# A semi-brief history of D&D and some other RPGs: 1980-1989



## TerraDave (Mar 29, 2011)

*1985*

 King Arthur Pendragon    by Stafford is released by Chaosium. The first truly Arthurian RPG, the game uses elements of Chaosium’s BRP system combined with innovative systems for character personality traits and passions and dynastic campaigns that can span many years. It has no orcs or fireballs, Picts are optional. 





The trend towards licensed games continues with  DC Heroes    by Gordon published by Mayfair,  Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles    and other Strangeness by Wujcik published by Palladium,  Judge Dread    by Priestly published by Games Workshop, and  The Doctor Who Role Playing Game    by Wheeler et al published by FASA. TMNT is particular popular, but is undermined by the later television show, which makes the Turtles too cute and undermines the games appeal to teenagers. 

The large number of fantasy RPGs also continues to grow with  Fantasy Hero    by Peterson with McDonald released by Hero Games,  Atlantis/The Arcanum/Talislanta    by Sechi and Taylor from Bard Games, and  Skyrealms of Jorune    by Lekers, Teves, and Lekers from Sky Realms Publishing. The last is entirely elf free. 





TSR also releases more licensed products with the  Conan Roleplaying Game    by Cook, combat heavy and skill based and supported by 3 modules and  Lankhmar, City of Adventures   , by Nesmith, Niles, and Rolston, a campaign setting for the AD&D game set in Fritz Lieber’s Newhon city. 

 Dungeons & Dragons Master Set     by Gygax and Mentzer released by TSR. One of a number of products that will have Gygax’s name on it in ‘85, the set extends the Mentzer edited version of the game to level 36. It introduces rules for weapon mastery to D&D and describes how to manage high level parties and the small empires they may possess. 

TSR publishes three AD&D hardbacks:  Unearthed Arcana    and  Legends and Lore  are composed primarily of previously published material. Arcana by Gygax is mostly taken from earlier Dragon articles and includes the Barbarian, Cavalier, Thief-Acrobat, an incredibly generous way of generating ability scores, non-human deities and a description of all those pole-arms.  Lore is a repacking of the later printings of Deities and Demigods, which had already removed the Cthulhu and Elric/Melnibonean mythi. The rational is that changing the name would help appease the religious right, one of the first concessions to the BADD crowd. 







 Oriental Adventures has Gygax’s name on it, was supposed to be written by François Marcela-Froideval, but is actually written by David “Zeb” Cook. It includes new classes, races, spells and systems for martial arts. It also introduces non-weapon proficiencies, mostly non-adventuring skills with a roll under ability score mechanic, to AD&D.  As the first AD&D products with player oriented content since the PHB, OA and Arcana are some of the best selling products in recent years. 

 Battlesystem     by Niles with Winter is released by TSR. Bringing (A)D&D back to its miniature warfare roots, this big box set has rules and scenarios for mass battles and hundreds of counters along with a mini painting guide and fold up 3-D terrain. Designed to allow standard monsters, characters, spells, and magic items to be used in big battles, results are mixed. 






Twenty adventure modules are released for the two versions of D&D by TSR. This includes several more in the Dragonlance saga (DL 6-DL 10).   T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil    by Gygax and Mentzer, which includes the long released Village of Homlett and its long anticipated sequel, is the first “super adventure” for D&D and the largest dungeon yet released for it. Gygax’s  WG6 Ilse of the Ape  is a King Kong inspired adventure first used in his Castle Greyhawk campaign. In  H1 Bloodstone Pass    , by Niles and Dobson, the party defends a town from attack using the Battlesystem. Dobson’s  X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield   also uses Battlesystem and the War Machine from the Companion Set.  X9The Savage Coast  by  Rasmussen, Rasmussen, and Gray introduce a new region to the D&D known world. 

Inspired by the success of the Dragonlance novels (but with a style much closer to the pulp fantasy that inspired D&D) Gygax’s “Gord the Rogue” debuts in a short story in the special 100th issue of Dragon Magazine. Gord appears in novel form shortly thereafter in  Saga of Old City    . 

A report on the CBS television program 60 Minutes highlights the potential “link” between D&D and teenage murder and suicide.  Patricia Pulling and Gary Gygax are both included, with Pulling arguably appearing more sympathetic. 		

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YebKDwXwmX8&playnext=1&list=PL0D54342ED1A24622[/ame]

It is estimated if 3-4 million people play D&D and other TSR RPGs. Strong sales of about $30 million stave off bankruptcy for TSR. 

Perhaps in retaliation for removing Kevin as CEO, the Blume brothers sell their controlling stake in TSR to Loraine Williams. Gygax fights the move in court. After losing the suite, Gygax is removed as President and Chairmen by the TSR board, and Williams takes full control. He leaves TSR at the end of the year. More lawsuits follow. 

*1986*

 GURPS Basic Set     by Jackson (of Texas) with Creede and Lambard published by Steve Jackson Game. Descended from the The Fantasy Trip and Jackson’s minigames from the 70’s, the Generic Universal Role-playing System is a flexible implementation of the now popular point buy/advantage-disadvantage/skill based RPG. Capable of varying levels of complexity—from medium to very high—the system becomes known in part for its many supplements that often include substantial non-mechanical information and support play across a range of genres, with or without the GURPS rules.  

 Ghostbusters   by Peterson and Willis with Stafford published by West End Games. Based on the movie, Ghostbusters  is innovative and influential, if not a huge commercial hit. With relatively simple,  action oriented rules, Ghostbusters introduces both the dice pool and a “roll high” universal check: the player gets a number of dice equal to their score in a trait (ability) or talent (skill, based on a trait), rolls them, and adds together. If the total exceeds a difficulty number, it’s a success. This would evolve into the “D6 system” used in other West End games.  







The hot trend of giant fighting robots spawns the official Battletech tie in, FASA’s  Mechwarrior    , very much an adjunct to the popular board/minis game. Palladium releases  Robotech     by Siembieda; based on the Japanese cartoon (a.k.a Macross) it uses Palladium’s standard class and level approach. 

 Warhammer Fantasy Role Play     by Halliwell et al published by Games Workshop. Set in the same universe as the minis game, this extensive and detailed RPG takes a grim, dangerous, and British approach to fantasy.  Its career system allows a ratcatcher to someday become a giant slayer, assuming he can live that long. 






 Dungeons and Dragons Immortals Set     by Mentzer published by TSR. The final piece of the Moldvay/Cook/Mentzer version of D&D allows the characters to ascend to godlike beings. In many ways a new RPG were the characters are overseen by even more powerful and established divine beings, in a somewhat dry and abstract megaverse. 

 The Dungeoneer’s Survival Guide     by Niles and  the Wilderness Survival Guide     by Mohan are published by TSR for AD&D. These include non-weapon proficiencies, and adds more fiddly subsystems to AD&D. In spite of the DSG’s Ravenloft inspired 3D mapping tips, they are are some of the worst selling AD&D hardbacks, and are available at deep discount for years to come. 

TSR releases 25 modules for its two D&Ds. These include  DA1 Adventures in Blackmoor     and  DA2 Temple of the Frog   . Coauthored by Dave Arnenson (with David Ritchie) and based on the D&D co-creator’s original Blackmoor campaign setting;  Arneson had done the project at Gygax’s urging, when the later was still in charge.  






Oriental Adventures  OA1 Swords of the Daimyo    and  OA2 Night of the Seven Swords    by Cook et al, introduce the eastern land of Kara-Tur. Pulp fiction adventures include  CA1 Swords of the Undercity     by Smith, Nesmith, and Niles and  CA2 Swords of Deceit     by Bourne, Rolston, Ecca, and Dobson, each set in Lankmar and  RS1 Red Sonja Unconquered     by McCready. Sadly, they are not wildly popular. 

More Battlesystem compatible adventures include H2  The Mines of Bloodstone     by Dobson and Niles and two of the years three Dragonlance modules  DL12 Dragons of Faith     by Johnson and Heard and  DL14 Dragons of Triumph     by Niles.  DL 11 Dragons of Glory     is not technically an adventure, but a wargame set in Krynn. 

In  IM1 The Immortal Storm     by Mentzer, junior gods face various test and, well, a powerful storm that takes them to a plane of musical notes and staves and, as the cosmos is at stake, New York and Chicago. 






 I10 Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill    , by Hickman, Hickman, Cook, Grub, Johnson, AND Niles is a disappointing sequel to the classic. Wilderness and town adventure  B10 Night’s Dark Terror     by Bambra, Morris, and Gallagher is considered one of the best of recent years.  

*1987*

In the back of Dragon 117 (January 1987), at the end of multi-contributor column, David “Zeb” Cook mentions that work has started on the second edition of AD&D. In Dragon a few months later, Gygax, who has not appeared in its pages for some time, is allowed to provide a final column were he notes his leaving TSR and the creation of New Infinities Productions. 

 Ars Magica     by Tweet and Hagen is published by Lions Rampant. Players are powerful wizards and their retainers in a mythical 13th century France. Magica includes innovations from games like Ghost Busters and Pendragon, and some major ones of its own. In addition to a well presented and coherent, near historical setting, the game includes a simpler, standard “roll high” check with a single die; a highly flexible magic system with spells built up from underlying elements; multiyear campaigns with rules for seasons, spell and magic item research, and the wizards home base (covenants); and the possibility of troupe style play with players sharing game mastering duties. The idea of sharing “story control” is also found in Ramparts first publication,  Whimsy Cards , with allow the player to influence the plot beyond his characters direct control. 






 Star Wars     by Costikyan with Smith and Rolston published by West End Games. Fast paced and action oriented, Star Wars uses the D6 system prototyped in Ghost Busters. Includes rules for making droids and very, very powerful force users. As with FASA’s Star Trek, the 120+ supplements published for the game over the coming years will become an important source of Star Wars lore. 

 Cyborg Commando     by Gygax, Mentzer, and Mohan published by New Infinities Productions. Players are cyborgs defending Earth from alien invaders in 2035. Gygax would bring Mentzer and Mohan with him from TSR (Mohan would latter return). NIPs first CEO would engage in fraud, and its second would force early printing of Cyborg, leading to a product considered by many who managed to see it to be amateurish and incomplete. NIP would shortly enter bankruptcy. 






 Forgotten Realms    by Greenwood with Grubb and Martin published by TSR. The Realms actually predate D&D, being a setting for short stories by Ed Greenwood.  Greenwood had long been a freelance contributor to Dragon, and many of his articles allude to the Realms and include its most famous denizen,  Elminster.  The initial box set still leaves substantial room for development by the DM, but the details start to be filled in, first with  F1, Waterdeep and the North    , and  FR2, Monshae     (by Niles and originally a separate product). The “Festhalls” on some Realms maps are called something else in Greenwood’s campaign. 

TSR also releases the first D&D hardback for a campaign setting,  Dragonlance Adventures    , by Hickman and Weis.  Manual of the Planes    by Grubb is another AD&D hardback. The book goes to great lengths to make sense of AD&Ds cosmology as it has developed and includes details for the many planes of existence.






 GAZ1The Grand Duchy of Karameikos     by Allston	published by TSR for (BEMCI) D&D. Describing the part of D&D’s Known World were the Keep on the Borderlands and other classic adventures could be set, this is the first of 4 Gazetteers published this year and 13 overall. Later Gazetteers would include new rules, AD&D conversions, and, in the Orcs of Thar, a simple boardgame of warring bands of monstrous humanoids (also published in Dragon). 

20 modules are published for the two D&Ds by TSR. This includes  DA3City of the Gods     by Arneson and Ritchie, were the characters can find alien technological devices and  DA4 Duchy of Ten    , by Ritchie which gives more background on the first D&D campaign setting.  DQ1 The Shattered Statue     by Jaquay with Ritchie and Klug is one of the first set in the Realms and can also be used with the Dragonquest game (acquired when TSR bought SPI).   I12 Egg of Phoenix     by Mentzer and Jaquay, and based on 4 previous, unlinked, RPGA tournament adventures, introduces a new continent to Oerth, and includes dungeon and wilderness adventure, time travel, planer travel, slavers, elemental evil, puns and odd cultural references, “Docs Island”… 

The RPGA introduces the *Living City* in its Polyhedron newsletter and at the Gencon game fair. Ravensbluff is set in the Realms and is developed largely by fans as a single shared campaign setting.






Cook and Steve Winters begin work on second edition AD&D. This is explained as mostly a project to clean up and clarify the rules. In practice, more radical options, like eliminating character classes, or even, gods forbid, ascending AC, are considered, at least briefly.  In Dragon 118, a little more then halfway back in the magazine, in a column entitled “Who Dies”, Cook confirms that the assassin won’t be in 2nd edition, that the monk, barbarian, and cavalier, won’t be in the PHB, and bard, druid, and ranger are also suspect. Also mentioned are proficiencies/skills and a “special book devoted entirely to fighters”. He also confirms he likes paladins and asks for letters from fans.  

*1988*

 Cyberpunk     by Pondsmith et al published by R. Talsorian Games. Inspired by Blade Runner, the works of William Gibson, the Road Warrior and other near future dystopias, the game would be both topical—stealing the zeitgeist from giant fighting robots—and forward looking to the wired, angsty 90’s.  Characters are hackers—with sometimes game stopping rules for hacking—assassins, road warriors, corporate flacks, etc. Includes common game elements like the fairly elaborate—but relatively fast—development of background, skills with a common “roll high” resolution mechanic, and templates (professions in this case) instead of classes. Combat is lethal and the emphasis is on neo-noir investigation, though 1980’s action violence can also be part of the game, especially if pcs have armor or cybernetics. 






Lighter toned games include TSRs’  Rocky and Bullwinkle   , an “RPG” that doesn’t have many rules, but does have hand puppets, and  Space: 1889     by Chadwick from GDW, in which the characters are British Imperialist exploring other planets—inhabited of course—in Ether Flyers. 

 The City System    by Grubb and Greenwood published by TSR. The box set provides ever greater detail on Waterdeep, with 11 or so maps. 

 Greyhawk Adventures    by Ward et al published by TSR. The first major post Gygax work on Greyhawk, it is also the thirteenth and final book for first edition AD&D. Based on hundreds of letter Jim Ward solicited from the public and nominally meant to transition to second edition, it would include rules for level 0 characters. It does not include the word “gygax”. 

TSR releases only a handful of adventure modules. One of these would be the other Greyhawk product:  WG7 Castle Greyhawk. While it has the “WG” code shared with various Gygax penned adventures, this is not his Castle, the long anticipated first dungeon for D&D. While some of its related eleven levels are done by prominent designers—Steve Perrin, Paul Jaquay--WG7 is a spoof adventure and references Star Trek, Col. Sanders, the Pillsbury Doughboy, the Temple of Really Bad Dead Things…  

Speaking of which,  H4, The Throne of Bloodstone    , by Niles and Dobson, allows really high level characters to enter the abyss and fight Orcus.  FRC1 Ruins of Adventure     by Breault, Cook,Ward, and Winter ties into the first (A)D&D computer game…






 Pool of Radiance     published by SSI. The “Gold Box” game allows the player to create a party of AD&D characters and explore around the Realms city of Phlan. This would become the model for a number of AD&D games, and characters could be created in one Gold Box game and used in another. 

Drizzt Do’Urden, the duel scimitar wielding drow ranger (based on Unearthed Arcana), makes his debut in Bob Salvatore’s  The Crystal Shard    . Drizzt will feature in many, many books to come.  






*1989*

*Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2nd Edition* hits the shelves with new  Players Handbook     and  Dungeon Master Guide  , both by Cook with Winters and Pickens. Consistent with Cooks ‘87 column, there are no monks, assassins, cavaliers, or barbarians, or half orcs for that matter  in the new PHB. The bard is now a standard class, the ranger has been substantially revised into a light armor wearing duel wielder (this is not a coincidence) with a single favored enemy, the druid is a kind of specialty priest, and the illusionist a kind of specialty wizard. Wizards come out well, now having access to all illusionist spells and many of those from Unearthed Arcana. Clerics also do well in the spell department, though not quite as well as some think (clerics don’t get access to all of the spells in the “priest” list, which include  druid spells). Paladins are still there. 

As are level and class limits for demi-humans, odd pole-arms (which the new PHB says are not very good weapons), THAC0—introduced in later first edition as  an alternative to combat tables, various not entirely compatible ways to sneak, and pretty everything and more needed to keep 2nd Edition backwards compatible. A small number of the more baroque elements are removed or simplified. The PHB also introduces a primitive firearm, the arquebus, with its own special mechanics, and makes a nod to non-cleric specialty priests, but provides little detail on how these should work.

The PHB does now have more of the game’s rules. It also has a number of non-weapon proficiencies. As is the style of skill systems at this time, these are wide ranging: cobbling, cooking, and dancing…direction sense, riding, swimming, and survival…and must takes like healing and blind fighting. These are resolved with a “roll under” d20 mechanic that joins AD&Ds “roll high” d20 mechanic(s), roll low on %s mechanic for other skills, and roll high and or various numbers on a d10 mechanics and on 2d10 mechanics. The NWP are optional, and the new rules do make clear what is an add-on, what is not, and encourages flexible use and interpretation of the rules. 






While the PHB is bigger, the DMG is smaller. It still has general DM advice, hirelings (including historical notes on mercenaries), magic items, and other bits and pieces, like horse quality! But standard encounter tables, random dungeon generation, artifacts, castle construction and sieges, and much of the original DMGs arcana are not included. It is somewhat better organized. 

Both PHB and DMG acknowledge Gygax and Arneson and confirm that these are derivative of original AD&D. While somewhat more user friendly then the originals, they are also verbose while striving to be non-offensive, hence the lack of half orcs, assassins, or some of the more interesting art from the earlier books. The tone is dry, the art mostly functional. The language is also simpler, aiming for a younger target audience.  “In spite” of these concessions, sales never approach those of the first edition PHB, which is such a strong seller it is kept in print in ‘89 even as its sequel it being rolled out. 

The PHBs safer tones extends to the monsters, which no longer include ones called demons and devils, in concession to the BADD crowd. There is no monster manual, instead a  Monstrous Compendium    . This is a binder that has each monster on a loose-leaf page. Each monster has a picture and an extensive write up. The 144 pages in MC1 are missing many obvious monsters. Conveniently MCs 2, 3, and 4 are also published. Monster stats are mostly similar, except for giants and dragons, which are given a major power boost. 

 Hero System Rulebook    by MacDonald, Roberston, and Bell published by Hero Games and Iron Crown Enterprises. Released jointly with the expansive fourth edition of  Champions, this includes identical content, except for the supers’ stuff, and becomes the basis for a new generic system. 






 Prince Valiant, the Storytelling Game, by Stafford et al published by Chaosium. Chaosium’s second Arthurian RPG, the setting is clearly grounded in the comic; with several illustrations from it and simple, novel, rules: to make a check, the sum of your relevant attribute (there are two) and skill determine the number of coins you flip (aka a coin pool) with success determined by the number of heads flipped.  The GM is called a storyteller. 

 Shadowrun by Charrette, Hume, and Dowd published by FASA. A dark, cyber, future takes a strange turn when magic returns and many people are transformed into elves, dwarves, orks, and trolls. The cyber pseudo reality of the game is called the Matrix. 






 PHBR1 The Complete Fighters Handbook    by Allston and  PHBR2 The Complete Thieves Handbook    by Nephew, Sargent, and Niles published by TSR. The solution to the “subclass” problem, these introduce “kits” that can be used to customize a class: Amazon, cavalier, swashbuckler, assassin, burglar, spy, etc. Each has some small changes to the base class, usually to the net benefit of the character taking the kit. That benefit will vary greatly across the kits in these and the 13 PHBR “Complete” books that follow. These also include a fair amount of non-mechanical information—some of which is better written and less obvious, some not so much—and other class related rules, like special combat maneuvers for fighters and rules on poison for thieves. New equipment is also included, notably the deadly great spear in PHBR1. They are strong sellers. 

 The City of Greyhawk     by Niles et al details the famous city and is joined by the third Waterdeep supplement  FR8 Cities of Mystery     by Rabe and  LC1 Gateway to Ravensbluff    , detailing the RPGAs shared Realms city. 

 Spelljammer    by Grubb published by TSR. Both a new campaign setting, and a way to link AD&D’s burgeoning campaign settings together, Spelljammer’s Aristotelian-Fantasy physics allows characters to sail around space in ships. Space faring mindflayers and beholders, star pistol wielding wizards, gith space pirates, and giant space hamsters all play a prominent role.  It spawns the now requisite line of adventures, accessories, novels, and comics. 






TSR publishes 16 modules for the various D&Ds. 2 for Basic, 2 for Oriental Adventures, 3 for Dragonlance, 4 for the Realms, and 5 for a revived Greyhawk, though besides being set on Oerth, adventures like Gargoyle and Child’s Play have little in common with their Gygax penned predecessors.


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## TerraDave (Mar 30, 2011)

Now with 1983! 

The way I cut and pasted it left out that crucial year. Please go back and take a look!


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## TerraDave (Mar 30, 2011)

Comments welcome!


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## Thunderfoot (Mar 30, 2011)

Excellent work, it touches on all the moments of my early days in gaming minus two years.  (started in 78).  I remember BADD - my step-dad was a deacon in a Southern Baptist Church, so you know, we didn't have a great relationship after 1984...

Even with all that, this was a great trip down memory lane - thanks.


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## pemerton (Mar 31, 2011)

Excellent stuff. I've only one minor comment - whereas WSG and DSG non-weapon proficiencies were roll-under-ability-score (as you say), Oriental Adventures had fixed target numbers with roll-high resolution. (And some of the target numbers were ridiculously high - 18 for horseriding, for example.)


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## thedungeondelver (Mar 31, 2011)

It merits mentioning that the *WORLD OF GREYHAWK* set released in 1980 was the folio edition.  1983 saw the boxed set.  They're two similar but different products.  Pursuant to that, Gary's "home" *GREYHAWK* campaign was markedly different than what was published.  His campaign shared people and place names, but used a different map.  Darlene Pekul's map for the 1980 (and 1983) sets was made specifically for those products.


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## TerraDave (Mar 31, 2011)

I felt that "expanded" version of Gygaxes home setting was enough of a caveat for this product:






I have added something on this product (and yes, this is the one I have):


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## Ysgarran (Mar 31, 2011)

*Cthulu and Pendragon mentioned but not RuneQuest.*

You mention Cthulhu and Pendragon but no mention of RuneQuest.

There should be some mention of RuneQuest and the purchase by Avalon Hill of the RuneQuest system.

Ysgarran.


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## TerraDave (Mar 31, 2011)

Since RQ was released in the late 70's, its in the first part (see link at top). 

Since the focus is mostly on D&D, I generally don't mention other games after their release, with a very few exceptions. For example, neither Traveller 2300 nor MegaTraveller are here, but Traveller is, again in the first part.


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## TerraDave (Mar 31, 2011)

[MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION]: interesting. Of course its not "universal", so arguably Traveler, and some other games, and of course D&D, would already have some ad hoc"roll high" vs target mechanics.


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## The Shaman (Apr 2, 2011)

_Top Secret_ was originally released in 1979; the second edition was published in 1980, with some pretty minor changes.

No mention of anything by Fantasy Games Unlimited? _Bushido_ (1980 re-relasese of a Tyr Games publication from the previous year), _Villains and Vigilantes_ (revised edition 1982), _Aftermath!_ (1981), _Flashing Blades_ (1984), _Chivalry and Sorcery_ (2e 1983), _Space Opera_ (1980), and many others.


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## pawsplay (Apr 2, 2011)

Chick _tract_, not Track


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## Thunderfoot (Apr 2, 2011)

The Shaman said:


> _Top Secret_ was originally released in 1979; the second edition was published in 1980, with some pretty minor changes.
> 
> No mention of anything by Fantasy Games Unlimited? _Bushido_ (1980 re-relasese of a Tyr Games publication from the previous year), _Villains and Vigilantes_ (revised edition 1982), _Aftermath!_ (1981), _Flashing Blades_ (1984), _Chivalry and Sorcery_ (2e 1983), _Space Opera_ (1980), and many others.




Oh, good call!  I read FGU and started naming 'em off almost in the order you gave them.


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## The Shaman (Apr 2, 2011)

Thunderfoot said:


> Oh, good call!  I read FGU and started naming 'em off almost in the order you gave them.



I looked again and FGU gets mentioned for _Aftermath!_ in this thread and _Bunnies and Burrows_ in the earlier thread; I think that's pretty short-shrift. _V&V_ and _Bushido_ in particular were pretty important games in their respective genres, and _Flashing Blades_ almost always gets positive reviews from gamers even now.


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## Thunderfoot (Apr 2, 2011)

Bushido was the very first Asian inspired RPG I can remember, the next closest thing was Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness, eeesh; long before Oriental Adventures.  

I remember it so clearly not because I ever played the system, but the miniatures that were released with it.  Not until Ral Partha started sculpting the Bushido minis did they started to raise the bar of the look of their minis.  It wasn't until after these were released that I started to notice that Ral Partha and Citadel started to get minis that looked better than semi amorphous blobs of lead with pointy things that were supposed to be weapons.

(Not that minis looked bad, but after Bushido they looked better, really paving the way for the modern version of anatomically/visually correct minis.)


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## TerraDave (Apr 2, 2011)

Aftermath is there! So is at least 1 or 2 other FGU games. The rest would be in the first part. Edit: including Bushido. 

Again, not really doing later editions of non-D&D games.


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## Thunderfoot (Apr 3, 2011)

Ahso, so sorry TerraDave-san.  I now go to commit Sepiku...Hurk, arrrrghhh.


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## jmucchiello (Apr 3, 2011)

If you are going to mention Zork, you may as well include Advent, the game it is but 1/3 of released in between 1974-77. If I tried to summarize how Advent came about and became Zork I know I'd get stuff wrong. The wikipedia articles are worth reading.


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## Erik Mona (Apr 4, 2011)

I absolutely love these threads.

I think Das Schwarze Auge deserves a mention in 1984, as it became a dominant RPG in Germany and shows the international spread of tabletop RPGs beyond the English language. There probably were earlier non-English games, but this is perhaps the most influential of them.

Also, this list definitely needs it some SPAWN OF FASHAN.


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## TerraDave (Apr 4, 2011)

Joe and Erik: good stuff!

I did look up Advent, I will probably add to the first thread. For this one, I really just wanted to indicate that a whole new kind of game had spun off...

Das Schwarze Auge is certainly the non-english RPG I have heard of the most. I will probably add. As for Spawn...this raises the question of putting in other notoriously bad RPGs. Its a hard call, by the early 80's, there were already 100's of RPGs, and of course some were quite bad. And they kept and keep coming. Thankfully they have mostly been forgotten. But I guess not all have.


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## jmucchiello (Apr 4, 2011)

TerraDave said:


> I did look up Advent, I will probably add to the first thread. For this one, I really just wanted to indicate that a whole new kind of game had spun off...



I would save "a whole new kind of game" for Rogue (precursor to nethack, angbang, and the modern day dwarf fortress). The original author of Colossal Cave was not influenced by D&D. The author who turned it into Advent probably was influenced by wargaming and perhaps D&D. The Zork port was definitely influenced by D&D and RPGs in general. But you have to mention the earlier incarnations or it just looks like Infocom made a solo RPG text adventure from scratch.

Rogue of course created the roguelike game in 1980 and is heavily influenced by D&D. Dwarf Fortress is the GTA:IV of roguelike games.
Rogue: Rogue (video game) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dwarf Fortress: Dwarf Fortress - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Additionally, MUDs first came about in 1980: MUD - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Finally, probably the first graphic CRPG was Temple of Apshai in 1979 beating Akalabeth: World of Doom (precursor to Ultima) by a few months. Your call on their importance. But personally I think Rogue is more important than Zork.


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## TerraDave (Apr 4, 2011)

MUD I have! Otherwise, thanks again.


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## TerraDave (Apr 7, 2011)

I appreciate all the feedback, but given this momentous period in RPGs, I would expect a little more dicussion...

In the chance anyone reads this post, I will suggest some topics:

*The trials and tribulations of Gary Gygax
*BADD-O-Rama
*All those genres (ie military...)

Anything else that might strike you?


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## Lanefan (Apr 8, 2011)

TerraDave said:


> I appreciate all the feedback, but given this momentous period in RPGs, I would expect a little more dicussion...
> 
> In the chance anyone reads this post, I will suggest some topics:
> 
> ...



I'd hazard a guess that there's not as much discussion as there was for your first history thread (pre-1979) because more of us were around and paying attention in the 1980's and saw it all for ourselves - whether we wanted to or not - and you've pretty much got it right.

Lanefan


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## TerraDave (Apr 8, 2011)

Could be. Though that could have still kicked off "oh, I remember playing that" posts. 

And still, cyborg commando, dragonraid, tom hanks...nothing?


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## Scott_Rouse (Apr 9, 2011)

Dave is this going to be featured in a blog, wiki, or anywhere else> It's too awesome to not live somewhere else.


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## TerraDave (Apr 11, 2011)

I guess it should go to its own webpage at some point. If I had a plan, I suppose that would be it.

Edit: Though I am _sure_, more people will see it here.


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## TerraDave (Apr 14, 2011)

one....last...bump


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## Mercurius (May 11, 2011)

Great stuff, TerraDave - I'd XP you but I have to spread the love first.

One minor quibble - you seem to say that Jorune had no elves when it was actually Talislanta.

But what a stroll down memory lane! One thing that came to mind while reading through this was how much AD&D changed after Gary Gygax left. I mean, I usually think of the difference between 1E and 2E but it really seems that the tonal shift happened with Gygax's departure in late 1985.

That Cyborg Commando picture is pretty funny.

I assume Part 3 will be 1990-1999, Part 4 2000-2007, and Part 5 2008+? When can we expect those? Hopefully more quickly than one every year!


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## TerraDave (Jun 7, 2011)

[MENTION=59082]Mercurius[/MENTION] replying a month later...Talislanta, I think I always get the two confused. 

84-85 is a key shift, first with dragonlance, then with Gygax leaving. Almost all the "classics" of the era come before that. I think JM at grognardia dates the end of the "golden age" and the begining of the "silver age" to that time...

Speaking of Grognardia, he has been doing a series on the ads of dragon, all from the early 80's, some funny stuff. 

GROGNARDIA: ads of dragon


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## Mercurius (Jun 9, 2011)

I haven't checked out Grognardia in awhile - maybe I'll swing on by. 

I've always liked talking about the "ages" of RPGs and D&D in particular. I think you can make an argument that the Golden Age (of D&D) ended either in 1977 with the publication of AD&D, and thus the end of the early days of expansion and inspiration, or in 1983 with the publication of Dragonlance; or you could say the departure of Gygax in 1986; I wouldn't go later than that, though. I'd posit this scenario:

Golden Age: 1970-77 (Chainmail, development of OD&D - early innovation, archetypal development)
Silver Age: 1977-86 (separation into D&D and AD&D to Gygax's departure; the "boom days" of popularity)
Bronze Age: 1986-1997 (Gygax's departure through 2E to the dissolution of TSR)
Iron Age: 1997-1999 (early WotC years, end of 2E; gestation of 3E)
New Golden Age: 2000-03 (OGL - renewal of D&D)
Silver Age: 2003-08 (3.5 status quo and expansion)
Bronze Age: 2008-10 (early years of 4E)
Iron Age: 2010-13? (Essentials, reconfiguration of 4E, to 5E?)

You may note that the first cycle of ages lasted about 30 years while the next, I am positing, will last maybe 12 or 13...this fits with the increase of information and the prevalence of the internet.

By the way, I would say these ages are different than the "generations" of RPGs, which has more to do with the different phases of new players coming into the hobby - the early players, the true "grognards" that started in the 70s; then the "boomers" of the 80s; then the White Wolfians of the 90s; then the d20 folks, etc.


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## TerraDave (Jun 9, 2011)

Interesting....

The Age of Dawn: 1970-76 (OD&D and the rapid expansion of the hobby)
The Age of Glory: 77-85 (when we all seemed to play)
The Age of Decline: 86-92 (badd, post gygax, story overload, aging mechanics, splintering fan base)
The Age of Darkness: 93-97 (MtG, VtM, madness at TSR)
The Age of Renewel: 98-2003 (wotc, 3E, and the ogl bring it all back)
The Age of Dissolution: 2004-present (3.5, 4.0, 4Ez, edition divisions in other games, OSR, Pathfinder, self-publishing)


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## Lanefan (Jun 9, 2011)

TerraDave said:


> Interesting....
> 
> The Age of Dawn: 1970-76 (OD&D and the rapid expansion of the hobby)
> The Age of Glory: 77-85 (when we all seemed to play)
> ...



So here's the payoff question:

As the current Age of Dissolution has now lasted almost as long as the longest of any other Age and thus is due to end, *what comes next*?

Here's some options I can see - except for the first, each will have its supporters and detractors.

The Second Age of Darkness: the hobby slides beneath the waves and either goes on life support or dies entirely, killed by ongoing over-fragmentation
The Age of Silicon: the hobby goes completely (or mostly) digital, most play happens online, face-to-face play becomes rare, paper publishing ends, MMORPGs and TTRPGs merge into one
The Fractured Age: division within the hobby slows dramatically or stops but things remain fractured, rivalries between gaming communities intensify and become bitter, fistfights at GenCon
The Age of Reunification: someone puts out an umbrella system that works for most tastes and then markets the hell out of it, most gamers rally around it, other systems and publishers are either pushed to the sidelines or driven under
The Age of Independence: more and more groups design their own systems or modify what's already out there, some self-publish, sales of established games decline steeply, some game companies disappear

Lan-"I'm not sure I'd like to see any of these"-efan


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## TerraDave (Jun 9, 2011)

Right now we seem to be in the fractured age. But only as in the last six months or so.

There is still edition (civil)waring, but people have mostly tired of it. There just doing there fraction's own thing. And each camp can point to things it likes and support its getting...which keeps them in their camp.


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## Mercurius (Jun 9, 2011)

Good stuff, TerraDave, and interesting futures, Lanefan. I think the answer is "all of the above." As TerraDave said, we are in a kind of fractured age and the future is still uncertain. I would also say that we're slowing transitioning into a silicon age dominance; I can't remember which thread it was, but I was surprised at how many people said that their primary method of play was play-by-post or some variant of online playing.

I do think some kind of Reunification is possible - which has happened with a segment of the D&D community with Pathfinder, and a very small segment with the OSR. But it may be that a larger Reunification won't happen--if at all--until 5E comes out.

There is also the possibility of some unknown innovation or new game. Just as World of Darkness came out of nowhere, and then Exalted, there might be another contender just beyond the horizon that brings to life another segment of the gamer population, perhaps bringing in a new generation. 

It is interesting to note that at the small private high school I work at, the dozen or so kids that play D&D all play 3.5. This is a very small sample size obviously, and of course anecdotal, but it points to the "age of fracture" that teenagers are not playing the most recent version of the game.

In that regard, I think the only way a true Reunification occurs in the D&D community is if 5E manages to appeal to both "old" and "new" school and, at the same time, brings something new to the table (perhaps better online tools). _And, _allows for greater independence through modular, customizable game design. To put it another way, the only way to reunify such a diverse group as the D&D community is to not ask everyone to play the exact same game, and to offer a flexible capsystem that allows for customization and house ruling. Imagine a simplified core system with an online suite that allowed for modular optional rules systems and house ruling (e.g. think of a Character Builder that allows you to switch Feats on and off, to enter in new magic items and powers and feats, races and classes even).

One can dream...


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## TerraDave (Jun 13, 2011)

Its an interesting idea, but also a lot to ask for.

In theory, there could are already enough common elements in how the various games actually play, and enough campaign specificity in the differences--lethality, time spent in combat versus activities, setting, etc--that at least a bigger fraction could all be playing with the same core rules, but ya, a lot to ask for.


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