# Help with killing undead?



## Gunslinger (Apr 16, 2004)

In one of the campaigns that I am curently playing in, it is clear that at some point down the line the party will be confronted with, and have to destroy, a massive undead army including high level vampires and necromancers.  In preparation for this I am searching for tools to help the party.  I would appreciate suggestions for spells, items, and feats that will let me take out either hordes of low hit dice undead or help me turn or destroy high hit dice undead.  The necromancers will most likely have the ablity to raise fallen undead by the masses, so something to keep them down permanently would be useful.   Turning will obviously be useful (I am a good aligned cleric), as will spells like Holy word and Undeath to Dead, but I doubt they will be enough.


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## shilsen (Apr 16, 2004)

I assume your PCs are high-level, if they're taking on such a challenge. Information about level, PC classes, and available wealth would be helpful in making suggestions.

For purposes of turning undead, the combo of a Phylactery of Undead Turning and a _consecrate_ spell would be great for taking out larger numbers of weak undead. For doing the same and taking out more powerful undead too, something like a _sunburst _ spell (assuming someone in the group's high enough level to cast it), which has a 20,000+ sq. ft. area, would be great.


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## Gobbo (Apr 16, 2004)

Hire some mercenaries and cast a bunch of Magic Stones, they deal 2d6+2 vs. undead and only uses a 1st level spell. Good for the lesser undead that dont get turned. If you have a Druid, they have a few spells that will be usefull too.


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## Gunslinger (Apr 16, 2004)

The average level in the party is 12 right now.  Permanent party members include a level 14 Force Mage prestige class wizard (ability to substite force for any damage type, bonuses to damage on each die with spells like fireball), a level 10 paladin/monk/Knight of the Left Hand who specializes in grappling (with the help of a ring which increases his size up to 2 categories), level 12 cleric focused mostly on healing and preventative magic, and a level 11 Half-dragon fighter who is specialized in melee combat.  We have a bunch of fighters and another cleric who join us whenever their players can make the game.  We have about average wealth, going by the dmg tables.

[Edit] I don't know if the 3.0 version of sunburst was different, but in my 3.5 PHB the area of effect says 80 ft. radius.  It would still be a great spell to use, but unfortunately not with an absurd area of effect.  

Also, the DM will accept nearly any published material, so suggestions from outside the core books are also welcome.


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## Chupacabra (Apr 16, 2004)

Do not forget that vampires can summon swarms or packs of wolves, rats, bats, etc.  While individually not a big deal, they can delay and harass your party (especially spellcasters) when appearing in large groups.  You don't want your mage's counterspell of the necromancer's Symbol of Pain spoiled by nearby wolf taking an attack of opportunity.  Perhaps when you are selecting your final spell line-up keep a slot or two open for some anti-vermin (see Repel Vermin spell) or anti-animal (good ol' Fireball or Cone of Cold)  spells, even spells that do not affect the undead but are still useful for dealing with large numbers of weak critters such as these.  Consider Cloudkill for example.

If you don't want to blow higher level spell slots for these direct-action, consider lower level spells that will delay or discomfit this kind of swarm attack: e.g. Fear, Rainbow Pattern, Wind Wall.  All can disrupt a concentrated swarm attack and buy you time.

Speaking of buying time, if you know you will be facing hordes of undead, consider spells that will enable you to control the landscape of the battle and prevent an overwhelming number of baddies from reaching you all at once.  Consider Move Earth, Soften Earth and Stone, Transmute Rock to Mud, or the various "Wall of ..." spells to shape the battlefield temporarily or permanently.  Create chokepoints the horde has to pass through or create safe havens where you cannot be flaked from.

Think of ways you can bypass the irritating low-level cannon fodder undead / vermin and get to the necromancers & vampires who will truly be hurting you with spells cast from behind their wall of lowbie allies.  Look at Air Walk, Fly, Alter Self (for wings), or Dimension Door.  Anything to get you face to face with the bad-guy spellcasters. The undead army can't be re-raised if its leaders are killed first.  

Good luck!


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## Piratecat (Apr 16, 2004)

Take leadership - and get a hunter of the dead as your cohort.


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## Scion (Apr 16, 2004)

If your dm is sick in the head, Celestial Brilliance. Have everyone carry around 5 or 6 of these suckers all empowered (6th level spell slot, extended if you can swing it).

Undead? what undead?


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## isoChron (Apr 16, 2004)

How can Necromancers re-use destroyed undead ?
I always thought undead, once destroyed (killed sounds somehow wrong  ), can't be raised again. So the Necromancer could control many undead and raise undead from fallen living creature. But no undead recycling as far as I know.

Useful spells against huge hordes of undead:
Sunbeam
Sunburst 
Undeath to Death
Undeath Eternal Foe
Searing Light
Heal
Mass Heal

Get the help of a high level Lathander Cleric, boost CHA and give him an amulett of undead turning.

Get holy ghost touch undead bane weapons.
Get weapons of disruption.

Feats:
Extra Turning
Empower Turning (for many low HD Undead)
Heighten Turning (for few high HD Undead)


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## shilsen (Apr 16, 2004)

Gunslinger said:
			
		

> [Edit] I don't know if the 3.0 version of sunburst was different, but in my 3.5 PHB the area of effect says 80 ft. radius.  It would still be a great spell to use, but unfortunately not with an absurd area of effect.




20,000+ square feet is _not_ an absurd enough area of effect for you?


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## G.A. Donis (Apr 16, 2004)

An 80 ft. radius covers 20,106 sq. ft. so it sounds like there wasn't any real change, just a rewording.  If you haven't already taken it you might want to consider extra turning.  It probably won't swing the outcome of the battle in your favor, but having a couple more turn attempts sure won't hurt.

Could anything be done with mass quantities of holy water?  Either purchased or created throught a Create Water and Bless Water combination?


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## Thanee (Apr 16, 2004)

Pick the nastiest of the mindless undead with _command undead_ (PHB 3.5 wizard spell) and let them fight each other. 

_Undeath to death_ (PHB 3.5 wizard spell) is a pretty good spell as well.

_Shroud of undeath_ (PGtF / MoF wizard spell) can be very helpful, too.

 Against vampires, empowered or maximized _searing light_ (PHB 3.5 cleric spell) is great, but you'll have to deal with finding them while they are recovering, once they flee in gaseous form.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Lamoni (Apr 16, 2004)

Giving the party all potions of hide from undead would be useful also.  You can all use one potion to give yourselves good tactical position and a surprise round at the beginning and save a second potion for the off chance that things turn bad.  It would allow you to take a time-out for several rounds where you could heal yourselves up and maybe cast a restoration or two for any lost levels.


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## Nail (Apr 16, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Pick the nastiest of the mindless undead with _command undead_ (PHB 3.5 wizard spell) and let them fight each other.



Key in on this suggestion....and check out the 2nd level spell with _*NO*_ HD cap that lasts for _days_ per level!


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## Nail (Apr 16, 2004)

Another suggestion: Don't attack the army, silly.  

Another suggestion: Use the vampire's minions to spy on them.  Low level HD UD have terrible will saves...and are perfect candidates for _Scry_ spell, or the like.  Imagine scrying a wraith, for example, as it cruises around the BBEG's fortress......or even scrying on the bats that hover about the BBEG's head.....you could learn some fun stuff that way.


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## Speaks With Stone (Apr 16, 2004)

I found a number of druid spells to be very handy against hordes of mindless undead.  Spike stones, Briar Web, Insect Plague - all do a little bit of damage to a very wide area.  If the undead are marching through that area and you say hit them with Briar Webs and an Insect Plague - they could take out vast numbers of the undead.  This works best against mindless undead and if you can keep the enemy leaders off balance so they can't stop the undead from destroying themselves.

Druids can be brutal on a battle field.  Large area effect spells that can prep the battle field with things like Plant Growth to slow movement - this maximizes the damage missle attacks can have by giving your archers more attacks while the enemy creeps forward.  Spike Growth and Spike Stones are virtually invisible until the enemy hits them.  If they are being shot full of arrows, the leadership may not realize that its not just the arrows shooting up his horde, but the spikes chewing them up from below as well.


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## Nail (Apr 16, 2004)

WEll heck, if yer bringing a druid: Fire Storm.


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## Epametheus (Apr 16, 2004)

The 3.0E area on Sunburst was 10 ft. radius/level (so 150 ft. radius as soon as you can get the spell).  My archmage with mastery of shaping loved that spell.

Celestial elephants to trample large chunks of the horde, fire elementals to burn through it, air elementals to vacuum it up....  Crushing the mook undead force is both fun _and_ easy.

Hell, you're a L12 cleric.  Look at the Planar Ally spells.  A ghaele or a trumpet archon could be just as good at chewing up the undead as anyone else in your party.

Searing light and Sunray will obliterate the elite undead.  Blade barriers also have a certain charm.


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## Gunslinger (Apr 16, 2004)

Thanks for all the suggestions, including those that address situations and possibilities I hadn't even considered!

1)What books are Celestial Brilliance and Undeath Eternal Foe from?

2)I don't know what prestige class the enemy necromancers get their powers from, but I presume if they can re-rez undead it will only be the ones killed by non-magical means.

3)I'm on spring break, so my brain is on power save mode.  Hence it didn't readily occur to me that an 80 foot radius translates into 20,106 sq. ft.


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## Gunslinger (Apr 17, 2004)

Can anyone tell me which sources those two spells are from? :\


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## Steve Jung (Apr 17, 2004)

_Undeath's Eternal Foe_ is Clr9 from_ Magic of Faerûn._ It's updated to 3.5ed in_ Player's Guide to Faerûn,_ but officially restricted to clerics of Lathander who take the Initiate of Lathander feat. Not sure about_ Celestial Brilliance._


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## Alduk (Apr 19, 2004)

Where else would Cellestial Brilliance be, with such a suggestive name? From Book of Exalted Deeds, of course! 

That spell is just insane. As Clr 4, Glory 4 and Sor'Wiz 4, nothing but the most powerful undead might exist in a world where the DM allowed that spell.


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## Black Knight Irios (Apr 20, 2004)

Other nice spells are:
_Holy Word_, pretty good spell to take care of great bunches of low level enemies, alive or undead
_Holy Smite_, especially if an evil outsider will show up as well
Various _Summon Monster/Nature's Ally_ Spells, use your own bunch against their stupid undead
evade the hordes at all, attack the Necros and Vampires cut the horde off with _wall of force_.


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## jerichothebard (Apr 20, 2004)

And don't forget the power of _Silence_ dropped on top of the enemy spellcasters!  A simple, old-fashioned tactic, but really annoying...

Also, if you anticipate being hammered by long-range offensive spells, counterspelling and readied actions to magic missile spellcasters (thus forcing concentration checks) can be life-savers.


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## Scion (Apr 20, 2004)

celestial brilliance.. lets just say this, and trying to go too far into nonopen gaming content.

Duration: insane. Getting it to last more than a month per casting is not hard.

area: huge.

Damage to undead: per round, enough to kill a vampire, eventually, with his fast healing 5.

how does that sound?


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## BSF (Apr 20, 2004)

Keep in mind that Sunburst is not a small spell.  You are looking for a carpet bomb or tactical nuke affect if you want to take out a very large area of undead.  This is why you want to control the terrain and hit them when they are at a chokepoint.  

It is also important to clarify your objectives beforehand.  If you are on the offensive, you are really trying to drive in and get to the bad guys at the core.  Toward that end, you want to open up a pathway, run down it, take out the Vampires & Necromancers, then retreat.  Take out the mindless, easy undead after the primary threat has been eliminated.  

If you are on the defensive, you still have the same basic goal.  You don't want to blow your heavy artillery on a bunch of skeletons and zombies.  However, on the defensive, you have more flexibility setting up terrain to your advantage.  In this case, the PC's should be primarily responsible for watching where the big guys are staging from.  Then, they should be hitting that area.  

Again, 12th level PC's should not be focused on killing the cannon fodder.  You are the elite forces that need to take out the enemy commanders.  Then, when that is all done, you turn to the cannon fodder with whatever is left.


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