# Wizards 2008 releases?



## MerricB (Jun 20, 2007)

G'day!

Has anyone heard anything yet about Wizards 2008 releases?

I know that Scott said something about a number of adventures (link would be good), but has anyone discovered anything on Amazon or similar?

Are their any announced products that aren't on the Wizards product page for late 2007 as well? 



Cheers!


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## the black knight (Jun 20, 2007)

4th edition will rise from the ashes and slay all of you, especially your helpless pocketbooks. Now run, for the good of the game, and escape with your lives....


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## GAAAHHH (Jun 20, 2007)

the black knight said:
			
		

> 4th edition will rise from the ashes and slay all of you, especially your helpless pocketbooks. Now run, for the good of the game, and escape with your lives....




Yawn.  This again...


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## Nepenthe (Jun 20, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Are their any announced products that aren't on the Wizards product page for late 2007 as well?




Well, I'm kind of wondering about these, myself. I haven't heard of any, but as it is, it looks like I might not be making too many purchases for the rest of the year...  :\ 

Well, at least there's still a few DL books coming out this year!


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## MerricB (Jun 20, 2007)

*January 2008:*
Behind the Screen - World and Monsters - http://www.amazon.com/Behind-Screen...5987235?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182322603&sr=1-8

*February 2008:*
City of Stormreach - http://www.amazon.com/Stormreach-Du...7454832?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182293416&sr=1-3
Star Wars GM Screen & Character Sheets - http://www.amazon.com/Gamemaster-Sc...987235?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182322603&sr=1-22

*March 2008:*
Legacy of the Force Booster Pack - http://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Force-...987235?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182322603&sr=1-10
Black Crusade (novel) by Mouseferatu - http://www.amazon.com/Black-Crusade...987235?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1182322603&sr=1-15

(Thanks Kae'Yoss)

Cheers!


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## Kae'Yoss (Jun 20, 2007)

http://amazon.com/gp/search/ref=sr_...rank&mysubmitbutton1.x=69&mysubmitbutton1.y=5


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## delericho (Jun 20, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> I know that Scott said something about a number of adventures (link would be good)




Do you mean this?



			
				Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> We are continuing to publish adventures in book form. Last look at the 2008 schedule had 6 adventures on it for a total of 544 pages of content.
> 
> This does not include what we'll put out online and/or via the RPGA.


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## MerricB (Jun 20, 2007)

That's the one!


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## jeffh (Jun 20, 2007)

Slightly off the topic of this thread, but are there no support products for Star Wars SE scheduled before February? I haven't heard of any except to the extent that the minis have SE information.


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## Relique du Madde (Jun 20, 2007)

Wow... those picken's look slim....


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## CharlesRyan (Jun 20, 2007)

The WotC 1st-trimester 08 book trade catalog isn't due out for another month. The book trade catalog is the first official announcement of WotC's RPG products. (Amazon requires data to be put in earlier, and due to some flukes in Amazon's systems, sometimes that data goes live before it's supposed to. In a perfect world, the Amazon listings for all of the products in a given trimester would go live the same day as the catalog is released.)

So don't read too much into what does or doesn't appear on Amazon just yet. Come late July or thereabouts, we'll have the whole release schedule for the first four months of 08.


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 20, 2007)

jeffh said:
			
		

> Slightly off the topic of this thread, but are there no support products for Star Wars SE scheduled before February? I haven't heard of any except to the extent that the minis have SE information.



November was what I heard, for the first [follow-up] thing. Can't remember what that was, sorry. :\


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## Aeric (Jun 20, 2007)

Aus_Snow said:
			
		

> November was what I heard, for the first [follow-up] thing. Can't remember what that was, sorry. :\




From a thread in the d20 Modern, etc. forum:

Force Unleashed Campaign Guide:11/2007
The Emperor has swept away the last vestiges of the Old Republic. Darth Vader and his dark apprentice hunt down the surviving Jedi one by one, but a few escape capture and find refuge on backwater worlds. Fewer still reach deep into the Force, unleashing powers beyond their wildest imaginings. Meanwhile, other brave heroes rise to oppose the tyranny of the Empire, heralding the birth of the Rebellion.

This campaign guide draws its inspiration from The Force Unleashed, a revolutionary new video game from Lucasfilm, Ltd. It presents a complete campaign setting during the period between Episode III: Revenge of the Sith and Episode IV: A New Hope. The guide offers exciting new character options and Force powers for players as well as adventure content, campaign seeds, and ready-to-play adversaries for Gamemasters.


Starships of The Galaxy: 12/2007
This rules supplement contains advanced starship combat rules for the Star Wars Roleplaying Game Saga Edition. In addition, it provides new character options for spacefaring heroes as well as descriptions, deckplans, and statistics for starships from all eras (as featured in all six Star Wars films and the Expanded Universe). This deluxe, full-color game supplement also includes rules and guidelines for building your own starships.


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## Aus_Snow (Jun 20, 2007)

Aeric said:
			
		

> From a thread in the d20 Modern, etc. forum: [. . .]



Ah, that was it. Cheers.


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## Baby Samurai (Jun 20, 2007)

I heard something about _Complete Familiar_ and _Guide to Pack Animals_.


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## Kae'Yoss (Jun 20, 2007)

Hm.. heard something about the next Monster Book thing, after Drow of the Underdark:

Cattle of the plains. Finally, the Flaeness Cowboy PrC is going to make its appearance.


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## Whisper72 (Jun 20, 2007)

Well, I heard from a friend of a cousin of a neighbour who knows someone who works within a few miles of WotC that the next thing in monster books is going to be 'all you ever wanted to know about the Flumph but we were earlier afraid to release'.

It is not a very definitive rumor, but confidence is high...


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## Alnag (Jun 20, 2007)

Well... I still think we might see d20 Modern revision in 2008, but probably not in first quarter. And this is definitely just my speculation.

What is interesting is the taht Behind the Screen series. First book is listed for December 2007 acutally, but surprisingly is not listed in WotC product pages, although they have other 12/2007 there. So it is bit mysterious. ;-)


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## Razz (Jun 20, 2007)

Yeah Scott said *544 pages* of adventures for 2008 out of *4000 pages* of material for the year. 

Woo hoo! Finally, no more dozen super-huge adventures! Get to work on non-adventure material! Yay.


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## green slime (Jun 20, 2007)

Bibliooze: Book of Oozes & Slime.

Featuring 39 new feats for oozes, slimes and molds, as well as 56 new spells, and 14 PrC's including:

Slimemiester
Ooze-a-cleric
& Digi-mold.


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## TerraDave (Jun 20, 2007)

GAAAHHH said:
			
		

> Yawn.  This again...




It (4ed) is directly relevant to the thread.


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## DM_Jeff (Jun 20, 2007)

Star Wars miniatures TILES are supposed to come out in December 2007 IIRC.

-DM Jeff


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 20, 2007)

TerraDave said:
			
		

> It (4ed) is directly relevant to the thread.



Not unless it's announced.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 20, 2007)

Aeric said:
			
		

> Force Unleashed Campaign Guide:11/2007
> The Emperor has swept away the last vestiges of the Old Republic. Darth Vader and his dark apprentice hunt down the surviving Jedi one by one, but a few escape capture and find refuge on backwater worlds. Fewer still reach deep into the Force, unleashing powers beyond their wildest imaginings. Meanwhile, other brave heroes rise to oppose the tyranny of the Empire, heralding the birth of the Rebellion.
> 
> This campaign guide draws its inspiration from The Force Unleashed, a revolutionary new video game from Lucasfilm, Ltd. It presents a complete campaign setting during the period between Episode III: Revenge of the Sith and Episode IV: A New Hope. The guide offers exciting new character options and Force powers for players as well as adventure content, campaign seeds, and ready-to-play adversaries for Gamemasters.



It's weird, but that looks like a terrible videogame and a great RPG setting.


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## Mistwell (Jun 20, 2007)

TerraDave said:
			
		

> It (4ed) is directly relevant to the thread.




Nope.  It's not.  Not unless there is actual new news on the subject.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 20, 2007)

Looks like there are more novels due out than rpg products.  :\


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## Razz (Jun 20, 2007)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> Looks like there are more novels due out than rpg products.  :\




Some of which are FR novels, which I quit reading because those novels keep turning the campaign setting upside-down. It's ok once in awhile to do a catastrophic story arc...but several all at once?

Note, this wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't treat FR novels as canon. They need to do what Eberron did and...NOT treat them as canon anymore.

But we'll save this for another topic.


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## boerngrim (Jun 20, 2007)

green slime said:
			
		

> Bibliooze: Book of Oozes & Slime.
> 
> Featuring 39 new feats for oozes, slimes and molds, as well as 56 new spells, and 14 PrC's including:
> 
> ...




I heard this one had the working title Ooza-Palooza! HeHe


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## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 20, 2007)

What about Cattle of the Planes, the Stench Kow sourcebook?



			
				Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Cattle of the plains. Finally, the Flaeness Cowboy PrC is going to make its appearance.


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## Savage Wombat (Jun 20, 2007)

Someone promised me Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.  Me want.

Is there an actual date, or is this still rumorware?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 20, 2007)

Savage Wombat said:
			
		

> Someone promised me Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.  Me want.
> 
> Is there an actual date, or is this still rumorware?



Rumor or a joke.


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## Kheti sa-Menik (Jun 20, 2007)

I'm hoping D20 Modern get some love from WOTC.  Not that I will buy anything, since I'm boycotting them but it'd be nice to see them try to keep people coming back and show that they still support the game.


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## Pants (Jun 21, 2007)

Alnag said:
			
		

> Well... I still think we might see d20 Modern revision in 2008, but probably not in first quarter. And this is definitely just my speculation.



That would be nice.

I don't play d20 Modern that much, but I'd be liable to pick up a revised core book if it came out. It's a fun toolbox set of rules.


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## Shazman (Jun 21, 2007)

With Forge of War being nearly crunchless, and the sparseness  of crunchy books and adventures well into next year, I start to wonder.  The product schedule looks like they are winding down as far as (crunchy) 3.5 products go.  Something must be up.  Shoot, maybe 4E is about to be announced early next year.


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## Nightfall (Jun 21, 2007)

Orcus save me from speculations of the unfounded chicken littles crying out about 4th edition...


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## w_earle_wheeler (Jun 21, 2007)

Savage Wombat said:
			
		

> Someone promised me Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.  Me want.
> 
> Is there an actual date, or is this still rumorware?




You might be thinking about this d20 Modern article:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20modern/article/20060505a


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## Olaf the Stout (Jun 21, 2007)

Kheti sa-Menik said:
			
		

> I'm hoping D20 Modern get some love from WOTC.  Not that I will buy anything, since I'm boycotting them but it'd be nice to see them try to keep people coming back and show that they still support the game.




I don't quite get the logic behind that statement.  If you are boycotting them, why would you care what they published?    

I'm not trying to be snide, I just find your comments confusing.

Olaf the Stout


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## Shazman (Jun 21, 2007)

Shazman said:
			
		

> With Forge of War being nearly crunchless, and the sparseness  of crunchy books and adventures well into next year, I start to wonder.  The product schedule looks like they are winding down as far as (crunchy) 3.5 products go.  Something must be up.  Shoot, maybe 4E is about to be announced early next year.




Okay, I guess it's too early for any 4E rumormongering.  Since 3E came out, we've gotten more crunchy goodness practically every month than is going to be released in the next 8 months. Even just prior to 3.5, WotC's release schedule didn't look like the wasteland it appears to be now.  Maybe they are just running out of ideas, or they are going to put a whole lot of stuff in the DI.


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## mhacdebhandia (Jun 21, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Some of which are FR novels, which I quit reading because those novels keep turning the campaign setting upside-down. It's ok once in awhile to do a catastrophic story arc...but several all at once?
> 
> Note, this wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't treat FR novels as canon. They need to do what Eberron did and...NOT treat them as canon anymore.



It's not that I want Eberron novels to be treated as canon, Luis, but you do realise that the novels are probably the most important part of the Forgotten Realms brand, right? Salvatore's books make the _New York Times_ best-seller list; the _Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting_ did not.

Fans of the novels want to find the setting they read about when they come to the game.

The key would be "no more Realms-Shaking Events in the novels", so that game canon doesn't have to change to match novel canon.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 21, 2007)

Shazman said:
			
		

> With Forge of War being nearly crunchless, and the sparseness  of crunchy books and adventures well into next year, I start to wonder.  The product schedule looks like they are winding down as far as (crunchy) 3.5 products go.  Something must be up.  Shoot, maybe 4E is about to be announced early next year.




I could be misremembering, but a lot of the 2e material was 'fluff'.

On the other hand, since I have a lot of that material, the new material in the new format isn't doing a lot for me and I prefer crunch.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 22, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I could be misremembering, but a lot of the 2e material was 'fluff'.



I just reread the Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings last weekend, and it's almost 100 percent fluff. Beyond introducing the forest gnome and polar halfling, most of the crunch is reprints, at that.


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## Nepenthe (Jun 22, 2007)

Well, there's fluff, and then there's "confessions of a part-time sorceress".


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## TerraDave (Jun 22, 2007)

Ok, 4ed, which is, yes, why the releases or going all soggy, is not relevant. 

2nd ed fluff, that is relevant? 

But since its come up, its true tsr was releasing that, er, stuff from the start of 2ed, sadly. And would put big dollops of it in books that otherwise might have some good crunch. (As an aside, I don't have a problem with good fluff, but sometimes with so much bad you just can't find the good). 

Back to WotC. This is a change of behaviour for them and it is exactly what _should_ happen before a new edition. I am just giving them the benefit of the doubt.


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## Kheti sa-Menik (Jun 22, 2007)

Olaf the Stout said:
			
		

> I don't quite get the logic behind that statement.  If you are boycotting them, why would you care what they published?
> 
> I'm not trying to be snide, I just find your comments confusing.
> 
> Olaf the Stout





If WOTC stops publishing "official content" for D20 Modern altogether, they would signal their intention to stop supporting that brand.  If that happens, two possibilities can happen: one, that since new players to the hobby see a game that is unsupported, and to them unsupported = suxs, they may not wish to play that game at all, so we get no more D20 Modern players and old ones who decide to jump ship don't have a reason not to.  Secondly, if WOTC gives up on D20 Modern, it could push the smaller publishers (whose D20 Modern material I do buy) to give up publishing material for it.  Why publish product for an unsupported game after all?  

And both of those feed into one another:  new players/old players see neither WOTC or other publishers supporting the game with new product so they move on to something else.  WOTC and other publishers see gamers turning away from D20 Modern because it appears unsupported and instead of more releases, they give up and walk away from the brand.

So, I was WOTC to keep publishing D20 Modern material and supporting the game so it attracts more players and keeps smaller publishers making D20 Modern product.


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## Michael Morris (Jun 22, 2007)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> The WotC 1st-trimester 08 book trade catalog isn't due out for another month. The book trade catalog is the first official announcement of WotC's RPG products. (Amazon requires data to be put in earlier, and due to some flukes in Amazon's systems, sometimes that data goes live before it's supposed to. In a perfect world, the Amazon listings for all of the products in a given trimester would go live the same day as the catalog is released.)
> 
> So don't read too much into what does or doesn't appear on Amazon just yet. Come late July or thereabouts, we'll have the whole release schedule for the first four months of 08.



 I'm willing to bet Amazon does that on purpose to get extra traffic driven to their site due to the 'spoilers' they have


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 23, 2007)

TerraDave said:
			
		

> Ok, 4ed, which is, yes, why the releases or going all soggy, is not relevant.
> 
> 2nd ed fluff, that is relevant?
> 
> ...




2nd ed is a good comparission point that no, the sky is not falling and that books have been packed with crunch quite a bit prior to 3rd ed.


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## Brakkart (Jun 23, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> The key would be "no more Realms-Shaking Events in the novels", so that game canon doesn't have to change to match novel canon.




Nope sorry, have to disagree with you there. I LIKE that the Realms is a constantly changing, evolving world. It makes it more real to me. Actions and events should have consequences and repercussions and the world should (and currently does) reflect that. It is simple enough to say "such and such event doesn't happen in my Realms". You don't have to incorporate every RSE into your FR campaign, nor do you have to have them occur exactly as they are in the novels.

Lolth's Silence in my campaign for instance didn't result in her creating the Demonweb Pits as a seperate plane, as I don't use the new Realms cosmology, I use the Great Wheel. Instead she simply scrapped and rebuilt her layer, in the process evicting all the other drow deities from it to fully claim the layer as her own. She later let Selvetarm back in... just for him to get killed in _Sacrifice of the Widow_. Bottom line, it is YOUR Realms.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2007)

Brakkart said:
			
		

> Nope sorry, have to disagree with you there. I LIKE that the Realms is a constantly changing, evolving world. It makes it more real to me.



Really? Isn't it a little implausible that all the negative consequences of these actions are always prevented/rolled back by the heroes?

Wouldn't it be more realistic if, after one of these events, a country was well and truly wiped out, a race died out or some other fundemental change occured?

The Realms-shaking events provide the illusion of change while still making the world still just as playable for all groups. It's Mister Toad's Wild Ride, not realism.


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## Sketchpad (Jun 23, 2007)

Re: d20 Modern ... I wouldn't be surprised if they're sitting on a d20M revision to see how SWSE does.  If it does well, I would almost bet that we'll see a familar concept done to d20M


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## Nightfall (Jun 23, 2007)

*has only one comment about Realms* They need to STOP taking the Archfiends for granted!  

Those guys have been around longer than Cyric and certainly nearly as long as Shar. Yet when it comes to the deities it's like "Oh yeah the gods are powerful and thus can just boss the Demon Princes around." kind of deal. 

What the heck?! *sighs* Stupid writers need to respect the TRUE powers of the Lower Planes.


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## Razz (Jun 23, 2007)

Ugh, I hate the Realms novels so much now I've quit reading them.

I thought stories were supposed to be about the CHARACTERS and how they deal with their lives or what life throws at them in a world like Toril.

Instead, it seems every author is jumping on the "Shatter canon lore!" wagon.

Let's see, from the top of my head, let me list all the catastrophic events happening all simultaneously in the Realms which is turning the entire world upside-down all of a sudden:

Here's the list covered in spoiler marking: 



Spoiler



---Lolth's Silence (nearly destroyed Menzoberranzan, re-structured the cosmology, destroyed a few other cities)

---Vhaeraun and Selvetarm's death and possibly the rest of the drow pantheon leaving only, most likely, Lolth alive in the end (a set of novels AFTER Lolth's Silence...what gives? Now a restructing of pantheons?!)

---Elven crusade to take over Myth Drannor, complete. (now we've lost the one cool place for adventurers to, well, adventure in)

---Khelben Blackstaff's death

---Halaster Blackcloak's death

---Iyraclea's death

---The Sybil's death

---Civil war in Sembia

---A war in Thay with an army of undead

---A war in the Silver Marches with King Obould



When will they STOP!?

I like the way Eberron does their novels. They're stories but they're NOT CANON. The Realms novels needs to do this. For one, the stories are now about let's see which author can shake the Realms apart. Bad writing and bad design. Second, it's supposed to be about the PCs considering it should be a GAME WORLD first, and a NOVEL world last. These events make for good adventure modules for the PCs to get involved in.


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## Shazman (Jun 23, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> I could be misremembering, but a lot of the 2e material was 'fluff'.
> 
> On the other hand, since I have a lot of that material, the new material in the new format isn't doing a lot for me and I prefer crunch.




You still have to admit that the new release schedule is vastly different than it was earlier this year and for several years previous to it.  Instead of Complete Warrior II, we get Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress and Behind The Scenes: Worlds and Monsters, etc.  This stuff doesn't even qualify as fluff.  It appears to be a complete 180 from their prior emphasis on crunch.  Add in the cancellation of Code Monkey's and Paizo's liscenses , and you can't really beleive they aren't up to something big.


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## JoeGKushner (Jun 23, 2007)

Shazman said:
			
		

> You still have to admit that the new release schedule is vastly different than it was earlier this year and for several years previous to it.  Instead of Complete Warrior II, we get Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress and Behind The Scenes: Worlds and Monsters, etc.  This stuff doesn't even qualify as fluff.  It appears to be a complete 180 from their prior emphasis on crunch.  Add in the cancellation of Code Monkey's and Paizo's liscenses , and you can't really beleive they aren't up to something big.




Well, I don't think I've ever claimed any insider knowledge.

However, WoTC seems to be trying to react to some elements.

When people didn't want fluff, such as at the start of 3.0, the products that were heavy on crunch sold well and those that didn't have it did not sell as well.

As the system has continued to expand, people needed adventurers but the shrinking market wasn't supporting them so WoTC does more adventures. Also 'backlash' against too much crunch so fluff ratio increases.

Games still down so WoTC tries to expand the market via books like Confessions and Gleemax. Court is out on what effect the DI will have but the initial impact of cancelling Dungeon and Dragon magazines is almost universally negative on the vocal front. If that actually results in less sales for WoTC, I don't think we'll ever know.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 23, 2007)

Shazman said:
			
		

> You still have to admit that the new release schedule is vastly different than it was earlier this year and for several years previous to it.  Instead of Complete Warrior II, we get Confessions of a Part-Time Sorceress and Behind The Scenes: Worlds and Monsters, etc.  This stuff doesn't even qualify as fluff.  It appears to be a complete 180 from their prior emphasis on crunch.  Add in the cancellation of Code Monkey's and Paizo's liscenses , and you can't really beleive they aren't up to something big.



They go in cycles on product.

And WotC's been on the fluff wagon for a while. The Practical Guide to Dragons (a kid's version of the Draconomicon) came out in September 2006. The Practical Guide to Monsters comes out later this year.


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## Kae'Yoss (Jun 24, 2007)

Well, I guess people are getting tired of more of the same. Crunch isn't bad, but if it's not much different from the stuff you got last year, you're less inclined to get it. And doing completely new crunch (like the Book of Nine Swords) isn't easy.



			
				Nightfall said:
			
		

> *has only one comment about Realms* They need to STOP taking the Archfiends for granted!
> 
> Those guys have been around longer than Cyric and certainly nearly as long as Shar. Yet when it comes to the deities it's like "Oh yeah the gods are powerful and thus can just boss the Demon Princes around." kind of deal.
> 
> What the heck?! *sighs* Stupid writers need to respect the TRUE powers of the Lower Planes.




Disgruntled Demon Cultists are so funny    



			
				Brakkart said:
			
		

> Nope sorry, have to disagree with you there. I LIKE that the Realms is a constantly changing, evolving world.




Me, too. A static world isn't fun.

But it's the old problem: If you don't do RSEs, people complain. If you do RSEs, people complain. If you try to find a middle ground, everyone complains. (Okay, not everyone, some will see the benefit of this)



> It is simple enough to say "such and such event doesn't happen in my Realms". You don't have to incorporate every RSE into your FR campaign, nor do you have to have them occur exactly as they are in the novels.




Exactly. It is very easy to ignore novels and developments in later sourcebooks and just use the Realms like they are in the Campaign Setting. 

It's harder to come up with dozens of events that go on in the world, but aren't connected to your party. 

So the best thing for Wizards is to do things in their books and novels that change the realms, that are interesting to read (I wouldn't want dozens of novel trilogies about farm boys who defend their homestead from goblins and then go wipe out a small orc tribe). You can ignore the stuff, you can let it run in the background, never influencing your own campaign too much, but they bring the Realms to life.


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## Nepenthe (Jun 24, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> So the best thing for Wizards is to do things in their books and novels that change the realms, that are interesting to read (I wouldn't want dozens of novel trilogies about farm boys who defend their homestead from goblins and then go wipe out a small orc tribe). You can ignore the stuff, you can let it run in the background, never influencing your own campaign too much, but they bring the Realms to life.




Isn't that pretty much what the Realms books used to be like? I mean, I do have quite a few of them (mostly pre-2000) and most of them (the harpers series and so on) certainly didn't have any Realms shaking events (I find the fact that there's an abbreviation for such a thing more than a little disturbing, to be honest)


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## Kae'Yoss (Jun 24, 2007)

Nepenthe said:
			
		

> Isn't that pretty much what the Realms books used to be like? I mean, I do have quite a few of them (mostly pre-2000) and most of them (the harpers series and so on) certainly didn't have any Realms shaking events




I can't remember the plots of many of them, but those I do remember (having recently read the Starlight and Shadows books), there is often more going on than some purely local matters. Most of the time, when a big event didn't happen, it was because it was just averted.

Sure, some have small stories, but that's true for current books, too. There might be more big things going on than before, but it's certainly not exclusive: 

The Depths of Madness was about one Dungeon, one or two adventuring parties, and a couple of villains.
The latter two books of the Sellswords trilogy (Salvatore's books about Entreri and Jarlaxle) didn't have anything even approaching an RSE.
Frostfell also only covered an icy wasteland and was more about persons than bigger events.
Swords of Eveningstar, if I recall correctly, was also mostly about a start-up adventuring band.
Bloodwalk was about one or two cities.
The whole Fighters Series wasn't about big things, either.



> (I find the fact that there's an abbreviation for such a thing more than a little disturbing, to be honest)




Bah. This is the internet. Sometimes things get abbreviations before they're mentioned twice. It's the well-known IAS (internet abbreviation syndrome)


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## mhacdebhandia (Jun 24, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Second, it's supposed to be about the PCs considering it should be a GAME WORLD first, and a NOVEL world last.



I'm just not sure that's actually true, Luis. Again - Forgotten Realms game products don't hit the _New York Times_ best-seller list. Forgotten Realms novels do.

You wouldn't complain if, say, you were using the d20 _Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game_ and it turned out that Robert Jordan's latest entry in the Neverending Series changed the world so much that a significant amount of the game information was affected, because you understand that you're playing a game based on the novels, not reading novels based on the game setting.

It may simply be that market forces have convinced Wizards of the Coast to make this the _de facto_ case for the Forgotten Realms.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> But it's the old problem: If you don't do RSEs, people complain.



Who's complaining about Eberron being static?

RSEs are necessary because the marketing department doesn't seem to think they can tell stories about inviduals that are compelling enough to sell novels. Never mind that The Hobbit wasn't a Middle Earth shaking event, but a straight-up dungeon crawl, for the most part, that also focused a lot on the personal growth of the title character.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> I'm just not sure that's actually true, Luis. Again - Forgotten Realms game products don't hit the _New York Times_ best-seller list. Forgotten Realms novels do.
> 
> You wouldn't complain if, say, you were using the d20 _Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game_ and it turned out that Robert Jordan's latest entry in the Neverending Series changed the world so much that a significant amount of the game information was affected, because you understand that you're playing a game based on the novels, not reading novels based on the game setting.
> 
> It may simply be that market forces have convinced Wizards of the Coast to make this the _de facto_ case for the Forgotten Realms.



It's not necessary to have RSE in a FR novel. It's an editorial choice, and one that puts the novel readers ahead of the gamers.


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## FATDRAGONGAMES (Jun 25, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Court is out on what effect the DI will have but the initial impact of cancelling Dungeon and Dragon magazines is almost universally negative on the vocal front. If that actually results in less sales for WoTC, I don't think we'll ever know.




Agreed.


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## mhacdebhandia (Jun 25, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> It's not necessary to have RSE in a FR novel. It's an editorial choice, and one that puts the novel readers ahead of the gamers.



That is true, and I don't deny it.

One could interpret it as a development of a continual cycle of momentous events which must be followed in order for later stories to make sense - not unlike the "shocking" twists of a soap opera.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 25, 2007)

I would like to see a book cover forested lands – rainforests, swamps, temperate forests, etc. – the way Sandstorm covered deserts. But it probably won’t happen. Pity.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> That is true, and I don't deny it.
> 
> One could interpret it as a development of a continual cycle of momentous events which must be followed in order for later stories to make sense - not unlike the "shocking" twists of a soap opera.



That's a worthwhile point, but still, that could be accomplished by having upheavals with a group of characters the reader was invested in, much like Sam Grimes changes and grows in the Discworld novels.


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## Nepenthe (Jun 25, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I would like to see a book cover forested lands – rainforests, swamps, temperate forests, etc. – the way Sandstorm covered deserts. But it probably won’t happen. Pity.




I was in fact thinking about the very same thing the other day. So let's mark that down as a "me too".


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## JustKim (Jun 25, 2007)

Nepenthe said:
			
		

> I was in fact thinking about the very same thing the other day. So let's mark that down as a "me too".



This has been suggested since before the first environment book was even released, back when it was just Far Corners of the World at wizards.com. Despite all that momentum, WotC does not seem to want to publish a forest/jungle/swamp book.


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## Razz (Jun 25, 2007)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> I'm just not sure that's actually true, Luis. Again - Forgotten Realms game products don't hit the _New York Times_ best-seller list. Forgotten Realms novels do.
> 
> You wouldn't complain if, say, you were using the d20 _Wheel of Time Roleplaying Game_ and it turned out that Robert Jordan's latest entry in the Neverending Series changed the world so much that a significant amount of the game information was affected, because you understand that you're playing a game based on the novels, not reading novels based on the game setting.
> 
> It may simply be that market forces have convinced Wizards of the Coast to make this the _de facto_ case for the Forgotten Realms.




Which is totally just wrong, in my opinion. 

See, not every Forgotten Realms player reads a FR novel. It's unfair to base a lot of the game material on the novels. Especially if said novels are being churned out so quickly. It's gotten to the point where a FR player will be so far behind on what's happening in the Realms if he/she is a couple of trilogies behind everyone else. It's also thinning out the market since now you're not only required to purchase Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, but you're also going to have to churn out money for all those novels to boot as well.

If you don't buy the novels, the next time a FR sourcebook comes out and a million things just happened that just made your last sourcebook practically obsolete makes you sit there and wonder,"What the hell?"

Like I said, I wouldn't mind an FR novel here and there being canon material. Like if it detailed a new region or a catastrophic event were to happen that they were planning to implement into the world. But I really don't believe ALL of them should be canon. Again, Eberron went this route and it's working out fine. You have the fans of the novels and the fans of the gamers getting what they want and neither side having to worry about one affecting the other. Also, the novel readers who are the gamers can actually apply the events in the novel into their game with just a word.


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## Eytan Bernstein (Jun 25, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Which is totally just wrong, in my opinion.
> 
> See, not every Forgotten Realms player reads a FR novel. It's unfair to base a lot of the game material on the novels. Especially if said novels are being churned out so quickly. It's gotten to the point where a FR player will be so far behind on what's happening in the Realms if he/she is a couple of trilogies behind everyone else. It's also thinning out the market since now you're not only required to purchase Forgotten Realms sourcebooks, but you're also going to have to churn out money for all those novels to boot as well.
> 
> ...




I suppose mine could hardly be considered an objective fan opinion, but I read the novels for fun and to get the "feel" of the Realms in my mind.  I like to read books that detail new regions or that inspire character ideas (or that expand on ideas I already have).  I don't see the novels as big books of history that I have to import into my campaigns.  If there is history and detail that I need, I use it.  But, if there is some small town on a map that was covered in a novel written 15 years ago (which I'm sure I read), I might well forget or do something entirely different with it.  I do like the idea of canon because it provides a common history, but I don't necessarily limit myself to it, except for the purposes of design.


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## Mercule (Jun 25, 2007)

I'm definitely not an FR fan, so this will probably sound like heresy to some people.

I'm not sure that FR is a distinctly 'gaming' world, anymore.  WotC is certainly making more money from the FR novels than the gaming material will ever generate (see above point about NYT Best-Sellers list).  As such, I think FR is a great way to draw people into the hobby.

Lots of gamers got their start by reading Tolkien, Vance, Brooks, Jordan, Martin, etc. and wanting a bit more of that world.  There's a desire to then play in that setting.  The trouble is that IP is held pretty tight -- and, it often doesn't translate well to game rules.  

FR provides a consistant, successful presence in the sci-fi section at the book store to draw people to the concept and the setting.  I doubt you can read FR novels for long without discovering that it started (or shot to fame) as a D&D setting.  Boom!  Instant invitation to play.  Of course, the source material needs to be able to support the people who are playing in the Realms because of the novels -- which may (data would be great) be more than the number of people playing in the Realms because they like D&D.

So, it almost seems that the Realms are a bridge brand to help introduce players to D&D.  I actually appeciate FR in that regard.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2007)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I'm definitely not an FR fan, so this will probably sound like heresy to some people.
> 
> I'm not sure that FR is a distinctly 'gaming' world, anymore.  WotC is certainly making more money from the FR novels than the gaming material will ever generate (see above point about NYT Best-Sellers list).  As such, I think FR is a great way to draw people into the hobby.
> 
> ...



All well-put, but none of it requires that the novel world be at the expense of the gaming world. A modest shift in editorial direction would continue letting the goose lay her golden eggs, but do it in a way that didn't make gamers second-class citizens of the Realms.

To paraphrase Buffy, Realms fans shouldn't have to know the plural of "apocalypse."


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## Nepenthe (Jun 25, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> All well-put, but none of it requires that the novel world be at the expense of the gaming world. A modest shift in editorial direction would continue letting the goose lay her golden eggs, but do it in a way that didn't make gamers second-class citizens of the Realms.



I was pretty much going to write that, so I'll just QFT it. 

It's kind of funny that, to me at least, the current gen Dragonlance gaming products pretty much have the Forgotten Realms stuff beat, considering the relative quality of the brands in the past and the past role of DL as the "novel world"... (Not to say that there aren't some excellent books in the current FR range, the way City of Splendors uses the guild system from DMG II is brilliant and very mineable, which is even better!  )


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## Flynn (Jun 25, 2007)

Out of curiosity, what does RSEs have to do with WOTC's 2008 releases? Did I skip a post about some upcoming cataclysm or something? If so, when in 2008 will we find out about it? And will it be a novel, a supplement or both?

Thanks,
Flynn


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 25, 2007)

Flynn said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what does RSEs have to do with WOTC's 2008 releases? Did I skip a post about some upcoming cataclysm or something? If so, when in 2008 will we find out about it? And will it be a novel, a supplement or both?



*2008: Year of the Cataclysm*​
A catclysm every month! In every game world! Including the world of the Knights of the Silver Dragon!


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## Kae'Yoss (Jun 25, 2007)

Flynn said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, what does RSEs have to do with WOTC's 2008 releases? Did I skip a post about some upcoming cataclysm or something? If so, when in 2008 will we find out about it? And will it be a novel, a supplement or both?




Big events that are going on in current D&D novel series: (See spoiler text below)



Spoiler



Mass deicide in the Drow pantheon, with Selvetarm a goner and Vhaeraun presumed dead and his stuff assimilated by his sister - though it's not unlikely that the whole thing was staged, and that the two want to get at their mother.

Lots of warmongering going on in in Sembia, with talk in the novels about Shar's great plan coming to fruitation soon. That great plan, of course, is the obliteration of everything.

Then there's some serious partying going on in Thay, as Szass Tam decided that the whole council thing was too much of a hassle and started to go to war against the rest of Thay. It's not that unlikely that he'll succeed and cover the neighbouring countries with war, too.

Obould Many Arrows having established the first ever Orc Kingdom, and the heroes of Mithral Hall being less than happy about their new neighbours.



I think that all of these novel series have novels coming out in 2008, some of them beyond, too.


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## Broccli_Head (Jun 25, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> :
> 
> 
> 
> ...




When/what book did those happen?


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## Kae'Yoss (Jun 27, 2007)

Broccli_Head said:
			
		

> When/what book did those happen?




Use your secret ring to reveal the hidden scripture!



Spoiler



People are complaining when no Chosen of Mystra dies. People are complaining when one does die. It seems the old proverb is wrong: The only constant thing isn't change: It's people complaining!

Not that I didn't like our oatmeal-devouring, skunk-bearded, waterdhavian archmage, mind you.


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## jhallum (Jun 27, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Ugh, I hate the Realms novels so much now I've quit reading them.




I have half suspected for a few weeks now (I'm a bit slow), that after the Grand History of the Realms, there might not be any more Realms books, or at the very least, some sort of grand concluding product for the realms in '08.  With the death of so many characters, a flurry of huge Realm changing events over the past year,  with the release of the trilogy of Supermodules (and the hidden RSE in Undermountain), and even the article in Dragon last month (which is another RSE of minor proportions).   I suspect that they are building up to something pretty impressive.  

However, death has never been a career ending injury in the Realms, so nothing is ever set in stone, and I could be wrong.


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## Faraer (Jun 27, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> It's not necessary to have RSE in a FR novel. It's an editorial choice, and one that puts the novel readers ahead of the gamers.



Not novel readers in general, but the portion of the novel readers for whom the RSEs are a draw, after having been trained to expect escalating spectacle (as Jim Butler admitted on REALMS-L) since 1989.


			
				Brakkart said:
			
		

> Actions and events should have consequences and repercussions and the world should (and currently does) reflect that.



If the RSEs occurred organically and credibly from the setting, and their effects were treated with depth and verisimilitude, that would be one thing. Excepting a couple, I've never even read an argument that they do.


			
				Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> It's harder to come up with dozens of events that go on in the world, but aren't connected to your party.



This purpose could be met much more effectively by the rumours and current clack once common in Realms sources than by a relatively small number of grandiose novel trilogies with fixed canonical outcomes.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 27, 2007)

Faraer said:
			
		

> Not novel readers in general, but the portion of the novel readers for whom the RSEs are a draw, after having been trained to expect escalating spectacle (as Jim Butler admitted on REALMS-L) since 1989.



At some point, though, the habit has to be kicked, or they'll have to have the world almost being destroyed every novel, and the readers are going to start laughing and wandering away. It's why Marvel Comics periodically dials back the silliness of the X-Men books for a year or so before reescalating things (and having 10,000,000 spin-off books) again.


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## Shazman (Jun 27, 2007)

Back to the original point of the thread.  I can understand going in cycles, but the shift in emphasis by WotC seems more dramatic than anything I've seen since 3E was released.  There seems to be a significant drought after July.


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## Kae'Yoss (Jun 27, 2007)

jhallum said:
			
		

> I have half suspected for a few weeks now (I'm a bit slow), that after the Grand History of the Realms, there might not be any more Realms books, or at the very least, some sort of grand concluding product for the realms in '08.




Nah, can't quite see it. As long as those things sell, they're bee made and sold. Plus, There's already a couple of novels scheduled for '09, and even one for early '10

http://www.o-love.net/realms/fr_books_date.html

And that's only books that finish some trilogy or other, I guess that before we get there, those numbers will be greatly bolstered by new series and the occasional single product.



> With the death of so many characters




It's not as if the Realms are in danger of running out of novel characters, or that this was a first. 



> with the release of the trilogy of Supermodules




Which I'd call more a beginning - the beginning of modules made by Wizards.



> and even the article in Dragon last month (which is another RSE of minor proportions).




What's a minor RSE? A room-shaking event?    



> However, death has never been a career ending injury in the Realms, so nothing is ever set in stone, and I could be wrong.




Well at least one of those characters mentioned is gone for good - the work he did required his life force, and it cannot be taken back.

Which leads to something else:

There's not only ends, but also beginnings:
The Deep Immaskari started trading with the surface
Myth Drannor was regained and made into an elven city again (oh, and the last chapter of the Last Mythal series plays 5 years after the other events, and apparently the Realms were still standing.


The sky is not falling quite yet, and I doubt they will, at least as long as there's profit in the Realms. I doubt Wizards would to an oWoD with the FR.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 27, 2007)

I can also see the RSE events though building to a major cataclysm with world wide ripples that can be used to justify major rule changes for 4e. Sort of like what they did for 3E. If the rules need a new cosmology or magic system what better way to include it in the existing campaign worlds.


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## Razz (Jun 27, 2007)

jhallum said:
			
		

> I have half suspected for a few weeks now (I'm a bit slow), that after the Grand History of the Realms, there might not be any more Realms books, or at the very least, some sort of grand concluding product for the realms in '08.  With the death of so many characters, a flurry of huge Realm changing events over the past year,  with the release of the trilogy of Supermodules (and the hidden RSE in Undermountain), and even the article in Dragon last month (which is another RSE of minor proportions).   I suspect that they are building up to something pretty impressive.
> 
> However, death has never been a career ending injury in the Realms, so nothing is ever set in stone, and I could be wrong.




It's getting ridiculous, honestly. I can't pick up a Realms novel without some RSE happening in it anymore. It's not even about the characters in the novels anymore, it's about them stopping, cushioning, or failing from stopping the RSE.

*Isn't that something PCs in the Forgotten Realms GAME is supposed to be doing!?*

If I don't read the novels, however, I'm lagging sorely behind in Realms lore only to pick up the next Realms sourcebook and find the whole setting turned upside-down. Thanks to the novels.

I like Realms novels that go more into the characters, the land, the people, and the history of the Realms. What these characters go through in reaction to the world, its dangers, and its joy. Not a novel that seeks to destroy those aspects before they can even be told! 

It's as if Realms novels are turning FR into another Dragonlance. One cataclysmic catastrophe after the next, like atom bombs exploding in different portions of the Realms. (leaving Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zhakara completely in ignorance of it all, too, places that really need more novels set in to attract more of an audience)


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## johnnype (Jun 27, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Who's complaining about Eberron being static?



I am. I've read eight or so of the Eberron novels and in the end found them to be wanting. Not necessarily because they are bad but because I fail to see their relevance in the setting. One of the authors (I think it was Keith Baker) said that at the end of each and every novel all the "toys" were put back into their chest and in doing so the setting reverts back to it's original shape. That was the nail in the coffin for me. 

Count me as one who likes metaplot and who thinks it trivially easy to ignore if I don't like it.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2007)

johnnype said:
			
		

> I am. I've read eight or so of the Eberron novels and in the end found them to be wanting. Not necessarily because they are bad but because I fail to see their relevance in the setting. One of the authors (I think it was Keith Baker) said that at the end of each and every novel all the "toys" were put back into their chest and in doing so the setting reverts back to it's original shape. That was the nail in the coffin for me.
> 
> Count me as one who likes metaplot and who thinks it trivially easy to ignore if I don't like it.




I don't mind metaplot --- I find a lot of the FR metaplot from the FRCS and the few other books I have pretty interesting.  And I don't mind just ignoring metaplot that I either don't like or don't know about.  What I found annoying recently was buying an FR novel -- which I don't do that often due to lack of shelf space -- and having a major character death and RSE without any of the reasoning explained within the novel itself.  (Note that this novel was a standalone novel.)  Maybe I just don't read enough FR novels, but it was aggravating.  The older Realms novels I've read made sure you knew what was going on and why it was important.  Anyway, my 2cp.  I doubt I'll buy any novels by that author again, which is sad because there were definitely some interesting ideas.


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## Jhaelen (Jun 27, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I don't mind metaplot --- I find a lot of the FR metaplot from the FRCS and the few other books I have pretty interesting.  And I don't mind just ignoring metaplot that I either don't like or don't know about.  What I found annoying recently was buying an FR novel -- which I don't do that often due to lack of shelf space -- and having a major character death and RSE without any of the reasoning explained within the novel itself.  (Note that this novel was a standalone novel.)  Maybe I just don't read enough FR novels, but it was aggravating.  The older Realms novels I've read made sure you knew what was going on and why it was important.  Anyway, my 2cp.  I doubt I'll buy any novels by that author again, which is sad because there were definitely some interesting ideas.



Well, at the time the novels killed the Darksun setting for me. I really enjoyed reading the Prism Pentad, but I knew right from the beginning, the events would never happen that way in my campaign.
In my Darksun campaign Rikus didn't survive the assassination attempt on Kalak. Kalak also didn't die in the attempt - he just had to retreat to 'recover' from the failed ascension ritual to reappear later as an athasian 'dracolich' 

But since later supplements assumed the events in the novels to be canon, I no longer had any use for them. Really a pity!

So, I absolutely prefer the Eberron approach on novels not affecting the 'officual' campaign setting.


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## Sucros (Jun 27, 2007)

Last Mythal and War of the Spider queen ending spoilers, be warned.

The way I see it, there are two major veins of RSEs.  There's the "Lolth takes her realm from the abyss and starts a new plane" and then there's "Elves return to Myth Dranor".  The rest are localized and easy to ignore.  Don't like that a certain character is dead?  Then he's not dead.  Don't want to worry about a massive rage of wyrm dragons sweeping across faerun?  Nothing happened.

The other two are much more deep in impact.  The lolth issue cements the FR "bastard" cosmology in cannon (ug ug ug) has a direct effect on the source material, and is way too large for the PCs to be involved in.  While this led to novels that some people enjoyed, it's a large blemish on the material for players.

The second I don't mind at all.  It's not by mistake that Myth Dranor is dead in the center of the early maps of the forgotten realms.  Once upon a time, the RoMD were the central focus of the setting, the big dungeon.  Returning the elves to it revitalizes the old dungeon and brings it in line with the plot-driven dungeoning style of modern modules.  Where once people delved the ruins in search of wealth, or perhaps the missing princess of cormyr (to trade in for wealth) now they have story reasons to delve the catacombs.  The players aren't mindlessly looting anymore, they're actively participating in history.  It makes the granddaddy of FR dungeons interesting and accessable again.  I love it.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 27, 2007)

My concern about the Lolth stuff is that the players can't participate in it, in any way. At least with Myth Drannor, an elf group can participate in clearing part of the ruins, get involved in the politics of the new city and so on.

An event where players are forced to be spectators is crappy DMing and shouldn't be excused when it happens in a novel, either, since those spill over into the game setting.


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## Shazman (Jun 28, 2007)

More spoilers










Why can't palyer's take part in it?  The FR super-advneture City of the Spider Queen takes place during Lloth's Silence.  The whole trilogy reads like a high level adventure. I think it would be fun to run a group of drow PC's on a wild goose chase (separate and distinct from the novel party) to find out the cause of Lloths' Silence.  Throw in your own twists to make the story yours, and you've got a great story. If you don't like the story. Big deal!  Anyone whose not a drow won't know or care about it!  Running a group of elven PC's clearing out Myth Drannor would't be too bad either.  Embrace the novel metaplots and make them your own or forget they exist.  So what if the Shade Enclave arrived from the Shadow Plane, raging dragons have wreaked havoc in the countryside, Lloth didn't answer prayers for a few months, and the elves returned to Myth Drannor after routing a fey'ri army.  In the end, it won't affect most commn folk or PC's unless you really want them to. Most of these so-called RSE's ususally just end up as blurbs in later novels.  Not that Realms Shaking if you ask me.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 28, 2007)

-10 points for "Lloth."

"City of the Spider Queen" isn't the characters participating in diddly. That's players dealing with the consequences of cooler, higher-level NPCs doing awesome stuff, i.e. the very worst things that the Forgotten Realms is accused of being by its detractors.


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## freyar (Jun 28, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> "City of the Spider Queen" isn't the characters participating in diddly. That's players dealing with the consequences of cooler, higher-level NPCs doing awesome stuff, i.e. the very worst things that the Forgotten Realms is accused of being by its detractors.




Boy, talk about a threadjack!  

This is one of the things that I actually like about the much maligned Avatar modules: 
[sblock]
the PCs actually participate in what turns out to be one of the important points of the Time of Troubles, at least as far as even most of the gods are concerned.  Sure, the big NPCs are dealing with bigger threats offstage (or at least I guess that's the point of the Shadow of the Avatars trilogy -- or whatever it's called, I haven't read it), but the players are directly involved in finding the tablets of fate and establishing the new parts of the pantheon.  I'm going to run those one of these days.  Now I just need to figure out how to make them less of a railroad, but that's a separate thread...[/sblock]


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## MerricB (Jun 28, 2007)

The Avatar modules also have a bunch of NPCs that take all the rewards. They've got good writing in them, but you have to dump a bunch of stuff.

Cheers!


----------



## blargney the second (Jun 28, 2007)

Here's one for the list:
Eberron Survival Guide in March 2008.  It looks to be some sort of picture book for the coffee table.
-blarg


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## Flynn (Jun 28, 2007)

Here's the list I've found so far off of Amazon, from July 2007 to April 2008. Asterisks denote books related to gaming that have no gaming info in them. (i.e. These are all fluff.) This list does not include novels.

* * * * *

Maps of Adventure: a D&D Accessory by Wizards Team (Paperback - April 22 2008)
*Eberron Survival Guide by Logan Bonner (Hardcover - Mar 18 2008)
Force Unleashed Campaign Guide by Sterling Hershey, Owen K.C. Stephens, and Rodney Thompson (Hardcover - Mar 18 2008)
City of Stormreach by Keith Baker, Nicolas Logue, James Desborough, and C.a. Suleiman (Hardcover - Feb 19 2008)
*Wizard's Presents: World and Monsters by Jennifer Clark Wilkes (Paperback - Jan 15 2008)
Dire Tombs: Dungeon Tiles by James Wyatt (Hardcover - Dec 18 2007)
Elder Evils by Robert J. Schwalb (Hardcover - Dec 18 2007)
Starships of the Galaxy by Owen K.C. Stephens and Rodney Thompson (Hardcover - Dec 18 2007)
*Wizard's Presents: Classes and Races  by Michele Carter (Paperback - Dec 18 2007)
Anauroch: the Empire of Shade by Sean K. Reynolds and Greg a. Vaughan (Hardcover - Nov 13 2007)
The Force Unleashed: a Star Wars Miniatures Game Expansion by Miniatures Team (Misc. Supplies - Nov 13 2007)
Star Wars Galaxy Tiles: a Star Wars Supplement by Miniatures Team (Hardcover - Nov 13 2007)
Desert of Desolation: a Dungeon & Dragons Miniatures Product by Miniatures Team (Misc. Supplies - Nov 6 2007)
D&D Rules Compendium by Chris Sims (Hardcover - Oct 16 2007)
Dragons of Eberron by Keith Baker (Hardcover - Oct 16 2007)
*Dungeon Survival Guide by Bill Slavicsek and Christopher Perkins (Hardcover - Oct 16 2007)
Inn-Fighting: the D&D Tavern Brawl Dice Game by Rob Heinsoo (Hardcover - Oct 16 2007)
D&D Icons: Legend of Drizzt Scenario Pack by Miniatures Team (Misc. Supplies - Sep 25 2007)
Exemplars of Evil: Deadly Foes to Vex Your Heroes  by Robert J. Schwalb (Hardcover - Sep 18 2007)
*Grand History of the Realms by Brian R. James and ed Greenwood (Hardcover - Sep 18 2007)
Lost Caverns of the Underdark: Dungeon Tiles 5 by James Wyatt (Toy - Sep 18 2007)
Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk: a D&D Adventure Supplement by Jason Bulmahn, James Jacobs, and Erik Mona (Hardcover - Aug 14 2007)
Star Wars Miniatures Starter Game Set: a Star Wars Miniatures Starter Game by Miniatures Team (Misc. Supplies - Jul 24 2007)
Monster Manual V: a D&D Supplement by Wizards Team (Hardcover - Jul 17 2007)
Night Below Booster Pack: a D&D Miniatures Product by Wizards Team (Misc. Supplies - Jul 17 2007)
Shadowdale: the Scouring of the Land: a Forgotten Realms Adventure Supplement by Richard Baker, Eric L. Boyd, and Thomas M. Reid (Hardcover - Jul 17 2007)

* * * * *

Hope This Helps,
Flynn


----------



## Nepenthe (Jun 28, 2007)

Flynn said:
			
		

> Hope This Helps,
> Flynn




Mostly just my wallet!

Thanks


----------



## Alnag (Jun 28, 2007)

Is it just me, or is there almost nothing for 2008, and if, than just such fluffy dull pieces as Eberron Survival Guide and Wizard's Presents (formerly Behind the Screen series). What the hell?


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Jun 28, 2007)

Nepenthe said:
			
		

> Mostly just my wallet!
> 
> Thanks




As much as I hate to, I have to agree.

The list thus far seems...sparse.  In particular, I don't see anything I think I'll want until September, minimum.

Now, it is a bit early for 2008 stuff to be out.  In particular, I seem to recall someone mentioning that the information for 1Q08 should be out soon-ish.

Brad


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 28, 2007)

I'm eating my words here, but the Survival Guides are starting to look interesting to me, depending on the quality of the art and prose. I'm guessing a Forgotten Realms Survival Guide is next.


----------



## Nepenthe (Jun 28, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> I'm eating my words here, but the Survival Guides are starting to look interesting to me, depending on the quality of the art and prose. I'm guessing a Forgotten Realms Survival Guide is next.




I think that's called "coping" 

No, really, this list is making me happy that MWP is coming out with a quicker cycle of Dragonlance products, since I would otherwise be biting my nails with my compulsive book-buying habit.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 28, 2007)

Heh, I think it's called "Amazon.ca has a description of the Survival Guide to Eberron that sounds a lot more interesting than the WotC text regarding the dungeon one."


----------



## Shazman (Jun 28, 2007)

Alnag said:
			
		

> Is it just me, or is there almost nothing for 2008, and if, than just such fluffy dull pieces as Eberron Survival Guide and Wizard's Presents (formerly Behind the Screen series). What the hell?




Agreed. At least it's less temptation to splurge on splatbooks next year.


----------



## Broccli_Head (Jun 29, 2007)

Well maybe the Stormreach book or Anauroch book will save the year


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

*Wizards of the Coast 2008 Spring Catalog*

We just received the *Wizards of the Coast 2008 Spring Catalog*. Most of the titles have already been covered here, but I will give you what I can.

*Fiction*
*The Legend of Drizzt Collector's Edition, Book I* Hardcover repackaging of _Homeland_, _Exile_ and _Sojourn_. $27.95 Feb 5, 2008

*The Legend of Drizzt Collectors Edition, Book II* Hardcover repackaging of _Streams of Silver_, _The Crystal Shard_ and _Halflings Gem_. $27.95 March 4, 2008

*Sea of Swords The Legend of Drizzt, Book XIII* Hardcover recover. $25.95 March 8, 2008

*Black Crusade* A new _Ravenloft_ trade paperback novel by Ari Marmell. $12.95 March 4, 2008

*Firefly Rain* is a modern day supernatural mystery hardcover by Richard Dansky. $21.95 Jan 8, 2008

*Last Dragon* is a fantasy trade paperback by J.M. McDermott. $14.95 Feb 5, 2008

*The Man on the Ceiling* is a horror (?) trade paperback by Mellanie Tem and Steve Rasnic Tem. $14.95 March 4, 2008

*Devil's Cape* is described as "_Heroes _ with a Southern Gothic edge. Trade paperback by Rob Rogers. $14.95 April 1, 2008

*Roleplaying Games* 

*D&D* *Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters* A D&D accessory (?) that gives a behind-the-curtain glimpse into the making of D&D. 96 page softcover, $19.95 Jan 15, 2008

*D&D City of Stormreach* is an Eberron supplement describing the city, with adventure hooks, maps, and adversaries. 160 page hardcover, $29.95 Feb 19, 2008

*Star Wars Gamemaster Screen and Character Sheets* contains a 4-panel screen and 32 double-sided character sheets. $14.95 Feb 19, 2008

*D&D Mysterious Lairs Dungeon Tiles* terrain tiles of dungeons, temples, and monster lairs. 6 double-sided heavy cardstock sheets, $9.95 March 18, 2008

*D&D Eberron Survival Guide* "A lavishly illustrated 64-page visual guide to the world of Eberron" and it  "is an excellent addition to your library or coffee table." 64 page hardcover, $19.95 March 18, 2008

*Star Wars The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide* is a Star Wars rpg supplement inspired by the video game of the same name. It is a campaign stting during the period between Episode III and Episode IV. 224 page hardcover, $34.95 March 18, 2008

*D&D Keep on the Shadowfell* adventure for levels 1-3 includes 1 or 3 double-sided poster maps. 96 page softcover, $29.95 April 15, 2008

*Star Wars Imperial Outposts: Galaxy Tiles* 6 double-sided die-cut heavy cardstock sheets of terrain tiles. $12.95 April 15, 2008

*Miniatures* 
*Axis & Allies 1939-1945 Starter* a 2-player starter set contains 10 minis, rules and maps. $16.99 Jan 8, 2008

*Axis & Allies 1939-1945 Booster Pack* contains 5 figures from a set of 60. $10.99 Jan 8, 2008

*Axis & Allies War at Sea Starter* a 2-player starter set contains 9 prepainted ship, rules and maps. $24.99 Jan 8, 2008

*Axis & Allies War at Sea Booster Pack* contains 5 ships from a set of 64. $14.99 Jan 8, 2008

*Star Wars Legacy of the Force Booster Pack* contains 7 figures from a set featuring characters from the _Legacy_ comic book series. $14.99 March 7, 2008

*D&D Miniatures Game Starter Set* contains 5 non-random pre-painted figures, cards, 2 battle grids, and rules. Figures come from *Dungeons of Dread * series. $19.99 April 8, 2008

*D&D Dungeons of Dread Booster Pack* contains 8 random prepainted figs. $14.99 April 8, 2008


Well that's it. Everything that is listed as new in the catalog.


----------



## kilamanjaro (Jul 18, 2007)

What's on the boosters for Dungeons of Dread and the new starter set?  If you don't mind me asking.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 18, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> *Devil's Cape* is described as "_Heroes _ with a Southern Gothic edge. Trade paperback by Rob Rogers. $14.95 April 1, 2008



Interesting. Is WotC getting back into superheroes? I might pick this up for my M&M Paragons campaign.



> *D&D Keep on the Shadowfell* adventure for levels 1-3 includes 1 or 3 double-sided poster maps. 96 page softcover, $29.95 April 15, 2008



Interesting. They have to be consciously giving a shout-out to B2 with that name. What the heck is a Shadowfell, though?


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

kilamanjaro said:
			
		

> What's on the boosters for Dungeons of Dread and the new starter set?  If you don't mind me asking.



The starter set contains a Large Green Dragon, Human Sellsword, Elf Warlock, Dwarf Battlemaster, and Exiled Drow Fighter. The rules have been updated for faster play in an easy-to-reference format. The starter is in a clear blister package. No theme is given for this set, other than it will include some figures drawn from key 2008 D&D titles. The catalog contains no pictures for the D&D minis, not even cover art.


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Interesting. They have to be consciously giving a shout-out to B2 with that name. What the heck is a Shadowfell, though?



From the catalog:



> The Town of Winterhaven stands watch over a ruined keep that was once a bastion of good in the realm. This keep overlooks the Shadow Rift, a dark scar in the world that was once a gateway to the Shadowfell but has been dormant for many years. Now, an evil cleric of Orcus, Demon Lord of the Undead, seeks to re-open the gate, and the only thing standing in his way is a small yet determined band of heroes.



BTW, in one paragraph, the description says this module contains 3 double-sided poster maps, but in 2 other locations it says just one. Actually, one place says 1 poster map, the other says one double-sided poster maps.


----------



## Hussar (Jul 18, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> From the catalog:
> 
> 
> BTW, in one paragraph, the description says this module contains 3 double-sided poster maps, but in 2 other locations it says just one. Actually, one place says 1 poster map, the other says one double-sided poster maps.




That sound groovy.  Cool.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 18, 2007)

YAY!  2008 sees some Orcus love!


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 18, 2007)

> D&D Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters A D&D accessory (?) that gives a behind-the-curtain glimpse into the making of D&D. 96 page softcover, $19.95 Jan 15, 2008




The cynic in me says this is a glimpse behind 3.5 so that we understand what 4.0 is about.




> D&D City of Stormreach is an Eberron supplement describing the city, with adventure hooks, maps, and adversaries. 160 page hardcover, $29.95 Feb 19, 2008




Probably light on crunch, able to move between editions with no problem.




> Star Wars Gamemaster Screen and Character Sheets contains a 4-panel screen and 32 double-sided character sheets. $14.95 Feb 19, 2008




No brainer product for a new game.




> D&D Mysterious Lairs Dungeon Tiles terrain tiles of dungeons, temples, and monster lairs. 6 double-sided heavy cardstock sheets, $9.95 March 18, 2008




Tiles are useful for any edition.




> D&D Eberron Survival Guide "A lavishly illustrated 64-page visual guide to the world of Eberron" and it "is an excellent addition to your library or coffee table." 64 page hardcover, $19.95 March 18, 2008




I bet this is a fiction book in the style of several of Warhammer's awesome illustread books and not an actual RPG product.




> Star Wars The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide is a Star Wars rpg supplement inspired by the video game of the same name. It is a campaign stting during the period between Episode III and Episode IV. 224 page hardcover, $34.95 March 18, 2008




Sounds like a good media tie in.




> D&D Keep on the Shadowfell adventure for levels 1-3 includes 1 or 3 double-sided poster maps. 96 page softcover, $29.95 April 15, 2008



 For for 3 double-sided maps, we lose hardcover format and 64 pages eh?



> Star Wars Imperial Outposts: Galaxy Tiles 6 double-sided die-cut heavy cardstock sheets of terrain tiles. $12.95 April 15, 2008




Tiles again.

The cynic in me says 4th ed soon.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 18, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> The cynic in me says 4th ed soon.



How long has the cynic in you been saying that?


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 18, 2007)

Whiz,

Every since I knew him, he's got cynic inside him. 

*waits around to be proven that it's actually 2009 not 2008 for 4th edition*


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> How long has the cynic in you been saying that?




Not that long actually. It wasn't until I took a serious look at what's been coming down the pipeline.

At first I thought, "Well cool, they're finally supporting the game system that they've spent all this time building up." With all the options and other goods, people need adventurers. With all the mini support, tiles are a natural add on.

But to see similiar products with either low shelf life expectancy such as adventurers and books designed for reading, not gaming, and tiles useful for any edition... 8-ball says future uncertain, check again later.

Don't get me wrong, I could be completely misreading it. BUt compare the list here with the list of say two years ago and I think in terms of do it yourself gaming material, especially with the dearth of info on the 'DI', I'd be surprised if 4th ed isn't announced at Gen Con.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 18, 2007)

*is only waiting to see what the Paizo/Necromancer Games merge announcements will be from GenCon*

If any...


----------



## MerricB (Jul 18, 2007)

The Optimist also thinks 4e is coming soon. 

Cheers!


----------



## Imaro (Jul 18, 2007)

Wow...that lineup doesn't really excite me at all (except for the Star Wars stuff).  I guess the adventure could be good...but 96 page softcover for $30 bucks(and this is certainly something I could of used in say...2003) but this late in the game...I'll definitely be waiting till someone reviews it before deciding to drop or not drop the cash.  

I guess it's gonna be a Star Wars year for me, because I don't play in Eberron and I'm not interested enough in the thoughts behind D&D to spend $20 to read about it.  I will probably be buying one or two cases of Legacy boosters (because I really like the comic series, though I find it strange they wouldn't release a "Dark Times" set to coincide with the Unleashed era.  ).  This will be the first year I'm really not at least interested in something for D&D.  IMHO, mostly a meh release schedule, as far as D&D, so far.


----------



## Thurbane (Jul 18, 2007)

-duplicate-


----------



## Thurbane (Jul 18, 2007)

> D&D Miniatures Game Starter Set contains 5 non-random pre-painted figures, cards, 2 battle grids, and rules. Figures come from Dungeons of Dread series. $19.99 April 8, 2008



5 non-random for $19.99? Pass.


----------



## CryHavoc (Jul 18, 2007)

What a really long list of absolute rubbish.  I'm actually hoping 4e is soon, because there is no excuse for releasing a bunch of crap like this otherwise...


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

I expected the weak rpg schedule, following a similarly weak schedule for late 2007. But I was surprised at the lack of new D&D fiction. Only 1 new Ravenloft novel. The others are reprints or not D&D related.


----------



## 3catcircus (Jul 18, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> It's getting ridiculous, honestly. I can't pick up a Realms novel without some RSE happening in it anymore. It's not even about the characters in the novels anymore, it's about them stopping, cushioning, or failing from stopping the RSE.
> 
> *Isn't that something PCs in the Forgotten Realms GAME is supposed to be doing!?*
> 
> ...




It is a matter of the "You got your novel in my RPG! *You* got your RPG in my novel!" issue. Bottom line - I don't want the RPG setting to have to conform to the novels.  The novels should conform to the RPG setting.


----------



## 3catcircus (Jul 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> My concern about the Lolth stuff is that the players can't participate in it, in any way. At least with Myth Drannor, an elf group can participate in clearing part of the ruins, get involved in the politics of the new city and so on.
> 
> An event where players are forced to be spectators is crappy DMing and shouldn't be excused when it happens in a novel, either, since those spill over into the game setting.




Hmm - who says you need to use CotSQ as the vehicle for "Lolth's Big Dig"?  An *ideal* set of adventures to allow the PCs to participate is the T1-4/A1-4/GDQ1-7 series of old school modules. Just set the campaign earlier than "present" by about a year or so and let them have at it. 

More importantly, who says the Silence of Lolth thing has to go down the way they described in the novels?  Rather than it being her putting the wheels on her double-wide and driving to a new home, it could simply be that *your* players managed to have their PCs kill her avatar on her home plane (in GDQ1-7), banishing her from contact with the Prime for xx number of years?


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 18, 2007)

3cat,

Yeah I'd like to rewrite the Silence so that entire drow pantheon bites the big one and then the drow are left worshipping the Archfiends instead!


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 18, 2007)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Hmm - who says you need to use CotSQ as the vehicle for "Lolth's Big Dig"?  An *ideal* set of adventures to allow the PCs to participate is the T1-4/A1-4/GDQ1-7 series of old school modules. Just set the campaign earlier than "present" by about a year or so and let them have at it.



OK. That doesn't in any way address my problem with Lolth's Silence, though, which is what the module is supposed to be about, sort of.



> More importantly, who says the Silence of Lolth thing has to go down the way they described in the novels?  Rather than it being her putting the wheels on her double-wide and driving to a new home, it could simply be that *your* players managed to have their PCs kill her avatar on her home plane (in GDQ1-7), banishing her from contact with the Prime for xx number of years?



Which is, again, not what Spider Queen is about. It's a lot BETTER than City of the Spider Queen, since it actually involves players in the coolness, rather than giving them the job of sweeping up afterward.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 18, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> 3cat,
> 
> Yeah I'd like to rewrite the Silence so that entire drow pantheon bites the big one and then the drow are left worshipping the Archfiends instead!




They're not worthy - especially not that fat undead lover    
Archfiends would be problematic unless they get the status of gods (because you need a patron deity in the Realms)

But it looks as if in the coming months/years, the drow pantheon will shrink (and has already shrunk recently).


----------



## Nepenthe (Jul 18, 2007)

Looks like I'll be able to invest into some new speaker for my home theatre...  

Not continuing the Dragonlance license and then coming out with a release list like that is... odd, if it's not a sign of a new edition. (Not trying to overemphasise the meaning of the Dragonlance license, just that it's not like it would have interfered with any of the products on THAT list).


----------



## Razz (Jul 18, 2007)

That's a really weak product line for 2008 for D&D products not involving adventures, "behind the screen", and tiles.

I'm guessing that's not the "whole list". Actually, I'm hoping that wasn't the whole list. Hopefully the entire catalog will be released sometime later.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 18, 2007)

Thanks for posting the catalogue, Thalmin!


I'm looking forward to the dungeon tiles, but not too much else on that list excited me.  Of course, it's only 3 months' worth, so hopefully things will pick up after that.


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

It covers 4 months, not 3. And the September to December 2007 catalog isn't much better. Eight months with not enough D&D goodness for three months.


----------



## TerraDave (Jul 18, 2007)

*I have said it before*



			
				thalmin said:
			
		

> We just received the *Wizards of the Coast 2008 Spring Catalog*. Most of the titles have already been covered here, but I will give you what I can.
> 
> _SNIP: fiction and non-D&D_
> 
> ...




Umm, really, I know its getting old, but this sort of schedule probably does mean one thing...think of it like this, you will be getting all sorts of new books starting in August, they will just have the same titles as the books you already have. But at least they (hopefully) will have some new art. 

I am curious about the miniture starter set, and if this will be connected to the new edition that is coming.


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

WotC has done about one starter set about every 4 booster sets, or close to 1 a year, so this is on schedule. Since the combat is based on D&D combat, it may tell us something.

As a retailer I am concerned a little about the weak schedule, but I also read this as a blockbuster summer 2008. Well, in just a month we should know a lot more.


----------



## TwoSix (Jul 18, 2007)

*Question*

Out of curiousity, does anyone remember what the release schedule for 1e looked like in 1988, just before 2e got released?


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

If I remember correctly, they had a pretty full schedule, but at that time it was always module heavy. But I think there were a number of product cancellations from that schedule. Wish I had those catalogs handy. Also, TSR said that 2E would be pretty much compatible with 1E.
The situation was very different with the move to 3E.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 18, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> WotC has done about one starter set about every 4 booster sets, or close to 1 a year, so this is on schedule.




A little late, actually: It started out with Starter, 3x Expansion, rinse and repeat.

1st Set was Harbinger
5th Set was Aberrations
9th Set was Wardrums
All three were starters
13th Set is Night Below, but it isn't a starter
Set 14 (Deserts of Desolation) isn't one, either.

It's 8 months late.

Plus, there's Only 5 figures for 20 bucks? Even with the maps and stuff, that isn't very good.

And "Dungeons of Dread"? Another dungeon-like set so shortly after Night Below? Maybe all the drow that should have been in NB are hiding in there!


----------



## MerricB (Jul 18, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Plus, there's Only 5 figures for 20 bucks? Even with the maps and stuff, that isn't very good.




Hmm.

8 figures for $15, 1 rare + 7 other.
5 figures + maps + rules for $20, 1 rare + 4 other.

It's not too far off.

Cheers!


----------



## thalmin (Jul 18, 2007)

Kinda depends whether the other figs are commons or uncommons.


----------



## Alisair Longreach (Jul 18, 2007)

The four non-rare minis in the next starter set are probably uncommons as adventurer type minis in the other sets usually have been uncommons.


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 18, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> And "Dungeons of Dread"? Another dungeon-like set so shortly after Night Below? Maybe all the drow that should have been in NB are hiding in there!




Titles of sets don't really mean much.  Blood War had only 12 of 60 figures that would actually be involved in the Blood War (and for 2 of those I'm streching it a bit - fiendish snake and demonic gnoll priestess).  (Though about 1/2 the set could be considered extraplanar.)


----------



## Athenon (Jul 18, 2007)

I'm a little annoyed that there are no new Forgotten Realms products in 2008.  Whether or not _you_ like the setting (I agree about most of the common complaints), lots of us love it and will always be interested in it.

Seeing that has pretty much convinced me that I'm going to be sitting in a D&D seminar at Gen Con hearing about the release of 4E (in exactly a month!).


----------



## Echohawk (Jul 18, 2007)

TwoSix said:
			
		

> Out of curiousity, does anyone remember what the release schedule for 1e looked like in 1988, just before 2e got released?




Yes. Note that some of these products are D&D products, rather than AD&D products:

1988-09	City System
1988-09	Five Shires (GAZ8)
1988-09	Greyhawk Adventures
1988-09	Savage Frontier (FR5)
1988-10	Dungeon Master's Design Kit
1988-11	Kara-Tur: The Eastern Realms
1988-11	Minrothad Guilds (GAZ9)
1988-12	Dreams of the Red Wizards (FR6)
1988-12	World of Krynn (DL16)
1988-12	Mertwig's Maze Gamefolio
1989-01	Lords of Darkness (REF5)
1989-01	Mad Monkey vs. the Dragon Claw (OA5)
1989-01	Orcs of Thar (GAZ10)
1989-02	In Search of Dragons (DLE1)
1989-03	Fate of Istus (WG8)
1989-03	Hall of Heroes (FR7)
1989-03	Republic of Darokin (GAZ11)
1989-04	Curse of the Azure Bonds (FRC2)
1989-04	Gargoyle (WG9)
1989-04	Player's Handbook (2nd Edition)

But I think a more interesting comparison is the release schedule just before the release of 3rd Edition:

2000-01	Vortex of Madness and Other Planar Perils
2000-02	Priest's Spell Compendium, Volume Three
2000-02	Rise of the Titans
2000-02	Secrets of the Magister
2000-03	Apocalypse Stone
2000-03	Diablo II: The Awakening
2000-04	Slavers
2000-04	Van Richten's Monster Hunter's Compendium, Volume Three
2000-05	Diablo II Adventure Game
2000-05	Dungeon of Death
2000-05	Reverse Dungeon
2000-06	Cloak & Dagger
2000-06	Die Vecna Die!
2000-07	Volo's Guide to Baldur's Gate II
2000-08	Player's Handbook (3rd Edition)


----------



## Nepenthe (Jul 18, 2007)

The release of a CRPG tie-in (Curse of the Azure Bonds, Volo's Guide to BG II) thus heralds the immediate arrival of a new edition.

Where's my Bhaalspawn sourcebook?


----------



## TerraDave (Jul 18, 2007)

So the only real crunchy thing released before 3ed was a compendium...


----------



## jodyjohnson (Jul 18, 2007)

I think it is likely more an indicator of how much crunch is being moved to the DI.

The release list is basically stuff that's it is not worth pirating or not piratable (miniatures, cardstock dungeon tiles, fluff books, and adventures with large printed maps).

The SW stuff is hard cover setting support the new game needs.

I expect most of the new crunch and especially the alternative rules and ooptional rules to be rolled out in DI supplements - namely Dragon.


----------



## TerraDave (Jul 18, 2007)

I agree, its the serious alternative hypothesis. 

But why not do a new edition while you are at it?


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 18, 2007)

Either way, the continuing absence of Complete Warrior II is a puzzler. Did the first volume sell particularly poorly, compared to the others?


----------



## qstor (Jul 18, 2007)

Savage Wombat said:
			
		

> Someone promised me Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.  Me want.
> 
> Is there an actual date, or is this still rumorware?





I wanna see Expedition Against the Giants 

Mike


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 18, 2007)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> I think it is likely more an indicator of how much crunch is being moved to the DI.




Well, in that case they can keep it. I'll switch to a game where I can get books.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 18, 2007)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> Titles of sets don't really mean much.  Blood War had only 12 of 60 figures that would actually be involved in the Blood War (and for 2 of those I'm streching it a bit - fiendish snake and demonic gnoll priestess).  (Though about 1/2 the set could be considered extraplanar.)




The number of figures that are somehow related to the set theme went up in the last couple of sets.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 18, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Hmm.
> 
> 8 figures for $15, 1 rare + 7 other.
> 5 figures + maps + rules for $20, 1 rare + 4 other.
> ...




Compared to the last starter, which had 12 figures (1 rare and 11 others) plus maps and all that, it is quite a difference - less than half!


----------



## Kristian Serrano (Jul 18, 2007)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> I think it is likely more an indicator of how much crunch is being moved to the DI.
> 
> The release list is basically stuff that's it is not worth pirating or not piratable (miniatures, cardstock dungeon tiles, fluff books, and adventures with large printed maps).
> 
> ...



Hmmm... subscribe to an online collection of all WotC D&D material from which you can search, pick, and compile rather than buy books without indexes through which you have to hunt for that one piece of information you need? There's some appeal to that. I'd rather be able to compile electronic copies rather than deal with books that are bulky and have pages wasted on content that I will never use.

Edit: For the record, I'm of the opinion that we will see a new edition next summer, and I'm not one to get into rumors of 4e coming. If you notice, all of Amazon's 3e D&D listings have been relabeled as 3.0 or 3.5 D&D accordingly. This is a good setup if you're planning to release a new edition and want to minimize confusion between versions.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 18, 2007)

amaril said:
			
		

> Hmmm... subscribe to an online collection of all WotC D&D material from which you can search, pick, and compile rather than buy books without indexes through which you have to hunt for that one piece of information you need? There's some appeal to that. I'd rather be able to compile electronic copies rather than deal with books that are bulky and have pages wasted on content that I will never use.




An indexed database of material has its appeal, but to me, that's only as an addition to the books. I want books, stuff I can use without a computer.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 18, 2007)

Wow, where is all the stuff? There's almost nothing RPG related in the announced product list for the next 8 months! If they aren't working on 4E or moving all the content to on-line, they might as well start laying off employees - as they aren't being very productive.


----------



## iwarrior-poet (Jul 18, 2007)

thalmin said:
			
		

> We just received the *Wizards of the Coast 2008 Spring Catalog*. Most of the titles have already been covered here, but I will give you what I can.
> 
> *Fiction*
> *The Legend of Drizzt Collector's Edition, Book I* Hardcover repackaging of _Homeland_, _Exile_ and _Sojourn_. $27.95 Feb 5, 2008
> ...




Hmmpff---
Pretty slim in terms of new D+D stuff---looks like they are gearing up for the dreaded 4.0...


----------



## Razz (Jul 18, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Either way, the continuing absence of Complete Warrior II is a puzzler. Did the first volume sell particularly poorly, compared to the others?




That has me concerned, too. Why is this one last Complete book taking so long to release? (well, a Complete Psionic 2 would technically be the last if one counts that).

I think the real question is, is Thalmin's catalog fully up to date or was the catalog only previewing what it was able to preview?

What's even more strange is I remember distinctly reading the posts of a couple of WotC authors saying they have 2008 products all set to go and are very excited about what's coming...whatever that means


----------



## Kristian Serrano (Jul 18, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> What's even more strange is I remember distinctly reading the posts of a couple of WotC authors saying they have 2008 products all set to go and are very excited about what's coming...whatever that means



A revision with shiny, newly tweaked rules?


----------



## dmccoy1693 (Jul 18, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> What's even more strange is I remember distinctly reading the posts of a couple of WotC authors saying they have 2008 products all set to go and are very excited about what's coming...whatever that means




What?  Did you forget about the 96 page softcover adventure that costs more then the whole of the greyhawk setting?  I can see why they'd be excited about that.


----------



## Remathilis (Jul 18, 2007)

Well, if they announce it at the Big D&D fest in Jan, it would make a whole lot of sense...

* Not putting out new "crunchy" material, but instead focusing on play aids that can be used between editions.
* Want a preview of combat? Grab DDM!
* Want sneak previews of the next edition? Subscribe to DI!
* Slap down one or two mega-modules in May-July, then...

FOURTH EDITION: GEN-CON 2008!

Fill August/Sept with Core books, necessities (DM screen, charsheets, "basic" mini set) and the cycle begins anew...


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jul 18, 2007)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> * Want a preview of combat? Grab DDM!



Hooray for cliches that have no actual basis in reality!


----------



## mattcolville (Jul 18, 2007)

jodyjohnson said:
			
		

> I think it is likely more an indicator of how much crunch is being moved to the DI.




I...I HOPE that's true. I'd pay good money for a D.I. that took the place of books. One that let me use the rules via webtools rather than just read them online and then get an Excel sheet to do the work for me.

So, I'm crossing my fingers for the D.I..


----------



## Felon (Jul 18, 2007)

Man, anybody else amused here?

We used to get folks complaining about the book-a-month club approach. Now it's...where's my book fix? Gotta have m-m-my book fix! A Monster Manual VI, another Complete book, I'll even take another C-c-compendium of stuff I already go! Come on, break off a piece fo' me!

Not that I'm not addicted myself, mind you.


----------



## johnnype (Jul 18, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Man, anybody else amused here?
> 
> We used to get folks complaining about the book-a-month club approach. Now it's...where's my book fix? Gotta have m-m-my book fix! A Monster Manual VI, another Complete book, I'll even take another C-c-compendium of stuff I already go! Come on, break off a piece fo' me!
> 
> Not that I'm not addicted myself, mind you.



Chances are you are talking about two different groups of people.


----------



## Olaf the Stout (Jul 19, 2007)

Thurbane said:
			
		

> 5 non-random for $19.99? Pass.




Keep in mind that one of the minis is a Large Green Dragon.  That adds a fair bit to the value.  Personally I don't know why they didn't go for a Large Red Dragon myself.  A LRD is just so iconic.  I imagine that you would get a lot of people who had never bought minis before buying it just to get a Large Red Dragon.

Olaf the Stout


----------



## MerricB (Jul 19, 2007)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:
			
		

> Either way, the continuing absence of Complete Warrior II is a puzzler. Did the first volume sell particularly poorly, compared to the others?




Probably not, but...

Player's Handbook II is Complete Warrior II. Even more so, since it actually helped fighters. 

Cheers!


----------



## MerricB (Jul 19, 2007)

It's been confirmed that the price is actually $14.99 for the Starter, and the 5 minis won't appear elsewhere. 

Cheers!


----------



## Kristian Serrano (Jul 19, 2007)

johnnype said:
			
		

> Chances are you are talking about two different groups of people.



Very much so, I actually looked forward to purchasing one book a month. It was a cheap allowance of $20 a month (Amazon.com) for something to add value to my campaign and personal entertainment.


----------



## JoeGKushner (Jul 19, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Man, anybody else amused here?
> 
> We used to get folks complaining about the book-a-month club approach. Now it's...where's my book fix? Gotta have m-m-my book fix! A Monster Manual VI, another Complete book, I'll even take another C-c-compendium of stuff I already go! Come on, break off a piece fo' me!
> 
> Not that I'm not addicted myself, mind you.




Not me. I've been clamoring for a PrC and a Feat Compendium for a while now. FIgure those would be easy sellers. Might give 'em a chance to tweak certain PrCs (eldrich knight cough cough) that looked good initially but have been outclassed by every other similiar PrC since then.


----------



## DiamondB (Jul 19, 2007)

Well, guess my bank account is safe for the beginning of next year.  Well, at least when it comes to anything new getting added to my want list.  Now to just get caught up on the backlog.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 19, 2007)

Kae'yoss,

Yeah because their current pantheon is SO stable...


----------



## thalmin (Jul 19, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> That has me concerned, too. Why is this one last Complete book taking so long to release? (well, a Complete Psionic 2 would technically be the last if one counts that).
> 
> I think the real question is, is Thalmin's catalog fully up to date or was the catalog only previewing what it was able to preview?
> 
> What's even more strange is I remember distinctly reading the posts of a couple of WotC authors saying they have 2008 products all set to go and are very excited about what's coming...whatever that means



The catalog should be current, it was just released. But it does seem incomplete, if only because it lists NO mass market books (read standard Paperbacks.) And the catalog only covers January through April. It is possible that there is more to be released in the first 4 months in regards to gaming books, but not for anything substantial. The big boxes need more lead time for their orders. 
The timing is right for a big announcement at Gen Con about major new releases for next summer.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 19, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Kae'yoss,
> 
> Yeah because their current pantheon is SO stable...




I'll just wait a couple of months so I can ask "what pantheon"? Apparently there's one Author going "My name is Smedman. Lisa Smedman" for it sure seems that she has the license to kill.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 19, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Not me. I've been clamoring for a PrC and a Feat Compendium




Especially the feat compendium. I'd have thought that this was a no-brainer!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 19, 2007)

MerricB said:
			
		

> It's been confirmed that the price is actually $14.99 for the Starter, and the 5 minis won't appear elsewhere.




Now we're talking. So that dragon's not the old LGD?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 19, 2007)

Felon said:
			
		

> Man, anybody else amused here?
> 
> We used to get folks complaining about the book-a-month club approach.




Yeah, weird. It's like both approaches have their fans or something.    

I'll second the opinion that they're not the same people. 

Besides, this will also involve monthly payments, and I somehow don't think that it will be cheap.


----------



## MerricB (Jul 19, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Now we're talking. So that dragon's not the old LGD?




Apparently. Don't know about the stats, either.

Cheers!


----------



## Thurbane (Jul 19, 2007)

Olaf the Stout said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that one of the minis is a Large Green Dragon.  That adds a fair bit to the value.  Personally I don't know why they didn't go for a Large Red Dragon myself.  A LRD is just so iconic.  I imagine that you would get a lot of people who had never bought minis before buying it just to get a Large Red Dragon.
> 
> Olaf the Stout



Ah, well that makes it a little more palitable.


----------



## Razz (Jul 19, 2007)

I'm thinking the 2008 line will be fully premiered at Gen Con, like last year was. Someone pointed out a book that "looks like another Monster Manual" and they were right, it was MMV.

Maybe those who go to GenCon can alert us to exactly what will be coming out in 2008.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jul 19, 2007)

I thought Linnae confirmed they won't be appearing in the set that releases at the same time, not that they won't be appearing elsewhere (or that they have not already appeared).


----------



## thalmin (Jul 19, 2007)

I just confirmed a big error in the catalog. The listings for _Axis & Allies War at Sea Starter _ and _Booster_ are the current products, same catalog numbers and everything. They are not new.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 20, 2007)

Kae'yoss,

Yeah well if she's going to kill of the Drow panethon, the LEAST she can do is make it so the Archfiends get some of their souls.

*would point out that Faiths and Pantheons had information for allowing the Archfiends to grant spells*


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 20, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Kae'yoss,
> 
> Yeah well if she's going to kill of the Drow panethon, the LEAST she can do is make it so the Archfiends get some of their souls.
> 
> *would point out that Faiths and Pantheons had information for allowing the Archfiends to grant spells*




Nah, they get nil. Corellon cashes them all in.


----------



## Hellcow (Jul 20, 2007)

*Eberron Novels*

Just as a note:

I've seen a number of posts on this board addressing the fact that in Eberron, the novels "Aren't canon." 

I don't know if that's actually true. 

I know it's true in MY novels, because there's an important magic item which appears in _Secrets of Xen'drik_ which intentionally says nothing about the events surrounding it in its appearance in _The Dreaming Dark_ trilogy. 

For me, one of the foundational aspects of Eberron since the very begining is that if the world is a novel or a movie, *your PCs are the heroes*. I don't want you overshadowed by novel characters. For me, events in a novel should serve as inspiration; this COULD happen in my campaign, but MY players would be the hero. Thus the item in SoX/TDD - I want YOUR players to be able to get that artifact, and the story that evolves as a result may be entirely different from what happens in _The Shattered Land_. 

But that's MY preference. I've said in a lot of places that it's what I prefer, and that it's how *I* will write things. But I don't know that WotC itself has even made this official. 

Onto the question of RSE, and "Does a setting need RSE in novels to succeed"... in my opinion, a story doesn't need to be earth-shattering to be successful. The original one sentence description of Eberron was "_Lord of the Rings_ meets _Raiders of the Lost Ark_ and _The Maltese Falcon_."

I like all three of those stories, and each one is completely different. 

_The Maltese Falcon_ is ENTIRELY self-contained. It affects the lives of a half-dozen fairly amoral people. No one else in the city, let alone the world, is affected by the outcome of the story. _But it's a great story._ While I certainly wouldn't put my own writing skills on that level, for me _City of Towers_ and "Principles of Fire" all fall into this category - a few days in the lives of people in Sharn. And "Principles of Fire" is my personal favorite of everything I've written to this point. 

_Raiders of the Lost Ark_ is the "Toys in the Box" story. It DOES involve a threat to the entire world: what could happen if the Nazis are able to harness the amazing powers of the Ark? But in the end (shocking spoilers ahead!) they fail, and the Ark is taken away by "Top Men". It's dramatic, it's over the top... and ultimately, no one in the world knows about it except for Indy and Marian. That's the remaining two novels of _The Dreaming Dark_. You COULD decide to make them canon, and it still wouldn't require you to throw out anything in the ECS. It presents an EXPANDED threat... but a threat that the rest of the world knows nothing about. 

Finally, we have _Lords of the Rings_ - the true, world-shaking, epic series. I'm not opposed to events of this magnitude happening in Eberron. But when they happen, I want YOU to be driving them. Even if you aren't the prime movers, I at least want you to be at the heart of the action. Eberron is based on that idea that YOU are among the most remarkable people of the age, whether you are heroes our villains. 

As a result, *I* prefer to write stories closer to _Raiders_ or _The Maltese Falcon_. I want novels to INSPIRE your adventures; I don't want them to end up making your characters sit on the sidelines while someone else makes a real difference in the world.


----------



## Felon (Jul 20, 2007)

JoeGKushner said:
			
		

> Not me. I've been clamoring for a PrC and a Feat Compendium for a while now. FIgure those would be easy sellers. Might give 'em a chance to tweak certain PrCs (eldrich knight cough cough) that looked good initially but have been outclassed by every other similiar PrC since then.




I'm with you on the feat compendium. They could open with a couple of feat-oriented prestige classes or alternate class features that would allow characters other than fighters an official way to get a nice supply of bonus feats.

But we get a Rules Compendium. If 4e is really on the way, that seems like a damn odd thing to put out. I mean, a compendium for soon-to-be-obsolete rules? I think that would adversely affect sales just a little bit....


----------



## Felon (Jul 20, 2007)

Whoops. Deleted.


----------



## takasi (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks for the words of wisdom Keith.

On a somewhat related sidenote (and probably better for a discussion elsewhere) is it just me or do most of the adventures from Dungeon and novels from WotC lean more towards the Maltese Falcon, murder-mystery noire side and less towards the over-the-top pulpy Indy action?  

I like my Eberron wild and wacky.  Where one scene after the other has you saying "No way!  Did that just happen?  Wow!"  Richard Lee Byers, IMO, does a great job of designing stories like that and I hope that one day he writes an Eberron series.  I loved the Rogue Dragon series and Unclean, but I think he's also the most like to advance the world setting by introducing world-shaking events.


----------



## Razz (Jul 21, 2007)

Hellcow said:
			
		

> As a result, *I* prefer to write stories closer to _Raiders_ or _The Maltese Falcon_. I want novels to INSPIRE your adventures; I don't want them to end up making your characters sit on the sidelines while someone else makes a real difference in the world.




If only the *Forgotten Realms* authors thought like you did when writing their FR novels. I wouldn't be so saddened at the sudden surge of RSE chaos happening in it now.


----------



## Glyfair (Jul 21, 2007)

takasi said:
			
		

> On a somewhat related sidenote (and probably better for a discussion elsewhere) is it just me or do most of the adventures from Dungeon and novels from WotC lean more towards the Maltese Falcon, murder-mystery noire side and less towards the over-the-top pulpy Indy action?




Without addressing the myriad of novels, here are my "pigeonholing" of the Dungeon adventures.

“The Queen with Burning Eyes” - Dungeon crawl (this is as a player and I can't speak to the writing)
“Steel Shadows” - definitely noir with a pulpish ending
“Fallen Angel” - nice noirish atmosphere, but mostly dungeon crawl
“The Shards of Eberron, Part 1: Crypt of Crimson Stars" - Pulp & dungeon crawl
“The Shards of Eberron, Part 2: Temple of the Scorpion God” - pulp
“The Shards of Eberron, Part 3: Pit of the Fire Lord” - dungeon crawl
“Murder in Oakbridge” - noir (more mystery than noir)
"Chimes at Midnight" - pure pulp with some noir elements (sort of like a good Batmas story)
"Tensions Rising" - pulpish, dungeon crawl
"Riding the Rail" - pulpish (?)
"The Aundairian Job" - noir

Seems like a good mix of pulp and noir to me.  Admittedly, the pulp elements vary.  Crypt of Crimson Stars has a bit of the Lost World mixed with the Mummy.  Temple of the Scorpion God has a bit of "Indiana Jones & the Temple of Doom."  "Chimes at Midnight" is heroic pulp ala Doc Savage and the Shadow.


----------



## howandwhy99 (Jul 21, 2007)

Thanks for the excellent explanation Mr. Baker.  We appreciate your posting.  I 100% agree with your take on the novels.


----------



## Stereofm (Jul 21, 2007)

mattcolville said:
			
		

> I...I HOPE that's true. I'd pay good money for a D.I. that took the place of books. One that let me use the rules via webtools rather than just read them online and then get an Excel sheet to do the work for me.
> 
> So, I'm crossing my fingers for the D.I..




Well, I'm not of your opinion about the DI... 

I would not pay, no I WILL not pay anything to a ugly green brain. And I don't want to read anything online if I ever can avoid it. However, I see some merit in your point : having a decent character creation utility is way too long overdue.

The CD-ROM in the 3.0 PHB was a real good idea. so having something online might be a good idea. Only as long as everything else stays on paper. Including the mags.


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 22, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> If only the *Forgotten Realms* authors thought like you did when writing their FR novels. I wouldn't be so saddened at the sudden surge of RSE chaos happening in it now.





If they thought like Keith did, then I'd finally get a Drow culture devoted to Orcus, the TRUE lord of Undeath!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 22, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> If they thought like Keith did, then I'd finally get a Drow culture devoted to Orcus, the TRUE lord of Undeath!




We all know he ripped that idea off of the ninja necromancers.


----------



## tarcil (Jul 23, 2007)

*New releases?*

Greetings

I am hoping that the releases are not a complete list, otherwise, I am a little concerned.  No direct suppliments and no Forgotten realms.  Any one have any ideas?


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 23, 2007)

tarcil said:
			
		

> Greetings
> 
> I am hoping that the releases are not a complete list, otherwise, I am a little concerned.  No direct suppliments and no Forgotten realms.  Any one have any ideas?




They're gearing up for 4e?
They're canning the Realms in favour of Eberron?
They intend to move everything into their online scheme?
They've run out of ideas for crunch?
The editor of that catalog slept on the job and the thing is only half-done?

I don't know, it might sound paranoid or pessimistic, but those are my ideas.

I had this feeling for some time now that I'm no longer considered part of the target audience by Wizards. I don't dismiss the possibility that one, two years from now, I'll have a lot of spare money on my hand that before that I used to put into Wizards products.


----------



## Glyfair (Jul 23, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> They're canning the Realms in favour of Eberron?




I wonder if they believe the _market_ for Forgotten Realms' game products might be tapped out.  It seems they were experimenting in content for a few products, which usually means the mainstream ones are selling.  The experimental ones seemed to get a lot of complaints, then they switched to adventures.  Maybe they are going to see how the adventures go before they decide how to approach the line (besides the novels that are coming out often).


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 23, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> I had this feeling for some time now that I'm no longer considered part of the target audience by Wizards. I don't dismiss the possibility that one, two years from now, I'll have a lot of spare money on my hand that before that I used to put into Wizards products.




It will be interesting to see what demographic 4E targets.

College students (IIRC) are the #1 players, so I'd imagine that they will be the number 1 target (along with those about to enter College, of course).


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jul 23, 2007)

Wow.... the first 3 months of the year will be a great time to save money!


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 23, 2007)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> It will be interesting to see what demographic 4E targets.




Probably the kind of addictive personality that isn't addictive enough to neglect their children or personal needs to play, but pretty close to that.


----------



## Stereofm (Jul 23, 2007)

Sucros said:
			
		

> The other two are much more deep in impact.  The lolth issue cements the FR "bastard" cosmology in cannon (ug ug ug) has a direct effect on the source material, and is way too large for the PCs to be involved in.  While this led to novels that some people enjoyed, it's a large blemish on the material for players.
> 
> .




Not necessarily. I have not DMed in the Realms for a while, so if I start that over again, I will certainly ignore it. that, AND the cosmology. And I doubt my players will complain either.


----------



## Stereofm (Jul 23, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> Yes. Note that some of these products are D&D products, rather than AD&D products:
> 
> But I think a more interesting comparison is the release schedule just before the release of 3rd Edition:
> 
> ...


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 24, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> Nah, they get nil. Corellon cashes them all in.




 Stupid androgynous elven hippie! 

Jubliex says FIE on thee! 

Kae'yoss,

Nah Keith's more original than that.


----------



## EyeontheMountain (Jul 24, 2007)

Wow, I have never seen such a poor selection of goods from WOTC. I mean, I thought the last third of this year was bad, but MAAAANNNN!

It looks like after Expedition to Castle Greyhawk, it will be 20 bucks till next April. One set of each Dungeon Tiles. 

Now that is really sad, as I spent over 250.00 on WOTC last year.  All the completes, all the Races, and quite a few other books to boot. It is just unbeleiveable to me there is such junk. Plus the realyl odd books, Tales of a sorceress? The making of D&D? Please! I want to play the game, not turn it into the Oprah Winfrey show or wsomething!


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 24, 2007)

Eye,

Well you could always try to run a variant of "Let's Nap Oprah" from the animated TV show, The Boondocks.


----------



## Razz (Jul 24, 2007)

*ANOTHER SIGN! *

Now I have always been skeptical on 4E rumors, but I am seeing a lot of signs now and this is definitely another one. It's too much of a coincidence now. I have to start my own conspiracy theory now. 

I've finally cracked.

Remember how they released *Apocalypse Stone* to "end your campaign" right before 3E came out!?

Well check out _*Elder Evils*_ coming at the end of 2007 by WotC: 

_*Elder Evils * provides DMs with truly wicked threats to challenge high-level heroes. Each "elder evil" described in this nightmarish tome comes with a detailed description, stat blocks for the elder evil and its minions, tips for how to incorporate the elder evil into any D&D campaign, adventure seeds, and maps of the elder evil's lair (complete with encounters and room descriptions). The book also provides guidelines to help DMs create their own unique elder evils as worthy campaign villains and endgame encounters._

And now a quote from a WotC Catalog:

_Quick and easy to play: This book gives Dungeon Masters exciting, ready-to-play challenges for high-level characters.
• Elder Evils delivers high-level threats that Dungeon Masters can *use in the endgame encounters of their D&D campaigns*

 .
• Elder Evils expands on material presented in the Exemplars of Evil: Deadly Foes to Vex Your Heros™ supplement (see page 13) by taking D&D campaign villains to an all-new level. _

It's an "end game" book. 

Just like "Apocalypse Stone".

History is just repeating itself...


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 24, 2007)

Razz,

Uhm no this is just Rob "I am Evil!" Schwalb's take on making memorable villains for us. Much like MM V did.


----------



## JustKim (Jul 24, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> Remember how they released *Apocalypse Stone* to "end your campaign" right before 3E came out!?



I've heard this comparison several times and what you fail to take into account is that we knew 3E was coming out at least a full year before its arrival. The product lull some insist was there, and the apocalyptic product you mention did not come until well after we knew 3E was on its way.

Neither was actually a "sign" of 3E because we had already known about it for months.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jul 24, 2007)

JustKim said:
			
		

> I've heard this comparison several times and what you fail to take into account is that we knew 3E was coming out at least a full year before its arrival. The product lull some insist was there, and the apocalyptic product you mention did not come until well after we knew 3E was on its way.
> 
> Neither was actually a "sign" of 3E because we had already known about it for months.




The product lull didn't really happen until *after* 3E was announced.  I remember things were still being released pretty steadily right up until the Gen Con that they announced it.......to the point that the character generator software (can't remember the name anymore) was released like a month before Gen Con, and then rendered pointless by the announcement of 3E.  I remember feeling rather taken advantage of at the time, though my instincts were telling me a 3E announcement was coming soon.

There was also talk before that Gen Con that WotC had announced there'd be a big news item...in advance.  They really haven't said anything of the sort this time.  Unless they're changing strategies, I'm thinking we're not getting an announcement at Gen Con this year.

Banshee


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Kae'yoss,
> 
> Nah Keith's more original than that.




No, I meant Orcus. He clearly ripped off the idea of "undead" from Ninja Necromancers!


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 24, 2007)

Yeah, it's just a book of BBEGs, not the end of 3E.


----------



## Tuzenbach (Jul 24, 2007)

Two words: Gnome Tome


----------



## Nightfall (Jul 24, 2007)

Kae'Yoss said:
			
		

> No, I meant Orcus. He clearly ripped off the idea of "undead" from Ninja Necromancers!




*pauses*...

Okay. You need a vacation my friend.


----------



## bobacus (Jul 24, 2007)

I have been watching the trades and certain signs point to Hasbro selling off D&D IPs or just abandoning it all together.

point one-the ending of Dragon and dungeon magazine

point two- lack of any catalog or even HINTS on what is coming next year.

Point 3-Hasbro is bleeding money (mostly from there WOTC aquisition things)

So Some signs look to be a sell off. I wouldnt be surprised.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jul 24, 2007)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *pauses*...
> 
> Okay. You need a vacation my friend.




And leave this ninjamancer-proof room? No way!


----------



## DaveMage (Jul 24, 2007)

bobacus said:
			
		

> I have been watching the trades and certain signs point to Hasbro selling off D&D IPs or just abandoning it all together.
> 
> point one-the ending of Dragon and dungeon magazine
> 
> ...





And then there's this....

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26857


----------



## DM_Jeff (Jul 24, 2007)

Razz said:
			
		

> *ANOTHER SIGN! * Now I have always been skeptical on 4E rumors, but I am seeing a lot of signs now and this is definitely another one. It's too much of a coincidence now. I have to start my own conspiracy theory now.




I haven't cracked yet. WotC at D&D Experience earlier this year said "It's a long ways away. You'll get an announcement when that happens, but it's a long ways away. We have a lot of good stuff coming out through 2008."

Add to that the fact that I doubt Paizo would begin a multi-part adventure series with Pathfinder and not hold back if they felt a new Edition would be coming so soon.

As far as the lack of WotC staff here: Rememebr Scott Rouse mentioned there would be a diminished presence as they prepped for GenCon. Maybe when the con is finished they might come on board, or GenCon may reveal products not yet on the schedule.

I feel safe from the evil for now.   

And at the moment my wallet will feel safe the first quarter of 2008.    

-DM Jeff


----------



## JustKim (Jul 24, 2007)

bobacus said:
			
		

> I have been watching the trades and certain signs point to Hasbro selling off D&D IPs or just abandoning it all together.
> 
> point one-the ending of Dragon and dungeon magazine



Reclaiming the license on Dragon and Dungeon is exactly the opposite of selling off IP. If you followed the issue, you would know that the decision was made to strengthen WotC's Digital Initiative, which is in the works.


			
				bobacus said:
			
		

> point two- lack of any catalog or even HINTS on what is coming next year.



Bob, look at the 5th post in this very thread. We have products up to Spring 2008. That's roughly 9 months ahead, which is how WotC has announced their products for quite some time. Nothing strange is going on there.


			
				bobacus said:
			
		

> Point 3-Hasbro is bleeding money (mostly from there WOTC aquisition things)



Please quantify what you are talking about. Are you suggesting Hasbro is going to lose money because the Dragonlance, Kenzer and Paizo licenses are expiring? Are you suggesting the Transformers card game or Star Wars RPG are losing a lot of money? Where did you come by this unintuitive information?


			
				bobacus said:
			
		

> So Some signs look to be a sell off. I wouldnt be surprised.



Frankly Bob, I would die of shock.


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## bobacus (Jul 25, 2007)

here is some stock info. notice articles on right.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=HAS

As for the dungeon/dragon thing. from what i read they are just gonna go thru website for info.  Why? cause printing is costing too much. I dont think licsensing is REALLY the issue.

Also look at the shake ups over at the TCG part of WOTC. Lots of changes.

And generally when a corp starts cutting in an area they are trying to make it easier to sell. But hey, I could be wrong. But my opinion. Wotc needs to go back solo.

Plus I found they are letting more and more liscenses expire....curiouser and curiouser...

http://www.gamingreport.com/article.php?sid=23865


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## Hamburger Mary (Jul 25, 2007)

bobacus said:
			
		

> Why? cause printing is costing too much.



This would be perfectly logical... if WotC had been printing _Dungeon_ or _Dragon_. They weren't. Whatever those costs were, they were born by Paizo. And WotC wasn't paying PAIZO; presumably, Paizo was paying WotC for use of the license. So the idea that WotC pulled Paizo's license because it was costing WotC too much money (directly) doesn't hold water. With that said...



			
				bobacus said:
			
		

> Plus I found they are letting more and more liscenses expire....curiouser and curiouser...



Doesn't seem curious to me at all - seems quite obvious. They're trying to put the genie back in the bottle. 

D20 is a limited market. WotC likely isn't making as much money from it as they hoped. So now they want to do what they can to make ALL the money. Paizo had the ability to produce official D20 material. Now that's back in the hands of WotC. Again, it's not a sign that Paizo was failing; it's a sign that they were doing well, and that WotC would like to regain control of that revenue stream. Letting the licenses of other INDEPENDENT contractors lapse works the same way: at the end of the day, it makes WotC the one true source for official material. When 4E finally comes out - whether it's year or years from now - I'm sure it won't have an OGL associated with it. At which point WotC will be, once again, the sole source for D&D material. 

So you're right. WotC probably isn't making as much money as Hasbro wants. But I see no signs that they're planning to throw in the towel. They have products announced nine months ahead. They're starting new trilogies of novels, which won't be completed for two or three years. They're starting the Digital Initiative, and the set-up up work on that is taking time - which means money. They aren't giving up - they're trying to regain full control over what has become a very diffuse market.


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