# WoT Book 11: Knife of Dreams



## Xath (Oct 4, 2005)

Knife of Dreams will be released in exactly one week's time.  Any thoughts?  Speculations?  I found book 10 to be entirely dissappointing.  Jordan had built up so many plots in book 9, and I though they would come to fruition in book 10, but they didn't.  In fact, nothing really happened in book 10.  The main characters barely got 2 chapters each.

But I have hope for book 11.  A lot of people say that they havn't liked any of the books since book 6, and book 6 was the last one to be thoroughly proof-read and fully edited and re-edited.  Well Jordan's taken the hint, and they've gone back to the old way of editing for book 11.  Hopefully it will be a good one.


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## Eosin the Red (Oct 4, 2005)

I think Rand is going to die in this book. No, seriously.... That is my prediction.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 4, 2005)

I'll wait for the series to be finished before I read any more. I'm a little tired of the delays authors like him and Martin seem to have in common.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 4, 2005)

Jeez how many books in this series?


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## drothgery (Oct 4, 2005)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> Jeez how many books in this series?




Jordan seems pretty insistant that it's going to be twelve main sequence books, which is to say one more after _Knife of Dreams_, and  he's under contract for two more prequels.


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## talinthas (Oct 4, 2005)

what? a week?  holy crap, and me in japan unable to get it!
/cries


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## shaylon (Oct 4, 2005)

Well I have to agree with you that book 10 is the suxx.  I am trudging through it in anticipation of the 11th book but it is hard.

I have hopes that book 11 will be more like the first 6 or 7 books.  The last 3 have been terrible.  I want to finish the series because I have invested so much time and enjoyed the first few immensely, but if 11 is bad I may not wait around for the final installment.  If this is the final installment.

I recenly bought the prequel novel but have not read that yet.  Hoping it is decent.  I like Moiraine (sp?) as a character and was a bit sad to see her go.

In book 11 I think that Perrin and Nynaeve will develop an intimate relationship and Lan will slaughter the both of them.  That way I never have to read about either of those boring characters again.  Oh, and Faile will be overcome with grief and commit suicide.  That will get rid of her as well.  At least I still have my dreams.

Since I haven't finished 10 I can't say what I think will happen in 11 but I hope it is better.  I want to see more Rand, Mat, and Egwene.  Those are the characters I like.  Elayne is cool as a secondary character but Perrin and Nynaeve I can do without.  I used to like Perrin but he has done nothing for me since the Great Hunt.  

-Shay


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## Xath (Oct 4, 2005)

Even if book 11 sucks, I'll still have to finish the series.  I've invested too much time into it not to.

Here's my anticipation of what will happen:

Perrin, on his way to rescue Faile, is heading straight towards the area where he encountered Slayer in the wolf dream.  Which also happened to be right near a tower that suspiciously looked like the tower of the Ael'Finn.  So my supposition is that he'll run into Thom Merrilin, and they'll all go to the tower where they'll find Moraine.  (Remember the Ael'finn were very insistant about bringing no instruments of music).  Then there will be some sort of hodge-podge woman debate between Moraine and Nyneave about Lan.


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## shaylon (Oct 4, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Perrin, on his way to rescue Faile, is heading straight towards the area where he encountered Slayer in the wolf dream.




::Groan::  I am only halfway through the 10th book, and he has been looking for her for like 2 books or something now.  He doesn't find her by the end of book 10?  Ugh.



> ...and they'll all go to the tower where they'll find Moraine.  (Remember the Ael'finn were very insistant about bringing no instruments of music).  Then there will be some sort of hodge-podge woman debate between Moraine and Nyneave about Lan.




I hope they do find Moiraine.  That would be pretty cool.  Maybe she can take Nynaeve out!  Sure, healing weaves will be set back into the stone age again but I think the sacrifice will be worth it.

Any thoughts on Rand, Xath?

-Shay


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## GoodKingJayIII (Oct 4, 2005)

I'm sort of hoping the entire planet goes up in a fiery supernova.  I'm determined to finish this series (i.e., line Jordan's pockets with undeserved money), but I just want him to put it to bed.  Don't even get me started on the sequel thing...


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## Rackhir (Oct 4, 2005)

I've read the previous books, but next to nothing happened in #9 and nothing at all happened in #10 (Oopps Should have made that a spoiler!). I'll just have a coffee at the book store and read through it there. I'm not spending any more money on Jordan novels.


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## drothgery (Oct 4, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I've read the previous books, but next to nothing happened in #9




I'm not going to argue that nothing happened in _Crossroads of Twilight_, but don't you think 



Spoiler



cleansing the taint


 was something?

Of course, I think _A Crown of Swords_ and _Winter's Heart _ are quite a bit better than Lord of Chaos, even if The Path of Daggers was just bad and _Crossroads of Twilight_ was dull.


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## Rackhir (Oct 4, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I'm not going to argue that nothing happened in _Crossroads of Twilight_, but don't you think
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That was the one event of significance that occured in the book. It also only took like a chapter maybe two at the very end of the novel. I consider that next to nothing in a book the size of Winter's Heart.


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## Kaodi (Oct 4, 2005)

*A New Spring*

A New Spring reminded me of what it was like to enjoy the Wheel of Time.


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## shaylon (Oct 4, 2005)

Kaodi said:
			
		

> A New Spring reminded me of what it was like to enjoy the Wheel of Time.




Good to hear.  I have that in paperback and plan to start reading that after I get through "Knife".

-Shay


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## Xath (Oct 4, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on Rand, Xath?




Nothing other than that he'll die at the end of book 12.  And leave lots of children behind. Cripes!  Which of his girlfriends isn't pregnant?!

Also, I think he's part of a Shaaran prophecy, but who knows if Jordan will ever get to that?

I'm interested to see what happens to Matt and the Daughter of the Nine Moons.


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## Starman (Oct 4, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> Nothing other than that he'll die at the end of book 12.




But, be resurrected by Nynaeve after three days.


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## Starman (Oct 4, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> I think Rand is going to die in this book. No, seriously.... That is my prediction.




Hmmm, I don't think he'll die until The Last Battle, but he will almost certainly lose his hand in this next book.



			
				shaylon said:
			
		

> I hope they do find Moiraine. That would be pretty cool.




It's going to happen at some point. One of Min's visions was that Rand would not succeed without the aid of a woman who died and came back or some such. That would be Moiraine.


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## Eosin the Red (Oct 5, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I don't think he'll die until The Last Battle, but he will almost certainly lose his hand in this next book.




Could be, but I also think it is possible for him to **really die and still be present at the Last Battle... It gives him a more messianic theme. It might also infuse a little blood into the series and recapture tens of thousands of readers.

** Pretty much given that folks will think him dead at some point in the book.


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## Dagger75 (Oct 5, 2005)

So why Perrin chasing Faile again. I quite at like book 4 or 5 when she was captured.  They have been apart longer than they have been together. Its time to move on Perrin get some other girl and be free.


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## drothgery (Oct 5, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> That was the one event of significance that occured in the book. It also only took like a chapter maybe two at the very end of the novel. I consider that next to nothing in a book the size of Winter's Heart.




The set up for that was all of the Rand/Nynaeve plotline, which is to say about a third of the book.


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## Xath (Oct 5, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> So why Perrin chasing Faile again. I quite at like book 4 or 5 when she was captured.  They have been apart longer than they have been together. Its time to move on Perrin get some other girl and be free.




Well, they are married, and I would say that Perrin would be LG.


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## Rackhir (Oct 5, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> The set up for that was all of the Rand/Nynaeve plotline, which is to say about a third of the book.




Not to mention 



Spoiler



everything going back to the first book was it? When they first saw the giant Ter'Angreal being dug out?


 However much set up there was, the actual events only consumed a chapter or two at the very end of the book. That's pretty much nothing in an 800+ page book by my standards.


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## iwatt (Oct 5, 2005)

Things that will happen:

Mat + Thom + Olver  go into the Snake/Foxes Tower and free Moraine.

Mat finally looses his eye.

The Seanchan attack the White Tower and conveniently kill Elaida and about all the black Ajah.


Things that probably won't happen:

Any of the main characters actually trusting somebody or even accepting advice.

About the book: I read the first chapter and part of the prologue. There was some good and some bad. The good was very cool, the bad was rpetitive Aes sedai plotting BS that basically killed the last 3-4 books.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Oct 6, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> However much set up there was, the actual events only consumed a chapter or two at the very end of the book. That's pretty much nothing in an 800+ page book by my standards.




Still more than happened in Crossroads of Twilight.

Brad


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## ssampier (Oct 6, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> But, be resurrected by Nynaeve after three days.




 really?

I'm behind, since I gave up in Winter's Heart.


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## ToddSchumacher (Oct 6, 2005)

Here is a non-spoilery review of the book:

http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Knife_of_Dreams/review.php

It actually got me  to purchase the prologue and first chapter, and then to re-read all the books. And actually, when read all back to back the last books weren't as bad as I remember.


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## Volaran (Oct 6, 2005)

ToddSchumacher said:
			
		

> Here is a non-spoilery review of the book:
> 
> http://www.dragonmount.com/Books/Knife_of_Dreams/review.php
> 
> It actually got me  to purchase the prologue and first chapter, and then to re-read all the books. And actually, when read all back to back the last books weren't as bad as I remember.




I would have to agree.  I re-read the series thus far back to back earlier this year, and actually found the later books being more enjoyable than I remembered.


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## talinthas (Oct 6, 2005)

i used to always preface a new jordan book by rereading hte series.  unfortunately my books are all in the states now =(
Hopefully i can still get KoD in japan though.


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## Starman (Oct 6, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> really?
> 
> I'm behind, since I gave up in Winter's Heart.




I'm away from my books at the moment, so I can't give any exact pages or anything, however...

Rand is definitely a messianic figure. There have been many hints that his fate is to die, but there has also been clues that he will live after the last battle. Jordan is good at "ironic statements," one being that Nynaeve wouldn't be happy until she "healed someone three days dead." Hence, I think Rand will die and Nynaeve will bring him back three days later.


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## Particle_Man (Oct 6, 2005)

Could I skip some of the books in the middle?  What if I read 1-6 and then 11?  Then I could avoid the sucky parts, and since nothing happens in the later books, I shouldn't be too far behind on the plot, right?


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Oct 6, 2005)

Particle_Man said:
			
		

> Could I skip some of the books in the middle?  What if I read 1-6 and then 11?  Then I could avoid the sucky parts, and since nothing happens in the later books, I shouldn't be too far behind on the plot, right?




No, you would miss quite much. I really like all books besides 10.


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## Mystery Man (Oct 6, 2005)

I'm one of those people that complained by the end of book five that he was dragging the series on and actually _stopped_ reading them. If he ever does finish the series I'll never know.


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## Plane Sailing (Oct 7, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Things that probably won't happen:
> 
> Any of the main characters actually trusting somebody or even accepting advice.




Oo, oo, I think I've already read that one


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## Desdichado (Oct 7, 2005)

I was getting the books on Audiobook from my public library and "rereading" them as I commuted this summer.  I gave up halfway through _Crown of Swords_ in disgust.  I've never read _Winter's Heart_ or _Crossroads of Twilight_.  

I will probably attempt again in a few months, to read the last four books that I haven't read or reread recently so I can read _Knife of Dreams_, though.  Like Xath, I've invested too much into this series to completely abandon it.  And every so often Jordan does remind me of why I used to enjoy his writing when the series was still young.


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## Ratenef (Oct 7, 2005)

I have enjoyed the series as a whole so far.

With the new book coming out (in hardcover) I'll be waiting about a year until I can read it (paperback).

With a series this large, you can't complain that one or two of the books were a little dry.

I have to admit that book 5 or 6 was a bloody pain to get through, but I'll reiterate that the series as a whole is quite good.

I am just worried that Mr. Jordan will die before he finishes the series and the publisher will let some unknown hack 'finish' it........

Winter's Heart was what I would consider a filler book, in that Mr. Jordan needed a bunch of things to happen to get where he intends to go and that this book was just the 'boring' bits of getting the people where he wanted them.

The two big events at the very end of Winter's Heart are what are making me really want to read book 11. I won't go into details, but when I read that last chapter or two, it made the whole book worthwhile.

Oh well, I just have to wait until I can get the newest paperback, and avoid all the spoiler threads, to see how it pans out.


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## Evar Nettlespar (Oct 7, 2005)

I'm in the same boat as Xath, I've invested too much time to not read this series to completion. Having said that, Rand may very well lose his hand in the next book. If i had three wives, i'd no longer need my hand either. If Rand dies, however, it may be from boredom if book 10 was any indication.

On a more serious note, I sincerely hope that Jordan devotes an entire book to the Last Battle and it's aftermath.


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## ssampier (Oct 8, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I'm away from my books at the moment, so I can't give any exact pages or anything, however...
> 
> Rand is definitely a messianic figure. There have been many hints that his fate is to die, but there has also been clues that he will live after the last battle. Jordan is good at "ironic statements," one being that Nynaeve wouldn't be happy until she "healed someone three days dead." Hence, I think Rand will die and Nynaeve will bring him back three days later.




Excuse me if I'm being too literal, but doesn't match the Dragon Prophecies does it? I mean, he is the Dragon Reborn, Lews Therin, reborn. If he can resurrected, why couldn't Lews Therin be resurrected as well? :\

My prediction:



Spoiler



It was all a dream. Rand actually was knocked unconscious by the Trolloc in book 1 and just dreamed he was the Dragon Reborn. In reality the Dragon Reborn is a composite character of various heroes. The Aes Sedai are just a set of pushy women selling a Medieval esque perfume.

Now begins the real story....  cue the next set of 12 to 15 books.


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## Starman (Oct 8, 2005)

ssampier said:
			
		

> Excuse me if I'm being too literal, but doesn't match the Dragon Prophecies does it? I mean, he is the Dragon Reborn, Lews Therin, reborn. If he can resurrected, why couldn't Lews Therin be resurrected as well? :\




Where exactly in the Prophecies does it say that Rand and LTT are the same person? Rand may hear LTT in his head, but he is not LTT. This is a new Age with a new Age Lace. Even when the same Age rolls around again, things don't happen exactly as they did before. 

Note also that Rand was told when he went through the twisted doorway ter'angreal that "To live he must die." Clearly he asked some variation of "How can I survive the Last Battle?" Dying and being resurrected fits the answer perfectly.


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## aanJake (Oct 9, 2005)

*waves*
WoT addict here   I too think that book 10 was disappointing, doing nothing to really further the storylie.  But I think in general the books are amazing and I can't wait for Knife of Dreams to come out on Tuesday (counting down lol).  A bit OT but if you like the Wheel of Time you should check out the link in my signature.  It's a WoT roleplaying site; really cool.

Anyway... any thoughts on who killed Asmodean?  Or those millions of weird Min viewings that are yet to be answered?  The one about Alivia helping to kill Rand really irks me.


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## Orius (Oct 9, 2005)

Only 1 week?  I'm looking forward to it, although I'm debating whether or not to start rereading the entire series now and join the internet debates 2 or 3 months late, or just jump into 11 as soon as the libray gets a copy.  After all, I have copies of Books 1-8 to refer to, and so little happened in books 9 and 10 that I should miss too many important details. Then again too, I might start with Book 8 and just borrow books 9-11 from the library and read those, since I've read the first 7 more times than the others, and I know the early parts of the story better.

So many fans want Perrin to rescue Moiraine from the Tower of Ghenjei that I'm hoping she stays dead just to be contrary.  Still, since the Aelfinn and Eelfinn hate iron and music, it would be fun to see a blacksmith and bard kick their asses.    

I like Perrin, even though he's done less in the more recent books.  Rand has gotten all angsty with his responsibilities as the DR. Mat keeps wanting to cut loose and do his own thing, and he is the most entertaining character to read.  Perrin kind of balances out the humorous stuff with Mat with his more serious and reflective nature.  

The speculation about Rand having to die before the Last Battle is interesting, and it makes sense internally.  However, RJ has had Rand get so angsty about having to die to save the would in the Last Battle, that I think Rand will survive it.   

And what's with all the Faile hate?  Granted she is the most high-strung female character in the entire series, but I can tolerate her better than Egwene, Nynaeve, and most especially Elayne.   She usually seems more sensible than the other 3 put together, she certainly seems  more resourceful than them, and I like the way she puts herself in danger to aid Perrin.  I like how she took the group of nobles who were imitating the Aiel and forged them into her own little spy network.   It's a shame the whole Shaido plot has dragged on for 2 books now without resolution.  She should have been able to get out of that mess by now.

Contrast that with the other 3 girls:  Nynaeve would be the most irritating of the characters, except the fact that she's done some fairly important things, kicking Moghedien's ass *twice*, finding a way to restore the ability to channel and most importantly 



Spoiler



helping Rand to cleanse the taint


,arguably one of the biggest and most important plot events in the series so far.  Personally, and I've said this before, I want to see Cadsuane take on Nynaeve's dislike of the Aes Sedai, show her some discipline and train her to be one of the greatest Aes Sedai in centuries.

Egwene used to be more irritating, but her imprisonment by the Seanchan and her training under the Aiel Wise Women have helped to mature her.  Her most irritating trait is her complaining about how arrogant Rand is with the nobles, yet being a little tyrant herself with the rebel Aes Sedai.

I absolute hate Elayne.  Despite the fact that she's learned how to recreate simple ter'angreal, she is such a whining, annoying, troublemaking brat that I can't see how any fan of the series can possibly like her.  The amount of space wasted on her in the last book did not help my opinion of it either.


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## Xath (Oct 9, 2005)

I think Lanfear killed Asmodean, but I'd have to go back and reread to confirm my suspician.


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## Eosin the Red (Oct 9, 2005)

Orius said:
			
		

> So many fans want Perrin to rescue Moiraine from the Tower of Ghenjei that I'm hoping she stays dead just to be contrary.  Still, since the Aelfinn and Eelfinn hate iron and music, it would be fun to see a blacksmith and bard kick their asses.




It has been awhile since I thought about it but I think Thom, Olver, and Mat will do the saving - not Perrin. I have a hankering that Mat's cannon will come into play.


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## Xath (Oct 10, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> It has been awhile since I thought about it but I think Thom, Olver, and Mat will do the saving - not Perrin. I have a hankering that Mat's cannon will come into play.




But Perrin is the only one who has seen the tower's location from the outside and he's really close to it right now in the book.


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## drothgery (Oct 10, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> I think Lanfear killed Asmodean, but I'd have to go back and reread to confirm my suspician.




http://www.steelypips.org/wotfaq/1_dark/1.1_forsaken1/1.1.6_asmo.html

[Quick version: Graendal or Slayer almost certainly did it; if Slayer did it, then the tricky question is who sent him.]


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## Thunderfoot (Oct 10, 2005)

The biggest discussion around here isn't the books but what we will do if Jordan dies before he finishes the series... I think the general concensus has to do with a keg of beer and public urination on his grave site... :\


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## drothgery (Oct 10, 2005)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> The biggest discussion around here isn't the books but what we will do if Jordan dies before he finishes the series... I think the general concensus has to do with a keg of beer and public urination on his grave site... :\




Eh, as per above, if he's not playing games with his fans, then he's got one book left. Unless he gets hit by a bus, we're safe.


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## Desdichado (Oct 10, 2005)

Evar Nettlespar said:
			
		

> Rand may very well lose his hand in the next book. If i had three wives, i'd no longer need my hand either.



 That's one of the funniest lines I've read all day.


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## Eosin the Red (Oct 10, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> But Perrin is the only one who has seen the tower's location from the outside and he's really close to it right now in the book.




Yeah, BUT  


> The way to "beat" the snakes and foxes is to break the rules. "Courage to strengthen, fire to blind, music to daze, iron to bind."



** Thanks FAQ

Leads me to believe that Olver, Mat, Thom, and maybe even Aludara are the keys to getting Moir... Mat has the cannon and matches, Thom has song, Olver or Mat could be be said to have courage... Plus we know Min has a vision of Thom pulling a blue diamond from a fire. It all basically adds up to Mat's gang taking on the Finn. Only missing the iron "to bind" which could very well be the cannon?


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 11, 2005)

Thunderfoot said:
			
		

> The biggest discussion around here isn't the books but what we will do if Jordan dies before he finishes the series... I think the general concensus has to do with a keg of beer and public urination on his grave site... :\




The wait for Stephen King to finish the Dark Tower was pretty bad too.

Ditto on Game of Thrones.

But if Jordan does go under, let me know if we get a discount on the bus ticket to the grave and I'll bring his old Conan work to help light a bonfire.


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## Volaran (Oct 11, 2005)

Eosin the Red said:
			
		

> Yeah, BUT
> 
> ** Thanks FAQ
> 
> Leads me to believe that Olver, Mat, Thom, and maybe even Aludara are the keys to getting Moir... Mat has the cannon and matches, Thom has song, Olver or Mat could be be said to have courage... Plus we know Min has a vision of Thom pulling a blue diamond from a fire. It all basically adds up to Mat's gang taking on the Finn. Only missing the iron "to bind" which could very well be the cannon?




With two books left, counting this one, Perrin could be there as well.  Iron...blacksmith...makes sense?


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## shaylon (Oct 12, 2005)

Well my copy came from Amazon yesterday, but I still have about 300 pp left of CoT before I can start it.  Anyone reading it?  Anyone finished yet?

*hopes he can finish CoT today*

-Shay


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## Desdichado (Oct 12, 2005)

Early reviews are good.  Looks like lots of plot ends are finally tied up as well, and there's _real_ progress toward Tarmon Gaidon for a change.

According to early reviews anyway.


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## iwatt (Oct 12, 2005)

shaylon said:
			
		

> Well my copy came from Amazon yesterday, but I still have about 300 pp left of CoT before I can start it.  Anyone reading it?  Anyone finished yet?
> 
> *hopes he can finish CoT today*
> 
> -Shay




Well my copy shipped out on saturday. since I'm way down in the southern Hemispher, I have 1-2 weeks before I even get the book.  :\ 

So I'm rereading the various cool chapters. Last night I reread Mat's duel against Galad+Gawyn in the white tower. Makes me want to build a quarterstaff master


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## iwatt (Oct 12, 2005)

Volaran said:
			
		

> With two books left, counting this one, Perrin could be there as well.  Iron...blacksmith...makes sense?




I think this will happen. For him to finish this up he has to tie up loose ends. a godd way is to have connected characters finally tie in together.

So Perrin, Mat, Olver, Tom do the whole rescue Moraine deal. Mat's going North, Perrin's going south, he's going to talk to some Seanchan, Mat has the "big cheesesette" with her. They have to rescue Faile as well (who's probably getting freaky with the Aiel guy by noW    ).

Galad has somehow to join Perrin as well, since he has to get freaky with the Mayener chick ("Beatiful People"    ). Also, Perrin has to finally solve his whole Whitecloak warrant deal at some point.

Gawyn will be intrinsical to saving Egwene, but she'll probably pretend she didn't need his help anyways.   

Rand has to kill somebody. Come on, he's gone through a whole book withou killing anybody. what's the deal?

I can only hope that Jordan tying up plots means more action and less angst ridden bath scenes.


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## shaylon (Oct 13, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> I can only hope that Jordan tying up plots means more action and less angst ridden bath scenes.




Ugh!    I just finished that section in CoT where Elayne and Aviendha have their bath interrupted.  Wow, how uninteresting can the book actually become?  I really hope 11 is remarkable better than 10 because I am sorely disappointed.  In the earlier books I thought his descriptions of people and places were unique and interesting.  Now it appears that he is deliberately trying to stretch out the descriptions so that a 4 line conversation lasts 8 and a 1/2 pages.  I loathe book 10 so far.

I will be so happy when the series is done.  So happy.

-Shay


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## JamesL85 (Oct 13, 2005)

I've been hesitant to respond to the many WoT threads (I might have responded to a couple, here and there) because of all the negativity towards the series......

I'm hoping that this thread will not continue along these lines....


Unfortunately, I've read through all of the previous books (most of them more than once) and can understand the frustration by most readers.......I'm just hoping that this thread is responded to by those with a positive attitude that can actually post something besides "Jordan sucks" and "the last X books sucked," etc.  

We get it.....Some of you don't like the way the series has turned.....I believe a "wah" is in order......

Unless I get the gist of the original posters slant, this is an unusual post that's trying to put a pleasant face on the crap that's been of the last couple (or bunch) of books....

Not trying to put a pleasant face on what's been called a turd (or worse) as far as the series is concerned, I'm just trying to keep up with the thread until I can make it to Manhattan this weekend......No, not New York, Manhattan......Manhattan Kansas........I'm also looking for a book called Footfall that involves an alien invasion of Dighton, KS (or so I'm told)......That will be interesting.......LOL

I'm just hoping that this will continue to be a "positive" thread on the series......


James


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## Rackhir (Oct 13, 2005)

JamesL85 said:
			
		

> I'm also looking for a book called Footfall that involves an alien invasion of Dighton, KS (or so I'm told)......That will be interesting.......LOL




It's by Larry Nivens and Jerry Pournelle.


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## iwatt (Oct 13, 2005)

JamesL85 said:
			
		

> I'm just hoping that this will continue to be a "positive" thread on the series......
> 
> James




Hey, I love this series, I already pre-bougt the last book and am having it shipped halfway across the world.

But there are some things Jordan Fans/haters agree upon: The last couple of books shiftes focus from the core characters with a lot of secondary characters/plots going around. That this is a good or bad thing is a personal opinion.

Also, I hope this thread doesn't get hijacked by the typical "My hat of jOrdan now no limit"


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## Thornir Alekeg (Oct 13, 2005)

JamesL85 said:
			
		

> I'm also looking for a book called Footfall that involves an alien invasion of Dighton, KS (or so I'm told)......That will be interesting.......LOL
> 
> James




I read it years ago.  I recall enjoying the book.  It is a race of elephant-like aliens that invade.  I can't really remember much more than that.  If you can't find it, I may still have my copy in the basement somewhere.

If book 11 turns out as the early reviews indicate, I may actually pick it up.  Anybody know a good website where they sum up the past four books so I won't have any trouble skipping them.  By my understanding it shouldn't be hard to sum up the relevant events from those, just a paragraph or two.


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## Orius (Oct 13, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> So I'm rereading the various cool chapters. Last night I reread Mat's duel against Galad+Gawyn in the white tower. Makes me want to build a quarterstaff master




Same here.  I just started up my KoD prep reread.  I'm going to blow past a lot of the filler in the first 5 or 6 books, since I know those pretty well.  For the first 150 pages I just stuck with the prologue, the intros for Moiraine, Lan, and Thom, Moiraine's tale of Manetheren and some of the other key highlights, and skipped through the more boring Two Rivers intro info.  I know what the place is like already.  

For the next books, I'll probably skip over the boring parts with the girls and the Aes Sedai plots, except for the more pivotal stuff that needs refreshing.  Mat's plotlines will be read in their entirety, because they're a hoot to read.


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## Orius (Oct 13, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> But there are some things Jordan Fans/haters agree upon: The last couple of books shiftes focus from the core characters with a lot of secondary characters/plots going around. That this is a good or bad thing is a personal opinion.




Oh, I totally agree.  There's all that stuff with the Aes Sedai/Windfinders/Kin going on that's boring and takes up a lot of space (not to mention the fact that the myriad of characters introduced in these plots makes things more confusing.  Just who is this woman again?).  There's one or two of these plots I like though, like the group in the White Tower that's hunting down the Black Ajah.  Elayne's succession is another drag.  This should have been finished up by now, especially since I loathe the character and don't like seeing so much space wasted on her.  I can understand that some of the main characters are going to be out of action for a while (like Mat in Book 8), but it's the main characters that people want to read about, not the side characters that are just there for flavor.


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## Taelorn76 (Oct 13, 2005)

I know it might be to soon, but has anyone picked it up yet and read some if not the whole thing? Looking for a spoiler free review. You know has the editing/pace improved things like that. Most importantly does it seem like things are wrapping up.

Thanks


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## KenM (Oct 13, 2005)

I saw it for sale at my local Barnes and Noble. I did not pick it up becuse I don't like the books. I am interested in hearing if this is better then the last couple of books and if Jordan wraps up some of the plotlines.


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## ToddSchumacher (Oct 13, 2005)

I just finishedreading it.

A lot of plot goes forward.

Some plot gets finished.

Nyneave is too cool.

certainly best since Lord of Chaos. And though It might be because its fresh...but I think it might be the best book in the serise so far.


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## frandelgearslip (Oct 14, 2005)

Having read it I can say he is wrapping things up, but its very abrupt.  I think the delaying action he performed with books 7-10 has irrevocably damaged the series.  If he had actually tried to move things forward in those books the series could have been wrapped up perfectly by now.  Instead the books will end, but a lot of things won't be resolved or will be resolved in a craptastic way.

The only other thing I would like to say is that I started the series HATING Mat, but now he is one of the few characters left that I can still stand.


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## Dragonblade (Oct 14, 2005)

I picked it up. As much as the story does drag in places, I consider Jordan the best modern fantasy writer outside of Tolkien. Yes, yes, the George R.R. Martin fans consider that sacrilege. But I just couldn't get into Martin. For some reason, the whole Wheel of Time series just resonates with me at some fundamental level.

Perhaps its the whole Joseph Campbell monomyth thing going on, but I love it. More than anything I would like someone with the right vision to make a film series of the books. If I had the money of Bill Gates, I would pay for it all myself.


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## shaylon (Oct 14, 2005)

Uh, I am not trying to be a Jordan hater, I hope that wasn't directed at me and I in no way meant to come off as such.

I do, however, feel like CoT and pretty much everything after Lord of Chaos, is slow reading.  It is still semi-enjoyable but in no way does it compare to the first 5-6 books.

I am still a fan, Jordan has made quite a bit of money off of me, and I am proud of that.  I stand by the series.

-Shay


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## JamesL85 (Oct 14, 2005)

*hijack thread*
Thanks for all the help with the Footfall book.  One of my classmates is now living in the Pheonix area and told me about it.  Don't know if it actually mentions Dighton, KS, but I'm sure there's a strong hero type by the name of James that is able to save the world.....

OK.....Maybe not.....
*/hijack thread*

I was all set to post a "it's been two days and no one has posted what they thought of it yet?" thread, but Taelorn beat me to the punch.....  

Oh well.....At least we have three posters that have read it.....

I'm assuming Todd's was a positive vote....

Frandelgearslip gave it a "50/50," I'm assuming, as did Dragonblade.....

That's better than 500 people saying that it sucked!!!!

Now I just have to bide my time until Saturday when I can pick my copy up.....  

James


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## drothgery (Oct 14, 2005)

I'm sufficiently sucked into the series that I still buy hardcovers. But not enough that I'll buy them from somewhere other than Amazon, or get anything other than the free shipping with a $25 order. So my copy should be here tomorrow or Saturday (the postal service's online tracking is awful).


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## Taelorn76 (Oct 14, 2005)

JamesL85 said:
			
		

> *hijack thread*
> Thanks for all the help with the Footfall book.  One of my classmates is now living in the Pheonix area and told me about it.  Don't know if it actually mentions Dighton, KS, but I'm sure there's a strong hero type by the name of James that is able to save the world.....
> 
> OK.....Maybe not.....
> ...





Glad I could sneek that in by you.    I too am waiting for saturday to pick up my copy


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## Starman (Oct 14, 2005)

I just finished reading the book myself. In terms of pacing, the book is much better than the past few books. A lot of stuff happens. In fact, as someone else mentioned, some of it felt a bit abrupt. I also with there had been more of Rand. However, I did quite enjoy the book. It was very nice to see plots getting wrapped up and definite progress toward Tarmon Gai'don being made. 

I'm going to start a spoiler thread to talk about it more in depth.


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## shaylon (Oct 14, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> I'm sufficiently sucked into the series that I still buy hardcovers. But not enough that I'll buy them from somewhere other than Amazon, or get anything other than the free shipping with a $25 order. So my copy should be here tomorrow or Saturday (the postal service's online tracking is awful).




I too ordered from Amazon and was surprised to see it arrive on the release date last Tuesday.  I think they must have pulled a JK Rowling and were sitting on it at the post office.  I did preorder it a month ago, however, so maybe that is why I got mine so quickly.

Oh and even though the tracking sucks I love Free Super Saver Shipping!     My closest Amazon warehouse is somewhere around Covington KY I believe.  They say 5-8 days shipping but it is only about 125 miles south of here, I usually get it in 2-3.

Good Luck
-Shay


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## Particle_Man (Oct 15, 2005)

frandelgearslip said:
			
		

> I think the delaying action he performed with books 7-10 has irrevocably damaged the series.  If he had actually tried to move things forward in those books the series could have been wrapped up perfectly by now.  Instead the books will end, but a lot of things won't be resolved or will be resolved in a craptastic way.




Sounds to me like I could read books 1-6, get a coles notes summary for books 7-10 (or just hear a friend who read them summarize the plot so far) and then jump right into book 11.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Oct 15, 2005)

Xath said:
			
		

> But Perrin is the only one who has seen the tower's location from the outside and he's really close to it right now in the book.



Actually Rand, Mat, Bayle Domon and possibly Thom saw the tower in EoTW; they were just really far away from it.

For the two people in the world who don't want WoT spoiled but for some inconceivable reason haven't read The Eye of The World, this is a spoiler...
[sblock]Another time, when the eastward shore had become flat grassland again, broken only occasionally by thickets, the sun glinted off something in the distance. "What can that be?" Rand wondered aloud. "It looks like metal."
Captain Domon was walking by, and he paused, squinting toward the glint. "It do be metal," he said. His words still ran together, but Rand had come to understand without having to puzzle it out. "A tower of metal. I have seen it close up, and I know. River traders use it as a marker. We be ten days from Whitebridge at the rate we go."
"A metal tower?" Rand said, and Mat, sitting cross-legged with his back against a barrel, roused from his brooding to listen.
The captain nodded. "Aye. Shining steel, by the look and feel of it, but no a spot of rust. Two hundred feet high, it be, as big around as a house, with no a mark on it and never an opening to be found."
"I'll bet there's treasure inside," Mat said. He stood up and stared toward the far tower as the river carried the Spray beyond it. "A thing like that must have been made to protect something valuable."[/sblock]


			
				shaylon said:
			
		

> Anyone reading it?  Anyone finished yet?



I got it around 5:00pm or so Tuesday and finished up around 6:00am Thursday (sleep and stuff got in the way). I liked it. Unlike CoT some things actually happened; important things to boot! I was also pleasantly surprised to find that Walden's was offering it at 40% off. With a 5 dollar coupon it came to a little under 13 bucks. Not too shabby at all.


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## Xath (Oct 15, 2005)

I could only get it yesterday.  So far, so good though.


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## Orius (Oct 16, 2005)

Starman said:
			
		

> I'm going to start a spoiler thread to talk about it more in depth.




Yes good.  I'm into my reread atm, and the very last thing I want is a huge story ruining spoiler, you know along the lines of a spoiler that would totally ruin the end of Books 2, 3, 6, or 9 for those who had never read those books.  The howls of outrage coming my computer would travel halfway around the world. Kind of like Westley's howl of despair in _The Princess Bride_ magnified 1,000 times and filled with rage.


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## shaylon (Oct 16, 2005)

I just finished CoT.  I stand by my complaints in this thread, but I can't wait to finish KoD.  I am starting tonight!

Thanks all, this has been a good thread.  Nice chatting with fans of the series, and I always enjoy reading people's interpretations and ideas.

-Shay


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## JamesL85 (Oct 19, 2005)

I'm about 175 pages in so far, and enjoying it so far.....I can't wait to get through it so that I can read the spoiler thread......LOL

James


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## shaylon (Oct 19, 2005)

JamesL85 said:
			
		

> I'm about 175 pages in so far, and enjoying it so far.....I can't wait to get through it so that I can read the spoiler thread......LOL
> 
> James




Me too!  Page 150 for me but I really want to talk about this one!    

Happy reading!
-Shay


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## Banshee16 (Oct 19, 2005)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> So why Perrin chasing Faile again. I quite at like book 4 or 5 when she was captured.  They have been apart longer than they have been together. Its time to move on Perrin get some other girl and be free.




Well, if your wife was kidnapped into slavery, would you give up on her and move on?

Or move earth and heaven until you found a way to rescue her?  Why would Perin do any differently?

Banshee


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## Kylara (Oct 19, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Well, if your wife was kidnapped into slavery, would you give up on her and move on?
> 
> Or move earth and heaven until you found a way to rescue her?  Why would Perin do any differently?
> 
> Banshee




If my hubby put me through what Faile has put Perrin through, I'd be looking for a new Beau (in Perrin's case a new wife) so yea


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## Rackhir (Oct 19, 2005)

According to book 11, It's been 51 DAYS!!! since Faile was kidnapped. Something like 3,000-4,000 pages and ONLY 51 DAY!?!?!

I'm currently up to about page 500 and so far nothing much has happened.


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## shaylon (Oct 19, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> Well, if your wife was kidnapped into slavery, would you give up on her and move on?
> 
> Or move earth and heaven until you found a way to rescue her?  Why would Perin do any differently?
> 
> Banshee




Meh, depends on the wife I guess.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Oct 20, 2005)

Oh, a few more likes and dislikes.

*Disliked...
1:* The lack of Aviendha material in this book is absolutely criminal.
*2:* After 10 books they finally decided to change the design of the (US) hardback covers? Great, _that_ doesn't look out of place on my shelf. Instead of the title and author being printed small, horizontally and at the top of the spine they're written in huge letters vertically along the spine.

*Liked...
1:* At least the new spine layout obscures Sweet's 'artwork' a little.


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## Xath (Oct 20, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> I'm currently up to about page 500 and so far nothing much has happened.




What?!  Tons of stuff has happened by there.  Go back and read Crossroads of Twilight.  That's a book in which nothing happens.


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## iwatt (Oct 20, 2005)

Guys, remember this is a Spoiler free thread please


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## Starman (Oct 20, 2005)

A thread full o' spoilers can be found here though.


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## Roadkill101 (Oct 20, 2005)

I'm a huge WoT fan.  Of the books that is, don't care too much for the D20 campaign.  I've read through the entire series many times, because when a new release is scheduled I begin with book one all over again (which is badly falling apart now), and partly because I need something to read while waiting on one of several favorite authors to release something new.  And then reread the current latest release through at least another two times by itself.

This is the first time, I've not actually reread the series prior to a new release, but i've been busy reading a lot books from the library lately.

I almost put the first book down because it seemed to start off so slowly (when compared to faster action paced stories of the sci-fi/fantasy genre).  In hindsight as a gamer, I now really appreciate the slow start as a good example of how to build a campaign around 0 level characters.

All but the first two books I have in hardback.  My copy of Fires of Heaven is signed by Jordan (my cousin bought it at a book signing and read it before I had purchased it and he just gave it to me).

I've yet to buy Knife of Dreams, mostly because I haven't been paying attention to the date.  Maybe I'll get it tomorrow as I just got my paycheck.

I wish I could remember the site (to provide a link, it's been several months since having seen it) where Jordan explains why he has so many sub-plots, that cause the slow down of the story.  The explanations puts it into a better perspective, making it more tolerable, though the sub-plots and slow down of the main plots have never bothered me personally (and having said that, I could care less how many books the series takes up, beit the stated twelve or a possible twenty, to finish, so long as it does get finished).

The only real complaint I have about the series is the (rather blatant) Men are from Mars, Women from Venus gender biasing where neither gender understands the motivations and actions of the other.  There are better ways for a writer to show a character who is either ignorant of or prejudiced towards the opposite sex.  This is one thing he should've stopped including around book three (IMO).


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## Rackhir (Oct 21, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> Guys, remember this is a Spoiler free thread please




DUOH! I'm sorry I forgot that nothing happening is considered a spoiler for Jordan novels.


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## Xath (Oct 21, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> DUOH! I'm sorry I forgot that nothing happening is considered a spoiler for Jordan novels.




Maybe something actually happening is the spoiler.


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## iwatt (Oct 21, 2005)

Rackhir said:
			
		

> DUOH! I'm sorry I forgot that nothing happening is considered a spoiler for Jordan novels.




LOL

I would have said that was a harsh judgement until after I finished book 10    . I've been rereading this series in preparation for KoD. Reading the Shadow Rising took me about a day in  a half (weekend). The Fires of Heaven one day (sick in bed). CoT..... about a month   , I kid you not.

But I'm a fan. The fact that I keep been entertained by re-reading Jordan's books (and I'm not the only one) means he's doing something right.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Oct 21, 2005)

Roadkill101 said:
			
		

> I almost put the first book down because it seemed to start off so slowly (when compared to faster action paced stories of the sci-fi/fantasy genre).  In hindsight as a gamer, I now really appreciate the slow start as a good example of how to build a campaign around 0 level characters.




Absolutely! This was exactly what I went for when I started planning my campaign world. The PCs (with a few exceptions) all started out as teenagers just becoming their culture's version of legal adults. 0 level peons about to get rudely awakened by the Real World outside their sheltered village.
Unfortunately some of the slow build-up had to be sacrificed in the interest of getting a few sessions in before people moved away/left for college.


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## ShadowDenizen (Oct 21, 2005)

> because when a new release is scheduled I begin with book one all over again (which is badly falling apart now), and partly because I need something to read while waiting on one of several favorite authors to release something new. And then reread the current latest release through at least another two times by itself.




WOW!
I admire your decication, Roadkill.
After Book 5, I opted to stop reading the books as they come out, and decidedd that when the final book comes out, I'll try to trudge through the entire series at once. I have too many other books and DVD's to be re-reading something of that magnitude.


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## Rackhir (Oct 21, 2005)

iwatt said:
			
		

> LOL
> 
> I would have said that was a harsh judgement until after I finished book 10    . I've been rereading this series in preparation for KoD. Reading the Shadow Rising took me about a day in  a half (weekend). The Fires of Heaven one day (sick in bed). CoT..... about a month   , I kid you not.
> 
> But I'm a fan. The fact that I keep been entertained by re-reading Jordan's books (and I'm not the only one) means he's doing something right.




Well stuff does actually happen in the last 200 pages or so, though not quite as much as I'd been expecting. Personally I'm glad I read it at the book store rather than spending the money for it.


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## drothgery (Oct 21, 2005)

ShadowDenizen said:
			
		

> WOW!
> I admire your decication, Roadkill.
> After Book 5, I opted to stop reading the books as they come out, and decidedd that when the final book comes out, I'll try to trudge through the entire series at once. I have too many other books and DVD's to be re-reading something of that magnitude.




KoD's actually the only book that I didn't do a complete re-read in advance of (though I started the series about the time _Lord of Chaos_ came out), and that's mostly because I started too late (and also because I really disliked _Crossroads of Twilight_, so I didn't want it to be the last _Wheel of Time_ in my mind for very long), and was only a few hundred pages into _Lord of Chaos_ when my copy showed up. I'm still going to finish the re-read, though; I'll take another stab at KoD when I'm done (mostly to make notes for my Power Strengths page).


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## Orius (Oct 22, 2005)

Roadkill101 said:
			
		

> I almost put the first book down because it seemed to start off so slowly (when compared to faster action paced stories of the sci-fi/fantasy genre).  In hindsight as a gamer, I now really appreciate the slow start as a good example of how to build a campaign around 0 level characters.




Isn't that the truth.  In the first book, the characters pretty much run from most of the threats they face.  As you progress through the series, though they get better and better at facing threats.  You see Rand, Mat and Perrin fighting of Trollocs more often, and by Book 5, they're starting to whack Myrrdraal without breaking much of a sweat.    

You got the same thing happening with the girls, particularly when we're presented with Egwene's POV.  In the first book, she can barely sense the Source.  As the series progresses, we see her becoming more powerful and capable.


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## Aaron L (Oct 22, 2005)

aanJake said:
			
		

> Anyway... any thoughts on who killed Asmodean?




Slayer killed Asmodean.

I wish I wasnt broke!  I NEED the book.  I wish the series would keeo gong for many more books, it's almost like a comic book, and there will be another to look forward too.


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