# Death of the LGS



## gamersgambit (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm a gaming retailer.

Most of my revenue comes from Magic: The Gathering (roughly 40%) with a smaller (20-25%) amount coming from D&D and D&D Minis.

Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Borders, and the other deep-discount big box stores are killing my desire to support D&D slowly.

Think of them as Wal-Mart, only worse.  Buying your stuff at WalMart certainly saves you money, and may put local retailers out of business but they provide very little other than product (and tax base for your community, but few people apparently care about that).

On the other hand, your FLGS--me, people like me--are the cradle of the gaming population.  It is through us, and the locations we provide for players to come and play--valuable retail space we pay rent on and which could easily be retasked for more retail space--that provides the continuing growth of new D&D players and roleplayers in general.  I often find myself migrating Magic players and boardgame players on to D&D as a fun and exciting new game, and in order to do this, I run demo games for them and provide them a place to play.

But the sales of the books decrease every time someone decides that they prefer the discount from a website or big box store.  I've resorted to sending people out to the local BB stores to put my business cards in their copies of 4.0 books and elsewhere as advertising.

When the sales of the books decrease, I get more and more tempted to convert all that nice gaming space into space for more retail products.  Spending the space to display my D&D books in an attractive manner rather than spine-out like the big box stores do becomes less attractive, too, which would continue to lower my sales.

So I put it to you:  Support your LGS.  It's the birthplace of the next generation of gamers, unless you really WANT 5.0 and 6.0 to become *completely* focused on duplicating MMORPGS because the only market left becomes people who play online.

Scott


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## Imperialus (Jun 27, 2008)

As long as I'm comfortable adding an F in front of LGS then I'll buy 90% of my books there.  The onus is just as much on you guys though to make your into a place where gamers feel it's worthwhile to pay the markup.  Turn your store into a community for gamers, not just a store.  Make sure your staff are friendly, knowledgeable and attentive.  Give players gaming space.  Host events.  All sorts of stuff like that.

That's the only way you'll get the customers you want.


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## Scribe Ineti (Jun 27, 2008)

Unfortunately, my LGS isn't all that F. And they can't compete with the deep discounts Amazon is able to offer.  While I don't buy any RPG books from my LGS, I do buy the occasional mini, board game, and card game there.  They do get some of my gaming budget, but not all of it.  I save money where I can, and that means going to Amazon and other discount retailers for products my LGS charges full price for.


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## F5 (Jun 27, 2008)

Speaking as a customer, and not a store owner, you may be looking at the situation backwards, Gamersgambit.

The gaming space you provide, the demos you run, the shelf layout that showcases cool stuff better than the Big Box stores do...that's the stuff that keeps your customers coming to you in the first place.  You don't want to say "I'm losing out on retail space, and can't afford to do this stuff"...you can't afford NOT to do that stuff, or what reason to gamers have to come in and support you?

It sounds like you run a great place, and I wish there was one like yours near me.  My own FLGS closed up shop when they raised the rent on them (by an obscene amount), and they couldn't keep up.  Now my options are a 15-20 minute drive to one of several comic shops with crummy RPG selection, Borders, or Amazon.com.   So, now I go with whatever's cheapest, but it's a sad loss.  

Is there any way to make your gaming space help to pay for itself?  Maybe some spiffy pre-gridded, whiteboard-topped game tables, maybe with internet access to get to DDI/whatever, or a projector for maps...get a really great game table set-up, and then charge an hourly fee to use it?  Would that work at all, do you think, or would people just ignore it?


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## SCMrks (Jun 27, 2008)

My LGS went out of business. After 4th ed was annouced the sell of 3.5 books declined to the point that my LGS was closed by Christmas.


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## Lhorgrim (Jun 27, 2008)

I buy everything I can get at my FLGS.  I want to support it as much as possible because it's the only game store within about 40 minutes of my town.

I admit that I was an Amazon/Wal-Mart buyer for 3.0 and 3.5.  My FLGS didn't exist yet, and I really did not have the money to drive to the other stores and pay full retail.  Books had just gotten too expensive for me.  Since then I've been promoted and can afford more gaming related purchases.  Trust me, I'll do all I can to preserve my FLGS as long as they continue to care about me as a gamer and a customer.


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## Mallus (Jun 27, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> On the other hand, your FLGS--me, people like me--are the cradle of the gaming population.



I'm really not trying to be mean, GG, but this isn't true for me or the people I game with. It would be more accurate to say the ENWorld and places like it are the 'cradle of gaming' (outside of actual families). It's here that I found a whole host of good people to game with in my area, people who became real friends over the years. Game stores simply don't factor into our social network (at least, anymore).

I don't think my experiences are uncommon.


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## dpmcalister (Jun 27, 2008)

I just wish I had an FLGS. I've got an LGS, but it is far from friendly and I will never darken it's door again!


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## neceros (Jun 27, 2008)

I bought my books from GameOn. Closest thing to a LGS for me. I even canceled my Amazon order to do so.


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## Korgoth (Jun 27, 2008)

gg: Long post warning. A bit rantish, but not really... and I wish you all the best in your business endeavors.

The hobby is in a weird place right now.  When I got into gaming, D&D was sold at Toys 'R Us.  That's a place where kids (at the time, anyway... I don't know what they're like anymore) used to browse for cool stuff.  Or I did anyway.  And I got into gaming through my friends of similar age.  Although I didn't really read comics (except Star Wars sometimes), comics were sold at the gas station.  If there were comic/game stores, I didn't even know they existed.  I did learn of them eventually, however.

Now, you do at least have D&D stuff sold at the local corporate book store, but I don't see kids browsing in those aisles.  Just other people about my age (mid 30s).

So how do the next generation of gamers learn about D&D?  And if they do learn about it, they certainly can't start with the materials available now.  I started with the Moldvay box.  That book was only 64 pages and that's still a bit tough even on a precocious 8 year old.  The new ones?  Forget it.

And, no offense OP, but you say that if we support the FLGS, somehow that will stop 5E and 6E from being total crapola?  I don't see that making any difference.  D&D is no longer in the hands of gamers.  We're back to a Lorraine Williams scenario.  Supporting (or not) the FLGS won't make any difference.

Also, many LGSs are not the Friendly, or if they are friendly, they're not that smart.  I remember going in to the largest, most storied FLGS in my town asking about H1 (KoTS) before it came out.  This was like a few weeks or a month before release.  And they didn't know what I was talking about.  Many of these places are circling the drain of customer service in one way or another.  That suggests to me that the whole 'industry' of the LGS is falling apart.

Beyond that... how can you compete with the online boys?  They give 40% or 45% off most stuff and they bring it to your house.  The latter is an added bonus because it probably costs me $4+ to take a trip to the LGS.  So just add 5 bucks to the price of everything.  And since most trips there are wasted anyway... see above.

The bottom line is, without a viable business model you're bascially asking for charity.  You're saying that if consumers artifically pump up your business by paying more than they otherwise would, you'll stay in business and certain intangibles will accrue to the hobby as a whole.  Even if that's true (and it may not be... I might just lay out extra cash so that when you do go under you have a softer cushion), I personally don't get a lot out of it, as I'll explain.

See, nowadays I have to ask: what is the hobby "industry" to me?  I like OD&D, Classic Traveller, a few other odds and ends (maybe some T&T, some CoC, some Encounter Critical).  What do I need from the "industry"?  For WOTC to sell me a version of D&D that's not as good as the stuff I've already got?  For Mungoose to sell me a munged and goosed version of Traveller when I already have the golden classics?  I can get along fine without the industry.

Maybe it will all fall apart and game design will go back to the garage.  Fine by me.  S. John Ross could have produced Encounter Critical in his garage (God bless him!) and my print copy is from Lulu.  OD&D, the single best role playing game product ever, is quite obviously a garage product.  Why should I support the "industry", the FLGS or any of the slick, modern husks of games that go with them?  What have they done for me?  Maybe if it goes back to the garage (or the internet), the current high-entry cost, glossy, over produced products will go away and we'll be back to cheap, quirky fan efforts that might just charm their way back to popularity.


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## Jedi_Solo (Jun 27, 2008)

I didn't have any stores participate in Free RPG day in my area, but a friend of mine lived by two stores that did.  A bunch of us got together and hung (and visited both stores for free stuff).  The difference between the two stores was incredable and if I visited either one again I know which it would be.

The first location onlyhad a few of the free quick start guides left (and one WotC module).  It was clean and well organized.  Though I never been there before after a couple of minutes I pretty well had the layout figured out.  It was well lit and had quite the friendly atmosphere. There had a Magic Tournament going in a decent sized gaming area.  The staff had polo shirts as a kind of uniform; they were clean cut and quite friendly when we walked in.  As we browsed for stuff to buy as athank you for free loot I'm fairly sure everyone in our five person group was asked if needed anything (there were two or three people staffing the store).

The second store we stopped by still had the WotC minis and Dungeon Tiles to give out (neither place had the dice interstingly enough).  It was quite obvious why fewer people had stopped here.  It wasn't nearly as well lit (it wasn't 'dark' but the light was definately dimmer).  The front had (according to my friend) was just finishing some remodeling so the clutter there gets a pass, but even with that the back end "felt" dirtier that the first store.  There was a gaming area (not enough room - but still...).  There was one person manning store with an unkept beard.  His clothes were clean but they were a T-Shirt and jeans.  Nothing wrong per se with this - but compared to the polo shirt and khakis of the last place it seemed a step down, and I thought the one other person in the store when we walked in was staff until he left a few minutes later.  The organization was cluttered to say the least.  The comic books were very neatly organized but everything else felt like a missmash.  The D&D books were on one shelf but the minis were else where (and so on).

I bought stuff at both locations to thank them for the free swag.  I had never visited either location before so these were my first impressions.  I know where my first stop would be if I was looking for something.  The first store was cleaner, friendlier, better organized and came off as much more professional.  It's a store that I would like to support and maybe the next time I'm visiting I may ask to head out there.  The second location had a few more oddities and geeky stuff, but in the end I wasn't impressed.

The first location worked to give me a good impression and it did, I hope to at some point in the future help it survive.  The second store was there and... well... that is about all I can say.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 27, 2008)

Here is my problem I *had* 2 GSs, one Local and Friendly, the other one not so Friendly and not so local. 

The one that was closer (the Game Daze at Fashion Square Mall went out of business), they were quite friendly with me and went out of their way to help me acquire OOP stuff and on the cheap too. I bought my copy of GURPS Traveller from them for about $7.50, in brand new condition no less. 

The other Game Daze (the one at Paradise Valley Mall) can't keep product stocked. I'm surprised that when they moved to other end of the mall, they actually had enough revenue to pull it off. The day 4E was released I lucked out to be going to the store, but they didn't have it in stock. Regardless of the fact that I'm not switching to 4E, I do want the books so that I can liberally yoink from it what I do like for my 3E homebrew. Before that I had went to them to get my hands on KotS to preview 4E and that was on May 22nd. They didn't have it in stock! They had to special order it for me. 

So really, I'm *stuck* using amazon because of rising gas prices and because idiot requisitioners.


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## philreed (Jun 27, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> So I put it to you:  Support your LGS.  It's the birthplace of the next generation of gamers, unless you really WANT 5.0 and 6.0 to become *completely* focused on duplicating MMORPGS because the only market left becomes people who play online.




It's not enough just to ask gamers to support you. You've got to support gamers. You need an open gaming area. You need to sell drinks and snacks. You need a sign that says "No Outside Food or Drinks." You need to stay open late enough that people can take advantage of your open gaming area.

You need in-store demos. Contact companies and ask for support. Run tournaments. Hand out prizes.

Become a destination site where gamers want to spend their weekends. A place where gamers want to actually play games.

These days, the best thing a store can provide is reliable, clean gaming space. A mini-con every day.


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## Shining Dragon (Jun 27, 2008)

Strangely enough, any store (Borders mainly here in Sydney, haven't seen other large stores selling rpgs, at least within the past few years) that does sell RPGs sells them at a higher price than my LGS (and with the exchange rate for AUD changing over the years the books on Borders shelves stay highly priced whereas the prices at my LGSs drop).

I don't have an answer to online stores, my LGS (and other stores in Australia) also have an online presence although prices aren't discounted (just free shipping around Australia). With the better exchange rate I can now order stuff that I cannot get through my LGS (Spirit of the Century, for example).


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jun 27, 2008)

I'm afraid I have no sympathy.  I've yet to have a LGS that provided sufficient services that I was willing to forgo the convenience and discount of online shopping for the majority of products.  I've supported the one or two stores that did offer products that I couldn't get easily online (mostly out-of-print stuff), but it wasn't something I couldn't live without.  I wasn't introduced to gaming via a LGS, yetI've introduced family and friends to gaming over the years, growing the hobby without a gaming store. I've gone my entire gaming career without needing a LGS, so if every one went out of business tomorrow I'm not sure I'd notice.  

Frankly, I find the tactic of trying to guilt customers into supporting you -- rather than providing the goods and services that would cause them to support you freely -- to be only slightly less reprehensible than suing your customers for lack of support.


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## Mark Hope (Jun 27, 2008)

I play in two groups at present - both owe their genesis to the internet, not to the flgs.  In fact, I've never had a group that started because of an flgs, so my personal experience is not that the flgs is the cradle of gaming.  I am lucky to have a very nice flgs, but I still get almost all of my gaming stuff online.  Why?  This is why:



Korgoth said:


> ... how can you compete with the online boys?  They give 40% or 45% off most stuff and they bring it to your house.  The latter is an added bonus because it probably costs me $4+ to take a trip to the LGS.  So just add 5 bucks to the price of everything.




This is the _absolute_ bottom line for me.  If the online retailer were only offering 5%-10% off, then it would maybe be worth it to go to the flgs instead.  But 40% or more?  Sorry, but the flgs doesn't stand a chance.  And I _am_ sorry for you guys, I really am, but I can't afford to ignore savings of those kinds.  Nobody needs reminding how tight money is these days, how expensive petrol is.  But if I'm saving $15 on every purchase of a hardcover(or, rather, the equivalent in £s) then that's a no-brainer.

So all the other issues fall by the wayside when faced with the simple fact of economics.  Good luck to you and all that, but that's the bottom line.


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## noretoc (Jun 27, 2008)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> I'm afraid I have no sympathy.  I've yet to have a LGS that provided sufficient services that I was willing to forgo the convenience and discount of online shopping for the majority of products.  I've supported the one or two stores that did offer products that I couldn't get easily online (mostly out-of-print stuff), but it wasn't something I couldn't live without.  I wasn't introduced to gaming via a LGS, yetI've introduced family and friends to gaming over the years, growing the hobby without a gaming store. I've gone my entire gaming career without needing a LGS, so if every one went out of business tomorrow I'm not sure I'd notice.
> 
> Frankly, I find the tactic of trying to guilt customers into supporting you -- rather than providing the goods and services that would cause them to support you freely -- to be only slightly less reprehensible than suing your customers for lack of support.




Wow that was rough.  Unfortunatley I agree in a less scathing way.  I have had a few local stores where I live.  One of them is run by a couple of people who care more about being in charge then getting you what you want.  That have foolish rules, and treat thier customers like children. Another one, sells more than just game.  He sells sci-fi/fantasy books (used and new) and allows trade.  He sells shirts, novelties all game related.  I go there as often as I can.  Unfortunatley that store is 30 mins away, and the cost in gas makes it thet much harder to spend what little dispoable income I do have there.  

If you want more customers, make you store a place your customers want to go.  If you are having trouble learning how to do that, you might be in the wrong business.


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## Storminator (Jun 27, 2008)

I suggest that you put a link to your store in your sig. And put your location in your profile. 

At let us look you up while you're posting!

PS


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## pg13 (Jun 28, 2008)

I have sympathy.  Little good it'll do, but I do have sympathy.

There's no point in counting on loyalty to an outdated business model.  It didn't work for independent book stores, it didn't work for independent music retailers...it won't work in the hobby/game industry.

But, like I said...I have sympathy--as I was a manager at a very cool independent music retailer in Seattle for ten years...and we recognized that there were areas in which we simply could not compete with the Big Box stores or the on-line behemoths.

Tout as we might our superior service and product knowledge, there's no way to make someone buy something that is more expensive from you, and certainly not based on any sense of assumed loyalty or inherent obligation.  

The only useful product purchasing decision you might have an edge on, against the dominant factor of price, is convenience--and that's assuming that you actually have the product that a customer wants at the exact moment that they want it.  No one is going to special order something from you that they could order from Amazon at a discount.

That doesn't mean that there isn't value in service or product knowledge--the key to any independent retailer is in using your superior product knowledge to help an indecisive consumer make decisions...to suggest additional or alternate products that no program could make a similar connection.  

...but the simple truth is that this is a war of attrition that the independent retailer is unlikely to survive.  

The larger truth is that as a business owner, you aren't entitled to be a profitable enterprise.  You, like every business, have to figure out if there is something that you can offer that enough people want to pay you for...(and specifically you...not someone else...and certainly not "no one".)  If there is, and you let them know you have it and you make it available to them in a way that they can, in fact, pay you for it...then you're good for the moment--but it's a Sisyphean struggle that will NEVER end.

pg--Happy to have joined enworld, sorry for the lengthy first post.--seattle

PS--I grew up in a small town in Wisconsin.  We didn't have a game store when I was in junior high and the D&D thing happened.  We had a hobby/craft store that stocked the OD&D pamphlets...and then the blue box...and then the AD&D books.  No product knowledge, no suggestive sales...just a box full of stuff that the people buying pipe cleaners, styrofoam balls and yarn happened to have in their store.

I don't visit my home town often, but the last time I did, I noticed that the hobby/craft store is still there...but they haven't sold gaming supplies in over twenty years.

PPS--The music retailer that I helped manage eventually did give up a couple of years ago.  They gave it a good run...and, I think that with a couple of tweaks, could still be in business today...but you need to have the enthusiasm to enter the battle...and willing to adapt to an ever shifting battlefield.  

Long gone are the days when an independent retailer could even dream of just sitting back, getting fat and raking in the money...  Barring another Magic-esque cash cow, profit margins are going to be thin and frightening.  Time to min/max your adventuring attributes, retailers!


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## DaveMage (Jun 28, 2008)

Sorry - as cold as it sounds, I don't need an LGS.

The internet has made such a place irrelevant to me.

LGS product is overpriced and the selection can't compare to online vendors.


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## ProfessorCirno (Jun 28, 2008)

For what it's worth, I still shop at my FLGS.  Fifteen bucks isn't as important to me as a robust gaming community.


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## Corjay (Jun 28, 2008)

As harsh as some of these posts sound, they have a valid point.

FLGS need to compete. If the current model you are using isn't working, then get a new business model.

Here are things customers are willing to pay for:

Knowledgeable staff
Great customer service
Gaming tables (I would actually rent out tables for RPG's at reasonable prices, like a pool hall)
Have the special order book within arm's reach at all times.
Wireless Internet
Food & Drinks (Typically in the form of vending machines)
Tournaments
Local Gaming Scene Information (Particularly if it's carefully monitored and organized)
Free Demonstrations
Cork Boards for local games kept clean and up to date
The latest Gaming Posters (Both on the walls and for sale)
Good lighting
Exciting Atmosphere
Family Friendly
Diverse Products
Available Products
Information on where to find the product if you don't have it available and the customer needs it NOW. (Don't underestimate the value of information. If you have the info, guess where they're going to come for it.)

These are creative ways to diversify your FLGS:

Gift cards for your store
Credit accounts (Credit cards if you can. See a bank for small business needs.)
Special Events with giveaways.
Discount Cards available with memberships in special store events
Teaming up with other FLGS to hold events and help mitigate the costs for the above-mentioned cards and deals.
Have a relay system and open communication with other FLGS
Increase the speed by which you get products by knowing where local Amazon (and other distributors) wearhouses are.
Give sneak peaks and insider information to customers who buy similar products.
Get a consultant to advise on how to improve the appearance and efficiency in your store. You can even go to other stores in a 60 mile radius to see how they do things and how well it does for them. Heck, you should even ask them what works for them and what doesn't.
Sell Espresso/Lattes
Get a small business loan to carry out any of these things.
Sell common board games
Have flier campaigns distributed to middle income and upper middle income families.
Create ways for helping those in lower income brackets to maintain their hobby.

It is not the customer's responsibility to buy from the FLGS. It is the responsibility of the FLGS to make it attractive for the customer to buy from the FLGS.


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## mhacdebhandia (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> On the other hand, your FLGS--me, people like me--are the cradle of the gaming population.  It is through us, and the locations we provide for players to come and play--valuable retail space we pay rent on and which could easily be retasked for more retail space--that provides the continuing growth of new D&D players and roleplayers in general.



This is true in a great many places, but it's not true in all of them. In Sydney, I would easily nominate university gaming societies as the largest driving force. None of the stores in the city are "community centres", as far as I can tell, and of the two in the suburbs that I can think of which *do* provide gaming space, one of them has recently changed ownership, suggesting that it wasn't hugely successful for whatever reason.


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## Rhianni32 (Jun 28, 2008)

The most successful ones in my town have embraced the gaming mentality. They dont just sell RPG books.
RPGs, CCGs, minis, comic books, anime, used versions of all of the above.  They have wotc sanctioned tournaments for rankings and in seperate rooms not just a darkened corner.  Cold soda, chips and snacks are for sale. Not many go down to a lgs looking for a rpg game to play these days.  But a pick up game of Magic and making friends that can expand out into RPGs does happen more often.  OP you make it sound like you are selling out to the man because you sell CCGs. 

I support a FLGS.  As others have posted I dont support a LGS.
I dont want to get into a conversation about anyone's campaign. I dont want to know what your favorite anime movie is. I would like to flip through a book to decide if its what I want.

One advantage a LGS has over the internet is that you can read a book and get a good idea of the book. I can understand about not overstocking useless items but a store has to have a good variety.


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## Mercule (Jun 28, 2008)

I bought my red box at Walgreens.  My next several purchases were from Kay-Bee Toys.  I never set foot in a hobby store until I was already a hobbyist.  With the exception of when I was in college and the game store was pretty much right on campus (which is more an argument for location), I'm not sure I've ever met someone who started gaming because they just happened to walk into a shop.

Today, my local Barnes and Noble is darn friendly toward people who want to plan an event there.  I'm pretty sure they'd love to arrange furniture for a game day.  I could probably get a club set up there, just like the board gamers or the manga fans.  And, it'd be on a main drag, with plenty of traffic, so new people might actually stop by.

So far as I can tell, the truth is that the LGS has never been relevent to the _growth_ of the hobby.  In it's day, it did wonders for _sustaining_ of the hobby -- by making a broader array of products available -- but not growing it.  Amazon, et al., have taken that service and improved it.  I can get more products, cheaper, at Amazon than at my LGS.

So, what reason do I have to support the LGS?  Give me a reason to stop in, and I will.  If I want to do charity, I'll give to the United Way.

Anyone supporting their LGS "for the community" is fooling themselves.  The hobby isn't benefiting from it one bit.

Oh, and, as odd as it may seem, I'm not anti-LGS.  I'd love to see a good store devoted to games.  I'm just opposed to the notion that some stripped-down hole-in-the-wall store is going to accomplish anything.  If you want to do business, act like a business person.


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## carmachu (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> On the other hand, your FLGS--me, people like me--are the cradle of the gaming population.  It is through us, and the locations we provide for players to come and play--valuable retail space we pay rent on and which could easily be retasked for more retail space--that provides the continuing growth of new D&D players and roleplayers in general.  I often find myself migrating Magic players and boardgame players on to D&D as a fun and exciting new game, and in order to do this, I run demo games for them and provide them a place to play.
> 
> But the sales of the books decrease every time someone decides that they prefer the discount from a website or big box store.  I've resorted to sending people out to the local BB stores to put my business cards in their copies of 4.0 books and elsewhere as advertising.
> 
> ...




Sorry no, cant support you. Or at the least the ones near me. 

Why? Becuase your not worth supporting. There's no F in front of FLAGS and the support tended to be one way. Got tired of dealing with it.

So....folks like me dont bother anymore much. We rent out our own space or play home. Its not worth the hassle dealing with you anymore.

So go ahead, change over the sapce to more reatil items. That threat doesnt hold water much anymore.


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## gamersgambit (Jun 28, 2008)

First--thanks to everyone; I appreciate the replies (even if they're not in agreement with me).  Ultimately, feedback is important.

My store, by the by, is The Gamer's Gambit; 26-13 Broadway, Fair Lawn, NJ, 07410.  Website: Gamer's Gambit Online.

All that being said, some replies.

To all of those people who (a) don't have an LGS; or (b) never had an LGS:  Obviously, this can't be about you. Frankly, I think the "L" is best defined as "within a 30 minute drive".

For those who state that there's no "F" in their FLGS:

I think that friendliness is highly important, or to put it a better way, providing customer service is very important.  Moreover, if you're going to be in the business of being an FLGS (as opposed, say, to being a comic book shop that happens to sell games), you're pretty much obligated to provide playspace.

For those of you who pointed out means by which an LGS can improve its customer service:

Personally, I've implemented many of the suggestions mentioned.  I'm well aware that there's an obligation on the part of the FLGS to work to retain customers.  The mere fact that a retailer *has a product* is no reason to buy from them if their price isn't the lowest; they must provide something that instills a sense of loyalty in the customer.

There were several creative ideas I hadn't considered (thanks, Corjay!).  I really appreciate those, and perhaps I should've titled this post: what can I, as an FLGS, do to retain/grasp your business from Amazon and Barnes and Noble?

For those of you who were distinctly more negative:

First of all, I'm not looking for charity.  Nor am I making any threats.  I'm simply making people aware of what is happening, in my eyes, to the business.  I got into this because I was an RPG player for many years.  I'm also a businessman; I was a corporate customer service manager for many years before getting into this.

Second of all, I beg to differ with those of you who are stating that the FLGS isn't relevant anymore or isn't important to the gaming community.  It is in places like mine that people who wouldn't consider RPGs become RPG players (by watching others play); it is here that CCG players discover RPGs; it is here that people who are tomorrow's game designers come to associate with others.  We are the physical gathering place for gamers.  It is at stores like this that game designers are born and inspired.

What I am pointing out here is not "support the horse and carriage, cars are the work of the devil!" It is quite simply that when you take that extra $5 discount on a product over what I am charging, you are neglecting what we as FLGSes do for the community as a whole.  It may well be you don't care about the community of gamers and the tone that it takes, which is fine.   In that case, there's nothing I can do.  However, those of you on ENWorld are probably the sorts of folks who DO care.

You wonder where the designers at Wizards get their feedback for creating their new versions and products...well, a lot of it comes from the RPGA, which is often based in or around an FLGS.  More comes from the retailers themselves--our impressions of what we see and report after Game Day events and other events, and our constant communication with Wizards.  It is to retailers like us that Wizards go when they want to know what is selling and what isn't.  When you decide to not patronize our stores, you're shooting yourselves in the foot when it comes to the future of game design.

Buying products from Amazon provides very little feedback to Wizards.  Posting to their boards provides some, but let's face it, they'd be utter fools to base many decisions on the ranting and arguing that occur on those boards.  Gaming stores--which provide a location for gamers to formulate opinions and retailers to provide feedback--are where it's at.

That, plus the steady stream of new players I draw into RPGs who come into my store, are what the community gets from supporting their FLGSes.

********************************

It is likely that none of you are going to buy anything from my store.  This post isn't about my store personally.  I'm just seeking your thoughts on things, and maybe convincing you to think about returning to your FLGS.


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## chriton227 (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> But the sales of the books decrease every time someone decides that they prefer the discount from a website or big box store.  I've resorted to sending people out to the local BB stores to put my business cards in their copies of 4.0 books and elsewhere as advertising.




I've worked in the retail industry for well over a decade.  This statement alone tells me something important about your business - your customers don't value the additional services you offer enough to balance the price difference.  If you can't compete on price, you have to find something that your customers find valuable enough to be willing to pay the additional price.  Convenience stores like 7-Eleven have just as great a price disparity when compared to grocery stores, but they still manage to stay afloat because they have found that their customers value the convenient location and quick shopping experience enough to be willing to pay the higher price.  The hard part is finding out what your customers value.  

Currently you are fighting against not only the base price difference, but also the difference in sales tax and free shipping vs. gas to get to the store.  One thing that you might consider is offering drinks and snacks. My local FLGS was offering a card that was good for 10 drinks that was a discount off buying them individually, it worked well for them as people tended to get more drinks over the same period of time using the card, and it was much less labor intensive to ring up the card once and then just punch the card for each drink than it was to ring up the 10 drinks individually.  CMG and CCG sealed deck and draft tournaments can be great for income.  A successful miniatures game like Warhammer Fantasy or Warhammer 40k can generate a lot of sales, especially if you have tables with 3d terrain available for use and/or offer painting demos.  I would be willing to pay to rent time in a semi-private gaming area (like a back room) as long as it was clean and well maintained.  I'd even be willing to pay for wireless internet access in the store.  If you can find add-on services that the customers are willing to pay for, it may allow you to offer more of a discount on the normal merchandise, which will hopefully drive sales and get more people into the store where they can spend more money on your other services, creating a nice feedback loop.  You might even find that offering a small discount increases sales volume enough to make up for the lower margins on its own.

But no matter what you come up with, it will all come down to whether the customer thinks what you are offering is worth the price you are charging, and if not, no amount of begging, pleading, or complaining here or anywhere else will save your business.  Sometimes the most important decision regarding running a business is knowing when to stop before you end up in too deep of a hole.


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## Aristotle (Jun 28, 2008)

Corjay said:


> If the current model you are using isn't working, then get a new business model.



Excellent stuff in this post. I suggested, in a less specific way, the same thing last time a store owner came in arguing their case against the big stores. You can't compete in retail. You have to compete in service.

I'm a gamer feeling the pinch. I'd much rather spend my money in a game store. I'd rather see my money go to someone who cares about the hobby, but given how deep the discounts have been recently I just can justify it.


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## Corjay (Jun 28, 2008)

Thanks for the callout, gamersgambit.

There's one more thing you said that made me think. You mentioned doing things for the community. While you were speaking of the "community of gamers", it occurred to me that one of the best ways to get people to notice your store is to do community service and charities in whatever way your store can afford. Not only does it provide tax breaks, but it makes your store and its name visible. Just another idea.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jun 28, 2008)

Hey there, Gamersgambit.
  My full support and sympathy.  I had heavy support from FLGSs in my area, to help me into the Hobby, and people like you helped me into Dungeons and Dragons.
  My cheers and salutations to you, sir!  

  And yes, I've seen the decline myself in FLGS.
  I remember the Gamer's Inn in Troy.  Now gone.  Hobby House in Garden City, now gone.  The Gaming Underground in Ann Arbor, now gone.
  Riders in Canton.  Another store in western Ann Arbor.  A store from long ago in Plymouth.  A store in Novi.  Other stores throughout Metropolitan Detroit.  Gone.

  These were great places, and especially they were places where one could find older material.  The Gaming Underground was a literal gold mine for the Gaming Collector.  As for the places in Plymouth, they enabled the first group I ever played in to come into existence in the first place.

  Cheers to them all.  I remember them.

  Edena_of_Neith


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## Nadaka (Jun 28, 2008)

What local FLGS?

There is a closet on hardy street where you get sneared at by 4 fat guys if you play anything but warhammer.

110 miles away... There was a great gaming shop, but all the punks would stop there to shoplift on their way home from school. She got evicted. The comic/card shop next door took over. And if you have a question about anything but pokemon, they stare at you slack jawed. Technically they have some gaming stuff left over, but thats because they don't have enough cards to fill the storage space.


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## Zurai (Jun 28, 2008)

I'm afraid I can't sympathize either. I *do* have a FLGS - emphasis on F - and the owner goes out of his way to put that F there. His store is actually two adjacent lots in a strip mall; one is full of merchendise and 9 or so computers that he sells access to by the hour, while the other is a complete gameroom with four minis tables, a dozen standard tables, a bathroom, and a separate "VIP" room for private games.

He sells everything from imported card games, to minis, to every roleplaying game in print (and some out of print), to board games.

He only hires knowledgable, personable staff. His guys know what they're doing, know what's in stock/on order (or at least know how to find out quickly), and are happy to take individual orders and preorders.

He runs weekly demos of random games that he sells. He runs several tournaments every week for a variety of card games, and he has other people run minis tournaments once a month a game or so. He recently recruited a whole slew of DMs to run a store Open D&D campaign where anyone could sign up to play, and gave the DMs that stuck with their games a free 4E DMG (that's how I got mine).

He sells snacks and drinks, but he doesn't prohibit outside food and drink. Hell, there's a chinese food store and a pizza/italian joint within literal spitting distance. Instead of trying to compete with them, he takes advantage of the salty food and makes a killing on sodas and icecream bar type dessert snacks.

In other words, he runs a prototypical Friendly LGS, and he does well by it.


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## Jack Colby (Jun 28, 2008)

Don't look at me.  The only RPG stuff I buy online is old out of print stuff.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 28, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> ...I like OD&D, Classic Traveller, a few other odds and ends (maybe some T&T, some CoC, some Encounter Critical)...




You don't like *Encounter Critical* and you know it


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## KingCrab (Jun 28, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> When I got into gaming, D&D was sold at Toys 'R Us.  That's a place where kids (at the time, anyway... I don't know what they're like anymore) used to browse for cool stuff.  Or I did anyway.  And I got into gaming through my friends of similar age.




I got my first basic set at a Toys 'R Us too, back when my mom still thought D&D was secretly the work of the devil.

Later on as a teen, I also had my experience with an unfriendly local game store, one that has since closed.  I also saw some good stores close, and this was all back before 3e.  Times were tough back then as well.


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## Korgoth (Jun 28, 2008)

Teflon Billy said:


> You don't like *Encounter Critical* and you know it




Robodroid Criminals have been already been hired to liquidate you. I'm sorry but there's no talking your way out of it... unless you're some kind of Vulkin Psi Witch ("I'm not who you droids are looking for") they're going to carry out their contract. Though one of them has a weakness for Planetary Ape Doxies, so you might be able to use that to your advantage. Otherwise, prepare to be terminated.


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## KingCrab (Jun 28, 2008)

Storminator said:


> I suggest that you put a link to your store in your sig. And put your location in your profile.
> 
> At let us look you up while you're posting!




That sounds like a great idea for the OP.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 28, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Robodroid Criminals have been already been hired to liquidate you. I'm sorry but there's no talking your way out of it... unless you're some kind of Vulkin Psi Witch ("I'm not who you droids are looking for") they're going to carry out their contract. Though one of them has a weakness for Planetary Ape Doxies, so you might be able to use that to your advantage. Otherwise, prepare to be terminated.




Ha! Fool, my allies amongst the Ape Sultans have already prepared for your Robodroid attack.

My henchman Thrazar even now leads them to the attack.


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## jinnetics (Jun 28, 2008)

The "cradle" or D&D for me was the Kay-Bee toystore that my Red Box came from, and the kitchen table at my cousins' house where I learned to play. I don't get that feeling when I walk into my "F"LGSes. I get blank stares and snobbish answers to basic questions.


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## pogminky (Jun 28, 2008)

FLGS are dying.  I have a pessimistic view that all forms of TT gaming are also going to die.... 4e may well be the last big RPG.

Maybe I'm just being all 'down' and stuff..... but I can't see any hobby competing with what the MMO market will be like in a decade.


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## Dan Bell (Jun 28, 2008)

Storminator said:


> I suggest that you put a link to your store in your sig. And put your location in your profile.
> 
> At let us look you up while you're posting!



Google is your friend: http://www.gamersgambitonline.com/


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## pogre (Jun 28, 2008)

Several have already hit on the main key: you must be a destination. Gaming stores should have card and miniature leagues going every night. That's the real repeat business in gaming.

You just cannot compete in RPGs these days. I would say your instincts are correct - cut back on RPGs to the bare minimum. 

The economy is going to continue to be rough on retailers for at least the next few months. Like I'm telling you something new...

good luck!


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## Kzach (Jun 28, 2008)

You're probably not going to like what I have to say but I feel the need to say it anyway.

As a failed small-business owner myself, I still find myself unable to find sympathy for you. Small business owners often confuse their business as something personal rather than an investment. It's not. It's a business. The size of your business is irrelevant. You went into business and markets are affected by competition. Complaining about competition does nothing to fix the problem. Either adapt or die.

In the case of my store, I failed to adapt to the changing market (movie rentals) and so I lost everything. I don't blame Blockbuster for this and nor do I blame pirating. I blame myself for not being able to adapt and grow the business.



gamersgambit said:


> So I put it to you:  Support your LGS.  It's the birthplace of the next generation of gamers, unless you really WANT 5.0 and 6.0 to become *completely* focused on duplicating MMORPGS because the only market left becomes people who play online.



No.

You change for your customer, not them for you.

They are your customers. Expecting them to change for you is not only utterly ridiculous, but it's also just bad business sense. If you truly believe that your customer should support you, then your business is doomed. The customer owes you nothing. They pay for your living. Cater to them, change to meet their demands, don't expect them to keep supporting you out of sympathy.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Jun 28, 2008)

The hard, cold, truth is that many gamers simply don't get much value of a brick-and-mortar game store.  Books are cheaper online.  In addition to the lower "base price," you generally don't pay sales tax, online, and often don't have to pay shipping.  You have a broader choice on what to buy.  You can get recommendations and find similar products.  You can read reviews.  You can talk to a HUGE variety of other gamers online.  You can find local gamers through forums, online meetups, et cetera.  Heck, if you go in for such things, you can even game online.  You can find out-of-print or used material easier online, too.

One reason to buy at a FLGS is if you need the product in your hands right now, with no shipping delay.  Another is the desire to browse through the physical product before buying (although some game stores discourage that).  Those simply aren't enough.

As a side comment, I don't agree that game stores are the cradle of gaming.  I think new gamers tend to come from existing gamers introducing new people to the hobby, and you don't need a game store for that.  I think if game store disappeared tomorrow, gaming would continue just fine.

I think that, if game stores are going to survive, they need to reinvent themselves in a manner similar to the way retail bookstores like Borders did.  A modern Borders is a nice play to go: there are comfortable chairs, a coffee bar, you can read the books and magazines, you can listen to the music, and it's a nice environment.  The game store needs to do something similar; it needs to be a place that gamers want to go and hang out.  Provide a clean and pleasant place for gamers to play, for example.  Sell drinks and snacks.  Have supplies like paper, pencils, graph paper, battlemats, markers, et cetera on hand and for sale.  Maybe sell computer time for online gaming.  Organize games and tournaments.  Et cetera.  Get people coming to the store _to come to the store_.  Once they're in there, they're more likely to buy.

I don't think gaming stores can compete, as purely "a place to buy your game stuff."  The deck is stacked against them, there.  It's just economics.


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## gamersgambit (Jun 28, 2008)

Chiriton sez...



> I would be willing to pay to rent time in a semi-private gaming area (like a back room) as long as it was clean and well maintained. I'd even be willing to pay for wireless internet access in the store. If you can find add-on services that the customers are willing to pay for, it may allow you to offer more of a discount on the normal merchandise, which will hopefully drive sales and get more people into the store where they can spend more money on your other services, creating a nice feedback loop. You might even find that offering a small discount increases sales volume enough to make up for the lower margins on its own.




Absolutely.  We offer wireless internet now for a yearly fee (which has made us money, & which I expect to be able to lower the price & do more volume when DDI is good to go).  

I should clarify: my business offers many good services; I focus on them.  My customers who play in the store are loyal ones, who appreciate the space I devote to it.  I don't believe I am losing customers in any significant numbers to other stores due to my lack of customer service or services provided (I work hard to ensure that and part of that hard work is posting here, getting the suggestions from you folks that I haven't already heard about!)


Also, my business is in no danger of failing.  D&D etc. is only a portion of my revenues.  My problem is, I *want* to keep supporting D&D, but the loss of business (explained perhaps better in the following paragraphs) makes the business side of me more tempted to rededicate the D&D space to other things that make more money...

While I have loyal customers as mentioned above, RPG sales amongst those players who *don't* play in the store (and thus have little need for my services) are declining.  Perhaps 8 different groups of 6 players or more each play in the store; but a significantly larger number of gamers who are in different home-based groups used to come to my store to pick up their books, to support the store & the community.  Now those same people come to me to pick up dice, mats, minis, and other things they can't easily obtain online...but they buy their books online.  And the loss of their book business isn't made up by the business they do in accessories.

As much as I appreciate the comments about how to improve my customer service--and believe me, I do, and would like to see them keep coming!--the problem that's causing the death of the FLGS isn't the people who would be affected by an improvement in customer service; it's the people who benefitted from the customer service when they started out gaming, then for some reason (usually age/marriage/kids) moved to home gaming and stopped buying their goods at an FLGS in favor of an online or big-box discount solution.

In short, the veteran gamers....like myself. 

The story of my gaming store acquisition is perhaps the biggest illustration of what I'm getting at.  I grew up going to the store I would eventually purchase.  At this store, I met with my long-time GM of 20 years and another player in his game who will feature later in the tale.  Fast forward through a life of working in corporations and making good money doing so to 2007.   My friend above mentioned had worked as a manager in his (new) FLGS and then went on to buy it and turn it into a large success--but one which had to minimize its RPG space due to flagging sales.

My former FLGS, having gone through two owners, was going out of business in '07.   I played there occasionally, often going to my friends' basement to play but also playing at the store from time to time.  I knew there was a large community of gamers that would basically dissipate if the store didn't change hands...so I bought it along with my friend above, who was looking to expand.

We fixed the place up a great deal--removed the gamer funk, modernized the place so it looked like a real retail space instead of a 1970s throwback, put in flooring, improved customer service, added lots of add-on services and basically renovated both the place and its image.

That's where I am today.  I don't expect everyone to do anything even close to what I did--give up a career doing something a lot more lucrative to do something that I am passionate about loving--but I don't think it's so much to ask to support local FLGSes.  Because as a retailer, all of my experiences are with the hundreds of folks in my local area who either remember the store from when they were kids or the people who still go there to play. 

If I gave the impression that I was relying on the handouts of people to keep my business alive, I apologize.  The business itself is quite successful for a year-old operation; we continue to innovate and expand, and part of that is an increased online presence such as posting here. 

No, what I want--as a gamer and a game store owner--is people to support their FLGSes *not * to keep them afloat because without your business they would go under, but because _the FLGS is important to the entire gaming community_. Without support they're not necessarily going to go out of business, but rather go out of the business of //selling RPGs//, which turns them into UNfriendly local gaming stores. 

(As a side note, I couldn't agree more with posters who say that it is the onus of the FLGS to serve the customer.  That's just good business sense.  The problem is that they need customers (of RPGs) to serve, or they'll stop supporting RPGs.)

I am, perhaps, naive in appealing to the community.  I can only state that there are many out there from those I have spoken with who benefitted greatly from FLGSes, and many people are of similar opinions.

Perhaps I am also unique in being a gaming store that keeps a large variety of out-of-print and non-D&D/White Wolf RPG materials in store, as well.  I should hope not, but that may be the case.


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## Tetsubo (Jun 28, 2008)

I don't have a FLGS. I don't even have a LGS. I make special trips three or four times a year to GS in my era though. Mostly to seek out discount and used gaming books. Buying online is just so much cheaper and convenient. 

The truly sad part is that I live in the largest city in my state.


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## CoatRackOfDoom (Jun 28, 2008)

Gamersgambit: I'm a 39 year old roleplayer who's childhood gaming store was a shop that specialized in model kits.  Roleplaying games and miniatures were given about 15% of the floorspace, but there were no tables and no one on the staff appeared to know anything about the games.  I suspect the store owner was just savvy about what the neighborhood kids would buy.  Anyway, it was good enough for me to find what I needed, but the community aspect was completely missing.

I've never played in a store.  So, these days when I go into a LGS and spot an empty table, I don't think about how my group might just find a home there.  Perhaps I figure that table is for Magic players or Warhammer players.  In other words, I'm not going to ask you "GG, is that table available on Thursday nights for my group?"  (maybe I'll do that now that I've brought it up...)

Perhaps your customers who just buy dice and the occasional $5 third-party supplement might be more willing to buy the high-end stuff if they developed that same attachment YOU had to your FLGS.  And perhaps they don't feel INVITED to make themselves at home around a table in your store...

So, if you're not doing it already, maybe try extending these casual customers a personal invitation to 'join the family' when you see them.

I think it's something that I would appreciate, anyway.

Cheers,
Ed


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## Philotomy Jurament (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> We fixed the place up a great deal--removed the gamer funk, modernized the place so it looked like a real retail space instead of a 1970s throwback, put in flooring, improved customer service, added lots of add-on services and basically renovated both the place and its image.



You need some pictures up on your web-site (especially of any gaming space, snack bar, et cetera).


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## Treebore (Jun 28, 2008)

I can understand where the OP, but I don't give my LGS very much business because:

1. He does not carry the products I like to buy. I like to buy C&C, Necromancer, Goodman, and Paizo. He carries all of them, but only products I bought long ago, he doesn't get new stuff in, even when I told him I wanted them.

2. I am on fixed income and have a wife and 3 kids. I am going to save money where I can. IF that means a LGS goes out of business, so be it.

3. The internet, and online gaming, are becoming the new gathering place for gamers. One that has been far more effective for me than my LGS.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> ...On the other hand, your FLGS--me, people like me--are the cradle of the gaming population.  It is through us, and the locations we provide for players to come and play--valuable retail space we pay rent on and which could easily be retasked for more retail space--that provides the continuing growth of new D&D players and roleplayers in general...




I feel for your plight Scott, butt he above comment is incredibly flawed.

The FLGS--even the insanely good ones I have here in Vancouver--are not the "cradle of the gaming population". They just aren't, and I'm not sure they ever have been.

I learned to play from a couple of friends who learned to play from their older brothers.

A few of the younger guys I know learned from school gaming clubs (apparently chess clubs have a lot of D&D crossover)

And the true noobs I know learned from internet forums like this one.

Literally no one I know "learned to play" at a Game Store.

I know tons of folks who have come to Heroclix, Magic: The Gathering, and Warhammer Minis from the FLGS.


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## Quartz (Jun 28, 2008)

I'd just like to emphasise the cost of going to he FLGS. When I was living in Ascot, 20 years ago, I used to think nothing of driving down to Aldershot to visit Esdevium Games. When I was in Aylesbury 10 years ago. I thought little of driving down to The Gamekeeper in High Wycombe. Each was about a gallon of fuel each way. That's £10 / $20 today. Plus parking. That's simply not affordable these days. 

I don't have any answers.


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## Corjay (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit:

I realize now that you just don't want to let go of RPG stuff, so I have a couple ideas for that particular aspect in addition to what I already mentioned.


Rent out table space for RPG's. Since RPG's are a loss for you at the moment, first, I would suggest that you rent out tables for the RPG crowd instead of just letting them use them freely, because RPG's require more space and the more space you give for it, the less you have available for more money-making ventures. Logic, I'm sure they'll understand, and which is similar to pool halls.
Don't display the RPG's on the shelves. Books on the shelves should be squeezed tight to make room for more lucrative products. But that's not the end of RPG display...
Put the latest RPG product samples in a vertical display bin that takes up no room next to the cash wrap or display them prominently up high on wire racks behind the cash wrap that takes up no space.
Keep only 1 sample of each product on the floor and keep the rest in boxes or on display as pointed out above.
Provide secondary products with the purchase of an RPG book. For instance, a repackaged miniature. Since you're not selling the figure, but giving it away, the prohibition on singular resale doesn't apply. You can put an attractive and very visible sign up advertising this gift.
Become an online outlet (more than just a web presence, but becoming one of the retailers that sells at a discount). This will give you the opportunity to sell the product in store at lower prices as well.
Focus your sales attention. Do you see a mother coming in with her 10 year-old son browsing for any old game? Perfect opportunity to graduate him to roleplaying. Particularly give attention to mentioning that there are regular games in the store that last hours (thus taking the kid off the mother's hands for hours a week), and giving the child an opportunity at making new friends.
Is there someone conversing about how he hasn't played RPG's in ages? Encourage him to get back into it and offer him a deal that makes it hard for him to refuse on a product of his choice. You might be taking it at a loss at that time, but if he buys it, you've just snagged a long time customer.
For crying out loud, compliment the ladies. No, don't flirt, just let them know they've been noticed. "Hey, great purse, where'd you get that? My wife likes that style." You can then talk to them about things like playing roleplaying games with their husbands/boyfriends/guy friends/children to get more face time with them.
Offer family discounts on RPG products.
Consider "Family Saturdays", giving free table space to families playing RPG's. (of course, you would have to crack down hard on anyone that cusses or swears, making sure no-tolerance signs are clearly posted.)
Keep a computer in the store locked on to your website (disable external links and childproof it to your website). Customers could use the computer to order the discount products from your website in-store. (Of course, some customers will want you to do it for them, but that's fine too.)
 I hope this helps.


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## Charwoman Gene (Jun 28, 2008)

Anyone know a FLGS, y'know the Games-only, table-space kind that predates MtG and the upsurge in Warhammer?

I know lots of gaming-friendly comics and hobby shops... and johnny-com-lately FLGS's


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## philreed (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> My problem is, I *want* to keep supporting D&D, but the loss of business (explained perhaps better in the following paragraphs) makes the business side of me more tempted to rededicate the D&D space to other things that make more money...




That's a bad reason to do anything when it comes to a business. Personally, I want to spend my days writing new RPG material. I don't, because it was better for my business (and my family) if I slowed things down and took a day job. I still write and sometimes publish new material, but I can admit when a business has transitioned into a hobby.

If D&D doesn't make the cut in your store, don't use profits from your other lines to keep D&D in stock. Make each and every line you carry support itself.

If more RPG businesses were run like businesses, the entire industry would be in better shape.


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## CountPopeula (Jun 28, 2008)

pogminky said:


> FLGS are dying.  I have a pessimistic view that all forms of TT gaming are also going to die.... 4e may well be the last big RPG.
> 
> Maybe I'm just being all 'down' and stuff..... but I can't see any hobby competing with what the MMO market will be like in a decade.




Depends on how you define tabletop gaming. Does it include CCGs? Because Magic still does pretty good business. Miniature games? Warmachine, 40K, Anima Tactics, DDM, and Heroclix all seem to be doing well. Not HUGE, but well enough. Heck, even Anima: Tactics seems to be doing very well. 

There's also a huge board game market well beyond Monopoly, Trivial Pursuit, and Cluedo. And non-collectable card games, and even classics with poker decks. On nights we planned on getting too drunk to play D&D, my group used to play bridge.

As the original topic of the FLGS... I have hundreds, maybe thousands of dollars of lead miniatures. Almost $500 just on Anima. I have four editions of D&D. I've been playing D&D since I was a sophomore in high school, so around 11 years. I've been in a game store exactly once, and I overpaid for a Sisters of Battle boxed set. You know how hard it is to overpay for Games Workshop stuff? I've done just fine without a local game shop, and I don't see any advantage to going there now.


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## carmachu (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> I should clarify: my business offers many good services; I focus on them. My customers who play in the store are loyal ones, who appreciate the space I devote to it. I




great, good for you. You seem like your on the ball. so dont take this personally:

most of us will NOT support a FLAG. Either because we have really bad local ones or very bad experiences with them. Thats the cold hard reality.









> No, what I want--as a gamer and a game store owner--is people to support their FLGSes *not *to keep them afloat because without your business they would go under, but because _the FLGS is important to the entire gaming community_. Without support they're not necessarily going to go out of business, but rather go out of the business of //selling RPGs//, which turns them into UNfriendly local gaming stores.





Hate to be the bearer of bad news: but you arent that important to the community as you use to be. Why would I drive 30-45 minutes to the local flags to might find a half empty shelf of models or books when I can browse in my slippers and see every thing online?

Why do I want to come down to a store to try and find a group, only to find no one there, or you(a FLAG) have taken down the board that has gamers wanted?

Why would I come to a FLAG that has "gaming night" that runs from 6-9pm on a weekday night?

Most of us will NOT support a FLAGS because they arent worth supporting. This isnt personal or about you and your store. But support is a two way street that some of us HAVE NOT gotten.

When a store decided it didnt want our wargaming club anymore, when we bought in store, when we demo'd games, and was willing to lose almost 10% of its gross sales, enough is enough. 

Some of us will NEVER support a FLAG again. 




> Perhaps I am also unique in being a gaming store that keeps a large variety of out-of-print and non-D&D/White Wolf RPG materials in store, as well. I should hope not, but that may be the case.





That might be a problem. you might have to condense it and use the space for something better. That just might be the reality.


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## philreed (Jun 28, 2008)

carmachu said:


> That might be a problem. you might have to condense it and use the space for something better. That just might be the reality.




Exactly. RPGs eat a lot of shelf space. Retailers need to understand that space = money, and they need to use their space wisely.

Thousands of dollars worth of CCG product can easily fit in a space that holds a few hundred dollars worth of RPG product.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 28, 2008)

The FLGS I used to frequent most often went out of business a few years back.  The main reason was that the owners and staff were gamers, not business people.  They couldn't keep the store up and be profitable.  They had gaming space, they ran events all the time, but they bought stuff indiscriminately and had too much inventory that would not sell.  They were nice people who loved gaming, but if I dropped in to pick up something on the way to my personal game, I sometimes had to wait five or ten minutes to get rung up because the person who was supposed to be working the register was busy chatting about some game, or trying to participate in one of the events they were running while working the store.  The events they sponsored were often populated by the more stereotypical gamer type and they got loud and rude to the point where I would not enter the store if I had my kids with me because I was worried about the language they would probably hear being shouted.  The owners ran a bad ship and in the end it killed them.

Oddly enough, another store nearby has been in business for quite a while now and seems to be doing well.  They provide no space at all for games.  I think they sponsor some Warhammer events, but they don't do it in the store.  They carry the best selection of board games around along with jigsaw puzzles, some kids toys and collector chess sets.  The store is fairly small and packed with goods to sell, but in a well-laid out manner so I can find what I need quickly if I want, or browse for a while I have the time.  Because they don't run events, it is a place to shop, not a place to play.  I have no problem bringing my kids with me into the store because I know it is unlikely they will see or hear inappropriate behavior.  This benefits the store owners directly since I often will purchase some small item for my kids along with what I'm getting for myself.

In the end I don't think of them as a LGS, because they don't run the place like most LGSs I've encountered in the recent years.  Instead they remind me of the hobby stores from days of yore, and I appreciate that.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jun 28, 2008)

You HAVE my support and sympathy, as I have said, and wish to repeat.

  Edena_of_Neith


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## Graybeard (Jun 28, 2008)

I have two mlocal gaming stores that I rarely go to. The main reasons are poor service and poor selection. I buy most of my books online or at the local Borders because they are much cheaper. I frequently get coupons for 25% or more for Borders. What I tried to get at my local shops when I went there were dice, battlemats, and used books. Each store had a few used books but nothing of interest. As for dice, all they had in stock were d6's. Neither of the stores carried battlemats or any magazines of interest to gamers. Both had a small selection of comics and a couple of game tables devoted to Warhammer. One store is about 4 miles from my house and the other is about 10 miles away. There used to be a great store near where I worked but they closed due to death of the owner. He carried plastic models, magazines, comics, all types of games including card, board, and rpgs. He carried non fantasy card games ioncluding things like UNO. He had demo days often and invited customers to either run a demo or join a game. He was friendly and personable and easy to talk to about nearly any subject. It didn't matter if you were a regular customer or not. As soon as you walked in, if he wasn't busy with another customer, he would acknowledge you, ask questions, and talk to you about any and every subject. I remember the first time I went in, I was looking for HarnMaster product which is extremely difficult to get in stores. He had a great selection and offered to order anything I wanted. He even had contacts with other game stores around the country and would buy items from them for a customer. If you were a regular customer he would give you a discount or throw in some small items for free. On a demo day I attended for a Big Eyes, Small Mouth game, he payed for pizza for everyone there. I really miss that store.


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## Mercule (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> If I gave the impression that I was relying on the handouts of people to keep my business alive, I apologize.  The business itself is quite successful for a year-old operation; we continue to innovate and expand, and part of that is an increased online presence such as posting here.



Dunno if you gave that impression, but you didn't not give that impression, if you follow me.  I was going, largely, with the law of averages on this.

In reading your later posts, though, it seems like you are running a store that might get me to stop in.  I think the wireless Internet is a great idea, especially with DDI, as you said.

I don't really have any specific ideas, though.  I've got four kids, a 40+ hr job, and a lot of church activities I'm involved in.  Even if I had the ideal LGS, I wouldn't have time to hang out there, anymore.  

About the best I'd do -- and I used to do this when we had a better LGS in town -- is stop in on my way home from work or while running errands and browse, chat, or get news.  That environment made me want to spend my money there.  In all honesty, a 30% discount through Amazon is still darn hard to overcome.  But, a 10, or even 15% difference would be fine if the store was warm and inviting, professional, clean, and convenient.

The stores I've enjoyed and tried to spend money at have all been carpeted, had well organized shelves, and had posters on the walls that weren't all cleavage or came out of the back of a book.  The people behind the counter all looked sanitary and socially well adjusted.  Many of them had TVs that were playing quietly other than for special events.  And, their game tables were always in good condition and out of the way.

The current LGS, that I avoid, has a yellowed tile floor, spartan shelving, posters with crease marks and industrial white walls.  The people behind the counter are either the greasy, forty-something, overweight guy in t-shirt and shorts or the twenty-something scrawny guy with long, greasy hair, a mangy goatee, and wearing some death metal t-shirt.  Neither one will acknowledge you without being hailed, even if you're standing at the register with a handful of books.  The main store area is filled with basic tables and the product shelving is only on the walls, which gives the impression of having to walk through somebody's gaming area (I've never seen more than one game going on there, but still) to actually browse.

Did I actually bring up the appearance of the staff?  Yes, I did.  Appearance is a huge part of how people related to you, at least in a business sense.  If you look (and maybe smell) like the homeless dude begging for pocket change, don't be surprised if people treat you like that homeless dude.  I don't think anyone is surprised by the notion that people like to buy from a clean, well maintained store.  So why would anyone be surprised that people also like to buy from clean, well-groomed clerks?  (It probably bears being explicit, here, that I have no idea what you look like and it would surprise me if this applied to you, based on your comments thus far, but I mention it because it does seem to be a theme for some stores.)



CoatRackOfDoom said:


> Gamersgambit: I'm a 39 year old roleplayer who's childhood gaming store was a shop that specialized in model kits.  Roleplaying games and miniatures were given about 15% of the floorspace, but there were no tables and no one on the staff appeared to know anything about the games.




Ditto.  Actually, by the time I was a senior in high school, I'd been shopping there long enough that the owner started asking me for suggestions on what was good.  He was a coin collector, his wife did some sort of stitchery, and everything else was to keep those afloat.

That might actually be a great perspective.  It's okay to have your own preferrence and reason for being there.  But that doesn't mean it has to be your largest source of revenue.  Just don't go all Comic Store Guy on the people supporting you.


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## gamersgambit (Jun 28, 2008)

Everyone, your replies and feedback continue to be appreciated. Keep 'em coming!  Even if you can't support me as a personal retailer (or don't want to), your explanations of why *not* can help out people like me who want to know why not. One of the biggest problems any retailer has is actually understanding the loss of customers that occurs--a customer who comes in, doesn't speak to anyone (or has a brief chat), then leaves, never to come back...well, that person may well have a reason not to come back that has to do with the store--but the owner/employees will never find out what that is.


Corjay sez:




> Rent out table space for RPG's. Since RPG's are a loss for you at the moment, first, I would suggest that you rent out tables for the RPG crowd instead of just letting them use them freely, because RPG's require more space and the more space you give for it, the less you have available for more money-making ventures. Logic, I'm sure they'll understand, and which is similar to pool halls.



 

This is a pretty interesting topic. I decided to do this not too long ago. My (pretty large) group of in-game customers about had an apoplectic fit, because they'd been coming to the store for nigh-on ten+ years without having to pay for the privelege of playing there.

When I explained to them that the store was staying afloat on the backs of the Magic players (who paid money, at tournaments, for the privelege of playing at the store, buying their own prizes for the group in the process), that helped a bit. But (and this is a big but) they didn't want to pay a flat fee that didn't get them anything.

After much back-and-forth we came up with a solution (and I post it here in case any other FLGS owners are reading, or for you to share it with your FLGS owners):

1) Customers can spend $260 (in a year) on product in the store. If they do, they don't have to pay any table fees for the rest of the year.
2) Customers who spend $30+ in the course of a month, don't have to pay any table fees for the next 30 days.
3) If they don't fall into 1) or 2), they pay $5 a week to play there (some play in multiple games at the store). That money doesn't disappear, however--it's put into a store credit for them in the store, which they can then use to buy product (or apply as a "discount" to a product) in the store. In other words, it works a bit like a bar tab only in reverse--you pay, it goes into your "tab", and you can buy things with it.

This worked well when we had the "3.5 draught" and RPGers didn't have anything to buy there, and it's proven to be a relatively popular program. It works quite well for gamers without a lot of disposable income, as well--they can "save up" towards a game book that they might want but don't have the cash on hand to buy.

I'm wondering if anyone else has any creative suggestions along these lines?


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## carmachu (Jun 28, 2008)

Mercule said:


> Ditto. Actually, by the time I was a senior in high school, I'd been shopping there long enough that the owner started asking me for suggestions on what was good. He was a coin collector, his wife did some sort of stitchery, and everything else was to keep those afloat.
> 
> That might actually be a great perspective. It's okay to have your own preferrence and reason for being there. But that doesn't mean it has to be your largest source of revenue. Just don't go all Comic Store Guy on the people supporting you.





Same here. The one place I drove out of my way for was an old hobby shop that was a hole in the wall, who could get anything if he didnt have it quickly. Nice old guy ran the place and very personable.


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## carmachu (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> This is a pretty interesting topic. I decided to do this not too long ago. My (pretty large) group of in-game customers about had an apoplectic fit, because they'd been coming to the store for nigh-on ten+ years without having to pay for the privelege of playing there.
> 
> When I explained to them that the store was staying afloat on the backs of the Magic players (who paid money, at tournaments, for the privelege of playing at the store, buying their own prizes for the group in the process), that helped a bit. But (and this is a big but) they didn't want to pay a flat fee that didn't get them anything.
> 
> ...






Thats not a bad thing, depending on availablility. A fee isnt bad, so long as accessability is there. Like my local game store, their open game night for minis is wensday 6pm-9pm. No way I'd pay any fee for that limited amount of time.


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## Korgoth (Jun 28, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> Perhaps I am also unique in being a gaming store that keeps a large variety of out-of-print and non-D&D/White Wolf RPG materials in store, as well.  I should hope not, but that may be the case.





I'm glad to hear it. The only LGS in my area that I have much interest in browsing (for role playing games; I have an excellent historicals wargaming store to which my general complaints do not apply) has a nice little used section where out of print stuff is displayed and priced reasonably. That's a store I would go out of my way to visit, just to buy moderately used old school stuff for cheap.

I think a good game shop should have a dress/odor code. I'm not a fashion plate or anything... I'm a pudgy thirtysomething with long hair and a beard (Viking heritage, man). But I shower at least once a day and I always wear a shirt that completely covers my powerful _hara_. As delightful as it may be to have a plump _hara_, I keep mine to myself and expect others to do the same. Cute girls may have exposed midriffs if they like, but fat guys need to wear a proper shirt. When I see a big dude with his belly hanging down past his undersized geekshirt I want to claw out my eyes. And with all the cheaply-available water and chemical hygiene goops available in our culture, nobody has any justification for public stinkery unless they just came in off a construction site.  Thus, there should be a dress/odor code.

While I'm offering these helpful suggestions (which you probably already implement, because it does sound like you have a good shop), decor is important. White, dirty walls with ancient, faded posters and haphazardly-displayed dusty product make for a depressing environment. A store should look nice, smell good and have a pleasant atmosphere.


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## jdrakeh (Jun 28, 2008)

I'm lucky to have two excellent, locally owned, hobby stores available here in Colorado Springs. I shop (and buy) at both of them. The reason I use the word "lucky" is because I've lived in _lots_ of places and I've found that clean, friendly, game stores with expertly managed stock and reasonable prices are the exception, not the rule. 

Most gaming stores that I've been to commit the same sins of retail -- stocking items based on personal taste, only carrying a small selection  of products, hiring unknowledgable or unfriendly staff, etc. I've seen poor management decisions kill far more game stores than any new edition of D&D or competition from 'big box' stores.


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## ironvyper (Jun 28, 2008)

I think that renting gaming tables and internet access is probably the key to being successful. However as someone who has been gaming for years and never gamed at a store maybe listing the reasons why i never wanted to play at any store before could give you a better idea what keeps people from doing so and help you to work on those things...

1. Privacy. I like to run semi-mature games and horror themed games. Theres nothing worse for your sense of suspense or immersion then someone wandering over and asking you what game your playing and if they can sit in or watch. I've had players bring SO's to in-home games do this and its terrible for the enviroment, i cant imagine how hard it must be in a public or semi-public venue. 

2. Grownup time. Gaming for me is grown up time to relax and forget about work and the kids for a few hours. Just to sort of re-live being a free teenager with some friends and having fun. 
We all usually have a 6 pack when we game or more and no one does much to  watch their language or character behavior. That sense of being able to totally relax and just have fun seems like it would be seriously inhibited by playing in a business. 

3. Food. When we game everyone usually chips in for pizza or some other take out and brings snacks. Ordering a pizza to a store thats in the middle of business hours seems.... inappropriate. 

         On to more positive things though. As someone whose spent years working in sales and marketing i can offer some advice. 
   Optimize your website for search engines. Its not hard to find companies to optimize you for 50$ to 100$ rather then the 2 or 3 thousand others charge. I say this because i tried just for curiosity googling your site. My results are

     "game stores in fairlawn nj."   Your meetup group came up #5, the stores site isnt on the first page at all. 

     "gaming stores in fairlawn nj." Again your meetup.com group comes up at the top but no listing for the site itself. 

     "dungeons and dragons stores in fairlawn nj"  Meetup.com group. but not the site itself. Also #4 on the search results is a 4e demo from windows. 

      With different combinations this is repeated over and over. Its good to have a meetup.com group and its good to have it listed. But lots of people who might buy books from you aren't looking for a meetup, they have a group already or just don't want to join another site online so wont even click on it. 

      Having a website is nice, but if your not optimized to where your site actually comes up if people run a search for what you offer its really not going to do you any good. Its the same as having a store off a dark alley in the ghetto wont get you walk ins or paying for commercials on the golf channel at 2am wont get you business. Your website in this age of business is both your commercial and your business location. It has to be treated as such and set up to where people will find you. 

    Looking over your website i noticed a few things too. Your online store needs to be set up and opened ASAP. You can incorporate your knowledgeable customer service by posting your own reviews of everything on your site. Try to get your employees and currently loyal customers to do the same. Then you can create a more interactive ordering enviroment and by being a local store your more likely to have people who glance at it want to come in and chat about games because they saw how active your site is. Once they're in your store they're at the mercy of your salespeople. Along those lines try to get some of the people who game at your store to put up story hours in your forums and post any openings they have for players. Make yourself a community spot online and its more likely to follow in person. 

     Also theres some dead links on your home page. Anything thats "coming soon" should be "coming down" because it makes it look like your under construction, not a finished store and website. Its better to have less listed but have what is up be fully fleshed out and supported then having a bunch of good ideas that arent done. It makes people glance at your site and think to themselves "oh its still under construction. I'll check back in a few weeks" and then it slips their mind and they never do. Its like having an empty store shelf, you always keep your shelves faced so that customers think your a well organized and stocked store that does lots of business. Same thing with your website, dead links are the same as blank shelves. Makes it look unfinished and disorganized. And post pictures, just look how many peoples responses here involved stores being dingy,dark and disorganized. It sounds like yours isn't so show that off. 

     BTW if any of that sounded snarky or sarcastic i didnt mean it to. I do most of my business presentations face to face, not being able to insert jokes, body language and tone of voice detracts from the freindly presentation of ideas. but it was all in good intention.


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## Felix (Jun 29, 2008)

gamersgambit said:
			
		

> Barnes and Noble, Amazon, Borders, and the other deep-discount big box stores are killing my desire to support D&D slowly.
> 
> Think of them as Wal-Mart, only worse. Buying your stuff at WalMart certainly saves you money, and may put local retailers out of business but they provide very little other than product (and tax base for your community, but few people apparently care about that).




You want me to pay you a premium for goods I can get more cheaply and more conveniently? If you want that, you have to give me a reason. This thread has already provided suggestions.



> On the other hand, your FLGS--me, people like me--are the cradle of the gaming population.



This is absolute arrogance. Neither you nor people like you cradled me in my gaming infancy. No gaming store fostered me as I went through high school. No gaming store I've ever been in has tried to interest me in local games or ask my preferences and suggest other things I may like as well. 

And you write this post that attempts to guilt me into shopping at your store, as if I have some obligation to you not to save money and time by ordering at a discount retailer? Maybe you didn't mean to, but that first post of yours reads like you think I should feel bad about not having bought a book from you. And when I read something like that, I'm a whole lot less likely to buy from you.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 29, 2008)

Before I post further, I wish to state that I prefer to buy my gaming stuff from LGS...but I have a few good ones from which to choose.



> You want me to pay you a premium for goods I can get more cheaply and more conveniently?  If you want that, you have to give me a reason.




As a gamer with an MBA, I know enough about the retail end of the biz to know that certain big retailers are allowed to buy gaming products for much less than LGS's can.  That "premium" you're paying is typically the difference between the bulk discounts, economies of scale, and even cross subsidies inherent in the big retailers' business model that simply cannot be matched by the LGS.

Simply put, the typical LGS probably cannot compete on the basis of cost.

That leaves service.  Simply put, Online or BB retailers can't touch you there.

*Provide gaming space if you can.*  I know it sounds counterintuitive, but that may even entail going into a _larger _retail space to accommodate demos and product coexisting.  Like a factory store, a LGS that demos good games can see an immediate and lasting impact on the bottom line...at least for the products demoed.  Like other areas of retail, there is probably also a measurable increase in overall sales the longer customers stay in the store.  Demos add to that time.

*Know your customers.*  Besides gaming, one of my other loves is music- I own thousands of CDs, for instance.  My local music retailers know me and my tastes in a way the online retailers simply don't.  I've walked into some of those stores and been told by a manager (or other knowledgable staffmember) that a certain limited edition supergroup side-project CD had been released, and they were holding one of the store's 2 copies for me...and I didn't even know that the project _existed._

*Provide an inviting environment.*  Gone are the days when you can run a LGS out of a dingy, dark, dungeonesque storefront.  The hobby has grown, and expectations have followed.  Make sure your store is well lit and the climate is comfortable.  If you can, provide refreshments and access to bathrooms.

Also, examine your store's layout  Like I mentioned above, the longer someone stays in your store, the more money they're likely to spend.  Following that bit of info, the Central Market grocery stores are all designed like a simple, single-path maze with only a couple of shortcuts.  Essentially, a shopping trip through CM means you pass virtually every product in the store.

You also don't want to crowd your customers.  A shopping study showed that aisles that were too narrowly spaced meant that customers collided with/brushed against other customers more frequently (the "butt-brush factor").  That repeated disruption of personal space resulted in people leaving those areas...and those stores.

*Help your customers network.*  Most game stores in my area (and in the 2 cities in which I resided before) have had some kind of message board or folder for those seeking other gamers of a particular game.  If it hadn't been for Dragon's Lair in Austin providing a message board, I might not have found the guys I gamed with for my 4 years in Law School.  Insanity might have resulted.

*Ring your own bell*  You can follow all of the best advice offered in this thread and still fail if nobody knows what services you offer.  How best to do that depends on your budget and the resources available in your area.

For more tips, check out Paco Underhill's books, _Why We Buy_ and _Call of the Mall._  They're both fun reads and educational to both retailers and customers alike.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Buy-Science-Shopping/dp/0684849135[/ame]
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Call-Mall-Geography-Shopping-Author/dp/B000F3T4CC/ref=pd_sim_b_1[/ame]


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## PaulofCthulhu (Jun 29, 2008)

My local gaming stores blinked out of existence one by one. They no longer exist.

Few remain in the UK (with its population of 60 million). 

From my experience the net is good for supporting existing tabletop players, but not so good at recruiting new ones, that's likely the crux. Overall, atrophy.


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## Felix (Jun 29, 2008)

> As a gamer with an MBA, I know enough about the retail end of the biz to know that certain big retailers are allowed to buy gaming products for much less than LGS's can.



Oh, of course. As a gamer with a MA Econ (since we're flashing creds ) I'm a huge fan of economies of scale and bulk discounts. That's one of the reasons I dislike the pejorative tone gamersgambit took with the large retailers. 

And gamersgambit, DA is absolutely right: service is the arena where you can compete with large retailers and win. If the service is good enough, it will be worth paying premium prices. You'll have to work hard convincing people of that, though.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 29, 2008)

Some other features my LGS's have that I didn't mention:

*Deep backstock, dilligent OoP searching*  Game Chest in Dallas has games dating back to the dawn of the hobby, including such wonderments as the CCGs Doom Trooper and Hyborean Gates.  They (and others) will work hard to find things Amazon and Borders never heard of.

*Demonstrable Game Knowledge.* Even if you can't demo a game during regular business hours, if you or your staff know the game well enough by reading reviews or actual game-play, you'll make sales.  Amazon may make suggestions based on buying habits, but you'll be able to make informed decisions by comparing the games' mechanics & play, difficulty, and quirks.


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## jmucchiello (Jun 29, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Also, examine your store's layout  Like I mentioned above, the longer someone stays in your store, the more money they're likely to spend.  Following that bit of info, the Central Market grocery stores are all designed like a simple, single-path maze with only a couple of shortcuts.  Essentially, a shopping trip through CM means you pass virtually every product in the store.



Actually grocery stores use a different trick. They place the most frequently purchased items as far from one another as possible. That's why produce and dairy are usually in the two corners farthest from the front door. Not sure there's an equivalent in the GS retail space.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 29, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Some other features my LGS's have that I didn't mention:
> 
> *Deep backstock, dilligent OoP searching*  Game Chest in Dallas has games dating back to the dawn of the hobby, including such wonderments as the CCGs Doom Trooper and Hyborean Gates.  They (and others) will work hard to find things Amazon and Borders never heard of.




Unless the game store owner is getting a premium on them, I can't see this being a real value added stream.

1. Takes up space.

2. Slow moving.

3. Taxed year after year.


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## Corjay (Jun 29, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> This is a pretty interesting topic. I decided to do this not too long ago. My (pretty large) group of in-game customers about had an apoplectic fit, because they'd been coming to the store for nigh-on ten+ years without having to pay for the privelege of playing there.
> 
> When I explained to them that the store was staying afloat on the backs of the Magic players (who paid money, at tournaments, for the privelege of playing at the store, buying their own prizes for the group in the process), that helped a bit. But (and this is a big but) they didn't want to pay a flat fee that didn't get them anything.
> 
> ...



This is actually quite a brilliant solution. Good thinking. How do you track it? Punch cards? Customer keeps their receipts? Account Book? Database? (Customer keeps receipts is the best way to turn it into pure profit.)


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## Caliban (Jun 29, 2008)

Reveille said:


> Here is my problem I *had* 2 GSs, one Local and Friendly, the other one not so Friendly and not so local.





FYI, there are good game stores that aren't located in malls.  

I frequent 3 different game stores across the Valley that support D&D by providing gaming space and hosting RPGA events. 

West Valley: (my preferred store because I game with the owner)

Imperial Outpost Games  
Address:   4920 W Thunderbird Rd # 121, 
Glendale, AZ 85306 
Phone: (602) 978-0467 


Central Valley:

Game Depot
3136 S Mcclintock Dr Ste 11
Tempe, AZ 85282
Phone: (480) 966-4727 

East Valley:

Gamers Inn
1232 E Southern Ave #14
Mesa, AZ 85204
Ph: 480.507.0509


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## Caliban (Jun 29, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> I'm wondering if anyone else has any creative suggestions along these lines?




A simple system that's seems to work for the stores here in Phoenix is hosting events for the local RPGA clubs. The club charges the players $1-2 per mod, and then raffles off a gift certificate for the store. That way the players don't feel like they are paying "rent" and product gets moved off the shelf. 

Having a fridge with sodas and snacks is another moneymaker - RPGA mods generally run 3-5 hours.

If you don't have an RPGA club in your area, help start one. For all it's flaws, the RPGA does provide a stable group of diverse gamers that need a place to play. A FLGS can be a good "neutral" ground to play at, out of the way of kids, spouses, or roommates. (It also keeps the gamer funk out of your house...)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 29, 2008)

> Actually grocery stores use a different trick. They place the most frequently purchased items as far from one another as possible. That's why produce and dairy are usually in the two corners farthest from the front door.




Right- and the Central Market layout is a conscious departure from that norm.



> Not sure there's an equivalent in the GS retail space.




Not exactly, but there are some close substitutes.  For instance, one of my FLGSs places all RPG New Releases in the back of the store.  You have to go past everything else to see the new goodies.  Meanwhile, up in the front by the registers, you find dice, CCGs and CMGs.

Another store runs all of their demos in the back of the store.  Again, you enter the store, see the ad saying they're running a game demo, and have to wander past all of the other stock to get there.


> Unless the game store owner is getting a premium on them, I can't see this being a real value added stream. <snip many good points>




Having not seen his bottom line, I can't say for sure.

I suspect that he gets is a core of loyal repeat customers who routinely go in for OoP game X, then buy New Gee Whiz Game 2Ed.

After all, he's been doing that for at least 15 years, and his store must be clearing a profit because he's in an actual, major indoor mall right off of a major freeway.  His rent must be the highest of any LGS in D/FW.



> After much back-and-forth we came up with a solution (and I post it here in case any other FLGS owners are reading, or for you to share it with your FLGS owners):




That isn't a bad customer rewards program.

One of my favorites used to have a punch card system- you got a punch for every $25 spent on gaming goods and after 10 punches, you got a $25 store credit.

Like your program, it rewards the customer in such a way that it encourages them to keep returning to the store.  Unlike your program, if you didn't get your ticket punched, your payoff was delayed by that much.  In a way, that makes it better- you get the benefit of having your customers repeat business, but don't necessarily have to give them their payoff when they would normally have earned it.  Of course, they usually gave _regular customers_ another punch card if they forgot their original, and then unified the cards down the road.



> Having a fridge with sodas and snacks is another moneymaker - RPGA mods generally run 3-5 hours.




Especially if there is no nearby food and/or your store has a "No outside food & drinks" policy.


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## Lord Xtheth (Jun 29, 2008)

Where I'm at there are 3 major FLGS... One of the stores is HUGE, has tons of playing space but they take every chance they get to rip off their customers. Their Card section is underlit, leading to under quality singles to be sold at near mint costs. Their random packed minis strangely "open during shipping" and no one pulls good rares... even though the store itself has alot of the big pull singles for sale. I stopped going there entirely. 

One other FLGS is very friendly and has a fair amount of gaming space, but he doesn't ever bring in enough stock in. The guy sells out his product the same day he brings it in, and doesn't go ahead and make bigger orders or even try to get enough products for his customers. Otherwise it's a good place to go.

The other FLGS is the one I go to now... except it's realy a comic shop that just so happens to also sell my games. They always have stock... and I've bought stuff by the case from them. They earned my support.

For books however, I went to Amazon. I like delivery to my door... and I wanted to make sure there was product... Now Amazon set back my recieve date 3 times and I'm starting to reconsider. The down side is that NONE of the FLGSs here Have 4E products at all.

Lame


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 29, 2008)

> For books however, I went to Amazon. I like delivery to my door... and I wanted to make sure there was product... Now Amazon set back my recieve date 3 times and I'm starting to reconsider. The down side is that NONE of the FLGSs here Have 4E products at all.
> 
> Lame




There may be a distribution problem in your local area.

I've seen that- I live in the D/FW area, and when 3Ed first came out, I was getting new products about a month ahead of my buddy in Quincy, MA (a Boston suburb).


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## Rakor (Jun 29, 2008)

Maybe it's just me but I've never really gotten important service from a FLGS. I've heard lots of people say that the end of the LGS will be the end of gaming but I really don't see it. It's word of mouth that drives it. I've talked lots of people into trying it and the ones who like it will put some effort into looking for gaming groups in their area. The best way to find gaming groups is either through college/university gaming clubs or the Internet. I think FLGS's are neat but I really doubt they are neccessary.


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## jdrakeh (Jun 29, 2008)

As far as suggestions for drawing in customers, the big FLGS here (Compleat Games & Hobbies) hosts its own three-day mini cons in-store (with boardgame, RPG, CCG, and minis events), after hours "Indie RPG" game nights, and other special events (e.g., they hosted an auction for which customers could bring in items that other customers bid on, with proceeds being applied to the accounts of contributing customers as store credit). 

Also, they shrewdly discounted all third-party D&D 3x material by 30% within days of D&D 4e being announced, ensuring that they still made a roughly 20% profit on those items while moving inventory that would otherwise be collecting dust with the arrival of the new edition. The guy that runs the store really knows the ins and outs of retail, and it shows.


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## billd91 (Jun 29, 2008)

Kzach said:


> In the case of my store, I failed to adapt to the changing market (movie rentals) and so I lost everything. I don't blame Blockbuster for this and nor do I blame pirating. I blame myself for not being able to adapt and grow the business.




Whether or not you could have kept competing or not, in this case, I don't know. But making the assumption that it's always possible to compete is, I think, incorrect. It's quite possible that whatever you did, aside from completely changing your type of business from video rental to laundromat, might have never been enough.
In other words, there may well be some businesses you cannot compete against given the particular local environment. At which point, the blame you'd have to take is not getting out when the getting was good. But while that maintains the point about looking at a business as an investment, it rather defeats the point of changing to remain competitive in that line of business.


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## billd91 (Jun 29, 2008)

Teflon Billy said:


> The FLGS--even the insanely good ones I have here in Vancouver--are not the "cradle of the gaming population". They just aren't, and I'm not sure they ever have been.
> 
> <snip>
> I know tons of folks who have come to Heroclix, Magic: The Gathering, and Warhammer Minis from the FLGS.




I'm not sure I'd characterize my FLGS as the cradle of gaming either. But it certainly has and does expand people's views of the hobby. I know of a few people who seek out games solely by trolling around on the internet. But I know many more who notice something in the stores first and get it there. 

So I think the last by from TB about coming into other games is certainly true. If not the cradle, it's been a significant part of the educational system in which you learn about the existence of many other disciplines (games) and shape your ambitions. I have very fond memories of browsing through a well-stocked game store, reading the backs of products, feeling their weight, comparing with similar products, and having my eyes opened about many of the games out there. These memories date back over 20 years and continue to the present... including just yesterday.


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## Aria Silverhands (Jun 29, 2008)

Felix said:


> Oh, of course. As a gamer with a MA Econ (since we're flashing creds ) I'm a huge fan of economies of scale and bulk discounts. That's one of the reasons I dislike the pejorative tone gamersgambit took with the large retailers.
> 
> And gamersgambit, DA is absolutely right: service is the arena where you can compete with large retailers and win. If the service is good enough, it will be worth paying premium prices. You'll have to work hard convincing people of that, though.



Yeah right.  The people will just buy online and play at the game store.  I think the unfair price breaks demanded by large retailers is detrimental to small businesses and that practice should be outlawed.  Amazon doesn't have thousands of storefronts to maintain and the people hired to run them, not to mention all the other bills, that would be required to reach the amount of people they do online.  It's an unfair advantage over small business owners.  There should be a limit on the discounts you get for bulk purchases and a limit on online discounting.


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## DaveMage (Jun 29, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:


> Yeah right.  The people will just buy online and play at the game store.  I think the unfair price breaks demanded by large retailers is detrimental to small businesses and that practice should be outlawed.  Amazon doesn't have thousands of storefronts to maintain and the people hired to run them, not to mention all the other bills, that would be required to reach the amount of people they do online.  It's an unfair advantage over small business owners.  There should be a limit on the discounts you get for bulk purchases and a limit on online discounting.




So amazon should be punished for its ingeneous business model?  Hardly.

The problem is (as I understand it) that the distribution system is based on markup %, rather than a flat rate/book.  The model is fine when you're selling $5 books.  Few people may mind paying an extra $1.00 (on that $5 book) to shop locally.  However, many people *do* mind paying an extra $14 to buy locally (as is the case with the 4E PHB: $34.99 in the store and $20 and change at amazon).  With 3 core books, that's an extra $42.  Way too much to justify "buying local" IMO.

The distribution model is broken on pricey RPGs.  Don't blame amazon for eliminating costly overhead and most of the potential of the five-finger discount.  LGS will have to adapt, find a new model, or close.


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## Aristotle (Jun 29, 2008)

> After much back-and-forth we came up with a solution (and I post it here in case any other FLGS owners are reading, or for you to share it with your FLGS owners):



So a trimmed down version of this would basically be. Pay $5 a week towards future purchases and get a week's worth of gaming at store facilities. Buy a product and each $5 worth of product you purchased (with cash, not with store credit) gets you a week of in store facilities use. That's actually pretty smart. the table space is still free, so long as you buy your stuff at the store. I'd consider using a store like that.


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## Corjay (Jun 29, 2008)

If the LGS is charging full price for a product then there's something wrong. Either they're gouging you or they're not taking advantage of specialty business practices. I never pay full price at either of the FLGS in my area.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 29, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:


> Yeah right.  The people will just buy online and play at the game store.  I think the unfair price breaks demanded by large retailers is detrimental to small businesses and that practice should be outlawed.  Amazon doesn't have thousands of storefronts to maintain and the people hired to run them, not to mention all the other bills, that would be required to reach the amount of people they do online.  It's an unfair advantage over small business owners.  There should be a limit on the discounts you get for bulk purchases and a limit on online discounting.




How does that arguement work for Wallmart that does have thousands of storefronts and people?


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## Gort (Jun 29, 2008)

*shrug* As far as I'm concerned, the FLGS is a bad business model. You sell the same products as the online store does, at a 40% markup, and I have to go out of my way to get it. To me, that's a ripoff. I'd say the same about any other store selling standard merchandise at a markup - high street electronics and PC parts suppliers, for instance.

It's pretty much time for such businesses to fade away.


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## Aria Silverhands (Jun 29, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> So amazon should be punished for its ingeneous business model?  Hardly.
> 
> The problem is (as I understand it) that the distribution system is based on markup %, rather than a flat rate/book.  The model is fine when you're selling $5 books.  Few people may mind paying an extra $1.00 (on that $5 book) to shop locally.  However, many people *do* mind paying an extra $14 to buy locally (as is the case with the 4E PHB: $34.99 in the store and $20 and change at amazon).  With 3 core books, that's an extra $42.  Way too much to justify "buying local" IMO.
> 
> The distribution model is broken on pricey RPGs.  Don't blame amazon for eliminating costly overhead and most of the potential of the five-finger discount.  LGS will have to adapt, find a new model, or close.



Discount limits should be put in place.


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## Gort (Jun 29, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:


> Discount limits should be put in place.




Yes, lets punish the consumer because your business is unprofitable.


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## Corjay (Jun 29, 2008)

You could consider that damaging the consumer, or you can consider it encouraging market diversity. I prefer the latter. When the small businesses die what you'll end up with is a wasteland of empty lots, burger joints, nowhere to go, and a cascading economy.

When you ask "what happened to my job?" you can look back and say "wow, I guess I should have supported small businesses better.

Note that I say "small businesses" and not just "LGS", because this issue affects more than your local gaming store. Cheap internet sales affects all small businesses, and even large real world businesses.


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## Gort (Jun 29, 2008)

Corjay said:


> You could consider that damaging the consumer, or you can consider it encouraging market diversity. I prefer the latter. When the small businesses die what you'll end up with is a wasteland of empty lots, burger joints, nowhere to go, and a cascading economy.
> 
> When you ask "what happened to my job?" you can look back and say "wow, I guess I should have supported small businesses better.
> 
> Note that I say "small businesses" and not just "LGS", because this issue affects more than your local gaming store. Cheap internet sales affects all small businesses, and even large real world businesses.




A small business needs to actually offer something above and beyond the large businesses. I'm not sure where you've pulled "burger joints" from - restaurants do well because they offer service and food that's above and beyond "burger joint" fare. Same deal with small butchers and food stores - they offer something higher-quality (or they should) to justify their higher prices.

What these stores are doing is offering the exact same product as the larger chains for a 40% markup, and are considerably less convenient to the average consumer. There's nothing there for me. I don't actually want to roleplay in a store with random people - I'd rather do it at home with friends. I wasn't introduced to gaming at a shop, I learnt it from a friend. I don't owe these guys anything.

I don't know where you got this nightmare scenario of no jobs and nothing but burger joints from - we already went through this stuff when supermarkets appeared. I for one am glad I don't have to go to a dozen different shops just to get my groceries, and it's not like the economy collapsed over it. Were you there to smash automatic looms when those were invented as well?


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## philreed (Jun 29, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:


> The people will just buy online and play at the game store.




Yes, they will. And that's why game stores need to get heavily into selling drinks and snacks. Also, pencils, paper, dice . . . all of the extras that someone may forget at home.


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## Dice4Hire (Jun 29, 2008)

Yes, the line between a service company and a retail company. LGS needs to move more heavily into a service industry style model and not try to exist solely as a retail outlet. 

Services are great, but difficult to pull off and require a lot of work, and training on the part of the owner. Retail, simply selling what is in stock is easier (at least it seems to me) but is mroe chancy as the Internet is a str0ng competitor.

Services would be what would bring me to a store. And I feel that providing Internet, drinks nad such, as well as a place to play, are all services.


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## racoffin (Jun 29, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> As far as suggestions for drawing in customers, the big FLGS here (Compleat Games & Hobbies) hosts its own three-day mini cons in-store (with boardgame, RPG, CCG, and minis events), after hours "Indie RPG" game nights, and other special events (e.g., they hosted an auction for which customers could bring in items that other customers bid on, with proceeds being applied to the accounts of contributing customers as store credit).
> 
> Also, they shrewdly discounted all third-party D&D 3x material by 30% within days of D&D 4e being announced, ensuring that they still made a roughly 20% profit on those items while moving inventory that would otherwise be collecting dust with the arrival of the new edition. The guy that runs the store really knows the ins and outs of retail, and it shows.




Complete does a pretty good job with events, and Gamer's Haven runs various minis competitions as well, IIRC.

Another way to draw in some customers or at least get some interest going would be to discount a different product, line, or group every unit of time (week, month, whathaveyou) and use it as a loss leader, drawing customers to that line and having them buy the stuff not on sale after they are interested. While you can't go as deep a discount as some of the big box stores or online stores, even a ten percent savings can often be the difference in a sale and the customer walking out.

I try to support those stores that seem interested in the customers around here, and while I don't play in the stores themselves (most seem more interested in MtG and Warhammer games at the moment), the stores are handy to shop in when I am in the area.

I do agree with a previous poster that an area off the main sales floor or games held after hours would be a great idea, for those people wanting a bit more of a mature game (or just not to be in the middle of a busy store while trying to concentrate on the game). And ditto on the comments regarding light, dirt, smell, and so forth. A store that resembles a poorly run porno shop is a fast way to lose patrons.


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## IanArgent (Jun 29, 2008)

OK - I think I may  have to trek up to Fair Lawn one of these days. You're about 10 mi/10 min farther away than my *F*LGS (and much closer than my not-so-F-LGS); but I'm not all that impressed by the FLGS. (It has the advantage of being very close to my work though).

I used to come out to your predecessor in the '90s when I was going to college in Hoboken.

Any chance you carry Shadowrun?


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## racoffin (Jun 29, 2008)

Additionally, having the salespeople knowledgeable in more than one game is useful. You might even think about having a binder up front and near the displays with a quick synopsis of what X or Y game is about. Some people shop by impulse and don't know what a certain game system offers or what the core products are. The binder with some well-typed descriptions, some of the product listings off the web, or even reviews can help.

You might also think about putting together different packages (linked to the idea of discounting a product or having it be the Item of The Week/Month/Whatever). Make it your star, make your own "gift basket/box" with the core product for that game, or a selection of paints and brushes plus a few miniatures, and so forth. There are so many products that it can sometimes be overwealming to the gamer. This idea can also help the non-gamer parent/spouse/partner/friend in picking out a gift for the gamer.


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## jdrakeh (Jun 29, 2008)

racoffin said:


> A store that resembles a poorly run porno shop is a fast way to lose patrons.




Oooo. . . that reminds me. . . I have no idea if it's still open, but there was once a comic/game store in Wichita, KS called "The Shadow Sanctum" that fit this bill. It was a creepy place that reeked of desperation and failure.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 29, 2008)

> What these stores are doing is offering the exact same product as the larger chains for a 40% markup, and are considerably less convenient to the average consumer.




Again, its _not_ a markup.  Most of the price differential is due to bulk discounts, economies of scale, and in some cases, cross-subsidies with other products- often, they're _selling _the product for less than most LGSs' can _purchase_ them.

In some markets, I wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't even a bit of predatory pricing...but that's tough to prove.


> How does that arguement work for Wallmart that does have thousands of storefronts and people?




Wal-Mart generally owns its buildings and the land its on, whereas most LGSs rent their space.  That has definite accounting impacts upon the bottom line and profitability.

Wal-Mart operates like a lot of other megabusinesses do.  As mentioned above, their size gets them certain economies of scale, and they can demand and get bulk purchase discounts.  That, along with the ability to cross-subsidize with other products (with higher profit margins), means that they can often sell a product cheaper than their smaller competitors can acquire it.

Wal-Mart has been through and is also currently under multiple investigations for predatory pricing and unfair labor practices which result in underpayment of employees...which further affects their ability to compete, if true.

Then there are more subtle practices, like exercise of monopsony/oligopsony power.

Like GM and the big auto manufacturers, Wal-Mart is in such a strong position in the economy that they can get those bulk discount purchases on credit...then pay late.  When they do so, they often pay less than the amount agreed upon because the small suppliers (with very little economic leverage) have bills of their own to pay, and ANY payment they get helps them avoid going under.  There are documented cases (in the auto industry, at least) of large companies paying as little as 30% of the cost of the products they order when things like the time-value of money are factored in.

IOW, big companies get a discount, pay late (sometimes _months _late), then pay less than their agreed upon discounted amount, and get away with it because the sellers can't survive without them.

This, like everything else above, further enhances their ability to charge lower than LGS game store prices and still profit.


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## Corjay (Jun 29, 2008)

Gort said:


> A small business needs to actually offer something above and beyond the large businesses. I'm not sure where you've pulled "burger joints" from - restaurants do well because they offer service and food that's above and beyond "burger joint" fare. Same deal with small butchers and food stores - they offer something higher-quality (or they should) to justify their higher prices.
> 
> What these stores are doing is offering the exact same product as the larger chains for a 40% markup, and are considerably less convenient to the average consumer. There's nothing there for me. I don't actually want to roleplay in a store with random people - I'd rather do it at home with friends. I wasn't introduced to gaming at a shop, I learnt it from a friend. I don't owe these guys anything.
> 
> I don't know where you got this nightmare scenario of no jobs and nothing but burger joints from - we already went through this stuff when supermarkets appeared. I for one am glad I don't have to go to a dozen different shops just to get my groceries, and it's not like the economy collapsed over it. Were you there to smash automatic looms when those were invented as well?



What I said is a very real scenario that economists have been very concerned with since the advent of online sales, and even more so now as the internet revolution is in full swing and the public is becoming increasingly more internet savvy and young computer users turn into adult computer users. The change is happening very fast and small businesses are collapsing at ever increasing and alarming rates.

When I said "burger joints", what I meant is the service industry. And people that have posted saying that FLGS need to become more service oriented if they want to survive is right on the money. With the advent of the internet, the service industry and malls are all that's going to be left on the street in 20 years.

No jobs comes from the fact that you don't need a whole heck of a lot of people to run a wearhouse or computer orders. With the collapse of small businesses (the major source of employment in any country), you get rid of employment opportunities and unemployment numbers skyrocket. The economy is fragile, and small businesses have already taken hit after hit since Bush took office. The question is when does the small business industry fall through. Since the internet has been the biggest economic competitor to small businesses, the attitude to prices is exactly what is threatening to collapse the small business industry.

We could turn this thread into an economic debate, but this subject severely diverts from both the subject of this thread and the purpose of this site, so let's just ignore the particulars of economics and just focus on the effect on FLGS. It's my fault for diverting this to the larger subject of economics, but I'd like to abandon that subject to get back to the main subject of this thread.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 29, 2008)

> ...let's just ignore the particulars of economics and just focus on the effect on FLGS.




Well, its not as if economics was irrelevant.



> It's my fault for diverting this to the larger subject of economics, but I'd like to abandon that subject to get back to the main subject of this thread.




I think I'm at least partly to blame as well.


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## DemonKing (Jun 30, 2008)

I used to try and support my FLGS (Napoleon's in Brisbane, Australia) and every time I visted I made a point of buying something, but it got to the stage that their selection was so poor, and their prices so high in comparison to online vendors even after a discount, I just couldn't be bothered any more.

Yes it's sad that businesses are going under because Amazon is undercutting everyone but as a consumer, if I'd bought the 4th edition slipcase here I would have paid $AUS120 or more, whereas getting it from Amazon only set me back $AUS69 delivered to my door! That's a pretty amazing saving.

To be honest, I don't need what the FLGS used to offer any more - with a young family to support I need value for money and convenience these days, not a place to hang out and chat about games in.


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## Korgoth (Jun 30, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:


> Discount limits should be put in place.




Yes, and let's also round up and arrest grandmas holding yard sales because they're undercutting local merchants.

This is the most bizarre, anti-consumer idea I think I've ever heard. Do you own a game store, by chance?


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## Philotomy Jurament (Jun 30, 2008)

After all my talk about how prices are so much better online, I ended up going to the FLGS, yesterday, with my wife and two of the kids, and dropping $180 on various stuff (even some stuff I could've got cheaper online).  I guess the lesson, there, is "get them in the shop..."

Amusingly, the whole reason we went to the FLGS was this thread.  I mentioned it to my wife, and she said, "Hey, we should go to our game store..." 

The store we go to is well-lit, clean and pretty well-supplied (especially considering its size -- it's not large).  The owner is friendly and attentive, which is nice.  (His wife -- I think -- gave my kids each a free comic book that was perfect for their respective ages.) There isn't much room for in-store gaming, though, and every time I've been in, the gaming table has been occupied by people playing a miniatures game (probably Warhammer).  I hadn't noticed anything on previous visits, but this time there was a distinctive "funky" body odor smell; my wife commented on it (to me) when we left.

We looked for, but did not find, the latest expansion for _Arkham Horror_ (i.e. "Kingsport").  We also looked for, but did not find _Power Grid_.  We'll probably buy those online.

I have to admit that I did find some interesting stuff I hadn't heard about online, like _Faery's Tale (deluxe)_, which I bought to run for my daughters and one of their cousins, who love faeries.  I also got _Zombie Fluxx_ (we have _Fluxx_, but the zombie thing will go over well with my older kids, especially my eldest son) and _Blokus_ (to play with the whole family).  I was looking at _Hey, That's My Fish_, but decided to wait on that.  My wife tried to convince me to get _Runebound_, but we've got several games in that vein, so I demurred.  For me, I picked up several of the C&C _Castle Zagyg_ town modules, and the Mongoose edition of _Traveller_ (which looks pretty similar to the original, which is why I bought it).  And a new dice bag.  And my wife bought a new set of dice.  And my youngest son got a couple of DC lego-style "action figures."  And we scored some leftovers from Free RPG Day (and those comics from Free Comic Book day).  

All-in-all, I think it was a worthwhile trip.


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## Storyteller01 (Jun 30, 2008)

F5 said:


> Speaking as a customer, and not a store owner, you may be looking at the situation backwards, Gamersgambit.
> 
> The gaming space you provide, the demos you run, the shelf layout that showcases cool stuff better than the Big Box stores do...that's the stuff that keeps your customers coming to you in the first place.  You don't want to say "I'm losing out on retail space, and can't afford to do this stuff"...you can't afford NOT to do that stuff, or what reason to gamers have to come in and support you?
> 
> ...





This is really not true. I'm an employee of my FLGS, and having a gaming area does not bring in customers. Discounting our product lower than the competition does. We regularly have customers come to us for a product, then go back to another place for the tables. Even though the other place was selling said product.

Amazon sold the core books at over 50% off of retail, blatantly doing so before official release dates. In an industry where those who sell first get the business, this kills the LGS. This is made worse when people in our store for conversation or atmosphere, not buying anything moind you, tell customers 'dude, you can get that at (kaza, amazon, etc) cheaper'. Or worse yet, 'I have a copy on PDF. Give me your e-mail and I'll send you a copy'. This among other things is causing us to rethink selling rpgs. We make nearly 10 times as much with other games.

People want cheap. No amount of atmosphere or gaming space will change this. Eventually it'll kill the game. With only on line sites selling, only word of mouth will get word out.


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## Corjay (Jun 30, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Yes, and let's also round up and arrest grandmas holding yard sales because they're undercutting local merchants.
> 
> This is the most bizarre, anti-consumer idea I think I've ever heard. Do you own a game store, by chance?



ROFL. OMG!!! How do you go from putting a cap to online discounts to arresting grandmas? Give me a break, dude. Let's keep in the realm of realism, shall we? We weren't talking about arrests. We're talking about price control, which, as Bill Clinton showed, is not only within the realm of government's power and rights, but is a healthy practice for the economy. (EDIT: Which, I might add, Bush has refused to add caps to anything in any area and has even lifted caps, contributing to damage to small businesses just as we're discussing as well as to rises in inflation.)

Dude. You should read a little or at least turn the channel to CNN from time to time.


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## PaulofCthulhu (Jun 30, 2008)

philreed said:


> Yes, they will. And that's why game stores need to get heavily into selling drinks and snacks. Also, pencils, paper, dice . . . all of the extras that someone may forget at home.




From experience, I believe there is truth in this.

Our last local games store did actually make more money selling snacks, stationery and related accessories than actual games. Not enough to keep it open, but perhaps it points the way to a possible future.

In such a future, games 'stores' will be primarily for playing games in, with any games orders as special or mail orders.

If that's never going to be a viable model, I don't know what else can help the local games store in the long run, alas.


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## Korgoth (Jun 30, 2008)

Corjay said:


> Dude. You should read a little or at least turn the channel to CNN from time to time.




Don't tell me to read a little. It's an insult. Do we have to trot out and compare degrees now? Mine are probably bigger than yours, so don't go there.

Second, let me make sure I'm perfectly clear on what you and Aria think should be done: you think that the government should effectively enforce a minimum price on gaming products by outlawing discounts which are too favorable to the consumer? That is in fact what you are suggesting, right?


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## philreed (Jun 30, 2008)

PaulofCthulhu said:


> In such a future, games 'stores' will be primarily for playing games in, with any games orders as special or mail orders.




Which is exactly why I think game store owners should start thinking of their stores as "mini-conventions" and not just stores. Make the store a fun place to hang out, and earn income on the extras.

Hell, a game store could do a lot worse than to grab six or seven classic arcade machines and set them up in the gaming room. A Gauntlet machine (Gauntlet II, please) should eat any quarters that don't make it to the snacks or drinks.


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## Corjay (Jun 30, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Don't tell me to read a little. It's an insult. Do we have to trot out and compare degrees now? Mine are probably bigger than yours, so don't go there.
> 
> Second, let me make sure I'm perfectly clear on what you and Aria think should be done: you think that the government should effectively enforce a minimum price on gaming products by outlawing discounts which are too favorable to the consumer? That is in fact what you are suggesting, right?



No. Absolutely not. That's far too narrow and neither of us mentioned anything about minimum prices. That would be impossible to regulate. We said to affect only "discounts". I don't know about Aria, but I never said to limit it to gaming products. I was speaking of general discount caps, particularly on non-clearance products. Reducing undercutting by internet vendors.

EDIT: By the way, by "discount" I mean discount percentages, not fixed discount dollar amounts.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 30, 2008)

> Hell, a game store could do a lot worse than to grab six or seven classic arcade machines and set them up in the gaming room. A Gauntlet machine (Gauntlet II, please) should eat any quarters that don't make it to the snacks or drinks.




A few different chains in D/FW have tried that- either with mini-arcades or mini-LANs- with mixed success.

I suspect one location that closed was simply in a bad spot- well off the mall's center.

One of the ones that ran the LAN did OK, but eventually had to dismantle it to make space for more profitable CCGs and CMGs.  The pace of development for software and hardware probably also played a major factor in that as well.

The real problem with the arcade games is their noise.  Some may find repeated blurts of "OOOOoooh- Barbarian shot the food!" or "FINISH HIM!" to be somewhat distracting.


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## Mercutio01 (Jun 30, 2008)

dpmcalister said:


> I just wish I had an FLGS. I've got an LGS, but it is far from friendly and I will never darken it's door again!



QFT.  My LGS (which is local by distance [<10 miles], but not by time and/or cost and/or public transportation [>25 minutes and >$15 parking or >45 minutes and >$10 bus and subway fare]) is never friendly. They were a bunch of elitist bastards who sneered and were rude the one time I bought items there.  They were fairly nice to me, but not to my wife (who isn't a gamer and spent a lot of time looking at the fiction books) and were so significantly loud about criticizing some people who came into the store, that they lost a few sales, including mine when I had about $400 to spend (tax return).

Quite frankly, I don't feel bad in steering people I know away from there and into the local bookstores.  There I've been treated nicely, even by the people who think gaming is odd, and I get the books for a much better price.  So, until I find a Friendly truly Local Gaming Store, I'll save my loyalty for my FLComic Book Shop and my FL Barnes and Noble.

(I swear, those guys though Comic Book Guy was a great role model and decided to base a game store around insulting anyone who entered their doors.  Eff them.)


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## Korgoth (Jun 30, 2008)

Corjay said:


> No. Absolutely not. That's far too narrow and neither of us mentioned anything about minimum prices. That would be impossible to regulate. We said to affect only "discounts". I don't know about Aria, but I never said to limit it to gaming products. I was speaking of general discount caps, particularly on non-clearance products. Reducing undercutting by internet vendors.
> 
> EDIT: By the way, by "discount" I mean discount percentages, not fixed discount dollar amounts.




I understand that, but if you say (to take a page from Games Workshop) that it's _illegal_ to give more than a 20% on internet merchandise, you are enforcing an effective minimum of $28 for a 4E Player's Handbook. That's my point... you are putting an effective minimum price by limiting the percentage of discount.

An online retailer ought to be allowed to sell 4E gift sets for $1 if they want. I don't want you regulating how cheaply they're allowed to sell, how often they may have "blowout sales" and how much they're allowed to sell, etc. Why waste all that tax money putting a squad of bureaucrats in charge of each retailers sales department, just to put the squeeze on the taxpaying consumer? If you want to pee away my tax dollars, then do it by giving subsidies to game shops, not by making it illegal for Amazon to give me a good deal.


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## Corjay (Jun 30, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> I understand that, but if you say (to take a page from Games Workshop) that it's _illegal_ to give more than a 20% on internet merchandise, you are enforcing an effective minimum of $28 for a 4E Player's Handbook. That's my point... you are putting an effective minimum price by limiting the percentage of discount.
> 
> An online retailer ought to be allowed to sell 4E gift sets for $1 if they want. I don't want you regulating how cheaply they're allowed to sell, how often they may have "blowout sales" and how much they're allowed to sell, etc. Why waste all that tax money putting a squad of bureaucrats in charge of each retailers sales department, just to put the squeeze on the taxpaying consumer? If you want to pee away my tax dollars, then do it by giving subsidies to game shops, not by making it illegal for Amazon to give me a good deal.



Again, I don't believe I specified online vendors as the only ones affected by the cap, though my focus was indeed online vendors, but the law should apply to all, not just online vendors. It's not like online vendors should be picked on. It's just that their undercutting is exactly what inspired the idea.

They should not be able to sell the gift set for $1. Undercutting is like price gouging, just on a different end of the scale. Instead of affecting the customer, it affects small businesses who can't afford to provide the same discounts.


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## bobacus (Jun 30, 2008)

Some suggestions:

THINGS NOT TO DO TO RUN A SUCCESSFUL GAME STORE

1. DO not hire crappy,just wanna play games, blare my Slipknot music, low IQ'd  people. If I walk into a store and the guy is to busy talking to another employee about Brittney Spears or some crap, And I am just standing there to be helped. Fire those people. Have some friends come in secretly and have them rate your employees.

2. For all that is holy. Don't play games during company time. And then get pissed when I ask for help cause I interrupted your Warhammer game.

3. Clean up your shop. I am not a big minis fan, but do we have to have 50 square miles of Mini terrains blocking the way to the bathrooms, chairs, fire exits, etc??? Also Take down the TNA posters. It may be cool for the teen boys, but isnt family friendly.

4. Get rid of the Yu-GI_OH crowd. Teens have nowhere to hang out in this day and age, but unfortunately they dont pay. They just want a place to hang. They curse, are loud and are bad for business. I find alot of stores who need revenue start running tournaments for certain games and the rowdy bunch just takes over. I may be a old fuddy dud (36) but when a store I liked put in a Dance Dance revolution game and had it on during MTG tournies..... YEAH,I aint coming back. Family gamers will be more loyal, spend more money and easier to deal with. Have a tournament once and awhile. 

5. Sell some stuff so I can walk around in the store.  Why do you still have that Spawn Resin figure from 1998 still sitting on a shelf that could be holding new product? You are a business to sell things, not collect stuff. If it doesnt sell there, there is always ebay. Gotta keep the merchandise flowing (If I see one more place with MTG: Homelands packs on the shelf I am gonna scream)

6. Provide perks for your LOYAL customers. See a guy come in more than once a month? Offer him a discount card. Offer extras. whatever. Like they say, "A happy customer will tell 3 of his friends about you. A unhappy one will tell 10"

7. Actually talk to each customer. From the guy "just looking" To the person who just buys a book once and awhile. TALK TO THEM. Talk up the store. Tell them about events. Tell them about products. Listen to what they are into.You have to actually sell things to make money! And you won't know what to sell if you dont ask your customers. Dont just slap some product on a shelf and hope it gets bought.

8.  Be a gentleman to woman. Pretty. Ugly. Whatever. I believe the success to a game store is getting the ladies involved. But if a cute girl comes in and just wants to look at some books dont HIT ON HER! DON"T OOGLE HER! And don't let anyone else in the store do that. These women have brothers, husbands, kids, boyfriends other girlfriends that will listen to them. They are a huge avenue into bringing more business in. Most women learn about gaming from guys. Be respectful.

9. Your gonna have to discount stuff close to online. If your distributor is giving you a bad deal. Drop em. you may have to lower your profit, but you can make it up elsewhere. This is what Amazon does. Heck buy a bunch off Amazon. Heck the makers do this to you guys. They sell a ton to AMAZON at way cheap prices and make up the losses inflating the price to Stores like you. You have to manage your inventory way better. How many Rifts books do you REALLY need? you can always order more. Alot of Distributors take advantage of retailers. WHY? Cause they need to make money off of YOU the Retailer. They dont care about the store. You have to be more aggresive these days.

Hope that gives you some insight from a person who has gone to over a hundred game stores in my life. Out of all of them I still go to one. And they are still in business today. (over 15 years).


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## Aria Silverhands (Jun 30, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Don't tell me to read a little. It's an insult. Do we have to trot out and compare degrees now? Mine are probably bigger than yours, so don't go there.
> 
> Second, let me make sure I'm perfectly clear on what you and Aria think should be done: you think that the government should effectively enforce a minimum price on gaming products by outlawing discounts which are too favorable to the consumer? That is in fact what you are suggesting, right?



I'm all for a minimum discount for online retail and big businesses.  It's ridiculous how much they hurt the small businesses.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 30, 2008)

> An online retailer ought to be allowed to sell 4E gift sets for $1 if they want.




and



> They should not be able to sell the gift set for $1. Undercutting is like price gouging, just on a different end of the scale. Instead of affecting the customer, it affects small businesses who can't afford to provide the same discounts.




While I firmly believe that free market economics is generally the way to go,  it has long been a point of both law and ethics that if the free market is unfettered in some ways, you can get some nasty and undesirable results (like monopolies or monopsonies).

Whether a retailer- ANY retailer- should be able to sell the gift set for $1 depends upon

1) the length of the sale; 

2) the amount of product to be sold; and

3) whether said sale meets the conditions for being "Predatory"





> 4. Get rid of the Yu-GI_OH crowd. Teens have nowhere to hang out in this day and age, but unfortunately they dont pay. They just want a place to hang. They curse, are loud and are bad for business. I find alot of stores who need revenue start running tournaments for certain games and the rowdy bunch just takes over. I may be a old fuddy dud (36) but when a store I liked put in a Dance Dance revolution game and had it on during MTG tournies..... YEAH,I aint coming back. Family gamers will be more loyal, spend more money and easier to deal with. Have a tournament once and awhile.




It is an unfortunate fact of life that Generation Y (those born between 1980 and 1994) already control more wealth (directly or indirectly) than Generation X..._and they don't even have all of their members in the work force yet._

You may not like them, but they're the key to the long term success of business.

The retailer's key is to get them in the store but don't let them _disrupt_ it.  That may involve talking to parents or even a few select bannings.


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## Mark (Jun 30, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> It is an unfortunate fact of life that Generation Y (those born between 1980 and 1994) already control more wealth (directly or indirectly) than Generation X..._and they don't even have all of their members in the work force yet._





Where's that little tidbit from?


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## blindrage (Jun 30, 2008)

My FLGS just closed Saturday.  Amazon.com and other online stores helped closed him.  Now I'm stuck with buying my books online or wait till Gen Con for my stuff. Sigh.


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## Mark (Jun 30, 2008)

blindrage said:


> My FLGS just closed Saturday.  Amazon.com and other online stores helped closed him.  Now I'm stuck with buying my books online or wait till Gen Con for my stuff. Sigh.





Indy only had one LGS?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 30, 2008)

> > It is an unfortunate fact of life that Generation Y (those born between 1980 and 1994) already control more wealth (directly or indirectly) than Generation X...and they don't even have all of their members in the work force yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Multiple articles and marketing publications I read while getting my MBA 2003-2005.

None of which I have on hand, unfortunately.

The most recent thing I could find online were these:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/advertising/2006-10-11-retail-teens-usat_x.htm
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/NEWS/allnewsbydate.asp?NewsID=835
http://promomagazine.com/research/marketing_generation_spending_above/

By this point, its probably such a non-controversial issue that you might not find any current data to the contrary.

Besides the above, most of what I find online about Gen Y finances deals with their massive credit card debt and generally poor savings habits.


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## blindrage (Jun 30, 2008)

Mark said:


> Indy only had one LGS?





The one on the Northside: Boardroom Games just closed.  I have to drive to the Westside now for stuff like Pazio games now because no other store I know but the Boardroom sold them.


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## Mark (Jun 30, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> By this point, its probably such a non-controversial issue that you might not find any current data to the contrary.
> 
> Besides the above, most of what I find online about Gen Y finances deals with their massive credit card debt and generally poor savings habits.





Thank goodness us 1962ers fall into the Baby Boomer category.


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## Mark (Jun 30, 2008)

blindrage said:


> The one on the Northside: Boardroom Games just closed.  I have to drive to the Westside now for stuff like Pazio games now because no other store I know but the Boardroom sold them.






Paizo needs to expand its brick and mortar coverage (and make sure the b&m stores aren't getting stuff up to a month later than Paizo sells it through their website) if they want to truly support gamers through the b&m locations.


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## Felix (Jun 30, 2008)

I would love to sit around a table drinking coffee and bandying economic jargon about predatory pricing, price floors, and negative externalities of free markets. But is ENWorld really the place for it?

Despite your scoffing, Aria, gamersgambit has an advantage relative to Amazon when it comes to customer service. Customers can see gg; customers can talk directly to gg; customers can ask any question about any product in the store and get an immediate answer; customers can buy a soda from gg; customers can play in gg's game if he runs one. All of those things can help create a real relationship between gg and the customer, something that one-click-shopping cannot do.

That's the arena were he can compete. He establishes relationships and generates "brand loyalty" and he can be successful.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 30, 2008)

Caliban said:


> FYI, there are good game stores that aren't located in malls.
> 
> I frequent 3 different game stores across the Valley that support D&D by providing gaming space and hosting RPGA events.
> 
> ...




Transportation is an issue for me (I don't have have any wheels of my own and public transportaion is a joke during the summer anyway). 

With the passing of my father, finding a new group and getting together on a regular basis is problematic as well. I do offer gas money to alleviate the strain of someone going out of their way to help me out and more often than not will treat them to a meal during the gaming break.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 30, 2008)

But the situation you describe is not one of choice, but one of relative impossibility.

For people in that kind of situation, I wouldn't dream of criticizing their choice to prefer online retail shopping over virtually doing without.

In my early years as a gamer, I lived in Manhattan, KS.  There were a few D&D and Traveller products available at the book store, but the supply of new material was exhausted within a month or so of shopping.

To find new material, I had to go to Lawrence, Topeka, Wichita or Kansas City- things I could only do once every month or two.  Or four.

Thank goodness for the internet!


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## pg13 (Jun 30, 2008)

Felix said:


> Despite your scoffing, Aria, gamersgambit has an advantage relative to Amazon when it comes to customer service. Customers can see gg; customers can talk directly to gg; customers can ask any question about any product in the store and get an immediate answer; customers can buy a soda from gg; customers can play in gg's game if he runs one. All of those things can help create a real relationship between gg and the customer, something that one-click-shopping cannot do.
> 
> That's the arena were he can compete. He establishes relationships and generates "brand loyalty" and he can be successful.




That's how it's supposed to work, yes.

I agree with you...except, here's where gg finds himself on the losing end of the trend =  gg will have to spend far more money fighting harder for fewer and fewer sales of the impossibly broad range of products that gg would have to have pay to have available at any given moment in order to take advantage of the specialized nature of service that is the main competitive advantage for the FLGS.  

The high-volume items will be sold by the low overhead, limitless storage and shelf-life, internet convenient, on-line discounter.  And nothing, other than the temporary shift of convenience, stops someone from coming to the FLGS for the knowledge and the hands-on inspection and then choosing to go home and buy it on-line at the best available price.

That's the scary truth of it...and until a new business model is found, the best that the FLGS can hope for is to hold on until the next trend appears...or until it can no longer hold on.

Been there, done that.
pg--seattle

PS--The US music industry belatedly recognized the value of the independent retailers and the struggle they faced against the Big Box discount stores and they self-imposed restrictions known as "Minimum Advertisable Prices."  Basically, it restricted co-op advertising (ads that are partially paid for by the record labels in partnership with a retailer, a major source of advertising budgets) to those retailers who agreed not to advertise certain products for less than pre-arranged minimums.  You could be Best Buy and still sell the new Coldplay for $5 less than most stores could buy it wholesale--but you couldn't use the record labels money to advertise that...  And it helped.  Until Congress struck the practice down as being unfair to consumers (and consumers were convinced by the media coverage of this action that they'd won a great victory against the high cost of cds--but all they did was quicken the demise of their friendly local record store...)

There's not going to be anyone stepping in and telling Amazon.com that they can't sell you what you want for the best price they can.  Independent retails can't hold their breath and wait to be rescued--they have to simply do what they can to offer something that people will choose to buy from them...and hope that'll be enough.

Use your lucky dice!


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## Korgoth (Jun 30, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:


> I'm all for a minimum discount for online retail and big businesses.  It's ridiculous how much they hurt the small businesses.




Great. So the vaunted LGS can only survive if I'm deprived of fiscal liberty.

I am going to become the anti-LGS Lech Walesa.  Solidarnosc!


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## Corjay (Jun 30, 2008)

More power too ya.


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## pogminky (Jun 30, 2008)

As many have already mentioned.... the only way for FLGSs to really compete is to become a service industry not retail.  Somewhere to go and play, talk, eat & drink, meet likeminded people etc. - and maybe, maybe - buy some stuff.

Trouble is, gamers are not the most socially adventerous of people - nor are they in large numbers - and they can enjoy there hobby for free in their own home rather than pay to enjoy it at a store.  

Answer?  Don't know - maybe offer a play experience that can't be had in a home: interesting decor (the fantasy room, the horror section etc. for diff games)
controllable mood lighting and music
pro-quality dice/DM screens/minis and mats for hire
etc.

In the end though, I think that time is running out on FLGSs and TTs.  I wonder what the hobby will be like in 10 years, or twenty years?


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## PetriWessman (Jun 30, 2008)

Well, I usually try to support our FLGS (which is very "F", and excellent in many ways). However, it's not always economically feasible.

As the most blatant example, take 4e. The FLGS is selling the set at a price of 105 euros (that's about $160, at current rates). Amazon has it at $63, and shipping here to Finland is about $8, so it's about $70.

So that's $160 vs $70 (!). It's a complete no-brainer. There's no way I'm paying over double price, no matter how much I like the shop. Amazon wins.

Usually the difference isn't that extreme, and in those cases I buy locally. But whenever I start getting 50% or more off by getting it from Amazon (including shipping costs in calculations), that's where I go. I'm sorry for the store owners out there, but that's the bottom line.


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## jdrakeh (Jun 30, 2008)

Actually, I know several game stores that make a killing in retail (or at least turn enough profit to stay open for decades at a time). The primary difference that I see between these stores and failed game stores is stock diversity. Specifically, the long-standing stores that I know of cater to _several_ hobbies (e.g., scale model building, card collectors, boardgamers, roleplayers, wargamers, etc). The 'gone in short' order stores seem to fixate on one or two tiny niche demographics to the exclusion of all others. 

Then there are certain game stores that explore outre realms of the bizarre in order to keep their doors open. . .

Some friends and I were driving through Liberal, KS back in 2001 on our way to California and decided to check out the FLGS to take a break from driving. Well, turns out that the FLGS was a game/porno store. Seriously. They had the Forgotten Realms product on the shelf right next to the. . . bad stuff. I bought some TWERPS books. My friend bought some. . . really bad stuff. It was the most surreal RPG shopping experience of my life.


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## Corjay (Jun 30, 2008)

The more successful of the two FLGS in my area is VERY diverse in similar ways. They have art books, manga books, comics and graphic novels, board games, huge variety of RPG's, huge variety of TCG's, minis games, walls of peuter miniatures, a table of previously owned or outdated materials, and lots of space for gaming smack dab in middle of the store with product on all sides in a space you wouldn't normally look at and say "sure, we can do that". Their use of space is phenomenal. 70% of their product lines the walls.


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## JDJblatherings (Jun 30, 2008)

Mark said:


> Thank goodness us 1962ers fall into the Baby Boomer category.





Gen Y doesn't control more wealth...they spend more money.  Big difference there.

In the U.S. 35 - 54 earned over 2400 Billion Dollars in 2005, under 35 earned under 1400 Billion Dollars.    In that same year 70%+ of 34-54 were home owners, under 35 had about 45% home owners.


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## Heselbine (Jun 30, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> Support your LGS.




As a previous poster said, the onus is on retailers to provide added-value services. If you don't, why shouldn't I buy from Amazon?

I speak as one who DOES support their FLGS because it

a) Provides gaming space
b) Runs special events
c) Is run by people who can talk knowledgeably about D&D
d) Give me free stuff every now and then
e) Painted a special figure for me for free once when I had a really important game coming up

So I say: support your LGS if it deserves it.


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## Shazman (Jun 30, 2008)

Unfortunately, the reality is that books are getting increasingly expensive and gas is ridiculous.  The only way I can buy anything anymore is to get it at the huge discount online retailers offer.  I simply can't justify going out of my way to use up a lot of my free time and expensive gas getting to my LGS and paying 15 to 20 dollars more for the same book I can get delivered to my door at a fraction of the price.  That's just the way things are with the outrageous price jumps and lack of appropriate cost of living raises most Americans are dealing with right now.


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## Calico_Jack73 (Jun 30, 2008)

One of the problems I have with my FLGS:

They certainly are friendly and have a nice, big gaming area and they sponsor events.  The problem is that all of their books are shrink wrapped.  I consider myself a bit of a impulse buyer.  I can pick up a book, thumb through it and within 5 minutes I know if I am going to buy it.  Obviously I can't do that at the FLGS.  I CAN go to my local Borders which has a decently stocked gaming selection, flip through any book I like, and with my weekly coupon I get e-mailed to me sail out of the store with a new book that I paid less for than I would have at the gaming store.

If you want impulse buyer money, DON'T SHRINK WRAP YOUR BOOKS!!!



pogminky said:


> Answer?  Don't know - maybe offer a play experience that can't be had in a home: interesting decor (the fantasy room, the horror section etc. for diff games)
> controllable mood lighting and music
> pro-quality dice/DM screens/minis and mats for hire
> etc.




I like this!  When I lived in Dallas in the early 90's there was a Virtual World center that I loved to go to.  I certainly loved playing the games but I also like to just go there and hang out.  They had a non-alcoholic bar where you could buy all sorts of coffees and sodas with different syrups mixed in (I liked the Martian Ale best of all).  The place was also laid out like a Victorian era explorer's club with the heads of alien creatures mounted on the wall and artifacts from other planets for decoration.  Comfortable, overstuffed highbacked chairs were arranged so you could just hang out and chat with the other visitors.  If my FLGS did something like that I'd be there gaming in the store every single week.


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## Felix (Jun 30, 2008)

pg13 said:
			
		

> I agree with you...except, here's where gg finds himself on the losing end of the trend = gg will have to spend far more money fighting harder for fewer and fewer sales of the impossibly broad range of products that gg would have to have pay to have available at any given moment in order to take advantage of the specialized nature of service that is the main competitive advantage for the FLGS.



About a centimeter of the middle finger of my left hand was cut off in a door years ago. I have since picked up playing the violin. I told my beginner violin teacher that I was having a hard time reaching the G string on the far side of the neck, which a long middle finger would reach easily. Her response?

"Aww, is it hard? Nobody cares: they only care about the music." I laughed, tried harder, and never mentioned it again.

It's hard for _everyone_ that has their own business, and I have trouble supporting businesses that can't support themselves. gamersgambit and other LGS's will have to work darned hard, and it may be that their business model can't survive. But if he wants to survive, he'll have his best shot at doing so with service, since he can't beat online economies of scale; he has about as much right to restrict how much other people charge for their goods as I do restricting how well other people play the violin.


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## Belen (Jun 30, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> Sorry - as cold as it sounds, I don't need an LGS.
> 
> The internet has made such a place irrelevant to me.
> 
> LGS product is overpriced and the selection can't compare to online vendors.




Sure.  The second that non-online vendors die, we will see Amazon charge full sticker price.  It is called predatory pricing for a reason.


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## Belen (Jun 30, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:


> Anyone know a FLGS, y'know the Games-only, table-space kind that predates MtG and the upsurge in Warhammer?
> 
> I know lots of gaming-friendly comics and hobby shops... and johnny-com-lately FLGS's




www.allfunngames.com

They have a huge game space and great hours M-Thursday 10-10, Fri-Sat 10am-12am, Sunday, 12-6.

They expanded their store to carry board games and puzzles though, but they are a spectacular store.


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## delericho (Jun 30, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> Think of them as Wal-Mart, only worse.  Buying your stuff at WalMart certainly saves you money, and may put local retailers out of business but they provide very little other than product (and tax base for your community, but few people apparently care about that).




Indeed. I made sure to purchase my 4e core rulebooks from the FLGS, and buy almost all of my gaming supplies there (I get Pathfinder via subscription, and get a couple of hard-to-find items elsewhere as required).

However....



gamersgambit said:


> So I put it to you:  Support your LGS.




I'm sorry, but I can't support this as a blanket statement. I support my LGS because I have an _excellent_ LGS where I have been shopping for years (indeed, I got my Red Box Basic Set at that same store 20 years ago). But excellent LGS are too few and far between. And an LGS that misses out the 'F' is probably not worth saving.


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## RabidBob (Jun 30, 2008)

Belen said:


> Sure.  The second that non-online vendors die, we will see Amazon charge full sticker price.  It is called predatory pricing for a reason.




Not necessarily.  In the UK at least Amazon have a lot of competition.  Heck, half the stuff I buy off Amazon I buy not from Amazon but from someone using their storefront.  We also have Play.com for movies, computer games and who also have started stocking books at a competitive rate.  My "FLGS" (which is not so friendly, have no gaming space at all, but have a very nice owner) has been in business since before I moved to the UK.  However, LGS generally are a dying breed, off the top of my head I only know of three dedicated gaming stores in the London metropolitan area (Games Workshop stores don't count).  

Lots of great points in this thread.  I'd like to add my 2cp for the "clean and respectable" part of the LGS offering.  I think also that where the LGS can win 100% of the time is in service.  My LGS offer a mail order service and when I recently had a problem with an item I bought through the post they replaced it with out any hassle at all; if I'd bought from Amazon I'd have no end of problems.  Hire friendly staff, make sure they don't sit there playing WoW or browsing 4chan when there are customers in the shop.  Maintain order; gamers can be, uh, "exuberant" at times and sometimes that can be inappropriate and this'll put potential customers off.  Make your store a place people *want* to be and they'll be there and be spending money they otherwise would not have.  Ensure that your store is easy to locate, not just in physical terms but if someone was new to the area they'd find you easily via search engine, phone book, whatever.


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## Tarek (Jun 30, 2008)

Calico_Jack, all you have to do is go to the employee working at the register and ask to crack the shrinkwrap. They'll happily allow you to.

The reason for the shrinkwrap is to keep the books looking nice despite the number of people handling it, and to provide a place for the price stickers to go that will not mar the book's appearance after you take it home.


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## Wednesday Boy (Jun 30, 2008)

Rhianni32 said:


> Not many go down to a lgs looking for a rpg game to play these days. But a pick up game of Magic and making friends that can expand out into RPGs does happen more often.




I agree entirely.  The only LGS (the Game Parlour in Reston-ish, VA) that any of my friends frequent does a great job hosting pick up CCGs and war games (and tournaments of each).  That seems to be the main impetus to get them excited about going to the store.


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## John Lynch (Jun 30, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> I really appreciate those, and perhaps I should've titled this post: what can I, as an FLGS, do to retain/grasp your business from Amazon and Barnes and Noble?



First of all, and I mean this in a constructive way, your website sucks. Here's why:
* Header is hard to read, I thought it was because it was being stretched, but no, that image was designed to look like that. Why?
* Your homepage is too busy with very little delineation between areas. Make a decision, is the homepage there to display new products or to give people news? Because it shouldn't be for both as it just comes out as a mess.
* Those buttons are clumsy and aren't impressing anyone. If you must have them, but some padding between the button and the cell wall.
* Not all of your links work. Gambitcon '08 to Wings of War Fridays don't work. If you're going to code this yourself you need to test it better.
* On your calendar I see entries for lots of things, but none for D&D. This isn't exactly going to attract me to your store. Also on the events page you've got D&D listed last. If the D&D part of your business is failing, you need to give it more of a push, and putting it at the bottom of the page isn't going to achieve that.
* Put in a Pbp section on your forum. Include a sticky to such resources as the d20srd. I cut my teeth on that and I eagerly awaited 4e so I could get the books.
* Be more personable. I don't know if it would be a good idea to say why you're closing on Mondays, but this aint friendly. A "Unfortunately we'll be closed on mondays starting June 2nd" would be better then "That is all" 
* Put the "Where Everybody Knows Your Name" section just below Gambitcon on the forum. When I load that forum I'm not seeing an area to talk about D&D. I'm seeing Forum Rules and General Discussion with a Chatter section
* Consolidate your sections on the forum. There isn't a lot of discussion at the moment and you DON'T want a forum that looks dead. Instead have "Cards", "Dungeons and Dragons", "Comics", "Video Games" (include MMOs here), "Warhammer Fantasy/40K/Blood Bowl", "Heroclix, Haloclix & Horrorclix", "Other Games" That's halved it.



gamersgambit said:


> Absolutely. We offer wireless internet now for a yearly fee



I saw nothing about this on your website.

Having said all that, you've got some pretty good ideas. I particularly like the calendar (although it needs more D&D stuff) and forums. Although if you aren't going to get the Online Store put up by the end of July, include prices next to the RPG products. If you're prices truly are comparable to Amazon (I find $5 difference comparable) then push this fact forward as much as you can.

is simply silly to me. I have no ties to you, and you say if I don't have ties with you I'm somehow part of a problem (otherwise why would people care if you die) is offensive.



gamersgambit said:


> The problem is that they need customers (of RPGs) to serve, or they'll stop supporting RPGs.



Well let's look at what you've done to push forward your store to the D&D crowd. You said







gamersgambit said:


> So I put it to you: Support your LGS. It's the birthplace of the next generation of gamers, unless you really WANT 5.0 and 6.0 to become *completely* focused on duplicating MMORPGS because the only market left becomes people who play online.



which as someone who came into D&D without ever entering an LGS, is simply silly. Your saying that if FLGS's die out (or simply migrate away from gaming) that people like me will be all that's left for WotC to cater to and this is a bad thing. Wow, I'm going to jump right over to your store! You need to put yourself forward as a worthwhile member of the D&D community, which isn't done by telling people you're a worthwhile member of the community. How could you do that? Well I don't see you holding any RPGA events. That would be a start. I'm hoping an FLGS here in Australia might eventually hold one so I could check it out, see what the store's atmosphere is like.



gamersgambit said:


> Perhaps I am also unique in being a gaming store that keeps a large variety of out-of-print and non-D&D/White Wolf RPG materials in store, as well. I should hope not, but that may be the case.



I'm not going to drive all the way to your store just to see what out of print books you have. You're going to have to get me that information through your website somehow.



Dannyalcatraz said:


> or your store has a "No outside food & drinks" policy.



I hate these policies and refuse to eat anything in places that have them (unless they're a restaurant, corner store, etc and their business is to sell food rather then to sell gaming material). So if you have one, I'm going to refuse to eat any of your stuff and after 3 hours I'm going to be hungry so I won't return.



Aria Silverhands said:


> I'm all for a minimum discount for online retail and big businesses. It's ridiculous how much they hurt the small businesses.



Why not just have the government give them money then? That's effectively what you're asking for.



Belen said:


> Sure. The second that non-online vendors die, we will see Amazon charge full sticker price. It is called predatory pricing for a reason.



Not true, because there will be multiple online vendors and so there will still be competition.


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## subbob (Jun 30, 2008)

*Supporting non-local Gaming Stores*

Whenever I'm traveling (business or pleasure) I look for gaming stores. Time permitting, I'll visit them and purchase an item or two. Usually the owner is present and I specifically thank them for continuing to provide the local area service.  I know my paltry $20-30 purchase does not make the difference in whether they succeed or not, but it's my small contribution to them for striving to make it work.

As a side benefit, this allows me to see some great game store business models.  

I was visiting family up near Omaha, Nebraska and ran across the Ground Zero store in Bellevue.

The owner there has many of the features others have suggested in this thread.   What impressed me the most was his mechanism for supporting gamers with snacks and drinks.

He had several coolers of sodas, energy drinks, water, etc.  and a wide variety of snacks.

As I was talking to him, one of his regulars came up, grabbed a coke from the cooler and nodded towards the owner.  The owner turned around, put a tally mark down next to the guy's name and continued his conversation with me.

He explained that he runs a tab for each of his customer's and they close it out with him  (either time based or when it gets to $20, etc).   That saves him doing a register transaction every time they get something. Also he pointed out that many of his customers do not always carry cash, so it provides them some convenience as well.

This seems like such a small thing - but I was very impressed.  His prices were also very reasonable.  It was not the "quick stop" $1.39 coke and 75 cent candy bar situation.  I think the drinks were 50 or 75 cents and the other snacks priced equivalently.


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## redcard (Jun 30, 2008)

I've seen the argument made before that if we don't support LGS's, they'll die.

But, on the flip side, I think the LGSs have been a bit lax in how they handle things.  I have two LGS's here.  One is VERY clean, contains current stuff, with a dress code on the employees.  They have no gaming room.

The other is somewhat to very dirty, the owner is a wonderful guy but runs the shop by himself, it's got a variety of people who come in and play, but for the most part are not the type of gamers I search for.

The last FIVE game groups I've been in have been made DESPITE the store's presence, not because of it.  Let me explain.  You can offer drinks, you can offer products, you can offer a lot.. but if you're not a fun place to play, then I can't do it.  

Here's what I consider mandatory for me to consider playing at your place.

FIRST.  CHARGE for your game space.  Please, god, charge.  Because that'll take care of a lot of the rabble.    I'm tired of trying to find space to run a game at a store that has massive mini collections set up all the time, or kids playing Pokemon.  This first come first serve crap has got to go.

SECOND.  In line with charging, open up SCHEDULES.  Put your registration and payment system for the tables on line.  Make it so it can be searched online.   

THIRD.  Make it so you can keep a list of gamers online .  This has three advantages.   FIrst, it allows players to set up games in their houses.  Second, it allows you access to the internal shopping lists of these gamers.   Third, it allows you to market new products to those players based on what they like.

FOURTH.  Institute a "no babysitting" policy.  I am freaking TIRED of every parent in this burg dumping their kids off at the game store in the middle of my RPG games.   NOTHING is more annoying than a kid who is unsupervised running around the store.  Enough of the "these kids are the future" crap.  You won't HAVE a future if everyone gets tired of your store turning into the local daycare.  PLUS..  I know of an instance where it turned VERY dangerous for a kid.

Finally, please make your stores APPEAR to be a safe place to play.  That means stop hiring creepy outcast teenagers with seventeen piercings.  Stop dressing like slobs.  Take a bath every once in a while.  

So no.. we don't "owe" anyone anything.  Give us the products and services we want, or we'll find some other place to get it.


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## romp (Jun 30, 2008)

pogminky said:


> As many have already mentioned.... the only way for FLGSs to really compete is to become a service industry not retail.  Somewhere to go and play, talk, eat & drink, meet likeminded people etc. - and maybe, maybe - buy some stuff.






I think I am going to open a game shop with a pizza oven/deli counter in the back, game tables out front, and a computer for ordering RPGs online in the middle


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## TheWinslow (Jun 30, 2008)

The Cradle of Gaming?

The exact same argument is made by the guy who runs one eyed jacques in Richmond, largely as excuse for his lack of innovation and testicular fortitude. This is not to say you suffer from either, but have you considered that perhaps letting an unprofitable product line fail is in everyone's best interests?

GG, you are a man first, a businessman second, and a gamer last of all, do what you need to do to provide for yourself and your dependants. And if D&D falls on the wrong side of bottom line, let it. 

If your customers cared about D&D, they'd make it worth your while and that's all there is to it. Plus, you can always do special orders and preorders for your regulars if they are inclined.


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## Korgoth (Jun 30, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> Some friends and I were driving through Liberal, KS back in 2001 on our way to California and decided to check out the FLGS to take a break from driving. Well, turns out that the FLGS was a game/porno store. Seriously. They had the Forgotten Realms product on the shelf right next to the. . . bad stuff. I bought some TWERPS books. My friend bought some. . . really bad stuff. It was the most surreal RPG shopping experience of my life.






Well, now I don't have to feel bad about lampooning their town's name... but wow.  That's just... oy.


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## DaveMage (Jun 30, 2008)

Belen said:


> Sure.  The second that non-online vendors die, we will see Amazon charge full sticker price.




No way.  

Competition between amazon, bn.com, buy.com, and other online vendors will keep it where it is.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 30, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> No way.
> 
> Competition between amazon, bn.com, buy.com, and other online vendors will keep it where it is.




Exactly.  Just like Shell, Unico, and other gasoline vendors keep prices down due to competition.

And, as far as the death of LGS hurting the hobby, I imagine that the loss of LGS will be felt no more than the loss of independent book stores or music stores in terms of what "voices" are presented, or how strongly they are presented.  There is absolutely no difference between the content of a Barnes & Nobles and a small, independent book store.  And, obviously, no indy band has ever gotten more rack space or "play time" in an independent music store than it has at a giant chain.


RC


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## gamersgambit (Jun 30, 2008)

*That's Another Long Post You've Gotten Us Into*

Another long post...

Felix sez:



> Oh, of course. As a gamer with a MA Econ (since we're flashing creds ) I'm a huge fan of economies of scale and bulk discounts. That's one of the reasons I dislike the pejorative tone gamersgambit took with the large retailers.




JoeGKushner sez...


> How does that arguement work for Wallmart that does have thousands of storefronts and people?





I am not an MA anything, first of all. 

Secondly, the fact is that for all the blather about helping out small business and capital gains tax and investment and the whole nine yards you'll hear from fiscal conservatives and libertarians alike, when small business gets replaced by large conglomerates, you wind up with a shortage of options and a seriously underemployed population.  Town main streets become wastelands, anyone who wants to venture out of the corporate model of working for someone else winds up with limited options, fewer jobs are created for the young, tax rates decline in general for local communities as small businesses go out of business, which leads to dead communities.  What we're seeing the start of is the phenomenon of mining towns when the mine runs dry or one-industry-towns when the logging plant/factory/military base moves overseas or goes out of business, only on a much broader scale.

Thirdly, Amazon has run at a deficit for years.  As of September 2007, their accumulated deficit stood at U.S.$1.58 billion.  They're also pretty anti-union in their practices.

Fourthly, WalMart...well, I don't have to talk about WalMart.  Lots more websites than this board can tell you why they stink on ice.

Korgoth


> Second, let me make sure I'm perfectly clear on what you and Aria think should be done: you think that the government should effectively enforce a minimum price on gaming products by outlawing discounts which are too favorable to the consumer? That is in fact what you are suggesting, right?




Check out the Lang Law (France) and similar fixed book price laws in Europe, and analysis thereof.  

The conclusion of all this is, if you have a lot of money, and are willing to take a huge loss, you can do loss leaders until such time as you drive competition out of the market, then raise your prices and/or have so much volume sales that you can make up for your crappy margin with numbers.  Yet the illusion of "price savings" to the consumer winds up being false because the economic impact on job shrinkage, tax base, underemployed and unemployed workers, strong, unified and powerful political lobbys defending your effective monopoly, and other aspects wind up costing the consumer much more in "invisible costs".

DaveMage sez...


> The problem is (as I understand it) that the distribution system is based on markup %, rather than a flat rate/book. The model is fine when you're selling $5 books. Few people may mind paying an extra $1.00 (on that $5 book) to shop locally. However, many people *do* mind paying an extra $14 to buy locally (as is the case with the 4E PHB: $34.99 in the store and $20 and change at amazon). With 3 core books, that's an extra $42. Way too much to justify "buying local" IMO.
> 
> The distribution model is broken on pricey RPGs. Don't blame amazon for eliminating costly overhead and most of the potential of the five-finger discount. LGS will have to adapt, find a new model, or close.




Corjay comments...


> If the LGS is charging full price for a product then there's something wrong. Either they're gouging you or they're not taking advantage of specialty business practices. I never pay full price at either of the FLGS in my area.




This idea (that we're gouging you) is somewhat flawed.  As it is, the best margin I get from anyone is 50% of cover price before shipping.  There are some products I can afford to offer at a discount and/or absolutely HAVE to, but that 50% margin is what keeps me afloat...and that 50% margin is vanishingly rare (most products are sold to me at a 35-45% margin).  The more I discount, the less I make; the less money I have for rent, utilities, employees, etcetera etcetera.  Charging cover price for a book isn't "gouging" people.  

It's not like this is some sort of market where we can make up prices for things--the prices are all fixed elsewhere.  As it is, a box of Magic cards /should/ retail, at full price, for $144 and a single pack for $4 (before taxes).  With tournaments offering 5 packs for $15, I take a loss on the individual packs and if I tried to sell a Magic box for $144 people would laugh at me.

Which isn't to say I don't offer any discounts--I do offer quite a few, and run sales a lot, on different items in the store.  I play a precariously balanced game between keeping inventory thin and providing depth and breadth of product/product lines.  

Corjay sez...


> This is actually quite a brilliant solution. Good thinking. How do you track it? Punch cards? Customer keeps their receipts? Account Book? Database? (Customer keeps receipts is the best way to turn it into pure profit.)




Right now, we're doing it in QuickBooks as a credit to the customer's account in the computer.  This places recordkeeping in our hands, which as has been mentioned deprives us of the ability to place the onus on the customer to keep track (and thus means that we can't make pure profit when the customer doesn't bring in their piece of paper/card/receipt/what-have-you).  I'm not a big fan of that sort of business dealing; hampered by a strong sense of ethics.  That may change as time goes on...

j drakeh sez...


> Also, they shrewdly discounted all third-party D&D 3x material by 30% within days of D&D 4e being announced, ensuring that they still made a roughly 20% profit on those items while moving inventory that would otherwise be collecting dust with the arrival of the new edition. The guy that runs the store really knows the ins and outs of retail, and it shows.




Yeah, we bumped ours down to a 35% sale...for obvious numerical reasons. 

Ian Argent


> Any chance you carry Shadowrun?




We do, actually.  I'm not at work right now, so I don't know what we have in stock, but I try to keep up to date (I'm a long-time fan and GM of Shadowrun, but just because I want to buy something doesn't mean there's demand enough for me to keep old restocks in stock).  Email gamersgambit@gmail.com with whatever you need, if I don't have it in stock I can get it in 1 business day.

Philotomy sez...



> Amusingly, the whole reason we went to the FLGS was this thread. I mentioned it to my wife, and she said, "Hey, we should go to our game store..."




I want to say "My work is done here." 

I have taken to heart the suggestions on this board; and will be proceeding to implement quite a few of them (and give them to my co-owner who also owns another store--the Dragon's Den in Poughkeepsie, NY).  

I'd like to add this about the "you have to provide better services" mantra.  I am eager to provide as many services as I possibly can and can afford.  However...

Storyteller01 sez...



> This is really not true. I'm an employee of my FLGS, and having a gaming area does not bring in customers. Discounting our product lower than the competition does. We regularly have customers come to us for a product, then go back to another place for the tables. Even though the other place was selling said product.
> 
> Amazon sold the core books at over 50% off of retail, blatantly doing so before official release dates. In an industry where those who sell first get the business, this kills the LGS. This is made worse when people in our store for conversation or atmosphere, not buying anything moind you, tell customers 'dude, you can get that at (kaza, amazon, etc) cheaper'. Or worse yet, 'I have a copy on PDF. Give me your e-mail and I'll send you a copy'. This among other things is causing us to rethink selling rpgs. We make nearly 10 times as much with other games.




What he said is true, and the initial impetus for my post.  Frankly, I have *already* captured the dollar of the sort of people who want to play in my gaming space (there are few who come to my store to play AND buy things elsewhere; and of those few, I've been drawing them into the fold with the $5-play-fee-goes-to-store-credit model).  

I give the best service I can.  I don't expect people who have never played in a gaming store & have no relation to gaming stores whatsoever to suddenly start shopping in an FLGS. As nice as that might be, I'm well aware that the only thing that'll do that is service & advertising, not posting on enworld (although that too is a form of advertising). There's no reason for them to do so.

 The impetus for this post was primarily to convince those of you who *USED* to shop at FLGSes and were lured away by online and big-box pricing to remember where the game community that fostered you came from, and to support them so that the next generation of gamers like you can have the same experience.


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## JDJblatherings (Jun 30, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> I imagine that the loss of LGS will be felt no more than the loss of independent book stores or music stores in terms of what "voices" are presented, or how strongly they are presented.  There is absolutely no difference between the content of a Barnes & Nobles and a small, independent book store.




going for sarcasm here?  I still miss a bookstiore that closed about 15 years ago. The owners retired, they were doing well they simply wanted to move to the country watch the grass grow and die.    They had a great used book section (almost 1/2 the store) that they kept moving by having sales and a huge selection of old magazines as well that also kept moving thanks to sales, it was always a waiting game...hmm I can get this now for $2.00 but if i wait 3 months It'll be just $1.00.   Never saw that at a Barnes & Nobles or Borders.


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## withak (Jun 30, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> Some friends and I were driving through Liberal, KS back in 2001 on our way to California and decided to check out the FLGS to take a break from driving. Well, turns out that the FLGS was a game/porno store. Seriously. They had the Forgotten Realms product on the shelf right next to the. . . bad stuff. I bought some TWERPS books. My friend bought some. . . really bad stuff. It was the most surreal RPG shopping experience of my life.



This is more common than you might think.

Before they went out of business, at least three Shinders (a Twin Cities, MN chain) had a "back room" full of interesting materials. Granted, it didn't directly share shelf space with RPGs, comics, or trading cards, and you needed to be able to prove you were 18+ to go back there, but it was there, and it was more than a little bit creepy. Certainly not Friendly.

So, yeah, I didn't have an FLGS growing up. I had a CLG&PS. (And I suppose it wasn't all that L, either, being a half-hour's drive away.)


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## Corjay (Jun 30, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> Exactly.  Just like Shell, Unico, and other gasoline vendors keep prices down due to competition.
> 
> And, as far as the death of LGS hurting the hobby, I imagine that the loss of LGS will be felt no more than the loss of independent book stores or music stores in terms of what "voices" are presented, or how strongly they are presented.  There is absolutely no difference between the content of a Barnes & Nobles and a small, independent book store.  And, obviously, no indy band has ever gotten more rack space or "play time" in an independent music store than it has at a giant chain.
> 
> ...



On the contrary. Due to circumstances beyond my own control, I have no means of purchasing anything online, and my local Barnes & Noble and Borders books carry very limited roleplaying materials at FULL PRICE (For instance, B&N only has the 4e DMG along with Exalted and a few other products I have no interest in). Though I might be able to get a club card as long as they don't check my credit. But I would definitely feel it badly.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 30, 2008)

JDJblatherings said:


> going for sarcasm here?





Sure am.

We lost out when independent book sellers and independent record stores began to close their doors.  We lost out big time.

We have seen, repeatedly, the business model of "lower prices until small vendors are out of business, then raise them".

We seem unable to learn from the experience.

RC


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## Mallus (Jun 30, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> We have seen, repeatedly, the business model of "lower prices until small vendors are out of business, then raise them".
> RC



Except, of course, in the businesses where that doesn't happen.


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## Mercule (Jun 30, 2008)

romp said:


> I think I am going to open a game shop with a pizza oven/deli counter in the back, game tables out front, and a computer for ordering RPGs online in the middle



Depending on the quality of the pizza, there's a very good chance you'd see me regularly.  Especially when my gamer buddies and I get together for lunch.


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## Arnwyn (Jun 30, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> --the problem that's causing the death of the FLGS isn't the people who would be affected by an improvement in customer service; it's the people who benefitted from the customer service when they started out gaming, then for some reason (usually age/marriage/kids) moved to home gaming and stopped buying their goods at an FLGS in favor of an online or big-box discount solution.



Heh... you just described me almost perfectly.

Indeed - I did shop at a LGS (not F) for a few years before a combination of them moving out to the fricking boonies along with the internet made buying certain things (like gaming books) much easier and cheaper.

Combine all that with my disinterest in 4e and that Paizo's stuff is hit and miss in any b&m store, and my purchasing habits are sealed.




> No, what I want--as a gamer and a game store owner--is people to support their FLGSes *not * to keep them afloat because without your business they would go under, but because _the FLGS is important to the entire gaming community_.



But you lost me here. I was never "fostered" or supported in any way by the LGS. I had to fight tooth and nail when they (invariably) didn't have what I wanted and had to "special order" something, hoping to god it might come in at all, much less in any semblance of a reasonable time frame.

And, needless to say, I am only interested in gaming with my close friends - I certainly have never met anyone who I wanted to game with in a store, and I have quickly discovered in recent years that the way strangers play _sucks_. Yeah, that's right - I said it. 

'Supporting the gaming community as a whole' is one of the last things I care about.


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## vazanar (Jun 30, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> No, what I want--as a gamer and a game store owner--is people to support their FLGSes *not *to keep them afloat because without your business they would go under, but because _the FLGS is important to the entire gaming community_. Without support they're not necessarily going to go out of business, but rather go out of the business of //selling RPGs//, which turns them into UNfriendly local gaming stores.
> 
> (As a side note, I couldn't agree more with posters who say that it is the onus of the FLGS to serve the customer. That's just good business sense. The problem is that they need customers (of RPGs) to serve, or they'll stop supporting RPGs.)
> 
> ...




I go to my local Flgs for 40k, warhammer, comics or dd minis. Sides that the owner, to stay in buisness has gotten away from anything else. He is doing quite well so it seems to have been the right choice. However, the general attitude to things not on that list sends me to the internet. So I buy comics and 40k/fantasy there, but thats it.

The only real rpg xp Ive gotten from a store (a now closed flgs) was introduction to warmachine then the Iron Kingdoms.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 30, 2008)

Mallus said:


> Except, of course, in the businesses where that doesn't happen.




You mean, of course, the ones where the small vendors remain in business?  Otherwise, I wonder which ones you mean.


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## Belen (Jun 30, 2008)

DaveMage said:


> No way.
> 
> Competition between amazon, bn.com, buy.com, and other online vendors will keep it where it is.




Very doubtful.  The prices would rise significantly.  It happens with every industry that undergoes this process.  Sometimes the prices even go higher.  Of course, Wizards could fix the situation by demanding a min. sale price, but I do not seem them doing it.


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## Mallus (Jun 30, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> You mean, of course, the ones where the small vendors remain in business?



What's happening with music pricing models in light of the disappearance of independent music retailers?


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## Mallus (Jun 30, 2008)

Belen said:


> Very doubtful.  The prices would rise significantly.  It happens with every industry that undergoes this process.



Can you provide some examples? I'm not a huge supporter of conglomerate-shopping, but I'm having a hard time accepting that retailers like Walmart or Target raise their median prices above what smaller, independent retailers used to charge in the same market.


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## Storyteller01 (Jun 30, 2008)

Mallus said:


> Can you provide some examples? I'm not a huge supporter of conglomerate-shopping, but I'm having a hard time accepting that retailers like Walmart or Target raise their median prices above what smaller, independent retailers used to charge in the same market.




Depwnds on how you look at it.

1) Wal-mart hasn't killed off all competition yet.

2) Having your own factories and shipping means under cutting these industries, especially with as much business as Wal-Mart could generate for them. Combine that with telling employees to use welfare for medical, then their mark up is higher than what independants use, even at the lower rate.


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## Storyteller01 (Jun 30, 2008)

romp said:


> I think I am going to open a game shop with a pizza oven/deli counter in the back, game tables out front, and a computer for ordering RPGs online in the middle






Wizards tried the computers and gaming tables with the three stores they opened. All it usually garnerd were kids looking to play free games.


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## jdrakeh (Jun 30, 2008)

Mallus said:


> Can you provide some examples? I'm not a huge supporter of conglomerate-shopping, but I'm having a hard time accepting that retailers like Walmart or Target raise their median prices above what smaller, independent retailers used to charge in the same market.




I think it's one of those "Discount stores are eeeeeeeeevil!" fallacies. I'm sure it happens, I've simply never seen it happen on the scale or to the degree that 'Big Box' opponents claim. It seems to be as much hogwash as the idea that all small, family-owned, stores are all decent, good, places to shop with low, fair, prices. Most of the small, family-owned, stores that I've seen fall prey to 'Big Box' price wars were originally selling their stuff at 300% markup over MSRP (or more). Small wonder that the 10% to 20% discount off of MSRP wins over consumers, really.


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## jonjorgensen (Jun 30, 2008)

*my experience*

I am a product of the FLGS.  I hope that I am not unique here in saying that, I would never have gotten into RPG tabletop without the FLGS near me.  
To me the place has never been "the place to buy books" but "the place where I can meet socially to game with my friends and deveop new friends."  

Now maybe it helps that my gaming store is almost as old as 2nd edition, and is kept clean and uncluttered, but I think that what really attracts "old timers" like me is that it's my substitute bar.

I go to my local store 'cuz everybody knows my name, and they are always glad I came.  (well maybe not one guy, but we ignore him...)

I think that the idea that the interwebs can claim to be the "cradle for RPG gaming" to be silly.  Before Ultima Online, no one I have yet met ever played RPG's on the PC, but all the girls and guys I knew who gamed did so at the store I went to.  (Or ran games at lunch in the scholl cafe... that was me)

I just can't fathom shopping around online and seeing a DND 4.0 book on amazon and going "Ohhh...I'll buy that and pitch it to my friends"  It simply defies my experience in gaming.  

As far as local book stores go, I know one off the top of my head who is still open, but only because of very good support by the publishes of the product and the writers of the works.  Bookends, in Ridgewood NJ, does a brisk business but mainly due to their ability to bring writers to sign books on a weekly basis.  

I hope that the FLGS does not go the way of the Dodo, it would mean the end of my gaming and the end of an era where smelly fat people and not-so-fat and not-so-smelly people can gather together and interact socially in a way that would not have come otherwise.

BTW.  My local gaming store is the gamersgambit, and even if the owner is a strange dark haired irishman in bad need of a haircut, he's very friendly and earnest in his goal to make his FLGS one that you WANT to come back to.

just two cent...rub em together if you like.


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## Mallus (Jun 30, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> 1) Wal-wart hasn't killed off all competition yet.



In many localities it effective has, except for other corporate big boxes. Anyway, I still find it hard to believe that big corporate retailers will be able to raise the price point on a broad range of items significantly _after_ spending time establishing the low price point for them. Especially not while under pressure from online retailers.

This just strikes me a wrongheaded; not 'voodoo economics' so much as 'Dr. Doom economics'.


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## redcard (Jun 30, 2008)

Having grown up in Arkansas, I know a great deal about Wal-mart.  Walmart is successful because Sam Walton decided long ago that if you sell more stuff, you can lower your mark-up and present lower prices.      He also said that if you sell stuff at higher markups, someone will come in and sell stuff at LOWER markups and you'll be out of a job.

So perhaps they will raise their prices.  If that happens, then they die out and someone new comes in.  But I doubt it'll happen.


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> Right now, we're doing it in QuickBooks as a credit to the customer's account in the computer.  This places recordkeeping in our hands, which as has been mentioned deprives us of the ability to place the onus on the customer to keep track (and thus means that we can't make pure profit when the customer doesn't bring in their piece of paper/card/receipt/what-have-you).  I'm not a big fan of that sort of business dealing; hampered by a strong sense of ethics.  That may change as time goes on...



The problem with using a database is that, not only are you not making a profit from it, you're essentially losing profit through time spent and program cost. However, you do maintain a small aspect of customer loyalty, which can assist in long term sales so long as your current profits remain lucrative.


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

I just realized another problem with with FLGS vs. Internet sales.

Amazon and other online retailers offset their discounts with ads. Remember the thing after Amazon first came out about how Amazon, by normal standards was completely bankrupt, but how it makes its money back on ads? They're likely still doing that. By selling items at a loss, they bring in more visitors that click more ads and thus earn Amazon more money.

Can an FLGS compete with that? Many here don't think so. But what if the FLGS rethinks its business in a similar way to online sales? By providing services (as mentioned), even such as advertising other products and businesses, they could perhaps earn some money from advertisers. Sure, it's not the same as online, but the more customers they bring in to these companies from their location, the more profit they can make. They can use the products and services in their stores to bring in the customers that can earn them money in a whole different way.

So try this service model:

*Standard products and services (includes new suggestions)*


Rule #1: Put the customer first.
Knowledgeable, attentive, well-kempt staff in clean polos (with store logo if possible) and khaki's. Hire women when possible.
Great customer service
Service Subscriptions (dependent on customers buying products), including:
Use of game tables with comfortable chairs
Wireless Internet
Store game reviews and carefully monitored and organized local gaming scene email updates with sneak peeks and insider information by email
Service subscription applied to future products.
Piped music, especially if you can do it for each table. If you use a table jukebox system, GM's can customize music to the mood of the campaign while earning money for the store.
Small image projector(s) for game maps, game images, and seminars.
Affordable (or free) copier service (Have a copier on hand)
 
Computer locked to your website available for staff and customers to order products from your website for online prices.
Food & Drinks at reasonable prices, typically in the form of vending machines, but also flavored sodas and espresso/lattes.
Rotate merchandise monthly.
Online services including forum for local players.
Tournaments
Sign with 1 hour loitering limit at tables. Customers must play, buy, or leave.
Keep a binder up front and near the displays with a quick synopsis of what X or Y game is about.
Carefully monitored and organized local gaming scene in-store updates.
Free Demonstrations
Cork Boards for local games kept clean and up to date
The latest Gaming Posters (Both on the walls and for sale)
Good lighting
Exciting, fun atmosphere
Gaming friendly interior (and if possible exterior) design
Clean store
Clean bathrooms
Lots of space for gaming smack dab in middle of the store with product on all sides, keeping the products pressed up against the walls as much as possible. Keep the shelving minimal, against and perpendicular to the wall. Example: _|_|_|_
Diverse available products at competitive prices: art books, manga books, comics and graphic novels, board games of all kinds, huge variety of RPG's, huge variety of TCG's (local and imported), minis games, walls of peuter miniatures, t-shirts, figurines, RPG-related fantasy and sci-fi novels, a table of previously owned or outdated materials. Everything that appeals to the hobby gamer. Use the profits from all other services to bring down the costs of the products sold and to pay for the discounts. DO NOT SHRINKWRAP your products (Accept a certain amount of product damage).
Keep only 1 sample of each product on the floor and keep the rest in boxes. If you have to, display only the flaship product of a line, while compressing the rest to display their spines.

Also sell supplies like paper, dice, pencils, graph paper, battle mats, miniatures paints and glues, and markers.
Discount Cards available with memberships in special store events. Total discounts should bring product prices down to competitive with online prices.
Offer family discounts on RPG products.
Set purchase amount bonuses (When you buy $100 of product, you get...)
Hold RPG, actor, and novel signings.
Hold celebrity games, where a famous RPG designer GM's or plays in a game.
Give one product away with another, such as a single miniature with an RPG book.
Hold raffles for free product
Family Friendly
Sidewalk gaming (particularly if you can do it inside a mall).
T-shirt giveaways with the logo of the store.
Information on where to find the product if you don't have the product available and the customer needs it NOW.
Gift cards for your store
Credit accounts (Credit cards if you can. See a bank for small business needs.)
Debit subscriptions (For no other service than the customer putting money in so that when they're ready they can just choose a product they want and it's theirs.)
Special Events with giveaways.
Teaming up with other FLGS to hold public events and help mitigate the costs for the above-mentioned cards and deals.
Have a relay system and open communication with other FLGS
Increase the speed by which you get products by knowing where local Amazon (and other distributors) wearhouses are.
Give sneak peaks and insider information to customers who buy similar products.
Hold mini-cons.
Have flier campaigns distributed to middle income and upper middle income families.
Create ways for helping those in lower income brackets to maintain their hobby.
Make all in-store events known on your website.
Focus your sales attention. Do you see a mother coming in with her 10 year-old son browsing for any old game? Perfect opportunity to graduate him to roleplaying. Particularly give attention to mentioning that there are regular games in the store that last hours. Is there someone conversing about how he hasn't played RPG's in ages? Encourage him to get back into it and offer him a deal that makes it hard for him to refuse on a product of his choice. You might be taking it at a loss at that time, but if he buys it, you've just snagged a long time customer. Be a gentleman to women (Pretty. Ugly. Whatever). Compliment the ladies. No, don't flirt, just let them know they've been noticed. "Hey, great purse, where'd you get that? My wife likes that style." You can then talk to them about things like playing roleplaying games with their husbands/boyfriends/guy friends/children to get more face time with them.
Now for...

*Non-service, Non-sales Related Profits:*


External ads on website
External ads on drink cups (paid for by the external company, of course)
External products offered with internal products (paid for by the external company, of course)
Offer to carry gaming company ads specific to the company, instead of their product (WOTC, Paizo, Topps, etc.; paid for by the company)
Keep meetup.com, yellowpages.com, and gaming companies updated with your business information so that they can update their "Local Stores" databases.
Associate program
Have a discount card exchange with local vendors, costume and prop shops, and computer repair/sales shops where you give away discount cards for them with each purchase and they do the same for you.
Participate in various volunteer activities, including charity drives and community service (helping with local improvements, etc.). Be sure to get the tax write-offs. Holding your own such drives is the best way to get your name out as the headlining company.
Hold LARP events at parks with your banner ad in full view.
Advertise in nationwide gaming magazines and even the free PDF fanzines.
Become an online outlet (more than just a web presence, but becoming one of the retailers that sells at a discount. This can help you bring down in-store costs as well).
Optimize your website for search engines. Its not hard to find companies to optimize you for 50$ to 100$ rather then the 2 or 3 thousand others charge.
Get a small business loan to carry out any of these things on either list.


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## ironvyper (Jul 1, 2008)

romp said:


> I think I am going to open a game shop with a pizza oven/deli counter in the back, game tables out front, and a computer for ordering RPGs online in the middle




Throw in some real comfortable chairs, maybe a couple of projectors on tables near the walls so anyone running a game can put maps on the wall and you'd get my business every week.


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

ironvyper said:


> Throw in some real comfortable chairs, maybe a couple of projectors on tables near the walls so anyone running a game can put maps on the wall and you'd get my business every week.



Updated my above post with projectors.


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## pg13 (Jul 1, 2008)

*A couple of random memories...*



Storyteller01 said:


> Wizards tried the computers and gaming tables with the three stores they opened. All it usually garnered were kids looking to play free games.




That's true.  I was here in Seattle when two Wizards stores opened (one in the U-District and the other in Northgate Mall) and I thought they were the coolest looking places--but I felt so incredibly old compared to everyone else that was there, none of whom were in the retail section of the store.

That was the astonishing thing--the actual amount of space given to the store  (and, thus, the amount of stuff they carried to sell) versus the seemingly endless amount of space given over to either empty tables for gaming or computer consoles was striking.

So, the only things I ever bought from a Wizards store were KODT comic books--because they were the only place I'd found that actually stocked them.  And I never ran or played a game there...and found other places to shop for most of the stuff I wanted.  So, no matter how cool it looked, I only went to the Wizards location in the U-District three times...and I was disappointed but not surprised when I went back to the Wizards store in the U-District for what would have been the fourth time...only to find it emptied out and locked up.



...and, if I think about the time when I bought the most gaming stuff, ever...it was when there was a Games & Gizmos location six blocks from the Record Store I helped manage.  It was corporate and sterile--but it was nearby and decently stocked.  I'd go there on my lunch hour and time afte time, I'd come back with a sourcebook or a new game...or, just as often, a trivia/board game.

And, after they closed, although I didn't realize it until I looked back at it...it might have been a few years before I bought any RPG related product.  (Instead, I bought more Xbox, and later Wii, stuff from Best Buy or Amazon.)  This is how I missed out on 3.x (and how confused I am by jumping back in w/4e.)

You know what's gotten me back into buying stuff?  Seeing the low price for the 4e Core Rulebooks from Amazon and being willing to spend that much to satisfy my curiosity.  It's reawakened my long dormant interest in gaming--and I suddenly find myself buying a bunch of books for a bunch of systems...some indy PDFs, some from FLGS, some from Barnes & Noble, some from Amazon.

...and my most recent delve into a local FLGS?  I felt creepy and old in there...and the shopping experience was as crustily eccentric as most of us have experienced (with my interaction with the proprietor lacking any attempt at answering my purchase-centric questions and more along the lines of an annoying NPC tavern encounter)...and I recognized that I was paying full mark-up for something I might have been able to get cheaper, if I could wait a few days for it to be shipped to me.

...but, when you've got that fever...you want convenience and access, and you're willing to pay more for it.

pg--seattle

PS--Reflections after reading a recent gamersgambit post:  Again, I keep going back to my experience in indy-music retail and trying to draw some real world experience in this situation.  

Music retail works at around 30-35% mark-up...but, with the lack of volume in the hobby/game industry, I can see where you'd want to expect a 50% mark-up to off-set your overhead.  

However, you don't want to get into the trap of expecting EVERY PRODUCT to make you its maximum-mark-up...as if that level of mark-up can make up for low volume (and I'm certain you're aware of that.)  That's top down thinking--that's what YOU need (or what you've convinced yourself you need) and consumers don't give a damn what YOU need.  You have to figure out how you can give consumers what THEY need in a way that makes it work for you.  Start thinking about things that way first--what they want from you and how you can give it to them, rather than always thinking about what you need from them and how they should give it to you.

As anyone who has watched Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares knows...you can fall into an awful trap if you see your volume of sales become sluggish and hope to make up for that with higher prices.  It seems logical--but it will kill a business.

Perhaps you can't compete, across the board, with Big Box or On-Line retailers on price--but in the short term, you can still use you specific item-based prices aggressively in order to generate traffic.  In fact, you HAVE to.  Telling everyone that you're offering a good price on a desired item for a limited time is a time-honored traditional way of generating traffic--and once you've got them in the store, then you use your superior service and product knowledge to push full-priced add-on sales...or, better yet, be ready by self-bundling products related to what you've put on sale in a point-of-purchase area.  

PPS--Gamesgambit, you sound like you're doing well by the customers that you have...you may be getting all of the business you can from your current customer base.  Maybe the problem isn't the size of the piece of pie that you're being served--maybe the problem is the size of the pie.

What can you do, other than simply "continuing to exist", to increase the size of your potential market?  How can you get people into gaming (or, perhaps just as importantly, BACK into gaming...)???  

And recognize that I don't necessarily mean "how do you get the kids to put down their DS's and pick up some dice?"--in fact, I think going the OTHER way is the way to go...  How do you sell tabletop RPGing as a social activity 
enjoyed by college students or adults?

Rather than spinning it as something that kids do--knowing that everything that kids do, kids eventually grow out of--and back to something that smart, artistic, social adults find enjoyment in doing (and spending money on)???

I think there's a segment on your local "PM Magazine"-style tv show on that, if you can manage it, just waiting to be filmed in your store...and that's valuable free advertising right there.


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## Miyaa (Jul 1, 2008)

There were two gaming shoppes in Columbia, MO when I first started into gaming in college. One had just moved to a new location underneath a Mexican restaurant, had ample space to host up to three small tournaments in a row, and immediately started doing customer cards where after so many dollars of purchases, you get a $5 certificate. The second one was basically a hole in the wall with a basement so you could do some gaming, but it also had a considerable comic business.

To make a long-story short, the first one, Valhalla's Gate, is the only one now. The other guy couldn't make either work, and he was only too happy to leave the business when the local United Methodist church decided not to offer him rent in the hole in the wall. (Well, because they thought of RPG as inherently evil. But that's probably another subject for another thread.)

But Valhalla's continues to do fairly well, and I think actually made a profit off of 4.0. Also, because of the location, it's now part the booming part of town, and often will get customers in by the scores. (Most nights, especially during the school year, they have roughly fifty people mulling around, at any one time.) They don't do everything that I've seen suggested, but they do it fairly well. (It also helps to have a really stringent and trained staff, too.)

I think the other thing to keep in mind that Wizards, while the biggest, isn't the only large gaming company around. You have your White Wolf, Steven Jackson Games, etc. They don't make D&D their only egg, nor anything else Wizards makes (Magic, Pokemon, etc.) It's equally divided between board games and RPG. I also think they have interest in the computer/console arcade place that has done really well (opened a second site), so I think the diversity is important.


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## Victim (Jul 1, 2008)

The idea that someone now would drive around to a specialty shop for something that they're potentially interested in seems really strange.  15 years ago, yeah - I remember having my Mom drive us around doing exactly that.  But now?  How many potential new players are going to go out of their way to check out a specialty shop as opposed looking for information online or looking at products in a large bookstore?


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## carmachu (Jul 1, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> The impetus for this post was primarily to convince those of you who *USED* to shop at FLGSes and were lured away by online and big-box pricing to remember where the game community that fostered you came from, and to support them so that the next generation of gamers like you can have the same experience.





The delusion is that you think that the FLAGS was the center of gaming community and fostered us.

for many thats just not the case.


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## Spinachcat (Jul 1, 2008)

GAMA should have organized all the gaming retailers into a bloc and asked WotC as a unified group to please put a 15% discount cap on the D&D books.   WotC doesn't make a dime extra when Amazon sells books at 40% off.   There was NO need for discounts that steep in this niche industry.  

The only way I can see a LGS make money today is by becoming a mini-con location every weekend and most weeknights.   It has to become a social hub.   Think an English Pub instead of a bookstore.  Charge a cover fee and give me a raffle ticket for a door prize and I'm happy.  

If I ever smoked enough crack to open a game store, it would definitely be 1/2 shelves, 1/4 pub and 1/4 game lounge.  Gamers don't need gourmet food.   They need good food that's cheap and readily available.  You don't need a kitchen or a cook.   You need two microwaves, a freezer and a fridge.  You don't make food, you reheat premade stuff that you buy in bulk.  

I am always stunned by game stores with game space and they stand there watching everyone go out for food and drinks.  And let's be honest - we are talking about a hobby full of middle class male teenagers and male adults who have no nutrition sense and big appetites with wallets that are always open for some snackage.  The same guy who never has money for his own copy of the PHB always has money for fast food on demand. 

BTW, every game store needs more impulse buys.   I am taking $1 bins that get people to drop a few bucks for stuff they don't need.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 1, 2008)

> Gen Y doesn't control more wealth...they spend more money. Big difference there.




While its true that older folks earn more money, I'll stand by my assertion.

The "controls more wealth" language came from statistical analysis of spending habits, and the key language was "direct or _indirect_ control" of wealth.

While Gen Y still hasn't fully entered the job market, they are already making a measurable shift in patterns of consumption completely out of proportion to their actual incomes.
View Post


> > or your store has a "No outside food & drinks" policy.
> 
> 
> 
> I hate these policies and refuse to eat anything in places that have them (unless they're a restaurant, corner store, etc and their business is to sell food rather then to sell gaming material).




Sometimes they have those restrictions for a reason that may not be self-evident.  One I know of is located in a mall in which NO business allows outside food or drink- its part of the conditions of everyone's leases.  They are, however, allowed to sell food or drink.



> Well, turns out that the FLGS was a game/porno store.




I think I know what the "F" in "FLGS" stands for in THAT store!



> The conclusion of all this is, if you have a lot of money, and are willing to take a huge loss, you can do loss leaders until such time as you drive competition out of the market, then raise your prices and/or have so much volume sales that you can make up for your crappy margin with numbers.




That is pretty much a definition of "predatory pricing" and is illegal in the USA...if you're caught!


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## Mercurius (Jul 1, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> Secondly, the fact is that for all the blather about helping out small business and capital gains tax and investment and the whole nine yards you'll hear from fiscal conservatives and libertarians alike, when small business gets replaced by large conglomerates, you wind up with a shortage of options and a seriously underemployed population.  Town main streets become wastelands, anyone who wants to venture out of the corporate model of working for someone else winds up with limited options, fewer jobs are created for the young, tax rates decline in general for local communities as small businesses go out of business, which leads to dead communities.  What we're seeing the start of is the phenomenon of mining towns when the mine runs dry or one-industry-towns when the logging plant/factory/military base moves overseas or goes out of business, only on a much broader scale.




I think this is already a reality, unfortunately. Or at least we are beyond "the start of" this phenomena.

For example, Barnes & Noble and Borders have a large selection, right? Wrong. Go into a Powells in Portland, OR, and browse the aisles and you realize just how limited the selection at the corporate stores. It isn't only B&N's fault, it also has to do with publishing houses and the erasing of the "mid-range" book. All publishers want to put out now is best-sellers and new authors, as well as the usual classics (read: perennial sellers). The profit margin on the mid-range authors is just too slim.

So if you go into a Powells you see all the authors that are no longer published, and the wealth of previously published literature--and information, period--that is lacking in the corporate stores.

This huge problem is endemic in media culture. Look at the cable news channels: all they talk about is what sells. Peak oil, for example, is only just beginning to hit mainstream press, and only now because it is costing everyone money. But alt press like Democracy Now! have been talking about it for years...

Need I go on? 

Oh yeah, and you need to employ Corjay!


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## JoeGKushner (Jul 1, 2008)

Mallus said:


> What's happening with music pricing models in light of the disappearance of independent music retailers?




I probably buy more music from eMusic and iTunes than I do in the store.

The music industry's complete failure to move into the 21st century probably isn't quite the same as Amazon/Buy/online book pricing.


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## gamersgambit (Jul 1, 2008)

Corjay said:


> The problem with using a database is that, not only are you not making a profit from it, you're essentially losing profit through time spent and program cost. However, you do maintain a small aspect of customer loyalty, which can assist in long term sales so long as your current profits remain lucrative.




Oh--Quickbooks POS is our register.  We're not spending any extra to keep track of it that way; all our customers have records that I can add money to as part of this.  So what I'm doing is cost-neutral.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 1, 2008)

[tangent]Call me a luddite if you wish, but I buy almost all of my music in music stores, in CD form.

I prefer having the cover art and liner notes you don't get with downloads.[/tangent]


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

Mercurius said:


> Oh yeah, and you need to employ Corjay!



Hehe. Did someone say money?! 



gamersgambit said:


> Oh--Quickbooks POS is our register.  We're not spending any extra to keep track of it that way; all our customers have records that I can add money to as part of this.  So what I'm doing is cost-neutral.



Ah. Cool. In that case there could also be other benefits to both you and the customer by having it at your fingertips.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 1, 2008)

I believe in sympathy.  Sympathy doesn't help the person or industry you sympathize with, or even necessarily generate goodwill, but I still believe in it.

  I sympathize with FLGS (or LGS, or whatever.)  If they are going out of business, I sympathize.
  I sympathize with a lot of our Hobby that has suffered and/or disappeared altogether.

  Adversary has hurt us badly.  We must face all the troubles of life, and now economy realities and competition from other pastimes has dwindled our Hobby.
  Indeed, I have compared what has happened to the tabletop D&D industry, to Tolkien's Battle of Unnumbered Tears, as a metaphor.  So many things lost, so much pain, so much loss, that no one tale or song can contain all the grief.

  But we are still here, and the Hobby is still here.  If the metaphor is extended, we still have hope.  Gondolin still stands.  Nargothrond is hidden.  Doriath is defended.  Ulmo aids us.  It is not the end.

  Blaming or demonizing or attacking FLGS (or even LGS) will do nothing to help our situation.  It is more like the beginning of enacting out the Tale of Turin Turambar.  Why go that way?  There is hope for the future, for our Hobby, for D&D.  People have lost hope, but I still see hope.  Our tabletop D&D Hobby will have another golden age.  We will endure.


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

Thank you, Gandolf.

Hey, can you make a beautiful willing maiden appear before me? Naked and glistening, preferably.

Oh, and no STD's.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jul 1, 2008)

LOL.  I present thee with Luthien the Fair, the most beautiful maid who ever walked within the confines of Arda.  : )

  -

  (views the above post, and sighs)

  And, if everyone wants to enact the Tale of Turin Turambar, metaphorically, we can do that too.  

  I spoke of sympathy.
  The Adversary does not grant sympathy, that's for sure.  That Adversary is not a Dark Lord in Angband, but it is every bit as relentless and terrible as Morgoth ever was.  Such is the nature of Economic Reality.


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## JDJblatherings (Jul 1, 2008)

Stores and extras- 

Years back I was a co-owner of a comic shop, our best selling items were these rather good lollipops we sold for 35 cents each or 3 for a dollar.  Maybe we'd have done better business as a candy shop/comic rack. Special orders ,even with our generous discount, were also profitable but we got the money first.


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## Belen (Jul 1, 2008)

Mallus said:


> Can you provide some examples? I'm not a huge supporter of conglomerate-shopping, but I'm having a hard time accepting that retailers like Walmart or Target raise their median prices above what smaller, independent retailers used to charge in the same market.




Jiffylube:  The started out undercutting oil changes.  The second they came to dominate the market, the prices rose dramatically.


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## jdrakeh (Jul 1, 2008)

Belen said:


> Jiffylube:  The started out undercutting oil changes.  The second they came to dominate the market, the prices rose dramatically.





Really? Here, Jiffylube still charges considerably less than most independently owened shops.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 1, 2008)

Mallus said:


> What's happening with music pricing models in light of the disappearance of independent music retailers?




Prices rose significantly, then dropped due to the "piracy" (file sharing) models that arose in direct response to those rising prices.  The music industry also managed to get the government to give it a "tax" on all blank CD sales so that it could maintain its profit (a policy that allows for hidden pricing, btw).  Currently there is a move by the US-led entertainment industry to squash file sharing in those countries where it is legal.  If this succeeds, the prices will again go up.

It is a pretty iron-clad law of economics that prices will rise as far as the market will bear.  The existance of significant and diverse sources of competition acts as a counter to rising prices.  This is easily illustrated by gas stations, where the raise in price at one station causes all stations in a city to go up, and where gas prices rise at the start of long weekends or holidays.  When there are only a few suppliers of a given product, they can (either directly or indirectly) work together without fear of being significantly undercut.  This is exactly how gas retailers work.

In the case of movie theaters, as theaters in North America amalgamated, prices rose significantly.  The rise of DVDs, though, supplimented by the rise of file sharing, has worked to bring the cost of going to the movies back down.  The market will not bear the cost of a high ticket price unless there is a significant advantage to that price over other distribution methods.  Again, the short-term solution is to lower ticket prices, but the long-term solution is to target other distribution methods so that ticket prices can go up again.

It is not "evil" to undercut your competition and drive them out of business, but it would be foolish indeed to then minimize your profit by leaving your prices low.  And it would be foolish indeed to imagine that anyone, anywhere, is going to do so.  Simply put, the buck you save today might well cost you ten bucks tomorrow.


RC


EDIT:  Another example:  I recently bought a used vehicle and had to get a safety certificate.  I went to Canadian Tire, and I was given an estimate of $1400 to get the certificate.  I declined, and had to pay nearly $80 for doing so.  Two days later, through sheer luck, I found a much better mechanic who completed all work for $625 and certified the vehicle to boot.

There was a time, when Canadian Tire was just starting out, when its prices and "Canadian Tire money" offered a significant savings.  Now, Canadian Tire is the market leader in Canada, and no amount of Canadian Tire money is worth paying an extra $777....assuming that they don't go over estimate.


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## redcard (Jul 1, 2008)

One of my former gamestores up north does the 1/2 food 1/4 gamestore 1/4 table thing that was mentioned above.  (Or used to, I don't know if they're still around.)  Something to note about that.. 

If you do that, depending on what you serve and how you serve it, you run a chance of having to be audited by the Department of Health.  In some places, you might be zoned as a restaurant.  Just a little note on that.. it opens up new costs that you might not anticipate.


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## JDJblatherings (Jul 1, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> While its true that older folks earn more money, I'll stand by my assertion.
> 
> The "controls more wealth" language came from statistical analysis of spending habits, and the key language was "direct or _indirect_ control" of wealth.
> 
> While Gen Y still hasn't fully entered the job market, they are already making a measurable shift in patterns of consumption completely out of proportion to their actual incomes.




You certainly want to sell to Gen Y if you are  merchant, no doubt there.  Catering to that crowd is certainly the way to go and a shop should cater to them in any way it sanely can. Eventually credit card debt will catch up with them.   You can't keep consuming out of proportion to actual income for too long. Eventually mom and dad will not be subsidize
 their buying habits.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 1, 2008)

Mercurius said:


> It isn't only B&N's fault, it also has to do with publishing houses and the erasing of the "mid-range" book. All publishers want to put out now is best-sellers and new authors, as well as the usual classics (read: perennial sellers). The profit margin on the mid-range authors is just too slim.





When you are a publisher, and you are dealing with corporate congolomerates that require you to buy back all unsold stock, you might well want to ensure that you publish nothing that you are unsure will sell well.  The corporate bookstores put the onus of risk squarely on the publishers (it used to be spread around in the independent bookstore model), putting a significant squeeze on them.  For small publishers, that squeeze might be enough to close their doors entirely.

The print-on-demand model allows for some chances to be taken by smaller publishers, but even this is somewhat problematic.  In the old days (as with the comic industry now), a publisher would solicit books and then base the print run on the amount of preorders.  The risk of nobody wanting League of Ordinary Gentlemen #1 is thus spread among many, none of whom take too serious a hit from unsold copies.  Since this is done before the printing plates are set up, the publisher undergoes relatively little risk.

(This is also, btw, why pre-orders for Ptolus were so important to Monte Cook.)

OTOH, with small-publisher POD, the plates are set up before the work is ordered, and there is no way to determine what the actual print run will be.  This means there is an upfront cost with no surety of sales afterwords.  At least, in this model, there isn't unsold stock that the publisher is responsible for buying back....but neither is there stock in the bookstore where it might be discovered through random perusal.

So, yes, the corporate bookstore buyback model does directly influence publishers, and is largely responsible for the shrinking midlist.  


RC


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 1, 2008)

> You can't keep consuming out of proportion to actual income for too long. Eventually mom and dad will not be subsidize
> their buying habits.




True, but here's the thing...only a fraction of them are currently drawing a salary, and their overall numbers are equal to or greater than the Baby Boomers.

Once they're all paying their own way, mom & dad will be irrelevant.  They'll be the single biggest demographic out there.  By far.


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## rjdafoe (Jul 1, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> Exactly. Just like Shell, Unico, and other gasoline vendors keep prices down due to competition.
> RC




That is a terrible analogy for your arugument.

Most states have a law that no one must sell gas at below a minumin price, based upon an average of what the stations pay in the state. It has been that way for years, fully regulated like you want, and it has not worked.



Belen said:


> Jiffylube: The started out undercutting oil changes. The second they came to dominate the market, the prices rose dramatically.




And that has nothing do do with the cost of oil in the last 8 years?


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## mlund (Jul 1, 2008)

The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no reason to buy certain products from local retailers. All the talk about job-loss and the death of Main Street is a pile of horse-hockey. There's no reason for a Main Street full of businesses that do nothing more than play middle-man, buying from a distributor and selling on a mark-up. The idea that something like that has to exist is driven by reactionary fears, nostalgia, and a very short-sighted view of history.

"Main Street" killed the "Market Place" model that existed for centuries prior to that. Back in the 70s and 80s everyone pitched a reactionary fit over the "Shopping Mall" model that "threatened to destroy Main Street" and in the 90s people branded "Big Box Stores" the Devil (though they are always sure to mention Wal-Mart by name and never Target). In this new century people are worried about the Internet Business. So it goes, ever on.

When you sell a product that needs no supporting services and is can be shopped for sight unseen you're playing the Cost vs. Convenience game. When you try to move a big-ticket item at at 40% more than the competition can do while still turning a profit, you lose. You deserve to lose. Crying to the government to impose price controls makes you an even bigger loser. Little-ticket items can be sold at bigger margins for convenience (pay $1 for a pencil at a game store or candy) because someone's time is worth more to them than the $0.50 they could save buying from the lowest bidder.

Frankly, if the draw of the Game Store is Convenience and Service, then you need to sell *Convenience* and *Service*. The points made about good customer service habits is critical. A clean, inviting atmosphere is crucial. Use of service facilities such as table space need to be tied to either fees or retail dollars. Game stores can make money off of tournaments and hosting - something Online Retailers and Big Box Stores can't do. You've also got the inside line on small-ticket sales for accessories, food, and beverages. You *must* capitalize on these!

I remember visiting a place in New Mexico for an L5R Kotei and being taken aback at it. The place was basically a coffee bistro with retail shelves in the back half of the area. The tables were just as good for eating, drinking, and doing the crossword puzzle as they were for slapping down cards or going on a dungeon crawl. The place was clean, santitary, and had well-dressed and well-mannered support staff. They had free refills on soda purchases during tournament events. Yes, their coffee, soda, cookies, etc. were overpriced compared to the grocery stores down the street but they did a very brisk business because they understood their business model.

A lot of LGS and Main Street shops never understood the fundamental underpinnings of their business model in the market. That's why they failed so spectacularly.

- Marty Lund


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## Rhianni32 (Jul 1, 2008)

Just took a look at your website....

1: Looking at the calendar of events it looks like you have plenty of events going on and on almost every day.

2: The logo is really driving me nuts. it looks stretched out and forced in there.

3: It looks like you are getting in new lines of products. comics and movies.  I dont want to buy comics from store 1 then go to store 2 for roleplaying books.  I'll go to store 3 even if its farther.

4: Your site needs more information.  Look at the events page I read this
"
*D&D Miniatures*

Wednesdays at 7pm. No entry fee. "

Is this a sanctioned event? is it a tournament with prizes?  Does it take up the entire play area and what if my friends and I want to play something different that isnt listed. I see that the mechwarrior event below is sanctioned so that does help.  The events I looked at didnt list prizes which would be nice.

5: Is the $30 previously spent on items the previous month going to turn into a bookeeping nightmare for you?


6: Your store is starting to sound like a great place to go and hang out at and spend money.  From most of the comments in this thread I think its important to understand that the consumer isnt heartless and only greedy for the lowest deal.  We just need reasons for giving you money vs the next guy.


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## Korgoth (Jul 1, 2008)

mlund said:


> The fact of the matter is that there is absolutely no reason to buy certain products from local retailers. All the talk about job-loss and the death of Main Street is a pile of horse-hockey. There's no reason for a Main Street full of businesses that do nothing more than play middle-man, buying from a distributor and selling on a mark-up. The idea that something like that has to exist is driven by reactionary fears, nostalgia, and a very short-sighted view of history.
> 
> "Main Street" killed the "Market Place" model that existed for centuries prior to that. Back in the 70s and 80s everyone pitched a reactionary fit over the "Shopping Mall" model that "threatened to destroy Main Street" and in the 90s people branded "Big Box Stores" the Devil (though they are always sure to mention Wal-Mart by name and never Target). In this new century people are worried about the Internet Business. So it goes, ever on.
> 
> ...




Preach on, brother. The LGS is just a middle man. The internet has given consumers the power to bypass the middle man (whose economic role appears increasingly parasitic) and go almost straight to the source. This gives access to cheaper products and thus the consumer can stretch his dollar a bit farther (very important nowadays).

It amazes me that some people in this thread have gone so far as to advocate a limited socialism for use as a weapon by the shopowners against the working class consumer. Actually, that sounds somewhat familiar....

Bottom line: if your crummy, dinosauric business is failing, don't call in the Pinkertons to beat money out of the working stiffs. Instead, try making your business a place that I actually want to shop.

Most game stores these days are boutiques. Boutiques are for rich people. Most gamers are not rich people. On the other hand, I like this notion of "Game Store as Game Cafe". That makes sense to me.

Will I buy a set of hardbacks at the game store for $105 that I can buy online for $60? Nope. And until the Sturmabteilung shows up to shut down consumer-friendly capitalism, I don't have to. But if the game store sells mechanical pencils, graph paper, character sheets, DM screens, coffee, pizza, measuring tape, rulers, dry erase boards, folders, binders, note pads, sodas, potato chips and huge quantities of dice? You betcha. And then, while I'm there buying those items and gaming (assuming a nice atmosphere, etc.) maybe I will end up buying impulse items or obscure items that the online stores don't have or haven't bothered to discount. Add that to a nice stock of used items (because who uses Ebay except because they have to?) and we've got a recipe for success.

But that all takes work and thought. As opposed to just wanting the government to come in and fix it by putting the screws on some other schlub (that lowest schlub of all, in fact: the customer).


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## gamersgambit (Jul 1, 2008)

I can't believe how many fallacies are contained in mlund and Korgoth's assertions.

"There's no reason for a Main Street full of businesses that do nothing more than play middle-man, buying from a distributor and selling on a mark-up."

Pretty much *EVERY* retailer buys from distributors and sells on a mark-up, including Amazon.  The *particular* market I am talking about in this post is *RPG Books* which have cover prices set by the publisher and printed on the damn books.  It's not a *markup* in the sense that we're gouging customers.

See re: Amazon and deep discounting loss leaders.

"and in the 90s people branded "Big Box Stores" the Devil (though they are always sure to mention Wal-Mart by name and never Target). ". 

Do your research about WalMart *AND* Target.  Target is hardly pristine in its practices or contributions to urban sprawl.  But that's neither here nor there.  Even were they pristine examples of good business practices, that doesn't excuse the tailspin they're putting the economy through.  

People don't think enough about economic modelling, largely due to the conceit that capitalism as it is defined in the American mold is the ideal path to wealth and prosperity.  Has it not occurred to anyone, for instance, that the reason that deep-discounted big-box retailers are so popular is because //people are getting poorer//?  Is there no correlation between the two?


"And until the Sturmabteilung shows up to shut down consumer-friendly capitalism, I don't have to."

I feel special, the thread I started has finally hit the Godwin's Law threshhold!


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## Korgoth (Jul 1, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> I feel special, the thread I started has finally hit the Godwin's Law threshhold!




Hey, I'm not the one who suggested that the government clamp down on favorable discounts to prop up the failure of the LGS.

Show some consistency. Do you want the government to clamp down on deep discounts or not? If you do, you're essentially saying that you want to use state power to prop up your failing business model. If you don't then I have no argument with you.

As to the question of markups. Yes, Amazon has a markup. It is much smaller than your markup. Therefore they are a better middle man than you. Period.

And as to that cover price "set by the publisher and printed on the damn books": what does MSRP stand for? Do you know? I'm guessing that you do know what it stands for.


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2008)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> [tangent]Call me a luddite if you wish, but I buy almost all of my music in music stores, in CD form.[/tangent]



You're a Luddite because you want your music on a silvery disk read by a laser. That's awesome. 

Welcome to the future!


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## drothgery (Jul 1, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> Do your research about WalMart *AND* Target.  Target is hardly pristine in its practices or contributions to urban sprawl.




Urban sprawl is caused by people getting richer and having access to better transportation in environments where it's possible to move into less densely populated suburbs. It's been happening for centuries, and will happen in every growing city where government regulation or geography fails to prevent it because most people with kids like having space.

But this is veering dangerously close to violating the 'no politics on ENWorld' rule.


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## mlund (Jul 1, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> I can't believe how many fallacies are contained in mlund and Korgoth's assertions.




Actually, I regret to inform you that you are the one imposing fallacies on the discussion. I feel for you, truly. I love my FLGS. I just understand the distinctions between a terrible business model and a viable one. I went to school for this sort of thing.



> > "There's no reason for a Main Street full of businesses that do nothing more than play middle-man, buying from a distributor and selling on a mark-up."
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty much *EVERY* retailer buys from distributors and sells on a mark-up, including Amazon.  The *particular* market I am talking about in this post is *RPG Books* which have cover prices set by the publisher and printed on the damn books.  It's not a *markup* in the sense that we're gouging customers.



See, I never said anything about "gouging" anyone.

The argument that they "have cover priced set by the publisher and printed on the damn books," is a fallacious argument. I see no justification for expecting anyone to sell the "damn books," for that price in the United States.

Moreover, you still haven't addressed the issue at hand: If you only play middle-man, providing no service and adding no value to the product, *no one* should buy from you if someone else has a lower price.

The point being made is that businesses that refuse to engage in adding value or providing services live and die on *price* alone. A lot of businesses on the Main Street of my old town tried to operate this way and died out because of it. Those that figured out how to add value or provide services did well for themselves.

I'm not even going to get into the foolishness of anti-free-market rhetoric and slander against competing businesses that might appeal to the Noam Chomsky and Saul Alinsky disciples in the audience. Find better ways to compete or get out of the market. No one is entitled to make a living doing nothing but re-selling D&D books at full retail price out of a brick-and-mortar store front.

This kind of reminds me of the griping that went on when the concept of renting video games was going to kill off the game industry, or how the VCR was going to destroy television.

If you want to gripe about things, leave the pro-union stumping and the command economy junk at the door and focus on the selling-for-a-loss tactics and the evasion of Sales Tax that some of these online retailers exploit. You'd be best served building the better mouse-trap, though. Your business model should not be predicated on retail sales in a vacuum, but rather adding value and services that generate income and facilitate some of those sales.

- Marty Lund


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2008)

jdrakeh said:


> Jiffylube still charges considerably less than most independently owened shops.



Same here. Unless these corporate retailers institute 'company town' pricing models after they drive out the independent competition, their price increases aren't relevant. Prices go up.  

Speaking of Jiffylube, I used them until I found a family owned garage operated by people I both like and trust. I'm happy to patronize their business. But they're offering me something a franchise outfit like Jiffylube can't ie, expertise and honesty when I need more serious car repairs.


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Preach on, brother. The LGS is just a middle man. The internet has given consumers the power to bypass the middle man (whose economic role appears increasingly parasitic) and go almost straight to the source. This gives access to cheaper products and thus the consumer can stretch his dollar a bit farther (very important nowadays).




Sure, they can stretch their dollar by sending their money out of their community to some remote massive parasite rather than to their neighbor parasite, who at least contributes to the community as their property taxes support the local schools and municipal services and who tries to maintain a vibrant downtown so people don't have to all drive out to the fringes to shop at the big box.

So, why do I want to just support the remote parasite who could care less for my local town's tax base and will probably ship off his phone support to some call center in another country so it can save even more money?


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> Prices rose significantly, then dropped due to the "piracy" (file sharing) models that arose in direct response to those rising prices.



Music piracy rose in direct response to the technology that enabled it. Also, explain the success of legal music download services like iTunes, which is thriving despite the effect of illegal music downloads. 



> IThe existance of significant and diverse sources of competition acts as a counter to rising prices.



Which does not mean that all competitors exert equal or meaningful pressure. An independent game store does _nothing_ to Amazon's pricing on game books.


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## redcard (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> So, why do I want to just support the remote parasite who could care less for my local town's tax base and will probably ship off his phone support to some call center in another country so it can save even more money?




That's kind of unfair to put on us, though.

I mean, why support the local parasite who's going to pay some kid $5.75 an hour, run a dump, and charge full price for products that are sold to them for less?  

Okay, yes, I understand that Amazon's markdowns were significant.. but I also know for a fact that the giftsets ended up slightly above cost to at least my FLGS.   

It's your choice where you price your products.  It's our choice whether or not we buy from you.  Stop using guilt to prop your business up.  We're all paying $3.50+ per gallon now.  We're all in this global recession that's not a recession.   Did you ever think that eating MIGHT be more important than supporting a game store, and that when someone sees a $60 core set the thought that runs through their head is "Great.. I can get this AND still afford to fill my tank."


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## mlund (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> So, why do I want to just support the remote parasite who could care less for my local town's tax base and will probably ship off his phone support to some call center in another country so it can save even more money?




Come on, now, Wizards of the Coast isn't *that* bad yet. 

But if you really want to buy John Doe's home-made "Mutants and Man-holes" RPG instead of playing D&D to support your local economy, all the more power to you.

- Marty Lund


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Bottom line: if your crummy, dinosauric business is failing, don't call in the Pinkertons to beat money out of the working stiffs. Instead, try making your business a place that I actually want to shop.




What an interesting use of the term Pinkertons... since they were the ones hired by the _corporations_ to protect their interests, not by small businessmen.



mlund said:


> Come on, now, Wizards of the Coast isn't *that* bad yet.
> 
> But if you really want to buy John Doe's home-made "Mutants and Man-holes" RPG instead of playing D&D to support your local economy, all the more power to you.
> 
> - Marty Lund




WotC is a producer. But what about online clearinghouses like Amazon? How many of these reseller parasites (as Korgoth describes resellers) and their practices are you going to support with the dollars you give them to get your goods? And how many other indirect costs are you bearing because of it? Sometimes there are good reasons to spend locally.



Edit: Weird - this thing auto-merged my 2 posts.


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## Mercutio01 (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> Sometimes there are good reasons to spend locally.



And sometimes there are better reasons not to.


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2008)

redcard said:


> Did you ever think that eating MIGHT be more important than supporting a game store, and that when someone sees a $60 core set the thought that runs through their head is "Great.. I can get this AND still afford to fill my tank."




If it's actually a question of eating, why are you buying books for a premium hobby?

And if it's a question of paying some kid a wage (by the way, most of the FLGS in my area have mostly adults working for them, not just kids), that may mean less unemployment in my local area, which is fine by me. If I go through remote sources with my money, I'm just helping employment _over there_ somewhere, where ever there happens to be.

But, ultimately, why should it be unfair to put on you the downsteam effects of spending the money the way you spend your money? If Walmart bullies manufacturers into selling their products for unsustainable prices and manufacturing jobs are lost, what of it? Who cares if rivers are poisoned by the untreated waste runoff from factory pig farms in North Carolina? I got to save money, didn't I?


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## mlund (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> Sometimes there are good reasons to spend locally.




I agree completely with that, though we'd probably disagree on exactly which reasons are the good ones.

Convenience is a very good reason to spend locally.

Trying to make sure that I have a local haberdasher or cobbler because it keeps Main Street "vibrant" and "charming" on the other hand ... not so much for me, thanks.

I'm also a big fan of local businesses that are engaged in the community - sponsoring local teams and festivals, donating supplies to local K of C fundraisers, or having one of those "1% of your purchases to a local school of your choice" type promotions with their customer loyalty card.

Those things probably aren't going to make me pay $100 more for a stereo or a set of new tires, though. The $100 I save, however, is more likely to wind up spent locally.



billd91 said:


> Who cares if rivers are poisoned by the untreated waste runoff from factory pig farms in North Carolina? I got to save money, didn't I?




Hey, that factory pig farm is a producer, not a reseller. ;P

- Marty Lund


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> If Walmart bullies manufacturers into selling their products for unsustainable prices and manufacturing jobs are lost, what of it? Who cares if rivers are poisoned by the untreated waste runoff from factory pig farms in North Carolina? I got to save money, didn't I?



What does this have to do with whether you buy a (mass market, corporate) retail item from an independent, niche hobby retailer or off of Amazon again?


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2008)

mlund said:


> Hey, that factory pig farm is a producer, not a reseller. ;P
> 
> - Marty Lund




And he also may be producing as much waste as the city of New York without a single waste treatment plant (NY has something like 8).  

The point of it all is - there are repercussions that go with your spending habits that, in some cases, mean more than just saving a few bucks. I, for example, subscribe to the Pathfinder modules with Paizo rather than buy them at my FLGS because I want to send some money directly there. But I also shop regularly at my FLGS and am buying the back mods from before I subscribed there when I see them. I do this because Pegasus Games has been a rockin' FLGS since I first cut my teeth in the hobby over 25 years ago and inspired me with a lot more games than I originally knew about or found on the internet.
And I don't shop at Walmart.


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## mlund (Jul 1, 2008)

Mallus said:


> What does this have to do with whether you buy a (mass market, corporate) retail item from an independent, niche hobby retailer or off of Amazon again?




Nothing really, but you if you buy all the National Socialism arguments together (economic "justice," environmental "justice," social "justice") you get the bundle discount on your Totalitarian State. 

- Marty Lund


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## tenkar (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> But, ultimately, why should it be unfair to put on you the downsteam effects of spending the money the way you spend your money? If Walmart bullies manufacturers into selling their products for unsustainable prices and manufacturing jobs are lost, what of it? Who cares if rivers are poisoned by the untreated waste runoff from factory pig farms in North Carolina? I got to save money, didn't I?




I live in NYC and I've yet to find a FLGS in the area... there are LGSs, but they are far from friendly.  So if my gaming dollars help employ friendly people and /or support a company with better prices in another part of the country that's great in my opinion.

People seem to confuse FLGS with LGS... I would be willing to pay more at a FLGS as the "friendly" part is a service that is valuable to me.  I refuse to pay more just because they are local.


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## Creeping Death (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> Sure, they can stretch their dollar by sending their money out of their community to some remote massive parasite rather than to their neighbor parasite, who at least contributes to the community as their property taxes support the local schools and municipal services and who tries to maintain a vibrant downtown so people don't have to all drive out to the fringes to shop at the big box.
> 
> So, why do I want to just support the remote parasite who could care less for my local town's tax base and will probably ship off his phone support to some call center in another country so it can save even more money?




Sorry man, the remote parasite (walmart) in my city pays more taxes to my local city than most other businesses and all homeowners (property taxes) combined.  Another remote parasite (stouffers) pays less than walmart but still pays a lot.  That money goes to our schools and other community services.  So I fail to see the truth in your post.


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2008)

Creeping Death said:


> Sorry man, the remote parasite (walmart) in my city pays more taxes to my local city than most other businesses and all homeowners (property taxes) combined.  Another remote parasite (stouffers) pays less than walmart but still pays a lot.  That money goes to our schools and other community services.  So I fail to see the truth in your post.




If the reseller parasite is local and not remote, then it's not remote, is it?

Which doesn't mean there aren't negative repercussions of business shifting there. It just means they're not the _remote_ parasite I happened to mention in that particular post.


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

There seems to be some misunderstanding going around on all sides about the point of my prediction of the internet vs. small business post and the discount cap. But that's neither here nor there.

What I'm seeing all of us agreeing on is:
Regardless of political and economic views, we all agree that the LGS needs to diversify deeper into service and capitalize on convenience, and do whatever it can to bring down the costs of its products, even if at a loss.

So if we all agree on that, then there's no point to discussing economics any further. It serves no purpose and has therefore become irrelevant to the thread. The point is had. Let's get back to the topic about how best to make this model work.


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## Korgoth (Jul 1, 2008)

billd91 said:


> Sure, they can stretch their dollar by sending their money out of their community to some remote massive parasite rather than to their neighbor parasite, who at least contributes to the community as their property taxes support the local schools and municipal services and who tries to maintain a vibrant downtown so people don't have to all drive out to the fringes to shop at the big box.
> 
> So, why do I want to just support the remote parasite who could care less for my local town's tax base and will probably ship off his phone support to some call center in another country so it can save even more money?




I'll take either capitalism or socialism, but I'm not so keen on both at once. Either let me go with whoever provides the best price and service (which I can decide for myself by "shopping around"), or let's have socialism where the government just hands out "People's Glorious Democratic Revolutionary Orange Juice", "People's Glorious Democratic Revolutionary Microwave Pork Ribs" and "People's Glorious Democratic Revolutionary Fantasy Game" and I don't have to worry about affording anything because there's no such thing as affording or not affording it.

What I don't want is a monstrous hybrid where the business owners get to have socialism and the working stiffs are stuck with capitalism. That's the worst of both worlds.

I continue to chafe at the proposal that the government should essentially outlaw discounts which are too good because with efficient companies offering those discounts, the inefficient ones will have to close down. Guess what? That's how it's supposed to work. But certain folks want to see money taken from my pocket and handed to business owners who have an unviable business. No thanks. Or should I say, Solidarnosc!


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## Creeping Death (Jul 1, 2008)

Corjay said:


> There seems to be some misunderstanding going around on all sides about the point of my prediction of the internet vs. small business post and the discount cap. But that's neither here nor there.
> 
> What I'm seeing all of us agreeing on is:
> Regardless of political and economic views, we all agree that the LGS needs to diversify deeper into service and capitalize on convenience.
> ...




In my area, the FLGS (Dragon's Keep) is great.  They are very friendly.  Whenever I go in with my 5 and 7 year old, they usually give them free stuff.  My kids also get an allowance and if the price is close enough, the owner will sometimes discount the stuff enough so that my sons can afford it.  It's kept us going there for the last few years.

Do I buy from amazon?  Sure do.  Do I buy from Dragon's Keep?  YES.  Several years ago, there used to be a lot of creeps there.  Then the store came under new ownership, moved down the street to a place that was cleaner, brighter, and more accessible, they also branched out to board games and other stuff.

There seems to be tournaments and other stuff going on and once in a while they will have some comic book artist come in and work there.  It's really neat watching how he draws stuff.  They've even had some painting classes to teach you how to paint miniatures and terrain and stuff.

They do have 1 or 2 tables to play at on the first floor and some tables in the basement.  After the change in ownership the crowd has changed too, I see more women especially mothers and fathers there buying games or getting comic books for their kids.

You want success, make mom and dad feel comfortable.  Don't throw up the fantasy sci-fi porn posters on the wall.  A few years ago, I would not bring my kids to the store because of that, now, I have no problems.  Offer other things for those playing the games there (candy, snacks, soda, paper, etc.)

Oh, one big turn off from the previous owner, they would shrink wrap everything and then charge 25 cents to open the shrink wrap.  That 25 cents was waived if you bought the product.  I'm not going to pay any amount of money for the privilage of deciding if I want the product or not.  It was at this time that I usually went to B&N, borders, or amazon.

Throw out the people that are afraid of soap.  Nothing like walking into a store and being confronted by an invisible wall of stench.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Korgoth (Jul 1, 2008)

Corjay said:


> What I'm seeing all of us agreeing on is:
> Regardless of political and economic views, we all agree that the LGS needs to diversify deeper into service and capitalize on convenience, and do whatever it can to bring down the costs of its products, even if at a loss.




Sounds good to me. I'm all for seeing the LGS regain its relevance and viability (just not at my own expense... I don't have that kind of dough!).


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2008)

mlund said:


> Nothing really, but you if you buy all the National Socialism arguments...



Hey... whoa... I'm not accusing accusing anyone of being a socialist. That's verboten around here. Besides, as a lifelong East Coast liberal, it would be hypocritical... 

I _do_ make an effort to support local, independent businesses, the ones that offer me something for the price premium they charge, at least. I'm just not convinced I need to support a business solely by virtue of it being local and independent, even if it's in my hobby of choice.


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2008)

My FLGS has birthday and good grade discounts. So you tend to get people coming in with birthday money to spend. And you get parents willing to reward kids who keep up the studies as well as game.
I don't know how it helps the total bottom line there, but I sure tend to spend a big chunk of change on my birthday.


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> ISee re: Amazon and deep discounting loss leaders.



Speaking of Amazon... have you looked into partnering with Amazon and selling some of your stock through Amazon Marketplace? A lot of brick and mortal retailers seem to use it. Obviously you can't compete with them on the new 4e books, but on small press and out-of-print items?

Trying to lure customers away from online retailers is tilting at a contemporary windmill. But online retailers like Amazon offer some --seemingly, again, as I haven't looked into the specifics-- tools that can _help_ small independent businesses.


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## gamersgambit (Jul 1, 2008)

tenkar said:


> I live in NYC and I've yet to find a FLGS in the area... there are LGSs, but they are far from friendly. So if my gaming dollars help employ friendly people and /or support a company with better prices in another part of the country that's great in my opinion.
> 
> People seem to confuse FLGS with LGS... I would be willing to pay more at a FLGS as the "friendly" part is a service that is valuable to me. I refuse to pay more just because they are local.




One of the biggest compliments my store gets is in the form of a number of customers from New York City who take the bus (or drive) out to NJ (we're really only about a half-hour away from the city) rather than do business with Neutral Ground or King's Games, both of which are apparently sub-par in terms of friendliness and customer service and...well, everything.


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

Mallus said:


> Speaking of Amazon... have you looked into partnering with Amazon and selling some of your stock through Amazon Marketplace? A lot of brick and mortal retailers seem to use it. Obviously you can't compete with them on the new 4e books, but on small press and out-of-print items?
> 
> ...But online retailers like Amazon offer some --seemingly, again, as I haven't looked into the specifics-- tools that can _help_ small independent businesses.



Great idea. There may be lots of opportunities out there through such online assistance.


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## Mallus (Jul 1, 2008)

Corjay said:


> Great idea. There may be lots of opportunities out there through such online assistance.



Thanks. It was my wife's. We were talking about some of the issues raised in this thread over Vietnamese food last night.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 1, 2008)

Mallus said:


> Music piracy rose in direct response to the technology that enabled it. Also, explain the success of legal music download services like iTunes, which is thriving despite the effect of illegal music downloads.




The technology that enabled it was developed specifically as a counter to price gouging (perceived or actual) in the music industry.  Services like iTunes specifically lower prices, removing the perception of price gouging, and, by negative advertising related to file sharing, add a perceived value at a low cost.  Of course, if legislation passes that makes playing your iTunes at parties illegal (and that legislation is on the table here in Canada), then things might change.



> Which does not mean that all competitors exert equal or meaningful pressure. An independent game store does _nothing_ to Amazon's pricing on game books.




In your worldview, why does Amazon offer a deep discount, if not to get you to purchase from Amazon rather than elsewhere?


RC


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## Corjay (Jul 1, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> The technology that enabled it was developed specifically as a counter to price gouging (perceived or actual) in the music industry.  Services like iTunes specifically lower prices, removing the perception of price gouging, and, by negative advertising related to file sharing, add a perceived value at a low cost.  Of course, if legislation passes that makes playing your iTunes at parties illegal (and that legislation is on the table here in Canada), then things might change.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Again, keep it on topic. This is so far off topic as not to be relevant to this thread at all. I would prefer that this thread stay open before a mod changes the status. If you wish to continue to discuss that issue, please fork it.


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## Silver Moon (Jul 2, 2008)

Interesting thread, I've read all eight pages and there is a key point that has been hinted at but not directly stated - We Are In An Economic Recession! 

During the last recession in the early 1990's there were four FLGS in the Boston area (where I lived at that time) that closed due to the economy.    The same thing is happening now, because when it costs an extra $ 30 a week for gasoline and an extra $ 20 a week for food that's $ 50 which isn't going to be spent at the FLGS, no matter how much the customers might like the place.  

My upstairs tenant manages a Comic Book/Sports Cards/Gaming/Used Paperpack store, and right now they are hurting big time due to the economy.   They've had to cut back on personnel and are buying stock much more thinner and cautiously these days in hopes of getting through this economic downturn.    

My friend's store will survive, as you probably will too Gamersgambit, because of a diversified product line and willingness by the owners to make adjustments.   But the smaller stores with narrower lines won't and that is the sad reality.  They'll go under not because of Internet Sales or Big Box Bookstores, but because they are in a "Nice to Have" business rather than a "Have to Have" business, which during an extended economic slump can't be sustained.


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## tenkar (Jul 2, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> One of the biggest compliments my store gets is in the form of a number of customers from New York City who take the bus (or drive) out to NJ (we're really only about a half-hour away from the city) rather than do business with Neutral Ground or King's Games, both of which are apparently sub-par in terms of friendliness and customer service and...well, everything.




I might have to make that trip one day.  

You left out the Complete Strategist... where old games go to die... stuff that was old and out of print 25 years ago can still be found... cramped, nasty place with no "friendly" at all.  Oh, and no place to game.


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## gamersgambit (Jul 2, 2008)

Two things.

Re: Amazon marketplace.

To be honest, this fills me with more than a little trepidation, but perhaps it's trepidation from ignorance.

My thoughts are, I would have to link to it from my website.  I don't know what the fees are for Amazon Marketplace (AM), or how, exactly, it works, but from a "capturing my own business" point of view, I envision this as sorta shooting myself in the foot.  Potential Customer (PC) looks me up online, clicks on amazon link, buys from there instead of coming to my store.  I have overhead on my store.  The space I'm devoting to the product in the store doesn't get paid for by the AM revenues, as I have to discount my stuff on AM very deeply to compete, take all the time involved in shipping and other maintenance concerns and putting all that stuff online (one of the reasons I don't have an online store is a lack of time and employees to do so),  worry about shipping and all of the myriad other things that come with it.

Re: Recession

This is another one built, perhaps, on ignorance.

It's my belief that the recession (let's assume it's here for the nonce and eschew debate on whether or not it is a recession, downturn, or what have you) will have less impact on my product lines than other possible retail stores.  Rationale:  While RPG books can be bought cheaper online, shipping costs are likely to go up.  That, however, is not gonna save me.  However, the other things in my store such as used video games, boardgames, and to a lesser extent CCGs represent entertainment options that are more reasonably priced and more durable than other entertainment choices (such as new video games and movies).  Thus, operating on the assumption that, short of starvation considerations, people in depressed economies prefer to have entertainment in their lives (if for no other reason than to distract them from miserable economic woes), they'll turn to less-expensive alternatives to going out for their entertainment, such as staying home and...playing games.

Thoughts?


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## Mallus (Jul 2, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> My thoughts are, I would have to link to it from my website.  I don't know what the fees are for Amazon Marketplace (AM), or how, exactly, it works, but from a "capturing my own business" point of view, I envision this as sorta shooting myself in the foot.  Potential Customer (PC) looks me up online, clicks on amazon link, buys from there instead of coming to my store.



Scott, you've basically it got backwards. You're making the products you sell available on Amazon (there's no linking to Amazon from your site). It's similar to Half.com.

You place the items you want to sell on Amazon's Marketplace, when an Amazon shopper searches for that particular item, your item comes up. Obviously, you can't compete with items Amazon sells directly at a deep discount, however the Marketplace is full of product Amazon itself doesn't carry, so your only competition would be other small retailers and individual sellers selling _through_ Amazon. In return, Amazon gets a commission and a transaction fee per sale. 

Is this clearer? 

Not taking advantage of Amazon Marketplace (or Half/Ebay) seems more like shooting yourself in the foot to me. Marketplace gives you access to Amazon's enormous customer base.  



> It's my belief that the recession (let's assume it's here for the nonce and eschew debate on whether or not it is a recession, downturn, or what have you) will have less impact on my product lines than other possible retail stores.



It think what recession-proofing gaming stores enjoy comes primarily from the fact that a significant number of the customers are collectors/completists with high salaries in healthy fields.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 2, 2008)

Corjay said:


> Again, keep it on topic. This is so far off topic as not to be relevant to this thread at all.




I disagree.  The OP speaks directly to Amazon's marketing techniques, and an understanding of basic economics is required to discuss the topic.  When claims are made that fly in the face of economic theory, then those claims need to be rebutted.



> I would prefer that this thread stay open before a mod changes the status. If you wish to continue to discuss that issue, please fork it.




Ah, the well known "No economics" rule of EN World.

I let my main point stand, then, and can be forked if desired:  The deep discounts offered by online retailers will only exist so long as there is a strong incentive for them to exist, and that strong incentive at this time comes in the form of being able to pick up a book _*right now*_ at a brick & mortar store.


RC


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## Mallus (Jul 2, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> ...and an understanding of basic economics is required to discuss the topic.  When claims are made that fly in the face of economic theory, then those claims need to be rebutted.



Exactly. 



> The deep discounts offered by online retailers will only exist so long as there is a strong incentive for them to exist, and that strong incentive at this time comes in the form of being able to pick up a book _*right now*_ at a brick & mortar store.



Really? So Half.com doesn't exert any price pressure on Amazon? 

Let me ask you a simple question RC: if small, independent gaming stores are so valuable in keeping Amazon's prices for game books low, why haven't Amazon's prices for those items _risen_ as the FSLG's have died off? Is Amazon waiting for the very last local game store to go under before it dances on it's grave, let's out of whoop, and then radically increases it's prices on gaming books? (I referred to this upthread as a belief in "Doctor Doom economics") 

Borders, B&N and other chain retailers that sell gaming materials might pressure the big online retailers, but a relative handful of specialty shops?

Put another way, just because two businesses might sell the same product, it doesn't automatically make them competitors (in a meaningful sense of the word). Size and market penetration come into play. Kids selling bottled water at a busy intersection aren't helping keep the price of that same bottle of water low at the local Walmart. Neither are the kids w/the lemonade stand preventing an explosive rise in the price of lemonade.

RC, obviously you're correct to say competition keeps prices down, but by failing to acknowledge the difference between significant and insignificant competitors, you render that moot.

P.S. Even though Corjay is right that this is off-topic... music piracy was made possible by the spread of consumer broadband access. That's the technology I was talking about, not file-sharing clients. And broadband Internet providers like Comcast did *not* develop their services in response to high CD prices so that their customers could thieve music...


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## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

Mallus said:


> It think what recession-proofing gaming stores enjoy comes primarily from the fact that a significant number of the customers are collectors/completists with high salaries in healthy fields.



I think gamersgambit was actually on the money in his point about entertainment getting the major money during a recession. The best and most classic example is the depression era. Despite the depression, movies were in full swing. We also have a new example. We are now eight years into this recession and massive budget movies are now a machine like never before. Collectors are actually least concerned with their collections during a recession. If Scott wants to survive, he's going to need to cater to the entertainment-seeking crowd.



Raven Crowking said:


> I disagree. The OP speaks directly to Amazon's marketing techniques, and an understanding of basic economics is required to discuss the topic. When claims are made that fly in the face of economic theory, then those claims need to be rebutted.



There are two major economic views in capitalism: liberal and conservative. That's where we get the terms. Just because those two are practically mutually exclusive does not mean that one of them "flies in the face of economic theory". There are many economic theories based on those two views (In fact, as many theories as there are people thinking about them). Which one of those many economic theories are you saying that these things "fly in the face of"? Which politician's theory? Which economist's theory? Which capitalist's, socialist's, or fascist's theory?


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## fuzzlewump (Jul 2, 2008)

Most I have been to smell funny. And, if they ask their customers to shower, their market is decimated.


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## Turjan (Jul 2, 2008)

Mallus said:


> Let me ask you a simple question RC: if small, independent gaming stores are so valuable in keeping Amazon's prices for game books low, why haven't Amazon's prices for those items _risen_ as the FSLG's have died off? Is Amazon waiting for the very last local game store to go under before it dances on it's grave, let's out of whoop, and then radically increases it's prices on gaming books? (I referred to this upthread as a belief in "Doctor Doom economics")
> 
> Borders, B&N and other chain retailers that sell gaming materials might pressure the big online retailers, but a relative handful of specialty shops?



The prices of games you only get at FLGS have risen on amazon. Most smaller games sell for cover price there. It's only the game books that you get at Borders of Barnes&Noble where you get your discounts at amazon.


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Sorry, but you're just inviting more corrections to misstatements about economics when you make politically biased statements like this:



Corjay said:


> We are now eight years into this recession




This is factually incorrect. You can only even remotely posit this statement being true is when you redefine the academic and literal meaning of "recession" into politically biased Newspeak. The NBER is pretty much the academic authority on this sort of thing. We are not in the midst of a recession that started in 2000, regardless of how politically advantageous such a counter-factual narrative might be to some parties.

"Recession," is not interchangeable with "I'm not happy about the way the economy is playing out."



> There are two major economic views in capitalism: liberal and conservative. That's where we get the terms.



Considering the distinction between political attitudes towards capitalism vs. scientific theories of economics, I'd say that's factually and historically incorrect. More accurately, there are two major schools of *political* thought as it relates to capitalism, labeled (often times mistakenly so) as "liberal" and "conservative" in the United States (once you get out of the U.S. those words have a different meaning in some areas).

Nevermind the fact that "economic Liberalism" and "political policies of so-called 'liberals' as they pertain to economic policy" are ridiculously at odds with one another.

Most of the controversial economic theories going around are *socio-political* theories about how to *influence* markets, rather than the more grounded scientific fundamentals of economics. Just because everyone and their dog has an "economic theory" doesn't mean those theories are equally valid as say - fundamentals of supply and demand, price points, and elasticity.

Sticking to the practical and statistical science of economics rather than the politically charged rhetoric addressing the merits and flaws of capitalism would probably be best. 

- Marty Lund


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## Mallus (Jul 2, 2008)

Turjan said:


> The prices of games you only get at FLGS have risen on amazon. Most smaller games sell for cover price there.



I'd bet most of those items aren't being sold by Amazon directly and are coming from FLGS's though Amazon Marketplace. Or is that wrong?


----------



## Raven Crowking (Jul 2, 2008)

Turjan said:


> The prices of games you only get at FLGS have risen on amazon. Most smaller games sell for cover price there. It's only the game books that you get at Borders of Barnes&Noble where you get your discounts at amazon.




Exactly.  

It is the idea that Amazon (or anyone) will sell for less _*unless they gain a direct and tangible benefit from doing so*_ that flies in the face of economic theory.

Brick & Mortar retailers offer only two things that online retailers do not:  the ability to browse, and the ability to pick up a book _*now*_.  Online retailers have less overhead, but do not offer you a discount because they have less overhead.  Like B&M retailers, online retailers will sell for the highest price that they think the market will bear....less overhead merely means more profit.  If all retailers for a given product are online, it is in the best interests of them all to incrementally raise their prices to the status quo.  This is, after all, exactly what happens with B&M retailers.

Conservative or liberal economic policies address whether this should be seen as a problem, and, if seen as a problem, what we should do about it.  They don't deny the basic economic realities of the situation.  (There are a few exceptions to this, of course, as in all things.)

Please note that, in past discussions on the same topic, several EN Worlders admitted to browsing in the B&M, and then purchasing online....effectively gaining the vaule of both models.  It should be relatively obvious that this isn't a sustainable practice.  Indeed, we already see many publishers reacting to this, creating pdfs that enable a limited form of online "browsing".  

We, as gamers, have a vested interest in whether or not there will be B&M stores.  If we don't care about browsing, about picking up a new book today, or being able to get a replacement book that got damaged earlier today for the game tonight, then we shouldn't care so much about the B&M stores.  These are the things that, ultimately, they are best at providing.



RC


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## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

mlund said:


> Sorry, but you're just inviting more corrections to misstatements about economics when you make politically biased statements like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is exactly why economics should not be a part of this discussion. Instead of taking my point home, the elitists want to pick at the inexactness of any statement. Pecking like this only irritates. It serves no purpose.


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## Umbran (Jul 2, 2008)

Folks,

It is at this point that I must remind you that real-world politics are not an acceptable topic of discussion for these boards.  That's a matter of general policy here: we find it creates too many arguments.  I understand it may hamstring your discussion, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave that branch of the discussion behind.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 2, 2008)

deleted


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Corjay said:


> This is exactly why economics should not be a part of this discussion.




No, it is exactly why people need to step back and separate political theory from basic economics. If one has a problem restraining the urge to interject "fairness" and political rhetoric into a discussion involving basic economic realities then it is going to be a sore spot.

Not every economic discussion needs be a political one. Not every scientific definition need be discarded or devalued for the sake of cheap political rhetoric either. And certainly no one's unfaithfulness to the facts was ever excused by calling his critics "elitists."

- Marty Lund


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## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

I once again suggest the whole economic theme be dropped. As this thread has proven, it will invariably lead to politics, as some ideas must be backed by law and others are dependent entirely upon one's political view. One clearly cannot be had without the other.

The purpose of this thread isn't to discuss the whys and wherefores of how LGS are in the position they're in, but how they can survive. Elude to an economic situation, but please don't go into it in detail, as it serves no purpose but diverting and subverting the topic.


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## Mallus (Jul 2, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> Exactly.



So are you conceding that large chain stores are Amazon's real competitors, not the penny-ante independent gaming stores? Because that's what I get from Turjan's post.



> It is the idea that Amazon (or anyone) will sell for less _*unless they gain a direct and tangible benefit from doing so*_ that flies in the face of economic theory.



No-one is debating that RC, except you with yourself. 



> Brick & Mortar retailers offer only two things that online retailers do not:  the ability to browse, and the ability to pick up a book _*now*_.



That doesn't change the fact that some brick&mortar stores (ie the small, independent one) are insignificant competitors. They're like lemonade stands. 



> Please note that, in past discussions on the same topic, several EN Worlders admitted to browsing in the B&M, and then purchasing online....effectively gaining the vaule of both models.  It should be relatively obvious that this isn't a sustainable practice.



Right you are. Certain kinds of small, independent specialty stores probably aren't sustainable. Especially if they sell merchandise widely available from other retailers at lower cost. 



> We, as gamers, have a vested interest in whether or not there will be B&M stores.



Yes, but not all of them. 

Am I getting through?


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## Korgoth (Jul 2, 2008)

Umbran said:


> Folks,
> 
> It is at this point that I must remind you that real-world politics are not an acceptable topic of discussion for these boards.  That's a matter of general policy here: we find it creates too many arguments.  I understand it may hamstring your discussion, but I'm going to have to ask you to leave that branch of the discussion behind.




Is it OK to ask for a clarification? What I'm wondering is whether economics (which this discussion seems like it has to include, since it's about the economic status of the LGS) can be discussed and defined as long as political statements/opinions are left out? For example, making a point about economic Liberalism which is not a political position and to which most American "conservatives" and many "liberals" subscribe.

Just trying to get a handle on what is or is not allowed before I post anything else.


----------



## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Is it OK to ask for a clarification? What I'm wondering is whether economics (which this discussion seems like it has to include, since it's about the economic status of the LGS) can be discussed and defined as long as political statements/opinions are left out? For example, making a point about economic Liberalism which is not a political position and to which most American "conservatives" and many "liberals" subscribe.
> 
> Just trying to get a handle on what is or is not allowed before I post anything else.



Those terms were challenged by mlund and I believe they are synonymous with and inseparable from political issues.


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## Korgoth (Jul 2, 2008)

Corjay said:


> Those terms were challenged by mlund and I believe they are inseparable from political issues.




I wasn't asking you, ace. 

Let's let the Mods make the big decisions.


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Corjay said:


> Those terms were challenged by mlund and I believe they are inseparable from political issues.




I think you've already made it clear what you believe.

He's asking the moderator, not you.

Some people can't resist the urge to interject politics into economics - decrying or cheer-leading perceived Capitalism or Statism at every opportunity. That's a personal problem one has to deal with, not a requirement to change the board rules to keep one happy.

- Marty Lund


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## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

Correction, guys. I was speaking on the terms Korgoth quoted.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 2, 2008)

Mallus said:


> I'd bet most of those items aren't being sold by Amazon directly and are coming from FLGS's though Amazon Marketplace. Or is that wrong?





Which begs the question: if this is the case, why isn't amazon selling the item directly?


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## jgerman (Jul 2, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> Which begs the question: if this is the case, why isn't amazon selling the item directly?





Amazon has set themselves up as the middleman. It's easier than selling directly and if it makes sense down the road they can always start selling directly as well. From Amazon's standpoint the marketplace is a gold mine, they're getting sales data on a huge number of markets, data that can be used to decide where they expand.


By the way, "begging the question" is a logical fallacy, you've used the phrase incorrectly.


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## Mallus (Jul 2, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> Which begs the question: if this is the case, why isn't amazon selling the item directly?



I would imagine because it's more profitable for them to receive a small commission on the Marketplace sales of those items than to sell them directly? Also, Marketplace is where Amazon offers used merchandise from resellers.  

Marketplace adds a lot of value Amazon. It's widens their stock at negative cost to them. And even if Marketplace mere helps get people in the virtual door, it's still an asset.


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> Which begs the question: if this is the case, why isn't amazon selling the item directly?




The overhead involved with Inventory, in all likelihood. That's pretty much the reason why no company can get into the "selling every product in the world at the lowest possible price" game. Many products just sit around too long and have wild shifts in demand.

Look what happened when Amazon couldn't deliver enough 4th Ed stock on time: people canceled their orders and bought elsewhere.

Now compare this to the company that made 4 million Atari ET Game cartridges and only sold 1.5 million ever, or that local Magic shop that *still* can't sell their back-stock of Homelands.

Amazon needs to move a lot of volume without having a lot of stale inventory to manage or exposing themselves to the risk of a massive over-stock. So they'll be all over products with reliable sales and inelastic demand, and they'll avoid products with more nebulous sales trends and more niche markets. Basically, they cherry-pick the cash-cows that involve the least work, the least support, and the least turn-around time.

- Marty Lund


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## Mallus (Jul 2, 2008)

jgerman said:


> ...they're getting sales data on a huge number of markets, data that can be used to decide where they expand.



Right. Can't forget this.


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## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

jgerman said:


> Amazon has set themselves up as the middleman. It's easier than selling directly and if it makes sense down the road they can always start selling directly as well. From Amazon's standpoint the marketplace is a gold mine, they're getting sales data on a huge number of markets, data that can be used to decide where they expand.
> 
> 
> By the way, "begging the question" is a logical fallacy, you've used the phrase incorrectly.



"Begging the question" is a term applied to two different things in logic:

1) Circular reasoning (undoubtedly what you're referring to, more specifically begging someone to accept the question)
2) An unaddressed, but implied question (from which the term originates)


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 2, 2008)

Then what incentives is amazon giving companies like WotC that allows them to sell these books at such reduced rates that they can't or won't give o these other retailers?


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## jgerman (Jul 2, 2008)

Corjay said:


> "Begging the question" is a term applied to two different things in logic:
> 
> 1) Circular reasoning (undoubtedly what you're referring to, more specifically begging someone to accept the question)
> 2) An unaddressed, but implied question (from which the term originates)




No. The term originates from the logical fallacy. Nor is your parenthezied description in "1" quite correct either, though it's close. 

Number "2" is the colloquial usage originating from people hearing the correct version used and misunderstanding it due to the word "beg". It's not fairly commonplace to use the incorrect version, but it is still incorrect.

This isn't the forum for this argument though, so I'll stop there. I regret pointing out in the first place, knowing the reaction it would produce.


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> Then what incentives is amazon giving companies like WotC that allows them to sell these books at such reduced rates that they can't or won't give o these other retailers?




Your question is based on a faulty premise: Wizards of the Coast doesn't "allow" Amazon to sell their books. Wizards of the Coast produces books that then enter the supply chain. They don't sell them to Amazon at one price and LGS's at another.

Most local retailers buy their stock from Distributors, who bought supply from other Distributors or Wholesalers, and so on up-chain. Each business in the chain marks up the price to cover expenses, profits, and taxes.

Mass-volume businesses like Amazon often get their stock directly from Manufacturers or Wholesalers - cutting their supply chain sharply. This reduces the amount of overhead involved in the process, the amount of points of taxation, and the number of people taking a profit out of the deal. On top of that, mass purchases generally reduce costs due to Economies of Scale.

If nothing else, understand this to be true: it costs much more to get 10 books each to 30 businesses than it does to get 300 books to a single business.

- Marty Lund


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 2, 2008)

mlund said:


> Your question is based on a faulty premise: Wizards of the Coast doesn't "allow" Amazon to sell their books. Wizards of the Coast produces books that then enter the supply chain. They don't sell them to Amazon at one price and LGS's at another.





You _*absolutely sure*_ about this?  I can tell you as a fact that it is normal practice to reduce prices based upon volume purchase, and your average B&M doesn't have the same volume as Amazon.  I would be willing to bet that Amazon purchases at a very, very large discount from your B&M storefront (as you yourself point out).  WotC is more than willing to enter into direct sales arrangements with any store that will agree to a minimum monthly purchase; I imagine Amazon more than qualifies.

BTW, Korgoth, nice post earlier, and I am also waiting for a mod response.  I deleted my last post because I am uncertain how one can (intelligently) discuss the economic problems facing retailers without discussing economics.

@Mallus:  As soon as we have a mod response about what we are allowed to discuss re: economics, I'll be happy to answer you.  

RC


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## Mallus (Jul 2, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> @Mallus:  As soon as we have a mod response about what we are allowed to discuss re: economics, I'll be happy to answer you.



I have to admit, you've piqued my curiosity...


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## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

jgerman said:


> No. The term originates from the logical fallacy. Nor is your parenthezied description in "1" quite correct either, though it's close.
> 
> Number "2" is the colloquial usage originating from people hearing the correct version used and misunderstanding it due to the word "beg". It's not fairly commonplace to use the incorrect version, but it is still incorrect.
> 
> This isn't the forum for this argument though, so I'll stop there. I regret pointing out in the first place, knowing the reaction it would produce.



Dude. Step into Logic by Patrick J. Hurley. That is relying on the original use of the term in logic, which fits with my #2, but which shows a more purposeful intent. Also known psychologically as avoidance. The social term existed before the logic term. It is in our language not as a result of philosophy, but as a result of common idiom. Hurley states: "Begging the question occurs when an arguer uses some form of phraseology that tends to conceal the questionably true character of a key premise." I stated the social occurrence in #2, but the logic term by Hurley is derived from it, not visa versa. Logic books list it as a fallacy as long as it meets the intent of the arguer to avoid the question. However, An Introduction to Reasoning by Toulmin, Rieke, and Janik explains it as "when we _make a claim and then argue on its behalf by advancing "grounds" whose meaning is simply equivelant to that of the original claim._" (Italics theirs.) They then show three different logical fallacies that fall into that blanket (but don't give the names as I do here): Assertus Argumentum, Popularis Argumenum, and Circular Reasoning. Just because I stated loosely off the top of my head doesn't mean I was wrong. Just incomplete. Is this complete enough for you? I have more.

The fact is, it is a common term, and therefore is NOT being misused, as common use determines its usage. To correct people every time they use it in a socially acceptable way is to show snobbish elitism to a degree that is not socially acceptable.

Storyteller01: you used the term in an acceptable way. Ignore anyone that tells you otherwise.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 2, 2008)

mlund said:


> Your question is based on a faulty premise: Wizards of the Coast doesn't "allow" Amazon to sell their books. Wizards of the Coast produces books that then enter the supply chain. They don't sell them to Amazon at one price and LGS's at another.





Then why is it that amazon can afford a 50% discount AND ignoring release dates when those buying from distributors cannot?


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Raven Crowking said:


> You _*absolutely sure*_ about this?  I can tell you as a fact that it is normal practice to reduce prices based upon volume purchase, and your average B&M doesn't have the same volume as Amazon.




I don't think that was the issue the post I was replying to addressed. He was talking about one company (Amazon) giving another company (Wizards) some sort of "incentive" to command a unique price-point for their purchases. My point is, there is a not a unique price-point for Amazon created by a scheme of kick-backs and golf-course outings that creates an "Amazon price" and a "not Amazon price."

There's a 100,000 unit price a 10,000 unit price, a 1,000 unit price, etc. including variants like: "100,000 units of [D&D Product], 10,000 units of [Other, non-D&D WotC Product]."

None of those prices are linked to the customer's identity beyond the volume of units they purchase from the vendor / manufacturer.

The LGS is allowed to buy the "Amazon lot" at the "Amazon price." It just isn't in the LGS's best interests to do so. They want a smaller lot so they pay the smaller lot price. If Amazon wants a smaller lot, they ALSO pay the smaller lot price.

This ties back into the point I made about why Amazon doesn't selling every product they can get their hands on at a 40%. If they can't clear the inventory fast and in large volume they can't by large lots at large lot prices they can't sell at such a steep discount compared to a regular retailer (who has the convenience of immediate access to stock for the customer).

It's been a while since I was behind the counter dealing with WotC products coming into an LGS. I guess back then WotC products were still moving through distributors and wholesalers before they hit the FLGS. I take it Wizards is doing a lot more direct sales to retailers, now?



Storyteller01 said:


> Then why is it that amazon can afford a 50% discount AND ignoring release dates when those buying from distributors cannot?




I think you're confusing Buy.com and Amazon.com, if I recall the incident correctly.

I've already illustrated why a company buying in huge lots and avoiding the Distributor (Amazon) can feasibly sell at a much lower price them someone who is buying small lots from a Distributor (LGS).

You LGS could *technically* sell at the same price as Amazon, but he'd lose his shirt unless he bought and sold the same *volume* as Amazon.

The old Supply Chain model (which may not apply to some WotC products anymore, apparently) was that one business bought a giant lot (Wholesaler) at the huge lot price. He broke it down into smaller lots for more regional companies and sold it at a mark-up to cover his business's expenses and profits. Those regional businesses (Distributors) in turn broke those lots down into smaller lots for either more narrow Distributors or Retailers, marking it up again to make their profit. Finally the Retailer takes those lots and breaks them down into individual items for sale, marking it up again to make their profit. Have you ever been a preferred customer at your FLGS? Brining in a significant amount of reliable business to my FLGS gets me a discount on what I buy from my Retailer.

Here's a question for you: How much revenue do you think Wizards of the Coast sees, on average, from each book with an MSRP of $30 that they manage to sell?

- Marty Lund


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## jgerman (Jul 2, 2008)

Corjay said:


> Dude. Step into Logic by Patrick J. Hurley. That is relying on the original use of the term in logic, which fits with my #2, but which shows a more purposeful intent. Also known psychologically as avoidance. The social term existed before the logic term. It is in our language not as a result of philosophy, but as a result of common idiom. Hurley states: "Begging the question occurs when an arguer uses some form of phraseology that tends to conceal the questionably true character of a key premise." I stated the social occurrence in #2, but the logic term by Hurley is derived from it, not visa versa. Logic books list it as a fallacy as long as it meets the intent of the arguer to avoid the question. However, An Introduction to Reasoning by Toulmin, Rieke, and Janik explains it as "when we _make a claim and then argue on its behalf by advancing "grounds" whose meaning is simply equivelant to that of the original claim._" (Italics theirs.) They then show three different logical fallacies that fall into that blanket (but don't give the names as I do here): Assertus Argumentum, Popularis Argumenum, and Circular Reasoning. Just because I stated loosely off the top of my head doesn't mean I was wrong. Just incomplete. Is this complete enough for you? I have more.




Edit: Nevermind, those that misuse the term will defend it to the end ... it's not worth my time. Have a nice day.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 2, 2008)

Accepting greater bulk sales, even at a lower price than those given to distributiors, is an incentive. Especially if they promise to purchase under the same terms with furture products.



mlund said:


> I think you're confusing Buy.com and Amazon.com, if I recall the incident correctly.




No, I'm not. We had customers coming in bragging about receiving their copies from amazon early. When we decided to match amazons discount to sell the books faster, we discovered a discount from retail of over 50%.


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> Accepting a lower price for bulk sales is an incentive, especially if they promise to purchase under the same terms with furture products.




If that's what you mean by "incentive" then sure. I thought you meant outside of the normal transaction being offered to facilitate getting what you want: bribes, kick-backs, bonuses, stock-options, etc.

I think the term "incentive" actually goes the other way here. Lower prices are incentive that *Wizards of the Coast* offers to buyers to get them to buy early, often, and in large quantities.

Volume, timing, and credit-worthiness are all legitimate reasons why one purchaser may get a better price-per-unit than another one. For example, many LGS's I know offer "pre-order" discounts on boxed product for reliable customers and people who are willing to pay in advance. (Cash or reliable credit earlier > the same money later.)

There are other sorts of purchasing incentives too. Sometimes I go looking for a comic on a Thursday but find the shop sold out of it before I got there. However, the guys with "pull boxes" stroll in on a Saturday and get their copy.

Heck, even businesses that work as both Distributors and Retailers will give me (a consumer) a different price than a store owner (mass buyer). They'll even let the store purchase on account and settle up at the end of the month but they'd be fools to do that with random consumers.



> No, I'm not. We had customers coming in bragging about receiving their copies from amazon early. When we decided to match amazons discount to sell the books faster, we discovered a discount from retail of over 50%.



I haven't seen any early deliveries from Amazon, only Buy.com. I've seen no indication that Wizards condones the breaking of the street date on their product by Amazon or any other vendor.

- Marty Lund


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## redcard (Jul 2, 2008)

Amazon Canada did that, I believe..  but not so much.  I've heard more cases of Game stores breaking street date than Amazon cases, though.  And more cases of Waldenbooks/B&N/Borders than that.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 2, 2008)

mlund said:


> I think the term "incentive" actually goes the other way here. Lower prices are incentive that *Wizards of the Coast* offers to buyers to get them to buy early, often, and in large quantities.
> 
> Volume, timing, and credit-worthiness are all legitimate reasons why one purchaser may get a better price-per-unit than another one. For example, many LGS's I know offer "pre-order" discounts on boxed product for reliable customers and people who are willing to pay in advance. (Cash or reliable credit earlier > the same money later.)




Then why aren't all distributors or LGS's offered this same incentive?



> I haven't seen any early deliveries from Amazon, only Buy.com. I've seen no indication that Wizards condones the breaking of the street date on their product by Amazon or any other vendor.
> 
> - Marty Lund





By doing nothing to curtail the releases in Amazon or B&N, they have effectively condoned their actions. Wizard's won't do anything because whatever incestive has been established is batter than what they get from LGS's. It's unfortunate, but this is what happens when things get copied or spread for free on the internet. This and other actions taken may be indicative of resentment towards its customers. The gaming comunity, especially D&D, have not been great customers. We are labeled by some distributors as being some of the cheapest folks in the industry.

It's unfortunate. These actions will eventually kill the game.


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## redcard (Jul 2, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> TBy doing nothing to curtail the releases in Amazon or B&N, they have effectively condoned their actions.




How do you know they've done nothing?


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 2, 2008)

redcard said:


> How do you know they've done nothing?




We'd have heard about it by now. Amazon or B&N seeing possible legal action from wizards would be industry news.

They won't do anything. Much as we want to believe otherwise, wizards sn't big enough to go after these companies. They can't afford to.


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## gamersgambit (Jul 2, 2008)

A few comments:

First, the economic theory thread has been played out.  Can we (if we're going to discuss economic theory) argue it in another thread aside from the one I started, please?

Second:

Wizards has a pretty lousy policy when it comes to direct sales with LGSes: COD or credit card -only-.  They don't offer terms.  Their shipping costs a bunch (and for an east coast store, takes 4 days to arrive).

They also screwed up their tier program, which I can go into if you really care about that.

I don't know what discounts they offer for bulk sales to people like Amazon.  I don't really have a problem with them offering bulk sales discounts--if they didn't, I wouldn't be able to buy from my distributors at the same cost that Wizards charges only with terms (which I do to avoid COD).


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## mlund (Jul 2, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> Then why aren't all distributors or LGS's offered this same incentive?




They *are*. Read above to see examples of such.

You don't get the price incentive attached to buying 100,000 units because you don't buy 100,000 units.

It's really that simple.



> By doing nothing to curtail the releases in Amazon or B&N, they have effectively condoned their actions.




You've provided *zero* evidence that this is the case. 

My limited experience with contracts indicates that WotC / Hasbro as well as Amazon would have to complete idiots not to have penalties and reparations clauses in their contracts for things like this. They'd also have to be idiots to speak in public as to the details of those clauses.



> This and other actions taken may be indicative of resentment towards its customers.




It could be *taken* that way, sure. You can read unsubstantiated assumptions into just about anything if you try hard enough.

- Marty Lund


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## Corjay (Jul 2, 2008)

mlund said:


> My limited experience with contracts indicates that WotC / Hasbro as well as Amazon would have to complete idiots not to have penalties and reparations clauses in their contracts for things like this. They'd also have to be idiots to speak in public as to the details of those clauses.



That comes down to power. Who has greater power over the other? In this case, Amazon has the power. WOTC can't afford to lose their business, which means Amazon can pretty much do whatever the hell it wants to. Sell early, force cost decreases, etc. Now if it were just a small time distributer, WOTC would simply say "you can do it as we ask you to, or we can refuse business with you." In that case, WOTC has the power, because the small distributer needs their business.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 2, 2008)

mlund said:


> They *are*. Read above to see examples of such.
> 
> You don't get the price incentive attached to buying 100,000 units because you don't buy 100,000 units.
> 
> It's really that simple.




And how many distributors or LGS's can buy that many?




> You've provided *zero* evidence that this is the case.
> 
> My limited experience with contracts indicates that WotC / Hasbro as well as Amazon would have to complete idiots not to have penalties and reparations clauses in their contracts for things like this. They'd also have to be idiots to speak in public as to the details of those clauses.




They don't need to. People talk, even when clauses have been established. It's the human factor, and very hard to negate. Look to the leak of both GW and WotC materials for examples. 

You would also see effects in both business, as neither would continue their standard business until this has been resolved. WotC is still sending books, and Amazon is still selling them at reduced rates.




> It could be *taken* that way, sure. You can read unsubstantiated assumptions into just about anything if you try hard enough.
> 
> - Marty Lund




The future will tell.


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## racoffin (Jul 2, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> A few comments:
> 
> First, the economic theory thread has been played out.  Can we (if we're going to discuss economic theory) argue it in another thread aside from the one I started, please?




Amen. The thread was how to get people interested in their local gaming stores (and Scott's in particular). Quibbling back and forth about economic theory could probably be done elsewhere. Might help to cool things off as well.


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## mlund (Jul 3, 2008)

Corjay said:


> That comes down to power. Who has greater power over the other? In this case, Amazon has the power. WOTC can't afford to lose their business, which means Amazon can pretty much do whatever the hell it wants to. Sell early, force cost decreases, etc. Now if it were just a small time distributer, WOTC would simply say "you can do it as we ask you to, or we can refuse business with you." In that case, WOTC has the power, because the small distributer needs their business.




I think that's an awful lot of assumptions right there with very little substantiation.

I don't think Amazon can "do whatever they want," nor do I think "Wizards of the Coast can't afford to lose their business." Otherwise Amazon would've had Wizards stop selling to its competitors already. If Amazon dropped off the face of the world tomorrow, or Wizards just didn't do business with them anymore, I'm pretty confident that Amazon's competitors (Buy.com, Barnes & Noble.com) would pick up their volume. It might cost a little bit of money, but Wizards isn't Amazon's hostage by any stretch of the imagination. If they damage the D&D, WotC, or Hasbro brands it is certainly in Wizard's power and best interests to cut them loose.



Storyteller01 said:


> And how many distributors or LGS's can buy that many?




I'd assume no LGS can afford to buy that many. They wouldn't be very Local if they moved 100,000 units. Plenty of wholesalers and rival online sellers deal in that kind of volume, though.

If you're trying to argue that LGS's can't match or beat Amazon's prices we've already established that a long time ago - so I don't quite get your point here. I think we've already established that the LGS has to compete by doing better than Amazon in areas other than sales price - including making sure to put an "F" in FLGS.



> They don't need to. People talk, even when clauses have been established. It's the human factor, and very hard to negate. Look to the leak of both GW and WotC materials for examples.
> 
> You would also see effects in both business, as neither would continue their standard business until this has been resolved. WotC is still sending books, and Amazon is still selling them at reduced rates.



Leaking game IP that passes through hundreds of hands is one thing. Leaking confidential legal contracts that are basically for-lawyers-eyes only are quite another thing. Law firms that work for major companies are hard-core about confidentiality.

Secondly, nowhere is it required for Wizards of the Coast to stop doing business with Amazon.com because a shipping center somewhere in Canada screws up 1 batch out of 6,000,000 shipped orders. There might be a compensatory fine or a breach of contract if the behavior is systemic and repeated - but we have no evidence of systemic and repeat or willful bad faith in this case.

- Marty Lund


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## Corjay (Jul 3, 2008)

mlund said:


> I think that's an awful lot of assumptions right there with very little substantiation.
> 
> I don't think Amazon can "do whatever they want," nor do I think "Wizards of the Coast can't afford to lose their business." Otherwise Amazon would've had Wizards stop selling to its competitors already. If Amazon dropped off the face of the world tomorrow, or Wizards just didn't do business with them anymore, I'm pretty confident that Amazon's competitors (Buy.com, Barnes & Noble.com) would pick up their volume. It might cost a little bit of money, but Wizards isn't Amazon's hostage by any stretch of the imagination. If they damage the D&D, WotC, or Hasbro brands it is certainly in Wizard's power and best interests to cut them loose.



"Then I guess you don't know everything about [business]." —Princess Leia



Business is a power struggle. There's no such thing as corporate etiquette. There's a reason they say it's "dog eat dog". If you're not the one doing the pushing and pulling, then you're the one being pushed and pulled. Simple as that. Whether it's Amazon or it's WOTC, one of them is doing the threatening and the other one is doing the cowering, and I think it's clear in this situation which is which.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 3, 2008)

mlund said:


> If you're trying to argue that LGS's can't match or beat Amazon's prices we've already established that a long time ago - so I don't quite get your point here. I think we've already established that the LGS has to compete by doing better than Amazon in areas other than sales price - including making sure to put an "F" in FLGS.




It has been proven that this does not work. Give out things for free, and you get folks looking for handouts. If you want to sell, sell it cheap. In time sensitive markets such as gaming, you also sell it first. No LGS can do this over larger competitors.



> Leaking game IP that passes through hundreds of hands is one thing. Leaking confidential legal contracts that are basically for-lawyers-eyes only are quite another thing. Law firms that work for major companies are hard-core about confidentiality.




Confidentiality isn't all that safe. If it effected the industry there would at the very least be rumors. You find this in all levels of business. It's so prevalent that rumors concerning major companies effect stock markets.



> Secondly, nowhere is it required for Wizards of the Coast to stop doing business with Amazon.com because a shipping center somewhere in Canada screws up 1 batch out of 6,000,000 shipped orders. There might be a compensatory fine or a breach of contract if the behavior is systemic and repeated - but we have no evidence of systemic and repeat or willful bad faith in this case.
> 
> - Marty Lund




It isn't a single location hit. Pre-orders will filled and shipped early, in these cases confirmed in california as well as canada. Several folks on this site claimed to have gotten their early, a few of those willing to answer questions about content.



Regardless, I do believe that you need to support your LGS if you want the game. The stores go, then all that's left will be the internet. Their prices will be higher due to lack of competition. Without the stores, advertising is also restricted to word of mouth. A small as the gaming communiity is (relative to the global and corporate scales), this won't be enough to keep the game going.


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## Cadfan (Jul 3, 2008)

The problem with mlund's reasoning is that he presupposes that things like bulk discounts are natural, immutable facts.  They're not.  Wizards of the Coast doesn't have to offer that bulk discount.  If they believed that online distribution was doing damage to the overall health of Dungeons and Dragons, they could end bulk discounts instantly.  In fact, if they believed that deep discounting was harming the overall health of their product line, they could establish a price floor at will, simply by putting it into the contract for the purchase of their products for resale.

There's all kinds of things they could do.  Now, the fact that they're NOT doing these things suggests that either they don't believe that local gaming stores are hurting as bad as local gaming stores claim, or they don't believe that local gaming stores are as important to the hobby as local gaming stores claim, or that they feel that the overall negative effects of these policies would be worse for them than the gains from supporting local retailers.

But they _could_ do these things any time they wanted.  Or at least, at the earliest moment after their current distribution contracts expire.


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## mlund (Jul 3, 2008)

Corjay said:


> "Then I guess you don't know everything about [business]." —Princess Leia
> 
> 
> 
> Business is a power struggle. There's no such thing as corporate etiquette. There's a reason they say it's "dog eat dog". If you're not the one doing the pushing and pulling, then you're the one being pushed and pulled. Simple as that. Whether it's Amazon or it's WOTC, one of them is doing the threatening and the other one is doing the cowering, and I think it's clear in this situation which is which.




That's a wonderful exercise is baseless rhetoric, "full of sound and fury; signifying nothing," so penned the Bard.

You've offered *nothing* to substantiate your claims. I disagree with your claim the "it's clear in this situation which is which." As I've already noted, there are competitors in the market that would take Amazon's market share. Left with no evidence that Amazon is "pushing" WotC into letting them break the street date and nothing much more than your vehement distastes for Amazon, I'm laying this one firmly at the feet of your personal biases.



Cadfan said:


> The problem with mlund's reasoning is that he presupposes that things like bulk discounts are natural, immutable facts. They're not.




No, sir. While I do not disagree with the model you further espouse in your post that is a *Straw Man* you've got right here.

Volume discounts certainly are not immutable and I have no desire to portray them as such - though I think they are as "natural" as anything else such as Economies of Scale.

Higher Volume + Lower Risk can justify a Lower Price.



> Wizards of the Coast doesn't have to offer that bulk discount.



They certainly don't have to. They don't have to turn a profit either. Rather, it is in their best interests to turn a profit, and they believe it is in their best interest to offer the bulk discount.



> If they believed that online distribution was doing damage to the overall health of Dungeons and Dragons, they could end bulk discounts instantly. In fact, if they believed that deep discounting was harming the overall health of their product line, they could establish a price floor at will, simply by putting it into the contract for the purchase of their products for resale.



I believe I've already asserted "If they damage the D&D, WotC, or Hasbro brands it is certainly in Wizard's power and best interests to cut them loose."

- Marty Lund


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## Falkus (Jul 3, 2008)

> Their prices will be higher due to lack of competition




I'm fairly certain that the various different retailers on the internet compete with each other, rather than being some sort of evil cartel run by a mastermind planning on eliminating roleplaying entirely (ooh, new Spycraft campaign idea).


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## Silver Moon (Jul 3, 2008)

Apologies for bringing up the economy - I thought that mentioning the situation of my friend's store would be relevant to the topic.    The point that I was trying to make is that having a diversified product line helps.


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## Corjay (Jul 3, 2008)

mlund said:


> That's a wonderful exercise is baseless rhetoric, "full of sound and fury; signifying nothing," so penned the Bard.
> 
> You've offered *nothing* to substantiate your claims. I disagree with your claim the "it's clear in this situation which is which." As I've already noted, there are competitors in the market that would take Amazon's market share. Left with no evidence that Amazon is "pushing" WotC into letting them break the street date and nothing much more than your vehement distastes for Amazon, I'm laying this one firmly at the feet of your personal biases.



Well seeing as I have no personal bias against Amazon, you would be completely wrong in this assumption. I don't see proofs on your side, either. OH LOOK! Pure air! They call those opinions, which is all this thread has been. Somehow suddenly we're supposed to accept your lack of support as superior to mine? Please. A high horse doesn't make you taller. It just makes you higher.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 3, 2008)

Falkus said:


> I'm fairly certain that the various different retailers on the internet compete with each other, rather than being some sort of evil cartel run by a mastermind planning on eliminating roleplaying entirely (ooh, new Spycraft campaign idea).





Yeah I'm probably being a bit over dramatic about it.  Still, we've seen similar patterns. It'll only hurt the game in the long run.


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## Falkus (Jul 3, 2008)

> It'll only hurt the game in the long run.




Given that my interactions with local game stores has tended more towards 'exercise in frustration' rather than 'helpful to my gaming habits', I don't really see what difference it'll make. The important bit is the group and the rules, I don't really see how it matters where I get the rules from.


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## GSHamster (Jul 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> In fact, if they believed that deep discounting was harming the overall health of their product line, they could establish a price floor at will, simply by putting it into the contract for the purchase of their products for resale.




This is slightly more complicated. Until last year, price floors used to be illegal. The US Supreme Court only reversed that in June of 2007 (_Leegin v. PSKS_).  

I'd imagine that WotC Legal really doesn't want to be the first to test this new law out, especially against someone with as deep pockets as Amazon.com.  Especially when it's still unproven that the discounting actually harms the hobby. Remember that 4E outsold 3.5E which outsold 3E.  There's no real demonstrative proof that internet retailing/discounting is harming the hobby.


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## Corjay (Jul 3, 2008)

GSHamster said:


> This is slightly more complicated. Until last year, price floors used to be illegal. The US Supreme Court only reversed that in June of 2007 (_Leegin v. PSKS_).
> 
> I'd imagine that WotC Legal really doesn't want to be the first to test this new law out, especially against someone with as deep pockets as Amazon.com.  Especially when it's still unproven that the discounting actually harms the hobby. Remember that 4E outsold 3.5E which outsold 3E.  There's no real demonstrative proof that internet retailing/discounting is harming the hobby.



This is really where I think things go off track, when people equate the effects of the LGS going out with the inability of RPG's to be distributed. It's clear that LGS's barely touch overall RPG sales these days. In the 80's, yes, the LGS was the bread and butter of the RPG industry, but today it's just not. That's why the LGS needs to diversify if it's going to survive.

So, have we gotten anywhere in the last couple of pages with helpful information about how to help the LGS attract RPG customers?


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## Cadfan (Jul 3, 2008)

GSHamster said:


> This is slightly more complicated. Until last year, price floors used to be illegal. The US Supreme Court only reversed that in June of 2007 (_Leegin v. PSKS_).



I am aware of the case.


GSHamster said:


> I'd imagine that WotC Legal really doesn't want to be the first to test this new law out, especially against someone with as deep pockets as Amazon.com.



They wouldn't be the first to test it.  Companies are already doing this, even within the gaming community.  See, eg, Mayfair Games.


> Especially when it's still unproven that the discounting actually harms the hobby. Remember that 4E outsold 3.5E which outsold 3E. There's no real demonstrative proof that internet retailing/discounting is harming the hobby.



Agreed.  I actually said this in the post to which you're responding.


			
				mlund said:
			
		

> No, sir. While I do not disagree with the model you further espouse in your post that is a *Straw Man* you've got right here.



While I do not doubt your intentions, or your personal understanding of economics, I think that if you review the actual paragraphs that you have actually written in this thread, you will find the writings of a person who is treating bulk discounts as if they were some natural effect of the market far outside the control of Wizards of the Coast.


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## GSHamster (Jul 3, 2008)

Cadfan said:


> I am aware of the case.
> 
> They wouldn't be the first to test it.  Companies are already doing this, even within the gaming community.  See, eg, Mayfair Games.




My point was, which I should have made more explicit, is that it's too short a time span from _Leegin_ to actually infer anything from WotC's behavior. Legal departments move slowly and cautiously when dealing with new law.

The fact that they chose not to implement price floors for 4E doesn't really say anything one way or another whether WotC believes price floors are a good idea.


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## Storyteller01 (Jul 3, 2008)

Corjay said:


> So, have we gotten anywhere in the last couple of pages with helpful information about how to help the LGS attract RPG customers?





Cater to other games they play. The larger surviving stores carry multiple games (board, video, books, etc). We carry GW as well as supply mutliple hobbies. RPG's are on the downswing as far as local stores are concerned.


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## Cadfan (Jul 3, 2008)

GSHamster said:


> My point was, which I should have made more explicit, is that it's too short a time span from _Leegin_ to actually infer anything from WotC's behavior. Legal departments move slowly and cautiously when dealing with new law.
> 
> The fact that they chose not to implement price floors for 4E doesn't really say anything one way or another whether WotC believes price floors are a good idea.



Fair enough.


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## Emryys (Jul 3, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> Cater to other games they play. The larger surviving stores carry multiple games (board, video, books, etc). We carry GW as well as supply mutliple hobbies. RPG's are on the downswing as far as local stores are concerned.




Most of the stores in my locale are "Geek Emporiums"...


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 3, 2008)

As an FYI, the biggest LGS in my area recently moved their main store.

They are now located 2 blocks from a university, 2 blocks from a major public high-school, just off of a major thoroghfare...and have increased their gaming space by adding a completely separate gaming area in the suite adjacent to the store (it has a 1-way passthrough for staff).

They are anticipating gooooooood things happening to their bottom line.


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## Torx (Jul 3, 2008)

I'm quite fascinated by this thread, and felt I must contribute.  I haven't made it past page 3, so I apologize if this is redundant.

I followed the link to your web site, and like _ironvyper_, I have hefty expectations of businesses' online presences.



			
				ironvyper said:
			
		

> Your website in this age of business is both your commercial and your business location.




I must say, I was not terribly impressed with your website.  There are content errors such as, "We're open 7 days a week [...] We're closed Mondays."  Those suggest poor editing, and thus, poor attention to detail.  And, as _ironvyper_ mentioned, "under construction" pages are a big no-no.  Those suggest you're too lazy to complete a site.  Better to just leave the links out for the time being.

After viewing your web site, it gave me a rather poor impression of your store.  Then I read this:



gamersgambit said:


> We fixed the place up a great deal--removed the gamer funk, modernized the place so it looked like a real retail space instead of a 1970s throwback, put in flooring, improved customer service, added lots of add-on services and basically renovated both the place and its image.




All the renovations you did for your storefront you must do to your web site too.  Your web site has the late '90s feel - which is the equivalent of having the '70s RPG store feel.

I'm sure there are many gamers like me (I, admittedly, have never really frequently FLGSs for many reasons which have been echoed in previous pages) who will check if a business has a web site before actually driving to the location.  If the web site is poor, I will likely skip the trip altogether.

My advice would be to upgrade that web site.  You already have a leg up in that you have an amazing amount of content - the hardest thing to come by.  You just need to give the site a facelift.

Start asking your regulars if any of them do web design, work trades or whatever you can to get a clean, modern, professional site.  You could probably add an amazing amount of functionality too.  You'd be amazed what you can accomplish.

Good luck to you, sir!


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## Corjay (Jul 3, 2008)

Okay, well, as you go through the thread, don't respond to any of the economics and politics stuff. It took a forklift, a jackhammer, and a moderator's threat to get that discussion to stop, and we'd hate for the thread to close.


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## Umbran (Jul 3, 2008)

Korgoth said:


> Is it OK to ask for a clarification? What I'm wondering is whether economics (which this discussion seems like it has to include, since it's about the economic status of the LGS) can be discussed and defined as long as political statements/opinions are left out?





Sorry to take so long to address this question - we ask that questions about moderation be taken to e-mail in part so you don't have to wait for us to notice them 

To answer this - perhaps people have lost the reason why we have a No Politics rule.  We have it because discussion of politics turns out to be bad for a site that it trying to be large, family-friendly, and about RPGs.  All too often, discussion of such things starts heated arguments, which we moderators need to step in on.

So, assume that I've read the thread (which I have).  Does it seem like a bunch of people who can be trusted to discuss such topics without getting into an argument?  If I say, "it is okay, go ahead," how likely is it that I or another mod will have to come back in here to warn people, discipline someone, or close the thread?

Some of you would be fine.  Others have demonstrated an approach to discussion that would make further moderation necessary.  

This board isn't about economic theory, in depth.  I really don't think discussion of "economic liberalism" is really required to understand the current plight of the FLGS, and what store owners can do to help themselves.


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## gamersgambit (Jul 4, 2008)

> So, have we gotten anywhere in the last couple of pages with helpful information about how to help the LGS attract RPG customers?




I would have to say that yes, we have, as well as started a very interesting series of discussions regarding Wizards.

Now let me share another area of interest, and see how this comes out:

I'm also having trouble rationalizing keeping products other than Wizards and White Wolf on my shelves.  Admittedly, I have about 16 square feet dedicated to them...but they aren't moving.  I carry a selection of Rifts, Hero, and Shadowrun as well as whatever else I can come up with that's new and interesting (Grimm was a big seller; as was WH40KRPG.)

If you could choose what products that weren't White Wolf or Wizards on the shelves (including 3rd party 4th edition companies), what would you stock?

What sort of games would you like to see demo'd?

Also...perhaps more importantly:  How would you structure a 10-minute D&D demo to a new person who wanted to know about the game?

A customer of mine used to work in a GW store and said that the keywords there were "Fast, Fun, and Furious".  They'd ignore the more complex rules and had a short demo that would have people get excited about the game.  I'd like to do this for 4E, and have a few ideas, but I'm curious what you guys think.

P.S.: I especially appreciate the comments re: my website, and am working to find someone now who can fix it up.


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## ironvyper (Jul 4, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> We'd have heard about it by now. Amazon or B&N seeing possible legal action from wizards would be industry news.
> 
> They won't do anything. Much as we want to believe otherwise, wizards sn't big enough to go after these companies. They can't afford to.




WoTC might not be big enough. But Hasbro absolutely is. and if amazon or anyone else was breaking the established rules and damaging Hasbro's income then u can bet your butt that Hasbro can and would take them to court to get thier money back. Thats one of the only advantages for D@D to be part of a big company.

Which brings the legality of some of these discounting practices into play. Is borders or amazon or barns and nobles really killing the local stores all on thier own, releasing early at a huge discout on thier own, or are they maybe doing these things with the total support of WoTC and hasbro?


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## ironvyper (Jul 4, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> I would have to say that yes, we have, as well as started a very interesting series of discussions regarding Wizards.
> 
> Now let me share another area of interest, and see how this comes out:
> 
> ...




 Other then WoTC and WW i would have warhammer dark heresy. Dispite games workshops unrelenting refusal to adapt to the 90's (never mind the new millennium) and utter determination to continue failing as a business this still sells well. I know the change to FFG is creating alot of uncertainty but its a great game with a loyal fanbase. Dont expect warhammer gamers to buy crap though. We proudly claim that we play an elitist game a step above D@D and wont buy or play any old crap. So preview any books that come out, stock a couple just in case. But really look for online reviews first from fans of that game before u buy. Paizos RPG will probably be the same. Lots of people dont like 4e and will buy something else, but they are also happy with the huge library they allready have and arent gonna buy any old crap. 
e 
   The lesson is that your running a game store in a time when the gamer community is fragmenting and the economy is slowing. Your going to have to be much more careful in what you stock. If i was you i wouldnt stock anything that didnt have steller fan reviews and good online buzz. Maybe some really good indie RPGs wont get bought. Oh well, thats thier publishers and creators fault. Its not your job to support fringe games, its your job to make money and supply a product that your average consumer wants. 

  PS. If your doing drinks in your store then do fountain drinks not cans. I managed a 7-11 a few years ago and we got 5 gallon containers of fountain syrup for under 3$ each and those mixed 1/4 with water. The most expensive parts of our soda business were the cups, and they were very cheap. Offering refills for regular cups cuts that down even more. I know your gonna have to put out a couple grand to get the machine but vendors are desparate right now, you can get a great deal on fountain syrup. Its just food coloring, suger and water with some real basic flavor. Doesnt cost soda companies more then 25 cents a gallon to produce. Even if u bought for less bulk then a conveniance store you should get 4 or 5 dollars a gallon of mix, with is is 5 gallons of drink. 

     Impulse buys buy the counter and cheap snacks like hot dogs and tequitos at a competive price can make u a fortune too. My store did 1200 average profit a shift and over half of it was hot food, premade food (sandwiches) and soda. keep your store clean, your food fattening, cheap and easy and your money will roll in.


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## Dragon Snack (Jul 4, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> If you could choose what products that weren't White Wolf or Wizards on the shelves (including 3rd party 4th edition companies), what would you stock?



I think a game like Savage Worlds would do well.  It's easy to learn and, perhaps more important to you, their Explorer's Edition is only $10.  It's within most peoples 'impulse purchase' range, plus they aren't going to save much ordering it online.  The biggest problem may be that it is digest sized (but that could also be a plus, since it takes up less shelf space).

Beyond something like that, it isn't us that you should be asking.  Having people demo games is the best way to get them to sell.  Savage Worlds isn't a big seller nationally, but you wouldn't know that around here.  Someone must have taken up the mantle to promote it and it has grown exponentially.  I also still see people playing GWs spaceship battle game (Inquisitor?) locally, despite it not having much (any?) support from GW themselves.

Ask some of your best customers what other games they like.  Then ask them if they would demo those games to your other customers.  Find out if any companies have people on their demo team near your store and use them.  Enthusiasm is contagious (and it can sell product).



gamersgambit said:


> A customer of mine used to work in a GW store and said that the keywords there were "Fast, Fun, and Furious".



Heh, the tagline for Savage Worlds is 'Fast! Furious! Fun!'...


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## gamersgambit (Jul 4, 2008)

I also have items you can't find in many places anymore (Judges' Guild modules, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, etcetera).


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## Corjay (Jul 4, 2008)

ironvyper said:


> WoTC might not be big enough. But Hasbro absolutely is. and if amazon or anyone else was breaking the established rules and damaging Hasbro's income then u can bet your butt that Hasbro can and would take them to court to get thier money back. Thats one of the only advantages for D@D to be part of a big company.
> 
> Which brings the legality of some of these discounting practices into play. Is borders or amazon or barns and nobles really killing the local stores all on thier own, releasing early at a huge discout on thier own, or are they maybe doing these things with the total support of WoTC and hasbro?



It is a common misconception that an umbrella company acts like some kind of parent or big brother to its subsidiary. That is not true. They're more like a deep pocket adopted uncle. Every penny that WOTC borrows from HASBRO has to be paid back. Every case brought to HASBRO has to have a bottom line. Everything else, WOTC has to take care of themselves. HASBRO didn't invest in WOTC because they wanted to take up its cases and dump money into it. They invested in WOTC because they think WOTC can take care of itself and bring in a little cash at the same time.

HASBRO may lend its lawyers, but WOTC still has to pay those lawyers. HASBRO's might does not stand behind WOTC unless HASBRO products are included in the issue. WOTC is NOT a division of HASBRO. WOTC is a _SUBSIDIARY_ of HASBRO. Why do you think HASBRO doesn't put their logo on WOTC products? All copyrights belong to WOTC, not HASBRO. All product issues are WOTC's product issues, not HASBRO's. If WOTC doesn't pay for itself because of distribution costs, HASBRO will sell them in an instant, because they can and that's all WOTC is to them.


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## Dykstrav (Jul 5, 2008)

Corjay said:


> Thanks for the callout, gamersgambit.
> 
> There's one more thing you said that made me think. You mentioned doing things for the community. While you were speaking of the "community of gamers", it occurred to me that one of the best ways to get people to notice your store is to do community service and charities in whatever way your store can afford. Not only does it provide tax breaks, but it makes your store and its name visible. Just another idea.




This is a great idea, and an old LARP game I was involved with did exactly this. 

My vampire LARP back in the day hosted a charity ball on Mardis Gras to benefit the local blood bank--not only did we get dozens of nongamers to show up and pay for tickets, the news showed up and even the mayor's office sent some people to make the scene. The group got new players and the FLGS that hosted the ball said that their sales for that quarter went up something like 500%. Not bad for getting a cheap DJ and some bowls of red punch.


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## Simon Atavax (Jul 5, 2008)

gamersgambit said:


> So I put it to you: Support your LGS. It's the birthplace of the next generation of gamers, unless you really WANT 5.0 and 6.0 to become *completely* focused on duplicating MMORPGS because the only market left becomes people who play online.




If your FLGS was my FLGS, then I probably would, Scott.  But unfortunately the only FLGS near where I live is a scary dungeon-type place with an owner who bathes infrequently.  Merchandise is haphazardly strewn about the floor, and on any given afternoon the place is crowded with obese teenagers drinking slurpees, eating fried chicken wings, and swearing loudly as they play Magic: the Gathering.

I wish I was exaggerating.


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## pogminky (Jul 5, 2008)

But if FLGS become clean, family-friendly, nice places then where will all the socially-maladjusted teen geeks cruise for fanboi fights & foil rares?


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## gamersgambit (Jul 5, 2008)

My competitors' places, one hopes.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 6, 2008)

> it occurred to me that one of the best ways to get people to notice your store is to do community service and charities in whatever way your store can afford. Not only does it provide tax breaks, but it makes your store and its name visible.




My FLGS has been supporting gamer troops by accepting reading materials and gaming supplies for shipping overseas.  It seems that there aren't too many LGSs or Amazon deliveries to Iraq, Afghanistan, the Balkans, and certain other locales.

Remembering how my Dad (an Army reserve MD) was stationed in Germany (a country he knows well; a language he understands) during Desert Storm and nearly went bozo from boredom until his care packages started arriving, I knew that the guys abroad were doing even worse on average.  My Dad could at least see some mainstream entertainment where he was.

So I started dumping huge lots of softcover books into my LGS's bin- mostly collections of short stories, single-volume novel collections, and self-contained novels (those without sequels).  Some came from my own collection, others came from Half-Price Books.  I even sold off some games I didn't like or use to get more.  Sometimes I'd even buy 2 copies of a collection of stories when they first hit the stands- one for me, one for those abroad.

Then I asked about gaming supplies.  After some inquiries to the military, the FLGS said they could collect & send them, so I scoured some sales (and Half-Price Books) found and sent a HERO book, a set of the Core3 from 2Ed & from 3Ed + Oriental Adventures, Ars Magica 5th, Mutants & Masterminds 1st and such, plus a few bricks of Chessex dice.

According to the manager, I was the main supporter of the drive.

The store actually got a commendation from the military!

After the commendation, more people started contributing, especially relatives of soldiers and parents of younger store patrons.

I'm pretty sure that little display of patriotism increased sales, if only for buying books.  I know it improved customer loyalty (based on what other customers said, at least).


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## Corjay (Jul 6, 2008)

Yeah, I've seen specific requests from soldiers for people to send them roleplaying supplies. I would imagine the best bet would be the kind they can play within a couple of hours.


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## jmucchiello (Jul 6, 2008)

Storyteller01 said:


> By doing nothing to curtail the releases in Amazon or B&N, they have effectively condoned their actions. Wizard's won't do anything because whatever incestive has been established is batter than what they get from LGS's.





redcard said:


> How do you know they've done nothing?





Storyteller01 said:


> We'd have heard about it by now. Amazon or B&N seeing possible legal action from wizards would be industry news.
> 
> They won't do anything. Much as we want to believe otherwise, wizards sn't big enough to go after these companies. They can't afford to.



OTOH, WotC dropped support of paper magazines in order to move players onto the Internet. Perhaps they don't see a need for healthy LGSs.


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## Glyfair (Jul 8, 2008)

jmucchiello said:


> OTOH, WotC dropped support of paper magazines in order to move players onto the Internet. Perhaps they don't see a need for healthy LGSs.



I will state that one of my FLGSs stated shortly after the last print issues that it was affecting his gaming sales.  People would drop by to look at and pick up the latest magazines.  They'd look around, and usually see something they wanted and picked that up.  After the magazines were canceled those customers dropped by less often, and bought less things.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jul 8, 2008)

I'll chime in with an anecdote of my own: I subscribed to both Dragon and Dungeon along with other gaming mags.  The ads and reviews made me at least ask about RPG products I didn't necessarily see.

As each one ceased standard publication (by either going digital or going out of business), my gaming selections became more focused, and I spent less money on RPGs in general.  When WotC took the last of my gaming mags from my hands, I turned entirely to word of mouth.  Most of my purchases since the death of the physical magazines have been used purchases- IOW, not in LGSs.

And now that I've had 4Ed for a while, what remains for me is catching up on HERO supplements.


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## CountPopeula (Jul 8, 2008)

RabidBob said:


> My LGS offer a mail order service and when I recently had a problem with an item I bought through the post they replaced it with out any hassle at all; if I'd bought from Amazon I'd have no end of problems.




Untrue. I've had a few issues with products I bought at Amazon. For instance, i got one of the Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows books with missing/double printed pages. I thought it was better me who could download a pdf to read the missing chapter in about 5 minutes than some 8 year old kid who would cry about it. Finished the book, e-mailed amazon, and my replacement arrived  like, two days later with a postage-paid return mailer for my book.

I also bought a digital camera from Amazon that got lost in transit. Called customer service, was on the phone with the agent for about two minutes. He checked the tracking page, said it looked like it got lost, and sent me a replacement with overnight shipping free, and refunded the shipping I paid originally.

Amazon seems to have a bad rap for the delays on the 4e core books, but they really do have excellent customer service. I've never had a problem with them that wasn't resolved quickly and to my satisfaction. Just one more thing for a LGS to consider.


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## Corjay (Jul 8, 2008)

Until recently, Amazon was getting reported enumerable times on its refusal to live up to its promises and obligations as a service provider, siting such things as endless runarounds and unfulfilled promises, such as replacement products that would never arrive, or purchased products arriving months after being ordered, and in some cases never. The government began to fine them hefty sums. After that, cost benefit analysis probably set them straight.


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## graywizard8 (Jul 8, 2008)

*I have been to gamersgambit.*

Long first post. 

I have been to gamersgambit. 

First, they have done a nice job of fixing up the store. It is clean and will lit with a nice bathroom. However the downstairs gamming area needs some work. 

Second, the staff has been friendly with me on all occasions that I have shopped there. I did have to wait one time to checkout while a clerk was playing a video game. They have answered my questions to my satisfaction. I feel like the owners do care about there store and customers. 

The thing is, that even though this is a good store, I will not play there. For me its hard to just show up to the store and sit down where some group is playing and insert myself into there group. I feel like an outsider. This goes for any game store I have been in. 
To get me to come game at your store I need to feel invited to play before I come in. I played my first 4th edition game at the gamersgambit and it was a nice experience. While shopping for some DnD minis and stuff I was told they where doing some 4th edition demo games and asked if I would like to play. They did a good job of making it an event, they had a BBQ and lots of premade character sheets. They should have had someone organize a marshaling area because I did not know where to go to get into a starting game. If you invite me to game at your store I will buy some gaming stuff while I'm there. 

The area you need to really improve on is communicating. You have my email address and have had it for awhile. But I have never got a any email from you. It would be nice to get a email telling me about any events you have going and what I can do to get into the events.

Thanks 
Thomas T


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## haakon1 (Jul 9, 2008)

JoeGKushner said:


> 3. Taxed year after year.




There's a tax on ASSETS in Illinois, not sure on sales/income?

Weird state, if so.


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## haakon1 (Jul 9, 2008)

jmucchiello said:


> otoh, wotc dropped support of paper magazines in order to move players onto the internet. Perhaps they don't see a need for healthy lgss.




qft


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## haakon1 (Jul 9, 2008)

graywizard8 said:


> For me its hard to just show up to the store and sit down where some group is playing and insert myself into there group. I feel like an outsider. This goes for any game store I have been in.




True for me too.  Where I have played, it's been at the invitation of the game store owner.  Both times, it was at the same FLGS (Games Plus in Woodinville, WA), with the same guy.

Once there was no one else around, we talked briefly about the Civil War, he pulled out his favorite board game, and I beat him at it (did he let me win?  if so, he wasn't obvious about it!).

The other time we was demo'ing D&D with another store employee and his daughter to someone who hadn't played.  He invited me and my wife to join in, and when my wife (non-gamer) didn't want to, his daughter showed her Blokus instead.

Truly, the "F" in FLGS is there.

I'm lucky enough to have another FLGS, which actually sold the books at official WOTC game day in Seattle, but they've never asked me to play, so I never have.  Nice enough folks, though.


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## Corjay (Jul 9, 2008)

graywizard8 said:


> The thing is, that even though this is a good store, I will not play there. For me its hard to just show up to the store and sit down where some group is playing and insert myself into there group. I feel like an outsider. This goes for any game store I have been in.
> To get me to come game at your store I need to feel invited to play before I come in. I played my first 4th edition game at the gamersgambit and it was a nice experience. While shopping for some DnD minis and stuff I was told they where doing some 4th edition demo games and asked if I would like to play. They did a good job of making it an event, they had a BBQ and lots of premade character sheets. They should have had someone organize a marshaling area because I did not know where to go to get into a starting game. If you invite me to game at your store I will buy some gaming stuff while I'm there.



This is indeed a good point. I'm surprised I didn't think of it considering my own experience. This is definitely a major problem that should be resolved in most LGS. I don't have any ideas on how to consistently resolve this issue at this time, but I'm sure a little brainstorming could birth a reasonable result.



graywizard8 said:


> The area you need to really improve on is communicating. You have my email address and have had it for awhile. But I have never got a any email from you. It would be nice to get a email telling me about any events you have going and what I can do to get into the events.



There you go. Straight from the customer's mouth. They want the information you can provide. Imagine how many other customers out there WANT to receive emails on products and services you offer, let alone simply wouldn't mind even if it's not a conscious desire. Customers who would like to be informed when the latest 4e book is in.


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