# DDI September/October Update info



## mudbunny (Oct 6, 2010)

As posted by Trevor here



> Hey all. We are currently in the process of developing a new  web-based tools system for D&D Insider which has factored into  recent content update delays. We will continue to provide D&D  Insider members with additional information as our progress develops. In  the meantime, we are back on schedule to provide members with our  regular content updates.
> 
> October 2010 Tools News
> 
> ...


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## Zaran (Oct 6, 2010)

What is this web-based tools system?


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## P1NBACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Thanks for the update. 

I'm really interested in what they mean by "web-based tools system for D&D Insider." 

Does this mean they are going to a web-based client for all the tools (including the Character Builder and Adventure Tools)? Or, is this strictly for a few new tools they are working on? 

Also, I notice the Compendium is being updated with Dark Sun data, but not the Character Builder. That's disappointing, but I'm happy they are updating something, especially with the news of an entirely new system for D&DI. 

Hmmm. This tidbit raises more questions than it seems to answer. I guess we'll find out more in time. 

So, October 12th is when this stuff is being updated? Sounds good.


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## mudbunny (Oct 6, 2010)

I am trying to gather more information on the web-based tools, like release date, what is involved, what platform the tools will be based on, etc. As soon as I get more info, I will share. If you have any questions, please feel free to post them in the thread and I will answer what i can and pass the others on to WotC. (As always, answers may or may not be forthcoming, blahblahblah)


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## OnlineDM (Oct 6, 2010)

Wow.  So, no Dark Sun and no Heroes of the Forgotten Lands in the Character Builder this month?  That's disappointing.  At least they're sharing some information now.


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## P1NBACK (Oct 6, 2010)

Oops. Double-post.


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## P1NBACK (Oct 6, 2010)

OnlineDM said:


> Wow.  So, no Dark Sun and no Heroes of the Forgotten Lands in the Character Builder this month?  That's disappointing.  At least they're sharing some information now.




Well, we don't know for certain that there won't be a second update later this month with DS and Essentials in the CB (however, that seems unlikely). 

It's funny because the original message says: 

_In the meantime, we are back on schedule to provide members with our  regular content updates._

But, how can they be back on schedule for "regular content updates" if they aren't scheduled to release Dark Sun content that came out in August?  The "regular content updates" usually meant the previous months books on the first Tuesday of the following month. I guess he means, "we'll be releasing _something _each month at our regular time..."

Just an observation.


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## Scribble (Oct 6, 2010)

My guess is:

New stuff from Dark Sun and Essentials is taking way more time to implement in the system then expected, and they probably would have missed the October deadline.

Sooo roll back the CB to what it is curently and update it with the stuff that isn't different, and release, while working on a second version for the Essentials and Darksun stuff, and release when finished.

This way they can still make the October deadline... sort of.


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## renau1g (Oct 6, 2010)

So...I'm no programmer, heck I'm barely above end user who calls tech support because they keep locking out their password type. Does this mean I must be connected to the web to use the CB? If it is, I will certainly not be a happy camper.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 6, 2010)

Interesting, looks like the CB needed a lot of new development so they have had to roll back and only add content that works with current functionality.

So, que rampant and unjustified speculation on the New Web tools.
Is CB going to become a web app? 
ditto Monster builder?
Or are hte web tooks new functionality not currently provided?
Will stuff continue to be able to function locally without a web connection?


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## AnthonyRoberson (Oct 6, 2010)

renau1g said:


> So...I'm no programmer, heck I'm barely above end user who calls tech support because they keep locking out their password type. Does this mean I must be connected to the web to use the CB? If it is, I will certainly not be a happy camper.




I bet that's EXACTLY what that means. And that sucks A$$.


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## renau1g (Oct 6, 2010)

From their perspective I guess that may cut down on the piracy of their CB updates on torrent sites.


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## Festivus (Oct 6, 2010)

I'll wait to see what unfolds, but there are a number of mac users who might do the happy dance if they do make the CB a web app.  Personally I don't care much one way or the other but I will dislike not being able to use a CB offline.  Perhaps they will offer both?


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## renau1g (Oct 6, 2010)

Yeah I'll hold off on my nerd rage until I have a bit more info () because if it means you can only access it while online, it also means that they'll likely cut you off once you stop the monthly payment gravy train /conspiracy theory


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## RigaMortus2 (Oct 6, 2010)

Darn, was hoping for Dark Sun to be in this months CB...


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## Zaran (Oct 6, 2010)

I don't see how anyone can really pirate the CB.  Giving out 5 downloads, I would think they expect us to share even if they don't officially acknowledge it.  You would still need to log onto DDI to get updates and everyone can download the free teaser version so what exactly is being pirated?


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## Markn (Oct 6, 2010)

We get an update this month - yay!  It does not have any Dark Sun or Essentials in the CB/MB tool - boo/hiss!  Announcement of new web based tools - boo/hiss (I think anyways).  Should be great for Mac Users - yay!

That about sums up my feelings to this announcement.   

I wonder if the new web based tools will also include PDF access to 4e books?  Just a thought...

Also, a little worried based on previous web based tools WotC has shown.  They were pretty crappy but I will wait for the new tools before making any judgement.


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## Markn (Oct 6, 2010)

Zaran said:


> I don't see how anyone can really pirate the CB.  Giving out 5 downloads, I would think they expect us to share even if they don't officially acknowledge it.  You would still need to log onto DDI to get updates and everyone can download the free teaser version so what exactly is being pirated?




Torrent sites provide the CB with all the updates to a given month.  Usually its a month behind but with access to that, there is no need to have a subscription ever.  It should be pointed out that this is completely illegal.

I can see a lot of lost money due to this for WotC.  Add in the fact that now Mac users can use it and WotC should see a spike in subscriptions when it launches.


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## RigaMortus2 (Oct 6, 2010)

renau1g said:


> it also means that they'll likely cut you off once you stop the monthly payment gravy train /conspiracy theory




That is exactly what I am worried about.


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## Markn (Oct 6, 2010)

A big Thank-You to WotC_Trevor for giving us some info to chew on.  This is VERY much appreciated!

Even if it raises more questions than answers...


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## renau1g (Oct 6, 2010)

Markn said:


> I wonder if the new web based tools will also include PDF access to 4e books?  Just a thought...




Maybe ebooks?


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## Jack99 (Oct 6, 2010)

A pity with no DS and Essentials, as I looking forward to streamline the options of my players. But I must admit I am intrigued about the webbased tools.


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## The Human Target (Oct 6, 2010)

No Dark Sun in CB?

Thats absolutely ridiculous.

My buddy (who purchased the DS books) would like to run a Dark Sun game, but he can't until CB is updated so that everyone has the access they need.

BOOOOOOOO!


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## DEFCON 1 (Oct 6, 2010)

renau1g said:


> ...because if it means you can only access it while online, it also means that they'll likely cut you off once you stop the monthly payment gravy train /conspiracy theory




They certainly could go the way of World of Warcraft, in that they'd have their own in-house servers which would save all of your CB characters on them.  Thus you'd only be able to access the CB if you currently have a subscription and have access to the web... but at the same time keep all your characters saved to their servers regardless whether your subscription is up-to-date.

So the same way that in WoW you can cancel your subscription for like a year, then come back later and find that all your characters are still there for you when you re-up... WotC could do the same for your CB characters.

It would certainly cut down on the number of '1-month, download, then cancel' subscriptions that they probably experience all the time.


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## Raunalyn (Oct 6, 2010)

My guess on the web tools is that it will be a way for online tracking of character and campaign information, kind of in the vein of iplay4e. Or maybe even a campaign toolset that will be used as a framework for the (alleged) future virtual tabletop. You know, things like the visualizer, etc. 

Just speculation, mind you.


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## stonegod (Oct 6, 2010)

The statement "in the process of developing a new web-based tools system" does not imply the that CB is going way or that the web tools will/will not implement CB functionality. It just states they are working on some web-based tools (which could be anything from new versions of the Flash encounter builder to a web-based CB). Far too little information at this point.


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## the Jester (Oct 6, 2010)

The Human Target said:


> No Dark Sun in CB?
> 
> Thats absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> ...




Or he could, you know, bring his books to the first session and people could use pencil and paper.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 6, 2010)

Yeah, let us (*please*) not go off all half-cocked on speculation about how WotC is going to kick our babies by not allowing you to use the CB when you're not online. "Web-based tools" could mean a lot of things. It could just mean something like an Encounter Builder like they had before. The Compendium is basically a "web-based tool." I would like to believe that WotC is intentionally designing the DDI so that each table only needs to have one subscription: it's a feature that a table of 5 players + 1 DM can sign up for about $1.50/month collectively, and I don't think they'd be in a hurry to take that from us.

I'm happy we're getting something. I really wish we'd get Dark Sun and Essentials stuff in the CB, but if it's going into the Compendium, at least it's _there_, in some capacity. I'm looking forward to the CB update that'll include them. 

'till then, I guess I'll just play the same old boring characters I'm used to.


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## im_robertb (Oct 6, 2010)

the Jester said:


> Or he could, you know, bring his books to the first session and people could use pencil and paper.




Hi. I'm a DM who prepares power cards for all of his PCs. Guess he's leaving the Dark Sun book with me each week.


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## The Human Target (Oct 6, 2010)

the Jester said:


> Or he could, you know, bring his books to the first session and people could use pencil and paper.




We play twice a month for six hours. Bringing every 4e book we have to a session to make 3rd level characters is a huge hassle and would basically waste a session. I did myself make a character for the Dark Sun game long hand, but not everyone has the time or books to do so.

But thanks for the smug response.


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## Dice4Hire (Oct 6, 2010)

im_robertb said:


> Hi. I'm a DM who prepares power cards for all of his PCs. Guess he's leaving the Dark Sun book with me each week.




Get your own?


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## AngryMojo (Oct 6, 2010)

I'm hoping for traps and terrain in the compendium.  That's still my biggest hangup about DDI.


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## Otakkun (Oct 6, 2010)

I'd be royally pissed if that were the case.


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## surfarcher (Oct 6, 2010)

Our Eladrin Sorceress might be 50km away right now but I swear I just heard her start sobbing.  I can just see her pretty little bottom lip quivering right now.


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## avin (Oct 6, 2010)

No Dark Sun? no Essentials? This is getting ridiculous Wizards... waited an extra month for what? 

L A M E.


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## im_robertb (Oct 7, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Get your own?




You're right. They should just get rid of DDI and force us all to buy more books.


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## ExploderWizard (Oct 7, 2010)

avin said:


> No Dark Sun? no Essentials? This is getting ridiculous Wizards... waited an extra month for what?
> 
> L A M E.




For them to realize how to finally get the DB stable again with current code.


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## mudlock (Oct 7, 2010)

AnthonyRoberson said:


> I bet that's EXACTLY what that means. And that sucks A$$.




Unless you're not running Windows, then it's awesome news! Unless it'll only work on IE, which would make EVERYONE angry (so that's probably what will happen


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## Kurtomatic (Oct 7, 2010)

I've guessed for a while that they'd eventually leverage their WPF codebase for a Silverlight implementation of their current client apps. That would not necessarily mean online-only, but that could be pretty likely, or it could be a hybrid WPF/Silverlight client. Silverlight would definitely solve the cross-platform problem (re: OSX).

It does also imply some kind of WotC hosted cloud storage for characters, which could be interesting.

Curiouser and curiouser.


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## JoeGKushner (Oct 7, 2010)

way too little information to do anything other than guess so I'll save it.

Glad to see some updates.

I notice that no official employee is saying that they don't legally have to update anything so they haven't lost their minds yet.


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## Pseudopsyche (Oct 7, 2010)

Festivus said:


> I'll wait to see what unfolds, but there are a number of mac users who might do the happy dance if they do make the CB a web app.  Personally I don't care much one way or the other but I will dislike not being able to use a CB offline.  Perhaps they will offer both?



Aw man, I for one would love it if all future apps were web-based.  I  just hope they are lighter weight than the main web site, which makes my iPad crawl.

If I could design monsters and encounters on my iPad or even just display them on my iPad at the table, I'd be ecstatic.

[Disclaimer: I work for Apple.]


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## kevtar (Oct 7, 2010)

*web based tools speculation*

With all of the speculation about ebooks, silverlight, etc... it will probably be a web based version of "dungeon tiles mapper" or something silly like that. I'm curious to see what happens next, and although I was disappointed about there not being DS or Essentials in CB, this little tidbit regarding "web based tools" (and the subsequent speculation) has changed my disappointment to mild bemusement.


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## UHF (Oct 7, 2010)

Before anyone lays into Wizards and their programmers they need to realize that programmers are expensive, and all the latest changes resulted in a lot of code being altered.

I for one am annoyed that this release of CB still won't have Dark Sun and Essentials.  But I'm also greatful that I don't pay 4 times as much for my DDI subscription.

On the other hand Lone Wolf character builder may have support for this before Wizards;
4th Edition - Hero Lab - Lone Wolf Development


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## Mad Hamish (Oct 7, 2010)

The Human Target said:


> No Dark Sun in CB?
> 
> Thats absolutely ridiculous.
> 
> ...




The Dark Sun information will be in the Compendium so people can check new races etc.
It'd get painful if people wanted to use a new class build but generally you should be able to get pretty close in the character build and modify things by hand on the sheet.
(Build the stats as they would end up for one of the new races, cross out and write in racial abilities & new feats etc) 

write the Theme in pen and put details on a card

It's not ideal but you're being a bit over dramatic there.


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## nightspaladin (Oct 7, 2010)

Surfarcher, where did you get that picture? i would love it for my collection of charcter pictures


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## renau1g (Oct 7, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Yeah, let us (*please*) not go off all half-cocked on speculation about how WotC is going to kick our babies by not allowing you to use the CB when you're not online.




C'mon kamikaze, it's the internets, if we ain't going off on baseless discussions about minimal information and throwing around wild speculation what are we doing? Having a rational discourse about the information that _was_ released? BWA-HA-HA!  

[MENTION=55066]Dice4Hire[/MENTION] - re: Get your own, part of the functionality of the DDI is not requiring to own each book, your fee is supposed to cover those rules. They've delayed it, and then released it in a less useful manner (in the compendium). Why should I purchase something I've already paid for? (this is rhetorical, I plan to purchase the books for their fluff)


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## drothgery (Oct 7, 2010)

Kurtomatic said:


> I've guessed for a while that they'd eventually leverage their WPF codebase for a Silverlight implementation of their current client apps. That would not necessarily mean online-only, but that could be pretty likely, or it could be a hybrid WPF/Silverlight client. Silverlight would definitely solve the cross-platform problem (re: OSX).




Pretty much. Non-Windows, non-OS X users pretty much don't exist as far as desktops and laptops go. Which just leaves the iPad for devices that aren't so small they'd have to completely redesign the UI, and there's MonoTouch for that.


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## surfarcher (Oct 7, 2010)

nightspaladin said:


> Surfarcher, where did you get that picture? i would love it for my collection of charcter pictures




I just googled "+eladrin +sorceress" at images.google.com and that one caught my eye... The player loves it too   Not sure where the original is but the full-sized one with the touched-up eyes is at http://www.compsand.com/users/rhedden/Caelynna.jpg


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## Dr_Ruminahui (Oct 7, 2010)

She really reminds of Deedlit from the old anime Legend of Loddoss... wouldn't be surprised if that was the inspiration.

That said, I can't see her lower lip quivering.


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## the Jester (Oct 7, 2010)

im_robertb said:


> Hi. I'm a DM who prepares power cards for all of his PCs. Guess he's leaving the Dark Sun book with me each week.




Perhaps the dm ought to own the campaign setting he's running?

Or perhaps it's not necessary to make new power cards for each session.



The Human Target said:


> We play twice a month for six hours. Bringing every 4e book we have to a session to make 3rd level characters is a huge hassle and would basically waste a session. I did myself make a character for the Dark Sun game long hand, but not everyone has the time or books to do so.
> 
> But thanks for the smug response.




O-kay, first off I'm not trying to be smug, but I find it hard to credit that people somehow cannot figure out how to make characters without the CB anymore. And seriously, six hours to make characters? Just how much time with the Dark Sun book do they need? Surely the group has a couple different PHs that they can share around while one guy hogs the campaign setting book for a while...?

Really, I recognize that 4e has a ton of options, but if it takes 6 hours to make a character with pen and paper, maybe the dm should have a few one-off pre-session hang-out periods with the players in order to get things ready. Don't get me wrong, I fully acknowledge that the CB is very cool and useful- but saying that the dm _can't_ start until DS is in the CB is just silly.


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## surfarcher (Oct 7, 2010)

Dr_Ruminahui said:


> She really reminds of Deedlit from the old anime Legend of Loddoss... wouldn't be surprised if that was the inspiration.



I wouldn't be surprised either.  Not one little bit.



Dr_Ruminahui said:


> That said, I can't see her lower lip quivering.



Well you wouldn't in a still


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## GMforPowergamers (Oct 7, 2010)

stonegod said:


> The statement "in the process of developing a new web-based tools system" does not imply the that CB is going way or that the web tools will/will not implement CB functionality. It just states they are working on some web-based tools (which could be anything from new versions of the Flash encounter builder to a web-based CB). Far too little information at this point.




I hope you are right, but as a long time reader of the WotC boards, this paranoia has set in this time... 

     I just have this bad feeling that nothing good is comeing...


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## Cor_Malek (Oct 7, 2010)

First off - mudbunny, thanks for update - you've been a great sport about this whole situation, especially considering rather hostile responses every now and then 

So, yeah - as far as two most critical questions raised by this:
1. will this mean online-only use?
2. will this allow Linux and Mac users to use the CB?

↓→(only of 1st was a "yes"):
3. So far, people who didn't renew DDI subscription could've still used the CB - alas didn't get the updates. Would this mean that you get access to CB only as long as you're presently a subscriber? 
4. Will there be a demo CB?

---

One makes me a happy, and one a sad panda. Bulk of my RPG games nowadays take place when I'm far outside of city-limits, and my 3G rarely has access then. Coincidentally, that's also when I kind of want to play 4e, especially because of CB - even though many people in my field played some kind of RPG's, they're often very rusty.
Thus far, I keep CB demo on my Windows install (damn you, .Net Framework!) and play with it every now and then. So for this goal, I'd like that change - with GTA's passed, CB is the only program I use on my Win install, so I could just go online for a quick character creation  Maybe even spend the 10 bucks on one time subscription, and see what's beyond the third level 

Bottom line for me: multi-platform at cost of online-only access, would for me be a good change. Alas not making me more, but less eager to join 4e. I still hope, that the answers will be: "1-no, 2-yes"


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## Shemeska (Oct 7, 2010)

P1NBACK said:


> Thanks for the update.
> 
> I'm really interested in what they mean by "web-based tools system for D&D Insider."




It's probably what Paolo Marcucci was talking about when he said that WotC would have something new for the DDI "soon". Of course that was like 3 months ago, so soon is relatively relative I suppose. What it is, I dunno. I don't know anyone on staff anymore.


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## Ktulu (Oct 7, 2010)

Shemeska said:


> It's probably what Paolo Marcucci was talking about when he said that WotC would have something new for the DDI "soon". Of course that was like 3 months ago, so soon is relatively relative I suppose. What it is, I dunno. I don't know anyone on staff anymore.




Well, one thing we've seen from WotC as of late, they don't make official announcements like that without having something concrete anymore.

Remember monster tool?  That was previewed on ddi and boom, less than two months later it was a usable product.

I'd suspect we'll see at least a preview of these new web-tools in November.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm meeting this news with guarded pessimism, for a couple of reasons.

The big one is that WotC doesn't have the greatest track record with digital offerings.  Aside from the CB and Compendium, I've found all the rest of their offerings (including the MB) to be quite buggy.  Their non-Compendium tools are particularly bad, and even the Compendium I've had issues with.  So when they say they're working on web-based tools, that doesn't fill me with the least bit of confidence.

More importantly though, from the tone of the post, it sounds as if they've decided to scrap the CB/MB completely.  Aside from the fact that I think the CB is a good tool, the very idea that they've (apparently) decided to change course this far in is yet another sign to me that WotC's digital department is experiencing serious problems.

I would very much like to be surprised by WotC.  I would love a web-based system in addition to the offline programs.  Barring that, I would love a web-based system that was as good as the current tools.  However, very little WotC has done, especially in the last year, gives me any sort of hope that this will happen.  Hence, guarded pessimism.


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## blalien (Oct 7, 2010)

I wonder if "new web-based tools system" means Game Table...  Can't wait for news updates.


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## vagabundo (Oct 7, 2010)

Web based character creation. maybe..


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## Walking Dad (Oct 7, 2010)

Anyone else not able to reach the wizards website right now?


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## Merkuri (Oct 7, 2010)

blalien said:


> I wonder if "new web-based tools system" means Game Table...  Can't wait for news updates.




I really doubt that.  The Game Table was much more than they could chew, and they'd be much smarter to work on other, smaller tools similar to the CB instead of that monster.  The Game Table really needs a dedicated software company, not just a few programmers that work for a publisher.

Besides, there are plenty of free alternatives for that out there.  I use one to play every Monday.


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## Almacov (Oct 7, 2010)

blalien said:


> I wonder if "new web-based tools system" means Game Table...  Can't wait for news updates.




The fact that tokens are a recognized and supported alternative to minis in a physical game makes the game table a less daunting goal for them to achieve. Being able to just slap a jpeg in a circle is a lot simpler than building 3D art assets, even now that all the physical minis are modelled digitally.
The graphical simplicity there means that a game table _could_ be web based.

That said, I'll be surprised if we get it any time soon.

Also, if the Character Builder winds up being online-only now, I will not be renewing my subscription.
Just putting that out there.


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## evilbob (Oct 7, 2010)

Here is my wishlist for what the "web-based system" will be:

- an online character builder that completely replaces the downloaded program
- stores character data in the cloud
- creates links to your completed sheet which can be accessed by others


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## renau1g (Oct 7, 2010)

Ktulu said:


> Well, one thing we've seen from WotC as of late, they don't make official announcements like that without having something concrete anymore.
> 
> Remember monster tool?  That was previewed on ddi and boom, less than two months later it was a usable product.




Well, MB is still in the Beta stage and hasn't seen in update in forever, which was pushed off again to focus on new shiny product. There's tons and tons of errors and bugs with it, so it's more like mostly usable. It's better than nothing, but it would be nice if they finished one product before jumping to the other.


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## Lord Ernie (Oct 7, 2010)

Almacov said:


> Also, if the Character Builder winds up being online-only now, I will not be renewing my subscription.
> Just putting that out there.



See, while I understand your reaction should it actually come to pass, I simply cannot see how you (or anybody else with this reaction) can get from "new web-based tools system" to "Oh noes, they're gonna replace the CB with online-only tools!!!!". 

There is literally nothing in the announcement that indicates this, unless you count the absence of DS and Essentials as proof. And while that is an arguable concern, there are other explanations provided for the reasons thereof that have been mentioned before.

Isn't it much more reasonable to assume that they are making _new_ tools available for us, instead of trying to copy functionality they already have to an online application, for the dubious purpose of fighting piracy or forcing us poor players to stop paying for updates only once every four months for the CB? 

While the latter would provide some revenue, it would piss off way too many of their customers, which they are well aware of; the former would give them a reasonable explanation for upping the per-month price a bit. This will of course still people off - it is change, after all, and worse, it's change that costs MONEY - but if the tools are high quality and useful, something we've seen they can pull off with the CB and the MB, they will be in a minority.


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## MrMyth (Oct 7, 2010)

Dice4Hire said:


> Get your own?




He did. He purchased a subscription to DDI, under the expectation that - based on past performance and the language used repeatedly on the website - it would have the content he required within a month of release. That did not prove to be the case, and while it is true that WotC has no guarantee of that being the case, I think being frustrated at the situation is a perfectly reasonable response to have. 

Anyway, to chime in with the other voices of reason: 
-We don't know enough about this 'web app' to make any conclusions yet, so no one should get too crazy about that yet. 
-It is definitely disheartening that, even when the update hits, it will still be missing Dark Sun and Essentials. But I'll hold out hope we'll see them sooner, rather than later - I think they are just going ahead with what they have now to ensure they have _a _release in the first half of October.


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## Lord Xtheth (Oct 7, 2010)

I hope the web-based thingie is just a website where Mac and other OS users can go and make dudes along side the character builder program thats downloaded. 
Where I play my D&D, there is no internet access, and I don't want to pay the internet more money so I can have the ability to pay WoTC more money to do the things I can do now offline for what I'm already paying the internet and WoTC


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## mudbunny (Oct 7, 2010)

Cor_Malek said:


> First off - mudbunny, thanks for update - you've been a great sport about this whole situation, especially considering rather hostile responses every now and then




The ENWorld forums are a nice change of pace from the Official forums. My thanks go out to the users and the mods.



> So, yeah - as far as two most critical questions raised by this:
> 1. will this mean online-only use?
> 2. will this allow Linux and Mac users to use the CB?




None of the answers to these are known yet. I have started poking WotC to see if I can find out what programming language (if that is even the right term) that is being used. Will it be Java, html, something else?? I don't know at all, and I know even less to hazard a guess on what they would use. I *would* be surprised if any online tools were restricted to a Win OS. At the very least, I suspect that it would be a platform that would extend to Windows and Macintosh-based operating systems.



> ↓→(only of 1st was a "yes"):
> 3. So far, people who didn't renew DDI subscription could've still used the CB - alas didn't get the updates. Would this mean that you get access to CB only as long as you're presently a subscriber?




If it is purely web-based, yes. But, I have no knowledge of what tools they are talking about.



> 4. Will there be a demo CB?




I hope so. I will add that to the list of questions, which can currently be found here. We will fire them up the line, and do what we can to get answers. (As always, no guarantee that we will be getting answers.)


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Oct 7, 2010)

*The Character Builder Jailbreak*

The current Character Builder has a major flaw in it:  pay once and get everything.  WotC tied a permanent application to a subscription based service.  

If you buy a single month subscription to DDi, you've just purchased, via the character builder, every single class, race, feat, paragon path, epic destiny, power, and magic item that has been created since 4E was released.  WotC is insane to keep this model, but they may be forced into doing just that buy their customers.  

Dungeon and Dragon magazines have the same flaw.  While they were print based, buying a subscription to the magazine would mean you got the next X number of magazines.  Buying a one month subscription to DDi means you get the entire backlog of Dungeon and Dragon magazines along with the current issue.

Now look at the compendium.  Buying a single month of DDi gets you a single month of service.  If you want ongoing access to it, you have to pay the monthly fee.  This is a much better deal for WotC.  Ongoing usage of the compendium is restricted to full subscribers.

The solution is to make the Character Builder subscription based (like WoW, you'd need to log in before you had access to it), or web-based like the compendium.


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## Kurtomatic (Oct 7, 2010)

evilbob said:


> Here is my wishlist for what the "web-based system" will be:
> 
> - an online character builder that completely replaces the downloaded program
> - stores character data in the cloud
> - creates links to your completed sheet which can be accessed by others



FYI, you can currently get 2 out of 3 at iplay4e. Plus mobile browser support to boot.


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## the Jester (Oct 7, 2010)

LightPhoenix said:


> More importantly though, from the tone of the post, it sounds as if they've decided to scrap the CB/MB completely.




Huh. I don't get this at all. The CB and MB are extremely popular tools. They are _adding something new_ to the digital offerings of DDI; I don't see how that sounds like they are scrapping the CB and MB completely. Is there something in a different thread or on the WotC boards that I missed?


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## Goonalan (Oct 7, 2010)

the Jester said:


> Perhaps the dm ought to own the campaign setting he's running?
> 
> Or perhaps it's not necessary to make new power cards for each session.
> 
> ...




I love you Jester... but I can see his point. Me and my players have been together since Feb/March of this year. None of them have any of the books, or access to CB, if I said 'Wizards' to them they'd think of Gandalf... not WOTC.

The point being I do the work, and when I've mentioned this before at Enworld, I've had many messages from many other DMs saying exactly the same thing- the players turn up and play.

And its not that I'm lazy, I work hard for my game, but I don't understand all of Dark Sun, and how I've figured things out in the past is by making a character using the CB. I think I could sit down with my players and get them to produce PCs in 4 hours- based on how long it takes them to produce characters using CB with me helping them (even then the PCs are usually with errors). Two Handed Fighters with Longswords et al- and they've been at the game for 6 months. If its second nature to you then... if you're new to it... and at an age when computers/exams/forms/writing is not your friend then its a tough ask.

And here's another confession- I don't understand the changes made by Essentials, I mean I've read it (actually not all of it- and that's nothing to do with lazy, that's real work getting in the way) but I don't have the brain space- I ask here if its vitally important but otherwise I try to just get by.

Now you could tell me to get better players- but these are the first round-the-table real people I've had to game with here in Grimsby for 5 years. The electronic tools are the best thing that has happened to D&D (alongside 4e) IMHO, and I've been about since the first Red box.

And yes, I rely on them too much, but I rely on them because without them my game is very limited, as far as DS and the Essentials rules then I just can't do it.

And the cost of the tools and the value for money is spurious, if they were $10/month I'd pay it, $20/month same, $30/month same etc.

Providing I could rely on them to keep up to date with hard copies being produced.

Other than Enworld (and similar) websites I have no one (not even my players) to ask the questions I need answers to- in truth the questions mostly disappear when I can fiddle with the Comp/CB et al and figure things out for myself.

It's not that I hate WOTC, it's not that I'm a fanboy- I just don't get (on a regular basis) how the company that produces the game that I love can continue to disappoint me, and still I want to give them my money, my time, et al.

All the arguments have been paraded here before- they knew Essentials was coming, same DS et al, they've messed up and the new info looks like a bit of smoke and mirrors. My interpretation of course but based upon my (and nobody elses) previous experiences as regards Gandalf, I mean Wizards.

Nothing I can do of course, sigh... I'm the kind of idiot that goes to sleep at night dreaming of the 4e (TM) Gaming Table... incidentally when Wizards announced the on-line game table was coming... and here's 4e by the way, then spontaneously over a dozen of my ex-players (dispersed around the country/globe) got in touch with me within a week of the video going on Youtube. 

We talked about it for an age on-line, half of them bought the 4E PHB, and after approx six months, with fewer and fewer e-mails and still no sign of the table, they all went back to their everyday lives.

The few that were left tried Maptools but... 

Anyway, my final point since the start of 4e Wizards (IMHO) have had all these great ideas et al, which have made it easier for me to get a game going, ultimately. But have still managed to somehow make it harder (IMHO) to keep up with the game. Lots of time saving on-line tools that are not quite...

Last example (promise). In our game we've-

Applied some of the Essentials but not all, because... (see above).

Postponed (again, and again) Darksun

Had real problems updating the monsters for Paragon Level in-line with the changes from MM2, MM3 etc. In truth I didn't even know the changes had happened- which I'm blaming no-one for, I've got 95% of the hard back books but  only read the things that I've needed to know. Not a massive problem I know but we've stopped playing our Paragon game (the WOTC H1 etc. Adventure Path) because it was just too easy- I'm trying to fix the problems but... time.

At presnt I have not played D&D for two weeks, in March when we started we played once/week, at one point over the summer we got up to three sessions in a week. The desire is still there but with work getting busy, and time issues, the players are still phoning and e-mailing-

Have you fixed the monsters for the next scenario- nope.

Have you got DS figured- nope.

When are we going to play again...

I've read back through what I've put- the only thing I'd change is now that I remember Becky (one of my players) didn't know who Gandalf was.

The thing is you can play D&D without being a... whatever the word is (geek/nerd/grognard), actually now that I think about in my previous group then only half of the players had access to the 4e PHB (maptools players scattered around the globe, all used CB). The group before that the same...

I feel better now... and relax.

Cheers Goonalan


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## Mika (Oct 7, 2010)

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:


> The current Character Builder has a major flaw in it:  pay once and get everything.  WotC tied a permanent application to a subscription based service.
> 
> If you buy a single month subscription to DDi, you've just purchased, via the character builder, every single class, race, feat, paragon path, epic destiny, power, and magic item that has been created since 4E was released.  WotC is insane to keep this model, but they may be forced into doing just that buy their customers.
> 
> ...




Since the first thing the Character Builder does when it starts up is check for updates, an easy way to take care of that would be to store the last time it did that, connected to the Wizards server, and got a positive response of "Yes, you are a subscriber".  When the date/time stamp on that bit of data is more than a month ago, the program would refuse to complete its initialization.  That would let users continue to use the Character Builder off-line while preventing them from continuing to run it indefinitely without a subscription.

A purely Web-based Character Builder that completely replaces the current Character Builder would be a major hassle, to say the least.


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## the Jester (Oct 7, 2010)

First of all...



Goonalan said:


> I love you Jester...




Aw shucks! 

You posted a long, well-thought-out post. Rather than responding to individual bits of it, I'll just lay out my thinking.

I'm not going to criticize anyone as lazy, either player or dm; I am going to address the actual issues with starting the game (or continuing it).

First off, you don't need to understand Essentials to run Dark Sun. You don't need to update MM2 or MM3 monsters- they work just fine, especially if you use the "quick and dirty" damage fix of doubling their static bonus, or tripling it for brutes. 

I understand having novice players, I understand wanting to use all the options, I understand not feeling like you have the 'whole thing down'. 

What I don't understand is deciding it's better to wait for an undetermined amount of time instead of just forging ahead. One of the most important rules of thumb as a dm is, _Keep the game moving._ Certainly, I'd apply the same principle here. If your players make a few mistakes on their characters when making them out of the books, so what? When CB updates to include Dark Sun, correct them. 

No DM- no game- is ever perfect. And yes, there is such a thing as "too bad of a game to be worth my time" to me. But it has to be pretty bad, and it sounds like your group is enthusiastic and committed and doesn't want to wait- I don't think you have that problem. Sounds like your group really enjoys your game.  So I would just forge ahead.

Heck, I remember the days when the whole concept of _First session, we make characters!_ was all the rage. Nobody called it a waste of a session, or at least very few did- heck, I didn't, and I'm not a fan of group character generation. 

My point is that the CB is a _bonus tool_ that you do not _need._ People played D&D just fine without it for literally DECADES. So while I understand that people get upset when the new content they want in there isn't there yet, I think it's just silly to say it MUST BE in the CB before you can use it. I mean, yeah, it makes everything easier, but that content is all in the book too. It's there, you just need to look at it. 

In the context of starting your Dark Sun game, I'm going to suggest again a series of one-offs with your players where all you do is generate their starting pcs. Or loan the book to them, one by one, so that they can do it on their own. 

Or wait for a better tool- sure, if that's what is honestly going to be best for your group. But personally, I'd rather _just start playing._ And you know what? I bet you and your players would too. I bet you'd have more fun in the end that way. And I bet it neither "ruins" anything nor causes real problems. What it all boils down to to me is that you and your group want to get your game on, and there is no reason why you shouldn't. IMHO and all that.


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## P1NBACK (Oct 7, 2010)

the Jester said:


> Huh. I don't get this at all. The CB and MB are extremely popular tools. They are _adding something new_ to the digital offerings of DDI; I don't see how that sounds like they are scrapping the CB and MB completely. Is there something in a different thread or on the WotC boards that I missed?




I don't see them scrapping the CB/MB completely. But, I also don't see the idea they are adding something new either. 

_We are currently in the process of developing a new web-based tools system for D&D Insider_...

So, "tools system" could mean, they're transitioning the CB/MB to a web-based model or it could mean they are developing new tools to use on this system. We don't know. It could be anything. 

It's certainly not evidence they are dropping the CB/MB entirely. But, it's also not evidence they are giving us something new to play with outside of a new "system" which could be a web-based GUI that requires you to log in with your subscription info to use.


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## Almacov (Oct 7, 2010)

Lord Ernie said:


> See, while I understand your reaction should it actually come to pass, I simply cannot see how you (or anybody else with this reaction) can get from "new web-based tools system" to "Oh noes, they're gonna replace the CB with online-only tools!!!!".




Just to clarify, nowhere did I draw the _conclusion_ that "new web-based tools system" means they're going to replace the Character Builder with an online-only tool. I only indicated that _if_ they were to take that course of action they would lose me as a subscriber.

I'm wary, but I'm not one to cry wolf.


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## Zaran (Oct 7, 2010)

mudbunny said:


> The ENWorld forums are a nice change of pace from the Official forums. My thanks go out to the users and the mods.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Mudbunny, a couple weeks ago you mentioned that you can't talk about something cool because of the NDA.  Is this web-based tools system what you were talking about?


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## mudbunny (Oct 7, 2010)

Zaran said:


> Mudbunny, a couple weeks ago you mentioned that you can't talk about something cool because of the NDA.  Is this web-based tools system what you were talking about?




_puts on dancing shoes_

I'm not really sure how to answer that question, if only because any attempt to do so might expose a peek more of my NDA content.  The only thing I can safely tell you is that, yes, I've been aware that web-based tools were coming.


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## Goonalan (Oct 7, 2010)

the Jester said:


> First of all...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't know how to get my answers to sort of line up with your suggestions- I'm not that competent when it comes to computers.

I do need to understand Dark Sun (and in particular character creation) in order to explain it others, at present I don't- as well as I would like to, also If I told my players they were coming round to roll up a character I know for certain that one of them wouldn't show, and yes he's all those things you are thinking- and a great guy too.

You say the quick and easy fix with damage- tried it, (we were playing P1 and we just stopped because it was a push-over) I tried beefing up the encounters and that killed us with grind, then I tried the quick-and-easy fix with damage and the players mopped the floor with the bad guys, then I spent time and effort working through the rules as far as I could interpret them (with a little help from enworld) and it worked. So we're stopped on the Paragon path because I don't have time right now (until half-term) to do the stuff that works. 

To recap we've played four ways- three don't work the one that does takes time to do it right.

The players have never made characters using the books, some of them have never made a character yet. They don't own, read, look at the books- they turn up and grab character sheets (we used to use pregens only) and play. They use CB at my place to level up, we only worked out the Tiefling's Infernal what-not had changed about a month ago. I didn't know that MM was an auto hit till approx. two weeks ago... (not having the time again). We make mistakes all the time- again that's not the problem, a bit of overload with new rules and changes (that I am left with fathoming is obviously a problem- for me).

Group Character generation- as I say, Dave will not be there and there's a possibility he'd walk if he turned up and that's what we were doing. I know, I know... but we all like (love) Dave in game- he's golden (especially if he happens to be a grumpy Dwarven Fighter- people crying with laughter etc. and he's not even role-playing just being himself).

We will forge on with the game, it's just... I'm a lecturer, I'm a fairly anally retentive so-and-so, if I don't get a thing I find a fix- if someone tells me something has changed, I have to figure it out- get it right in my head. I have to learn a thing- as I type now in my office I am surrounded by files, none of which I need to have but all of which I have to have (for me, for my job, and for my game). I have to read this book to talk about it, watch the film, I have to understand a thing to do it- particularly as I am the rule-keeper, the CB et al made this incredibly easy for me- and I know it's not the right way of doing things just with the time I have it was the only way.

And at present it feels like the CB et al is the thing that I rely on (overly), since the CB came out and the Compendium then I don't have to carry books around with me- and I rely on public transport (which is also not great). I used to tote a (fullish) 90 litre ruck sack about with me- with game mats, tiles, dice, books, paper, my files and minis etc. When CB et al appeared I ditched the rucksack- and it was instantly a better game for it. I got creative again, and those moments of- I know that rule is... frantic flicking through pages, just disappeared.

I would run the Dark Sun one-offs, that's what we were going to do anyway, I just don't feel confident enough to do so, nor have I had the time to read much of the book as of yet (work gets in the way). If the CB was upto date then I'd figure it in an evening (with the book in my hand).

We're going to try and run a session this weekend, perhaps, we're mid way through the fourth or the fifth scenario in the Scales of War AP, and I've already scaled up the monsters- and I know that I needn't have (because they're only Heroic level) but I can't not- there's a thing in my head that says- that's not right they've changed the rules- Solos are this now, Elites are... Minions do different damage, a Soldier loses its... And I can't ignore it because I'm a bit of an anally retentive so-and-so- I may have mentioned this.

I'm in this situation because I do all the leg-work (but that's been the case since Basic D&D), and I'm the guy that needs to know all the rules, and I'm me- without the updates (and the understanding) I feel a little (a lot) flumoxed by it all.

We'll survive and all that, but I'm really not enjoying myself as much as I was- I get confused, and player A says- last week you said '...', and I have to shrug and just move on... And I don't like that.

Its a culmination of things- a myriad little (and large, seemingly IMHO) changes that have left me at a loss as to what I need to concentrate my efforts on next. I know that with the updates on the CB and Compendium that I can get through all of this- in time.

I'm on my knees praying that the new Essentials Monster book will contain the definitive revisions of the monsters because even when I'm using the ones that I have put together using the new rules I'm constantly aware that they may not be right, and that bugs the hell out of me.

For the reasons stated above I've lost my mojo, I'll get through it- when I can get the time to get my head around the changes but until then... I'm a bit disappointed with myself for getting into what feels like a mess, and for Wizards beacuse foolishly I've come to rely on them.

I know... I know... but that's how I am.

Love


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## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Oct 7, 2010)

Goonalan said:


> Snip




I don't know what he said, but Goonalan wins by submission


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## the Jester (Oct 7, 2010)

Goonalan said:


> stuff and things




Fair enough, you know your table and your own style better than I do (obviously!). And I certainly understand "option overload" and not having enough time to do the prep you want to do before the game starts. 

In which case, I hope that the Dark Sun update comes soon and that you guys rock it from there!


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## surfarcher (Oct 7, 2010)

Just one little observation here.

An online-only MB _completely screws over_ folks like me who do the majority of the DM prep intransit.  Literally 90%+ of my DM work is done on the train using a EEEPC.

If WotC forces me to log in to to that my plans to start subscribing next payday will be sadly truncated.  I will be forced into being a non-DDI DM.

After all D&D isn't an online game like DDO or WoW.  And many DMs won't have internet connectivity during their develop/play cycles.

I'm not going off half cocked!  I'm hoping they thought this through and are looking out for folks in similar positions...  I'll wait to see how this unfolds.


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## im_robertb (Oct 8, 2010)

the Jester said:


> Perhaps the dm ought to own the campaign setting he's running?
> 
> Or perhaps it's not necessary to make new power cards for each session.




I'm not running Dark Sun. I just permit mechanics from other campaign settings in my game. You know, swordmages, artificers, drow, genasi, changelings, kalashtar, warforged. 

And I don't make new power cards for each session, I make them at levelup. Which is about once every 3 weeks. When an update is delayed a month...


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 8, 2010)

For the record, moving MB or CB to be internet-based would seem to me, at first grok, to be narmed.

They don't seem to be broken as-is, so I would wonder what WotC would have to gain from that. "Piracy" has always been a non-starter on a reason because, no matter what, there will always be people copying and pasting your data outside of your wall. Always. Taking reasonable precautions is sensible, but investing time and effort in hare-brained, consumer-hurting schemes designed to wall off piracy simply makes you look foolish and gives your customers reason to resent you (when they should be your biggest fans!). 

Unless the CB/MB level of piracy is severely catastrophic, I can't see them gaining anything big from the move. Of course, I could be wrong. 

But given that the CB and the MB work fine as they are, my first guess is that this is some new suite, some part of Adventure Tools or DDI that makes the most sense (and is the most useful) on the web, away from the actual game table of most players. What that might be, I haven't the foggiest, but I trust 'em.  

That said, I just really want Essentials and Dark Sun stuff in the CB. That's the big thing I've been waiting for since those products were announced. I'm not going to pull my sub or anything over it (yet), but it's really important to me that I can use the new material in a timely fashion.


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## Scholar & Brutalman (Oct 8, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> But given that the CB and the MB work fine as they are,




They work fine as they are on Windows. Web tools could work on not just Macs, but Android and iPhone smartphones and tablets. Phones and tablets that lots of people could be bringing to their tables.


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## interwyrm (Oct 8, 2010)

Scholar & Brutalman said:


> They work fine as they are on Windows. Web tools could work on not just Macs, but Android and iPhone smartphones and tablets. Phones and tablets that lots of people could be bringing to their tables.




I'm not too optimistic about smartphone capability. The current compendium is unusable on android phones.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 8, 2010)

> They work fine as they are on Windows. Web tools could work on not just Macs, but Android and iPhone smartphones and tablets. Phones and tablets that lots of people could be bringing to their tables.




Yeah, they might be doing it for this reason (I bet Mac support is something they wanted from Day 1). 

Though I don't think smartphone folks and iPad folks currently would be a focus for a smart company, they might be going in a "platform neutral" direction.

But, still, I'd put my money on it being a new thing rather than a re-hash of an old thing that (they likely already know) would irk a good portion of an easily spooked user base. 

But you add an interesting thought to the mix!


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## ki11erDM (Oct 8, 2010)

I hope they are using HTML5.  Some of the demo web apps out there are darn cool.  Just as an example: Beauty of the Web

note: enworld.org working well in ie9


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## Markn (Oct 8, 2010)

mudbunny said:


> _puts on dancing shoes_




They must be John Travolta Dancing Shoes +5.  Nice answer!


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## Allaric (Oct 8, 2010)

Greetings folks.

I am concerned about backup recovery of the current Character Builder application in the potential situation that WotC discontinues support. I have been a paying subscriber for two years and have the builder on my PC currently. Does anyone know how to properly back up the program so I could reinstall it later if I had to? I was never worried about this until I seen the recent tone of news on the WotC forums.

Thanks.
-Allaric.


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## Henry (Oct 8, 2010)

I find myself in Jester's camp. Our DM is planning to start our Dark Sun campaign next week, with or without any CHaracter builder or Compendium updates. We've all taken the books and written out characters on Paper (or PDF sheets in my case) and we're ready to go -- it doesn't take that long, and hell, it's the way we USED to do it. We did wait about three weeks to start hoping on an update, but when the  Sept 21st deadline came and went, we said, "Screw it, we're getting together." Hell, our personal schedules not aligning had more to do with the wait than any Digital updates did. 

But then, I'm of the mind when my iphone app that gives me the weather report isn't working, I just turn on a TV, or if that fails, check a newspaper or stick my head outside.  I might not get any radar maps or all the up-to-minute stats, but I can at least plan my day sufficiently. Same thing with my gaming -- I'm not letting a computer app stop me.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 8, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> For the record, moving MB or CB to be internet-based would seem to me, at first grok, to be narmed.{/QUOTE]
> First off "at first grok" seems to me to be a contradiction in terms but you may be making a very subtle distinction. What does "narmed" mean?
> 
> 
> ...


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## Zaran (Oct 8, 2010)

mudbunny said:


> _puts on dancing shoes_
> 
> I'm not really sure how to answer that question, if only because any attempt to do so might expose a peek more of my NDA content. The only thing I can safely tell you is that, yes, I've been aware that web-based tools were coming.




I really can't see Mudbunny gushing on DRM software so maybe something cool is coming out of this mess. Of course, it would be nice if they just told us what they were working on...


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## P1NBACK (Oct 8, 2010)

Henry said:


> I find myself in Jester's camp. Our DM is planning to start our Dark Sun campaign next week, with or without any CHaracter builder or Compendium updates. We've all taken the books and written out characters on Paper (or PDF sheets in my case) and we're ready to go -- it doesn't take that long, and hell, it's the way we USED to do it. We did wait about three weeks to start hoping on an update, but when the  Sept 21st deadline came and went, we said, "Screw it, we're getting together." Hell, our personal schedules not aligning had more to do with the wait than any Digital updates did.
> 
> But then, I'm of the mind when my iphone app that gives me the weather report isn't working, I just turn on a TV, or if that fails, check a newspaper or stick my head outside.  I might not get any radar maps or all the up-to-minute stats, but I can at least plan my day sufficiently. Same thing with my gaming -- I'm not letting a computer app stop me.




Yeah. We're going on Session 4 of our Dark Sun campaign. I decided to go ahead and start a month before Dark Sun actually released and just update the PCs with DS stuff once it arrived. It finally came after our 2nd session, but only in book form of course. 

So, we've just been hand-writing out the Dark Sun stuff onto the Character Builder sheets that have everything else. Works fine so far.


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## Nightchilde-2 (Oct 8, 2010)

Henry said:


> We've all taken the books and written out characters on Paper (or PDF sheets in my case) and we're ready to go -- it doesn't take that long, and hell, it's the way we USED to do it.




Silly Henry, that would be common sense and reduce the whining too much!  You know the internet doesn't work that way!


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 9, 2010)

I've been expecting this announcement since Mudbunny made his post a short while ago saying that he was dancing around his NDA but that he "thought there would still be an October Character Builder update".

It was the word STILL in that sentence along with some various hinting by the developers on the WOTC boards regarding "working on projects that were a big deal but couldn't be talked about until they were finished, as per the new WOTC policy but that they wouldn't have to be quiet much longer" that made me believe that they were working on replacing the Character Builder entirely.

I'm fairly certain that these web based tools will have all the same features as the Character Builder, but entirely online and probably with a whole bunch of new features that make it even better than the Character Builder.  Who knows if the stand alone Character Builder will continue to be updated or not.  I guess we'll see.

EDIT: In fact, it just occurred to me that there may actually be an entirely new stand alone Character Builder to go along with the web-based tools that uses the same format so they can update both of them simultaneously.  That's why there is still one more update for the Character Builder, because the update either later this month or next month is the introduction of the new tools.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 9, 2010)

> It was the word STILL in that sentence along with some various hinting by the developers on the WOTC boards regarding "working on projects that were a big deal but couldn't be talked about until they were finished, as per the new WOTC policy but that they wouldn't have to be quiet much longer" that made me believe that they were working on replacing the Character Builder entirely.




I don't see it.

That sentence makes me think that the CB will be updated in October (as was said upthread). 

It gives me no hints as to what the "web tools"/"big deal projects" would be. They could be anything. They could be a Character Builder. They could be a mini-builder. They could be a VTT. They could be an animated GIF of a flumph making out with a beholder with a little pulsing heart behind them and the words TRU LUV 4 EVA in glitter-sparkles. 

I don't know why people are automatically jumping to "they're going to change the CB!" 

I mean, I guess the WotC quotes do reference both the CB and web tools....so clearly they must be linked?


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 9, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I don't see it.
> 
> That sentence makes me think that the CB will be updated in October (as was said upthread).




Well, I interpreted the sentence to mean "Yes, the CB would still get at least one more update in October".  I mean, it's the way I would have worded the sentence if I knew the character builder was going to replaced by a new and improved character builder in October and someone asked me "Is there going to be an update to the CB in October?" - "I'm kind of dancing around my NDA here, but I believe that there will still be an update for the Character Builder in October".

I don't think he'd have said anything about an NDA in the same sentence as the character builder updating in October OR included the word "still" if the new project wasn't directly related to the character builder and whether it got updates.  To me, it implies that there was some doubt as to whether there was going to be a last update to the CB at all.

Not only that, but Essentials characters are actually different enough from normal 4e characters that it requires a large reworking of the underlying code for the CB.  If you had a large list of requested features lying around and had to rewrite large portions of the core of the application already for Essentials, wouldn't that be a great time to also combine it with a bunch of other features?

And last, none of the Essentials stuff is going to be added to the CB this month, but it all got added to the Compendium.  Perhaps because the new version of the CB supports Essentials while the old one doesn't.


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## Njall (Oct 9, 2010)

Actually, IIRC, the word "still" in MB's post was there because, after the October calendar was released, people assumed that the calendar lacking an update date meant that WotC's plans had changed and that they no longer had an update scheduled for october. 
That's what MB addressed, unless I'm misremembering; it was something to the effect of:
 "So, does this means that WotC decided not to update the CB in october, after all?"
"AFAIK, there's still an update planned"


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 9, 2010)

Maybe.  I admit, I could be wrong.  I just love to guess.  In this case, the question was "I don't see it on the calender, is there an update this month at all?"

I would have expected the answer to be "Yes, there will be one" or "Maybe, I'm not sure yet" or "I think it's likely that there's going to be one."

I didn't expect a "I'm sort of dancing around my NDA here, but I think there is still an update for the CB in October."

I doubt the NDA covers whether there is an update each month.  I'm guessing the reason for the caveat about an NDA is that the actual answer is something like "We are announcing CB 2.0 this month or next month, so I'm not sure if they are planning an update to CB 1.0 this month or not, but I'm fairly certain there will be at least one more update."

Of course, he can't break his NDA to mention the reason why he isn't sure if there will be an update this month or not, so he mentions that his answer is dancing around his NDA.

Trust me, I'm good at dancing around NDAs.


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## Truename (Oct 9, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I don't know why people are automatically jumping to "they're going to change the CB!"
> 
> I mean, I guess the WotC quotes do reference both the CB and web tools....so clearly they must be linked?




Here's the evidence:

- If WotC was developing a new tool that had nothing to do with the CB, it wouldn't affect CB development times.

- On the other hand, if a rewrite or major overhaul of CB was planned, it absolutely _would_ affect CB development, quite possibly to the point where CB was literally incapable of supporting new content. This happens all the time in software development: a rewrite is planned, data formats are changed to support the new tool, personnel are reassigned, and then deadlines are missed and the old tool can't read the new format and has no development resources anyway.

- CB has had just one programmer assigned to it for the last several releases, which supports the previous two points. It doesn't make sense for WotC to give CB so few resources given that they knew Essentials was coming down the pike.

- New content is coming to the Compendium but not the CB, which also supports the second point. Adding new content to the Compendium seems like fairly simple data entry. There's typos in some of the entries' HTML code which wouldn't be there if individual Compendium listings were machine-generated.

- "Total rewrite!" is the kind of dumb mistake that software developers make _all the time_. (And before anybody blames WotC management, it's typically programmers who push for this.) The CB is old enough now, and the rules changes over time large enough, that the original design probably hasn't held up. That would lead to complaints about the code needing a rewrite.

- The existing CB isn't very newbie friendly. It puts _all_ of the classes in your face and asks you to choose between thousands of options. That's the exact opposite of the Essentials philosophy of providing a few clear choices with significant results.

- The current DDI subscription is a huge giveaway. $10 for ALL crunch ever created--ever? When you have to pay >$20 each for a dozen books otherwise? That's beyond generous. And the data sits on your hard drive, meaning that the tool is easily cracked and pirated even if you program it to check the subscription before starting.

- Marketing departments like to make big splashes. They probably had some sort of big announcement planned to coincide with the release of Essentials. Combined with the previous two points, this makes a new CB more probable. (Marketing's very hard deadlines and Programming's inability to meet deadlines is a traditionally a huge source of friction between the two groups.)

(For fun, Google 'software rewrite': Things You Should Never Do, Part I - Joel on Software - James Shore: How to Survive a Software Rewrite)


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 9, 2010)

Now, I'm not saying they're not, but...



> - If WotC was developing a new tool that had nothing to do with the CB, it wouldn't affect CB development times.




If they're developing it with the same team, it would. There's only so many labor hours to go around. 



> - CB has had just one programmer assigned to it for the last several releases, which supports the previous two points. It doesn't make sense for WotC to give CB so few resources given that they knew Essentials was coming down the pike.




Which actually supports the counterpoint. If that programmer has been called away to do anything else -- CB or otherwise -- it would affect CB times.



> - New content is coming to the Compendium but not the CB, which also supports the second point. Adding new content to the Compendium seems like fairly simple data entry. There's typos in some of the entries' HTML code which wouldn't be there if individual Compendium listings were machine-generated.




So the CB requires a bigger overhaul than they had originally scheduled in. That seems like the Occam's Razor answer. The simplest explanation is that they simply didn't realize how big of an overhaul.



> - The current DDI subscription is a huge giveaway. $10 for ALL crunch ever created--ever? When you have to pay >$20 each for a dozen books otherwise? That's beyond generous. And the data sits on your hard drive, meaning that the tool is easily cracked and pirated even if you program it to check the subscription before starting.




I believe it's the idea that "regular subscription trumps mercurial monthly sales." If they get $10/month out of you for sure, that's better than maybe $20. And there's probably a higher profit margin on the subscription than on a book sale to boot (pretty sure less than half of that book sale goes back to WotC). 

The rest of the stuff doesn't seem like very strong support. 

I mean, maybe. Certainly nothing I'm saying rules it out. But there seem to be much simpler explanations for the things we're seeing than "CB OVERHAUL CHARGE MORE ANGER FANS WHOA CONTROVERSY!"


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 9, 2010)

I'm not saying they are going to charge anymore.  In fact, I'm looking forward to any CB Overhaul that might come out.  I can't wait to see what they've been working on for months.

For me, the key was when one of the prime DDI developers posted on the WOTC message boards in response to someone asking if we were ever going to hear anything about the Virtual Game Table or any tools to be added to the DM Tools at all since it appeared that the DDI staff was doing absolutely nothing.

I wish I could find the post, but it was within the last month and it said (I'm paraphrasing): "We aren't doing nothing.  We just aren't allowed to talk about what we're working on.  WOTC has learned it's lesson about announcing things too early and not being able to deliver.  So, our new policy is not to discuss any project before it is already completed.  But rest assured, there is a team who is dedicated to working on new projects(that is not part of the team that updates the character builder) who has been working constantly on something big for the last couple of months that we're really excited about and I think all of you will be too.  I wish I could tell you about it, but I can't.  Although, I won't have to stay silent much longer."


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## Truename (Oct 9, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> If they're developing it with the same team, it would. There's only so many labor hours to go around.




True.



Kamikaze Midget said:


> So the CB requires a bigger overhaul than they had originally scheduled in. That seems like the Occam's Razor answer. The simplest explanation is that they simply didn't realize how big of an overhaul.




Also quite probable.



Kamikaze Midget said:


> I believe it's the idea that "regular subscription trumps mercurial monthly sales." If they get $10/month out of you for sure, that's better than maybe $20. And there's probably a higher profit margin on the subscription than on a book sale to boot (pretty sure less than half of that book sale goes back to WotC).




The "$10 for all crunch" (combined with the announcement of web-based tools) is what makes me think a rewrite is likely. All the rest is just supporting evidence. Remember, it's not "$10 / month subscription" -- it's "buy one month, download the CB, and keep using it for as long as you want." I see that advice on ENWorld all the time, and I tell my players the same thing. In addition, WotC really hates piracy, and from my 5-second Google search, it looks like the CB is very easily pirated.

This is all theoretical, of course, and maybe WotC is planning something else. But a new online CB fits the evidence. So does a major overhaul to the UI of the existing product--that's what I was expecting before hearing about the "web-based tools."

A third possibility that fits the evidence is completely new tools and no major changes to the CB. But I'll be very surprised if that's true.

(As an aside, I'm an author, and for my publisher the deal is that the retail store gets half of the cover price and the publisher gets the other half. My understanding is that's a typical arrangement.)


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## Allaric (Oct 9, 2010)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> I don't know why people are automatically jumping to "they're going to change the CB!"




...Probably because the builder is the only thing that was promised and delivered from the original DDI product previews. 

...Probably because it is the only thing most of us pay for. 

...Probably because it is two months behind schedule and Essentials has a retrograde design structure that doesn't match the current software.

Thats why.


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## Allaric (Oct 9, 2010)

*Ps*

PS: If they are making an entirely new character builder, regardless of its online/offline capabilities, I would be completely astonished if it supported anything other than Essential builds when it was first released.

With all the complaints rolling downhill a speedy and rushed Essentials only builder is likely. That would be OK at first as long as the old builder continued to operate by my new Essentials Warpriest has feats and powers from previous books and it wouldn't be usable in an Essentials-only builder. 

So it would be useless to me if the new builder didn't support the existing books.


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## epochrpg (Oct 10, 2010)

Allaric said:


> PS: If they are making an entirely new character builder, regardless of its online/offline capabilities, I would be completely astonished if it supported anything other than Essential builds when it was first released.
> 
> With all the complaints rolling downhill a speedy and rushed Essentials only builder is likely. That would be OK at first as long as the old builder continued to operate by my new Essentials Warpriest has feats and powers from previous books and it wouldn't be usable in an Essentials-only builder.
> 
> So it would be useless to me if the new builder didn't support the existing books.




So if it is Essentials only, How can I build a Mul Essentials Fighter/Slayer?  I hope that isn't the case, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.  Still be disappointed, just not surprised.


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## Lord Ernie (Oct 10, 2010)

epochrpg said:


> So if it is Essentials only, How can I build a Mul Essentials Fighter/Slayer?  I hope that isn't the case, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were.  Still be disappointed, just not surprised.



Err... the guy above you is just speculating. Hell, all of this is pure speculation, and unless WotC is dead-set on pissing of its customer base, it's all pretty unlikely speculation.

I know this is the internet, and people demand the right to cry foul and have a good bout of nerdrage, or alternatively, declare everything WotC works on to be made of solid gold, but let's not get ahead of ourselves, shall we? All we know is that 'new web-based tools for DDi' are in development, which could more or less mean anything. Seriously, I'm a programmer, and there's virtually nothing you can't slap a web-based front-end on and call it a web-based tool.

Until we know more about what they are working on, there's very little point in speculating.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Oct 10, 2010)

A online character builder? Maybe. But would this really be something that would excite all fans (as mudbunny's enthusiasm seems to suggest?) Maybe it really works on all platforms but I am not sure that's really exciting enough to _most_ of us. Obviously the majority of current subscribers is already using Windows. Many of us might see it as a problem, since it doesn't allow the "subscribe periodically to get latest update. 

It seems more like to be something else. Whatever it is. Maybe it is part of the Adventure Tools. A Campaign Planning tool or something.


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## Jack99 (Oct 10, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It seems more like to be something else. Whatever it is. Maybe it is part of the Adventure Tools. A Campaign Planning tool or something.




That's what I am hoping for. Of course, it is also what has the biggest possible chance of being an epic fail. Now, I am very happy with the CB and the MB as tools, but they (WotC) haven't quite convinced me that they have what it takes to create a campaign planning tool worth using. 

We will have to see.


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## Katana_Geldar (Oct 10, 2010)

Speaking as someone who has tempermental Internet, I would scream blue murder if they made it web-based.


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## jbear (Oct 11, 2010)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> A online character builder? Maybe. But would this really be something that would excite all fans (as mudbunny's enthusiasm seems to suggest?) Maybe it really works on all platforms but I am not sure that's really exciting enough to _most_ of us. Obviously the majority of current subscribers is already using Windows. Many of us might see it as a problem, since it doesn't allow the "subscribe periodically to get latest update.
> 
> It seems more like to be something else. Whatever it is. Maybe it is part of the Adventure Tools. A Campaign Planning tool or something.



Wow, you read my mind!

So let's play with a little imaginative logic.

WotC has been working on a project that it hasn't been able to talk about until it is finished.
WotC's policy is not to announce new 4e software beforehand.
This policy exists because of its failure to produce the promised VTT.
This failure to produce the VTT may have caused a very negative customer reaction.
This policy exists becasue WotC does not want similar negative customer reactions.
WotC does not want negative customer reactions.

WotC fail to update the CB in September.
WotC makes will make an update in October but the Dark Sun and Essentials material will be restricted to the Compendium.

Dark Sun and Essentials have generated a second wind of interest in 4e.
WotC wants to attract new customers.
Essentials has unsettled some satisfied customers due to fears that this new direction will be the only future direction.
Both of these additions to the CB are big additions that a lot of people are waiting for with a good deal of illusion and many with growing impatience.
The delay is causing a negative backlash from unsatisfied customers.
WotC has offered refunds for september.
WotC does not want to lose current customers.

WotC has announced that it is reorganising feats.
Since Essentials release, Wizard's powers are being updated to have effects on a miss
Dark Sun introduces Themes.
Essentials introduce an alternative class structure to Fighters, Rogues, Clerics and Wizards.
It seems possible that these changes alone would be enough to cause a significant delay in such a big update.

WotC breaks radio silence with the announcement of a reduced update of the CB in October alongside the announcement of (a) new web based tool(s).
WotC has formerly declared that it has a department working on very exciting projects that can't be talked about until ready.

The announcement of web based tools has generated the rumour that the CB will be web based once it is released.
Such a possibility would protect WotC from pirating.
Many happy customers have had a negative reaction to this rumour.
WotC ceased the production of PDFs to protect themselves to some degree from pirating.
This had a negative backlash from customers.
Pirating of D&D books continues.
Some people are excited about a web based CB because it opens up the possibility of the CB being used on macs

I may have missed a few points. It's late and my mind is blurrier than my eyes and I can barely see the screen.

Can I draw some kind of conclusion from all of the above. Well lets imagine, the beginning of november rolls around and WotC finally make their long awaited announcement about this web based tool that they have been working on, which we presume they imagine is going to really excite customers, as opposed to having a negative backlash:

"Well guys, thanks for baring with us through september and october. A lot of changes have been introduced to the CB with Dark Sun and Essentials, not to mention we've reorganised the feat section from top to bottom. And it will be up and ready to go on Tuesday! And, now we have surprise fro you! The CB is now an exclusively web based application!!! So you'll all be as excited as we are, now you can use your CB on your macs!!!"

Ok, so I don't know what you can glean from all those tidbits of 'things we know' and 'things WotC must surely take into account the next time around' to try and figure out what is going to be announced, but if I had to put money on what it's NOT going to be, I'd say it was what I wrote above. It just wouldn't make sense. And if it were the case, surely there must be something more.

What that something more is who knows. But if we're betting ... I'd say it's going to be something cool enough that if they are going to make the CB web based, which they must know is going to have some kind of negative backlash, then the coolness factor of the other new tools far outweigh the 'suck' of no more tabletop CB.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 11, 2010)

Yeah, I certainly believe that if they introduce a new web-based character builder that it may(or may not) actually replace the current one.  Imagine if what they announced was that there was an entirely overhauled CB problem that supported Essentials, built with a new UI from the ground up that allowed way more customization in terms of filtering out information that you didn't want to see than before.

While at the same time announcing that there would be a web-based version of the CB that read in the save files from the standalone version, was updated at the same time, and allowed you to create characters when at work, on a mac, or using your smartphone/iPad.

Even if they replace the standalone CB with a web-based tool, I could see some complaining, but in the end I think it's usefulness would outweigh the disadvantages.  But that's coming from me who has internet access everywhere he goes but uses the internet more often at work(where I can't install the CB), and on my iPad(which has no character builder) than I do on my home PC.


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## Katana_Geldar (Oct 11, 2010)

The only plus I can see on having a new CB is that I would have something that actually *worked* for once, as mine is very buggy and has been for months, and I'm the DM!


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## Ahrimon (Oct 11, 2010)

Katana_Geldar said:


> The only plus I can see on having a new CB is that I would have something that actually *worked* for once, as mine is very buggy and has been for months, and I'm the DM!




Out of curiousity, if your the DM, why do you need the character builder?


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## surfarcher (Oct 11, 2010)

Majoru Oakheart said:


> Yeah, I certainly believe that if they introduce a new web-based character builder that it may(or may not) actually replace the current one.  Imagine if what they announced was that there was an entirely overhauled CB problem that supported Essentials, built with a new UI from the ground up that allowed way more customization in terms of filtering out information that you didn't want to see than before.
> 
> While at the same time announcing that there would be a web-based version of the CB that read in the save files from the standalone version, was updated at the same time, and allowed you to create characters when at work, on a mac, or using your smartphone/iPad.
> 
> Even if they replace the standalone CB with a web-based tool, I could see some complaining, but in the end I think it's usefulness would outweigh the disadvantages.  But that's coming from me who has internet access everywhere he goes but uses the internet more often at work(where I can't install the CB), and on my iPad(which has no character builder) than I do on my home PC.




Lucky you.  

What about those of us whos workplace actively blocks WotC?

Who do over 90% of their prep in transit, without internet?

In that scenario we get sodomized.


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## Katana_Geldar (Oct 11, 2010)

Ahrimon said:


> Out of curiousity, if your the DM, why do you need the character builder?




To check my player's sheets when they send them to me before the game, then I can have a very good look at them and ask for changes. It's also handy to store the character sheets just in case (as has happened) a player loses theirs and needs another copy.


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## mattcolville (Oct 11, 2010)

I have no idea what's going on inside WotC, but I know what I'd like to see, and I have an idea of where WotC dropped the ball.

When I speak of dropping the ball here, I do so in the context of some very, very successful e-tools. The DDI is a huge success and, like Encounters, is a major source of positive press for the game. I've seen posts from dozens if not hundreds of users who cite the DDI, or the Character Builder specifically, as the thing that hooked them on the new edition. So I'm in no way accusing the e-support of being a failure.

But the one thing WotC should have been concentrating on is user-generated content. If you give the users the tools they need to create and share and modify their own content, you will create a hugely robust player base for your product.

The CB has a lot of virtues, but the fact that it's not online means that if I want to make, say, a Human Templar Sorcerer-pact Warlock, I have to do it all myself. In spite of the fact that dozens, if not hundreds, of players have already done it. 

In this age, that's criminal. A criminal waste of time and duplication of effort. WotC's highest priority *must be* the ability for players to share and collaborate on content so I don't have to make the 5,000th Warlock, especially when he's no different from several hundred other Warlocks.

I should be able to go online, search for builds that match my criteria, and see what's popular. What are the most popular Warlock builds? What are the most popular Sorcerer-king Pact warlock builds? I should be able to compare the most popular ones, vote on them, create my own version and share it and let it compete in the marketplace of ideas.

Why can't I easily browse through all the PCs in the campaign I'm playing in? Because they're not all online. If they were all online, using collaboration software that let me create groups and control public/private settings, I could join my friend's campaign, see all the existing characters, and make intelligent decisions about what I should be playing. Work to make my character complement, or contrast, the existing characters. Some free tools already do this.

That's just for players. You do the same thing for GMs, and now you've got the ultimate GM tool. Something that would make Dungeon and Dragon content look paltry by comparison.

The zeitgeist of the pre-90s RPG era was the DIY nature of everything. GM's spent hundreds of hours creating volumes of content, dungeons, adventures, house rules, campaign settings that only a handful of players ever saw. 

I don't know if they still do that, I think kids today spend their free time somewhat differently than we did (though not worse, I'm not saying there's a difference in quality, only type), but if you had these kinds of tools, I think we'd see a sea-change back toward that stuff.

If I can create my own Encounters, Dungeons, Adventures, and upload them, share them, vote on them, copy them, modify them, if I can create my own monsters, modify existing monsters, create level-appropriate versions of existing monsters, then I have effectively become an unpaid WotC employee. They, for free, leverage *at least* my time, if not also my skill and experience. And maybe what I create is crap. Ok. So you give the users the ability to make that determination and communicate it to others. Reviews, votes, tags. These are proven winners. They work. 

My GM friends and I have done a phenomenal amount of work on our games, spent hundreds of hours on custom-content. WotC should be *desperate*, really genuinely going INSANE to find a way for me to get that content out to the widest number of users. I'm doing their job for them, for free, and it's in their best interest--and more important, I submit, than anything else right now--for them to give me the tools to do this online in the first place (i.e. not create the content locally, then find a way to transfer it to an online app, I should be making this stuff *in* the tool) and then share it and let it compete in the marketplace of ideas.

There's a free app someone kludged together called the Combat Manager. I believe there's a newer app that's even better. The Combat Manager is, in my opinion, the most important e-tool we've ever seen. And it's free and easy to use. It makes running D&D4 so easy, so *ridiculously* easy and fun that you can run the entire game on the fly, with zero prep work. It's so liberating that I can't really describe it, you have to just get a laptop and download it, and use it.

But even that tool is nothing like as powerful and useful as a WotC version could be. Because while the Combat Manager lets you copy monsters from the Monster Builder and paste them into the CM, slowly accumulating a local library of monsters for the CM, and lets you import CB files preserving all the powers and stats, that's still *some* work on your part. How much better if you just logged in and *all* the monsters were at your fingertips? *All* the characters were already there because it knew which campaign you were playing in?

This is no fantasy. No careless product of wild imagination. The Combat Manager is real, I've used it. One guy did it on his own for free. There *must* be a WotC version and it *must* be online and allow me to share and collaborate information. It should be the most important thing WotC is working on, and my only fear is not that they don't think this is a good idea, it's that they don't realize how important it is.


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## Keefe the Thief (Oct 11, 2010)

mattcolville said:


> I have no idea what's going on inside WotC, but I know what I'd like to see, and I have an idea of where WotC dropped the ball.
> 
> When I speak of dropping the ball here, I do so in the context of some very, very successful e-tools. The DDI is a huge success and, like Encounters, is a major source of positive press for the game. I've seen posts from dozens if not hundreds of users who cite the DDI, or the Character Builder specifically, as the thing that hooked them on the new edition. So I'm in no way accusing the e-support of being a failure.
> 
> ...




They did a questionaire a couple of months back about what most D&D DMs wanted as the next tool. Campaign management won with a sizable lead. So, i think that your impression is wrong. And i hope you're not fazed when i tell you that the *things* that *Wotc* *must* do are pretty unimportant to me. YMMV


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## mattcolville (Oct 11, 2010)

Keefe the Thief said:


> They did a questionaire a couple of months back about what most D&D DMs wanted as the next tool. Campaign management won with a sizable lead. So, i think that your impression is wrong. And i hope you're not fazed when i tell you that the *things* that *Wotc* *must* do are pretty unimportant to me. YMMV




My impression is certainly not wrong, as I'm not talking about what people might answer when asked what they want (never a good way to guide development), I'm talking about the needs of the product. 

What you or I might personally want (a pony!) is not relevant to my point.


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## Zaran (Oct 11, 2010)

Keefe the Thief said:
			
		

> They did a questionaire a couple of months back about what most D&D DMs wanted as the next tool. Campaign management won with a sizable lead. So, i think that your impression is wrong. And i hope you're not fazed when i tell you that the *things* that *Wotc* *must* do are pretty unimportant to me. YMMV




What questionnaire are you referring to and more importantly where did they give the results? Their whole problem has been not saying anything to us


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## jimmifett (Oct 11, 2010)

Zaran said:


> What questionnaire are you referring to and more importantly where did they give the results? Their whole problem has been not saying anything to us




I also recall the questionaire. Campaign management would be nice.


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## Zaran (Oct 11, 2010)

jimmifett said:


> I also recall the questionaire. Campaign management would be nice.




Are you referring to the the one 2 years ago that people point to when someone asks what happened to the online gaming table?


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 11, 2010)

[MENTION=1300]mattcolville[/MENTION]: I think you may have a point, if memory serves that was one of the original goals behind Gleemax. The campaign manager was also I believe mentioned in a dragon editorial way back.
I also do not believe that what ever is coming is simply a new Character Builder with more bells and whistles, though that may be part of it.
if i is a tool that allows sharing of cmapaign info online then the content ownership rules will make intresting reading.


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## Bagpuss (Oct 11, 2010)

Zaran said:


> What questionnaire are you referring to and more importantly where did they give the results? Their whole problem has been not saying anything to us




It was back in early 2009 the results we on the news pages of Wizards website and mentioned and discussed on their forums. Aside from taking an advert at the Superbowl I don't know what else you expected them to do?

After a couple of minutes using Google.



> D&D Insider Survey Results
> D&D Insider recently conducted a large survey to both subscribers and non-subscribers to get more information on what new features and applications would best enhance the value of D&D Insider. Thank you for your feedback -- we received over 4,000 responses!
> 
> One message came across loud and clear – you want tools that will make it easier than ever to participate in and run ongoing D&D campaigns. We’ll call them Campaign Tools for now. Here’s what you said:
> ...




The Adventure Tools with it's Monster builder came soon after this, and in response to it. Unfortunately nothing else has appeared yet, but it was one of the reasons they used to justify shelving the Game Table and Character Visualiser.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 11, 2010)

Customize and print adventures?

Yeah, that'd be solid.

(a little reluctant about the "pre-made" part; I guess it could be useful, but most WotC adventures are poo times two, so I'd rather make my own using some solid encounter/monster/map tools).


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## Mirtek (Oct 11, 2010)

I guess instead of working on providing new tools for their customers they were instead working on taking away the tools the accidentally gave them.

Aka WotC never wanting the CB to be a stand-alone program that you can download and carry around for offline use and even use after your subscription has ended and it only ended up this way because they failed to create the limited version they originally envisioned. Now it looks as if they were/are busily working on correcting their misstake.


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## jdcash (Oct 11, 2010)

I bet the people working the DM Hotline later this month are really excited that this issue is still unresolved.


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 12, 2010)

Actually I would not mind that a one month subscription is not enough to get everything...

when you look at it from a neutral point of view, you will notice, that those people doing the subscription shuffle are hurting the hobby a lot...


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## Walking Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Actually I would not mind that a one month subscription is not enough to get everything...
> 
> when you look at it from a neutral point of view, you will notice, that those people doing the subscription shuffle are hurting the hobby a lot...




1.) As much as the people with SRD websites for 3,5? I know many people who got an overlook of these and bought the core book and unearthed arcana anyway. It may hurt Wizards a little if people only buy every third month, but the current model maybe actually increases their book sale.

2.) As much as people who share their 5 downloads with their group? I hear this practice often, and it robs Wizard of *4* subscriptions.


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 12, 2010)

1. no: SRD was only a small part compared to what you get with a single month of subscription.
I really would not mind getting core content (a.k.a. PHB X) for a single month...
but every supplement and every dragon magazine feat? For 10$? That is just too much.

2. This is something I mind a lot less. If not combinded with 1, it is a lot less severe.
A good thing would be a distinction between a DM version and a Player version. 

It could be an online application with a full version for the DM who can adjust everything to taste, and a spawn version for little money (1 or 2$ per month to get access to the DM´s site)
This would actually be a good business model where I would happily subscribe to


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 12, 2010)

I think it's a lot of hyperbole to say that people doing the "subscription shuffle" are hurting the hobby.

People who subscribe give WotC money. After a certain number of subscribers (who are paying for upkeep and the initial set-up), it's pure profit. 

If everyone subscribed for a month and then bowed out, it would probably just mean DDI wasn't worth the upkeep, and the thing would be dropped. Without really hurting the hobby, which was doing fine before DDI came along.

Since we're a year or so into DDI, and it's not gone yet, I'm betting the outlook is at least a little more optimistic. 

There will *always* be marginal players. Pirates, shufflers, group-moochers, whatever. The losses you incur from trying to stop these marginal players have to be less than the potential losses you incur from simply letting them play at the edges with a sharp eye on 'em in order for it to be worth it. 

In this case, I would not be surprised if it was worth it to stop them. 

I mean, maybe it would be. I was wrong about Dark Sun.  Maybe I'm not conscious of where WotC is on this. Maybe the red-faced screaming about THOSE PEOPLE WHO ONLY GIVE US $10!!!!! is more than I'd guess it would be. 

But it would still seem like there's more likely moves for 'em.


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## Merkuri (Oct 12, 2010)

Walking Dad said:


> As much as people who share their 5 downloads with their group? I hear this practice often, and it robs Wizard of *4* subscriptions.




I'm not sure that logic is sound.  Many of these people would probably not buy their own subscription at all.  They'd either only use the character builder when they get to the DM's house (which is another practice I've heard of) or they'd go without.  I think very few of these "borrowed" subscriptions represent actual revenue loss.

And besides, it's almost like Wizards was asking for this to happen.  I mean, allowing you to do the updates on _five_ machines?  How many people do you know that own (and actively use) five computers?  I'm a computer nut, and I've only got two, my desktop and my laptop.  Three, if you count my work machine (on which I'm not going to be installing the CB any time soon).  Microsoft Office allows you to install their products on only three machines.  Five updates a month is more than one person is expected to need.  They could've easily said just one update a month and made you pay extra for more updates.  Five is suspiciously close to the recommended number of people in a D&D group.

It may not be something they want to explicitly allow, but I also don't think they're going to be cracking down on it any time soon.


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## Stumblewyk (Oct 12, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> I'm not sure that logic is sound.  Many of these people would probably not buy their own subscription at all.  They'd either only use the character builder when they get to the DM's house (which is another practice I've heard of) or they'd go without.  I think very few of these "borrowed" subscriptions represent actual revenue loss.



 Yeah, I can only speak for my groups, but I think there are 3 other people I game with, between 2 groups that pay for a DDI subscription besides myself.  My subscription covers myself and my wife (and the 4 computers we use between the two of us), and I know that many of the other players share subscriptions.  If Wizards didn't pseudo-encourage this with their 5-PCs-per-account-per-update model, those people who are sniping DDI access simply wouldn't use DDI.


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## radferth (Oct 12, 2010)

I only subscribe to DDI once in a while, and only to keep my CB updated.  I haven't even bothered to download the Dungeon and Dragon PDFs.  It's nice to have the material from the latest books, but I mainly do it to keep up with the errata.  It seems to me it would be perfectly reasonable for WotC to go to some online-only model, but that would only be worth it to be if they have some very cheap player-only or CB-only subscription level.  The 4e groups I have played in seem quite dependent on the Character Builder, but I don't think this would remain the case if every single player had to have a active subscription (or mooch someone else's) in order to use it.  If WotC wants to keep CB being the default, they need to keep cheap options for those with less disposable income (and for ethical cheapskates like myself).  I fear they will be lured by the siren song of only worrying about next quarter's income, and end up squeezing an ever shrinking pool of players for every greater outlays of cash to keep playing.  (Note this last fear is based not on anything WotC has said or done, but on a general pessimism of the way large corporations operate).


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## Bagpuss (Oct 12, 2010)

Walking Dad said:


> 2.) As much as people who share their 5 downloads with their group? I hear this practice often, and it robs Wizard of *4* subscriptions.




I think WotC are more concerned about the fact a cracked version of the character builder appears on torrents usually within a couple of weeks of any update they do to it.

Personally while they should be concerned about that, I think they should be far more concerned with keeping the subscribers they already have. The people I've heard cancelling their subscription, are often complaining about the dramatic drop in quality of Dragon/Dungeon, and the fact none of the additional tools in the Adventure Tools section have yet to appear after more than a year.

Then failing to deliver the update for Dark Sun on time just makes you more and more question why you pay a monthly fee. It's seems clear that the subscription fees they collect from D&DI aren't being invested back into the serve. Perhaps they are still paying of the debt for development on the tools that never appeared like the Game Table and Character Visualizer?


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## avin (Oct 12, 2010)

As a subscriber I would be pissed if they decide to use an online tool for it.

Wizards should combat piracy, not bug their customers.


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## mudbunny (Oct 12, 2010)

October update is underway. Servers should be back up in a couple of hours.


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## mudbunny (Oct 12, 2010)

Looks liek the patch is up. No official confiirmation yet though.


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## Scribble (Oct 12, 2010)

So... everyone is getting upset about something someone speculated could possibly happen based off of 0 relevant info?


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## AngryMojo (Oct 12, 2010)

Well, the compendium has been updated, and with a new look.  I'm not sure if you could find all these in the previous compendium, but now there's a search for Backgrounds, Deities, Glossary and Traps.


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## Ryujin (Oct 12, 2010)

I just downloaded the October update for Character Builder and I'm starting to go through it. One word of warning: AVG Free 2011 gave a (presumably) false positive for virus in the Elevator programme.

*EDIT* I see the racial changes from Essentials, in CB, but none of the class information.


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## UngeheuerLich (Oct 12, 2010)

Ok, the compendum looks nice, but essential classes are a mess:

- unorganized
- bloated with redundant information
- no implement proficiencies listed for the mage


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## interwyrm (Oct 12, 2010)

AngryMojo said:


> Well, the compendium has been updated, and with a new look.  I'm not sure if you could find all these in the previous compendium, but now there's a search for Backgrounds, Deities, Glossary and Traps.




Backgrounds are new. Deities were borked earlier this week, but they aren't new.


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## mudbunny (Oct 12, 2010)

Also, WotC sent out the update announcement by broadcast, so unless you have broadcasts/emails blocked on your WotC community account, you should see the info in your inbox.


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## No Name (Oct 12, 2010)

*Errors in the CB?*

I only checked a few, but it looks like superior ki foci can only be equipped in a hand. Regular ki foci still go in the ki focus slot.


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## interwyrm (Oct 12, 2010)

So uh... I hope that the new compendium look wasn't the secret project. I like the new look, but it's really not that impressive.

Also, the way they put the essentials mage into the compendium is simply atrocious. Why the hell does the class page have all of the new and updated powers on it. 

They should have
Enchantment mage:
Apprentice Benefit:
Expert Benefit:
Master Benefit:

and then Evocation, and then illusion. As it is, you have to scroll through a tower (not wall) of text to get to the next benefit. 

As much as I appreciate wizards providing us with this tools, I really have to question the judgment of whoever is managing these projects. (Yes, I *could* do a better job).


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## mudbunny (Oct 12, 2010)

interwyrm said:


> So uh... I hope that the new compendium look wasn't the secret project.




Nope.


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## Kirnon_Bhale (Oct 12, 2010)

Having read through this thread - I figured that I should hopefully bring a little ray of sunshine to many who are displaying a fear for their beloved CB.

Make a new human and you will see that there is a change to the creation process. I want others to see it and judge for themselves but I feel that it shows that Wizards is not going to be abandoning the CB for a web-based version.

cheers.


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## Nichwee (Oct 12, 2010)

interwyrm said:


> So uh... I hope that the new compendium look wasn't the secret project. I like the new look, but it's really not that impressive.
> 
> Also, the way they put the essentials mage into the compendium is simply atrocious. Why the hell does the class page have all of the new and updated powers on it.
> 
> ...




I found it amusing that this suffered from the "alphabetical numbers" problem - It showed things in alphabetical order not level or topic order. Hence Level 10 facts show up before Level 2 powers, as 1 is alphabetically before 2 and 10 starts with a 1. Guess they need to look at sorting by value not alphabet, or start calling Level 2 Level 02


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## mudbunny (Oct 12, 2010)

FWIW, if people have not received the broadcast that was sent out around 2;20 PM (EST) today, I have created a group here (Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible) that will eventually have info that will help people in ensuring that their WotC community settings are properly set up.


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## Mirtek (Oct 12, 2010)

What is a WotC broadcast and why would I want to receive one daily?


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## Scribble (Oct 12, 2010)

Kirnon_Bhale said:


> Having read through this thread - I figured that I should hopefully bring a little ray of sunshine to many who are displaying a fear for their beloved CB.
> 
> Make a new human and you will see that there is a change to the creation process. I want others to see it and judge for themselves but I feel that it shows that Wizards is not going to be abandoning the CB for a web-based version.
> 
> cheers.




Can you highlight the relevant change for those of us who aren't really experts on the CB?


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## mudbunny (Oct 12, 2010)

Mirtek said:


> What is a WotC broadcast and why would I want to receive one daily?




If you are a member of the DDI group on the WotC community site (note, you can only become a member if you are a DDI subscriber), they can send out announcements (Broadcasts) to all of the members of the group. There are a couple of settings in people's WotC Community profiles that they could have toggled that could block them from receiving said announcements via email.

This is important as I am trying to get WotC to use this feature to keep people up-to-date on delays, important news, etc.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 12, 2010)

Scribble said:


> Can you highlight the relevant change for those of us who aren't really experts on the CB?



 If you choose human an option appears to choose the human racial power. There is only one (at least without the Essentials stuff) but it has to be selected before one can continue. In the pre-update version the sole human racial power (chhose an extra at will) was automaticaly selected.


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## AbdulAlhazred (Oct 12, 2010)

Sounds like they've done a lot of the ground work in CB in prep for an Essentials update. That will be good.


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## LightPhoenix (Oct 12, 2010)

I like the updates to the Compendium for the most part; specifically it seems to run a little more smoothly when it returns large numbers of results.  There are a few minor things I'm not fond of.  The big one is how it always switches to the category with the most results, even when I've selected a specific category.


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## avin (Oct 12, 2010)

Kirnon_Bhale said:


> Having read through this thread - I figured that I should hopefully bring a little ray of sunshine to many who are displaying a fear for their beloved CB.
> 
> Make a new human and you will see that there is a change to the creation process. I want others to see it and judge for themselves but I feel that it shows that Wizards is not going to be abandoning the CB for a web-based version.




Hmmmm... I've seen nothing new, granted that I've been using CB just for checking my players sheets so I won't be noticing nothing new anyway...

COuld you say what is?


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## Zaran (Oct 12, 2010)

mudbunny said:


> FWIW, if people have not received the broadcast that was sent out around 2;20 PM (EST) today, I have created a group here (Whoops! Browser Settings Incompatible) that will eventually have info that will help people in ensuring that their WotC community settings are properly set up.




I didn't get the broadcast and all my Community settings are default and my DDI account is set to recieve emails as well.  So unless DDI is upset that I cancelled my auto-renewal I should have gotten the notification.  My subscription isn't over until November.


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## Scribble (Oct 12, 2010)

Zaran said:


> I didn't get the broadcast and all my Community settings are default and my DDI account is set to recieve emails as well.  So unless DDI is upset that I cancelled my auto-renewal I should have gotten the notification.  My subscription isn't over until November.




Did you check your spam folder?  Maybe your email blocked it as spam?


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## renau1g (Oct 12, 2010)

Kirnon_Bhale said:


> Having read through this thread - I figured that I should hopefully bring a little ray of sunshine to many who are displaying a fear for their beloved CB.
> 
> Make a new human and you will see that there is a change to the creation process. I want others to see it and judge for themselves but I feel that it shows that Wizards is not going to be abandoning the CB for a web-based version.
> 
> cheers.




Wow....so they _could_ have squelched the rumor of no future offline CB with 5 seconds (assuming that is indeed the case, based on the Human having a racial option now), but instead chose to allow rumours to run rampant and have many (myself included) cancel their auto-renewal because of the lack of info. Again, it'd take 5 seconds to Trevor (or someone) to say yea or nay for future support of offline CB, but instead they've chosen to not post any info and then have rumours take hold. Another excellent job Wotc... damn...


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## Scribble (Oct 13, 2010)

Wait... you think they read every thread?  

Also you canceled your renewal based on an entirely unsubstantiated rumor? 

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk


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## renau1g (Oct 13, 2010)

That and the declining quality of the online content and the lack of updates for months and the lack of communication. Do I expect them to read every thread? Nope, but I also expect them to announce important things (like say the delay of Essentials/DS) on their main page rather than buried in their forums, which they did. mudbunny and the other guys (forget their titles) were pretty active in those threads and from my understanding passed along the questions to the staff so they decided not to answer. There was even a Outstanding question thread stickied by mudbunny... one of the unresolved questions was that. You really thing they _didn't_ hear all that flak from the community about this issue? Almost 90% of the posts were about that and/or the lack of communication.


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## Merkuri (Oct 13, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Wow....so they _could_ have squelched the rumor of no future offline CB with 5 seconds (assuming that is indeed the case, based on the Human having a racial option now), but instead chose to allow rumours to run rampant and have many (myself included) cancel their auto-renewal because of the lack of info. Again, it'd take 5 seconds to Trevor (or someone) to say yea or nay for future support of offline CB, but instead they've chosen to not post any info and then have rumours take hold. Another excellent job Wotc... damn...




Like Scribble said, they probably do not read every post of every thread.

And even if they do, part of the whole nondisclosure thing is not negating every rumor.  Imagine if they did negate every incorrect rumor.  If they suddenly got silent for one rumor and didn't negate it then everybody would know that this was the "correct" rumor, or that it was close.  If WotC doesn't give us any information then we can't play a game of "hot or cold" with them.

You may not like it, but companies have very good reasons for keeping us in the dark about upcoming products.  Think of the mystery web tool like a birthday present you haven't unwrapped yet and let yourself be surprised when it gets here.  And if you find out it's a lump of coal, THEN you can start complaining.


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## renau1g (Oct 13, 2010)

Merkuri said:


> Like Scribble said, they probably do not read every post of every thread.
> 
> And even if they do, part of the whole nondisclosure thing is not negating every rumor.  Imagine if they did negate every incorrect rumor.  If they suddenly got silent for one rumor and didn't negate it then everybody would know that this was the "correct" rumor, or that it was close.  If WotC doesn't give us any information then we can't play a game of "hot or cold" with them.
> 
> You may not like it, but companies have very good reasons for keeping us in the dark about upcoming products.  Think of the mystery web tool like a birthday present you haven't unwrapped yet and let yourself be surprised when it gets here.  And if you find out it's a lump of coal, THEN you can start complaining.




And as I said, they don't have to read every post of every thread, but thanks for implying I meant that   I said that mudbunny and the VCL or whatever they're called _were_ active in those threads and many posters _did_ say those things. Now, maybe they think "hey, who cares if we lose subscribers over this, the tool will be awesome and we'll get them back" which is fine. Now, your analogy to a birthday present should be fleshed out a bit more, say that uncle always gets you a lump of coal for Christmas, and one year he's like "let me make it up to you, I'll buy you an XBOX 360, a PS3, an Alienware PC, and a bunch of other really awesome stuff" and then Christmas rolls around and instead he gives you one thing and says "Oh man it's way too much work for all those things, be happy with this". The thing you get is really useful, but you always remember that your uncle promised so many cool things and failed to deliver, plus he always gave you crap before. "This time" he promises "the new cool thing I got will be really awesome" and the present is there, but you don't know when you can open it and based on your past experiences... well let's say your hopes aren't too high. 

I'm a huge fan of 4e, the CB, even the monster builder despite its flaws, but damn it would be nice if they finished something (like the aforementioned MB) before rushing off to something new and shiny...

Edit: Just wanted to add that while WOTC doesn't keep their customers informed of what they are working on with any details there are many companies that do. Car companies, video game developers, movie companies, yeah... it build excitement for your product. Heck, wotc really doesn't have any competition in their market space that would "steal" their project and develop it on their own.


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## Jhaelen (Oct 13, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Edit: Just wanted to add that while WOTC doesn't keep their customers informed of what they are working on with any details there are many companies that do. Car companies, video game developers, movie companies, yeah... it build excitement for your product. Heck, wotc really doesn't have any competition in their market space that would "steal" their project and develop it on their own.



Do they? In my experience, all of the company branches you mention (except maybe for the video game developers) take (sometimes extreme) measures to prevent information getting leaked before the product in question is actually done.

Particularly car companies are super-paranoid and typically behave as if they're working on fission bombs. Heads will roll if the slightest hint of their top-secret projects is leaked.


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## AllisterH (Oct 13, 2010)

I think honestly WOTC is actually doing the right thing and following the BLIZZARD model.

Blizzard will deny anything and EVERYTHING about a game UNTIL they pretty much rolling out the beta in a week.

And even then, they won't say when the final version is to be released until a couple months/several weeks before they're ready to ship...

re: Months of non0update?

Um, prior to last month, hasn't the DDI been updated regularly and only missed 1 month?

To my knowledge, it's only been this month and several months ago where the DDI update didn't happen....


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## Scribble (Oct 13, 2010)

renau1g said:


> And as I said, they don't have to read every post of every thread, but thanks for implying I meant that   I said that mudbunny and the VCL or whatever they're called _were_ active in those threads and many posters _did_ say those things. Now, maybe they think "hey, who cares if we lose subscribers over this, the tool will be awesome and we'll get them back" which is fine.




I doubt they think that... Of all things I think that's the furthest from the truth. 

I think it's probably which is better damage control when no matter what you do, people will complain, and behave as if the company just killed their puppy.

Do we say nothing, and cause anger, which will most likely be forgotten once the cool thing comes out... Or... Do we say things which then get misconstrued and spend an enormous amount of energy dispelling the misinfo, and fighting the "you didn't do what you promised!" comments...

Sounds like they find the later to be better damage control, when there is no way to escape the damage to begin with.

As for the delays... I honestly think they're trying their best to get things out as soon as possible and holding off a delay announcement until they absolutely have to admit defeat.

It sucks, but from my own limited work with programming software often seems like it's working perfectly, and then you notice a small bug that you need to actually do a ton of work to fix.



> I'm a huge fan of 4e, the CB, even the monster builder despite its flaws, but damn it would be nice if they finished something (like the aforementioned MB) before rushing off to something new and shiny...




I agree for the most part... But part of not having info is not knowing at all what the new and shiny is... It could very well be the rest of the MB, along with whatever the "web tools" are.


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## mudbunny (Oct 13, 2010)

renau1g said:


> And as I said, they don't have to read every post of every thread, but thanks for implying I meant that   I said that mudbunny and the VCL or whatever they're called _were_ active in those threads and many posters _did_ say those things.




WotC *is* aware of the feelings of the customers, both those that are disappointed with the happenings over the past couple months as well as those who it didn't bother.


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## Nyarlathotep (Oct 13, 2010)

Anyone know if WotC had any plans to make the encounter builder an off-line tool in the Adventure Tools?


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## Mirtek (Oct 13, 2010)

Scribble said:


> Wait... you think they read every thread?
> 
> Also you canceled your renewal based on an entirely unsubstantiated rumor?



 Rather because we're so unhappy with the service that WotC is providing that we're willing to believe such a rumor because it's perfectly in line with the past dissatisfaction about WotC. If it were about a company I actually trust I wouldn't have given such rumors a second thought.


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## renau1g (Oct 13, 2010)

Scribble said:


> Do we say things which then get misconstrued and spend an enormous amount of energy dispelling the misinfo, and fighting the "you didn't do what you promised!" comments...




Like when Trevor mentioned "we are back on schedule to provide members with our  regular content updates." despite not having DS or Essentials in the CB... 



mudbunny said:


> WotC *is* aware of the feelings of the customers, both those that are disappointed with the happenings over the past couple months as well as those who it didn't bother.




très bien. Quick suggestion that maybe you can pass along is something to record a reason why disabling auto-renewal/canceling subscription. I know many companies have this when stopping an auto-renewing feature and I'm sure it grabs some decent feedback.


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## I'm A Banana (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't rightly know why someone would cancel their subscription over a completely unsubstantiated message board rumor.

I get being irked about the lack of update (I am irked...though I believe in supporting WotC, so I will continue to give them their allowance believing that they can pull through), or, if it turned out that the CB was going web-based and you were irked about that, then pulling your subscription.

But message board Chicken Littles are not a good source of advice on what to do....ever.


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## renau1g (Oct 14, 2010)

Even broken clocks are right twice a day 

I'm signed up until June next year so we'll see how things are between now and then, still lots of time to improve their content. I'd really like to see more than 2 Dungeon adventures a month. That's a big thing for me


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## mudbunny (Oct 14, 2010)

renau1g said:


> très bien. Quick suggestion that maybe you can pass along is something to record a reason why disabling auto-renewal/canceling subscription. I know many companies have this when stopping an auto-renewing feature and I'm sure it grabs some decent feedback.




_blink blink_

_sounds of furious typing_

That is something that I already had on my list of things to pass on to WotC.


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## Dalamar (Oct 14, 2010)

renau1g said:


> Like when Trevor mentioned "we are back on schedule to provide members with our  regular content updates." despite not having DS or Essentials in the CB...



I take that to mean that they're back to updating on the first tueday of each month. Not that they're caught up with the data that needs to be supplied.


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## avin (Oct 14, 2010)

AllisterH said:


> Blizzard will deny anything and EVERYTHING about a game UNTIL they pretty much rolling out the beta in a week.




This is not true.

We've been aware od Diablo III and Cataclysm for months before a beta.

We are already there's a MMO being developed by Blizzard by a year and there won't be a beta for a year or two.

Blizzard is known for announce and take years to release "when it's done".


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## Katana_Geldar (Oct 14, 2010)

I honestly thought Essentials would be in the updated, but there's really only Psionic Power...which incidentaly has the monk in my group spewing as he build his without it. 

My subscription ends next year, I think, but I'm not sure if I'll renew it. If Wizards stop giving updates to core I rpobably won't as I'm not a fan of Essentials.


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## Zaran (Oct 15, 2010)

I would like to say that I didn't cancel my subscription because of a rumor.  I cancelled because I am paying for digital support for my DnD game and they are not delivering and not communicating.  The fact that are delaying information on information is just rediculus.  They act like if they tell us what's happening we will consider it a promise to have it in hand the next day.


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## Pbartender (Oct 15, 2010)

Zaran said:


> They act like if they tell us what's happening we will consider it a promise to have it in hand the next day.




Well, let's be honest...  Based on past experience, why should they think any differently?


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## Walking Dad (Oct 15, 2010)

Kirnon_Bhale said:


> Having read through this thread - I figured that I should hopefully bring a little ray of sunshine to many who are displaying a fear for their beloved CB.
> 
> Make a new human and you will see that there is a change to the creation process. I want others to see it and judge for themselves but I feel that it shows that Wizards is not going to be abandoning the CB for a web-based version.
> 
> cheers.



I don't want to disappoint anyone, but the racial changes (including the humans) are also in the errata...
So this is no real sign that they will ever include the essentials line in the current CB format.


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## Katana_Geldar (Oct 16, 2010)

Well, this could mean that CB would be seperate from Essentials then?


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## zoroaster100 (Oct 16, 2010)

It looks like some of the old data might have gotten a bit garbled with this latest update in the Compendium.  I was reviewing the Fighter class features and don't see where it says that if a marked enemy shifts away from the fighter or does an attack not including the fighter, the marked enemy is subject to an attack as an immediate action.  I had seen that in the Compendium class description for Fighter recently.  Maybe I am just missing it but I couldn't find it now.


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## abyssaldeath (Oct 16, 2010)

zoroaster100 said:


> It looks like some of the old data might have gotten a bit garbled with this latest update in the Compendium.  I was reviewing the Fighter class features and don't see where it says that if a marked enemy shifts away from the fighter or does an attack not including the fighter, the marked enemy is subject to an attack as an immediate action.  I had seen that in the Compendium class description for Fighter recently.  Maybe I am just missing it but I couldn't find it now.



Seems you are right. The combat challenge feature talks about marking then references to a Combat Challenge power, but the power isn't there.


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## Lord Ernie (Oct 16, 2010)

abyssaldeath said:


> Seems you are right. The combat challenge feature talks about marking then references to a Combat Challenge power, but the power isn't there.



I'm not sure where you're looking, but I can see it just fine on my fighter's character sheet. Maybe try the "Restore hidden power cards" option?


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## Mr. Wilson (Oct 16, 2010)

I just don't understand why everyone is taking the announcement of a new web based tool as "proof" that the CB is moving to an online only feature.

I'm more inclined to believe character themes and some of the Essentials stuff really messed with the CB, and they haven't ironed it out yet since they're busy with the new unnamed web tools.

If worse does come to worse and the CB goes online only, I guess I'll cross that bridge when we get there.


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## renau1g (Oct 16, 2010)

Lord Ernie said:


> I'm not sure where you're looking, but I can see it just fine on my fighter's character sheet. Maybe try the "Restore hidden power cards" option?




He's talking about the compendium I believe, not the CB.


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## UngainlyTitan (Oct 16, 2010)

Mr. Wilson said:


> I just don't understand why everyone is taking the announcement of a new web based tool as "proof" that the CB is moving to an online only feature.
> 
> I'm more inclined to believe character themes and some of the Essentials stuff really messed with the CB, and they haven't ironed it out yet since they're busy with the new unnamed web tools.
> 
> If worse does come to worse and the CB goes online only, I guess I'll cross that bridge when we get there.



 It has become somewhat fashionalble around here recently, in certain quarters, to take any announcement by Wizards of the Coast and prognosticate the interpretation that would most annoy the prognosticator, then post that prognostication on the forum. Where it is attacked, defended and then enters in to state where it considered a fact by some, a lileky outcome by others and a bunker to be stormed by those of opposite persuasion.
Arguments on the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin are quite sane and rational and built upon sounder chains of logic and inference than some of the stuff that has come up here over the last year or so.


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## Scribble (Oct 16, 2010)

We command you to stop trying to be rational on the interwebs!!!







GIVE IN TO YOUR ANGER!!!


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## zoroaster100 (Oct 17, 2010)

renau1g said:


> He's talking about the compendium I believe, not the CB.




Correct.  I was referring to the latest update to the Compendium, not the Character Builder.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Oct 17, 2010)

Mr. Wilson said:


> I just don't understand why everyone is taking the announcement of a new web based tool as "proof" that the CB is moving to an online only feature.



I've listed the reasons I believe this to be the case way upthread.  I don't think it's "proof" just that it seems a possibility.



Mr. Wilson said:


> I'm more inclined to believe character themes and some of the Essentials stuff really messed with the CB, and they haven't ironed it out yet since they're busy with the new unnamed web tools.



My only problem with this interpretation is that we've been told that the Character Builder update team is completely separate from the development team for new tools.  The lead for the DDI tools team assured us of this during a couple of posts on the Wizards message board.  He wanted to make sure everyone understood that updating the character builder didn't interfere with any new tools they were working on and vice versa.

I mean, it's possible that they considered the work to convert the character builder over to Essentials to be a big enough project that they needed the "new tools team" to help them finish it and since the new tools team was busy they couldn't get the support they needed.  But then again, we've been told the new tools team has been working on their new project for months and months, so I don't know why they'd expect to get their help all of a sudden.

Or...they purposefully put off updating the character builder because they assigned the task of creating a character builder capable of handling Essentials months ago to the "new tools team" and that team is running behind and hasn't finished it yet.  Which is the way I'd do it if I knew a big change needed to be made to the character builder in a couple of months.

Not only that, but any tool capable of handling Essentials would likely require a reworking of how the data for the character builder was stored.  In other words, it would likely require a conversion all of the existing data over to the new format.  Possibly requiring that the data be reentered.



Mr. Wilson said:


> If worse does come to worse and the CB goes online only, I guess I'll cross that bridge when we get there.




I have no idea if the tool will be online only.  I never said that, other people are jumping to conclusions.  But if I was doing it, I'd want there to be a web-based version of the character builder to accommodate users of non-PC devices(possible iPads, smartphones, Macs), and users of shared computers.  There's been complaints about a lack of an iPad app and Mac support for ages.  This allows you to support both of them(not completely, but mostly) with only 1 application.

I'd probably anticipate the outcry over the fact that the tool can't be used offline.  I'd either dismiss these people because I think that preventing pirating and forcing each member of a group to get their own account is more important than annoying some people who can't use the tool online OR I'd make 2 tools, one online and one offline that used the same data format so we only have to make one update per month.

Which one they'll choose, I don't know.  And it's certainly possible that they just stick with the status quo and hack Essentials into the character builder without making a web-based character builder and they are just extremely disorganized in finishing that.


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## Almacov (Nov 2, 2010)

Almacov said:


> Also, if the Character Builder winds up being online-only now, I will not be renewing my subscription.
> Just putting that out there.




As per this post, I will not be renewing my subscription.


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## Majoru Oakheart (Nov 2, 2010)

I'd just like to say: I win.


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