# X2 *spoilers*



## Sulimo (May 1, 2003)

I saw X2 a few days ago...   

I have to say that overall I thought it was much better than the original film. Actually I think I might have a new fave Marvel adaption. 

No horrible lines like the toad line in X-Men and the characters I had problems with in X-Men (Storm & Cyclops) really improved in this second film imo. 

One of the few nits I have to pick is the apparent killing of lady Deathstrike, and the way she died. 

One particular thing I was surpised about and liked alot was the whole Jean Grey thread. I really didn't expect the film-makers to use the Phoenix Saga at all...I thought it would've been too hard to deal with, without dealing with all the Shi'ar stuff. But the foreshadowing in X2 looks like they can do it. The whole episode of her death very much reminded me of what heppened in the comics...pretty good work from the writer given they chopped the links to space out. 

I particularly liked that fine shot over the water, where I thought at any minute Jean would rise in her Phoenix form. 

Bring on X3 I say...


----------



## stevelabny (May 2, 2003)

i just got home from the midnight show

the phoenix thing was great. i only wish they wouldve had her rise up out of the water for the ending.
it also seemed like they blow a chance to have rogue and iceman freeze (some of) the lake before the end.

i had no problems with deathstrike's death at all.
she was obviously only used as a conveniant "cool" fight for wolvy and i dont see any need to bring her back

my main problems with x1 were 
mystique. UGH. what a horrible version of a great character.
x2 has gone a long way to redeeming her almost to the level of the character in the comics

halle berry as storm. 
x2? nope. shes still all wrong for the part. 

the special effects were pretty weak.
in x2, the special effects are pretty solid. no scenes that made me wince, and even a couple of things that were downright cool.

anyone get a good look at deathstrykes computer when mystique was hacking? 

it had remy lebeau's name (gambit) in the mutant file 
and more but i couldnt see them all.
and franklin richards had his own folder on the desk top.

any guesses on who the kid blinking to change the channels was?

and was i the only one who wondered if they called the illusionist JASON to make us think of JASON WYNGARDE aka MASTERMIND 

steve


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 2, 2003)

There are already two threads on this.

Here's the original.


----------



## NiTessine (May 2, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *There are already two threads on this.
> 
> Here's the original. *




Which has been derailed beyond all recognition, and has no spoiler tag. I figure spoilers should be stuck here.

That said, I LOVED the movie!

Nightcrawler's entrance in the White House was awesome. The special effects of Wagner's teleporting were incredible, and the music... Wheee!

Magneto's exit from the prison was, likewise, awesome. Reminded me of a character from _Scryed_... 

I can also honestly say that Grey's sacrifice was a real surprise to me. It wasn't until after the movie as I mulled it over that I went... "Jean Grey... the Phoenix. Ah, now I see."

I felt the movie could've used a bit more exploring of Nightcrawler's character, and perhaps something more than just a nod at Colossus and Kitty.

Overall, I can find no great causes for complaint. There were no true problems with the film. Lady Deathstrike and Jean Grey dying established a bit of that mortal touch to the characters. These may be godlike, but they're still not gods. Likewise, the 'Young and the Restless' parts, as someone described them, fleshed out the characters, and were not overt enough to detract from the movie.

All in all, 4/5.

Bring on X3! And this time, we want Gambit and the Beast!


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 2, 2003)

Just to note, firstly, that "Dr Hank McCoy" is shown talking on the TV at one point...

Plus I heard that they put an X-ray of Archangels wings on the wall of the room where Wolverine and Deathstrike have their big fight...

I loved the film. All of it. No complaints at all. And I think the thing I loved most is that they did almost no recounting of the first film. They let us get on with enjoying the new stuff...Nightcrawler (BAMF! BAMF! BAMF! ), Collussus (finally! I loved "I could help you..." to Wolverine...shame that he didn't) and all the little nods and winks to other characters (Jubilee is also mentioned by name very briefly).

This film is hugely influenced by the comics, with so many little touches, it's wonderful. I didn't spot Gambit or Frankie Richards, but I'll have a look when I see it again, cos I will see it again.

And the Phoenix foreshadowing, I'm proud to say, I spotted when Jean's eyes went kind of fiery when she was trying to destroy the missile. I thought - "Nah...they wouldn't...but maybe..." and then right at the end, the subtle pointer to the fans 

Much better than the cheesy 'hand rises above the water' trick, and it will leave many people guessing if they don't know the universe.

I also figured the President was going to announce the start of the 'Sentinel' program or something at the end, but the moment when the Xmen appear in the press conference was downright spooky!

Loved it. Wonderful. Back to see it again early next week, I think.


----------



## Someone (May 2, 2003)

Wasn´t bad at all, but I missed a big fight with everyone involved. I liked the best Magneto and mystique, that´s sure.


----------



## Crothian (May 2, 2003)

It was really good, but were was the sulfur smell?  It's a simple detail to add and I am disappointed then didn't have it.  They did very well with his character except the sulfur smell.


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 2, 2003)

I liked it.

I LOVED the Colossus cameo. Seeing him change into his organic steel form was fantastic.

My only nitpick: Mystique breaks in and seals herself in the control room. Stryker wants in. But the idiot doesn't have Lady Deathstrike carve through the door with her adamantium claws. (The audience doesn't know about her claws yet, but Stryker does.)

You could argue that she doesn't have the strength to drive her claws through something that thick, but I don't really buy that, since Wolverine does it ALL the time (and actually, Lady Deathstrike, as a cyborg, is supposed to be stronger than he is). And there's no WAY that door can be adamantium (that would be too expensive, and there's no real reason to use such a rare metal to guard a control room).


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 2, 2003)

It's never really said that she's a cyborg in the movieverse.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 2, 2003)

and judging from the the clues 

a) the way she regenerated like wolverine.
b) Strikers comment "I use to think you were one of a kind Wolverine."
c) The x-rays of her hands on the wall in the same chamber that was used to create Wolverine.

she was in fact just like Wolverine, in the film version.

Was that Jubilee sat next to the Professor when he took the class at the end? Looked like her hair do.

Also was the screaming girl Siryn? (Banshee's daughter from the comics).

Oh yeah I caught the Remy referance on the computer as well. Didn't notice the Angel one I'll have to go again and take a notepad.

Magneto had all the best lines. 

I was disappointed that Professor X fell completely for Jason, I thought he was ment to be a much stronger mentalist than that.

I (and my friends) were initial disappointed that Bobby didn't freeze the water comming out of the dam, until I thought about it. He's only learning the extent of his powers, a lot of the time he still needs to touch things to freeze them, the wall in the corridor, the tea cup (although he blast the lad in the Museam with ice so they aren't completely consistant on that point).

Why didn't Jean do everything from the plane? She gave it power so why didn't she just do that and take off? That's the main sticking point. I guess she didn't have time and she can't use her TK on the water through the glass of the cockpit, or lift the plane if she is actually in it, but still her giving it power didn't make much sense.

Still excellent movie, I'll have to run Mutants and Masterminds now.


----------



## Krug (May 3, 2003)

I didn't like it that much. Just one good fight (and Kelly Hu has ONE line of dialogue) and a very drawn-out ending. Also, it was hard to convince me that Stryker's Son could just control Xavier to destroy all mutants. I thought his power was to project images in people's minds, not to control them. I expected Xavier to question the 'child' at this point. 

Magneto still stole the show. Ian Mckellan just has outstanding presence. (Ben Affleck, are you listening?)


----------



## orbitalfreak (May 3, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *
> Plus I heard that they put an X-ray of Archangels wings on the wall of the room where Wolverine and Deathstrike have their big fight... *




Yep, it's in the upper-right portion of the wall with the rest of the X-rays.

I just got back from seeing the movie myself, but we had a power surge hit the theatre halfway through the movie, and we missed some of it by the time they got everything started up again.  Could someone fill me in on what happened between (1) Bobby makes an iced latté for his mom, and (2) Jean, Storm, and Nightcrawler are on the Jet.  About 5 minutes we missed, I think.


----------



## stevelabny (May 3, 2003)

bagpuss, just like you know that steel-skin big russian guy was colossus.
just accept that screaming till it hurts girl is siryn.
and fall-through-the-floor girl is shadowcat. 

jubilee was actually called by name during the movie.

and all 4 of them are listed by name in the credits.

personally, x1s version of jubilee LOOKED more like jubilee, both facially and with her trademark yellow jacket. 

as for why jean left the plane, it very well could have something to do with the phoenix-force telling her to do it that way, depending on how they are going to play the whole phoenix thing. 

krug, deathstrike was nothing but a flunky. she didnt need any dialogue.
 there were numerous cool fight scenes (crawler vs the secret service guys, storm vs the fighter jets, wolverine vs the soldiers, magneto vs the prison guards, and wolvy vs deathstrike) 
as for xavier vs the illusionist. once you believe the illusion, you believe the illusion. it wasnt controlling him. he believed he was helping the girl. and wanted to help her.


----------



## Krug (May 3, 2003)

Steve,
Those were more like action sequences, and in at least two or three of them, the X-men dominated. 

Being a flunky doesn't mean you need to have little dialogue.

But hey these are the comics. Overall, I can't say I was that impressed by it. Too many characters, too little attention to each. 3/5


----------



## WizarDru (May 3, 2003)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *Also was the screaming girl Siryn? (Banshee's daughter from the comics).
> 
> I was disappointed that Professor X fell completely for Jason, I thought he was ment to be a much stronger mentalist than that.
> *




DAMN, that movie ROCKED!

That was Siryn...she was identified as such in the credits, as was Jubilee, Colossus and others.

As for the Professor, he did have a inhibitor device slapped on his skull, and presumably was drugged, as well.  Not that much of a stretch that he could be dominated under those conditions, frankly.

*



			I (and my friends) were initial disappointed that Bobby didn't freeze the water comming out of the dam, until I thought about it. He's only learning the extent of his powers, a lot of the time he still needs to touch things to freeze them, the wall in the corridor, the tea cup (although he blast the lad in the Museam with ice so they aren't completely consistant on that point).
		
Click to expand...


*
Mostly frozen water vapor in the air at the museum.  Notice how little effect it actually has.  Movie Bobby's powers require physical contact and some time for it to actually work.  Note that it takes at least five to ten seconds for the ice wall to form.  That water WASN'T waiting. 

*



			Why didn't Jean do everything from the plane? She gave it power so why didn't she just do that and take off? That's the main sticking point. I guess she didn't have time and she can't use her TK on the water through the glass of the cockpit, or lift the plane if she is actually in it, but still her giving it power didn't make much sense.
		
Click to expand...


*
Considering the last time, just twenty minutes prior, that she'd cut loose with her power, she shattered the whole dam superstructure (creating the crisis in the first place), I can see why.  That, and the fact that she caught on fire while tapping the power that deeply, among other things. She was most likely afraid of killing everyone while trying to save them.   Since we never see Jean levitate, it's safe to assume she can't affect herself directly (yet).

Alan Cummings' Nightcrawler was, like Hugh Jackman's Wolverin, SPOT ON.  I couldn't have asked for a better performance, or more faithful capturing of the character's essence.  It was like watching so many events in the comic distilled down to their pure source, and then displayed for my enjoyment.


it's gonna be a Hella good summer.


----------



## Tempuswolf (May 3, 2003)

For those who like the little details (I saw the movie twice this afternoon) when the file on Cerebro in the second monitor catches Mystique's eye you can also see files on....

*Reed Richards*
*Omega Red*
*Muir Island*

and most ominously

*Project Wideawake*


----------



## Bran Blackbyrd (May 3, 2003)

I liked this one a lot. I also thought it was better than the first one.

I caught the Gambit reference.
I wondered how many people saw the phoenix spread its wings underneath the water in the final shot of the movie. The people in the theater didn't seem to notice, for the most part.

Some of the plot changes, mostly the ones that involve Rogue and Jubilee, annoy me.I don't mind so much though because the movies are quality. If they were garbage I'd be pretty angry.

So we've seen Siryn, Colossus, Kitty and Jubilee.
Incidently, Gambit was in the cast list too...


----------



## Wormwood (May 3, 2003)

Does this help?


----------



## Wormwood (May 3, 2003)

...and from the "Blink and you'll miss 'em" file:


----------



## Kanegrundar (May 3, 2003)

I liked the references to Gambit and Beast, plus Franklin Richards.  Hopefully in the next movie we'll get to see Collosus and Shadowcat take a bigger role.  I also like the use of Syren as well...a siren to wake up the rest of the students.  I was trying to think of who the hell this Jason Stryker was, but the reference in an earlier post of Jason Wygrade finally made me realize who he sort of is.  My only bad point on the movie was that I was hoping that the bald man with the hook would have been shown at least as a lead scientist behind the Weapon X project.  Well, that and Lady Deathstrike was the Darth Maul of X2.  A cool fight, but no meat as a character.  Too bad, she really was a neat villian in the comics.

This makes me want to go out and start reading the X-Men again!

Kane


----------



## Methinkus (May 3, 2003)

Project Wideawake?  Tell me about this please, sounds interesting for some reason.


----------



## Wormwood (May 3, 2003)

Methinkus said:
			
		

> *Project Wideawake?  Tell me about this please, sounds interesting for some reason. *



This is as good a place to start as any


----------



## DerianCypher (May 3, 2003)

GREAT MOVIE!! I'd give it a 5/5. Overall I was thoroughly pleased. The special effects were fantastic, the characters were solid as well as the plot.

Most of all, they emphasized my favorite character (nightcrawler)

I remember hearing jubilee's name but I don't think I saw her. 

She was in X1? Where?

DC


----------



## EarthsShadow (May 3, 2003)

The whole Pheonix tie in was a complete surprise to me, I did not expect that at all.  I loved Nightcrawler also, he was fun to watch.  Also, I lost count after ten for the people Wolverine killed in the movie.  It was awesome.

4/5 is what I would rate the movie.  As cool as it was, its not as good as Spiderman.

X3...Pheonix Saga...I am surprised they are not going with Sentinels...but who knows, maybe they will, or maybe they will go with Apocalypse.  He is somebody I would love to see in a X-Men movie.


----------



## RangerWickett (May 3, 2003)

Hey, the guy who played Methos on Highlander was Stryker's lead bodyguard.  Kind of a shame he was wasted on a flunky, since he's handled thousands-year-old characters before, even if he doesn't quite have the build for an Apocalypse.  

I know there was one "gasp, I recognize that!" moment, but for the life of me, I can't recall what it was.  I'm pretty sure it was one of one or two things that almost no one else in the audience reacted to, but it was something subtle and cool.

Oh, and c'mon, Kurt Wagner teleporting out of the jet to catch Rogue?!  I mean, I saw it coming as soon as Rogue's seatbelt didn't buckle, but still, it was cool to watch.

My only real complaints revolve around the Professor X stuff.

a) We should've seen a bit more resistance on his part to Jason's illusions.

b) Does anyone else feel that "Professor X nearly kills the world" would be a hard act to follow?  I mean, if they'd said he could kill individuals by concentrating, I could see it as being feasible, but it raised the stakes a bit too much as it was.

Everything else I loved.    EEE, I squeal like a schoolgirl!


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 3, 2003)

orbitalfreak said:
			
		

> *Could someone fill me in on what happened between (1) Bobby makes an iced latté for his mom, and (2) Jean, Storm, and Nightcrawler are on the Jet.  About 5 minutes we missed, I think. *




I don't think you missed that much.

Iceman's brother storms off to his room and calls 911 to report intruders in their house. His mom blames herself for Bobby's mutation, and Pyro says that the mutant gene is passed on through the males, so actually it's all her husband's fault. Later, his mom asks Bobby if he's ever tried NOT being a mutant.

On the Blackbird, Nightcrawler tells Storm about how humans feared him, but he didn't hate them. He pitied them, because they only knew what they could see with their eyes. Storm says that she gave up on pity a long time ago. Nightcrawler laments that one so beautiful shouldn't be so angry. Storm repies anger can help you survive, and Nightcrawler replies that so does faith.

Jean contacts Wolverine through the X-cell phone he found in Cyclops' car. Wolverine updates them on the attack on the mansion. The police arrive, and when Wolverine doesn't (can't) drop his claws, he gets shot. Pyro goes psycho, and starts throwing fireballs at the police (probably killing several), until Rogue touches him and knocks him out. She extinguished the flames, and Wolverine recovers from the gun shot. Then the X-Jet arrives.


----------



## John Crichton (May 3, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *I don't think you missed that much.*



  I thought that was one of the best scenes in the movie - Pyro going all Anakin on the cops...

Anyway, matter of opinion.  

I have not read many (read: less than 10) Xmen comics and came in pretty blind to both movies as to the story arcs.  That said, I enjoyed every second of this movie.  I liked but had some cheese issues with the first movie.  X2 blows it out of the water in every sense.  Even though I was never a reader of the comics I thoroughly enjoyed all the little things (cameos, hints at other characters, etc) they added in there.  I was so entertained that I now want to see the film again and then run a superhero rpg game.  Xmen didn't do that for me neither did Spiderman or Daredevil.

X2 has quickly placed itself at number 2 all-time on my favorite comic book movies (right behind the original Superman).  While the movie requires viewing of the first Xmen flick to really understand what is going on, I don't view that as a negative.  That first one was just an appetizer to the meal that was X2, which I hope is just the first course of a feast.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 3, 2003)

I thought that Jean's sacrifice to save the rest of the team was truly noble and a very original way to end the second movie.   Why, if she hadn't quietly walked away from her teammates to go fix the problem at the cost of her own life the craft would never have been able to fly away in time before the Genesis device  exploded.   Now we can all look forward to "X:Men 3: The Search for Jean".


----------



## Crothian (May 3, 2003)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> *Hey, the guy who played Methos on Highlander was Stryker's lead bodyguard.  Kind of a shame he was wasted on a flunky, since he's handled thousands-year-old characters before, even if he doesn't quite have the build for an Apocalypse.   *




His name is Peter Wingfield.  He's done small stuff here and there since Highlander the series ended.  He was the bad guy a few weeeks back on John Doe for instance.


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 3, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *  I thought that was one of the best scenes in the movie - Pyro going all Anakin on the cops...
> 
> Anyway, matter of opinion.  *




Oh, that scene definitely rocked. Orbital said the movie picked back up where Storm, Nightcrawler, and Jean were on the jet, so I couldn't tell if he'd seen Pyro freak out or not. But I included it because it was so cool.


----------



## Enforcer (May 3, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> His name is Peter Wingfield.  He's done small stuff here and there since Highlander the series ended.  He was the bad guy a few weeeks back on John Doe for instance. *




He also had a recurring role on Stargate SG-1, as a Go'auld spy among the Tokra (sp?).


----------



## KenM (May 3, 2003)

I really liked the movie, they bulit on what they did in the first movie. I do have a couple of issues;
  1. More colossus would have been nice.
  2. The reason Professor X fell for Jason was the general put that inhibitor on Him.
  3. For next movie: Juggernuaght(SP).


----------



## orbitalfreak (May 3, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't think you missed that much.
> *scene summary snipped*
> *




Thanks!  Just wanted to be sure I didn't miss anything too important.  I agree, that scene had some very cool moments in it.

Pyro: "You know those dangerous mutants you hear about on the news all the time?  Well, I'm the worst one."  ::Boom!::

Wolverine:  Stands up, cracks neck, walks away, ignores cop.


----------



## Dinkeldog (May 3, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh, that scene definitely rocked. Orbital said the movie picked back up where Storm, Nightcrawler, and Jean were on the jet, so I couldn't tell if he'd seen Pyro freak out or not. But I included it because it was so cool.
> *




I liked Rogue's solution to the problem.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 3, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *Iceman's brother storms off to his room and calls 911 to report intruders in their house. His mom blames herself for Bobby's mutation, and Pyro says that the mutant gene is passed on through the males, so actually it's all her husband's fault.*




This made me wonder if Bobby's brother is in fact a mutant and in denial and fear about the whole thing hence his reaction at Bobby's display of power.

Can't recall anything about Bobby having a brother from the comics however.


----------



## Artimoff (May 3, 2003)

In the museum, Jean's powers were interfraeing with the electronics. I'm guessing that is why Jean left the blackbird. An all around kicka$$ flick.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 3, 2003)

Loved every minute of it...in fact, I'll be seeing it again tommorrow.  
My ONLY slight complaint is the lack of my all time favorite character. Angel. No. No ARCHangel. Angel! But I guess since we saw Archangel's wings...we'll never see Angel himself. *sigh* He was so cool.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 3, 2003)

The link posted is dead so what is Project Wideawake?


Also the mutant in question WAS mastermind for sure. He had the one blue and one brown eye. That is the one dead giveaway.


One thing that really got me in this movie was the killing. In the first X-Men the only death is the Senator. No one else gets killed. Then in this one Wolverine goes on a killing spree and really gets his character right.


Wolverine I feel was hit perfectly in both movies. He really isnt that great a fighter in my opinion. He is tough and all but between his regeneration and skeleton he is used to letting people hit him quite a bit. I get the impression that in just abou every fight he is in he ends up bleeding very quickly just because he doesnt care.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 3, 2003)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *Can't recall anything about Bobby having a brother from the comics however. *



That's because he didn't have one, he was an only child.  His parents were actually aware of his power, and tried to hide it from the world due to anti-mutant sentiment.   He used his power in public to protect a girlfriend, and then later to save his parents from mobsters.  The police then took him into custody for his own protection, and then Professor X intervened.

The movie's interpretation of the reaction from Bobby's family was actually a very good composite of family reactions shown in the comics, most notably when Jean Grey's family was first told.  


(I was just trying to be funny in my earlier post, as you can see from above, I am a huge comics fan.  I have a collection of around 12,000 books, including around 500 or so with the title of "X-Men")


----------



## Decado (May 3, 2003)

I thought the movie was great and even better then X1. I was never a follower of the X-Men comics but I may start picking up some of the Essential Comic collections to learn the background of the X-Men. I am also trying to talk my buddy into running a superhero campaign, something we have never done.

Decado


----------



## Wormwood (May 3, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *The link posted is dead so what is Project Wideawake?*



Blame Tripod. 

After the second Brotherhood of Evil Mutants' attempted assassination of Senator Edward Kelly. the President inaugurated the secret and illegal "Project Wideawake," to investigate, and capture, any superhumanly powerful mutant who . . . may possibly pose a threat to "national security."  From original continuity

"The Sentinels series of robots were originally designed as the offensive arm of Operation:Wideawake, a US government policy to enforce control and order on what was becoming an unrully mutant population..." 

Project: Wideawake---The project whose goals are many, but all revolve around the Mutant Question.  From the new continuity.

Hope this helps


----------



## Crothian (May 3, 2003)

DocMoriartty said:
			
		

> *One thing that really got me in this movie was the killing. In the first X-Men the only death is the Senator. No one else gets killed. Then in this one Wolverine goes on a killing spree and really gets his character right.
> *




Well, Toad and Sabertooth as well


----------



## Silver Moon (May 3, 2003)

Decado said:
			
		

> *I may start picking up some of the Essential Comic collections to learn the background of the X-Men. *



From an economic standpoint the Essential route is the way to go, with a large collection of back issues for a reasonable price (softbound, each with 20-30 issues in a black&white format on newsprint) .  If you can afford it, I would recommend the Marvel Masterworks route (hardbound, 10 issues each, in color and on prestige paper).   Either way, it's never been easier to catch up on the back issues. 

And back to comments about the movie, I thought it was great.  I did like the first one better, but this one was still excellent.  The characters of Nightcrawler, Iceman and Pyro were extremely well done.  Ian McKellen stole the show as a wonderfully played Magneto, bringing together his personality of being both hero and villain all rolled into one.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 3, 2003)

Ian McKellen showed what a very experienced British actor is capable of when he is trusted by a director and given good dialogue...

I want to be like that when I'm his age! I thought all the old-timers (Mystique as Senator, Magneto, Stryker, Prof X) really showed their experience and acting ability in this film. Wonderful to see.

My respect for the film has gone up a notch now I know they made a 'Project Wideawake' reference too...

The next one HAS to have Sentinels and Phoenix in it, doesn't it? Hoo boy...


----------



## John Crichton (May 3, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *Oh, that scene definitely rocked. Orbital said the movie picked back up where Storm, Nightcrawler, and Jean were on the jet, so I couldn't tell if he'd seen Pyro freak out or not. But I included it because it was so cool.   *



Ah, well in that case, good call.  

Was it just me or could you have easily watched another 45 minutes of that movie?  It hardly felt like 2:15 hours...


----------



## Dark Eternal (May 3, 2003)

Just saw it last night!  I'd been avoiding this thread until now, due to the spoilers tag.

Ohhh, my god, I can NOT say enough about that movie.  Everything in it - I LOVED.  

Still haven't identified the kid with glasses who was changing channels on the TV.  He's the ONLY one I haven't figured out yet!  Argh!

I almost fainted when Collosus appeared, I was so hyped... that moment alone would have been worth paying the price of admission five times over.  I will die a happy man if the next movie has a cameo featuring his younger sister, Illyana - my absolute FAVORITE CHARACTER of all time.  Damn the Legacy Virus for killing her!!!!!  Since Xian (Karma) and Danielle (Mirage) were both names in Stryker's files, I believe that a cameo by Magik is at least a possibility... god, I hope so....

Also, Jamie Madrox - the Multiple Man - damn, I hope we see something of him.  Of every mutant power I've ever seen in the comics - and I've seen almost all of 'em - his is the power I've always dreamed of having.  And besides, Jamie's funny... 

Syren's cameo also thrilled me - but I'd rather have seen her father.  Sean and Moira should have been in the films - even if only like Dr. McCoy was, on tv in the background somewhere.  And if Moira had been in the film, then I'd have a hope of seeing Rahne... 

On another topic - does anyone else wonder if they're ever going to include the connection between Raven Darkholme and Kurt Wagner in the movies?  

I'm going back tonight to torture myself by trying to find any other trivial cameo or background appearances that I might not have caught yet.


A definate 6/5 vote for X2 from the Dark Eternal!

In closing, until Cable and X-Man join forces to summon Lavos... when it comes to movies - Make Mine Marvel!


----------



## Silver Moon (May 3, 2003)

Dark Eternal said:
			
		

> *Still haven't identified the kid with glasses who was changing channels on the TV.  He's the ONLY one I haven't figured out yet!  Argh!*



A friend of mine who runs a comic shop, and has access to a lot of material about it, thinks that is the movie version of Doug Ramsey, who a New Mutants fan like you is sure to remember.


----------



## Dark Eternal (May 3, 2003)

> *A friend of mine who runs a comic shop, and has access to a lot of material about it, thinks that is the movie version of Doug Ramsey, who a New Mutants fan like you is sure to remember.*




CYPHER!  Doh, I am _such_ an idiot!  I forgot all about him!!!  

I'd like to say that actually, I blocked it out - I was _very_ disappointed by Doug's murder during the Mutant Massacre, and even more disappointed by the 'tribute ressurection' of the character in the form of Douglock. 

In any case, that does indeed fit the data available.  So, I'll credit you (and your friend) with clearing that one up for me, and hope that I can find more cool cameos during my second viewing.  

Thanks - I appreciate the jog to the ol' memory blocks.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 3, 2003)

My first thought was Cypher as well, but changing channels like that implies so sort of IR or radiowave transmission and wasn't Cypher's only power to understand any language or code? I suppose they could stretch it and say he was "communicating" with the TV in it's language. But I didn't think he could trasmit anything in the electromagnetic spectrum.

I notice half the actors changed for the kids. Shadowcat, Jubilee, Pyro, and most of the unnamed ones don't match with the first film either.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 3, 2003)

Crothian said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, Toad and Sabertooth as well *





Both of those were vague enough that I am unsure if they were actually slain.

Toad was fried with electricity so sure he might be dead.

SAbertooth though was merely fell a very long distance. Since he has regeneration ability I doubt this actually killed him.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 3, 2003)

I think he was refering to Toad and Sabertooth dispatching the guards on liberty island. Not their defeats, which definately left room for them to return if need be.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (May 3, 2003)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *I think he was refering to Toad and Sabertooth dispatching the guards on liberty island. Not their defeats, which definately left room for them to return if need be. *






D'oh!


----------



## Dr Midnight (May 3, 2003)

Man, what a damn movie. Loved it. I'm not even an X-Men fan, and I was giddy. Terrific! 

Nightcrawler was freakin' incredible to watch, and I loved Storm's development. I greatly enjoyed seeing Scott vs. Jean and Pyro's darkening. 

Magneto and Mystique were just fantastic. Magneto's escape is now one of my favorite on-screen escapes, just behind Shawshank and Silence of the Lambs. Those iron balls smashing back and forth as he walked along was maybe my favorite visual of the whole damn film. A close second would be Nightcrawler's Rogue rescue. 

The end scene was very well done. I was very very well-teased. Ahh, I need sentinels and Juggernaut, dammit!

I now rate this movie, as a comic movie, just behind Superman, my number 1. By all rights Otis should push Superman behind X2... X2 really is the better product as a consistent whole, but Reeves' Supes is just too perfect... So I give this a biased 2nd place. 

For anyone who will want to post "why bother ranking good movies?", it's a geek habit. We organize our beloved.

Oh, to live in such an age, when comic book movies are being made regularly, and a good number of them are very very good. Long live Avi Arad and Saint Stan. Here's to THE HULK's being in the same ballpark...


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 3, 2003)

On another note...did anyone happen to catch Stan Lee? Or was he not in this one?


----------



## the Jester (May 4, 2003)

Fantastic.

I noticed a lot of the little references, but missed enough that I'll definitely have to watch for them next time...


----------



## Wormwood (May 4, 2003)

Quick notes:

1. I loved Nightcrawler's German accent. Perfect.

2. I *really* loved the absence of Halle Berry's ridiculous African accent.

That is all.


----------



## Bran Blackbyrd (May 4, 2003)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> *Quick notes:
> 
> 1. I loved Nightcrawler's German accent. Perfect.
> *




Hehe. His German accent was pretty good in Cabaret as well. Any opinions on his Russian accent in Goldeneye?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 4, 2003)

Bran Blackbyrd said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hehe. His German accent was pretty good in Cabaret as well. Any opinions on his Russian accent in Goldeneye?  *




"I'm invincible!"  

Well, I don't know how accurate it was, but at least it was consistant, and his character was a hoot in Goldeneye.


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 4, 2003)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> *On another note...did anyone happen to catch Stan Lee? Or was he not in this one?
> 
> *




I'm pretty sure he wasn't in it, at all. I read an article about that, a while ago (how X2 would be the first Marvel movie he wasn't in). But he still plans on making cameos in each franchise, e.g. in the Hulk movie but not necessarily the next Spidey.

About the kid with glasses, I don't think he was Cypher. I'm not convinced he's a character from the comics at all. They needed a kid who doesn't sleep, so they made one.


----------



## Psychotic Dreamer (May 4, 2003)

For the kid with glasses who was changing the channels with blinking...  I'm thinking back to X-Factor to either just before or just after the Mutant Masacre.  There was a villain that could control various frequencies and such.  In theory the kid could be a vague form of this guy.  Can't remember much more than that due to it having been many moons since I read it and don't know where it is in massive comics collection.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 4, 2003)

Highly entertaining film, but I'm a little ambivalent right now because they blew what should have been the most powerful moment of the film; Jean Grey's death.

First it was a mistake the way they had Cyclops react to her speaking through Professor X.  He should have just listened to the Professor while watching her mouth the words outside, his hand pressed against the glass of the jet cockpit, almost trying to will her back into the plane.

But having him get all cuddly with Patrick Stewart caused giggles and even some bursts of laughter.  *Not* the reaction the scene was going for.

Then when she died Cyclops was way too mellow.  They should have cranked up the music while he screamed and everyone held him down, with Logan off on his one, utterly stunned.

At the very least we should have seen a _little_ more than the pat "She's gone", and then nothing, no heartwrenching music, nothing.

That should have been X2's "death of Spock" or "death of Lois Lane" scene, without a dry eye in the house.  But it just didn't have the punch it needed.

Everything else pretty much kicked ass.

Side note:  *Millions* of people would have been killed by the little Professor X/Jason Stryker stunt.  Everyone in the world clutches their head and screams for two minutes straight?  Yeah everyone on every freeway in every country with cars going more than 50 mph DEAD.

Ditto for any commercial jets that would have been landing.

The last scene in the Oval Office was also a tad dorky, but damn, Nightcrawler, Collosus, Logan, Lady D, Mystique, just a ton of coolness.

EDIT:  Oh and the Drakes coming home to find Logan standing in their kitchen holding a beer....classic!


----------



## Sixchan (May 4, 2003)

I saw it two days ago, and loved it.
I caught virtually no references to anything from the comics, seeing as I've never read them.  I do watch X-Men Evolution, though.

Don't have much to nitpick, except that Kitty didn't get a bigger part.

Oh, and the Pyro scene ROCKED.  As did Magneto busting out of prison.


----------



## Starman (May 4, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *
> EDIT:  Oh and the Drakes coming home to find Logan standing in their kitchen holding a beer....classic! *




Don't forget:

"What are you a professor of?"

"Art."

 

Starman


----------



## DonAdam (May 4, 2003)

I give it a 2/5.

There was nothing at all mediocre about the movie. Everything was great or utterly stupid.

It was plot hole central (note that I'm only using the movies as a frame of reference, I think it's unfair to do a straight comparison to the comic):

1) Nightcrawler was super badass in the first scene. I knew from that moment that he would be incompetent by comparison for the rest of the film. They could have done some kind of brainwashing explanation (make him a sleeper agent), but they just went with the drip. Lame.

2) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. 

3) The whole break-in to the base. They had Magneto with them, and then they launch this complicated plan to attack a base mostly made out of metal.

4) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. 

5) For that matter, why didn't Magneto and Mystique just steal the jet and go themselves? They didn't need any help, and bringing the others along is just asking to get thwarted.

6) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. 

7) The worst scene of the movie was the Jean Grey death scene. When your climax is the worst scene, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. If Jean can flip all those switches from outside the ship, there was no reason she couldn't have stopped the water from outside the ship.

8) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. 

9) At the beginning of the movie, and on the plane, Nightcrawler had no problem teleporting where he couldn't see (too accurately for my taste, actually). At the end, he was scared he would run into something _when he was about to teleport through a door_. Last time I checked, most people don't build walls on the other sides of doors.

10) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. 

11) Wolverine could smell who Mystique was in the last movie. Why not this one?

11) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. 

12) In the plane chase scene Magneto sealed up the blackbird. When they were flying back to Washington, the hole came back. I thought that was an appropriate analogy for the whole movie.

13) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane.  WTF???

But just so that you don't think I'm all negative, here's what was good:
1) Pyro was consistently interesting, and the scene outside of Bobby's house when Rogue had to stop him was excellent.
2) The prison escape scene was marvelous.
3) Wolverine wasn't acting like a teenager like in the last movie.
4) Jean showed much more personality than before.
5) Mystique was done better this time around.
6) Lady Deathstrike, while still lame, wasn't as lame as in the comics.
7) The cameos were well done and not distracting.
8) Nightcrawler (my favorite X-Men character) was done well about 70% of the time.

I also disliked the idea of Professor X concentrating and killing people. While not a flaw, it was silly.

The movie came across like it was written by 14 different people who didn't talk to each other. Individual scenes were good, but it was so horribly inconsistent and full of plot holes that it didn't click as a whole film.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 4, 2003)

Something it seems a lot of people are missing about Jean's death scene. Why couldn't she just do what she did from the ship? She could have. Why didn't she? She felt the need to sacrifice herself. It seems strange, but it goes to the basic priniciple that shows up ever now and that about people about to die, and not actually TRYING to stop it...instead, they walk into it with full knowledge. THAT is why I loved that scene.  
And as for the Art Professor thing. What's horrible...that's what I'm studying to BE.


----------



## JamesL85 (May 4, 2003)

An inconsistency??? Or am I delusional????

I was thinking that in the first movie, Wolverine asked something about finding them in the jet or something (I thought it was on their approach to liberty island, but I just watched that scene on DVD and it wasn't there).  Can someone correct me if I'm wrong here?

My question is:  If they couldn't be seen on radar in the first movie, how did the fighter jets find them and "lock on" so easily in the second?

If I imagined the first part, my question is irrelavent.....LOL


----------



## Kanegrundar (May 4, 2003)

Jean was worried about hurting everyone else if she attempted to use he power from the ship.  Remember the fire that blasted out from her body during her fight with Cyclops that ruptured the dam.  That's why she had to leave the ship in order to save everyone.

Kane


----------



## WizarDru (May 4, 2003)

Kanegrundar said:
			
		

> *Jean was worried about hurting everyone else if she attempted to use he power from the ship.  Remember the fire that blasted out from her body during her fight with Cyclops that ruptured the dam.  That's why she had to leave the ship in order to save everyone.*




What, do I stutter?


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 4, 2003)

I was very pleased with the movie, the characters were better written and the story was very solid.  

Hugh is coming along with Logon, too bad he is too tall.  

They also had a lot of close up of Mystique body too.    Now, don't get me wrong here, Logon is the kind of guy that would have had his fun with Mystique and keep his mouth shut, he did it in the comic!

 of 5


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 4, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What, do I stutter?  *




Yes.


----------



## Lokicyde (May 4, 2003)

Magneto's escape scene leaves no ass to be kicked.  Damn showoff.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 4, 2003)

JamesL85 said:
			
		

> *An inconsistency??? Or am I delusional????
> 
> I was thinking that in the first movie, Wolverine asked something about finding them in the jet or something (I thought it was on their approach to liberty island, but I just watched that scene on DVD and it wasn't there).*




It went something to the effect of:

WOLVERINE:  "What about radar?"

CYCLOPS: "If they can detect this ship, they deserve to catch us."


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 4, 2003)

My main problem with tehe first movie was that they had a lot of characters with one line or such. It weakened them somewhat.
In 2, they expand their dialogue a lot, but it really starts to show where some of them just don't seem to fit their roles. Jean Grey didn't seem comfortable being Jean Grey for instance.

Magneto's escape scene was great, as was Pyro throughout the movie. Rogue really seemed to only be in this movie because she was in the first, and her role here was lacking IMO.
I enjoyed Kitty and Collosus more than most of Rogue for instance.

I also really wanted a large phoenix when she was holding back the water.
I also think it would have been better if the water where she was had iced over, then you saw the melted pattern of the Phoenix.

I didn't like the look of Nightcrawler really. Mystique was definetly better this time around, but I really wish I could see her & er, Freedom Force? in the next one. I want Spiral!

All in all, a great movie, and I didn't mind Magneto & Mystique taunting Rogue. I do wonder what Rogue had planned to do against them though 

(I wonder if Iceman will be skating around on Ice next movie...)


----------



## Kai Lord (May 4, 2003)

DonAdam said:
			
		

> *I give it a 2/5.
> 
> There was nothing at all mediocre about the movie. Everything was great or utterly stupid.*




Heh.



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *It was plot hole central (note that I'm only using the movies as a frame of reference, I think it's unfair to do a straight comparison to the comic):
> 
> 1) Nightcrawler was super badass in the first scene. I knew from that moment that he would be incompetent by comparison for the rest of the film. They could have done some kind of brainwashing explanation (make him a sleeper agent), but they just went with the drip. Lame.*




Nightcrawler was a good guy, and his little tirade at the beginning caused almost all the woes of the entire film.  It made perfect sense for him to show restraint after that.  Besides, he did exactly what was needed, what do you think he should have done?



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *2) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. *



Heh, this was so ridiculous I found it genuinely funny.  "Tee hee, look Mystique, her hair's white, tee hee hee.  The star quarterback will definitely choose me instead of her now, tee hee hee."  Priceless.  I wouldn't change a thing.  Plus I got a kick out of Magneto's subtle irritation over Pyro mentioning how dorky his helmet was.



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *9) At the beginning of the movie, and on the plane, Nightcrawler had no problem teleporting where he couldn't see (too accurately for my taste, actually). At the end, he was scared he would run into something when he was about to teleport through a door. Last time I checked, most people don't build walls on the other sides of doors.*




Come on dude, we're talking about a movie with teleporting mutants.    If he says its dangerous, then it is.  For all we know Nightcrawler risked his life every time he "bamfed" into another room at the White House.  And the Rogue rescue was just freaking COOL, which was the point.  If his accuracy was a hang-up, just assume he made a really good guess.  If you can't suspend your disbelief over something so minor, why the heck did you plunk down the cash for a movie based on a comic book?


----------



## Silver Moon (May 4, 2003)

Actually, the Magneto/Rogue interchange on the plane made perfect sense to me.   When people who do not get along due to past situations are forced to spend time together there is a great deal of tension.  It is not surprising that one might try to make a not-so-funny joke, that the other does not apppreciate.    I'm sure that I'm not the only person who has seen this same type of behavior at weddings where divorced couples are present.


----------



## DonAdam (May 4, 2003)

Sure, people make jokes in poor taste in those situations; but not Magneto. It was totally out of character.

The helmet comment, on the other hand, made perfect sense and was very funny.

Now, though, it's time for the rant about suspending disbelief:

I'm all for suspending disbelief. I'm watching a movie about mutants and superheroes.

However, all I ask for is consistency. The problem with Nightcrawler switching from teleporting blind to not doing it was the total lack of consistency with what I had accepted from the movie (in willing suspension of disbelief) before.

Some people say that suspension of disbelief also means I shouldn't worry about consistency. This is nonsense. If you cannot ground moments of tension in what is happening and has happened in the film and have to resort to constantly changing the rules, there is no basis for the tension. I have no reason to care about Jean sacrificing herself when I know she could have done the same thing from the cockpit.

And I don't go looking for inconsistencies. I've had people point them out in other movies such as the Matrix and Minority Report, but they were few and relatively subtle. But this movie kicked me in the face repeatedly with them, and at what were supposed to be terribly dramatic moments.

Compare this to the first film. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that wasn't consistent. It was very carefully constructed. Even the cartoon (from the early 90's, not that 90210 evolution nonsense) showed more careful plot construction than X2 did.

There is no reason to feel any tension or care at all about what's going on when the film makers are just going to fiat what happens left and right. That is very, very, very poor moviemaking.

Why did I pay the money? Because the first film, despite a few minor problems, did an amazing job and didn't have these issues.


----------



## Richards (May 4, 2003)

As far as the hesitation at teleporting to the other side of the door goes, bear in mind that that thing wasn't just any old door, it was a metal blast door.  Just how thick was it?  Hard to tell from the outside.  Had Nightcrawler teleported to the other side, giving himself enough clearance for a normal door's thickness and then found out the thing was three feet thick, he'd be dead.  If he decided to teleport ten feet straight ahead, he runs the chance of materializing inside something in the room.  Kind of hard to call, not knowing what's on the other side.

Johnathan


----------



## Wormwood (May 4, 2003)

You make some good points, but I have a couple of my own.


_1) Nightcrawler was super badass in the first scene. _

I'd say that under the effects of the brain-juice, Nightcrawler was free to express all of his repressed badassedness. I also assumed it was a big fat jolt of fearlessness. 

_2) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane. _

Dude, I really thought that was funny. This one of the most powerful men on the planet, taking time out of his busy genocidal schedule to mock a little girl. That was a really cool character moment for me: it's easy to set up a character as an 'evil genius', but to make him catty, petty and puerile? Genius.

_3) The whole break-in to the base. They had Magneto with them, and then they launch this complicated plan to attack a base mostly made out of metal._

I'll cheerfully concede that. 

_5) For that matter, why didn't Magneto and Mystique just steal the jet and go themselves? They didn't need any help, and bringing the others along is just asking to get thwarted._

Exactly. It's not like Lady Deathstrike would pose much of a problem to old Magnus. Just kill everyone inside, set Xavier to 'kill bot' and be home before General Hospital.

_7) The worst scene of the movie was the Jean Grey death scene. _

Eh. I didn't have a problem with it...mainly because I thought the reason she left the ship was because her powers were interfering with electronics (um, except for the dogfight earlier---but shhhhh). I was hoping that the engines would start up once she left the area (which would prove my hypothesis), but I *hated* the fact that she turned them on via remote control. Point conceded.

_9) At the beginning of the movie, and on the plane, Nightcrawler had no problem teleporting where he couldn't see (too accurately for my taste, actually). _

Again, I think he was acting with doped-up, reckless abandon in the opening. No problem there.

But yeah, it's pretty safe to assume that the two feet in front of a door is probably clear. Lame excuse for a callback to the Storm/Kurt 'faith' moment. 

_11) Wolverine could smell who Mystique was in the last movie. Why not this one?_

I wracked by brains to come up with a counter to this, but all I could come up with is Hugh Jackman really lobbied hard for some 'grind-time' with Famke Janssen. 

I don't blame him.

_12) In the plane chase scene Magneto sealed up the blackbird. When they were flying back to Washington, the hole came back. I thought that was an appropriate analogy for the whole movie._

Great line , but no dice. I just checked it out: while the plane is pretty banged up, there is no hole in the return trip. It ain't pretty, but it's sealed.

I mean, if there was a big, gaping hole in the plane, wouldn't Scott have jumped out of it?

Sorry.

edit: me no talk so good.


----------



## Henry (May 5, 2003)

DonAdam said:
			
		

> *Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane.
> *




In my opinion, I loved this scene and wouldn't have changed a thing. Magneto and Mystique's pleasure at Rogue's pain was perfect for them. And I equally loved Rogue's reaction - Taking off her glove and heading for Magneto with that "I'm gonna take you behind the woodshed" look.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 5, 2003)

DonAdam said:
			
		

> *Some people say that suspension of disbelief also means I shouldn't worry about consistency. This is nonsense.*



Since none of those people are on this thread, who cares?  There's nothing inconsistent about Nightcrawler correctly guessing where Rogue would be at that exact moment in her freefall.  One in a million guess, but those are the kinds of things that show up in movies, and not just those about super heroes.

As for Wolverine smelling Mystique, maybe she remembered what happened the last time she tried to sneak up on him and stole some of Jean's perfume.   

Or his mind was in the wrong place causing him to breath through his mouth...


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 5, 2003)

DonAdam said:
			
		

> *11) Wolverine could smell who Mystique was in the last movie. Why not this one?*




This wasn't so strange. In the first movie, he was actively sniffing for her, fully alert and on the look-out. In the second, he was half-asleep, and he _wanted_ to believe it was really Jean.


----------



## John Crichton (May 5, 2003)

DonAdam said:
			
		

> *1) Nightcrawler was super badass in the first scene. I knew from that moment that he would be incompetent by comparison for the rest of the film. They could have done some kind of brainwashing explanation (make him a sleeper agent), but they just went with the drip. Lame.*



Not a plot hole, just something that you didn't like.  I had no problem with it at all as the same technique was used on Lady Deathstrike, Cyclops & Magneto, not to mention a more powerful version on Professor X.

And Nightcrawler was not incompentent by comparison in the rest of the film.  He was fighting regular men with guns plus he had no reguard for his own welfare as he was sent on a death mission.  The heroics he displayed later in the film (while not as stunning nor did it look as cool) were much more difficult in comparison.


			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *3) The whole break-in to the base. They had Magneto with them, and then they launch this complicated plan to attack a base mostly made out of metal.*



Yeah, but they wanted to keep Professor X and the kidnapped kids alive.  And that base was (as you saw) holding back water.  Magneto, while powerful, can't do it all himself.


			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *5) For that matter, why didn't Magneto and Mystique just steal the jet and go themselves? They didn't need any help, and bringing the others along is just asking to get thwarted.*



He would have had to kill the others to get the jet.  Storm would have assumably stopped him.



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *7) The worst scene of the movie was the Jean Grey death scene. When your climax is the worst scene, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. If Jean can flip all those switches from outside the ship, there was no reason she couldn't have stopped the water from outside the ship.*



_EDIT (oops, forget to respond to this one):_It did seem like should could get the jet going from inside but there is nothing that showed that she could have held the water at bay from inside the jet.  Additionally, it certainly seemed like something else was at play in that scene that drove her to leave the jet and the rest of the X-men. _[end EDIT]_


			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *9) At the beginning of the movie, and on the plane, Nightcrawler had no problem teleporting where he couldn't see (too accurately for my taste, actually). At the end, he was scared he would run into something when he was about to teleport through a door. Last time I checked, most people don't build walls on the other sides of doors.*



There's more than just walls to worry about.  There is the floor as well.  If it is at a different elevation or there is someone standing there, that would be bad.  And as for the place rescue, that is easy.  Makes one quick teleport outside the plane, looks down, sees Rogue, teleports to her then back to the plane.


			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *The movie came across like it was written by 14 different people who didn't talk to each other. Individual scenes were good, but it was so horribly inconsistent and full of plot holes that it didn't click as a whole film. *



I'll admit, the movie wasn't perfect and it did seem like the film was a tad disjointed, but calling it horribly inconsistent is not accurate.  It had a beginning a middle and an end.  I had no trouble following the events that conspired throughout.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 5, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *And as for the plane rescue, that is easy.  Makes one quick teleport outside the plane, looks down, sees Rogue, teleports to her then back to the plane.*




I considered mentioning that, but to me it kind of felt like cheating since the editing so strongly implies that he made one 'port to reach her.  Of course, if you wanted to get _really_ picky you could wonder whether or not Nightcrawler and Rogue should have been pancaked by the back of the seat hitting them at 700 mph when they teleported back into the plane....  



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> *I'll admit, the movie wasn't perfect and it did seem like the film was a tad disjointed, but calling it horribly inconsistent is not accurate.  It had a beginning a middle and an end.  I had no trouble following the events that conspired throughout. *



A criticism I have for the movie itself is that it does feel more like a collection of awesome scenes rather than a satisfying story arc.  Even though its based on a comic book and the episodic nature thereof, I do think its important to stay true to the medium of film; developing and resolving things in a satisfying manner (as with the original Superman and Spider-Man, heck even Daredevil managed this where X2 did not).  In this regard, X1 was the superior film, X2 was just a hell of a lot more fun.  

Interestingly enough, X2 felt more like a story out of a role-playing adventure than a movie.


----------



## John Crichton (May 5, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *I considered mentioning that, but to me it kind of felt like cheating since the editing so strongly implies that he made one 'port to reach her.  Of course, if you wanted to get really picky you could wonder whether or not Nightcrawler and Rogue should have been pancaked by the back of the seat hitting them at 700 mph when they teleported back into the plane....  *



It is a bit of a stretch as I thought the same thing.  I guess my point was that he didn't really have to guess as to where Rogue was, he could have seen her from the air.  Not as difficult or risky as teleporting to a place he's never seen.  


			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *A criticism I have for the movie itself is that it does feel more like a collection of awesome scenes rather than a satisfying story arc.  Even though its based on a comic book and the episodic nature thereof, I do think its important to stay true to the medium of film; developing and resolving things in a satisfying manner (as with the original Superman and Spider-Man, heck even Daredevil managed this where X2 did not).  In this regard, X1 was the superior film, X2 was just a hell of a lot more fun.  *



The overall scenes do feel a bit disjointed which means that they probably had some editing issues.  It was reported that they did a decent amount of cutting to get it to a PG-13 rating.  But even though the scenes were a bit off from each other, they still made for an entertaining film.  Plus, I never felt that the narrative suffered because of it.  I always felt like I could follow the story with no hitches.


----------



## WizarDru (May 5, 2003)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> *3) The whole break-in to the base. They had Magneto with them, and then they launch this complicated plan to attack a base mostly made out of metal.
> 
> I'll cheerfully concede that. *




Did Magneto learn to breathe underwater sometime during his incarceration?  They make it pretty clear that anyone who wanders into the tunnel is getting a face full of dam runoff...they almost do it to 'Logan' until they realize who it is.  Let's not confuse comic Magneto's range of abilities with movie Magneto's.  He can't fly, and doesn't generate a magnetic 'force-bubble' to protect himself.  Bullets?  Not a problem.  Hundreds of tons of water?  Big Problem.  Never mind the fact that the first movie reasonably establishes that movie Magneto is a hypocritical coward....he's not willing to die for the cause, but he'll martyr a little girl for it.


As for Wolverine not being able to tell the difference between Mystique and Jean, two ideas come to mind.  One, it's a non-combat situation, and an already rattled and exhausted Logan is taken by suprise by his most extreme fantasy come to life.  He's just too damned confused to realize.  He's not infallible, after all.  Two, Mystique may just have learned how to mask or change her scent to match, now that she nows some people can tell.  Remember, this is the same person who can get fingerprints from handshake a day earlier, and can mimic voices perfectly.  It would have been nice to have a line of dialogue to reveal that, but c'est la vie.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 5, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *It is a bit of a stretch as I thought the same thing.  I guess my point was that he didn't really have to guess as to where Rogue was, he could have seen her from the air.  Not as difficult or risky as teleporting to a place he's never seen.
> The overall scenes do feel a bit disjointed which means that they probably had some editing issues.  It was reported that they did a decent amount of cutting to get it to a PG-13 rating.  But even though the scenes were a bit off from each other, they still made for an entertaining film.  Plus, I never felt that the narrative suffered because of it.  I always felt like I could follow the story with no hitches. *



I didn't have any problems following the story either, it was just that I found a number of the mini-stories to be more engaging than the overall story.  Mainly this just comes from slightly botched resolutions to the main story threads, IMO.

Logan's last interaction with a chained up Stryker was ho-hum, Jean's sacrifice missed the mark mainly because of how the reactions of Cyclops and Logan were directed, and the whole "X-Men appear in the Oval Office to give the Pres some friendly words of advice" wrap-up was way too tidy and even a bit silly.

This was a film where the journey of the characters was much more compelling than the destination, and that's too bad, because it would have been nice to see Singer knock this one out of the park.

EDIT:  I also think the X-Men are at their best without a Gandalf-figure leading them around by the nose.  I loved the dynamic at the climax of X1 when Cyclops was in charge and trying to keep Wolverine in line.

X2 once again incapacitated Professor X to somewhat facilitate this, but then replaced him with Magneto!  I loved the idea of the X-Men teaming up with former enemies, but they deferred to his leadership way too easily, and became borderline lackeys.

All that was left for them to do was fight their respective showdowns.  Well, not totally, but the characters didn't come into their own the way I would have liked, or like they did in the first film.

Sweet, sweet flick, the few disappointing directorial decisions just came at some pretty pivotal moments.


----------



## John Crichton (May 5, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *Logan's last interaction with a chained up Stryker was ho-hum, Jean's sacrifice missed the mark mainly because of how the reactions of Cyclops and Logan were directed, and the whole "X-Men appear in the Oval Office to give the Pres some friendly words of advice" wrap-up was way too tidy and even a bit silly.*



The wrap-up was a little off, but I didn't have any issues with it.  I didn't mind the words so much as that they had evidence to give the President (that he could verify) as to what has been going on.  I actually liked Logan's reaction to her death.  Scott's was a tad odd only because of his proximity to Xavier at the time (the giggles from the crowd didn't help).  But his pain worked for me, especially considering I couldn't see his eyes.

I am looking forward to seeing it again, either on DVD or in the theater because usually upon the second viewing I am able to be more critical.  The first time I see a film, I tend to let my critical side stay home so I can fully enjoy the $10 I just spent.  


			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *This was a film where the journey of the characters was much more compelling than the destination, and that's too bad, because it would have been nice to see Singer knock this one out of the park. *



If he had knocked it out of the park, this would have been a better movie than Superman.  As it stands, they have themselves set up to make at least one more excellent sequel.  I would like to see more than that but it will be hard to keep the cast together.  I guess if they can keep the key players interested (Jackman, Stewart, McKellen) other actors could pick up the roles in the future...


----------



## Kai Lord (May 5, 2003)

John, check out the edit/update I made to my last post.  I'm curious as to whether or not you agree.



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> *I am looking forward to seeing it again, either on DVD or in the theater because usually upon the second viewing I am able to be more critical.  The first time I see a film, I tend to let my critical side stay home so I can fully enjoy the $10 I just spent.  *



The reason I am a bit critical of certain things is because for the most part the build up was _so_ well done that it called attention to the less than spectacular resolution.  I had an enormous amount of fun, but I couldn't help but feel a little bit teased when all was said and done.

Someone commented that the hole in the Blackbird summed up the film for him, for me it would be Collosus' cameo.  Awesome, but give me more...



			
				John Crichton said:
			
		

> *If he had knocked it out of the park, this would have been a better movie than Superman.  As it stands, they have themselves set up to make at least one more excellent sequel.  I would like to see more than that but it will be hard to keep the cast together.  I guess if they can keep the key players interested (Jackman, Stewart, McKellen) other actors could pick up the roles in the future... *



If they wrap this whole thing up Return of the King style with one and only one more film, then a lot of my criticisms of X2 will be pacified.  If they try to make the next one just a teaser for X4 I'll be very disappointed.


----------



## DonAdam (May 5, 2003)

I will concede one thing:

I had forgotten that Jean had screwed up the electronics at the beginning, so it makes sense that she left the plane if that was the reason. That would even explain the missile scene, as she was not surrounded by lots of people with telepathic overload then.

As far as disjointed, I wasn't speaking about the overall plot. Maybe I'm used to the comics, but a string of tangentially related elements works fine for me as the plot, especially as the middle part of a trilogy. I was talking about the characters' personalities and the way they used their powers.

I can almost see the point about Nightcrawler not wanting to teleport into the base, but when he was scared to go into the cerebro room it was ridiculous. Half the people there could have told him what it looked like. It was clearly nothing more than a setup for the silly Storm line, which was a total and unexplained switch from what the characters had said earlier.
In fact, I will conced all points about Nightcrawler EXCEPT the door scene. It was just beyond stupid.

I don't have a problem with Magneto showing personality, just with him showing the personality of a 13 year old girl.  As I said, his interaction with Pyro was brilliant. Also, how did he know that the Ellis Island incident caused her hair to change? He was unconscious.

As far as Magneto entering the base, I realize that he doesn't do electromagnetic fields like in the comics, but if he can escape from a super bad cell the way he did the thugs in there would have stood no chance.
The water question is irrelevant: huge portions of that base were made out of metal.

Given those observations, I'll raise my review to a 2.5 or 3/5, with the worst things either making sense now (Jean) or being too short to really matter (Magneto acting like an anime schoolgirl [without the unfunny sex humor]).


----------



## Wormwood (May 5, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Did Magneto learn to breathe underwater sometime during his incarceration?  They make it pretty clear that anyone who wanders into the tunnel is getting a face full of dam runoff...they almost do it to 'Logan' until they realize who it is.  Let's not confuse comic Magneto's range of abilities with movie Magneto's.  He can't fly, and doesn't generate a magnetic 'force-bubble' to protect himself.  Bullets?  Not a problem.  Hundreds of tons of water?  Big Problem.  *




Notice I said that Magneto *and* Mystique could have taken out the whole base by themselves. Their actions in the film prove that to be true.

Mystique *alone* manages to get in and turn off the water. In my opinion, the subsequent actions of the X-Men were superfluous at best---and could easily have been handled by Magneto and Mystie.

Magneto proved that he could dispatch the guards and bust in *and out* with only Mystiques help. Not using his comic book powers, just the ones he displayed in the base scenes. 

ps. I *liked* the movie.


----------



## Spatula (May 5, 2003)

DonAdam said:
			
		

> *9) At the beginning of the movie, and on the plane, Nightcrawler had no problem teleporting where he couldn't see (too accurately for my taste, actually). At the end, he was scared he would run into something when he was about to teleport through a door. Last time I checked, most people don't build walls on the other sides of doors.*



I remember thinking during the opening scene, "Why doesn't he just teleport into the oval office, instead of working his way through roomfuls of agents with guns?"  I've only seen the movie once so I could be wrong, but from my recollection Kurt never teleports through a closed door in that scene, which struck me as odd at the time.  Every time he goes into a new room he teleports through an open doorway.

And with regard to there being walls on the other side, yeah there's small chance of that, but what if there's some furniture?  A box?  A person?  Teleporting into someone else probably isn't much better than teleporting into a wall.

The dialogue between Storm and Nightcrawler was unbelievably lame though.


----------



## Kai Lord (May 5, 2003)

Actually there was a moment in the film where I thought they did make a significant continuity blunder.  When Mystique is at the White House computer looking for info on Cerebro isn't she perturbed not to be able to pull up info on its location, _even though she had personally been there in the first film?_


----------



## Bagpuss (May 5, 2003)

Wormwood said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Notice I said that Magneto *and* Mystique could have taken out the whole base by themselves. Their actions in the film prove that to be true.
> 
> ...




Guards yes but Cyclops would have turned Mystique and Magneto into mutant jelly if Jean hadn't been there. Magneto hand no idea how many mutants Stryker had under his control, he was just taking sensible procautions, by bringing some disposable X-Men along.

On another matter if you watch the first scene of the movie, you'll notice Nightcrawler has already scoped a lot of the Whitehouse going round on the tour, so he may have seen many of the corridors he appears to teleport round corners to.

As for the entrance into the oval office there is a reason they zoom in on the closed door and the spy-hole in it. Nightcrawler could get an idea of the room by looking back through that. Hence the pause between dispatching the guards outside and entering the oval office.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 5, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *Actually there was a moment in the film where I thought they did make a significant continuity blunder.  When Mystique is at the White House computer looking for info on Cerebro isn't she perturbed not to be able to pull up info on its location, even though she had personally been there in the first film? *




She was looking for the location of Cerebro 2, not the original Cerebro.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 5, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Let's not confuse comic Magneto's range of abilities with movie Magneto's.  He can't fly..*




Actually he can fly. In the first film he flys towards the train he just ripped appart and then flys out of the head of the statue of liberty to the torch.

Still both he and Mystique would have been killed by Cyclops blast had not Jean saved them. So they couldn't have done it on their own.


----------



## John Crichton (May 5, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *John, check out the edit/update I made to my last post. I'm curious as to whether or not you agree.*



Okay, comments below.  


			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *EDIT:  I also think the X-Men are at their best without a Gandalf-figure leading them around by the nose.  I loved the dynamic at the climax of X1 when Cyclops was in charge and trying to keep Wolverine in line.
> 
> X2 once again incapacitated Professor X to somewhat facilitate this, but then replaced him with Magneto!  I loved the idea of the X-Men teaming up with former enemies, but they deferred to his leadership way too easily, and became borderline lackeys.
> 
> ...



The climax to X1 was pretty good for the Wolvie/Cyclops banter but I never actually felt that Scott was in charge there (even though he may have been).  And it has been a bit since I have seen it but I actually don't recall much leading around by Prof. X in either of the films.  I do like that he has had other things to deal with besides leading around the X-men as it would diminish their individuality and make it feel like less than a movie and more like a half-hour cartoon.

Also, the team-up with Magneto & Mystique worked for me.  I never felt that Magneto was in charge as he needed the X-men to find the place and get there quickly.  I didn't get the lacky vibe at all from the situation as they all had their reasons for going together - Magneto to save mutants from extinction, Wolvie for revenge/info, and the rest basically to save/stop Prof. X and rescue the kids.  I actually kinda felt like they let Magneto come along just because he helped them.  It just seemed like they all agreed to not kill each other for the time being and focus on something bigger than themselves.

And one final comparison to X1:  I thought that this movie was better in all forms, character-wise and action-wise.  There were no cringe-worthy lines and unlike the first one, this movie left me wanting more of what I already saw.

Also, on a general X-men note:  I did not go into this movie with high-expectations.  I was looking forward to it only because of the trailer.  While I enjoyed the first movie, it did not make my mouth salivate for a sequel.  So basically I saw a movie that really blew me away because I didn't think it would be that good (especially in comparison to my feeling about the first one).  I hope that clears a few things up.


----------



## satori01 (May 5, 2003)

I personally liked the movie very much, and appreciated the expanded characters and expanded story arc.  Frankly I find it the best of the comic hero genre,(which generally I am not a big fan of).  William Stryker was played brillantly.  I hate over the top villians,  Stryker seemed belivable to me.   Old school Brittish stage actors have acting economy down to a science.  Stewart and Mcllean have the stage presence to not  have to melodrama their scenes, which is so nice and refreshing. (Elijah "whinny frodo" Wood please take note)

Concerning the Jean Grey death sequence,  it seems like she should be able to power the plane from the inside, however as the Phoenix plot arc seems to be implied, how can one have a phoenix rise from the ashes w/o any ashes?

The final evolutionary narration by the actress of Jean Grey seems to imply that she had some foreknowledge of what the transformation would require.  Grey also had many vague missgivings for future catosrophe all of which may not have applied directly to the circumstances at hand.  The Xavier "choice" speech might also imply that Xavier has some inkling as well of what she did.


----------



## John Crichton (May 5, 2003)

Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *The reason I am a bit critical of certain things is because for the most part the build up was so well done that it called attention to the less than spectacular resolution.  I had an enormous amount of fun, but I couldn't help but feel a little bit teased when all was said and done.*



This, I can see and agree with.  I do have to say that while I do feel teased by the ending, that was the point of it (keep in mind that I have no idea what this Phoenix Saga thing is).  At least it didn't undermine and diminish the rest of the film, at least for me.  It actually added to it's feel because I knew that there was more to this world than just the film.  These characters would continue to live and fight on.  Many people have said that this film felt like "Wrath of Khan" done X-men style.  While I won't go that far, it did borrow some well-done elements from it - ending where you know there is more to come, death and learning about oneself - for Khan the theme was old-age, with this movie a theme isn't so clear.  But I guess that is the difference between a classic (Khan) and a really good film (X2).


			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *Someone commented that the hole in the Blackbird summed up the film for him, for me it would be Collosus' cameo.  Awesome, but give me more...*



I agree with this as well.







			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *If they wrap this whole thing up Return of the King style with one and only one more film, then a lot of my criticisms of X2 will be pacified.  If they try to make the next one just a teaser for X4 I'll be very disappointed. *



If the next film is as good as this one, complete with the promise of another film, I would be up for that.  As long as they can keep the momentum going and keep feeding us new stories and characters, I'm there.


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 5, 2003)

I figured Magneto laughing at Rogue was a small amount of psychological warfare on his part. Keep the Xmen tense around him, don't let them relax, keep them off guard so that when he needs to he can discard them.

Plus, the way he asked Pyro "What's your _real_ name?" was a wonderful moment.

I also think that the whole Jean Grey death was handled well. She couldn't have used her powers to that extent inside the plane because 1) it would have screwed up the electronics as it did when she got an overload at the beginning and 2) the flames and energy might have hurt everyone else in the room. Perfectly reasonable.

I loved this movie, I didn't think that there were any plot holes at all. And Storm's line to Nightcrawler was, to me, an example of a character changing their mind about someone, having witnessed what they are really like over the course of time. Plus, she's a good leader, and good leaders know what to say to get their troops to do what's necessary!

Finally, the oh-so-subtle Phoenix in the water was far better than anything else. It tips off those in the know, it goes right past people that don't know, and if you catch it you might get curious. Any blatant Phoenix symbol in the snow would have been about as original as Jean's hand bursting through the water wreathed in flames.


----------



## dravot (May 5, 2003)

Overall I was quite pleased with the movie.  IMO, it was better than the first one, and a lot of fun to watch.

My only quibble with the movie was when Wolverine, Rogue, Bobby and Pyro left the school in the car (the official car of X2!  ) and none of the gung ho army guys with guns and helicopters notices or shoots at them or follows them.


----------



## WizarDru (May 5, 2003)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> *Actually he can fly. In the first film he flys towards the train he just ripped appart and then flys out of the head of the statue of liberty to the torch. *




Good point, although I'd amend that to: movie Magneto can't fly in the same manner as comic Magneto...he can levitate.  Remembering that comic Magneto can literally fly out of the stratsosphere to a base in low orbit, I think we can see that movie Magneto is a little lower in power (for very practical budgetary and story-telling reasons).




> _Originally posted by DonAdam_
> *As far as Magneto entering the base, I realize that he doesn't do electromagnetic fields like in the comics, but if he can escape from a super bad cell the way he did the thugs in there would have stood no chance.
> The water question is irrelevant: huge portions of that base were made out of metal.*




But we're not talking ball bearings, here, or free standing cars: we're talking about tons of metal interworked with concrete.  Going in by himself, Magneto would be flooded out and die.  If Mystique went in first, and then only Magneto followed, he had no idea how well prepared they were to deal with him.  Let's remember: Stryker built Magneto's prison.  It's not hard to believe he might have had a way to deal with him.  Cyclops would have been a pretty good defense, by himself.  Plastic guns with rubber bullets are not that hard to envsion, and again we return to the fact that Magneto is, in his heart, something of a coward.

I was glad to see something more of the charisma that makes him a leader, though, in his scenes with Pyro.  Mystique truly came into her own, this time out, which is good for RRS.

And dravot, DUDE, that was an RX-8!  Only a madman would shoot at a car that good. 

*Edit:*_Corrected very-stupid cutting and pasting error on the 'quote' statement.  Mea Culpa._


----------



## Bagpuss (May 5, 2003)

Hey I didn't originally say that second bit!


----------



## WizarDru (May 5, 2003)

Very sorry, I was cutting-and-pasting out of laziness, and didn't correct.  Those responsible have been sacked. 

It has been edited to be correct.  Mea maxima culpa.


----------



## jasper (May 5, 2003)

I can't wait for the director's cut (r rating anyone?)
My wife like where she hated the first one. I always like it when there is a good nod to the comics but don't worry if they hit all the spots. 
They got most of characters right but I can see that extra dialoge and scenes were need for a couple of places. But I was only expecting a warm over X1. 
Why would any one need to mention the brimstone effect? Does it add to the story? No. Is it needed? No. Why does teleporting have the smell anyway? 
Big flaw here is Storm summons how many tornadoes? How many people did SHE KILL on the ground. Opps hero don't kill.
I see Striker is still hiring from Hench A lot. A dozen quality henchmen for not 29.99 but $12.
Thanks for the reminder of Banshee daughter. 
For all of you complaining about the kids be replaced. Come on Kitty Pride was in how many scenes in the first movie. And how many real years vs movie time has pass for what is a minor character in the first movie. 
For all of you complaining about teenagers in adult characters roles. Hmm has n't Marvel redone the ages. I saw a Spiderman which did have 15 year old  Peter Parker.  Is Marvel doing this with some of their grandma and grandpa character, FF4, Hulk, Spidey? Come on there sticking with comic and writing a good POPCORN movie. 
After Jean Gray was jean, Phoniex, Dead, Jean again, And then a clone? Or am I thinking of Gwen Stacy/ peter parker clones?

Loved the line from mom about not being a mutant.
B  + .


----------



## WizarDru (May 5, 2003)

jasper said:
			
		

> *After Jean Gray was jean, Phoniex, Dead, Jean again, And then a clone? Or am I thinking of Gwen Stacy/ peter parker clones?*




Hoo-boy. 

In the comics, it ran a little like this:

Jean Grey joins X-men.   Falls for Scott, unknowning that Scott falls for her.  All four male X-men pine for her, Scott wins her love.  New X-men arrive, and Logan falls for her, HARD.  Triangle forms, but Scott wins again...after friction Logan and Scott become good friends and trusted teammates.

Now things get ugly.

Returning from a battle in space, the X-men are riding a space shuttle out of control, that is falling apart.  Jean uses her telekinesis to protect the others, while piloting the shuttle down herself, being exposed to lethal radiation, and expecting to be killed.  The shuttle crashes in Jamaica Bay, and everyone thinks that Jean has died...until a pheonix of fire erupts into the sky, and Jean reappears, alive.

Got that?  Good, cuz then things get ugly, and then uglier.

After a stint in the circus (_honest_) the X-men are kidnaped by Magneto, and left in a base beneath a volcano in Antarctica.  They escape, and are separated into two groups.  Jean Grey and the Beast escape and are rescued, while the rest (presumed dead) find themselves in the Savage Land.  Months pass, and the characters have a series of 'moonlighting' like near-misses.  During this time, a mysterious man named 'Jason Wyngarde' (really Mastermind) begins messing with Jean's mind using a series of illusions.  This is all a way to get Jean to join an organization of evil industrialist mutants called the Hellfire Club.  Jean becomes Dark Pheonix, and while half-insane with a need for power, destroys an entire solar system and inadvertantly kills billions of sentient beings.  After the Hellfire club are defeated, the Shi'ar empire (don't ask if you don't know) demands retribution.  The X-men fight a steadily losing battle to protect Jean, who allows herself to be killed to spare her friends from death on her behalf.

OK.  So far, so good.  Then Claremont mucked it up.

First comes Madelyn Pryor, a woman who appears to be Jean's exact twin.  Scott meets her while on sabbatical (following jean's death) and falls in love with her.  They eventually marry and have a baby.  Madelyn, however, is a clone of Jean produced by a fellow named Mr. Sinister.  No, really.  He's apparently trying to manipulate blood-lines to do...um, something.  It's never really made clear what his point is.

But don't worry, Jean isn't really dead.   Turns out it was an alien the whole time.  *No, Really.*  Hence, X-factor is born.  Scott drops Maddy like an old hat, and goes back to Jean.  Hilarity ensues.

It goes on, but I think you get the idea.  Eventually, Jean and Scott marry.  And in an alternate future, they have kids, who all seem doomed to come back into the past and muck about.  Oh, how convuluted it gets.


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 5, 2003)

Although I'll freely blame Claremont for a lot, there's more than enough blame to go around for the messy continuity of Jean Grey.

Claremont had never intended for Jean to die, after she became the Dark Phoenix. Claremont's plan was for Jean to lose her powers. Jim Shooter, editor of the X-Men, decided that wasn't enough, and that Jean had to die as punishment. Seems he was still caught in a black-and-white Golden Age moral paradigm, where good and evil are clear as day. (Okay, maybe he wasn't quite that bad; after all, Wolverine was a psycho killer back then.)

So Claremont simply moved forward. Scott married Madelyne, and they had a daughter, Rachel Summers. Rachel was one of the first (I think) super-heroes to be the teen-ager from the future, because Marvel can't seem to stand having children around (baby or teen-ager, no in-betweens). We see this also happen to Franklin Richards and other super-heroes (Trunks of DBZ, but he's not Marvel, and Cable, but he's an old geezer). All that was fine, though.

X-Factor then comes along, and they decide they want Jean Grey back. This eventually leads to screwing up Madelyne and Rachel, who were both alright characters, but essentially unnecessary with Jean around. I'm not sure who gets the blame for that one; I recall Louise Simonson was one of the earliest writers of X-Factor, but I don't know if she was the one who decided that Jean would return.

Like many ugly continuity glares in comics, this has to do with making a big change, to keep readers interested or try to attract new ones, and then later going back and trying to erase that big change.


----------



## Umbran (May 5, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *Marvel can't seem to stand having children around (baby or teen-ager, no in-betweens). We see this also happen to Franklin Richards and other super-heroes (Trunks of DBZ, but he's not Marvel, and Cable, but he's an old geezer). All that was fine, though.*




Well, that's partly because it is difficult to do well.  They have tried, though - anyone ever read Power Pack?

A baby is, effectively, an object to which characters are emotionally tied, and that's easy to deal with.  A teenager has mentation that the authors and readers can grasp easily and use and understand.  

Kids are a little different.  Aside from the fact that the life that superhero parents lead would be called child abuse by any sane court, there's the simple fact that there's a fine line from having a kid be too dumb to be interesting (or even survivable), and too smart to be plausible.  Walking that line is a pain in the neck, and it's just simpler to avoid it, and perhaps better to avoid it than to try it and repeatedly fail.


----------



## Aaron2 (May 5, 2003)

*No from me*

I liked the first movie but didn't really like this one. Sure, all the cameos and stuff was cool but I found it lacking in the plot hole and action department. Except the Wolverine V Deathstrike and the brief Cyclops V Marvel Girl, the rest of the action was little more than mutants slaughtering humans. The assault on the school was a prime example. The human strike force posed no threat to the mutants. Asside from some lame darts, they had no special anti-mutant equipment. No flash grenades, no gas, no nightvision. Nothing except lame facepaint. Once the kids were safe in the basement, Colussus and Wolverine could have easily dispatched them. It would have been worse if Storm and Marvel Girl were still around. Didn't Magneto tell them what mutants to expect? In short, there was no real sense of danger. It just showed a lack of creativity. 

Another, as yet unmentioned plot hole was that whole scout camp scene. The X-men just downed two F-16s. Were are the search and rescue, where are the FCC and special forces guys investigating the crash site? Nowhere. I agree with the previous assessment that the movie was alot of good scenes poorly connected together along with the most boring dam crash sequence ever. It had to have taken 45 minutes for that dam to break. So much for tension.


Aaron


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 5, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *Scott married Madelyne, and they had a daughter, Rachel Summers.*



Wait, isn't Rachel Jean's daughter and Cable Madelyn's?

Man, X-Men continuity is just the most confusing evah!

Oh and you all forgot the part where Madelyn goes all nuts and evil.


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 5, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *Wait, isn't Rachel Jean's daughter and Cable Madelyn's?
> 
> Man, X-Men continuity is just the most confusing evah!
> 
> Oh and you all forgot the part where Madelyn goes all nuts and evil. *




Whoops! Yup, Rachel is Jean's daughter.

Yeah, we left out the crazy part, but we also left out tons of other parts (like when Madelyne gains healing powers). When she went evil, she became the Goblyn Queen, and I think she hooked up with Scott's brother for a while...

[sarcasm] Anyway, as a comics fan, I'm shocked and insulted that the movie guys went and dropped years of continuity instead of telling the whole Phoenix thing exactly as it was in the comics. [/sarcasm]


----------



## Lichtenhart (May 5, 2003)

satori01 said:
			
		

> *The final evolutionary narration by the actress of Jean Grey seems to imply that she had some foreknowledge of what the transformation would require.  Grey also had many vague missgivings for future catosrophe all of which may not have applied directly to the circumstances at hand.  The Xavier "choice" speech might also imply that Xavier has some inkling as well of what she did. *




Also, how do you explain the scene in the end whe Professor X is stuck looking outside of the window? Can he feel the Phoenix arise?
And has anybody read 'The once and future king'? What's it about?


----------



## WizarDru (May 5, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *Wait, isn't Rachel Jean's daughter and Cable Madelyn's?
> 
> Man, X-Men continuity is just the most confusing evah!
> 
> Oh and you all forgot the part where Madelyn goes all nuts and evil. *




Oh, I didn't forget it.  TRIED TO, but didn't.  And don't forget Cable's clone and twin brother.  Unless you can, in which case you probably should.

Lest we forget, Rachel is Jean and Scott's daughter from an alternate future timeline.  Presumably, so is Cable, his many genetic relateds, and everybody else.

The really nice thing about adaptions like these is that they can dispense with years of poor continuity choices.  Chun-tzu is correct, Shooter made the call for Jean to die (and it's a complex issue...it was perhaps the greatest X-men story ever, and yet they killed a very popular character to do so...fixing it made a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation).  But Claremont is to blame for the whole poorly conceived Madelyn Pryor stories, as well as the Brood stories and the Australian desert wackiness.

But I won't lay the resurrection of Jean Grey or the poor fathering practices of Cyclops at his feet, either.


----------



## WizarDru (May 5, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> [BAnd has anybody read 'The once and future king'? What's it about? [/B]




Written by T.H. White, a series of 4 stories about some crazy cat name King Arthur...and something about a round table. 

The Sword in the Stone was one of the books, if that sounds familiar. A fifth book, the book of Merlyn, was found after he died amongst his notes.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 5, 2003)

It's a series of novels telling of the life of King Arthur.

The Disney movie 'The Sword in the Stone' is I think based on the first book in the series.

Since I haven't read it, the connection is lost on me.

EDIT: Damn! WizardDru beat me to it!


----------



## Henry (May 5, 2003)

*Re: No from me*



			
				Aaron2 said:
			
		

> ...the rest of the action was little more than mutants slaughtering humans. The assault on the school was a prime example. The human strike force posed no threat to the mutants. Asside from some lame darts, they had no special anti-mutant equipment. No flash grenades, no gas, no nightvision.




I think the HK MP5's and the concussion grenades they were packing counts as "anti-mutant equipment" to all except Wolverine and Colossus. Those guys came packing for bear if bear were brought.

As for Magneto briefing them, keep in mind that Magneto doesn't know about Charles' students, for the most part - only the X-Men. Of them, only Wolverine is resistant to conventional gunfire, and then it is still presumed he can still be killed if sufficient trauma is introduced.



> Another, as yet unmentioned plot hole was that whole scout camp scene. The X-men just downed two F-16s. Were are the search and rescue, where are the FCC and special forces guys investigating the crash site? Nowhere. I agree with the previous assessment that the movie was alot of good scenes poorly connected together along with the most boring dam crash sequence ever. It had to have taken 45 minutes for that dam to break. So much for tension.




I agree, the tension was lacking in that scene to me.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 5, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> And don't forget Cable's clone and twin brother.  Unless you can, in which case you probably should.*



I dunno. Kinda liked that one. Well, except for the ending, where 
the editors decided to throw away years of build-up and tie the 
final battle between the two into one of 'em big X-crossovers, 
which didn't even have much to do with the Cable/New Mutants
plots.

Very anticlimatic.

*



			Presumably, so is Cable, his many genetic relateds, and everybody else.
		
Click to expand...


*Not exactly. He was infected by that technovirus so Scott and 
Jean sent him into the future where the virus wouldn't kill him.
What they didn't know, this future was ruled by Apocalypse.

There he was raised by monks that trained him to fight Apocalypse. 
He went back in time to kill Apocalypse. He did that and created 
a new future, where we got a second Nate Grey. Then, with the 
megacrossover 'Age of Apocalypse'  we got a third version of Cable.

It's very understandable that the current teams on the X-books 
are pretty much ignoring the last decade of continuity.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 5, 2003)

The term/title "Once and Future King" is tied to the legend that King Arthur would return from his grave in Avalon to defend England in a time of dire need. He didn't show up during the second world war, so its probably more of a myth than a legend, but the parallel's with a Jean Grey returning from the dead are pretty clear.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 5, 2003)

Oooooh! Camelot 3000 style!


----------



## Mathew_Freeman (May 5, 2003)

It's funny, but I thought that having the dam break slowly actually added to the tension, not took away from it. With that hanging over the heads of everyone, it leant a more dangerous air to the end of the film, without necessarily meaning that everyone had to run around like madmen.

Having something extremely dangerous happen slowly was far more fun than having it happen quickly, IMHO.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 5, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *It's very understandable that the current teams on the X-books are pretty much ignoring the last decade of continuity. *



Probably a good thing, I did too, having actually dropped the book around the Age of Apocalypse and not picking it up again until eX-Treme X-Men #1.

The thing that I loved about the first movie was how well they were able to quickly define each of the characters, given that they had to composite around 500+ comics down to a 2-hour film.   I even thought they exceeded the comics in two areas: the portrayal of the Toad, and the portrayal of he school as a learning institution with tons of unique kids.  

Same for the second film, establishing Pyro, Nightcrawler and Stryker as fully developed characters.   I know there has been a lot of nitpicking in this thread about specific points, but the big picture was that it was a fun film for both comic fans and those not familiar with the comic as well.


----------



## Aaron2 (May 6, 2003)

Tallarn said:
			
		

> *It's funny, but I thought that having the dam break slowly actually added to the tension, not took away from it. With that hanging over the heads of everyone, it leant a more dangerous air to the end of the film, without necessarily meaning that everyone had to run around like madmen.
> 
> Having something extremely dangerous happen slowly was far more fun than having it happen quickly, IMHO. *




It wasn't happening slowly, it was happening in little spurts. When the leaks first started, they quickly stopped spreading. There was little to indicate that the dam would actually break. Of course, everone in the audience knows it will break because, otherwise, why set the scene at a dam? What bothered me was that they would have all sorts of inside scenes then, suddenly, the dam would leak more. Back to inside scenes etc.

The whole dam breaking sequence seemed contrived to set-up the Jean dies scene. As I said before. Lots of good scenes poorly connected together.

Aaron


----------



## TiQuinn (May 6, 2003)

*Don't want to sidetrack too much....*

...but what's going on in the X-Men comic book nowadays?  Last time I read any of them, the whole gang was dealing with a virus that killed mutants, and IIRC, Colossus sacrificed himself in helping find a cure.  That was a couple of years ago.  Have things gotten better or worse?


----------



## KenM (May 6, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *Oooooh! Camelot 3000 style! *




  Cool reference. As for the f-16 being downed, the Xjet was ALOT faster. I assumed they were far enough away from the jets. I have to see it agian to see how long between the jets go down and the xjet almost crashes.


----------



## WizarDru (May 6, 2003)

*Re: Don't want to sidetrack too much....*



			
				TiQuinn said:
			
		

> *...but what's going on in the X-Men comic book nowadays?  Last time I read any of them, the whole gang was dealing with a virus that killed mutants, and IIRC, Colossus sacrificed himself in helping find a cure.  That was a couple of years ago.  Have things gotten better or worse? *




About a year-and-a-half ago, Marvel started hiring some quality writers, and proceeded to assign TOO MANY OF THEM to the X-men.  Grant Morrison started taking them in some interesting directions, while Joe Casey, IMHO, did not.  Many of the X-titles didn't really jibe creatively, and while parts were good, most of it seemed a mess.

The main metaplot is that the X-men have become serious about the future, actually turning the school into something like what you see out of the movie, with hundreds of students.  Professor X, under control by his....ummm....well, the malevolent life-force of his unborn twin sister who he killed in the womb, outs himself to the world on live television, and thus outs the X-men.  They form an international organization, and begin recruiting all over the world.  Oh, Genosha was wiped out by sentinels, killing virtually everyone there.  Things started getting a little too weird for me, and with a tight budget, they dropped off my limited list of picks.

The X-titles became more mature, but I'm not sure I was actually ENJOYING them, any longer.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 6, 2003)

Personally I'm enjoying the X-Men for the first time since Claremont.

That said, the whole thing is very uneven.

.

*New X-Men* is a sci-fi title starring the X-Men written by Grant Morrison. 
IMO: Very good.

*Uncanny X-Men* is the classic style X-Men. Currently written by Chuck Austen (haven't heard of him? Not surprising). 
IMO: Mediocre.

*Wolverine* is being written by Greg Rucka. 
IMO: Dunno, hasn't come out yet.

*X-Statix* is about a celebrity team of mutants. Not fighting evil, but for ratings. 
IMO: Uneven. Overall good.

*eXiles* is a a story about a band of mutants from different realities sliding from world to world mending broken timelines. Written by Judd Winnick. 
IMO: Quite good, very humourus.

*Xtreme X-Men* is written by Claremont himself. More Super-hero oriented than the rest. 
IMO: I like the stories told, but Claremont's storytelling style has never jived with me. Mediocre.

*Weapon-X* is about the Weapon-X program. Written by Frank Tieri.
IMO: Haven't read it.

*Soldier X* is basically Cable with a new name. Fighting for a better future than the one he was raised in. Written by Karl Bollers. 
IMO: Mediocre.

*Ultimate X-Men* takes place in the Ultimate Universe. Marvel's rebooted universe. Starting the series and mythos from scratch. Written by Mark Millar.
IMO: Very up and down. Some arcs are fairly mediocre, while others are pure brialliance on toast!


----------



## jasper (May 6, 2003)

Aaron so it 45 minutes for the dam to break. How many issues would have been printed covering the same story line. Hmm eighties xmen could get at least 6 if not a whole year of issues out of the movie. 

i agree with others there are some many plots good/bad/ etc and different titles of xmen that you don't worry about all the scars and flower child times of Wolfie life. Just pick a good defining part and slap on the movie character.  

Xmen is comic book. the movie was comic book that was not as cheesy as some other comic book movies. Capt American, Punisher anyone?


----------



## KidCthulhu (May 6, 2003)

Hey guys.  I loved the movie, and had only two thoughts.

1) Why the hell did Logan leave all the kids behind and run off in his (product placement here) car?  I know he loves to steal Scott's vehicles, but isn't this just a little irresponsible?  He doesn't even mention looking for them.

2) Call me a geek.  But when Magneto is pulling all his wonderful stunts during the escape, I had this flash of Gandalf vs. Magneto.

Gandalf:  (getting all wrothful) You shall not pass! (Slams down staff)

Magneto: (reaches out, yoinks all the swords, axes and arrowheads from Gandalf's companions, and flings them into the old guy's body.  Looks at twitching Gandalf and rolls his eyes).  Idiot.  (giggles).

It beats talking to moths.


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 6, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *1) Why the hell did Logan leave all the kids behind and run off in his (product placement here) car?  I know he loves to steal Scott's vehicles, but isn't this just a little irresponsible?  He doesn't even mention looking for them.*




That's a fair question. Was it irresponsible? Sure, but he's never claimed to be especially responsible, and they're not his responsibility. He wasn't all that interested in babysitting Iceman, Rogue, or Pyro either. He left the kids in Colossus' care.

Maybe he tried looking for them, but would have had to go through the remaining soldiers to get to them.

But finding Storm and Jean was a good move. They needed to be told what had happened, and they're powerful allies.


----------



## Hand of Evil (May 6, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *Hey guys.  I loved the movie, and had only two thoughts.
> 
> 1) Why the hell did Logan leave all the kids behind and run off in his (product placement here) car?  I know he loves to steal Scott's vehicles, but isn't this just a little irresponsible?  He doesn't even mention looking for them.
> 
> *




It was not needed, showing the kids get out and in the hands of someone else was all they needed.  Sure they could have shown Logon leading them all to a safe house but it would not added anything but time to the movie (okay maybe some fighting).  The kids were extras and bystanders, when done with them exit stage left.


----------



## Umbran (May 6, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *1) Why the hell did Logan leave all the kids behind and run off in his (product placement here) car?  I know he loves to steal Scott's vehicles, but isn't this just a little irresponsible?  He doesn't even mention looking for them.*




Well, Logan did see them leaving with Colossus, and even told colossus to look after them.  remember the exchange?

Colossus: "I can help you!"
Logan: "Help _them_! ('cause though you're a real cool character, and I'll need you to toss me around in X3, the cgi required to keep you on screen for any length of time becomes horrifically expensive, you steel skinned freak!)"

Okay, he didn't say that last bit, but he could have


----------



## KidCthulhu (May 6, 2003)

Actually, I think the exchange went more like this.

"Take the kids and go.  You're awfully buff for a teenager, and I want all the drool time on this film.  I'm gonna get smoochies with Famke Janssen and Rebecca Romajin and I don't want you cutting in on my action."


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 6, 2003)

It'll be on the DVD.


----------



## Ferret (May 6, 2003)

DonAdam said:
			
		

> *I give it a 2/5.
> 
> There was nothing at all mediocre about the movie. Everything was great or utterly stupid.
> 
> ...



He isn't acting, he just sees it, I think he does amazingly not to "do something childish", if he thinks he won't make all of the ports



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *
> 2) Magneto giggling like a school girl at Rogue on the plane.
> *



He's teasing her, I almost thought it was him; best explaned. he gets to insult her, quite badly, and get away with it.



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *
> 3) The whole break-in to the base. They had Magneto with them, and then they launch this complicated plan to attack a base mostly made out of metal.
> *



The post about only wolverine could get in, explains it, plus the one about him being hypocritcial coward.



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *
> 5) For that matter, why didn't Magneto and Mystique just steal the jet and go themselves? They didn't need any help, and bringing the others along is just asking to get thwarted.
> *



And fight 2 vs 8? I doubt he would have, plus the free ride without lifting a finger would have seemed nice 



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *
> 7) The worst scene of the movie was the Jean Grey death scene. When your climax is the worst scene, it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. If Jean can flip all those switches from outside the ship, there was no reason she couldn't have stopped the water from outside the ship.
> Catch Cyclopes line "The endines fine, we need some kind of external force."
> *






			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *
> 9) At the beginning of the movie, and on the plane, Nightcrawler had no problem teleporting where he couldn't see (too accurately for my taste, actually). At the end, he was scared he would run into something when he was about to teleport through a door. Last time I checked, most people don't build walls on the other sides of doors.
> *



He used faith, he is a devout christian, thus the prayers. To explain the 700mph stuff, wouldn't rogue be falling at the same speed, or near to that?



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *
> 11) Wolverine could smell who Mystique was in the last movie. Why not this one?
> *



Mixed pheramones I would expect.



			
				DonAdam said:
			
		

> *
> 12) In the plane chase scene Magneto sealed up the blackbird. When they were flying back to Washington, the hole came back. I thought that was an appropriate analogy for the whole movie.
> *



Jean patched it up, but crashed the plane. When did it come back?

Could we compile all the cameos? I missed jubilee, and the wings of archangel!


----------



## Numion (May 6, 2003)

Yeah! And why didn't T-800 throw the frozen T-1000 into the melting pool, rather than shooting it to pieces so it just melted faster! Boo!

Ahem, just saw X2. I was thrilled. The sprawling story didn't bother me one bit, and as I'm not very aware of the comicbooks I had few issues with the characters. 

I just don't see much point in picking nits about what mutant really should've / could've done what. Wasn't one of the points of X-men that they are also quite humane and make mistakes? And forget the comics .. I once read a bit of Wolverine where he got shot in the face with a shotgun, and wasn't much bothered by it. Then he just fought of with no flesh in his face like it's no big thing. Really retarded...


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 6, 2003)

>3) The whole break-in to the base. They had Magneto with them, and then they launch this complicated plan to attack a base mostly made out of metal.<

I had the same thought the first time I saw it, and still largely agree with this idea. However, perhaps the reason they needed the X-Men was not so much to get into the base, but because they needed to do something about the soldiers? Remember that Magneto was completely preoccupied while "fixing" Cerebro, and that if the two of them were alone, Mystique would have been the only one who could have held off Stryker, Deathstrike, and the soldiers. Even if they had managed to take out most of them, they had no real way of knowing if they got all the soldiers before they attempted the reprogramming, and time was of the essence.

>5) For that matter, why didn't Magneto and Mystique just steal the jet and go themselves? They didn't need any help, and bringing the others along is just asking to get thwarted.<

Again, see above. Seems like the most logical reason to me, the more I think about it.

>9) At the beginning of the movie, and on the plane, Nightcrawler had no problem teleporting where he couldn't see (too accurately for my taste, actually). At the end, he was scared he would run into something when he was about to teleport through a door. Last time I checked, most people don't build walls on the other sides of doors.<

As for the White House, Stryker could very well have supplied him with a (mental or physical) map of the place, so that he knew where he was going, not to mention that he didn't have all that many qualms about what he was doing in his programmed state. As far as the plane... I agree with you...

>11) Wolverine could smell who Mystique was in the last movie. Why not this one?<

I don't think it was so much that he smelled her specifically, just that he smelled someone *in addition to* the other X-Men at liberty island.

Now why he wouldn't remember her scent... I had the same thought, actually.


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 6, 2003)

>Plus, the way he asked Pyro "What's your real name?" was a wonderful moment.<

I agree, one of my favorite moments, and one that I haven't seen anyone else mention before now. Very reminiscent of the whole "slave name", "Nation of Islam", "Malcolm X" sort of thing. Loved it.


----------



## Bagpuss (May 6, 2003)

Viking Bastard where does the *Essential X-Men* fit in?


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 6, 2003)

Reprints of old/classic X-Men stories.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 6, 2003)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> *Actually, I think the exchange went more like this.
> "Take the kids and go.  You're awfully buff for a teenager, and I want all the drool time on this film.  I'm gonna get smoochies with Famke Janssen and Rebecca Romajin and I don't want you cutting in on my action." *




Great alternative dialogue KC!  

In hindsight, the movie did seem to have quite a bit of eye candy for both genders.  I did find the scene where Magneto is talking to the X-Men, and about half the shot is taken up by Mystique's almost bare chest, to be rather distracting.  I'm sure Magneto must have had some dialogue during that bit but I honestly can't remember a word of it.


----------



## WayneLigon (May 7, 2003)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> *Now why he wouldn't remember her scent... I had the same thought, actually. *




I doubt she has the same scent from change to change -or- after knowing that's what gave her away before, she just made sure to duplicate the scent, something she probably doesn't bother with most of the time since very few things could pick up on it. 

And, well, Wolvie wasn't really thinking with that head, right then.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 7, 2003)

I thought the movie rocked on toast.  So much so that I'm not completely confident that Reloaded will be able to top it.  I consider it a qunatum leap over the first film, which was itself pretty decent.

Yes, it has some contrivances.  I find it difficult to beleive that people actually go into movies looking for that kind of stuff.  I go to be entertained, and I was - immensely.  Geekgasm!

The one thing I think should have played out differently was Wolverine's getting shot in the head - the bullet should have ricocheted off his skull.  He might well have been knocked cold, though.

My favorite scene is probably Magneto's escape.  That just rocked.

And his pulling the pins on all the grenades.  After the explosion they all fall to the ground at his feet.

And Wolvie's going berserk in the mansion.  Finally.

Lots of little touches, too - in the Oval Office scene late in the movie, Rogue and Iceman are wearing X-Men uniforms.  Among many others - the mutant list, Project Wideawake, etc.

Plus the Phoenix subplot, which there's no way someone unfamiliar with the comics would catch.

I second the request to pull together all the cameos, by the way.  I caught Gambit, Colossus (!), Kitty and what I think was Jubilee.  And, of course, Mastermind.


----------



## Umbran (May 7, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *Plus the Phoenix subplot, which there's no way someone unfamiliar with the comics would catch.*




Insofar as they won't kow what's going to happen, sure.  However, in the credits of the film, there's a big section labelled "Phoenix Effects".  Anyone who watches the credits can put two and two together...


----------



## EricNoah (May 7, 2003)

Enjoyed it immensely!  Good stuff.


----------



## Datt (May 7, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *IThe one thing I think should have played out differently was Wolverine's getting shot in the head - the bullet should have ricocheted off his skull.  He might well have been knocked cold, though.
> *




I was waiting for someone to mention that.  It didn't sit right with me either. I mean his skull is lined with adamantium.  There is no way a bullet from what looked like a 9mm or a .45 would penetrate that.  And if it did just go into his skin and hit his skull, his regeneration wouldn't have spit it out.  It would have just healed over it leaving a nice little bump with a bullet inside.


----------



## Umbran (May 7, 2003)

Datt said:
			
		

> *And if it did just go into his skin and hit his skull, his regeneration wouldn't have spit it out.  It would have just healed over it leaving a nice little bump with a bullet inside. *




You forget the simple maxim that scientific plausibility takes a distant backseat to coolness in movies and comic books.  Doubly so for movies based on comic books. 

Honestly, the guy is breaking physical laws six ways from Sunday, and you're gonna quibble on exactly how his regeneration would or would not perform?


----------



## Ristamar (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WizarDru _*
> They eventually marry and have a baby. Madelyn, however, is a clone of Jean produced by a fellow named Mr. Sinister. No, really. He's apparently trying to manipulate blood-lines to do...um, something. It's never really made clear what his point is.*





If I recall correctly, Nathaniel Essex, a.k.a. Mr. Sinister, was "created" by Apocalypse and is, in a loose sense of the term, under servitude to Apocalypse's designs of ruling over all mutants, as the weak (both human and mutant) fall to the strong after "armageddon".  Sinister, like Apocalypse, is very educated in the field of genetics and evolution.  Sinister discovered that if Scott and Jean were to ever have a child, the offspring would be a mutant of incredible power, even capable of defeating Apocalypse himself.

As for the movie.... while it was certainly flawed, I liked it.  It's useless to compare the comics to the movies at this point, as they're obviously taking quite a few liberties across the board, but I enjoyed it, nonetheless.  Definitely far more entertaining than the first one.


----------



## Assenpfeffer (May 7, 2003)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, Nathaniel Essex, a.k.a. Mr. Sinister, was "created" by Apocalypse and is, in a loose sense of the term, under servitude to Apocalypse's designs of ruling over all mutants, as the weak (both human and mutant) fall to the strong after "armageddon".  Sinister, like Apocalypse, is very educated in the field of genetics and evolution.  Sinister discovered that if Scott and Jean were to ever have a child, the offspring would be a mutant of incredible power, even capable of defeating Apocalypse himself.[/B]




Well, then, the only thing not explained about Cable seems to be why he's so _lame_.

Still... Rob Leifeld.  What can you expect?


----------



## Cthulhudrew (May 7, 2003)

> Well, then, the only thing not explained about Cable seems to be why he's so lame.
> 
> Still... Rob Leifeld. What can you expect?




In all fairness, the whole "Nathan Summers" aspect of Cable didn't come into play until long after Liefeld had stopped writing X-Force/being a part of Marvel/split for Image.

But Cable was always pretty darned lame, from day one.


----------



## Welverin (May 7, 2003)

Assenpfeffer said:
			
		

> *
> Still... Rob Leifeld.  What can you expect?   *




Crap


----------



## Numion (May 7, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Insofar as they won't kow what's going to happen, sure.  However, in the credits of the film, there's a big section labelled "Phoenix Effects".  Anyone who watches the credits can put two and two together... *




Weeell.. I don't think so. If you haven't read the comics, like I, it would be pretty hard to know. I didn't know about any phoenixis before I read this thread. And as some have pointed out there was something on the water in the last scene. I noticed it too, but I was just like "whats that supposed to be". I didn't see know sign. .


The phoenix effects could refer to anything.


----------



## Skade (May 7, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *Oh, I didn't forget it.  TRIED TO, but didn't.  And don't forget Cable's clone and twin brother.  Unless you can, in which case you probably should.
> 
> Lest we forget, Rachel is Jean and Scott's daughter from an alternate future timeline.  Presumably, so is Cable, his many genetic relateds, and everybody else.
> *




Wasn't the name of Cables clone/brother Stryker?  Making that character the mold for Brian Cox's character in the movie?

As to my opinion, I loved every minute of it.  I was seeing the Phoenix arc from the beginning, and having been drawn into the X-Men by the original story arc I was so psyched.  It began even in the museum, with the dreams, and the sudden amplitude of her powers in her sleeping mind.  There was the electronics, the brief little flash in her eyes twice I think, and o course the ending sequence.  As to Cyclopses reaction, it was fine.  Having been portrayed as stoic and unmoving, breaking down as much as he did was showing the severity of its effect on him.  

I loved it.  Matrix Reloaded is gonna really have to work hard now.


----------



## Lichtenhart (May 7, 2003)

Skade said:
			
		

> *Wasn't the name of Cables clone/brother Stryker?  Making that character the mold for Brian Cox's character in the movie?*





I think the name was Stryfe. And about Cable's birth and he being lame, there's something more to say. In this earth and many other alternatives, Sinister thank to genetics tried to create a human able to beat Apocalypse. This earth's attempt was Cable, but when Apocalypse discovered about it, he infected him with a a tecnovirus that ate away his living flesh replacing it with organic metal. Through all his life Cable had to devolve a huge part of his powers trying to keep the virus from killing him, or worse, should it ever reached his brain. Nate Grey, who was an alternate Earth Cable had no such problem, and was easily the most powerful mutant on Earth, maybe second only to Franklin Richards.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 7, 2003)

According to the script writer (wasshisname? Hayter?) the movie 
originally had two plots: Of the religious zealot Stryker from 
Claremont's "God Loves, Man Kills" and his plan to use Xavier and 
Cerebro to destroy all mutantkind and of the Sentinel program 
and some crazy general that was behind that (as well as the 
whole weapon X program). Somehow, these two stories 
interconnected as the two villains joined forces (with the general 
becoming Stryker's main henchman most likely) and the joined 
forces of the X-Men and the Brotherhood had to battle them to 
save the universe (yadda yadda yadda).

But this story simply became 'too big', 'too long', 'too expensive' 
and 'too complicated' and the whole sentinel plot got cut out and 
the two villains got merged into one. Brian Cox's Stryker character.

This is something I remember from a interview from before the 
movie went into full production so I don't know how much of that 
script still lives in the finished movie.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 7, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> I think the name was Stryfe. And about Cable's birth and he being lame, there's something more to say. In this earth and many other alternatives, Sinister thank to genetics tried to create a human able to beat Apocalypse. This earth's attempt was Cable, but when Apocalypse discovered about it, he infected him with a a tecnovirus that ate away his living flesh replacing it with organic metal. Through all his life Cable had to devolve a huge part of his powers trying to keep the virus from killing him, or worse, should it ever reached his brain. Nate Grey, who was an alternate Earth Cable had no such problem, and was easily the most powerful mutant on Earth, maybe second only to Franklin Richards. *



In the current Cable series (Soldier X), Nathan has purged his body of the virus and has since been able to affect the very fabric of reality.

Still a bloody awful comic.


----------



## Lichtenhart (May 7, 2003)

I think it depends on what you're looking for in a comic. I'm liking it so far.


----------



## Skade (May 7, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *
> I think the name was Stryfe.*




Yep.  That's right.  There was a one shot Stryfe's Strike Files that was basically a rundown of the primary mutants in the X-Men and how to deal with them.  Wizard did something similar in its X2 issue called Stryker's Files.  That's where my brain went wonky.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 7, 2003)

Viking Bastard said:
			
		

> *...the religious zealot Stryker from Claremont's "God Loves, Man Kills" *



Thank you.  It's been bugging me ever since I saw the movie last Friday as to who Stryker was.  I remebered the name, and thought it was associated with X-Men, but could not place it.  I just checked the Graphic Novel, and the spelling is even the same.

BTW, anyone not familiar with this X-Men Graphic Novel should stop by a comic store to pick up a copy, it's one of the best X-Men stories ever written and Brent Anderson's art is also quite good*.






*But nowhere near the level of his current work on Astro City, which is another comic that I would highly suggest.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 8, 2003)

There's a sequal coming out in the pages of X-Treme X-Men with 
the ultra inventive title "God Loves, Man Kills II".

Again, written by Claremont.


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 8, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *I think it depends on what you're looking for in a comic. I'm liking it so far. *



Of course, as always. It's not that I have anything against the 
book existing as such y'know. I just don't like it.

Since The Authority, too many books are now jumping onto the 
whole 'proactive-superhero' bandwagon and I must give Cable
/ Soldier X credit for actually being proactive in some ways (most 
books throw it around to sound important but are only standard 
superhero fare). 

That said, I seriously dislike the writing.


----------



## Someone (May 8, 2003)

I was thinking on one thing when the film ended;

-What happens to Nightcrawler when he teleports to an unseen location?

[Probable answer] -He´s likely to materialize into a wall and die

-How does he know?


----------



## Viking Bastard (May 8, 2003)

Maybe it's just a phobia of his.

Maybe he used to teleport like crazy as a child then someone told 
him watch out or he'd become one with a wall.

Since then, he wets his bed every night.


----------



## Ferret (May 8, 2003)

Ever run into a wall? No, you know it will hurt, don't you?

I think nightcrawler was the best character/best portrayed, in the bunch.

The smallest amount needed to portray a character: Collosus.

Maddest attack scene(not a real fight): Toss up between Mystiques entrance, and magnetos.


----------



## Victim (May 8, 2003)

Someone said:
			
		

> *I was thinking on one thing when the film ended;
> 
> -What happens to Nightcrawler when he teleports to an unseen location?
> 
> ...




Well, I wouldn't really want to teleport into a solid object to see what happens.  Would you want to risk it?


----------



## Isida Kep'Tukari (May 9, 2003)

Re:  Nightcrawler knowing not to teleport into a wall.

Maybe he once did it to very lesser extent, like accidentally getting part of a finger or toe in the wall.  That part is no longer there, and hence he'd prefer not to experiment further.  It seems that from the movie, the comics, and from the cartoon that young mutants have to do a lot of experimenting to get their powers under control.  Some obviously lock it down better than others (Bobby seems to have good control, as does Pyro, even though he went a little psycho.  Rogue seems to have better control of when to let go and how to use someone else's power, though she can't "turn off.")


----------



## mooby (May 9, 2003)

The movie was so much better than the first one, and I liked that one as well.

My only complaints are the accents.  Namely, the boston police didn't sound like they were from _Bastin,_ and Colossus didn't sounds like a russkie.  

Overall, a spectacular movie.

Iceman has always been my favoite X-Man, and i hope he ices up one day, and gets his sled on!


----------



## Umbran (May 9, 2003)

mooby said:
			
		

> *My only complaints are the accents.  Namely, the boston police didn't sound like they were from Bastin, *




That's okay, because, contrary to popular belief, very few Bostonians have the Boston accent.


----------



## krunchyfrogg (May 10, 2003)

I'm from NY (A Mets fan), and I drove up to Fenway to see a Mets-Red Sox game a few years ago, and there were some accents going on there!

I didn't really notice it, though, in the movie.  I did have a problem with Colossus not having a thick russian accent though.

I loved this awesome movie.  5/5.  I'm going to make my fianceé watch the first one so I can take her with me to see X2 now! 

I only hope Hulk can live up to X2.

I missed the Archangel wing X-Ray, I'll have to look for it next time.  Hopefully he'll be in the next movie.  And I want more Beast!  _Hairy_ Beast!


----------



## Tom Cashel (May 11, 2003)

I loved this movie!!  Much better than the first, partly because there was no need to deal with the "origin" issue.

And here's another tidbit that I seem to be the first to note here (and it makes a nice corollary to WizarDru's explication of the Phoenix Saga):

When Stryker puts his report on the President's desk at the beginning of the film, he's wearing a signet ring with the symbol of the *Hellfire Club* plainly engraved on it.


----------



## fba827 (May 11, 2003)

Tom Cashel said:
			
		

> *
> When Stryker puts his report on the President's desk at the beginning of the film, he's wearing a signet ring with the symbol of the Hellfire Club plainly engraved on it. *




I admit I am largely uninformed on some matters.. but, I have to ask.  What is the Hellfire Club?

(Obviously, given the context, has some relation to the Pheonix Saga).


----------



## Umbran (May 11, 2003)

fba827 said:
			
		

> *I admit I am largely uninformed on some matters.. but, I have to ask.  What is the Hellfire Club?
> *




The Hellfire Club is a group of powerful superhumans (usuallymutants, but not always) who do a lot of "Behind the scenes" manipulation of people, economics, and politics.  

They do relate to the Phoenix saga, but their role in the movie _cannot_ quite be what it was in the comic.  In the comic at the time, Jason Wyngard (Mastermind - Stryker's son in the movie) was the "Black King" of the Hellfire Club (the top members are named after chess pieces).  Mastermind drove Phoenix insane to become Dark Phoenix.


----------



## Staffan (May 11, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *They do relate to the Phoenix saga, but their role in the movie cannot quite be what it was in the comic.  In the comic at the time, Jason Wyngard (Mastermind - Stryker's son in the movie) was the "Black King" of the Hellfire Club (the top members are named after chess pieces).  Mastermind drove Phoenix insane to become Dark Phoenix. *



Rook or Bishop, IIRC. Black King is Sebastian Shaw, who was debating with Hank McCoy in the movie.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 11, 2003)

Staffan said:
			
		

> *...Black King is Sebastian Shaw, who was debating with Hank McCoy in the movie. *



  Wasn't it fantastic how they tossed in all of those small bits for the fans in such a way that those not familiar with the X-Men didn't feel that they missed anything!  (This morning my wife was talking on the phone to a friend of hers who saw the film last night and loved it.  My wife mentions that I have most of the comic books, and the friend replies "It was a comic book?")


----------



## reapersaurus (May 12, 2003)

I finally saw X2 with my wife this weekend, and we both loved it.

WizarDru: I give you props for being a knowledgable poster on Movie and xcomic book threads. Good job here.


> posted by WizarDru:
> But Claremont is to blame for the whole poorly conceived Madelyn Pryor stories, as well as the Brood stories and the Australian desert wackiness.



But what the heck was wrong with the (original) Brood story? I thought it was a highlight of the Xmen comic book post-issue-#144.
Any story that shows Wolverine's tolerance for pain that well, and also spiritual pain, as in Wolvie (and all the X-men) knowing he's going to live, whereas they are all doomed to die and become hosts to monsters....
Kurt's silent strength of spirituality in that scene where he prays the rosary in the observation deck is a highpoint in comicdom, to me.

Now, about the movie - I'm VERY pleased they kept Kurt/Nightcrawler's Catholic spirituality intact. Too bad they couldn't keep Storm/Ororo's Kenyan Sky-Goddess background intact, to have some nice theological fun.

Her discussion with Kurt about anger DID make me wonder if they're gonna introduce Storm's foray into punk violence, tho.

Maybe I just guessed right for once (I usually don't see hidden/foreshadowing things unless they're clearly shown on screen), but when Jean had problems in the mall and the electronic gear went haywire, I IMMEDIATELY turned to my wife and said, ecstatically and incredulously, "They're going to do Dark Pheonix!" 
Really, the lights in the eyes was a dead give-away, I for once noticed.

As for Nightcrawler 'porting from the plane to catch Rogue falling at 700 miles an hour - yeah, it was a mistake - I assume they just didn't show him having to do multiple 'ports to accomplish the maneuver, as he of course would have had to. It makes for cleaner filmmaking that way for the uninitiated viewer, and is probablt best in the long run.
Us fanboys know how it probably would have happened - don't be stuck to what they happen to show onscreen - if you know about the characters and powers, just rationalize what they didn't show in your mind, and be happier than crap that they're including any of it.

I DID have a problem with Magneto being petty with Rogue on the plane - it just didn't seem in character to me. Lucky for him, Wolvie wasn't on the plane at the time, or there WOULD have been a fight (was Wolvie there?). 

Magneto wouldn't go into a stone fortress with only his powers to protect him. The gear was metal, but it was all rock around... too easy to get stuck.
I don't think Deathstrike could slash thru the door, Magneto's powers are much reduced onscreen from the books (thank GOD!), Wolvie wouldn't have bothered scenting Jean then, Rogue would NOT have had a problem getting the damned seatbelt to work (unlimited technology in the universe, and we can't get a seatbelt to click?), I'm not sure about Nightcrawler having difficulty porting thru the door into Cerebro2-room, blah blah blah.

I'm VERY pleased they explained why Nightcrawler acted so out-of-character in the first White-House scene: unless he was mind-controlled, Kurt would never have done something so rash, polarizing, or acted like a monster, baring teeth - he hated that people saw him as a monster - he'd NEVER do something to contribute to that bigoted view.

Jean Grey going outside to rescue her friends was PURE storytelling manipulation, and I don't know why you'd expect anything different.
Was the comic book scene, where they invented a solar storm and had Jean as the only X-Man who could pilot the ship, and everyone else had to hide in the back pods that somehow were safe... was that any less ham-handed and unbelievable?

I don't think a scene like that is very possible to be written well... it's just too convoluted and difficult to manufacture - to me, the movie did it satisfactory enough for me.

I could chat more, but this is too much as it is...


----------



## WizarDru (May 12, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *WizarDru: I give you props for being a knowledgable poster on Movie and xcomic book threads. Good job here.
> But what the heck was wrong with the (original) Brood story? I thought it was a highlight of the Xmen comic book post-issue-#144.*




Much Obliged.  Mayhaps I protest too much.  It really is a good story arc, overall, but it has some of the first inklings of Claremont repeating himself (both conceptually and thematically) and lots of good moments.  But the Brood themselves went from non-existant to dramatically overexposed around that time, between the X-men and other titles, like Rom.  I have a problem with them because Claremont felt the need to drop in a new race that was a mixture of the Skrulls and the xenomorphs from Alien, after already having done an alien rip-off with Kitty some issues before (and don't get me wrong, I like that issue).  My biggest complaint about the brood storyline is that it goes on TOO LONG.

Compared to the mess of the title that later writers would make, it's not really much to complain about.  Claremont's greatest sin, in my eyes, was unresolved plot threads.  His second greatest sin was repetition.  But compared to the (IMHO, obviously) gross mishandling of the characters under writers like Scott Lobdell and Fabian Niceiza, I'd take Claremont back in a heartbeat.

The problem, of course, is that the X-men are victims of their own popularity.  Marvel has expanded and complicated the franchise so much, that casual readers can't jump on...there's too much material.  Even Ultimate X-men is starting to feel it's own collective weight, as more and more of the primary continuity is slogged on.  

*



			Now, about the movie - I'm VERY pleased they kept Kurt/Nightcrawler's Catholic spirituality intact. Too bad they couldn't keep Storm/Ororo's Kenyan Sky-Goddess background intact, to have some nice theological fun.
		
Click to expand...


*
Agreed on both points.  Kurt, as my favorite character, is both the spiritual center of the X-men and, again IMHO, it's most HUMAN.  His compassion was always an important part of the team, and he always struck me as one of the few who truly grasped Xavier's dream.



> * I IMMEDIATELY turned to my wife and said, ecstatically and incredulously, "They're going to do Dark Pheonix!"
> Really, the lights in the eyes was a dead give-away, I for once noticed.*





When the movie was over, Scorch, who had gone with me, punched me in the arm and yelled, "Dark Phoenix!  Did you see that?! I TOLD YOU!  #*$&(# Dark Phoenix, man!"  I took my lumps with pride. 



> *Jean Grey going outside to rescue her friends was PURE storytelling manipulation, and I don't know why you'd expect anything different.
> Was the comic book scene, where they invented a solar storm and had Jean as the only X-Man who could pilot the ship, and everyone else had to hide in the back pods that somehow were safe... was that any less ham-handed and unbelievable? *




Heh.  I can't add a single thing to that, and wouldn't try.


----------



## reapersaurus (May 12, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> But the Brood themselves went from non-existant to dramatically overexposed around that time, between the X-men and other titles, like Rom.  I have a problem with them because Claremont felt the need to drop in a new race that was a mixture of the Skrulls and the xenomorphs from Alien, after already having done an alien rip-off with Kitty some issues before (and don't get me wrong, I like that issue).
> 
> Claremont's greatest sin, in my eyes, was unresolved plot threads.[/B]



Using ROM as a reason to dislike a creation of Claremont's is... well, saying that's specious reasoning is being generous.  LOL

I guess Claremont likes the nasty alien thang - remember the N'Garai, or whatever they were that menaced Storm in that solo-ish in or around #104? 

But you gotta admit the Askanti (the race of star-faring whales that served as the Brood's sentient ships) was a fiercely creative idea (unless that was done somewhere else first).

As for Claremont's greatest sin, I wholeheartedly agree.
That one aspect (frustrating, never finishing up story hooks that really didn't have much reason not to - even worse yet - NEVER going back and finishing them up, was a even greater crime) does more to lessen the overall appreciation of the man's works than anything else.
In other words, it makes it hard to like the guy.

But I'll add in a problem I have with Claremont.

The whole Mr. Sinister/Apocalypse thing killed my interest in X-men.
The idea of introducing vastly-overpowered villians, who can never be defeated, they simply must be held back for a time, then will resurface whenever the writer feels like they want him behind some dastardly plot that abuses our heroes mercilessly.... is a horribly contrived plot device, and ruins any story they are used in, regardless of the merits that otherwise exist in the story.

Even worse, though, is that Claremont NEVER even deliniated their powers, did he?
How much of a cop-out is that, to just have a plot device that could be behind every problem the mutants face, going back to pre-history, and then not even detail what he can/can't do, or even what his powers come from?

But where X-men jumped the shark for me was with the introduction of Nimrod in #191.
Great idea - let's make an unspecified-powered robot that can't be destroyed, and can do basically anything.
Oh - let's capitalize on the greatness of old by having it come from the unbelievably-fantastic Days of Future Past storyline world, but not give the reader ANY more info or meat about that storyline.


----------



## Chun-tzu (May 12, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *I DID have a problem with Magneto being petty with Rogue on the plane - it just didn't seem in character to me. Lucky for him, Wolvie wasn't on the plane at the time, or there WOULD have been a fight (was Wolvie there?).*




Wolverine was on the plane. He was with Rogue, Iceman, and Pyro, remember? Jean and Storm picked them up in Boston, and they were later rescued by Magneto after the X-jet was shot down.


----------



## reapersaurus (May 12, 2003)

Chun-tzu said:
			
		

> *Wolverine was on the plane. He was with Rogue, Iceman, and Pyro, remember? Jean and Storm picked them up in Boston, and they were later rescued by Magneto after the X-jet was shot down. *



Than that's just silly that they had Magneto say something that unneeded, and nasty to Rogue with Wolvie present.
It detracts from the movie to include a line that makes multiple characters act against their nature, just because of sloppy writing.


----------



## John Crichton (May 12, 2003)

Anyone else see this info about Kelly Hu and X3?

http://www.superherohype.com/cgi-bin/news/fullnews.cgi?newsid1052742509,50083,


----------



## WizarDru (May 13, 2003)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> *Anyone else see this info about Kelly Hu and X3?
> 
> http://www.superherohype.com/cgi-bin/news/fullnews.cgi?newsid1052742509,50083, *




What, have you been keeping this site a secret?  It rocks!  They have a picture of Ron Perlman as Hellboy!  Sweet!


----------



## Kahuna Burger (May 13, 2003)

Umbran said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's okay, because, contrary to popular belief, very few Bostonians have the Boston accent. *




Very few people you run into in boston have been bostonians for very long. Being a big college town and having lots of people move there for business does that. In my expereince, however, police are right up there with "T" conductors and people you run into at fenway as being the ones who DO have the accent.

There's also the heavy accent vs the light. I've slowly picked up a bit of the light, but stil don't pawk my cah at hawvad yahd. (Townie friend in college always pronounced my name "cah-lah" (carla) drove a lexington friend batty...)

Kahuna Burger


----------



## Kahuna Burger (May 13, 2003)

Silver Moon said:
			
		

> *
> Thank you.  It's been bugging me ever since I saw the movie last Friday as to who Stryker was.  I remebered the name, and thought it was associated with X-Men, but could not place it.  I just checked the Graphic Novel, and the spelling is even the same.
> 
> BTW, anyone not familiar with this X-Men Graphic Novel should stop by a comic store to pick up a copy, it's one of the best X-Men stories ever written and Brent Anderson's art is also quite good*.
> *





I'll double up on that - I haven't seen the film yet, but got some details from my bf the other night after he saw it... Somewhere in the middle of the dicussion I went "Stryker?!? You mean REVEREND STRYKER?!? They turned him into a general??????"

God Loves Man Kills is probably the best Xmen story ever told. I also have to say that I hope that the only reason they morphed him from reverendhood was to combine two plot lines - the conflicts of faiths : Kurt's leading him to peace in spite of his life, Stryker's to violence, etc was a wonderful part of the orriginal story. It would be very sad if holywood was so gun-shy about religion in the current american climate that they shied away from the "dark side" of religious ferver even with a chance to counterbalance it in the same movie.

oh yeah...


> *
> *But nowhere near the level of his current work on Astro City, which is another comic that I would highly suggest. *




Is that back in production again? I followed it when it first started up, but it basically went out of production when Busick (sp?) was having health problems a while back.

Kahuna Burger


----------



## John Crichton (May 13, 2003)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *What, have you been keeping this site a secret?  It rocks!  They have a picture of Ron Perlman as Hellboy!  Sweet! *



Naw, they've been around for a while.  Goes back to my days as a comic-book site webmaster.  Plus, I believe there's a link on the ENWorld main page.  

Tis a great site for anything to do with comics/movies.


----------



## Welverin (May 13, 2003)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> *Is that back in production again? I followed it when it first started up, but it basically went out of production when Busick (sp?) was having health problems a while back.*




Yep, just started up again a two or three months ago. It's going to be mini-series that will be released once enough work has been done on them for the whole thing to come out on time.


----------



## Silver Moon (May 13, 2003)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> Is that back in production again? I followed it when it first started up, but it basically went out of production when Busick was having health problems a while back.[/B]



Yes, Astro City is back.  He's currently doing a five-issue run called "Local Heroes", each issue of which focuses on a normal human from the city whose life has changed due to the heroes.   Issue #1 focused on a doorman at a major hotel, while issue #2 was a flashback to the early 1960's with a career woman who was involved with a new atomic-powered hero (sort of an anti-Lois Lane story).   Issue three should be out in another week.


----------



## WizarDru (May 13, 2003)

Kahuna Burger said:
			
		

> God Loves Man Kills is probably the best Xmen story ever told. I also have to say that I hope that the only reason they morphed him from reverendhood was to combine two plot lines - the conflicts of faiths : Kurt's leading him to peace in spite of his life, Stryker's to violence, etc was a wonderful part of the orriginal story. It would be very sad if holywood was so gun-shy about religion in the current american climate that they shied away from the "dark side" of religious ferver even with a chance to counterbalance it in the same movie.[/B]



I don't see it as being so much gunshy as just realizing that it wouldn't add too much to the story, but would require a lot more work to explain.  In the movie, Stryker is essentially a highly-connected military project-leader, which puts him in the correct position to enact the main plot.  Originally, there were two major stories...but Singer grasped the core concept that so many comic adapting directors *don't*: Keep it Simple, Stupid.  Most major adaptions of comics feature far too much plot and far too many characters to carry the narrative.  X2, for the most part, avoids this.

Nightcrawler is added to the main cast, and is given considerable screen time to flesh out his character.  Colossus, who is not central or necessary to the plot, is given a cameo.  I like Colossus a lot, but there's only so much time in the movie.  That Kurt's faith is kept intact is an important element in the movie, and builds on the X-men's core ethos of unity and understanding.


----------

