# Wu Jen spells... kinda.... suck?



## UltimaGabe (Nov 26, 2004)

Hey, everyone. I'm playing a Wu Jen in an upcoming campaign, and, over the last few days, I've been looking over the Wu Jen spells a lot. And the conclusion I've come to, for the majorty of the Wu Jen-only spells, is that... well... they kinda suck. I mean, they sound cool and all, but the majority of them do far too little for their level, and can easily be duplicated (to greater effect) with a lower-level spell.

Take, for example, Cloud Chariot.

Cloud Chariot is a 7th-level Wu Jen [Water] spell that, for 10 minutes (10 minutes, not 10 minutes/level), creates a chariot of clouds that people can ride on that can go as fast as 10 miles a minute. Alright, that's neat, it goes pretty fast, alright. But it can only go 100 miles maximum, and in almost every case a Teleport spell would be better. I mean, there are definitely situations where it could be incredibly useful (such as chasing a fast enemy), but is it really worth being a 7th-level spell? After all, that's the level of Limited Wish and Greater Teleport. 7th-level?

Also, let's look at Rain of Needles.

Rain of Needles is a 2nd-level Wu Jen [Metal] spell that, at maximum, can do 20 points of damage to a SINGLE target, no save. If you cause it to affect two targets, that's 10 points of damage each, four targets get 5 points each, and so on. And that's the MAXIMUM it can do, at 5th-level. It even requires a Ranged Attack roll against each target. Then, look at Hail of Stone- a 1st-level spell that has the same damage cap (5d4), except that it affects everyone in a 5-foot radius, doesn't require an attack roll, and doesn't need a save- so, at maximum, it could do 20 points of damage to FOUR people. True, it has a 5-gp material component as a balancing factor, but it's a FULL LEVEL below Rain of Needles. What gives?

Also, one error I noticed in the Wall of Bones spell is that, according to the spell, a creature can attempt to make a Strength check to break through the wall, with a DC of 15 + 2 per caster level, maximum +10- meaning that you get the maximum effect once you've reached 5th level. Well, it's a 4th-level spell, meaning you can't even cast it until you're 7th level. Is the cap supposed to be higher? Is it supposed to be +1 per level instead of +2 per level?

Oh, and Protection from Charm (Wu Jen 2) doesn't seem useful to me at all. It grants the recipient a resistance bonus of +1 per three caster levels (maximum +5) against any Will save against a Charm of Compulsion spell or effect. That, in and of itself, isn't very good (considering that it's a resistance bonus, which every PC is going to have by the time it's useful, as well as the fact that it only goes to one save). But the worst part? It's only a round/level! So, for a 2nd-level spell, you get a bonus to one save that probably won't stack with what you already have, and the only time you'll be able to cast it is when you know someone's about to cast a Charm or Compulsion spell on you. What the heck?

And another thing. Internal Fire (9th-level Wu Jen [Fire] spell) sounds great- it's a Save-or-Die spell that, if the target makes their save, they take 6d6 fire damage. Well, the problem with it, of course, is that it can only affect 1HD/level of creatures. So you could either use it to take out one big thing (which will be useless, considering that the majority of creatures you'll be fighting by the time you're able to cast 9th-level spells will either A. be immune to fire, or B. have more Hit Dice than you. You could always try and kill two smaller creatures with it, but they'd have to be pretty low-HD monsters in order to affect them. I mean, it's a good spell (considering it's an instant kill without being a death effect), but it's 9th-level for crying out loud! Decapitating Scarf is an instant kill without being a death effect as well, but it doesn't have the HD cap, and it's 7th-level.

The Wu Jen is a cool class, and I really like the flavor of a lot of their spells, they just suck. Is this intentional? (I.e., were they like this in the Oriental Adventures setting?) Does anyone know if there's any erratta on any of these spells, or does anyone have any suggestions for making their spells... well... less sucky?

Any help would be most appreciated.


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## fafhrd (Nov 26, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> Cloud Chariot is a 7th-level Wu Jen [Water] spell that, for 10 minutes (10 minutes, not 10 minutes/level), creates a chariot of clouds that people can ride on that can go as fast as 10 miles a minute. Alright, that's neat, it goes pretty fast, alright. But it can only go 10 miles maximum, and in almost every case a Teleport spell would be better. I mean, there are definitely situations where it could be incredibly useful (such as chasing a fast enemy), but is it really worth being a 7th-level spell? After all, that's the level of Limited Wish and Greater Teleport. 7th-level?




I didn't read the entirety of your post, but Cloud Chariot is capable of moving you 100 miles per hop(10 miles x 10 minutes).  Still weak compared to teleport but hey, enjoy the flavor.


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## UltimaGabe (Nov 26, 2004)

fafhrd said:
			
		

> I didn't read the entirety of your post, but Cloud Chariot is capable of moving you 100 miles per hop(10 miles x 10 minutes).  Still weak compared to teleport but hey, enjoy the flavor.




Yes, that was my entire point. It takes longer than Teleport, has shorter range than teleport, and it's two levels higher than teleport (and the same level as Greater Teleport). I understand that there's a situation or two where it could possibly be useful, but it's not worth a 7th-level slot in any case.


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## fafhrd (Nov 26, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> Yes, that was my entire point. It takes longer than Teleport, has shorter range than teleport, and it's two levels higher than teleport (and the same level as Greater Teleport). I understand that there's a situation or two where it could possibly be useful, but it's not worth a 7th-level slot in any case.




Sorry for the confusion.  In your initial post you said it went "10 miles maximum".  I guess you were referring to speed(per hour) rather than total distance.  

As to your claim that the spells, on the balance, suck...well there are a number of people who feel wizards got the shaft by the lack of inclusion in a large part of the Wu Jen list.  I find arguments that go "x is better then y" and "no y is better than x" to be a simple indicator or gross balance.  The perceived imbalance may be resulting from a difference class focus.  

A concurrent thread notes clerics get plane shift a good bit earlier than wiz/sorcs, despite the fact that wizard's access to teleport gives them the title in terms of transport utility.  Wu Jens (and I'm not speaking from an authoritative position here.  I'm one of those bitter about Wu Jen eating into my precious CA and haven't reviewed the full spell lists.) may have to pay more for transport in return for, say nifty things like Giant size.


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## UltimaGabe (Nov 26, 2004)

fafhrd said:
			
		

> Sorry for the confusion.  In your initial post you said it went "10 miles maximum".  I guess you were referring to speed(per hour) rather than total distance.




Sorry, my mistake. I made a typo- I meant to type "100 miles", not "10 miles".



> Wu Jens [snip] may have to pay more for transport in return for, say nifty things like Giant size.




You see, but THAT'S the thing- it's not like they're limited to Cloud Chariot. They STILL GET TELEPORT! I'm not saying that Wizards get good spells and Wu Jen get bad spells- they BOTH get good spells, but Wu Jen get a bunch of bad spells tossed on top of it. And the only thing that bothers me is that these bad spells are HIGHER LEVELS than the good spells that they ALREADY HAVE. Cloud Chariot sucks in comparison to Teleport, which Wu Jen also get, and Rain of Needles sucks in comparison to Hail of Stone, which Wu Jen get. And Internal Fire, in my opinion, isn't as good as Decapitating Scarf. THAT'S my point- some of the higher-level Wu Jen spells are worse than lower-level Wu Jen spells.


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## fafhrd (Nov 26, 2004)

I just broke out the book, looked at the examples you listed and am largely forced to agree.  I'd think the class was an afterthought if it didn't take up so much material.  The Cloud Chariot and Internal fire(especially with the 1 round casting time, blech) comparisons are pretty much inexcusable.  The only thing Rain of Needles has going for it is it doesn't require the "costly" component.


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## Silveras (Nov 27, 2004)

There is an errata document for the original Oriental Adventures versions of many of these spells. There is also an alternative 3.5 update of the original material in a Dragon Magazine issue some time back (try around 318) by the author of OA. 

I have e-mailed some questions on some spells to WotC customer service, because it looks like they used the original un-corrected OA text for the source of some spells.


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## Testament (Nov 27, 2004)

I think the Cut 'n' Paste goblins attacked that book.  That's why there's so many unerrataed OA style Wu Jen spells.


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## Stone Angel (Nov 28, 2004)

But they get the cool scarf spell. Not stopping that thing. But I totally understand your point. 


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Jalkain (Nov 28, 2004)

There's something of a tradition when it comes to wu jen and weaker spells, going back all the way to 1st Ed.  Originally, I think that OA was envisioned as being a slightly lower-magic setting compared to the Occidental setting.

I remember playing a 1st Ed wu jen in an Occidental campaign, and I really had to avoid too much focus on direct combat spells, because many of them were simply inferior versions of core PHB spells.  Rain of Fire and Drowsy Insects were flavourful but weak versions of Fireball and Sleep respectively, with the originals not being on the wu jen spell list (in fact, the ineffectiveness of my Rain of Fire castings became a running joke in the campaign).  In 3.x versions of the class, some more wizard spells have become available, so things have improved if anything.  However, many of the spells are conversions from the old wu jen spell list, often retained at the original spell level they had in 1st Ed.  As a result you get this inconsistency you mention.

That said, there's loads of flavour with some of these spells, and I remember coming up with some great combos (like casting Metal Skin on an opponent, followed by Magnetism on a nearby large object).  And I think that Cloud Chariot is a must have for any 'Monkey' fans out there!


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## Jalkain (Nov 28, 2004)

On a related note, how does Elemental Mastery work for the new wu jen?  Do you have to learn all the relevant spells (ones listed as All, plus your chosen element) to get the bonuses (as for 1st Ed), or do you simply select a element and then get bonuses automatically for those spells?


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## Stormrunner (Nov 28, 2004)

The latter - at 6th level you pick an element and from then on you get bonuses with spells of that element.  The old way required a lot of nitpicky bookkeeping, plus if the DM introduced, say, a new Earth spell, suddenly your Master of Earth was no longer a Master until he learned the new spell.

And under 3.0 Cloud Chariot was 8th level (!) - just as it was (under the name Cloud Trapeze) in 1rst Ed. OA.  Of course, in 1.0 wu jen did not get Teleport or Teleport Without Error.

As far as wu jen "taking up a lot of space" - well, WotC obviously has decided that there will be one Oriental base class per 3.0 splatbook, and where else would you put the wu jen but in Complete Arcane?  And if you're going to include the wu jen you have to include their highly idiosyncratic spell list - it's a major part of the "flavor" of the class.

"My wizard can't cast all these wu jen spells!"  Yep, and a cleric can't cast all druid spells, either.  The different spell list is one of the things that make the classes distinct from each other.


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## ARandomGod (Nov 28, 2004)

I haven't read about the wu jen at all, so my comment is based stricktly on what I've read here



			
				Stormrunner said:
			
		

> "My wizard can't cast all these wu jen spells!"  Yep, and a cleric can't cast all druid spells, either.  The different spell list is one of the things that make the classes distinct from each other.




Yea, but as a cleric I can think of some druidic spells I would LIKE to cast!


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## Aeric (Nov 28, 2004)

Have you looked at Complete Arcane?  There's a whole lot of Wu Jen spells in there, and a lot of them look pretty darn powerful.


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## Saeviomagy (Nov 29, 2004)

Stormrunner said:
			
		

> "My wizard can't cast all these wu jen spells!"  Yep, and a cleric can't cast all druid spells, either.  The different spell list is one of the things that make the classes distinct from each other.



I think the bigger complaint is

"My complete arcane, the book supposed to be benefiting wizards, has 1/3rd of the spells in it devoted to wujens. And half of those spells are crap versions of other spells that wujens already get. And the wujen is a lame-ass minor-flavour adjustment of a wizard."

That's the complaint. 1/3rd of the spells being only available to a class that most people will never use is terrible. Compare it to, say, complete divine or complete warrior, where the introduced core classes had virtually zero spells in the list devoted to them.

The simple act of allowing existing arcane casters to use most of the wujen spells would have eliminated all the complaints.


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## UltimaGabe (Nov 29, 2004)

Aeric said:
			
		

> Have you looked at Complete Arcane?  There's a whole lot of Wu Jen spells in there, and a lot of them look pretty darn powerful.




That's the clincher, however. A lot of them LOOK powerful. Upon further inspection, however, they're not as powerful as some lower-level Wu Jen spells, as I have stated above.

P.S.- wanna hear something weird? As I post this topic, the site is telling me that there are 666 users online right not.


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## Silveras (Nov 29, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> I think the bigger complaint is
> 
> "My complete arcane, the book supposed to be benefiting wizards, has 1/3rd of the spells in it devoted to wujens. And half of those spells are crap versions of other spells that wujens already get. And the wujen is a lame-ass minor-flavour adjustment of a wizard."
> 
> ...




Uhm... Complete Warrior is not a good example. It added, what, 5-6 spells, and the Hexblade (a new base class in the book) got access to all of them ?

Complete Divine also introduced the Shugenja (or re-introduced, if you had Oriental Adventures). Of course, the Shugenja is also a poor example, because .. uh... according to the spells in Complete Divine, the Shugenja does not get *any* of them. Especially since, if there is a discrepancy between the Spell List and the actual Spell entry, the spell entry "is more authoritative". Hmm.. I missed that, among the 80 or so e-mails I sent of errata items to Wizards. Time for #81, I guess.


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## billd91 (Nov 29, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> Take, for example, Cloud Chariot.
> 
> Cloud Chariot is a 7th-level Wu Jen [Water] spell that, for 10 minutes (10 minutes, not 10 minutes/level), creates a chariot of clouds that people can ride on that can go as fast as 10 miles a minute. Alright, that's neat, it goes pretty fast, alright. But it can only go 100 miles maximum, and in almost every case a Teleport spell would be better. I mean, there are definitely situations where it could be incredibly useful (such as chasing a fast enemy), but is it really worth being a 7th-level spell? After all, that's the level of Limited Wish and Greater Teleport. 7th-level?
> 
> ...





Well, in the case of the comparison between Rain of needles and Hail of stone, in another thread, I brought up the fact that Rain of Needles is a selective-target spell. Friends in the area of effect need not fear the wu jen casting Rain of Needles. They would be affected if he cast Hail of Stone. That may be worth considering. Also, the original Hail of Stone in the OA book did 1d3/level to max 5d3 and not d4. But even with an upgrade of dice, keep in mind the selectivity of the spell's targeting.

As far as Cloud Chariot goes, it may be shorter in range than teleport (even greater teleport) but it isn't subject to dimensional anchor's interference, nor any other dimensional travel barriers. You also are able to see the intervening travel, which might be worth something from time to time.

Protection from Charm could be very handy when you have to fight a known charmer/compulsion user. But I agree that its duration, like too many 3.5 edition spells, is too short and oriented around being balanced in combat alone and not other sorts of situations. I consider that a general flaw in 3.5 D&D's spell design.

The original Wall of Bones in OA did not have a cap on the strength check that I'm aware of. It was +2 per level and that was that.


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## iksander (Nov 29, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> That's the clincher, however. A lot of them LOOK powerful. Upon further inspection, however, they're not as powerful as some lower-level Wu Jen spells, as I have stated above.
> 
> P.S.- wanna hear something weird? As I post this topic, the site is telling me that there are 666 users online right not.



 Their is one wujen spell that made have a wtf moment...Decapitating scarf.  

Its seventh level and is a ranged attack.  Which isn't good but true strike can cancel that pain.  The range is close, the spell has no SR and a fort partial.  So everything is cool.  Not spectacular... but if the spell hits, it instantly removes the head and the fort save will let you take a d4 per level instead of being instantly beheaded.


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## UltimaGabe (Nov 29, 2004)

billd91 said:
			
		

> As far as Cloud Chariot goes, it may be shorter in range than teleport (even greater teleport) but it isn't subject to dimensional anchor's interference, nor any other dimensional travel barriers. You also are able to see the intervening travel, which might be worth something from time to time.




Yes, it may be worth something from time to time. But will the possibility of maybe having a spell be useful be worth a 7th-level spell slot? As I've stated, Clou Chariot CAN have its uses- but NONE of those uses are worth using a 7th-level slot.



			
				iksander said:
			
		

> Their is one wujen spell that made have a wtf moment...Decapitating scarf.
> 
> Its seventh level and is a ranged attack.  Which isn't good but true strike can cancel that pain.  The range is close, the spell has no SR and a fort partial.  So everything is cool.  Not spectacular... but if the spell hits, it instantly removes the head and the fort save will let you take a d4 per level instead of being instantly beheaded.




What's wrong with Decapitating scarf? It's a 7th-level spell- the same as Finger of Death- and the only differences between the two are that A. Decapitating Scarf ignores SR, B. Decapitating Scarf requires an attack roll (and considering the Wu Jen's BAB, that's not going to be easy without True Strike, which ends up costing two spell slots as well as two turns- as well as having to be within close range), and C. Decapitating Scarf does slightly more damage if you make the save. It's a powerful spell, but not too much more powerful than Finger of Death.


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## Jalkain (Nov 29, 2004)

Stormrunner said:
			
		

> The latter - at 6th level you pick an element and from then on you get bonuses with spells of that element.  The old way required a lot of nitpicky bookkeeping, plus if the DM introduced, say, a new Earth spell, suddenly your Master of Earth was no longer a Master until he learned the new spell.




That's good to hear.  The old system could be really frustrating at times.  It took me an age to get hold of the Fire Shuriken spell to complete my collection, and almost as soon as I got it, I levelled up, and lost my mastery again!


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## Felix (Nov 29, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> "My complete arcane, the book supposed to be benefiting wizards... *snip*



And I think that right there is the flaw in the complaint. Complete Arcane is not "A Player's Guide to Wizards and Sorcerers" like Tome and Blood was; Complete Arcane is a "Player's Guide to Arcane Magic for all Classes". And it does that job very well. Pretty much every PC can find something in there for them if they want a little arcanism in their blood.

And in a book that provides arcane magic to all classes, 2/3ds of the spells "for all classes" are focused on two classes... Sor/Wiz. That is reasonable in my opinion because this is not a class book. It's a theme book. Wu Jens are a theme of arcane magic, and this is the only time for them to recieve any official material support in the forseeable future. So they made Wu Jens unique by crafting a unique spell list, which was helped by an influx of new spells. 

Frankly I'm glad they have 1/3 of all the new spells, otherwise I'd think they were just a reorginization of the Sor/Wiz spell list. _That_ would suck.


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## Shard O'Glase (Nov 29, 2004)

For long distance transport yes cloud charriot sucks.  For the hands down best combat movement spell in the game it rocks.  Not sure its 7th level material but its close.  The other spells well your right they aren't up to snuff.

Also part of the problem with the spells being divided as they are is that too many of the spells are dead on what another class should have and yet for some reason are wu-jen only.  If I look at a spell and say oh heck yeah I'd let someone research that spell it fits the same flavor as your class, it hits the mechainics right etc.  Then it should be on their list when it comes out in a book.  Wu-jen only on many of these spells made little to no sense.  It in no way makes the spells seem more flavorful or flesh out the wu-jen class out more to make these exclusive spells.  Wu-jen get more than enough uniqeness out of their list since while its primarily wiz/sor it also gets some druidlike spells


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## Saeviomagy (Nov 29, 2004)

Felix said:
			
		

> And I think that right there is the flaw in the complaint. Complete Arcane is not "A Player's Guide to Wizards and Sorcerers" like Tome and Blood was; Complete Arcane is a "Player's Guide to Arcane Magic for all Classes". And it does that job very well. Pretty much every PC can find something in there for them if they want a little arcanism in their blood.



Except there seems to be very little to benefit those who aren't wizards, sorcerors, warlocks or wujens.  It was nice to see new hexblade stuff, and a couple of the spells are available to bards.

More are available to druids and clerics.

Personally I found that complete warrior gave a lot to everyone participating in combat. Complete divine gave bugger all to anyone who wasn't a cleric, druid or paladin but gave plenty to those who were.

I find complete arcane fails to have the broad appeal of complete warrior, and at the same time fails to give much to wizards, sorcerors or bards. Dedicating a whole 1/3rd of the spellist to a new, fairly pointless class is doubtless a big part of that.


> And in a book that provides arcane magic to all classes, 2/3ds of the spells "for all classes" are focused on two classes... Sor/Wiz. That is reasonable in my opinion because this is not a class book. It's a theme book. Wu Jens are a theme of arcane magic, and this is the only time for them to recieve any official material support in the forseeable future. So they made Wu Jens unique by crafting a unique spell list, which was helped by an influx of new spells.



IMHO, it still fails to make them unique, and has the added disadvantage of wasting 1/3rd of the spells section with a large quantity of redundant or pointless spells.

Spells which could otherwise have been ones which, while being cast by a wizard, sorceror or bard, could have benefited the party as a whole.


> Frankly I'm glad they have 1/3 of all the new spells, otherwise I'd think they were just a reorginization of the Sor/Wiz spell list. _That_ would suck.



They suck anyway. Really. The entire class could have been covered with 9 spells and some flavour text.


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## Ogrork the Mighty (Nov 30, 2004)

Or an article in Dragon magazine.


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## Felix (Nov 30, 2004)

> They suck anyway. Really. The entire class could have been covered with 9 spells and some flavour text.



So if it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well. That about right?


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