# Blade Barrier - Overpowered?  I think so.



## Anabstercorian (Sep 16, 2002)

I think Blade Barrier is overpowered, for the following reasons:

 - It causes slashing damage, not elemental, and can thus pierce any energy resistance.  The 6th level Energy Immunity can allow a mage to laugh in the face of meteor storms, chain lightnings, or draconic breath, while NO spell provides significant protection against Blade Barrier aside from Iron Body.  Even Stoneskin is almost irrelevant.

 - It lasts for 10 minutes per level, allowing it to serve as a sort of immense sawblade that can tear down even the toughest of structures with hundreds of hacking blades. It effectively has the Repeat Spell metamagic feat a bazillion times for free!

 - It's got a thirty foot radius disc - Okay, that's not really overpowered, just something cool.

 I think this spell needs some tweaks to remain balanced.  I've seen myself the spectacular devastation it can wreak upon foes.  Here's what I recommend be changed:

 First off, cut the duration to 1 round per level, and certainly no more than a minute per level.  If it's arranged along a hortizontal plane, creatures inside it should get a reflex save for half damage every round, not just a chance to get out before things get hairy.  Third, it should be a seventh level spell.  As is, the sucker is far superior to even Meteor Storm, and almost better than Horrid Wilting.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Sep 16, 2002)

As long as your PC isn't being _held_, there's no reason to be hurt by this spell. It's like Wall of Fire, you discourage your opponent from crossing the barrier.


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## Anubis (Sep 16, 2002)

It's immobile, you can save to avoid it altogether, and it's easy to get away from.  Unless paired with Otto's Irresistible Dance, this spell rarely does anything.


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 16, 2002)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> *As long as your PC isn't being held, there's no reason to be hurt by this spell. It's like Wall of Fire, you discourage your opponent from crossing the barrier. *




except the 1st round when it s cast.  In that round you can easily take damage that blows even the arcane damage caps out of the water.  I effectively see it as one of the damaging wall or clud spells.  I'd put it's damage aorund 6d6 save none or 8d6 save 1/2, and then it still blows away the incredibly lame incindeary clouds 4d6 save for 1/2.


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## Vaxalon (Sep 16, 2002)

Blade barrier doesn't affect objects.



> This spell creates a spinning disk of razor-sharp blades. These whirl and flash around a central point, creating an immobile, circular barrier. Any _*creature*_ passing through the blade barrier takes 1d6 points of slashing damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). The plane of rotation of the blades can be horizontal, vertical, or slanted.
> 
> _*Creatures*_ within the blade barrier when it is invoked take the damage as well. They can negate the damage with a successful Reflex saving throw, provided they can and do physically leave the area of the blades by the shortest possible route. Once the barrier is in place, anything _*entering or passing through*_ the blades automatically takes damage




Since walls and structures are not:

1> Creatures
2> entering or passing through the blades

they do not take damage from blade barrier.


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## Leopold (Sep 16, 2002)

This is the easy part..i just cast spells through the blade barrier and my clerics buff the snot out of the enemy and just wait for it to run out or move around it since the PC's don't know the terrain..


this is more of an annoyance than anything else..


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## EOL (Sep 16, 2002)

I think Blade Barrier is one of those spells that seems ower-powered on paper, but in practice really isn't.  I've played some high level campaigns and though Blade Barrier was frequently cast I never had a case where I thought it was more effective or more damaging than it should have been.  Now clerics in general, there you might have an argument, this one spell?  Nahhh.....


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## 1337 h4xor (Sep 16, 2002)

and to top it off it's another 1 turn casting time spell..... someone makes their spellcraft check and shouts "hey guys he's casting blade barrier go kill him."  In and of itself this spell isnt as dangerous as you think


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## The Forsaken One (Sep 16, 2002)

It's powerfull and has caused problems but what's wrong with having a very powerfull spell at that level? Finally some attack spells for the clerc and a powerfull one to, np with it.


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## maddman75 (Sep 16, 2002)

Blade Barrier is not overpowered.  One of the clerics in my game uses it all the time.  It is much more useful as a disruption tactic than it is raw damage.  Sure, he'll hurt some baddies and drop a couple mooks when it comes out, but the real power of the spell is how it changes the terrain of the combat.


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## Zhure (Sep 16, 2002)

1337 h4xor said:
			
		

> *and to top it off it's another 1 turn casting time spell..... someone makes their spellcraft check and shouts "hey guys he's casting blade barrier go kill him."  In and of itself this spell isnt as dangerous as you think *




Adding to that line of thought, since the caster has to declare his target at the beginning of casting, everyone can just move and probably will be safe before it even goes off.


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## dcollins (Sep 16, 2002)

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> *Finally some attack spells for the clerc and a powerfull one to, np with it. *




You know, _blade barrier_ has been part of D&D (at the exact same level, although fixed at 8d8 damage) since at least the AD&D 1st Ed. Player's Handbook (1978).


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## drnuncheon (Sep 16, 2002)

Zhure said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Adding to that line of thought, since the caster has to declare his target at the beginning of casting, everyone can just move and probably will be safe before it even goes off. *




...except that they don't necessarily know where the target is going to be.  You have to decide your target at casting time, but that doesn't mean that you have to tell your opponents where it is.

J


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 16, 2002)

None of that changes that it breaks the damage caps for even arcane casters at its level.  Whether a possible 20d6 alters the fabric of time and space in your games or not is irrelevent.  As a 6th level AoE divine spell it's damage should cap out at I beleive(no books) 15d6 at the max.  Add in that it provides cover as well and lasts for a long time and it gains a lot more than it looses from its casting time.  Look at other damaging barier spells,and say hey its divine not arcane where should it be.  Frankly it should be around the damage of fire wall(a bit more but not much since it has 1 round casting time smaller wall, though it's orientation is more flexible and its slashing damage a small plus), because that's a 4th level damaging wall spell for arcane casters, so an extra 2 levels for a damaging wall spell when divine is about right.


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## Victim (Sep 17, 2002)

I don't think it's over powered.

It has a full round casting time.  Either you're vulnerable to interruption for a whole round, or you give up the chance to cast 2 spells if hasted.  At higher levels, both the downsides to a full round casting increase in importance.

It is also reflex negates.  Do you think evasion is good?  How much weaker would fireball be if everyone had evasion?  That's the way blade barrier works.  If you catch 4 targets and 2 save then you do 30d6 instead of the 45d6 a save for half would do.

Finally, once the spell is cast, the blades essentially become a neutral feature - unless simple destruction of the surrounding area is the goal.  The blades are like a lava pit; only the very reckless or the poor sap who gets pushed in take damage from it.  Also, since the spell isn't (D), the duration can be very inconvient, possibly barring a critical area for a few hours and wasting time on buff spells.


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## Fade (Sep 17, 2002)

Or you can be a bastard like Velendo and wrap a solid wall around them before filling the cavity with a _blade barrier_.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Sep 17, 2002)

_None of that changes that it breaks the damage caps for even arcane casters at its level. _

Creeping Doom. Prismatic Wall. Meteor Swarm. Nah. It's only powerful if your foes can't (or won't) move, and, let's face it, a _hold monster_ or _Otto's Irresistable Dance_ puts the victim one step away from death, anyway.

Nasty with Web, though


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## Anubis (Sep 17, 2002)

Harm does MUCH more damage than Blade Barrier, and gets no saving throw.  Harm is the only thing broken of the 6th-level spells.


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Sep 17, 2002)

I would rule that you cannot summon it IN a solid surface, like a wall, and thus it would do nothing against structures. Most other spells are like this. Otherwise you could summon a Wall of Fire INSIDE a wooden wall, where it could not be put out save by breaking the wall. Purpose served either way.

Now that Wall of Stone or Web + Blade Barrier is just evil. Who is Velendo, anyway? I think I like him.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Sep 17, 2002)

You don't know who Velendo is?
See the Story Hour forum called Defenders of Daybreak


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## The Forsaken One (Sep 17, 2002)

Yes join us! Learn from the teachings of Velendo


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## War Golem (Sep 20, 2002)

Hi folks,

I don't think Blade Barrier is overpowered, but I do have some questions about its use.

1- The AoE is a disk up to 30' radius, but it cannot affect solid objects. If the spell is cast in a long corridor that is only 20' wide, is the spell confined to a full circle 20' across, or would if expand to fill the limit of its range along the corridor, while merely filling up the 20' in the other direction? (Hope that made sense.)

2- When the spell is cast, creatures in the AoE get a Reflex save to avoid the spell - basically to get out of the way of the blades. But on the battlemat, what happens to the creature that just made his save, but should be smack in the middle of a 30' radius disk of slashing blades? Does the victim stay there unharmed? Does the victim automatically move to the edge of the disk (even though it is not their initiative... and they may have already moved there full amount earlier in the round)?

3- A creature fails its initial Reflex save and is now standing in the middle of a Blade Barrier. On its next action, what happens? Does it automatically take damage again? Does it get another Reflex save (and if it succeeds, see Question 2 above)? Should it only get an additional save if it attempts to move out of the AoE (in other words, should it automatically take damage if it does NOT try to move out of the AoE)? If it attempts to move out of ther AoE, when should it make its save - at the beginning of its move? Or... would it not have to make another save until the cleric's intiative, and the creature can act freely and without harm on its initiative?

Thanks for any insights!

Cheers,

-War Golem


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## Vaxalon (Sep 20, 2002)

I rule that creatures caught in a horizontal blade barrier can duck below it if they make their reflex save.

If you put it 6" off the floor, then you jumped on top of something solid (like a chair or whatever is handy) if you made your save.


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## Jaxom (Sep 20, 2002)

We house rulled that it can only placed vertically or 45 degree angles, horizontal just  got to be a headache.


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## radferth (Sep 20, 2002)

I believe the spell states something like if they make the save, they must move out of the area by the quickest way possible.  When I run it, I have them more out immediately (during the spellcasters turn) but they only get a partial action (or no action, if they had to take a double move) on their next action.  Having them just stay where they are, but they have to more directly out on their next move would be another way to run it.  The question I then have is if they fail the save, do they get a chance to move directly out so they only take damage once?  I would say yes, but this might run into some odd situations regarding who runs through the blades when.


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## War Golem (Sep 20, 2002)

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *I rule that creatures caught in a horizontal blade barrier can duck below it if they make their reflex save.
> 
> If you put it 6" off the floor, then you jumped on top of something solid (like a chair or whatever is handy) if you made your save. *




Hi Vaxalon,

That seems problematic in use, though. In an open field, or a large room, there may well not be any such suitable object on which to leap. And that is quite a different way to play it than, for instance, saying the creature that makes its save automatically moves out of the AoE; in your case the creature may be effectively trapped withink the blade barrier for the duraction fo the spell, while the other guy would be free and clear.

Cheers,

-War Golem


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## War Golem (Sep 20, 2002)

Jaxom said:
			
		

> *We house rulled that it can only placed vertically or 45 degree angles, horizontal just  got to be a headache. *




Hi Jaxom,

I won't dispute that this spell is a headache to adjudicate, but I don't think nerfing it like you all have decided to do is the route I want to take.

Cheers,

-War Golem


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## War Golem (Sep 20, 2002)

radferth said:
			
		

> *I believe the spell states something like if they make the save, they must move out of the area by the quickest way possible.  When I run it, I have them more out immediately (during the spellcasters turn) but they only get a partial action (or no action, if they had to take a double move) on their next action.*




Hi radferth,

My issue with this way to play it is Blade Barrier, as I understand it, is not intended to have any adverse effect on the creature if the creature makes its save... but this penalizes the creature by taking away its next action, even though it did make its save. Seems against the spirit of the spell?




> _Originally posted by radferth _*Having them just stay where they are, but they have to more directly out on their next move would be another way to run it.*




I think this is the way I am leaning to play this spell. Make your save, take no damage but remain where you are (within the blades, but avoiding them somehow). On the creature's initiative, they can immediately take a move action to leave the area without a chance of additional harm - if they do anything else, another save is required... or maybe no save, just automatic damage since at that point they are willingly remaining within the AoE?




> _Originally posted by radferth _*The question I then have is if they fail the save, do they get a chance to move directly out so they only take damage once?  I would say yes, but this might run into some odd situations regarding who runs through the blades when. *




Here I think I'm leaning towards fail your save and get another one next round IF you immediately try and leave the AoE; any other action, automatic damage.

Cheers,

-War Golem


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## Vaxalon (Sep 20, 2002)

I think an element that most people are missing is that BB is supposed to be a BARRIER, not a weapon.

I wouldn't allow it to be used horizontally, except at the mouth of a pit.  I wouldn't allow it to be used tilted except in a stairwell.


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## War Golem (Sep 20, 2002)

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *I think an element that most people are missing is that BB is supposed to be a BARRIER, not a weapon.
> 
> I wouldn't allow it to be used horizontally, except at the mouth of a pit.  I wouldn't allow it to be used tilted except in a stairwell. *




Hi Vaxalon,

Even though the spell description states very explicitly that those angles are allowable?

From the SRD:

_This spell creates a spinning disk of razor-sharp blades. These whirl and flash around a central point, creating an immobile, circular barrier. Any creature passing through the blade barrier takes 1d6 points of slashing damage per caster level (maximum 20d6). *The plane of rotation of the blades can be horizontal, vertical, or slanted.*_

Cheers,

-War Golem


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## Vaxalon (Sep 20, 2002)

Did I say I don't allow horizontal?

No, I said I allow it to form a barrier in a vertical passage.

Did I say I don't allow slanted?

No, I said I allow it to form a barrier in a slanted passage.




> These whirl and flash around a central point, creating an immobile, circular *barrier*.




If it doesn't form a barrier, then it's not a proper use of the spell.


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## War Golem (Sep 20, 2002)

Vaxalon said:
			
		

> *If it doesn't form a barrier, then it's not a proper use of the spell. *




It seems to me you are putting arbitrary restrictions on the spell that should not be there, which is your call, of course. I suppose every DM does that sooner or later with certain spells.

Anyone have any thoughts on the first question I posed:

1- The AoE is a disk up to 30' radius, but it cannot affect solid objects. If the spell is cast in a long corridor that is only 20' wide, is the spell confined to a full circle 20' across, or would if expand to fill the limit of its range along the corridor, while merely filling up the 20' in the other direction? (Hope that made sense.)

Vaxalon - in your case, we could say it's a corridor with a 30' high ceiling, but only 20' across. Should the disk reach the ceiling (not technically circular in shape any longer), or be limited to 20' in the vertical direction?

Cheers,

-War Golem


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## Henry (Sep 20, 2002)

I think some people here may have the misconception that Blade Barrier is one solid blade, like a rotary saw. Instead, by the spell description, it is a 30' radius area of magically created, whirring, spinning blades. However, given the rules for area effect spells, it would conform to the area it was cast in. So, no sawing rooms in half or such, as my group used to play it.

However, it plays pretty well as is. Only a saving throw the first round, and thereafter it alters the landscape of the conflict.

My only question is, how THICK is this disk?  The only way I could see things not crawling under it is if you cast it at about calf height on the floor, which strikes me as very anti-climactic.


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## Jondor_Battlehammer (Sep 20, 2002)

The spell rotates on a plane, so I would belive that it is only as thick as a standard blade.

It would fill out to it's maximum volume, just as any other AoE spell. so in a 10' x 20' room, it would fill the room, at whatever plane it was placed on.

I suppose the various Wall spells are also designed to be used as barriers, not weapons. However, you can still tip them over on your foes. The spell states that it does damage to those caught in it's creation. If it were not supposed to be used like that, I would think they would not allow it to be created at all in such a place. They made such an example with a Wall of Force (?). Any portion of the wall that hits something leaves a gap in the wall.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Sep 20, 2002)

It's like Wall of Fire, only more powerful. At least it only does damage once.


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 20, 2002)

No it does damage multiple times jsut liek wall of fire.  If you are dumb enough, nsane enough, or a big enough tank to shrug off the damage and decide to stay in the damaging area whether it be fre damage from the wall fo fire or slashing damage from blade barrier it can happen more than once.

And it does an obscenely large amount more damage than wall of fire.  Wall of fire seems to take into account its levels, its duration, its additional purposes.  And it does what if you are sitting in it 2d6(+1 a level) so at 20th level if it doesn't have a cap ooh, ah 27 points of fire damage.  1d6 per level, 20d6 cap for a cleric spell that is 6th level just shouldn't happen.  And no it won't on any obvious level break the game, damage caps by themselves don't do that.  The only thing damage caps do is balance spells for efficiency and metamagic feats.  For exmaple if fireball had no damage cap, at 20th level its doing 20d6 wouldn't break the game because you can dish out 20d6 spells anyways.  It does break the spell though because it cost you a lot less in resourses, than a 20d6 spell should and if you decided to empower it or maximize it would out damage the other higher level spells you could have access to and likely by a good bit.  Same thing applies for balde barrier though on a less dynamic scale.  You get more bang for you buck than you should out of a 6th level spell(20d6), and if you decided to empower it(effectively 30d6 for 8th level) or maximize it 120 points of damage at (9th elvel spells) it then outdamages other spells of its new level.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Sep 21, 2002)

_No it does damage multiple times jsut liek wall of fire. If you are dumb enough, nsane enough, or a big enough tank to shrug off the damage and decide to stay in the damaging area whether it be fre damage from the wall fo fire or slashing damage from blade barrier it can happen more than once._

Only if the opponent is dumb, IMO. Note that, unlike the Harm spell, the opponent can do something about it (avoid the barrier).

_And it does an obscenely large amount more damage than wall of fire. _

Yes, the amount of damage might be too high, although I wouldn't know, since my PCs (and NPCs) always avoided the barrier like the plague. Note that the spell is a full-round action, and a cleric can't cast Improved Invisibility (and if there's a Domain that lets you do it... well, I don't think most domains were balanced with each other). Of course, I also think Wall of Fire does too _little_ damage, and same with Wall of Ice.

For some reason, the 2e Wall of Ice was so much cooler (no pun intended). If you surround yourself with a hemisphere, it doesn't do damage, and nearly any creature can break through it to get to you. If you use an ice plane, your opponent is simply delayed for one round as they walk around it.

Also, Wall of Stone is a little too weak. It has no AC, of course, so Power Attack makes up for the hardness. It has too few hp; stone shouldn't have so few hp per inch, compared to natural stone.


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## Malin Genie (Sep 21, 2002)

Large opponents may also have the fun option of bull-rusing/grappling and throwing the PCs into their own Blade Barrier...

Another point, though:  the spell text states that creatures 'entering or passing through' the barrier take damage.  It does not state that damage is applied evey round.  If a zombie took four rounds to cross the area of tha spell, there is nothing (to me) in the spell description that would suggest it would take the damage four times.


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Sep 21, 2002)

_Here I think I'm leaning towards fail your save and get another one next round IF you immediately try and leave the AoE_

I interpret it this way too.

If a zombie is walking through a Blade Barrier (stupid zombie!), it takes the damage, perhaps over four rounds, unless it attempts to leave the AoE by the shortest means possible (n which case, it gets an AoE). Note that a character walking _through_ a Wall of Fire doesn't get a save.


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## mmu1 (Sep 21, 2002)

I think one thing everyone is not considering is that trying too hard to "balance" the spells in respect to one another is a good way to kill unique flavor.  I think the fact that a lot of people think it can be used in "inappropriate" ways is actually a sign of a good spell you can get creative with. 

It'd also be nice if some of the people claiming it's broken would actually respond to the points the defenders of the spell made about the full-round casting time or the save for no damage, instead of sticking their fingers in their ears and yelling "Damage caps! Damage caps! I'm not listening to you! Damage caps!"


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## Anubis (Sep 21, 2002)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *No it does damage multiple times jsut liek wall of fire.  If you are dumb enough, nsane enough, or a big enough tank to shrug off the damage and decide to stay in the damaging area whether it be fre damage from the wall fo fire or slashing damage from blade barrier it can happen more than once.
> 
> And it does an obscenely large amount more damage than wall of fire.  Wall of fire seems to take into account its levels, its duration, its additional purposes.  And it does what if you are sitting in it 2d6(+1 a level) so at 20th level if it doesn't have a cap ooh, ah 27 points of fire damage.  1d6 per level, 20d6 cap for a cleric spell that is 6th level just shouldn't happen.  And no it won't on any obvious level break the game, damage caps by themselves don't do that.  The only thing damage caps do is balance spells for efficiency and metamagic feats.  For exmaple if fireball had no damage cap, at 20th level its doing 20d6 wouldn't break the game because you can dish out 20d6 spells anyways.  It does break the spell though because it cost you a lot less in resourses, than a 20d6 spell should and if you decided to empower it or maximize it would out damage the other higher level spells you could have access to and likely by a good bit.  Same thing applies for balde barrier though on a less dynamic scale.  You get more bang for you buck than you should out of a 6th level spell(20d6), and if you decided to empower it(effectively 30d6 for 8th level) or maximize it 120 points of damage at (9th elvel spells) it then outdamages other spells of its new level. *




There is a HUGE difference between this and every other damaging spell however.  YOU GET A SAVE TO AVOID ALL DAMAGE.  On top of that, is has a 1 round casting time, making it hard to pull off well.

This is perfectly balanced, unlike that ridiculously overpowered Harm that can fell a Hecatoncheires or a Prismatic Dragon in a single hit.  Those two LAUGH at Blade Barrier, but die when hit with Harm.  The only really unbalanced spells in this game are Harm and Enervation.  (There are others, but these are the worst.)


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## Lela (Sep 21, 2002)

Anubis, I'm starting to get the feeling that you don't like the _Harm_ spell.  

As for _Blade Barrier_, it sounds as if I need to start using it more often. . .


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## Victim (Sep 22, 2002)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between this and every other damaging spell however.  YOU GET A SAVE TO AVOID ALL DAMAGE.  On top of that, is has a 1 round casting time, making it hard to pull off well.
> 
> This is perfectly balanced, unlike that ridiculously overpowered Harm that can fell a Hecatoncheires or a Prismatic Dragon in a single hit.  Those two LAUGH at Blade Barrier, but die when hit with Harm.  The only really unbalanced spells in this game are Harm and Enervation.  (There are others, but these are the worst.) *




It's not like Harm or Enervation ignore spell resistance.  Unless the character is high enough level to even have a chance of beating their SR, monsters will laugh at his spells.  And, if he can beat their SR, then he could conceivably kill them anyway.


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## Anubis (Sep 22, 2002)

Victim said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It's not like Harm or Enervation ignore spell resistance.  Unless the character is high enough level to even have a chance of beating their SR, monsters will laugh at his spells.  And, if he can beat their SR, then he could conceivably kill them anyway. *




I'm sorry, but SR NEVER is a balance for a spell.  Using the application of SR to balance a spell is indeed quite ridiculous, because as far as I know, all major damaging spells are subject to SR.  ALL OF THEM.  Meteor Swarm, Harm, Blade Barrier, Evervation, Energy Drain, Destruction, ALL OF THEM.

So please stop using SR as an excuse.  Saving throws balance some spells as do damage caps, but SR never does.


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## Stalker0 (Sep 23, 2002)

My question about blade barrier has always been, does it make any sound?

I mean, the blades whirl and such, but is there any whoosing sounds are whatnot. Because, if not then putting a blade barrier in a dark room or one with a darkness spell, and you have a spell that can chopsui a whole lot of people going through that room.


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## Lela (Sep 23, 2002)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> *My question about blade barrier has always been, does it make any sound?
> 
> I mean, the blades whirl and such, but is there any whoosing sounds are whatnot. Because, if not then putting a blade barrier in a dark room or one with a darkness spell, and you have a spell that can chopsui a whole lot of people going through that room. *




Put that together with an _Unhollow_ spell (with _Darkness_ as the mixture spell) and you've got even more fun.


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## Vaxalon (Sep 23, 2002)

I would say that unless it is specifically noted as being silent, any spell as violent as this would have a sound associated with it.


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## Victim (Sep 23, 2002)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm sorry, but SR NEVER is a balance for a spell.  Using the application of SR to balance a spell is indeed quite ridiculous, because as far as I know, all major damaging spells are subject to SR.  ALL OF THEM.  Meteor Swarm, Harm, Blade Barrier, Evervation, Energy Drain, Destruction, ALL OF THEM.
> 
> So please stop using SR as an excuse.  Saving throws balance some spells as do damage caps, but SR never does. *




I'm just saying that the attacks aren't automatically going to down those kinds of foes, like say they would against a fighter without SR.  

Enervation is hardly on the same level as harm.  It's going to be a fairly slow kill.  Also, there are plenty of countermeasures that can be taken as the negative levels are stacking up.


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 23, 2002)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> There is a HUGE difference between this and every other damaging spell however.  YOU GET A SAVE TO AVOID ALL DAMAGE.  On top of that, is has a 1 round casting time, making it hard to pull off well.
> 
> This is perfectly balanced, unlike that ridiculously overpowered Harm that can fell a Hecatoncheires or a Prismatic Dragon in a single hit.  Those two LAUGH at Blade Barrier, but die when hit with Harm.  The only really unbalanced spells in this game are Harm and Enervation.  (There are others, but these are the worst.) *




Just because harm is more broken doesn't mean blade barrier is ballanced.  A full round casting time and reflex negates(with the if you can get out fot he area, and don't voluntarily enter the area) can excuse the damage caps if this were merely a instaneous blasting spell.  When you add in its other large benefits, like being a dang effective barrier, providing 1/2 cover, oh and absurd continuing damage if the caster decides to use even a shred of team work and have the party wizard cast an assortment of slow down style spells like slow fog, web etc then the reflex save negates and one round casting time(being hasted which is fairly easy by this level makes this a full round action) don't even come close to balancing this spell.


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 23, 2002)

Lela said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Put that together with an Unhollow spell (with Darkness as the mixture spell) and you've got even more fun. *




Except that _unhallow_ has a casting time of 1 day.  I suppose you could cast a persistent _blade barrier_.


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## maddman75 (Sep 23, 2002)

Shard, I have a feeling that web and blade barrier wouldn't work too well together.

I shudder to think though about the possibilities of my group's cleric dropping a blade barrier, then the sorceress following with a Wall of Force dome......


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 23, 2002)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> *Shard, I have a feeling that web and blade barrier wouldn't work too well together.
> 
> I shudder to think though about the possibilities of my group's cleric dropping a blade barrier, then the sorceress following with a Wall of Force dome...... *




Your groups sorceress might not have it but blade barrier and slow fog is just nasty.  Those in slow fog move at 1/10th thier movement, if you drop them either the same time(ready action) or slow fog 1st, thier really isn't any escape.  I hope somone who is caught by this or a wall of forve has a wand of D-Door handy, or a helm of teleportation.


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## Lela (Sep 23, 2002)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Except that unhallow has a casting time of 1 day.  I suppose you could cast a persistent blade barrier. *




It also lasts a full year.  If you think about it you can come up with combinations that work.


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 24, 2002)

My favorite is blade barrier + acid fog + wall of force.


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## Lela (Sep 24, 2002)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> *My favorite is blade barrier + acid fog + wall of force. *




That's just all kinds of bad.  It'd even take down a troll.  

Though, not if he were half-black dragon.


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## ZR (Sep 24, 2002)

*my muck up initiative*

I think this spell is an example of how people complicate things for no reason .

people play on and continue with initiative as normal. You deal with the saves on each char's action through to the caster action. Anyone in the barrier at that point takes auto damage at the start of there action from then on. 

Why this way? Because it is an action and choice to leave the area. If someone says " I want to pick up the vorpal sword I dropped and they move to the edge of the barrier " I would say sure go ahead you can do that, then roll the damage.

Seriously this is how I se it:

The next char in the barrier gets asked what they will do.
answer is "move to edge of barrier like my ass is on fire". 

If they make the save then they moved quick enogh to avoid the blade as it is manifesting in this first round. I they don't save then they still ran but got hit. 

If they don't leave immidiatly then they take full damage no save. 

What they can do then depends on what the move intailed. If they reamin in, they take full damage and then full damage again and again untill they leave. 

This makes escaping the barrier a REAL EVENT THAT HAS TO BE ROLEPLAYED.  

E.G other chars may be on the edge waiting with spears set vs charge $%^^%&% .....joke but possible

You may even get held back by someone with spell resistance!!

the possibilities go on and on and are fun.


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## Anubis (Sep 24, 2002)

Victim said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I'm just saying that the attacks aren't automatically going to down those kinds of foes, like say they would against a fighter without SR.
> 
> Enervation is hardly on the same level as harm.  It's going to be a fairly slow kill.  Also, there are plenty of countermeasures that can be taken as the negative levels are stacking up. *




Like what?  During an encounter, there aren't a whole lot of things someone can do about it.  The only thing I know that can protect against it in a pinch is Negative Energy Protection, which isn't usually a top choice of spellcasters to memorize and certainly isn't available to everybody.

One concern I have is that enervation can kill so easily without a save.  It is easy to kill anything with 12 levels/HD or less with this spell in a couple of actions, even faster with haste added in.  A party with more than one sorcerer could devastate even the most powerful monsters with this one spell.

Personally, I advocate a Fortitude save to negate for Enervation, which keeps it balanced.


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## Anubis (Sep 24, 2002)

*Re: my muck up initiative*



			
				ZR said:
			
		

> *I think this spell is an example of how people complicate things for no reason .
> 
> people play on and continue with initiative as normal. You deal with the saves on each char's action through to the caster action. Anyone in the barrier at that point takes auto damage at the start of there action from then on.
> 
> ...




Doing it that way makes the spell far more powerful than it's supposed to be.  I would play it by the book.

By the book:

If you're in the area *when the spell is cast*, Reflex save to escape the area.  If you enter the area any time after the casting for any reason, you take full damage and get no save whatsoever.


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## Anubis (Sep 24, 2002)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *
> Your groups sorceress might not have it but blade barrier and slow fog is just nasty.  Those in slow fog move at 1/10th thier movement,
> *




What is Slow Fog?

If that is another Forgotten Realms spell, then your argument is invalid, mainly because EVERYTHING in Forgotten Realms is unbalanced.

Then again, why would this Slow Fog reducing your movement do anything regarding a Blade Barrier?  Does the spell negate Reflex saves or something?  If it doesn't, then the spell works as normal, and regardless of Slow Fog, you get a Reflex save to avoid all damage if you're in the casting area.


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 24, 2002)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Like what?  During an encounter, there aren't a whole lot of things someone can do about it.  The only thing I know that can protect against it in a pinch is Negative Energy Protection, which isn't usually a top choice of spellcasters to memorize and certainly isn't available to everybody.
> 
> ...




I'm not sure I agree with that. I defiently think fort negates is too much of a limiter though I have been bouncing aorund the idea of fort save for 1/2.  1-4 negative levels is usually far from killing someone, sure multiple shots might mean death no save, but it isn't insant death, heck it's effects are less than a simple hold spell, so it shouldn't be save negates like a actually save or die spell.   

Also I think people overlook how much being a ranged touch attack limits things, with a wizards bab even an AC of 10 isn't guarenteed, and if the foe has any deflection, dex, dodge etc bonuses to ac and the touch ac is 15 or higher it actually becomes a hard shot to make for a wizard. 

 Further more once you are talking multiple spells, then you have to ask what are the odds of anyone saving 3 times in row even in their good saves, so is this actually more potent than a real save or die.  Or how much damage could someone dish out with 3 or 4 spells of the same level, is that in the instant death range.  Heck a double mepowered Magic missile cast 3 times would to on average 102 points of damage, that is instant death for virtually all 12 HD creatures that don't have cons like a dragons.  And for enervation do take out a 12 HD creature in 3 shots you'd have to hit all 3 times and roll max all 3 times.  The average to take out a 12hd creature would be 5 shots with enevation.  5 double empowere Magic missiles would do on average 170 points of damage.  So I just don't think a save to negates is needed.  I do think it might need a save for 1/2 because it is avery potent 4th level spell as is.


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 24, 2002)

Anubis said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What is Slow Fog?
> 
> ...




slow fog is a PH spell, and dropping your move down to around 3 feet generally prevents you from leaving the area, and the reflex save to negate is if you haul butt out of the area of effect.  It isn't like a fireball save where you save for 1/2 and stay in the same spot, it is if you make your save you can avoid damage if you leav the area of effect as soon as you get a chance to move.  If you stay in the area making you reflex save means nothing.


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## HeavyG (Sep 24, 2002)

It's called Solid Fog, btw. 



			
				Anubis said:
			
		

> *If that is another Forgotten Realms spell, then your argument is invalid, mainly because EVERYTHING in Forgotten Realms is unbalanced.*




Wow.  _Everything_ ?  That must have required some pretty mad playtesting to make _everything_ unbalanced.


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## Shard O'Glase (Sep 24, 2002)

HeavyG said:
			
		

> *It's called Solid Fog, btw.
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.  Everything ?  That must have required some pretty mad playtesting to make everything unbalanced.  *




Gah forgot the name.


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