# Would somebody explain the Deathless to me?



## SpuneDagr (Jul 8, 2004)

I really like that the elves are so different in Eberron, but there's one thing I just don't understand. What's the deal with the Deathless? They're undead animated with positive energy, but what does that really mean?
I still can't see them in my mind's eye as anything but an abomination. If they're infused with the power of life, why do their bodies still decompose?


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## Gez (Jul 8, 2004)

The deathless were a concept made for _The Book of Exalted Deeds_. The idea was to have undead that would not be your average icky evil undeadses, but something more noble. Something compatible with Gooood. Like the spectres from tha Ark of the Covenant in that Indiana Jones movie -- or the keeper of the grail from that other Indiana Jones movie. Former mortals, that rather than dead or undead, are now immortal, but have limitations like the undead often have (for example, staying in one place guarding it from tresspassers).

I don't think it really deserved to be done, since technically you could have used undead, but D&D's morality (with good cleric destroying undead and evil clerics commanding them, etc.) made it so they felt compelled to make something new rather than undead.

Same for living constructs, I would have made it just a subtype for constructs. Oh well.


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## Chroma (Jul 8, 2004)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> I really like that the elves are so different in Eberron, but there's one thing I just don't understand. What's the deal with the Deathless? They're undead animated with positive energy, but what does that really mean?
> I still can't see them in my mind's eye as anything but an abomination. If they're infused with the power of life, why do their bodies still decompose?




But with positive energy, they're not *EVIL*!  *laugh*

Really, instead of making a whole new type of creature, "Deathless" should've been an undead subtype granting the current deathless abilities to undead and stressing the positive energy over negative energy ties, I think that might have cleared things up.

They originally appear in the Book of Exalted Deeds.

/Two minutes Gez, a mere two minutes!  *laugh*


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 8, 2004)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> What's the deal with the Deathless? They're undead animated with positive energy, but what does that really mean?




Imagine a corpse that's being piloted by remote-control by a little glowing ball of positive energy.  That's deathless.  True undead are more like souls that are enslaved to the corpse by shackles of negative energy.

Hope that helps.


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## SpuneDagr (Jul 8, 2004)

Aren't living creatures just corpses controlled by positive energy?

I meant positive. oops.


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## jmucchiello (Jul 8, 2004)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> Aren't living creatures just corpses controlled by negative energy?



That's teenagers.


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## Charles Dunwoody (Jul 8, 2004)

Two main differences between deathless and undead.

First, no mindless deathless (at least so far). So a corpse isn't being desecrated and misused by necromantic magic. Strangely enough, their own clerics can boss them using turn undead, which is why I'm using the Complete Divine damage/heal undead rules instead.

Second, the deathless don't prey on the living. No ability drain or level drain.

So the deathless are elves who just don't want to die. Hang around to help their people. No sucking souls or life forces.

That being said, they are still creepy. One player's character in our Eberron campaign is cleric of the Undying Court and he just doesn't seem quite right. Likes the look of undead flesh and tattoos of skulls. As Shaggy would say, "Uber creepy."


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## SpuneDagr (Jul 8, 2004)

So basically they're an abomination that must be destroyed at all costs.

I can't believe I have such a strong opinion about this, but despite my best efforts, I can't see anything redeeming about them.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 8, 2004)

How can you save the world if you're dead? How can you lead your tribe to happiness? How can you discover the weaknesses of evil?

People die before their time...but the Deathless...they don't. The continue to exist, despite the fact that their biological functions have ceased, simply to continue on to a goal that is more valuable and noble than any one single creature's life.

Undead are made unwillingly, the negative energy feeding on the soul of the departed, forbidding them from reaching their afterlife and destroying their existence forever. Deathless willingly fall into it, simply continuing, their soul maintaining in the body by the blessing of life, not the shackles of death.

And as far as I can tell, the Risen Martyr in my campaign at the moment has painfully discovered that Deathless can still be energy drained. 

Though I agree, they should've just been undead (positive) or something.


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## Hand of Evil (Jul 8, 2004)

To me they should have been a sub-type of undead too.  Does make you wonder what would happen if positive and negative get together...I think BOOM!


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## Knight Otu (Jul 8, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> Same for living constructs, I would have made it just a subtype for constructs. Oh well.



 Ehm, Living _is _a subtype, technically available to objects and undead, too, but primarily for constructs.

 As for the Deathless - the concept behind them is one that was certainly needed. However, I'm still unsure if creating a type that is fundamentally equal to Undead was really needed. WotC could have easily created a Positive subtype that has the same effects.


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## grimslade (Jul 8, 2004)

*Deathless in Eberron*

The Deathless in Aerenal are members of the Undying Court. The plane of the Dead Dolurrh is a realm where memories are stripped from the deceased's mind until nothing is left. The elves of Aerenal want to preserve their elders and, therefore, infuse them with positive energy granting them immortality, sparing them the indignity of Dolurrh. The Undying Court is a (un-) living history of the elves spanning back almost to the days of slavery on Xen'drik. Elves can speak with ancestors that would have died generations before. 
As for the decomposing flesh, the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.
I don't think that most denizens of Eberron, except Aerenal Elves, would find the Deathless anything other than abhorrent. It looks like a lich, acts like a lich; it must be a lich. Even Valenar elves are uncomfortable with the Undying Court. The Valenar practice ancestor worship closer to Vodoun or Santeria. Ancestors as spirit guides who may possess a worthy vessel.
So the deathless are creepy but make sense in the settings context.

Grim


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## Menchi (Jul 8, 2004)

The thing is that Deathless aren't just undead. Look at the pictures that are provided in the book - they aren't rotting, decaying beings. They are mummified.

Think of deathless as anti-liches. They are self-aware and seek to do good actions. To the Elves, it isn't an abomination. The deathless are powered by the positive energy of the Light. They see themselves as the evolution of the soul.

They exist to ensure the future of their race, to combat the darkness that threatens Eberron. And to show those upstart dragons in Argonnessen that they're not the only ones who can hang around to plan out schemes over millennia. 

The flaw in thinking of them as abominations is that you end up missing out on what makes Eberron different from traditional D&D settings... nothing is as simple as black and white. The Deathless are positive, and by definition are allowed to live on to continue their noble deeds. But because they plan over staggering periods of time, they are capable of commiting seemingly evil acts because they have worked out that in the long term - say, 250 years - that evil act will bring about an even greater good.

It's this kind of realistic ambiguity that makes the whole Eberron setting appeal to me. Deathless ARE undead and they SHOULD be abominations - but they aren't. But they could be... 

Conan


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## Aaron L (Jul 8, 2004)

1st Edition mummies were animated by positive energy.   I kinda view the deathless that way.  The Areanal elves are very Egyptian in thier reverance for the dead, and the deathless are a way to preserve the dead in such a way that they can still aid thier descendants.  And remember, no matter how good, bad, or ugly you were n life, you go to Dollurh when you die.  I can easily understand wanting to continue existence as a positive energy animated corpse, rather then becoming a shade locked in eternal despair in what is essentially Greek Hades.  Given that choice, I would become a deathless too.  Probably why religion isn't all that big in Eberron either, why worship something that does absolutely nothing for you?


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## Zerovoid (Jul 8, 2004)

I think the Deathless are cool.  Ideally, they would just be normal undead, but the DnD rules are very strict that the Undead are inherintly evil no matter what.  If I got to play instead of DM, I would think about playing be an Aerenal elf with the Right of Counsel feat.

And I like how they are still icky.  The Church of the Silver Flame hunted all the lycanthropes to extinction, including the Wearbears.  In this same vein, there will be some people who hate the undead, and don't buy the elves claim that "Our undead are GOOD, just because they have POSITIVE energy."  I think that's really cool and leaves the door open for lots of interesting conflicts.


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## Gargoyle (Jul 8, 2004)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> So basically they're an abomination that must be destroyed at all costs.
> 
> I can't believe I have such a strong opinion about this, but despite my best efforts, I can't see anything redeeming about them.




Maybe that's because you're not an elf from Eberron. 

The way I see it, it is a way to make the elves feel like a completely different race, not just humans with pointy ears.  I agree with Zerovoid.  Many humans on Eberron probably feel the same way you do, but the elves obviously disagree.  I think it's cool.


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## mythago (Jul 8, 2004)

Reminds me of the zombie lawyers in Terry Pratchett's Discworld series.


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## SpuneDagr (Jul 8, 2004)

Coool concepts, yos. I'm getting a better handle on it, I think.


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## Incenjucar (Jul 9, 2004)

Zerovoid said:
			
		

> I think the Deathless are cool.  Ideally, they would just be normal undead, but the DnD rules are very strict that the Undead are inherintly evil no matter what.




Except, of course, for ghosts (any), mummies (usually lawful evil), jahi (usually lawful evil), gravecrawlers (always neutral), deathbringers (usually neutral evil), corpse gatherers (usually neutral), banshee (usually neutral evil), swordwraiths (usually lawful evil), crypt things (alwaus neutral)... and that's not even counting setting-specific undead like curst, archliches, baelnorn, etc etc etc.

But yes.  Always evil.  No matter what.  Yep.


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## Dark Psion (Jul 9, 2004)

How many existing "Undead" might be better described as "Deathless"?

The Arch-Lich and the Baelnorn Elves of Myth Drannor probably should be and there was a Radiant Spirit back in 2e Ravenloft, a ghost of a paladin trapped in Ravenloft.


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## Geoff Watson (Jul 9, 2004)

They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.   

Geoff.


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## Wormwood (Jul 9, 2004)

Geoff Watson said:
			
		

> They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.
> 
> Geoff.



None of which is true in Eberron.


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## DM_Matt (Jul 9, 2004)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> How many existing "Undead" might be better described as "Deathless"?
> 
> The Arch-Lich and the Baelnorn Elves of Myth Drannor probably should be and there was a Radiant Spirit back in 2e Ravenloft, a ghost of a paladin trapped in Ravenloft.




Yup.  The way they are used, the Deathless basically play the same role as Baelnorn do -- and since Eberron was big on integrating other wotc hardcovers, they included the Deathless mechanic.


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## Aaron L (Jul 9, 2004)

Geoff Watson said:
			
		

> They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.
> 
> Geoff.




Have you even READ the Eberron book?


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## Saeviomagy (Jul 9, 2004)

I think the big thing here is that there are some people who simply can't reconcile the concept of an undead as anything but evil. All you've got to do is post "is my skeleton animating necromancer wizard evil?" and a bunch of people jump in with how animating the dead torments their souls etc etc. and brings negative energy to the world, so it's inherently an evil act to create them, regardless of the purpose.


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## Humanophile (Jul 9, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> I think the big thing here is that there are some people who simply can't reconcile the concept of an undead as anything but evil. All you've got to do is post "is my skeleton animating necromancer wizard evil?" and a bunch of people jump in with how animating the dead torments their souls etc etc. and brings negative energy to the world, so it's inherently an evil act to create them, regardless of the purpose.




Let me take this one step more.  It might explain a lot.  (Although to be frank, I prefer the concept of undead with a mild template.  Makes for much more interesting debates.  But that aside for the moment.)

Good is often confused with Natural, especially by people who have no idea what Nature is actually like.  And while Deathless are benevolent (a statement that's a tad too pat for me), nobody in their right mind could call a deathless natural.  Druids would probably be strongly driven to "put a deathless to rest", and even most normal beings would feel uncomfortable around one.

I'm of the school of though that raising undead is inherently evil; you're drawing on an inherently evil power source, and raising a skeleton to carry your luggage is like kicking a puppy to water your lawn.  If I were to take on the idea of deathless, I'd personally do it as undead who hope that the good they can do outweighs the evil they're drawing on (and who often become tragic figures anyways).  But if you dislike that level of moral dilemma, deathless can still be kindly, while creepy as all get out at the same time.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 9, 2004)

Geoff Watson said:
			
		

> They're a dodge so Elves can have 'good' undead, like in 2e FR, while everyone else has 'evil' undead; because elves are always good, even if they are elitist genocidal racists.
> 
> Geoff.






			
				Aaron L said:
			
		

> Have you even READ the Eberron book?




I doubt it, but I assume he's read the Forgotten Realms books, where even the genocidal racist sun elves _are_ "good". I assume he's sarcastically suggesting a similar deal here. But, as everyone else has said, the deathless of the Elven courts aren't evil, they're just a little icky. WoTC's adherence to undead as mostly (not always) evil and the needing of a new type for BoED (which I thought was a bit needless then and is still needless now) for good undead is all that's at play.

That said, I like the Undying Court a lot more than the BoED deathless- in Eberron, they're more completely integrated (and they actually make elves alien, which I like) and have more interesting powers than the ghost-without-possession-or-serial-numbers that was the BoED's sacred watchers. 

Demiurge out.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 9, 2004)

Y'know, with Eberron's loose alignments, I'm not even sure that *most* undead *are* evil. I'm reading through the Karrnath section right now and though corpses litter the pages, very little is said to imply that doing so is usually evil....I mean, the Blood of Vol does it, and they are evil (or at least lead by evil), but nobody seems to regard Karrnath's use of Undead as an abomination unto Life Itself in Eberron...

So, y'know, the zombie's not really evil, either....


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## Aaron L (Jul 9, 2004)

The simple designation of negative energy as evil and positive energy as good graes on my nerves.  Why is death evil?  The Eqyptians certainly didn't think so.  The Aeranal elves keep their ancestors around by infusing them with positive energy (the energy of life!) so they their minds don't slip off to become tormented shades in Dollurh.  Undead in Eberron are quite often benevolent creatures.  A holy knight dedicating part of his afterlife to defend a city from harm is an example of a good undead.  A wise old elf staying on to give counsel to his descendants isn't evil.   

And I've never understood why animating a skeleton to carry your luggage is any more evil than animating a pile of dirt to carry your luggage.


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## Gez (Jul 9, 2004)

Aaron L said:
			
		

> And I've never understood why animating a skeleton to carry your luggage is any more evil than animating a pile of dirt to carry your luggage.




Because animating the dead torments their souls and brings negative energy to the world.


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## Bran Blackbyrd (Jul 9, 2004)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> But, as everyone else has said, the deathless of the Elven courts aren't evil, they're just a little icky.



Like the Addams family, deathless aren't evil, but they are altogether ooky.



			
				Gez said:
			
		

> Because animating the dead torments their souls and brings negative energy to the world.




Says who?  
Never mind that. A better question would be; if people create their own classes, items, worlds, gods, cosmologies, etc. then why can't undead be animated in a way that doesn't even remotely jeopardize the soul of the body's former inhabitant?

There are even T-shirts that espouse the idea that, "We are not these bodies.", but most D&D players don't seem to get that; possibly because they are too attached to pre-3E ideas. Geeks of all people should remember what Yoda said, "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
Not this crude matter indeed.
Anakin Skywalker's corpse was still ablaze when his spirit visited Luke, but you didn't hear him screaming, "It burns! It burns!".
If you kick a corpse, does some innocent schmuck on Mount Celestia feel it? If he was buried at sea, does his soul drown for eternity? If not, then why should animating his corpse with energy from the negative energy plane affect his soul? 
_Because I said so?_ _Because it's magic?_
If that's all, then make it whatever you want, there's no good reason not to.

I know creatures that feed on the flesh of the dead, sounds evil right? They're called plants. It's called fertilizer. Any druid will tell you that it's all natural. 
Maybe when an evil necromancer/cleric animates a body, he binds the tormented soul of the body's former inhabitant because it's quicker and dirtier than animating it in a more humane way, or because torturing souls is the way he gets his jollies. But that doesn't mean there isn't another way to do things.

It's perfectly reasonable to believe that once a character's soul is free of his earthly body that he is no longer bound to it in any way.

Just some thoughts... 

Call me crazy, but I find it hard to fathom that people can accept that in one campaign world there's an afterlife split up among all the outer planes (but you aren't obligated to believe in a darn thing) and in another you're forced to worship at least one deity or be tormented for eternity, but they can't imagine a world where souls aren't eternally bound to their spent carcasses.
When a child asks you whether or not an amputee gets their limb back in heaven, what do you tell them?


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## Mac Callum (Jul 9, 2004)

Deathless = Ben Kenobi in _Empire Strikes Back_ and _Return of the Jedi_; slightly more substantial.  They are benevolent counselors who tell Luke to run when he needs to be told.

Humans and Gnomes are limited to _Speak with Dead_ to chat with the grandparents, but given the effects of Dolurh that might be a chancy prosposition after enough time.  The Elves don't have this problem.

Creepy?  Sure; but not evil.  The analogy to the Knight in _Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade_ guarding the resting place of the grail is a great example.  No one doubts that his purpose was Good and Holy.  He wasn't there to feed on the living (like a Vampire) or torment them (like a Ghost).  His only purpose was to guard what needed guarding until a new guardian could be found.  He guarded the grail.  The elves guard the history and collective wisdom of the Aeranal people.  They also stay out of the way of the living most of the time, spending their time wandering the planes of existence.  Personally, I'd much rather Astrally Project myself to (the Heaven Plane, don't have my book) than spend my millenia slowly being washed away in Dolurh.

Too bad Indy guarded it for all of 10 minutes before dropping it into a bottomless pit... but that's another gripe.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Jul 9, 2004)

> Never mind that. A better question would be; if people create their own classes, items, worlds, gods, cosmologies, etc. then why can't undead be animated in a way that doesn't even remotely jeopardize the soul of the body's former inhabitant?



I think this topic has been done to death, but let's just say that D&D has ties to a lot of classic fantasy stories and literature, and mythology.

The ones D&D is based on are the "I'm evil and am summoning people's souls from their afterlives to animate their former shells and torment the living" variety rather than the "I need to lift some things, let me use that corpse over there" type.

Yes, it is POSSIBLE to turn magic into just a mundane force that can do whatever you want.  But, it loses some of the FEEL of the D&D setting.

Given, in Eberron, that is a bit different, you can cast evil spells, even if you are a good cleric.  People look at morality a lot differently.  It isn't the "standard" D&D system, which is that everything is really evil or really good.

Majoru Oakheart


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## reanjr (Jul 9, 2004)

SpuneDagr said:
			
		

> I really like that the elves are so different in Eberron, but there's one thing I just don't understand. What's the deal with the Deathless? They're undead animated with positive energy, but what does that really mean?
> I still can't see them in my mind's eye as anything but an abomination. If they're infused with the power of life, why do their bodies still decompose?




Since D&D has spent 30 years indoctrinating us with the idea that undead are evil, they had to come up with a new name for good undead.


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