threw that seed into the Elemental Tempest. There, the evil seed despoiled all that came into contact with it (some say it tainted Tharizdun himself) and created the Abyss as it burned a hole in the very structure of the plane.




I'm using the wrong words, but I'm thinking more "vertically" or "geometrically" than that.

But the word "burned" there is kind of helpful.


It occurs to me that, maelstrom or no, unless they give me a few really good ideas, I'll be mostly using Fire, intermixed with Air and Earth. Very little water in that maelstrom. That seems sad.

I hope they have some good ideas. It's mostly due to interesting encounters; anything I might want to use Water for, I can generally get away with an actual underwater adventure for. It's usually much better, in fact, because then there can be Prime pirates and sunken treasure and friendly sea-life and stuff; it doesn't make as much sense on the elemental planes.

Yet?


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## Desdichado (Sep 26, 2007)

Lackhand said:
			
		

> Then we can both be right, the article and I; the elemental planes are the accretion disk, while the Abyss is the manifest will of entropy.



The elemental planes are the accretion disk, and the Abyss is the supermassive black hole at the center.


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## BlackMoria (Sep 26, 2007)

Is the Plane of Shadow still around or did the Shadowfell kill it and take it's stuff?


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## Baduin (Sep 26, 2007)

Why people are so fixated on White Wolf? Myths, fairly tales, fantasy literature and most of all previous D&D books are sources for all those planes. The "Copyrightable names" are a rather strange convention in the style of Games Workshop, but the real names are pretty obvious. I think however that Gary Gygax had rather greater talent with words...

Faerie is a very old idea, rather popular in hundreds of fairy tales. See eg Tolkien's "Smith of Wooton Major" and "On Fairy Stories".

The land of the dead is also rather popular - a good example would be LeGuin's Earthsea. Here it seems to be combined with the  Ethereal Plane - very sensibly. Here is at least an explanation for all those ethereal ghosts. The plane of Shadow is also added to the mix. 

Astral Plane is a rather D&D idea - based on the spiritualists and Swedenborg, of course.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritualism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh00toc.html

Dividing the realms of the souls into the Astral Plane and the Outer Planes made rather little sense. Combining them is a great improvement.

As for the Elemental Chaos - as many mentioned, it is taken verbatim from Milton.

Some interesting quotes from Swedenborg:

http://swedenborg.newearth.org/hh/hh61.html

"In the spiritual world, that is, in the world where spirits and angels are, the same objects appear as in the natural world, that is, where men are. In external appearance there is no difference. In that world plains and mountains, hills and rocks, and valleys between them are seen; also waters, and many other things that are seen on earth. And yet all these things are from a spiritual origin, and all are therefore seen by the eyes of spirits and angels, and not by the eyes of men, because men are in the natural world. ...
...
The heavens are in the higher parts of the spiritual world, the world of spirits in the lower parts, and under both are the hells. The heavens are visible to spirits in the world of spirits only when their interior sight is opened; although they sometimes see them as mists or as bright clouds. .... But the hells are not seen because they are closed up. Only the entrances, which are called gates, are seen when they are opened to let in other like spirits. All the gates to the hells open from the world of spirits, and none of them from heaven....
...
The hells are everywhere, both under the mountains, hills, and rocks, and under the plains and valleys. The openings or gates to the hells that are under the mountains, hills, and rocks, appear to the sight like holes and clefts in the rocks, some extended and wide, and some straitened and narrow, and many of them rugged. They all, when looked into, appear dark and dusky; but the infernal spirits that are in them are in such a luminosity as arises from burning coals. Their eyes are adapted to the reception of that light, ...the light of heaven is thick darkness to them, and therefore when they go out of their dens they see nothing.
....
 The openings or gates to the hells that are beneath the plains and valleys present to the sight different appearances. Some resemble those that are beneath the mountains, hills and rocks; some resemble dens and caverns, some great chasms and whirlpools; some resemble bogs, and some standing water. 

... Some of the hells appeared to the view like caverns and dens in rocks extending inward and then downward into an abyss, either obliquely or vertically. Some of the hells appeared to the view like the dens and caves of wild beasts in forests; some like the hollow caverns and passages that are seen in mines, with caverns extending towards the lower regions. Most of the hells are threefold, the upper one appearing within to be in dense darkness, ... while the lower ones appear fiery, ... Some hells present an appearance like the ruins of houses and cities after conflagrations, in which infernal spirits dwell and hide themselves. In the milder hells there is an appearance of rude huts, in some cases contiguous in the form of a city with lanes and streets, and within the houses are infernal spirits engaged in unceasing quarrels, enmities, fightings, and brutalities; while in the streets and lanes robberies and depredations are committed. In some of the hells there are nothing but brothels, disgusting to the sight and filled with every kind of filth and excrement. Again, there are dark forests, in which infernal spirits roam like wild beasts and where, too, there are underground dens into which those flee who are pursued by others. There are also deserts, where all is barren and sandy, ...
In regard to the number of the hells, there are as many of them as there are angelic societies in the heavens, since there is for every heavenly society a corresponding infernal society as its opposite. ... the heavenly societies are numberless, 
...
the hells are innumerable, near to and remote from one another in accordance with the differences of evils generically, specifically, and particularly. There are likewise hells beneath hells. Some communicate with others by passages, and more by exhalations, and this in exact accordance with the affinities of one kind or one species of evil with others. "


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## Reaper Steve (Sep 26, 2007)

Wow. Not that it shocks anyone, but I totally dig this!

Nitpicks: the Abyss being 'thousands of miles arcoss.' The Earth's radius at the Equator is 6,378 km, so it's diameter is 12,756 km, or 7,296 miles. My point is...that makes the Abyss seem incredibly small to me...it could barely swallow the Earth. I would expect the Abyss to be tens or even hundreds of thousands of miles across, if it could even be measured.

So, planes are no longer infinite? Does the new cosmology assume that the material plane is only a single planet? I'm not advocating Spelljammer or anything, but where does the stars, sun, moon, an everything in the sky fit in? I think I'm having a hard time making a written case, but I just get the impression that they are scaling things too small...this entire cosmology (material, shadowfell, feywild, astral, and elemental) could all fit in our solar system.

But man, I love the flavor!


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## Aloïsius (Sep 26, 2007)

So, we have : 


feywild = ethereal + positive energy plane + standard faerie land. Low level adventuring is possible here. You can probably reach it with druidic or bardic spells. 


shadowfell = ethereal + negative energy plane + plane of shadow. Mid level adventuring IMHO. You need a cleric to protect you from negative energy (if the cleric still has dominion upon this)


elemental chaos = elemental planes + limbo + abyss. This is about the primordial forces. High level play. The warlock probably find the source of his power here.


astral  sea = astral plane. I don't really see the difference here. This is for epic level. 
Of course, it's certainly possible to use astral sea for high level play, or shadowfel....


Now, the spells : 
* etherealness. It probably does not exist anymore.
* shadow walk : yup ! an access to the plane of the dead. So, you can save your dead buddy... Allow you to enter buildings, because they are in ruins...
* fey walk : I guess there is something like that. Allow you to stride great distance in the wild.
* teleportation : probably use the astral sea ?
* plane shift : not all plane shift are equal. I think cleric will have an easier access to the astral, while wizards and warlock will be able to enter the primordial chaos. Necromancers will be shadow walker, and druids will access the Fey wild.

Now, the classes :
* bard, druids : obviously tied to the feywild. I hope druid kills the bard, take a lot of his stuff.
* shadowdancer : good shadow dancer will be a rarity...
* warlock : a connection with the elemental chaos or with the abyss ?
* sorcerer : no planar connection. Dragons, I guess.


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## Korgoth (Sep 26, 2007)

I enjoyed this article.  It was written with the right tone, answered all the most pertinent questions (rather than the "gnomic dispenser of acontextual tidbits" style) and had good content.

I was never a big fan of the "Great Wheel".  I like the "Faerie" and "Land o' the Dead" stuff (minus the "Hokeynaem" convention of hokey names).

Now if we could jettison "Iron Sigil" Kung Fu Wizards into the Elemental whatsitsname, we'd be all good.


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## helium3 (Sep 26, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> It also works okay for Blink and spells like that.




I suspect blink won't be in 4E. It's pretty clear they're slicing and dicing the game to get rid of complicated rule-sets, particularly those exist only in the description of a spell. If you look at blink you can see how complicated it is compared to other spells. To me, that indicates it's likely on the chopping block.


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## Belorin (Sep 26, 2007)

Belorin said:
			
		

> So, let's see if we can extrapolate what's coming.
> It has already been said that the way alignments are used is changing, the Nine Hells are an astral dominion among other deific abodes in the Astral Sea meaning that they may no longer be connected as they were on the Great Wheel.
> The Abyss, which gapes like a festering wound in the landscape of the Elemental Tempest, sounds like the Elemental Planes won't have defined borders, but a continuous landscape comprised of all 4 elements. (possibly containing the Para & Quasi-elemental palnes also)
> Of course this is all supposition on my part.



From the Demons & Devils Thread


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## Drammattex (Sep 26, 2007)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Now if we could jettison "Iron Sigil" Kung Fu Wizards into the Elemental whatsitsname, we'd be all good.




Seconded! 
Thus far the only 4e thing that has made me cringe.


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## BryonD (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> I'd like to think that disliking the Great Wheel does not automatically make one younger or more easily bored or impatient.
> 
> One (of many, IMO) complaints about the Great Wheel is that it doesn't easily allow for other planes to fit in, other than the clumsy patch of "just make it a demiplane!"  This set-up allows me to use whatever plane I want.  If I want a more _Beyond Countless Doorways_ approach (which frankly, I would), where I can insert any plane I can come up with, then this specifically faciliates it.



Really
If anything I felt a problem with the Great Wheel was the hand holding...

And BCD was an immediate thought that sprang to my mind when reading this article.


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## Chris_Nightwing (Sep 26, 2007)

I think I like this.

The Feywild reminds me of certain parts of Neverwinter Nights (which were really fun and thematically well flavoured).

The Shadowfell reminds me of Zelda's alternate co-existing world, where things are mostly the same, but darker. The Earthsea plane of the dead seems similar, which is cool.

My mind is already racing with ideas for the elemental plane. The accretion disk/black hole idea especially - imagine the four elements making the compass points, so you can still have your fiery depths and vast oceans of water, but then in between we get back the paraelements! Deserts between Earth and Fire, storm-wracked seas between air and water, etc. Give the whole thing a bit of a twist around the Abyss (give the black hole some angular momentum!) and you also get fire mixing with water for a mess of steam, earth with air for dust storms, and of course the messy mixes of three or all four. Love it.

Best of all, all these planes sound like they'll solve the problems of how every great wheel plane was aligned, what time did, what gravity did (ugh) and so on.


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## JamesM (Sep 26, 2007)

Doug McCrae said:
			
		

> Feywild/Shadowfell closely resemble Birthright's Shadow World.



Little surprise there given the prominent role Rich Baker, creator of _Birthright_, is playing in design of 4E.


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## HeinorNY (Sep 26, 2007)

For the WOW players, the Feywild=Emerald Dream, don't you think?
I like it!
Fluff buying me even more than crunch so far!


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## Anthraxus (Sep 26, 2007)

Nope, don't care for the new cosmology, or the new Demons/Devils. 

I do like a lot of the rules changes I've seen, but little of the fluff changes. I guess we'll wait and see.  :\


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## RigaMortus2 (Sep 26, 2007)

Not sure I like the new cosmology. Seems like they are making too many drastic changes to the D&D realm. At this point, what makes fourth edition "D&D" and not just an alternate system/setting such as Arcana Evolved?  Just because they are keeping some of the names such as Mordenkainen (sp?) doesn't mean it's still D&D...


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## Intrope (Sep 26, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> Puts some interesting limitations on incorporeal creatures, too.  They can walk through walls... if that wall has fallen into ruin in its reflection in Shadowfell.  No more of this 'pop into and out of objects' whack-a-mole.  Now when a spectre passes through something, it's because in their reality, that thing does not exist.



That is an incredibly cool idea! Likewise, since things in the Shadowfell are twisted as well, the ghosts won't necessarily align perfectly with the living world (going up a stair in Shadowfell may result in the ghost floating above the stairs in the living world, for instance). 

And I'm liking this more and more. More planar visits for lower-level parties; more locations in the Elemental Realms that aren't mono-elemental blobs, potentially many more outer planes to visit (some of which can be hazardous without being ridiculously excessive), etc.


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## WayneLigon (Sep 26, 2007)

Sounds very cool. I love the names and the little hints they drop, about 'briarwitches' and the Raven Queen, and such. And the Tower of Vecna.


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## Nine Hands (Sep 26, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> I'd say that "Ethereal Plane" + "Plane of Shadows" = Shadowfell.
> 
> I'd picture Shadowfell as the place that ghosts fade into and out of when they manifest and de-manifest.  It also works okay for Blink and spells like that.  What do you really need the Ethereal for if you have Shadowfell?
> 
> ...




This last paragraph made me think of a ghost in the Shadowfell having to damage a wall to get through it in the "real" world


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## Irda Ranger (Sep 26, 2007)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Plus it seems easier to drop a deity's domain into the vast Astral Sea than it was to shoehorn it into the fully codified and stagnant Great Wheel (which always read like a shopping mall's "You Are Here" map anyway).



Heh. That's a good way of putting it.  I never liked the Great Wheel either.  (and for both poetic and aesthetic game-design reasons, not because I'm bored, immature, impatient or some other pejorative).

Overall, good design diary, though I don't think I'll be limiting *my * Abyss to a few mere "thousands of miles" across ... I'm thinking Jupiter is a good size ...

But what are Githzerai doing in the Maelstrom?  I know the Githyanki have that whole "Astral traveller" thing locked down, but why were the Githzerai removed from Pandemonium?  Flavor seems wrong now ...


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## delericho (Sep 26, 2007)

It's a workable cosmology. There's nothing really original there... but then, there doesn't really need to be.

The only things I'm not happy about are that the Nine Hells are said to be "as big as {a} world", and that the Abyss is said to be "thousands of miles across". In the latter case, in particular, given the newly-brutish Demons and a tightly capped, no-longer-infinite number of them, I fail to see just why the Abyss has been allowed to fester. Given the threat it poses to all of existence, surely an alliance of forces would have seen to cleaning it up by now?


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## Beckett (Sep 26, 2007)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Plus it seems easier to drop a deity's domain into the vast Astral Sea than it was to shoehorn it into the fully codified and stagnant Great Wheel (which always read like a shopping mall's "You Are Here" map anyway).
> 
> No more "Wait...why _does _Sune live on Mount Olympus?"




Yes. The Great Wheel is gone, but there's room to fit just about any part of the old planes into this.

I'm digging it.


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## Lackhand (Sep 26, 2007)

> But what are Githzerai doing in the Maelstrom? I know the Githyanki have that whole "Astral traveller" thing locked down, but why were the Githzerai removed from Pandemonium? Flavor seems wrong now ...




Weren't they in Limbo, which is essentially what the Elemental Maelstrom is?


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## The Little Raven (Sep 26, 2007)

Korgoth said:
			
		

> Now if we could jettison "Iron Sigil" Kung Fu Wizards into the Elemental whatsitsname, we'd be all good.




I wasn't aware that Iron or Sigils were a distinctly Kung Fu convention.

Silly me for thinking the West has had it's own long tradition of secret societies.


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## Howndawg (Sep 26, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
> 
> This is simply going to further inflame the ongoing conflict between those who want them to keep the Great Wheel and those who don't.
> 
> Me? I like the sound of this. Feels much more mythic and properly spiritual to me.





Sounds a little White Wolfy to me.  But that's not necessarily a bad thing.  I've never been a big fan of the Great Wheel.

Howndawg


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## mhacdebhandia (Sep 26, 2007)

MoogleEmpMog said:
			
		

> With the Feywild being 'the closest of the outer planes,' I'm hoping we'll see more fey-oriented material, especially about the wild and dangerous fey rather than the shiny-happy-mischievous kind.



Druids spilling blood over the roots of thirsting trees suggests to me that your hopes are justified. 

I'm quite happy with this new cosmology. I have always liked planes which are alternate versions of the material world - and now we have two, with excellent distinctions between them. The Astral Sea is infinitely expandable - you could place anything you wanted in it. The Elemental Chaos sounds very useful in games.


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## Aloïsius (Sep 26, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> the Abyss is said to be "thousands of miles across".




Well. Thousands of miles across. But how many deep ? Plus, if this is a vortex, then you can destroy as much demon as you can, new elemental beeing will be swallowed and corrupted anyway to replace them.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 26, 2007)

Belorin said:
			
		

> From the Demons & Devils Thread



Hooray?


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## Ragnar_Deerslayer (Sep 26, 2007)

I've been VERY positive on 4E so far, but this is the first 4E preview that hasn't sounded good to me.

Feywild:

Why do we need a place that's "just like the real world, only here, there's less civilization and an eladrin's tower?"  I thought the "points of light" concept meant there was less civilization already and plenty of unmapped places to put things like an eladrin's tower.  Evil druids, mazes of thorns – why do we need a separate plane for these things?

Shadowfell:

Basically, a necropolis done as a plane.  Meh.  "Points of light" again – I was thinking Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser for the Prime Material gameworld, with plenty of "ruined cities swept by long ago plague and madness."  What else is there?  Oh, no!  A "forest of black thorns!"  How the freak will we know whether we're in the Shadowfell or the Feywild?!!  At least we know we're not on the Prime Material Plane.  No thorns there, nosiree.  (Seriously, didn't anyone else think the prominent mention of "thorns" in two of the planes was a little much?)

Elemental Chaos:

"Unthinkably vast – thousands of miles" – huh?  London to Jerusalem is ~3500 miles by road.  That's not unthinkably vast.  That's well within the experience of medieval Crusaders.  And they basically just took the elemental planes and mashed them together.  Will it work better?  I'm not sure.  I liked the idea of an entire Plane of Fire, with infinite distance of flame, and no escape but magic.

Astral Sea:

Sounds like the Great Wheel, just less organized.  Still, this one held my interest the most.  It offers more room than the Great Wheel did, with more opportunities to explore.  If you're ditching alignment as a cosmological force, this was the right thing to do.

I liked the complexity of the Great Wheel.  The intricacies of the Paraelemental and Quasielemental Planes were logical but required thinking about – the Prime Material Plane was only a very small part of a very large Omniverse.  Once players stepped out of the PMP and started exploring the planes, it was a whole new ballgame.  The 4E cosmology sounds like "just like our world, but different."  The GW cosmology was alien and foreign but ordered and structured – it wasn't necessarily intuitive, but it did make sense.

In short, there's little here in the Feywild or Shadowfell that I wouldn't have put on the Prime Material Plane of a game world in a "points of light" setting.  For the rest of it, I'll take a "wait and see" approach.


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## Loincloth of Armour (Sep 26, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> ...I fail to see just why the Abyss has been allowed to fester. Given the threat it poses to all of existence, surely an alliance of forces would have seen to cleaning it up by now?




Maybe they already tried, and the Abyss spat out a horde of howling demons that tore the alliance down into the Abyssal maw, and birthed a new legion of fearsome beasts born from the twisted souls of the alliance.

Maybe the Powers have learned that the Abyss is a problem, but left to itself, it's a problem you can (sort of) live with.  Life is miserable with the Abyss around, but liveable.  

Rile it up, and the Abyss becomes *your* worst nightmare.


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## Zaukrie (Sep 26, 2007)

I found the concept of size to be amazingly bad in this design, as others have posted. Thousands of miles? All the demons in the multiverse, and whatever else lives there? A few dozen epic adventurers and their angel allies could wipe out that small amount of evil. 

I like the inclusion of faerie, it is one of the communities' biggest wants in terms of things not really done in D&D.

I like the collapse of the shadowfell into one realm (even if it is too small).

I'm not keen on the concept of the demons and devils, the size of their realms, and all that other stuff I've already complained about.

This cosmology seems to assume there is only one inhabited planet, doesn't it? That is the only way to explain the tinyness (sp?) of the outer planes.


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## Erik Mona (Sep 26, 2007)

I love the Great Wheel, of course, but I'd rather it not be in the hands of designers who clearly DON'T care for it.

So with that in mind, I think there's a lot to like in this new cosmology. It's fairly simple, and if the game no longer has alignment I think some of that simplicity is quite welcome.

There seem to be very few "planar" stories I could play in 1e, 2e, or 3e that I couldn't find a way to shoehorn into this new cosmology. Even some of the real world mythological planes like Ysgard and Nirvana and whatnot could pretty easily fit in as domains floating in the Astral, so I'm not really sure what we're losing.

Chris Sims said in another thread that Graz'zt is still around and he's still a demon. Malcanthet is an open question, and I've got to wonder if there's room for Sigil somewhere in this new set-up, but I'm a lot less interested in the spatial relationship of one plane to another than I am in whether or not I can recreate the classic D&D planar atmosphere with the new design.

And judging by what I've seen so far, I think I can, and that's quite refreshing.

The devil will be in the details, of course, but from what I've seen so far I imagine you could fit most of the Abyss as written (by me, ahem!) in Hordes of the Abyss into this new set-up.

And I think that's pretty cool.

--Erik


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## Gundark (Sep 26, 2007)

meh. I'm neutral. The great wheel wasn't something that I was attacted to.


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## schroederlance (Sep 26, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I was thinking that the Shadowfell wasn't too far from Birthright's Shadow World.  If halflings come from there, then it will be a lead pipe cinch.





It makes sense considering Rich Baker wrote this article. He came up with Birthright originally didn't he?

Edit: Oops. Didn't read far enough into the thread. I see this was already stated above.


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## Masquerade (Sep 26, 2007)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> * bard, druids : obviously tied to the feywild. I hope druid kills the bard, take a lot of his stuff.



You want the druid to have _more_ stuff?!?


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## The Little Raven (Sep 26, 2007)

Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> How the freak will we know whether we're in the Shadowfell or the Feywild?!!




Your DM will tell you.

Or he won't, if you're not supposed to know.

Or maybe you can use your character's planar knowledge to determine whether you're in the land of the dead or the land of the fey.

If a forest of black thorns is enough to confuse you, then traits like rivers of fire and barren, desolate rock wastes and such must have really made all of the evil realms hard to distinguish from eachother.


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## TwinBahamut (Sep 26, 2007)

I really like all of this, mostly because the Feywild and Shadowfell sound way too much like my own homebrew. Two planes which overlap with the physical world, a Spirit World and a Shadow World, filled with spirits and undead respectively. The Oriental Adventures Spirit World mixed with the shadow plane, the classic mystic land of the Fey, and a bit of Legend of Zelda Sacred/Dark Realm. I like it a lot, and love all the possibilities in it that can't be found in the Great Wheel setup.

Imagine wandering into some small hamlet, built on the ruins of some ancient city, and the wandering into the Shadowfell, and finding that ancient city still stands there, filled with whole generations of its now dead citizens, and ruled by a council of its undead kings...

Or you can retread the waters from old celtic myth, and accidentally wander into the realm of a otherworldly faerie king because you fail to follow a common superstition.

Also, I like the Elemental Tempest and Astral Sea. Far more flexible and interesting than Inner and Outer Planes. I am also glad they are minimzing the term "plane".


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## cignus_pfaccari (Sep 26, 2007)

I have to say, I don't understand the attachment people have to the Great Wheel.

It's okay, but I can't say it ever did anything for me.

I do think it's telling that neither of the supported settings at this time use the Great Wheel in their cosmology.

And if they're changing how important alignment is and how it works, the Great Wheel suddenly becomes even less useful, because, at heart, all it is is alignment.

Brad


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## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 26, 2007)

Hobo said:
			
		

> The elemental planes are the accretion disk, and the Abyss is the supermassive black hole at the center.



It would suit things well if the elemental planes are slowly but inevitably getting drawn down into the Abyss.  Tharizdun pulled the plug at the bottom of the universe.


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## Wormwood (Sep 26, 2007)

Dr. Awkward said:
			
		

> It would suit things well if the elemental planes are slowly but inevitably getting drawn down into the Abyss.  Tharizdun pulled the plug at the bottom of the universe.




Seven months before 4e, and I'm *stealing the hell out of that idea. 
*


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## Shortman McLeod (Sep 26, 2007)

sckeener said:
			
		

> I don't know whether to laugh or cry foul....the shadowfell sounds exactly like my graveyard plane.




I think it sounds exactly like Silent Hill.  Which is a good thing.


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## Grog (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm mostly neutral about this change, but one thing I really like is that this will allow DMs to create their own planes and easily insert them into the existing cosmology. You couldn't do that with the Great Wheel (unless you were making an Abyssal layer). That's a definite improvement, IMO.


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## Shortman McLeod (Sep 26, 2007)

Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> "Unthinkably vast – thousands of miles" – huh?  London to Jerusalem is ~3500 miles by road.  That's not unthinkably vast.




Reminds me of Dr. Evil: "You will pay me one million dollars!!!!"


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## Aloïsius (Sep 26, 2007)

Masquerade said:
			
		

> You want the druid to have _more_ stuff?!?




yup. remove most "kaboom" spells from it list. Add more nature/illusion/charm spells. 

Stuff like scry, fog, alter self, charm person or animal, entangle, many subtile illusions (so that you get lost in the forest when you try to raid the druidic grove) sounds very druidic.

Flame strike, on the other hand... 

(real world) Druids were masters of lore : they should have the bardic knowledge, or something like that. 
Just reduce the power of wildshape (cf PHB2), remover the spontaneous summon nature ally (meh !) and you have a balanced class.


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## Desdichado (Sep 26, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> It's a workable cosmology. There's nothing really original there... but then, there doesn't really need to be.



Does it need to be original?  Or just good?  I mean, not much is in D&D, and when it is original, it's often too weird to be interesting.


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## Daniel D. Fox (Sep 26, 2007)

Like TwinBahaumt, this sounds a lot like my homebrewed cosmology. 

Very, very, VERY cool stuff. Shadowfell sounds an awful lot like Ravenloft.


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## Deverash (Sep 26, 2007)

Erik Mona said:
			
		

> <snip>
> 
> ... and I've got to wonder if there's room for Sigil somewhere in this new set-up, but I'm a lot less interested in the spatial relationship of one plane to another than I am in whether or not I can recreate the classic D&D planar atmosphere with the new design.
> 
> --Erik




Sigil would work quite well as one of the realms floating in the Astral Sea.  Which is one of the things that I like about it, it's quite expandable without having to wonder which of the 19 outer planes my idea has to fit into.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 26, 2007)

Deverash said:
			
		

> Sigil would work quite well as one of the realms floating in the Astral Sea.  Which is one of the things that I like about it, it's quite expandable without having to wonder which of the 19 outer planes my idea has to fit into.




It also sounds like we'll see glimpses of all the old planes scattered in the Astral Sea, the Shadowfell, the Feywild, or the Elemental Tempest.


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## Scribble (Sep 26, 2007)

Now things like Faerie Rings have more of a place in D&D... 

Even if the model is points of light... It's just one more reason the villagers don't travel very far outside of their chosen location...

"Don't you be goin off into the woods Joseph... Ye'll find yerself in a faerie ring and wake up in the fey realms... Wiked Goblin King will make you a slave he will..."


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## dmccoy1693 (Sep 26, 2007)

Imaro said:
			
		

> Better yet...again from Exalted
> 
> Shadowfell=Shadowlands
> Elemental Chaos=Wyld lands
> ...




You're not kidding.  The whole description of the Points of Light setting is basicly how WW describes the most of the Exalted world.  In Exalted 5 miles away from some village, the people have no clue what is or isn't there.  Something happens and the average commoner is despritely hoping for some hero type to come along and help them.  At first I thought the PoL was great, but combined with Demons/Devils/Cosmology, this is getting to be alot to similar.


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## Malhost Zormaeril (Sep 26, 2007)

Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> Feywild:
> 
> Why do we need a place that's "just like the real world, only here, there's less civilization and an eladrin's tower?"  I thought the "points of light" concept meant there was less civilization already and plenty of unmapped places to put things like an eladrin's tower.  Evil druids, mazes of thorns – why do we need a separate plane for these things?




I think you're not grasping the idea.  This is done to emulate the idea of Fairy Realm from old fairy tales.  The deep, dark forest is home to wolves, goblins and worse, but on a full moon when the borders between the worlds wear thinner, powerful and capricious spirits can come and play havoc with hapless travellers.  In those nights, prudent folk lock themselves at home, spreading sheep's blood on their doorways to keep the evil spirits at bay.  Of course, certain more powerful personages can ally themselves with the barons of the other world and set up an outpost there, keeping themselves hidden from all who don't know where to look.

In other words, it's perfectly possible to have a dangerous mundane world _and_ a dangerous fey realm side-by-side.



			
				Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> Shadowfell:
> 
> Basically, a necropolis done as a plane.  Meh.  "Points of light" again – I was thinking Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser for the Prime Material gameworld, with plenty of "ruined cities swept by long ago plague and madness."  What else is there?  Oh, no!  A "forest of black thorns!"  How the freak will we know whether we're in the Shadowfell or the Feywild?!!  At least we know we're not on the Prime Material Plane.  No thorns there, nosiree.  (Seriously, didn't anyone else think the prominent mention of "thorns" in two of the planes was a little much?)




While I agree the Fey realm and the realm of the Dead may be doing some sort of conceptual overlap, I can't really picture the dead mingling with dryads and Redcaps; regardless, if one of the two had to go, I'd drop the Fey realm.

That being said, I imagine the two will have a very different feel.  When one is in the fey realm, everything feels more vibrant, more alive, more _untamed_.  The danger here is from Nature's retribution for the folly of Men in trying to control her.  In the Lands of the Dead, however, sounds and colours should be muted, and an oppressive air hangs everywhere.  Cities lie in broken ruins, but the ruins aren't overgrown; rather, they're tortured hulls sticking from the earth like black, broken teeth.  Amid those ruins, the Dead lie, envious of the living who come to mock them with their colour and heat.  And if the living should intrude for too long, they will themselves be marked by the dark energies of the place, until such a time comes that they are claimed by the land as its own...



			
				Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> Elemental Chaos:
> 
> "Unthinkably vast – thousands of miles" – huh?  London to Jerusalem is ~3500 miles by road.  That's not unthinkably vast.  That's well within the experience of medieval Crusaders.  And they basically just took the elemental planes and mashed them together.  Will it work better?  I'm not sure.  I liked the idea of an entire Plane of Fire, with infinite distance of flame, and no escape but magic.




Except the current Elemental Planes aren't infinite, per se, since one may walk (or swim, or fly, or whatever) and eventually reach the edge of the plane, where it blends as a paraelement into the next element.  Like somebody said in a previous thread:  the "bottomless ocean" of the Plane of Water actually has a bottom:  it's called the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze -- and further "beneath" it, the Elemental Plane of Earth.

Furthermore, taking current movement rules, humans usually walk three miles every hour.  The London to Jerusalem trek would take, then, 1166 hours of walking, which can be done in 145 days.  Now, in the Abyss there's not much likelihood of finding a road stretching from one side to the other, so those 145 days may perhaps double into 290 days -- the better part of a year.  Now, this may not seem so bad, but consider the utterly inimical terrain that is the Abyss:  harrassed every day by demons, never knowing where you can find a place to rest or whether the water can be drunk or if those demonic spawn's flesh is really edible or not...



			
				Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> Astral Sea:
> 
> Sounds like the Great Wheel, just less organized.  Still, this one held my interest the most.  It offers more room than the Great Wheel did, with more opportunities to explore.  If you're ditching alignment as a cosmological force, this was the right thing to do.
> 
> ...




You're certainly welcome to dismiss these all out of hand; it's an implied cosmology for a reason.  Still, it would be good for you to at least look at it with an open mind if for nothing else than to mine for ideas...


----------



## The Little Raven (Sep 26, 2007)

dmccoy1693 said:
			
		

> You're not kidding.  The whole description of the Points of Light setting is basicly how WW describes the most of the Exalted world.  In Exalted 5 miles away from some village, the people have no clue what is or isn't there.  Something happens and the average commoner is despritely hoping for some hero type to come along and help them.  At first I thought the PoL was great, but combined with Demons/Devils/Cosmology, this is getting to be alot to similar.




Yeah, because it's not as if Exalted ever drew on mythological sources to design it's world, and D&D sure couldn't be drawing on those same sources. No, it has to be because they are copying Exalted.


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## dmccoy1693 (Sep 26, 2007)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Yeah, because it's not as if Exalted ever drew on mythological sources to design it's world, and D&D sure couldn't be drawing on those same sources. No, it has to be because they are copying Exalted.




I'm not saying they're _copying_ Exalted.  I'm just saying that this is sounding very similar.


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## Just Another User (Sep 26, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> Wow. Not that it shocks anyone, but I totally dig this!
> 
> Nitpicks: the Abyss being 'thousands of miles arcoss.' The Earth's radius at the Equator is 6,378 km, so it's diameter is 12,756 km, or 7,296 miles. My point is...that makes the Abyss seem incredibly small to me...it could barely swallow the Earth. I would expect the Abyss to be tens or even hundreds of thousands of miles across, if it could even be measured.
> 
> ...





There are no stars in 4D!,You see,  you can't have adventures on them so designer decided they are useless and they are just tiny speck of light in the sky, the same for planets. Also, the sun is just a ball of fire in the sky some kilometer of radius, maybe less After all why make it bigger? It is just a waste of space for a place where you can't go anyway. And last, Earth can be so big but the game world is much smaller, what is the point to have places in it that are too far away to be able to have adventures in it? My guess is that all the game world will be big as twice the north america, larger of that would be overkill.

Kidding, of course (a little bitter maybe, but kidding  )

"Unthinkably vast -thousands of miles" Hey, wait! I just thought it?!


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 26, 2007)

Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> "Unthinkably vast – thousands of miles" – huh?  London to Jerusalem is ~3500 miles by road.




... by road?

Aren't there, like, oceans getting in the way and stuff?

Oh, sure, there's the Chunnel *now*, but there certainly wasn't a hundred years ago.

Besides, thousands of miles across, and millions of miles deep would certainly qualify as "unthinkably vast" in my book.


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## Keldryn (Sep 26, 2007)

I'm really liking the sounds of this so far.  The old "Great Wheel" always seemed ultra dogmatic and rather bland to me.  Planescape was certainly not bland, but that was the tone of the setting and had nothing to do with the structure of the outer planes.  And it always seemed really dumb to me how the elven gods, Sune of the Forgotten Realms, and Chaotic Good gods from dozens of pantheons all hung out with the Greek gods.



			
				Sammael said:
			
		

> While it may sound strange, I don't mind the article as much as I thought I would. I still have no intentions of using the new cosmology (as in, EVER), but I can now relate to its premise - to simplify the Great Wheel to make it more accessible to younger (or, rather, easily bored/impatient) players and those who dislike planar adventures and material in general.




That came off as supremely arrogant and unnecessarily insulting.  Thanks. 



			
				bording said:
			
		

> The openness of the Astral Sea is also really appealing. Instead of the codified Outer Planes, we have the ability to toss in any number of dominions out there in the sea. Got an idea for  a strange new plane? Toss it in the Astral Sea and there you go!




This was pretty much how the Astral Plane was set up in the D&D Companion Set (1985ish); there were no rigid alignment-based planes branching off from the Astral, only whatever planes the DM felt like putting into the game.



			
				Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I found the concept of size to be amazingly bad in this design, as others have posted. Thousands of miles? All the demons in the multiverse, and whatever else lives there? A few dozen epic adventurers and their angel allies could wipe out that small amount of evil.
> 
> This cosmology seems to assume there is only one inhabited planet, doesn't it? That is the only way to explain the tinyness (sp?) of the outer planes.




I like this approach to cosmology; it's basically the same approach that Eberron, the 3e Forgotten Realms, and The Book of the Righteous all take.  The cosmology isn't designed to be all things to all possible gaming worlds -- its customized to each campaign setting to reflect its mythology.  The old Great Wheel cosmology was comprised of a mish-mash of thematically unrelated elements, many of which did not belong in a large number of campaign settings.


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## Aloïsius (Sep 26, 2007)

Mourn said:
			
		

> No, it has to be because they are copying Exalted.



I disagree : they are bot copying Ars Magica. 

More seriously, I think Ars Magica "regio" will work perfectly with the feywild or the shadowfell. In fact, IMC, I have a "mythic" alternate plane (dragons, giants and fey) and a "undead" alternate plane (and a few other, as well...). And you can travel between them through regio.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 26, 2007)

I wonder whether they will have allowances for a 'far realm' sort of place in this cosmology?

It doesn't sound as if it would be a particularly natural fit for a domain in the astral sea (because that would kinda make it a 'near realm', no?)

But then where *would* it go? Maybe at the far edges of the astral sea?

I think the far realm is the only one of the standard cosmological features that I'd be loathe to give up...


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## Grog (Sep 26, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I found the concept of size to be amazingly bad in this design, as others have posted. Thousands of miles? All the demons in the multiverse, and whatever else lives there? A few dozen epic adventurers and their angel allies could wipe out that small amount of evil.



Keep in mind that "thousands of miles" could mean anything from 2,000 miles to 999,000 miles. And the latter would be many many many many times bigger than Earth.

And anyway, it's not as if the infinite planes of the Great Wheel didn't cause huge problems with the setting if you actually thought about them. (One example off the top of my head - each layer of the Nine Hells and the Abyss is infinite, right? Well, with a nonzero density of Pit Fiends and Balors on each of those layers in their respective home planes, that means there's an infinite number of Pit Fiends and Balors out there. So why would they bother using lower-level demons and devils in the Blood War? Why not just field vast armies purely made up of Pit Fiends and Balors?)


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 26, 2007)

Zaukrie said:
			
		

> I found the concept of size to be amazingly bad in this design, as others have posted. Thousands of miles? All the demons in the multiverse, and whatever else lives there? A few dozen epic adventurers and their angel allies could wipe out that small amount of evil.




Medieval France was hundreds of miles across, and had 40 million inhabitants, just as a point of comparison.  Make it much bigger than "thousands of miles across" and you might as well have it be "infinite."


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## Imaro (Sep 26, 2007)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Yeah, because it's not as if Exalted ever drew on mythological sources to design it's world, and D&D sure couldn't be drawing on those same sources. No, it has to be because they are copying Exalted.




Yeah, just drawing on them in a very similar way.  You can draw on inspirations that are the same, but it all boils down to how you use them, and I'm sorry but it's not just the inspirations...it's how they're being used.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 26, 2007)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Yeah, because it's not as if Exalted ever drew on mythological sources to design it's world, and D&D sure couldn't be drawing on those same sources. No, it has to be because they are copying Exalted.




There's been a lot of that.  4E is clearly going back to a more real-world mythological feeling, tapping into classic tropes.  It seems a lot of people are only familiar with those classical elements via their expression in other games or recent fantasy fiction, as opposed to the original myths and fairy tales.


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## Nahat Anoj (Sep 26, 2007)

Imaro said:
			
		

> Better yet...again from Exalted
> 
> Shadowfell=Shadowlands
> Elemental Chaos=Wyld lands
> ...



The Shadowfell is similar to the Shadowlands, but the Shadowfell seems similar to the Demiplane of Dread, the Plane of Shadow, and the Negative Material Plane.  

Both the Elemental Chaos and the Wyld seem to be areas roiling with energy, but the former seems more elemental while the latter involves things like dreams, stories, passions, rages, etc.  There is a definite emotive component to the Wyld, so much so that you can actually slay powerful beings with a story.  I doubt telling a story in the Elemental Chaos will help you very much.  The Elemental Chaos seems much more "physical", while the Wyld contains both physical and emotional components, and it much less "restrictive" about what can be there.

The Feywild seems to be essentially the Faerie realm as depicted in numerous other mythologies and legends.

So I guess I don't see how this is a rip off of Exalted.  There are some similarities, but that's because many of these cosmologies have similar sources (the Wyld is pretty much "ripped off" from the Amber series, for example).


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## Badkarmaboy (Sep 27, 2007)

I think "thousands of miles" might be figurative.

Just my guess.

Looks conceptually interesting.


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## frankthedm (Sep 27, 2007)

> Plane Sailing said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Stoat (Sep 27, 2007)

If Tharizdun pulled the plug, and the Abyss is the world draining away, where is it draining to?

The Far Realm, that's where.


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## Remathilis (Sep 27, 2007)

Color me impressed. This coming from an old PS diehard: If I want PS, I'll use the Wheel. If I want just a collection of usable planes, this works well for me and probably fits in the DMG a lot easier than the GW did...


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## Flobby (Sep 27, 2007)

I'd have to agree with that-- that they're not copying Exalted or whatever, their taking from real-world myths just like games like Exalted have. 

Someone also mentioned that they thought it was more simplistic than the Great Wheel, and this was an apeal to the younger crowd. This I don't get at all. If anything the Great Wheel seemed more simplistic. It was static and although logical I guess, it was not a very intuitive logic. This new cosmology makes so much more sense! And is so much easier to tweek. No complaignts here. Love it. 

...except for the names, but then corny names in D&D (and fantasy in general for that matter) are nothing new.


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## Imaro (Sep 27, 2007)

Jonathan Moyer said:
			
		

> Both the Elemental Chaos and the Wyld seem to be areas roiling with energy, but the former seems more elemental while the latter involves things like dreams, stories, passions, rages, etc.  There is a definite emotive component to the Wyld, so much so that you can actually slay powerful beings with a story.  I doubt telling a story in the Elemental Chaos will help you very much.  The Elemental Chaos seems much more "physical", while the Wyld contains both physical and emotional components, and it much less "restrictive" about what can be there.




Elemental creatures of all kinds live and move through the Elemental Chaos: ice archons, magma hurlers, thunderbirds, and salamanders. *The most dangerous inhabitants are the demons. In the nadir of this realm lies the foul Abyss, the font of evil and corruption from which demonkind springs*. The Abyss is unthinkably vast—thousands of miles in extent—and *in its maw swirl hundreds of demonic domains, elemental islands, or continents sculpted to suit the tastes of one demon lord or another*. Within the Elemental Chaos, heroes might explore:

Emphasis Mine.  This is what gives me the Wyld vibe.  You see the Elemental Chaos isn't just about elementals.  It's got at it's center(just like as you move further into the Wyld) a place where creatures bent on the destruction of all that exists dwell and who shape their realms in any way they want.  Thus yes you could have a realm where a demon lord weilds the power to kill with a story.


----------



## WhatGravitas (Sep 27, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> But then where *would* it go? Maybe at the far edges of the astral sea?



Sounds fitting. Or put it back, where Lovecraft put it - in the Outer Space of the Material, not accessible by planar travel, but coming to the Material to infest other planes - in fact, the Material would be the Far Realm, except for the world of the PCs, a sole bastion of sanity.

Or deep within the Abyss. The demons are, unwillingly of course, protectors of the multiverse, as the Abyss is a kind of buffer between sane reality and the Far Realm. And only the demons' lust for destruction (even within the Far Realm) keeps the Far Realm from overwhelming the planes.

Make the Material a prison plane for the Far Realm-entities (i.e. like Ptolus... or a bit like OotS).

Or just put it beyond the multiverse itself. It's the world of the gaps between the planes. You find it in the rim of a portal, in the infinitesimal gap between the Astral Sea and a Divine Dominion. Between the Material World and the Feywild. You travel through it in the split second of a _plane shift_, when you're neither here, nor there.

I think the Far Realm is a very easy plane, because its very concept is being not part of the planar multiverse.

Cheers, LT.


----------



## The Goblin King (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm OK with it.  I do like that I could drop in Ghostwalk or Beyond Countless Doorways or any homebrew plane without missing a beat.  I'll probably add in the Axis Mundi.  A place/plane where you can leave the material and walk to other planes.  It is different to different people.  Some see the world tree, some see a great mountain, some see an endless staircase.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

Maybe this is me reading into it, but these planar areas also look like they're "Levelled".

The threats in the Feywild are not as dangerous as the ones in the Shadowfell, which are not as dangerous as the ones in the Elemental Tempest, which are not as dangerous as the ones in the Astral Sea.

So levesl 1-7 might visit the Feywild, levels 8-16 the Shadowfell, 17-25 the Elemental Tempest, and 25-30 the Astral Sea. 

Because I really like the idea of a maze of thorns ruled by Briarwitch dryads guarding an evil relic. _That_ sounds sexy. 

I also have nothing wrong with the names.

*Dresden Fans*: would you say the Feywild or Shadowfell could be the Nevernever?


----------



## Glyfair (Sep 27, 2007)

Badkarmaboy said:
			
		

> I think "thousands of miles" might be figurative.




It could even be literal.  At the time of Alexander the "known world" easily fit in an area thousands of miles across, with room to spare.


----------



## Sir Brennen (Sep 27, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> It could even be literal.  At the time of Alexander the "known world" easily fit in an area thousands of miles across, with room to spare.



Yep. Especially if perceived from the point of view of a scholar within the "points of light" setting for whom even a distance of a hundred miles probably seems daunting. The Abyss may actually be light years across, but those dimensions _are_ truly inconceivable to an NPC on the material plane in a typical D&D setting, so "thousands of miles" is about as close as they can get in describing the place.


----------



## Dacileva (Sep 27, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I wonder whether they will have allowances for a 'far realm' sort of place in this cosmology?





			
				Stoat said:
			
		

> If Tharizdun pulled the plug, and the Abyss is the world draining away, where is it draining to?
> 
> The Far Realm, that's where.



This is how it feels to me, too.

Think of four "zones" of reality.  The first zone: the Prime.  The second zone: its shadows, both vibrant (Feywild) and dark (Shadowfell).  The third zone: the building blocks of the first two, both physical (Elemental Maelstrom/Abyss) and spiritual (Astral Sea).  The fourth zone: the Primal Amorphia from which formed what little structure the astral and elemental planes offer (the Far Realm).

I like pretty much everything about this cosmology.  Extensible, customizable, and not just a set of radially-sorted twisty little alignment planes, all alike.  You are likely to be eaten by a grue.


----------



## Dacileva (Sep 27, 2007)

RigaMortus2 said:
			
		

> Not sure I like the new cosmology. Seems like they are making too many drastic changes to the D&D realm. At this point, what makes fourth edition "D&D" and not just an alternate system/setting such as Arcana Evolved?  Just because they are keeping some of the names such as Mordenkainen (sp?) doesn't mean it's still D&D...



Nothing about the Great Wheel made it "D&D", either.  It was just Greyhawk's cosmology.  It only really works in a setting that places a strong emphasis on alignment as the building blocks of existence (particularly given that the sort order of the Outer Planes was absolutely alignment-based).

Similarly, the existence of proper names in 'core' were always just because Greyhawk was one of the first settings used there.  IIRC, Mordenkainen even existed as different characters in multiple settings (Greyhawk and Blackmoor, before they were merged).


----------



## Lobsopdoy (Sep 27, 2007)

> But then where *would* it go? Maybe at the far edges of the astral sea?




I would personally put it on the "bottom" of the Astral Sea. Like how we have those super-freaky creatures that can only live deep on the bottom of the ocean. So the Far Realm is like the equivalent of the Mariana Trench.

That's just me though


----------



## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

I see that they've used Elemental Chaos, Elemental Tempest, and Elemental Maelstrom interchangeably.

FWIW, I prefer 'Elemental Tempest'...and it appears the last several posters do as well.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 27, 2007)

Moniker said:
			
		

> Very, very, VERY cool stuff. Shadowfell sounds an awful lot like Ravenloft.



I don't know if I'd go quite that far, but it did occur to me that a whole lot of Ravenloft content could be dumped there. The "trapped there" aspect doesn't work without some tweaks, but the rest seems like it'd be an OK fit, especially if you go out into uncharted territory in the real world, but discover whole islands and even a continent on the Shadowfell side of things. (Ravenloft's "Core," in other words.)



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> Malcanthet is an open question



I'm guessing she becomes a powerful devil or a demon lord of lust, but not succubi.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> I've got to wonder if there's room for Sigil somewhere in this new set-up



An Astral Domain consisting of an infinite tall spire and a torus at the top would work. I think it loses something by not having a whole PLANE beneath it, but maybe it could be set high up in the Elemental Tempest instead.



			
				Erik Mona said:
			
		

> The devil will be in the details, of course, but from what I've seen so far I imagine you could fit most of the Abyss as written (by me, ahem!) in Hordes of the Abyss into this new set-up.



Heck, folks like Dagon would actually fit in even better, since his lair could actually be on the border of the Abyss and the Elemental Tempest proper. (Or, alternately, given his ancient origins, VERY NEAR the bottom of wherever the Abyss leads to.)


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 27, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I wonder whether they will have allowances for a 'far realm' sort of place in this cosmology?
> 
> It doesn't sound as if it would be a particularly natural fit for a domain in the astral sea (because that would kinda make it a 'near realm', no?)
> 
> ...



Where does it go now? It's just ... somewhere.

I like the idea of it being the "deep astral," and I LOVE the idea of it being where the Abyss ends up when even the Abyss is swallowed up.

But since no one's going to walk there under the new system (probably), and just shift there by tearing a hole through reality, it's wherever you want it to be, and uncomfortably close to the real world as far as characters are concerned.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna (Sep 27, 2007)

Rechan said:
			
		

> So levesl 1-7 might visit the Feywild, levels 8-16 the Shadowfell, 17-25 the Elemental Tempest, and 25-30 the Astral Sea.



I can't imagine they'd be levelled like that.-- that'd be awfully narrow.  And isn't Keep on the Shadowfell a low (first?) level adventure?


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> I can't imagine they'd be levelled like that.-- that'd be awfully narrow.  And isn't Keep on the Shadowfell a low (first?) level adventure?



I'm not saying that you *can't* have a 20th level adventure in the Feywild. Merely that the place is "relatively" less dangerous than walking into the Realm of the Dead.

To put it another way:

Would you go into the Underdark at 1st level? Sure, you can have goblins down there, or some minor monster. But in general, the Underdark is full of Drow/Illithids/Other Monsters mid-higher level characters usually fight.

Each adventure site seems progressively more dangerous. Look:

A fomorian king’s castle in the dim, splendid caverns of the faerie Underdark.
The sinister castle of a shadar-kai lord, surrounded by a forest of black thorns.
A vast polar sea lit only by the cold glitter of icebergs and flickering auroras, in which the frozen stronghold of a frost giant warlock lies hidden.
A dragon-guarded githyanki fortress, drifting through the silver sea.

The tower of an eladrin enchanter.
A necromancer’s tower.
The crystalline tower of a long-dead archmage.
The black tower of Vecna, hidden in the depths of Pandemonium.

A mossy forest glade where evil druids spill the blood of hapless travelers over the roots of the thirsting trees.
The mist-shrouded winter realm of Letherna, where the fearsome Raven Queen rules over a kingdom of ghosts.
The diseased Abyssal continent where Demogorgon rules amid ruined temples and bloodthirsty jungle beasts.
The iron city of Dis, where the devil Dispater rules over a domain of misery and punishment in the second of the Nine Hells

A maze of thorns in which dryad briarwitches guard an evil relic.
A ruined city swept by long-ago plague and madness
A grim fortress monastery of githzerai adepts.
An artifact guarded by race of cursed warriors whose castle of adamantine overlooks the war-torn plains of Acheron.

My overall point is this: You can have an adventure in another plane _at any level_, where as before it seemed like you had to wait until you got Planeshift, or some ability that let you avoid getting incinerated when entering the Plane of Fire, etc.


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 27, 2007)

Dacileva said:
			
		

> Nothing about the Great Wheel made it "D&D", either.



Being used for 1e, 2e and 3e did. It was as tied to the setting as spells that boned you based on your alignment.


----------



## jasin (Sep 27, 2007)

Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> "Unthinkably vast – thousands of miles" – huh?  London to Jerusalem is ~3500 miles by road.  That's not unthinkably vast.  That's well within the experience of medieval Crusaders.



A pit as wide as a London-Jerusalem road and who knows how deep?

I don't think it's inappropriate to call that unthinkably vast.


----------



## Klaus (Sep 27, 2007)

THIS article is good. Much better than the Demons & Devils one, and in fact should've been posted before that one.

Instead of the Ethereal connecting the Material Plane with the Inner Planes and the Astral connecting it to the Outer Planes, we have two parallel dimensions that reflect the Prime in an imperfect way, one "Limbo + Inner Planes + Abyss" and the Astral Plane with the old Outer Planes as pocket domains.

Note that none of the old Outer Planes (not even the Abyss) are endless as they used to be. The largest ones are planet-sized.

As for names, I'll be changing Shadowfell to Shadowlands and Feywild with Faerie.


----------



## Branduil (Sep 27, 2007)

Keep in mind that thousands of miles probably would be unthinkably vast for characters in the points of light world.

I think living in the age of the internet, airplanes, and spaceships has given us a skewed view of distance.


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 27, 2007)

So lets see...

*Heroic Domains of Ysgard:* Unknown
*Ever-Changing Chaos of Limbo: *Merged with Elemental Vortex
*Windswept Depths of Pandemonium:* Plane in the Astral Sea
*Infinite Layers of the Abyss: *Crevasse in the center of the Elemental Vortex
*Tarterian Depths of Carceri: *Unknown
*Gray Waste of Hades:* Unknown (possibly merged with Shadowfell)
*Bleak Eternity of Gehenna:* Unknown
*Nine Hells of Baator:* Plane in the Astral Sea
*Infernal Battlefield of Acheron: *Plane in the Astral Sea
*Clockwork Nirvana of Mechanus:* Unknown
*Peaceable Kingdoms of Arcadia: *Unknown
*Seven Mounting Heavens of Celestia:* Plane in the Astral Sea
*Twin Paradises of Bytopia:* Unknown
*Blessed Fields of Elysium: *Unknown
*Wilderness of the Beastlands:* Merged with Feywild
*Olympian Glades of Arborea: *Unknown, possibly merged with Feywild (Arvandor mentioned)
*Concordant Domain of the Outlands: *Unknown, perhaps gone.
*Elemental Plane of Fire:* Merged into Elemental Vortex
*Elemental Plane of Earth: *Merged into Elemental Vortex
*Elemental Plane of Air: *Merged into Elemental Vortex
*Elemental Plane of Water:* Merged into Elemental Vortex
*Positive Energy Plane: *Unknown, possibly merged with Feywild
*Negative Energy Plane:* Merged with Shadowfell
*Astral Plane: *Renamed Astral Sea
*Ethereal Plane:*Merged with Shadowfell
*Plane of Shadow:* Merged with Shadowfell


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> Seven months before 4e, and I'm *stealing the hell out of that idea.
> *



Thank you.  I'm here every Wednesday night, and don't forget to tip your moderator.


----------



## Chocobot (Sep 27, 2007)

Lord Tirian said:
			
		

> Sounds fitting. Or put it back, where Lovecraft put it - in the Outer Space of the Material, not accessible by planar travel, but coming to the Material to infest other planes - in fact, the Material would be the Far Realm, except for the world of the PCs, a sole bastion of sanity.



I think a default setting which includes outer space is a bad idea.  That might fit some fantasy games, but definitely not all.  It's the same reason psionics aren't in the core rules, and probably never will be again: lots of people don't want sci-fi elements mixed in with their fantasy.  Also, I strongly suspect that's why the astral plane is now a sea - it was too much like outer space.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

Chocobot said:
			
		

> It's the same reason psionics aren't in the core rules, and probably never will be again: lots of people don't want sci-fi elements mixed in with their fantasy.



And a lot of psionics fans are annoyed for that very reason: They don't like sci-fi in their fantasy either.

I for one don't like the sci-fi flavor that has been put on 3e psionics.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I wonder whether they will have allowances for a 'far realm' sort of place in this cosmology?
> 
> It doesn't sound as if it would be a particularly natural fit for a domain in the astral sea (because that would kinda make it a 'near realm', no?)
> 
> ...



I always thought that part of the Far Realm's shtick is that it isn't _anywhere_ in the standard cosmology, but somehow you can go there, open portals to it, etc.  It shouldn't exist, but somehow it does.  With that assumption, I don't really see too much trouble with putting it nowhere in the new cosmology too.


----------



## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

Chocobot said:
			
		

> Also, I strongly suspect that's why the astral plane is now a sea - it was too much like outer space.




I don't see anything about 'Astral Sea' that makes it a literal 'sea,' with dominions bobbing along in it. I think the Astral Sea is still the vast openness that was the Astral Plane...but they didn't want to use the term 'plane' and most definitely wanted to avoid making it sound like outer space. I think a sea is the closest thing that someone from the material world can compare it to. I fully expect to see Illithid Nautiloids and Juggernaughts floating about.


----------



## 3catcircus (Sep 27, 2007)

*Meh...*

It just seems too contrived *just* to support the ability to conduct planar adventures at lower levels.

If it floats your boat, fine, but I prefer the 1e Manual of the Planes approach where the further you got from your home plane, the more difficult it was to survive, let alone thrive, and where planar travel was the province of the truly powerful.

I mean, they are going out of their way with the "points of light" to make you and your neighbors 10 miles away more isolated, yet they are making other planes of existence more accessible?


----------



## 3catcircus (Sep 27, 2007)

Rechan said:
			
		

> And a lot of psionics fans are annoyed for that very reason: They don't like sci-fi in their fantasy either.
> 
> I for one don't like the sci-fi flavor that has been put on 3e psionics.




I don't get that feel.  Rather, I get a fantasy feel on 3e psionics - they are nothing more than non-arcane, non-divine magic using spell points instead of slots.

I would rather use the Shadowforce Archer psionics system (and it wouldn't require more than one or two tweaks to fit it into a fantasy setting) because it *does* feel like sci-fi.  More importantly, it doesn't feel like spell point mental magic because it requires the use of feats and the spending of skill points to be able to do psionic things.  I highly recommend it.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I mean, they are going out of their way with the "points of light" to make you and your neighbors 10 miles away more isolated, yet they are making other planes of existence more accessible?



It depends on what level the means are to reach the other planes. Just because you don't die instantly upon arrival doesn't mean they're terribly accessible.


----------



## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I mean, they are going out of their way with the "points of light" to make you and your neighbors 10 miles away more isolated, yet they are making other planes of existence more accessible?




Well,
1) They are amping up PCs...they start off as heroes, rather than ratchasers. 
2) I think 'more accessible to play the game in' does not mean 'more accessible for the average inhibitant of this fictional world.' It's still reserved for the heroic...but the game is now embracing that PCs are heroes.


----------



## Wolfwood2 (Sep 27, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> An Astral Domain consisting of an infinite tall spire and a torus at the top would work. I think it loses something by not having a whole PLANE beneath it, but maybe it could be set high up in the Elemental Tempest instead.




No, no.  With Sigil the base of the spire is in the Elemental Tempest and the top of the spire is in the Astral Sea.  Somehow.

And they say that if you search long enough, you can find where it passes through the Prime.  It's the spine of the universe.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I mean, they are going out of their way with the "points of light" to make you and your neighbors 10 miles away more isolated, yet they are making other planes of existence more accessible?



The article says that only the Mightiest of heroes can get to the Astral dominions. I don't expect there to be a door to the Elemental Tempest in the alleyway over there.

But there is mythological precedence for the proximity of the Fey and Shadow realms.  

Fey were believed to live in every nook and cranny, that they ruled the woods out behind your house. I watched a documentary where several old folks in an Ireland village tried to prevent a highway from being built because a tree in the path was believed as a home of faerie, and if they cut the tree down, a lot of people would have crashes on that highway.

As for the Shadowfell, Samhein is a great example - the Celts believed that on Samhein, the realm between the Living and the Dead was at its closest, and spirits of those who died that year could "cross over". That's part of why they dressed in costumes; to confuse the spirits, make them think that those in costumes were also spirits. "Treats" were often left to appease the spirits, etc. I imagine sites closely tied to death (graveyards, battlefields, sacrificial chambers, dungeons of torture) are sites tied to the Shadowfell - they might be unhallowed, where death magic is stronger, or where it might be easier to cross over with the right magic. 

I think that part of the Points of Light is that some of the darkness is caused by the proximity of the Material's shadows. Those woods aren't dangerous, not only because there are monsters out there, but because there is a ring of stones that at High Noon or High Moon, one could accidentally walk into the realm of Fae or that the Fae could cross over, hunting for human children to swap with their own.

Something like Labyrinth, Labyrinth or Pan's Labyrinth would be easily accommodated by the Faewild.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I don't get that feel.  Rather, I get a fantasy feel on 3e psionics - they are nothing more than non-arcane, non-divine magic using spell points instead of slots.



It feels very sci-fi to me, from the names of the powers to Ectoplasm and crystals. 

And let's not get into an argument about greek and latin word roots, please.


----------



## BryonD (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I mean, they are going out of their way with the "points of light" to make you and your neighbors 10 miles away more isolated, yet they are making other planes of existence more accessible?



Either you or I have misinterpreted the points of light thing.

I didn't read it to have anything at all to do with isolation.  It isn't that you can not easily get from point of light A to point of light B.  It is just that A and B are fairly well defined, but in between is open for whatever the DM wants to be there.


----------



## BryonD (Sep 27, 2007)

Rechan said:
			
		

> It feels very sci-fi to me, from the names of the powers to Ectoplasm and crystals.



The names never come into play.  They are easy to ignore if you want.
Ectoplasm makes me think of ghosts and astral stuff.
Crystals make me think of witchcraft.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

BryonD said:
			
		

> The names never come into play.  They are easy to ignore if you want.



Until you say "I cast Deceleration." 


> Ectoplasm makes me think of ghosts and astral stuff.



Parapsychology coined the phrase.


> Crystals make me think of witchcraft.



New Age post 70's witchcraft maybe.


----------



## jeffh (Sep 27, 2007)

Rechan said:
			
		

> It feels very sci-fi to me, from the names of the powers to Ectoplasm and crystals.
> 
> And let's not get into an argument about greek and latin word roots, please.



Ectoplasm and crystals are sci-fi?


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

jeffh said:
			
		

> Ectoplasm and crystals are sci-fi?



Yes.


----------



## Atlatl Jones (Sep 27, 2007)

I love the ideas, but the names leave me cold.  Feywild? Bleagh.  I'll take Faerie please.  Shadowfell?  Bleagh.  The Shadow World, or even the Shadow are a thousand times better.  The Astral Sea is decent though, though the traditional (and mythological) Astral Plane would be just as good.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 27, 2007)

I see the Astral Sea as killing the Great Wheel and the Phlogiston and taking its things. (You got your Planescape in my Spelljammer. You got your Spelljammer in my Planescape).

Also, I could see the Far Realm keeping its name, if not getting a rename to the Far Shore (eh, maybe not).

It's an Astral "Sea", correct, so maybe it is insanity inducing just to contemplate that there is something on the _other side_ of the "sea"? Aberrations are often described as being either timelessly ancient (aboleths), or from the far depths of space and time (mind flayers). Mind flayers could get a new start as what happened when a forgotten and ancient tribe/group of humans travelled to the far side of the Astral Sea . . . and came back. *shrug*


----------



## Vradna (Sep 27, 2007)

Moniker said:
			
		

> Like TwinBahaumt, this sounds a lot like my homebrewed cosmology.
> 
> Very, very, VERY cool stuff. Shadowfell sounds an awful lot like Ravenloft.




I think you are right in this assumption.


----------



## BryonD (Sep 27, 2007)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Until you say "I cast Deceleration."



Do your wizards actually say "I cast fireball?"  shudder



> Parapsychology coined the phrase.



yeah, stuff of fantasy....   

And it must suck to get hung up on such trivial things.



> New Age post 70's witchcraft maybe.



Your point being?


Are you honestly challenging the statement that "I think" of these things in fantasy terms?  REALLY?

If you step back and look at it you will discover that all you are saying is that you yourself have a personal hang up that is creating a limitation.


----------



## BryonD (Sep 27, 2007)

jeffh said:
			
		

> Ectoplasm and crystals are sci-fi?



They can be.  They can also be fantasy.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 27, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I see the Astral Sea as killing the Great Wheel and the Phlogiston and taking its things. (You got your Planescape in my Spelljammer. You got your Spelljammer in my Planescape).
> 
> Also, I could see the Far Realm keeping its name, if not getting a rename to the Far Shore (eh, maybe not).
> 
> It's an Astral "Sea", correct, so maybe it is insanity inducing just to contemplate that there is something on the _other side_ of the "sea"? Aberrations are often described as being either timelessly ancient (aboleths), or from the far depths of space and time (mind flayers). Mind flayers could get a new start as what happened when a forgotten and ancient tribe/group of humans travelled to the far side of the Astral Sea . . . and came back. *shrug*



Other than it having a name similar to what was once the worst of the Earthsea books, before LeGuin apparently had to start paying off the mortgage on a vacation home, I really like the Far Shore.

Very evocative, and it helps cement my desire to force people to actually _sail_ through the Astral Sea. This is fantasy, damn it, not a Dr. Strange comic!


----------



## grimslade (Sep 27, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Other than it having a name similar to what was once the worst of the Earthsea books, before LeEngle apparently had to start paying off the mortgage on a vacation home, I really like the Far Shore. Very evocative, and it helps cement my desire to force people to actually _sail_ through the Astral Sea. This is fantasy, damn it, not a Dr. Strange comic!




LeGuin not LeEngle. Get that Unicorn-man out of my archipelago.


----------



## Reaper Steve (Sep 27, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Earthsea books...LeEngle




You mean LeGuin? Ursula K. Le Guin.

Loved the books when I was young. Not so much for the Sci Fi series.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Do your wizards actually say "I cast fireball?"



Um, so what do your players say then when they cast a spell? I normally don't say "So what is the DC to your mystically summoned explosion of eldrich fire, Bill?" "17. My burning maelstrom of destruction does 20 points of damage, unless they made their save for half."



> yeah, stuff of fantasy....
> 
> And it must suck to get hung up on such trivial things.



I'm sorry, but EMF readers and Cerebral Anoxia aren't "Fantasy". 

It must suck to completely disregard your source material.



> Your point being?



That it has no basis in mythology aside from some hippies in the 70s? 



> Are you honestly challenging the statement that "I think" of these things in fantasy terms?  REALLY?



Are you saying that "I can't think" of these things as wholly not fantasy? REALLY?

You can define fantasy any way you feel like it, man, and throw space-fairing vessels into your game (Spelljammer), but I don't have to agree that it's Fantasy. 



> If you step back and look at it you will discover that all you are saying is that you yourself have a personal hang up that is creating a limitation.



I could equally accuse you of just liking crystals and thus your personal tastes are clouding your opinion. I don't think that's fair however.


----------



## Pale (Sep 27, 2007)

Hmmmm... I really like this.

They have ditched the Great Wheel, but it seems that they are still managing to keep all of the elements there in some fashion.

I don't see it as being too hard to use a Great Wheel cosmology with the provided materials if someone wishes to (especially using supplemental material from Necromancer Games).


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 27, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> You mean LeGuin? Ursula K. Le Guin.
> 
> Loved the books when I was young. Not so much for the Sci Fi series.



Sorry, I have a nascent flu, not to mention I'm trying to block out remembering more of The Farthest Shore than I have to.


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

BryonD said:
			
		

> They can be.  They can also be fantasy.



They can also be biology and geology, respectively.


----------



## Scholar & Brutalman (Sep 27, 2007)

I really like this change. I don't see any mention of other prime material planes, which ishow I prefer things except in a specifically built plane-hopping cosmology - the cosmology should revolves around the PCs home plane.

I think that Wizards have a coherent process in how they're addressing older material: where they see elements as redundant, they merge or remove them if they see them as non-critical, or try to strongly differentiate them if they see as as central to the game. 

They see having an elemental plane as important, but not individual ones, so they get merged. The negative energy plane and shadows get merged, probably with ethereal as well. The planes are now fewer but much more distinct. They remove the erinyes and keep the succubus because they don't see both sides having cheesecake fiends as a central element to the game; they want to retain Demons and Devils as separate types of fiends so they strongly differentiate them. 

The early Design and Development article on Dragons said:



> They’re different from each other, across categories (the metallics aren’t like the chromatics), across colors (reds and whites don’t have all the same attacks), and across age categories (fear the ancient dragons.)




so the process is going on across the monsters as well across the planes. Probably with all game elements.


----------



## Mortellan (Sep 27, 2007)

The Wheel has fallen off the wagon!

Interesting that they have Vecna moving to Pandemonium. Calculated choice or pure random blather?


----------



## Imp (Sep 27, 2007)

Huh.  My "Feywild" and "Shadowfell" are named Seelie and Thule, and work like Eberron planes, but yeah, this is fairly close to the cosmology I brewed up too.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

I hope in 5th Edition, we can move away from names like Vecna and Thazamhanejad and suchlike.


----------



## FabioMilitoPagliara (Sep 27, 2007)

Just Another User said:
			
		

> There are no stars in 4D!,You see,  you can't have adventures on them so designer decided they are useless and they are just tiny speck of light in the sky, the same for planets. Also, the sun is just a ball of fire in the sky some kilometer of radius, maybe less After all why make it bigger? It is just a waste of space for a place where you can't go anyway. And last, Earth can be so big but the game world is much smaller, what is the point to have places in it that are too far away to be able to have adventures in it? My guess is that all the game world will be big as twice the north america, larger of that would be overkill.
> 
> Kidding, of course (a little bitter maybe, but kidding  )
> 
> "Unthinkably vast -thousands of miles" Hey, wait! I just thought it?!




where you are going to get Ioun Stones if there are no stars???? it's first adventuring place since a few billion years in the future!!!!


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Sep 27, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> It was as tied to the setting as spells that boned you based on your alignment.



Err . . . is that "Grandma friendly"?


----------



## mhacdebhandia (Sep 27, 2007)

Atlatl Jones said:
			
		

> The Astral Sea is decent though, though the traditional (and mythological) Astral Plane would be just as good.



And by "mythological" you of course mean "19th-century theosophical", yeah?


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> And by "mythological" you of course mean "19th-century theosophical", yeah?



Wait a second.  Is that sci-fi theosophical, or fantasy theosophical?


----------



## Aloïsius (Sep 27, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Medieval France was hundreds of miles across, and had 40 million inhabitants, just as a point of comparison.



20 millions. It reached 40 millions in the 20th century only, because it was the first country to experiment the demographic transition.

Note that China is hundreds of miles across, and had more than 100 millions inhabitants, however. Also, as it as already been said, it can be hundred of miles deep....

The area of a sphere is 4 pi R². The area of a cylinder is 2 pi RH.

Earth has a radius of 6000+ km (IIRC). That's more than 400 000 000 km²
If the abyss are 4000 km wide, they need just to be deeper than 18 000 km for the area to be greater than Earth's one. Now, if the abyss is vortex-shaped, it can be 12 000 km wide and 60 000 km deep. It's area would be 10 time greater than the Earth.


----------



## Gentlegamer (Sep 27, 2007)

It sounds like Manicheaism is becoming the default cosmology in D&D.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> Note that China is hundreds of miles across, and had more than 100 millions inhabitants, however.



Also, isn't a lot of China's population concentrated in about 15% of the country? I can't remember the reason why (inhospitable, the area unable to grow food, something like that).


----------



## Stalker0 (Sep 27, 2007)

Looks good to me.

I like how it explains how all of these monsters get to the prime material. With two strong parallel planes, you can imagine fey, spirits, and undead gaining access to the prime at certain times.

I also like this possiblity, Raising the dead is now just a special plane shift to the far realm, where you must bring your friend back. Higher levels might make it easier (bring you closer or something). I would love that for raising!!

The only true requirement for me is sigil. To me, sigil is iconic planescape, iconic dnd, the rest is just windowdressing. The planes can change, but sigil had better be there!!


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Sep 27, 2007)

GVDammerung said:
			
		

> Sigh.
> 
> "You don't need to purchase 4e.  It's not the game you are looking for."  I don't need to purchase 4e.  It's not the game I'm looking for.  I'll move along.
> 
> ...




Yeah, 'cuz the Seven Heavens lumped together with Nirvana, Olympus, Asgard, and the Happy Hunting Grounds was such a winning combination that made _so much_ sense. You can have your cobbled together cosmology; I think this one is an improvement.


----------



## Brennin Magalus (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I don't get that feel.  Rather, I get a fantasy feel on 3e psionics - they are nothing more than non-arcane, non-divine magic using spell points instead of slots.




In any event, I think sorcerers should kill psions and take their stuff.


----------



## Green Knight (Sep 27, 2007)

The Shadowfell reminds me of the Shadow World from Birthright.


----------



## Elphilm (Sep 27, 2007)

Ragnar_Deerslayer said:
			
		

> Elemental Chaos:
> 
> "Unthinkably vast – thousands of miles" – huh?  London to Jerusalem is ~3500 miles by road.  That's not unthinkably vast.




The impression I got from the article was that the _opening_ of the Abyss was thousands of miles in extent. Think of something like the Great Red Spot of Jupiter.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 27, 2007)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Also, isn't a lot of China's population concentrated in about 15% of the country? I can't remember the reason why (inhospitable, the area unable to grow food, something like that).



They all want to be near the movie theaters with the stadium seating, and who can blame them?


----------



## Relique du Madde (Sep 27, 2007)

Ravenloft killed Planescape and took all it's stuff then 4e killed Ravenlost and took all it's stuff!


----------



## Plane Sailing (Sep 27, 2007)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> The only true requirement for me is sigil. To me, sigil is iconic planescape, iconic dnd, the rest is just windowdressing. The planes can change, but sigil had better be there!!




Sigil? What is this sigil you speak of?


----------



## WhatGravitas (Sep 27, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Sigil? What is this sigil you speak of?



The Iron Sigil, a wizardly order! *ducks*

Cheers, LT.


----------



## Geron Raveneye (Sep 27, 2007)

To quote something TwinBahamut said on the thread about the Elemental Planes...



			
				TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> As a whole though, I am beginning to realize that this marks a radical change from earlier cosmology. In the Great Wheel, all the elements exist in a pure state held seperate, part of a greater system of pure elements, energies, and alignments, a cosmos of perfect balance and order. By nature, the Great Wheel is a system of absolute order. And irregularities or complexities arise through the actions of creatures which exist within that universe. In the new cosmolgy, the Elemental Tempest represents a bastion of celestial chaos and unpredictability, where impurity and random combination are the natural state. Order is achieved through deliberate action, and elemental order is always artificial. Can't say much about the Astral Sea, though... It is an interesting total reversal of overall assumptions.




I can't help myself, but it looks like the "points of light" assumption is brought to the planes as well...seething elemental chaos containing the Abyss at its core, and a few stable points of elemental matter inside. The Astral Sea...wouldn't surprise me by being a vast and wild plane, with the astral abodes being the most stable, and sometimes hospitable, areas. Feywyld as "natural state" copy of the Prime and Shadowfell as "here there be ghosts" parallel plane, both having a few areas that are friendly for Prime travelers. Looks like one of the ways to make high-level play similar to low-level play. Not sure what to think of it, though. Basically, the Great Wheel never figured in my campaigns, I usually use the old Mystara cosmology and Immortals...so it's not TOO big a change for me where the Outer Planes are considered. I just miss the Elemental Planes.


----------



## Tharen the Damned (Sep 27, 2007)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> Note that China is hundreds of miles across, and had more than 100 millions inhabitants, however.






			
				Rechan said:
			
		

> Also, isn't a lot of China's population concentrated in about 15% of the country? I can't remember the reason why (inhospitable, the area unable to grow food, something like that).




Yeah, but the Chinese are not Demons and as far as I know do not try to destroy the multiverse.
I do not see Bill Balor and Vinnie Vrock sharing a 2 room Flat in a 1.000 floor Spire in Abyssia. A City growing so fast that even Zeus Inc. (the multiverse' foremost lightning company) will invest a substantial amount to build a branch office there.


----------



## Lurks-no-More (Sep 27, 2007)

Imaro said:
			
		

> Better yet...again from Exalted
> 
> Shadowfell=Shadowlands



Well... no. Shadowfell = Underworld.



> Elemental Chaos=Wyld lands
> FeyWild=Borders of Creation
> Astral Sea=Yu-shan( actually this one is a stretch, but everything else is spot on)
> 
> This with the demon and devil tid bits has got me kinda dissapointed.  I've played this game before.



You know, the reason for why this reminds you of the Exalted cosmology (it's not "spot on", IMO, though) might just be that both games are tapping to similar mythological material... Feywild is the Faerie, Shadowfell is the Greek underworld, the gods are off living in their heavens. It's common ancestry and convergent evolution, I think, and it might do D&D some good.


----------



## Aloïsius (Sep 27, 2007)

Tharen the Damned said:
			
		

> I do not see Bill Balor and Vinnie Vrock sharing a 2 room Flat in a 1.000 floor Spire in Abyssia.




However, I can envision the sea of flesh : an amalgation (is that even a word ?) of billions of dretchs moaning and groaning, while beeing slowly attracted toward the center of he abyss, where they are shred to bits. The soul energy released by their death and suffering forms dark bolts thousands of miles long, that corrupt the essence of the elemental creatures they strike.


----------



## StarFyre (Sep 27, 2007)

*hmm*

some aspects of this i like..others I do not, or would need to see that planes i like, pandemonium, etc still exist in the current, 'hardcore' state as opposed to an easy area to adventure in (it's not meant to be easy!).

I will incorporate some of this into my cosmology for planescape.

(I am a strange one; I do not like the great wheel setup that much, but I love planescape...so I keep the outlands and the spire/sigil, but have changed where the planes are and how they interact).

Sanjay


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> I don't see anything about 'Astral Sea' that makes it a literal 'sea,' with dominions bobbing along in it.




I hope the Astral Sea is a "sea."  Otherwise, how can you have Githyanki pirates?


----------



## Olgar Shiverstone (Sep 27, 2007)

Intriguing changes, but I'm a bit concerned -- these drastic changes will make it much more difficult to convert prior edition adventures to run in 4E.  It's amazing how many prior elements depend on the cosmologies (whether ethereal spells, certain monsters, or entire adventures like Bastion of Broken Souls or the later parts of Paizo adventure paths).

The nice thing about the Great Wheel having been the generic cosmology for prior D&D (despite all its baggage) is that conversion from edition to edition of D&D products mostly only required mechanical changes, not reimaginings of the way the big pieces fit together which could invalidate entire adventures.  You can pick up a 1E module, tweak some mechanics, and it fits just fine in 3.5 convention, for example.

Don't get me wrong -- the simplification of cosmology looks to be more interesting -- but I think WotC just made a big break with prior D&D history that will be tough to bridge without completely throwing out a big part of either the old or the new.  I hate it when game companies create more work for me rather than less.


----------



## Geron Raveneye (Sep 27, 2007)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I hate it when game companies create more work for me rather than less.




Yeah, but I think that's the point...4E will be a completely different animal compared to its progenitors. So essentially, you're going to try to port over D&D stuff into a "new game". You could as well try to port AD&D stuff into Earthdawn, or Exalted, or any other fantasy RPG that has its own underpinnings which are different from what you worked with so far. And by trying this, you create all that work yourself. I mean, the designers expressively recommended dropping all your old stuff, and starting over completely. That alone is a pretty good pointer what they think of backwards compatibility.


----------



## Intrope (Sep 27, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I hope the Astral Sea is a "sea."  Otherwise, how can you have Githyanki pirates?



 Does that make Githzeri Ninjas?


----------



## Desdichado (Sep 27, 2007)

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> Yeah, but I think that's the point...4E will be a completely different animal compared to its progenitors. So essentially, you're going to try to port over D&D stuff into a "new game". You could as well try to port AD&D stuff into Earthdawn, or Exalted, or any other fantasy RPG that has its own underpinnings which are different from what you worked with so far. And by trying this, you create all that work yourself. I mean, the designers expressively recommended dropping all your old stuff, and starting over completely. That alone is a pretty good pointer what they think of backwards compatibility.



No, I really doubt that.  D&D is still D&D, and all versions of D&D ever produced still resemble each other tons more than they resemble anything else.

I don't know why anyone would think this is any harder to do---convert adventures because of some shifts in planar geography, that is.  It sounds like for the most part the same planes will all be there.  There may be a few adventures that heavily depend on the Ethereal plane or something (? I dunno, are there?) that won't convert easily, but most adventures tend to depend on stuff more like The Abyss, which still exists in (apparently) more or less the same form it always has.  I think the claim that this will be a lot of work to convert adventures is specious, unless you're heavily dependent on one or two really bizarre and unusual adventures.

It's also specious to assume that because you're playing 4e you need to use the included cosmology.  If you prefer the Great Wheel, I don't see any reason why you can't continue to use it with the new mechanics.


----------



## kenmarable (Sep 27, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> I see the Astral Sea as killing the Great Wheel and the Phlogiston and taking its things. (You got your Planescape in my Spelljammer. You got your Spelljammer in my Planescape).



Planejamming!!  (Those two quirky settings always were a nice fit.)


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2007)

Intrope said:
			
		

> Does that make Githzeri Ninjas?




Well, they're already monkish, are they not?  'Tis a very small step from there.  The question then becomes, "where are the dinosaurs?"


----------



## frankthedm (Sep 27, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> I mean, they are going out of their way with the "points of light" to make you and your neighbors 10 miles away more isolated, yet they are making other planes of existence more accessible?



Doors usually swing both ways. If players can get out there, _things_ can get in.

While PCs might be able to survive in those places, normal folks won't. They ain't moving in to the Fae realm or Corpseville, though those from beyond might find our realm more habitable...


----------



## Simia Saturnalia (Sep 27, 2007)

First off, LOVE IT, but you probably guessed that. Baaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Secondly, I feel the two new coterminous planes, Feywild and Shadowfell (nothing but nouns in there, guys), are both solidly sword & sorcery type places as well as enhancing the points of light feel. Being mirrors of the world, and so close on a cosmological scale, means that 'slipping' between them accidentally in resonant areas (groves under full and new moons, graveyards, etc) is likely (at least, IMO).

Thirdly, GVDammerung; if your only interest in 4e threads is being "transfixed by a NASCAR-like "watch it for the spectacular crashes"", is there any chance you could do so _to yourself_? I get it, you don't like 4e and want it to fail based on the insane notion that they'll then a) release a new edition b) design this new edition by going *backwards*. I can put that in my sig if it'll make you feel better about not reminding us every time they drop a new column. This comes only from a user with no power and a tiny post count, but as a favor, stop relieving yourself in the punch bowl just because the party's not to your taste.


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 27, 2007)

Tharen the Damned said:
			
		

> I do not see Bill Balor and Vinnie Vrock sharing a 2 room Flat in a 1.000 floor Spire in Abyssia. A City growing so fast that even Zeus Inc. (the multiverse' foremost lightning company) will invest a substantial amount to build a branch office there.




I guess you haven't heard of the pilot for the D&D Sitcom: "There's Hell to Pay in the Abyss" then, have you?


----------



## Remathilis (Sep 27, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> "where are the dinosaurs?"




Read through the rest of this thread, they're here.

(I kid, I kid!)


----------



## Lonely Tylenol (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm just going to quote this, because I think it's worth repeating.



			
				Simia Saturnalia said:
			
		

> Thirdly, GVDammerung; if your only interest in 4e threads is being "transfixed by a NASCAR-like "watch it for the spectacular crashes"", is there any chance you could do so _to yourself_?




There are people on these boards who don't like the changes and who are actually contributing to the dialogue in a meaningful way.  I would like to thank them for remaining sane and reasonable.


----------



## Baduin (Sep 27, 2007)

Feywild (or Fey Wilderness) and Shadowfell(s), apart from ungainly names, are an enormous improvement to D&D. In fact, Gary Gygax apparently had something like Feywild in mind from the beginning. He wrote recently:

"


			
				Geoffrey said:
			
		

> Gary, I understand that the world of Aerth is a fleshing-out of what was in part undeveloped and/or implicit in your original Greyhawk campaign world. How did the counter-earth of Phaeree figure into your original D&D campaign world? Did you always envision most of the non-human critters (elves, giants, dragons, etc.) as being "away from home [i. e., Phaeree]" when on Oerth? Or was Aerth's Phaeree a later conception? In either case, it is a most intriguing way of presenting a solid ecology for a fantasy world. It allows for a magical "alternate Earth" setting, allowing it to remain humanocentric and answering the question, "How can these monsters be here without totally screwing-up the world's ecology?" [Answer: The monsters aren't native to the campaign world. They are interlopers from another world, arriving here through magical gates.]
> 
> And once again let me congratulate you on your Epic of Aerth book. It is simply packed with good stuff.
> ...






			
				Col_Pladoh said:
			
		

> I always assumed that the strange creatures in the D&D fantasy world were natives of another world. This is implicit in most folklore and fantasy alike. I simply did not elucidate that until I write the Mythus rules and detailed its world setting Aerth.
> 
> So thank you for the very kind words in regards my creative efforts in prresenting RPG concepts.
> 
> ...



"

As regards Succubi, I think their presence in the Abyss can be explained quite easily. We know that Ice Devils are actually captive demons. So, if Succubi are actually devils, what do they do in Abyss? When the question is so stated, the answer is obvious. The usual duty of Succubi is to seduce, corrupt and control. So, they have been sent to Abyss in order to control the demons.

It also pretty well explains the reason why both Malcanthet and Shami-Amourae oppose Demogorgon in the last Dungeon Adventure Path - that is the reason for which they have been sent to Abyss. They were to control him, and when that proved impossible, to betray and defeat him.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2007)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> Read through the rest of this thread, they're here.
> 
> (I kid, I kid!)




Man, did I walk into that, or what....


----------



## Stormtalon (Sep 27, 2007)

kenmarable said:
			
		

> Planejamming!!  (Those two quirky settings always were a nice fit.)




Ooooh, enchanted ships pushing thru the planar barriers to get to the Astral Sea -- and being the only safe way there!  Hmmm, this gives ideas, yesssss.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 27, 2007)

Another thing that comes to mind - trying to get myself off of my silly kick - is that this brings to mind the planar strucutre in *Ars Magica*, where a section of Faerie can be accessed via faerie rings, etc.  Its even possible for sections of tihs world to be "swapped out" for a similarly sized section of the other plane (I forget what the word is that they use in Ars Magica)...  Which is something I've used in my game.


----------



## sckeener (Sep 27, 2007)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Another thing that comes to mind - trying to get myself off of my silly kick - is that this brings to mind the planar strucutre in *Ars Magica*, where a section of Faerie can be accessed via faerie rings, etc.  Its even possible for sections of tihs world to be "swapped out" for a similarly sized section of the other plane (I forget what the word is that they use in Ars Magica)...  Which is something I've used in my game.




yup...hence why the faerie stuff didn't seem strange to me at all.  I, too, have been doing regiones from ars magica in my D&D games.

I prefer to bleed over from one plane to another near a gate and regiones work for that.


----------



## Shortman McLeod (Sep 27, 2007)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> However, I can envision the sea of flesh : an amalgation (is that even a word ?) of billions of dretchs moaning and groaning, while beeing slowly attracted toward the center of he abyss, where they are shred to bits. The soul energy released by their death and suffering forms dark bolts thousands of miles long, that corrupt the essence of the elemental creatures they strike.




Argh! You guys, stop coming up with cool images that I must steal for my next campaign!   

Seriously bro, that was cool.


----------



## Charwoman Gene (Sep 27, 2007)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> an amalgation (is that even a word ?)




Well, the spelling is amalgamation but you certainly used it right.  Good use of imagery.


----------



## Gentlegamer (Sep 27, 2007)

I wonder if the designers have been reading _Nifft the Lean_ lately . . .


----------



## Aloïsius (Sep 27, 2007)

Shortman McLeod said:
			
		

> Argh! You guys, stop coming up with cool images that I must steal for my next campaign!
> 
> Seriously bro, that was cool.




I think Jack Vance should receive a part of the credit : Murgen cite a "course of flesh" (IIRC) in the Lyonnesse book, just two words used in a planar context that sparkled my imagination. 

However, the question about this sea of flesh is : what to do with it, as a DM ? How make a "fun" adventure in such a place ? 

It would need something else, I guess : physical structures to interact with, like shores, islands, reefs... 
I can imagine the PC having to sneak inside Demogorgon realm. They must swim under the sea of flesh (better have a good protective spell, or something) ; pass through voratious demonic reefs, navigate by using the position of the river of fire floating above in the sky to guide them ; resist the current of the fleshsea ; escape from one dretch cataract where Vrocks are prying upon falling creatures like seabirds on newborne turtles ; negociate a free passage in some Charon-like boat ; and, then, they can enter Demogorgon real by the "rear door", without triggering the alarm.



> Well, the spelling is amalgamation



I knew I read something like that somewhere. Alas, google did have pages about "amalgation", so I did not looked further. Next time, I will use a translator if I need to say "amalgame" in english.


----------



## Rechan (Sep 27, 2007)

Lurks-no-More said:
			
		

> You know, the reason for why this reminds you of the Exalted cosmology (it's not "spot on", IMO, though) might just be that both games are tapping to similar mythological material... Feywild is the Faerie, Shadowfell is the Greek underworld, the gods are off living in their heavens. It's common ancestry and convergent evolution, I think, and it might do D&D some good.



Hate to point this out, but one of the 4e designers _did_ work on the Exalted setting, too.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 27, 2007)

Stormtalon said:
			
		

> Ooooh, enchanted ships pushing thru the planar barriers to get to the Astral Sea -- and being the only safe way there!  Hmmm, this gives ideas, yesssss.



At least until the Epic levels of 4e, when plane jumping magic could be available.


----------



## Daztur (Sep 28, 2007)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Hate to point this out, but one of the 4e designers _did_ work on the Exalted setting, too.




What's funny is that I've seen people talking about the similarities between the new cosmology an WoD, Exalted, Birthright, Ars Magica and a dozen others. They're not ripping off any one setting, they're just using very common mythological themes.


----------



## Reaper Steve (Sep 28, 2007)

Well, Rich Baker just upadted his blog, saying that the Abyss is the size of 'Jupiter thousands.'
He states that Jupiter has a 80,000 mile diameter, 300 times the size of Earth.

A quick internet perusal shows that Jupiter is almost 89,000 miles in diameter (bigger than he thought), but that is just over 11 times that of Earth, not 300 (relatively much smaller.) 

Garnted, it is a whole order of magnitude bigger, which is much better, but I have two issues:
1) 'Thousands' typically implies 1000-9000, so I would instead state 'the Abyss is tens of thousands of miles across.' Even better, state 'The Abyss is an almost unfathomable 100,000 miles across.'
2) Best: Go one more order of magnitude... "The Abyss is an unfathomable hundreds of thousands of miles across.'


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Sep 28, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> A quick internet perusal shows that Jupiter is almost 89,000 miles in diameter (bigger than he thought), but that is just over 11 times that of Earth, not 300 (relatively much smaller.)



300 (or so) Earths fit inside Jupiter. Diameter is not volume.


----------



## TwinBahamut (Sep 28, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> Well, Rich Baker just upadted his blog, saying that the Abyss is the size of 'Jupiter thousands.'
> He states that Jupiter has a 80,000 mile diameter, 300 times the size of Earth.
> 
> A quick internet perusal shows that Jupiter is almost 89,000 miles in diameter (bigger than he thought), but that is just over 11 times that of Earth, not 300 (relatively much smaller.)
> ...



11 Earths by diameter, but 300 Earths by volume. Rich Baker got it right. Jupiter is so huge that you could fit every other planet and the whole asteroid belt inside of it, including the other big cloudy ones.

Of course, I don't understand why the Abyss has to be so big, myself. It seems ridiculous. I would much rather have an Abyss which a bunch of PCs could reasonably put a dent into. I hate the idea of planar things which are so vast that PCs can't affect them...


----------



## Sir Brennen (Sep 28, 2007)

Reaper Steve said:
			
		

> A quick internet perusal shows that Jupiter is almost 89,000 miles in diameter (bigger than he thought), but that is just over 11 times that of Earth, not 300 (relatively much smaller.)



I think it's about 300 times the mass of Earth. It's about 1300 times the volume. 120 times the surface area.

Okay, done now.


----------



## Merlin the Tuna (Sep 28, 2007)

Baduin said:
			
		

> Feywild (or Fey Wilderness) and Shadowfell(s), apart from ungainly names, are an enormous improvement to D&D. In fact, Gary Gygax apparently had something like Feywild in mind from the beginning. He wrote recently:



Admittedly I actually like the Feywild and Shadowfell as names, but either way you look at 'em, they're better than making a fantasy world and calling it Oerth.  And then making another one and calling it Aerth.  There's a reason that Futurama's "Universe A and Universe 1" gag was a gag, after all.


----------



## Reaper Steve (Sep 28, 2007)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> 300 (or so) Earths fit inside Jupiter. Diameter is not volume.




What I'm saying is that Jupiter's diameter is 11 times the diameter of the Earth. As Sir Brennan stated, 1300 Earths could fit inside Jupiter.  

After rereading his blog he does state 'Jupiter's like 80,000 miles across *and* 300 times the size of the Earth.' I misread...I thought he thought the diameter was 300 times Earth's.  (To be correct...Jupiter is 1300 times the size, 300 times the mass...so he still didn't pick the best reference.)

So that's good news...he's aware of the size he's suggesting and is fine with it. 

But I still stand by my opinion that stating 'the Abyss is thousands of miles across' does not properly convey that it is meant to be able to swallow Jupiter. 'Thousands of miles across' means it can swallow one Earth at a time. 'Almost 100,000 miles across' means it can swallow over a 1000 Earths at once, with room for  tens of thousands inside.


----------



## helium3 (Sep 28, 2007)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> Admittedly I actually like the Feywild and Shadowfell as names, but either way you look at 'em, they're better than making a fantasy world and calling it Oerth.  And then making another one and calling it Aerth.  There's a reason that Futurama's "Universe A and Universe 1" gag was a gag, after all.




Blasphemy!!!


----------



## Mouseferatu (Sep 28, 2007)

helium3 said:
			
		

> Blasphemy!!!




Well, burn me along with him, then.

I love a huge amount of what Gygax did--I don't think I'd be doing what I do for a living if I didn't --but his naming conventions were always hit-and-miss with me. He had some diamonds, absolutely, but there was also a great deal of rough to dig through to find them.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Sep 28, 2007)

Daztur said:
			
		

> wrong thread



Your fingers say "wrong thread," but your eyes say "yes."


----------



## Rechan (Sep 28, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Your fingers say "wrong thread," but your eyes say "yes."



Buddy, if eyes are talking to you, lay off the alchemical substances.


----------



## Li Shenron (Sep 28, 2007)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
> 
> This is simply going to further inflame the ongoing conflict between those who want them to keep the Great Wheel and those who don't.
> 
> Me? I like the sound of this. Feels much more mythic and properly spiritual to me.




I thinke the flames are caused by a basic misconception: that if it is in the books, it must be followed, and if those who don't follow are sort-of out of the mainstream and can be looked upon 

But I don't think such is the nature of fluff... Even the MotP itself made it quite clear that the Great Wheel is an EXAMPLE, and tries to encourage gamers to make up whatever they want. But no, many gamers won't listen, and complain about the fluff being restrictive.

Of course, some fluff has conquences to the crunch, sometimes it's inevitable, like making all Devils LE and all Demons CE. It's fundamentally a fluff matter, but then it changes practical things like how spells work against a devil rather than a demon. But it can be changed, and it's not that difficult.

Personally I am very in favor of even more suggestions to "do it yourself" by the core books. That's how D&D started anyway, as a game where fantasy and imagination is not just in the story being told but also in how to play the game.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 28, 2007)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I thinke the flames are caused by a basic misconception: that if it is in the books, it must be followed, and if those who don't follow are sort-of out of the mainstream and can be looked upon
> 
> But I don't think such is the nature of fluff... Even the MotP itself made it quite clear that the Great Wheel is an EXAMPLE, and tries to encourage gamers to make up whatever they want. But no, many gamers won't listen, and complain about the fluff being restrictive.
> 
> Of course, some fluff has conquences to the crunch, sometimes it's inevitable, like making all Devils LE and all Demons CE. It's fundamentally a fluff matter, but then it changes practical things like how spells work against a devil rather than a demon. But it can be changed, and it's not that difficult.



This is true when alignments remain as strong in a mechanical sense as they are currently (like with Subtypes and Detect Evil spells). 
If alignment just gives you a few role-playing guideliens and no mechanical benefits or drawbacks, crunch is unaffected...


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## Baby Samurai (Sep 28, 2007)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> This is true when alignments remain as strong in a mechanical sense as they are currently (like with Subtypes and Detect Evil spells).
> If alignment just gives you a few role-playing guideliens and no mechanical benefits or drawbacks, crunch is unaffected...




Exactly, and if what I hear is true, alignment will no longer have any mechanical affect on play (finally!).

As a DM detect evil is irritating and boring, and remember Alignment Languages…?


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## Lorthanoth (Sep 28, 2007)

Love it, love it, love it. This is a more Moorcock style multiverse, a more Robert Jordan style approach to parallel realities, a messier, , more dangerous way of traversing reality. I love Planescape, but this arrangement has much more in common with fantasy literature and real-world legend. Great stuff.


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## Klaus (Sep 28, 2007)

I liked the Elemental Chaos so much that I took a stab at making a picture of it:


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## FreeXenon (Sep 28, 2007)

*Very Cool!*

Very Cool, Klaus! I really like it. 
I am convinced that this is the happening place to be.


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## Midknightsun (Sep 28, 2007)

Klaus, pure awesome on the picture, pure awesome.


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## Gold Roger (Sep 28, 2007)

From what I've heard so far, the new cosmology seems really great. And I was convinced I'd stick to the great weel no matter what.

That's it, don't mind me. I'm just spreading positive thoughts at critical laylines with no insidious motive or ritual in mind. At all.


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## Sundragon2012 (Sep 28, 2007)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> Admittedly I actually like the Feywild and Shadowfell as names, but either way you look at 'em, they're better than making a fantasy world and calling it Oerth.  And then making another one and calling it Aerth.  There's a reason that Futurama's "Universe A and Universe 1" gag was a gag, after all.




I will join you and Mouseferatu in your heresy.

I think we need to be questioned by the Spenesh Inquisition...or is it the Spinash Inquisition...or the Hsanips Inquisition.   

I credit E.G.G. with the birth of D&D but his naming conventions sucked more often than not.



Sundragon


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## Geron Raveneye (Sep 28, 2007)

Just wanted to chime in with the admirers of Klaus' picture...pure brilliance. Man, I hope they hire you for 4E illustrations!


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## TwinBahamut (Sep 28, 2007)

Klaus' picture is good, but it just doesn't look enough like a "tempest" to me, its too sedate. Needs more raining fire barraging castles of ice and swirling vortices of earth and lightning. The elements of that picture are kinda seperate and at peace with each other, not constantly combinging and conflicting like they would in a place which is called a Maelstrom or an Elemental Chaos.


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## Geron Raveneye (Sep 29, 2007)

Heh, funny...either the FR become the new "default" setting for D&D 4E (if yes, I missed something), or they're turning back to the policy of "one cosmology for all"  

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13932726&postcount=554


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## M.L. Martin (Sep 29, 2007)

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> Klaus' picture is good, but it just doesn't look enough like a "tempest" to me, its too sedate. Needs more raining fire barraging castles of ice and swirling vortices of earth and lightning. The elements of that picture are kinda seperate and at peace with each other, not constantly combinging and conflicting like they would in a place which is called a Maelstrom or an Elemental Chaos.




  Call it a picture of the 'middle regions'.  In the central regions they're clashing and creating new and strange combinations; in the outer regions, they tend to differentiate and clump together more strongly, leading earlier scholars to the conclusion that there were four (or more) distinct Elemental Planes that bordered each other.


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## Fobok (Sep 29, 2007)

Matthew L. Martin said:
			
		

> Call it a picture of the 'middle regions'.  In the central regions they're clashing and creating new and strange combinations; in the outer regions, they tend to differentiate and clump together more strongly, leading earlier scholars to the conclusion that there were four (or more) distinct Elemental Planes that bordered each other.




I really like that idea. Helps me accept the changes a little easier.


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## The Little Raven (Sep 29, 2007)

Geron Raveneye said:
			
		

> Heh, funny...either the FR become the new "default" setting for D&D 4E (if yes, I missed something), or they're turning back to the policy of "one cosmology for all"




I don't think it'll be a one-Cosmology-fits-all situation again, I just think they're turning the Forgotten Realms into the most "basic D&D" of the settings (which makes sense, since it's the #1 recognized D&D setting), so it will use things pretty much straight out of the core, with new story and hooks taking precedent over new mechanics.

Eberron, for example, uses everything in D&D, but throws a huge twist on everything (including it's interesting planar setup). I don't see them abandoning those twists to bring it in line with D&D 4th Edition's cosmology changes (just as I don't see the other campaign worlds succumbing to this change).


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