# [Skywalker discussion] What would "break" Star Wars for you?



## Mercurius (Aug 28, 2019)

The title is a bit hyperbolic, but the latest trailer got me thinking about how pivotal this film is for the overall legacy of the franchise. It is the ninth and final episode, completing the "Skywalker Family Epic." It is also the film that will--or could--determine many fans' feeling for the last trilogy, which has been somewhat controversial (is that an understatement?).

I haven't been following discussion around the Skywalker film and leaks in any depth, but on a cursory search it seems like there are some potential controversies brewing. Obviously there's the Dark Side Rey, which we all saw in the recent trailer. There's also rumors of the Emperor, Snoke, and even Vader making comebacks. There's the question of Rey's parentage. Etc.

But the key point is, regardless of what actually is revealed, a lot of loose ends will be tied up, questions answers and mysteries solved. In just a few months, the 42-year Skywalker saga will be over (probably), and while you never know what the future will bring, chances are we'll find a lot of resolution.

So my question for everyone is this: What resolutions, revelations, answers, plot devices, etc, would "break" the series for you? Maybe the series is already broken for you, but presumably there's a chance at redemption. But what would put the nail in the coffin of SW? 

I write this as someone who loves the original trilogy, and have mixed feelings on both the prequels and sequels, for different reasons that I don't want to re-hash. But I'm OK with the original trilogy remaining "sacred," and the other six films being "optional embellishments." In other words, I don't hate the prequels or sequels, but am more ambivalent about their place in the canon, in a non-attached way. The closest analogy, in my mind, are the Matrix films: the first film was great, two and three were rather disappointing and somewhat diminished the power of the first, but I still enjoyed watching them and don't think they were total losses or ruined the original film. And so it is with the prequels and sequels (imo).

Anyhow, the closest thing to a real deal-breaker for me would be the resurrection of Darth Vader in some form or fashion. I don't mind a Force ghost, and I wouldn't even mind a cloned Anakin, but Vader's death is rather sacred to the story. In a way it is kind of like the death of Jean Grey in the X-Men comics...while she was one of my favorite characters and I was glad she came back (several times), it also diminished the poignancy of the original Phoenix story.

I also hope that Palpatine isn't back, as his death was central to Vader's redemption (And to be honest, I grew tired of Ian McDiarmid's over-acting and really don't want to re-visit it).

Maybe nothing is truly a deal-breaker, but those two would be hard for me to feel justified.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 28, 2019)

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## Mercurius (Aug 28, 2019)

^OK, that's your feelings, which are fine, but it isn't really the topic of the thread.

Is there any revelations or plot developments that would--if not break--at least tarnish the films for you? In other words, with lots of open questions, what answers would bother you?


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## Istbor (Aug 28, 2019)

Yeah I mean. They are all better than Attack of the Clones, ugh. What a terrible piece of cinema. Cringe worthy "falling in love" arc. Ruining in some part, to me, Padme. She was a queen and Senator for crying out loud!

What could break it for me? I think Vader Resurrection is up there, maybe that dumb Jar Jar Sith theory being true would hurt too. 

Oh... and Deadpool. I love Deadpool, but if he randomly showed up in a Star Wars movie, that would also break it for me.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 28, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Wiseblood (Aug 28, 2019)

If TLJ isn’t a dream sequence brought on by a high fever. Luke being a jaded old quitter without any leadup broke it a bit. It was like when Anakin went to the dark side to protect the Palpatine and said “oh well, I guess I’ll just massacre everyone” smh.


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## Jacob Lewis (Aug 28, 2019)

Mercurius said:


> So my question for everyone is this: What resolutions, revelations, answers, plot devices, etc, would "break" the series for you? Maybe the series is already broken for you, but presumably there's a chance at redemption. But what would put the nail in the coffin of SW?



I have not been able to sit through Last Jedi, thus the series ended for me there. I've no interest in what happens next.

Besides, I've invested way too much to allow the visions and opinions of others to influence or "break" the Star Wars for me.


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## Retreater (Aug 28, 2019)

For me, already broken. But to be fair, the prequel trilogy had already ruined Star Wars for me. 
The Force Awakens brought back a little hope, but Rogue One [unpopular opinion] and Solo were both pointless cash-grabs.
The Last Jedi - I didn't hate it for the reasons many online claim to hate it. It doesn't work for me as the middle chapter in a trilogy. It burned bridges, it closed doors, it dropped plot threads and made you feel stupid for asking the question in the first place. 
We've all learned from roleplaying games that storytelling is "yes - and." TLJ just said "no," and as a result it was a joyless, meandering, film that feels out of place in the rest of the saga. There's no thread left from the original trilogy or sequel trilogy that needs to be explored now. It's the worst thing they could've done for the middle chapter of a trilogy.
So - since you asked - Star Wars is already broken for me. I'm done with it.


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## Istbor (Aug 28, 2019)

Retreater said:


> For me, already broken. But to be fair, the prequel trilogy had already ruined Star Wars for me.
> The Force Awakens brought back a little hope, but Rogue One [unpopular opinion] and Solo were both pointless cash-grabs.
> The Last Jedi - I didn't hate it for the reasons many online claim to hate it. It doesn't work for me as the middle chapter in a trilogy. It burned bridges, it closed doors, it dropped plot threads and made you feel stupid for asking the question in the first place.
> We've all learned from roleplaying games that storytelling is "yes - and." TLJ just said "no," and as a result it was a joyless, meandering, film that feels out of place in the rest of the saga. There's no thread left from the original trilogy or sequel trilogy that needs to be explored now. It's the worst thing they could've done for the middle chapter of a trilogy.
> So - since you asked - Star Wars is already broken for me. I'm done with it.




At the risk of derailment, I am curious to know where you think there should have been Yes and... but instead was a No? I can think of maybe a few places that would makes sense, but I am interesting in your opinion on this.


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## Retreater (Aug 28, 2019)

Istbor said:


> At the risk of derailment, I am curious to know where you think there should have been Yes and... but instead was a No? I can think of maybe a few places that would makes sense, but I am interesting in your opinion on this.




Assuming at this point I don't need to post spoiler tags. Haha

Any one of these being a "yes and" would have made TLJ a better film.

Will Luke take his saber? no
Will Luke train Rey? no
Can we find out who Rey's parents are? no
Can we find out more about Snoke? no
Can we find out why the Resistance was started? no
Can we find out where the First Order came from? no
Can we find this code breaker? no 
Can Poe do anything besides stay under house arrest on a ship? no
Can Finn and Rose buy time for their friends? no
Will Kylo show any character growth? no
Will Resistance reinforcements come help the heroes? no
Is Luke's story about trying to kill Kylo different than Kylo's? no
Will Rey fail anything? no
Will Rey sway to Kylo's side? no
Will Kylo sway to Rey's side? no


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## Istbor (Aug 28, 2019)

Interesting. I certainly see some of those points as valid, but others to me felt like the answer was yes and. Just not in the way some people may have hoped. I also valued some of those No's because of how it turned the expected or even fan assumed outcome on its ear. 

I think it just comes down to tastes and interpretation. 

Thanks for the that.


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## Retreater (Aug 28, 2019)

Istbor said:


> Interesting. I certainly see some of those points as valid, but others to me felt like the answer was yes and. Just not in the way some people may have hoped. I also valued some of those No's because of how it turned the expected or even fan assumed outcome on its ear.
> 
> I think it just comes down to tastes and interpretation.
> 
> Thanks for the that.




I get that some of them might be "no, but..." more than "yes, and..." 

But certainly for my tastes, every available opportunity to make things more interesting went in the exact opposite direction, shutting down my interest for what might happen next.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 28, 2019)

Istbor said:


> What could break it for me? I think Vader Resurrection is up there, maybe that dumb Jar Jar Sith theory being true would hurt too.
> 
> Oh... and Deadpool. I love Deadpool, but if he randomly showed up in a Star Wars movie, that would also break it for me.




Yeah this would do it for me. 

Also, the force being measurable by a test for tiny amounts of microscopic creatures... oh wait. 

While I'm tempted to rag on more prequel stuff I'll try to stay on the topic at hand.

I'll simply sum up with this. I want the send off to feel fantastic and heroic


Spoiler



like Luke tossing his lightsaber away and rejecting the temptation of the dark side, and that inspiring his father to save him and redeem a part of himself lost forever.


 I don't know if it would "break" star wars for me if it didn't but I'd be disappointed.


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## Legatus Legionis (Aug 28, 2019)

.


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## BookBarbarian (Aug 29, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> When he sold Star Wars to Disney, it was reported he gave them his outline for the Final Trilogy.




“[The next three _Star Wars_ films] were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there’s this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force… If I’d held onto the company I could have done it, and then it would have been done. Of course, a lot of the fans would have hated it, just like they did _Phantom Menace_ and everything, but at least the whole story from beginning to end would be told.” 

George is right about one thing. I would have hated it.


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## Gradine (Aug 29, 2019)

Retreater said:


> Will Rey fail anything? no
> Will Rey sway to Kylo's side? no






Retreater said:


> Will Rey fail anything? no
> Will Rey sway to Kylo's side? no






Retreater said:


> Will Rey fail anything? no
> Will Rey sway to Kylo's side? no


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## ccs (Aug 29, 2019)

I'm afraid that my feelings on the final trilogy are set. 
The initial damage was done when JJA gave me a poor rehash of a ANH instead of an original SW tale.  It was cemented with that drivel they called TLJ.  So I'm not giving them my $ this time.

Does this "break SW" for me? 
No.
I will be a fan of NH/ESB/RotJ (& all the imagination those inspire) until the day I die.
And I'm entertained by Episodes I-III, Rogue One, hopefully The Mandolorian, any console/PC game where I get to fly the various ships, & the various Miniatures based games.
I also hope that there's some little kid out there who is (somehow) inspired by this current wave of SW who'll entertain me in 20-30 years.

As for this trilogy? 
I'm throwing it into the trash heap along side The Holiday Special, 99% of the EU material, fanfic, the GoT finale, & Highlander 2.
(Unless there's a post credit scene where Luke/somebody wakes up revealing this crap to be a dream sequence)


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Probably some sort of Vader resurrection/clone. 

Force ghost is fine.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

ccs said:


> I'm afraid that my feelings on the final trilogy are set.
> The initial damage was done when JJA gave me a poor rehash of a ANH instead of an original SW tale.  It was cemented with that drivel they called TLJ.  So I'm not giving them my $ this time.
> 
> Does this "break SW" for me?
> ...




Some fanfic is better.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> For me, Disney Wars is broken.
> 
> I remember back in the late 70's in an interview about why his movie was episode three, George Lucas stated his Star Wars was always planned to be nine episodes.  HE was doing the main trilogy, then the prequals, then the sequels.  When he sold Star Wars to Disney, it was reported he gave them his outline for the Final Trilogy.  Disney says Thanks, but we will do it OUR WAY NOW.
> 
> For me, the Thrawn Series of books and the Dark Empire comics is MORE true Star Wars than Disney's ever will be.




If you like Dark Empire you might like IX. 

 If TFA ripped off ANH, IX seems to have a lot of Dark Empire elements.


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## Legatus Legionis (Aug 29, 2019)

.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Legatus_Legionis said:


> As you have stated, these sequel trilogies feel like cheap rip-offs of other Star Wars sources, IMO.
> 
> Nothing feels authentic nor original.
> 
> ...




 Have you looked closely at the OG Star Destroyers in the trailer? There's something on the bottom you might recognize from the old EU.


Predating the last trailer but it actually doubles down on his observation.

The plot is hitting a lot of the points of Dark Empire along with refluffed specific elements of it like Palps returning, hyperspace superweapons, hidden fleets, bigger better Star Destroyers, Super Star destroyers, Star destroyers with superlasers, new darkside order. There's a few more as well apparently.


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## Gradine (Aug 29, 2019)

Rogue One was basically two short movies back-to-back; one was really awful and the other was kickin' rad but ultimately sunk because the first half failed to get me to care for the characters in any meaningful way. Solo was... fine. It was... competent. I daresay some parts even approached fun. But ultimately it was completely unnecessary and the behind the scenes drama is probably what ruined it (it could have turned out as either Ant-Man or the most recent Fantastic Four and ended up somewhere squarely in-between).

The Force Awakens was good; yeah it's a little fan-servicey and _very _re-hashy but that's exactly J.J. Abrams' shtick, it's the one thing he probably does exceedingly well (see also: Super 8) and I personally thought it was exactly what the franchise needed after the prequels basically destroyed anyone's reason to have any faith in the future films. The Last Jedi would have been the perfect Star Wars movie had all the boring business on Canto Bight been about half as long and twice as meaningful in the long run, but it filled at least part of a hole for me and made the universe a little darker and I appreciated that. I will note that KoTOR II is my favorite Star Wars game so I'm definitely not adverse to some deconstruction. That most of the criticism of the movie is flat out factually incorrect (the whole "Rey never fails" thing being the most absurd one as she spends almost the entire movie objectively failing in most of her goals and the tests set out for her) and/or politically motivated makes it easier to ignore, especially considering the film still did exceedingly well, was a critical and commercial success, vocal minority, etc. etc.

Also, again, J.J.'s only really a great filmmaker when he's doing clear homage and while I think that was perfectly fine for TFA that's not going to really fly here, but I'm cautiously optimistic that this will be a fitting if not amazing end to the trilogy.

I think about the only thing that would cause the film to "fail" for me would be if Kylo is redeemed _and _Rey falls; or _maybe _if she has to sacrifice herself for his redemption, at least if they try to play it as a "Kylo was the real main character all along" twist which knowing J.J. is at least... kinda plausible?


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Gradine said:


> Rogue One was basically two short movies back-to-back; one was really awful and the other was kickin' rad but ultimately sunk because the first half failed to get me to care for the characters in any meaningful way. Solo was... fine. It was... competent. I daresay some parts even approached fun. But ultimately it was completely unnecessary and the behind the scenes drama is probably what ruined it (it could have turned out as either Ant-Man or the most recent Fantastic Four and ended up somewhere squarely in-between).
> 
> The Force Awakens was good; yeah it's a little fan-servicey and _very _re-hashy but that's exactly J.J. Abrams' shtick, it's the one thing he probably does exceedingly well (see also: Super 8) and I personally thought it was exactly what the franchise needed after the prequels basically destroyed anyone's reason to have any faith in the future films. The Last Jedi would have been the perfect Star Wars movie had all the boring business on Canto Bight been about half as long and twice as meaningful in the long run, but it filled at least part of a hole for me and made the universe a little darker and I appreciated that. I will note that KoTOR II is my favorite Star Wars game so I'm definitely not adverse to some deconstruction. That most of the criticism of the movie is flat out factually incorrect (the whole "Rey never fails" thing being the most absurd one as she spends almost the entire movie objectively failing in most of her goals and the tests set out for her) and/or politically motivated makes it easier to ignore, especially considering the film still did exceedingly well, was a critical and commercial success, vocal minority, etc. etc.
> 
> ...




TLJ kind of had a third part of a trilogy vibe to it not part two. 

 If they spilt it into two movies and tied it I TFA better might have worked better.

Rewatched TFA recently and they made an effort to plant seeds in it which could have been interesting. Expectations subverted.


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## Istbor (Aug 29, 2019)

I don't know if I have said this before.  I feel it more and more, that extensive reading or knowledge of the old spin off books is some of the cause of discontent.

Both from people I know, and following topics on the forums. People who read most of that content seem to lean on the "#NotmySWs" side of things.

I think I read a couple of books, both more about Bobba Fett in the aftermath and I feel really good about this new branch of the saga. Sure, there are things I imagined I could have liked better. Alternate time lines for this story. Canto Bite that I thought was just... ugh. I mean, yes, it helps establish this big seedy underbelly of the Galaxy, that good and evil aren't always clear cut. I like those sort of worlds. It just seemed to ruin the pacing for me.

Every time i have this discussion, someone steps in with an old book story line. I see it a lot here too. While I am sure they are mining that material for ideas, it isn't THAT story they are telling. 

I hope I don't sound like I am lumping everyone in together who has enjoyed the books. I am sure much of them are quite good. But they don't matter any longer.

Let go... let go of your feelings...


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 29, 2019)

If I kept watching after Jar-Jar Binks, Midichlorians, and the Sand monologue, I’m not sure anything would break Star Wars for me.

I’ve loved all the recent Star Wars movies, and suspect I will love The Rise of Skywalker, too.

That being said I would be a little disappointed in a redemption arc for Kylo Ren. I just don’t know how he could earn that after killing Han Solo and Luke Skywalker. Sure, he could sacrifice himself for some noble cause, but to make it ring true as redemption, that’d be a hard sell.


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## Tonguez (Aug 29, 2019)

Midichlorians and whiney Anakin already broke Star Wars, the original New Hope trilogy crafted an epic fantasy and heroes journey from peasant farmer to Champion battling the Dark Knight and evil Empire, the 'prequel
 tore the fantasy down so ot became just another sci-fi setting

Force Awakens helped redeem it,but I had already lost interest, so havemt actually finished watching any of the stories after that. (I've started watching both Rogue One and Last Jedi, but didnt feel compelled to stay and so couldnt tell you how they ended)


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## lowkey13 (Aug 29, 2019)

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## Istbor (Aug 29, 2019)

Tonguez said:


> Midichlorians and whiney Anakin already broke Star Wars, the original New Hope trilogy crafted an epic fantasy and heroes journey from peasant farmer to Champion battling the Dark Knight and evil Empire, the 'prequel
> tore the fantasy down so ot became just another sci-fi setting
> 
> Force Awakens helped redeem it,but I had already lost interest, so havemt actually finished watching any of the stories after that. (I've started watching both Rogue One and Last Jedi, but didnt feel compelled to stay and so couldnt tell you how they ended)





lowkey13 said:


> I mean, Vader redeemed himself after:
> A. Killing his mentor, Obi Wan.
> B. Um, killing off all of the Jedi. Including the kids.
> C. Killing, just, you know, a genocidal amount of people.
> ...




But... but...V-Vader! Vader, man! Vader!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 29, 2019)

I guess it kinda broke a bit. TFA basically decided that the original trilogy's heroes ultimately failed and had a sad, unhappy life filled with regret, and TLJ did hammer it home. 

But that doesn't mean Star Wars its over. It'S just not as exciting anymore as it used to be, my heart isn't as much into it. It's more like... The Fast and Furious perhaps? Somethings I can watch because it has some cool stuff in it, but its not like I care that much, and I might not need to see all the installments in the cinema, I probably won't rewatch any of them, but I probably can expect some entertainment if I do.


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## lowkey13 (Aug 29, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Shardstone (Aug 29, 2019)

The Last Jedi is one of the worst films in the recent decade, but visually it is a masterpiece. Much like Game of Thrones Season 8, it has an exceedingly impossibly terrible script but really good everything else.


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## Ralif Redhammer (Aug 29, 2019)

I like to think of it as having an intact sense of wonder, not low standards..

That being said:
A. We just met Obi Wan an hour or so earlier when that happened. Han and Luke are childhood _icons_.
B. The Younglings hadn't been invented yet. Presumably, we'd have felt differently about Vader's redemption had there been a flashback of him murdering children in the original trilogy.
C.... Um, yeah, truth. No arguments here.



lowkey13 said:


> I mean, Vader redeemed himself after:
> A. Killing his mentor, Obi Wan.
> B. Um, killing off all of the Jedi. Including the kids.
> C. Killing, just, you know, a genocidal amount of people.
> ...


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## lowkey13 (Aug 29, 2019)

*Deleted by user*


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 29, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> Maybe that was the problem for some people? You know, like a mirror?
> 
> "Yeah, when you were a kid, you thought it was all light sabers and pew pew pew. You save the princess and everyone lives happily ever after, and maybe get a medal.
> 
> ...



YOu know, it's not that uncommon these days to do "fairy tale deconstructions" and show us that maybe just because your kiss woke up a princess that isn't the basis of a happy marriage or a stable government.

But the "beauty" of it is ... It's just one possible continuation.

But with a franchise like Star Wars - there is only the official one. There will be no others. If they decide that there is no happily everafter for your heroes, then you can't choose to ignore it and instead wait for the other movie were things turn out pretty good for them and the problems only start to happen long after they are gone, and it's time for new heroes to rise to the occasion.

Maybe all this is an argument against long-term copyrights and trademarks.
If Star Wars a "real" fairy tale, Disney could make some amazing Sci-Fi movies for the big scree, while CW makes some young adult relationship drama based around the Force, the Empire and the Rebels, and the BBC makes a mini-series about the origin of Darth Vader, and HBO makes a Star Wars retelling in a 21st century alternate reality.
But as it is, you can only buy the one "official" "licensed" version, and if you don't like what they come up with, tough luck, that story is now forever part of it and is not going away.
Creators like George Lucas or Gene Roddenberry (and the other creative people involved in giving their franchise life) certainly deserve the money they earned for their creation, but maybe at some point their creation still should go into the public domain so that others can expand on it, just as like people did with Sherlock Holmes or Shakespeare Dramas and Comedies or Homer's Odyssey.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Istbor said:


> I don't know if I have said this before.  I feel it more and more, that extensive reading or knowledge of the old spin off books is some of the cause of discontent.
> 
> Both from people I know, and following topics on the forums. People who read most of that content seem to lean on the "#NotmySWs" side of things.
> 
> ...




I mentioned this in the other thread. The old EU lasted 23 years even longer if you count the old marvel comics but the revival started 1991. 

 The problem of burning it down is why reinvest time and money into a new EU when they might do the same thing in the future if they reboot or sell the franchise. 

 Haven't bought a sausage in that regard since 2014. 

 The other problem was you had the old EU and previous movies establishing how things work. They swerved that but didn't explain to much and those explainations weren't put in the movies. 

 They kind of hint about the force awakens in  VII but never followed it up. 

 ANH and say the old Thrawn trilogy did a lot better job at introducing their new world.

I probably would have either burned the old EU down or cherry picked parts of it for the new canon. 3 characters in particular could be mined and you could reuse the TIE Defender on the big screen. 

 If you're going to destroy something better get the replacement right (see 4E, New Coke etc).


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## Zardnaar (Aug 29, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> YOu know, it's not that uncommon these days to do "fairy tale deconstructions" and show us that maybe just because your kiss woke up a princess that isn't the basis of a happy marriage or a stable government.
> 
> But the "beauty" of it is ... It's just one possible continuation.
> 
> ...




 You can do that if course just don't be surprised if fans turn in you if you do 

 It's fairly predictable even. I can only assume Disney assumed anything with Star Wars on it would sell.

 Now they're losing money, can't sell the toys, losing money on Star Wars films and can't fill their Star Wars theme park.

 How do you lose money on a Star Wars film? Seriously figure that one out.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 29, 2019)

Making the Dark Side explicitly an equal opposite that is part of nature, instead of a corruption of it, would come pretty close. 

I mean, I won't watch Rogue One because it posits that the Rebel Alliance used child assassins, and that is a direct 180 from the basic moral fabric of the story before that point. It changes who and what the Rebels are, and as a result changes the OT story. 

Stories about Good winning against Evil have value. They shouldn't be changed into shades of grey garbage just because Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad made a lot of money. 

In other words, if they make SW a story in which Good and Evil don't actually exist, where hope doesn't really mean anything, and where the heroes are just less bad than the villains, I'll probably be done with any future permutations of the franchise. 

Luckily, that doesn't seem to be where they are actually going, it just seems to be something they're flirting with a bit. So, I'm good.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Making the Dark Side explicitly an equal opposite that is part of nature, instead of a corruption of it, would come pretty close.
> 
> I mean, I won't watch Rogue One because it posits that the Rebel Alliance used child assassins, and that is a direct 180 from the basic moral fabric of the story before that point. It changes who and what the Rebels are, and as a result changes the OT story.
> 
> ...




 The process started long before then.
 I'll see if I can find it but there's an article saying the average Star Wars fan is a 46 year old middle class white mail.

 So a child in the 80s. 

 80s had these big action heroes and cartoons and things like Hulk Hogan.

 90s roll round, the kids if the 80s are now teenagers.

 What happened in the 90s? Decade starts with grunge music, gangsta rap and Marilyn Manson takes off mid 90s, Hulk Hogan turns heel and Stone Cold is drinking beer and flipping people off.

 90s ends with movies like Matrix, and aggressive nu metal and The Sopranos

 Star Wars 1991 cartoonish over the top Palpatine. Star War Wars 1999 religious war, genocide, inter galactic invasion.

 It's not impossible to do a traditional good vs evil it's a lot harder though especially with the last 20 years of television aka the Golden age of tv.
 In the 80s you might steal dad's Playboy, now kids are accessing hardcore porn on cellphones. 

 Modern kids don't seem to get Star Wars either at least like they used to. Resistance just got cancelled recently and they're doing another season of The Clone Wars. 

 The Mandalorian is getting rave hype over that trailer. Looks like Disney is pivoting. You need to figure out how to market to the fans. Get them on board you get their kids. Get those kids they will tell their friends.

 New trailer for IX was also pushing the OT stuff hard.


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## ccs (Aug 30, 2019)

lowkey13 said:


> I mean, Vader redeemed himself after:
> A. Killing his mentor, Obi Wan.
> B. Um, killing off all of the Jedi. Including the kids.
> C. Killing, just, you know, a genocidal amount of people.
> ...




Yeah.  It's been 36 years since I first saw RotJ & I still haven't bought that.  
Luke might've.  And we're shown him as good Anikin-the-Force-ghost.  But I still don't buy it.


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## MGibster (Aug 30, 2019)

I cut my teeth on the original trilogy in the 70s and 80s when I was a child, Star Wars was a breath of fresh air, and it all seemed so magical.  That's simply a recipe that couldn't be repeated with the prequels nor with the sequels.  I can't go back in time and be that same person I was as a child.  Any new Star Wars movie is going to fail to capture the magic of the originals.  

You can't break it for me.  I'll always have the originals that were a big part of my childhood.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 30, 2019)

One theory is it's not Palpatine but his master pulling the strings. Palps killed him, got possessed and will try to possess Rey.

Darth Plague however you spell his name.

Palpatine as such never existed.

If they do that I'm not sure if it's a twist of I am your father/ you are Revan proportions or that would subvert my expectations.

Better than the holiday special. Better acting than the prequels.


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## Mercurius (Aug 30, 2019)

How about the revelation that there is a Grandmaster Sith, whose name is...wait for it..._Darth Darkus!_


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## Umbran (Aug 30, 2019)

Crossover between Star Wars and the Marvel Cinematic Universe might just break it for me.


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## MarkB (Aug 30, 2019)

I mean, if it turns out to be a musical in which all the main characters are revealed to have been Ewoks in disguise, the character brought in to fill out what would have been Leia's role is Jar Jar Binks, and the finale is resolved as a dance-off between opposing troupes of AT-STs and Rancors...

...I guess I might hold off until after the opening weekend to go see it.


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## Deset Gled (Aug 30, 2019)

I've been a fan of Star Wars for a long time. I've seen all the movies, including the Ewoks and the animated. I've read books from Anderson to Zhaan. I've played video games from the arcade to Xbox. I've read comics from DC to Dark Horse. I've played the RPG. I've worn the underwear with characters printed on them. 

The quality of Star Wars has always varied, from high to the Xmas special. The new movie will be somewhere in between.  Given the sheer amount of material at this point, it's pretty much impossible for one entry to "break" it for me. 

What could break Star Wars for me is the fans. People have gotten so amazingly toxic, from simple stupidity to misogyny to outright trolling, that I intentionally avoid most discussions about it. When I feel like I have something to add, my voice is mostly lost in a sea of poison.  It's mostly my kids keeping it alive for me right now, because I can have a more intelligent discussion about Stars Wars with a 5 year old than most of the internet.


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## practicalm (Sep 1, 2019)

The loss of Mara Jade is what killed Star Wars for me.  
I wasn't fully attached to most of the EU material but what the new series gave us is a shallow replacement for some of the better material.
The most recent series just don't make any sense for me.  The story doesn't follow rationality or unless you change the character's personalities.


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## ccs (Sep 1, 2019)

Umbran said:


> Crossover between Star Wars and the Marvel Cinematic Universe might just break it for me.




Admit it.  You'd smile if you saw the GotG hanging out in the background of a cantina-like scene.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 1, 2019)

practicalm said:


> The loss of Mara Jade is what killed Star Wars for me.
> I wasn't fully attached to most of the EU material but what the new series gave us is a shallow replacement for some of the better material.
> The most recent series just don't make any sense for me.  The story doesn't follow rationality or unless you change the character's personalities.




When she died?


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## billd91 (Sep 1, 2019)

practicalm said:


> The loss of Mara Jade is what killed Star Wars for me.
> I wasn't fully attached to most of the EU material but what the new series gave us is a shallow replacement for some of the better material.
> The most recent series just don't make any sense for me.  The story doesn't follow rationality or unless you change the character's personalities.




I liked the Mara Jade character, but most other elements of the EU - particularly Thrawn and the Yuuzhon Vong - would put me right off. I didn't like most of the EU and was quite content they threw it off when  moving ahead with the current trilogy.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 1, 2019)

NJO almost broke it for me. 20 book series, only 3 were good, religious war theme and then 9/11 happened.


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## Hussar (Sep 2, 2019)

Deset Gled said:


> /snip
> 
> What could break Star Wars for me is the fans. People have gotten so amazingly toxic, from simple stupidity to misogyny to outright trolling, that I intentionally avoid most discussions about it. When I feel like I have something to add, my voice is mostly lost in a sea of poison.  It's mostly my kids keeping it alive for me right now, because I can have a more intelligent discussion about Stars Wars with a 5 year old than most of the internet.




This.  This right here.  This is what is breaking Star Wars for me.  The unbelievably viciousness of "fans" is just mindblowing.  The level of politicization that fans have dragged into things is ... well... @Deset Gled said it right - sea of poison.  

Y'know what?  I LIKED Solo.  Saw it with my girls and THEY liked it.  You want to know why we liked it?  Because we live in Japan and we don't have to get constantly bombarded by all the garbage spewing by inbred navel gazing trolls.  We got to watch the movie fresh.  And it was a fun movie.   Greatest ever?  Nope.  It was a fun couple of hours.

But, from what I've seen leaking out of various "fans" festering cakeholes,, you'd think that the movie had just taken a chainsaw to a box full of kittens.  

Love Star Wars.  Wish the fans would just shut their festering gobs.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 2, 2019)

Hussar said:


> This.  This right here.  This is what is breaking Star Wars for me.  The unbelievably viciousness of "fans" is just mindblowing.  The level of politicization that fans have dragged into things is ... well... @Deset Gled said it right - sea of poison.
> 
> Y'know what?  I LIKED Solo.  Saw it with my girls and THEY liked it.  You want to know why we liked it?  Because we live in Japan and we don't have to get constantly bombarded by all the *garbage spewing* by *inbred navel gazing trolls*.  We got to watch the movie fresh.  And it was a fun movie.   Greatest ever?  Nope.  It was a fun couple of hours.
> 
> ...



Does that include yourself?
Currently it really feels like you are spreading hate. That isn't really... helpful.


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## Imaculata (Sep 2, 2019)

I feel that The Last Jedi pretty much already broke this trilogy for me. It was the equivalent of a director flipping the table over, rather than following up the plot points left by the Force Awakens. And yet I am still looking forward to Rise of Skywalker. I fear that it will be hard to salvage this wreckage, but there will probably be some stuff to like.

But whether they salvage it, or ruin it, nothing could ever ruin Star Wars as a whole for me. Not even the prequels could do that. With the franchise now in Disney hands, we will surely keep seeing new Star Wars movies sporadically, and they are bound to get it right a few times. Which will continue to fuel my obsession with collecting action figures for years to come.



Hussar said:


> Y'know what?  I LIKED Solo.  Saw it with my girls and THEY liked it.




I liked it too. It was a fun adventure/heist movie, and not just fan service (like Rogue One). Maybe not sensational, but competent and entertaining.


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## Hussar (Sep 2, 2019)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Does that include yourself?
> Currently it really feels like you are spreading hate. That isn't really... helpful.




Sorry.  You're right.  It's just so incredibly frustrating though.  The bile that gets tossed out makes it so hard to have any real sympathy and it tends to drown out any actual criticisms.  Constant comparisons to "New Coke" or typical edition warring garbage like "it's like 4e" just makes me see red and I have a difficult time separating things out.

When people are driving actors off their twitter accounts with death and rape threats, never minding how that kid that played Anakin was treated by "fans", I'm just so sick of the poisonous element of the fandom that tries to pretend that they are "protecting" Star Wars when all they are doing is spewing hate.  I would rather lose those fans, to be honest.  Those fans aren't welcome in my view of what fandom should be.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Sep 2, 2019)

Hussar said:


> Sorry.  You're right.  It's just so incredibly frustrating though.  The bile that gets tossed out makes it so hard to have any real sympathy and it tends to drown out any actual criticisms.  Constant comparisons to "New Coke" or typical edition warring garbage like "it's like 4e" just makes me see red and I have a difficult time separating things out.
> 
> When people are driving actors off their twitter accounts with death and rape threats, never minding how that kid that played Anakin was treated by "fans", I'm just so sick of the poisonous element of the fandom that tries to pretend that they are "protecting" Star Wars when all they are doing is spewing hate.  I would rather lose those fans, to be honest.  Those fans aren't welcome in my view of what fandom should be.



Do you know what people did before Twitter and they could post death and rape threats to actors? 
Well, most of them did simply nothing, because writing a letter and sending it somewhere is work. And the ones that did send letters - well, most of them got probably ignored, even if the actor or actress actually read there. There was no one to pile on this nonsense and +1 or retweet it. 
But in the current world, writing stuff like that is getting you a ton of attention, so more people are doing it, because attention is... well, for some people it's really important and they do whatever it takes to get it, and if that means saying ridicilous atrocious nonsense, than that's what they do. 
Don't let it ruin your day. Or your fandom.  It wasn't the fandom or the EU that created these people. They were always there, but they didn't get the attention.

And regradless of whether we like or dislike The Last Jedi or dislike or like the old EU, we can probably agree that people could act with some human decency when discussing likes and dislikes - even in the internet, even on twitter or reddit or enworld. But we probably still have to navigate around the people that don't and do our best to not ruin our discussions.


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## Zardnaar (Sep 2, 2019)

Hussar said:


> This.  This right here.  This is what is breaking Star Wars for me.  The unbelievably viciousness of "fans" is just mindblowing.  The level of politicization that fans have dragged into things is ... well... @Deset Gled said it right - sea of poison.
> 
> Y'know what?  I LIKED Solo.  Saw it with my girls and THEY liked it.  You want to know why we liked it?  Because we live in Japan and we don't have to get constantly bombarded by all the garbage spewing by inbred navel gazing trolls.  We got to watch the movie fresh.  And it was a fun movie.   Greatest ever?  Nope.  It was a fun couple of hours.
> 
> ...




It's just click and trollbait.

I use the following for SW stuff.

Eckharts Ladder
Stupendous Wave
Thor Skywalker

Top one is more legends material and he has made some fan clips.

It's fairly simple for franchises though. Evolution not revolution. And don't do anything blatantly stupid like a Star Wars/My Little Pony cross over.


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## Kramodlog (Sep 4, 2019)

Lack of a cohesive and engaging plot and the lack of three dimensional characters. Needless to say, Star Wars has been broken for me since the prequels and the current trilogy isn't doing better. 

Maybe the first trilogy should be left alone and be savored for its qualities alone. Cause Star Wars can't be savored for the quality of the rest of the material produced since.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 4, 2019)

Personally, _The Phantom Menace_ used an AK-47on the original trilogy, nailgunned the coffin shut, dug a 60’ deep hole, and targeted the hole with a napalm strike from some F4 Phantoms.

The ads for the next movie nuked the hole from space, because that was the only way to be sure.


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## amethal (Sep 4, 2019)

Zardnaar said:


> NJO almost broke it for me. 20 book series, only 3 were good, religious war theme and then 9/11 happened.



Traitor is one of my favourite Star Wars books. 

It was even worth reading the 12 previous books for, and that is high praise indeed!


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## Zardnaar (Sep 4, 2019)

amethal said:


> Traitor is one of my favourite Star Wars books.
> 
> It was even worth reading the 12 previous books for, and that is high praise indeed!




Traitor was Elaine Cunningham iirc and she has done some of the best D&D novels. Traitor was above average for the NJO 

Troy Denning and Aaron Allston are another couple of D&D/Star Wars crossover authors. Aaron was one of the best author's.


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## Celebrim (Sep 4, 2019)

"The Force Awakens"

I'm a guy who slept on the sidewalk to get tickets to "The Phantom Menace" just for the fun of it and not because it was necessary.

But the prequel trilogy as disappointing as it was didn't break Star Wars for me. I remained a fan.

"The Force Awakens" broke Star Wars, and nothing can happen that will put it back together again.


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