# Two Weapon Fighting and Multiple Attacks from BAB



## Dax Doomslayer (Dec 3, 2003)

Hi Folks,
Easy question (I think) that I'm trying to get confirmation on.  With a fighter with multiple attacks due to their BAB uses two weapons, is that additional attack at the highest attack modifier?  For example (without using any strength/magic etc modifiers), there is a 6th level fighter with a BAB of +6/+1 who has the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and is using a light weapon in his off-hand (-2/-2).  The two weapons add one attack.  Thus would it be +4/-1/+4?  Or would it be +4/-1/-1?  I'm pretty sure it is at the higher BAB but can not find it anywhere in the PHB.  Any help would be appreciated!!  Thanks.


----------



## Jeff Wilder (Dec 3, 2003)

Dax Doomslayer said:
			
		

> With a fighter with multiple attacks due to their BAB uses two weapons, is that additional attack at the highest attack modifier?




Yes.  (In your example, the 6th level fighter would attack at +4/-1 with the primary weapon and +4 with the secondary weapon.)  Checking the 3.5E SRD, I am surprised this isn't made explicit in the Two-Weapon Fighting feat; I assume they felt it was clear enough in the absense of iterative attacks that there was no need.


Jeff


----------



## Voadam (Dec 3, 2003)

It is explicitly spelled out in the combat section of the 3.5 srd under two weapon fighting

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:
•If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
•The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.
Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances	Primary Hand	Off Hand
Normal penalties	–6	–10
Off-hand weapon is light	–4	–8
Two-Weapon Fighting feat	–4	–4
Off-hand weapon is light and Two-Weapon Fighting feat	–2	–2


----------



## mikebr99 (Dec 3, 2003)

And this is why the 2 weapon feat chain exists.... to increase the number of attacks with your off-hand weapon.


Mike


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Dec 4, 2003)

Voadam said:
			
		

> It is explicitly spelled out in the combat section of the 3.5 srd under two weapon fighting
> 
> TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING
> If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:
> ...





Hi Folks, 
Thanks for the reply.  I believe something has gotten "muddied" here (although wilder_jw did answer my question).  Actually, the question isn't what the modifiers are for two weapon fighting but instead if one gets multiple attacks due to their BAB (i.e. 6th level for a fighter) AND is using 2 weapons, what BAB is that third attack?  Is it at the highest BAB or the lowest?  Thus a 6th level fighter is +6 / +1.  If they have two weapons (assuming they have all the proper 2 weapon fighting feats and thus -2 / -2) would the BAB be +4 / -1  with the extra attack being at +4?  Or will the extra attack be at -1 (the lower BAB)?  That is actually my question.  If I misinterpreted your point, please let me know!  Thanks!!


----------



## Hypersmurf (Dec 4, 2003)

_All_ the attacks from Two-Weapon Fighting and from the TWF feat chain are based on your highest BAB.

The first attack for using a second weapon uses your highest BAB, plus all appropriate modifiers, and TWF penalties.

The second attack - from Improved Two Weapon Fighting - uses your highest BAB, plus all appropriate modifiers, and TWF penalties... and also incurs a -5 penalty.

The third attack - from Greater Two Weapon Fighting - uses your highest BAB, plus all appropriate modifiers, and TWF penalties... and also incurs a -10 penalty.

-Hyp.


----------



## Dax Doomslayer (Dec 4, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> _All_ the attacks from Two-Weapon Fighting and from the TWF feat chain are based on your highest BAB.
> 
> The first attack for using a second weapon uses your highest BAB, plus all appropriate modifiers, and TWF penalties.
> 
> ...




Thanks Hypersmurf!!  That is what I thought.  The issue is, I could not find it in the PHB or SRD anywhere.  I found that odd . . . Thanks again.


----------



## Ranger REG (Dec 4, 2003)

That's because it was discussed many times during 3e. Check the 3e FAQ.


----------



## Darklone (Dec 4, 2003)

Btw, does anyone have a clue why there's not a fourth feat for a fourth attack when the BAB reaches 16? I can't imagine balance issues...


----------



## brendan candries (Dec 4, 2003)

Is there any ruling about the timing of those attacks?

I'm sure that for each specific hand you go from lowest to highest penalty.

Are you allowed to swap between hands as you see fit?

Are you allowed to start with your off-hand? Or does your first attack decide what your primary/off-hand is?

etc ...


----------



## Hypersmurf (Dec 4, 2003)

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first."

Now, interestingly, this means that by a strict reading, someone with a Str of 8, a Dex of 20, and a BAB of +6, for example, cannot stab someone with his dagger and then throw it at someone else.

His bonus on the stab would be +5 (+6 -1 Str), and his bonus on the second attack would be +6 (+1 +5 Dex).  Since the attacks must be made in order from highest bonus to lowest, the +6 attack cannot occur after the +5 attack.

-Hyp.


----------



## JoeBlank (Dec 4, 2003)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> "If you get multiple attacks because your *base attack bonus* is high enough, you must make the attacks in order *from highest bonus to lowest*. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first."
> 
> Now, interestingly, this means that by a strict reading, someone with a Str of 8, a Dex of 20, and a BAB of +6, for example, cannot stab someone with his dagger and then throw it at someone else.
> 
> ...



Because the quoted rule referst to base attack bonus and then merely "bonus" later in the same sentence, one could interpret this to mean that the "bonus" is refering to base attack bonus. Therefore, the rule means that if your BAB is +6, you get attacks at +6/+1, and must use the +6 before you use the +1. 

That would make more sense. To interpret it to mean that you total bonuses and then attack in that order would mean that the dwarf might have to attack the orc before attacking another opponent, or the ranger might have to attack his favored enemy before moving on to other opponents, because they get a bonus to attack against those opponents.

Does that make sense?


----------



## Datt (Dec 4, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Btw, does anyone have a clue why there's not a fourth feat for a fourth attack when the BAB reaches 16? I can't imagine balance issues...



 They do.  It is called Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and it is an Epic feat.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Dec 4, 2003)

JoeBlank said:
			
		

> Does that make sense?




Of course it does... but it yields another oddity.

When you make a second iterative attack with your primary weapon, you actually use a lower BAB figure.  (The BAB tables illustrate this as +6/+1, for example.)

When you make a second off-hand attack through ITWF, however, _you use your highest BAB_, and incur a -5 penalty on the roll.  So while the total bonus is much the same as the total bonus for the second iterative attack with the primary weapon, _you are using a higher BAB figure to calculate it_.

Thus, if you interpret "highest bonus to lowest" to refer to the BAB you are using, then strictly, you must make every off-hand attack you are permitted before making your second iterative primary attack.

If your BAB is +11 and you have GTWF, the following options are available:

P1/O1/O2/O3/P2/P3
O1/P1/O2/O3/P2/P3
O1/O2/P1/O3/P2/P3
O1/O2/O3/P1/P2/P3

But you couldn't, for example, go P1/O1/P2/O2/P3/O3.

Also, if you're making an extra attack through Rapid Shot - also based off highest BAB - it must occur before the second iterative primary attack.

Stab-Stab-Stab-Throw with a dagger using three iterative attacks and Rapid Shot is not possible.  It would have to be Stab-Throw-Quickdraw-Stab-Stab.

-Hyp.


----------



## Ranger REG (Dec 4, 2003)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Btw, does anyone have a clue why there's not a fourth feat for a fourth attack when the BAB reaches 16? I can't imagine balance issues...



You'll have to ask Wizards. Personally, having a total of 7 attacks using unarmed strikes is powerful enough. Any further and you might as well pick up Whirlwind Attack (lets you attack up to 8 opponents adjacent to you, using your highest attack bonus ... or 6 opponents using hexes, hehehehehe).


----------



## Ranger REG (Dec 4, 2003)

brendan candries said:
			
		

> Is there any ruling about the timing of those attacks?



Beyond the fact that all must be resolved on your turn, no. Player's choice.




			
				brendan candries said:
			
		

> I'm sure that for each specific hand you go from lowest to highest penalty.



That's up to the player. For example, perhaps it is convenient to resolve all primary hand attacks before off-hand attacks to resolve weapon damage, or resolve from highest attack bonus to lowest bonus, make note as to which is primary hand and which is off hand.




			
				brendan candries said:
			
		

> Are you allowed to swap between hands as you see fit?



At the start of your turn prior to making an attack roll, you can declare a switch between primary hand and off hand. In 3e, that can only happen if one has Ambidexterity. In 3.5e, one must have TWF feat.




			
				brendan candries said:
			
		

> Are you allowed to start with your off-hand? Or does your first attack decide what your primary/off-hand is?



Again, player's discretion, as long you declare them to your DM on your turn.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Dec 4, 2003)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> That's up to the player. For example, perhaps it is convenient to resolve all primary hand attacks before off-hand attacks to resolve weapon damage, or resolve from highest attack bonus to lowest bonus, make note as to which is primary hand and which is off hand.




The rules for the Full Attack Action specifically state that attacks must occur from highest bonus to lowest bonus.

It doesn't define exactly what it means by that, but once you've determined what bonus it's referring to, it's not discretionary.

-Hyp.


----------

