# Yet Another Lonely-Gamer Thread UPDATE 7-8!!!!



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 14, 2006)

Hello.

First off, I'm not new. I post under another name here, but I don't wish to use it as its easily identified with me. I want complete anonmynitity.

I've known this girl (we'll call her Kay) for almost seven years (freshmen in college). We lived in the same dorm, had a single class together. However, we ended up friends throughout college. Towards the end of college, my feelings for her started to change. It came to a head when I picked her up to go to a friends birthday party and she was dressed to kill. I was smitten. 

We had a brief "dating" session, which ended when she admitted she wasn't looking for a relationship and didn't want to "hurt me". Shortly after, I began a long and difficult relationship with my last girlfriend (which is another story, but it didn't end well). Two years and that ended, and Kay and I met again online by chance. We made a point to go and visit one another, and to re-kindle a friendship almost destroyed by my ex-girlfriend. Unfortunately, it also rekindled those feelings I had for Kay long ago. 

We've been seeing each other once a month or so for two years. We go to dinner, movies, plays, opera, out for ice-cream, even on day-trips to theme parks and had talked about a three day trip to Vegas (actually, it was a job-scouting prospect that didn't pan out). We've talked about possibly getting an apartment together when one or both of us have steady jobs (both of us are working stiffs still living at our parents). Not too long ago, she even came to "watch" my group play D&D and got into the RPing aspect (like theatre, which she loves) but wasn't sure she wanted to join. 

The ultimate was the good-night kiss I got just days ago, which I'd been hoping for since that first night at the party. There's even been prospects of "more" to come...

However, throughout all of this, she's never changed her story: She thinks I'm a great guy and I'm a loyal friend, with whom she can share anything. But she's not looking for a boyfriend right now, and even if she was, she doesn't "feel" anything toward me. Throughout all of this, I've been a "friend". 

I'm at wits end now. I care desperately for her, and while it seems I'm making progress, it comes back to that same old story: I'm just not interested. While I finally got her to admit she has SOME small feelings toward me, I'm really wondering if I'm not wasting my time in a non-relationship, or even making more out of a close friendship that is really there...

So, I through this to you amateur Dr. Phils: should I start to try to see other people (I'm horribly shy and I don't have access to many places to meet new people), should I see where this leads (lets things continue to slowly "grow"), or am I being played for a fool? 

Any and all suggestions are welcomed.

*EDIT: Check page 3 for an update on this situation*


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jun 14, 2006)

I don't really have any relationship advice, but I will tell you from my experience in reading threads along this line, be prepared for some good and some not so good advice. And be prepared to be insulted along the way.  These threads usually end in tragedy.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 14, 2006)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> I don't really have any relationship advice, but I will tell you from my experience in reading threads along this line, be prepared for some good and some not so good advice. And be prepared to be insulted along the way.  These threads usually end in tragedy.




You know, even typing it all out was therapeutic. And its part of the reason I'm in nom de plume (the other is my SN is googlable). Still, sometimes a nugget of wisdom can be gleaned, and if not, its good to have some sympathy at least...


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## Seanaci (Jun 14, 2006)

My few cents worth:

Don't write her off completely. Put those feelings for her to the backburner and date other people. If you have a good time on a date, tell her so. Sometimes it takes a good kick in the butt to get the other person to realise they also have deep feelings for you. However, also keep in mind, it could make her feel the opposite and be happy to see that you've moved on from her. Either way, you'll win in the end.

Best of luck.


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## Dragonbait (Jun 14, 2006)

My crappy 2cp (I write this after reading through the post once)
You can only go on what she tells you. In general, being the "friend" is a death-sentence for guys, contrary to what all the movies tell us. I do not recommend you and she moving in together, because if she really wants to keep it plutonic, it will be really hard for you to see her day after day without anything more coming out of the relationship. Don't keep going after her with the faint hope that something will happen. Pursue other relationships. but do NOT go into them just to try and get Kay jealous or whathaveyou because you will just end up hurting the 'temp' girl when she realizes that she was just a tool. Trust me, she will be able to tell. 
Kay knows how you feel. 

(this is after a second reading)
That kiss, along with possibly more prospects? Did she say that, or are you hoping for that? Is she just looking for a "friends with benefits" situation? Those are always entertaining till one of the two friends gets too deep into it and gets real feelings for the other, while the other does not reciprocate. Do you lust after her, or are you really attracted to her and her personality too? If it is the second, then do NOT go into the friends-with-benefits situation. You'll just end up being hurt more.

The big problem with all of this is the fact that we don't know the full situation. We only know what you have written on the thread, so our comments are skewed by that.

Hm. Just call me Eeyor. I'm full of negatives today.. Oops.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 14, 2006)

Honestly I think you need to back away from her.  Seanaci's way is one possibility, but I think you need to break yourself from her if you really want to try dating, otherwise you probably won't give other women a fair shot.  

Let her know how much you feel for her and that it is difficult remaining just friends with her and so you need to take some time away while you look for someone who can give you more.  If you stick around and remain friends with her, she hasn't lost much by your dating someone else, but you will likely end up holding yourself back, comparing everyone you date to her (trust me, I've been there, it isn't good).  If you aren't around to be her good friend, she may come to realize just how much you really mean to her. 

If she is serious about not wanting a relationship, you both lose something, but you will hopefully be able to find what you need.


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## Crothian (Jun 14, 2006)

She's told you how she feels, she wants to remain friends.  I suggest you do that.  Date other people.  Having a woman friend is great when you are dating other people.  A woman's prospective is invaluable and great to talk to to when you are wondering what to do while dating.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 14, 2006)

Dragonbait said:
			
		

> My crappy 2cp (I write this after reading through the post once)
> You can only go on what she tells you. In general, being the "friend" is a death-sentence for guys, contrary to what all the movies tell us. I do not recommend you and she moving in together, because if she really wants to keep it plutonic, it will be really hard for you to see her day after day without anything more coming out of the relationship. Don't keep going after her with the faint hope that something will happen. Pursue other relationships. but do NOT go into them just to try and get Kay jealous or whathaveyou because you will just end up hurting the 'temp' girl when she realizes that she was just a tool. Trust me, she will be able to tell.
> Kay knows how you feel.




The move-in sceanario has been bandied about in the form of "I want to get out my parent's house" "me too" "I don't know where to go" "we could always find something to share rent" (Kay added the last line)

I realize that moving in and being plutonic friends is a death-sentence. I don't think I could look at her day-in, day out without dying. And IF she started dating someone, I couldn't be in the same county as her and whoever. No, I know better than that. It was merely to suggest she feel comfortable enough with me to suggest housing arrangements.

Kay isn't the kind to get jealous. She was, until a poor relationship burned her. Its the bad relationship(s) that has kept her playing it close, not wanting a boyfriend right now. (least as she explains it). 



			
				Dragonbait said:
			
		

> (this is after a second reading)
> That kiss, along with possibly more prospects? Did she say that, or are you hoping for that? Is she just looking for a "friends with benefits" situation? Those are always entertaining till one of the two friends gets too deep into it and gets real feelings for the other, while the other does not reciprocate. Do you lust after her, or are you really attracted to her and her personality too? If it is the second, then do NOT go into the friends-with-benefits situation. You'll just end up being hurt more.




Oh, its been discussed in that exact term: friend with benefits. So far, the only cavaet to it so far has been a suitable location (both living at home really cramps a love-life).  This goes back to that "burn" she got, I'm the first person (she claims) that she would get physically intimate with since that time. Maybe thats just an ego booster. 

No, its not just lust. I'm hesitate to use the other "L" word (not lesbian!) but its not just a physical thing. In fact, the physical element is relatively rescent, and perhaps that is that which is really confusing me. If she was just a "friend", why start initating more physical contact?



			
				Dragonbait said:
			
		

> The big problem with all of this is the fact that we don't know the full situation. We only know what you have written on the thread, so our comments are skewed by that.
> 
> Hm. Just call me Eeyor. I'm full of negatives today.. Oops.




Oh, I realize its he said/she didn't, but its all I got to go on. It sucks, she's my best friend and confidante, and we share EVERYTHING about ourselves together. We're each other's problem-solvers and support system, so its really hard when your support system IS your problem! Its like calling up customer service to complain about the poor customer service. 

The last question is: can I somehow salvage this friendship without hurting myself or her in the process?


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## Dragonbait (Jun 14, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> The last question is: can I somehow salvage this friendship without hurting myself or her in the process?




That would require you moving on, emotionally, without severing communication with her. Nothing will be the same, in any case. You are going to have to face that. You admitted that you can't bare the thought of her with another guy. If she does not want to be in a relationship with you, she WILL eventually be seeing someone else. It's a fact you need to realize and prepare for. The freinds with benefits (FwB) will also change everything, but be prepared for some rocky roads ahead with that one.

Just ran out of time, so I can't add more, or check what I said. Woot! Speed posting!


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 14, 2006)

Obviously I don't know any more than what you have posted, but from observing a good friend go through something frighteningly similar, the "friends with benefits" thing bothers me a lot.  Sounds like she wants everything good about a relationship, companionship, physical satisfaction etc. without having to commit herself to anything.  That way, if something goes wrong she can just tell herself, "no big deal."  Emotional detachment.  What this can lead to is a one-sided relationship.  You end up emotionally invested and do whatever you can to keep what you have.  She has no investment and takes what she can get, returning much less than you give.  

I would venture that this is highly unlikely to ever lead to anything good for you.


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## LostSoul (Jun 14, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Any and all suggestions are welcomed.




Well, if it were me, I'd stop calling her completely.  If she wants to spend time with you, she can call.  (And if she complains, just tell her that.  "Why didn't you call?"  "Why didn't *you* call?")

And I'd be busy when she wants to do something.  Maybe something like, "Oh, I can't, I'm doing something; let me call you next [whatever day] when I'm free."  And then I'd forget to call.

She might just give up on you, but that's okay, because then you know she doesn't really care anyway.

And if she does call, I'd say, "Yeah, okay, let's go out for drinks."  And then hit on her.  And if she turns you down, say, "Well, I gotta get up early, so I'll see you."


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## Mycanid (Jun 14, 2006)

Sigh ... I'm so bad at this sort of thing.

But all that aside, my gut level response says to let her alone. Don't be nasty or rude or whatnot, just disengage yourself (easy to say, eh?) and move on.

Somehow I don't think this may be the simple solution, though. I was told by someone that the most effective way to seperate oneself from something you are interested in is to "replace" it with something that has a more powerful hold on you. And this need not necessarily need be another woman.

I can say one thing, though. Usually women think waayyyy different than men in these matters - and it often just doesn't make "sense" to the one why the other is so "illogical" or just doesn't "get the point".

This is why it is very helpful to "attach" yourself to other (presumably healthy) things (note the plural!) that will gain the ascendence in your inner priorities and help balance things out if and/or when a similiar "rush" occurs again, either with the lady you are speaking of in the post or even with someone else later on. This is an excellent way to get "perspective" on things.

Of course, articulation of the issues and inner states one is going through, and talking with others is also a helpful way to get perspective too, so I am glad you are at least writing to us all in here.

Apologies if I have stepped on your toes or just wasted your time telling you things you already know. Like I said, I'll rotten at this sort of thing....


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## billd91 (Jun 14, 2006)

The question I have is: Do you like hanging out with this person? If so, and she never returns the affection, then get used to feelings of unrequited love until the wounds scab over.

My advice is to not throw away a friendship just because she doesn't see you "that way". As a lover. That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, as I see it.

As far as the "friends with benefits" thing goes, don't read too much into it. She might be just tossing that out as a defense mechanism to avoid being burned. It doesn't necessarily mean she wants that level of emotional detatchment and really wants to simply use you. It might just mean that's the poker face she'll put up until she feels ready to take the emotional plunge. And then again, it might also just mean friends with benefits.

I wouldn't recommend moving in with her, though. That could be pure torture and then you're stuck in a lease together. Sort things out first.


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## Remathilis (Jun 15, 2006)

My sympathies with you pal.


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## Harmon (Jun 15, 2006)

Three thoughts come to mind-

1- Inform her that you need to take a month or six off from her company because your feelings for her are just to strong and you think it might help you to get your life moving away from the two of you being an item.  This will also give her a chance to find someone and thus make her less available in your mind’s eye.  

Chances are this might be good for the two of you- or rather for her to get any thoughts of you she has cleared up (though they sound very clear to me- you two ante happening).

2- “I love you, I know you said that there is no us.  I cannot hang with you thinking as I do.  We need to end this relationship, here and now for my sanity and for your peace of mind.”

Kinda tough love- well not really, but getting away from her will clear up your chances of moving on.

3- “Answer me this- is there ever a chance that we might be an item?”

The answer will more likes be “no,” and with that you say- “okay.”

After which you resume your relationship as friends.  A year later to the day if you feel the same then ask the same question- same reply then say the same thing- “okay.”  Never allow a kiss, or anything that might lead you astray, as the two of you are just friends.  Should she want to get something going in the middle of that year- “I thought you said no?”

Chances are you will never be with her, though I would not mind being wrong (it’s a fault of mine).  

Wish you both the best, a long life, and all that- good luck.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 15, 2006)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Three thoughts come to mind-
> 
> 1- Inform her that you need to take a month or six off from her company because your feelings for her are just to strong and you think it might help you to get your life moving away from the two of you being an item.  This will also give her a chance to find someone and thus make her less available in your mind’s eye.
> 
> Chances are this might be good for the two of you- or rather for her to get any thoughts of you she has cleared up (though they sound very clear to me- you two ante happening).




We still have some "summer plans" which while I could break them, I'd rather not at the moment. Not because of her, but because they are really the ONLY summer plans I have (well, that and a friend's wedding to attend). However, There is a long pause in July were she is out of town and I have other plans (such as the aformentioned wedding) so there will be some time to not see each other. Perhaps as the fall begins, things can become "busier" and we can take some time off. 



			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> 2- “I love you, I know you said that there is no us.  I cannot hang with you thinking as I do.  We need to end this relationship, here and now for my sanity and for your peace of mind.”
> 
> Kinda tough love- well not really, but getting away from her will clear up your chances of moving on.




GACK! Not the "L" word! Well, maybe. In that scenario, I could see it. If/when it comes to this, I think that will have to be my ticket.



			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> 3- “Answer me this- is there ever a chance that we might be an item?”
> 
> The answer will more likes be “no,” and with that you say- “okay.”
> 
> After which you resume your relationship as friends.  A year later to the day if you feel the same then ask the same question- same reply then say the same thing- “okay.”  Never allow a kiss, or anything that might lead you astray, as the two of you are just friends.  Should she want to get something going in the middle of that year- “I thought you said no?”




I kinda did this, but not as formally (and not without letting my emotions get in the way, see kiss, first). However, for a long time I tried to be the perfect plutonic friend, but I found I was hurting myself. So that lead to our first "conversation" on the topic, which I let my feelings be known. Since then, the topic manages to come up 1/2 dozen times (my short kill to the topic "What will be will be" and try to drop it. Never really works though. For either of us). 

There were alot of "I thought you said no" moments recently (kiss, "bennes", etc) recently. I think I saw something there that wasn't so, I boldly made a move and met the same line of resistance. 



			
				Harmon said:
			
		

> Chances are you will never be with her, though I would not mind being wrong (it’s a fault of mine).
> 
> Wish you both the best, a long life, and all that- good luck.




I wouldn't mind either.  However, I'm thinking there is a definite concenus here, both with all of you and with friends I am close to (though none of them know Kay that well). I think I know what I have to do, but I'm afraid to do it. I'm trying to balance my desire for companionship (and how much it hurts) with the loneliness of starting the hunt again.


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## Umbran (Jun 15, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> However, I'm thinking there is a definite concenus here, both with all of you and with friends I am close to (though none of them know Kay that well).




Consensus among others in this situation is meaningless.  We are not you, nor her.  Loving relationships are too personal to generalize.  You have to do what your own heart tells you.


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## Treebore (Jun 15, 2006)

I pretty much agree that this sounds like a no win situation if she doesn't like/love you in the same manner. Then again she just may not know herself well enough to know true love when it hits her. She may have an unrealistic idealized idea of what true lov is. So ask her what she thinks true love is, how she will know it when she shee's it. If she has a solid relaistic idea of everything, then you are just a friend. If she really doesn't have any solid idea, then she might actually love you and just not know it because she doesn't recognize it.

All I can say is the love of my life is my best friend, the one I prefer being around the most, and the one I trust the most. Fortunately she feels the same about me and we are working our way towards our 16th anniversary with no end in sight.

Sounds like she likes being around you a lot, if not the most, and trusts you more then most, or maybe anyone else. So maybe she does have feelings for you, but doesn't understand her feelings/emotions enough to understand their meaning.

So talk to her. Be honest. Let her know you think you love her and you want to explore the feelings you have for each other. If she can't talk to you about them, or she does and it becomes clear that you are the eternal "brother" to her, then move on emotionally to someone else. Just be tough enough to keep being her friend for as long as she deserves it.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Jun 15, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Consensus among others in this situation is meaningless.  We are not you, nor her.  Loving relationships are too personal to generalize.  You have to do what your own heart tells you.



 Amen to that.  You can ask for advice and get ideas, but in the end you shouldn't listen to us, you should listen to your own feelings.  

Good luck.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 15, 2006)

Thanks again to everyone's responses.

By "concensus", I mean "a lot of people thinking what I already thought, but I was too afraid to vocalize. I'm not sure its the right way, nor am I sure thats what I'm going to do. Ah, too many emotions!

Treebore: I think you actually might be on to something. She has described her long list of romances in the past as "loveless" and "didn't want me in the same position". Her two longest boyfriends were desperation acts or time-fillers, and the last person she saw was for purely carnal purposes. Since then, she's wanted to "get away from that" and focus on getting her life in order. However, despite all these "relationships" I think she's looking for that "ideal" person, with whom she will be perfectly compatible. 

I'm getting the impression I _might_ be one of those time-fillers, but without the emotional attachment. Like her last "boyfriends" I might be someone she can go and do stuff with, but unlike them, she's trying to leave no illusion "we" are anything (and in her mind, letting me down as gently as possible by dispelling any real expectation). Problem is, it failed. I DID get attached, perhaps because I worked so hard to "crack" that armor. Things mean more when you work for them, and a sweet (or maybe not-so-sweet) kiss goodnight was a prize I'd fought for so long, I might have over-read it.

The wild card is: does she really think I'm just a friend/brother/timefiller deep down, or am I something else she won't admit, an inconvienent truth (btw: great film) because I don't fit her vision of the future perfectly. (Side note: she wants to move out of state, she hates the winter). And even so, at this point SHOULD I care? 

In the end, I do though. So I know if I want this friendship to work, I need to look at things differently. It will be a long road yet. 

Thanks for letting me vent this.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jun 15, 2006)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Obviously I don't know any more than what you have posted, but from observing a good friend go through something frighteningly similar, the "friends with benefits" thing bothers me a lot.  Sounds like she wants everything good about a relationship, companionship, physical satisfaction etc. without having to commit herself to anything.  That way, if something goes wrong she can just tell herself, "no big deal."




Umm, short of marriage, how is this different from any other relationship?

Take what is being offered, enjoy it, and if it doesn't work out, _take it like a man_ for pete's sake.

Now for the insulting part you were warned about: If there's one thing we know, it's that women are attracted to men who are emotionally vulnerable and force the woman up on a pedestal. Yep, that's the recipe for success, right there.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 15, 2006)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Umm, short of marriage, how is this different from any other relationship?
> 
> Take what is being offered, enjoy it, and if it doesn't work out, _take it like a man_ for pete's sake.
> 
> Now for the insulting part you were warned about: If there's one thing we know, it's that women are attracted to men who are emotionally vulnerable and force the woman up on a pedestal. Yep, that's the recipe for success, right there.




Ouch. Tough love there Wulf.

Probably more truth in that than most people would want. 

And as for "how is that different?" I think the difference comes in input/output. She give minimal, gets maximum. I give maximum, get minimum. Perhaps its all in that illusion of "stability", that I mean SOMETHING more than a good time. 

That said, this HAS come at a emotionally vunerable period of my life, for many reasons. Its almost a metaphor for what my whole life is: good on the surface, but teetering dangerously on the edge. I'm looking for something _stable_ in my life: I've not found it my family, my job, my place of residence, my love life. Just the love-life one hurts the worst, because it involves factors beyond my control. However, maybe if I get some of my other affairs in order, this one will sort itself out too.

Wow, I never knew how deep this rabbit hole goes. 

If nothing else comes of this (and I'm not sure of that), I've realized two things: 1.) Nom de plumes are GREAT ways to sort things out, and 2.) I should look at what I HAVE, not what I want. 

Perhaps this friendship will deepen. Perhaps it won't. I didn't die in the process, and what doesn't kill me makes me stronger. 

Thank you all for helping me sort this out: This is why I love you guys (and gals) at ENworld, not only are you damn fine gamers, you're damn fine people (even you Wulf!   )


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## freebfrost (Jun 15, 2006)

Some information about "love." 

Read that, and also remember that men tend to fall first...

Now for the advice:  

Be patient.
Enjoy what you currently have.
Don't worry about the future.
Report back in 6 months.


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## LostSoul (Jun 15, 2006)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Umm, short of marriage, how is this different from any other relationship?
> 
> Take what is being offered, enjoy it, and if it doesn't work out, _take it like a man_ for pete's sake.
> 
> Now for the insulting part you were warned about: If there's one thing we know, it's that women are attracted to men who are emotionally vulnerable and force the woman up on a pedestal. Yep, that's the recipe for success, right there.




Wulf deserves the Teflon Billy award.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Jun 15, 2006)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> Wulf deserves the Teflon Billy award.



 I've seen TB chime in on a couple of these threads and I am a distant substitute.

But, I mean, seriously. I don't want to put Thornir's words in the Soul's mouth, but just look:



> Sounds like she wants everything good about a relationship, companionship, physical satisfaction etc. without having to commit herself to anything.




So we have the woman displaying typically male behavior and the male displaying typically female behavior. 

That's just not going to work.

Who knows? Maybe she _wants_ it to work and she's trying to _show the way_.

You can complain about it all you want; and women can insist to the contrary that they _really_ want emotionally vulnerable, sensitive guys. But that just isn't the way it works in real life. Women want their men to act like men, and when the man doesn't act like a man, the relationship-- should a real relationship ever start-- gets all out of whack. It's a recipe for chaos and discord.

If U.S. is going to have any chance of this relationship going anywhere, he is going to have to grow some emotional indifference and detachment and convince this woman to pursue him.


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## Arravis (Jun 15, 2006)

Personally, I don't think it sounds that doom and gloom. Based on what you've said (look at what's happened closely, and make sure it's happening, not just something you're wanting to happen) it sounds like she might be considering the notion of a relationship. The kissing and other things might be signs of her experimenting with less platonic feelings about you. Is she making a good bit of physical contact? Reaching out to touch you while she's talking to you? Is there any grooming behavior, pushing her hair back, etc? These may all be signs of her attempting to get your attention romantically and to move the relationship forward. Her protests in the opposite direction may simply be her own fears about having surch a relationship. Or perhaps not.

I'd give yourself a timeline, devote 3 months (or whatever) to attempting to kindle something between you and her. If it doesn't work in that given time, move on. Let her know it's too difficult and you need some time away. Put the friendship on hold until you're ready to just have a friendship with her and nothing more.  If at the end of that time you still feel the same way, let her know and close the friendship.

Of course... I probably wouldn't follow any of the above advise myself, lol. I'd just tell her clearly how I feel, probably show her this thread, and lay my cards on the table. I don't like to waste time, I have too much going on. Perhaps if you're brutally honest about your feelings, the both of you together can work out a strategy on how to handle this.

P.S.: Don't be afraid to "risk the friendship". You don't have friendship feelings towards her anyway, so it's not really a "friendship".


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## Treebore (Jun 15, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Ouch. Tough love there Wulf.
> 
> Probably more truth in that than most people would want.
> 
> ...





I can tell you how to make your life stable, and I know it works. Stabilize yourself first, then build upon that. You have to be your own "rock of Gibraltor" because until you find the one "meant for you" your the only one you can rely on. Once you get comfortable with being reliant on yourself then you can know what to look for in others. It is all part of your "personal growth". Most people never learn to rely on themselves. They always need someone else to validate them. Many never even realize how they don't like doing anything until someone else tells them it is OK, its a good idea.

So learn to rely on yourself. Trust your own judgement. Understand your going to make mistakes, but that your going to learn from them and handle things better the next time. You'll never be perfect, but you'll get a lot closer than you think you can.


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## Harmon (Jun 15, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> GACK! Not the "L" word! Well, maybe. In that scenario, I could see it. If/when it comes to this, I think that will have to be my ticket.




Sorry, my misunderstanding, I thought we were talking abot that "L" word, when it turns out it was the other "L" word.      Copy that.  

Get your feelings out then.  Hell get a "girlfriend" that looks like her and take care of those feelings with her, that might feel your needs. 

If my understanding is inccorect, please excuse my suggestions.


----------



## Arravis (Jun 15, 2006)

Harmon said:
			
		

> Hell get a "girlfriend" that looks like her and take care of those feelings with her, that might feel your needs.



I would not recommend using other people that way. The internet is a wonderful place to take care of those feelings, or get a hooker, something. But I wouldn't do that. It's pretty harmful towards the person you're using, especially since it's unlikely you'll be honest with them on that issue.


----------



## nerfherder (Jun 15, 2006)

You asked for it...






Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Dark Jezter (Jun 15, 2006)

I'm going to repeat a line that Teflon Billy posted on this very subject a couple of years ago:

*A friendship where one "friend" has unrequited romantic designs on the other is not a friendship; it's a recipe for disaster.*

Unknown Soul, if you've let this woman know that you have romantic feelings for her and she's given you the "let's just be friends" bit, then you need to distance yourself from her and try to find someone else.  This is gonna sound harsh, but when a woman tells a man that she likes him as a friend, she's telling him one of two things:

"I like using you as somebody I can complain about my problems to, but I would never consider sleeping with you"

or

"I'll keep you around as somebody I can settle for in case I can't find somebody better."

Women seem to have a type of mental barrier between "friend" and "boyfriend", and it's _very_ difficult for a guy to make the transition from friend to boyfriend.  So get out there, date other women, and enjoy yourself instead of pining over Kay.  If you and Kay are meant to be together, then it's up to her to make the next move; you've already done everything you can.


----------



## devilbat (Jun 15, 2006)

I'll get this out before TB comes in here and gives exactly the right advice.

Unfortunately, the OP has take on the role of best girlfriend with this young yummie.  Sounds to me like you're walking a fine line between "almost boyfriend" and "valuable friend she'd never risk losing to a fumbled relationship".

My advice?  You've kissed the proverbial ass enough.  I don't believe that most women want the sensitive man 100% of the time.  Tell her one last time how you feel, and what you want, then avoid discussions about your feelings.  That stuff gets old quick, and is generally more of a turn off, then a turn on.  Stop being her shoulder to cry on, and create a little distance between the two of you.  Perhaps then, she'll realize what she's missing out on, and how important you are to her.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jun 15, 2006)

Ahh, the Teflon Billy signal I never tire of that sight

Anyway, first thing is first.... PLATONIC.

*Plutonic* means "Of deep igneous or magmatic origin" so unless you are hoping for a relationship with her that in some indefinable manner has the qualities of basalt stone, I suspect you are talking about a _Platonic_ relationship 

OK, enough semantic noodling and down to business.

Here is the breakdown as I see it from reading this thread...


You guys are contempalting moving in together for financial reasons


She would like to have sex with you, but keep her options open for a "real boyfriend" (it has, by your own admission "been discussed in that exact term: friend with benefits")


Wait--hold the phone--she _doesn't_ actually want that (You mention "she has described her long list of romances in the past as "loveless" and "didn't want me in the same position")


You are seeking stability in your life (you mention that you're "looking for something stable in my life: I've not found it my family, my job, my place of residence, my love life. Just the love-life one hurts the worst, because it involves factors beyond my control")


But wait, hold the phone again! She's not a stabilizing factor for you (You say "I don't think I could look at her day-in, day out without dying. And IF she started dating someone, I couldn't be in the same county as her and whoever")

What I'm seeing here is a lot of contradiction from both of you. You can't control her contradictory tendencies...but you can control yours.

Here's the hard news Bud, and you might want to write it down: _You aren't going to get everything you want. _Most people i meet in a week seem to think they are entitled to perfection in their lives and it just doesn't happen. 

So here is the question you need to answer. And by answer I don't mean "post your answer here at EN World"...I mean have an answer clear in your head to use as a compass point.

*Do I want to pursue a relationship with this girl, even if it could destroy me if I fail?*

Here is the good news: if your answer is "Yes", moving in with her and beginning to have sex isn't a bad idea 


You and she already do all the regular "couple" stuff. 
She has said that she wants to move away from a "Just Sex" model fo a relationship
She has simultaneously expressed an interest in having sex with you.
You already know each other well

From looking at these facts, she might be sizing _you_ up for something more permanent, but just wants to leave herself some "wiggle room" if it turns out you two don't work.

Now the bad news: _That might not be the case_


She has offered a "friends With benefits" arrangement. 
She has said that she wants to move in with you for largely financial reasons.
You are her "Good Friend".
You have placed her on a pedestal

Wulf makes a point that every single guy in creation should remember...



			
				Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> You can complain about it all you want; and women can insist to the contrary that they _really_ want emotionally vulnerable, sensitive guys. But that just isn't the way it works in real life. Women want their men to act like men, and when the man doesn't act like a man, the relationship-- should a real relationship ever start-- gets all out of whack. It's a recipe for chaos and discord.




So true. So 100%, Grade A, "write-it-in-ink" true.

I usually give a bunch of advice about how to reliably land women, but I'm not going to do that just yet man, because you don't need it.

She _will_ have sex with you. She has said as much. 

You need to decide if you want that. 

If you do, then go have sex with her. Bone her senseless.

Live with her, decide if she is actually the "girl for you" (living with someone will _really_ clarify that for you...a lot of illusions get stripped away pretty quick).

But I can't stress enough: If you go ahead and do this, you _need_ to become more assertive, more callous and more stereotypically "masculine" or she is going to find someone else.

..._and_ she will have told you ahead of time it was going to  happen. 

So think on it.


----------



## devilbat (Jun 15, 2006)

devilbat said:
			
		

> I'll get this out before TB comes in here and gives exactly the right advice.




Told ya.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jun 15, 2006)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> *A friendship where one "friend" has unrequited romantic designs on the other is not a friendship; it's a recipe for disaster.*




I said that? 

Damn, that's good!  



			
				DJ said:
			
		

> if you've let this woman know that you have romantic feelings for her and she's given you the "let's just be friends" bit, then you need to distance yourself from her and try to find someone else.  This is gonna sound harsh, but when a woman tells a man that she likes him as a friend, she's telling him one of two things:
> 
> "I like using you as somebody I can complain about my problems to, but I would never consider sleeping with you"
> 
> ...




Yup...she has basically told him #2 already, but she also gave hints that she might not be the most "consistent" person in the world as she has said other things that might mean omething "more".

Any other day of the week I'd bet a hundred bucks that you had it sussed out correctly. This time, all of the infor coming from her is contradictory...so all wea re left with is the Unknown Soul's ability to change how the relationship runs.

That or just scrap the whole thing as "too much effort" (which is likley wehat I'd do...but who wants "RUN..DON'T WALK as advice )



			
				DJ said:
			
		

> Women seem to have a type of mental barrier between "friend" and "boyfriend", and it's _very_ difficult for a guy to make the transition from friend to boyfriend.  So get out there, date other women, and enjoy yourself instead of pining over Kay.  If you and Kay are meant to be together, then it's up to her to make the next move; you've already done everything you can.




Solid. But he needs to make a bunch of decisions himself, or he is setting himself up for getting "Cheated On", then told he had "Been Warned".

So I think in this instance, he needs to take the reins. It's never a good idea to put someone else in the drivers seat of your life.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jun 15, 2006)

devilbat said:
			
		

> My advice?  You've kissed the proverbial ass enough.  I don't believe that most women want the sensitive man 100% of the time.  Tell her one last time how you feel, and what you want, then avoid discussions about your feelings.  That stuff gets old quick, and is generally more of a turn off, then a turn on.  Stop being her shoulder to cry on, and create a little distance between the two of you.  Perhaps then, she'll realize what she's missing out on, and how important you are to her.




There is some good advice there.


----------



## Dark Jezter (Jun 16, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> IYup...she has basically told him #2 already, but she also gave hints that she might not be the most "consistent" person in the world as she has said other things that might mean omething "more".
> 
> Any other day of the week I'd bet a hundred bucks that you had it sussed out correctly. This time, all of the infor coming from her is contradictory...so all wea re left with is the Unknown Soul's ability to change how the relationship runs.
> 
> ...




Yeah, you're right.  He definately shouldn't be putting his life under the control of somebody who is apparantly very wishy-washy and inconsistant.  I hope I didn't come across as suggesting that, which I why I told him to date other women instead of pining over Kay (although I can definately see how my post might sound like I was telling him to wait with baited breath for Kay to come around).  The possibility of sex also makes this more complicated than the typical "girl just wants to be friends but the guy wants more" scenario you so often hear about in these type of threads.

So I'm just gonna echo what you and Devilbat have been saying: Unknown Soul, you need to step up and be a man.  Women always talk about wanting a nice, sensitive guy with a sense of humor, but have you ever noticed that those so-called "nice guys" almost always end up in the platonic friends boat?  Play to your masculine personality strengths.  Be assertive, be _confident_, and project an image of strength and stability rather than insecurity and emotional vulnerability.


----------



## FickleGM (Jun 16, 2006)

Hey, what are the odds of getting Morrus to create a "Dear TB" forum started here?


----------



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

That is alot to chew over.

I think the lesson to take from this is: be a man. 

Either it happens or it doesn't, but be a man about it.

Accept it for what it is. 

Try to see other people, but don't block her out of my life completely.

Don't get closer unless you're willing to get burnt if it fails.

....

I'm supposed to see her next week. Day trip to Cedar Point. We'll see what happens then. I'm keeping all of this in mind for then. My main goal is to make it through the day without mentioning anything related to the topic. We'll see how well that works. 

I'll try to keep you all updated.


----------



## Teflon Billy (Jun 16, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> I think the lesson to take from this is: be a man.
> 
> Either it happens or it doesn't, but be a man about it.




I think that--seperate from this issue entirely--is a good way to live life

Or to quote *Trailer Park Boys* (and apologies to Eric Grandma)...

[bq]Sometimes she goes, and sometimes she doesn't go...but; that's the way she ing goes boys...

That's the way she ing goes[/bq]

It probably sounds a litte more profound if you know Maritimers



> I'm supposed to see her next week. Day trip to Cedar Point. We'll see what happens then. I'm keeping all of this in mind for then. My main goal is to make it through the day without mentioning anything related to the topic. We'll see how well that works.




Cool. Don't forget dislike something she likes. I don't know why exactly, but it will give her more of an impression of you as "your own man".

It doesn't matter what you pick...just something she likes; you don't like it. Talk her out of liking it if you can.



> I'll try to keep you all updated.




Yeah, do that.


----------



## Rel (Jun 16, 2006)

Since all the other usual suspects are here, I might as well trot out my old standby as well...

When I was a kid of about 15 I was mooning after this girl and my dad said to me, "Son, I've been your age and I know how you are likely to treat a woman.  You think they are SO special because they have a monopoly on the [kitty cat].  And so you want to put them up on a pedestal.  But once they're up there on the pedestal, they're really only good for one thing:  Worshiping from AFAR.  And you don't want to be AFAR.  You want to be up close because THAT'S where she keeps the [kitty cat]."

In other words, don't treat her like a princess unless you want to be treated like a serf.

I am by no means advocating that you treat women (and this one in particular) like crap (though it has worked for a lot of guys).  But that stuff you see in the movies?  That "I will always ALWAYS wait for you..." stuff?  What a crock.

Just do your thing.  If she wants to chase you, well, it's up to you as to whether you let her catch you or not.  But for heaven's sake, don't chase her.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis (Jun 16, 2006)

My guess: She loves the attention of having a guy head over heals with her.  What woman wouldn't?!  Don't let her knowledge that you care about her become the chains that bind you to her finger.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 16, 2006)

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> My guess: She loves the attention of having a guy head over heals with her.  What woman wouldn't?!  Don't let her knowledge that you care about her become the chains that bind you to her finger.




Solid


----------



## Treebore (Jun 16, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> That is alot to chew over.
> 
> I think the lesson to take from this is: be a man.
> 
> ...




DAY TRIP to Cedar Point?! You didn't say she was a Ohio/Michigan girl! Run!! Its 98% likely running is the smartest thing to do. Man! It amazes me how many train wreck females live in that area. Of course the guys are only about 3% better. Now if she is from PA/Indiana/W.V. your odds are a bit better, and only get better the farther away from Ohio/Michigan area they live.

I'm serious. I think they should do a huge case study, especially the area from Cleveland around up to Detroit. I think there is something in the soil and/or water around there. Something BAD.

OR maybe it is something as simple as Ohio/Michigan men and women shouldn't have relationships with each other. Something screwy going on around there. Anyways, if you are in the area of Ohio/Michigan I am talking about find a woman from some other part of the country. Worked for me, mine was down in SC. Good luck!


----------



## devilbat (Jun 16, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I think that--seperate from this issue entirely--is a good way to live life
> 
> Or to quote *Trailer Park Boys* (and apologies to Eric Grandma)...
> 
> ...




I do, and it makes perfect sense, in and out of the trailer park.

My favorite saying to my kids, when they're complaining about things is:  "Who ever told you life was going to be fair?"  It gets to the point quick.





			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Cool. Don't forget dislike something she likes. I don't know why exactly, but it will give her more of an impression of you as "your own man".
> 
> It doesn't matter what you pick...just something she likes; you don't like it. Talk her out of liking it if you can.




Awesome advice.  It'll make you feel like you've got your manhood back.


----------



## Mistwell (Jun 16, 2006)

Time to rip that bandage off.  Date someone else.  And not to make her jealous, but because it's time for you to move on.  It's not going anywhere with her.  And if ever could go somewhere, you dating someone else now will give you the perspective you need to decide if you even want to really date her or are just in love with the concept of dating her.  Any way you look at it, you should be dating someone else now.


----------



## nerfherder (Jun 16, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Ahh, the Teflon Billy signal I never tire of that sight
> 
> ... a bunch of great advice...



My work in this thread is done.

Cheers,
Liam

P.S. good luck - I hope it works out for you.


----------



## glass (Jun 16, 2006)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> These threads usually end in tragedy.



Not always though. Mine ended up being pretty funny.


glass.


----------



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> DAY TRIP to Cedar Point?! You didn't say she was a Ohio/Michigan girl! Run!! Its 98% likely running is the smartest thing to do. Man! It amazes me how many train wreck females live in that area. Of course the guys are only about 3% better. Now if she is from PA/Indiana/W.V. your odds are a bit better, and only get better the farther away from Ohio/Michigan area they live.
> 
> I'm serious. I think they should do a huge case study, especially the area from Cleveland around up to Detroit. I think there is something in the soil and/or water around there. Something BAD.
> 
> OR maybe it is something as simple as Ohio/Michigan men and women shouldn't have relationships with each other. Something screwy going on around there. Anyways, if you are in the area of Ohio/Michigan I am talking about find a woman from some other part of the country. Worked for me, mine was down in SC. Good luck!




I knew to be insulted, but that took some real stones.

In answer, yeah, SE Lower Michigan. Was actually proud of it...

Course, both of us were looking to get out of state (not necessariliy together, mind you. Or even the same state)


----------



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Time to rip that bandage off.  Date someone else.  And not to make her jealous, but because it's time for you to move on.  It's not going anywhere with her.  And if ever could go somewhere, you dating someone else now will give you the perspective you need to decide if you even want to really date her or are just in love with the concept of dating her.  Any way you look at it, you should be dating someone else now.




Ok, unrelated tangent. Where are some place to meet "new" people?

The vast majority of my friends, like me, are anti-social. I'M the most socialable out of all of them. Most are content to sit around playing D&D and video games on the weekends. Almost all of them hate bars, clubs, etc. And I don't blame them. 

Three friends are paired off (engaged, girlfriend, boyfriend), two aren't looking (not interested in dating, period) and my last friend is Kay (she likes going out and such. In fact, thats one of the original reason we started hanging out again, we had no one else that like to go out with like that). 

I met all of them (and the vast majority of my ex's) at college or High School. Oh, and I work in a school. Dating prospects there are slim, unless I want to be arrested. 

So aside from hanging out at local bars or the internet, I'm really tapped as to where to start meeting new people.


----------



## Dragonbait (Jun 16, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Anyway, first thing is first.... PLATONIC.
> 
> *Plutonic* means "Of deep igneous or magmatic origin" so unless you are hoping for a relationship with her that in some indefinable manner has the qualities of basalt stone, I suspect you are talking about a _Platonic_ relationship




Didn't the OP want a relationship like that? No? Oh. See, I used Plutonic correctly. I just misunderstood the subject matter. I'm not an idiot.


----------



## LostSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> So aside from hanging out at local bars or the internet, I'm really tapped as to where to start meeting new people.




Sports groups.  Especially mixed gender social ones.


----------



## MavrickWeirdo (Jun 16, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Ok, unrelated tangent. Where are some place to meet "new" people?
> 
> The vast majority of my friends, like me, are anti-social. I'M the most socialable out of all of them.




So you are asking us where all the anti-social people hang out together, other than the internet? Sorry, to be honest if I knew I would already be there instead of here.


----------



## Tiew (Jun 16, 2006)

My personal opinion (having gone through a long one sided relationship.) is that the "be a man" advice is good, but you really need to combine it with Treebore's advice. It's a lot harder to be tough if you don't have things in your life that give you satisfaction outside of romantic relationships. The more fullfilling your life is the less desperate relationships are. At least that's been my experience.


----------



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

MavrickWeirdo said:
			
		

> So you are asking us where all the anti-social people hang out together, other than the internet? Sorry, to be honest if I knew I would already be there instead of here.




... boy, do I feel sheepish.


----------



## Mycanid (Jun 16, 2006)

Hmmm ... shades of Robin Williams' jokes as the genie in Aladdin?


----------



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

Friday update:

Spoke briefly with Kay on some matters, most not relating to this. However...

1.) Pushed back trip date. No relation to this, just a poor weekend for me.

2.) I managed (without looking too forward) to mention that perhaps it *was* best that we just keep things "friendly" until I sorted my life out better. Then, we can see where "we" stand then. She understood, and said if I need any help or support, she'll be there for me (awww...) 

... so life is reset to status quo for the moment. However, I think I just earned my stat-bump in wisdom, so I'll be hanging back and playing cool without being too cold. If/when there is a next move, it will be on hers (much like the good-night kiss was, or the two since). If she wishes to move the relationship forward in any any capacity (bennies, actual serious dating/relationship) it will be her move. 

I, on the other hand, will begin to keep a sharp eye out for other possible options. As much as I want this to work, I really can't stand here holding a candle for all time. Maybe they won't come soon, or easy. Who knows?

So, Perhaps in the future, "TheUnknownSoul" (or his alter-ego, if things go REALLY good) will let you know what happened. Until then, thanks again from the bottem of my heart. This helped me sort out a mess of horrible thoughts and feelings and got my head on straight. 

Peace, love and happiness

T.U.S.


----------



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

Mycanid said:
			
		

> Hmmm ... shades of Robin Williams' jokes as the genie in Aladdin?




You better believe it!


----------



## Mycanid (Jun 16, 2006)

God bless you sir.  I hope everything works out for you as it should (although perhaps not as we always like or want, if you know what I mean). I am glad to hear some bits and pieces of calming down in the last post. Hmm ... maybe the sheep pic had something to do with it after all....  :\


----------



## Pielorinho (Jun 16, 2006)

Her name's not TJ or Michelle, is it?  Nine years ago, I was in exactly your place (well, not exactly--I was living with her ex, who was twice her age and moping around the house singing "Don't Stand So Close to Me" and glaring daggers at me).  It ended poorly--and I didn't even get much good booty out of it.  Afterward she moved to Michigan.  If ever there was a relationship I regretted, it was that one. 

But I still don't regret it, because other than a month of weepy self-pitying, it didn't really do me any damage.  I got on with life.

*Teflon's* advice is great for the most part, but I think he's being a little melodramatic with the whole business about this situation having the potential to destroy you.  It's not gonna destroy you.  Even if you choose badly, and you move in with her and have sex with her and then find out that she's fallen for another guy, you'll get over it.

A question for those wiser in the ways of love:  would it be a terrible idea to ask for Kay's collusion in finding some sweet young thing for tUS to date?  When I started dating seriously, an ex-girlfriend whom I still carried a torch for was invaluable in giving me dating advice.

Daniel


----------



## Treebore (Jun 16, 2006)

Places to meet other women? Outside your door. The beach, the gym, the mall, the grocery store, the park, etc... Just be willing to talk or lend a willing hand and keep the resulting conversation going. Then there are friends of friends, friends of the family, and so on. The biggest thing is being willing to talk. Talking is a great ice breaker.

I just don't recommend bars. The women there don't tend to be the kind with which to have good relationships with. Some are, but it is too much of a crap shoot to bother with.

The bowling alley is another decent place, but be careful there too. Alot of the "bar" women tend to go there as well, plus a lot of married women looking for an "outside" relationship seemed to be there as well.

I'm told church functions are also good ones.


I think you have realized by now that the "first impression" is the best false impression. It is what you learn about them when you find out what was really behind that first impression that tells you what kind of person they really are.

For gods sake, get out of Ohio! ITs the best thing I ever did for myself.


Edit: Sorry! Get out of Michigan! BTW, I lived right next to Cedar Point while I grew up, about 10 miles east in a town called Huron. Seriously, get out of Michigan/Ohio. You don't realize the difference until about a year after you leave and enough of the toxins have been cleansed out of your body. I really suggest a Southern and/or western state. Even California is better. Rural Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona are the most strikingly different. I have also heard good things about Idaho, Wyoming, and the Dakotas. Nevada, outside of Las Vegas and the other gambling towns, can be pretty good too.


----------



## ColonelHardisson (Jun 16, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> DAY TRIP to Cedar Point?! You didn't say she was a Ohio/Michigan girl! Run!! Its 98% likely running is the smartest thing to do. Man! It amazes me how many train wreck females live in that area. Of course the guys are only about 3% better. Now if she is from PA/Indiana/W.V. your odds are a bit better, and only get better the farther away from Ohio/Michigan area they live.
> 
> I'm serious. I think they should do a huge case study, especially the area from Cleveland around up to Detroit. I think there is something in the soil and/or water around there. Something BAD.
> 
> OR maybe it is something as simple as Ohio/Michigan men and women shouldn't have relationships with each other. Something screwy going on around there. Anyways, if you are in the area of Ohio/Michigan I am talking about find a woman from some other part of the country. Worked for me, mine was down in SC. Good luck!




I was born and raised in Cleveland, and lived most of my life there until about 3 years ago. What you say makes no sense.


----------



## Arravis (Jun 16, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Where are some place to meet "new" people?



Before I got married I would go to the kind of places the women I found attractive (skinny nerd women) were likely to be. 

College libraries: I wasn't even a student, but I was looking up some books. Bookstores, though they can be difficult due to the quiet atmosphere. Quirky stores are a good locale too, they tend to be relaxed and informal. I took my dog to training classes and other doggie-related events to meet women, even though my dog was already trained. Dogs help in general, it's a good sign if you can take care of another living creature. I got a few nice dates out of that.

The thing I had the most luck with at finding geek-style girls was joining the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism). Personally, I had no interest in it, I find it a bit silly, but man, I got a lot of nice dates out of it. A few of the people there can be a bit freakish, but most are fairly cool. In the end I met my wife where I wasn't looking for dates... on Everquest. We had known each other for two years before we met in person, and we moved in together four months after that. We've been living together five years now, married two .

Just go to the kind of places that the women you like are going to be at, and be assertive while there. Finding them isn't hard, being assertive and charming is.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 16, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> 2.) I managed (without looking too forward) to mention that perhaps it *was* best that we just keep things "friendly" until I sorted my life out better. Then, we can see where "we" stand then.
> 
> ....
> 
> If/when there is a next move, it will be on hers (much like the good-night kiss was, or the two since). If she wishes to move the relationship forward in any any capacity (bennies, actual serious dating/relationship) it will be her move.




Er, no.  

You just specifically told her otherwise - that you have stuff to do before going forwards.  If _you_ have stuff to do, how is the next move hers?


----------



## Treebore (Jun 16, 2006)

ColonelHardisson said:
			
		

> I was born and raised in Cleveland, and lived most of my life there until about 3 years ago. What you say makes no sense.





Thats OK Clolonel, I've noticed we have very different views about many fundamental things. I lived from Parma over to Sandusky, Ohio from 1966 to 1984. I've only been back to occassionally visit family. Apparently you were lucky, you have a sane/stable family with a sane/stable circle of friends. I didn't find that until I left Ohio. After I detoxed from living in Ohio.


----------



## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

Umbran said:
			
		

> Er, no.
> 
> You just specifically told her otherwise - that you have stuff to do before going forwards.  If _you_ have stuff to do, how is the next move hers?




Who would be chasing who. 

My comment isn't as self-contradictory as it first seems. The jist of the longer message is "While you make up your mind, I'll be putting my life together. If you manage to make up your mind before I move on, we'll hook up. If you don't and I DO find someone else, thanks for the memories"

Course, I didn't PHRASE it like that. And its a bit of a white lie (If she made up her mind tomorrow, I'd be ready, life-be-damned) but it sets her up in the position of "if I want more out of this relationship, I need to make a move" rather than "I can have everything anyway cuz he's crazy bout me".

That aura of detachment TB was talkin about. 

Hopefully, some space and time will heal over any problems and give her a chance to "really" decide if/what she feels. If she's made up her mind already, nothings changed. If she hasn't (either consciously or unconsiously) then it could allow her re-evaluates things in a less stressful environment.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 16, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> Thats OK Clolonel, I've noticed we have very different views about many fundamental things. I lived from Parma over to Sandusky, Ohio from 1966 to 1984. I've only been back to occassionally visit family. Apparently you were lucky, you have a sane/stable family with a sane/stable circle of friends. I didn't find that until I left Ohio. After I detoxed from living in Ohio.




aside from being boring, my circle of friends and family are both moderately sane and stable. We've even mangaged to have some Michigan-made couples and offspring among them. 

Course, if the job market doesn't open up soon, I might be making my way to Nevada. Thats a bridge I'll cross when I get there.

EDIT: And now, I'm off to kill my PCs. Good-night folks.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 17, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Ok, unrelated tangent. Where are some place to meet "new" people?




*1) The Gym.*  Going to the gym serves two purposes; first of all, it gets you in shape, which makes you more attractive to women.  Second, it's also a good place to meet women.

*2) The Mall.*  The average mall is crawling with attractive women on a weekend.  

*3) Church Functions.*  This only applies if you're religious, but many churches regularly host fuctions for single adults.  These can be a great place to meet women who share the same beliefs that you do.

*4) The Park.*  In large urban areas, single women can often be found in public parks.  If you have a dog, take it for a walk in the park on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon.  For some reason, having a dog makes you look more appealing to a woman.

*5) The Beach.*  Like the park, the beach is also a good place to meet women.

*6) The Campus.*  College campuses are full of single young women.  They can be found in the quad, in the library, in the classrooms, and at various club meetings.  Joining a club can be a great place to met women with whom you share a mutual interest.

*7) The Workplace.* If you have a female coworker you like, you might consider asking her out.  Be very careful with this one, however: workplace romances are infamous for causing problems.  If things go badly between the two of you, it's gonna be awkward seeing that person every day at work.  Plus, many workplaces discorage (sometimes even forbid) employees dating each other.

*8) A Dance Class.*  Okay, I don't know if I could ever bring myself to do this one, but I've heard from others that if you sign up for a dance class, you will meet a lot of attractive women who are in great physical shape.  It's definately something worth considering.

*9) A Co-Ed Sports League.*  If you're athletically-inclined, many areas have co-ed leagues for basketball or slow-pitch softball.  Again, they can be a good place to meet women.

*10) The Internet.*  I've never tried it out before and don't realy have a desire to (I prefer asking girls out in-person), but I do know a few people who have had good experiences with internet dating sites like Match.com or Yahoo Personals.


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 17, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Who would be chasing who.
> 
> My comment isn't as self-contradictory as it first seems. The jist of the longer message is "While you make up your mind, I'll be putting my life together. If you manage to make up your mind before I move on, we'll hook up. If you don't and I DO find someone else, thanks for the memories"
> 
> ...




Umbran nailed it before I could, dude, it's too bad you didn't process the advice in this thread before moving forward. There are a few things wrong with your scenario:

A: This chick is messed up. You really need to decide why you've got a thing for her, and whether or not adding an unstable chick in your life will benefit you. Didn't you say she hasn't had a relationship in two years after a bad one and that she's still cold and distant? Lemme tell you, man, somebody like that is going to take a LONG time to heal, if she ever does. You can't change her, you won't be the catalyst...she's got her own issues.

B: You've completely gone passive! Or remained so. All you've wanted is to move forward with this chick, and she's initiated kisses with you, but you haven't initiated anything in return? That's a recipe for disaster on so many levels. Women want you to initiate things, they want to feel wanted, they have no respect for men that force them to constantly make the first move. It doesn't feel right, and it'll make them keep their distance. She probably sits around wondering, "gee, I've told him I want sex and kissed him three times, but he just stands there with his shoulders slumped." Why would she put herself out for someone that's given no indication beyond emo whining that he wants her?

B2: Your "passivity is really clever activity!" argument holds no water. She's not going to just suddenly heal now because you gave her your passive ultimatum. You should have just told her outright that you didn't want a physical relationship without actually being in a relationship together. "Friends with benefits" is a terrible position to put yourself in, it's unhealthy in every way I can think of, and is mostly a lie between two people that aren't dealing with their emotions honestly.

C: You need to do one of two things: forget being friends with her, or forget having a relationship with her. I don't believe inter-gender friendships are possible without pain on one end or the other, but as a nod to those who (foolishly) do believe in it, I'll just say that your case is clearly not that way. Friends or lovers, not both. The best thing to do is to try being lovers (but only in a relationship) asap. If it works, great. If not, then you'll either be able to be friends, or not. But where you're at now is paralyzing you...

D: Find some male friends and start doing activities with them that aren't gaming. Play sports with them, workout at the gym with them, go to bars and other social activities with them...be men. This will increase your sense of masculinity and allow much of the wisdom in this thread to soak in and become second-nature.


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## Harmon (Jun 17, 2006)

Arravis said:
			
		

> I would not recommend using other people that way. The internet is a wonderful place to take care of those feelings, or get a hooker, something. But I wouldn't do that. It's pretty harmful towards the person you're using, especially since it's unlikely you'll be honest with them on that issue.




Sorry there was a miss understanding.  The quotes around girlfriend was meant as a girlfriend that you pay for her time   .  I was not suggesting that he use someone like that, I am an rear cranium, just not that much of one.


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## Umbran (Jun 17, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Course, I didn't PHRASE it like that. And its a bit of a white lie (If she made up her mind tomorrow, I'd be ready, life-be-damned) but it sets her up in the position of "if I want more out of this relationship, I need to make a move" rather than "I can have everything anyway cuz he's crazy bout me".
> 
> That aura of detachment TB was talkin about.




Well, if that's what TB meant, he and I will have to disagree. 

This does *not* set up the position where she needs to make a move.  It sets up the position where she's supposed to hold off until you say otherwise.  But, you *want* her to not do that, right?

That is a bit of a classic - say one thing, and hope the other person does the opposite.  Usually this is termed "passive aggressive".  It steps your relationship right into the place of making your partner always wonder what the heck you actually want them to do.  Bad mojo.


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## Arravis (Jun 17, 2006)

Harmon said:
			
		

> The quotes around girlfriend was meant as a girlfriend that you pay for her time



 Lol, I should have known.

TheUnknownSoul, I agree with the others here... it seems like you're taking a step back, not forwards. Either choose to drop her as a friend, or choose to persue her. And if you want a romantic relationship, don't be shy and passive. It makes her feel unwanted and unattractive. Like it or not, it's the way our culture and society is. I've never met a woman who, in the end, didn't want a assertive strong man. What women want, all women from the idiots to the geniuses, is a good father for their children. It's in the genes, there's no fighting it. Passive and submissive men tend not to be good providers or protectors.

I'm of the opinion that doesn't mean that you have to be a jerk or inconsiderate. There's quite a bit of wiggle room in there, but the core needs to be build on confidence not insecurities.


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## Nellisir (Jun 17, 2006)

OK, here's advice on both fronts.

Your first goal is to win her.  TB is exactly right, you need to act like a cliched Male.  Being distant isn't the only key, though - or rather, physical distance isn't.  You DO NOT want her to forget you.  If you disappear for 6 months, she's not going to sit around and pine.  Really.  She'll find some loveless relationship to move into, and you'll find out about it 5 months too late.  So, no.  Keep seeing her.  Keep hanging out.  But do it with other people.  Make it clear it's a "friends" thing, not a "special touchy-feely friends" thing.  Be present, be helpful, be FUN, but give her NO special attention.  (If you can arrange to go out in mixed sex groups of single people, even better -- she may get territorial and move closer to you to mark you as "hers" without even being aware of it).

If you can afford it, buy drinks, or dinner, or tickets, for everyone.  AAA has discount movie tickets.

Do NOT discuss sex, or a "serious" relationship, or any of that crap.  In fact, do not discuss your life with her.  Talk about her life everytime, anytime.

Talk to your mom, your sister, your other friends' sisters or moms -- and figure out what looks good on you.  If you don't know, learn how to dress yourself well.  Probably 99% of the women you know would love to make you over, or at least sit around and give advice on how to make you over (get several opinions).  Watch "What Not To Wear" (TLC, I think).  Black is boring.  Set the standard for your group of friends.

You don't want to be her best friend.  You want to be the best *guy* she knows.

Your OTHER goal is to win OTHER women.  Much of the same advice applies.  But here's a secret.

The world is full of women.

Conversation is as much body language as spoken word (if not more).  When you're speaking to someone, be aware of how you are posed and what you're doing.  ALWAYS be interested in what the other person is saying.  Talk to bank tellers, cashiers, and everyone else you meet.  "How're you doing/How's your day/How are you?" is the classic cliche; it's easy and familiar to say.  Most people drop it there, but it gives you a really easy opening into a conversation.

"How're you doing?"
"Good"
"Seems busy/quiet in here.../Isn't the weather great/sucky today?.../Good looking dog, may I (pet it)?"

As the owner of two dogs, I'll second that as a way to meet people (not just women).  Even if you don't own a dog, find out where people go to let their dogs run (there'll be a park or something), and go and hang out.  Get a dog book, so you don't call a "basenji" a "bengy" (happened to me today, and no, it's not a basenji.  That's the other dog.  This is a feist.)

Dancing is also good.  No one else in the introductory class can dance either, but at least you're trying (I've taken a year of dance in college, plus some line dancing and ceildh dancing, and I still can't dance). Do not go to "clubs", unless you go with friends.  That's not dancing.

Bookstores aren't bad, but people aren't usually there to talk.  The only way I've met women in a bookstore is when they're frantically searching the sci-fi section for a gift.  Some kind of book club would be better.

Also, I'll second moving south.  I live in New England, but have spent time in Alabama, and the social culture is...different.  Seriously.

Anyways, good luck.  I had my cat put to sleep a number of years ago, and hung out talking to the receptionist afterwards for awhile (8 AM friday morning.  Not in a rush to go to work.)  Asked her to call me if anyone came in with kittens they wanted to adopt out.  She called next day, I stopped by to ask a few pet questions (my previous cat had died of a disease; I needed to know if I should sterilize stuff), and (after a long time summoning up my courage), asked her (complete stranger, but cute) out to dinner.

That was 9 years ago; we've been married for the last 3.  She doesn't play D&D; I don't play volleyball.  I had the cats, she had the dog (I still have the cats, we now have 2 dogs).

Cheers
Nell.


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## nerfherder (Jun 17, 2006)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> *1) The Gym.*  Going to the gym serves two purposes; first of all, it gets you in shape, which makes you more attractive to women.  Second, it's also a good place to meet women.



Never had any luck dating women in a gym, but being in shape definitely makes me feel more confident with women.


> *8) A Dance Class.*  Okay, I don't know if I could ever bring myself to do this one, but I've heard from others that if you sign up for a dance class, you will meet a lot of attractive women who are in great physical shape.  It's definately something worth considering.



Dancing is one of the classic ways to show that you're a man.  In dance, the man leads the woman.  The woman doesn't decide what the next move is going to be - the man does.  Always.  Plus, you rotate partners every couple of minutes.  In a beginners class, you'll end up dancing with 20+ women.  If I wasn't attached, I'd be straight back to salsa classes.


> *10) The Internet.*  I've never tried it out before and don't realy have a desire to (I prefer asking girls out in-person), but I do know a few people who have had good experiences with internet dating sites like Match.com or Yahoo Personals.



I've found dating sites to be a very convenient way to arrange dates.  I've met some great women, and had some nightmare dates.  The nightmare dates make great stories to tell to my friends 

Cheers,
Liam


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## ssampier (Jun 17, 2006)

You know the day is a strange one where you find yourself agreeing with Rel and QueenD both on the same thread (not that QueenD doesn't normally have good advice).
 
[bad advice]

Be friends with her, but don't date her. Find a nice girl, date her, and make this friend jealous. If she has feelings for you this will bring it out. If not, well at least your dating someone and getting "dating experience".

Pining for someone that doesn't feel the same (and gives mixed signals) can only lead to heartbreak.
[/bad advice]


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## Rel (Jun 17, 2006)

ssampier said:
			
		

> You know the day is a strange one where you find yourself agreeing with Rel and QueenD both on the same thread (not that QueenD doesn't normally have good advice).




You are clear about the fact that I'm fully capable of banning you, right?


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## ssampier (Jun 18, 2006)

*slips a virtual $20 into Rel's pocket*


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## Rel (Jun 19, 2006)

ssampier said:
			
		

> *slips a virtual $20 into Rel's pocket*




And just like THAT, all is forgiven!  It may be true that I'm for sale, but never let it be said that I'm expensive.


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## ssampier (Jun 20, 2006)

Rel's a great guy, it's especially fun to tease him in cyber public.

I'll buy you a beer if I ever make it to Gen Con.


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## hong (Jun 20, 2006)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Be friends with her, but don't date her. Find a nice girl, date her, and make this friend jealous. If she has feelings for you this will bring it out. If not, well at least your dating someone and getting "dating experience".




"So, how do you know if it's dating or just dating experience?"

"Well, that's obvious. If you're still single afterwards, it was just dating experience."


Hong "only REAL Alan Moore fans will get this joke" Ooi


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jun 20, 2006)

glass said:
			
		

> Not always though. Mine ended up being pretty funny.
> 
> 
> glass.





True... but I'm just going with vast number of "gamer seeking love advice" threads that fall apart and burst into little flaming shards before dying like embers in the rain.


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## Teflon Billy (Jun 20, 2006)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> True... but I'm just going with vast number of "gamer seeking love advice" threads that fall apart and burst into little flaming shards before dying like embers in the rain.




Yup...usually about the time the person who was seeking advice starts describing their worst traits as points of pride

"_why can't women just look past the fact that I am fat and don't wash? Why do they have to be so shallow_?" 

or...

"_I think the reason I can't get along with peopl in my day-to-day life is becasue I am so much smarter than the average prole. The whole world is too stupid for me_"


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jun 20, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Yup...usually about the time the person who was seeking advice starts describing their worst traits as points of pride




Amen, brother.  Preach on!


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## Joshua Randall (Jun 20, 2006)

Well, I don't know why anyone would take dating advice from a message board about D&D, but... since you asked... 

I have a radical suggestion for Unknown Soul: _why don't you explain everything to Kay?_ I mean everything -- how you've known her for seven years, how you were dazzled by how she looked in that dress when you picked her up, how you've been carrying a torch for her all this time, even how you got so confused that you sought advice (anonymously) on ENWorld.

Tell her exactly how you feel and what you want to happen. Do you feel some combination of lust and love but are not sure which is which? Tell her that. (Maybe don't use the word 'lust' because of its negative connotations; maybe say, 'I am incredibly strongly attracted to you.') Do you wish you both could give in to the mutual attraction that is bubbling beneath the surface, and have it blossom into blissful romance? Tell her that.

Tell her that you cannot stand living another day with things going on as they have been. Tell her that even though you realize your very act of telling her these things might doom any possible romance, you *have to* resolve this situation because you are being driven mad by it.

If you don't think you can tell her all this in person (and honestly, I probably couldn't), then write it in a letter (a _letter_, not an e-mail) and give it to her.

Then, after she has had time to digest what you've said/written, _do not allow her to weasel out of a definitive answer_. I don't mean to be insulting with the word 'weasel' -- I mean, you have to force her to help you make a decision: either you two become lovers, or you don't. If the former, great, hope it works out. If the latter, dude, that sucks. Have a beer (or six), mope around for a while, _and then get on with your life_.

Let me close with what may seem like a really stupid analogy, but one that works for me, so... have you seen the movie With Honors? In this movie, Brendan Fraser plays a Harvard student who is friends with another student played by Moira Kelly (details of the plot are irrelevant). However, Brendan would like to be more than friends with Moira.

In one scene, they are at a party, and Moira goes outside for some reason. A minute later, Brendan follows her, walks right up to her, and kisses her passionately. "What are you doing?" she says in surprise.

"Ending our friendship," is his reply.

Unknown Soul, you've got to _end the friendship_. End. It.

I hope this works out for you -- I really, really do. (I'm as big a romantic as they come.) But one way or the other, you *must* resolve this situation.

Now *go* and do what must be done.


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## ssampier (Jun 20, 2006)

hong said:
			
		

> "So, how do you know if it's dating or just dating experience?"
> 
> "Well, that's obvious. If you're still single afterwards, it was just dating experience."
> 
> ...




Sure why not?


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## DungeonmasterCal (Jun 20, 2006)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> Unknown Soul, you've got to _end the friendship_. End. It.
> 
> I hope this works out for you -- I really, really do. (I'm as big a romantic as they come.) But one way or the other, you *must* resolve this situation.
> 
> Now *go* and do what must be done.




Yup...I agree.  I'm about to be in the same scenario as Brendan Frasier, too.  I'm about to lay down the law on a relationship I've been building for months.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 21, 2006)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Yup...usually about the time the person who was seeking advice starts describing their worst traits as points of pride
> 
> "_why can't women just look past the fact that I am fat and don't wash? Why do they have to be so shallow_?"
> 
> ...




That is a very accurate description of some of the "how can I get women to like me?" threads I've seen around here in the last few years.  It both amuses and amazes me how some people can wear their social ineptitude and lack of style/hygene as a perverse badge of pride.  Thankfully, theUnknownSoul actually seems to be listening to the advice he's been given instead of saying "The world should change to accomodate me, not the other way around."


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## Treebore (Jun 21, 2006)

First rule of successful living: Adapt or die!

Lets face it, the world is a heck of a lot tougher than we are, so it will always win. So we best find out and adapt to what the world does let us do. Hopefully things that are for the better, because the world is just fine with letting you crash and burn if you want to. Its fine with letting you take down loved ones, complete strangers, and everyone in between. Our decisions and how we act upon them are what determines what we do and what we accomplish, or what we fail at, whether we quit, or whether we keep going. It is all up to us.

Its no ones fault but the person you see in the mirror every time you look. Unless of course you came down with a cancer that you did nothing to increase your chances of getting, or you get dragged into someone elses crash and burn and they take you out. There are a lot of things that are completely out of our ability to control, but there is a lot that is within our abillity, and the key is to honestly acknowledge which is which and to live as best we can.


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## MavrickWeirdo (Jun 21, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> First rule of successful living: Adapt or die!
> 
> Lets face it, the world is a heck of a lot tougher than we are, so it will always win. So we best find out and adapt to what the world does let us do. Hopefully things that are for the better, because the world is just fine with letting you crash and burn if you want to. Its fine with letting you take down loved ones, complete strangers, and everyone in between. Our decisions and how we act upon them are what determines what we do and what we accomplish, or what we fail at, whether we quit, or whether we keep going. It is all up to us.
> 
> Its no ones fault but the person you see in the mirror every time you look. Unless of course you came down with a cancer that you did nothing to increase your chances of getting, or you get dragged into someone elses crash and burn and they take you out. There are a lot of things that are completely out of our ability to control, but there is a lot that is within our abillity, and the key is to honestly acknowledge which is which and to live as best we can.




But how do you Really feel?


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 21, 2006)

Treebore said:
			
		

> First rule of successful living: Adapt or die!
> 
> Lets face it, the world is a heck of a lot tougher than we are, so it will always win. So we best find out and adapt to what the world does let us do. Hopefully things that are for the better, because the world is just fine with letting you crash and burn if you want to. Its fine with letting you take down loved ones, complete strangers, and everyone in between. Our decisions and how we act upon them are what determines what we do and what we accomplish, or what we fail at, whether we quit, or whether we keep going. It is all up to us.
> 
> Its no ones fault but the person you see in the mirror every time you look. Unless of course you came down with a cancer that you did nothing to increase your chances of getting, or you get dragged into someone elses crash and burn and they take you out. There are a lot of things that are completely out of our ability to control, but there is a lot that is within our abillity, and the key is to honestly acknowledge which is which and to live as best we can.



 This is very similar to a quote from George Bernard Shaw I heard a while back...

_"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, they make them."_


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 21, 2006)

I'm glad to see this things still alive and kicking!

First Off: Not much news on the Kay front. Aside from some IM and phone conversation (mostly on pleasant, unrelated topics) we've been busy with the rest of our lives. 

Secondly: (addressing TB/DJ "why I can't meet girls" threads) I can honestly say I'm glad I never got into the "why doesn't the world understand me" mindset. I bathe. I'm overweight without being obese (and I've dropped 30 pounds in the last year, still working on more). I dress well. I'm socialable, but not terribly outgoing. I've probably got some damn annoying character traits (opinionated is probably the first one) but overall I realize the world doesn't revolve around me and that if things aren't going my way, I'm the one who needs to re-evalutate and take stock, not the world.

Thirdly: (Addressing Josh Randell) Thats what got this whole ball rolling. Back in April, I finally told her what I felt. About her. The party. Everything. I avoided the three L's (Love, Lust, Loneliness) but told her the rest. 

Since then, I've gotten the "no feelings/just friends" statements, intermixed with occasionally "leading" comments or actions. Not surprisingly, some of them contradict each other (I was the first boy she brought home her parents liked, but later her parents have liked all her "friends", just not her "boyfriends". Grrr). 

Since April, almost everytime we got together (in person, not talking on the phone, email or IM) the topic has come up again. Hell, the topic came up 1/2 hour BEFORE the infamous goodnight kiss(es). Hence my original conundrum. 

The original aspect of this post was "Is she leading me on or just playing", but I think there is much more complexity than that to it. If she's leading me on, she's doing it a.) to keep me wrapped or b.) Unconsciously. Possibly c.) She's testing the water, but afraid to dive in. I guess d.) All of the above could be true also. 

Time will settle the dust back, so that emotions/hormones won't cloud judgements. Then, when the time is right (and there is no point in pushing this before its time) there will be one, final discussion. Hopefully, that will end this saga and we will get on with our lives, either together or seperately. I don't think that will be today, or tomorrow. But it will be soon, I can sense that.

Again, thanks for the help, concern, criticism and everything else that has lead me up to this point. [cartman] I love you guys [/cartman]


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 21, 2006)

Why don't you just ask her why she keeps kissing you? That would save a ton of time.


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## MavrickWeirdo (Jun 22, 2006)

If she's a gamer go for it, 
If she isn't dump her.


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## Dark Jezter (Jun 22, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> Secondly: (addressing TB/DJ "why I can't meet girls" threads) I can honestly say I'm glad I never got into the "why doesn't the world understand me" mindset. I bathe. I'm overweight without being obese (and I've dropped 30 pounds in the last year, still working on more). I dress well. I'm socialable, but not terribly outgoing. I've probably got some damn annoying character traits (opinionated is probably the first one) but overall I realize the world doesn't revolve around me and that if things aren't going my way, I'm the one who needs to re-evalutate and take stock, not the world.




Hey, glad to hear about the weight loss.  Losing 30 lbs is definately something to be proud of. 

It's also good to hear that keep a good personal appearance and try to be sociable, and that you realize that the world dosen't revolve around you.  I'm sure that things will work out for you just fine, with or without Kay.


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## Bront (Jun 22, 2006)

Having not read much else after your initial post...

Be honest and up front about your feelings with her.  Tell her you care for her strongly and would like to be more than just friends.  Talk about them, including why you think so (and I hope it's more than just how she was dressed for a party).  Be up front and honest with her, and only go by what you feel now, not what you hope to feel later.

And then listen to her.  Let her talk about how she feels, about you and about relationships in general.  Talk about them, and be open, honest, and a friend (not someone trying to be a boyfriend) to her about it.

If, after that, she's set on seeing you only as a good friend, leave it at that, and move on for now.  Her feelings may change, but don't count on it, and don't hope for it.  Remember, if you are close friends now, dating may destroy that if things don't work out (Some people can't get along with their exes).  But you should be happy you have a close friend, and a talk like this could convince her your efforts are genuine, and that may convince her to take a chance, or it may not, but at least you've been open and honest about it with her.


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## ssampier (Jun 22, 2006)

Dark Jezter said:
			
		

> This is very similar to a quote from George Bernard Shaw I heard a while back...
> 
> _"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in this world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want, and, if they can't find them, they make them."_




This sounds more positive than Treebore's comments for some reason.

I'm stubborn, I often do things my own way. Others do things their way; we're both happy. :\


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## Rel (Jun 22, 2006)

Bront said:
			
		

> Having not read much else after your initial post...
> 
> Be honest and up front about your feelings with her.  Tell her you care for her strongly and would like to be more than just friends.  Talk about them, including why you think so (and I hope it's more than just how she was dressed for a party).  Be up front and honest with her, and only go by what you feel now, not what you hope to feel later.
> 
> ...




NOT!


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jun 22, 2006)

Mavrick: I'm trying to seduce her to the dork side... I kinda got a lukewarm response.   

d20 Dwarf: ... You know, the simplest answers are the ones you tend to overlook.


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## tonym (Jun 26, 2006)

Maybe you are merely this girl's "friend" because she knows she doesn't inspire passion in you.  

Me, I don't see passion in your posts.  Just run-of-the-mill desire.

This girl has already kissed you and dropped hints.  Yet, despite this HUGE signal that she likes you, your big plan is to wait for her to kiss you again, at which point you plan to kiss her back.  

Huh?

Heck, you are so passion-deficient that you put her in charge of the pacing!  Her!!

It is not her responsibility to initiate any more kisses.   She gave you the go ahead!  Her work is done.  If her kiss doesn't inspire enough passion in you to make you stop analyzing and worrying and *just kiss her* when you want to kiss her, then she's right to keep you at arm's distance.  

A girl should be in a relationship with someone who, having kissed her, cannot control himself thereafter. 

PASSION!  Is it in you?

Tony M


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## Fishbone (Jun 26, 2006)

I say you've got to be forceful. You've got a great chance here. You've been friends with her for almost a decade, you're smart(You are posting at Enworld, after all  ). I say you're being too reactive, it's time to be proactive. Lay your cards on the table, take her out to dinner and a movie, and put the mack on her.


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## Joshua Randall (Jun 26, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> It is not her responsibility to initiate any more kisses.   She gave you the go ahead!  Her work is done.  If her kiss doesn't inspire enough passion in you to make you stop analyzing and worrying and *just kiss her* when you want to kiss her, then she's right to keep you at arm's distance.



100% agree.

Unknown Soul, she wants you to kiss her.

Let me say that again:

_She wants you to kiss her._

So stop reading a f---ing message board and go do it.


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## doktorziplok (Jun 27, 2006)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Why don't you just ask her why she keeps kissing you? That would save a ton of time.



 THAT IS HOW SHE MANIPULATES OTHERS TO BEND TO HER WILL.  (dc35 save or die)

i'll venture that a closer inspection of this young lady's past relationships show a long trail of such mind-humpery. 

run, run as fast as you can.  




			
				treebore said:
			
		

> You didn't say she was a Ohio/Michigan girl! Run!! Its 98% likely running is the smartest thing to do. Man! It amazes me how many train wreck females live in that area.



quoted for truth


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## Tequila Sunrise (Jun 27, 2006)

Something that I learned recently from my last girlfriend is that women have different attractions than men do. While men are more or less attracted to any female, women are inexplicably attracted to only certain men! There's no ryhme or reason to which men they are attracted to (though I've heard about scientists researching human pheremones and how they relate to this topic); in my experience, the great girls are attracted to the fewest guys.

"Men fall in love to get laid; love is an end in itself. Women fall in love for an individual purpose; love is a means to an end."

As to the 'friends with benefits' thing, I don't have any personal experience with it, even indirectly. I will say that if you in the end decide to not stop hanging out with her, you might as well get those benefits, seeing as how you're already emotionally attached to her. And who knows, maybe getting her laid will help her become emotionally attached to you.

One thing that I can definitively tell you is a trait that is common to all successful people (in relationships and out): 'Give it a shot; and if it doesn't work out, try something new.' I'm not saying that this is easy (not least of all for me; I'm terrified of rejection), but it's the one tried and true method to success.


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## Hypersmurf (Jun 27, 2006)

Tequila Sunrise said:
			
		

> "Men fall in love to get laid; love is an end in itself. Women fall in love for an individual purpose; love is a means to an end."




... wait, aren't your corrolaries reversed there?

-Hyp.


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## Joshua Randall (Jun 27, 2006)

I heard it put like this:

_Women have sex because of the possibility of love. Men have sex because of the possibility of sex._


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## ssampier (Jun 28, 2006)

Sounds about right. Is that a bad thing?


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## Montague68 (Jun 30, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> I'm glad to see this things still alive and kicking!
> 
> First Off: Not much news on the Kay front. Aside from some IM and phone conversation (mostly on pleasant, unrelated topics) we've been busy with the rest of our lives.
> 
> ...




Teflon Billy put it right, as did others here. If I may be so bold as to lay down the skinny on what is happening here, I'll do so from my 38 years of experience on this rock, and this might be a little blunt so forgives me:

She likes you. She cares about you. She doesn't find you repulsive. And you fill a need for her.

She may date you for a while, she might even boink you.

But you don't instill the heart-throbbing, sweaty-hands, oh-my-God-ravish-me feelings for her, and you never will. And she knows this. She knows, perhaps subconsciously, that someday she will meet Mr. Swoon and that she's gonna hurt you something fierce.

If I had a dollar every time I've seen this I'd never have to work again.

Ignore the talk about her "loveless relationships" and "afraid to love again" crap, because it's doublespeak nonsense because she doesn't want to hurt your feelings. Women and men both use those words as crutches to explain misgivings about a potential mate. You had a bad experience with your former girlfriend - you really worried about getting hurt? Hell no! You'd take Kay in a minute. 

And she would take you too - if she felt the same passion for you. But she doesn't.

You need to write her off emotionally Unknown Soul. Quit fantasizing about her, get her out of your head. Unfortunately this usually means cutting off all contact with her. If you can do it and still be friends with her, all power to you, but from my experience that isn't the case.

The first, foremost, and ultimate thing ya gotta remember - she's just one girl. You're not doomed to loneliness for all eternity if you let her go. Get out there, put out feelers (not literally, ye pervert!) and get out into the world. Trust me when you get the right one, you'll know it.

Good luck.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jul 8, 2006)

*Update*

Kay and I had spoken on and off for two weeks leading to this. Nothing horribly interesting; though I did get invited to go see Pirates 2 with her (actually, it got mentioned that the movie was opening on Friday and we couldn't make it, and then it became "Are we still going to see Pirates on Saturday?" I got the hint). 

Yesterday was Cedar Point. 12 solid hours of her and I and nobody else. and rollercoasters. 

She came over in a slightly foul mood. I found out why, her "aunt" visited her and because of that she couldn't wear a swimsuit on the water-rides, and she had all the classic symptoms. Not the best way to start this day. 

Got down there with no problems. Even joked about the "bennies" thing. 

11AM-7PM: Great time had by all. Aside from my fear of heights, I was fine. She enjoyed herself. good. 

Drive Home: We talked about the future, career's, life, family, religion, etc. Nothing specifically brought up about us. 

Pit Stop: Thirty, we stop at a gas station for some drinks. Turns out, everything I suggested to the question "I don't know what to get" was crap. Everything she suggested to me was crap I didn't drink. 5 minute conversation on the benefits and hindrances of Dr. Pepper vs. 7-UP (I don't like Dr. Pepper but like 7-Up, she's the opposite). Back to the road.

Finally get back to near home. Stop to local Bar & Grill for dinner. Things still smooth. 

Then disaster struck. ICEBURG, DEAD AHEAD!

On the topic of pets, 
Kay: "I love my pet, moreso than I do any person. I just don't trust anyone. Not even my folks" 
TUS: chokes on an ice-cube. 
Kay: "I've gotten close to people before, and its hurt me. Now, I don't get close to anyone. I can't trust anyone, cuz when I do, I get hurt. So I've stopped, completely."
TUS: "Even me?"
Kay: "Everyone." 

The explanation lasts the rest of the car-ride home, plus an hour longer. I plead a case that even if she can't love me, she can TRUST me. She pulls some line about giving up on people, focusing on her career, and realizing she's dying alone, etc. Point blank, she tells me: 
"You deserve someone good. Someone who will take care of you. I'm not that person. I'm too [messed] up. I can't return all that you'd give me."

Game. Set. Match. Despite the plans to meet tonight, we leave in a somber mood. No goodnight kiss, "not on the lips" I hug her and leave.
.................
Maybe it was sun, or hormones, or tiredness, but I can't deny what she said. I feel hurt as a potential lover, but I almost feeled betrayed as a friend. That she can't trust me, or won't. 

So, its time to move on. Keep in contact, but look for new and greener pastures. The time has come.

Thanks to everyone again.


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## MavrickWeirdo (Jul 8, 2006)

This is going to sound stupid (but when has that ever stopped me before)

Congratulations.

You now have clear resolution/closure.


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jul 8, 2006)

MavrickWeirdo said:
			
		

> This is going to sound stupid (but when has that ever stopped me before)
> 
> Congratulations.
> 
> You now have clear resolution/closure.




That's my thought too.


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## Mycanid (Jul 8, 2006)

Hoorah for you sir - it's nice when things like this are OVER heart wise.

Even though it may hurt its better than having a nagging thing going on bugging and digging into you for ever.

It's nice she was so straightforward. Makes things easier for you I hope.


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## Treebore (Jul 8, 2006)

What did I say?! What did I say about girls in Ohio and Michigan? Loves her dog more than anyone? Been hurt so she can't trust no one? At least she is honest enough to know and admit she is messed up! At least she is one step above most girls around there!

All right. I've ran into girls like her before. I know what she probably wants you to do. I'm not going to tell you. I am going to tell you to do what is best for you. Keep walking until you meet the real woman of your dreams.

Should be in about 6 to 10 months and through a friend of a friend is the way it usually goes. So just be patient. It actually took me over two years. The wait has made the last 16 years almost solid gold, relationship wise. Life itself has had some serious downs, but she was right there by my side, and I was by hers.

Patience is a virtue. Seriously.

trust me, she was just a warm up for the real thing. When the real thing hits you'll have no idea. You think you know what is going to be good? When she comes along you'll find it better than you can imagine.

She'll be worth the wait and a whole lot more. Just get your life and finances in order as best you can while your waiting.


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## Rel (Jul 9, 2006)

All things considered, it could have gone a lot worse.

Have fun with the next phase of the operation.


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## Dark Jezter (Jul 12, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> So, its time to move on. Keep in contact, but look for new and greener pastures. The time has come.
> 
> Thanks to everyone again.




I know this is gonna sound cliche, but you're really better off without her.  She's got way too much emotional baggage to make persuing her worthwhile.

It's also good to see that you have a positive attitude about the whole thing.  Accepting that she dosen't feel the same way as you and resolving to move on is a lot healther than sinking into despair and self-pity or foolishly trying to "win her back" despite what just happened.

Good luck, man!


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## tonym (Jul 12, 2006)

She's testing you.
To pass the test, you must strangle her dog.  
He is the only thing standing between you and happiness.

Hoowee, that's some excellent advice.

If she has a hamster or a goldfish, you better strangle them too.  Then after she stops crying, give her a hug and tell her that your strangling days are over.  Probably.



Tony M


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## papastebu (Jul 12, 2006)

tonym said:
			
		

> Maybe you are merely this girl's "friend" because she knows she doesn't inspire passion in you.
> 
> Me, I don't see passion in your posts.  Just run-of-the-mill desire.
> 
> ...




When my wife and I met 13 years ago, I immediately thought she was about the hottest thing walking, and began to chat her up. I asked her out about an hour later. I could not help myself. My dad has often said to me, "Never lie down with a woman who has more problems than you do. When you wake up the next day, her problems are your problems, and you both wind up crazy."
I didn't so much ignore this sage advice as never give it a moment's consideration. Once again, I couldn't help myself. My wife gets into my head when I want privacy. She starts arguments when I'm trying to be sweet. She spends money we don't have on things we don't need.

I could probably live without her.
I most assuredly wouldn't wish to.
If that's how you feel about this girl, then don't make exceptions, don't let her tell you how to feel or what to do, and under--almost--no circumstances should you take "no" for an answer, unless that's the answer you want.

All that said, be respectful, and as kind as you are able.


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## tonym (Jul 12, 2006)

papastebu said:
			
		

> When my wife and I met 13 years ago, I immediately thought she was about the hottest thing walking, and began to chat her up....




Same here.  I'm shy around the ladies.  But when I met Rebecca, I couldn't stop myself.  I had to talk to her and ask her out.  I was compelled!!  I was...*assertive*!

And now she and I are married and have 4 children.  Yay!  


Tony M


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jul 12, 2006)

papastebu said:
			
		

> If that's how you feel about this girl, then don't make exceptions, don't let her tell you how to feel or what to do, and under--almost--no circumstances should you take "no" for an answer, unless that's the answer you want.
> 
> All that said, be respectful, and as kind as you are able.




I guess the problem is I haven't been making exceptions for 3 years solid. Looking back, I realize its been this way for a long time, but I was too stubborn/stupid to realize. All the hints were there, but I was SO determined to win her over, I ignored them. It came to this, which is sad, because it might have hurt our friendship. 

I'm not saying its my fault; there were PLENTY of mixed signals (hence this thread). Kay might even have feelings for me, but she is sure as hell not going to share them pr even admit them. Not now, maybe not ever. I'm 27 years old, I can't wait forever on a girl who MIGHT one day realize what a good guy I am. I need to start looking elsewhere also. 

I'm not going to stop being her friend. I'll always be close with her and I'd do anything to help her. She has demons she needs to exorcise out before she can/will open up completely to anyone. That may be 2 years or 20 years in the future. I don't know, but I know I can't keep waiting for a vain hope she'll change her mind. I'm off to meet some new people somehow. Be more receptive to new experiences. Get my life together. Maybe even strike out on my own sometime. If I meet someone new, I'm blessed for that. If she realizes she make a grievious error and changes her mind, we'll see where that goes too. 

But I'm not going to blind myself with false hope.


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## Dark Jezter (Jul 12, 2006)

papastebu said:
			
		

> My dad has often said to me, "Never lie down with a woman who has more problems than you do. When you wake up the next day, her problems are your problems, and you both wind up crazy."




Damn, that's some good advice right there!

Your dad is a genius.



> If that's how you feel about this girl, then don't make exceptions, don't let her tell you how to feel or what to do, and under--almost--no circumstances should you take "no" for an answer, unless that's the answer you want.




I gotta disagree with this one.  Continuing to persue a woman even if she's made it abundantly clear that she's not interested may work out in the movies, but in real life it makes you a stalker.  It will annoy the woman at best, or at worst make her fear for her own safety.


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## Montague68 (Jul 13, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> . But I'm not going to blind myself with false hope.




Sorry to hear it went badly. However, I am glad for you that you got some closure.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea for you to stay close with this girl, at least in the short run. Take some time away and clear your head because I don't think you're out of the woods yet. Once she sees you're not paying as much attention to her and not there for her emotional support as much as you were, she'll start up again. "Maybe I was mistaken about not trusting people..." blah blah blah. You need to be ready for that and be able to tell her no, because it will happen - trust me when I tell you.


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## Rel (Jul 13, 2006)

I've got a question:  Who needs a friend who flat out says they don't trust you?


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## TheUnknownSoul (Jul 13, 2006)

Rel said:
			
		

> I've got a question:  Who needs a friend who flat out says they don't trust you?




I asked that myself during the hour long convesation that followed that comment. Her answer: She TRUSTS people, but insofar. She could tell me any secret, and believes I'd respect her privacy (heh). Remember, she did suggest room-mating and even "benefits" which suggests a level trust you don't give to just anyone. 

I think she means (and I can't be sure, just guessing) that she doesn't trust anyone to be there when the chips are down. That in the end, believing anyone (friends, family) is looking out for her and not there own best interest (IE not screw her over to further themselves) and thus, any time she draws close to someone (boyfriends, girl-mates, even her sibling) and feels she can let them in, she gets heart-broken and feels used. So, she stops letting people get that close, so that if/when they screw her over, she can say "eh, s/he didn't that much anyway". 

Two problems with that theory. 1.) Its self-fullfilling. She shuts people out, so they don't get close, so that its easier to "screw" her over. and 2.) It assumes you can switch emotions on/off like a light. I don't believe either. As a personal third, I don't think she "believes" all that she's saying. Some of that might have been a "screw the world" type speech that had less to do with me and more to do with general dissatisfaction with how her life is currently. 

All in all, I think she said more thinks that she meant to, that they hurt more than she wanted. However, the damage was done; I can't seem to put the same level of trust in her that I once did. She was my best friend, now she's just an old friend. Thus, I learn to keep my distance also and not get so caught up. She may yet see her way through this, and I hope for her sake she does. But once again, I'm not going to hold a candle waiting for her.


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## ssampier (Jul 18, 2006)

> Thus, I learn to keep my distance also and not get so caught up. She may yet see her way through this, and I hope for her sake she does. But once again, I'm not going to hold a candle waiting for her.




Sounds like a fantastic idea to me. REALLY.

I wish you the best.


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## Son_of_Thunder (Jul 21, 2006)

papastebu said:
			
		

> My dad has often said to me, "Never lie down with a woman who has more problems than you do. When you wake up the next day, her problems are your problems, and you both wind up crazy."




Wise man, your father. Best. Advice. Ever.


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## Son_of_Thunder (Jul 21, 2006)

TheUnknownSoul said:
			
		

> She was my best friend, now she's just an old friend. Thus, I learn to keep my distance also and not get so caught up. She may yet see her way through this, and I hope for her sake she does. But once again, I'm not going to hold a candle waiting for her.




Smart man. Keep thinking like this. The worlds a huge ocean. No need to wait for this one clownfish. I've got a similar experience behind me and cutting the threads were the best thing I ever did. Met my wife 8 mo. later.


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## Mr. Draco (Jul 30, 2006)

Congrats on the resolution US!



			
				tonym said:
			
		

> She's testing you.
> To pass the test, you must strangle her dog.
> He is the only thing standing between you and happiness.
> 
> ...




You, sir, are very lucky I wasn't drinking anything while reading your post.  If I was you'd be on the receiving end of a bill for a new keyboard.


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