# Firefly - I just don't get it



## reveal (Aug 1, 2005)

I've watched the two episodes of Firefly that have been aired so far on Sci-Fi because most people on here, and other internet sites, say it's the best thing since canned bread.

But so far, I just don't get the fascination. Yes, it has some great moments like 



Spoiler



in the second episode when the lawman is holding a gun to the cryo-frozen girl's head and threatens to shoot her and the captain walks in and shoots him without missing a beat.


 That made me laugh out loud.

Otherwise, though, it's just kind of "meh." I'm going to watch the rest of them, hoping I'll get drawn in more but, so far, it just doesn't do anything for me. Am I missing something? Am I not watching it the "right way?"  :\


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## trancejeremy (Aug 1, 2005)

There are just a lot of Joss Whedon fans on the internet. IMHO.  

(Better run away before I get burned at the stake... <g>)


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 1, 2005)

trancejeremy said:
			
		

> There are just a lot of Joss Whedon fans on the internet. IMHO.
> 
> (Better run away before I get burned at the stake... <g>)



 You're right. 

I'm not a Joss Whedon fan, but I really do love Firefly. I'm not sure I can pinpoint just why I like it...definitely the characters, but the whole Western style is great, too. I'd say stick with it and let the characters grow on you.


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## Wombat (Aug 1, 2005)

Actually, you are far from alone.

There are many of us who watched the show and, in the immortal words from _Buckaroo Banzai_ said, "So what?  Big deal."

For the most part, I felt like I was watching a show based on a bad Traveller adventure.  My sister, who otherwise worships Joss' work, can't stand this show -- and she loves sci fi!  

But for all that and all that, there is a very vocal group of people who love the show.  I don't begrudge them this love at all; heck, I loved _The Tick_, both animated and live, and they were both cancelled, so I know the pain of losing a show you like just when it seems to be getting good.  What _does_ annoy me, however, is people telling me that I _must_ like the show, which has happened far too often for my taste in regards to _Firefly_ -- but this only happens on the internet, never in "real life", where I have yet to meet a big fan.

So to those of you who love the show, good for you!  Enjoy it many times and to your heart's content.    (Please note:  this is a *100% sarcasm free* statement)

For those of you who do not like the show, don't feel pressured into watching something you do not enjoy.

It cuts both ways.


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## stevelabny (Aug 1, 2005)

the first two episodes on sci-fi are the pilot.

so you've watched one episode.

and by your admission it has good parts. 

has there ever been a show to completely make you crazy lusting for more after ONE episode? 

i think the pilot is great, and the next few episodes are ok. and then theres some really fund ones. and then theres some really great ones. 

but any show like this is going to depend on how attached to the characters you are, and one episode is never enough time to get attached. 

this just sounds like a case of unreasonable expectations.


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## MacMathan (Aug 1, 2005)

While I love the show, it is not for everyone. It really is more of a western aventure than a sci-fi show in the traditional sense and that turns some people off. Also some people do not like Joss' style of dialogue and charaterization, it kind of has a campy-ness all of its own. I was never a big Angel fan and only watched Buffy intermitently.

As far as pushing shows, I feel the same way about a lot of people telling me to watch the new Battlestar Galactica, I have tried a few times and it just pains me. 

To each his own, I just hope that they do keep trying to put out shows like these, even if they don't work for everyone one, cause they are a heck of lot better than the reality crap flooding my TV IMHO.


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## zepherus (Aug 1, 2005)

Like the famous quote..."You can't please all of the people all of the time".

I happen to like the show, because for me it gives a somewhat more realistic view of what life could be like in the future. Once humans start exploring space ( and not the tentative probing we have accomplished so far ), you wouldn't have laser guns, ion cannons, and starships. You would have simple craft that get the job done. I can picture off world developments being like old west towns. Simply built, yet simply functional.

And the fact that there is silence in space is really driven home. Finally, someone understood the idea that there is no noise in space ( no air for the air waves to travel through ).

So, yes, it is a show that is not for everyone. In fact, I would guess that most of my friends would not find it as interesting as I do. But for me, I do like it, because it combines my two favorite movie genres...westerns and sci-fi.

Zeph


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 1, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> But so far, I just don't get the fascination.



Same here.  I've watched the first two episodes and I watched a couple of episodes when it aired originally.  It isn't bad, but I don't think it's as wonderful as some people have been saying either.  Basically, it hasn't lived up to the hype so far.  It's been fairly entertaining so far, so I'll keep watching and we'll see what happens.

I'll admit that it _is_ better in order, so far.  It makes a lot more sense starting with this episode than the first one I saw when it originally premiered.  



			
				Wombat said:
			
		

> What _does_ annoy me, however, is people telling me that I _must_ like the show



Yep, I've had that problem with a number of shows I just didn't care for.


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## reveal (Aug 2, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> the first two episodes on sci-fi are the pilot.
> 
> so you've watched one episode.
> 
> ...




Not unreasonable expectations. But expectations nonetheless that I would like it more. I love a lot of sci-fi shows and hoped this would be a show I would add to that list since I've seen so many things saying how great the show is.

There have been many shows that I didn't fall in love with after watching the pilot. But all the shows I really like/liked had me at least saying "this is interesting and I like it so far" at the beginning. Firefly hasn't done that for me.


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## BryonD (Aug 2, 2005)

Wombat said:
			
		

> For the most part, I felt like I was watching a show based on a bad Traveller adventure.  My sister, who otherwise worships Joss' work, can't stand this show -- and she loves sci fi!




I'm a big Buffy/Angel fan.
I prefer sci-fi to fantasy.
The over-the-top anything goes silly fantasy elements were the biggest obstacle to me liking Buffy-verse.  But that was overcome in spades.

So here we have Joss doing gritty sci-fi, should be heaven on a DVD.
I'm through Shindig and so far its just..... ok.

Not bad.  I'll watch the rest.  And there are some classic Joss moments.  But the overall character interactions and story development seem really shallow so far.


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## Darthjaye (Aug 2, 2005)

Agreed.  It's not really a spectacular series.  There was potential, but every time I tried to watch it, I lost interest after a while.  For the most part though, I thouroughly enjoyed Nathan Fillion's acting (Mac).  I like his delivery within the character's he plays.  He played an excellent bad guy, you loved to hate, in the last season of Buffy VS.  He has a pretty good ability to deliver a joke with semi-serious characters.  That being said, after seeing the trailers for Serenity, I'm eager to see it and will endure the series as to acquire some backstory for the movie and more understanding of each character.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 2, 2005)

http://www.scooterandferret.com/scooter_ferret_comic_strip_7_08_05.htm


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## Darthjaye (Aug 2, 2005)

Good One!  I'm a Whedon fan, but like I said this series seemed badly executed.  I think the original idea probably sounded good on paper, but it obviously lost something in the translation to the small screen.  Maybe it wasn't supernatural enough as was Whedon's previous success with tv.


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## Dark Jezter (Aug 2, 2005)

I liked Firefly, and was disappointed that it was cancelled before it really had a chance to take off (didn't Fox know that putting a show in the Friday night time slot is the kiss of death?).  I thought it had a cool setting (I loved the concept of a space western), likable characters (except for the prostitute, whose main role in the series seemed to be looking pretty and acting badly), and interesting plots.

I don't, however, think that it was the greatest show in the history of television and the Fox executives should burn in hell for cancelling it, nor am I a Joss Whedon fanboy who thinks that everything he touches turns to gold.  Firefly was a good show, maybe even good enough to buy the DVDs, but I'll survive without it.


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## takyris (Aug 2, 2005)

Unless you're on a quest for self-betterment through character building, there's no reason to watch a show that doesn't appeal to you. It's the show's job to get you interested -- few shows that are "acquired tastes" go on to do real well in the long run, and while this may not be fair or just or the way it ought to be, that's the way it is, and any realistic network exec knows it at this point. The only exception is when a big enough name is attached to the show to make you think "Okay, I'll give it a chance to grow on me."

Ergo, Firefly gets cancelled. Not necessarily Whedon's fault -- a lackluster ad campaign, schedule-bumps because of baseball, and so forth -- but at heart, it's a show that took a little getting used to, and Joss Whedon didn't have a big enough name to pull people in despite it being an acquired taste.

Don't get me wrong. I liked the show a lot. But that's how the business goes these days.


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## Umbran (Aug 2, 2005)

You know, guys, you may think you're being funny with the "Joss Wheadon fan" harping, but what you're effectively doing is dismissing other people before you hear their opinions.  Nice job, there.  Good work with the open-mindedness and exchange of ideals.


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## Renton (Aug 2, 2005)

I was a big fan of Buffy and Angel, so I was also excited about Firefly.  I have to admit though, I was underwhelmed by the first few episodes.  I kept watching, coz even with its faults it was still better than most of the shows on at the time.  

It turned out to be some primo creeper of a show.  Once the show started clicking - around the time of "Out of Gas", "Ariel", and "War Stories" - I was pretty well hooked.  I just wish it would have had a bit more time to grow an audience.  

I'm stoked about the movie, and will probably see it opening day. I'd love to see the film become a success and ressurect the tv show, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 2, 2005)

I'm actually a rather huge Whedon fan, but I've always been fond of his style of dialogue.


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## Lazybones (Aug 2, 2005)

I am a huge Firefly fan and think that the Fox executives should burn in hell for cancelling it. I'm "meh" on the other Whedon shows so I guess I can't be called a fanboy. 

As for encouraging others to watch it, I've lent my DVDs to some folks but haven't gone further than that (except for participating in discussions here and elsewhere about the series, I guess). I could care less if anyone else watches it, except so far that if no one does, then it's not bloody likely we'll see more of it, or shows like it. 

In that sense, I guess I'm an advocate. But I'm not going to tell anyone they HAVE to watch it; I'll suggest it to people who have never seen it, but if you watch a few eps and don't like it, fair enough.


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## Aeson (Aug 2, 2005)

I encourage people to see the series and movie. I loved Firefly. I really liked the Buffy series but not so much the movie. Angel is one of my all time favorite programs. I also like the new Battlestar. My parents never got into any of these programs but they like fantasy and scifi. 

Everyone is allowed their opinion. I ask you go into the show with an open mind. It sounds like some of you may have given into the pressure from fans. It could have clouded your judgment. I may be wrong and if I am, I am sorry.

Enjoy the rest. There is some good stuff coming. If the first episode does not hook you I doubt the rest will but it should still be a joy to watch. 

Whedon is good but I don't think he is perfect. 

A side note. He wrote Alien Resurection but claims the final product was not what he wrote. I think they must have made changes to his script. I'm curious to see his original.


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## Chain Lightning (Aug 2, 2005)

I probably tried Firefly in the wrong way. I saw the test screening of Serenity and that was my first taste of it. I've heard of the series and the basic premise. I thought it sounded like something worth checking out. But just never got around to doing it. 

Saw the movie, and was kinda...."Eh, its okay". I like the concept of the space western, but in my opinion, it was not executed right. If there was a recipe for this, it seemed Whedon used 2cups of sci-fi, and only 1 teaspoon of Western. A lot of the guns they use aren't very western-esque. The costumes weren't too western -esque either. It only seemed like two characters were western-esque and that was it. That...and maybe the kitchen....but that was really it.

Directing wise....the movie didn't feel like a movie. The sets, the camera work, the fight scenes, they all seemed very TV-ish still.

I  didn't think it stunk. Still was more enjoyable than Andromeda or Lexx, but it didn't wow me. And it certainly didn't elevate my fanboy nature to the level I see others exhibit.

But like an above poster said, I'm glad others really enjoy it. Just not my thing is all. I know I have some things I love and nobody else gets it.


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## Shadowdancer (Aug 2, 2005)

Renton said:
			
		

> I was a big fan of Buffy and Angel, so I was also excited about Firefly. I have to admit though, I was underwhelmed by the first few episodes. I kept watching, coz even with its faults it was still better than most of the shows on at the time.
> 
> It turned out to be some primo creeper of a show. Once the show started clicking - around the time of "Out of Gas", "Ariel", and "War Stories" - I was pretty well hooked. I just wish it would have had a bit more time to grow an audience.
> 
> I'm stoked about the movie, and will probably see it opening day. I'd love to see the film become a success and ressurect the tv show, but I'm not holding my breath.




I wasn't a big fan of Buffy and Angel, but everything else in your post is about the same way I felt. I watched some of the first few episodes, and felt the show was OK, but I was hoping for better. But it was better than most shows on broadcast TV.

Then with "Out of Gas," the series started to gel. The writing, the acting, the stories, the directing -- everything clicked. Just about everything after that was really great, and kept getting better. I was so glad I had kept watching -- I felt like the time I had invested in watching the earlier episodes was being rewarded.

It takes a while for any series to find itself. The actors have to adjust to the characters. The writers have to adjust to the actors. The directors have to get a feel for -- everything about the milieu.

For those who are watching the series on Sci Fi, or watching the DVD set in order, I encourage you to stick with it. The episodes will improve as the series progresses.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 2, 2005)

I must be the only person who enjoyed Alien Resurrection. Aside from the climax (I cringe at the physics of sucking something to bits with vacuum), I had no complaints. It's a solid, tongue-in-cheek action movie.


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## mhacdebhandia (Aug 2, 2005)

There are shows which ran for a lot longer than _Firefly_ which took a lot more time to get in their groove than _Firefly_ did.

_Star Trek: The Next Generation_ and _Star Trek: Deep Space Nine_, for two.

To be consistently hitting your stride and producing excellent genre drama after less than a dozen episodes is an admirable feat.

That's not to say that its excellence means it has to appeal to everyone - I can envision many people having a "meh" or "wtf?" reaction to the slightly archaic language, the Mandarin, the science of the spaceships and terraformed moons, and so on. If it doesn't jazz you, it doesn't jazz you - _tian xiaode_ why, but if everyone liked the same thing what a terrible oatmeal shortage there would be.


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## Umbran (Aug 2, 2005)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> Saw the movie, and was kinda...."Eh, its okay". I like the concept of the space western, but in my opinion, it was not executed right. If there was a recipe for this, it seemed Whedon used 2cups of sci-fi, and only 1 teaspoon of Western.




The film does not emphasize the western style as much as the series did. 



> Directing wise....the movie didn't feel like a movie. The sets, the camera work, the fight scenes, they all seemed very TV-ish still.




Well, given that the movie is supposed to follow on from the series, you would not expect (or want) a serious departure from the series style.  If your main attraction is that you're descended from an apple, you don't then go and hand the audience an orange.


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## mhacdebhandia (Aug 2, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> The film does not emphasize the western style as much as the series did.



This is very true. The emphasis was firmly on the "future" and less on the "frontier" throughout. I'd expect that to change if they make a sequel.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 2, 2005)

I think Whedon is definitely a love-him-or-hate-him kind of thing.  Not everyone is going to like his particular brand of humor and style.  It's a kind of post-hip, southern california vibe, and I can see all kinds of folks not getting it or liking it.  I like most of his stuff, as do most of the folks I hang around with, but I don't feel the need to have everyone like it.


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## Psychic Warrior (Aug 2, 2005)

I love Firefly but pretty much loathed Buffy/Angel.  I can see a lot of people not liking Firefly but since the show was never given a real shot I guess we will never know exactly how successful it could have been.  

C'mon September!


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## Aeson (Aug 2, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I must be the only person who enjoyed Alien Resurrection. Aside from the climax (I cringe at the physics of sucking something to bits with vacuum), I had no complaints. It's a solid, tongue-in-cheek action movie.





I liked it. I mean anything with Ron Pearlman is going to be good while his character is still alive. 
That was not the only reason. Like you said it was a solid, tongue-in-cheek action movie. I think the movie had some of the more interesting and entertaining characters in the series.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 2, 2005)

I don't think I'm tainted by fan attitude unless there is residual from Buffy and Angel -- two shows I never really cared for with really... enthusiastic... fan bases.  I watched the first couple episodes of Firefly when it first aired and developed no real love or hate for it.  I liked it enough that I'd watch it when I knew it was coming on (unlike Buffy or Angel) but I didn't think it was great the way something like Babylon 5 was great.  I didn't see that many episodes because it kept getting shifted around and I couldn't keep up with it -- and the show didn't really inspire me to make much effort to do so.  

I've started watching this time around because I keep hearing how great the episodes are if seen in order and I want to see for myself.  Having just seen the pilot, it's probably too early to tell.  Things make more sense now than they did originally, but my attitude hasn't really changed yet.  I suppose I'll watch the whole run and see how things go.  

My problem so far hasn't been with the technology, it's been the characters.  None of them has really struck me as likeable except the girl who got shot.  The priest and the woman who appears to be the captain's first officer are starting to grow on me but I don't really care for any of the others.  I particularly dislike Jayne (despite his obvious appreciation for being properly armed) and River (who reminds me too much of "Buffy" and I never liked that show).  I suspect I'd like the show more if I liked the characters more.


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## RangerWickett (Aug 2, 2005)

I used to be a huge fan of Babylon 5. Then I realized how overdrawn a lot of the action is, particularly when Straczynski was writing it. I mean, I loved it when it was on, but I look back now and wonder at a lot of really awkward moments. True, it was his first TV show where he was producer, and Crusade was better, but even 3rd season of B5 had a few too many things I cringe at now.

And a few brilliant moments I wish I watch again.


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## Piratecat (Aug 2, 2005)

Caveat: I expected to realy dislike Firefly (I kind of like Buffy, and really don't care for Angel), and ended up loving it. For me the "click" came at the end of the "Train Robbery" second episode when 



Spoiler



the bad guy who has "returning, monologuing villain" written all over him gets kicked through the spaceship engine.



From a DM's point of view, this show is a wonderful example of how to plot a rat bastardy game, and how to plot a good caper. It doesn't happen in every episode, but Whedon is awfully good at reversing expectations and pulling the rug out from under you plot-wise. I learned a lot about plotting from watching it, and had a tremendous amount of fun in the process.

I agree that it took me longer than the pilot to get hooked, though. Try to keep watching until "Jaynestown;" in my opinion, that's one that's not to be missed.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 2, 2005)

I didn't like it either.  Not a big fan of Wheadon's dialogue.


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## Dagger75 (Aug 2, 2005)

Seeing this thread makes me cry 

Seriously a friend is a super huge Angle/Buffy fan, hates Firefly.  Another guy I know is "meh" with Firefly as well.

 I love Firefly but an "meh" with Angle/Buffy.  No biggy, everybodies taste are different.  I have no idea what everybody sees in Battlestar Galactica or Smallville so I can see where you are coming from.


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## MojoGM (Aug 2, 2005)

Well, I can't say I've ever watched much Buffy or Angel, they just never struck me as something I would like.

But I'm a HUGE Firefly fan.  Hey, maybe it's not for everyone, and certainly nobody HAS to like it (or else!).  Give it a chance, see if it is your cup of tea, and leave it at that.

Seems some people are going into it NOT wanting to like it.  Well, ya can't please everyone I suppose.

But let me say this:  Most shows take a season or so to take off and get good.  In my opinion (YMMV): 

B-5 season 1?  Eh.  
B-5 seasons 2-4?  Awesome!  
X-Files season 1?  Not bad.  
X-Files Season 2 to whatever?  Excellent (ok, it did lose some at the end there)
ST:TNG season 1?  Horrible!
ST:TNG later seasons?  Pretty darn good.
Briscoe County Jr?  Ok, that one was ALWAYS good!  I'm still missing that one.

Anyway, Firefly was really good in my opinion and had GREAT potential to become even better.  It's too bad the way network TV works shows don't get a chance.

If I had a dime for every show I loved that died before it's time, I'd...well, I'd have a crap-load of dimes thats for sure!


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## KaosDevice (Aug 2, 2005)

Just as an aside is anyone picking up the three issue comic series that is supposed to fill in the gap between the series and the movie? I understand the first one is out.


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## MojoGM (Aug 2, 2005)

KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Just as an aside is anyone picking up the three issue comic series that is supposed to fill in the gap between the series and the movie? I understand the first one is out.




I've picked up the first issue, but have not read it yet.  I may wait until I have all 4 or 5 (or however many there will be).


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## KaosDevice (Aug 2, 2005)

MojoGM said:
			
		

> I've picked up the first issue, but have not read it yet.  I may wait until I have all 4 or 5 (or however many there will be).





I think it is just a three issue job.


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## Mark Chance (Aug 2, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> this just sounds like a case of unreasonable expectations.




So, by all means, lower your expectations. Lower them enough and everything becomes enjoyable.

Even Joss Whedon.


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## stevelabny (Aug 2, 2005)

you joke, but i think my point is valid.

any television show with any depth needs more than one episode to hook you.

i didn't fall in love with twin peaks instantly. or buffy. (till mid season 2) or angel (till season 3) or veronica mars or gargoyles or any of the other shows i've been hooked on. in all cases, the shows were good and or entertaining enough on some level that was enough to keep me watching (as opposed to say smallville or other shows) 

most continuing dramas on tv are structured in such a way to slowly introduce you to the characters and their universe, get you attached to the characters and then build from there.  they do not offer the same "instant" gratification of a movie which is structured to go from beginning to end in 2 hours.


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## reveal (Aug 2, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> you joke, but i think my point is valid.
> 
> any television show with any depth needs more than one episode to hook you.




And that's why I said I would continue to watch the rest of the episodes. I just wanted to know if I was missing something because so many of my peers were clamoring about how "wonderful" this show was.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 2, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> So, by all means, lower your expectations. Lower them enough and everything becomes enjoyable.
> 
> Even Joss Whedon.



 Sometimes I wonder if there's anything at all you like. You're worse than Comic Book Guy!


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## reveal (Aug 2, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Sometimes I wonder if there's anything at all you like. You're worse than Comic Book Guy!




Worst. Reply. Ever.


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## Nellisir (Aug 2, 2005)

I had never seen Firefly on tv, and bought the DVD just because I could.  The first few episodes didn't do anything for me, but I started getting into it after 4 or 5 episodes, and now I'm really looking forward to the movie.  It starts off slow, but gets better as it builds complexity and we find more out about River (and the episode where the Captain gets married is pretty good).



			
				MacMathan said:
			
		

> As far as pushing shows, I feel the same way about a lot of people telling me to watch the new Battlestar Galactica, I have tried a few times and it just pains me.




I tried Battlestar a few times, and couldn't get into it at all - very confusing.  So I bought the miniseries, and all the pieces have (mostly) fallen together (I haven't seen most of Season 1).  If you haven't seen the mini, buy it & watch it.  Everything will start to make sense.

Cheers
Nell.


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## ecliptic (Aug 2, 2005)

I could barely watch a Buffy episode and I automatically switch off Angel.

Firefly is one of the best scifi shows made, its just under Battlestar Galactica.

Anyway, what is the point of this thread other than to bash the show? So people need to know about what you think of the show? The entire thread is just an excuse to talk bad about it.


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## mafisto (Aug 2, 2005)

I think reveal had a very good original point - the show just isn't grabbing him like he thought it would.  If I were in the same situation I would probably be asking the same question.  Where the thread's gone awry is the opportunistic bashing that inevitably gets attached to conversations like this.

I think the argument for watching more than just pilot has been well argued, so I'll just leave it at that.  It tooks three eps for me to 'get it' as well, and I was just dying to love it.

I understand wanting to shy away from rabid fan-boy/girl shows simply because people don't like the hard sell.  I had the same resistance to Buffy/Angel/BSG/Wonderfalls/Veronica Mars/etc - you just don't like feeling forced into something.  But c'mon, we're not talking about guns to the head.  People are often crazy in love with something for a reason, not because they're simply retarded.  Since finding out that the rabid fans are usually onto something remarkable, my policy has now become, "Try it out, give it a fair shot."  If I don't like a show after a half-dozen eps then I probably never will, but in most cases I'm really very impressed.  I'm honestly much happier with the time I've spent watching television because of it.


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## reveal (Aug 2, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> I could barely watch a Buffy episode and I automatically switch off Angel.
> 
> Firefly is one of the best scifi shows made, its just under Battlestar Galactica.
> 
> Anyway, what is the point of this thread other than to bash the show? So people need to know about what you think of the show? The entire thread is just an excuse to talk bad about it.




You got it. I made the entire thread to talk bad about a tv show. I have nothing else to do with my time.  Speaking of which, don't you have anything better to do than to read this thread? Don't like it, don't read it. :\ 

I started the thread to ask if I was missing something. If I watch a show, read a book, watch a movie, listen to music, etc that is popular and I don't like it, is it not ok to ask what other people think? Is it not ok to ask why they like it or if I will like it if I watch/read/listen to more than the first show/movie/book/album?


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## reveal (Aug 2, 2005)

mafisto said:
			
		

> I think reveal had a very good original point - the show just isn't grabbing him like he thought it would.  If I were in the same situation I would probably be asking the same question.  Where the thread's gone awry is the opportunistic bashing that inevitably gets attached to conversations like this.
> 
> I think the argument for watching more than just pilot has been well argued, so I'll just leave it at that.  It tooks three eps for me to 'get it' as well, and I was just dying to love it.
> 
> I understand wanting to shy away from rabid fan-boy/girl shows simply because people don't like the hard sell.  I had the same resistance to Buffy/Angel/BSG/Wonderfalls/Veronica Mars/etc - you just don't like feeling forced into something.  But c'mon, we're not talking about guns to the head.  People are often crazy in love with something for a reason, not because they're simply retarded.  Since finding out that the rabid fans are usually onto something remarkable, my policy has now become, "Try it out, give it a fair shot."  If I don't like a show after a half-dozen eps then I probably never will, but in most cases I'm really very impressed.  I'm honestly much happier with the time I've spent watching television because of it.




I've been quoted! Cool.  

But that "weasel" quote is from the Simpsons and belongs to Homer.


----------



## barsoomcore (Aug 3, 2005)

reveal, I think you'll find you like the show as you watch more episodes. It's subtle. It takes its time.

But it's really, really good.

It's not _Moonlighting_ or anything, but it's really good.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 3, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I used to be a huge fan of Babylon 5. Then I realized how overdrawn a lot of the action is, particularly when Straczynski was writing it. I mean, I loved it when it was on, but I look back now and wonder at a lot of really awkward moments. True, it was his first TV show where he was producer, and Crusade was better, but even 3rd season of B5 had a few too many things I cringe at now.
> 
> And a few brilliant moments I wish I watch again.



Yeah, but when that aired you were probably still in middle school, right?  I loved the original Battlestar Galactica when I was 9, but looking at it through adult eyes I see a lot of flaws I never noticed back then.  I think that's just the effect of growing up.  

Not that I'm saying Babylon 5 is perfect, it certainly has its flaws, but I still think it was a great series.


----------



## Wayside (Aug 3, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> I could barely watch a Buffy episode and I automatically switch off Angel.
> 
> Firefly is one of the best scifi shows made, its just under Battlestar Galactica.
> 
> Anyway, what is the point of this thread other than to bash the show? So people need to know about what you think of the show? The entire thread is just an excuse to talk bad about it.



The point of the thread is roughly the same as the point of your post: people like to talk about their likes and dislikes. Generally it's helpful if they include a 'why,' but those are in short supply in this particular thread. I'll contribute to this lack by stating that Buffy is one of the best shows ever made, Angel is solid, Battlestar Galactica blows and Firefly rocks--and none of my friends have ever watched (or necessarily heard of) any of these shows, yet we still manage to get along just fine!


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## Mark Chance (Aug 3, 2005)

Ankh-Morpork Guard said:
			
		

> Sometimes I wonder if there's anything at all you like. You're worse than Comic Book Guy!




Comic Book Guy? Can't stand him. 

Actually, I am pretty consistent in my general disdain for Joss Whedon. At the same time, I thoroughly enjoy The Kentucky Fried Movie, so I guess there really is no accounting for taste.


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## reveal (Aug 3, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> Comic Book Guy? Can't stand him.
> 
> Actually, I am pretty consistent in my general disdain for Joss Whedon. At the same time, I thoroughly enjoy The Kentucky Fried Movie, so I guess there really is no accounting for taste.




"What was that? You need total concentwation."


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## WizarDru (Aug 3, 2005)

Mark Chance said:
			
		

> Actually, I am pretty consistent in my general disdain for Joss Whedon. At the same time, I thoroughly enjoy The Kentucky Fried Movie, so I guess there really is no accounting for taste.




I think it's one of the funniest movies ever...and I like Firefly, too.  So, what does that say about me?



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> But it's really, really good.
> 
> It's not _Moonlighting_ or anything, but it's really good.




..but...
...but...
...but you hate everything I like!  How can you like these things?  Are you sure you're REALLY barsoomcore.  I don't think you are.


----------



## Thanatos (Aug 3, 2005)

When I first saw Firefly, I didn't really like it.

It was cool, it reminded me of Traveller, but...it didn't seem to jive.

So, I said I'd give it another go...eventually got around to being home to see 'Shindig'. I laughed and laughed...I was really entertained by the whole episode.

The next one I caught...well...(sings) "The hero of canton, the man they call jaaynnneee" lol. It was not only cheesy, but it showed some darkside to it. Very serious ending.

Then, I had to move and work some odd hours and missed it till it was over a friend loaned me 3 CDs (before they came out on DvD) with the unaired episodes and I watched them and was immediately captured by 'Heart of Gold'

So I borrowed all their copies (they recorded them from tv) and watched each one in order and it made alot more sense...and I entranced...bought the DvD's when they came out...bought some for my friends too and got them hooked.

I've pondered alot on why the show appeals so much to me...I mean, it IS cheesy...has some bad dialogue (it did have some funny dialogue too though)...the acting got alot better towards the end.

And it dawned on me...the show had heart. Took a bit to find it, but that was enough to sell me.

and a parting quote: 

"Every man there go back inside or we will blow a new crater in this little moon."


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## John Crichton (Aug 3, 2005)

mafisto said:
			
		

> I understand wanting to shy away from rabid fan-boy/girl shows simply because people don't like the hard sell. I had the same resistance to Buffy/Angel/BSG/Wonderfalls/Veronica Mars/etc - you just don't like feeling forced into something. But c'mon, we're not talking about guns to the head. People are often crazy in love with something for a reason, not because they're simply retarded. Since finding out that the rabid fans are usually onto something remarkable, my policy has now become, "Try it out, give it a fair shot." If I don't like a show after a half-dozen eps then I probably never will, but in most cases I'm really very impressed. I'm honestly much happier with the time I've spent watching television because of it.



I look for these kinds of shows and usually pick them up on DVD (God bless DVD).  For example, I never really liked B5 when it was on the air but I picked up the first season DVD and started to really like it by the end.  Turns out that the series is some of the best science fiction ever put on the air.  Go figure.

As for Firefly, I was predisposed to liking it being (evidently) a Joss Whedon fanboy.  The dude just knows how to make entertaining TV/comics, much like Kevin Smith that connect with me.


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## Dark Jezter (Aug 3, 2005)

It always annoys me when people say "Keep watching this show.  You'll start liking it, I promise."  I have a friend who once told me that Neon Genesis Evangelion was the greatest thing since sliced bread, and bugged me to watch the first few episodes of the show.  When I didn't like it, he told me that the show was an acquired taste and that I'd like it after viewing a little more. When I still didn't like it after a few more episodes, he promised that after seeing the complete series, I'd appreciate it.  So I reluctantly agreed to watch the rest of it.

I still haven't forgiven him for putting me through that headache-inducing, pretentious crap.  Blech!

Now, If a show dosen't capture my interest within the first few episodes, I'm not going to waste my time with it.


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## Acid_crash (Aug 3, 2005)

I don't like Angel at all... I kind of like some Buffy episodes... but I love Firefly.

I think he blended in the western and sci-fi aspects very well, in his own unique way.  I also think that a lot of people, who having heard on here, and elsewhere, how great this show is.  Some people then, upon getting a chance to watch the show, have high expectations, and when you go into a show or movie with high expectations, it's almost impossible to not be dissapointed, no matter what that show or movie is.

With high expectations comes dissapointment.  I've only seen a very few amount of movies that ever met my expectations when I had high hopes for them.  Most times I get dissapointed because I expect this great, glamorous, awesome show, and it doesn't happen.

I think this is what is happening with Firefly.  There are a lot of people who just love the show, rave about the show, and just can't keep talking about it.  I am one of them.  I think Firefly is one of the best shows on tv.  How the character's develop as you watch the show, seeing how they came together, just sitting back and letting them grow on you.  

I got hooked on episode I.  The special effects, blended with the western style of gun fighting, and how the crew reacts to each other, and how the technology is (no phaser beams, no teleporters, no campy star trek crap) and the difference between the Alliance planets and the outer planets.  The overall story of these people living on this ship, just trying to do jobs to make enough to survive.  

God I want it to be September now.


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## John Crichton (Aug 3, 2005)

Acid_crash said:
			
		

> I got hooked on episode I. The special effects, blended with the western style of gun fighting, and how the crew reacts to each other, and how the technology is (no phaser beams, no teleporters, no campy star trek crap) and the difference between the Alliance planets and the outer planets. The overall story of these people living on this ship, just trying to do jobs to make enough to survive.



Same here.  It didn't take me very long to really enjoy what was going on.  Of course, things got better and better as the stories got more meat but the core characters and concept worked.  The 'verse just seem lived in and like things could end up being (which is something Galatica does well, too).  And if there was any doubt for me I recall the last scene of The Train Job where they are planetside and it's cemented.  2 of my friends who were never big Joss fans watched almost every ep with me when it originally aired (Friday was Firefly night) so I knew he had something going for it when they liked it.


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## Ferret (Aug 3, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I'm actually a rather huge Whedon fan, but I've always been fond of his style of dialogue.




But you've nailed what I love about his work; Dialogue.

I love his work but I'd never heard or Whedon before Firefly (I watched buffy copiously, never payed the credits much attention, hell when I saw his name briefly I magined an 'n' in there and Pronounced it Whendon  )


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## Belen (Aug 3, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> And that's why I said I would continue to watch the rest of the episodes. I just wanted to know if I was missing something because so many of my peers were clamoring about how "wonderful" this show was.




I think that the show really begins to gel with "Bushwacked" followed by "Our Mrs. Reynolds."  These are episodes 3 and 4 respectively.  I think that one reason you hear people rave about the show is simplely because they have seen all the episodes.

For instance, "Ariel" maybe the greatest single TV episode I have ever witnessed and that feeling comes from the last 5 minutes of that episode.  Joss has an amazing knack for creating and advancing characters.  There is a character moment in "Ariel" that just blows you away.

My wife and I are addicted to the show.  And, it seems, that everyone we lend the DVDs too also become addicted.  Heck, we lent them to Jon Potter at one time.  He had them about a month and returned them to us before finishing all the episodes.  Two weeks later, his wife told him that he was not allowed to come home unless he brought the DVDs so that they could finish them.

Once the cast gels with each other and their characters, the show just shines.   And it does not take long to hit the sweet spot.  ST:TNG took two seasons to find the same place that Firefly hit in a quarter of a season.

It also helps that the actors loved their fans.  The actors who played Mal, Jayne, and Kaylee were always getting on the messageboards to talk with fans.  Adam Baldwin (Jayne) provided constant updates to the fans during the "hiatus."  Those people loved the show, loved each other, and loved their audience and it shows in their acting once everything "clicks."


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## Warrior Poet (Aug 3, 2005)

I've loved this show from the first episode I saw (_Train Robbery_), and actually from within the first 5 minutes of that episode.  The moment that sealed it for me was 



Spoiler



Mal getting thrown through the tavern window in classic movie Western style, and it's a holo-projection window that reforms after he "breaks through."


  They took a classic Western cliche and had a little fun with it. I thought:  "Genius.  I'm in."

I love Westerns, so that has a lot to do with why I like the series.  Other things:

-Good characters.  I find I'm interested in them and what they do and where they're going and why they do what they do.  I like the conflicts, the network of friends, the alliances, the confusion, the mixed perceptions, the complexities.

-Good dialogue. Spoilers. 



Spoiler



"We will make our home in this land and we will call it . . . this land." "'Dear Diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy.  We got kidnapped by hill folk and it was the best day ever!'" "A special hell." "If I'm ever going to kill you, you'll be awake, you'll be facing me, and you'll be armed." "Even Vera'd barely pierce the hull, and she's the best I got!" "It's very vague on the subject of kneecaps." "I can kill you with my brain." "As long as you're on my table, you're safe." "How big a room?" "You want something slinky?  I'll buy you something slinky.  Captain, can I have some money to buy Zoe something slinky." "How can you say that about me?  How can you disrespect me in front of others?" "With swa?" "How drunk was I last night?" "Fight with him sometimes, too." "Well, I was fired, from a fry-cook opportunity."


 etc.

-Nice attention to details.  No sound in space outside of atmosphere.  Nice.

-Good mix of humor and gravity (in the "grave" sense, not the mysterious force that keeps us from flying off into space, though that's certainly nice, too).

-Sense of fun.

-Good cast.  Nice work, casting department.  Nice work.

-Interesting world development that nods back to history (U.S. Civil War, a historical topic of interest to me) just like, well, hey, life.

-The world looks lived in, not sterile.  Not everyone has the same technology or wealth level, just like, well, etc.

-Good writing and plots, from _Jaynestown_ to _Out of Gas_ to _War Stories_ to _Objects in Space._

I think the show's terrific.  It's the most fun with a Western I've had in a long time, and it also happens to have spaceships and advanced guns and strange technology.  Bonus!  The only thing it needs is a scene with Kaylee and Inara and Zoe.  Together.  In the shower.

{Ahem}

I'll be in my bunk, 

Warrior Poet


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 3, 2005)

I watched Firefly from the first episode aired on FOX (The Train Job).  I was hooked from almost the first minute.  I cannot say why exactly, but something about the show really resonated with me.  Whe I saw it I had no idea it was a Joss Whedon show, which may have been a good thing since Buffy and Angel never did much for me, despite the fact that my friends all raved about those shows and proclaimed Joss Whedon to be eligible for godhood.  In my opinion if you have only watched the first two episodes, give it one or two more, they are not the best of the series.  If after a couple more shows, you still think it's only OK, then either the show just isn't your thing, or you came in with some expectations after hearing people (like me admittedly) rave about the show, and it hasn't lived up to them.  So what, move on.  There isn't a show out there that everyone loves, that's why we have so freakin' many channels these days.


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## Westgate Polks (Aug 3, 2005)

*Firefly - "Low" Sci-Fi*

Reveal -

First off - yay to you!  There are not too many people who would comment against something this popular they don't like while making strong points (as opposed to simple bashing).  As someone who has recently come to really enjoy the show I appreciate the honesty and the open mind.

Second off, not everyone will like Firefly.  The show is a bit quirky and no show is for everyone.  I won't try to show you where you are "wrong", because you aren't.  What I will do is point out a few things that I enjoy about the show you can get a sense of where at lease one of the fans is coming from.

Just as a bit of background, I don't really enjoy either Buffy the Vampire Slayer OR Angel, and I missed the Firefly tv show.  I have several friends who are fans and they talked the show up.  At ComiCon 2005 I was fortuante enough to attend the sneak preview and to playtest the new RPG coming out; both were thoroughly enjoyable and prompted me to begin watching the DVDs.

The most striking elements of the show are "low" science:  there is no FTL travel and there are no aliens.  Combining these elements make for a setting that is very different from most Sci-Fi fare.  It also places boundaries around the storytelling, as locals can't be hundreds of lightyears away from one another and the antagonist can't have wild racial abilities to pose challenges.  The resulting setting is very human-esque.

I find the juxstaposition of the science fiction element and the western element very entertaining even if it presents a few logical conundrums that I have yet to reconcile.  It illuminates the whole "space as the last fontier" mentality that sci-fi has had for some time.  It also highlights the relatively low technology level of the show.  This again places emphasis on the story by removing elements that some sci-fi creators hide behind.  Everyone does not possess massive laser weapons (although laser technology does exist), there are not teleporters to instantly bridge the gap between locals and make "instant calvary" a possible story option, and there are not robots / droids for every function.  I do have troubles with so many characters speaking with a southern accent:  it doesn't make sense to me that such a large population would speak with a particular American dialect AND that said dialect really exists only on the fringes of Alliance.  

The parallels between the War of Unification in the series and the American Civil War also interest me, in that the Alliance (the winners, the group trying to maintain cohesion) is portrayed as the 'bad guy' while the Brown Coats (the losers, the sepratists) are portrayed as freedom fighters seeking their own place in the world.  Not only does that decision stand much conventional teaching about the civil war on end, it also places the shows point of view such that we get a different perspective.

The other component of the show that really captures my attention are the characters.  Some are a bit stereotypical, but most have at least one fresh aspect that sets them apart.
The Captain is probably the least unique of the characters, as he is an ex-soldier type no running a team of thieves who (mostly) rob from the rich, etc. etc.  His relative lack of superior knowledge does set him apart a bit, and the fact that he is NOT always cool and collected is also a nice touch.  The first mate is unique in that she is a strong black woman; NOT the typical second-in-command type at all.  The fact that she almost blindly follows the captains orders yet has no hesitation in prioritizing differently when her husband is also at risk.  Her husband, the pilot, is atypical of 'hot-shot' pilots in that he is not overly macho and does not always handle himself well.  He flies, but he is not a great fighter.  The master mechanic is a very young woman (who, when over her head, acts more like a old girl) with a raging sex-drive.  And of course there is the companion (the 'whore') who, in a great twist of irony, has more legitimacy than the rest of the crew.

It's very cool that you are planning on watching a few more episodes to get a better sense of the show for yourself.  I hope you enjoy them!


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## BiggusGeekus (Aug 3, 2005)

People who do not like _Firefly_ should be recycled.



... OK maybe I should embrace a little more peace, love, and understanding.  But with _Firefly_ the show steadily builds.  It's completely character based and those characters are developed over time.  I really didn't like the _Battlestar Galactica_ pilot and I only watched the show because it was on after Atlantis and I wasn't doing anything else that late on a Friday.  Now I'm a huge BSG fan.

Keep watching until "Shindig" which is episode four or five.  It's the one where Mal goes to the fancy party.  If you don't like that, I can't see that you'll like the rest of the series.  Although I agree with PC about "Janyestown", but that's futher on.


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## Hijinks (Aug 3, 2005)

> But you've nailed what I love about his work; Dialogue.




I thought it was funny, when Inara and Kaylee first meet in the first episode (they obviously have met before), they both say "Hey you" softly ... I said "uh oh!"  That's a classic Whedon greeting for women who have been (or will become) lovers, or who appreciate in each other the ability to love women.  Then in one of the next scenes, 

~~ SPOILER SPOILER I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO CHANGE THE COLOR OF THE TEXT!! ~~

another character (I think it's Jayne) announces that Kaylee has homosexual tendencies, and then in a later episode we learn that Inara enjoys sex with women as well as men.

Joss Whedon likes to insert lesbians into his shows, which I don't particularly mind, but he tips it off through his dialogue, at least to those of us who are staunch Buffy fans and are used to how Willow and Tara acted around each other.


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## WizarDru (Aug 3, 2005)

You can use the [*spoiler] TAG [/*spoiler].  Just remove the '*' from what I just typed, and then you'll have something like this:



Spoiler



River is made of Chocolate!



There's a second spoiler tag that gives the 'show' button, but I don't remember the syntax.  It's spoilerXXXX, but I don't recall the word.


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## reveal (Aug 3, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> You can use the [*spoiler] TAG [/*spoiler].  Just remove the '*' from what I just typed, and then you'll have something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It's [*sblock] Info [/*sblock] (of course remove the *'s)


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## Jeremy (Aug 3, 2005)

I don't think 



Spoiler



that Jayne said Kaylee had lesbian tendancies, I think he said that she was wishing the Doctor was a gynecologist rather than a surgeon because he had picked up on the fact that she thought he was cute.  Then he follows it up with a comment about what gets her "lubed up" before Mal took an even harder line to correcting his manners.


 
Least that's what I remember, but we could be talking about different scenes.  I think Kaylie just finds Inara's world romantic because of the courtship and the pretty dresses and all the romance that Inara is trained to put into her work.  That and she enjoys spending time doing girly-girl things with her when she isn't doing greasemonkey things or taking orders.

At least that's my take on it.

And the show is brilliant and entertainment gold, but neither it nor anything else will survive the high expectations that can be imagined by listening to anyone else's view.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Aug 3, 2005)

Jeremy said:
			
		

> And the show is brilliant and entertainment gold, but neither it nor anything else will survive the high expectations that can be imagined by listening to anyone else's view.




I think that is true.  I've been told by so many fans how amazingly great it is that anything less than the greatest piece of entertainment ever is going to fall short.


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## Hijinks (Aug 3, 2005)

I believe what Jayne says is along the lines of "If Kaylee were a doctor, she would be a gynecologist."  Then everyone looks at him completely shocked.  I don't think they would have looked at him like that if he had just said she thought he was cute.

Anyone have the DVD's that can verify?  It's the scene where they're all eating dinner for the first time, I believe.


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## stevelabny (Aug 3, 2005)

hijinks, youre reading way too much into it.

jayne says "little kaylee here is wishing you were a gynecologist" to the doctor, cuz jayne immediately picked up on the fact that kaylee was crushing on the doctor.

which is why he also makes the even cruder "lubed up" comment.


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## Hijinks (Aug 3, 2005)

Ok if you just went and watched a DVD and verified that that's what he said, I'll take your word for it; I misremembered.  *shrug*  I still think she's bi, from her interactions with Inara.


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## John Crichton (Aug 3, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Ok if you just went and watched a DVD and verified that that's what he said, I'll take your word for it; I misremembered.  *shrug*  I still think she's bi, from her interactions with Inara.



 I can verify this.  I've seen all the eps many times (in the teens).  That line is in direct reference to her crush on the doc.

I'll also agree that I don't think she has lesbian tendencies.  She and Inara have a very sisterly/familial relationship.  I'd call it mother/daughter almost but it's more like sisters.  And like Jeremy says, Kaylee really has very romantic thoughts towards the way Inara lives her life.  Thinks it's glamorous and all.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 3, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I think that is true.  I've been told by so many fans how amazingly great it is that anything less than the greatest piece of entertainment ever is going to fall short.



I think this is a good summary of the way I feel.  I don't think it's _bad_, but it's falling short of how good the fans made it out to be.


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## barsoomcore (Aug 3, 2005)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> It always annoys me when people say "Keep watching this show.  You'll start liking it, I promise."



Keep watching this show. You'll start liking it, I promise.



Evidently we have the same friend, as my experience with _Neon Genesis_ was exactly the same as yours.


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## WayneLigon (Aug 3, 2005)

Westgate Polks said:
			
		

> ...in that the Alliance (the winners, the group trying to maintain cohesion) is portrayed as the 'bad guy' while the Brown Coats (the losers, the sepratists) are portrayed as freedom fighters seeking their own place in the world. *Not only does that decision stand much conventional teaching about the civil war on end*, it also places the shows point of view such that we get a different perspective.




Maybe in your neck of the woods  Mal's little 'We shall rise again' in the train job is one of his best quotes


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## haakon1 (Aug 3, 2005)

To me, it depends on whether you like genre cross-over stuff or not.

I made a thread about that, but nobody came, so I'm thinking most people don't around here.  But there's definitely a (small?) audience for it.

Anyhow, I like "Briscoe County Junior" a lot, one of the lesser known products of the guys who made Army of Darkness, Xena, and now Spider-Man.  Briscoe made it through several seasons on TV.  Firefly is similar in being sci-fi Western cross-over, but the emphasis is on the sci-fi now, instead of the horses and six-shooters with the occassional rocket or alien artifact.

To me, a lot of great "fantasy" is genre cross-over, it's just not obvious about it.  My favorite movie steals bits directly from a samurai pic ("The Hidden Fortress"), a western ("The Searchers"), and a British WWII bomber movie with lines like "stay on target, almost there".  And that's just the scenes I recognized as image for image/word for word copies.  I'm not even mentioning the generic "rip offs" from Greek myth, Arthurian legend, 30's pulp stories and serial adventure movies, etc.  Most people would say it's a sci fi movie 'cause it's technically set in space . . .


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## haakon1 (Aug 3, 2005)

Westgate Polks said:
			
		

> The parallels between the War of Unification in the series and the American Civil War also interest me, in that the Alliance (the winners, the group trying to maintain cohesion) is portrayed as the 'bad guy' while the Brown Coats (the losers, the sepratists) are portrayed as freedom fighters seeking their own place in the world.  Not only does that decision stand much conventional teaching about the civil war on end, it also places the shows point of view such that we get a different perspective.




The South are the good guys more often than not in the Western genre ("The Searchers" and "Outlaw Josie Wales" being two of the best with haunted ex-Confederate cavalary men on the frontier as the hero).

There's a historical basis for it.  For example, Jesse James was a Confederate guerrilla in Missouri, before going ronin and becoming a pure outlaw, preying on the Union's interests (banks and railroads) even after the war, to line his own pocket.  There's a fine-line between a bushwhacking guerrilla and bushwhacking outlaw.

And of course the Eastern banker -- a Yankee Republican from NY or Boston -- is the stereotypical villain in Westerns.


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## takyris (Aug 4, 2005)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> Anyhow, I like "Briscoe County Junior" a lot, one of the lesser known products of the guys who made Army of Darkness, Xena, and now Spider-Man.  Briscoe made it through several seasons on TV.  Firefly is similar in being sci-fi Western cross-over, but the emphasis is on the sci-fi now, instead of the horses and six-shooters with the occassional rocket or alien artifact.




If I recall correctly, it was "The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr." (no "e", despite the name of the actual county), and it only lasted one season. One big, expensive, ratings-dud of a season, for all its wonderful writing.

Gone, but not forgotten.


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## Renton (Aug 4, 2005)

(spoil)


Spoiler



"'Dear Diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. We got kidnapped by hill folk and it was the best day ever!'"


  

That's one of my favorite scenes.  Still laugh out loud funny!


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## John Crichton (Aug 4, 2005)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> To me, a lot of great "fantasy" is genre cross-over, it's just not obvious about it. My favorite movie steals bits directly from a samurai pic ("The Hidden Fortress"), a western ("The Searchers"), and a British WWII bomber movie with lines like "stay on target, almost there". And that's just the scenes I recognized as image for image/word for word copies. I'm not even mentioning the generic "rip offs" from Greek myth, Arthurian legend, 30's pulp stories and serial adventure movies, etc. Most people would say it's a sci fi movie 'cause it's technically set in space . . .



Ya know, I was gonna say something about Star Wars being a cross-over and being the ultimate space-fantasy (aint' really sci-fi, ain't really fantasy) but you already did it.


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## John Crichton (Aug 4, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, it was "The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr." (no "e", despite the name of the actual county), and it only lasted one season. One big, expensive, ratings-dud of a season, for all its wonderful writing.
> 
> Gone, but not forgotten.



That show was just flat out odd.  I only watched it for Bruce Campbell.  I'll have to go back and see if I like it anymore now than I did back when...


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## haakon1 (Aug 5, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, it was "The Adventures of Brisco County, Jr." (no "e", despite the name of the actual county), and it only lasted one season. One big, expensive, ratings-dud of a season, for all its wonderful writing.
> 
> Gone, but not forgotten.




Surely it was at least two seasons . . . IMDB says 1993-1994, so that's more like "at most" two.

You're definitely write about the spelling, though!


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## mhacdebhandia (Aug 5, 2005)

American television seasons don't start at the beginning of the year, though, do they?


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## Fast Learner (Aug 5, 2005)

Nope, not usually. The standard season, certainly during that time period, is fall through spring. Just one season, in this case, 27 episodes from August '93 to May '94, as can be seen in this episode guide.


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## glass (Aug 5, 2005)

Funily enough, I saw the first episode last night (one of the guys couldn't turn up for are usual game, so another of the guys brought some DVDs round).

I really enjoyed it. I particularly like that
It was silent in space
Spacecraft don't always fly the same way up
The girl who plays Kaylee is gorgeous

Also, a lot of space opera shows have had the western in space idea, Firefly really runs with it, even down to the hats!


glass.


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## glass (Aug 5, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> I must be the only person who enjoyed Alien Resurrection. Aside from the climax (I cringe at the physics of sucking something to bits with vacuum), I had no complaints. It's a solid, tongue-in-cheek action movie.




Ditto me on both counts. I'd love to see a Phil Plait Bad Astronomy review of it.


glass.


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## glass (Aug 5, 2005)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> I had never seen Firefly on tv, and bought the DVD just because I could.  The first few episodes didn't do anything for me, but I started getting into it after 4 or 5 episodes, and now I'm really looking forward to the movie.  It starts off slow, but gets better as it builds complexity and we find more out about River (and the episode where
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The OP was specifically asking about it from the perspective of having seen the only pilot, and it's apparently showing on US TV again so presumably quite a few other people were in the same position (and coincidentally so was I, via the DVDs). So, any chance of spoiler tags if you are going to give away events in future episode, eh?


glass.


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## BryonD (Aug 5, 2005)

Saw "Our Mrs. Reynolds" today.
That one was really good.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 6, 2005)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> From a DM's point of view, this show is a wonderful example of how to plot a rat bastardy game, and how to plot a good caper.



Heh. My wife went to see her folks this past week to celebrate her mom's birthday, and in the process got her folks hooked on Firefly. During their re-watching of the pilot, she caught something none of us had noticed before: the Alliance's ship is called the _Dortmunder_.

Joss does indeed know from good capers. 

Also, someone mentioned how they really, really disliked Jayne.  I can sympathize:  the first time I watched the series through (on Fox), I hated Jayne too.

But on the second watching, Jayne somehow transformed into my favorite character on the show.  Sure, he's awful; sure, he's crude and sadistic and self-centered and stupid.  But he's an absolutely compelling character, and he makes me laugh more than any other character on the show.  'Sides, anyone wears that hat, you know they ain't afraid of _nobody_.

Daniel


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## Klaus (Aug 6, 2005)

Enlighten me on "Dortmunder", please. That one just went WOOSH over me.


I've found that Malcolm Reynolds and Sawyer (from Lost) have the two coolest speaking patterns I can think of! I can only imagine those two together!

"What's wrong, sweet cheecks?"
"I aim to misbehave."


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## Fast Learner (Aug 6, 2005)

Dortmunder: Google told me so.

(I had no idea, either.)


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## Nellisir (Aug 6, 2005)

glass said:
			
		

> The OP was specifically asking about it from the perspective of having seen the only pilot, and it's apparently showing on US TV again so presumably quite a few other people were in the same position (and coincidentally so was I, via the DVDs). So, any chance of spoiler tags if you are going to give away events in future episode, eh?




Sorry. I thought the title of the episode 



Spoiler



("Our Mrs Reynolds")


 gave that much away.


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## Pielorinho (Aug 6, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Dortmunder: Google told me so.



Awhile ago someone on these boards--I think it was *Piratecat*--mentioned the Dortmunder novels in a thread about funny books.  I followed up the suggestion, and am glad I did.  Dortmunder novels range from the mildly funny to the absolutely hilarious.  My two favorites are _Don't Ask_ and _What's the Worst That Could Happen?_ 

Dortmunder specializes in immensely complex capers that would work perfectly were it not for his terrible luck and the idiocy of his partners-in-crime.  If I recall correctly, the crew of Serenity are engaging in a caper that would work perfectly if it were not for the terrible luck of an Alliance cruiser showing up.  The cruiser's name of _Dortmunder_ was a nice little tip of the hat.

Daniel


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## Welverin (Aug 6, 2005)

Shadowdancer said:
			
		

> For those who are watching the series on Sci Fi, or watching the DVD set in order, I encourage you to stick with it. The episodes will improve as the series progresses.




This needs to be repeated, so stick with it for a bit longer at least.

When it was originally on tv I wasn't too into it myself and only stuck with it out of habit and the fact it was after something else I was into. By the time it was canceled I liked it enough to be disappointed and want it on dvd, after I got the dvd's and watched al of the episodes in order I became a real fan.



			
				KaosDevice said:
			
		

> Just as an aside is anyone picking up the three issue comic series that is supposed to fill in the gap between the series and the movie? I understand the first one is out.




Issue two was supposed to be out this week as well.



			
				KaosDevice said:
			
		

> I think it is just a three issue job.




That it is, with the third issue coming out just before the movie is officially released at teh end of next month, convient that.


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## Richards (Aug 7, 2005)

Yep, issues one and two (of three) are already out.  They've done a really good job with them.

Johnathan


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## glass (Aug 9, 2005)

Nellisir said:
			
		

> Sorry. I thought the title of the episode
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough, perhaps I overreacted a little in this case (I didn't know what the episode was called, as I'd deliberately not looked at the booklet which came with the DVD). It's just living in the UK and so always being a bit behind with US TV series, I'm a little sensitive about it.


glass.


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