# What are the differences between the Broadsword and the Longsword?



## swordsmasher (Mar 27, 2005)

Hello,
  I was just curious what the main differences between the broadsword and the longsword are.


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## Mouseferatu (Mar 27, 2005)

When you get right down to it, not much.

Historically, they were as often as not used to refer to the same weapon--that is, a sword designed primarily for slashing, longer than a short sword, primarily used one-handed (though two-hand use was possible on _some_ designs).

Some people, however, do tend to use the descriptions at face value, with longsword having slightly longer but thinner blades, and broadswords having slightly shorter (albeit still relatively long) and wider blades.

In D&D mechanical terms, the differences should be pretty much nil.


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## Illvillainy (Mar 27, 2005)

Not much. IMC, broadswords cost 5 gp extra and have 'piercing or slashing' as a damage type.


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## Gentlegamer (Mar 27, 2005)

I generally prefer to refer to the D&D "longsword" as broadsword, and call the "bastard sword" longsword.  Probably not historically accurate, but a description that makes sense for the game.  Also, "short sword" is just sword.


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## Ron (Mar 28, 2005)

I have the impression that they are the same thing. I recall that broadsword is a much latter term given by fencers and sword historians to refer the old swords, as they were much broader than the rapiers. During the medieval times, they were called just swords. However, the bastard sword was a different weapon and I think that it actually had that name.


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## Arrgh! Mark! (Mar 28, 2005)

From what I know -

Your broadsword tends to be a older weapon, more often used single-handed and is better at hacking through things. Wouldn't want to stab with it. I think it was used mostly if not always with a shield - remnants of such swords have found they have little blade contact, so it's mostly against the shield.

A longsword tends to be a bit better at piercing, is a slightly longer blade with a pommel that can be used to grip. It's a later weapon, designed to deal with different fighting styles and armor.

From what little I know, anyway


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## Krieg (Mar 28, 2005)

Mouseferatu said:
			
		

> Historically, they were as often as not used to refer to the same weapon--that is, a sword designed primarily for slashing, longer than a short sword, primarily used one-handed (though two-hand use was possible on _some_ designs).
> .




Not to be too nitpicky but....

From a historical standpoint "longsword" was just a term used to distinguish newer (at the time) and longer (obviously) sword designs that came about due to the never ending arms race between weapons & armour. The newer sword designs had longer hilts and could be wielded with both hands to increase leverage. A "historical" longsword would actually would more accurately correspond to a D&D bastard sword or even greatsword. Likewise, the D&D longsword would actually have been referred to as a short sword after the introduction of longer blades or as just a "sword" prior.

Similarly "broadsword" was a later term invented by Elizabethan scholars to distinguinish the relatively narrow blades of the age from their wider predecessors.

From a purely period standpoint broadsword & longsword were terms that never saw use at the same time and their usage in RPGs in general (and D&D specifically) has little correlation with their real world counterparts.


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## JVisgaitis (Mar 28, 2005)

Historically, broad swords are weapons with a basket hilt primarily used from horse back. Long swords are more of a footmen's weapon with a long blade and a long handle, hence the term long sword. The term broad sword is attributed a lot to broad bladed european swords, but this isn't accurate at all. Film and books have confused the historical accuracy of this. If you want a great resource and techniques for Renaissance Arts with incredible videos and actual western martial arts, check out this link: thearma.org.


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## Starglim (Mar 28, 2005)

Gentlegamer said:
			
		

> I generally prefer to refer to the D&D "longsword" as broadsword, and call the "bastard sword" longsword.  Probably not historically accurate, but a description that makes sense for the game.




Actually, I was about to say that that would be closer to the historical usage, as I understand it.


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## Lars Porsenna (Mar 28, 2005)

According to my references, the terms "Longsword," "Broadsword," and "Bastard Sword" are appelations applied to later (Victorian era) scholars. In-period, a "longsword" (which was regularly used from horseback...IIRC at the Battle of Bourgtheroulde in the early 12th C one of the few cavalry charges conducted with swords occured) would probably have been referred to as a "sword." When sword design diversified enough -- with "longswords" developing a pronounced point to allow for an armor piercing thrust, but still retaining its slashing capabilities -- "longswords" came to be known as Arming Swords (i.e. the sword you wore at your side when in armor -- your side arm or backup weapon), while "Bastard Swords" were known as War Swords (the weapon you would use in war if that was your primary weapon, i.e. in lieu of a pollaxe or similar).

There were other bladed weapons that existed during the period of the ordinary sword (roughly from the fall of the Western Roman Empire to around the end of the 13th C IIRC), though these were different enough that they had their own names, or local enough that they weren't a major influence on the wider European culture.

As for the earlier slashing longsword of the 11th-13th C (the Classic D&D Longsword), this weapon _did_ have a tip and could (and indeed _was_) used to thrust upon occasion. In an illustration from a German source (Jungfrauenspiegel, ca. 1200) shows a German knight who is clearly thrusting with his sword (it also shows, incidentially, another knight using an ordinary arming sword in a two-handed grip), while at the Battle of Benevento (1266), French knights found it difficult to defeat the German's coat-of-plates (Splint mail in D&D terms), so they began using their longswords in a thrusting method, directed at the armpits of the German knights, where the coat-of-plates did not protect. These swords were still of the old type and had a fuller down its length (later Arming Swords, which I like to call cut-n-thrust swords, had a diamond cross-section for strength).

One thing to keep in mind about Medieval European weapons nomenclature, during the period in question, such names seem to be haphazard and indistinct. A Voulge could mean a number of weapons, from a pure axe-like weapon with a pointed tip, to a weapon resembling a halberd or other pole-arms. Most of these names were applied during a later period.

Damon.


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## Krieg (Mar 28, 2005)

Lars Porsenna said:
			
		

> In-period, a "longsword" (which was regularly used from horseback...IIRC at the Battle of Bourgtheroulde in the early 12th C one of the few cavalry charges conducted with swords occured) would probably have been referred to as a "sword." When sword design diversified enough -- with "longswords" developing a pronounced point to allow for an armor piercing thrust, but still retaining its slashing capabilities -- "longswords" came to be known as Arming Swords (i.e. the sword you wore at your side when in armor -- your side arm or backup weapon), while "Bastard Swords" were known as War Swords (the weapon you would use in war if that was your primary weapon, i.e. in lieu of a pollaxe or similar).




The term "longsword" (langen schwert or longa spada) dates back to at least the early 15th century and can be found in the fechtbuchs from the time.

The oldest verified source I know of is Hanko Dobringer's 1389 treatsie which was a compilation of Johannes Liechtenauer's earlier teachings.

Heck, the sword type itself only came into common usage 200 years or so prior to that date so I feel pretty safe in saying that it is acceptable period terminology.


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## Gentlegamer (Mar 28, 2005)

The more knowledgable have replied and it seems my instinctive renaming of the two swords wasn't too far from historical accuracy!  I'll definitely keep the nominclature.


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## megamania (Mar 28, 2005)

hee-  ask a simple question....

I am by no means an expert and came to read what others had to say.  It amazes me on many levels.   Good question.


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## Gentlegamer (Mar 28, 2005)

By the way, don't ask about the nomenclature of pole-arms . . . Gary doesn't need to be distracted!


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## swordsmasher (Mar 28, 2005)

You guys are simple...amazing.

thanks for all the knowledge!


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## diaglo (Mar 28, 2005)

in OD&D(1974) pre-Supplement I Greyhawk terms. no difference.

all weapons do 1d6 damage.

in 1edADnD (1978 PHB) there was a difference. but mainly vs Large. not much of one statistically vs Small/Medium


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## Remathilis (Mar 28, 2005)

in 2nd ed, broadswords did 2d4/1d6 lg. Longswords did 1d8/1d12 lg. 

They were redundant then, and now are lumped under longsword.

which is fine with me.


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## barsoomcore (Mar 28, 2005)

Sometimes, diaglo, you are a beautiful thing.


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## julius27 (Mar 29, 2005)

I work with live steel at a renaissance festival and here's what I think is meant in the game. The broadsword is just what the people who invented the term were referring to; that is, a relatively long (roughly 2 1/2 ft. overall) blade, typically with a basket hilt protecting the knuckles from scraping (though not from the enemy weapon; they were usually a softer metal and were meant to deflect inadvertant contact), and solid construction. A longsword would be slightly narrower, slightly longer (closer to 3 ft. overall), more probably with a wire swept hilt rather than the older basket (these better deflect the blade especially when it is moving much faster than previous fighting styles), and with a fuller (also referred to as a "blood groove") which makes the blade both lighter and stronger/less prone to break. As to the bastard sword which also came up in this discussion, it typically has a loger blade than either of the other two, may or may not have a fuller depending on the age of the weapon, has enough room in the handle for both hands comfortably, yet is weighted so that it can be used effectively with one hand.As far as functionality and game mechanics, the difference is so slight between longsword and broadsword that it almost isn't even worth mentioning.


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## Umbran (Mar 29, 2005)

This is not a topic with standardized nomenclature, making discussion difficult.  Different authoritative and historical documents use the terms in different ways.  Only your swordsmith knows for sure.


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## jasper (Mar 29, 2005)

Try reading some of the following.
Oakeshott, Ewart books and articles.
 A Knight and his Armour, A Knight in Battle, A Knight and his Castle, A Knight and his Castle, A Knight and his Horse , A Knight and his Weapons, Dark Age Warrior*, The Archaeology of Weapons , The Sword in the Age of Chivalry .  Journal of the Arms and Armour Society of London, A Royal Sword in Westminster Abbey in The Connoisseur Magazine 1951*. The Sword in Anglo-Saxon England *, Fighting Men (with Henry Treece)*, The Blindfold Game*, Sound of Battle (with Leonard Clark)*, European Weapons and Armour, Records of the Medieval Sword*, Sword in Hand*, Sword in the Viking Age* (not yet published). http://www.oakeshott.org/ 

Burton Richard Francis The book of the Sword *

Hans Talfhoffer Fechtbuch*


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## gizmo33 (Mar 29, 2005)

Lars Porsenna's account above is what I've seen in several different sources. 

The Summary:
sword, arming sword, warsword (and I think longsword=warsword) are terms from the medieval period. I think two-handed (German - zweihander) and flamberge are also historical.
bastard sword and broadsword (really refers to a cavalry saber?) are collectors terms from later eras.

But that only accounts for the original uses of the terms. With DnD, I think sword names took on a life of their own, and came to mean something to gamers based on a sort of "logic". Gamers noticed that there were different types of swords, those of later eras seem to evolve more of a point, I guess eventually leading to the rapier and epee - leading to speculation that these must be "longswords". I guess it wasn't just gamers, I have a vague recollection of hearing the term "broadsword" used to refer to a medieval-style sword, to emphasize the width of the blade. I don't recall reading anything from Gygax about his exact use of the terms, and it's possible that he just adapted stuff in common use in the wargaming community when the PHB was written (although you can glean a few facts about size, weight, and other names from the weapon chart). 

At this point I'm happy with using the standard DnD definitions of sword types; other gamers know what I'm talking about. But if you're talking to weapon historians, or doing research, being aware of how the terms were used originally (or at least recognize that your terminology might not be theirs) can help avoid confusion.


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## Steverooo (Mar 29, 2005)

*The Encyclopedia of the Sword:*

Copyright 1995 by Nick Evangelista.  Page 79:

"*BROADSWORD.*  A sword with a straight, wide, single-edged blade, often employing a basket-type hilt.  An average blade length would be 36 inches.
   The broadsword was the favorite military sword of the seventeenth, eighteenth, and nineteenth centuries (although it was also used in the sixteenth century).  It was also the weapon commonly used by the lower classes.
   One version of the broadsword, the Highland broadsword,* was adopted as the national sword of Scotland.  Another, the _schiavona_,* was Italy's version of the weapon.
REFERENCES
Castle, Egerton. _Schools and Masters of Fence_.  London: George Bell, 1885.
Wilkinson, Frederick. _Swords and Daggers_.  New York: Hawthorn Books, 1967."

Page 364:

"*LONG SWORD*.  The long sword was of the two-handed variety.  It was invariably a cutting weapon and was always, because of its length and weight, used on foot.  Blades of these weapons often reached five feet and more in length.
   The long sword family includes the claymore, the _spadone_, the _espadone_, the _zweyhander_, and the _flamberge_.
   Also called a "great sword."
REFERENCE
Castle, Egerton. _Schools and Masters of Fence_.  London: George Bell, 1885."


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## Steverooo (Mar 29, 2005)

*Records of the Medieval Sword*

Copyright 1991 by Ewart Oakshott.

Oakshott doesn't even use such names, but his own nomenclature of "Type I" through "Type XXII", with several "a" and "b" sub-categories...


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## Steverooo (Mar 29, 2005)

*A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration, and use of Arms and Armor...*

Copyright 1999 by George Cameron Stone.  Pages 150-1:

"BROADSWORD.  A sword with a straight, wide, single-edged blade.  It was the military sword of the 17th century as distinguished from the civil sword, the rapier.  It was also the usual weapon of the common people.  It generally had a basket hilt with a complicated guard of loops and shells."

The terms "Long Sword" and "Longsword" do not appear.


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## Galethorn (Mar 29, 2005)

As many have said before (but hopefully with a few extra points and some added clarity...)

*Actual Terms Used Historically*
Longsword: A light two-handed sword, which started out as a longer version of the one-handed cutting swords of the early middle ages, but evolved into especially stiff and pointy cut-and-thrust weapons.

Broadsword: A type of infantry sword that came into vogue during the renaissance, which was characterized by a basket-hilt, and an emphasis on the cut over the thrust; they are specifically associated with the scots. Oh, and they were double-edged, and much wider than the rapiers or sabers that were being used at the same time.

Bastard Sword: A sword with a blade of one-handed proportions, but with a handle long enough to use with both hands; they were much more common in the late middle ages, and often featured complex quillons (AKA crossguards).

Short Sword: Any single-handed sword during the era at which the longsword was in vogue (the late middle ages).

Greatsword: An especially big and heavy longsword that could stand up better to use against armor.

Two-Hander: Even bigger than a greatsword; came into use in the early renaissance to deal with pikemen (or so the theory goes).

Warsword: A particularly big cutting sword during the early to high middle ages, usually usable with one hand or two, but best with two.

*What The D&Disms Were Actually Called*
Longsword: Sword (in the early middle ages), or Arming Sword (later on), Short Sword, or (almost at any time) a One-Hander. Or, if it had a longer hilt, a Bastard Sword.

Bastard Sword: Longsword (if it's at the smaller end of the spectrum, and/or good at poking), Warsword (if it's an earlier one that's good at chopping), or Greatsword (if it's a big one).

Greatsword: Two-hander (AKA Zweihander or Spada de Dui Mani) or Bearing Sword.

Shortsword: Baselard, Poignard, 'Long Dagger', Ballock/Kidney-Dagger, or Coustille (for the big daggers), or Gladius (if it's really old), Cinqueda (for the ones that start of really wide and get really pointy), or even just 'short sword' if you don't want to use french or italian words.


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## Mercule (Mar 29, 2005)

There are a lot of different usages of most weapon terms, depending on when and where you are seeing them in use.

Asking how a broad sword differs from a longsword is like asking whether a morningstar has a chain (FWIW, IMC the answer is "no", that's a flail).

The explanation that I like best (mainly because it's paradoxical, but I think it was supported by EGG) and the one I give to my players is that a broad sword is narrower than a longsword.  A broad sword is a heavy fencing weapon or a narrow common sword.  The appelation of "broad" comes only in relation to the fencing weapons (eg. rapier) that are its contemporaries and that it would be compared against.  Stat-wise, a broad sword would either be statted as a longsword or a rapier, depending on which side of the mid-point the particular model fell on.


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