# World Building Magic, Magic Items, The DMG, and joined up thinking.



## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

One of the things I loved initially, when I first read through the 5e PHB was some of the world building in some of the spells. Things like casting Teleportation Circle for a Year and a Day to get a permanent circle, similarly for Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and other spells. There are some that I feel are underwhelming, like Demiplane.

But I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's. If you are trying to stop the Apocalypse, taking a year out, or retiring your ninth level mage to create a permanent teleport circle, is not a particularly attractive option.

It does not also make sense when one looks at other rules for the DM, like for scroll creation and magic items. For instance:
A scroll of Teleportation Circle (per Xanathar's) is 5k gp and 4 weeks work and a Helm of Teleportation take 10 weeks and 2k gp to make. Contrast that with the year needed for the Teleportation Circle and the cost of more than 18k gp.

What this tell me is:
That the developers never thought about this holistically, and probably do not use these rules in their home games.
That either scrolls are over priced or permanent magic items are under priced.
And that it would be better to make a magic item that casts Teleport Circle once per day on touch, fix it to a pillar and pay a peasant a couple of gold pieces once per day (on completion) to touch the item to get a permanent circle than hanging about oneself and spending 18k on the cost.

So I would like a forth coming DMG to address this. I like world building magic but I think DMs would do with more guidance as to how to incorporate it in to the campaign (what level is it appropriate to allow the players access to a permanent teleportation circle, for instance).

So what do you folks think? Do you like these kind of spells? would you like to see more useful way of making that aspect of them useful to player?

*EDIT:*
I obviously failed to communicate my point. 
I  really do not want an argument about travel time or Teleport Circle on its own but:
I have an issue that this element of the spells; they are more expensive that an equivalent magic item, in both time and money.
So I would prefer if they competitive with magic items in time and expense because I think using the spells that way is more flavoursome.


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## Yaarel (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> One of the things I loved initially, when I first read through the 5e PHB was some of the world building in some of the spells. Things like casting Teleportation Circle for a Year and a Day to get a permanent circle, similarly for Mordenkainen's Private Sanctum and other spells. There are some that I feel are underwhelming, like Demiplane.
> 
> But I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's. If you are trying to stop the Apocalypse, taking a year out, or retiring your ninth level mage to create a permanent teleport circle, is not a particularly attractive option.
> 
> ...



I suspect, sifting thru all spells will also sort out the teleportation spells. The teleportation spells are all over the place, sometimes with a powerful one at a low level and a weak one at a high level. The designers need to sift thru every spell to ensure it is balanced with the other spells at the same slot level. 5e did a great job at removing the broken spells, but there are too many subpar spells compared to the other spells in the same slot level.


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## jayoungr (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's.



That may be by design, to stop PCs from just setting up a teleport circle in every town they visit and cutting travel out of the campaign entirely.

That said, though ...



UngainlyTitan said:


> If you are trying to stop the Apocalypse, taking a year out, or retiring your ninth level mage to create a permanent teleport circle, is not a particularly attractive option.



It really depends on the campaign.  You're unlikely to have a year to spare during an individual adventure, but some campaigns have downtime.  My first campaign had a year between the end of the second arc and the start of the third (around level 13), and I would have been fine if the PCs had said they wanted to establish a teleport circle somewhere during that time.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoungr said:


> That may be by design, to stop PCs from just setting up a teleport circle in every town they visit and cutting travel out of the campaign entirely.



Is that really a problem? And before you say it depends on the campaign, one the common complaint about travel in 5e is; the advice is bad, does not contribute in campaign where resources and inventory are handwaved and subject to "I win" buttons.



jayoungr said:


> That said, though ...
> 
> 
> It really depends on the campaign.  You're unlikely to have a year to spare during an individual adventure, but some campaigns have downtime.  My first campaign had a year between the end of the second arc and the start of the third (around level 13), and I would have been fine if the PCs had said they wanted to establish a teleport circle somewhere during that time.



So what about players following Adventure Paths, where once the path is done they start a new campaign with fresh characters. Why can they not join in the fun?


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## Oofta (Feb 17, 2022)

I've had a year or more of downtime in my campaigns.  Think of how powerful instantly travelling great distances is.  How expensive is a jetliner?  If you're building a castle, would it not be worth the gold to have someone cast private sanctum for a year to ensure the throne room is safe?

Depends of course on the level of magic in your campaign.  My campaign is fairly high magic and the spells in the book are spells appropriate for PCs.  PCs are free to use them (and have) or I use them as inspiration for an "arcane craftsman" who can do similar things but only as rituals.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

Oofta said:


> I've had a year or more of downtime in my campaigns.  Think of how powerful instantly travelling great distances is.  How expensive is a jetliner?  If you're building a castle, would it not be worth the gold to have someone cast private sanctum for a year to ensure the throne room is safe?
> 
> Depends of course on the level of magic in your campaign.  My campaign is fairly high magic and the spells in the book are spells appropriate for PCs.  PCs are free to use them (and have) or I use them as inspiration for an "arcane craftsman" who can do similar things but only as rituals.



So what exactly are you saying here? You do not think these spell should be allowed? or that you are fine with them as is?
Would you allow my hack with the magic item and the peasant?

The Princes of the Apocalypse campaign I ran the PC went straight after the bad guys, The cleared the whole thing in about 8/9 months in game.


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## Oofta (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> So what exactly are you saying here? You do not think these spell should be allowed? or that you are fine with them as is?
> Would you allow my hack with the magic item and the peasant?
> 
> The Princes of the Apocalypse campaign I ran the PC went straight after the bad guys, The cleared the whole thing in about 8/9 months in game.




I'm saying that it has happened in my campaigns that there are long breaks between adventuring so PCs could use the spells.  I also have NPCs that could cast the spells.  Sometimes spell info is to tell us what is possible, not what will be practical for most groups.

My personal preference is that you do not go from zero to hero in less than a year, but then again I try to avoid truly apocalyptic themes because there's no guarantee the PCs will succeed and I don't want to build a new campaign world from scratch.


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## jayoungr (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Is that really a problem? And before you say it depends on the campaign, one the common complaint about travel in 5e is; the advice is bad, does not contribute in campaign where resources and inventory are handwaved and subject to "I win" buttons.



Let's just say it cuts out some potential story space and limits the DM's options.  I know I was a little frustrated when my players took the _teleport_ spell.  Anecdote time:  we were playing through _Rise of Tiamat,_ and we had gotten to Xonthal's Tower.  In this chapter, the PCs search a tower full of dragon cultists for an artefact, and the climax of the adventure is that a blue dragon--a returning antagonist that the PCs should theoretically get some satisfaction from defeating--arrives and lands on the roof.  Only, my PCs never even knew the dragon was there, because as soon as they got the item, they cast _teleport_ and left.



UngainlyTitan said:


> And before you say it depends on the campaign, one the common complaint about travel in 5e is; the advice is bad, does not contribute in campaign where resources and inventory are handwaved and subject to "I win" buttons.



Do you think, then, that going straight to "we should never travel" is the best way to fix it?



UngainlyTitan said:


> So what about players following Adventure Paths, where once the path is done they start a new campaign with fresh characters. Why can they not join in the fun?



I don't see creating your own teleport circles as a big issue in most APs because they usually have the need for travel factored in.  They'll either give the PCs an opportunity to get a ship or mention that there are already teleport circles in the major locations or something similar.  And if a group _really_ feels that it's negatively impacting their fun, nothing stops the DM from giving them a magic item that would bypass the need to spend a year on casting the circle.  I feel like a minority of groups would really need that in order to enjoy the adventure, though.

(Also, my first campaign started with the _Tyranny of Dragons_ adventure path, but instead of starting over when we finished, I added another arc afterward to take the PCs up to level 20. That was when we had the year of downtime.)


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## Umbran (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> But I still really love the basic idea, however, in practice, they are impracticable for the PC's.






UngainlyTitan said:


> So what do you folks think? Do you like these kind of spells? would you like to see more useful way of making that aspect of them useful to player?




I'm okay with there being a few spells or spell effects, that are impractical for most players.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

Oofta said:


> I'm saying that it has happened in my campaigns that there are long breaks between adventuring so PCs could use the spells.  I also have NPCs that could cast the spells.  Sometimes spell info is to tell us what is possible, not what will be practical for most groups.
> 
> My personal preference is that you do not go from zero to hero in less than a year, but then again I try to avoid truly apocalyptic themes because there's no guarantee the PCs will succeed and I don't want to build a new campaign world from scratch.



Ok, I have no problem with your campaign, it is your campaign and between you and your players. Also, I really don't care about your campaign. That is not what I am driving here. 
What I am driving at is: I really like the flavour and world building included in a spell like Teleportation Circle (There are other spells with similar elements that I love also).

Now the issue: A Helm of Teleportation costs 2k gp and takes 10 weeks to make versus the 1 year and over 18k for the permanent Teleportation Circle by use of repeated casting of the spell "Teleportation Circle".
This make no sense, why would one ever bother making a permanent Teleportation Circle by the prescribed method when instead they could make a Rare magic item (Wonderous) that take 10 weeks and 2k gp? and does the same thing?

Look at the cost of scroll vs magic items (wands)


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoungr said:


> Let's just say it cuts out some potential story space and limits the DM's options.  I know I was a little frustrated when my players took the _teleport_ spell.  Anecdote time:  we were playing through _Rise of Tiamat,_ and we had gotten to Xonthal's Tower.  In this chapter, the PCs search a tower full of dragon cultists for an artefact, and the climax of the adventure is that a blue dragon--a returning antagonist that the PCs should theoretically get some satisfaction from defeating--arrives and lands on the roof.  Only, my PCs never even knew the dragon was there, because as soon as they got the item, they cast _teleport_ and left.
> 
> 
> Do you think, then, that going straight to "we should never travel" is the best way to fix it?
> ...



Arguing about the travel time or rules is kind of missing the point. Which evidently I was not sufficiently clear about in the OP.
But it is more cost and time effective in the Rules (per Xanathar's for crafting) to create an item that replicated the effect than to use the spells as given.
That and comparing the costs of making those spell permanent and the costs of items and scroll make very little sense either, other than gatekeeping. The DM can do gatekeeping.


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## Oofta (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Ok, I have no problem with your campaign, it is your campaign and between you and your players. Also, I really don't care about your campaign. That is not what I am driving here.
> What I am driving at is: I really like the flavour and world building included in a spell like Teleportation Circle (There are other spells with similar elements that I love also).
> 
> Now the issue: A Helm of Teleportation costs 2k gp and takes 10 weeks to make versus the 1 year and over 18k for the permanent Teleportation Circle by use of repeated casting of the spell "Teleportation Circle".
> ...



Consider this from a world building point of view.  Let's say you have a relatively high magic world.  There could be a group that sponsors teleportation circles and then offers to teleport people and goods for a fee.  It's a 10 foot diameter circle that you just have to enter.  Line people up, have them march straight through.  At 30 foot movement 2 people at a time and you could have 60 people get sent anywhere in the world.  Have them run and double it.  Alternatively send carts loaded with people and/or goods through, just coordinate with the other end and build the circles with the proper elevation change.  If sending high value items and passengers willing to pay the fee and it could be a lucrative business.

The maximum capacity for teleportation circle is far, far higher than the teleportation spell that you can cast maybe 3 times per day.

P.S. We did the calculations for teleportation circle when we had to evacuate a village in a previous campaign.  We knew a safe location, the caster did teleportation circle a few times on our side and all the NPCs escaped.


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## jayoungr (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> But it is more cost and time effective in the Rules (per Xanathar's for crafting) to create an item that replicated the effect than to use the spells as given.
> That and comparing the costs of making those spell permanent and the costs of items and scroll make very little sense either, other than gatekeeping. The DM can do gatekeeping.



A helm of teleportation does not replicate the effect of placing a permanent teleport circle in a location, for two big reasons:

1. The helm of teleportation has a chance of failure unless your destination is a permanent circle or an item that you can see.
2. Anyone who knows the sigil sequence can use a permanent circle, while the _teleport_ spell (as cast by the helm) is only for the caster and companions.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

Oofta said:


> Consider this from a world building point of view.  Let's say you have a relatively high magic world.  There could be a group that sponsors teleportation circles and then offers to teleport people and goods for a fee.  It's a 10 foot diameter circle that you just have to enter.  Line people up, have them march straight through.  At 30 foot movement 2 people at a time and you could have 60 people get sent anywhere in the world.  Have them run and double it.  Alternatively send carts loaded with people and/or goods through, just coordinate with the other end and build the circles with the proper elevation change.  If sending high value items and passengers willing to pay the fee and it could be a lucrative business.
> 
> The maximum capacity for teleportation circle is far, far higher than the teleportation spell that you can cast maybe 3 times per day.
> 
> P.S. We did the calculations for teleportation circle when we had to evacuate a village in a previous campaign.  We knew a safe location, the caster did teleportation circle a few times on our side and all the NPCs escaped.



First off you are not addressing my general point, which is, that these spells (not just Teleport Circle) are undercut in game by the Magic Item creation rules. 

However, If there exists a group of people who are mages of 9th level and over that can devote a 5th level slot to facilitate commerce then I suspect the fee is very high. Fed Ex they are not. 
A ninth level caster has one fifth level slot. A tenth as 2, and eighteenth as 3, plus some more higher level slots.
That said the existence of such a group is on the DM.
The DM can allow it or not as they wish. they can ban teleport spells or simply not supply the players with circle addresses. Them it is a retreat only thing. The party still has to walk to the adventure.

My issue is that the spell is there in the game. I like the flavour but from the player perspective it is more productive to make a magic item to replicate the effect than to use the spell and that is the bit you are not addressing.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoungr said:


> A helm of teleportation does not replicate the effect of placing a permanent teleport circle in a location, for two big reasons:
> 
> 1. The helm of teleportation has a chance of failure unless your destination is a permanent circle or an item that you can see.
> 2. Anyone who knows the sigil sequence can use a permanent circle, while the _teleport_ spell (as cast by the helm) is only for the caster and companions.



I am using the cost of the Helm of Teleportation as a guide to the cost of a magic item that replicates the permanent teleport circle, assume for the moment that the DM allows it.


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## Baron Opal II (Feb 17, 2022)

I do like these spells or rituals. I think that having something that explicitly takes a significant investment in time, talent, and wealth adds to the realism of the campaign. Great works take great effort.

That said, for teleport circle I don't require the magician cast the spell daily, but rather monthly. Starting and hour before and ending an hour after twilight, the magician performs the ritual in full view of Sola and Monas, the Sun and Moon at Full, at a liminal time in order to facilitate a liminal method of travel. After a year, all of the variations of the ley lines' flow are accounted for and the _circle _is activated. Having it cast daily gives me a modern, workman-like feel that sucks all of the mystery out of it. Having the ritual periodically timed also allows the adventurers to go out for short excursions.

Importantly, things like this are a bag of plot hooks. Who will come to disrupt the ritual? Is there a foe of the party that is doing their own, and how would you disrupt theirs?



UngainlyTitan said:


> ...[the point being] these spells (not just Teleport Circle) are undercut in game by the Magic Item creation rules.
> ...
> My issue is that the spell is there in the game. I like the flavour but from the player perspective it is more productive to make a magic item to replicate the effect than to use the spell and that is the bit you are not addressing.




Well, for the scroll it looks like there was some backpedalling. For me, you would need 12 scrolls and it would still take a year. For the helm, that cost is astoundingly cheap for the level of teleport. Regardless of the correctness of the calculation, one made in my campaign would be much more expensive. Is 2000 gp still the price of a common item?


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## Oofta (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> First off you are not addressing my general point, which is, that these spells (not just Teleport Circle) are undercut in game by the Magic Item creation rules.
> 
> However, If there exists a group of people who are mages of 9th level and over that can devote a 5th level slot to facilitate commerce then I suspect the fee is very high. Fed Ex they are not.
> A ninth level caster has one fifth level slot. A tenth as 2, and eighteenth as 3, plus some more higher level slots.
> ...




You can certainly change it if you want.  I think it's fine as is.  I've had PCs use it, some aspects of the game won't fit every campaign.  As far as use by NPCs, I simply disagree. It's a high up front cost but then it's there effectively forever.  Every campaign world is going to handle NPC casters differently of course, but it's not like the NPC casting teleportation does nothing else all day, it could just be one of many services they provide.

It also assumes that NPC casters have exactly the same limitations as PC casters, something I do not.  That gets into house rules of course, but even without that if you're in, say, the Forgotten Realms where you can't walk around the corner without bumping into a fairly high level wizard I don't see what the issue is.


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## Micah Sweet (Feb 17, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I'm okay with there being a few spells or spell effects, that are impractical for most players.



Yeah, those effects are for NPCs and PCs who have sufficient downtime in their campaigns.  Just like every other long term downtime project.  All that stuff has to come from somewhere, after all, and it really should take some time to accomplish great feats like this. It really does all depend on the table.


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## billd91 (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Now the issue: A Helm of Teleportation costs 2k gp and takes 10 weeks to make versus the 1 year and over 18k for the permanent Teleportation Circle by use of repeated casting of the spell "Teleportation Circle".
> This make no sense, why would one ever bother making a permanent Teleportation Circle by the prescribed method when instead they could make a Rare magic item (Wonderous) that take 10 weeks and 2k gp? and does the same thing?



I might think that a helm of teleportation should probably be very rare rather than just rare since it can do up to three 7th level spells a day. But I'd also argue that it doesn't do _*quite *_the same thing as teleport circle. In some ways, the teleport is better - it's faster and doesn't need a teleportation circle as the target. But if you aren't optimizing your target location's familiarity, it's off target pretty frequently.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoungr said:


> That may be by design, to stop PCs from just setting up a teleport circle in every town they visit and cutting travel out of the campaign entirely.



It'd be way better if they did something to make travel and exploration fun instead of just a logistics puzzle and resource sink. But I guess just forcing you to engage in it is fine too.


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## Micah Sweet (Feb 17, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> It'd be way better if they did something to make travel and exploration fun instead of just a logistics puzzle and resource sink. But I guess just forcing you to engage in it is fine too.



That's what Level Up is for.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

Baron Opal II said:


> I do like these spells or rituals. I think that having something that explicitly takes a significant investment in time, talent, and wealth adds to the realism of the campaign. Great works take great effort.
> 
> That said, for teleport circle I don't require the magician cast the spell daily, but rather monthly. Starting and hour before and ending an hour after twilight, the magician performs the ritual in full view of Sola and Monas, the Sun and Moon at Full, at a liminal time in order to facilitate a liminal method of travel. After a year, all of the variations of the ley lines' flow are accounted for and the _circle _is activated. Having it cast daily gives me a modern, workman-like feel that sucks all of the mystery out of it. Having the ritual periodically timed also allows the adventurers to go out for short excursions.
> 
> ...



I am inclined to agree with you and would like to this kind of thinking reflect in the DMG or whatever book out likes the thinking/costing/DM advice on the making of magic items and using spells for those kinds of purposes. 
Perhaps even referenced in the spell text for the world building elements.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> That's what Level Up is for.



More power to @Morrus and EN publishing but can I buy just the travel and exploration rules on their own and is it too much to ask for something actually useful right out of the box.


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## Micah Sweet (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> More power to @Morrus and EN publishing but can I buy just the travel and exploration rules on their own and is it too much to ask for something actually useful right out of the box.



Well, they're in one of the four books currently released, so I would say yes.  You might need to wait a bit for availability to non-kickstarters to come in.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

Speaking of travel, I would like to see something like the exhaustion rules (not as severe or death spirally as they are) incorporated in to regular play. Staying out in the wilderness should be stamina taxing.


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## LordEntrails (Feb 17, 2022)

I'm fine with the rules as is. I don't want the game to devolve into magic item creation. The games I run and the games I play in are about heroic quests, acute challenges, and action. Not about how much money a wizard can make by turning the game into an economic simulation. I'm happy the designers got away from having players make magic, and am annoyed by the rules in Xanathar's.

I've ad the creation of magic items, and things like teleportation circles etc in my games, but its something going on in the background or done by NPCs. Instead the party has to go keep the sanctum safe or clear the monsters out of the Undermountain while the high level NPC priest casts sanctum everyday and can't risk missing a day.

I like the impact the way this works on world building. These permanent magic spells/effects are more expensive than just the gold piece cost. Because as we already know, their is way too much gold and little to spend it on in 5E.


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## LordEntrails (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Speaking of travel, I would like to see something like the exhaustion rules (not as severe or death spirally as they are) incorporated in to regular play. Staying out in the wilderness should be stamina taxing.



Why? There are people all over who live off-grid and have a lot more stamina than I do. I used to do 10 day backpacking trips with no stamina loss as a young adult. Living in the wilderness is not, by itself, particularly taxing if you have experience doing so. And an adventuring party in a fantasy settings probably does, or can learn it quickly if needed.


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## Baron Opal II (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> I am inclined to agree with you and would like to this kind of thinking reflect in the DMG or whatever book out likes the thinking/costing/DM advice on the making of magic items and using spells for those kinds of purposes.
> Perhaps even referenced in the spell text for the world building elements.



I don't know if that is reasonable. There is too great a variation in desires and needs.

I think it falls on us to recognize opportunities within the rules to develop interesting aspects to our games. And to _change and develop the rules_ to adapt them to our vision. The vision of my campaign is different from Oofta's, Vaalingard's, Sepulchrave's, and yours. All are valid, but they are better once we see things that do hinder or could advance our respective visions and enact appropriate changes.


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## Lyxen (Feb 17, 2022)

LordEntrails said:


> I'm fine with the rules as is. I don't want the game to devolve into magic item creation. The games I run and the games I play in are about heroic quests, acute challenges, and action.




Exactly the same for me. And the same with travel or everything linked to downtime activities. There is always a player who wants to have some edge building a commercial entreprise, etc. for us it's not what the game is for.



LordEntrails said:


> Not about how much money a wizard can make by turning the game into an economic simulation. I'm happy the designers got away from having players make magic, and am annoyed by the rules in Xanathar's.




They are optional anyway, just don't use them or change the prices.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Speaking of travel, I would like to see something like the exhaustion rules (not as severe or death spirally as they are) incorporated in to regular play. Staying out in the wilderness should be stamina taxing.



That is the opposite of what I want.

The reason people like fast travel is to avoid the annoying, stressful parts. DMs like forcing it because they think it's dramatic.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

LordEntrails said:


> Why? There are people all over who live off-grid and have a lot more stamina than I do. I used to do 10 day backpacking trips with no stamina loss as a young adult. Living in the wilderness is not, by itself, particularly taxing if you have experience doing so. And an adventuring party in a fantasy settings probably does, or can learn it quickly if needed.



Where you in a small party of 4 or five, cut off from all communication of thing went wrong and subject to attack from monsters that would rat your face. Somehow I could imagine that, that would somewhat stressful.


Vaalingrade said:


> That is the opposite of what I want.
> 
> The reason people like fast travel is to avoid the annoying, stressful parts. DMs like forcing it because they think it's dramatic.



That is fair enough, I just have a dislike of rules that just hang there, like the exhaustion rules, with little actual application.


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## Oofta (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Speaking of travel, I would like to see something like the exhaustion rules (not as severe or death spirally as they are) incorporated in to regular play. Staying out in the wilderness should be stamina taxing.



Throughout history most people have been far, far more physically active than we are now.  Unless conditions are extreme, I see no reason to impose exhaustion.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

Oofta said:


> Throughout history most people have been far, far more physically active than we are now.  Unless conditions are extreme, I see no reason to impose exhaustion.



They also had no good ideas about disease prevention and one of the consistent things about old travel stories is the number of people that got sick, especially with dysentery.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> That is fair enough, I just have a dislike of rules that just hang there, like the exhaustion rules, with little actual application.



I mean if it was a good set of rules, but 5Exaustion is just a Death Spiral with more steps as far as I'm concerned.


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## Oofta (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> They also had no good ideas about disease prevention and one of the consistent things about old travel stories is the number of people that got sick, especially with dysentery.



I'm not looking for a medieval travel simulator.  Diseases are different from exhaustion and is largely avoided by the game.


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## jayoungr (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> I am using the cost of the Helm of Teleportation as a guide to the cost of a magic item that replicates the permanent teleport circle, assume for the moment that the DM allows it.



If you're inventing the magic item, can't you also decide on the price?  I'm confused about where the problem is.



Vaalingrade said:


> It'd be way better if they did something to make travel and exploration fun instead of just a logistics puzzle and resource sink.



I don't disagree that travel for travel's sake can often be handled badly.  But if travel doesn't happen, you lose the chance for encounters that are _actually important to the main story_ to happen during travel.  You don't just eliminate filler--you cut out the possibility of non-filler as well.


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## Vaalingrade (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoungr said:


> I don't disagree that travel for travel's sake can often be handled badly.  But if travel doesn't happen, you lose the chance for encounters that are _actually important to the main story_ to happen during travel.



How often does that actually happen though? Travel is mostly for trash fights via random encounters to fill out the increasingly greedy adventuring day.

"I know you want to get back to dealing with Duke Killmuderton, but here, punch these wolves until you're leveled enough to deal with the real plot"


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## Oofta (Feb 17, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> How often does that actually happen though? Travel is mostly for trash fights via random encounters to fill out the increasingly greedy adventuring day.
> 
> "I know you want to get back to dealing with Duke Killmuderton, but here, punch these wolves until you're leveled enough to deal with the real plot"



If the DM's goal is to have the PCs higher level than they are currently, they will just come up with other "trash fights".  In the meantime if an interesting story can be told via travel, cool.  If not I recommend just hand-waving and maybe narrating that they had some minor difficulties along the way.


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## LordEntrails (Feb 17, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Where you in a small party of 4 or five, cut off from all communication of thing went wrong and subject to attack from monsters that would rat your face. Somehow I could imagine that, that would somewhat stressful.



No monsters, but got chased by a mother brown bear. Everything else yes. Carried food, bedding, shelter, tools; everything but one days water with us every day for 10-20 miles hiking per day depending upon our objective.

Look, I get it if you haven't done something similar, that you think one might deteriorate over time. But there is plenty of hard evidence as well as anecdotes like mine that people can live and thrive under much harsher conditions than travelling through wilderness. Yes, over long periods of time at above a sustainable pace, sure, one can get run down.

Go ahead and work out a system of stamina reduction or exhaustion to fit your vision But as others have said, very few players are going to care about such or enjoy such an experience. You do you.


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## jayoungr (Feb 17, 2022)

Vaalingrade said:


> "I know you want to get back to dealing with Duke Killmuderton, but here, punch these wolves until you're leveled enough to deal with the real plot"



How about "While you're on your way to see the famously good and kind Duke Killmuderton, you run across some of his soldiers terrorizing a family who were unable to pay their taxes"?  Or "While you're on your way to negotiate with Duke Killmuderton about getting access to his mines to search for the lost pickaxe of McGuffin, you are attacked by bandits who have a map showing a secret entrance to the mine"?

As for how often it happens, the only way to know that would be to survey every DM ever.



Oofta said:


> In the meantime if an interesting story can be told via travel, cool.  If not I recommend just hand-waving and maybe narrating that they had some minor difficulties along the way.



I agree with that.  It just sounds like some people want to cut out the choice part.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 17, 2022)

jayoungr said:


> If you're inventing the magic item, can't you also decide on the price?  I'm confused about where the problem is.



I can but the price disparity between what the spell cost to make permanent and a magic item that does a similar thing, as presented in the rules is very large in both time required and gold pieces. That it would be better if these costs would be similar across different parts of the rules.


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## Fanaelialae (Feb 17, 2022)

@UngainlyTitan 
I do think Teleportation Circle should have had a clause that if you are merely recasting it to make it permanent, it doesn't consume a material component.

If you don't want to change it, you could simply add something that modifies it. Perhaps making a teleportation circle permanent on a ley line only takes a month, or only a week if cast on a nexus of ley lines.

I do prefer some impediments to permanent circles, otherwise it could be hard to justify why they aren't everywhere. Common teleportation circles would be fine for the right setting, but certainly not for every setting.


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## Oofta (Feb 18, 2022)

LordEntrails said:


> No monsters, but got chased by a mother brown bear. Everything else yes. Carried food, bedding, shelter, tools; everything but one days water with us every day for 10-20 miles hiking per day depending upon our objective.
> 
> Look, I get it if you haven't done something similar, that you think one might deteriorate over time. But there is plenty of hard evidence as well as anecdotes like mine that people can live and thrive under much harsher conditions than travelling through wilderness. Yes, over long periods of time at above a sustainable pace, sure, one can get run down.
> 
> Go ahead and work out a system of stamina reduction or exhaustion to fit your vision But as others have said, very few players are going to care about such or enjoy such an experience. You do you.




I actually found that hiking gets easier after a couple of days because you become accustomed to it.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 18, 2022)

Fanaelialae said:


> @UngainlyTitan
> I do think Teleportation Circle should have had a clause that if you are merely recasting it to make it permanent, it doesn't consume a material component.
> 
> If you don't want to change it, you could simply add something that modifies it. Perhaps making a teleportation circle permanent on a ley line only takes a month, or only a week if cast on a nexus of ley lines.
> ...



Ya see, my issue is not fixing any particular spell. I can do than anyway I want, it is the fact that if one looks at the cost of a permanent teleport circle using the method provided in the spell (and similar permanent effects from other spells) and compare that cost of making a magic item providing a spell effect of a similar level and compare that with the cost of creating a scroll of that level, the prices are all over the place.

It is obvious that the designers never though about these elements as a whole. 

If there was some common logic connecting the various elements, it would be useful for DM's to extrapolate to new things the player might think of. As it is, it pretty much looks like who ever cooked un the individual element, came up with a costing out of thin air and no other logic.

From my perspective scrolls are very expensive when compared to magic items and potions.
And the permanent spell effects seem very costly also, though I will admit I have not trawled to books for every example and done an analysis just a few caught my eye.


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## Fanaelialae (Feb 18, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> Ya see, my issue is not fixing any particular spell. I can do than anyway I want, it is the fact that if one looks at the cost of a permanent teleport circle using the method provided in the spell (and similar permanent effects from other spells) and compare that cost of making a magic item providing a spell effect of a similar level and compare that with the cost of creating a scroll of that level, the prices are all over the place.
> 
> It is obvious that the designers never though about these elements as a whole.
> 
> ...



The magic items creation rules weren't until Xanathar's. So the person who made Teleport Circle couldn't have based it on that.

As for magic item creation, it may arguably be quicker and less expensive, but it requires a formula (access to which is entirely DM facing) as well as a component from an appropriate CR 9-12 creature. Meaning that there could be multiple quests involved. So in many ways crafting the item is still more involved.


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## Shiroiken (Feb 18, 2022)

I conceptually like the worldbuilding ideas found in spells. However, they also hammer worlds into following the same trend. Teleportation Circles in my Greyhawk are pretty rare, and all heavily guarded secrets. Having the PC just automatically get 2 is problematic for me, since it poses a security risk. I worked around it with the player, but the issue remains for future campaigns.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 18, 2022)

Fanaelialae said:


> The magic items creation rules weren't until Xanathar's. So the person who made Teleport Circle couldn't have based it on that.



No, but the person writing Xanathar's should have been aware of the spell costs.


Fanaelialae said:


> As for magic item creation, it may arguably be quicker and less expensive, but it requires a formula (access to which is entirely DM facing) as well as a component from an appropriate CR 9-12 creature. Meaning that there could be multiple quests involved. So in many ways crafting the item is still more involved.



And potentially more interesting, depending on the quest.


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## Fanaelialae (Feb 18, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> No, but the person writing Xanathar's should have been aware of the spell costs.



I don't think it would have made sense to base magic item creation costs on a spell like Teleport Circle. Though, like I said, I think that the cost should have been lower by waiving repeated material costs, similar to other spells that can be made permanent.

In any case, my point was that the cost of creating magic items is arguably higher than just the time and cost listed, given that questing is likely to be required. The DM can even outright choose not to allow crafting by simply by making formulas unavailable.


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## UngainlyTitan (Feb 18, 2022)

Fanaelialae said:


> I don't think it would have made sense to base magic item creation costs on a spell like Teleport Circle. Though, like I said, I think that the cost should have been lower by waiving repeated material costs, similar to other spells that can be made permanent.
> 
> In any case, my point was that the cost of creating magic items is arguably higher than just the time and cost listed, given that questing is likely to be required. The DM can even outright choose not to allow crafting by simply by making formulas unavailable.



So is it fair to say that you are therefore largely contented in the current state of play with respect to creating, magic items, permanent magical effects and so forth.


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## Fanaelialae (Feb 18, 2022)

UngainlyTitan said:


> So is it fair to say that you are therefore largely contented in the current state of play with respect to creating, magic items, permanent magical effects and so forth.



Yeah, content would be an apt descriptor. It's not that I think there isn't potential for improvement, but it does at least meet my criteria for _good enough._


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