# [Full - Waiting for complete characters] Loex’edar: The Dragon War



## AmorFati (Sep 19, 2005)

*[Full - Waiting for complete characters] Loex’edar: The Dragon War*

As some of you have noticed on this thread, scout989 and myself have been talking about co-DM'ing a dragon game. We've been talking and working on this for a few days now, and we are ready to go.

Loex’edar – The Dragon War

A world wrecked by war and destruction. Fire, brimstone and ash; forests, rivers, jungles, swamps... No more. Death and destruction rules this world. 

The war bewteen the good and the evil dragons had raged for aeons withot resolve. When one victory was achieved on one side, the other side achieved victory somewhere else. It was a stalemate, for sure. Then the DragonShards was discovered. There were ten of them, all together. One for each of the ten Dragons of Power; Aasterinian the Messenger, Astilabor the Hoardmistress, Bahamuth the Lord of the North Wind, Chronepsis the Silent Watcher, Falazure the Night Dragon, Garyx the Cleanser-of-Worlds, Hlal the Keeper of Tales, Lendys the Weigher of Justice, Tamara the Beneficence and Tiamat the Chromatic Dragon. Each of these Shards gave the holder great power. There was also rumours about an eleventh Shard, The Shard of Io the Great Eternal Wheel. 

Unfortunately the Evil dragons got a hold of most of the Shards, and as such began the downfall of all that was good. Corruption started to seep through the lesser dragons, and more and more of the dragonkin joined the evil in their cause of destruction. In a span of hundred of years the Good dragons were all but obliterated, and all the lesser races were either enslaved by the evil dragons or completely wiped out. Now the good dragons fight a futile struggle against the evil dragons and their hosts of followers. The odds are getting darker and darker, and the Dragons of Power seems to stay out of the struggle alltogether. Then a slight ray of hope emerges from the darkness. A never before seen wyrm calling herself Cyrem contacts the Good dragons, claiming to know how to get a hold of the DragonShards. Showing her words to be truth, she delivers to the forces of good two of the DragonShards, the shard of Astilabor and the Shard of Garyx. And so the hunt is on. The rest of the Shards will be recovered, whatever the price. The salvation lies in holding all the shards. Or so Cyrem says. There is more to Cyrem than is first apparent, but she keeps her secrets to herself - for now.

-----------------------------------------

We are now recruiting for a dragon game- in this world, nearly all creatures are dragons or draconic creatures.  Players will be dragons.  You will have the choice of any good-aligned dragon, as outlined below.  This is going to be a very strongly good vs. evil type of game, so we are restricting players to good dragons only.  As well, you have the option of how many dragon HD you have (which affects things like size, breath weapon, etc.).


Character creation rules:
•	28 pt. Buy
•	ECL for finished characters is 18, this incluce dragon HD, LA and any class levels you might have.
•	Hit Points: Max at 1st level, then half + 1 every level after.
•	Starting Wealth: 450,000 gp. Whatever you don’t use, you will loose. There are no gold coins, no shops and merchants etc in this world. Custom Magic items are fine, as long as they follow the rules in DMG for pricing, Body Slots etc. Remember, few dragons use weapons and armor!
•	Banned Stuff: Dragonslayer and Dragonstalker Prestige Classes from Draconomicon.
•	Allowed Sources: Players Handbook; Dungeon Masters Guide; Monsters Manual; Draconomicon; Complete Adventure, Warrior, Arcane, Divine.
•	Others: Templates MIGHT be accepted, but only if you have a really good reason for it in your story.

We, the DMs, reserve the right to Veto anything!
Seeing as we are 2 DMs, we will aim for a bigger party, perhaps as many as 8 players. However, the ones who expressed an interest in the other thread have all reserved a slot in here. 


*Dragons available:*

From the Monsters Manual:

Brass Dragons:  
10-12 HD: Young Dragon. Medium Size. +2 LA. +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha.
13-15 HD: Juvenile Dragon. Medium Size. +3 LA. +6 Str, +4 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +2 Cha.

Bronze Dragons:   
10-11 HD: Very Young Dragon. Medium Size. +3 LA. +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.
12-14 HD: Young Dragon. Medium Size. +4 LA. +6 Str, +4 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha.

Copper Dragons: 
10 HD: Very Young Dragon. Small Size. +1 LA. +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.
11-13 HD: Young Dragon. Medium Size. +2 LA. +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.
14-16 HD: Juvenile Dragon. Medium Size. +2 LA. +6 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.

Gold Dragons:  
10 HD: Wyrmling Dragon. Medium Size. +2 LA. +6 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.
11-13 HD: Very Young Dragon. Large Size. +3 LA. +10 Str, +6 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha.
14 HD: Young Dragon. Large Size. +4 LA. +14 Str, +6 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha.

Silver Dragons:
10-12 HD: Very Young Dragon. Medium Size. +2 LA. +4 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha.
13-15 HD: Young Dragon. Medium Size. +3 LA. +6 Str, +4 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha.

From Draconomicon:

Battle Dragons:
10 HD: Very Young Dragon. Small Size. +1 LA. +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Cha.
11-13 HD: Young Dragon. Medium Size. +2 LA. +6 Str, +6 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.
14-16 HD: Juvenile Dragon: Medium Size. +2 LA. +8 Str, +6 Con, +2 Int, +2 Wis, +4 Cha.

Radiant Dragons:
10-11 HD: Wyrmling Dragon. Medium Size. +2 LA. +6 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha.
12-14 HD: Very Young Dragon. Large Size. +3 LA. +10 Str, +2 Dex, +6 Con, +4 Int, +8 Wis, +6 Cha.

Faerie Dragons:
8 HD:  Small Size. +0 LA. +2 Str, +8 Dex, +2 Con, +4 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha.


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## Lord_Raven88 (Sep 19, 2005)

Well I'm very interested in this game, I have a few questions though.

1. Are Half Dragons allowed?
2. Can you provide some more info regarding the 3 dragons from the Draconomicon.

Thanks


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## Lord Wyrm (Sep 19, 2005)

Here's my more of my submission:

Name: Thric Martivir (No Peace)
Race: Very Young Silver Dragon
Class: Dragon 10 + 2 LA + Rogue 6

STR 14 (base 10 (2 points)+4 racial)
DEX 26 (base 16(10 points)+0 racial +6 Gloves +4 HD Based Increases)
CON 16 (base 12(4 points)+4 racial)
INT 18 (base 14(8 points)+4 racial)
WIS 16 (base 12(4 points)+4 racial)
CHA 14 (base 10(2 points)+4 racial)

HD: 10d12+6d6+48(96hp)
AC: 39 (10 base + 9 natural + 8 DEX + 8 Armor + 4 Deflection) Flat-Footed: 31 Touch: 22
BAB: +14/+9/+4  Melee: +16  Ranged: +22
Speed: 40ft, fly 150ft (poor)

Saves:
Fort +12 (+7 Racial +2 Rogue +3 Con)
Ref +20 (+7 Racial +5 Rogue +8 Dex)
Will +12 (+7 Racial +2 Rogue +3 Wis)

Attacks:
Bite +16 1d8+2
*2 Claws +11 1d6+1
*2 Wings +11 1d4+1
Short Sword +18 1d6+4 19-20/*2 Crit
Short Bow +23 1d6+1 *3 Crit 60ft Range Increment

Skills:
Bluff (19 ranks) +2 Cha = +21
Craft (Trapmaking) (6 ranks) +4 Int = +10
Disable Device (18 ranks) +4 Int = +22
Escape Artist (19 ranks) +8 Dex = +27
Jump (10 ranks free due to racial HD, I have the 3.0, this may have changed) +2 Str = +12
Knowledge (Arcana) (10 ranks) +4 Int = +14
Knowledge (Biology) (10 ranks) +4 Int = +14
Knowledge (Engineering) (13 ranks) +4 Int = +17
Knowledge (History) (10 ranks) +4 Int = +14
Knowledge (Religion) (9 ranks) +4 Int = +13
Listen (19 ranks) +3 Wis = +22
Ride (Dragon) (9 1/2 Ranks cc) +8 Dex = +17
Search (19 ranks) +4 Int = +23
Spot (19 ranks) +3 Wis = +22
Use Magic Device (18 ranks) +2 Cha = +20

Class Features/ Feats:
Sneak Attack 3d6
Trapfinding
Trapsense+1
Evasion
Uncanny Dodge
1 Hover
3 Flyby Attack
6 Adroit Flyby Attack
9 Iron Will
12 Suppress Weakness
15 Overcome Weakness

Racial Abilities:
Alternate Form 3/day
Cloudwalking
Blindsense 60ft
Darkvision 120ft
Low-Light Vision
Immunity to Acid, Cold, Magic Sleep Effects, Paralysis
Breath Weapon- 30ft cone of Cold 4d8 cold, Reflex DC18 half, 30ft cone paralysis 1d6+2 rounds, Fortitude DC18 negates

Items:
Gemstone of Fortification (heavy)
Bracers of Armor +8
Spool of Endless Rope
Mantle of Spell Resistance
+1 Medium Short Bow of Brilliant Energy
+2 Medium Short Sword
Ring of Protection +4
Ring of Invisibilty
Gloves of Dexterity +6
Eyes of Charming
Ring Gates
Decanter of Endless Water
Robe of Blending
Helm of Telepathy
Heward's Handy Haversack
Boots of Elvenkind
Murlynd's Spoon
Quiver of Ehlonna
Hand of the Mage
*2 Immovable Rods
Chime of Opening (50 Charges)
Clothing (Monk's outfit, Explorer's outfit, Scholar's outfit)
Standard Adventurer's Kit, Type 2 (Backpack, Bedroll, Winter Blanket, Bag of Caltrops, Map Case, Crowbar, Flint and Steel, Grappling Hook, Small Steel Mirror, 50' Silk Rope, Sewing Needle, Spade, Waterskin)

History: Deep in the bowels of the earth, protected from the chromatics and their kindred, Thric was born.  Inquisitive since birth he wandered away from the rest of the hatchlings in the dark recesses of the Underdark.  For many years the young silver wandered gathering treasure from the strange caches left from many years before.  The caves were wonderous and vast and Thric marveled at every building left behind by the ancient ones.  One day while exploring he came upon a strange blue stone.  Thric toyed with the stone like a child until he accidently activated it.  In an instant the lifetime of one of the ancient ones flashed through his mind.  Awaking in a cold sweat the young dragon, now in human form, scoured the ruins of the city and found many weapons.  The memories of the destruction, combined with his knowledge of the evils of the surface world hardened the young dragon.  He set out in a vengeful fit to destroy the works of the chromatic dragons.  For two years now he has hunted them, and the whispers of the human who stalks wyrms have reached the ears of many great and evil dragons who remember the destruction.


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## AmorFati (Sep 19, 2005)

Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> Here's my part of my submission:
> 
> Name: Thric Martivir (No Peace)
> Race: Very Young Silver Dragon
> ...




Looks good so far. However, dragons don't really use weapons like swords and bows. Also, We will want a good backstory, personality etc. And what about feats and skills?


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## AmorFati (Sep 19, 2005)

Lord_Raven88 said:
			
		

> Well I'm very interested in this game, I have a few questions though.
> 
> 1. Are Half Dragons allowed?
> 2. Can you provide some more info regarding the 3 dragons from the Draconomicon.
> ...




1: No, only those dragons mentioned in the first post. There might be half-dragons in the game, however not in the good side.

2: Battle dragons are what the name says; dragons who like battle. They used to serve as steeds for the more powerfull entities of the world before it was destroyed. Battle dragons are usually dull brown, but when it takes flight the sun makes it gleams like gold. Battle dragons are optimists, and often inspire others to bravery and valor. 
Special Abilities: Sonic energy breath weapon and fear gas breath weapon. Immunity to sonic damage, damage reduction 5/magic.
Spell-like abilities: 3/day Aid and Protection from Evil. 1/day Shield other.

Radiant dragons: Wonderful and terrible in their righteosness and their dedication to destroying evil. A Radiant dragon shines with a heavenly glow, but it can douse the glow if it desires. If you are able to look directly at its grandeur, you see that its perfectly shaped scales glisten like molten white gold. It has a voice like heavenly thunder. They are the best allies to creatures with nobility and justice, offering help and healing to those who need it. When faced with chaos and evil, it becomes a furious whirl of color and light, destroying all who oppose it.
Special Abilities: Ligh breath weapon and Force breath weapon. Immunity to light effects.
Spell-like abilities: At will: Daylight

Faerie Dragons: A mischevious little creature that often used to ally itself with pixied and other fey creatures. Its scales are iridescent, reflecting all the colors of the light. It has butterfly-like wings in a beautiful platinum color. It usually wears a sharp-toothed grin, except when in combat. It has a long tail that always flicker and twitches, especially when it is happy or excited. They used to live in forests, hiding from non-fey, preferring the company of creatures such as dryads. 
Special Abilities: Euphoria gas breath weapon. immunity to sleep and paralysis, spell resistance 18.
Spell-like abilities: 
At will: Dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound.
3/day: charm monster, entangle, grlitterdust, invisibility, major image, obscuring mist.
1/day: Animate object, mind fog, project image, summon natures ally IV.
1/month: Commune with nature


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## Shayuri (Sep 19, 2005)

Looks cool!

Only one thing nags at me though. Is it just me, or are those HD and ECL's from 3.0, not 3.5?

Every source I can find says a Young Gold Dragon is ECL 20, not 18. Other dragon types and ages seem similarly off.

Intentional?


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## AmorFati (Sep 19, 2005)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Looks cool!
> 
> Only one thing nags at me though. Is it just me, or are those HD and ECL's from 3.0, not 3.5?
> 
> ...




Yes, we've removed 2 LA from everything. Our reasoning is that since most of the lesser races with no LA are annihilated etc, the average powerlevel of the creatures are higher than usual.


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## scout989 (Sep 19, 2005)

That was indeed intentional- we lowered LAs for all dragons by 2.


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 20, 2005)

CHARACTER SHEET: 

```
[B]Name:[/B] Flitterdust
[B]Classes:[/B] Faerie Dragon/Favored Soul 
[B]Levels:[/B] 8/10
[B]Race:[/B] Faerie Dragon
[B]Size:[/B] Small
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] NG 
[B]Deity:[/B] Bahamut (From Complete Divine)

[B]Str:[/B] 10 +0  (8 +2 racial)      
[B]Dex:[/B] 24 +7  (14 +8 racial +2 Deep Red Ioun Stone)      
[B]Con:[/B] 16 +3  (14 +2 racial)     
[B]Int:[/B] 16 +3  (12 +4 racial)     
[B]Wis:[/B] 30 +10 (14 +6 racial +4 advancement +4 Tome of Understanding +2 Ioun Stone Incandescent Blue)     
[B]Cha:[/B] 24 +7  (14 +6 racial +4 Tome of Leadership and Influence)     

[B]CL:[/B] 18                   [B]XP:[/B] 153,000
[B]BAB:[/B] +15                 [B]HP:[/B] 165 (12+49[I][Dragon][/I]+50[I][Favored Soul][/I]+54[I][CON][/I])
[B]Grapple:[/B] +14             [B]Dmg Red:[/B] 0/
[B]Speed:[/B] 20/100(perfect)   [B]Spell Res:[/B] 18
[B]Init:[/B] +13                [B]Spell Save:[/B] 0
[B]ACP:[/B] -0                  [B]Spell Fail:[/B] n/a

          [B]Total[/B]    [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]      41      10    +8    +0    +7    +1    +4    +11 (Amulet of Natural Armor, Ioun Stone Dusty Rose, Ring of Protection)
[B]Touch:[/B]      17              
[B]Flatfooted:[/B] 34

       [B]Total[/B]   [B]Base   Mod  Misc[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]  +21      13    +3   +5 (Spinecap of Resistance)      
[B]Ref:[/B]   +25      13    +7   +5 (Spinecap of Resistance)      
[B]Will:[/B]  +28      13    +10  +5 (Spinecap of Resistance)      

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical     Special[/B]


[B]Languages:[/B] Common, Auran, Celestial, Draconic, Ignan, Sylvan 

[B]Abilities:[/B] 
Small Abilities
Immune to sleep/paralysis
Dancing Light at will
Detect Magic at will
Ghost Sound at will
Charm Monster 3/day
Entangle 3/day
Glitterdust 3/day
Invisibility 3/day
Major Image 3/day
Obscuring Mist 3/day
Animate Object 1/day
Mind Fog 1/day
Project Image 1/day
Summon Nature's Ally IV 1/day
Commune with Nature 1/month

[B]Feats:[/B] 
1:     Hover
3:     Wingover
6:     Improved Initiative
9:     Quick Reconnoiter
11 FS: Weapon Focus (Bite)
12:    Augment Healing
13 FS: Energy Resistance 10 (acid)
15:    Practised Spellcaster
18:    Negotiator
18 FS: Energy Resistance 10 (fire)

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 149       [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 21/10.5
[B]Skills                Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Bluff                  +10    +7         +17
Concentration          +20    +3         +23
Diplomacy              +20    +7   +8    +35 [Synergy:Bluff, Knowledge(Nobility), Sense Motive, Feat:Negotiator]
Heal                   +20    +10        +30
Hide                   +10    +7   +4    +21 [Small bonus]
Knowledge(Arcana)      +10    +3         +13
Knowledge(Nobility)    +9     +3         +12
Knowledge(Religion)    +10    +3         +13
Listen                 +10    +10  +2    +22 [Feat:Alertness]
Sense Motive           +20    +10  +2    +32 [Feat: Negotiator]
Spot                   +10    +10  +2    +22 [Feat:Alertness]

[B]Equipment:                               Cost[/B]
Tome of Understanding                   111,000
Tome of Leadership and Influence        111,000
Bracers of Armor +8                      64,000
Ring of Protection                       50,000
Amulet of Natural Armor                  50,000
Spinecap of Resistance                   25,000
Minor Ring of Electricity Resistance     12,000
Ioun Stone Deep Red                       8,000
Ioun Stone Incandescent Blue              8,000
Ioun Stone Dusty Rose                     5,000 
Glasses of Status 2/day [Use activated]   4,800[COLOR=Yellow]*[/COLOR]   Total: 448,800

[COLOR=Yellow]*[/COLOR] See Spoiler below for item description:
[Spoiler]Glasses of Status: [I]Custom Magic Weapon[/I]
These simple glasses look like an old set of librarian's glasses, except 
that they are made in a fashion for a draconic face.  They have a thin, 
but very flexible iron frame that supports half-circle lenses which are 
curved on the bottom and flat on the top.  When the wearer desires, the 
glasses grant the wearer an effect identical to the spell Status.  The glasses 
can be used 2 times per day.  The wearer can touch one person as a target 
and the effects last for 3 hours per use unless dismissed earlier.  
Faint Divination; CL 3rd; Craft Wonderous Item, [I]Status[/I]; Price 4,800 [/Spoiler]

[B]Casting Ability:[/B] 

Caster level: 14 (10 +4 Practiced Spellcaster Feat)
Spell DC: 20 + spell level

Spells per day: 6/9/8/8/7/5
0 - Create Water 
    Detect Poison 
    Guidance
    Light
    Mending
    Purify Food and Drink
    Read Magic
    Resistance
    Virtue

1 - Bless
    Comprehend Languages
    Cure Light Wounds
    Lesser Vigor (CD)
    Sanctuary
    Shield of Faith

2 - Bull's Strength
    Cure Moderate Wounds
    Curse of Ill Fortune (CD)
    Gentle Repose
    Silence
    Sound Burst

3 - Cure Serious Wounds
    Lesser Visage of Bahamut (CD)
    Prayer
    Resist Energy Mass(CAr)
    Vigor (CD)

4 - Cure Critical Wounds
    Discern Lies
    Recitation (CD)
    Restoration

5 - Blistering Radiance(CAd)
    Greater Vigor(CD)
    Raise Dead
```
 
CHARACTER BACKGROUND:

Flitterdust was always interested in Bahamut.  Among his clutch, his was the only egg to take on a platinum sheen.  When he used his egg tooth to break through the shell, his mother noticed that his egg tooth was platinum colored.  While the egg tooth has since fallen out long ago, Flitterdust does infact pride himself on the platinum sheen of his scales.  In spite of the majority of Faerie Dragons having platinum colored scales – Flitterdust still maintains that his are even more true to Bahamut’s own color.

Flitterdust grew up listening to his mother tell tales of dryads.  Dryads always seemed like such pleasant fey, and it was Flitterdust’s dream to meat one some day.  However, with the great war between the dragons occurring, Flitterdust realized that the chance of finding a true dryad is highly unlikely.  He always gathered that it was just an unfortunate timing for his birth.

As Flitterdust grew, he realized he began to take on several unique characteristics.  One day, Flitterdust was being chased by a ruthless juvenile black dragon.  It was supposed to be a simple information gathering mission.  But as Flitterdust crossed into the territory of this particular black dragon clan he discovered that it was a trap.  The juvenile was dispatched as a test of his hunting prowess.  As the juvenile closed the distance, it breathed out its noxious acidic breath.  Flitterdust assumed he was nearly finished, but his platinum scales held up extra well against the acid.  Sure, he was damaged, but not nearly what he assumed he would be.  Having been encouraged by the seeming supernatural ability to resist the acid, Flitterdust charged back to friendly territory and avoided several more attacks by the juvenile black.  But as he neared home, the great silver dragon who was keeping watch over the neutral territory leapt off of her perch and charged toward the juvenile.  The black didn’t see the silver coming – such was his focus upon Flitterdust.  The silver snatched the black out of the air and immediately landed.  The black dragon was crushed under the great silver’s claws.

Not all of Flitterdust's abilities deal with combat and warfare, however.  Flitterdust has always struggled with languages.  But in spite of the language dificulty, Flitterdust constantly prayed to Bahamut for blessing in this matter.  He tried hard to learn dwarven, for he loved the stories about the people who might live underground for years at a time.  But it didn't work out.  Flitterdust continued to pray to Bahamut for guidance.  The next language he tried to learn was Giant.  But again, the language got the best of him.  Flitterdust grew tired of failure and began to pray even more fervently to Bahamut.  After a year of struggling with various languages and praying every day - finally Flitterdust woke up from a dream one day with an answer from Bahamut.  It wasn't that he was unable to master the languages, he had a problem learning the different alphabets!  Immediately he fluttered to his teacher and asked if there were any languages that used the same alphabet as his beloved Draconic - the language of Bahamut's kind, after all.  The teacher smiled and began to teach Flitterdust Ignan.  Flitterdust mastered it almost instantly.  Searching for even more information, Flitterdust's teacher began to teach the faerie dragon Auran.  Flitterdust mastered that language just as quickly.  But Flitterdust had now exceeded his teacher's knowledge of languages that used the Draconic alphabet.  Flitterdust knew he could do more and so he prayed more fervantly than ever before.  Flitterdust prayed at dawn, noon, dusk, and midnight for Bahamut to grant him even just one more language.  Bahamut heard his prayers, although Flitterdust's mother swears that Bahamut only blessed Flitterdust to get him to stop pestering the Platinum Dragon with all the prayers.  One day Flitterdust awoke with the knowledge of Celestial.  Bahamut had not only granted Flitterdust another language - but there was a significance to this gift.  Bahamut had seen Flitterdust's devotion and granted him the language of the good gods.

More recently, Flitterdust has learned that his beautiful platinum scales have taken on another ability to resist energy.  Ths time, Flitterdust was supporting a flight of gold dragons making a surveillance excursion into the land of a particular red clan.  The red came out to challenge, and a battle began.  The reds surrounded the gold dragons, hitting them from every side.  The gold dragons tightened their formation – drawing the reds closer together and using their immunity to fire.  One particular red caught Flitterdust from behind and the fire beat hard against his scales.  He was singed, but not as badly as he thought he would be.  The gold dragons sprang forward with a combined force of weakening gas – and then pulverized the flight of reds.  As the gold dragons flew home, the proudly talked about their victory – and even commented on Flitterdust’s ability to resist the powerful red breath.

As Flitterdust grew in combat experience, he began to realize that Bahamut blessed him even further.  He found that by concentrating hard enough he could bring wonderous effects into existence.  He could detect poisonous areas.  He could create water, or even purify that food and water that had been reclaimed from enemy encampments.  As a support member of combat flights, he found that his presence could enhance those around him.  He began to be able to understand foreign languages if he used his new ability for magic.  However, perhaps his most blessed gift was the ability to heal and deal with fallen comrades.  He began to be able to not only preserve fallen comrades – but even recently he has received the ability to bring those fallen comrades back to life.  This blessing from Bahamut is his most treasured gift.

Flitterdust makes no attempts to fight.  He knows that his small stature has no effect upon the much larger reds, blues, or even the larger whites.  But among the flights of dragons that he is sent to accompany, he has earned the respect of many because of his ability to make them more powerful in his presence – and to even bring the fallen dragons back to friendly territory where their remains can be properly dealt with.


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## Krug (Sep 20, 2005)

I wouldn't mind playing a Faerie Dragon;maybe a druid, given the creature's propensity for nature, though a level or so of rogue is also appealing.

Kinja the faerie dragon druid saw the world wracked in pain, and knew, though small, she could play a part in turning the tide of time. One of the favoured of the Fey Queen, who loved being stroked by her soft hands, the dragon left the safe confines of his faerie home to save the world she loved, and all the animals therein, even smelly Bogtor, the dire bear.


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 20, 2005)

Anyone with the appropriate book:

Could someone put up the Faerie Dragon Skill list for the appropriate 8 HD listing?  Or ... can someone tell me from what pool the skills can be chosen for the Faerie Dragon?  Very important for my dragon's character development.  [Actually, important in deciding if I even want to be a Faerie Dragon at all! 

Edit:  I know the dragon type gets 6+INT per level, with quadruple at 1st level.  But can they chose from any skills?  I know on p. 301 of the MM it basically says when creating a monster to assign whatever skills you think it should have ... but I am curious if there is a specific set for the Faerie Dragon.

Edit #2: While someone is at it, could the saves for the 8HD Faerie Dragon be put up?

Edit #3: And ... about feats and ability score increases.  Do the ability score adjustments shown above include ability score adjustments for the levels equal to the dragon HD?  I'm thinking that they would include it for the dragon levels but not for any levels above the HD listed.  Am I correct?  And, how many feats would a Faerie Dragon (8HD) / Favored Soul (10) have?  The normal 7 for an 18th level character?

Edit #4: _{Sorry to keep adding requests}_ Does the Faerie Dragon have a Natural Armor Bonus?  _{Honestly, I'll be done pestering the DMs with questions.  But I've  got a character that is all worth it!}_


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## Shayuri (Sep 20, 2005)

Dang, it takes awhile to compile all these stats and items. 

So far I'm going with a draconic mage though...a sorceror wyrm.

Sheet posting soon.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 20, 2005)

Just checking in to say I'm here!

I'll probably be playing either a copper or a radiant. Haven't quite decided yet....


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## Guest 11456 (Sep 20, 2005)

*Zathros*
*Male Wyrmling Gold Dragon Fighter 6*
*Alignment:* Lawful Good

*Overall Length:* 18'-9"
*Body Length:* 5'-10"
*Neck Length:* 5'-8"
*Tail Length:* 7'-3"
*Body Width:* 3'-2"
*Standing Height:* 4'-5"
*Maximum Wingspan:* 30'-1"
*Minimum Wingspan:* 13'-4"
*Weight:* 301#
*Scales:* Dark yellow with golden metallic flecks
*Eyes:* Black
*Age:* 1 month

*Str:* 33 (+11) [16 points, +6 race, +4 Levels, +5 Manual]
*Dex:* 14 (+2) [6 points]
*Con:* 18 (+4) [6 points, +4 race]
*Int:* 12 (+1) [0 points, +4 race]
*Wis:* 12 (+1) [0 points, +4 race]
*Cha:* 12 (+1) [0 points, +4 race]

*Racial Abilities:* +6 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha; Base speed 60 feet, Fly 200 feet (Good), Swim 60 feet; Darkvision 60ft, Low-light Vision; Immunity to _sleep_ and paralysis effects, Immunity to Fire, Vulnerability to Cold, Alternate Form, Water Breathing; Breath Weapons: Cone of Fire (2d10) & Cone of Weakening Gas.

*Class Abilities:* Bonus Feats

*Hit Dice:* 10d12 + 6d10 + 64
*HP:* 175
*AC:* 29 (+9 Natural, +2 Dex, +8 Bracers)
*Init:* +6 (+2 Dex, +4 Feat)

*Saves*
*Fortitude:* +16 [+12 base, +4 Con]
*Reflex:* +11 [+9 base, +2 Dex]
*Will:* +10 [+9 base, +1 Wis]

*BAB:* +16
*MAB:* +32 (1d8+16/x2; Bite)
*MAB:* +32 (1d6+10/x2; 2 Claws)
*MAB:* +32 (1d4+10/x2; 2 Wings)

*Skills*
*Climb:* +17 [6 ranks, +11 Str]
*Escape Artist:* +15 [13 ranks, +2 Dex]
*Heal:* +14 [13 ranks, +1 Wis]
*Jump:* +17 [6 ranks, +11 Str]
*Listen:* +14 [13 ranks, +1 Wis]
*Search:* +14 [13 ranks, +1 Int]
*Spot:* +14 [13 ranks, +1 Wis]
*Swim:* +30 [19 ranks, +11 Str]
*Use Magical Device:* +24 [13 ranks, +1 Cha]

*Feats:*
Hover (1st Level)
Improved Maneuverability (3rd Level)
Multiattack (6th Level)
Improved Multiattack (9th Level)
Improved Maneuverability (12th Level)
Wingover (15th Level)
Power Attack (Fighter 1)
Cleave (Fighter 2)
Great Cleave (Fighter 4)
Improved Initiative (Fighter 6)

*Equipment:*
Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (150,000gp, 1#, Worn)
Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500gp, 0# Used)
Ring of Regeneration (90,000gp, 0#, Worn)
Bracers of Armor +8 (64,000gp, 1#, Worn)
Bag of Holding Type III (7,400gp, 35#, Carried)
Wand of CLW (750gp, 0#, Bag)
Potion of CMW (300gp, 0#, Bag)
Potion of CLW (50gp, 0#, Bag)
------------------------------
Total (450,000gp, 37#)

*Background:* Zathros is the third hatchling of a clutch of five gold wyrmlings. As he hatched from his egg it was immediately evident to his mother that he was somehow different from his siblings. She could sense his greater potential. But being the typical mother, she did not treat any of the five differently because of it. At only two weeks old Zathros was playing hide and seek with his siblings in their mother’s hoard chamber. Jolli was it and Zathros found what he thought was an excellent spot near the back. He slipped into what he thought was a wardrobe. In reality it was an extra-dimensional space with very odd properties. That was the last time Zathros saw any of his family again. The extra-dimensional space warped many things, not the least of which was time. While but an hour passed for the baby dragon, an unknown amount of years passed in normal space. Zathros spent the time within the space gathering items that he found there. Specifically, a strange book, an amulet, a ring, a set of bracers, a wand, two flasks, and a bag.

When he finally emerged he found the chamber had changed. It was empty save for the wardrobe. All of his mother’s treasure was gone. His mother and siblings were nowhere to be found. Several days of searching the surrounding chambers turned up nothing. Perplexed he decided that he should stay put and examine his items. He had to study the book for a week, but he felt stronger because of it. He found that he could wear the amulet, ring, and bracers. Then he placed the other items in the bag. After not hearing from any of his family for nearly two weeks he decided to venture forth in search of others…


----------



## zantriel (Sep 20, 2005)

I would like to join the game if you have a spot open. What I would like to play is a Radiant Dragon monk with the Vow of poverty out of the Book of Exalted Deeds.

Just a quick background idea.
Seeing that the twilight of the Dragons of good is upon them, young Kannois decided to walk the world. He would help when he was needed, and save those he could. He has made a vow of poverty in order to not be distracted by that which is the downfall of dragon kind. The seeking of wealth and power is what has brought this ruin, and he wants to see his last days clear from that evil taint.
But what’s this, a ray of hope has surfaced? A chance to save all that is good? The young dragon has decided to answer the call, and to fight, perhaps to even die beside those who stand against evil. (And perhaps he can convince a few to turn away from material wealth.)


----------



## Lord Wyrm (Sep 20, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> Looks good so far. However, dragons don't really use weapons like swords and bows. Also, We will want a good backstory, personality etc. And what about feats and skills?



You'll see why the bow and sword are important, it's all about polymorph self.


----------



## Jemal (Sep 20, 2005)

15 HD Silver Dragon - Darelzmyr Cierellyx, "The Great C"

Straight up Silver dragon, no class levels although I do have a request to make of the DM's... normally Silvers can learn Cleric spells and a few domain spells as Sorc. Spells.. May I substitute Druidic spells instead?
The character I'm working with is actually one I played in a long-running campaign (Started out as a Sorc/Druid before finally becoming a full blown Dragon... And then a Dragon Ascendant... And then.. the God of Silver Dragons, "The Great C/Sea/Seer".  The reason I ask for Druidic is b/c He was a very Nature oriented dragon.

The C is Great, Wise Silver Dragon who gained his nickname for several reasons.. His Initial (C), his scale colour (Resembling the calm beautiful Sea's near his lair), and his uncanny ability to 'See' things. (A major Diviner/very perceptive).


I'll Post up more soon, I'm away from my books now, and Am waiting on your DM replies to my char. Concept.  I'm thinking if it's OK with you, and since Good Dragons have been nearly wiped out that he's the Oldest, Wisest SILVER dragon left.. Not necesarily oldest/wisest of ALL, just Silver.


----------



## Jemal (Sep 20, 2005)

Oh and I'm also waiting on the answers to the Ability Score question... Are the Racial mods the ONLY stat mods we get, or do we also get the standard 1/4 HD since we're PC's?

While we're at it, one curiosity... What colour/age/size is Cyrem?


----------



## Wrahn (Sep 20, 2005)

Like to place my name in the hat, need to look to see what seems interesting

Currently looking at a Gold Dragon Warshaper


----------



## Krug (Sep 20, 2005)

Just forthe record, advancement rules for Chromatic Dragons were presented in Dragon #320, while similar rules for metallic Dragons were presented in Dragon #332.


----------



## AmorFati (Sep 20, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Anyone with the appropriate book:
> 
> Could someone put up the Faerie Dragon Skill list for the appropriate 8 HD listing?  Or ... can someone tell me from what pool the skills can be chosen for the Faerie Dragon?  Very important for my dragon's character development.  [Actually, important in deciding if I even want to be a Faerie Dragon at all!
> 
> ...





1: I'll say go with what the MM says; Choose whatever skills you want. WIll have to talk this over with Scout though, to be sure.

2: Saves for a 8HD Faerie Dragon: Fort 6, Ref 6, Will 6

3: Ability score increases are not included in the racial adjustments. 1 increase every 4th level, as usualy. Feats as usual as well, so 7 feats for a 18th level character, yes.

4: Faerie Dragon have a natural armor bonus of +4.



			
				Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Just checking in to say I'm here!
> 
> I'll probably be playing either a copper or a radiant. Haven't quite decided yet....




Great, I really like the Radiant Dragon! 




			
				Tailspinner said:
			
		

> *Zathros*
> *Male Wyrmling Gold Dragon Fighter 6*




Looks good tailspinner. But then again, so does all the characters you make 




			
				zantriel said:
			
		

> I would like to join the game if you have a spot open. What I would like to play is a Radiant Dragon monk with the Vow of poverty out of the Book of Exalted Deeds.




Sorry, scout and me talked about this, and material from Book of Exalted Deeds are not allowed.




			
				Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> You'll see why the bow and sword are important, it's all about polymorph self.




True. However, remember that all the lesser races have been obliterated a long time ago. You most likely would not know of many races to assume the form of.




			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> 15 HD Silver Dragon - Darelzmyr Cierellyx, "The Great C"
> 
> Straight up Silver dragon, no class levels although I do have a request to make of the DM's... normally Silvers can learn Cleric spells and a few domain spells as Sorc. Spells.. May I substitute Druidic spells instead?
> The character I'm working with is actually one I played in a long-running campaign (Started out as a Sorc/Druid before finally becoming a full blown Dragon... And then a Dragon Ascendant... And then.. the God of Silver Dragons, "The Great C/Sea/Seer".  The reason I ask for Druidic is b/c He was a very Nature oriented dragon.
> ...




I like the consept. Allthough, seeing as he only have 15 HD, he will not be the oldest and wisest silver dragons, I am sorry. About the spells, I'll come back to you with an answer on that one.'




			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Oh and I'm also waiting on the answers to the Ability Score question... Are the Racial mods the ONLY stat mods we get, or do we also get the standard 1/4 HD since we're PC's?
> 
> While we're at it, one curiosity... What colour/age/size is Cyrem?




Yup, ability increases as regular.

She is a Silver dragon of Huge size.




			
				Krug said:
			
		

> Just forthe record, advancement rules for Chromatic Dragons were presented in Dragon #320, while similar rules for metallic Dragons were presented in Dragon #332.




Hmmm.. I don't have access to the dragon magazines. Perhaps Scout does. Anyway, I think we'll stick with what we've come up with so far.


----------



## Krug (Sep 20, 2005)

Unfinished...


```
[B]Name:[/B] Kinja
[B]Class:[/B] Druid10
[B]Race:[/B]  Faerie Dragon
[B]Size:[/B]  Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Female
[B]Alignment:[/B] Neutral Good
[B]Deity:[/B] Faerie Queen

[B]Str:[/B] 14 (+2)      [B]Level:[/B] 10       [B]XP:[/B] 
[B]Dex:[/B] 22 (+6)      [B]BAB:[/B] +13/+8/+3  [B]HP:[/B] 8d8 +10d8 + 18 = 
[B]Con:[/B] 12 (+1)      [B]Grapple:[/B] +15    [B]Dmg Red:[/B] -/-
[B]Int:[/B] 16 (+3)      [B]Speed:[/B] 30'/Fly 100' (Perfect)/ Swim 30'     
[B]Wis:[/B] 24 (+7)      [B]Init:[/B] +6        [B]Spell Res:[/B] 18 
[B]Cha:[/B] 18 (+4)      [B]ACP:[/B] -          [B]Spell Fail:[/B] 0%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]                 +4    +0    +4    -1    +5    +0    +8    18
[B]Touch:[/B] 15              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 14

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                    9+1    +1   +5     +16
[B]Ref:[/B]                     5+3    +6   +5     +19
[B]Will:[/B]                    9+1    +7   +5     +22

[b]Armor                  Bonus   Dex   ACP   ASF  Weight    Cost[/b]

[B]
Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical   Range     Weight  Cost[/B]
Bite                    +15      1d6+2         x2        -        -       -
Claws                   +8       1d4+2         x2        -        -       -

[B]Languages:[/B] Common, Draconic, Sylvan

[B]Abilities:[/B]  Venom Immunity, Nature Sense, Wild Empathy, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step, Resist Nature's 
Lure


Special Abilities: Euphoria gas breath weapon. immunity to sleep and paralysis, spell 
resistance 18. Water Breathing, Low Light Vision

Spell-like abilities:
At will: Dancing lights, detect magic, ghost sound.
3/day: charm monster, entangle, grlitterdust, invisibility, major image, obscuring 
mist.
1/day: Animate object, mind fog, project image, summon natures ally IV.
1/month: Commune with nature

[B]Feats:[/B] 
1st level: Eschew Materials
3rd level: Natural Spell
6th level: Fast Wild Shape
9th level: Oaken Resilence


[B]Skill Points:[/B] -  42+6=48    [B]Max Ranks:[/B] 7
[B]Skills                  Abil Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Balance                   Dex  2      +4  +2     +8
Climb                     Str  2      +2  +2     +6
Craft (Bowmaking)         Int  5      +0         +5
Handle Animal             Cha  6      -1  +1     +6
Hide                      Dex  4      +4         +8
Jump                      Str  1      +2  +2     +5
Knowledge (Religion)      Int  2      +0         +2
Knowledge (Nature)        Int  5      +0         +5
Listen                    Wis  3      +1         +4
Move Silently             Dex  4      +4         +8
Ride                      Dex  1      +4         +5
Search                    Int  2      +0         +2
Spot                      Wis  2      +1         +3
Survival                  Int  6      +0  +2     +8
Swim                      Str  1      +2         +3
Use Rope                  Dex  2      +4         +6

[B]Equipment:                Cost  Weight[/B]
Gemstone of Heavy Fort.     35000gp
Ring of Protection +5       50000gp
Bracers of Armor +8         64000gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +5  50000gp
Robe of Scintillating Colors27000gp   1lb
Cloak of Resistance +5      25000gp


[B]Total Weight:[/B] 46.5lb                 [B]Money:[/B] 12pp 22gp

                           [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]       58lb 116lb 175lb 350lb 

[B]Age:[/B]  years
[B]Height:[/B] 
[B]Weight:[/B] lbs
[B]Eyes:[/B] Green
[B]Hair:[/B] Black
[B]Skin:[/B] Brown
```

*Background:* Kinja serves as an aid to Titania, the Faerie Queen, revelring her 
with tales of nature and the wonders of the natural world. An adept druid, she has been saddened by the fall of the world into devastation and ruin, particularly trees and 
nature. 

*Description:* Kinja is a beautiful faerie dragon with butterfly like wings.

*Behaviour:* Kinja enjoys the natural world around her, migrating with 
butterflies, hearing whalesong, savouring fruits and gossiping with crows. She is a 
devout believer in the natural world.


----------



## zantriel (Sep 20, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> Sorry, scout and me talked about this, and material from Book of Exalted Deeds are not allowed.




Ok, I'll try to come up with another idea.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Sep 20, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> 1: I'll say go with what the MM says; Choose whatever skills you want. WIll have to talk this over with Scout though, to be sure.
> 
> 2: Saves for a 8HD Faerie Dragon: Fort 6, Ref 6, Will 6
> 
> ...




Excellent!  That answered all my questions.  Unfortunately I have to go to work for the next 4 hours ... I know, I know - work when there is a possibility of a dragon game?  Yeah, work is this annoying thing that for some reason pops into my schedule from time to time!   But you have my word that once I put these answers into the character sheet I'll be ready to go.  I've got the character all done up - just need to do the skills (which won't take long) and then post the sheet.  I'd guess that it should be up by 3:00 EST.


----------



## AmorFati (Sep 20, 2005)

Krug: A Faerie Dragon has 8 HD, meaning you can have a max of 10 class levels. Also, the FlyBy attack, Improved Initiative and Weapon Finesse are feats gained in the Dragon HD, not bonus feats.


----------



## Shayuri (Sep 20, 2005)

And now, the young dragon sage...Shayuri! Yes it's true, this name was originally made for a dragon character (albeit she was trapped in human form ).

Hey, Mr Dragon Fighter...seeing as how we're both of similar age and color, what do you think about being clutchmates? Some kind of semi-linked background, perhaps?

*Shayuri*
*Female 10HD Wyrmling Gold Dragon* Sorceror 5, Divine Oracle 1
*Alignment:* Lawful Good

*Height*: 5’-11”
*Weight*: 190#
*Scales*: Brown-yellow with golden metallic flecks
*Eyes*: Silver
*Age*: 5 years

*Str:* 16 (+3) [2 points, +6 race]
*Dex:* 12 (+1) [4 points]
*Con:* 18 (+4) [6 points, +4 race]
*Int:* 20 (+1) [6 points, +4 race, +2 HD]
*Wis:* 16 (+1) [4 points, +4 race]
*Cha:* 26 (+1) [6 points, +4 race, +2 HD, +6 Crown]

*Racial Abilities:* +6 Str, +4 Con, +4 Int, +4 Wis, +4 Cha; Base speed 60 feet, Fly 200 feet (Average), Swim 60 feet; Darkvision 60ft, Low-light Vision; Immunity to sleep and paralysis effects, Immunity to Fire, Vulnerability to Cold, Alternate Form, Water Breathing; Breath Weapons: Cone of Fire (2d10) & Cone of Weakening Gas.

*Class Abilities:* Summon Familiar, Oracle Domain, Scry Bonus

*Hit Dice:* 10d12 + 5d4 + 1d6 + 64
*HP:* 146
*AC:* 31 (+7 Natural, +1 Dex, +8 Bracers, +5 deflection)
*Init:* +1 (+1 Dex)

*Saves*
*Fortitude:* +17 [+8 base, +4 Con, +5 resistance]
*Reflex:* +14 [+8 base, +1 Dex, +5 resistance]
*Will:* +21 [+14 base, +3 Wis, +5 resistance]

*BAB:* +12
*MAB:* +15 (1d8+4/x2; Bite)
*MAB:* +10 (1d6+3/x2; 2 Claws)
*MAB:* +10 (1d4+3/x2; 2 Wings)

*Skills*
Listen	+13 (10 ranks, +3 Wis)
Search +15 (10 ranks, +5 Int)
Spot +13 (10 ranks, +3 Wis)
Concentration +23 (19 ranks, +4 Con)
Diplomacy +22 (10 ranks, +8 Cha, +2 Sense Motive, +2 Bluff)
Intimidate +15	(5 ranks, +8 Cha, +2 Bluff)
Knowledge (Arcana) +24	(19 ranks, +5 Int)	
Knowledge (Religion) +16 (8 ranks, +5 Int, +3 Skill Focus)
Knowledge (The Planes) +10 (5 ranks, +5 Int)
Knowledge (History) +12 (7 ranks, +5 Int)	
Sense Motive +16 (13 ranks, +3 Wis)	
Use Magic Device +21 (13 ranks, +8 Cha)
Disguise +12 (3 ranks, +8 Cha, +2 Bluff)
Heal +6	(3 ranks, +3 Wis)	
Swim +18 (7 ranks, +3 Str, +8 racial)	
Bluff (Cha) +14 (6 ranks, +8 Cha)	
Spellcraft (Int) +26 (19 ranks, +5 Int, +2 Knowledge Arcana)

*Languages* - Common, Draconic, Celestial, Infernal, Ignan

*Spellcasting *(DC18+lvl)
0 - 6/6  1 - 8/8  2 - 6/6  3 - 5/5

*Spells Known*
0) Detect Magic
   Disrupt Undead
   Mage Hand
   Arcane Mark
   Prestidigitation
   Acid Splash
   Message
1) Lesser Orb of Sound
   Shield
   Ray of Enfeeblement
   Detect Secret Doors
2) See Invisible
   Invisibility
3) Protection from Energy

*Feats:*
1  Flyby Attack
3  Improved Manueverability
6  Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion)
9  Eschew Materials
12  Spell Penetration
15  Greater Spell Penetration

*Equipment:*

*Mundane*
10 map cases (10gp, 5lbs, Hold 10 loose pages apiece, in pouch, in Bag)
5oz ink	(40gp, 1oz stoppered bottles wrapped in padded cloth, in pouch, in Bag)
50 inkpens (5gp, feather quills, tied in a bundle with soft leather thong, in pouch, in Bag)	
100 loose pages (20gp, parchment, used for note, sketches, maps, in cases, in Bag)

The Great Work	(1270gp, 8lbs, bought using Spellbook rules from Complete Arcane)	
--Tome - Steel covers, with slipjacket, 100 vellum pages, Hardness 8, HP 7, Waterproof.

*Magic*
Bracers of Armor +8 (64000gp, +8 force armor)
Iron Bands of Binding (26000, ranged touch, Str or EscArt DC30 to break)
Type III Bag of Holding (7400, 35lbs - holds 1000lbs)

Shattered Crown of Kalifraxius (200000, custom item - breakdown below)
-Once known as Kalifaxius' Diamond Crown, this artifact was shattered by the deathblow of a great black wyrm, Allandriarch as it slew the noble gold patriarch, Kalifraxius. Long thought to be destroyed, the truth was that the potency of its magic transcended the battering of its physical form. In time, the enchantments found new ways to express themselves; and the Shattered Crown was born. It appears now to be a crown wrought of mithril wire...delicately and finely made, but plain for all of that. It is always found amidst a pile of dull glassy shards. When the Crown is donned, the shards light up with inner radiance and rise off the ground to orbit the wearer's head like dozens of ioun stones. The original Charisma-enhancing charm is still functional, and in addition the orbiting shards tend to block and deflect incoming attacks. Three times per day, on command, the shards can project illusory multiples of the Crown wearer. And once per day, on command, the shards align themselves to the sun so as to project a powerful beam of searing light (as Circlet of Blasting, Major).
  +5 deflection to AC (75k, inc +50% for Body Slot)
  +6 Charisma (54k, inc +50% for multiple powers)
  Mirror Image 3/day (36k, inc +100% for multiple powers, and Body Slot)
  Searing Ray (5d8 Maximized) 1/day (35k, Inc +50% for multiple powers)

Familiar Haven (12000, custom item, see below)
- The haven is a compact frame fitted between the shoulders like a backpack or over the pectorals. It is equipped with a small flap designed to be easily openable even for those lacking thumbs, from outside or inside. Within is an extra-dimensional space that's quite roomy for a small animal, equipped with feeding and watering areas, and room for any favored toys. With the flap open the familiar can stay inside indefinitely, enjoying Cover and Concealment. With the flap closed, the space stores several hours of air, protecting the familiar completely. By use of a command word, the master (or familiar, if it can speak) can whisk the familiar in or out of the pouch as a free action.
  Familiar Pocket (use-act)

Pectoral of resistance +5 (25000, +5 to all saves)
Boots of Teleportation (49000, teleport self plus 3 other Medium creatures, 3x per day)
Ring of Lore (23250k, Legend Lore & Stone Tell 1/week, detect symbols and glyphs as rogue)
Ring of Blinking (27k, use Blink on command)

Wand of Magic Missile (9th) (6750, 50/50 charges, 5 missiles)
Wand of Cure Moderate Wounds (4500, 50/50 charges, 2d8+3 healing)
Potion of Remove Disease x2 (1500)
Potion of Remove Blindness x2 (1500)
Feather Token: Tree (400gp, makes...a tree)
------------------------------

Familiar
Quoth, the RAVEN
Tiny Magical Beast (Augmented Animal)
Hit Dice: 16 (effective), 73HP
Initiative: +2 
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), fly 40 ft. (average) 
Armor Class: 17 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 15 
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/-1 
Attack: Claws +16 melee (1d2-5) 
Full Attack: Claws +16 melee (1d2-5) 
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, Alertness, Share Spells, Empathic Link, Deliver Touch,
Speak w/Master, Speak Common
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +16 
Abilities: Str 1, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 6 
Skills: Listen +3, Spot +5 
Feats: Weapon Finesse

---------------

Background :

[sblock]Shayuri ("silver eyes") was hatched in the warm sands of a magically concealed temporary lair far from the prying eyes of the chromatic dragons that were running rampant over the lands and seas of the world. Her parents were seeking a legendary lair; one long ago thought sacked by evil dragons, but which they believed might still yield secrets that could help turn the tide of the war. Shayuri was the only egg borne to the two adult gold dragons, and while they spent some time discussing whether or not to turn back to seek fosterage for their new-hatched daughter, in the end they decided the journey back would be just as dangerous for her as the road ahead...

By night, they pored over old tomes and maps, and murmured the history chants while Shayuri looked on. She was a bit small, but possessed of a quick and curious mind. From her father she learned tongues and histories, and the value of knowledge preserved. From her mother, she learned to kindle the magical spark within, though in truth it would be years yet before she put this to practical tests. From both she learned reverence for the Great Dragons, Bahamut and IO especially. It wasn't exactly what humans would call worship...more of an abiding respect for, and a dedication to the principles of. But humans were a distant memory in the earth, awkward sketches in old tomes, and what they would have thought wasn't important anymore. If it ever had been.

Finally, they came upon the dusty basin of Kalifraxius' old lair, long ago broken and looted by a flight of blue wyrms, led by a black ancient. The top levels were barren; home to a few wretched beasts eking out a miserable existance out here, far from water and food. But below, in the gallery...

The dragons had been meticulous in carting away the riches of Kalifraxius, but there were secrets to the lair still...just as they had hoped. The canny old gold had dug, by means of magic no doubt, a deep well that plunged into the very heart of the ancient volcano whose caldera the basin once had been. Down too far for any dragon who couldn't breathe water; and too close to the places where stone was still soft and red hot for any dragon who could not bear fire's touch. And there, encased in a protective membrane, was a cache of goods that had survived the looting.

Shayuri, for her part, poking around outside the well, found great bones where Kalifraxius himself once lay, and within the broken skull was a strange contraption of mithril wire shaped to look like a crown, lying atop jagged crystal shards. As her parents emerged from the well, bugling loudly in triumph, Shayuri donned the shattered crown, and its magic awoke for the first time since Kalifraxius' death.

Unfortunately, this display of power also awoke something else. The raiding dragons hadn't been stupid. They'd realized there were riches here beyond their reach. And so, anticipating the return of the golds, they had placed a fearsome sentry. A massive draconic silohouette made of magically augmented iron, snorting smoke, and rumbling mechanically as it slithered out of the shadows and came at the family of dragons! Though it was slower by far, it had the advantage of surprise and managed to grapple Shayuri's mother. As the two adult golds battled the unliving draconic golem, Shayuri's father cried out for Shay to take everything she could and fly away, back towards the setting sun.

She was the only gold dragon to rise out of Kalifraxius' lair that day.

Over the next several years, Shayuri was taken under the wings (so to speak) of the remaining gold dragons, and learned her crafts of magic. She became a frequent visitor of those wyrms who had large collections of books, asking no more than to be allowed to spend a day or a few lying quietly and reading. When the two Dragonshards changed hands, and it seemed the war; long thought doomed, might be winnable...Shayuri volunteered for the task of retrieving shards despite her tender years. She prepared a sturdy tome to chronicle the journey, so future generations could be guided by their failures and successes. This 'Great Work' would be potentially the most important work of the age, at best detailing the turning point in the great war...at worst, being the last voice of goodness and reason in a world about to go mad.[/sblock]


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 20, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> 1: No, only those dragons mentioned in the first post. There might be half-dragons in the game, however not in the good side.




No chance of trying to play someone trying to redeem or overcome his or her heritage, huh?


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 20, 2005)

Character posted here: Flitterdust

I have to admit ... I am darn proud of this one.  AC is high, saves are great, energy resistance should hopefully counteract the lower HP.  Can't attack worth a darn ... in fact it is so bad you'll notice I haven't even filled out that section yet!  But what makes me really proud is a hopefully good spell selection that will enhance the abilities of those around Flitterdust.  (Other spell choice suggestions are welcomed if anyone wants to take the time to help.  I've been thinking that with his DC he should add at least one offensive/damaging spell per level.)  But Flitterdust is a dragon who loves Bahamut first and foremost ... who can heal somewhat, buff others, cast prayer, provide food and water, and even care for lost friends in battle.  Any thoughts, mister DMs?

Also ... I still have 6,000 gold to spend.  Any ideas about an item that may only have 1 or two uses per day?  I was thinking of maybe glasses of Status (as the spell).  If useable 2 times per day, I think that would only be 4,800 ... but the DMs would need to agree that it is an appropriate body slot affinity.  Otherwise, it would cost 7,200 and exceed my allowance by 1,200.  But an item like that is what I am trying to go for.  Something like that wouldn't have combat effectiveness, but it would fit really well into Flitterdust's persona.  If anyone has ideas, please let me know.

Couple of comments, though.  You'll notice I left the following areas blank for lack of information: XP, Speed/maneuverability, and Languages.  I didn't know if we were starting with min EXP for 18th level characters.  I don't know the speed maneuverability of the faerie dragon, and I assume draconic is a given language.  But as far as other languages - given the current status of the world ... are there language restrictions that would make the world more believable?

Also, I only listed the skills in which I have ranks.  If you would like, I can give you a full list of skills.

Whew.  That rocked!  I hope this game gets up soon, I wanna try him out.


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## Wrahn (Sep 20, 2005)

Versveshedar (Stone)
Race:  Young Gold Dragon
Class: 14 Dragon/4 Level Adjust
Alignment: LG

Strength: 42 (16 Base +14 Race, +6 Enhancement, +3 HD, +3 Inherent)
Dexterity: 16 (14 Base)
Constitution: 28 (14 Base, +6 Race, +6 Enhancement, +2 Inherent)
Intelligence: 16 (10 Base, +6 Race)
Wisdom: 16 (10 Base, +6 Race)
Charisma: 16 (10 Base, +6 Race)

Abilities:
Gold Dragon:
-Size: Large
-Land Movement: 60ft
-Flight: 200 (poor)
-Swim: 60ft
-Alternate form 3/day
-Breath Water and act freely underwater
-Breath Weapon 6d10 Fire (DC 26) or 3 Strength Damage (DC 26)
-Immune to Fire
-immune to sleep and paralysis effects
-Vulnerable to Cold (See overcome weakness feat)
-Blindsense: 60ft
-Darkvision: 120ft
-Natural Armor: +13
-Natural Attacks: Bite 2d6/claws 1d8/wings 1d6/tail slap 1d8
-Space: 10ft/5 reach (10ft with bite)


HD(14d12 + 126)
HP: 229

AC 32 (10 Base, +13 Natural Armor, +8 Armor, +2 Dex, -1 Size)

BAB 14

+34 Bite (2d6 + 21)/ 2x +34 Claw (1d8 +13)/1x +29 Claw (1d8 +13) /2x +34 Wings (1d6 + 13)/ 1x Wing +29 (1d6 +13)/+34 Tail slap (1d8 +29)

Saves:
Fort: +23 (+9 Base, +9 Con, +5 Resistance)
Refl: +16 (+9 Base, +2 Dex, +5 Resistance)
Will: +19 (+9 Base, +3 Wis, +2 Feat, +5 Resistance)

Skills:

Concentrate 21 (12 Ranks +9 Con)
Diplomacy 22 (17 Ranks + 3 Cha, +2 Synergy)
Disguise 12 (9 Ranks, +3 Cha)
Intimidate 20 (17 Ranks + 3 Cha)
KS: Arcane 13 (10 Ranks + 3 Int)
KS: Nature 13 (10 Ranks +3 Int)
KS: Religion 13 (10 Ranks +3 Int)
Listen 20 (17 Ranks +3 Wis)
Search 20 (17 Ranks +3 Int)
Sense Motive 20 (17 Ranks +3 Wis)
Spot 20 (17 Ranks +3 Wis)

Spells:

5/4

0. Read Magic, Detect Magic, Prestidigitation, Mage Hand
1. Cure Light Wounds, Protection from Evil

Feats:
1) Iron Will
3) Multiattack
6) Improved Multiattack
9) Suppress Weakness
12) Rapidstrike

Items:
Parental Horde:  Though he had never met his parents, he was left quite a few items from their horde in the secret room which he was hidden.  Though he was forced to abandon the coins and library, he did come away with several powerful items:
25,000 Frill Stud of Resistance +5 (cloak)
150,000 Amulet of Mighty Fists +5
82,500 Book of Strength +3 (used)
55,000 Book of Constitution +2 (used)
36,000 Hip Bands of Health (+6 Enhancement bonus to Con)
36,000 Gauntlets of Might +6
64,000 Bracers of Armor +8






History:

[sblock]Arjin climbed the narrow stairs, carrying the lantern that only illuminated a small distance before one of the many twists and turns blocked the light.  Finally he approached the surface and he hooded the lantern and hung it from a hook in the wall.

The cold was bone chilling, but up here in the northlands, no respectable dragon made its home.  Well none except the White’s and they weren’t all that bright.  The full moon illuminated the tundra, but even then he did not immediate see the dragon until he turned his long neck to look back at him.

The people of the village called him the White Gold, because of his tendency to  cover himself in snow for better concealment, but his name was Versveshedar and he had come to be their guardian and Arjin’s friend.

“There hasn’t been a dragon out there for months.  I doubt very much one is going to wander by this evening.  Even if it did, I doubt that it will investigate a shallow ice cave.”

Versveshedar, or Vers as Arjin called him (to his great annoyance) blinked at him, “We can’t afford to not be vigilant.”

“You worry too much, Vers.”

Vers looked back over the frozen wasteland, “Better to worry too much, than too little.”

Arjin raised an eyebrow, he hadn’t even scolded him for not using his full name, “What is it?  You have been acting all broody and melancholy since you got that message, not that broody and melancholy are unusually for you, but you seem to be taking extra effort in it.”

A snort escaped from the dragon, “Broody and melancholy I guess I am.  I am worried about our little village here, I feel I have a responsibility.”

“Lad, we have been round and round at this.  We aren’t in any dragon’s territory, we are well hidden, Pelor looks after our needs, still granting me spells after all these years to provide food and water for them.  We know how to run if some dragon comes sniffing about.  We have been here six months, I think we can stay  a tad bit longer while you go see if the Cyrem girl is on the up and up.”

Arjin grinned, “Besides, we handled ourselves before you came along.”

The dragon did not respond, he just kept looking out into the waste.

The old cleric began to grow concerned, “Really… what’s bothering you?”

He turned his head back to look at the old man, then looked away, “I have never really met a dragon that was not trying to kill me, or me him.” his majestic voice almost sounded sheepish.

Arjin was taken aback, his friend never had spoken about his past, “What about your parents Lad, siblings or the like?  Surely you have had at least those.”

He looked back out to the snow covered land, “I broke free from my shell in a hidden chamber in what I can only assume had been my parents lair.  There were many tomes and other treasures there, but no sign of my parents.  I was very confused until I started reading the books, one was a history.”

“I concluded that my parents had been killed and in an effort to save me, had hidden me in the secret room.  I was safe for a while, then other dragons came, intent on making my parents lair their own.  When they discovered me, I took what I could and fled.”

“From then on, I have done nothing but fight and flee from other dragons, I was beginning to believe that I was the last of my kind.  Then I received the message from Cyrem and now I don’t know what to think.”

The dragon remained quiet for a while and Arjin didn’t want to interrupt his contemplative mood, he sensed there was more to this.

“I suppose that is not all,” the dragons turned to meet the human in the eye, “I have been with you all for three years now, we have been brave and as lucky as we could have reasonably hoped, but we still lose people.  There are so few children and they are so fragile.”

“I guess what I am saying is this is the only good thing I have ever known, and while I struggle my best to keep you all safe, I know it is a losing battle.  Even here, sooner or later something is going to come sniffing around and you all will have to flee and we will continue to lose people.”

“This is a world without hope.”  Vers turned away.

Arjin spoke quietly, “Or at least it was until Cyrem sent you that message.  It is easy to accept the lot in life we are given and harder than the black abyss to open ourselves to the pain of shattered hope again.”

“I still think there is a very good chance this is a trick, a trap of some nature.” Vers said not looking back

“I agree you need to be very cautious, but I think you also know that dying trying to fix what is wrong is better than enduring it and dying by degrees every day, till finally, in despair you chose to stand and fight when you know you should flee.”

Versveshedar looked at his friend for a long moment, weighing his words, then his form shifted into a young human male, “All right, I suppose I can come in, I can’t brood very well with you nagging me anyway.”

Arjin smiled, putting his hand on his shoulder, “I will pray to Pelor your message was legitimate, I have a feeling all our lives depend on it.”

“Then let us hope Pelor answers your prays better than he does when you pray for food…” Their banter faded rapidly as the descended the hidden stairs. [/sblock]


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## zantriel (Sep 21, 2005)

Will you allow the Healer class out of the Miniatures Handbook? I am not 100% sure as to what I wish to play but that is one of the classes I like to play. Also how about a psionic character? Sorry we have most of the bases covered so I am trying not to copy anyone.


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## scout989 (Sep 21, 2005)

Wrahn- your entry, though a very fun concept, is not executed properly.  Specifically, the Warshaper class abilities only apply when the character is in a form different from their natural shape- you're applying them to his character's dragon body.  If you want to fix that, I'd love to see what you have in mind for Aerstrix.

Nonlethal Force- I'm so glad you entered this campaign- Flitterdust looks to be a ton of fun.  Congrats on a great piece of writing


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## scout989 (Sep 21, 2005)

Sorry, Zantriel, but I believe AmorFati and I both agree that the list of allowed material at the top of the page is pretty much it.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 21, 2005)

*Luminous (Radiant Dragon Paladin)*

Character in Rogue Gallery here.


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## zantriel (Sep 21, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Sorry, Zantriel, but I believe AmorFati and I both agree that the list of allowed material at the top of the page is pretty much it.



Ok, no problem, just trying to think of something different. Well back to the drawing board, lol.


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 21, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Nonlethal Force- I'm so glad you entered this campaign- Flitterdust looks to be a ton of fun.  Congrats on a great piece of writing




Thanks.  He was fun to come up with.  I'm still not sure about the magical items.  I'm especially dissatisfied with the cloak of resistance.  I want the magical resistance, but the thought of a dragon flying around with a cape is less than ideal.  I noticed one of the other submissions had a "pectoral of resistance."  I was wondering if instead of a cloak it could be more like a harness.  I could see flitterdust flying around with a leather harness (that provides no AC bonus, of course) but had the same properties/body slot as a cloak of resistance.

I don't have any problem with the rings/bracers/bracelets, because dragons are known for their affinity for jewelry and I could see a dragon wearing a ring or bracelet.  But the cloak thing just bothers me.  Any reason it couldn't be more like a leather harness that provides no additional abilities besides the resistance?

...

Zantriel, I notice that nobody has gone the route of raging yet if you are looking for an uncovered angle.  Of course there is nothing wrong with going a straight up big boy that holds his own on the battlefield, either!  I have a feeling that combat will be fast and furious in this game, and we may need more than just one big boy.  (Or big girl!)


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## scout989 (Sep 21, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Thanks.  He was fun to come up with.  I'm still not sure about the magical items.  I'm especially dissatisfied with the cloak of resistance.  I want the magical resistance, but the thought of a dragon flying around with a cape is less than ideal.  I noticed one of the other submissions had a "pectoral of resistance."  I was wondering if instead of a cloak it could be more like a harness.  I could see flitterdust flying around with a leather harness (that provides no AC bonus, of course) but had the same properties/body slot as a cloak of resistance.
> 
> I don't have any problem with the rings/bracers/bracelets, because dragons are known for their affinity for jewelry and I could see a dragon wearing a ring or bracelet.  But the cloak thing just bothers me.  Any reason it couldn't be more like a leather harness that provides no additional abilities besides the resistance?




One option mentioned in the Draconomicon is that of frill caps and spine caps- essentially, I imagine those as decorative cloth or leather sheathes for a dragon's frill, that can incidentally be magically imbued.


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## zantriel (Sep 21, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Zantriel, I notice that nobody has gone the route of raging yet if you are looking for an uncovered angle.  Of course there is nothing wrong with going a straight up big boy that holds his own on the battlefield, either!  I have a feeling that combat will be fast and furious in this game, and we may need more than just one big boy.  (Or big girl!)



Fallenangel is going Paladin so we have a warrior, though we don’t have a full fighter type so I might do that. Still need to think about it though. I kind of feel like I’m being a pain here, not trying to though.


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## scout989 (Sep 21, 2005)

Well, Zantriel, it looks like there *may* be as many as 8-10 players in this game, so a bit of overlap is to be expected.  If you want to go for something different than what's been done here, why not try the alternate base classes given in the Complete series (if you have access)?


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 21, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> One option mentioned in the Draconomicon is that of frill caps and spine caps- essentially, I imagine those as decorative cloth or leather sheathes for a dragon's frill, that can incidentally be magically imbued.




Nice.  That's pretty much what I wanted.  Thanks!  I'll edit the character sheet to reflect a spine cap.

And Zantriel - with as many clerical/arcane spells that there are out there ... I am sure you could do the same class but use a different selection.  With Flitterdust being a Favored Soul, his spell list is far from comprehensive.  He does have the heal spells ... but I gotta admit - if there are going to be as many as 8 - 10 dragons in the party ... Flitterdust is gonna need some serious healing help!  Probably not much need for raise dead or anything though ... if Flitterdust needs more than one of those a day things won't be going too well.  But an all out healer or a healer/buffer would be welcome if our party is going to be that large.  Or - a healer who is not afraid to mix it up with the fighter types (more of a secondary fighter) would definately be a different concept than Flitterdust.

I guess what I am saying is that with a large party, the more healers the merrier!  Flitterdust won't be able to handle it all by himself.  I think we do have a paladin and a druid dragon concept ... but even with them I think more healing help could be certainly welcome.  Besides, the more people that can heal themselves ... the more Flitterdust can focus on buffing others.


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## zantriel (Sep 21, 2005)

Don’t mind me guys, I have been sick the past few days and I’m not thinking all too clearly. Also I am trying to find something that I haven’t played to death, which is hard to do when you have been gaming since the early 80’s, lol. Then it dawned on me, I can aim for for a Prestige class. So that’s what I am looking into right now, I have a few ideas now, thanks.


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## Lord Wyrm (Sep 21, 2005)

I need to see about a custom item, it is for story purposes so I have not included a gp value:

Sensate Stone: This incandescent blue orb measures about six inches across and glows faintly with magical energy.  When first used a stone such as this copies and stores the memories of the intial user, usually for study later on by sensates.  After the intial use any being may access may access the memories contained by grasping the orb and concentrating.  This particular stone has the memories of a munthrekvirlym (human theif).  Thric would of accessed this and the memories contained here-in gaining significant knowledge of ancient history and ancient biology(represented by his ranks in the subjects) in addition to learning to ply the trades of the rogue.

This item is for the current background I have devised for Thric.  I want a ruling on this item before I post the background.


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## Shayuri (Sep 21, 2005)

Just posting to note that I added the background to my sheet on the first page. It's in Sblocks. Lemme know whatcha think!


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## AmorFati (Sep 21, 2005)

OK! We've closed recruitment for now. We will both be going over the characters the next days. For those of you who still havn't finished, tell us when you have, and we will look it over!

Status:

Accepted:
LogicsFate - Playing Unknown - Awaiting Character.
Goddess FallenAngel - Luminous, Radiant Dragon Paladin - Awaiting background, personality etc.
Nonlethal Force - Flitterdust, Faerie Dragon Favored Soul - Awaiting a few nit-picks.
Jemal - The Great C, Silver Dragon - Awaiting character sheet.
Shayuri - Shayuri , Gold Dragon Divine Oracle

Under consideration:
Lord Wyrm - Thric Martivir, Silver Dragon Rogue - Awaiting background and personality etc.
Krug - Kinja, Faerie Dragon Druid
Tailspinner - Zathros, Wyrmling Gold Dragon Fighter
Wrahn - Un-named, Gold Dragon - Awaiting background, personality etc.
Zantriel - Unknown as of yet - Awaiting character.





			
				Krug said:
			
		

> *Background:* Kinja serves as an aid to Titania, the Faerie Queen, revelring her
> with tales of nature and the wonders of the natural world. An adept druid, she has been saddened by the fall of the world into devastation and ruin, particularly trees and
> nature.
> 
> ...





I like her, however I am not sure how we'll handle things like the Faerie Queen yet.
Also, you DO recieve feats from the Dragon HD, so you should have 7 feats in total. Earlier you had 7 feats, pluss the 3 feats that are listed in the Faerie Dragon entry. Those are the feats it gets from its HD, but you are free to choose any feats you want.




			
				Shayuri said:
			
		

> And now, the young dragon sage...Shayuri! Yes it's true, this name was originally made for a dragon character (albeit she was trapped in human form ).
> 
> Hey, Mr Dragon Fighter...seeing as how we're both of similar age and color, what do you think about being clutchmates? Some kind of semi-linked background, perhaps?




I like what I see! Also, a linked background would be GREAT! 




			
				Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Character posted here: Flitterdust
> 
> I have to admit ... I am darn proud of this one.  AC is high, saves are great, energy resistance should hopefully counteract the lower HP.  Can't attack worth a darn ... in fact it is so bad you'll notice I haven't even filled out that section yet!  But what makes me really proud is a hopefully good spell selection that will enhance the abilities of those around Flitterdust.  (Other spell choice suggestions are welcomed if anyone wants to take the time to help.  I've been thinking that with his DC he should add at least one offensive/damaging spell per level.)  But Flitterdust is a dragon who loves Bahamut first and foremost ... who can heal somewhat, buff others, cast prayer, provide food and water, and even care for lost friends in battle.  Any thoughts, mister DMs?
> 
> ...





I SO like Flitterdust! Will look her over more closely later. The consept you are talking about for her sounds great, A buffer and a helper. Fits perfectly!
As for the glasses, that would be the Eye slots with affinity for things with Vision. I will rule that a x/day use of Status fits the slot! 
XP: Enough for 18th level characters. Nothing more, nothing less.
Speed and maneuverability: 100 ft (perfect)
Languages: Draconic is a given, yes. So is Sylvan. They can also converse with any animals. As for the other languages... I think most are good to go, but it would be a goode idea to include why you'd known languages that are close to extinct, like dwarven, orc, etc etc.
Oh, and only listing the skills with ranks shold be fine. 




			
				Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Draft character... not done yet (need to choose feats/skills/Equipment and add the history/appearance section). Anyway, let me know if there looks to be anything wrong with the base mechanics.




Oh, a paladin! cool! I can't wait to see the finished piece! 




			
				Lord Wyrm said:
			
		

> I need to see about a custom item, it is for story purposes so I have not included a gp value:
> 
> Sensate Stone: This incandescent blue orb measures about six inches across and glows faintly with magical energy.  When first used a stone such as this copies and stores the memories of the intial user, usually for study later on by sensates.  After the intial use any being may access may access the memories contained by grasping the orb and concentrating.  This particular stone has the memories of a munthrekvirlym (human theif).  Thric would of accessed this and the memories contained here-in gaining significant knowledge of ancient history and ancient biology(represented by his ranks in the subjects) in addition to learning to ply the trades of the rogue.
> 
> This item is for the current background I have devised for Thric.  I want a ruling on this item before I post the background.




To be able to make a ruling about this, _what_ exatly do you want this item to do?


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 21, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> Oh, a paladin! cool! I can't wait to see the finished piece!




This is going to be a series of firsts for me. Playing a Dragon, playing a Lawful alignment, and playing a Paladin...    

But I have a character concept, and that makes everything alright.   

Working on character history now....


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## LogicsFate (Sep 21, 2005)

Please excuse my tardiness, today ended the worst week I've had in years, I'll have a character concept up soon, and a character sheet after that(Now that everything is cool)


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## zantriel (Sep 22, 2005)

I will work on the character over the next few days, unfortunately I work third shift, 12 hours each night for the next 3 nights. I will work on it when I can, I am down to 2 ideas, I will decide on which tonight.


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 22, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> Nonlethal Force - Flitterdust, Faerie Dragon Favored Soul - Awaiting a few nit-picks.
> 
> I SO like Flitterdust! Will look her over more closely later. The consept you are talking about for her sounds great, A buffer and a helper. Fits perfectly!
> As for the glasses, that would be the Eye slots with affinity for things with Vision. I will rule that a x/day use of Status fits the slot!
> ...




You call those nit-picks?   I'll take those nit-picks all day long!  I do appreciate the answers, though.  

1.  By my calculations the glasses of status with be 4,8000 and a 2/day use-activated magical item.  Status spell level is 2, Caster level for this item is 3.  That means the item will grant to Flitterdust the spell Status for 1 creature touched and the spell duration will be 3 hours.  Of course, a WILL save negates, but considering it is a friendly spell I don't think saving throws will be a big deal, anyway.  But maybe it will be.  I'll update the items list and that will do it for me.  I'll be surrendering 1,200 gold.  Not to bad considering what we had to start with!

2.  XP will be set to 153,000.

3.  I will add sylvan to the languages.  As for the 3 granted by INT score, I'll take Celestial, Ignan, and Auran.  Explanation will appear in character background.

4.  Speed will be added.

If you need anything else, let me know!

EDIT: Corrections completed, background updated to explain language choice.



			
				Goddess Fallenangel said:
			
		

> This is going to be a series of firsts for me. Playing a Dragon, playing a Lawful alignment, and playing a Paladin...




Be careful ... LG good alignments can be addictive.    I used to always play CG for almost every character.  But one day I tried a LG paladin.  I was addicted.  Ever since, the LG and CG in me combine so that I honestly think I do NG best.  Sometimes chaotic, sometimes lawful - but usually balanced between the two.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 22, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Be careful ... LG good alignments can be addictive.    I used to always play CG for almost every character.  But one day I tried a LG paladin.  I was addicted.  Ever since, the LG and CG in me combine so that I honestly think I do NG best.  Sometimes chaotic, sometimes lawful - but usually balanced between the two.




I usually play N or CN, so this might be a bit of a change.  I did play a LN monk once before and liked it, but got into a really bad OOC argument with one of the other players over my character's alignment (even though the DM thought I was doing it fine, this person didn't) and I haven't played a Lawful since. 

But, I don't expect that to happen here.


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## zantriel (Sep 22, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> I usually play N or CN, so this might be a bit of a change.  I did play a LN monk once before and liked it, but got into a really bad OOC argument with one of the other players over my character's alignment (even though the DM thought I was doing it fine, this person didn't) and I haven't played a Lawful since.
> 
> But, I don't expect that to happen here.



Yes but he was an idiot, so no worries there.


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 22, 2005)

I just want to add that I will be away from my computer Sept 26 though about evening of Sept 28.  Since Flitterdust seems to be pretty close to being finished, I hope this won't be too much of a problem - but I at least wanted you to know in case you wonder why I disappeared for a few days.


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## scout989 (Sep 22, 2005)

Nonlethat Force- I just realized, looking over your character sheet, that you can choose one more feat:  Flitterdust has perfect maneuverability, which means that the Hover feat is completely useless for him (perfect maneuverability allows one to hover without the feat).  Go ahead and change that out, when you get a chance.


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## Wrahn (Sep 22, 2005)

Sorry, been a hectic few days.  You are absolutely correct and (again) it serves me right taking things from memory.  Warshaper is still a cool class, but less than what I thought and immediately clashed with the background I was developing.  The character I have up is what I will probably play (it was essentially a what if playing around, it is someplace to start)

A few questions:

We get the full 7 feats even if our HD does not reach 18?

What do you think of the Leadership feat?

Is it an oversight making the minimum HD for say the copper dragon 10 or is there a specific reason you don't want us to play wyrmlings or the like?


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## AmorFati (Sep 22, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Sorry, been a hectic few days.  You are absolutely correct and (again) it serves me right taking things from memory.  Warshaper is still a cool class, but less than what I thought and immediately clashed with the background I was developing.  The character I have up is what I will probably play (it was essentially a what if playing around, it is someplace to start)
> 
> A few questions:
> 
> ...




No damage done; I like the Warshaper myself, but it's hard to get to work in this consept I think.

No, you get feats like usual, at 1HD, 3HD, 6HD etc etc. So at level 14, you'll get 5 feats.

I'll have to say No to the leadership, sorry.

As for the minimum of 10 HD, we talked about it and decided to set a minimum of 10 dragon HD, regardless of age etc. Mainly because this is a draconic campaign, and we felt that if we did not set a minimum of draconic HD, we'd end up with characters with the bare minimum of HD and "lots" of class levels. We didn't want that.


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## Lord Wyrm (Sep 22, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> To be able to make a ruling about this, _what_ exatly do you want this item to do?




The item will basically be a magical journal for a human from the distant past.  It recorded his life experiences and Thric now uses them as a training manuel and as a reference when researching ancient past events or creatures.  (This gives him no in game effects like bonuses on skills but does allow him to add ranks to his relevant knowledges when leeling.  Also explains his knowledge of swords bows and how to shapeshift into a human)


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 22, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Nonlethat Force- I just realized, looking over your character sheet, that you can choose one more feat:  Flitterdust has perfect maneuverability, which means that the Hover feat is completely useless for him (perfect maneuverability allows one to hover without the feat).  Go ahead and change that out, when you get a chance.




Oh, thanks.  I had the sheet posted before I knew the speed/maneuverability and never thought to go back an change it.  I'll just swap out Hover and insert Alertness for the bonus to Spot and Listen checks.

Edit:  In doing so, I realized my character sheet had a typo on it.  I meant to have my ranks in Spot instead of Spellcraft.  (Easy typo since one is right above the other on the old character sheet)  So, I changed it if it is no big deal.  If it is, then I'll change it back no problem.


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## Jemal (Sep 22, 2005)

> I like the consept. Allthough, seeing as he only have 15 HD, he will not be the oldest and wisest silver dragons, I am sorry. About the spells, I'll come back to you with an answer on that one.'
> 
> Cyrem is a Silver dragon of Huge size.




Hmm.. damn, didn't think so, when i got home I realized even If I'm the Oldest of the Pcs I'ld stlil be only like 25.    OK, Then I'm the C in training.  
Hmm.. Cyrem is a huge silver you say?.... hmm... Role Model!!

Anyways, didn't get much time to work on my char, but I finally picked up my D&D books from my buddy's house, including Draconomicon, so I'll be workin on the C Offline, and post up the "First Draft" for your approval tommorow afternoon.
since my castre level is only 1 right now, there's not really a rush on the druid vs cleric spell thing.


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## Jemal (Sep 22, 2005)

btw just a short little rant.. Does it bothre anyone else that a gold dragonis always better than the others?  I knowthey're the 'most powerful' but at equal ECL they ravage everythinge else.. *sigh*  I'm just mumbling cuz my beloved silvers get less than HALF the str. mod and a Lower con mod, are smaller, an all for a +1 LA.
n/m my rambling.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 23, 2005)

Jemal said:
			
		

> btw just a short little rant.. Does it bothre anyone else that a gold dragonis always better than the others?  I knowthey're the 'most powerful' but at equal ECL they ravage everythinge else.. *sigh*  I'm just mumbling cuz my beloved silvers get less than HALF the str. mod and a Lower con mod, are smaller, an all for a +1 LA.
> n/m my rambling.




Actually, it's always bothered me.  

For instance, Red dragons are supposed to be the equal of golds on the chromatic side (top of the food chain, etc). They are actually a little less powerful than silvers, for about the same ECL.

Nope, never got it.

'Course, I'm just mumbling because the red dragon wyrmling I'm playing in a different game is less powerful than most silvers for the same ECL.


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## Shayuri (Sep 23, 2005)

I suspect it's similar to the reason why high-end celestials will, generally speaking, romp all over the balor and pit fiend. 

Demons and devils (and chromatic dragons) are opponents that the PC's will be fighting in a "normal" game of D&D. They're powerful and tuff, but ultimately designed to be defeated. Metallic dragons and high-end angels are NOT designed to be defeated. They're designed to be high-level patrons and deus ex machini....and to that end, they must be able to impress a high level party with how truly, obnoxiously paarful they are, as well as romp all over a roomful of baddies when the DM deems the PC's need a helping hand.

That's my guess anyway.


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## scout989 (Sep 23, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Oh, thanks.  I had the sheet posted before I knew the speed/maneuverability and never thought to go back an change it.  I'll just swap out Hover and insert Alertness for the bonus to Spot and Listen checks.
> 
> Edit:  In doing so, I realized my character sheet had a typo on it.  I meant to have my ranks in Spot instead of Spellcraft.  (Easy typo since one is right above the other on the old character sheet)  So, I changed it if it is no big deal.  If it is, then I'll change it back no problem.



There's no problem with that- we're still definitely in the "tweaking" stage here


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## zantriel (Sep 23, 2005)

I would like to play a Faerie Dragon Sorcerer/Effigy Master from the Complete Arcane.

The background idea:
Young Lightfoot, saddened by the death of his friends from the forest he grew up in, decided to create new friends of his own. Already a Sorcerer of some ability, he tracked down the lost art of Effigy creation. Once mastered, he then created replacements for those who died.

Just a rough background idea and I still also need to work out other details, like how much xp we have so I can workout the cost for his creations and the like.
Let me know if you guys like this idea.


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## Jemal (Sep 24, 2005)

Character sheet under construction - Needs a little tweaking, otherwise finished.

Darelzmyr Cierellyx, "The Grea C(In training)"
Young Male Silver Dragon 15 HD
(Age Category 3)
Alignment: LG

XP: 153,000 / 171,000

Speed: 40’ walk, fly 150' (Good)

HD: 15d12+150
HP: 260

Init:+3 [+3 Dex]

STR 30 (+10) [14 base (6 pts) +2 HD +2 Inherent +6 racial +6 enhancement]
DEX 16 (+3) [10 base (2 pts) +6 enhancement]
CON 30 (+10) [16 base (10 pts) +1 HD + 3 Inherent +4 racial +6 enhancement]
INT 20 (+5) [10 base (2 pts) +6 racial +4 enhancement]
WIS 26 (+8) [14 base (6 pts) +6 racial +6 enhancement]
CHA 22 (+6) [10 base (2 pts) +6 racial +6 enhancement]

AC: 40 [10 base +17 natural +1 natural Enhance +3 Dex +2 deflection +7 armor]

Saves: 
Fort +23 [9 base +10 Con +4 resistance]
Ref +16 [9 base +3 Dex +4 resistance]
Will +21 [9 base +8 Wis +4 resistance]

Languages Known: 
~ Common
~ Draconic
~ 3 others (Ideas?)

Combat: 
Base Attack: +15
Grapple: +25 [+15 base +10 Str]

Bite: +30 [+15 base +10 Str +5 enhancement]
Critical: 20/x2 
Damage: 1d8+20

Claws (x2): +25 [+10 base + 10 Str]
Critical: 20/x2 
Damage: 1d6+5

*Wings (x2): +20 [+10 base +10 Str]
Critical: 20/x2 
Damage: 1d4+5
*Can't use while flying*

Skills: 162 skill points
Skill Name (Total/Ranks)
Spot (+30/18), Listen (+30/18), Sense Motive (+30/18), Spellcraft (+24/18), 
Knowledges: Arcana (+24/18), Religion (+/), 

Feats: 6
Draconic Knowledge(1d20+9), Ability Focus (B.Weapon), Recover Breath, Maximize Breath, Hover, Flyby Attack

Racial Abilities: 
~ Type: Dragon (Cold)
~ Movement: Land 40’, Fly  150ft (poor) 
~ Natural Armor +17
~ Ability adjustments: +6 Str, +4 Con, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +6 Cha
~ Darkvision 120 ft
~ Low-light vision
~ Blindsense (Ex): 60 ft
~ Keen Senses (Ex): Sees x4 as well than humans in shadowy illumination and x2 as well in normal light.
~ Immunity to magic sleep effects (Ex)
~ Immunity to paralysis (Ex)
~ Immunity to Acid/Cold (Ex)
~ Breath Weapon (Su): [see below]
~ Skill points 6+Int per HD

Breath Weapon:
~ DC: 10 + 7(1/2 racial HD) + 10(Con mod) +2(Ability Focus) = DC 29
~ Useable once every 1d4-1 rounds (Or 1d4+2 if Maximized)
~ Cone of Cold: 30 ft cone, 6d8 damage, Reflex save
~ Cone of Paralyzing Gas: 30 ft cone, Fort save [failed save = Paralyzed for 1d6+3 ronds]

Hoard: 
~ +2 Book of Strength [55,000 gp]
~ +3 Book of Constitution [82,500 gp]
~ +5 Jaws [50,000]
~ Circlet of Intelligence +4 [16,000 GP]
~ Ring of Protection + 2 [8,000 GP]
~ Gloves of Dexterity + 6 [36,000 gp]
~ Bracelets of Armor +7 [49,000 gp]
~ Belt of Strength + 6 [36,000 gp]
~ Frill cap of Resistance +4 [16,000 gp]
~ Pectoral of Maneuverability/Constitution + 6 [54,000 gp]
~ * Amulet of the C (Wisdom + 6, Spot +4, Listen +4, Sense Motive+4, Nat. Arm. enhance +1) [46,200, GP]

GP: 1,300 

Background: 
The C is a Great, Wise Silver Dragon who gained his nickname for several reasons.. His Initial (C), his scale colour (Resembling the calm beautiful Sea's near his lair), and his uncanny ability to 'See' things. (A major Diviner/very perceptive).  The Great C has always been the leader of the Silver Dragons, his power, age, wisdom, and foresight guiding them through any troubles until his heir was old enough to assume the position... At least that's how it WAS.  Now, the so-called 'great C' is nothing more than a child.  His father, the last Patriarch, died in the war while he was just young.  Several older Silvers tried to fill in for him, but most of them Died.  Now the clan has been decimated, just like the rest of the metallics, and Darelzmyr of the Cierellyx line of Silver Dragon Seers is left to learn his way and find out for himself how to access the powers of the Sea.

Personality: 
Darelzmyr (or Dar as he is sometimes called) has a lot to live up to, and is still young and brash, despite his genetic tendencies.  His moods seem to swing rapidly from wise and thoughtful to brash and reckless.  He is still learning to controll his emotions, and has a very strong hatred for the Chromatics, especially the enormous Red who slew his father.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 24, 2005)

When you add two abilities together in a magic item (for example, a Cloak of Charisma +6 and Resistance +5) you take the most expensive cost of the two and add half again as much, correct?

Example: 36,000 (Cha) + 25,000 (Resistance) + (36,000/2=18,000) gp

(trying to finalize magic items on my character)


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## Shayuri (Sep 24, 2005)

As I understand it, the market price of an item with multiple abilities (aside from things like scrolls and staves which have separate rules) is calculated thusly.

Take the most spency power, and leave it alone.

Add 50% of the computed cost to each additional power. 

Total the results.

That's the market price.

So a Cloak of Resistant Charismatic Magic Detection would be:

+6 enhancement to Cha - 36k
+5 Resistance to all saves - 25k (+50%)
Detect Magic at will - 1k (+50%)

Body slot mods are added on, when relevant...so that Detect Magic would actually be +100%, 50 for body slot and 50 for an additional power.

Seem right?


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## Wrahn (Sep 24, 2005)

I believe the official way to do it is to take the most costly effect (ie the +6 Charisma) and then add 1.5 time the cost of the lesser effects.  So for +6 Charisma and +5 Resistance cloak would cost 73,500. (36,000 + (25,000 + 12,500) )

At least that is the way I have seen it done most often, the rules seem mostly contradictory on the matter.


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 24, 2005)

General question, then.  What is the "Multiple Different Abilities" line on the Table: 7-33 (DMG p. 285) for?  The example given is the Helm of Brilliance.

According to that, it says to multiply the higher item cost by 2.

If this rule applies, could the price be:

Example: 36,000*2 (Cha) + 25,000 (Resistance) = 97,000 gp?

On a side note ... what do you do with an item that has three different abilities.  All abilities are normal cost except the highest which is double?

Anyway, I'm not saying I'm right, just offering up a possibility.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 24, 2005)

Okay... after reviewing the DMG once again, I found this:

Pg 282, Multiple Different Abilities in the "Behind the Curtain: Magic Item Gold Piece Values" has the following to say:



> For items that do take up a space on a character's body (such as a ring or a necklace), each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 50% increase in price. A belt of Strength +4 and Dexterity +4 is more valuable than a belt of Strength worn with gauntlets of Dexterity, since it takes up only one space on a character's body.




So, my item would cost:
36,000+25,000=61,000
61,000 / 2 = 30,500
61,000+30,500 = 91,500




However, pg 288 of the DMG, "Adding New Abilities" says:



> If the item is one that occupies a specific place on a character's body, the cost of adding any additional ability to that item increases by 50%. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her ring of protection +2, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 1.5.




When creating custom items at character creation, this seems more prone to abuse - a player could say the most expensive item is the one that was the first ability, and thus pay 1.5 times the amount for the cheaper item.

So, my item would either cost:
36,000+25,000=61,000
25,000 / 2 = 12,500
61,000+12,500 = 73,500

Or: 
36,000+25,000=61,000
36,000 / 2 = 18,000
61,000+18,000 = 79,000




Depending on which rule you follow, you could continue the formula for each new ability (i.e., have an item with 3 abilities, or 4, or 5, etc)



DM ruling?.... Which would you prefer? I'm confused!


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## scout989 (Sep 24, 2005)

So here's how it is... subject to AmorFati's approval, that is.   When making custom magic items, the base enhancement price is the one that actually applies to the body slot affinity.  Any additional powers after that pay an extra 50%, as usual.  Any extra powers that do not follow the usual body slot affinities pay an extra 50%, plus an extra 50% on top for affinity, which makes them 100% more expensive.  Again, I have to check this with AmorFati, but I think this is how items will be calculated.  So, a headband that allows +6 to INT and +6 to CHA will cost 108000.


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## Shayuri (Sep 24, 2005)

Hee. I always figured you could boost ANY mental stat with the headband slot, since the slot affinity is defined as mental enhancement.

Charisma is arguably a mental attribute...so you could have headbands that boost Int, Wis, or Cha...with no body slot adjustment.

If that interpretation is correct.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 24, 2005)

In my example, they both apply to the body slot affinity. Both are cloaks (of Cha and of Resistance) per the DMG. So, how do I figure it?


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## AmorFati (Sep 24, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> When you add two abilities together in a magic item (for example, a Cloak of Charisma +6 and Resistance +5) you take the most expensive cost of the two and add half again as much, correct?
> 
> Example: 36,000 (Cha) + 25,000 (Resistance) + (36,000/2=18,000) gp
> 
> (trying to finalize magic items on my character)





The way I read it, is that you use the original price of the single most costly ability, in this case charisma, then add the second most costly abilty * 1.5, in this case resistance.

So that would be 36,000 + (25,000*1,5) = 73,500


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## Jemal (Sep 24, 2005)

That ^ (AmorFati's ruling) is actually the official one I've heard most often on the Wizards.com message boards.

Anyways still doing work on my dragon... Any tips/hints/suggestions/problems?


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## LogicsFate (Sep 24, 2005)

Due to a reunion my time is limited on EN for the next few days, so if it comes down to everyone being ready and I havn't been able to get any work done, you should consider dropping me, I'll still try but I don't want to delay anyone
LF


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## Wrahn (Sep 24, 2005)

As far as body slot affinities and secondary ability costs, here are my thoughts on the matter:

I think charging the body slot affinity cost in addition to the secondary slot is generally a bad idea, here is why:  There is nothing stopping you from piling on secondary powers onto the appropriate slot.

For example, you have a belt of Giant Strength and are thinking about a Helmet of +2 Int and +2 Con.  As scout989 would have it it would cost 12,000gp (4,000 + (4,000 x2) )

But what if instead you just added the +2 con onto the belt, you would be saving yourself 2k.

Those are just my thoughts.


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## zantriel (Sep 25, 2005)

After looking at what I would need to do for the Effigy master, and the extra work the DM’s would need to do it right, I think I will not play that. 
Here is what I think will work best for me.
Battle Dragon, Cleric, Sacred Warder of Bahamut.
I still need to finish the character but this should work nicely.


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## AmorFati (Sep 25, 2005)

zantriel said:
			
		

> After looking at what I would need to do for the Effigy master, and the extra work the DM’s would need to do it right, I think I will not play that.
> Here is what I think will work best for me.
> Battle Dragon, Cleric, Sacred Warder of Bahamut.
> I still need to finish the character but this should work nicely.





Good Idea. I love the Effigy Master, but I am not sure how to get it to work properly here. 

I assure you, you just made both Scout and me REALLY happy by going with the Battle Dragon. YaY 
Looking foreward to see the character!


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## AmorFati (Sep 25, 2005)

LogicsFate said:
			
		

> Due to a reunion my time is limited on EN for the next few days, so if it comes down to everyone being ready and I havn't been able to get any work done, you should consider dropping me, I'll still try but I don't want to delay anyone
> LF





We are not yet done with all the characters. The last one, except yours, is still to be made. Take your time, and if you are not ready to join the game as we start it, we will write you in when you are ready, no problem there.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 26, 2005)

My character is finished and posted earlier in this thread.

Do we have a Rogue's Gallery I should be posting in?

Let me know if everything looks okay on the character.


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## AmorFati (Sep 26, 2005)

These are Good to go:

Nonlethal Force - Flitterdust, Faerie Dragon Favored Soul.
Goddess FallenAngel - Luminous, Radiant Dragon Paladin.
Shayuri - Shayuri, Gold Dragon Divine Oracle.
Tailspinner - Zathros, Gold Dragon Fighter.
Wrahn - Versveshedar, Gold Dragon

Please post your characters in the RG thread.


This is what we need:
LogicsFate: Character.
Zantrial: Character.
LordWyrm: Background, personality etc.
Jemal: Upgraded background, to reflect that the Great C isn't the oldest, wisest silver.
Krug: A more extensive background on Kinja. What we got so far is too short.


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## zantriel (Sep 27, 2005)

I'm working on the character, and should be done soon. Dragons are a bit harder to make than your common human fighter, lol.


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## LogicsFate (Sep 27, 2005)

AmorFati said:
			
		

> We are not yet done with all the characters. The last one, except yours, is still to be made. Take your time, and if you are not ready to join the game as we start it, we will write you in when you are ready, no problem there.




Thanks, I really appreciate that


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## Wrahn (Sep 29, 2005)

Not to rush people, but I have seen too many games die waiting on a few people to make their characters.  We had fallen to page 3 and I hope this game is not going that way.

Is it possible to get some start date so we have some idea of when people need to have their characters done by?  If we have 5, it is perhaps enough to start and bring the others in later.


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## scout989 (Sep 29, 2005)

I think we are hoping to have everyone in from the start if possible, but I'll talk to AmorFati and see if we can come up with a start date.


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## AmorFati (Sep 29, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> I think we are hoping to have everyone in from the start if possible, but I'll talk to AmorFati and see if we can come up with a start date.





I say we start the game Monday 2nd, four days from now. I will start to write up the intros for the finnished characters this evening. Also, for those of you who we still need something from, what is the status on your character as of now?

LogicsFate?
Zantrial?
LordWyrm?
Jemal?
Krug?


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## Lord Wyrm (Sep 29, 2005)

I'm pretty much done, the background is somewhat uninspired by my standards but I'll let the characer develop during play.  If there is anything Im forgeting tell me.


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## zantriel (Sep 29, 2005)

Sorry but I am working 4, 7PM to 7AM days this week, so I will not have the chance to finish my character till Sunday night. Sorry about that, I just don’t have the time in between shifts to finish it.


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## Nonlethal Force (Sep 30, 2005)

I, too, would like this game to begin, but I can wait until whenever.  Of course, this is the nice thing about subscribing to threads - even though I always set it to no E-mail notification.  It doesn't matter what page it is on ... I can find it!


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Sep 30, 2005)

Zan, if you need help mechanics-wise, let me know. I can help you work on it...


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## Jemal (Sep 30, 2005)

Srry, been busy with trying to find a place to move into (Been at my aunts last month and she's moving to another Province... I have to ahve all my stuff out by tomorrow at noon (which is aprox 20 hours from now), and I work tonight, and I have no Apt/house  lined up, SO I rented a storage unit for my stuff and am staying at my sister's house until I get a place.  I'll get the work done onmy char. today/tomorow.


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## zantriel (Oct 1, 2005)

It looks like my work is giving everyone Saturday off so I should be able to get my character done by Monday.


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## zantriel (Oct 3, 2005)

Hey guys, just to let you know, I think I may drop this game. I would like to play but due to the job I have I am in a bit of a slump, I sit here ready to work on it but I can’t think of a history, or even what I want to do with the character. So other than make everyone wait I think I should drop it. Sorry about that but I’m drawing a blank right now.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 3, 2005)

I can't believe I _just_ saw this game. The title says "Full" but the first post lists two open spots. Does that mean I can get in? If not, could I be an alternate?


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## Jemal (Oct 4, 2005)

Well if Zantriel's dropping I believe that leaves a slot...

BTW, MR DM, is my char. acceptable or...


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## scout989 (Oct 4, 2005)

I don't think AmorFati's had a chance to look it over yet, Jemal- but I've emailed and let AF know that you've updated, so you'll probably get word on that today.  Also, IIRC Flitterdust still needs to make his way to the RG thread.


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## AmorFati (Oct 4, 2005)

I've had some MAJOR PC & connection problems the last days, so the starting the game, dated to begin yesterday, I was unable to do. Today will be rather busy for me as well, and I am affraid I will not be able to start the game untill tomorrow. I will look over Jemals character later, as well as LordWyrms character.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 4, 2005)

Sorry, I missed the post back there that had the link to it.

I will get Flitterdust up this afternoon when I return from work.  Thanks for checking in with me - I just missed it.


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## Wrahn (Oct 4, 2005)

I apologize in advance, I am avoiding doing homework for a class I am taking, so I am looking at other stuff to distract me.  I noticed a few small mechanical problems in your character Jemal:

Young Silvers have +12 Natural Armor, not +17

Bite Damage is Str + enchancement so +15 (unless I am missing something with the Jaws)

Claw plus to hit should only be +20 (you have the mods right but the total wrong)

I don't see in your magic items where you get the +6 enhancement bonus to charisma

Where are you getting immunity to Acid from?

I am guessing that you are not done with skills, but, you need 3 Knowledge skills to get the Draconic Knowledge Feat.  Also (stupidly) Spellcraft is not a class (race) skill for Dragons.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 4, 2005)

Good DMs ....

Just to let you know that I am no longer negligent in my duties ...   

The character sheet has been added to the RG thread.  It is a simple cut and paste job - nothing has changed from the sheet posted earlier in this thread.


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## scout989 (Oct 5, 2005)

Thanks for help with the double-checking, Wrahn- I hadn't gotten to Jemal's mechanics yet.
Krug, if you're still checking this thread, AmorFati said this about your character:


			
				AmorFati said:
			
		

> Krug: A more extensive background on Kinja. What we got so far is too short.




If you still would like to play, try to update Kinja sometime in the next day or two.

NonlethalForce- thanks for getting Flitterdust where he needs to go


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## AmorFati (Oct 5, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I can't believe I _just_ saw this game. The title says "Full" but the first post lists two open spots. Does that mean I can get in? If not, could I be an alternate?





Yes, you can get in.

As I mentioned earlier I've had some major computer problems lately. I've lost everything I had written down about this game, including the starting post. So now I am in the process of re-writing the whole thing. Hopefully I'll be done in a day or two.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 5, 2005)

Ouch.    Sorry to hear that about your PC, AmorFati. I hope you didn't lose much (obviously the game stuff, but besides that).


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 5, 2005)

Yowch, I hope you're able to recover from the loss of stuffage. Hopefully I'll have my dude done in a day or two as well. I don't have a lot of experience playing dragon PCs.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 5, 2005)

AmorFati, scout:
I'm thinking of making a Brass Dragon Barbarian (or maybe one of the Draconomicon dragons) that will go into (eventually) the Bloodscaled Fury PrC. This requires an age of Young Adult (for Frightful Presence), which means even if I choose the oldest dragon I can from the list of available dragons, it'll take a long time to get to Young Adult, or it may never happen.

What will advancement be like? Do you predict I'll be able to get there eventually? I'm fine with trying something else, but I just wanted to see what you thought.


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## scout989 (Oct 6, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> AmorFati, scout:
> I'm thinking of making a Brass Dragon Barbarian (or maybe one of the Draconomicon dragons) that will go into (eventually) the Bloodscaled Fury PrC. This requires an age of Young Adult (for Frightful Presence), which means even if I choose the oldest dragon I can from the list of available dragons, it'll take a long time to get to Young Adult, or it may never happen.
> 
> What will advancement be like? Do you predict I'll be able to get there eventually? I'm fine with trying something else, but I just wanted to see what you thought.



The Draconomicon has a feat called "Awaken Frightful Presence,"  which I would think should fulfill that requirement for the PrC.  The thing that'll take a while will be the +22 BAB- with ECL 18 characters, gaining levels can sometimes slow down considerably.  I don't think AmorFati or I have decided exactly how many levels this campaign will stretch, but I think it's safe to say that it could take a bit for you to get the prereqs nailed down.

Having said all that, I love the bloodscaled fury, so I fully support you making a try for it


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 6, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> The Draconomicon has a feat called "Awaken Frightful Presence,"  which I would think should fulfill that requirement for the PrC.  The thing that'll take a while will be the +22 BAB- with ECL 18 characters, gaining levels can sometimes slow down considerably.  I don't think AmorFati or I have decided exactly how many levels this campaign will stretch, but I think it's safe to say that it could take a bit for you to get the prereqs nailed down.



Ooh, didn't think to look for a feat like that. Cool. Thanks!  +22 BAB is one of the lower prereq's for PrCs in the Draconomicon--that's another one of the things I was banking on. It's such a cool book, I want to try out different parts of it. I'm glad we have casters so I can see that stuff in action too. 


			
				scout989 said:
			
		

> Having said all that, I love the bloodscaled fury, so I fully support you making a try for it



How can I turn down a recommendation like that?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 6, 2005)

Also, are you strictly going by the alignment restrictions? Does a Bronze dragon _have_ to be lawful good?


----------



## AmorFati (Oct 8, 2005)

Sorry for my absence guys. For those of you who have missed it, here is the reason: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=151442


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 10, 2005)

I haven't added stat increases for 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th HD yet.

Will armor hamper my movement?

70000+ gp to go -- anyone with recommendation to boost my Str? Or my attack? I can afford a Manual +2, but that doesn't seem worth the price.



```
[B]Name:[/B] Drumaxius
[B]Class:[/B] Barbarian 2
[B]Race:[/B] Juvenile Copper Dragon
[B]Size:[/B] Medium
[B]Gender:[/B] Male
[B]Alignment:[/B] Chaotic Good
[B]Deity:[/B] 

[B]Str:[/B] 30 +10 6 p       [B]Level:[/B] 2        [B]XP:[/B] 0
[B]Dex:[/B] 22 +6  10p       [B]BAB:[/B] +16        [B]HP:[/B] 236 (16d12+112)
[B]Con:[/B] 24 +7  6 p       [B]Grapple:[/B] +26    [B]Dmg Red:[/B] -/-
[B]Int:[/B] 14 +2  2 p       [B]Spd/Fly:[/B] 50/150 [B]Spell Res:[/B] -
[B]Wis:[/B] 14 +2  2 p       [B]Init:[/B] +6        [B]Spell Save:[/B] 12
[B]Cha:[/B] 14 +2  2 p       [B]ACP:[/B] --         [B]Spell Fail:[/B] --%

                   [B]Base  Armor Shld   Dex  Size   Nat  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Armor:[/B]              10    +8    +-    +6    +0    +18   +5    47
[B]Touch:[/B] 18              [B]Flatfooted:[/B] 41

                         [B]Base   Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
[B]Fort:[/B]                     12    +7          +19
[B]Ref:[/B]                       9    +6          +15
[B]Will:[/B]                      9    +2          +11

[B]Weapon                  Attack   Damage     Critical[/B]
Bite                      +30    2d6+13     20/x2
2 Claws                   +28    1d6+9      20/x2
2 Wings                   +27    1d4+9      20/x2
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX
XXXX                      +X     XdXX+X     XX-XXxX

[B]Languages:[/B] Common, Draconic, Terran, Dwarf

[B]Abilities:[/B]
Dragon Abilities (listed below)
-Breath Weapon DC 21, 8d4 damage
Barbarian Abilities
-Fast Movement
-Illiteracy
-Rage 1/day
-Uncanny Dodge

[B]Feats:[/B] 
1  Combat Expertise
3  Weapon Focus (Claw)
6  Weapon Focus (Bite)
9  Power Attack
12 Multiattack
15 Sense Weakness

[b]Caster Level:[/b] 3
[b]Spells Known:[/b]
0: (6/day)
-Detect Magic
-Disrupt Undead
-Light
-Mending
-Message
-Prestidigitation
1: (6/day)
-Comprehend Languages
-Shield
-True Strike

[B]Skill Points:[/B] 148      [B]Max Ranks:[/B] x/x
[B]Skills                   Ranks  Mod  Misc  Total[/B]
Intimidate                17    +2          +19
Listen                    19    +2          +21
Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 17    +2          +19
Jump                      19    +10         +29
Search                    17    +2          +19
Spot                      17    +2          +19
Survival                  15    +2          +17
Swim                      8     +10         +18
XXXX                       X    +X          +X
XXXX                       X    +X          +X
XXXX                       X    +X          +X

[B]Equipment:               Cost  Weight[/B]
Gemstone of Fort (heavy)35kgp   --lb
Jaws of the Dragon      40kgp    8lb
Amulet of Mty Fists +4  96kgp   --lb
Belt of Giant Str +6    36kgp    1lb
Gloves of Dex +6        36kgp   --lb
Ring of Sustenance     2500gp   --lb
Ring of Protection +5   50kgp   --lb
Bracers of Armor +8     64kgp    1lb
Pectoral Stud Hlth +6   36kgp
Cloak of Nat Armor +5   50kgp
XXXXX                    xxgp    xlb

[B]Total Weight:[/B]--lb      [B]Money:[/B] --gp --sp --cp
(445500 gp spent)

                           [B]Lgt   Med   Hvy  Lift  Push[/B]
[B]Max Weight:[/B]               +306   613   920   920  4600

[B]Age:[/B] 30
[B]Height:[/B] x'x"
[B]Weight:[/B] lb
[B]Eyes:[/B] Dark Green
[B]Hair:[/B] None
[B]Skin:[/B] Copper
```
[sblock=Dragon Info][sblock=Dragon Type]Features

A dragon has the following features.

    * 12-sided Hit Dice.
    * Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
    * Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
    * Skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Traits

A dragon possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in the description of a particular kind).

    * Darkvision out to 60 feet and low-light vision.
    * Immunity to magic sleep effects and paralysis effects.
    * Proficient with its natural weapons only unless humanoid in form (or capable of assuming humanoid form), in which case proficient with all simple weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
    * Proficient with no armor.
    * Dragons eat, sleep, and breathe.[/sblock]
[sblock=True Dragon]*Blindsense (Ex)*

Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon.

*Keen Senses (Ex)*

A dragon sees four times as well a human in shadowy illumination and twice as well in normal light. It also has darkvision out to 120 feet. [/sblock]
[sblock=Copper Dragon]*Immunity to Acid

Breath Weapon (Su)*

A copper dragon has two types of breath weapon, a line of acid and a cone of slow gas. Creatures within the cone must succeed on a Fortitude save or be slowed for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per age category of the dragon (4).

*Spider Climb (Ex)*

A copper dragon can climb on stone surfaces as though using the spider climb spell. 

*Skills*

Bluff, Hide, and Jump are considered class skills for copper dragons. [/sblock][/sblock]
[sblock=Other Feats wanted]Improved Multiattack
Wingover
Rapidstrike
Awaken Frightful Presence (@ 21 HD?)[/sblock]
*Appearance:* Drumaxius is slightly small for his age, but is not the sort of dragon you want to mess with. He has some scars along his body, but he barely remembers how he got them. He only notices them after battles. His scales are mostly shiny, but are starting to tarnish--a sign he is aging. Not to say he is old, he hasn't even been around as long as some adult humans.

*Background: *Drumaxius was raised for a while by his mother, but she left him earlier than usual. She had left to get some food and she never made it back. By now, Drumaxius has realized she is more than likely dead, but it does not phase him. He had learned how to live on his own, and to fight on his own. He is driven by passion, but tries to keep his temper in check. If he needs to, he can go into a wild fighting frenzy, but he avoids this when he can.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 11, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> 70000+ gp to go -- anyone with recommendation to boost my Str? Or my attack? I can afford a Manual +2, but that doesn't seem worth the price.




Well, if you look at Flitterdust you'll notice that I did decide to go with the manuals for two different stats.  I figure they are permanent increases rather than an increase that could be seperated from my character through a sunder attempt or an antimagic field.  I figured that with as powerful of creatures that we were playing with - I'd spend the extra money and go for the permanent boosts myself.  Mya dvice would be to go with a manual for that very reason ... even if it is costly.  Just remember you are paying for longevity of the bonus, too.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 11, 2005)

I have two suggestions, first remove the +6 Con from the amulet of supremacy (which you may want to rename as it is also the name of an artifact in the Draconomicon) and replace it with:

Pectoral Stud of Health +6 36,000 (Shirts have the attunement of physical improvement and as per the Draconomincon (pg 24) are interchangeable with Pectoral Studs)


My second suggestion, unless you have a specific desire for Weapon Focus: Claws, I would replace it with Improved Multiattack (Draconomicon pg 70), it is twice as effective.


As for how to spend the remaining gold, well it depends on what you are looking to do, if you want to improve your combat effectiveness, you will get a bigger bang for your buck by increasing the amulet of Mighty fist (55,000gp will get +2 Strength, +27,000 gold will have the same end result with the amulet)

Seperating the amulet from the necklace (moving the Natural Armor bonus to a Cloak (or a Frill Stud which can be used as a cloak (attunement: Protection)) and making the Amulet of supremacy just an amulet of Mighty Fists, using the remaining gold to make it the biggest bonus you can (88,000 by my estimation which is +3 for the amulet for 54,000, the +4 is 96k) is going to be more damage for you in the long run than the manuals.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 11, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I have two suggestions, first remove the +6 Con from the amulet of supremacy (which you may want to rename as it is also the name of an artifact in the Draconomicon) and replace it with:
> 
> Pectoral Stud of Health +6 36,000 (Shirts have the attunement of physical improvement and as per the Draconomincon (pg 24) are interchangeable with Pectoral Studs)



Hm, good idea. That also saves me 18k gp, giving me ~90k to play with. But Amulets have the "protection, discernment" attunement. They're not necessarily interchangeable.

And I couldn't think for a name for the item I was making. I had called it "Amulet of Natural Might" or something but then couldn't do "Amulet of Health and Natural Might"... it sounded weird. I guess I chose too good a name. 


			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> My second suggestion, unless you have a specific desire for Weapon Focus: Claws, I would replace it with Improved Multiattack (Draconomicon pg 70), it is twice as effective.



Weapon Focus (Claws) syngergizes with Sense Weakness. I do up to 5 points more damage per hit on each claw attack to things with DR. I think that's better than a +2 to hit.


			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> As for how to spend the remaining gold, well it depends on what you are looking to do, if you want to improve your combat effectiveness, you will get a bigger bang for your buck by increasing the amulet of Mighty fist (55,000gp will get +2 Strength, +27,000 gold will have the same end result with the amulet)
> 
> Seperating the amulet from the necklace (moving the Natural Armor bonus to a Cloak (or a Frill Stud which can be used as a cloak (attunement: Protection)) and making the Amulet of supremacy just an amulet of Mighty Fists, using the remaining gold to make it the biggest bonus you can (88,000 by my estimation which is +3 for the amulet for 54,000, the +4 is 96k) is going to be more damage for you in the long run than the manuals.



I forgot about improving the Amulet of Mighty Fists bit, so I might do that. I'd need GM approval, though, to change the Amulet of Health into a shirt and to change the Nat Armor bonus to a cloak.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 11, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Well, if you look at Flitterdust you'll notice that I did decide to go with the manuals for two different stats.  I figure they are permanent increases rather than an increase that could be seperated from my character through a sunder attempt or an antimagic field.  I figured that with as powerful of creatures that we were playing with - I'd spend the extra money and go for the permanent boosts myself.  Mya dvice would be to go with a manual for that very reason ... even if it is costly.  Just remember you are paying for longevity of the bonus, too.



 That's true. I always avoid buying manuals, though, until I can get the +5 manual, since they don't stack. It seems like a waste of a lesser manual otherwise. At least, that's my gut reaction.

That is a good point about Sunder and AMF, though.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 11, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> That's true. I always avoid buying manuals, though, until I can get the +5 manual, since they don't stack. It seems like a waste of a lesser manual otherwise. At least, that's my gut reaction.




Very true.  Althoug I typically buy the +4 variety instead of the +5.  That gets me two full modifier increase and saves a bit of money.  But either way, I understand your point and dilemma.

Although with your savings you are coming closer to the price for a +4 manual.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 11, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Hm, good idea. That also saves me 18k gp, giving me ~90k to play with. But Amulets have the "protection, discernment" attunement. They're not necessarily interchangeable.
> ...
> 
> I'd need GM approval, though, to change the Amulet of Health into a shirt and to change the Nat Armor bonus to a cloak.



Could I have some GM input on this?


----------



## scout989 (Oct 12, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Could I have some GM input on this?




Good timing- AmorFati and I just got done discussing this.  We both pretty much feel that if youy can make a good case for an item fitting a slot, you can have it- we both like to have custom items floating around, and it particularly fits the flavor of this campaign (for reasons that will become obvious).

LordWyrm- couple of things, then Thric will be ready to transfer to the RG thread: first, your BAB is calculated a point high (it should be +14), and secondly, you need to calculate saves.

Jemal- aside from the issues that Wrahn pointed out, all that's left for you to do now is to pick skills and languages, then you'll also be ready to transfer

Everyone else- I have yet to go over the character's mechanics in detail (cause there are a lot of mechanics with these characters!), but I'll try to do that within the next 48 hours- which is likely still going to be before AmorFati gets all problems fixed.  Sorry about the delay, we'll try to get this off the ground ASAP.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 12, 2005)

Neato, thanks scout989.


----------



## Jemal (Oct 12, 2005)

It's been hard for me to get online lately, sorry.  



			
				Wrahn said:
			
		

> I apologize in advance, I am avoiding doing homework for a class I am taking, so I am looking at other stuff to distract me.  I noticed a few small mechanical problems in your character Jemal:
> 
> Young Silvers have +12 Natural Armor, not +17



True, but it's due to advancement per HD, I'm a young silver with several extra HD.



> Bite Damage is Str + enchancement so +15 (unless I am missing something with the Jaws)
> 
> Claw plus to hit should only be +20 (you have the mods right but the total wrong)



don't know what i messed up there..


> I don't see in your magic items where you get the +6 enhancement bonus to charisma



 hmm... neither do I.


> Where are you getting immunity to Acid from?




Silver dragons are immune to Cold and Acid



> I am guessing that you are not done with skills, but, you need 3 Knowledge skills to get the Draconic Knowledge Feat.  Also (stupidly) Spellcraft is not a class (race) skill for Dragons.



about Knowledge: I know.  About Spellcraft: it's not?  I'll have to check the draconomicon for the skill lists then.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 12, 2005)

Jemal said:
			
		

> True, but it's due to advancement per HD, I'm a young silver with several extra HD.




I looked for rules for that (at the time I posted actually) never saw anything that would indicate that Natural armor progresses per hit dice rather than per age catagory.  

Still a Juvenile silver Dragon only has 15 natural Armor and a young adult only has 18, 17 natural armor seems a little high.



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> Silver dragons are immune to Cold and Acid




You are indeed correct (which is odd)



			
				Jemal said:
			
		

> about Knowledge: I know. About Spellcraft: it's not? I'll have to check the draconomicon for the skill lists then.




Look at monster manual pg 69, under skills.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 13, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I looked for rules for that (at the time I posted actually) never saw anything that would indicate that Natural armor progresses per hit dice rather than per age catagory.
> 
> Still a Juvenile silver Dragon only has 15 natural Armor and a young adult only has 18, 17 natural armor seems a little high.



I haven't seen anything official on that score either, but every true dragon variety I remember seeing in MMs I & II has natural armor= HD-1, so I'm going to say that is a reasonable house rule.
Edit:  just to be absolutely clear, this only applies to racial HD


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 13, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> I haven't seen anything official on that score either, but every true dragon variety I remember seeing in MMs I & II has natural armor= HD-1, so I'm going to say that is a reasonable house rule.
> Edit:  just to be absolutely clear, this only applies to racial HD



 Does this mean I get to bump Luminous' nat armor from +8 to +13? Yay!


----------



## Keia (Oct 13, 2005)

Just saw this game.  I'd be honored if I were on an alternate list if sometihng comes available. 

Keia


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 13, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Does this mean I get to bump Luminous' nat armor from +8 to +13? Yay!




Cool!  That'd mean Flitterdust goes from +4 to +7 in the Nat armor category.  Why do I have a feeling this is a ripple effect going on here ...


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 13, 2005)

On the class skills issue....

Here it was mentioned that we probably picked whatever class skills we wanted... is that correct? If not, I need to redo class skills.

An official ruling would be nice, as I did end up noting the dragon class skills listing in the MM.



> Skills: All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) x (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)




I'd also understood that any skills that a monster is shown as having ranks in (in thier MM writeup) are class skills for that creature.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 13, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> On the class skills issue....
> 
> Here it was mentioned that we probably picked whatever class skills we wanted... is that correct? If not, I need to redo class skills.
> 
> ...




I understood the ruling linked above to be for fairy dragons as they are not true dragons and thus the skill rules for true dragons don't apply to them.

I believe that the rule about class skills being defined by what skills are on the monster listing is from Savage Species, which was not specifically mentioned as a usuable source.  I could be wrong of course...

I would guess that the natural armor/hit dice relationship only applies to true dragons as well, since the natural armor of fairy dragons, at 8 hit dice, is already set.  (I never noticed the HD -1 = natural armor relationship of dragons before, learn something new every day)


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 13, 2005)

In the level breakdowns I've seen for true dragons (Savage Species-style, in the Dragon Mags) the Nat armor bonus isn't always HD-1. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't (if I recall correctly). I hadn't noticed before if it was in the MM or not, but I just checked the SRD and it is. Odd....

The fairy dragon write-up does have a list of skills though. I don't know if that rule's from SS or not... don't really recall where I got that from, and since I'm at work, I can't check my books.   I'll take your word for it. It just seems kinda odd that non-True dragons would get a choice of class skills, and True dragons wouldn't, you know? I'll go with whatever the GMs decide, though.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 13, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Does this mean I get to bump Luminous' nat armor from +8 to +13? Yay!



Whoa, Luminous is a radiant dragon, right?  I need to check that out.  I'm more trying to say that you can follow the already-established pattern for your dragon type.  Thus, if all radiant dragons have a natural armor bonus equal to their racial HD-3 (or something- don't have my books handy), and you have a number of racial HD that does not exactly correspond to an age category, you may get a few extra points of natural armor.  But I don't think anyone is going to get more than 1-2 out of it.

Sorry if I was unclear, all- my post was poorly written.  I apologize.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 13, 2005)

I am pretty sure that a Radiant dragon is still considered a True Dragon. That's what I based my post on.  Unfortunately, I don't have the books with me at work, so I can't check.

I would point out that while the metallics and chromatics from the MM do seem to have HD-1, most of the dragons played here don't have the base number of HD, which the MM dragons do. And from what I've read from the SRD (really wish I could reference my books), when you advance a monster's  HD, you increase BAB, saves, feats, and skills. It doesn't mention increasing special abilities (such as nat armor, spell resistance, etc). Dragons have age categories that increase these things, and the other monsters (that I can recall) don't increase special abilities at all.

I'm not trying to be difficult, and I'm sorry if I am anyway.  I would just like to explain my reasoning as to why the house rule should be a broad category change instead of just applying to a few. The MM dragons are already more powerful than the non-MM dragons for the pretty much the same CR and ECL, I'd hate to see the gap widen farther.

I'll bow to GM decision of course, but I'd prefer to state my reasons for opposing in the first place.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 13, 2005)

Radiant Dragons have a non-standard natural armor bonus because of they get a deflection bonus equal to their age catagory to their armor class.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 13, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Radiant Dragons have a non-standard natural armor bonus because of they get a deflection bonus equal to their age catagory to their armor class.





Ah, I'd forgotten about that. (Been a long time since that character was written up.) Still, the deflection is only a +2, making a total of +10 to armor, whereas a MM dragon of the same HD would have a +13, and could wear a deflection ring on top of it (where a radiant dragon would have to buy a deflection ring of a higher bonus because deflection bonuses overlap).

I do still stand by my last post about either making it a blanket rule for all dragon types, or not making it a house rule, until a formal decision from the GMs is made one way or another. Either way, I'll play the character according to character concept, it's just slightly disheartening when my 15-year old nephew points out that I could "get lots more bonuses by playing a gold instead of a radiant". What can I say, he's a little powergamer.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 14, 2005)

Okay, I've a couple of things to say.  First of all, I hadn't noticed the bit about radiant dragons making up for their lower natural armor with a deflection bonus.  However, I do believe that a deflection bonus from racial HD and an enhancement bonus to deflection would stack, much as happens with natural armor (not to mention, they're one of the few available who get a bump to dexterity- which also helps make up the difference).  Secondly, a battledragon actually has natural armor= HD.  So faerie dragons are the only ones who get screwed under his system, which works for me as they aren't true dragons.

Knowing all that, do you still have a problem with the house-rule, GFA?

Edit:  not sure if you were unclear on this, so here's a clarification- a radiant dragon still gets their racial HD-4 for natural armor, on top of the deflection- so you get the same benefit as everyone else


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 14, 2005)

Honestly, it matters not to me.  Flitterdust isn't planning on getting close enough to get attacked if he can help it, and with a fly speed of a perfect 100 ... he should be able to outfly most dragons around.  Besides - Flitterdust's AC is nothing to complain about! :wink:  I was more or less just trying to be funny with my earlier post.  If I wanted a combatant - Flitterdust would not be a fairie dragon.

Seriously, I'm in this for the RP possibilities ...


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 14, 2005)

Hey, my AC goes up by 1. My AC is nothing to complain about either.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 14, 2005)

Okay, I unfortunately haven't been able to check absolutely everything, but here's what I've found so far-

Goddess FallenAngel: Luminous gets 2 more to natural armor, due to the house rule.  Also, I think your attack values are a little off- bite does +13 damage, claws and wings do +7, and tail slap does +19. Also, all attacks are at +28 (you forgot the -1 size mod).

Shayuri- you also get another 2 natural armor due to my house rule

Tailspinner- according to your HD and class, your BAB should be +16, and your base saves should be Fort 12, Ref and Will 9

Nonlethal Force- It looks to me as though Flitterdust should have a +11 for both grapple checks and initiative.  Also, though I know you aren't planning on getting in melee if you can help it, please post your attack values anyway

Thanks all.  Hopefully I'll get a chance to look over skills and stuff soon.  Still waiting on AmorFati to get started- hold in there just a little longer, eh?


----------



## scout989 (Oct 14, 2005)

Keia said:
			
		

> Just saw this game.  I'd be honored if I were on an alternate list if sometihng comes available.
> 
> Keia



We'll be happy to keep you at #1 on the alternate list, Keia.  Thanks for your interest!


----------



## Guest 11456 (Oct 14, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Tailspinner- according to your HD and class, your BAB should be +16, and your base saves should be Fort 12, Ref and Will 9




Taken care of. Thanx.

----------

If you are what you eat, then dragons are people too.


----------



## Keia (Oct 14, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> We'll be happy to keep you at #1 on the alternate list, Keia.  Thanks for your interest!



Thanks.  I'll keep an eye on things for a while, and I actually have a dragon built from an earlier game so getting built-up should be quicker.  Looks like a great game - good luck!!

Keia


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 14, 2005)

I'm okay with your ruling.   (GM's always rigth!)

I made the changes - don't know how I missed the size penalty to attack, I had it listed in racial abilities and applied to AC. Thanks!

So, you would allow the deflection from racial and deflection from a magic item to stack? In that case, do you mind if I rearrange my magic items a bit? I assumed they didn't stack because they're the same type of bonus.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 14, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> I'm okay with your ruling.   (GM's always rigth!)
> 
> I made the changes - don't know how I missed the size penalty to attack, I had it listed in racial abilities and applied to AC. Thanks!
> 
> So, you would allow the deflection from racial and deflection from a magic item to stack? In that case, do you mind if I rearrange my magic items a bit? I assumed they didn't stack because they're the same type of bonus.



Yeah, I think that's only reasonable.  And it might well be completely permissible by RAW anyway; they are both deflection boni, but one seems to me to be a racial bonus, which will stack with an enhancement bonus.  Even if I'm wrong, I'm allowing it for this game.  Go ahead and do what you need to for the magic items, no problem there.
Scout


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 14, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Hey, my AC goes up by 1. My AC is nothing to complain about either.



 Oh, my AC doesn't go up by 1, I was wrong.


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## scout989 (Oct 14, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Oh, my AC doesn't go up by 1, I was wrong.



Poor guy; somebody hand me a tissue...   
[j/k]


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 14, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Nonlethal Force- It looks to me as though Flitterdust should have a +11 for both grapple checks and initiative.  Also, though I know you aren't planning on getting in melee if you can help it, please post your attack values anyway




Scout,

Here's how I got the values for grapple and init:
Grapple: 8 [Dragon BAB=HD] + 7 [10 levels of Favored Soul] + 0 [STR] - 0 [Small] = 15

The only thing that I could think would be wrong is if the fairie dragon BAB isn't 8 because it's not a true dragon.  If so, let me know what it should be and I'll change it.  I don't have the book they are in, so that could well be why it is off. 

Init: 7 [DEX] + 4 [Improved Init Feat] + 2 [Quick Reconnoiter Feat, Complete Adventurer] = 13

I'm pretty sure this one's right.

As far as attacks, without having the Dracomicon - does the fairie dragon get the normal attacks (bite, tail, wings, 2 claws) and they use the damage for a small creature?  I'll be happy to post them, I just wasn't sure if a wee dragon like a fairie dragon would get all those attacks.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 14, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> As far as attacks, without having the Dracomicon - does the fairie dragon get the normal attacks (bite, tail, wings, 2 claws) and they use the damage for a small creature?  I'll be happy to post them, I just wasn't sure if a wee dragon like a fairie dragon would get all those attacks.




There's a handy little chart in the DMG under the main dragon entry that gives which attacks your dragon gets based on size, and what damage die each attack does. I'm pretty sure that it applies to all dragon-type creatures, not just true dragons, since it has sizes listed down to Tiny (and I don't think even wyrmling True Dragons are Tiny).

Anyway, according to the chart, a Small size dragon gets 1 Bite at 1d6 and 2 Claws at 1d4 each.


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## Wrahn (Oct 15, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Scout,
> 
> Here's how I got the values for grapple and init:
> Grapple: 8 [Dragon BAB=HD] + 7 [10 levels of Favored Soul] + 0 [STR] - 0 [Small] = 15
> ...




Small is -4 to grapple, medium is +0


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## scout989 (Oct 15, 2005)

Ah, sorry, missed the CAdv feat- not completely familiar with that book yet.  However, as Wrahn said, small size carries a -4 grapple check penalty.  And GFA is correct as to your natural attacks.
Sorry it took so long to reply, the boards wouldn't let me on for a while there.
Scout


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 15, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Anyway, according to the chart, a Small size dragon gets 1 Bite at 1d6 and 2 Claws at 1d4 each.




Thanks, GFA.  I'd imagine any creature pretty much gets a bite and claw as long as it has 'em.

Oh, and Wrahn.  Thanks.  Read the chart wrong - always do read that chart wrong for some reason.  I even said to myself - boy, that's strange - usually the medium is the base and is zero.  So I checked it twice.  For some reason that line in the book always gives me trouble.  Oh well.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 15, 2005)

Modifications made in the RG thread post.  Hope everything turned out okay.  Attack for the bite was 16 (BAB = 15, STR 0, Size = +1).  That would make the claws at 11 being secondary attacks without the multiattack feat.  Of course, I suppose it would really be 16/11/6 for the bite .. but like I said - if things go well I won't be worrying too much about it.

I changed the grapple to the 11 it should be.

Any other problems, please let me know!

And I had the same problem logging on as you did, scout.  Musta been doing work on the baords, I figure.


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## Wrahn (Oct 15, 2005)

Hey glad I could help 

I know how it easy it is to make little mistakes like that, believe me I have made my share.


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## scout989 (Oct 15, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Of course, I suppose it would really be 16/11/6 for the bite .. but like I said - if things go well I won't be worrying too much about it.



No, natural attacks don't get iterative attacks as armed attacks do.  You have a bite attack at +16- and a full attack routine of claw/claw/bite.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 15, 2005)

That's right.  Sorry, first time building a dragon as a player.  These things are so much easier to pull one up as a villian or even an NPC.  But all the mechanics that go into one as a player are taking a little while to get into.  Sorry if I seem like a dolt!


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## scout989 (Oct 15, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> That's right.  Sorry, first time building a dragon as a player.  These things are so much easier to pull one up as a villian or even an NPC.  But all the mechanics that go into one as a player are taking a little while to get into.  Sorry if I seem like a dolt!



No worries there.  I'm having an interesting time with it as well!


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## Shayuri (Oct 15, 2005)

Fixed Shay's natural armor bonus. Thanks for the heads-up!


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 16, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Poor guy; somebody hand me a tissue...
> [j/k]



 If that 1 AC makes a difference...

I was considering dropping one level in Barbarian and gaining one HD since dragons get more benefits than barbarian level 2, but I need more Rages per day...


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## AmorFati (Oct 16, 2005)

Guys, I am back!

I am working on the completion of the intro post right now. Hopefully I will have it up sometimes tonight or tomorrow, depending on wether I am able to get a hold of Scout soon or not.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 16, 2005)

Welcome back! Hope things are okay now.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 17, 2005)

Aye, welcome back.

And ... when you get done with this intro post - get yer butt over the "Sky Breatehs all Life" game thread and give me some help ... Sye's getting lonely entertaining the troops!  Of course, maybe you are already there and now I'm late ...

Anyway, welcome back.


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## Shayuri (Oct 18, 2005)

Aroo?

*nudges thread with beaklike nose*


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 18, 2005)

Ruh ro!


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## scout989 (Oct 19, 2005)

Hey all, unfortunately I'm not quite sure what's going on.  I haven't heard from AmorFati for a few days now.  I'll try another email and see if I can elicit some response.  If not, I'm just gonna go ahead and start the game- and hope I do it right!


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## scout989 (Oct 19, 2005)

Jdvn1: looks to me like your character is pretty much ready to transfer to the RG thread.

Jemal: still need skills and languages.

Keia, if you're checking this thread:  feel free to create and post a dragon character.  There may be a point in the story where we can get you into the game coming relatively soon.

Jemal, I'm gonna try to get this game (finally) moving within two days- can you have the Great C ready by then?


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 19, 2005)

Cool, thanks. 

Oh, I did want to spend the last 4500gp, though.

Edit: Spent on Bag of Holding and Horn of Fog.


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## Keia (Oct 19, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Keia, if you're checking this thread:  feel free to create and post a dragon character.  There may be a point in the story where we can get you into the game coming relatively soon.




Will do.  I'll put something up for the start . . . though if other things become available later  . . . Expect something in the next couple days.

Keia


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 19, 2005)

I'd be cool to have you along, Keia.  I like how you play in Mightier than the Sword, and it'd be nice to play alongside you for a change.  I hope you get in real soon!


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## Wrahn (Oct 19, 2005)

On page 58 of the Draconomicon they list variant rules for dragon reach based on body type.  I don't think they effect anyone other than me (and NPCs), but I am curious if we are using those rules.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 19, 2005)

Okay - again I don't have the books - but I am pretty sure that the variant rules will not apply to a small faerie dragon!   

_This is me trying to redeem myself from previous blunders ..._


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## Keia (Oct 19, 2005)

I don't think this has been asked elsewhere . . . if so, I apologize.

Can we 'buy off' ECL with experience for the Dragons using unearthed Arcanas rules for that?  If so, how do you interpret those rules (many gm's conflict on it - including me - so I figured it would be best to ask)?

Next, are any of the Dragon prestige classes available from the Draconomicon?  I think the only possible one is the last one (where you swap out your sorceror for cleric), though I think the only possible way to get it is through the silver dragon . . . even then I'm not certain its possible.

Keia


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 19, 2005)

If you can qualify for any of the Draconomicon prestige classes you can take it.

Qualifying is tricky, though, since a lot of them have really high requirements.


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## scout989 (Oct 19, 2005)

Keia said:
			
		

> I don't think this has been asked elsewhere . . . if so, I apologize.
> 
> Can we 'buy off' ECL with experience for the Dragons using unearthed Arcanas rules for that?  If so, how do you interpret those rules (many gm's conflict on it - including me - so I figured it would be best to ask)?



We are not using the LA buyoff rules in UA- since almost everyone has an LA anyway, I don't think that is really necessary.


			
				Keia said:
			
		

> Next, are any of the Dragon prestige classes available from the Draconomicon?  I think the only possible one is the last one (where you swap out your sorceror for cleric), though I think the only possible way to get it is through the silver dragon . . . even then I'm not certain its possible.
> 
> Keia



As Jdvn said, if you can qualify for it, sure.  I haven't actually crunched the numbers, so I don't know if there are any that could be available during character creation- but if not, feel free to aim for any (good aligned) dragon PrC in that book.


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## scout989 (Oct 19, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> On page 58 of the Draconomicon they list variant rules for dragon reach based on body type.  I don't think they effect anyone other than me (and NPCs), but I am curious if we are using those rules.



Nah, mostly because that's just something else for me to keep track of... if I feel like I don't have enough, maybe I'll think about it...


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## scout989 (Oct 19, 2005)

One last thing- can I get a sound-off?  I want to make sure of who is still tracking this thread- I intend to start tonight, unless AF contacts me and tells me otherwise.


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## Keia (Oct 19, 2005)

Sounding off . . . one . . .   

Keia

ps. no problem about the ecl thing.  Just trying all of the options to see if I could hit a prestige class.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 19, 2005)

Here....


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## Guest 11456 (Oct 19, 2005)

Present!


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## Shayuri (Oct 19, 2005)

Scree!


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 19, 2005)

I think I'm here, but what do we really ever know?


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## Wrahn (Oct 19, 2005)

Raises his claw

Present and accounted for!

(Don't worrry about the different reach thing, I was just wondering.)


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 20, 2005)

Flitterdust wakes from his pleasant nap....

Oh, me?  Here.  Accounted for.  Present.  What all the rest said.


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

Okay, we're up and running.  Here is our IC thread.


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## Wrahn (Oct 20, 2005)

How do you want us to roll?  Trust us to roll for ourselves, use a website with a log or you roll for us?

How long have we been together?  Have we been introduced?


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> How do you want us to roll?  Trust us to roll for ourselves, use a website with a log or you roll for us?
> 
> How long have we been together?  Have we been introduced?



I personally am quite happy with invisiblecastle for dice-rolling.  That's been the standard in almost every game I've been in online, so I forgot to mention it- sorry   

Hmm, I guess maybe the first post didn't make it 100% clear- you were all together when you read the scroll.  You have probably had about 2-3 hours together all told, between waiting to be shown the scroll, getting directions, and preparing to leave.


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## Keia (Oct 20, 2005)

My idea for my dragon is a Radiant Dragon 10 HD / +2 LA / Swashbuckler 3 / Paladin 3.  How does that sound?  Any ideas? problems? Etc.?

Keia


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

Keia said:
			
		

> My idea for my dragon is a Radiant Dragon 10 HD / +2 LA / Swashbuckler 3 / Paladin 3.  How does that sound?  Any ideas? problems? Etc.?
> 
> Keia



No, that sounds like a perfectly doable character.  As for ideas, I'd think about making sure you get up to Pal4, and checking out the divine feats in CWar- the undead one in particular could help shore up one of your weak points (undead aren't affected by insightful strike).


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## Lord Wyrm (Oct 20, 2005)

Responding to sound off.


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

In case you didn't see it, LordWyrm, we're now officially playing the game


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 20, 2005)

As far as rolling goes, is it acceptable to trust the DM?  That's just the tradition I know and I'm afraid I might forget to roll and I'd hate to hold up the game on account of it.

I have no problem trusting the DM to roll for me.

Edit:  Also, when casting a spell (As Flitterdust has done) would you prefer us to use a spoiler text as I did to tell you what spell is being cast?  Or should we put it in an Sblock?  Or should we just put in out in the open as a part of the text?  Personally, I prefer the Spoiler text or the Sblock as it hides the game mechanics from a normal perusal of the text.  But I'll do as you desire.

And ... unless anyone objects I'll use Olive as Flitterdust's language color - I'm accustomed to that color.  If there is an objection, I'll gladly change.


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> As far as rolling goes, is it acceptable to trust the DM?  That's just the tradition I know and I'm afraid I might forget to roll and I'd hate to hold up the game on account of it.
> 
> I have no problem trusting the DM to roll for me.
> 
> ...



I've no problem rolling the dice for everyone, actually.  However, I'd prefer to do that only if I'm going to be doing it for everyone- otherwise I'll eventually get confused and hold the game up myself.  So, a poll- how does everyone want the rolling to be done?  I'm happy either way.

My personal preference is for mechanics and such to be in sblocks, so that descriptive text is more easily readable.  However, I don't feel strongly about that- do it however you like best.


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## Wrahn (Oct 20, 2005)

I don't have a preference either way.  There are advantages to both.  If you roll for us, we can declare our actions and then you can narrate what happens, it is quicker and cleaner.  If we roll, chances are we are going to know our characters better and will get the correct modifiers from our characters (if not environmental ones).  So I am good with whatever.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 20, 2005)

I don't mind either way, but I have noticed the game goes faster when the GM rolls.

The best way I've done of seeing it is the player posts his action and then includes the modifiers for the skills he wants (so the GM gets the modifier right) and then the GM narrarates and includes the result of the roll.  Something like.
______________________________________
Seeing the enemies arrive, Jozan raises his symbol and chants a prayer.

_ooc: Cast Bless_
[sblock=Bless]The spell Bless is in here[/sblock]
______________________________________
Tordek runs up to the kobold, slicing his sword at him.

_ooc: Attack with charge +6 Damage 1d8+2_
________________________________
Having seen his opponent, Tordek dashes at the kobold and draws his sword in one swift motion. The sword slices through the kobold, leaving a mortal gash on his chest, dropping the kobold immediately.

[sblock]Kobolds move forward
Jozan casts Bless (+1 to attacks)
Tordek charges: 6+18=24 Hit! One short of a crit threat!
Kobold takes 5+2=7 damage and dies[/sblock]


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 20, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I don't mind either way, but I have noticed the game goes faster when the GM rolls.
> 
> The best way I've done of seeing it is the player posts his action and then includes the modifiers for the skills he wants (so the GM gets the modifier right) and then the GM narrarates and includes the result of the roll.




I would second the "game goes faster with GM rolls" part.  I believe that is absolutely true.  In the games I run - assuming everyone posts daily - I can often get through two full rounds of combat in a single day ... always at least one full round though.


If the DM is to rol for us, as far as making sure the rolls are done correctly here is what I would suggest as an example using Flitterdust's actual stats.  These are very similar to what Jdvn1 has already posted, so it shouldn't surprise anyone with anything new:

Completely made-up example:  

 ---------
Flitterdust notices the strange dragon over on the side of the valley.  Flitterdust also notices how the dragon seems to be eyeing them suspiciously.  He flutters up to about 30 feet from the dragon and lands, bowing as he lands.  "Pardon me, esteemed dragon.  I can't help but notice that you happen to be wary of my friends and myself.  Is there anything that I can say or do to assure you that we mean to bring you absolutely no harm?  In fact, we would love to speak to you if you would have our greeting."

[Sblock]Using Diplomacy to ensure the dragon is as friendly as possible.  Diplomacy: +35[/Sblock]
 -------

Or, if the DMs would want it, the Sblock could read:
[Sblock]Using Diplomacy to ensure the dragon is as friendly as possible.  Diplomacy: +35 {+7(mod)+20(ranks)+8(Synergy:Bluff,Knowledge,SenseMotive and Feat:Negotiator)}[/Sblock]

The extra info added is easily enough done from my perspective, although not needed if the DM doesn't want it.


I also like what Wrahn says in that if we don't do the rolling, it may be easier for the DM to take our action declarations and put them together in a nice, neat, and quite easily read post.  I have founf that to be true in my example as well.

In the end, though, I'll do whatever gets decided.  Not a major issue, just wanted to make sure.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 20, 2005)

Eeek! Lots of movement since I checked the thread yesterday!

I vote for GM rolling. Faster, I don't have to remember, etc. What they said. *points up*


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## Wrahn (Oct 20, 2005)

From what I have seen the creatures are some half a mile distant, yet I see some people intending to close and attack on their first action.  Either 1)People are moving a lot faster than I realized or 2) there is a misunderstanding of the exact situation (on either my part or those who are attacking in the initial round)

I am assuming 2 from above, so could we get clarification of the scene?


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> From what I have seen the creatures are some half a mile distant, yet I see some people intending to close and attack on their first action.  Either 1)People are moving a lot faster than I realized or 2) there is a misunderstanding of the exact situation (on either my part or those who are attacking in the initial round)
> 
> I am assuming 2 from above, so could we get clarification of the scene?



Beat me to it, Wrahn: by my very off-the-cuff approximation, it will take about 3 rounds to close within melee range of the dragonkin (which, BTW, anyone with even a few ranks in Know(arcana) will be able to identify).  So, you have a few rounds now for your characters to buff and discuss tactics while you're closing.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 20, 2005)

I assumed they were farther away than we could reach in one round - I won't be doing any other actions until then but flying, so I posted my next action as well. Sorry, it's what some of my other PBP DMs request, so it's what I did. If you'd prefer we keep to round-by-round, that's fine, I didn't know...


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> I assumed they were farther away than we could reach in one round - I won't be doing any other actions until then but flying, so I posted my next action as well. Sorry, it's what some of my other PBP DMs request, so it's what I did. If you'd prefer we keep to round-by-round, that's fine, I didn't know...



No problem- I'm obviously kinda new to PbP DMing, so everyone please bear with me while I get things figured out.  I'll be happy to just carry your action forward, GFA- the same goes for anyone who doesn't want to change their posted actions.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 20, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> From what I have seen the creatures are some half a mile distant, yet I see some people intending to close and attack on their first action.  Either 1)People are moving a lot faster than I realized or 2) there is a misunderstanding of the exact situation (on either my part or those who are attacking in the initial round)
> 
> I am assuming 2 from above, so could we get clarification of the scene?



 I hope you don't mean my character.  He's the sort that'll run ahead and fight unless someone stops him (which isn't hard--a simple, "Wait, let's try this ___) would suffice.


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## Lord Wyrm (Oct 20, 2005)

No problem with the DM rolling.


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## scout989 (Oct 20, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I hope you don't mean my character.  He's the sort that'll run ahead and fight unless someone stops him (which isn't hard--a simple, "Wait, let's try this ___) would suffice.



Oh no, it's just that, since I messed up, I thought I'd give everyone a chance to respond to my clarifications.  Don't worry, I'm sure you'll be fine...


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 21, 2005)

Well, the spell Flitterdust cast has got a duration of 14 minutes.  The spell was chosen because of the duration.  I figured with the distance the pack would soon split up - but with then hopefully high Init roll I could get a boost in before everyone went their ways.

Flitterdust is quite content to watch the battle, respond to fallen comrades, and watch for coming reinforcements at this point.


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## scout989 (Oct 21, 2005)

Nonlethal Force, just wanted to make sure I haven't missed anything (cause it seems an odd choice for a casting character): Flitterdust has no ranks in Spellcraft?


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## scout989 (Oct 21, 2005)

Also, obviously, I'm just going ahead and rolling for everyone.  However, as was shown in the examples above, I'd really appreciate an sblock with the appropriate modifiers for whatever it is you're trying to do, so that I don't have to keep going back and forth between three screens to figure out what's going on.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 21, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Nonlethal Force, Flitterdust has no ranks in Spellcraft?




Yes, that is correct - and it is a bit of an odd choice.

But personally, I've always had trouble with allowing Spellcraft to be a class skill for spontaneous casters (those with known spells like sorcerers, bards, and favored souls - NOT clerics).  If their magic just comes to them out of their personality, I personally have always felt like they should really truly only know things that are just like their own.  In-game, in order for them to be able to identify other spells/spell effects that are not their own I would imagine they should require study.  And study usually implies a more wizardly class.

But that is just my personal opinion.  I exclude clerics and those that cast like clerics because technically they can cast all the spells available to them, so it would not be unreasonable for them to have knowledge of all the spells and an idea of how each one works.

Yes, I realize this shoots a large hole in one very specific area of Flitterdust.  But I think that it makes the "feel" of the character much more like a truly spontaneous caster would feel.  Literally, all Flitterdust really knows in the area of casting magic is that which comes to him - his own spells and the like.  [Admittedly he does have outside knowledge into some magic things through his knowledge skills - but this allows him to be comfortable in the world of magic yet not able to identify every spell out there when he can't cast them]

I hope that makes some sense as to a rationale for it.  It may be dumb ... but I guess its a flavor thing.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 21, 2005)

I've got no problem with it.  I generally look at it a little differently, but I think it's cool that you've made that choice- I just wanted to be sure it wasn't an oversight or something.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 22, 2005)

Woah, I missed something.  There are four of them?  I must've misread the post earlier.  My actions are assuming that there is the party, 70 feet away there are the two more fighter types (one with a bow) and another 60 feet back and above are the two who've already cast and are preparing another cast.  If this is correct, my actions should be clear and might (possibly) take casre of the casting ones.


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## scout989 (Oct 22, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Woah, I missed something.  There are four of them?  I must've misread the post earlier.  My actions are assuming that there is the party, 70 feet away there are the two more fighter types (one with a bow) and another 60 feet back and above are the two who've already cast and are preparing another cast.  If this is correct, my actions should be clear and might (possibly) take casre of the casting ones.



I never did get around to posting how many of them there were before my most recent post.  Also, not quite correct.  The one with the bow and the unarmored one are at the back, while the one with the big stick and the armored magic-user are coming ahead.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 22, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> The one with the bow and the unarmored one are at the back, while the one with the big stick and the armored magic-user are coming ahead.




Okay, then nothing needs to change.  Just have the spell be centered on the unarmored caster in the back.


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## Nonlethal Force (Oct 23, 2005)

Not that it's a big deal, but I hope those of you attacking are taking advantage of the Bless spell that Flitterdust provided before combat begins.  It's got a duration of 14 minutes, so it'll be around a while.


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## Jdvn1 (Oct 23, 2005)

Ah, um, *ahem* yes, right. There's another +1, then.


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## scout989 (Oct 23, 2005)

All right, I have two requests for posting that will make my life very much easier.  First, if you use a breath weapon, please include its range along with the other statistics (DC, damage, area etc.).  Second, when describing movement- if you are interacting with another character or NPC, please state in an sblock exactly how far away and in which direction you end your turn- that'll help me map positions more effectively, and hopefully lead to fewer misunderstandings as to relative position.

Also, I've been looking for a while for a way to draw you guys 3-D maps, so you can see your relative positions, but I haven't found anything.  Does anyone know of a program that will help me do that?

I'll post a little later today with the results of our most recent combat round.

Edit: Still waiting for Tailspinner before posting full results, but I'll post everything up to his turn.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 23, 2005)

In case some of you are unaware of the movement rules in three dimensions (aka flying) the relavent rules are listed here

The most relevant part to us big clumsy flying dragon people is:


> Minimum Forward Speed: If a flying creature fails to maintain its minimum forward speed, it must land at the end of its movement. If it is too high above the ground to land, it falls straight down, descending 150 feet in the first round of falling. If this distance brings it to the ground, it takes falling damage. If the fall doesn’t bring the creature to the ground, it must spend its next turn recovering from the stall. It must succeed on a DC 20 Reflex save to recover. Otherwise it falls another 300 feet. If it hits the ground, it takes falling damage. Otherwise, it has another chance to recover on its next turn.




Which I believe applies to all of us except Zathros and Flitterdust


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## scout989 (Oct 23, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> In case some of you are unaware of the movement rules in three dimensions (aka flying) the relavent rules are listed here
> 
> The most relevant part to us big clumsy flying dragon people is:
> 
> ...



Thank you for pointing that out, Wrahn.  As it stands right now, three people are in danger of falling afoul of that rule if they don't change their stated actions (or at least add in something about where they fly when they've done them): Shayuri (must move, since you don't have Hover), Goddess FallenAngel and Wrahn (you both moved only about 60 feet so far).  For Wrahn and GFA, since you both have Flyby Attack, you can move where you stated, breath, and then move again- but I need to know where.
Edit: Wrahn, you have moved only about 50 feet so far.  GFA, because you have no max. down angle, you can have used anywhere between about 50 and 90 feet of movement getting into breathing position- your choice.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 24, 2005)

Can I move, breathe, then fly up and over the enemy, with the intent of being able to divebomb/attack one next round? Whichever amount of movement (50' or 90') would be best for that... (it's hard to visualize for me ).


----------



## scout989 (Oct 24, 2005)

Actually, if you don't follow exactly where Versveshedar is going, you can fly ahead on the level, breathe _down_ on them, and then climb to situate yourself for next round- that'll give you more height.
If you decide to do that, just give me a description of where you want to be in relationship to them (i.e. how far away to either side) so I know where to place you.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 24, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Also, I've been looking for a while for a way to draw you guys 3-D maps, so you can see your relative positions, but I haven't found anything.  Does anyone know of a program that will help me do that?



The only think I can think of to do is a top-down standard grid view with numbers on each person to tell the height (relative height, that is--choose someone to be 0, and list everyone else as +50' or -25' or whatever).


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 24, 2005)

The only thing I can think redily to do offhand is to use a program like Adobe Phoshop (?) to create an image with layers.  You could upload the image tothe site .. but that would be alot of uploading with position changes all the time.  I don't really know any other answer then except to describe distances in right angle format.

For example, for this combat distance could be relative to the front pair of opponents.  You could describe it like this (Admittedly the locations are wrong):

Luminous ends up 20 feet behind them and 40 feet above.
Versvesh ends up 30 feet to the right and 10 feet above.
Flitterdust is 70 feet in front of them and 30 feet above.

etc ... etc ... etc

(forward = towards where the party started from, behind = beyond the enemy from the party's original location, left = the left as the party looks at the enemy, right = to the right as the party looks at the enemy, and above and below are hopefully self-explanatory).

By using right angle measurements, you are always comparing things along these 6 directions.  I used to be a math teacher, so I'll go into that mode for those of you that understand math.  If you were to make a triangle so that the hypotenuse is the actual distance between the dragons, one leg of the triangle is the vertical distance up/down, and the other leg is made up of the horizontal distance ... you are stating the distance by way of the legs of the triangle instead of using the hypotenuse.

Okay, math lesson over.  But ... this could get quite complicated when given direction when a picture could do the job so much easier.  Other than uploading a layers pic (or using Jdvn1's suggestion (which I like better than the layer photo myself) is a good idea.

What about this as an example?  Note: Distances are not meant to be correct for this actual battle...
[Sblock]I left all the other dragons out for simplicity, but they would obviously be added in to a real example.


```
--------------------
|        AB        |
|                  |
|                  |
|        CD        |
|                  |
|                  |
|          F       |
--------------------
```
Note: A,B,C,D are the opponents.  F=Flitterdust.  Each "-" & "|" represents 10 feet.

Height: A,B,C,D are 100 feet above ground.
F is 120 feet above ground.
etc ... etc ... etc[/Sblock]

Of course, the "-" and "|" could represent any distance.  

This might make it a little easier.  The problem with this idea is if you have someone directly above someone else.  But then you could just say "X=both ___ and ___" and give their heights seperately.

It probably could work.  The code function is nice because it treats all the characters as having the same width - so it is only a matter of counting out characters to get things placed correctly.  It is time-consuming, but could do the trick.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 24, 2005)

Thank you, Jdvn1 and Nonlethal Force, for your suggestions.  I'm probably going to go with the code map for the moment, as it allows me to not have to figure out any of the easier ways to do it (I didn't originally sign up for that part of this undertaking, so I didn't have anything set up- sorry).
If Wrahn, Goddess FallenAngel, and Shayuri decide where they're going, I'll create and post a map of everything that's happened up to Tailspinner's turn.


----------



## Shayuri (Oct 24, 2005)

As the others join melee, I'll break formation and circle the melee at about 60' distance. If one of them tries to melee me, expect me to accelerate.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 24, 2005)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> As the others join melee, I'll break formation and circle the melee at about 60' distance. If one of them tries to melee me, expect me to accelerate.



To clarify- there are really two separate melees happening, so should I take that to mean that you'll get no closer than 60' to either of them?  And second, in case it matters, are you planning on going to the right or left (Shayuri's R or L as facing melees)?

Keeping track of all these characters (11 right now) in 3 dimensions and over the kind of distances you can cover isn't an easy thing at all- originally, I was going to do nothing but handle that side of things while AmorFati concentrated on the story.  I don't mind taking over both ends of the job, but I do have two requests (for now): first, please don't be mad if I can't make this game go as fast as I wanted, or if I mess something up; second, please be as specific as possible when describing the mechanics of movement- it'll really help cut down on how much time I spend trying to figure out where everyone is.

Thanks, everyone.  I'll do my best to give you all a fun game, just please be patient with my mistakes.
Scout


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 25, 2005)

Sorry, I was having trouble with my cable modem the last couple of days (stupid cox).  To clarify, I believe I am coming up beneath them and breathing.  I probably didn't drop far enough so 70 feet distance from us dropping at a 45 degree angle and dropping 45 feet (which because of the angle is 30feet forward), leveling off 15 feet and climbing back up 30 feet (which counts double for climbing) and breathing.  Which gives me the distance I need.  I am not sure of the angle to block the shot of the archer at this point, but hopefully he will be distracted.

Isn't tactical movement grand?


----------



## Shayuri (Oct 25, 2005)

No worries, Scout. My apologies for being vague. 

Shay will veer left and start circling clockwise, trying to keep at least 60' distance from melees. Not varying altitude for now.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 25, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Sorry, I was having trouble with my cable modem the last couple of days (stupid cox).




Are you sure it was your modem?  EnWorld was down the last 36 hours or so because of the hurricane in Florida.  Their server is in Ft. Meyers, apparently.

As for Flitterdust, he intends to stay the 70 feet distacne from the front melee and hover using his maneuverability.  He won't move unless the groups move.  So Flitterdust won't be hard to keep track of.  And ... I'll intentionally try and keep it simple because I know the melee and breathers in the party are going to keep you busy enough.  No need to have me occupying your time.

If you need help, scout, you can ask.  Hopefully if we are all clear about putting up or mods for our rolls, our movement, and our spells/variables/damage it should be clearer at least!


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 25, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Are you sure it was your modem?  EnWorld was down the last 36 hours or so because of the hurricane in Florida.  Their server is in Ft. Meyers, apparently.



Wow, I always wondered.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel, I went ahead and just put Luminous down as having gone- well, where she is on the map.  I just wanted to get that post taken care of.  If there is something else that you'd rather her to have done, I can easily change it- just let me know.


----------



## Guest 11456 (Oct 26, 2005)

For a dragon using power attack, do you add the full amount to all attacks or full amount to primary and half to secondary attacks?

Example:

Power attack: +10

Of course it is -10 to hit, but then:

Is it +10 to all attacks?

or

Is it +10 to bite and +5 to claws, wings, etc.?


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Tailspinner said:
			
		

> For a dragon using power attack, do you add the full amount to all attacks or full amount to primary and half to secondary attacks?
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...



The way I read it, you get the full amount to all attacks.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Jdvn1- Since you have poor maneuverability and do not have the Hover or Flyby Attack feats, and since none of the creatures are close enough for you to attack right now, you're pretty much going to have to circle around and come back in for another attack (if you wish to stay aloft).  Although I haven't said exactly how high you all are, I'll tell you now that you're only about 700 feet from the ground.  So Drumaxius is probably smart enough to realize that there really isn't enough room to grapple anyone (*because I haven't found any rules about this, I'm going to say that grappling in midair causes both parties to fall [if they're relying on natural flight, as opposed to the spell] unless the winner of the grapple is at least two size categories larger than its opponent*).  Does this sound like a reasonable house rule to all (or does anyone know of rules for this that I missed)?


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Tailspinner- you'll have to wait one more round for that full attack, as it's a move action to begin hovering.  Is that what you want to do?


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Nonlethal Force- CArc is the only one of the set I don't own, naturally     So I don't know the spell you used, I'll just take your word for how it works.  My question is- how much damage am I rolling?  Your sblock was exceptionally informative (thank you), but I wanted to make sure- it's only 2d6 as far as damage goes, right?


----------



## Guest 11456 (Oct 26, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Tailspinner- you'll have to wait one more round for that full attack, as it's a move action to begin hovering.  Is that what you want to do?




Actually my character would have moved and hovered last round so he could full attack this round and not attacked. Seeing as he is the dragon and should know what to do. But whatever works. Perhaps it is his own inexperience that caused the error. Let me know and I'll change my post accordingly.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Tailspinner said:
			
		

> Actually my character would have moved and hovered last round so he could full attack this round and not attacked. Seeing as he is the dragon and should know what to do. But whatever works. Perhaps it is his own inexperience that caused the error. Let me know and I'll change my post accordingly.



Yeah, I'm gonna just chalk this one up to inexperience- after all, the whole point of this entire first combat was solely so that everyone could get the hang of aerial fighting and how their characters work in that situation.  As such, I'd say that Zathros may have been a little too eager to land that first blow on the enemy, and forgot to situate himself for what comes next- and next time around, he'll probably remember it, I'd guess.
Normally I might be more inclined to let you change something from the recent past, but that's something that I only do when there's very good reason.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 26, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Jdvn1- Since you have poor maneuverability and do not have the Hover or Flyby Attack feats, and since none of the creatures are close enough for you to attack right now, you're pretty much going to have to circle around and come back in for another attack (if you wish to stay aloft).  Although I haven't said exactly how high you all are, I'll tell you now that you're only about 700 feet from the ground.  So Drumaxius is probably smart enough to realize that there really isn't enough room to grapple anyone (*because I haven't found any rules about this, I'm going to say that grappling in midair causes both parties to fall [if they're relying on natural flight, as opposed to the spell] unless the winner of the grapple is at least two size categories larger than its opponent*).  Does this sound like a reasonable house rule to all (or does anyone know of rules for this that I missed)?



Is there a way for me to get a full attack in midair? I'm fine with grappling in midair and falling, though.


----------



## Wrahn (Oct 26, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Tailspinner- you'll have to wait one more round for that full attack, as it's a move action to begin hovering.  Is that what you want to do?




Not that I want to agrue with  the GM, Zathros has Good manueverability, he has no minimum move distance forward and can hover without the feat.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Not that I want to agrue with  the GM, Zathros has Good manueverability, he has no minimum move distance forward and can hover without the feat.



Aw crap, I don't know how I missed that.  I guess now I'll chalk it up to me, rather than your inexperience   
Fortunately, invisiblecastle keeps records of your past rolls, so no harm done- and I'll remember that one for the future.  Sorry.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 26, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Is there a way for me to get a full attack in midair? I'm fine with grappling in midair and falling, though.



As I'm learning in the post directly above this one, there are a few ways to get a full attack in midair- hovering (through the feat or else good or better maneuverability), or using flying magic (which, come to think of it, is just another way to get good maneuverability).  As far as I know, you don't have any of those options open to you.  If you want to grapple the guy, that's cool.  Just be aware that you'll be hitting the ground in about 3 rounds.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 26, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Nonlethal Force- CArc is the only one of the set I don't own, naturally     So I don't know the spell you used, I'll just take your word for how it works.  My question is- how much damage am I rolling?  Your sblock was exceptionally informative (thank you), but I wanted to make sure- it's only 2d6 as far as damage goes, right?




Yes, it is 2d6 per round.  It lasts for 14 rounds against those that it inflicts.  That should help interfere with enemy casting (perhaps - at least draw a concentration check if nothing else) as well as dazzle them for a round - helping the attacks of the others this upcoming round.

As for the effect, as you probably guessed the spell goes off in a circular area - like a fireball.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 27, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Yes, it is 2d6 per round.  It lasts for 14 rounds against those that it inflicts.  That should help interfere with enemy casting (perhaps - at least draw a concentration check if nothing else) as well as dazzle them for a round - helping the attacks of the others this upcoming round.
> 
> As for the effect, as you probably guessed the spell goes off in a circular area - like a fireball.



All right, one last question to make sure I know all I need to know- Does the spell effect anyone who enters the original AoE on every round, or does it somehow "cling" to those it originally affected?


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 27, 2005)

Here is the text:


			
				CAr said:
			
		

> A blazing ball of light is hurled toward the point you designate, errupting into a brilliant hovering sphere.  All sighted creatures in the area are dazzled (no save), and the heat from the blistering radiance deals 2d6 points of fire damage to all creatures and objects in the area each round on your turn.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 27, 2005)

Okay, then in that case I need to know the radies of effect.  You can tell me where you want it centered, and I'll be happy to help you figure out where to put it so you don't hurt anyone but the dragonkin, if you like.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 27, 2005)

Radius of efect is 50 ft radius.

Sorry, I'd have given that to you earlier but I thought I put it in my post.  Apparently not.

If you'd like, if you tell me what books you don't have I can put all the spells that I selected from the sources you don't have in my character sheet.  There aren't that many from other sources, so its no big deal.  I realize you are waiting for the rest of the dragon's actions to post (at least I hope) ... but if I post the other stuff you'll not ahve to wait again.  Sorry!

Edit: Since I know you don't have Complete Arcane ... I already put the two spells I used on my post in the RG thread so you can have them.  The only other source I draw from besides the PHB is the Complete Divine.  If you need those spells, just let me know.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 27, 2005)

No, I own CDiv, so you're covered there.  Unfortunately, I'm moving at the end of this month, so money is a little tighter now than usual- otherwise I'd have just gone out and bought CArc for the game.  As it is, I highly appreciate that you're making this easier on me- thanks!
I am just too unskilled at math to figure out exactly where to set the point of origin for your purposes, so unless someone really wants to take the positions and apply some more brainpower than I can bring to bear, I'll just say that you can manage to hit the cleric and archer without hitting anyone else.  However, anyone flying around in that area had better be careful because there's a damn great big floating ball of light there!


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 27, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> I am just too unskilled at math to figure out exactly where to set the point of origin for your purposes, so unless someone really wants to take the positions and apply some more brainpower than I can bring to bear, I'll just say that you can manage to hit the cleric and archer without hitting anyone else.




As a former math teacher ... I'll assure you that it can be done.  Just barely mind you - Versveshedar and his opponent are close, but it works out. 



			
				scoute989 said:
			
		

> However, anyone flying around in that area had better be careful because there's a damn great big floating ball of light there!




And if by that you mean it is going to last for the full 14 rounds, then ...

It would make an excellent thing to "push enemy spellcasters into" if there are any big powerful dragons who might be able to bullrush a weaker caster.

I don't know if that is a legitimate tactic for anyone ... but the ball will last for 14 rounds.  Oh yeah, its fire damage, so anyone immune to fire damage need not fear it, right mister DM?

Think of it as a free 2d6 damage just for getting your opponent in there.  Well, for anyone who thinks they can push their opponent into it and if they think it is worth their effort.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 27, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> As I'm learning in the post directly above this one, there are a few ways to get a full attack in midair- hovering (through the feat or else good or better maneuverability), or using flying magic (which, come to think of it, is just another way to get good maneuverability).  As far as I know, you don't have any of those options open to you.  If you want to grapple the guy, that's cool.  Just be aware that you'll be hitting the ground in about 3 rounds.



Yow, 3 rounds. I'm fine with that. Out of curiosity, though, how far is the drop? I'd let go after the 2nd round since it takes a full round to recover from a fall.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 27, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> to figure out exactly where to set the point of origin




Okay, as I said .. former math teacher.  Can't turn dowen the challenge.  So I ran through a few quadratic equations - used the distance formula to set the origin of the spell to encompass the two selescted foes but to miss Versveshedar and Luminous ... and here's where I came up with.  The spell will go off 3.14 feet behind Versveshedar and 57.66 feet to the right.  This will encompass both enemies as I desire.

Just so the DM (and everyone else) knows where the spell boundaries are, the edge of the spell effect is 7.75 feet from Versveshedar to the right (as Flitterdust sees it - so technically "down" the screen).  From Luminous' perspective the edge of the spell effect is almost exactly 41 feet in front of her.

I realize this is pretty much unnecessary ... but if it helps the DM to know exactly where the spell effect is, its worth it.  Also, it just shows how close a few of the enemies are to being pushed in!


----------



## scout989 (Oct 27, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> Yow, 3 rounds. I'm fine with that. Out of curiosity, though, how far is the drop? I'd let go after the 2nd round since it takes a full round to recover from a fall.



Well, you're about 700 feet off the ground right now.  On the first round when you don't maintain minimum forward speed, you'll fall 150'.  Each round after that, you'll fall a further 300' unless you make a DC 20 reflex save.  So at the end of the third round, you'll take 20d6 falling daamage unless you've recovered from your stall.  Also, the text in the DMG says that you must spend your turn to recover from a fall- it's not explained any better than that, so it sounds like a full round action to recover.  In other words, I hope you're no longer grappling at the end of the second round- otherwise there may not be a chance to recover.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Oct 28, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Well, you're about 700 feet off the ground right now.  On the first round when you don't maintain minimum forward speed, you'll fall 150'.  Each round after that, you'll fall a further 300' unless you make a DC 20 reflex save.  So at the end of the third round, you'll take 20d6 falling daamage unless you've recovered from your stall.  Also, the text in the DMG says that you must spend your turn to recover from a fall- it's not explained any better than that, so it sounds like a full round action to recover.  In other words, I hope you're no longer grappling at the end of the second round- otherwise there may not be a chance to recover.



 So... high enough up where I don't want to risk taking falling damage (20d6 hurts even for a huge guy like me ), but I have a high enough Reflex save where I'm not _too_ worried about it. I think it'd be a good guess that my grapple checks are good enough to decide when I want to let go of the grapple.


----------



## scout989 (Oct 31, 2005)

I'll try to get the next post together and up tomorrow.  This game may go fairly slowly- one to two posts per week on my part- for a while, as I am about to start moving to a new house and I'm responsible for all of the packing and cleanup here.  But, I definitely will not abandon this game.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Oct 31, 2005)

Good luck and a safe move!    I'm sure we all understand.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Oct 31, 2005)

Actually, your absence for a little bit suits my schedult rather well.  I will be away from the internet from Tuesday until Thursday after 5:00 (EST)  I will be back online Thursday night however.  If necessary, Flitterdust can certainly be NPCed.  He's not much of a combatant - having done about all the damage he can do except to heal his comrades.  If his turn in the init comes around while I am gone, he can just be assumed to have readied a healing spell until one of his comrades looks as if they need it and are in a position that he can get to them without much risk of getting into the mix himself.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 2, 2005)

Jdvn1- Bad news for Drumaxius.  The DK he was attempting to grapple actually hit him on the AoO.  You can try again with the rest of your attacks, but I thought I should ask you first- if, for some reason you don't manage to grab him before the end of your turn, you'll be stalled and falling without him.  What's your call?

Also, Goddess FallenAngel: since you're counting on the Hover feat for your hovering ability, you must take a move action to begin hovering.  If you choose to do that, you won't get in an attack this round (but you'll be hovering at the start of the next).  Your other option is to use up at least 75' of movement this round, take a single attack, and begin hovering next turn if it's a good move.  What's your call?

LordWyrm: my bad there, I just overlooked what happened to you when I posted the damage from last round.  The DK hit you for 20 pts.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 2, 2005)

Hmm... can I do the 75' movement, single attack, start hovering next round? Maybe take a round-about way to my target?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 2, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Jdvn1- Bad news for Drumaxius.  The DK he was attempting to grapple actually hit him on the AoO.  You can try again with the rest of your attacks, but I thought I should ask you first- if, for some reason you don't manage to grab him before the end of your turn, you'll be stalled and falling without him.  What's your call?



Yeah, I'm gonna keep trying.

I'm banking on the fact that a 47 AC is hard to hit and this guy needs Combat Reflexes to hit me again. Then again, bad opposed rolls could get me. 

Still, going for it.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 6, 2005)

All right all, I've recruited Tailspinner to help keep the game running a little more smoothly/quickly.  He ought to be posting a better version of the map in the IC thread soon, and I'll try to get this game rolling again.


----------



## Shayuri (Nov 6, 2005)

Yay! I was getting worried.


----------



## Guest 11456 (Nov 7, 2005)

Post is up. Please repost your action for this round. Also read through my post and if you have questions post them here. I hope we can get this game moving once more.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 7, 2005)

... Can I keep my action the same?


----------



## Guest 11456 (Nov 8, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> ... Can I keep my action the same?




Yes. But the grapple is your only viable action. The other two have you going less then your minimum fly speed of 75 feet. If you don't go your minimum you start falling because you stall kind of like an airplane.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 8, 2005)

I'd like to keep my action... I'd re-write it using the new grid/map, but it confusles me.   I think that scout and I had worked out a viable way of doing so?


----------



## Guest 11456 (Nov 8, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> I'd like to keep my action... I'd re-write it using the new grid/map, but it confusles me.   I think that scout and I had worked out a viable way of doing so?




OK. I'll await DM ruling on that. Your current action as I see it is Move, Hover, & Attack. Which is a move action, a move equivalent action, & an attack action. Normally you are only able to make two actions.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 8, 2005)

I think you put me a little close to the one with the club (I should be out of his reach, assuming he has 10 ft of reach).  Other than that I think my action is alright.

By my estimation, I need to fly approxiamately 65 feet to get to the arcanist, doubled for flying up (This is further complicated by the 45 degree angle climb that poor manuverability is limited too, but it is close and I have some wiggle room) (20ft^2 + 45ft^2 + 45ft^2 = y^.5 about 67 ft)

Without hurting my brain any further, I am estimating in the 70 ft I have to left in the move equivilant action that I can course correct and move the distance (have to turn about 22 degrees by my estimation assuming Vers has already passed underneath them and is heading 90 degree at a level pace and should end at WEA


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 8, 2005)

Tailspinner said:
			
		

> Yes. But the grapple is your only viable action. The other two have you going less then your minimum fly speed of 75 feet. If you don't go your minimum you start falling because you stall kind of like an airplane.



I'm fine with that--grapple it is.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Nov 8, 2005)

See ... this is precisely why I came up with a non-combat dragon who heals in combat.

Anyone need healing, beckon flitterdust.  He'll be on the edge of the battlefield where he cannot get hurt and xyz coordinates aren't as big of a deal. 

No offense, TS - your maps appear as though they took a great amount of time and you are to be commended.  Just too much thinking for me...


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 9, 2005)

Tailspinner said:
			
		

> OK. I'll await DM ruling on that. Your current action as I see it is Move, Hover, & Attack. Which is a move action, a move equivalent action, & an attack action. Normally you are only able to make two actions.




Actually, we had covered that;

Here:


			
				scout989 said:
			
		

> Also, Goddess FallenAngel: since you're counting on the Hover feat for your hovering ability, you must take a move action to begin hovering.  If you choose to do that, you won't get in an attack this round (but you'll be hovering at the start of the next).  Your other option is to use up at least 75' of movement this round, take a single attack, and begin hovering next turn if it's a good move.  What's your call?




And here:


			
				Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Hmm... can I do the 75' movement, single attack, start hovering next round? Maybe take a round-about way to my target?





...but I never got an answer to the second post, either yes or no....


----------



## Shayuri (Nov 9, 2005)

Agh...I can't believe I missed that. She originally had Hover. I took it out, and forgot that it was a prereq.

Okay. I'll fix. Thanks for pointing it out.


----------



## Guest 11456 (Nov 9, 2005)

A lesson on 3-D reach:

5 feet space, 5 feet reach:

[sblock]
	
	



```
.....  .....  .....  .....  .....
.....  ..r..  .rrr.  ..r..  .....
.....  .rrr.  .rXr.  .rrr.  .....
.....  ..r..  .rrr.  ..r..  .....
.....  .....  .....  .....  .....
```
[/sblock]
10 feet space, 10 feet reach:

[sblock]
	
	



```
........  ........  ........  ........  ........  ........  ........  ........
........  ........  ........  ...rr...  ...rr...  ........  ........  ........
........  ........  ...rr...  ..rrrr..  ..rrrr..  ...rr...  ........  ........
........  ...rr...  ..rrrr..  .rrXXrr.  .rrXXrr.  ..rrrr..  ...rr...  ........
........  ...rr...  ..rrrr..  .rrXXrr.  .rrXXrr.  ..rrrr..  ...rr...  ........
........  ........  ...rr...  ..rrrr..  ..rrrr..  ...rr...  ........  ........
........  ........  ........  ...rr...  ...rr...  ........  ........  ........
........  ........  ........  ........  ........  ........  ........  ........
```
[/sblock]
10 feet space, 5 feet reach:

[sblock]
	
	



```
......  ......  ......  ......  ......  ......
......  ..rr..  .rrrr.  .rrrr.  ..rr..  ......
......  .rrrr.  .rXXr.  .rXXr.  .rrrr.  ......
......  .rrrr.  .rXXr.  .rXXr.  .rrrr.  ......
......  ..rr..  .rrrr.  .rrrr.  ..rr..  ......
......  ......  ......  ......  ......  ......
```
[/sblock]
X=Individual
r=Reach


----------



## scout989 (Nov 10, 2005)

Sorry all, I've been nasty sick for the last couple of days, and not doing much but lying in bed moaning.  However, I'm back, though still a little out of it.

Jdvn1: You did indeed make your touch attack and grapple attempt this time 'round.  You and the arcanist are now falling (or will be next round).  As I cannot find specific rules set out for this anywhere, I'm going to rule that you get grapple attempts based off your BAB, so you should have a few chances to hurt it before you have to break free.

GFA: Yep, you should still be able to take your action as amended.  However, it wouldn't hurt to edit your IC post to reflect what you are actually going to do.

Tailspinner: Thank you and thank you again!  Incidentally, I think I'm going to use that recruitment thread to post the DKs movements and whatnot, as that will keep this thread clear of some clutter.

Seriously, everyone, if I hadn't got some help from Tailspinner, this game would be bogging down quite a bit.  Three cheers and hip-hip-hurray!


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 10, 2005)

I'm not sure what you mean--chances to hurt it?
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#grapple


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Step 3
> 
> Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.
> 
> If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Attack Your Opponent
> 
> You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.
> 
> You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.



Or do you mean movement?







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> No Movement
> 
> You can’t move normally while grappling. You may, however, make an opposed grapple check to move while grappling.




My only question comes to moving while grappling...







			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Move
> 
> You can move half your speed (bringing all others engaged in the grapple with you) by winning an opposed grapple check. This requires a standard action, and you must beat all the other individual check results to move the grapple.
> 
> Note: You get a +4 bonus on your grapple check to move a pinned opponent, but only if no one else is involved in the grapple.





			
				SRD said:
			
		

> You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponent’s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 10, 2005)

I mean essentially that you can use grapple attempts based off your BAB (i.e. iterative attacks, which you wouldn't otherwise get) for the purpose of attempting to damage the DK, attack it with a natural weapon, pin it, or escape from the grapple.  You might be able to influence the direction in which you fall by winning an opposed grapple check, but you won't be able to fly.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 10, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> GFA: Yep, you should still be able to take your action as amended.  However, it wouldn't hurt to edit your IC post to reflect what you are actually going to do.




Sorry, I was waiting on an okay first, and now it looks like you've posted.... 

Oh well, this was meant to be a learning experience. 




> Seriously, everyone, if I hadn't got some help from Tailspinner, this game would be bogging down quite a bit.  Three cheers and hip-hip-hurray!




Hip-hip-hurray!


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 10, 2005)

Just wanted to point something out...
[sblock]"The arcanist, held in a deathgrip by Drumaxius, sets his face and concentrates as he calls upon his magic to save him. He releases a black bolt of magical energy, very similar to the one shot earlier by Shayuri. Drumaxius feels his great muscles suddenly weaken, as the black magic does its work."
"-9 penalty to Str from Ray of Enfeeblement."

However:
"Cast a Spell

You can attempt to cast a spell while grappling or even while pinned (see below), provided its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, it has *no somatic component*, and you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need. Any spell that requires precise and careful action is impossible to cast while grappling or being pinned."
"Ray of Enfeeblement
Necromancy
Level: 	Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, *S*"

If the guy has Still Spell, that's fine, I just wanted to make sure you were aware of this otherwise. [/sblock]


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 10, 2005)

I should have mentioned this earlier (but I was having too much fun with three dimensional cartography).  I don't see Vers (or me) on the initiative chart.  Shouldn't matter, as I should end up at the same time as the arcanist next round.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 11, 2005)

GFA: Yeah, I thought I'd posted to say that what you wanted to do was fine- but in any case, I wasn't meaning to get snippy with you     If you want to keep your action as I've described, cool.  If not, that's what the edit button is for.  Seriously, I know I'm not making a great job of this so far, but I am trying to be a good DM.

Jdvn1: Yeah, I had figured that any spellcaster in this world is going to get grappled- a lot (dragons are good at that).  Not all spellcasters will have Still Spell, but enough of them will.

Wrahn: Unless it was a fever-dream, I fixed that last night- I'll check though.

Edit- Jdvn1, thanks for bringing that up.  I did make a boo-boo after all.  Casting that spell was a full-round action, which means that Vers got there in time to disrupt it after all.  I'll edit the IC post, right now.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Nov 11, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Seriously, I know I'm not making a great job of this so far, but I am trying to be a good DM.




No worries, scout.  You are doing something that I wouldn't want to do on a regular basis - that is - DMing a campaign that you know full well most of the combats will be aerial.  It is a learning process, you're doing fine.  As long as the campaign keeps moving and we all admit that occasionally we make mistakes, there should be no complaints from me!


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 11, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> GFA: Yeah, I thought I'd posted to say that what you wanted to do was fine- but in any case, I wasn't meaning to get snippy with you     If you want to keep your action as I've described, cool.  If not, that's what the edit button is for.  Seriously, I know I'm not making a great job of this so far, but I am trying to be a good DM.




You are doing fine!  Everyone makes mistakes, and it's not a big deal. I made a mistake by not editing my post.   

It didn't seem like you or Tailspinner was getting snippy, I was just confused.  You're far braver than I am just to run a campaign where there will be a lot of aerial combat - something that still confuses me even after playing 3rd edition since 3.0 came out.  

As for this round - since activating Hover is a move-equivalent action, that means I only get 1 attack, correct?


----------



## Guest 11456 (Nov 11, 2005)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> As for this round - since activating Hover is a move-equivalent action, that means I only get 1 attack, correct?




That is correct.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Nov 11, 2005)

Thank God, GFA.  When Zathros left I thought that Flitterdust was left as the primary combatant against this one.  And .. uh ... that isn't good.  Grantd, Flitterdust has a good AC, but he is not a combatant to say the least.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 11, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Edit- Jdvn1, thanks for bringing that up.  I did make a boo-boo after all.  Casting that spell was a full-round action, which means that Vers got there in time to disrupt it after all.  I'll edit the IC post, right now.



Then doesn't that mean he couldn't attempt the spell at all? He can only attempt it if the three conditions are met: "... (1)its casting time is no more than 1 standard action, (2)it has no somatic component, and (3)you have in hand any material components or focuses you might need."

Numbers added myself. All three need to be true, right? That also means a spontaneous caster can't metamagic a spell while grappled (unless he has that feat from Complete Arcane that lets him prepare metamagic spells).

Sorry for being so picky. I'm not usually like this, really! I actually have only limited experience with casters, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were something I was missing. In which case, feel free to ignore me.  I don't think my action changes anyway. It would mean, though, that he could attempt some other spell and do something else to me.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 11, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Seriously, I know I'm not making a great job of this so far, but I am trying to be a good DM.



Wait, what? I'm really enjoying this! There are just a lot of things to work out. I think very few people are used to dragon characters, or flying characters in general, so the nature of the game is tough. If we're having fun, though, you're doing a great job.


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 11, 2005)

scout989 said:
			
		

> Seriously, I know I'm not making a great job of this so far, but I am trying to be a good DM.




Seriously man, this is a learning process for all of us, don't worry about mistakes, we are all making them as we muddle through a not so easily represented thing on a PbP or on a tabletop.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 11, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Thank God, GFA.  When Zathros left I thought that Flitterdust was left as the primary combatant against this one.  And .. uh ... that isn't good.  Grantd, Flitterdust has a good AC, but he is not a combatant to say the least.




Judging by the map, I'm there too - which is a good thing. I'm thankful that you're going after him; my speed and manuverability class ain't that great, but I'd feel obligated to try nonetheless.  ;D


----------



## Shayuri (Nov 12, 2005)

Hmmm

Shay's Kung-Fu is weak. Time to bust out some of her items.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 12, 2005)

Don't hurt yourself there.


----------



## Shayuri (Nov 12, 2005)

*sniffle*

It's hard being the wyrmling.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 13, 2005)

Aww, I'm sure it's hard being ECL 18.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 15, 2005)

Wrahn- both the club-wielder and the sorceror are going to be dead before you take your delayed action.  Do you want to edit and go after the archer?  He's kinda the only one left


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 15, 2005)

Yeah that sounds like a good idea (and why I delayed my action.)  Will edit shortly, thanks.


----------



## Guest 11456 (Nov 15, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Vers will descend trying to move himself right next to the path the archer is falling.  I would imagine it is a difficult snap estimation so you may want him to make a to hit roll or an int check to place himself in the route. He is trying to place himself about 50 feet below the archer, his standard move is 200 ft double for descent, should allow him plenty of room to manuever as a move equivilent action.  He will ready his standard action and attempt to strike the archer when he enters his zone of control (again with his tail +34 to hit, 1d8 + 29 20/x2) and as he continues to fall through, taking an attack of opportunity (with his tail again)




Versveshedar has a maneuverability of poor, which means that his maximum down angle is 45 degrees for a flying descent and thus a double move. So, for a double move of 800 feet his down part of that is roughly 530 feet and that doesn't take into account movement lost from turns, which you would need to make a few in order to hit your mark.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 16, 2005)

Wrahn- Placing yourself in its path isn't much of a problem.  I'd say that a creature that has, essentially, flown since birth would be able to estimate something like that fairly easily.

Wrahn and everyone- AoOs are going to be taken with your primary weapon- which is your bite, in every case.  Unless there was an errata for this which I didn't read, most monsters take AoOs with their primary nat. attack, and I don't see much reason for dragons to be any different.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 16, 2005)

I'm almost positive that it does state that in the Draconomicon (sp?) as well....

That's why the bite has a higher BAB than the rest of your attacks (unless you take feats to minimize the secondary attack penalty).


----------



## scout989 (Nov 16, 2005)

Okay everyone, I'll try to get one more post up Friday night, if everyone has posted by then.  After that it's serious move time, and it may be a week or more before I can get back to this.  After the move, I plan on getting new posts up once to twice a week- I won't have internet access at home, so I'll be going to the library, and they have time limits there.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Nov 16, 2005)

Well, with this coming week being Thanksgiving in the US ... a slow week next week will suit me just fine.  Have a great move!  :\


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Nov 16, 2005)

Have a good and safe move!


----------



## Wrahn (Nov 16, 2005)

Perhaps this article by Skip Williams on the official website will be of interest concerning Attacks of Opportunity.  It does not address the specific issue but it does say you can trip, grapple or disarm as an attack of opportunity, using secondary weapons seems hardly a stretch.

But I understand that it make the game more complicated for you and if you feel it isn't worth it, I am good with that.

Oh, they just updated the errata on the official site and I was looking through it, came across this:



> What happens when a creature with multiple natural
> weapons gets to make an attack of opportunity? Does it
> have to use its primary natural weapon? What happens if
> the creature has a pair of primary weapons, such as a
> ...




Which I think pretty much says it all.  Again, if you would prefer that we just used primary attacks as attacks of opportunity, for ease of play, I am good with that.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 16, 2005)

Thanks for the well-wishes, everyone.

Wrahn- Thanks for pointing that out to me.  As such, you can indeed take the AoO with whatever natural weapon you wish.  Be aware, however, that the MM does say that a dragon can only attack one opponent per round with its tail slap attack- just for future reference, should a similar situation ever arise.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 16, 2005)

Also, Jdvn1- the way I read the DMG, recovering from a stall is a full-round action.  I'll check to see if I said something different earlier, otherwise next round you'll be essentially staying in one place.


----------



## scout989 (Nov 18, 2005)

All right, sorry everyone but I have to start dismantling the computer now.  I'll try to get online before next Thursday to get the next update out, but I probably won't be back until then.  Have a good weekend and I'll see ya soon!


----------



## Jdvn1 (Nov 18, 2005)

Oh, I understand, but all I want to do is face in the right direction to get where I want to go next round. Otherwise, I have to worry about turning.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 1, 2005)

I hope nothing major happened to scout!  I'd hate to think that this game ate 2 DMs!


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Dec 1, 2005)

He did mention something about not having internet access at home after the move... maybe he hasn't been able to get to the library to get online? I do hope he's okay though.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 1, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> I hope nothing major happened to scout!  I'd hate to think that this game ate 2 DMs!



 It _is_ pretty GM intensive, I think, to track everything... 

Yum, yum, GM-goodness.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Dec 13, 2005)

It's been nearly a month since Scout's logged online.... anyone hear anything from him?


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 14, 2005)

Nope - not a thing.  I am afraid that this game has gone by the wayside and will be forgotten, not completed.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 14, 2005)

I haven't forgotten it!


----------



## Shayuri (Dec 14, 2005)

Doh...I was gonna post a long time ago that it might be a better idea to sorta...abstract the flying combat rather than try to keep detailed meticulous notes on it. It's just too much otherwise.

Sigh. The tragedy. Maybe one day...


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Dec 14, 2005)

Maybe we can try to recruit another GM if scout remains AWOL?


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 14, 2005)

Well, we have already driven away 2 GMs, it may be best to just let it die.  In anycase, now (the holidays) probably isn't the best time to recruit one.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 14, 2005)

Shayuri said:
			
		

> Doh...I was gonna post a long time ago that it might be a better idea to sorta...abstract the flying combat rather than try to keep detailed meticulous notes on it. It's just too much otherwise.
> 
> Sigh. The tragedy. Maybe one day...



 I kind of like that idea, actually.


Maybe it's best if we try to recruit a GM in about a few weeks?


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Dec 14, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> Well, we have already driven away 2 GMs, it may be best to just let it die.  In anycase, now (the holidays) probably isn't the best time to recruit one.




I will point out that scout told us that internet access would be spotty to non-existant in his new home - so we had warning, and I don't blame that on the game. 




			
				Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> I kind of like that idea, actually.
> 
> Maybe it's best if we try to recruit a GM in about a few weeks?




Sounds like a good idea to me.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 14, 2005)

I am weary, though, that the aerial combat is too much for PbP.  I mean, Flitterdust certainly isn't a major combatant, so maybe it is confusing to me because I don't really have to worry about it so I don't use it.  Before we recruit a new DM/GM I think we should all ask Tailspinner's opinion since he was keeping track of everything anyway.  We might want to be more abstract ... but that seems like it could just lead to a bunch of confusion and hurt feelings because it is so hard to describe.

I'm not suggesting we let it die - cause I love my character concept! - but I think we do need to solve the dilemma of aerial combat before going forward - or at least talk about it.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Dec 14, 2005)

I vote for more abstract - frankly, the diagrams were rather confusing to me as well, and considering most of our fly speeds, I think we can move to more story-driven combat and just assume that we can reach our target in X rounds without having to map everything out.


----------



## Guest 11456 (Dec 14, 2005)

Aerial combat is just like normal combat but with an extra dimension. Keeping track of the combat was really quite simple once a common coordinate system had been laid down. I figured you would be able to do the same being a former math teacher, Nonlethal Force. Perhaps a happy median would be for me or someone to keep track of the combat but describe it more then show a map. I have no trouble figuring out three dimentional space. But I has a good spacial sense.

An example might be:

DM: After Zathros completes his maneuver he is facing the club wielding dragonkin, the divine caster is about 40 feet away and a bit lower...

Tailspinner: Zathros turns nose down and dives as far as he can this round. He is travelling at full down speed...

No map is shown just description. If anyone requests further description, the DM can give it.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 14, 2005)

Tailspinner said:
			
		

> I figured you would be able to do the same being a former math teacher, Nonlethal Force. Perhaps a happy median would be for me or someone to keep track of the combat but describe it more then show a map. I have no trouble figuring out three dimentional space. But I has a good spacial sense.




That's why I said that because Flitterdust was not a combatant I never really paid too much attention to it.  I could have easily made sense of it if I needed to - heck, if I can do integral calculus in three dimensions I better be able to follow and X,Y,Z graph!   It wasn't so much that I couldn't do it - more like my character never really forced me to follow it too much.

You know ... like being able to find the inverse of a Matrix by hand after you learn that a computer/calculator can do it for you!  If you don't use it ... it doesn't come as naturally.

But, I did sense that it confused some of the other players.  And please don't take that as a cut, Tailspinner.  I was honestly impressed at how quickly you were able to keep up with the three-dimensional shifting going on.  Very well done, and I mean that!

...

Edit: Actually, though, there was one thing I did kinda have difficulty with.  If grappling meant free-fall ... and gravity is 32 ft per second squared ... then distance equals (1/2)(acceleration)(time squared).  That makes the distance fallen (in feet) in one round equal to (1/2)(32)(36).  Or, 16 times 36 = 576 feet.  That's in one round.  Of course, this is assuming a stall at the top and it doesn't take into account terminal velocity according to the friction created by a falling body through the air.  Did we follow that progression ... or is gravity lighter in this world!


----------



## Guest 11456 (Dec 14, 2005)

The falling numbers were given by the DM. I was just mapping stuff.


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 14, 2005)

As the guy who was linking rules, the only thing I was looking for was a general following of them, not a strict one (meaning, with a poor manueverability you knew you had to move each round and made wide turns).  But in fairness there was some confusion of who was where (at least from me) at the beginning of the combat.  Vers generally is a tactician, so that is how I was playing him.

I had anticipated most combats taking place on good old terra firma, because most dragons aren't the most manueverable things in the air, and built my character accordingly.  I stil hold to that, fighting in a dragons lair may allow for some ariel combat, but they generally aren't large enough for the wide open combat we just experienced.  But I am left to the whim of the game master as well, if he want ariel combats, so be it.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 15, 2005)

Tailspinner said:
			
		

> The falling numbers were given by the DM. I was just mapping stuff.




Again, Tailspinner - that wasn't a criticism on your and your gifts for x,y,z mapping.



I would think a DM might have an easier time if the majority of our combats were land-based.  It just depends if all the players were to buy into that as a reality.  Flitterdust wouldn't have any problem with that - but then again he's not really a combat expert.  And - he is the most maneuverable and in truth would actually spend the majority of the time in the air where his speed and maneuverability are so much better.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 15, 2005)

Wrahn said:
			
		

> I had anticipated most combats taking place on good old terra firma, because most dragons aren't the most manueverable things in the air, and built my character accordingly.  I stil hold to that, fighting in a dragons lair may allow for some ariel combat, but they generally aren't large enough for the wide open combat we just experienced.



I agree. Why do you think I was plummeting to the ground?


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 15, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Edit: Actually, though, there was one thing I did kinda have difficulty with.  If grappling meant free-fall ... and gravity is 32 ft per second squared ... then distance equals (1/2)(acceleration)(time squared).  That makes the distance fallen (in feet) in one round equal to (1/2)(32)(36).  Or, 16 times 36 = 576 feet.  That's in one round.  Of course, this is assuming a stall at the top and it doesn't take into account terminal velocity according to the friction created by a falling body through the air.  Did we follow that progression ... or is gravity lighter in this world!



They cover this in the general FAQ.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 15, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> They cover this in the general FAQ.




Yep, they do.  That's what got me thinking about it.  Although I like my literal equation approach to their "method of averages" approach.  Which is legit, but much more complicated to understand!  Here's the quote:



			
				Main 3.5 FAQ said:
			
		

> Q: *How far does a character fall in a single round? If my griffon-riding character falls off his mount 300 feet up, how long do other characters have to catch him?*
> 
> A:his ends up being both a rules and a physics question. The short answer is, “In a single round, you fall far enough to hit the ground in the vast majority circumstances that come up in the game.”  Here’s the long answer: A falling character accelerates at a rate of 32 feet per second per second. What that means is that every second, a character’s “falling speed” increases by 32 feet.  The distance he falls in that second is equal to the average of
> his falling speeds at the beginning of that second and at the end of that second. Thus, during the first second he falls 16 feet (the average of 0 feet and 32 feet, which are his speeds at the start and end of that second). During the next second he falls 48 feet (the average of 32 feet and 64 feet). He falls 80 feet during the third second, 112 feet the fourth second, 144 feet the fifth second, and 176 feet the sixth second. *That’s a grand total of 576 feet fallen in the first round alone*, hence the short answer given above—the number of falls occurring in any campaign longer than this is probably pretty small. For ease of play, you could simply use 500 feet as a nice round number—it’s easier to remember.
> ...




I wasn't stating anything different than the FAQ...


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 16, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> Yep, they do.  That's what got me thinking about it.  Although I like my literal equation approach to their "method of averages" approach.  Which is legit, but much more complicated to understand!  Here's the quote:
> ...
> I wasn't stating anything different than the FAQ...



It's easier for me to look at the FAQ and say, "It says we do this. I'm completely fine with that ruling." I don't mess with the explanations if I don't need to. It's not like it's based on any D&D rules.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 16, 2005)

Jdvn1 said:
			
		

> It's easier for me to look at the FAQ and say, "It says we do this. I'm completely fine with that ruling." I don't mess with the explanations if I don't need to. It's not like it's based on any D&D rules.




It's alright, Jdvn1 ... It wasn't your decision to make.  Scout made the call of how far you fell each round as DM.  I didn't even question it until I read the FAQ and found out it was much more than 100 feet or so!  But even then, if that's what the DM calls, then that's what the DM calls.  No big deal - I was just saying, that's all.


----------



## Wrahn (Dec 16, 2005)

The top ten reasons why Scout was right

10)  The atmosphere is much thicker here, so air resistance is much stronger.
9)  It is a different world, a foot, yard and meter here are much longer than on our world
8) Dragons (and Dragonkin) and magically buoyed (explaining why they can fly in the first place) and thus fall slower
7) Really strong updrafts
6) Gravity, what's gravity?  The reason we fall is because the air pushes us down, and the air is fickle so we don't always fall at the same rate
5) Dragons are heavier, so they fall slower...
4) we were falling at 32 feet per second per second, but the ground beneath us was moving aways from us as well, just slower than we were falling.
3) A second in this world is much faster than in our world
2) He's the DM, nanner, nanner 
1) It's magic


----------



## Shayuri (Dec 16, 2005)

Re: 8

Yes! Dragons produce hydrogen gas in their bodies as a byproduct of their digestion, and store it in a series of internal vesicles along the sides of their long, sinuous bodies. Their wings provide propulsion and directional control, but the LIFT is generated by the lighter-than-air gas they store. They can also regurgitate a portion of the hydrogen under high pressure, igniting it by means of a small organ on the inside of the tip of their snouts that generates a small electric charge. This results in a momentary, directed flash of fire. It's all explainable!

SCIENCE!

(With apologies to anyone involved in the writing of Flight of Dragons)


----------



## Lord Wyrm (Dec 16, 2005)

Now explain Ice breath.


----------



## Nonlethal Force (Dec 17, 2005)

And this is the thanks I get for actually trying to illustrate the rules....


----------



## Jdvn1 (Dec 17, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> It's alright, Jdvn1 ... It wasn't your decision to make.  Scout made the call of how far you fell each round as DM.  I didn't even question it until I read the FAQ and found out it was much more than 100 feet or so!  But even then, if that's what the DM calls, then that's what the DM calls.  No big deal - I was just saying, that's all.



Oh, I was fine with Scout's ruling. The rule in the FAQ is determined by Physics, not by D&D. If Scout thought some other number was appropriate for balance (or for story), then I'm fine with that. I just like knowing what the rule _is_.


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## Jdvn1 (Dec 17, 2005)

Nonlethal Force said:
			
		

> And this is the thanks I get for actually trying to illustrate the rules....





We appreciate the effort! 

I'm a Math major, but I hate seeing calculations like that in a D&D game. I want to get _away_ from that.


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