# The New D&D Adventure Is - Tomb of Annihilation!



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Tomb of Annihilation is in the Forgotten Realms set in the Lost Continent of Chult - Away from the Sword Coast (the hosts of the live stream are very interested with undead dinosaurs). Acererak is, as many predicted, the source of this plotline as the Archlich is more or less "eating" resurrection magic from the rest of the Forgotten Realms and causing a zombie apocalypse. Pendleton Ward from Adventure Time is a creative consultant on this adventure.


View attachment 84778​
More updates will be coming through the Dungeons & Dragons marathon live stream live on Twitch throughout the weekend.


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Tomb of Annihilation!!!!!


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Undead TREX!!!!


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## Prakriti (Jun 2, 2017)

_Tomb of Annihilation_, set in Chult and featuring Acererak. 

Called it.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

It is Chult. "Lost continent"
Undead, and dinosaurs. And undead dinosaurs. 

Yup, it is Acererak. Described now as a "lich". The "strongest lich".
Oh, and the hook of people ressurected are now wasting away.

So, yup, pretty much all we guessed here over the last couple months...


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## Ramayana (Jun 2, 2017)

Dinosaurs *_*


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Pendelton Ward!


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## Zaukrie (Jun 2, 2017)

It's a great way to introduce a new product.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

So it's two days - twenty-four hours - mostly of live streamed games. They're not playing the adventure per se, but homebrew module being inspired by the adventure. 

Sept 8 and the 19th release. 

"Indiana Jones meets zombies" was the pitch.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

"Zombie T-Rex that's vomiting up zombies."


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Meet Grinder Mode! 

crunch crunch crunch


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## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> It is Chult. "Lost continent"
> Undead, and dinosaurs. And undead dinosaurs.
> 
> Yup, it is Acererak. Described now as a "lich". The "strongest lich".
> Oh, and the hook of people ressurected are now wasting away.



So, they're looting both Isle of Dread and Tomb of Horrors? Cool:

They should call it: The Lost Island Tomb of Dreadful Horrors. By the time LITDH made it out of anyone's mouth, it'd sound like "Hey, we're gonna play LICH, tonight."


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

There will be a "meat grinder mode". 
Harder death saves, no returning from the dead, etc.


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## Sunsword (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> So it's two days - twenty-four hours - mostly of live streamed games. They're not playing the adventure per se, but homebrew module being inspired by the adventure.
> 
> Sept 8 and the 19th release.
> 
> "Indiana Jones meets zombies" was the pitch.




That's a good description.


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## DEFCON 1 (Jun 2, 2017)

So the map of the island has the coast filled in and the players have to adventure in and fill in the rest of the map.

So it *does* have a small connection to _Isle of Dread_!  One point for me!  LOL!


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Mercule said:


> So, they're looting both Isle of Dread and Tomb of Horrors? Cool:
> 
> They should call it: The Lost Island Tomb of Dreadful Horrors. By the time LITDH made it out of anyone's mouth, it'd sound like "Hey, we're gonna play LICH, tonight."




Kinda...

Zombies and undead are *really* being played up. And Acererak has a very different a hook, a plan beyond sitting in a tomb trolling adventurers.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

So far, it sounds like _Storm King's Thunder_, it will be a gazetteer as well as a storyline. A big guide to Chult... plus adventure.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 2, 2017)

It's appears Acererak is taking on his form from the DMG cover.


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## ChapolimX (Jun 2, 2017)

According to Mearls the book will be like a Gazetteer of Chult with an adventure on top. This is an interesting approach!


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Aaaaand the first live game has begun. So likely no more announcements for a while.

No news on minis or _Neverwinter_ expansions. Or other support. And no news of the fall hardcover.


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## Rhineglade (Jun 2, 2017)

Initial thoughts?  Obviously way too early to tell.  It was just announced but it always kind of 'busts my bagel' when WotC takes an historically Greyhawk location and transports it to over-developed Forgotten Realms.  This is my opinion of course.  WotC owns the rights and may do as they see fit.  However, as a consumer, I also reserve the right to voice my opinion.

My initial thought is: just sounds like WotC is desperate for material.  Rather than developing something new and exciting, let's just throw in a re-hashed Tomb of Horrors.  But wait- dinosaurs!  Yeah, dinosaurs.  Kids love dinosaurs.  Oy vay.


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Gotta keep us watching.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> It's appears Acererak is taking on his form from the DMG cover.




I *really* hope they explain that. I'll be annoyed if it's just like Tiamat being trapped in the Nine Hells. 
"Here's a big change to canon for no reason other than it works with our story, that we couldn't even bother spending a single sentence justifying ..."


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## JeffB (Jun 2, 2017)

Rhineglade said:


> Initial thoughts?  Obviously way too early to tell.  It was just announced but it always kind of 'busts my bagel' when WotC takes an historically Greyhawk location and transports it to over-developed Forgotten Realms.  This is my opinion of course.  WotC owns the rights and may do as they see fit.  However, as a consumer, I also reserve the right to voice my opinion.
> 
> My initial thought is: just sounds like WotC is desperate for material.  Rather than developing something new and exciting, let's just through in a re-hashed Tomb of Horrors.  But wait- dinosaurs!  Yeah, dinosaurs.  Kids love dinosaurs.  Oy vay.




Im with ya.

And a.Zombie Apocalypse. How original. I guess they want to capitalize on that mainstream lameness.

They are not even trying anymore.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I *really* hope they explain that. I'll be annoyed if it's just like Tiamat being trapped in the Nine Hells.
> "Here's a big change to canon for no reason other than it works with our story, that we couldn't even bother spending a single sentence justifying ..."




Well she was trapped in the Nine Hells in the way that her Domain was there and she can't get to the Material Plane without a big ritual.


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## TheSwartz (Jun 2, 2017)

Name for the book?


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## kenmarable (Jun 2, 2017)

Although I keep hoping for them to keep expanding into other settings, I've always been a fan of Chult. So if they are doing more FR, Chult, dinosaurs, and exploration sounds exciting to me!

Oh, and as for another meaning of "Dust", Chris Perkins has titled his gaming session "Biting the Dust."


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jun 2, 2017)

Rhineglade said:


> Initial thoughts?  Obviously way too early to tell.  It was just announced but it always kind of 'busts my bagel' when WotC takes an historically Greyhawk location and transports it to over-developed Forgotten Realms.  This is my opinion of course.  WotC owns the rights and may do as they see fit.  However, as a consumer, I also reserve the right to voice my opinion.
> 
> My initial thought is: just sounds like WotC is desperate for material.  Rather than developing something new and exciting, let's just through in a re-hashed Tomb of Horrors.  But wait- dinosaurs!  Yeah, dinosaurs.  Kids love dinosaurs.  Oy vay.




WOTC is just very practical at this point. A lot of people are now running their games in FR. Adventurer's League takes place in FR and it would be very difficult logistics wise to run a season of AL in any other world.

Meanwhile, they are on a huge nostalgia kick lately. They scoured all of the existing adventures to find the essence of what made D&D fun in order to bring it back for 5e. It's fairly obvious that they found Isle of Dread and Tomb of Horrors and probably couldn't decide which one they wanted to bring forward. So they combined the two of them.


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Tomb of Annihilation.


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## Zaukrie (Jun 2, 2017)

Hopefully this doesn't turn into another ten pages, like all threads, about how FR is the worst. We've read it already. I really hope we get to talk about this product....


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## timbannock (Jun 2, 2017)

Rhineglade said:


> My initial thought is: just sounds like WotC is desperate for material.  Rather than developing something new and exciting, let's just through in a re-hashed Tomb of Horrors.  But wait- dinosaurs!  Yeah, dinosaurs.  Kids love dinosaurs.  Oy vay.




What some see as desperate for material others see as a way to leverage existing material to create something that 1) hits the nostalgia buttons to draw in the existing crowd, and 2) has enough of a twist that new folks can jump in without having to read an encyclopedia's worth of background material...but if they enjoy doing that research, it's still there.

FR sells; we know this. Classic adventures sell; we know this. Wizards multimedia take on their yearly storylines appears to optimize how their entire business is setup; we're fairly sure of this based on recent earnings calls and chatter from Wizards' team. Nobody in a marketing department and few people playing in a game where planehopping and spelljamming are as common as they want it to be are going to care about separation of D&D canon elements when ignoring said canon leads to sales and content that people largely appear to be enjoying.

And in 30+ years, what's "new and exciting" is hardly something that doesn't include dungeons and wilderness exploration when it comes to D&D ;-P


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## DEFCON 1 (Jun 2, 2017)

JeffB said:


> Im with ya.
> 
> And a.Zombie Apocalypse. How original. I guess they want to capitalize on that mainstream lameness.
> 
> They are not even trying anymore.




Has there been an adventure they've done for 5E thus far where you thought they _were_ trying?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 2, 2017)

Its almost like Hollywood at this point.


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## vpuigdoller (Jun 2, 2017)

Have they mentioned the lvl range of the AP?


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## Patrick McGill (Jun 2, 2017)

I like that it's going to be a big sandbox that players can explore. That sounds exciting.


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Think Tomb Raider too. Jungles and weird stances on all that is D&D.


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## Prakriti (Jun 2, 2017)

ChapolimX said:


> According to Mearls the book will be like a Gazetteer of Chult with an adventure on top. This is an interesting approach!



Based on this, I think my plane-hopping prediction was wrong. With that much information on Chult, there's not going to be any space left over for the planes. But like other posters, I'd like at least a nominal explanation for how Acererak traversed the multiverse.



Zaukrie said:


> Hopefully this doesn't turn into another ten pages, like all threads, about how FR is the worst. We've read it already. I really hope we get to talk about this product....



Yep. I wish this forum's rules against edition warring extended to setting warring as well. Like, we get it, some people don't like FR. Good for them. But 5E is the current edition and FR is the current default setting. Kvetching doesn't help.


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## JeffB (Jun 2, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Has there been an adventure they've done for 5E thus far where you thought they _were_ trying?





phandelver was a fun sandbox.

Everything else has been a re-hash/fluff up of something Gary or Tracey came up with, jammed into the FR  with a  "twist".


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## Istbor (Jun 2, 2017)

Sounds interesting enough that I will check it out. Please note that I hate zombie Apocalypse stories.  They are so done to death. (Pun possibly intended)

I will keep my eyes on this one. Seems like there is already a fair bit of excitement for it.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Jun 2, 2017)

I'm thrilled with this next adventure + setting content. I was looking for a good adventure to set in Zendikar, using the Planeshift: X we've received this year. I'll run Tomb of Annihilation in Zendikar, Tyranny of Dragons in Amon-Keth, MiBG + LotCS in Kaladesh and Curse of Strahd in Innistrad as part of a big MT:G multiverse campaign. I'm sure my players will love the undead dinosaurs.....and try to keep one as a pet....


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

vincegetorix said:


> I'm thrilled with this next adventure + setting content. I was looking for a good adventure to set in Zendikar, using the Planeshift: X we've received this year. I'll run Tomb of Annihilation in Zendikar, Tyranny of Dragons in Amon-Keth, MiBG + LotCS in Kaladesh and Curse of Strahd in Innistrad as part of a big MT:G multiverse campaign. I'm sure my players will love the undead dinosaurs.....and try to keep one as a pet....




Me too.

I'm going to print out a HUGE map of chult and let the players fill it in as they explore. When were done we'll sign it all and put it on the wall!


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

JeffB said:


> Im with ya.
> 
> And a.Zombie Apocalypse. How original. I guess they want to capitalize on that mainstream lameness.
> 
> They are not even trying anymore.



That's a pretty cynical take...
They need an enemy to permeate the adventure at all levels. They've done dragons (and dragon cultists), elemental (and their cultists), demons and underdark, vampires, and giants.

Undead make sense. It's the "lich" storyline, and zombies are needed for that. 
They shouldn't avoid doing zombies just because they are/were popular. Not anymore than they should have avoided Strahd because vampires were huge. Or that they shouldn't do dinosaurs because those are perpetually popular. 



MonsterEnvy said:


> Well she was trapped in the Nine Hells in the way that her Domain was there and she can't get to the Material Plane without a big ritual.



Which doesn't seem to bother any of the other gods that dwell in Hell or the Abyss. 
And she wasn't portrayed as trapped before.

It was just lazy writing. The story they wanted to tell was Tiamat being summoned. And they just hand waved the why. Just... lame.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jun 2, 2017)

ChapolimX said:


> According to Mearls the book will be like a Gazetteer of Chult with an adventure on top. This is an interesting approach!



I like this approach - it was done in SKT for the North and now it sounds like we'll get a similar approach for Chult. If we're not going to get a full-fledged FRCS, then a piecemeal approach to updating the setting is a good (if somewhat more extended) substitute. Hopefully we'll see one out of every 2 or 3 APs go somewhere new and interesting (say Thay, Mulhorand, or even the Dalelands for a Myth Drannor adventure) and get a 60-page chapter like we got in SKT that describes and updates the region...


Jester David said:


> Aaaaand the first live game has begun. So likely no more announcements for a while.
> 
> No news on minis or _Neverwinter_ expansions. Or other support. And no news of the fall hardcover.





Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which doesn't seem to bother any of the other gods that dwell in Hell or the Abyss.
> And she wasn't portrayed as trapped before.
> 
> It was just lazy writing. The story they wanted to tell was Tiamat being summoned. And they just hand waved the why. Just... lame.




No all Gods need to be summoned now if they dwell on a different plane. Thats part of the new lore of 5e. They can't actually just go to the Material Plane anymore.


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

I wonder what the resurection issue is going to play out in AL. Considering I run a TON of it.


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## FaerunHistory (Jun 2, 2017)

Set in the Chult, jungle area inspired by things like Conan and Indian Jones. - Also not seen it's own source book for 24 years, so hopefully lots of new interesting stuff. - 

Wild dwarves, Pterafolk, Tabaxi, Yuan-ti cults and Jungle Goblins. It will be an interesting adventure.
Made a video about the Lore of Chult here, if you are interested:
[video=youtube_share;CtTlPN5N_08]https://youtu.be/CtTlPN5N_08[/video]


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## Greg Benage (Jun 2, 2017)

This sounds awesome! I love the idea of a pulpy exploration-focused campaign. Also love meat-grinder mode!


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## discosoc (Jun 2, 2017)

Still nothing for other settings?  I'm getting really tired of the ironically named Forgotten Realms.


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## Warmaster Horus (Jun 2, 2017)

Okay, then.  Love to have a lich villain and some (non-Barovian) undead threats.


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## CydKnight (Jun 2, 2017)

Greg Benage said:


> This sounds awesome! I love the idea of a pulpy exploration-focused campaign. Also love meat-grinder mode!



Interestingly I am on this type of adventure now also coincidentally to Chult searching for the _Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan_.


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## Abstruse (Jun 2, 2017)

I mean at least they're finally off the Sword Coast... Baby steps...


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## ppaladin123 (Jun 2, 2017)

What is the source of the zombies? Resurrection magic is failing/incomplete and causing zombies instead of fully returned individuals? Or those who were resurrected are devolving into zombies? Isn't resurrection high-level/rare enough to sort of limit this as a source of plague?


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## Istbor (Jun 2, 2017)

Sounds interesting enough that I will check it out. Please note that I hate zombie Apocalypse stories.  They are so done to death. (Pun possibly intended)

I will keep my eyes on this one. Seems like there is already a fair bit of excitement for it.


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## Greg Benage (Jun 2, 2017)

ppaladin123 said:


> What is the source of the zombies? Resurrection magic is failing/incomplete and causing zombies instead of fully returned individuals? Or those who were resurrected are devolving into zombies? Isn't resurrection high-level/rare enough to sort of limit this as a source of plague?




Maybe "everybody is already infected," so they turn into zombies when they die, so no one can die and be resurrected.


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## nicolas.carrillos (Jun 2, 2017)

While I don't love the FR, I am interested in this product. Is this truly the leaked cover? Scary 

*Moderator note: No politics on these boards, please.
-Darkness*


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> No all Gods need to be summoned now if they dwell on a different plane. Thats part of the new lore of 5e. They can't actually just go to the Material Plane anymore.




Where was that said? Is that in Tyranny of Dragons somewhere?


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## ppaladin123 (Jun 2, 2017)

I suppose Kelemvor and the doomguides (great band name) will figure prominently in this story. Possible Myrkul too since he won't like anyone muscling in on his territory.  That new cleric domain (player version of death domain) could show up in an associated book.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Where was that said? Is that in Tyranny of Dragons somewhere?




The Sundering stuff.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I like this approach - it was done in SKT for the North and now it sounds like we'll get a similar approach for Chult. If we're not going to get a full-fledged FRCS, then a piecemeal approach to updating the setting is a good (if somewhat more extended) substitute. Hopefully we'll see one out of every 2 or 3 APs go somewhere new and interesting (say Thay, Mulhorand, or even the Dalelands for a Myth Drannor adventure) and get a 60-page chapter like we got in SKT that describes and updates the region..



It makes sense from a design perspective. They can look at each region and what makes it cool at a slower pace, and if they decide to do a larger book much of that updating will be done. Rather than having to do it all on a deadline, likely spending an afternoon on each region.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> The Sundering stuff.



That's... vague. A novel? An adventure? Was it explicitly stated as that or just implied? 

I know in the podcast and interviews they stated they wanted the gods to be more "hands-off and distant". But that doesn't really mean they *can't* move between worlds. 
Plus, it still doesn't explain why Tianat was "trapped". Even if she can't go to the material plane, why not the outer planes?


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## CapnZapp (Jun 2, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> Have they mentioned the lvl range of the AP?



You can probably assume 1-10 unless you hear differently.


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## Prism (Jun 2, 2017)

There was a hint to this in the last Ed Greenwood book which I didn't realise at the time. Clerics were having difficulty casting raise dead. Probably relates to this 'eating resurrection magic'.


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## kenmarable (Jun 2, 2017)

ppaladin123 said:


> What is the source of the zombies? Resurrection magic is failing/incomplete and causing zombies instead of fully returned individuals? Or those who were resurrected are devolving into zombies? Isn't resurrection high-level/rare enough to sort of limit this as a source of plague?




From a comment by Mearls, I don't know the original spawning of the zombies, but it sounds like it spreads like classic zombie infection - if you are killed by a zombie, then you come back as a zombie. Specifically he mentioned a zombie t-rex and that "since a t-rex likes to swallow what it kills, it's victims then turn into zombies, which the t-rex vomits up."

So an undead t-rex that vomits more undead definitely sounds like the potential for an insane encounter!


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## wicked cool (Jun 2, 2017)

at Pax East Chris Perkins had one of his players going through this so my guess is its "worldwide" and the hook is investigate/stop Lich


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## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Jun 2, 2017)

ChapolimX said:


> According to Mearls the book will be like a Gazetteer of Chult with an adventure on top. This is an interesting approach!




I wonder if we will also see a Chult adventuring guide with some player options like the swords coast adventerurs guide.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> That's... vague. A novel? An adventure? Was it explicitly stated as that or just implied?
> 
> I know in the podcast and interviews they stated they wanted the gods to be more "hands-off and distant". But that doesn't really mean they *can't* move between worlds.
> Plus, it still doesn't explain why Tianat was "trapped". Even if she can't go to the material plane, why not the outer planes?




She can go to the Outer planes, but Asmodeus is more or less sticking her in the job of a guard dog.


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## hawkeyefan (Jun 2, 2017)

I wish they used new threats and locations instead of existing ones....that way I could complain that they ignore existing lore in favor of trying to be nu and kewl!!!!!

Seriously....they can't win. Personally, I like that they draw on existing lore and give it a new spin. I've used the material they've put out to varying degrees in my game...and Chult figures prominently in my game, and I've been thinking of what I can do with Acererak, so I think I'll be getting this for sure. 

Definitely sounds cool!


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## timbannock (Jun 2, 2017)

They just posted a photo of "Xanathar's Guide to Everything"

https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/870710703111393281


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## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

Zaukrie said:


> Hopefully this doesn't turn into another ten pages, like all threads, about how FR is the worst. We've read it already. I really hope we get to talk about this product....



Well, I was about to say: Hey, cool. It's set on a lost continent, has undead and dinosaurs, which all sounds pretty generic. I don't know, well, anything about Chult. If this spends most of the time on the lost continent, it could be a blast.

Then, someone posted that it was (apparently) announced that this is a Chult source book that happens to have an adventure included.

So, my discussion on the actual product is that I hope that's an incorrect statement. I won't otherwise threadcrap, but do consider my disappointment in this being a Realms product to be as relevant as anyone who says, "Awesome, more Realms" or those who are excited or disappointed by undead dinosaurs. Those are practically the only things to discuss, right now.


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## darjr (Jun 2, 2017)

Xanathars guide to everything?!

OK that's cool.


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## timbannock (Jun 2, 2017)

Mercule said:


> Well, I was about to say: Hey, cool. It's set on a lost continent, has undead and dinosaurs, which all sounds pretty generic. I don't know, well, anything about Chult. If this spends most of the time on the lost continent, it could be a blast.
> 
> Then, someone posted that it was (apparently) announced that this is a Chult source book that happens to have an adventure included.
> 
> So, my discussion on the actual product is that I hope that's an incorrect statement. I won't otherwise threadcrap, but do consider my disappointment in this being a Realms product to be as relevant as anyone who says, "Awesome, more Realms" or those who are excited or disappointed by undead dinosaurs. Those are practically the only things to discuss, right now.




I could be very wrong, but my prediction:

The adventure will involve a hexcrawl-like travel section to hit various pre-determined spots as well as include a bunch of "random" adventure locations. As the party explores the hexes, information is written up about the locales and plenty of adventure hooks ensue.

In other words, while it can act as a campaign guide, it will be presented as an adventure, in much the same way Isle of Dread was.


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## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

hawkeyefan said:


> I wish they used new threats and locations instead of existing ones....that way I could complain that they ignore existing lore in favor of trying to be nu and kewl!!!!!
> 
> Seriously....they can't win. Personally, I like that they draw on existing lore and give it a new spin. I've used the material they've put out to varying degrees in my game...and Chult figures prominently in my game, and I've been thinking of what I can do with Acererak, so I think I'll be getting this for sure.
> 
> Definitely sounds cool!



All it would take is a "Van Ritchen's Guide to Zombie Guts" or "Tenser's Guide to Everything" and they could say, "We're using IP from other settings, not just the Realms."


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## guachi (Jun 2, 2017)

Cautiously optimistic. Not a fan of Acererak or undead, but Indiana Jones style exploration is perfect for D&D.

Though Tomb of Dread would be a sweet title. Combining Gazetteer and adventure is probably the best way to do things. FR suffers from far too much cruft. Give people enough to play the game and nothing more.


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## Blue (Jun 2, 2017)

ppaladin123 said:


> What is the source of the zombies? Resurrection magic is failing/incomplete and causing zombies instead of fully returned individuals? Or those who were resurrected are devolving into zombies? Isn't resurrection high-level/rare enough to sort of limit this as a source of plague?




I was going to snark that it's the Realms, every little hommlet has a cleric of high enough level to cast it.

But if it's just as you put forth, then it's only the RICH and POWERFUL turning into zombies.  I'm sure that will still get lots of adventurer attention.


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## Prakriti (Jun 2, 2017)

neuronphaser said:


> They just posted a photo of "Xanathar's Guide to Everything"
> 
> https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/870710703111393281



Hm. Two possibilities, I guess: 

(1) This is "Midway," the new mechanical expansion. The cover is pretty different from all the other books, but I can imagine it being the "limited edition" version, like the in-store version of _Volo's Guide_.
(2) This is a prop for one of the stream games.

I wonder...


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## vecna00 (Jun 2, 2017)

neuronphaser said:


> They just posted a photo of "Xanathar's Guide to Everything"
> 
> https://twitter.com/Wizards_DnD/status/870710703111393281




That gives me some hope....but I'm not trying to get my hopes up at this point.


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## hawkeyefan (Jun 2, 2017)

Mercule said:


> All it would take is a "Van Ritchen's Guide to Zombie Guts" or "Tenser's Guide to Everything" and they could say, "We're using IP from other settings, not just the Realms."




Sure, they could do that. But I don't know how that would go over....I mean they're using Acererak here, and some folks seem upset. Strahd, Mordenkainen, now Acererak....they are using IP from multiple settings. 

I suppose I just don't see the hard division that most folks see between the settings. I use many of them, and I see them as all being connected anyway. This kind of cross-pollination has been something I've don for years, so I don't mind it at all.


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## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

neuronphaser said:


> I could be very wrong, but my prediction:
> 
> The adventure will involve a hexcrawl-like travel section to hit various pre-determined spots as well as include a bunch of "random" adventure locations. As the party explores the hexes, information is written up about the locales and plenty of adventure hooks ensue.
> 
> In other words, while it can act as a campaign guide, it will be presented as an adventure, in much the same way Isle of Dread was.



It's a fine line. Chult is far enough away from "mainline" Realms (Sword Coast) that I'm not going to rule out an adventure set there. But... I don't really want something that could be classified as a Realms source book, even by stretching things.

On the other hand, not knowing anything about Chult, my first impression was that I might be able to easily convert this to use Xen'drix as the lost continent, using  Q'Barra, or Shadow Marshes instead of Chult, for that part of the adventure. It really depends on how much it tries to define Chult vs. using a place names and just telling a good story about undead dinosaurs and a crazy lich.


----------



## Abstruse (Jun 2, 2017)

"WotC is only using Forgotten Realms!"

The last season of AL and the big published adventure in 2016 was Curse of Strahd in Ravenloft.

"Only using Forgotten Realms!!"

They could bring Hickman, Weis, Baker, Stark, and Cook to design a sprawling mega-adventure that goes from Planescape to Dragonlance to Dark Sun to Eberron but, if it started in Waterdeep, everyone would STILL complain everything was Forgotten Realms...


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> She can go to the Outer planes, but Asmodeus is more or less sticking her in the job of a guard dog.




Which would be fine, but the adventures don't say that. Or even mention Asmodeus. 
Instead, the mention Tiamat being "banished" to the Nine Hells and "imprisoned". It's pretty clear that "long ago" she was trapped in the Hells. But that totally doesn't mesh with her last past apperences, as recently as the 4e _Scales of War_ adventure path.


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## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

hawkeyefan said:


> Sure, they could do that. But I don't know how that would go over....I mean they're using Acererak here, and some folks seem upset. Strahd, Mordenkainen, now Acererak....they are using IP from multiple settings.



Speaking for myself, the rub is that the IP is commingling in odd ways. In the case of the Realms, they're taking stuff that belongs in other settings and just dropping it into the Realms. But, throwing Mordenkainen into CoS was just weird -- despite being a fan of both Ravenloft and Greyhawk, that's something I decided to exclude from that adventure. In fairness, it didn't bother me like throwing in the Five Factions did, though. 



> I suppose I just don't see the hard division that most folks see between the settings. I use many of them, and I see them as all being connected anyway. This kind of cross-pollination has been something I've don for years, so I don't mind it at all.



For naming, I really don't give a rat's behind about dividing the settings. If they did Volo's Guide to Monsters, Van Richten's Guide to Monster Hunting, The Morgrave University's Handbook of Everything, and Mordenkainen's Tome of Arcane Lore, I think it'd be great and would be all over every one of them. It's the monotony of the Realms.


----------



## JRedmond (Jun 2, 2017)

Don't forget about Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

View attachment 84783



Mercule said:


> Speaking for myself, the rub is that the IP is commingling in odd ways. In the case of the Realms, they're taking stuff that belongs in other settings and just dropping it into the Realms. But, throwing Mordenkainen into CoS was just weird -- despite being a fan of both Ravenloft and Greyhawk, that's something I decided to exclude from that adventure. In fairness, it didn't bother me like throwing in the Five Factions did, though.
> 
> 
> For naming, I really don't give a rat's behind about dividing the settings. If they did Volo's Guide to Monsters, Van Richten's Guide to Monster Hunting, The Morgrave University's Handbook of Everything, and Mordenkainen's Tome of Arcane Lore, I think it'd be great and would be all over every one of them. It's the monotony of the Realms.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Jun 2, 2017)

Mercule said:


> Speaking for myself, the rub is that the IP is commingling in odd ways. In the case of the Realms, they're taking stuff that belongs in other settings and just dropping it into the Realms. But, throwing Mordenkainen into CoS was just weird -- despite being a fan of both Ravenloft and Greyhawk, that's something I decided to exclude from that adventure. In fairness, it didn't bother me like throwing in the Five Factions did, though.
> 
> 
> For naming, I really don't give a rat's behind about dividing the settings. If they did Volo's Guide to Monsters, Van Richten's Guide to Monster Hunting, The Morgrave University's Handbook of Everything, and Mordenkainen's Tome of Arcane Lore, I think it'd be great and would be all over every one of them. It's the monotony of the Realms.




Gotcha. I would probably be just as interested, because ultimately, it's just a name on a book. It's a gimmick either way.

I mean, I don't want to say that I don't understand where the sentiment is coming from....I get it that people want the settings they like to be supported. But I also get the decision WotC has made to approach things as they currently are, and I know that I can actually take any of their products and place it in any world that I want, but that does require more effort on my part. 

But I don't want to sidetrack the thread too much. There are already threads about FR and how it is the only setting and so on. 

The way I look at it is that the adventure is about a mysterious jungle island where some evil lich is up to some major evil mojo....and that has me stoked.


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## CM (Jun 2, 2017)

It has the D&D logo on it, so it leads me to believe it may be more than just interesting artwork.

View attachment 84784


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## vecna00 (Jun 2, 2017)

Mercule said:


> For naming, I really don't give a rat's behind about dividing the settings. If they did Volo's Guide to Monsters, Van Richten's Guide to Monster Hunting, The Morgrave University's Handbook of Everything, and Mordenkainen's Tome of Arcane Lore, I think it'd be great and would be all over every one of them. It's the monotony of the Realms.




I'm on board for all of those. If you can make that happen, that would be fantastic!


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> Hm. Two possibilities, I guess:
> 
> (1) This is "Midway," the new mechanical expansion. The cover is pretty different from all the other books, but I can imagine it being the "limited edition" version, like the in-store version of _Volo's Guide_.
> (2) This is a prop for one of the stream games.
> ...



Ugh. I hope it's not another special cover. Once was a neat gimmick. Two gets annoying and stops being special. 

As names go it's more blah. It doesn't really tell you what the book is about. It's very no descriptive. It doesn't seem like book you'd go to for more classes or traps. 

Really, it sounds more like _Dungeonology 2_. Which, upon writing, is probably what it is. One of those other books that were spotted on Amazon...


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## Osgood (Jun 2, 2017)

The adventure seems ok. The fact that is is set in the realms is disappointing, but hardly a surprise... though the entire concept (Indiana Jones with Dinosaurs) seems far more suited to Eberron, so maybe we'll at least get some conversion notes.

The Guide to Everything is interesting (even if, for me, Xanathar isn't). I assume this is the mechanics book, but it could be anything (except "everything"... that title screams over-promise!).


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## Zaukrie (Jun 2, 2017)

Off topic, but isn't three months too long between hype and release?


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## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

JRedmond said:


> Don't forget about Xanathar's Guide to Everything.



That's actually the thing that indicates they're only tapping the Realms for titles. Assuming this is the "big book o crunch" and not just a Realms-oriented product, this makes me think that the D&D brand and the Realms brand are slowly, but surely, merging.

Also, that has to be one of the ugliest covers I've seen for a gaming product in a long time.

Hopefully, it was just a call-out to a cute wall decoration (I just hate it as a book cover, I'm indifferent to it as random art) and not a subtle product announcement.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 2, 2017)

Zaukrie said:


> Hopefully this doesn't turn into another ten pages, like all threads, about how FR is the worst. We've read it already. I really hope we get to talk about this product....




Heh, good luck with that one. But the haters are gonna hate and the whiners are gonna whine.

I am not particularly attached to any of the D&D worlds, as I do more homebrew than anything, but the Realms is the most palatable and easiest to use of all the published settings, at least to me, and I have been gaming since before the Realms became a published world.


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## Prakriti (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Really, it sounds more like _Dungeonology 2_. Which, upon writing, is probably what it is. One of those other books that were spotted on Amazon...



That's a possibility too. And the more I look at the cover, the more I lean toward this NOT being the cover for Midway. I just can't rationalize "major release" with "angry cartoon fish." 

Also, no mention of Artus Cimber or the Ring of Winter yet. Interesting...


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> Hm. Two possibilities, I guess:
> 
> (1) This is "Midway," the new mechanical expansion. The cover is pretty different from all the other books, but I can imagine it being the "limited edition" version, like the in-store version of _Volo's Guide_.
> (2) This is a prop for one of the stream games.
> ...



Options 3) it's one of the two still unnamed D&D producst
http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3907-What-Are-These-Four-Unnamed-D-D-Products#.WTG-k7ROKf0
We know one is a revised screen and another is character sheets. Other two are still unknown and cone out before Midway...


----------



## Benji (Jun 2, 2017)

JeffB said:


> phandelver was a fun sandbox.
> 
> Everything else has been a re-hash/fluff up of something Gary or Tracey came up with, jammed into the FR  with a  "twist".




So what was Out Of The Abyss a 're-hash' of?

Also, Having re-read Against The Giants recently as a DM, I think I am of the opinion that Storm King's Thunder is better. Curse of Strahd is a pretty solid product with great additions. So if you want they want to re-mix, I'm not gonna dismiss the concept out of hand.


----------



## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

Zaukrie said:


> Off topic, but isn't three months too long between hype and release?



I don't know. How long was "DnD Next" a thing? It doesn't seem too long, assuming the hype is done well. If it's not a product folks are actually excited about, then that's a long time to not care.

I'm actually more befuddled that they're doing a multi-day event to release an adventure. I assume AL is doing very well for them. Either that, or there is something I really don't understand about marketing.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> Also, no mention of Artus Cimber or the Ring of Winter yet. Interesting...



They are playing a long game, with this one being teased in the DMG with the lich Acererak...
(I do have other thoughts/ conspiracy theories regarding that though...)


----------



## Mercule (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Options 3) it's one of the two still unnamed D&D producst
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3907-What-Are-These-Four-Unnamed-D-D-Products#.WTG-k7ROKf0
> We know one is a revised screen and another is character sheets. Other two are still unknown and cone out before Midway...



OK. That would be a really cute way to package/name the DM screen.

I'd still like to see more settings' IP used in naming (Ashardalon's Guide to Everything?), but I would completely withdraw all my criticism about it, as a DM Screen -- especially if one of the other products pulls a name from a different setting.


----------



## Zarithar (Jun 2, 2017)

Zaukrie said:


> Hopefully this doesn't turn into another ten pages, like all threads, about how FR is the worst. We've read it already. I really hope we get to talk about this product....




Agreed. It gets so tiresome. We get it... let it go!

I really hope there is some sort of nod to _Dwellers of the Forbidden City (_the first published module I ever purchased). Judging by the exposure that the Yuan Ti got in Volo's Guide, I wouldn't discount the possibility!


----------



## Prakriti (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> They are playing a long game, with this one being teased in the DMG with the lich Acererak...
> (I do have other thoughts/ conspiracy theories regarding that though...)



Keep in mind, Chris Perkins tweeted that Artus and the Ring would feature in a 2017 product. So the long-game can only go on for so long. 

Also, has anyone else noticed this book in the background? It looks like a hard-cover. It clearly has the 5E branding on it, and the only word on the cover is "DRIZZT." A mock-up for a future release, maybe? 

View attachment 84785

Edit: Looks like a Drizzt comic, as others pointed out. Probably this one.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jun 2, 2017)

Benji said:


> So what was Out Of The Abyss a 're-hash' of?.



It certainly has some elements of Queen of the Demonweb Pits (drow, demon princes, underdark)


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## ChapolimX (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> It makes sense from a design perspective. They can look at each region and what makes it cool at a slower pace, and if they decide to do a larger book much of that updating will be done. Rather than having to do it all on a deadline, likely spending an afternoon on each region.




That sound like a solid plan to me! Hope they keep that way for long enough (if that's really the plan) to cover all the map. Wish they could intercalate these releases with other settings wich need less to none fixes.


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Mercule said:


> OK. That would be a really cute way to package/name the DM screen.
> 
> I'd still like to see more settings' IP used in naming (Ashardalon's Guide to Everything?), but I would completely withdraw all my criticism about it, as a DM Screen -- especially if one of the other products pulls a name from a different setting.



If it's a introductory/ fluff book (like _Dungeonology_ or the old _Practical Guide to …_ series it makes sense to keep that all in one world. For consistency. When you're introducing all the tropes of D&D you want it nice and generic and don't need to go all-in to the entire Multiverse. Plus, going with an iconic D&D monster (a beholder) for the title character makes sense. 
(Plus, it could be the first in a theoretical series. The _"____'s Guide to Everything"_ series. You can image a  _"Meepo's Guide to Everything"_ or the like.)


----------



## Jeff Carlsen (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Ugh. I hope it's not another special cover. Once was a neat gimmick. Two gets annoying and stops being special.
> 
> As names go it's more blah. It doesn't really tell you what the book is about. It's very no descriptive. It doesn't seem like book you'd go to for more classes or traps.
> 
> Really, it sounds more like _Dungeonology 2_. Which, upon writing, is probably what it is. One of those other books that were spotted on Amazon...




Personally, I really hope that is is another special cover. I think that's an awesome way to handle the mechanical expansions and I love the general style. Also, because my special cover of Volo's Guide to Monsters will get lonely all by itself.


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## gyor (Jun 2, 2017)

Mercule said:


> So, they're looting both Isle of Dread and Tomb of Horrors? Cool:
> 
> They should call it: The Lost Island Tomb of Dreadful Horrors. By the time LITDH made it out of anyone's mouth, it'd sound like "Hey, we're gonna play LICH, tonight."




 And the Jungles of Chult,  so maybe call it The Chult's Lost Island Tomb of Dreadful Jungle Horrors.


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## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 2, 2017)

Give this one a shot.


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## gyor (Jun 2, 2017)

Zarithar said:


> Agreed. It gets so tiresome. We get it... let it go!
> 
> I really hope there is some sort of nod to _Dwellers of the Forbidden City (_the first published module I ever purchased). Judging by the exposure that the Yuan Ti got in Volo's Guide, I wouldn't discount the possibility!




 The jungles of chult have plenty of Yuan Ti and Lizardfolk.


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## Benji (Jun 2, 2017)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> It certainly has some elements of Queen of the Demonweb Pits (drow, demon princes, underdark)




That is a stretch. But it does kind of point to the fact that maybe whatever they produce, we are going to be able to point to another product and go 'it's a bit like that one'. That's due to the fact that D&D is buiolt on familiar terms. They tried to do an entirely different take on D&D with a shook up monster manual, it was called 4th ed. None of us liked it, so we can't really blame them for going back to the touchstones they know. 'Originality' is only synonymous with 'good' if several other factors are in play. The flip of this is that 'Similarity' doesn't equal 'bad' or even 'actually a copy of'.



Jester David said:


> (Plus, it could be the first in a theoretical series. The _"____'s Guide to Everything"_ series. You can image a _"Meepo's Guide to Everything"_ or the like.)





"Tasslehoff's Guide to Everything Else".


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## Mallus (Jun 2, 2017)

Pendleton Ward, eh? I hope there's a lot of him in the final product. 

I mean, not so that we get "The Tomb of Horrific Cosmic Saccharine Yet Poignant Whimsy". 

Wait, no... that's exactly what I want.


----------



## gyor (Jun 2, 2017)

Now I'm curious what the Drizzt book is as well Xandander Guide to Everything are. 

 The Drizzt book looks like an actual RPG product from the cover design, not a novel, but I could be wrong.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> Keep in mind, Chris Perkins tweeted that Artus and the Ring would feature in a 2017 product. So the long-game can only go on for so long.



Okay, my conspiracy theory:

Perkins is the AP guy, right? That's his job. 
Except he wasn't involved at all with _Tales from the Yawning Portal_. That was Mearls and former WotC employee Kim Mohan, likely brought in as freelancer.

Making the storyline adventures takes a LOT of work. There's a reason Paizo has two teams that alternate APs. Plus, they have to start them a year in advance. 
The summer/fall storyline is the big one. It involves the Neverwinter videogame and is tied to the minis. So that one's locked in well over a year in advance. They needed to start work on the concept art to send to Cryptic and WizKids in mid to early 2016. And 2016 was a busy, busy year for Perkins. He had _Force Grey_ and _AI: the Series_ and the three convention games (one more than 2015). Then the winter AI special. And he was doing _Dice, Camera, Action_ all year. And he was involved in _Volo's Guide to Monsters_, helping with the lore and flavour there. 

I suspect Perkins was going to blow his deadline for an adventure.

There was too much and Perkins couldn't handle the winter/spring storyline and the summer/fall one. So Mearls and Mohan stepped in and did _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ at the last minute. Because changing that storyline didn't involve tweaking minis and video game plans. Which is why they went with reprints that could be quickly converted (or not at all for _Dead in Thay_). And why a third of the maps are reprinted (all the _Against the Giants_ ones). And why they put that adventure out when it overlaps so very, very much with the adventure immediately before and after. 
They rushed TftYP out the door while letting Perkins double down on his work for _Tomb of Annihilation_. 

So Artus and the _ring of winter_ storyline got bumped. Back burnered to winter/spring 2018. Or later. 
Which sucks… but is understandable. Because Perkins is human and I don't want him burning out. And it means _Tomb of Annihilation_ is a better product. And _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ made a heck of a lot of people happy, so win-win.


----------



## Majoru Oakheart (Jun 2, 2017)

Benji said:


> That is a stretch.




Probably. But I believe the reason this one was not really based on a previous adventure is because I hear this is the one adventure where they asked R.A. Salvatore for help (thus, there's are a couple of tie in novels). So he had a bunch of plot ideas that helped the adventure be something new.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Jun 2, 2017)

gyor said:


> Now I'm curious what the Drizzt book is as well Xandander Guide to Everything are.
> 
> The Drizzt book looks like an actual RPG product from the cover design, not a novel, but I could be wrong.




Pretty sure that's one of the collected "Legend of Drizzt" comics.....


----------



## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 2, 2017)

Mallus said:


> Pendleton Ward, eh? I hope there's a lot of him in the final product.
> 
> I mean, not so that we get "The Tomb of Horrific Cosmic Saccharine Yet Poignant Whimsy".
> 
> Wait, no... that's exactly what I want.




I don't know what his involvement was in ToA, but I would guess it will be very unique!


----------



## vecna00 (Jun 2, 2017)

hawkeyefan said:


> Pretty sure that's one of the collected "Legend of Drizzt" comics.....




Yeah, kind of looks like this one.

http://rzzy0b736k-flywheel.netdna-s.../2015/10/D-D-Drizzt-Exile-TPB-cover-9bc30.jpg


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Okay, my conspiracy theory:
> 
> Perkins is the AP guy, right? That's his job.
> Except he wasn't involved at all with _Tales from the Yawning Portal_. That was Mearls and former WotC employee Kim Mohan, likely brought in as freelancer.
> ...




This is mostly correct. But I think that Tomb of Annihilation will be the story that includes Artus and the Ring of Winter.


----------



## hawkeyefan (Jun 2, 2017)

vecna00 said:


> Yeah, kind of looks like this one.
> 
> http://rzzy0b736k-flywheel.netdna-s.../2015/10/D-D-Drizzt-Exile-TPB-cover-9bc30.jpg




Yup, that's the one I was thinking of. Always catches my eye at the comic shop because I think it's a game book based on how it looks.


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## Prakriti (Jun 2, 2017)

gyor said:


> The Drizzt book looks like an actual RPG product from the cover design, not a novel, but I could be wrong.



It's definitely an RPG-sized book. And it has the same red-flame branding that all 5E books have. But the title and the design lead me to believe that it's a mock-up of some kind: perhaps a future product, or maybe just a hypothetical product that never made it past the design phase. Alternatively, it could be an in-house book of lore, just intended for office use. I know they were working on such a thing for Faerun, but maybe they did one for Drizzt as well. 

EDIT: Ah, a comic-book collection. I'd never seen those before. That must be it. Disregard. 



Jester David said:


> Okay, my conspiracy theory: ... Artus and the _ring of winter_ storyline got bumped. Back burnered to winter/spring 2018. Or later.



It's a plausible theory, and I wouldn't mind if that were the case. I want better books, even if it means extended deadlines. If we don't hear anything about Artus by the end of this event, I hope someone will tweet Chris and ask him about Artus.


----------



## jasper (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> If it's a introductory/ fluff book (like _Dungeonology_ or the old _Practical Guide to …_ series it makes sense to keep that all in one world. For consistency. When you're introducing all the tropes of D&D you want it nice and generic and don't need to go all-in to the entire Multiverse. Plus, going with an iconic D&D monster (a beholder) for the title character makes sense.
> (Plus, it could be the first in a theoretical series. The _"____'s Guide to Everything"_ series. You can image a  _"Meepo's Guide to Everything"_ or the like.)



Don Meepo is not please with you with your disrespect, Mr. Jester. He feels connecting him to a beholder was unwise. Please accept this gift of boots of swimming with the fishes (a quikrete product).


----------



## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Okay, my conspiracy theory:
> 
> Perkins is the AP guy, right? That's his job.
> Except he wasn't involved at all with _Tales from the Yawning Portal_. That was Mearls and former WotC employee Kim Mohan, likely brought in as freelancer.
> ...




From what I've heard the D&D 5e team have a tightly put together 5 year product release plan that has gone according to their schedule from the beginning. I seriously doubt that there was anytime crunch.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Jawsh Murdock said:


> From what I've heard the D&D 5e team have a tightly put together 5 year product release plan that has gone according to their schedule from the beginning. I seriously doubt that there was anytime crunch.
> 
> Chris definitely has a plan for Artus Cimber. Nothing in that story was "bumped." I can't tell you more, but you'll see.



Except that, repeatedly, in interviews, Crawford and Mearls have said they want to be reactive to the needs and desires of the audience. 
Also, that doesn't mesh at all with the cancellation of the _Adventurer's Handbook_. (To say nothing of the _Dungeonscape_ failure. Or taking 18 months to get the OGL out.)

I also highly doubt they'd plan out five years in advance when neither 3.0 or 4e managed to make it _three _years without an overhaul and massive change to the plans...


----------



## Obryn (Jun 2, 2017)

Welp, the looting of Greyhawk's corpse that really got rolling in 3e continues apace.

Also, the original conception of Chult has a whole lot of colonial/racial baggage. It'll be interesting to see how WotC threads this needle, IMO.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> It's a plausible theory, and I wouldn't mind if that were the case. I want better books, even if it means extended deadlines. If we don't hear anything about Artus by the end of this event, I hope someone will tweet Chris and ask him about Artus.



It's one of those things that they'd never, ever talk about before. Because it'd cause a fan-panic (plus Hasbro being publicly traded) - especially after all the drama caused _Adventurer's Handbook_ or the cancellations late in 4e - and might impact sales of TftYP.


----------



## timbannock (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Except that, repeatedly, in interviews, Crawford and Mearls have said they want to be reactive to the needs and desires of the audience.
> Also, that doesn't mesh at all with the cancellation of the _Adventurer's Handbook_. (To say nothing of the _Dungeonscape_ failure. Or taking 18 months to get the OGL out.)
> 
> I also highly doubt they'd plan out five years in advance when neither 3.0 or 4e managed to make it _three _years without an overhaul and massive change to the plans...




_Adventurer's Handbook_ - the book that was never announced.

_Dungeonscape _- a licensed tech project.

OGL - a thing that requires corporate lawyers' input.

5-year plan - a thing any reasonable corporation puts out, knowing that it is not a set-in-stone path but instead a current projection of how to set company objectives and how to meet the company goal.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Chult Minis announced. 

*Case incentive* 
Trapped room diorama: Sarcophagus, green devil wall mask, little potions, traps, portals, and glyphs
There will be a Stone Juggernaut mini.

Also doing a _Tomb or Annihilation_ adventure system board game, ala the _Temple of Elemental Evil_ or _Castle Ravenloft_


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

*Dice Masters*
There will also be a _Tomb of Annihilation_ set for the dice building game.


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## Davelozzi (Jun 2, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> Also, no mention of Artus Cimber or the Ring of Winter yet. Interesting...




_The Ring of Winter_ novel was Artus' main appearance to date and it was set in Chult.  I wouldn't write off this being where they make an appearance, although (although I wouldn't mind the ring being the focus of an AP on its own, myself).


----------



## timbannock (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Chult Minis announced.
> 
> *Case incentive*
> Trapped room diorama: Sarcophagus, green devil wall mask, little potions, traps, portals, and glyphs
> There will be a Stone Juggernaut mini.




HOLY CRAP THAT'S AWESOME


----------



## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

Obryn said:


> Welp, the looting of Greyhawk's corpse that really got rolling in 3e continues apace.
> 
> Also, the original conception of Chult has a whole lot of colonial/racial baggage. It'll be interesting to see how WotC threads this needle, IMO.




In fairness, the _Tomb of Horrors_ was pretty tentative in it's Greyhawk connection. It predated the first Greyhawk product by many years, and didn't really have a firm place in the setting. As presented, it was meant to be an adventure you could drop into numerous locations (or even settings).


----------



## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 2, 2017)

Davelozzi said:


> _The Ring of Winter_ novel was Artus' main appearance to date and it was set in Chult.  I wouldn't write off this being where they make an appearance, although (although I wouldn't mind the ring being the focus of an AP on its own, myself).




I think you're definitely on to something!


----------



## PHDungeon (Jun 2, 2017)

Sounds kind of cool, except that I ran Age of Worms not that long ago, so I've already done a D&D version of zombie apocalypse... Might still check it out.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 2, 2017)

View attachment 84787


----------



## Davelozzi (Jun 2, 2017)

Benji said:


> So what was Out Of The Abyss a 're-hash' of?




I don't have OotA so I can't speak to specifics, but at birds eye view, an AP against Demogorgon was done already with _Savage Tide_, and certainly there have been a couple of big underdark based campaigns, notably the original drow series in 1e as well as _Night Below_ in the 2e era.


----------



## Mistwell (Jun 2, 2017)

Davelozzi said:


> I don't have OotA so I can't speak to specifics, but at birds eye view, an AP against Demogorgon was done already with _Savage Tide_, and certainly there have been a couple of big underdark based campaigns, notably the original drow series in 1e as well as _Night Below_ in the 2e era.




Out of the Abyss is nothing like Savage Tide.  In fact at most you could say part of Savage Tide was a re-tread of Isle of Dread.


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## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 2, 2017)

PHDungeon said:


> Sounds kind of cool, except that I ran Age of Worms not that long ago, so I've already done a D&D version of zombie apocalypse... Might still check it out.




Annihilation is really cool!


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## Benji (Jun 2, 2017)

Davelozzi said:


> I don't have OotA so I can't speak to specifics, but at birds eye view, an AP against Demogorgon was done already with _Savage Tide_, and certainly there have been a couple of big underdark based campaigns, notably the original drow series in 1e as well as _Night Below_ in the 2e era.






Mistwell said:


> Out of the Abyss is nothing like Savage Tide. In fact at most you could say part of Savage Tide was a re-tread of Isle of Dread.




This. This exactly. Could, at this point, anyone come up with anything and no one go 'It's just X rehashed'? I doubt it.


----------



## Patrick McGill (Jun 2, 2017)

I've said it before, but calling the Adventures all rehashes is little more than dramatic license. The only one that is a true rehash is Curse of Strahd, and it's also the best AP.


----------



## Kite474 (Jun 2, 2017)

So so far count me as disappointed. Another mediocre written adventure into the Realms (Though to be fair by the very nature of adventures and TTRPG's a good story is something that's hard to present.

Look I get they have to make money. D&D is pretty much the red-headed stepchild of WoTC and has to justify its existence. But would it kill them to do something a little different?


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 2, 2017)

Kite474 said:


> So so far count me as disappointed. Another mediocre written adventure into the Realms (Though to be fair by the very nature of adventures and TTRPG's a good story is something that's hard to present.
> 
> Look I get they have to make money. D&D is pretty much the red-headed stepchild of WoTC and has to justify its existence. But would it kill them to do something a little different?




I love how it is a "mediocre written adventure" when you haven't even read it yet. Can I borrow your crystal ball?


----------



## Mistwell (Jun 2, 2017)

Benji said:


> This. This exactly. Could, at this point, anyone come up with anything and no one go 'It's just X rehashed'? I doubt it.




Mine was not speculation. Part of savage tide is set on isle of dread. That part was specifically stated to be a refresh of Isle of Dread for 3e by Erik Mona.


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## The Last Rogue (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Okay, my conspiracy theory:
> 
> Perkins is the AP guy, right? That's his job.
> Except he wasn't involved at all with _Tales from the Yawning Portal_. That was Mearls and former WotC employee Kim Mohan, likely brought in as freelancer.
> ...





Except the last place Artus was actually seen, canonically, was Chult. He settled down there. Right?


----------



## timbannock (Jun 2, 2017)

Kite474 said:


> Look I get they have to make money. D&D is pretty much the red-headed stepchild of WoTC and has to justify its existence. But would it kill them to do something a little different?




That red-headed stepchild got its first mention pretty much ever on a Hasbro earnings phone call recently. Not only that, it was a positive statement about the business it's doing.

As for different, have you not seen their multimedia approach to the game? Do you not acknowledge the radically different supplement turnaround and wide ranging seasonal storyline-focus of the company because you don't see it happening or because you don't like it? Have you not noticed that they hit media outlets regularly and with far greater reach than they ever have (maybe with the exception of the Satanic Panic era, but I doubt even that for sheer numbers).

I get the hate of corporations. I get the hate of The Man. Whether or not I agree with it, I totally get it.

But it's like some people are actively trying to keep the blinders on rather than to look outside of their little bubble of derision.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jun 2, 2017)

I would call a jungle based adventure quite different than anything we have received in years and years. Maybe I missed a product?


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## Patrick McGill (Jun 2, 2017)

Yeah, it's an exotic locale compared to Europe-adjacent Sword Coast with a focus on exploration, a sand-boxy "gazetteer" approach. And zombie dinosaurs.

How is this not "different"?


----------



## Allyson Latondress (Jun 2, 2017)

Here's a video from Faerun History on the Jungles of Chult, in case anyone wanted some more info on the location!


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## Benji (Jun 2, 2017)

Mistwell said:


> Mine was not speculation. Part of savage tide is set on isle of dread. That part was specifically stated to be a refresh of Isle of Dread for 3e by Erik Mona.




I knew that about savage tide, and forgot it.  

I suppose my point is that of course D&D adventures mimic each other, that's how things that share themes work. I'm not sure people complaining about that add anything to the overall discussion. At most they are drawing a parallel that actually exists but doesn't mean anything (Yes, Storm Kings Thunder is Against The Giant inspired but does that cheapen it? Does that speak to it's construction? Does it tell us anything about it's inherent value?). At worst it creates some kind of antagonism towards a thing before it's started because it's like a thing we enjoyed. I liked The Dark Knight. I didn't go 'It's a bit like Batman Begins, so god I hate that' I also didn't go 'It's a bit like the Batman comics that I like, I won't get it'. I don't get the antagonism for stuff when it's adding to a mythos - it's like ragging on Lord Of The Rings becuase it re-uses ideas from The Hobbit. Anyway, I like the idea of tomb of annihilation because finally after all these year acererak might seem like a rounded villain with realistic motivations. Not just a random joker-like Lich you think you've killed but haven't. 

Anyway Mistwell, I know you aren't subscribing to the viewpoint I'm arguing against, so please feel free to ignore this rant.


----------



## Dark_T_Zeratul (Jun 2, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which would be fine, but the adventures don't say that. Or even mention Asmodeus.
> Instead, the mention Tiamat being "banished" to the Nine Hells and "imprisoned". It's pretty clear that "long ago" she was trapped in the Hells. But that totally doesn't mesh with her last past apperences, as recently as the 4e _Scales of War_ adventure path.



Scales of War wasn't Forgotten Realms. As far as Forgotten Realms is concerned, she's always been in the Nine Hells.



The Last Rogue said:


> Except the last place Artus was actually seen, canonically, was Chult. He settled down there. Right?



The Storm King's Thunder expansion for Neverwinter was centered around Artus Cimber chasing after frost giants in Icewind Dale that had stolen the Ring of Winter. Not sure what if any of that was in the adventure book.


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## vecna00 (Jun 2, 2017)

neuronphaser said:


> That red-headed stepchild got its first mention pretty much ever on a Hasbro earnings phone call recently. Not only that, it was a positive statement about the business it's doing.
> 
> As for different, have you not seen their multimedia approach to the game? Do you not acknowledge the radically different supplement turnaround and wide ranging seasonal storyline-focus of the company because you don't see it happening or because you don't like it? Have you not noticed that they hit media outlets regularly and with far greater reach than they ever have (maybe with the exception of the Satanic Panic era, but I doubt even that for sheer numbers).
> 
> ...




Some people just want more choice. It's the downside of the current approach where the only choice is this book or nothing, and then waiting six months to see if the cycle continues.  

They don't have to give new campaign books, just update the mechanics, the fluff is already there.  That will probably reduce a lot of the disappointment, I know it will for me.


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## Al2O3 (Jun 2, 2017)

Personally I find this a bit too different, so I'm glad my group will have a long time left with SKT.

And for Rise of Tiamat and finding lore:
If it is 4e or later, Forgotten realms and the Nine Hells, then Erin M Evans is likely the person with the details.

Tiamat got tired of something and made a deal with Asmodeus. Traded some freedom in general to get more power with her own realm. I think it was part of The Adversary.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using EN World mobile app


----------



## Aldarc (Jun 2, 2017)

No surprise, but so tired of the Realms. So this is another adventure that I will not be purchasing.


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## MonsterEnvy (Jun 2, 2017)

Jawsh Murdock said:


> Annihilation is much more than just zombies. They're not as predominant in the story as you might think, but what happens with them is really cool!




You are new, but you also sound like someone who is in the know. Are you part of the D&D team?


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## Jester David (Jun 2, 2017)

The Last Rogue said:


> Except the last place Artus was actually seen, canonically, was Chult. He settled down there. Right?




I can count the number of Realms novels I have read on one hand...


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## JeffB (Jun 3, 2017)

Benji said:


> So what was Out Of The Abyss a 're-hash' of?
> 
> Also, Having re-read Against The Giants recently as a DM, I think I am of the opinion that Storm King's Thunder is better. Curse of Strahd is a pretty solid product with great additions. So if you want they want to re-mix, I'm not gonna dismiss the concept out of hand.




You might want to re-read D1-3 and Q1. And then put it on typical FR overload. Throw in some A4 as well.

Drow city, dark lakes , Kuo-toa cities/outpost, svirfneblin communities, a labyrinth (the demonweb) and a demon lord at the end.

Not that WOTC and 2e era TSR has not harped on those things for ages, OotA is not the first...but it was all done almost 40 years ago.


----------



## Mhyr (Jun 3, 2017)

Well, I like the concept of chult (jungle with dinosaurs, lizardfolk and yuan-ti) and I like the villain (cannot tell what Wizards did to the demilich), I don't see their connection yet, but I know that I really don't like the title for various reasons.

As I am thinking about how to embed _Hidden Shrine _in my homebrew world, so I am interested in ToA as a jungle sandbox sourcebook. Something like OotA to the underdark, with a lot of generic and not realms specific content, would be great!


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 3, 2017)

They announced a Dice Tin, most likely one of the 4 unnamed products (One being the already confirmed Character Sheets)


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## gyor (Jun 3, 2017)

Dark_T_Zeratul said:


> Scales of War wasn't Forgotten Realms. As far as Forgotten Realms is concerned, she's always been in the Nine Hells.
> 
> The Storm King's Thunder expansion for Neverwinter was centered around Artus Cimber chasing after frost giants in Icewind Dale that had stolen the Ring of Winter. Not sure what if any of that was in the adventure book.




 No in 4e she was wondering around Banehold,  as a servant of the God Bane.


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## gyor (Jun 3, 2017)

In the past yes,  but in 4e he became Auril's exarch,  basically a demigod and dwelled with her. Then in 5e he was seen during SKT.


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## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

Mhyr said:


> Well, I like the concept of chult (jungle with dinosaurs, lizardfolk and yuan-ti) and I like the villain (cannot tell what Wizards did to the demilich), I don't see their connection yet, but I know that I really don't like the title for various reasons.
> 
> As I am thinking about how to embed _Hidden Shrine _in my homebrew world, so I am interested in ToA as a jungle sandbox sourcebook. Something like OotA to the underdark, with a lot of generic and not realms specific content, would be great!




You'll love it then. The Adventurer's League adventures also tie into the ToA.


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## Dark_T_Zeratul (Jun 3, 2017)

gyor said:


> No in 4e she was wondering around Banehold,  as a servant of the God Bane.



As per Ed Greenwood, she's always been in Avernus:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19841&whichpage=7#464818


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## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

https://www.twitch.tv/dnd

Mercer and co are talking about things and supposed to go into more details.


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## GarrettKP (Jun 3, 2017)




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## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

New board game! The elephant is REAL!

View attachment 84802


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## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

Dice in a tin also coming

View attachment 84801

Jeremy Crawford confirms more announcements tomorrow.


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## Zaukrie (Jun 3, 2017)

I can't imagine a product I am less interested in than a dice box.


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## SigmaOne (Jun 3, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> I love how it is a "mediocre written adventure" when you haven't even read it yet. Can I borrow your crystal ball?




For real. I'm doubtful this person has read, much less played, much of any of the adventure paths... WotC would be hard-pressed to have had better overall reception of their 5e APs. Yeah, the first one had some major issues, but aside from that they've all been pretty high quality. So a comment like this just leads me to believe someone has an axe to grind and isn't leveraging any serious criticism. There's no 

Regarding the Forgotten Realms, it's greatest strength has always been the combination of how generic it is, while at the same time being pretty fleshed out. Most of these APs could be dropped in anywhere, with just minor changes. WotC gets to have its cake and eat it too: build branded IP, like the factions and linking to things like Bruenor and Gauntlgrym,  while at the same time creating adventures that are otherwise highly generic... and any offending content is easily stripped or re-branded.  Groups can take the content how they like it.  I think 5e sales have proven this a successful approach.   

I'd love to see some other stuff, too. Eberron, Dragonlace, Spelljammer (well, okay, not really spelljammer, sorry), Dune .. I mean Dark Sun. I'd love to see a *gasp* totally new setting.  But I can't blame WotC for making quality products that are highly likely to sell and minimize brand dilution. 

I also can't imagine why anyone could have a problem with a limited edition cover and hope they don't make one... literally just ignore it. You don't have to buy it; buy the regular edition one. It's the easiest thing.


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## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

https://www.facebook.com/dungeonsanddragons/videos/10155173818601071/


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## SigmaOne (Jun 3, 2017)

Zaukrie said:


> I can't imagine a product I am less interested in than a dice box.




Really, that just betrays a lack of imagination.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jun 3, 2017)

SigmaOne said:


> Regarding the Forgotten Realms, it's greatest strength has always been the combination of how generic it is, while at the same time being pretty fleshed out. Most of these APs could be dropped in anywhere, with just minor changes.




One thing about using Chult is definitely its ability to be re-skinned in other campaign worlds, as a "mysterious jungle region" is an old D&D staple.  I imagine that this AP will be easily adaptable as taking place in the Amedio Jungle or Hepmonaland in Greyhawk, or in Xen'drik in Eberron.


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## Zaukrie (Jun 3, 2017)

SigmaOne said:


> Really, that just betrays a lack of imagination.



Okay, that was funny


----------



## Prakriti (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Jeremy Crawford confirms more announcements tomorrow.



The exact tweet: "Our next storyline, Tomb of Annihilation, is coming! There's more news tomorrow, when I'll be joining the fun. #DnD #StreamofAnnihilation" Source: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/870772732153155584 

He and Mike Mearls both retweeted the _Xanathar's Guide to Everything_ image, where-as Chris Perkins did not. This suggests to me that _Xanathar's Guide_ will indeed be the second fall release and it will be the mechanical expansion.


----------



## JeffB (Jun 3, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> One thing about using Chult is definitely its ability to be re-skinned in other campaign worlds, as a "mysterious jungle region" is an old D&D staple.  I imagine that this AP will be easily adaptable as taking place in the Amedio Jungle or Hepmonaland in Greyhawk, or in Xen'drik in Eberron.




In my FR games, Xen'Drik is Chult..or... vice versa......(?) 

And the format they want to use for this adventure, as well as SKT is excellent.


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## werecorpse (Jun 3, 2017)

I don't run games set in forgotten realms I use homebrew or homebrewed greyhawk so have got used to moving stuff. I'm happy with an adventure with a hook of something messing with resurrection magic, that's a cool fairly innovative hook IMO. It works for me that it's an arch lich and whether it's Acererak or some other dude is something I can just rename. As for it being in Chult I'll just change that to Amedio or Hepmanoland and use most of the stuff. The important aspect is the jungle exploration old ruins and undead which sounds like fun. The original Tomb of Horrors module was evocative but IMO mechanically uninteresting so using the themes and so forth but with a more modern less gotcha approach intrigues me. So while this isn't my dream come true it's got enough in it that I'm looking forward to it.

That board game looks like fun too.


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## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> The exact tweet: "Our next storyline, Tomb of Annihilation, is coming! There's more news tomorrow, when I'll be joining the fun. #DnD #StreamofAnnihilation" Source: https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/870772732153155584
> 
> He and Mike Mearls both retweeted the _Xanathar's Guide to Everything_ image, where-as Chris Perkins did not. This suggests to me that _Xanathar's Guide_ will indeed be the second fall release and it will be the mechanical expansion.




Or, more likely, Mearls and Crawford weren't busy running, prepping, and then running another game. And thus had time to hit Twitter...


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm liking the 1.5 hour stream format. The Grungs are particularly entertaining, and it's cool to see these various streamers all playing together.


----------



## Prakriti (Jun 3, 2017)

New art. Dwarf-like, shadowy figures currently attacking the party. 

View attachment 84807


----------



## pukunui (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which doesn't seem to bother any of the other gods that dwell in Hell or the Abyss.
> And she wasn't portrayed as trapped before.



From page 10 of _The Rise of Tiamat:_



> Tiamat has long threatened Faerûn, often appearing in lands such as Chessenta and Unther to drive mortals to worship her awesome power. Although mortals don’t know it, the end of the Sundering and the Era of Upheaval also put an end to such direct meddling by the gods. Without powerful magic and mortal aid, Tiamat cannot travel from her home in Avernus into the world.


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## werecorpse (Jun 3, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> New art. Dwarf-like, shadowy figures currently attacking the party.
> 
> View attachment 84807




Quick! Poke 'em in the eyes and set fire to their beards!


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## Demetrios1453 (Jun 3, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> New art. Dwarf-like, shadowy figures currently attacking the party.
> 
> View attachment 84807




That's presumably a wild/jungle dwarf (although with Acererak's symbol on his arm, probably one turned to the dark side), a dwarven subrace that makes Chult their home. Looks like they aren't skipping over any previous Chult lore/information in this one!

On a similar note, I very much like the fact they appear to be taking the whole dinosaur thing and just running wild with it. Given their real-world associations, sometimes dinosaurs get short shrift in D&D, and I am really happy to see them being embraced here...


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## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

pukunui said:


> From page 10 of _The Rise of Tiamat:_




Page 5 of _Hoard of the Dragon Queen_:


> With the assembled mask, the cult can release Tiamat from her prison in the Nine Hells.



And page 25:


> Most characters should recognize Tiamat from folktales and know she was banished to the Nine Hells long ago and remains imprisoned there.




It states pretty clearly that not only can she not get to the material plane, but that she can't leave Hell. It's her prison.

The line in RoT almost seems to be a retcon (in a section mostly about summoning devils). Possibly in response to early feedback from previews of HotDQ...


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## Shasarak (Jun 3, 2017)

Ok, so Chult sounds cool and Dinosaurs sound cool but Undead Apocalypse? Errr, mmm.

Just a straight Indianna Jones vs Chult vs Acererak would have been cool enough for me.


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## TerraDave (Jun 3, 2017)

So you go to the Ilse of Dread to find the Tomb of Horrors to stop a Zombie Apocalypse?

And they call it Chult to give the needed FR tie in?


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 3, 2017)

Phase 2 of D&D Beyond will be released this month.

D&D Beyond will have an "official" pronunciation guide (Monsters, Deities, and Races), voiced by Matt Mercer and Marisha Rey.


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 3, 2017)

Edit: sorry, double post.


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## Duan'duliir (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm quite looking forward to this.


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## mach1.9pants (Jun 3, 2017)

Sounds pretty interesting and Chult is somewhere I know nothing about.


----------



## pukunui (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> It states pretty clearly that not only can she not get to the material plane, but that she can't leave Hell. It's her prison.



That's consistent with the lore about the Nine Hells in general. No devil can leave the Hells on their own. They all must be summoned and so forth. I doubt even Asmodeus can leave of his own free will.



> The line in RoT almost seems to be a retcon ...



Nah, it's pretty consistent with other stuff written about the changes made during the Sundering. If it was a retcon, it was just to bring it into line with everything else.


----------



## Remathilis (Jun 3, 2017)

Shasarak said:


> Ok, so Chult sounds cool and Dinosaurs sound cool but Undead Apocalypse? Errr, mmm.
> 
> Just a straight Indianna Jones vs Chult vs Acererak would have been cool enough for me.



I'm thinking less Zombie Apocalypse and more Cannibal Holocaust; except with a better reason for the natives to try and eat you than racist stereotypes.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

SigmaOne said:


> Phase 2 of D&D Beyond will be released this month.
> 
> D&D Beyond will have an "official" pronunciation guide (Monsters, Deities, and Races), voiced by Matt Mercer and Marisha Rey.



Which would inspire more confidence if Mercer hadn't pronounced lemure as "lemur" for two sessions...


----------



## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 3, 2017)

MonsterEnvy said:


> You are new, but you also sound like someone who is in the know. Are you part of the D&D team?




I'm a former AL Coordinator and current WotC  playtester, but not an official D&D employee. I am working on writing some stuff for AL though.


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## Jocanuck (Jun 3, 2017)

This sounds pretty cool. I don't get the drama over the forgotten realms setting, any DM worth his/her salt can convert to another setting.

cheers,
 Jocanuck


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## chibi graz'zt (Jun 3, 2017)

Satine Phoenix is a hot DM ;-)
Im so happy that hot people are playing D&D now!


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## pukunui (Jun 3, 2017)

Jawsh Murdock said:


> I'm a former AL Coordinator and current WotC  playtester ...



Then you should be aware that your comments in this thread are getting very close to violating your NDA. (I, too, am an alpha playtester.)


----------



## chibi graz'zt (Jun 3, 2017)

Jocanuck said:


> This sounds pretty cool. I don't get the drama over the forgotten realms setting, any DM worth his/her salt can convert to another setting.
> 
> cheers,
> Jocanuck




The drama you say, well, its because the Forgotten Realms is the definitive D&D campaign world ;-)
And the best!


----------



## Prakriti (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which would inspire more confidence if Mercer hadn't pronounced lemure as "lemur" for two sessions...



They did say that the pronunciations would come from WotC. On the other hand, Matt Sernett and Chris Perkins both mispronounced "Ubtao" for the entirety of the last Dragon Talk podcast. And Chris Perkins mispronounced "Vallaki," the town in _Curse of Strahd_, throughout Dice, Camera, Action, which is strange, considering he wrote the adventure... 

Also, they showed off a few pronunciations on the stream, and I must say, every single one of them was inconsistent with my own pronunciations (FEAR-bolg?). Most notably, the pronunciation of "Sahuagin" didn't agree with the one used in Dungeons & Dragons Online. Consistency, people -- can we have some?


----------



## JohnnyZemo (Jun 3, 2017)

JeffB said:


> You might want to re-read D1-3 and Q1. And then put it on typical FR overload. Throw in some A4 as well.
> 
> Drow city, dark lakes , Kuo-toa cities/outpost, svirfneblin communities, a labyrinth (the demonweb) and a demon lord at the end.
> 
> Not that WOTC and 2e era TSR has not harped on those things for ages, OotA is not the first...but it was all done almost 40 years ago.




Ehhh... I don't think anyone who has played Out of the Abyss would agree with you. (I've DM'ed all the adventures you mention as well as Out of the Abyss.) 

Yes, the start is similar to A4, but the Maze Engine and the Demonweb are nothing alike. Saying that the adventures are alike because they both include dark lakes is like saying that all adventures that take place in a forest are the same. Lolth is very important to D1-3 and Q1, and (spoilers) she is only a background force in Out of the Abyss. Out of the Abyss is all about demon lords and Underdark weirdness. (The weirdness is what led to the early, somewhat confusing, comparisons to Alice in Wonderland.) Nothing in Out of the Abyss is like Q1.

And honestly, published adventures have changed so much in the 30+ years between the two that they read like totally different animals. The D series is mostly a big map with some fixed encounters and a lot of random encounters. Almost all of the encounter areas are sketched out in a sentence or two. There is one overarching plotline, but it is extremely straightforward.

Out of the Abyss has so much more detail in every way that the parts that overlap with the D series feel totally different. And if you really want to get picky, there is no kuo-toa city in the D series, just a big temple (and the main focus of the middle section of the adventure). In Out of the Abyss, there is a kuo-toa town. It's an important plot point, but only a small part of the overall adventure.

Anyway, having run both, I find them very different.


----------



## Shasarak (Jun 3, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> I'm thinking less Zombie Apocalypse and more Cannibal Holocaust; except with a better reason for the natives to try and eat you than racist stereotypes.




I never thought about the cannibal aspect but it is hardly racist to have angry natives wanting to kill you.


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## Remathilis (Jun 3, 2017)

Shasarak said:


> I never thought about the cannibal aspect but it is hardly racist to have angry natives wanting to kill you.



I don't want to derail this thread with anything political, but the classic "cannibalistic natives killing and eating the explorers" isn't the most flattering depiction of dark-skinned tribesmen out there.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

pukunui said:


> That's consistent with the lore about the Nine Hells in general. No devil can leave the Hells on their own. They all must be summoned and so forth. I doubt even Asmodeus can leave of his own free will.



That's more in line with demons, which need to be summoned. Devils have been presented as being able to leave more freely in order to make deals. 
Even then, it'd only really apply to devils. Other outsiders, like night hags and rakshasas, don't seem to be as limited. So why would any of the many gods who have dwelled in the Nine Hells be imprisoned there? (The gods of the goblins, orcs, sahuagin, and kobolds have all lived in the Nine Hells at one point.)
And it certainly doesn't mesh with the idea of the Blood Wars, unless the demons and devils were summoning each other...

To say nothing of the fact the 4e Realms campaign setting has Tiamat move into Banehold with Bane. 

The "devils need to be summoned" thing is reasonable headcanon, and a decent justification. But it still doesn't mesh with the "imprisoned" line unless anything that goes into the Nine Hells can't leave.
My problem is the book never bother to explain or even attempt to justify it, when all it took was a single sentence. "Tiamat angered Bane after a failed assassination of Bahaumat and was imprisoned in the Nine Hells." That's *literally *all it would have taken. But they couldn't even bother doing that. Or just not refer to her as being a prisoner and instead they're just trying to summon her into the mortal world. 
But zero effort was made. They just did the story and decided "it makes more sense if Tiamat is trapped. Guess she's been trapped. And has been for a "long time"."

Which is why I'm hesitant about Acererak suddenly becoming a lich. And not lich a lich, but supposedly the most powerful lich. (Ummm... Vecna?) But Acererak _isn't_ a lich. He's the iconic demilich. So I'm understandably worried he might have suddenly changed into a lich for no reason and that the adventure won't even try to explain it.

Which bugs the crap out of me. Changing canon for no good reason without even a token handwavy excuse is extremely frustrating to me. 
I can't wait for the next adventure when Elminster is a 14-year-old girl. The gith/ Mind Flayer war adventure, where the gith are ruled by a giant gith golem. And the Modron March adventure where Primus looks like a giant robot planet. 

Anyhoo... this threads about _Tomb of __Annihilation_ and I should probably stop filling it with my Tiamat rants...


----------



## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 3, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> I love how it is a "mediocre written adventure" when you haven't even read it yet. Can I borrow your crystal ball?




I think you'll all enjoy it.


----------



## Patrick McGill (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which is why I'm hesitant about Acererak suddenly becoming a lich. And not lich a lich, but supposedly the most powerful lich. (Ummm... Vecna?) But Acererak _isn't_ a lich. He's the iconic demilich. So I'm understandably worried he might have suddenly changed into a lich for no reason and that the adventure won't even try to explain it.
> 
> Which bugs the crap out of me. Changing canon for no good reason without even a token handwavy excuse is extremely frustrating to me.
> I can't wait for the next adventure when Elminster is a 14-year-old girl. The gith/ Mind Flayer war adventure, where the gith are ruled by a giant gith golem. And the Modron March adventure where Primus looks like a giant robot planet.




I'm not sure Acererak being a lich instead of a demilich is really equivalent to Elminster being a 14 year old girl.


----------



## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 3, 2017)

pukunui said:


> Then you should be aware that your comments in this thread are getting very close to violating your NDA. (I, too, am an alpha playtester.)




Duly noted. I'm trying to chose my words carefully. I don't believe I've give anything away that's not already been released. My main points are to encourage folks to give it a fair chance. It's great campaign.


----------



## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

It is a great campaign and really uses the Lore of Chult wonderfully.


----------



## Jawsh Murdock (Jun 3, 2017)

Patrick McGill said:


> I'm not sure Acererak being a lich instead of a demilich is really equivalent to Elminster being a 14 year old girl.




I actually enjoy Elminster's turn as the girl Elmara in the book, "Making of a Mage." That's good stuff.  I thought Acererak was listed as a demilich . If he's been demoted, so to speak, that would be odd.


----------



## Shasarak (Jun 3, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> I don't want to derail this thread with anything political, but the classic "cannibalistic natives killing and eating the explorers" isn't the most flattering depiction of dark-skinned tribesmen out there.




Sure, so just take out the "cannibalistic" part.

If we really want to get offended then I am not sure that making them the big dumb dark-skinned tribesmen that all got turned into zombies cause they are so dumb is any better.


----------



## pukunui (Jun 3, 2017)

Jawsh Murdock said:


> Duly noted. I'm trying to chose my words carefully. I don't believe I've give anything away that's not already been released. My main points are to encourage folks to give it a fair chance. It's great campaign.



Be that as it may, we're not supposed to say *anything* about specific products.



Jester David said:


> That's more in line with demons, which need to be summoned. Devils have been presented as being able to leave more freely in order to make deals.



You might want to reread the 5e lore on demons and devils. To whit, there is this from page 67 of the 5e MM: _"Devils are confined to the Lower Planes, but they can travel beyond those planes by means of portals or powerful summoning magic."_ The DMG also makes it clear that there are no portals connecting to Hells 2-9, so any devils wanting to escape via portals will have to find their way to Avernus.

On the flip side, the entries on demons and the Abyss say nothing about them being "confined".



darjr said:


> It is a great campaign and really uses the Lore of Chult wonderfully.



Are you a playtester as well?


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Jun 3, 2017)

Devils and Demons have always been able to freely travel the lower planes pretty well however.


----------



## jrowland (Jun 3, 2017)

Jawsh Murdock said:


> I actually enjoy Elminster's turn as the girl Elmara in the book, "Making of a Mage." That's good stuff.  I thought Acererak was listed as a demilich . If he's been demoted, so to speak, that would be odd.




While Demilich is a progression _after_ lich, a lich is more powerful. My guess is the "hard mode" version discussed is basically _how_ Acerak returns to lichdom from demilichdom.

in other words:


----------



## pukunui (Jun 3, 2017)

The description of the DMG cover illo calls him an "archlich", whatever that is. Could be something new and/or unique.


----------



## Shasarak (Jun 3, 2017)

Jawsh Murdock said:


> I thought Acererak was listed as a demilich . If he's been demoted, so to speak, that would be odd.




You are right, I also thought he was a demilich.

Which just makes me wonder why they did not place the Lich and Undead adventure path in Thay where you have a Lich and a lot of Undead already.


----------



## Duan'duliir (Jun 3, 2017)

pukunui said:


> The description of the DMG cover illo calls him an "archlich", whatever that is. Could be something new and/or unique.




Well, he can't be an archlich - they're good guys! I suppose the team forgot about these guys when they wrote that description, and they just meant a more powerful lich.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 3, 2017)

Shasarak said:


> You are right, I also thought he was a demilich.
> 
> Which just makes me wonder why they did not place the Lich and Undead adventure path in Thay where you have a Lich and a lot of Undead already.



As the old commercial and subsequent meme says, "Why not both?"

A Thay adventure would probably pick up on the old sword and sorcery vibes with an evil magocracy that is very likely unoverthrowable no matter what minor victories the heroes may achieve, something quite different than a Chult "jungles and dinosaurs" adventure. The fact that both might have a loch as the ultimate big bad would be more coincidence than anything (and the lack of variety in potential D&D big bads).

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app


----------



## MonsterEnvy (Jun 3, 2017)

Szass Tam or Larloch I feel would work a bit better as they are already FR baddies. Still Acererak the Arch Lich should have some cool imagery associated with him.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Jun 3, 2017)

userZynx_name said:


> Well, he can't be an archlich - they're good guys! I suppose the team forgot about these guys when they wrote that description, and they just meant a more powerful lich.




Actually, a redeemed (and archlich) Acererak would be a pretty nifty twist.

Overall, I'm hoping (pipe dreaming) that this book will be 80+% sourcebook and a 5 level (max) adventure. Maybe for levels 10-15.


----------



## Mistwell (Jun 3, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> One thing about using Chult is definitely its ability to be re-skinned in other campaign worlds, as a "mysterious jungle region" is an old D&D staple.  I imagine that this AP will be easily adaptable as taking place in the Amedio Jungle or Hepmonaland in Greyhawk, or in Xen'drik in Eberron.




With the "Isle of Dread" link, I think almost certainly Amedio jungle. Isle of Dread is sort of north-west of Sassarine I seem to recall, and Amedio is just east of Sassarine. And it's pretty much an uncharted jungle where hunters occasionally bring back the trophies of strange creatures found there.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Jun 3, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> But 5E is the current edition and FR is the current default setting. Kvetching doesn't help.




I don't really mind Forgotten Realms, but it is factually incorrect to say it is the default setting, since the WotC employees have consistently stated that the multiverse, not the Forgotten Realms, is the default setting.

Sure, it is the adventure and transmedia product focus, but that isn't the same thing as a default setting.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 3, 2017)

Ath-kethin said:


> Actually, a redeemed (and archlich) Acererak would be a pretty nifty twist.
> 
> Overall, I'm hoping (pipe dreaming) that this book will be 80+% sourcebook and a 5 level (max) adventure. Maybe for levels 10-15.




While an 80% sourcebook would be nice, I doubt even the most hard-core Realms lore fanatic could come up with 200 (useful and meaningful) pages on Chult.

I assume it will follow in the footsteps of OotA and SKT and go:

1. Introductory adventure
2. Large "sandbox" section describing the geography of the region the adventure takes place (we may get some extra background historical info since Chult wasn't covered in SCAG like the areas in the other two APs)
3. Modular chapters that can be ran as an ongoing adventure or be taken out individually for shorter adventures or homebrew use.
4. Finale.

So I imagine we'll be seeing say 30 - 50 pages of sourcebook-type material in this, if past history is anything to go by...


----------



## Patrick McGill (Jun 3, 2017)

The current session being streamed is incredibly fun. Matt Mercer is getting into it.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 3, 2017)

Remathilis said:


> I don't want to derail this thread with anything political, but the classic "cannibalistic natives killing and eating the explorers" isn't the most flattering depiction of dark-skinned tribesmen out there.




Well, in Chult, the local humans tend to avoid that sort of trope.

The less savory aspects of the stereotypical "primitive natives" get shunted off to the Batiri, who, as goblins, are still acceptable targets for that sort of thing...


----------



## Shasarak (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Ugh. I hope it's not another special cover. Once was a neat gimmick. Two gets annoying and stops being special.




I actually hope it is another special cover and that WotC have another one that looks good.  This is a rare miss for the WotC Art department, usually they knock this stuff out of the park


----------



## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

There are 1.3 million people watching the live stream in the middle of a Friday night. 

Wow!

edit to add
Uh oh sorry. 6~7 thousand. The 1.3 million was total views.

Eh... get off my lawn!


----------



## vecna00 (Jun 3, 2017)

darjr said:


> There are 1.3 million people watching the live stream in the middle of a Friday night.
> 
> Wow!




Yes there are!
View attachment 84811


----------



## Olaf the Stout (Jun 3, 2017)

This adventure sounds really cool. That's the first WotC adventure for quite some time that has made think that.

Nothing against any of the previous WotC 5E adventures (and I've bought most of them still), but this one hooks me more off the bat compared to the others.


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 3, 2017)

Isn't he from Greyhawk world? When I saw that image, I remember a cover by Dragon Magazine. 

Spoiler (the face is a trap from Tomb of Horror).


----------



## Ketser (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which is why I'm hesitant about Acererak suddenly becoming a lich. And not lich a lich, but supposedly the most powerful lich. (Ummm... Vecna?) But Acererak _isn't_ a lich. He's the iconic demilich. So I'm understandably worried he might have suddenly changed into a lich for no reason and that the adventure won't even try to explain it.




In 5e demiliches are considered as degraded liches, who have lost both a lot of their power, most of their physical form and often their sanity. Something to note is that 5e demiliches can become liches again, if they manage to "feed" their phylactery.

Acererak is of course listed as a sort of exception in the MM, existing as a disembodied consciousness, travelling the planes and using his skull more as a trap to feed his phylactery, rather than than actually inhabiting it. So we can theorize that Acererak can return to "lich form" when he might need it and probably the adventure makes note that Acererak needing to have his full form for whatever reason. In any case it can be explained in the current lore.


----------



## Omega9999 (Jun 3, 2017)

Good. Very Good. They managed to steal Acererak and his Tomb from Greyhawk too.


----------



## Ath-kethin (Jun 3, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> While an 80% sourcebook would be nice, I doubt even the most hard-core Realms lore fanatic could come up with 200 (useful and meaningful) pages on Chult.
> 
> I assume it will follow in the footsteps of OotA and SKT and go:
> 
> ...




I don't disagree with you. I did call it "pipe dreaming."

Another alternative that I would like to see is a collection of diverse smaller adventures in the book. Kind of like Yawning Portal, but all set in Chult. 

I don't need a goofy giant adventure, is the takeaway here. I know it's what we will get because it's the business model that  seems to be working, but I can hope, can't I?


----------



## Hussar (Jun 3, 2017)

Considering that pretty much all of the iconic elements of Forgotten Realms got their start in Greyhawk, why are people shocked that this is continuing?  I mean, Drow, Undermountain, Waterdeep, etc - all adapted from Greyhawk.  What's the big deal.

Although, I would appreciate it if people would stop complaining about taking Isle of Dread out of Greyhawk.  Sorry, that wasn't part of Greyhawk.  Paizo yoinked that from Basic/Expert Mystara.  

Oh, wait... isn't that a bad thing...  Cross pollination from different settings is a bad thing right?  I'll have to remember that.


----------



## gyor (Jun 3, 2017)

Ath-kethin said:


> I don't disagree with you. I did call it "pipe dreaming."
> 
> Another alternative that I would like to see is a collection of diverse smaller adventures in the book. Kind of like Yawning Portal, but all set in Chult.
> 
> I don't need a goofy giant adventure, is the takeaway here. I know it's what we will get because it's the business model that  seems to be working, but I can hope, can't I?




 As I understand it Chult is intended to be Sandboxy.


----------



## gyor (Jun 3, 2017)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I don't really mind Forgotten Realms, but it is factually incorrect to say it is the default setting, since the WotC employees have consistently stated that the multiverse, not the Forgotten Realms, is the default setting.
> 
> Sure, it is the adventure and transmedia product focus, but that isn't the same thing as a default setting.




 In practice by multiverse, they mean the Swordcoast ;p


----------



## murquhart72 (Jun 3, 2017)

Sword of Spirit said:


> I don't really mind Forgotten Realms, but it is factually incorrect to say it is the default setting, since the WotC employees have consistently stated that the multiverse, not the Forgotten Realms, is the default setting.
> 
> Sure, it is the adventure and transmedia product focus, but that isn't the same thing as a default setting.



Saying the Earth is flat doesn't make it any less round. By definition (a preselected option adopted by a computer program or other mechanism when no alternative is specified by the user or programmer) it is factually the default setting, regardless how WotC spins it.


----------



## murquhart72 (Jun 3, 2017)

I saw the DMG and, after reading the cover description, spent far too long looking for a jeweled skull in the picture. Now it appears there are TWO Acereraks: a sneaky, devious demi lich in Greyhawk and a wet behind the ears uber lich in Faerun.
I also have characters in different worlds that share the same name


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 3, 2017)

(Sorry if already mentioned. Thread too big to read. I did search for "plate" with zero results)

What I would be interested in is if Tomb will feature any rules that hose wearers of metal armor in a hot steamy jungle setting?

It would really make things interesting if full plate is off the table!


----------



## Hussar (Jun 3, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> (Sorry if already mentioned. Thread too big to read. I did search for "plate" with zero results)
> 
> What I would be interested in is if Tomb will feature any rules that hose wearers of metal armor in a hot steamy jungle setting?
> 
> It would really make things interesting if full plate is off the table!




Although if they go that way then Dex becomes even more the go to stat.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 3, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Although if they go that way then Dex becomes even more the go to stat.



That's why I'm interested in their take  

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 3, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Oh, wait... isn't that a bad thing...  Cross pollination from different settings is a bad thing right?  I'll have to remember that.



I've been bothered by this ever since I realized Faerun has 365 days in a year, EXACTLY like another famous setting used in a lot of games and novels.


----------



## The_Gunslinger658 (Jun 3, 2017)

During the Crusades where we westerners tried to boot out the muslims from their various stromholds or met the muslims on the battle field, the Crusaders wore full plate into battle IE in very hot weather lol.




CapnZapp said:


> (Sorry if already mentioned. Thread too big to read. I did search for "plate" with zero results)
> 
> What I would be interested in is if Tomb will feature any rules that hose wearers of metal armor in a hot steamy jungle setting?
> 
> It would really make things interesting if full plate is off the table!


----------



## bjj8383 (Jun 3, 2017)

Anyone else sick and bloody tired of Forgotten Realms?


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 3, 2017)

bjj8383 said:


> Anyone else sick and bloody tired of Forgotten Realms?



No, you must be the first one bringing this up  

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## murquhart72 (Jun 3, 2017)

Have they announced the Central Flanaess Adventurer's Guide yet? SO looking forward to that book!


----------



## akr71 (Jun 3, 2017)

Prakriti said:


> Yep. I wish this forum's rules against edition warring extended to setting warring as well. Like, we get it, some people don't like FR. Good for them. But 5E is the current edition and FR is the current default setting. Kvetching doesn't help.




Right on!  It is really getting quite tiring.

While Greyhawk and Krynn have a nostalgic hold on me, I certainly don't mind WotC publishing their adventures in FR.  I DM in FR cuz I wanna explore it with my players.  A lot of it is new and fresh to me.  If I really cared that much, I would not hesitate to put in the effort to convert to my setting of choice.


----------



## National Acrobat (Jun 3, 2017)

It's not like you can't just move it to another setting. That's what my group has done. We've just put everything Lankhmar or Greyhawk, the two settings we use. Lankhmar takes a little bit of work though, since the only playable races are humans.


----------



## epithet (Jun 3, 2017)

bjj8383 said:


> Anyone else sick and bloody tired of Forgotten Realms?




The FR serves nicely as a generic dumping ground for these adventures. Other than Phandelver (which I used to get myself and my group familiarised with 5e,) I haven't run a 5e product "as written." I have, however, used them as resources, and taken encounters, maps, NPCs, plot elements, etc. to use in my game. This one seems like it will be very handy for that, and I'm looking forward to it.

The more I think about what WotC is doing with the Forgotten Realms, the more I'm not at all upset that they're ignoring Greyhawk. There are already plenty of Greyhawk resources from TSR, fans and enthusiasts, and third party developers. The setting is robustly developed while providing ample flexibility for me to do my own thing with it. I've gotten pretty good at quick conversions of earlier edition adventures and monsters to 5e, and I have dozens, maybe hundreds of great old modules to work with (file boxes full of them.)

While I have no intention of, or interest in, running a game in the Forgotten Realms, I'm delighted for WotC to continue dumping all of their content there for me to look through. What I like eventually goes into my game, what I don't can stay Forgotten.


----------



## dave2008 (Jun 3, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> (Sorry if already mentioned. Thread too big to read. I did search for "plate" with zero results)
> 
> What I would be interested in is if Tomb will feature any rules that hose wearers of metal armor in a hot steamy jungle setting?
> 
> It would really make things interesting if full plate is off the table!




I haven't heard anything about plate specifically, but there was some mention of being able to play it on "hard" mode or something similar.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> (Sorry if already mentioned. Thread too big to read. I did search for "plate" with zero results)
> 
> What I would be interested in is if Tomb will feature any rules that hose wearers of metal armor in a hot steamy jungle setting?
> 
> It would really make things interesting if full plate is off the table!



I imagine they'll just use the regular rules for extreme heat in the _Dungeon Master's Guide _that penalise people in heavy armour and clothing.

They did mention a "hard mode" version of the game, where you need to roll a 15+ on a death save for it to be a success.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 3, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> I haven't heard anything about plate specifically, but there was some mention of being able to play it on "hard" mode or something similar.



Yes, but that's DC 15 death saves.

My ideal game is one where strength + armor is significantly upgraded visavi 5e, so the heat and moisture can then bring that down a notch!  

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## Prakriti (Jun 3, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> I haven't heard anything about plate specifically, but there was some mention of being able to play it on "hard" mode or something similar.



The only details we've gotten about "Meatgrinder Mode" so far is that Death saves are DC 15 and resurrection magic is hampered in some way. 

Personally, I think the change to Death saves is insignificant. Why not move the whole table by 4-5 points instead of just the DC?

1-5: Critical Failure
6-14: Failure 
15-24: Success 
25+: Critical Success

That, at least, would have an impact on the game.


----------



## machineelf (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm both excited and nervous for this. My campaign is set in the older Forgotten Realms. circa 1372 DR. So I ignore any changes that have happened after that and rely on earlier content. Because of that, Mezro in my world has never been destroyed. I hope this AP has enough useful information (and a useful enough map) for me to use. For example, if the map says "Ruins of Mezro" instead of just "Mezro," I will be disappointed.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

I wonder if [MENTION=52905]darjr[/MENTION] or a mod like [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] could make this a wiki thread. 
So we can edit in summaries and product announcements into the first post...


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jun 3, 2017)

secondhander said:


> I'm both excited and nervous for this. My campaign is set in the older Forgotten Realms. circa 1372 DR. So I ignore any changes that have happened after that and rely on earlier content. Because of that, Mezro in my world has never been destroyed. I hope this AP has enough useful information (and a useful enough map) for me to use. For example, if the map says "Ruins of Mezro" instead of just "Mezro," I will be disappointed.




I think it will say ruins of Mezro like in SCAG.  But maybe rest is still usefull for you.


----------



## machineelf (Jun 3, 2017)

vpuigdoller said:


> I think it will say ruins of Mezro like in SCAG.  But maybe rest is still usefull for you.




I hope so!


----------



## Hutchimus Prime (Jun 3, 2017)

Is there a summary of all the announcements about it anywhere yet?


----------



## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

The videos of yesterday are on twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/dnd/videos/all

Each is separated so you don't need to watch the entire thing. 

Joe Manganiello's Welcome: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149019422
Welcome and Product Reveal: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149020077
Dice, Camera, Action Episode 51: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149021612
SoA - Thomas Foss on Neverwinter: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149029458 / https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149033723
Dice, Camera, Action interview: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149035094
C-Team Game: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149037566
WizKids Interview: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149069733
C-Team Interview: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149070850
Meat Grinder Showcase: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149074108
Dice Tin Announcement & Dice Rituals: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149076777
Force Grey Interview: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149080811
One Grung Above: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149082941
D&D Beyond: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149210701
Critical Role Interview: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149211506
Maze Arcana: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149212213
Fantasy Grounds: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149213039
Tower of the Curator: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/149214990


----------



## epithet (Jun 3, 2017)

secondhander said:


> I'm both excited and nervous for this. My campaign is set in the older Forgotten Realms. circa 1372 DR. So I ignore any changes that have happened after that and rely on earlier content. Because of that, Mezro in my world has never been destroyed. I hope this AP has enough useful information (and a useful enough map) for me to use. For example, if the map says "Ruins of Mezro" instead of just "Mezro," I will be disappointed.




I don't know anything about Mezro or how it was destroyed, but you could always have "the destruction of Mezro" be The Event that launches the campaign in some way, and then carry on after the AP with the party reclaiming and rebuilding Mezro on their way to level 20.


----------



## Prakriti (Jun 3, 2017)

_Xanathar's Guide to Everything_ confirmed -- November release!

"Tools and toys for Dungeon Masters to expand their game."

"Each class gets 3 or more new subclasses, except Wizards." 

This is the new mechanical expansion/Unearthed Arcana book.

Will include new traps and downtime rules.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

Hutchimus Prime said:


> Is there a summary of all the announcements about it anywhere yet?




Second post now summarises.


----------



## Mercule (Jun 3, 2017)

Scott_Holst said:


> During the Crusades where we westerners tried to boot out the muslims from their various stromholds or met the muslims on the battle field, the Crusaders wore full plate into battle IE in very hot weather lol.




The biggest problem was when they landed in the Nile valley and decided to march from there. Swamps mix less well with heavy armor than does heat.


----------



## machineelf (Jun 3, 2017)

epithet said:


> I don't know anything about Mezro or how it was destroyed, but you could always have "the destruction of Mezro" be The Event that launches the campaign in some way, and then carry on after the AP with the party reclaiming and rebuilding Mezro on their way to level 20.




That's creative, and I like the story idea. But the problem is it forces me to have to deal with the situation of Mezro being destroyed in some way or another, when maybe I don't want that storyline at all in my campaign world to begin with. It is what it is. I'm hoping the basic background info on Chult they provide in this product is minimally changed from 1372 DR, and I'll be able to use most of it in my own world. And I'll just tell my players to ignore that "ruins" part under "Ruins of Mezro." 

It's the price I pay for rejecting the annoying changes to the FR that have been made over the course of 4th edition and into 5th edition. It means that all of the FR realms products they produce these days are tainted for me, and at best I can pick them over for some useful information and reject the rest of it.


----------



## Barantor (Jun 3, 2017)

So for me it's a big Hepmonaland expansion for Greyhawk lol.

Xanathar's guide could be interesting, but I'm wondering how much content will be in it that isn't in the UA articles and how much has it changed. (Swashbuckler didn't change that much from UA to SCAG).

Some of these streamed games are pretty good, some seem to be more 'party game' style with lots of yuks. The meatgrinder was interesting.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 3, 2017)

My guess for the new subclasses in Xanathars Guide:
Barbarian: Ancestral Guardian, Storm Herald, Zealot
Bard: College of Swords, Glamour, Whispers
Cleric: Forge, Protection, Grave
Druic: Dreams, Shepherd, Twilight
Fighter: Arcane Archer, Knight, Samurai
Monk: Kensei, Tranquility, Drunken Master
Paladin: Conquest, Treachery, Redemption
Ranger: Deep Stalker, Horizon Walker, Primeval Guardian, Monster Slayer
Rogue: Inquisitive, Scout
Sorcerer: Favored Soul, Phoenix, Sea, Stone
Warlock: The Hexblade, The Raven Queen, The Seeker
Wizard: Theurgy


----------



## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I wonder if [MENTION=52905]darjr[/MENTION] or a mod like [MENTION=1]Morrus[/MENTION] could make this a wiki thread.
> So we can edit in summaries and product announcements into the first post...




I would but I'm not sure how. I'm at a con at the moment.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 3, 2017)

darjr said:


> I would but I'm not sure how. I'm at a con at the moment.




There should be a checkbox you can toggle if you edit the first post.


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## SigmaOne (Jun 3, 2017)

View attachment 84832

Betrayal at Baldur's Gate!  New D&D themed betrayal at house on haunted hill game.


----------



## Quickleaf (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The videos of yesterday are on twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/dnd/videos/all
> 
> Each is separated so you don't need to watch the entire thing.
> 
> ...




Thanks Jester  I watched these two and enjoyed them. Tower of the Curator (2 hours), with Mike Mearls DMing, is a terrific game – good example of how to be a DM. Really fun group of players too: Chris Perkins, Matthew Lillard, Dylan Sprouse, Kim Hidalgo, Liam O’Brien, Joe Manganiello, Marisha Ray, and Matt Mercer.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 3, 2017)

So, as per someone watching the stream on Reddit:


"New Monster and Race Stuff for 5e (some may have appeared in past iterations or in Volo's, but are now the focus of ToA)

    Four-Armed Gargoyles (a la Tomb of Horrors)

    Stacking Goblins with Crazy Masks

    Grungs

    Undead Dinosaurs

    More Dinosaurs

    Pterafolk

    Flying Monkeys

    Other Flying Stuff (said as a joke by Perkins)

    Red Wizards"


Looks like some overlap with Volo's, although it may be we'll see new varieties of grungs and dinosaurs (although I thought Volo's did an excellent job of giving us the main remaining "stock dinosaurs", but I'm fine if they fill in a few remaining gaps like _Iguanodon_ or more aquatic reptiles).  Undead dinosaurs sound like a lot of fun, and good to see the pterafolk get updated!


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## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

SigmaOne said:


> View attachment 84832
> 
> Betrayal at Baldur's Gate!  New D&D themed betrayal at house on haunted hill game.




Did not see that coming. Wow!


----------



## darjr (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Second post now summarises.




Don't see it. Maybe because Russ promoted to an article he might have to do it.


----------



## PinkRose (Jun 3, 2017)

I see it. He's got Everything!


----------



## Kyvin (Jun 3, 2017)

I'm trying to figure out what the flying creature with the spear is in the picture for the new board game. It looks kind of like an aarakocra but not exactly. Any ideas?


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jun 3, 2017)

Aarakocra tropical parrot version?


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## doctorhook (Jun 3, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I *really* hope they explain that. I'll be annoyed if it's just like Tiamat being trapped in the Nine Hells.
> "Here's a big change to canon for no reason other than it works with our story, that we couldn't even bother spending a single sentence justifying ..."



Of all the things in Tyranny of Dragons, that's the one that annoys you? TBH I'm A-OK with Tiamat trapped in the Nine Hells; seems like how things were back when she was an archdevil.


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## EthanSental (Jun 4, 2017)

Seems like another possible win for the adventure, then throw in the other items and September - November has a lot of fun stuff to purchase.


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## Irennan (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> That's a pretty cynical take...
> 
> Which doesn't seem to bother any of the other gods that dwell in Hell or the Abyss.
> And she wasn't portrayed as trapped before.
> ...




If you're interested, Ed Greenwood provided an explanation for Tiamat. Given that WotC hasn't contradicted it (nor they will ever bother to, ofc), it's even official.



> *Q*Okay, here's one about recent continuity that I and a few others have been scratching our heads over.
> 
> Since third edition, the goddess Tiamat has not been living in Avernus like she has in all the other campaign settings. Powers and Pantheons said that she would officially join the Faerûnian Pantheon in the middle of 1371 DR. Her divine realm since joining has been listed alternately as Heliopolis (in Faiths and Pantheons), Dragon Eyrie (in the Player's Guide to Faerûn) and Banehold, serving Bane (in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide), despite Faiths and Pantheons saying that Bane was one of her enemies.
> 
> ...


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## Prakriti (Jun 4, 2017)

Irennan said:


> If you're interested, Ed Greenwood provided an explanation for Tiamat. Given that WotC hasn't contradicted it (nor they will ever bother to, ofc), it's even official.
> 
> (5,000 words about lore)



I would have been happy with "A wizard did it."


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## Azzy (Jun 4, 2017)

bjj8383 said:


> Anyone else sick and bloody tired of Forgotten Realms?



I am, but I'm even more sick of people whining on about it.


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## Azzy (Jun 4, 2017)

secondhander said:


> I'm both excited and nervous for this. My campaign is set in the older Forgotten Realms. circa 1372 DR. So I ignore any changes that have happened after that and rely on earlier content. Because of that, Mezro in my world has never been destroyed. I hope this AP has enough useful information (and a useful enough map) for me to use. For example, if the map says "Ruins of Mezro" instead of just "Mezro," I will be disappointed.



Prepare to be disappointed, then. Why would the adventure not reflect the current timeline that's in SCAG (which also depicts Mezro in ruins).


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## Azzy (Jun 4, 2017)

Scott_Holst said:


> During the Crusades where we westerners tried to boot out the muslims from their various stromholds or met the muslims on the battle field, the Crusaders wore full plate into battle IE in very hot weather lol.




Full plate didn't develop until waaay late. The bulk of the Crusades were fought wearing mail.


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## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

Gale Force 9 will be releasing minis: 
* Paladin riding velociraptor
* [EDIT: This is incorrect! My apologies for any confusion caused. See Starfyre's comment downthread. T-Rex vomiting undead]
* Stacking masked goblins

Edit: To be clear, this was just some of the minis. I don't know how many, or what the others were.

Edit 2: The full Gale Force 9 Interview can be watched here.


----------



## The_Gunslinger658 (Jun 4, 2017)

I too still use FR in the D&D 3.5 era for my 5E campaign and Pathfinder campaign sprinkled with bits and pieces of Greyhawk. I include both the Greyhawk gods and Hommlet in my FR campaign because I like both of those worlds. 

As for AP's, I really do not buy them, after the disaster that was HotDQ, which in itself was an interesting adventure, it just required way too much work to play out, it was basically set the players on rails and go.  I like giving mt players options and they really did not care for the premises of HotDQ.  Any DM worth his salt can come up with his own adventure with a Lich Lord on an island full of dinosaurs and zombies, it aint rocket science plus as the DM you are not beholden to the adventures quirks. 

Now if wotc did an AP based on adventuring throughout the multi verse from level 1 to 20, I would be down for that. It would be like the players have to hunt down a piece of the Macguffin on verious parts of the multi verse to destroly a super planur threat (a Demon lord or some such trope), whoa mohammad, I can do that lol.

Scott     



secondhander said:


> I'm both excited and nervous for this. My campaign is set in the older Forgotten Realms. circa 1372 DR. So I ignore any changes that have happened after that and rely on earlier content. Because of that, Mezro in my world has never been destroyed. I hope this AP has enough useful information (and a useful enough map) for me to use. For example, if the map says "Ruins of Mezro" instead of just "Mezro," I will be disappointed.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 4, 2017)

murquhart72 said:


> Saying the Earth is flat doesn't make it any less round. By definition (a preselected option adopted by a computer program or other mechanism when no alternative is specified by the user or programmer) it is factually the default setting, regardless how WotC spins it.




Sure, but that definition doesn't fit 5e.

The PHB (and other core books) reference multiple worlds. Here's a quote from the Basic Rules (same as the PHB) in the selection on races (the High Elf sub-race entry to be specifid), where you are creating your character. If there were a default, it should probably show up here:

"As a high elf, you have a keen mind and a mastery of at least the basics of magic. In *many of the worlds of D&D*, there are two kinds of high elves. One type (which includes the *gray elves and valley elves of Greyhawk*, the *Silvanesti of Dragonlance*, and the *sun elves of the Forgotten Realms)* is haughty and reclusive, believing themselves to be superior to non-elves and even other elves. The other type (including the *high elves of Greyhawk*, the* Qualinesti of Dragonlance*, and the *moon elves of the Forgotten Realms*) are more common and more friendly, and often encountered among humans and other races. 
The *sun elves of Faerûn (also called gold elves or sunrise elves)* have bronze skin and hair of copper, black, or golden blond. Their eyes are golden, silver, or black. *Moon elves (also called silver elves or gray elves) [of Faerun]* are much paler, with alabaster skin sometimes tinged with blue. They often have hair of silver-white, black, or blue, but various shades of blond, brown, and red are not uncommon. Their eyes are blue or green and flecked with gold."

The only default I can find in there is the "many worlds of D&D". Sure, the second paragraph _focuses_ on the Forgotten Realms, but there is _nothing in there that implies that you are playing a Forgotten Realms high elf as a preselected option unless you specify another alternative_.

The entire core rulebooks, including PHB, DMG, MM, and even Volo's Guide to Monsters are exactly the same. 

Now, the Sword Coast Adventurers Guide is a Forgotten Realms product, and _everything in there *is*_ Forgotten Realms by default.The mega-adventures _*are*_ set in the Forgotten Realms by default (except for Curse of Strahd). Tales from the Yawning Portal has a fairly weak default Forgotten Realms introduction (with a Greyhawk alternative), though the adventures themselves each either default to their original setting (with options for setting them in other worlds) or have no default (only options) given. This means that only one of the seven adventures (Dead in Thay) is set in the Forgotten Realms by default, compared to three set in Greyhawk, and three more that were originally Greyhawk (but given no default in this presentation).

There is a _focus_ on the Forgotten realms in mega-adventures, organized play, and transmedia, and there is one non-adventure book (SCAG) that is an explicitly Forgotten Realms product. But nothing else (except for the TftYP intro, and maybe the VGtM intro if you want to force it) defaults to the Forgotten Realms.

It is factually incorrect to state that the Forgotten Realms is the default setting for 5e D&D.


----------



## Dire Bare (Jun 4, 2017)

Irennan said:


> If you're interested, Ed Greenwood provided an explanation for Tiamat. Given that WotC hasn't contradicted it (nor they will ever bother to, ofc), it's even official.




Yeesh. That read like a wiki entry on a comic book superhero; long, twisty, and full of nonsensical retcons. And, how does Ed saying something make it "official"? Not that it matters, these small discontinuities in canon are easy to ignore and change if needed. So, Tiamat's details were different in previous editions of the game . . . so what? The current design team is free to pick which one they think works best for the story they are trying to tell, and the fans are free to use it, or reject it in favor of their own preferred story.

Don't use canon as a straight-jacket, free yourself!


----------



## Irennan (Jun 4, 2017)

Dire Bare said:


> Yeesh. That read like a wiki entry on a comic book superhero; long, twisty, and full of nonsensical retcons. And, how does Ed saying something make it "official"? Not that it matters, these small discontinuities in canon are easy to ignore and change if needed. So, Tiamat's details were different in previous editions of the game . . . so what? The current design team is free to pick which one they think works best for the story they are trying to tell, and the fans are free to use it, or reject it in favor of their own preferred story.
> 
> Don't use canon as a straight-jacket, free yourself!




It's a clause to Ed's contract that all he says about the Realms is canon unless contradicted by TSR. That was "inherited" by WotC.

As for the explanation and canon. I don't care about canon in my game. I don't need you to tell me that I can do whatever I want. However, continuity is important for a setting with a deep history like the Realms (and I mean the published version of it), otherwise why even bother with it, if you're going to ignore one of its defining traits and go all retcon-happy. Even cheesy explanations are better than no explanation at all ( you can ignore them after all, but at least a semblance of continuity would be kept). WotC can do whatever they want, but let's not pretend that ignoring previous lore is a good way to take care of an IP that is about its history and lore like the Realms (even if there are many who just use it as a map, those are important traits to the setting itself, what distinguishes it from other generic fantasy worlds).

A new set of rules doesn't change the story either (even tho 5e FR was a sort of in-universe reboot).


----------



## Mirtek (Jun 4, 2017)

Sword of Spirit said:


> Sure, but that definition doesn't fit 5e.



 It absolutely does. It's simply not what they say that matters, but what they do


Sword of Spirit said:


> The PHB (and other core books) reference multiple worlds.



 Which doesn'T change what is actually happening.

Yes, officially the setting is the multiverse. Yes, there have been reference to it everywhere. But that's all there is. WotC has in practice done 87% FR, 13% Ravenloft and that's it. If we're generous we could count the smatterings of mentionings of other settings as another 1%, then we're at 86% FR, 13% RL, 1% others


Sword of Spirit said:


> There is a _focus_ on the Forgotten realms in mega-adventures, organized play, and transmedia, and there is one non-adventure book (SCAG) that is an explicitly Forgotten Realms product. But nothing else (except for the TftYP intro, and maybe the VGtM intro if you want to force it) defaults to the Forgotten Realms.



 But there is nothing else. That's his point.


Sword of Spirit said:


> It is factually incorrect to state that the Forgotten Realms is the default setting for 5e D&D.



In practice it is, because almost everything that WotC releases is FR. They say that the mutliverse is the default, but theyre all but exclusively use the FR corner of it.


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## pogre (Jun 4, 2017)

The WOTC/HasBro folks know way more than me about marketing, but it's hard for me to get too fired up for a release we will not see until mid-September.


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## StarFyre (Jun 4, 2017)

That's it ?   was hoping for more...

Still upset they never did a Baphomet when they did those demonlords (need to try and sculpt my own now) or the cloud and stone giants with the last adventure plans.



SigmaOne said:


> Gale Force 9 will be releasing minis:
> * Paladin riding velociraptor
> * T-Rex vomiting undead
> * Stacking masked goblins


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 4, 2017)

Irennan said:


> If you're interested, Ed Greenwood provided an explanation for Tiamat. Given that WotC hasn't contradicted it (nor they will ever bother to, ofc), it's even official.



No, that's not how "official" works.


----------



## Irennan (Jun 4, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> No, that's not how "official" works.




Yes, it is when it comes to Ed Greenwood and the Realms. As I explained above, it's a clause to his contract with TSR, which WotC inherited. You may not accept it as lore for your game, like many do even with WotC's material, but it still is canon.

Ed Greenwood made sure that such clause was included, alongside a reversion clause, to be able to keep publishing the Realms in case TSR decided to shelf the IP.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Jun 4, 2017)

Is there any news on what level this will be for?


----------



## Edwin Suijkerbuijk (Jun 4, 2017)

Kyvin said:


> I'm trying to figure out what the flying creature with the spear is in the picture for the new board game. It looks kind of like an aarakocra but not exactly. Any ideas?




http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aearee

could it be one of these, they did a bit about the creator races on the DnD podcast in the last weeks.


----------



## Scott McFarland (Jun 4, 2017)

So... we don't get the awesome black/red official dice they were using? And peeps there were wearing an array of nice shirts which we can't have either. Along with the mugs we can't have. *Facepalm*


----------



## Kyvin (Jun 4, 2017)

I think it's actually going to be a new flavor of Aarakocra. Apparently some live on Chult in the Miscliffs. I hope they are included as a player option, especially since they have never made it into a print source.

I found this preview pic:


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## dave2008 (Jun 4, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> No, that's not how "official" works.




I believe when it comes to Ed and the Realms that is exactly how it works.  If I remember correctly his contract with WotC says as much.  Of course I have never actually seen it, just what people say on this inter-web thing.


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## Rellott (Jun 4, 2017)

*The New D&amp;D Adventure Is - Tomb of Annihilation!*



Scott_Holst said:


> As for AP's, I really do not buy them, after the disaster that was HotDQ, which in itself was an interesting adventure, it just required way too much work to play out, it was basically set the players on rails and go.  I like giving mt players options and they really did not care for the premises of HotDQ.  Any DM worth his salt can come up with his own adventure with a Lich Lord on an island full of dinosaurs and zombies, it aint rocket science plus as the DM you are not beholden to the adventures quirks.
> 
> Now if wotc did an AP based on adventuring throughout the multi verse from level 1 to 20, I would be down for that. It would be like the players have to hunt down a piece of the Macguffin on verious parts of the multi verse to destroly a super planur threat (a Demon lord or some such trope), whoa mohammad, I can do that lol.
> 
> Scott




"Any DM worth his salt"... That expression bothers me. 

Any DM worth his salt could come up with his own adventure with the players hunting down pieces of a Macguffin in various parts of the multiverse to destroy a super planar threat. Why would you bother buying an AP for that? 

Essentially your argument is self-defeating and is an excuse to put down others who buy the AP and/or like it by saying they are inadequate. Why would you buy said multiversal adventure instead of creating it yourself? Because it's too much work? Requires too much time and/or creativity? Requires too much knowledge of the lore to pull off adequately? Based on yours and others' derision of WotC's handling of the FR and adventures set there, I don't think you'd be happy with their creativity and use of the lore even if they did create that AP (which would have to be two or three times the length of a current AP book to provide the necessary information to run it, if not longer). 

Some people are perfectly capable DMs who just don't have the time, energy, creativity, or lore/system mastery to go and create their own full AP, so as a DM who according to you isn't worth his salt because he uses the published APs (and even modifies them to suit his preferences and players, because that's a thing a DM worth his salt would do!), but whose players are having a perfectly wonderful time, I'd appreciate it if you stopped belittling the apparently large number of people who like and buy these adventures.

You could use the extra time not doing that to write that multiplanar adventure!


----------



## gyor (Jun 4, 2017)

Edwin Suijkerbuijk said:


> http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Aearee
> 
> could it be one of these, they did a bit about the creator races on the DnD podcast in the last weeks.




 I believe that the Aarakocra are descendants of the Aearee in the forgotten realms so your not completely wrong,  but yeah it's most likely the Aarakocra of the Mistcliffs,  as others have said.


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## murquhart72 (Jun 4, 2017)

Sword of Spirit said:


> The only default I can find in there is the "many worlds of D&D". Sure, the second paragraph _focuses_ on the Forgotten Realms, but there is _nothing in there that implies that you are playing a Forgotten Realms high elf as a preselected option unless you specify another alternative_.




Of course, my answer was an analogy and the issue with implications are they are subjective. Fact is, if you aren't stating a particular setting, WotC (and by extension, any reasonable person playing 5E) can safely assume you're in the Forgotten Realms/Sword Coast. It's how they've modeled the entire line.
Forgotten Realms, whether we like it or not, IS the default D&D setting when it comes to WotC published products. It's where they game, it's where every adventure they publish at least starts, it is the focus of every single example used (even when the "multiverse" is mentioned).
The sky is blue, water is wet, FR is D&D's current default setting, d10 is not a polyhedron, liquids and cats change shape to fill their containers... These are things only the mentally ill argue against.
I ain't even mad that that is the case, I just hate seeing the company constantly denying something any sane person can see with their own eyes.
I'm sorry, but there's no way you can convince me otherwise but if you feel like beating the corpse of this horse than by all means, have your last word and enjoy


----------



## murquhart72 (Jun 4, 2017)

Ah screw this, I'm gonna go make my own Tomb of Acererak, WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS!


----------



## Henry (Jun 4, 2017)

murquhart72 said:


> Ah screw this, I'm gonna go make my own Tomb of Acererak, WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS!




Post that "Blackjack and Hookers" supplement to the Tomb of Annihilation on DM's Guild, and I'll definitely buy it.


----------



## Henry (Jun 4, 2017)

I have to say with all the extra details now, this sounds way cooler than the initial info. The Xanathar book also sounds like it's gonna be pretty popular this year, too, especially with my group. At least this explains all the stuff going on in the Acquisitions Inc game last time, with Jim "degrading" and Portentia's resurrection failing. 

(I also learned it's really hard to intuitively spell "Annihilation".  )

Wish I could get all the add-ons for this, but chances are I'll just pick up the main AP and Xanathar book when they come out - Xanathar's in perfect time to go on a Xmas list.


----------



## Tales and Chronicles (Jun 4, 2017)

murquhart72 said:


> Ah screw this, I'm gonna go make my own Tomb of Acererak, WITH BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS!




Xanathar's guide to everything will have the expanded rules on Carousing and Gambling, all your needs to add BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS to every AP so far. Cant wait.


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

No, this was just a selection of the set of minis coming out by GF9.  They showed others, but I didn't catch them.


----------



## Irennan (Jun 4, 2017)

dave2008 said:


> I believe when it comes to Ed and the Realms that is exactly how it works.  If I remember correctly his contract with WotC says as much.  Of course I have never actually seen it, just what people say on this inter-web thing.




Here's what Ed himself said on the matter. I directly asked him when having this very discussion in another thread, and this is his answer.



> Hi, Petter. Back in 1986, when TSR bought the Realms, they'd been aware of it since my articles in "The Dragon" (as it was then known) had started in 1979, and I'd been writing about it for 20 years or so. Having seen settings just "fall into limbo" when publishers went under or changed direction, I got some things put into my agreements with TSR over the years, and one of them was that everything I'd already written about the Realms, and would write or say, in interviews or at conventions, in the future, would be "official" or "canon" until something later published by TSR superceded it; WotC inherited this arrangement when they acquired TSR, and it still stands.
> Anyone is free to have their own personal interpretation of what's canon FOR THEM, but that's the legal one, regarding canon FOR EVERYONE. Which they're stuck with, because they wouldn't know about the Realms AT ALL (unless they were in my local gaming group, or the readers of the long-running Campaign Hack zine, or readers of the Realms fiction published before TSR or D&D existed) except by virtue of that agreement.
> The entire point of this, and the reversion clause, is that if the Realms ever vanished as a published imprint, I could continue to use it and publish new lore about it.
> Hope that clarifies...




A SS of the asnwer.

[sblock]View attachment 84840[/sblock]


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

Scott McFarland said:


> So... we don't get the awesome black/red official dice they were using? And peeps there were wearing an array of nice shirts which we can't have either. Along with the mugs we can't have. *Facepalm*




I own both the dice and the mug. They sold them during the live stream for Tales of the Yawning Portal. Sorry if you missed out, but they definitely sold them before so it isn't like they are hoarding them for themselves.


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

Rellott said:


> "Any DM worth his salt"... That expression bothers me.
> 
> Any DM worth his salt could come up with his own adventure with the players hunting down pieces of a Macguffin in various parts of the multiverse to destroy a super planar threat. Why would you bother buying an AP for that?




To say nothing of the fact that the person you quoted is actually saying "Any DM worth his salt can do something as yet unspecified; as I have not actually read the adventure, and I only heard a one-sentence description, so I really don't know at all how good or bad the product will be." The number of people on the forums who make pre-judgments about a product without actually knowing much is just staggering. It's fine to reject the thing based on the known specifics, if that's your inclination: "sorry, I'm sick of undead" or "I don't want dinosaurs in my D&D" or "I'm afraid this might have racist colonial themes, so I'm not sure I'm going to want it".  There are plenty of reasonable negative statements to be made, and some have been in this thread. But, implying that the product will only live up to the minimum standards of DM competence ("any DM worth their salt") based just on just a few details is not reasonable.  

Any DM worth their salt should know that a one sentence description can lead in infinitely many directions, and should not take as their first assumption that the direction will be a lack of, or minimal, creativity.  People who aren't sold on the concept can wait until reviews come out to see if they might be interested. People who know the given themes aren't for them can move on. But of course they won't, because this is the internet, and (unlike the famous Avenue Q song implies) the internet is really for complaining.


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> I own both the dice and the mug. They sold them during the live stream for Tales of the Yawning Portal. Sorry if you missed out, but they definitely sold them before so it isn't like they are hoarding them for themselves.




Whoever was representing D&D in the twitch chat definitely said something that left a hope these might be sold, when someone asked a question about it during chat last night. I don't remember exactly how it was phrased, I think it was a little stronger than "Not currently for sale" (which doesn't really imply you can get them) and a little weaker than "Not for sale yet" (which has some implication that they would be). I was definitely left with the feeling that they "might" be for sale.


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

pogre said:


> The WOTC/HasBro folks know way more than me about marketing, but it's hard for me to get too fired up for a release we will not see until mid-September.




The big announcement for me was that there is going to be a bunch of new streamed campaigns on the DnD Twitch site related to this setting/theme.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

SigmaOne said:


> Whoever was representing D&D in the twitch chat definitely said something that left a hope these might be sold, when someone asked a question about it during chat last night. I don't remember exactly how it was phrased, I think it was a little stronger than "Not currently for sale" (which doesn't really imply you can get them) and a little weaker than "Not for sale yet" (which has some implication that they would be). I was definitely left with the feeling that they "might" be for sale.




They were for sale in the past, and probably will be in the future.


----------



## Erdric Dragin (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm confused.

I thought the Forgotten Realms was "restored" almost back to the way it was?

So why is Chult still an island? And why is Samarach, Thindol, and other nations along what USED to be a peninsula, still gone?

This is upsetting. As a Forgotten Realms fan.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 4, 2017)

Scott McFarland said:


> So... we don't get the awesome black/red official dice they were using? And peeps there were wearing an array of nice shirts which we can't have either. Along with the mugs we can't have. *Facepalm*



They give a bunch of stuff out as promo items that they hand out to special guests or during conventions. Like stickers, dice, pins, and notebooks.
Which is odd as I would throw money at them for the d20 and a mug. Or a simple T-shirt. But they seem to want those are rare or promo items. 

WotC makes it really, really hard to be a collector...


----------



## gyor (Jun 4, 2017)

Erdric Dragin said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> I thought the Forgotten Realms was "restored" almost back to the way it was?
> 
> ...




 I think some people misspoke,  it's a penisala now,  not an Island anymore. It's isolated by mountains however.

 And Samarach isn't gone  its merely hidden by Illusions accordiing to the SCAG.

 One interesting thing I learned on Candlekeep is that Mezro Ruins aren't the real Mezro, the real Mezro was pushed into a demiplane during the spellplague, and the ruins are just a decoy.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> They give a bunch of stuff out as promo items that they hand out to special guests or during conventions. Like stickers, dice, pins, and notebooks.
> Which is odd as I would throw money at them for the d20 and a mug. Or a simple T-shirt. But they seem to want those are rare or promo items.
> 
> WotC makes it really, really hard to be a collector...




As I said above, those dice and mugs were for sale just a few months ago. You may have missed out, but that doesn't change that they were available. I bought them, so I know they were for sale.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 4, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> As I said above, those dice and mugs were for sale just a few months ago. You may have missed out, but that doesn't change that they were available. I bought them, so I know they were for sale.



But where? 
WeLoveFine? Your game store? A subpage of the WotC site?

I don't recall seeing any announcement, so it must have been a short little perk. Which, again, makes it hard to collect.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> But where?
> WeLoveFine? Your game store? A subpage of the WotC site?
> 
> I don't recall seeing any announcement, so it must have been a short little perk. Which, again, makes it hard to collect.




They sold them through Meltdown Comics online store during their Yawning Portal live stream. They sold them through the store for a week or two i believe.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 4, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> They sold them through Meltdown Comics online store during their Yawning Portal live stream. They sold them through the store for a week or two i believe.




I assume you mean the Storm King's Thunder event from last year, which was held at Meltdown comics. 

I imagine they brought dice and mugs there to give away, like they did at the current event, and then allowed Meltdown to sell the leftovers.


----------



## EthanSental (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm loving the timing of this too as I was already working a plot thread that sent to group I dm for south to Chult after the current thread ends.   The minis and all like the scene room hit the mark.

side note - so Acererak is to be more powerful than Larloch it seems?


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I assume you mean the Storm King's Thunder event from last year, which was held at Meltdown comics.
> 
> I imagine they brought dice and mugs there to give away, like they did at the current event, and then allowed Meltdown to sell the leftovers.




You may assume what you want, but you are wrong. They held a live stream event at Meltdown after Tales from the Yawning Portal was released, and they sold the items online during the stream. I watched the entire thing and ordered the dice and mug during the event.

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/meltdown


----------



## Jester David (Jun 4, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> You may assume what you want, but you are wrong. They held a live stream event at Meltdown after Tales from the Yawning Portal was released, and they sold the items online during the stream. I watched the entire thing and ordered the dice and mug during the event.
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/news/meltdown



Your advaserial tone is entirely unneeded


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

View attachment 84843

So something I found out: the Mummified Yuan Ti we have seen on some of the promo art is actually Ras Nsi. 

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ras_Nsi


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Your advaserial tone is entirely unneeded




My tone is not adversarial. I am simply correcting you and providing a source.


----------



## Prakriti (Jun 4, 2017)

Can someone on Twitter ask Chris Perkins if Artus Cimber and the Ring of Winter are still scheduled for a 2017 appearance?


----------



## Mistwell (Jun 4, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> View attachment 84843
> 
> So something I found out: the Mummified Yuan Ti we have seen on some of the promo art is actually Ras Nsi.
> 
> http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ras_Nsi




I love that!


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 4, 2017)

Also Ras being alive implies Mezro is still in existence. Since it was said the barae would crumble to dust if the city were ever destroyed.


----------



## Shardstone (Jun 4, 2017)

He's clearly undead, so.


----------



## StarFyre (Jun 4, 2017)

Did you happen to get screenshots of the new minis?  I can't find any images from the stream 



SigmaOne said:


> No, this was just a selection of the set of minis coming out by GF9.  They showed others, but I didn't catch them.


----------



## Rellott (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm starting to see some possible plot points/adventure locations if this is the case. Chosen of Ubtao (the deceiver, whose symbol is the maze) had to survive an ordeal within the temple that was never specified. I bet it was some sort of maze dungeon. Ras Nsi was exiled there and maybe still is stuck there somehow or attached to it. He used undead and undead dinosaurs as slaves. I bet he's a sub-boss in a portion of the adventure when we have to explore the ruined temple of Ubtao.


----------



## Charles Rampant (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Your advaserial tone is entirely unneeded





A funny comment, coming from the person intently and aggressively demanding fine details over a mug.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 4, 2017)

Charles Rampant said:


> A funny comment, coming from the person intently and aggressively demanding fine details over a mug.




Because I want to know where to get them next time! I needs my mug and dice, man. I need to be ready.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 4, 2017)

SigmaOne said:


> No, this was just a selection of the set of minis coming out by GF9.  They showed others, but I didn't catch them.



About when did they talk to GF9? I missed that interview.


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> About when did they talk to GF9? I missed that interview.




I don't know the exact time yesterday, but here is the video.


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

StarFyre said:


> Did you happen to get screenshots of the new minis?  I can't find any images from the stream




I didn't manage to get shots during the stream, but now that the video is up (see my previous post), here are some shots. They did not have clips of the t-rex or velociraptors, but they discuss them in the video.
View attachment 84844
(In the video, you can see  how the goblin minis stack to form a totem pole  kind of structure.)

View attachment 84845

View attachment 84846


----------



## Tiles (Jun 4, 2017)

If you correct Jester you are an adversary? Is this how the forums work?


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

Some more screen shots.

View attachment 84847

View attachment 84848

View attachment 84849

View attachment 84850

View attachment 84851

View attachment 84852


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 4, 2017)

murquhart72 said:


> Of course, my answer was an analogy and the issue with implications are they are subjective. Fact is, if you aren't stating a particular setting, WotC (and by extension, any reasonable person playing 5E) can safely assume you're in the Forgotten Realms/Sword Coast.




I have a feeling that, while we will likely probably stay in the Realms for the majority of the APs, we're going to start veering away from the Sword Coast more and more, like we are in this adventure. There are a lot of unique and different regions in the setting (like Chult) that will break up the "typical D&D fantasy" that the Sword Coast brings us. People may complain that the Forgotten Realms is a "kitchen sink" setting, but that's more a strength when it comes to creating adventures in unique locations...


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 4, 2017)

Erdric Dragin said:


> I'm confused.
> 
> I thought the Forgotten Realms was "restored" almost back to the way it was?
> 
> ...




It's back to being a peninsula again; it being a peninsula, as well as the existence of Thindol and Samarach, are all mentioned on page 10 of SCAG.. If someone stated otherwise, they're not up-to-date with the changes. I'm curious, who exactly mentioned this?

EDIT: Oh, it's all in the big post on the first page of the thread.
 [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION], you may want to change all the references to Chult as an "island" to it being a peninsula in your big post at the start...


----------



## Jester David (Jun 4, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> It's back to being a peninsula again; it being a peninsula, as well as the existence of Thindol and Samarach, are all mentioned on page 10 of SCAG.. If someone stated otherwise, they're not up-to-date with the changes. I'm curious, who exactly mentioned this?
> 
> EDIT: Oh, it's all in the big post on the first page of the thread.
> [MENTION=37579]Jester David[/MENTION], you may want to change all the references to Chult as an "island" to it being a peninsula in your big post at the start...



The term "island" was repeatedly mentioned in the stream. SCAG could be misleading or they could be misspeaking on the camera. Or they changed their mind. We'll find out...


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The term "island" was repeatedly mentioned in the stream. SCAG could be misleading or they could be misspeaking on the camera. Or they changed their mind. We'll find out...




Weird, given the information in SCAG, especially the fact that Thindol and Samarach are specifically mentioned, as they were the regions blown up to turn Chult into an island in 4e. There's also the fact that they are attempting to move the setting back to its old, pre-4e geography as well. 

I'm guessing that it's simply just an oversight by the people who mentioned it - either they are still in a 4e geographical mindset, or simply just don't know it was a peninsula (as did a lot of people when the old 1e Gray Box came out; when the first maps that later showed it connected to the main continent came out, I knew several people who were surprised)


----------



## StarFyre (Jun 4, 2017)

Hello everyone,

To clarify, since the original post has been updated with images etc. Regarding the miniatures that sigmaone got the images for:

- acerak lich/demilich & ogre mage the gf9 guy mentioned already exist. They came out a couple years ago. Not sure if they are still available since the gf9 sets are all limited runs (1500 -2500 or so)
- the frost giant shown with the axe seems to be a combat posed version of the frost giant released last september
- they will not be doing the undead trex vomiting zombies; in the video, he says they WOULD HAVE LIKED to do it but its not possible for them, or something to that effect (i imagine they dont have the resin casting facilities as maybe what Forgeworld has, but can't really understand why it would be a problem --- but anyways, thats what he said in the stream)
- i hope we ge tsome large resin dinosaurs; undead trex without the zombies, or an abyssal trex + other dinos, etc

- can someone update the first post regarding the ogre mage and acerak minis?

regards,

Sanjay




SigmaOne said:


> Some more screen shots.
> 
> View attachment 84847
> 
> ...


----------



## SigmaOne (Jun 4, 2017)

StarFyre said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> - they will not be doing the undead trex vomiting zombies; in the video, he says they WOULD HAVE LIKED to do it but its not possible for them, or something to that effect (i imagine they dont have the resin casting facilities as maybe what Forgeworld has, but can't really understand why it would be a problem --- but anyways, thats what he said in the stream)




My apologies for getting that wrong; obviously I wasn't paying close enough attention to the interview. I'll correct my original post.


----------



## 76512390ag12 (Jun 4, 2017)

Love it! Brilliant. Easily portable! Zombies and Dinosaurs, Dwarfs in Jungles, liches! Yuan-ti! Just the right gap since the last one. Can't wait

Sent from my SM-G901F using Tapatalk


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## EthanSental (Jun 4, 2017)

I have the gf9 Acererak mini set from a couple years ago but I guess I'll be pickin up the special edition board game for the painted Acererak mini it will have as well.


----------



## Henry (Jun 4, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The term "island" was repeatedly mentioned in the stream. SCAG could be misleading or they could be misspeaking on the camera. Or they changed their mind. We'll find out...




It would be really funny if Chult (in the AP) was an island because nobody checked the previous refence in the SCAG... 

They're pretty good about that kind of stuff, though, so I'm sure it will get clarified in the next couple of months.

Heck, I'm just glad we're not on or under the Sword Coast North any more! Let's hear it for a genuine hardcore AP!


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 5, 2017)

Henry said:


> It would be really funny if Chult (in the AP) was an island because nobody checked the previous refence in the SCAG...
> 
> They're pretty good about that kind of stuff, though, so I'm sure it will get clarified in the next couple of months.
> 
> Heck, I'm just glad we're not on or under the Sword Coast North any more! Let's hear it for a genuine hardcore AP!




Same here - I think they may dial back a bit on the focus on the Sword Coast North in future APs because (a) it's already been menaced multiple times and repeating that continuously would really cause suspension of disbelief issues and (b) there's a lot more variety in the setting (and outside the setting!) to show off and detail.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Jun 5, 2017)

Irennan said:


> Here's what Ed himself said on the matter. I directly asked him when having this very discussion in another thread, and this is his answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So by 1979 he'd been "writing about it for 20 years or so", even though he was born in 1959.



SigmaOne said:


> (In the video, you can see  how the goblin minis stack to form a totem pole  kind of structure.)





Aren't stackable goblins a thing from Diablo 3?


----------



## Lorathorn (Jun 5, 2017)

I imagine that the mystic and artificer will NOT be in the Xanathar Guide, as they are still technically being refined.


----------



## Ilbranteloth (Jun 5, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> So by 1979 he'd been "writing about it for 20 years or so", even though he was born in 1959.




Actually, I think he was referring to the contract that they wrote when TSR bought the rights in 1987. If my recollection is correct, Ed said his first Realms story (about Mirt) was written c1969. So when they bought the rights in 1987 it had been "about 20 years or so." He had been publishing articles in Dragon magazine by that time for "about 10 years or so."


----------



## Jester David (Jun 5, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> So by 1979 he'd been "writing about it for 20 years or so", even though he was born in 1959.



Well... 10 years or so. He started writing for the Realms in 1967. And converted it to D&D in '75.



dropbear8mybaby said:


> Aren't stackable goblins a thing from Diablo 3?



I recall them from Diablo 2.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Jun 5, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Well... 10 years or so. He started writing for the Realms in 1967. And converted it to D&D in '75.




So he started "writing for the Realms" when he was 8 years old?

I never knew Ed was a child prodigy.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 5, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> So he started "writing for the Realms" when he was 8 years old?
> 
> I never knew Ed was a child prodigy.



Yes he did start telling Realms stories when he was eight.
No, that doesn't make him a prodigy. Just a storyteller / creative. There are published authors as young as 12.


----------



## jgsugden (Jun 5, 2017)

Lorathorn said:


> I imagine that the mystic and artificer will NOT be in the Xanathar Guide, as they are still technically being refined.



Ghey've confirmed on Twitter that those classes will be in a future book or product, but will not be in this year's releases.


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Jun 5, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Yes he did start telling Realms stories when he was eight.
> No, that doesn't make him a prodigy. Just a storyteller / creative. There are published authors as young as 12.




I have a simpler explanation that hews closer to the truth based on the evidence.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 5, 2017)

dropbear8mybaby said:


> I have a simpler explanation that hews closer to the truth based on the evidence.




Which is?
That it sprang fully formed from his head in 1979 when, at age 20, he published his first article in Dragon?


----------



## darjr (Jun 5, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Well... 10 years or so. He started writing for the Realms in 1967. And converted it to D&D in '75.
> 
> 
> I recall them from Diablo 2.




But weren't they in D&D before that?


----------



## Jester David (Jun 5, 2017)

darjr said:


> But weren't they in D&D before that?




Possibly.
They might be drawing from similar myth/ imagery. The idea of a totem that breaks apart into smaller dudes could come to people independently


----------



## SkidAce (Jun 5, 2017)

I was born in 63.  After reading HP Lovecraft at 10, I wrote some of my own stories.

I have used those ideas in my DnD campaign years later, after being introduced to the game.

So its possible.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 5, 2017)

Product page is up and live:

http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/tomb-annihilation

Level range for it is 1-11. No page count listed yet.

And the first paragraph makes this adventure sound even more intriguing:

"The talk of the streets and taverns has all been about the so-called death curse: a wasting disease afflicting everyone who’s ever been raised from the dead. Victims grow thinner and weaker each day, slowly but steadily sliding toward the death they once denied."

Have Elminster or Drizz't ever been raised from the dead?   lol


----------



## dropbear8mybaby (Jun 5, 2017)

SkidAce said:


> I was born in 63.  After reading HP Lovecraft at 10, I wrote some of my own stories.
> 
> I have used those ideas in my DnD campaign years later, after being introduced to the game.
> 
> So its possible.




Well if that's the metric we're using, I started writing my setting when I was 3.


----------



## pukunui (Jun 5, 2017)

Jester David said:


> The term "island" was repeatedly mentioned in the stream. SCAG could be misleading or they could be misspeaking on the camera. Or they changed their mind. We'll find out...



I asked Mearls on Twitter. He says it's a peninsula.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 5, 2017)

pukunui said:


> I asked Mearls on Twitter. He says it's a peninsula.




The official product page linked in the post right above yours also refers to Chult as a peninsula, so if it says that on the WotC page, I believe the question to be definitively answered.

And I agree with [MENTION=6818233]Enevhar Aldarion[/MENTION] that the official blurb definitely is an intriguing hook for a campaign...


----------



## Mirtek (Jun 5, 2017)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Have Elminster or Drizz't ever been raised from the dead?   lol



 Not Drizzt and I don't think Elminster either. 

I also understood that the curse only affects those raised after Accerak cast it, not everybody no matter how long before the curse  it has been.


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 5, 2017)

Henry said:


> .
> 
> Heck, I'm just glad we're not on or under the Sword Coast North any more! Let's hear it for a genuine hardcore AP!



Assuming "hardcore" means "difficult", why would you think the campaign module would get any harder just because it's set outside of the Sword Coast? 


Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 5, 2017)

jgsugden said:


> Ghey've confirmed on Twitter that those classes will be in a future book or product, but will not be in this year's releases.



Sauce please

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app


----------



## Henry (Jun 5, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Assuming "hardcore" means "difficult", why would you think the campaign module would get any harder just because it's set outside of the Sword Coast?




Sorry if that was unclear - two separate thoughts.

A) the first three APs were set west of Cormyr and north of Amn ; subsequent ones, while not strictly "sword coast" had plenty of ties to it. This one sounds like it's at least primarily focused outside the region.

B) I've had plenty of complaints before over the lethality level of previous APs. I'm playing in PotA now, and, though I'm having fun, thanks to the DM, I still haven't felt "threatened" the way I have with pretty much every Paizo Adventure ever. You can chalk some of that up to system, but I chalk some of it up to adventure structure - most of the encounters have felt pretty low-key, and most of the encounters have only had four or five fors and very few spellcasters or creatures with special abilities. Having read through OotA, it felt similar. Past the opening chapter, and the obvious "you should run from this now" plot elements, none of the threats felt "edge of your seat." Even the Tomb of Horrors from Yawning Portal felt a bit of a let-down.

(I have to be honest though, that's my quirk -- I've not been satisfied with anyone's version since Bruce Cordell's Return version in the 90s.)

It might be my perception, but the homebrew stuff I've done I've had better success with, releasing threats in waves, or including more smaller monsters and magic-using threats to complicate the battlefield.


----------



## vpuigdoller (Jun 5, 2017)

Woah real Mezro is in a demi plane and the ruins are a decoy???  Nice this gets better and better!!!


----------



## Staffan (Jun 5, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> Not Drizzt and I don't think Elminster either.
> 
> I also understood that the curse only affects those raised after Accerak cast it, not everybody no matter how long before the curse  it has been.




At least from the stream, it appeared that everyone (or at least everyone in a particular region) who had been raised at any point started feeling effects that would eventually re-kill them, and that going forward raising wouldn't work.


----------



## ScaleyBob (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm seriously tempted by this Adventure Path, with it's jungles, dinosaurs and other weirdness. Awesome! Not bothered by the fact it's in the Realms either, as somewhere like Chult is suitably isolated that it'd be easy to slip into any campaign without much problem. I haven't bought any of the 5E Adventures yet, but this one has me intrigued. 

Truth be told, they had me at Undead Dinosaurs. View attachment 84877

All it needs now is a self destructing Warforged Assassin.


----------



## gyor (Jun 5, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Sauce please
> 
> Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app




 Tomato sauce or Alfredo sauce?


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 5, 2017)

Staffan said:


> At least from the stream, it appeared that everyone (or at least everyone in a particular region) who had been raised at any point started feeling effects that would eventually re-kill them, and that going forward raising wouldn't work.



Now if that's an optional rule that actually affects player characters (and not just NPCs ie color background stuff) talk about "hardcore"


----------



## CapnZapp (Jun 5, 2017)

Jester David said:


> Which is?
> That it sprang fully formed from his head in 1979 when, at age 20, he published his first article in Dragon?



I'm not dropbear, but I believe he's suggesting Ed is self-aggrandizing. Or in blunter terms, that he is full of it. That's just a guess, though.


----------



## gyor (Jun 5, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Same here - I think they may dial back a bit on the focus on the Sword Coast North in future APs because (a) it's already been menaced multiple times and repeating that continuously would really cause suspension of disbelief issues and (b) there's a lot more variety in the setting (and outside the setting!) to show off and detail.




 I hope your right.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 5, 2017)

FWIW, I'm almost certainly going to buy this. The only problems are logistical on my side: I'm still in the early stages of running Princes of the Apocalypse, and I should probably be receiving the new edition of TORG at around the same time as this is published.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 5, 2017)

So I have a theory on how this adventure shakes down. I do not believe Acererak is the main villain. I believe he is present but primarily as a fake out.
I think the primary antagonist of ToA is actually Ras Nsi, the Yuan-Ti with the flaming sword. He is an established Chult character and know for his ability to raise undead.

I expect Acererak has a similar role to Tomb of Horrors. Mostly Passive.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 5, 2017)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Product page is up and live:
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/tomb-annihilation
> 
> ...



I believe Elminster has died a couple times. Drizz't wasn't ever raised to my knowledge, but most of his friends have.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 5, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> I'm not dropbear, but I believe he's suggesting Ed is self-aggrandizing. Or in blunter terms, that he is full of it. That's just a guess, though.



I get not liking the Realms. It's not everyone's cup of tea (and it's popular, there's a lot of it, and people use it poorly). But hating on Ed because he created it is somewhat petty. He didn't make Drizz't clones or have your DM save your party with Elminster, or publish dozens of novels and sourcebooks in a single year. 

Yeah, someone can not like his writing. But don't call him a liar because you don't like his prose. 
While I can't stand the man's books, he seems very nice and approachable. A genuinely decent guy... albeit pervy. (My wife and him would get alone fine: she has an equally dirty mind.)


----------



## jgsugden (Jun 5, 2017)

CapnZapp said:


> Sauce please
> 
> Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app




http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/unearthed-arcana-update


----------



## Pauper (Jun 5, 2017)

darjr said:


> I wonder what the resurection issue is going to play out in AL. Considering I run a TON of it.




Given how badly the 'lock-in' aspect of Barovia went over in AL, and how any possible implementation of 'perma-death' is loudly decried among more vocal AL folks, I suspect that AL adventurers will either be curiously immune to the resurrection issue in Tomb of Annihilation, or the effect will only apply on such an unlikely series of die rolls that most players won't ever have to deal with the possibility.

I could be proven wrong -- it would be a very Gygaxian thing to come up with a mechanic to effectively drive high-tier characters out of the campaign to get players started up with low tier 'toons' again -- but I won't be holding my breath.

--
Pauper


----------



## jgsugden (Jun 5, 2017)

Pauper said:


> Given how badly the 'lock-in' aspect of Barovia went over in AL, and how any possible implementation of 'perma-death' is loudly decried among more vocal AL folks, I suspect that AL adventurers will either be curiously immune to the resurrection issue in Tomb of Annihilation, or the effect will only apply on such an unlikely series of die rolls that most players won't ever have to deal with the possibility...



I imagine that they've carefully considered how the resurrection curse will impact PCs in this entire storyline.  However, I doubt they have any hope of pleasing everyone.    Nor will they try to please everyone - they'll do what they think is best for a large part of the group and accept that there will be complaints from a vocal group - just like with everything else.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 5, 2017)

Henry said:


> (I have to be honest though, that's my quirk -- I've not been satisfied with anyone's version since Bruce Cordell's Return version in the 90s.)




That hurts, Henry. That's hurtful.


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 5, 2017)

I don't know why people are doubting Ed's claim. Lots of kids write stories. And he never claimed the ones he wrote at eight were any good, merely that they were the first in the setting he continued to develop.

I mean, the games I ran at 10, and the stories I wrote starting at around 12, all sucked. But there were still a few details in them that I've continued to use in some of my settings--both novel and game--even now.


----------



## Elderbrain (Jun 5, 2017)

Glad to see that Xanathar's Guide to Everything is an actual RPG book, not just another Dungeonology (not that there's anything wrong with that, per see), and that it will include new rules expansion material. (Well, new as in "in hardcover"!). Looking forward to the new books. Re: Elminster and other raised NPCs, perhaps the death curse is local, only affecting the people of the Chult region?


----------



## Staffan (Jun 6, 2017)

Mouseferatu said:


> I don't know why people are doubting Ed's claim. Lots of kids write stories. And he never claimed the ones he wrote at eight were any good, merely that they were the first in the setting he continued to develop.




This, "One comes, unheralded, to Zirta" is apparently a story he wrote in 1967 (based on an earlier story he wrote in 1965).

I mean, it's not great literature by any means, but the dude was 8.


----------



## JRedmond (Jun 6, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> So I have a theory on how this adventure shakes down. I do not believe Acererak is the main villain. I believe he is present but primarily as a fake out.
> I think the primary antagonist of ToA is actually Ras Nsi, the Yuan-Ti with the flaming sword. He is an established Chult character and know for his ability to raise undead.
> 
> I expect Acererak has a similar role to Tomb of Horrors. Mostly Passive.




I am in agreement on this one.  The guy from Gale Force 9 mentioned in passing the main adversary was Ras Nsi which I think was probably a slip up.


----------



## Chaosmancer (Jun 6, 2017)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Product page is up and live:
> 
> http://dnd.wizards.com/products/tabletop-games/rpg-products/tomb-annihilation
> 
> *Level range for it is 1-11.* No page count listed yet.





This, this bothers me. 

I have a vast respect for a well-prepared and clever lich. I've often told my players that if I ever wanted to TPK a party legitimately, even at level 20, that is what I'd pit them against. 

Acerak, from what I know, is one of the most famous and powerful liches in the game. And we're supposed to beat him at level 11? Even the MM lists him as a CR 23 within his lair. 

So, either the players are supposed to get some ridiculous magical gear, or weaken him somehow so that they can actually fight him... which really is a drag. 

Why not make it a LV 5-15 or even (gasp) go all the way up to level 20?

This is an epic adventure just from descriptions, and I might still try and get a copy to steal things from, but ending at level 11 just feels like you're going to break his stuff while he's away and everything will get sucked into a dimensional portal, cause a level 11 party is not going toe-to-toe with a Lich and having any realistic chance at victory.


----------



## Jester David (Jun 6, 2017)

Pauper said:


> Given how badly the 'lock-in' aspect of Barovia went over in AL, and how any possible implementation of 'perma-death' is loudly decried among more vocal AL folks, I suspect that AL adventurers will either be curiously immune to the resurrection issue in Tomb of Annihilation, or the effect will only apply on such an unlikely series of die rolls that most players won't ever have to deal with the possibility.
> 
> I could be proven wrong -- it would be a very Gygaxian thing to come up with a mechanic to effectively drive high-tier characters out of the campaign to get players started up with low tier 'toons' again -- but I won't be holding my breath.
> 
> ...



Maybe it will be season-limited permadeath. You can resurrect, but only after the season when the problem is "solved".


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## SkidAce (Jun 6, 2017)

Chaosmancer said:


> This, this bothers me.
> 
> I have a vast respect for a well-prepared and clever lich. I've often told my players that if I ever wanted to TPK a party legitimately, even at level 20, that is what I'd pit them against.
> 
> ...




I share these concerns.


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## Azzy (Jun 6, 2017)

Chaosmancer said:


> This, this bothers me.
> 
> I have a vast respect for a well-prepared and clever lich. I've often told my players that if I ever wanted to TPK a party legitimately, even at level 20, that is what I'd pit them against.
> 
> ...




I seriously doubt that players will actually face Acererak. More likely, they'll just be thwarting his nefarious scheme and putting the blade to his underlings.


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## Chaosmancer (Jun 6, 2017)

Azzy said:


> I seriously doubt that players will actually face Acererak. More likely, they'll just be thwarting his nefarious scheme and putting the blade to his underlings.




Exactly, and yet there will be mini's of Acerak, he's featured prominently on the cover, players will be told it is his scheme they are thwarting, they will go to his stronghold...

And either

1) they will never see him in person making all of that build up more than a little disappointing

2) he will be seriously gimped by whatever they do earlier in the adventure


I find neither option appealing


----------



## werecorpse (Jun 6, 2017)

Yes of course! Well spotted Chaosmancer.

The party will face Mini Acereraks.

: )

Edit: actually in he original ToH there was a false Acererak so this Lich has form for using fake news undead.


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## Jester David (Jun 6, 2017)

Liches are high Challenge. But like a lot of _Monster Manual_ foes, they're low in terms of hp and damage for their CR. Liches are glass canons. PCs can easily drop one in terms of DPR at level 10 or 11.


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 6, 2017)

I'd love for the intro to the adventure to make no mention of Acererak's past as a demi-lich. And then, at the end, for the PCs to damage his phylactery or otherwise make it impossible for him to feed it souls, thus forcing him to _become_ a demi-lich and revealing that ToA is actually a stealth prequel to Tomb of Horrors.


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## werecorpse (Jun 6, 2017)

Mouseferatu said:


> I'd love for the intro to the adventure to make no mention of Acererak's past as a demi-lich. And then, at the end, for the PCs to damage his phylactery or otherwise make it impossible for him to feed it souls, thus forcing him to _become_ a demi-lich and revealing that ToA is actually a stealth prequel to Tomb of Horrors.




At the end of the adventure he could maybe use planar & time travel to limp away and escape the PC's and send his Demi-lich ToH back to 1978 greyhawk.


----------



## briggart (Jun 6, 2017)

Perkins discussed a little bit the role of Acererak in Tomb of Annihilation in his Dungeon Life interview.


Basically he said that, like in the original ToH, the characters are not going up against Acererak directly, rather against something he created, the new (?) tomb. He discussed a bit how to actually give a dungeon its own 'personality' and flavor, and how to get the PCs feel that their going up against the tomb itself. He added that if the PCs manage to annoy Acererak too much, he will take a more direct interest in them, but it seems for the most part he's going to sit in the background.

Don't know, but I king of get the feeling that this is not supposed to be the last we see of Acererak.


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## Prakriti (Jun 6, 2017)

_Storm King's Thunder_ suffered greatly from lacking a central villain -- that and the fact that the Storm King himself isn't mentioned until halfway through the adventure. I hope they don't make that mistake again. If an adventure is called _Tomb of Annihilation_ and Acererak is on the cover, then the tomb and Acererak need to be present from the first or second session. That's what makes _Curse of Strahd_ so successful: the villain is ever-present, and Castle Ravenloft is looming over everything. From the first or second session, the players know exactly what they need to do, but not how to do it.

Based on the interviews I've seen with Chris Perkins, I think other posters might be right that Acererak doesn't have a strong presence in _Tomb of Annihilation_. His machinations might set the plot in motion (with the death curse), but I won't be surprised if he is just one of many threats, or if the curse he sets in motion becomes a greater menace than he is himself. Either way, Chris seems to downplay Acererak's role in the adventure. Speaking of _Tomb of Horrors_, he emphasized that it was the dungeon itself that was the greatest menace, not Acererak himself. It sounds like the same will hold true for _Annihilation_. It's the environment (and, presumably, the Soulmonger, whatever that turns out to be) that poses the greatest threat.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Jun 6, 2017)

Mirtek said:


> It absolutely does. It's simply not what they say that matters, but what they do
> Which doesn'T change what is actually happening.
> 
> Yes, officially the setting is the multiverse. Yes, there have been reference to it everywhere. But that's all there is. WotC has in practice done 87% FR, 13% Ravenloft and that's it. If we're generous we could count the smatterings of mentionings of other settings as another 1%, then we're at 86% FR, 13% RL, 1% others
> ...




And I ask, how does that affect the default? Even if nothing but the 3 core books made any reference to anything outside of Faerun, it still would not meet the definition of default unless it, you know, met the definition of default. I didn't give the definition, I'm just agreeing with it.

The PHB provides examples of character creation that are from campaign settings other than the multiverse. If someone only had only read and been exposed to the core game books, and you told them that the Forgotten Realms were the default setting, they would ask how in the world you got that, since the books quite clearly disagree. 



murquhart72 said:


> Fact is, if you aren't stating a particular setting, WotC (and by extension, any reasonable person playing 5E) can safely assume you're in the Forgotten Realms/Sword Coast.




If you aren't stating a particular setting in what context? A group of new D&D players who just picked up the PHB, DMG, and MM and are starting a game? Because that is the default of D&D.



> Forgotten Realms, whether we like it or not, IS the default D&D setting when it comes to WotC published products. It's where they game, it's where every adventure they publish at least starts, it is the focus of every single example used (even when the "multiverse" is mentioned).




It's the setting they publish most supplements in, so I suppose you could say it's the default supplement setting. But that doesn't make it the default D&D setting. And as far as the designers at WotC...you'd probably be surprised what they use for their home games.

It's also factually incorrect to say that it is the focus of every example used. Here is what is in the books:
"Orb of Dragonkind, wondrous item, artifact (requires attunement): Ages past, on the world of Krynn..." -DMG p.225

It goes on to fill over a columns worth of text on a Dragonlance item with no mention of the Forgotten Realms anywhere. I just picked that one because its the first that came to mind. And of course there is Tika and Artemis in the Backgrounds chapter in the PHB, where Tika (Dragonlance) gets just as much focus as Artemis (Forgotten Realms).



> The sky is blue, water is wet, FR is D&D's current default setting, d10 is not a polyhedron, liquids and cats change shape to fill their containers... These are things only the mentally ill argue against.
> I ain't even mad that that is the case, I just hate seeing the company constantly denying something any sane person can see with their own eyes.
> I'm sorry, but there's no way you can convince me otherwise but if you feel like beating the corpse of this horse than by all means, have your last word and enjoy




I've made a factual argument, using an agreed upon definition of the term default. I've provide the actual text in question. And what I'm seeing in response are a shifting the goalpost fallacy.

Since we all seem to be reasonable people, perhaps we are arguing from a different set of assumptions.

Would you disagree that the core rulebooks set the D&D defaults?


----------



## Jhaelen (Jun 6, 2017)

I think it's missing robots. At the very least they should have included laser-mounted cyber-dinosaurs.

Edit: I like the artwork, though.


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## pming (Jun 6, 2017)

Hiya.

Ugh! 

So, it's Acererak...but not really...and the tomb of horrors...but not really...set on the isle of dread...but not really...with an epic plot to unleash undeath upon the world...but not really...where the PC's will have to take him out...but not really...or the world is doooooomed! (but not really) Got it.



Like _EVERYTHING PUT OUT FOR 5e AFTER THE PHB/MM/DMG_, I'll be passing. Wake me when WotC puts out something _new_ that doesn't involve any name-dropping or "re-imagining" of something of note from AD&D/BECMI's past.

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## GarrettKP (Jun 6, 2017)

pming said:


> Hiya.
> 
> Ugh!
> 
> ...




No where did WotC claim this adventure included the Tomb of Horrors, or the Isle of Dread, or that the "epic plot" was to unleash undeath upon the world. Hell they never even said the PCs have to "take him out" or the world would be doomed. Everything you mentioned was your or someone else's unfounded assumptions. 

The only thing they promised was Acererak was behind the bad stuff and you would be fighting Zombies and Dinosaurs and Zombie Dinosaurs and exploring the jungle. And so far it seems all of that will be the case.


----------



## JeffB (Jun 6, 2017)

Jhaelen said:


> I think it's missing robots.




That will be for the next one...

Expedition to the Cloud Peaks..

Or Storm Horns


or wherever they jam S3 into The Forgotten Realms, and however they re-fluff it up.


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## gyor (Jun 6, 2017)

Jhaelen said:


> I think it's missing robots. At the very least they should have included laser-mounted cyber-dinosaurs.
> 
> Edit: I like the artwork, though.




 star Trek Online has Cyber Dinosaurs,  V.  Rexes with freaking lazer beams,  and missiles.


----------



## pming (Jun 6, 2017)

Hiya!



GarrettKP said:


> No where did WotC claim this adventure included the Tomb of Horrors, or the Isle of Dread, or that the "epic plot" was to unleash undeath upon the world. Hell they never even said the PCs have to "take him out" or the world would be doomed. Everything you mentioned was your or someone else's unfounded assumptions.




You know what? You are absolutely correct. I am making assumptions, and I (as well as others) could be waaaaay off the mark. I hope I am! Really, I do!



> The only thing they promised was Acererak was behind the bad stuff and you would be fighting Zombies and Dinosaurs and Zombie Dinosaurs and exploring the jungle. And so far it seems all of that will be the case.




Then why call it "Tome of Annihilation" and put the most iconic image from the Tomb of Horrors as the first thing in your face for the "live stream"? Why use a world-specific (Greyhawk) name (Acererak) linked with such an iconic dungeon (Tomb of Horrors) for an adve...er..."group-choose-your-own-adventure"...that is not going to be set on said world, nor in the dungeon, nor with the actual bad guy whose namesake was in it?

 "_An ancient evil, long thought contained, has managed to retrieve an artifact from some other world. With this artifact's power growing every week, the dead are rising from their grave on their own! Resurrection magic is no longer working, and who knows how long it will be before even healing magic is useless? Can your band of brave adventurers discover who, or what, is behind this? Can your heroes brave the fetid swamps, steaming jungles, and cannibal-haunted jungles to stop it in time?_"  <-- THAT would have been _infinitely_ better and I just pulled that out of my donkey.

But, alas, I am obviously not the target audience of WotC anymore. I was when they were putting out the PHB, DMG and MM, but not anymore. Too bad. I was really looking forward to spending cash on D&D stuff again.


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## GarrettKP (Jun 6, 2017)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Again more assumptions. Acererak will be in the adventure. Chris Perkins confirmed this. That does not mean they expect you to fight him (hell you didn't even fight him in the Tomb of Horrors). In an interview with Dungeon Life, Perkins confirmed not only that Acererak will be in the book, but that he isn't the main villain. Instead a certain "thing" he is creating is the villain. And he said while navigating the Tomb of Annihilation you will see things from all the worlds Acererak has traversed. 

So I really do not see the issue here. Acererak is a plane hopper that is doing bad stuff, go stop him. That is the basic idea here.


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## DM Howard (Jun 6, 2017)

I'm interested in the board games.  I might have been interested in the Dungeon Set as well, but WizKids can't just sell that, they have to make it an incentive for their terrible (personal opinion) randomized miniatures model.  Oh well.


----------



## murquhart72 (Jun 6, 2017)

JeffB said:


> That will be for the next one...
> 
> Expedition to the Cloud Peaks..
> 
> ...




HA! WotC BUUURRRNNN!!!


----------



## JeffB (Jun 6, 2017)

murquhart72 said:


> HA! WotC BUUURRRNNN!!!




Do your Mommy and Daddy know you are using their computer?


----------



## nicolas.carrillos (Jun 6, 2017)

Chris Perkins just replied this to me on Twitter: "Yes, there is guidance for dropping #TombofAnnihilation into various D&amp;D worlds, including Eberron, Greyhawk, and Mystara. #WOTCstaff" Great news! Eberron, Xen'drik here I go


----------



## designbot (Jun 6, 2017)

Edit: Never mind, got beaten to the punch.


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## Demetrios1453 (Jun 7, 2017)

nicolas.carrillos said:


> Chris Perkins just replied this to me on Twitter: "Yes, there is guidance for dropping #TombofAnnihilation into various D&D worlds, including Eberron, Greyhawk, and Mystara. #WOTCstaff" Great news! Eberron, Xen'drik here I go




I was assuming this would be the case, and guessed upthread that it would be Amedio Jungle or Hepmonaland for Greyhawk and Xen'drik for Eberron. Any ideas for where it might go in Mystara? And no Dragonlance suggestions (I would say among the Dragon Isles to the north of Ansalon), or was that just an accidental omission on Chris' part?


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## JeffB (Jun 7, 2017)

Hollow World


----------



## Davelozzi (Jun 7, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> I was assuming this would be the case, and guessed upthread that it would be Amedio Jungle or Hepmonaland for Greyhawk and Xen'drik for Eberron. Any ideas for where it might go in Mystara?




It's been forever since I looked hard at Mystara, but I want to say that the Isle of Dread was part of a larger archipelago, and that there was another continent a bit beyond to the south that might fit the bill.


----------



## Davelozzi (Jun 7, 2017)

Yep, it's the Thanegioth Archipelago that includes the Isle of Dread, and beyond is The Jungle Coast on the northern shores of the continent of Davania.  The latter strikes me as the best Chult analogue.


Sent from my iPhone using EN World


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 7, 2017)

nicolas.carrillos said:


> Chris Perkins just replied this to me on Twitter: "Yes, there is guidance for dropping #TombofAnnihilation into various D&D worlds, including Eberron, Greyhawk, and Mystara. #WOTCstaff" Great news! Eberron, Xen'drik here I go




Mystara sounds like a cool option.


----------



## Hussar (Jun 7, 2017)

I find it endlessly interesting to see the difference in reactions between how one company does something and another company that does exactly the same thing.

Paizo ganks the Isle of Dread and stuffs it into Greyhawk and they are applauded for it.  Everyone loves them for it.  WotC does the exact same thing, but puts it into Forgotten Realms instead, and they're uncreative hacks who don't know anything about gaming and only produce boring stuff.

:/


----------



## guachi (Jun 7, 2017)

If it's Mystara, the Isle of Dread is easiest (or some other island in the Thanegioth Archipelago). Though they could put it in Northern Davania or maybe the Serpent Peninsula.


----------



## pming (Jun 7, 2017)

Hiya.



GarrettKP said:


> Again more assumptions. Acererak will be in the adventure. Chris Perkins confirmed this. That does not mean they expect you to fight him (hell you didn't even fight him in the Tomb of Horrors). In an interview with Dungeon Life, Perkins confirmed not only that Acererak will be in the book, but that he isn't the main villain. Instead a certain "thing" he is creating is the villain. And he said while navigating the Tomb of Annihilation you will see things from all the worlds Acererak has traversed.
> 
> So I really do not see the issue here. Acererak is a plane hopper that is doing bad stuff, go stop him. That is the basic idea here.




Except Acererak isn't a plane hopper...he's a dead lich. He's dead. He had his minions build him his "final resting spot" (#33), destroyed them, then pretty much just waited for his lich body to crumble...leaving only his skull. Acereraks soul then went on to the planes and whatnot...but all dead people do that; you don't have to be a lich.  IF his 'final resting spot' is breached (keys), his soul is brought back...in the form of a "demi-lich". But he's still dead and not going to get any better.

So...Acererak isnt' doing "bad stuff" because, again, he's dead. I have no idea what Chris Perkens was smoking when/if he said that...and if he did, then much of my contention stands; WotC is just trying to use an iconic name to sell stuff.

No matter how you slice it, it's still not a thing for me or my group. And me ranting about this annoyance can be chalked up to "Just one of those old coots, rambling on about how much better it was back in ye olden days...".  

^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## Mouseferatu (Jun 7, 2017)

pming said:


> Except Acererak isn't a plane hopper...he's a dead lich. He's dead. He had his minions build him his "final resting spot" (#33), destroyed them, then pretty much just waited for his lich body to crumble...leaving only his skull. Acereraks soul then went on to the planes and whatnot...but all dead people do that; you don't have to be a lich.  IF his 'final resting spot' is breached (keys), his soul is brought back...in the form of a "demi-lich". But he's still dead and not going to get any better.




That may have been true when Tomb of Horrors was first written, but it hasn't been true in a long time. Bruce Cordell's Return to the Tomb of Horrors changed all that, and the 4E Tomb of Horrors (which, yes, full disclosure, I worked on) ran with it.

If you want to complain about things possibly having been changed from the source, you're certainly welcome to, but it's a bit late, and hardly original to ToA.


----------



## Jhaelen (Jun 7, 2017)

Hussar said:


> Paizo ganks the Isle of Dread and stuffs it into Greyhawk and they are applauded for it.  Everyone loves them for it.  WotC does the exact same thing, but puts it into Forgotten Realms instead, and they're uncreative hacks who don't know anything about gaming and only produce boring stuff.



Well, that's quite likely because of the very different status of 'Greyhawk' compared to ' The Forgotten Realms'.

To me it's similar to the difference between 'A Perfect Circle' covering John Lennon's 'Imagine' and 'Justin Bieber' covering the Beatles' 'Let it Be'. 
The former is a great artistic re-interpretation, and the latter is sacrilege


----------



## Hussar (Jun 7, 2017)

Jhaelen said:


> Well, that's quite likely because of the very different status of 'Greyhawk' compared to ' The Forgotten Realms'.
> 
> To me it's similar to the difference between 'A Perfect Circle' covering John Lennon's 'Imagine' and 'Justin Bieber' covering the Beatles' 'Let it Be'.
> The former is a great artistic re-interpretation, and the latter is sacrilege




In other words, it's okay when someone you like does it, but, when someone you don't like does the same thing, it's bad.  

Like I said, this has been going on for years.  No matter what WotC does, they will fold the hundred dollar bill entirely wrong.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 7, 2017)

pming said:


> No matter how you slice it, it's still not a thing for me or my group. And me ranting about this annoyance can be chalked up to "Just one of those old coots, rambling on about how much better it was back in ye olden days...".




And for every "old coot" like you, there is one like me, who is the exact opposite. In my 35 years of gaming, 85-90% of my D&D gaming has been homebrew, with very little use of published worlds. So much so, that I barely know who Acererak even is and I have never played through any version of Tomb of Horrors or Isle of Dread. So these changes and updates mean nothing to me because I never knew the original versions.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 7, 2017)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And for every "old coot" like you, there is one like me, who is the exact opposite. In my 35 years of gaming, 85-90% of my D&D gaming has been homebrew, with very little use of published worlds. So much so, that I barely know who Acererak even is and I have never played through any version of Tomb of Horrors or Isle of Dread. So these changes and updates mean nothing to me because I never knew the original versions.




And I suspect for every "old coot" and every 35 year vet with your mindset I suspect there are dozens of people like me who do not have that amount of experience or the time to create a world, so these modules play a huge role in how we play D&D. 

Whether we started only 10 years ago or this year, the majority of the player base are new players who want the experiences the veteran D&D players have. We want to know what the Tomb of Horrors is like to play through, or how it feels to free Barovia from Strahd, or how gratifying it is escaping from the Underdark. 

And by putting out these modules that have such a legacy for inspiration WotC is scratching that itch, and also putting out something the "old coots" recognize. Even if they do not love the retread, this gives the Veterans and the Newbies some common frame of reference. Most everyone knows who Acererak is, or who Strahd and Tiamat are. 

It may not be what you want for your games, but it scratches the itch for a majority of the player base, and in business you have to cater to a majority, especially when the release cycle is slower than the older days.


----------



## JeffB (Jun 7, 2017)

Hussar said:


> I find it endlessly interesting to see the difference in reactions between how one company does something and another company that does exactly the same thing.
> 
> Paizo ganks the Isle of Dread and stuffs it into Greyhawk and they are applauded for it.  Everyone loves them for it.  WotC does the exact same thing, but puts it into Forgotten Realms instead, and they're uncreative hacks who don't know anything about gaming and only produce boring stuff.
> 
> :/




FWIW, and that's not much.... I hated when Paizo did the IoD AP. Frankly I never cared much for their stewardship of the magazines. I know Erik and I got into a few conversations about my "disapproval" bitd 

There has been a huge amount of re-hashing old stuff, and even as an old crank who loves the originals with all their warts, I hate seeing all these re-makes. It's like Lucas and his Special editions.

Get into the now, and do something new, fresh, and exciting, and stop riding coattails of the forefathers' works..At this point it is no longer flattery.

/cranky grampa


----------



## jimmytheccomic (Jun 7, 2017)

Mouseferatu said:


> That may have been true when Tomb of Horrors was first written, but it hasn't been true in a long time. Bruce Cordell's Return to the Tomb of Horrors changed all that, and the 4E Tomb of Horrors (which, yes, full disclosure, I worked on) ran with it.
> 
> )




Hey, that was good ! I'm probably going to use it in my Tomb of Annihilation game, I may make the "Soul Reaver" or whatever the device is also serve as the material plane battery, then take them through the Feywild and Shadowplane to hit the other batteries.


----------



## Mistwell (Jun 7, 2017)

Hussar said:


> I find it endlessly interesting to see the difference in reactions between how one company does something and another company that does exactly the same thing.
> 
> Paizo ganks the Isle of Dread and stuffs it into Greyhawk and they are applauded for it.  Everyone loves them for it.  WotC does the exact same thing, but puts it into Forgotten Realms instead, and they're uncreative hacks who don't know anything about gaming and only produce boring stuff.
> 
> :/




To be fair, while I quite like parts of the Savage Tides adventure path, the Isle of Dread part of it was not very good in my opinion.  The adventure that comes before it in Sasserine was excellent however. And I seem to recall that was a fairly common perception at the time - that the actual remake part was lacking.  I know when I opted to run it in 5e, starting during the beta test, a lot of people here gave me that advice to skip the Isle of Dread part.

Not that any of that has anything to do with setting.  In fact, for that particular adventure I'd say setting is fairly meaningless.  The whole point is it's away from well travelled paths and civilized lands that the players might be familiar with - that's almost by definition "plop into a back corner of any setting".  There is nothing particularly Mystara or Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms about any of it.


----------



## Irennan (Jun 7, 2017)

Jester David said:


> I get not liking the Realms. It's not everyone's cup of tea (and it's popular, there's a lot of it, and people use it poorly). But hating on Ed because he created it is somewhat petty. He didn't make Drizz't clones or have your DM save your party with Elminster, or publish dozens of novels and sourcebooks in a single year.
> 
> Yeah, someone can not like his writing. But don't call him a liar because you don't like his prose.
> While I can't stand the man's books, he seems very nice and approachable. A genuinely decent guy... albeit pervy. (My wife and him would get alone fine: she has an equally dirty mind.)




Well, he technically made Eilistraee for his game, which some count as Drizzt's clone even tho she's *drastically* different from him, but yeah. We're talking about writing stories, and children are full of imagination (although some have better eloquence than others), and when Ed was a child stories and imagination were a huge part of what kids would use to entertain themselves. I really don't get why it's such a big deal to the point of accusing him to be lying :/


----------



## murquhart72 (Jun 7, 2017)

JeffB said:


> Do your Mommy and Daddy know you are using their computer?




HA! murquhart72 BUUURRR-- hey wait


----------



## Barolo (Jun 7, 2017)

I know it has been pointed out already, but I would like to somehow add to the choir: Why is Acererak being carelessly thrown on the realms? I mean, there are some quite interesting liches, evil archmages or über-priests of evil deities already on the realms that could easily fulfill the role, aren't they?

It does not matter much, as if I bother to buy and run the adventure I can just adjust whatever to my tastes, but I would definitely find it more thoughtful if the adventure would be designed in the realms with a villain from the realms, and Acererak would be referred on that section that has been usually included in the books regarding adapting the material for other settings.


----------



## jasper (Jun 7, 2017)

Barolo said:


> I know it has been pointed out already, but I would like to somehow add to the choir: Why is Acererak being carelessly thrown on the realms? I mean, there are some quite interesting liches, evil archmages or über-priests of evil deities already on the realms that could easily fulfill the role, aren't they?
> ....



Um the others did not return WOTC phone calls? Um the others want to much percentage of sales? Um the others were busy with poker night.


----------



## KeithL (Jun 7, 2017)

I can't lie I am definitely stoked about an adventure in Chult!


----------



## JeffB (Jun 7, 2017)

Barolo said:


> I know it has been pointed out already, but I would like to somehow add to the choir: Why is Acererak being carelessly thrown on the realms? I mean, there are some quite interesting liches, evil archmages or über-priests of evil deities already on the realms that could easily fulfill the role, aren't they?
> 
> It does not matter much, as if I bother to buy and run the adventure I can just adjust whatever to my tastes, but I would definitely find it more thoughtful if the adventure would be designed in the realms with a villain from the realms, and Acererak would be referred on that section that has been usually included in the books regarding adapting the material for other settings.




I don't know Realms canon so well but I agree.

Larloch is a Lich, no?

And Allokair?

For my campaign* ending/group going away adventure, Allokair and Acererak are one and the same, and he also goes by other names depending on the time in realms history. He was an advisor to Pharoahs in my version of Netheril and banished from Toril by powerful magics. Since I was a kid, I decided for my games he exists in all worlds with many different names. Over the years my players have accidentally allowed him back into the world.


*Keep in mind, my Realms are very different in ways than published Realms . the OGB is my rough starting point, albeit, nothing is set in stone from that work, either. Netheril is not Phaerim and Shades. Mulhorand in it's Glory is a poor imitation of Great Netheril (and where most survivors from magic blasted Netheril ended up).

Ok, that's enough "In my campaign" nerd spew.

My point is- FR can and does have some big name Liches of it's own. Perkins should flex his creativity more.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 7, 2017)

JeffB said:


> I don't know Realms canon so well but I agree.
> 
> Larloch is a Lich, no?
> 
> ...




The answer is pretty simple: Name Recognition. 

Everyone who knows anything about D&D knows who Acererak is, even if they only know his most famous work (the Tomb of Horrors.) But most people that play do not know who Larloch and Allokair are. Realms fans do, but for the players not familiar with the Realms? They have no idea. But even newbies know of or are quickly made aware of the Tomb of Horrors and it's resident Demilich.

The goal for every single one of 5e's adventure releases has always been to replicate the shared experiences feeling that AD&D had. Back then everyone played through the great adventures like Tomb of Horrors, Temple of Elemental Evil and Against the Giants. Everyone who played during those days have shared stories about their time with those Modules. WotC wants that to be the case for 5e as well, and a great way to do it is to use recognizable names like Acererak and Tiamat and Strahd. 

And you know what? It is working. 5th edition is one of the most successful editions the game has ever seen. The games growth in terms of sales, the player base, and the cultural awareness the game has received since 5th editions release is all tied back to how Wizards has handled this editions content. 

It may not scratch some people's particular itch, but it has done so much to help this games growth that it isn't likely to change any time soon.


----------



## Chaosmancer (Jun 7, 2017)

And another thing, since we are griping and that levels 1-11 thing still bothers me. For all the people where the APs and AL are their primary source of DnD, shouldn't we have an adventure that hits level 20 by now?

We are three years into 5e, and if all you play are the adventure paths the highest level you have likely gotten is 15 and that was to fight Juliblex or some other Demon Lord in a weakened state in the Underdark. 

A plane hopping lich with a trap filled lair and centuries of experience preparing for adventurers to come and wreck his stuff would be the perfect time to have at least one adventure that pops those last five levels. 


And man, what kind of expectations they are building for if they ever do drop a level 20 adventure. Players have fought Gods, Demon Lords, the Vampire Master of a Plane of Existence, stopped a plane hopping lich, did whatever it was the climax of SKT was.

And never were they as powerful as they could possibly be. Most of the time they were only at the half way point. They are kind of writing themselves into corners aren't they?


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 7, 2017)

Chaosmancer said:


> And another thing, since we are griping and that levels 1-11 thing still bothers me. For all the people where the APs and AL are their primary source of DnD, shouldn't we have an adventure that hits level 20 by now?
> 
> We are three years into 5e, and if all you play are the adventure paths the highest level you have likely gotten is 15 and that was to fight Juliblex or some other Demon Lord in a weakened state in the Underdark.
> 
> ...




Chris Perkins said their data shows there is not a high demand for high level APs, and that most DM's prefer to run their own Homebrew for high level games. He said they would happily make a high level AP if and when the data shows that the demand is high enough.


----------



## Azzy (Jun 7, 2017)

pming said:


> Hiya.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Somebody missed Return to the Tomb of Horrors from 2e.


----------



## JeffB (Jun 7, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> The answer is pretty simple: Name Recognition.
> 
> Everyone who knows anything about D&D knows who Acererak is, even if they only know his most famous work (the Tomb of Horrors.) But most people that play do not know who Larloch and Allokair are. Realms fans do, but for the players not familiar with the Realms? They have no idea. But even newbies know of or are quickly made aware of the Tomb of Horrors and it's resident Demilich.
> 
> ...




I.understand all the business reasons for 5his.

As someone who has seen all of this since the beginning  ( i was playing around the time of G1's release) and seen it done over and over again for each edition  I cannot fathom why fandom wants it this way. Nor can I understand a creative type who wants.to ride on others coat-tails, unless it is purely, like WOTC proper makes it, a financial decison. 



:shrug:


----------



## briggart (Jun 7, 2017)

*The New D&amp;D Adventure Is - Tomb of Annihilation!*



GarrettKP said:


> The answer is pretty simple: Name Recognition.
> 
> Everyone who knows anything about D&D knows who Acererak is, even if they only know his most famous work (the Tomb of Horrors.) But most people that play do not know who Larloch and Allokair are. Realms fans do, but for the players not familiar with the Realms? They have no idea. But even newbies know of or are quickly made aware of the Tomb of Horrors and it's resident Demilich.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure I totally agree that the adventure path approach is the main driver for D&D resurgence. I think that a large part is due to external factors. It's anecdotal evidence, but we our 20 something years old group had an influx of 3 separate new players that wanted to learn the game because they are fan of the Big Bang Theory. WotC has been good at taking advantage of this, and 5e is a great game for new players, but I don't think that it would have enjoyed as much success if it had come out right after 3.5.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 7, 2017)

JeffB said:


> I.understand all the business reasons for 5his.
> 
> As someone who has seen all of this since the beginning  ( i was playing around the time of G1's release) and seen it done over and over again for each edition  I cannot fathom why fandom wants it this way. Nor can I understand a creative type who wants.to ride on others coat-tails, unless it is purely, like WOTC proper makes it, a financial decison.
> 
> ...




Using one named legacy villain for your AP doesn't mean you are riding on someone else coat tails. Honestly we have no idea how much of ToA is similar to ToH, if any at all. Making the exact same dungeon and adventure with a different Lich at the top would not be more creative at all. The creativity comes from what is in the pages, not who's face is on the cover.

Also frankly I think the reason you do not get what the Fandom wants is probably because you are not a proper representation of the average D&D fan anymore. The majority of players are either fairly new, or haven't played in years and have no problem seeing things they are familiar with still existing in the game. The 35 year Vet that has never stopped playing and has played every edition just isn't the norm.


----------



## DEFCON 1 (Jun 7, 2017)

JeffB said:


> As someone who has seen all of this since the beginning  ( i was playing around the time of G1's release) and seen it done over and over again for each edition  I cannot fathom why fandom wants it this way. Nor can I understand a creative type who wants.to ride on others coat-tails, unless it is purely, like WOTC proper makes it, a financial decison.




Yeah, and I cannot understand why _Big Bang Theory_ has been the #1 comedy for almost 10 years while _Parks & Recreation_ and _Community_ were barely hanging on from being cancelled.  And yet that's how it was.  Almost as though my personal tastes were not representative of everyone and in fact I might be the odd one.  Humbling, isn't it?


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 7, 2017)

briggart said:


> I'm not sure I totally agree that the adventure path approach is the main driver for D&D resurgence. I think that a large part is due to external factors. It's anecdotal evidence, but we our 20 something years old group had an influx of 3 separate new players that wanted to learn the game because they are fan of the Big Bang Theory. WotC has been good at taking advantage of this, and 5e is a great game for new players, but I don't think that it would have enjoyed as much success if it had come out right after 3.5.




Do not mistake me. I am not saying the APs are the sole reason for the success. I am saying Wizards of the Coast is. They have capitalized on the cultural boom that has occurred and the way they have handled 5th edition is a big reason why they were able to capitalize on it. It's emergence in Hollywood mixed with the streaming boom that has happened in recent years (a streaming boom that, if I am not mistaken, Wizards kicked off with the Acquisitions Inc live games) has raised the awareness of the game, and the slow paced release mixed with the sort of pandering to the older crowed with these legacy characters is part of how they have kept the edition riding the high it is on IMO.


----------



## Chaosmancer (Jun 7, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Yeah, and I cannot understand why _Big Bang Theory_ has been the #1 comedy for almost 10 years while _Parks & Recreation_ and _Community_ were barely hanging on from being cancelled.  And yet that's how it was.  Almost as though my personal tastes were not representative of everyone and in fact I might be the odd one.  Humbling, isn't it?




No, it is clearly indicative of a large "Silent Majority" who believe exactly like I do, but are simply waiting for a flag to rally around.

Or something like that,


----------



## JeffB (Jun 7, 2017)

DEFCON 1 said:


> Yeah, and I cannot understand why _Big Bang Theory_ has been the #1 comedy for almost 10 years while _Parks & Recreation_ and _Community_ were barely hanging on from being cancelled.  And yet that's how it was.  Almost as though my personal tastes were not representative of everyone and in fact I might be the odd one.  Humbling, isn't it?




I'm not sure I would say it is humbling. I get we all like different things, but I would liken "D&D fandom" and WOTC to my ex-brother in-law.

Since he was a child, he would put Ketchup on everything. Burgers, fries, fish, eggs, broccolli, bacon, carrots, spaghetti (even though it had marinara on it already), tuna fish..pretty much everything but dessert or fruit. 

To this day, now in his 40s, he will go to a world class steakhouse in NYC and pour ketchup all over his $60 8oz. filet.

WOTC is putting ketchup on everything.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 7, 2017)

JeffB said:


> I'm not sure I would say it is humbling. I get we all like different things, but I would liken "D&D fandom" and WOTC to my ex-brother in-law.
> 
> Since he was a child, he would put Ketchup on everything. Burgers, fries, fish, eggs, broccolli, bacon, carrots, spaghetti (even though it had marinara on it already), tuna fish..pretty much everything but dessert or fruit.
> 
> ...




WotC is putting Ketchup on everything because their customers are asking for Ketchup.


----------



## JeffB (Jun 7, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> WotC is putting Ketchup on everything because their customers are asking for Ketchup.




I would say, TSR/WOTC has made such an investment in ketchup over the years, that nobody knows what anything actually tastes like anymore.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 7, 2017)

JeffB said:


> I would say, TSR/WOTC has made such an investment in ketchup over the years, that nobody knows what anything actually tastes like anymore.




Maybe, but the only reason they started putting ketchup on everything is because it sold better than the things without ketchup.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Jun 7, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> Chris Perkins said their data shows there is not a high demand for high level APs, and that most DM's prefer to run their own Homebrew for high level games. He said they would happily make a high level AP if and when the data shows that the demand is high enough.




The problem with that philosophy is that sometimes people don't know what they are going to like until they try it. I didn't think I'd like sushi until I had some good sushi, and I'm usually pretty good at making such predictions based on past experiences.

Write an adventure (not a fan of the paths myself) that goes to 20th level, make it _*awesome*_ and see what the fans say.


----------



## Staffan (Jun 7, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Any ideas for where it might go in Mystara?




The Orc's Head Peninsula or the Arm of the Immortals, over in the Savage Coast region (far west of the Known World), would seem like reasonable places to put it.


----------



## pming (Jun 8, 2017)

Hiya!



Azzy said:


> Somebody missed Return to the Tomb of Horrors from 2e.




LOL!  Nope...have my boxed set sitting right behind me, actually. Never played it. Kinda gave it the "once over" and though to myself _Yup...par for the course with 2e stuff_. (which, btw, wasn't a good thing in my circle...we stuck with 1e after giving 2e a good 1.5 to 2 year shot; only Dark Sun had us playing 2e).

I'm not specifically _against_ taking an old iconic name/item/whatever and putting it into something new or using it as a spring board to come up with something new. Just make it _actually be_ something new. Why didn't they come up with a new lich who may have stumbled upon an old, secret lair/dungeon that Acererak had? No problem...Acererak isn't mentioned in any marketing spin/BS because he has virtually _nothing_ to do with it. But they didn't. They mention him. Specifically. And then he has virtually _nothing_ to do with the actual adventure. Because, well, Acererak is long dead. 

After the _Tales from the Yawning Portal_ having virtually _nothing_ to do with the Yawning Portal, and now this Acererak thing...I'm even _less_ likely to buy a WotC book. It makes me sad. I really _really_ was looking forward to spending cash on new D&D stuff!   Too bad WotC just keeps cranking out stuff that I have absolutely no interest in...

^_^

Paul L. Ming


----------



## Hussar (Jun 8, 2017)

JeffB said:


> I.understand all the business reasons for *5his*.
> 
> /snip
> :shrug:




That is a freaking hilarious typo.    Just perfectly fitting.

There's always been a problem in D&D with trying to flog high level adventures.  They just don't sell.  But, then again, it used to be a truism that modules didn't sell either.  That's been proven wrong.

Maybe, just maybe, if you build it, they will come.

Although, thinking about it, isn't this where the DM's Guild should be stepping up?  That's a huge hole that's begging to be filled.  Even on DM's Guild, there are almost no high level adventures.  At a quick count, there are 29 products for 17th level+ on DM's Guild.  The 3rd tier has 88, but, a lot of those end at about 13th level.  

In comparison there are 770 1st tier (level 1-4) products on DM's Guild.  

I'd say WotC isn't doing this because no one is doing it.  No one's found the magic bullet yet anyway.


----------



## JeffB (Jun 8, 2017)

Hussar said:


> That is a freaking hilarious typo.    Just perfectly fitting..




I was waiting for someone to pick up on it. I almost edited it out but I felt I should leave it for posterity


----------



## hawkeyefan (Jun 8, 2017)

It sounds to me like the story revolves around Acererak's continuing scheme, building upon the adventures in which he's appeared in the past. Similar to how Return to The Tomb of Horrors expanded on his earlier appearance and shed new light on his actual goals, it sounds like this adventure is an extension of that. 

As such, it seems that Acererak is essential to the story playing out the way it does. Even if the PCs must thwart his plans without confronting him directly. Using Larloch or Szass Tam would change the story. Sure, they're all liches, but each has their own goals and schemes. 

I think Return to the Tomb is a great adventure. And so did Gygax. So I'm hoping this one uses the lore in a cool way to create another good adventure.


----------



## Shasarak (Jun 8, 2017)

murquhart72 said:


> Have they announced the Central Flanaess Adventurer's Guide yet? SO looking forward to that book!




Which part of the Forgotten Realms is the Flanaess in again?  I forget.


----------



## murquhart72 (Jun 8, 2017)

Shasarak said:


> Which part of the Forgotten Realms is the Flanaess in again?  I forget.




Ugh, FINE: The Dalelands Adventurer's Guide, complete with the lost elven city of Greyhawk nestled deep in the Valley of the Mage (run by a Red Wizard lich of course).

But in slightly more seriousness:
Man, you'd think with all the Greyhawk swiping they do for 'name recognition' that they'd just simply use GREYHAWK as their default setting instead of that book series with What's-His-Name, the elf with the black skin and white hair who's evil, but isn't? Ah well, once Gary was ousted I guess that was the last anybody really wanted to do with D&D's first official setting


----------



## SkidAce (Jun 8, 2017)

Ashardalon will be the next name drop after Acererak, my prediction, you heard it here first.


----------



## Jhaelen (Jun 8, 2017)

Hussar said:


> In other words, it's okay when someone you like does it, but, when someone you don't like does the same thing, it's bad.



Got it in one - congratulations! For some inexplicable reason I just don't care about things I just don't care about.


Hussar said:


> Like I said, this has been going on for years.  No matter what WotC does, they will fold the hundred dollar bill entirely wrong.



My apologies, I didn't realize you were a Justin Bieber fan.
Let's try to be fair: According to the interwebz he actually didn't completely botch his Beatles cover song.


----------



## EthanSental (Jun 8, 2017)

murquhart72 said:


> But in slightly more seriousness:
> Man, you'd think with all the Greyhawk swiping they do for 'name recognition' that they'd just simply use GREYHAWK as their default setting instead of that book series with What's-His-Name, the elf with the black skin and white hair who's evil, but isn't? Ah well, once Gary was ousted I guess that was the last anybody really wanted to do with D&D's first official setting




Swiping from Greyhawk for name recognition would be a travesty as Gary had some odd and very weird naming going on.  I'm sure FR has example too with as many products that have seen print, but I mentally see Gary sitting around a table like a 14 year old trying to think up what he thinks are cool names with little reasoning behind it.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 8, 2017)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




More assumptions. If the WotC team says Acererak is in the book why would we not believe them? He is in the book, he is a major NPC and he built everything you have to face or stop in this adventure. So why do you assume he has nothing to do with it when they have said the exact opposite?


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## Horwath (Jun 8, 2017)

It would be nice to get more beasts from 1 to 6 CR for moon druids. This book will be a great source.


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 8, 2017)

Horwath said:


> It would be nice to get more beasts from 1 to 6 CR for moon druids. This book will be a great source.




This book does not have new monsters. For that go check out Volo's Guide to Monsters.


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## Chaosmancer (Jun 8, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> This book does not have new monsters. For that go check out Volo's Guide to Monsters.




That's an odd assertion when they have specifically called out having "Zombie T-rexs that vomit zombies" Which I for one have not seen in Volo's 

As well as a few other creatures they mentioned, though I don't recall the list


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 8, 2017)

Chaosmancer said:


> That's an odd assertion when they have specifically called out having "Zombie T-rexs that vomit zombies" Which I for one have not seen in Volo's
> 
> As well as a few other creatures they mentioned, though I don't recall the list




My fault, just realized this is the Adventure thread. Thought I was replying to a comment in the Xanathar's Guide to Everything thread. My apologies.


----------



## Demetrios1453 (Jun 8, 2017)

GarrettKP said:


> This book does not have new monsters. For that go check out Volo's Guide to Monsters.



Actually, they said it will have a section in the back for new monsters, just like every AP so far. The stream and related interviews have even mentioned a few, like the pterafolk. I'm sure we'll see some new beasts as well, at the very least some new dinosaur varieties...

Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app


----------



## GarrettKP (Jun 8, 2017)

Demetrios1453 said:


> Actually, they said it will have a section in the back for new monsters, just like every AP so far. The stream and related interviews have even mentioned a few, like the pterafolk. I'm sure we'll see some new beasts as well, at the very least some new dinosaur varieties...
> 
> Sent from my VS987 using EN World mobile app




Refer to my post directly above yours.


----------



## jimmytheccomic (Jun 8, 2017)

Just because WoTCs adventure paths are getting trashed in this thread in general, I just wanted to add my perspective to the mix. I think I'm the target audience they're trying to hit, and they're nailing it. 

I've been tabletop gaming with some combination of the same group for 23 years now, since middle school, but we barely touched Dungeons and Dragons except when we were just starting out. We played a bit with our parents, but we got into D6 Star Wars in High School, and stuck with that for a while. As a DM, I didn't like running 3rd or 4th edition, I found them too clunky- so, we had a soft spot for D&D, and I always kept an ear open for what was going on, but we stuck with D6 Star Wars, Adventure!, Mutants and Masterminds, and various homebrew stuff. (Except for a return to 2e so I could run "Ravenloft" for everybody.)

Growing up, we'd always heard about Tiamat, Beholders, Demogorgon, Acecerak, etc. from our parents, but we'd left the game before ever really getting high level enough to deal with it, they were like these mythical things we were just sort of aware of. Now, 5th edition came out just as a long running campaign wrapped up (a five year game I ran based on the Dark Tower novels), and it was finally a system that I liked running! It felt smoother, it's got enough complexity to keep my rules lawyers players happy but my story-based players aren't overwhelmed, and the plots are letting us take in experiences with these epic monsters that had always been to the side. As a DM, I also love it because it's pretty easy to convert older material, so I've got a wealth of D&D stuff to use to punch up the modules- I started a thread a while ago about adding 4e and 3e adventures to the Tiamat campaign.

Yawning Portal let us finally try our hands at the "Tomb of Horrors" that we'd always been aware of- it ended in a total party kill, my players are itching to get revenge against Acerak, and now they're handing us this campaign to let them take him down a peg. 

I know it probably doesn't seem a fresh to people that have been active in D&D specifically all this time, but I've never been more jazzed for it. I am dropping so much cash on campaign books, supplements, miniatures (We haven't used miniatures on the table in 20 years!). So, I did just want to give firsthand evidence that what they're doing is working like gangbusters to certain segments.


----------



## Sword of Spirit (Jun 8, 2017)

jimmytheccomic said:


> Now, 5th edition came out just as a long running campaign wrapped up (a five year game I ran based on the Dark Tower novels), and it was finally a system that I liked running! It felt smoother,




Smoother--that's a good descriptor for how it feels to me too. It's hard to describe why that term fits, but that's the feel I get.



> Yawning Portal let us finally try our hands at the "Tomb of Horrors" that we'd always been aware of- it ended in a total party kill, my players are itching to get revenge against Acerak, and now they're handing us this campaign to let them take him down a peg.




What level was the TPKed party at, and how much experience did they have playing 5e at the time? (Trying to calibrate for running it for my group.)


----------



## pming (Jun 8, 2017)

Hiya!



GarrettKP said:


> More assumptions. If the WotC team says Acererak is in the book why would we not believe them? He is in the book, he is a major NPC and he built everything you have to face or stop in this adventure. So why do you assume he has nothing to do with it when they have said the exact opposite?




I think we're going in circles here. Acererak is dead. He *can't* be a major NPC....well, unless they decided to just ignore everything about his AD&D history and basically build yet another uber-lich and slap the name "Acererak" on it for nothing more than name recognition. I can slap "Lamborghini" on the side of my Honda Odyssey mini-van...doesn't make it a lambo though. 

That's my main contention. If they are going to use specific names of things that have already been established...they should also honour the history that got those things established in the first place. They shouldn't be grabbing name's, places, items, etc willy-nilly and then ignoring 90% of what those things actually *are*. In D&D, Acererak is dead. Long dead. He was a lich, then died...becoming a demi-lich (which is basically a skull that sits there until you poke it with a stick). Now, having an entirely _new _lich who happened upon something that Acererak created, researched, found, or whatever...ok. Fine with me. That serves to tie things together, 'timeline' wise and would be a good use of 'name recognition'. But I hate it when writers take something already established, then "re-imagine" it, banking on name recognition to somehow make their crappy story seem good (...not calling ToA crappy...it's not even out..just going by other such re-imagined stories, books, video games and movies). Ditto for those that take something that was destroyed/killed and try the handwaving "But no!....y'see...it _was all a dream!_"...and then stare at you with s dumb smile on their face waiting for you to grasp just how genius their idea is when all you want to do is violate their facial space with your fist.

_"Ok, so it's set in Middle Earth, right. And, like, the beginning scene opens up on Mount Doom erupting, lava bombs falling from the sky, poisonous gas, and all that kind of thing. Then...as the camera gets closer to the ground and a small lava flow...there it pops up. The One Ring!  ...pause...  Get it? So the ring didn't get destroyed at all! It came flowing out with the lava! ...pauses with dumb smile on face waiting for others to acknowledge his genius..."_



^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Mouseferatu (Jun 8, 2017)

Except that, once gain, you're ignoring the character's history. This is what he's been since second edition. This is what he was in _Return to the Tomb of Horrors_ (which had Gary's stamp of approval). This is what he was in the 4E _Tomb of Horrors_.

The designers of 5E aren't ignoring or changing the character's history, they're building on it. You may not like, or even have read, the source material subsequent to the original ToH, but that doesn't make it suddenly cease to exist.


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## SigmaOne (Jun 8, 2017)

jimmytheccomic said:


> I know it probably doesn't seem a fresh to people that have been active in D&D specifically all this time, but I've never been more jazzed for it. I am dropping so much cash on campaign books, supplements, miniatures (We haven't used miniatures on the table in 20 years!). So, I did just want to give firsthand evidence that what they're doing is working like gangbusters to certain segments.




I'm with you. I played 2e through junior high and high school, and then did not play for almost 20 years until the 5e playtest came out.  Coincidentally we had been playing a lot of board games with some friends, and one of them mentioned they really wanted to try D&D. So we've gotten back into it, and this time I have *much more* disposable income. I've been happy with just about all the 5e products I've read so far (I haven't read quite all of them). I think they're doing a fantastic job, and I think many new and returning audiences are responding really well to the products. The vast majority of players, even DMs, have a much more casual relationship to D&D than basically anyone posting here, and they just don't care about arguments over canon. This is similar to what we see in comic books.

I *do* want to see new stuff. New settings, different ideas. I do hope they don't go on with the nostalgia forever. But the fact is that so far they've generally done a great job with it, and all the new material has been interesting, inventive, and in many ways very original even when inspired by classic adventures. Anyway, players so deep into the canon are probably doing their own homebrew campaigns anyway, just as most of the creators do, so it doesn't make a lot of sense to target them with products.


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## Hussar (Jun 8, 2017)

pming said:


> /snip
> 
> "...and then stare at you with s dumb smile on their face waiting for you to grasp just how genius their idea is when all you want to do is violate their facial space with your fist.
> 
> ...




I'd watch the crap out of that.  Sounds like a great movie.


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## SkidAce (Jun 9, 2017)

pming said:


> . In D&D, Acererak is dead. Long dead. He was a lich, then died...becoming a demi-lich




Actually  , its "he died and became a lich".  He was DEAD the whole time!

And then deteriorated into a demi-lich.



/grin


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## jimmytheccomic (Jun 9, 2017)

Sword of Spirit said:


> What level was the TPKed party at, and how much experience did they have playing 5e at the time? (Trying to calibrate for running it for my group.)




We've been playing 5e about a year, although I found system mastery had less of an influence than just general puzzle/problem solving- there really wasn't a ton of rolling dice. They took things slow and careful, and essentially blew through the dungeon with no problem until the end (mage hand makes short work of most of the traps.) However, once Acerak was awoken, the demilich made short work of them, they were a level 10 party.


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## Sword of Spirit (Jun 9, 2017)

jimmytheccomic said:


> We've been playing 5e about a year, although I found system mastery had less of an influence than just general puzzle/problem solving- there really wasn't a ton of rolling dice. They took things slow and careful, and essentially blew through the dungeon with no problem until the end (mage hand makes short work of most of the traps.) However, once Acerak was awoken, the demilich made short work of them, they were a level 10 party.




Cool.


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## Jhaelen (Jun 9, 2017)

SkidAce said:


> And then deteriorated into a demi-lich.



And then he further deteriorated into a vestige!


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## Remathilis (Jun 10, 2017)

SkidAce said:


> Ashardalon will be the next name drop after Acererak, my prediction, you heard it here first.



I'd be fine with that.


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## Ath-kethin (Jun 10, 2017)

It's interesting to me that the cover image is all Acererak. If Acererak _isn't_ intended to be an actual foe in this one (in that the PCs aren't intended to face/defeat him), wouldn't it make more sense to have something on the cover about the jungle?


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## JeffB (Jun 10, 2017)

Speaking of...I will say most of the art I have seen looks great (except for those weird savage dwarves or whatever they are) The art has a Xen'drik sort of vibe to it.


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## StarFyre (Jun 20, 2017)

so i ordered the pegasus models resin trex.  Gonna hollow it out and undeadify the surrface...then add zombies coming from its mouth, break its jaw like in the art, etc and make my own zombie vomiting trex


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## robus (Jun 20, 2017)

Just watched the High Rollers ToA-oriented adventure and really enjoyed the DMs high-energy presentation. He really knew his stuff and did a great job bringing things to life. The group was great all around IMHO.

Here's a link for those that haven't seen it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBBnJRHItKo


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## Klaudius Rex (Jul 20, 2017)

sorry to necro this post, but i am wondering what exactly is included in the Tomb and Traps case incentive?

i see a tomb, a portal, fire traps and the devil in the wall face, but what else are those other minis?
if anyone can figure it out, i sure would like to know.

also, do you think its worth the extra money to get the case incentive? or is it better to just craft these things or draw them out on your battlegrid?

Thanks in advance!


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## killer_rabbit13 (Jul 21, 2017)

I can't wait for dino racing


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## DerKastellan (Aug 15, 2017)

I guess we will never see an end to modules lifting this or that from older stuff. Which I'm not exactly against - you see, most people probably, definitely including me, never got the chance to play it all. And I'm of no mind to go back to 1e or convert it all by myself just to give it a try. I mean, they have tons of material to dig through.

I would personally welcome if they had a bit more diversity - or do two AP at the same time. Every time one comes out I don't happen to like I'm stuck waiting half a year to see if they hew closer to my tastes next time. Dinosaurs and an undead menace in Chult isn't exactly my thing. Might still buy it for stuff to lift.

Lucky for them all groups I play in are super slow. It took us ages to finish the starter set or CoS. Also, lots of homebrewn stuff, not exactly waiting for WotC to fill my needs, anyway. Still, updated "Dark Sun" or any other setting stuff would be welcome by now. I'm not hating on the FR, it's fine with me, just a second set of APs set elsewhere would have been fine. I get it that it would not be easy to maintain a second set of top authors just for pushing AP, but they did not need that when out-sourcing them early on to friendly 3rd party publishers, either. 

I'm at this point not expecting any truly new stuff from WotC. It's a hunch, but it has a lot of circumstantial evidence pointing to it. I mean, most adventures drop names one way or the other. Another setting contest like the one that gave us Eberron would be cool, though.

Not exactly excited about "Xanathar's" either but maybe it pimps up some classes I've not been too excited about in their PHB versions. I guess I am glad that they are not swamping us with options like 3e and 4e did. No DMG2 or PHB3 either. That part of their publishing policy works for me.

I could get behind an AP that does not start with lv1 and with one that goes to lv20. I'm not into restarting play at lv1 or lv3 or missing out on most of a book's content. CoS was an exception in that even at lv7 for our starting characters (from a homebrewn campaign) it managed to stay challenging. It's nice for players to beat "big baddies" - and I have no issue with beating Strahd "so early" because beating Strahd with empowered items has been part of the module since 1983. But if you always end up beating baddies of that caliber at around lv12 then DMs are really challenged to come up with a true villain for lv20 if they are supposed to make their own endgame. Not saying you always have to end with a boss, but if all the cool villains already happened and you have to set up your own uber-baddie after defeating those everybody knows - that's a tall order. I mean, the whole point of publishing AP is that there are people who have no time for prepping a whole AP themselves, including setting up a future villain. All these people get to do right now is... start over and over again. I mean, just another "Elder Evils" like for 3e... that was a good book and you could end a campaign with quite some bang for the buck.

At this point I have almost left as many books on the shelf as I have bought.


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## Quickleaf (Aug 15, 2017)

Klaudius Rex said:


> sorry to necro this post, but i am wondering what exactly is included in the Tomb and Traps case incentive?
> 
> i see a tomb, a portal, fire traps and the devil in the wall face, but what else are those other minis?
> if anyone can figure it out, i sure would like to know.
> ...




Go to 4:30 in this video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ahKMXiV7mMo

Is it worth it? Not to me. I feel like these pieces are meant for avid collectors, people who have sizable collections of Dwarven Forge 3D dungeon pieces (or the equivalent).


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