# The alignment chart re-imagined.



## Quartz (Feb 8, 2021)

Serious stuff here, folks!


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## Mind of tempest (Feb 8, 2021)

poptarts are not a food thus they can't be a sandwich.


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## DemoMonkey (Feb 8, 2021)




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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

Quartz said:


> Serious stuff here, folks!
> 
> View attachment 132382



This chart is flawed for several reasons:

Envelopment by the bread or bread analog is not necessary for a sandwich. _See o_pen-faced sandwich.
Hinged bread qualifies as "pure" structure. _See _submarine sandwich; _see also_ Italian sausage sandwich, gyro. 
Meat, cheese, condiments are not necessary for a "pure" sandwich. _See _Ice cream sandwich. 

The above cited sandwiches are, by their very name, sandwiches and all would fit firmly in the "Lawful Good" slot. 

From these examples which are, by their very name, generally accepted as sandwiches, we can extrapolate that a sandwich is "food bounded on at least one side by bread or a bread analog.


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## jgsugden (Feb 8, 2021)

What I hate is when someone says they're a structural rebel and ingredient purist, then they start putting Gochuchang on their tunafish wrap.  Ingredient purist means you can't mix the proper ingredients for a sandwich!  Come on now!


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> Envelopment by the bread or bread analog is not necessary for a sandwich. _See o_pen-faced sandwich.




If an open-faced "sandwich" is a sandwich, so is pizza, and everyone knows pizza is a pie. Therefore an open-faced sandwich is actually a pie.


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## TheSword (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> This chart is flawed for several reasons:
> 
> Envelopment by the bread or bread analog is not necessary for a sandwich. _See o_pen-faced sandwich.
> Hinged bread qualifies as "pure" structure. _See _submarine sandwich; _see also_ Italian sausage sandwich, gyro.
> ...



Spoken like a Structure Neutral Ingredient Rebel. I refute your heresy and say only Tea Sandwiches (with crusts cut off) are true sandwiches! I’m am part of a small sect of Ingredient and Structure purists that follow a very specific code of conduct that allows no deviance. We are willing to fight for this code even to the point of seeing others kicked out of the party (Tea party)


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

Twiggly the Gnome said:


> If an open-faced "sandwich" is a sandwich, so is pizza, and everyone knows pizza is a pie. Therefore an open-faced sandwich is actually a pie.



An open-faced sandwich is a sandwich. If you go to any diner, you will find them on the menu in the chapter entitled "Sandwiches."

I have no quarrel with pizza being considered a sandwich. However, just as not all sandwiches are pizza, not all sandwiches are pie. 

A pie is a dish, often baked (but not always [_see _no-bake cheesecake]) which is usually made of a pastry dough casing containing a filling of various sweet or savory ingredients. Sweet pies may be filled with altered fruit (as in an apple pie), nuts (pecan pie), brown sugar (sugar pie) or sweetened vegetables (rhubarb pie). Savory pies may be filled with meat (as in a steak pie or a Jamaican patty), eggs and cheese (quiche) or a mixture of meat and vegetables (pot pie).

Pies may be defined by their crusts. A filled pie (also single-crust or bottom-crust), has pastry lining the baking dish, and the filling is placed on top of the pastry but left open. A top-crust pie has the filling in the bottom of the dish and is covered with a pastry or other covering before baking. This also shows that pastry is not a necessary element and that pastry analog. _See _Shepherd's pie.

A two-crust pie has the filling completely enclosed in the pastry shell. Accordingly, burritos, like pizza, are both sandwiches and pies.


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> An open-faced sandwich is a sandwich. If you go to any diner, you will find them on the menu in the chapter entitled "Sandwiches."
> 
> I have no quarrel with pizza being considered a sandwich. However, just as not all sandwiches are pizza, not all sandwiches are pie.
> 
> ...



And yes... 

Cheesecake is a pie. Specifically, it is a tart.


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## TheSword (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> And yes...
> 
> Cheesecake is a pie. Specifically, it is a tart.



I don’t think there’s a need to get personal. Cheesecake doesn’t need to confirm to your sexual mores.


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## jmartkdr2 (Feb 8, 2021)

DemoMonkey said:


> View attachment 132389



The fact that "ingredient purist" isn't "tea is made with tea leaves" makes this whole thing farcical. Farcical, I say!


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

jmartkdr2 said:


> The fact that "ingredient purist" isn't "tea is made with tea leaves" makes this whole thing farcical. Farcical, I say!



Define "tea leaves."

Does it have to be from _Camellia sinensis_? What about mint tea? Chamomile tea? Pennyroyal tea (also a solid but underrated Nirvana song)?


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## Mind of tempest (Feb 8, 2021)

jmartkdr2 said:


> The fact that "ingredient purist" isn't "tea is made with tea leaves" makes this whole thing farcical. Farcical, I say!



you are correct


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## jmartkdr2 (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> Define "tea leaves."
> 
> Does it have to be from _Camellia sinensis_? What about mint tea? Chamomile tea? Pennyroyal tea (also a solid but underrated Nirvana song)?



Leaves of the tea plant. _Camellia sinensis_

You wouldn't call any brown drink coffee just because it's brown?


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> A two-crust pie has the filling completely enclosed in the pastry shell. Accordingly, burritos, like pizza, are both sandwiches and pies.



Now that's just crazy talk!


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

jmartkdr2 said:


> Leaves of the tea plant. _Camellia sinensis_
> 
> You wouldn't call any brown drink coffee just because it's brown?



I wouldn't.

However, the McDonald's Corporation does, in fact, seem to think that its hot brown drink is coffee.

So you don't consider herbal teas to be tea?


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## jmartkdr2 (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> I wouldn't.
> 
> However, the McDonald's Corporation does, in fact, seem to think that its hot brown drink is coffee.
> 
> So you don't consider herbal teas to be tea?



Herbals teas are not tea. They are infusions. Philistines misnaming things does not change the inner truth of the true meaning of tea.

_polishes monocle._


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## Remathilis (Feb 8, 2021)

The best alignment chart I've seen (to highlight the absurdity of alignment).


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

jmartkdr2 said:


> Herbals teas are not tea. They are infusions. Philistines misnaming things does not change the inner truth of the true meaning of tea.
> 
> _polishes monocle._



You're veering dangerously close to a Rule Brittania-level of paternal colonialism there.


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## NotAYakk (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> This chart is flawed for several reasons:
> 
> Envelopment by the bread or bread analog is not necessary for a sandwich. _See o_pen-faced sandwich.
> Hinged bread qualifies as "pure" structure. _See _submarine sandwich; _see also_ Italian sausage sandwich, gyro.
> ...



Harary's law states that "any field with the name science in it is not a science".

Similarly, any food with the word sandwich in it is not a sandwich.

If it is called a 'submarine sandwich', it *claims* to be a sandwich, and the only reason it has to *claim* to be a sandwich and not (and, unlike a BLT just be one) is because it actually isn't.

This is also why it is a BLT, not a BLT sandwich.  BLT pizza, BLT salad or a BLT wrap are all valid foods, but BLT sandwich is redundant.


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## DEFCON 1 (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> The above cited sandwiches are, by their very name, sandwiches and all would fit firmly in the "Lawful Good" slot.



I would argue that the use of 'sandwich' in the name "ice cream sandwich" is more adjective than it is noun.  The word is being used to help _describe_ the object, rather than define it.

If we were to show an ice cream sandwich to someone and ask them at a base level what it was... they'd say it was ice cream.  Ice cream in a weird presentation, but ice cream nonetheless.  The 'sandwich' part is just using an analogy to help us understand what the ice cream is shaped and appears like, not that it _is_ one.   And thus it cannot be in the Lawful Good section and belongs indeed where it was placed.


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

NotAYakk said:


> Harary's law states that "any field with the name science in it is not a science".
> 
> Similarly, any food with the word sandwich in it is not a sandwich.
> 
> ...



I see your citation to "Harary's" law and rebut it with ACTUAL law. 

Under New York law, "_Sandwiches_ include cold and hot sandwiches of every kind that are prepared and ready to be eaten, whether made on bread, on bagels, on rolls, in pitas, in wraps, or otherwise, and regardless of the filling or number of layers. A sandwich can be as simple as a buttered bagel or roll, or as elaborate as a six-foot, toasted submarine sandwich." 

New York is not alone in this attitude. See California (Treasure Island Catering Co., Inc. v. State Board of Equalization 19 Cal.2d 181) (hamburgers and hot dogs are sandwiches). See also SALES AND USE TAX REGULATIONS - Article 8. 

Similarly, your attempt to analogize Harary's Law to sandwiches fails even the most cursory scrutiny. A tunafish sandwich is indisputably a sandwich, as is a peanut butter & jelly sandwich. These two elementary examples handily disprove your assertion.


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## Morrus (Feb 8, 2021)

The Earl of Sandwich was indisputably a sandwich, as he had the word sandwich in his name.


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

Morrus said:


> The Earl of Sandwich was indisputably a sandwich, as he had the word sandwich in his name.



He was also indisputably an inveterate gambler and his predilection towards card games led to his eponymous invention.


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## DemoMonkey (Feb 8, 2021)

Look, can we all AT LEAST agree that the 4th Edition of sandwiches was terrible?


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

DemoMonkey said:


> Look, can we all AT LEAST agree that the 4th Edition of sandwiches was terrible?



Sadly no.

Bring a 4th edition sandwich to a game. Half the players will complain that it's not crunchy enough. The other half will say that they want more fluff. And several will say that the sandwich wasn't properly marketed. But most will say that it's still a serviceable sandwich and better than having no sandwich at all.

Somewhere out there, there is a group of grognards happily chowing down on 4th edition hoagies.


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## TwoSix (Feb 8, 2021)

DemoMonkey said:


> Look, can we all AT LEAST agree that the 4th Edition of sandwiches was terrible?



Please.  4th edition of sandwiches were the best, they were just marketed poorly.


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Please.  4th edition of sandwiches were the best, they were just marketed poorly.



What did I JUST say?!


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## TwoSix (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> What did I JUST say?!



Hey, I'm just a grog eating my 4th edition ice cream sandwich.


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## NotAYakk (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> What did I JUST say?!



Something about gambling.


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Hey, I'm just a grog eating my 4th edition ice cream sandwich.



I applaud 4th edition for going beyond the standard grilled cheese, PB&J, cold cut hoagie, and ham & swiss archetypes. But making a teriyaki grilled chicken au jus, while it could be interesting, is just too hard to implement. Also, adding sauces to every sandwich is stupid and unwieldy. I don't want to have to memorize a list of dressings like ranch, Russian, wasabi aoili (which doesn't spell out what it is) just to order a turkey club. 

Like, why would harissa even be an option for a fried peanut butter & banana sandwich? You could put it on there but only a munchkin would.


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## Umbran (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> This chart is flawed for several reasons:
> 
> Envelopment by the bread or bread analog is not necessary for a sandwich. _See o_pen-faced sandwich.




Note, however, that the term "open faced" is always applied.  If you advertise a thing as a sandwich, and you hand the customer an open faced sandwich, they will be annoyed at you.



embee said:


> Hinged bread qualifies as "pure" structure. _See _submarine sandwich; _see also_ Italian sausage sandwich, gyro.




If gyro is a sandwich, then a taco is a sandwich, and I'm not sure that is leading to a useful definition of sandwich.



embee said:


> Meat, cheese, condiments are not necessary for a "pure" sandwich. _See _Ice cream sandwich.




Again, the term "ice cream" is, however, necessary.  If you ask your significant other, "Would you like a sandwich?" and you then hand them a Good Humor... they won't be in a good humor.



embee said:


> From these examples which are, by their very name, generally accepted as sandwiches




As I have noted, they kind of aren't.  If you _must_ add the qualifier of ingredients for acceptable presentation, then it isn't _generally_ accepted.




embee said:


> we can extrapolate that a sandwich is "food bounded on at least one side by bread or a bread analog.




So... Pizza and french onion soup are sandwiches, by that definition.  I daresay with "bounded by" you end up with "salad and a side of bread sticks" qualifies, as no salad exists in the serving beyond the bread sticks, it is technically bounded by the bread.

I suggest that you have rendered the term "sandwich" ineffective for use in language.


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## jmartkdr2 (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> You're veering dangerously close to a Rule Brittania-level of paternal colonialism there.



Listen, if you're gonna call yourself a "tea ingredient *purist*" TEA IS TEA.

Ingredient Purist Preparation Anarchist would call damp tea leaves in a salad tea, but not a gutter. (unless the gutter had tea leaves in it.)

(In real life, I don't care. But my girlfriend does and she would would call "herbal tea = tea" Ingredient Neutrality. Or would if she understood DnD memes.)


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## Mind of tempest (Feb 8, 2021)

jmartkdr2 said:


> Listen, if you're gonna call yourself a "tea ingredient *purist*" TEA IS TEA.
> 
> Ingredient Purist Preparation Anarchist would call damp tea leaves in a salad tea, but not a gutter. (unless the gutter had tea leaves in it.)
> 
> (In real life, I don't care. But my girlfriend does and she would would call "herbal tea = tea" Ingredient Neutrality. Or would if she understood DnD memes.)



man, that is wild.


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## jmartkdr2 (Feb 8, 2021)

Mind of tempest said:


> man, that is wild.



Getting too concerned with purity never goes well.

(In her defense - she actually cares about tea purity as much as I do. Good tasting tea is good tea, regardless of ingredients. She's just pedantic about it.)


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Note, however, that the term "open faced" is always applied.  If you advertise a thing as a sandwich, and you hand the customer an open faced sandwich, they will be annoyed at you.



Indeed, under the above-cited official bulletin from the New York State Department of Taxation, all are, legally speaking, sandwiches.

And if you attempt to skirt tax regulations by saying that, no, really, it only has one slice of bread and therefore isn't a sandwich, then you are quite literally fighting City Hall, which does not go well for the one fighting against City Hall.

Furthermore, the USDA's “Food Standards and Labeling Policy Book,” provides some guidance on what should and should not be considered a “sandwich” stating that “[t]ypical ‘close-faced’ sandwiches consist of two slices of bread or the top and bottom section of sliced bun that enclose meat or poultry.” It also distinguishes between closed and open-faced sandwiches, indicating that both are considered “sandwiches." The seeming limitation to meat or poultry is there to specify which types of sandwiches are within the USDA's purview, as vegetable or novelty confection sandwiches are not regulated by the USDA.



Umbran said:


> If gyro is a sandwich, then a taco is a sandwich, and I'm not sure that is leading to a useful definition of sandwich.



A gyro is indeed a sandwich. It is meat, vegetables, and sauce, in a flatbread. It is no different from a California turkey club wrap.

Inasmuch as a California turkey club wrap is "meat, vegetable, and sauce in a tortilla" and is a sandwich then a taco, which is "meat, vegetable, and sauce in a tortilla" is also a sandwich. Further, attempting to state that tacos have hard shells is an invalid defense as you would be hard-pressed to argue that taco trucks, which sell tacos of the soft variety, are not selling tacos. They are most definitely selling tacos. Yes, tacos are sandwiches.



Umbran said:


> Again, the term "ice cream" is, however, necessary.  If you ask your significant other, "Would you like a sandwich?" and you then hand them a Good Humor... they won't be in a good humor.



Only as far as specifying what type of sandwich you want. It is customary to specify what type of sandwich one wants. As anyone with a child knows, you don't ask, "do you want a sandwich?" You ask, "What kind of sandwich do you want?" And if my daughter tries saying "an ice cream sandwich," the reply is "no ice cream for lunch," as opposed to "that's not a sandwich." An ice cream sandwich is a sandwich, but it is a sweet dessert sandwich.


Umbran said:


> So... Pizza and french onion soup are sandwiches, by that definition.  I daresay with "bounded by" you end up with "salad and a side of bread sticks" qualifies, as no salad exists in the serving beyond the bread sticks, it is technically bounded by the bread.



That's not bounded. That's adjacent to. Now, were you to put a Caesar salad onto a tortilla, then yes, that would be a sandwich. Specifically, a Caesar salad wrap.


Umbran said:


> I suggest that you have rendered the term "sandwich" ineffective for use in language.




And, to further prove the point, though it may be to gild refined gold, to paint the lily, to throw a perfume on the violet, or add another hue unto the rainbow, no less an authority and legal scholar as the late Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg opined that yes, a hot dog, being a single unbroken unit of bread cradling meat and condiments (or any other filling), is a sandwich.

I, myself, am loathe to tread beyond the path blazed by Justice Ginsburg, the USDA, the California Board of Equalization, and the New York State Department of Revenue. If these authorities are willing to say that a hot dog is a sandwich *under the law, *then I say that the aforementioned chart of sandwich alignment is in error as a hot dog is a lawful good sandwich. It is a sandwich under the law and hot dogs are good.


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## Cap'n Kobold (Feb 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Note, however, that the term "open faced" is always applied.  If you advertise a thing as a sandwich, and you hand the customer an open faced sandwich, they will be annoyed at you.



 Would the sandwich then be considered both open-faced and two-faced?



jmartkdr2 said:


> Listen, if you're gonna call yourself a "tea ingredient *purist*" TEA IS TEA.
> 
> Ingredient Purist Preparation Anarchist would call damp tea leaves in a salad tea, but not a gutter. (unless the gutter had tea leaves in it.)
> 
> (In real life, I don't care. But my girlfriend does and she would would call "herbal tea = tea" Ingredient Neutrality. Or would if she understood DnD memes.)



 Would you consider the Atlantic tea?


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

Cap'n Kobold said:


> Would you consider the Atlantic tea?




No. 

I would consider the Atlantic to be a harsh mistress.


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## Charlaquin (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> This chart is flawed for several reasons:
> 
> Envelopment by the bread or bread analog is not necessary for a sandwich. _See o_pen-faced sandwich.
> Hinged bread qualifies as "pure" structure. _See _submarine sandwich; _see also_ Italian sausage sandwich, gyro.
> ...



The chart is accurate by its own definitions. The problem is that it’s lacking an axis for _linguistic_ purity. “An ice cream sandwich is a sandwich because it’s in the name. A hot dog is not a sandwich because it’s called a hot dog, not a sandwich.”

I too am a linguistic purist, ingredient and structure... radical, I guess? I think the word neutral better describes my feelings towards those axies, but by the chart I would fall into the radical category.


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## jmartkdr2 (Feb 8, 2021)

Cap'n Kobold said:


> Would the sandwich then be considered both open-faced and two-faced?
> 
> Would you consider the Atlantic tea?



 I would consider myself ingredient demi-neutral (it's got plants, but it also has animals, which is a deal-breaker) and preparation neutral (steeped, in hot or cold water, but there needs to a transfer of chemicals to the water beyond 'there's plant matter in there.)

Ergo, the Atlantic is not a tea but a gaspatcho.


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## Charlaquin (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> I see your citation to "Harary's" law and rebut it with ACTUAL law.
> 
> Under New York law, "_Sandwiches_ include cold and hot sandwiches of every kind that are prepared and ready to be eaten, whether made on bread, on bagels, on rolls, in pitas, in wraps, or otherwise, and regardless of the filling or number of layers. A sandwich can be as simple as a buttered bagel or roll, or as elaborate as a six-foot, toasted submarine sandwich."
> 
> ...



Of course, this law uses the word sandwich in its definition of sandwich, which is generally frowned upon. This definition could also be argued to include hot dogs, and yet hot dogs are often considered legally distinct from sandwiches for the purposes of such non-compete laws.


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## Charlaquin (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> He was also indisputably an inveterate gambler and his predilection towards card games led to his eponymous invention.



The notion that he was the first person to think of putting his lunch meat between two slices of bread to eat it is pretty laughable. As with most people who get credited with “inventing” a thing, he merely popularized the idea.


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

Charlaquin said:


> Of course, this law uses the word sandwich in its definition of sandwich, which is generally frowned upon. This definition could also be argued to include hot dogs, and yet hot dogs are often considered legally distinct from sandwiches for the purposes of such non-compete laws.





> *Stephen Colbert: *Is a hot dog a sandwich?
> 
> *Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg*: You’re asking me? Well, you tell me what a sandwich is and then I’ll tell you if a hot dog is a sandwich.
> 
> ...




You say a hot dog is not a sandwich. Ruth Bader Ginsburg says a hot dog is a sandwich. 

When it comes to matters of law, I am inclined to side with the esteemed Supreme Court Justice.


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## Charlaquin (Feb 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> If gyro is a sandwich, then a taco is a sandwich, and I'm not sure that is leading to a useful definition of sandwich.



Gyros is seasoned strips of lamb and beef. A “gyros sandwich” while _technically_ linguistically a sandwich, is only called that to differentiate it from a “gyros plate,” where the eponymous meat is served on a plate, usually with sides of rice, hummus, and pita, and occasionally a salad with tzatziki. So I’d consider it something of an edge case.


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## Charlaquin (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> You say a hot dog is not a sandwich. Ruth Bader Ginsburg says a hot dog is a sandwich.
> 
> When it comes to matters of law, I am inclined to side with the esteemed Supreme Court Justice.



Again, I’m saying a hot dog is not a sandwich under many states’ non-compete laws. If you want to challenge those laws in court, be my guest. Personally, I care little for any definition of sandwich that is based on structure and ingredients, and less for any definition based on US legal precedent. Sandwich is an English word, and words mean no more and no less than what they are commonly used to mean. Since no one actually calls a hot dog a sandwich outside of silly arguments on the internet, I wouldn’t include it in the category of things the word is commonly used to mean.


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## Umbran (Feb 8, 2021)

Charlaquin said:


> Gyros is seasoned strips of lamb and beef.




So, I have come to understand that's not correct.  Traditionally, gyros is made by grilling thin slices of meat stacked on a vertical spit, in much the same form as the Turkish doner kebab.  As you cut down the length of the stack, then, what results is akin to a shredded meat (as it is cut across many thin slices).  The strips of what is essentially a form of sausage are an American invention, which my Greek coworkers refuse to call _gyros_.

They still eat them.  They just refuse to call they _gyros_.


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## Umbran (Feb 8, 2021)

jmartkdr2 said:


> Ergo, the Atlantic is not a tea but a gaspatcho.




Gasptacho is a soup of pureed vegetables.  The Atlantic is not pureed, and has fish and shellfish in it.  It is therefore a cold fish soup.  Lack of dairy suggests it is _not_ a chowder.

Float a cargo ship of bread on it, and it becomes a sandwich.


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## Umbran (Feb 8, 2021)

Cap'n Kobold said:


> Would the sandwich then be considered both open-faced and two-faced?




No.  The one who wrote the menu is two-faced.  If your food has attained language skills enough to write a menu, it is no longer food, and your fridge probably need a good cleaning....


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## Umbran (Feb 8, 2021)

(And, this thread is _soooo_ not about D&D.  Moving it to Geek Talk.)


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## Umbran (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> Indeed, under the above-cited official bulletin from the New York State Department of Taxation, all are, legally speaking, sandwiches.




Governments are not culinary experts.  While they did not at one time explicitly qualify ketchup as a vegetable, they cited pickle relish and pizza that used sufficient tomato paste in its sauce as a vegetable.  Thus, legal definitions, especially those used for taxation, should be eliminated from our discussion.


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## Charlaquin (Feb 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, I have come to understand that's not correct.  Traditionally, gyros is made by grilling thin slices of meat stacked on a vertical spit, in much the same form as the Turkish doner kebab.  As you cut down the length of the stack, then, what results is akin to a shredded meat (as it is cut across many thin slices).  The strips of what is essentially a form of sausage are an American invention, which my Greek coworkers refuse to call _gyros_.
> 
> They still eat them.  They just refuse to call they _gyros_.



Oh, good to know!


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## embee (Feb 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Governments are not culinary experts.  While they did not at one time explicitly qualify ketchup as a vegetable, they cited pickle relish and pizza that used sufficient tomato paste in its sauce as a vegetable.  Thus, legal definitions, especially those used for taxation, should be eliminated from our discussion.



As I recall, that was done by Reagan's USDA, to jigger with nutritional requirements and quietly cut funding for school lunches.


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## Umbran (Feb 8, 2021)

embee said:


> As I recall, that was done by Reagan's USDA, to jigger with nutritional requirements and quietly cut funding for school lunches.




The details aside, the government's (any government's) view of food is driven by things _other than love and understanding_ of food, and should therefore be disqualified from consideration.


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## practicalm (Feb 8, 2021)

Three pages in and I didn't see this
One Cube to Rule them All


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## Mind of tempest (Feb 8, 2021)

practicalm said:


> Three pages in and I didn't see this
> One Cube to Rule them All



that makes it worse.


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## Umbran (Feb 9, 2021)

practicalm said:


> Three pages in and I didn't see this
> One Cube to Rule them All




That's... idiocy.  I'm sorry.  Key lime pie is quiche, but _if you cut it_ it becomes toast?  You have a sub, uncut, it is a taco.  But, if it is a bit overstuffed, and the thin uncut edge starts to tear, it can become a sandwich _as you eat it_?  That's nonsense.

Sushi and nigiri are listed, even though nothing breadlike is in the food?  Come on!  

And, the have a category of "toast", but then the label a dish "toast", but the dish is a sandwich?  That's just trolling.


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## Morrus (Feb 9, 2021)

embee said:


> I see your citation to "Harary's" law and rebut it with ACTUAL law.
> 
> Under New York law, "_Sandwiches_ include cold and hot sandwiches of every kind that are prepared and ready to be eaten, whether made on bread, on bagels, on rolls, in pitas, in wraps, or otherwise, and regardless of the filling or number of layers. A sandwich can be as simple as a buttered bagel or roll, or as elaborate as a six-foot, toasted submarine sandwich."
> 
> ...



I do not recognize the authority of the legislatures of New York or California to pass judgment on the definition of the British creation of John Montagu. Their opinion has no weight here.

_"In the UK ... the term sandwich ... refers usually to an item which uses sliced bread from a loaf. An item with similar fillings, but using an entire bread roll cut horizontally in half, is generally referred to as a roll, or with certain hot fillings, a burger."_

More seriously -- the Wikipedia section on the language is fascinating!




According to the story, following the Earl of Sandwich's request for beef between two slices of bread, his friends began to order "the same as Sandwich".[7] The first written usage of the English word appeared in Edward Gibbon's journal, in longhand, referring to "bits of cold meat" as a "Sandwich."[16]

Before being known as sandwiches, this food combination seems to simply have been known as "bread and meat" or "bread and cheese."[6] These two phrases are found throughout English drama from the 16th and 17th centuries.[6]

In the US, a court in Boston, Massachusetts, ruled in 2006 that a sandwich includes at least two slices of bread[1] and "under this definition, this court finds that the term 'sandwich' is not commonly understood to include burritos, tacos, and quesadillas, which are typically made with a single tortilla and stuffed with a choice filling of meat, rice, and beans."[17] The issue stemmed from the question of whether a restaurant that sold burritos could move into a shopping centre where another restaurant had a no-compete clause in its lease prohibiting other "sandwich" shops.

In Spain, where the word _sandwich_ is borrowed from the English language,[18] it refers to a food item made with English sandwich bread.[19] It is otherwise known as a _bocadillo_. Similar usage applies in other Spanish-speaking cultures, such as Mexico, where the word _torta_ is also used for a popular variety of roll-type sandwiches.

In the UK and Australia, the term _sandwich_ is more narrowly defined than in the US: it refers usually to an item which uses sliced bread from a loaf.[_citation needed_] An item with similar fillings, but using an entire bread roll cut horizontally in half, is generally referred to as a _roll_, or with certain hot fillings, a _burger_. However, hot sliced (not ground) beef between two slices of toasted bread is referred to as a _steak sandwich_: it is the sliced loaf bread that distinguishes the steak sandwich from a burger.[_citation needed_]

The verb _to sandwich_ has the meaning "to position anything between two other things of a different character, or to place different elements alternately,"[20] and the noun _sandwich_ has related meanings derived from this more general definition. For example, an ice cream sandwich consists of a layer of ice cream between two layers of cake or biscuit.[21] Similarly, Oreos and Custard Creams are described as sandwich biscuits (UK/Commonwealth) or sandwich cookies (US) because they consist of a soft filling between the baked layers.[22]

The word _butty_, originally referring to a buttered slice of bread,[23] is common in some northern parts of England as a slang synonym for "sandwich," particularly to refer to certain kinds of sandwiches including the chip butty, bacon butty, or sausage butty.[24] _Sarnie_ is a similar colloquialism.[25] Likewise, the word _sanger_ is used for sandwich in Australian slang.[26] The colloquial Scottish word _piece_ may refer either to a sandwich or to a light meal, especially one that includes a sandwich. For example, the phrase _jeely piece_ refers to a jam sandwich.[27]


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## Tonguez (Feb 13, 2021)

But what about the lettuce wrap? Is it Sandwich enough without baked goods?


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