# How does a rogue fight the Undead?



## Lord Pendragon (Feb 17, 2002)

Hey all!  Okay, this is the situation I've found myself in:

I play a tiefling Fighter1/Ranger1/Rogue9, who's just gained the 9th rogue level.  As she's ECL 12, she gains a feat.  (We didn't know at first that an ECL character should only gain feats at class levels, so we've basically been considering the "tiefling level" as a class level in most respects.)

Her scores:  Str 14, Dex 22 (with gloves +2), Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12 (with periapt +2), Cha 18.

Her feats:  Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Finesse (short sword), Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Initiative.

Now usually, she uses a short sword and buckler, springing in and out of range to deliver sneak attacks.  Occasionally, she'll stick to a foe and dual-wield short swords.

However, our already undead-heavy campaign has recently become even _more_ undead-heavy, and she's finding it harder and harder to contribute in combat.  Her sneak attacks aren't effective, and undead in our campaign take 0% damage from piercing attacks.  So out go her sneak attack and her short swords.

She's been using a heavy mace and buckler, but in this instance, she serves basically as a watered-down version of a fighter, with a worse BAB and HP.

What I'm asking for here are two things:  1. suggestions on how to make her more effective against undead.  2.  suggestions on feats that would make her more effective against undead.

So far, all I've come up with are to up her Use Magic Device skill (to let her use a wand of _magic missile_ and such) and get her a set of masterwork heavy and light maces, to dual-wield.

Any help would be *much* appreciated!


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## Tsyr (Feb 17, 2002)

Convince your DMs to reasonably allow shortswords to do SOME damage? Heck, you can use a shortsword as a bludgeoning weapon if nothing else. (Perhaps not by the rules, but realisticly)

Beyond that, I dunno. Grab some maces, or take up a couple levels of monk and get some magic gloves.


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## Lunn (Feb 17, 2002)

Like Tsyr said, "Grad some Maces..."

Undead are the bane of the Rogue.  He deals with things (traps and devices) and people.  I haven't seen any Feat that aid the rogue against the undead.

If you see that the undead situation is not going to getting better, think about taking a few levels of Cleric.  You could follow a Trickters God.  The Trickery Domain can be very useful to a Rogue.  Depending on the gods in the campaign, your second domain could also be very usefull.  And with your Roguess CHA, turning and distroying will be easier.


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## Azardu (Feb 17, 2002)

Didn't they change the 0 damage from piercing attacks rule to half damage from piercing attacks, in the PHB errata? Not much, but still...


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## Piratecat (Feb 17, 2002)

Use your _use magic device_ skill... and wield a _wand of cure moderate wounds_!  You'll do 2d8+3 to the first 50 undead you meet, AND you can heal your friends in the process!  

Either that, or steal lots of stuff and buy yourself a cleric to follow you around.


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## Ravellion (Feb 17, 2002)

Half damage is only for skeletons. Wraith, Shadows, Wights, Zombies, Ghouls, Ghasts, Vampires etc etc. can all be normally hurt by piercing weapons. I would have a chat with the DM saying that it's hard to play a rogue without taking advantage of sneak attack, let alone that he is using a house rule which makes it even harder.

Rav

(edit : typo)


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## Umbran (Feb 17, 2002)

Or, with an 18 Cha, at 9th level, you go out and convince some clerics to come with you, or at least to make those wands of cure spells for you on the cheap, as you'll be using them to fight evil.  Or, get yourself a cleric cohort....

To be successful in combat, a character only needs to contribute in some manner.  That doesn't mean they need to contribute damage with their own hands...


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## Sir Osis of Liver (Feb 17, 2002)

you could take the pyro feat out of song and silence.

Burn, baby, burn!


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## bret (Feb 17, 2002)

Weapon Finesse (light mace) would help a lot against skeletons and other undead that are only affected by blunt weapons. Get a couple of Light Maces with Bane versus Undead and Holy properties, that would put some punch into your attacks.

You can use the Use Magic Device skill with Wands and Scrolls. Since you have a level of Ranger, you can automatically use any wand with a spell from the ranger list, which includes all the Cure spells up to Cure Serious Wounds and the Polymorph Self spell.

A rather interesting option with that would be getting a Wand of Holy Sword (Paladin 4th level spell) and use that on your maces.

A Wand of Halt Undead (Wizard Spell) can help. Once again, you would go through a lot of wands. Tome & Blood also has the Negative Energy Wave spell (4th level) that would allow you to Rebuke undead in a fairly large area.


Basically, Rogues hate having to fight undead, elementals and constructs. If that is all you face, you might want to start picking up a couple of levels of Cleric after making 10th level rogue, just so you can be more useful. With even one level of Cleric and a feat (think it is Divine Might), you could get a damage bonus against undead for a few rounds. Look in Defenders of the Faith for the feat.

Then ask the GM why he hates rogues so much. Seriously, in a campaign heavy with undead the Rogue is at a serious disadvantage over the other classes.


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## Shard O'Glase (Feb 17, 2002)

Use your skills to help the party avoid the fights with undead.


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## Dagger75 (Feb 17, 2002)

Or if you took Undead as your favored enemy as a ranger you can take the new spiffy feat from Masters of the Wild that allow you "crit" undead.


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## Lord Pendragon (Feb 18, 2002)

This is why I love these boards.  There are so many ideas here I hadn't thought of.  Wielding a couple _wands of cure moderate wounds_ is a neat idea, as is getting a hold of a few enchanted maces.  One upside to this is we're based around a rather large city, so most enchantments can be had for the right price and the time it takes to have them crafted.

I've considered having the rogue take a few levels of cleric before---it would fit in with her background and inclinations--but didn't really think only a few levels would be particularly useful.  One good point of the design of 3e is that while it's easy to multiclass, it's not always the best option. 

One thing to note:  my DM doesn't really hate rogues, nor do I think his choice to focus on a lot of undead was meant to deter me in any way.  But another member of the party is a ranger with undead as a favored enemy, so using undead frequently stemmed naturally from that, I think.  Overall, my DM's pretty accomodating to me.

The house rule states that skeletal undead take half-damage from slashing, no damage from piercing.  Other undead do indeed take regular damage from piercing.  No sneak attack, but the short swords do still bite.

Thanks so much for all the ideas, everyone. It's really giving me some good strategies on how to make my PC more beneficial to the party!


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## bret (Feb 18, 2002)

Dagger75 said:
			
		

> *Or if you took Undead as your favored enemy as a ranger you can take the new spiffy feat from Masters of the Wild that allow you "crit" undead. *




Could you post the feat text?

Depending on how it is worded, it might actually allow a Rogue to get Sneak Attack damage on the Undead.


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## Tace (Feb 18, 2002)

Many other people have mentioned bumping up your Use Magic Device or perhaps picking the Weapon Focus - Light Mace Feat.  Depending on your Stats, Improved Trip as a feat can be interesting.  That +4 to your follow up attack can be very helpful, plus since the target is prone it loses its attack.

Tace


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## hong (Feb 18, 2002)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> *Use your skills to help the party avoid the fights with undead. *




Yep. Just because they're undead doesn't stop you from going point.


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## Scarab (Feb 18, 2002)

We also use a house rule concerning skeletal undead -- piercing attacks automagically does the lowest outcome in damage, ie 1d6 does 1 damage, 2d6 does 2 damage. Added damage is unaffected -- 1d6+1 does 2 damage.


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## Enforcer (Feb 18, 2002)

You're pretty high level, so if you have enough cash you can enchant your short swords to get undead bane. Surely your DM would let you at least do the bane damage. This has the up-side of allowing you to use your best weapons, but the downside of being _really_ expensive.


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## Henry (Feb 18, 2002)

Use magic device skill is your best bet - not only for a wand of cure moderate wounds (thanks, PCat!) but also to have the party wizard make up some scrolls or a wand of of Halt Undead! Another idea is to use her attack to trip them, or just start lobbing holy water at them with an aspergilium (mundane item from the Defenders of the Faith book).


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## rankarrog (Feb 18, 2002)

You've got a feat to spend? Take Leadership and get yourself an Cleric-cohort


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## Epametheus (Feb 18, 2002)

Getting the ghost-touch enchantment on your swords will allow you to reliably harm incorporeal undead; flaming, holy, and undead bane are good additional enchantments (the nightshades are the only undead creatures I can readily think of with fire resistance, but a 12th level party is no match for a nightshade, anyways).  Though there isn't an actual proper undead-bane enchantment in the DMG...

If you have a LOT of spare cash, you can shoot for getting a Sun Blade, which actually handles just like a short sword (i.e., it's a medium-large weapon that handles like a small one), functions as +4 against evil creatures, and can apparently critical on undead (for x3 damage, no less), though the x3 crit ability is a lot less useful if it only works on evil outsiders from Negative Energy Plane (all one of them?).

A sun blade is worth 30,315 gp on the market..

Perhaps more reasonable, but very vicious, is something that goes for about 20000 gp, is a wand of Searing Light cast at 10th level -- a ranged touch attack that will deal 5d8 to the living, 10d6 to the undead, and 10d8 to undead that are vulnerable to sunlight, with no saving throw.  And wands are simply a straight DC 20 UMD check to activate, which is also nice.

As a side note, while wands of cure mod. wounds are nice, ya can't really dual-wield them -- it's a partial action to activate a wand, so you can only do 2d8+3 damage twice per round -- _if_ you've been hasted.  And it allows a Will Save for half, which unfortunately is the one good save for undead.

Seriously, a bandolier of holy water vials could be cheaper and more effective than the wand.  Or not; I just noticed that you don't have quickdraw, which sometimes surprises me with its ability to actually be a useful feat.

So if ya have the resources, bringing your swords up to snuff is what would allow to you do the most damage, and getting a ghost-touched mithril chain-shirt or breast-plate (and a ghost-touched mithril buckler) wouldn't be bad, either.

I hope that's of help.


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## TooCan (Dec 9, 2003)

My Rogue just took a feat called "Cold One" that you might want to look into.  Would make you pretty usefull as a point.  Downside is the pre-req is having lost a level to an energy drain.


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## Numion (Dec 9, 2003)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Her sneak attacks aren't effective, and undead in our campaign take 0% damage from piercing attacks




Hey thats a good rule


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 10, 2003)

> How does a rogue fight the Undead?




With heart, faith, and steel.

In the end, there can be only one.

-Hyp.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Dec 10, 2003)

Get some _holy_ or _undead bane_ (or both!) shortswords.  Even with the 0% piercing house rule, that's 2d6 extra damage per hit -- potentially 4d6 per round with two hits -- almost as good as sneak attack.


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## ejja_1 (Dec 10, 2003)

Flaming oil, holy water, and if your lucky enough to find them disruption weapons work well. Or have your spell caster spell up your mace, then wade into combat with new confidence.


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## kirinke (Dec 10, 2003)

*well..*

well. in the arms and equipment guide, they have new kinds of bullets for slings. one of those bullets is called a priest bullet. Basically,  it's a glass bullet thingie filled with holy water. The holy water deals 1d4 hit points of damage + the damage from the sling bullet to undead and outsiders. Other neato bullets include acid bullets and flame bullets (filled with alchemists fire). This could help you're rouge some.

Also, use a sprayer filled with holy water (think ouchie mist). Or get him up on the rafters or roof of a building and have him/her lob objects filled with holy water.

If the character has any skill with a bow, have her rig up a special exploding arrow-head filled with holy water and start shooting. (i'm mean.)


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## Particle_Man (Dec 10, 2003)

Look at it differently:

How can I help other members of the party hit the undead?

Thus trip, aid another, etc. can be used to help the paladin tank get a better chance at that mighty power attack with holy smite.

With tumbling and total defense, you could at least act as a distraction.  Usually, you have speed on your side, so you can lead undead away from others.

If you have potions of healing (or a wand) you can heal other party members, leaving your cleric free to do some serious turning.

And holy water is your best and cheapest friend ever.  You can throw it into meelee, and if you miss, so what?  It still does splash damage, and your friends get a  bath.  It will do the barbarian good anyhow.  

Don't try to be the direct guy.  Look at teamwork-enhancing options.  Big picture stuff.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Dec 10, 2003)

Find a copy of the Miniatures Handbook.  Take, somehow, 8 ranks of K (Religion).  Take Skullclan Hunter.  Sneak attack undead with light maces.

Brad


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## Elder-Basilisk (Dec 10, 2003)

If you need a feat, Extra Favored Enemy: Undead (from MotW) would work. It wouldn't be as good as being able to sneak the undead but it would be something.

Expert Tactician would be another good feat. If you get the drop on the undead, take an extra whack against them with your undead bane weapon.

For items, the Sun Blade is probably ideal if you can get one. Otherwise, some +1 undead bane light maces would help you out a lot.

For tactics, consider nets and tanglefoot bags. Undead spellcasters often have lower concentration scores than other casters due to their lack of con. The DC 15 concentration check is something they might occasionally fail. And the penalties to attack, dex, and movement for entanglement could help out your party.

Also consider disarm manuevers against armed foes. This will only help against some foes (a vampire is more dangerous without his sword as with it unless it's a REALLY good sword for instance) but it will be helpful when it comes up. Tripping will probably be less useful for you since you've probably not got that impressive a strength but you may find occasional use for it. (A Returning Undead Bane Bola might be useful in this regard).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2003)

Holy water. By the gallon. 
Or you could invest in a _wand of cure __ wounds_, like PCat suggested, and the _wand of searing light_'s not a bad idea. But you could, if the DM would let you, use _cure_ potions as grenade-like weapons. Take Quick Draw as your feat and start throwing. 
But, as other people have said, sometimes it's best for a rogue to do distraction duty when fighting the dead. One question, though- are you going to the undead, or are the undead coming to you? If the latter's the case, some ranks in Craft (traps) and a cleric buddy (for spell traps) would put a dent in the undead's day. 

Demiurge out.


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## coyote6 (Dec 10, 2003)

As long as we're giving advice 10 months later, use the 3.5e Weapon Finesse, so it'll affect those light maces, too. 

Or, SPOILER for Necromancer Games' Vampires & Liches:



Spoiler



Persuade the GM to let you get the _hollow blade_ -- a magic shortsword that lets one critically hit & sneak attack undead.


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## pawsplay (Dec 10, 2003)

Since you have levels in Fighter and Ranger, all you really need is a +1 ghost touch bane vs. undead greatclub.  Combine with Spring Attack.  Voila.  Failing that, make use of your Dex to use lots of holy water as a splash weapon.  You can also taunt the non-mindless undead to keep them busy while the rest of the party does their thing.  

Another interesting option is to get someone to cast _death ward_ on you so you can wrestle the undead to the ground.


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## Lord Pendragon (Dec 10, 2003)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> As long as we're giving advice 10 months later...



Yes, I was surprised to see this thread pop back up.  The campaign actually ended a few months ago. 

Still, there's a lot of good advice here for rogues who need to deal with undead like I did.  I only wish 



Spoiler



that I had known about that Hollow Blade when we were playing.  Yowza!


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## Darklone (Dec 10, 2003)

Get the Feat _Find the Secrets_ from the Kalamars Players Guide. Prerequisites: Imp critical with that weapon and some other stuff.

Allows you to sneak attack and crit constructs OR undeads OR elementals OR...


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## Shazman (Dec 10, 2003)

If you're lucky enough to have chosen undead as your favored enemy, then improved favored enemy  (+3 damage to all favored enemies) from the Complete Warrior would be very helpful.


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## Bleys (Dec 10, 2003)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> Though there isn't an actual proper undead-bane enchantment in the DMG...




In both the 3E and 3.5E SRD (I don't have the DMG page numbers ) there's a weapon enhancement called Bane, and one of the types for Bane is undead... unless you're referring to something else 

(Just trying to be helpful, that's all )


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## Wraith Form (Dec 10, 2003)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Use your skills to help the party avoid the fights with undead.



 As others have indicated, this is really a very wise option to think about.  

 It's what Bilbo would do.  And you *do* want to be cool like Bilbo, don't you?!?


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## Altamont Ravenard (Dec 10, 2003)

bret said:
			
		

> Could you post the feat text?
> 
> Depending on how it is worded, it might actually allow a Rogue to get Sneak Attack damage on the Undead.




Supernatural blow (general)
Prereq: BAB +7, favored enemy immuned to critical hits
Description: Whenever your attack roll against this favored enemy would otherwise be a critical hit, you inflict +1d6 points of extra damage per damage die that your weapon would do on a critical hit. In addition, your favored enemy damage bonus applies to this creature type normally.

(Does this mean that when you hit with a falchion or a spiked chain, you deliver +2d6 points of damage? )

It's not that good a feat, IMO. A light pick could deliver +3d6 points of damage on a critical hit. A handaxe, +2d6. You still need to roll a critical hit and to confirm it.

What you could do is get light maces enchanted with the Spell Storing ability. In the long run, it'd probably be better just to use cure wands, when I think about it...

AR


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## Epametheus (Dec 10, 2003)

Bleys said:
			
		

> In both the 3E and 3.5E SRD (I don't have the DMG page numbers ) there's a weapon enhancement called Bane, and one of the types for Bane is undead... unless you're referring to something else
> 
> (Just trying to be helpful, that's all )




Hmmm.  I coulda sworn that Undead was conpiciously absent from the Bane list, probably due to the existence of the Disrupting enchantment.

If Undead doesn't actually have to be house-ruled onto the list, then that's even better.


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## blackshirt5 (Dec 10, 2003)

I have to second the bandolier of holy water; the NPC Magister in my game has one and it's worth it's weight in gold.


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## Altalazar (Dec 11, 2003)

How about a blessed or holy short sword?  Or annoint it with holy water?  Or take the necromancer who is making the undead hostage and threaten to slit his throat with your short sword unless HE eliminates the undead FOR you.


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## Lord Pendragon (Dec 11, 2003)

Altalazar said:
			
		

> How about a blessed or holy short sword?  Or annoint it with holy water?  Or take the necromancer who is making the undead hostage and threaten to slit his throat with your short sword unless HE eliminates the undead FOR you.



Heh.  The necromancer in question was a very high-level wizard who was using an artifact to create them and ultimately free Orcus, Demon Prince of the Undead, from the Abyss.  We wound up sneaking into his fortress while he was out repairing a large stone portal (which we had destroyed) and stealing away the artifact.  That's where the campaign ended.

Also, I understand how some people could be satisfied by having their rogue do "rogue tasks" such as sneaking and unlocking, and not care that they were useless in combat.  Myself, I did not find those activities particularly fun, to be honest.  They mostly involved me having to disarm _Disintegrate_ and _Phantasmal Killer_ traps, while the rest of the party gave me the thumbs up from a safe distance away.  I certainly built my character to be adept at rogue-type tasks, but to have more fun, personally, I wanted her to have more of a kick in combat as well.  There are a lot of good suggestions in this thread for people who feel the same way as I did.

In my case, the party later found a minor artifact called the _Pearl of True Light_ that allowed any character who held it to turn undead as if they were a paladin.  Since my rogue had a high charisma, she was the keeper of the _Pearl_, and used it well and often.


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## stevelabny (Dec 11, 2003)

helping the party is nice and all but this is the real way for a solo rogue to fight undead.

sneaky rogue:

1> run away from undead.
2> steal stuff and make money.
3> hire fighter types with your money to do your work for you.

or for the charismatic rogue

1> run away from undead
2> make sure all your diplomacy synergies have kicked in
2> go to local temple of good of good or the sun or undead-killing. use your +20 diplomacy to convince a cleric to do your work for you.


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