# Buffy 14 April 03



## myrdden (Apr 15, 2003)

Plot

Faith returns to Sunnydale along with a mysterious preacher named Caleb.


Thoughts

The first 3/4 of the episode was rather slow and a bit tedious but the dialogue between Faith and Spike was satisfying.  I suppose the first bit was to show Faith getting up to speed with life in modern Sunnydale.  It wasn't bad...just a tad slow.  Xander does give a nice speech, and Andrew still cracks me up everytime he talks.  He has a couple good lines.

Caleb is intriguing.  I'm not sure what to think of him yet but he is a great villian so far.  Who else from Firefly is going to show up?  I don't want to give too much away for people, but after this episode I think the next 4 are going to be pretty intense.  The last 15 minutes of the episode are well worth the previus 45 minute buildup (that includes the commercials too I guess).

I give the episode 8/10 - things are not well in Sunnydale after tonights episode.

Myrdden


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## Staffan (Apr 15, 2003)

myrdden said:
			
		

> *Who else from Firefly is going to show up?*



Gina "Zoë" Torres showed up on Angel.


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## myrdden (Apr 15, 2003)

*Re: Re: Buffy 14 April 03*



			
				Staffan said:
			
		

> *
> Gina "Zoë" Torres showed up on Angel. *




 

I know...hence the comment.

 

Myrdden


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## IceBear (Apr 15, 2003)

After seeing Caleb, I REALLY started missing Firefly.

For those that haven't seen it yet, keep an eye out for something big to happen to one of the main characters 

Also a couple of Andrews lines (Vulcans and Godzilla) were funny 

IceBear


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## Silver Moon (Apr 16, 2003)

ARRRRGHHHH!

I turn on the local UPN station after looking forward to the new Buffy & Faith episode and what do I get - the 7th Inning of the Red Sox/Tampa Bay Game!   #*@$!# sports station!   Wish they'd stayed on WB.


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## DM_Matt (Apr 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by IceBear _For those that haven't seen it yet, keep an eye out for something big to happen to one of the main characters
> [/B]




Groan.


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## Wolf72 (Apr 16, 2003)

I like dark stuff, but watching buffy is painful sometimes ... they're getting beat left right and sideways.

that being said I really miss firefly!!!



... and please tell me they're not going to go "week on/week off" for the new episodes!!!

5 left ... that's 10 weeks of torture!


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## DanMcS (Apr 16, 2003)

Wow, after last week's Angel and this week's Buffy, Joss sure is going for the gross-out blowout, isn't he?

I'm going to talk about it, because these threads are traditionally spoilerific for the current week only, nothing about next week please!



A little space though



So Caleb says "You're the one that sees.  Let's see what we can do about that."

That was a conversation that Xander and Dawn had privately.  Has the First been watching everyone the whole time?  I guess so.

The preacher schtick kept cracking me up.  "You're the Cain to her Able.  No offense to Cain of course."

And wow, that guy was way tougher than he initially let on.


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## DanMcS (Apr 16, 2003)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> *... and please tell me they're not going to go "week on/week off" for the new episodes!!!
> 5 left ... that's 10 weeks of torture! *




Apparently there's a rerun next week, and then four new episodes.  That should be all of them.


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## Dr Midnight (Apr 16, 2003)

Oh, man, that was rough. Great episode.

Does anyone else think Andrew is a sad discovery, someone this good THIS late in the game? I mean, I want Andrew making me giggle from season 4 onward... sigh... the time we have, eet ees so breef.


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## Wolf72 (Apr 16, 2003)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Apparently there's a rerun next week, and then four new episodes.  That should be all of them. *





four in a row ... I can handle that!


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## Merlion (Apr 16, 2003)

Ok I am *SO*  going to love it when this preacher guy gets his butt kicked! Its been a while since a villian has just pissed me off this much.
  Although the fact that theirs going to be a repeat next week pisses me off almost as much. Finaly we're starting to actualy have some things happen, and we get a rerun!
  So, theories on whats going to happen?
Is Jasmine on ANgel another aspect of the First? Is buffy going to die again?


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## Chun-tzu (Apr 16, 2003)

Some random comments...

Hey, UPN! Enough with the reruns already! Don't start a countdown when you're going to keep interrupting it.

I wonder if any show in the history of television has had so many characters switch back and forth between good guy and bad guy: Angel, Faith, Spike, Willow, Andrew, Anya.

Seeing Caleb (and of course, Jasmine last week) also made me miss Firefly.

I remember someone had a theory that Xander's fate was to become a Watcher, sometime in the future. For some reason, today's episode makes me think that's very likely.

Faith wasn't as cool as she was over in Angel. I guess there are few people for her to interact with in an interesting way, with Buffy and Spike being the main ones, but it wasn't nearly as interesting as seeing her with Wesley.

This is a minor nitpick, but I wish they'd show Buffy as a smarter tactician. When Caleb starts clobbering them all left and right, without breaking a sweat, she should have switched to more lethal tactics than just trying to punch or kick him. Buffy's a great fighter, of course, but she still has much to learn, despite what she tells Giles. She should have tried a choke attack, or stabbing him in the neck, kncking him down and grappling him, or something along those lines, because it was obvious that her best punch wouldn't faze him.

Speaking of the rift between Buffy and Giles, they better fix that before the series ends (and I'm sure they will). We can't have the show ending with Buffy and her "dad" not getting along.


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## Merlion (Apr 16, 2003)

Caleb's comment about Xander being the one who sees...and his attempt to blind him...hmm...does this have deeper meaning? As someone already pointed out theirs Xander and Dawn's discussion which means the first has been spying for a long time. but beyond that...saying that someone "sees" in a fantasy context can be a pretty big deal...especialy when you follow it by trying to blind them. Perhaps Xander isnt as ordinary as we think....
  He saved the world from Evil Willow. Perhaps he's going to be rather important this time..


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## Sulimo (Apr 16, 2003)

Holy ! 

Is Caleb an ass-kicking machine or what? 

And the injuries that Xander got had me rather stunned. 

+ Plus more Faith goodness... 
+ Kennedy survived


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## CCamfield (Apr 16, 2003)

I have to say that the scenes between Faith and Spike were pretty funny.  Particularly the one with Buffy as well.


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## Wormwood (Apr 16, 2003)

Overall it was fun, but I was disappointed on one point.

Caleb's introduction was auspicious. He became, in the course of 20 minutes, one of the most intriguing villains in the show's hostory (IMHO). The actor was dead-on perfect, both frightening and charismatic---my wife and I were both buzzing about how cool he was...and he was still in his truck!

Caleb benefitted from really good writing coupled with a fine performance (compare with Glory, who was written well put played poorly, or Adam who had the opposite problem).

Then, after this suspenseful and engaging build-up, the best the writers could come up with was a slugfest. I mean---that's it? All Caleb brings to the table is good dialog and a good right hook?Granted, it was one of the finest (and graphic) fights recent Buffy memory...but I found mysefl cold. 

I was hoping Caleb would be more than just another pugilist. We've seen the 'really strong guy' a bunch of times on this show. Couldn't they have had this character attack the scoobs from another angle?

Oh well. Good episode---great character. I just hope they do *more* with him.


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## Sulimo (Apr 16, 2003)

CCamfield said:
			
		

> *I have to say that the scenes between Faith and Spike were pretty funny.  Particularly the one with Buffy as well.  *




After that episode, I'm definitely a Spike/Faith 'shipper...


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## DanMcS (Apr 16, 2003)

When she walks in, they're laying on the bed, spike's nearly naked and they're both smoking...  I was dying.  "Say, aren't you usually at work right about now?"


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## Dr Midnight (Apr 16, 2003)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> *We've seen the 'really strong guy' a bunch of times on this show.  *



Yeah, but I think Caleb may well be THE STRONGEST humanoid we've ever seen on the show, with the exceptions of MAYBE Glory and the ubervamp. I mean, two full-fledged slayers, a small army of slayers junior, a deadly watcher, one of the best fighters in the Buffyverse history (Spike), and an apoclyptic wicca (in theory)... and he was toying with them. He didn't chase them, he just had some fun, made some quips and let them run free. What has ever hit Buffy that hard? 

I thought he was going to be something different as well, but I was quite pleased to see just how powerful he was. I guess I'm just happy to see something send a high-level party squealing.

The Xander eye poke made me cringe and grunt "Euugh!!" I really wasn't expecting that. He's the Zeppo... he never takes REAL damage. This was good to see. 

The roleplaying between Caleb and The First was very cool as well. "Ooh, wait, there was this girl... be her." Fun evil goodies.


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## Vocenoctum (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *
> I thought he was going to be something different as well, but I was quite pleased to see just how powerful he was. I guess I'm just happy to see something send a high-level party squealing.*




But it's usually the same formula. Buffy fights a big bad, gets slapped around a bit, a couple eps later she destroys it. I thought Caleb would be something more than simply "something stronger". 
I suppose maybe they'll justify his Super Powers later, but right now it just feels lacking.

But, I also wanted someone darker, not just a mildly crazy type.

I loved Faith/ Spike interaction, though Spike is STILL acting a little flat. If there had been a little more emotion in the "I'm not Angel!" stuff, it'd have been great.


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## Uzumaki (Apr 16, 2003)

Geez. Buffy & Co. are seriously outmatched. I cringed when Xander.... eech... _my_ eye hurts.


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## myrdden (Apr 16, 2003)

Dr Midnight said:
			
		

> *Does anyone else think Andrew is a sad discovery, someone this good THIS late in the game? I mean, I want Andrew making me giggle from season 4 onward... sigh... the time we have, eet ees so breef. *




I completely agree.  He brings a geekiness to the gang that none can match.  I too am disappointed that he joined the show so late in the game.

Myrdden


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## Tsyr (Apr 16, 2003)

Hell... I just watched the episode... I've been really tense for the last month or so over some real life issues, and a sinus infection gives me a headache that manifests around the temple/eye area... Gyeh... I just tossed down a librium to calm down. That was *not* something I ever expected to have happen to one of the main "white shirts"...


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## drothgery (Apr 16, 2003)

Hmm... I'm not sure what Caleb's deal is, but I think Wes and the pistols he has so much fun with would have been really useful. Didn't anyone think that guns probably work just fine against not-quite-humans like Bringers?


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## Droogie (Apr 16, 2003)

I'm relatively new to the show, so this is the first time I've seen Faith. I don't typically go for chicks like her, but man, her flirtation with Spike had me _drooling._


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## John Crichton (Apr 16, 2003)

I am a Caleb fan, actually more like a Nathan Fillion fan.  I've liked everything he has been in so far.  His "deranged preacher" is dead-on:  creepy, determined and DEranged.  Not to mention fun.  He's everything I hate about the bad parts of organized religion and men in general.  Biased and perverted with style equals a worthy opponent for Buffy's final Big Bad.  Joss is going out with all guns-a-blazing like he should.  This is gonna be fun.


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## AuroraGyps (Apr 16, 2003)

Caleb is definitely a very creepy & twisted baddie.  I wonder how his "dislike" of woman lead him to The First?  


> but I wish they'd show Buffy as a smarter tactician.



As for Buffy, I think she really underestimated Caleb as just another of The First's flunkies and that she and the whole group would be able to take care of him and some Bringers.  As he's talking to her, she looked absolutely terrified and intimidated, like "Uh Oh, we're in over our heads... what have I gotten us into... ?".  And after everything, Caleb never reveals what of Buffy's he has.  I don't think he just said that to get her to come to him... I think he really has "something" of hers, but I don't think it's one of her possesions.


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## Seaver (Apr 16, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *I am a Caleb fan, actually more like a Nathan Fillion fan.  I've liked everything he has been in so far.  .... *




Even Two Guys, a Girl, and a Pizza Place?


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## John Crichton (Apr 16, 2003)

Seaver said:
			
		

> *Even Two Guys, a Girl, and a Pizza Place? *



Certainly!  That show was hilarious.


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 16, 2003)

Off topic but I thought was funny...TNN is changing its name to Spike.    I kid you not!  

Is Nathan Fillion that tall in real life, he seemed so much bigger than everyone else in the combat.  Maybe it was an effect but it made him appear more the villian.  

As a person who has had issues with my eyes...Ayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!  Damn, that hurt!  Xander has always been the one to see to the heart of things and he has never been scarred.


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## Richards (Apr 16, 2003)

I just about lost it when Andrew made Xander explain to the newbie-Scoobies that Matthew Broderick didn't kill the _real_ Godzilla, merely a big monster with the same name.  I am emphatically of the same opinion -- I don't care what the name of that Matthew Broderick movie was, _that wasn't Godzilla!_

And the "Faith vs. the Vulcan" combat scene was hilarious!

Johnathan


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## ShinHakkaider (Apr 16, 2003)

drothgery said:
			
		

> *Hmm... I'm not sure what Caleb's deal is, but I think Wes and the pistols he has so much fun with would have been really useful. Didn't anyone think that guns probably work just fine against not-quite-humans like Bringers? *




Thank you.

I thought I was the only one who thought that. 

When Buffy and the Slayerettes rolled up in Caleb lair, I turned to mey buddy and said "no way would I walk in there. THey'd be coming outside to me".


To which he remarked "YEah and I'da stood back at range and turned that place into the last scene from THE WILD BUNCH."


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## WizarDru (Apr 16, 2003)

AuroraGyps said:
			
		

> * And after everything, Caleb never reveals what of Buffy's he has.  I don't think he just said that to get her to come to him... I think he really has "something" of hers, but I don't think it's one of her possesions. *




WizarDru's wacky theory #457: He has her power.  Let's do some math.  Caleb is the mastermind behind destroying the Watchers organization.  Presumably he robbed them right before the destruction, not Giles.  He hates women, and has waiting for a chance to meet (and presumably destroy) the Slayer.  Buffy needs power for the coming big battle (if the 'flash card monsters' are unleashed), and is woefully lacking in Slayer lore and information.  The first slayer has always been presented as monstrously powerful (and feral).  What if Caleb slew one of the previous members of the line pre-Buffy, and took her power for her own?

Mind you, this leaves a major hole in the question of why the Watchers (well, Giles at least)  never mentioned that the Slayer is woefully weaker than before...but there are lots of ways this could be resolved.  Or, perhaps Caleb somehow managed to get some of the slayer's power during one of Buffy's deaths.  Have we ever established why Buffy came back 'wrong'?  I don't recall what, if any, resolution occured with that.  Could this be tied up in that?


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## IceBear (Apr 16, 2003)

I would have set the place on fire 

BTW - I also loved Two Guys, a Girl and a Pizza place - the guy that was in Van Wilder (never saw it, only the trailers) was so funny.

IceBear


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## Jeremy (Apr 16, 2003)

"So you're the strongest, the fastest, th..."  *WHAM*  "What else have you got?"

I'm sorry.  But that made him my favorite villain right there.  Total surprise.  Well, that and the ruthless brutality use of his strength.  Instead of just hitting people around (which he did too) he had the advantage and pressed it taking the opportunity to do some long lasting damage that will seriously damage morale and capabilities.

If you've only got 4 episodes left, might as well play it like there's no tomorrow.  Time to pull out all the stops and play it hard.


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## WizarDru (Apr 16, 2003)

Yeah, but like most BBEG's he's made the classic mistake...he let the slayer live.  Any time that the slayer has enough time and motivation, she finds a way to kill....ANYTHING.  Gift of death, indeed.

Personally, the thing I find most interesting about Caleb is that he's very much Buffy's diametrically opposed opposite.  Not just dark versus light, but mysogynist versus empowered woman.  All women are dirty to Caleb.  In a cute little play on words, one could argue that Buffy gets Faith, while Caleb has none.

Heh.  Caleb isn't a just a bringer...he just plain 'Brought'.


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## IceBear (Apr 16, 2003)

I've read the spoilers for the upcoming episodes (I'm just too impatient) and there is a method to his madness.

IceBear


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## DanMcS (Apr 16, 2003)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> *But, I also wanted someone darker, not just a mildly crazy type.*




Mildly crazy?  The man's a serial killer.  Has been for a long time, apparently, much longer than he's been working with the Bringers and the First.  He's E V I L, man!  And excellent at it.  He's already blown right by the Mayor in my estimation, and is verging on Angelus-like levels of Big Bad-ness.


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## myrdden (Apr 16, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Personally, the thing I find most interesting about Caleb is that he's very much Buffy's diametrically opposed opposite.  Not just dark versus light, but mysogynist versus empowered woman.  *




This is exactly what I was thinking.  Caleb is some sort of an 'anti-Slayer' - a champion of evil so to speak.  

Myrdden


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## John Crichton (Apr 16, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Mind you, this leaves a major hole in the question of why the Watchers (well, Giles at least)  never mentioned that the Slayer is woefully weaker than before...but there are lots of ways this could be resolved.  Or, perhaps Caleb somehow managed to get some of the slayer's power during one of Buffy's deaths.  Have we ever established why Buffy came back 'wrong'?  I don't recall what, if any, resolution occured with that.  Could this be tied up in that? *



As for Buffy coming back 'wrong,' Tara said no to that with her spell.  It was when Buffy found out that chipified Spike could hurt her.  Tara said it was something akin to a tan or something like that and it was confusing the chip.  But it was still same old Buffy, according to Tara.


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## Wolf72 (Apr 16, 2003)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *I've read the spoilers for the upcoming episodes (I'm just too impatient) and there is a method to his madness.
> 
> IceBear *





... so where would one find these spoilers ... not that I'm looking or anything ... _nooooooo_ not me!


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## Vocenoctum (Apr 16, 2003)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Mildly crazy?  The man's a serial killer.  Has been for a long time, apparently, much longer than he's been working with the Bringers and the First.  He's E V I L, man!  And excellent at it.  He's already blown right by the Mayor in my estimation, and is verging on Angelus-like levels of Big Bad-ness. *




Yup, he's a super strength serial killer. That just doesn't seem like much... flavor I guess... to me that is.

And, Angelus slew families to drive people crazy, he had energy! 

Also, a friend pointed out, Caleb is the perfect villain to end the series with. The show has something of a misogynist tone to it at times. Xander is by no means a strong male character, Giles was the fatherly type and the closest they had going. (Angel was cursed, Spike has gone all wussy since getting souled, an tried to rape her before that. Oz was a decent one, but werewolfed, and even attacked Tara and went off with a female werewolf...)

I just expected different Caleb-ness I suppose, but I didn't feel like there was enough to the scene to make him a worthy villain. Tossing the stabbed girl out of the truck just didn't seem, um, Evil enough for me I guess.

The whole "tell her I have something of hers" thing was just silly to me. I'm happy that the Buffette's finally DID something, but they knew it was a trap the whole way, discussed it being a trap, and there plan was "we walk in, if we scream come fight"?
ah well.


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## DanMcS (Apr 16, 2003)

So, notice Faith knew about Dawn as Buffy's sister, even though she had been in jail for a year or so before dawn appeared.  The monks were thorough.

"Are you the bad slayer now?  Am I the good slayer now?"  I wish this show weren't ending.  Hah.


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## Umbran (Apr 16, 2003)

Merlion said:
			
		

> *saying that someone "sees" in a fantasy context can be a pretty big deal...especialy when you follow it by trying to blind them. Perhaps Xander isnt as ordinary as we think....*




Well, think about the injury just inflicted upon Xander.  Now, let us think about mythology.  Specifically Norse mythology....


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## CCamfield (Apr 17, 2003)

The trouble with these optimistic takes on Xander's injury is that the preacher certainly meant for the wound to reduce his vision, literally or figuratively.  I do hope something good will come of it, though.

DanMcS - I presume you meant the monks who 'created' Dawn?  They were supposed to have changed the whole world so that Dawn had always been there, so I wasn't surprised when Dawn recognized Faith.


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## Merlion (Apr 17, 2003)

Thats what I meant. I wonder if Xander doesnt already have some sort of special vision, and Caleb was trying to take it away


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## IceBear (Apr 17, 2003)

Wolf72 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> ... so where would one find these spoilers ... not that I'm looking or anything ... nooooooo not me! *




Just do a google search for Buffy spoilers and you'll find lots   I don't want to post links in case someone experiencing a moment of weak will clicks on it.

IceBear


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## Hand of Evil (Apr 17, 2003)

Merlion said:
			
		

> *Thats what I meant. I wonder if Xander doesnt already have some sort of special vision, and Caleb was trying to take it away *




Xander has always seen the big picture, his place in it as well as everyone elses.  He has used it to help everyone and show them the way from their fears and short comings.  

I just wonder if Caleb was too late, Xander's speech while before combat could give heart to Buffy later.


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## danzig138 (Apr 18, 2003)

I thought it was a great episode. I had seen the spoilers about Fillion appearing on Buffy (which sucks, people can be inconsiderate about these things), but I didn't realize he was going to show up so soon. I thought he was great on FF, but I wondered if he would be any good on anything else. Well, he is. I thought he brought a heck of a presence to the screen. Shame he's coing in so late in the season. I thought my woman was going to explode when she realized that he and Spike were on the same show, let alone when they shared the screen. Thought I might have to leave the room. this ep is just another one that convinces me that Buffy is still trumping Angel this season, and I'm looking forward to the next new one.


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## nHammer (Apr 18, 2003)

I really wish Caleb would've had a whole season as the main baddie.


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## Negative Zero (Apr 18, 2003)

nHammer said:
			
		

> *I really wish Caleb would've had a whole season as the main baddie. *




don't you mean you wish Mr.Fillion played Caleb for a whole season? i mean, sure, the character could have been there for the whole season, but Nathan would have been doing FireFly at the time. i'm betting that few other people would have been able to give that character that much depth and charisma and presence. Rock on.

~NegZ


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## nHammer (Apr 18, 2003)

Obviously Fillion would of had to be the actor playing Celab. His performence really makes the character.


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## Lizard (Apr 18, 2003)

CCamfield said:
			
		

> *
> 
> DanMcS - I presume you meant the monks who 'created' Dawn?  They were supposed to have changed the whole world so that Dawn had always been there, so I wasn't surprised when Dawn recognized Faith. *




I keep hoping they'd drop hints about the 'revised' history -- about things Dawn 'did' before the character actually appeared on the show. How did her prescence "change" the episodes we've already seen?


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## John Crichton (Apr 18, 2003)

Lizard said:
			
		

> *I keep hoping they'd drop hints about the 'revised' history -- about things Dawn 'did' before the character actually appeared on the show. How did her prescence "change" the episodes we've already seen? *



I guess since she wasn't in Sunnydale before she arrived on the show (wasn't she living with dad?) it wouldn't effect much that is going on now.


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## Tiberius (Apr 18, 2003)

My recollection of the beginning of Season Five are a bit hazy, but I don't think she was absent.  I think she was simply introduced without introduction, in a kinda [Kosh] "She has always been here." [/Kosh] fashion.

-Tiberius


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## Negative Zero (Apr 18, 2003)

nah, i'm pretty sure they said that she was with her dad this whole time. altho there were various references to her doing stuff with the "family" when they were little. i think there were pictures too.

~NegZ


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## DanMcS (Apr 18, 2003)

She wasn't in Sunnydale before she arrived on the show because she didn't exist.    The history the monks ginned up had her living with her mom and Buffy the whole time, though.  She knew Angel even though he had departed two seasons previously, and apparently knows Faith too.


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## Negative Zero (Apr 18, 2003)

er ... i dunno about that. i'm pretty sure that she was with dad, but since i can't prove it ... *shrug* but i will say this; "knowing of" and "knowing" aren't the sane thing. Angel and Faith "knew of" Dawn. i don't think we've seen any proof that they "knew" her.

~NegZ


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## ToddSchumacher (Apr 18, 2003)

I seem to recall that for the animated serise, they were going to do but no longer are, it was going to be set that first year Buffy came to Sunnydale. They would tell all the stories they didn't have time to the first time around. 

One of the things they looked forward to was all the stories involving Dawn. 

So Ya, according to the 'new' history, Dawn was with them (Buffy and Mom) from the beginning.


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## dreaded_beast (Apr 20, 2003)

in regards to xander losing his eye and being "the one who sees":

remember when buffy was stilling dating riley and then riley left buffy to go hunt demons in the amazon. riley was going to leave and buffy was just going to let him go and then xander was saying that why don't you go after him and something along the lines of "you don't think i see what is going on? i see everything"


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## DanMcS (Apr 20, 2003)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> *Angel and Faith "knew of" Dawn. i don't think we've seen any proof that they "knew" her.*




Faith, in the latest episode, said "Hey look, the brat's all woman-sized."  And Angelus, when he called sunnydale to see which slayer was after him, said "Hey dawn, is your sister there?"  So he had at least spoken to her, I guess.


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## Staffan (Apr 20, 2003)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Faith, in the latest episode, said "Hey look, the brat's all woman-sized."  And Angelus, when he called sunnydale to see which slayer was after him, said "Hey dawn, is your sister there?"  So he had at least spoken to her, I guess. *



While I think the monks remade the entire world to cover the appearance of Dawn, one could also make the case that they somehow made a kind of perimeter around Sunnydale that would change those that entered it. Angel came to Sunnydale for Joyce's funeral and could have been affected then.

Though come to think of it, didn't Dawn talk to her dad on the phone when Buffy was dead? I'm pretty sure he hasn't been to Sunnydale since season 1 or something like that...


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## WizarDru (Apr 20, 2003)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> * riley was going to leave and buffy was just going to let him go and then xander was saying that why don't you go after him and something along the lines of "you don't think i see what is going on? i see everything" *




A little earlier than that, as they were all helping Xander move out of the basement, Riley spent a good two minutes describing how wonderful being with Buffy made him feel...and then confided in Xander that she didn't love him.

Xander has always been the one with perspective, who sees what the others don't...often because he IS the normal one.

And yes, when Buffy was dead, her dad did call, checking in on Dawn's status.  It was made pretty clear that they needed to maintain the fiction of Buffy being alive, or Dawn would be relocated...although one has to wonder if leaving Sunnydale would be such a bad thing.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Apr 20, 2003)

Fighting demons and monsters on the one hand, and living with a father that doesn`t really care about his children on the other hand - I think the choice is obvious - Demons all the time 

Mustrum Ridcully


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## Lucius Foxhound (Apr 21, 2003)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *So Caleb says "You're the one that sees.  Let's see what we can do about that."
> 
> That was a conversation that Xander and Dawn had privately.  Has the First been watching everyone the whole time?  I guess so.*




Wait... I can't remember this.  What conversation did Xander and Dawn have about "seeing"?


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## Staffan (Apr 21, 2003)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> *Fighting demons and monsters on the one hand, and living with a father that doesn`t really care about his children on the other hand - I think the choice is obvious - Demons all the time
> *



I think the issue was more that Dawn might still be a target, and Hank Summers (probably) doesn't have what it takes to protect her.


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## Merlion (Apr 21, 2003)

Lucius Foxhound said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wait... I can't remember this.  What conversation did Xander and Dawn have about "seeing"? *




I believe it was after Dawn seemed to be a Potential and then turned out not to be. He told her about how he sees everything about everyones relationships and emotions and feelings


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## dravot (Apr 21, 2003)

Lucius Foxhound said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wait... I can't remember this.  What conversation did Xander and Dawn have about "seeing"? *




The episode where Dawn thinks that she's a potential slayer, and then finds out that it was Amanda, not her.

Xander talks to Dawn, saying about how hard it is to be normal and non-powery, and that he watches Dawn struggle with it, etc.


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## Negative Zero (Apr 21, 2003)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> *Faith, in the latest episode, said "Hey look, the brat's all woman-sized."  And Angelus, when he called sunnydale to see which slayer was after him, said "Hey dawn, is your sister there?"  So he had at least spoken to her, I guess. *




ok, so Faith wanted to throw a verbal jab at Dawn. it doesn't take any great feat of intelligence to know that Dawn is young and that young humans start out small. no big deal there. and so Angel spoke to her over the phone. you've never spoken to someone you know of but never met, when calling a friend's house? again, nothing that proves they know her.



			
				Staffan said:
			
		

> *
> While I think the monks remade the entire world to cover the appearance of Dawn, one could also make the case that they somehow made a kind of perimeter around Sunnydale that would change those that entered it. ... *




or they could simply have affected those who would have konwn about Dawn. anyone else could have been taken care of with a "yeah, that's my sister/daughter." really would you be able to tell some woman that the kid she's claiming isn't hers when she "knows!" that she is?

~NegZ


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## dreaded_beast (Apr 22, 2003)

this has been bugging me...

if the First really wanted all the Potentials dead, why doesn't he just hire someone to go all kamikaze and run in their with a body bomb?

i mean, he knows where buffy lives and all. and all the Potentials are there. why doesn't he just get one of his lackey to get a bazooka, missile launcher, or whatever and just blow her friggin house up!


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## John Crichton (Apr 22, 2003)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> *this has been bugging me...
> 
> if the First really wanted all the Potentials dead, why doesn't he just hire someone to go all kamikaze and run in their with a body bomb?
> 
> i mean, he knows where buffy lives and all. and all the Potentials are there. why doesn't he just get one of his lackey to get a bazooka, missile launcher, or whatever and just blow her friggin house up! *



Hmmm...

1.)  It's not The First's style.

2.)  It's not fair.

3.)  The First doesn't just want to hurt the Scoobs.  It wants to make them suffer.

4.)  Have you ever tried running down the street with a bomb and get into someone's house?  It's not as easy as it seems.  

5.)  Willow, by now, would see it coming.

6.)  Missle lanchers only do 5d6 damage to Slayers which isn't nearly enough to kill them.

7.)  Pontentials are wiley like Looney Tunes.  Nyuck nyuck.


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## DM_Matt (Apr 22, 2003)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> *this has been bugging me...
> 
> if the First really wanted all the Potentials dead, why doesn't he just hire someone to go all kamikaze and run in their with a body bomb?
> 
> i mean, he knows where buffy lives and all. and all the Potentials are there. why doesn't he just get one of his lackey to get a bazooka, missile launcher, or whatever and just blow her friggin house up! *




You could use that arguement the opposite way:  Since Buffy now seems to both be able to contact the Initiative and is again in good stead there, why not just report the farmhouse where the bringers are based along with Caleb and have 'em come blow it up.

The real reason is that it is not the shows style to use extreme military-style violence unless there is a very good reason, and ether of those uses would not be a challenge.  Going deeper, it could be said that using massive force and big explosions is too "masculine" for the theme of theshow (I personally couldn't care less about the grl power msg, but the writers do).


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## WizarDru (Apr 22, 2003)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> *The real reason is that it is not the shows style to use extreme military-style violence unless there is a very good reason, and ether of those uses would not be a challenge.  Going deeper, it could be said that using massive force and big explosions is too "masculine" for the theme of theshow (I personally couldn't care less about the grl power msg, but the writers do). *




Or, you could drop the sexual politics angle, and look at it from a purely pragmatic storytelling position: it's not good storytelling, period.  There would be little entertainment value out of having Buffy call the Initiative (or whatever it calls itself these days) and drop a pony nuke on the farmhouse.  It would not only defeat the purpose of the story, it would be terribly unsatisfying, not fit the mileu and introduce a host of production issues.

As for specific reasons, there are tons:

Why doesn't the First just bomb Buffy & the Potentials?



It can't DO anything, per se.  It can threaten, cajole and terrify, but at the end of the day, it needs to convince others to do it's bidding.  CALEB blew up the watchers at the First's behest.
All of the agents that the First has are all patently crazy and obviously not terribly reliable.  Caleb destroyed the watcher headquarters months ago, but only just now got to Sunnydale...and he didn't destroy all the watchers, just most of them.
As John Crichton mentioned, the First Evil wants suffering and pain inflicted on his enemies.  Caleb could have done more physical damage, but he's a psychopath, not just a killer.  He resembles his mistress.
The First is somehow tied up with the Slayer and the potentials, and killing them directly may not be an option.  Especially since it's obvious that both groups haven't found them all, yet.  The First may be waiting until they're all gathered together, and then will kill them all en masse.
It's not nearly as easy to come at the scoobs as it appears...Warren notwithstanding.  The slayer alone has been killed...but keeping her dead isn't nearly as easy.  

So why not doesn't Buffy have the Initiative bomb the Winery?

Buffy has already pulled in one minor favor, and it's questionable that the Initiative is willing to help a second time
If they WERE to bomb the winery, there's no guarantee that they'd actually get anyone.  It was a pretty obvious trap, from start to finish.  The bringers let themselves be followed, so that Caleb could wail on the scoobs, bigtime.
Even if they killed every single servant of the First, that wouldn't bother it in the least
The initiative has, itself, shown that the solution can be as bad as the problem.
Conventional weapons have rarely worked against demons or their ilk.  Note how the initiative themselves used some freaky 'ghost-busting' equipment to deal even with common vamps, let alone the weirder varieties.  It's just the way the Buffyverse works.


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## dreaded_beast (Apr 22, 2003)

good points on the initiative. i forgot that the military has already tried to become involved. that was another question that was bugging me. if the world was filled with all sorts of supernatural baddies, wouldn't the military know of it and try to do something to combat it? and what do you know, there was a whole season with the military as a pseudo-bad-guy.

here is a question that my girlfriend brought up while we were watching the show. isn't it kinda strange how there all this weirdness going on around the summers residence? what do the neighbors think?

my question is that after the winery fight and everyone is in the hospital, who is paying for their medical care? i can assume that xander probably has health insurance, but what about the other girls?

i know this is nitpicky and i try not to worry about this like this in order to enjoy buffy, other shows, movies, etc. however, it would be cool if things like this could be explained within the story.

it's all about consistancy (don't know if this is the right word to use, heh)


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## myrdden (Apr 22, 2003)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> *here is a question that my girlfriend brought up while we were watching the show. isn't it kinda strange how there all this weirdness going on around the summers residence? what do the neighbors think?
> *




It has been stated in episodes past that Sunnydale has a reputation for "wierd things" going on.  People either don't question it or chalk it up to stange Urbane Myths.  I believe it was also mentioned last episode that people were leaving Sunnydale in droves after the riot/whatever happened in the school. 

Myrdden


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## Kid Charlemagne (Apr 22, 2003)

"And this year, thanks to Buffy Summers, Sunnydale high had its lowest mortality rate in recent memory!"

Or words to that effect, from _The Prom_, IIRC.

People in Sunnydale have a pretty good idea what goes on in their town, I think.  It's not dwelled on, but there's a lot there to back up the idea that its not all that much of a secret.

Principal Snyder in season two had a standard answer to any wierd questions: "PCP, street gangs" I think it was.  In Spike's first or second episode it became pretty clear that Snyder knew what was going on, to at least some extent.  

"She says she'll speak to the Mayor if she has to."  

"Wouldn't that be interesting."


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## Merlion (Apr 22, 2003)

And as for who is paying the medical bills the first thing to spring to mind would be Giles, and/or Watcher Council money...most or all of them may be dead but Giles may still be able to access their resources. And its been intimated that Giles has a bit of a stash himself.
  Plus theres that Coven in England..
And I dont think bombing the servants of the first would be very helpful simply becase as has already said it wouldnt care much and would simply replace them or maybe in the case of someone like Caleb, the First would just zap him out if he was in danger from something like that.
  Also I tend to think that their are underlying supernatural "rules" the first is operating under.


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## Jemal (Apr 23, 2003)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> *ARRRRGHHHH!
> 
> I turn on the local UPN station after looking forward to the new Buffy & Faith episode and what do I get - the 7th Inning of the Red Sox/Tampa Bay Game!   #*@$!# sports station!   Wish they'd stayed on WB. *




f*ck man, I know what you're saying, Same thing happened to me, and I missed yesterdays episode b/c I was out for a few days.. I don't even know if it was new...
So, anyone know if April 22 was new?  I couldn't find anything on it on Google, so I turn to my ever-present buddies here...

Help me, ENWorld posters, you're my only hope.


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## Jemal (Apr 23, 2003)

n/m my question, I've really gotta learn to read the thread before posting silly questions... *L*  Apparently it WAS a rerun yesterday so I didn't miss anything.  thx peeps.


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## Sen Udo-Mal (Apr 23, 2003)

You didn't miss anything but there was a trailer for next week... looks... good


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## WizarDru (Apr 23, 2003)

Merlion said:
			
		

> *And as for who is paying the medical bills the first thing to spring to mind would be Giles, and/or Watcher Council money...most or all of them may be dead but Giles may still be able to access their resources. And its been intimated that Giles has a bit of a stash himself. *




Well, to get in the hospital, insurance isn't a question.  Emergency care is provided, and YOU are paying for anyone who isn't insured.  It's a safety net to make sure that critical patients get treated.  When someone is wheeled in from a car accident with no identification, they wait until later to try and figure out who pays the bill.

As to who eventually will, Xander is surely covered from work.  Buffy most likely still has coverage.  Willow would either be covered by her parents or as part of a school coverage (although this is less common these days), and any number of examples could be throught of for the rest.  The Watchers is a pretty good possibility, even though they themselves are all no longer a going concern.


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## dreaded_beast (Apr 24, 2003)

i like the whole idea of giles' "inheriting" whatever is left of the the watcher council's "fortune". it seems to make the most sense to me.

in regards to buffy's neighbors, i was thinking more along the lines of her immediate neighbors, as in the houses next door. i wonder what the occupants must think, if buffy knows them personally, or if they are even occupied.

imagine if you were buffy summer's next door neighbor. i'm surprised that no one called the cops on spike for always hanging arounded the neighborhood at night during the past seasons. seems like stalker material to me. and for this season, i wonder if the neighbors think it is weird having an army of girls dooing martial arts and gymnastics in the backyard.

on the subject of the girls (the potentials), i'm wondering about the rest of their families. i'm assuming the bringers probably killed off their immediate families, like mom, dad, brother, sister, but what about uncles, cousin, etc. wouldn't they wonder where the girls are at?


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## Negative Zero (Apr 24, 2003)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> *... i wonder if the neighbors think it is weird having an army of girls dooing martial arts and gymnastics in the backyard. ...*




the neighbours probly just think that since mom died, buffy started a sorority or somesuch. or they're saying stuff like "since Joyce died, those girls are just running amok!"  but what with this being Sunnydale, they're not about to stick their noses where they don't need to 

~NegZ


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