# Occult Slayer... ideas and opinions please.



## Rashak Mani (Feb 1, 2004)

Thinking of making an occult slayer (Complete Warrior). I have high Wis and Str. Other stats are good... only two are 11 and 12.Tending towards starting as a cleric and slightly possible getting 2 lvls of melee types in order to get quicker acess to the Occult Slayer PrC.

Pre Requisites:   Know Arcana 4, Spellcraft 3   BAB +5

So what do you think if the Occ.Slayer ? Good, bad or useless ? 
Any suggestion of which clas fits in better ? Druid maybe ?  Is it viable going pure melee type ?
Anyone ever used this PrC ?

  Thanks


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## Saeviomagy (Feb 2, 2004)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> Thinking of making an occult slayer (Complete Warrior). I have high Wis and Str. Other stats are good... only two are 11 and 12.Tending towards starting as a cleric and slightly possible getting 2 lvls of melee types in order to get quicker acess to the Occult Slayer PrC.
> 
> Pre Requisites:   Know Arcana 4, Spellcraft 3   BAB +5
> 
> ...



It seems like a really good source of magical defense for a warrior type. Dipping into arcane spellcasters or even clerics in order to join it quicker seems like a bit of a waste - I'd try to do it with some sort of pure melee.


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## Rashak Mani (Feb 2, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> It seems like a really good source of magical defense for a warrior type. Dipping into arcane spellcasters or even clerics in order to join it quicker seems like a bit of a waste - I'd try to do it with some sort of pure melee.




   The problem is spending those skill points getting cross class skills like Know.Arcana and Spellcraft. BTW going pure melee makes it faster if I could find the skill points. Maybe using the new ranger.


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## SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS (Feb 2, 2004)

one of the pcs from my City if the spider queen game:

monk 2 fighter 4 ocult slayer 4

BAB/grab +9/+18; HP 97; Sv For +15, Ref +14, Will +15; Init +11; Spd 40 ft;  

Str 20 Dex 24 Con 18 Int 12 Wis 18 Cha 8 

Skills: hide +17, Climb +13, tumble +12, jump +20, Know(arcana) +5, sense motive +7, spellcraft +16

Feats: EWP(spiked chain), imp init, Wepon focus(spiked chain), weapon spec(spiked chain), mage slayer, power attack, Combat reflexes(b), imp grap (b), weapon finese.


AC: 26 (+7 dex, +5 monk, +3 armor, +1 deflection), FF 19, Touch 23.

atk: +2 adamantite spiked chain +19/+14 (2d4+11)
     MW Composite str +5 long bow +17/+12 (1d8+5, crit x3)
     Unarmed +16/+11 or +14/+14/+9 (1d6+5)      

Class abilities: Flurry of blows(-2), unarmed strike (d6), evasion, Magic defence +2, weapon bond, vicious strike, mind over magic 2/day, nondetection cloak (CL 4), Auravision.

Equip: Gloves of dex +4, +2 adamantite spiked chain, headband of wis +2, belt of str +2, amulet of health +2, bracelets of armor +3, ring of prot +1, vest of res +2, boots of striding and spriting, cloak of elven kind. potions of fly x2, potion of haste, potion of cure serious wounds, 3x potion of cure light wounds.


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## Rashak Mani (Feb 2, 2004)

SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS said:
			
		

> one of the pcs from my City if the spider queen game: monk 2 fighter 4 ocult slayer 4




   City of the Spider Queen is a tough one... how well does your occult slayer fare ?


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## Cheiromancer (Feb 2, 2004)

This build is for a dwarf.  32 point buy, but there is lots of room for variation.

Initial stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 8
After racial Mods: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 6

1. Ranger 1- FE, Track*, Weapon Focus: Light Mace
2. Fighter 1- Combat Reflexes*
3. Ranger 2- TWF*, Lightning Mace (style)
4. Fighter 2- Improved Initiative*
5. Ranger 3- Endurance*, +1 str
(skills: craft trapmaking 5 ranks, knowledge arcana 4 ranks (CC), knowledge dungeoneering 2 ranks, knowledge geography 8 ranks, move silently 2 ranks, spellcraft 3 ranks (CC), survival 2 ranks= 33 skill points out of 40 + 8 x int bonus)
6. Occult Slayer 1- magical defense +1, weapon bond, Blind Fight
7. Occult Slayer 2- vicious strike, mind over magic 1/day
8. Occult Slayer 3- auravision, magical defense +2, +1 Str
9. Occult Slayer 4- mind over magic 2/day, nondetection cloak, Improved Critical: Light Mace
10. Occult Slayer 5- blank thoughts, magical defense +3
11. Fighter 3
12. Fighter 4- Weapon Specialization: Light Mace*, Improved TWF (Dex 17), +1 Dex
13. Barbarian 1- fast movement, rage 1/day
14. Barbarian 2- uncanny dodge
15. Dark Hunter 1- improved stonecunning, Power Critical: Light Mace
16. Horizon Walker 1- underground (120 foot darkvision), +1 Str
17. Dark Hunter 2- enhanced darkvision (+30 feet)
18. Dark Hunter 3- sneak attack +1d6, General Feat
19. Horizon Walker 2- desert (no fatigue)
20. Horizon Walker 3- plains (+4 spot), +1 Str

The Occult Slayer's magical defense bonuses (against spells and spell-like abilities) synergize well with a dwarf's innate bonus. The +1d6 damage from weapon bond against creatures with spells or spell-like abilities helps against anything from dragons to demons. 

Auravision is a free action, though only the presence of magical auras can be found, not their type. Vicious strike is useful if you have to guard a wizard- the readied action to attack does double damage if it succeeds. Nondetection cloak is not as powerful as it sounds- a caster who makes a level check DC 20 can overcome it. Blank thoughts, however, gives immunity to mind-affecting abilities, which is worth an incredible amount. It means, though, that the good will saves provided by the class are rendered irrelevant.

Probably the best ability is mind over magic. A spell turning effect that can be activated as a free action. It would be wise to invest heavily in spellcraft so that one uses it on a worthwhile spell. This can turn the tide of a battle in which magic is involved!

Skill choices early on in the build meet the pre-reqs for later classes. An incredible 150 foot darkvision is eventually achieved. Immunity to fatigue, a little sneak attack damage, improved speed (from barbarian)... nothing earth shattering in the final levels, but BAB is good, Fort saves are very good, weapon specialization is accessble, the character is immune to mind affecting effects, and can actually reflect some magical attacks.

The problem with builds that rely on Ranger bonus feats is that heavy armor can't be worn. And if you have TWF or archery effects, a shield is problematic (except possibly using Shield Bash). In this build the Ranger level "unlocks" the skills needed for the Horizon Walker (otherwise Knowledge: Geography would reach 8 ranks only at level 13), provides a favored enemy bonus and lots of skill points. Track is fairly small bonus. This build requires 11 cross-class skill ranks (4 knowledge geography, 4 knowledge arcana, 3 spellcraft), or 22 skill points. An intelligence of 12 is needed for a non-human to meet the requirements, even if Ranger levels are used to purchase the pre-req's for Occult Slayer.

The "Horizon Slayer"

1. Ranger 1- Track*, Improved Initiative
2. Fighter 1- Bonus Feat
3. Fighter 2- Bonus Feat, Endurance
4. Fighter 3
5. Fighter 4- Bonus Feat
6. Horizon Walker 1- desert (immune to fatigue), General Feat
7. Occult Slayer 1
8. Occult Slayer 2
9. Occult Slayer 3- General Feat
10. Occult Slayer 4
11. Occult Slayer 5
12+ Horizon Walker- General Feat

If your Dex is 16 (or higher), use mithral Full-Plate+2 and a shield +2 instead of having +3/+3. It is cheaper, and your skill checks and saves are better.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Feb 2, 2004)

Hex Blade is definately the way to go for Occult Slayers as they get Arcane Resistance (Cha mod to saves vs. arcane spells) and Mettle (evasion but for Fort/Will), my PCs just faced off against 2 of them yesterday, mwuhahahah 

Charles and Richard Ordune, male human Hex Blade 5/Occult Slayer 5: CR 10; Medium-size Humanoid (human); HD 5d10+5d8+20; hp 110; Init +5; Spd 40 ft; AC 21; Melee +14/+9 Greatsword (2d6+4 +1d6 elemental); AL LN; SV Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +9 (Increase by +8 vs. spells); Str 14, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16.
Skills and Feats: Concentration +11, Diplomacy (Charles) +12, Intimidate (Richard) +12, Knowledge (Arcana) +12, Sense Motive +11, Spell craft +14; Double Team (+4 when flanking), Expertise, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Greatsword).
Equipment: +1 Flaming (Charles) or Shocking (Richard) Greatsword, +2 Full Plate Armor, Cloak of Resistance +2.
Spells Known/Per Day (Expeditious Retreat, cast)
Hexblade Powers: Hexblade’s Curse 2/day (Free action within 60‘, -2 penalty to attack rolls/saves/ability-skill checks/weapon damage rolls for 1 hr. unless victim makes a save vs. DC 15), Arcane Resistance, Mettle, Summon Familiar (Weasel), Bonus Feat (useless).
Occult Slayer Powers: Magical Defense +3, Weapon Bond (+1d6 to spell casters), Vicious Strike (double damage if readied to disrupt spellcasting), Mind of Magic 2/day (Spell Turning as a 10th level spell caster), Auravision (Detect Magic as free action), Nondetection Cloak (Caster level 5), Blank Thoughts (immune to mind-affecting effects).


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## SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS (Feb 2, 2004)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> City of the Spider Queen is a tough one... how well does your occult slayer fare ?





I realy don´t know, it is a replacement pc, his last one was killed by the vampire cleric... I remade all the NPCs of the adventure (to make them compatible with 3.5 and well all my players are min-maxers I as a DM can min-max too) But it look good, good AC good saves good attack, and the mage killer feat for the miniatures handbook.. I love it :-D


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## Taren Seeker (Feb 2, 2004)

Consider the utility of an Archer OS..using Manyshot on the readied action to disrupt, you would be an excellent mage killer. If not, the spiked chain is great for the reach.

6 ranger, cross class into Kn: Arcana and Spellcraft, archery path, favored enemy Humans +4 and maybe Aberrations +2, or another humanoid race.


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## James McMurray (Feb 2, 2004)

I like the Hex Blade idea. Not sure what level they get Mettle at, but taking that many levels and puting the rest into fighter could work pretty well.

I hadn't even considered Taren's idea of an archer, very nice. Does the class require melee weaponry? I can't remember.

A way to partially mimic this would be to get a Sword of Readiness from A&EG. It allows you to ready full attacks if you don't move more than 5' that turn. Not as useful if they move away as an archer's readied many shot would be, but still could be nice.


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## Felix (Feb 2, 2004)

I dig the OS, and was thinking of taking some levels of it with my Forsaker, but my DM pointed out something interesting to me.

Sure, it's flavor text, and not a RULE, but the description of the class notes that Occult Slayers have more than abilities to defeat magic... they think that magic is more than mortals should be allowed to wield. That's why they go around whoping spellcasters. 

If you hold true to this flavor of the class, you can't travel with any spellcasters, or cast any spells that you yourself are able to cast through class abilities. This causes a big problem with party unity and cohesion. I think that is what makes this PrC work... it gives some badass abilities, but at the cost of being hostile to _anyone_ that wields magic.

That is, of course, only if you hold true to the flavor text. My DM is, and the idea is out for my Forsaker. Mechanics wise, all those builds look good, and a Forsaker+OS would be wicked cool.


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## James McMurray (Feb 2, 2004)

Don't forsakers also loathe everything magical? How is it ok for one to travel with spellcasters and not ok for the other?


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## Grazzt (Feb 2, 2004)

Felix said:
			
		

> If you hold true to this flavor of the class, you can't travel with any spellcasters, or cast any spells that you yourself are able to cast through class abilities. This causes a big problem with party unity and cohesion. I think that is what makes this PrC work... it gives some badass abilities, but at the cost of being hostile to _anyone_ that wields magic.




Yep- that's pretty much it. Magic is not for the occult slayer.

As a side note, the Occult Slayer was in Dragon many issues ago, and was written/designed by me and Kolja Liquette (SonofaPreacherman on ENWorld, and even though SOMEONE at Dragon left my name off the article credits I got paid, so its cool )


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 2, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> I like the Hex Blade idea. Not sure what level they get Mettle at, but taking that many levels and puting the rest into fighter could work pretty well.



If you're gonna have access to arcane spells, why not skip the fighter and invest in dragon disciple? The uberness!


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## Rashak Mani (Feb 2, 2004)

James McMurray said:
			
		

> Don't forsakers also loathe everything magical? How is it ok for one to travel with spellcasters and not ok for the other?




  I think both are hostile to magic... but not so strongly they cannot operate with spellcasters. Its silly to play them as totally hateful of magic AND magic users in a magic full world. They can be like vegeterians... but they exclude magic/"meat" from their diet instead... but live and let live non-veggies.

My occult slayer will have a disdain only or mostly for arcane spellcasters with emphasis for evil spellcasters. (though any arcane magic makes me suspicious at first).


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## Felix (Feb 2, 2004)

Yeah, Forsakers are magitarians; they obstain from using any. Occult Slayers don't want anybody to eat meat... or use magic...

So if you go to the Outback with your vegitarian buddy and he has no problem with your 20oz porterhouse but he only has the potato soup, he's a Forsaker. If, on the other hand, he whallups you upside the head, shoves the porterhouse down your shirt, and proceeds to beat up the chefs, he's an Occult Slayer. 

*shakes Graz'zt's hand*
Nice PrC you made there. Give regards to SoaPM.


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## Taren Seeker (Feb 2, 2004)

Yup, OS works with missile weapons.

Also consider using the greatbow and taking a level of EWM for the ability to shoot while threatened without provoking AoO's. With you readying vs enemy spellcasters the rest of your party can operate unhindered.

As for the flavor text, you can work with a spellcaster, but it's tricky. My take on it is that my PC worships Wee Jas. All arcane spellcasters will be viewed with suspicion but my PC is also a realist. He knows that Mages are powerful and you can't just whack every one you meet without becoming an even greater target. As long as a mage that he travels with shows the proper appreciation for his own mystic powers and the teachings of both Wee Jas and Boccob, then that mage can live and contribute. Besides as a source of information such a mage would be invaluable.

He's not a butcher, he's a surgeon. Worst cases first.


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## Taren Seeker (Feb 2, 2004)

Grazzt...VERY nice work. The number of times my Living Greyhawk fighter/rogue Spiked Chain weilder has been victimized by mages made this class a must have.

After 3 years of playing the character I finally found a PrC that fit his abilities and temperment.

*shakes your hand too*

*note the Ranger/OS/EWM build is one that I designed and will try out as well...with 2 lvls of EWM for the close combat shot and ranged disarm.


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## Rashak Mani (Feb 3, 2004)

> 6. Horizon Walker 1- desert (immune to fatigue), General Feat




   Why pick a lvl of Horizon Walker before Occult Slayer ? Am I missing something ? Immune to Fatigue so important ?


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## Cheiromancer (Feb 3, 2004)

Rahak Mani said:
			
		

> Why pick a lvl of Horizon Walker before Occult Slayer ? Am I missing something ? Immune to Fatigue so important ?




Depends on your intelligence, really.  The CC skills to qualify for Occult Slayer can be very expensive, and the 4+int ranks from a level of Horizon Walker are thus quite helpful.

And if a DM requires role-playing to get into a prestige class, it is better to meet the requirements and gain a level early.  Then it is unproblematic to add other levels later on.  The terrain can be whatever you want- I just think the immunity to fatigue is the best ability for a low-level horizon walker.


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## Zaruthustran (Feb 4, 2004)

Felix said:
			
		

> I dig the OS, and was thinking of taking some levels of it with my Forsaker, but my DM pointed out something interesting to me.
> 
> Sure, it's flavor text, and not a RULE, but the description of the class notes that Occult Slayers have more than abilities to defeat magic... they think that magic is more than mortals should be allowed to wield. That's why they go around whoping spellcasters.
> 
> If you hold true to this flavor of the class, you can't travel with any spellcasters, or cast any spells that you yourself are able to cast through class abilities. This causes a big problem with party unity and cohesion. I think that is what makes this PrC work... it gives some badass abilities, but at the cost of being hostile to _anyone_ that wields magic.




Er, I didn't get that at all. Sure they think that magic is more than mortals should be allowed to wield, but I didn't see anything that says that they hate magic or can't use it themselves.

Forsakers forsake all magic. That's their thing. Okay. So, they don't use magic.

Occult Slayers kill irresponsible magic users. That's their thing. Okay. So, they kill magic users.

One could make a Wizard occult slayer that uses his magic to keep others from using magic. In that way he'd be like a vigilante: a criminal who really hates other criminals, and who routinely breaks the law in order to punish lawbreakers.

Certainly a dedicated Occult Slayer would use the best tools available to accomplish his mission, including the best magical gear he could afford. Of course, he'd probably first commission a powerful magic weapon and then slay the creator once it's made.  And he'd chose as companions those that can best help him accomplish his mission: since the occult slayer is a fighter class, he'd chose as companions a rogue, a wizard, and a cleric. Sure, he'd probably plan on killing or at least reforming the wizard and cleric. But he'd have no problem travelling with them, as long as they're responsible with their abilities and help him out.

I don't see anything in the flavor text and certainly not in the rules (unlike the Forsaker) that says that Occult Slayers can't or won't use magic. Heck, some of the *class abilities* are supernatural/magical.

-z


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## Creamsteak (Feb 4, 2004)

Drow hexblade to OS is the way to go, but only works if an Occult Slayer and the Hexblade are compatible.

Spell resistance 11+classlevel and an additional +2 + Charisma bonus + Occult slayer bonus vs. spells and spell-likes and an additional +2 vs. enchantment spells and spell-likes, plus drow get bonuses to the stats you need for the class. Means, on average, a 45% chance to get spell resistance against spells that qualify, and if charisma bonus is +5 or better you should be deflecting an extra 45% of spells thrown your way. And, AFTER THAT, comes the occult slayer abilities...


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## Rashak Mani (Feb 4, 2004)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Depends on your intelligence, really.  The CC skills to qualify for Occult Slayer can be very expensive, and the 4+int ranks from a level of Horizon Walker are thus quite helpful.
> 
> And if a DM requires role-playing to get into a prestige class, it is better to meet the requirements and gain a level early.  Then it is unproblematic to add other levels later on.  The terrain can be whatever you want- I just think the immunity to fatigue is the best ability for a low-level horizon walker.




    Oh ok... still "immune to fatigue" doesn't seem that great. Your DM subjects you much to fatigue rules ?


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## Felix (Feb 4, 2004)

Zaruthustran

Yeah, you're right. He wouldn't go around breaking magic things willy-nilly like a forsaker might. But he would go around breaking spell-casters willy nilly when a forsaker might not. So where you gain a little slack towards magic use with items, you lose towards casters. And yeah, he has supernatural abilities, but (going out on a limb... IDHMBIFOM) he doesn't have any (Sp). Big ol difference twixt a (Su) and a (Sp). 

This gets complicated when the OS knows that most magic items are made by mortal casters. I guess you could rationalize it by saying "he's using their weapon aginst them", and that might work, but the tolerance he would have for people who just use magic items would not be extended for the casters/item creators.

I guess the Forsaker 10/ Occult Slayer 5 is going to have to be the vegan of the magic world.


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## Saeviomagy (Feb 5, 2004)

Felix said:
			
		

> I guess the Forsaker 10/ Occult Slayer 5 is going to have to be the vegan of the magic world.



IIRC, a forsaker can't use supernatural abilities. He's more extreme than the occult slayer.


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## Creamsteak (Feb 5, 2004)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> Oh ok... still "immune to fatigue" doesn't seem that great. Your DM subjects you much to fatigue rules ?



 And fatigue is something that can be circumvented by just taking care of yourself, or even one of many different items...


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## Wippit Guud (Feb 5, 2004)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> Oh ok... still "immune to fatigue" doesn't seem that great. Your DM subjects you much to fatigue rules ?



Sleeping in heavy armor, you're fatigued when you wake up. This would eliminate that penalty.

Among other things.


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## pawsplay (Feb 5, 2004)

The Occult Slayer seems to be a weird combination of AD&D barbarians ("Me hate magic!") and Talislanta's Xambrian Wizard Hunters ("Necromancers killed my ancestors.  I enjoy killing rogue wizards for cash").  As written, they seem almost unplayable in a normal D&D campaign.  Imagine a character driven to slay computer programmers turned loose in London or New York.


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## Rashak Mani (Feb 5, 2004)

Wippit Guud said:
			
		

> Sleeping in heavy armor, you're fatigued when you wake up. This would eliminate that penalty.
> 
> Among other things.




  Nice ! Hadn't thought of that one... though most rangers avoid heavy armor anyway.


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## Felix (Feb 5, 2004)

> Saeviomagy
> IIRC, a forsaker can't use supernatural abilities. He's more extreme than the occult slayer.



Nah. A forsaker can use (Su) all day long. 

He cannot use any (Sp) that he might have, which includes casting spells gained from class levels, nor can he use any magic item. So he can't swing a longsword +1, or step through a mirror of mental prowess. He must attempt a saving throw against all magical abilities that allow one.

As for being more extreme... he just doesn't use magic himself. The OS specifically seeks magic users to... slay. The difference twixt refusing an offered cigarette and beating up smokers (and maybe while smoking one's self! ).


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