# Serious inquiries only please - 100th level adventure hook and module in development



## DM-Rocco (Jul 21, 2005)

Okay, first things first.  If you don't want to play a 100th level adventure and don't want to make a 100th level adventure fine with us, but then also please don't post here.  If you want to comment on how stupid the idea is or would really like to call us nuts, fine, go ahead, but not here.  

  Here are the links to the other 100th level threads, call us nuts there.  Complain about how you would only have dragons for coins and how the gods would be your slaves and how you would have to be drunk to play it and how you would never think of playing anything over level 5.  Post those comments on these threads please:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140656

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=139800

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140531

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140822

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=140567

That out of the way, all this nuttyness started when I wanted to convert H4 - The Throne of Bloodstone.  AA few suggested making something new, I like this idea.  I thinking there are others who would like to make such a thing, CRgreathouse and Turanil come to mind.

So, this thread is for those of us who are interested in making a 3.5 100th + module.  We may never play it, we may play it and like the wackyness, but it is something we would like to band together and create, so please, if you post here, please post something useful to our end.

Here are a few plot points I swiped from other threads:



			
				Turanil said:
			
		

> okay, I have found the plot:
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> ...




or



			
				Philip said:
			
		

> I think 100th lvl adventures should be weird and off-the-wall:
> 
> Unknown to the players the 100th lvl wizard with 70 Int has gone quite mad (there is only so much Int a humble Wis and Cha can handle) and has split up into multiple personalities who are battling each other across his own mindscape. Unknown to them the PCs are pulled into his mind and must battle the personalities across an ever-changing landscape.
> 
> Without warning the PCs are suddenly the only living creatures left in an utterly barren universe. They have to find out what happened. Perhaps one of them did it inadvertently or they have a traitor amongst them?




or



			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> I would think that you would want to go truly EPIC with the plot. You've got Faerun's deities statted out, so let's use those as allies and foes. Make the goal something truly amazing, like creating a new plane, altering the structure of the cosmos, taking over Sigil, or designing the next campaign world by overriding the gods and setting your PCs up as the new pantheon.
> 
> Even then, I think that sounds like 40 to 50th level characters. But I think it could be fun, if the players are willing to invest enough into the backstory and learn enough about the campaign setting to really understand the implications of all their choices. (What I mean by that: Bane is just another high-level mook if the players don't know anything about his history or mythic status. The players should really be jazzed about the thought of making deals with the elven pantheon to reunite with Lloth against the dwarven and orcish pantheons in a war that they have designed just so they can usurp their collective divine power and establish their own planar realms.)
> 
> ...




or



			
				Quickleaf said:
			
		

> *100th Level Plot Idea #1*
> So you've reached 100th level, have you? That annoying curse of Hectate prevents you from ascending to godhood, not to mention your spouse who'd _kill_ you if you ascended, leaving raising the children to them. Of course, you've known for the last couple years that your enemies children's children have been plotting against you. The fact that the bard cast an epic spell which causes them to be given punning names upon birth didn't smoothe any feathers. Your magic fortress co-exists in seven planes at once, and can disappear in a heartbeat. You have more tentacled horrors magically imprisoned within (er...technically they're in an alternate dimension) than you can remember. Was it Glurfoth or Zilagurt who sucked out your brains, not once but twice? You've settled to watching your children grow. Of course, whenever they want they can take the elf queen's elixir and cease aging, but not before they do their homework.
> 
> But life at the top ain't all peaches and cream. You became famous after saving the kingdom, but then it was the country, the world, the universe, and even the gods themselves from Zilagurt...or was it Glurfoth? Everyone cheered and rejoiced, storytellers began posting magical posters of you, kings would sit lower than you (except for that damned gnome who left your party to found Kirpah Nasmong), several national epics were written in your honor, and your party has been immortalized in every way. (If only you could come to a concensus on a party name!) And then everyone and their cousin, and their cousin's foreign horse started asking you for help, and autographs, and miracles. The wizard had to create an entire demi-town of modrons just to process all the requests.
> ...




As for guide lines, I think we need to set a umber of book to work with, Obviously, the 3.5 PHB, the DMI and the DMII, the MMI, MMII and MMIII and deities and Demi gods and the EPHB.  I think also the book of exhaulted deeds and the book of vile darkness and faiths and patheons from the forgotten realms.  But that should be it.  Here is also a lost of stuff from CRgreathouse from another thread:



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Here's a quick list of the CR 36 to 140 creatures I found, those possibly suitable for 40th or 100th level PCs:
> 
> CR 37
> CR 38
> ...




Also, as far as characters go, if you are wondering, here is the easiest way to create a 100th level straight character class character:



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=139800
> 
> The link above is the link to the thread where I am trying to convert the games only 100th level adventure, H4 - The Throne of Bloodstone. yes it is obsurd, yes it is silly and no, I don't think it is worth it, but I am at least going to make the four generic PCs and at least one or two encounters. Why, well, I still haven't figured that out
> 
> ...




I think everyone should make one 100th level generic character, by that I mean one class, just for testing.  We can make complicated characters with more than one class later, but in the interest of time and sanity, we should start with the basics.  I made this guy, but also have started a wizard.

As far as plots, I would like to keep thins out of the future with ray guys and pistols.  I like the time line thing, but I feel that can get very difficult very fast.  without delving too much into my imagination this close to bed time, I would write all night if I started, I think something like this:

  1)  You have conquered nations and have secluded yourself in your keep.  Everything must die, including you.  Age is the one power you can't defeat, or can you.  For all your vast power and wealth you have no choice but to find a way to become immortal or die of old age.  Your quest would then be to join the ranks of the Gods and become immortal, but they don't just let anyone join.

  2)  You have hidden your vast power from the Gods of the Realms in a very simple way, you were not there.  From the ages of the past in a time that exsisted before the current Gods took control of the patheon, you have broken the barrier of time and emerged in a world you did not create.  The Gods of the Realm, now that they can see you and your vast power, have banned together to take you down for through your demise, they can challenge Ao, if you live, they slowly die.

  3)  You are a Paranoid Schizophrenic with Multi Personalities.   A band of 100th level characters fights its way out of your brain and into the real world.  Whichever character wins the fight becomes your first level character in your DMs low magic low money game  

Anyway, what do you guys think?

About the plots, books, rules, etc.

Chime in so I know who really wants in on making this.


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## CRGreathouse (Jul 21, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Okay, first things first.  If you don't want to play a 100th level adventure and don't want to make a 100th level adventure fine with us, but then also please don't post here.  If you want to comment on how stupid the idea is or would really like to call us nuts, fine, go ahead, but not here.




Quick commnents:

First of all, you do need to be a little nuts to make a 100th-level campaign. 

I like Turanil's adventure idea.

I'll make a 100th-level paladin to complement your wizard; just give me some time.

I think the sources I mentioned in the the post you quoted should be allowed in addition to the sources you listed -- there aren't that many resources for super-high level games.  I may want ot use Legends of Avadnu, for example.


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## Crothian (Jul 21, 2005)

If you have the oppurtunity you may want to take a look at Black Company.  They have some seriously high (70th I think) level NPCs in there


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## Eolin (Jul 21, 2005)

Can you legally do Wiz 20/Sor 20/Cleric 20/Druids 20/Something Else 20 ?

And have access to basically all the spell lists?


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## CRGreathouse (Jul 21, 2005)

Eolin said:
			
		

> Can you legally do Wiz 20/Sor 20/Cleric 20/Druids 20/Something Else 20 ?
> 
> And have access to basically all the spell lists?




Sure, but the character would be pretty weak.


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## Quickleaf (Jul 21, 2005)

A thought about equipment. I would use the requisitioning equipment rules in combination with the d20 wealth rules (see link below for example). 
I mean, 100th level characters have access to an insane amount of magic, something I picture a Matrix-like interdimensional armory. They just reach into the interdimensional space with a thought/command word, and presto! I'd imagine that each item drawn from the armory would lower the overall availability for everyone else.

swrpgnetwork.com/files/PDF/articles/creditline20040105.pdf  

I would give the PCs a Wealth bonus of +40, that way they can acquire any magic item worth 35,000 gp or less without lowering the overall effectiveness of the armory. Speaking of which....

*The Ajah Armory*
Created under the working name of _recursive co-terminal multi-functional all terrain interdimensional closet of useful things_ by Mizledorf, the Patron Saint of Gnomes Everywhere, Founding Liege of Kirpah Nasmong- a Gnomish Utopia (Male Celestial Gnome/Bard 33, Illusionist 33, Tinker 33/N). One day Mizledorf realized the name was too long (everyone else would just tune him out when he started to say "recursive"), and he said "Ah hah!" with great triumph. However, his yiddish accent made it sound like "ajah!" And thus his culturally bankrupt allies dubbed the armory the Ajah. Convinced it was flawed, Mizledorf gave it to his friends (the 100th level party) as a gift, and set about improving its design. That's Mizledorf for you, one parts gnome, two parts perfectionist.

*How it works:* Once attuned to the Ajah, a character need only concentrate as a standard action and whatever piece of equipment they desire appears equipped on them. They make a requisition check: d20 + Concentration. The check is made against the purchasing DC of the requisitioned item. Items worth 35,000 gold or less (DC 40) have no effect on the Ajah. Items (or collective "purchases") worth more cause the Ajah's new wealth to decrease until said items are returned. The wealth loss for a single requisition equals = 1/3 (purchase DC - wealth bonus) rounded up. The Ajah has a base wealth bonus of 40.


Though the cheating death/quest for godhood sounds cool, I like my idea best!


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## Turanil (Jul 21, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I like Turanil's adventure idea.



Thanks!


> Hopefully CRgreathouse and Turanil will be in, will you?



I am in... Well, if it is about my idea. My idea is in fact really simple: a castle at the junction of several epochs and 4 dimensions, so it is an almost everchanging place of full weirdness. But then, you could put whatever you want in it, from demon-princes to slay to pet tarrasques and what not.

Later I will begin to add ideas of rooms.


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## Yair (Jul 21, 2005)

An interesting challenge. I'd be glad to work on something like that.

I see three major obstacles with this level.
1) Clearer PC & Monster Creation Guidelines: I agree the adventure should be for pregenerated PCs, there is just too much room and flexibility to design it for any 100th level party. But I personally need a better understanding of the PC & Monster creation guidelines: what sources are allowed (which should depend on the story!), can we use DMG & EPLH guidelines to create new magic items and epic spells, the cumulative effects of Int increases on skills, wizard spells known, use of PrCs, and so on. 
This is the problem most easily solved.

2) Plot: The plot need to be epic, yet it is a single-shot adventure with pregenerated PCs. This will make identifying with or even remembering the different factions and worlds very difficult. I think the best solution is to use the existing settings, already familiar to most players. I therefore recommend using the FR, as the most familiar setting, with the planes from the Manual of the Planes where appropriate. I usually don't like setting-tied adventures, but in this case I think it is essential for the plot to have emotional impact.
Another possibility is to play in "Mythic Earth", using tropes such as Hell, Heaven, angels, lucifer, the olympic gods, and so on - but I'm not sure how to mesh them all together in a useful manner.

I don't particularly like the idea of time-travel, especially when combined with a modern-like setting or technology; I like my adventures fantasy and prefer more traditional save-the-world plots. Some suggestions of my own:
* fighting off the gods to achieve mortal independence from divine meddeling, 
* battling a Cthulhu like invasion, 
* keeping the universe from slipping into nothingness as Vishnu awakens and the dream-reality we call existence fades away
* Preventing the gods/AO/someone from fundumentally changing or remaking the world. 
* Using the standard D&D mechanics to represent gods, making high-level PCs infused with divine might and mere mortals 1st or low-level character. The PCs play "gods" who have incarnated in the flesh to save the world from the apocalypse brought on by the evil god, which is already incaranted in the world and doing his evil thing. (Sort of like Middle-earth with the evil god morgoth and the mayar (IIRC)).

3) Game Breakdown: I have no idea how the gameplay is at such a high level, but I seriously doubt it will be good. The adventure needs to be playtested to make sure it's actually playable.
I think that this might be the hardest part of it all: how to create a *playable* adventure that is still challenging with no experience in such super-high-level gameplay.

I think we should amass plot suggestions, discuss them, and have a poll. In the meantime I'll try to churn up a level 100 character tonight.


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## Impeesa (Jul 21, 2005)

Steal the Burning Legion from Warcraft. They're an interplanar demonic horde that consumes whole worlds. They are attracted to exceptionally powerful sources of magic, like Azeroth (the world of Warcraft), or a party of 100th level PCs. The party could wipe out whole legions of the Legion at once, sure, but the higher-ups (with a bit of boosting - by the book stats Sargeras is only CR 73) would easily be a match for the PCs. The hard part, though, is preventing the invasion with a minimum of collateral damage, since even a party of 100th level PCs can't be everywhere at once. 

--Impeesa--


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## schporto (Jul 21, 2005)

Well a couple things I think are interesting:
1.  A Clr 100 can resurrect someone who has been dead 1000 years.  Maybe you need an ancient hero to unravel a mystery of who killed the uber lich to find its weakness?
2.  Take some hints from comic books.  The super groups often face some hefty battles.  Up the odds a bit.
3.  Somehow the characters must end the Blood War between Devils and Demons.
4.  The Devils and Demons have ended their war and have decided to attack the world.  And have enlisted dragons as mounts.  Extremely Anceint Powerful Dragons.
-cpd


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 21, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Quick commnents:
> 
> First of all, you do need to be a little nuts to make a 100th-level campaign.
> 
> ...




I just didn't want to allow everything, otherwise we will get bogged down in a lot of obscure books and rules that some of us might not have access too.  Really we could use anything, but I wanted to try and limit it a bit, just because not everyone has all the books ever produced.  

On second thought on items, I propose nothing over 50,000,000 million gold or +50 enhancment, whichever comes first.  I figure you can't have any item over +10 enhancment in pre epic, so for every to levels you can get another +10 and no more than a +25 in item enhancement and +25 in bonuses, like vorpal and such.  It is going to be nuts, but we should still have rule and limitations, everyone agree to that?   

As far as time for character creation, we can take a week or two to flesh out characters.  I still have to prepare for PnP next week and would like to do some writing and reading on other topics, so no problem on time.  How about we shoot for the first week in August for everyone who is interested to create a character?  Sound good?


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 21, 2005)

Eolin said:
			
		

> Can you legally do Wiz 20/Sor 20/Cleric 20/Druids 20/Something Else 20 ?
> 
> And have access to basically all the spell lists?




You could do a Wiz 20/Sor 20/Cleric 20/Druids 20/Psion 20 and you would get every spell/power ever made.



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Sure, but the character would be pretty weak.




I'm sure what CRgreathouse means is that, while he would be very versatile, he wopuld not have very good saves DCs for his spells.  You would miss out on about 20-30 epic bonus feats and you would have to divide your ability enhancments between three ability scores, INT, WIS, and CHA.  On the plus side your WIS counts towards two classes (Cleric and Druid) as does your INT (Psion and Wizard), but still, you would have greatly reduced DC saves compared to a straight up Cleric as an example.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 21, 2005)

Quickleaf said:
			
		

> A thought about equipment. I would use the requisitioning equipment rules in combination with the d20 wealth rules (see link below for example).
> I mean, 100th level characters have access to an insane amount of magic, something I picture a Matrix-like interdimensional armory. They just reach into the interdimensional space with a thought/command word, and presto! I'd imagine that each item drawn from the armory would lower the overall availability for everyone else.
> 
> swrpgnetwork.com/files/PDF/articles/creditline20040105.pdf
> ...




Okay, your nuts!? 

Welcome to the party


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 21, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> An interesting challenge. I'd be glad to work on something like that.
> 
> I see three major obstacles with this level.
> 1) Clearer PC & Monster Creation Guidelines: I agree the adventure should be for pregenerated PCs, there is just too much room and flexibility to design it for any 100th level party. But I personally need a better understanding of the PC & Monster creation guidelines: what sources are allowed (which should depend on the story!), can we use DMG & EPLH guidelines to create new magic items and epic spells, the cumulative effects of Int increases on skills, wizard spells known, use of PrCs, and so on.
> ...




I have address the books above, I know the first post was long, but its up there.  I too think the books have to be limited, too many and we will get bogged down.

I also don't like guns or future weapons, one reason why I never like Jopurny to Barrier Peaks, so let's please make it high fantasy.

I like Turanil's idea too, but I would like to discuss everyones ideas and get a general feel that everyone is comfortible with.  I hope that if we don't go with Turanil's idea that he will still want to help.  At anyrate, we can use everyone's ideas, whether in whole or in part.

Homework for everyone   make a 100th level character, straight class please, or do we want to vote on allowing one prestige class on your character too, and also come up with story and plot ideas and once we discuss them all, we will vote on them.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 21, 2005)

schporto said:
			
		

> Well a couple things I think are interesting:
> 1. A Clr 100 can resurrect someone who has been dead 1000 years. Maybe you need an ancient hero to unravel a mystery of who killed the uber lich to find its weakness?
> 2. Take some hints from comic books. The super groups often face some hefty battles. Up the odds a bit.
> 3. Somehow the characters must end the Blood War between Devils and Demons.
> ...




1.  I have a novel I am working on kinda like that, but I had begining Epic guys in mind  

2.  Galactus comes to mind, and not a hungry near death one either, something more like the 'I just devoured The Beyonder's power kinda thing  he, think of the beyonderer  

3. & 4.  I thought this would be fun too, either one.  Why, because you can fight uber demons and devils that that everyone would love to fight and kill.  You could start out ending the Blood War and the second half could be protecting the Prime Plane from invasion now that they have nothing to do.  Of course, without having to expend energy fighting the Blood War, all the demon lords have a surplus of energy, just enough to challenge say, a group of 100th level PCs.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 21, 2005)

Hey DM-Rocco! 



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> 2.  Galactus comes to mind, and not a hungry near death one either, something more like the 'I just devoured The Beyonder's power kinda thing  he, think of the beyonderer




Funny you mention it, I'll be putting stats for Galactus on my website over the weekend. 

Nuff said.


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## Upper_Krust (Jul 21, 2005)

Maybe I should have posted this here...

***

How about an adventure where the Phaerimm conquer your world and use an epic ritual to send it into the Far Realm where Pseudonatural Devastation Caterpillars start to cocoon it. The Players are drafted into a divine strike team brought together to reclaim the planet. 

However, first they must recruit the final member of the group, Sharkon, an intelligent animating sword once worshipped as a deity. A weapon which can cause the extinction of an entire race, if a paragon of said race is slain by the deadly weapon.

Sharkon resides in the Comet Citadel of the Elder God Damolh, whose frozen fortress is now policed by powerful star-metal constructs from the future, although some of the original guards, Xixecal, still wander the outer sanctums.

Sharkon has been imprisoned, imbedded within the carcass of the Elder God for eons, although after the fatal blow had been struck Sharkon found he was unable to extricate himself from the now corpse of his enemy. Over the millenia Sharkons delusions manifested themselves, haunting the inner sanctum in the shapes of undead of the long forgotten races whose existence were ended by the blade.

The team then must breach the borders of the Far Realm guarded by World Flayers and penetrate into the depths of madness to reach the Twisted Tower of the Phaerimm Overmind and with its destruction cause the extinction of the entire race. However the ruler of the Phaerimm, as his last act, summons an Infinitaur (apparently the twisted tower was one of the beasts horns).

The players must then destroy the cocoon around the planet. However, they then find the planet itself has become self aware, and whats worse, insane. Before they can finally unravel the ritual of the Phaerimm, they must confront and defeat the planets id. If they are too late, the planet may have already hatched into the unspeakable mind moth which then multiplies by its proximity to sentient creatures, so you soon face a swarm of the titanic lepidoptera.

***

Anyway, thats just off the top of my head, the idea probably needs some work to it.  

Prologue: Planet gets stolen by the Phaerimm.
Part 1: Free Sharkon from the Comet Citadel.
Part 2: Destroy the Phaerimm Overmind in the Twisted Tower.
Part 3: "Its alive, ALIVE!"

Epilogue: 

- Freeing Sharkon eventually causes the Elder God, to rejuvenate, a two-headed monstousity searching for its third head which is now a demilich. The keys to the Elder Gods ultimate destruction lies within the gems of this massive demilich, each of which is a demiplane housing a fragment of the artifact which can bring about the demise of the cosmic deity.


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## CRGreathouse (Jul 22, 2005)

I've expanded my pervious list to CR 34 to 210.

CR 34:
Galaxar (The Serge, Dicefreaks)
Young adult prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Phaethon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Diamond Weapon (Upper_Krust, promotional)
Emerald Weapon (Upper_Krust, promotional)
Ruby Weapon (Upper_Krust, promotional)
Sapphire Weapon (Upper_Krust, promotional)

CR 35:
Alassra Shentrantra Silverhand (Phaedros, dicefreaks)
Primal Air Elemental (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Primal Earth Elemental (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Primal Fire Elemental (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Primal Water Elemental (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Mature adult force dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Kelanen the Prince of Swords (Mirtek, Dicefreaks)
Iuz the Old (Crimson Hellkite, Dicefreaks)
Valkur the Mighty (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Red Knight, Lady of Strategy (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Baphomet (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Very young adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Very young mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Force sentinel (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 36:
Gwaeron Windstrom the Tracker Who Never Goes Astray (Bane, Dicefreaks)
Elminster Aumar (Phaedros, dicefreaks)
Xixecal (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Finder Wyvernspur  (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)

CR 37:
Old force dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Velsharoon, Archmage of Necromancy (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Suthh-T'lkd, Paragon of Chaos Beasts (Alratan, Dicefreaks)

CR 38:
Argonis the Storm King (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Cicatrix/Daemon Master of Scars (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Juvenile polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Young timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 39:
Adult prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Very old force dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Devastation Centipede (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Abbathor the Avaricious (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Falazure the Night Dragon (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Eldanoth, Demon Lord of Murder (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Khagnad the Assassin King (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Tamui the Child Goddess (modus0, Dicefreaks)

CR 40:
Savras the All-Seeing (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Ssendam (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Greater quintessence/void elemental (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 41:
Devastation Spider (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Rallaster the Razor God (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Hyperion, The Burning Dawn (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Sess’innek, Demon Prince of Lizard-Men (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Archwizard Larloch (Jaerom Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Erelyn, Mistress of Exquisite Pain (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Selenia the Lady of Plagues (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Young adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Young mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 42:
Devastation Scorpion (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Aasterinian the Messenger of Io (Deacon Dagamar, Dicefreaks)
Great Mother, Patron of Beholderkind (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Telamont Tanthul (Jaerom Darkwind, Dicefreaks)

CR 43:
Mature adult prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Ancient force dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Nobanion, Lord Firemane (Blaspemous, Dicefreaks)
Loviatar, Maiden of Pain (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Eldath the Green Goddess (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Belus (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Jaslanda, Goddess of Secrets (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Gragnash (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Sadim/Greedy One (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 44:
Sharess the Dancing Lady (Glabrezubane, Dicefreaks)
Garagos (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Epic Tarrasque (Upper_Krust, promotional)
Haradmal, Coin Forger (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Young adult polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Juvenile timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Diamond sentinel (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 45:
Vaprak the Devourer (Melanos, Dicefreaks)
Ilneval, Gruumsh's Right Hand (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Khurgorbaeyag the Overseer (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Syrul, The Forktongued (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Pyremius, the Blazing Killer (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Milil, Lord of Song (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Alassra Silverhand the Simbul (Jaerom Darkwind, Dicefreaks)

CR 46:
The Nether Brigade (Kaiser_Asmodeus, Dicefreaks)
Baghtru, the Leg Breaker (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Coeus, Terror of the Wild (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Yazgoth (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Lovam the Ice King (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Tamarack the Guiding Hand (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Syzygy/Brood Lord of Time (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 47:
Ilsensine, Overlord of the Illithid Hegemony (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Keptolo the Opportunist (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Astilabor the Hoardmistress  (Deacon Dagamar, Dicefreaks)
Talona, Lady of Poison (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Jergal, Lord of the End of Everything (Blaspemous, Dicefreaks)
Rahab the Demon Prince of the Lightless Depths (Filby, Dicefreaks)
Juiblex, Demon Prince of Ooze (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Kostchtchie, Demon Lord of The Ice Wastes (The Serge, Dicefreaks)
Lisantia (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Deneya, Mistress of the Winds (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Juvenile adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Juvenile mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 48:
Old prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Torm the True (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Orcus (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Elohim (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Mercury sentinel (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 49:
Nomog-Geaya, the Merciless (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)

CR 50:
Aluroon, Lord of Twilight (Aluroon, Dicefreaks)
Wyrm force dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Devastation Beetle (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Laduguer the Exile (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Vhaeraun, the Masked Lord (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Kiaransalee, the Lady of the Dead (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Garyx, Cleanser of Worlds (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Azuth the High One (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Anakim/Silent One (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Demogorgon (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Lord Kandis (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Kabiri/Demon Lord of Secrets (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Adult polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Young adult timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Ioun golem (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 51:
Akishra/Astral Worm (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 52:
The False General of Gehenna, Paragon Ultraloth (Kaiser_Asmodeus, Dicefreaks)
Very old prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Helm the Watcher (Bane, Dicefreaks)
Elder quintessence/void elemental (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 53:
Janus, Master of Thieves (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Rheese Khava (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Young adult adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Young adult mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 54:
Grolantor the Glutton (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Clangeddin Silverbeard, Lord of the Twin Axes (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Ares the Bloodstained (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Bhaal the Lord of Murder (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Kendra the Fire Maiden (modus0, Dicefreaks)

CR 55:
Memnor the Magnificent (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Chronepsis the Watcher (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Hephaestos, Smith of the Gods (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Eris, Bringer of Discord (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Yeenoghu, Demon Prince of Gnolls (The Serge, Dicefreaks)
Juiblex, Demon Prince of Ooze (The Serge, Dicefreaks)
Baphomet, Demon Prince of the Endless Maze (The Serge, Dicefreaks)
Illsensine (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Cindalla the Singing Lady  (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Chasm (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Erika the Festive Goddess (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Sorson (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Vrassune the Grand Smith (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Pholtus of the Light (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Dionysos, Lord of Revelry (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)

CR 56:
Bael the Warlord of Avernus (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Blibdoolpoolp, The Drowning Goddess (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Panzuriel, Whisperer of the Depths (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Erythnul, God of Slaughter (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Nidhogg, Gnawer of Yggdrasil (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Hel, Queen of the Wretched Dead (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Hecate, Queen of Night (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Lolth, Demon Queen of Spiders (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Apollo (mercucio, Dicefreaks)
Amineh the Battle Maiden (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Kestra the Forest Maiden (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Nyratal (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Odium/Kiss of Death (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Mature adult polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Adult timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 57:
Ancient prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Hecatoncheires (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Cronus, Lord of Mount Othrys (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)

CR 58:
Wee Jas the Witch Goddess (Dyson, Dicefreaks)
Mask, Master of All Thieves (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Cyric, Prince of Lies (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Vergadain the Merchant King (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)

CR 59:
Mammon the Arch-Duke of Minauros (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Great wyrm force dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Adult adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Adult mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 60:
Talos the Storm Lord (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Zuggytmoy, Demiurge of Parasites (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Graz’zt, Demon Prince of Shadows (The Serge, Dicefreaks)
Apollyon, Demon Prince of Destruction (The Serge, Dicefreaks)

CR 61:
Belial, Master of Pains and Suffering (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Wyrm prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Kurtulmak, the Gnomesmasher (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Hera, Queen of Olympus (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Tempus, Lord of Battles (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Lathander the Morninglord  (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Bane the Black Lord (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Chauntea the Grain Goddess (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)

CR 62:
Lilith the Countess of Malbolge (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Leviathan, Prince of Stygia (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Karontor, The Deformed One (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Nerull  the Reaper (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Incabulos, Lord of Pestilence (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Hades, Ruler of the Ebon Throne (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Tyr the Maimed God (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Selûne, the Moonmaiden (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Fraz Urb `Luu, Demiurge of Deception (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Aarasvon the Lord of Light (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Breanna the Festive Maiden (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Sune, Lady Firehair (Glabrezubane, Dicefreaks)
Malakim (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Old polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Mature adult timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 63:
Dispater the Arch-Duke of Dis (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Vecna, the Master of All That is Secret and Hidden (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Braal, Lord of Battles (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Jessa the Creation Scribe (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Ambre, Earthmother (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Merodach, Demon Prince of the Powers of Fire (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Gibborim/Mighty One (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 64:
Yondalla the Blessed One (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Garl Glittergold the Priceless Gem (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Zarus the First Man (Jaerom Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Xestomul/Advanced Black Slaad (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)

CR 65:
Beelzebub the Lord of Flies (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Gruumsh One-Eye (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Thrym, Lord of Frost Giants (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Thor, God of Thunder (PAOLO, Dicefreaks)
Pazuzu, Demiurge of Abyssal Air (The Serge, Dicefreaks)
Ariel Manx (Jaerom Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Mature adult adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Mature adult mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Orichalcum guardian (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 66:
Mephistopheles, Arch-Duke of Cania (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)
Great wyrm prismatic dragon (Wizards of the Coast, Epic Level Handbook)
Shar, Dark Goddess (TheBlackHandofBane, Dicefreaks)
Asmodeus (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Omega Weapon (Upper_Krust, promotional)
Maskim/Faceless One (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 67:
Corellon Larethian, Ruler of All Elves (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)
Moradin the Soul-Forger (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)

CR 68:
Zeus, Ruler of Olympus (Palindrome, Dicefreaks)
Very old polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Old timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 69:
Moria the Pale Maiden (modus0, Dicefreaks)

CR 70:
Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead (The Serge, Dicefreaks)

CR 71:
He Who Has No Name the God King (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Old adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Old mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 74:
Ancient polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Very old timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 75:
Diamond gargant (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Force gargant (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 76:
Amilictli/All-Relentless Thunders (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 77:
Very old adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Very old mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 78:
Demogorgon, The Prince of Demons (The Serge, Dicefreaks)

CR 80:
The Shadow (modus0, Dicefreaks)
Wyrm polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Ancient timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 81:
Asmodeus the Overlord of Hell (The Gates of Hell, Dicefreaks)

CR 83:
Ancient adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Ancient mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 85:
Pale Night, Demon Queen of Ravens (Darkwolf, Dicefreaks)
The Lady of Pain (Kain Darkwind, Dicefreaks)

CR 86:
Io (Jaerom Darkwind, Dicefreaks)
Great wyrm polychromatic dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Wyrm timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 89:
Wyrm adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Wyrm mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 90:
Kyriotates (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 92:
Great wyrm timber dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 95:
Great wyrm adamantite dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Great wyrm mithril dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 96:
Mercury gargant (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 97:
Io (Jaerom Darkwind, Dicefreaks)

CR 101:
Cogent/World Flayer (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 106:
Godly Air Elemental (Fëanáro, Dicefreaks)

CR 110:
Orichalcum golem (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 112:
Force colossus (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 116:
Wyrmling cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 120:
Godzilla (Upper_Krust, promotional)

CR 126:
Ophanim (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Diamond colossus (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 128:
Talos (Upper_Krust, promotional)
Very young cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Wyrmling void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 133:
King Ghidorah (Upper_Krust, promotional)

CR 140:
Young cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Very young void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 152:
Juvenile cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Young void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 164:
Young adult cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Juvenile void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 175:
Cherubim (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 176:
Adult cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Young adult void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 188:
Mature adult cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Adult void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 196:
Mercury colossus (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 200:
Old cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Mature adult void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 208:
The Lady of Pain (Phaedros, Dicefreaks)

CR 212:
Very old cometary dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)
Old void dragon (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 213:
Force leviathan (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

CR 220:
Orichalcum sentinel (Upper_Krust, Immortals Handbook)

Epic Material:
The Gates of Hell (free)
Legends of Avadnu ($5.00, free preview)
Immortals Handbook: Epic Bestiary (pdf one) (£3.50)
Epic Level Handbook ($30.00, SRD material online)


----------



## DM-Rocco (Jul 22, 2005)

Okay, no need for me to make a wizard if this guy wants in.  He responded to one of my other threads and has already made a wizard.  I posted a link on that thread and invited him here, this is the character he made so far:




			
				Moleculo said:
			
		

> I'm working on an Epic 100th level Wizard right now. It's a lot more work than I thought it would be! Hehe. Should I fill out spells? Or just say that the PC can choose any spell in the PHB.
> 
> Heres what I have so far (still working on items!)
> 
> ...



If he doesn't come, I will make a wizard, if he does, I'll just pimp out the fighter


----------



## DM-Rocco (Jul 22, 2005)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey DM-Rocco!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'd be very interested in see it 

I don't have a website, sorry, can't share anything, but what is your site?


----------



## DM-Rocco (Jul 22, 2005)

Okay, after reviewing some powerful CR210 encoutners and the immortal handbook page, I realize that there are just a bunch of things that CRGreathouse and UpperKrust know that I don't.  So, with that said, you two are going to have to come up with tactics for the encounters for those of us who don't know the full potential of the monsters.  Sure we could come up with a max, empowered, still, twin, enlarged, shaped, quickened and silent horridwilting, but not all of us know about shape reality or divine ranks and such, and I have a feeling that you two do .


Anyway, we still need a story first, and thanks for posting more encounters and monsters, Lady of Pain, ouch 

So, that said, I would like to take a roll call quick on who is in and then vote on the source material.  I had originally posted this:

guide lines, I think we need to set a number of books to work with, Obviously,
  3.5 PHB
  DMI
  DMII
  MMI
  MMII 
  MMIII
  Deities and Demi Gods
  EPHB
  The Book of Exhaulted Deeds
  The Book of Vile Darkness
  Faiths and Patheons from the forgotten realms

  If you post or want to add something from anything else, you would have to post all details.  CRGreathouse wanted to use material from his high CR sources, I agree, we should, but we have to list everything that is relavent, that is all.  I included the Books of exhaulted Deeds and Vile Darkness cause of the Vile damage (can't really be prevented) and a few other things I think are possible to annouy 100th level characters.

After we agree on this we will vote on what we like for character creation and then plot.  I know I have listed some rules in the first post, but I am not the only person on this, so I feel we should all agree on it and then move on.

So, do we all agree on the source books?


----------



## CRGreathouse (Jul 22, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> 3.5 PHB
> DMI
> DMII
> MMI
> ...




Frankly we can pare it down even more (as desired) -- the core 4 (PH/DMG/MM plus ELH) plus Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness should be enough.  The god books (Deities and Demigods & Faiths and Pantheons) would be decent for the DM, but otherwise not needed.

Also, we'll need to have a strict policy on epic spells.  They're a little wacky.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 22, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I propose nothing over 50,000,000 million gold or +50 enhancment, whichever comes first.  I figure you can't have any item over +10 enhancment in pre epic, so for every to levels you can get another +10 and no more than a +25 in item enhancement and +25 in bonuses, like vorpal and such.  It is going to be nuts, but we should still have rule and limitations, everyone agree to that?



I think that a 100th level adventure doesn't require uber magical items. I would stick with normal DMG items, plus a few artifacts. However, this epic play doesn't need anything other than +5 intelligent vorpal swords.



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I hope that if we don't go with Turanil's idea that he will still want to help.



Well, ahem...



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> How about etc. <see post 17>



Excellent synopsis!



			
				CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Frankly we can pare it down even more (as desired) -- the core 4 (PH/DMG/MM plus ELH) plus Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness should be enough.  The god books (Deities and Demigods & Faiths and Pantheons) would be decent for the DM, but otherwise not needed.
> 
> Also, we'll need to have a strict policy on epic spells.  They're a little wacky.



Much agreed on that.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Jul 22, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Frankly we can pare it down even more (as desired) -- the core 4 (PH/DMG/MM plus ELH) plus Exalted Deeds/Vile Darkness should be enough. The god books (Deities and Demigods & Faiths and Pantheons) would be decent for the DM, but otherwise not needed.
> 
> Also, we'll need to have a strict policy on epic spells. They're a little wacky.




I agree, but I added in the Deities and Demigods & Faiths and Pantheons simply because of gods and divine ranks.  It is the closest d20 source we have for 100th level play and encounters.  

Well, let's do this to keep it simple:

Source books :
PH/DMG/MM plus ELH

anything else you need approval if you put it in an encounter.  That way we can leave it open if someone wants to grab a monster from another source, but we don't get bogged down with tons of feats and obscure prestige classes.  

Sound good to everyone?



			
				Turanil said:
			
		

> I think that a 100th level adventure doesn't require uber magical items. I would stick with normal DMG items, plus a few artifacts. However, this epic play doesn't need anything other than +5 intelligent vorpal swords.
> 
> Well, ahem...
> 
> ...




Magical items are kind of subjective at this level, there are ways to eliminate then from play, but people will want to make them, so would should have some type of rule for making them.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 22, 2005)

Something I do remember of my young munchkin days:

Our group had to go through an anti-magic cavern totally filled with water (so swimming and using device to breath underwater), where we fought: 4 krakens and a tarrasque. Of course these were munchkin days (a total of 8 artifacts for 3 PCs, and artifacts don't care for anti-magic), so we don't suffered much to get across it...

Anyway: Lets put again the cavern entirely filled with water, except for the top. Place is equivalent to an anti-magic shell. Inside are four advanced krakens with the half-fiend template, plus, say, an aquatic advanced half-fiend tarrasque. So, unless having artifacts or ways to circumvent anti-magic, they must swim and fight the monsters below.


----------



## Yair (Jul 22, 2005)

I'm working with the SRD so would like to add Deities & Demigods for the added feats, domains, etc in it - but not the divine ranks themselves, I think.
I'm working on an epic bard (bard 69/cleric 9/high prosletyzer 22). I realize it isn't quite a straight-class character as we were asked to do, but maybe we'll find some use for it and the character grabbed me. It will take some time to work out as I'm not home this weekend (family obligations), but I expect to post it on monday or so. (He's called "Kolshadai, the Voice of God".)

In other words, I'm in (if anyone wants my aid).

On the magic item thingie: part and parcel of being at level 100 is having so much character wealth. Just plain +5 vorpal swords are not appropriate for that power level. 
Although I must say I was shocked to find that a +70 enhancement bonus to an ability score hardly puts a damp on the character's resources, and that a SR 200 item is even cheaper. (If I got the math right.)
I agree epic spells need be considered with care. I'll post Kolshadai's when I work them out. I do believe their development cost should be part of the character's wealth, much like inherent bonus items.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 22, 2005)

By the way, what about a Monk 20 - Shadowdancer 10 - Cleric 70?


----------



## DM-Rocco (Jul 22, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I'm working with the SRD so would like to add Deities & Demigods for the added feats, domains, etc in it - but not the divine ranks themselves, I think.
> I'm working on an epic bard (bard 69/cleric 9/high prosletyzer 22). I realize it isn't quite a straight-class character as we were asked to do, but maybe we'll find some use for it and the character grabbed me. It will take some time to work out as I'm not home this weekend (family obligations), but I expect to post it on monday or so. (He's called "Kolshadai, the Voice of God".)
> 
> In other words, I'm in (if anyone wants my aid).
> ...




Glad to have you aboard.

I wanted to cap how crazy we could get with magical items, at least for our pre-generated characters.  If people want to play the module with a DM and the DM says go nuts, fine, but I wanted to keep some type of realistic expectations on what you can and can not have.  A cloak of 200 SR may be a bit much, although, none of us, I am assuming, have really played in a 100th level game, at least not in 3.5, so maybe a 100th level wizard could over come that, perhaps not, but as wacky as this next statement will sound, we have to have a balance.

Also, About your character, I wanted to have all straight classes, but I know that people will want to play a prestige class, so I was thinking one standard base class and up to one prestige class.  I didn't want things getting too nuts, I'm mean, with 100 levels to play with, we could end up with a ton of classes and abilities and bog everything down or just really munchkin the hell out of the game and that wouldn't be balanced.

Go ahead and make the guy and we will see, but it would be best if you could just limit him to a base class and a prestige class.

I am not familar that much with the epic prestige classes, is there a reason for the 9 levels of cleric?  Perhaps you could cut that out, as a suggestion.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Jul 22, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Something I do remember of my young munchkin days:
> 
> Our group had to go through an anti-magic cavern totally filled with water (so swimming and using device to breath underwater), where we fought: 4 krakens and a tarrasque. Of course these were munchkin days (a total of 8 artifacts for 3 PCs, and artifacts don't care for anti-magic), so we don't suffered much to get across it...
> 
> Anyway: Lets put again the cavern entirely filled with water, except for the top. Place is equivalent to an anti-magic shell. Inside are four advanced krakens with the half-fiend template, plus, say, an aquatic advanced half-fiend tarrasque. So, unless having artifacts or ways to circumvent anti-magic, they must swim and fight the monsters below.




Well, kind of reminds me of one of my favorite traps.  You have to swim in a flooded portion of a dungeon and half way through the flooded portion of the dungeon you encounter a elder water elemental who uses his power to create a whirlpower and tries to pins the party with its force.  We could add him in the same room, except of course you would have to make him much more powerful to pin such high level guys and the Krakens and the Tarrasque should be large enough that they would be uneffected. 

As far as artifact go though, while a group of normal 100th level guys would have one or three  , I don't think we should really start out these guys with any.


----------



## Yair (Jul 22, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I wanted to cap how crazy we could get with magical items, at least for our pre-generated characters.  If people want to play the module with a DM and the DM says go nuts, fine, but I wanted to keep some type of realistic expectations on what you can and can not have.  A cloak of 200 SR may be a bit much, although, none of us, I am assuming, have really played in a 100th level game, at least not in 3.5, so maybe a 100th level wizard could over come that, perhaps not, but as wacky as this next statement will sound, we have to have a balance.



Quite true. The thing is, according to SRD/ELH rules an SR 200 item is rather cheap (well, relatively speaking), cheaper than the +70 enhancement to ability which is according with our guidelines. I agree it is excessive, however; I'll tone it down to a managable level... around 100, I think.
Ultimately, however, there is no escaping the fact that the huge amount of wealth means atrociously powerful magic items.



> I am not familar that much with the epic prestige classes, is there a reason for the 9 levels of cleric?  Perhaps you could cut that out, as a suggestion.



The character is essentially a straight bard with some High Prosletyzer prestige class levels; the cleric is there just to qualify for the HiP. The idea of the HiP is that it has the "prosletyze" ability that allows him to speak out to huge audiences at once, which is why the bard took it. It requires divine spellcasting, and he took enough of it to raise him to a level 20 cleric spellcaster. The rest is bard.
The idea is that he uses his prosletyze ability to get the attention of huge crowds, and his high perform and diplomacy to turn them into fanatic disciples. It's fairly useless in combat terms, but I'm thinking in terms of him acting to spread the religion of his god/pantheon which can lead to all kinds of epic challenges, so I wanted to include that in.


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## CRGreathouse (Jul 23, 2005)

What races are valid?  Can we use the ECL races from the ELH?


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 26, 2005)

Sorry, I took the weekend to read Harry Potter, not bad.


Anyway, as far as races, I would like to keep them to PHB, and maybe Eberron, races, things will already be nuts without having level 86 Psion sucubus'.  If you would like to throw in a race with a low ELC, put it on the borad and we will vote.  I guess if people want to play demons and get really nuts, we could, might be fun.

What does everyone think, no or low level ECL races or go nuts and open the flood gates?

Also, I have been working on a story hook that involves elements of everyone story.  I'll try to send it out by this weekend and see what you think.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 28, 2005)

Still working on it, I am done with Harry Potter and I am done writing for my next game, so, by Saturday, look for a new story line


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 29, 2005)

Okay, 100th level module proposal.

First thing is first, the first chapter of the module is for 20th level characters. I figured out a way to use normal high level characters in a 100th level adventure, so you can use it as part of your current game, you’ll see.

*Chapter one - the Gods in peril

*The story starts with the party receiving a warning from there Gods so strong that it wakes your character, whether you are sleeping, in a coma or even from the grave. A wizard and cleric of surprising power have evaded the premonitions of the Gods by plotting and planning events for a powerful magical event. They evaded the divine power of the Gods ability to see into the future by planning for this event at the base of the Spire in the Outlands where the God cannot see. They have climbed to the top of the Spire and began their magical event by creating a Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra. For those of you not familiar with Magical Events, see chapter 3 of the DMGII.

The Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra is just the beginning, but they have also started a new magical event, an Elemental Swarm (new one I made up for this adventure) that prohibits magic from those not protected in a certain way, and as it is a unique event, only the wizard and the cleric have this power, not even the Gods understand it. The top of the Spire is also the site of a circle with the Spirit of Nature’s Rage. The burning eye is slowly growing, so those who teleport to Sigil find the city in flames and also discover that the Lady of Pain is occupied trying to hold the city together from the vast amount of magical energy forming on the Spire tip. 

No way can be found from Sigil to get to the top of the Spire, you have to go to the Outlands and travel from the outer most part of the plane towards the center to the Spire. Every God is concerned and has called a truce of sorts, so every race is represented and all of the Gods have gathered in the Outlands to try and come to a solution. The progressive failings of magic as you get closer to the Spire means that most won’t get to close and most of the Gods will not come closer than 301 miles from the spire as they will lose their divine ranks. A few will deem this threat powerful enough to venture to the top of the Spire itself, however.

Once the party over comes the problems to get to the top of the Spire, should be fun without magic, a third magical events begins. The party sees the wizard and the cleric standing under the Burning Eye of Al-Ghantra on either side of a Sphere of Annihilation . There may or may not be an encounter where the evil doer’s can monologue and/or fight, but before the party gets to crazy, the wizard and cleric complete the next magical event and open a Consuming Vortex of Traal right behind the Sphere of Annihilation. The area if flooded with Negative and Positive energy. Once a few of the Gods enter the area, something unexpected occurs, the Magical event of the Elemental Swarms falters and an Elder - Mega Xag-Ya and an Elder - Mega Xeg-Yi, (energons page 168 of the MotP), enter the area and once they see each other they converge on each other and explode, causing the wizard and the cleric to lose control of the Sphere of Annihilation which gets sucked into the Consuming Vortex of Traal and then pulls in the Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra, causing a massive explosion across the cosmos.

Confused yet? It really isn’t that complicated, just sounds like it.

*Chapter 2 - Strange Days

*The party is flooded with power, both from the Gods and the energy of all the planes combined. Basically they are recreated, atom by atom, but on the plus side, for the time being, they have the power of 100th level characters, yeh  . They can also temporarily be a different race, remember they are parts of many different races, but no divine ranks. Now they make their 100th level character. Please no leadership feats  

The Wizard and Cleric were trying an experiment but with the Gods interfering, they created a rift in the cosmos and destroyed the whole of the current cosmos, throwing everyone, or mostly everyone, into an alternate cosmos. 

Adventure hook, you must figure out how to reverse the effects of the Magical Event and restore your old Cosmos or have the deaths of a googolplex beings on your conscious. Deal with that. Parts of this chapter can deal with some fun differences between the old Cosmos and this one, like some old enemies are now your friends and your best friend is a back stabber.
*Chapter 3 - The Ajah Armory

*As a 100th level guy, you have the same gear you did when you were 20th level, plus a few extra items, but we will have rules for continuing to pimp out your current 20th level gear, this will reduce the massive power or way to much disposable income of a 100th level character, some anyway. Also, you will have access too The Ajah Armory. In this chapter you have a run in with Ay-Gax, a small child, is wondering around the planes, or other location. He is really the Xag-Ya, but he does not know it, and the party should not at this point either. He is healing the sick and curing maladies in Limbo and forces the demons and devils to stop the blood war. He eventually teleports to Sigil

The Ajah Armory
Created under the working name of _recursive co-terminal multi-functional all terrain interdimensional closet of useful things_ by Mizledorf, the Patron Saint of Gnomes Everywhere, Founding Liege of Kirpah Nasmong- a Gnomish Utopia (Male Celestial Gnome/Bard 33, Illusionist 33, Tinker 33/N). One day Mizledorf realized the name was too long (everyone else would just tune him out when he started to say "recursive"), and he said "Ah hah!" with great triumph. However, his yiddish accent made it sound like "ajah!" And thus his culturally bankrupt allies dubbed the armory the Ajah. Convinced it was flawed, Mizledorf gave it to his friends (the 100th level party) as a gift, and set about improving its design. That's Mizledorf for you, one parts gnome, two parts perfectionist.

How it works: Once attuned to the Ajah, a character need only concentrate as a standard action and whatever piece of equipment they desire appears equipped on them. They make a requisition check: d20 + Concentration. The check is made against the purchasing DC of the requisitioned item. Items worth 35,000 gold or less (DC 40) have no effect on the Ajah. Items (or collective "purchases") worth more cause the Ajah's new wealth to decrease until said items are returned. The wealth loss for a single requisition equals = 1/3 (purchase DC - wealth bonus) rounded up. The Ajah has a base wealth bonus of 40.


*Chapter 4 - Iy-Xeg

*Iy-Xeg is the Xeg-Yi in human form and he has just slew an epic dragon and is picking through the remains with a stick, like a creepy kid would a dead cat. The PCs encounter him starting an over throw of the heavens and other such suggested encounters for the DM. He eventually teleports to Sigil.

*Chapter 5 - The Wizard’s madness

*Originally Posted by Philip 

Unknown to the players when they try to teleport they are thrown into a dream plane of the Wizard’s mind and has split up into multiple personalities who are battling each other across his own mindscape. Unknown to them the PCs are pulled into his mind and must battle the personalities across an ever-changing landscape.

Without warning the PCs are suddenly the only living creatures left in an utterly barren universe. They have to find out what happened. Perhaps one of them did it inadvertently or they have a traitor amongst them?

The Cleric saves the party at the last minute, as she is trapped in here as well, but not before the PCs have many tribulations and trails.

*Chapter 6 - the Cleric redemption

*The Cleric knows that things have gone wrong and wants to help make things right, but the Gods don’t know this and they have surprises in store for the cleric, and now the PCs.

Originally Posted by Ozmar 

I think this is a good time to introduce the Gods for the PCs to fight and also to have them face mass assaults from armies and such. A good chance for them to really flex their massive abilities by slaying hoards of demons and devils and angels and undead and whatever else we choose.

*Chapter 7 - The Lady of Pain’s Revenge

*The child incarnations of the Energons have been playing with the PCs throughout the module, playing tricks on them and healing their enemies and starting fights. They are pure energy from the positive and the negative plane and have no emotions, they are, for the first time, free to experiment and they are very good at it, whether it is stopping the blood war or killing all the angels in the heavens, they are just children having fun, without a peer or parent to stop them. 

If the PCs attack them, consider them only to have 6 in all stats, but they have the knowledge and power of 1000th level characters, and can cast any spell, including epic spells and they don’t need others to do a ritual with them, so, even if they die, they come back in a single round and can and will use a powerful effect on the PCs. Most of the time however they just act like children, carefree and only thinking of themselves. It should also be noted that bringing the two together simply won’t reverse events, in fact, it gives them purpose. Where before they were content with minor experiments, now they feel whole when together (remember, alternate cosmos, things working backwards) and they begin to terrorize the cosmos.
The Energons are now in Sigil and the Lady of Pain has forced the PCs into Sigil to deal with them. Whatever happens, the PCs must fight the Lady of Pain, even if it is only for a few rounds. She will most likely overwhelm them, but the PCs might get the jump on her, either way she forces or begs the PCs to act and get the Energons out of her city. The Energons are not willing to leave such a fun city, unless the PCs can find a new place for them to have fun.

From Sigil, you can see the massive castle of the Wizard and Cleric that has formed in the center of the ring of Sigil. Actually, all you can see is a giant black sun which seems to absorb light, and everything else, it is a very large sphere of annihilation growing from the top of the Spire. It is so massive that it can almost be reached with very tall ladders from the streets of Sigil, no wonder the Lady of Pain is so upset.

*Chapter 8 - Crating the Epic Spell of Reseeding

*One of the places the PCs can offer the Energons to play in is the Observatorium. From here, and also with the help of the Library of Lore (Boccob’s Library), the PCs can create an Epic Spells to recreate the cosmos. While there are hard at work, the PCs can slowly see the warriors of the Ex-Blood War slowly taking control of the cosmos. The demons and the devils, without wasting energy on each other, have grown very powerful, enough of a challenge for 100th level PCs and from time to time they try to invade the Observatorium, or wherever the PCs are.

*Chapter 9 - Assault on the Castle in the Void

*Basically, everyone seemed to like the storyline by Turanil but I wanted something that made everyone happy, so while it may have to be scaled down a bit from your original idea, here is where you get to add your castle/dimension/epochs thingy. The wizard and the cleric however are in the castle, not just a Chronomancer, but the wizard can be a Chronomancer in addition to a wizard . Note, the Castle in the Void is actually inside a sphere of annihilation, which should make for some great fun in-and-of-itself. Also, the PCs must face the Lady of Pain and get her to let the Gods in the city so they can temporarily open a way into the sphere of annihilation.

Once the cleric and the Wizard are defeated, and they can and do summon some terrible stuff to deal with the PCs, the PCs can then place the energon children at the center of the Castle in the Void and cast the Epic Spell to reseed the time stream. Pretty much the end at that point.

 What do you guys think?

Here is the rest of Turanil's idea:
Synopsis: A Chronomancer* (who was but 20th level), using wishes and chronomancy spells, created major time paradoxes which resulted in himself becoming a demi-god, but also creating a mess of dimensions and epochs. Now (inspired from the Amber novels), he resides in a castle at the junction of four planes and a dozen timelines. The world is slowly destroyed by this mess however, and is going to be soon obliterated in a giant sphere of annihilation (due to the time paradox and what not, this sphere is now growing fast, and if not stopped soon enough will devour the planet).

So the PCs will first have to figure out what happens, then get to the mighty castle at the junction of planes and epochs. Of course, other epochs mean they will have to fight villains from the future (with modern weapons) as well as from the past.


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## Turanil (Jul 29, 2005)

Thanks for integrating everyon's ideas, but in the end it makes for a very long and complicated story (several gaming sessions). I would streamline much of this; for me the important parts would be:

1) Two villains of surprising power do a ritual that opens a rift into the universe. As a result, some creatures are infused with incredible energies and powers (so PCs become 100th level, but also a Xag-Ya and some demon-princes that happened to be in Sigil are likewise greatly improved). However, the rift has created a sort of gigantic growing sphere of anihilation that threatens to eventually destroy the world as it was a black hole.

2) PCs must travel to the Observatorium to create a couple of epic spells that will let them fix all of this mess. First, they must find a way to go inside the sphere of anihilation without being destroyed; requiring the creation of an epic spell. During this time, some improved demon-princes (see above) who want to get to the sphere for their own benefit try to attack the PCs.

3) Castle in the Void: This is in fact the horn of the Creator god, on an island in the void which actually is his mind. The two villains actually control the mind of the Creator god (insane, I know) and make him create hideous things (traps and monsters) to combat the PCs. Nonetheless, the two villains are themselves at a loss and losing control. Anyway, the castle in the void is the head/horn and mind of the Creator god. The castle is thus a living entity and a changing landscape. Also, the only reason a castle may exist into a sphere of anihilation is because it is the Creator god, who is greatly weakened and in tortured agony by this nonetheless.

4) Final: PCs eventually learn that the Creator god was at the origin of all the pantheon gods who then created the multiverse. However, the pantheon gods rebelled and locked the Creator god away. Yet, the Creator god managed to free himself in creating a "_Cleric and a wizard of surprising powers_" who were but manifestations-avatars of himself. So when the PCs are in the castle in the void, in the Creator's god mind controlled by the "Cleric and a wizard of surprising powers", etc., this is indeed: "_a dream plane of the Wizard’s mind and has split up into multiple personalities who are battling each other across his own mindscape. Unknown to them the PCs are pulled into his mind and must battle the personalities across an ever-changing landscape._"

5) To succeed the PCs must re-unify the whole Creator god's personnality. Thereafter well... no need to tell if everything is back to normal (PCs sent back into their own world by the Creator god, while he himself remains into the void), or if the Creator god kills all the pantheon gods, and now everywhere will only exist monotheistic religions dedicated to him...


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## Turanil (Jul 29, 2005)

Okay, I propose you in more detail my shortened / streamlined version of this adventure:


*The World's End - 100th Level Adventure*


*1 - Introduction*

Some obscure legends have hinted that before the dawn of time was a god so vile and so horrific, that all of the deities, good and evil, lawful and chaoric, united their powers to banish him into the void. The vile deity was so powerful in fact, that all the gods of all pantheons hadn't united, they would never have defeated him. 

However, the truth is slightly different from the almost forgotten legend. The truth is that the multiverse was born from the thought of the "Creator God". It was he who gave birth to the first deities who in turn created all what exists in the universe. The "Creator God" wasn't evil, neither good. But he was nearly omniscient and omnipotent. Hence, all the ancient deities of the dawn of times united their efforts and banished him into the void to get rid of his rule.

Eons later, more and more people got the idea to create monotheistic religions. Then, their combined faiths and prayers eventually awoke a tiny spark of consciousness in the slumbering Creator God, far away in the void where he had been banished. As such, he was able to incarnate two minuscule sparks (and maybe also a third) of his mind into two humans (and also maybe a gnome...). These three character grew and evolved, and lived long enough so they would ventually become 100th level characters: a gnome, cleric, and wizard. Note that it is hinted that they were the only characters in all history of the multiverse to achieve this "impossible" level.

Finally, the cleric and the wizard met, and went to the Outland's spire to perform an event of ritual magic of unthinkable scale... However, before they would finish their work, a group of 20th level adventurers was led there by their deities, obscure prophecies, or what not, in order to investigate.


*2 - The Multiverse in Peril*

The story starts with the party receiving a warning from there Gods so strong that it wakes your character, whether you are sleeping, in a coma or even from the grave. A wizard and cleric of surprising power have evaded the premonitions of the Gods by plotting and planning events for a powerful magical event. They evaded the divine power of the Gods ability to see into the future by planning for this event at the base of the Spire in the Outlands where the God cannot see. They have climbed to the top of the Spire and began their magical event by creating a Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra. For those of you not familiar with Magical Events, see chapter 3 of the DMGII.

The Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra is just the beginning, but they have also started a new magical event, an Elemental Swarm (new one I made up for this adventure) that prohibits magic from those not protected in a certain way, and as it is a unique event, only the wizard and the cleric have this power, not even the Gods understand it. The top of the Spire is also the site of a circle with the Spirit of Nature’s Rage. The burning eye is slowly growing, so those who teleport to Sigil find the city in flames and also discover that the Lady of Pain is occupied trying to hold the city together from the vast amount of magical energy forming on the Spire tip. 

No way can be found from Sigil to get to the top of the Spire, you have to go to the Outlands and travel from the outer most part of the plane towards the center to the Spire. Every God is concerned and has called a truce of sorts, so every race is represented and all of the Gods have gathered in the Outlands to try and come to a solution. The progressive failings of magic as you get closer to the Spire means that most won’t get to close and most of the Gods will not come closer than 301 miles from the spire as they will lose their divine ranks. A few will deem this threat powerful enough to venture to the top of the Spire itself, however.

So the PCs have to climb the spire. See it as a gigantic mountain that reaches beyond the sky. During their travel they should ride Rocs. Then they must make at least one encounter: they are not alone on this quest, as other groups have been sent by other deities! One interesting and useful encounter: a group of powerful fiends with their leader being somewhat a demon prince. Here they are normal (not taking into account the anti-magic nature of the place); they must be fought, but some must escape as later they will encounter the PCs again, but having beng improved themselves by the magical event as the PCs will.

Once the party over comes the problems to get to the top of the Spire, should be fun without magic, a third magical events begins. The party sees the wizard and the cleric standing under the Burning Eye of Al-Ghantra on either side of a Sphere of Annihilation . There may or may not be an encounter where the evil doer’s can monologue and/or fight, but before the party gets to crazy, the wizard and cleric complete the next magical event and open a Consuming Vortex of Traal right behind the Sphere of Annihilation. The area if flooded with Negative and Positive energy. Once a few of the Gods enter the area, something unexpected occurs, the Magical event of the Elemental Swarms falters and an Elder - Mega Xag-Ya and an Elder - Mega Xeg-Yi, (energons page 168 of the MotP), enter the area and once they see each other they converge on each other and explode, causing the wizard and the cleric to lose control of the Sphere of Annihilation which gets sucked into the Consuming Vortex of Traal and then pulls in the Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra, causing a massive explosion across the cosmos.


*3 - The PCs Are Reborn Phoenixes*

The Wizard and Cleric were trying to bring back the Creator God, but with the gods, the PCs, and others interfering the magical ritual went wrong and opened a rift in the multiverse. In addition, the PCs (and unknown to them the demon-prince and his fiends, plus maybe yet others) were flooded with power from the Creator God. 

As such, the PCs are basically recreated, atom by atom, and on the plus side, for the time being, they have got the powers of 100th level characters, yeah! (They can also temporarily be a different race, remember they are parts of many different races, but no divine ranks. Now they make their 100th level character. Please no leadership feats.)  Otherwise, as 100th level characters, they still have the same gear they did when they were 20th level, this will reduce the massive power or way to much disposable income of a 100th level character.


*4 - The Observatorium*

Because of the event there is now above the spire a rift that lets sip into the world a growing sphere of anihilation that begins to suck everything into it like it was a black hole. Even if they are 100th level, the PCs cannot enter the sphere of anihilation without being instantly destroyed. They must find help or prepare themselves, or whatever. But in the end it becomes clear they need special magic, and to get it they will have to seek it into the fabled and legendary "Observatorium". 

It happens that here has waited for centuries a gnome of incredible power... 

*The Ajah Armory*
Created under the working name of recursive co-terminal multi-functional all terrain interdimensional closet of useful things by Mizledorf, the Patron Saint of Gnomes Everywhere, Founding Liege of Kirpah Nasmong- a Gnomish Utopia (Male Celestial Gnome/Bard 33, Illusionist 33, Tinker 33/N). One day Mizledorf realized the name was too long (everyone else would just tune him out when he started to say "recursive"), and he said "Ah hah!" with great triumph. However, his yiddish accent made it sound like "ajah!" And thus his culturally bankrupt allies dubbed the armory the Ajah. 
How it works: Once attuned to the Ajah, a character need only concentrate as a standard action and whatever piece of equipment they desire appears equipped on them. They make a requisition check: d20 + Concentration. The check is made against the purchasing DC of the requisitioned item. Items worth 35,000 gold or less (DC 40) have no effect on the Ajah. Items (or collective "purchases") worth more cause the Ajah's new wealth to decrease until said items are returned. The wealth loss for a single requisition equals = 1/3 (purchase DC - wealth bonus) rounded up. The Ajah has a base wealth bonus of 40.

So, the PCs must convince the gnome to aid them. If successful, he will give them his armory that will be invaluable to create the two or three mighty epic spells of ultimate power that will bring everything back to normal. They can also craft a few epic magical items while they are there...

I think this is a good time to introduce the Gods for the PCs to fight and also to have them face mass assaults from armies and such. A good chance for them to really flex their massive abilities by slaying hoards of demons and devils and angels and undead and whatever else we choose. The trick is to let them fight "normal" powerful critters to see how munchkin they have become...


*5 - The Castle In The Void*

Thus, with the first of the three epic spells, the 100th level PCs are able to teleport into the huge growing sphere of anihilation (without being instantly erased from existence and memory). They land on a rocky island in a black sea under a pitch black sky. On top of the island they see (at 100th level they have got the mean to see through the darkness, otherwise they are blind) a strange tower resembling a horn 300 fet tall. 

What the PCs don't know, is that they are in the Creator God's mind and dreams. Being inside his mind, they are protected from the anihilating void's destruction. Note however, that the Creator God barely resists utter anihilation himself, and thus create things (the whole dungeon) that are puny and insignificant with regard to what he was able to do originally. The island in the black sea is in fact the top of his head with his left horn. This symbolically represents the last spark of his immense powers that resists utter anihilation inside the great void.

The PCs enter the tower. If they choose the underground instead of the tower's entrance, they arrive into a huge cavern almost entirely filled with water. Place is furthermore equivalent to an anti-magic shell. Inside are four advanced half-fiend krakens, plus an aquatic advanced half-fiend tarrasque. So, unless having artifacts or ways to circumvent anti-magic, they must swim and fight the monsters below. This is made especially difficult because halfway through the flooded dungeon they encounter a elder water elemental who uses its power to create a whirlpower and tries to pins the party with its force. It is extremely powerful to pin such high level PCs, but the Krakens and the Tarrasque should be large enough that they would be uneffected.

Further into the dungeon and tower, it appears evident that the PCs are in the living and everchanging dreamscape of a powerful being with a split identity. Tow of these identities are the Cleric and Wizard who created all this mess. None of them can understand or remember that they are part of this place, and instead try to control it. It's like a much lesser aspect of the Creator God attempted to be himself with all his powers. 

In any case, the PCs must battle various epic monsters and traps. In the end, they meet with the demon-prince and his fiends that they had met in the beginning of the adventure on the spire. They have been themselves improved, and thus are now a match for the PCs. They too want to destroy the cleric and wizard, to take over the Creator God and become master of the universe (or so they believe). PCs must eventually understand that they must not kill the cleric and wizard, bt unite them to the Creator God's remaining mind with the last epic ritual of magic. If they succeed, the Creator God regains some of his awareness and sanity. 


*6 - Epilogue*

What happens thereafter also depends of the PCs' actions. Some possible outcomes:

-- The Creator God sends the PCs back to their world stripped of the undue power (levels), but in the meantime repairs the mess, and leaves the Universe to build another one beyond...

-- The Creator God slays all the pantheon gods and reshapes the multiverse. Magic disappears, and now the world awake as in real life. PCs are normal (20th level, but no more any magical equipment), but live on Earth during the middle ages. What it was before (D&D and wonder) is not entirely forgotten, but remains now only in legends. (Thereafter you begin a d20 modern campaign without magic.)


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## Numion (Jul 29, 2005)

If 50 million is the limit for a single item, that means a +76 enhancement bonus item or a +50 weapon. If two-handed weapons deal 1.5 times STR bonus in damage (or was it double? in 3.5) that's like 99 or 132 bonus from the STR. If no special properties in the +50 weapon, that's something like 180 bonus damage on every strike.


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## Turanil (Jul 29, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> If no special properties in the +50 weapon, that's something like 180 bonus damage on every strike.



Personally, I really dislike epic magical items. I think the most powerful magical items in the DMG (or similar sources) are enough, and then the PCs find artifacts. Now, if there must really be epic items (+50, no please, no...) I would suggest that they can only exist in the Castle in the Void, in the mind of the Creator God.


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## Turanil (Jul 29, 2005)

So, who is interested in working on this project? 

I am, but preferably my "World's End" version above. I would like to work on the Castle in the Void part. I have many ideas (inspired from Moorcock novels) from old AD&D scenarios of mine that I would like to recycle. On the other hand, I don't want to write anything about NPCs, monsters and how encounters are to be run.

I have weird ideas to make a castle that is in fact the representation of a tortured god's mind. This adventure could be truly epic, not only provide epic foes...


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 29, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> If 50 million is the limit for a single item, that means a +76 enhancement bonus item or a +50 weapon. If two-handed weapons deal 1.5 times STR bonus in damage (or was it double? in 3.5) that's like 99 or 132 bonus from the STR. If no special properties in the +50 weapon, that's something like 180 bonus damage on every strike.




Um, if you read, I had requested no enhancement bonuses over +25, you could go to +50 opn the weapon, but the other +25 had to be things like dancing or flame or whatever, so yes, with a two handed weapon, you could have a +25 + let's say you had a 100 str (only a +25 from one item remember) you would get a +67 for wielding a two handed weapon and you could power attack for +30 (1.5 damage bonus too with a two handed weapon, but only to your base attack bonus, which caps at +29) for a total of +123, so yes you can do a lot of damage, that is part of the point, but you will have a much lower AC, (up to a +29 on your ac from a +25 tower shield) which means you may not live to deal it all, you decide.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 29, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Thanks for integrating everyon's ideas, but in the end it makes for a very long and complicated story (several gaming sessions). I would streamline much of this; for me the important parts would be:
> 
> 1) Two villains of surprising power do a ritual that opens a rift into the universe. As a result, some creatures are infused with incredible energies and powers (so PCs become 100th level, but also a Xag-Ya and some demon-princes that happened to be in Sigil are likewise greatly improved). However, the rift has created a sort of gigantic growing sphere of anihilation that threatens to eventually destroy the world as it was a black hole.
> 
> ...




Hmm, well, in the end we both are a bit long, and the adventure should not be a simple one or two session thing.  Would you, as a player, go through the trouble to make a 100th level character just to play him for one, maybe two session game?

Anyway, both of our plots are a bit complex and we both presented them to the masses with extra information, which makes them seem longer than they are.

If I break mine down to simple encounters, it looks like this.

*Chapter one - the Gods in peril*
role-playing adventure hook and climbing the Spire

*Chapter 2 - Strange Days
*Create 100th level guys (hours in-and-of-itself) and then figure out how to reverse the effects of the Magical Event.  Also, reminder for the DM in an ongoing campaign that they can adlib at this point and have enemy be friends and friends now enemies

*Chapter 3 - The Ajah Armory
*Encounter with Ajah, who let's you use his armory, and then Ay-Gax.  Encounters with Ay-Gax can be open ended or just the one or two events we put there, namely stopping the Blood war. He eventually teleports to Sigil

*Chapter 4 - Iy-Xeg
*Iy-Xeg is the Xeg-Yi in human form.  Again, open ended enough to allow for a creative DM to add what he wants.  He can have the PCs chase him across the cosmos with his own ideas of mischief or just have him take Iy-Xeg to the 9 heavens where he casts out the angels as we will have an encounter for. He eventually teleports to Sigil.

*Chapter 5 - The Wizard’s madness
*Basically just room for one or two or three really tough encounters in a total dream realm

*Chapter 6 - the Cleric redemption
*Cleric tries to make friends with the PCs in one encounter and then we leave it open for the DM to have encounter with mass amounts of Gods.  I did also want to have one massive encounter where the PCs can truely go nuts and flex their consideralbe might, like facing an army.

*Chapter 7 - The Lady of Pain’s Revenge
*I wanted to use the Lady of Pain cause she is a 210 EC.  Even if it is a one sided fight and ends quickly, other than that, leave it open ended for a creative DM to have fun with the PCs chasing the Energons around Sigil, really two encounters.

*Chapter 8 - Crating the Epic Spell of Reseeding
*Crafting and defending those who are making the epic spell.

*Chapter 9 - Assault on the Castle in the Void
*Most likely the biggest part of the adventure as we have to make a castle.  Doesn't have to be big or traditional.  But I suspect at least 10 encnouters

Anyway, cutting out the background information it really isn't that big.  Yours, I suspect is not either, once you cut out the background information.  I like the idea that, at least for part of the advneture, the PCs have to chase around two children who have powers far beyond anything that the PCs, even at level 100, could ever comprehend.  That is the part I like the best, great room for some comedy too, which is almost a must in this 100th level wacky module. If there was one thing that I would love to add it would be that part of the module, not cause I am wacky normally, just cause I really like it.

I also like the idea of 20th level adventures having to magic and having to climb the spire, a good challenge.

Anyway, I told the others I would post the propsed plot line on Saturday, so let's give it until Monday for everyone to post pros and cons for each story.  On Monday we will see what everyone likes and make a more complete outline after some discussion, sound good ?


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 29, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Personally, I really dislike epic magical items. I think the most powerful magical items in the DMG (or similar sources) are enough, and then the PCs find artifacts. Now, if there must really be epic items (+50, no please, no...) I would suggest that they can only exist in the Castle in the Void, in the mind of the Creator God.




Well, I am of two minds, I think I like your idea of epic items in the castle in the void, but I also love making epic items, or even just regular non-epic magic items, and those who partake of the game will too and we would have to expect and plan for such items in encounters or the module will fall flat when a DM says go ahead and make an epic item, which will happen.  

I was thinking that you use magic items from the DMG that a 20th level character would or could have and then multiply it by 5.  What I mean by that it to say that a +5 Flaming burst, flaming, keen and holy two handed sword would becomme something like a +25 Flaming burst, flaming, fiery blast, keen, Lawful power, holy and holy power two handed sword.

It would would really have a +52 price modifier, but I would allow it cause it stays within the spirit of the idea of creating a item 5 times as powerful.  Basically, you add like abilities, increasing the power of the item.  A belt of STR +6 would be +30.  

I see what you are saying, but I don't think people will want to play a 100th level adventure with a + 5 flametounge, makes no sense.

They can then make other items or be given artifacts from the gods and I can't find it now, but there is a goo that drain the power from magic items too, so through attrition, they may not have what they start with.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 29, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> So, who is interested in working on this project?
> 
> I am, but preferably my "World's End" version above. I would like to work on the Castle in the Void part. I have many ideas (inspired from Moorcock novels) from old AD&D scenarios of mine that I would like to recycle. On the other hand, I don't want to write anything about NPCs, monsters and how encounters are to be run.
> 
> I have weird ideas to make a castle that is in fact the representation of a tortured god's mind. This adventure could be truly epic, not only provide epic foes...




Um, I was counting on the fact that you would want to do the castle, but again I hope you would still partake if out voted on the story plot, however, either way you would get to build the castle in the void  

Er, what exactly do you mean when you say that you don't want to write anything about NPCs, monsters and how encounters are to be run?

I don't mind providing tatics or dialogue if that is what you are saying.


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## Yair (Jul 30, 2005)

It took me a long time, but I've just about finished the character I talked about. Here he is below.
The addition of magic items is extremely significant, in retrospect. They're problematic, but level 100 characters with only level-20 magic items are so significantly weaker it's absurd. If we're to limit the PCs to level-20 gear, we might as well not design this for level 100 characters, the challenge is so very different. The character below, for example, is immune to just about anything as a result of his magic items; without them, he is extremely vulnerable.

Edit: he isn't quite right for this adventure, but he was still fun to do. 
Another Edit: I failed to notice it, but the _divine power_ spell is clearly broken at Epic as written; it should add +5 to BAB, not +65! That would significantly lower his attack bonuses, to +76.

*Kolshadai, the Voice of God CR 100*
Male Middle-Aged Human Brd 69/Clr 9/HiP 22
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
_Uses SRD, including Divine and Epic sections (but not divine ranks)_
*Init* +6; *Senses* Listen +57, Spot +8
*Languages *any and all [polyglot]
*AC* 92 [+6 Dex +5 armor +30 enchanement+1 shield+30 enhancement+10 deflection], touch 26, flat-footed 86
*Hp* 987 (69d6+9d8+22d8+500+100 temporary; 100 HD) [Bard 69 + Cleric 9 + High Proselytizer 22 levels]
*Immune *energy [ring], critical hits [heavy fortification], level 3 spells [emanation], possession [armor], spell turning [shield]; *SR* 110 [mantle], *DR* 15/adamantine [ring]
*Fort* +63 [6 base +40 epic+5 Con +2 feat +10 resistance], *Ref *+68 [12 base +40 epic +6 Dex +10 resistance], *Will* +70 [12 base +40 epic +8 Wis +10 resistance]
*Spd *60 ft. [boots], fly 60 ft. (Good) [armor]
*Melee* Rapier +116/111/106/101 (1d6+7+3d6 sonic +1d6 electricity+2d6 vs. evil16-20/x2, on critical +3d6 sonic+1d10 electricity)
*Base Atk* +100 [15+40 epic; gauntlet]; GRP +107
*Atk Options* divine might, reactive countersong, spells & metamagic
*Combat Gear *
_Armor of the Celestial Battalion_ (+7 enhancement chain mail, +10 max dex, light armor, fly at will, magic circle against evil) (616300 gp) of Heavy Fortification (+5), modified to +30 enhancement. (9,126,300 gp)
_Buckler_ +30 of Great Reflection (+10) and Infinite Arrow Deflection (+6) (21,160,300 gp) 
_Adamantine Rapier_ +10 Sonic Blast Keen Shocking Burst, Int 24, Wis 26, Cha 10, speech in Common, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Draconic, Sylvan, plus 2 other languages, special purpose (spread god’s faith) with true resurrection 1/month as its power, plus greater teleport 2/day, mass heal 1/day, true seeing at will, heal 2/day, detect evil at will, feather fall 1/day, wielder doesn’t need to sleep or breath; Ego 67. (9,381,300 gp)
*Bard Spells per Day *[CL 69] 4/4+22/4+22/4+22/4+22/4+21/4+21/1+21/1+21/1+20/1+18/1+18/1+18/1+18/1+17/1+17/1+17/1+17/1+16/1+16 (DC 64+level; +3 enchantment, +1 divination)
*Bard Spells Known*: 6/5/5/5/5/5/4+2 
analyze dweomer, mass charm monster, heroe’s feast, greater scerying, greater shout
greater dispel magic, dream, false vision, greater heroism, mass suggestion
break enchantment, detect scrying, dimension door, dominate person, legend lore, 
charm monster, confusion, dispel magic, displacement, slow
detect thoughts, hold person, mirror image, silence, suggestion, whispering wind
charm person, feather fall, hideous laughter, identify, remove fear
detect magic, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic
*Spells Prepared* (Cleric CL 20, domains charm, nobility; can spontaneously cast Charm spells) 6/5+2+1/5+2+1/5+2+1/5+2+1/5+1+1/4+1+1/4+1+1/4+1+1/4+0+1
9th – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
8th – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
7th – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
6th – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
5th – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
4th – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
3rd – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
2nd – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
1st – spell (DC #), spell (DC #)
*Abilities* Str 24 [7+5 inherent+12 enhancement], Dex 23 [12+5 inherent+6 enhancement], Con 20 [9+5 inherent+6 enhancement], Int 24 [13+5 inherent+6 enhancement], Wis 26 [15+5 inherent+6 enhancement], Cha 118 [16+25 levels+2 feats+5 inherent+70 enhancement]
*SQ* Heal 6/day, detect thoughts [emanation], turn undead (Clr 9) 57/day, evasion [boots]
*Feats *Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Silent Spell, Automatic Silent Spell (2), Automatic Silent Spell (3), Disguised Spell, Divine Might, Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Epic Inspiration, Epic Leadership, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Perform Oratory), Epic Spell Focus (Enchantment), Epic Spellcasting, Great Charisma, Great Charisma (2), Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Heighten Spell, Improved Heighten Spell, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity, Improved Spell Capacity (2), Improved Spell Capacity (3), Improved Spell Capacity (4), Improved Spell Capacity (5), Improved Spell Capacity (6), Improved Spell Capacity (7), Improved Spell Capacity (8), Improved Spell Capacity (9), Improved Spell Capacity (10), Improved Spell Capacity (11), Improved Spell Capacity (12), Improved Spell Capacity (13), Inspire Excellence, Lasting Inspiration, Leadership, Legendary Commander, Multispell, Music of the Gods, Negotiator, Permanent Emanation (detect thoughts), Permanent Emanation (globe of invulnerability), Persistent Spell, Polyglot, Quicken Spell, Ranged Inspiration, Reactive Countersong, Repeat Spell, Skill Focus (Perform Oratory), Silent Spell, Spell Focus (Divination), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Knowledge (heroe’s feast, silence), Spell Penetration, Spontaneous Domain Access (Charm), 
*Skills* Balance +26 [0+6 dex+20 competence], Bluff +58 [0+4 reputation+54 cha], Climb +27 [0+7 str+20 competence], Concentration +28 [23+5 con], Diplomacy +154 [94+54 cha+4 reputation+2 negotiator], Gather Information +107 [49+54 cha+4 reputation], Intimidate +58 [0+54 cha+4 reputation], Jump +27 [0+7 str+20 competence], Knowledge Arcana +111 [103+7 int], Knowledge The Planes +12 [5+7 int], Knowledge Nature +110 [103+7 int], Knowledge Religion +110 [103+7 int], Listen +57 [49+8 wis], Perform Oratory +274 [103+54 cha+4 reputation+3 focus +10 epic focus+100 competence], Perform Wind Instruments +81 [23+54 cha+4 reputation], Sense Motive +10 [0+8 wis+2 negotiator], Spellcraft +210 [103+7 int+100 competence], Speak Language [5], Tumble +26 [0+6 dex+20 competence] [224 bard ranks unassigned]
*Possessions* [79,890,100 gp not allocated]
Tome of X +5 have all been read (825000 gp)
Periapt of Wisdom +6, Health +6 (90000 gp)
Headband of Intellect +6, +100 competence to Spellcraft (15036000 gp)
Gauntlet of Divine Power (CL 100 continuous), +12 Strength enhancement (34160000 gp)
Cloak of Charisma +70, Epic Resistance +10, Spell Resistance 110 (52315000 gp)
Trumpet of the Apocalypse (Widened Holy Word, CL 200) (40000000 gp)
Bracelets of Oratory, +100 competence to Perform Oratory (10000000 gp)
Ring of Universal Energy Immunity (2160000 gp)
Ring of Protection +10 and Ironskin DR 15/adamantine (2600000 gp)
Boots of Swiftness, +6 enhancement to Dexterity, double speed, evasion, jumping not limited by height, +20 competence to Balance, Climb, Jump, & Tumble, haste 20 rounds 3/day via command word.
*Special Abilities* Inspire Courage +8 [50 rounds], Mass Suggestion, Inspire Heroics (18 allies; +5 morale saves, +4 dodge AC, 50 rounds), Song of Freedom, Inspire Greatness (20 allies; +3 HD, +3 competence to attack, +2 competence to Fort, 50 rounds), Suggestion, Inspire Competence (+3 competence, 60', 50 rounds), Fascinate (23 creatures, 180'), Reactive Countersong (Perform check replaces Will save), Bardic Knowledge (+76, max DC 30), Bardic Music (69/day), Prosletyze 3/day (1200 ft., Will DC 29 [21+8 wis], 120 minutes), deific touch 2/day, deific word 2/day, deific face 2/day, deific aura 2/day, Heal 6/day, Inspire Excellence (+4 competence to an ability score, 50 rounds),
*Leadership*: Leadership Score 154 and Legendary Commander implies cohort level 82, and lots of followers (124000 level 1, 12400 level 2, 6200 level 3, 3100 level 4, 1550 level 5, 775 level 6, 389 level 7, 194 level 8, 97 level 9, 48 level 10, 24 level 11, 12 level 12, 6 level 13, 3 level 14, 2 level 15). (~150000 followers)
*Epic Spellcasting*: 30 epic spells per day [arcana, religion, nature] (to be decided)


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## Yair (Jul 30, 2005)

Having read the two detailed suggestions, I can only say there are some great ideas there. I'll mull them over while I head for bed, for it's waaay past my bedtime...

Talk to you tomorrow.


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## Fieari (Jul 30, 2005)

Quick analysis of your Level 100 bard there, by comparing him to various creatures in the Immortal's Handbook.

The Maskim (CR 66, ECL 100) can only hit you ever on a nat 20, although with 8 attacks per round, that should come up often enough.  Since it only hits you on a nat20 any way, it might as well power attack for full, meaning that when it does hit you, it's going to be laying on a world of hurt.  Or, in other words, kill you in roughly nine or ten hits, dice depending.

It can make sneak attacks on you.  Since your Sense Motive is only +10, it can do this practically without fail on every attack.  Adding this in, it lowers the number of hits it needs to make on you to around six or so (again, dice depending).

If it hits, your fort save of +63 gives you a 65% chance of surviving its death attack (and, thusly, a 45% of dying).  It will also be able to hide, in plain sight, from you with no chance of being seen.

You are pretty much immune to its Spell Like Abilities other than Wish (1/day), but then, some of its SLAs aren't offensive in nature and simply help it out in other ways, and your SR won't stop it summoning a Gloom helper.

As for you killing it...

Your Attack Bonus overwhelms its AC, pity you don't have Power Attack to take advantage of that.  You don't penetrate it's DR, so that substracts 25 from every hit you deal.  Furthermore, your weapon deals only nonlethal damage to it, as it has regeneration versus the same things as the DR.

Unfortunately, you seem to have no means of actually dealing it any damage at all.  Hopefully, your party members are better equipped.  Since you can hit it every attack (doing an average of 6.5 nonlethal damage per hit) you can deal it 26 nonlethal a round... but then it heals 25 of that back up.  With HP comperable to your own, you aren't knocking it out any time soon.

Other bard skills... your perform check is sufficient that there's no way its making its save.  So you can easily fascinate the bugger.  I don't see anything indicating it being immune to mind altering effects.  That's a clear advantage for you there.

Hm.  This is a CR 66 to your level 100.  I'd think you'd be able to do better against it.  I mean, yeah, the fascinate thing is a real blow, but the fact that you are not actually capable of killing/seriously hurting it, and it CAN kill/seriously hurt you tells me you might want to think about tweaking your build slightly.  Give your weapon some more traits so you can deal with a wider variety of DRs and Regens.  You've focused so strongly in some skills (the +competence bonus items might actually be broken... personally, I think WotC screwed up when pricing a +skill items) but completely neglected some others, which could be the difference between life and death sometimes.

I mean, when you come across a Maskim, it's going to be hiding first of all, so you likely won't know its there until it's too late.  You don't seem to have any points in spot, and your cleric spells (you know, Scry, Locate XXX, and other divinations) aren't going to be able to penetrate its SR by a longshot (your bard level is high enough not to worry too much about the SR, but I don't see any divinations there)... which means that basically, it can simply hide from you and either you'll never find it, or it'll snipe at you until you die.

Of course, with a full party compliment of level 100 characters, you'll fill in each others weak points, but still.  What if you get seperated for some reason, and Anti-Magic Fields prevent you from communicating for help?  You should still be able to readily deal with a CR 66 challenge...


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 30, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> It took me a long time, but I've just about finished the character I talked about. Here he is below.
> The addition of magic items is extremely significant, in retrospect. They're problematic, but level 100 characters with only level-20 magic items are so significantly weaker it's absurd. If we're to limit the PCs to level-20 gear, we might as well not design this for level 100 characters, the challenge is so very different. The character below, for example, is immune to just about anything as a result of his magic items; without them, he is extremely vulnerable.
> 
> Edit: he isn't quite right for this adventure, but he was still fun to do.
> ...




I don't know, I don't think he is too bad.  It is late at night and I am a bit tired myself, so I didn't go over him with a fine tooth comb, but the brief overview is okay.  Of course with such high level characters I would expect that people would disclose any wierd of overly powerful combos or tatics, like being able to do 1000d6 damage twice a round or something like that, but even with three classes, I don't think you went over board.  i will equip my fighter over the weekend and post him here.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 30, 2005)

Fieari said:
			
		

> Quick analysis of your Level 100 bard there, by comparing him to various creatures in the Immortal's Handbook.
> 
> The Maskim (CR 66, ECL 100) can only hit you ever on a nat 20, although with 8 attacks per round, that should come up often enough. Since it only hits you on a nat20 any way, it might as well power attack for full, meaning that when it does hit you, it's going to be laying on a world of hurt. Or, in other words, kill you in roughly nine or ten hits, dice depending.
> 
> ...




He does have heavy fortification on his armor, meaning he can't be sneak attacked, sucks for rogues .  Also, it would stop critical hits and I am fairly sure death attacks as well, just a note.

Like I said, I didn't go over all of it, but I really like the fact that he didn't go nuts on some obscure prestige class from a long forgotten book and make a total munchkin guy, in fact, kind of a cool character, but you may want to tweak a few things, he does have a few good points about skills and what not.  I'll look it over better again later.


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## Turanil (Jul 30, 2005)

First thing: please don't quote long posts in their entirety, since it slows down the thread upload.

Magical Items: Okay, a +5 flametongue is probably ridiculous for 100th level characters. However, instead of +50 flametongue, I was thinking artifacts (at least lesser artifacts) with weird powers, and inspired by things such as Elric's Stormbringer. Here is an example of epic magic sword as I see it.

-- This +5 shortsword does not deal 1d6+5 of damage, but 3d6 +15 of damage per hit. It's because this is a multi-dimensional sword with 1 normal blade in the normal plane, plus 2 other twin blades that exist in the probability layers of alternate dimensions. As such, this sword ignores incorporeality and damage reduction. Then, once per day, it can invoke a multidimensional swirling of blades (duration: 5 minutes), so it deals 10d6 +50 of damage per hit, as 10 twin blades operate simultaneously. Additionally, once per day the blade can cast a Blade Barrier spell of 5 foot radius around the wielder, and that moves with him.


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## Yair (Jul 30, 2005)

Fieari said:
			
		

> Quick analysis of your Level 100 bard there... [SNIP]



It's a somewhat minmaxed build, but by no means is it a build focused on combat competence. That said...

If forced into combat he has Heavy Fortification making it immune to critical hits (and sneak attack/death attack), and with the divine might feat deals about 108 hp of damage per critical hit (which is every fourth blow), or about 84 on a regular hit, with four attacks per round; that's 360 hp per round (before haste or other buffs), or 260 per round against DR 25; how much hit points does this Maskim has? Remember also that he'll cast quickened healing/buffing spells on himself during the fight, and that his sword can further assist him - and that he can also attempt to escape for a few rounds to cast more healing/buffing.

He would prefer to affect him with enchantment spells, however (which he can use even on creatures immune to them). Like a level 19 (heightened) dominate monster, with DC 86 and caster level 70, or an epic spell (he's got plenty of those, which I haven't gotten to yet!). While he's at it, he'll throw a couple of quickened buff/healing spells on himself.

And like any bard, yes, he's somewhat imcompetent as he works better at charming people with his skills and buffing party members than in dealing direct damage. This heightened spell, for example, is far weaker than what an equal-level wizard could whip out, and probably won't affect anything with SR and CR near his level. 
But consider he can walk into a city and within a few hours have some 250000 fanatic followers, and that he can talk any hostile opponent into a fantatic follower by the RAW... that may not be an impressive damage output, but for me it has an epic feel. He's a holy prophet, and is pretty good at being one.


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## Yair (Jul 30, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Magical Items: Okay, a +5 flametongue is probably ridiculous for 100th level characters. However, instead of +50 flametongue, I was thinking artifacts (at least lesser artifacts) with weird powers, and inspired by things such as Elric's Stormbringer. Here is an example of epic magic sword as I see it.
> 
> -- This +5 shortsword does not deal 1d6+5 of damage, but 3d6 +15 of damage per hit. It's because this is a multi-dimensional sword with 1 normal blade in the normal plane, plus 2 other twin blades that exist in the probability layers of alternate dimensions. As such, this sword ignores incorporeality and damage reduction. Then, once per day, it can invoke a multidimensional swirling of blades (duration: 5 minutes), so it deals 10d6 +50 of damage per hit, as 10 twin blades operate simultaneously. Additionally, once per day the blade can cast a Blade Barrier spell of 5 foot radius around the wielder, and that moves with him.




But why can't this be done with standard rules for epic items? Why artifacts? Certainly, it would be difficilt to reproduce this exact sword using Epic rules, but they can produce some awesome stuff that, with the right fluff, can sound pretty epic.
I'll try to do your sword as an epic magic item, see you later today...


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## Yair (Jul 30, 2005)

Obviously, Turnail’s weapon cannot be given a price according the core guidelines, although I still think the core rules can provide a reasonable estimate of it’s cost. Following a little closer to the guidelines, here’s my representation of the same basic idea.

*The Dimensional Sword* 
This weapon appears as a blurry straight blade surrounded by fleeting shadows of other blades that dance around it, stoky, short blades of all sorts. In truth it has no single blade, being an amalgam of a multitude of blades scattered over different dimensions. It can be wielded as a +7 shortsword, but because of its numerous blade types it ignores any DR and affects incorporeal targets. The blades even seep through to the ethereal plane, and can affect ethereal targets as if the wielder was on the ethereal plane [but not the other way around?]. For every hit three blades are considered to have hit the target, which thus sustains 3d6 base damage instead of 1d6. However, Strength bonus, sneak attack damage, and other cumulative damage sources apply only once. 

  In addition, the wielder may command the sword to surround himself with whirling blades, inflicting 15d6 damage to anyone within 5 feet of him (Reflex DC 21 for half damage). These additional blades appear for only an instant, but ignore DR and can damage incorporeal and ethereal creatures just like the regular blades.

  Last, once per round, the dimensional sword can hack its target and scatter her remains across untold dimensions. The wielder may designate any one target he has hit this round, even with a touch attack. If the target succeeds at a Fortitude save (DC 26), she suffers 10d6 extra damage from the whirling blades. If she fails the save, she still suffers the extra damage but is also destroyed (as per the _destruction _spell) unless she succeeds in a spell resistance check against the sword. This ability can affect objects as well as creatures.

_Caster Level_ 23; _Prerequisites_ Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, quickened _destruction_, _blade barrier_, _chaos hammer_, _order’s wrath_, _ironwood_, _etherealness_, _plane shift_, _disintegrate_; _Market Price_ 13,144,912 gp; _Cost to Create_ 6,572,757 gp + 141,449 XP.

As a foundation, I take the Mace of Ruin (+7 weapon, ignores DR and criticals objects and constructs) for 1000312 gp. I ignored the object shtick, it isn’t fitting, but applied the disintegrate towards harming objects with dimensional shredding, so I kept everything as-is.
To allow it an extra +2d6 base damage, I figured I’ll the Anarchic, Axiomatic, and the same ability for Neutrally-aligned targets; that’s another +6 bonus. It isn’t quite the same as the damage is multiplied on a critical, but hey we’re paying thrice for getting it once so I call it even.
It’s also has Ghost-touch, for another +1.
Now the etherealness part requires a continuous _etherealness_ effect. That’s a cost of CL x 9 x 2000 x 2 x 1.5 with minimum CL 17. (x2 for 1 minute/level, x1.5 for being an additional power on a slot item)
The _blade barrier_ effect is a command-word blade barrier so costs CL x 6 x 1800 x 1.5. The blade barrier does not remain and is very small, but no SR is allowed and the save is for half only. It may be a little cheap for its price, but I’ll just leave it at that.
The dimensional shredding is a quickened _destruction_ effect,  a truly epic ability. As a use activated ability, it costs CL x 11 x 2000 x 1.5 x 10 (x10 being for epic), with a minimal CL of about 23 (to get that level 11 slot). This sets the CL for the entire item, and also the minimal prime ability modifier (+5).
So we have:
A Mace of Smiting, 1000312 gp
Bonuses increased by +7, the difference being +2940000 gp
+1242000 gp for etherealness.
+372600 gp for the blade barrier, DC 10+6+5
+7590000 gp for the shredding, DC 10+11+5
Total: 13,144,912

There is a lot of hand-waving and assumptions, but still I think it’s better than just throwing artifacts at the adventurers without any regard to game balance.
Not that I know much about game balance at these levels, but I’m hoping the wealth rules hold except for a few loose ends (like the divine power spell).


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## Turanil (Jul 30, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> In addition, the wielder may command the sword to surround himself with whirling blades
> 
> Last, once per round, the dimensional sword can hack its target and scatter her remains across untold dimensions.



Well, I much like what you've done for the sword!   However,  the blade barrier and dimensional hack ability almost at will... isn't this overpowered?


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## Yair (Jul 30, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Well, I much like what you've done for the sword!   However,  the blade barrier and dimensional hack ability almost at will... isn't this overpowered?



Hmm, pergaps.
Again, it's hard to gauge balance at this level. But to activate the blade barrier requires a standard action, so it's expensive. Compare this with a level 100 fighter's full attack or whirlwind attack - and I suspects it will pale in comparison, and even a standard good attack I think could be more lethal. I admit, however, I'm not really sure about this.
The dimensional hack may seem impressive, but the Fort DCs are extremely low for this level, so it effectively adds a quickened level 7 spell each round - which is no big deal for level 100 guys, who can throw around level 29 or epic spells. (For that matter, _true resurrection_ isn't a big deal itself.) Another way to think of it is as adding 10d6 to one attack, which is impressive but then this is the sword's primary shtick.

I basically went by the guidelines as much as I could. But maybe it is too cheap. I suggest instead limiting them to 5/day each; it's the same price by the guidelines, but obviously less effective.


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## CRGreathouse (Jul 31, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I basically went by the guidelines as much as I could. But maybe it is too cheap. I suggest instead limiting them to 5/day each; it's the same price by the guidelines, but obviously less effective.




I don't think it's too cheap at all.  I'd keep it as you have it now.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 31, 2005)

I won't snip comments, but I think that giving people artifacts complicates things slightly since artifacts are immune to a lot of stuff, like almost every mord thron at it.  I do like your blade, very cool, and I wouldn't mind putting things like that in it, but I think Yair is right, we should try to keep things along the epic price scale.  I guess I wouldn't mind a mix of things either, what is everyone elses feelings on this?


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## Turanil (Jul 31, 2005)

Okay, lets say that the multidimensional sword is epic rather than artifact. In any case, I personally like stuff like this rather than a flat-out +50 bonus. The multidimensional sword could probably do as much damage as a +50 sword; however, it's a question of aesthetic. For me +5, maybe +7 is the maximum enhancement an item should get. Otherwise, I do find +10 and beyond items silly (and at +50 totally ridiculous). So my personnal preference is to try to come up with explanations that lead to epic items that don't break the +5/+7 limit. As has been done for the sword. I think something similar could be attempted with other items:

-- *Armor?* It is not a metal armor. It is a bunch of elementals or castle walls that have been put in a warped dimension between the wearer and his environment. When creatures strike at the character, they don't strike at a +7 full-plate armor. No, they unknowingly must bypass several layers of stone walls, metal fortifications or what not. Hence it's next immpossible to hit them, and the character seems to end up with a +50 AC...

-- *Wand of Fire?* It doesn't cast normal fireballs. It opens a channel between the sun and the area where the spell is cast. Try to resist that... It looks like spell DC = 50 and magic resistance doesn't work (only a slim chance that the SR will actually resist the channeling aspect).

I hope you see my point.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 31, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Okay, lets say that the multidimensional sword is epic rather than artifact. In any case, I personally like stuff like this rather than a flat-out +50 bonus. The multidimensional sword could probably do as much damage as a +50 sword; however, it's a question of aesthetic. For me +5, maybe +7 is the maximum enhancement an item should get. Otherwise, I do find +10 and beyond items silly (and at +50 totally ridiculous). So my personnal preference is to try to come up with explanations that lead to epic items that don't break the +5/+7 limit. As has been done for the sword. I think something similar could be attempted with other items:
> 
> -- *Armor?* It is not a metal armor. It is a bunch of elementals or castle walls that have been put in a warped dimension between the wearer and his environment. When creatures strike at the character, they don't strike at a +7 full-plate armor. No, they unknowingly must bypass several layers of stone walls, metal fortifications or what not. Hence it's next immpossible to hit them, and the character seems to end up with a +50 AC...
> 
> ...




Turanil,

  I do see your point and I like your creative input.  I really like how you are going to think out of the box.  I have to ask though, when we design this module, are you we going to post it on ENworld and perhaps a few other places for others to play in, if so, and I thought that was the general plan, then evenutally every metal/castle armor and trans-dimensional sword will have to come down to a D&D stat that the d20 system can handle.  

  I don't mind calling things one thing or another, but if in the end, if a +50 suit of armor has the same protection as a suit +5 of castle fortification (good luck if you pierce the privies ) then why not just call it a +50 suit of armor and give it a really cool history.  Some people do read those descriptions on the items history you know.

  I don't want you too get mad and decide not to help out becuase you may think everyone is harshing down your ideas, we aren't.  I really like your ideas.  But in the end we have to have something that fits in the game and that will be a challange to others who want to run it.  If another DM picks up this module and has his party make characters, they won't have access to your creative mind for a source book, they will go to the EPHB, as broken as it can be.

  In the end, it doesn't really matter if we allow them +50 market price weapons with a +25 weapon enhancement on them or a blade that can cut through dimensions if they do the same general thing in the end.  Does that make sense?  I hope so.

  Anyway, I made a Dwarven Defender since Yair has posted his character, I am posting this one.  He doesn't have gear, but his stats are reflected as if he had certain items to boost stats.  He doesn't have a weapon yet, so his weapon enhancement is not part of his attack bonus.  I could have cheesed him out and taken two paladin levels and two monk levels and a few Legendary Dreadnuaght levels, but I am keeping things simple, one base class and one prestiege class, like I had said.

  He is very tough, over 3,000 HP, 90 dr/-, fast healing 30 and he will be large size due to a permenant enlarge spell so his reach with a large chain would be 15' with improved whirlwind and improved combat reflexes, he should kick some butt.  Of course, I guess it all depends on how we are doing gear, I would waste time with his gear right now cause I think we need to settle that issue before I spend time on a shopping spree.

*Unbreakable: *Male dwarf Ftr12, DD 88; Medium-size humanoid; HD 12d10 (72), 88dl2(612) + 2,400 (CON) + 3 (Toughness) hp 3,087; Init +21 ; Spd 50 ft., fly 60 ft. good; AC 35 (touch 15, + 20 natural + 5 DEX flat-footed 30); Atk +114/+109/+104/+99 melee (2d6+66/18-20/X2 (+1d6 on crit and fort save DC 100 or die) _Chain, Spiked) or max power attacking for 20 _Atk +94/+89/+84/+79 melee (2d6+106/18-20/X2 (+1d6 on crit and fort save DC 100 or die) _Chain, Spiked) _or +110/+105/+100/+95 (ld8+60, +0 _warhammer) _or +91 ranged (2d8+40/19-20/X3, _dwarven _thrower); SQ Dwarf traits; AL LN; SV Fort (55+24=79), Ref (47+21=68), Will (51+17=69), DR 90/-, Fast healing: 30; 
*Str:* 90 + 40 (Base 16 (10), +17 level enhancements, +30 enhancement, +5 inherit, +2 Ioun stone, Great STR XX)
*Dex:* 53 + 21 (Base 12 (4), +4 level enhancements, +30 enhancement, +5 inherit, +2 Ioun stone)
*Con:* 58 + 24 (Base 16 (10), + 2 racial, +3 level enhancements, +30 enhancement, +5 inherit, +2 Ioun stone)
*Int:* 21 + 5 (Base 14 (6), +6 enhancement +5 inherit)
*Wis:* 45 + 17 (Base 8 (0), +30 enhancement +5 inherit, +2 Ioun stone)
*Cha:* 19 + 4 (Base 8 (0), -2 racial, +5 inherit, +6 enhancement, +2 Ioun stone) 
Skills and Feats: Climb +140(100), Jump +140(100), Swim +140(100), Ride +39(18), Tumble +71(50), Spot +117(100), sense motive +117(100) 
Fighter Bonus Feats: Improved Critical (Chain, Spiked), Weapon Focus (Chain, Spiked), Weapon Specialization (Chain, Spiked), Greater Weapon Focus (Chain, Spiked), Greater Weapon Specialization (Chain, Spiked), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chain, Spiked), Epic Weapon Specialization (Chain, Spiked) 
Character level feats to 20th level: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind, Endurance, Toughness 
Epic Character Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Great Strength XX, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Blind Fight, Dire Charge
Epic Dwarven Defender Feats (26): Fast Healing X, Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical (DC 60 + STR40 + dc 100), Damage Reduction II, Epic Prowess X, Epic weapon focus (Chain, Spiked), Improved combat reflexes


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## Yair (Jul 31, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Okay, lets say that the multidimensional sword is epic rather than artifact. In any case, I personally like stuff like this rather than a flat-out +50 bonus. The multidimensional sword could probably do as much damage as a +50 sword; however, it's a question of aesthetic. For me +5, maybe +7 is the maximum enhancement an item should get. Otherwise, I do find +10 and beyond items silly (and at +50 totally ridiculous). So my personnal preference is to try to come up with explanations that lead to epic items that don't break the +5/+7 limit. As has been done for the sword. I think something similar could be attempted with other items:
> 
> ...
> 
> I hope you see my point.



Turnail, you definitely have a talent for flavor. However, I think such unusual explanations should be used sparingly, for else they would lose their impact. For most items/abilities, I think it is better to leave the flavor explanations in the background. Kolshadai's armor, for example, is probably a holy relic of his church enmeshed with legends and mythic flavor - but describing these will be countereffective. It's better, especially for a one-off adventure, to reserve bombastic flavor to a few select items per character at most.

Regarding the Plot: I personally liked Turnail's revised storyline, but I do have two comments I want to make.
1) Characters: The adventure as written presupposes using level 20 adventurers as the initial cast, if I understand correctly. This will be very problematic for most campaigns, as they're not level 20 (mostly far below, a few higher, and so on). I just don't think it's a useful start, people are going to have to make the level 20 characters anyways.
Even if this obstacle is lifted, the next chapter sees these same characters manified to level 100. In other words, what we get is a totally unknown party of level 100 characters. At such a high level, each character's abilities can be so wildly different that I suspect it will be next to impossible to design an adventure that will threaten but not overwhelm the party unless we know exactly who we are dealing with. I think it will be next to impossible to design a "generic" level 100 adventure that will work for any reasonable level 100 party.
I suggest going back to the "pregenerated" strategy. We should design a party of 4 to 6 characters, and fit the adventure to it. Otherwise, I fear the adventure won't be balanced to the party.

2) God: While I really like putting the creator-god into the campaign as Turnail did (especially tying up that schyzophrenia loose end!), I dislike the idea that the other gods defeated him. It's not a religious issue (I'm an atheist), it's just that I feel it downgrades God to god, neutering the grandour of inserting God into things in the first place. 
I suggest having the various gods, along with their creation of the multiverse, be an aspect of God's dementia rather than his defeat. They struggle to keep the god insane, and themselves existing. In struggling to defeat the wizard & cleric the characters hence work to maintain God's insanity, adding a little moral twist: do they defend the multiverse at the cost of the suffering and dementia of God himself? 
Note this also makes any planar travel a travel in a schizophrenic god's mind. I suggest that God's glimmer of sanity will start to unite these different landscapes, leading to them bleeding together in Turnail's confluence of time and dimensions.


----------



## Turanil (Jul 31, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> 2) I suggest having the various gods, along with their creation of the multiverse, be an aspect of God's dementia rather than his defeat. They struggle to keep the god insane, and themselves existing.



Okay. Different fluff for the same story.


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## Romnipotent (Jul 31, 2005)

A god has just died, its a race to see who can collect all the domains first, represented by new artifacts around the planes. Gotta catch em all. God-e-Mons


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## Yair (Jul 31, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Anyway, I made a Dwarven Defender since Yair has posted his character, I am posting this one.  He doesn't have gear, but his stats are reflected as if he had certain items to boost stats.  He doesn't have a weapon yet, so his weapon enhancement is not part of his attack bonus.  I could have cheesed him out and taken two paladin levels and two monk levels and a few Legendary Dreadnuaght levels, but I am keeping things simple, one base class and one prestiege class, like I had said.
> 
> He is very tough, over 3,000 HP, 90 dr/-, fast healing 30 and he will be large size due to a permenant enlarge spell so his reach with a large chain would be 15' with improved whirlwind and improved combat reflexes, he should kick some butt.  Of course, I guess it all depends on how we are doing gear, I would waste time with his gear right now cause I think we need to settle that issue before I spend time on a shopping spree.
> 
> ...



Now, that's scary. It certainly overshadows my poor bard in raw power. Looks very cool, I'll go over him in more detail later.
The only mechanical note I have at first glance is that I believe the Ioun stone provides an enhancement bonus and therefore doesn't stack with the +30 enhancement bonus. That, and doesn't he have too few epic feats? Are those all his 60 epic level plus his x class-gained level epic feats?

I suggest we set up the following guidelines for PC gear and generation:
*PC GENERATION GUIDELINES
- Magic items worth up to 277,000,000 gp *[I don't see a need to limit to to 250 mill, what's the point?]*. No artifacts.
- Sources allowed are PH, DMG, Monster Manual, Epic Level Handbook, Deities and Demigods but no divine ranks *[all avaialable free online, in the SRD]*. DMGII, MMII, MMIII, Faiths and Pantheons, Legends of Avandu, and Immortal's Handbook may also be used but assume the reader is unfamiliar with the source.
- Any magic item in the ELH is allowed. Otherwise, follow the guidelines below.
-- No single item should exceed 50 million gp in price.
-- Ability increases capped at +50 enhancement *[roughly doubles ability at most]*. No non-enhancement/inherent bonuses to Abilities.
-- Skill increases capped at +100 competence *[roughly doubles skill at most]*. No non-competence bonuses to Skills.
-- No limit on weapon enhancement bonus, but a +50 weapon is boring. Be more creative. *[We get +60 to attack from BAB alone, I see no problem with +50 mechanically.]*
-- Epic SR costs Epic costs (x10), capped at 112 *[12+level]*.
- Use the Elite Array or 30 point buy to purchase initial Abilities. Character may be of any age.
- Try to keep in mind changes to Intelligence, as they affect Skill points. [It's a bitch.]
- One base class and up to one prestige or epic prestige class.
- No "dipping" into classes to get cool abiltiies (a few Paladin or Monk levels, etc.)
- No Leadership feats.
You can deviate from the guidelines, but try to not do so by too much.*

Thoughts?


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## Yair (Jul 31, 2005)

I see so far we have a Wizard and a Fighter/Dwarven Defender. (My bard was a nice excercise but I think he does not fit.)
I suggest we come up with 6 pregenerated PCs to playtest and design around, so we're missing the Cleric and Rouge "iconics" plus two "extras". I'll start working on the Rouge.

Edit:
I'm going with a Rouge 50/Shadowdancer 20/Perfect Wight 30. Two PrCs instead of one, yes, but it creates a very shadow-based character between the shadowdancer's shadow jump and companion and the perfect wight's shadow form. Both classes are also sneaky ones, it just works well.


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## DM-Rocco (Jul 31, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Turnail, you definitely have a talent for flavor. However, I think such unusual explanations should be used sparingly, for else they would lose their impact. For most items/abilities, I think it is better to leave the flavor explanations in the background. Kolshadai's armor, for example, is probably a holy relic of his church enmeshed with legends and mythic flavor - but describing these will be countereffective. It's better, especially for a one-off adventure, to reserve bombastic flavor to a few select items per character at most.
> 
> Regarding the Plot: I personally liked Turnail's revised storyline, but I do have two comments I want to make.
> 1) Characters: The adventure as written presupposes using level 20 adventurers as the initial cast, if I understand correctly. This will be very problematic for most campaigns, as they're not level 20 (mostly far below, a few higher, and so on). I just don't think it's a useful start, people are going to have to make the level 20 characters anyways.
> ...




In regards to your first comment, it really doesn't matter what level they start at, I just chose level 20 because it is slightly easier to just ad in the benifets of being 80 more levels Epic, +40 to attack and saves and +20 to ability enhancments, + class feats, bam, you done, kinda.  However, they could easily be any level, they would have to adjust the guidelines for creating a 100th level character, that is all.  The whole reason for it was two fold, 1) people can play their own PCs and maybe get a nice reward in the end, and 2)it solves the endless debate of why would a 100th level character care about anything?

Anyway, hope that helps.

As for Gods, I don't like the idea of the Gods being the creation of an insane Gods mind.  People in role-playing and in reading, get fierce about the history of their Gods and the stories behind them.  I would not want to change the history of how things are and that would, I think.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 1, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Now, that's scary. It certainly overshadows my poor bard in raw power. Looks very cool, I'll go over him in more detail later.
> The only mechanical note I have at first glance is that I believe the Ioun stone provides an enhancement bonus and therefore doesn't stack with the +30 enhancement bonus. That, and doesn't he have too few epic feats? Are those all his 60 epic level plus his x class-gained level epic feats?
> 
> I suggest we set up the following guidelines for PC gear and generation:
> ...




Ioun stones all a source of contention between DMs, they don't clearly state they are an enhancment bonus and the argument is that if it isn't listed it is un-named and stacks with everything, kinda like a dodge bonus.  Really it doesn't matter at this level so I'll take them out, just to save a potential waste of time in discussion.

I would have to do the math again, but I think the configuration would be 27 bonus epic feat for PC leveling levels 20-100 and 26 Dwarven Defender epic feats for class bonus feats levels 11-88 of Dwarven Defender.  So I don't think I missed a feat, but I would take more happily 

Everything looks good on the guidelines, but we are only doing the PHB, the DMG and the EPHB for character creation, the rest of the books are suggested for actually making the module, otherwise, way too many options.  I think that is what we agreed on.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 1, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I see so far we have a Wizard and a Fighter/Dwarven Defender. (My bard was a nice excercise but I think he does not fit.)
> I suggest we come up with 6 pregenerated PCs to playtest and design around, so we're missing the Cleric and Rouge "iconics" plus two "extras". I'll start working on the Rouge.
> 
> Edit:
> I'm going with a Rouge 50/Shadowdancer 20/Perfect Wight 30. Two PrCs instead of one, yes, but it creates a very shadow-based character between the shadowdancer's shadow jump and companion and the perfect wight's shadow form. Both classes are also sneaky ones, it just works well.




I really liked your Bard, I thought it would be really cool for you to use your high diplomacy to summon/convert up an army to fight for us so we can drink beer and smoke cigars.  Oh well, this one will be cool too.  The guy who created the wizard hasn't been back, don't know if he is still playing in this, so far I think just us have then submitted characters.  PCGreathouse was going to make a Paladin I believe.  I can make and play whatever to balance the party if no one wants to play a certain class.

Let us ammend the classes you can choose too:
1 base class
1 prestiege class
1 epic prestige class

You must take at least ten levels in a base class, max out the prestiege class and take at least ten levels in a epic prestiege class.  That way you can't cheese to bad.

Sound fair guys?


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## Yair (Aug 1, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> In regards to your first comment, it really doesn't matter what level they start at, I just chose level 20 because it is slightly easier to just ad in the benifets of being 80 more levels Epic, +40 to attack and saves and +20 to ability enhancments, + class feats, bam, you done, kinda.  However, they could easily be any level, they would have to adjust the guidelines for creating a 100th level character, that is all.  The whole reason for it was two fold, 1) people can play their own PCs and maybe get a nice reward in the end, and 2)it solves the endless debate of why would a 100th level character care about anything?



You know what, there is really no point to discussing this point since we're just going to make our characters and design/playtest the things with them anyways (I think?). So I suggest we just make our characters, and in the adventure provide them as pregenerated PCs along with the guidelines for PC generation if the players want to go that route.
I hence suggest also making a level-20 version of our characters in the adventure, to allow them to participate in the first part of it.


> As for Gods, I don't like the idea of the Gods being the creation of an insane Gods mind.  People in role-playing and in reading, get fierce about the history of their Gods and the stories behind them.  I would not want to change the history of how things are and that would, I think.



Perhaps you are right. Alrignt then, back to the original proposal.


			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Ioun stones all a source of contention between DMs, they don't clearly state they are an enhancment bonus ...



Well, the SRD says it's an enhancement bonus. Maybe it got errat'ed?



> I really liked your Bard, I thought it would be really cool for you to use your high diplomacy to summon/convert up an army to fight for us so we can drink beer and smoke cigars. Oh well, this one will be cool too.



Thanks  Unfortunately, with his insande number of followers he would complicate matters far too heavily for the DM. Not to mention having to build his cohort... There is a reason we said no Leadership feats.


> The guy who created the wizard hasn't been back, don't know if he is still playing in this, so far I think just us have then submitted characters. PCGreathouse was going to make a Paladin I believe. I can make and play whatever to balance the party if no one wants to play a certain class.



I hope the others come and play with us. At any rate, I think we can create the adventure and whatever characters are needed, and I think we could arrange for playtesting with little problem even if participation in the module building itself will be weaker.


> Let us ammend the classes you can choose too:
> 1 base class
> 1 prestiege class
> 1 epic prestige class
> ...



Alright. Frankly, I'm not going to stick too closely to the guidelines if it fits a character concept. At the worst case scenario, you'll offer rejects and I'll amend it. No big deal.

My rouge is progressing nicely, I'm down to choosing magic gear - which is pretty difficult. I expect to post it tomorrow or so.
He's a bit more munchklin, I hope you will forgive me.   

Yair


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## Turanil (Aug 1, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I suggest we come up with 6 pregenerated PCs to playtest and design around, so we're missing the Cleric and Rouge "iconics" plus two "extras". I'll start working on the Rouge.



I suggest for the cleric: Monk 25 - Cleric 70 - Hierophant 5 (but I don't have the book or the time to create him).



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> He's a bit more munchklin, I hope you will forgive me.



Could that be otherwise at level 100?


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## Yair (Aug 1, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> I suggest for the cleric: Monk 25 - Cleric 70 - Hierophant 5 (but I don't have the book or the time to create him).



Oh, you have the book. With time, though, I can't help you.
Creating a level 100 character sure does take a lot of time.


> Could that be otherwise at level 100?


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## Turanil (Aug 1, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> the book



Bookmarked!

However, frankly I don't have time to do that. Also, epic level characters are actually beyond my grasp. When I see what they can do, I think "Wow!... They can do that?!" Concerning this project I want to restrict myself to the Castle in the Void (borrowing from similar stuff I did a long time ago in my munchkin days).


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 1, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> You know what, there is really no point to discussing this point since we're just going to make our characters and design/playtest the things with them anyways (I think?). So I suggest we just make our characters, and in the adventure provide them as pregenerated PCs along with the guidelines for PC generation if the players want to go that route.
> I hence suggest also making a level-20 version of our characters in the adventure, to allow them to participate in the first part of it.




Yes, I think we should make a 100th level pregenerated character and a 20th level version of him, although for game purposes, if we do the trek through the outlands and towards the spire, there are only two events that come to mind where you need to have 20th level stats, a encounter with titans at the base of the tower, which I just thought to add over the course of the last few days, and climbing the spire, which could prove dangerous in a area where no magic works.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Perhaps you are right. Alrignt then, back to the original proposal.




Yeh me, I like being right 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *DM-Rocco*
> _Ioun stones all a source of contention between DMs, they don't clearly state they are an enhancment bonus ..._
> 
> ...




Hmm, I don't read the SRDs, we always just wnet by the books and it is unlisted there, no biggy, simple to change 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Quote:
> I really liked your Bard, I thought it would be really cool for you to use your high diplomacy to summon/convert up an army to fight for us so we can drink beer and smoke cigars. Oh well, this one will be cool too.
> 
> Thanks  Unfortunately, with his insande number of followers he would complicate matters far too heavily for the DM. Not to mention having to build his cohort... There is a reason we said no Leadership feats.




Well, I will miss him, I thought he was cool, and even though he had many followers and a cohort, you could have left them behind or had them prepare defenses for a battle that would be sure to come.  oh well, probably for the best.


			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Quote:
> The guy who created the wizard hasn't been back, don't know if he is still playing in this, so far I think just us have then submitted characters. PCGreathouse was going to make a Paladin I believe. I can make and play whatever to balance the party if no one wants to play a certain class.
> 
> I hope the others come and play with us. At any rate, I think we can create the adventure and whatever characters are needed, and I think we could arrange for playtesting with little problem even if participation in the module building itself will be weaker.




I have enlisted a friend of mine to help out too.  He said he would be up for it, although, he also said he was going to give me a break and DM too, he has thrown 3 different campiagns in front of me, including making characters, and I am still waiting for him to come through .

Well, he should be in, he has a lot of good ideas.  If we have too, we will have to do it ourselves.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Quote:
> Let us ammend the classes you can choose too:
> 1 base class
> 1 prestiege class
> ...




Grrr, you munchkined, you bastard 

Just kidding, anyway, while I don't want to get carried away with the characters, at a 100th level the characters will tend to lean that way anyway.  I could have gotten as much as a 236 dr/- on my dwarven defender, but settled for a pultry 90 dr/- .  Anyway, just try to not blow things up too much.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 1, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Bookmarked!
> 
> However, frankly I don't have time to do that. Also, epic level characters are actually beyond my grasp. When I see what they can do, I think "Wow!... They can do that?!" Concerning this project I want to restrict myself to the Castle in the Void (borrowing from similar stuff I did a long time ago in my munchkin days).




I know you are distancing yourself from the project, which is fine, we'll take all the help we can get, so if you want me to make you a cleric, I can do that, but I might make a change to 20 monk, 75th level Apostle of Peace and 5th Hierophant or something like that.  I always wanted to make one and I think she would fit in well, even though it is not on the list of approved classes.  In this case we would be considering the Apostle of Peace class and Epic Prestiege class for purposes of character creation guidelines.

Unless someone has an objection.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 2, 2005)

Okay, I was messing around with the Apostle of peace.  Kind of a fun little class, hard to play because you have to take a vow of poverty and a vow of non violence.  Right now his strong points are that he has a 128 will save and a 138 AC and mad saves and any weapon that hits him has to make a DC 74 save or shatter and he can nuke evil in a 80 foot radius once, by killing hemself and doing all evil in range 1,800 points of damage.

On the weak side, he inability to carry magic items and his poor spell class list leave him little in the way of options.  Even with me extending the vow of poverty abilities to level 100 I don't think he is near strong enough and he misses out on 25 exalted feats since he runs out of those, so I gave him saint for free, but that doesn't do much for him.He has some strengths and might be fun for an experienced player, but without being to attack many things, perhaps he would only be good for a healing medic.

Saint powers:  Holy power - +2 on all powers, Holy touch - 1d6 holy damage and 1d8 undead, Spell like ability - guidance, resistance, virtue and bless, Fast heal 10, Immunities - acid, cold, electricity and petrifaction, Keen vision, Protective aura - magic circle against evil and lesser globe of invulnerability, Tongues, Abilities con +2, wis +2 chr +4


Anyway, I went through the trouble of making him so far, so I'll post what I have and if no one else makes a cleric, I'll finish him as our back up.  He has no gear, can have any, and I didn't know if giving him wish spells would break his vow, but I gave him +5 inherit bonuses across the board anyway.
*Saint Morning Star: *Male human Monk 20, Apostle of Peace 80, Saint; Medium-size humanoid; HD 80d4 (240), 20d6(80) + 1,400 (CON) hp 1,720; Init +13; Spd 90 ft., fly 60 ft. good; AC 138/142 evil (touch 80/84, +12 natural + 13 DEX,+53 WIS,+32 exalted, +4 monk AC, +4 evil, deflection +14 flat-footed 125/129); Atk +68/+68/+68/+63/+58 melee (fist) (1d20+9/20/X2 SQ Human traits; AL LN; SV Fort (52+14+23=94), Ref (52+13+23=88), Will (52+53+23=128)
*Str:* 28 + 9 (Base 10 (2), +13 enhancement, +5 inherit)
*Dex:* 36 + 13 (Base 12 (4),+19 enhancement, +5 inherit)
*Con:* 38 + 14 (Base 14 (6),+19 enhancement, +5 inherit)
*Int:* 30 + 10 (Base 10 (2), +15 enhancement, +5 inherit)
*Wis:* 116 + 53 (Base 16 (10), +25 level enhancements, +25 enhancement, +5 inherit, great wisdom XXXXIV )
*Cha:* 44 + 17 (Base 14 (6), +25 enhancement, +5 inherit) 

Skills and Feats: 


Character level feats to 20th level: Power Attack, eschew materials, extend, weapon focus (fists), greater weapon focus (fists), enlarge, empower, maximize, weapon finesse

Epic Character Feats: Exceptional deflection, ignore material component, infinite deflection, positive, reflect arrows, shattering strike, spectral strike, Great Wisdom XXXXV, epic spell, 


Epic Apostle of peace: 


 

Voluntary poverty

+4 exalted AC +32

Bonus exalted feats 51

Endure elements -50 - 140

Exalted strike +5 or +31

Sustenance - doesn’t need to eat

Deflection - +13

Resistance - +23

Ability bonuses 

Wisdom +25

Charisma +25

Dexterity +19

Constitution +19

Intelligence +15

Strength +13

Natural armor +12

Mind shielding - immune to detect thoughts and discern lies and discern alignment

Damage reduction - 50/-evil

Greater sustenance - doesn’t need to breathe

Energy resistance - 70 acid, sonic, electric, fire and cold

Regeneration - 

True seeing

Saint - 2nd ac wisdom bonus

Holy power - +2 on all powers

Holy touch - 1d6 holy damage and 1d8 undead

Spell like ability - guidance, resistance, virtue and bless

Fast heal 10

Immunities - acid, cold, electricity and petrifaction

Keen vision

Protective aura - magic circle against evil and lesser globe of invulnerability

Tongues

Abilities con +2, wis +2 chr +4









29 0f 51

Exalted feats

Consecrate spell

Exalted spell resistance +4 against evil

Exalted turning undead take 3d6

Gift of faith

Fists of heaven

Hands of the healer

Holy ki strike +2d6 holy damage against evil

Nimbus of light

Holy Radiance undead take 1d4/round within ten feet

Holy subdue - can turn lethal damage into non lethal

Non lethal substitution

Purify spell

Resounding blow dc 10+50+ CHR will or 1round cower

Sacred vow

Quell the profane dc 10+50+ CHR fort or 1d4 STR

Sanctify ki strike

Stigmata

Spell focus good

Subduing strike

Touch of golden ice

Vow of abstinence

Vow of chastity

Vow of nonviolence

Vow of obedience

Vow of peace dc 10+50+ CHR will or calm emotions 20 feet radius and +2 natural/deflection and exalted and dc 10+50+ con or shatters weapon

Vow of poverty

Vow of purity

Words of creation


----------



## Yair (Aug 2, 2005)

Turanil said:
			
		

> Bookmarked!



You might also want to check out this one, the same principle but a slightly different design. Both are excellent.



> Concerning this project I want to restrict myself to the Castle in the Void (borrowing from similar stuff I did a long time ago in my munchkin days).



That's unfortunate, you have great ideas. Your input will be missed.   



			
				DM_Rocco said:
			
		

> Anyway, I went through the trouble of making him so far, so I'll post what I have and if no one else makes a cleric, I'll finish him as our back up. He has no gear, can have any, and I didn't know if giving him wish spells would break his vow, but I gave him +5 inherit bonuses across the board anyway.



I don't have the Book of Exalted Deeds, so can't really understand most of this. But it seems the character doesn't mesh well with the Epic rules, so a straight cleric will be better. Ashame, really, it does seem to be an excellent concept.
IMO, making the characters is the EASY part. I think we can whip together a "party" by the end of the week or so, especially with the free time over the weekend. We could manage a more plain cleric if this character doesn't work.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 2, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> You might also want to check out this one, the same principle but a slightly different design. Both are excellent.
> 
> 
> That's unfortunate, you have great ideas. Your input will be missed.
> ...




I thought it would be really fun to make, and it was, but not many people have the exaulted rules book, so I think I'll ask my friend to make a 100th level cleric up.. He plays them well, I think he would do a good job.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 2, 2005)

Yair,


  You seemed to have done some math for what things cost beyond the epic book, can you list that here to same be the pain of making a chart:\ 

  Thanks


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## Yair (Aug 2, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Yair,
> 
> 
> You seemed to have done some math for what things cost beyond the epic book, can you list that here to same be the pain of making a chart:\
> ...



I, eh don't have such a chart to post. I use an XLS spreadsheet, actually, but only to sum things up. It really isn't all that complicated.

I basically follow the prices in the non-Epic SRD, except that Epic items get prices multiplied by 10 (as per the rules).

I attach a wizard character I've spent a little time working on, maybe you'll like how I work. I basically type up some ideas in a text document, follow up with "blocks" for each class or stack of levels, then fill out the blocks with feat and skill choices. Then I paste the template of an empty character sheet and add it all together, I didn't get to that stage with the wizard yet.
The gear I add up on a spreadsheet. This particular spreadsheet also has a sheet for Intelligence and resulting skill ranks, as a wizard Int increases way too many times for me to do the calculations in my head.
The cost format in the cost formula is usually Spell Level x Caster Level x 2000 [or 1800] x 1.0 [or other multiplier, for duration of a constant effect, or charges per day for command-word] x 1.5 [if in an unproper body slot; x2 if no slot] x 1.5 [if it's an ability added beyond the primary ability]. The robe also has a x 0.7 for being a Good-only item. At times, the formula is all made up, where the guidelines are vauge or nonexistent.

Of course, the prices are very wonky and in many cases unclear. Genreally, 5/day costs as much as at will and too cheap constant-effects are the main hurdle. I also very much dislike the fact that an item has only one Caster Level, it throws things out of whack. 

At this point I've got the wizard half-done (feats & consolidation missing - not counting epic magic), and the rouge likewise (equipment and gearing-up missing).

I hope this helps.

Yair


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## Ozmar (Aug 3, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Okay, 100th level module proposal...
> 
> [snip]
> 
> What do you guys think?




COOL!!!!   

I am so stealing that plot. Thanks!

I am just catching up on this thread, so I'll read some more and chime in with my ideas. Don't expect to make a char or anything, but I am definitely working on a similar campaign idea (basically works across a 60-level arc with chars starting at level 1 (in the Realms) and ascending to level 60 and full-blown divine status) and am greatly enjoying this thread.

I think I may adapt and run this adventure arc as the PCs in my campaign hit 20th level. It will be an awesome challenge and introduction into truly Epic adventuring.

Keep it up!

Ozmar the Excited


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## Ozmar (Aug 3, 2005)

Think I'll run a version of this at char level 40. My plot idea is that the creator god (AO) will be first imprisoned by some evil FR gods and then either freed or destroyed by the PCs, leading to a second Time of Troubles during which the PCs (returned to level 40) will be able to slay some gods and acquire divine ranks for themselves.

Oh, minor nitpick (feel free to tell me to shove it if I'm being too picky), but you mentioned several times that people would teleport to Sigil. Well, you can't teleport into Sigil. In fact, you can't teleport from one plane to another plane at all, you need plane shift or gate (or astral travel) or a similar spell to cross planes. Even then, you can't gate or plane shift into Sigil, since the only entrance to Sigil is through a portal, and the Lady controls them. So you can't use gate or plane shift or any mortal spell to enter Sigil. Finally, since the Lady bars gods from entering Sigil, no divine power can enter either. That is, if you want to go "by the book". All this makes Sigil a perfect center point for the plot, since the gods can't intervene to restore order, and must send the 100th level (but still mortal) PCs in to save the cosmos.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 3, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> COOL!!!!
> 
> I am so stealing that plot. Thanks!
> 
> ...




Grrr, steal my ideas, you bastard 

Well, if one of your PCs die on the way to the spire because they can't survive without magic as titans are raining down boulders at them while they are climbing 1,000 miles in a no magic area and they tell you that your adventure is totally gay, just be sure to tell them it was my idea


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## Ozmar (Aug 3, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> ... just be sure to tell them it was my idea




Will do! 

Here is an excerpt of what I am putting together. (Not to hijack the thread or anything...) I am just trying to "outline" how a campaign would work across 60+ levels. I want to run this in the Forgotten Realms.

Each PC is "touched" by the gods, born with a divine spark. They have a Destiny. This will become manifest throughout the campaign.

Levels X-20 will be the Mortal years. You will have various adventures in which you will meet representatives of the gods and become their mortal agents. You may meet dying or deceased deities and become familiar with the concept of divine death. You will gain mortal power and influence across the Realms. You will gain Followers, build Fortresses, and travel the Planes. You will become connected within the divine heirarchy of your patron deity, and gain a metaphysical connection to an outer plane. You will complete an epic quest that will unlock your mortal potential that will enable you to advance into Epic Levels.

Level 21-40 will be the Epic years. Your fame and prestige will grow. You will become mighty among the movers and shakers of the Realms. You will meet and befriend or oppose the mighty NPCs of the Realms (including Elminster, the Symbul, etc...) You will expand your mortal holdings into the Planes, and create power bases from which to expand your influence. You will become the Chosen of your patron deity, and become a high ranking servant in their divine hierarchy. You will oppose rival gods and save the universe from destruction at the hands of elder gods using epic artifacts. As you advance in power, your prestige and influence will grow so that you are constantly sought out by lesser heroes who seek your aid or advice, and you will become the leaders of your organizations and powerful political forces in the Realms.

[note: cut this part out before giving to players...]
[At level 40, an evil god will imprison AO, and the universe will be plunged into deep danger. As the mightiest of all mortals, you will be called upon by your patron gods to travel where gods fear to go to free the creator from this vile prison. You will climb the Spire in the Outlands and reach the creator's prison, but then the universe will be destroyed and reformed in a mockery of its former existence. You will be infused with the divine consciousness of AO, and become 100th level characters in a new, unstable world. You will use your new power to craft epic spells that can be used to restore the universe, you will battle the demons and unimaginably powerful foes that oppose you and free AO from his prison. The world will be restored, and you will be returned to 40th level, but with a divine spark now ignited, with divine rank 0. You will now be immortals.]

But AO will be gone. No one knows if he was destroyed, or is simply withdrawn. This will precipitate a new Time of Troubles, as the evil gods begin to sense an opportunity to seize greater power. You will become caught up in a war among the gods, and as you defeat divine opponents, you will gain divine ranks, at first assuming a portion of their portfolios, and then generating your own portfolios and religions. Ultimately, you will end the wars, perhaps by restoring AO's presence, and finally assume your place among the remaining pantheon of Faerun.

How's that for a campaign arc? Too ambitious?

Here's another thought I've had. I think I'll state this up front for the players:
Your characters will not die permanently. There will always be someone who is interested in restoring you, using whatever magic is required. Death will still be a pain, because it will be a setback to your goals, and because (at higher levels) very powerful adversaries may take great pains to ensure that it is difficult to restore you.

Thus you will want to create a character that has the potential to be engaging across 60 levels of play. This will be an immense challenge, so think long and carefully.


Ozmar the Ambitious DM


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 3, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Think I'll run a version of this at char level 40. My plot idea is that the creator god (AO) will be first imprisoned by some evil FR gods and then either freed or destroyed by the PCs, leading to a second Time of Troubles during which the PCs (returned to level 40) will be able to slay some gods and acquire divine ranks for themselves.
> 
> Oh, minor nitpick (feel free to tell me to shove it if I'm being too picky), but you mentioned several times that people would teleport to Sigil. Well, you can't teleport into Sigil. In fact, you can't teleport from one plane to another plane at all, you need plane shift or gate (or astral travel) or a similar spell to cross planes. Even then, you can't gate or plane shift into Sigil, since the only entrance to Sigil is through a portal, and the Lady controls them. So you can't use gate or plane shift or any mortal spell to enter Sigil. Finally, since the Lady bars gods from entering Sigil, no divine power can enter either. That is, if you want to go "by the book". All this makes Sigil a perfect center point for the plot, since the gods can't intervene to restore order, and must send the 100th level (but still mortal) PCs in to save the cosmos.




By using the term "teleport" I am of course refering to a means in which to go from one place to another, not the spell itself.  So, yes, I know the gods can't enter, and I also know that no magic works on the spire, including divine ranks, and I know that you can only enter Sigil through a portal and that the Lady of Pain controls who enters and who doesn't.  Kinda of why I started out the mayhem at the base of the spire, cause the Gods can't scry or read the future for events that start in the dead zone.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 3, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Will do!
> 
> Here is an excerpt of what I am putting together. (Not to hijack the thread or anything...) I am just trying to "outline" how a campaign would work across 60+ levels. I want to run this in the Forgotten Realms.
> 
> ...




Not bad, interesting, but I would give them the option for a divine rank or more xp.  If you take a divine rank I don't think you can gain levels anymore, and they might prefer that.

Where do you live in Minneapolis?


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 3, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> By using the term "teleport" I am of course refering to a means in which to go from one place to another, not the spell itself.  So, yes, I know the gods can't enter, and I also know that no magic works on the spire, including divine ranks, and I know that you can only enter Sigil through a portal and that the Lady of Pain controls who enters and who doesn't.  Kinda of why I started out the mayhem at the base of the spire, cause the Gods can't scry or read the future for events that start in the dead zone.




OK. Just so we're clear on that.   

So how do the uber-cleric and uber-wizard get the magical ritual started at the top of the Spire? Are we just going to say that they can b/c magic works at the top? After all, Sigil is at the top and magic works fine in Sigil, right? (Nevermind the impossibility of climbing an infinitely tall Spire... we'll just leave that as one of those Epic-level impossible feats that some people can do...)

Ozmar the Credulous


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## Ozmar (Aug 3, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Not bad, interesting, but I would give them the option for a divine rank or more xp.  If you take a divine rank I don't think you can gain levels anymore, and they might prefer that.
> 
> Where do you live in Minneapolis?




That's an interesting thought. I haven't worked out in my mind yet whether or how to combine regular XP-based advancement and divine ranks. I definitely want them to gain divine ranks and take on the gods, and I am not sure if they should also be gaining character levels at the same time.

I live in Cottage Grove. Work in Bloomington. Do you live in the Twin Cities?

Ozmar the Midwesterner


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 3, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> OK. Just so we're clear on that.
> 
> So how do the uber-cleric and uber-wizard get the magical ritual started at the top of the Spire? Are we just going to say that they can b/c magic works at the top? After all, Sigil is at the top and magic works fine in Sigil, right? (Nevermind the impossibility of climbing an infinitely tall Spire... we'll just leave that as one of those Epic-level impossible feats that some people can do...)
> 
> Ozmar the Credulous




Everything has a breaking point, the cleric and the wizard have been camped at the base of the spire of generations, working on epics spells to over come the limitations of magic.  They still can't cast magic, but through epic research, they are able to find a way to release magic events.  While these magic events are in place, with the aid of items of focus that they create, they can cast spells, thus the need to make the magic events happen in the first place.  

Of course, it is unpredictable and tough to control, thus our adventure hook, but is they did manage to do what they wanted, what would they do with that power?  Not sure, perhaps become Gods in the own rite, without the aid of other Gods.  Maybe they are mad at thier fifth grade English teacher or the guidiance counsler who said they would never amount to anything and they want to destroy the cosmos.  Either way, they have powers that the rest of the cosmos doesn't is the short answer.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 3, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> That's an interesting thought. I haven't worked out in my mind yet whether or how to combine regular XP-based advancement and divine ranks. I definitely want them to gain divine ranks and take on the gods, and I am not sure if they should also be gaining character levels at the same time.
> 
> I live in Cottage Grove. Work in Bloomington. Do you live in the Twin Cities?
> 
> Ozmar the Midwesterner




Oh, your a Grover who has to wade through the New Pit to get to work.  Well, that is hardly Minneapolis, sheeze, get off my thread. 

St. Paul, and when I say St. Paul, what I really mean is St. Paul. 

Ah well, I guess you can stay, but no more blatant lies


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## Ozmar (Aug 3, 2005)

Yeah, that pit does suck. But just think what it will do to my prop values when its done (in 5 years or so...)

Actually, I was living in Minneapolis when I wrote my profile. I've since moved to CG. Maybe I should update it...

Edit: Aha!

Ozmar the Updated Grover


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## Yair (Aug 4, 2005)

Ozmar: That's an ambitious campaign indeed! I can't even keep a campaign together over 10 levels.

I finished the rouge character. It can still use fine-tuning, and I didn't do the level-20 version yet, but she's basically done.
I post it in abbreviated form below, and in full glory in the attachment.


*Laila, the Ghost in Shadows CR 100*
Female Halfling Rog 50/ShD 20/PrW 30
NG Small Humanoid (Halfling)
_Uses SRD_
---
*Init* +52; *Senses* darkvision 180 ft.; Listen +233, Spot +242
*Languages* Common, Goblin, Halfling
---
*AC* 96, +5 when incorporeal; touch 55, flat-footed 52; *Concealment* 40% 
*Hp* 3307 (100 HD) *Immune* enchantment, divination, energy drain, energy; *SR* 110
*Fort* +76, *Ref* +99, *Will* +71 (+2 morale vs. fear)
*Spd* 50 ft. (shadow walk at will)
---
*Melee (Incorporeal)* Two-Bladed Sword +109/104/99/94 and +109/104/99/94 (1d6+10+3d6 electricity 18-20/x2+3d6 electricity, and 1d6+10+3d6 cold+1 Con+2d4 negative levels 18-20/x2+3d6 cold)
*Melee* Two-Bladed Sword +78/73/68/63 and +78/73/68/63 (1d6+23+3d6 electricity 18-20/x2+3d6 electricity, and 1d6+16+3d6 cold+1 Con+2d4 negative levels 18-20/x2+3d6 cold) 
*Ranged* Shortbow +120/120/115/110/105 (1d4+22+3d6 cold 19-20/x3+6d6 cold 70’) (Rapid Shot)
*Base Atk* +54; *GRP* +67
*Atk Options* 31d6 lingering crippling (-2 Str) sneak attack, improved legerdemain (6/day), combat reflexes, sneak attack of opportunity, power attack, spellcasting harrier, swarm of arrows, opportunist
*Combat Gear* 
---
*Abilities* Str 36, Dex 98, Con 69, Int 23, Wis 58, Cha 21
*SQ* trapfinding, improved uncanny dodge (level 70), improved evasion, trap sense +11, greater invisibility (CL 20) 6/day, improved legerdemain 6/day, incorporeal 6/day, shadow form 6/day, dexterous fortitude, dexterous will, epic dodge, fast healing 3, haste 3/day, quickened etherealness, defensive roll, slippery mind, shadow illusion, hide in plain sight, shadow jump (5,210 ft.), summon shadow (6 of 13 HD), trap sesne
*Feats*
Alertness, Combat Reflexes, Dexterous Fortitude, Dexterous Will, Dodge, Epic Dodge, Epic Skill Focus (Hide), Epic Skill Focus (Search), Epic Skill Focus (Spot), Epic Speed, Epic Weapon Focus (tbS), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (two-bladed sword), Extended Lifespan, Fast Healing, Great Dexterity, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Darkvision, Improved Darkvision (2), Improved Initiative, Improved Sneak Attack x6, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Lingering Damage, Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Rapid Shot, Run, Self Concealment x4, Skill Focus (Hide), Skill Focus (Search), Skill Focus (Spot), Sneak Attack of Opportunity, Spellcasting Harrier, Stealthy, Superior Initiative, Superior Two Weapon Fighting, Swarm of Arrows, Trap Sense,  Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (tbS), Weapon Focus (bow?) 
*Skills*
Balance +64, Bluff +19, Climb +65, Decipher Script +66, Disable Device +89, Escape Artist +147, Hide +267, Jump +55, Listen +233, Move Silently +251, Open Lock +147, Perform Dance +15, Search +222, Sleight of Hand +104, Spot +242, Swim +23, Tumble +167, Use Magic Device +35, Use Rope +49 [90 Perfect Wraith skill ranks not allocated]
---
*Possessions* [plus 2,119,407 gp, and +5 inherent to all abilties]
_Headband of Intellect_ +6 (36,000 gp)
_Belt of Epic Strength_ +25 (6,250,000 gp)
_Charm of Charisma_ +6 (72,000 gp)
_Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Influence_ (constant mind blank, CL 21), supplying also +40 enhancement to Wisdom and +50 to Constitution. (49,252,000 gp)
_Boots of Shadowy Swiftness_ +50, with Shadow Walk (CL 24) at will (25,220,000 gp)
_Robe of Ethereal Shadows_, it functions as a ghost touch armor granting +11 armor +30 enhancement. The wearer further enjoys a +100 competence bonus to Hide, and can turn ethereal as a quickened action.  (28,797,000 gp)
_Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance_ 110 (9,800,000 gp)
_Animated +1 Buckler of Exceptional Arrow Deflection_ (1,210,150 gp)
_Ghostsoul_, a two-bladed sword. One blade is an adamatine +10 undead dread ghost touch lightning blast keen weapon always sheethed with electricity. The other is a cold iron +10 ghost touch icy blast keen wounding weapon that deals 2d4 negative levels on a hit (Fort DC 25 to release, 5 temporary hp per negative level for 1 hour, 10 on death). Ghostsoul’s wielder is immune to energy drain. (21,144,343 gp)
_Charm of Move Silently_ +100 (20,000,000 gp)
_Charm of Spot_ +100 (20,000,000 gp)
_Charm of Listen_ +100 (20,000,000 gp)
_Charm Search_ +100 (20,000,000 gp)
_Compostie +22 Shortbow of Unerring Accuracy, Icy Blast, Holy Power, Distant Shot, Ghost Touch, Keen _. (50,000,000 gp)
_Ring of Universal Energy Immunity_ (2,160,000 gp)
---
*Special Abilities*:
Skill Mastery (Ex): Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Search,Tumble, Disable Device, Open Lock.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 4, 2005)

Very nice. 


  I have a friend working on a 100th level Cleric and I have started a Wizard.

  If my math is correct, and I am sure it is, and my knowledge of the epic feats is correct, and I am kinda sure it is, I think the 100th level wizard is completely broken.  The other classes are nutty, but they have limits.  Clerics kill almost any undead that walks within 60' of them, rogues can sneaks attack for hundreds of points of damage, Dwarven Defenders can get up to a 250 DR/- but a wizard can do 160,000 points of damage in a single round, and that is if you make your saving throw.  Of course it involves a ton of feats and a Intensifed timestop and a bunch of other fun spells too, but it can be done and without Epic spells.

  Anyway, I'm going to finish him and post him and give you the example of the massive damage combo.  Not because I think we shouldn't have mages, but to show how we may have to limit a few feats.  

  I wonder if that would call for a new optional rule.  Kinda along the lines of 50 hitpoint massive damage death rule.  If you do over a 100,000 points of damage in a single round, have the world makes a saving throw or a portion of it cracks off of the Prime Material Plane and floats into space.


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 5, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> ...a wizard can do 160,000 points of damage in a single round, and that is if you make your saving throw.  Of course it involves a ton of feats and a Intensifed timestop and a bunch of other fun spells too, but it can be done and without Epic spells.




Will you be using 3.5 rules? B/c I don't think that time stop can be used that way anymore (nor even whether it properly should have been in 3.0). In my previous epic campaign, I learned that I had to interpret time stop carefully so it was not eligible for the persistent spell feat. It produces an effect of 1d4+1 apparent rounds, but it's "duration" should be considered instantaneous. And as the current version makes clear, IMO, you cannot "cast" a meteor swarm in time stop and have it "go off" when the time stop effect ends. I played that way for a while, and it is completely broken. Don't do it!

But I do like the massive damage rules for planetary rupture. Cool!


----------



## CRGreathouse (Aug 5, 2005)

Give me a few more days with the character -- I'm out of state for a conference and I'm a little busy to throw the finishing touches on the characters.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 5, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Give me a few more days with the character -- I'm out of state for a conference and I'm a little busy to throw the finishing touches on the characters.




No hurries, Yair and I are having fun making 100th level guys. 



			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Will you be using 3.5 rules? B/c I don't think that time stop can be used that way anymore (nor even whether it properly should have been in 3.0). In my previous epic campaign, I learned that I had to interpret time stop carefully so it was not eligible for the persistent spell feat. It produces an effect of 1d4+1 apparent rounds, but it's "duration" should be considered instantaneous. And as the current version makes clear, IMO, you cannot "cast" a meteor swarm in time stop and have it "go off" when the time stop effect ends. I played that way for a while, and it is completely broken. Don't do it!
> 
> But I do like the massive damage rules for planetary rupture. Cool!




I don't want to get into the math, not yet, way too much, but it involves an Intensified Timestop, 3 feats in multi spell, automatic quicken spell 6, Heightened, twin spell, Improved metamagic 10, Improved spell capasity 10, enhance spell 9, and I can't find the damn feat now, delay spell, but I know there is one that changes the base hit dice from d6 to d8 and d8 to d10 and d10 to d20, I just can't find it.  I swore it was in the EPHB.

Anyway, with an intensified timestop you get ten rounds to cast spells.  You cast enhanced, Twin-spell, quickened, intensified delayed - delay-blast fireballs to go of in ten rounds (5 from delay feat and 5 from the spell)  You can do this 5 times a round from (because you can cast 4 quickened spells a round and with it twined it is basically 10 spells a round) each time having them go from 10 rounds to 9,8,7,6, and then you could either continue to cast more delayed blast fire-balls or switch to Horrid wilting which has a nasty fortitude save and no energy type to be resisted.  Basically do the same thing.

What you end up with when the time stop wears off is a total of 100 spells going of when the delay spell effects take effect.  Each spell doing 100d20, maximized to 2,000 and since it is intensified it is then doubled to 4,000 and twined 8,000 X 100 spells = 800,000 points of damage, save for half .

I haven't worked out all the feats, but that could be a nasty bit of damage and I don't think I used all of the feats I could.

I will flesh out the character and better do the example a bit more clearer to use as an example why we need to stick to the core books we listed above for character creation and perhaps an arguement against allowing Time Stop


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 5, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> No hurries, Yair and I are having fun making 100th level guys.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




NOTE: even if I can't find the feat that increased the hit dice, changing them from d6s into d8s, etc, What you end up with when the time stop wears off is a total of 100 spells going of when the delay spell effects take effect. 

  The delayed blast fireball (which you could change the energy on with arch mage) 100d6, maximized to 600 and since it is intensified it is then doubled to 1,200 and twined 2,400 X 50 spells = 119,000

  The Horrid Wilting does 100d8 maximized to 800 and since it is intensified it is then doubled to 1,600 and twined 3,200  X 50 = 160,000

  119,000 + 160,000 = 279,000 points of damage, save for half .


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## Ozmar (Aug 5, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I don't want to get into the math, not yet, way too much, but it involves an Intensified Timestop, 3 feats in multi spell, automatic quicken spell 6, Heightened, twin spell, Improved metamagic 10, Improved spell capasity 10, enhance spell 9, and I can't find the damn feat now, delay spell, but I know there is one that changes the base hit dice from d6 to d8 and d8 to d10 and d10 to d20, I just can't find it.  I swore it was in the EPHB.




Hmmm... the theory is sound. Perhaps this would work? I would be very interested in seeing it statted out. Mayhaps a powerful bad guy will use this trick against my PCs someday to put them back in their place...

PCs can get so arrogant once they reach 30th level...

Ozmar the Prepared DM


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## Yair (Aug 5, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> No hurries, Yair and I are having fun making 100th level guys



Actually, I'll be leaving on Sunday for two weeks on a conference. I'll keep on working on my rouge a bit, but comes sunday I'll be offline for two weeks.

Regarding the wizard: timestop is broken. Utterly, completely, broken. Of course, lots of stuff is, but still.
What I'm more interested in is how the wizard fares without using timestop. He should still be able to whip out several spells in a single round, but I'm curious as to the save DCs and spellcaster level for SR that he can pull. (In other words: I'm curious how effective he is at affecting others without timestop.)


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## Ozmar (Aug 5, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> (In other words: I'm curious how effective he is at affecting others without timestop.)




Sure... but what if you don't care to eliminate time stop from the game? I am inclined to want to keep everything in unless it is so broken that it dominates everything else in the game.

One thing I did in my game was to create an epic spell that many epic spellcasters developed. Or maybe it was an epic feat...  Anyway, the net effect was that if anyone cast time stop within 300 feet of you, you would be included in that time stop effect. Thus the two of you could battle it out in the time stop. It allowed you to respond to or interfere with whatever the other wizard was doing in his time stop. The net effect was that the archmage PC in my game was very nervous about using time stop, because he didn't want to face the arch-lich in a one-on-one duel for 5 rounds...

Ozmar the Tricky


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## Ozmar (Aug 5, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> One thing I did in my game was to create an epic spell that many epic spellcasters developed. Or maybe it was an epic feat...




Oh yeah! It was the Spell Stowaway feat. I ruled that when applied to Time Stop, the two mages were able to interact with each other during the time stop's apparent duration. Good feat for the Epic Spellcaster to have...


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## Ozmar (Aug 5, 2005)

*Epic Cheese*



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> ...I think the 100th level wizard is completely broken. ...a wizard can do 160,000 points of damage in a single round, and that is if you make your saving throw.  Of course it involves a ton of feats and a Intensifed timestop and a bunch of other fun spells too, but it can be done and without Epic spells.
> 
> Anyway, I'm going to finish him and post him and give you the example of the massive damage combo.  Not because I think we shouldn't have mages, but to show how we may have to limit a few feats.




Here is my analysis of this. 

*Executive Summary:*  The Epic Wizard is not broken, because what you suggest is a very poor tactic that requires the wizard to put ALL of his eggs in one vulnerable tactic. No wizard worth his high intelligence score would do that. It would leave him too vulnerable to survive.

Here is my analysis:

The trick relies on the following feats:

*Non-epic*
*Quicken Spell* - +4 levels
*Twin Spell* - +4 levels
*Delay Spell* - +3 levels
*Maximize Spell* - +3 levels
*Empower Spell* - +2 levels
(no problems here...)

*Epic*
*Intensify Spell * - +7 levels
*Multispell * - you can cast an additional quickened spell, and you can take this multiple times
*Automatic Quicken Spell * - taken three times, this will make all spells quick for free
*Improved Metamagic* - reduces modifiers of all metamagic feats by 1, to a minimum of 1, this will be used multiple times to make MM feats affordable
*Improved Spell Capacity* - used to get higher level spell slots required
*Enhance Spell * - +4 levels, damage cap increases by 10 dice, and this can be taken multiple times (+10 dice, another +4 levels)


This "trick" requires an EXTREME number of Epic Feats. No problem for a 100th level character, but how many do you need to be "really" effective?

Once you intensify time stop, you have ten rounds. So you want to maximize your potential. (Note that you can only get the most out of this trick with the official "Delayed Blast Fireball", however, if you "simply" maximize your time stop, you can use Delay Spell on any spell and get similar effects.)

It would be interesting to create a matrix and detemine how potent Epic level wizards can be if they focus on this trick at epic levels... (I actually kinda did this in Excel. I'll walk through my thoughts here...) In other words, what is their damage potential by character level? It may not be as overwhelming as it appears... (One thing to consider is that if they focus on this trick, then they are not getting any of the other awesome options they could be getting along the way.)

What is the minimum for this trick?

You could use Time Stop normally, and take your chances. But you never know how long it will last! So in order to be certain, you would like to Maximize your Time Stop. But that's +3 levels! So...

*Level 24*

21 - Improved Spell Capacity
23 - Improved Spell Capacity
24 - Improved Spell Capacity

(Note that these feats require 30 ranks, and so are not available until level 27: Intensify Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Improved Metamagic)

We have to assume that he gets a minimum Int to use these upper level spell slots... Which means he needs at least 33 Int at level 21 (34 by level 24).

Now, at 24th level, you can at least maximize your time stop. This gives you one maxed time stop per day (using your 12th level spell slot). How can you fill it?

DBF = Level 7, 20d6. Again, you want to max damage and eliminate uncertainty. But a max DBF uses your 10th-level spell slot, so you can only make one. The rest have to be empowered (+2 levels), and use four 9th-level slots. 

At this point, in order to get anything more, you have to quicken spells (+4 adjust) and delay them (+3 adjust), so that's one 4th level (using the 11th level slot) and up to 4 1st-level spells (using 8th-level slots). There's no decent 4th level spell (i'm just looking at the SRD for now) so let's just heighten a fireball and use magic missiles for the level 1 spell.

Damage output = 120 + 80d6x1.5 + 10d6 + 20d4+20 points. Average damage = 645. This trick uses 4 8th-level, 4 9th-level slots and your 10th-, 11th- and 12th-level slots. Hardly worth in, IMO...

*Level 24 Damage*: 645.

What is the next step? You really want to get that Improved Metamagic, which you can start taking at level 27. You also get a feat at level 26, so what should that be?

There are several feats in this trick that make it sweet, so you want to prepare for the higher levels.

Multispell - this gives you +1 quick spell per round, and its effects stack(!), but we haven't really made best use of the spells we can cast yet. Ultimately, this will be key to multiplying our potential.
Enhance Spell - damage cap increases by 10 dice, but requires +4 slots, and its effects stack. This will also be key, but we really need IM to reduce these slot increases, and AutoQS to get free quickens. (Note: with Sudden MM feats, we could probably eke out a little more damage potential at earlier levels. We haven't committed all of our sub-epic feats yet.)

These feats all require 30 ranks, so a min char level of 27...
Intensify Spell - only need this once, but not before we can make the most out of a regular maximized time stop. Ultimately, we'll want to intensify all our spells.
Automatic Quicken Spell - we will ultimately want this three times to quicken all our spells for free.
Improved Metamagic - this reduces all our spell slot modifiers by 1, and its effects stack. We can't take enough of these, since Enhance Spell can be taken ad infinitum.

*Level 27*

Here's one progression:
26 - Multispell
27 - Improved Metamagic

At level 27, we get immediate gains, because now our trick that cost us these spell slots {12, 11, 10, (x4) 9, (x4) 8} now only costs {11, 8, 9, (x4) 8, (x4) 6} for the same spells. This allows us to up the damage ante a bit... 

Max Time Stop = 11
x5 Max DBF = 9 
x1 Quick Delayed Twin Empowered Fireball = 12
x1 Quick Delayed Empowered Fireball = 10
x3 Quick Delayed Fireball = 8

*Level 27 Damage* : 600 + 10d6x3x1.5 + 10d6x3 = 862 average

At this point, IM is the best way to go until we have the max benefit, and that means 2 more feats...

*Level 30*

29 - Improved Metamagic
30 - Improved Metamagic

Thus at level 30, all MM feats add +1 (the minimum), and we can go to town...

Max Time Stop = 10
x5 Quick Max DBF = 9
x5 Max DBF = 8

This is the "simple plan", which gives us a straight 1200 points of damage. For a little more, we can add...

Max Time Stop = 10
x2 Quick Max Twin Empowered DBF = 11, 12
x5 Max Twin DBF = 9
x3 Quick DBF = 8

This'll give us 1200 + 480 + 40d6x1.5 + 60d6 = 2100 on average

But wait! There's more! We've already taken multispell once, (and by now our Int gives us another 8th-level spell slot) so we can throw in:

x3 Quick DBFs = 8
x2 Quick Max Twin Delayed Fireballs = 7

Which adds another 40d6 + 40 damage. Ok, so it's another 180 points...

*Level 30 Damage: 2280*

So now we're smoking. We have three paths to pursue next: we could try to auto quicken everything, or we could intensify our time stop and start throwing another five rounds of spells (as well as intensifying our fireballs), or we could enhance the fireballs and start getting more damage dice. I really don't know which is better... 

If we intensify, then we are starting to run out of useful spell slots. We're already using all of our top tier spell slots on this trick. Doubling the number of rounds will wipe us out. Similarly, enhancing the damage caps will give a 50% increase, but require higher spell slots. Let's get some free quickenings in first...

*Level 35*

Auto Quicken Plan
32 - Automatic Quicken Spell
33 - Automatic Quicken Spell
35 - Automatic Quicken Spell

Now at 35th level, we do this (all spells are now quick, and we've already taken multispell once):

Max Time Stop = 10
x5 Max Twin DBF = 9
x5 Max DBF = 8
x1 Max DBF = 8
x4 Max Twin Delayed Empowered Fireballs = 7

*Level 35 Damage*:  1200 + 600 + 120 + 960 + 80d6x0.5 = 3020 points  (average)

It still doesn't make sense to Intensify things, b/c it will require two more IM feats to reduce it and (most important) we can't even take full advantage of 10 rounds of time stop, b/c we quickly run out of spell slots! The primary problem is that the first five rounds have to be filled with Delayed DBFs, as those are the only ones that will last past the time stop.

So let's enhance things first, and then look into increasing our spell slots. (note that I haven't taken into account the many ways to continue increasing Int, which drives the number of available high level spell slots. If we can create a +50 Int item, then we can really open this up... But I've only assumed max human int, all level increases are int, +5 inherent, and +6 enhancement.)

*Level 40*

36 - Enhance Spell
38 - Intensify Spell
39 - Improved Metamagic

Hmmm... once we Intensify the Time Stop, we've run out of useful spell slots real quick...

First five rounds, we need to come up with 15 Delayed DBFs (min spell slot 8)
At level 40, we have 6 8s, 5 9s, 2 10s, 1 11, and 1 12...  and the Intense Time Stop takes our 11th level slot. So we can't even fill our "15 spells" that we can cast in our first five rounds... Then we have to fill the next five rounds with modified fireballs, because a delayed enhanced fireball (which equals a regular DBF) has a base level of 5, not 7.

Intense Time Stop = 11
x1 Intense Enhanced Twin Delayed DBF = 12
x2 Intense Delayed DBF = 10
x5 Max Delayed DBF = 9
x6 Delayed DBF = 8
x6 Intense Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 7
x6 Max Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 6
x3 Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 5

*Total level 40 damage*: 360 + 480 + 600 + 120d6 + 1440 + 720 + 60d6 = 4230 damage  (average)

hokay... running low on spell slots... but let's take one more IM and another Multispell... We'll fill the "lower-level" slots with magic missiles.

*Level 42*

41 - Improved Metamagic
42 - Multispell

Intense Time Stop = 10 (note: we can potentially cast 80 spells in the time stop, but we only have 63 prepared spells (not counting cantrips...) - clearly Multispell has lost its value until we increase our number of available spells...)
x2 Intense Enhanced Twin Delayed DBF = 11, 12
x1 Intense Twin Delayed DBF = 10
x5 Intense Delayed DBF = 9
x6 Delayed DBF = 8
(this basically is our limit for the first 5 rounds of time stop... that darn DBF is 7th level!)
x6 Intense Twin Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 7
x6 Intense Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 6
x7 Intense Enhanced Delayed Twin Magic Missiles = 5
x7 Intense Enhanced Delayed Magic Missiles = 4
x7 Intense Delayed Magic Missiles = 3
x7 Delayed Magic Missiles = 2

Wham! Now we're at *level 42 *  with: 1440 + 480 + 1200 + 120d6 + 2880 + 1440 + 1400 + 700 + 350 + 35d4+35 = 10,432 points  on average...

But our poor mage has a "one shot" that eats all his spells. He has only 1st level spells remaining. At 42nd level, I'm thinking that don't cut it. No wizard in his right mind would prepare this monstrosity, because he'd be otherwise defenseless.

But let's continue...

*Level 48*

We now need more and more spell slots. We take more Improved Spell Capacity, but it's use is limited somewhat by our intelligence. Of course, the wizard should be looking for any and all ways to boost his Int, so let's grant him another item that gives him +12 to Int (replacing the old +6), and four more ISC feats... By level 48 he has a 46 Int, and the following spell slots available: 4/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/3/2/2/2/2/1/1

That ought to get us somewhere, right?  A total of 84 non-cantrip spell slots.

Intense Time Stop = 10 
x10 Intense Enhanced Twin Delayed DBF = 16, 15, x2 14, x2 13, x2 12, x2 11
x2 Intense Twin Delayed DBF = x2 10
x7 Intense Delayed DBF = 9
x7 Delayed DBF = 8
(still only using 26 of 40 potential spells in the first five rounds!)
x7 Intense Twin Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 7
x7 Intense Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 6
x8 Intense Enhanced Delayed Twin Magic Missiles = 5
x8 Intense Enhanced Delayed Magic Missiles = 4
x8 Intense Delayed Magic Missiles = 3
x2 Delayed Magic Missiles = 2

Ouch! Still using nearly all our spells, but at *level 48 *  we get: 7200 + 960 + 1680 + 140d6 + 3360 + 1680 + 1600 + 800 + 400 + 10d4+10 = 18,205  (average)

Now we're using lots of high-oomph slots which could be used to enhance more, so lets increase our Enhance feat and take three more IMs to reduce it. We're now at level 54, with a total of 8 IM feats, so all of our MM feats cost +1 slot...

*Level 54*

(Basically, its the same spread, but using enhance whenever possible to generate a heck of a lot more damage...)
Intense Time Stop = 10 
x10 Intense Enhanced Twin Delayed DBF = 16, 15, x2 14, x2 13, x2 12, x2 11
x2 Intense Enhanced Delayed DBF = x2 10
x7 Intense Delayed DBF = 9
x7 Delayed DBF = 8
(still only using 26 of 40 potential spells in the first five rounds!)
x7 Intense Twin Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 7
x7 Intense Delayed Enhanced Fireballs = 6
x8 Intense Enhanced Delayed Twin Magic Missiles = 5
x8 Intense Enhanced Delayed Magic Missiles = 4
x8 Intense Delayed Magic Missiles = 3
x2 Delayed Magic Missiles = 2

*Level 54 Damage*:  9600 + 1280 + 1680 + 140d6 + 4480 + 2240 + 2400 + 1200 + 600 + 10d4+10 = 24,005  (average)

And now we're really running out of options. The only way to really get more "oomph" out of this is to greatly increase our number of spell-slots by increasing out Intelligence and taking more Improved Spell Capacity.

I think I'll leave off at this point. Suffice to say that the character advanced to 100th level can do a great deal of damage (although I'd be surprised to see it up to 160,000... but I'd grant that it may be possible.)

*Conclusion:* Even so, this is a sub-optimal character, b/c he devotes nearly all his resources (and practically all his spell-casting resources) into a one-shot whammy, which, by the way, is not always guaranteed to deliver its damage potential. Energy immunities, improved evasion, or even more prosaic defenses such as incorporeality or simply deceiving the arch-fool-wizard with an illusion or a decoy combine to make this a very poor tactic, IMNSHO...

Ozmar the Epic Number Cruncher


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## Yair (Aug 5, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Ozmar the Epic Number Cruncher



That was some epic number-crunching there indeed.
You're right at these levels and under your assumptions, but I'm not sure these conclusions will still hold at level 100 and with +50 to Int. More importantly, this calculation is not really meant to be a viable tactic as much as to demonstrate the over-effectiveness of the wizard. No one needs to do THAT MUCH damage, but a wizard could partly rely on this tactic to attain immense damage potential without fully investing all his resources into it. He may not reach the full potential we (read: you) are calculating here, but even a fraction of this is truly frightening and unbalanced.

P.S, note the direct damage itself isn't necessarily a winning strategy at level 100. I can certainly see contingent or frequent true resurrections and even more powerful effects at this level.
Or quickened contingent true resurrections, as you don't to wate an action on it...


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## Ozmar (Aug 5, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> ...but even a fraction of this is truly frightening and _unbalanced_.




Ah, but here's my point. I agree it is "frightening", but how can we be sure it is "unbalanced"? "Unbalanced" tells me that it is so overwhelming that it beats out a majority of other tactics, and makes most other character options subpar in comparison. And I don't see that here. I see that it has the potential to be awesome, but what is it compared to his companions and foes? As you said, one little True Res, and his foe bounces right back. We have to consider quite a bit before we can be sure something is "balanced" or "unbalanced" at these levels.

Ozmar the Uncertain


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## Darmanicus (Aug 5, 2005)

Just for a laugh, I wouldn't mind posting a character Rocco? I have problems with my own @18th, (just last session), however I'd love to give it a go.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 6, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Actually, I'll be leaving on Sunday for two weeks on a conference. I'll keep on working on my rouge a bit, but comes sunday I'll be offline for two weeks.
> 
> Regarding the wizard: timestop is broken. Utterly, completely, broken. Of course, lots of stuff is, but still.
> What I'm more interested in is how the wizard fares without using timestop. He should still be able to whip out several spells in a single round, but I'm curious as to the save DCs and spellcaster level for SR that he can pull. (In other words: I'm curious how effective he is at affecting others without timestop.)




I think we may need a disclaimer at the begining of the adventure: NOTE to the DM, no time stops.  We could limit the time stop to a non persistant effect and you can't use meta magic feats on it, but that would be still 2-5 rounds of mayhem.

If you don't take an intensified twined time stop, you could still cast 5+ spells a round, I think they can still hold their own


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 6, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Here is my analysis of this.
> 
> *Executive Summary:* The Epic Wizard is not broken, because what you suggest is a very poor tactic that requires the wizard to put ALL of his eggs in one vulnerable tactic. No wizard worth his high intelligence score would do that. It would leave him too vulnerable to survive.
> 
> ...




Well, nice math.  You know what they say, there are three kinds of people in the world, those that get math and those that don't 

Anyway, you forgot a few things, four come to mind that make it a logical combo that you dismissed.

  1)  Human with a spell prodigy feat (basically starting with a 20 INT for spells) then ad in +25 for level enhancement, +5 inherit and a +30 item enhancement (the max we decided you can go for ability item boosters), that gives him a 80 INT without any Great INT feats.  You have plenty of bonus spells

  2)  By use of the multi spells and the twin spells you are able to do a great manys to get around energy immunity.  Before you cast your intensified twined timestop, you twin a Mords on him or twin a dispel magic on his ring of energy immunity.  You twin these spells because they might be able to cast counter spells and since you can cast 5+ spells a day, you should be able to push at least one through.  Also, if you have Arch Mage levels you can substitue energy types of spells so if they are immune to fire you can do acid.  That is also why you need the delay feat so you can use Horrid Wilting, it is a FORT save so you can't evade it and it doesn't have a damage type, so you can't prevent it.

  3)  At the end of the time stop you cast a wish.  There are feats you can take to make it a permenant spell-like ability usable at will once a round, but even without that, you have a few slots dedicated to wishes and you use your wish to wish that you have the effects that you had just rested for 24 hours.  This gives you back all your spells and heals you, minus the one wish.

  4)  3,250,000 will buy you an improved rod of Excellent Magic that gives you 10,000XP towards a spell.  You can use this to pay for twined wishes.  You will need two of them at least, so one recharges when you cast the wish, as if you had rested for 24 hours.

  So, even though I didn't do the break down completely like you did, I am certain my math is correct so I have to desagree, time stop is very broken.  I figiured out a way to do 400,000 points of damage and that was not all of my feats that I could have taken.

  It is not a bad tactic either if you get your spells back every round.  Yes, wish is broken too, but a little less abused.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 6, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Ah, but here's my point. I agree it is "frightening", but how can we be sure it is "unbalanced"? "Unbalanced" tells me that it is so overwhelming that it beats out a majority of other tactics, and makes most other character options subpar in comparison. And I don't see that here. I see that it has the potential to be awesome, but what is it compared to his companions and foes? As you said, one little True Res, and his foe bounces right back. We have to consider quite a bit before we can be sure something is "balanced" or "unbalanced" at these levels.
> 
> Ozmar the Uncertain




Nice that you are thinking about it, but it is unbalanced and I don't need the Epic Number Crunching Feat to figure that one out 

Look at the other character, the Dwarven defender does about a 100 or so a hit, non crit.  Sure he can do 500-1000 around and yes, he can attack every foe once with 15' feet of himself, but he can't shake the earth with anywhere near the amount of damage a mage can do.  The same can be said about the rogue Yair built.  I'll tell you what, you number crunch the other classes like you did this one and then tell me what you think


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 6, 2005)

Darmanicus said:
			
		

> Just for a laugh, I wouldn't mind posting a character Rocco? I have problems with my own @18th, (just last session), however I'd love to give it a go.




Sure, everyone is welcome to make a character and help in anyway they can. 

Just please read the ground rules and ask us if you want to stray a bit. 

I have made a Dwarven Defender and Yair made a rogue and CRGreathouse had said he was going to make a Paladin and I am struggling with a balanced Wizard and my friend is in the process of making a Cleric, I know that covers a lot of ground, but try not to duplicate characters.

If you are looking for a suggestion, I think a Ranger would kick ass.  At level 100 everyone would be a favored enemy.  You could call him Hatred, or Death or whatever.  The Bane of Enemies feat would give you a +2d6 to all damage and the Improved favored enemey feat normally gives you +1 to all normal abilities for favored enemies (including damage) but with 3.5, I think it would be more inclined with a +2 instead as that adheres tot he spirit of the 3.5 version, which you could take, if you were nuts, 50+ times for an additional 100 points of damage each hit.

Anyway, it does more damage than a fighter.  But feel free to make whatever you would like.





Okay, that's it for me for a while.  I have a D&D PnP game tomorrow and on Sunday I need to spend time with my wife and child and then I have some serious make up time for my players that I DM.  I may not be able to check back here until mid next week, so behave


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## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Ah, but here's my point. I agree it is "frightening", but how can we be sure it is "unbalanced"? "Unbalanced" tells me that it is so overwhelming that it beats out a majority of other tactics, and makes most other character options subpar in comparison. And I don't see that here. I see that it has the potential to be awesome, but what is it compared to his companions and foes? As you said, one little True Res, and his foe bounces right back. We have to consider quite a bit before we can be sure something is "balanced" or "unbalanced" at these levels.
> 
> Ozmar the Uncertain



I tend to agree with DM_Rocco that "brokeness" needs to be considered in relation to other party members. My rouge's main attack is a full round action that does about 2000 hp in total (over two rounds). I suspect that a full attack by the fighter, when fully equipped, will be in the same order or maybe less (but applicable to creatures immune to critical hits). It is these totals that set the scale.
The wizard should be able to do better, as he's expending expensive high-level slots, but not by orders of magnitude.

One thing I disagree with DM_Rocco over is the use of Wish to restore lost spell-slots. Not in my game. A wish, being a level 9 spell, could - at best - restore a level 9 slot in my game. Perhaps level 8. I'll allow a doubling of the number of regained slots per lower spell level, so you'll have, say, two level 8 slots, or 4 level 7 slots, or so on. But that's as powerful as it gets.
Even wish has its limits.


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## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

Hi

Are you accepting characters?
I'd love to make a 100th level rogue-type character.
What sources do you use? Custom magic item?
What are my limitations?

oh, and i would _love_ playing in an epic FR or planescape campaign, also if it started at 1st level (maybe 10th?) with rapid progression.


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## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> Are you accepting characters?
> I'd love to make a 100th level rogue-type character.
> ...



We're always glad to get more contributions. That said, as DM_Rocco said,


			
				DM_Rocco said:
			
		

> I have made a Dwarven Defender and Yair made a rogue and CRGreathouse had said he was going to make a Paladin and I am struggling with a balanced Wizard and my friend is in the process of making a Cleric, I know that covers a lot of ground, but try not to duplicate characters.



The fighter and rouge are posted in this thread. 
My rouge is the sneaky-type, you can make some other rouge type if you want, or some other character, but generally I think repeating the same archetype won't be a good idea.

These are the agreed-upon character generation guidelines:
*PC GENERATION GUIDELINES
- Magic items worth up to 277,000,000 gp. No artifacts.
- Sources allowed for character generation are PH, DMG, Monster Manual, Epic Level Handbook, Deities and Demigods but no divine ranks *[all avaialable free online, in the SRD]*. DMGII, MMII, MMIII, Faiths and Pantheons, Legends of Avandu, and Immortal's Handbook may also be used for adventure design but assume the reader is unfamiliar with the source.
- Any magic item in the ELH is allowed. Otherwise, follow the guidelines below.
-- No single item should exceed 50 million gp in price.
-- Ability increases capped at +50 enhancement *[roughly doubles ability at most]*. No non-enhancement/inherent bonuses to Abilities.
-- Skill increases capped at +100 competence *[roughly doubles skill at most]*. No non-competence bonuses to Skills.
-- No limit on weapon enhancement bonus, but a +50 weapon is boring. Be more creative.
-- Epic SR costs Epic costs (x10), capped at 112 *[12+level]*.
- Use the Elite Array or 30 point buy to purchase initial Abilities. Character may be of any age.
- Try to keep in mind changes to Intelligence, as they affect Skill points. [It's a bitch.]
- One base class and up to one prestige and one epic prestige class.
- No "dipping" into classes to get cool abiltiies (a few Paladin or Monk levels, etc.)
- No Leadership feats.
You can deviate from the guidelines, but try to not do so by too much.*

As for a fast-paced campaign meant to reach epic levels, I'd like that too but I'm not sure how to arrange one. My latest campaign was pretty fast-paced, but only lasted some 5 levels in half a year... (a PnP campaign, PbP are even slower...)


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## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

wow, thanks for summarising the rules, though the thread is only 3 pages, is kinda hard to sort through 

Hmm, my original idea was a sneaky rouge  because I wanted the Void Incarnate prestige class, however, I thought of a character that doesn't really like himself, thus getting the PrC,  and therefore tries to change, thus being less-sneaky, maybe even valiant.


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## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> wow, thanks for summarising the rules, though the thread is only 3 pages, is kinda hard to sort through
> 
> Hmm, my original idea was a sneaky rouge  because I wanted the Void Incarnate prestige class, however, I thought of a character that doesn't really like himself, thus getting the PrC,  and therefore tries to change, thus being less-sneaky, maybe even valiant.



That's a cool prestige class. Better than my Perfect Wight class, me thinks, and along the same general lines. Hmmm....
Frankly, your character may be more interesting. He's got that whole psychological shtick going on. If you want to, you can make him and I'll do another. I already have a nice bard I wouldn't mind playing at all.

[Edit: The bard doesn't quite follow the character generation guidelines as he preceeded them, I'll amend him if needed.]

[Another Edit: I suppse it would be wiser to use the revised version of the Void Incarnate rather than the one you posted to (it's in the "revised and compiled" pdf). 
Some interesting things in the Epic Insights section; when I do some more work on my character, I'll be sure to look into using some of that stuff.]


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## EvilGM (Aug 6, 2005)

100th lvl characters are silly broken.

I'll make a wizard and we can duke it out.  I'll just add a few levels to the one I played in Dar's campaign.  You know... the one he nerfed every session.

(ya ya the cleric is coming too)

100th lvl wizards make me giddy.


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## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

I hope you're allowed to run your bard proselytizer.

Anyway, are we allowed to buy wishes and gain (the maximum) +5 inherent bonus to each ability score?

Are we allowed to take toughness?

So, here's a rough overview of my character, no magic items yet, but they'll be comming soon, I 'm looking forward to meddling with those two daggers 



> PC Sheet
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> PC Name      : Sonasti the untouchable
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ...




I have only added ranks in the skills section,
the Combat Insigt feat (which allows me to use my Int mod instead of Str mod for damage) is from the Epic Insight articles at WotC.

If anyone feels like checking my skills math:
Level 1-21: Rogue
level 22-32: Void Incarnate
Level 33-90: Rogue
Int increased in levels 1-20 (5 times) and 32-71 (10 times)


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## CRGreathouse (Aug 6, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> 2)  By use of the multi spells and the twin spells you are able to do a great manys to get around energy immunity.  Before you cast your intensified twined timestop, you twin a Mords on him or twin a dispel magic on his ring of energy immunity.  You twin these spells because they might be able to cast counter spells and since you can cast 5+ spells a day, you should be able to push at least one through.  Also, if you have Arch Mage levels you can substitue energy types of spells so if they are immune to fire you can do acid.  That is also why you need the delay feat so you can use Horrid Wilting, it is a FORT save so you can't evade it and it doesn't have a damage type, so you can't prevent it.




_Horrid wilting_ is the only way. With the _ring of energy immunity_ so cheap, there's no credible way to deal energy damage without getting into the drawn-out battle to destroy or disarm the ring itself. Having ways of automatically countering _Mord's_ should be standard by level 40 at the latest.

Also, I imagine most "monsters" around the appropriate CR are naturally immune.


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## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Sage, 

Interesting choices. 
As enhancement bonuses to Int increase skill ranks, I wouldn't assign skills until I did magic items and decided at which level he gained such bonuses. With your focus on Int, you should be a master of all skills, very effective. (You can flip back to my example Wizard character if you want a spreadsheet to do that, I attached the one I used. It's pretty basic, mind you - just adding things up.)
I counted some 30 feats or so, I think you're missing some. Perhaps you stopped getting 1 feat per three levels once he turned Epic?
As for buying wishes - well, just buy the Tomes from the DMG, the ones that grant a +5 inherent bonus.
And why wouldn't you be allowed to take toughness? It's a feat like any other.


----------



## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Having ways of automatically countering _Mord's_ should be standard by level 40 at the latest.



I tend to agree, but I'm not sure what these ways _are_. I'm thinking of an improved Spell Immunity through an Epic Spell, personally.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Aug 6, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I tend to agree, but I'm not sure what these ways _are_. I'm thinking of an improved Spell Immunity through an Epic Spell, personally.




Sure, or an improved version of a _ring of counterspells_, or some kind of contingency to cast it as a counterspell, or super-ultra-epic-even-in-your-sleep-mastery-of-counterspelling, or whatnot.


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## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

> Sure, or an improved version of a _ring of counterspells_, or some kind of contingency to cast it as a counterspell, or super-ultra-epic-even-in-your-sleep-mastery-of-counterspelling, or whatnot.




Funny, I just made one of these right before I read that post 

*Vest of Spell Reflection*
Using the reflect seed this vest automatically reflects spells of level 0-9th back on the attacker.
This affects spells targeted on me or spells in which area of effect I'm caught.
 Against epic spells an opposed caster level check is made (item CL: 100) to see if it's reflected.
Price: 50,000,000 gp (when I run the math it should cost 20,000,000 gp [10th level x 100th caster level x 20,000 gp] but I've uped it a bit as it seems so powerful, and the seed DC is 227.

btw. I've maxed out almost all the skills using your suggestion Yair, and I havent selected bonus feats for rogue levels (whoops)
I like my character, If he hits with every attack in a round he bestows 30d4 negative levels


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## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Funny, I just made one of these right before I read that post
> 
> *Vest of Spell Reflection*
> Using the reflect seed this vest automatically reflects spells of level 0-9th back on the attacker.
> ...



Errg, magic items can't mimic epic spells. 
What you can do is take the epic spell it's based on and modify it to have a day-long or longer duration. Then just pay the cost to develop it, and add it to your character's reportoir.
Edit: ah, you ain't an epic spellcaster. Oh well, I guess you'll have to rely on another character to cast such a spell on you.... like my bard!



> btw. I've maxed out almost all the skills using your suggestion Yair, and I havent selected bonus feats for rogue levels (whoops)
> I like my character, If he hits with every attack in a round he bestows 30d4 negative levels



That's.... scary


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## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

> Errg, magic items can't mimic epic spells.




Aww, forgot about that 

And a note to all the spellcasters out there. There's an ioun stone that adds +1 to caster level, since the bonus has no "name" and bonuses with no "name" stack and you can have an infinite amount of ioun stones... well, you do the math.

Oh and I know SR is expensive because it will quickly lead to over-use, but if you buy the cloak in the ELH (SR 40) can you buy it for the normal price (290,000 gp)
btw. for 50,000,000 you only get SR 62


----------



## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

Hey Ozmar, I would like to play in your campaign if you ever start it, I have a character from an fr campaign that didn't last more than 2 sessions


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## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> And a note to all the spellcasters out there. There's an ioun stone that adds +1 to caster level, since the bonus has no "name" and bonuses with no "name" stack and you can have an infinite amount of ioun stones... well, you do the math.



Now that's cheesy. I'd limit it to one such Ioun stone, really.



> Oh and I know SR is expensive because it will quickly lead to over-use, but if you buy the cloak in the ELH (SR 40) can you buy it for the normal price (290,000 gp)
> btw. for 50,000,000 you only get SR 62



Huh? Using your own SRD, the market price on SR is (SR-12)x10,000, or (SR-12)x100,000 for Epic SR by out guidelines. That's 5,000,000 for SR 62, and a maximum of 10,000,000 with SR 112. 
If you just want SR 40 and want to stick to ELH prices, that's fine I guess. But we set out the rules to make it at least SOMEWHAT expensive, I think getting good SR should be worth that.


----------



## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Hey Ozmar, I would like to play in your campaign if you ever start it, I have a character from an fr campaign that didn't last more than 2 sessions



There are quite a few characters from my campaigns that didn't last a single session.   

Yair, the Killer DM


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## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Huh? Using your own SRD, the market price on SR is (SR-12)x10,000, or (SR-12)x100,000 for Epic SR by out guidelines. That's 5,000,000 for SR 62, and a maximum of 10,000,000 with SR 112.




Oh, I thought you wrote the rule because is was x10x10 which would make it 1,000,000 per SR over 12. All other epic items have the x10 price tag, so writing it specifically for SR confused me.


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## Yair (Aug 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Oh, I thought you wrote the rule because is was x10x10 which would make it 1,000,000 per SR over 12. All other epic items have the x10 price tag, so writing it specifically for SR confused me.



I wrote the rule because the ELH implies that, like spellcaster level, SR does not incur the x10 cost multiplier. Compare the price of Mantle of Epic SR to the formula, it follows the formula without the x10.


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## Sage (Aug 6, 2005)

Well Here's my character, it's almost done, though I'll probably have to do a lot of tweaking.
Man, when I read the epic skill DCs... my character is soooooo cool 



> PC Sheet
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> PC Name      : Sonasti the untouchable
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ...


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## Yair (Aug 7, 2005)

Hi all,

I'm going to a conference now and I'll have spatchy internet access at best and no real time for the next two weeks, so I expect not to post till it's over.
I'm looking forward to resuming work on this project when I return!

Yair

P.S, sage: Your character uses a lot of custom made magic items, and some are a bit problematic. For example, you gain a lot of insight, luck, and other bonuses to AC which goes against our guidelines. Some items I have no idea how to price (instant-returning?). Also, you don't need to keep the "old items" in stock, such as the lesser increases to Int.
Anyways, this is just my quick impression from reading it, I don't have time to go over it - my wife is waiting in the door.
I hope I'm not being a jerk, I just want chargen to be as orthodox as possible since I want people that play this adventure to play a level 100 D&D adventure, not someone's house rules.


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## Sage (Aug 7, 2005)

Thouigh you're not here, I'll reply for others to read and respond to.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> P.S, sage: Your character uses a lot of custom made magic items, and some are a bit problematic.



The DMG and ELHB items are really not powerful enough for 100th level (I'd say 50 or 60 if you're pushing it), so custom items are a must.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> For example, you gain a lot of insight, luck, and other bonuses to AC which goes against our guidelines.



I read this as only for ability scores, so diffenrent bonuses for AC (or even attack?) should be in compliance. Remember that different bonuses cost more than enhancement or deflection bonuses (but 10 luck cost less than raising +20 enhancement to +30).



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Some items I have no idea how to price (instant-returning?).



I priced this at +10 market price modifier, and the highest in ELHB is +8, I could raise it to +12? it basically allows my character to throw the same weapon using his full attack.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Also, you don't need to keep the "old items" in stock, such as the lesser increases to Int.



Oh... right 

I've always wanted to see what i could do with so many levels


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I tend to agree with DM_Rocco that "brokeness" needs to be considered in relation to other party members. My rouge's main attack is a full round action that does about 2000 hp in total (over two rounds). I suspect that a full attack by the fighter, when fully equipped, will be in the same order or maybe less (but applicable to creatures immune to critical hits). It is these totals that set the scale.
> The wizard should be able to do better, as he's expending expensive high-level slots, but not by orders of magnitude.
> 
> One thing I disagree with DM_Rocco over is the use of Wish to restore lost spell-slots. Not in my game. A wish, being a level 9 spell, could - at best - restore a level 9 slot in my game. Perhaps level 8. I'll allow a doubling of the number of regained slots per lower spell level, so you'll have, say, two level 8 slots, or 4 level 7 slots, or so on. But that's as powerful as it gets.
> Even wish has its limits.




The wish thing is an option that was listed as a possible wish example.  I wouldn't allow it either and I don't remember where I found that, but it was in a D&D book or a dragon magazine.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

EvilGM said:
			
		

> 100th lvl characters are silly broken.
> 
> I'll make a wizard and we can duke it out. I'll just add a few levels to the one I played in Dar's campaign. You know... the one he nerfed every session.
> 
> ...




Yes, I recall, he nerfed us both every session if you recall. 

Guys, this is the gy I was telling you about.  He is making a cleric for us.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Sage,
> 
> Interesting choices.
> As enhancement bonuses to Int increase skill ranks, I wouldn't assign skills until I did magic items and decided at which level he gained such bonuses. With your focus on Int, you should be a master of all skills, very effective. (You can flip back to my example Wizard character if you want a spreadsheet to do that, I attached the one I used. It's pretty basic, mind you - just adding things up.)
> ...




The gold for a starting 100th level guy is somgthing like 275,000,000.  I knocked it down to 250,000,000 to account for things like keep maintance, henchman payments, running your kingdom and an automatic +5 inherit bonus across the board.  That was one of the original rules, hope that helps.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Sure, or an improved version of a _ring of counterspells_, or some kind of contingency to cast it as a counterspell, or super-ultra-epic-even-in-your-sleep-mastery-of-counterspelling, or whatnot.




Speaking of counterspells, I wanted to give my wizard the feat from forgotten realms where you can counter without a readied action and the one that let's you counter as many times as you want too from the player's guide to the forgotten realms, however, since it is not one of our core books that we agreed on for character creation, I was thinking of making an epic counter spell spell.  Something along the lines of super-ultra-epic-even-in-your-sleep-mastery-of-counterspelling.  Something like that sound fair to you guys?


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Well Here's my character, it's almost done, though I'll probably have to do a lot of tweaking.
> Man, when I read the epic skill DCs... my character is soooooo cool




Sage,
  You can only go as high as a +30 ability modifier enhancments, so no +40 INT bands.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> I'm going to a conference now and I'll have spatchy internet access at best and no real time for the next two weeks, so I expect not to post till it's over.
> I'm looking forward to resuming work on this project when I return!
> ...




Your not being a jerk, we have to have guidelines.  

Sage, you can make custom swords and armor, you can do that with the rules in the DMG and the EPHB or the BOVD or BOED but that is it.  The BOVD and the BOED should be used sparingly though and not from both, one or the other.  If you are evil you must have something that hides your alignment and thoughts and evil weapons since there is a paladin in the party.  I am off too bed, but why don't you go over your character agian and post it.  I'll take a more thorough look then.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Thouigh you're not here, I'll reply for others to read and respond to.




Um... I'll handle that if you don't mind.  let's see if we can get your character on the right page first, okay 



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> The DMG and ELHB items are really not powerful enough for 100th level (I'd say 50 or 60 if you're pushing it), so custom items are a must.




Custom items are going to be apart of it, but no more than a +50 market price and it is to be split evenly between enhancment and non enhancment bonuses.



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> I read this as only for ability scores, so diffenrent bonuses for AC (or even attack?) should be in compliance. Remember that different bonuses cost more than enhancement or deflection bonuses (but 10 luck cost less than raising +20 enhancement to +30).




In the spirit of the game and to get everyone on the same page we need to have, as crazy as it sounds for a 100th level guy, a balance.  Only regular bonuses period.  You can give armor enhancment bonuses.  I could make a character with a 1,000 AC, but that would not be fair or fun.  By running a high dex with bracers of AC +25 and a +25 buckler shield you get a 75 AC.  I would have to take a closer look at your AC, but shy away from the luck bonus, maybe a cloak with a +25 deflection bonus.


any questions?


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## Ozmar (Aug 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Hey Ozmar, I would like to play in your campaign if you ever start it, I have a character from an fr campaign that didn't last more than 2 sessions




Yeah... but you're in Denmark??!?!

I've had players fly in from Virginia before, but that would take the cake.


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## Ozmar (Aug 8, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Well, nice math.  You know what they say, there are three kinds of people in the world, those that get math and those that don't




Thanks. Math major, grad school, etc...



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Anyway, you forgot a few things, four come to mind that make it a logical combo that you dismissed.
> 
> 1)  Human with a spell prodigy feat (basically starting with a 20 INT for spells) then ad in +25 for level enhancement, +5 inherit and a +30 item enhancement (the max we decided you can go for ability item boosters), that gives him a 80 INT without any Great INT feats.  You have plenty of bonus spells




Yeah? Well... Let's look at that for a minute... Let's say our 100th level mage "only" takes enough ISC feats to take full advantage of his 80 Int. (Note that 80 Int is really what's broken here, but that's another issue...) With an 80 Int, he has 4 bonus 23rd level spells, so that means that he has a maximum of 35th level spells (and he has two of those spell slots) so starting from level 1, his bonus spells are 9/9/9/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1, so his total spell slots are 4/13/13/13/12/12/12/12/11/11/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2, for a grand total of 226 non-cantrips per day. (Note that we have assumed he is using 19 of his 28 remaining feats between level 54 and 100 on ISC.)

Not too shabby, BUT, if he wants to maximize his intense time stop potential, he must spend 80 of these 226 spell slots, which is well over 1/3 of his daily potential. (If he "twins" an intense time stop *shudder*, then he will blow 2/3!) I submit that any wizard who uses 1/3 of his spells in one fight, let alone one attack, is hurting. Wizards need to be smarter than this. (Especially ones with 80 Int!)



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> 2)  By use of the multi spells and the twin spells you are able to do a great manys to get around energy immunity.  Before you cast your intensified twined timestop, you twin a Mords on him or twin a dispel magic on his ring of energy immunity.  You twin these spells because they might be able to cast counter spells and since you can cast 5+ spells a day, you should be able to push at least one through.  Also, if you have Arch Mage levels you can substitue energy types of spells so if they are immune to fire you can do acid.  That is also why you need the delay feat so you can use Horrid Wilting, it is a FORT save so you can't evade it and it doesn't have a damage type, so you can't prevent it.




Well, using HW is certainly wise against certain targets. (Although some, I am sure, will be more resistant to it, and it does start at 9th level, and cannot be used in the first five time-stopped rounds.) Of course the key for an Epic Wizard is to know his enemy, and to defeat him with the least expenditure of energy possible. And I like how you are thinking with the other spells as well (although, again, MD is too risky IMO at higher levels, due to the increased liklihood that your target is actually carrying one or more artifacts!) The Epic Wizard certainly needs to consider dozens if not hundreds of variables and choose his tactics with the utmost of care. That's my point really: that this one intensified time stop tactic is not really a good one, and (my second point) is that time stop is not "broken", and (I guess my third point) is that, even without time stop (if you choose to nerf it) the epic wizard is not any less a complex and difficult character to play.



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> 3)  At the end of the time stop you cast a wish.  There are feats you can take to make it a permenant spell-like ability usable at will once a round, but even without that, you have a few slots dedicated to wishes and you use your wish to wish that you have the effects that you had just rested for 24 hours.  This gives you back all your spells and heals you, minus the one wish.




As others have pointed out: [DM] Denied! [/DM] No DM worth their salt would allow this. That's clearly an abusive wish. Anyone wishing that he had just rested 24 hours would (at the very least) be transported into the future precisely 24 hours. At worst, he falls into an unwakable sleep for precisely 24 hours, allowing his foes to loot and/or kill him in the meantime.

And what is this wish usable as a "permanent spell-like ability usable at will once a round"? This is not the first time I've heard of that hack, but when others have told me about it, it turned out that they were wrong by the RAW. Can you tell me how you think it is done? B/c I very much doubt it is possible. (If it is possible by the RAW, then that's another patch I need to make for my game!)

(Open question for all: How can you get wish as a permanent Sp ability? Anyone? Bueller? I'd really like to see this...)



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> 4)  3,250,000 will buy you an improved rod of Excellent Magic that gives you 10,000XP towards a spell.  You can use this to pay for twined wishes.  You will need two of them at least, so one recharges when you cast the wish, as if you had rested for 24 hours.




Eh. *shrug* At this level you've got a few dozen scrolls of wish and 50,000 XP in reserve. But remember that wish is "non-epic" magic. Look out for epic spells. Those might be designed to achieve the effects you suggest, but wish should not.



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> It is not a bad tactic either if you get your spells back every round.  Yes, wish is broken too, but a little less abused.




Well, yeah, big IF. Wish could be broken if the DM allows it to be. Don't allow it, man! Don't give in to the players when they beg. Don't succumb to the temptation to give your NPCs awesome tactics just b/c they can use a wish.



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> So, even though I didn't do the break down completely like you did, I am certain my math is correct so I have to desagree, time stop is very broken.  I figiured out a way to do 400,000 points of damage and that was not all of my feats that I could have taken.




I think you draw the wrong conclusions from the results of this. Sure, you probably can do 400,000 points of damage. But that does not make time stop broken, because the tactics you are using to deliver this much damage are very poor tactics. I believe that the wizard is required to devote way too much of his resources to deliver the payoff, and it is not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination, which makes the tactic subpar.

Anyway... I am tired. Kill time stop if you like, but I recommend that you allow it and wrestle with all the implications. If nothing else, it will be good practice for thinking about all the OTHER thousands of possible tricks (epic spells, nasty spell combos, etc...) that a 100th level wizard might have up his robes.

Ozmar the Weary DM  

[Edited for clarity - removed (some) spelling errors.]


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 8, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I'll tell you what, you number crunch the other classes like you did this one and then tell me what you think




Hah!   :\ 

Sorry! My Epic Number Crunching Feat is only usable once a week, and I need it this coming week to prepare for my vacation... Maybe I'll get one more in, but I expect to be pretty pre-occupied with final travel prep.

Ozmar the Horizon Walker


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 8, 2005)

Okay, a quick break down of Unbreakable's gear.  Perhaps some one would do the math for me on the shield, armor and weapons, and I think I was fair with the rest of the items as far as price goes, but I am not into squaring numbers and such, so feel free to check them too.  I didn't total anything just yet, just getting a feel for what things cost at this level.

Mithril/Ysgardian Heartwire full plate +25, ever bright +1, Soul fire +4, Empyreal +2, heavy fortification +5, great reflection +10, negating +5, greater fire, acid, cold, electric and sonic resistance *502,650 + a +42 epic armor enhancement market price*

Spiked Shield, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, +12 weapon enhancement, Infinite arrow deflection +6, ghost touch +3, Empyreal +2, *101,150 + 40 epic armor enhancement market price *

Spiked Shield, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, exception arrow deflection +8, ghost touch +1, +12 weapon enhancement, Empyreal +2, 101,150 + 40 epic armor enhancement market price

Large, Adamantine spiked chain +25 weapon enhancement, brilliant energy +4, keen +1, speed +3, Ghost touch +1, ever dancing +8, holy power +8 203,000 + 40 epic weapon enhancement market price

Large, Adamantine spiked chain +25 ghost touch +1, keen +1, Holy x2 +4, speed +3, ever dancing +8, holy power +8 203,000 + 40 epic weapon enhancement market price

Bracers of relentless might - +30 strength and +30 constitution 18,000,000?

Helm of Wisdom +30 - grants a +100 competence bonus to Sense motive and spot 49,000,000

Epic ring reflection +10 deflection AC 2,000,000

Ring of Solar wings - 118,000

Anti-magic shackles - 132,000

_Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Influence_ and sequestering 300,000

_Animated +1 Buckler of Exceptional Arrow Deflection_ (1,210,150 gp)

_Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance_ 110 that also acts as a Star mantle cloak - 9,932,000

Universal ring of energy immunity 2,160,000

Improved advanced boots of swiftness - as per the boots of swiftness but with a +30 to dexterity instead of a +6 dexterity. 9,220,000 

Remeber, there are three kinds of people in the world, those that understand math, and those that don't


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I tend to agree with DM_Rocco that "brokeness" needs to be considered in relation to other party members. My rouge's main attack is a full round action that does about 2000 hp in total (over two rounds). I suspect that a full attack by the fighter, when fully equipped, will be in the same order or maybe less (but applicable to creatures immune to critical hits). It is these totals that set the scale.
> The wizard should be able to do better, as he's expending expensive high-level slots, but not by orders of magnitude.




Well, I would expect/hope that the wiz would do tons more than any other char with the tactic that DM-Rocco suggest, b/c he's expending 33 to 100% of his spell resources to do it! Whereas a 100th level fighter can deliver 1000 points a round, and can keep it up ALL DAY, the wizard can deal 400,000 points and do it maybe 2-3 times before he is helpless as a 100 HD baby...



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> One thing I disagree with DM_Rocco over is the use of Wish to restore lost spell-slots. Not in my game. A wish, being a level 9 spell, could - at best - restore a level 9 slot in my game. Perhaps level 8. I'll allow a doubling of the number of regained slots per lower spell level, so you'll have, say, two level 8 slots, or 4 level 7 slots, or so on. But that's as powerful as it gets.
> Even wish has its limits.




Agreed with you there, Yair!

Ozmar the Agreeable


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## Ozmar (Aug 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Sonasti the untouchable




I'd comment on this guy, but I can't see him!

(OK, bad joke... I'm tired...)

Ozmar the Pointless Comic


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> And a note to all the spellcasters out there. There's an ioun stone that adds +1 to caster level, since the bonus has no "name" and bonuses with no "name" stack and you can have an infinite amount of ioun stones... well, you do the math.




Don't forget to develop an epic spell to see through the dense cloud around your head.

(Anyone have stats for an Ioun Stone Swarm? Hmmm... I'm getting ideas for a weird NPC opponent...)

Ozmar the Ioun Stone Wrangler


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## Anabstercorian (Aug 8, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Don't forget to develop an epic spell to see through the dense cloud around your head.
> 
> (Anyone have stats for an Ioun Stone Swarm? Hmmm... I'm getting ideas for a weird NPC opponent...)
> 
> Ozmar the Ioun Stone Wrangler




It's one of the golems in Upper Krust's Immortal Beastiary.


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## Sage (Aug 8, 2005)

> PC Sheet
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> PC Name      : Sonasti the untouchable
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ...




*Places where I haven't followed the rules:
1. *Instant-returning ability in first 2 weapons, this allows me to make the full attack action while only having 2 daggers to throw. As I've already said, I gave it a +10 enhancement bonus price tag which is more than anything in the ELHB, I could up it to +12?
This could be done with a variation of the instant summons spell (9th level?) and would cost 9*17*2,000*0,5 + 100,000 = 253,000 gp
or with a quickened instant summons spell: 11*23*20,000*0,5 + 100,000 = 2,630,000 gp
I think a +10 market price modifier (which raises the price of the weapon with 16,800,000 gp) is more than reasonable.
*2. *She soul-drinking ability of the first 2 weapons, this is taken from the "specific magic weapon" souldrinker which is priced at 478,335. I've paid over double that for each weapon as a shortcut, though I could probably pay less if I did the math.
*3. *Ring of very rapid healing, the price for this one I've put at 2,000,000 gp which (as noted) is almost 7 times as much as the equilavent ring of rapid healing in ELHB, which give fast healing 3. The catch is that with my ring you gain it as soon as you put it on, in the original you have to wait 24 hours. This is to bypass the obvious difficulty of having to wait 24 hours every time I pass through an antimagic sphere.

You'll notice I kept all enhancement bonuses under +50.

On alignment: My character is True Neutral, he want's to be good, but is having a hard time of it. Thanks to my PrC neither me nor my equipment give out _any auras_, including alignment.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 9, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> I think you draw the wrong conclusions from the results of this. Sure, you probably can do 400,000 points of damage. But that does not make time stop broken, because the tactics you are using to deliver this much damage are very poor tactics. I believe that the wizard is required to devote way too much of his resources to deliver the payoff, and it is not a sure thing by any stretch of the imagination, which makes the tactic subpar.
> 
> Anyway... I am tired. Kill time stop if you like, but I recommend that you allow it and wrestle with all the implications. If nothing else, it will be good practice for thinking about all the OTHER thousands of possible tricks (epic spells, nasty spell combos, etc...) that a 100th level wizard might have up his robes.
> 
> ...





I am weary of the topic too, but just a quick last note, you will never have to do 400,000 points of damage.  While the tatic many seem poor, the point is it is possible.  If that is possible, it is probable that your wizard can an will deal out at least 20,000 a round, enough to kill a god in one round.  That would not even begin to tax his magic reserve, the example of 400,000 points of damage was just for over kill. 

Now do you think the wizard is broken


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 9, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> *Places where I haven't followed the rules:*
> *1. *Instant-returning ability in first 2 weapons, this allows me to make the full attack action while only having 2 daggers to throw. As I've already said, I gave it a +10 enhancement bonus price tag which is more than anything in the ELHB, I could up it to +12?
> This could be done with a variation of the instant summons spell (9th level?) and would cost 9*17*2,000*0,5 + 100,000 = 253,000 gp
> or with a quickened instant summons spell: 11*23*20,000*0,5 + 100,000 = 2,630,000 gp
> ...




Okay, first thing is first, you did a good job on remaking him.  That said, a few concerns.

1)  you know that you have two items that increase INT with an enhancement bonus?  You can have two, but they don't stack.  If one is for back up, that is fine, I plan on something like that too.


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Headband of Brilliance
> -+30 enhancement bonus to Int
> -Price: 9,000,000 gp
> 
> ...




2)  I don't see anything wrong with these boots, but I would like to see how you came up with the price.  In 3.5 hasted items last about ten rounds or as per spell, so I would like to see what you used as a base for Continuous haste.


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Boots of butt-kicking really fast
> -Continuous haste on wearer
> -Continuous spider-climb on wearer
> -Price: 165,000 gp.




3)Again, I don't have a problem with invisibility at will, but would like to see what you used as a base pricing guide.


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Amulet of the eye
> -Grants wearer greater invisibility at will, true seeing at will, read-magic at will, and greater arcane sight at will
> -Price: 971,500 gp.




4) No way, are you nuts!!! Just kidding.  Ha, you thought I didn't have a snese of humor 


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity
> -Immunity to acid, cold, electricity, fire and sonic damage
> -Price: 2,160,000 gp.




5) I think it would be safe to say that at this level you would have something like this, but how do you come to the price?


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Ear-ring of Death Ward
> -Continual Death Ward spell on wearer
> -Price: 224,000 gp.




6)  Hmm, taking a few liberties I see.  Well, you know that the bonus with mage armor doesn't stack with other armor bonuses?  fairly certain the same is true with the shield.  I would suggest a +5 enhancment to AC (armor) and a +25 Deflection bonus and leave it at that.  Pay a bit more because you are moving a deflection bonus from a ring to a shirt.  Then I would make a buckler shield with a +25 AC (shield) and infinite arrow deflection, or something like that.


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Suit of protection (takes the place of shirt)
> This is a series of silk cloths woven around most of the body
> leaving many stray peices that whirl un the wind or under movement
> They grant:
> ...




7)  Okay, I see nothing wrong with a flight item, but since earrings are not a real item slot, perhaps you should combine these items with something else, like a ring?


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Ear-ring of flight
> Grants the wearer a fly speed of 60 ft, good maneuverability
> Price: 120,000 gp.





As for your weapons, I would have to consult CRGreathouse or Yair for in put inregards to your automatic returning.  On the surface I think it sounds fair, but I think it may be under priced or abusive.  Specially with the sould drinking and triple shot ability.

CRGreathouse, what do you think?

As for the class, ihaven't seen it yet, but if it was okay with Yair, then I am sure it is fine.


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## Ozmar (Aug 9, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I am weary of the topic too, but just a quick last note, you will never have to do 400,000 points of damage.  While the tatic many seem poor, the point is it is possible.  If that is possible, it is probable that your wizard can an will deal out at least 20,000 a round, enough to kill a god in one round.  That would not even begin to tax his magic reserve, the example of 400,000 points of damage was just for over kill.
> 
> Now do you think the wizard is broken




No.   

I agree. The wiz probably can/should be able to dish out 20,000 damage on a semi-regular basis. Where I disagree (because I am not certain) is in deciding whether the wiz a) could kill a god, or b) is broken.

On the one hand, I'll readily agree that magic (of any kind) is basically awesome after, oh, say 12th level, positively beating out non-spell-casting classes (IMO) in terms of utility and/or playing enjoyment. The higher level you are, the more and more necessary it is to have magic in order to pursue one's profession (and here I am, of course, including the PC's reliance on powerful magical items).

But on the other hand, is the wizard "broken"? "Broken" to me suggests something that needs to be fixed in order to make the game fun. I am not sure that is needed. I think the game can be fun even with the wiz's ability to deal mega-damage with his spells. But of course, I haven't "tested" that theory, so I am not certain.

And it is also not clear to me that a wiz could kill a god. Certainly gods don't have 20,000 hit points, but I don't see how the 100th level wizard could reliably deal the damage. I've been "researching" various deities to understand how to run a divine-level campaign, and they are potent forces. As you might expect, there is very little they cannot do, and salient divine abilities grant them a ton of options. If nothing else, many of them automatically succeed any saving throw, have very high SR, and have salient divine abilities (to say nothing of divine realms and avatars and eternity to plan survival strategies) that would protect them from such tricks.

The biggest challenge I forsee is Mystra, since she can cut off any being, mortal or divine, from the Weave. But I have been told that she's basically forbidden from doing this by Ao. I am not sure how it will play out...

Later!
Ozmar the Scholar of the Divine


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## Sage (Aug 9, 2005)

Thanks 

Anyway, the second int booster is for backup.

*Price for use-activated or continuous effects:
*Spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp
Note: If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.


*Price breakdowns:
*Boots of butt-kicking really fast.
Continuous haste (D: 1 r/lvl): 3*5*2,000*4 = 120,000 gp
Continuous spider-climb (D: 10 min/lvl): 2*3*2,000*1.5 = 18.000 gp
Price: 138,000 gp (hmm... I previously got this to 165,000 gp... wierd)

Amulet of the Eye
Greater Invisibility (D: 1 r/lvl): 4*7*2,000*4 = 224,000 gp
True Seeing (D: 1 min/lvl): 6*11*2,000*2 =  264,000 gp
Read magic (D: 10 min/lvl): 0.5*1*2,000*1.5 = 1500 gp
Greater Arcane Sight (D: 1 min/lvl): 7*13*2,000*2 = 364,000
Price: 853,500 gp (uh... I better check my math on the others )

Ear-ring of death ward
Note: An item that doesn't take up a space on the body costs double
Death Ward (D: 1 min/lvl): 4*7*2,000*2*2 = 224,000 gp

Ear-ring of flight:
fly (D: 1 min/lvl): 3*5*2,000*2*2 = 120,000 gp

Suit of protection 
Right, I forgot to include this in "where I didn't follow the rules".
This is a bit cheesy, but I don't think it's too far out.
First we create a permanent mage armor and shield spell (point: they're invisible and dont have and Armor Check Penalty or Max Dex ponus)
They grant armor and shield bonuses to AC, respectively.
Then we enchant the permanent mage armor adding an enhancement bonus.
Do the same to shield.
Add Deflection bonus (I should probably move this to another item).
You yourself suggested


			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> By running a high dex with bracers of AC +25 and a +25 buckler shield you get a 75 AC. I would have to take a closer look at your AC, but shy away from the luck bonus, maybe a cloak with a +25 deflection bonus.



So in keeping with the spirit of that:

Suit of Protection
Continuous Mage armor (D: 1 hour/lvl): 1*1*2,000*1,5 = 3,000 gp 
Continuous Shield (D: 1 min/lvl):1*1*2,000*2 =4,000 gp
Enhancement bonus for armor: 25^2*10,000 = 6,250,000 (same for shield)
Final Price: 12,507,000 gp
​ I could split this into two items (one for shield and one for armor) but that would cost the same (unless of course, I've run out of magic item spaces).

Prestige Class: can be found in the Epic Insight, Compiled and Updated pdf from Wizards' site.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 10, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Thanks
> 
> Anyway, the second int booster is for backup.
> 
> ...




You still can't stack two armor sources though.

So you think your good at math huh, well try this out.

How much would a diamond cost that had a widened permenant anti-magic shell on it? 

How much to have a glove of storing that could break the anti-magic field and store it at the ready? 

Hey, scroll up and check my items, I need a price on a few of them.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Aug 10, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> As for your weapons, I would have to consult CRGreathouse or Yair for in put inregards to your automatic returning.  On the surface I think it sounds fair, but I think it may be under priced or abusive.  Specially with the sould drinking and triple shot ability.
> 
> CRGreathouse, what do you think?




I think +8 is quite fair.


----------



## Sage (Aug 10, 2005)

*Unbreakers gear prices:*



> Mithril/Ysgardian Heartwire full plate +25, ever bright +1, Soul fire +4, Empyreal +2, heavy fortification +5, great reflection +10, negating +5, greater fire, acid, cold, electric and sonic resistance *502,650 + a +42 epic armor enhancement market price*



Full Plate: 1,650
Enhancement bonus *+52 *= 54,080,000 gp (a bit too much)
greater resistances:  5*66,000 = 330,000 gp
Price: 54,411,650



> Spiked Shield, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, +12 weapon enhancement, Infinite arrow deflection +6, ghost touch +3, Empyreal +2, *101,150 + 40 epic armor enhancement market price *



Mithral spiked shield: ~1,000 gp
armor Enhancement bonus +37 = 13,690,000 gp
 weapon enhancement bonus +12: 2,880,000
Price: 16,571,000 gp
notes: ghost touch, applies to defense only.



> Spiked Shield, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, exception arrow deflection +8, ghost touch +1, +12 weapon enhancement, Empyreal +2, 101,150 + 40 epic armor enhancement market price



Mithral Shield = ~1,000 gp
armor Enhancement bonus +36 = 12,960,000 gp
 weapon enhancement bonus +13: 3,380,000
Price: 16,341,000
notes: ghost touch applies to attack only.



> Large, Adamantine spiked chain +25 weapon enhancement, brilliant energy +4, keen +1, speed +3, Ghost touch +1, ever dancing +8, holy power +8 203,000 + 40 epic weapon enhancement market price



Adamantine spiked chain: ~3,000 gp
enhancement bonus +50 = 50,000,000 gp
Price: 50,003,000 gp (technically over the price limit but sounds reasonable)



> Large, Adamantine spiked chain +25 ghost touch +1, keen +1, Holy x2 +4, speed +3, ever dancing +8, holy power +8 203,000 + 40 epic weapon enhancement market price



Adamantine spiked chain: ~3,000 gp
enhancement bonus: +50 = 50,000,000 gp
Price: 50,003,000 gp (technically over the price limit but sounds reasonable)
nags: holy x2???



> Bracers of relentless might - +30 strength and +30 constitution 18,000,000?



Price: 18,000,000 gp (9 for each ability)



> Helm of Wisdom +30 - grants a +100 competence bonus to Sense motive and spot 49,000,000



Wisdom bonus = 9,000,000 gp
skill bonuses = 2*10,000,000 = 20,000,000 gp
Price: 29,000,000 gp (save 40%!) 



> Epic ring reflection +10 deflection AC 2,000,000



yep, 2,000,000 gp



> Ring of Solar wings - 118,000



uh...



> Anti-magic shackles - 132,000



uh....



> _Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Influence_ and sequestering 300,000



uh... need more information



> _Animated +1 Buckler of Exceptional Arrow Deflection_ (1,210,150 gp)



enhancement bonus +11 = 1,210,000 gp



> _Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance_ 110 that also acts as a Star mantle cloak - 9,932,000



spell resistance: 9,800,000 gp
star mantle cloak?



> Universal ring of energy immunity 2,160,000



Yep.



> Improved advanced boots of swiftness - as per the boots of swiftness but with a +30 to dexterity instead of a +6 dexterity. 9,220,000



Boots of Swiftness = 256,000 gp
minus +6 dex = 36,000
plus +30 dex = 9,000,000
price: 9,220,000 gp
nags: might work out another way if we looked into the boots other abilities (when multiple different abilities multiply lower item price by 1.5)

----------------------------------

*DM Rocco's test:
*


> How much would a diamond cost that had a widened permenant anti-magic shell on it?



First off, a permanent anitmagic sphere isn't a good idea, a use-activated one though...
Price: 9*17*2,000*2 = 612,000 gp (not much) + diamond price
of course, that would be overlooking the paradox of a magic item making an antimagic sphere.



> How much to have a glove of storing that could break the anti-magic field and store it at the ready?



_Theoretically:_ since the spell is dismissible and you activate it with the use-activated diamond you can just dismiss the sphere and store the item with normal gloves of storing.
Bonus: once the original magic item creates the sphere it's supressed, but since the user can still dismiss the sphere that would theoretically allow for such an item to work.
hmm...


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 10, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> First off, a permanent anitmagic sphere isn't a good idea, a use-activated one though...
> Price: 9*17*2,000*2 = 612,000 gp (not much) + diamond price
> of course, that would be overlooking the paradox of a magic item making an antimagic sphere.




No more troublesome than the paradox of a magic spell creating an antimagic sphere. 

AM is definitely thought-provoking. It remains useful at epic levels, and requires serious consideration concering its application...

Ozmar the Anti-Magician


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 11, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> *Unbreakers gear prices:*
> 
> 
> Full Plate: 1,650
> ...



Starmantle cloak is in the BOED, the cloak costs 132,000, or something like that, I'm at work and can't look it up, but figure an item that has the same item slot for that price and add it to the cost, or whatever you do, of the SR cloak. 

so are anti magic shackles and ring of the solar wings, they are priced right. 

I was just curios about the diamond thing, might be nice to have for when things get to nutty  

I used holy twice on one weapon just because I had two extra slots  

I like saving 40%  

When I get home I'll take a closer look and figure what I want, thanks for the math


----------



## Elephant (Aug 11, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Um, if you read, I had requested no enhancement bonuses over +25, you could go to +50 opn the weapon, but the other +25 had to be things like dancing or flame or whatever, so yes, with a two handed weapon, you could have a +25 + let's say you had a 100 str (only a +25 from one item remember) you would get a +67 for wielding a two handed weapon and you could power attack for +30 (1.5 damage bonus too with a two handed weapon, but only to your base attack bonus, which caps at +29) for a total of +123, so yes you can do a lot of damage, that is part of the point, but you will have a much lower AC, (up to a +29 on your ac from a +25 tower shield) which means you may not live to deal it all, you decide.




Ahem.  I believe you're ignoring the Animated property available for shields.


----------



## Sage (Aug 11, 2005)

*Magic Item Update for Sonasti the untouchable*

Split my protective item into three and added an extra:


> Suit of protection (takes the place of shirt)
> This is a series of silk cloths woven around most of the body
> leaving many stray peices that whirl un the wind or under movement
> They grant:
> ...




Changed amulet of the eye to lenses of the eye (no price change)

*Magic Item Spaces*


> *Used*
> Headband, Healmet (Headband of Brilliance)
> Eye lenses, googles (eye lenses of the eye)
> Cloak, cape, mantle (mantel of epic spell resistance)
> ...




I't going to tinker with what to use the unused spaces for, but unless someone else is going to take the antimagic diamond I just might. I figure my character can handle himself even without the magic (of course I might be seeing that from a 15-20th level perspective).

I've attacked my character sheet (wordpad) if anyone wants to see the whole thing.


----------



## Mystery Man (Aug 11, 2005)

What happened to dicefreaks? Is it no longer online?


----------



## Sage (Aug 11, 2005)

Ozmar did youg get an answer about the wish as sp ablility?

if not theres a feat in the age-old Tome and Blood (it might be in complete arcane too).

Anyway you need Quicken Spell, Silent Spell and Still Spell to get this feat and when you take it you choose one spell that you can cast which you can now cast as a spell-like ability at will once per round. The catch is that you have to permanently sacrifice a spell slot 8 levels higher, and that you have to payer the xp cost, you have to pay that every time you cast the spell.

a 17th level spell slot should be easy enough for any mage of 100th level, and I recon that after a few encounter you'll have enough spare XP to cast the spell a few times.

Question: Are we going to use dice machines for massive damage and such or average values?


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 11, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Ozmar did youg get an answer about the wish as sp ablility?
> 
> if not theres a feat in the age-old Tome and Blood (it might be in complete arcane too).
> 
> ...




No, I didn't get an answer... until now. Thanks!

This sounds perfectly fine and balanced IMO. I am totally unconcerned with someone using wish at will so long as they have to pay the 5,000xp cost. Sure, a 100th level wizard will have up to 95,000xp free to spend (and that's a lot!) but he also could have 80+ spell slots at or above level 9, so nothing is preventing him from preparing 80 wishes if he were so inclined. For me, the only broken possibility is if the trick somehow allowed you to bypass the 5,000xp cost in casting wish. And if any trick did that, I'd nerf it in a Faerunian minute! 

Ozmar the Satisfied


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 11, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Split my protective item into three and added an extra:
> 
> 
> Changed amulet of the eye to lenses of the eye (no price change)
> ...




Yes, I was going to make a anti-magic diamond.  With a natural 90 dr/- and a 30 healing factor, I think I can make good use of it against the right foe


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 11, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> No, I didn't get an answer... until now. Thanks!
> 
> This sounds perfectly fine and balanced IMO. I am totally unconcerned with someone using wish at will so long as they have to pay the 5,000xp cost. Sure, a 100th level wizard will have up to 95,000xp free to spend (and that's a lot!) but he also could have 80+ spell slots at or above level 9, so nothing is preventing him from preparing 80 wishes if he were so inclined. For me, the only broken possibility is if the trick somehow allowed you to bypass the 5,000xp cost in casting wish. And if any trick did that, I'd nerf it in a Faerunian minute!
> 
> Ozmar the Satisfied




To Ozmar the soon to be unsatisfied,

  Rod of Excellent magic allows you to use the rod ability to produce 2,000xp per day for Xp spells instead of your own XP.  I am sure you make one to have 10,000xp avialible per day so you can cast a twined wish for not too much more money.  It is in the EPHB, although, we don't have to allow it, but it is a standard item. 

DM-Rocco


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 11, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> To Ozmar the soon to be unsatisfied,
> 
> Rod of Excellent magic allows you to use the rod ability to produce 2,000xp per day for Xp spells instead of your own XP.  I am sure you make one to have 10,000xp avialible per day so you can cast a twined wish for not too much more money.  It is in the EPHB, although, we don't have to allow it, but it is a standard item.
> 
> DM-Rocco




Well, I'll turn this back atcha. Putting aside the "use wish as a Sp ability at will" schtick, do you think that Rods o' Excellent Magic combined with some wish spells create a "broken" combination? Because our wizard might be able to prepare 80+ wishes daily, most of which would doubtlessly be enhanced with MM feats. 

Personally, I have no issue with it. (After all, wish is "only" a 9th-level spell.) I would be concerned if they could cast wish without paying the XP cost. But as you point out, the Rod of Excellent magic transfers an XP cost to a GP cost. So does this create an unbalanced scenario? I don't think so, but others may have different opinions...

In any case, I think the "brokeness" (if any) would stem from the rods, not from the Sp ability schtick...

What do you think, DM-Rocco?

Ozmar the Curious


----------



## Sage (Aug 11, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Yes, I was going to make a anti-magic diamond. With a natural 90 dr/- and a 30 healing factor, I think I can make good use of it against the right foe




 good luck in pricing it...


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Well, I'll turn this back atcha. Putting aside the "use wish as a Sp ability at will" schtick, do you think that Rods o' Excellent Magic combined with some wish spells create a "broken" combination? Because our wizard might be able to prepare 80+ wishes daily, most of which would doubtlessly be enhanced with MM feats.
> 
> Personally, I have no issue with it. (After all, wish is "only" a 9th-level spell.) I would be concerned if they could cast wish without paying the XP cost. But as you point out, the Rod of Excellent magic transfers an XP cost to a GP cost. So does this create an unbalanced scenario? I don't think so, but others may have different opinions...
> 
> ...




Well, just bringing up a point, I think time stop will give far more troubles than near limitless wishes, hell, the epic level spells will give us fits.  If you limit wishes to book definitions, on problems, if you allow wierd things like wishing for your daily spells to be returned, like you could in 1.0, then you have problems.  Anyway, right now I want to get everyone up to date on making characters. 

Are you making a character? 

Or are you just stealing all my good plot points?


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> good luck in pricing it...




:\  er, didn't you say this would be the price?


			
				Sage said:
			
		

> First off, a permanent anitmagic sphere isn't a good idea, a use-activated one though...
> Price: 9*17*2,000*2 = 612,000 gp (not much) + diamond price
> of course, that would be overlooking the paradox of a magic item making an antimagic sphere.




The 90 dr/- and 30 healing factor are from class feats and epic feats


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## Ozmar (Aug 12, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Are you making a character?
> 
> Or are you just stealing all my good plot points?




I'm just along to steal plot points and kibitz with side comments. 

I am much too inexperienced to make a 100th level character.   

Ozmar the Neophyte


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Sage, here, I changed a few thing around, please check prices 


*Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Influence and sequestering 300,000 combines ring of Sequestering (300,000 from ELHB) and amulet of proof against detection and location (35,000 DMG p247) and a constant mind blank spell.

**Star Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance *spell resistance 110: 9,800,000 gp
star mantle cloak? from BOED base price 132,000 gp - 9,932,000 gp?

*Spiked Shield*,Mithral spiked shield: ~1,000 gp
armor Enhancement bonus +37 = 13,690,000 gp
weapon enhancement bonus +12: 2,880,000
Etherealness +49,000 gp

Price: 16,630,000 gp
notes: ghost touch, now applies to defense and attack



*Spiked Shield*, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, exception arrow deflection +8, ghost touch +1, +9 weapon enhancement, bashing, ghost touch, Empyreal +2

Mithral Shield = ~1,000 gp
armor Enhancement bonus +36 = 12,960,000 gp
weapon enhancement bonus +13: 3,380,000
Price: 16,341,000
notes: ghost touch, now applies to attack and defense

*Mithril/Ysgardian Heartwire full plate +25, ever bright +1, Soul fire +4, heavy fortification +5, great reflection +10, negating +5, greater fire, acid, cold, electric and sonic resistance
 Enhancement bonus +52 = 54,080,000 gp (a bit too much)
greater resistances: 5*66,000 = 330,000 gp
Price: 54,411,650

Also, how much for an item, say a ring, that targets an area or person, to instead target my armor?

*


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> I am much too inexperienced to make a 100th level character.
> 
> Ozmar the Neophyte




Hasn't stopped me


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## Sage (Aug 12, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Sage, here, I changed a few thing around, please check prices
> 
> 
> *Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Influence and sequestering 300,000 combines ring of Sequestering (300,000 from ELHB) and amulet of proof against detection and location (35,000 DMG p247) and a constant mind blank spell.
> *



Special Sequester spell: 300,000 gp
Nondetection: 3*5*2,000*1.5 = 45,000 :\
Mind blank: 8*15*2,000*0.5 = 120,000
Price: 465,000 gp



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> *Star Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance *spell resistance 110: 9,800,000 gp
> star mantle cloak? from BOED base price 132,000 gp - 9,932,000 gp?



Sounds good.


			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> *Spiked Shield*,Mithral spiked shield: ~1,000 gp
> armor Enhancement bonus +37 = 13,690,000 gp
> weapon enhancement bonus +12: 2,880,000
> Etherealness +49,000 gp
> ...



Shield: 1,000 gp
armor enhancement +37 = 13,690,00 gp
weapon enhancement +13 = 3,380,00 gp
Etherealness ? 49,000 gp
Price: 17,120,000 gp





			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> *Spiked Shield*, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, exception arrow deflection +8, ghost touch +1, +9 weapon enhancement, bashing, ghost touch +3, Empyreal +2
> 
> notes: ghost touch, now applies to attack and defense




Mithral Shield = ~1,000 gp
armor Enhancement bonus +39 = 15,210,000 gp
weapon enhancement bonus +13: 3,380,000
Price: 18,591,000



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> *Mithril/Ysgardian Heartwire full plate +25, ever bright +1, Soul fire +4, heavy fortification +5, great reflection +10, negating +5, greater fire, acid, cold, electric and sonic resistance
> *



I'm sorry, I've made a mistake here, +50 enhancement bonus (the one above) is 25,000,000 gp, but +52 enhancement bonus is actually only 27,040,000 gp, but IIRC still against the guidelines.

so price is 25,000,000 gp + 330,000 for resistances = 25,330,000 (save 50%!)
*

*


			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> * Also, how much for an item, say a ring, that targets an area or person, to instead target my armor?
> *




What do you mean? example?


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## RajAhten (Aug 12, 2005)

Umm I know this is not one of the books allowed but the wheel of time rpg just give someone the balefire rod


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Special Sequester spell: 300,000 gp
> Nondetection: 3*5*2,000*1.5 = 45,000 :\
> Mind blank: 8*15*2,000*0.5 = 120,000
> Price: 465,000 gp
> ...




I was wondering why the armor was so much when the sheild wasn't that much 
I decided to stick to my own guidelines and go with +50 
I meant to stick to that, but must have mis counted 

Okay, example, it would effect only area of effect spells and if a area of effect spell, say horrid wilting, is targeted within a 40' radius of my character, it instead is considered targetting my character so the reflecting ability of the armor will bounce it back at the caster.

Make sense?

Trying to find a way around Mords and other spells that don't derctly hit me, but would not fall under the protection of the reflecting ability of the armor.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

RajAhten said:
			
		

> Umm I know this is not one of the books allowed but the wheel of time rpg just give someone the balefire rod




As I didn't realize the Wheel of Time series before book 700 came out, I am unfamiliar with the balefire rod.  What does that do?


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## Sage (Aug 12, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Okay, example, it would effect only area of effect spells and if a area of effect spell, say horrid wilting, is targeted within a 40' radius of my character, it instead is considered targetting my character so the reflecting ability of the armor will bounce it back at the caster.
> 
> Make sense?
> 
> Trying to find a way around Mords and other spells that don't derctly hit me, but would not fall under the protection of the reflecting ability of the armor.




Oh... that ones easy: It can't be done.

There's a spell seed that does this for a DC of 220 or some odd, but as I was notified, you can't put this in armor. The closest you'll come is spell turning which only works for spells targeted on you. 
The only real help is improved saves, plus some area spells allow spell resistance IIRC.

b.t.w. how many spells are there of each level (wondering what a ring of spell immunity to all spells in PHB would cost )


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Oh... that ones easy: It can't be done.
> b.t.w. how many spells are there of each level (wondering what a ring of spell immunity to all spells in PHB would cost )




Not sure, but if we were playing with all the books, I would have just made a Rashkaka (might have spelled that one wrong) and gave him the dwarven template as a ritual so he could take dwarven defender levels 

Really, with the ring of energy immunity, all you really need is an item that gives you mind blank and death ward as permentant spell effects and followed up with an item that gives you immunity to Horrid Wilting, the dispelling spells (break enchantment, dispel magic, mords, etc.), stasis, time stop and imprisonment, *counts on fingers* I think that is it.


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## Ozmar (Aug 12, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> DM-Rocco said: "Trying to find a way around Mords and other spells that don't derctly hit me, but would not fall under the protection of the reflecting ability of the armor."
> 
> Sage said: "Oh... that ones easy: It can't be done."




Ozmar says: On the contrary, the ward seed can be used to create an epic spell that creates an "immobile... magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds you and excludes all spell effects... The area or effect of any [affected] spells does not include the area of the ward."

So the solution is to start with this basic seed and modify it. Make it mobile, increase its potentency and specificity to handle Mord's and voila! You can mix and match the particulars to suit your tastes.

One way around this, (at least, in my understanding of the rules) is simply to Heighten Mord's to 10th level or higher. Since the epic warding is keyed to a specific spell at a specific spell level, it would be my ruling that it only affected that spell at that level (or lower, if a lower level version existed). Of course, you could design the spell to protect against higher and higher spells, and in fact in my home game, I have modified epic spell development rules to enable spell casters to research epic spells that have variable casting costs and DCs based on the desired level of effect. So for example, a cautious mage could develop this epic warding spell to scale upwards (level 10, level 11, etc...) based on how much XP he spent when it is cast.

Just some epic spell thoughts... They need a strong and consistent DM to adjudicate properly.

Ozmar the Fair(ly) (Un)balanced


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## Ozmar (Aug 12, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Not sure, but if we were playing with all the books, I would have just made a Rashkaka (might have spelled that one wrong) and gave him the dwarven template as a ritual so he could take dwarven defender levels
> 
> Really, with the ring of energy immunity, all you really need is an item that gives you mind blank and death ward as permentant spell effects and followed up with an item that gives you immunity to Horrid Wilting, the dispelling spells (break enchantment, dispel magic, mords, etc.), stasis, time stop and imprisonment, *counts on fingers* I think that is it.




Not to quibble, but... remember that you can't actually be "immune" to _dispel magic _ or any spell which doesn't allow SR, because "immunity" to magic is defined as having an unbeatable SR. Any spell (such as *acid arrows*) that ignores SR also ignores magical immunity.

Ozmar the Rules Lawyer


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Not to quibble, but... remember that you can't actually be "immune" to _dispel magic _or any spell which doesn't allow SR, because "immunity" to magic is defined as having an unbeatable SR. Any spell (such as *acid arrows*) that ignores SR also ignores magical immunity.
> 
> Ozmar the Rules Lawyer




Well, I never 

I have Dmed many high level games, but nothing more than 15th level in 3.5, the some rules and such are not committed to memory, yet 

Good to know 

Show off


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

*Okay, here is Unbreakable, my Dwarven Defender. His features are greater whirlwind and improved combat reflexes with a 15' radius with his large spiked chain. He also has two other shields that are enchanted as weapons in case he needs a higher defense or more protection. He has two chains, one for non undead, the other for undead. He also has a gem that makes magic fail within a 40 foot radius. He doesn't need magic with his 90 dr/- and 30 healing factor from class feats, so if is facing a mage, he just whips it out and closes on in.*

*The prices should be right for everything with the possible exception of the last item, the enchanted buckler that is animated. I copied it from sage, yeah, sue me . But I had extra money left over so I added a +25 enchantment and a few other things but I just through a price on it.*

*If my price is correct, then I am 2,386,150 gp over and I can and will fix it, just need to know how much the shield is *

*Otherwise, everything should be finally good to go for him.*

*I think there is way too much work for me to create another 100th level guy, damn that ate up a ton of time. Rather than finish my mage, I am passing it off to EvilDM, who is also working on a cleric.*

*I think in the coming weeks I am going to start posting portions of the module.*

*So, CRGreathouse, what are you in for, haven't heard much out of you lately? You still in? Home is your paladin coming?*

*Also, who wants to work on what part of the module?*

* 

Unbreakable: Male dwarf Ftr12, DD 88; Medium-size humanoid; HD 12d10 (72), 88dl2(612) + 2,400 (CON) + 3 (Toughness) hp 3,087; Init +21 ; Spd 50 ft., fly 60 ft. good; AC 108/112 (touch 15, + 20 natural + 5 DEX, +26 shield, +10 deflection, +4 haste, +4 dodge (when in stance), +33 armor, flat-footed 103); AC (when fighting with two large shields) 133/137 (touch 15, + 20 natural + 5 DEX, +52 shield, +10 deflection, +4 haste, +4 dodge (when in stance), +33 armor, flat-footed 128); Atk +139/ +139/ +134/ +129/ +124 melee (2d6 + 85 crit /18-20/X2 (+1d6 on crit and fort save DC 100 or die) Chain, Spiked) or max power attacking for 20 Atk +119/ +119/ +114/ +109/ +104 melee (2d6+115/18-20/X2 (+1d6 on crit and fort save DC 100 or die) Chain, Spiked) or +110/+105/+100/+95 (ld8+60, +0 warhammer) or (2d8+40/19-20/X3, dwarven thrower) or two shield bashings +119/ +119/ +119/ +114/ +114/ +109/ +109/ +104/ +104 (2d6+1d6 spiked + 2d6 bashing + 51, mithril shield) or +91 ranged (2d8+40/19-20/X3, dwarven thrower) or two shield bashings with maxed power attack +99/ +99/ +99/ +94/ +94/ +89/ +89/ +84/ +84 (2d6+1d6 spiked + 2d6 bashing + 71, mithril shield) ;SQ Dwarf traits; AL LN; SV Fort (55+24+20+1=100), Ref (47+21+30+1=99), Will (51+17+20+1=90), DR 90/-, Fast healing: 30; 

Str: 88 + 39 (Base 16 (10), +17 level enhancements, +30 enhancement, +5 inherit, Great STR XX)
Dex: 51 + 20 (Base 12 (4), +4 level enhancements, +30 enhancement, +5 inherit)
Con: 57 + 23 (Base 16 (10), + 2 racial, +3 level enhancements, +30 enhancement, +5 inherit)
Int: 21 + 5 (Base 14 (6), +6 enhancement +5 inherit)
Wis: 43 + 16 (Base 8 (0), +30 enhancement +5 inherit)
Cha: 17 + 3 (Base 8 (0), -2 racial, +5 inherit, +6 enhancement) 

Permanent Spells: Arcane sight, comprehend languages, dark vision, detect magic, read magic, see invisibility, tongues, enlarge person, Rary’s telepathic bond, resistance

Skills and Feats: Climb +140(100), Jump +140(100), Swim +140(100), Ride +39(18), Tumble +71(50), Spot +117(100), sense motive +117(100) 


Fighter Bonus Feats: Improved Critical (Chain, Spiked), Weapon Focus (Chain, Spiked), Weapon Specialization (Chain, Spiked), Greater Weapon Focus (Chain, Spiked), Greater Weapon Specialization (Chain, Spiked), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Chain, Spiked), Epic Weapon Specialization (Chain, Spiked) 

Character level feats to 20th level: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Combat Expertise, Whirlwind, Endurance, Toughness 

Epic Character Feats: shield bash, Two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting, greater two-weapon fighting, perfect two weapon fighting, Cleave, Great Cleave, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Great Strength XX, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Blind Fight, Dire Charge


Epic Dwarven Defender Feats (26): Fast Healing X, Overwhelming Critical, Devastating Critical (DC 60 + STR40 + dc 100), Damage Reduction II, Epic Prowess X, Epic weapon focus (Chain, Spiked), Improved combat reflexes 

Mithril/Ysgardian Heartwire full plate +25, ever bright +1, Soul fire +4, heavy fortification +5, great reflection +10, negating +5, greater fire, acid, cold, electric and sonic resistance + etherealness 

Price: 25,379,000


Spiked Shield, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, +11 weapon enhancement, bashing, Infinite arrow deflection +6, ghost touch +3, ghost touch, Empyreal +2

Price: 17,071,000 gp
notes: ghost touch, applies to defense and attack

Spiked Shield, large mithril +25 defense enhancement, ever bright +1, exceptional arrow deflection +8, ghost touch +1, +9 weapon enhancement, bashing, ghost touch, Empyreal +2

Price: 18,591,000
notes: ghost touch applies to attack and defense

Large, Adamantine spiked chain +25 weapon enhancement, brilliant energy +4, keen +1, speed +3, Ghost touch +1, ever dancing +8, holy power +8 

Adamantine spiked chain: ~3,000 gp
enhancement bonus +50 = 50,000,000 gp
Price: 50,003,000 gp (technically over the price limit but sounds reasonable)

Large, Adamantine spiked chain +25 ghost touch +1, keen +1, Holy x2 +4, speed +3, ever dancing +8, holy power +8 

Adamantine spiked chain: ~3,000 gp
enhancement bonus: +50 = 50,000,000 gp
Price: 50,003,000 gp (technically over the price limit but sounds reasonable)
nags: holy x2???

x2Gloves of Storing - 20,000

Bracers of relentless might - +30 strength and +30 constitution 18,000,000?

Helm of Wisdom +30 - grants a +100 competence bonus to Sense motive and spot 

Price: 29,000,000 gp (save 40%!) 

Epic ring reflection +10 deflection AC 2,000,000

Ring of Solar wings - 118,000

Anti-magic shackles - 132,000

Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Influence with constant mind blank and sequestering 465,000 gp

Star Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance 110 that also acts as a Star mantle cloak - 9,800,000 gp

x2Universal ring of energy immunity 2,160,000

Improved advanced boots of swiftness - as per the boots of swiftness but with a +30 to dexterity instead of a +6 dexterity, freedom of movement, continuous haste on wearer, continuous spider-climb on wearer

price: 9,562,000 gp


Anti-magic diamond - creates and lowers an anti-magic field centered on the diamond in a 40 foot radius 612,000 gp

Bracelet of Safe-keeping
-Grants +30 resistance bonus to Reflex saves
-Grants +20 resistance bonus to Fortitude Saves
-Grants +20 resistance bonus to Will saves
-Price: 17,000,000 gp

Buckler of Exceptional mithril +25 defense enhancement, Infinite arrow deflection +6, ever bright +1, exceptional arrow deflection +8, ghost touch +3, Empyreal +2, Animated +2

Price: 17,120,000 gp
notes: ghost touch applies to defense

235,286,150 Total with animated shield priced at buckler animated +11

252,386,150 total with animated shield priced as listed

*


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 12, 2005)

Crap, I was going to add +100 bonus to spot and sense motive and maybe jump/climb/swim to the helm, but I forgot and may not have the money but that is it, really


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## Sage (Aug 13, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> *Permanent Spells: Arcane sight, comprehend languages, dark vision, detect magic, read magic, see invisibility, tongues, enlarge person, Rary’s telepathic bond, resistance*



If I were your I'd put them in a magic item since _one_ dispel magic can remove all of them.

Oh and if you reduce the reflex save bonus in your bracelet of safe-keeping to +20 you'll shave off 5,000,000 gp. I made it with a higher ref bonus since in a lot of cases I can make a ref save instead of a fort or will.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 13, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> If I were your I'd put them in a magic item since _one_ dispel magic can remove all of them.
> 
> Oh and if you reduce the reflex save bonus in your bracelet of safe-keeping to +20 you'll shave off 5,000,000 gp. I made it with a higher ref bonus since in a lot of cases I can make a ref save instead of a fort or will.




How does the price of the last shield look though?


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## Sage (Aug 14, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> How does the price of the last shield look though?




It should be: 47^2 * 10,000 + 1,000 = 22,091,000 gp


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## Yair (Aug 14, 2005)

Eh... carry on the good work... 

I am still on vacation; see you in a week or so...

Yair

P.S. French keyboards are WEIRD


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## LordBOB (Aug 17, 2005)

ok guys so i was reading through some of the posts and I came up with an idea that i havent seen anyone else use.  

I know that you can buy an item for 100,000 gold that will permantly increase any of your stats by 1 point.

1pt.=         100,000 
10pt.    =    1,000,000
100pt   =    10,000,000
1000pt  =     100,000,000
2000pt. =     200,000,000

2000 extra points by these items, 20 points due to being level 100, and surly with 50,000,000 gold, I can get items that give +6 to everything else b/c i was always told that +6 is the biggest enchantment bonus you cn have an a single item. Total = 2020 points to move around between your stats, and at least a +6 bonus due to other magical items like a +6 belt of Strength etc.....    Now... i could take all of my points and put them in a single place, but that would be wrong so i evenly spaced them out.  2020 dived by 6 is 336 with 4 left over.  So yuou put 336 points in each catagory and the other 4 where ever you wish.

Str.  10 ( base) +6 magical item  +336 = 352 (+172)
Dex. 10 ( base) +6 magical item  +336 = 352 (+172)
Con. 10 ( base) +6 magical item  +336 = 352 (+172)
Int.  10 ( base) +6 magical item  +336 = 352 (+172)
Wis. 10 ( base) +6 magical item  +336 = 352 (+172)
Cha. 10 ( base) +6 magical item  +336 = 352 (+172)


  Now also lets say that im an elf. 

Monk = 30
sorceror = 60 
Dragon Disciple = 10

Now the problem comes with getting your spells.  Luckly I stayed up for HOURS figuring out just exactly how many spells i would have with the stats that i have now, and heres what i found out.

Spell Level  ===     1 / 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 8 / 9
bonus spells         43 /42 /42 /42 /42 /41/41/41/41 

Now im also not accounting for the bonus spells you get for being a DD or anything else for being a DD.  Honestly i have a huge migrane from trying to figure out the # of bonus spells you get just from your stats.

All i know is that by being a monk your AC is HUGE!  base =10   DD = +4natural (i think)  Ac from Dex = 172, and Wis. = 172.  Grand total = 358 !!!!!!!!!    

Honestly guys im so tired my entire body hurts.  If anyone would like to know how i came up with the bonus spells ill try and talk ya through it.  I'll also try to make a chart of the bonues spells and post it in here sometime.

Also if anyone finds something that i did wrong than PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ let me know and I'll try to fix them


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 17, 2005)

LordBOB said:
			
		

> ok guys so i was reading through some of the posts and I came up with an idea that i havent seen anyone else use.
> 
> I know that you can buy an item for 100,000 gold that will permantly increase any of your stats by 1 point.
> 
> ...




Um, by permanently increase 1 stat for 100,000 you mean the manuals of training that give an inherit bonus?  Because you can only have up to a +5 inherit bonus and you can't stack other sources and we have just given everyone a straight +5 across the board at no cost as an inherit bonus.

So, where did you get the bonus from and what kind of bonus would it be?


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## LordBOB (Aug 18, 2005)

well man i had no idea how you all got the inherited bonus.  I also didnt realise that you could only have a +5 on all of those stats.  I got those bonuses b/c i didnt know there was a "cap" on the number of pluses you could have.  If there wasnt a cap on the manuels that you could have than my plan would work perfectly.  So i guess disregard my last comment about the character creation.

Still if your DM allowed you to buy the Manuels without a max than i think that would cause for an awesome character.

I would still like to make the monk/sorcerer/Dragon Disciple combo.  Use the monks to increase your base land speed by +90 to have a total base land speed of 120ft.  That would also let you fly at 120ft which is AWESOME!!!!


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## Sage (Aug 18, 2005)

LordBOB said:
			
		

> Still if your DM allowed you to buy the Manuels without a max than i think that would cause for an awesome character.




Well, I know we use a lot of extra balancing/restricting rules here but his ones actually from the DMG. Did seem incredible though.


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## Belbarid (Aug 18, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Quick commnents:
> 
> First of all, you do need to be a little nuts to make a 100th-level campaign.
> 
> ...




I'm curious to see how something like this shakes out, so what the heck.

Give me a day or two to mull it over, but I think I can contribute a worthwhile Monk to the group.


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 18, 2005)

Belbarid said:
			
		

> I'm curious to see how something like this shakes out, so what the heck.
> 
> Give me a day or two to mull it over, but I think I can contribute a worthwhile Monk to the group.




Sounds good, I will check your character for stats and feats and what not and be the final voice concerning what is and is not allowed.  Sage has kind of adopted the position of checking money for items and what not, so if he doesn't mind and you have a pricing question, just ask him and welcome aboard


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 18, 2005)

LordBOB said:
			
		

> well man i had no idea how you all got the inherited bonus. I also didnt realise that you could only have a +5 on all of those stats. I got those bonuses b/c i didnt know there was a "cap" on the number of pluses you could have. If there wasnt a cap on the manuels that you could have than my plan would work perfectly. So i guess disregard my last comment about the character creation.
> 
> Still if your DM allowed you to buy the Manuels without a max than i think that would cause for an awesome character.
> 
> I would still like to make the monk/sorcerer/Dragon Disciple combo. Use the monks to increase your base land speed by +90 to have a total base land speed of 120ft. That would also let you fly at 120ft which is AWESOME!!!!




Page 21, DMG, 3.5, if you are wondering.  Normally you can increase you enhancement bonus to whatever amount you like if you have the money.  You could, if the DM allowed, make an item that gave you a +20 sacred bonus to STR, but you can never have an inherit bonus greater than +5.  Also, as crazy as this sounds, we had to have limits on things, otherwise everythinng would be way out balanced, thus only the +5 inherit bonus and no more than a +30 enhancement bonus.

You are more than welcome to make a character though, if ya like.


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## LordBOB (Aug 19, 2005)

im going to fix something i said so that i dont get yelled at for it.  You do not get +90 base land speed.  I believe it is only +60 at 20th level giving you a total base land speed of 90ft per round thus letting you also fly at 90 ft. which is still awesome.

I would indeed like to build a character but im no where near skilled enough to be able to figure out the feats and what all they do.

If someone would like to make me an elf monk/sorceror/DD than it would be much appreciated.

monk             30
sorceror         60
DD                10

or you could change the levels of the monk and sorceror to whatever you would like it be be.  Im just throwing ideas and hopefully someone will catch my idea or at least part of it.


----------



## Sage (Aug 19, 2005)

More magic goodies for my character! 

Gloves of epic storing
As 2 gloves of storing that each hold up to 3 items.
Price: 600,000 gp
Breakdown: 2 x 10,000 (glove of storing) x3 (3 items) x10 (epic since it stores more than one item)

Portable Hole
Price: 20,000 gp

Rod of epic negation
Price 446,000 gp

Rod of paradise
Price: 610,000 gp

Rod of Wyrm (Black Dragon)
Price: 1,562,600 gp

Gauntlets of Invulnerability
Grants DR 15/adamantine and immunity to critical hits
Price: 400,000 gp
Breakdown: 600,000 gp (rod of invulnerability) - 200,000 gp (SR 32)​I may just be wierd (which might or might not be true) and have too much time (which is true) but I think it's fun to create a 100th level character and think you should try it LordBOB.


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Aug 19, 2005)

*The Ranger a.k.a. Paragon of Hatred*

*Hi Everybody!*


I'm new to the boards, but my brother told me about this cool thread and I have spent the last 
couple of days reading through the posts (I skipped the parts about plotline).

I thought about making a ranger even before I read the post by DM-Rocco:



			
				DM-ROcco said:
			
		

> If you are looking for a suggestion, I think a Ranger would kick ass. At level
> 100 everyone would be a favored enemy. You could call him Hatred, or Death or whatever. The
> Bane of Enemies feat would give you a +2d6 to all damage and the Improved favored enemey feat
> normally gives you +1 to all normal abilities for favored enemies (including damage) but with
> ...




Is there room for a Ranger (a.k.a. Paragon of Hatred)?

I belive the character creation rules are as follows:


 *Sources allowed are PHB, DMG, MM, and EPHB.* Alternative sources are DMGII, MMII, MMIII, BOED, BOVD, 
Deities and Demigods, and Faiths and Pantheons. Everything from the alternative sources is up for approval.   
 *For ability scores use the Elite array or the 30 point point buy.* All abilities automatically get a +5 
enhancement bonus (a compensation for the 27*10^6 gp). A character can be of any age.   
 *A character my have one base class, one prestige class and one epic prestige class.* 
 *When calculating skill-points keep a close eye on your Intelligence.* Skill-points are not retroactive.   
 *The Leadership feat is not allowed.* 
 *You have 250,000,000 gp to buy magic items for.* 
 *All magic items from the DMg and the EPHB are allowed.* Homemade magic items follow the creation rules in 
the SRD and the following guidelines:
- No item may be exceed 50,000,000 gp in price.
- Ability increases are capped at +50 enhancement.
- Skill increases are capped at +100 competence.
- Weapons are capped at +50 enhancement bonus. This is divided into max +25 enchantment and max +25 special abilites.
- SR is capped at 112.
- All bonuses on one item should be of the same type.   
 *You can deviate from the guidelines, but try to not do so by too much.* 
Did I get it right?


BTW what is up with the preview feature? I tried 4 different computers and 3 different browsers and it doesn't work on any of them.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> More magic goodies for my character!
> 
> 
> Gloves of epic storing
> ...





I agree, LordBOB, you should try it.  Just take it slowly.  Start with your base class, I would say monk since you end up with a better BAB.  Give him 30th levels, then in your DD for an other 10, then add 20 levels of sorcerer.  Adding in the other 40 levels of sorcerer are the easy party at this point, 13 more bonus feats from sorcerer.  Really the easiest is a character with just one class, like a straight monk.  Then you would just make a 20th level monk, add 27 character feats and in 16 epic bonus monk feats and then go nuts for gear.

I would suggest making a 100th level monk to start out, don't worry about gear, pick that later.  Once you look at your naked 100th level monk, then ask yourself what you might like to improve on, at that point you will have a better idea of what goes into such a character and you can go back and add in other class if you need them.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> *Hi Everybody!*
> 
> 
> I'm new to the boards, but my brother told me about this cool thread and I have spent the last
> ...




Paragon is a template, right?  I don't think we are allowing templates, just trying to keep things simple.  A 100th level ranger is 100% better than a fighter since they would have all that bonus damage and everything would be a favored enemy.  Feel free to make that if you wish, but sorry, no templates.

Not sure about the preview feature.


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 21, 2005)

*Comments...*

I really like that Monk / Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple plan. I might work one up and submit it for review... (Unless you don't want me to.  I don't want to cheeze LordBob out of his excellent idea.   )

I believe Excellent Student was just giving his character concept an evocative title. A 100th level Ranger _could _ be characterized as a "Paragon of Hatred", since he would have favored enemies of just about everything in the universe, right? 

Ozmar the Random Commentator


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 21, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> I really like that Monk / Sorcerer / Dragon Disciple plan. I might work one up and submit it for review... (Unless you don't want me to.  I don't want to cheeze LordBob out of his excellent idea.  )
> 
> I believe Excellent Student was just giving his character concept an evocative title. A 100th level Ranger _could _be characterized as a "Paragon of Hatred", since he would have favored enemies of just about everything in the universe, right?
> 
> Ozmar the Random Commentator




Well, it could be, but I also think there is a Paragon template and I don't want confusion.  Ozmar the Soon to Become Involved, go ahead and make one up and join the crowd.  Unless someone else is planning on such a thing I might just make up that ranger for a bit of fun.  But I want to start on the story line, so I will give others a chance to do what they want first. 

Ideally, I think it would be good to make a character covering most of the bases just so people who don't want to make their own 100th level character have a wide selection to choose from, so we really need a cleric, a druid or combination of the both, a wizard, a monk a ranger and a paladin.  Of course CRGreathouse had said he was planning on making a paladin, but I haven't heard from him in a while.


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Aug 21, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> I believe Excellent Student was just giving his character concept an evocative title. A 100th level Ranger _could _ be characterized as a "Paragon of Hatred", since he would have favored enemies of just about everything in the universe, right?




Yup!  (Though a race called Hatred would be appropriate for a ranger )

I'll go right ahead and make him. I'm planning on making a 100% ranger, but if anyone has a cool prestige class for rangers i'd appreciate if you'd mention it.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 22, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Yup!  (Though a race called Hatred would be appropriate for a ranger )
> 
> I'll go right ahead and make him. I'm planning on making a 100% ranger, but if anyone has a cool prestige class for rangers i'd appreciate if you'd mention it.




Sounds good, welcome aboard. 

You could try 10 levels of horizon walker, that would give you good bonuses to many skills, in the end, I think it is like:
+4 to swom checks or a +10 swim speed
Immunity to fatigue and anything that would cause you to become exhausted
+4 to hide
+4 to hear
+4 to move silent
+4 to climb or +10 climb speed
+4 to spot
darkvision 120 feet
resistence 20 fire/cold
+30 fly speed
shifting
alter alimgment
tremorsense

Plus you would basically get another +1 to hit and damage every creature.

Also, shadow dancer or duelist is also a very good choice, but I was thinking of making a straight duelist with a 300+AC .


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 23, 2005)

Hey, I'm working on this monk/sorcerer guy, and I can't recall... did DM-Rocco ban epic spells? So far I've decided to go the epic spell-casting route and have only purchased straight "by the book" spells, but I might want to create a few unique spells as well. I'm just thinking about a straightforward spell like an epic mage armor that adds +40 or +60 instead of just +20 to AC.

Ozmar the Epic Spell Researcher


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 23, 2005)

And another thing...

What if a sorcerer takes Automatic Quicken? I'm building this sorcerer, and I've taken Arcane Preparation and Quicken Spell, so I know I can prepare a few quick spells for the day and cast them quickly, but what happens if I take Auto Quicken? In reading the feat: 







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> The character may cast all 0-, 1st-, 2nd-, and 3rd-level spells as quickened spells without using higher-level spell slots. The normal limit to the number of quickened spells a character may cast per round applies. Spells with a casting time of more than 1 full round can’t be quickened.



 This seems to say that it will work for the Sorcerer. Note that Auto Quicken is not a Metamagic feat. You don't "apply" it to a spell, and it therefore doesn't increase the casting time of spontaneous spells. It is just a feat that gives the caster the ability to cast certain spells as quickened spells. So I think this should work fine for a Sorcerer.

There, I answered my own question.


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 23, 2005)

Uhmm.... what's the DC to punch through a wall of force?   

Ozmar the Mighty Monk


----------



## EvilGM (Aug 23, 2005)

It's taking a lot longer to make a 100th level character than I thought it would.  :\ 

I'm making the wizard priority now, the cleric can wait.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 23, 2005)

Hey EvilGM! 



			
				EvilGM said:
			
		

> It's taking a lot longer to make a 100th level character than I thought it would.  :\




Check out this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=144613&page=2


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> And another thing...
> 
> What if a sorcerer takes Automatic Quicken? I'm building this sorcerer, and I've taken Arcane Preparation and Quicken Spell, so I know I can prepare a few quick spells for the day and cast them quickly, but what happens if I take Auto Quicken? In reading the feat: This seems to say that it will work for the Sorcerer. Note that Auto Quicken is not a Metamagic feat. You don't "apply" it to a spell, and it therefore doesn't increase the casting time of spontaneous spells. It is just a feat that gives the caster the ability to cast certain spells as quickened spells. So I think this should work fine for a Sorcerer.
> 
> There, I answered my own question.




I think you are correct, it should work like that.  However, there is a feat that sorcerers use to need in order to cast a quick spell, it was something like Spell Preperation, but with automaic quicken, you shouldn't need it.

You can use epic spells, but we are going to have to limit some of them.  Not sure which ones yet though.  We haven't really disscussed it yet.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Uhmm.... what's the DC to punch through a wall of force?
> 
> Ozmar the Mighty Monk




I think it is something like DC 30 Strength check, might be 40, I don't have my book out and I'm too lazy to check


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 24, 2005)

EvilGM said:
			
		

> It's taking a lot longer to make a 100th level character than I thought it would. :\
> 
> I'm making the wizard priority now, the cleric can wait.




Yeh, get to work 

It can be a bit hard, fairly easy when you are making a non-spellcaster, but a bit more thought needs to be put into your spell caster.  And with you in particular making a spellcaster, you had better list your combos before hand cause I know you have found some.  I still remember when you did 2400d6 damage in one round in Dar's epic world with a 20th level mage


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 24, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I think it is something like DC 30 Strength check, might be 40, I don't have my book out and I'm too lazy to check




Ah, well, if it's less than 100, I do it. 

Ozmar the Very Strong Monk


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 24, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I think you are correct, it should work like that.  However, there is a feat that sorcerers use to need in order to cast a quick spell, it was something like Spell Preperation, but with automaic quicken, you shouldn't need it.
> 
> You can use epic spells, but we are going to have to limit some of them.  Not sure which ones yet though.  We haven't really disscussed it yet.




Yep: Arcane Preparation. I took it, because the character has about 20 metamagic feats, and I figured it would be handy to prep a few choice spells each day. 

And I'm buying up those epic spells. Even if we just stick with "stock" spells, he should have an impressive arsenal.

Anyone want to duke it out with our 100th level characters? Once I post mine (in a couple days or so) I'll be ready for anything. (I'm using the CR 97 incarnation of Io  as a sample opponent to make sure the character is within the right ball-park, power wise.) 

Ozmar the Uber-Monk


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## Sage (Aug 25, 2005)

*Automatic Quicken Spell:* yep, it works for sorcerers, but the catch is you have to "waste" a feat on quicken spell.

*Epic Spells: *Oh goodie! I've been having so much fun making super-powered magic items I was daying to see what people would do with epic spells.


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 25, 2005)

Darn it! I was planning on taking Awaken Spell Resistance at 99th level, because then I'd be a dragon through my dragon apotheosis (level 10 of Dragon Disciple) and I would qualify for that feat. I thought it would give me SR 100, buuut... on a more careful reading of said feat, I learned that it gives you SR = to your "racial hit dice". I have no racial hit dice! They are all class hit dice! So no SR for me. (Well, my monk's ability gives me SR 40, but I am not counting on that to do anything. 

Guess I'll take Ignore Material Components instead - just so I can reduce the darn book-keeping. 

Ozmar the Epic Monk/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple...


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 25, 2005)

Man, IO is _*tough*!_ I managed to deal 51 points of damage to him, but then he started grappling me and I got scared so I teleported away. (c'mon! DR 45/epic _and _ mithril? WTF?!)

I'm going to need to give this character a bit more thought. At these levels, it seems that most everything is pretty much, well, immune to everything. There is no such thing as a simple fight when every actor has the resources of the entire PHB (and then some) at their disposal. I'm getting along with the character and he's pretty solidly protected from things, but neither can he actually defeat anything either. Sure, he could take out a small army of sub CR-40 dragons, but creatures more at his challenge level are just too darn tough to crack!

I'm definitely curious, DM-Rocco, to see if/how you plan to put together this adventure and how you'll playtest it. I am definitely interested in seeing it playtested.

Ozmar the Addicted Gamer


----------



## LordBOB (Aug 25, 2005)

hey ozmar im glad someone has decided to build my character, or should i say your character now.  When you are able to complete him than plz post it here so i can see what you have done.  Thanks in advance


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## Enthusiastic Student (Aug 25, 2005)

Ok, I haven't given him any magic items of notice yet, but here he is:



> *Paragon of Hatred*
> *Race:* Human
> *Class:* Ranger/Shadowdancer
> *Level:* 90/10
> ...




BTW You guys really should read the "Intercontinental Union of Disgusting Characters" and "Sick Kids".


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Man, IO is _*tough*!_ I managed to deal 51 points of damage to him, but then he started grappling me and I got scared so I teleported away. (c'mon! DR 45/epic _and _mithril? WTF?!)
> 
> I'm going to need to give this character a bit more thought. At these levels, it seems that most everything is pretty much, well, immune to everything. There is no such thing as a simple fight when every actor has the resources of the entire PHB (and then some) at their disposal. I'm getting along with the character and he's pretty solidly protected from things, but neither can he actually defeat anything either. Sure, he could take out a small army of sub CR-40 dragons, but creatures more at his challenge level are just too darn tough to crack!
> 
> ...




Well, I am working on things, but I was replying on CRGreathouse, UpperKrust and Yair to help with things a bit, but if I have too, I'll figure it out.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Ok, I haven't given him any magic items of notice yet, but here he is:
> 
> 
> 
> BTW You guys really should read the "Intercontinental Union of Disgusting Characters" and "Sick Kids".




Okay, for the record, you get a +5 inherit bonus across the board for ability scores for free and you can get ability items to enhance up to +30.  Looks good though.


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 26, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> BTW You guys really should read the "Intercontinental Union of Disgusting Characters" and "Sick Kids".




You gonna post a link for those, or you gonna make us google them? 

Ozmar the Lazy


----------



## Yair (Aug 26, 2005)

Balancing out the characters to be roughly equally effective will, I suspect, be most difficult. I know my character is so not minmaxed for combat it isn't funny.
I'm working on my bard character, and will post a reworked version this weekend (I hope).

The ranger and monk seem great. 

I'll help as much as I can with playtesting and/or writing the adventure, but I have ZERO experience in epic levels (in 3e).


----------



## Sage (Aug 26, 2005)

The Intercontinental Union of Disgusting Characters (IUDC)

Sick Kids is on the same page.

Remember, this was written under AD&D or possibly 1e D&D



			
				IUDC said:
			
		

> "Name?" Clerasil questioned the latest entry.
> 
> "Rango."
> 
> ...


----------



## Upper_Krust (Aug 26, 2005)

Hey DM-Rocco! 



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Well, I am working on things, but I was replying on CRGreathouse, UpperKrust and Yair to help with things a bit, but if I have too, I'll figure it out.




Well I am pretty busy with things, was there something specific I can help you with?

If you are creating a 100th-level spellcaster then I suggest that you use the system I created over on my website. Otherwise its going to take you ages to work out spell lists.

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff9.htm

I also suggest giving everyone max skill ranks + skill bonus in known skills. That'll cut down the time spent messing about with that.

As for dealing damage, I have a rule in my Bestiary for how density (and muscle density) affects damage. Basically, every 15* points of strength above the average for that size (ie. 10 or medium) your base damage dice increases by one category.

eg. With 25 strength you could deal damage 2d6 damage with a longsword, with 40 strength you could deal 2d8, with 55 strength you could deal 4d6 etc.

*Anyone with the Bestiary will know it says 20, but that will change in the official version. 

As for what happened versus Io, I would point out that the author was probably trying to balance it using official applications of Challenge Rating, which in my experience are 2/3rds of the monsters ECL. Therefore Io is probably akin to ECL 146. Which is undoubtedly why you are getting creamed Ozmar, because individual characters are not of a Challenge Rating equal to their level.

Its the same way that a Balor would easily defeat a single 20th-level character.

The official Challenge Ratings were designed to give a fairly tough challenge for a party of 4 PCs. 

You would be better putting a single character up against something of CR 66 or thereabouts. Although the PC (especially one thats just been created rather than evolved over time) should be the slight favourite in such an encounter.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Balancing out the characters to be roughly equally effective will, I suspect, be most difficult. I know my character is so not minmaxed for combat it isn't funny.
> I'm working on my bard character, and will post a reworked version this weekend (I hope).
> 
> The ranger and monk seem great.
> ...




I am bust this weekend too, but I might try to post something also.  Anyway, I have zero XP concerning Epic DMing.  I have lots of XP in DMing highlevel 1`st edition stuff, but I may get bogged down in rules and such.  Anyway, if I post something for the Module, and you think of something better, let's hear it, that is what this is all about.   

I am mostly awaiting to see what everyone has for characters and powers and such before I get too involved


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2005)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Hey DM-Rocco!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have a dedicated nut making a cleric and a wizard for the trials.  He will make something, but if you have one prepared and want to post one, that would be great, just so we can see what is possible.

Right now, I am waiting to see how everyones characters are coming and then I want to start posting parts of the adventure.  You have far more XP concerning such highlevel stuff, so you may think of lots of things that I will not.  I kind of was planning on only writing part of it while others wrote a portion of it as well and I just edited it so it would all fit, but I don't mind taking in most of the work, it will just go slower.

I know you must have ideas for traps and encounters and such, so if you have something you are dieing to try out, please post your ideas.  It will most likely be your one and only chance to through out your ideas for your immortal handbook in a working application


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 26, 2005)

*Scion of Eternity*

OK, I am mostly done. There are still a few details to iron out. I am going to attach the character in a zipped Excel spreadsheet, and just post the "highlights" here.

*Scion of Eternity*
LN Human (Outsider, Dragon) Monk 30 / Sorcerer 60 / Dragon Disciple 10

*Hit Points:* 3629 (used average) 
*Initiative:* +32
*Speed:* 130', fly 130 (average)
*Armor Class:* 216 (+50 armor, +25 shield, +32 Dex, -2 natural armor, +33 Deflection, +32 Wis, +6 monk, +10 luck, +10 insight, +10 sacred)
*Base Attack/Grapple: * +55/+91
*Attack:* +119 Fist 2d10+61 (+2d6 vs. chaos) (18-20/x2) (epic, adamantine, lawful, axiomatic, vorpal) (stun fist DC 92)
*Full Attack:* +119 / +119 / +119 / +114 / +109 Fist
*Space/Reach:* 5/5
*Special Attacks:* Stunning Fist 47/day, DC 92, Quivvering Palm 1/week, DC 57, Vorpal Strike, spells, telekinesis at will 
*Special Qualities:* SR 112, DR 10/magic and 15/adamantine, Epic Spell Reflection, Infinite Deflection, Exception Deflection, "Immune" to Mord's Disjunction, Immunities: mundane disease, poison, death effects, critical hits, all energy types
*Saves:* F +115, R +114, W +114
*Abilities:* Str 82, Dex 74, Con 76, Int 65, Wis 74, Cha 76
*Skills:* (lots) Notably: Concentration +103, Spellcraft +118, Know(arcane) (103 ranks)

*Monk Abilities / Feats:*  
Unarmed Strike (2d10), Greater Flurry, Ki Strike (epic, adamantine, lawful), Stunning Fist (47/day, DC 92), Deflect Arrows, Infinite Deflection, Reflect Arrows, Exceptional Deflection, Improved Evasion, Combat Reflexes, Still Mind, Slow Fall (infinite), Improved Disarm, Purity of Body, Diamond Body, Wholeness of Body (60 hp/day), Abundant Step (1/day, CL 15), Diamond Soul (SR 40), Quivering Palm (1/week, DC 57), Timeless Body, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, Empty Body (30 rds/day), Perfect Self (DR 10/magic), Weapon Focus (fist), Epic Weapon Focus (fist), Improved Critical (fist), Improved Ki Strike (epic), Righteous Strike, Keen Strike, Vorpal Strike, Shattering Strike

*Metamagic Feats:*  
Still Spell, Silent Spell, Empower Spell, Heighten Spell, Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, Improved Heighten Spell, Intensify Spell, Enhance Spell

*Arcane Feats:*  
Arcane Preparation, Dragon Familiar, Epic Skill Focus (spellcraft), Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity (x11), Familiar Spell (telekinetic sphere), Automatic Quicken Spell (x3), Multispell, Spell Knowledge (x2), Spell Stowaway (time stop), Spell Stowaway (wish), Innate Spell (telekinesis), Eschew Material Components, Ignore Material Components

*Spells:* 
Sorcerer Caster Level 60, DC = 43 + SL
Per Day: 6/15/14/14/14/14/13/13/13/13/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/12
Known: 9/5/5/4/4/4/3/4/5/4

*Spell List:*
1. Magic Missile, True Strike, Jump, Shield, Grease
2. Scintillating Scales, Acid Arrow, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Spider Climb
3. Haste, Water Breathing, Clairvoyance, Sleet Storm
4. Greater Invisibility, Solid Fog, Polymorph, Dimension Door
5. Burning Blood, Teleport, Wall of Force, Telekinesis
6. Disintegrate, Tenser's Transformation, True Seeing
7. Limited Wish, Forcecage, Prismatic Spray, Reverse Gravity
8. Prismatic Wall, Mind Blank, Dimensional Lock, Telekinetic Sphere, Polymorph Any Object
9. Wish, Time Stop, Shapechange, Gate

*Epic Spells:* (10 per day)
Time Duplicate (modified to trigger on Safe Time's casting)
Safe Time
Crown of Vermin (modified: instead of bugs, they are tiny time elementals - just a cosmetic change)
Epic Mage Armor (modified: +50 armor bonus)
Dragon Strike
Epic Spell Reflection
Greater Ruin
Hellball
Memento Mori
Ward vs. Mord's Disjunction (up to 30th level - any Mord's Disjunction simply does not affect me)
dev cost: 6,408,000gp

*Equipment:*

Major Items
*Headband of Ultimate Perfect Excellence:* +50 enhancement bonus to all stats. 150,000,000gp  (I guess I should break this up into separate items...)

*Amulet of Supreme Natural Fighting:* +25 enhancement bonus to unarmed attacks and damage, +10 enhancement bonus to natural armor, allows wearer to suppress (as a free action and at will) a Tenser's Transformation effect on his person (a very specific anti-magic effect). 39,600,000gp

*Mantle of Supreme Protection:* SR 112, +30 resistance on all saves. 19,000,000gp

Lesser Items
*Ring of Epic Force Shield +25:* 12,500,000gp
*Ring of Universal Energy Immunity:* 2,160,000gp
*Belt of Divine Fortuitous Insight:* +10 sacred, +10 luck, +10 insight bonuses to AC. 750,000gp
*Gauntlets of Invulnerability:* DR 15/adamantine, immune to crits. 400,000gp
*Earring of Death Ward:* 224,000gp
*Ioun Stones:* (no food, water or air) 24,000gp

Gold: 18,936,000gp remaining

*Familiar:*
Draco Plata
Silver Dragon Wyrmling
7 Hit Dice, ECL 60, 1814 hit points
AC 41, SR 65, no DR
Attack: +57 bite 1d6+1 damage
Breath Weapon: 20' cone (or 40' line) of cold 2d8 or paralyzing gas 1d6+1 rds, DC 41 
Saves: F +53, R +52, W +54
Abils: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 14
Feats: Clinging Breath, Improved Speed (50', fly 120'), Shape Breath
Special: alternate form, immune to cold and acid, vuln to fire, cloudwalking, uses master's skill ranks, Familiar Spells (Telekinetic Sphere, Teleport x2, Greater Invisibility, Polymorph Any Object, Disintegrate)

*Tactics:*

Constant Spells:
Persistent Scintillating Scales (lasts 24 hours, uses level 8 slot, adds +Con Defl to AC, and reduces natural armor by half Con bonus)
Burning Blood (lasts 60 hours, anyone in 5 feet takes 60 points cold damage (no save) if I am wounded by a melee attack)
Telekinesis at will (bull rush, disarm, grapple or trip at +93, throw objects at +88, move up to 375 pounds, save DC 48)
Epic Mage Armor (+50 armor)
Epic Spell Reflection (any spell of 9th level or less that targets me is automatically reflected on caster)
Ward vs. MD (the area of effect of any Mord's Disjunction cast at level 30 or lower does not include me)
Safe Time & Time Duplicate (both have the same trigger: if I take 50 points of damage or more from one hit, then I am moved out of time for one round and my future self from one round in the future comes back to act while I am out of time. In the second round, we are both gone.)
Crown of Vermin (keep this cloud suppressed continually, since suppressed time doesn't count against its duration. Can be activated as a free action to deal 1000 points of damage (no save) to a target.)

Additional Tactical Notes:
With deflection feats, I can automatically deflect an infinite number of missile attacks per round, including spell effects, and they rebound on the attacker/caster.
By casting Tenser's Transformation, I can add +45 to my attack bonus for up to 60 rounds. I have an item to suppress this spell if I need to cast other spells.
By casting True Strike as a free action (up to twice in a round) I can add +20 to an attack. Thus, the maximum AC I can hit is 184+d20, or about 200.

I picture this guy as "ageless", and "outside the stream of time". He's aligned with Chronepsis and the Lawful gods of time and eternity. He has a demiplane with a monastery/fortress, and has a prepared clone there, with a few wishes and favors of higher powers that ensure that his items will be tied to his soul on his death, thus they cannot be stolen or lost - if he returns in the cloned body, his items will come with him. He gains a new Silver Dragon familiar every five years, because once it grows past wyrmling stage, it cannot be a familair, so I suspect he has a long-standing arrangement with a clan of silver dragons, where he apprentices their young as his familiar. Thus he has a good relationship with a clan of silver dragon allies. He probably also has favors owed and good contacts with the Lawful deities of Mechanus and other gods of time.

If he were ever seriously threatened by anything, I think he would just leave, and find some allies to help him deal with the situation. The more I look at it, the more I think that 100th level dudes are simply beyond such trivialities as combat. For one thing, how could they hurt each other? If anyone wants to find out, I'll take this guy on head-to-head against your character. Roll initiative! >

Ozmar the Uber-Cheese Monk/Sorcerer


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 26, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> OK, I am mostly done. There are still a few details to iron out. I am going to attach the character in a zipped Excel spreadsheet, and just post the "highlights" here.
> 
> *Scion of Eternity*
> LN Human (Outsider, Dragon) Monk 30 / Sorcerer 60 / Dragon Disciple 10
> ...




*flexes fingers* okay, first thing is first, how are you getting +10 sacred AC and +10 luck AC.  AC is something we have to watch, inspite of my jokes of making a duelist with a +300 AC.  You can't add in more AC from abnormal sources, so you can add a bracers of armor +25 (which is the max for such an item in this setting) but you couldn't make a set of "Luck" bracers that give a +25 luck bonus.  Right now, you couldn't punch yourself in the face   

Your head band of uber Ozmar excellence can only go as high as a +25 enhancement bonus for each stat, also you need to figure paying more for an off slot.

Amulet of Supreme Natural Fighting - I would rather see a pair of guantlets that you enchanted as a weapon.  You can't enchant gloves as weapon, kind of gay, but you can guanlets.


Belt of Divine Fortuitous Insight - ah, this is where you are getting all the odd bonuses, try again please.


Gauntlets of Invulnerability: - I would rather see some type of clothing or bracer that this went on.


er, perhaps someone with more knowledge can check on his epic spells.  Good as time as any to figure out if they are too overpowered.

Please fix the other stuff.  I may have missed a few things, I will check it over agian once you fix the stuff above.

DM-Rocco the Stern


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 26, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> *flexes fingers* okay, first thing is first, how are you getting +10 sacred AC and +10 luck AC.  AC is something we have to watch, inspite of my jokes of making a duelist with a +300 AC.  You can't add in more AC from abnormal sources, so you can add a bracers of armor +25 (which is the max for such an item in this setting) but you couldn't make a set of "Luck" bracers that give a +25 luck bonus.  Right now, you couldn't punch yourself in the face
> 
> Your head band of uber Ozmar excellence can only go as high as a +25 enhancement bonus for each stat, also you need to figure paying more for an off slot.
> 
> ...




Well, I admit my weak area is in item creation. I haven't really sat down to cheese those rules yet, and kind of "winged it". But for inspiration on most of these I took a cue from other people's entries on this board.

Waddya mean you can only go up to +25 enhancement for each stat? The posted rules  say +50 enhancement is max (and your own Dwarven Defender  has items with +30). What gives? 

I got Gauntlets of Invulnerability and several other items from Sage. In particular, his "Sonasti the Untouchable" has a shirt with insight, luck and sacred bonuses to AC, so I started there and looked at the DMG to generate the Belt. 

The Amulet of Supreme Natural Fighting is just an Amulet of Mighty Fists (see the DMG) extended to a +25 bonus. I am not sure if the math is right, but I think it's just 3 times more expensive than a +25 sword.

Anywho... as I said, items are not my forte. I actually built the character pretty much without them (except for +50 enhancements across the board) and then threw items on at the end. I may not have any of them priced right, and would be happy to fix them, and any helpful suggestions are welcome. But lets be consistent! What are the "rules" for item creation? Either you forgot them, or I am looking at the wrong posts in this thread to figure them out. (Also, if another character has one, then why can't I? *pout* )

Ozmar the Petulant


----------



## Sage (Aug 27, 2005)

My turn to look at Scion of Eternity


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> LN Human (Outsider, Dragon)



I'm pretty sure you can only have one type, you'll have to decide weather you got monk 20 or DD 10 first.


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Ward vs. Mord's Disjunction (up to 30th level - any Mord's Disjunction simply does not affect me)
> dev cost: 6,408,000gp



I'll check this and the other ones later, but do you mind making this an area spell? It would be a big help to the rest of the group.
You could also simply cast a contingent Mordenkainens disjunction as a counterspell whenever anyone within, say, 100 miles casts mordenkainens disjunction?


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Waddya mean you can only go up to +25 enhancement for each stat? The posted rules  say +50 enhancement is max (and your own Dwarven Defender  has items with +30). What gives?



The rules are:
max +50 enhancement bonus to armor and/or weapon, of which only +25 are a straight enhancement bonus.​You automatically get the maximum +5 inherent bonus to ability scores across the board.​max +30 enhancement bonus to any ability score.​armor bonuses allowed: armor, shield, enhancement (armor), enhancement (shield), natural armor and deflection.​Only resistance bonuses to saves (in case you were wondering)​


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> I got Gauntlets of Invulnerability and several other items from Sage. In particular, his "Sonasti the Untouchable" has a shirt with insight, luck and sacred bonuses to AC, so I started there and looked at the DMG to generate the Belt.



I was forced to change this, my character is attached.


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Amulet of Supreme Natural Fighting



I don't see why this can't work, technically, it can be sundered, just like everything else... if you don't want your monk "polluted" with gauntlets you might settle for hand and wrist straps that take the item slot for gauntlets?


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Persistent Scintillating Scales (lasts 24 hours, uses level 8 slot, adds +Con Defl to AC, and reduces natural armor by half Con bonus)
> Burning Blood (lasts 60 hours, anyone in 5 feet takes 60 points cold damage (no save) if I am wounded by a melee attack)



The first ones unclear and the second one extremeky powerful (if non-epic). What are their sources?


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Crown of Vermin (keep this cloud suppressed continually, since suppressed time doesn't count against its duration. Can be activated as a free action to deal 1000 points of damage (no save) to a target.)



Actually it does, but I suspect your duration is permanent anyway.


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> If anyone wants to find out, I'll take this guy on head-to-head against your character. Roll initiative!



I might consider this once I get my tactics sorted out (and add the fortified ability to my armor).


----------



## Sage (Aug 27, 2005)

ELH said:
			
		

> *Great Reflection:* Any time its bearer of this shield is targeted with a spell, it automatically reflects the spell back at the caster (as the spell turning spell). The wearer can lower or raise this effect as a free action (thus allowing beneficial spells in as desired).
> Caster Level: 25th; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, spell turning; Market Price: +10 bonus.




Funny I didn't see this before... it's basically immunity to all spells that aren't area spells.


----------



## Sage (Aug 27, 2005)

Right here are a few new/changed items for my collection and a list of my characters abilities. I'll probably have to read it myself a few times before I can remember it all. I tried to do some sort of division to help, but it isn't great.

*Magic Items*


> Suit of protection (takes the place of shirt)
> This is a series of silk cloths woven around most of the body
> leaving many stray peices that whirl un the wind or under movement
> They grant:
> ...




*Tactical Breakdown*


> Epic Rogue Tactics
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> PC Name      : Sonasti the untouchable
> ----------------------------------------------------------
> ...




Actually, simulated battles, PC vs PC or against monsters are probably a good way to get rid of the most obvious weaknesses ones character undoubtedly has.


----------



## Sage (Aug 27, 2005)

I'll just keep posting   :

My munchkining may be taking overhand; if a magic item only can be used by a specific alignment or class it's cost is reduced by 30%, since I have so much in Use Magic Device that this wouldn't make a difference would it be over the top to do this to my most expensive items?

lol I can hit Io once per day


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 28, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> My turn to look at Scion of Eternity
> 
> I'm pretty sure you can only have one type, you'll have to decide weather you got monk 20 or DD 10 first.




Yes... He gained Monk 20 first, but I was unsure if an Outsider would change to a Dragon, or remain an Outsider? Read one way, the DD changes his type, but there is also a "hierarchy" of creature types and Outsider sits on the top, so I was not sure if the type should change? If it does, then I guess he's a Dragon (although Outsider seems more appropriate...) I guess if I were going to write him up as an NPC, I'd give him the Outsider type with a special quality of "Dragon Qualities: For spells and effects and meeting the prerequisites of things, he is either an Outsider or a Dragon, whichever is more beneficial." I think some gods have little blurbs like that, and it seems appropriate to beings of this power.



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> I'll check this and the other ones later, but do you mind making this [Ward vs. Mord's Disjunction] an area spell? It would be a big help to the rest of the group.
> You could also simply cast a contingent Mordenkainens disjunction as a counterspell whenever anyone within, say, 100 miles casts mordenkainens disjunction?




Sure, that's not a bad idea (area). I am not sure about your contingent idea. Are you talking about an epic spell? Because _contingency_ wouldn't work with a 9th level spell. Also, that sounds like a one-shot tactic. I think the Ward would be active all the time, so would be a better idea.



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> The rules are:
> max +50 enhancement bonus to armor and/or weapon, of which only +25 are a straight enhancement bonus.​You automatically get the maximum +5 inherent bonus to ability scores across the board.​max +30 enhancement bonus to any ability score.​armor bonuses allowed: armor, shield, enhancement (armor), enhancement (shield), natural armor and deflection.​Only resistance bonuses to saves (in case you were wondering)​
> I was forced to change this, my character is attached.




Well, poop.    I guess I'll have to make some major mods. I don't care about the items (they are mostly tacked on as an afterthought) but I am a bit bummed about the stats. He's stat-driven, and losing 20 points across the board hurts...

That "max +30 enhancement bonus to any ability score", is that an inviolable restriction across all sources and types? Or is it just referring to items? Because now I am thinking about epic spells to boost abilities, and spells or items that grant different types of bonuses to abilities...

I will need to be more creative on these items. 



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> I don't see why this [amulet of mighty fists] can't work, technically, it can be sundered, just like everything else... if you don't want your monk "polluted" with gauntlets you might settle for hand and wrist straps that take the item slot for gauntlets?




Naw, I don't care. They can be gauntlets. I just made them an amulet because that's what they are in the DMG.



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> The first ones unclear and the second one extremeky powerful (if non-epic). What are their sources?




Both are spells in the Draconomicon. What is unclear about Scintillating Scales? When cast, it adds your Con bonus as a deflection bonus to your AC, but it also reduces your natural armor bonus by half your Con bonus. Burning Blood is a non-epic spell. It deals your caster level in damage as described (and it is cold damage because that's the dragon's breath-weapon type. I guess he has the Cold subtype also...)



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Actually it does, but I suspect your duration is permanent anyway.




Are we reading the same spell description for Crown of Vermin? From the SRD: "The character can completely suppress his or her vermin aura as a free action so that no vermin are visible at all. The time that vermin are suppressed does not count toward the spell’s duration."

And I wouldn't make it permanent - it expires as it is used, because the buggies die.

Oh wait... I just had a thought that you might be thinking of a spell effect suppressed in an AM field. Yes, time spent suppressed in such a way does count towards its duration, as a general rule. But Crown of Vermin has a specific property in its description.



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> I might consider this once I get my tactics sorted out (and add the fortified ability to my armor).




Cool.  But we won't be able to hurt each other. We'd have to settle our differences by playing cards or something....

Ozmar the Invulnerable


----------



## Sage (Aug 28, 2005)

Yeah, I was thinking of Antimagic sphere

I've checked the prices of your items. I'll look at the spells later.

Ozmars Item prices:
-----------------------------------

Headband of Ultimate Perfect Excellence
+ 30 enhancement bonus to each stat
Price 6*9,000,000 = 54,000,000 gp

Since max limit is 50,000,000 gp you'll have to split this one up.

Amulet of Supreme Natural Fighting
+25 to unarmed attacks 12,500,000 gp
+10 to natural armor 1,000,000 gp
Supress tensers transformation  ??gp
right... you priced this at 39,600,000 gp which should more than make up for the tenser thing

mantle of supreme protection
SR 112 = 10,000,000 gp
+30 to saves 3*18,000,000 =54,000,000 gp
Price: 64,000,000 gp again you'll have to split it.

Ring of epic force shield +25
??? explanation please



> Armor Class: 216 (+50 armor, +25 shield, +32 Dex, -2 natural armor, +33 Deflection, +32 Wis, +6 monk, +10 luck, +10 insight, +10 sacred)



+50 armor from epic spell right?... is this a force effect?
+25 shield, from ring?
+32 Dex = +22 Dex
-2 natural armor = +13 - 11 = +2 natural armor
+33 deflection, = +22 deflection
+32 wis = +22 wis
+6 monk

Final AC = 10+ 50 + 25 + 22 + 2 + 22 + 22 + 6 = 159

yup, I can't hit you, but you could probably hit me if you can beat my hide check of 230  



			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Both are spells in the Draconomicon. What is unclear about Scintillating Scales? When cast, it adds your Con bonus as a deflection bonus to your AC, but it also reduces your natural armor bonus by half your Con bonus.



I just thought it sounded wierd and actually reduced your opponent's natural armor, but you didn't specify which opponents etc. This explains it.


			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Burning Blood is a non-epic spell. It deals your caster level in damage as described (and it is cold damage because that's the dragon's breath-weapon type. I guess he has the Cold subtype also...)



 :\ ... most spell like this have a damage cap, especially 5th-level spells, though this probably isn't overpowered _per se_.

Anyway, you should probably re-post your character after the extensive ability score changes.

Oh, and is there anything at all that would let me hide at a free action, or gives me an extra move action per round in which I could hide. It would be super useful for my character.


----------



## LordBOB (Aug 29, 2005)

*HEAD EXPLODES*  im reading through your characters and its starting to hurt my head.  Im glad that ozmar decided to take my charcter idea and build it instead of me. 

   THANKS OZMAR!!!!!!!!


----------



## Yair (Aug 29, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Oh, and is there anything at all that would let me hide at a free action, or gives me an extra move action per round in which I could hide. It would be super useful for my character.



Psionics _hustle_ can do that, but I don't think we want to put psionics into the play. (Though if we do, I'll be glad to make a psionics character character insteda of my bard, which is giving me some combat problems.) In the core rules, I don't know any such option.


----------



## Verequus (Aug 29, 2005)

Regarding types and their stacking - in this thread http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=143680 this very problem is discussed. There is a pyramid, which puts Outsider above Dragon, but one could rule, that a class feature is a special occasion, which trumps a better type.


----------



## Sage (Aug 29, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Psionics hustle can do that, but I don't think we want to put psionics into the play.



That's just what I need, I can basically hide anywhere due to my self-concealment feat, but that would only allow me 1 attack per round. I hope DM-Rocco makes a ruling on this.

Anyway, I'm starting university this week so I'll not be able to post till at least friday.


----------



## Ozmar (Aug 29, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Ring of epic force shield +25
> ??? explanation please




It is like a ring of force shield (see DMG), except a +25 bonus instead of +2. Its based on the shield spell, so it is a force effect and provides a shield bonus to AC.



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> +50 armor from epic spell right?... is this a force effect?




Yes to both. Is there a limit as to how much an epic spell is allowed to add? Because I haven't maxed out its potential. For one thing, I notice that we allow an item that grants +100 to a skill. If I had such an item, my Spellcraft would allow me to make obscene epic spells (I'd have +230 or so in Spellcraft... which is worth about a +80 or +90 on the epic mage armor I think...)



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> +25 shield, from ring?




Yep.



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Anyway, you should probably re-post your character after the extensive ability score changes.




Yeah... looks that way. 

Ozmar the Flexible


----------



## Sage (Aug 29, 2005)

well... I'll be able to post for the rest of the day   



			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> It is like a ring of force shield (see DMG), except a +25 bonus instead of +2. Its based on the shield spell, so it is a force effect and provides a shield bonus to AC.




Technically, this is impossible; either you create a spell which adds +25 bonus to AC, which would be an epic spell and can't be contained in a magic item. Or you intensify force shield many times bringing its level so high that the item would have an obscene price.

This is how it could be done:
Ring of Epic Force shield.
Generates shield as per ring of force shield (DMG) 8,500 gp
Adds +23 enhancement bonus to shield 5,290,000 gp
Price: 5,298,500 gp

The effect is exactly the same, rules basically smoothed out and you save about 7,000,000 gp _plus_ you can add stuff to the shield like "exeptional deflection" and the like    



			
				Ozmar said:
			
		

> Is there a limit as to how much an epic spell is allowed to add? Because I haven't maxed out its potential. For one thing, I notice that we allow an item that grants +100 to a skill. If I had such an item, my Spellcraft would allow me to make obscene epic spells (I'd have +230 or so in Spellcraft... which is worth about a +80 or +90 on the epic mage armor I think...)




I don't think there's a limit to the spells, if you can beat the DC go right ahead IMO.
Speaking of beating DCs I tried making one of my daggers intelligent and it ended up with an ego of 115 so I just decided to leave it as it was.


----------



## Sage (Aug 29, 2005)

Here are your spells I've posted the spellcraft DC and Developement price since I wasn't sure if you'll have to pay for them or not. I've also optimized most of the to your 230 spellcraft check.

Ozmars Epic Spells:
-----------------------------------
Time Duplicate (modified to trigger on Safe Time's casting)
DC 96
Price: 864,000 gp

Safe Time
DC: 64
Price: 576,000 gp

Crown of Vermin (modified: instead of bugs, they are tiny time elementals - just a cosmetic change)
DC: 56
Price: 504,000 gp

Epic Mage Armor (modified: +50 armor bonus)
DC: 106
Price: 954,000 gp

Epic Mage Armor (modified: +100 armor bonus)
DC: 214
Price: 1,926,000 gp

Dragon Strike (<-------- useless! you need 11 other casters!)
DC: 50
Price: 450,000 gp

Epic Spell Reflection (<--------- since duration permanent, should be cast on all in group)
DC: 68
Price: 630,000 gp

Greater Ruin
DC: 59
Price: 531,000 gp

Greater Ruin with 120d6 damage
DC: 229
Price: 2,061,000 gp

Hellball
DC: 90
Price: 810,000 gp

Hellball with 26d6 of each energy type (not cold), no backslash, and no XP cost
DC: 230
Price: 2,070,000 gp

Memento Mori
DC: 86
Price: 774,000 gp

Memento Mori with +72 to saving throw
DC: 230
Price: 2,070,000 gp

Ward vs. Mord's Disjunction (up to 30th level - any Mord's Disjunction simply does not affect me)
dev cost: 6,408,000gp <--------------     an epic spell with that developement cost would have a DC of 721!!!

Ward vs. Mord's Disjunction (up to 30th level - any Mord's Disjunction simply does not affect me and up to 15 others, duration 24 hours)
DC: 222
Price: 1,998,000


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 30, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> Well, I admit my weak area is in item creation. I haven't really sat down to cheese those rules yet, and kind of "winged it". But for inspiration on most of these I took a cue from other people's entries on this board.
> 
> Waddya mean you can only go up to +25 enhancement for each stat? The posted rules  say +50 enhancement is max (and your own Dwarven Defender  has items with +30). What gives?
> 
> ...




Er, damn players, oh, I'm on.  Well, how do you like that, I guess I do have a +30, and you don't  

My mistake, it is +30, a +6 for every 20 levels, it helps to balance everything out, otherwise way too nuts.

I will check out the shirt.

About the amulet, I was just thinking you could do guantlets because you can enchant them up to +50, +25 enhancment and then a +25 item modifer, things like vorpal and stuff.  But you can keep that if you want too, but it costs more.

So fix them or I'll drive down to Cottage Grove and pout some more  

No big deal, there is a learning curve, I don't even know all the rules for 100th level building


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 30, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Funny I didn't see this before... it's basically immunity to all spells that aren't area spells.




Doesn't help against mords but Great Reflection was one of the first things I took on my dwarf for armor, very nice


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 30, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> That's just what I need, I can basically hide anywhere due to my self-concealment feat, but that would only allow me 1 attack per round. I hope DM-Rocco makes a ruling on this.
> 
> Anyway, I'm starting university this week so I'll not be able to post till at least friday.



There is a feat in the Arcana Unearthed, I think it is called burst of speed, I think it gives you an extra move action a round, either once or three times a day.  I will look into other options for you too.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 30, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Here are your spells I've posted the spellcraft DC and Developement price since I wasn't sure if you'll have to pay for them or not. I've also optimized most of the to your 230 spellcraft check.
> 
> Ozmars Epic Spells:
> -----------------------------------
> ...




I would say yes, you would have to pay for them


----------



## Yair (Aug 30, 2005)

I agree that epic spell development costs should be purchased through character wealth.

I'm having less time and more difficulties with my Kolshadai (bard) character than I thought. As I'm already late and my promises, I post a temporary version below. I welcome suggestions, and indeed have some questions...
I'm using Leadership and associated feats, but only to set a limit on the number of people he can perform or diplomize to become fanatic followers; no cohort of followers are provided, nor really expected in-game (well, followers should accrue, but at such low levels their stats are not important anyways so a blanket "100,000 low-level followers" should suffice). I hope that's OK?
Perhaps most importantly, should I trade Improved Spellcasting and metamagic feats for Epic Inspiration? In other words, will your characters desire a +15 or so competence or morale bonus to attack, damage, AC, or so on? Would it matter enough for it to be worthwhile having the bard around? And could DC ~60 saves possibly fail at our levels?
Also, can anyone give me an advice on how high to set my saves? Attack bonus? AC? HP? It's all pretty arbitrary, I can push them up or a lot down, but I'm not sure where I want to push them to. 
Any glaring errors, omissions, or just comments are of course welcome. (I know I'm missing a Mind Blank ring, for one thing... and some epic spells...)
And I'm sorry I'm not delving into the details of your characters/spells/items right now, I'm kinda busy...

[sblock]*Kolshadai, the Voice of God *CR100
Male Middle-Aged Human Bard 69/Cleric 9/High Prosletyzer 22
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
_Uses SRD, including Divine and Epic sections_
*Senses* Listen +54, Spot +5
*Languages* all 
---
*AC* 86, touch 56, flat-footed 76; *SR* 112
*Hp* 983 (20d6+9d8+22d8+49d6 HD+500+100 divine power); *DR* 15/adamatine
*Immune* energies, 4th level spells, 
*Fort* +98, *Ref *+110, *Will *+96
---
*Init *+13; *Spd *60 ft, fly 60 ft. (good)
*Melee *Rapier +76/71/66/61 (1d6+7+3d6 sonic +1d6 electricity+2d6 vs. evil 16-20/x2; on critical +3d6 sonic+1d10 electricity]
*Base Atk* +60; *GRP *+67
*Atk Options* _haste _20rds 3/day, divine might feat, turn undead 37/day
*Combat Gear*
_Armor of the Celestial Battalion (+7 enhancement chain mail, +10 max dex, light armor, fly at will, magic circle against evil) (616300 gp) of Heavy Fortification (+5), modified to +25 enhancement. (9,567,300 gp)
_Buckler +25 of Great Reflection (+10) and Infinite Arrow Deflection (+6) (21,160,300 gp) 
_Adamantine Rapier +10 Sonic Blast (+6) Keen (+1) Shocking Burst (+2); NG, Int 24, Wis 26, Cha 10, speech in Common, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Draconic, Sylvan, plus 2 other languages, special purpose (spread god’s faith) with true resurrection 1/month as its power, plus greater teleport 2/day, mass heal 1/day, true seeing at will, heal 2/day, detect evil at will, feather fall 1/day, wielder doesn’t need to sleep or breath; Ego 67. (9,381,300 gp)
---
*Bard Spells Per Day* [CL 69, +2 penetration] 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1/1
*Bard Spells Known* 6/5/5/5/5/5/4+2 [+3 DC Enchantment]
6th- analyze dweomer, mass charm monster, heroe’s feast, greater scerying, greater shout
5th- greater dispel magic, dream, false vision, greater heroism, mass suggestion
4th- break enchantment, detect scrying, dimension door, dominate person, legend lore, 
3rd- charm monster, confusion, dispel magic, displacement, slow
2nd- detect thoughts, hold person, mirror image, silence, suggestion, whispering wind
1st- charm person, feather fall, hideous laughter, identify, remove fear
0th- detect magic, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic
*Cleric Spells Prepared* [CL 20, +2 penetration]
 [not selected]
---
*Abilities *Str 24, Dex 37, Con 20, Int 25, Wis 20, Cha 78
*SQ *_heal _6/day, Charm/Nobility domain power, bardic knowledge, evasion
*Feats *Automatic Quicken Spell x2, Automatic Silent Spell x3, Disguised Spell, Divine Might, Enlarge Spell, Epic Inspiration, Epic Leadership, Epic Reputation, Epic Skill Focus (Perform Oratory), Epic Spell Focus (Enchantment), Epic Spellcasting, Extend Spell, Great Charisma x2, Great Fortitude, Greater Spell Focus (Enchantment), Heighten Spell, Improved Heighten Spell, Improved Metamagic, Improved Spell Capacity x13, Inspire Excellence, Lasting Inspiration, Leadership, Legendary Commander, Multispell, Music of the Gods, Negotiator, Permanent Emanation (detect thoughts), Permanent Emanation (globe of invulnerability), Persistent Spell, Polyglot, Quicken Spell, Ranged Inspiration, Reactive Countersong, Repeat Spell, Silent Spell, Skill Focus (Perform Oratory), Spell Focus (Enchantment), Spell Knowledge, Spell Penetration, Spontaneous Domain Access (Charm)
*Skills *Balance +33, Bluff +38, Climb +27, Concentration +28, Diplomacy +134, Gather Information +87, Intimidate +38, Jump +27, Knowledge (Arcana) +110, Knowledge (Nature) +97, Knowledge (Religion) +110, Knowledge (The Planes) +9, Listen +54, Perform (Oratory) +264, Perform (Wind Instruments) +61, Sense Motive +7, Speak Language 5, Spellcraft +210, Tumble +33+5x49 ranks
---
*Possessions *
_Tome of X +5 have all been read (0 gp)
_Periapt of Wisdom +6, Health +6 (90000 gp)
_Headband of Intellect +7, +100 competence to Spellcraft (15036000 gp)
_Gauntlet of Divine Power (CL 100 continuous), +12 Strength enhancement (34160000 gp)
_Cloak of Charisma +30, Epic Resistance +45, Spell Resistance 112 (52315000 gp)
_Bracelets of Oratory, +100 competence to Perform Oratory (10000000 gp)
_Ring of Universal Energy Immunity (2160000 gp)
_Ring of Protection +10 and Ironskin DR 15/adamantine (2600000 gp)
_Boots of Swiftness, +20 enhancement to Dexterity, double speed, evasion, jumping not limited by height, +20 competence to Balance, Climb, Jump, & Tumble, haste 20 rounds 3/day via command word. 
_Trumpet of the Apocalypse (Widened Holy Word, CL 200) (40000000 gp)

*Bardic Knowledge *(Ex): He may check with +76; DC 30 for extremely obscure knowledge.
*Bardic Music*: 69/day, as a standard action. His bardic music can affect creatures immune to mind-effects, which gain a +10 bonus to their Will saves.
__Countersong_ (Su): For up to 10 rounds, Perform check replaces Will  save for sonic/language-dependent magics within 60 feet. Reactive Countersong allows him to start a countersong at any time (out of his turn).
__Fascinate_ (Sp): Up to 23 creatures within 180 feet may be fascinated for up to 69 rounds (Will DC is Perform check).  
__Inspire Courage_ (Su): Lasts 50 rounds after stops singing, allies get a +8+1 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls, and to saves against charm and fear effects.
__Inspire Competence_ (Su): As a mind-affecting ability, one ally gains a +2+1 competence bonus on one skill’s checks, for up to 20 minutes. 
__Mass Suggestion_ (Sp): He may implant a suggestion in any fascinated creature (Will DC 78 negates).
__Inspire Greatness_ (Su, mind-affecting): Up to 21 allies within 60 feet, for 50 rounds after he stops singing. Inspired creatures gain a +2+1 competence bonus to attack rolls, a +1+1 competence bonus to Fortitude saves, and 2+1 bonus d10 HD (plus Con).
__Song of Freedom_ (Sp): With a casting time of 1 minute, casts break enchantment (CL 69) on one target within 60 feet.
__Inspire Heroics_ (Su): In up to 19 allies within 60 feet, and for 50 rounds after song ends. Inspired allies gain a +4+1 morale bonus on saving throws, and a +4+1 dodge bonus to AC (mind-affecting).
_I_nspire Excellence_ (Su): After 1 full round, and for 50 rounds after song, all allies gain a +4+1 competence bonus to the same ability score.
*Charm Domain Granted Power*: The character can increase his Charisma by +4 as a free action, for 1 minute.
*Nobility Domain Granted Power*: Inspiring speech 1/day grants a +2 morale bonus to savesm attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls, lasting for 34 rounds.
*Prosletyze* (Sp): Up to 3/day. Character is under sanctuary (Will DC 16), his voice can be heard to 1200 feet, listeners understand by comprehend languages, and may be enraptured (Will DC 36; automatic for receptive low HD), becoming charmed for 2 hours. 
__Deific Touch_ 2/day he can move in the crowed, and all touched (6/round) are cured 1d4 hp, and any natural disease or poison.
__Deific Word_ 2/day words inflict 3d8 sonic damage and Will DC 17 or stunned for 3 rounds against all non-enraptured (CL 20).
__Deific Face_ 2/day can cast sunburst (CL20) on non-enraptured.
__Deific Aura_ 2/day can cast holy aura (CL20) on non-enraptured.
*Heal *(Sp): 6/day
*Evasion *
*Epic Leadership*: Kolshadai has a Leadership Score of 136 (having great renown, special power, and moves around a lot) for his followers, and is a legendary commander (x10 followers). This implies cohort level 87, 106000 level 1, 10600 level 2, 5300 level 3, 2650 level 4, 1320 level 3, 660 level 4, 330 level 5, 160 level 6, 80 level 7, 40 level 8, 20 level 9, 10 level 10; totalling 127,120 followers. (This number should serve as a limit to the number of his fanatic followers; the cohort should be waves entirely.)
*Epic Spellcasting*: Epic Spellcasting: He can cast epic spells from the arcane and both divine knowledge skills; he can cast 29 epic spells per day, with Spellcraft +210 (more with Inspire Excellence and Competence, Nobility granted power, and so on)[/sblock]


----------



## DM-Rocco (Aug 31, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I agree that epic spell development costs should be purchased through character wealth.
> 
> I'm having less time and more difficulties with my Kolshadai (bard) character than I thought. As I'm already late and my promises, I post a temporary version below. I welcome suggestions, and indeed have some questions...
> I'm using Leadership and associated feats, but only to set a limit on the number of people he can perform or diplomize to become fanatic followers; no cohort of followers are provided, nor really expected in-game (well, followers should accrue, but at such low levels their stats are not important anyways so a blanket "100,000 low-level followers" should suffice). I hope that's OK?
> ...




Don't worry about it, many of us are busy.  As to your feats, I'll take a look when I get a free moment.  All your followers have to be under 20th level, you can't have epic followers, so that shouldn't matter too much, but might make an interesting mob senerio.  As to a cohort, I didn't want any just because no one should have two 100thlevel guys, way too nuts, but I like your character concept and if you want to make a body guard that jumps infront of attacks to protect you or something wacky like a 100th level commoner that you took from the ashes and made your servent, that would be both humorous and not terribly over powering.  Well, it may be, any 100th level guy is nuts, but it would be nice to see how wacky a 100th level commoner could get too


----------



## Yair (Aug 31, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Don't worry about it, many of us are busy.  As to your feats, I'll take a look when I get a free moment.  All your followers have to be under 20th level, you can't have epic followers, so that shouldn't matter too much, but might make an interesting mob senerio.  As to a cohort, I didn't want any just because no one should have two 100thlevel guys, way too nuts, but I like your character concept and if you want to make a body guard that jumps infront of attacks to protect you or something wacky like a 100th level commoner that you took from the ashes and made your servent, that would be both humorous and not terribly over powering.  Well, it may be, any 100th level guy is nuts, but it would be nice to see how wacky a 100th level commoner could get too



LOL, one level 87 commoner cohort coming right up. 
Arrggg.... there is no Epic Commoner! I'm in shock   
I'll think about how to make an epic commoner, nonetheless.


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## Verequus (Aug 31, 2005)

The rules are, that no NPC class has more than 20 levels. Maybe this has to be stretched.


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## Ozmar (Aug 31, 2005)

An epic commoner? The mind reels...

Ozmar the Lord of the Commons

"Hey you kids! Get off the dang lawn!"


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## DM-Rocco (Aug 31, 2005)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> The rules are, that no NPC class has more than 20 levels. Maybe this has to be stretched.




Well, perhaps he could make a 20th level commoner, who then sought out work in a field of choice and got 20 levels of expert, then fought in the army for 20 levels of warrior and then returned home to glory and fame and became a 20th level noble and then took whitch/worlock levels


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## Yair (Aug 31, 2005)

Sage, would you mind if I made the Commoner take a few levels in Void Incarnate? He won't be anything like the cool Sonasti, no amazing rougish capabilities here, but if there ever was a character that screamed "blank", a level 87 commoner is it.
He _will_ have a few similarities, however - high Hide and Move Silently, and being unnoticable.
I'm currently thinking Commoner 20, Shadowdancer 7 (to qualify for), Void Incarnate 3, then as DM_Rocco suggested I'll probably pick up Expert 20, Aristocrat 20, Warrior 17. 
I'll use the Nonelite Array, and focus on Hide and Move Silently. 
Equipment... I don't know how much equipment he should have.

What say you?

Edit: On second thought, Void Incarnate 10 then Shadowdancer 9. It's a bit closer to Sage's character as he can now pass through force effects, but I like it better. If Sage objects, though, I'll waver it.


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## Sage (Sep 2, 2005)

Back from the depts of university initiation.



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> There is a feat in the Arcana Unearthed, I think it is called burst of speed, I think it gives you an extra move action a round, either once or three times a day. I will look into other options for you too.




*From Arcana Evolved:

SPEED BURST (GENRAL)*
You can move very fast in short bursts.
*Benefit:*Once per day per two character levels, the character can take an extra move action in a single round.

... I think I'll take it, it'll probably give me enough extra move actions 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> On second thought, Void Incarnate 10 then Shadowdancer 9. It's a bit closer to Sage's character as he can now pass through force effects, but I like it better. If Sage objects, though, I'll waver it.



No problem, go right ahead.

I'll look at your character later but a few stats from my character for comparison:
*Abilities:* 37, 45, 37, 70, 35, 37
*Hit Points:* 1700
*AC:* 106
*Saves:* +78, +124, +77
*Highest attack bonus with magic weapon:* +97

Even at these levels +15 is a _huge_ bonus, I think you should take the feat, you probably have loads of feats anyway.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 2, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> *From Arcana Evolved:
> 
> SPEED BURST (GENRAL)*
> You can move very fast in short bursts.
> ...




I know we agreed on certain books to stick to, but I don't see the harm in one feat out of another book.    

That, and I aim to please


----------



## Sage (Sep 5, 2005)

ok Yair I've looked at your character and here are my (less than perfect) thoughts.

*Feats you don't need*
Great Charisma x2
Legendary Commander
Negotiator
Permanent emenation (globe of invulnerability) <--- nonessential and easily replicated by magic item
Skill focus (perform oratory)
Epic Reputation <--- not sure about this one
Inspire Excellence <--- don't really know how much of a difference this can make

*Feats you should take*
(possibly) deafening song <--- I think the save DC is high enough
(possibly) Epic Inspiration <--- more times
Fast healing <--- at least once

ps. I don't think you should trade away all your spellcasting feats.

*Kolshadai's Magic Items*
Armor of the Celestial Battalion 
   +25 enhancement chain mail, 
   +10 max dex, light armor, 
   fly at will, 
   magic circle against evil) 
   Heavy Fortification (+5)
Price: 616,300 -7^2*10,000 + 30^2*10,000 = 9,126,300 gp (save 441,000 gp)

Buckler 
   +25 enhancement 
   Great Reflection (+10) 
   Infinite Arrow Deflection (+6) 
Price: 16,810,300 gp (save 4,250,000 gp)

Adamantine Rapier 
   +10 enhancement
   Sonic Blast (+6) 
   Keen (+1) 
   Shocking Burst (+2); == 7,220,000 gp
   Intelligent: NG, 
      Int 24 (2,800 gp), 
      Wis 26 (3,200 gp), 
      Cha 10, 
      speech (3,000 gp) in Common, Celestial, Infernal, Abyssal, Draconic, Sylvan, plus 2 other languages, 
      special purpose (spread god’s faith) with true resurrection 1/month as its power (50,000 gp),  
      greater teleport 2/day (100,000 gp), 
      mass heal 1/day (100,000 gp), 
      true seeing at will (25,000 gp), 
      heal 2/day (50,000 gp), 
      detect evil at will (6,000 gp), 
      feather fall 1/day (6,000 gp), 
      wielder doesn’t need to sleep or breathe (12,000 gp); 
Ego 66.  (I might've miscalculated)
Price: 7,581,500 gp (save 1,800,000 gp)

Tome of X +5 have all been read (0 gp)
_Periapt of Wisdom +6, Health +6 (90000 gp)
 ???
 Periapt of health = 7,500 gp (no +6 or anything)
 Periapt of wisdom +6 = 36,000 gp

_Headband of Intellect +7, +100 competence to Spellcraft 
Price: 100^2*1,000*1.5 + 7^2*10,000 = 15,490,000 gp (higher than your price)

_Gauntlet of Divine Power (CL 100 continuous), +12 Strength enhancement 
I've assumed you're using an intesified "Divine Power" spell though this technically wouldn't change the enhancement bonus to strength.
Price: 11*100*20,000*4 = 88,000,000 gp (way to high) if you don't intensify it (only +6 to strength it's cost is 32,000,000 gp
btw. great idea!

_Cloak of Charisma +30, Epic Resistance +45, Spell Resistance 112 (52315000 gp)
Price: 30^2*10,000 + 45^2*10,000*1.5 + 100*100,000*1.5 = 54,375,000 gp (tip: multiple different abilities cost half as much again if the item take up a slot. You should split this item up.

_Bracelets of Oratory, +100 competence to Perform Oratory 
Price: 10,000,000 gp (same)

_Ring of Universal Energy Immunity (2160000 gp)
blah

_Ring of Protection +10 and Ironskin DR 15/adamantine
Price: 400,000 + 2,000,000 gp = 2,400,000 gp (I haven't deemed this multiple abilities, otherwise the price would be 3,400,000 gp)

_Boots of Swiftness, +20 enhancement to Dexterity, double speed, evasion, jumping not limited by height, +20 competence to Balance, Climb, Jump, & Tumble, haste 20 rounds 3/day via command word.
Price: 256,000 - 6^2*1,000 + 20^2*10,000 = 4,220,000 gp

_Trumpet of the Apocalypse (Widened Holy Word, CL 200) (40000000 gp)
I'm assuming this is at will
Price: 10*200*20,000*4 = 160,000,000 gp (again way to high, plus I'm not even sure we're allowed to have items with that caster level. This price is made with the assumption that any spell with a duration less than 1 round/level e.g. instantaneous also gets its price multiplied by four, which would make sense IMO).

oh, and would people (DM-Rocco) stop quoting the entirety of another long post?


----------



## Yair (Sep 5, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> ok Yair I've looked at your character and here are my (less than perfect) thoughts.



Thanks!

I'll be keeping some of the feats, even though they may be suboptimal. I like the fact that I'm getting things from feats, rather than magic items. I'll probably drop a few as per your advice, though. 
Deafening Song will have Fort DC 78 or so, which I think is too low. Worse, it paralyses me as I can't cast spells or use other bardic music abilities, so I'll skip it.
Fast healing would require Con 25, which I currently don't have even with magic items. I may boost up Con further and take one FH feat, though; definitely a useful feat.

My main dilemma are the spellcasting feats. They eat up a lot of resources, and I THINK the DCs I can pull off just won't be worth the bother (DC 44 to 66 or so). I'm going to rethink his spells a bit, putting in a little more utility and minion-handling.
And I'll probably drop at least SOME Improved Spell Capacity feats, possibly a few metamagic feats as well.

Regarding prices: Thanks again 


> Adamantine Rapier ...
> special purpose (spread god’s faith) with true resurrection 1/month as its power (50,000 gp),
> ...
> Price: 7,581,500 gp (save 1,800,000 gp)



Ehm, see, this is where I cheated. The true resurrection bit isn't a real special ability, it's a non-epic one. At any rate, I think it's worth more than 50,000.


> _Periapt of Wisdom +6, Health +6 (90000 gp)
> ???



Doh! I meant to say Constitution +6. Ooops.



> _Gauntlet of Divine Power (CL 100 continuous), +12 Strength enhancement
> I've assumed you're using an intesified "Divine Power" spell though this technically wouldn't change the enhancement bonus to strength.
> Price: 11*100*20,000*4 = 88,000,000 gp (way to high) if you don't intensify it (only +6 to strength it's cost is 32,000,000 gp
> btw. great idea!



No, it's just a constant, normal, _divine power_ spell at caster level 100, plus a +12 enhancement bonus to Strength piled on. Somehow intensifying the spell would have been cooler, but I just have no idea how to do that. 
Note that I interpert the spell as adding +5 to my non-epic BAB, not increase my BAB to +100 (including the +40 epic bonus).



> _Trumpet of the Apocalypse (Widened Holy Word, CL 200) (40000000 gp)
> I'm assuming this is at will
> Price: 10*200*20,000*4 = 160,000,000 gp (again way to high, plus I'm not even sure we're allowed to have items with that caster level. This price is made with the assumption that any spell with a duration less than 1 round/level e.g. instantaneous also gets its price multiplied by four, which would make sense IMO).



*blink* I was thinking 10*200*1800 *10[for being epic]=36,000,000, for trumpeting as a standard action. I totally agree the caster level is just silly; it does make for an apocalyptically powerful item, though. I was also tempted to make it a bard-only item for 30% off   

Still a lot of work to do on my character and cohort.
How much money does a level 87 cohort has ?!


----------



## Sage (Sep 5, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> My main dilemma are the spellcasting feats. They eat up a lot of resources, and I THINK the DCs I can pull off just won't be worth the bother (DC 44 to 66 or so). I'm going to rethink his spells a bit, putting in a little more utility and minion-handling.




well, it all comes down to what the focus of your character is.
I suggest getting some minion-summoning items (rod of the wyrm or something like that).



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Ehm, see, this is where I cheated. The true resurrection bit isn't a real special ability, it's a non-epic one. At any rate, I think it's worth more than 50,000.



Actually, the ressurection thing is free, it's the special purpose that costs 50.000 gp  



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Note that I interpert the spell as adding +5 to my non-epic BAB, not increase my BAB to +100 (including the +40 epic bonus).




Aww... I liked the +85 to BAB idea   



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> *blink* I was thinking 10*200*1800 *10[for being epic]=36,000,000, for trumpeting as a standard action. I totally agree the caster level is just silly; it does make for an apocalyptically powerful item, though.



*blink* my mistake... I guess I overlooked that row in the magic item creation chart.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I was also tempted to make it a bard-only item for 30% off



lol, I pondered doing this to all my items and due to my Use Magic Device ranks it would't matter if it could only be used by a deranged lillend hermaphodite who though he/she was a cow.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Still a lot of work to do on my character and cohort.
> How much money does a level 87 cohort has ?!




I'd say 5,000,000 tops or something like that. Of course you could beef him up with your own gold.


----------



## Sage (Sep 5, 2005)

*Flaws for commoners*

This is from a dragon magazine and I couldn't help repeating a few of them.
Kudos goes yo Tony Mosley for the article.

*CHICKEN INFESTED*
You've got chickens.
*Effect: Whenever you draw a weapon or pull an item out of a container, you have a 50% chance of drawing a live chicken instead. No, we don't know where the chickens come from; it's your character.

DELICIOUS
Someone cast divine flavor on you.
Effect: All monsters attack you if able, regardless og their attitude toward the rest of your party. In addition, you go down smooth. When subjected to a swallow whole special attack, you are treated as two size categories smaller than you actually are.

DIRT FARMER
You farm. Now get back to work, serf!
Effect: You must spend 18 hours every day farming for your liege. If you fail to spend 18 hours every day farming, your liege has you killed.

NAGGING COUGH
You are sick.
Effect: You begin play afflicted with mummy rot. You've made no successful Fort saves to kick the disease.

PESANT HAT
You have a pesant hat.
Effect: You suffer a -15 penalty on all Diplomacy checks. Other characters in your party can cast command on you once per day, with no save allowed.
Special: If you remove the hat, crows peck at your exposed brains, killing you.

PIG POND
You have a pig. Good for you.
Effect: You must at all times carry a pig that weighs an amount equal to your maximum load. The pig refuses to walk on its own. If your Strength score increases, the weight of the pig increases to match your new maximum load. If your Strength score decreases... get a cart.
Special: If more than a few inches ever separates you and the pig, the pig transforms inot Orcus and skins you (which probably kills you).

UNIMPORTANT NPC
Nobody cares about you.
Effect: You have no name. You are never included when the group divides its treasure. You are never part of the initiative order (and thus you always go last... if your DM even lets you go at all).

WERESHEEP
Theresheep!
Effect: You are afflicted with lycanthropy. Not such a flaw, right? Your hybrid and animal forms are of a harmless sheep. When in hybrid or animal form you suffer the effects of the Delicious flaw.*


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## Yair (Sep 5, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> well, it all comes down to what the focus of your character is.
> I suggest getting some minion-summoning items (rod of the wyrm or something like that).



True, true. Will think about this some more.



> Actually, the ressurection thing is free, it's the special purpose that costs 50.000 gp



Cool. 


> Aww... I liked the +85 to BAB idea



Yeah, I liked it too, but I gave up on the idea because... what was it?.... oh, yes: *it was insanely powerful*  



> lol, I pondered doing this to all my items and due to my Use Magic Device ranks it would't matter if it could only be used by a *deranged lillend hermaphodite who though he/she was a cow.*



Now there's an image...   
Lol, I support going for it with one item, but only if the item's fluff actually makes it reasonable that it's limited to DLHwTH/SWaC 



> I'd say 5,000,000 tops or something like that. Of course you could beef him up with your own gold.



I've been going through the NPC and PC gear charts, trying to come up with a reasonable answer. My conclusion is that it's such a mess that there is none. 
And I have no idea how anyone came up with the 277,000,000 gp value. I got ~338,000,000 gp by fitting a 3rd degree polynomial (near level 40, the dominant term becomes x ^4 ! but 3rd degree is still a very good fit), and I can make this number dance whichever way I want by fiddling with the formulas. Just about any number can be justified. It's rediculous.

I'll go with your 5,000,000 then. It's a bit weak, actually - topped by a "mere" level 32 PC - but I'll manage.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> This is from a dragon magazine and I couldn't help repeating a few of them.
> Kudos goes yo Tony Mosley for the article.
> 
> *CHICKEN INFESTED*
> ...



*

I remember this article.  It would be humorous if he made a character with some of these flaws.  I have a new one too:

Red Shirt
You have such a small plot point that you are destined to die before the opening credits and are marked with a red shirt.
Effect: If there is a pit, you fall in it and die.  If there is a trapped door, you panick and run through the door and trigger the trap, killing you.  Whenever combat starts, you are the first to be attacked and you automatically take a maximized critical hit, if you survive the damage, you must make a saving throw against the damage or die.  When you die, you roll a percentile die, if it is your CON score or lower you are true ressurected only to die again, but still no one knows your name.*


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## Yair (Sep 6, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I remember this article.  It would be humorous if he made a character with some of these flaws.



Well, the Unimportant NPC is just right, and Peasant Hat is appropriate (sort of). It would be fun taking them, but I have no idea what a "flaw" means...


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## Sage (Sep 6, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Lol, I support going for it with one item, but only if the item's fluff actually makes it reasonable that it's limited to DLHwTH/SWaC



I think I'll just let it pass.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Well, the Unimportant NPC is just right, and Peasant Hat is appropriate (sort of). It would be fun taking them, but I have no idea what a "flaw" means...



You take a flaw, you get an extra feat at character creation.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> 'll go with your 5,000,000 then. It's a bit weak, actually - topped by a "mere" level 32 PC - but I'll manage.



Actually, this was assuming he's a commoner, if he's got class levels it's probably more. Have you looked at the NPC weath charts?
I tried to calculate the equempient value of a level 87 NPC and got a mere 7,070,000 gp maybe you should use that?

I like the red shirt


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## Yair (Sep 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> You take a flaw, you get an extra feat at character creation.



Neat.



> Actually, this was assuming he's a commoner, if he's got class levels it's probably more. Have you looked at the NPC weath charts?
> I tried to calculate the equempient value of a level 87 NPC and got a mere 7,070,000 gp maybe you should use that?



How did you get that? As near I can tell, the NPC Gear table is EXPONENTIAL - at least I got a perfect match with an exponential fit. This leads to a rediculous gear worth for a level 87 NPC.
Of course, it only gets to level 20. 
The PC Gear table is just a mess, and only goes to level 40, making it very difficult to project to higher levels. Even then, I have no idea how to determine NPC Gear from it.
I even tried using the Treasure-by-EL guidelines, but this too is a mess and goes only to 20. Arrrg.


----------



## Sage (Sep 6, 2005)

Ok, pulling out calculator:

Expentntial Reg:
money = 31674*1.1^level
87th level = 126,000,000 gp roughly

Power reg:
money = 141* level^2.4
87th level = 6,400,000 gp roughly

I don't think it's exponential. True the exponential regression comes closer, but I only have 10 points of reference.
You'll note that the last calculation comes kinda close to my previous calculation (which was based on a more or less logical continuation of the NPC gear value talbe at the end og the ELH).

Including all 30 points form both list will give a disjointet curve at around 20th level and less adequate regression but here it is:

exponential reg (again closer):
money = 1647 * level^1,24
87th level = 224,616,000,000 gp roughly

Power reg:
money = 200*level^2.2
87th level = 3,700,000 gp roughly

I think we can safely assume that it's _not_ an exponential regression   

I think DM-Rocco should decide how much money your cohor should have after reading this extensive report on the subject


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## Yair (Sep 6, 2005)

*Level 87 Commoner*

Kolshadai's personal servant is an easily-forgettable old man, wearing a peasant's hat and learning against a heavy, curled, long shaft of wood. Those that will notice him may note his worn but quality attire, a sturdy cloak, and even some jewelry (a ring, periapt, and bracers); none seem magical. They might even notice the “walking stick” is a heavy combat scythe's shaft. In combat, a brilliant energy blade springs from it. He is surprisingly agile and healthy, especially for his age. 
But the servant is often dismissed and ignored, even in the midst of battle. Usually, no one even notices or remembers he is around - including the players.
His paces are light and almost inaudible [Move Silently 107, usually], and he is unnoticed and effectively invisible [Concealment 50%].

*Almonee, the Forgotten CR86*
Male Old Human Commoner 20/Shadowdancer 9/Void Incarnate 10/Expert 20/Aristocrat 20/Warrior 8
NG Medium Humanoid (Human)
_Uses SRD, including Epic section, the Void Incarnate PrC from WotC's site, and Flaws from Dragon._
*Senses* darkvision 60 feet; Listen +8, Spot +8
*Languages* Common
---
*AC* 35, touch 27, flat-footed 23; *Concealment* 50% 
*Hp* 1365 hp (87 HD); *DR* 15/-
*Immunne* mind-affecting and information gathering divinations, force effects, impeded movement
*Fort* +74 ,*Ref* +74, *Will* +70
---
*Init* always last; Spd 30 ft
*Melee* Scythe +58/+53 (2d4+1 19-20/x4) [+2 (+2d6+2) vs. plants]
*Base Atk* +50 [10+40 epic]; *GRP* +51
*Atk Options *power attack
*Combat Gear*
_ +4 Plant Bane Keen Scythe of Brilliant Energy
---
*Abilities* Str 13, Dex 35, Con 35, Int 17, Wis 26, Cha 15
*SQ* fast healing 9
*Flaws* Unimportant NPC, Peasant Hat 
*Feats*  Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Damage Reduction x 5, Dexterous Will, Dodge, Epic Dodge, Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Epic Skill Focus (Profession: farmer), Epic Weapon Focus (scythe),  Fast Healing x 3, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Martial Weapon Proficiency (scythe), Power Attack, Proficiency (scythe), Mobility, Self Concealment x 5, Skill Focus (Profession: farmer)
*Skills* Bluff +26, Diplomacy -13, Escape Artist +36, Heal +70, Hide +102, Knowledge (local) +9, Move Silently +102, Perform (dance) +7, Profession (farmer) +145,  Ride +17, Swim +6, Tumble +94
---
*Possessions* (4,589,718 gp)
_Tome of X +5 have all been read (0 gp)
_Boots of Dexterity +10 (1,000,000 gp), +30 Move Silently (135,000 gp)
_Belt of Constitution +10 (1,000,000 gp)
_Periapt of Wisdom +10 (1,000,000 gp)
_Cloak of Resistance +10 (1,000,000 gp)
_Scythe (318 gp) of Farming (+30 to skill, 135,000 gp) +4 Plant Bane (+1) Brilliant Energy (+4) Keen (+1) (200,000 gp) (in total 335,318 gp). This item is cursed: the character wielding it may not cast any spells, and must add at least one level as a Commoner if he doesn't already have one. The weapon's blade is usually withdrawn, leaving only the shaft; the energy blade manifests on command.
_Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000 gp)
_Ring of Protection +5 (50,000 gp)
_Sustaining Spoon (5,400 gp)

*Weapon and Armor Proficiencies*: He is proficient with all martial and simple weapons, and with all shields (but not tower shields). In addition, he is proficient with hand crossbows.
*Peasant Hat*: In addition to a -15 penalty to Diplomacy, other PCs in the party can command him once per day (no save). He never removes the hat.
*Unimportant NPC*: He has no name (Almonee is “someone” in the Common tongue), is never included in the division of treasure, and always goes last (if someone remembers to include him at all).
*Hide in Plain Sight* (Su): As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind, even while being observed.
*Improved Evasion* (Ex): If exposed to any effect that normally allows him to attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage, he takes no damage with a successful saving throw, and half on a failed save.
*Darkvision* (Su): A shadowdancer can see in the dark as though under the effect of a darkvision spell.
*Improved Uncanny Dodge* (Ex): A shadowdancer retains his Dexterity bonus to AC when flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. He cannot be flanked, except by a rouge of at least level 13.
*Shadow Illusion* (Sp): Once per day, a shadowdancer may cast silent image (CL 9).
*Summon Shadow* (Su): As a shadowdancer he may summon a shadow, except it's alignment is NG and it cannot spawn, and is advanced by +4 HD. If it is destroyed, he loses 1800 XP (Fort DC 15 half). Almnonee does not currently have a shadow.
*Shadow Jump* (Su): As a shadowdancer he can jump up to 80 feet between shadows  as if by dimension door (10 feet minimum).
*Defensive Roll *(Ex): Once per day, when he would be reduced to 0 hp or less from a blow, Reflex DC=damage he takes half damage.
*Slippery Mind* (Ex): If affected by an enhancement and fails his saving throw, 1 round later she can retry it.
*Blank Aura* (Ex): He and his equipment radiate no aura of any kind. As a standard action, he can extend this to two more willing creatures within 30 feet for 24 hours.
*Void Presence* (Ex): Opponents unconsciously ignore him, and are always flat-footed, except for a round if he attacks them (mind-affecting). Gather Information on him suffers a -30 penalty.
*Improved Mettle of Fortitude* (Ex): If exposed to any effect that allows a Fortitude save for a partial or half effect, he suffers no effect with a successful saving throw, and only partial or half effect on a failed save.
*Blank Mind *(Ex): He is protected by mind blank at all times. He can extend this to one creature within 30 feet for 24 hours, as a standard action.
*Improved Mettle of Will* (Ex): If exposed to any effect that allows a Will save for a partial or half effect, he suffers no effect with a successful saving throw, and only partial partial or half effect on a failed save.
*Null Strike* (Ex): Once per day, he may declare any melee or ranged attack he makes to be a touch attack.
*Empty Form* (Ex): He has a permanent freedom of movement effect on him at all times. He is immune to force effects.

He may use his Heal to quicken recovery (2-3 hp per level in one hour) up to six characters. He may Hide and Move Silently up to his Speed at a -5 penalty. He can make 77 gp per week plying his trade as a farmer, implying he does the work of 770 farmers. Using Tumble he may ignore any falling damage, and gains +22 to AC in total defense, or +8 when fighting defensively.
As a character, he is fairly useless: with weak melee ability, no ranged combat or spellcasting ability, and virtually no relevant skills. But he should be a survivor, if only becuase no one will bother to target him, and he is an _excellent_ farmer.


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## Yair (Sep 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> You'll note that the last calculation comes kinda close to my previous calculation (which was based on a more or less logical continuation of the NPC gear value talbe at the end og the ELH).



Aha, well that's a table I don't have. (I only work with the SRD.)



> I think we can savely assume that it's _not_ an exponential regression



Sigh, and I was hoping for a loan for poor Kolshadai...   



> I think DM-Rocco should decide how much money your cohor should have after reading this extendive report on the subject



I agree!


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## Sage (Sep 6, 2005)

lol
-Epic skill focus (porfession farmer]
-plant bane scythe

he's great   

I've checked his item prices, they're all fine. 
I was a little unsure about the special abilities of the scythe adding to +6 but I couldn't find any rules stating it couldn't be none with non-epic rules.

Sure is one super farmer!


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## Yair (Sep 6, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> -plant bane scythe



You should see him great-cleaving wheat stalks with it, it's slaughter


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 7, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Ok, pulling out calculator:
> 
> Expentntial Reg:
> money = 31674*1.1^level
> ...




Must stop *holds head from exploding*, stop the math, can't take much more.   

All kidding aside, I think, as a gut reaction, your cohort should get gold equal to a PC of 87th level.  I didn't know that NPCs get less and as a cohort, you commoner levels should be treated as PC levels.  So, figure out how much gold an 87th level character gets and let me know.  Then I may adjust it slightly.  

That being said, I hang my head for not taking college level math


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 7, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Kolshadai's personal servant is an easily-forgettable old man, wearing a peasant's hat and learning against a heavy, curled, long shaft of wood. Those that will notice him may note his worn but quality attire, a sturdy cloak, and even some jewelry (a ring, periapt, and bracers); none seem magical. They might even notice the “walking stick” is a heavy combat scythe's shaft. In combat, a brilliant energy blade springs from it. He is surprisingly agile and healthy, especially for his age.
> But the servant is often dismissed and ignored, even in the midst of battle. Usually, no one even notices or remembers he is around - including the players.
> His paces are light and almost inaudible [Move Silently 107, usually], and he is unnoticed and effectively invisible [Concealment 50%].
> 
> ...




Dare I ask what this is? 
_Sustaining Spoon (5,400 gp)

And I was half expecting to see Perform (blank Stare) 90 ranks, skill focus perform (blank Stare), epic skill focus perform (blank Stare)         rofl

How much gold would that be, for perform (blank stare) over 100?

Imagine the divine beings who would flock to you just to see you give them a dumb blank stare.


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## Yair (Sep 7, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Dare I ask what this is?
> _Sustaining Spoon (5,400 gp)





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Sustaining Spoon
> 
> This unremarkable eating utensil is typically fashioned from horn. If the spoon is placed in an empty container the vessel fills with a thick, pasty gruel. Although this substance has a flavor similar to that of warm, wet cardboard, it is highly nourishing and contains everything necessary to sustain any herbivorous, omnivorous, or carnivorous creature. The spoon can produce sufficient gruel each day to feed up to four humans.
> 
> Faint conjuration; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item, create food and water; Price 5,400 gp.



I call it "Peasant's Stew".


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## Yair (Sep 7, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> All kidding aside, I think, as a gut reaction, your cohort should get gold equal to a PC of 87th level.  I didn't know that NPCs get less and as a cohort, you commoner levels should be treated as PC levels.  So, figure out how much gold an 87th level character gets and let me know.  Then I may adjust it slightly.



No, NPCs always get less than PCs of equal rank. Consider it from the take-their-loot angle: if they had PC gear, then after defeating 4 of them the PCs would double their gear value (for a 4-member party), which is waay to much treasure. Still, NPCs get a bit more than treasure-by-EL for some reason. At any rate, they do have less than PCs.
I actually managed fairly well under 5,000,000. I think it would be best to increase it to around 7,000,000 as Sage recommends, he's done the math.


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## Yair (Sep 7, 2005)

I've been trying to bring together a coherent picture of the power levels involved. Here are the characters we've got, as I understand:
Andronicus the Wizard [Moleculo]: 2250 hp; AC 39; Attack +51; Saves 79, 59, 55; DC 71 [items changed to +30 to Abilities]
Unbreakable the Fighter [DM-Rocco]: 3087 hp; AC 108 to 137; Attack +139; Saves 100, 99, 90; damage/round 506 to 800
Kolshadai the Bard [Yair]: 983 hp; AC 86; Attack +76; Saves 98, 110, 96; damage/round 309
Sonasti the Rouge[Sage]: 1700 hp; AC 105; Attack +97; Saves 78, 124, 77; damage/round 3328 +40 negative levels
(The other characters do not have guideline-based equipment so I can't really evaluate them.)

What we can see is that, first of all, Sage puts us all to shame. He attacks with 4 weapons, does horrid sneak attack damage and 40 levels to boot. Essentially, anything he can regularly hit and is not immune to sneak attack and energy drain will be eliminated in one round from 30 feet away. And he practically can't be hurt, or even noticed. You've got one scary character there, Sage.

More to the point, this is starting to set a standard of capabilities I think. I suggest the following Value Guidelines:
*hp should around 3000 hp for front-line combatants, 1000 to 2000 for secondary combatants and other characters.
*AC must be 60 to have any chance of being useful against even non-combatants. AC 100 to 110 is needed to function in combat, with 150 or so needed for a decent chance to evade front-line combatants. 
*Attack bonus of +100 or so is needed for secondary combatants, and frontliners can reach +140 or so.
*Spell DCs reach 71 or so; almost anyone saves automatically. 
*Saves are often set too high; +71 or so should suffice. (Epic spells may break this.)
*A reasonable (optimal) damage output will be around 1000 hp/round, around 3000 is deadly and below 500 is weak.

That should be useful for fine-tuning our characters.


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## Ozmar (Sep 7, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> No, NPCs always get less than PCs of equal rank. Consider it from the take-their-loot angle: if they had PC gear, then after defeating 4 of them the PCs would double their gear value (for a 4-member party), which is waay to much treasure. Still, NPCs get a bit more than treasure-by-EL for some reason.




Prob b/c some monsters (or even quite a few of them) have low or no treasure. So it helps to balance it out if the PCs face a various mix of opponents.

Ozmar the Student of Encounter Theory


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## Yair (Sep 7, 2005)

I've been workin on my epic spell grimoire. It's... so arbitrary. Especially given the fact that Kolshadai can round up just about any number of spellcasters for gigantic rituals. For example...

*Complete Spell Reflection*
This powerful ritual requires 1000 assistants to the primary caster, each casting a single level 2 spell. If cast successfully, any spell cast on the recipient is automatically reflected back unto the original caster. This includes area spells.
If the recipient falls under a dispelling spell effect, he resists the effect with a check of 1d20+primary caster's level+200 [1d20+269 in Kolshadai's case].
DC 125, Price 1,125,000.
Design: Reflect 27, +2 range touch, +180 for level 10 spells, +20 for area spells, +400 for +200 to resist dispelling, x5 permanent, -20 for 10 minutes casting time, -3000 for 1000 level 2 spells. [Note the seed states all non-epic spells are reflected, and only epic spells need a caster level check; my version is slightly less powerful.]

Kolshadai can definitely round up 1000 acolytes to cast a 2nd level spell for him. Heck, he can do it on a daily basis.

We need to set guidelines for the application of mitigating factors, I think.


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## Sage (Sep 7, 2005)

Nice summarization Yair

I guess I don't have to do much fine-tuning   
btw. the negative levels are suceptible to SR and have a caster level of 20, so practically useless.

You should give your cohort much more equipment, so as to make him less useless.
I'll try to calculate how much a 87th level PC has *sigh*


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## Verequus (Sep 7, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I've been workin on my epic spell grimoire. It's... so arbitrary. Especially given the fact that Kolshadai can round up just about any number of spellcasters for gigantic rituals. ...
> Kolshadai can definitely round up 1000 acolytes to cast a 2nd level spell for him. Heck, he can do it on a daily basis.
> 
> We need to set guidelines for the application of mitigating factors, I think.




The Epic Spell seed is broken - it is that simple. I haven't put that into true numbers, but even a lowly 21st level caster can create following spell:

-Get enough damage to kill all god in existance and steal their free divinity
-Include a true resurrection because of the thrird point
-Mitigate this through backlash damage to a DC of 5 or something like that

After all, it doesn't matter, if you die because of 500d6 damage or of 100,000d6 damage. I'm astonished, that this kind of spell is cast every day.


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## Sage (Sep 7, 2005)

ok, I've run some math and discovored that it's _not_ an exponential increase (y = b*a^x) and _not_ a potens increase (y = b*x^a). Anyway, my feeling from the numbers is that your cohort should have about 150,000,000 gp (175 would be closer but he's probably used some of it on his extraplanar farm and stuff like that).


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## Sage (Sep 7, 2005)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> The Epic Spell seed is broken - it is that simple. I haven't put that into true numbers, but even a lowly 21st level caster can create following spell:
> 
> -Get enough damage to kill all god in existance and steal their free divinity
> -Include a true resurrection because of the thrird point
> ...




good point... however only divine casters will be overpowered in that fashion.
As a thought; these spells have to be developed and it kinda sucks if (during testing) the backlash works but the ressurection part doesn't. I don't think you should be allowed to have spells that kill yourself, or a rule stating: 

_Backlash can never be higher than damage or, if the spell does not deal damage, have more backlash damage dice than your HD._​
Of course this doesn't really solve the problem, but it probably helps. And it would solve the problem if you remove the backlash = damage option and only have the HD as restriction.


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## Verequus (Sep 7, 2005)

I think, that you don't need necessarily the Life seed - just get a Wand of True Ressurection and adjust the spell, that it simulates an UMD check, which it won't fail. So every caster, who can afford such a magic item can do this. But regarding your limiting suggestion: I think, that it makes attack spells with the Epic system improbable, because the DCs are getting too high. I would use UK's magic system, but he hasn't it published yet.


----------



## Sage (Sep 7, 2005)

RuleMaster said:
			
		

> I think, that it makes attack spells with the Epic system improbable, because the DCs are getting too high. I would use UK's magic system, but he hasn't it published yet.



How so? there's no limit to the amount of damage you can deal, only a limit to the allowed backlash, and not many mages would go above that limit anyway.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 7, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> No, NPCs always get less than PCs of equal rank. Consider it from the take-their-loot angle: if they had PC gear, then after defeating 4 of them the PCs would double their gear value (for a 4-member party), which is waay to much treasure. Still, NPCs get a bit more than treasure-by-EL for some reason. At any rate, they do have less than PCs.
> I actually managed fairly well under 5,000,000. I think it would be best to increase it to around 7,000,000 as Sage recommends, he's done the math.




Okay, I seem to remember that cohorts get the same gear as a PC, but as I am at work, I can't verify.

If the math works out then do 7,000,000 +3,000,000.  The 3,000,000 must be spent on wacky or cursed items for humor value only


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 7, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I've been trying to bring together a coherent picture of the power levels involved. Here are the characters we've got, as I understand:
> Andronicus the Wizard [Moleculo]: 2250 hp; AC 39; Attack +51; Saves 79, 59, 55; DC 71 [items changed to +30 to Abilities]
> Unbreakable the Fighter [DM-Rocco]: 3087 hp; AC 108 to 137; Attack +139; Saves 100, 99, 90; damage/round 506 to 800
> Kolshadai the Bard [Yair]: 983 hp; AC 86; Attack +76; Saves 98, 110, 96; damage/round 309
> ...




I'd take Sage in four rounds   

I can't be level drained or sneak attacked, I just have to wait and hold my action until he tries to hit me and strike him when he tries to hit me  

Anyway, he does do a bit of damage, mine is less, but Unbreakable is designed for defense and hitting all opponents withing a 15' radius to weaken them over time.  Thanks for crunching some numbers though, it helps put us where we need to be.

Perhaps we need to restrict items that offer saving throw bonuses, otherwise, why bother?

Note to self, check how much damage you do in one round, don't want to look too weak.


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## Verequus (Sep 7, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> How so? there's no limit to the amount of damage you can deal, only a limit to the allowed backlash, and not many mages would go above that limit anyway.




The problem are the DCs to develop an high damage dealing spell. "For each additional 1d6 points of damage dealt, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2." The base DC is 19. For a 100th-level a DC of 120 is not much of an hindrance, but you don't get 100d6 of damage, but only 60d6. And you don't have even increased the area.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 7, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I've been workin on my epic spell grimoire. It's... so arbitrary. Especially given the fact that Kolshadai can round up just about any number of spellcasters for gigantic rituals. For example...
> 
> *Complete Spell Reflection*
> This powerful ritual requires 1000 assistants to the primary caster, each casting a single level 2 spell. If cast successfully, any spell cast on the recipient is automatically reflected back unto the original caster. This includes area spells.
> ...




Well, I suggest that you and Sage, who understand the details of epic spell construction better than I, come to a consensus on what should and should not be allowed.  Perhaps adding expensive spell components or XP may limit the number of times you may cast it.  Would it be okay if I had you too come together on this point and figure out what epic spells should and should not be allowed and how to balance them?


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 7, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> ok, I've run some math and discovored that it's _not_ an exponential increase (y = b*a^x) and _not_ a potens increase (y = b*x^a). Anyway, my feeling from the numbers is that your cohort should have about 150,000,000 gp (175 would be closer but he's probably used some of it on his extraplanar farm and stuff like that).




I think it would be safe to say that your commoner would have donated 25,000,000 to farm aid or live aid and/or Katrina aid   

Give him 150,000,000 gp.  To keep him from being anything truely effective, but still mildly playable, give him a few items that have random chances of exploding or summoning Orcus or other hurmorous things.  I don't care if he can actually function in the game, you can make him somewhat playable, I'll through in some epic plant monsters just for him) but remember, we are trying to follow the guidelines that no one has the leadership feat because it unbalances the party as a whole.  However, we have all agreed that your character has a lot of flavor and we like him and you have the feat because of a class requirement, so I want you to make him somewhat playable for that one moment when he may shine where the others can't


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## Sage (Sep 7, 2005)

I see your point RuleMaster.

Ozmars mage could easily do 115d6 damage without backlash but that's only and average of 402, which, according to Yair, is weak, AND you get to save for half.

I'm ready to work out a few restrictions with Yair (and possibly Ozmar). 
An obvious one being that Koladishai might have 1000 4th level spellcasters as followers put probably not in the same plane and it would require a tremendous effort to get them all to stop what they were doing and convene for some reason.
However, as noted above, damage-dealing spells are fairly weak, but I guess that's not too bad since the strength of spells is usually in their versality and AoE.


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## Yair (Sep 7, 2005)

*A LONG post. I warned you.*



			
				RuleMaster said:
			
		

> The Epic Spell seed is broken - it is that simple. I haven't put that into true numbers, but even a lowly
> 
> 21st level caster can create following spell:
> 
> ...



I'm going to answer, and it's going to be long. These are more rambling thoughts than a straight ansewr, so just read the highlights if you want to skim it.

Well, while the system is broken it isn't really *that* broken, and it's broken both in the uber-spell and the pathetic-effect direction.
Leaving aside mitigating factors, there is simply no way to do a whole lot of damage. Let's assume Spellcraft +210, for example. The best you can do, keeping in mind a +100 saving throw, is 

*Sonic Bolt*
You emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 35d6 (122 hp) sonic energy damage, half on a successful save (DC 76+Cha=110).
DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gp
Design: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x66 for +66 to save DC, +2x25 for +25d6.

or if you figure the target will make his saving throw anyways and hope he doesn't have improved evasion:

*Loud Sonic Bolt*
You emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 101d6 (353 hp) sonic energy damage, half (176 hp) on a successful save (DC 10+Cha=44).
DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gp
Design: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x91 for +91d6.

And then there are energy immunities. And SR. And spell reflection...

That's not a whole lot of damage, even in the rare case when it does work. Now let's try with the maximum allowed backlash:

*Sonic Bolt*
You emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 135d6 (472 hp) sonic energy damage, half on a successful save (DC 76+Cha=110). The caster takes 200d6 (700 hp) in damage.
DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gp
Design: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x66 for +66 to save DC, +2x125 for +125d6, -200 for 200d6 backlash.

*Loud Sonic Bolt*
You emit a bolt of sonic energy, 5 feet wide and 300 long. Anyone caought in it suffers 201d6 (703 hp) sonic energy damage, half (351 hp) on a successful save (DC 10+Cha=44). The caster takes 200d6 (700 hp) in damage.
DC 221, Price 1,989,000 gp
Design: Energy 19, +20 1-action, +2x191 for +191d6, -200 for 200d6 baclash.

The damage is still not great, and in fact the backlash does more damage to you then the spell probably will do to your enemy. 
When applied to damaging spells backlash may actually be too weak. It is certainly not broken.

*Direct damage spells aren't broken as of themselves, buffing and mitigation are the big problems.*
Brokeness in epic spells arises not from damaging spells, or even attack spells. These can, generally, be resisted by all kinds of means and as they need to be cast on the fly will be relatively weak. It is buffing spells that are the problem.
Even non-mitigated buffing spells may have some problems. But the real brokeness comes with mitigating factors.

For a spell with a long duration, backlash isn't mitigating anything. Even one feat of Fast Healing will cure the 700 hp damage in but 23 minutes, it's sacrificing nothing at all to include it. I suggest limiting this factor to spells that are meant to be cast in the heat of combat (not before it).

Up to 20,000 XP can be burned for an extra -200 mitigating factor. We need 100,000 XP to reach the next level, so losing 20,000 is felt. I'm not sure it's worth +200 to the spellcraft DC, but I'm willing to consider such a mitigating factor in just about any spell. XP are a painful resource to expend.

Extending the casting time can net you a -220 mitigating factor, and that's a huge problem. Permanent spells now effectively have +220 to their DC, eating up 44 of the spell's positive modifiers (before the x5 due to permanent duration kicks in). 

Day-long spells can likewise be cast in 10 minutes, netting +20 (or is it +19?! the examples and table-text don't match) to the possible DC. None of this comes at any real cost.
I suggest making the increased casting time mitigating factor available only to spells without lasting effects. You can use it to Contact a god, Forsee the future, or Transport a city to another plane - but not to Armor your buddies, or Animate a creature to fight for you, or so on. (Evil spells should be able to circumvent this limit; I won't stop anyone from conjuring Cthulhu - my PC will. Spells with a huge area of effect, such as weather spells, may also be acceptable.)

Changing to Personal target is just a measly -2 mitigating factor, this won't break anything.
Decreased damage dice drops -5 per die type, I likewise thing it won't break anything.

The true offenders are Rituals. What's so wrong about them is that they are not capped, you could brandish a -3000 mitigating factor with ease (e.g. above). Furthermore, it again bears no real cost for spells with a long duration as you cast it at your home base with the aid of your acolytes/apprentices/minions so it isn't a problem.
I suggest limiting this factor to -200 for starters, in-line with the other mitigating factors.
In addition, it should be limited to spells with no lasting effects.

Of course, all these guidelines need to be taken with a grain of salt. I see no problem with a long ritual of Enslavement, for example - it's just fitting. A long ritual for buffing your AC or summong Nilberung, however, is a no-no.

So what does this net us? Let's reuse the two spells: we can only add -200 for burning 20,000 XP, adding yet more +100d6. That will raise the damage to 235d6 (822/411 hp) or 301d6 (1053/526 hp). STILL not broken, at the cost of 1/5 of your next level!
We see that combat spells can enjoy xp and backlash mitigating factors, for up to a -400 modifier.
A long-duration buffing spell will be able to mitigate its DC with XP and personal range, for a -202 mitigating factor. PERHPAS you can squize in a Ritual factor for minute-duration spells, as it's your team-mates that will need to participate and expand spell slots; so the mitigation is rather similar to the attack spell, -402 at most. 
Truly powerful spells would only be appropriate ones. For example, Enslavement (turning a helpless target within touch range to your thrall) may have casting time, ritual, and xp, for a total of a -620 mitigating factor.

*If used when appropriate, and not just when desired, the mitigating factors can kept to standardized amounts*.

Now the problem becomes: what can you do with this +400 or +200 you've got? Does it make the effect broken?
This very much depends on the seed and spell, of course.

Attack spells can benefit from up to a -400 factor, but a -200 (backlash) is more likely except for desperate spells. 

Converting it all to a saving throw results in save DC=110+Cha=144; the conclusion is that a large part MUST be devoted to increasing the DC if the spell is to be effective. This will significantly lower the power of attack spells that are not DC-based anyways.

Compare this with the Summon seed, for example. Summoning spells have an advantage in that they don't need to increase the save DC. I can see a quick Summon spell with ritual and xp mitigating factors, for a -400. My example caster can whip up a CR ~300 creature with such a spell, now THAT is broken. 

Generally speaking, a lot of seeds CAN be used to devastating effect even under my stricter allowance of mitigating factors. 

Afflict can produce a -300 penalty or so, Armor can grant about +300 to AC, Slay can drain 380 negative levels (but mind the DC and immunities!), Dispel can rise up to 1d20+600 or so (against 11+caster level), Ward can block all spells at +400 or so to caster level (much worse than the possible Dispel!), Transport can teleport about 16,000 pounds, Transform can polymporph other to about 300 HD, Summon can conjure a CR ~300 creature, Reflect epic spells at +200 to resist dispel (very poor) or about 150 melee or ranged attacks, Life can raise someone dead for almost 6,000 years, Heal can restore lost levels within about 6 years, Fortify can almost reach a +300 enhancement bonus to an ability score/saving throw/save resistance/natural armor, Forsee about 17 hours into the future, Energy damage of about 300d6 (1050 hp before saves, SR, and immunities).

*With mitigating factors, many epic spell seeds can produce overly-powerful effects for the caster's CR*
But how are things without mitigating factors? With just +210 to play with, we have...

Afflict can produce a -100 penalty, Animate Dead about 200 HD of undead, Armor provides about +100 armor bonus, Banish about 340 HD of outsiders, Destroy deals about 100d6 (350 hp) of damage (with low save for half), Dispel at 1d20+180 or so, Energy to deal ~100d6 (350 hp, with low save for half), Forsee 6 hours into the future, Fortify for about +100 bonus, Heal to restore drained levels within the last 2 years, Life to raise those dead for about 2000 years, Reflect epic spells at caster level, Slay to grant about 100 negative levels (with weak save for half), Summon a creature of CR 90 or so, Transform to a creature of about 100 HD, Transport about 5500 pounds, Ward with +88 to resist dispelling.

*Without mitigation, most epic capabilities are reasonable or weak, although some (mainly buffs) are still overly powerful.*

The conclusion from all this long discussion is hence simple, and could have been made in advance: epic spells should be constructed to fit with the PC's power level, not to exploit mitigating factors. If mitigating factors are used sparingly, only to augment effects that are overly weak (such as the Energy or Destroy seeds), then most spells will not be broken. The 
remaining problematic spells should be handled with care; I truly don't know how to set limits for buffing.

*Mitigation should usually NOT be used. Its use should be limited to buffing otherwise weak spells. A few effects should not be pursued to their full potential, and should be reigned in by reason (e.g. Armor, Fortify).*

A recurring problem is epic dispelling and the problems it poses. I think it can be resolved as follows:

*The Ward seed is interperted as requiring a simple, unmodified, caster level check when opposed by the Dispel seed. This cannot be modified by any factor. A sufficiently enhanced greater dispel magic may also be able to overcome the ward, in this case the opponent's dispel check is limited by the (non-epic) spell.
The Dispel is interperted as adding +1 to the dispel limit per +1 to the DC for all spells except Ward epic spells.*

With these interpertations, and the understanding that mitigating factors should NOT generally be used with most seeds, I think the epic spell system can work reasonably well. Its main difficulty is in setting a reasonable limit on buffing. No house rules required, just a sense for balance.
It can certainly be made better with some hourse rules. Energy and Destroy need to be significantly stronger, for example. Fortify and Armor probably need to be weaker. And so on. But we need not give in to house rules, nor discard it as unusable. 
We can play by the book - and for the most part, I think it will work just fine.


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## Yair (Sep 7, 2005)

Ah, more money is always good. I'll think on how to use it and come back to you with a revised version, eventually.
Right now I'm working on Kolshadai some more.
Well, right now I'm going to sleep. I'll work on him tomorrow.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 8, 2005)

Okay, here is the begining of the module.  I designed it like a Dungeon adventure.  I am trying to follow their guidelines as I think people make be more comfortable in dealing with that format.  He is everything I have before Act one, or the start of the adventure.  I can change anything, I am open to suggestions, so give advice and let's make it good.

END OF THE COSMOS AS WE KNOW IT...(temp title)

	Since the beginning of time man (and woman, but the last female reference, don’t start getting sexist on me), has sought out the unknown.  He has strived for control of the uncontrollable and attained heights that few can imagine.  Man has pushed himself, first in standing up straight and then in hunting and soon building.  With a keen intellect they have drank knowledge with an unquenchable thirst.  Some have obtained power of epic proportions while others strived further into the divine ranks of immortality and godhood.  Being of such power that they could bend reality to their very whims.  

	Eons passed and the world changed and with that change came an understanding that divinity was a restriction.  While one could achieve the nearly limitless power of the gods, they were restricted in ways that few even knew or understood.  While they gained power in their own circles they never progressed in their mortal professions again.  This lock on their progression was discovered recently by a dwarf who had forsaken his mortal name and is now only known as Unbreakable.

	When he surpassed his mortal peers and attained such a level of power and respect, the Gods banded together and offered him Divinity.  To their dismay, he declined the offer.  He was marked for death by the Gods and by epic skill and a good deal of luck he broke the odds and survived.  Decades went by and as the toll of the war with the Gods went on, he grew in power and strength.  Soon, his might was not measured by epic deeds or divine rankings, but in overwhelming skill and experience that not even the most powerful god could match.  The Gods had mixed reactions to this increasing strength, some of them thought he was a threat and wanted him eliminated while others sought to strike an alliance with him to safe guard themselves from his might and seek protection should the need arise.  One thing was for certain; he could take on most Gods in single combat.  It would take the whole of the pantheon to take him down and none had the power now to organize such an endeavor.

	Unbreakable watched the rise and fall of many would be heroes.  The Gods tried to recruit more and more to the ranks of divinity, but after hearing the tales of Unbreakable and with his aid, he elevated a select few above the ranks of Godhood to seek and gain power the Gods lacked and could never achieve.   It was true that the Gods also had powers that the newly dubbed immortals did not, but many feel the trade off was worth it.

“End of the Cosmos as We Know it…” is a Dungeons and Dragons adventure designed for four 100th level characters.  Characters will gain experience to achieve higher levels by the end of this adventure, however, it is suggested that you give out experience as the characters earn it, as many spells at this level require experience points to cast.  *might add something for none spell caster so they are not left out*.  This is a one shot adventure, designed with no intentions of making a sequel.  If you feel so compelled, you may choose to add to this adventure and propel your characters into a whole new world of play.  In this case, rules from the Immortals Handbook, by CRGreathouse and UpperKrust are suggested reading materials.

Campaign Setting
	The “End of the Cosmos as We Know it…,” 100th level adventure module is mostly designed with no particular world in mind.  However, we do refer to Gods in the Forgotten Realms since that is the most popular high-magic, high-level gaming campaign and we have stats for many of the Gods. If you have your own world that you prefer and would like to substitute in your world instead, please feel free.
	The module was designed with the following source books and we tried to keep things simple by limiting the number of books allowed:

Character creation books
	The Player’s Handbook 3.5
	The Dungeon Master’s Guide 3.5
	The Monster Manual 3.5
	The Epic Player’s Handbook 3.0
Other source books for play
	The Book of Exalted Deeds 3.5
	The Book of Vile Darkness 3.5
	Deities and Demi-Gods
	Faiths and Pantheons 

	Any reference to a monster, or item, or feat, etc., will be referred to by a page number of the appropriate book along with a stat block for monsters and encounters.  We have thrown in a few items and creatures of note from other sources and will list the sources and the relevant information.  Most of the other sources will come from the Immortal Player’s Handbook.

Preparation
To play “End of the Cosmos as We Know it…,” you must have access to the previously mentioned books, although, truth be told, you can do without The Book of Exalted Deeds 3.5 and The Book of Vile Darkness 3.5.  You must also have your players make 100th level characters.  We have provided some pre-generated characters if you wish to use them to save time and a few headaches.  We have found that making the characters themselves is great fun; very time consuming, but great fun.  We strongly suggest that you have your players make their own characters and even dedicate four hours of gaming time into making their own character, although, that may not be enough time.

	In order to create a module that would support 100th level characters, we had to impose some limits during character creation.  The variables are way too high if you just let people go completely nuts.  Even with our limitations you could easily break the rules.  Magic, wizards in particular, have a way of bending the rules to do obscene damage.  At one point we figured that a 100th level wizard could easily do 1,000,000 points of damage in one round if he took the right feats and memorized the correct spells.  It is strongly suggested that you monitor what your spell casters are doing in terms of character creation and what combination of spells they might try.  Make sure you have a serious talk about what is and is not allowed for spell casting.  *perhaps we need to expand the magic restrictions in a separate section*  You can feel free to break our suggestions as you will, but by doing so, you must be prepared to improvise at a moments notice when things go completely and insanely nuts.

Character Creation
Sources allowed are PHB, DMG, MM, and EPHB. Alternative sources are DMGII, MMII, MMIII, BOED, BOVD, 
Deities and Demigods NO DIVINE RANKS, and Faiths and Pantheons NO DIVINE RANKS. Everything from the alternative sources is up for approval by the DM IT IS SUGGESTED NO TEMPLATES ALLOWED, IN PARTICULAR THE PARAGON, MONSTER OF LEGEND OR MAGESTIER.
You should not allow races other than the standard - By not allowing level adjusted races you prevent a ton of problems.  If you open the door for level adjusted races, prepare for someone to play a monster of legend, paragon magestier, lich rakshasa sorcerer who would end up immune to all 8th level and below spells and could easily make himself immune to all weapons of +26 or lower.
For ability scores use the Elite array or the 30-point buy. All abilities automatically get a +5 inherit bonus across the board (this is partial compensation for character wealth by level) A character can be of any age. 
A character may have one base class, one prestige class and one epic prestige class. This is more to keep things simple for both the players and the DM.  We strayed from this slightly during our character creation, but we kept the spirit of the rule alive.  No one had levels in more than three classes, other than the 87th level commoner, focusing on one class.  We ruled that if you took a base class, you had to take at least 10 levels in that class and if you took a prestige class, you had to max it out (5 or 10 levels).  This was to prevent people from taking 2 levels in paladin to get divine grace and two levels in ranger to get two-weapon fighting, etc.
When calculating skill-points keep a close eye on your Intelligence. Skill-points are not retroactive. Note that you can decide when your character gets his +5 inherit bonus to Intelligence but it can’t be before 15th level.
Use average rolls for hit points and other variables.  There is a lot of die rolling, the module is designed for average die rolls, again, be prepared if you allow your players to roll everything out.
The Leadership feat is not allowed. Things are crazy enough without having to worry about your players controlling two characters (three if you have the Thrall herder prestige class).  We allowed one player to take a cohort as he needed it to qualify for an Epic Prestige Class and we loved his character concept.  He decided to be a good sport and make a 87th level commoner as a cohort, a mostly worthless character that still ads flavor without letting him control two massively powerful characters.  While it makes sense that character of this power level most likely would have followers, if not worshipers, it really breaks the game strength down.
You have 250,000,000 gp to buy magic items for.  The gold actually comes out to 277,777,770, or something like that.  We gave all PCs +5 inherit bonuses to all ability scores and then rounded it down to 250,000,000 gp, chalking up the difference to keep upkeeps and kingdom welfare.  
All magic items from the DMG and the EPHB are allowed. Homemade magic items follow the creation rules in the SRD and the following guidelines:
- No item may be exceeding 50,000,000 gp in price.
- Items that increase ability scores are capped at +30 enhancement bonus.  You can only use enhancement and inherit bonuses for ability score increases.
- Skill increases are capped at +100 competence, no other bonus allowed.
- Weapons are capped at +50 enhancement bonus. This is divided into max +25 enchantment bonus and max +25 special abilities.
- SR items are capped at 112.
- All bonuses on one item should be of the same type.  No divine or sacred or other miscellaneous bonuses.  Example: no ring of Strength +25 luck bonus, or a Helm of epic insight +25 sacred bonus to AC. 
You can deviate from the guidelines, but try to not do so by too much.  Trust us when we say that the more you allow in from other sources, the more pain and punishment you are asking for when you begin play.
Making a quick 100th level character
I think the best, or at least fastest, way is to make a character with 100 levels all in one class.  Make a 20th level character without any gear (feats and skills only), then add: +40 to your attack, +40 to your saves and 27 bonus feats and 20 ability increases and a +5 inherit bonus to all your ability scores. Use the point buy method for stats using 30 points and use the die averages for hit points. 
The above is true if you take at least 20 levels in one class up to 20th level and the rest are bonus feats and ability score increase for your normal leveling to 100th level.
If you go for a straight class, here are your bonus feats for over 20th, or epic, levels:
The epic level Fighter would gain 40 additional bonus feats
The epic Cleric and Paladin would gain an additional 26 bonus feats 
The epic Rogue would get 20 additional feats and 50d6 sneak attack and + 30 against traps
The epic Wizard and Sorcerer would gain 20 bonus feats

More to the point, this is starting to set a standard of capabilities I think. I suggest the following Value Guidelines:
*hp should around 3000 hp for front-line combatants, 1000 to 2000 for secondary combatants and other characters.
*AC must be 60 to have any chance of being useful against even non-combatants. AC 100 to 110 is needed to function in combat, with 150 or so needed for a decent chance to evade front-line combatants. 
*Attack bonus of +100 or so is needed for secondary combatants, and frontliners can reach +140 or so.
*Spell DCs reach 71 or so; almost anyone saves automatically. 
*Saves are often set too high; +71 or so should suffice. (Epic spells may break this.)
*A reasonable (optimal) damage output will be around 1000 hp/round, around 3000 is deadly and below 500 is weak.

Why play/design a 100th level module?
It has been asked many time by us, “Why would you play a 100th level module?”  For us the answer is simple, because we can.  The module originally started as a conversion of the original 100th level module H4 - The Throne of Bloodstone.  H4 was designed under first edition rules, where the main difference between a 20th level player and a 100th level player was hit points.  It quickly became clear to me, and others, that the module could never be converted into 3.5 for one main reason, hit points are the lest of things that a 100th level 3.5 character gains over 80 epic levels.

We quickly came together as a group of PCs and DMs to design 3.5s version of a 100th level module.

This module is not for everyone.  Many have told us that they would never play in such a module, however, many who have said they would not play in a 100th level module also stated that they don’t play D&D above level 9 because the game gets too crazy for them.  If you like low magic or low level gaming, then this module is not for you.  If you love stories of Gods and mortals who can do fantastic feat, then this may be for you.  The EPHB has many skills, feats and spells that can’t be used until much higher levels.  This module is designed to exploit the seldom-used abilities of the EPHB and push the limits of the game to the max.


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## CRGreathouse (Sep 8, 2005)

Sorry I've been a while.  I've kept up with the thread but I haven't finished my character yet -- maybe by Saturday?

I like the campaign gloss.  It reads pretty well, though a little heavy-handed on the DMing suggestions (perhaps rightfully so).

What versions of feats are we using?  The versions in the ELH/original 3.5 SRD, or the versions reprinted later?  For example, Armor Skin was knocked down to +1 in some supplement (Complete Warrior?)... do we use it as +2 or +1?  Likewise for other modified feats.


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## Yair (Sep 8, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What versions of feats are we using?  The versions in the ELH/original 3.5 SRD, or the versions reprinted later?  For example, Armor Skin was knocked down to +1 in some supplement (Complete Warrior?)... do we use it as +2 or +1?  Likewise for other modified feats.



Using anything beyond the listed sources will result in the users needing to have these sources to play - which is something we wish to avoid. I strongly suggest keeping to the feats as listed in the SRD/ELH.

DM-Rocco:
I must confess I am not very pleased with the introduction. I just don't see how it is relevant to the storyline we agreed on - IIRC, the characters were in fact sent by the gods to climb on the Spire at level 20 as the initial scene, they were certainly not the god's opponents.
I don't mind playing god's opponents at all, but this is just not the storyline we agreed on. If you want to change the storyline to "Beyond God and Devil" (a la "beyond good and evil"), I would be very happy to explore this theme. But it needs to be stated and a storyline worked out.
I also am not sure that our characters can take on gods one-on-one. If using the Faiths & Pantheon stats, I'm pretty sure we can't - I'll work on that and keep you posted.

As for the mechanical technicalities, I would order the explanations the other way around. 

Here is my version of your text. It's more formal, I'm afraid - that's just my style of writing. But note how I ordered it differently, I think the order in my version is better (then again, I have been known to err).

*Introduction*

_The winds buffeted horribly this high up the Spire. By rights, they should have thrown the old Wizard to an impossibly long plummet, bereft of his magic as he was. But the wizened old man did not reach level 100 without some cunning. “Forward! Up!” he bellowed at the great beast he rode, though he doubted it could hear him over the wind's howl. Prodding it forward, he slowly made his way up the Spire at the center of the Heartlands, climbed the very heart of the multiverse. Haggard, cold, and wind-shorn he reached his destination. The No-Priest was already waiting for him at the top.
“You look uncomfortable” the No-Priest chuckled. “Unbuckle and come sit with me, enjoy the view.”
The Wizard frowned. “We have work to do, this is no silly matter.”
“Come now,” the No-Priest was smiling, but there was a hint of steel in his eyes. “You should at least take one last look at what you're about to destroy.”
They sat upon the Spire, watching the Heartlands below them spreading out into the horizon, into all the planes of existence. Above them the lights of Sigil were just barely visible, but they could almost see the fine net of portals it wove, poised like spider at the center of the multiverse. 
After a long time, the Wizard shifted. “Come on” he said, “we have a multiverse to destory.”
Upon the spire at the center of everything, where even a God's power is quelled, the two impossibly wove their spell, and the foundations of existence begun to crumble._

*It's The End Of The Cosmos As We Know It* is a Dungeons and Dragons adventure for level 100 characters, with a prelude for level 20 or higher characters that will culminate in increasing the character's level to 100. It is not set in any particular world, and could be easily worked into any campaign where the Spire may exist. Although it is designed to be usable as part of an ongoing campaign,it is primarily designed as a one-shot adventure. The adventure can be run with your own characters, but the pregenerated characters that were used in playtest are provided and recommended. During the adventure the characters should gain enough XP to raise several levels, and downtime will be provided for the manufacture of magic items or spell research. The whole adventure is designed to take about [??] 4 to 6 hour sessions to complete.
__This adventure uses the epic level rules as defined in the System Reference Document, which are a mixture of the rules in the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide and additional content from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook (ELH). It was necessary to impose some further guidelines and interpretations, within these rules, as otherwise the variability in power level is too extreme to accommodate (see Character Creation, below). 
__In addition to the core and epic rules, the adventure uses rules from Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, and a few additions from the Book of Vile Darkness, the Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Epic Insights section from Wizards of the Coast's website. Faiths and Pantheons is all but required for the statistics of some deities, but for the most part the portions used from the other books can be understood without them or fairly easily replaced.  
__This is a one-shot adventure, produced with no intention of making a sequel. As such, it accepts the epic rules as they are, without making compromises or changes that may enhance a longer campaign. If you are interested in continuing play in high epic levels, the Immortals Handbook from UpperKrust and CRGreathouse should make for fine reading material if it is published in your lifetime.

*Preparation*
To play this adventure, you must have access to the core and epic rules. Access to Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, The Book of Exalted Deeds, The Book of Vile Darkness, and the occasional other sourcebook used can be useful, but lack of these books can be circumvented with less or more work. 
__The adventure may begin with “lowly” level 20 characters, but turns to level 100 fairly quickly. The players can use the pregenerated characters, which are provided at level 20 and 100, or create their own characters. Making a level 100 character is great fun, but very time consuming. Make sure that you are conversant with the epic rules before setting down to make one, and be prepared to dedicate four hours or more to character generation. It is imperative that the characters will be created in accordance with the character creation guidelines below, or the adventure will need to be retrofitted on the fly to accommodate them.

*Character Creation*
In order to create an adventure for level 100 characters, you have to impose some limits during character creation. The variability is otherwise so high that no single adventure would be able to match the party's capabilities. Even with the following limitations you can easily “brake” the game, so when creating a character try to keep her capabilities in line with the pregenerated characters provided. Significantly more or less powerful characters would require the DM to significantly modify the adventure to fit the party, which at this power level entails a lot of work. You should be especially leery of exploiting “combos” or loopholes to achieve optimal tactics; this is especially true for spellcasters. With the right choice of spells and feats, for example, a level 100 wizard can do in excess  of 1,000,000 hit points of damage in one round. The adventure does _not_ cater to such power levels.
__The primary statistics that the adventure is built to expect are as follows:
* HP should be around 3000 for front-line combatants, 1000 to 2000 for secondary combatants and other characters.
* An AC of 60 is needed to have any chance of being useful against even non-combatants. ACs of 100 to 110 are needed to function in combat, with 150 or so needed for a decent chance to evade attacks from front-line combatants.
* An Attack bonus of +100 or so is needed for secondary combatants, and frontliners can reach +140 or so. 
* The adventure assumes that most characters will have 50% concealment, and that they will be able to overcome most sources of concealment.
* Saving throws are assumed to be around +100, with +70 or so being weak and +135 or so being possible.
* Spell DCs of non-epic spells reach 70 or so, so saving throws against non-epic spells will often succeed. Monsters are designed and chosen with this in mind.
* Skills are assumed to reach up to +200 to +300 in the character's focus. The adventure tries to make use of all skills, including Knowledge and Perform skills, Diplomacy and Bluff, Sense Motive, Hide and Move Silently, Listen and Spot, Search and Disable Device, Open Lock, Spellcraft, Concentration, Climb and Jump, and more.
* A reasonable optimal damage/round output is around 1000 hp/round, around 3000 hp/round is deadly and below 500 hp/weak is weak.

The pregenerated characters do not use Level Adjusted races or templates. Some of these may be problematic at high levels, in particular the Paragon, Monster of Legend, or Magister templates. Consider carefully before allowing non-PHB races or templates whether their effect at level 100 is problematic; this is often the case with templates that improve based on HD.
__Only the core and epic rules were used for the pregenerated characters. You may include other material, the exemplars were kept core mainly for simplicity. Of course, we strongly discourage including material that is not balanced by Level Adjustment, such as divine ranks and some 3.0 templates.

Here are the rules for actually making your level 100 character:
Choose your Ability Scores from the Elite Array, or use a 30 point buy (DMG, page ??). All abilities automatically benefit from a +5 inherent bonus across the board. A character may be of any age.
__Your character may have one base class, one prestige class, and one epic prestige class. This is just to keep things simple for both the player and the DM. You should avoid dipping into several classes to cherry pick class special abilities, if you enter a class pursue it to a significant amount (usually to its non-epic end, at least). Cherry picking will just increase your power beyond what's appropriate for your level, and unbalance the adventure. You are limited to the core and epic rules and classes unless your DM says otherwise; think carefully before allowing non-core classes.
__When calculating skill ranks keep a close eye on your Intelligence. Skill ranks are not retroactive. You can decide when your character gets his +5 inherent bonus to Intelligence, but it can't be before level 15.
__Use average rolls for hit points (maximum at level 1) and other variables. There is a lot of die rolling, the adventure is designed for average die rolls. (In fact, there is so many die that it's not reasonable that you'll get a significantly different result from rolling them.)
__Do not take the Leadership feat. The main problem with this is the cohort, as running two high-epic PCs is very difficult. Note that we do have one pregenerated character with this feat - his cohort was intentionally made as an epic commoner to alleviate this problem (and for fun).
__You have 250,000,000 gp to purchase personal gear. (A level 100 character should actually have 277,777,770 gp; assume the rest goes to the inherent bonuses, supporting a few kingdoms, and so on.) All magic items in the DMG and the ELH are allowed. Custom magic items can, and should, be created to fit the character; use the following guidelines:
* No single item should exceed a 50,000,000 gp market price.
* Increasing an ability score is capped at a +30 enhancement bonus. Only enhancement (and inherent) bonuses are allowed.
* Skills increases are capped at +100 competence. Only competence bonuses are allowed.
* Weapons are capped at a +50 total bonus equivalent, with up to +25 enhancement bonus and +25 in special abilities.
* Spell Resistance is capped at 112. SR items cost x10, like other epic items and not like the Mantle of Spell Resistance suggests.
* No custom item should not provide divine, sacred, morale, or other miscellaneous bonuses; leave those to spells. Armor class should be increased by armor (and enhancement), shield (and enhancement), natural armor (and enhancement), and deflection bonuses; saves should be increased with resistance bonuses; and so on.
You can deviate from these guidelines, but try not to stray too far. For example, the epic commoner has a multitude of epic classes, but that's because there is no Epic Commoner class. The most important thing is to keep the characters within the expected power level of the adventure.
__When designing PC epic spells, keep their power level in mind. In general, mitigating factors should _not_ be used. The exception are weak spells, such as Energy or Destroy spells, that need the boost, and cases where it is thematically appropriate and not overpowering. Some seeds should not be used to their extreme (e.g. Armor and Fortify).

The fastest way to generate a level 100 character is as follows:
* Make a single-classed level 20 character, using the Elite Array (15,14,13,12,10,8) and the core-rules only, with no gear.
* Add a +40 epic bonus to your base attack (but do not increase iterative attacks!) and saves. 
* Add 20 level-based ability increases, and a +5 inherent bonus to each ability score.
* Add 27 epic (or non-epic, if you choose) feats, plus more based on your class: 40 for an epic Fighter, 26 for a Cleric or Paladin, 20 for a Rouge or Wizard or Sorcerer, ... This can take time; to speed it up, you can focus on taking one or two types of stacking feats (such as Improved Spell Capacity or Improved Sneak Attack) and only take a few other feats to complement it; this will lower the number of choices, and hence the time.
* Add your class's special abilities. Rouges add +50d6 sneak attack and +30 against traps, ...
* Set aside 250,000,000 gp and whittle it away by acquiring magic items. Set your sights on the power levels described above. This can take a lot of time, so if you want to keep things simple just focus on getting ability score enhancement, competence, resistance, natural armor, and deflection bonuses to bring you to the needed power level, add in a weapon or two, and a mantle of SR 112, ring of universal energy immunity, and shield of greater reflection. You're set. 
* Decide on when your Int was raised and by how much, if at all, and calculate skill ranks appropriately. Allocate skill ranks according to your class skill list.
Put it all together, and congratulations – you have a (single-classed) level 100 character in a (relatively) short time.

*Why play/design a 100th level module?*
It has been asked many time of us, “Why would you play a 100th level module?” For us the answer is simple: because we can. The module originally started as a conversion of the original 100th level module H4 - The Throne of Bloodstone. H4 was designed under first edition rules, where the main difference between a 20th level player and a 100th level player was hit points. It quickly became clear that the module could never be converted into 3.5 for one main reason, hit points are the lest of things that a 100th level 3.5 character gains over 80 epic levels.
__We quickly came together as a group of PCs and DMs to design 3.5s version of a 100th level module.
__This module is not for everyone. Many have told us that they would never play in such a module, however, many who have said they would not play in a 100th level module also stated that they don’t play D&D above level 9 because the game gets too crazy for them. If you like low magic or low level gaming, then this module is not for you. If you love stories of Gods and mortals who can do fantastic feat, then this may be for you. The ELH has many skills, feats and spells that can’t be used until much higher levels. This module is designed to exploit the seldom-used abilities of the ELH and push the limits of the game to the max.


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## Sage (Sep 8, 2005)

I like both plotlines, but Yair's has more flair and I'm a planescape fan, so my vote would go there   

I like the idea of characters that supposedly reached 100th level the standard way even better, why is that not an option? We could create guidelines for character backgrounds/achievements and stuff, and they would even try to reach 100th level (I haven't started working on mine, but I intend to).

Also, is this going to be playtested over OpenRPG? something else? in someone's basement?


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## Yair (Sep 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> I like both plotlines, but Yair's has more flair and I'm a planescape fan, so my vote would go there



Thanks, but it's basically just the plot we agreed on back on page 3 or so.
Phew, these pages are long...



> I like the idea of characters that supposedly reached 100th level the standard way even better, why is that not an option? We could create guidelines for character backgrounds/achievements and stuff, and they would even try to reach 100th level (I haven't started working on mine, but I intend to).



Well, sure. But there aren't going to be many 100 level characters around, and we'd like anyone to be able to use the adventure. The prelude supplies such a method. It should, I think, be roleplay based and flexible enough to accomodate nearly any PC power level, so you could use your 25th level or your 14th level characters, or perhaps even your level 100 characters.
We could try to make the prelude optional, allowing you to take your level ~20 characters through it to incorporate them into the story but using it only as a background detail in the histories of our level 100 characters, which can already be enmeshed in the story's background. Is that what you mean?
I hope you don't mean reaching level 100 through play. That's... 6.25 years of playing by WotC's generous DMG assumptions. Highly unlikely.



> Also, is this going to be playtested over OpenRPG? something else? in someone's basement?



I think we should write the adventure before we debate how to playtest it.  I'd like as many playtestings as possible, and *may* be able to force convince my regular group to playtest it to humour me once it's done. Once it's done. I also look forward to playing it with one another here. I believe some chat-baesd program would be vital to pulling this off successfully, OpenRPG is certainly a possibility. Fantasy Grounds would be ideal, but that's expensive.
I wonder if programs such as DMGenie will be able to monitor the combat stats of our epic characters? That would certainly ease a lot of problems.
At any rate, we are still a long way from playtesting. Patience, young man, patience! [Of course now you'll tell me you're twice my age, but hey...]


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## Sage (Sep 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Thanks, but it's basically just the plot we agreed on back on page 3 or so.
> Phew, these pages are long...



I didn't read the plot   



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I hope you don't mean reaching level 100 through play. That's... 6.25 years of playing by WotC's generous DMG assumptions. Highly unlikely.



No, just the concept of characters that haven't been suddenly boosted, but made it all the way.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Patience, young man, patience! [Of course now you'll tell me you're twice my age, but hey...]




I'm 18 and just started university


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## Yair (Sep 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> I'm 18 and just started university



Ahh, those lost days of youth, ere I frolicked in th sun....
What subject? 
I'm a 29 years old physicist-wannabe, trying to steam up resolve to seriously start my PhD thesis in physical chemistry (on quantum thermodynamics).


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 8, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> Sorry I've been a while.  I've kept up with the thread but I haven't finished my character yet -- maybe by Saturday?
> 
> I like the campaign gloss.  It reads pretty well, though a little heavy-handed on the DMing suggestions (perhaps rightfully so).
> 
> What versions of feats are we using?  The versions in the ELH/original 3.5 SRD, or the versions reprinted later?  For example, Armor Skin was knocked down to +1 in some supplement (Complete Warrior?)... do we use it as +2 or +1?  Likewise for other modified feats.




I suggest using feats that are modified for 3.5, to keep things on the same page.  However, if you think a feat was improperly toned down, post it here and let's have a look at it.


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## Sage (Sep 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> What subject?
> I'm a 29 years old physicist-wannabe, trying to steam up resolve to seriously start my PhD thesis in physical chemistry (on quantum thermodynamics).



Sociology, but it was very close to being physics as I'm a hawk at physics haven't had much about termodynamics though, and practically nothing about quantumn mechanics.
I'm planning on studying physics when I'm seventy or something


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Using anything beyond the listed sources will result in the users needing to have these sources to play - which is something we wish to avoid. I strongly suggest keeping to the feats as listed in the SRD/ELH.
> 
> DM-Rocco:
> I must confess I am not very pleased with the introduction. I just don't see how it is relevant to the storyline we agreed on - IIRC, the characters were in fact sent by the gods to climb on the Spire at level 20 as the initial scene, they were certainly not the god's opponents.
> ...


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## Sage (Sep 8, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> What versions of feats are we using?  The versions in the ELH/original 3.5 SRD, or the versions reprinted later?  For example, Armor Skin was knocked down to +1 in some supplement (Complete Warrior?)... do we use it as +2 or +1?  Likewise for other modified feats.




The version in my srd says +1 and there are no mentions of changes to the feat in errata, so they must've included the change when they added the epic sections to the SRD; way before Complete Warrior. I think we should use +1.
Curiously, there's no mention of this in the update booklet  :\


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## Yair (Sep 8, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I followed the Dungeon Magazine format where they give e very brief description and then DM need to know information (which will be longer once you guys firgure out Epic spell rules and guidelines).  The introduction is the next part, where I get into the story behind the story.  ...
> 
> Also, we never truely agreed on anything.  I proposed a storyline that involved everyones ideas and, hmm, who was that, someone reworked the same thing and called it his own.  After that, everyone got into character creation and forgot the plot.  I'm just trying to get things beyound character creation.



I am not trying to work against you here, you are right that we should be starting to work on the storyline now that the characters are nearing (?) completion. 
I was trying to offer my suggestions on how to improve the text you provided, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the text or thank you for posting it. My criticism revolves around two points:
- I found the flavor text in the begining to be counter to the spirit of the storyline we discussed, as I remembered it. You're right that it's been a long time, I may be remembering wrongly.
- I agree that the DM need-to-know information should be presented after the flavor text, but I think it should be presented in a slightly different order. If you'll read my post, you'll see that it's mainly just a reordering of your content. (I've made some slight changes, but mainly it's your rules in a different order.)
I've also changed the language to be less personal, following the Dragon writing guidelines (which I assume apply to Dungeon?). I'm not at all confident that this is the right tone to take.

I'm currently thinking on the prelude, amongst other things. I think it should be set in Sigil, with the goal being finding a way to reach the top of the Spire. Some politics with the Factions should be in order, perhaps an intervention by the Lady of Pain, and some epic and sound way of reaching the top of the spire should be found at the end. 
I'm not sure who the enemies could be, in this scenario.
Setting it in Sigil and making it a politicaly-based adventure would allow to stretch the prelude section, making it applicable across many character levels.
Sage, being a planescape fan, might have a better approach to doing this.


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## CRGreathouse (Sep 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> The version in my srd says +1 and there are no mentions of changes to the feat in errata, so they must've included the change when they added the epic sections to the SRD; way before Complete Warrior. I think we should use +1.
> Curiously, there's no mention of this in the update booklet  :\




As I recall, the original epic SRD was 3.5 but had Armor Skin at +2.  It was later modified without fanfare to change several feats, including Epic Toughness and Armor Skin.

At +1 Armor Skin is useless; at +2 I probably wouldn't take it, but I'd consider it if I had extra feats.


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## Yair (Sep 8, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> At +1 Armor Skin is useless; at +2 I probably wouldn't take it, but I'd consider it if I had extra feats.



It must be +1, or else it would outpace Prowess. Attack and Defense must be balanced. At least, that's what behind the change, I think.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Ahh, those lost days of youth, ere I frolicked in th sun....
> What subject?
> I'm a 29 years old physicist-wannabe, trying to steam up resolve to seriously start my PhD thesis in physical chemistry (on quantum thermodynamics).




34 year old graphic designer with a itch in my crawl to be a writer


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 8, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> The version in my srd says +1 and there are no mentions of changes to the feat in errata, so they must've included the change when they added the epic sections to the SRD; way before Complete Warrior. I think we should use +1.
> Curiously, there's no mention of this in the update booklet  :\




+1 sounds good to me.


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## Sage (Sep 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Sage, being a planescape fan, might have a better approach to doing this.



Well, I may be a fan but I haven't actually played much planescape.

Anyway, _if_ we are going with the defy the gods approach, stealing power from the Lady of Pain would be a great plotline. This could be done in some way at 20th level probably by some ancient ritual or clause or something that noone else has ever tried, possibly by following a clue that's subtly there in all her mazes.
Reaching the top of the spire might actually be the way to take her power.
Anyway, once the PCs have usurped the Lady of Pains power, they can't control the portals, and all portals in the multiverse simply opening without any obvious way of closing them could agruably be the beginning of the unraveling of the mutliverse.

Of course this is very rough, but what do you think?
And again, the players gain a power boost instead of going the straight way, but it could be done at 100th level with the players gaining no real power (or a very limited amount anyway) by taking the Lady's power, but still lose control.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 8, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I am not trying to work against you here, you are right that we should be starting to work on the storyline now that the characters are nearing (?) completion.
> I was trying to offer my suggestions on how to improve the text you provided, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the text or thank you for posting it. My criticism revolves around two points:
> - I found the flavor text in the begining to be counter to the spirit of the storyline we discussed, as I remembered it. You're right that it's been a long time, I may be remembering wrongly.
> - I agree that the DM need-to-know information should be presented after the flavor text, but I think it should be presented in a slightly different order. If you'll read my post, you'll see that it's mainly just a reordering of your content. (I've made some slight changes, but mainly it's your rules in a different order.)
> ...




I too love Planescape, we have that in common   

I didn't like my order on things either, but it was late at night when I posted it and I just wanted to get it on the thread fo ryou guys to review.  The best thing to do when writing is to post whatever you have, otherwise you never get anywhere.  We can easily move stuff around, but it is not complete.  We need to include some rules on Epic spells and other things for the DM.  

I was going to remove the personal comments for final post.  They are my merger attempt to be funny, which never seems to go as planned   

I didn't add in flavor text like you did, I was using the Age of Worms module as a template for creating the begining and they just did a quick paragraph as an over view.  I love flavor text, it is my most favorite part of Magic the Gathering, reading the flavor text, so we will use some for sure.

As for starting point, Sigil is all apart of the plan and the only way to get to the top of the Spire is by climbing or finding a beast to fly you there.  Both are hard.  Creature will not want to fly there, even with a powerful need, you'll see later when I write that, and climbing will be easy for those who have ranks in climb, but at over a 1000 miles in height, you will find it harder than you think.

Anyway, I attached the Dungeon magazine writer's guidelines.  I'll try to cut back on my humor that only I get and stick the facts Joe.  

CRGreathouse:
It is a bit heavy handed in DM instructions, but you really need it otherwise you can't run the game.  Without giving the DM some realistic guidelines, you open a can of worms that they can't close.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 8, 2005)

Okay, I tracked down the two different stories.  I don't think Turnil is reading anymore.  Too bad, he had some very good and creative ideas.  Hope he comes back and finishes the Castle in the Void for us, but I think he is out unless we do everything his way.

I have included a brief summary of what I wrote up and then the longer version and then Turnil's proposal, which is very simular to mine, in a brief version and then his longer version.  this is a very mong post, be warned.

I like the idea of the creator God, but I am partial to my idea more as I only want Gods to play a small role in the over all theme of the module.  A chapter or two kind of thing, not an every encounter kind of thing.

I also like the idea of two beings who have power more powerful than the 100th level characters and a child's perspective on things.  Makes for some great role-playing.  Anyway, everyone look over the two different ideas and see what you like.  We can break it down and build a third version as well.

As for making it to be played at any level, I don't think you can do it.  In 1st edition you could, but not 3.5.  That is, however, why I originally came up with the idea of having the party start out as 20th level (or higher) characters and then get elevated to 100th level by the magical event.  It solved the problem of not having "really" got XP for 100th level and still offered a way for players to take their own characters into the module and fit in any campaign.  It was only a spur of the moment thing that I put in the beinging info about defying the Gods.  Either way, doesn't bother me.  

Here is the plot ideas:

Chapter one - the Gods in peril
role-playing adventure hook and climbing the Spire

Chapter 2 - Strange Days
Create 100th level guys (hours in-and-of-itself) and then figure out how to reverse the effects of the Magical Event. Also, reminder for the DM in an ongoing campaign that they can adlib at this point and have enemy be friends and friends now enemies

Chapter 3 - The Ajah Armory
Encounter with Ajah, who let's you use his armory, and then Ay-Gax. Encounters with Ay-Gax can be open ended or just the one or two events we put there, namely stopping the Blood war. He eventually teleports to Sigil

Chapter 4 - Iy-Xeg
Iy-Xeg is the Xeg-Yi in human form. Again, open ended enough to allow for a creative DM to add what he wants. He can have the PCs chase him across the cosmos with his own ideas of mischief or just have him take Iy-Xeg to the 9 heavens where he casts out the angels as we will have an encounter for. He eventually teleports to Sigil.

Chapter 5 - The Wizard’s madness
Basically just room for one or two or three really tough encounters in a total dream realm

Chapter 6 - the Cleric redemption
Cleric tries to make friends with the PCs in one encounter and then we leave it open for the DM to have encounter with mass amounts of Gods. I did also want to have one massive encounter where the PCs can truly go nuts and flex their considerable might, like facing an army.

Chapter 7 - The Lady of Pain’s Revenge
I wanted to use the Lady of Pain cause she is a 210 EC. Even if it is a one sided fight and ends quickly, other than that, leave it open ended for a creative DM to have fun with the PCs chasing the Energons around Sigil, really two encounters.

Chapter 8 - Crating the Epic Spell of Reseeding
Crafting and defending those who are making the epic spell.

Chapter 9 - Assault on the Castle in the Void
Most likely the biggest part of the adventure as we have to make a castle. Doesn't have to be big or traditional. But I suspect at least 10 encounters

Okay, I propose you in more detail my shortened / streamlined version of this adventure:

Okay, 100th level module proposal.

First thing is first, the first chapter of the module is for 20th level characters. I figured out a way to use normal high level characters in a 100th level adventure, so you can use it as part of your current game, you’ll see.

Chapter one - the Gods in peril

The story starts with the party receiving a warning from there Gods so strong that it wakes your character, whether you are sleeping, in a coma or even from the grave. A wizard and cleric of surprising power have evaded the premonitions of the Gods by plotting and planning events for a powerful magical event. They evaded the divine power of the Gods ability to see into the future by planning for this event at the base of the Spire in the Outlands where the God cannot see. They have climbed to the top of the Spire and began their magical event by creating a Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra. For those of you not familiar with Magical Events, see chapter 3 of the DMGII.

The Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra is just the beginning, but they have also started a new magical event, an Elemental Swarm (new one I made up for this adventure) that prohibits magic from those not protected in a certain way, and as it is a unique event, only the wizard and the cleric have this power, not even the Gods understand it. The top of the Spire is also the site of a circle with the Spirit of Nature’s Rage. The burning eye is slowly growing, so those who teleport to Sigil find the city in flames and also discover that the Lady of Pain is occupied trying to hold the city together from the vast amount of magical energy forming on the Spire tip. 

No way can be found from Sigil to get to the top of the Spire, you have to go to the Outlands and travel from the outer most part of the plane towards the center to the Spire. Every God is concerned and has called a truce of sorts, so every race is represented and all of the Gods have gathered in the Outlands to try and come to a solution. The progressive failings of magic as you get closer to the Spire means that most won’t get to close and most of the Gods will not come closer than 301 miles from the spire as they will lose their divine ranks. A few will deem this threat powerful enough to venture to the top of the Spire itself, however.

Once the party over comes the problems to get to the top of the Spire, should be fun without magic, a third magical events begins. The party sees the wizard and the cleric standing under the Burning Eye of Al-Ghantra on either side of a Sphere of Annihilation . There may or may not be an encounter where the evil doer’s can monologue and/or fight, but before the party gets to crazy, the wizard and cleric complete the next magical event and open a Consuming Vortex of Traal right behind the Sphere of Annihilation. The area if flooded with Negative and Positive energy. Once a few of the Gods enter the area, something unexpected occurs, the Magical event of the Elemental Swarms falters and an Elder - Mega Xag-Ya and an Elder - Mega Xeg-Yi, (energons page 168 of the MotP), enter the area and once they see each other they converge on each other and explode, causing the wizard and the cleric to lose control of the Sphere of Annihilation which gets sucked into the Consuming Vortex of Traal and then pulls in the Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra, causing a massive explosion across the cosmos.

Confused yet? It really isn’t that complicated, just sounds like it.

Chapter 2 - Strange Days

The party is flooded with power, both from the Gods and the energy of all the planes combined. Basically they are recreated, atom by atom, but on the plus side, for the time being, they have the power of 100th level characters, yeh . They can also temporarily be a different race, remember they are parts of many different races, but no divine ranks. Now they make their 100th level character. Please no leadership feats 

The Wizard and Cleric were trying an experiment but with the Gods interfering, they created a rift in the cosmos and destroyed the whole of the current cosmos, throwing everyone, or mostly everyone, into an alternate cosmos. 

Adventure hook, you must figure out how to reverse the effects of the Magical Event and restore your old Cosmos or have the deaths of a googolplex beings on your conscious. Deal with that. Parts of this chapter can deal with some fun differences between the old Cosmos and this one, like some old enemies are now your friends and your best friend is a back stabber.
Chapter 3 - The Ajah Armory

As a 100th level guy, you have the same gear you did when you were 20th level, plus a few extra items, but we will have rules for continuing to pimp out your current 20th level gear, this will reduce the massive power or way to much disposable income of a 100th level character, some anyway. Also, you will have access too The Ajah Armory. In this chapter you have a run in with Ay-Gax, a small child, is wondering around the planes, or other location. He is really the Xag-Ya, but he does not know it, and the party should not at this point either. He is healing the sick and curing maladies in Limbo and forces the demons and devils to stop the blood war. He eventually teleports to Sigil

The Ajah Armory
Created under the working name of recursive co-terminal multi-functional all terrain interdimensional closet of useful things by Mizledorf, the Patron Saint of Gnomes Everywhere, Founding Liege of Kirpah Nasmong- a Gnomish Utopia (Male Celestial Gnome/Bard 33, Illusionist 33, Tinker 33/N). One day Mizledorf realized the name was too long (everyone else would just tune him out when he started to say "recursive"), and he said "Ah hah!" with great triumph. However, his yiddish accent made it sound like "ajah!" And thus his culturally bankrupt allies dubbed the armory the Ajah. Convinced it was flawed, Mizledorf gave it to his friends (the 100th level party) as a gift, and set about improving its design. That's Mizledorf for you, one parts gnome, two parts perfectionist.

How it works: Once attuned to the Ajah, a character need only concentrate as a standard action and whatever piece of equipment they desire appears equipped on them. They make a requisition check: d20 + Concentration. The check is made against the purchasing DC of the requisitioned item. Items worth 35,000 gold or less (DC 40) have no effect on the Ajah. Items (or collective "purchases") worth more cause the Ajah's new wealth to decrease until said items are returned. The wealth loss for a single requisition equals = 1/3 (purchase DC - wealth bonus) rounded up. The Ajah has a base wealth bonus of 40.


Chapter 4 - Iy-Xeg

Iy-Xeg is the Xeg-Yi in human form and he has just slew an epic dragon and is picking through the remains with a stick, like a creepy kid would a dead cat. The PCs encounter him starting an over throw of the heavens and other such suggested encounters for the DM. He eventually teleports to Sigil.

Chapter 5 - The Wizard’s madness

Originally Posted by Philip 

Unknown to the players when they try to teleport they are thrown into a dream plane of the Wizard’s mind and has split up into multiple personalities who are battling each other across his own mindscape. Unknown to them the PCs are pulled into his mind and must battle the personalities across an ever-changing landscape.

Without warning the PCs are suddenly the only living creatures left in an utterly barren universe. They have to find out what happened. Perhaps one of them did it inadvertently or they have a traitor amongst them?

The Cleric saves the party at the last minute, as she is trapped in here as well, but not before the PCs have many tribulations and trails.

Chapter 6 - the Cleric redemption

The Cleric knows that things have gone wrong and wants to help make things right, but the Gods don’t know this and they have surprises in store for the cleric, and now the PCs.

Originally Posted by Ozmar 

I think this is a good time to introduce the Gods for the PCs to fight and also to have them face mass assaults from armies and such. A good chance for them to really flex their massive abilities by slaying hoards of demons and devils and angels and undead and whatever else we choose.

Chapter 7 - The Lady of Pain’s Revenge

The child incarnations of the Energons have been playing with the PCs throughout the module, playing tricks on them and healing their enemies and starting fights. They are pure energy from the positive and the negative plane and have no emotions, they are, for the first time, free to experiment and they are very good at it, whether it is stopping the blood war or killing all the angels in the heavens, they are just children having fun, without a peer or parent to stop them. 

If the PCs attack them, consider them only to have 6 in all stats, but they have the knowledge and power of 1000th level characters, and can cast any spell, including epic spells and they don’t need others to do a ritual with them, so, even if they die, they come back in a single round and can and will use a powerful effect on the PCs. Most of the time however they just act like children, carefree and only thinking of themselves. It should also be noted that bringing the two together simply won’t reverse events, in fact, it gives them purpose. Where before they were content with minor experiments, now they feel whole when together (remember, alternate cosmos, things working backwards) and they begin to terrorize the cosmos.
The Energons are now in Sigil and the Lady of Pain has forced the PCs into Sigil to deal with them. Whatever happens, the PCs must fight the Lady of Pain, even if it is only for a few rounds. She will most likely overwhelm them, but the PCs might get the jump on her, either way she forces or begs the PCs to act and get the Energons out of her city. The Energons are not willing to leave such a fun city, unless the PCs can find a new place for them to have fun.

From Sigil, you can see the massive castle of the Wizard and Cleric that has formed in the center of the ring of Sigil. Actually, all you can see is a giant black sun which seems to absorb light, and everything else, it is a very large sphere of annihilation growing from the top of the Spire. It is so massive that it can almost be reached with very tall ladders from the streets of Sigil, no wonder the Lady of Pain is so upset.

Chapter 8 - Crating the Epic Spell of Reseeding

One of the places the PCs can offer the Energons to play in is the Observatorium. From here, and also with the help of the Library of Lore (Boccob’s Library), the PCs can create an Epic Spells to recreate the cosmos. While there are hard at work, the PCs can slowly see the warriors of the Ex-Blood War slowly taking control of the cosmos. The demons and the devils, without wasting energy on each other, have grown very powerful, enough of a challenge for 100th level PCs and from time to time they try to invade the Observatorium, or wherever the PCs are.

Chapter 9 - Assault on the Castle in the Void

Basically, everyone seemed to like the storyline by Turanil but I wanted something that made everyone happy, so while it may have to be scaled down a bit from your original idea, here is where you get to add your castle/dimension/epochs thingy. The wizard and the cleric however are in the castle, not just a Chronomancer, but the wizard can be a Chronomancer in addition to a wizard . Note, the Castle in the Void is actually inside a sphere of annihilation, which should make for some great fun in-and-of-itself. Also, the PCs must face the Lady of Pain and get her to let the Gods in the city so they can temporarily open a way into the sphere of annihilation.

Once the cleric and the Wizard are defeated, and they can and do summon some terrible stuff to deal with the PCs, the PCs can then place the energon children at the center of the Castle in the Void and cast the Epic Spell to reseed the time stream. Pretty much the end at that point.

What do you guys think?

Here is the rest of Turanil's idea:
Synopsis: A Chronomancer* (who was but 20th level), using wishes and chronomancy spells, created major time paradoxes which resulted in himself becoming a demi-god, but also creating a mess of dimensions and epochs. Now (inspired from the Amber novels), he resides in a castle at the junction of four planes and a dozen timelines. The world is slowly destroyed by this mess however, and is going to be soon obliterated in a giant sphere of annihilation (due to the time paradox and what not, this sphere is now growing fast, and if not stopped soon enough will devour the planet).

So the PCs will first have to figure out what happens, then get to the mighty castle at the junction of planes and epochs. Of course, other epochs mean they will have to fight villains from the future (with modern weapons) as well as from the past.


The World's End - 100th Level Adventure
Thanks for integrating everyon's ideas, but in the end it makes for a very long and complicated story (several gaming sessions). I would streamline much of this; for me the important parts would be:

1) Two villains of surprising power do a ritual that opens a rift into the universe. As a result, some creatures are infused with incredible energies and powers (so PCs become 100th level, but also a Xag-Ya and some demon-princes that happened to be in Sigil are likewise greatly improved). However, the rift has created a sort of gigantic growing sphere of anihilation that threatens to eventually destroy the world as it was a black hole.

2) PCs must travel to the Observatorium to create a couple of epic spells that will let them fix all of this mess. First, they must find a way to go inside the sphere of anihilation without being destroyed; requiring the creation of an epic spell. During this time, some improved demon-princes (see above) who want to get to the sphere for their own benefit try to attack the PCs.

3) Castle in the Void: This is in fact the horn of the Creator god, on an island in the void which actually is his mind. The two villains actually control the mind of the Creator god (insane, I know) and make him create hideous things (traps and monsters) to combat the PCs. Nonetheless, the two villains are themselves at a loss and losing control. Anyway, the castle in the void is the head/horn and mind of the Creator god. The castle is thus a living entity and a changing landscape. Also, the only reason a castle may exist into a sphere of anihilation is because it is the Creator god, who is greatly weakened and in tortured agony by this nonetheless.

4) Final: PCs eventually learn that the Creator god was at the origin of all the pantheon gods who then created the multiverse. However, the pantheon gods rebelled and locked the Creator god away. Yet, the Creator god managed to free himself in creating a "Cleric and a wizard of surprising powers" who were but manifestations-avatars of himself. So when the PCs are in the castle in the void, in the Creator's god mind controlled by the "Cleric and a wizard of surprising powers", etc., this is indeed: "a dream plane of the Wizard’s mind and has split up into multiple personalities who are battling each other across his own mindscape. Unknown to them the PCs are pulled into his mind and must battle the personalities across an ever-changing landscape."

5) To succeed the PCs must re-unify the whole Creator god's personnality. Thereafter well... no need to tell if everything is back to normal (PCs sent back into their own world by the Creator god, while he himself remains into the void), or if the Creator god kills all the pantheon gods, and now everywhere will only exist monotheistic religions dedicated to him...


1 - Introduction

Some obscure legends have hinted that before the dawn of time was a god so vile and so horrific, that all of the deities, good and evil, lawful and chaoric, united their powers to banish him into the void. The vile deity was so powerful in fact, that all the gods of all pantheons hadn't united, they would never have defeated him. 

However, the truth is slightly different from the almost forgotten legend. The truth is that the multiverse was born from the thought of the "Creator God". It was he who gave birth to the first deities who in turn created all what exists in the universe. The "Creator God" wasn't evil, neither good. But he was nearly omniscient and omnipotent. Hence, all the ancient deities of the dawn of times united their efforts and banished him into the void to get rid of his rule.

Eons later, more and more people got the idea to create monotheistic religions. Then, their combined faiths and prayers eventually awoke a tiny spark of consciousness in the slumbering Creator God, far away in the void where he had been banished. As such, he was able to incarnate two minuscule sparks (and maybe also a third) of his mind into two humans (and also maybe a gnome...). These three character grew and evolved, and lived long enough so they would ventually become 100th level characters: a gnome, cleric, and wizard. Note that it is hinted that they were the only characters in all history of the multiverse to achieve this "impossible" level.

Finally, the cleric and the wizard met, and went to the Outland's spire to perform an event of ritual magic of unthinkable scale... However, before they would finish their work, a group of 20th level adventurers was led there by their deities, obscure prophecies, or what not, in order to investigate.


2 - The Multiverse in Peril

The story starts with the party receiving a warning from there Gods so strong that it wakes your character, whether you are sleeping, in a coma or even from the grave. A wizard and cleric of surprising power have evaded the premonitions of the Gods by plotting and planning events for a powerful magical event. They evaded the divine power of the Gods ability to see into the future by planning for this event at the base of the Spire in the Outlands where the God cannot see. They have climbed to the top of the Spire and began their magical event by creating a Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra. For those of you not familiar with Magical Events, see chapter 3 of the DMGII.

The Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra is just the beginning, but they have also started a new magical event, an Elemental Swarm (new one I made up for this adventure) that prohibits magic from those not protected in a certain way, and as it is a unique event, only the wizard and the cleric have this power, not even the Gods understand it. The top of the Spire is also the site of a circle with the Spirit of Nature’s Rage. The burning eye is slowly growing, so those who teleport to Sigil find the city in flames and also discover that the Lady of Pain is occupied trying to hold the city together from the vast amount of magical energy forming on the Spire tip. 

No way can be found from Sigil to get to the top of the Spire, you have to go to the Outlands and travel from the outer most part of the plane towards the center to the Spire. Every God is concerned and has called a truce of sorts, so every race is represented and all of the Gods have gathered in the Outlands to try and come to a solution. The progressive failings of magic as you get closer to the Spire means that most won’t get to close and most of the Gods will not come closer than 301 miles from the spire as they will lose their divine ranks. A few will deem this threat powerful enough to venture to the top of the Spire itself, however.

So the PCs have to climb the spire. See it as a gigantic mountain that reaches beyond the sky. During their travel they should ride Rocs. Then they must make at least one encounter: they are not alone on this quest, as other groups have been sent by other deities! One interesting and useful encounter: a group of powerful fiends with their leader being somewhat a demon prince. Here they are normal (not taking into account the anti-magic nature of the place); they must be fought, but some must escape as later they will encounter the PCs again, but having beng improved themselves by the magical event as the PCs will.

Once the party over comes the problems to get to the top of the Spire, should be fun without magic, a third magical events begins. The party sees the wizard and the cleric standing under the Burning Eye of Al-Ghantra on either side of a Sphere of Annihilation . There may or may not be an encounter where the evil doer’s can monologue and/or fight, but before the party gets to crazy, the wizard and cleric complete the next magical event and open a Consuming Vortex of Traal right behind the Sphere of Annihilation. The area if flooded with Negative and Positive energy. Once a few of the Gods enter the area, something unexpected occurs, the Magical event of the Elemental Swarms falters and an Elder - Mega Xag-Ya and an Elder - Mega Xeg-Yi, (energons page 168 of the MotP), enter the area and once they see each other they converge on each other and explode, causing the wizard and the cleric to lose control of the Sphere of Annihilation which gets sucked into the Consuming Vortex of Traal and then pulls in the Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra, causing a massive explosion across the cosmos.


3 - The PCs Are Reborn Phoenixes

The Wizard and Cleric were trying to bring back the Creator God, but with the gods, the PCs, and others interfering the magical ritual went wrong and opened a rift in the multiverse. In addition, the PCs (and unknown to them the demon-prince and his fiends, plus maybe yet others) were flooded with power from the Creator God. 

As such, the PCs are basically recreated, atom by atom, and on the plus side, for the time being, they have got the powers of 100th level characters, yeah! (They can also temporarily be a different race, remember they are parts of many different races, but no divine ranks. Now they make their 100th level character. Please no leadership feats.) Otherwise, as 100th level characters, they still have the same gear they did when they were 20th level, this will reduce the massive power or way to much disposable income of a 100th level character.


4 - The Observatorium

Because of the event there is now above the spire a rift that lets sip into the world a growing sphere of anihilation that begins to suck everything into it like it was a black hole. Even if they are 100th level, the PCs cannot enter the sphere of anihilation without being instantly destroyed. They must find help or prepare themselves, or whatever. But in the end it becomes clear they need special magic, and to get it they will have to seek it into the fabled and legendary "Observatorium". 

It happens that here has waited for centuries a gnome of incredible power... 

The Ajah Armory
Created under the working name of recursive co-terminal multi-functional all terrain interdimensional closet of useful things by Mizledorf, the Patron Saint of Gnomes Everywhere, Founding Liege of Kirpah Nasmong- a Gnomish Utopia (Male Celestial Gnome/Bard 33, Illusionist 33, Tinker 33/N). One day Mizledorf realized the name was too long (everyone else would just tune him out when he started to say "recursive"), and he said "Ah hah!" with great triumph. However, his yiddish accent made it sound like "ajah!" And thus his culturally bankrupt allies dubbed the armory the Ajah. 
How it works: Once attuned to the Ajah, a character need only concentrate as a standard action and whatever piece of equipment they desire appears equipped on them. They make a requisition check: d20 + Concentration. The check is made against the purchasing DC of the requisitioned item. Items worth 35,000 gold or less (DC 40) have no effect on the Ajah. Items (or collective "purchases") worth more cause the Ajah's new wealth to decrease until said items are returned. The wealth loss for a single requisition equals = 1/3 (purchase DC - wealth bonus) rounded up. The Ajah has a base wealth bonus of 40.

So, the PCs must convince the gnome to aid them. If successful, he will give them his armory that will be invaluable to create the two or three mighty epic spells of ultimate power that will bring everything back to normal. They can also craft a few epic magical items while they are there...

I think this is a good time to introduce the Gods for the PCs to fight and also to have them face mass assaults from armies and such. A good chance for them to really flex their massive abilities by slaying hoards of demons and devils and angels and undead and whatever else we choose. The trick is to let them fight "normal" powerful critters to see how munchkin they have become...


5 - The Castle In The Void

Thus, with the first of the three epic spells, the 100th level PCs are able to teleport into the huge growing sphere of anihilation (without being instantly erased from existence and memory). They land on a rocky island in a black sea under a pitch black sky. On top of the island they see (at 100th level they have got the mean to see through the darkness, otherwise they are blind) a strange tower resembling a horn 300 fet tall. 

What the PCs don't know, is that they are in the Creator God's mind and dreams. Being inside his mind, they are protected from the anihilating void's destruction. Note however, that the Creator God barely resists utter anihilation himself, and thus create things (the whole dungeon) that are puny and insignificant with regard to what he was able to do originally. The island in the black sea is in fact the top of his head with his left horn. This symbolically represents the last spark of his immense powers that resists utter anihilation inside the great void.

The PCs enter the tower. If they choose the underground instead of the tower's entrance, they arrive into a huge cavern almost entirely filled with water. Place is furthermore equivalent to an anti-magic shell. Inside are four advanced half-fiend krakens, plus an aquatic advanced half-fiend tarrasque. So, unless having artifacts or ways to circumvent anti-magic, they must swim and fight the monsters below. This is made especially difficult because halfway through the flooded dungeon they encounter a elder water elemental who uses its power to create a whirlpower and tries to pins the party with its force. It is extremely powerful to pin such high level PCs, but the Krakens and the Tarrasque should be large enough that they would be uneffected.

Further into the dungeon and tower, it appears evident that the PCs are in the living and everchanging dreamscape of a powerful being with a split identity. Tow of these identities are the Cleric and Wizard who created all this mess. None of them can understand or remember that they are part of this place, and instead try to control it. It's like a much lesser aspect of the Creator God attempted to be himself with all his powers. 

In any case, the PCs must battle various epic monsters and traps. In the end, they meet with the demon-prince and his fiends that they had met in the beginning of the adventure on the spire. They have been themselves improved, and thus are now a match for the PCs. They too want to destroy the cleric and wizard, to take over the Creator God and become master of the universe (or so they believe). PCs must eventually understand that they must not kill the cleric and wizard, bt unite them to the Creator God's remaining mind with the last epic ritual of magic. If they succeed, the Creator God regains some of his awareness and sanity. 


6 - Epilogue

What happens thereafter also depends of the PCs' actions. Some possible outcomes:

-- The Creator God sends the PCs back to their world stripped of the undue power (levels), but in the meantime repairs the mess, and leaves the Universe to build another one beyond...

-- The Creator God slays all the pantheon gods and reshapes the multiverse. Magic disappears, and now the world awake as in real life. PCs are normal (20th level, but no more any magical equipment), but live on Earth during the middle ages. What it was before (D&D and wonder) is not entirely forgotten, but remains now only in legends. (Thereafter you begin a d20 modern campaign without magic.)


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## Yair (Sep 8, 2005)

I am not really familiar with Planescape, but I'm reading the stuff from planescape.com right now, and I reread the bit in Manual of the Planes too. I find it an odd mixture of things I like and things I most certainly don't, especially the website content.
One thing I liked in the fan version was that the Spire was infinite in height, so climbing it won't be an option and magic is not an option, leaving only more DM-controlled solutions to drive the plot. I was thinking a political adventure in Sigil to uncover the secret portals and keys that lead to the spire's top.

If we go with the Man Against God theme, Sage's idea about usurping the Lady of Pain does sound interesting. I'm thinking of setting up the prelude as an adventure to unseat the gods with one fell swoop by striking at the center, and the PCs succeeding only to find out the universe is falling apart without gods - and it's all their fault.
In this case the prelude should be designed for both level 20 and level 100.

I do not, however, see how this fits with the Mad Creator God theme of the original storyline. Or how to mesh them well. 
But I'm tired. I'll sleep on it. 

DM-Rocco: I actually found your first-person style more direct, engaging, and yes, funny, then my dry third-person attempt at a "professional" style. It does make it seem more amaturish (but then again - it is). 
I'm not quite sure what style is most approriate, I suspect the writing should best lie somewhere in the middle.


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## Sage (Sep 9, 2005)

Yair: The minor inconvenience of the spire being endlessly high shouldn't stop epic characters from reaching its top   

DM-Rocco: First off, I've only read the first proposal and like how there are many good opportunities for roleplaying, however, my main critique is from the player's perspective: It seems like they are being thrown around at a whim and are constantly meeting beings much more powerful than them. This ultimately leads to a sense of loss of control (which may be intentional?), but also, I belive that a player playing a 100th-level character would overall like more control and less confrontation with beings much-more powerful. Otherwise, what's the point of playing super-powered characters?
Of course, I might be wrong.

I'll read the other proposal later.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 9, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I am not really familiar with Planescape, but I'm reading the stuff from planescape.com right now, and I reread the bit in Manual of the Planes too. I find it an odd mixture of things I like and things I most certainly don't, especially the website content.
> One thing I liked in the fan version was that the Spire was infinite in height, so climbing it won't be an option and magic is not an option, leaving only more DM-controlled solutions to drive the plot. I was thinking a political adventure in Sigil to uncover the secret portals and keys that lead to the spire's top.
> 
> If we go with the Man Against God theme, Sage's idea about usurping the Lady of Pain does sound interesting. I'm thinking of setting up the prelude as an adventure to unseat the gods with one fell swoop by striking at the center, and the PCs succeeding only to find out the universe is falling apart without gods - and it's all their fault.
> ...





The only thing that I found that was infinite in the Manual of the Planes was the Abyss.  I was going on the diagram in the MotP that shows a picture of the Spire.  Climbing the Spire was one of the things I really liked.  I was going to put titans, and maybe other creatures, throw rocks at the party as they are climbing and try to kick them from the wall.  I have things in mind for flying to the top as well.  

Just re-read what you wrote about the spire being infinite as part of the fan based stuff.  We should try to stick to what the offical rules say as much as possible, it is the proper thing to do.

Anyway, I like the idea of having them climb the spire, it was apart of the ogiginal plot.  Perhaps there are portals on the spire itself that allow you to move up and down the spire and one actually leads to the top.

As to the lady of pain, she won't let Gods into her realm, so 100th level characters would be pushing the boundries of what she would allow.  I really want to have a scene in Sigil, and a fight with the Lady of Pain, but such a fight will be one sided, she is a DC 210 creature after all.  You could have 100 100th level characters fight her and she should be able to wipe the floor with them.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 9, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Yair: The minor inconvenience of the spire being endlessly high shouldn't stop epic characters from reaching its top
> 
> DM-Rocco: First off, I've only read the first proposal and like how there are many good opportunities for roleplaying, however, my main critique is from the player's perspective: It seems like they are being thrown around at a whim and are constantly meeting beings much more powerful than them. This ultimately leads to a sense of loss of control (which may be intentional?), but also, I belive that a player playing a 100th-level character would overall like more control and less confrontation with beings much-more powerful. Otherwise, what's the point of playing super-powered characters?
> Of course, I might be wrong.
> ...




Well, who asked for your opinion anyway    J/K   

Well, I did want to have some situations that they had to face where they were over powered and had to think their way through rather than just bully their way through with overwhelming power.  Thanks to CRGreathouse and UpperKrust we have access to CR creatures of over 100 and might as well use them now since they most likely won't ever be played again.

I was going to add in parts in each chapter where the characters can flex threir cosiderable might and boost their egos.  Perhaps even including everyone's favorite, small orphan boy, 3rd level rogue, tries to pick the parties pockets.  Yes he will get caught, or he should, but then what are you going to do?  I know of an Epic party that hunted him down, ransacked his meger dwelling and broke his fingers, and they where a epic level good party.

Anyway, I was trying for a couple of over powering encounters with a few ego boosting underpowered encounters and a couple, at least, regular challeneging situations in each chapter.  My outline was more of an over view of the story in each chapter than an exact encounter-by-encounter overview.  

Hope that helps


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## Yair (Sep 9, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> The only thing that I found that was infinite in the Manual of the Planes was the Abyss.



Actually, the Outlands are also described as inifnite but are effectively about 1200 feet in radius.
I agree that we better stick to the official version of things as much as possible, though, and that the spire-climbing scene can be great; ditch the infinite spire shtick.



> As to the lady of pain, she won't let Gods into her realm, so 100th level characters would be pushing the boundries of what she would allow.  I really want to have a scene in Sigil, and a fight with the Lady of Pain, but such a fight will be one sided, she is a DC 210 creature after all.  You could have 100 100th level characters fight her and she should be able to wipe the floor with them.



WELLL....
The Lady of Pain does not allow deities (and proxies etc) into her realm. I haven't read anything that will lead me to believe she places any limit on the power level of those who enter per se, I don't see why she would have a problem with level 100 characters walking in. Nothing in canon, I think, indicates she will even know.
I am not sure why you're saying she is a CR 210 creature. I know there is the dicefreaks version of her as a CR 208 being, but this is a fan site and as you noted fan-based material is not cannon material, we want to stick to WotC cannon as much as we can in this project.  I am not at ALL inclined to believe the CR 208 estimation of dicefreaks: our level 100 characters have ~3,000 hp, do you think they will have ~15,000 at level 200?! I don't. I likewise don't believe many of her other statistics, like AC or overcoming immunities or being able to develop any epic spell immediately at no cost, are approriate for a CR 200 or for that matter for any creature. At any rate, at the power level she is presented at dicefreaks there is absolutely no point in using her statistics in the adventure, she might as well (and more simply) be left as effectively all-powerful within her demense.

I agree with Sage, on rereading the plot suggestions, that they seem to push the PCs too much. I think we should do the prodding a little more gently.
Specifically, I think encounters with overpowering opponents should be kept down to a minimum. This is a LEVEL 100 adventure, no one is going to play at these power levels normally so the characters need to be POWERFUL. The challenges should mostly lie in figuring out when and how to flex their power, and they should not be feeling overpowered as that diminishes the whole idea of playing at such a high power level. A few overpowering encounters/creatures are fine, but they really should be taken down a notch.

If I were to stat the Lady of Pain, for this adventure, I would make her about equal in power to the PCs in combat ability, so the PCs could take her if they united forces and acted wisely. Just to open up options; I'm a strong believer in giving the PCs options and not letting NPCs overshadow them.
I would also give her some unique powers the PCs don't have and won't have even if they killed her, such as the ability to control the portals in the City of Doors. That way the Lady may need their aid (as she can't leave her city, for example), and the PCs may need her aid (for getting those portals working like they want them to), and there is room for maneauvering.


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## Ozmar (Sep 9, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> The only thing that I found that was infinite in the Manual of the Planes was the Abyss.  I was going on the diagram in the MotP that shows a picture of the Spire.  Climbing the Spire was one of the things I really liked.  I was going to put titans, and maybe other creatures, throw rocks at the party as they are climbing and try to kick them from the wall.  I have things in mind for flying to the top as well.
> 
> Just re-read what you wrote about the spire being infinite as part of the fan based stuff.  We should try to stick to what the offical rules say as much as possible, it is the proper thing to do.
> 
> ...




There are many infinities in the planes. The Abyss has an infinite number of infinite planes. Most planes are infinitely large - I think the exception is to find a finite plane. And the Spire is infinitely tall, but Sigil apparently floats on top of it (even though it has no top). The Planes are full of these kinds of paradoxes. At least, that's the way they are described "officially" in the Planescape setting, which is an AD&D setting (and which is one I am pretty familiar with).

That being said, I think it would be cool to have the characters resolve the paradox of climbing an infinitely tall spire to reach an unreachable summit. Perhaps by resolving a logical paradox, or by creating a counter-paradox that suggests a solution. (i.e., wherein they find themselve necessarily at the top of the Spire in order to resolve another paradox...)

Just some thoughts. Personally, I love the logical contradictions and have found that, (at least for me), they evoke the wonder and mystery of the planes. "You see a spire in the distance that stretches up into the sky without limit. Your mind reels trying to comprehend the infinitely tall structure. And at the top of the spire floats a ring." "Wait a minute! How does an infinitely tall spire have a top?" "You're not sure. And you begin to get a head-ache thinking about it..."

Fun. 

Ozmar the Contradictory DM


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## Ozmar (Sep 9, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I was going to add in parts in each chapter where the characters can flex threir cosiderable might and boost their egos.  Perhaps even including everyone's favorite, small orphan boy, 3rd level rogue, tries to pick the parties pockets.  Yes he will get caught, or he should, but then what are you going to do?  I know of an Epic party that hunted him down, ransacked his meger dwelling and broke his fingers, and they where a epic level good party.




How else do you expect him to learn anything?   



			
				DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Anyway, I was trying for a couple of over powering encounters with a few ego boosting underpowered encounters and a couple, at least, regular challeneging situations in each chapter.  My outline was more of an over view of the story in each chapter than an exact encounter-by-encounter overview.
> 
> Hope that helps




Agreed. But in terms of pacing, I recommend that we put the ego boosts earlier in the adventure, and then another one right after the first serious challenge. Maybe something like this...

1. Level 20 stuff. Face an impossible challenge (level 40?)
2. Boosted
3. Face the same impossible challenge and smear it.
4. Face an even bigger challenge (armies of fiends, CR 40 guy gets his "big brother", etc...) and smear it, too.
5. Face a real challenging challenge (appropriate CR)
6. Face another apparent challenge, but smear it.
7. Build up to the final big badda boom finale.

Something like that?

BTW - I'm really digging the whole outline so far, and am planning to run this at some future date, so keep up the great work!

Ozmar the Encouraging


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## Ozmar (Sep 9, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Actually, the Outlands are also described as inifnite but are effectively about 1200 feet in radius.
> I agree that we better stick to the official version of things as much as possible, though, and that the spire-climbing scene can be great; ditch the infinite spire shtick.




I dunno... I think the challenge inherent in the contradiction is one thing that will make the tale all the more epic and memorable. After all, we want the players to walk away saying: 

"And the first thing we did was climb the Spire to fight these two crazy wizards at the top."

"Wait a minute... how did you climb the Spire? Isn't it infinitely tall?"

Now what do you want them to say?

A. "Well, it wasn't really infinitely tall, it was just really tall."

B. "Well, we opened up Shrodeneger's Box to observe his cat, but simultaneously moved faster than light so that the Spire couldn't be both infinitely tall and exist at the same time, and since the Spire clearly did exist, we either had to be on the top or else we didn't exist. The universe could only resolve the contradiction by placing us at the top or erasing us from all existence, and since we had the Hauberk of Fundamental Reality (a divine relic) and the blessing of IO, we clearly had to exist, so we made it to the top."

Personally, I'd think that B would make a better story. 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> WELLL....
> The Lady of Pain does not allow deities (and proxies etc) into her realm. I haven't read anything that will lead me to believe she places any limit on the power level of those who enter per se, I don't see why she would have a problem with level 100 characters walking in. Nothing in canon, I think, indicates she will even know.
> I am not sure why you're saying she is a CR 210 creature. I know there is the dicefreaks version of her as a CR 208 being, but this is a fan site and as you noted fan-based material is not cannon material, we want to stick to WotC cannon as much as we can in this project.  I am not at ALL inclined to believe the CR 208 estimation of dicefreaks: our level 100 characters have ~3,000 hp, do you think they will have ~15,000 at level 200?! I don't. I likewise don't believe many of her other statistics, like AC or overcoming immunities or being able to develop any epic spell immediately at no cost, are approriate for a CR 200 or for that matter for any creature. At any rate, at the power level she is presented at dicefreaks there is absolutely no point in using her statistics in the adventure, she might as well (and more simply) be left as effectively all-powerful within her demense.
> 
> ...




I agree with most of this. Especially the part about giving the chars unique abilities so they have to work together in order to achieve their goals. With every challenge, we should have a solution (and perhaps only one is needed) in mind as to how it could be resolved, while remaining open to possible alternate solutions that we may not have thought of. Every workable solution that we come up with in play tests should be included in the DM's advice in the module, I think. 

Ozmar the Random


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 9, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Actually, the Outlands are also described as inifnite but are effectively about 1200 feet in radius.
> I agree that we better stick to the official version of things as much as possible, though, and that the spire-climbing scene can be great; ditch the infinite spire shtick.
> 
> 
> ...




While I think we need to stick to the rules as much as possible, there is a point, espeacially in making a 100th level adventure, that you have to adlib as it were.  The Lady of Pain is such a case.  Why, because to the best of my knowledge WOTC doesn't have stats for her, so we would have to make some.  We don't have to use Dicefreaks version, but she is obsurdly more powerful than the Gods and she knows who goes in and out of her portals and denies, although seldomly so, people she chooses.

If you want to make a set of stats for her that is fine.  It is just easier to use Dicefreaks version as they did all the hard work.  You don't have to have her kill the PCs, which she would do as a DC 208 or 210 character, but it is always a great intimidation factor knowing that someone else is far more powerful than you will ever be.  

I have an encounter in my version where she goes nuts on the PCs, but as a DC 210 in my version, she only fights then for a few rounds.  If the PCs manage to get the upper hand somehow, she submits and requests thier aid, if she kills the PCs, she ponders her alternatives and realizes that she needs to stay in Sigil to hold together the city from the growing sphere of Annihilation and true resurrects the party and offers what aid she can and begs the PCs for help.

I have read source books in the past that state that if she dies, the city goes with her, so making her equal level to the PCs might not be a good thing since it would be simple for them to kill her.  However, I was thinking that it may be cool to add to her definition of stats and have her health tied into the City itself.  So, when every she took too much damage from a hit, a Sigil building would get destroyed as her health would be tied to the realm.  If she took fire damage, some buildings would start to burn.  This puts good PCs in a situation.  Should they continue to attack or try to bargin with her.

I really was just going to have her as a plot device, something to further the progression of the plot and not somehting you attack.  But when I started to write the event, I again reverted to the theory of "If you are going to make a 100th level adventure, throw everything at them while you can, cause you won't be able to again."

As to pushing them too much, it is a shame that I didn't expand on everything for the outline, but I thought it was long enough.  I couldn't include everything, so I put in the major points, which happen to be the most dangerous.  They are plenty of other areas for them to shine through and not be pushed to the limit, but you7 have to push them at some point, otherwise it will be boring.  I use an example from the Original 100th level module H-4 the Throne of Bloodestone.  They had a city of something like 10,000 undead and they intended for you to fight them.  It must have slipped the play testers mind that a simple fly spell blew the whole encounter.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 9, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> There are many infinities in the planes. The Abyss has an infinite number of infinite planes. Most planes are infinitely large - I think the exception is to find a finite plane. And the Spire is infinitely tall, but Sigil apparently floats on top of it (even though it has no top). The Planes are full of these kinds of paradoxes. At least, that's the way they are described "officially" in the Planescape setting, which is an AD&D setting (and which is one I am pretty familiar with).
> 
> That being said, I think it would be cool to have the characters resolve the paradox of climbing an infinitely tall spire to reach an unreachable summit. Perhaps by resolving a logical paradox, or by creating a counter-paradox that suggests a solution. (i.e., wherein they find themselve necessarily at the top of the Spire in order to resolve another paradox...)
> 
> ...




*sigh* :\  Of course I know that some of the plains have infinite boundries, I was trying to put in in perspective of height, not width.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 9, 2005)

Ozmar said:
			
		

> How else do you expect him to learn anything?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Always good to hear from Ozmar the cheerleader   

Anyway, I kind of do this but can be more clear on it.  It was part of the reason I really wanted to have them climb the spire.  It is huge in height and while the DCs for climbing it may be small, the encounters while climbing it in a no magic zone are meant to be very challenging for the original 20th level heroes.  Later, when they have to fight their way back to the spire as 100th level heroes, they find it much easier.  

Again, I have a lot of this in my head, so you won't see it on the outline, but your welcome to come inside if you want.  

Er, bring a flashlight and a few Coronas while your at it


----------



## Sage (Sep 9, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> But when I started to write the event, I again reverted to the theory of "If you are going to make a 100th level adventure, throw everything at them while you can, cause you won't be able to again."



This makes no real sense: If you wan't to throw a powerful creature at your players, then yes, this is your chance, but by the sound of it with regards to the energons and Lady of Pain it would make no real difference weather the characters were 5th level or 100th level, thus defeating the "logic" of your theory.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Sep 10, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> This makes no real sense: If you wan't to throw a powerful creature at your players, then yes, this is your chance, but by the sound of it with regards to the energons and Lady of Pain it would make no real difference weather the characters were 5th level or 100th level, thus defeating the "logic" of your theory.




Hmm, in a sense, yes.  But if you review the outline again, The Lady of Pain and the Energons are really the only over powering elements in the outline.  The rest of it are challenges for 100th level characters, hopefully anyway.   

The Lady of Pain, while powerful, is only really a minor part of the story, even though I scheduled a fight for the PCs.  There is a reason that the encounter with The Lady of Pain is in chapter 7, it is because by then the PCs will be getting to feel very cocky and comfortable in their capacity as 100th level engines of Destruction.  She is there to mainly put things back in place and keep the PCs inline.

As to the Energons, I picture them also as a plot advancement.  Yes, they are more powerful than the PCs, but they are not meant to be fought but guided.  Their power level is there for those brash PCs who like to play hack-n-slash games.  Think of the Energons more like the Beyonderer from the Marvel Comics Secret Wars II series.  He is made up of a whole universe, he is a universe in human form.  He is seeking the meaning of life, mortality, death.  He, at one point, killed Death with the flick of a finger, which in D&D terms would be a being with 5,000 hit points and DR 5,000 damage reduction and immunities to just about everything, just so you get an idea of how powerful Death is in The Marvel universe.  

The Energons don't have the unlimited power of the Beyonderer, but they do have a lot of power as they are now beings of raw power and are tied to the magical event at the top of the Spire.  While the Energons are more powerful than the PCs, the trouble, whether intentionally or not, they cause in the mutli-verse due to their curiosity are encounters that would be appropriate for 100th level characters, or close to it anyway.

Does that make more sense?


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## Sage (Sep 10, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> Does that make more sense?



Ok, it makes more sense now


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## Yair (Sep 10, 2005)

I've been thinking a bit about the plot, and power levels. I think we have a problem that it's really is the NPC's show that the players just happen to crash, the PCs take too much of a reactive and observing role instead of taking the initiative and a proactive role.

We begin, at level 20, with a crises forming and the PCs coming to the rescue. Not a problem, that's the way to start an adventure. 
The crises cannot be successfully dealt with. In fact, it wouldn't be such a big problem without PC/NPC intervention. That is a problem, the PCs actions and failures should have an appropriate impact on the adventure. I am willing to accept the universe crumbling regardless of player actions at this stage as a necessary plot driving theme, but the manner and extent should be dependant on the players' success. 
I suggest having an "Extinction Scale" running throughout the adventure. As time moves on the ES increases (or counts down?), creating more and more devastating effects until it reaches its end point when the multiverse is truly destroyed. If the PCs succeed in interfering with the ritual, or at any other adventure, the ES is not advanced, or advances to a lesser extent.
I think I've seen such a scale in The Apocalypse Stone; I'll dig it up and post a version of it so you can see what I mean.
The two casters should be aiming for (or causing) a more severe catastrophe. PCs actions should alleviate it (potentially).

Following the spire-top adventure, the adventure gets very hazy for me with lots of conflicting versions and storylines. Here are my thoughts on the matter.

I have a problem with what the deities are doing about all of this. In my opinion, deities (following the Divine SRD guidelines; I don't have Faiths and Pantheons with me right now) vary in power from CR ~55 to CR ~150. They are not powerless, and can pretty much outdo the PCs, at least the greater deities. So we need to understand why they aren't acting, or what they ARE doing.
I suggest that they are not uniform in manner or capability. Some, mostly hot-headed and unsubtle, should take direct action and fail - as a warning to the PCs and to indicate guile is needed rather then just mere force. Generally, I think the greater gods and their buddies should not act because they can see the future, and they know they don't need to act - the PCs will take care of things just fine without their intervention, so they can focus on supporting their goals and leave rescuing the world to the heroes of the hour, as usual. The divinities in general should show very little interest in actively solving the problem under this regime; they might take a more active role in exploiting it, though.

I am not sure I like the energons as presented, they are too much of a baby the PCs have to clean after. Their schemes should be more subtle and intentional, allowing the PCs to expose and counter them, slowly leading up to facing off with them as a main BBEG. I am thinking of the Excursians from Nobilis here - subtle plays on meaning that seek to undermine the sense behind reality, schemes that will lead to the downfall of cosmic order.
For example, instead of simply stepping into heaven and nuking things, the energon might be whispering into the good god's ears, subverting them to evil. Slowly, Heaven is turned into Hell by subvertion and growing tyranny. As a result, the distinction between Heaven and Hell is lost and the two planes clash and meld with each other, a step in the unmaking of the mutliverse.

I would add more, but I think I've said enough for one post.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 11, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I've been thinking a bit about the plot, and power levels. I think we have a problem that it's really is the NPC's show that the players just happen to crash, the PCs take too much of a reactive and observing role instead of taking the initiative and a proactive role..



 *In best Yoda voice*   Always with you what can't be done 



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> We begin, at level 20, with a crises forming and the PCs coming to the rescue. Not a problem, that's the way to start an adventure.
> The crises cannot be successfully dealt with. In fact, it wouldn't be such a big problem without PC/NPC intervention. That is a problem, the PCs actions and failures should have an appropriate impact on the adventure. I am willing to accept the universe crumbling regardless of player actions at this stage as a necessary plot driving theme, but the manner and extent should be dependant on the players' success.
> I suggest having an "Extinction Scale" running throughout the adventure. As time moves on the ES increases (or counts down?), creating more and more devastating effects until it reaches its end point when the multiverse is truly destroyed. If the PCs succeed in interfering with the ritual, or at any other adventure, the ES is not advanced, or advances to a lesser extent.
> I think I've seen such a scale in The Apocalypse Stone; I'll dig it up and post a version of it so you can see what I mean.
> The two casters should be aiming for (or causing) a more severe catastrophe. PCs actions should alleviate it (potentially).




I seem to remember reading the Apocalypse Stone, if you can find it and scan and post that section, I too think it would be good to put the PCs on time crunch.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> Following the spire-top adventure, the adventure gets very hazy for me with lots of conflicting versions and storylines. Here are my thoughts on the matter.
> 
> I have a problem with what the deities are doing about all of this. In my opinion, deities (following the Divine SRD guidelines; I don't have Faiths and Pantheons with me right now) vary in power from CR ~55 to CR ~150. They are not powerless, and can pretty much outdo the PCs, at least the greater deities. So we need to understand why they aren't acting, or what they ARE doing.




I know they are not powerless, but a trip to the top of the spire is something that they would not do, regardless of power.  All powers, including divine ranks, fade to nothing as you get closer to the spire until they no longer work.  The Gods won't risk their own life by going into the Spire unless they had no choice.  A few of the brave might, but not most.  Until the magical event happens, no one truely knows that something is going to unravel universe.  The whole point of having the begining of the story take palce at the top of the spire is that the Gods can't predict with their divine sight what is going to happen since it blocks all divine powers.  

Now, the Gods start out the chapter knowing that something is wrong.  All of them can see into the future, just no into the future pretaining to the spire.  Before the magical event takes place, the future is normal.  Once the magical event begins, the Gods can't tell the future, it is unsure.  While this would be troubling for the Gods, their could be anyone of a million reasons why this is happening.  The PCs get involved when the Gods ask the PCs to check out Sigil for clues to the problem.  The Gods won't admit that they can't see the future anymore, but they are occupied elsewhere in the cosmos trying to figure out the riddle themselves.  It is the PCs that discover in Sigil that something is happening on the top of the Spire, which is visible from Sigil.  

Now they have to go and find out what is going on.  The Gods should be, more often than not, should be glad to have the PCs check it out for them.  A few might join in, but as the Spire prohibits magic and divine ranks, mostly fighter type would go. 

That make more sense?   



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I suggest that they are not uniform in manner or capability. Some, mostly hot-headed and unsubtle, should take direct action and fail - as a warning to the PCs and to indicate guile is needed rather then just mere force. Generally, I think the greater gods and their buddies should not act because they can see the future, and they know they don't need to act - the PCs will take care of things just fine without their intervention, so they can focus on supporting their goals and leave rescuing the world to the heroes of the hour, as usual. The divinities in general should show very little interest in actively solving the problem under this regime; they might take a more active role in exploiting it, though.




Well, I think I covered most of this already, but I like the idea of a few of the Gods trying and failing.  One of the versions I wrote had a few of the deities at the top of the Spire and fail to do anything worth while.  I picture some of the Gods trailing around until they get to within a few hundred miles of the Spire and won't go any further because of the failing powers.  I think we could also use the Gods to help the PCs by giving them artifacts, something we haven't really talked about yet, and also in trying to hinder the PCs, like the God of assassins trying to kill them or the God of Trickery trying to steal items or mislead the PCs.



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I am not sure I like the energons as presented, they are too much of a baby the PCs have to clean after. Their schemes should be more subtle and intentional, allowing the PCs to expose and counter them, slowly leading up to facing off with them as a main BBEG. I am thinking of the Excursians from Nobilis here - subtle plays on meaning that seek to undermine the sense behind reality, schemes that will lead to the downfall of cosmic order.
> For example, instead of simply stepping into heaven and nuking things, the energon might be whispering into the good god's ears, subverting them to evil. Slowly, Heaven is turned into Hell by subvertion and growing tyranny. As a result, the distinction between Heaven and Hell is lost and the two planes clash and meld with each other, a step in the unmaking of the mutliverse.




We really are on the same page here.  I only presented a few senerios, the scope of the Energons is vast.  I wanted to portray them as a Yin-n-Yang type of things.  One is the embodiment of evil and the other of good.  They have different ways of looking at the same thing was the way I was trying to portray them in the outline.  

I thought it would be cool to have one start a war in the heavans while the other brought peace to the Blood War with nothing but words.  I like to think of them as children.  I like to think of them as rich spoiled children.  Children whos parents don't care what they do, thus the one picking through the remains of a dead dragon.  When the PCs get there, they don't know how the dragon died, it would be up the PCs imagination to assume that the child did or did not kill it.  Picking through the remains of a dead creature is something that most serial killers have done at one time or another, before moving on to murder.  It is a curiosity, something that children do.  They might later go on a killing spree with their powers, but ultimately they would be tempted to find other ways to do the same thing, like whispering into the ears of the Gods in the celestial heavans and having them start a war with each other with nothing but words.

So, while what I wrote didn't cover everything, I think we are on the same page.

I think we should take everything one section at a time.  Let's work on the opening part and flesh it out.  I think we are closer in thought than you think and once we start to work on it you will agree.  



			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I would add more, but I think I've said enough for one post.




Bring it on   

I'll answer anything you throw at me, but I think we should really just work on one section at a time and I think you will find that we are closer in thought than you think.


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## Yair (Sep 11, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> I seem to remember reading the Apocalypse Stone, if you can find it and scan and post that section, I too think it would be good to put the PCs on time crunch.



I bought it as a pdf. I'll try to find and extract the timeline-thing today.



> I thought it would be cool to have one start a war in the heavans while the other brought peace to the Blood War with nothing but words.



There is a nice symmetry here.



> I think we should take everything one section at a time.  Let's work on the opening part and flesh it out.  I think we are closer in thought than you think and once we start to work on it you will agree.



Alright, then. I'll try to put my thoughts on the prelude in order and post them by evening.


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## Ozmar (Sep 12, 2005)

DM-Rocco said:
			
		

> As to the Energons, I picture them also as a plot advancement.  Yes, they are more powerful than the PCs, but they are not meant to be fought but guided.  Their power level is there for those brash PCs who like to play hack-n-slash games.  Think of the Energons more like the Beyonderer from the Marvel Comics Secret Wars II series.  He is made up of a whole universe, he is a universe in human form.  He is seeking the meaning of life, mortality, death.  He, at one point, killed Death with the flick of a finger, which in D&D terms would be a being with 5,000 hit points and DR 5,000 damage reduction and immunities to just about everything, just so you get an idea of how powerful Death is in The Marvel universe.




Well, not to be picky, but... The Beyonder did destroy Death, but it took a great deal of his "unlimited" power. So much, in fact, that he couldn't bring Death back without a willing human sacrifice to become the new Death. So it took a little more than just a "flick of a finger".

Ozmar the Pedantic Geek


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## Yair (Sep 12, 2005)

The Apocalypse Stone recommends starting in minor events and rumours starting far away, and moving to more immediate and thereatening events; it further recommends augmenting the following ideas with ideas unqiue to the world or setting. The progression is measured in undefined time-units; the recommended unit is a week but they recommend also varying it to suit your needs. Here are the Twelve Steps to Armageddon (page 46):
1.	Something Rotten in the Temple: An important political figure in a disant land has been assasinated, and apparently cannot be raised. 
2.	Have You Heard the News?: The world’s important NPCs seem like other people; for example, a superior in the church hierarchy is now unsure of his or her actions, having lost some spells.
3.	The Great War: With the dissolution of planar connection, order begins to break down everywhere. Insurrections and mobs, warring empires, and more.
4.	Prophecy Fulfilled: An ancient legend or a mythic figure manifests, whose appearance is said to preage the “death of the gods”.
5.	We’re Saved! (Or Are We?): Severance from the Negative Energy Plane makes undead weaker; an ancient undead evil is defeated with surprising ease.
6.	A Change in the Weather: It’s too hot, or snow falls in high summer, or so on.
7.	A Swarm of Vermin: Some area is overrun by verminous creatures who devastate crops, devour all the stores, torment the inhabitants, and the like. The pests could be locusts,  rats, rabid kender, or so on.
8.	The Birds: Normally harmless little birds (sparrows, robins, and so on) suddenly descend in great numbers, killing and eating the populace.
9.	Mass Extinctions: One day, all of a certain creature simply don’t exist anymore. Perhaps all the dwarves vanish, or the sea is empy of fish.
10.	Bring Out Your Dead: The seas and land bring forth the bodies of those lost to them since the taking of the Stone. Now that the world is cut from the Outer Planes, the sould of the dea cannot become petitioners and are trapped as phantoms that wander the land.
11.	A Darkness O’er the Land: With not connection to the Elemental Planes, the world’s components are sliding out of balance. There are midday blackneess that swallows the sun, lightning strikes from a clear day, entire lakes dry up, hails of fire and ice mixed, and the like.
12.	There Goes the Neighborhood: One of the campaign world’s major cities is destroyed in a suitably spectacular way, spawning hysterical stories of the god’s wrath.


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## LordBOB (Sep 13, 2005)

hey Ozmar,

  A post i found earlier about DD and becomming even more powerful as a dragon.  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=148359 ( look at second post)

If DM-ROCCO would allow you to change your character around only slightly i think that this would help with your character.  once again---THANKS FOR BUILDING MY CHARACTER IDEA!!!!!

If your to busy or it would interfer with your items and others like that thn dont worry about it, just thought i would help someone out.

i have really enjoyed reading the modules and characters you all have built. Keep up the good work!

HAVE A NICE DAY!!!!


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## Enthusiastic Student (Sep 14, 2005)

Ok, here he is (I still haven't figured out what that darn animal companion is!):


> *Paragon of Hatred*
> *Race:* Human
> *Class:* Ranger/Shadowdancer
> *Level:* 90/10
> ...


----------



## Sage (Sep 14, 2005)

Hi eric 

I looked at your items and their prices and such and here's what I found, don't worry; it's not _all_ bad news.

*Eric's Items*
Cloak of Epic Resistance +50
-+50 resistance bonus to all saves
-Price: 75,000,000 gp (3 times as much as there are 3 saves, you'll have to split it up)

Mantle of Great Stealth
-+30 bonus to Hide and Move Silently, 
-Continuous blur spell (concealment: 20% miss chance) (CL 3)
-Continuous nondetection spell (CL 20)
- Price: 1.5*90,000 + 1.5*24,000 + 180,000 = 351,000 gp (109,000 gp more expensive)

Shapeshifting Armor of the Celestial Battalion
- light chainmail 
  +25 enhancement bonus to AC, 
  max dex +10, no ACP, AF 10%, Fly at will, Magic Circle against Evil, (616,300 gp)
  Shapeshifting ability from Shapeshifters Armor (400,000 gp)
  Heavy Fortification (+5), 
  Glamered (2,700 gp), 
  Greater Shadow (33,750 gp), 
  Greater Silent Moves (33,750 gp)
- Price: 18,000,000 + 616,300 + 400,000 + 2,700 + 33,750 + 33,750 = 19,086,500 (about 9,850,000 gp more expensive)

Animated Ghostly Heavy Steel Shield of Feline Reflection
- +15 shield enhancement bonus to AC, 
  animated (+2), 
  ghost touch (+3), 
  great reflection (+10), 
  lion shield (1,117 gp)
- Price: 9,001,117 gp 9.005.170 (4,000 gp cheaper, but I haven't calculated the price of the shield in)

Epic Ring of Warding
- Greater Heroism at will (CL 11, duration 11 min)
  Protection from Evil at will, (CL 1, duration 1 min)
  continuous Death Ward, 
  +10 deflection bonus to AC
- Price: 118,800*1.5 + 1,800*1.5 + 112,000*1.5 + 2,000,000 gp = 2,348,900 gp (save 2,371,100 gp)
  If the first 2 spells are continuous (instead of command-word activated) the price is 2,570,000 gp 

Arilon
- +25 Intelligent Spiked Chain, 
  dread[Outsider(Evil)] (+7), 
  ghost touch (+1), 
  holy power (+8), 
  speed )+3), 
  wounding (+2).
(Wis 24 (+7); Int 22 (+6); Ch 16 (+3); AL: NG; 
 Speech and telepathy Common, Elf, Orc, Celestial, Infernal, Draconic, Ignan; Read languages and Read Magic (15,000 gp); 
 PA: weilder does not need to sleep, (6,000 gp)
 weilder does not need to breath, (6,000 gp)
 See Invisibility at will, (6,000 gp)
 Detect Evil at will; (6,000 gp)
 EA: True Seeing at will, (25,000 gp)
 Passwall at will, (25,000 gp)
 Wall of Force 1/day; (25,000 gp)
 AP: Foresight 1/day, (100,000 gp)
 Gate 1/day, (100,000 gp)
 Special Purpose: Slay all evil outsiders, 
 +4 luck bonus saving thows, +4 deflection bonus to AC, SR 30; (50,000 gp)
 Ego 110)
- Price: 42.683.400 (close enough to my calculation that I won't bother 

Boots of Motion
- Doubles speed of wearer and grants evasion,+20 competence bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble, Jumping not limited by wearer's height. 
  continual haste, 
  greater teleport at will, 
  plane shift at will, 
  continuous freedom of movement. 
- Price: 220,000 + 120,000*1.5 + 163,800*1.5 + 81,000*1.5 + 84,000*1.5 = 893,200 (save 10,846,800 gp)

Super Googles of Forsight
- Grants wearer arcane sight at will (CL 5, duration 5 min), 
  greater invisibility at will (CL 7, duration 7 rounds) 
  foresight at will (CL 17, duration 170 min), 
  and read magic at will (CL 1, duration 10 min)
- Price: 275,400 + 27,000 + 50,400 + 1,800 = 330,300 gp (save 6,247,200 gp)

Healthy Amulet of Anonymity
- Grants wearer the effects of a continuous netralize poison, 
  remove disease at will (*changed from continuous, since duration is instantaneous*, 
  continuous nondetection (at caster level 100), 
  continuous mind blank, 
  and can cast greater restoration at will
- Price: 45,000 + 27,000 + 18,000,000 + 120,000 + 163,800 = 18,355,800 ( 3,160,800 gp more expensive)

Iron Belt of Change
- Grants wearer enlarge person at will, (CL 1, duration 1 min)
  iron body at will, (CL 15, duration 15 min)
  reduce person at will, (CL 1, duration 1 min)
  and shapechange at will (CL 17, duration 170 min)
- Price: 1,800 + 216,000 + 1,800 + 275,400 = 495,000 gp (save 7,787,500 gp)


You should look at some of the durations for your "at will" spells, they might be more effective as a continuous effect.

Note to self: add ruin to daggers to facilitate sneak attack. Great idea eric!


----------



## Yair (Sep 14, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> *Eric's Items*
> Cloak of Epic Resistance +50
> -+50 resistance bonus to all saves
> -Price: 75,000,000 gp (3 times as much as there are 3 saves, you'll have to split it up)




Is that right? Look at the pricing of the Cloak of Resistance presented in the Epic SRD, IIRC the cost is for all the saves at once.
I also seem to remember the limit being +45 from our guidelines, but my memory may be failing me.


----------



## Ozmar (Sep 15, 2005)

LordBOB said:
			
		

> hey Ozmar,
> 
> A post i found earlier about DD and becomming even more powerful as a dragon.  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=148359 ( look at second post)
> 
> If DM-ROCCO would allow you to change your character around only slightly i think that this would help with your character.... (snip)




Hey, that don't look too shabby. Thanks, LBOB! 

So, howsabout it, DM-Rocco? You like this class progression? I am not sure I'd use it, but if you don't allow it, I won't waste any time thinking about it.

Ozmar the Lazy Player


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## Ozmar (Sep 15, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Ok, here he is (I still haven't figured out what that darn animal companion is!):




Must be especially tough, since he hates EVERYTHING! 

Ozmar the Amused


----------



## Sage (Sep 15, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Is that right? Look at the pricing of the Cloak of Resistance presented in the Epic SRD, IIRC the cost is for all the saves at once.
> I also seem to remember the limit being +45 from our guidelines, but my memory may be failing me.



Hmm... apparently you're right, though it does seem kinda unbalance IMHO.
Amyway, AFAIK we haven't set a cap on save bonuses, but my character has always had +50 resistance bonus on ref saves, and nobody objected yet.


----------



## Yair (Sep 15, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Hmm... apparently you're right, though it does seem kinda unbalance IMHO.



I agree, perhaps we should seperate the price (like we made x10 for Mantle of Spell Resistance). This will lower saves, perhaps making spellcasting a little more viable.

You're right about the saves, I don't know why I got stuck on +45. Even a +70 is within our guidelines.


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Sep 15, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Hmm... apparently you're right, though it does seem kinda unbalance IMHO.





			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I agree, perhaps we should seperate the price (like we made x10 for Mantle of Spell Resistance). This will lower saves, perhaps making spellcasting a little more viable.




I beg to differ. At 100th level saves which are not around +70 to +100 aren't worth much. At the lower levels the saves are always proportional to your level, but once you hit epic this increase slows severly and to keep up you need to use magic.
Any spellcaster worth his salt at 100th level has maxed out his relevant ability score, otherwise they won't stay epic for long.  
Looking at some of the monsters around are CR a +70 on save is down right pathetic.
Any item with more than +5 resistance bonus to saves already costs x10 because it is epic, so price wise this is still a sizable chunk (e.g. 10 mill) of the 250 mill we have.

With regards to the prices of my items I will get back to you since I don't have the file with my calculations with me. Just for your information i have used:


			
				Solvelior/Sage SRD said:
			
		

> *Multiple Similar Abilities:* For items with multiple similar abilities that don’t take up space on a character’s body use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.




There is no ruling against this and since I've made sure that all the abilities had the same theme I think it is valid. :\ 
_However_ I can see that this has not been brought up to consideration and I will of course change what items need changeing if there is a ruling against this.

Have a nice day


----------



## Yair (Sep 15, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> I beg to differ. At 100th level saves which are not around +70 to +100 aren't worth much. At the lower levels the saves are always proportional to your level, but once you hit epic this increase slows severly and to keep up you need to use magic.
> Any spellcaster worth his salt at 100th level has maxed out his relevant ability score, otherwise they won't stay epic for long.
> Looking at some of the monsters around are CR a +70 on save is down right pathetic.
> Any item with more than +5 resistance bonus to saves already costs x10 because it is epic, so price wise this is still a sizable chunk (e.g. 10 mill) of the 250 mill we have.



The DCs for nonepic spells do not reach such ~100, even with spell focuses and maximized prime ability scores. Epic spell DCs can, barely, reach such heights but it takes all the oomph from their sails.
Saves of around 70 would be more conductive to the play, actually. Against equally-equipped NPCs, anyways. 
A monster's DC is generally 10+1/2 HD+Cha bonus, so they CAN get monstrously high. But they can also be fairly low. We should retrofit the monsters to the PCs once we have them, not make the wizard powerless against the fighter in the party.




> With regards to the prices of my items I will get back to you since I don't have the file with my calculations with me. Just for your information i have used:
> 
> 
> There is no ruling against this and since I've made sure that all the abilities had the same theme I think it is valid. :\
> _However_ I can see that this has not been brought up to consideration and I will of course change what items need changeing if there is a ruling against this.



Personally, I find this rule abominable and rediculous; why should the items be cheaper if they DON'T take up a body slot?! I am in favor of simply not using this option; this way we are staying true to the rules, but not exploiting this loophole.



> Have a nice day



I plan to.


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Sep 15, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Hi eric
> 
> I looked at your items and their prices and such and here's what I found, don't worry; it's not _all_ bad news.
> 
> ...





The item is from the SRD here.  lol



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Shapeshifting Armor of the Celestial Battalion
> - light chainmail
> +25 enhancement bonus to AC,
> max dex +10, no ACP, AF 10%, Fly at will, Magic Circle against Evil, (616,300 gp)
> ...



Have you remembered the stuff I don't have to pay like the enhancement bonus on the AotCB and on ShpA?



			
				Sage said:
			
		

> Arilon
> Ego 110)




*blinks* How did you figure that?  

(after recalculating) Ah... ok. I forgot to figure in the bonuses from special abilites    




			
				Sage said:
			
		

> You should look at some of the durations for your "at will" spells, they might be more effective as a continuous effect.
> 
> Note to self: add ruin to daggers to facilitate sneak attack. Great idea eric!




Thanks Jason! 
When going through your calculations (still don't have that file) I noticed that you don't use the x10 modifer very often. Personally I like that since it gives me more dough to spend, but the SRD states that any item with a market price of above 200.000 gp is epic and therefore warants the x10 modifier. This of course doesn't go for armor and weapons since the tables already take this into account.


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Sep 15, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Personally, I find this rule abominable and rediculous; why should the items be cheaper if they DON'T take up a body slot?! I am in favor of simply not using this option; this way we are staying true to the rules, but not exploiting this loophole.




 
Not take up a body slot? The item takes up a body slot.
The rule simply states that if you have an item with more than one ability, say an item which can cast _Greater Restoration_, _Neutralize Poison_, and _Remove Disease_ all at will, then it will not cost you the same as three different items each granting these abilities, but will cost you the full price of the most expensive ability +  75% of the second most expensive ability + 50% of every ability thereafter.

Of course I may have misread the rule.
I can't say that this is a loophole since I am pretty sure this is what has been used on many wonderous items, but I can understand if it is deemed inapropriate.


----------



## Yair (Sep 15, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Not take up a body slot? The item takes up a body slot.



No, no, no. Let me quote.


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Multiple Similar Abilities*
> For items with multiple similar abilities *that don’t take up space on a character’s body* use the following formula: Calculate the price of the single most costly ability, then add 75% of the value of the next most costly ability, plus one-half the value of any other abilities.



Compare with


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Multiple Different Abilities*
> Abilities such as an attack roll bonus or saving throw bonus and a spell-like function are not similar, and their values are simply added together to determine the cost. For *items that do take up a space on a character’s body each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price.*



So if you stack abilities on an intem that takes up a slot you get a fine, but if you stack them on an item that doesn't you get a discount   
Mind you, items that don't take up a slot cost twice, so the 75% is actually paying the same as a 150% on a slotted item. But the 50% is a discount.


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Sep 15, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> So if you stack abilities on an item that takes up a slot you get a fine, but if you stack them on an item that doesn't you get a discount
> Mind you, items that don't take up a slot cost twice, so the 75% is actually paying the same as a 150% on a slotted item. But the 50% is a discount.




 
ok. I see that you are right. I misread the rule and will correct the prices of the items when I get time. (and that file!)

BTW how does a pseudonatural-paragon-legendary tiger advanced to 48 HD sound as an animal companion? lol


----------



## Sage (Sep 15, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Have you remembered the stuff I don't have to pay like the enhancement bonus on the AotCB and on ShpA?



Well... actually I've docked you for almost the total price of those to items since by my estimate, they're horribly underpriced. The enhancement bonus alone of those items comes above their price.



			
				Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> When going through your calculations (still don't have that file) I noticed that you don't use the x10 modifer very often. Personally I like that since it gives me more dough to spend, but the SRD states that any item with a market price of above 200.000 gp is epic and therefore warants the x10 modifier. This of course doesn't go for armor and weapons since the tables already take this into account.



 actually, this has not gone into any of my calculations and is symptomatic for basically everyones items... whoops   

I won't comment on the 75% stuff as Yair has allready cleared that up for you.

What's the verdict on the saves? I'm routing for the more expensive version.


----------



## Yair (Sep 15, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> What's the verdict on the saves? I'm routing for the more expensive version.



That's two votes... how many do we need? Or will we make DM-Rocco make all the decisions?


----------



## CRGreathouse (Sep 15, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Not take up a body slot? The item takes up a body slot.
> The rule simply states that if you have an item with more than one ability, say an item which can cast _Greater Restoration_, _Neutralize Poison_, and _Remove Disease_ all at will, then it will not cost you the same as three different items each granting these abilities, but will cost you the full price of the most expensive ability +  75% of the second most expensive ability + 50% of every ability thereafter.
> 
> Of course I may have misread the rule.
> I can't say that this is a loophole since I am pretty sure this is what has been used on many wonderous items, but I can understand if it is deemed inapropriate.




I don't think the rule applies to that case.  It's meant to apply to cases where each ability comes from the same pool.  Staffs, for example, can use multiple spells but all spells are powered by the shared charges.  As a result, the second and further spells don't add much power (just flexibility), so the price is lowered.


----------



## CRGreathouse (Sep 15, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> actually, this has not gone into any of my calculations and is symptomatic for basically everyones items... whoops
> 
> I won't comment on the 75% stuff as Yair has allready cleared that up for you.
> 
> What's the verdict on the saves? I'm routing for the more expensive version.




I don't think that the x10 rule is applied like that -- in fact I think it's applied just as you did it.  Look at the lower-priced items in the ELH -- they're clearly not multiplied by 10.  Multiply by 10 for certain effects (enhancement bonus above +6 for stats, +5 for weapons, or +10 for weapon equivilents, etc.), but not across-the-board.

I'd vote for the less-expensive version of the saves items, since it follows the rules in the ELH and the DMG's precident.


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Sep 15, 2005)

Ok her are my items with them math. If I made some mistakes please tell me, i'd like to learn 
(in the following resistance bonuses to saves apply to all saves and have the same cost as in the SRD. Additionally the x10 Epic bonus has been dropped for a number of items.)

Cloak of Epic Resistance +50
-+50 resistance bonus to all saves
-Price: 50*50(bonus squared)*1000(resistance bonus to saves)*10(Epic)= *25.000.000 gp*

Mantle of Great Stealth
-+30 bonus to Hide and Move Silently, 
-Continuous blur spell (concealment: 20% miss chance) (CL 3)
-Continuous nondetection spell (CL 20)
- Price: (item from SRD) = *242.000 gp*

Shapeshifting Armor of the Celestial Battalion
- light chainmail 
+25 enhancement bonus to AC, 
max dex +10, no ACP, AF 10%, Fly at will, Magic Circle against Evil, (616.300 gp)
Shapeshifting ability from Shapeshifters Armor (400.000 gp)
Heavy Fortification (+5), 
Glamered (2.700 gp), 
Greater Shadow (33.750 gp), 
Greater Silent Moves (33.750 gp)
- Price: 
 AofCB: 616.300(base price) - 490.000 (no reason to pay for the +7 bonus since I pay for the +25) = 126.300
ShapA: 400.165 (base price) - 360.000 (no reason to pay for the +6 bonus since I pay for the +25) = 40.165
Glamered: 2.700 gp 
Greater Shadow: 33.750 gp 
Greater Silent Moves: 33.750 gp
Heavy fortification and +25 enhancement bonus: 30*30(bonus squared)*10.000(Epic armor) = 9.000.000
Total Price: *9.236.665 gp*
or
9.000.000 + 616.300 + 400.000 + 2.700 + 33.750 + 33.750 = *10.086.665 gp*

Animated Ghostly Heavy Steel Shield of Feline Reflection
- +15 shield enhancement bonus to AC, 
animated (+2), 
ghost touch (+3), 
great reflection (+10), 
lion shield (1.117 gp) ?
- Price: 
Lions Shield: 9.170(base price) - 4.000(no reason to pay for the +2 since I pay for the +15) = 5.170
Animated, ghost touch, great reflection and +15 enhancement bonus: 30*30*10.000=9.000.000
Total Price: *9.005.170 gp*
or
? = *9,001,117 gp*

Epic Ring of Warding
- Greater Heroism at will (CL 11, duration 11 min)
Protection from Evil at will, (CL 1, duration 1 min)
continuous Death Ward, 
+10 deflection bonus to AC
- Price: 
continuous Greater Herosim: 6(spell level)*11(caster level)*2(1min/level duration)*2000 = 264.000
continuous Protection from Evil: 1(spell level)*1(caster level)*2(1min/level duration)*2000 = 4.000
continuous Death Ward: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*2(1min/level duration)*2000 = 112.000
deflection bonus to AC, +10: 10*10(bonus squared)*2000(deflection bonus to AC)*10(Epic) = 2.000.000
Total Price: *2.380.000 gp*
or
132.000(price for continuous GH)*1.5(total duration is above 10 min) + 4000 + 112,000 + 2,000,000 gp = *2.315.000 gp*

Arilon
- +25 Intelligent Spiked Chain, 
dread[Outsider(Evil)] (+7), 
ghost touch (+1), 
holy power (+8), 
speed )+3), 
wounding (+2).
46*46(bonus squared)*20.000(Epic weapon) = 42.320.000

(Wis 24 (+7); Int 22 (+6); Ch 16 (+3); AL: NG; 
Speech and telepathy Common, Elf, Orc, Celestial, Infernal, Draconic, Ignan; (8.000 gp)
Read languages and Read Magic (3.000 gp); 
PA: weilder does not need to sleep, (6.000 gp)
weilder does not need to breath, (6.000 gp)
See Invisibility at will, (6.000 gp)
Detect Evil at will; (6.000 gp)
EA: True Seeing at will, (25.000 gp)
Passwall at will, (25.000 gp)
Wall of Force 1/day; (25.000 gp)
AP: Foresight 1/day, (100.000 gp)
Gate 1/day, (100.000 gp)
Special Purpose: Slay all evil outsiders, 
+4 luck bonus saving thows, +4 deflection bonus to AC, SR 30; (50.000 gp)
Ego 110)
Intelligent: 360.000
Total Price: *42.680.000 gp*

Boots of Motion
- Doubles speed of wearer and grants evasion,+20 competence bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble, Jumping not limited by wearer's height. 
continual haste, 
greater teleport at will, 
plane shift at will, 
continuous freedom of movement. 
Boots of Swiftness: 256.000(base price)-36.000 (no need to pay for +6 enhancment to dex) -72.000 (no need to pay for haste 3/day since I pay for continuous haste) = 148.000
continuous haste: 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*4(1 round/level duration)*2.000 = 120.000
Greater Teleport at will (i.e. use activated): 7(spell level)*13(caster level)*4(instantaneous duration)*2.000 = 728.000
Plane Shift at will (i.e. use activated): 5(spell level)*9(caster level)*4(instantaneous duration)*2.000 = 360.000
continuous Freedom of Movement: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 84.000
Total Price: *1.440.000 gp*

or

220.000 + 120.000*1,5 + 163.800*1,5 + 81.000*1,5 + 84.000*1,5 = *893.200 gp*

Super Googles of Forsight
- Grants wearer arcane sight at will (CL 5, duration 5 min), 
greater invisibility at will (CL 7, duration 7 rounds) 
foresight at will (CL 17, duration 170 min), 
and read magic at will (CL 1, duration 10 min)
- Price: 
Arcane Sight at will (i.e. use activated): 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 =  60.000
Greater Invisibility at will (i.e. use activated): 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*4(1 round/level duration)*2.000 = 160.000
Foresight at will (i.e. use activeted): 9(spell level)*17(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 459.000
Read Magic at will (i.e. use activated): 0,5(0th level spell)*1(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 1.500
Total Price: *680.500 gp*
or
5.400 + 27.000 + 50.400 + 1.800 = *330.300 gp*

Healthy Amulet of Anonymity
- Grants wearer the effects of a continuous netralize poison, 
remove disease at will (changed from continuous, since duration is instantaneous, 
continuous nondetection (at caster level 100), 
continuous mind blank, 
and can cast greater restoration at will
- Price: 
continuous Neutralize Poison: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 84.000
Remove Disease at will (i.e. use activated): 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*4(instantaneous duration)*2.000 = 120.000
continuous Nondetection: 3(spell level)*100(caster level)*1,5(1 hour/level duration)*2.000*10(Epic because it has a caster level above 20th) = 9.000.000
continuous Mind Blank: 8(spell level)*15(caster level)*0,5(24 hour duration)*2.000 = 120.000
Greater Restoration at will (i.e. use activated): 500(xp)*5(gp/xp)*100(charges per day to be paid for if at will effect)+7(spell level)*13(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 523.000
Total Price: *9.847.000 gp*
or
45.000 + 27.000 + 18.000.000 + 120.000 + 163.800 = *18.355.800 gp*

Iron Belt of Change
- Grants wearer enlarge person at will, (CL 1, duration 1 min)
iron body at will, (CL 15, duration 15 min)
reduce person at will, (CL 1, duration 1 min)
and shapechange at will (CL 17, duration 170 min)
- Price: 
Enlarge Person at will (i.e. use activated): 1(spell level)*1(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 = 4.000
Iron Body at will (i.e. use activated): 8(spell level)*15(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 = 480.000
Reduce Person at will (i.e. use activated): 1(spell level)*1(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 = 4.000
Shapechange at will (i.e. use activated): 9(spell level)*17(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 459.000
Total Price: *947.000 gp*
or
1.800 + 216.000 + 1.800 + 275.400 = *495.000 gp*


----------



## Sage (Sep 16, 2005)

Ok, here's my revision of some of your items, you'll notice that I changed a lot of your "at will" prices since "at will" is command word activated and not use activated.
changes are in bold. I assumed that most of your at will stuff used the command word and thus the cheaper price. Of course you'll have to use an action to activate them, so you might want to make them continuous anyway.


			
				Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Epic Ring of Warding
> - Greater Heroism at will (CL 11, duration 11 min)
> Protection from Evil at will, (CL 1, duration 1 min)
> continuous Death Ward,
> ...



First off, you'll have to pay the x2 modifier for continuous GH since: "If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2"
Secondly, you'll have to pay an additional x1.5 for each of the spells since they are a different type than the deflection bonus, which here is considered the "primary" ability.



			
				Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Boots of Motion



Boots of Swiftness: 256,000(base price)-36,000 (no need to pay for +6 enhancment to dex) *-64,800* (no need to pay for haste 3/day since I pay for continuous haste) = 155,200
continuous haste: 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*4(1 round/level duration)*2.000*1.5 = 180.000
Greater Teleport at will (i.e. *command word activated*): 7(spell level)*13(caster level)*1.800*1.5 = 245,700
Plane Shift at will (i.e. *command word activated*): 5(spell level)*9(caster level)*1.800*1.5 = 121,500
continuous Freedom of Movement: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000*1.5 = 126,000
Total Price: 828,400 gp



			
				Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Super Googles of Forsight



- Grants wearer arcane sight at will (CL 5, duration 5 min),
*continuous* greater invisibility
*continuous* foresight at will (CL 17, duration 170 min),
and read magic at will (CL 1, duration 10 min)
- Price:
Arcane Sight at will (i.e. *command word activated*): 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*1,800 = 27,000
*continuous* Greater Invisibility (i.e. use activated): 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*4(1 round/level duration)*2.000 = 160.000
*continuous* Foresight at will (i.e. use activeted): 9(spell level)*17(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 459.000
Read Magic at will (i.e. *command word activated*): 0,5(0th level spell)*1(caster level)*1.800 = 900
Total Price: 646.900 gp



			
				Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Healthy Amulet of Anonymity



- Grants wearer the effects of a continuous netralize poison,
remove disease at will (changed from continuous, since duration is instantaneous)
continuous nondetection (at caster level 100),
continuous mind blank,
and can cast greater restoration at will
- Price:
continuous Neutralize Poison: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 84.000
Remove Disease at will (i.e. *command word activated*): 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*1.800 = 27.000
continuous Nondetection: 3(spell level)*100(caster level)**1* (1 hour/level duration)*2.000*10(Epic because it has a caster level above 20th) = 6.000.000
continuous Mind Blank: 8(spell level)*15(caster level)*0,5(24 hour duration)*2.000 = 120.000
Greater Restoration at will (i.e. use activated): 500(xp)*5(gp/xp)*100(charges per day to be paid for if at will effect)+7(spell level)*13(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 523.000
Total Price: 6.754.000 gp

*Note:* I've assumed that 1 hour/level is x1 since 10 min/level is x1.5 and 24 hour is x0.5
My previous miscalculation (18,000,000) was probably under the assumption that nondetection was 9th level.



			
				Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Iron Belt of Change



You should change all the durations to continuous (you allready calculated that price). At will effects are command-word activated.
And remember that continuous effect are supressible at will.


----------



## DM-Rocco (Sep 17, 2005)

LordBOB said:
			
		

> hey Ozmar,
> 
> A post i found earlier about DD and becomming even more powerful as a dragon.  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=148359 ( look at second post)
> 
> ...




I'm playing D&D right now, but I'll look it over later.  Most likely I will say no, so don't get your hopes up, but I promise to look it over


----------



## DM-Rocco (Sep 17, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> Is that right? Look at the pricing of the Cloak of Resistance presented in the Epic SRD, IIRC the cost is for all the saves at once.
> I also seem to remember the limit being +45 from our guidelines, but my memory may be failing me.



Right now I don't think anyone has more than a +30 bonus for saves, but this is an issue we may have to address.  With items that give so much in terms of bonuses for saves, you will never fail a saving throw, so a lot of magic would be null and void.  

What do you think about the saving throw bonuses?


----------



## DM-Rocco (Sep 17, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> That's two votes... how many do we need? Or will we make DM-Rocco make all the decisions?




Yes, you will submit to all of my decisions      

Settle down, just kidding.  I'm on my laptop and have large fingers, so I will review the saving throw thing later when I can scroll comfortably at home with a mouse  

But please list your comments on the thing and we will vote on it, hows that


----------



## DM-Rocco (Sep 17, 2005)

Okay, sorry i was gone for a week.  I'll look thing over and offer more comments later


----------



## Enthusiastic Student (Sep 17, 2005)

Sage and I have sat down and gone over my items. The biggest misunderstanding we had was on what "at will" meant. My interpretration was "no action" his interpretation was "command word activated=standard action". In the SRD we found that it was possible to create items which required "no action" even though they were uncommon.
Our next problem was weather or not an instantaneous spell could be made continuous. This one we haven't figured out and would like to hear your thoughts on this.
Anyway, without further ado here are my items:

(in the following resistance bonuses to saves apply to all saves and have the same cost as in the SRD. Additionally the x10 Epic modifier applies as usual with the exception of general items with a market price above 200.000 gp.


Cloak of Epic Resistance +50
-+50 resistance bonus to all saves
-Price: 50*50(bonus squared)*1000(resistance bonus to saves)*10(Epic)= *25.000.000 gp*

Mantle of Great Stealth
-+30 bonus to Hide and Move Silently, 
-Continuous blur spell (concealment: 20% miss chance) (CL 3)
-Continuous nondetection spell (CL 20)
- Price: (item from SRD) = *242.000 gp*

Shapeshifting Armor of the Celestial Battalion
- light chainmail 
+25 enhancement bonus to AC, 
max dex +10, no ACP, AF 10%, Fly at will, Magic Circle against Evil, (616.300 gp)
Shapeshifting ability from Shapeshifters Armor (400.000 gp)
Heavy Fortification (+5), 
Glamered (2.700 gp), 
Greater Shadow (33.750 gp), 
Greater Silent Moves (33.750 gp)
- Price: 
 AofCB: 616.300(base price) - 490.000 (no reason to pay for the +7 bonus since I pay for the +25) = 126.300
ShapA: 400.165 (base price) - 360.000 (no reason to pay for the +6 bonus since I pay for the +25) = 40.165
Glamered: 2.700 gp 
Greater Shadow: 33.750 gp 
Greater Silent Moves: 33.750 gp
Heavy fortification and +25 enhancement bonus: 30*30(bonus squared)*10.000(Epic armor) = 9.000.000
Total Price: *9.236.665 gp*

Animated Ghostly Heavy Steel Shield of Feline Reflection
- +15 shield enhancement bonus to AC, 
animated (+2), 
ghost touch (+3), 
great reflection (+10), 
lion shield (9.170 gp)
- Price: 
Lions Shield: 9.170(base price) - 4.000(no reason to pay for the +2 since I pay for the +15) = 5.170
Animated, ghost touch, great reflection and +15 enhancement bonus: 30*30*10.000=9.000.000
Total Price: *9.005.170 gp*

Epic Ring of Warding
- Continuous Greater Heroism,
continuous Protection from Evil,
continuous Death Ward, 
+10 deflection bonus to AC
- Price: 
continuous Greater Herosim: 6(spell level)*11(caster level)*2(1min/level duration)*2000*1,5(secondary ability) = 396.000
continuous Protection from Evil: 1(spell level)*1(caster level)*2(1min/level duration)*2000*1,5(secondary ability) = 6.000
continuous Death Ward: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*2(1min/level duration)*2000*1,5(secondary ability) = 168.000
deflection bonus to AC, +10: 10*10(bonus squared)*2000(deflection bonus to AC)*10(Epic)*1(primary ability) = 2.000.000
Total Price: *2.570.000 gp*

Arilon
- +25 Intelligent Spiked Chain, 
dread[Outsider(Evil)] (+7), 
ghost touch (+1), 
holy power (+8), 
speed )+3), 
wounding (+2).
46*46(bonus squared)*20.000(Epic weapon) = 42.320.000

(Wis 24 (+7); Int 22 (+6); Ch 16 (+3); AL: NG; 
Speech and telepathy Common, Elf, Orc, Celestial, Infernal, Draconic, Ignan; (8.000 gp)
Read languages and Read Magic (3.000 gp); 
PA: weilder does not need to sleep, (6.000 gp)
weilder does not need to breath, (6.000 gp)
See Invisibility at will, (6.000 gp)
Detect Evil at will; (6.000 gp)
EA: True Seeing at will, (25.000 gp)
Passwall at will, (25.000 gp)
Wall of Force 1/day; (25.000 gp)
AP: Foresight 1/day, (100.000 gp)
Gate 1/day, (100.000 gp)
Special Purpose: Slay all evil outsiders, 
+4 luck bonus saving thows, +4 deflection bonus to AC, SR 30; (50.000 gp)
Ego 110)
Intelligent: 360.000
Total Price: *42.680.000 gp*

Boots of Motion
- Doubles speed of wearer and grants evasion,+20 competence bonus to Balance, Climb, Jump, and Tumble, Jumping not limited by wearer's height. 
continual haste, 
greater teleport at will, 
plane shift at will, 
continuous freedom of movement. 
Boots of Swiftness: (256.000(base price)-36.000 (no need to pay for +6 enhancment to dex) -64.800 (no need to pay for haste [commmand word activated] 3/day since I pay for continuous haste))*1,5(secondary ability) = 232.800
continuous haste: 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*4(1 round/level duration)*2.000*1,5(secondary ability) = 180.000
quickened Greater Teleport at will: 11(spell level)*22(caster level)*1.800*10(Epic)*1(primary ability) = 4.356.000
quickened Plane Shift at will: 9(spell level)*17(caster level)*1.800*1,5(secondary ability) = 413.100
continuous Freedom of Movement: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000*1,5(secondary ability) = 126.000
Total Price: *5.307.900 gp*

Super Googles of Forsight
- Grants wearer continuous arcane sight, 
continuous greater invisibility, 
continuous foresight, 
and continuous read magic
- Price: 
continuous Arcane Sight: 3(spell level)*5(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 =  60.000
continuous Greater Invisibility: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*4(1 round/level duration)*2.000 = 160.000
continuous Foresight: 9(spell level)*17(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 459.000
continuous Read Magic: 0,5(0th level spell)*1(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 1.500
Total Price: *680.500 gp*

Healthy Amulet of Anonymity
- Grants wearer the effects of a continuous netralize poison, 
immunity to all diseases (including supernatural) (7.500 gp)
continuous nondetection (at caster level 100), 
continuous mind blank, 
and can cast greater restoration at will
- Price: 
continuous Neutralize Poison: 4(spell level)*7(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000*1,5(secondary ability) = 84.000
effect from Phylactary of Health(immunity to diseases [including supernatural]): 7.500*1,5(secondary ability) = 11.250
continuous Nondetection: 3(spell level)*100(caster level)*1,5(1 hour/level duration)*2.000*10(Epic because it has a caster level above 20th) = 9.000.000
continuous Mind Blank: 8(spell level)*15(caster level)*0,5(24 hour duration)*2.000*1,5(secondary ability) = 180.000
Greater Restoration at will (i.e. use activated): (500(xp)*5(gp/xp)*100(charges per day to be paid for if at will effect)+7(spell level)*13(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000)*1,5(secondary ability) = 784.500 
Total Price: *10.059.750 gp*

Iron Belt of Change
- Grants wearer continuous enlarge person,
continuous iron body,
continuous reduce person,
and continuous shapechange
- Price: 
Enlarge Person at will (i.e. use activated): 1(spell level)*1(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 = 4.000
Iron Body at will (i.e. use activated): 8(spell level)*15(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 = 480.000
Reduce Person at will (i.e. use activated): 1(spell level)*1(caster level)*2(1 min/level duration)*2.000 = 4.000
Shapechange at will (i.e. use activated): 9(spell level)*17(caster level)*1,5(10 min/level duration)*2.000 = 459.000
Total Price: *947.000 gp*

Shirt of Physical Excellence
- +30 enhancement bonus to Str, Dex and Con
- Price: *27.000.000*

Headband of Mental Acuity
-+30 enhancement bonus to Int, Wis and Cha
- Price: *27.000.000*

Amulet of Epic Natual Armor +10
-+10 natural armor bonus to AC
- Price: *2.000.000*

Ring of Universal Energy Immunity 
- Grants wearer immunity to fire, sonic, cold, acid, and electricity
- Price: *2.160.000*

Bracers of Arcane Protection
- Grants wearer Spell Resistance 112
- Price: *10.000.000*

Hugin
-+15 Spiked Chain, anarchic, brilliant energy, everdancing, speed
- Price: *20.480.000*

Munin
-+15 axiomatic, everdancing, defending
- Price: *13.520.000*

Dagger of Ruin
- +7 dagger, ignors damage reduction and can crit contructs and objects
- Price: *1.000.302*

Clear Spindle Ioun Stone
- Sustains wearer without food
- Price: *4.000*

Rod of the Path
- This rod serves as an aid to trailblazing and travel. It grants the wielder a +30 enhancement bonus on Wilderness Lore checks for tracking and Intuit Direction checks. The handle of the rod is hollow, functioning like a telescope. When the wielder peers through it, the limits of vision are three times normal (and spotting distances for encounters are tripled). In addition, the telescoping handle enables the wielder to view things as though affected by a true seeing spell. The rod also has the following powers. Map: Three times per day a section of the rod unrolls like a scroll from a tube, revealing a map of the surrounding area, centered on the location of the rod. The area shown on the map covers an area as small as 50 feet in radius to as large as 24 miles in radius, zooming in or out with a set of command words. The map reveals natural topography and all types of structures (even hidden ones), but it will not show the location of creatures.
Passage: Three times per day, this power allows the wielder and up to five others in a 20-foot radius to move unhindered through natural plant growth or bodies of water (as per the freedom of movement spell).
Bridge: Once per day, this power allows the user to create a 5-foot-wide, 40-foot-long stone cause-way across chasms and canyons. The bridge created lasts for 1 hour.
Pass without Trace: Once per day, this power can be used on the wielder and twenty others, for 21 minutes. It is otherwise as the spell of the same name (caster level 24th).
- Price: *625.000*

Bracelets of the Peerless Steed
- These bracelets magically adhere to the anckles of any creature. Anyone riding the creature gains a +10 competence bonus on Ride checks and is treated as having ranks in the appropriate Ride skill (and thus does not take the -5 penalty for riding an unfamiliar mount). The horseshoes grant the creature (or its rider, as appropriate) the effects of the Trample, Ride-By Attack, and Spirited Charge feats. The wearer of the bracelets gains spell resistance 32 against enchantment effects. In addition, the ground speed of the creature wearing the bracelets doubles. 
- Price: *217.000*

Total gold used: *209.735.287 gp*


----------



## Yair (Sep 17, 2005)

Enthusiastic Student said:
			
		

> Sage and I have sat down and gone over my items. The biggest misunderstanding we had was on what "at will" meant. My interpretration was "no action" his interpretation was "command word activated=standard action". In the SRD we found that it was possible to create items which required "no action" even though they were uncommon.
> Our next problem was weather or not an instantaneous spell could be made continuous. This one we haven't figured out and would like to hear your thoughts on this.
> Anyway, without further ado here are my items:



I didn't go over your items, because... well, it's a lot of work and I trust Sage   
Regarding making instantenous spells continuous, I have a long standing policy as a DM to allow them per-day activations only. 
I also tend to agree with Sage on command word=standard action, but I allow "no action" using  the x2000 guidelines (the x1800 is for command word activation, the x2000 as continuous or free action).


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## CRGreathouse (Sep 17, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I didn't go over your items, because... well, it's a lot of work and I trust Sage
> Regarding making instantenous spells continuous, I have a long standing policy as a DM to allow them per-day activations only.
> I also tend to agree with Sage on command word=standard action, but I allow "no action" using  the x2000 guidelines (the x1800 is for command word activation, the x2000 as continuous or free action).




I concur with Sage and Yair on the above 3 points (and with Yair's "no action" understanding as well).


----------



## Sage (Sep 18, 2005)

Yair said:
			
		

> I also tend to agree with Sage on command word=standard action, but I allow "no action" using  the x2000 guidelines (the x1800 is for command word activation, the x2000 as continuous or free action).



This is actually the point; if activating the item is "no action" it can be done an infinite times per round, not to mention activating multible different effect at the same time. If it's a free action, only one activation can be done in a round.
My interpretation:

No action: only when activation os allready part of another action. e.g. striking with a sword, jumping, etc.

Free action: supressing or subsuming a continuous effect. Activating a quickened spell.

Standard action: basically everything else, specifically non-quickened spells.

Anyway we basically sorted it out with his items, but the discussion is still an interesting one.


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## Yair (Sep 18, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> This is actually the point; if activating the item is "no action" it can be done an infinite times per round, not to mention activating multible different effect at the same time. If it's a free action, only one activation can be done in a round.
> My interpretation:
> 
> No action: only when activation os allready part of another action. e.g. striking with a sword, jumping, etc.
> ...



:nods: I completely agree with your interpretation.


----------



## Sage (Sep 18, 2005)

*Changes to Sonasti's magic items*
Added ruin ability to smith and wessen: allows them to ignore damage reduction. Allows critical hits (and by logical extension sneak attacks) on objects and constructs)

Changed caster level of Heal spell in ear-ring of contingent healing to 100 so as to have a chance to overcome my SR.

Character sheet attached.


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 23, 2005)

LordBOB said:
			
		

> hey Ozmar,
> 
> A post i found earlier about DD and becomming even more powerful as a dragon.  http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=148359 ( look at second post)
> 
> ...




Okay, I looked over the class and I have two comments.  One, I want to keep the classes simple, trying not to stray from the base classes as much as possible to gain a certain measure of control of what is going ina dn what is going out.

Two, are you nuts?  A full dragon?  Sheeze  

Seriously though, even though this is a 100th level module, we have to have limits and that breaks it.  Although, if you really really love dragons, take druid levels and then take Epic Feat Colossal Wild Shape


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 23, 2005)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> I concur with Sage and Yair on the above 3 points (and with Yair's "no action" understanding as well).



I concur with this, although, anything offensive, like a fireball, I would prefer to see as a standard action, just like casting a spell.  Anything that would be a quickin spell effect, I would like to see a much higher price on it and if it is an immeadiate action item, unless there are established rules for this, I would like to see something much more pricey.

Side note:  I did find a passage that stated that at will powers are standard actions  

Never doubt the power of Sage


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## DM-Rocco (Sep 23, 2005)

Okay, juggling a few things right, my son's birthday, my birthday, extra hours at work and other things, so sorry I haven't been throwing in my two cents lately.

My friend, Evil DM, has offically given up on making a 100th level spell caster, mage or cleric.  He sat down for over 20 hours and it almost made him insane.  There is just way too much for him to handle, and he lives and breathes this stuff.

So, who wants to pick up the mantle and run with it?

Also, I see talk of +50 enhancement bonus items for saving throws.  I am against this and would like to see nothing over +30.  With that said, I think that perhaps we should really not have any over +20.  I say this cause otherwise everyone will make all saving throws.  I think that is the conclusion we came too.  However, I am agian throwing this to you guys, what do you think?

I am going to revise the begining information and add in the starting event or plot hooks.  Anything you guys want me to add in?  We should add a section of epic rules that we will play with, like three deaths and your out or 20 is not an automatic hit, you just roll again and add the results, that kind of thing.  The alternate rules for epic play.  We should have a guildeline for what we will use for when we test it and offer them as a suggestion for play to the DM.  So, anything we should add?


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## Sage (Sep 23, 2005)

Ok, here's everyone's saves:

*Sonasti's saves with +50 allowed (with +20)*
_Fort:_ +78 (+78)
_Ref:_ +124 (+94)
_Will:_ +77 (+77)

*Unbreakeble's saves with +50 allowed (with +20)*
_Fort:_ +99 (+99)
_Ref:_ +98 (+88)
_Will:_ +89 (+89)

*Scion of eternity's saves with +50 allowed (with +20)*
_Fort:_ +105 (+95)
_Ref:_ +104 (+94)
_Will:_ +104 (+94)

*Paragon of hatred's saves with +50 allowed (with +20)*
_Fort:_ +110 (+80)
_Ref:_ +110 (+80)
_Will:_ +104 (+74)

And here are example DCs:


			
				Lady of Pain (CR 208) said:
			
		

> As a free action, up to 50 times per round, the Lady can banish a creature into a small demiplane of her creation (this effect can be resisted with a *DC 150* Will save).
> Spells Per Day (Levels 0-30): 6/15/15/15/14/14/14/14/13/13/8/8/7/7/7/7/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/4/4/4/3/3/3/3/2/2/2/2; save *DC 47 + level*.





			
				King Ghidorah (CR 133) said:
			
		

> Affected creatures must succeed on a *DC 93* Will save or become shake





			
				Talos (CR 128) said:
			
		

> Reflex save *DC 82* to avoid





			
				Godzilla (CR 120) said:
			
		

> Fortitude save for half damage: *DC 106*.
> Affected creatures must succeed on a *DC 94* Will save or become shaken





			
				Godly Air Elemental (CR 106) said:
			
		

> An affected creature must succeed at a Reflex save (*DC 176*) when it comes into contact with the whirlwind or take 4d8+13 points of damage.





			
				Io (CR 97) said:
			
		

> Magic items (such as potions) and items in a creature’s possession must succeed on a Will save (*DC 87*) or become fouled.
> Psionic powers: Manifester level 99th; save *DC 86 + power level*.
> Spell-like abilities: Caster level 99th; save *DC 86 + spell level*.
> _Note: The DCs are exactly the same for the CR 86 Io_





			
				Lady of Pain (CR 85) said:
			
		

> Those who fail a Fortitude save *DC 73* die immediately.
> Caster level 80th; *DC 32 + spell level*.





			
				Pale Night said:
			
		

> All creatures within 600 feet of Pale Night must succeed in a *Will save 56*.
> victims caught in the wave may attempt a Reflex save *DC 48* for half damage.
> Fortitude save *DC 56* negates.
> These abilities are as spells cast by a 61st level Sorcerer (save *DC 29 + spell level*).





			
				The Shadow (CR 80) said:
			
		

> Caster level 50th; save *DC 48 + spell level*.





			
				Demogorgon (CR 78) said:
			
		

> All creatures within 600 feet of Demogorgon must succeed in a *Will save 75*.
> victims caught in the wave may attempt a Reflex save *DC 71* for half damage.
> These abilities are as spells cast by a 102nd level Sorcerer (save *DC 27 + spell level*).





			
				Unbreakable said:
			
		

> On critical make Fortitude save (*DC 100*) or die





			
				Scion's Memento Mori epic spell said:
			
		

> Fortitude save (*DC 105*) or die




*Summary:* Basically, putting a limitation or not on saves wouldn't matter since all the monsters would have to be adjusted to the group anyway; either the DCs are too hight or too low, with the latter being the norm. With a restriction of maximum +20 save DCs between 90 and 110 would be within most d20 rolls.


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## CRGreathouse (Sep 29, 2005)

Here's my newest giant list of super-epic monsters and epic material.


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## Yair (Sep 29, 2005)

I'm kinda preoccupied now with work and other roleplaying shticks and life in general, so I can't add much. I'll resume working on this project when the dust settles in, which should be in two months or so.

Sorry.

Yair


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## DM-Rocco (Oct 2, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Ok, here's everyone's saves:
> 
> *Sonasti's saves with +50 allowed (with +20)*
> _Fort:_ +78 (+78)
> ...




Hmm, okay, I just remember reading others thoughts on the subject and thought they might be too high.  Thanks for compling data though


----------



## DM-Rocco (Oct 2, 2005)

Okay, here is a rework of the intro and stuff.  Rread areas are inserts fro the Dungeon guidelines for writing so you can compare how they do it to what we have.  Feel free for comments.

Introduction 
	The adventure’s introduction should begin with a “teaser,” a short paragraph that summarizes the theme and plot of your adventure and serves as a hook to catch the reader’s interest. Think of the teaser as your best chance to catch a DM’s eye, and come up with something representative of your adventure that encourages the reader to read the rest of it.
	The second paragraph should indicate what game system the adventure utilizes (at this time, DUNGEON publishes adventures for DUNGEONS & DRAGONS only, but you should still indicate this), what level of characters the adventure is designed for, and what game world the adventure is set in. If the adventure is tied to a specific location in a world, indicate where the adventure takes place. If your adventure utilizes material from non-core books like Complete Warrior or Fiend Folio, you don’t need to mention this here; simply mention usage as it appears in the text with a short sentence.


Introduction

	The winds buffeted horribly this high up the Spire. By rights, they should have thrown the old Wizard to an impossibly long plummet, bereft of his magic as he was. But the wizened old man did not reach level 100 without some cunning. 
	“Forward! Up!” he bellowed at the great beast he rode, though he doubted it could hear him over the wind's howl. Prodding it forward, he slowly made his way up the Spire at the center of the Heartlands, climbed the very heart of the multiverse. Haggard, cold, and wind-shorn he reached his destination. The No-Priest was already waiting for him at the top.
	“You look uncomfortable” the No-Priest chuckled. “Unbuckle and come sit with me, enjoy the view.”
	The Wizard frowned. “We have work to do, this is no silly matter.”
	“Come now,” the No-Priest was smiling, but there was a hint of steel in his eyes. 	“You should at least take one last look at what you're about to destroy.”
They sat upon the Spire, watching the Heartlands below them spreading out into the horizon, into all the planes of existence. Above them the lights of Sigil were just barely visible, but they could almost see the fine net of portals it wove, poised like spider at the center of the multiverse. 
	After a long time, the Wizard shifted. “Come on” he said, “we have a multiverse to destory.”
	Upon the spire at the center of everything, where even a God's power is quelled, the two impossibly wove their spell, and the foundations of existence begun to crumble.

It's The End Of The Cosmos As We Know It is a Dungeons and Dragons adventure for level 100 characters, with a prelude for level 20 or higher characters that will culminate in increasing the character's level to 100. It is not set in any particular world, and could be easily worked into any campaign where the Spire may exist. Although it is designed to be usable as part of an ongoing campaign, it is primarily designed as a one-shot adventure. The adventure can be run with your own characters, but the pregenerated characters that were used in play test are provided and recommended. During the adventure the characters should gain enough XP to raise several levels, and downtime will be provided for the manufacture of magic items or spell research. The whole adventure is designed to take about [??] 4 to 6 hour sessions to complete.
__This adventure uses the epic level rules as defined in the System Reference Document, which are a mixture of the rules in the 3.5 Dungeon Master's Guide and additional content from the 3.0 Epic Level Handbook (ELH). It was necessary to impose some further guidelines and interpretations, within these rules, as otherwise the variability in power level is too extreme to accommodate (see Character Creation, below). 
__In addition to the core and epic rules, the adventure uses rules from Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, and a few additions from the Book of Vile Darkness, the Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Epic Insights section from Wizards of the Coast's website. Faiths and Pantheons is all but required for the statistics of some deities, but for the most part the portions used from the other books can be understood without them or fairly easily replaced. 
__This is a one-shot adventure, produced with no intention of making a sequel. As such, it accepts the epic rules as they are, without making compromises or changes that may enhance a longer campaign. If you are interested in continuing play in high epic levels, the Immortals Handbook from UpperKrust and CRGreathouse should make for fine reading material if it is published in your lifetime. INSERT WEB ADDRESSES

Preparation
To play this adventure, you must have access to the core and epic rules. Access to Deities and Demigods, Faiths and Pantheons, The Book of Exalted Deeds, The Book of Vile Darkness, and the occasional other sourcebook used can be useful, but lack of these books can be circumvented with less or more work. 
__The adventure may begin with “lowly” level 20 characters, but turns to level 100 fairly quickly. The players can use the pregenerated characters, which are provided at level 20 and 100, or create their own characters. Making a level 100 character is great fun, but very time consuming. Make sure that you are conversant with the epic rules before setting down to make one, and be prepared to dedicate four hours or more to character generation. It is imperative that the characters will be created in accordance with the character creation guidelines below, or the adventure will need to be retrofitted on the fly to accommodate them.

Character Creation
In order to create an adventure for level 100 characters, you have to impose some limits during character creation. The variability is otherwise so high that no single adventure would be able to match the party's capabilities. Even with the following limitations you can easily “brake” the game, so when creating a character try to keep her capabilities in line with the pregenerated characters provided. Significantly more or less powerful characters would require the DM to significantly modify the adventure to fit the party, which at this power level entails a lot of work. You should be especially leery of exploiting “combos” or loopholes to achieve optimal tactics; this is especially true for spellcasters. With the right choice of spells and feats, for example, a level 100 wizard can do in excess of 1,000,000 hit points of damage in one round. The adventure does not cater to such power levels.
__The primary statistics that the adventure is built to expect are as follows:
* HP should be around 3000 for front-line combatants, 1000 to 2000 for secondary combatants and other characters.
* An AC of 60 is needed to have any chance of being useful against even non-combatants. ACs of 100 to 110 are needed to function in combat, with 150 or so needed for a decent chance to evade attacks from front-line combatants.
* An Attack bonus of +100 or so is needed for secondary combatants, and frontliners can reach +140 or so. 
* The adventure assumes that most characters will have 50% concealment, and that they will be able to overcome most sources of concealment.
* Saving throws are assumed to be around +100, with +70 or so being weak and +135 or so being possible.
* Spell DCs of non-epic spells reach 70 or so, so saving throws against non-epic spells will often succeed. Monsters are designed and chosen with this in mind.
* Skills are assumed to reach up to +200 to +300 in the character's focus. The adventure tries to make use of all skills, including Knowledge and Perform skills, Diplomacy and Bluff, Sense Motive, Hide and Move Silently, Listen and Spot, Search and Disable Device, Open Lock, Spellcraft, Concentration, Climb and Jump, and more.
* A reasonable optimal damage/round output is around 1000 hp/round, around 3000 hp/round is deadly and below 500 hp/weak is weak.

The pregenerated characters do not use Level Adjusted races or templates. Some of these may be problematic at high levels, in particular the Paragon, Monster of Legend, or Magister templates. Consider carefully before allowing non-PHB races or templates whether their effect at level 100 is problematic; this is often the case with templates that improve based on HD.
__Only the core and epic rules were used for the pregenerated characters. You may include other material, the exemplars were kept core mainly for simplicity. Of course, we strongly discourage including material that is not balanced by Level Adjustment, such as divine ranks and some 3.0 templates.

Here are the rules for actually making your level 100 character:
Choose your Ability Scores from the Elite Array, or use a 30 point buy (DMG, page ??). All abilities automatically benefit from a +5 inherent bonus across the board. A character may be of any age.
__Your character may have one base class, one prestige class, and one epic prestige class. This is just to keep things simple for both the player and the DM. You should avoid dipping into several classes to cherry pick class special abilities, if you enter a class pursue it to a significant amount (usually to its non-epic end, at least). Cherry picking will just increase your power beyond what's appropriate for your level, and unbalance the adventure. You are limited to the core and epic rules and classes unless your DM says otherwise; think carefully before allowing non-core classes.
__When calculating skill ranks keep a close eye on your Intelligence. Skill ranks are not retroactive. You can decide when your character gets his +5 inherent bonus to Intelligence, but it can't be before level 15.
__Use average rolls for hit points (maximum at level 1) and other variables. There is a lot of die rolling, the adventure is designed for average die rolls. (In fact, there is so many die that it's not reasonable that you'll get a significantly different result from rolling them.)
__Do not take the Leadership feat. The main problem with this is the cohort, as running two high-epic PCs is very difficult. Note that we do have one pregenerated character with this feat - his cohort was intentionally made as an epic commoner to alleviate this problem (and for fun).
__You have 250,000,000 gp to purchase personal gear. (A level 100 character should actually have 277,777,770 gp; assume the rest goes to the inherent bonuses, supporting a few kingdoms, and so on.) All magic items in the DMG and the ELH are allowed. Custom magic items can, and should, be created to fit the character; use the following guidelines:
* No single item should exceed a 50,000,000 gp market price.
* Increasing an ability score is capped at a +30 enhancement bonus. Only enhancement (and inherent) bonuses are allowed.
* Skills increases are capped at +100 competence. Only competence bonuses are allowed.
* Weapons are capped at a +50 total bonus equivalent, with up to +25 enhancement bonus and +25 in special abilities.
* Spell Resistance is capped at 112. SR items cost x10, like other epic items and not like the Mantle of Spell Resistance suggests.
* No custom item should not provide divine, sacred, morale, or other miscellaneous bonuses; leave those to spells. Armor class should be increased by armor (and enhancement), shield (and enhancement), natural armor (and enhancement), and deflection bonuses; saves should be increased with resistance bonuses; and so on.
You can deviate from these guidelines, but try not to stray too far. For example, the epic commoner has a multitude of epic classes, but that's because there is no Epic Commoner class. The most important thing is to keep the characters within the expected power level of the adventure.
__When designing PC epic spells, keep their power level in mind. In general, mitigating factors should not be used. The exception are weak spells, such as Energy or Destroy spells, that need the boost, and cases where it is thematically appropriate and not overpowering. Some seeds should not be used to their extreme (e.g. Armor and Fortify).

The fastest way to generate a level 100 character is as follows:
* Make a single-classed level 20 character, using the Elite Array (15,14,13,12,10,8) and the core-rules only, with no gear.
* Add a +40 epic bonus to your base attack (but do not increase iterative attacks!) and saves. 
* Add 20 level-based ability increases, and a +5 inherent bonus to each ability score.
* Add 27 epic (or non-epic, if you choose) feats, plus more based on your class: 40 for an epic Fighter, 26 for a Cleric or Paladin, 20 for a Rouge or Wizard or Sorcerer, ... This can take time; to speed it up, you can focus on taking one or two types of stacking feats (such as Improved Spell Capacity or Improved Sneak Attack) and only take a few other feats to complement it; this will lower the number of choices, and hence the time.
* Add your class's special abilities. Rouges add +50d6 sneak attack and +30 against traps, ...
* Set aside 250,000,000 gp and whittle it away by acquiring magic items. Set your sights on the power levels described above. This can take a lot of time, so if you want to keep things simple just focus on getting ability score enhancement, competence, resistance, natural armor, and deflection bonuses to bring you to the needed power level, add in a weapon or two, and a mantle of SR 112, ring of universal energy immunity, and shield of greater reflection. You're set. 
* Decide on when your Int was raised and by how much, if at all, and calculate skill ranks appropriately. Allocate skill ranks according to your class skill list.
Put it all together, and congratulations – you have a (single-classed) level 100 character in a (relatively) short time.

Why play/design a 100th level module?
It has been asked many time of us, “Why would you play a 100th level module?” For us the answer is simple: because we can. The module originally started as a conversion of the original 100th level module H4 - The Throne of Bloodstone. H4 was designed under first edition rules, where the main difference between a 20th level player and a 100th level player was hit points. It quickly became clear that the module could never be converted into 3.5 for one main reason, hit points are the lest of things that a 100th level 3.5 character gains over 80 epic levels.
__We quickly came together as a group of PCs and DMs to design 3.5s version of a 100th level module.
__This module is not for everyone. Many have told us that they would never play in such a module, however, many who have said they would not play in a 100th level module also stated that they don’t play D&D above level 9 because the game gets too crazy for them. If you like low magic or low level gaming, then this module is not for you. If you love stories of Gods and mortals who can do fantastic feat, then this may be for you. The ELH has many skills, feats and spells that can’t be used until much higher levels. This module is designed to exploit the seldom-used abilities of the ELH and push the limits of the game to the max.

Adventure Background 
This section provides the DM with a clear, brief summary of events leading up to the adventure, including
any pertinent historical details and villainous machinations. The main thing to keep an eye on in this
section is length. If you can’t present an adventure background in 500 words, it’s probably too complex
and should be simplified. As a general guideline, the adventure background should be no more than 5% of the adventure’s total length.

Adventure Background 
	The Spire is the heart of the outer planes.  It resides in the center of the Out Lands underneath the ring of the City of Doors, Sigil, the self proclaimed center of the planes.  Magic fails the closer you get to the Spire until even the Gods lose all divine powers at the base of the Spire.  It seems an unlikely place for two spell casters to make a home, but that is exactly what has happened.
	Two spell casters, one a cleric and the other a wizard, both of epic power, have spent eons in study at the home they built at the base of the Spire.  Shielded from the prying eyes of the Gods by the protection of the Spire the strived for a means to ultimate power through the destruction of the planes.  
	Through careful study they have found a way to activate magical events (as detailed in Dungeon Master’s Guide II) in magic dead zones.  The base of the Spire still prevents the use of their powers, but they have found out that magical events can be used while at the top of the spire, if only for a limited time.  As the adventure begins, they are at the top of the Spire and have started the first of many magical events. They have burned their house at the base of the spire to protect against those who would eventually come to investigate the events at the top of the spire.  They also have packs with many creatures of the Out Lands to prevent others from flying to the top of the Spire.

Adventure Synopsis 
This section provides a clear, concise summary of the adventure for the DM. Outline surprises and plot
twists here, not during the course of the adventure. Introduce key NPCs here, and indicate both what the
central conflict of the adventure is and detail the most likely way the PCs can resolve this conflict.

Adventure Synopsis 
Chapter one - the Gods in peril
The story starts with the party receiving a warning from there Gods so strong that it wakes your character, whether you are sleeping, in a coma or even from the grave. A wizard and cleric of surprising power have evaded the premonitions of the Gods by plotting and planning events for a powerful magical event. They evaded the divine power of the Gods ability to see into the future by planning for this event at the base of the Spire in the Outlands where the God cannot see. They have climbed to the top of the Spire and began their magical event by creating a Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra. For those of you not familiar with Magical Events, see chapter 3 of the DMGII.
The Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra is just the beginning, but they have also started a new magical event, an Elemental Swarm (new one I made up for this adventure) that prohibits magic from those not protected in a certain way, and as it is a unique event, only the wizard and the cleric have this power, not even the Gods understand it. The top of the Spire is also the site of a circle with the Spirit of Nature’s Rage. The burning eye is slowly growing, so those who teleport to Sigil find the city in flames and also discover that the Lady of Pain is occupied trying to hold the city together from the vast amount of magical energy forming on the Spire tip. 
No way can be found from Sigil to get to the top of the Spire, you have to go to the Outlands and travel from the outer most part of the plane towards the center to the Spire. Every God is concerned and has called a truce of sorts, so every race is represented and all of the Gods have gathered in the Outlands to try and come to a solution. The progressive failings of magic as you get closer to the Spire means that most won’t get to close and most of the Gods will not come closer than 301 miles from the spire as they will lose their divine ranks. A few will deem this threat powerful enough to venture to the top of the Spire itself, however.
Once the party over comes the problems to get to the top of the Spire, should be fun without magic, a third magical events begins. The party sees the wizard and the cleric standing under the Burning Eye of Al-Ghantra on either side of a Sphere of Annihilation . There may or may not be an encounter where the evil doer’s can monologue and/or fight, but before the party gets to crazy, the wizard and cleric complete the next magical event and open a Consuming Vortex of Traal right behind the Sphere of Annihilation. The area if flooded with Negative and Positive energy. Once a few of the Gods enter the area, something unexpected occurs, the Magical event of the Elemental Swarms falters and an Elder - Mega Xag-Ya and an Elder - Mega Xeg-Yi, (energons page 168 of the MotP), enter the area and once they see each other they converge on each other and explode, causing the wizard and the cleric to lose control of the Sphere of Annihilation which gets sucked into the Consuming Vortex of Traal and then pulls in the Burning Eye of Al-Ghautra, causing a massive explosion across the cosmos.
Confused yet? It really isn’t that complicated, just sounds like it.
Chapter 2 - Strange Days
The party is flooded with power, both from the Gods and the energy of all the planes combined. Basically they are recreated, atom by atom, but on the plus side, for the time being, they have the power of 100th level characters, yeh . They can also temporarily be a different race, remember they are parts of many different races, but no divine ranks. Now they make their 100th level character. Please no leadership feats 
The Wizard and Cleric were trying an experiment but with the Gods interfering, they created a rift in the cosmos and destroyed the whole of the current cosmos, throwing everyone, or mostly everyone, into an alternate cosmos. 
Adventure hook, you must figure out how to reverse the effects of the Magical Event and restore your old Cosmos or have the deaths of a googolplex beings on your conscious. Deal with that. Parts of this chapter can deal with some fun differences between the old Cosmos and this one, like some old enemies are now your friends and your best friend is a back stabber.
Chapter 3 - The Ajah Armory
As a 100th level guy, you have the same gear you did when you were 20th level, plus a few extra items, but we will have rules for continuing to pimp out your current 20th level gear, this will reduce the massive power or way to much disposable income of a 100th level character, some anyway. Also, you will have access too The Ajah Armory. In this chapter you have a run in with Ay-Gax, a small child, is wondering around the planes, or other location. He is really the Xag-Ya, but he does not know it, and the party should not at this point either. He is healing the sick and curing maladies in Limbo and forces the demons and devils to stop the blood war. He eventually teleports to Sigil
The Ajah Armory
Created under the working name of recursive co-terminal multi-functional all terrain interdimensional closet of useful things by Mizledorf, the Patron Saint of Gnomes Everywhere, Founding Liege of Kirpah Nasmong- a Gnomish Utopia (Male Celestial Gnome/Bard 33, Illusionist 33, Tinker 33/N). One day Mizledorf realized the name was too long (everyone else would just tune him out when he started to say "recursive"), and he said "Ah hah!" with great triumph. However, his yiddish accent made it sound like "ajah!" And thus his culturally bankrupt allies dubbed the armory the Ajah. Convinced it was flawed, Mizledorf gave it to his friends (the 100th level party) as a gift, and set about improving its design. That's Mizledorf for you, one parts gnome, two parts perfectionist.

How it works: Once attuned to the Ajah, a character need only concentrate as a standard action and whatever piece of equipment they desire appears equipped on them. They make a requisition check: d20 + Concentration. The check is made against the purchasing DC of the requisitioned item. Items worth 35,000 gold or less (DC 40) have no effect on the Ajah. Items (or collective "purchases") worth more cause the Ajah's new wealth to decrease until said items are returned. The wealth loss for a single requisition equals = 1/3 (purchase DC - wealth bonus) rounded up. The Ajah has a base wealth bonus of 40.
Chapter 4 - Iy-Xeg
Iy-Xeg is the Xeg-Yi in human form and he has just slew an epic dragon and is picking through the remains with a stick, like a creepy kid would a dead cat. The PCs encounter him starting an over throw of the heavens and other such suggested encounters for the DM. He eventually teleports to Sigil.
Chapter 5 - The Wizard’s madness
Originally Posted by Philip 
Unknown to the players when they try to teleport they are thrown into a dream plane of the Wizard’s mind and has split up into multiple personalities who are battling each other across his own mindscape. Unknown to them the PCs are pulled into his mind and must battle the personalities across an ever-changing landscape.

Without warning the PCs are suddenly the only living creatures left in an utterly barren universe. They have to find out what happened. Perhaps one of them did it inadvertently or they have a traitor amongst them?
The Cleric saves the party at the last minute, as she is trapped in here as well, but not before the PCs have many tribulations and trails.
Chapter 6 - the Cleric redemption
The Cleric knows that things have gone wrong and wants to help make things right, but the Gods don’t know this and they have surprises in store for the cleric, and now the PCs.
Originally Posted by Ozmar 
I think this is a good time to introduce the Gods for the PCs to fight and also to have them face mass assaults from armies and such. A good chance for them to really flex their massive abilities by slaying hoards of demons and devils and angels and undead and whatever else we choose.
Chapter 7 - The Lady of Pain’s Revenge
The child incarnations of the Energons have been playing with the PCs throughout the module, playing tricks on them and healing their enemies and starting fights. They are pure energy from the positive and the negative plane and have no emotions, they are, for the first time, free to experiment and they are very good at it, whether it is stopping the blood war or killing all the angels in the heavens, they are just children having fun, without a peer or parent to stop them. 
If the PCs attack them, consider them only to have 6 in all stats, but they have the knowledge and power of 1000th level characters, and can cast any spell, including epic spells and they don’t need others to do a ritual with them, so, even if they die, they come back in a single round and can and will use a powerful effect on the PCs. Most of the time however they just act like children, carefree and only thinking of themselves. It should also be noted that bringing the two together simply won’t reverse events, in fact, it gives them purpose. Where before they were content with minor experiments, now they feel whole when together (remember, alternate cosmos, things working backwards) and they begin to terrorize the cosmos.
The Energons are now in Sigil and the Lady of Pain has forced the PCs into Sigil to deal with them. Whatever happens, the PCs must fight the Lady of Pain, even if it is only for a few rounds. She will most likely overwhelm them, but the PCs might get the jump on her, either way she forces or begs the PCs to act and get the Energons out of her city. The Energons are not willing to leave such a fun city, unless the PCs can find a new place for them to have fun.
From Sigil, you can see the massive castle of the Wizard and Cleric that has formed in the center of the ring of Sigil. Actually, all you can see is a giant black sun which seems to absorb light, and everything else, it is a very large sphere of annihilation growing from the top of the Spire. It is so massive that it can almost be reached with very tall ladders from the streets of Sigil, no wonder the Lady of Pain is so upset.
Chapter 8 - Crating the Epic Spell of Reseeding
One of the places the PCs can offer the Energons to play in is the Observatorium. From here, and also with the help of the Library of Lore (Boccob’s Library), the PCs can create an Epic Spells to recreate the cosmos. While there are hard at work, the PCs can slowly see the warriors of the Ex-Blood War slowly taking control of the cosmos. The demons and the devils, without wasting energy on each other, have grown very powerful, enough of a challenge for 100th level PCs and from time to time they try to invade the Observatorium, or wherever the PCs are.
Chapter 9 - Assault on the Castle in the Void
Basically, everyone seemed to like the storyline by Turanil but I wanted something that made everyone happy, so while it may have to be scaled down a bit from your original idea, here is where you get to add your castle/dimension/epochs thingy. The wizard and the cleric however are in the castle, not just a Chronomancer, but the wizard can be a Chronomancer in addition to a wizard . Note, the Castle in the Void is actually inside a sphere of annihilation, which should make for some great fun in-and-of-itself. Also, the PCs must face the Lady of Pain and get her to let the Gods in the city so they can temporarily open a way into the sphere of annihilation.
Once the cleric and the Wizard are defeated, and they can and do summon some terrible stuff to deal with the PCs, the PCs can then place the energon children at the center of the Castle in the Void and cast the Epic Spell to reseed the time stream. Pretty much the end at that point.
What do you guys think?
Here is the rest of Turanil's idea:
Synopsis: A Chronomancer* (who was but 20th level), using wishes and chronomancy spells, created major time paradoxes which resulted in himself becoming a demi-god, but also creating a mess of dimensions and epochs. Now (inspired from the Amber novels), he resides in a castle at the junction of four planes and a dozen timelines. The world is slowly destroyed by this mess however, and is going to be soon obliterated in a giant sphere of annihilation (due to the time paradox and what not, this sphere is now growing fast, and if not stopped soon enough will devour the planet).

So the PCs will first have to figure out what happens, then get to the mighty castle at the junction of planes and epochs. Of course, other epochs mean they will have to fight villains from the future (with modern weapons) as well as from the past.










Adventure Hooks
This section helps DMs lead the PCs into the adventure. Although it’s fine to structure the adventure so
that one of these hooks is the preferred way to start the adventure, all adventures need at least three
different hooks. At least one hook should be simple and straight-forward (“Deliver this message to the
high-priest of St. Cuthbert in Homlett”). Others can exploit alignment, class, race, or society. Hooks
should not presume anything about the PCs’ actions, nor should they follow the standard adventure hook
that presumes they are mercenaries available to the highest bidder. The hooks don’t necessarily need to
be associated with the adventure’s plot. Adventures for 1st-level characters should include some hooks
that assume that the PCs don’t yet know each other.
One adventure hooks in particular we’ve seen quite enough of are those that have a relation or friend of
a PC call for help. You should also avoid hooks that rely on the coincidence of the PCs’ presence in the
area for the adventure to start. The party should always have a reason to go on an adventure.

Adventure Hooks

The Adventure’s Encounters
At the start of the adventure’s encounters, you can include additional sections that detail rumors,
background information the players can uncover in research or by using bardic knowledge checks, town
statistics, the time of year the adventure takes place in, and other relevant bits. If the adventure is for
higher-level characters, include information that can be learned by divination spells as appropriate.
The adventure itself consists of a series of planned encounters keyed to a map, timeline, or flowchart.
Each encounter can include any or all of the following sections: Read-aloud Text, General Description,
Creature(s), Tactics, Trap(s), Treasure, Development, and Ad Hoc XP Adjustment. Do not include sections
that are unnecessary for a given encounter. For instance, an area devoid of traps does not require a Trap
section. If you find that you don’t have anything to say for any of these categories, the area is not an
encounter and should not be assigned an encounter number. The editors greatly dislike printing the words
“This room is empty,” in DUNGEON.
Each encounter should be rated with an Encounter level (EL #) in the main encounter header, allowing
the DM to quickly assess the possible threat to his or her PCs. The EL is the properly calculated CRs of all
creatures and traps in a particular encounter (see page 49 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide). A sample
encounter header would appear thus: 23. Vampire’s Den (EL 13).
Certain encounters are structured so that the threats are not felt simultaneously. It’s one thing if the pit
trap is in the center of the room and the hill giant keeps bull rushing its enemies into the pit—calculating
the total EL by using the CRs of the monster and trap is expected. But if the trap is on a chest hidden in a
closet and never makes itself felt during a fight, reasonably that trap’s CR should not be figured into the
EL (unless its CR is higher than the monster’s CR, in which case the reverse holds true). Likewise, if an
encounter is designed such that NPCs initially encountered are friendly, but on a repeat visit are revealed
as a threat, the EL in the encounter’s main header should not give the EL based on the second visit,
because it is not true for the first visit to the encounter.
Consult Appendix IV for a sample encounter written in the DUNGEON style.
Introduction


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## DM-Rocco (Oct 2, 2005)

Oh, didn't write anything for adventure hooks or adventure encounters yet, but I did include the guidelines for those parts.  Feel free to add to it or write it.


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## Sage (Oct 6, 2005)

My study is raising the pace, so I'm a little pressed for time.

I'll read the long post and comment it in the weekend.


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## Sage (Oct 9, 2005)

Ok I've read it.

A few comments:
Firstly, you really cleaned up the introduction and rules stuff, nice job. Though you should check out the not about multiple bonus types (luck, sacred etc) again.

You seem to equate "teleport" with "plane shift" and similar spells, this should be cleared up before the end.

Naming the kids Iy-Xeg or whatever is a terrible idea; if the player's aren't supposed to know what they are, don't hand it to them on a siver plate!

I'm not sure how the players are supposed to know what to do, but think it would be great if the players have the posibillity to learn this in the dream world (but still have other ways of figuring it out if they don't do it in the dream world).

Oh, and we might as well create 20th level characters without any magic items (just masterwork) as they loose function near spire anyway, and that's were they'll be.


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## DM-Rocco (Oct 10, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> Ok I've read it.
> 
> A few comments:
> Firstly, you really cleaned up the introduction and rules stuff, nice job. Though you should check out the not about multiple bonus types (luck, sacred etc) again.
> ...



Thanks for the input, I'll look over those areas.  I will also try to do more this week.


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## Sage (Oct 17, 2005)

I'm sorry I can't help with the "crunch", but I want to use the little roleplaying time I have on local campaigns and the SRD.


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## DM-Rocco (Oct 21, 2005)

I have not forgotten about this thread, been very busy at work.  Looks like things are slowing down here.  Sage, are you still in for helping on things or are you saying you are out completely?

Others?

This is turning out to be a lot of work.  I don't mind it, but there is no way I can finish it on my own, or at least not any time soon on my own.  Just wondering how many people are still in for testing and bouncing ideas off of.


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## Sage (Oct 21, 2005)

I can help with ideas, but not with actually writing the adventure. At least not with the way my life is working right now.


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## DM-Rocco (Nov 4, 2005)

Sage said:
			
		

> I can help with ideas, but not with actually writing the adventure. At least not with the way my life is working right now.




I am not forsaking this thread, but it has been hard to find time lately to add to it.  Just wanted to let everyone know.


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