# What would you use a d4 and d12 for?



## ferratus (Dec 15, 2009)

The most unloved dice in the game are the d4 and the d12.  What would you use them for so that they can see more action in the game if you were designing your own old school D&D clone?


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## amysrevenge (Dec 15, 2009)

Depends on your version.  In 4E I use d12s all the time.


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## Rykion (Dec 15, 2009)

The d4 makes a perfect caltrop.  The d12 works well as a random hour generator.


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## caudor (Dec 15, 2009)

Rykion said:


> The d4 makes a perfect caltrop.  The d12 works well as a random hour generator.




Once again, someone beat me to the punch 

I have stepped on a d4 with bare feet.  And it hurts like hell.  d4s really are better weapons than they are dice.


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## Vorput (Dec 15, 2009)

Rykion said:


> The d4 makes a perfect caltrop.




The initiation ceremony to join our group always began with The Walk of a Thousand d4s.


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## Celebrim (Dec 15, 2009)

ferratus said:


> The most unloved dice in the game are the d4 and the d12.  What would you use them for so that they can see more action in the game if you were designing your own old school D&D clone?




I would use d4's where I wanted low variation in the mechanic and an average result of 2.5 per die.  I would use d12's where I wanted high variation and an average result of 6.5 of per die.  

So, for example, if I was starting from scratch, a spell that produced a cloud of fire would probably have d4 denominated damage, representing everything being roughly evenly cooked.  A spell that on the other hand flung shards of metal about would probably have d12 denominated damage, representing random variation in the size and density of the shards that hit you.  We could keep these spells roughly balanced in terms of damage output.

For example, the firecloud spell of a certain wizard might do 12d4 damage, for an average of 30.  The schrapnel blast spell of the same wizard might do 4d12 damage, for an average of 26 or perhaps 6d12 damage for an average of 39 (with the choice being based on how relatively easy it was to protect against fire and physical damage).  

In 1e where dice often lived in isolation (no modifiers), I often used different combinations of dice purely to get a slowly advancing increment of improvement, as in:

1d10 < 1d6+1d4 < 1d12 < 2d6 < 3d4 < 2d6+1

to represent increasingly dangerous claw attacks (for example).

And sometimes were the modifiers are fixed, you just use increasing die size to represent increasing magnitude.  3e does this with HD and weapons, for example.


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## noffham (Dec 15, 2009)

I combined them.  One of the dice dealers at Gen Con has a d12 with the digits 1-4 repeated three times; a less dangerous d4 that actually rolls!


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## Oni (Dec 15, 2009)

I thought about changing Hit die to 1d4, 1d4+1, 1d4+2, 1d4+3, et c. to par down the results of extreme rolls, while still maintaining some variability.  It also feeds into a multi-classing system that I've been trying to make workable the d4's are based highest level as the HD for non-combatants, and then the bonus can be added by taking levels in a semi combatant or combatant class like thief or fighter.  

I got nothin' for the d12, sorry.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 15, 2009)

actually i fear one d4 more than 1000 ....


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## Celebrim (Dec 15, 2009)

noffham said:


> I combined them.  One of the dice dealers at Gen Con has a d12 with the digits 1-4 repeated three times; a less dangerous d4 that actually rolls!




Nice.  I want one of those.


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## El Mahdi (Dec 15, 2009)

deleted


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## Hjorimir (Dec 15, 2009)

El Mahdi said:


> Aren't d4's one of the most used dice for a wizard/sorcerer character due to magic missiles (at least every edition except 4E)?
> 
> A high level wizard character in 2E and 3E definitely needed a few d4's.



Well 4e Magic Missile still uses d4s, just not quite as many.


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## Celebrim (Dec 15, 2009)

El Mahdi said:


> A high level wizard character in 2E and 3E definitely needed a few d4's.




Not as many as you needed in 1e when the number wasn't capped by level.

Between magic missile and cone of cold (much safer indoors than other evocations), I rolled alot of d4's back in the day.


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## Oryan77 (Dec 16, 2009)

Rykion said:


> The d4 makes a perfect caltrop.  The d12 works well as a random hour generator.




Another fun way to get use out of both of those dice is to roll the d12 under a players feet as he walks towards the table, then he falls backwards and lands on the d4 that you strategically placed in that area.


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## jbear (Dec 16, 2009)

Make daggers the only weapon that people are legally allowed to carry in the campaign world. All use of other weapons (and dice) is considered high-heresy! Use d12 axes at your own risk!!!


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## Nai_Calus (Dec 16, 2009)

Rykion said:


> The d4 makes a perfect caltrop.  The d12 works well as a random hour generator.




d24s work better for hours. 

You know, I have never yet actually rolled a d12 in a game. Come to think of it, I haven't used d4s either. 

I need to find a use for all these d3s, d5s, d7s, d14s, d16s, d24s and d30s I've got.


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## blargney the second (Dec 16, 2009)

Get a vicious dagger - best of both worlds!


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## Theo R Cwithin (Dec 16, 2009)

Rykion said:


> The d12 works well as a random hour generator.



 d12 has lots of nice time uses: 
hours, minutes (increments of 5 mins) and seconds (ditto); 
months & related items like birthstones; 
zodiac.


Also, random donut generator.


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## Quantarum (Dec 16, 2009)

I love the D12 so much that I usually make my random encounter charts 1-12. As for the D4 it seems to get a good bit of use at our gaming table.

-Q.


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## pawsplay (Dec 16, 2009)

d4s are good for monstrous insect bites.


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## Dice4Hire (Dec 16, 2009)

blargney the second said:


> Get a vicious dagger - best of both worlds!




Good idea. Nice to have your crit damage outclass your weapon's damage. I had that once with a 1W d6 power that did 4d10 crit. The weapon damage looked awful lonely, specially when I rolled the 4d10 again the next turn.


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## Aran Thule (Dec 16, 2009)

Both have had far more use then the d30 and d100 i had.
I like the d12, it reminds me of the 'dodo' space station in some versions of Elite.
But alas i cant remember really using one, but might get the T-Shirt

Your d12 Cries Itself to Sleep. : The Order of the Stick Store!


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## delericho (Dec 16, 2009)

ferratus said:


> The most unloved dice in the game are the d4 and the d12.  What would you use them for so that they can see more action in the game if you were designing your own old school D&D clone?




Wizards would have three categories of offensive spells: force, energy and kinetic. Force effects would do damage in d4's. Targets would get a save, but there would be no applicable resistances. Energy effects would do damage in d6's. Targets would get a save, and the various energy resistances would apply (and be quite common). Kinetic effects (e.g. a summoned spear) would do damage in d8's. No save, but the Wizard would have to make a (standard) attack roll to affect the target.

Daggers, hand crossbows, and similar weapons would also do d4 damage. Also, effects that add dice of damage would add dice of the same base type - so sneak attack (or its equivalent) with a dagger would do Nd4 damage.

It is the d12 that I have problems finding a use for (IIRC, the 3e designers almost wrote it out of the game, so I guess I'm in good company). My dream game has fixed hit points per level (so out go d12s for Barbarian, Dragon and Undead hit dice), and the d12 greataxe damage (and x3 crit!) are really too swingy.

I guess I would still use it for the most potent weapons in the game (essentially, two-handed Exotic weapons), some monster natural attacks (dragon bite damage?), and some of the most deadly spells.

Of course, it might also be worth noting that I'm not really interested in doing an "old school" D&D clone. I'm much more interested in doing "my own 3.75e" or perhaps a "SWSE/D&D" hybrid. IMO, old school is more about attitude as you play the game, rather than particular rule structures. (Or, perhaps, if it is about the rules, then nothing other than OD&D would really suffice for me.)


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