# Lost



## Crothian (Sep 23, 2004)

Loud noises, a bit of a jerky camera at times, and little set up.  I'm not sure what to make of it as it was a lot of smoke but litle substance.  The creature that knocks down trees, stays hidden but is larger then the front of a plane, and for some reason refuses to come on a beach or eat its kills.  It just didn't grab me that much and seemed like it was intentionally showing little just to drag it out.   :\


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## TiQuinn (Sep 23, 2004)

I dug it.  It's already created a lot of suspense, even besides the dinosaur/monster/whatever it is that's in the jungle.  I got the distinct impression that a lot of things were happening on the plane before it crashed, and will probably be laid out for us as the show progresses.  It did a good job introducing the various characters for such a large ensemble cast.  I think I'm hooked.


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2004)

It did create a lot of suspense, and I'll tune in next week.  It was the first half of a two part opener and really felt like it.  I just wanted a little more.


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## Piratecat (Sep 23, 2004)

I really liked it. The network executives should be drawn and quartered for cutting the 2-hour episode into 2 weeks, though, just so we can see "The Bachelor."  Bleck.

Lots of good plot setup. A fat gamer type who's kind, and helpful, and not necessarily there for comic relief. In fact, most of the people felt like just that - people - which is a nice change from most shows.


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2004)

That is a good point about the people.  It was not a collection of cliches, and that does speak well for the show.


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## stevelabny (Sep 23, 2004)

The shaky camera has to go.
And this definitely felt liek 1/2 a pilot as some characters were more fleshed out than others.
I'm telling you...there's not just dinosaurs...there's Sleestaks too.
Just wait.
With what little background we have, the characters seem pretty straight forward and their "secrets" are probably pretty obvious.
Except for which one if behind the crash.


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## CrusaderX (Sep 23, 2004)

I enjoyed it.  I'll tune in next week.

But what's up with the dog?  Was it on the airplane too?  They focused on the pooch too much for it to be irrelevant.


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2004)

What's a Sleestaks?

The dog, in an unexpected twist mid season, will be revealed to be the mastermind behind getting the plane to crash on his....yes the dog's personal island.  The dog needs to feed his "pets".


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## Andrew D. Gable (Sep 23, 2004)

Sleestaks were on the old animatronic show Land of the Lost.  They were some sort of weird highly-evolved dinosaur/lizardman chupacabras-lookin things.


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## stevelabny (Sep 23, 2004)

A Sleestak is a lizardman type creature from the old TV show Land of the Lost. http://www.geocities.com/tharyett/sleestak.html The similarity in titles has led me to fantasize that both dinosaurs and sleestaks live on this island.

I also forgot to mention that I already have a theory about Vincent, the dog. He is acting weird. Just staring at people and stuff. He doesn't look rabid...but he does look odd. The old man with the scarred eye is also acting very strange. When he smiled at Kate, he seemed to have an orange of some sort in his mouth, and by my reasoning, the dog would have been the first to eat any native "food". So my theory is that some of the food on the planet has some sort of cooties that will negatively affect your mind.

Or maybe I'm just insane.


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## John Crichton (Sep 23, 2004)

That was one awesome hour of TV.  Kicked me right in the junk and kept on coming.

Of course, being a fan of Abrams past shows it's no surprise that I would like this one.  I'm really looking forward to watching the full pilot to compare it to one of the best pilots ever (Alias).  This is really the only new show of the fall season that I was looking forward to and it delivered. Big time.

The show has a "The Stand" feel to it that I think I read an article about a little while back.  Next week can't get here soon enough.


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## valn (Sep 23, 2004)

Hi!

The shaky camera also annoyed me!!! Specially as they were climbing to the cockpit!

I'm not sure I like the whole dinosaur/whatever-that-might-be hiding in the jungle, but I'll wait and see.

Anyone else had flash-backs from LotR when the camera showed Dominic Monaghan and the other two characters walking from left to right through the grass?   (okay, probably just me...)

There are certainly enough characters (48?) on the island to keep things interesting (unless they are meant as monster-fodder?).

Besides the cliché "_help me, we're being chased by a horrible monster and my foot is stuck_", I enjoyed the show and will be watching it next week.


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## jasper (Sep 23, 2004)

OK you guys win. I wasn't going to watch the show. Now I will give a shot.


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## Enforcer (Sep 23, 2004)

I missed the first 15 minutes (was playing KOTOR on the Xbox and didn't check the clock) but enjoyed the rest. The monster is pretty creepy...as I imagine an invisible monster would be. 

I was disappointed that the 



Spoiler



pilot got killed, however, I really like that guy from Alias.


 Oh well, I still thought it was good.

The guy pulling the Marlon Brando impression (with the orange in his mouth)...did he show any mental problems in the first 15 minutes or was that just totally random? And is it just me, or does that actor lend the show a definite conspiracy factor simply because of his roles on both the X-Files and Millenium? That's what I thought anyways.

By the way, when does Alias start?


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## Henry (Sep 23, 2004)

I watched a few minutes, in between Smallville commercials. It's interesting, but if they want me they're going to have to put it on another night or timeslot. Wednesdays it's butting with my Smallville, and I'm still digging it.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Sep 23, 2004)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> The guy pulling the Marlon Brando impression (with the orange in his mouth)...did he show any mental problems in the first 15 minutes or was that just totally random?




He didn't have any lines at all in the episode - the only scene with him you might have missed is him sitting off by himself, looking out at the ocean.  He seems just detached - it could be stress induced, it could be he's nuts.  Hard to say at this point.


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## John Crichton (Sep 23, 2004)

Enforcer said:
			
		

> By the way, when does Alias start?



January 2005.


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## Piratecat (Sep 23, 2004)

Vincent the dog belonged to the man and his son, the kid who correctly spelled "bodies." It's definitely not acting normal, though.

Based on the preview for next week, there's 



Spoiler



definitely intelligent life on the island.


 That ought to make things a lot more interesting.

I'm really curious how long they can keep up the big-ass unseen monster without it getting annoying. Probably not too long. Whatever that thing was, it didn't especially eat that one guy, just sort of gummed him and spit him out with no skin.

I thought the plane flashbacks were scary as hell. Very nicely done.


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## Klaus (Sep 23, 2004)

While "Lost" is still a looooooooooooooo(...)oooooooong way from airing down here, from what I've heard of the series, I think stevelabny has the most interesting take on it...

Ssleesstaaaaaaaaks!


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## Reynard (Sep 23, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> I watched a few minutes, in between Smallville commercials. It's interesting, but if they want me they're going to have to put it on another night or timeslot. Wednesdays it's butting with my Smallville, and I'm still digging it.




All your worries will wash away if you just join the cult: get a TiVo.

God I love that thing.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Sep 23, 2004)

A few years ago, there was a TV pilot for a show that was never made. I mean the pilot was made but it never turned into a TV. Not that the network aired a pilot that had never been made.

In any event, it featured a bunch of people who did not get along very well, and all of whom had secrets, marooned on an island. I forget if it was a plane crash or a shipwreck.

So on the island some of them are killed by mysterious things in the jungle – naturally the island was large and mostly covered in dense jungle.

The survivors discover an abandoned and ruined laboratory complex on the island that apparently was into genetic experimentation and the nasties they made revolted killed (and ate) the scientists and then fled into the jungle.

And the marooned people were stuck on this island with the monsters but without a convent coffee shop.

But it never got made into a show. The pilot/movie airs every now and then on ScFi.

I don’t think the creators of “Lost” stole this idea. The idea of being marooned someplace far from home with monsters is fairly classic. But it interesting that in the decade or so since that other pilot was made, society has shifted just enough to give a show like this a reasonable chance.


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## Pyrex (Sep 23, 2004)

Despite the cheese, the first ep was entertaining.  I'll definately watch for at least the next couple of weeks.

Although, I have to admit, watching my GF watch was even more entertaining.

Consider your reactions when you see computers misused in movies.

My GF works for Boeing.


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## DungeonmasterCal (Sep 23, 2004)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> I'm telling you...there's not just dinosaurs...there's Sleestaks too.
> Just wait.




I didn't watch it...but by golly, if there are Sleestacks in it, I'll watch it!

"Marshall, Will, and Holly-on a routine expedition.........."

Good times, good times.


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## cybertalus (Sep 23, 2004)

That's the second show on ABC this week that has left me disappointed (NYPD Blue's season open was the other).  I'll give Lost another episode, maybe two, but if it doesn't get better quickly I'm gonna drop it.


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## Crothian (Sep 23, 2004)

Why didn't ou like it?


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## cybertalus (Sep 24, 2004)

The short answer is that it didn't seem to be what I expected after watching the promos.  

The promos came across as more of a drama about the people with a monster / mystery thrown in to mix it up.  The episode I saw seemed to play up more of the mystery and the monster than the human drama side of it.

Worse, I found I didn'tmuch care what happened to any of the characters.  I didn't expect to be deeply engrossed in their plight from the second they appeared on screen, but when the hour was over and I still didn't care....


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## Mark (Sep 24, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> The network executives should be drawn and quartered for cutting the 2-hour episode into 2 weeks, though, just so we can see "The Bachelor."




Yup.  (Does this require _any_ rationalizing...?)



			
				valn said:
			
		

> The shaky camera also annoyed me!!! Specially as they were climbing to the cockpit!
> 
> I'm not sure I like the whole dinosaur/whatever-that-might-be hiding in the jungle, but I'll wait and see.
> 
> ...




Yup.  Yup.  Yup.  Yup. (and)  Yup.  




			
				dungeonmastercal said:
			
		

> "Marshall, Will, and Holly-on a routine expedition.........."




...Met the greatest earthquake ever known. 
High on the rapids 
It struck their tiny raft. 
And plunged them down a thousand feet below. 

To the Land of the Lost. 
To the Land of the Lost. 
To the Land of the Lost....


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## Piratecat (Sep 24, 2004)

Just remember, it was Monet Cook who painted "Sleestaks at Giverney." Sleestaks with haystacks!


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## Crothian (Sep 24, 2004)

was it Monet Cook or Monte Cook???


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## Fast Learner (Sep 24, 2004)

Damn that's cool, excellent Photoshop work. And I love the play on "Monet"! Did Sue do the work?

More here: http://www.montecook.com/monet_le_stuff.html


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## MEG Hal (Sep 24, 2004)

Watched it last night...now that I know it was a 2 hr episode split I will watch a few more episodes, I keep thinking Firefly (so giving shows a chance) got screwed by execs so maybe this one did also.

It was for me, a combo of Jurassic Park meets Survivor and I do not know how I feel about that yet.


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## Rugger (Sep 24, 2004)

Reynard said:
			
		

> All your worries will wash away if you just join the cult: get a TiVo.
> 
> God I love that thing.





We are officially gonna watch Lost and Tivo Smallville...we LOVED that first episode of Lost.  

Like PC said, the characters felt like real people, and the mystery has us hooked!

-Rugger


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## WizarDru (Sep 24, 2004)

Earned itself a spot on my Tivo's Season Pass List.

Missed the first fifteen minutes, but I'm liking what I see.  I wondered why it seemed...abbreviated.  I admit, the minute I saw trees falling and the whole assembled group starting in disbelief...I knew it had potential.

I'm guessing two major things are about to happen: the inevitable Lord of the Flies fracturing, and the equally inevitable 'thinning of the herd'.  They could take this is in several different directions, and I'm eager to see which ones.

There's an anime series called Infinite Ryvius, which is more like Lord of the Flies meets Gundam , but one of the most interesting concepts is that of the power of the SINGLE GUN.  Namely, in the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king...and it looks like that they'll deal with that next week.  Very interesting.


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## DeBhaal (Sep 24, 2004)

Did anyone else stop to wonder why that monster or whatever was knocking down all the trees as it moved? Was it a 'Welcome to the Beach" type thing ... or does it always do that? 

'Cause if it does ... why are there still trees standing?


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## Werdnam (Sep 24, 2004)

DeBhaal said:
			
		

> 'Cause if it does ... why are there still trees standing?




Ha!  That was _exactly_ my thought.  But then, I try to turn off that little voice in my head when I am otherwise enjoying a show -- I don't want that voice to ruin it for me.


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## Crothian (Sep 24, 2004)

DeBhaal said:
			
		

> Did anyone else stop to wonder why that monster or whatever was knocking down all the trees as it moved? Was it a 'Welcome to the Beach" type thing ... or does it always do that?
> 
> 'Cause if it does ... why are there still trees standing?




My thought was "Well, it sure isn't very slealthy, how does it catch prey?"


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## John Crichton (Sep 25, 2004)

Okay, I just caught part 2. Hot damn. I do wish that they didn't brake the eps up because they work better as a whole. However, they still work apart. The nature of the show and the timeline lends itself well to breaking the story up into 45 minute segments. It works either way.  This is another series that will really benefit from the DVD format when all is said and done.  The "tune in next week" factor is also very high.

I refuse to give any spoilers but lets say there are no more answers given about what the heck is going on but we do learn some really interesting things about characters focused on in the first ep. My fave - Kate. You'll see why.


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## Krieg (Sep 25, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> My thought was "Well, it sure isn't very slealthy, how does it catch prey?"



Because it is a scavenger?

Dead prey doesnt spook easily.


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## Elephant (Sep 25, 2004)

Or, if it were produced on the Internet, it would be called:



 "Loost"


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## John Crichton (Sep 25, 2004)

Elephant said:
			
		

> Or, if it were produced on the Internet, it would be called:
> 
> 
> 
> "Loost"



 *scratches head*

I don't get it.


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## Steverooo (Sep 25, 2004)

*It's An Old Story*



			
				The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> A few years ago, there was a TV pilot for a show that was never made. I mean the pilot was made but it never turned into a TV. Not that the network aired a pilot that had never been made.
> 
> In any event, it featured a bunch of people who did not get along very well, and all of whom had secrets, marooned on an island. I forget if it was a plane crash or a shipwreck.
> 
> ...




The Killer Shrews, circa 1950-60, starring James Best and Inga Gouda (Miss Universe 1957) had much the same plot.  Skipper and mate delivering supplies to an island just before a hurricane meet doctor and assisstants who have increased the size of shrews.  They've escaped and eaten everything else on the island, and the scientists hope they'll quickly starve and die out.  Instead, they start eating the scientists.  Once the hurricane blows over, the "good guys" escape by crawling inside inverted oil drums attached together...

Y'see, the bite of a killer shrew is deadly poisonous.  I kinda doubt that this one will be quite as bad.  At least it's in color!


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## Maxwell's Demon (Sep 25, 2004)

A retooled "Gilligan's Island" as seen by the Brothers Grimm.  It could be much worse.  It's on my TiVo list.


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## Krieg (Sep 25, 2004)

Maxwell's Demon said:
			
		

> A retooled "Gilligan's Island" as seen by the Brothers Grimm.



Well crap, that actually makes it sound far more interesting than the commercials I've seen thus far...

I'm going to have to yoink that to use as an idea in my Grimm/Cthulhu Dreamlands game...hmm.


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## dreaded_beast (Sep 25, 2004)

I only caught the first 15 minutes, since I was heading out the door to my DND game, hehe. Every Wednesday night.

Anyways, I dug it and told my GF to record it so I can watch it later. We thought it was amusing however since it is shot in Hawaii and that is where we happen to live. We were trying to guess what parts of the island the different scenes were at. The beach looked familiar, but then again almost every beach in Hawaii looks like that. (I could be biased though since I'm not really into beaches )


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## Fast Learner (Sep 25, 2004)

Elephant said:
			
		

> Or, if it were produced on the Internet, it would be called:
> 
> 
> 
> "Loost"



LMAO!!!


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## Keeper of Secrets (Sep 26, 2004)

I suspect we will all be pleasently suprised.  J.J. Abrams is the director (Alias) and he clearled used some of the same actors (Kendall from Alias was the guy with the orange in his mouth and the pilot was Weiss).

My guess is that if Abrams is at the helm there will be some psuedo-science so that the idea of weird experiements may not be far off the mark of possibility.  I was talking it over with someone and I thought that the execs may have been concerned about letting possible viewers think it has a sci-fi/fantasy twist to to, afterall there are many who do not like that kind of thing.  Instead, focus on the disaster part, suck in the audience, and then throw out your sci fi stuff.


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## Crothian (Sep 26, 2004)

Is he directing or writing?  As a director he won't have a lot of say in the plots and the sets ups


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## Dreeble (Sep 26, 2004)

Heya:

 Bill Laimbeer was a basketball player (for the Detroit Pistons, right?) who was known as a dirty player.  Michael Jordan once said he wouldn't play golf with Laimbeer because he'd be afraid he'd get fouled going to the hole.  Laimbeer played one of the Sleestaks.  I just learned this a couple of months ago.  Woo.

 Random musings:  My guess: Robodino.  Those sounds seem mechanical.  Another guess: The dog will be an "angel".  I agree with somebody above that the guy from X-Files/Millenium is there _because_ he was on X-Files and Millenium.   The "thinning of the herd" won't be fast or complete.  The red shirts need to be made to last, I think.

Take care,
Dreeble


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## John Crichton (Sep 26, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Is he directing or writing? As a director he won't have a lot of say in the plots and the sets ups



He did both for the pilot. And as creator/producer he has the most say about the direction of the plots/writing.


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## Keeper of Secrets (Sep 26, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> He did both for the pilot. And as creator/producer he has the most say about the direction of the plots/writing.




Thank goodness.  This means I have high hopes about the program.


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## Negative Zero (Sep 27, 2004)

just so you know, if you haven't seen the episode yet, this post will spoil it for you ...

awesome show! the wife and i loved it. i thought it was one of the better pilots i've seen. pilots are always tricky, coz the writers, directors and actors haven't really figured out the characters yet and what works well on screen. still, i felt it was really well done. then again, for 10 mil, it had better be! 

i guess i'm weird coz i didn't think there was anything amiss with the scarred-eye-orange-peel guy. he tried to inject some levity into a dismal situation, and sat out in the rain while everyone else ran for cover. i'd have likely done the same things myslef in that situation, i love the rain!  although i do conceed that he does seem to be written like the obvious scapegoat for suspicion. all the more reason for him to be innocent of any weirdness. *shrug* we'll see, i guess.

something's deffinitely up with the dog. i like Steve's "island food" idea. as for the creature, i don't think it's what it looks like. i.e. big carnivorous meanie. i think there is sentient intelligent life on the island and something or someone is causing people's fear to be made manifest.

after the first "appearance," the survivors couldn't seem to agree on what the "creature" actually sounded like. the only hint we got was the one lady who lived in the Bronx saying it sounded familiar. it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to assume it sounded like a subway to her. (mechanical, like Dreeble<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_1775972", true); </SCRIPT> said. oh and yeah, Laimbeer did play for the Pistons. man that was an awesome team!)

after the attack on the cockpit, the creature seemed to disappear shortly after Kate did her imitation of Jack and counted to 5 to get rid of her fear. the hole in the argument of course, is the fact that the pilot got killed while standing up through the broken cockpit window, seemingly unafraid of whatever was out there. ... though Charlie and Kate might have had enough fear for all.

also, and i'm not saying it necessarily ties into the the manifestation of fear thing (... though it might), the "creature" only seems to come out at night (... does that make it a freak?  Whodini would be proud) or at least in the absence of the sun. Charlie specifically called the change in weather "day turning to night." but in any event, i think there is something/one causing it. dunno yet if it's deliberate or if s/he/it doens't know it's doing it.

there's also deffinitely something up with Charlie. at the very least, he's on drugs, though i dounbt it's as mundane as that. during the flight flashback, he ran past Jack toward the cockpit (we assume the bathroom, coz the black lady makes a comment about him needing to go), _and_ he was being chased by two flight attendants at the time. the crash happened shortly thereafter, so we might assume that they wanted him to go back to his seat, but why would they need two of them for that?

also, he was determined to go with Kate and Jack after Jack announced he was going out to find the cockpit. and when they got there, he promptly disappeared into the bathroom. Kate questiones him about it and he guiltily goes: "What?" in a transparent attempt to deflect the question, and then the "creature" attacks ...

hold up, i just thought a think ... maybe Charlie's doing it all. as i just said, the tail of the palne got ripped off, _right after_ Charlie ran to the bathroom chased by two flight attendants, perhaps an attack by the "creature," and then it attacked again right after he got questioned about what he was doing in the bathroom. ... hmmm ... must rewatch! 

i'm very curious to see what's going to happen to the young girl and her now dead baby. lots of potential there, i think.



			
				Keeper of Secrets said:
			
		

> My guess is that if Abrams is at the helm there will be some psuedo-science so that the idea of weird experiements may not be far off the mark of possibility.



i'm not so sure, before Alias, Abrams did ... Felicity was it? a _VERY _different show. i'm hoping that he's going to venture into new territory again. like PC said though, the invisible monster could get old fast, but then Abrams has shown that he knows how to flip a story on its end and chage it around completely without changing it's essence, in order to keep it interesting. i have high hopes.

the only thing i really didn't like (other than the shaky cam, which i didn't think was all that bad) was that i felt like Jack seemed like too much of a super hero. he was so immediately good at everything. which is weird coz i've always tended to prefer superman types to spiderman/batman types. i guess i must be growing up 

one final thing. a friend of mine mentioned that he'd read a spoiler tip that indicted that one of the people on the island 



Spoiler



*was not on the plane*


!!! *dum dum DUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.....*

~NegZ


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## John Crichton (Sep 27, 2004)

*I'll warn in advance that I have seen the 2nd ep and I make comments as such but there are no spoilers involved in what I have to say.  But if you would rather not hear/read anything in advance then kindly skip my post.  *



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> something's deffinitely up with the dog. i like Steve's "island food" idea. as for the creature, i don't think it's what it looks like. i.e. big carnivorous meanie. i think there is sentient intelligent life on the island and something or someone is causing people's fear to be made manifest.



Hmm...



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> after the first "appearance," the survivors couldn't seem to agree on what the "creature" actually sounded like. the only hint we got was the one lady who lived in the Bronx saying it sounded familiar. it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to assume it sounded like a subway to her. (mechanical, like Dreeble<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_1775972", true); </SCRIPT> said. oh and yeah, Laimbeer did play for the Pistons. man that was an awesome team!)
> 
> after the attack on the cockpit, the creature seemed to disappear shortly after Kate did her imitation of Jack and counted to 5 to get rid of her fear. the hole in the argument of course, is the fact that the pilot got killed while standing up through the broken cockpit window, seemingly unafraid of whatever was out there. ... though Charlie and Kate might have had enough fear for all.
> 
> also, and i'm not saying it necessarily ties into the the manifestation of fear thing (... though it might), the "creature" only seems to come out at night (... does that make it a freak?  Whodini would be proud) or at least in the absence of the sun. Charlie specifically called the change in weather "day turning to night." but in any event, i think there is something/one causing it. dunno yet if it's deliberate or if s/he/it doens't know it's doing it.



Interesting theory.  I hadn't thought about that.  The second ep will certain cause similar thought patterns.



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> there's also deffinitely something up with Charlie. at the very least, he's on drugs, though i dounbt it's as mundane as that. during the flight flashback, he ran past Jack toward the cockpit (we assume the bathroom, coz the black lady makes a comment about him needing to go), _and_ he was being chased by two flight attendants at the time. the crash happened shortly thereafter, so we might assume that they wanted him to go back to his seat, but why would they need two of them for that?
> 
> also, he was determined to go with Kate and Jack after Jack announced he was going out to find the cockpit. and when they got there, he promptly disappeared into the bathroom. Kate questiones him about it and he guiltily goes: "What?" in a transparent attempt to deflect the question, and then the "creature" attacks ...
> 
> hold up, i just thought a think ... maybe Charlie's doing it all. as i just said, the tail of the palne got ripped off, _right after_ Charlie ran to the bathroom chased by two flight attendants, perhaps an attack by the "creature," and then it attacked again right after he got questioned about what he was doing in the bathroom. ... hmmm ... must rewatch!



Something is definately up with Charlie.  But then again there is something up with all of them.  Stay tuned.  This is really the true beauty of the show, IMO.  That and the story in general.  But the characters and their assorted pasts are driving the car right now.



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> i'm very curious to see what's going to happen to the young girl and her now dead baby. lots of potential there, i think.



They do address this in ep 2 but not as much as I would have liked.



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> i'm not so sure, before Alias, Abrams did ... Felicity was it? a _VERY _different show. i'm hoping that he's going to venture into new territory again. like PC said though, the invisible monster could get old fast, but then Abrams has shown that he knows how to flip a story on its end and chage it around completely without changing it's essence, in order to keep it interesting. i have high hopes.



Abrams has proven on both shows that he can twist a plot while still keeping the humanity angle real.  I, too, have very high hopes.  To me, Abrams is the new Whedon for TV now that Joss is focusing on non-TV projects.



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> one final thing. a friend of mine mentioned that he'd read a spoiler tip that indicted that one of the people on the island
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wouldn't be surprised.


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## Keeper of Secrets (Sep 27, 2004)

I skipped through the post that warned about seeing the second episode.

I am sure that one of the themes to come out is 'what happened and who is to blame.'  My guess is that there are some nice scapegoats as to who to blame (if any of them are to blame).  The Iraiqi will get blamed, anyone who is weird, the rock star and his drugs (or maybe he tried to light a cigarette on the plane).

This really is setting itself up to be a lot like some of the old Twilight Zone episodes.


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## KidCthulhu (Sep 27, 2004)

I liked it.  The plane crash scene was practically unwatchable, but in a good way.  Ask PC.  I was hiding behind a pillow.

And the dog has to be the creepiest thing in the whole show.  A Laborador who doesn't coming running when he sees people?  Something is _very_ wrong there.


----------



## Mark (Sep 30, 2004)

When they mentioned that one of them had been in handcuffs, I had only hopes...


----------



## CrusaderX (Sep 30, 2004)

Wow, this show rocks.  Tons of secrets and mysteries and things to speculate about. 

This has shot up to my current #1 show.  Smallville has been great for the past two weeks as well, but Lost has really impressed me.  And it figures my two favorite shows are on at the same time.   :\   My VCR will be busy on Wednesdays.


----------



## Uzumaki (Sep 30, 2004)

I lost interest when the obligatory pregnant chick was introduced. Gag.


----------



## Mark (Sep 30, 2004)

Uzumaki said:
			
		

> I lost interest when the obligatory pregnant chick was introduced. Gag.





_...and, yet, your interest will be regained, and redoubled, when we discover what has been lurking within her womb lo these many months..._



*GAG!*


----------



## The_lurkeR (Sep 30, 2004)

Well I wasa bit 'iffy' after the first episode, but tonights episode was quite good!
Plenty of surprises/twists, and the characters are really starting to become interesting.
I'm sold and will be tuning in for the rest of the season.   

As I understand it this was supposed to be one 2 hour premiere, which would have been much smoother. I hope enough people gave it a second chance like I did. Although showing the whole 2 hours on Saturday should help too.


----------



## The_lurkeR (Sep 30, 2004)

Mark said:
			
		

> _...and, yet, your interest will be regained, and redoubled, when we discover what has been lurking within her womb lo these many months..._
> 
> 
> 
> *GAG!*



 GAH! I really hope they don't go there!


----------



## Crothian (Sep 30, 2004)

Ya, the episode tonight was much better.  The polar bear was really odd though.  :\


----------



## Bill Scott (Sep 30, 2004)

So what do we have so far?

1, A giant creature, which we can't see, who makes a mechanical sounding roar and shakes trees without destroying them

2, A polar bear who has been transplanted from the artic to the tropics

3, A decade old request for help, from the same island, the radio picked up

This show is weird but I think I know what's going on. I have a GURPS adventure called Flight 13 where these aliens kidnap the passengers of a plane and study their reactions from various stressfull stimuli. This could be what's happening here. Maybe it's not aliens but top scienists studying the mental trauma the passengers are going through. Here are clues that lead me into thinking this way

1, Do we actually see the plane crash? Not that I recall. We see various memories of the passengers before the crash which could have been planted memories, probably by hypnosis. I think whoever or whatever is behind this planted a wrecked plane on the ground and placed the 'survivors' around it

2, The giant creature that no one ever sees and does'nt leave any footprints. Maybe the trees that shake are either fake trees with mechanics inside are real trees with thin wire running down the side to yank them back and forth. The roar does sound mechanical in my opinion. Then we have the pilot of the plane which the heroes find. I think he was a plant so the heroes would actually see someone get grabbed and eaten. And why was'nt he completely eaten? So the lab rats cold see the body, or dummy would be more like it, in the tree they just happened to walk under

3, The polar bear was there to confuse the lab rats. Why a polar bear you may ask? I think a black bear or another type of bear would'nt be as shocking

4, I think the radio signal is coming from the base of the scientists or aliens who are conducting te experiments

Anyways, both episodes of Lost will replay again Saturday so I'm definitely watching them again to see what I missed


----------



## Sado (Sep 30, 2004)

I don't get why, on a deserted mysterious unknown island with obviously dangerous animals running around, that chick would be so eager to disable the gun.  Does she not see how it could be useful?  It kind of borders on the irrational. It seems all the sensitive pc (thats politically correct, not player characters) heroes nowadays are so dead-set against guns, even when they are obviously useful. I don't get it.


----------



## stevelabny (Sep 30, 2004)

hmm. still no sleestaks. oh well. maybe next week 

when negative zero first told me his fear manifestation idea last week, it sounded really good. I rewatched the first episode and wasnt convinced that it was right though. This week we get the kid reading a comic book, with a polar bear in it....and then a little while later the mountatin-climbing group encounters a real live polar bear. HMMM.  (ya know, i just went back to see if the comic is actually in spanish like the dad said, or if its in french which would make more sense, but i'm still on vcr, so its fuzzy. can someone with tivo make it out? i also can swear i saw the word PLANES so a translation would be nifty too. looks like an issue of JSA but I'm not up to date on JSA so i don't know which issue
)
that pretty much seals it for me... its not so much fear mainfestation as imagination mainfestation. or somesuch. i like it. because the possibilities are limitless, you can easily bring back the dead, or any kind of creature, or do just about anything depending on what rules the creature/island is following.

to back this up, theres actually quite a nice post on abc.com's lost messageboards about how the next episodes title is 



Spoiler



Tabula Rosa


 and the bald guys character name is Locke and how 



Spoiler



the Tabula Rosa theory by Locke is that we're all born as blank slates. And that we need sensory inputs to actually become anything.



as for the rumor that 



Spoiler



one of the people on the island wasn't on the plane [/spolier] I'm pretty sure that's true. And I'm willing to guess who it is.
Its gotta be 



Spoiler



the pregnant chick. from what I know, someone that far along is usually told not to fly, especially that long of a flight. Also, she seems to have some sort of an accent and it wouldn't surprise me to find out she can speak french. i'm pretty sure i havent seen her on the plane in any of the flashbacks.



Now if someone can only explain the Koreans to me...

Theyre repeating the 2 hour pilot in full on saturday so last chance to pimp this show to your friends.


----------



## Rugger (Sep 30, 2004)

I still think the "manifest thoughts" theory holds up... think about the pregnant woman. She took a HARD fall on her belly and the baby stopped moving.  Then all of a sudden it's back a day later?

Hmmmm.....

Unfortunately, I have a feeling the truth is gonna be WAY lamer than we all want it to be...


-Rugger


----------



## fett527 (Sep 30, 2004)

Rugger said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I have a feeling the truth is gonna be WAY lamer than we all want it to be...
> -Rugger




I hope not, but that's what we've come to expect.  Hopefully it will be a pleasant surprise.


----------



## Crothian (Sep 30, 2004)

I'm not worried about the truth being lame, I'm worried that they can keep the truth hidden but still make it interesting.


----------



## Rugger (Sep 30, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> I'm not worried about the truth being lame, I'm worried that they can keep the truth hidden but still make it interesting.




This is important, also... 

Supposedly the producers have the show plotted out to 3 seasons...with periodic resolutions scattered throughtout just in-case they get cancelled.

But based on how much they are bragging about ratings, I think we are safe for a while... <fingers crossed against the Firefly curse>

-Rugger


----------



## Crothian (Sep 30, 2004)

Ratings will drop off.  THe show is a bit different but I think people will slowly move away from it.  Btu they do have a good time slot, there really isn't anything else good at that time to watch.


----------



## Negative Zero (Sep 30, 2004)

right when the bear showed up, i thought that the manifestation was triggered by more than fear. at that time anger seemed to be the most prevalent emotion, so it could be just strong emotion. then again at the time, i hadn't noticed the polar bear in the comic so imagination could work nicely too.

i have to say that the pregnant woman does seem the most likely candidate for the spoiler tip. ... at least so far. i'm also tempted to suspect Locke (despite my earlier comments ) even though he was clearly shown on the plane.

a couple of things bother me. this simplest one being that on their return, Jack, Kate and Charlie mentioned nothing about the pilot's fate, but after the bear was killed, the wannabe lifeguard (with the annoying sister who i can't wait to see die horribly ) asked if thatwas what killed the pilot. now, did the telling happen offscreen? is it a continuity error? does he know more thna he's letting on and slipped up? just wondering.

also, the "polar bear" is never really shown. there are a few quick glimpses of it, but we never see it. my initial reaction, before we were told it was a bear, was that it was the dog, and i kept wondering what caused it to change like that. (of course, at this time i hadn't noticed the polar bear in the comic.) but even if it's not the dog, why not show it? it can't be that hard to taxidermy a dead polar bear, if a live one playing dead in Hawaii was too expensive. a frame with a dyed fur coat and some creative use of ketchup could have worked fine.  i can't help wondering if it really wasn't a bear at all, but they just went along with saying so coz it didn't look like anything else. ... reaching a little, i know.

then there's the kid and his "dad." somehow i don't buy that he's the kid's father. there's always an bit of awkward silence whenever some refers to "your son" or "your dad" plus he didn't know if the kid could read spanish or his age. i think he might be the dea mother's latest boyfriend or new husband. or, like my wife says, he might be the kid's father, but they're just estranged. *shrug*

and the dead baby's alive again. right after eating "native food" too. ... hmmm ... maybe the korean couple are the ones not from the plane. why was he so adamant about feeding everyone? Steve, you might be onto something with the whole island food thing.

oh and Sado<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_1783457", true); </SCRIPT> , it seemed perfectly reasonable to be. first of all, she's female so irrationality makes perfect sense   secondly, trauma = more irrationality. thirdly, (and this blows the whole "she's irrational" idea out of the water, but i'm like that ) the guy with the gun is the only one to have actually started a fight on the island. stands to reason, no one's safe with a gun around.

~NegZ


----------



## bodhi (Sep 30, 2004)

Maxwell's Demon said:
			
		

> A retooled "Gilligan's Island" as seen by the Brothers Grimm.  It could be much worse.  It's on my TiVo list.




I'm waiting for it to turn into Gilligan's Island re-written by HP Lovecraft.

Don't ask the Professor what he can build with two coconuts and some bamboo.


----------



## Negative Zero (Sep 30, 2004)

a friend and i were just talking about this show as the new Gilligan's Island.

instead of a professor, we have a doctor; 
the Skipper seems to split into two people, Locke and the chubby DnD player (c'mon you know he games ); 
Kate would likely be Marry Ann;
Ginger seems to now be written more bitchy that was possible way back then
and the Howells are now reclusive and Korean! 

~NegZ


----------



## Aulayan (Sep 30, 2004)

Nah, Ginger's a man in Lost.  Charlie seems to be Ginger.  A "celebrity".


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 1, 2004)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> then there's the kid and his "dad." somehow i don't buy that he's the kid's father. there's always an bit of awkward silence whenever some refers to "your son" or "your dad" plus he didn't know if the kid could read spanish or his age. i think he might be the dea mother's latest boyfriend or new husband. or, like my wife says, he might be the kid's father, but they're just estranged. *shrug*



The boy already said that he was living with his mother in Australia, and that she had recently died. The awkwardness makes perfect sense, I see absolutely nothing weird there.


----------



## Negative Zero (Oct 1, 2004)

well, if the guy was his dad living with him and the mother, it stands to reason that he'd likely cling even more to the only parent left. as opposed to their current reactions. but then i might be reaching 

~NegZ


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 1, 2004)

You haven't experienced the awkwardness of an estranged child, then. And good for you.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (Oct 1, 2004)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> The boy already said that he was living with his mother in Australia, and that she had recently died. The awkwardness makes perfect sense, I see absolutely nothing weird there.




At Kristin's Eonline chat, the propounding theory about their relationship seems to be that 



Spoiler



the dad kidnapped the son


.


----------



## Negative Zero (Oct 1, 2004)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> You haven't experienced the awkwardness of an estranged child, then. And good for you.



indeed i haven't, and no complaints there!  but estranged was one of the possibilities i mentioned.

the kidnapping idea did cross my mind briefly, but for some reason i never gave it more than a passing thought; though it does have merit.

~NegZ


----------



## Sarigar (Oct 1, 2004)

What I'm wondering is what is the connection between all of these people?  Because, if there is a big conspiracy type answer here then all of the people on the island will have something linking them together which is, in their minds, a plane crash. 
Definately have to watch these again Saturday, at which point everyone will have another dozen theories as to what is going on.  And it is because of this that most of us will continue watching this show, but many others will not.  Is it sci-fi, is it drama?  It just might be too weird for mainstream.


----------



## Ambrus (Oct 1, 2004)

Am I the only one who thought that the bear was more likely an albino brown bear rather than a polar bear? If I was in the tropics, it would be my initial theory. It's more likely than a "lost" polar bear.


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 1, 2004)

I don't believe there are bears of that size in any tropical setting. Smaller bears, like sun bears, sure, but not big bears like that. And then there's the comic thing.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 1, 2004)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I don’t think the creators of “Lost” stole this idea. The idea of being marooned someplace far from home with monsters is fairly classic. But it interesting that in the decade or so since that other pilot was made, society has shifted just enough to give a show like this a reasonable chance.




"Blame" survivor...   Its rating are in decline but its still in countries group conscious.  So I really think this show got green-lighted cause the executives can see the end of the reality TV show on the horizon.  (and good riddance in my opinion.)


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 1, 2004)

I find the kidnapping idea to be unlikely - mostly because of the presence of the dog.  If the dad nabbed his son, he probably wouldn't be able to - or want to - take the dog, too.

I think that relationship is more or less as it seems - absentee dad, maybe didn't even knew his old girlfriend was pregnant - who suddenly learns he has a kid when the mom dies.


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 1, 2004)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> thirdly, (and this blows the whole "she's irrational" idea out of the water, but i'm like that ) the guy with the gun is the only one to have actually started a fight on the island. stands to reason, no one's safe with a gun around.




I dunno about that. We don't _know_ he started a fight. We know he started an argument that led to a fist-fight/grapple. Who threw the first swing or tackled the other we don't know for sure. And at that, he was in a fight and didn't use the gun, or even brandish it to "defend" himself or the others. How dangerous was he "just because he had a gun"? He wasn't.

"No one's safe with a gun around"? Suuure...

I found it to be an unfortunate playing upon the fears of guns by the director/writer, but entirely expected. The show has presented the "redneck" as a hot-tempered person so far, plus has shown him to hold anti-muslim opinions and to be marginally sexist. Patently unflateringly. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop, a twist, with regards to this character. 

As a contrast, he accidentally ended up being "right" to be suspicious about Said, the Gulf War I Republican Guard character, and also seemed to be accidentally right about not "respecting" Kate so far.

I dunno...

Anyway, here is a suspicion I had about the show. What would the likelihood be that they are on or near one of the islands the French used to test nukes in the '50s and '60s. That the radiation from the nuke tests have mutated some of the animals. Possibly that the radiation is having other bizarre side-effects.


Regards,
Eric Anondson


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 1, 2004)

Did we watch different shows? He pointed the gun at other characters. And he was a serious jerk. He didn't come across as a redneck to me, just as an .


----------



## Negative Zero (Oct 2, 2004)

yeah, he did point the gun at other characters. but just coz Said was Republican Guard doesn't make him a hijacker, so i wouldn't be so quick to call the gun toting character "right" about him. now, you're right, we didn't see him throw the first punch, however, he does clearly goad him on.

i chose my words poorly, "no one's safe with a gun around" should have read something more like "Kate could have felt that even after taking the gun away from him, he could still have gotten/taken/stolen it back at some point." ergo the whole "no one is safe" idea (which was meant to read more as her idea.

then again, we don't know her story yet, other than she was a recently caught fugitive. from her actions/comments, i don't get the impression that she's a "criminal" per se (in the broad evil-doer sense of the word); rather more of a person pushed to a criminal act, who resents having to do the act but not the actual doing of it. sort of like the woman who murders her rapist sort of thing.

so, again, i wouldn't call gun-guy "right" about her just yet either. plus, i never got the impression that he was supposed to be a redneck. he just seems bitter and angry to me. i'm pretty sure it has the world to do with that letter he was reading. i figure it either has really crappy news and he's acting out his frustrations, or it has really great news and he's pissed he can't get to it. people deal with trauma in many different ways.

~NegZ


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 2, 2004)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> yeah, he did point the gun at other characters.




My interpretation of that was more along the line of a "Hollywood-ization" of showing what they think a jerk who has just proven himself right in front of his accusers might do. I base it on Hollywood's near-universal unrealistic treatment and unsympathetic portrayal of firearms on TV and silver-screen. I know, sometimes it's hard to turn off the cynic in me. 




			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> but just coz Said was Republican Guard doesn't make him a hijacker, so i wouldn't be so quick to call the gun toting character "right" about him.




Well, I didn't say he was right.  I said, "_he *accidentally* ended up being "right" to be *suspicious* about Said_".  Still, he was far more than just suspicious, he was flat out accusatory and chest-thumping which crossed the line which I lay at his self-righteous jerkdom.



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> i chose my words poorly, "no one's safe with a gun around" should have read something more like "Kate could have felt that even after taking the gun away from him, he could still have gotten/taken/stolen it back at some point." ergo the whole "no one is safe" idea (which was meant to read more as her idea.




As an aside, my wife thought it was clever of her to split the parts, the ammo clip to Said and the rest of the gun back to Mr. Jerk.  The two people who most hate each other.  Myself, I was meta-thinking, "what kind of marshal carries a gun but not an extra clip?"  Thinking that Mr. Jerk should probably have taken the extra ammo clips when he looted the marshal's body, and would still have them.



			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> then again, we don't know her story yet, other than she was a recently caught fugitive. from her actions/comments, i don't get the impression that she's a "criminal" per se (in the broad evil-doer sense of the word); rather more of a person pushed to a criminal act, who resents having to do the act but not the actual doing of it. sort of like the woman who murders her rapist sort of thing.




Well, here too I wasn't saying that he _was_ right about anything regarding Kate, only that he "_seemed_ to be accidentally right" to not show her respect.

It's difficult to make any judgements about any characters right now, the shows directors and writers are obviously pacing this out, and the dribbling of character biography in pieces is a stylistic choice.  At this point I'm noting these things because they have been shown to us in the way they have, in the order we've seeing them, and thus the writers are wanting the audience to develop specific opinions.  Most likely opinions which will be overturned dramatically as the show goes on.

In this way, IMO it feels correct to think that the directors/writers want us to _think_ he was accidentally right to not give her any respect.  Well, in the way that a stopped clock is "right" twice a day, or a blind squirrel can sometimes still find a nut. 




			
				Negative Zero said:
			
		

> so, again, i wouldn't call gun-guy "right" about her just yet either. plus, i never got the impression that he was supposed to be a redneck.




Well, I'm only calling him "redneck" because that was Said's insulting term for him.  Could call him gun-guy or mr. jerk maybe.  Does he actually have a name btw?  I'd much rather not use insulting labels... .  Especially since it can give the false impression that one thinks the label is correct... 

There hasn't been any spoilers about what he dis before the crash, was there?  Because I'm thinking the man is in (or was formerly in) law enforcement.  Either in police, or private security. It just feels like the appropriate "twist" that the show would reveal.


Regards,
Eric Anondson


----------



## Keeper of Secrets (Oct 2, 2004)

Someone started thatthe kid had a comic with a polar bear in it.  Now, I don't recall seeing this but if it is true then it goes a long way to suggest that the 'manifestation of fears' is an exceelnt suggestion.

On a larger level, whereas I really like this show, I am concerned about its freshness after 3 seasons.  Now, I trust JJ Abrams to put on a good show but I just wonder about their ability to string us along for 60 some episodes.  They can either reveal a bunch of secrets to us, ruining the surprise, or they can pull an X-Files on us and never show us anything worthwhile and have the last three episodes be a jumbled mess.


----------



## Negative Zero (Oct 2, 2004)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> ... I'm thinking the man is in (or was formerly in) law enforcement. Either in police, or private security. It just feels like the appropriate "twist" that the show would reveal. ...



 y'know, i thought the _exact_ same thing! i thought he was a cop. is that just really good writing? or are we both just loony 

~NegZ


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 2, 2004)

In case anyone missed it or wants to catch it again, this is just a reminder that they're playing the full, 2-hour pilot tonight, Saturday October 2, at 8/7c, on your ABC affiliate. Obviously check local listings.


----------



## drothgery (Oct 2, 2004)

Err... the "marshall" (presuming the guy that the redneck took the gun from and the one who was escoring the prisoner are the same guy) isn't dead. He's the guy with the shrapnel wound.

There's definitely more to the lead female character; she took the redneck's gun away from him like it was a toy, and the marshall-type defintely thinks she's dangerous -- enough that his first words upon waking were to ask where she was and try to warn the others about her.


----------



## MEG Hal (Oct 2, 2004)

drothgery said:
			
		

> Err... the "marshall" (presuming the guy that the redneck took the gun from and the one who was escoring the prisoner are the same guy) isn't dead. He's the guy with the shrapnel wound.
> 
> There's definitely more to the lead female character; she took the redneck's gun away from him like it was a toy, and the marshall-type defintely thinks she's dangerous -- enough that his first words upon waking were to ask where she was and try to warn the others about her.




There are enough characters and interest there for me that I will keep watching (dvr, we do _Smallville_ at same time).

I like the twists etc...

I am a bit upset about the 8pm time slot and watching people "take drugs", my almost 5 year old goes to bed at 9pm so I do not think she should be seeing that (I get enough guilt from _Smallville's_ kissing).


----------



## GSHamster (Oct 3, 2004)

Ambrus said:
			
		

> Am I the only one who thought that the bear was more likely an albino brown bear rather than a polar bear? If I was in the tropics, it would be my initial theory. It's more likely than a "lost" polar bear.




Or a spirit bear. Actually, googling brings up this page on polar bear genetics, so someone who taped the episode could confirm what it is. (Ah, the wonders of the internet.)

Also, stevelabny, thanks for the shoutout about it airing Saturday.


----------



## Tumbler (Oct 3, 2004)

Was no one else surprised/bothered by the guy taking the polar bear out with a handgun?

Bears are incredibly difficult to kill, especially when running toward you.  There just isn't much soft vulnerable area in a head on view.

This guy was lucky, an amazing shot, or the bear died because he visualized the bear dying and the island responds to thoughts.  Or the masters of the island needed the others to trust him/owe him their life (backfired) or something.


----------



## drothgery (Oct 3, 2004)

Tumbler said:
			
		

> Was no one else surprised/bothered by the guy taking the polar bear out with a handgun?
> 
> Bears are incredibly difficult to kill, especially when running toward you. There just isn't much soft vulnerable area in a head on view.
> 
> This guy was lucky, an amazing shot, or the bear died because he visualized the bear dying and the island responds to thoughts. Or the masters of the island needed the others to trust him/owe him their life (backfired) or something.



Knowing little about bears or hunting or guns, I'd be bothered if he took out the polar bear with a single shot. But he didn't; he took five or six shots to kill it. I can buy that.


----------



## RichCsigs (Oct 3, 2004)

So as I was watching the replay tonight, I noticed something that adds to the "responding to thoughts" idea.
The plane started having trouble right after the lady was talking to the doctor (Jake?) about how she was afraid to fly.  Also, she was extra nervous because her husband was in the bathroom at the time (and how come he hasn't been mentioned since?).
Also, I was in the bathroom when the scene with the comic book came up.  Do we have confirmation that there was a polar bear in the book?  Or does it just look like a polar bear?


----------



## ergeheilalt (Oct 3, 2004)

MEG Hal said:
			
		

> (I get enough guilt from _Smallville's_ kissing).




Kissing? Woah nelly, there have been some scenes that are just a bit beyond kissing. Not that it bugs me, but some of the other stuff is a bit more risque. (ie: lana in the shower, clark struting his stuff every season or so, etc.) 

Now, I really dig Lost - but as with Hal, Smallville takes priority and until I can figure out how to record a digital signal on my computer and watch another channel, Smallville gets me viewership.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 3, 2004)

Screen cap attached.  Tis a white bear.  From the comic book the kid was reading.


----------



## MEG Hal (Oct 3, 2004)

Nice pic capture...

Yes Smallville goes further then kissing showers, slight nudity and some bad words (at least for our family) especially Lois--she is foul mouthed   .  But my kids LOVE it and I let them watch it so I am kinda stuck now.  It is my one "bad" show I know I shpuld not let them watch but I do. 

But since I have DVR I can watch Lost when I am able to.

Lost did not air Sat PM due to football here, sorry Tampa peeps who missed it.


----------



## MaxKaladin (Oct 3, 2004)

I was also surprised the Sawyer (the "Redneck" according to Sayid the Iraqi) took out a bear with the handgun.  Bears are difficult to kill even with rifles.  He was _very_ lucky or else something else was going on.  

I think it likely that Sawyer does, indeed, have extra clips and he will now keep them quiet until he needs the gun again.  I didn't find the scene about disabling the gun to be at all surprising because, well, its Hollywood.  

I ought to point out that there is no guarantee that there are no other guns on the island.  For starters, there could have been a sky marshall on the flight.  There is also no guarantee that the Marshall with Kate was the only armed law enforcement official on the flight with a prisoner.  My pet theory regarding this is that we'll find out that there was another Marshall on the plane and that he's dead leaving the question of who else might be a prisoner.  Sawyer implied once already that Sayid was a prisoner by observing that he was sitting near the back of the plane with his hands under a blanket and that the guy next to him "didn't make it".   Eventually, I think we'll find that Sawyer was right.  They seem to be setting him up to have a lot of suspicions that people dismiss but which turn out to be more accurate than everyone thinks.


----------



## Bill Scott (Oct 4, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Screen cap attached.  Tis a white bear.  From the comic book the kid was reading.




Did'nt the kid say that he found the comic? If this is true, my theory is that the scientists could have placed the comic and the bear on the island so it would seem like their thoughts are manifesting. 

Going by how calm the guy was against a charging animal, and all the bullseye shots, I would agree that he is either military or a cop


----------



## valn (Oct 4, 2004)

*The French Message*

With the characters speaking all at once, even as a native french speaker, the message was hard to understand. 

Stupid-Annoying-Girl (SAG) got most of it right. I'll add a few comments (from memory):

1) SAG translated the "Please help us" part before it was actually said. 

2) She translated "It killed them all", but in french the lady used "Il" (_Il les a tous tués._), which is masculine/singular, so this could mean a thing, a monster or a man. I felt she might be talking about a murderer myself.

3) I don't remember the exact word, but the lady said she "sent him/asked him to go- to the black rock" (_rocher noir_) and he was killed there. Was she in charge? She was the only one remaining at that point...




			
				Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> What would the likelihood be that they are on or near one of the islands the French used to test nukes in the '50s and '60s. That the radiation from the nuke tests have mutated some of the animals. Possibly that the radiation is having other bizarre side-effects.



That is actually a very interesting theory! I found this link:
http://www.globelaw.com/Nukes/fnteucas.htm

_"Tests were conducted in the atolls of Mururoa and Fangataufa, [that] form part of French Polynesia,[...] from 1966 to 1991. Atmospheric explosions were carried out until 1974, but only underground test thereafter. On 13 June 1995, the French authorities announced that they intended to carry out a further series of nuclear tests on Mururoa. [...] On 5 September 1995, the first test was carried out on Mururoa. [...] The second nuclear test in the series was conducted on 1 October 1995."_

Link to a map of French Polynesia: http://encarta.msn.com/map_701514899/Mururoa.html

I hadn't noticed the polar bear in the comic. I'll have a look tonight, see if I can get a clear enough image to translate from spanish.

I don't specially like the whole "lab rat theory", but if it's done well, it might still work for me.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 4, 2004)

in a thread on another message board, someone posted a rough translation of the Korean and French spoken on the island:



> Michael: Hey, have you seen my boy?
> Korean Lady: I'm sorry, I can't speak English [blank staring] ... I can't speak English.
> Koreany Dude: Your shirt's open, close it! Quickly!
> Michael: ...
> ...



it interestingly notes that Sun seems to speak or at the very least understand English. ironically, i was just wondering earlier today if Sun & Jin are the ones who were not on the plane. it might explain his desire to be avoid contact with the other but but still keep a close eye on them. and if Steve's idea about the island food is correct, it might also explain why he was so determined to feed them. it did strike me as odd that the baby kicked after a whole day of inactivity _immediately_ after the mother ate the urchin.

another thing, how did Charlie get back to the beach? in the flashback, he ran to the bathroom at the front of the plane, near the cockpit for his hit. when the turbulence started, he stumbled out and seemingly jumpped into the nearest unoccupied seat which would have left him in the front of the plane. so, how'd he end up on the beach with everyone else? and if he walked back there like Jack did, why'd he leave without his stash?

~NegZ


----------



## Negative Zero (Oct 4, 2004)

more interesting stuff from the web (for the record, none of this stuff was written by me, i'm only passing on stuff i thought was interesting.) ...

from over on the ABC Lost - Plot forum:



> information from a Kathie Huddleston article in the October SciFi magazine titled “Lost Cause”:
> 
> “I WILL TELL YOU THIS, IT’S NOT A DINOSAUR,” says Damon Lindelof, executive producer of ABC’s new fall series Lost. He’s talking about the mysterious and apparently large monster that stalks the 48 survivors of a commercial plane crash who are stranded on a desert island. Despite the monster’s apparent size, no one manages to get a look at it in the season premiere.    ...
> 
> ...



  this was taken from a thread started by one of their forum members who has some interesting ideas on where the show is going. here's a scan of the interview. the poster includes a quote from David Fury (one of hte shows writers) in another SciFi Article:


> “Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters. The island has been around for millennia, and many people have found themselves on it, and as far as we know, nobody has ever gotten off.”



 i couldn't find the actual interview, so i guess we'll have to take hte poster's word that it's accurate 

~NegZ


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## Steverooo (Oct 4, 2004)

RichCsigs said:
			
		

> ...her husband was in the bathroom at the time (and how come he hasn't been mentioned since?).




I think he died...  After Jake wakes up and sees the dog (Vincent), he wanders out onto the beach, and starts doing Triage.  One of the first guys he looks at is an older black man.  He hurries off (I assumed that that meant that the black man was dead).  IIRC, this is the same fellow that Kate takes the boots off of, when she's going with Dr. Jake to see if they can find the cockpit, after he tells her "You're going to need some better shoes!"

http://www.lost-tv.com/pictures/details.php?image_id=99&sessionid=b2f0124af12236bd6ef5a953c9798221

Then again, I could be wrong.


----------



## Steverooo (Oct 4, 2004)

Damon Lindelof's comments make me think of "The New X-Men"'s first adventure, where they face Krakatoa, the island that came to life (where some of the first nuclear testing was done).  So, when Jake finds the pilot, he mentions where they took off from, and that they turned back after the radio went out, but were more than 1,000 miles off course...  Anyone recall where they left from, or were headed to?  Any guesses where they are?  (It certainly appears tropical!)

I'm not sure if I saw the whole thing...  I came in where Jake wakes up.  Did I miss anything?

Anyway, Kate is obviously the fugitive.  We see her sitting next to the Marshall, in handcuffs, in one of the flashbacks (he asks her if she's sure she doesn't want any more "juice", and we see her lifting her glass with both hands, because of the cuffs).  Also, the previews for this week showed her telling Jake "Why don't you just let him die?", and then cut to Jake asking "What did you do?", making it seem like she wants the marshall dead...

As for the kid and his "Dad", he tells someone else that he "live in Australia, with my Mom".  We know she's dead, now, so he has probably just been placed with his Dad, and doesn't know anything about him, yet.  Apparently, Dad was out of the picture, until Mom died.  So, neither one of them knows how to handle the other, yet...

"Dad" seemed interested to hear that Vincent was alive, though!  It'll be interesting to see what he does with the information (and how Vincent responds to both him and the kid).

I didn't think Sawyer was so bad, and I didn't see him pointing the gun at anyone, until after the bear attacked.  He seemed angry, sure enough, but not like a jerk, to me.  I, too, wonder what was in that paper (letter?) he was reading on the beach.

I keep waiting for the Lifeguard-wannabe to break out the surfboard, DUDE!    

Hmmm!  If krakatoa is a living island (and that's where these people are), then if you injest part of it ("island food"), then it becomes part of you, too!...

So where did that guy get the orange?

The dog, pregnant girl, and maybe the guy with the orange have (probably) already eaten something...  Three down, 46 to go...     (Counting the baby, and not Vincent!)

So does that give the island some kind of control of them?  It's part of them, now...

As for "the beast", it sounded totally "SteamTech", to me.  I kept expecting to see some sort of steam locomotive, or "Killdozer", instead of a monster.  The bear sounded pretty much the same, though...  I want an autopsy!    

I wish I could see the rest...  Oh well, maybe in re-runs (out of order)!


----------



## ragboy (Oct 4, 2004)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Well, I'm only calling him "redneck" because that was Said's insulting term for him. Could call him gun-guy or mr. jerk maybe. Does he actually have a name btw? I'd much rather not use insulting labels... . Especially since it can give the false impression that one thinks the label is correct...



The character's name is Sawyer. http://www.lost-tv.com/characters/


----------



## Steverooo (Oct 4, 2004)

*Spoiler!*

06 October 2004 (8/7c)

"Tabula Rasa" 



Spoiler



Jack and Hurley discover an alarming secret about Kate, as the marshal's life hangs in the balance. Meanwhile Kate, Charlie, Sawyer, Sayid, Boone and Shannon ponder the island's mysteries they've uncovered and worry that telling the other survivors will cause panic, and Locke's befriending of Walt disturbs Michael.


----------



## Negative Zero (Oct 4, 2004)

Steverooo
the plane left Sydney, and was headed for LA. it's shown on this page, near the bottom under "Promotional Fliers". and no you didn't miss anything, the show began with Jack waking up.

~NegZ


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## Steverooo (Oct 4, 2004)

*The Characters:*

There are currently 13 major characters on the series, but we don't really have that much information on who these characters actually are.

Kate (Evangeline Lilly) - "The Fugitive".

Boone (Ian Somerhalder) - "The Wannabe Lifeguard"/Surfer Dude.

Charley (Dominic Monaghan - A bass player for a popular band.

Hurley (Jorge Garcia) - "Lardo", the heavy-set "Gamer Guy" who can't stand blood. (Obviously not a D&D player!)

Shannon (Maggie Grace) - Boone's sister.  "I'll eat on the rescue boat!"

Claire (Emile De Ravin) - Pregnant girl.

Walt (Malcolm David Keller) - The little boy, Michael's son.

Sayid (Naveen Andrews) - A former Iraqi Republican Guard soldier from the Gulf War, who did telecommunications.

Michael (Harold Perrineau) - "Dad", whose wife just died.

Sawyer (Josh Holloway) - "The Jerk with a Gun".

Jack (Matthew Fox) - A doctor.  (Wasn't it Jake?)

Locke (Terry O'Quinn) - "The Jerk with the Orange"?

Jin (Daniel Dae Kim) - One half of a non-English speaking (?) Korean couple.

Sun (Yunjin Kim) - The other half of a non-English speaking (?) Korean couple.

? (L. Scott Caldwell) - Dead black guy, husband of the lady who doesn't fly well.

Ruby (?) - The black lady ("I don't fly well!").

That's 16 of the 48...  So who's missing?


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Oct 4, 2004)

It occured to me that with the French transmission there has to be a very good power source on the island. The message has been transmitting for 16 years so there must be some sort of super-battery system, a generator with a massive fuel source or at the minimun a well protected solar pannel. 

If the island is in the same dimension as the rest of the world then they realy nead to find the transmitter and change the message. If the transponder has a better broadcast range then thay can recharge the batteries or hook it up instead. Anyone who has heard the old message and ignores it because it is obviously been repeating for 16 years (not worth the effort to track it down if it is old) might perk up if they notice a new message. 

I wondered briefly why the transponder didn't have a good battery, but then I thought, it seems that there wern't nearly enough safety inspections of the rest of the plane either.


----------



## stevelabny (Oct 5, 2004)

you know a show is a winner when people are still randomly speculating in the middle of the week.

this show is probably the best network show since Twin Peaks. Large cast, (potentially) quirky characters, and lots of mysteries. 

now we just have to work on quirky music and quotable lines and we'll be ok.

when i was telling my gf about episode 2 and the theories she also picked up on the potential of the island actually being what pulled the plane down.

so whats next...randomly speculating who swings which way and who theyll hook up with? i bet Shannon and Charlie hook up first immediately followed by his death.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 5, 2004)

The chain smoking redneck 



Spoiler



who shot the polar bear to death


 really reminds me of Han Solo. I wonder if that was intentional. And 



Spoiler



I wonder what the letter he was reading was. Judging by his attitude, I get the feeling it was a Dear John letter.


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 5, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Damon Lindelof's comments make me think of "The New X-Men"'s first adventure, where they face Krakatoa, the island that came to life (where some of the first nuclear testing was done).



(Just FYI, in the real world there was no nuclear testing done at Krakatoa. It _did_ blow up on its own very spectacularly in 1883, but that was Mother Earth's doing, not man.)


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 5, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Damon Lindelof's comments make me think of "The New X-Men"'s first adventure, where they face_Krakatoa_, the island that came to life (where some of the first nuclear testing was done).



 It was _Krakoa_ the Living Island, not Krakatoa.  *Gosh!*


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## fett527 (Oct 5, 2004)

Due to a screaming 4 month old I missed what seems to be some significant scenes.  I looked at the screen captures here and determined i missed the conversation between Jack and Hurley(Big guy) on the beach, the comic book scene between father and son, as well as the scene with Charlie alone.   I have read through and seen the comic book discussed, can anyone else add more specifics on these scenes for me (such as what was said on the beach, what the father and son talked about and what Charlie was doing alone)?  Thanks.


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## fett527 (Oct 7, 2004)

I don't know about anyone else, but I think Vincent's days are numbered.

Dog jerky anyone?


----------



## Crothian (Oct 7, 2004)

Another okay episode, though I was suprised when the gunshot didn't kill the officer guy.  TV usually doesn't do messy deaths like that.  I don't recall anything important on theose specific scenes, this episode was pure filler.


----------



## soulforge (Oct 7, 2004)

I agree to the whole filler episode thing, although I really do love this show.  From that interview down w/ some of the writers and creators I don't really think we're going to see the whole stolen from your mind type of thing.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 7, 2004)

i dunno, the ep seemed pretty significant to me. one of hte main issues brought up in the pilot (i'm referring to both hours as one episode), i.e. Kate's crime was addressed and brought to some sort of resolution (at least for Jack) but still left hanging. not an easy feat, i think. also the writers seemed to go out of hteir way to show that Kate is _not_ a bad person.

she not only forgives the man who sold her out and for _money_! but she saves his life at the cost of her freedom. and even later still has his interests at heart. consequently, it's also implied that the "marshal" is sort of a jerk. i do the finger quotes coz niether me nor my wife are convinced he's a cop of any kind.

i think he's a bounty hunter (my wife thinks he's her (ex)husbnad. he seems too attached to her to just be Tommy Lee Jones in The Fugitive. he also seems to have been enjoying her capture on the plane quite a bit. moreso, even dying, his first thought when he finally saw her was to try to kill her? not really cop-like behaviour.

i'm beginning to really like Sawyer. don't get me wrong, i still think he's a d**k, but he was the first person to voice what i said from the first hour of the pilot; that they should have just killed the "marshal." although why they didn't just drown him or even just cover his mouth and nose, as opposed to wasting their last bullet, i have no idea.

in any case, so far, he seems like the only one who really gets their situation. ... well, Jack gets it, but he's still trying to act like he's back in the city with all his acustomed comforts. his adherance to his hippocratic oath seemed clearly misguided in a case were he didn't have antibiotics strong enough to treat the wound, nor any anestethetic to do surgery, nor any analgesic to ease the man's pain. *shrug* doctors.

then of course the was little Walt stopping the rain. maybe it is him doing everything. afterall, he did call the "polar bear." although i don't have an explanation for why he would maifest the radio transmission, unless he's not really a kid, but i'm not leaning that way.

and good old Locke. i don't really know what's involved or how hard it is to do, but did it strike anyone else as odd that he just up and made a _dog whistle_? one that Vincent actually answered??? i mean is it really that easy? mind you, i always say that every question is easy when you know the answer, but still... plus, what was up with the creepy music at the end as soon as he showed up?

also, it might be that i'm already leaning toward the thought/fear manifestation idea, but during the "next week on ..." scenes, one of the lines written during the cut scenes was: "their fears ... are real." a little foreshadowing maybe?

Tabula Rasa certainly didn't have the tension or the drama of the pilot, but then, i'm hoping it didn't cost 5mil like one hour of the pilot did. not to mention that although Lindenlof (who co-wrote the pilot) wrote this ep, Abrams had no hand in it beyond his role as executive producer. no writing or directing.

~NegZ


----------



## Ghostwind (Oct 7, 2004)

Has anyone made the connection between the dog and the monster being a copy of Dean Koontz's novel 'Watchers'? Smart dog, vicious monster, both from the same government lab? Food for thought for those of you who have read the book.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 7, 2004)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> i think he's a bounty hunter (my wife thinks he's her (ex)husbnad.



Yeah, I get that vibe too, but I also think she did commit a crime. I get the feeling its something less than murder though. Maybe she's a bank robber or something.



> i'm beginning to really like Sawyer. - snip - in any case, so far, he seems like the only one who really gets their situation. ... well, Jack gets it, but he's still trying to act like he's back in the city with all his acustomed comforts.



Am I the only one who thinks Sawyer is Han Solo? His lines, the scruffy look, and the fact that he was the only one crazy enough to stand up to the charging polar bear. Yep, definitely Han Solo. So that note he keeps reading. I'm thinking its a Dear John letter.



> and good old Locke. i don't really know what's involved or how hard it is to do, but did it strike anyone else as odd that he just up and made a _dog whistle_? one that Vincent actually answered???



I'm wondering if he was even one of the passengers at all. They wouldn't bring Terry O'Quinn on this show without there being something very dark about him. He's one of my favorite TV actors. I loved him in Millennium.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 7, 2004)

I am liking Sawyer a great deal more now. And watching the show tonight with my wife, at the end of the episode as the touchy-feely music faded away the camara rotated around to Locke's face and the music took a turn for the ominous. My wife observed, "why are they *trying* so hard to make Locke _creepy_."

 :\ 

After seeing the scenes from the next episode, she reiterated her theory about the island.  That there is some time-travel phenomena related to the island.  I dunno, but it's not that far out compared to many others folks have tossed out.

And, info to back up someone not being on the plane, and that it might be Locke. We saw in last week's "scenes in next week", which would have aired this week, someone opening up a large case of knives, and a character asking "How did you get knives on the plane". Of course, it wasn't answered in the teaser, and I don't think it was even shown in tonight's episode. So they are likely Locke's knives, as he was carving the whistle.  So Locke has in his possession a set of hunting knives. (I'm assuming this, and knowing the show its wrong and it will be revealed with a twist that someone else has the knife set. :/)  Potential ammunition to back up the possibility that Locke is the alleged character who was not on the plane.

I wonder how many more teasers are going to show scenes that are in episodes two or three weeks away while saying they are in the next episode... *grumble* Not that I really mind!  (_Heh, here I have turned watching Lost into the same thing I do when I get the latest issue of Dragon or Dungeon magazine... I am most interested in what the next episode (issue) is going to give me.  _)

Anyway, I think this episode was filler in the sense that it wrapped up some tension among the characters about getting off the island, and made clear that they are getting ready for the long stay. It was a happy ending... of sorts.


Regards,
Eric Anondson


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 7, 2004)

This is the first show I've experienced in a long time where that hour when they shpw a new episode disappears way too quickly. The last one I can remember like that was Twin Peaks, and it still ranks among my favorite shows.


----------



## John Crichton (Oct 7, 2004)

If this was just "filler" than give me more filler.  JJ is all about the misdirection.  Just because it looks like they are painting Locke in an ominous manner, Kate as someone who keeps paying for one mistake even though she has a heart of gold, Sawyer as a realist and Jack as the hero doesn't mean that's where they'll end up.  This is just the setup and I love it.  This show has made me forget that I still have to wait 3+ more months to see a new ep of Alias.

I'm going to stay out of the prognosticating for now but there are some interesting ideas being thrown around here.  Kate still remains my favorite character.  They made a good move in concentrating on her early.  Jack and Sawyer follow quickly behind with Sayid closing fast.  I'm going to be awfully mad when these folks start to die off...


----------



## Negative Zero (Oct 7, 2004)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if [Locke] was even one of the passengers at all.



 yes he was on the plane. he is clearly shown in the first flashback during the first hour of the pilot, sitting behind the black lady talking to Jack (i think her name was Ruby?), who's worried about her husband in the bathroom. (presumably in the tail end of the plane that got ripped off.

~NegZ talking to Jack


----------



## Taladas (Oct 7, 2004)

I was watching Lost with a friend and she said something about Locke that made me think. What if Locke was blind and his sight was somehow restored in the crash?

He told the boy that a miracle happened. He was staring out at the ocean and the jungle, exactly what a person would do if his sight was restored. 

Lost had really caught my interest. Lost followed by Mythbusters means a pretty cool Wednesday.


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## Steverooo (Oct 8, 2004)

*Spoiler*



Spoiler



Everyone keeps guessing as to which character it is that was not on the plane...  I am 99% sure that I can tell you the answer to that one...  Run away, if you don't want to know!



















The answer is:

NONE OF THEM!

Yes, that's right, it is SOMEONE WE HAVEN'T SEEN YET, played by Craig T. Nelson...  Sure, I betcha!  Tune in next week!


----------



## Steverooo (Oct 8, 2004)

So is Walt the little boy?  If so, then who is the bald-headed, older man?


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 8, 2004)

Walt is the boy, yes. Locke is the bald, older man (with the cut around his eye).


----------



## LightPhoenix (Oct 8, 2004)

Actually, if the polar bear, the distress call, and the big giant monster are all manifestations of fears, it makes perfect sense.  That's why the plane crashed too then... they flew over the island, and someone was afraid the plane would crash, and bam, down it goes.


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## Arnwyn (Oct 8, 2004)

I'm really surprised the group didn't go immediately out to search for the source of the transmission (aka a possible 'secret base' or something).

So far, that transmission is the most intriguing part of this show, and I'm dying to know more about it.


----------



## Hand of Evil (Oct 8, 2004)

Comic book - it was only seen in the hands of the boy but it was found in the wreakage, had a polor bear picture in it, an island, a secret base...big clue!


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## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 8, 2004)

Was there a specific scene where the folks who heard the transmission decided not to tell anyone - Kate tells the doctor, but it doesn't seem like anyone else is told.  I missed a few bits of the show here and there, so that may be the reason.

I'm assuming no one still thinks Sawyer is military or police after his bungled shooting of the marshall.


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## RichCsigs (Oct 8, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Was there a specific scene where the folks who heard the transmission decided not to tell anyone - Kate tells the doctor, but it doesn't seem like anyone else is told.  I missed a few bits of the show here and there, so that may be the reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Oct 8, 2004)

arnwyn said:
			
		

> I'm really surprised the group didn't go immediately out to search for the source of the transmission (aka a possible 'secret base' or something).
> 
> So far, that transmission is the most intriguing part of this show, and I'm dying to know more about it.




As I posted posted earlier I agree that the transmission is exceedingly important. If nothing else it will give you access to a power source that has worked for 16 years. If you are trapped on this island wouldn't that be of supreeme importance.


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## fett527 (Oct 8, 2004)

http://abc.go.com/primetime/lost/diary.html 

ABC's official site.  Doesn't say who writes the diary, at this point it seems to be a person outside the main cast.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 8, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Was there a specific scene where the folks who heard the transmission decided not to tell anyone - Kate tells the doctor, but it doesn't seem like anyone else is told.  I missed a few bits of the show here and there, so that may be the reason.




There was a scene, as someone else pointed out. 

However, I"m still curious why the lifeguard kid knew the pilot was dead when there was a scene where the three (doc, hobbit, and Kate) specifically said they wouldn't mention it to anyone. Probably something got lost in the editing, but who knows...?


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 8, 2004)

fett527 said:
			
		

> ABC's official site.  Doesn't say who writes the diary, at this point it seems to be a person outside the main cast.




I don't know- from the entry for "Night Two" ("Played backgammon with Walt today...") it sounds like it's Locke's diary.


----------



## Fast Learner (Oct 8, 2004)

Anybody could have played backgammon with him... all the notes about surfing and such make me think it's Boone, the "ex-lifeguard," brother of the super-annoying woman.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 9, 2004)

My girlfriend just watched the third episode that I taped for her, and mentioned something interesting.  She said that the group that returned from the mountain never mentioned the polar bear!  Anyone confirm that?  I understand not wanting to discuss the 16-year old broadcast, but surely the polar bear might have some relevance to their current situation.


----------



## Crothian (Oct 9, 2004)

No, the polar bear was not mentioned, even to the doctor.

You'd think the people on the beach would have heard the gun shots.....


----------



## The Human Target (Oct 9, 2004)

I really dig this show so far, but I can't help but wonder if some of the things fellow posters are having problems with are intentional plot points and mysteries or just bad editing/writing. How does Boone know about the pilot?
Why don't they mention the bear? Why don't they try to find the power source? Why can't anyone see the monster? I'm sure somethings are meant to be red herrings and misleads (ie the ominous zoom in on the dog and on Locke maybe?) but I'm not sure if the show is pure genius and full of details or good with some errors. I guess only time will tell.


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## fba827 (Oct 9, 2004)

Regarding the diary - it makes specific reference to "I gave up my cell phone to help with electonics to boost the transmitor's signal" -- if that's the case, they did show someone in episode #1 trying to use his cell phone... I can't remember who that is, but they did show someone repeatedly trying the cell phone.


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## The Goblin King (Oct 10, 2004)

One possible twist is that they are all dead.  Nobody survived the plane crash.  The people on the show are the souls of those who died but could not move on.  

I doubt this is what is going on but it might be fun to run a game like that.  Or maby I have just played way too much Wraith:tO in the past.


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## Nellisir (Oct 10, 2004)

I'm intrigued by the show, though I'm hoping most of the "answers" aren't as sci-fi as people seem to be guessing -- it's a bit of a deus ex machina to just say "oh, it's something unnatural".

The crashing thing in the jungle sounds distinctly mechanical -- the sounds, when they occur, are pretty regular, and remind me of some kind of pressure release valve going off.  Does anyone remember if the trees actually fall over, or do they more or less just go straight down?

I think the polar bear/comic book is a red herring.  The simplest answer is that the plane was carrying a polar bear, presumably from an Australian zoo to a US one.  The dog survived, after all, and the two would have been in the same area of the cargo hold.

As far as the message...I dunno.  Easy enough to fake, if you wanted to.  I'd certainly be hopping to find the source, though.

And the basics.  They should be looking for sources of constant fresh water right now.

Looking forward to next week,
Nell.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 10, 2004)

Can a polar bear fit in a plane's cargo hold?  I would think it would take some sort of dedicated transport to move a bear that size, especially considering how cold you'd have to make it inside.  I'm thinking something along the lines of a military cargo plane if they flew a bear at all.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 10, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Can a polar bear fit in a plane's cargo hold?  I would think it would take some sort of dedicated transport to move a bear that size, especially considering how cold you'd have to make it inside.  I'm thinking something along the lines of a military cargo plane if they flew a bear at all.




My thoughts exactly. I don't see them using a passenger plane to transport a polar bear.


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## Nellisir (Oct 10, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Can a polar bear fit in a plane's cargo hold?  I would think it would take some sort of dedicated transport to move a bear that size, especially considering how cold you'd have to make it inside.  I'm thinking something along the lines of a military cargo plane if they flew a bear at all.




I don't know the size of the crates they use to transport polar bears, but I suspect they keep the bear tranquilized, or at least pretty doped up, during the flight, so it might not be as large as you think.  I could be wrong, though.

Temperature isn't a factor, within reason.  Bear enclosures are generally outdoors anyways, so the bear is subject to whatever the local climate is (this might be different in the south).

Cheers
Nell.

[Edit] Searching for information on transporting polar bears turned up a post from another Lost forum wherein someone noted the polar bear could have been being transported as a cub 16 years ago.  Also numerous references to Fed Ex transporting 3 polar bears out of Puerto Rico (at it's own expense), which obviously would've been a cargo plane.  The bears were being mistreated and were moved to zoos in the mainland US.

Possibly not significant, but in Thailand elephants are used in logging, and can push down trees.  African elephants would certainly be capable of it.  Not sure it fits with what we've seen so far, though.


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## dreaded_beast (Oct 12, 2004)

For myself, I really hope it is something sci-fi or unnatural.

I really hate it when shows/movies try to make it seem as if something "supernatural" is occuring, but it is actually just some kind of trick or ploy.

Movies such as:



Spoiler



"Brotherhood of the Wolf" and the "Thirteenth Warrior"


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 12, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> Movies such as:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually loved those movies for exactly that reason. It isn't that difficult to make the supernatural seem supernatural, but it takes a great deal of skill from a writer/filmmaker to make the mundane seem supernatural. Anyway, the first movie mentioned is actually among my favorite movies.


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## dreaded_beast (Oct 12, 2004)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> I actually loved those movies for exactly that reason. It isn't that difficult to make the supernatural seem supernatural, but it takes a great deal of skill from a writer/filmmaker to make the mundane seem supernatural. Anyway, the first movie mentioned is actually among my favorite movies.




Yes, I liked the first movie alot as well, even the second.

Personally, I would rather have known going in that it was not "supernatural" and was just a "trick". That's just me though   

I try to put myself in a particular frame of mind for the movie I go too. For example, I don't go to a Jackie Chan movie for the deep story, so I am a bit more lenient in terms of story. So for a movie that I am expecting to be a "sci-fi, horror" and it turns out to be something else, it dissappoints me a bit since I am not in the frame of mind for that particular type of movie.


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## Klaus (Oct 12, 2004)

I'm still waiting for Lost to get down here, but I sure as hell hope it doesn't go the way of John Doe (a great show that got cancelled and whose "answer" didn't live up to the mystery).


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## fett527 (Oct 12, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> Yes, I liked the first movie alot as well, even the second.
> 
> Personally, I would rather have known going in that it was not "supernatural" and was just a "trick". That's just me though
> 
> I try to put myself in a particular frame of mind for the movie I go too. For example, I don't go to a Jackie Chan movie for the deep story, so I am a bit more lenient in terms of story. So for a movie that I am expecting to be a "sci-fi, horror" and it turns out to be something else, it dissappoints me a bit since I am not in the frame of mind for that particular type of movie.




Don't ever see M. Night Shyamalan's _The Village_  you definitely wouldn't like it.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 13, 2004)

fett527 said:
			
		

> Don't ever see M. Night Shyamalan's _The Village_ you definitely wouldn't like it.



 ... although, now that you've told him that there's nothing supernatural going on, he actually might (... as i did. though i get why most people didn't).

as a semi interesting aside, can anyone else actualy read the spoiler text behind the black over without actully highlighting it? or is it just me? ... weird.

[EDIT]
<EDIT>
no wait, it's just in fett527's post. nevermind.
[/EDIT]
</EDIT>

~NegZ


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 13, 2004)

That's because fett black-tagged it instead of spoiler-tagging it.  Be advised people: not every forum theme has white text on a black background


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## WizarDru (Oct 13, 2004)

My big question about the polar bear would be: how did it survive?  A polar bear is used to living at really low temperatures in arctic conditions.  This is a _jungle, in the tropics._ 

From answerbag.com, for example: "_Polar bears are wonderfully insulated; their insulation is so effective that when viewed with infrared (heat) camera they are barely visible. Only the pads of their feet emit detectable heat. They start to overheat at temperatures above 50°F (10°C) though, and need cold water to cool down._"

Now, that may be an excuse for why it was relatively easy to kill....or not.  Is it possible it wasn't a polar bear, but an albino kodiak or some other breed?

The trick, here, is to find a way to separate the mcguffins from the factual.  As long as things are kept vague, there's no way to tell where supernatural starts and misdirection begins.  We have no framework, and they're doing a masterful job of it.

I really like how the characters are complex, not just caricatures.  Hurley is a funny, nice guy...but not pure comic relief or parody.  Sawyer didn't strike me as creepy, at the end, but remorseful.  It's easy to say you'll kill someone, but I think the reality of actually doing it struck him hard...especially since he didn't do it correctly.  That tells us volumes about Sawyer as a character, and even more about who he ISN'T.  Jack killing the marshall was, to me, creepier by far. 

It's also nice to see the many 'genre' actors at work.  Terry O'Quinn's character of Locke is a riddle wrapped in an enigma....which is typical for him.  Daniel Dae Kim gets to play a jerk again, but I'm curious to see where Jin and Sun are headed, as characters (poor, poor Crusade).

All in all, I'm thrilled to have a show on television again that I actually WANT to watch.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 13, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> ... All in all, I'm thrilled to have a show on television again that I actually WANT to watch.



*AAAAAAAAMEN brother* you said a mouthfull right there! 



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> My big question about the polar bear would be: how did it survive? ...



 and i still say that i don't believe it was a bear of any sort. the sots were too vague and too quick. i'm certain we're _meant_ to think it was a bear. but i ain't buying it just yet.

~NegZ


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## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 13, 2004)

The polar bear being alive makes a good argument for it having been on the plane that just went down, as opposed to the one from 16 years ago - and as an aside "16 years" is a character conjecture based on a theory, it could prove to be wrong - or else the polar bear would be explained by something else.


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## dreaded_beast (Oct 13, 2004)

Well, Lost won't play for another 6 and half-hours here in Hawaii, but I can't wait to watch.

Unfortunately, I have to go and play DND when Lost is showing (hehe), so I'll have to record both Lost and Smallville.

I loved the trailer for this episode (tonight's) where people are freaking out about there not being any food and then Locke steps up to the plate, sounding all "kewl" saying, "We hunt."


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## Crothian (Oct 14, 2004)

What are there like 40 survivors?  With them introducing only one an episode it'll be late season 2 before we get a realy full episode on the island.


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## Steverooo (Oct 14, 2004)

*What Gets Me...*

I've only seen half the episodes, but...  Four episodes, and no one's even explored the island, yet?  C'mon!  For all they know, there's a hotel resort on the other side!

No one's looked for food, except in the ocean?  No one's looked for a source of fresh water?  No one's thought to find the transmitter, to see what kind of shelter, supplies, and gear are there?

Whoever these people are, there isn't an Ex-military nor survivalist type among the lot of'em!  No one's even taken care of the basics.  I guess they're all sleeping on the beach, as I didn't see anyone doing anything about setting up a shelter.  You know there's a storm coming along any episode, now...

We do see that they've pulled a whole lot of suitcases out of the plane.  We don't see that anyone has inventoried anything, except the food.

Someone mentioned burying the bodies in episode one...  Has even that been done?  If not, they'd be stinking, by now.  Time to move camp!... but to where?  No one's explored anyplace but to the mountain where they tested the communicator...

So where are they getting the water?  Not off a wrecked plane, I'm pretty sure!  The food should be running out, quickly, as they have no means of temperature control, now.  Clothing and shelter apparently have been given no thought, yet.

At this point, the smokers, etc., probably still have matches and/or butane/lighter fluid enough to start the fires we keep seeing, but how long can that last?  From what we've seen from this group, so far, I seriously doubt that most of them can start a fire without one of the above!

My God, these people are passive!  Sub-First-Level PCs, if you ask me!  (Not a fish hook, nor flint & steel among the lot of'em, I betcha!)

Gosh, I hope the Iraqi National Guard taught Sayid how to make a fire, at least!  Otherwise, this show won't make it to season two!


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## Negative Zero (Oct 14, 2004)

Steverooo:
the thing apparently is, most of the people are expecting rescue at any moment and are in severe denial as to the reality of their situation. sure there are a few subsections of society that could deal with this situation in at least a marginal approximation of efficacy, but for the most part, i figure it's about average for what i'd expect from the non-gamer people i know 

they haven't looked for the transmitter coz most of them don't know about it and the ones that do are trying to find it. the fresh water so far has come from rain. as to exploration they all think there's a dangerous monster on the island, so they're not eager to explore. *shrug*

in other news ...

so Locke was paralyzed before the crash, but now, he can walk. why? because he _wants_ to. his desire/imagination now made real. maybe it's the tree shaking "creature" that causes this effect. why did it kill the pilot, but not Locke? and why did he deny seeing it? perhaps he's figured out what it is/does, or maybe he was spared because of his determination to overcome his handicap and thus transcend his limitations. (asuming that is somehting the "creature" is interested in or is actively persuing.)

of course, i'm just rambling on and seeing where my thoughts take me. i haven't really thought any of this conjecture out yet.

also, near the end of the episode, Jack is sitting out on the beach by himself, during the "memorial service." now, since the conversation with Claire (pregnant Aussie girl) i'd decided that somewhere along his life, he'd lost his faith. whethter in God or life or people or whatever, he'd lost it. this seems like a perfectly plausible reason for staying away from the ceremony, afterall it "not [his] thing." but then, something about his posture and positioning struck as being a lot like ... damn what's her name? the black lady who "lost" (hehe) her husband ... like hers ... and i wonder if he's now mimicing her actions because he's seen the man in the suit. (i'm presuming that she saw him too.)

i have to say though, every scene with Harold Perrineau (Walt's father) jarrs me out of the show. this guy is a bad actor in every role i've seen him in. ugh.

~NegZ


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## Crothian (Oct 14, 2004)

Didn't make this episode one of the ones you watched huh??

The burned all the dead bodies as they attracted wild boars.  They did start inventoring things episodes ago, that how they find a few helpful things.  They fished and hunted boar this episode.  Last episode or the one before they gather fresh water from the rain.

I'm not sure how eager anyone would be about exploring the island with the Big Whatever on it.  But you are right at the very least they could circle around the beach and see exactly how big the island is and if they happen to see another island close by.  But its a TV show so I expect lots obvious choices to be ignored.


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## Crothian (Oct 14, 2004)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> and i wonder if he's now mimicing her actions because he's seen the man in the suit. (i'm presuming that she saw him too.)




I don't think she has.  That would be something you mentyion to people and Jack should tell the others as well.  There is no good reason not to tell people that you other people, unless Jack thinks he imagined it.


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## Chun-tzu (Oct 14, 2004)

The revelation at the end rocked. Locke's a pretty interesting guy.

I'm not sure if the American feed showed the same preview for next week as the Canadian feed that I saw. It was one of those previews that I curse that gives away something that wasn't supposed to be revealed yet. It's about the man in the suit.



Spoiler



Jack finally comes face to face with the suit guy, and exclaims in a surprised voice, "DAD?!?"



Pair that with what we've seen so far, and Jack's decision to pass on the memorial, I'm thinking there's definitely something paranormal going on here.


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## The_lurkeR (Oct 14, 2004)

Ok another good episode, Locke's story was great and seems to lend support to the people here who think that the peoples mind have control over the environment/themselves.

What I don't get though is why people are being so secretive? I can almost see why they didn't say anything about the transmission, but really why doesn't Jack say anything about the man on the beach he saw? Also why did Locke say he didn't see the "monster" when it seems he clearly did?


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## Crothian (Oct 14, 2004)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if the American feed showed the same preview for next week as the Canadian feed that I saw.




Ya, we didn't get that, least I didn't see anything like that


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## Urbanmech (Oct 14, 2004)

Can anyone tell me what happened in the last two episodes.  I've unfortunately missed them both and feel behind.  Thanks!


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## RedShirtNo5 (Oct 14, 2004)

The_lurkeR said:
			
		

> Also why did Locke say he didn't see the "monster" when it seems he clearly did?



Two thoughts:

1.  I'm guessing Forbidden Planet.  He didn't "see" the monster.

2.  Locke knows miracles can happen on the island, but also knows the others don't know.  He can't say "Hey, the monster is invisible!" (or a dragon, or a dinosaur, or whatever), since then the other survivors will think he's crazy. 

RedShirt


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## RedShirtNo5 (Oct 14, 2004)

*More food for thought*

And since I'm a RedShirt, I have to mention this:



> Episode Title: "SHORE LEAVE"
> Production Number: 17
> Original Air Date: 12-29-66
> Stardates: 3025.3, 3025.8
> ...



IIRC, McCoy actually dies during the episode when the park generates simulations based on his fears.


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## Fast Learner (Oct 14, 2004)

There are always good (if a bit snarky) summaries of recent tv shows over at Television Without Pity. Tonight's _Lost_ and _Smallville_ will be up tomorrow, but you can catch up on last weeks episodes there right now.


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## Caius (Oct 14, 2004)

I just caught last nights episode with my sister. at first we were a bit too busy pointing out where we had seen some of the actor's to really understand what was going down. But once we finished that I actually enjoyed it.

I personally didn't see Locke the little "twist" with locke (don't want to spoil it if some haven't seen it) probably because this was my first episode.

What's up with the transmission?

but I think I'll try and catch next week's ep. I'm glad I've got time shift so I can catch it after America's Next Top Model,


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## Nellisir (Oct 14, 2004)

dreaded_beast said:
			
		

> Personally, I would rather have known going in that it was not "supernatural" and was just a "trick". That's just me though
> 
> I try to put myself in a particular frame of mind for the movie I go too. For example, I don't go to a Jackie Chan movie for the deep story, so I am a bit more lenient in terms of story. So for a movie that I am expecting to be a "sci-fi, horror" and it turns out to be something else, it dissappoints me a bit since I am not in the frame of mind for that particular type of movie.




I didn't hear anything about it being supernatural, so I wasn't in the frame of mind for that.  Mysterious, yes.  Science fiction, no.  I think reality, in this case, would be more interesting than some arbitrary magical force that gives them whatever they want or fear (and how does it decide?  Being stranded is probably some people's worse fear, but being rescued is probably their greatest desire).   I'll be extremely disappointed if this turns into "Buffy's Island", with the fear of the week.

In other news, Locke is cool.  A bit of a liar, but cool.

Cheers
Nell.


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## Nellisir (Oct 14, 2004)

Negative Zero said:
			
		

> and i still say that i don't believe it was a bear of any sort. the sots were too vague and too quick. i'm certain we're _meant_ to think it was a bear. but i ain't buying it just yet.
> ~NegZ




They did the same thing with the boar.  I think they're just embarrassed to show they were too cheap to go out and film real animals, and made do with stuffed ones on tracks.

Cynical, I know.  But the animals keep jarring my willing suspension - even the little glimpses don't look real.

:-/
Nell.


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## WizarDru (Oct 14, 2004)

Another really good episode.  Locke was very interesting.  Who he actually was, and who the islanders think he is are two very different people.  Which is a theme in the show, of course, but few more so than Locke.

However, I'm still not buying the 'wishes come true/dream into reality' idea, at least not yet.  If it is a visualization to reality concept, it's a very strange or limited one.  So far, we've only gotten two elements that can't be resolved (with varying degrees of believability) to something normal: namely the monster and the mysterious man-in-suit.  While Locke's 'miracle' certainly is dramatic, it's not beyond the realm of reason that the accident itself might have done it.  Neuroscience is wiggy that way  (of course, it could also only be temporary or be damaging him in a completely different way...we don't know).

But if the island is granting thoughts, it's doing it in an odd way. Consider:

If Walt summoned the bear by reading a comic book, why didn't it appear to Walt, instead of half-way across the island?  And why the polar bear, when his desire for his dog Vincent must have been much, much more intense?  For that matter, how about his dad, actively searching for the dog, and he couldn't find him?

If we presume that Locke got his legs back from a wish, shouldn't he have had to wake up first to have the wish?  A better question is how his legs are working so well, but we really don't know if he's been routinely exercising them in therapy, or how he lost the use of them, four years ago.

For that matter, if they were getting what they desired or feared....what's the deal with the french-woman's message?  I can accept they might hear a 'you're doomed' message (although they were all clearly hoping to get a message out, to be saved), but the cryptic nature of the message, it's being in French and the strange details (such as the iterative count and guesses to its significance) make it hard for me to believe that it was by desire.  I think the comic book may have been a red herring.

Consider also that we've got 48 people (49 at one point), and they clearly all have some pretty powerful desires and fears right now: none of which appear to be being acted upon by the island.  So while it's a good theory, I don't believe in it.

The Forbidden Planet thing, though...that I can consider.

The big question of the episode was: what did Locke see, or not see?  The follow-up question is: did Locke kill the boar, and if not, what will happen the next time they hunt?

At this point, I'm thinking that Locke didn't kill the boar, but instead dragged the corpse that the monster left behind.  I don't think that the monster eats it's kills (just like with the pilot) and isn't hunting for food.  Why it is hunting and what it hunts is another question entirely.  Whatever the creature actually looked like was either too fantastic for Locke to accept or perhaps it did something to him.  It's obvious the father doesn't believe him, but doesn't know what to say.

I do think it's interesting how thick the layer of secrecy has become, so quickly.  You have several distinct groups:


Those who've 'seen' the monster
those who know about the broadcast
those who know that Kate is a criminal
those who know that Kate was placing a transmitter
those who've seen the sneaker-wearing man-in-suit

Now, here's the interesting thing: only one character belongs to all these groups.  Jack.  Remove the man-sighting, and you've got two: Jack and Kate.

Hmmmm......


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## Dagger75 (Oct 14, 2004)

Some of my thoughts.

 I don't think the doctor is a real doctor.  He might have gone to school to try and learn the family biz but I think he snapped.  I have a feeling a paitent may have died on him when he was an intern and he couldn't handle it. Dropped out of medical school.  He tried everything to save the bounty hunter but in the end had to kill him.  I think the guy he saw was from his deranged mind.

I missed the first 2 episodes so I didn't really see the polar bear thing.


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## RatPunk (Oct 14, 2004)

RedShirtNo5 said:
			
		

> And since I'm a RedShirt, I have to mention this:
> 
> 
> IIRC, McCoy actually dies during the episode when the park generates simulations based on his fears.




I've actually had that in the back of my mind since reading people's theories after the first episode...


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## Negative Zero (Oct 14, 2004)

WizarDru:
consider this; in support of the thoughts=reality idea, the main two people who possibly have displayed manifestations are Locke and Walt. it doesn't seem a stretch to deduce in Locke's case, the fact that he is a clearly slightly off-balance mentally (the unhealthy attachment to the chic on the phone, likely a 900 number) and his clear and unyeilding determination to exceed his limitations may make him more receptive to that sort of thing.

in Walt's case, as a child, his mind is likely more open to a lot of the things that adulthood teaches the rest of us to ignore/discount. however his immaturity/inexperience may not give him enough control or even awareness to direct his manifestations in any precise manner. indeed, the more _actively_ he wants something, the harder it might be for him to actually manifest it.

same goes for the rest of the survivors. the collective _active_ want to be rescued might be just what's preventing it. another possibility could be that this effect cannot affect anything beyond the island. further, since the rest of the survivors may not have whatever motivating factor required by this effect, or at least in generous enough helpings, then it's only their more generally collective subconcious thoughts that most of them have in common that might be manifesting.

i've stated before that i think there is a sentient force/entity/creature on the island manipulating events. that may also be why things seem to be random. we may not understand its motivations or even it's way of reasoning.

i too don't think that Locke killed the boar. your suggestion that the creature killed it and that he simpley took the already dead boar has a lot of merit, i think. i also think there's more to Jack than he's letting on (like everyone else, i suppose) Dagger75's idea did occur to me briefly, but i hadn't paid it much attention at the time. you may be onto something there.

~NegZ


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## swrushing (Oct 14, 2004)

i came away thinking the bigbad killed the boar as well. But after that i got this idea about locke...

what if the bigbad killed the boar and then gave it to locke as a peace offering?

What if the bigbad is indeed some sort of beastwho turned against his "cruel scientists" long ago but is in fact, ala perhaps a frankenstein twist, not  a bad guy, just monstrous.

Locke, gets the offered boar, realizes this beast is not "an enemy" but also realizes the majority of the mob might not get it and is keeping it secret until he can get things a little more in hand.

It would be a good storytelling twist for the "fear of unknown" to keep this beastie as " the threat" only to find out later that its more of a misunderstood, and monstrous,  potential ally. 

just a thought.


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## WizarDru (Oct 14, 2004)

NegZero:  I see your point, I'm just not ready to buy into it, yet.  I'll need more before I'm willing to go down that road.  I don't think Locke is deranged at all...I just think he's a little unnerved by everything.  He really does see this as a miracle.  Desperately lonely and depressed from being a prisoner in his own body?  Sure.  But he strikes me as one of the most clear-headed characters.  After all, this is what he _wanted_...he's more alive than ever before, from what we see.  Which may play into your theory, but like I said, I'm not there, yet.

I DO like swrushing's theory that this thing is intelligent, and maybe Locke communicated with it, somehow.  The show has played fair, but likes to mislead, so I could see it going either way.  It's a lot of fun to speculate, anyhow. 

What I do wonder is if everyone will get this image of Locke as dangerous great white hunter, and then when the time comes, find he's not really the man they think he is.  I think Locke is up to it, but he's something of a myth, for the moment. 

I also think the idea that Jack isn't really a doctor is spot-on, and I'm interested to see where it leads.  Damn, this show has some great characters.  Of course, everyone's favorite bassist is about to suffer some really nasty DTs.  Wonder how that'll play out?


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## Rackhir (Oct 14, 2004)

With regards to the "Wish Fullfillment/Leaving the Island" aspect of things. I can see a fair number of characters, in their heart of hearts NOT wanting to leave the island. As pointed out Lock is getting to live out his fantasy. Kate as a criminal with a reward on her head has a strong incentive for not going back. Perhaps the kid, doesn't want to go back to america. The korean couple, especially if they are North Korean could have LOTS of reasons to not want to go back there. The bickering, to be married, couple might not want to go back, because neither of them is sure they really want to get married which they would probably be forced into if they do get back. That's all I can think of off hand at the moment, but you get the idea.

I do like the idea of them being dead/in some sort of midway zone. It could explain the creature as well. The creature could be yanking people out of the "dead zone" and back into life and or that being "killed" on the island actually means you've returned to life. Since Locke wants to be there very much the creature might not have been able to force him back. 

It could also explain the spontanious healing, since if you are dead there's no reason why real world wounds should/would persist, especially if the will to over come them is strong enough. Another example might be the pregnant woman, her baby could have survived her death. Thus seeming dead on the island, but eventually died and thus came back to life on the island. 

Bringing the island food, theory into things as well, according to greek mythology if you ate food from the land of the dead then you had to remain there. Which if tied into the real wounds not being present in the dead zone of the island might also explain why eating native food seemed to be linked to some of the spontanious healing, like the pregnant woman's baby.


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## fett527 (Oct 14, 2004)

I think it is still difficult to conjecture at this point.  I'm not buying the manifestment of desires.  Many of the reasons why have already been pointed out (Why didn't Walt wish Vincent back to him?).  I would be disappointed of something doesn't come out of all the weird stuff associated with Walt so far- the Polar bear, the rain stopping.

I certainly loved the story behind Locke so far.  This was much more interesting than last weeks episode.  

I am not going to guess at what the monster is, don't have any idea really.

(Sorry about the spoiler mistake earlier, wasn't thinking.)


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2004)

I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss Locke…  and/or is his kill.  (Call it a gut feeling but I think WYSIWYG is the truth about him.)

The biggest mystery, or at least reoccurring mystery, to me is the plane wreck itself…  Planes do not break apart into 3 sections…  Well at least in the air, after you hit the ground it’s anyone call.  Yet we evidently have three sections, the tail section which has been see ripping apart at about 30, 000 feet more than a few times, and is probably lost out at sea…)

The middle section, which is where all the survivors are from.

The cockpit, which landed so far away from the middle section that I can see it as having been connected at the point of impact

So really what happened to the plane? :\


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## WizarDru (Oct 14, 2004)

The real trick is trying to figure out what was a budget concern, what was a concession to plot, what was just done to look really cool versus an actual clue/herring.

For example: much has been made of not showing the actual crash and not doing lots of close-ups and work with the animals, but I suspect these were more production-based concerns than actual plot points.  M. Night Shamaylan pointed out that the reason they never used their filmed footage of the train wreck in "Unbreakable" was that it looked bad.  A TV series has to make do with even less money...and that special effect for the shattering of the plane must have been expensive.  Showing the crash probably would have been prohibitively expensive and might not have worked.

Which doesn't mean that they did or didn't crash, but I suspect it less.  It's a trick of the show: we don't know the ground rules, yet.  Until we know the world's reality set, everything is just conjecture.  Could the plane have been hit by wind shear?  Otherwise, it was pretty odd.


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 14, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> For that matter, if they were getting what they desired or feared....what's the deal with the french-woman's message?  I can accept they might hear a 'you're doomed' message (although they were all clearly hoping to get a message out, to be saved), but the cryptic nature of the message, it's being in French and the strange details (such as the iterative count and guesses to its significance) make it hard for me to believe that it was by desire.  ..




I don't necessarily buy the whole "wish" granting theory myself, but here's a possible scenario for the message. As I recall, they weren't getting any signal at first, but then started to pick something up. The person who translated the message was the blonde girl. Now, she doesn't strike me as being the most optimistic person on that island- she seems (from what I've seen) downright convinced that they are stuck and are going to die on that island. 

Wish-translating doesn't necessarily equate to good wishes (the old, "be careful what you wish for" adage). If she's already convinced that they aren't going to get off of the island, then she may have created a self-fulfilling prophecy by "providing" the message- and robbing everyone of their hope.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Showing the crash probably would have been prohibitively expensive and might not have worked.




Oh I'm not asking to see the crash...  I'm just wanting them to tell me how a airplane “fell” apart into 3 parts at 30,000 feat…  I got no problem with the tail going bye bye a loss of cabin pressure could do that.  (which airline had the top half of one of its planes rip off over Hawaii back in the 80's early 90's?  Where's Ranger REG when you need him?)


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## Cthulhudrew (Oct 14, 2004)

**Double post**


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## Fast Learner (Oct 14, 2004)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> As I recall, they weren't getting any signal at first, but then started to pick something up. The person who translated the message was the blonde girl. Now, she doesn't strike me as being the most optimistic person on that island- she seems (from what I've seen) downright convinced that they are stuck and are going to die on that island.



On the contrary, she's the one who has been assuming they'll be rescued any minute now.

I dunno about the fear/wish theory. I will say, though, that it's possible that what the boy most wanted was for his dad to be killed. It's not that uncommon of an immature thought... most kids take it back very quickly, realizing that they don't _really_ want their parent dead, but the thought can come up.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 14, 2004)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> On the contrary, she's the one who has been assuming they'll be rescued any minute now.




I believe her words where, "I'll eat on the rescue ship."  (of course she said this while sunbathing and listening to music.)


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## Crothian (Oct 15, 2004)

Her actions showed she was expecting to be rescuesd very fast.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 15, 2004)

Can anyone with a better working knowledge of illegal drugs than me care to conjecture what that yellow junk is Charlie's taking?


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## MEG Hal (Oct 15, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Can anyone with a better working knowledge of illegal drugs than me care to conjecture what that yellow junk is Charlie's taking?





My semi informed opinion---Heroin


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## Fast Learner (Oct 15, 2004)

Looks like heroin to me, too. It's normally considered "brown" in color, though that light-brown yellowish seems to be "normal." His withdrawal is going to be hell, hell on Earth.


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## stevelabny (Oct 15, 2004)

time for me to jump back in after not commenting last week.
i still have to believe that the maifestations are real. it obviously cant manifest EVERY thought the any of the survivors have, and some of the things on the island are obviously REAL and not just manifestations. So the question is to figure out how "it" picks and chooses what to manifest.

I loved the quick swerve on "Colonel" Locke being revealed as an office flunky. And the wheelchair bit at the end was nice, and although this could be explained as a shock to his system, it also fits into the mainfestations.

Now whether these manifestations are supernatural like the word manifestations implies, or there is some sort of real-world explanation consisting of covert operations and government doctors experimenting on a group of people, i dunno. But there is a definite connection the thoughts of the survivors and what is happening around them. I think 

whether people are behind "it" or the "it" is intelligent like swrushing suggests, i think there is clearly SOMETHING intelligent on the island with them. 

I agree that the lack of camera on the animals and the plane crash itself is a budget concern and nothing more.

I also thought the Jack not being a "real" currently practicing doctor was brutally obvious from day 1. He comes across like the Dr.Strange origin type. Young rich doctor injures someone, or doctors for money only, then has some problem (injury, alcholoism, cowardice, grief, etc) that causes him to stop practicing.  This is also the main reason why he doesnt want to know about Kate's past...he doesnt want to tell everyone that he wasnt a currently practicing doctor himself.

Also, this fits in with what Rackhir said, that MOST of these people don't want to leave the island for one reason or another.  I tend to like most of Rackhirs speculations.  I could even buy the "theyre all dead" thing the way he explains it.


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## Shallown (Oct 15, 2004)

I was thinking that perhaps Locke's paraplegia was Psychosymatic. I don't know all the basis in reality butin TV reality it is possible that the paralysis is all in his mind. His "Don't tell me what I can't do" may be a self defeating loop. While he says that his unconscious mind keeps him paralyzed not allowing him to actually walk. Some of things about him seemed to suggest this to me. His fantasies with the phone chick and so forth. 

Also would a boss actually make fun of a handicapped man like his was. What if his boss knows its all mental and somehow takes a cruel pleasure giving him crap about it. It seems that supervisor might not take chances in a corporate world of mocking the guy in the wheel chair in front of witnesses. BUt he may mock a person who is not quite all there.

Just an idea that crossed my mind.

I think they are going to throw out way toomany red herrings to figure anything out yet. I am just starting to catalouge clues and seeing which thread into something that may be the island's plot. Especially since I think the show will be much more about the characters than the island. The island may be the biggest red herring yet.

later


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## Negative Zero (Oct 15, 2004)

well, the producers have said that the island _is_ one of the characters on the show, so don't completly discount it.

~NegZ


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## Fast Learner (Oct 15, 2004)

His paralysis may have been psychosomatic, but it may have been a matter of pinched nerves and such that couldn't be operated on, but that the jar from the accident miraculously fixed.

It doesn't explain how he was able to walk, though... he obviously would have had terrible muscle atrophy. Unless... he's schizophrenic, and one personality can walk while the other can't, and he was getting exercise while in the walking personality (who isn't the one that goes to work or was going walkabout), and upon landing on the island the walking personality took over. Heh.


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## Chun-tzu (Oct 16, 2004)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Unless... he's schizophrenic, and one personality can walk while the other can't, and he was getting exercise while in the walking personality (who isn't the one that goes to work or was going walkabout), and upon landing on the island the walking personality took over.




Point of clarification: Schizophrenia is commonly (and mistakenly) equated with Multiple Personality Disorder, but the two are completely different disorders. Schizophrenia is much more common than MPD, and common symptoms include hearing voices, paranoia, and flat affect (lack of emotions). It has nothing to do with multipe personalities, which is extremely rare.

[Edited for clarification.]


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## Silver Moon (Oct 16, 2004)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I think they're just embarrassed to show they were too cheap to go out and film real animals...



Too cheap?   This show has some of the best visuals I've ever seen.  I don't think they've been cheap about anything - I'd bet the per episode costs are very very high.


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## Fast Learner (Oct 16, 2004)

It's funny, right after I posted that and went off and got in my car, I thought "I should have written MPD, d'oh!" I posted the same comment on another board and used schizophrenia there, too. Fortunately there I managed to edit it before anyone commented.

I do know the difference and shouldn't have used the vernacular.

So... I think he's got MPD! Just you wait, you can tell people you heard it from me first.


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## Tinner (Oct 16, 2004)

*What Dreams May Come*

Is what this last episode reminded me of.
Other posters have already made this comment, but I have to agree - I think they're all dead.
The comment of the black woman that her husband wasn't dead, and "Maybe that's what they think about us." really seemed too much of a clue.
And if this guy in the suit really does turn out to be who the preview trailer implied, then I'm thinking it's even more likely that they are all in the afterlife.
You what else this reminds me of? That TBS movie a few years ago with the cowboys trapped in the afterlife ... dangit, what was that called, Perdition? Purgatory? Google is giving me no help here.
It had a similar plot of people in a certain town trapped in the afterlife and not really realizing it. I'm currently leaning towards that thought for Lost too.


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## Psychotic Dreamer (Oct 16, 2004)

I don't think they are going to be giving out any real answers any time soon.  I think they are just going to give us enough information to hang ideas on.  Which is what I like.


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## John Crichton (Oct 16, 2004)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> Too cheap?   This show has some of the best visuals I've ever seen.  I don't think they've been cheap about anything - I'd bet the per episode costs are very very high.



 Agreed.  They have done a wonderful job with the visual aspects of the show.  Sure, the animals were fake.  No big deal.  Should we be expecting that they use real boar?

The ending really got me good.  I knew something was up but quickly forgot about it as the show continued (the initial toe wiggle got my attention).  I can't wait to learn more about the rest of the characters.


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## RedShirtNo5 (Oct 16, 2004)

*Are they dead?*

Personally, I find the theory that they are dead somewhat unsatisfying.  First, it's interesting, but it doesn't really help explain the polar bear or the wierdness of the transmission or the crash itself (any of which of course could simply be red herrings).  Second, it's too much like "and they wake up, and it was all a dream!", with the lack of dramatic tension that entails. 

IMO, they are not dead in the "What Dreams May Come" sense.  On the other hand, they might have died yet be physically incarnated, such as "Inferno" or Riverworld/"To Your Scattered Bodies Go".  Not necessarily alot of difference between that and being stranded in an alternate dimension.

I do like the idea that everyone who is on the island is there because at least subconsciously they wanted to be there, _at least at the time of the crash_.  As the series progresses, we'll get the flashbacks to understand why.  Similarly, if the wish-fulfillment mechanism (if it exists) is based on subconscious desires, the flashbacks can set up how certain "bizarre" effects are related to the castaway's history.  In that sense, the show is really just one big psychological study.  

-RedShirt


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## RedShirtNo5 (Oct 16, 2004)

*Locke*

John Locke, that is.  I'm sure I read Locke in undergrad, but it's pretty fuzzy now.  This seems reliable:



			
				http://www.philosophypages.com/ph/lock.htm said:
			
		

> The fundamental principles of Locke's philosophy are presented in An Essay Concerning Human Understanding (1690), the culmination of twenty years of reflection on the origins of human knowledge. According to Locke, what we know is always properly understood as the relation between ideas, and he devoted much of the Essay to an extended argument that all of our ideas—simple or complex—are ultimately derived from experience. The consequence of this empiricist approach is that the knowledge of which we are capable is severely limited in its scope and certainty.  Our knowledge of material substances, for example, depends heavily on the secondary qualities by reference to which we name them, while their real inner natures derive from the primary qualities of their insensible parts.
> 
> 
> Nevertheless, Locke held that we have no grounds for complaint about the limitations of our knowledge, since a proper application of our cognitive capacities is enough to guide our action in the practical conduct of life. The Essay brought great fame, and Locke spent much of the rest of his life responding to admirers and critics by making revisions in later editions of the book, including detailed accounts of human volition and moral freedom, the personal identity on which our responsibility as moral agents depends, and the dangers of religious enthusiasm. One additional section that was never included in the Essay itself is Of the Conduct of the Understanding, a practical guide to the achievement of useful beliefs about the world.



-RedShirt


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## Bill Scott (Oct 16, 2004)

Tinner said:
			
		

> That TBS movie a few years ago with the cowboys trapped in the afterlife ... dangit, what was that called, Perdition? Purgatory? Google is giving me no help here.
> 
> It had a similar plot of people in a certain town trapped in the afterlife and not really realizing it. I'm currently leaning towards that thought for Lost too.




I liked that movie and I think it was called Purgatory. I'll look it up on IMDB to see if we're right. I know it had Eric Roberts as a black hat and Randy Quade as Doc Holiday

Back on topic, I am starting to buy into the idea that the spirit of the island is causing the thoughts of the survivors to manifest. Here is why I think this

It is pouring down rain so dad can't go look for the dog. Walt, I think that's what the kid's name is, 'wishes' it would stop raining and it does immediately

The Sawyer dude would have to be be an excellent shot to take down a charging bear like he did. Now he missed fatally shooting a guy that can't move at point blank range? I don't think so. I think Sawyer did kill him and Jack 'wished' him back to life

Then Jack tells Sawyer that the marshal will suffer for a long while, I think he said several hours, before he dies and is almost immediately proven wrong. I think the grief stricken Sawyer 'wished' the marshal dead

Then we have what I feel is the clincher which is, or was, Locke's former paralysis. Being close to the fire after the plane crashed, he 'wished' his legs would work and they do. 

As long as I'm on the subject of Locke, I am thinking that he will be a minor villain of the series due to his abused background. I think he knows the secret of the island and wants to keep it to himself for a sense of power


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 16, 2004)

Bill Scott said:
			
		

> The Sawyer dude would have to be be an excellent shot to take down a charging bear like he did. Now he missed fatally shooting a guy that can't move at point blank range? I don't think so. I think Sawyer did kill him and Jack 'wished' him back to life



 I think you have to look deeper into the subtext of the events. Sawyer was trying awfully hard to come across as the big macho guy on the island. I tacked up his killing of the bear as a combination of A) his probable ability to use a gun - might be a hunter or other enthusiast, and/or B) external events we aren't privy to yet. Whatever could bring a polar bear to the tropics and keep it alive could certainly kill it, too, and maybe the shooting was coincidental or meant to throw everyone off.

 But as for killing the marshal, what that confirmed to me was that killing an animal and killing a man are psychologically not the same thing. Sawyer is no more of an executioner than Jack (up to that point at least), despite his macho posturing. Basically, he flinched.



			
				Bill Scott said:
			
		

> Then Jack tells Sawyer that the marshal will suffer for a long while, I think he said several hours, before he dies and is almost immediately proven wrong. I think the grief stricken Sawyer 'wished' the marshal dead



 At least on that point, I pretty sure it was implicit in that scene that Jack "finished off" the marshal. A recurring theme in that episode was that the survivors are not who they were on the mainland anymore; they were "in the wild", as Sawyer put it. One of the ideas that Jack had to come to grips with was that he would not be able to save everyone on the island, and certainly not the horribly wounded marshal. His Hippocratic oath was rendered moot. By mercy-killing the marshal (he goes in the tent, the marshal suddenly expires...you do the math ) Jack's undergoes an important transformation from idealist to realist.

 I guess if you want to you can assign supernatural causes to everything that's happened so far, but I'm just taking a whack at it with Ockam's razor .


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## Negative Zero (Oct 16, 2004)

yeah, i'm not so quick to buy the "too cheap" POV yet. the pilot did cost 10 mil afterall, the most expensive pilot ever made IIRC.

~NegZ


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## stevelabny (Oct 16, 2004)

was speculating the sawyer isnt the tough guy he pretends to be, and is quite probably not as full of testosterone back in the real world.
then speculated that his letter is a dear john letter.
to which i said out loud with everyone in the room with me who knows how i think...
FROM JOHN.


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## dreaded_beast (Oct 19, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Sure, the animals were fake.  No big deal.  Should we be expecting that they use real boar?




Well, don't know if it qualifies as a real boar, but here in Hawaii (where Lost is currently being shot), the locals go up into the mountains with a couple of dogs and hunt wild pigs. From what I've heard, the wild pigs can be as nasty as boars and look like what Locke dragged back. So I would think it would be somewhat easy to get a "wild pig" here, but I don't really no the "logistics" of making Lost, so I don't know.

Anyways, I liked Locke from before, but after this episode, I have to say he has become my favorite character, after Sawyer.

I'm surprised noone has talked about this more, considering this is EN World: Locke is a gamer!


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## John Crichton (Oct 19, 2004)

Yeah, but getting a wild pig to behave is something completely different.  Fake animals are just fine with me.  Unless it is a show about horses or something.  Then you need the real deal.


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## WizarDru (Oct 19, 2004)

That's just the thing: using real animals is a big expense, and getting even trained ones to behave during a shoot is difficult.  Every additional take on a location shot is expensive, too.  I'd wager most of the show's expense is the location shooting, and the special effects a significant, but lower part.


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## Capellan (Oct 20, 2004)

According to last week's TV Guide (and I have no idea how reliable they are), the crew tried to use real pigs, couldn't get them to do what they needed, and so had to go with CGI.


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## Crothian (Oct 21, 2004)

Okay, another good episode.  I'm really liking that Locke he had a good supporting role tonight.  Interesting that they killed off someobne, though I guess it was bound to happen since of the 47 left we know about a dozen.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 21, 2004)

It was e great episode, but it leaves some questions.



Spoiler



such as, what does the doctor's mother refer to as "what he did"? Why was the coffin empty? Was that really his father? Why did his father skitz out and go to Sydney?


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## Chun-tzu (Oct 21, 2004)

The drowning scene at the beginning left me with the same impression as the beginning of the first episode, actually. There were, what, a dozen people standing around on the beach? WTF? Jack is the ONLY one that can swim? Okay, we find out later that the other guy (the lifeguard!) was there, too, but still, I'm left wondering WTF.

In the beginning of the first show, I was amazed that there were so many people apparently just standing around like morons after a plane crash, with no idea what to do. And somehow, Jack is the ONLY one with half a brain in these situations. Now, you could argue that they were in shock, but it still comes off weak to me. Are people really so sheep-like? Locke, Kate, and Sayid all seem to be pretty together. Where were they while all this was going on? I buy that Jack is the best one to lead them. But they don't have to make him some kind of super-hero to show that.


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## Darrin Drader (Oct 21, 2004)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> Are people really so sheep-like?



Put real people into real situations and you might just be surprised. I was in Boy Scouts growing up, so I know how to deal with the outdoors. When I was in college I used to go on a lot of campouts with others who didn't understand the outdoors. You would be surprised how people will just stand around without a clue and rely on those who know what they're doing.


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## Chun-tzu (Oct 21, 2004)

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Put real people into real situations and you might just be surprised. I was in Boy Scouts growing up, so I know how to deal with the outdoors. When I was in college I used to go on a lot of campouts with others who didn't understand the outdoors. You would be surprised how people will just stand around without a clue and rely on those who know what they're doing.




That I can understand, but watching someone drown, and getting up from a plane crash are both _life-or-death_ situations. Isn't it common sense to get _away_ from a plane crash (or car crash) before something bad happens to you? I'd find it much more realistic if we saw some of the others doing something, _anything_, besides standing around like sheep while someone's life is in danger.


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## Truth Seeker (Oct 21, 2004)

Lost has been pick up for a full season.


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## satori01 (Oct 21, 2004)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> The drowning scene at the beginning left me with the same impression as the beginning of the first episode, actually. There were, what, a dozen people standing around on the beach? WTF? Jack is the ONLY one that can swim? Okay, we find out later that the other guy (the lifeguard!) was there, too, but still, I'm left wondering WTF.



People often do freeze in those situations especially when it occurs in water.  I've seen swimmers drowning in water with suffers near by looking on in horror and doing nothing.  Common sense would say for one of the surfers to give up their board to the drowning person, but often times it doesnt dawn on them.

Beyond this, water rescues of drowning persons are probably one of the most dangerous things someone might have to do, and the likelyhood of an untrained "rescuerer" also turning into victom is rather high in rough rip tide like seas.


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## WizarDru (Oct 21, 2004)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> That I can understand, but watching someone drown, and getting up from a plane crash are both _life-or-death_ situations. Isn't it common sense to get _away_ from a plane crash (or car crash) before something bad happens to you? I'd find it much more realistic if we saw some of the others doing something, _anything_, besides standing around like sheep while someone's life is in danger.




Yes, but watching someone drown isn't _your_ life or death situation.  I'm sure there were other folks who could swim, but as satori01 mentions, untrained rescue of a drowning person is dangerous...that's why lifeguards have to be trained for the task.  Rescuing someone from drowing several hundred feet out in the surf?  Intimidating. (and remember, the drowning person was a scuba diver, so she wasn't inexperienced..although I doubt many knew this).

However, in these situations, many folks also just freeze up.  The very famous case of Kitty Genovese (although exaggerated) is the perfect illustration of "bystander effect".  Once Jack and the stuck-up guy went to try an save her, no one else felt the need to do anything, especially since there were other folks there.  The psychological effect is that, in a crowd, people are less likely to help, as they expect someone else will do it.

As for not doing anything after a plane crash...well, there's a reason flight attendants get training for it.  Even then, most survivors need serious counseling to deal with survivor guilt and other issues.  Here's a quote from an article from a psych journal that compares the similarities and differences of crash survivors and Vietnam War veterans:
_"In general, flight attendants reported that their emergency preparedness training as safety professionals served them well, so that they were able to focus on carrying out tasks that contributed to the safety of passengers and their fellow crew members rather than being overwhelmed by fear and shock. After the crash or hijacking was over and they found that they had survived, however, they felt a strong need to process the thoughts and feelings that occurred both during and after the event."_

So, last night several things gelled, for me.

1) Jack has accepted his role as leader.
2) Locke DID see the creature
3) A romance is starting between Charlie and Claire (or becoming more concrete, anyways...the hints have been there for some time).

Was it a Ghost?  What did Jack do?
My theories: No, it was a hallucination, possibly from Jack's subconscious.  The sneakers part still bothers me, though.  I suspect that Jack's dad was addicted to pain-killers and/or alcohol, and Jack learned or KNEW that his father performed surgery while under the influence...and possibly was killing people due to it.  Note the relevance of the memory:  he tells Jack (and really, I think, _himself_) that he doesn't have what it takes, and mentions that a boy died while he was operating on him...while he downs a scotch.  Given the more recent flashbacks, that leads me to believe he was not unlike William Macy's character on ER, just far less empathetic.

Locke: in his element.  His advice certainly shows that he was ready for walkabout, don't it?

Boone and Sawyer proved to be the most odd to me, this episode.  What the hell is up with Boone, anyhow?  He's irritating in the extreme, now...every bit as much as his sister.  Sawyer is just an enigma.  He's an ass, but I don't think he's as bad as he first appears.  He's certainly in a lot of pain, and has no way to properly express it.  I don't like him, but he's an intriguing character...and that's a mark of good writing.

I know Hurley technically isn't a 'main' character...but I love the guy.  He's just so much damned fun, and it's nice to see an actor on a show who's not a  fashion model and also isn't pure comedy relief.  They've managed to make him amusing, without seeming to be the butt of lots of jokes.  Of course, he also presents a challenge, of sorts...if he survives the forty days of season one, he should be loosing considerable weight.  How the actor is going to deal with that, I don't know.


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## jasper (Oct 21, 2004)

Okay I got to see all of last nights episode and been picking up various parts of the others. Is everyone of the passengers nuts or coming in high stressed. The leader had daddy' problems. the cripple was paying 89.95 an hour to talk to phone girl and fell in love with her, the kid ugh etc.  Looks very interesting but it can rapidly become stuck in the Star Trek mode ( we only kill off the extras). 
I willing to set aside my disbelief on the extras and let them be spear carriers. But The fat guy did not sweat at all last night.  Looks like could be a good series just doing cultrue crashes. Hey you could steal from Star Trek NG and steal the language lesson. 
I will try to remember to watch the replay on Saturday.


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## Caius (Oct 21, 2004)

last nights episode was an interesting one, I didn't really like it as much as last weeks though.

What I don't get is why was the coffing empty? Maybe his father was never in the coffin in the first place which in theory might explain why Jack was seeing him all over the island. Or the obvious thing with his father was to make him ready to make the decisions people were looking to him to make, such as finding fresh water.

I wonder if the dolls were on the ship, if not it's strange thing about the island.

as for the whole drowning thing at the beginning, I don't think it was so much to show Jack's nature but to show what the other guy was like. Somehow I get the feeling that something like that is going to come up again with that guy *i don't know his name*


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## fett527 (Oct 21, 2004)

I thought the episode was good, Locke's story last week was just more of a mystery and was more entertaining.  I think most people kind of guessed what Jack's background probably was like, though I didn't see the coffin transport coming.  I am interested to see what they do with Jack's "hallucination" after finding the coffin empty.  I certainly got more interested in the episode as it went along.  Locke so far is making the show for me.  (It's always odd when you have actors on different shows at the same time, especially when you watch them back to back.  Terry O' Quinn plays a General on the West Wing currently as well.)

Caius,
  You mentioned the dolls and where they came from.  I do believe as they panned up to the crashed section of the plane you could see broken doll boxes spilling out of some strewn luggage in the wreckage.  Someone can correct me if that's not how they saw it.


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## Negative Zero (Oct 21, 2004)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> That I can understand, but watching someone drown, and getting up from a plane crash are both _life-or-death_ situations. Isn't it common sense to get _away_ from a plane crash (or car crash) before something bad happens to you? I'd find it much more realistic if we saw some of the others doing something, _anything_, besides standing around like sheep while someone's life is in danger.



 i think you're giving the average person a little too much credit. (as i've been known to do also.) in my experience, the average person is very much like a mindless sheep and actually _needs _someone to tell them what to do. you really ought not to judge the bulk of people by the standards of your gamer friends . oh and, getting away from a plane crash site might be common sense, but common sense is certainly not "common" nor usually enough to overpower the morbid fascination that most people have for disasters/accidents.



			
				Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> ... what does the doctor's mother refer to as "what he did"? Why was the coffin empty? Was that really his father? Why did his father skitz out and go to Sydney?



 i'm with Steve. i think that Jack's not really a doctor. perhaps he couldn't handle med school or residency (not an uncommon occurence). or maybe he he got caught operating "under the influence" like his father, as WizarDru suggests. (a suggestion that has a LOT of merit, i think.) as to why Sydney, it could have just been a conveinent way to get JAck on the plane or there might be a specific attachment to Sydney/Australia for his father.

the coffin could be empty because Jack was never able to get the Sydney authroities to allow his father on the plane. his speech to the ticketing agent didn't seem likely to work. first of all, i doubt she really would have accepted his "i need it to be over" speech. and even if she was moved by it (though i would expect her to be more jaded towards passenger pleas, unless of course she was new) i doubt she would be able to do anything. i don't see how she could have circumvented the customs regulations of the country as an airline employee. he may have simply planned to take the empty coffin back to the US, bury it, and either hope no one exhumes it or try to covertly get the body into it at a later date.

i think that it was "really his father" in the sense that he was who jack needed to make his peace with. but his father is clearly dead and so corporally, it could not be him. unless of course,the whole manifestation idea is true and that powerful to boot.

i find it slightly odd that Locke has become so lucid so quickly. in the flashbacks we were shown that he was slightly off balance mentally. (he was self admittedly in psychotherapy and had a clearly unhealthy attachment to some chic at the pricey end of a 900 number.) then again, the mental healing and his lucidity could have been accelerated by his physical healing. as i've mentioned earlier, his mental imbalance might have even made it possible for his miracle to happen. it seems to be a widely held notion in psudoscience and fantasy that such people are more open to things out of the ordinary than the rest of us.

what's most curious to me at this point is; what the deal is with Boone (God's Friggin Gift To Humanity as televisionwithoutpity.com puts it ... awesome site, btw  thanks Fast Learner!). first he tries to take the gun and ammo in Pilot Pt.2, and last night he steals the water. what's up with that? plus, his reaction to Jack for saving his life is a bit ... odd. though i suppose it could be attributed to guilt, it still felts like it was going against the character he's trying to portray.

i didn't for a minute buy that sawyer stole the water. i knew we were meant to think that he had, but i was sure it was someone else. i agree that he's probably not the badass he's trying to portray. he's likely hiding behind the tough-guy image as a defense mechanism. i was very happy to see that the shot of Kate telling him "get off me" was not nearly as sinister as the preview clip made it seem.

i missed that last few minutes or so of the show, i forgot to pad my TiVo season pass. con someone recap? oh and there was a broken crate of dolls, fett527.

~NegZ


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## Shallown (Oct 21, 2004)

The way I see Jack's story is that his father says he could handle it but he really couldn't. I mean after losing the boy in surgery (when he made his big speech to Jack) he had a drink. I think his drinking continued to the point of binging becuase he couldn't handle it. I think Jack's "Story" is he can handle it despite what his parents have told him. 

The empty coffin I think always was that way since we didn't see the airport person say agree to his impassioned speech. security being what it is today in that industry. I think his smashing it was a way for him to admit it was okay to fail. He was getting out his anger/frustration at failing. 

And Yeah they showed an smashed open box of dolls at the crash site he found.

As far as the seperate sections of plane. I just think that is more plot than reality drivenin that the need goals on the island. Ie finding other sections and such.

I think they really need a gamer to straighten them out. I think crashing on a deserted island is something we might have at least thought about before and I would like to think we wouldn't be wandering around not knowing what to do. But I often think that when I watch TV and movies. Like "Dang a Gamer would never do that... " Of course that may be wishful thinking. My wife keeps saying Locke is the closest thing they have for now and he seems to be doing something.

Later


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## RatPunk (Oct 21, 2004)

It was my impression that the coffin was empty because the airline or customs people wouldn't let his father's body out of the country without all the proper paperwork and such, as was talked about in the airport flashback. Jack seeing his father was an hallucination brought on by all the medical reasons Jack mentioned to Locke (dehydration, stress, lack of sleep) plus his growing unease with being thrust into the leadership role by the other survivors, which was something his father pretty much raised him to believe he couldn't handle.


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## WizarDru (Oct 21, 2004)

Caius said:
			
		

> What I don't get is why was the coffing empty? Maybe his father was never in the coffin in the first place which in theory might explain why Jack was seeing him all over the island. Or the obvious thing with his father was to make him ready to make the decisions people were looking to him to make, such as finding fresh water.
> 
> I wonder if the dolls were on the ship, if not it's strange thing about the island.




The coffin could have been empty because his father's body fell out during the crash, before it landed.  Not likely, though, since it wasn't that banged up.  More likely, the writers are just _messing with us *(TM)*_.   They're trying to create a sense of ambiguity....which is fine, as long as they really do know the answer beforehand.  Twin Peaks greastest failing, IMHO, was that they seemed to have made it up as they went along, so that when they did provide an answer to the initial mystery, it was unsatisfying and (iirc) had inconsistincies with prior clues.

As for the dolls, like fett says, there was a clear shot of a big box of them, still in their original packaging, spilling out of a container.  It was freaky cool, but if it has any relevance beyond that, we'll have to wait and see.


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## Crothian (Oct 21, 2004)

If the body was not allowed on the plane, why would they have an empt coffin?  It is likely the body was there and got dragged away by wild animals.  But I really think people are trying to look at this to logically.  Its a TV show they are going to create situations and just fill in the blanks as they see fit.  

And ya the dolls came from the plane, that seemed obvious. 

So, if someone comes up to you and says "I've seen the eye of the island and its beautiful" or what ever it was that Locke said to Jack, wouldn't you ask for a bit more?  And I don't buy that everyone would sit around and watch someone drown.  But a lot of what the people are doing really is not making any sense, so I kept saying its ajust a TV show no really rooted in reality.


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## Rackhir (Oct 21, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> The coffin could have been empty because his father's body fell out during the crash, before it landed.  Not likely, though, since it wasn't that banged up.  More likely, the writers are just _messing with us *(TM)*_.   They're trying to create a sense of ambiguity....which is fine, as long as they really do know the answer beforehand.  Twin Peaks greastest failing, IMHO, was that they seemed to have made it up as they went along, so that when they did provide an answer to the initial mystery, it was unsatisfying and (iirc) had inconsistincies with prior clues.




I call it the escalation problem, I think Evangellion also suffered from that to a great extent. Twin Peaks remember wasn't really supposed to be much more than a Mini-Series. In fact an ending was shot revealing who Bob was which they showed in the European broadcast version. So I don't think they did have a plan either, if fact I don't even believe there was much if any planning for the end that they did shoot. Lynch just sort of picked this guy off the set (I think it was the same one who did play Bob later though). 

With this sort of show, you have to keep escalating the mystery. It has to be going somewhere, dropped hints and dark suggestions will work for a while, but eventually you have to have them pay off and be resolved/answered in someway. 

Now I think someone posted, that they have planned to have partial resolutions at the end of each season and lesser ones scattered over the course of the series which as I believe was supposed to be 3 yrs according to the post. With fortunately provisions made for wrapping things up, if the fickle whims of the public and broadcasters bring it down sooner. 

So it sounds like they do have a plan and they do have a point. Hopefully we will be looking at a B5 ending and not a Twin Peaks. Though I did rather like the last scene in the TV series being Coop repeatedly smashing his face into the mirror, while someone was asking "Coop, are you Ok?". And then you see an absolutely maniacally grinning expression on Kyle's face as the blood slowly rolls down his face. Not a great ending, but a great sceen at least. Some people claim that there was a movie made, but I do not believe such lies.


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## Caius (Oct 21, 2004)

must have missed the crate full of dolls, thanks guys for clearing that up. there were pretty freaky though, maybe just cause I hate dolls, give me the creeps


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## Negative Zero (Oct 21, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> If the body was not allowed on the plane, why would they have an empt coffin? It is likely the body was there and got dragged away by wild animals. ...



 like i said in my last post: "he may have simply planned to take the empty coffin back to the US, bury it, and either hope no one exhumes it or try to covertly get the body into it at a later date." of course, the wild animal theory makes more logical sense, except that Jack didn't seem to be able to easily get at the coffin. and it didn't seem to have been clawed in any way.



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> ... So, if someone comes up to you and says "I've seen the eye of the island and its beautiful" or what ever it was that Locke said to Jack, wouldn't you ask for a bit more? ...



 i thought the same too. but then, he may have been too pre-occupied with his own issues at the time.



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> ... And I don't buy that everyone would sit around and watch someone drown. ...



 why not? while i have not seen that particular situation too often in real life, exept for that one time when my cousin and i almost drowned in the _exact same way_ as passenger 47 , in just about every instance that a scene like this is shown on tv, and in my own humble experience, that is _exactly_ what has happened. in a crowd, everyone expects someone else to do it. no one ever wants the responsibility or the risk (which is considerable).

~NegZ


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## WizarDru (Oct 21, 2004)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I call it the escalation problem, I think Evangellion also suffered from that to a great extent.




Yeah, I think you've nailed it right there.  I didn't know that Twin Peaks was originally intended as a mini-series.  I didn't really get into it at the beginning, and lost it near the middle.  I thought it was interesting and moody, but unsatisfying at points, though I can't say for sure quite why.

So far, Lost has impressed me with its writing and characters, so I hold hope out that they aren't going to try a keep the central mystery purely a mystery for an extended period of time.  B5 showed that you could reveal the mystery, and then move on from there...which is where I hope they're going.  Every episodes, with the exception of the pilot, is supposed to equate to roughly 48 hours, with the first season being the first 40 days on the island (which is supposed to have significance...a Noah reference, perhaps?).


One thing that occured to me: we don't know that he actually got his father's body on the plane.  I just assumed it at one point, but as I recall it now, we merely saw him beg, not succeed.  He may have just been checking the coffin the way a kid turns on the light, even though he knows there's no monster there.  Given what he'd seen up until that point, that's what I'd do.


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## KnowTheToesToe (Oct 21, 2004)

In regards to why people didn't go after the drowning woman - I think Jack says it pretty clearly towards the end of the episode.  He comes back from the jungle and states that everyone needs to stop thinking for themselves.  That it's obvious that they're going to be on the island for a while and it's time to start working together rather than being individuals.   With everyone "looking out for themselves", they are not thinking that other people may need help as well.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 22, 2004)

I don't think customs would have just taken a body away and put an empty casket on a plane.  They probably boarded the plane not long after Jack's speech to the ticket agent, so I don't think they would have screwed around with calling up a coroner or a funeral home (or whoever gets called in such a case).  Besides, if there hadn't been a body on the plane, why would Jack have opened the coffin with such trepidation?  Why open it at all if you know it's empty?

 I don't think animals got to it either.  As has been said, the casket was in pretty pristine condition for having been in a crash, and more importantly, wild boars wouldn't have closed the lid behind them.


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## WizarDru (Oct 22, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> I don't think customs would have just taken a body away and put an empty casket on a plane. They probably boarded the plane not long after Jack's speech to the ticket agent, so I don't think they would have screwed around with calling up a coroner or a funeral home (or whoever gets called in such a case). Besides, if there hadn't been a body on the plane, why would Jack have opened the coffin with such trepidation? Why open it at all if you know it's empty?



 Well, unless he brought the coffin in his taxi, chances are that a funeral company or the police brought the body to the airport...but taking just the body back is pretty hard to believe.  As for the trepidation about opening it?  Well, he had just chased his father through half the jungle...he was probably worried he woudl jump out at him.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 22, 2004)

I rather disbelieve the animals dragged of Jack's dad's body theory...  I know of only one animal that would think to close the casket, and I don’t see any of the passengers a) going to that side of the island by themselves and/or b) I don’t see Locke removing the body from a casket.


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## RedShirtNo5 (Oct 22, 2004)

*The casket*

Was there some sign that the specfic casket was for Jack's father or that Jack recognized the casket?

Here's the three explanations I can come up with:

Off camera the ticket agent says something along the lines of "we'll see what we can do."  Jack finds the casket, and opens with trepidation, not sure whether it is even his father's casket.  Finding it empty, he concludes that it wasn't his father's casket.  Angry that he can't give his father's body a burial, he smashes the casket. 

Off camera the ticket agent says "Nothing we can do."  Jack finds the casket, and opens with trepidation, wondering if the casket was placed on the plane by accident and not sure whether it is even his father's casket.  Finding it empty, he concludes that it wasn't his father's casket.   Angry that he can't give his father's body a burial, he smashes the casket. 

Off camera the ticket agent says "OK, we'll do it."  Jack finds the casket, and opens with trepidation, having been wierded out by the hallucinations.  Finding it empty, he realizes that he was hallucinating, and concludes that the airline removed the body.   Angry that the agent lied, that his father's body was mistreated, and that he can't give his father's body a burial, he smashes the casket. 

No matter what the agent said, we don't know whether it was the father's casket, or whether the father's body was in the casket but is missing for normal or paranormal reasons.

Side note:  I found the timing of Jack's crying and the discovery of the waterfall interesting.

-RedShirt


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## satori01 (Oct 22, 2004)

We could also be talking a veneer of Miracles re: the empty coffin.


1) Dead pop rising from the grave
2) healing of an cripple ala Locke
3) Jacks last name is Sheppard.
and of course my favorite biblical passage:

Big scary invisible dinosaur eats pilot.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Oct 22, 2004)

satori01 said:
			
		

> Big scary invisible dinosaur eats pilot.




He did gnawed on him but it didn’t shallow so I don't think you can say he ate him...


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## KnowTheToesToe (Oct 22, 2004)

I do have some problems with "theories" of the storyline.....

If the passengers are actually "dead" and are in limbo for where they are destin....then why do people die on the island?   If these people are actually in limbo and some are finally taken to heaven/hell, wouldn't they just disappear?  A "physical body" wouldn't remain....   Just a thought.


I found it odd that they burned the fusiloge of the plane.  HELLLLOOOOO...why not use those pieces for building shelters?  Pull the bodies from the wreckage, and use what can be used for survival.  I know, I know it had been only a few days, but even a few days out there would warrent building some sort of shelter.  Especially when you can't go into the jungle because of the "big bad".


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## KnowTheToesToe (Oct 22, 2004)

I do have some problems with "theories" of the storyline.....

If the passengers are actually "dead" and are in limbo for where they are destin....then why do people die on the island?   If these people are actually in limbo and some are finally taken to heaven/hell, wouldn't they just disappear?  A "physical body" wouldn't remain....   Just a thought.


I found it odd that they burned the fusiloge of the plane.  HELLLLOOOOO...why not use those pieces for building shelters?  Pull the bodies from the wreckage, and use what can be used for survival.  I know, I know it had been only a few days, but even a few days out there would warrent building some sort of shelter.  Especially when you can't go into the jungle because of the "big bad".  

Oh - and next week - can someone start a new thread?  And weekly start a new thread, this one is way too long.    Lost 10/27/04 thread.


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## Rackhir (Oct 22, 2004)

KnowTheToesToe said:
			
		

> I do have some problems with "theories" of the storyline.....
> 
> If the passengers are actually "dead" and are in limbo for where they are destin....then why do people die on the island?   If these people are actually in limbo and some are finally taken to heaven/hell, wouldn't they just disappear?  A "physical body" wouldn't remain....   Just a thought.
> 
> ...




Well to the first question, the body doesn't disappear because the people on the island don't expect it to. After all bodies don't disappear in the real world.

They removed all the useful items from the plane before burning it. As far as using it for shelter, there does seem to be a certain dread/fear of it, probably due to the crash and the rotting bodies. Also they are in the tropics, you know mild warm weather, never gets anything close to cold. The only thing you really need shelter for is keeping the rain off of you and your stuff, which they had already set up.


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## WizarDru (Oct 22, 2004)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> They removed all the useful items from the plane before burning it. As far as using it for shelter, there does seem to be a certain dread/fear of it, probably due to the crash and the rotting bodies. Also they are in the tropics, you know mild warm weather, never gets anything close to cold. The only thing you really need shelter for is keeping the rain off of you and your stuff, which they had already set up.




Well, there are hurricanes and tropical storms to think of...but I don't think they've thought that far ahead, frankly.  They're only now starting to think long-term.  Further, I think there might be some question as to how much they could actually do with the fuselage, with little other than very simple tools.  I think the amount of return versus effort expended wouldn't be worth it...right now.  Eventually, that thing may be the most valuable resource they've got.


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## Steverooo (Oct 24, 2004)

*The Characters (Again):*

There are currently 13 major characters on the series, but we still don't really have that much information on who these characters actually are.

Kate (Evangeline Lilly) - "The Fugitive".

Boone (Ian Somerhalder) - "The Wannabe Lifeguard"/Surfer Dude.

Charley (Dominic Monaghan) - A bass player for Driveshaft, a popular band.  Apparently doing drugs.

Hurley (Jorge Garcia) - "Lardo", the heavy-set guy who can't stand blood. (Obviously not a D&D player!)

Shannon (Maggie Grace) - Boone's manipulative sister. "I'll eat on the rescue boat!"

Claire (Emile De Ravin) - Pregnant girl.

Walt (Malcolm David Keller) - The little boy, Michael's son.

Sayid (Naveen Andrews) - A former Iraqi Republican Guard soldier from the Gulf War, who did telecommunications.

Michael (Harold Perrineau) - "Dad", whose ex-wife just died.  Walt's absentee father.

Vincent, the dog.

Sawyer (Josh Holloway) - "The Jerk with a Gun", self-described most-hated man on the island.

Jack Shepherd (Matthew Fox) - A doctor (we think!), and defacto leader of the band of castaways.

John Locke (Terry O'Quinn) - "The Jerk with the Orange".  Bald-headed "Great White Hunter" who used to be in a wheelchair.

Jin (Daniel Dae Kim) - One half of a non-English speaking (?) Korean couple.

Sun (Yunjin Kim) - The other half of a non-English speaking (?) Korean couple.

Bernard (L. Scott Caldwell) - Dead (?) black guy, husband of Rose, the lady who doesn't fly well.

Rose (?) - The black lady ("I don't fly well!").


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## Crothian (Oct 24, 2004)

47...the scuba diving girl that they introduced so she could die is dead leaving us with 47


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## Steverooo (Oct 24, 2004)

*Nope, 46!*



			
				Crothian said:
			
		

> 47...the scuba diving girl that they introduced so she could die is dead leaving us with 47




As of tonight's repeat, Jack says there're 46.  So who died?  The girl whose name I didn't catch, and the pilot?  Or was he part of the 48, at all?

And did Jack find the tail end of the plane, when he found the coffin?


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## John Crichton (Oct 24, 2004)

Don't forget about the marshall/bounty hunter who captured Kate.

The pilot was not counted in the initial 48.

Swimmer girl & marshall dude = 2 deaths.  The countdown continues.


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## Steverooo (Oct 24, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Don't forget about the marshall/bounty hunter who captured Kate.




Okay, he's the other one, then.  Two down, X to go!    

Did anyone catch the name of the girl?  Did they even mention one for the Marshall?


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## John Crichton (Oct 24, 2004)

Hmmm.  The marshall may have a name but I don't think the swimmer was ever named.

The bigger question is which of the regulars will die first?  We should put odds on it.

Character name and season/episode.


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## Steverooo (Oct 24, 2004)

*Tail Survivors?*

Did Jack find the tail end of the plane, when he found the coffin?

Rose (the lady on the beach) seemed quite sure Bernard was still alive (and Jack didn't really stop to check).  Hey, it could happen...  The pilot was still alive, in the nose section...

So, in Episode 1, we see a dead black man (kinda heavy set) on the beach.  Jack checks him before the wing falls off, and Hurley saves Claire.  Later, (after Jack tells Kate she'll need better shoes if she wants to go look for the nose), we see her taking the boots off this guy...

So, if that wasn't Bernard... then he could be alive in the tail... and if he survived, then others could have, too.  Did the show ever mention how many people, total, were on the flight?  I don't recall seeing it (but I've only seen four episodes).

Well, the trailer for next week said that the island will begin to reveal its secrets...  Tune in, next week!


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## Steverooo (Oct 24, 2004)

And now that I think about it, didn't Jack wake up in a tree?  Everyone else we've seen (except Vincent, the dog, and the pilot) was on the beach...  So Jack was apparently near the tail, and Vincent and the coffin (and maybe or maybe not a polar bear) were in the tail.

So if Vincent survived, and Jack survived, it is likely that others could have (if there were any others).

If Locke could get back the use of his legs, and Claire's baby suddenly start kicking, again, then it's not impossible that Jack's Father could come back to life, as well...  But I don't think that that's what happened!

I still think "The Island is Alive!", and that the plants move, but there's nothing there to be seen.  Locke (who I think in NOT unbalanced, despite his saying that crazy people never think they are) seems to think that the island is wondrous ("Magic!").

So, so far, I think the island is trying to make people "be all that they can be", and able to manipulate things to make it happen... and apparently selectively (Jack saw his Dad, Kate didn't).

Not everything that happens is the island's doing, however.  The scuba diver drowning, the marshall's death, Jack almost falling off a cliff, Boone almost drowning...  But even so, those circumstances were able to be used to help Boone & Jack be all they could, Sawyer grow a bit, Locke be a hero, and Jack save Boone...

So, if the island wants everyone to "be all they can be", and is manipulating things to make that happen...  Locke is ahead of the pack.  He is embracing the situation, and seems several steps ahead of the rest...

So what happens when the castaways arrive at their potential?  Do they never reach it, or are they released, to go back into "the real world"?

Oh well, it's all conjecture!  Just hafta wait and see what's up.


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## John Crichton (Oct 24, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> And now that I think about it, didn't Jack wake up in a tree? Everyone else we've seen (except Vincent, the dog, and the pilot) was on the beach... So Jack was apparently near the tail, and Vincent and the coffin (and maybe or maybe not a polar bear) were in the tail.



Jack woke up on the ground in the jungle right near the beach, if memory serves.


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## fba827 (Oct 24, 2004)

I just saw the latest episodes on the saturday repeat.

The question was posted above as to why Locke denied having seen "the big bad creature"

I have three thoughts (two building off the same idea ...)

  * (the one I am most likley going to believe) that Locke did see it (as it seems almost completely clear that he did see it) BUT he escaped it (ran and hid or so).  However, he denied it because he didn't want to alert the others that he was in harms way as that might make them think he shouldn't be allowed to go off on his own (or whatever) again.  He is happy to be on the island (because of his "miracle") and he likes the freedom that the island presents to him.  To tell the others that he was in danger would present an obstacle for him to go out alone in the future

 * Same as above, except instead of outruning it, he either befriended it or saw a "flaw" in it or figured it out, etc.  But he simply didn't want to even suggest that he figured it out for the same reasons as above (because something about what he determined would mean the end of his freedom)

 * The third possibility (though the one I am less inclined to believe) he returned but brainwashed (in some manner) or a doppleganger...


As for the general basis of the island, at first I was all for the island provides what people are thinking concept.  But, I don't know, I just don't buy that.  Something about it seems to convient and still does not explain everything.   I don't have any better theories so I can't say... 


Finally, a question -- this could very well have been in a part I didn't see (as there are large portions of three episodes I did not get to see) but the guy in the suit that is (hinted at? or bluntly stated as?) the Dr's father.  Has anyone else actually seen and acknowledged the guy?  Or has it so far only been he Dr to see him?  It could be all in his mind... that's all I'm trying to figure out.


Are there any interesting georgprahical points in that area?  'Cause everytime they talk about the plane going down, I have flashes to shows about the bermuda triangle.  I am just wondering if there is a similar geographic area shrouded and myth somewhere between australia and West Coast US (plus the thousand miles off course thing)


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## Crothian (Oct 24, 2004)

No one else is shown to have seen Jack's Dad.

Bermuda Triangle: There was a very interesting show on Discovery that took a different area of the ocean of about the same size as the Bermuda Triangle and showed that around the same number of ship of planes dissapeared in it.  There are lesser know so called mysterious triangles in the Pacific.


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## fba827 (Oct 24, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Jack woke up on the ground in the jungle right near the beach, if memory serves.




Yeah, that is right.  I still have the first episode on Tivo.  He woke up in the jungle not "far" from the beach.  Though they did have him running through the jungle for at least 20 seconds of screen time so I don't know how "close" to the beach he actually was.

I would wager to say that was done mainly to give us (the auidence) a gradual entry point to the scene through his perspective rather than starting off in the midst of chaos on the beach.  They have been using the Dr. as the audience perspective for many things now


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## KingOfChaos (Oct 24, 2004)

I think the people are already dead, they just don't know it yet.  I figured that out last episode when Jack's father was seen walking around the island and then Jack found the water and the coffin, yet his dad's body wasn't in it.

Maybe they're stuck in some sort of purgatory?


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## KingOfChaos (Oct 24, 2004)

KnowTheToesToe said:
			
		

> I do have some problems with "theories" of the storyline.....If the passengers are actually "dead" and are in limbo for where they are destin....then why do people die on the island?   If these people are actually in limbo and some are finally taken to heaven/hell, wouldn't they just disappear?  A "physical body" wouldn't remain....   Just a thought.




Well, maybe whatever is keeping them there doesn't want them to know they're already dead as some sort of test?  So a body is left when they're taken away to keep them from knowing what happened.


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## John Crichton (Oct 24, 2004)

KingOfChaos said:
			
		

> I think the people are already dead, they just don't know it yet.  I figured that out last episode when Jack's father was seen walking around the island and then Jack found the water and the coffin, yet his dad's body wasn't in it.
> 
> Maybe they're stuck in some sort of purgatory?



 I think the creators already debunked this theory.  I could be wrong and I'm too lazy to look for a link at the moment.  I'll look around when I get home.


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## AdmundfortGeographer (Oct 24, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Michael (Harold Perrineau) - "Dad", _whose wife just died_.  Walt's absentee father.




Well, to be sure here... we know that he is Walt's father. We know that Walt's mother just died. But I don't think we can say for certain that Michael was married to the mother of Walt at the time of her death yet, can we?

Also, at this point, my wife and I have been refering to Locke as "The Gamer"

More grist for the speculation-mill. My wife had mentioned to me last week that she thinks there is some background between Sawyer and Kate that has yet to be revealed. Something to possibly back this up... 



Spoiler



In the last episode, when Kate tackled Sawyer as he removed cigarettes from his stash, as Sawyer was underneath Kate he said something to the effect, "I've been waiting for this for 4 years."



*shrug*


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 25, 2004)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I think the creators already debunked this theory.  I could be wrong and I'm too lazy to look for a link at the moment.  I'll look around when I get home.



 John - I read the same thing but I can't remember where.  AICN sounded like it but I can't find the specific mention.  I thought it was in Herc's interview with Damon Lindelof, but a cursory inspection of that couldn't find the reference.  But I KNOW I read it somewhere online.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 25, 2004)

Eric Anondsen said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> In the last episode, when Kate tackled Sawyer as he removed cigarettes from his stash, as Sawyer was underneath Kate he said something to the effect, "I've been waiting for this for 4 years."





Spoiler



Maybe it's just been awhile 

 Actually, what he says is "It's about time ... I made this birthday wish 4 years ago!


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## Fast Learner (Oct 25, 2004)

There's definitely an interview out there with one of the creators (Abrams, I'm pretty sure) who said that there is no magic involved, that everything can be explained through science or pseudo-science.


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## John Crichton (Oct 25, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> John - I read the same thing but I can't remember where.  AICN sounded like it but I can't find the specific mention.  I thought it was in Herc's interview with Damon Lindelof, but a cursory inspection of that couldn't find the reference.  But I KNOW I read it somewhere online.



 Yeah, I thought it was AICN as well.  This is going to bug me ALL night...


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## Crothian (Oct 25, 2004)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> There's definitely an interview out there with one of the creators (Abrams, I'm pretty sure) who said that there is no magic involved, that everything can be explained through science or pseudo-science.




Can't magic be explained through pseudo science??


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## Fast Learner (Oct 25, 2004)

Sometimes, but my interpretation is certainly that the purgatory theory, for example, is pretty much pure magic, at least by reasonably common definitions of "magic" and "psuedo-science".


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## fba827 (Oct 25, 2004)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> There's definitely an interview out there with one of the creators (Abrams, I'm pretty sure) who said that there is no magic involved, that everything can be explained through science or pseudo-science.




alien experiments ...


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## Fast Learner (Oct 25, 2004)

Aye, that certainly qualifies as pseudo-science.


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## Steverooo (Oct 25, 2004)

*27 October*

Wednesday, October 27, 8/7c
"House of the Rising Sun"



Spoiler



Walt and the others are shocked when Michael is brutally beaten, but only the non-English-speaking Jin and Sun know the truth behind the attack. Meanwhile Kate, Jack, Sawyer and Sayid argue about where the survivors should camp — on the beach, where they're more likely to be seen, or in a remote inland valley where fresh water abounds; and Locke discovers Charlie's secret.


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## Steverooo (Oct 25, 2004)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Well, to be sure here... we know that he is Walt's father. We know that Walt's mother just died. But I don't think we can say for certain that Michael was married to the mother of Walt at the time of her death yet, can we?




From ABC.com:

"Michael (Harold Perrineau) has just gained custody of his nine-year-old son, Walt (Malcolm David Kelley), after the death of his ex-wife — they are a father and son who don't even know each other."


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## WizarDru (Oct 25, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> From ABC.com:
> 
> "Michael (Harold Perrineau) has just gained custody of his nine-year-old son, Walt (Malcolm David Kelley), after the death of his ex-wife — they are a father and son who don't even know each other."




I suspect that we'll find out that Michael didn't even know he had a son until just recently...or that he hadn't seen him since he was born.   One of my favorite scenes, so far, was Locke waking him up to tell him where the dog was, so he could be the one who 'found' the dog. 

And the longer we go, the less I'm willing to accept the 'they're all dead' or 'island of magical wishes' theories.  They just feel too cheesy, to me, to be legitimate.  If either proved true, they'd have to do a good job of delivering it, or I think it would seem like a cop-out.


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## Sarigar (Oct 27, 2004)

E!'s website has an article of theories on their site today.  Of course, everything they mention has been questioned here first.


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## Mark (Oct 28, 2004)

Are they stealing our silly theories and making them their own?!?! 

She caught me by surprise, just now, in the clearing where the firewood was being chopped.  This show just gets more and more interesting...


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## Dagger75 (Oct 28, 2004)

Okay I had to step away from the TV for a minute.  I heard the Korean lady say soemthing in English and missed it up to where the Micheal was threating the Korean guy with the axe and dropping a nice watch at his feet.

 What did she say to Mike?


 Argggh.


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## Crothian (Oct 28, 2004)

Korean Guy attacked Micheal because the watch Michael had was belonged to the Korean Girls father.

What i missed was some of the sub titles in the flashbacks, was the Korean Guyy abusive and that's why Korean girls was going to leave him?  And at the airport she was waiting for something/ some one...did it just not appear or did she change her mind?


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## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 28, 2004)

I saw the 



Spoiler



english


 but coming, when the one person said in the previous scene, 



Spoiler



Have you been taking your lessons?


.

So now there are dead people from 40-50 years ago on the island.  So presumably there are at least three groups of castaways - 40-50 years ago, the french woman and unknown others from 16 years ago, and the current batch.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Oct 28, 2004)

I missed the explanation Jin gave for the blood in the bathroom - all I caught was the "I'm doing this for us" bit.  Could someone clue me in?

Also, I think its about time to go to threads for each individual episode - this thread is starting to get a little unwieldy.


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## Crothian (Oct 28, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I missed the explanation Jin gave for the blood in the bathroom - all I caught was the "I'm doing this for us" bit.  Could someone clue me in?
> 
> Also, I think its about time to go to threads for each individual episode - this thread is starting to get a little unwieldy.




I like the unwieldy thread 

The explanation for the blood was "I do whatever your father asks of me" or something like that.  So, he did violence that the father requested.


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## Dagger75 (Oct 28, 2004)

I am thinking Yakuza and the Korean girl wants out.  She just coudn't bring herself to leaver her husband.


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## Crothian (Oct 28, 2004)

Aren't the Yakuza Japanese?


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## BluWolf (Oct 28, 2004)

Yes they are but you do have Korean Triad gangs.

Similar.


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## Steverooo (Oct 28, 2004)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> I am thinking Yakuza and the Korean girl wants out.  She just coudn't bring herself to leaver her husband.




Yakuza is Japanese, not Korean.  The Triads, maybe?


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## fett527 (Oct 28, 2004)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> Okay I had to step away from the TV for a minute.  I heard the Korean lady say soemthing in English and missed it up to where the Micheal was threating the Korean guy with the axe and dropping a nice watch at his feet.
> 
> What did she say to Mike?
> 
> ...




She said she needed his help and they cut away.  Next thing with them you see is the scene of Mike confronting Jin and cutting him free.


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## fett527 (Oct 28, 2004)

Crothian said:
			
		

> Korean Guy attacked Micheal because the watch Michael had was belonged to the Korean Girls father.
> 
> What i missed was some of the sub titles in the flashbacks, was the Korean Guyy abusive and that's why Korean girls was going to leave him?  And at the airport she was waiting for something/ some one...did it just not appear or did she change her mind?




Jin did not become abusive, but became to entrenched with his work.  She was being ignored and was lonely.  Then you see Jin coming home with the blood and as was mentioned he is obviously doing some violent work for her father.  She decides she wants out and has an escape route set up by a friend at the airport.  She decides she still loves Jin, can't go through with it and gets on the plane.


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## WizarDru (Oct 28, 2004)

Steverooo said:
			
		

> Yakuza is Japanese, not Korean.  The Triads, maybe?




Sorry, the Triads are Chinese (as are the Tongs).  The Korean gangs, afaik, don't have a specific name.

That said, I don't think that's who he's working for.

First, a quick summary of what happened in the flashbacks:


Spoiler



Jin, we discover, was once a humble waiter.  Sun, on the other hand, was obviously born into a family of wealth and privlege.  A classic scenario plays out, but Jin is young and ambitious, and we soon find he's managed to convince Sun's father to approve their marriage [since Jin refuses to elope].  However, the cost is that he will work for Sun's father, first as a management trainee for a year, then for a year at the factory.  Sun is not happy at the turn of events, but he's doing it 'for us'.

Time passes, and while Sun and Jin's wealth increases, their relationship worsens.  Jin is working long, late hours, and gets her a pet dog to keep her company, since he isn't around as often as he'd like.  They become richer and richer, but their marriage has become hollow.  Things go from bad to worse when Jin rushes in one evening, covered in blood.  Sun, who had fallen asleep on the couch waiting for him, rushes to his side, afraid he's hurt.  He's not...the blood is someone else's.  When Jin demands to what exactly Jin _does_ for her father, Sun angrily tells him he does _"whatever your father tells me to do.....I do it for US."_ 

It becomes clear the Jin has become someone else, someone who is willing to do anything to succeed.  He's lost sight of the fact that in procuring a future and protecting his wife, he's neglected the present.  He has become more restrictive, more demanding (perhaps more traditional?, in some ways).  Sun decides she needs to get out and escape her marriage, both from Jin and from her father.  Under the false pretense of an interior decorator, she makes arrangements to 'disappear', including taking lessons.  Lessons, it later becomes clear, to speak English.  However, when the time comes to leave her husband at the airport, she tearfully choses not to.  The metaphor of a single flower returns, showing us that maybe the original Jin is still there, trapped but doing his best.  She still loves him, and knows that everything he does, he does for her.  Or at least, that's how I saw it...one could probably make a case for her being scared...but I don't think that's the case.  And for the record, we never saw Sun abused, not once.  Jin can be a jerk, but he's a jerk who loves his wife....I do think that she fears his rage, however.



Now then, about Sun's father: I'm pretty sure he's just a powerful business owner who has no scruples about breaking legs, as opposed to a crime-lord.  Sun is clearly suprised that her father uses such tactics, and more suprised that Jin would be participating in it.  Their relationship is defined by her father, who we never see.  What we can deduce is that he's taken Jin under his wing, and is grooming him as his successor (clearly seeing potential in the ambitious Jin beyond his original position....I'm guessing Sun has no brothers).

As for speaking English, prior to this episode I suspected she might and was denied by Jin.  Now we see that she could, but Jin didn't know about it.  The greater question is, can Jin speak English....and if so, why hasn't he?  He clearly understands it, based on the translations we've seen.

Now about the watch: Walt's dad found it on the beach two days after the crash...unbeknownst to him, it belonged to Jin, and was apparently a gift from his father (Sun wasn't entirely clear, here).  It was a point of honor to Jin that he assumed that it had been stolen, not found.  In a fit of anger, he attacked the dad.  Clearly, he has become completely entrenched as seeing Sun's father as his own father figure and racism may certainly be a factor.  Only time will tell.

Either way, another great episode that not only manages to reveal more about the characters (and plenty of suprises about them, IMHO), but also advanced the greater plot.  The factionalizing has finally begun, which I expected earlier than this.  The beachers versus the cavers is too simple an analysis, but I'm interested to see what happens from this point.  Glad to see Charley getting to face his drug problem, and waiting to see how this develops.

Oh, and Locke is now officially my favorite character, in a show full of really good characters.


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## Datt (Oct 28, 2004)

OPened a new thread for discussion: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?p=1825350


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## Negative Zero (Oct 28, 2004)

at first brush, i thought the episode was a little lackluster, but the more i think about it, the more i like it. the revelations about Jin and Sun were right on time. at this point, they were the ones i was most curious about. i did catch the "have you been taking your lessons" comment, so the english didn't surprise me, but now i can't help wonder if that didn't refer to something else.

also, i agree with WizarDru, the episode clearly shows that Jin is not abusive. and also seems to do alot to define their relationshp with each other and Sun's father. although, the comment from the "decorator" that her father will do everything he can to find her, did seem to have an ominous ring to it. but that could be misdirection as well 

~NegZ


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## Sarigar (Oct 28, 2004)

So, who's taking care of Sun's dog, the interior decorator?  I found that request a little weak.  What was she supposed to do when she came back to Jin after Sun disappeared, say, "Hi, I'm the interior decorator and I want to take care of your dog since your wife is now missing."
Or, maybe the dog's on the island somewhere?


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## Negative Zero (Oct 28, 2004)

i kinda got the impression that it was more of a comfort gesture than a real request. obviously, it wasn't a realistic expectation, it seemed more of a preoccupation to keep Sun from focusing on her difficult choice.

~NegZ


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## Steverooo (Oct 29, 2004)

Cave = Dark

Beach = Light?


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## Chun-tzu (Oct 29, 2004)

Sarigar said:
			
		

> So, who's taking care of Sun's dog, the interior decorator?  I found that request a little weak.  What was she supposed to do when she came back to Jin after Sun disappeared, say, "Hi, I'm the interior decorator and I want to take care of your dog since your wife is now missing."




Jin is the only one who thinks that she's the interior decorator. We don't know exactly what she does, but she was Sun's confidant and advisor in how to escape her family. Anyway, since the plan was for Sun to escape while they were in Australia (just before they boarded the plane that crashed on the island), presumably it would have been easy enough for the advisor to get into Sun's house and take the dog, while Jin was still away. If Sun trusted her with a getaway plan, then I'm sure Sun would trust her with a house key.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 29, 2004)

Did they ever explain why Sun & Jin were in Australia, waiting for a flight to L.A.?  My first thought was "connecting flight", but Sydney's awfully far from Seoul.  In this day and age, I'm sure you can get a direct flight from Korea to the western U.S.


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## Sarigar (Oct 29, 2004)

Holy %#$*&@^, I never thought about that.  There is more story even from her side.  They either did have a connecting flight, which means they were possibly on their way somewhere, or they were going to Australia, which means they were returning home.  Did they ever say where they were flying to?  Or, were they already in Australia, they lived there, both of them speak English, and her "lessons" were for something different.  Great, now we have a whole new can of worms!


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## Aaron2 (Oct 29, 2004)

Tarrasque Wrangler said:
			
		

> Did they ever explain why Sun & Jin were in Australia, waiting for a flight to L.A.?  My first thought was "connecting flight", but Sydney's awfully far from Seoul.  In this day and age, I'm sure you can get a direct flight from Korea to the western U.S.




There was a voice on the overhead speaker while they were waiting that said they were on a flight to Singapore. I guess, it went from Sinagpore to Sydney to LA. Maybe there was some "business" to take care of along the way.


Aaron


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Oct 30, 2004)

Aaron2 said:
			
		

> There was a voice on the overhead speaker while they were waiting that said they were on a flight to Singapore. I guess, it went from Sinagpore to Sydney to LA. Maybe there was some "business" to take care of along the way.
> 
> 
> Aaron



 The P.A. voice said there was a plane to Singapore boarding.  Doesn't mean that was their flight.  And Singapore isn't really on the way to either Seoul or L.A.  

 I think it was pretty clear from the first episode that the plane was on a direct route from Sydney to LAX.


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