# Going crazy with Limited Wish



## Philip (Mar 10, 2004)

Hello all,

Do you have any good suggestions for using limited wish? I think limited wish is a spell any self-respecting wizard should have prepared. It can deliver the right spell exactly when you need it, and often at a better speed than the duplicated spell. For example:

Cleric-in-a-pinch
raise dead, death ward, neutralize poison, cure critical wounds, remove disease, freedom of movement, atonement, hallow, restoration.

More speed
atonement, break enchantment, hallow, guards and wards

Combat wizard
righteous might, holy sword, song of discord

Weird uses
awaken, commune, permanency, valiant steed (from Book of Exalted Deeds), forbidden speech (Book of Vile Darkness)

What other spells would be deliver weird but benificial results when duplicated with limited wish?


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## Rashak Mani (Mar 11, 2004)

Check out some Druid and Bard spells... real wierd spells you can do too.

Limited Wish is good for Sorcerors too.


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## Krafen (Mar 11, 2004)

_Quench_ is a great Druid spell to use on those [fire] creatures. There is no defense against it.


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## Augurian (Mar 11, 2004)

Druid spells: Barkskin, Call Lightning, Stone Shape, Water Breathing, Air Walk, Control Water, Flame Strike, Call Lighting Storm.
Bard spells: Enthrall, Glibness, Legend Lore, Modify Memory, Rainbow Pattern, Dream, Song of Discord.
Just picked some from the PHB... there should be loads more in other sources too. Limited wish it really nice if you just do some creative stuff with it too.


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## Trainz (Mar 11, 2004)

_Limited Wish _costs 300 xp to cast.


No thanks.


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## svwilson (Mar 11, 2004)

My conjureror was handicapped when he summoned creatures that he couldn't talk to.  I had a friend cast Tounges on him, then used Limited Wish to duplicate Permanancy.  Then we did the same thing with Comprehend Languages.  Now my party never has a problem communicating or deciphering text.  

Best 600xp I ever spent.  Unless you count the various heals, restorations, and revivifications I've done too.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 11, 2004)

svwilson said:
			
		

> My conjureror was handicapped when he summoned creatures that he couldn't talk to.  I had a friend cast Tounges on him, then used Limited Wish to duplicate Permanancy.  Then we did the same thing with Comprehend Languages.  Now my party never has a problem communicating or deciphering text.
> 
> Best 600xp I ever spent.  Unless you count the various heals, restorations, and revivifications I've done too.




It should have been more than 600xp - limited wish costs 300xp or the xp cost of the spell it duplicates if higher... permanent tongues and permanent comprehend languages both have a higher xp cost to cast IIRC.


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## Al (Mar 11, 2004)

Remember that Limited Wish can emulate Heal, as Heal is a 5th level adept spell.  It's slightly cheesy, but perfectly legit!


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## Li Shenron (Mar 11, 2004)

Al said:
			
		

> Remember that Limited Wish can emulate Heal, as Heal is a 5th level adept spell.  It's slightly cheesy, but perfectly legit!




I wouldn't say that it's terribly cheesy   It still "costs" one spell to learn and XP to cast. _Miracle_ instead is definitely camembert!


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## Rashak Mani (Mar 11, 2004)

Al said:
			
		

> Remember that Limited Wish can emulate Heal, as Heal is a 5th level adept spell.  It's slightly cheesy, but perfectly legit!




   Wow ! Nice one... I hadn't thought of the Adepts spell list...


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## Black Knight Irios (Mar 11, 2004)

There is even more you can get:
Holy Sword: 4th LVL Paladin Spell, having at level 11 a +5 holy weapon is a fine thing.
Look through all PCs that have an own spelllist probably they have spells you can't cast normally.

Righteous Might CLR 5
Divine Power CLR 4
both are pretty fine as well.


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## Thanee (Mar 11, 2004)

How about _persistent_ Divine Favor - that's a 5th level spell as well!

Bye
Thanee


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## RigaMortus (Mar 11, 2004)

Could you emulate psionic powers with Limited Wish?  I'd say yes.  I think they'd duplicate the effect of a Psionic power, but be considered an arcane spell when doing so.


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 11, 2004)

Good thread by the way, there are some options here I'd not thought of.

Cheers


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## CyberSpyder (Mar 11, 2004)

svwilson said:
			
		

> My conjureror was handicapped when he summoned creatures that he couldn't talk to.  I had a friend cast Tounges on him, then used Limited Wish to duplicate Permanancy.  Then we did the same thing with Comprehend Languages.  Now my party never has a problem communicating or deciphering text.
> 
> Best 600xp I ever spent.  Unless you count the various heals, restorations, and revivifications I've done too.



It would have cost you more than that...but also, there's no need to do both Comprehend Languages and Tongues.  The effects of Comprehend Languages are already included in Tongues.


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## Epametheus (Mar 11, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> _Limited Wish _costs 300 xp to cast.
> 
> 
> No thanks.




The XP award for victory is usually significantly higher than 300 XP at those levels, so the exchange works out pretty well.

"The next hit made by (character X) will automatically threaten" is a nasty one that we've used before; the single most damaging blow we've ever recorded in a campaign was the result of that + True Strike + Assassin Senses (from Relics and Rituals; gives +1 to threat range and multiplier) + Power Attack + a half-dragon fighter with a Mercurial Greatsword.  Spending 300 XP to kill the BBEG of the week in a single hit wasn't a bad deal at all.


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## svwilson (Mar 11, 2004)

CyberSpyder said:
			
		

> It would have cost you more than that...but also, there's no need to do both Comprehend Languages and Tongues.  The effects of Comprehend Languages are already included in Tongues.




You're right about the XP cost, but Tounges says "allows you to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature."  I realize "understand" could conceivably include literacy (which Comp Lang does), but the rest of the description only discusses conversing with creatures, so we understood it not to include literacy.

I hoped you were right, though -- I'd like my XP back!


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## Otterscrubber (Mar 11, 2004)

I've found limited wish to be a must have for sorcerers.  It gives them the versatility they need to help round out their otherwise often predictable spell selections.  A BBEG may know what you can do but Limited Wish will always keep them on their toes.

Sure it costs 300xp, but that really isn't that much when the alternative is TPK.  Death Ward gets used most often in our campaigns as we don't have a cleric, but its great for also casting Legend Lore or Analyze Dweomer when needed.  AD is a great spell that lets you, and others, instantly see any and all protective spells up on a single creature.  Really helps to cast that on the rogue, have him scout the enemy lair looking for magical traps and protections on the BBEG and then act accordingly.


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## Philip (Mar 11, 2004)

Thanx for the suggestions. Quench is indeed a good one, especially as the target gets no save. I totally missed the Heal thing, I hadn't thought of the Adept's spell list as well. 

The XP cost is manageable, I wouldn't use the Limited Wish ALL the time, just when you really need it. It's not a good first 7th lvl spell for a Sorcerer to take.

I think it would just be really cool to use it to cast Guards and Wards on the enemy's lair to cover the party's retreat when we get in over our heads.   

Or to instantly create a Hallow with a Dispel Magic tied to it inside the tower of the evil enemy wizard's guild (for a few 1,000 gp. extra).

I was thinking along the lines of unexpected and fun effects, not unbalancing and overpowering ones.

The Persistent spell feat is a bit cheesy, IMO. But it got me thinking, I always assumed limited wish does not allow duplication of metamagicked spells, even if they fall within the level limitations of the limited wish. Otherwise it means you can, for example, use Energy Affinity to create a Chain Acid, Cold Strike or otherwise, as required. Any opinions?


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## Falling Icicle (Mar 11, 2004)

Philip said:
			
		

> The Persistent spell feat is a bit cheesy, IMO. But it got me thinking, I always assumed limited wish does not allow duplication of metamagicked spells, even if they fall within the level limitations of the limited wish. Otherwise it means you can, for example, use Energy Affinity to create a Chain Acid, Cold Strike or otherwise, as required. Any opinions?




I think it should be able to do that. Remember that it can duplicate ANY spell of lower levels, even if the spell isn't in a published book or has been researched by somebody yet. There is no reason you couldn't design a Chain Acid, Cold Strike, or Persistent Divine Favor spell. In fact, spells with metamagics designed into them are exactly what Chain Lightning and Delayed Blast Fireball are! This option has even been recommended by the designers as a way to give Sorcerers Quickened spells. They can simply learn Quickened Fireball as a 7th level spell, for example. Of course, this means that the metamagic is a permanent part of the spell. But since such spells can and do exist, Limited Wish, Wish, and the cheesy Miracle can duplicate such spells if they are the right level.

[EDIT] P.S. Thank you so much for pointing out the Heal spell in the Adept spell list! I had never given that any thought. Looks like my DM is in for a few surprises!


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## mhd (Mar 11, 2004)

Philip said:
			
		

> The Persistent spell feat is a bit cheesy, IMO. But it got me thinking, I always assumed limited wish does not allow duplication of metamagicked spells, even if they fall within the level limitations of the limited wish. Otherwise it means you can, for example, use Energy Affinity to create a Chain Acid, Cold Strike or otherwise, as required. Any opinions?




Thought that first, too. After all, a metamagiced spell is still a spell of its original level, it just uses a _slot_ of a higher level. But then, Limited Wish isn't limited to straight spells, allows to produce similar _effects_ in line with the power level of the aforementioned spells.

Spells are just the easiest way for the DM to judge the effectiveness of the LW, if you come up with an effect on your own, the DM has to judge it, you might have to negotiate about it, etc. If you just say "I want an effect equivalent to spell blah", no problem.

Although nothing beats a nice, original stroke of genius. The easiest way of immediately  getting back your 300 XP


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## Black Knight Irios (Mar 11, 2004)

Allowing spells with metamagic feats attached to them, I think, is not a real problem, as long as you don't say that the original spell level counts not it's metamagical altered one, same rules as with item creation. If they want to have an empowered fireball they can have it.


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## Otterscrubber (Mar 12, 2004)

I think that creating spells with metamagic feats built into them would totally negate the purpose of getting feats in the first place.  Unless you made it at least one level higher or something else.  Otherwise you have replaced feats entirely, all it takes is gold and some time for a wizard to create the spell.  If you have a 7th level quickened fireball in your spellbook, isn't that the exact same thing as having the quickened feat, except you didn't have to use a feat to get it?

Sure people will say that with the feat you can apply it to every spell, not just one or two, but honestly there are probably only a few spells that a wizard is going ot quicken on a regular basis anyway so it's a bit of a wash if you ask me.  It's up to the DM to set the level for any spells created in his/her campaign but this sounds broken to me.

Sorry for the interruption, now back to our regularly scheduled thread....


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## Krafen (Mar 12, 2004)

Krafen said:
			
		

> _Quench_ is a great Druid spell to use on those [fire] creatures. There is no defense against it.




It has been pointed out to me that this is incorrect. _Quench_ only damages *elemental (fire)* creatures. I believe this is a change from 3.0 I missed.


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## mhd (Mar 12, 2004)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> I think that creating spells with metamagic feats built into them would totally negate the purpose of getting feats in the first place. Unless you made it at least one level higher or something else. Otherwise you have replaced feats entirely, all it takes is gold and some time for a wizard to create the spell. If you have a 7th level quickened fireball in your spellbook, isn't that the exact same thing as having the quickened feat, except you didn't have to use a feat to get it?




We're not talking about _creating_ spells with built-in metamagic, just using them with a Limited Wish. Wishing for an empowered fireball would be a spell of third level, but a spell effect of fifth level, thus well within the allowance for sorcerer/wizard spells of up to 6th level.

The XP penalty should be enough to grant this as an exception to the rule. I agree that most metamagic/spell combinations shouldn't be allowed for spells. There's no existing spell I know that does 1.5 times caster level d6 damage, so _Bob's Empowered Fireball _seems without precedent. There's no spell without casting time either, so anything inherently Quickened is out of line, too.

But I digress, it's basically about the Limited Wish, which is able to create _effects_ in line with Wizard 6th level, 5th level something else, so hey, why not?


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## Black Knight Irios (Mar 12, 2004)

> There's no spell without casting time either, so anything inherently Quickened is out of line, too.




Am I right if I assume you would not allow lets say a 7th level spell that is as fireball but with a casting time of a free action. I wouldn't understand these spells are already out there.
1st Featherfall, a quickened 1st lvl spell, that can be cast even out of your turn
2nd Scincilating Sphere [MoF], a 3rd lvl spell same as fireball but lightning damage, energy substitution already applied
3rd Delay Blast Fireball, higher damage cap than fireball, but there is a metamagic feat called Delay Spell
...maybe there are more, maybe not

So why disallow such spells too be created, if they are already out there and no one bothers? -This is getting Off-Topic.


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## mhd (Mar 12, 2004)

> Am I right if I assume you would not allow lets say a 7th level spell that is as fireball but with a casting time of a free action. I wouldn't understand these spells are already out there.
> 1st Featherfall, a quickened 1st lvl spell, that can be cast even out of your turn






Call it personal bias, but I think there's a difference between a purely defensive spell like feather fall and a quickened fireball. I'd always allow more leeway for defensive spells than for offensive ones. Featherfall just prevents fall from damaging the caster, not really the realm of powergaming. There shouldn't be a need for a wizard to be able to cast contingency to do that much...



> 2nd Scincilating Sphere [MoF], a 3rd lvl spell same as fireball but lightning damage, energy substitution already applied




Yeah, one of the most boring designs ever. I mean, from the pure damage aspects there's no difference between Fireball and Lightning Bolt, too. But at least they have a different appearance/area of effect, even though the Bolt lost it's rebound ability...

But yeah, Energy Substitution is probably the easiest feat to justify. After all, there are "Orbs" for everything... And why should your great race of arctic elves all learn fireballs and then substitute it, instead of learning ice balls straight away?



> 3rd Delay Blast Fireball, higher damage cap than fireball, but there is a metamagic feat called Delay Spell
> ...maybe there are more, maybe not




Higher damage cap is different from, let's say 1.5 x caster level, I haven't seen the latter in a normal spell yet. Personally, I think a fireball with a little bit more damage and an added delay effect is different enough from a normal fireball to justify a spell of its own. And don't forget that it existed way before anyone thought about metamagic feats 



> So why disallow such spells too be created, if they are already out there and no one bothers?




I'd disagree that there are that many out there who completely mirror metamagiced spells. Mostly they add their own twist to the mix. Which is just the grain of sand they need to be justified. Magic spells should have a mythic element, not just be plainly built from formulas. (cf. free-form magic systems)

Some metamagic feats are worse than others. Energy substitution borders on the actually usable, though I still think for electricity a line is more evocative than a ball, for fire it's the other way round...

But even quickened spells could be justified, with some additional flavor. What about "Ottos Orbiting Orb of Obliteration", which creates a ball of fire circling around your head and can be commanded to seek a target as a free action? Not quite as powerful as quicken (probably duration 1/minute/level + able to dispel it), but at least it has some of it's blandness removed.

And yeah, we're really getting off-topic. Of course, you could (limited) wish for one of those spells to appear in your spell book, couldn't you?


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## andargor (Mar 12, 2004)

Don't forget that you can use _Limited Wish_ with Scribe Scroll to learn more Arcane spells...

Andargor


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## Philip (Mar 12, 2004)

andargor said:
			
		

> Don't forget that you can use _Limited Wish_ with Scribe Scroll to learn more Arcane spells...
> 
> Andargor




How, the DMG says you have to 'prepared' the spell which is to be scribed. Duplicating a spell with Limited Wish is hardly the same.


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## andargor (Mar 12, 2004)

Philip said:
			
		

> How, the DMG says you have to 'prepared' the spell which is to be scribed. Duplicating a spell with Limited Wish is hardly the same.




It depends on your interpretation of this:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.




The "produces the desired spell effect" may be interpreted as allowing _Limited Wish_ to create the "spell effect" to be scribed. You could also use a Wand, etc.

Andargor


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