# About Torrent and company...



## Amphimir Míriel (Apr 1, 2010)

I am loving the whole War of the Burning Sky campaign, and getting it through the Community Supporter program is an absolutely great deal. I want to thank the authors and Morrus for making such great products so easily accessible.

My only complaint is that for a great part of at least the first three adventures, the party is stuck with NPCs, in a way such that they are almost DMPCs.

I have made Torrent "go elsewhere to get information or negotiate" for several scenes during the first half of adventure one, but I can't imagine how to do this with her (AND Crystin AND Haddin) during adventures two and three... 


( For those unfamiliar with the term, or the reasons why players sometimes dislike these kind of non-player characters, see this old ENWorld discussion. )


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## sfedi (Apr 1, 2010)

These NPCs are DMPCs only if you use them as such.

In any case you can make the players use them, make them hang back in the background or just get rid of them.

None of them are essential, although I personally think they add depth and richness to the campaign.


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## Amphimir Míriel (Apr 1, 2010)

sfedi said:


> These NPCs are DMPCs only if you use them as such.
> 
> In any case you can make the players use them, make them hang back in the background or just get rid of them.
> 
> None of them are essential, although I personally think they add depth and richness to the campaign.




Problem is, that if you make them just "hang back" and not participate in encounters or challenges it kinda strains the suspension of disbelief.

But, if you as a DM, make full use of their abilities and knowledge, then you run the risk of having the NPCs steal the party's thunder (thus becoming DMPCs)

I know there's a middle ground, and I think I have more or less managed it during Scouring of Gate Pass, but I am looking for ideas on how to do the same during Innenotdar and Shelter from the Storm


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## Imban (Apr 1, 2010)

My group actually tends to actively recruit NPCs into the party, so we don't have quite as much hate of DMPCs, but if it's a problem, just make them worse than the PCs. You're the DM, so it shouldn't be terribly hard - especially since few of the allied NPCs in War of the Burning Sky are any good to begin with. 

I mean, Torrent, by the book, barely matches up to any competent PC, while Crystin is pretty much worse in every way. Haddin's pretty strong, but limited in what he can do - and since he's a *jerk*, my group kicked his ass and left him in a pile.

And, well, at least in my book having Crystin ping away with magic missiles doesn't really steal the spotlight from anyone.

This is less true of some NPCs later on - Shalosha and Katrina are fairly effective spellcasters, and Kathor Danava *would* be quite effective if someone thought to outfit him with real equipment - but those people won't be spending the entire game with the party.


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## liggetar (Apr 1, 2010)

In my game, Torrent was pretty much the only one actively involved.  Haddin didn't want to reveal to the party too much of the nature of his magic, so he would hang back and order Crystin to do the same, figuring that the baddies that the party ran across would be attacking those who were actively engaged in combat first.

This worked out well, because Crystin got to spend some time with the party's eladrin artificer, so when the artificer got into trouble, it was a catalyst for her to break daddy's domination and act, which in turn got the party cheering for her.  She's got a soft spot in the party's hearts, which is going to be great going forward.


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## sfedi (Apr 1, 2010)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> Problem is, that if you make them just "hang back" and not participate in encounters or challenges it kinda strains the suspension of disbelief.
> 
> But, if you as a DM, make full use of their abilities and knowledge, then you run the risk of having the NPCs steal the party's thunder (thus becoming DMPCs)



Oh, now I understand better what you meant.
And I agree 100% with you.



Amphimir Míriel said:


> I know there's a middle ground, and I think I have more or less managed it during Scouring of Gate Pass, but I am looking for ideas on how to do the same during Innenotdar and Shelter from the Storm



I have the same exact problem.
I don't know how to make them visible/active enough so they feel they are with an NPC, and how to make them invisible/passive enough so that the PCs are still running the show.

Even more, this has to happen on combat as well as on social encounters and investigations, etc.


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## Morrus (Apr 1, 2010)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> I know there's a middle ground, and I think I have more or less managed it during Scouring of Gate Pass, but I am looking for ideas on how to do the same during Innenotdar and Shelter from the Storm




I give control of the NPCs to the players in combat. _They_ get to decide whether each NPC helps or not (and uses up a share of the XP in the process). Works remarkably well.


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## sfedi (Apr 1, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I give control of the NPCs to the players in combat. _They_ get to decide whether each NPC helps or not (and uses up a share of the XP in the process). Works remarkably well.



How would you handle this in the case where you don't hand out XP?
(I have them level up at certain points in the adventure, when they reach certain goals)


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2010)

sfedi said:


> How would you handle this in the case where you don't hand out XP?




I've no idea.  I give XP!


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## sfedi (Apr 2, 2010)

Morrus said:


> I've no idea.  I give XP!



LOL

Ok, let me rephrase that.

How would you handle the various NPCs if you wouldn't want to penalize XP?


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## Morrus (Apr 2, 2010)

No, really, I don't know how I'd handle it!  If find XP to be the perfect tool for the job.  I guess you could try just ignoring the XP part and see how it works out; not havng tried it I don't know whether it would have the same effect or not.


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## Sorry_Charry (Apr 2, 2010)

Amphimir Míriel said:


> I am loving the whole War of the Burning I have made Torrent "go elsewhere to get information or negotiate" for several scenes during the first half of adventure one, but I can't imagine how to do this with her (AND Crystin AND Haddin) during adventures two and three...




AM, I'm running the 3.5 version of the game, just finished _Scouring_, and have just started _Indomitable._ I have run into similar NPC-laden situations. They weren't hard to manage, and didn't hamper the game. 

I handled Torrent in the first adventure as sort of a Resistance 'big wig'. It was her job to recruit the party for the snatch n' grab / courier gig... but not much else. I used her in the first few encounters (since she was still present), but very little after that.

I even had her stay in Gate Pass after when the party made good their escape (citing responsibilities to the city under siege).

Crystin and Haddin pose another problem. As it's likely that any party worth their salt will try to lug these two through the Indomitable Fire Forest. I've seen many of the posts here on the boards say that outright murder was the solution for Haddin, but I'm not sure the players I'm with will make that leap... at least until I force the issue with Haddin's dirty tricks.

At best, I expect them to run him off... not kill him.

To force the point, I've already had him charm the party's mage (into keeping quiet after he had determined that Crystin was under some sort of magical compulsion). Eventually, that will come back to bite Haddin I'm sure.

I've also decided that Haddin will be a vocal supporter of Kazyk's offer, as he would be the most likely to make a bargain with the devil. That's sure to strain his welcome in the party (they really are a bunch of do-gooders).

Crystin is another story, entirely. I am using psionics in the 3.5 game, so, rather than keep her as a sorcerer... I have statted her as a psion (seer).

But a character level does not an adventurer make.  In my game, she is still largely a scared and ineffective combatant. Sure, she'll get glimpses of the future when it's dramatically appropriate, but she will be the damsel in distress for the better part of _Indomitable._ When (if) she and her father make it to Seaquen... they will settle into whatever sort of life awaits them there (now that being said, I'm absolutely positive that Haddin's treacherous ways will not go unaddressed for the entire adventure... so sometime during the fire forest, I expect things to come to a head).


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## Amphimir Míriel (Apr 2, 2010)

Thanks Sorry_Charry, those were some good ideas... I think I'll follow your example for the most part, although I think Torrent will die heroically at the end of Scouring...

A question for Ranger Wicket et. al... does the Adventure suffer much if Torrent doesn't make to Seaquen? How about Haddin and/or Crystin?


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## Imban (Apr 3, 2010)

Haddin got a boot to the head without ever joining my party and no one cared, least of all the game plot.

Torrent being dead makes things a bit "interesting" since the villain of adventure #3 is related to her and, possibly worse, the party might not know anyone at all in Seaquen without her. On the other hand, she can easily leave the party to take care of other things once the heroes are introduced in Seaquen.

Crystin being dead stops her from dropping in with plot-related visions later, and also probably makes the party feel bad since she's cute. There's a note as to the fact that she still can drop visions on the party via just being a Trillith that looks exactly like her, but 'eh.


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## Orryn Emrys (Apr 13, 2010)

I'm running the 3.5 version with a party of seven.

I never treat NPCs as "DMPCs"... but I do inject enough personality and perspective into them to give them weight.  Torrent contributed in combat where appropriate, though I made sure to keep her contibutions fairly minimal and used her as support where possible (healing and such).  Of course, with that big axe, if she's near an enemy she's gonna swing.

Torrent is still around, and an ally, and interacts with the PCs some when they're in Seaquen, but she hasn't traveled with the group since they first arrived there.  (We're now in adventure #7.)

Haddin became too dangerous to keep around, and the party's rogue (who is now an assassin) took him out quietly in the Fire Forest.  Crystin is an ally who later became a love interest for one of the PCs, but doesn't travel with them either.  

I use XP, but will level NPCs "behind the scenes" if they're away from the party for a while and would best serve the plot at a higher level.

Torrent and Crystin, and later Three Weeping Ravens, are simply part of the expanding support cast which makes the game so much more dynamic.  My players are very character-oriented and spend a lot of time (both in game and in specially-arranged situations outside the game) roleplaying, and the army of NPCs provides a means for their influence and knowledge to consistently spread beyond the scope of any given adventure...  They're worth keeping around.


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