# So how many coins fit in a...



## Zulgyan (Feb 28, 2007)

... a backpack
... a sack
... a belt-pouch
... etc.?


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## javcs (Mar 1, 2007)

Why would you need to know such a thing?
In most cases, IME, the DM either doesn't particularly care about how you're carrying your money around, sort of like with spell component pouches, or if the DM does care (a) you're high enough level where you have magical storage or (b) you're low enough in level where it's figured there'll be room for it in your gear storage.

But, if you really need to know for some reason, 50gp = 1lb of gold, and http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Equipment.pdf has sthe storage capacities for backpacks, pouches, sacks, etc. in the last few pages.
IIRC backpacks have a storage capacity of 60lbs, pouches have 10lb capacity, sacks have 60lb capacity, and varying amounts of cubic foot capacity. Sacks and backpacks have pretty much identical statistics, from what I remember.
The ratios between coins and weight is in the trade goods section in the beginning of the equipment section of the PHB/SRD.

Where else that kind of information can be found, I don't know. Bags of Holding/Handy Haversacks list how much they can hold.


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## Zulgyan (Mar 1, 2007)

It's important when PCs find lots of gold, have none or near none magic (low-magic campaign), and know they will never be able to come back to take the rest. The got to pick what they can, and flee.

Thanks a lot for the info!


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## Random Axe (Mar 1, 2007)

There was an article in the old TSR Dragon Magazine eons ago, and was reprinted in one of the Best of Dragon anthologies (vol 3 IIRC?), that was entitled _How many coins in a coffer?_  It was a simple article that showed volume calculations and coin sizes and volume ratios down to a single coin.  Granted, it was based on 1st-ed coinage descriptions, but I had no reason IMC to think any differently about the coin sizes in 3rd ed.

At any rate, the bottom line of the article stated that any given container would fit "about" 4 coins per cubic inch of space.  For example, in a small chest measuring 12x6x8 inches, that is 576 cubic inches, which would hold in total about 2304 coins.  It went on to compare other space values of other containers and extrapolate how many coins it would fit (ie. a backpack could be expected to hold a wizard's master spellbook, which might reasonably be of a size X by X by X, therefore a backpack's interior space would be Y cubic inches, which finally meant that one could stuff 4Y coins into that backpack.  

But of course stuffing all that coinage into a single backpack would exceed the *weight* capacity of said backpack... Anyone who's seen the George Clooney/Mark Wahlberg movie _Three Kings_ will know what happens when you stuff a load of GOLD beyond a bag's carrying ability... But in terms of your original question, how many physical coins fit into a physical space, that is the simplest calculation to reach the answer.


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## Funkthis (Mar 1, 2007)

I've asked this question before and Random Axe's response is the best reply I ever got.  Unfortunately for something that doesn't have a stated height, weight and depth you still are left scratching your head.  I mean how big is a sack in D&D exactly?

When I asked the question it was because the party which was relatively low lvl (4-5th I think) did not have any magic appropriate to the situation (bag of holding etc.) and came across the BBEG's treasure room but had not yet defeated the BBEG.  So they wanted to grab as much loot as they could carry and run.  I knew how much weight they could carry.  I knew how many sacks, backpacks, chests and improvised carrying devices they had.  But I couldn't really figure out how many coins, gems and object d'art they could take.

When I asked the question here I got a few responses which didn't really answer the question so as a group we arbitrarily made up some reasonable amounts for each item to carry.  Since the group was ok with the guesstimates the game moved on and nobody cried about it.  Long story short I don't think there is any source out there which will give you much information on this.


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## Thanee (Mar 1, 2007)

The number depends on the DM and is highly arbitrary. 

In most cases it's ~enough.

Bye
Thanee


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## starwed (Mar 1, 2007)

Still, it would help to know, in rough order of magnitude terms, how much gold could fit in a sack.  Sometimes the real answer would be _way_ different that what someone might guess.


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## AuraSeer (Mar 1, 2007)

For coins and such, I always limit by weight instead of by volume. Encumbrance limits are known, so the amount the party can carry is determined by how much they're willing to slow themselves down.

576 cubic inches of gold would weigh something like 400 pounds. Your standard backpack definitely will not carry that much. A treasure chest might, but you'll have to add the weight of the chest itself, and it will probably need two people to lug it around. They'll have to worry about how this affects marching order, and movement through difficult spaces, and all kinds of other issues.

I prefer to ignore all the volume calculations and logistical wankery. We assume everyone stuffs coins into their various packs, pouches, bags, and pockets until they reach their weight limit.


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## Kae'Yoss (Mar 1, 2007)

All I know is that a portable hole can hold 282.743 cubic feet or 270,729 US Fluid Ounces or 8006.4 Liters of beer!


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## Random Axe (Mar 1, 2007)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> 576 cubic inches of gold would weigh something like 400 pounds. Your standard backpack definitely will not carry that much. A treasure chest might, but you'll have to add the weight of the chest itself, and it will probably need two people to lug it around. They'll have to worry about how this affects marching order, and movement through difficult spaces, and all kinds of other issues.



*AuraSeer*, I get your point and I agree with you about encumbrance limits, but in point of fact, 576 cubic inches of gold, or 2300 gp, according to the 50gp per pound formula, is only 46 pounds, not 400.

As for how big is a "sack", I assume a "large sack" is equivalent to a pillowcase.  A small sack will range from the size of your dice-bag, to a throw-pillow cover.


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## nute (Mar 1, 2007)

This just reminds me how massive of an effect the institution of banking and letters of credit can have on a campaign. Even assuming all regions in a campaign accept the same coinage, what an absolute pain it must be to cart around these amounts of gold once you get to high levels. 

Now the concept of investing in gems and converting cash to "denser" assets makes a lot of sense. 50gp = 1 pound, or one really neat gem that weighs a tenth of that. Sure, it's easier to lose and harder to convert (few merchants will make change for a diamond in most campaigns unless they're also running a jewelry shop) but for logistics alone it's useful.

I like how in Eberron, you have House Kundarak and House Sivis working together to establish a cross-continent banking system based on gold storage and unforgeable letters of credit. But in a campaign without banking, it's got to be a huge pain in the tuchus to cart around that 4,000gp for the local mage to make that masterwork sword of yours into an enchanted weapon.


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## AuraSeer (Mar 1, 2007)

Random Axe said:
			
		

> *AuraSeer*, I get your point and I agree with you about encumbrance limits, but in point of fact, 576 cubic inches of gold, or 2300 gp, according to the 50gp per pound formula, is only 46 pounds, not 400.



Going by these rules of thumb for D&D coins, you're right. I calculated based on the density of the metal, and assumed no empty space in the container.

A cubic inch of gold weighs about 11 ounces, or 0.69 pounds. Multiply by the size of that chest you mentioned:  576 x 0.69 = 400 pounds.

Your number seems way off to me, probably because it's still based on 1E coinage. A 3E coin is 1/50 of a pound, and in gold that would be about 0.03 cubic inches. No matter how haphazardly you stack them, you'd get far more than 4 per cubic inch. (I think this number makes the gp slightly larger than a US dime, and Google tells me that one can get 45 dimes per cubic inch.)

Of course I'm assuming the coins are pure gold. If you use a 9ct alloy they'll weigh a bit more than half as much per volume-- which is the same as saying you'll get half as many per cubic inch.


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## Kieperr (Mar 1, 2007)

Containers and Carriers - Dry Goods 
Item				Cost	Empty Weight	Holds or Carries 
Backpack [1]			2 gp	2 lb.		1 cubic ft./60 lb.
Barrel [2]			2 gp	30 lb.		10 cubic ft./650 lb.
Basket				4 sp	1 lb.		2 cubic ft./20 lb.
Bucket [3]			5 sp	2 lb.		1 cubic ft./65 lb.
Chest				2 gp	25 lb.		2 cubic ft./200 lb.
Pouch, belt			1 gp	1/2 lb.		1/5 cubic ft./10 lb.
Sack [1]				1 sp	1/2 lb.		1 cubic ft./60 lb.
Saddlebags			4 gp	8 lb.		5 cubic ft./250 lb.
Spell component pouch [1]	5 gp	1/4 lb.		1/8 cubic ft./2 lb.

Liquids
Item				Cost	Empty Weight	Holds or Carries
Bottle, wine, glass		2 gp	--		1 1/2 pints/1.5 lb.
Flask				3 cp	--		1 pint/1 lb.
Jug, clay				3 cp	1 lb.		1 gallon/8 lb.
Mug/tankard, clay		2 cp	--		1 pint/1 lb.
Pitcher, clay			2 cp	1 lb.		1/2 gallon/4 lb.
Pot, iron				5 sp	2 lb.		1 gallon/8 lb.
Vial, ink or potion		1 gp	--		1 fluid ounce/--
Waterskin			1 gp	--		1/2 gallon/4 lb.

-- No weight worth mentioning
1. When made for Medium characters. Weighs one-quarter the normal amount when made for Small characters. Weighs twice the normal amount when made for Large characters. Containers carry one-quarter the normal amount when made for Small characters. Rations for small characters weigh one-quarter as much, but also contain only one-quarter of the food and cost one-quarter as much.
2. A barrel filled with liquid holds about 75 gallons or about 300 liters.
3. A bucket filled with liquid holds about 7 gallons or about 30 liters.

Hauling Vehicles
Item		Cost	Empty Weight	Holds or Carries
Cart		15 gp	200 lb.		1/2 ton 
Sled		20 gp	300 lb.		1 ton
Wagon		35 gp	400 lb.		2 tons

A packhorse can carry one eighth of a ton.
A horse-drawn cart or wagon can carry five-eighths of a ton on soft roads, and up to two tons on a good road. 
A barge pulled by a horse can carry 30 tons on a river or 50 tons on a canal.


This came from somewhere on the web and was created by one of the game designers.

Edit: Put some spaces in there somewhere. I don't know how to do that yet.


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## green slime (Mar 1, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> All I know is that a portable hole can hold 282.743 cubic feet or 270,729 US Fluid Ounces or 8006.4 Liters of beer!




8 *tons* of beer!! Wow.

I wonder were I can get one of those...


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## AnonymousOne (Mar 1, 2007)

green slime said:
			
		

> 8 *tons* of beer!! Wow.
> 
> I wonder were I can get one of those...



4 Honda Civics worth of brew ... that, is a helluva a lot of Sam Adams... always a good decision...


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## mvincent (Mar 2, 2007)

This Rules of the Game article gives carrying capacities for common containers. You would likely use the max weight (and 50 coins per lb.) rather than max volume, as coins are pretty heavy, and most backpacks would break if fully loaded with gold.

Note: 
this Rules of the Game article says that 280 cubic feet of space (i.e. a portable hole) holds about 100,000 standard coins or 2,100 gallons of water (implying 357 coins per cubic foot, which seems far too low).


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## AuraSeer (Mar 2, 2007)

If my math is right and a gold piece is close to the size of a dime, then according to [url="http://home.att.net/~numericana/answer/trivia.htm#npg]this page[/url] we can fit about 10,000 to the gallon. That means it should take 21,000,000 (twenty one million!) gp to fill up a portable hole. Even with a lot of leeway for inefficient packing, that RotG article is off by more than a little bit.

Anyone care to check my work?


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## Jack Simth (Mar 2, 2007)

Calculation of Density with Gold

Web links are fun!

576 cubic inches of pure gold should weigh in at a little over 401 pounds.

There's going to be some stacking problems, but I don't see how those could really get to more than 25% wasted space.


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## Kae'Yoss (Mar 2, 2007)

AnonymousOne said:
			
		

> 4 Honda Civics worth of brew




I knew that the BigMac was a standard unit for measurement (seriously, read up on the BicMac Index BMI!), but the Civic is new


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## mvincent (Mar 2, 2007)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> that RotG article is off by more than a little bit.



Yeah. I seem to recall that being mentioned in an older thread. I only mentioned it here for completeness (i.e. it was the only WotC source that I found) but I did label it as incorrect. Thanks for the more correct estimates.

Note: I noticed a few (less major) calculation errors in the other article I mentioned also, but it still has useful information


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## kigmatzomat (Mar 2, 2007)

I seem to recall a previous thread waaaay back at the start of 3e that discussed coinage.  I think the consensus was that gold coins tended to be about the size of a US penny, depending on the metal and purity. Since the game assumes 100% pure metals (or that minted gold is as pure as "raw" gold), a solid gold penny would be about 8.5g or about 50/lb.  

Platinum is denser than gold so you'd get something smaller than a penny but not quite a dime, while silver and copper would be more like thick nickels.


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## theredrobedwizard (Mar 2, 2007)

Pouch of Money Holding:  This slightly magical pouch has only one magical quality, it can hold an infinite amount of non-magical coinage.  Any attempt to put anything that is not a non-magical coin into the pouch causes all the contents to spill onto the ground.

I give these to all of my players at the beginning of campaigns, simply because I hate dealing with things like "well, how much money can I fit in this bag here?".

Hasn't caused a problem yet.

Also, in the PHB, there is a scale drawing of a standard issue Greyhawk gold piece; page 168.



-TRRW


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## abri (Mar 2, 2007)

Well with the density of gold, you'll have a hard time finding a bag that you can fill with gold, it'll break way before that. Volume is really not an isue with gold, weight is. Carrying capacity is what will really limit how much gold you can carry, especially with 50 coins/lbs.
Now if you want to be hard on the players and know exactly how much they can put in one backpack: a modern bacpack can hold 120lbs safely so depending on quality a safe bet would be 50-70lbs (2500-3500 coins)


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## mvincent (Mar 5, 2007)

Another note: [url="http://www.kokogiak.com/megapenny/four.asp]this page[/url] says that you can fit about 50k (stacked) pennies in a cubic foot (over 300 lbs of pennies, or over 1000 lbs of gp).


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## twyoung1960 (Aug 29, 2018)

Simple math
50 coins weighs 1 lb
Backpack and Sack hold 30 lbs so 50 x 30 = 1500 coins
Pouch holds 6 lbs so 50 x 6 = 300 coins


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## Greenfield (Aug 30, 2018)

twyoung1960 said:


> Simple math
> 50 coins weighs 1 lb
> Backpack and Sack hold 30 lbs so 50 x 30 = 1500 coins
> Pouch holds 6 lbs so 50 x 6 = 300 coins




The question wasn't about how much weight, but how many will fit in the *space* of a backpack, sack, etc.  And that's actually dependent on how they're stacked or packaged.  Also dependent on the actual size of said sack.

I know from experience that 100 presidential dollar coins will completely fill a moderate sized dice bag (one six inches or so deep and with an opening about 10 inches in circumference.)  

Of course, the exact size of a D&D coin is hard to describe, and may or may not come close to the size of a US presidential dollar:  By the rules a copper piece and a gold piece are the same size and weight, when in fact gold is a *lot* heavier, per volume, than copper.  To be the same weight (about a third of an ounce) the gold coin would have to be a fraction of the size of the copper.


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## howandwhy99 (Aug 31, 2018)

D&D historically uses a measure by Coin (mass) for both weight and carrying capacity. So [MENTION=93109]twyoung1960[/MENTION] is technically correct. (though the ratio used to be 10:1)

Q. How many coins can any container carry? 
A. The players choose. 

The DM can have some standards if they want, but really it is up to the players to ask for what they want. If they want a rucksack that can hold 70 million friggin' coins, then they can have one. (Whether they can carry it, much less could it hold its own weight comes under different rules altogether)

What the DM needs is price per coin for the equipment. Material is the baseline for determining this, but the shape and level of precision/ranking of a craftsmanship the item requires also affects cost. 

...at least for me. Your DM could have tons of different design factors. (How do I know what your DM has decided upon?)

Standards are useful because they allow for uniformity and simplicity for the DM's tracking of all this stuff. (They are not the only option!) If you don't specify your requirements, you get the default. If your DM wants to overwhelm himself with detail tracking, he can create a vast variety for every item crafter in the world, for every crafted item!
- I strongly suggest against this (it's a beer and pretzels game after all. k.i.s.s.)


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## howandwhy99 (Aug 31, 2018)

PS: Almost everything in D&D is based on a human standard. And most of the crafted items in the world come from humans too. So your standards are likely to be conforming to what a standard human can use without difficulty. The human scale.

This is true for weapons and armor. It is true for bags and chests and armoires and hats and shoes and ascots and farming rakes and footstools and every other thing people in your game world craft.

This keeps the rest of the world exotic, just like playing a demihuman. Frost Giants have to build their own supplies out of what's on hand, like a twenty foot ottoman made of dragon bones and cave bear skins.


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## twyoung1960 (Sep 12, 2018)

*Coins*

I know it wasn't about weight it was about how many coins each container will hold, unfortunately D&D doesn't provide container dimensions, what they do provide is weight capacity. Why would they tell you 50 coins weighs 1 lb. and a pouch carries 6 lbs. if that wasn't the standard they intended?  The weight is substantiated in the book, anything else is pure speculation.


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