# Babylon 5



## Mark (Feb 25, 2008)

Saw this on another board while surfing and I wondered how local experts might tweak it or if people simply agreed.  Be careful not to reveal any spoilers, please.  Never watched any of this series because I never had the chance and always figured someday I would do so but in its entirety.  That time is soon to be coming and I want to have the best possible viewing experience that can be had.  Thank you in advance for any help in making that happen.




> Some movies stand on their own but it helps to watch them in some order.
> 
> The first movie below was made well after the series was made yet fit flawlessly as a prequel (and then some) to the series. It was cool seeing the series then seeing the prequel, In The Beginning, but you may want to watch it in order.
> 
> ...


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 25, 2008)

Do not, do not, _do not_ watch "In the Beginning" before watching the series. While the movie is indeed a prequel, it assumes you've watched the series (or at least a good chunk of it), and spoils some of the first two seasons' _major_ plot points.

Seriously. Don't. Don't. Did I mention don't?

It's worth watching, absolutely. (In fact, I think it's the best of the B5 movies.) But _afterward_, not before.

In fact, I'd watch the entire B5 series before watching any of the movies. The ones that don't give spoilers are entirely standalone stories that don't need to be watched at the precise time they technically "occur."


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## occam (Feb 25, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Do not, do not, _do not_ watch "In the Beginning" before watching the series. While the movie is indeed a prequel, it assumes you've watched the series (or at least a good chunk of it), and spoils some of the first two seasons' _major_ plot points.
> 
> Seriously. Don't. Don't. Did I mention don't?
> 
> ...




The fanged rodent has it right. You can watch the movies after watching all of the series, or in the same order in which they were aired, but do not follow them chronologically.


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## Richards (Feb 25, 2008)

Agreed.  There is much wisdom in the Rodent of the Night.  I'm halfway through season two, having never seen the series before, and the friend that's loaning me his VHS tapes gave me the "In the Beginning" DVD movie to watch first.  Not only did it spoil a lot of future plotlines, but now whenever I see this one particular character in any danger I know he'll be just fine, because he played a prominent role in the chunks of the movie that took place _after_ the rest of the series.

Johnathan


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## stonegod (Feb 25, 2008)

In the Beginning gives away the huge plot point for Season 1. It also gives away the fact that certain characters survive stuff by the fact they are in it (but that isn't as huge of a deal---as there is a big diff on how they get there). But that plot point is a huge one, so I wouldn't do it.

It was shot after seasons 1-4 were in the can, though it does not give away anything particular in season 4.

Never saw Thirdspace, so no comment.

River of Souls was a bit meh for me anyway, but it doesn't give anything away that I recall.


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## Meloncov (Feb 25, 2008)

I think there's a reasonable argument for watching ITB first; while it does give away several plot points, it also means that you start watching the show with something good, instead of the rather dreadful first half of the first season.


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## Inferno! (Feb 25, 2008)

As I watched the first season, I wanted to like it, but always thought it could be better.  But after season one, all the foreshadowing pays off, and in retrospect season one wasn't so bad.

As far as the movies, yeah - what everyone else said.


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 25, 2008)

Meloncov said:
			
		

> I think there's a reasonable argument for watching ITB first; while it does give away several plot points, it also means that you start watching the show with something good, instead of the rather dreadful first half of the first season.




While it is (unfortunately) true that the first half of season 1 was pretty weak (especially given the fantastic nature of seasons 2-4, and parts of 5), I still can't get behind watching ITB first. Better simply to acknowledge going in that the series takes some time to get going, and that it's worth waiting for it to do so, than to spoil such major plot points.


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## Umbran (Feb 25, 2008)

Seems to me you can skip the movies entirely, and not miss anything really important or particularly entertaining.  The series stands on its own, and the movies are of markedly lesser quality.


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## Mark (Feb 25, 2008)

Seems fairly close to unanimous.  Thanks, all!


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 25, 2008)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Seems to me you can skip the movies entirely, and not miss anything really important or particularly entertaining.  The series stands on its own, and the movies are of markedly lesser quality.




I'll second this.  In The Beginning is the only one that I really liked.  The rest were decidedly meh.

Speaking to when to watch ITB, definitely last!  There are spoilers even beyond the first two seasons (if I recall when a certain event happened correctly).

If you're going to watch Crusade, you should watch A Call To Arms, but it's not strictly necessary.  Crusade has a decidedly different tone to it than B5, with more humor injected.  It also suffers from the same lack of focus the first season of B5 has as well.  That said, it's not awful and I think it stands fairly well.  I think a lot of people were watching it and expecting basically a sequel to B5, and were disappointed when it wasn't.  After you watch it, I suggest hitting up the Wikpedia page or a fansite to get some of the background and direction filled in.


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## Blackrat (Feb 25, 2008)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Seems to me you can skip the movies entirely, and not miss anything really important or particularly entertaining.  The series stands on its own, and the movies are of markedly lesser quality.



Every other but _In the Beginning_. That one is actually of the same (or possibly higher) entertainment quality than the series itself, and should be a must for anyone interested in B5. The other movies as you said are definetly of lesser quality and can be skipped without losing anything.


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## HeavenShallBurn (Feb 25, 2008)

Concur with pretty much everything said so far.  The series stands by itself, it's a masterpiece of sci-fi I wish we could get more of.  Does tend to start off a bit slow but it's all necessary for the greatness to come.  The movies are of mediocre to poor quality with the sole exception of _In the Beginning_ which should really be watched after finishing the series because of the spoilers.


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## Blackrat (Feb 25, 2008)

BTW, noticed your list missed _The Lost Tales_, first of which came out on DVD half a year ago. Now if you're intent on watching everything, it goes chronologically as the last of that list. But if you're not hard fan of the series who want's to see absolutely everything, I can't really recommend it. It is probably the worst of B5, right below _The River of Souls_. Now the second of those, whenever it comes out, if it comes out, is hopefully going to be better as it seems to have a story about Garibaldi, my favourite character in the series.


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## Angel Tarragon (Feb 25, 2008)

You know, Amazon's got a great deal right now. You can get the whole series for about $200. As soon as we move to Phoenix I'm getting a job.

There's too much I've missed out on over they years. Babylon 5 has always interested me. and I'd love to get the series, but right now $200 is a serious investment (4 months worth of savings) I can't make. After all expenses, birthdays and other holidays I really only get $66 a month from my SSD.

But, I will get a job, and I will buy the series!


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## Megaton (Feb 25, 2008)

I plan on Netflixing it pretty soon. I've also been interested in it for a while but never got around to watching it.


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## Rackhir (Feb 25, 2008)

Reveille said:
			
		

> You know, Amazon's got a great deal right now. You can get the whole series for about $200. As soon as we move to Phoenix I'm getting a job.
> 
> There's too much I've missed out on over they years. Babylon 5 has always interested me. and I'd love to get the series, but right now $200 is a serious investment (4 months worth of savings) I can't make. After all expenses, birthdays and other holidays I really only get $66 a month from my SSD.
> 
> But, I will get a job, and I will buy the series!




Depending on your time frame, I have seen repeated sales of the B5 Season Boxed sets for $20 a pop. Since money is a concern I'd wait for one of those sales. They might not be until the Thanksgiving-Christmas time frame though.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 25, 2008)

I think even the first season is better than most of the sci-fi out there today (and streets ahead of anything else at the time). I really liked Jeffrey Sinclair, and there were some brilliant non-arc episodes (Deathstalker & By Any Means Necessary, for instance).

I'd certainly recommend watching seasons 1-4 in order before watching anything else. I personally didn't like season 5 - I thought the delay in greenlighting it caused some unfortunate compromises and clumsy retconning (although others clearly liked it, so you need to watch it to make your mind up, I guess!)

Cheers


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## stonegod (Feb 25, 2008)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> I'd certainly recommend watching seasons 1-4 in order before watching anything else. I personally didn't like season 5 - I thought the delay in greenlighting it caused some unfortunate compromises and clumsy retconning (although others clearly liked it, so you need to watch it to make your mind up, I guess!)



Season 5 had its points, especially the arc of a certain Ranger. But if you'd refuse to see most of 5 (which I can see) you still have to see:
- Day of the Dead (Neil Giaman wrote it. 'nuf said)
- Sleeping in the Light (last episode, and actually finished during Season 4).


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 26, 2008)

Orius said:
			
		

> The Gathering can pretty much be skipped.  It doesn't have the same polish and quality as the rest of the series.  It serves as an introduction to several major characters, but really, Season One can do that just fine on its own.  Actually, Season 1 does a better job of it IMO.




I agree with the rest of the post, but I disagree with this.  The Gathering sets up a good deal of backstory for a couple of characters and has a fair bit of foreshadowing.  Also, there's a moment in the second season (IIRC) that is pretty much completely set up in the pilot.


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## Meloncov (Feb 26, 2008)

If you do skip through season one (which I'd recomend if your feeling dubious about the series after the first few episodes) be sure to watch Believers. It's not essential to any story arcs, but it's an awesome episode.


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## Orius (Feb 26, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I agree with the rest of the post, but I disagree with this.  The Gathering sets up a good deal of backstory for a couple of characters and has a fair bit of foreshadowing.  Also, there's a moment in the second season (IIRC) that is pretty much completely set up in the pilot.




I didn't watch The Gathering when it first aired.  It didn't look all that impressive to me, and I ignored it.  I did eventually get hooked by the end of the first season, and I never felt like I missed the pilot movie.


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## Mark (Feb 26, 2008)

spoiler tags, please


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## xmanii (Feb 26, 2008)

Mark said:
			
		

> spoiler tags, please





Yes, please.


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## Plane Sailing (Feb 26, 2008)

I've deleted posts which contain spoilers.

Remember, you lucky people who have already enjoyed B5 - this thread is for people who have _never seen it yet_. Please don't mention anything about individual characters - restrict yourselves to mentioning episodes that you particularly enjoyed without saying why you enjoyed them.

Thanks


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## xmanii (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks!


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## Storm Raven (Feb 27, 2008)

Orius said:
			
		

> I didn't watch The Gathering when it first aired.  It didn't look all that impressive to me, and I ignored it.  I did eventually get hooked by the end of the first season, and I never felt like I missed the pilot movie.




I have mixed feelings about _The Gathering_. On the one hand, it sets up the base of the Season One plot (and one scene in particular is directly referenced in Season One), and sets up a certain character who becomes prominent starting in Season Two.

However, the story itself is slow, and several characters were changed significantly from the pilot to the series (partially as a result of the inordinate time delay before the network greenlighted the series after airing the pilot). Some parts are shot fairly badly (in particular, the actor playing the doctor in the pilot is lit so badly in many of his scenes that you cannot make out his facial features).

I would recommend watching Season One through _Signs and Portents_, and then going back and watching _The Gathering_. I would actually recommend watching the first season - there are only a couple of bad episodes in there, although most do not come up to the standard set by later seasons of _Babylon 5_. They do, however, serve to establish the characters and the setting. I'd compare just watching the "plot-arc" episodes of Season One to deciding that instead of eating a piece of cake, you'll just have a plate of icing. Sure, all the sugar and butter tastes good, but you end up wishing you had some cake to go with it.


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## Zog (Feb 27, 2008)

*Thirdspace*

Watch thirdspace halfway through season 4, or before season 5.  It has one scene which basically explains why a plot/character development Did not happen.

It is a decent movie, not Great, but worth watching.


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## Grog (Feb 28, 2008)

Basically, word to what everyone else here has said. Watch the show. Watch it from the beginning. Do not skip Season One.

There is a very important reason for this. Babylon 5, more than almost any other show ever made, is structured as a novel for television. You wouldn't pick up a novel and start reading at Chapter 7, would you? Of course not. You start at the beginning.

Now, Babylon 5 is not perfect. It definitely has its weak points, and Season One is the weakest of the lot. Episodes like "Infection" will probably have you wondering why you're wasting your time with the show and wondering what we were all smoking when we told you it was so great. But Season One lays a lot of crucial groundwork. There are plot threads that begin in the _very first episode_ that play out through the end of the show. There are things that happen later in the show that, if you watch from the beginning, will absolutely floor you; if you start with Season Two, they'll still be interesting, but they won't have nearly the same impact.

Now, that said, there is one small exception to that. In my opinion, "The Gathering" isn't very good, and should NOT be a newbie's first impression of B5. If you've committed to watching the whole show, or at least giving it a while before making a judgment, then absolutely, start with "The Gathering." But if not, I'd say start with the first episode of Season One and go back and watch "The Gathering" about 1/2-3/4 of the way through Season One. It's not ideal, but it'll work.

And don't watch "In the Beginning" first, for reasons already stated in this thread. Watch it either after the end of Season Four, or the end of the show.

As for the rest of the movies, they're pretty mediocre IMO. And while I loved B5, I thought Crusade sucked. There were only two or three episodes I'd even rate as halfway decent, and the rest ranged from poor to utterly abysmal (I don't understand how "Visitors from Down the Street" ever even got made. Why did no one stage an intervention for JMS?)


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## Agamon (Feb 28, 2008)

Been wanting to watch B5 for so long, this thread inspired me to check out eBay.  $115 for the series, good deal.  A shame that I have a human-sized pile of unwatched DVDs already, but that's besides the point (I guess the writers strike didn't last long enough...)


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## Agamon (Feb 28, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> Now, Babylon 5 is not perfect. It definitely has its weak points, and Season One is the weakest of the lot. Episodes like "Infection" will probably have you wondering why you're wasting your time with the show and wondering what we were all smoking when we told you it was so great. But Season One lays a lot of crucial groundwork. There are plot threads that begin in the _very first episode_ that play out through the end of the show. There are things that happen later in the show that, if you watch from the beginning, will absolutely floor you; if you start with Season Two, they'll still be interesting, but they won't have nearly the same impact.




A lot of TV shows are like this, with weak first seasons that set the tone of the series and get you familiar with the characters and then follow up with very strong additional seasons.  All the more reason networks need to give shows more than a season before axing it.


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## Mouseferatu (Feb 28, 2008)

Agamon said:
			
		

> All the more reason networks need to give shows more than a season before axing it.




*coughcoughFIREFLYcough*


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## Blackrat (Feb 28, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> ...But Season One lays a lot of crucial groundwork. There are plot threads that begin in the _very first episode_ that play out through the end of the show. There are things that happen later in the show that, if you watch from the beginning, will absolutely floor you; if you start with Season Two, they'll still be interesting, but they won't have nearly the same impact.
> 
> Now, that said, there is one small exception to that. In my opinion, "The Gathering" isn't very good, and should NOT be a newbie's first impression of B5. If you've committed to watching the whole show, or at least giving it a while before making a judgment, then absolutely, start with "The Gathering." But if not, I'd say start with the first episode of Season One and go back and watch "The Gathering" about 1/2-3/4 of the way through Season One. It's not ideal, but it'll work...



I have to comment this a bit. I agree that _The Gathering_ is one of the poorest parts of B5 but it should be watched. And I think you should really start with it before Season 1. Reason to this is that they lay down few plot-arcs there that are referenced during Season 1, and one arc that actually resolves at the very end of the series. I don't remember exactly but it is the one of the last three episodes that resolves this. Also there is one character that gets introduced in _The Gathering_, and if you didn't see it, later seasons will be a bit baffling.


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## jonesy (Feb 28, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> And while I loved B5, I thought Crusade sucked. There were only two or three episodes I'd even rate as halfway decent, and the rest ranged from poor to utterly abysmal (I don't understand how "Visitors from Down the Street" ever even got made. Why did no one stage an intervention for JMS?)



Visitors bad? I thought that was the best episode of Crusade. Nice twist. Just seemed like it should have been an episode of Outer Limits or something. Not B5.

Gathering I really don't know what to think about. I didn't think it was necessary. At all.

I liked In The Beginning, but "And the Sky Full of Stars" and "Atonement" handled the subject better (and Sky even looked better). The Sheridan parts were the only interesting ones.

Don't even think about skipping season 1 by the way. "...Sky..." and "Chrysalis" alone are worth it.

A Call to Arms was pretty good, but it was plagued by odd sound choises. Like the entire final confrontation. It was either cheesy, lame or artsy-fartsy. Maybe all three.

Thirdspace was a level from a videogame, not a movie.

River of Souls? I fell asleep watching it. Twice.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Feb 28, 2008)

While I am willing to agree that Season 1 isn't the best of B5, I still liked it when I watched it again on DVD a few years ago. I am somehow a fan of Captain Sinclair - and no, I am not trying to justify this, in case anyone is suprised or appaled.


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## Blackrat (Feb 28, 2008)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Captain Sinclair



[nitpicking]Commander[/nitpicking]
Anyways, I agree. One of my favourite characters.


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## Grog (Feb 28, 2008)

Blackrat said:
			
		

> I have to comment this a bit. I agree that _The Gathering_ is one of the poorest parts of B5 but it should be watched. And I think you should really start with it before Season 1. Reason to this is that they lay down few plot-arcs there that are referenced during Season 1, and one arc that actually resolves at the very end of the series. I don't remember exactly but it is the one of the last three episodes that resolves this. Also there is one character that gets introduced in _The Gathering_, and if you didn't see it, later seasons will be a bit baffling.



Oh, I agree that "The Gathering" is best watched first. I'm just saying that I don't want people to watch it and decide that the rest of the show must suck and not watch any more. If someone has decided to give the show a serious chance, they should start with "The Gathering," but if not, or if you're trying to get a skeptical friend into the show or something, it's probably best to start with the first ep of Season One. At least IMO.


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## Grog (Feb 28, 2008)

jonesy said:
			
		

> Visitors bad? I thought that was the best episode of Crusade. Nice twist. Just seemed like it should have been an episode of Outer Limits or something. Not B5.



Well, your mileage obviously varies, but I thought most of the episode was a clunky, poorly-written lead up to a joke that wasn't even very good. Anything more would be getting into spoiler territory, so I'll stop there.



			
				jonesy said:
			
		

> A Call to Arms was pretty good, but it was plagued by odd sound choises. Like the entire final confrontation. It was either cheesy, lame or artsy-fartsy. Maybe all three.



Oh god, the music for Call to Arms was _awful_. The same composer did the music for Crusade, btw - another point against it.

By contrast, Cristopher Franke's score for B5 was awesome.


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## LightPhoenix (Feb 29, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> Oh god, the music for Call to Arms was _awful_. The same composer did the music for Crusade, btw - another point against it.
> 
> By contrast, Cristopher Franke's score for B5 was awesome.




I didn't think the music was bad.  It wasn't great, but at least they tried something new rather than going to the old orchestral well.


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## TwinBahamut (Feb 29, 2008)

Grog said:
			
		

> Basically, word to what everyone else here has said. Watch the show. Watch it from the beginning. Do not skip Season One.
> 
> There is a very important reason for this. Babylon 5, more than almost any other show ever made, is structured as a novel for television. You wouldn't pick up a novel and start reading at Chapter 7, would you? Of course not. You start at the beginning.



Heh, I wish I had the chance.

The problem with being exposed to a series simply be just stumbling across it while channel surfing is that you have no control where in the story that you start. I ended up starting somewhere in the middle of season three, watched through to the end of season four or so, lost track of the series, started again with a totally random selection of episodes from season 1, and then followed the entire series from the start of season two through the end of the series. Somewhere along the line I miraculously saw the original pilot. I still have not seen the majority of season one...

Of course, I still think the series is the greatest live action sci fi series I have ever seen. It rocks.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Feb 29, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I didn't think the music was bad.  It wasn't great, but at least they tried something new rather than going to the old orchestral well.




I remember the music for Crusade was beeps and boops.

It's been a while, but I'm pretty sure I remember that it turned me off just as soon as I heard it.

Brad


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## Meloncov (Mar 1, 2008)

jonesy said:
			
		

> I liked In The Beginning, but "And the Sky Full of Stars" and "Atonement" handled the subject better (and Sky even looked better). The Sheridan parts were the only interesting ones.




Rewatch these two scenes and say that again. (for those who haven't seen the series yet, the first one has some subtle spoilers and the second has none)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=se9FNdyKFtk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbBRrK9Q-rw


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## jonesy (Mar 3, 2008)

Meloncov said:
			
		

> Rewatch these two scenes and say that again.



Okay.

"I liked In The Beginning, but "And the Sky Full of Stars" and "Atonement" handled the subject better (and Sky even looked better). The Sheridan parts were the only interesting ones." 

Now, interesting or not, the rest was good. But Sky is still better.


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## Blackrat (Mar 7, 2008)

Reveille said:
			
		

> You know, Amazon's got a great deal right now. You can get the whole series for about $200. As soon as we move to Phoenix I'm getting a job.
> 
> There's too much I've missed out on over they years. Babylon 5 has always interested me. and I'd love to get the series, but right now $200 is a serious investment (4 months worth of savings) I can't make. After all expenses, birthdays and other holidays I really only get $66 a month from my SSD.
> 
> But, I will get a job, and I will buy the series!



Well not to brag or anything Rev but here's my collection of B5 . Hope you get yours as complete one day


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## Orius (Mar 8, 2008)

Ok quick note to anyone who's just getting into the DVDs now: don't watch JMS's commentaries until after you've seen the whole series.  He's not at all shy about dumping spoilers.


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## coriolis (Mar 10, 2008)

One piece of trivia that'll be interesting to RPG fans about B5: Lawrence 'Larry' DiTillio wrote many RPG publications (most notably _The Masks of Nyarlathotep_ for CoC, and also an article on poisons in an early issue of Dragon reprinted in Best of Dragon II) before becoming story editor/writer for about 40 Babylon 5 episodes: Larry DiTillio's B5 résumé


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## Darth K'Trava (Mar 15, 2008)

B5 was perhaps THE best sci-fi show out there, past or present! I've been catching up on eps I missed when they aired on tv. Airtimes here were erratic at best. I thought it was humorous that it was beating the pants off Star Trek DS9 and Trek had to revamp how they did storylines on DS9 as a result of B5's popularity.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 16, 2008)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I thought it was humorous that it was beating the pants off Star Trek DS9 and Trek had to revamp how they did storylines on DS9 as a result of B5's popularity.



Nevertheless, _DS9_ is a better follow-up to previous _Star Trek_ series (_TOS_ and _TNG_) than the ones that came after it (under the leadership of producer Brannon Braga).


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## Fallen Seraph (Mar 16, 2008)

Yeah of all the Trek shows, DS9 is by far my favourite.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 17, 2008)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> *coughcoughFIREFLYcough*



*coughcoughBIONICWOMANcough*


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## Darth K'Trava (Mar 17, 2008)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Nevertheless, _DS9_ is a better follow-up to previous _Star Trek_ series (_TOS_ and _TNG_) than the ones that came after it (under the leadership of producer Brannon Braga).




And I'm pretty sure that you can owe that, especially the last season or so of story arcs, to the influence of B5. 

I liked the later DS9 seasons; much better than some of the earlier ones.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 17, 2008)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And I'm pretty sure that you can owe that, especially the last season or so of story arcs, to the influence of B5.



The last season or the latter seasons when they took up the lengthy Dominion Threat/War arc?



			
				Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> I liked the later DS9 seasons; much better than some of the earlier ones.



Actually, I like the earlier seasons, when Sisko and Kira were at odds with each other. But yeah, unlike the two later spinoffs, the shows get progressively better (although _Enterprise_ fourth and final season made up for the three previous seasons' lackluster performance).


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## Fallen Seraph (Mar 17, 2008)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Actually, I like the earlier seasons, when Sisko and Kira were at odds with each other. But yeah, unlike the two later spinoffs, the shows get progressively better (although _Enterprise_ fourth and final season made up for the three previous seasons' lackluster performance).




I really, really wanted to like Enterprise but as soon as the first episode aired and they completely screwed up contact between Klingons and Humans and then Romulans and Humans I was off.

I was soooooo looking forward to them doing the Romulan vs. Human War where they are using nuclear weapons in Earth's orbit.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Mar 18, 2008)

Uh, guys?  This thread is about Babylon 5, that other sci-fi show with the space station...  Can we keep the Star Trek out of it - or at a mimimum keep the Star Trek only so much as it applies to the original post?


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## Mark (Mar 18, 2008)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Uh, guys?  This thread is about Babylon 5, that other sci-fi show with the space station...  Can we keep the Star Trek out of it - or at a mimimum keep the Star Trek only so much as it applies to the original post?





You could just use the split thread feature and peel the ST stuff off to its own discussion.


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## Orius (Mar 18, 2008)

Darth K'Trava said:
			
		

> And I'm pretty sure that you can owe that, especially the last season or so of story arcs, to the influence of B5.
> 
> I liked the later DS9 seasons; much better than some of the earlier ones.




It might be partially B5 influence, it also might be the producers.  DS9 largely hit its stride when Ira Steven Behr finally took over as Executive Producer, around the middle of Season 3.  He also didn't stubbornly stick with plotlines that didn't work; if they weren't working out, he dumped them.


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## Ranger REG (Mar 18, 2008)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Uh, guys?  This thread is about Babylon 5, that other sci-fi show with the space station...  Can we keep the Star Trek out of it - or at a mimimum keep the Star Trek only so much as it applies to the original post?



Will there be more _B5_ spin-offs? For a show that did well (and three seasons longer than _TOS_), you would think the franchise would roll out more series, but each of the spin-off got cut tragically short. I don't know why since I'm not a cable subscriber, so I've been hearing about network meddling with the development.

Is JMS done with _B5_ TV? What about a _B5_ film?


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## Blackrat (Mar 18, 2008)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Will there be more _B5_ spin-offs? For a show that did well (and three seasons longer than _TOS_), you would think the franchise would roll out more series, but each of the spin-off got cut tragically short. I don't know why since I'm not a cable subscriber, so I've been hearing about network meddling with the development.
> 
> Is JMS done with _B5_ TV? What about a _B5_ film?



He is planning on doing more of those _Lost Tales_ DVD's but that's about it for now. There's supposed to come at least two more of them.


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## Ruined (Mar 18, 2008)

I wanted to chime in on Crusade. I was really hopeful for the show, but the music score was appalling. Up until that point, I hadn't realized how much the music behind a show affected my enjoyment. Still, the premise was good and I imagine it would have fared better had it been shown in the proper order.  =P


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## Kid Charlemagne (Mar 18, 2008)

Blackrat said:
			
		

> He is planning on doing more of those _Lost Tales_ DVD's but that's about it for now. There's supposed to come at least two more of them.




Incidentally, I'm hoping that these work out and provide incentive for other folks to try this distribution route.


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## Storm Raven (Mar 18, 2008)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> Will there be more _B5_ spin-offs? For a show that did well (and three seasons longer than _TOS_), you would think the franchise would roll out more series, but each of the spin-off got cut tragically short. I don't know why since I'm not a cable subscriber, so I've been hearing about network meddling with the development.




Network meddling had a major part in killing _Crusade_ - there is an infamous points letter in which, among other things, a network executive stated that JMS should look to professional wrestling as a guide for how to write action scenes and develop characters through conflict. The network also did something that greatly affected _Firefly_ - in a show that had a story progression and characters that changed as the series went on, they decided to show the series episodes out of order.

_Legend of the Rangers_ was just awful. I don't know what happened there.



> _Is JMS done with B5 TV? What about a B5 film?_




The original _B5_ series was developed as a self-contained 5-year story, and was executed as such. _Crusade_ was a different story set in the same universe, but suffered as a result, because it wasn't simply a close of B5 and was mishandled the network. The B5 novels are all pretty good, and take on various aspects of the story, fleshing out areas that the series itself alluded to but didn't explore - the Telepath War, the liberation of Centauri Prime, what the heck the Techno-mages were up to and so on.

But _Legend of the Rangers_ was awful. It is a shame that that was G'Kar's last performance. JMS moved on and did some other work, notably _Jeremiah_, but ran into conflict with network executives there too. I doubt JMS will do many more projects without being certain he is free of newtork interference.

I have most of his script books, and the commentary he wrote in them gives a clear idea of the sort of idiocy he faced on a regular basis from television exceutives. It is clear that being a television executive doesn't require you to actually understand what makes shows work, you just have to mouth certain platitudes about how people want sex and violence and action all the time, and make sure you push for every character in the show to be between the ages of 17 and 25 and you will be named vice-president of programming.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 15, 2010)

The episodes are now available through the WB website -

Babylon 5: Watch Full Episodes on TheWB.com

(and to view instantly on Netflix, too).


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## Vigilance (Aug 15, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> While it is (unfortunately) true that the first half of season 1 was pretty weak (especially given the fantastic nature of seasons 2-4, and parts of 5), I still can't get behind watching ITB first. Better simply to acknowledge going in that the series takes some time to get going, and that it's worth waiting for it to do so, than to spoil such major plot points.




Or just not watch the first season.

I always felt starting with Season 2 was a much better option for introducing folks to the series. Season 1 is bad enough to turn a lot of folks off the series altogether in my experience.


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## Victim (Aug 15, 2010)

Maybe watch the pilot or the Gathering for an introduction to the characters, that one episode where they rescue the survivors of Babylon 4, and then the best episode of Season One, Signs and Portents. Then move on to season two.


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## Mouseferatu (Aug 15, 2010)

Vigilance said:


> Or just not watch the first season.
> 
> I always felt starting with Season 2 was a much better option for introducing folks to the series. Season 1 is bad enough to turn a lot of folks off the series altogether in my experience.




Too many major plot points and characters are introduced in season one to just skip it. There are a bunch of specific _episodes_ that can be skipped, though.


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## jonesy (Aug 15, 2010)

Mark CMG said:


> The episodes are now available through the WB website -
> 
> Babylon 5: Watch Full Episodes on TheWB.com



"The WB can only be viewed in the United States."

Looking back two years of this thread it's a bit sad that Lost Tales didn't amount to anything.


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## Orius (Aug 15, 2010)

Some of them are also on Hulu, but last time I was there it was only the first two seaons.



Vigilance said:


> Or just not watch the first season.
> 
> I always felt starting with Season 2 was a much better option for introducing folks to the series. Season 1 is bad enough to turn a lot of folks off the series altogether in my experience.




No, there are a few episodes from the first season that are relatively important.  Even the seemingly non-important episodes introduce stuff used later on.  

The important ones to watch are:

Midnight on the Firing Line
The Parliament of Dreams (optional)
Mind War
And the Sky Full of Stars
*Signs and Portents*
A Voice in the Wilderness, Part I
A Voice in the Wilderness, Part II
Babylon Squared
Crysalis

There is some stuff throughout the first season that becomes important later, but much of it's scattered, and might not matter much if you skip it.  There are of hints and stuff I really didn't notice until watching some of the episodes again.

The Gathering can be skipped.  I got into the show without watching it originally, and I wasn't lost.


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## jonesy (Aug 15, 2010)

Orius said:


> Some of them are also on Hulu, but last time I was there it was only the first two seaons.



Same thing.

"Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States."


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## John Crichton (Aug 15, 2010)

Mouseferatu said:


> Too many major plot points and characters are introduced in season one to just skip it. There are a bunch of specific _episodes_ that can be skipped, though.



Just finished re-watching S1 over the last few months.  I'd agree that there are certainly some eps that can be skipped as they have zero impact on the rest of the series.  However, there are many eps of those that are actually pretty damn entertaining on their own.  I'd say just pop in the discs and watch from the start.


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 15, 2010)

I agree with John. I think the first season included some great standalone episodes as well as some important arc episodes. Coupled with that, I preferred Sinclair to Sheridan as a commander. 

For instance, the episode 'by any means necessary' bad an excellent premise that just doesn't turn up in scifi much - and a great resolution too.


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## MarkB (Aug 15, 2010)

Note for UK satellite viewers: If this thread revival has inspired you to check out the series, FX are currently screening it in their weekday evening slots, and are due to rotate back to season 1 on 22nd September.


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 16, 2010)

Orius said:


> The important ones to watch are:
> 
> Midnight on the Firing Line
> The Parliament of Dreams (optional)
> ...




I would add to this The Quality of Mercy, for a few reasons: 



Spoiler



The alien machine, the Minbari exception for lying, stim addiction, Franklin's overall rebelliousness, and the hilarious Londo/Lennier playing poker scenes


.  While only the first is really a big plot point, the rest inform a lot about the direction the show takes.  Additionally, it's right in that last group of important episodes (Wilderness, B-Squared, Mercy, Chrysalis) that casual viewers may as well watch it.  Finally, it showcases how JMS will set things up years before they come to fruition.


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## Orius (Aug 16, 2010)

I'd say really, there's only 1 element to Quality of Mercy that's really important, and that it probably won't matter too much if the episode is skipped.  Said element is covered pretty well in the later episodes where it's important.

Anyway, Season 1 isn't terribly bad, just fall back on the list I gave if the episodes start feeling dull.


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## Sutekh (Aug 17, 2010)

I enjoyed the entire first season as I thought Sinclair was a particuarly good character. I never did like the character of Sheridan who was meant to be more 'heroic' or 'action based' than Sinclair, who seemed soft spoken but was direct and forceful when he needed to be. I also always preferred Talia as the telepath. 

What happened to Sinclair later was interesting but i thought he was a wasted character.

I enjoyed Seasons 2-4, but did not enjoy 5.


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 17, 2010)

Sutekh said:


> What happened to Sinclair later was interesting but i thought he was a wasted character.




I agree. I remember at the time that there were some rumours of contractual issues, IMDB says that the actor wanted to leave, who knows what the real story was. I would have been hugely pleased if Sinclair had grown in all the plot hooks from series 1 through to the end though.



> I enjoyed Seasons 2-4, but did not enjoy 5.




I disliked season 5 immensely, and wouldn't bother ever watching it again. The loss of Ivanova, replacing her with a character with a 'magically produced' relationship with Sheriden, none of that worked for me. I felt that the closing episode of Season 4 (when they didn't know whether there would be a season 5) was a perfect end to the series.

Cheers


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## Merkuri (Aug 17, 2010)

Plane Sailing said:


> I disliked season 5 immensely, and wouldn't bother ever watching it again. The loss of Ivanova, replacing her with a character with a 'magically produced' relationship with Sheriden, none of that worked for me. I felt that the closing episode of Season 4 (when they didn't know whether there would be a season 5) was a perfect end to the series.




I was told that the series climaxed in season 4 because when the show was originally created the main writer, J. Michael Straczynski, planned out five seasons.  Then the show wasn't doing so good at the end of the first season, so they asked him to cut it back to 4 seasons.  He complained, but cut back his epic plot.  Then it started to get popular in seasons 3 (or somewhere thereabouts), and they asked him to bring it back to 5 seasons.  He complained again, because things had already been put in motion, and the show had too much momentum for it not to climax in season 4, so he largely kept the 4-season script and just added a fifth "epilogue" season on the end.

So the way I understand it, they knew very well that there would be a season 5, but Straczynski didn't want to punish the viewers by drawing out his grand ending, which is why it looks like the series was going to end in season 4. 

I spent one summer marathon-watching seasons 1-4 of this show, and the person lending me the videos told me not to bother with season 5, so I largely haven't seen it, and I don't feel like I'm missing anything.


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## jonesy (Aug 17, 2010)

Season 5 has one of my favourite episodes, Objects in Motion, which has an awesome reveal at the end for season 4 fans 



Spoiler



I'm talking about the video conference and Number One. =)


.

And Sleeping in Light is a pretty heartwarming ending to the series.

But the rest of season 5? I don't even remember what happened. Centauri something. Telepath something. Garibaldi did what? G'Kar went where? Just a blur.


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## John Crichton (Aug 17, 2010)

S5 is a mixed bag but by no means did I consider it a waste of time.  A few WTF eps mixed in with some other things that I really like that have already been mentioned in this thread.


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## stonegod (Aug 17, 2010)

S5 has the "true" ending to the series (planned since the beginning of the show, and actually filled in S4). Day of the Dead is good, and written by Neil Gaiman. I liked the Lennier arc, but I'm a sucker for 



Spoiler



heroic falls from grace


. The rest is meh. But yes, anything with Lochley is forgettable.


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## Umbran (Aug 17, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> I was told that the series climaxed in season 4 because when the show was originally created the main writer, J. Michael Straczynski, planned out five seasons.  Then the show wasn't doing so good at the end of the first season, so they asked him to cut it back to 4 seasons.




My understanding of it was similar, but the issue arose at the end of Season 3.  At that point, they would commit to a 4th, but not yet a 5th, season.  So, the compacting was done very late in the game, not early on.

Add to this the fact that Claudia Christian's (Ivanova's) departure was not part of the plan.


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## jonesy (Aug 17, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Add to this the fact that Claudia Christian's (Ivanova's) departure was not part of the plan.



For me Ivanova was the glue that held the station together. When the character departed the show stumbled.


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## MarkB (Aug 18, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> I was told that the series climaxed in season 4 because when the show was originally created the main writer, J. Michael Straczynski, planned out five seasons.  Then the show wasn't doing so good at the end of the first season, so they asked him to cut it back to 4 seasons.  He complained, but cut back his epic plot.  Then it started to get popular in seasons 3 (or somewhere thereabouts), and they asked him to bring it back to 5 seasons.  He complained again, because things had already been put in motion, and the show had too much momentum for it not to climax in season 4, so he largely kept the 4-season script and just added a fifth "epilogue" season on the end.




That doesn't match my recollection at the time. Season 4 was considered to be the last season late enough into production that the series-finale episode, Sleeping in Light, was written and largely produced before season 5 was green-lighted, though it was held back from broadcast until the end of season 5.


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## jonesy (Aug 18, 2010)

Here's jms himself answering to the S4/S5 thing in the middle of S4:

Re: I wish JMS had ignored the season 4 / season 5 thing. (7 Mar 1997)

"I've isolated the threads that would go into a year 5; if we get year 5,
I'll pull the triggers on that, and we'll do those stories.  If not, those
threads will go into the sequel.  Either way, we're covered...because I
can't ask fans to stick around for 4 or 5 years of a show, and not achieve
resolution."


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 21, 2010)

Count me in as another Sinclair fan. I liked the character.


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