# Heroes Season [Volume] 2 (#34)---12/03/07-'POWERLESS' Mid-Season Finale (or the End)



## Truth Seeker (Dec 3, 2007)

*Star:*  Milo Ventimiglia (Peter Petrelli),  David Anders (Adam Monroe),  Kristen Bell (Elle Bishop),  Ali Larter (Niki Sanders),  Dania Ramirez (Maya Herrera),  Noah Gray-Cabey (Micah Sanders),  Dana Davis (Monica Dawson),  Zachary Quinto (Sylar),  Adrian Pasdar (Nathan Petrelli),  Greg Grunberg (Matt Parkman),  Masi Oka (Hiro Nakamura),  Hayden Panettiere (Claire Bennet),  Jack Coleman (Noah Bennet)  
*
Recurring Role*:  Stephen Tobolowsky (Bob Bishop),  Shalim Ortiz (Alejandro Herrera),  Adair Tishler (Molly Walker)  

*Guest Star*:  Nichelle Nichols (Nana Dawson),  Carlon Jeffrey (Damon Dawson)  


In Texas, Peter faces off against former friends due to Adam’s misleading story about the Shanti virus. Micah enlists the help of his mother to rescue Monica. Maya is shocked when she learns the truth about her new friend Sylar. Elle tries extremely hard to please her father, Bob.​


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 4, 2007)

Okie dokie then, I'm done.

Perhaps I'll read some reviews of next "season" to see if it doesn't suck.

I was hoping for a good episode, or at least a good resolution/ending to cap the show, but resolution is not a strong suit I suppose.

I won't even bother with nit-picking the episode.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Dec 4, 2007)

Well, to give the other point of view, I loved it.

A vast improvement over the somewhat 'eh' rest of the season.

And yeah, there are holes and oddities in the plot here and there, but it really feels to me as if I'm watching a comic book on screen. That's what I love about Heroes. It isn't perfect, the characters do stupid things and the plots do very odd things(especially resolutions), but that's all pretty normal in comics. For me, its what makes Heroes even better rather than taking away from it.


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 4, 2007)

For me, I stopped reading comic books long ago for such reasons, and expected better from a TV show.


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## Silver Moon (Dec 4, 2007)

Found it good but it seemed a bit too rushed at the end - looking forward to the next season, enjoyed this one very much.


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 4, 2007)

Yes, Heroes is very comic book. I guess you either like that or you don't.

I enjoyed it over all. Although I was very disappointed to see Nikki go. I know she wasn't the most popular character, but I liked her.


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## Valerian (Dec 4, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Although I was very disappointed to see Nikki go. I know she wasn't the most popular character, but I liked her.




Well last week I called Nikki and Maya; really didn't expect Nathan's assassination, wow.  His mom really is a cold hearted *$%%@.

Hiro dumping Adam in the grave was awesome.  That is actually a whole hell of a lot less humane than just killing the guy.

Valerian


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## CrusaderX (Dec 4, 2007)

Not the best episode, not the worst, but the possibility of seeing Elle as a real hero in the next chapter made me happy.   Is Kristen Bell now a regular on the show?


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## Umbran (Dec 4, 2007)

*sigh*.    

I think what Hiro did makes him less a hero.  He could have been merciful, and he wasn't.  That's sad.

And I preferred Sylar the way he was in Volume 2.  He was a far more interesting character.  I am not looking forward to him in Volume 3, to be honest.


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 4, 2007)

Valerian said:
			
		

> Well last week I called Nikki and Maya; really didn't expect Nathan's assassination, wow.  His mom really is a cold hearted *$%%@.
> 
> Hiro dumping Adam in the grave was awesome.  That is actually a whole hell of a lot less humane than just killing the guy.
> 
> Valerian



Yeah. I was the other way, I called Nathan but was certain Nikki would survive.

The grave bit was just _evil_. Of course it leaves a door open for him to escape, although 'technically' once he runs out of oxygen he should, well cease to function at least.


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 4, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *sigh*.
> 
> I think what Hiro did makes him less a hero.  He could have been merciful, and he wasn't.  That's sad.
> 
> And I preferred Sylar the way he was in Volume 2.  He was a far more interesting character.  I am not looking forward to him in Volume 3, to be honest.



Oh, i would have been far less merciful than Hiro was. I mean Adam killed his _father_.

Totally agree with you about Sylar though.


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## Shalimar (Dec 4, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Oh, i would have been far less merciful than Hiro was. I mean Adam killed his _father_.
> 
> Totally agree with you about Sylar though.




I was hoping Sylar would have to start collecting powers over again instead of just picking up where he left off.


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## Alzrius (Dec 4, 2007)

I loved this ending! After a slow start, the second half of this entire season was an upswing, and this did very nicely! Sure it felt rushed, but it had to resolve a lot of plot threads - it certainly kept me on the edge of my seat in doing so!

Hiro's way of disposing of Kensai was dark, which was an excellent showing of the more ruthless potential we know he has (a la Future Hiro). He apparently didn't know that Adam could be killed by a hit to the brain, so he opted for eternal confinement...it's cold, and even cruel, but that's what we know Hiro is capable of. And of course, in true comic books style (I personally love that style of storytelling) it leaves room for Adam to come back later!

I wasn't sad to see Nikki go, but I miss Nathan already! He and Peter worked very well together on screen, and the way Nathan's character was evolving was damn interesting to watch. Adrian Pasdar is a great actor, and the hole from his absence is going to be hard to fill.

Speaking of great actors, I'm so glad I was wrong and that Sylar didn't kill Elle. She's starting to really come into her own as a character, and I can't wait to see more of her. The questions are really just beginning to come into the open for her, and she has a lot of growing to do.

And Sylar...I'm giddy to see him back to his old self. He's one of the coolest villains we've seen in a while, and now, as he said, he's back! The superhero serial killer returns!

I can't wait for the next arc, "Villains"! Bad guys are my favorite part of comic books, and the preview we saw, of Sylar's powers restored, promises that it'll be the best season so far!


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## Steel_Wind (Dec 4, 2007)

The grave was a little nasty - but Hiro had his reasons. It's not as if Adam didn't deserve it.

I thought a better ending would have been to *have Hiro and Adam appear in a jungle.*

_Adam: Carp! Where are we?
Hiro: You wanted to be the last man left alive?You win. The last - and the first... Adam. 
Adam: Where are we, damn it?
Hiro: North Dakota.
Adam: *Looks around* This isn't North Dakota!
Hiro: It is. You asked where. You didn't ask "when". *Adjusts glasses* Perhaps time and loneliness will teach you compassion. Don't worry - if you last - in about 65 million years,  you will meet your Eve.
**RAWR** in the background. T-REX FOOTFALLS GETTING CLOSER, BRANCHES SNAPPING AND MOVING.
Adam: CARP!!
**RAWRRRRRRR!!!!!**
Hiro: Goodbye, Takezo Kensei._

*BAMF*


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## Rystil Arden (Dec 4, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> The grave was a little nasty - but Hiro had his reasons. It's not as if Adam didn't deserve it.
> 
> I thought a better ending would have been to *have Hiro and Adam appear in a jungle.*
> 
> ...



 I thought of that but realised that it's no good--Kensei is immortal, that just gives him millions of years to become more powerful.  Then I thought Hiro might have sent Kensei to the distant post-apocalyptic future when Earth was all used up.  Or he could have done the most evil thing that anyone ever did to anyone in the whole show, what Peter did to Caitlin and was planning to do to her (he left her in a future that he destroyed, so now she no longer even exists, and yet, that was his plan all along--why didn't he ask Hiro to retrieve her first?)


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## Steel_Wind (Dec 4, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I thought of that but realised that it's no good--Kensei is immortal, that just gives him millions of years to become more powerful.




Except, knowing the world unfolds as it has, Hiro would know that Adam did not survive into the era of recorded history. His presence in history would have been too easy to detect.  The implication is that Adam could not survive his loneliness - and would have ended his own life. (makeshift guillotine, head in T-Rex's mouth, etc.)

Hiro and the viewer knows this - as human history unfolds without Kensei in it. 

Adam would have been lost in time...and retrievable from the past - if need be.


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## DonTadow (Dec 4, 2007)

Bah, not the best episode in the world but then again i'm glad I"m not a fair weather fan. i was enterained even if i am yelling at the screen at how stupid mohinder is this season and how dumb peter is.  If peter wants to know something, he has shown that he can control the telepathy power.  You got three people from your past, who helped you save the world, one of which is your brother, and you trust this guy you knew for five minutes.  

Still confused aboutthe haitians powers. He obvioulsy did iquick, but doesn't his power normally take memories forever.  So i am confused as to whatpeter does and doesnt remember.  (Though i am sure that the mom in the future did something to negate the hatian's powers)
Whereas someone said they were speeding things up i feltthey were draggin g things out. In the real world this episode was a half hour and peter listens to hiro and parkman or telepathy's adam .  Then again, maybe there is a scene on the cutting room floor that says that adam is has encountered mind readers for a long time and knows how to blank his mind out or trick the power.  This would make sense considering he was controlling parkman's dad. 

Back to mohinder . He feels evil. He sacraficed many, many people's lives for mia and his own.  Twin #2 is still alive, not happy about that, she's just as stupid. Where the heck would her brother go. Back to mexico?  

Wonder did HRG's hiring come with a new position. He'll have enemies considering he killed an agent.  

I like that the next series is named villians.  I see electrogirl, sylar and peter's girlfriend as villian. Thats right peters girlfriend. She is a victim of an enigma. Trapped in a time that doesnot exist.  What kind of powers come with that.  Sylar will have to die the next time they take him out. He is going to go after the cheerleader hard now, or find adam monroe. Wonder did he take the files onadam monroe when he took the medication.  

Only heroes can lose people who are a few steps ahead of them

BTW hiro is not evil.l HE does not know what kills kensai. As a matter of fact he saw him blow up to pieces and reform so the only thing he can think of is to imprisson him.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Dec 4, 2007)

The characters have all become morons, which is another way of saying they have forgotten everything they have learned and being inconsistent. 

But Adam's burial in the grave of one of his victims has a nice full-circle feel to it.


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Bah, not the best episode in the world but then again i'm glad I"m not a fair weather fan. i was enterained even if i am yelling at the screen at how stupid mohinder is this season and how dumb peter is.  If peter wants to know something, he has shown that he can control the telepathy power.  You got three people from your past, who helped you save the world, one of which is your brother, and you trust this guy you knew for five minutes.
> 
> Still confused aboutthe haitians powers. He obvioulsy did iquick, but doesn't his power normally take memories forever.  So i am confused as to whatpeter does and doesnt remember.  (Though i am sure that the mom in the future did something to negate the hatian's powers)
> Whereas someone said they were speeding things up i feltthey were draggin g things out. In the real world this episode was a half hour and peter listens to hiro and parkman or telepathy's adam .  Then again, maybe there is a scene on the cutting room floor that says that adam is has encountered mind readers for a long time and knows how to blank his mind out or trick the power.  This would make sense considering he was controlling parkman's dad.




Seems like you've missed some episodes. Peter has known Adam for more than five minutes. He's been his sole confidant for months now, and--more importantly--has been the only person in the know to earn Peter's trust. He may love Nathan more, but he doesn't side with Adam out of love, but rather because he seems to have good intel. The Company has indeed been sitting on top of a super-virus.

Adam taught Peter how to recover his memories using his regenerative powers.

If Grandma Patrelli can shield her mind from telepathy, it's likely that all of the old-school heroes can.

Having said that, most of the characters in Heroes are indeed inexcusably incapable of connecting the dots. Mohinder has failed to develop into a worthwhile character. He should've been bumped off a long time ago, but tonight would have been good too. On top of not being an actual hero, he's also been consistently stupide and no longer has any excuse for being so naive. He's basically a damsel in distress.


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> Except, knowing the world unfolds as it has, Hiro would know that Adam did not survive into the era of recorded history. His presence in history would have been too easy to detect.  The implication is that Adam could not survive his loneliness - and would have ended his own life. (makeshift guillotine, head in T-Rex's mouth, etc.)
> 
> Hiro and the viewer knows this - as human history unfolds without Kensei in it.
> 
> Adam would have been lost in time...and retrievable from the past - if need be.



But it's been shown that the future is not immutable. So, Adam goes nuts in the past and makes sure that mankind never evolves, or does so with him at the top of the heap.


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I wasn't sad to see Nikki go, but I miss Nathan already! He and Peter worked very well together on screen, and the way Nathan's character was evolving was damn interesting to watch. Adrian Pasdar is a great actor, and the hole from his absence is going to be hard to fill.



Well, he didn't get hit with a head shot (by Bennet, no doubt). Peter just pumps some healing juice into him and he's good to go.



> And Sylar...I'm giddy to see him back to his old self. He's one of the coolest villains we've seen in a while, and now, as he said, he's back! The superhero serial killer returns!



Sylar's played out. As a villain, he has no real personality or motivation other than "me want more powers".


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Yes, Heroes is very comic book. I guess you either like that or you don't.
> 
> I enjoyed it over all. Although I was very disappointed to see Nikki go. I know she wasn't the most popular character, but I liked her.



Did we get to see a body?

No body, not dead. That's comic book to a tee.


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## Goobermunch (Dec 4, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Okie dokie then, I'm done.
> 
> Perhaps I'll read some reviews of next "season" to see if it doesn't suck.
> 
> ...




Well, given that this is, quite possibly, the last episode of Heroes we'll ever see, I don't know that there's much hope.

Writers' strikes are usually a death knell for shows in a current (at the time of the strike) line up.  I think the reason we had two volumes scheduled this year was that they suspected they wouldn't be able to run an entire season.  As it turns out, they were right.

Too bad.  This volume would have made a pretty good season if they'd done the whole thing.

--G


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> Well, given that this is, quite possibly, the last episode of Heroes we'll ever see, I don't know that there's much hope.



You're gonna have to help me out a little bit here. Networks are going to flat-out cancel popular shows because of the strike? The writers get back to work, but NBC decides to scrap Heroes all the same?


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> For me, I stopped reading comic books long ago for such reasons, and expected better from a TV show.



Right, because TV shows have always had the indelible mark of quality and consistency that comic books lacked.

I mean, there never was a show called Star Trek where the ship's captain and second-in-command both joined the away team on hostile, uncharted planets. The A-Team, the Dukes of Hazard, Gilligan's Island, Three's Company, Melrose Place...yeah, I can see why you snubbed comics in favor of TV.


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## fba827 (Dec 4, 2007)

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> I think the reason we had two volumes scheduled this year was that they suspected they wouldn't be able to run an entire season.  As it turns out, they were right.




I'm pretty sure they had two volumes for this year because they were going to use the break in between to do the anthology series Heroes: Origins (individual stories per episode about other Heroes with guest writers/directors/etc).  But that anthology was canceled entirely for this year (they say it was a mix of reasons, the two biggest being the impeding writers strike and also the dip in ratings for Heroes this season compared to last).


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## Vocenoctum (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Right, because TV shows have always had the indelible mark of quality and consistency that comic books lacked.
> 
> I mean, there never was a show called Star Trek where the ship's captain and second-in-command both joined the away team on hostile, uncharted planets. The A-Team, the Dukes of Hazard, Gilligan's Island, Three's Company, Melrose Place...yeah, I can see why you snubbed comics in favor of TV.




So, I shouldn't be so hard on Heroes, because some other shows have sucked too, er, okay.

I'm fine with being a "fair-weather fan" really. I don't mind leaving a show when it goes a way I don't want, and if others feel like that also, the show will change or die. Making excuses for poor plotting, pacing, dumb characters, and so on... well, that just seems a waste of time for me. I'll just play video games in that timeslot from now on. I'm disappointed I can't watch an engaging show and be entertained, nothing more.


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## Goobermunch (Dec 4, 2007)

fba827 said:
			
		

> I'm pretty sure they had two volumes for this year because they were going to use the break in between to do the anthology series Heroes: Origins (individual stories per episode about other Heroes with guest writers/directors/etc).  But that anthology was canceled entirely for this year (they say it was a mix of reasons, the two biggest being the impeding writers strike and also the dip in ratings for Heroes this season compared to last).




Actually, the reason this last episode felt so choppy is that it is an alternate ending they hastily filmed pre-strike.  That's why Peter never gets closure with Caitlin.  This was the last episode to go in the can.

There are no new scripts beyond what we saw tonight.

Historically, when the writers and the studios fight, it isn't over in a few weeks, much less months.  Their strikes tend to go for 5-6 months.  Given that the Director's Guild and the Screen Actor's Guild contracts both end in July, the studios have every reason to delay, in the hopes that they can force one of those groups to take a worse deal than the writers want.  Once one group cracks, it's all over.

As a result, people (writers) are forced to scramble to find ways to make ends meet.  Sometimes, they come back to their shows.  Sometimes they don't.  Sometimes, they work as scabs.  Usually, if they do that, they are unemployed (or blacklisted) when the strike ends.  It's really quite cutthroat.

If you want more Heroes, pray that the studios see reason quickly.  Otherwise, it's likely that the show will not resume.  It's not just Heroes either.  Very few shows survived the last big strike.

--G


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## Dire Bare (Dec 4, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Yes, Heroes is very comic book. I guess you either like that or you don't.
> 
> I enjoyed it over all. Although I was very disappointed to see Nikki go. I know she wasn't the most popular character, but I liked her.




There has been a lot of vocal Nikki-hate on these boards (and maybe others, but I'm only on ENWorld), but I'm not so sure she was an unpopular character.  I enjoyed the character concept, I feel the actress does a great job (and is very easy on the eyes), but I do think her subplots in Season 1 suffered a bit and she was written terribly in Season 2.

I'm sad to see the end of the character, mostly because she was written so poorly this season her death has less emotional resonance.

Heh, but until I see direct forensic evidence of Nikki's demise whenever the show picks up, there's a chance she'll be back!


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## Alzrius (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Sylar's played out. As a villain, he has no real personality or motivation other than "me want more powers".




Sylar's nowhere close to being "played out" as a character - as it is now, he's one of the best characters on the show. 

If you say that his wanting more powers is his only motivation, then you apparently missed the "String Theory" episode in season one - five years in the future, Sylar has decided that (save for one that he missed before) he doesn't want any more powers.

Sylar's goal hasn't been the mere acquisition of power; he wants to feel special. More than that, he wants to be the most special person in the world. For now, that just means collecting powers, but eventually he has a point where he just wants other special people dead.

That said, I think you're looking at him from the wrong angle. As the series' main antagonist, Sylar's contribution to the show is to drive the action and introduce conflict. If you want a character meant to evoke empathy and showcase a multi-layered personality that makes you question his motives, you've got that in Noah Bennett. 

Sylar has enough personality to make him a believable villain, and having satisfied that, his dynamic for the show is to be evil.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 4, 2007)

Valerian said:
			
		

> Well last week I called Nikki and Maya; really didn't expect Nathan's assassination, wow.  His mom really is a cold hearted *$%%@.



Ma Petrelli didn't order Nathan's death and had nothing to do with it.  She was notified by the company (probably Bob) after the fact.  She seemed to accept that it was necessary, but that could have been an act.  Ma Petrelli will definitely be in Volume 3, but will she be seeking vengeance for Nathan's death?



> Hiro dumping Adam in the grave was awesome.  That is actually a whole hell of a lot less humane than just killing the guy.



I was horrified when it was revealed what Hiro did with Adam.  Imagine being buried alive for all eternity!!!!  If/when Adam escapes, whoo-boy he's gonna be nasty!  Even after reading some of the posts here and realizing Hiro didn't know Adam's weakness and did what he felt necessary, I'm still wierded out.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 4, 2007)

Rystil Arden said:
			
		

> I thought of that but realised that it's no good--Kensei is immortal, that just gives him millions of years to become more powerful.  Then I thought Hiro might have sent Kensei to the distant post-apocalyptic future when Earth was all used up.



Shades of Vandal Savage?  



> Or he could have done the most evil thing that anyone ever did to anyone in the whole show, what Peter did to Caitlin and was planning to do to her (he left her in a future that he destroyed, so now she no longer even exists, and yet, that was his plan all along--why didn't he ask Hiro to retrieve her first?)



Time travel is a tricky thing to write and each writer (or group of writers) has different time travel rules.  Now that Peter has changed the future, what does that mean for Caitlin?  We don't know.  Does she cease to exist in a future that never happened?  Or does she continue in post-apocalyptic New York in a future alternate timeline?  Or is she dropped back into the "real world"?

One of Peter's main motivations for helping Adam after regaining his memory was to save Caitlin.  Peter was convinced by Adam that if the virus was destroyed, Caitlin would be saved.  Will this come to pass?  I sure hope they tell us in Volume 3!!!


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## Dire Bare (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> If Grandma Patrelli can shield her mind from telepathy, it's likely that all of the old-school heroes can.



I don't think Ma Petrelli has a "power" to resist telepathy.  Rather, she is aware of the "power" and so can fight against it.  Most people that Matt and Peter encounter either aren't aware telepathy exists or aren't experienced enough to fight against it.

Matt's dad, the Nightmare Man, was a subtle expert with his powers, so by the time you realized he got you, you're hip deep in nightmares.

By the way, how many of the previous generation heroes are left?  Ma Petrelli and Bob, anybody else?  (oh yeah, Matt's dad is in a "coma")


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## Dire Bare (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, he didn't get hit with a head shot (by Bennet, no doubt). Peter just pumps some healing juice into him and he's good to go.



This is a possibility, but I think Nathan is dead.  It would terribly weaken the dramatic impact if he was resurrected.  Of course, that sort of thing happens all the time in the source material!



> Sylar's played out. As a villain, he has no real personality or motivation other than "me want more powers".



Actually, in Volume 1, I think they did a great job of showing Sylar's motivations and how he got to be who he is.  In Volume 2, Sylar wasn't written all that well so it's easy to forget.


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## Grog (Dec 4, 2007)

I think that's it for me and Heroes. Beyond the terminal stupidity displayed by most of the characters, I feel like they haven't really developed at all this season, and in fact, some of them have actually regressed back to where they were early in season 1. I don't think I'm up for another round of this.

File this year of Heroes under "object lesson in how to take your show from awesome to crap in just half a season."


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## Glyfair (Dec 4, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> File this year of Heroes under "object lesson in how to take your show from awesome to crap in just half a season."



I believe the creator (or one of them) has chalked up this "volume" to a learning lesson.  He assumed that people would want more of what they got in the first season.  He learned he was wrong.

He's listed quiet a few things he felt he did wrong.  Characters shouldn't be far removed from the plot, they should be introduced in the plot was one thing he mentioned.


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> So, I shouldn't be so hard on Heroes, because some other shows have sucked too, er, okay.



By your espoused line of reasoning--namely, that you "expect better of TV" than comics--yes, that would seem to be the case. Everything "TV" is of a certain level of quality and everything that's "comic book" is of a lower level of quality.

Some comic books suck, some don't. Some TV shows suck, some don't. It is, of course, much more reasonable to "expect better" based on more substantial qualities than the medium through which a story is delivered.


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Dire Bare said:
			
		

> This is a possibility, but I think Nathan is dead.  It would terribly weaken the dramatic impact if he was resurrected.  Of course, that sort of thing happens all the time in the source material!



I agree. Then again, I felt that way when Bennet (whom people keep referring to as HRG long after his name has been revealed) had his long-awaited eyeball-shooting prophecy fulfilled, only to come back to life minutes later.

There is a real double-standard that I see about Heroes in these threads. If the characters act stupidly or display bathos, somebody defends the show for portraying the characters as real people, not larger-than-life comic book characters. 

Then when the show has its moments where something is handled in a ham-handed manner for dramatic purposes, somebody jumps forth to defend it as being very true to its comic-book inspirations. 

And sometimes it's the same darn person.

I think we get the latter here for Nathan's death. If your intention is to silence someone before they expose you, then do not wait until the instant before he makes his announcement to assassinate him--especially not in front of twenty or so cameras. This is indiscreet, and tends to spur investigations, not defuse them. I mean, Peter could call the press up the next day and make his own announcement about why his brother was murdered.

Then again, it's pretty dumb for Nathan to blithely stage that press conference in open public. "Big crowded room with lots of exit and entry points? Sounds good."



> Actually, in Volume 1, I think they did a great job of showing Sylar's motivations and how he got to be who he is.  In Volume 2, Sylar wasn't written all that well so it's easy to forget.



???

Last season--err, pardon me, in "volume 1"--Sylar is primarily just a shadowy, faceless, brain-splicing boogeyman. He gets three or four episodes of focus, tops. And all we find out is that he's a momma's boy who wanted to be special, and this turns him into a remorseless killer. Then he kills mommy and decides "ah, what the helll, I'll blow up New York".


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Sylar's nowhere close to being "played out" as a character - as it is now, he's one of the best characters on the show.




He's used-up. Bbone dry. A two-dimensional thug whose closure is long overdue. Time for him and Peter to be moved along and let some other heroes and villains drive for a while.

I caught the episode you refer to, and he was quite happy to gobble up Claire's powers the second he was able, griinning evilly the whole time like a true 2D dastard. So, he wasn't all that tired of stealing powers, was he? He became the evil president because that's what evil 2D dastards do.


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## Relique du Madde (Dec 4, 2007)

Personally, I think Adam deserved his fate since he was stupid enough not to slice open Hiro's neck during his monologue.   Think about it, he knows that Hiro can slow down time and teliport, but what does he do?  He gives a two minute long monologue and only decides to drop the vial once Hiro tried to grab/teliport him.


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## Felon (Dec 4, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Personally, I think Adam deserved his fate since he was stupid enough to slice open Hiro's neck during his monologue.   Think about it, he knows that Hiro can slow down time and teliport, but what does he do?  He gives a two minute long monologue while resting his sword half a slice away from Hiro's jugular vane.



See, that's the show being true to its comic-book inspirations.

/sarcasm (refer to my posts above)


----------



## Hand of Evil (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> He'sused-up. Bbone dry. A two-dimensional thug whose closure is long overdue. Time for him and Peter to be moved along and let some other heroes and villains drive for a while.
> 
> I caught the episode you refer to, and he was quite happy to gobble up Claire's powers the second he was able, griinning evilly the whole time like a true 2D dastard. So, he wasn't all that tired of stealing powers, was he? He became the evil president because that's what evil two-dimensional thugs do.



While I agree Sylar has not moved into being a mastermind villian, that is what makes him a good villian, emotions drive him; the things that are not heroic, vengenance, vice, ego.  He is needed just because he is not noble or good, he is petty and mean.


----------



## John Crichton (Dec 4, 2007)

Wow, some of you guys really just love to hate, and if you don't, it sure seems like it.

Enjoyable ep.  Looking forward to seeing more whenever the writers come back.


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 4, 2007)

It was a good episode with some nice twists at the end.

Has anyone mentioned Peter and DL's power?  Because... why didn't he just walk into the high security safe?  Was it too thick or something?  I don't recall an explanation on that, but I could've easily missed it.

I think those who are saying they're done with Heroes may be disappointed next year.  Sure, Season 2 wasn't even close to Season 1, but given that a) we only got half a season and b) Tim Kring has apologized to the fans and vowed to make changes, I expect Season 3 will be vast improvement.  Rather than be cynical, I look to Season 1 as a model and I believe they'll try to reach this quality.

Also, remember that Heroes lost a great writer/producer in Bryan Fuller, who moved on to his brainchild, Pushing Daisies.  You have to realize that that can have a profound impact on the show.  He may not have many episode credits, but that doesn't illuminate his entire influence on the show, which I think was quite strong.

So yeah, Season 2 was not up to snuff for a few reasons.  But things were improving, and I think they'll continue to get better.


----------



## Arnwyn (Dec 4, 2007)

It was a mediocre episode that felt disjointed, much like the rest of the season. The big redeeming feature was the death (maybe?) of Nikki, in which I wildly cheered. I don't want to see her again.

A little disappointed with Nathan's (maybe?) death, as I liked it when him and Peter were together.

Not too keen on this season's "regenerative blood" schtick, and I think it was a poor decision. And yeah - Sylar's played out. Boring!


----------



## Remus Lupin (Dec 4, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> Personally, I think Adam deserved his fate since he was stupid enough not to slice open Hiro's neck during his monologue.   Think about it, he knows that Hiro can slow down time and teliport, but what does he do?  He gives a two minute long monologue and only decides to drop the vial once Hiro tried to grab/teliport him.




<INCREDIBLES>You got me monologuing!</INCREDIBLES>


----------



## Taelorn76 (Dec 4, 2007)

On Peter opening the safe, I think it would have been easier to pop or slide each bolt individually instead of trying to mind muscle them all at once.


----------



## Taelorn76 (Dec 4, 2007)

Arnwyn said:
			
		

> It was a mediocre episode that felt disjointed, much like the rest of the season. The big redeeming feature was the death (maybe?) of Nikki, in which I wildly cheered. I don't want to see her again.
> 
> A little disappointed with Nathan's (maybe?) death, as I liked it when him and Peter were together.
> 
> Not too keen on this season's "regenerative blood" schtick, and I think it was a poor decision. And yeah - Sylar's played out. Boring!




As soon as that I've missed you scene, between Peter and Nathan, aired I thought right away that Nathan was going to be the second dead hero. Then he steps up to the podium and it confirmed it even more.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Last season--err, pardon me, in "volume 1"--Sylar is primarily just a shadowy, faceless, brain-splicing boogeyman. He gets three or four episodes of focus, tops. And all we find out is that he's a momma's boy who wanted to be special, and this turns him into a remorseless killer. Then he kills mommy and decides "ah, what the helll, I'll blow up New York".




Good times, good times...


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Seems like you've missed some episodes. Peter has known Adam for more than five minutes. He's been his sole confidant for months now, and--more importantly--has been the only person in the know to earn Peter's trust. He may love Nathan more, but he doesn't side with Adam out of love, but rather because he seems to have good intel. The Company has indeed been sitting on top of a super-virus.
> 
> Adam taught Peter how to recover his memories using his regenerative powers.
> 
> ...



Thanks for filling in some of the blanks. I missed where adam taught peter about memory regain. I thought peter was gradually getting it back because of what his mom did.  And it makes sense that the old generation know how to protect their mind, ala always carry a rock of kryptonite with you.  I still have a problem with peter being manipulated so easiliy. He only saved the world with Parkman, Hiro and Nathan last time.  

Note: never trust the person who helped you break out of prison.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> There is a real double-standard that I see about Heroes in these threads. If the characters act stupidly or display bathos, somebody defends the show for portraying the characters as real people, not larger-than-life comic book characters.
> 
> Then when the show has its moments where something is handled in a ham-handed manner for dramatic purposes, somebody jumps forth to defend it as being very true to its comic-book inspirations.
> 
> And sometimes it's the same darn person.



I don't see a double standard.  I think most of us agree that Volume 2 was less than perfect, to put it mildly.  However, there are many on the intertubes (not picking on any individuals) who overanalyze and metathink the characters actions on a regular basis.  And there are some of us who realize the show is trying to be a superheros show about real people discovering powers and making the kinds of mistakes real people would make.

I think it boils down to glass half-empty vs. glass half-full types of viewers.

However, now that Volumes 1 and 2 are done, I do hope that we see some character growth in Volume 3.  I still expect the characters to make human mistakes, but less of them as they learn and become more comfortable with their powers and the situations they find themselves in.


----------



## Dire Bare (Dec 4, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Note: never trust the person who helped you break out of prison.



Heh, heh, moral of Volume 2 I'd say . . . .


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Well, he didn't get hit with a head shot (by Bennet, no doubt). Peter just pumps some healing juice into him and he's good to go.
> 
> 
> Sylar's played out. As a villain, he has no real personality or motivation other than "me want more powers".



You have great insight but I disagree here. Sylar's not me want powers. SYlar is me want Claire's power.  Like Lex Luthor wanting superman's abilities, the joker wanting batman to laught and gargamayle wanting 6 smurfs for a bar of gold.


----------



## Grog (Dec 4, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I believe the creator (or one of them) has chalked up this "volume" to a learning lesson.  He assumed that people would want more of what they got in the first season.  He learned he was wrong.



If that's the lesson he learned, then he learned the wrong lesson. The problem wasn't that season 2 was too much like season 1; the problem was that there were way too many incidences of either characters behaving stupidly or things just randomly happening just to move the plot along, and character development was practically non-existent this season. Think about it - Claire went through _exactly the same arc_ with her father this year that she did last year. And it was done much better the first time around.

Oh, and now that they can bring characters back from the dead, that pretty much makes it impossible to take any kind of threat they might face seriously. Adding that ability to Claire's (and presumably, Peter's) blood was probably the worst idea they had this season, and that's saying a lot.


----------



## Grog (Dec 4, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> On Peter opening the safe, I think it would have been easier to pop or slide each bolt individually instead of trying to mind muscle them all at once.



And it would have been even easier for him to not bother with the telekinesis at all and simply phase through the door. Yet another power he conveniently forgot he had.


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 4, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> So, I shouldn't be so hard on Heroes, because some other shows have sucked too, er, okay.
> 
> I'm fine with being a "fair-weather fan" really. I don't mind leaving a show when it goes a way I don't want, and if others feel like that also, the show will change or die. Making excuses for poor plotting, pacing, dumb characters, and so on... well, that just seems a waste of time for me. I'll just play video games in that timeslot from now on. I'm disappointed I can't watch an engaging show and be entertained, nothing more.



I"ll never understand why people force themselves to watch or be into things they naturally aren't and then complain about how bad an experience it was.   I don't like scrapbooking.  So I know for a fact that watching a scrapbooking tv show is probably not going to be my cup of tea. If you don't like comic books why watch a show about comic book characters.


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> He's used-up. Bbone dry. A two-dimensional thug whose closure is long overdue. Time for him and Peter to be moved along and let some other heroes and villains drive for a while.
> 
> I caught the episode you refer to, and he was quite happy to gobble up Claire's powers the second he was able, griinning evilly the whole time like a true 2D dastard. So, he wasn't all that tired of stealing powers, was he? He became the evil president because that's what evil 2D dastards do.



Let's look at comic books, one of my favorite villians bane. In the 90s, bane was an awesome villian, my favorite villian arc still in the batman comics.  NOw he's a second class villian, used as a henchmen to more powerful villians. I like this role for sylar. He's the new bane or killer croc, being used by other villians.  Imagine if Adam finds him, what he can do to maniuplate him. 

Sylar's motiviation is to be the only one with power. That is such an ambitious goal considering how far away from it he is to it.  My idea, have sylar do what the house of m did, kill off all but the main heroes on the show.  We still don't know how he takes power. HE also has two new powers, some kind of virus healing ability and maybe the ability to shape reality.


----------



## drothgery (Dec 4, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> And it would have been even easier for him to not bother with the telekinesis at all and simply phase through the door. Yet another power he conveniently forgot he had.




And this is yet another reason why Peter (and Sylar) should have stayed dead. It's hard for the writers to keep track of which powers they have.


----------



## drothgery (Dec 4, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Sylar's motiviation is to be the only one with power. That is such an ambitious goal considering how far away from it he is to it.  My idea, have sylar do what the house of m did, kill off all but the main heroes on the show.  We still don't know how he takes power. HE also has two new powers, some kind of virus healing ability and maybe the ability to shape reality.




I really hope Sylar can't use the powers of those he killed while de-powered. Though for a second last night I thought that the Elle that came back from chasing Sylar was, in fact, Sylar using the illusion power.


----------



## drothgery (Dec 4, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> Oh, and now that they can bring characters back from the dead, that pretty much makes it impossible to take any kind of threat they might face seriously. Adding that ability to Claire's (and presumably, Peter's) blood was probably the worst idea they had this season, and that's saying a lot.




Probably not Peter's. The regen power isn't inherrent to him.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 4, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> HE also has two new powers, some kind of virus healing ability and maybe the ability to shape reality.



I don't think so, he didn't have his power when he killed Alejandro or Candice. So, it's unlikely that he will show up with their powers.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 4, 2007)

drothgery said:
			
		

> And this is yet another reason why Peter (and Sylar) should have stayed dead. It's hard for the writers to keep track of which powers they have.



I have believed since half way through Volume 1, that Peter and Sylar need to be killed off. I _like_ both characters but their god-like potential has to be delt with sooner or later.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Dec 4, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> Let's look at comic books, one of my favorite villians bane. In the 90s, bane was an awesome villian, my favorite villian arc still in the batman comics.  NOw he's a second class villian, used as a henchmen to more powerful villians. I like this role for sylar. He's the new bane or killer croc, being used by other villians.  Imagine if Adam finds him, what he can do to maniuplate him.
> 
> Sylar's motiviation is to be the only one with power. That is such an ambitious goal considering how far away from it he is to it.  My idea, have sylar do what the house of m did, kill off all but the main heroes on the show.  We still don't know how he takes power. HE also has two new powers, some kind of virus healing ability and maybe the ability to shape reality.




I don't see that happening since the moment Sylar meets Adam is the moment Adam dies.  Sure Adam could regenerate but I seriously doubt he could regenerate fast enough to prevent Sylar from brain biting him if Adam's body is radiated and encased in molten steel.

In other words, Sylar and Peter must go and the must go soon because unless the series is going to do a massive superhero fight and make it compelling, there is no reason to have two characters that can do everything.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Dec 4, 2007)

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> Actually, the reason this last episode felt so choppy is that it is an alternate ending they hastily filmed pre-strike.  That's why Peter never gets closure with Caitlin.  This was the last episode to go in the can.
> 
> There are no new scripts beyond what we saw tonight.




I don't believe that is true. I read that Heroes had shot up until the start of Episode 14 before the strike.

Yes - they did hastily reshoot an ending to Ep 11 to make is more of a season finale - that is accurate.

They are not going to show us anything concerning the few episodes more they have in the Can. Those will be held until Heroes - whenever that may be - restarts after the strike is resolved.

I would not be surprised for Heroes to do a remarkable about face and go off in a new direction in "Chapter 3".  And by this - different than what they have hinted they would do. Tim Kring's comments indicate that he has rethought his direction of the show in the face of fans and ratings.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 4, 2007)

Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I don't believe that is true. I read that Heroes had shot up until the start of Episode 14 before the strike.
> 
> Yes - they did hastily reshoot an ending to Ep 11 to make is more of a season finale - that is accurate.



Also, I heard that the 'reshoot' consisted of less than two minutes of the show. Not a lot changed.


----------



## Hijinks (Dec 4, 2007)

> Probably not Peter's. The regen power isn't inherrent to him.




That's why I think Nathan's really dead, not just mostly dead.  You probably have to get the blood into him right quick to save him.  Claire's all the way across the country, Adam's gone, and Peter doesn't have that ability that I'm aware of.

I can't like Hiro any more.  What he did to Adam, even if Adam did steal his girlfriend and kill his father, was horrific to me.  Buried alive ... *shudder*  I can't hang with that.  He should have just killed him, and if he didn't know how, he should have asked someone.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 4, 2007)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> That's why I think Nathan's really dead, not just mostly dead.  You probably have to get the blood into him right quick to save him.  Claire's all the way across the country, Adam's gone, and Peter doesn't have that ability that I'm aware of.
> 
> I can't like Hiro any more.  What he did to Adam, even if Adam did steal his girlfriend and kill his father, was horrific to me.  Buried alive ... *shudder*  I can't hang with that.  He should have just killed him, and if he didn't know how, he should have asked someone.



Interesting side note: Adams "death" is pretty similar to the death of another show the same actor played in (Alias) - immortal but trapped forever...

I am still a bit disappointed that it's really supposed to be possible to kill Adam by blowing off his head. But we might never learn the truth about that. 

I still like Sylar. I like how he is capable of manipulating people to gain their trust, and how he evil still manages to be. 

Nikkis death made me sad. I liked the character, even if it was underused, and I liked the actress. 

I hope that some characters act a bit smarter in Volume 3, and I hope that this is one of the lessons Kring learned. (If you think about it, this was definitely the case in Volume 1 to, and if viewers didn't want Volume 1 all over again, characters acting stupid might be an aspect.  )


----------



## Kheti sa-Menik (Dec 4, 2007)

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> <snip>
> If you want more Heroes, pray that the studios see reason quickly.  Otherwise, it's likely that the show will not resume.  It's not just Heroes either.  Very few shows survived the last big strike.
> 
> --G




Actually, I will "pray" that the lazy writers get off their sorry high horses and get back to work.  They are not bosses, they work for someone else.  When you work for someone else, they set the rules.  If you don't like the rules, you are free to leave and find a different someone else to work for.
They have no right to demand anything.

Back to Heroes.....
I liked the episode but I thought I could it could have been meatier.  Maybe an hour and a half or two hours.  I wish truly they had been able to have the other 11 episodes to fill the season out.

I don't agree Caitlin is dead or stuck in a future that doesn't exist.  She was deported back to Ireland right in the alternate future?  I can see her having been put in a quaratine center in Ireland with a bunch of other survivors.  Scared, but probably okay.  Then Peter and crew change the past and it echos into the future, rewriting the future.  Caitlin being from the past is like an island in the eye of a storm as the future shifts and changes around her as a result of the past changing.  Caitlin is standing where her bed in the quaratine center was but now is a broom closet in a municipal office building.  She is fine, physically, although probably mentally and emotionally messed up and still stranded in the future.  A different future.  Who knows what that future is like though?  She's stuck there until Peter or Hiro come and rescue her.


I was hoping Maya would bite it.
I was hoping they'd treat Parkman a little better, give him a little more to do.
HRG going back to work for the company and believing the company would let Claire, his wife, and his son alone?  Gullible.....unless he has something held over Bob's head that forces Bob not to move against his family.

I hope next season is tighter.  Not leaving characters out in the dark to languish for multiple episodes.   I think they need to reduce the cast size a little to make tighter stories.
Keep Suresh, Peter, maybe Nathan, Parkman, Molly, Sylar, Elle, Bob, Noah, Clair, and Hiro.
Keep Mother Petrelli and Ando too.

Send Micah and DL's family, including Watch-and-Do It Girl, off into the sunset, grieving for all they lost.
Make Maya vanish, exiling herself, not trusting herself around people without Alehandro.
Noah's wife and son (never can remember their names) go into hiding while Clair stays in the limelight.
Leave Adam to stew for a while.
Never bring back the Haitian.
Hit Flying Boy with a tactical nuke.

Interweave the remaining cast's stories more and bring back some old side characters from season 1/2 for occasional story arcs...Clair's natural mother, the Invisible Man, Parkman's dad (who isn't dead but locked in his own mind), Caitlin.

I liked this season, though it may not sound like it and I will be tuning in next season.  I just want more meat with my meal is all.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 4, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> By your espoused line of reasoning--namely, that you "expect better of TV" than comics--yes, that would seem to be the case. Everything "TV" is of a certain level of quality and everything that's "comic book" is of a lower level of quality.
> 
> Some comic books suck, some don't. Some TV shows suck, some don't. It is, of course, much more reasonable to "expect better" based on more substantial qualities than the medium through which a story is delivered.




Posting while distracted, so let me start from the beginning. There are good comic books, and bad comic books, their are "story driven" comic books, and "pulp" comic books. There are TV shows with careful plotting, or just thrown together. We can have TV shows with good dialogue or bad.

So, I find it odd that Heroes seeks to emulate the worst parts of comic books. "No ones dead unless you see the body" is a staple of comics, sure, but just the pulp stuff churned out by people that regard others continuity as a chalk board rather than set in stuff. It's a BAD staple to emulate in a series about "humans dealing with the world as they learn about powers".

By the same token, comic books are brief capsules of time, where plotting can take a year to play out, TV is longer episodes and shorter seasons. I expect that a relatively high budget, well reviewed show, would spend the time to think out their story arcs and plot and plan better than a comic book. It's disappointing to me that they can't live up to the standard they set mid season last year.

I would simply expect to combine the best of comics and the best of tv's virtues into a show I can get behind, rather than seeing it fall apart.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 4, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I"ll never understand why people force themselves to watch or be into things they naturally aren't and then complain about how bad an experience it was.   I don't like scrapbooking.  So I know for a fact that watching a scrapbooking tv show is probably not going to be my cup of tea. If you don't like comic books why watch a show about comic book characters.





Force themselves?

I watched season 1 and liked it a lot. The final 2-3 eps lagged, and the finale was bleh, but I figured they'd plot out season 2 better from the start so they didn't run into the snags of the first.

I'm not watching Heroes to complain about it, I gave it through the end of a plotline to turn around and improve to where I'd hoped for.

The simple fact is, a lot of folks DIDN'T, and Heroes ratings took a dive. I gave it the benefit of the doubt (or, more appropriately, hoped against all reason) and gave it time.  I don't like it anymore and so I'm out.


Now, why do I discuss it? Because this is a discussion board and I'm disappointed, same as I've posted occasionally about gnomes being killed off. I've also posted about things I like, but no one says there "hey, why don't you keep your opinions to yourself". (Not that you are here of course.)

As for comic shows, I've watched and enjoyed many comic movies, and I don't think what makes a comic movie is bad plot, pacing, stupid characters, and many of the other hallmarks that folks complain about comics in general. If I've been to every XMen movie, seen many others, and still find Heroes "comic bookness" to be a flaw, then I think the intended audience is quite a bit different.


----------



## Grog (Dec 5, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Actually, I will "pray" that the lazy writers get off their sorry high horses and get back to work.  They are not bosses, they work for someone else.  When you work for someone else, they set the rules.  If you don't like the rules, you are free to leave and find a different someone else to work for.
> They have no right to demand anything.



Actually, they do. Collective bargaining rights are protected under U.S. law. They can demand whatever they want to. Nothing says the studios have to agree, of course, but nothing says the writers have to come back to work until they receive what they feel is a fair deal, either.

And you obviously aren't too familiar with the Hollywood power structure. There is no "different someone else" to work for.


----------



## Felon (Dec 5, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Actually, I will "pray" that the lazy writers get off their sorry high horses and get back to work.  They are not bosses, they work for someone else.  When you work for someone else, they set the rules.  If you don't like the rules, you are free to leave and find a different someone else to work for.
> They have no right to demand anything.



So an employee is just a field hand, whose options are to graciously accept whatever they're offered or exercise their sole "right": to go without the means to acquire food, clothing, and shelter? That's the reasoning of a bully, a robber, or a tyrant. if I can withhold something vital to your survival in order to secure your compliance, that's not coersion, because you do have a choice after all: you can assert your displeasure with my way of doing things, and then go lie down in the gutter to die.

The way I see it, if I work for you, and I'm the talent that makes you wealthy, you'll pardon me if I don't just accept whatever crumbs you toss my way, but rather request an appropriately sized slice of the pie. There's no "right" being exercised by the crumb-throwing employer in such a scenario, except for "might makes right"--i.e. it's something most employers can get away with. By that same virtue, if I can get away with getting my colleagues to unite so that we can negotiate some fair terms, then that's my "right" as well.

That's what strikes like this all boild down to: what either side can get away with.


----------



## Kheti sa-Menik (Dec 5, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> So an employee is just a field hand, whose options are to graciously accept whatever they're offered or exercise their sole "right": to go without the means to acquire food, clothing, and shelter? That's the reasoning of a bully, a robber, or a tyrant. if I can withhold something vital to your survival in order to secure your compliance, that's not coersion, because you do have a choice after all: you can assert your displeasure with my way of doing things, and then go lie down in the gutter to die.
> 
> The way I see it, if I work for you, and I'm the talent that makes you wealthy, you'll pardon me if I don't just accept whatever crumbs you toss my way, but rather request an appropriately sized slice of the pie. There's no "right" being exercised by the crumb-throwing employer in such a scenario, except for "might makes right"--i.e. it's something most employers can get away with. By that same virtue, if I can get away with getting my colleagues to unite so that we can negotiate some fair terms, then that's my "right" as well.
> 
> That's what strikes like this all boild down to: what either side can get away with.




That's actually crap.  I work for employer A, I do a lot of work for them, nights, weekends, etc.  I want to do my best for them.  They make a rule/policy toward their employees that is not illegal but I don't like, rule 33b.  It treats employees unfairly.  I communicate my feelings to my immediate boss and with his blessing to his boss, to no avail.   I have two choices: live with 33b or look for work at another employer.
It's a choice, no one is forcing me to do anything.  Employer A isn't a bully, tyrant, or robber or any such nonsense.  They are exercising their right to make policies they believe will benefit their business just as I have the right to walk out the door and go to work for employer B or C.  
I don't have the right to demand that employer A change their rule to suit me.  I do have the right to take my expertise to another employer.  Employer A is not making me starve because I can find another job/employer.

Your statements above assume that the choice is either Employer A or die in the gutter when there are other employers whose rules may suit me more.


----------



## Richards (Dec 5, 2007)

One of my favorite lines from this episode was right after Nathan and Matt traveled from New York to Texas by hugging each other tight while Nathan used his powers of flight.  After they landed, one of them (now I've forgotten which) says, "Let's never speak of this again."

It was also a nice touch that when Sylar gained his powers back at the end (or technically, at the beginning of Volume 3), he demonstrated it by telekinesing a spinach can to him.  Somebody must have decided to make a subtle nod towards Popeye, as spinach is the source of his power.

So where exactly is Adam?  Is that Mr. Nakamura's coffin he's in?  I didn't see anybody in there with him.  I'm not quite sure how Hiro managed to teleport himself and Adam into a closed coffin that already contained a body; that seems like too much of a tight fit for it to work.  So did he just teleport to the graveyard with Adam, stop time, throw him into an empty coffin, and bury him himself?  He couldn't have started time back up without the coffin already buried, or Adam's shouts would have been heard.  I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of how he got that to work.

Johnathan


----------



## LightPhoenix (Dec 5, 2007)

I just watched it tonight (boo grad school!).

The first thing my friend said to me was that it was HRG who shot Nathan.  I like that idea so very much.

I liked Elle in this episode more than I've liked her all season.  HRG was great as well.  Micah still rules all though.

Props to the person who said Claire went through the exact same arc this season.

I liked that Monica, as St. Joan on the comic cover, had the knife from the vault at Primatech.

I'm guessing Ma Petrelli's box is Peter going berserk and making it his mission to take out the Company.  He is nigh unstoppable, and I suspect Peter will become a sheer destructive force, if not a proper villain.

On a related tangent, HRG could never be the guiding light for the heroes, only the protector.  I really think it will be Mohinder who will end up being the moral compass.  In a brief period he already turned Maya and Elle onto a different, probably better path.  He's naive and unwise, and I don't like it but I guess I have come to terms with it as being a character trait.

It was about darn time to see Hiro kick some butt with his power.  I think the fight between him and Peter was one of the best parts, for the awesomeness of Hiro teleporting around.  I also like that Hiro wasn't merciful with Adam, but kept trying to talk Peter down.

I hate that Peter was immune to Matt's control, but it makes sense since he's immune to Hiro's time stop as well.

By far the best part of the episode was Matt and Nathan landing, and Hiro coming out seconds later and screaming "flying man!"

So, I wonder if Nathan was always going to be assassinated in this episode, or that was the added bit.



			
				Richards said:
			
		

> So where exactly is Adam?  Is that Mr. Nakamura's coffin he's in?  I didn't see anybody in there with him.  I'm not quite sure how Hiro managed to teleport himself and Adam into a closed coffin that already contained a body; that seems like too much of a tight fit for it to work.  So did he just teleport to the graveyard with Adam, stop time, throw him into an empty coffin, and bury him himself?  He couldn't have started time back up without the coffin already buried, or Adam's shouts would have been heard.  I'm a little fuzzy on the specifics of how he got that to work.




I imagine that's exactly how it worked - Hiro busted out a shovel and buried Adam with time stopped.



			
				Steel_Wind said:
			
		

> I don't believe that is true. I read that Heroes had shot up until the start of Episode 14 before the strike.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> ...




I thought that they had drafts up to 14, but they weren't really fit for shooting and needed rewrites.

Honestly, I would be surprised at this point if NBC would sit on episodes, seeing as the strike looks to go on for a long while.  All signs point to this being the end of the season, and that's three episodes sitting there not making money.  Unfortunately, those episodes, if they were shot, were long ago turned over to NBC.

I completely agree on Chapter 3.


----------



## Grog (Dec 5, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Your statements above assume that the choice is either Employer A or die in the gutter when there are other employers whose rules may suit me more.



Again, the fact that you are missing is that _there are no other employers in the industry._ Basically all of Hollywood entertainment is controlled by six huge corporations - NBC Universal, Disney, Time Warner, Paramount, Sony and News Corp (FOX). Further, those six corporations negotiate as a single entity - the AMPTP. This means that, unless you're one of the few dozen or so writers in the industry who can name his own price, if you try to sell a script in Hollywood, you will get exactly the same deal from each studio.

So, no, the writers can't just "find someone else to work for." There *is* no one else for them to work for.


----------



## Ed_Laprade (Dec 5, 2007)

The first scene of Volume 3:

_Parkman:_ "Peter, you can avenge your brother's death by showing them what you can do!"

_Peter:_ "Yes, of course!" Stands up. "Everyone, my brother was killed to keep him from telling you something. This is what he wanted to tell you..." Flies around room, through walls, and zaps a few unimportat things.

Oh wait, the writers have loaded them both to the gills with Stupid Pills (tm), so that won't happen. Bah! (And I'm betting, too, that it was Mr. Bennet.)

Yeah, so why didn't Peter just phase through the safe door? How did Hiro get Adam into that coffin? And a bunch of other stuff. First Micah gets his cousin almost killed, and now his mom gets blowed up real good. The kid's gotta freak out now. Sylar? I wanted him dead last season. Now I want him dead even more. 

Considering that the next 'volume' is called "Villians", I doubt that I'll be watching. (I'm another who gave up comics because having the same villians keep coming back, no matter what (and dead heroes too), just became too rediculous to put up with anymore.)


----------



## Felon (Dec 5, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> That's actually crap.



Such a derisive tone. You must listen to a lot of AM radio...it makes one think that snide dismissiveness is a virtue.



> I have two choices: live with 33b or look for work at another employer.
> It's a choice, no one is forcing me to do anything.  Employer A isn't a bully, tyrant, or robber or any such nonsense.  They are exercising their right to make policies they believe will benefit their business just as I have the right to walk out the door and go to work for employer B or C. I don't have the right to demand that employer A change their rule to suit me.



And by what virtue do you feel that you are the duly appointed arbiter of what rights exist in the employer/employee relationship? 

It certainly isn't the virtue even-handed reasoning. If employers can fly under the banner of "just doing whatever benefits their business" when they exploit their employees, the employees can likewise be vindicated for doing whatever profits them. But you would grant one party the benefit of the Machiavelli defense, while the other side is expected to accept their lack of rights in a sheep-like manner--it's _wrong_ for employees to try to acquire leverage. Ethics demands they keep themselves at a disadvantage while their employers act in a supremely self-interested manner. This sounds like crappy reasoning in my book. 



> I do have the right to take my expertise to another employer.  Employer A is not making me starve because I can find another job/employer. Your statements above assume that the choice is either Employer A or die in the gutter when there are other employers whose rules may suit me more.



My statements assume what has become an increasingly stark reality over the years: while the free market system assumes competition is the norm, businesses are learning that from an economical point of view they're better off standardizing and collaberating. Ever seen _A Beautiful Mind_? There's this scene where Nash has his big breakthrough in a bar where all the guys want to hit on a blonde. He realizes they are all better off cooperating to make sure one of them bags the girl. This theme of cooperation sounds kind of utopian until one realizes that in this metaphor, the blonde is the little guy--the employee or consumer. 

That's the main reason why we have "trade associations" like the MPAA and RIAA, to figure out ways to standardize their business practices for mutual benefit--such as ways to marginalize the costs of maintaining a work force. The upshot of this is that in many industries, working for one company is as about beneficial as working at another. That irksome Black Friday policy you hate at company A is likely in effect at company B.

My position also assumes one more vital fact: the vast majority of people simply don't have the luxury of not working. Work equals food and shelter and quality of life. This makes the "right to quit" arguement ring a little hollow, since it tries to present the prospect of unemployment as a trifling inconvenience. The truth is, Joe Blow is very susceptable to employer exploitation. Without a job, he's only a few months from destitution. When it comes to staying alive, it is nonsensical to expect one to accept exploitation as a matter of principle.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Dec 5, 2007)

After having watched the man walking away from the Odessa Sheriff's Office, while there is something to be said for the man moving like Adam - the man is wearing glasses.

I agree with the theory that the shooter was HRG.

Should Claire find out that dear-old-Dad did in not-so-dear-old-Dad, I don't see how "I love you Claire-bear - they made me do it" is going to get him out of that one.

And it certainly won't cut it with Peter Petrelli.

The crappy thing is that we may wait as much as a YEAR before we will know.

Eleven episodes of yet-to-be aired Season 4 Battlestar Galactica and I am *out of TV*


----------



## Glyfair (Dec 5, 2007)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> The first thing my friend said to me was that it was HRG who shot Nathan.  I like that idea so very much.



I told my brother that just after it happened (I also predicted that Nathan would be shot as they headed for the press conference, pretty obvious).  The guy walking away moved like HRG.

Of course, that doesn't mean they won't change it later if they choose, even if they shot it with him.


----------



## Glyfair (Dec 5, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> If that's the lesson he learned, then he learned the wrong lesson.



Actually, there were a half dozens things he listed that he did wrong.  If you search you can probably find it, as it was covered in a thread here.



> ...the problem was that there were way too many incidences of either characters behaving stupidly...




Some of it was silly.  However, a lot of the complaints I see of this is what I call "gamer logic."  The sort of logic that gamers use when they say in that a certain action is the only logical thing and not doing it is stupid.  The biggest example of it is "X is a threat, they should have just killed him" even though people tend to resist killing someone and there are major repercussions for getting caught.  Also, they forget that people do stupid and illogical things _all the time_.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Dec 5, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> Actually, I will "pray" that the lazy writers get off their sorry high horses and get back to work.  They are not bosses, they work for someone else.  When you work for someone else, they set the rules.  If you don't like the rules, you are free to leave and find a different someone else to work for.
> They have no right to demand anything.




I think we already have a thread discussing the writers strike, so I'd recommend just discuss Heroes here, and _anything_ that pertains the ethics and morals behind the writers strike to the other thread. No need to derail here. 
Therefore: 


> Back to Heroes.....


----------



## Hand of Evil (Dec 5, 2007)

Okay, some thoughts for you...

Nathan can come back...
a) Peter using Lenderman's (spelling) power
b) Peter using his own blood
c) Peter using Molly's power to find Claire, then fly out and use it
d) Nathan becomes Peter's Jessica talking to him from beyond the grave and being his advisor
e) HRG is the shooter and will bring Nathan back as a secret plan to take out the Company​
Odds are none of those will happen.  Peter is not bright and the writers have not helped him.   Nathan was one of the few complex characters on the show, when he had air time.  His relationships, his views, even his thoughts.


Also, what about Peter and the funky powder of virus, was it just me of did it look like he absorbed it?


----------



## Goobermunch (Dec 5, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I told my brother that just after it happened (I also predicted that Nathan would be shot as they headed for the press conference, pretty obvious).  The guy walking away moved like HRG.
> 
> Of course, that doesn't mean they won't change it later if they choose, even if they shot it with him.




I have a more sinister theory.  I suspect that the shooter was none other than a version of Peter from an alternate timeline!  He was dressed like Peter and (at least to my eye) looked like him.

That would also explain Ma Petrelli's comment about opening Pandora's box.

--G


----------



## GoodKingJayIII (Dec 5, 2007)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Actually, there were a half dozens things he listed that he did wrong.  If you search you can probably find it, as it was covered in a thread here.




I actually posted the link in this thread.  It's on page 1 or 2, but here it is again.

Heroes Creator to Fans: I'm Super Sorry!


----------



## GlassJaw (Dec 5, 2007)

Got around to watching it last night.  This episode was certainly better than the last couple.  It's always a plus when we actually get to see some powers being used.  The coolest scene was Peter and Adam walking down the hall towards the vault and taking on the guards.  Too little, too late this season unfortunately but welcome nonetheless.

As others have said, the end definitely felt rushed and the wrap-up was over before you knew it.  Kind of a wonky ending (hasty press conference).  I saw the Nathan shooting a mile away.  My guess is that Noah did it, now that's he been forced to work for the company again.

The way Nikki's died was kind of disappointing.  Not saying they should have kept her character around (felt like they didn't know what to do with her all season) but the death scene was fairly lame.  After a promising start to the season, the whole Micha/Nikki/Monica ended up being pretty much a throwaway this season.

I'm definitely glad Sylar is back in full form.  He's the main reason to watch the show IMO.  Overall, I was very disappointed with how he was used this season.  At the end, I almost wanted him to inject himself and come back to the lab and wipe everyone out.

All in all, this season was a letdown for me.  Some glimpses of brilliance but those were few and far between.  Calling Volume 3 "Villains" is certainly promising.


----------



## Felon (Dec 5, 2007)

Here's a half-baked prediction: we'll be misled into thinking Bennet performed the assassination, but in actuality he choked, failing to carry out the order at the appointed time, which necessitated the hasty press conference execution performed by someone else.

Maybe we even get a flashback where he tries to scare Nathan out of making the speech, warning him of the price, and Nathan decides to go ahead and let destiny take its course.

I'm not sure I would like any of that, but it would be in keeping with the sort of "surprises" Heroes has delivered in the past.


----------



## fba827 (Dec 5, 2007)

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> I have a more sinister theory.  I suspect that the shooter was none other than a version of Peter from an alternate timeline!  He was dressed like Peter and (at least to my eye) looked like him.
> 
> That would also explain Ma Petrelli's comment about opening Pandora's box.
> 
> --G




I'm of the mind that it is Noah B (aka HRG) - since to me he walked like him and it would offer more story ties later - but I like your idea that they will go somewhere even more creative with this (not saying I believe that to be the case, but I do like the creative idea  ).

As for the Pandora's box... I wasn't entirely sure how to take it...
I saw it as one of two things
1) It was her way of saying " I'm talking to you calmly right now... but you've pissed me off and I'm gong to pen my can of whoop-ass on you" --- a very unlikley possibility given what we've seen of her character but I do see that as one possible interpretation
2) The more likely interpretation (to me anyway) is that 'you did this assassination in public, people will notice and question.'

I'd love to hear other interpretations (however reasonably far fetched) as to what Ma P might have meant by that ....


----------



## Taelorn76 (Dec 5, 2007)

Hand of Evil said:
			
		

> Okay, some thoughts for you...
> 
> Nathan can come back...
> a) Peter using Lenderman's (spelling) power
> ...




Just some notes

a) I don't believe Peter ever met Linderman
b) as discussed earlier Peter's blood may not work, since he is a copy
c) don't knwo how soon after death you need to inject the blod
d) Jessica's split personality was not a power, her mind could not deal with it so it split
e) how would he bring him back with out taking him to Claire


----------



## Taelorn76 (Dec 5, 2007)

fba827 said:
			
		

> I'm of the mind that it is Noah B (aka HRG) - since to me he walked like him and it would offer more story ties later - but I like your idea that they will go somewhere even more creative with this (not saying I believe that to be the case, but I do like the creative idea  ).
> 
> As for the Pandora's box... I wasn't entirely sure how to take it...
> I saw it as one of two things
> ...





How about Peter loved his brother and since he is so powerful he will destroy who did this


----------



## Felon (Dec 5, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> b) as discussed earlier Peter's blood may not work, since he is a copy



I'm not sure I get the thinking at work on that one. He has the healing ability, and it's saved his life more than once without him having to actively "load" it like it was a computer program. If he's got the power, he's got the power. The magical universal panacea blood is part of the power.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Dec 5, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> Just some notes
> 
> d) Jessica's split personality was not a power, her mind could not deal with it so it split
> e) how would he bring him back with out taking him to Claire





Peter and Lenderman, don't really know for sure, Lenderman had been around his brother and family.  I don't remember him meeting DL either but he has his power.  
d) Nathan's mind showed the same, with the mirrored Nuke Baked Nathan...so, just saying.  Also, Peter can just go off the deep end and build his brother in his mind, Bob talked about this happening.  
e) I look to him as an example, shot in head, body picked up and carried to some holding area for the Company, Mohinder giving him the blood, bingo back to life.  Don't have a timeline but bet within 24 hours you are still a go, for the old life juice.  We also have not seen everyone that works for the Company, nor their powers.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Dec 5, 2007)

Also, who is producing/writing the 9th World comic these days...or are they the Issac stuff he gave to the Delivery guy back in season one?


----------



## danzig138 (Dec 5, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> That's actually crap.



You're funny (but not in a funny way). 

I enjoyed the episode. I appreciate that Hiro made a hard choice and from the look of it in the end, he will live with the consquences of that choice for a long time. 

I think Niki's dying (no body, who knows) will be good for Micah's development into a hero, what with both of his parents dying heroically. 

Curious to know what they're going to do with Syler, and I'm glad he's back. 

Maybe Peter TK opened the door because Adam didn't say "Hey, Peter, can you get in there and grab the virus for me?" I don't think Adam wanted Peter to get to it, and I doubt he could have opened the door from the inside. Really, if you're going to complain about which power he used to open the door, phasing isn't a good one. He was around Niki when she walloped the crap out of Sylar. He should have her strength and know it. 

I hope Peter opens a ginormous can of whoopass on whoever shot Nathan (with Parkman's help). 

Yay! Sylar shot whatsherface! Boo, they fixed whatsherface. The look on his face right before he shot her was great. 

Lightning girl. Don't care. Don't like the actress, don't like the character. 

I think we haven't seen the last of flying boy. I don't know how useful fly would be for a villain, but I still think he's going to go bad (if he isn't already).

What about Caitlin? Who cares?

I hope, if we get more Heroes, we learn more about the other items in the vault.


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 5, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> I don't think so, he didn't have his power when he killed Alejandro or Candice. So, it's unlikely that he will show up with their powers.



I disagree.  He seemed to have performed surgery on candace and he might have on the twin.  Remember, he didn't have a power at first. He gave himself powers with that crude form of surgery.  so I"m sure that he did it again, but the powers are still inactive.


----------



## DonTadow (Dec 5, 2007)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Force themselves?
> 
> I watched season 1 and liked it a lot. The final 2-3 eps lagged, and the finale was bleh, but I figured they'd plot out season 2 better from the start so they didn't run into the snags of the first.
> 
> ...



By your own admission you don't like comic books, so why is it a surprise to you that you don't like a tv show based on them.  In one post you complain that the tv shows have elements of traditional superhero comic books.  Well that's what its about.  Watching special  effects filled action movies and reading a comic book is usually two different things.


----------



## Relique du Madde (Dec 5, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I disagree.  He seemed to have performed surgery on candace and he might have on the twin.  Remember, he didn't have a power at first. He gave himself powers with that crude form of surgery.  so I"m sure that he did it again, but the powers are still inactive.




I'm not sure he would be able to use the Candice's power since he technically needs to use his power to obtain the power once he lobotomizes his victim.  However, his power was not functioning at the time so he wouldn't know how the power works, or at least thats how I see it.  Unfortunately, the writers can always decide to make the power work if they wanted to make Sylar even more deadly or unstoppable... but then at that point there would be no reason to actually continue the series since he would have a "I win" button since he could theoretically trap a person in an illusion and lobotomize them without being detected.

I personally don't think Alejandro have a power, or at least, it appeared as if they retconned his having a power after several episodes since he stopped absorbing Maya's "death oil" after Maya, Syler and reappeared after a two - three episode disappearance.  After all, if Alejandro had a power when he died then why was it that they deliberately gave Maya the ability to control her ability without Alejandro's help?  To me, that made it seem as if Alejandro was just a crutch... and furthered that incestuous subtext he had going on between him and maya


----------



## Taelorn76 (Dec 6, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> I disagree.  He seemed to have performed surgery on candace and he might have on the twin.  Remember, he didn't have a power at first. He gave himself powers with that crude form of surgery.  so I"m sure that he did it again, but the powers are still inactive.



Sylar did have a power, His power was to understand how other powers work, and then add the power to him mind.


----------



## Steel_Wind (Dec 6, 2007)

Relique du Madde said:
			
		

> I'm not sure he would be able to use the Candice's power since he technically needs to use his power to obtain the power once he lobotomizes his victim.  However, his power was not functioning at the time so he wouldn't know how the power works, or at least thats how I see it.




We've been through this before.

While it is possible your interpretation is right, Sylar's reaction at the time suggests otherwise. Sylar poked around in her brains and believed he understood how her power worked. He then tried to use it and was SURPRISED it did not work.

Sylar's surprise is triggered not when he uses his native power to figure out how things work - but when he tries to use the flashy power of illusion.

That's a distinction with a difference.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 6, 2007)

DonTadow said:
			
		

> By your own admission you don't like comic books, so why is it a surprise to you that you don't like a tv show based on them.  In one post you complain that the tv shows have elements of traditional superhero comic books.  Well that's what its about.  Watching special  effects filled action movies and reading a comic book is usually two different things.




By my own admission? I'm not sure how else to put it, so let me try once more.

Comics are fine. Crappy Comics are crappy.

Heroes is emulating Crappy Comics.

Heroes is Crappy.

There, simple enough?

I like movies based on comics, but I should expect less from TV shows based on comics? Because "using the worst tropes of comic books" is somehow the same as "based on comics"?

I read comics for years, before the mainstream stuff turned me off, now I don't read them anymore. I've looked into a few that would be worthwhile, but get turned off by the price compared to how long it takes to read them, and how infrequent they are published. A weekly TV show seems like a good outlet for that.


----------



## fba827 (Dec 6, 2007)

Taelorn76 said:
			
		

> How about Peter loved his brother and since he is so powerful he will destroy who did this




Oh yes! Good one.  I had also thought that but forgot to list it.


----------



## Wormwood (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, saw it last night.

Fooled me twice. Shame on _me_.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Dec 10, 2007)

I just finished watching what they've shown of season 2 between yesterday and today.

There are some good moments but overall it was terrible. Over on RPG.net they were asking what powers would people like to see and I said common sense.

1. Peter is an idiot. In many, many, many ways.

1a. Don't phase through the door or anything Pete.

1b. Don't read Hiro's mind to see what he knows Pete.

1c. Don't ask the more experienced time traveller to help you get your old lady back or anything Pete.

Sylar, and the wonder twins whole arc could've been clipped and I don't think the season would've been any less for it. Missing him for the whole season and just having him show up would've been more of a treat as now we've just seen him more and more and still a tool. Still too 'super villiany'. With all the evidence he's been leaving behind, he'd be quickly busted. He has no fast method of movement and once he's out in the open everything changes no?

So Nathan is a drunk.... but wait, he spent most of that time healing. So what was he? A drunk for two minutes or something?

The whole four months latter and the eventually flashbacks were poorly handled.

Hiro jumping back in time in the first place and then coming back four months latter was stupid.

Adam simply not killing Hiro as a teen or anything also seemed stupid. I know, someone's going to go, "But Adam didn't know when Hiro went back in time so didn't want to screw that up." If so, Adam would NEVER kill Hiro and make sure he was safe at least till he was much older.

Lots of potential, lots of missed opportunities.

Season three has a lot to deliver on.


----------



## GSHamster (Dec 10, 2007)

Heh, one thing about the vault is that it could be vacuum sealed.  That's not that much of stretch for a vault containing a virus of such deadliness.

Thus phasing through the door would not have been a good solution for Peter.


----------



## Fast Learner (Dec 10, 2007)

Seems unlikely, what with the vault containing all kinds of things (including that brain in a jar), and many things don't do well in a vacuum (e.g. explode).

Don't get me wrong, maybe there was some great explanation. If there was, though, it needed to be explained or hinted at. Not an unreasonable request of the writing and directing, imo.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Dec 10, 2007)

GSHamster said:
			
		

> Heh, one thing about the vault is that it could be vacuum sealed.  That's not that much of stretch for a vault containing a virus of such deadliness.
> 
> Thus phasing through the door would not have been a good solution for Peter.




And he couldn't tumble the locks either?

Or simply use radiation to kill the virus through the wall.

Or teleport.

Or or or or or or or or or or or.....

It was bad.


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 10, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> And he couldn't tumble the locks either?
> Or simply use radiation to kill the virus through the wall.
> Or teleport.




Just because people don't act like a Special Forces operative and choose the most optimal solution within microseconds when they are confronted with a problem doesn't make them stupid. It's like listening to D&D players dissect a book and call all the character idiots because they react as people would instead of machines; it's armchair quarterbacking at it's worst. They call writers stupid or lazy when it's really their own blindness as to how drama and tension are built and maintained, and how characters or plot are developed. This is why most D&D players that try to write turn out to be terrible at it. In fact they're worse than terrible at it. 

Tumbling the locks? Having TK doesn't magically grant him the knowledge of the combination. Nor does it give him X-ray vision to see how the thing is constructed.

Radiation? Enough radiation to go through a bank vault door would also kill everyone around him, if he's even good enough to generate that much radiation without blowing up again. I'm surprised he had the guts to turn on that power again.

I'm not even sure that Peter _knows _ he can teleport, yet. I don't think he's ever done it; he's never stumbled onto the 'space' part of Hiro's Space/Time Control power. Remember that just because he has a power doesn't mean he knows how it works. He still has at least, what, five or six powers he doesn't even know he has. 

Yes, he could phase through but (1) it isn't as cool and (2) he doesn't know what the virus looks like or where it is. I'm not sure he was calm enough to do both himself and Adam anyway but that gets beside the point: appropriate drama and tension almost require that the door be open. So we can have the confrontation that occurs. Remember: characters without the appropriate training, preperation and attitude always doing the correct, perfect thing like they were looking at things in the third person and were removed from time contraints is bad writing. 

Peter's come a long way in learning how to use his various powers, but remember that he has a harder road than anyone else does. Sylar's power by it's very nature seems to give him control very, very quickly. Peter has to learn like everyone else has, but he has a lot more to absorb. Also, rememeber that almost everyone's power is governed by their emotional state and Peter seems way more high-strung than most of the others. He's very reactive instead of proactive, and operates on an emotional level rather than an intellectual level most of the time: that's a prime facet of his character and also what keeps him from being an overbalanced ubermensch. That emotional swing lets him use his powers in an instinctual way but half the time when he _tries _ to use them, he fails because he's thinking about it too much. He only really cuts loose when he's scared or when he's pissed off. We saw the same thing with Hiro in Season One but Hiro has grown up more than Peter has. In many ways Peter is still the kid he was in Season One. He's gotten _better _ at that, too, but people don't change overnight and the writer's seem to get that.


----------



## Darkwolf71 (Dec 10, 2007)

Also, as far as phasing goes, Peter has no idea he can take some one with him. I mean we're all D&D players here. We can separate _Player_ knowledge from _Character_ knowledge. Right? Why is it, we so often expect tv or movie characters to act differently? The same goes for the kvetching about "Claire already had the 'hate daddy arc' last year". Guess what? She's a teenager. She likely has a hate daddy arc a dozen times a day. Know what else? She'll have one again when she finds out dear old dad killed Nathan.


----------



## WayneLigon (Dec 10, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Also, as far as phasing goes, Peter has no idea he can take some one with him.




He does; that's how he gets Adam and himself out of the Company prison. I _think _ he does it at least one other time but I can't remember right off hand. He seems to have to work himself up to do it, though.


----------



## Vocenoctum (Dec 10, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I just finished watching what they've shown of season 2 between yesterday and today.
> 
> There are some good moments but overall it was terrible. Over on RPG.net they were asking what powers would people like to see and I said common sense.





The thing is, there's really no discussion. If folks like the stuff, then it's easily explained away with;
1) You're using knowledge they don't have. (Sure, most of the powers are used via instinct, and they've had a year to work with them, but it's perfectly understandable that Peter would read everyones mind except Adam during the long boring drives with Adam. Because we as an audience know Adam is bad, but Peter doesn't know anything about him, so it's normal human intuition to blindly trust folks.)

2) It's a comic book, dummy! (This is used to explain all the bad and inconsistent stuff, it's all comic book tropes.)

3) Well, it coulda been... (This is where they find an explanation that was never in the show and there is no evidence to support, but it's perfectly possible that Sylar vacuum sealed the vault when he was off-camera to keep the virus intact for when he needed it. He did this all through his future self that eventually gains Hiro's power.)


As for missed plot elements, there is a symbol that continually presents itself with no outside influence. God Send apparently is not interesting to any of the characters. Hiro has encountered it a few times, 5 Years Past had no mention of it, and it was blood inked on pictures without a question. Is it just Adams Mark or something? They don't say, and apparently none of the characters care.

Suresh's found that certain genetic markers showed the potential for powers, are these markers "the Adam trait" or simply show descent from the "Great Heroes" of some mythic age or something? Are the powers based on genetic code, or is it just the ability to manipulate some energy source that permeates the world?

Apparently, that all seems to take a back seat to researching the non-contagious virus and building strains that can wipe out all life.


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## Dire Bare (Dec 10, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Just because people don't act like a Special Forces operative and choose the most optimal solution within microseconds when they are confronted with a problem doesn't make them stupid. It's like listening to D&D players dissect a book and call all the character idiots because they react as people would instead of machines; it's armchair quarterbacking at it's worst. They call writers stupid or lazy when it's really their own blindness as to how drama and tension are built and maintained, and how characters or plot are developed. This is why most D&D players that try to write turn out to be terrible at it. In fact they're worse than terrible at it.
> 
> Tumbling the locks? Having TK doesn't magically grant him the knowledge of the combination. Nor does it give him X-ray vision to see how the thing is constructed.
> 
> ...



You've summed up my thoughts perfectly.  Thanks!


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## Felon (Dec 10, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Just because people don't act like a Special Forces operative and choose the most optimal solution within microseconds when they are confronted with a problem doesn't make them stupid.



No, but that extreme behavior is not how anyone's suggesting Peter should act, so you're without a point on that count. Failing to exercise reasonable degrees of intelligence is what makes one stupid.

You start off doing OK in your counter-arguement, but then you allow yourself an easy cop-out when you throw out "it isn't as cool" as a defense--unless, of course, you're suggesting that doing the coolest possible thing is a priority for Peter himself, not his writers.

Admittedly though, the handling of the vault isn't nearly as big of a non sequitor as the way the assassination played out.



			
				Dire Bare said:
			
		

> You've summed up my thoughts perfectly.  Thanks!



To reiterate from a couple of pages back:



			
				Felon said:
			
		

> There is a real double-standard that I see about Heroes in these threads. If the characters act stupidly or display bathos, somebody defends the show for portraying the characters as real people, not larger-than-life comic book characters.
> 
> Then when the show has its moments where something is handled in a ham-handed manner for dramatic purposes, somebody jumps forth to defend it as being very true to its comic-book inspirations.
> 
> And sometimes it's the same darn person.


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## Grog (Dec 11, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Just because people don't act like a Special Forces operative and choose the most optimal solution within microseconds when they are confronted with a problem doesn't make them stupid.



No, doing stupid things makes them stupid. Peter not reading Adam's mind to find out the truth after he had multiple people tell him Adam was a bad guy was stupid. Alejandro confronting a confessed murderer alone in a secluded area without a weapon or a plan of any kind was stupid. Maya trusting Sylar over her own brother was stupid. Any number of things Mohinder did this season were stupid. And on and on.



			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Yes, he could phase through but (1) it isn't as cool and (2) he doesn't know what the virus looks like or where it is. I'm not sure he was calm enough to do both himself and Adam anyway but that gets beside the point: appropriate drama and tension almost require that the door be open. So we can have the confrontation that occurs.



Yes, that's it exactly. Peter had to be out in the hallway and not in the vault so that Nathan could reach him, talk to him, and convince him that Adam wanted to release the virus. Unfortunately, that's a concern that's completely external to the story. There was no reason within the context of the story for Peter not to just phase through the vault door. The only reason he didn't do it is because the writers needed him to be out in the hallway.

When you let concerns outside the story influence what happens in the story, that's bad writing, plain and simple.



			
				WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Remember: characters without the appropriate training, preperation and attitude always doing the correct, perfect thing like they were looking at things in the third person and were removed from time contraints is bad writing.



I don't want the characters to always do "the correct, perfect thing." I want them to act like people with functioning brains. That didn't happen this season.


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## Brown Jenkin (Dec 11, 2007)

The solution I came up with to Peter actually relates to Mohinder. Since Mohinder's sister was somehow powered and responsible for the Shanti virus then genetically Mohinder probably has a super power too, the question is just what is it. My answer is Super Stupidity. If people can have super iinteligence, then why not super stupidity. Mohinder has certainly displayed way more stupidity than a normal person. So since Peter absorbs other peoples powers (with some working automatically like the regeneration) he has absorbed Mohinder's Super Stupdity and can't turn it off.


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## Darkwolf71 (Dec 11, 2007)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> He does; that's how he gets Adam and himself out of the Company prison. I _think _ he does it at least one other time but I can't remember right off hand. He seems to have to work himself up to do it, though.



Hm, I forgot about the escape from the company.  :\


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## Psion (Dec 11, 2007)

Umbran said:
			
		

> I think what Hiro did makes him less a hero.  He could have been merciful, and he wasn't.  That's sad.




I think one of the main points/"signature moves" of Heroes is showing you most characters in both an unsympathetic and sympathetic light. In season 1, HRG was a big example of this. In season 2, I went from thinking of Veronica Mars Elle as a dispensable annoyance of a character to someone I am interested in seeing develop.



> And I preferred Sylar the way he was in Volume 2.  He was a far more interesting character.  I am not looking forward to him in Volume 3, to be honest.




I'm not looking forward to it either. Sylar was interesting, but I, too, think he's "done" unless they come up with a fresh angle.



			
				Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Interesting side note: Adams "death" is pretty similar to the death of another show the same actor played in (Alias) - immortal but trapped forever...




I noticed that...



> I am still a bit disappointed that it's really supposed to be possible to kill Adam by blowing off his head. But we might never learn the truth about that.




Oh, you just know he's going to be back. I look forward to a scene where Hiro sticks him through the head with his sword.


On other topics...

I don't share the Niki hate, but was disappointed they didn't find anything interesting to do with her this season. I wonder if she's really done. I wonder if somehow she'll turn out to be the third Peter/Sylar type character (each personality a different power...) Niki is my wife's favorite character.

The Monica/Micah storyline has potential, hope they go somewhere good with it.

I wonder if over the course of the series, we see pivotal characters like Matt evolve into the next generation of Linderman/Ma Pitrelli types in the name of protecting those they care about.

Good lord I'm bored with the Claire storyline. It needs a fresh direction, too.

West needs to go.


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## RangerWickett (Dec 11, 2007)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> The solution I came up with to Peter actually relates to Mohinder. Since Mohinder's sister was somehow powered and responsible for the Shanti virus then genetically Mohinder probably has a super power too, the question is just what is it. My answer is Super Stupidity. If people can have super iinteligence, then why not super stupidity. Mohinder has certainly displayed way more stupidity than a normal person. So since Peter absorbs other peoples powers (with some working automatically like the regeneration) he has absorbed Mohinder's Super Stupdity and can't turn it off.




lol


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## TheLe (Dec 12, 2007)

Darkwolf71 said:
			
		

> Yes, Heroes is very comic book. I guess you either like that or you don't.




Alot of comic books today are written much much smarter than Heroes. Shoot, there are children's daytime tv shows that are written smarter than Heroes.


~Le


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## DonTadow (Dec 13, 2007)

Grog said:
			
		

> No, doing stupid things makes them stupid. Peter not reading Adam's mind to find out the truth after he had multiple people tell him Adam was a bad guy was stupid. Alejandro confronting a confessed murderer alone in a secluded area without a weapon or a plan of any kind was stupid. Maya trusting Sylar over her own brother was stupid. Any number of things Mohinder did this season were stupid. And on and on.
> 
> 
> Yes, that's it exactly. Peter had to be out in the hallway and not in the vault so that Nathan could reach him, talk to him, and convince him that Adam wanted to release the virus. Unfortunately, that's a concern that's completely external to the story. There was no reason within the context of the story for Peter not to just phase through the vault door. The only reason he didn't do it is because the writers needed him to be out in the hallway.
> ...



 I've met people in real life who've been my frfiends for some time and take the actions of some new person their dating over my word.  Guy or girl.  So that wasn't so bad.  Thought i'd have liked to have seen a scene, it was talked about earlier how the old heroes know howto block that power. That was demonstrated by two other heroes, which makes me believe that adam had it too, probably better.  I've seen comic book villains who could resist a heroes powers. 
Also know that adam was munipulating Parkman's dad, a stronger mind reader. That also lets me know that adam may have a strong resistance to the mind reading than others. Remember its only surface thoughts. 
Blame the quick story arc for the messups not the usual work of the writers.  

As for the phasing power, i'm betting there is a limit to how thick you can phase.  I don't think peter or anyone else wants to test the limitations of that power. 

I got to agree with the the person you're responding too (everthing but mohinder, he was an idiot this season whose motives consistently changed- but that was because they had not quite developed mohinder and molly's relationship deeply enough where we would believe he was that stupid)


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