# When revised, should the Hero class now be called the Superhero?



## RangerWickett (Nov 17, 2002)

Because we want FCTF to be compatible with D20 Modern as well as D&D, I'm wondering if having the class just be called 'Hero' might be a little confusing.  D20 Modern uses classes called Strong Hero, Fast Hero, Smart Hero, etc., so I'm thinking 'Super Hero' or 'Superhero' might be a better name.

Of course, I'd prefer something that didn't conjure up images of spandex-clad cheesecake women and beefcake men, so if any of you have a suggestion, I'd welcome it.

And no, we won't use Champion, Sentinel, Mutants, or Masterminds.  Don't want to offend our competitors.  

Bear in mind, this is just me testing the waters, and is not an official change yet.


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## Blacksad (Nov 17, 2002)

Improved Hero
Increased Hero
Gifted
Epic Hero
Stunt Folk
Stupefying
Cool Hero


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## Alzrius (Nov 17, 2002)

Im going to go with the name "Superhero" as one word. Just going with "Super Hero" sort of implies its better than the other classes. I agree with the sentiment that there must be a better name, but for the life of me (and a check through dictionary.com's thesaurus) I can't think of one that adequately conveys what you're going for. Blacksad's names are okay, but I just don't see them as being taken seriously at best, and being misinterpreted (Epic Hero) at worst.

On a related note...what else are you guys going to change for d20 Modern? There seems to be quite a bit different between FCTF and d20 Modern, such as the core classes in FCTF being 20 levels, and the ones in d20 Modern being 10 levels. Is this change in anyway related to what you said before about trying to make FCTF the "official" superhero supplement to d20 Modern? Will people who already have the current version of FCTF get the "upgraded" version you're making?


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## Malacoda (Nov 17, 2002)

If you want to avoid upsetting the competition you should probably not use "super hero", which is trademarked jointly by DC and Marvel. A quick search of the Trademark office, though, seems to indicate that "superhero" is not, so that might be the best choice.

And since my question was not addressed in the previous thread I started, maybe I should ask it here (semi-quoted):

Now that d20 Modern is out, how long before we can expect to see the conversion information that was mentioned? Perhaps a 2.0 on FCtF might be in order, since I think some of the powers might need an overhaul, since 3e and d20 modern balance differently. 

For example, DR in 3e is hard to come by for most characters.  A barbarian gets 1/— at 11th level. A Tough Hero in D20M can get it by 3rd level. So, it seems like in d20 Modern buying DR should have a different model. Same kind of thing with the energy resistance stuff.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 17, 2002)

I think our current plan is to integrate the original idea of the Big Book of Super Powers into a revised version of FCTF which should probably reach 150 pages or more.  I know Russ handles the distribution end of things, though I'm not sure if he's able to provide discounts to people who have already bought the original, or if we'll have to put out some sort of patch, or what.

As far as date.  We're shooting for getting the revised FCTF done by late December.


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## Lizard (Nov 17, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Because we want FCTF to be compatible with D20 Modern as well as D&D, I'm wondering if having the class just be called 'Hero' might be a little confusing.  D20 Modern uses classes called Strong Hero, Fast Hero, Smart Hero, etc., so I'm thinking 'Super Hero' or 'Superhero' might be a better name.
> *




Empowered Hero
Enhanced Hero


BTW, if the original FCTF was 100 pages, and the BBOP was scehduled to be 100 pages, I will confess disappointment that the combined book will be about 150 pages.


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## justinsluder (Nov 17, 2002)

To simplify things I've changed the Hero class to Super, and Hero Points are now called Super Points.

Just what I've done.

- Justin Sluder


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## Moon_Goddess (Nov 17, 2002)

I love the system of d20 modern having only the 6 base classes, as such I'm loathe to add another base class.    

Will you be adding an option to make the Hero Class (or SuperHero) an advanced class? 

Or better yet and option for doing without the Hero class at all.   I know there are options for this in the book, but they seem rather watered down.


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## RangerWickett (Nov 17, 2002)

Well, we could just use simple Level Adjustment.  Divide your total Hero Points by 8, and you have that many equivalent levels.  And that can work, but from the perspective of terminology, actually having a class is simpler.

Which is easier to say:

"Zidi is a 1st level fighter with 8 equivalent levels of super powers."

or

"Zidi is a 1st level fighter, 8th level Superhero."



Superhero wouldn't work as an advanced class because of logical reasons.  Advanced classes all require some sort of training or knowledge before you can enter them, but even a baby can have superpowers, at least in stories.  It wouldn't make any sense that you'd have to be a 3rd level Smart Hero before you can gain the ability to shoot energy blasts.

I'm considering making Superhero a class only in name.  It would have 20 levels so that you could determine how powerful your character is for purposes of assigning challenges, but I might just give it Hero Points, and not base attack bonus, saves, or hit points.  

However, I'm reminded that in D20 Modern, they say that, sure, most expert scientists (Smart Hero 10) wouldn't have the equivalent of a +5 base attack bonus, but in D20 Modern they do, because it fits with the heroic feel of the game.

I think it'd be best to keep it as is, since taking out BAB and saves would require adding more HrPs, which forces us to rebalance power costs and edit the sample characters.  That wouldn't be fun.


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## Malacoda (Nov 18, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Well, we could just use simple Level Adjustment.  Divide your total Hero Points by 8, and you have that many equivalent levels.  And that can work, but from the perspective of terminology, actually having a class is simpler.



Personally, I like the idea of both avenues of approach. A number of hero points per +1 ECL, then one or more classes that offer hero points. The origin and the evolution. ECLs allow a player to create the origin of the super hero, then classes allow them to shape their powers and skills over levels. This also seems like an additional tool to allow the GM to control advancement of powers in his own games. Some games may use only one approach or the other, or mix the two. Mutants seem like a prime example where this style would work.


> Which is easier to say:
> 
> "Zidi is a 1st level fighter with 8 equivalent levels of super powers."
> 
> ...



 This doesn't strike me as a big deal. There are already races with ECL, and they are essentially the same thing.


> Superhero wouldn't work as an advanced class because of logical reasons.  Advanced classes all require some sort of training or knowledge before you can enter them, but even a baby can have superpowers, at least in stories.  It wouldn't make any sense that you'd have to be a 3rd level Smart Hero before you can gain the ability to shoot energy blasts.



I agree, but I do think that advanced classes based on the ECL idea would work.


> I'm considering making Superhero a class only in name.  It would have 20 levels so that you could determine how powerful your character is for purposes of assigning challenges, but I might just give it Hero Points, and not base attack bonus, saves, or hit points.



This is essentially how I see the ECL origin concept working.  


> I think it'd be best to keep it as is, since taking out BAB and saves would require adding more HrPs, which forces us to rebalance power costs and edit the sample characters.  That wouldn't be fun. [/B]



Won't you have to edit the modern characters anyway?


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## RangerWickett (Nov 18, 2002)

You little demon you, that's a cool idea.  Hmm.  I'll have to bring it up with Russ.  Two distinct ways to get powers, one which provides no BAB, saves, or HP, the other a class that you could advance in which would probably provide fewer HrPs comparably.  Nice idea.  I like it.


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## Morrus (Nov 18, 2002)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *You little demon you, that's a cool idea.  Hmm.  I'll have to bring it up with Russ.  Two distinct ways to get powers, one which provides no BAB, saves, or HP, the other a class that you could advance in which would probably provide fewer HrPs comparably.  Nice idea.  I like it. *




I'm not going to say anything.

OK, I will.

I HAD THAT ORIGINALLY!!!!!  YOU PERSUADED ME TO REMOVE IT!

Grrr......


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## RangerWickett (Nov 18, 2002)

He phrased his better.  And, as you know, with age comes wisdom.  What really made me like his idea is that one would be distinctly used for powers you have innately, while the other is used for powers you gain or increase while adventuring.  Hmm.

But see, now I'm reminded again why I was opposed to it originally.  Say you're 10th level and you get a personal meeting with God.  God says, "As long as you don't cut your hair, you'll be super strong."  Do you gain the innate super power abilities, or do you just gain a bunch of levels of Superhero?

Better to keep one mechanic, now that I think about it.  Less confusion.


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## Alzrius (Nov 18, 2002)

I agree with the idea of "one system, less confusion." Personally, I like the (super)hero class the way it is now. You get most of what other classes do (save for skills), but less of it (the bad saves, low BAB, low hit points, no weapon/armor proficiencies), with the Hero points making up for that.

Taking away the hit points, BAB, and low saves, and it is effectively nothing but an ECL increase. No one will pay experience points for that...especially not at higher levels when it takes more and more experience to earn a level. 

Using powers the way the templates present already add a good way of introducing them as purely ECLs. I say if it aint broke, dont fix it.


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## Malacoda (Nov 18, 2002)

> Say you're 10th level and...




First, let me offer a counter-example, a theoretical d20 Modern game...

The group starts out with 1st level characters who would be inclined to investigate reports of odd people and creatures showing off strange powers. Cops, investigative reporterts, amateur paranormalists, and so on. They trace them back to a biotech company, and find that the company is doing government work into ability enhancement genetic research. They also find many other people are looking into it. The CEO of the company lets it slip that something went awry and calls a meeting of all the investigators, because they need some help cleaning up. Turns out the CEO is a powerful telepath (due to their own research), who plans on wiping their winds. An accident happens, though, and the latest batch of superhuman serum escapes into the ventilation system and everyone is cleared out except the CEO and the 50 odd people he brought in to mindwipe. The result is most of the people in the room are mutated and gain superhuman powers, barring the 10 or so that die from it. These are the first real batch of superhumans in the world, and some become villians and some become heroes.

The GM plans on everyone in the room gaining a template of powers. Essentially, most people, including the PCs, will gain one major power and 3 or so minor powers, covered by approximately 24 hero points. But, unless it makes sense for their powers, they do not become tougher, faster, more capable of attack or of evading attacks. In other words, no BAB, no hit points, no defense bonus and no save improvement. Those things just don’t make sense for this templated approach. Just because you gained the ability the read the minds of others and create a telekinetic shield doesn’t mean you should also become tougher and more able to shoot someone with a gun. Is this best served by spontaneous class levels? This is what the ECL approach covers.

The GM has also decided that these powers can be increased over time, as the characters learn to use them to their fullest potential, and the genetic alteration continues to run its course. Since these enhancements cover training and advancement, it is best served via class levels, which also grant save HD, saves and BAB, and skill points.

The origin and evolution. Origin is covered via ECLs, evolution via class levels.




> Say you're 10th level and you get a personal meeting with God. God says, "As long as you don't cut your hair, you'll be super strong." Do you gain the innate super power abilities, or do you just gain a bunch of levels of Superhero?




Easy. To me, this is a template, and templates work best with ECLs. This situation doesn’t sound like it would grant hit dice, BAB, defense bonus or other class-based benefits.

Now, some situations might not be so cut and dried, but I still think with with the vast majority of super characters you can draw a line between origin and evolution. Some will have no origin, just evolution. Batman seems like a clear example. He is going to have levels of several standard classes, several advance classes, and one or more super classes to cover some of his extreme, larger-than-life abilities. He never had an “origin” package with ECLs. But, someone like Cyclops would. His origin is obvious, a mutant template that gives him his optic blast. His evolution is a number of normal and advanced classes, plus perhaps a few levels of a super class to show more power in his optic blast plus some comic-book style combat training. 




> Better to keep one mechanic, now that I think about it. Less confusion.




Confusion for whom? D20 anything is not a simple system. It’s not Champions or Rolemaster, but it also certainly isn’t Over the Edge or Ghostbusters. I really don’t think a split concept is going to be a problem for any real d20 fan. They are already used to picking and choosing races, classes, feats and prestige classes. If they can grok the point system for powers, I don’t see some rules for ECL being added to mix sending anyone over the edge into confusion. It has to be well written, but that’s not a problem, right? 

FCtF is designed as a toolkit for d20 super heroes, and when it comes to toolkits, more options is a good thing. If all options are clearly detailed and explained, I don’t really see it being all that confusing. FCtF already outlines various approaches to starting and advancing super heroes, so adding comments on using ECLs, classes or both shouldn’t be too tough. Adding the ECL approach gives more flexibility, and gives the GM more tools to work with. This also allows FCtF to work as a racial or template construction system, where the current version adds too much baggage to make that feasible. 

Plus, adding the ECL concept doesn’t necessarily require removing the previous method. I think there _should_ be one or more generic super hero classes. Personally, I would like to see more, but I may very well be in the minority on that one. I think super versions of the standard classes would be cool (Tough Super Hero, Strong Super Hero, etc.), with BAB, Defense, saves and skills. No bonus feats and slower talent progression, but a few hero points each level. 

But that’s just my opinion. I could be wrong.


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## Malacoda (Nov 19, 2002)

After I mentioned making super versions of the basic d20 Modern classes I took a look at them again and realized that there really isn’t much wiggle room for adding hero points. So, instead, for games were the GM wanted to use ECLs then limit advancement in powers and didn’t want to use the Hero class, another option is a feat:

*Extra Hero Points*
_Prerequisites:_ 1 or more powers gained from hero points.
_Benefit:_ You gain 2 hero points. These points can be spent immediately or saved and used later, though only when you advance a level. 
_Special:_ Remember that you cannot spend more hero points than level + 3 on any one power. The GM may place limitations on how these hero points are spent.

In a superhero game this feat could be a bonus class feat for all the basic classes. Plus, it could be taken as a normal feat selection as well.


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## garyh (Nov 20, 2002)

Back to the original question, how about...

Four Color Hero?


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## novyet (Nov 22, 2002)

Another vote for Superhero or maybe Comic Hero, or even just keeping it as hero.


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## Blacksad (Nov 22, 2002)

I really like the "Four Color Hero" idea!


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## Great Cthulhu (Nov 22, 2002)

"Four Color Hero" gets my vote as well.

Question I have is about d20 Modern and Defense. Is the Hero class going to altered to include a Defense rating as well? I mean you get BAB, why not Defense? Every modern class has some level of it.

Thanks


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## MDSnowman (Dec 6, 2002)

All of the above are good ideas but you've got to think of people scrawling it on a character sheet. It needs to be a pretty basic name (that's why Hero used to work so well). So I say instead of calling it the Super Hero class simply call it the Super class.


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## Blacksad (Dec 6, 2002)

Something short like Initiate of the Order of the Bow  ?

My character sheets are A4 sized and if I need to squeeze the class name on a stat block FCH will be just fine.


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Dec 20, 2002)

Just "Power" would work. Fighter 4/Power 4, for instance, and you could either call it "4th level Power" or "four levels of Power."


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