# Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow (merged)



## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

*Update: Malhavoc PDFs no longer available at RPGnow.*

From the ongoing thread about DriveThruRPG:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1583464&postcount=10

Malhavoc has ended their relationship with RPGnow to go exclusive with DriveThruRPG. DriveThruRPG distributes digital rights managed PDFs exclusively. If you have considered picking up some Malhavoc PDFs and have been putting it off, now is probably the time. Otherwise, your only option will to be jumping through hoops to use your files on different computers, or even to print them if you use some avenue like a print shop or a university printing service to print your PDFs, and you are even limited in how much you can copy to the clipboard in a given period, for those who might be using PDFs for their house rules or OGL projects.

*Update:* Malhavoc PDFs are no longer available at RPGnow.


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## Nightfall (Jun 7, 2004)

Or if you feel like jumping through hoops to get the PDFs, WW will still sell em.


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## Wombat (Jun 7, 2004)

I love Malhavoc material, especially in pdf format

I hate jumping through hoops

I refuse to use PayPal, due to problems I have had with them in the past

Looks like I'll have to wait for print copies


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## BradfordFerguson (Jun 7, 2004)

So people should buy Malhavoc PDFs, thereby supporting their move to a format that is going to be very unpopular?  Why should people indirectly support Malhavoc for a money grab?


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jun 7, 2004)

Hmm.  

This really sounds like about the worst thing for the PDF market.  Can someone explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever?


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## marketingman (Jun 7, 2004)

You are so correct Brad, Just like whne a new restuarant opens wait six weeks and see what happens.


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## marketingman (Jun 7, 2004)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Hmm.
> 
> This really sounds like about the worst thing for the PDF market.  Can someone explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever?




Well it seems that MP and WW made a bid to buy out RPGNow were refused so they opened in compatition with DrivethruRPG.com. Actually it is model that alot of comapnies have used for decades ( McDonalds in the early 60's, WOTC with the OGL clearence time to publishing today, Bershire Harthaway)

Now they have the best of all possible worlds print and PDF the growing industry with growing technology.

It is actually a salutee to RPGNow's marketing stratgy that others are trying to get a market share.


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## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

BradfordFerguson said:
			
		

> So people should buy Malhavoc PDFs, thereby supporting their move to a format that is going to be very unpopular?  Why should people indirectly support Malhavoc for a money grab?




The primary reason is so you will have the files you want in a more user friendly format, really.

But if you are that concerned about the format, it seems to me that a rush of people eager to avoid the new format would be a way to let them know DRM is unpopular.


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## BradfordFerguson (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> The primary reason is so you will have the files you want in a more user friendly format, really.
> 
> But if you are that concerned about the format, it seems to me that a rush of people eager to avoid the new format would be a way to let them know DRM is unpopular.




I see where you're coming from, I just don't wanna give them a parting gift for adding an annoyance to my life.  Don't get me wrong, Monte's a good designer/writer and Sue has also played a major part in Malhavoc's success.  I'm just not happy about it and I don't want to give them money by supporting their PDFs just as they are taken down.

Out of curiosity, I went to the DriveThruRPG website and it is HORRENDOUS.  Nice, "let's entrust our PDF market with a company that can't even run its own website."

-----
Bradford Ferguson
*Silven Crossroads*


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## Rl'Halsinor (Jun 7, 2004)

Hmm... you guys ought to visit the Necromancer Games General Discussion board and see the responses to Necro's decision to go the same route with their PDFs.  Full price and you get to use your own paper and ink to print them!  Talk about a deal...   :\


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## BradfordFerguson (Jun 7, 2004)

Rl'Halsinor said:
			
		

> Hmm... you guys ought to visit the Necromancer Games General Discussion board and see the responses to Necro's decision to go the same route with their PDFs.  Full price and you get to use your own paper and ink to print them!  Talk about a deal...   :\




Yeah Necromancer games is an imprint of Sword & Sorcery Studios and consequently White Wolf, so it's no surprise.


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## marketingman (Jun 7, 2004)

Mo profit mo profit, and even more. Nomore worries about the price of paper spiking to new high before the print run is set, so it must be the cost of the electric current they need to run the systems.


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## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

BradfordFerguson said:
			
		

> I see where you're coming from, I just don't wanna give them a parting gift for adding an annoyance to my life.




Well, I know where you are coming from, and you gotta follow your conscience, but it's was not my point that we should stick it to Malhavoc, but that you should get while the getting is still good.


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## Dragonblade (Jun 7, 2004)

The whole reason that I would buy PDF's in the first place is portability. If I can't copy PDF's to my laptop or to an emergency backup CD, then I have zero incentive to buy them.

I don't know how strict this new security system is but if it prevents me from copying my PDF's to a backup CD or my laptop, then I will no longer purchase them.

Locking down PDFs to the point of user/customer frustration just encourages piracy.


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## Wombat (Jun 7, 2004)

As of the moment, I have an entirely different point against the move:  between the time I last commented in this thread and now I have been attempting to simply open DriveThruRPG.  It is without a doubt the single slowest site I have ever encountered.  I have not been running any other programs except Solitaire and I only just finished loading the front page.  Most of the pictures of that page displayed the red X in a white box -- couldn't load.  

I have a cable connection; my computer is not that slow and I just defragged it last Wednesday.

As far as I am concerned, unless I hear of massive changes, I will not buy anything from the new site strictly due to time limitations.


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## BradfordFerguson (Jun 7, 2004)

Hmm, maybe I will have to limit my reviews to non-DRM PDFs...


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

I'm a tad confused as to whats going on.

Can somebody summarize whats going on, and why malhavoc is changing stores?


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## Nick_Danger (Jun 7, 2004)

*E-Books*

I've dealt with e-books in the past and they were a pain in the arse then, I doubt they have gotten much better.

I tend to buy from home, but use elsewhere to print and love the universal portability of standard PDF files.

As far as I'm concerned, any company that goes to a less user friendly method of electronic sales will not only loose my online business but my offline business as well, since I tend to buy the print version of the main products and the e version of the supplements.

My 3 cents worth.


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## Monte At Home (Jun 7, 2004)

At the risk of stomping on people's fun (because it's fun to run around and cry that the sky is falling), I'm going to be the killjoy here and say a couple of things.

Yes, Malhavoc is switching vendors. You can read our press release regarding the change here. The price of our pdfs has stayed the same.

I know that change can be off-putting. That's why we put out a brand new free (short) pdf on that site called Narrog the Earth Serpent so you could give the new vendor a try for free. I think that if you actually try DriveThru you'll find that it's not hard (you need the latest version of Adobe reader, but that's free too). They've got some nice How To and FAQ pages that you'll find to be very helpful (and if you want a laugh, click on the speaker on the menu board, in fact do it a number of times). 

No, it's not the case that you can't transfer the between two machines. I know that some people are telling you can't transfer the file from your desktop to your laptop (or whatever), but, to be blunt, they're wrong. You can. You can also make backup copies and print just as easily as you could before. There are limitations in the cut and paste feature, but we're thinking about asking them to relax those a bit as well.

No, Malhavoc didn't try to buy RPGNow. Malhavoc doesn't have any kind of stake in DriveThru. (And for the record, as long as I own Malhavoc, we'll have no interest in getting involved in that side of the business at all.) However, we wouldn't have made the change if we didn't think that they could provide the service our customers require. In fact, if you talk to someone who's actually *used* DriveThru, you'll find that they'll most likely tell you that it was easy, quick, and that customer service (if you need it) is also quick and helpful.


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## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Can somebody summarize whats going on, and why malhavoc is changing stores?




White Wolf is launching DriveThruRPG a new gaming PDF site to the tune of RPGnow. (One poster stated this was after a failed bid to buy RPGnow, but I have no idea about this).

The site operated exclusively though "Digital Rights Management" enabled PDFs, which means that you are limited on how much text you can copy to the clipboard and how many computers you can use the product on (which could case problems if you don't print them from your own computer.) And each one you want to use it on, you have to register with Adobe.

DriveThruRPG also only has exclusive arrangements to sell stuff, not to mention that Malhavoc is published through White Wolf. Malhavoc has ended their contract with RPGnow and their PDFs will be off that site by the 10th, and if you want them after that, they will be exclusively DRM versions from DTRPG.

In addition to all the white wolf titles, DriveThruRPG has wooed other print publishers like Eden, and got out of print titles by GDW and FGU into their catalog.

Many customers are concerned about the lack of convenience associated with Digital Rights Management. Others are put off by the fact that many prices as DTRPG are almost as expensive as the MSRP of the print product, whereas most consumers consider the printed product a significant added value, and you could get a print product cheaper through a big discount house like Amazon.


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## Alzrius (Jun 7, 2004)

What I don't understand is, why change vendors at all? The feedback I've heard so far has been less than encouraging, and RPGnow seems to be doing well for a reason. It didn't seem broken, so why fix it?


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 7, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> In fact, if you talk to someone who's actually *used* DriveThru, you'll find that they'll most likely tell you that it was easy, quick, and that customer service (if you need it) is also quick and helpful.



One thing that's not quick, easy, or customer-friendly is the load time on their site. Broken images, minutes to load the front page....not a good first impression. Makes ENWorld look fast as lightning.  I wonder if their server problems will affect downloads?


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Others are put off by the fact that many prices as DTRPG are almost as expensive as the MSRP of the print product, whereas most consumers consider the printed product a significant added value, and you could get a print product cheaper through a big discount house like Amazon.



This is what *really* confuses me about their model. DTRPG basically gives a buck off the MSRP, while Amazon gives 30%, and other sites even more, for a print product. Are they banking on the idea that people actually *want* pdfs instead of books for new products?


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

Hrm. Monte, thanks for chiming in.

I do not like this turn unfortunatly. Especially since people are saying the security enabled PDF's cost more. I like PDF's cause the majority of them are 5$. I tend to stick to print products because I cant afford to buy both. Now that gap is increased further. 

Can you perhaps enlighten us why you've chosen to do exlusive contracts and couldnt work with both sites?


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## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

I suspect the slow server issue thing is due to the fact that they are giving away a PDF of Exalted FREE! Heck, I even went for that.

It wasn't a total pain in the butt to get it, and I'm on dialup.


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## BradfordFerguson (Jun 7, 2004)

With all due respect, I am not against change itself, but I am against it when things don't change for the better.  Honestly, the DriveThruRPG.com BAREly loaded before timing out the first time and it refused to load Malhavoc's product offering page.  I tried to load it 20 minutes later and the front page simply didn't load for me.

For me, RPGNow.com is fast and easy to use.  I think all the people that refuse to do Paypal.com are simply silly... Right now, Drive Thru RPG isn't fast or easy to use, I can't even navigate the webpage more than two clicks without running into a timeout error.

I think it's a big business mistake for you (Malhavoc) because Drive Thru RPG doesn't have a proven track record, nor do their webmasters have a proven track record.  No offense to Sword & Sorcery Studios (or White Wolf), but I don't think you can point to their website as user-friendly.  Unless Drive Thru RPG seeks outside help from someone more capable, I think it will experience some growing pains for three months if not longer.  There's only so much people are willing to put up with before they decide it's not worth their effort.

edit: I concede that there is the possibility that publishers under White Wolf do not have much choice in the matter.


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## Napftor (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> ...Can you perhaps enlighten us why you've chosen to do exlusive contracts and couldnt work with both sites?




Maybe it's a White Wolf thing?


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 7, 2004)

There's no "Get Adobe Reader here!" link on the front page of their site.


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## The_lurkeR (Jun 7, 2004)

I can't even get their site to load for one...
Secondly DRM to be blunt, sucks.

Personally if I buy a book or PDF I expect to be able to do whatever I want with it, the transaction is over, get out of my business. No I'm not going to go posting it on Kazaa, but I don't want to jump through any hoops or hassles either.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

Napftor said:
			
		

> Maybe it's a White Wolf thing?



Thats very possible, but I dunno... Monte seems very exited about the change, and I dont think he'd put on a fascad like that. I have no doubt that he genuinly supports the site and idea.


In fact, I applaud and support his attempt to combat piracy. Though, I think it sacrifices to much in the longrun, for what might be too little of an effect. These security issues can by bypassed with anyone truly intrested in doing so. 


The large selection of White Wolf products is impressive, i'll admit. 

The whole thing however makes me suspicious and a tad leery. I'll sit back and watch what happens so far.


As for the press release... will that be BOEM 3.5, or 3.0?


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## Monte At Home (Jun 7, 2004)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> This is what *really* confuses me about their model. DTRPG basically gives a buck off the MSRP, while Amazon gives 30%, and other sites even more, for a print product. Are they banking on the idea that people actually *want* pdfs instead of books for new products?




The publishers decide the price, just like at RPGNow or your local game store. Malhavoc prices are all the same for their pdfs as they always have been. Plenty of other products are at about half the print product cost. If you've got an issue with the price, take it up with the publisher, not DriveThru.

If I can get real with you for a minute, though, give the publishers a break. Most of these guys have never sold electronic products. They don't know what the pdf market is like--they're getting their feet wet. It's a HUUUGE deal that some of them are trying it at all. Let me tell you from first hand experience that just about every print publisher in the industry is afraid of electronic publishing. They think it might hurt their print sales. (I have found through experience that this is not true.) They think that the pdf market is not worth the bother. Most of them over the course of the last three years have told me to my face that I'm crazy. This is a big step for them.

Hopefully, in a bit, the guys with too-high prices will see that electronic products are not going to ruin them and they'll bring them down to be more in line with the rest of the pdf market. I know that you're going to see more, not fewer, companies dip their toe into this market because of DriveThru. If you like electronic products at all, this is a really exciting development.

(And yeah, the site is slow. ALthough I have no control over it, I apologize for any inconvenience. They're working on it. A brand new site with a few start up problems it's not exactly the first time that's happened on the internet.)


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## Power_Word_Wedgie (Jun 7, 2004)

All I cn say is that I went to the DriveThruRPG site and (a) didn't have problems uploading any of the pictures (I have a 56K connection) and (b) the prices are still cheaper than when I bought the books in the bookstore.  For example, _The Book of Hallowed Might_ was selling for $7 where I bought the hardcover at my FLGS for $10.95.

Now I don't usually buy PDFs since I like to get the hardcopy for my FLGS.  I guess I'm just weird that way.  At any rate, IMHO much of what is being represented in this thread may be considered a little misleading.  YMMV.


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## Nightfall (Jun 7, 2004)

Monte's right. I've checked the S&SS books. Most are close to half off. The others, I'll grant you aren't. So it's a pretty uneven thing but given that they put the Player's Guides for Scarred Lands at half off, It's a pretty darn good steal. (11.98 folks! Goodness knows I'd pay for that if I didn't already have the books.)


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## Nick_Danger (Jun 7, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I know that change can be off-putting. That's why we put out a brand new free (short) pdf on that site called Narrog the Earth Serpent so you could give the new vendor a try for free. I think that if you actually try DriveThru you'll find that it's not hard (you need the latest version of Adobe reader, but that's free too). They've got some nice How To and FAQ pages that you'll find to be very helpful (and if you want a laugh, click on the speaker on the menu board, in fact do it a number of times).




I thought I'd give it a shot, even though it was a three ring circus to get accounts all over the place, that at least is a one time deal.

Poped onto DriveThruRPG to try the "free" download to give it a test-drive and while a buck isn't a whole lot these days, it's not "free" as advertised.

Just setting the record straight.


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## Dark Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

Power_Word_Wedgie said:
			
		

> All I cn say is that I went to the DriveThruRPG site and (a) didn't have problems uploading any of the pictures (I have a 56K connection) and (b) the prices are still cheaper than when I bought the books in the bookstore.  For example, _The Book of Hallowed Might_ was selling for $7 where I bought the hardcover at my FLGS for $10.95.
> 
> Now I don't usually buy PDFs since I like to get the hardcopy for my FLGS.  I guess I'm just weird that way.  At any rate, IMHO much of what is being represented in this thread may be considered a little misleading.  YMMV.





For a lot of us RPGNow! is our Friendly Local Gameshop and these tactics by Malhavoc and White Wolf seem to be designed to put them out of business. 

I know RPGNow!, When I have had problems, I got great customer service from them. To drop them would be a dis-service as a customer and lousy way to repay them.

I don't know this company and especially don't like these bully tactics. It's like saying this book is only available from Wal Mart and we won't let your local hobby shop sell it.

If Malhavoc doesn't want me as a customer, then so be it.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

Why did you have to pay a dollar?

I'll definatly give them a try to get BOEM if its 3.5.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

I dont get the "vibe" that Monte, MP, or WW is activly trying to push RPGNOW out of buisness. Monte is not that type of person, I dont think he'd willingly or knowingly take part in that.

I would however, would like to know, why Malhavoc has decided to go with DT exlusivly. 

If possible that is.


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## marketingman (Jun 7, 2004)

I visited the site and ol Mr. Clicky the Wonder Computer just breezed right thru.  Trust me I am no computer genuis.

If they can make more money well thats is capitalism at it finest. The market is there for the rpint indusrty to expand into the E-publishing just has if they can e-publishers can move into print. It is just more easly done for a print game company to move into e-publishing then for the small e-publisher to move into print and compete.

We did have a nice healthy  thread on the logic of  low POD sales. Markets are driven by the consumers wants and desires and gamers are notorious for hating something but still spending money on it.

Also I would like to say I am sorry to Monte Cook for I miss read a post earlier and thought MP was involved in the attempt to buy RPGNow. I'll reread the post in fututre Monte brefore I shot off at the keyboard again.


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 7, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> The publishers decide the price, just like at RPGNow or your local game store. Malhavoc prices are all the same for their pdfs as they always have been. Plenty of other products are at about half the print product cost. If you've got an issue with the price, take it up with the publisher, not DriveThru.



Admittedly, I only looked at the FFG section, and found the prices to be amusing.


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## Nightfall (Jun 7, 2004)

Maybe someone forgot to send you the memo Wil.


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## Nick_Danger (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Why did you have to pay a dollar?
> 
> I'll definatly give them a try to get BOEM if its 3.5.




That's what the price came up as when I added it to the basket. It's listed that way in the catalog too.

I didn't feel like messing with it more tonight as to the why, so I canceled the order and closed it down.

I'll check again tomorrow and see if it was a glitch or if there is a min charge for free items.


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 7, 2004)

Nick_Danger said:
			
		

> That's what the price came up as when I added it to the basket. It's listed that way in the catalog too.
> 
> I didn't feel like messing with it more tonight as to the why, so I canceled the order and closed it down.
> 
> I'll check again tomorrow and see if it was a glitch or if there is a min charge for free items.



Maybe you have the wrong item?  I just clicked on it off the front page and it downloaded straight into my reader.


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## Morrus (Jun 7, 2004)

OK, folks ... I'm sensing some combativeness here towards Malhavoc, White Wolf and Drivethrurpg.

I'm certainly not going to tell you where to spend your money (



Spoiler



over at RPGNow on EN Publishing products!


), but I'd like to caution people that they undoubtedly don't know the full story behind Malhavoc's (and FDP's, Necromancer and S&SS') decisions.  We do know that they are all current or ex-members of White Wolf's S&SS umbrella, so there may be some contractual obligations we're all unware of.  There may be a million other reasons why these companies are available exclusively at this new site.

So, of course, spend your money where you feel it is best spent, and for whatever reasons you like.  But I feel that the resentment towards those involved is somewhat unwarranted - I can pretty much guarantee they aren't _trying_ to alienate you!


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## Monte At Home (Jun 7, 2004)

Nick_Danger said:
			
		

> That's what the price came up as when I added it to the basket. It's listed that way in the catalog too.
> 
> I didn't feel like messing with it more tonight as to the why, so I canceled the order and closed it down.
> 
> I'll check again tomorrow and see if it was a glitch or if there is a min charge for free items.




It's a glitch. I've contacted them about it. If you click on the link on their front page, you download it immediately, for free. If you go to our catalog, it's a dollar. Somebody miskeyed, I suppose. Sorry for the inconvenience.


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## Nick_Danger (Jun 7, 2004)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> Maybe you have the wrong item?  I just clicked on it off the front page and it downloaded straight into my reader.




Could be. I'm on the downside of caffeine and heading for bed, so mistakes can and do happen.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

Right, lets not jump to any conclusions. As ya can see, i'm asking questions to get all the info. Malhavoc has always been good to us.

Morrus, you're about to have your 7000th post! How do you feel?!


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## Power_Word_Wedgie (Jun 7, 2004)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> For a lot of us RPGNow! is our Friendly Local Gameshop and these tactics by Malhavoc and White Wolf seem to be designed to put them out of business.
> 
> I know RPGNow!, When I have had problems, I got great customer service from them. To drop them would be a dis-service as a customer and lousy way to repay them.
> 
> ...




Well I was referring to two statements made by others previously:

1)  The items cost as much as retail.  (Though I now see that they might have figured on-line store pricing which can be cheaper than retail)  At any rate, the prices are not as expensive as retail.  They may be comparable to on-line sources, but then I would still have to (a) wait until the on-line source got the book to me by mail and (b) would require that I buy numerous books because they have a minimum order amount before free shipping kicks in.

2)  The site doesn't have the capability to upload images, even with a cable connection.  I was easily able to upload all of the images with a 56K connection.  Though it isn't a rocket fast connection, it wouldn't be anything that would deter me from buying an item from the site.

As for having loyalty to a supplier, I can respect that.  However, such loyalty shouldn't require that a new supplier's reputation should be adversely impacted.  As for running them out of business, the RPGNow thread noted that the total amount of sales affected is less than 5%, so I don't see how it is going to happen.  Companies select new distributors every day.  It's called change and it is a part of life.


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## derverdammte (Jun 7, 2004)

I've always hated RPGNow, so if the new site isn't a tremendous inconvenience (and the DRM files don't present problems), I don't really care where I'm going, as long as it isn't RPGNow.


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## trancejeremy (Jun 7, 2004)

While I've never been fond of RPGNow, and favor competition, having White Wolf barge in, and have exclusive contracts, well, that seems a bit uncompetitive. I favor fair competition. White Wolf has far more money and contacts in the industry than RPGNow, so they have an unfair advantage. Hopefully SJG will get their online store online soon, to get them some competition. 

I'm afraid RPGNow will likely be relegated to indy/amateur RPGs from now on.

Anyway, companies aren't trying to alienate anyone - it's just they simply don't care one way or the other. They just want your money. Duh. Presumably White Wolf and it's employees/subsidaries feel that their own online store with DRM will make more money for them than any other way.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

I just downloaded the free Malhavoc Product from Drive Thru RPG (Narrog hte Earth Serpent) and I've got it on my computer after minor hassle.  I ahvne't tried to copy it yet, but as I understand I can do so.

The main problem I had is that when I tried to activate my DRM account the site said It failed to detect Adobe Reader 6.0 on my computer, but it is.  Luckily, there's a 'Go ahead and activate anyway' link, and everything went fine.

One question, if I triy to read a DRM document with Adobe Reader 5.0, what happens (I have both versions installed on my computer)?

Cutting and pasting text is limited (I can do so 10 times over ten days, as mentioned elsewhere).  That's frustrating.  I hope publishers are able to get the site to relax this feature.\


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## Painfully (Jun 7, 2004)

I think the biggest problem is that DRM doesn't add any value to a PDF product for the consumer.  Nobody likes to be told they can't cut and paste their PDF.  In fact, I would say it's a, "no sale" just based on principle, regardless of any desire I have to cut and paste.

With all due respect to Monte, and his immense effort to offer quality products as PDFs, I won't support any move towards DRM for as long as it limits or handicaps my ability to do what I want with a document.


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## MacMathan (Jun 7, 2004)

Hmmm... I never had a problem with my experience at RPGNow and I do not like the current implementations of DRM I have seen. 

Currently the sight is not correctly detecting my Adobe. 

You have to register your copy of Adobe to use DRM, the first way Adobe pushes for you to do this is MS Passport (yeecch). 

Additionally Adobe does not always have the best track record on their data gathering procedures being up front once you register.

Overall a real discouragement to use but of course if it is the only place I can get certain products then I will have to choose between not buying and putting up with it. I have always been a fan of Malhavocs PDF products so this would be a hard choice for me.

To really test the convenience of the new site I would say that the products should be left up on RPGNow also and see who provides the best value in PDFs and customer experience/service. 

Of course DRM has never proven itself as "value additive" to a product to date so I guess they would have to stand on ease of use and customer service.


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## Gez (Jun 7, 2004)

About the DRM thing, I think it may be the reason for the move. Sword&Sorcery's (and especially Malhavoc's) PDFs are the most pirated of the d20 industry.

(Of course, DRM is not the correct way to adress this problem, as it gives the incentive for people to get cracked versions that are easier to use, but that's a topic for another thread.)


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## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

MacMathan said:
			
		

> Currently the sight is not correctly detecting my Adobe.




I had the same thing happen, and as I posted above, I clicked a link Go ahead and activate anyway, and everything went fine.


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## Yair (Jun 7, 2004)

I never registered my Adobe Reader (or most other programs). The mere thought of getting an MSPassport turns my stomach.  But these are gut reactions, just personal feelings. Objectively, I am forced to say the deal sounds good: assuming your computer is online, purchasing a DRM file allows you to make reasonable use of it, which you can't (legally) get any other way.
The lack of copy-paste is annoying, but I have a feeling the publishers will succeed in relaxing it. Aside from that (and the occasional user with trobules using Adobe 6.0 or whatnot) I don't see any LOGICAL reason not to purchase from the new vendor.

Still, I wouldn't purchase from them. Not even the free trial - it isn't free at all, as it means I will need to enlist myself with Adobe/Microsoft, and support a monopoly, which for me is not worth it.

I wonder how many will refuse to purchase DRM files of new Malhavoc releases but would have purchased them from RPGNow. And I wonder how many would use software to crack the DRM or download illegal copies as a result of the DRM. I also wonder if this new scheme will really bring in the rest of the industry into the pdf market.
I guess I'll have to keep on wondering


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

Any person who legally buys a product, typically wont go the extra length to crack the file.

Typically its those that never intend to buy the file to begin with that crack it. 

They buy one file, and spend time to crack it, or copy it and reconstruct it so its a useable normal pdf. Its fun to them, its a challenge. 

These security measures will do nothing, nothing in the longrun, to prevent piracy. Any and all software security can be hacked and cracked. 

I applaud that people are trying to fight piracy. But the methods are ineffective and only hurt the consumer. Because the pirates will remove the security, while the consumer still suffers. 

Also, it has a chance of driving honest consumers to become pirates themselves.


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## talinthas (Jun 7, 2004)

Honestly, folks?  this service just started.  why not give it a month or so before we start lighting the torches?


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## pogre (Jun 7, 2004)

talinthas said:
			
		

> Honestly, folks?  this service just started.  why not give it a month or so before we start lighting the torches?




I think most people are concerned about the format the site has chosen to offer its products in - it is entirely fair to be critical of that from the beginning. As for the slow site issues and prices - yes, I agree, give them time.


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## wedgeski (Jun 7, 2004)

Whether we as consumers like it or not, piracy is the bogey-man of most industries which depend on copyright to make money. Solid DRM might actually *encourage* the bigger players to participate in the further growth of the PDF industry. I suggest everyone stops whining about it. And the first person that says they will rip-off a Malhavoc product to 'teach them a lesson' can go and stick their head in a furnace because no-one (I hope) will be fooled by their bull.

For the record, I think this will be a long-deserved wake-up call for RPGNow. They're great guys and I have had no problems with their service, but their web site is attrocious. As for DTRPG, I had no problems loading/using their site but the gaudy design doesn't, to me, show the class needed to deliver a knockout-blow to RPGN. Still, I suppose when you get the exclusive deals, you're under no obligation to provide any other incentives for use.


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## Elephant (Jun 7, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> About the DRM thing, I think it may be the reason for the move. Sword&Sorcery's (and especially Malhavoc's) PDFs are the most pirated of the d20 industry.
> 
> (Of course, DRM is not the correct way to adress this problem, as it gives the incentive for people to get cracked versions that are easier to use, but that's a topic for another thread.)




If I ever find myself wishing to buy Malhavoc pdfs, I will seek unrestricted ones from the peer-to-peer network of the month rather than deal with the lockdown that DriveThruRPG.com will impose on me.  Beyond the annoyance of opening most links in new windows (Damnit, if I want a new window, I'll hit the command for one!), I'm not happy with the hoops involved in the process.  Uninstall and reinstall the Acrobat reader?  No thanks.  Set up a special "DRM" account with Adobe or Microsoft?  No thanks.  Not be able to read my legally purchased possessions on whatever machine I want, whenever I want?  No thanks.

Too many of my rights are denied by the use of this DRM package.  Monte, I'll send you a check if I pirate your pdfs from kazaa, but I won't buy them from such an offensive and cumbersome site as drivethru.  It's just not worth my money to buy such crippled books.


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## Gez (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Any person who legally buys a product, typically wont go the extra length to crack the file.
> 
> Typically its those that never intend to buy the file to begin with that crack it.




Depends. When you need a feature that's disabled, like the copy/paste. Same thing happen with "protected" CD. When you can't read them in your player, you buy another player, or you download MP3s? The industry wants the former, but it's a pipe dream. Especially when there's half a dozen different formats of protected CDs that requires half a dozen different players...


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## RCanning (Jun 7, 2004)

DRM has often meant that I can't print any protected PDFs I have got (from non RPG stuff), because where I get my stuff printed uses locked down machines that are not connected to the internet and wont allow changes to their software.

This generally means that the PDF wont 'register' on the machine, and that it can not be printed. Therefore instead of my PDFs being colour laser duplex printed on very nice machines, I am stuck with black and white laser which is single sided and really really slow; because that is what I have at home.

I also tend to do a lot of PDF shopping at work, so this will kill any impulse buys; which are about 80% of my purchases. I just can't help myself.

The other problem is compatibility. I have seen DRM PDFs that will only open on a Windows machine (I use a Mac), or only open if you are running the latest version of Acrobat Reader (which is often incompatible with running an older version of Acrobat full), or only open if you are running the latest version of Windows (finding out that without an online Windows XP box which was fully registered with Microsoft was a pain for a PDF a friend got).

Next, how does this new store deal with International customers. I hope it is better than my previous experiences with a WW run online store, where they had International Shipping charges on their website, but would not accept my credit card because I was outside the US. When I asked them about it I was told "International shipping is there for valid customers who want to send stuff to friends overseas." Basically I was told that if I don't live in America, I am not a "valid customer".

All of these things could be good, or they could be bad. I hope that what we get is an online store where anyone with an internet connection can purchase a PDF, burn it to a CD, take to anywhere and print it, and also have copies across their computers. I write at work, so I use my PDFs there. I write at home, I use my PDFs there. And I keep them on my iPod so when I am at a friends house and want to do some work, I can open them there as well. If DRM kills that, then that will factor into my decision about how much the product is worth. If it was $10 unlocked, I would probably spend no more than $6 if it had tight lockdowns.

Here's hoping that Malhavoc, who write and publish fantastic material, don't alienate their client base too much.

Richard Canning


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## BryonD (Jun 7, 2004)

Morrus said:
			
		

> I can pretty much guarantee they aren't _trying_ to alienate you!




"Trying" may not be relevant.
At a minimum the only changes I can tell are happening are:
A) Vendor Exclusivity   and
B) Some degree of reduced product utility

Both of these are anti-consumer.  I don't see any upside for the consumer.
That is alienating.
Sometimes you accomplish things without even trying.

Of course the sky is not falling, but my tendency to buy product from some companies is.


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## WCrawford (Jun 7, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> I know that change can be off-putting. That's why we put out a brand new free (short) pdf on that site called Narrog the Earth Serpent so you could give the new vendor a try for free. I think that if you actually try DriveThru you'll find that it's not hard (you need the latest version of Adobe reader, but that's free too). They've got some nice How To and FAQ pages that you'll find to be very helpful (and if you want a laugh, click on the speaker on the menu board, in fact do it a number of times).




Its really crappy when a supposedly free product has a charge attached to it.


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## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

Most of my Malhavoc PDF purchases are made at work because I have a cable connection at work.  If DRM limits my ability to port my legally bought PDFs, then I will not buy them any longer.  As a person who have purchased almost every Malhavoc PDF, I am a bit mad at having this happen.

Sorry, Monte, but I will not register with my home computer and if I cannot use Malhavoc PDFs from home, then I cannot buy Malhavoc PDFs.  I can wait for the print products, but there will be far fewer buys on those.  I love your work, but extended hassel does not work for me, especially considering the trouble I have had with WW in the past.

And I was looking forward to the Book of Iron Might, darn it!  This is depressing.

Any chance that the print products can come out sooner?


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## isidorus (Jun 7, 2004)

Any game company using DRM for thier Pdf's will also lose sales to me on thier print products. I am only going to support RpgNow especially Phil Reed products. 
What I do not understand is how DRM is going to help the companies what so ever, since I have been reading all these threads here and at Rpg.net.   

Seems to me the companies are going down the slippery slope of the RIAA and MPAA have been going. Is really in their best interests to treat everyone like a "pirate"    I do not support piracy in any form, just to make that clear. I think this is going to hurt your sales somewhat. Semms to me in the using DRM, everyone is now considered a perviced thief.

To be a little snarky here:

I wonder how long it will be before they band together and sue thier customers like the RIAA for perceived "piracy".


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## 3catcircus (Jun 7, 2004)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> Whether we as consumers like it or not, piracy is the bogey-man of most industries which depend on copyright to make money. Solid DRM might actually *encourage* the bigger players to participate in the further growth of the PDF industry. I suggest everyone stops whining about it. And the first person that says they will rip-off a Malhavoc product to 'teach them a lesson' can go and stick their head in a furnace because no-one (I hope) will be fooled by their bull.




This is the most completely misunderstood aspect of copyright.  Copyright is not now, nor has it ever been to allow someone to make money, or even in the broader sense to protect authors' work from those who would steal it - copyright has always been solely about encouraging innovation and new creation, as per the Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8) " ...to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts."

Additionally, copyright violation was always a _civil_ offense rather than a criminal one.  Now, thanks to the efforts of BSA, RIAA, et al. to have the government do their bidding by lobbying and getting the NET act and the DMCA turned into laws, copyright violation is a criminal act.

Also, the term "piracy" is a misnomer - according to international law, piracy can only occur on the high seas...

While I agree that people should be able to be paid for their efforts, the fact of the matter is that it is far better to figure in the costs of copyright violation as a matter of doing business rather than spend time and money agonizing over it in a never-ending battle.  Retail operations already book the fact that they'll have a rough percentage of loss due to theft - many retail stores don't even prosecute shoplifters unless they are also employees because it costs more than just writing off the loss when they do their taxes.  If someone wants to break DRM badly enough, it will happen no matter how much money and time is invested otherwise.  It has happened every time it occurs.  More importantly, publishers will never keep up with the pirates, who have the advantage of more time, more desire, and, in most cases, much more intelligence than the people who devise DRM or any type of copy protection.  Just take a lesson from the German military - for every code invented, there will almost always be a code breaker, given enough time, effort and brains to figure it out.  Fact is, most of the companies that offer some type of DRM are charlatans - every single DRM implementation has only been implemented by breaking the product it is protecting - whether that is a password/serial, a dongle, encryption, or a watermark.  

Also hard to get a grip around is the idea that "copying" is somehow theft - legal theory aside, if I leave you with the original, how can it be theft?  How is downloading a copy off of the internet any different than photocopying a paper version from the library or giving your friend a tape of an album, other than ease of use?  The argument that this represents a lost sale is fallacious because, debate aside, common-sense dictates that it represents someone who will never have purchased a copy or who will end up buying a legitimate copy.

Generally, people really don't want to be told how and when they can use something they just spent their hard-earned money on.  How would it feel to be told "you can't wear that shirt with those pants" (wives notwithstanding)?  How about "you can only drive your car twice a week and you have to use Getty gas"?  

Bottom line - make a quality product that people can use any way they want and they will buy it.  I freely admit that I've gotten pdfs of many rpg titles off of the net - but I also own a paper version of every one of them.  The paper versions have good "hand feel," but when I'm not at home and need a quick rules lookup or want to print out disposable map copies, I use the pdf.


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## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

> Additionally, copyright violation was always a civil offense rather than a criminal one. Now, thanks to the efforts of BSA, RIAA, et al. to have the government do their bidding by lobbying and getting the NET act and the DMCA turned into laws, copyright violation is a criminal act.




This is incorrect. Copyright laws have long had criminal components to them. The loss of rationality is that before, it always had to be demonstrated you did damage by breaching copyrights.


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## Joshua Randall (Jun 7, 2004)

www.montecook.com/mpress_Drivethru_PR.html said:
			
		

> DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site, and it offers secure downloads using Adobe's secure server technology. Basically what iTunes is for music, DriveThruRPG.com is for roleplaying games. Like PDFs, e-Books are electronic editions of physical books, but they use Adobe's Digital Rights Management (DRM) technology for copyright protection. *This secure technology is designed to help combat Internet piracy*.





Listen up, all you smug software pirates: you have driven Malhavoc into using Digital Rights Management to protect their assets. Next time you are blithely stealing someone's intellectual property, reasoning that 'no one gets hurt', think about everyone on this thread who will be inconvenienced by the shift to DRM.

But you Internet thieves never bother to think about anything other than yourselves, do you?


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## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

Personally, I have never once used KaZaa etc.  This move is akin to forcing people to register when you buy a book.  They get to "legally" track how you use their product, force you to use it in a way that they choose, and make you like it.

The only thing that makes the PDF market worthwhile is low prices and ease of use.  When I have to register Adobe etc on EVERY computer I own just to port a PDF file, then it becomes useless to use.  

This is a really crappy thing to do to loyal customers.


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## The Voice of Reason (Jun 7, 2004)

TANSTAAFL.

Beware software distributors bearing gifts.


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## Orryn Emrys (Jun 7, 2004)

What exactly _are_ the copy-paste limitations of the DRM format?  Without the ability to use these functions liberally enough to enter necessary information into my campaign management software (in my case, DM Genie), it could seriously cripple the product's usefulness to me as a PDF.  :\


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## wedgeski (Jun 7, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> ...copyright has always been solely about encouraging innovation and new creation, as per the Constitution (Article I, Section 8, Clause 8) " ...to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts."
> 
> Additionally, copyright violation was always a _civil_ offense rather than a criminal one.  Now, thanks to the efforts of BSA, RIAA, et al. to have the government do their bidding by lobbying and getting the NET act and the DMCA turned into laws, copyright violation is a criminal act.
> 
> Also, the term "piracy" is a misnomer - according to international law, piracy can only occur on the high seas...




You're right. But since I don't, unlike you it would appear, live in the 18th century, I'll continue to use these term as they has been adopted in contemporary language.

In any case, I think you missed my point or I didn't make it clear enough: it doesn't matter what the bottom line actually is on the costs of internet piracy, because the *perceived* threat is enough. Only time, and improved auditing and accounting, will truly tell. As it stands, opponents of digital rights protection will always say that piracy should just be a cost of sale; those who actually have money to lose will tend to say the opposite.




			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> Retail operations already book the fact that they'll have a rough percentage of loss due to theft - many retail stores don't even prosecute shoplifters unless they are also employees because it costs more than just writing off the loss when they do their taxes.




And yet they go to extreme lengths to *prevent* the theft in the first place (electronic tagging, surveillance, store detectives, etc.). You can bet that if they could categorically remove that assumed loss from their balance sheet because of fool-proof anti-theft devices, they would. Neither does the fact that it's difficult to stop imply that they shouldn't *try* (as portions of the rest of your post appear to imply).




			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> Also hard to get a grip around is the idea that "copying" is somehow theft - legal theory aside, if I leave you with the original, how can it be theft?  How is downloading a copy off of the internet any different than photocopying a paper version from the library or giving your friend a tape of an album, other than ease of use?  The argument that this represents a lost sale is fallacious because, debate aside, common-sense dictates that it represents someone who will never have purchased a copy or who will end up buying a legitimate copy.




As always, I was waiting for this. I can go for the 'it doesn't represent a loss of sale' argument, but asserting that it isn't, somehow, theft, simply because you can steal the item in question without the original owner losing possession is ludicrous. It is also, as it happens, the number one Case for the Defense trotted out by casual software pirates on the 'net.

If you download and gain any utility whatsoever from a PDF, when someone else has taken the honest route and paid the creator for their work, you are a thief. You are stealing intellectual property without rewarding the creator. You are presuming upon their hard work with little or no respect for the time and expertise that goes into creating it. And by doing so, you are contributing to the perceived threat of internet piracy and forcing companies like Malhavoc to consider DRM as a necessary evil. Don't believe me? This thread speaks for itself.




			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> How would it feel to be told "you can't wear that shirt with those pants" (wives notwithstanding)?  How about "you can only drive your car twice a week and you have to use Getty gas"?




Bathing in the glorious light of the free market, I would laugh in the face of the vendor and take my money elsewhere. But that's not what you're miffed about. You're miffed that the car salesman is the only shop in town who sells that car you want so badly, and is leveraging his position to force you to use it only on Tuesdays and Thursdays. That's just tough luck. Either live with it, or don't buy it. But do *not* sneak into his lot after midnight, steal his car, and pretend your actions are justified.




			
				3catcircus said:
			
		

> I freely admit that I've gotten pdfs of many rpg titles off of the net - but I also own a paper version of every one of them.  The paper versions have good "hand feel," but when I'm not at home and need a quick rules lookup or want to print out disposable map copies, I use the pdf.




Good for you! That's completely irrelevant though, aside from the fact that your download encourages the guys who PDF and freely (or otherwise) distribute intellectual property in the first place. I did it myself with the D&D core rule books a couple of years ago though, so I have no legs to stand on there.


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## Henry (Jun 7, 2004)

Wedgeski, I'm pretty sure 3catcircus lives in the 21st century. (When he's not playing D&D at least.) Insults really aren't called for.

*And I said this in another thread, and I'll repeat it here: Let's please be civil to fellow posters.* 

I know this is a new deal, and some see it as a raw deal, and emotions can run high, but I'd like to remind us we're all here to discuss, not fight.
Thank you.

Henry, Moderator


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## Vascant (Jun 7, 2004)

First:  I do not enjoy a website looking thru my computer to see if I have something installed or not.  Comes with the MYOB's style of thought.  If they want to know, just ask me then I have the right to decide if I wish to answer or not.  

Second:  If I register a product or not is also my business, I normally choose not to because that usually only leads to new and improved spam letting me know of things that I really didn't care about.  Have a new version, great.  I will find out when I need it not when you decide I need to know.

Third:  Going exclusive, just ignorant.  Seems more like a dog on a leash to me, imagine if WotC remained that way and we never had D20 or OGL.  Oh the dark ages of D&D, how I remember them.

Fourth:  I see no reason to change from RPGNow, they have provided me with quality serviced for I think over 2 years, maybe 3 now.  I have spent well over $2000 there (*smirk* ask my wife) and not once I am lucky to say have I felt the service was anything but fantastic. (Please note, I do not work for RPGNow nor have anything for sale on their website)

Fifth:  For whatever reason some publishers are changing, thats your business, you are taking a risk of losing customers because I know for myself, you have lost me as one.  Not to say I will not pick something up at my FLGS but PDF's I do not see a reason to change my current spending habits.  My reason for this is simple, if me as a customer mattered or was important to your business, then you would have asked me something to the effect would this change effect my desire for your products.  I do wish you luck though and hope to see you return to where I am spending my money.


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## Eridanis (Jun 7, 2004)

The issue of copyright infringement obviously has some relevance to this thread. However, extended discussion of that should be left to another thread; let's keep the focus on the topic, please.


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## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

The Voice of Reason said:
			
		

> TANSTAAFL.
> 
> Beware software distributors bearing gifts.




No doubt.  It sounds like DRM tracks your use of the software.  Basically, what they're saying is that we do not own the PDF book that we BUY.  Instead, our purchase only leases the book from the vendor.

What really gets me, is that this will not affect people who KaZaa in the slightest. Those jerks will just break the code and get the type of use of the product that honest people are denied.

You know, the other good thing about RPGnow is that you can get the download link for a product you purchased anytime, so loss of product does not harm you.  Now, if my PC crashed etc, then I will have to buy the book again!  I am sure that DriveThru will not recognize prior purchase of the book (not that I want to buy using the Nazi restrictions).  Heck, I'll bet that you cannot get the download link again after the fact at the new place, I have never known WW to be that nice.


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## wedgeski (Jun 7, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Wedgeski, I'm pretty sure 3catcircus lives in the 21st century. (When he's not playing D&D at least.) Insults really aren't called for.




My apologies to you and 3catcircus...


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (Jun 7, 2004)

This is bad news for me 

I can't access to Acrobat site for some reason. I can't download Acrobat 6 and I can't activate Acrobat E-Book Reader either - which I had to spend a week of web searches to find somewhere other than on Acrobat's website. As a result I won't be able to buy the Book of Iron Might, so I will have no choice but to buy it in book format.

I had to buy a product from Amazon _twice_ because of this Acrobat problem, and of course you can't refund e-books. (Amazon wouldn't even _let_ me download the product without Acrobat 6. It's not like I could open it with my Acrobat 5.) I had to get Microsoft e-book reader to do open up the product.

As other people have mentioned, e-books can be a pain. (I saw Acrobat E-Book reader at a friend's house... it's better than Microsoft but still a pain.)

So I guess my position is: make it available in Microsoft E-book format to get me to buy. (Even so, I don't know why the e-book has to look _so_ different from Acrobat Reader.)


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## Thanatos (Jun 7, 2004)

While I am going to avoid the DRM debate save to say my stance is this: It is my personal belief DRM is just another way to screw the consumer why crying protection against piracy.

While I know this counts for nothing, I have purchased every single PDF Malhavoc has ever released and even bought the 3.5 update to the BOEM's. 

I have used e-book/adobe acrobat activation and such before...I deleted the e-book I legitimately purchased and went to a lower version of acrobat. It was a pain to use...it was a pain to try and transfer the secure pdf around because I move things between my 3 computers and pda...it is a pain to have to register my pc's with adobe (I hate that...refuse to do it)...

This is going to be another one of those "I bought the game legitimately, but the security forces me to find a copy-protection breaker so I can actually utilize my product effectivelyor (ala NWN) use my game at all." and that is too much trouble, I'd rather just spend my money on another product that doesn't give me headaches.

So, sadly, I will no longer be supporting Monte and Sue with my purchases once the switchover is complete.


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## The Voice of Reason (Jun 7, 2004)

I'm often on the lookout for a good deal, but deals that are _too_ good, that seem to pull out every method of sweeting the bargain and increasing its appeal, tend to turn me off.

I begin to wonder why someone's trying so hard.  There is a balance between the cost of a thing and its value -- and if the value seems much greater than the cost, I look for hidden clauses in the contract.

This new company is going to great lengths to make themselves look appealing, even giving out a free book every week.  That makes me suspicious.  What's so wrong with what they're offerring that they can't permit it to speak for itself?  Heavy promotion often suggests that something isn't good enough to drum up positive word-of-mouth.


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## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> You know, the other good thing about RPGnow is that you can get the download link for a product you purchased anytime, so loss of product does not harm you.  Now, if my PC crashed etc, then I will have to buy the book again!  I am sure that DriveThru will not recognize prior purchase of the book (not that I want to buy using the Nazi restrictions).  Heck, I'll bet that you cannot get the download link again after the fact at the new place, I have never known WW to be that nice.



They explicitly spell it out that they will not replace deleted/lost e-books, yo uhave to buy them again.

Sure, you can use the backup function of My Bookshelf to backup an e-book, but that represents something I have to do above and beyond my normal back procedure, which lessens the value of a DRM protected even more to me.  (If possible)

Kinda ironic that you can't move your PORTABLE document format file from one machine to another without lighting the hoops on fire and jumping through.


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## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> They explicitly spell it out that they will not replace deleted/lost e-books, yo uhave to buy them again.
> 
> Sure, you can use the backup function of My Bookshelf to backup an e-book, but that represents something I have to do above and beyond my normal back procedure, which lessens the value of a DRM protected even more to me.  (If possible)
> 
> Kinda ironic that you can't move your PORTABLE document format file from one machine to another without lighting the hoops on fire and jumping through.




I figured, but thanks for the confirmation.

I still find it hard to believe that Monte would do this.  For someone who was a real pioneer in the RPG PDF format, this feels like a slap in the face.


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## wedgeski (Jun 7, 2004)

The Voice of Reason said:
			
		

> This new company is going to great lengths to make themselves look appealing, even giving out a free book every week.  That makes me suspicious.  What's so wrong with what they're offerring that they can't permit it to speak for itself?  Heavy promotion often suggests that something isn't good enough to drum up positive word-of-mouth.




That's a bit harsh! As a startup, they're bound to be pulling out all the stops to attract visitors.


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## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> From the ongoing thread about DriveThruRPG:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1583464&postcount=10
> 
> Malhavoc has ended their relationship with RPGnow to go exclusive with DriveThruRPG. DriveThruRPG distributes digital rights managed PDFs exclusively. If you have considered picking up some Malhavoc PDFs and have been putting it off, now is probably the time. Otherwise, your only option will to be jumping through hoops to use your files on different computers, or even to print them if you use some avenue like a print shop or a university printing service to print your PDFs, and you are even limited in how much you can copy to the clipboard in a given period, for those who might be using PDFs for their house rules or OGL projects.




Too late.  I just check RPGnow and there are no products listed for Malhavoc.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

BTW, Monte Cook's latest Line of Site talks about Drivethru RPG and the DRM files


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## ikazuchi (Jun 7, 2004)

1) I have bought every Malhavoc Press book (some twice over cause the format patches wouldn't apply).

2) Software theft (a.k.a. Software Piracy) sucks. I download alot of RPG books from newsgroups, flip through them, then either order the print version or delete the files. I don't have access to a decent FLGS around me, so how else am I supposed to browse?

3) Malhavoc (and every other exclusive vendor of DriveThru) has just told me I can't do business with them for the following reason: I use Linux. There is NO Acrobat 6 for linux. There is no way for me to USE the products I would buy.

This really annoys me. I have been awaiting the new MP stuff (and hell, I'd probably bankrupt myself on DriveThru if it wasn't for their DRM keeping me from doing business with them) but now, everything that made PDF attractive (y'know, actually being able to USE it) has been taken away from me.

I realise that I'm a small minority of those who purchase products from MP and other RPG publishers, but like DriveThru says, its not like RPG publishers are making a mint. All I see is that MP (and *any other* publisher who utilizes this DRM scheme) have lost my business. And it hasn't been my choice. It hasn't been a 'DRM sucks, I'm not doing busniess with them' thing from me. This is entirely the publisher saying 'Thanks for spend over a hundred dollars on my products. I'd love to do more business with you, but, you see, I can't. Your one of those _LINUX_ people'.

I have no issue with publishers wanting to protect the IP. I understand that most publishers wouldn't even touch the PDF market without DriveThru and Adobe's DRM. That still makes it no easier to have the ability to order their products in my prefered (and usually, cheaper) format removed from me. For the publishers on DriveThru, to me, its the same as them not selling PDFs at all.

No, I take that back. Its worse, cause I know they exist but *I can't use them*.

Monte, exactly what was your reason for going exclusively with DriveThru? Was it to prod other publishers to using them, and hence grow the PDF market? Why drop a distribution path that (I thought until now) was doing great for you?

Sorry, I can no longer do business with you....


----------



## DanMcS (Jun 7, 2004)

Malhavoc has been releasing PITA, crippled OGL products for a long time.  Now they're just releasing PITA, crippled products, period.  I'm not surprised.


----------



## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> From the ongoing thread about DriveThruRPG:
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1583464&postcount=10
> 
> Malhavoc has ended their relationship with RPGnow to go exclusive with DriveThruRPG. DriveThruRPG distributes digital rights managed PDFs exclusively. If you have considered picking up some Malhavoc PDFs and have been putting it off, now is probably the time. Otherwise, your only option will to be jumping through hoops to use your files on different computers, or even to print them if you use some avenue like a print shop or a university printing service to print your PDFs, and you are even limited in how much you can copy to the clipboard in a given period, for those who might be using PDFs for their house rules or OGL projects.




Too late.  I just check RPGnow and there are no products listed for Malhavoc.


----------



## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I figured, but thanks for the confirmation.
> 
> I still find it hard to believe that Monte would do this.  For someone who was a real pioneer in the RPG PDF format, this feels like a slap in the face.



Yeah, FWIW, I keep trying to post a link to where I found that statement, but I've been waitng an hour for the FAQ to load.

EDIT:

Here it is, finally.  After the lengthy wait, scroll down to the "How do I backup my eBooks?" entry.


----------



## 3catcircus (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> This is incorrect. Copyright laws have long had criminal components to them. The loss of rationality is that before, it always had to be demonstrated you did damage by breaching copyrights.




My mistake - I should have caveated my statement to include the "did damage=criminal" stuff.  In the context of the RIAA raids on music downloaders, I would argue that criminalizing a teenagers' downloading of the latest pop tart "music" is not damaging in any way (other than to their ears and brain cells...)


----------



## SteveC (Jun 7, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> They explicitly spell it out that they will not replace deleted/lost e-books, yo uhave to buy them again.
> 
> Sure, you can use the backup function of My Bookshelf to backup an e-book, but that represents something I have to do above and beyond my normal back procedure, which lessens the value of a DRM protected even more to me. (If possible)
> 
> Kinda ironic that you can't move your PORTABLE document format file from one machine to another without lighting the hoops on fire and jumping through.



Wonderful :\ . It sounds to me like this technology is the new DIVX. All the advantages to the company, none to the consumer. Has there ever been technology like this that has been successful, I wonder?

The PDF industry was bound to go through this development, much like DVDs did with DIVX. The thing is, software, music and PDF piracy is here to stay, and *it's not going away*, no matter what companies try to do. A business that wants to survive needs to be aware of this. Now I don't like filesharing and illegal downloading, but it is a reality, just like tape recorders were and CDRs are right now. Doing some quick research, I see  that DRM technology *has already been broken*, so I have no idea what is gained by using it to combat piracy. Like other technology used in this area, all it is going to do is frustrate legitimate buyers.

Is it possible to have a business plan that takes file sharing into account and lets a company thrive despite it? Well, I have seen a number of ideas about how to do this that are applicable to a company like Monte's, but nothing has been proven either way yet.

Still, I think that the torches and pitchforks can wait a little bit, especially in Monte and S&S's case: these are some good guys who are trying something new and hoping for the best.

Just my $.02.


----------



## Grazzt (Jun 7, 2004)

ikazuchi said:
			
		

> 1)
> 
> 3) Malhavoc (and every other exclusive vendor of DriveThru) has just told me I can't do business with them for the following reason: I use Linux. There is NO Acrobat 6 for linux. There is no way for me to USE the products I would buy.




Have you tried XPDF? I know it will open encrypted PDFs and maintain the encryption (in the sense that if the creator disables copy/paste, it remains disabled for example). I havent tried the prog on my Slack-box or Fedora 2 box...yet.


----------



## wocky (Jun 7, 2004)

Every time I buy a PDF product I print the whole thing and proceed to ignore it inside a CD. As long as I can keep doing this, there's no problem...

Still, the move angers me quite a bit, for reasons already mentioned. Specially the part where I might eventually loose my PDF copy and are unable to print it again (in case I somehow loose or damager my printed version).

I have a number of freely available products that work as a virtual printer driver and allow me to "Print to PDF" from any windows application... I still have to try it out, but it'll probably allow me to get a "clean" PDF (though I'd loose the bookmarks, table of content, and other advanced features). If that's so, then it's incredibly easy to break this copy protection.


----------



## Psion (Jun 7, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Too late.  I just check RPGnow and there are no products listed for Malhavoc.




Well, I'll have to edit the thread title.

I am glad I bought the 3.5 updates last night when I did. I hope I was able to warn someone in time to grab some of their favorite titles in "non-PITA" format.


----------



## 3catcircus (Jun 7, 2004)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> In any case, I think you missed my point or I didn't make it clear enough: it doesn't matter what the bottom line actually is on the costs of internet piracy, because the *perceived* threat is enough. Only time, and improved auditing and accounting, will truly tell. As it stands, opponents of digital rights protection will always say that piracy should just be a cost of sale; those who actually have money to lose will tend to say the opposite.




Perhaps you don't quite grasp the social implications as well as you might think - yes - perception is reality.  At some point, politicians will perceive that the bad corporation is oppressing the little guy, due to political and activist pressures, and will eventually either repeal the existing new digital laws or risk their re-election chances.  That point isn't here yet.



> And yet they go to extreme lengths to *prevent* the theft in the first place (electronic tagging, surveillance, store detectives, etc.). You can bet that if they could categorically remove that assumed loss from their balance sheet because of fool-proof anti-theft devices, they would. Neither does the fact that it's difficult to stop imply that they shouldn't *try* (as portions of the rest of your post appear to imply).




I never said they shouldn't try - my point was that they shouldn't try if they recognize that it will be too costly to try to begin with.  If your bottom line can support it, go ahead and try.





> As always, I was waiting for this. I can go for the 'it doesn't represent a loss of sale' argument, but asserting that it isn't, somehow, theft, simply because you can steal the item in question without the original owner losing possession is ludicrous. It is also, as it happens, the number one Case for the Defense trotted out by casual software pirates on the 'net.
> 
> If you download and gain any utility whatsoever from a PDF, when someone else has taken the honest route and paid the creator for their work, you are a thief. You are stealing intellectual property without rewarding the creator. You are presuming upon their hard work with little or no respect for the time and expertise that goes into creating it. And by doing so, you are contributing to the perceived threat of internet piracy and forcing companies like Malhavoc to consider DRM as a necessary evil. Don't believe me? This thread speaks for itself.




You obviously didn't grasp my point about copyright - the author is not *supposed* to be rewarded for his or her work - the work is the reward in and of itself.  Copyrights, despite modern laws, *still* exist to foster innovation, not to make someone an income.  

Now, as to taking vs. buying - unfortunately, this seems to only apply to people and not to governments or corporations.  I would buy your argument if it was fair and equitable, but too many times, governments exercise eminent domain in order to provide large corporations with a place to build a new site of some sort.  In the case of a small pdf publisher, it *could* mean someone doesn't get paid if someone downloads a copy off of a website or a p2p network.  Once again - it is completely impossible to say with any degree of certainty that someone making a copy hurts a company's profits.



> Bathing in the glorious light of the free market, I would laugh in the face of the vendor and take my money elsewhere. But that's not what you're miffed about. You're miffed that the car salesman is the only shop in town who sells that car you want so badly, and is leveraging his position to force you to use it only on Tuesdays and Thursdays. That's just tough luck. Either live with it, or don't buy it. But do *not* sneak into his lot after midnight, steal his car, and pretend your actions are justified.




Actually, no I'm not miffed about anything.  And - your analogy doesn't work.  The correct analogy would be sneaking into the town next door and buying the exact car from a different dealer who didn't have any restrictions on it after you bought it - you completely missed my point - that if I buy something, no matter what it is, I have the right to do with it what I want.  Heck - I can even decide to get a wrecking ball and knock my own house down, so long as I don't try to claim the insurance.



> Good for you! That's completely irrelevant though, aside from the fact that your download encourages the guys who PDF and freely (or otherwise) distribute intellectual property in the first place. I did it myself with the D&D core rule books a couple of years ago though, so I have no legs to stand on there.




Actually - it isn't irrelevant - as an example - despite the RIAAs crying poor and showing selected data, if you looked at *all* of the data from CD sales, it would be completely obvious to the most casual observer that CD sales have gone up in the era of Napster and p2p networks.  Of course - no one can say whether sales have gone up due to people sampling the music, due to increased personal income, or any other factor.


----------



## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

SteveC said:
			
		

> Still, I think that the torches and pitchforks can wait a little bit, especially in Monte and S&S's case: these are some good guys who are trying something new and hoping for the best.
> 
> Just my $.02.




No pitchforks, just simple reality, I will not buy a product that restricts my right to use it.  Nor will I just hand over information to Microsoft, Adobe or WW so that they can search my computer to make sure I am a good boy.

I have never stolen anything in my entire life.  I do not feel like spending my money on a product, yet still be treated as a criminal.


----------



## DanMcS (Jun 7, 2004)

SteveC said:
			
		

> Is it possible to have a business plan that takes file sharing into account and lets a company thrive despite it? Well, I have seen a number of ideas about how to do this that are applicable to a company like Monte's, but nothing has been proven either way yet.




Yes.  And another

The software industry has been dealing with both open source, ie, freely available and copyable, software, and with pirating of popular products, for decades.  And doing quite well.  If the publishing industry hasn't figured it out yet, it's not because solutions don't exist.  It's because they're clinging to their outdated models of product development and marketing, and rather than adapting to reality, they're going down blind allies like this crippleware DRM to keep their old reality.  It's comfortable.  They understand it.  And it's dead on its feat, it just hasn't realized it yet.


----------



## wedgeski (Jun 7, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Perhaps you don't quite grasp the social implications as well as you might think - yes - perception is reality.<snip>




I think I'd better leave this well alone or else I'm going to get beaten with the moderator stick again.


----------



## WizarDru (Jun 7, 2004)

SteveC said:
			
		

> Wonderful :\ . It sounds to me like this technology is the new DIVX. All the advantages to the company, none to the consumer. Has there ever been technology like this that has been successful, I wonder?



 I was awfully confused for a moment, until I realized you weren't referring to DivX, but the original DIVX (my confusion, not a lack of clarity on your part). 



			
				SteveC said:
			
		

> The PDF industry was bound to go through this development, much like DVDs did with DIVX.



 For clarity's sake, DIVX was a completely different situation in comparison to DVDs than DRM versions of PDFs.  DIVX was never meant as a way to counteract piracy, but a way for Circuit City (and ONLY Circuit City) to bilk as much money as humanly possible from consumers.  It only had any initial market penetration due mostly to consumer ignorance and expensive (at that time) DVD prices.  Back when DVDs were new, the idea of paying a rental price of $4.95 for limited viewings over a short period of time didn't seem like a terrible idea...to some.

 In practice, DIVX was doomed from the start for a host of reasons.  




			
				SteveC said:
			
		

> Still, I think that the torches and pitchforks can wait a little bit, especially in Monte and S&S's case: these are some good guys who are trying something new and hoping for the best.



 I'll give Monte the benefit of the doubt, but I think this may be a serious misstep.  I really have little to no desire to use Microsoft's Passport system, especially considering how poorly implemented it was when I last used it.

 Is there a better solution?  I don't know, yet.  But there seem to be a lot of little things I have to do to get access to a PDF through driverthrurpg.com, and I don't like the convuluted process.  At this moment, I'm leaning towards waiting an additional two months for print copies of material, rather than involve myself with the whole DRM fiasco.


----------



## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Yes.  And another
> 
> The software industry has been dealing with both open source, ie, freely available and copyable, software, and with pirating of popular products, for decades.  And doing quite well.  If the publishing industry hasn't figured it out yet, it's not because solutions don't exist.  It's because they're clinging to their outdated models of product development and marketing, and rather than adapting to reality, they're going down blind allies like this crippleware DRM to keep their old reality.  It's comfortable.  They understand it.  And it's dead on its feat, it just hasn't realized it yet.



Spot on.  As Microsoft's Steve Balmer says, (paraphrasing) if there is piracy going on, you want them to pirate your stuff, because if the notion ever enters their heads to actually pay for software, you want them to be hooked on your's.


----------



## WizarDru (Jun 7, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> You obviously didn't grasp my point about copyright - the author is not *supposed* to be rewarded for his or her work - the work is the reward in and of itself. Copyrights, despite modern laws, *still* exist to foster innovation, not to make someone an income.



 I'm not disagreeing with you, but could you clarify this point?  I don't think I'm following you, here.  How do copyrights, in general, foster innnovation?  Are you saying that, by preventing blantant plagarism, copyright law forces artists to create less derivative works?  As a side to that, do you feel there should be no professional artists, or are you just saying that the law was not intended to get involved in the process of income at all?


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I do not feel like spending my money on a product, yet still be treated as a criminal.




I think that's a bit of harsh exaggeration.  I don't like the new format (from what I know about it so far), but come on, they're not treating you like a criminal.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 7, 2004)

Well, DRM doesn't bother me. I'll just bitch to them if it doesn't work right. But I've been meaning to buy some MP products, so I went to drivethrurpg to check it out. When the page finally partially loaded, I found the prices on Monty's stuff to be very good. But the freakin' site is slower than cold tar!! (And yes, it looks terrible.)

So if I can ever get it to load, I'll try grabbing a pdf or two and seeing how it works. But I think that's a big "if" at this point.


----------



## BradfordFerguson (Jun 7, 2004)

Yair said:
			
		

> ...I also wonder if this new scheme will really bring in the rest of the industry into the pdf market. I guess I'll have to keep on wondering




I'm not taking credit AT ALL for companies starting to sell PDFs online who hadn't previously (Mongoose), but shortly after my Interview with Chris Davis of RPG Objects, we saw Mongoose offer its first PDFs on RPGNow.com along with Bastion offering _Oathbound: Domains of the Forge_ for PDF download.  I think the print-only publishers are coming to realize that they are missing out on an excellent medium through which to sell their products.  The products sell year round and while a year's worth of sales has been said to be less than month's worth of print sales, costs and hassles are much lower, and if you release a new product and someone wants to buy back stock (or back "issues") they can do it with the click of a mouse.  You don't have to hassle with distributors, etc.


----------



## Zaukrie (Jun 7, 2004)

Well, I'd love to comment on the site, but I've been trying to load it for 8 minutes. Clearly, they weren't ready technically for any kind of volume. During this time, I've opened and closed numerous sites, i'm sure my employer is thrilled.  

Monte, my main use for .pdf files is to copy and paste the rules I'll be using, and make them available to players. If this new technology limits my ability to do that, I'll be likely to buy a lot less of your excellent product.

I also have no interest in MS and others knowing when I'm using what software on my computer. Once I buy it, it's my business, not anyone else's what I do with it.

Also, i'm not keen on having to buy another copy of the software if I lose my hard drive or something else happens and my backup doesn't work. That is one of the advantages of files over hard copy. If the hard copy is damaged, you are out of luck.

I'll be happy to try this, i have nothing against change. But, as a "professional" company, they maybe should have invested in more/better technology. (as an employee of a company that hosts web sites for hundreds of clients, I do know that many companies underestimate their needs, or are too cheap to buy what they really need.....)


----------



## 3catcircus (Jun 7, 2004)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> I think I'd better leave this well alone or else I'm going to get beaten with the moderator stick again.




T'wasn't intended as an insult - probably came across as such due to differences between the printed word and a spoken conversation.


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I think that's a bit of harsh exaggeration.  I don't like the new format (from what I know about it so far), but come on, they're not treating you like a criminal.




It's an extension of the phrase, "If you outlaw a thing, the only people doing a thing will be outlaws." 

The people who are going to care enough to respect the DRM encryption aren't the problem, and yet they are getting the (extremely) short end of (the extremely sharp) stick (in the eye). 

The people who don't care, still wont.

For what it's worth, any company that goes this route has lost me as a customer too. Sorry Monte. 

1) I don't like registering products just to give a bajillion more corporations information that is none of their bloody buisness and inevitably that information will find some way to wind as spam or needless headache for me.

2) I don't use windows exclusivly on my desktop, and I don't use windows *at all* on my laptop, which as pointed out, has no Adobe Acrobat 6.

3) Further, neither my laptop nor the computer in my gaming room has any form of an internet connection, so I have to transfer things via CD to them (Well, I can trasfer via network to my laptop, but thats a pain to set up for a single file). Which as I understand it is going to shaft me even if there WAS a working DRM-enabled reader for linux.

4) I refuse to jump through hoops in terms of registering for a new service, following all the 'simple procedures' for getting the stuff to work, only to have a product that doesn't work right (I consider having features disabled to 'not work right').

5) It adds *no value* to the customer, it actually *subtracts value*, as you are getting a feature-limited, track-able, registration-required, limited-portability (if you exist outside of the Wintel framework) product.

Hopefully this service will die swiftly, the company doing this will go bankrupt and never be heard from again, and things will go back to the way they were soon.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but this really irks me. I was just starting to grow to like PDF publishing.


----------



## Voadam (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Well, I'll have to edit the thread title.
> 
> I am glad I bought the 3.5 updates last night when I did. I hope I was able to warn someone in time to grab some of their favorite titles in "non-PITA" format.




Damn, I'm too late. At least I already had a bunch from the 30% off sale at the Malhavok anniversary.


----------



## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

BradfordFerguson said:
			
		

> I'm not taking credit AT ALL for companies starting to sell PDFs online who hadn't previously (Mongoose), but shortly after my Interview with Chris Davis of RPG Objects, we saw Mongoose offer its first PDFs on RPGNow.com along with Bastion offering _Oathbound: Domains of the Forge_ for PDF download.  I think the print-only publishers are coming to realize that they are missing out on an excellent medium through which to sell their products.  The products sell year round and while a year's worth of sales has been said to be less than month's worth of print sales, costs and hassles are much lower, and if you release a new product and someone wants to buy back stock (or back "issues") they can do it with the click of a mouse.  You don't have to hassle with distributors, etc.



Yeah, despite all the gnashing and stomping, this is a pretty low-risk venture for the print-only crowd.  I am sure that fear of losing revenue kept them out of pdf for a long time.  Now they feel they have a low risk method of making some extra money on backlist stuff.  

I mean think about it, some joker can go out and get a crappilly scanned pdf copy of <insert fave print only product> for free already, why not try to rake in a few bucks by selling a good clean copy?  Even if the DRM copy is broken and distributed via P2P the day it comes out, formerly print-only outfits are likely to realize revenue they would not have brought in if they stayed on the sidelines.

I think it is a given that illicit copies of print products will be distributed, whether the company offers it in pdf or not.  They might as well.  People who are going to buy a hardcopy are going to buy a hardcopy regardless. (ok, that's speculation)

So this makes me wonder if some companies are getting desparate for revenue, and are starting to clutch whatever straws are within reach, before completely jumping the shark.


----------



## 3catcircus (Jun 7, 2004)

*Another Thing to Mull Over*

I wonder how long it will be before a DRM-enabled pdf from Malhavoc will be cracked and available on a website or p2p network, if it hasn't already?  

Given that many gamers are technically savvy, and in light of this thread, I wonder - maybe DRM will actually cause *more* pirating of pdfs than before.  

Consider - before, Joe Gamer would buy a pdf and go on his merry way.  Fred Gamer downloads it for free from a p2p network and goes on his merry way.  Jack Gamer downloads for free, likes it and buys it.  

Now - Joe Gamer buys a pdf, hates the DRM and cracks it for his own use.  If he has a bone to pick, due to spending time and effort cracking DRM instead of spending that time using his pdf, he releases the cracked copy onto a p2p.  Fred Gamer still downloads for free, same as before.  Jack Gamer downloads for free but no longer has any incentive to buy.


----------



## DanMcS (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I think that's a bit of harsh exaggeration.  I don't like the new format (from what I know about it so far), but come on, they're not treating you like a criminal.




Yes they are.  You have to authenticate yourself through a couple third parties to read a book which you have paid for and which resides on your PC.  The default assumption is that you are a criminal who has this file illegally on your computer, and do not have permission to read it, until you prove otherwise.


----------



## Ghostwind (Jun 7, 2004)

BradfordFerguson said:
			
		

> I'm not taking credit AT ALL for companies starting to sell PDFs online who hadn't previously (Mongoose), but shortly after my Interview with Chris Davis of RPG Objects, we saw Mongoose offer its first PDFs on RPGNow.com along with Bastion offering _Oathbound: Domains of the Forge_ for PDF download.



Umm, Bastion has been offering pdfs on RPGNow for quite some time. Long before Mongoose and your 'interview' in fact. Oathbound was just the latest print product of Baston's to be offered in pdf format. Those who are familiar with RPGNow and Bastion will recall that _Minions: Rebirth_ was the first product from print to go pdf for Bastion.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (Jun 7, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> ...you are even limited in how much you can copy to the clipboard in a given period, for those who might be using PDFs for their house rules or OGL projects.



This, to me, is the biggest limitation that would impact me, followed by making copies to go on my different systems (i.e., one at work, one in my home office, one on my gaming laptop).  For Malhavoc (and a few others), I always have purchased pdfs over hardcopies.  All this does is make hardcopies more usable than pdfs without increasing the value of hardcopies.

Also seems like a lot of trouble to go through considering that, as others have pointed out, it will only be a matter of time before someone hacks the protection out of the files and makes unregistered versions available on the various p2p programs (resulting in the _same_ situation this is intended to resolve).

In short, Malhavoc (and any company that does the same thing) can essentially write me off as a customer.  Oh, well.  Newer, smaller companies are in need of good coin, most of them with cleaner OGC/PI designations.  Time to broaden my horizons at tad more.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 7, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> It's an extension of the phrase, "If you outlaw a thing, the only people doing a thing will be outlaws."
> 
> SNIP



Well said.



Hopefully some good answers to these issues will be offered.  But I can't see it as likely.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Yes they are.  You have to authenticate yourself through a couple third parties to read a book which you have paid for and which resides on your PC.  The default assumption is that you are a criminal who has this file illegally on your computer, and do not have permission to read it, until you prove otherwise.



 Gimme a break.

So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?


----------



## 3catcircus (Jun 7, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I'm not disagreeing with you, but could you clarify this point?  I don't think I'm following you, here.  How do copyrights, in general, foster innnovation?  Are you saying that, by preventing blantant plagarism, copyright law forces artists to create less derivative works?  As a side to that, do you feel there should be no professional artists, or are you just saying that the law was not intended to get involved in the process of income at all?




The US Constitution allows Congress to levy taxes and tariffs, and one of the reasons for doing so is...

"To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;"

From http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html 

"WHAT IS COPYRIGHT?
Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U.S. Code) to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. Section 106 of the 1976 Copyright Act generally gives the owner of copyright the exclusive right to do and to authorize others to do the following: 

To reproduce the work in copies or phonorecords;

To prepare derivative works based upon the work;

To distribute copies or phonorecords of the work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;

To perform the work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works;

To display the copyrighted work publicly, in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works, including the individual images of a motion picture or other audiovisual work; and

In the case of sound recordings, to perform the work publicly by means of a digital audio transmission."

"How much of someone else's work can I use without getting permission?
Under the fair use doctrine of the U.S. copyright statute, it is permissible to use limited portions of a work including quotes, for purposes such as commentary, criticism, news reporting, and scholarly reports. There are no legal rules permitting the use of a specific number of words, a certain number of musical notes, or percentage of a work. Whether a particular use qualifies as fair use depends on all the circumstances. See FL 102, Fair Use, and Circular 21, Reproductions of Copyrighted Works by Educators and Librarians."

"Somebody infringed my copyright. What can I do? 
A party may seek to protect his or her copyrights against unauthorized use by filing a civil lawsuit in federal district court. If you believe that your copyright has been infringed, consult an attorney. *In cases of willful infringement for profit*, the U.S. Attorney may initiate a criminal investigation. 

Could I be sued for using somebody else's work? How about quotes or samples?
If you use a copyrighted work without authorization, the owner may be entitled to bring an infringement action against you. There are circumstances under the fair use doctrine where a quote or a sample may be used without permission. However, in cases of doubt, the Copyright Office recommends that permission be obtained."

In the case of the bold (emphasis mine) text, it answers my assertion that copyright is a civil case, not a criminal case.  That is what everyone on this thread and in general does not understand - despite what the RIAA and MPAA *want*, the majority of "piracy" and "theft" is a civil case due to the fact that most people do not profit off of downloading illegal music, pdfs, or whatever.


----------



## Spell (Jun 7, 2004)

Gez said:
			
		

> About the DRM thing, I think it may be the reason for the move. Sword&Sorcery's (and especially Malhavoc's) PDFs are the most pirated of the d20 industry.
> 
> (Of course, DRM is not the correct way to adress this problem, as it gives the incentive for people to get cracked versions that are easier to use, but that's a topic for another thread.)




Let me get this thing staright. You say that S&S and Malhavoc are the most pirated. I cannot see how this move could do anything for that! In fact, I suspect that they will alienate any casual buyer they might have had before. So, in order to force one pirate to buy their product (if he ever wants to buy it... not anybody with a PDF on his pirate list would spend a dime to buy it), they alienate other fans...
Sorry, but if that's the real reasoning behind this move, it really doesn't make any sense to me.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?



Bad analogy.

Video cameras have no negative impact on the utility of the merchandise.


----------



## wedgeski (Jun 7, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> T'wasn't intended as an insult - probably came across as such due to differences between the printed word and a spoken conversation.




Forget it. I just hope we don't ever end up in the same room discussing this subject...


----------



## derverdammte (Jun 7, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Yes they are.  You have to authenticate yourself through a couple third parties to read a book which you have paid for and which resides on your PC.  The default assumption is that you are a criminal who has this file illegally on your computer, and do not have permission to read it, until you prove otherwise.



My, what an interesting point.  

I did see that there are a couple of ways to crack DRM-enabled PDF files, so I'm not really sure what the point of that is.  However, I'd be happy to give them a go, provided THE GODDAMNED SITE WOULD LOAD ALREADY.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Bad analogy.
> 
> Video cameras have no negative impact on the utility of the merchandise.



 No, it's not a bad analogy.  I concede(d) that there are limitations to the format.  But the line 'they're treating me like a criminal' is over-the-top.


----------



## DanMcS (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?




The grocery store would have to put the video cameras in my kitchen, and put little driver's license swipers on the food, for this analogy to hold.


----------



## 3catcircus (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?




Uh... yeah.  They videotape people because they *assume* that any one of them is a potential shoplifter.  They prevent people from taking more than x number of clothing items into a dressing room to prevent them from putting multiple layers of clothes on under their street clothes and stealing them.  They ensure that if employees try to skim from the till, they will get caught.


----------



## derverdammte (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?



What are you talking about?  That has nothing to do with what he's saying.  A more accurate comparison would be a store that forces customers who are walking out the door to not only display a receipt and allow their merchandise to be inspected (a la Best Buy, which I'll say already treats their customers poorly), but also REQUIRES you to submit to a search of your person, just to prove that you're not concealing any merchandise in, say, your underwear.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?



Well, whenever I see these videocameras or security guys, or policemen in uniform (despite my father being an police officer), I somehow feel like criminal, or at least a potential one. I can`t help it, there is no sensible reason for it, but I don`t like it. And if I don`t feel like a potential criminal, I at least don`t feel any safer. (Why are they here? Because there are criminals around?)

Well, this aside, my main problem with these online pdf-buying services: They always want my credit card number. But I don´t have one. And I don`t plan on getting one. So I always have to wait until Malhavoc or other distributores create print copies I can get at an (preferably online) store in Germany. (Like Dragonworld.com, or possibly amazon.de)

Still, I tested the whole DRM thing with the free copy of the AU Dragon. So far, it worked well, though I hated having to create all these accounts, especially at M$. I still have to test how easy it is to transfer the file to my notebook.

Mustrum Ridcully


----------



## Henry (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?




Actually, yes; it's just that society is more understanding of it.  There was a big "to-do" about that concept when it was new about 30 years ago, also.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

derverdammte said:
			
		

> What are you talking about?  That has nothing to do with what he's saying.  A more accurate comparison would be a store that forces customers who are walking out the door to not only display a receipt and allow their merchandise to be inspected (a la Best Buy, which I'll say already treats their customers poorly), but also REQUIRES you to submit to a search of your person, just to prove that you're not concealing any merchandise in, say, your underwear.



 Aw, come on, it's a few clicks of a mouse.  I've done it.  It took me minutes, and I'm on a slow connection.  To call that being 'treated like a criminal', or to compare it to submiting to a body search is rediculous


----------



## Henry (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Aw, come on, it's a few clicks of a mouse.  I've done it.  It took me minutes, and I'm on a slow connection.  To call that being 'treated like a criminal', or to compare it to submiting to a body search is rediculous




I will concede one point on this to opponents, John: for DRM to require any insertions of additional aoftware on the system to allow use is a security concern. WinXP already has enough holes large enough to drive a semi through without patching; one more potential security hole by means of a DRM account with .NET or Adobe would be of sufficient concern to some people.


----------



## isidorus (Jun 7, 2004)

I still think day one of the bigger companies is going to do a RIAA sue scheme, especially from the bigger companies Wotc or WW. Especially in america, where the DMCA has taken fair use rights and thrown them in the trashcan.

What get me about this whole mess, is the average consumer is treated like a pirate, thief, copyright infringer, etc. _I Hate being treated like a thief_

I am going to make a list for myself for every company that uses DRM on PDFs. An I will take it with me I shop at my Local FLGS, Bookstore etc. and if they are on that list I will refuse to buy their paper product. I know this harsh but I cannot pay for this by buying their paper books.Same thing I did when the RIAA went this way, Have not bought a cd in 5 years.

FYI: MY Roleplaying is pretty angry about this whole debacle

Sigh! Oh Well a Wod 2 just went off my buying list and any of Monte's work.


----------



## derverdammte (Jun 7, 2004)

UPDATE!

I finally got into the site and downloaded the freebie file for Malhavoc.  I especially enjoyed the way it made my Acrobat Reader completely unresponsive for the past 10 minutes.

A+++ would download again*








*I'm not impressed.


----------



## Sir Whiskers (Jun 7, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I'm not disagreeing with you, but could you clarify this point?  I don't think I'm following you, here.  How do copyrights, in general, foster innnovation?  Are you saying that, by preventing blantant plagarism, copyright law forces artists to create less derivative works?  As a side to that, do you feel there should be no professional artists, or are you just saying that the law was not intended to get involved in the process of income at all?




IIRC, copyright law provides artists the *opportunity* to make money off their creations for a fixed period of time (in the US originally 17 years?? - now much, much longer). Whether or not the original artist makes a dime, the work is intended (in theory) to eventually enter the public domain so that others may indeed create derivative works, fostering innovation. Eternal copyrights (something many corporations would dearly love) actually reduce innovation - if they had always existed, no one could do a variant of Shakespeare's plays, no one could use Yankee Doodle in a performance or novel, etc.

It's a balancing act. Copyrights have to last long enough to allow artists to make a fair return on their work, or many artists will never bother. But if the copyright remains in effect too long, then innovation is stifled. It's a very interesting debate, but kind of difficult to keep up with, given the constant changes in both law and technology.


----------



## SteveC (Jun 7, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> No pitchforks, just simple reality, I will not buy a product that restricts my right to use it. Nor will I just hand over information to Microsoft, Adobe or WW so that they can search my computer to make sure I am a good boy.
> 
> I have never stolen anything in my entire life. I do not feel like spending my money on a product, yet still be treated as a criminal.



I understand your sentiment: I won't be buying any of these products either in their current format. What I am saying is its unlikely that Monte and the S&S folks are trying to do that *deliberately. *This is an experiment, and I believe it is one that is ultimately destined to fail. Now Monte is one of the folks most heavily invested in PDFs in the RPG industry. He's a good guy from my experiences, and also a *smart* one. If and when people don't buy product in the numbers he expects to see, I can't imagine he will not make changes. In fact, he's talked about that already. All I can say is a person with a good reputation should be given a little bit more than 24 hours to before we _storm castle Cook_.  

For me the issues with a PDF are: portablilty, searching, copying and pasting and cost. This new service offers me no advantages in any of these areas, other than the ability to buy the product in the first place, so unless it is something that I can't live without (and with RPGs, there aren't any products like that) I don't see any reason to go with the new company.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Aw, come on, it's a few clicks of a mouse.  I've done it.  It took me minutes, and I'm on a slow connection.  To call that being 'treated like a criminal', or to compare it to submiting to a body search is rediculous




just a few clicks....

                 and the associated user data that those clicks send, an electronic body search

Plus, it is more than just a few clicks.  As I pointed out before and you were forced to ignore, the utility of the product IS reduced.  I will have limitations on back-ups, cut and paste, and mobility, among other things.

The store stops filming me the moment I walk out the door.


----------



## HellHound (Jun 7, 2004)

Bradford:



> I'm not taking credit AT ALL for companies starting to sell PDFs online who hadn't previously (Mongoose), but shortly after my Interview with Chris Davis of RPG Objects, we saw Mongoose offer its first PDFs on RPGNow.com along with Bastion offering Oathbound: Domains of the Forge for PDF download.




I think you are seriously mistaken about the PDF timeline. Mongoose has been e-publishing PDF products through RPGnow as long as I have - I got in at the end of 2001. If an article in 2004 started them on this path, then it was through the magic of time-travel.

As for Bastion Press, Jim has been releasing product on RPGnow for a while longer than I have.


----------



## fett527 (Jun 7, 2004)

Obviously completely unprepared for their launch.  Doesn't speak well....


----------



## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

SteveC said:
			
		

> This is an experiment, and I believe it is one that is ultimately destined to fail.



I agree.  It will eventually fail. However, in the meantime, there really is no risk to the publishers who were previously print-only, except for a relatively small amount of ill will from those who know this isn't the answer to piracy.  (Well, if it is the answer, it was a pretty stupid question.)

While this may be an experiment for the RPG industry, DRM has been around long enough for people to gauge it's appropriateness for an application.  This isn't it.


----------



## tm80401 (Jun 7, 2004)

As I, like a previous poster, use Linux on the laptop that I use for gaming.

Until someone comes up with either a product that supports standards driven DRM, or, frankly, ignores the DRM and displays the product anyway, DRM corrupted PDF's have no value to me.

BTW, the only study of filesharing done by someone other than the RIAA has concluded that filesharing has no statistical impact on sales.

If you want, I will try to dig it up.


----------



## Sylevus (Jun 7, 2004)

*Treated like a thief?*

I am really curious about this comment.   On one hand you say you have to have the portability of the pdf, i.e. the main tool that allows the thief to freely and widely disseminate someone else's labor, and on the other you do not want to be treated like a thief. 

Isnt this an attempt to sell you an electronic copy of the book that will be yours, not be "easily" shareable, and hence less likely to be used to pirate the product?   I think that moving to try and fight this kind of trusted relationship is what the publisher and the consumer want if they want electronic media and mutual trust.   

Yet all we hear are.. don't treat me like a thief.   I NEED portable.   And the fun one...  They are just trying to gouge us.

Digital theft is a problem.  Yet all we hear are excuses that encourage and enable theft.   I would be much more respectful of other opinions if I heard admonition of the pirates that goes beyond 'wink, wink'.   

These companies are wanting to try something different, and I hope it works for them.  Especially in terms of cutting down on the piracy of their products.  Go to rpg.net and look up lamest gamer threads instead of DRM.   Plenty of examples of how little people respect game producers.   

I have enjoyed the hobby for twenty years and I for one would like twenty more QUALITY years, where publishers are willing and able to continue to publish without the fear of a digital camera spreading their product worldwide the day after its published.   And unfortunately that fix does not lie in the publishers hands.   It lies in our hands when we chose to take and have no respect to return what the creator deserves.


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?




Does the store follow you home and tell you how many times you can open your carton of milk? Or how many glasses you can pour it into? Is there a fair-use agreement on your box of raisin bran?

The issue is: can the publisher tell you what you can or cannot do with your purchase in your own home? The fact that they use your own computer to force their will upon you, is repugnant. The copyright was invented to protect publishers from other publishers, not to dictate the actions of the free public. When you trade your work for $$$, you no longer have a say over the work, unless someone tries to re-market it. If you don't want people to share your precious work, don't share it yourself.

Publishers making money from your work is devious, and a true abuse of copyright. Chubby fanboys trading pdfs at 2am is penny-ante at best.

Go to your FLGS tonight, and watch the owner play a game of D&D or Warhammer. One of his buddies will walk over to the rack, grab a book off the shelf, read it, show it around, then put it back without paying. *GASP* Copyright violation!

Would you close down libraries that have rpg books? Should magazine racks have a rack-lawyer ready to file suit against those who read Dungeon or Dragon without paying? Perhaps a government bureaucrat assigned to each nerd to insure proper computer-use? How about chips in everyone's heads that delete copyrighted knowledge after 30 days? 

Yes, they are treating us like potential criminals; because you using something you bought, how you wish to use it, is a crime in the minds of greedy control-freaks.

_And for the record; my sales are doing better every day. Maybe their sales aren't down because of piracy..._


----------



## mercucio (Jun 7, 2004)

DanMcS said:
			
		

> Malhavoc has been releasing PITA, crippled OGL products for a long time.  Now they're just releasing PITA, crippled products, period.  I'm not surprised.




 What does PITA stand for?


----------



## Fiery James (Jun 7, 2004)

SteveC said:
			
		

> I understand your sentiment: I won't be buying any of these products either in their current format. What I am saying is its unlikely that Monte and the S&S folks are trying to do that *deliberately. *This is an experiment, and I believe it is one that is ultimately destined to fail. Now Monte is one of the folks most heavily invested in PDFs in the RPG industry. He's a good guy from my experiences, and also a *smart* one. If and when people don't buy product in the numbers he expects to see, I can't imagine he will not make changes. In fact, he's talked about that already. All I can say is a person with a good reputation should be given a little bit more than 24 hours to before we _storm castle Cook_.




Well said.

My advice:
1) Let the publishers in question and DTRP know your concerns.
2) Wait for changes.

- James


----------



## BSF (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?




No, not necessarily, but a store that pats you down before you leave is. 

Just as the default assumption when you go through a metal detector has to be that somebody in that line is carrying a weapon.  

But, while I accept going through a metal detector as a reasonable precaution for a plane flight, or to enter a court building, I would not return to a store that arbitrarily patted me down as I was leaving.  For some people, registering with MS Passport and Adobe is no big deal.  For other people, it is too invasive.  

If you could buy a DVD from only one store, then you had to take it home call two third-party agencies to come to your house and setup your DVD player so you could play the movie, there would be a lot less appeal to buying the movie.  If you factor in that the third-party companies also reserve the right to check out all your stuff in your house, the appeal drops even further. 

You don't need to have anything immoral or illegal in your house to find this concept slightly offensive.  Some guy you don't know will walk through all your bedrooms, picking up whatever they want and looking at it.  If you want to watch your movie, you can't stop them.  You just hope they will respect your privacy.  

In some ways, DRM feels just about the same.  

I will keep an open mind and I will see what experiences other people have with DrivethruRPG.  It might be the next best thing since sliced bread.  It might serve needs adequately.  I might not like any of the aspects of DRM and choose not to buy anything.  *shrug*  It's a free market, make your choices with your wallet/pocketbook.  

Regardless, I still want good publishers to be successful.  So long as they can provide a good product, in a format I am willing to use, in a manner I am willing to support, then I will buy from them.  If they don't, then I won't.  

I am a little disappointed with the direction because I have heard very little I like about DRM.  However, this might also be the opportunity for me to look at the issue with my own two eyes and judge for myself.


----------



## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

The Mad Kaiser said:
			
		

> Does the store follow you home and tell you how many times you can open your carton of milk? Or how many glasses you can pour it into? Is there a fair-use agreement on your box of raisin bran?
> 
> The issue is: can the publisher tell you what you can or cannot do with your purchase in your own home? The fact that they use your own computer to force their will upon you, is repugnant. The copyright was invented to protect publishers from other publishers, not to dictate the actions of the free public. When you trade your work for $$$, you no longer have a say over the work, unless someone tries to re-market it. If you don't want people to share your precious work, don't share it yourself.
> 
> ...






I don't own any of your products.  But I'm going to go peruse them and see if anything appeals to me. If any do, cha-ching!


----------



## derverdammte (Jun 7, 2004)

mercucio said:
			
		

> What does PITA stand for?



I was assuming *P*ain *I*n *T*he *A*rse, but I could be wrong.


----------



## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

mercucio said:
			
		

> What does PITA stand for?




Stop being a PITA and go read this link:  (just kidding!     )
http://www.netlingo.com/lookup.cfm?term=PITA


----------



## Rasyr (Jun 7, 2004)

*Not all companies think of customers as crooks!*

I am pleased to announce that ICE did not buy into this DRM nonsense at DriveThruRPG, and also because of it we are moving up something we had planned for later this year.

HARP (High Adventure Role Playing) will be, for a limited time, available as a $10, 192 page PDF for sale on ICE's website. Please note that the PDf will not contain any DRM what-so-ever! We like to support our customers and trust them. We see DRM (aka crippled PDFs) as a bane to the industry overall, and thus are making this offer available now. 

Our webmistress is setting it up now and it should be available soon. This offer will last until at least June 15th!


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 7, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> I don't own any of your products.  But I'm going to go peruse them and see if anything appeals to me. If any do, cha-ching!




And as a thank-you for giving me cash, feel free to copy, paste, back-up, and print as many times as makes you comfortable. You can even let your little brother read it!


----------



## tm80401 (Jun 7, 2004)

Here is the address of the study.  It was done by 2 professors, one from Harvard Business School, and one from UNC Chapel Hill


http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 7, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> just a few clicks....
> 
> and the associated user data that those clicks send, an electronic body search
> 
> ...


----------



## SteveC (Jun 7, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I was awfully confused for a moment, until I realized you weren't referring to DivX, but the original DIVX (my confusion, not a lack of clarity on your part).
> 
> 
> For clarity's sake, DIVX was a completely different situation in comparison to DVDs than DRM versions of PDFs. DIVX was never meant as a way to counteract piracy, but a way for Circuit City (and ONLY Circuit City) to bilk as much money as humanly possible from consumers. It only had any initial market penetration due mostly to consumer ignorance and expensive (at that time) DVD prices. Back when DVDs were new, the idea of paying a rental price of $4.95 for limited viewings over a short period of time didn't seem like a terrible idea...to some.
> ...



I think is is especially ironic that the only thing that remains from the term "DIVX" is DivX, a very nice, and also free, video codec. I think there's something of a lesson here... One other thing: DIVX *was* marketed as an anti-piracy product to the industry. The company tried a variety of marketing schemes with the public, none of which worked.

I agree with you about waiting for print on items available through this service. The problem becomes that publishers decide what to take to print based on PDF sales, so I might miss out on some products entirely by doing this. Well, c'est la vie.


----------



## HiLiphNY (Jun 7, 2004)

DRM-crap.  Not gonna buy it.  I once thought about buying a Sony mp3 player until I learned it required that you convert the mp3s into Sony's proprietary format, thereby making the transfer process 2x as long.

The customer will always drift towards a technology of transparancy, and away from that of nuisance.  I love Malhavoc, and have been running an AU campaign for almost a year now.  Have I bought the AU PDFs. . . .yes.  Will I buy DRM PDFs. . . nope.

So where does that leave an AU DM?  Hmm, well I'll buy the books, old-school format.  I believe those are sigbificantly lower margin business than the PDFs which I usually pick up.  *Monte. . .you're heading for what people in my business (Wall St.) call a margin slip*.  I'm not telling you how to run your business though, just what my response is.


----------



## mearls (Jun 7, 2004)

HiLiphNY said:
			
		

> *Monte. . .you're heading for what people in my business (Wall St.) call a margin slip*.  I'm not telling you how to run your business though, just what my response is.




Actually, you are, and that's a *good* thing. We didn't make this change lightly, and you can believe me that we're taking a long look at the sales numbers for the next couple months and paying close attention to the site.

We knew going in that this would be controversial. We are *never* going to plug our ears and ignore the gaming public. Just give this time to play itself out, and let's see what happens.

In the meantime, we're listening.


----------



## Belen (Jun 7, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> Actually, you are, and that's a *good* thing. We didn't make this change lightly, and you can believe me that we're taking a long look at the sales numbers for the next couple months and paying close attention to the site.
> 
> We knew going in that this would be controversial. We are *never* going to plug our ears and ignore the gaming public. Just give this time to play itself out, and let's see what happens.
> 
> In the meantime, we're listening.




Mike,

I am glad that you're listening.  I know that I appreciate publishers' thoughts on topics such as these.  I have no idea what your sales will be like after a few months with DRM, but I can say that I would have been happier had we be told about this in advance or if Malhavoc had decided to run dual systems for a while in order to test out the DRM method.

I know that I will not purchase PDFs from Malhavoc with DRMs.  It is too much a hassel to upgrade my programs, such as Adobe, with a dial-up connection, and it is a far larger hassel to register just to read a book that I legally purchased.

The advantage of PDFs (immediate accessibility, price, portability) flies out the door when you have to spend time registering your identity with a company on every computer you own, then being unable to cut and paste rules for things such as house rules documents, or programs like HeroRPG etc.

I will buy the books that I truly desire in print format, but PDFs allowed me to buy the entire Malhavoc catalogue, while print products must be limited to available shelf space and real need for the book.

I know that Monte is the last person to want to stifle honest gamers, but this is the exact effect of DRMs.

Dave

PS- The net effect is that every customer is treated as a potential criminal.


----------



## Bendris Noulg (Jun 7, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> The net effect is that every customer is treated as a potential criminal.



"All purchasers shall be presumed potentially-guilty until proven innocent."


----------



## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

mearls said:
			
		

> Actually, you are, and that's a *good* thing. We didn't make this change lightly, and you can believe me that we're taking a long look at the sales numbers for the next couple months and paying close attention to the site.
> 
> We knew going in that this would be controversial. We are *never* going to plug our ears and ignore the gaming public. Just give this time to play itself out, and let's see what happens.
> 
> In the meantime, we're listening.



Thanks Mike.  For me, it's mostly about the privacy issues tied up with DRM, passport, etc..  Not only from a mistrust of what the 3rd party companies might do with my information, but the fact that there would be an additional open door for others besides Adobe and Microsoft to poke their heads in and look about.

Another, albeit minor, concern is gee whiz, all of the WW imprint companies are jumping into this exclusive deal.  You say you didn't take the decision lightly.  I hope that implies you had some say in the matter, and weren't told to do it by WW.  

The above issues, coupled with my general dislike for WW (believe me, beyond the scope of this thread) has lead me to the point where I will not be buying anything from under the WW umbrella, print or pdf.

I hope you guys have an exit clause, because this will burn hot and fast out of the gate, and then fizzle.


----------



## Deamoclese (Jun 7, 2004)

Out of sheer curiosity... I bought a PDFs of their site... note, I have no experience with "cracking" or hacking files... I did a google search on it... 15 minutes later I removed all the security on the file and it is now like a good 'ol fashion pdf.

Was rather laughable.


----------



## BlackMoria (Jun 7, 2004)

I am taking a 'wait and see' approach to this.  

I mention in passing that this very issue is the subject of a lengthy thread at RPG.NET with 357 posts and 13288 views......and still going strong.

The majority opinion at RPG.NET appears to be similar to here - most people view this as not a good thing for the consumer.


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## Numion (Jun 7, 2004)

My opinion is that those who pirated the PDFs before will continue to do so (googling indeed found something), and those who bought PDFs before aren't too happy. Pirates aren't affected, but customers are. 

Seems like a strange move for Monte Cook, but I trust his judgement more than my own - after all, he's a big part of making RPG PDFs as popular as they are.


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## NeghVar (Jun 7, 2004)

And now you have violated the DMCA by bypassing the DRM...

I wouldn't advertise this...



			
				Deamoclese said:
			
		

> Out of sheer curiosity... I bought a PDFs of their site... note, I have no experience with "cracking" or hacking files... I did a google search on it... 15 minutes later I removed all the security on the file and it is now like a good 'ol fashion pdf.
> 
> Was rather laughable.


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## Numion (Jun 7, 2004)

NeghVar said:
			
		

> And now you have violated the DMCA by bypassing the DRM...
> 
> I wouldn't advertise this...




He probably didn't. Canada has different, more lenient, laws for copyright.


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## The Sigil (Jun 7, 2004)

NeghVar said:
			
		

> And now you have violated the DMCA by bypassing the DRM...
> 
> I wouldn't advertise this...



Nope.  He lives in Canada, according to his profile.  DMCA doesn't apply there, just in the US.  In fact, Canada has a considerably different view of what constitutes piracy (last I checked, both uploads and downloads on P2P networks, such as Kazaa, had been ruled legal by Canadian judges).

--The Sigil


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

Deamoclese said:
			
		

> Out of sheer curiosity... I bought a PDFs of their site... note, I have no experience with "cracking" or hacking files... I did a google search on it... 15 minutes later I removed all the security on the file and it is now like a good 'ol fashion pdf.
> 
> Was rather laughable.



In the intrest of fairness, you might want to email Malhavoc and tell them exactly how you found it. If its a security risk to their welbeing they deserve to know.


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## Rasyr (Jun 7, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Mike,
> I have no idea what your sales will be like after a few months with DRM, but I can say that I would have been happier had we be told about this in advance or if Malhavoc had decided to run dual systems for a while in order to test out the DRM method.




They cannot run dual for a while. Their contract with DriveThru RPG (owned by Publishing Services, Inc, which is owned by the guys who own White Wolf) is an exclusive contract, meaning that NOBODY else can sell their PDFs, with or without DRM.

It is also interesting to note that this whole DriveThruRPG thing came about AFTER RPGNow declined to sell their business to White Wolf (as noted by James over in the publisher forum).


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## Arnwyn (Jun 7, 2004)

NeghVar said:
			
		

> And now you have violated the DMCA by bypassing the DRM...
> 
> I wouldn't advertise this...



D00d... you'd better learn some geography - it would help you to get your countries straight.


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 7, 2004)

NeghVar said:
			
		

> And now you have violated the DMCA by bypassing the DRM...
> 
> I wouldn't advertise this...



Yep, he's #1 on the "To Sue" list now.


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## isidorus (Jun 7, 2004)

> Originally Posted by BelenUmeria
> The net effect is that every customer is treated as a potential criminal.






> Originally Posted by Bendris Noulg
> "All purchasers shall be presumed potentially-guilty until proven innocent."




Thanks you guys said it better then I did, since I said Ihate being treated as a thief. Your statements were more Elegantly said then mine.


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## Deamoclese (Jun 7, 2004)

As noted accurately by others, I am unaffected by the DMCA... I should note that I did this to see how hard/easy it was, not to file share it... and yes, file sharing laws in Canada are close to nonexistant. (In short, the law only states that you can only share files with individuals on the internet that you "know" ... obviously a huge loophole and there's no current attempts to close this loophole).

The only hard part in cracking the file was the time spent google searching it... once I found it, I was amazed how little I actually had to do.

As another note, I have no intention of buying any more pdfs from this atrocious site... the fact that they are basically making me pay to "rent" the pdf under their strict rules is too much of a slap in the face (I don't technically own the product cus I have to read it off them).

I own (bought) all of Malhavoc's products except Chaositech... I have no plans to purchase any more of their books in print or pdf until they put this nonsense behind - I find it to be a horribly rude business practice.. I'll have to manage without Malhavoc and the other publishers/comapnies on drivethrurpg.

I hope this whole system of theirs dies quickly.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 7, 2004)

Frankly, I'm glad that RPGnow didnt sell. Otherwise we'de be stuck with ALL pdf's being PITA!


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## BlackMoria (Jun 7, 2004)

> ....  In fact, Canada has a considerably different view of what constitutes piracy (last I checked, both uploads and downloads on P2P networks, such as Kazaa, had been ruled legal by Canadian judges).




It was not ruled that ALL P2P is legal. What was ruled was that MUSIC P2P sharing is legal because Canadians already pay a 'piracy' tax on blank cds, tapes, and harddrives, and the proceeds of that tax  goes to media companies to compensate them for any illegal use that these products may be put to in regards to their IP. However, RPG producers don't see a piece of this action and so I believe that it would be illegal to share their IP on P2P and therefore it would be considered piracy, even in Canada.

Also, the ruling regarding music P2P has more depth to it than that. Basically it is okay for you to have the files available on your machine and make them publically available, but it was still illegal for someone who doesn't have a right to own that material to download it from you. 

My understanding of the Canadian ruling of P2P file sharing....


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## francisca (Jun 7, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> Frankly, I'm glad that RPGnow didnt sell. Otherwise we'de be stuck with ALL pdf's being PITA!




Let me Echo that:
Frankly, I'm glad that RPGnow didnt sell. Otherwise we'de be stuck with ALL pdf's being PITA!

Frankly, I'm glad that RPGnow didnt sell. Otherwise we'de be stuck with ALL pdf's being PITA!

Frankly, I'm glad that RPGnow didnt sell. Otherwise we'de be stuck with ALL pdf's being PITA!

Frankly, I'm glad that RPGnow didnt sell. Otherwise we'de be stuck with ALL pdf's being PITA!


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## Estlor (Jun 7, 2004)

We're dealing with two decidedly different issues here; one is a good thing, the other is a potentially bad thing.

 I'm no fan of DRM.  I understand the philosophy behind it and cannot say a desire to protect oneself from piracy isn't within the expected rights of the publishing company.  However, in most cases, their "protection" only serves to cripple law-abiding consumers.  It's the same case as gun control.  Preventing law-abiding individuals from legally obtaining and owning a firearm doesn't decrease gun violence, as individuals who will use their firearm in an unlawful manner would not purchase it through lawful avenues.  In this case, you're making PDF consumers own certain software, give up certain information that (most feel) is a violation of their privacy, and restrict their "fair use" of something they have paid for.  At the same time, anyone who cares enough to take the time to pirate a PDF will take the time to track down a DRM crack and apply it.  The core issue behind DRM and other forms of copy protection is it usually only serves to punish the people you want to nurture.

 However, Drivethrurpg.com has the potential to start a trend that is a blessing for the RPG industry.  If publishers make their back catalog available in PDF form, it permits them to continue to siphon a small amount of money out of the market long after their product is "out of print."  Beyond the initial cost of producing the PDF (which, considering most publishers develop their products in Acrobat-friendly applications, is negligible after a print product is developed), all the costs are on the distributer's hands.  The publisher doesn't have to worry about print runs, physical product storage, or any sort of expected monthly sales quotas.

 I was a big fan of the ESD movement in WotC and patronized them many times over in completing my back collection of OD&D products.  I think low price point out of print material easily obtained as a PDF is a good thing.  Hopefully when the use of DRM stops (and it will), these publishers will continue to release more of their out of print back catalog as inexpensive PDFs.


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## rushlight (Jun 7, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> Nope. He lives in Canada, according to his profile. DMCA doesn't apply there, just in the US. In fact, Canada has a considerably different view of what constitutes piracy (last I checked, both uploads and downloads on P2P networks, such as Kazaa, had been ruled legal by Canadian judges).
> 
> --The Sigil



Not to mention that breaking the copy-protection isn't a violation of the DMCA - _sharing _that broken file would be.

That's why sites that contain software cracks are not shut down by the government.  The smart ones state that you must agree to use the cracks on products you legally purchased, and that you aren't allowed to share any software that you have cracked.

It's subtle - but legal.


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## Bendris Noulg (Jun 7, 2004)

Estlor said:
			
		

> However, Drivethrurpg.com has the potential to start a trend that is a blessing for the RPG industry. If publishers make their back catalog available in PDF form, it permits them to continue to siphon a small amount of money out of the market long after their product is "out of print." Beyond the initial cost of producing the PDF (which, considering most publishers develop their products in Acrobat-friendly applications, is negligible after a print product is developed), all the costs are on the distributer's hands. The publisher doesn't have to worry about print runs, physical product storage, or any sort of expected monthly sales quotas.



This differentiates them from RPGNow how?


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## BradfordFerguson (Jun 7, 2004)

HellHound said:
			
		

> I think you are seriously mistaken about the PDF timeline. Mongoose has been e-publishing PDF products through RPGnow as long as I have - I got in at the end of 2001. If an article in 2004 started them on this path, then it was through the magic of time-travel.
> 
> As for Bastion Press, Jim has been releasing product on RPGnow for a while longer than I have.




Yes, but I stated that Mongoose is now releasing PDFs and Bastion released _Oathbound: Domains of the Forge_.  There's a BIG difference between what Bastion had been releasing as PDF compared to releasing a 320-page full-color, hard cover book as a PDF.  That's why I said _Oathbound_ specifically.  To me, it indicates a possible shift in strategy to either test the market or to get people to buy the supporting products of _Oathbound_.  It's possible that my phone interview had nothing to do with some companies' moves to PDF and that it's just synergy in the industry (which I also acknowledge, or meant to).

Ahh such is the fun of trying to communicate through text.  :\


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## JRRNeiklot (Jun 7, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?






Yes.


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## Sir Whiskers (Jun 7, 2004)

/Off Topic/

Mad Kaiser, I took a look at the demo on RPGNow and have a suggestion. 

While the material presented is compelling, I was hoping you would completely flesh out the location with interesting npc's and maybe a plot hook or two. I don't need a pdf full of new mundane items so much as complete locations which mix npc's, items, atmosphere, and so on to make a memorable encounter for my players. If you can do that in your future products, I guarantee I'll give them a try. Shoot, I might even write my first review.


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## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 8, 2004)

deleted


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## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 8, 2004)

Sir Whiskers said:
			
		

> /Off Topic/
> 
> Mad Kaiser, I took a look at the demo on RPGNow and have a suggestion.
> 
> While the material presented is compelling, I was hoping you would completely flesh out the location with interesting npc's and maybe a plot hook or two. I don't need a pdf full of new mundane items so much as complete locations which mix npc's, items, atmosphere, and so on to make a memorable encounter for my players. If you can do that in your future products, I guarantee I'll give them a try. Shoot, I might even write my first review.




/Still Off Topic/

I think you are talking about the _Kaiser's Bazaar_ line? I will assume so.

I admit that the demo is a bit poor from your viewpoint, it is meant to attract DM's that are looking for "big organized lists of stuff". My main focus is to provide a healthy booster the the anemic item lists in the PHB. But if you feel you need more "flavor", here is a snippet from Kaiser's Bazaar - Book A at no charge to show there is more to the books than just 'huge lists':

*
RED-STARLIGHT FINEST-BREWS
(ELVEN BEER)

	You thought you'd never see it, but here stands a tent that sells elven beer. The tent is average-sized, made of red and white fabric, located at the edge of the brewers market. A hand-painted fabric sign of almost royal quality displays the name of the business in both common and elven languages. Instead of the usual towering stacks of barrels this market boasts, this tent looks more like a wine cellar. Racks of bottles dominate the tent, with only a few corked pin-casks being the exception.

	The elf smirks when he sees your look of curiosity, and offers you a thin wine glass of sparkling amber beer.

	One of the more unusual merchants in town is the beer-brewing elf, Erbantas Fella'Pyesia. Most everyone assumes that elves have little desire to make or drink beer, and for the most part, this is true. About two-hundred and sixty years ago, Erbantas chanced into the business through family relations, although he would not realize it for a while;

	When Erbantas was just a lad of only 30 years, his older sister Bailine married a human brewer named Wutger Red and bore him a son named Perry Red. After Perry Red married a human girl he had purchased from an orphanage, to him was born Dorry Red, later called Dirty Dorry by those who knew him. Dorry's first wife bore him 12 daughters of grace and charm, 'though despite their elven heritage, not much beauty. His second wife, a mere girl of fifteen (while he was in his late forties!) bore a son he named Wutger after his grandfather.

	Wutger's wife bore twin sons, Hergle and Wutger Jr. Being the oldest twin by seven counts of the midwife, Hergle inherited the brewery, and promptly ran it into the ground. He sold the property to Wutger Jr., who did his best to revive the business. He was unable to revive the company completely, but left his son with a respectable start and enough silver to invest. Wutger Red the 3rd did a decent job with the company, hiring several of his illegitimate cousins from his uncle's side.

	It then became a solid family tradition for the oldest male of each generation to be named Wutger Red and this son would inherit the company. This continued on quietly for four more generations, landing unexpectedly in the lap of Wutger Red the 7th during his 26th year.

	Wutger VII was surprised one day, not long after, as a young-looking elf came wandering into his workhouse and inquired about a elf named Bailine, claiming he was her brother. Wutger was sad to explain that Bailine had died of an illness during the life of Wutger the Second, but he didn't know if her family had been notified so long ago. He was however glad to meet his great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-granduncle and invited him to stay with the family and share his knowledge of the family history. During this time, Erbantas learned the craft of brewing beer from his great grand-nephew, and found he enjoyed the business and his new mostly-human family greatly. Erbantas began brewing the sort of beer you'd expect from a beer-brewing elf; light, fruity, clear, fragrant, and complex. His beers are also bottled like sparkling wines, stored in dark glass bottles with wired corks. These beers are by no means huge sellers, but Erbantas makes a good living selling to upscale inns and to those curious to sample elven beer. He hires many of his nephew's kin to work the vats and deliver the goods of the growing company. Because of his closeness with the Red family, he has since added the family name to his own and uses a modification of the Red family crest as his label.
*

If you want the list of elven beers, the Marionette Opera, Dragoman Zheigis, the Tiavesi Family Banking House, and the other interesting merchants, you'll need the books  But seriously, read some of the reviews; Several of my more british customers have praised the "flavour" the books have added to their game. Two customers even lament that they can't get players to leave the Bazaar to play 'real' adventures!


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## Nightfall (Jun 8, 2004)

This reminds me of the debates a Christian friend of mine and pagan friend of mine had. Both we're so damn sure they were right, no one listened.


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## RCanning (Jun 8, 2004)

I used to impulse purchase PDFs on my computer at work, print them here, put them on my memory stick and then take them home. Work does not allow us to use Acrobat 6 (or anything like DRM) as it is against policy. I have lost my ability to freely print colour copies of the pdfs I purchase.

So... I started calling around print centers here in Melbourne, Australia. Out of 10 phone calls, I found only 1 that would print DRM protected material, and they charge $15 AU (about $9 US) over and above the normal printing cost to do so, and they require me to hand over my username and password to them; with no guarantee that they will get rid of it later. Basically, they will do it if I break the DRM T&Cs.

So PDFs that are protected by DRM are now a lot more expensive than print products, and print products here are VERY expensive (A $20 US book is normally about $55-$65 AU). So all of a sudden, I can't afford RPG books anymore if more publishers go the way Malhavoc have.

This means that for the first time in my life, I will be tempted to look for cracked versions of the books online. I have never done file sharing or P2P before, I have never felt the need. The PDFs were cheap enough for me not to put in the effort. Now they are, so if I see something that I think is worthwhile, I will not impulse buy it anymore; it is physically impossible for me to do so, because I can't download the files at work where I do 99% of my online shopping.

I am a published author. I feel that I should purchase product. But it is being make almost impossible for me to do so. When the AU $ dropped to about $0.55 US, that was given as the reason for a massive increase in book prices. Now the AU $ has gotten back to over $0.70 US, and the prices have not changed. I have talked to the importers here and asked why this is the case, and have been told that the price they pay (in AU$) has not changed with the dollar change; I have got this from multiple sources. International shipping charges make the purcase of books from the US online too expensive also.

The only way I had to get RPG books at a reasonable price was PDF through RPGNow. Anyone who moves to DriveThruRPG has made their product unavailable to me. I hate the fact that just as technology was getting to the point where I could afford to buy RPG products on a regular basis again, policy from the publishers looks like it ruin it all again.

I know I am ranting again. But the more I look into this, the more it seems that the price of RPG suppliments is going to kill the hobby more than anything else.

Richard Canning


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## rknop (Jun 8, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> However, we wouldn't have made the change if we didn't think that they could provide the service our customers require. In fact, if you talk to someone who's actually *used* DriveThru, you'll find that they'll most likely tell you that it was easy, quick, and that customer service (if you need it) is also quick and helpful.




I've used RPGNow.com.  (I've purchased a few things there, including some stuff from Malhavoc.)

And, I can tell you that it's easy, quick, painless, and efficient.

So what exactly is it that the move to DriveThru will be providing that your customers require?  The "need" to have a less-functional PDF (which some of us, includng myself, aren't even able to use even if we were willing to live with the restrictions) than we used to be able to get?

Monte, please don't try to portray this as a move to "help your customers".  It's not clear what the customers get _at all_ out of this.  You can explain why it's a good move for you, and why it's not so bad for the customers-- but given how good RPGNow.com is, and given that the PDFs we can buy now at the same price are less functional than the previous ones, it's a bit insulting to expect us to swallow that this is a move that's supposed to be told that this is being done for us.

-Rob


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## Zaukrie (Jun 8, 2004)

Anybody find a privacy statement on the site yet? My phone number is a required field?

I'd like assurance my phone number and e-mail won't be sold or used to call me with offers for stuff I don't want.

Monte, I love your work, and I appreciate that you've participated in this discussion (haven't seen a lot of other publishers here yet), but I think you've temporarily, possibly permanently, lost a customer due to 10 copies per 10 days rule. I'm also not keen at all on a company tracking my usage of their product, one of two reasons I don't have Tivo.

(as always, I reserve the right to spell badly)


----------



## Sir Whiskers (Jun 8, 2004)

The Mad Kaiser said:
			
		

> /Still Off Topic/
> 
> *
> RED-STARLIGHT FINEST-BREWS
> (ELVEN BEER)*




Yep, that's what I was talking about. I'll pick up one and give it a try. 

BTW, I did check EnWorld for reviews, but only one product was listed and it wasn't one of the Kaiser's Bazaar line. I completely forgot that RPGNow attaches reviews to the products themselves (Oops).


----------



## Elephant (Jun 8, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> [/font]
> Listen up, all you smug software pirates: you have driven Malhavoc into using Digital Rights Management to protect their assets. Next time you are blithely stealing someone's intellectual property, reasoning that 'no one gets hurt', think about everyone on this thread who will be inconvenienced by the shift to DRM.
> 
> But you Internet thieves never bother to think about anything other than yourselves, do you?




Please tell me you're being sarcastic.

Please?


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## darklight (Jun 8, 2004)

Though there is currently an increase in the number of pdf's because of more companies releasing pdf's on DriveThru, I fear this could, in the long run, lead to a _decrease_  in the number of pdf's being released. My reasoning is that the whole DRM debacle will likely drive away a lot of potential costumers, which in turn could mean that the companies that have just decided to release DRM-crippled pdf's might think that the number of sales is too low to bother and so will stop releasing pdf's :\ 

I sincerely hope this will not be the case...

As many others have already stated, DRM will not, in any way diminish piracy, it only punishes the legit costumers. And so many books get pirated even if they are not released as pdf's anyway, so releasing them as non-DRM-crippled pdf's will most likely have very little influence on the number of pirated copies floating in cyberspace.

I wonder if there is additional cost for the publisher associated with DRM? This has been the case with DVD's where the publisher would pay a licence fee to whatever company made the copyprotection software. I distincly remember reading that Warner Brothers had elected not to spend the extra 2 cent per dvd when releasing Matrix: Reloaded, figuring it would not be worth it, since it wouldn't stop piracy anyway and selling millions of copies, 2 cent per copy is a substantial amount.

Oh, a site note: according to Danish law, it is perfectly legal to make a personal copy of _any_ copyrighted work, even including books or cd's you loan from the library, since the authors/artist get money for their work just being at the library. (Not that this has much to do with the discussion.)

darklight


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## Cernunnos (Jun 8, 2004)

Hate to say this, but if you think this is going to stop piracy, you are sadly mistaken.  
You can use this little program (http://www.elcomsoft.com/apdfpr.html) and if even one person who has this program has a password, you can make an un-passworded copy and dissemminate it.  And if they don't have a password, theoretcially they could brute-force it (granted, this could take a few years of computing time).
Granted, at the very least its going to slow it down...


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Gimme a break.
> 
> So a store with videocameras and other security is also treating all its customers like potential criminals?




Give ME a break. 

A store with videocameras and other security - in the store - is not treating it's customers like potential criminals. 

A store with videocameras that follow you home after you've purchased the product, is.


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## Henry (Jun 8, 2004)

Cernunnos said:
			
		

> You can use this little program (http://www.elcomsoft.com/apdfpr.html) and if even one person who has this program has a password, you can make an un-passworded copy and dissemminate it.




Elcomsoft's program does not disable DRM security, I believe. Also, a couple of users in this thread have already mentioned that cracks for DRM's are available (NO ONE POST DRM CRACKS IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE - they would be removed), so it's not the hardest thing to find with a google search and a creative mind.

However, 99% of purchasers of PDF's aren't going to go looking for cracks for them because they want to do the right thing, or have problems involving their user platforms that cannot be solved so easily.


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## Terramotus (Jun 8, 2004)

You know, when I first read about this, I was pretty disappointed, but I had planned to continue purchasing Malhavoc products in print form.  After all, I've been a big fan for a long time and was planning on running an AU campaign after my current one wraps up.  I'll just avoid the format I don't like.  After reading Monte's Line of Sight about this, I'm just plain angry, and any enthusiasm I had for his products has drained away.

I simply cannot find a way to understand his attitude.  There is absolutely not one single thing I gain through this shift with regard to Malhavoc Press products.  I honestly don't care if this company has good customer service because in six months if it goes under or is scrapped my purchase is useless.  I find DRM to be insulting, and this kind is particularly odious, as it removes many of the advantages of the medium.  Piracy is indeed a problem in the digital age, but I resent the solution being taken out of my hide, so to speak.  I wouldn't buy the same book in print form if it had a chip inside that wouldn't let me open it if I were gaming at a friend's house either.

The out of print stuff he mentions is nice to see, I suppose, but what I always saw as one of the cooler aspects of PDFs is that many of the difficulties in distribution were simplified for the publisher and the savings were passed on to the consumer.  In many cases this is not true with the books available on DriveThruRPG - the print versions are near the same price.  Yes, I'm sure that in this context, with the same prices and distribution difficulties removed, a publisher could indeed see this as the "next big thing".

But as far as Malhavoc products are concerned, this is not "cool".  It's simply another a huge hurdle for customers to jump over, one which I'm not interested in jumping.  The big thing that's missing for me is the reasoning involved.  If this were a contractual thing, that's fine.  I can live with that.  If there were problems with RPGNow, I could live with that.  He needn't toe the company line so enthusiastically, but I could still live with that.

If I take him at his word, however, I am forced to conclude that he essentially sees putting his customers through this as a good thing.  If that's the way you feel about my patronage, fine.  I'll take my business elsewhere.  I guess that cool little company I thought was different from the others isn't so different at all.


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## Kitsunekaboom (Jun 8, 2004)

I don't like the .pdf format in the first place, Acrobat isn't exactly the most friendly piece of software I've ever had on my computer. It doesn't tend to play well with others. (Blasted public education...) I also hate the idea of having to register every computer I wish to use a product on with Adobe. I don't like registering software period because frankly, it's no one's business once I purchase the product. 

Making pdfs more inconvenient isn't going to make me want to buy more of them. I have been known to purchase ebooks from time to time. I also frequently back up my system (re: everything on my system) due to a slight paranoia with previous backups not functioning. What's the point of buying an electronic product I can't back up as much as I do everything else on my system?

It also seems a bit more expensive than RPGNow for the most part. I haven't looked through the whole site however, mostly because the site is pathetically slow and I do have other things to do with my time. 

This new site won't be getting my business full stop. There's just no reason to give it to them. (And I happen to like White Wolf quite a lot, so it's kinda sad really).

Just noticed something in the Line of Sight article mentioned in the post above me; "You won't be able to make copies of the file and email them to your friends, but I suspect the vast majority of you weren't doing that anyway."

Okay, so if most of the people who bought these products were not suspected of this then why is this necessary? Seems kinda silly to say that in this situation.


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## DaveStebbins (Jun 8, 2004)

I don't like the dig towards RPGNow placed in the press releases. Both the Malhavoc and Fiery Dragon sites describe DTRPG with the same phrase, "DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site..."

That seems to me like a bit of a low-class blow for two publishers I respect so much.

-Dave
"Manners are a sensitive awareness of the feelings of others. If you have that awareness, you have good manners, no matter what fork you use." --Emily Post (1873-1960) etiquette expert


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## NeghVar (Jun 8, 2004)

Deamoclese,

Didn't see the Canadian location in your profile mate...my apologies.   



			
				Deamoclese said:
			
		

> As noted accurately by others, I am unaffected by the DMCA... I should note that I did this to see how hard/easy it was, not to file share it... and yes, file sharing laws in Canada are close to nonexistant. (In short, the law only states that you can only share files with individuals on the internet that you "know" ... obviously a huge loophole and there's no current attempts to close this loophole).
> 
> The only hard part in cracking the file was the time spent google searching it... once I found it, I was amazed how little I actually had to do.
> 
> ...


----------



## Rasyr (Jun 8, 2004)

DaveStebbins said:
			
		

> I don't like the dig towards RPGNow placed in the press releases. Both the Malhavoc and Fiery Dragon sites describe DTRPG with the same phrase, "DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site..."
> 
> That seems to me like a bit of a low-class blow for two publishers I respect so much.



Well, I am sure that you can blame that part on White Wolf, errr... I mean DriveThruRPG since they obviously wrote that portion of it.

You would also do well to remember that RPGhost from RPGNow has already stated that White Wolf tried to buy RPGHost as while back.  Also that the same people who own White Wolf also own Publishing Services, Inc, which in turn owns DriveThruRPG.

While there are a few others that have exclusive contract with DTRPG (all the contracts with DTRPG are exclusive so that publishers are NOT ALLOWED to sell PDFs anyplace else), it is important to also note that every single company published under S&SS is a customer of DTRPG. Makes you wonder if that had anything to do with those companies signing up with DTRPG. Although I am sure that they will all deny it. As for those not under the S&SS banner - who knows why.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 8, 2004)

I'm not going to punish Monte by not purchacing print products for his Line of Sight article. It seems that WW has put a contractual obligations on all their print lines to use their (if the same people own something it is basicly the same  company) new pdf distribuion company and standards, made even more certain in my mind by all of the parties refusing to answer this question in any way. Now since Monte is probably required to use this new company he realy only has one choice and that is to put the best face forward and embrace what he has to work with. Just imagine the reaction that would come about if he even slighly hinted he wasn't happy with the araingement. He would be quoted left and right to show how bad the new system is. Many people respect his opinion and many of them would be even more inclined to boycot DTRPG costing him even more sales. Any hint by Monte that that he was forced into this against his will could also cost him his print distributer as WW might be inclined to drop him for breaking contracts and costing them sales. No company in their right mind will publicly critize even a bad descion of theirs until such time as the writing is on the wall and the decision to change course has already been made since to do otherwise only insures that failure will follow. No, Monte is a good guy and is only doing what is best for Malhavoc so I don't want to punish him. This doesn't mean I support DRM and DTRPG or will ever buy something from them, just that the real culprit in my mind is WW and not the independant companies they distribute. If I am wrong and DTRPG is succesful Monte looks good in his choice, if DTRPG fails, as I suspect it will, we will likely hear the real story then.


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## BSF (Jun 8, 2004)

*sigh*

I've been looking through the drivethrurpg.com site and I am ambivalent at best about the majority of products offered.  There are a few things I would have an interest in picking up, if it weren't for the prices.  FFG has their products online and most of them are things I can get cheaper in print.  Why would I want to buy a PDF that I cannot show my friends without printing out at a more expensive price?  

I do see some nice OOP products that would be nifty to pick up.  However, I will need to upgrade my Acrobat Reader, register it with Adobe (something I loath),  or I can use a .NET password (Something I loath even more than Adobe) and then I can start shopping.  While I like many of Adobe's products, and I use many MS products, I do not receive any real added value using their registrations.  *shrug*  That's just me though.  

So, what I am looking at is enforced upgrades of Adobe Reader, which requires uninstalling previous versions and downloading the latest across my modem.  I need to choose between the lesser of two evils to register my right to use the protected PDF. Then I can download and use the product.  Once I have it downloaded, I can back it up using the built-in feature of Acrobat Reader, which is a different process than backing up my hard drive.  To actually read it, I need to register every computer that I want to use it with.  Now, at various times I have had FreeBSD, Redhat Linux, Solaris, SCO Unixware, Windows NT, Windows 95, Windows 98, etc. installed at my house.  I have also had different Palm OS devices and am considering looking at a couple of new versions of OS's.  I'm probably not your "average user", but I am not all that unique either.  In short, it will become a hassle for me to be able to use my PDF's.  

Let's see, go through a hassle to pick up some old stuff just because I think it is neat, even though I would be lucky to get to play it once every couple of years.  Hmm, not that appealing.  Now, the stuff I find more interesting is the non-OOP stuff.  Unfortunately, many of those publishers haven't figured out the economics.  Malhavoc's stuff is still priced in a manner that I can choose to print it out without spending too much on the printing.  But, for something like FFG's stuff, I can buy it in print format cheaper than I can from DrivethruRPG.com.  But, even now, I will need to go through the hassle of registering DRM to use any Malhavoc PDF's.  It might happen.  

I'm not going to predict doom and gloom.  Perhaps this will be the kick that the market needs to gather steam and broader acceptance.  But, I think I will stick with RPGNow.com.  They have good, interesting products as well.  I've never had a problem with their customer service.  The PDF's I buy there are portable across multiple machines & OS's without too much hassle for me.  I'll check back at DrivethruRPG.com from time to time, but there won't be any impulse buys until somebody puts out a product that is so compelling that I must have the PDF.  As much as I like the work of some of the imprints/publishers, there is a pretty steep barrier to make me register to use DRM.


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## Dark Psion (Jun 8, 2004)

DaveStebbins said:
			
		

> I don't like the dig towards RPGNow placed in the press releases. Both the Malhavoc and Fiery Dragon sites describe DTRPG with the same phrase, "DriveThruRPG.com is the first completely professional gaming e-Book site..."
> 
> That seems to me like a bit of a low-class blow for two publishers I respect so much.
> 
> ...





That was what really pissed me off before I made my previous post. 

*Sigh* and I was so looking forward to Hyperconsciuosness and Beyond Countless Doorways. 
Will I buy the print version at the end of the year? 

Depends, by then there will be a lot more reviews, good or bad and I would have bought the Psionic book pdf. the second it was available. 

Now, I will just wait and see.


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## fanboy2000 (Jun 8, 2004)

*A few facts*

This thread seems short on facts and long on fears and philosophical debate   

Here's what I found. 

I downloaded the free adventure. To do so, I had to register with DTRPG (duh) and Adobe. I didn't need to register for a MSN Passport (although, there is an option to do, and use that instead). 

Once you register with DTRPG, there's a link at the top of the home page so you can activate DRM on that computer. 

I oppened the file, no problems. Looks like a pdf and can be saved as one. It seems you can copy the file on your computer as much as you want. (A warning comes up, saying that you can't modify the file, but I don't think that's posible with just Acrobat reader anyways.) You can make as many back-up files as you want. (DTRPG even uses backing the file up to a CD as an example on its FAQ).

I copied the file from my Mac to my Windows machine via my home network. When I went to open the file, Acrobat went through a bunch of stuff, conecting to the internet and such. Then it said I hadn't activated DRM on that computer and sent me to their website and I had to sign in with my Adobe acount (but said that MSN passport was prefered). Once I signed in, I got the "We couldn't detect Acrobat 6.0 on your computer, are you sure you have it? If yes, click here." I got this on my Mac, which is to be expected, but WinXP? Clicking  the link activated the DRM and both my computer are now listed with on Adobe's website as being DRM activated. I expect them to call me anyday now to tatto 666 me.   

Once it was opened, I didn't need to be connected to the internet. 

Acording to DTRPG you can print an unlimited number of copies. And you can view them on any computer you register with the Satan's minon . . . oops I ment Adobe. 

The biggest restriction, by far is copy and past. You can copy 10 selections or 10 pages every 10 days. I'm not sure how much of a hiderance this is to people. Last time I did a lot of copy and pasting, it was spells from the various Eldritch books. I don't know if that would have gone over the limit or not. Sence it refreshes every 10 days, it not like you won't be able to copy text years after you buy it. But, if you have a lot of text you need to copy from a file for a game this week, you could be hosed. 

I would suggest two things for DTRPG. 

1. Make it so the customer only nedds to register on your website. To use the file on another computer, make it so that the customer can enter a password to access the file without having access to the internet.

2. Lift the copy and paste restriction. DMs like my self don't print the whole product, we copy and paste what we like into word processors that contain house rules for our game. For example, I make PDFs of my campaign setting for my players and print it out for them, so they have something to refer to.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

fanboy2000 said:
			
		

> 2. Lift the copy and paste restriction. DMs like my self don't print the whole product, we copy and paste what we like into word processors that contain house rules for our game. For example, I make PDFs of my campaign setting for my players and print it out for them, so they have something to refer to.




Monte has suggested that he and other publishrs may get the site to relax that feature.  Hopefully, that will happen.


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## Mercule (Jun 8, 2004)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> In the intrest of fairness, you might want to email Malhavoc and tell them exactly how you found it. If its a security risk to their welbeing they deserve to know.



Or not, since the only way I'd consider downloading a DRM file is if I knew I could crack it.  Of course, I'm not likely to purchase an uncracked PDF, in the first place.  Nor am I likely to share them with anyone -- I'm a software developer, so I understand the idea of loss from piracy.

PDF is for out-of-print material, previews, freebies, and start-ups, IMHO.  If you're putting out your current material in PDF, it's an open advertisement that you're still not established or stable.  Anyway, that's the message it sends me.  But that's a rant for another time.

PDF has it's place, it just isn't ready for prime time.  For instance, I'd take the free copy of Exalted, which is a book I wouldn't even pay $3 for when my NSFLGS went out of business last year.

But, to top it off, it requires you get MS Passport!  I don't think so.

I'm pretty much a Microsoft fanboy.  I program ASP.NET, VB.NET, MS Access; use MS Office for all my needs, including Outlook for email; prefer IE to any other browser; love WinXP; and promote all of the above.  Passport, though, is a wretched little bastard that should be fed to the clown in the sewers.  It says a lot to have a technology that even your fans hate.


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## Kesh (Jun 8, 2004)

I'll just be (possibly the first) one to say, I'm planning on buying products from this site. I've been registered with Adobe for a long time now, so this isn't a problem for me. Products that are overpriced will be ignored, stuff that's in my budget will be bought. I expecially like seeing the older White Wolf products and current GoO products on there.

It's really no more trouble than any other product I've purchased online. Software registrations, anyone?


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

All right, I've tried to defend Monte Cook, and the new site, and gotten attacked for it.  

One thing I'll ask: A lot of people complain that there is no benefit for the consumer in this change.  That's certainly true on the face of it, and I don't think Monte says otherwise.  Some people have implied above that Monte is trying to say that he is doing this for the benefit of customers.  I don't read it that way.

But what's wrong with DriveThruRPG and the publishers who sign on trying to enable some protections to their property?  If it makes sense for their business, what's wrong with it?  Malhavoc Press or any other publisher aren't obliged to provide unprotected PDFs if it makes better business sense to do otherwise.

Considering the widespread illegal trading of PDF files on the net, I think it's reasonable to do something to protect theft.

I don't know how effective this method will be.  I don't see anyone offering better solutions. (EDIT: OK, that's not true but still, I don't think anyone knows a definite solution)

I certainly don't buy the argument that it will be ineffective because the DRM can be easily cracked.  A lot of people won't bother to do even the 15 minute google-search.  Anyway, it's not about preventing copyright theft, it's about reducing it, which may (or may not) have a positive effect on the site's and the publishers' revenue.

Regarding the problems with registering and sharing informtation wiht Adobe and what not, that may be a legitimate concern.  I went ahead and did what was necessary to get the free PDF; I don't think it will have any negative consequences to me and I'm fine with it.  Others clearly are not, but I guess that's the choice people have to make.

This issue is generating a lot of negative feeling and that obviously might lead to publishers on DrivethruRPG loosing customers, but I'm still not sure.  I think some people complaining now will see one of Malhavoc's later cool releases, like _Beyond Countless Doorways_, and decide to go ahead and purchase it and download it despite the restrictions.  If not, people can choose to buy the print versions, buy other companys' PDFs, or simply not to buy anything.  Nobody's forcing anything on anybody.

Another thing to mention is that DriveThruRPG is selling print products previously unavailabe in PDF format.  That's certainly a good thing.


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## RCanning (Jun 8, 2004)

I don't really have a problem with DRM as a form of protection, except that it strips 90% of the value from the PDF. I am sick of paying 2-3x what the US pays for product (after converting costs) and RPGNow was a way around that. Now that printing is no longer really possible (I don't own a good quality colour laser printer, and I can't print anywhere that does) PDF product is too pricey with DRM.

I can live with having to register. I can live with having to backup using Acrobat Reader. I don't yet know for certain if I have to be online to use the PDF, but if I do, that is a deal killer. I know I can't print on a printer I don't own, and that is a deal killer.

All of my concerns come from not being able to print them at work anymore; and not being able to print from a printing outlet. These are the deal killers.

DRM sucks not because I can't give stuff to my friends (which I did not do anyway); it sucks because I can't use the material I purchase to full effect. I have photo quality printers at work, and can't use them....!!!!

Richard Canning


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## Elephant (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> But what's wrong with DriveThruRPG and the publishers who sign on trying to enable some protections to their property?  If it makes sense for their business, what's wrong with it?  Malhavoc Press or any other publisher aren't obliged to provide unprotected PDFs if it makes better business sense to do otherwise.




What's wrong is that it does a great disservice to their customers.  As a potential customer, I don't care whether they feel more secure by selling crippled products.  I won't buy the crippled products.  It's bad for me, which means that it's ultimately bad for them.


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## ToddSchumacher (Jun 8, 2004)

RCanning said:
			
		

> *Snip*
> 
> I have photo quality printers at work, and can't use them....!!!!
> 
> Richard Canning





Are you really supposed to be using them for RPG stuff anyway?


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

Elephant said:
			
		

> What's wrong is that it does a great disservice to their customers.  As a potential customer, I don't care whether they feel more secure by selling crippled products.  I won't buy the crippled products.  It's bad for me, which means that it's ultimately bad for them.




There's another way to view that.  Monte could be viewed as doing a service for making is products available in PDF format at all.  Many publishers only offer print products.  Monte Cook offers nearly all his products in print and digital.  If you don't like crippled PDFs, buy the print versions.

IMO, offering a product, with some limitations for security, is not a disservice.  It is in fact still a service.  You can choose to buy it or not.


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## marketingman (Jun 8, 2004)

There is nothing wrong with them starting a business, That  how it works people see a need feel they can profit from it and fill the gap. There by hoping for profit. After all that is business.

It just gamers are  resistant to change and are protective of thier"games" People who strive to break inot markets are always attacked and hate by a vocal minority. After all there are far more lurkers then poster on this subject. No lets go back and see who has multiple post on this thread now lets devivide that by the number of views and it will be well under 10 percent possibliy has low has 3 percent.

Time for some more coco.


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## marketingman (Jun 8, 2004)

Quick numbers crunch.
This site will reach 2.5 percent at post 211

The poll will you buy from DTRPG will reach 5 percent at post 78


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## darklight (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said: 


> There's another way to view that. Monte could be viewed as doing a service for making is products available in PDF format at all. Many publishers only offer print products. Monte Cook offers nearly all his products in print and digital. If you don't like crippled PDFs, buy the print versions.




Thats not really the point though, you are correct that this is still a service, but it is a lesser service than what is was before (on rpgNow) without any benifit to the consumer, and most likely no benifit for the publisher either.

johnsemlak also stated:


> I certainly don't buy the argument that it will be ineffective because the DRM can be easily cracked. A lot of people won't bother to do even the 15 minute google-search. Anyway, it's not about preventing copyright theft, it's about reducing it, which may (or may not) have a positive effect on the site's and the publishers' revenue.




This argument is flawed. No, most people probably wont bother finding a way to crack it, but the ones who are interested in sharing it certainly will, which means it will have _no_ effect whatsoever in reducing piracy. Instead all it does is reduce the usefulness for the legitimate consumer, in turn probably affecting sales negatively, so it will most likely have a _negative_ effect on the site's and publisher's revenue.

In fact I'm amazed that the people behind DriveThruRPG haven't learned anything from the music, film and software markets. It seems evident that the attempts at copyprotection in these markets have had no impact on the amount of piracy, so why bother? This is exactly the attitude Warner Brothers took when releasing Matrix: Reloaded, as I mentioned earlier. Besides, the numbers I've seen on the sales of cd's in the UK show that piracy has not affected sales negatively, in fact the number of cd albums sold in 2003 was the highest ever in the UK! The only benifit DriveThruRPG might get from using DRM, is luring more publishers into the pdf field, by proposing a percieved security. This is definitely positive, but if the sales are low due to people refusing to buy DRM-crippled pdf's, it might actually have a negative effect, causing publishers to leave the pdf field.


darklight


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## Bloodstone Press (Jun 8, 2004)

Johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I don't know how effective this method will be. I don't see anyone offering better solutions.




 I think a better solution would be for the publishers to offer added value to those who buy the product legitimately. Rather than punishing everyone for the transgressions of a few, we should offer rewards to those who play by the rules. As I mentioned in another thread on this topic, positive reinforcement rather that mass negative reinforcement.  

 Specifically, publishers should update their books regularly and offer these updates free to anyone who bought the original. If you've got a pirated copy, you don't get anything else unless you pirate that too. 



			
				Darklight said:
			
		

> most people probably wont bother finding a way to crack it, but the ones who are interested in sharing it certainly will, which means it will have no effect whatsoever in reducing piracy. Instead all it does is reduce the usefulness for the legitimate consumer, in turn probably affecting sales negatively, so it will most likely have a negative effect on the site's and publisher's revenue.




 I agree. I'm reminded of a comment I frequently make in political discussions:
"Criminals, by definition, don't obey the law."


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## The Gryphon (Jun 8, 2004)

RCanning said:
			
		

> /snip/
> 
> So PDFs that are protected by DRM are now a lot more expensive than print products, and print products here are VERY expensive (A $20 US book is normally about $55-$65 AU). So all of a sudden, I can't afford RPG books anymore if more publishers go the way Malhavoc have.
> 
> ...



That's just not true, www.milsims.com.au sells RPG books for at most double the $US cost in $AU (and that includes GST). So try there.


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## hong (Jun 8, 2004)

RCanning said:
			
		

> All of my concerns come from not being able to print them at work anymore; and not being able to print from a printing outlet. These are the deal killers.
> 
> DRM sucks not because I can't give stuff to my friends (which I did not do anyway); it sucks because I can't use the material I purchase to full effect. I have photo quality printers at work, and can't use them....!!!!




Not, of course, that I am condoning mass reproduction of copyrighted material, or using company resources for private ends, but here's something you can do if you must have a protected file on two machines but only want to activate it on one. 

Install a Postscript printer driver on your PC, and set it to print to a file. 

In Acrobat Reader, print the pdf to this printer. This creates a (sometimes humongous) PS file. The 7.1Mb Exalted pdf turned into a 110Mb PS file when I tried this. 

Copy the PS file to the machine without DRM on it. With USB flash drives these days having a capacity of 256Mb or more, this shouldn't be too hard. 

Install something like Ghostscript and GSview (www.ghostscript.com) on this machine if you want to view or print the PS file. If you actually have a Postscript printer connected on this machine, you could also copy the file directly to the printer from the command line.


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## mhacdebhandia (Jun 8, 2004)

The Gryphon said:
			
		

> That's just not true, www.milsims.com.au sells RPG books for at most double the $US cost in $AU (and that includes GST). So try there.



Why would I want to buy from a company that sells 2004 D&D products under the publisher "TSR"?

Jesus Froghopping Christ.


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## Flyspeck23 (Jun 8, 2004)

Bloodstone Press said:
			
		

> I think a better solution would be for the publishers to offer added value to those who buy the product legitimately.



My sentiments exactly.




> Specifically, publishers should update their books regularly and offer these updates free to anyone who bought the original. If you've got a pirated copy, you don't get anything else unless you pirate that too.



That's simply the best way to disencourage piracy, while at the same time rewarding one's customers.
Of course that's not an option for any "fire and forget" publishers


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## 3catcircus (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> All right, I've tried to defend Monte Cook, and the new site, and gotten attacked for it.
> 
> One thing I'll ask: A lot of people complain that there is no benefit for the consumer in this change.  That's certainly true on the face of it, and I don't think Monte says otherwise.  Some people have implied above that Monte is trying to say that he is doing this for the benefit of customers.  I don't read it that way.




My gut instinct is that possibly Monte was forced into this deal because of the affiliation with White Wolf, and the fact that RPGNOW refused to sell their business to them (or the parent companies of RPGNOW and WW).



> But what's wrong with DriveThruRPG and the publishers who sign on trying to enable some protections to their property?  If it makes sense for their business, what's wrong with it?  Malhavoc Press or any other publisher aren't obliged to provide unprotected PDFs if it makes better business sense to do otherwise.




Nothing wrong with it, so long as it doesn't interfere with my use of the product after purchase.  It is well known that Microsoft doesn't agressively prosecute non-business pirating of their products because, even pirated, it ensures that they have a larger customer base - which means that those people will *eventually* buy a product from them.



> Considering the widespread illegal trading of PDF files on the net, I think it's reasonable to do something to protect theft.




Don't believe the exaggerated claims of such activity - pdf files are a drop in the bucket compared to print products - and illegal trading of pdfs represents an even smaller percentage.



> I don't know how effective this method will be.  I don't see anyone offering better solutions.
> 
> I certainly don't buy the argument that it will be ineffective because the DRM can be easily cracked.  A lot of people won't bother to do even the 15 minute google-search.  Anyway, it's not about preventing copyright theft, it's about reducing it, which may (or may not) have a positive effect on the site's and the publishers' revenue.




It *isn't* effective except for the technically inept (which most modern gamers aren't).  Do a quick search on google on "DRM" and "crack" and see how many hits you get.  Many people will be forced to use a crack because of the inability to do with the product what they want, after purchase.  Many more will use a crack because of privacy concerns.  The fact of the matter is that DRM is, was, and always will be an ineffective technology - in the audio world, it is the "analog hole," and in pdf world it is the "print and OCR hole."  The net effect will be negative as customers turn into former customers.  



> Regarding the problems with registering and sharing informtation wiht Adobe and what not, that may be a legitimate concern.  I went ahead and did what was necessary to get the free PDF; I don't think it will have any negative consequences to me and I'm fine with it.  Others clearly are not, but I guess that's the choice people have to make.




Why not start keeping a running track of how much spam you used to get before and after registering.  Additionally, "registering" smacks of "Papers, please!"



> This issue is generating a lot of negative feeling and that obviously might lead to publishers on DrivethruRPG loosing customers, but I'm still not sure.  I think some people complaining now will see one of Monte's later cool releases, like _Beyond Countless Doorways_, drool over it, and decide to go ahead and purchase it and download it despite the restrictions.  If not, people can choose to buy the print versions, buy other companys' PDFs, or simply not to buy anything.  Nobody's forcing anything on anybody.




I hope they go under, after dieing a slow agonizing death - the only way that companies (large or small) get a message is when customers make their voices heard - and the most effective way of doing that is through their wallets.


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## BryonD (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> IMO, offering a product, with some limitations for security, is not a disservice.  It is in fact still a service.  You can choose to buy it or not.




The move to DRM and exclusivity is a reduction in service.  The opposite of adding service.
Thus, by definition, a DISservice.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> The move to DRM and exclusivity is a reduction in service.  The opposite of adding service.
> Thus, by definition, a DISservice.



 Check your definitions.  That's not what my dictionary says.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> Don't believe the exaggerated claims of such activity - pdf files are a drop in the bucket compared to print products - and illegal trading of pdfs represents an even smaller percentage.



 Well, I believe that I suppose, but why do companies want to limit PDF trading if that's the case?



> It *isn't* effective except for the technically inept (which most modern gamers aren't).  Do a quick search on google on "DRM" and "crack" and see how many hits you get.  Many people will be forced to use a crack because of the inability to do with the product what they want, after purchase.  Many more will use a crack because of privacy concerns.



 I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who has that view.  The fact that its easy to crack for the technically inept doesn't make it less effective.  A ot of gamers won't bother.  Don't most poeple just print PDFs straight away, which is perfectly possible with the protected files?

Anyway, most security of any type that exists in this world can be easily cracked by a determined crook.  Door locks, car alarms for automobiles for example.  Any professional car thief can crack them in minutes.  Does that mean such things are ineffective?  No, they help prevent the casual thug.




> Why not start keeping a running track of how much spam you used to get before and after registering.



  It hasn't increased at all for me so far.  







> Additionally, "registering" smacks of "Papers, please!"



  I completely disagree with that.  The registration you have to do via Adobe is voluntary, in order to obtain a product to buy.  TO compare that to being stopped and demanded to show your papers is quite an exaggeration.

All sorts of sites on the internet demand you register to use the site, such as many newspaper sites.  I find it irritating too, but it's becoming a reality.



> I hope they go under, after dieing a slow agonizing death.




That's real diplomatic.


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## BryonD (Jun 8, 2004)

If you need to quibble over whether or not the definitions of the root word and the prefix are relevant, then knock yourself out.


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## WizarDru (Jun 8, 2004)

hong said:
			
		

> Not, of course, that I am condoning mass reproduction of copyrighted material, or using company resources for private ends,



 Oh, sure....you expect us to believe that?  I know all about your country, sir, and it's Xbox-Linux Vandals....and I am shocked, SHOCKED, sir, that you would claim otherwise. 

 I'll give them a test with the free download, and see how it pans out.  I'm not thrilled with using Passport, especially seeing the problems I experienced with it in the past, back when I played Asheron's Call.  My problem isn't with the DRM nearly so much as the convuluted nature of it.  

 I've rebuilt every PC in my house at least once so far this year...I don't like thinking that I won't be able to get my PDFs to follow me around, when I do so.


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## DaveMage (Jun 8, 2004)

3catcircus said:
			
		

> My gut instinct is that possibly Monte was forced into this deal because of the affiliation with White Wolf, and the fact that RPGNOW refused to sell their business to them (or the parent companies of RPGNOW and WW).




When it comes to publishing his works, I doubt that Monte Cook can be "forced" into doing anything he doesn't want to.


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## 3catcircus (Jun 8, 2004)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> When it comes to publishing his works, I doubt that Monte Cook can be "forced" into doing anything he doesn't want to.




Well - let me caveat by saying that I don't know the details of Malhavoc Press's business relationship with White Wolf Publishing.  That having been said, if Malhavoc has a contract with them that doesn't specify that they can choose any electronic publisher, then White Wolf could have easily said "You are gonna use these guys."  A small developer may not have the time or money to bring in lawyers or mediators to deal with a contract dispute and may be forced to capitulate or see their products not get published.


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## Zappo (Jun 8, 2004)

Oh, publishers certainly have the right to attempt to protect their products from piracy at the expense of fair use. And *I* have the right not to purchase their DRMed products, and to encourage others to do the same, and to hope that DRM dies painfully. That's what free market is about, isn't it?


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## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

Zappo said:
			
		

> Oh, publishers certainly have the right to attempt to protect their products from piracy at the expense of fair use. And *I* have the right not to purchase their DRMed products, and to encourage others to do the same, and to hope that DRM dies painfully. That's what free market is about, isn't it?



 Agreed.


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## Joshua Randall (Jun 8, 2004)

I wrote: 







> Listen up, all you smug software pirates: you have driven Malhavoc into using Digital Rights Management to protect their assets. Next time you are blithely stealing someone's intellectual property, reasoning that 'no one gets hurt', think about everyone on this thread who will be inconvenienced by the shift to DRM.
> 
> But you Internet thieves never bother to think about anything other than yourselves, do you?



Elephant replied:







			
				Elephant said:
			
		

> Please tell me you're being sarcastic. Please?



I am not being sarcastic. I am being vitriolic.

From Monte's Line of Sight column -- emphasis added:







> The point not to overlook is that *the DriveThruRPG site is full of PDF products from publishers who, up until now, were not publishing in electronic format. This is because of DRM.* See, DRM makes it much harder for pirates to distribute copies illegally (not impossible, of course -- nothing's perfect, particularly when it comes to computer security). Whether you realize it or not, *this has been the main reason the vast majority of roleplaying publishers haven't been creating downloadable electronic products*. Rightly or wrongly (I seriously have no desire to debate the truths of it), they have believed that piracy would hurt them.



There is a direct link between publishers' fears of piracy and their use of DRM to protect their assets. There is also a fair amount of wailing and gnashing of teeth going on (in this thread, and elsewhere) about the inconveniences of DRM. Thus, software piracy has directly contributed to creating problems for legitimate purchasers.

Now, here is some more vitriol. If you are a software pirate, you are a thief. You are no better than the robber who breaks into my house and steals my TV set. You can try to justify it to yourself in any way you choose, but deep down, you know that what you are doing is WRONG. And if you don't recognize that stealing is wrong, then you are a sociopath who should be locked up for a long, long time.

As for Malhavoc and others using DRM: I applaud your efforts. You have every right to use all legal means at your disposal to protect your intellectual property. It's a real shame that in our permissive age of destructive entitlement, the software thieves are roaming around engaged in mass piracy. But don't give in. Keep fighting the good fight. Ignore the flamewars by the petulant posters on Internet message boards. Run your businesses and make sound business decisions. And never forget that your product, whether it is a role-playing game or a widget, is a valuable commodity that deserves legal protection.


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## Tsyr (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who has that view.  The fact that its easy to crack for the technically inept doesn't make it less effective.  A ot of gamers won't bother.  Don't most poeple just print PDFs straight away, which is perfectly possible with the protected files?




Hell no. I sure don't. I'd be spending thousands and thousands of dollars on ink. Besides, where would I keep the immense reams of paper? I've printed *MAYBE* a dozen PDF products, and they take up a vast amount of space as it is.

It's financialy viable for people who print it at work, or some such, but most of us don't have that option.



			
				johnsemlak said:
			
		

> I completely disagree with that.  The registration you have to do via Adobe is voluntary, in order to obtain a product to buy.  TO compare that to being stopped and demanded to show your papers is quite an exaggeration.




The problem is, to REALLY make an analogy to the real world, we have to get a bit absurd.

Here would be about what the equivilant in the real world is.

To buy an RPG book, you first have to sign up for an account with the publisher (adobe) and the people who made the house you live in while reading the books (Microsoft). Then, you have to present this information to buy any book. This gives both of these outside parties complete access to information that is really not their buisness, every time you buy a product.

Each book is equiped with a GPS scanner. If you take it outside of a certain pre-defined range, a lock activates and the book wont open (Computer-specific registration).

Furthermore, the book has a timer in it. You can only read what it thinks is a 'fair' amount of it a day. You might be trying to memorize it and re-type it, after all (The copy/paste limitations).

This seems fairly draconion, doesn't it? Nobody would stand for this in the real world. And that's effectivly what you are saying "Isn't that big of a deal". Sure, you can say my example is redicious... After all, these aren't 'real'. But I spend 'real' money on them, and I don't feel like being treated like this.



			
				johnsemlak said:
			
		

> That's real diplomatic.




Screw diplomacy. Am I supposed to wish them well when I disagree with every single thing they stand for?


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## 3catcircus (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Well, I believe that I suppose, but why do companies want to limit PDF trading if that's the case?
> 
> I guess I'll have to agree to disagree with anyone who has that view.  The fact that its easy to crack for the technically inept doesn't make it less effective.  A ot of gamers won't bother.  Don't most poeple just print PDFs straight away, which is perfectly possible with the protected files?




You say that now, until you try to use a pdf in a way they don't want you to and get frustrated enough to take a few minutes to download a DRM crack.  And, no, most people *don't* just print PDFs.  Speaking for myself, I have every one of my hardcover books in pdf as well - It allows me to, for example, cut-n-paste a feat description to a character sheet for ease of reference during play - I don't want to have to disrupt a combat to thumb through (over a dozen) books until I find where the feat description is.  Actually, the *only* thing I print directly from PDFs are maps (typically from the old TSR 1st/2nd PDFs from SVGames or RPGNow.)  Heck - some people are even completely paperless when they game - running everything on a laptop.



> Anyway, most security of any type that exists in this world can be easily cracked by a determined crook.  Door locks, car alarms for automobiles for example.  Any professional car thief can crack them in minutes.  Does that mean such things are ineffective?  No, they help prevent the casual thug.




So - are you equating someone who legally purchases a product to a "...casual thug?"  Because that is what DRM does.



> It hasn't increased at all for me so far.    I completely disagree with that.  The registration you have to do via Adobe is voluntary, in order to obtain a product to buy.  TO compare that to being stopped and demanded to show your papers is quite an exaggeration.
> 
> All sorts of sites on the internet demand you register to use the site, such as many newspaper sites.  I find it irritating too, but it's becoming a reality.




There are two differences - the first is that newspaper sites make you register to view *their own* content.  What DRM pdfs do is force you to register with a third party, and one of dubious reputation.  The second is that newspaper sites only make you register to gain access to their content - once you are viewing that webpage, you can cut-n-paste into a text file innumerable times, save on your hard drive, send the text to someone else, whatever - no with restrictions.


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## Tsyr (Jun 8, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> As for Malhavoc and others using DRM: I applaud your efforts. You have every right to use all legal means at your disposal to protect your intellectual property. It's a real shame that in our permissive age of destructive entitlement, the software thieves are roaming around engaged in mass piracy. But don't give in. Keep fighting the good fight. Ignore the flamewars by the petulant posters on Internet message boards. Run your businesses and make sound business decisions. And never forget that your product, whether it is a role-playing game or a widget, is a valuable commodity that deserves legal protection.




I agree 100%

Keep screwing your customers in an attempt that is doomed from the getgo to not make one fricking dent in the amount of piracy, alienating long-time paying customers in the process, and go ahead and drive yourself into the ground.

There are plenty of other companies that need my money alot more than you seem to.

Hows that for vitriol?


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## saturnin55 (Jun 8, 2004)

*Update : Press Release (parody)*

(This is a cynical parody for your amusement only)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

8 June 2004

With the recent release of the highly successfull DRM technology, publishers of the RPG industry have agreed to extend this model to print products.  For now, every print product purchased will be secured with a system called PRM (Print Rights Managment).

Each softcovers and hardcovers sold will have a lock device to inhibit illegal piracy of our IP.  When a customer will want to read one of his legally purchased book, he'll have to call a toll-free number and ask for a security officer.  A security officer will be at your location within 30 minutes. First, you'll have to sign when the security officer will arrive. Then, he'll unlock your book and you'll then be free to read your book but the security officer will stay at your home to ensure you are not illegally copying more than 10 pages/10 days or scanning the book. Also, to protect your freedom and your rights to read a book quietly, he'll make sure there is nobody else than YOU reading the book over your shoulders.  Once your done, he'll relock the book and leave.  Because we do not want to discriminate people who don't have the phone at home, you'll have the option to install flying video camera at your home. The camera will recored and follow the book it has been ordered to check. The flying video camera comes with a 3' power cord.

To inhibit piracy, please note that you can't read your book if you are not at one of your registered address.  You can register only one residential address and one secondary address or less than six addresses but no more than five. Not that we do not support houses build with red bricks or that have windows older than 1998 . We do not sent any security officier on sailing boats since pirates like sailing boats.  If you leave in an area where penguins are roaming around, no security officer will be sent since we fear penguins and because it is well known that pirates like penguins.

The security device uses a masterwork lock, unlockable without a key (key model #K34T89) and tightly attached around the book with a beautiful christmas ribbon made of pure nylon. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CUT THE RIBBON WITH SCISSORS.  If you do this, your warranty is VOID, you'll go to jail, your mom will be mad and everybody will laugh at you.

Stevie Warez from Grey Howl Publishing said  : «We are trilled about this new model [...] Our customers will highly benefit from the PRM technology and we'll reach our goals : Inhibit priracy, better services and quality products to our customers and protection of our IP. We think the new model is convenient for our lovely customers and that most of the people who are yelling are probably pirates. We think the limitations imposed by the model are minors and are in no way restricting the freedom of our customers. We highly respect the freedom of our customers.»

Big Brother Corporation will be in charge of sending the security officers at your home.


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## PatrickLawinger (Jun 8, 2004)

Okay, this thread has so many statements in it that are just wrong that it is, well, rather amazing. Last time I checked the sky wasn't falling (although it is raining pretty hard here).
I am not going to start debating people's entrenched opinions but I do want to say one thing. NONE of the people publishing under the SSS/WW "umbrella" are obligated to release pdfs through "DTRPG." It is an option that these publishers were given. I sincerely doubt that Monte was a special case with WW "thugs" showed up at his house and twisting his arm. Hey, I could be wrong, but I rather doubt it.

WW does not own "DTRPG" although some of the same people do own and manage it. The fact that it is a separate corporate entity has a lot of business meaning that appears to be completely lost here, especially based on comments like the one below.

The vitriol in many of the posts here is rather impressive. I can't forsee publishers wanting to wade through 12 pages of "the sky is falling" and "the evil empire is coming" posts. Some people have wondered why publishers haven't come to this thread to answer "questions." I see few questions, just vitriol and personal attacks aimed at the "evil" publishers, or the "evil" DTRPG, or the "evil" adobe/DRM, etc.



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I'm not going to punish Monte by not purchacing print products for his Line of Sight article. It seems that WW has put a contractual obligations on all their print lines to use their (if the same people own something it is basicly the same  company) new pdf distribuion company and standards, made even more certain in my mind by all of the parties refusing to answer this question in any way. Now since Monte is probably required to use this new company he realy only has one choice and that is to put the best face forward and embrace what he has to work with. Just imagine the reaction that would come about if he even slighly hinted he wasn't happy with the araingement. He would be quoted left and right to show how bad the new system is. Many people respect his opinion and many of them would be even more inclined to boycot DTRPG costing him even more sales. Any hint by Monte that that he was forced into this against his will could also cost him his print distributer as WW might be inclined to drop him for breaking contracts and costing them sales. No company in their right mind will publicly critize even a bad descion of theirs until such time as the writing is on the wall and the decision to change course has already been made since to do otherwise only insures that failure will follow. No, Monte is a good guy and is only doing what is best for Malhavoc so I don't want to punish him. This doesn't mean I support DRM and DTRPG or will ever buy something from them, just that the real culprit in my mind is WW and not the independant companies they distribute. If I am wrong and DTRPG is succesful Monte looks good in his choice, if DTRPG fails, as I suspect it will, we will likely hear the real story then.


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## Grazzt (Jun 8, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Okay, this thread has so many statements in it that are just wrong that it is, well, rather amazing. Last time I checked the sky wasn't falling (although it is raining pretty hard here).
> I am not going to start debating people's entrenched opinions but I do want to say one thing. NONE of the people publishing under the SSS/WW "umbrella" are obligated to release pdfs through "DTRPG." It is an option that these publishers were given. I sincerely doubt that Monte was a special case with WW "thugs" showed up at his house and twisting his arm. Hey, I could be wrong, but I rather doubt it.
> 
> WW does not own "DTRPG" although some of the same people do own and manage it. The fact that it is a separate corporate entity has a lot of business meaning that appears to be completely lost here, especially based on comments like the one below.
> ...




C'mon now Pat...the sky is falling...didn't ya get the memo?


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## 3catcircus (Jun 8, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> WW does not own "DTRPG" although some of the same people do own and manage it. The fact that it is a separate corporate entity has a lot of business meaning that appears to be completely lost here, especially based on comments like the one below.




Being a separate corporate entity has only one business meaning - that sueing one company won't involve sueing the other (a la RICO statutes).  Being a separate corporation means squat when the people who own and manage both companies are the same people.  Don't be obtuse.


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## Goobermunch (Jun 8, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> Now, here is some more vitriol. If you are a software pirate, you are a thief. You are no better than the robber who breaks into my house and steals my TV set. You can try to justify it to yourself in any way you choose, but deep down, you know that what you are doing is WRONG. And if you don't recognize that stealing is wrong, then you are a sociopath who should be locked up for a long, long time.




While I agree with your point that intellectual property is still property and that the theft of it is wrong, your analogy is fundamentally flawed.

When you have your TV set in your home, the manufacturer no longer has possession and control of it.  When I break in and steal it, you no longer have possession and control.

If I take your intellectual property, the manufacturer, you, and I all have possession of it.  However, to the extent that any of us possesses it, none of us has exclusive control of it.

In this regard, then, the theft of intellectual property is a lesser wrong than theft of tangible property.  My theft of it does not deny anyone the possession of the property.

At the same time, this reveals the problems with DRM and attempts to control intellectual property.  They abrogate the fundamental concept of ownership-- exclusive possession and control.

Ergo, we need to develop new conceptual structures to deal with ownership of digital information.  Perhaps something like a tax on digital media to reimburse publishers who see decreased earnings due to piracy would work.  I'm not sure.

What I do know is that a person who engages in intellectual property theft probably isn't a sociopath purely on that basis.  There are clear rational distinctions between tangible and intellectual property.  Further, any punishment for stealing intellectual property ought to be lower than the theft of an equally valuable piece of tangible property.

--G


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## dcollins (Jun 8, 2004)

This might be late getting into the discussion but here goes...

I've bought several PDF products for D&D in the past few years (I guess about a half-dozen). I bought Monte's "Demon God's Fane" and really enoyed it. In a thread about a year ago I listed a set of bullet points in favor of PDFs over print -- such as ability to copy sections into my adventure notes, edit them, etc.

I abstain on the issue of what particular online distribution site a publisher uses, that's really neither here-nor-there for me.

However, as a working computer scientist, I will _never_ use or purchase Digital Rights Management (DRM) documents, ever. I need to move to different machines, I need to print, I need to make backups, I need to re-install systems, I cannot expose my computer to potential security threats like having unknown software lock up some parts of my data. That's totally unacceptable.


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## Berandor (Jun 8, 2004)

saturnin55 said:
			
		

> (This is a cynical parody for your amusement only)
> (snip)



 That is the worst analogy I have ever read. And that's saying something, including some of the analogies in this very thread.

Sorry, I failed my humor check.


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## francisca (Jun 8, 2004)

Let's summarize.  Prior to DriveByRPG, there were two channels to get a book in pdf format: pay or grab via P2P, newgroups, etc...

legal: go to RPGnow or some other outlet, pay, download.  you can copy/paste (unless it was locked out), and make copies using drag and drop all you want.  No registration, and if you computer crashes, you pull a copy off of your backup CD and keep going.

P2P: somebody has to purchase a pdf product and put it out on the net.  if it was a print-only product, some sucker has to scan it and put it out on the net.  Once downloaded, you have the same copy/paste and copy rights as if you bought it.

Now, if a pdf is sourced from DriveByRPG with DRM, here is what happens:

legal: go to DriveByRPG, pay.  register with adobe or passport.  download.  you have limited copy/paste, cannot view on other machines unless you register it as well, which adds a minor hassle, and at least in one case, more expensive to take to a copy shop and have printed.  if you delete it, or your computer crashes, you have to fork out for it again, unless you take an extra step above and beyond your normal backup procedure*

illegal: somebody pays for it, breaks the DRM (trivial) and puts it up.  Those who pickup the cracked copy now get all the functionallity of a non-DRM protected pdf.  in the case of previously print-only book, only the DRM needs to be cracked.

So, here is what I conclude:

1) The P2P networks will actually have more pdfs to share, as the most significant barrier to getting a copy of previously print-only product, scanning, has been removed.
2) #1 will actually create a windfall for previously print-only companies like AEG and FFG, as they will profit from the sales via DriveByRPG, which they would not have had otherwise.  In addition, I believe some people will look at the scans of previously print-only products and then go buy a hardcopy if they really like it, if they can find one.  Again, more money for previously print-only companies.  Unless they had to pay a hefty fee to DriveByRPG to offset the cost of the DRM license (very expensive, see the adobe website), companies like AEG and FFG will actually make some money.
3) Products which were available in pdf format already, will probably see a tiny (maybe they won't see it at all) drop in sales, as some folks just don't like DRM, and object to the registration of each and every machine.  You can disagree with people about whether DRM is a hassle, but the point here is that some people, like me, won't touch this stuff with a 10' pole.
4) Those who continue to buy pdf products which are DRM protected will have to deal with the restrictions.  Some won't mind, some will hate it.

So, good move (potentially) for FFG and AEG.  I really wonder what Malhavoc will be getting out of this, as illegal copies of their new DRM-protected pdfs will be just as available as their old ones, and I'm guessing sales may actually drop, though slightly.  Well, I guess they get the grief of annoying customers and snarky comments on messageboards, and the satisfaction of making it harder to use their product. :\  

I don't know who sold all these guys on the idea that DRM is secure, but they need to collectively kick his/her butt.

Oh, and Monte says something like, (paraphrasing) "if you actually talk to someone who uses DRM, you'll find that it is easy".  Ok, that's me.  It is not what it is all cracked up to be.  Professionally, I've dealt with DRM on three separate projects.  In all three cases, the clients all dropped DRM because it was way more hassle than what it is worth, and it did not do what it was supposed to do.  

People say that we are resistant to change, and that is why we don't like DRM.  Well, let me tell you, resistance to change is a strong motivator.  When I saw people who were not technically savvy *at all* finding ways to break the DRM protection so they didn't have to change the way they worked, I knew right then and there that DRM is a poor attempt at digital rights management.


*you do backup you system, right?


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## Tsyr (Jun 8, 2004)

Goobermunch said:
			
		

> In this regard, then, the theft of intellectual property is a lesser wrong than theft of tangible property.  My theft of it does not deny anyone the possession of the property.




It's still *wrong*, regardless.



			
				Goobermunch said:
			
		

> Ergo, we need to develop new conceptual structures to deal with ownership of digital information.  Perhaps something like a tax on digital media to reimburse publishers who see decreased earnings due to piracy would work.  I'm not sure.




God no. Move to Canada if you want this, I hear they are already trying it. For my self, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for all the software pirates out there. This is (fundamentaly) the same reason I oppose DRM. I don't do it, leave me out of it.


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## Tsyr (Jun 8, 2004)

Another thing, Joshua Randall, is that while you are slinging your vitriol about at all of us whiners, remember that a lot of are basicly being given the finger by this new technology, and left with one of two options:

1) Not use it at all, since, regardless of if a person would be willing to buy it or not, it now WILL NOT WORK for a lot of people now, either at all (People running OS9 or Linux, for example, or a PDA-type device that doesnt use Acrobat 6), or only after a lot of needless hassle (Laptops that arent connected to the internet, for example).

Mind you, for a lot of us, the biggest attraction of PDFs is portability to PDAs and laptops and the like.

-or-

2) Break the law and remove the DRM encryption. And as many others have pointed out, this is NOT HARD. If you understand exactly what DRM is and how it protects the PDF, you dont even really need to go find some shady hack... There are legit (As in, there is a good chance you have the stuff on your computer already, if you do PDF publishing or the like) ways to do this already.  (No, don't PM me asking me how, I'm not going to tell you.)

So this is the choice we are given. Be a criminal or be screwed.

I'm choosing be screwed, since I'd rather not be a criminal. But don't expect me to be silent and happy about it.

But at the same time, the people who pirate this stuff in the first place are already criminals, and they aren't going to give two flips about the legality of it.


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## Mercule (Jun 8, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> I've rebuilt every PC in my house at least once so far this year...I don't like thinking that I won't be able to get my PDFs to follow me around, when I do so.



I backup and rebuild my machine every 6-12 months.  It used to be 3-6 months, but I'm getting lazy.  Some people think that's overkill, but it's a habit I picked up when using Windows 3.1 and it gives me comfort.

Anything that makes backing up my data a PITA, isn't worth the time it takes to download, let alone any cash.


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## DaveMage (Jun 8, 2004)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> C'mon now Pat...the sky is falling...didn't ya get the memo?




No, he didn't have permission to access it on his computer...   

(Sorry, couldn't resist...)


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## Rodrigo Istalindir (Jun 8, 2004)

There are three types of use affected by DRM schemes.  The first is unrestricted personal use, and it is affected negatively by any DRM.  Even Apple's iTunes, which is fairly easy to legitimately work around, still makes working with your property harder than it needs to be.  This impacts the non-technical user the most, since they are least able to find ways to bypass the DRM, and are far more likely to experience technical issues (system crashes, etc) that cause problems dealing with DRM'd files.

The second is mass distribution of electronic content.  DRM does absolutely nothing to prevent this, since it is a trivial matter to bypass the DRM for a technically savvy individual, and *it only needs to be done once* and then uploaded to a P2P system. 

The third is casual copying among friends.  A DM buys a .pdf file and shares it with his gaming group, for example.  DRM will prevent this for the non-technical people who are unable to bypass the DRM or download a cracked copy off of a P2P network.  This makes it a pain, and less useful than a print copy, where you could at least loan it out.  Those who can pirate it, or bypass the DRM, are not affected at all.

One has to assume that those making the decision to employ DRM for these products understand all that.  They have to know they are not going to stop the people who will bypass the DRM or download the file from a P2P network.  The only rational explanation is that they are going after the casual copier that either can't or won't download a cracked file.  They aren't going after the whole-sale pirates, they are trying to recoup some imaginary lost sale -- the second or third hardcopy sale in a gaming group that they think they are losing due to electronic distribution.

The problem is that, for 99% of the products, there is no second or third sale within a group.  Outside of the core rules, how many gaming groups buy multiple copies of anything?  This is the same fallacious thinking that the RIAA/MPAA use -- that 1 pirated copy = 1 lost sale.

Some publishers see electronic distribution as a threat rather than an opportunity.   They view it as cannabalizing sales from print products rather than selling a product to someone who wouldn't have bought the print product in any event.   So, in pursuit of hardcopy sales they wouldn't have made in the first place, they risk alienating the individual users of their products, they risk losing sales of alternative products because some percentage of folks won't buy DRM'd files, and they stop the ready availability of their product on the P2P networks for 24 hours if they are lucky.

And a couple of things for those of you who see the current DRM implementation as no big deal.  First, you've surrendered your right to loan your product to your friends, a right you've long enjoyed with your print product.  Second, all of these DRM implementations are changeable at the whim of the owner -- and the owner is no longer 'you'.   Just as they could retroactively remove the 10 c&p limit, they could retroactively disable c&p altogether, limit the number of copies that can be printed, etc.


----------



## Numion (Jun 8, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> But at the same time, the people who pirate this stuff in the first place are already criminals, and they aren't going to give two flips about the legality of it.




Some are. My country, for example, has a lenient copyright law. Making _a few_ copies of copyrighted material for me, my family and my _associates_ (people I personally know) is perfectly legal under fair use. The law doesn't even say I have to own the original.

So don't be so quick to call anyone criminal.

About the copyright protection: it may well prevent average joe from copy-pasting too much of his bought PDF, but it only needs to be broken by _one_ person. Then the genie is out of the bottle and the cracked version will end up in P2P networks. It's not like car security - it's more like welding the doors shut for the ordinary carowner, while the thief has a skeleton key for all cars, all the time.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 8, 2004)

There are some interesting similarities between Software Piracy and Theft.

Most people today lock their rooms or houses. Why? Because they fear theft. 
But locks aren`t for free, and it is always a hassle to open a lock (especially for the occasions where you aren`t in ... perfect shape - like after a long party. Not the kind of problem I have, but some do  ), and sometimes you lose your keys, and you will have to get a professional to open the door. (Possibly damaging the lock, but at least having to pay the professional).
Some people even go further and get house alert systems. They are even more complicated to use (you have to remember and enter a code number, sometimes within a given time frame.)
Similar systems are found on bikes, cars or suit cases.
And all of these systems can be hacked.

See, we all go long ways to avoid theft.

The main difference between this and software piracy and its counter measure, Digital Rights Management, is: The protection against the software pirate is not for ourselves, it is for a company we have no other connection to as that we buy its products. 
I guess that is the main psychological difference, and the reason why many hate the DRM.
We might want to answer if there is also a philosopical difference? 
Maybe there is. We are all free to not lock up or bikes, cars or house, if we think it`s not worth it. And we have the right to do it, because its ours. 
But unfortuantely, this doesn`t apply for software or e-books. It is not ours in the sense of a bike that is ours. We have the right to use it, but the "idea" behind it, the "Intellectual Property", is not ours. 
Well, this can go on for a while... (Like: I can lend my bike to someone else if I don`t need it at the time, but it is still my property. But am I allowed to "lend" a software product to someone else, since I currently don`t use it? Unlike the bike, I am still able to use it. And I am sure the bike producers would favor if everybody bought its own bike and we would not lend our bikes to other people)

Finally, I think the main idea of DRM is not so bad. Be it a software company or an author, they have the right to get some money from the investments they took to create their product. 
But probably the execution is still quite poor.
(Another "philosophical" question: Should it be the duty of a software company or the author to sell me a product I can use without problems? I believe, current license agreements say otherwise in most cases, but shouldn`t there be some kind of "minimum usability guarantee"?)

Mustrum Ridcully


----------



## The Mad Kaiser (Jun 8, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Most people today lock their rooms or houses. Why? Because they fear theft.
> But locks aren`t for free, and it is always a hassle to open a lock (especially for the occasions where you aren`t in ... perfect shape - like after a long party. Not the kind of problem I have, but some do  ), and sometimes you lose your keys, and you will have to get a professional to open the door. (Possibly damaging the lock, but at least having to pay the professional).
> Some people even go further and get house alert systems. They are even more complicated to use (you have to remember and enter a code number, sometimes within a given time frame.)
> Similar systems are found on bikes, cars or suit cases.
> ...




Your argument is flawed.

Yes, you lock _your_ house. Very good.

Now _sell_ your house.

Do you keep the key?

Do you tell the new owners what they can and cannot do with their new house?

Do you tell them what kind of people can visit their new house?

Do you tell them how many times a day they can use a feature of the house, like the turlet or the fridge?

Do you insist that their house be conected to your webcam before they can use it?

If you did, you would be an A$$, and if anyone was stupid enough to agree to these things, yikes.

Go ahead and let these publishers screw you. Just know this: people that support companies that screw them are *stupid*.


----------



## Sir Whiskers (Jun 8, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> The main difference between this and software piracy and its counter measure, Digital Rights Management, is: The protection against the software pirate is not for ourselves, it is for a company we have no other connection to as that we buy its products.




This is a very important point. Ask anyone who's tried to initiate significant changes in a company and they'll tell you the number one reason such initiatives fail is resistance from the average employee, not management. To convince the typical employee to embrace changes, you have to make it worth their while.

You want the entire Accounting department to use your new, nifty, super-duper software? It better make their jobs easier, faster. It better give them extra functionality they didn't have before and that they *want*. In short, you need for them to have a stake in its success.

DRM doesn't do this. Monte makes an interesting argument, with some vailidity. Without DRM, some companies will never, ever make their print products available as electronic downloads. Whether or not that is a rational decision isn't important - it's the way some companies act. So having DRM provides a single benefit: legal availability.

Is this single benefit sufficient to encourage the average customer to embrace DRM? Not really. Some will accept it, many won't. As others have pointed out, the hassles of DRM can be minor or catastrophic, depending on the user and circumstances, but it's still a hassle. The rules of ownership are fundamentally changed under DRM, in which the publisher retains significant power to limit use of its product after purchase. Most of all, there is the (IMO, accurate) perception that DRM's sole purpose is to benefit the publisher, not the consumer.

In business terms, this strikes me as a terribly flawed model. I personally still don't understand the case for companies to use DRM. It alienates paying customers and does little or nothing to stop the thieves. IMO, if a company is so concerned with piracy they won't e-publish without DRM, they shouldn't be e-publishing with it. The case doesn't add up.

-------------

Just a quick note: some of the posts here have gotten way, way out of hand. This is an interesting discussion and I for one am enjoying it, even the posts I personally disagree with. Please keep the discussion civil. Let's avoid impugning the motives of anyone: publisher, gamer, poster. Let's stop the insults and name-calling. Being respectful of others is most important when discussing such topics as this. Thanks.


----------



## wocky (Jun 8, 2004)

hong said:
			
		

> Install a Postscript printer driver on your PC, and set it to print to a file.
> 
> In Acrobat Reader, print the pdf to this printer. This creates a (sometimes humongous) PS file. The 7.1Mb Exalted pdf turned into a 110Mb PS file when I tried this.
> 
> ...




You can use Ghostscript and GSView to convert the .ps file to PDF (just choose the "Convert" option from the File menu and choose PDFWriter as output). This new PDF shouldn't have any copy protection.

When installing a Postscript printer I recommend you use the HP Color Laserjet 5.

An alternative is to use CutePDF, which should make all the task easier.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 8, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Okay, this thread has so many statements in it that are just wrong that it is, well, rather amazing. Last time I checked the sky wasn't falling (although it is raining pretty hard here).
> I am not going to start debating people's entrenched opinions but I do want to say one thing. NONE of the people publishing under the SSS/WW "umbrella" are obligated to release pdfs through "DTRPG." It is an option that these publishers were given. I sincerely doubt that Monte was a special case with WW "thugs" showed up at his house and twisting his arm. Hey, I could be wrong, but I rather doubt it.




Is this an official statement that all people publishing under WW were free to choose?  I know you have written for several of these companies but are you able to make such an official statement? I have seen posts from Monte here and from WW over at RPG.net and this issue was never answered by either. Forgive me for not believing you but the circumstantial evidence seems say otherwise. I would be much happier to see Steve or Monte clarify this point. 



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> WW does not own "DTRPG" although some of the same people do own and manage it. The fact that it is a separate corporate entity has a lot of business meaning that appears to be completely lost here, especially based on comments like the one below.




As they were my comments I will defend them. I will agree that they are separate corporate organizations. But I will disagree that because they are separate corporate entities that this some how makes them behave counter to the best interests of the other when the same people are in charge of both. The shell companies that Enron set up to hide its debt were legally separate corporate entities but I suspect that most people would agree that they were in fact wholly controlled by Enron. Just because something is legally distinct doesn't mean that it is not in fact controlled by someone else. 



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> The vitriol in many of the posts here is rather impressive. I can't forsee publishers wanting to wade through 12 pages of "the sky is falling" and "the evil empire is coming" posts. Some people have wondered why publishers haven't come to this thread to answer "questions." I see few questions, just vitriol and personal attacks aimed at the "evil" publishers, or the "evil" DTRPG, or the "evil" adobe/DRM, etc.




No I can see your point that they wouldn't want to wade through 12 pages of people complaining about their business choices. However it probably would be in their best interest to anyway, because it is hard to run a successful business if you can't find support in a public discussion about your product. Even the supporters are saying that the product has problems but that the problems aren't as bad as others think. WW and DTRPG have a PR nightmare on their hands right now and running away and pretending it doesn't exist will not solve the problem.


----------



## francisca (Jun 8, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> The vitriol in many of the posts here is rather impressive. I can't forsee publishers wanting to wade through 12 pages of "the sky is falling" and "the evil empire is coming" posts. Some people have wondered why publishers haven't come to this thread to answer "questions." I see few questions, just vitriol and personal attacks aimed at the "evil" publishers, or the "evil" DTRPG, or the "evil" adobe/DRM, etc.



Your short sightedness is impressive.  Clearly you eat your own dogfood though, because if you had waded through the 12 pages, I think you would have seen some valid concerns, in addition to the chicken little treatment.

Welcome to the new economy.  These people you are belittling are also among the most likely to buy your products in electronic form.


----------



## BSF (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Don't most poeple just print PDFs straight away, which is perfectly possible with the protected files?




Absolutely not.  I keep the files on a computer.  I have many of my PDF's on a CD in my bag at work if I have some down time and want to work on stuff.  Since I do network and system administration, there are times when I am at work simply waiting for people to finish up and go home so I can do maintenance/upgrades.  Long hours in the middle of the night and I might want to work on gaming stuff to keep me distracted for a while.



			
				johnsemlak said:
			
		

> It hasn't increased at all for me so far.    I completely disagree with that.  The registration you have to do via Adobe is voluntary, in order to obtain a product to buy.  TO compare that to being stopped and demanded to show your papers is quite an exaggeration.




Heh - I am also the one that tweaks all the SPAM filters at work.  I can almost always tell when somebody in the company has registered new software because of the sudden increase in UCE.  Adobe and Microsoft are both guilty of contributing to this, though to their credit it is often just notifications of their products instead of widespread sale of their mailing list.  It has made me very cynical in regards to the value of registering products.



			
				johnsemlak said:
			
		

> All sorts of sites on the internet demand you register to use the site, such as many newspaper sites.  I find it irritating too, but it's becoming a reality.




This is true.  By and large, I do not frequent those sites either.


----------



## derverdammte (Jun 8, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> If you don't like crippled PDFs, crack them.



Fixed for me.


----------



## rushlight (Jun 8, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> 2) Break the law and remove the DRM encryption. And as many others have pointed out, this is NOT HARD. If you understand exactly what DRM is and how it protects the PDF, you dont even really need to go find some shady hack... There are legit (As in, there is a good chance you have the stuff on your computer already, if you do PDF publishing or the like) ways to do this already. (No, don't PM me asking me how, I'm not going to tell you.)



Again, breaking the DRM *is not illegal*.  It's not.  You can do it, I can do it, he/she/it can do it.  Whenever, wherever, and however you like.  You can do it with a shoe, you can do it with a canoe.  You can do it in a house, you can do it in...  Alright, I'm getting carried away.  

What you cannot do is _share the cracked file_.  (And even that is shady, as I can buy a physical book and give it to a friend - legally, a case could be made against all this hubub saying sharing is illegal.  But that would take money - that's why the RIAA only sues poor kids and old people.  Let's see 'um sue a lawyer's son or someone with enough income to blow some on principle.)

If there's a PDF you want, buy it.  If it's protected by some ignorant scheme, crack it.  Then use your file however you want.  As long as you don't actually give it to anyone, you never enter the grey area - thus no worries.


----------



## Berandor (Jun 8, 2004)

Well, I jump in quite late, but I wanted to investigate into the change before I posted. Rest assured, though, that I have indeed read the whole thread, and some of its spawn.

Let me describe my preferences. I use PDF a lot for my personal files, and while I own a few freebies, I have only bought somewhat around 5 PDF books. Among these are Malhavocs AU (except the core book, which I own in print), as well as BoEMII. I was also looking forward to Book of Iron Might, and am still.

I don't like reading a book on my computer. In fact, I tend not to do that when I can avoid it. For example, I even print out some of the Story Hours I read, especially when I have a lot to catch up on. I don't mind the electronic format of PDF files when dealing with so-called "crunch", because rules can be digested small parts at a time. I also like to cut/paste minor parts, like spell descriptions of feats, to other files.
But so far, I have printed out every PDF book that I own. To do that, I have either used the printer at work or a friend's work printer. I only have an inkjet at home, and I really don't want to print 200 pages with it. But I don't like reading on my computer. 

I already have an Acrobat ID, thanks to my registering Acrobat 5.0 full. So it's not a privacy issue, even though I am a little weary about a checking up my reading rights online and maybe wading through my HD in the process.

However, thanks primarily to the limited use on different computers, I cannot use PDFs the way I want to, and therefore I don't think I will buy from DriveThruRPG. I have also downloaded the free Exalted copy, as well as the free AU copy, to try it out. Aside from the speed problems, the download of the AU goodie was interrupted the first time, and I had to click on the file again on DriveThruRPG's home page. Now, I don't know whether I could have somehow resumed my original download, but I know that I don't want to risk paying for naught just because they don't get their connection to work properly.

I don't think DRM is the satan that some make it out to be, but I don't want to search online for a possible crack of a way to circumvent its protection, and I can't use my property the way I like to use it without cracking it, so I won't buy.

Sorry.


----------



## dungeondweller (Jun 8, 2004)

As a smaller RPGNow publisher, my take is this:

GREAT!

I've got no concerns about the continued prosperity of RPGNow and this just means we've lost some major competition. People are going to hate the protected format.

I'm betting this is a good thing for the remaining publishers at RPGNow.


----------



## derverdammte (Jun 8, 2004)

Also:



			
				johnsemlak said:
			
		

> All sorts of sites on the internet demand you register to use the site, such as many newspaper sites. I find it irritating too, but it's becoming a reality.



You've obviously never heard of http://www.bugmenot.com.    Required registration is a joke, especially when no one gives truthful information in the unlikely event that they actually register.


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 8, 2004)

*Drive Thru Car Dealership*

** A customer heads to Drive Thru Car Sales **

Customer: Hello there.  I was in the market for a new car.  

Car Salesman: Well, we sell cars.  Let me show you this beauty: The Ford Ebook. 

Customer: Well, it looks nice... but uh...

Car Salesman: Yes?

Customer: Well, uh?

Car Salesman: Yes?  

Customer: Why is there a boot on the wheel?

Car Salesman: Prevents theft.  Lotsa joyriders.

Customer: Why isn't there a boot on that car over there?  

Car Salesman: Oh, some jerk with a bobby pin picked the lock in 30 seconds and took the car for a joyride - we're just about to get it put back on. 

Customer: It doesn't seem to be all that effective in preventing joyriding then.

Car Salesman: Oh, we know.  But it's only to deter casual joyriders.

Customer: Like the one that picked the lock in 30 seconds?

Car Salesman: Exactly.  

Customer: So the boot does come off?

Car Salesman: Well, no. 

Customer: What do you mean no?

Car Salesman: Well, here's how it works.  We deliver it to your place, and if you want to drive, all you have to do is get an Austin cop to come over, unlock it.  You can drive it on ten highways over ten days, then the cop comes and locks it up again.  

Customer: Why does he do that?

Car Salesman: To make sure you're the only one driving the car, silly!

Customer: What if my friend needs to borrow it?

Car Salesman: He can't.  

Customer: Can a San Antonio cop unlock it? See, I'm thinking of moving to San Antonio.... 

Car Salesman: No... only an Austin cop.  And anyway, when you move, you need to buy a new car.  Maybe a car isn't for you.  Buy one of our bicycles instead.  Our main business IS bicycles.  

Customer: Can I speak to the manager?  I think this is absurd and would like to complain. 

Car Salesman: If you have a complaint, you should bring it up with the company that makes the boots.  

Customer: But I don't want to buy a boot.  I want to buy a car!  

Car Salesman: Do you reeeeeeally?

Customer:  No, I guess I really don't. 

**Walks across the street to Honest Phil's.**

Customer: Hello there.  I was in the market for a new car.

Honest Phil: What do you think of the new Chrysler PDF?

Customer: Well, it seems to be what I'm looking for. 

Honest Phil: Well, we are having a sale... 

Customer: So, where's the boot?

Honest Phil: We don't use boots.  They're more of a hassle than not using a boot. 

Customer: Then how do you stop joyriders.

Honest Phil: We don't *sell* to joyriders.  We sell cars to *customers.*  

Customer: I want to have your love child.

Honest Phil: There's a futon in the back office.


----------



## Flyspeck23 (Jun 8, 2004)

dungeondweller said:
			
		

> As a smaller RPGNow publisher, my take is this:
> 
> GREAT!
> 
> I've got no concerns about the continued prosperity of RPGNow and this just means we've lost some major competition.




Well, as another small(er?) publisher, I'm not amused. Just as the _Complete Spell Cards_ were about to climb higher than some _Malhavoc_ products (and in fact had already surpassed one or two), that joy is now stolen from me 

Besides, I won't ever regard fellow publishers as "competition". If they'd publish the same friggin' products, that'd be a different matter. But simply because they and TOGC share(d) the same market place we're not competing for customers. Heck, some of my customers probably visited RPG Now the first time, because they could get their Malhavoc Press stuff there...


----------



## tm80401 (Jun 8, 2004)

So, basically, everyone goes to bugmenot, gets the address listed there, uses it, and can access every file available.

cool.


----------



## Jim Hague (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> ** A customer heads to Drive Thru Car Sales **
> *SNIP*




Oh, good lord.  Funky's got a cause again.


----------



## Krypter (Jun 8, 2004)

Damn funny though. I have to agree with him. The only way epublishers will get people to use DRM is if they force them to do so by telling them they can only buy from this one location.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 8, 2004)

Thank you. That totally sums up my feelings on the subject. 

_Edit: This was in reference to the Drive Through Car Dealership - it was merged with this thread._


----------



## derverdammte (Jun 8, 2004)

tm80401 said:
			
		

> So, basically, everyone goes to bugmenot, gets the address listed there, uses it, and can access every file available.
> 
> cool.



It doesn't list paid accounts.  Mainly it's for annoying newspapers like LA Times and NY Times, where registration is required before you can read any of the articles.  You go to bugmenot.com, enter the site URL, then use the login provided, and gain access to the articles.  I was responding specifically to the "many newspapers require registration" comment.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> Honest Phil: We don't *sell* to joyriders.  We sell cars to *customers.*




That SOOOOOO hits the heart of the matter.


----------



## tm80401 (Jun 8, 2004)

Essentially, DRM assumes you want to do something illegal with the product and must be stopped.

It's kind of like putting a speed governor in your car, so you can't go over the limit the company wants you to.

Or installing a breathalyzer in every new vehicle, because drunk driving is illegal.


----------



## tm80401 (Jun 8, 2004)

Well...I have made my decison.  I wll not purchase any product with DRM in it.  Period.

If anyone talks to me about it, I will try to talk them into not purchasing such a product.

I am leaning toward not purchasing even print products from companies that sell PDF copies with DRM and encouraging my friends to do the same, because the companies are considering us to be criminals as a default.

But I'm kind of extreme that way.


----------



## Berandor (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> Car Salesman: Well, here's how it works.  We deliver it to your place, and if you want to drive, all you have to do is get an Austin cop to come over, unlock it.  You can drive it on ten highways over ten days, then the cop comes and locks it up again.




Again, that is simply a very bad analogy. Beginning with the fact that the "cop" only checks once; after checking whether I'm allowed to "drive", I am allowed henceforth.

Try it another way:

You buy Dungeon Magazine. However, Dungeon Magazine is only sold to D&D DMs. So you have to register at the International Dungeon Master's Lodge (IDuMaL) in Muncie, Ind. Registration is free; you only have to provide your address etc, as well as your biometric data (fingerprints et al, but let's stay at finger prints).
Now, when you buy Dungeon Magazine, you show your IDuMaL license to the clerk, and he sells you the magazine, which is then programmed to yourself. You see, Paizo uses a new technology of intelligent paper which can electronically scan finger prints.

So far, so good. Registration wasn't too bad, and showing the license when you buy the mag - doesn't matter. The only thing that might be problematic is the fact that the IDuMaL now has your finger prints in their files.
However, the new Dungeon also imposes a few rules on you. You see, all to often Dungeon Magazine became "group property", and there were even some people scanning whole adventures out of it and sending it via e-mail to friends and acquaintances. Paizo doesn't like that.
So now, whenever the mag is opened by someone with different fingerprints than yours, the pages go blank. It is important to note, however, that the pages only go blank when they detect an unknown print, not when the magazine is simply lying around. So you can simply wear gloves and read Dungeon. But wearing gloves while reading a mag with thin pages is an inconvenience, and it's most often not really worth it - unless you really want to circumvent buying a mag for your own.

Furthermore, the pages detect scanning lasers. You may only scan ten pages per tenday or the pages go blank again. You also may only make ten copies per tenday; in fact, it's ten copies/scans per tenday. So you can't copy the whole adventure for you to make notes on, or to change some details, or for ease of reference. You might even have a problem copying all the handouts for the players.

Do you still buy Dungeon? ETA: And if you do, do you also purchase a pair of gloves?


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 8, 2004)

Berandor said:
			
		

> Again, that is simply a very bad analogy. Beginning with the fact that the "cop" only checks once; after checking whether I'm allowed to "drive", I am allowed henceforth.




What, you want _accurate_ analogies in an internet comedy sketch?


----------



## Berandor (Jun 8, 2004)

Yes. Without it, there's no humor to find for me. Comedy is hard; making broad, inaccurate exaggerations is easy. So broad, inaccurate exaggerations do not equal comedy (imo).



Sorry, but I'm kind of snobbish in that regard.


----------



## johnsemlak (Jun 8, 2004)

derverdammte said:
			
		

> > Originally Posted by *johnsemlak*
> > If you don't like crippled PDFs, crack them.
> 
> 
> ...




Uh, I'd rather you not change my words, please


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 8, 2004)

My favorite anti-DRM argument so far: those offended/pissed/whatever because they feel the companies are considering them to be criminals. Come on, guys. Come up with something better.

Besides, it's not like the DRM is tough to crack or anything...


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 8, 2004)

rushlight said:
			
		

> Again, breaking the DRM *is not illegal*.




Actually, Rushlight, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 makes breaking the DRM even on products you own illegal.  

That law criminalizes not only the *act* of breaking the DRM or any other encryption designed to enforce copyright, but also criminalizes the ownership of any tools which may do so.

It's a bad law - according to the DMCA, ownership of a sharpie marker (which can be used to circumvent copyright protection on a protected CD) is punishable by up to 10 years in prison.


----------



## Berandor (Jun 8, 2004)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Besides, it's not like the DRM is tough to crack or anything...




Yeah, just wear a pair of gloves when the Austin cop arrives...

What?


----------



## DanMcS (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> Actually, Rushlight, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998 makes breaking the DRM even on products you own illegal.
> 
> That law criminalizes not only the *act* of breaking the DRM or any other encryption designed to enforce copyright, but also criminalizes the ownership of any tools which may do so.
> 
> It's a bad law - according to the DMCA, ownership of a sharpie marker (which can be used to circumvent copyright protection on a protected CD) is punishable by up to 10 years in prison.




The shift key on your computer is also a DRM circumvention tool, versus DRMed pseudo-CDs.  And just as illegal.  We can probably get in trouble for telling people these things, actually.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> ...but also criminalizes the ownership of any tools which may do so.




I guess all of us with Mac OS X is a criminal then, since that's all that's needed to crack this DRM.


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 8, 2004)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I guess all of us with Mac OS X is a criminal then, since that's all that's needed to crack this DRM.




Sadly, it would be accurate.  One of the reasons I get so hot under the collar over copyright law is because every man woman and child in the United States has done *something* which can be considered against the law.  Instead of having "political crimes" a theoretical tyrannical government could simply selectively enforce the laws on the books to lock up and silence political dissenters.


----------



## Berandor (Jun 8, 2004)

What? How? Huh?

Mac-User here, with DRM, without understanding.


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 8, 2004)

Berandor said:
			
		

> What? How? Huh?
> 
> Mac-User here, with DRM, without understanding.




In a nutshell:

The DMCA makes _possession_ of any technology which can bypass copyright protection schemes (like Adobe DRM) illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in jail. 

Macintosh OSX has an ability to bypass the copyright protection scheme built into the operating system.  

Therefore, ownership of MacOSX is illegal.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 8, 2004)

*Confession....*

I am guilty of PDF "piracy" by downloading from P2P networks.

*sob* I am so ashamed... 

...not.

Frankly, I do download PDFs for free. I also download scanned PDFs of print-only material. If you want to personally attack me, let me know and I will post my email address and we can go over this off-thread. I'll be more than happy to go into a flame-fest with you.

I admit it: I am a thief.

But you know what? (Of course, judging from previous posts, those of you who would actually email me probably won't read this far into my post.) I read the PDFs, and if I like them, I buy the print copies. The ones I don't like, I delete. Why do I buy print copies? Because I hate having to try to find information in a PDF (and I own the full copy of Adobe Acrobat, by the way, legally and unregistered through my own choice), and I cannot afford the ink to print a crappy copy of a 100 - 300+ page PDF. I burn the PDF copies I keep onto CD and take them to work with me, either to print relevant pages or to work on something during lunch (and I pay my company when I print things using their printers). I can't do that with DRM. Why? Because I can't activate Adobe on my work computer.

So, should I absolutely need to buy something on DriveThruRPG, I will buy and crack to remove the problems I have. Not that I am at all likely to purchase anything there (see below).

Why do I pirate PDFs? To judge whether or not I wish to purchase the book in print format. My FLGS doesn't carry many 3rd party books, so I cannot go there and read them to determine if I like them enough to purchase them - and no offense to all you reviews out there, but I like to make my own decisions and not relay on someone else's opinion.

Frankly, I am unhappy at the DRM issue, and am unhappy with DriveThruRPG. I have been to their site, and read their FAQ. It has calmed my major worries about portability; however, it has raised many more. How secure is their site? Why am I not seeing a Verisign (or other internet security) logo? Or a privacy statement? What will they do with my credit card should I purchase anything? How protected are they from hackers?

Frankly, I will continue to download pirated copies of PDFs, and purchase those rare few that I do purchase in PDF format from RPGnow, a company I would much rather give my money to for many reasons, one of which being security issues and their tie with ENworld (or at least that being where ENpublishing products are sold).

I have another revelation for you: I've *gasp* photocopied pages from my print books for my friends. I don't deny it. Email me and I will send you my address so you can call the copyright cops.

Face it: 90% of us has broken copyright laws at one time or another. We're all thieves.


----------



## Berandor (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> In a nutshell:
> 
> The DMCA makes _possession_ of any technology which can bypass copyright protection schemes (like Adobe DRM) illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in jail.
> 
> ...



 Ooohhh! I sooo hope they sue Apple! That'll be fun!


----------



## tm80401 (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> Sadly, it would be accurate.  One of the reasons I get so hot under the collar over copyright law is because every man woman and child in the United States has done *something* which can be considered against the law.  Instead of having "political crimes" a theoretical tyrannical government could simply selectively enforce the laws on the books to lock up and silence political dissenters.





You mean like the justice department and Greenpeace a few months ago?


----------



## Thauredhel (Jun 8, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> I'm not going to punish Monte by not purchacing print products for his Line of Sight article.




Neither will I, but I still won't touch DriveByRPG with an Iconic 10' pole.

I hope they keep on publish real books, though. The physical kind you can keep forever, lend to friends and resell if you tire of them.


----------



## Grazzt (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> In a nutshell:
> 
> The DMCA makes _possession_ of any technology which can bypass copyright protection schemes (like Adobe DRM) illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in jail.
> 
> ...




C'mon now, let's not stretch for stuff.


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 8, 2004)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> C'mon now, let's not stretch for stuff.




He isn't.

That's the problem.

That's why so many people hate the DMCA in all it's forms, and all the hellspawn created and/or empowered by it, such as this crap.

Anyone else remember the "hold down the shift key" bit?


----------



## Kesh (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> In a nutshell:
> 
> The DMCA makes _possession_ of any technology which can bypass copyright protection schemes (like Adobe DRM) illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in jail.
> 
> ...



 You're going to have to explain that statement, Funksaw. Because if you're referring to MacOS X's "Print to PDF" function, you don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't work with DRMed PDFs.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 8, 2004)

Kesh said:
			
		

> You're going to have to explain that statement, Funksaw. Because if you're referring to MacOS X's "Print to PDF" function, you don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't work with DRMed PDFs.




There is more than one way for OSX to print to pdf.


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 8, 2004)

Kesh said:
			
		

> You're going to have to explain that statement, Funksaw. Because if you're referring to MacOS X's "Print to PDF" function, you don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't work with DRMed PDFs.




I'd explain further, but this is a public forum.  You're right, "Save to PDF" doesn't work.  But there is something in the menu options for printing that allows you to circumvent the DRM... Take another two minutes to look.  Shouldn't take you long, it's not like it's exactly hard to find or anything.


----------



## Cergorach (Jun 8, 2004)

Kesh said:
			
		

> You're going to have to explain that statement, Funksaw. Because if you're referring to MacOS X's "Print to PDF" function, you don't know what you're talking about. It doesn't work with DRMed PDFs.



Unless you use a print-to-pdf module that disregards the security text that's printed with the file...


----------



## hexgrid (Jun 8, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> I'd explain further, but this is a public forum.  You're right, "Save to PDF" doesn't work.  But there is something in the menu options for printing that allows you to circumvent the DRM... Take another two minutes to look.  Shouldn't take you long, it's not like it's exactly hard to find or anything.




I tried this, but found the results to be less than desirable. 

(the new file is almost 10 times the size of the original, the text is pixelated, and bookmarks are gone.)


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 8, 2004)

hexgrid said:
			
		

> I tried this, but found the results to be less than desirable.
> 
> (the new file is almost 10 times the size of the original, the text is pixelated, and bookmarks are gone.)




I got the same result, though my file size was only about 5x the size of the original. Not very worth it. But I still don't mind the DRM, so it doesn't matter much to me. Not like I live or die by RPG PDFs.


----------



## isidorus (Jun 9, 2004)

Sigh, if I have to crack it to use on Linux or one of the Bsd's what is the use. Anyway Drm takes fair use rights away and gives them a way to sue you through the DMCA.


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 9, 2004)

deleted: true, but impossible to prove.


----------



## travathian (Jun 9, 2004)

Here's a link to an article about video game piracy by the CEO of a gaming company. None of their games use DRM or copy-protection. They actually came up with an innovative way of NOT screwing over their customers, while at the same time attempting to reduce piracy.

Make being your customer more convenient than being a pirate 

If Monte Cook is by some strange reason reading this thread, then read that article and think about what you are doing to your customers, not the pirates.


----------



## Kesh (Jun 9, 2004)

Yeesh. I finally found it, by trying every combination of options I could. For the record, changing the Output Options allows one to Print to PDF as normal.

Of course, this is useless for those who want to bypass the DRM for the purposes of Copy & Paste. The resulting PDF is just an image file, and much lower quality. So, this is only going to matter if there's MacOS X users who buy a copy of the PDF, print to file to remove the DRM and then share it on a P2P network. Whee.

Still a security issue, though. I thought maybe the update to Acrobat Reader that Adobe put out yesterday would change that, but it's still there.


----------



## Thauredhel (Jun 9, 2004)

travathian said:
			
		

> Here's a link to an article about video game piracy by the CEO of a gaming company. None of their games use DRM or copy-protection. They actually came up with an innovative way of NOT screwing over their customers, while at the same time attempting to reduce piracy.
> 
> Make being your customer more convenient than being a pirate
> 
> If Monte Cook is by some strange reason reading this thread, then read that article and think about what you are doing to your customers, not the pirates.




I don't think this is Montes baby.

That said, I'll qualify my statement of not buying anything from DriveByRPG. I'll buy 'Cult of Personality' for Aberrant if they ever publish it. I would buy 'Cult of Personality' in any readable format, even as photocopies from an ex-playtester    (Yes, this is an offer!) But that will be the only one, and I would still prefer to buy it as a physical book.


----------



## RCanning (Jun 9, 2004)

As I posted Here I signed up and tried to get one of their free downloads.

It downloaded and I could use it on my Powerbook fine, but when I tried to put it on any other computer (like my wife's at work for printing) it completely failed, even though it was logged into my Adobe ID.

Asked both DriveThru and Adobe about it. DriveThru still have not responded (but to be fair it has only been a few hours and it is night time there), Adobe responded telling me that DRM protected material is NOT supposed to be able to work on ANY other machine, even for printing. One computer only and that is it. Details in the post linked to above.


----------



## jaults (Jun 9, 2004)

> Make being your customer more convenient than being a pirate



Wow, what a great article. Hope someone's paying attention.

Jason


----------



## Buttercup (Jun 9, 2004)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> Personally, I have never once used KaZaa etc. This move is akin to forcing people to register when you buy a book. They get to "legally" track how you use their product, force you to use it in a way that they choose, and make you like it.
> 
> The only thing that makes the PDF market worthwhile is low prices and ease of use. When I have to register Adobe etc on EVERY computer I own just to port a PDF file, then it becomes useless to use.
> 
> This is a really crappy thing to do to loyal customers.



This pretty much sums up my position too.  I have never used any peer-to-peer downloading, and in fact, I've always spoken out against it here at EN World, elsewhere on the 'net and IRL.  However, I *will not* get a Microsoft passport.  I *will not* give Adobe access to my personal information.  Ever.  I see this as a threat to my electronic privacy.  Right now there is an easy solution--just do without products sold at DTRPG.  

If I walk into a store and pay cash for a book, my privacy is secure.  If I use a credit or debit card for my purchase, I've given up a slice of privacy, but I can still use the book where and when I want.  As far as I know, White Wolf doesn't have cameras in my house.  And since I'm very careful with my computer security, working behind multiple firewalls, using AdAware and Spybot regularly, and keeping my Norton subscriptions up to date, I feel reasonably certain that I can print documents in private.  Unless I buy into DRM, of course, but as I said, that ain't gonna happen.

I love Fiery Dragon products. Necromancer products too.  I hope they continue to issue them in print, because otherwise I'll never be buying another one.  That would be a big disappointment to me, but I won't compromise my privacy.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 9, 2004)

*Keep Yer Politics To Yerself*



			
				Estlor said:
			
		

> It's the same case as gun control.  Preventing law-abiding individuals from legally obtaining and owning a firearm doesn't decrease gun violence, as individuals who will use their firearm in an unlawful manner would not purchase it through lawful avenues.




  Please keep your politics to yourself.  This claim is weak, but to address would break the rules that you shouldn't have broken.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Jun 9, 2004)

Necromancer Games rocks.  I love their products, but I'll not buy a product print or otherwise from anyone pushing that DRM crap on me.  Sometimes you have to take a stand.


----------



## undeaddan (Jun 9, 2004)

"That's why we put out a brand new free (short) pdf on that site called Narrog the Earth Serpent so you could give the new vendor a try for free."

This would be the free .pdf that I can't get to open on my desktop because it keeps telling me to go to DTRPG's site to get permission

"No, it's not the case that you can't transfer the between two machines. I know that some people are telling you can't transfer the file from your desktop to your laptop (or whatever), but, to be blunt, they're wrong. You can. You can also make backup copies and print just as easily as you could before. There are limitations in the cut and paste feature, but we're thinking about asking them to relax those a bit as well."

See above.  If this is what it takes to get a free product. I'm not real inclined to pay for anything from DTRPG.  

Maybe I'll check some of the file sharing services to see if a cracked copy can be found there.  Never considered that before today.


----------



## rpghost (Jun 9, 2004)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> my main problem with these online pdf-buying services: They always want my credit card number. But I don´t have one. And I don`t plan on getting one.




RPGnow.com and RPGShop.com both accept money orders. Walk on down to your post office or gas station or sentry store and give them less then $1 and they'll convert your cash to something you can send us. Sure it'll take a couple days longer - but you'll get your order! See the checkout pages for details.

James


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 9, 2004)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Necromancer Games rocks.  I love their products, but I'll not buy a product print or otherwise from anyone pushing that DRM crap on me.  Sometimes you have to take a stand.




Ironicly, I think several people have said:Remove the DRM protection and I'll buy a lot of stuff. With it, you don't get one cent.

I'm in the same boat. But, in the meantime, the small guys can use my money. And some not so small guys, I just picked up the HARP book .pdf from ICE, and I'm really enjoying what I'm seeing.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Please keep your politics to yourself.  This claim is weak, but to address would break the rules that you shouldn't have broken.



Even though his claim is backed by vast amounts of data, you are correct.  We should avoid these type comments.


----------



## undeaddan (Jun 9, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Please keep your politics to yourself.  This claim is weak, but to address would break the rules that you shouldn't have broken.




I'm not sure how the only remotely valid analogy I've heard on this subject is political. 

If you outlaw .pdfs, only outlaws will have .pdfs.


----------



## undeaddan (Jun 9, 2004)

wedgeski said:
			
		

> I suggest everyone stops whining about it.




And I suggest that you tell me how to get this damn file open on my home computer (I downloaded it at work).  As soon as I am sitting in front of my iMac reading about a wingless dragon I'll stop whining.


----------



## undeaddan (Jun 9, 2004)

Sylevus said:
			
		

> I am really curious about this comment.   On one hand you say you have to have the portability of the pdf, i.e. the main tool that allows the thief to freely and widely disseminate someone else's labor, and on the other you do not want to be treated like a thief.




Believe it or not portability doesn't equal theft. If it did then ripping a CD I owned to my iPod and walking out the front door of my house would be theft.


----------



## Sir Elton (Jun 9, 2004)

undeaddan said:
			
		

> I'm not sure how the only remotely valid analogy I've heard on this subject is political. But hey, feel free to disregard opinions that don't support your world view. Or you can go over to Monte's site and talk about how a .pdf = a car with Sean K. Reynolds.
> 
> If you outlaw .pdfs, only outlaws will have .pdfs.



 I don't like Copy Protection, but there seems to be another solution. I totally agree that Copy Protection causes piracy. By getting rid of it, we can get rid of the Copy Protection. Some people hate Copyright in the first place.

 I studied it, and it's become a hassle. Copyright Law has to be redefined in the Era of the Internet, tho. Its too easy for people to violate. So therefore, U.S. Copyright Law needs to be redefined. Vigorous Copy Protection only breeds violation. Without Copy Protection, violation can be lessened. What we need to do is create a loyal *customer* base. we need to treat our customers as _Customers_ and not as potential pirates.
  We writers and publishers need to find an alternative method to create loyal customers, and Copy Protection won't work.

  Most of those who pirate will buy the print edition anyway (I buy print editions _exclusively_). So, most of those who do pirate do respect the Art and Entertainment we are creating for them. Others plainly do not respect what we have created for them. Using DRM will cause an ulcer to become a cancer. Lets heal the rift and find ways of providing a way for our _customers_ to be happy with us and to protect our copyrights.

  And I am an RPG writer.


----------



## Sir Whiskers (Jun 9, 2004)

undeaddan said:
			
		

> It's nice to know that the president of the RIAA reads the boards.
> 
> Believe it or not portability doesn't equal theft. If it did then ripping a CD I owned to my iPod and walking out the front door of my house would be theft.
> 
> Go back to pimping Britney Spears Mr. Record executive, your flawed logic isn't necessary here.




Undeaddan, you're a community supporter, so I have to assume you know the rules of the forum. No personal attacks. Period. If you disagree with someone's position, you're free to post a rebuttal - _to their position_. Attacking the poster isn't called for.


----------



## d20Dwarf (Jun 9, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Please keep your politics to yourself. This claim is weak, but to address would break the rules that you shouldn't have broken.



He's not being political, he's being correct. But I do understand that some people only like political when it comes with correctness.


----------



## ukgpublishing (Jun 9, 2004)

*We will be sticking with RPGNow.com*

As a publisher on RPGNow.com, UKG Publishing has no choice but to stick with RPGNow.

All of our products use a combination of HTML interfaces and PDF documents so the move to DRM at DriveThruRPG.com means that I cannot even consider it.

As it happens I wouldn't move, as the services I have recieved from RPGNow has been sterling.

As for copy protection, why bother. Anyone who publishes any work be it software, interlectual or printed media has to expect some copying, and we jus hope that someone with a copy of our work will like it enough to either buy it or other products we sell.

John Milner
*UKG Publishing*
http://www.ukg-publishing.co.uk/


----------



## undeaddan (Jun 9, 2004)

*Mea Culpa*



			
				Sir Whiskers said:
			
		

> Undeaddan, you're a community supporter, so I have to assume you know the rules of the forum. No personal attacks. Period. If you disagree with someone's position, you're free to post a rebuttal - _to their position_. Attacking the poster isn't called for.




You are totally and completely right.  I will now remove the offending attacks.  

I apologise to the poster and everyone else for any offense taken.  

The only explanation I can offer is that it was late, I was tired and I had spent the whole night fighting with adobe DRM trying to open my "free" product.

Still that doesn't excuse my utter lack of protocol


----------



## Sir Whiskers (Jun 9, 2004)

undeaddan said:
			
		

> You are totally and completely right.  I will now remove the offending attacks.
> 
> I apologise to the poster and everyone else for any offense taken.
> 
> ...




Many thanks. There's a lot of passion (which I share) on this subject.


----------



## Prime_Evil (Jun 9, 2004)

Joshua Randall said:
			
		

> [/font]
> 
> Listen up, all you smug software pirates: you have driven Malhavoc into using Digital Rights Management to protect their assets. Next time you are blithely stealing someone's intellectual property, reasoning that 'no one gets hurt', think about everyone on this thread who will be inconvenienced by the shift to DRM.
> 
> But you Internet thieves never bother to think about anything other than yourselves, do you?




Gotta love trollbait.....


----------



## Prime_Evil (Jun 9, 2004)

I find it interesting that White Wolf is the parent company behind the implementation of DRM at DriveThruRPG. 

Recently, I have started to realize that White Wolf has an ambivalent attitude towards other people's intellectual property rights. 

White Wolf is quite happy to produce d20 material in-house under its Sword & Sorcery imprint (thus benefiting financially from the immense generosity of WoTC) but uses various means to cripple the re-use of the OGL material within these books, effectively undermining the spirit of the d20 license. 

Take the recent *Relics & Rituals: Excalibur* book as an example. This volume clearly displays the d20 logo on the back cover and the fine print on the bottom of the title page indicates that it is published under the d20 system license, yet it does not contain the text of the d20 license in the legal appendix at the back of the book. This places it in direct breach of the terms of the d20 license (which is a legally binding contract). 

Furthermore, placing the d20 logo on the back cover that does not meet the terms of the d20 system license clearly infringes upon a trademark owned by WoTC. 

The legal appendix does contain the complete text of the Open Game License, but this alone does not meet the legal requirements for a legitimate d20 publication. If you don't believe me, go and read the terms of the license over at the WoTC website.

The Designation of Open Game Content in the legal appendix of this book indicates that the entirety of the text contained within the volume is open game content, with the exception of a couple of names and descriptions. (Never mind that some of these terms -- such as daoine sidhe -- may already be in the public domain by virtue of their appearance in the mythology of the British Isles) 

The Designation of Product Identity is then used to 'cripple' the OGC, stating that the following items are not OGC, but rather Product Identity as defined in Section 1(e) of the OGL:

"any specific characters, monsters, creatures and places; original names of places, artifacts, characters, races, countries, creatures, geographic locations, gods, historic events, magic items, organizations, spells, feats, and abilities; any and all stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, and dialogue; all artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, illustrations, maps and cartography, likenesses, poses, symbols or graphic elements".

It is an interesting mental exercise to sit down and work out what is actually left as OGC once you have removed *everything* in the book that is covered by this statement. 

I believe that this volume clearly fails the requirement to *clearly* indicate which portions of the text are OGC and which are Product Identity. I get the feeling that the publisher is using deliberate obfuscation to ensure that it is impossible to extract *ANY* useable OGC from the book. 

Just in case anybody missed the point, the legal appendix also points out that:

"All contents of this book, regardless of designation, are copyrighted in the year 2004 by White Wolf Publishing, Inc. All rights reserved. Reproduction or use without the written permission of the publisher is expressly forbidden, except for the purpose of review or use of OGC consistent with the OGL"  

I feel that this kind of 'crippleware' defeats the spirit of the d20 license. 

I have always thought that one of the neatest things about the license was the requirement that companies that profit from the license commercially must give something back to the gaming community. 

Just a thought....


----------



## Buttercup (Jun 9, 2004)

Ghostwind said:
			
		

> Umm, Bastion has been offering pdfs on RPGNow for quite some time.



I know it.  And Steve, my friend, please please *please* do not switch over to DTRPG and DRM "protected" products.  Because if Bastion does, they'll lose my PDF business.  And I'd hate that.


----------



## Yair (Jun 9, 2004)

Prime_Evil said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that White Wolf is the parent company behind the implementation of DRM at DriveThruRPG.
> [snip]



This tactic is also shared by Malhavoc Press. In the Book of Eldrtich Might (I), for example, the OGC declaration reads something like (serf's parma):
"... all material wholly derived from the d20 SRD is OGC."
Again, it is unclear (thus breaching the OGL), possibly impossible legally (the OGL states any material derived from OGC must be OGC, not just material *wholly* derived from OGC), and makes it practically impossible to determine what is OGC. Are spell names OGC? Surely they are not "wholly derived from the SRD"...
If I had lots of money, I would convince Hasbaro to pursue litigation for not being clear. That irks me the most.  

I find it telling that this strategy is shared by (IMHO) the two greatest supporters of the move to DRM.


----------



## Psion (Jun 9, 2004)

Prime_Evil said:
			
		

> Take the recent *Relics & Rituals: Excalibur* book as an example. This volume clearly displays the d20 logo on the back cover and the fine print on the bottom of the title page indicates that it is published under the d20 system license, yet it does not contain the text of the d20 license in the legal appendix at the back of the book.[/b]




Including a copy of the d20 STL has not been a requirement since the earliest versions. I am astonished at companies who still do include it.

The OGL is required.



> The Designation of Open Game Content in the legal appendix of this book indicates that the entirety of the text contained within the volume is open game content, with the exception of a couple of names and descriptions. (Never mind that some of these terms -- such as daoine sidhe -- may already be in the public domain by virtue of their appearance in the mythology of the British Isles)
> 
> The Designation of Product Identity is then used to 'cripple' the OGC, stating that the following items are not OGC, but rather Product Identity as defined in Section 1(e) of the OGL:
> 
> "any specific characters, monsters, creatures and places; *original* names of places, artifacts, characters, races, countries, creatures, geographic locations, gods, historic events, magic items, organizations, spells, feats, and abilities; any and all stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, and dialogue; all artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, illustrations, maps and cartography, likenesses, poses, symbols or graphic elements".




Additional emphasis mine.

Crippleware OGC is not nice, but unfortunately, it is legal.


----------



## Henry (Jun 9, 2004)

I am not a lawyer, but I had a couple of comments on your comments:



			
				Prime_Evil said:
			
		

> The legal appendix does contain the complete text of the Open Game License, but this alone does not meet the legal requirements for a legitimate d20 publication. If you don't believe me, go and read the terms of the license over at the WoTC website.




Actually, to my knowledge inserting the d20 STL license is not part of the requirement; only the trademark, the "This product requires" boilerplate in no larger than 12 point font, staying away from the prohibited subjects, and abiding by the quality standards. Only the OGL makes a requirement of the license, and the product must be OGL if it's part of the d20 STL anyway.



> The Designation of Product Identity is then used to 'cripple' the OGC, stating that the following items are not OGC, but rather Product Identity as defined in Section 1(e) of the OGL:
> 
> "any specific characters, monsters, creatures and places; original names of places, artifacts, characters, races, countries, creatures, geographic locations, gods, historic events, magic items, organizations, spells, feats, and abilities; any and all stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, and dialogue; all artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, illustrations, maps and cartography, likenesses, poses, symbols or graphic elements".
> 
> It is an interesting mental exercise to sit down and work out what is actually left as OGC once you have removed *everything* in the book that is covered by this statement.




Not to dissuade you, but it does seem reasonably clear to me: basically, anything that is not a mechanic is protected property. With that statement, they released the MECHANICS to their feats, spells, etc. But not the names to such. According to that text, if it's a mechanic, it's open; if it's not a mechanic, it's not.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 9, 2004)

I found something interesting in the welcome letter from my account at DriveThruRPG: 



			
				DriveThruRPG said:
			
		

> *Note:* This email address was given to us by one of our customers. If you did not signup to be a member, please send an email to DTRPGCustomerService@DriveThruRPG.com so that we can remove the account.



Umm... Does this mean that they are collecting email addresses and automatically creating accounts for people?...


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

Wow, so much vitriol it is hard to know what to say. Apparently any publisher that is associated with DTRPG is evil, and, equally apparent, anyone associated with such a publisher is also evil (though in some cases only slightly evil, or just stupid). Here are a few thoughts from an apparently evil person. Keep in mind, I don’t necessarily agree with everything below, but I know this is how some people view things.

Why are they using DRM, it is so easy to crack by pirates anyway?
Many print publishers feel that they have to show they are making an effort to defend their copyrighted material. If an ordinary .pdf ends up on Kazaa or some other P2P network, the originator can say, “Damn, really sorry man, I just was sharing some files with people at work (friends, or whatever) and I didn’t realize I marked that folder as “public.” No publisher wants to look like the big ugly, mean, nasty when they send a letter to an internet provider/host trying to shut someone down, or when threatening to sue (something I doubt most publishers would ever bother with). A .pdf or other electronic file that has some sort of protection is a bit different. Someone has to deliberately crack it before freely giving it away. This shows intent. It is hard to make someone believe that you have enough computer knowledge to crack a file, yet open a file to a P2P network by “mistake.” The publisher is going to feel a lot more justified in sending threatening letters to ISPs and individuals in such a case. They also have a stronger case in court, if anything were ever to go to court, because they can say they took deliberate steps to safeguard their material.

As for why DRM was chosen, I honestly don’t know. I am pretty certain if they didn’t choose some manner of protection a majority of the books you see up on their site would not be there. Frankly, I don’t think there are any “good” systems out for protection of electronic files (not true, there are, but not for something you are selling/distributing). I could be wrong, but I don’t think any publisher has illusions about whether or not DRM can be “cracked” but they do want to show that they are making an effort to protect their material.

Why did all these publishers go with DTRPG?
Obviously, I can’t answer for other people and don’t know the exact reasons some people might have chosen DTRPG. I do know that Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games has clearly given his reasons for our company going with them. DTRPG provided services that we didn’t get anywhere else. They took pre-print layout files and turned them into downloadable pdfs. This is not something that is trivial, we looked into this when Tomb of Abysthor went out of print because fans were begging for an electronic release. We don’t have the manpower to devote to creating the pdf, checking it, and then taking care of distribution. The people involved with DTRPG are well-liked and trusted by other people in the RPG industry, if not on these message boards.

Forcing DRM down people’s throats?!
Hey, we aren’t. If you don’t want it, don’t buy it. We can’t please everyone all of the time. Will adjustments be made? Considering the company and releases are not even a week old yet, I am sure that you’ll see price adjustments as well as other adjustments. Bill Webb at Necromancer Games has had emails from people in countries like Saudi Arabia (where it is REALLY difficult to get gaming material) as well as a few other places where import costs and availability were onerous. Necro views the electronic releases as a way to reach some customers we couldn’t reach before. From our view, we are allowing more customers access to our products now, even though some people are complaining about it. We aren’t taking anything away from you, in fact we have added to product availability, if you don’t want it, don’t buy it. 

Remember, this message board has a sub-group of the internet using gamers that happens to be very computer literate and devoted to electronic products and tools. The majority of people that the DTRPG releases are aimed at aren’t going to be inconvenienced by DRM. Are some, yes. Will we lose that sale? Yes, probably. But, then again, we never had a chance at that sale before anyway because we aren’t a .pdf publisher and, until a few days ago, didn’t have any electronic releases (barring free downloads of course). Personally, I think it is harder to copy/paste and print on different computers with our print products than it is with a DRM electronic file but maybe I am wrong.

While I don’t personally like DRM, I don’t think you are going to see it go away. If you want to see .pdfs for print products that are made directly from the layouts sent to the printer, you are going to have to deal with copy protection of some type. Right now, that appears to be DRM. 

PS. While I have used comments from people at Necromancer Games for some of the information above, this post should not be considered as coming from Necromancer Games. Information from Bill Webb and Clark Peterson used above is available on other public message boards, including the Necromancer Games forums.


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## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Not to dissuade you, but it does seem reasonably clear to me: basically, anything that is not a mechanic is protected property. With that statement, they released the MECHANICS to their feats, spells, etc. But not the names to such. According to that text, if it's a mechanic, it's open; if it's not a mechanic, it's not.




That is certainly how I (also IANAL) see it.

You know, a really good way to grow the industry would be to start making more stuff available for free.  Just start copying all of the open mechanics, doing the section 15 right, and posting it for free.  A lot of people who either can't or won't spend the money would then gain access to this material and the fan base would grow.  And growing the fan base is the big picture.


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## Tsyr (Jun 9, 2004)

See, Patrick, I have a problem with this whole "They are just showing that they are at least trying to protect their product, even though they know it won't work."

So, in otherwords, the show of effort is to treat us all like potential thieves because you can't actually stop the real ones?


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 9, 2004)

Since they are only supporting Windows users I don't see how I could support them.  I'm using 2000 at home, but since I am not going to pay a couple hundred bucks for Longhorn I'll be going to Red Hat Linux next, It's already on my old gaming laptop.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Why are they using DRM, it is so easy to crack by pirates anyway?
> Many print publishers feel that they have to show they are making an effort to defend their copyrighted material. If an ordinary .pdf ends up on Kazaa or some other P2P network, the originator can say, “Damn, really sorry man, I just was sharing some files with people at work (friends, or whatever) and I didn’t realize I marked that folder as “public.” No publisher wants to look like the big ugly, mean, nasty when they send a letter to an internet provider/host trying to shut someone down, or when threatening to sue (something I doubt most publishers would ever bother with). A .pdf or other electronic file that has some sort of protection is a bit different. Someone has to deliberately crack it before freely giving it away. This shows intent. It is hard to make someone believe that you have enough computer knowledge to crack a file, yet open a file to a P2P network by “mistake.” The publisher is going to feel a lot more justified in sending threatening letters to ISPs and individuals in such a case. They also have a stronger case in court, if anything were ever to go to court, because they can say they took deliberate steps to safeguard their material.



Hmm... I didn't realize that the PDFs now track what computers they are on. 

Really, I am quite interested in this: who do you sue/shut down? The person who downloaded the cracked version of the PDF, the person who cracked it, or both? And how do you determine who those people are?

Seriously, I would like to know.


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## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Forcing DRM down people’s throats?!
> Hey, we aren’t. If you don’t want it, don’t buy it. We can’t please everyone all of the time. Will adjustments be made? Considering the company and releases are not even a week old yet, I am sure that you’ll see price adjustments as well as other adjustments. Bill Webb at Necromancer Games has had emails from people in countries like Saudi Arabia (where it is REALLY difficult to get gaming material) as well as a few other places where import costs and availability were onerous. Necro views the electronic releases as a way to reach some customers we couldn’t reach before. From our view, we are allowing more customers access to our products now, even though some people are complaining about it. We aren’t taking anything away from you, in
> fact we have added to product availability, if you don’t want it, don’t buy it.




Not clear on how you get from DRM to foreign countries.  Non-DRM products can reach foreign countries.  And DRM isn't particularly meaningful, in places where US copyright does not apply.



> Remember, this message board has a sub-group of the internet using gamers that happens to be very computer literate and devoted to electronic products and tools. The majority of people that the DTRPG releases are aimed at aren’t going to be inconvenienced by DRM. Are some, yes. Will we lose that sale? Yes, probably. But, then again, we never had a chance at that sale before anyway because we aren’t a .pdf publisher and, until a few days ago, didn’t have any electronic releases (barring free downloads of course). Personally, I think it is harder to copy/paste and print on different computers with our print products than it is with a DRM electronic file but maybe I am wrong.




First, the internet literate types greatly disproportionately represent the pdf consumer base.

You are giving up 5 birds in the hand for one in the bush.

Second, I think you greatly underestimate who will be inconvenieced.  People not familair with DRM will buy at first.  And as soon as they have trouble moving it, or backing it up, or whatever, they will stop buying.  



> While I don’t personally like DRM, I don’t think you are going to see it go away.




I've heard statements like this before.



EDIT: Removed a comment because someone else's reply was much better than mine.


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## Psion (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Wow, so much vitriol it is hard to know what to say. Apparently any publisher that is associated with DTRPG is evil, and, equally apparent, anyone associated with such a publisher is also evil (though in some cases only slightly evil, or just stupid).




Uh, no.

Very few people have passed moral judgement on you, and those people should not be taken as representative.

What is widespread is the beleif that the format you have chosen to distribute your products in causes unnaceptable inconvenience and to some, begs an IP slippery slope they find repugnant. Others beleive the price is out of line.

But I am not seeing this thread as vitriol, and find such claims as attempts to position yourself as a victim. Your company chose the route they are going. They didn't get forced into it.



> If you don’t want it, don’t buy it. We can’t please everyone all of the time. Will adjustments be made? Considering the company and releases are not even a week old yet, I am sure that you’ll see price adjustments as well as other adjustments. Bill Webb at Necromancer Games has had emails from people in countries like Saudi Arabia (where it is REALLY difficult to get gaming material) as well as a few other places where import costs and availability were onerous. Necro views the electronic releases as a way to reach some customers we couldn’t reach before. From our view, we are allowing more customers access to our products now, even though some people are complaining about it. We aren’t taking anything away from you, in fact we have added to product availability, if you don’t want it, don’t buy it.




That's fine. You are 100% correct. The previously print only publishers are not taking away anything.

Just be aware that your current pricing will not appeal to what many typical PDF buyers shop for. Many of us seek commonly used apps in electronic format in addition to printed format because it allows additional utility in terms of copy and pasting to game notes, printing out individual pages, and less weight if you need to go to a game elsewhere and don't want to take a hand truck with you to cart your crates of books. Priced at 50% or less of print MSRP, that's what many established PDF buyers do.

If you are only marketing to those who can't get the print books and really want them, your pricing will meet that need but little more. If you do that consciously, I don't see that anyone can begrudge you that.



> While I don’t personally like DRM, I don’t think you are going to see it go away. If you want to see .pdfs for print products that are made directly from the layouts sent to the printer, you are going to have to deal with copy protection of some type. Right now, that appears to be DRM.




Ah, but that's two different things. Some form of copy protection, perhaps. But DRM is not, IMO, currently a customer friendly solution. It's riddled with problems. I predict (<--- mark words) that if it is not improved significantly, it will be replaced by a protection that won't piss off customers.

Even then, I am not so certain. Someone else linked to an article by a software company that deliberately does not include intrusive software protection. I think that if publishers are really concerned about making things work in an electronic world, they should pay heed to those who have already been down that route.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Forcing DRM down people?s throats?!
> Hey, we aren?t. If you don?t want it, don?t buy it.




You know you realy shouldn't temp people like that. The last time I remember seeing coments like that was the Dungeon/Poly incident. Dungeon readers complained bitterly and loudly and were told if we don't like it don't buy it. Guess what we didn't buy it and a year latter it is anounced that due to falling subscriber numbers thay are going back to what the customers said they wanted.

Sure for White Wolf and Necromancer any sales are more than the no sales you had before, but for people like Malhavoc who did fine before there will almost certainly be a sales hit from this. 



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> While I don?t personally like DRM, I don?t think you are going to see it go away.




All I can say is see DIVIX.


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## d20Dwarf (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Wow, so much vitriol it is hard to know what to say. Apparently any publisher that is associated with DTRPG is evil, and, equally apparent, anyone associated with such a publisher is also evil (though in some cases only slightly evil, or just stupid). Here are a few thoughts from an apparently evil person.



If DTRPG's boosters would stop classifying all opposition as vitriol, they might start seeing the 90% of messages that contain valid complaints. They might see that Adobe customer service directly contradicts what they say can be done with DRM files. Is that vitriol?



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> They took pre-print layout files and turned them into downloadable pdfs. This is not something that is trivial



It's pretty trivial to make pdfs, all you need is Adobe Acrobat and maybe 10 minutes of training.

Seriously, though, aren't the differences between DTRPG's claims and Adobe's claims significant to you as a publisher? Who's right? Do you even know what's being done to your files, or in what form they are being distributed?


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> _<snip>_ Someone else linked to an article by a software company that deliberately does include intrusive software protection. I think that if publishers are really concerned about making things work in an electronic world, they should pay heed to those who have already been down that route.



I snagged it and placed the link in my sig, just in case any of those publishers out there wish to read it. I think they should. I purchase from companies I respect, even if I _do _happen to have a pirated copy of their work - I would purchase from that one. 

And for the record, you don't need to give away all your products to earn respect - you are in the business to make money, we understand that. (Or at least the more mature ones of us do, and we're the ones spending the money.) What we _do _expect is that a company respect us, the customers. The current DRM, with its host of problems, is not respect. Copy-protection, fine. I'm all for that. But find a customer-friendly way to do it. I had to download the Exalted book three times last night before I could get Adobe and DriveThruRPG to recognize that I did have Adobe 6, and that I did have rights to view the PDF. Considering that was one of the free books on the site, I hate to think what might happen should I purchase one.


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## PetriWessman (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Wow, so much vitriol it is hard to know what to say. Apparently any publisher that is associated with DTRPG is evil, and, equally apparent, anyone associated with such a publisher is also evil (though in some cases only slightly evil, or just stupid). Here are a few thoughts from an apparently evil person.




Everyone defending DTRPG seems intent to paint the flood of complaints here are baseless vitriol, whining and noise, and also painting themselves as innocent victims. Get off that horse while it's still standing, please.

Practically nobody is is saying DTRPG is evil as such. What they (and I) *are* saying is that the current form of DRM used is stupid, counterproductive and ethically questionable. Why? Everyone has their own reasons, but the most common complaints are:

* The DRM exists purely to add an illusion of security to the sellers, it has absolutely no good sides (and plenty) bad to the actual byers. In addition, there is no indication that it hinders real piracy in any form and plenty that it does not (I personally suspect it actually increases piracy).

* The DRM plain does not work for a lot of people (due to OS or whatever)

* There is no guarantee that the DRM'ed file will still be usable in, say 5 years time (companies fold, computers get upgraded, etc etc).

* Many common use cases (print shop use, non-conneced gaming computers, etc) become hard, expensive or impossible.

* You are locked to viewing the document with one specific program, not the N+1 possible viewers that normal PDFs can be used with.

* Many believe that once you've bought something, the company has no right to track your usage of it or retroactively change the terms of use. With the DTRPG model, you're no actually bying the product, you're kinda-sorta leasing it - while paying full price. People want to own stuff, not lease it.

These are all valid reasons. While you may not agree with them, they are very real to a large group of people and stop them from doing business from DTRPG. Labeling these (potential) customer complaints are noise and whining is deeply stupid, since this group of people is also the group that is most likely to buy the product, were the terms different.

Note that even though the prices are very very high in many cases, the complaints against that form a smaller group. A high price is a *secondary* factor to a lot of people. I'm not in marketing (soul still intact, thankyouverymuch), but I'd imagine the fact that something besides price is a huge buy-or-not factor to be important.

In short, people aren't saying DTRPG is evil. People are saying the business model is stupid, short-sighted, probably based on little-to-none market research, and will probably/hopefully fail. But not evil as such.

...though I must wonder what the business model actually is, since some of the parties involved have stated that their prices are artifically high so they won't compete with the print product (apparently under the illusion that the print product and the PDF somehow the same thing, I guess).

Me? Give me a site to has the catalog that DTRPG has, sells PDFs (or some equivalent standard document type) that I can view with standard tools on my Linux box with no hassle, and put the price point at max 50% of the printed book cost, and that site will gain a regular customer. As is, I'll continue shopping at rpgnow and other sites that give me value for $$$, and drive right on past DTRPG.


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## Conaill (Jun 9, 2004)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> I found something interesting in the welcome letter from my account at DriveThruRPG:
> 
> _Note: This email address was given to us by one of our customers. If you did not signup to be a member, please send an email to DTRPGCustomerService@DriveThruRPG.com so that we can remove the account._
> 
> Umm... Does this mean that they are collecting email addresses and automatically creating accounts for people?...



That's just a standard, boiler-plate email verification message. No need to be paranoid. At least assuming you *did* actually sign up for an account and gave your email address.

It allows the company to verify that you gave a valid email address, and it provides *you* some protection from anyone who might want to sign up with your email address. 

The could have phrased it a little more clearly though, especially if they do want to go for the less computer savvy audience. Typically it says something like "you or someone else openened an account", rather than "one of our customers" (which implies a 3rd person).


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## dsfriii (Jun 9, 2004)

I have been following this issue a bit.  I know it will not impact me because I do not buy PDF, (only because I find it cheaper in the long run to buy printed material, plus I am old fashion).

But all you can do is vote with your money.  If enough people do not buy the product they will change.  But if enough people do maybe there is a market for the the product.  This fitting back and forth will get us no where.


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## The Sigil (Jun 9, 2004)

PetriWessman said:
			
		

> Everyone defending DTRPG seems intent to paint the flood of complaints here are baseless vitriol, whining and noise, and also painting themselves as innocent victims. Get off that horse while it's still standing, please.
> 
> Practically nobody is is saying DTRPG is evil as such. What they (and I) *are* saying is that the current form of DRM used is stupid, counterproductive and ethically questionable. Why? Everyone has their own reasons, but the most common complaints are:



As posted elsewhere, let me add:

*DRM takes away the Right of First Sale from and provides no counter-benefit to the legitimate purchaser.

(And in a rather distasteful way, arguing that it is done for "reasons of copyright protection" when it is copyright law itself that provides the Right of First Sale.  It's similar to invoking the "right to a speedy trial" to justify dragging out court proceedings over several decades.)

--The Sigil


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## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> You know you realy shouldn't temp people like that. The last time I remember seeing coments like that was the Dungeon/Poly incident. Dungeon readers complained bitterly and loudly and were told if we don't like it don't buy it. Guess what we didn't buy it and a year latter it is anounced that due to falling subscriber numbers thay are going back to what the customers said they wanted.




mmm-hmmm.

But there is a very bright side.  The paying customers eventually get what they want to pay for.



> Sure for White Wolf and Necromancer any sales are more than the no sales you had before, but for people like Malhavoc who did fine before there will almost certainly be a sales hit from this.



Valid point.  And I have no negative thought at all toward groups who are starting out trying things this way.  Clark Peterson, for example, is a really honest guy from my experience and I truly believe that growing the hobby base a true top priority for him.  However, companies that move away from non-DRM stuff and then have either the gall or blindness to be critical of people who complain about have their option to buy non-crippled property taken away are rather disappointing.

But also, I think you comment does fall slightly prey to the DRM works illusion.
If DRM Tome of Horrors pdf is out there, it will not be long at all before non-DRM Tome of Horros pdf is out there.  So including DRM or not is largely academic.  If piracy will cut into print sales, then they should avoid PDFs altogether.  If it won't, then there is little value in DRM.



> All I can say is see DIVIX.




Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 9, 2004)

Conaill said:
			
		

> That's just a standard, boiler-plate email verification message. No need to be paranoid. At least assuming you *did* actually sign up for an account and gave your email address.



I did, and expected a letter - but the phrasing worries me. There is always something of that nature - "email us to remove if in error" - but the very fact of DTRPG's non-clarity on this fact, combined with the lack of simple buyer-security issues (such as a privacy policy, and why do they require a phone number, for gawd's sake?) overall conveys a sense of shadyness.

Why do they require an address and telephone number if they are not shipping me anything or even verifying account information? (Easily proved, as I created a bogus account.)

I did email customer service to ask them that very question, BTW.

Now, were I less paranoid (and didn't already have a good deal of customer-loyalty to RPGnow ) I would probably assign all this to lack of experience. However, were *I* to start an internet store, selling _whatever_, I would do some research to at least make an effort to *look* professional before I launched it.

Just my 2 cents.

Remember, just because I'm paranoid does not mean someone _isn't_ actually out to get me.


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## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 9, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> As posted elsewhere, let me add:
> 
> *DRM takes away the Right of First Sale from and provides no counter-benefit to the legitimate purchaser.



A little OT, but DRM is not the first time it's been done. *shrug* Microsoft did it for Windows 98 (and probably all their other programs, but *I* read it in their EULA for Win98).

MS's End User Licence Agreement or EULA for Windows 98 (you know, that part to click "I Agree" on to install and never read?) stated that you owned a licence to use Win98, which could be revoked at any time by Microsoft. After paying over $200 for the program, that didn't make me happy.


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## Vascant (Jun 9, 2004)

I have to say, this has been one of the most entertaining topics I have seen in months.  Point blank, if you do not care for it do not spend your money there.  If you read anything from DriveThruRPG you will learn one valuable thing, you are not the customer, therefore customer service does not exist.  The customer they are concerned with are the publishers, thats it.  Writing countless posts do not good except perhaps make you feel better and add some humor for others.  
  Your best weapon and voice, is your money.  Sure they will get some sales from other countries or people who cannot get the product by normal channels.  Look at the website, this is not a professional venture by any means.  The individuals running it have obviously never even thought about first impressions.  I have been using DRM for work for over 2 years now and I will be the first to say, it is the second most painful experience I can recall.. the first being Windows 2.0.  We know what we are doing and have problems and issues with it so I can only imagine what the general public will experience.  I wonder what DriveThruRPG will do if you purchase a product and find you cannot read it?  They have basically went to bed with Microsoft an trust me, they won't save you.
  As for the myth of DRM being secure, yes it is for those under 12 and do not have a web browser.  The schema was reversed engineered a few months ago.  Given that knowledge and what I said above about who the real customers are what I feel is happened is this.  DriveThruRPG has convinced a few people scared to sell PDF's this is the silver bullet of piracy.  I hope these publishers got that in writing.  We all know Monte is no big fan of book traders but I think there was more to the switch in services then merely that and if it isn't, it goes to show what kind of person he is.

*Grins*
Anyone been around long enough when Gary Gygax basically told everyone how to game.  This kind of reminds me of all that. Anyways, DRiveThruRPG my statement to you is this, I have been around probably alot longer then you and will be around long after you are gone.  Enjoy your stay but please, don't leave a mess


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## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

Actually, if you looked at the rest of my post you would have noticed that I gave some of the reasons that publishers went to a copy protection system for releasing products as pdfs. I personally don't think DRM is a good answer to the problem, at the same time I understand why publishers want to use something. Personally, I don't think those reasons are entirely valid, but print publishers, in general, have a great deal of concern about releasing electronic products. They are afraid of lost print sales, angering distributors and retailers, and piracy. They also seem to want “the other guy” to take the risk first.

I don't recall calling complaints against DRM "whining" or "noise." Some people have real complaints and problems using DRM. I did say that these people probably aren't going to be customers and are quite probably a fraction of the possible audience. While a few of the publishers at DTRPG did have pdf products, most did not. People are complaining about added availabilty of products that don't match their expectations. 

I have never said I was an "innocent victim." I am not part of WW, nor do have anything to do with DTRPG. I am affiliated with a company that publishes through SSS/WW and now has releases through DTRPG.

My post also mentioned that this company is a week old (less I believe), the constant complaints might indeed change the way the company does things, copy/paste restrictions on at least some products have already been eased. I am sure that anyone emailing Steve with a new copy protection system (of any type) that is easy to implement and doesn't inconvenience customers will be listened to. 

If people want real change, politely worded posts work best, polite emails are even better. Between this thread, other threads here, and on some other boards, I have seen a lot of blatant attacks. It looks like several posts I saw earlier have been edited and that the anger seems to be more tempered.

At the same time, I didn’t realize I was on a horse, perhaps if I was I would have a different perspective.



			
				PetriWessman said:
			
		

> Everyone defending DTRPG seems intent to paint the flood of complaints here are baseless vitriol, whining and noise, and also painting themselves as innocent victims. Get off that horse while it's still standing, please.
> 
> Practically nobody is is saying DTRPG is evil as such. What they (and I) *are* saying is that the current form of DRM used is stupid, counterproductive and ethically questionable. Why? Everyone has their own reasons, but the most common complaints are:
> 
> ...


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> You know you realy shouldn't temp people like that. The last time I remember seeing coments like that was the Dungeon/Poly incident. Dungeon readers complained bitterly and loudly and were told if we don't like it don't buy it. Guess what we didn't buy it and a year latter it is anounced that due to falling subscriber numbers thay are going back to what the customers said they wanted.




You are probably right. At the same time, people then got what they wanted didn't they?



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Sure for White Wolf and Necromancer any sales are more than the no sales you had before, but for people like Malhavoc who did fine before there will almost certainly be a sales hit from this.




Right now I guessing that some people wished they had waited several weeks to see how things would go before even bothering to release anything. I really don't know



			
				Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> All I can say is see DIVIX.




If DRM goes away tomorrow I won't be crying about it. I don't think it will. I don't think it is a good system, but I don't happen to have a better one in my back pocket nor do I think I can convince publishers that they don't need to use copy protection. There is a lot of entrenchment there, and a lot of fear.

I personally think that print publishers are further behind the "electronic" game than even the recording industry.


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## Tsyr (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I don't recall calling complaints against DRM "whining" or "noise." Some people have real complaints and problems using DRM. I did say that these people probably aren't going to be customers and are quite probably a fraction of the possible audience. While a few of the publishers at DTRPG did have pdf products, most did not. People are complaining about added availabilty of products that don't match their expectations.




This is largely the problem (That gets people riled up, as opposed to DRM which just makes us not buy the stuff) though looked at from the wrong angle.

Us "probably a fraction of the possible audience" are the people who have supported and embraced PDFs all along, have pushed for more companies to support it, and have felt that it was a good direction for companies to take.

Now we are being pushed to the wayside, told (not just by you) that we are not a signifigant audience, that if we don't buy them, no biggie, they don't think we are the right audience anyhow.

That hurts.


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## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

(I snipped some of your post)

Let's remember that some publishers are so afraid of piracy that they don't want to release any electronic products at all. I was rather surprised at the list of companies at DTRPG. If they do start to feel that pdfs are cutting into print sales, you won't see pdfs. 

For print publishers, print sales are everything. Electronic releases are, at best, a tiny added market. Could this be different? Yes, absolutely. Eventually, I think there is going to be a huge electronic market, I just don't see that happening soon. When it does happen, I am afraid that print publishers are going to be as far behind the game as the record industry is as far as electronic distribution.



			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> But also, I think you comment does fall slightly prey to the DRM works illusion.
> If DRM Tome of Horrors pdf is out there, it will not be long at all before non-DRM Tome of Horros pdf is out there.  So including DRM or not is largely academic.  If piracy will cut into print sales, then they should avoid PDFs altogether.  If it won't, then there is little value in DRM.


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

Okay, but right now it appears most of the publishers using DRM/DTRPG aren't doing it to "jump on the pdf bandwagon." They are doing it as an added distribution route to areas they can't reach. A lot of these publishers are terrified of electronic publishing and just barely getting their feet wet. 

I am not saying that *I* feel that this is the right route, but I have seen and heard where these people are coming from. Numerous posts have already demonstrated that DRM is a flawed protection system, I am not trying to argue that. I am saying that without it, many of these publishers would not even step into the pond. Now that they are stepping in, maybe they'll decide the water isn't that deep and cold after all, and that maybe they can relax their paranoia. 



			
				Tsyr said:
			
		

> This is largely the problem (That gets people riled up, as opposed to DRM which just makes us not buy the stuff) though looked at from the wrong angle.
> 
> Us "probably a fraction of the possible audience" are the people who have supported and embraced PDFs all along, have pushed for more companies to support it, and have felt that it was a good direction for companies to take.
> 
> ...


----------



## francisca (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> (I snipped some of your post)
> 
> Let's remember that some publishers are so afraid of piracy that they don't want to release any electronic products at all. I was rather surprised at the list of companies at DTRPG. If they do start to feel that pdfs are cutting into print sales, you won't see pdfs.
> 
> For print publishers, print sales are everything. Electronic releases are, at best, a tiny added market. Could this be different? Yes, absolutely. Eventually, I think there is going to be a huge electronic market, I just don't see that happening soon. When it does happen, I am afraid that print publishers are going to be as far behind the game as the record industry is as far as electronic distribution.



I've speculated (maybe in this thread, maybe another, I dunno) that the companies who were print-only are going to be the only ones who make any money on this.  I actually think that some illicit copies getting out will lead to more sale of physical copies, and then they get whatever they make from sale on DriveThruRPG.   

I wonder how many sales DriveThruRPG has racked up so far.  I bet it's quite a bit.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> (I snipped some of your post)
> 
> Let's remember that some publishers are so afraid of piracy that they don't want to release any electronic products at all. I was rather surprised at the list of companies at DTRPG. If they do start to feel that pdfs are cutting into print sales, you won't see pdfs.
> 
> For print publishers, print sales are everything. Electronic releases are, at best, a tiny added market. Could this be different? Yes, absolutely. Eventually, I think there is going to be a huge electronic market, I just don't see that happening soon. When it does happen, I am afraid that print publishers are going to be as far behind the game as the record industry is as far as electronic distribution.




OK.  I'm glad to hear that you agree.
But the point that DRM security is an illusion remains.  False security is worse than no security.  

So why is it again they bothered?


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Not clear on how you get from DRM to foreign countries.  Non-DRM products can reach foreign countries.  And DRM isn't particularly meaningful, in places where US copyright does not apply.




Basically, I know that Necromancer Games felt they didn't have the time or manpower to do pdf/electronic releases. DTRPG offered services that allowed this with no effort on the part of NG. NG said yes due to complaints from fans about a few out of print items and fans from overseas that hoped for a less expensive way to obtain products. I am sorry about the confusion, but NG's participation had, as I understand it, absolutely nothing to with whether or not DTRPG was going to use DRM or any method of copy protection. 



			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> First, the internet literate types greatly disproportionately represent the pdf consumer base.
> 
> You are giving up 5 birds in the hand for one in the bush.
> 
> ...




I agree that anyone "internet literate" is going to be a disproportionate part of the customer base. I do think DRM can be inconvenient for anyone with more than one machine to deal with, or anyone that tries print at work, etc. I have 4+machines myself, and use several different OS's. I am only trying to present the idea that we are talking about print publishers getting into electronic releases. The paranoia there is really pretty high.

I have already said I am not a proponent of DRM, at the same time, I have said that I don't think it is going away soon. I believe that it was a selling point to get some of the publishers on DTRPG's list to take the chance on pdfs (I have absolutely no inside information that this is true-this is supposition based on what certain people involved in certain companies listed there have said about electronic products in the past).

DRM is a pain to many of us, but to the "average" user with one computer and one printer at home, it really isn't. As the number of household computers increases, some sort of adjustment has to be made, I don't know what that would be.

edit: the site is really slow for me right now, I am trying to answer posts the best I can.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 9, 2004)

*Friendly Note*

Mr. Lawinger, I think a large part of the "betrayal" feeling that a lot of people are having is _not_ stemming from the print-only companies trying PDF sales for the first time, but companies such as Malhavoic and Fiery Dragon _switching_ to DRM. That is the impression that I am getting, at any rate, and people, correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, hopefully these new-to-pdf publishers will relax eventually. But the people who supported companies _already_ into pdf publishing (like the two mentioned above) are being "pushed to the wayside" (to quote Tsyr) by those _very same _publishers they have been purchasing pdfs from all this time. 

What does that say about those company's customer-relations?

At the moment, I can't say. I _can_ say that it doesn't look good, though.

Especially since it has been proven that DRM is easily cracked, thus negated what is _assumedly_ the main reason for the pulling of "normal" pdfs from the market.

I have to admit, someone over a Adobe has one h*ll of a salesperson to push this DRM thing so hard and to get so many to sign on. 

Leaving out the new-to-pdf publishers entirely, there is a great deal of failed trust in this thread because of those publishers who previously engaged in the pdf market.

Just my observations on the matter (and yes, I have read this _whole_ thread and many of the others currently floating around the boards on this topic).  I am also trying hard to create that suspension of belief that the reasons these companies made this move was for "Customer Service" reasons like has been suggested by others in this thread.



			
				PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Okay, but right now it appears most of the publishers using DRM/DTRPG aren't doing it to "jump on the pdf bandwagon." They are doing it as an added distribution route to areas they can't reach. A lot of these publishers are terrified of electronic publishing and just barely getting their feet wet.
> 
> I am not saying that *I* feel that this is the right route, but I have seen and heard where these people are coming from. Numerous posts have already demonstrated that DRM is a flawed protection system, I am not trying to argue that. I am saying that without it, many of these publishers would not even step into the pond. Now that they are stepping in, maybe they'll decide the water isn't that deep and cold after all, and that maybe they can relax their paranoia.


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 9, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> I've speculated (maybe in this thread, maybe another, I dunno) that the companies who were print-only are going to be the only ones who make any money on this.  I actually think that some illicit copies getting out will lead to more sale of physical copies, and then they get whatever they make from sale on DriveThruRPG.
> 
> I wonder how many sales DriveThruRPG has racked up so far.  I bet it's quite a bit.



I bet it's not.

I'm sure they've distributed a lot of "free" product.  I doubt they've seen tons of sales.  Why?

The following justification is PURELY speculative:

Their current #8 bestseller is the "Book of Hallowed Might II."

That's Monte's #1 bestseller.  His #4 bestseller is "Chaositech."  Among Monte's "special books," Chaositech is the ONLY seller (the "bestseller" list for that category is exactly one entry long).  That's up from #6 last night, but I'm going to guess that jump represents just one or two sales.

My guess - at it's complete speculation - is that Chaositech has no more than five or six sales and the BoHM2 has no more than ten... which suggests that their site-wide bestseller may have 15-20 tops.

END speculation

I may be totally off, though.  As someone who despises DRM, I hope I'm not.  Not because I want DTRPG to fail, but because I hope they get the STRONG message that DRM is NOT acceptable and that as a result they will eliminate DRM.  I do not want DTRPG to succeed with DRM because I feel it sends the wrong message.

--The Sigil


----------



## francisca (Jun 9, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> I bet it's not.
> 
> I'm sure they've distributed a lot of "free" product.  I doubt they've seen tons of sales.  Why?
> 
> ...




I despise DRM too.  But I think most people don't care, though I am (pleasantly) surprised that the poll asking if people will be buying from DriveThru is 85% no.

Time will tell.  Or maybe it won't. 
 

Crap.  Answering you reminds me, I still need to review OGL Fantasy Light.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Basically, I know that Necromancer Games felt they didn't have the time or manpower to do pdf/electronic releases. DTRPG offered services that allowed this with no effort on the part of NG. NG said yes due to complaints from fans about a few out of print items and fans from overseas that hoped for a less expensive way to obtain products. I am sorry about the confusion, but NG's participation had, as I understand it, absolutely nothing to with whether or not DTRPG was going to use DRM or any method of copy protection.




Ah.  That is a good answer.  Thanks.  
And it is certainly consistent with my prior attitude toward Necromancer.

It is to bad that the DMR baggage came along.



> I agree that anyone "internet literate" is going to be a disproportionate part of the customer base. I do think DRM can be inconvenient for anyone with more than one machine to deal with, or anyone that tries print at work, etc. I have 4+machines myself, and use several different OS's. I am only trying to present the idea that we are talking about print publishers getting into electronic releases. The paranoia there is really pretty high.
> 
> I have already said I am not a proponent of DRM, at the same time, I have said that I don't think it is going away soon. I believe that it was a selling point to get some of the publishers on DTRPG's list to take the chance on pdfs (I have absolutely no inside information that this is true-this is supposition based on what certain people involved in certain companies listed there have said about electronic products in the past).
> 
> ...



What makes your definition of the "average" user accurate?  As you stated above, internet literate people will be strongly represented.  Your definition of average contradicts that in my experience.  Plus, you are neglecting that many people who will not be directly bothered by the hoop-jumping will still avoid the product because of registration requirements and big brotherism.

If you didn't really know that your customer base if fairly paranoid, then you need to find a new line of work.  Us paranoids have got the cash in our pockets, do you want it or not?

Lastly, let me see if I have this correct:
DRM security is an illusion.
DTRPG is marketing that illusional security to its clients.
This will lead to DRM being here to stay?

Sorry, business and entire markets go bust all the time.  Virtually all of the had strongly committed and confident investors at the start.  If the business model is non-viable, it will crash and burn eventually.


----------



## Henry (Jun 9, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> Crap.  Answering you reminds me, I still need to review OGL Fantasy Light.




Don't feel left out. 

Spence, I'lll post mine tonight, too. I've been swamped at home, but just came back up for air.


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

(some snipped, I don't view this particular thread as vitriolic, or wouldn't be responding to it, I don't view myself as any sort of victim)


			
				Psion said:
			
		

> That's fine. You are 100% correct. The previously print only publishers are not taking away anything.
> 
> Just be aware that your current pricing will not appeal to what many typical PDF buyers shop for. Many of us seek commonly used apps in electronic format in addition to printed format because it allows additional utility in terms of copy and pasting to game notes, printing out individual pages, and less weight if you need to go to a game elsewhere and don't want to take a hand truck with you to cart your crates of books. Priced at 50% or less of print MSRP, that's what many established PDF buyers do.
> 
> If you are only marketing to those who can't get the print books and really want them, your pricing will meet that need but little more. If you do that consciously, I don't see that anyone can begrudge you that.




People are still dealing with pricing of pdfs right now. Clark Peterson has already posted that yes, Necro can set prices, but that Necro trusts SSS/WW to do that for us. They make money on each sale, it is in their best interest to obtain as many sales for us as possible and we trust them to help us with pricing. Having a company that takes care of printing, warehousing, pricing, and distribution allows us to focus on making books. Last I checked, the only books we had up at DTRPG were two of our most recent releases. I don't think you'll see heavy discounts on pdfs of recent/current print releases but I am really not certain how that will work out in the end.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> Ah, but that's two different things. Some form of copy protection, perhaps. But DRM is not, IMO, currently a customer friendly solution. It's riddled with problems. I predict (<--- mark words) that if it is not improved significantly, it will be replaced by a protection that won't piss off customers.
> 
> Even then, I am not so certain. Someone else linked to an article by a software company that deliberately does not include intrusive software protection. I think that if publishers are really concerned about making things work in an electronic world, they should pay heed to those who have already been down that route.




Is DRM a good answer? I don't really think so, but I think it is the answer that was used to entice some pretty reluctant people into releasing some electronic books. Personally, if DRM helped some people start taking chances and thinking about how to deal with future electronic releases then I think it has had its benefit. The waters aren't that scary to some of us, but to many print publishers electronic releases are just terrifying.

I think I mentioned it somewhere before, I think print publishers (this is just a generalization) are as far behind in the electronic industry as the recording industry has been. I honestly think they'll end up playing "catch up" a few years from now. Right now, the cost of printing a product on your home printer and the screen resolution of most "readers" and screens is holding up electronic publishing. I believe that screen resolutions and prices are changing quickly (printer costs, um, probably won't) and that e-publishing is getting ready for a huge expansion in the future. I also believe that this expansion is going to be driven by the present high school and college-age students as they go out into the work force and become a (more) serious economic force. These are people that are used to reading screens, used to reading laptops, and not as acclimated to "holding a solid paper book" in their hands like some of the rest of us. I am also biased, I have a long-standing investment in one of the companies that makes the materials used to make these screens .

Part of the problem, as I see it, is that print publishers (again, generalizing here) want someone else to take care of the copyright/piracy issues before they jump in. Of course, like everyone else, they expect this to then be given away cheaply. This essentially means that nobody is making a concerted effort to come up with a copy protection system that is actually secure AND that doesn't inconvenience the customer or a subset of customers. The focus has generally been on security for documents within a business, not security for documents designed to be sold and distributed. It is a problem that needs a solution.


----------



## francisca (Jun 9, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> Don't feel left out.
> 
> Spence, I'lll post mine tonight, too. I've been swamped at home, but just came back up for air.



Thanks Henry!  I'm sure I'll feel better when your review is posted, and mine is still random scribblings in my notebook.


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## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

I really have no idea what the contract between DTRPG and the companies using it might be. I have no idea what the decision making processes were for Malhavoc and FD moving over and switching to DRM, I also don't know if this is a requirement of distribution through DTRPG. 

I have a huge amount of respect for Monte and everyone at FD. I do not think that they in anyway meant their changes to reflect any lack of caring for their customers. These guys, quite frankly, are some of the nicest in this business and I think a glance at how often Monte responds to posts on his message boards and other message boards shows how concerned he is about his customers. 




			
				Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Mr. Lawinger, I think a large part of the "betrayal" feeling that a lot of people are having is _not_ stemming from the print-only companies trying PDF sales for the first time, but companies such as Malhavoic and Fiery Dragon _switching_ to DRM. That is the impression that I am getting, at any rate, and people, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Yes, hopefully these new-to-pdf publishers will relax eventually. But the people who supported companies _already_ into pdf publishing (like the two mentioned above) are being "pushed to the wayside" (to quote Tsyr) by those _very same _publishers they have been purchasing pdfs from all this time.


----------



## Vascant (Jun 9, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Lastly, let me see if I have this correct:
> DRM security is an illusion.
> DTRPG is marketing that illusional security to its clients.
> This will lead to DRM being here to stay?



DRM is what a front door with a lock is to a house.  It keeps honest people honest however, if you want in there is always a way.  
While some salesperson would have you believe it is the answer to all your secure publishing needs any techie will tell you this does not exist.  If a company felt they needed DRM before releasing any form of PDF, you should have let that company stay in the physical side of the publishing business and even then, books are scanned by the people who buy them, so are you really safe.  

My real issue is this.. I feel Malhavoc Press and the like have betrayed me as a customer, very long standing customer I might add.  Now, does that bother Mr Cook, who knows.  It would be like subscribers to Dragon asking that Monti not write for them anymore because we have forgotten all the good things he has done for DnD and just made a snap decision without any thought to the dominos that may fall or the people it really effects.  RPGNow and it's customers have supported a few of these companies that junped ship all of a sudden and I know I feel you have turned your back to me.

Just think, someone new coming into DnD and quite easily they find themselves here today and their first sight will be learning about the such companies.  85% is pretty high even if you factor in +/- 10%, thats your reputation today.. and your first impression to many.  Are we wrong, no because we have a right to our opinion and believe it or not, we hold the key to success because we are the customer!

Now for something that bugs me.. "first professional site".
You are not, Period.  You are not the first and you are in some cases not professional either.  What you are is an a site focused to bring publishers not already in the electronic publishing business to the internet consumer.  Your site looks like it has been modelled after a dark alley for shady dealings too, most drive thru's in reality atleast try to have a present store front.  Reminds me of Paizo, they handle 2 of the most wide spread RPG periodicals and yet has a website that my kids could have done, actually I think they can do better.  We return to the phrase of "First Impression".  I read where some say little to no marketing was done for pricing, I honestly have no clue but I will say if the company seems this flawed with how it handles, treats and presents itself to the consumers then it is a fair guess to say, alot of things need to be addressed.  Where as Psion stated or guessed the number of sales certain products are probably having at the moment, have you figured out how many sales you have lost?


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> What makes your definition of the "average" user accurate?  As you stated above, internet literate people will be strongly represented.  Your definition of average contradicts that in my experience.  Plus, you are neglecting that many people who will not be directly bothered by the hoop-jumping will still avoid the product because of registration requirements and big brotherism.




I don't know that the definition of "average" is accurate. How do you define average? I have 4 computers (okay, really something like 6, but one is no good and the other isn't used). Now, of my family and wife's family, let's see, the only people with more than one computer are the ones who use computers for work (wife's sister and her husband) and they essentially never "mix" machines because their respective employers own their laptops. My sisters (2), brother, parents, mother and father-in-law, and my other sister-in-law all have one active machine at home. 

What I have seen seems to indicate that people believe that "average" means one computer at home.

I don't think that people actively buying pdfs are going to fall into this "average" very easily. I would guess that most have more than one machine and/or access to more than one machine. At the same time, even though I have 4 machines, I generally focus my work on only one or two, the others are for my kids to play games on, special projects, etc.

I am pretty sure DTRPG sales and customer complaints will speak volumes to them as to whether they have made the right choice. I have no idea what either will be. The company isn't even a week old, based on the people that are working there, I am pretty sure they'll make whatever adjustments they believe they need to make. Will all of us agree with those adjustments? Probably not. I am of a wait and see attitude. Personally, the number of publishers they do have on their list is a pleasant surprise to me. It means that publishers who wanted nothing to do with electronic publishing are taking an interest and giving it thought. It is an important first step.

The site is really slow for me. If I don't respond, or if my responses seem to skip right over posts on the same topic, er, well, oops ...


----------



## Fiery James (Jun 9, 2004)

Goddess FallenAngel said:
			
		

> Mr. Lawinger, I think a large part of the "betrayal" feeling that a lot of people are having is _not_ stemming from the print-only companies trying PDF sales for the first time, but companies such as Malhavoic and Fiery Dragon _switching_ to DRM. That is the impression that I am getting, at any rate, and people, correct me if I am wrong.
> 
> Yes, hopefully these new-to-pdf publishers will relax eventually. But the people who supported companies _already_ into pdf publishing (like the two mentioned above) are being "pushed to the wayside" (to quote Tsyr) by those _very same _publishers they have been purchasing pdfs from all this time.
> 
> ...




Was Fiery Dragon every _really_ considered any sort of PDF publisher?  Really?  

We've never created anything specifically for PDF.  The only things we ever sold on PDF were two out-of-print adventures using the 3.0 system (and, even more out-dated now, 3.0 psionics at that!)  Mind you, they were both good adventures, but we made them available a year or more after the print versions had sold out.

I understand that we left RPGNow and that may have been seen as a big deal by some, but really it's a tiny amount of money (really tiny) and it's just easier for us to use one place as opposed to 2 for such small amounts (after all, who wants to get a semi-annual cheque for $10 when you can get one for $15 ?!?)

I think anyone shocked or disturbed by FDP moving is really overstating the case, as far as us as a PDF-publisher is concerned.

- James


----------



## PatrickLawinger (Jun 9, 2004)

Just to make it absolutely clear. None of my comments or opinions here have anything to do with DTRPG, or WW/SSS. I have presented my opinions on what I believe some publishers are thinking. I am not a representative of DTRPG nor of White Wolf. While I am a writer and developer for Necromancer Games, none of the opinions and suppositions I have stated here are official positions or representations of Necromancer Games. 

That said, it is time to go do a few things with my kids.


----------



## Psion (Jun 9, 2004)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> Was Fiery Dragon every _really_ considered any sort of PDF publisher?  Really?




A major player in the PDF field? No.

Was it nice to have the option to pick up some fun adventures from the finest adventure publisher that sadly doesn't turn their hand to adventures anymore (insert obligatory whine about who I really would have loved to have seen Gates of Oblivion and OSM II) without worrying about if the adventure will be there 10 years down the road so I could relive it with my buddies? You betcha!


----------



## Fiery James (Jun 9, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> A major player in the PDF field? No.
> 
> Was it nice to have the option to pick up some fun adventures from the finest adventure publisher that sadly doesn't turn their hand to adventures anymore (insert obligatory whine about who I really would have loved to have seen Gates of Oblivion and OSM II) without worrying about if the adventure will be there 10 years down the road so I could relive it with my buddies? You betcha!






Here's my catch-phrase for our 2005 plans: "Adventure-in-a-box!"

As far as Gates of Oblivion, we're thinking of scheduling 3-month periods where Todd will personally come to your house and run the adventure!  Talk about having an idea that just keeps growing and growing until it's a monster, and a CR 23 at that!

- JB


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## Dimwhit (Jun 9, 2004)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> I understand that we left RPGNow and that may have been seen as a big deal by some, but really it's a tiny amount of money (really tiny) and it's just easier for us to use one place as opposed to 2 for such small amounts (after all, who wants to get a semi-annual cheque for $10 when you can get one for $15 ?!?)




Hey, I just bought Beyond All Reason from DTRPG yesterday, if that bumped the $15 number up for you at all!


----------



## Yair (Jun 9, 2004)

I would just like to thank Patrick Lawinger for his cool and reasoned responses. You made it much clearer to me why some publishers chose what they chose.
So thanks.


----------



## PetriWessman (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> If people want real change, politely worded posts work best, polite emails are even better. Between this thread, other threads here, and on some other boards, I have seen a lot of blatant attacks. It looks like several posts I saw earlier have been edited and that the anger seems to be more tempered.
> 
> At the same time, I didn’t realize I was on a horse, perhaps if I was I would have a different perspective.




I probably came off as harsher than intended, and I apologize. I don't necessarily agree with all your views, but that's a separate issue. 

I hope this all works out for the best for everyone concerned. In my ideal world, DTRPG would realize that their delivery format has problems and is hurting their sales, and change it to some non-intrusive alternative (watermarked files, etc). After that they realize that the prices are set a bit too high and lower them. All this leads to nice, steady sales and lots of happy customers. Soon after this the U.S. is amazed to discover that the invasion of Iraq suddenly *has* led to a new democratic Arab world and the locals start throwing flowers at their feet. Soon after this the Easter Bunny makes a press conference, announcing his new business venture with the Tooth Fairy, "Eggs For Teeth".

Ahem. Sorryabouthat.


----------



## Goddess FallenAngel (Jun 9, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I really have no idea what the contract between DTRPG and the companies using it might be. I have no idea what the decision making processes were for Malhavoc and FD moving over and switching to DRM, I also don't know if this is a requirement of distribution through DTRPG.



Thank you Mr. Lawinger, as I wasn't really looking for an answer. Rest assured, I did not expect you to know the answer, as you are not a rep of any of the companies involved in my rant - but I do appreciate the response.

Really, all I was trying to get across was that most of your posts have been focused on the new-to-pdf companies, when I think a big part of the rants on this thread have been not because of that, but because of "old" pdf publisher(s) "jumping ship". That's all. 



			
				Fiery James said:
			
		

> Was Fiery Dragon every _really_ considered any sort of PDF publisher? Really?
> 
> We've never created anything specifically for PDF.... _<snip>_



Sorry, I used your name primarily just as an example, as yourself and Monte being the two that came to mind while I was typing as having switched companies. That's all.


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## JRRNeiklot (Jun 9, 2004)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> Was Fiery Dragon every _really_ considered any sort of PDF publisher?  Really?
> 
> We've never created anything specifically for PDF.  The only things we ever sold on PDF were two out-of-print adventures using the 3.0 system (and, even more out-dated now, 3.0 psionics at that!)  Mind you, they were both good adventures, but we made them available a year or more after the print versions had sold out.
> 
> ...





The thing is, it's not the money, or ease of use for some of us.  It's the principal.  Fiery Dragon, Malhavoc, Necro, etc has betrayed us.  it's like going to the book store and finding an electronic chip in all my favorite novels that lets me read it only at home, stops me from quoting Mark Twain for my research project, and unlike a hard copy, is easily lost, and, although it costs the publisher NOTHING to send me another copy, if the original is lost, they refuse.

Meanwhile, a pirate gets to do what he wishes with his copy, and with absolutely no hassle.  With print products, these pdfs are ALREADY available for free and unrestricted.  Yet, we must pay to rent one?  Not me.  Nice job guys.  You have actually managed to INCREASE piracy.  People like me, who would ordinarily have GLADLY paid you for your product are forced, on principle to seek out pirated copies, when, as easy as they are to find, principle alone was filling your pockets.  You guys have embraced an evil concept, in my mind, MUCH more evil than piracy.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 9, 2004)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Fiery Dragon, Malhavoc, Necro, etc has betrayed us.




With all due respect, that's more than a little overly-melodramatic.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 10, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> I don't know that the definition of "average" is accurate. How do you define average?




I think I am in the vicinity of the average PDF user.  And this is completely unacceptable to me.  Even if the average were somewhat more accepting, it wouldn't be enough.



> My sisters (2), brother, parents, mother and father-in-law, and my other sister-in-law all have one active machine at home.



How many RPG pdfs do they buy a month?



> I don't think that people actively buying pdfs are going to fall into this "average" very easily.



Well, before we were talking about the "average" RPG pdf consumer.
It isn't meaningful to change the defintion halfway through the conversation.

If we stay with a defintion that is applicable to the topic, then I think you are being overly optimistic.  (And this is only to address one of a laundry list of reasons people will tend to avoid buying DRM stuff)


----------



## Felon (Jun 10, 2004)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, a pirate gets to do what he wishes with his copy, and with absolutely no hassle.  With print products, these pdfs are ALREADY available for free and unrestricted.  Yet, we must pay to rent one?  Not me.  Nice job guys.  You have actually managed to INCREASE piracy.  People like me, who would ordinarily have GLADLY paid you for your product are forced, on principle to seek out pirated copies, when, as easy as they are to find, principle alone was filling your pockets.




You're "forced on principle" to steal? Let me be straightforward here: that's a load of childishly melodramatic BS. It is pretty damned immature to try to rationalize an act that's clearly wrong. Have you been reading _Les Miserables_ recently? 

Fact is, you're not living on the streets, and you're not being forced to steal a loaf of bread to fend off starvation. This isn't that big of a deal. You aren't a victim, and you haven't been "betrayed", because there's no sacred bond between you and the publishers to betray. There's no monstrous conspiracy, just some folks trying to find a way to make PDF publishing profitable. If you don't want to buy their PDF's, then don't. If enough folks agree, profits will dip and that'll send them a message (and that message, btw, isn't "ditch DRM" but rather "ditch online publishing because we can't turn a profit"). 

And if you're going to steal, then steal away. But realize that's makes you just as much a thief as the next jerk. 

Folks, indignants posts like this are puerile are narcissistic in the extreme. Calm down and discuss the topic in a lucid manner.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Jun 10, 2004)

How's the old saying go?  Treat someone like a thief and don't be surprised if they become one?

I was speaking metaphorically anyway, but you were too caught up in your personal attack to realize it.  Nice job.


----------



## Felon (Jun 10, 2004)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> I was speaking metaphorically anyway,




A weak evasion. Let's see: "People like me, who would ordinarily have GLADLY paid you for your product are forced, on principle to seek out pirated copies". You endorsed theft as being "forced on principle", and now you're saying it was just a metaphor. 



> but you were too caught up in your personal attack to realize it.  Nice job.




Once again, we see that _you're_ the victim.


----------



## JRRNeiklot (Jun 10, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> A weak evasion. Let's see: "People like me, who would ordinarily have GLADLY paid you for your product are forced, on principle to seek out pirated copies". Show me the metaphor.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, we see that _you're_ the victim. You're endorsing theft as being "forced on principle". That's what I said you were doing, and that's what you did.




Perhaps I misspoke. I meant that "People like me, who would ordinarily have GLADLY paid you for your product" may seek out other means such as piracy.  They are like me in that they would have gladly paid for an unrestricted product.  Just because I show some restraint and just boycott them, doesn't mean everyone will.  Some will become pirates now that weren't before, just on principle.  Treat them like thieves, they become thieves.


----------



## RCanning (Jun 10, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> SNIP
> 
> I may be totally off, though.  As someone who despises DRM, I hope I'm not.  Not because I want DTRPG to fail, but because I hope they get the STRONG message that DRM is NOT acceptable and that as a result they will eliminate DRM.  I do not want DTRPG to succeed with DRM because I feel it sends the wrong message.




Personally, the minute that I can buy non-DRM encoded stuff through DTRPG, there is about $150 worth of books I want; and I will probably buy. At the moment I am hitting their free product so I have things to test the DRM with, and so I can see what the stuff is like; but I am not spending a cent.

It could be a clever tactic. Put DRM up, let people bitch about it for a couple of weeks, everyone has our site on the tip of their tongue, and when they remove it everyone spends money. Hey, it would be clever.

Richard Canning


----------



## Sir Whiskers (Jun 10, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Part of the problem, as I see it, is that print publishers (again, generalizing here) want someone else to take care of the copyright/piracy issues before they jump in.




This actually makes a lot of sense to me. Most companies I've dealt with, when branching into a new (to them) technology, turn to a vendor who is assumed to have the proper expertise. All too often the company learns the hard way that the vendor in question wasn't the best choice, but that's part of the learning curve. If Patrick is right about this, then maybe there's hope they'll change (sooner or later).

Of course, since this still doesn't address the companies who do have prior experience selling pdf's, it's not a complete explanation.


----------



## Creeping Death (Jun 10, 2004)

DM Magic said:
			
		

> I'm not worried. Like you've all said, it only inconveniences honest people. I'm not honest. I'm just going to crack it and use it. I do feel bad for those with morals, though.
> 
> 
> 
> --to the point DM Magic




That wouldn't be me either.  Back in college, I got a C in "Ethics and Values".  So I guess I don't have morals.   

I hate DRM with a passion, I will not use or buy a product from a publisher that is DRM enabled.


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## C. Baize (Jun 10, 2004)

*Bottom lines?*

Everyone has their own bottom line. 
For the publishers, the bottom line is all about the Benjamins. 
Ostensibly, it's about people using their product, because more users equals more money. Realistically, however, they really don't care whether or not you USE their product, just that you BUY their product.

I'm going to go out on a limb here, and speak for the average gamer (I think I qualify... I've been gaming for over 25 years, I've seen the average gamer... in the mirror.   ). 
The bottom line for me (and I suspect for many... possibly even most gamers) can be summed up thusly: how useful is the product to ME?

Print and PDF products normally have the same usefulness to me, if the content is there. Restricting, however, the portability of the product restricts its usefulness to me. You see, game nights are not always at the C. Baize house... Sometimes they're at the Lichkicker house... sometimes they're at the Athen Windwalker house, sometimes they're somewhere else, entirely... 
With most PDFs, I can take them with me on a CD and read them on the computer at the house where the game is being held. 
I can take my books with me, wherever I go, as well. 
With this new lockdown thing that Malhavoc and other DTRPG only companys are actively embracing, it severely limits the usefulness of future Malhavoc (and other DTRPG only companys, obviously) product, until it hits print. This means I'm not likely to purchase future Malhavoc PDFs... if I don't purchase the PDFs, I won't know about them (my FLGS doesn't carry Malhavoc product), therefor, I won't order the print versions when they come out. Bottom line is that Malhavoc, therefor, loses potentially two sales of the same product to me (and likely to others as well). I haven't purchased EVERY Malhavoc PDF, but I have purchased several, and would likely have purchased several more in the future. But I won't, as long as they have the restricted usefulness. This isn't to say that I'll never purchase another Malhavoc product, but it is to say that I'll not purchase locked down PDFs... I did, once, and was completely unhappy with the lack of usefulness of the product. I'll not do it, again. 
I don't require all the players to have copies of the books. They can borrow mine (in which case I do without them for the week), or I can pass them across the table to them while at their house. By the same token, they can use the parts of the PDFs I bring on CD, while I'm at their house (though I don't leave the CDs there).
Another point about PDF convenience. If I have a computer crash, and my CD backup is destroyed, for whatever reason, I can get a new download from RPGNow... apparently I can't do the same from DriveThruRPG, again limiting the usefulness of their product. 
This brings to mind another question... For those companies who have moved to DTRPG... If I should lose my copy of a previously purchased product, have I now LOST the recourse I had of re-downloading (at no extra charge) the product I already purchased? Must I now RE-purchase the product?
You claim to not be taking anything away... well... There's one thing.

I wish you and DTRPG well with future sales, though my Benjamins will not be flowing your direction. 

I may only be pennies to you... but pennies add up after a while.


----------



## RCanning (Jun 10, 2004)

Just found a more detailed and end user friendly version of the Adobe eBook and DRM FAQ.

http://www.adobe.com/products/ebookreader/pdfs/faq.pdf

Just in case people want to read it. It also specifically states that only ONE (1) PC or Mac can be logged in to view a DRM protected file.

Some of the confusion could be caused by some people using MSN IDs and some using Adobe IDs. I chose to go with Adobe because of the rumbles that MSN might start charging for their IDs (or expiring them if you don't pay within a certain time of creating them); still it should not matter which way I choose to go, it should be the way promised by the seller.

Richard Canning


----------



## Psion (Jun 10, 2004)

Fiery James said:
			
		

> Here's my catch-phrase for our 2005 plans: "Adventure-in-a-box!"




And in those few words, Psion's faith in "the boys at Fiery" was restored. 

Hope to see ya all at GenCon!


----------



## dcollins (Jun 10, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Forcing DRM down people’s throats?!
> Hey, we aren’t. If you don’t want it, don’t buy it.




Yes, that is one possible response.

For those who are looking for other possible responses I might recommend the following:

(1) Talk to your friends and family. Make sure they understand the kinds of common usages and forward-compatibility that DRM materials will take away from them. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

(2) Write your legislator to repeal the DMCA. That's the 1998 Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which makes it illegal to remove encryption on products you have bought. http://anti-dmca.org/

(3) Make a donation to the EFF. That's the Electronic Frontier Foundation, which is dedicated to the defending the liberties of technology users (which is of course all of us now). http://www.eff.org/

I've done all three in the past.


----------



## Cyanide (Jun 10, 2004)

I could comment on all the I hate DRM/we're stuck with DRM arguing, but why bother?  It's pretty much all been said.  Something did just occurred to me, though.  Wouldn't it be cool if RPGnow bought drive-thru at some point in the future, because their sales just weren't enough?  Is that possible/likely?  I think that would be delicious irony...


----------



## Heretic Apostate (Jun 10, 2004)

I piss and moan about the troubles I have with PDFs and iTunes and other electronic media.  But so far, I'm (more or less) an honest customer.

I like PDFs.  Back in the day, I had twenty-eight boxes of RPG material, quite a bit bought at out-of-print prices.  Stuff I would only read occasionally, especially since I'd have to shift around a dozen boxes to find the box that had the item I wanted.

So, when I found out that svgames and rpgnow had the old TSR/WOTC out-of-print stuff, I was thrilled.  I could replace my collection with a few megs of PDFs.  And in the process, I bought about 200 out-of-print PDFs (and downloaded another 30 or so free from WOTC).

When someone on EN World wanted the freebies from WOTC, but had a dialup connection, I burned them a CD of all the freebies.  I even added in freebies from other places.  But not one purchased PDF made it onto that CD.

I've been tempted many times to go on a P2P to download a PDF of a print book.  But I've resisted, so far.  I bought the book, though I'd rather had the PDF (less shelf space, and less strain on my back from digging through boxes  ).  But given my history with computer crashes (thankfully, I no longer have WinME... literally a dozen reformats in one weekend, and that happened more than once), I'm leery of anything that doesn't allow portability and archiving.

So, I'll probably wait.  If this experiment continues, I'll search for cracked PDFs, see if I like them, and think about joining the ranks of the frequent-pirates.


----------



## Prime_Evil (Jun 10, 2004)

A quick update:  Steve Jackson Games have just announced that their forthcoming online e-23 online store will _*NOT*_ use DRM. Here's the relevant passage from the announcement on their website:

"*Will the PDFs you sell be user-limited with some sort of digital rights management scheme? * No, they won't. We understand this is a hot issue right now because another company just opened a PDF store with encoded, "protected" PDFs that won't even work on some computers. We looked into that whole issue, and decided that copy protection would create far more trouble for our users than it would save for us. The l33t g00bs will break it anyway, and it annoys the honest people." 

Perhaps it is worth remembering that the business premises of Steve Jackson Games were raided by the Secret Service a few years back to seize the manuscript for GURPS: Cyberpunk on the grounds that it glorified and encouraged computer hacking.....


----------



## Yair (Jun 10, 2004)

RCanning said:
			
		

> It could be a clever tactic. Put DRM up, let people bitch about it for a couple of weeks, everyone has our site on the tip of their tongue, and when they remove it everyone spends money. Hey, it would be clever.
> 
> Richard Canning



I am struck with thoughts of St. Monte, patron saint of pdf publishing, sacrificing his own sales in a machiavelian ploy by convincing print companies a new kind of format would work, only to denounce it later and thus lead them into the one true path [non-crippled pdf publishing].
If only...


----------



## RCanning (Jun 10, 2004)

*Still technical problems.*

I can't remember what thread it was on (yes I admit this is getting out of control), but so far the PDFs from DTRPG have not worked...

I downloaded the PDF, I went to "My Bookshelf" I selected the file and did a "Save a Copy" to a memory stick. The file was then taken to a PC and that PC was logged into my Adobe ID. We then tried to open the file and got a "Bad Encypt Dictionary" error. The file does appear in the "My Bookshelf" on the second computer, but all that is listed against it is a "Download file now" link that does nothing visible.

The following advice was given to me by someone trying to help.


> When you get the "Bad Encryption Dictionary" error go to
> https://aractivate.adobe.com/eden/EdenUI.asp and reactivate your Adobe DRM
> on the pc you have trouble with (you can do this as often as you want).
> This should solve the problem.




This link to use to exactly the same login page as Reader keeps linking back to, and logging in again and then trying to open the file again makes no difference. The file just will not open.

I don't know if it is because I downloaded the file on a Mac and am trying to open it on a Windows machine. I don't know if it is because Adobe just does not want another machine to open it. I don't know if it is because the PDF is set to not allow this. I don't know if it is something else entirely.

What I do know, is that the file does not work. Several people at Fuji-Xerox have tried to open the file; you know, the print specialist guys who develop printers that will print pdf from disc automatically (oh wait, sorry, DRM prevents that) have tried to get this file to work, and they have failed. No this was not sales people - it was tech people.

Over 24 hours as passed since I emailed this fault to DTRPG, and I have not even recieved a confirmation that they have recieved my message. Admittedly it has only been one working day for them (two for me), but I am not hopeful that they will respond with anything but "Go to the Adobe site and re-log in". Done that, didn't work; but I expect that will be the response.

Richard Canning


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 10, 2004)

Prime_Evil said:
			
		

> Perhaps it is worth remembering that the business premises of Steve Jackson Games were raided by the Secret Service a few years back to seize the manuscript for GURPS: Cyberpunk on the grounds that it glorified and encouraged computer hacking.....




Indeed, and it's pretty likely that roleplayers, as a whole, are almost as familiar with that story as they are with the Patricia Pulling debacle.  

I would at least bet that the EFF has more than a proportionate amount of gamers in it's ranks - and I'd be willing to be that online-savvy gamers (the kind that would buy PDFs, again) would be likely to be familiar with electronic freedom issues.  

Which explains the 85+page thread on RPGnet and the 12+ page multiple threads on Enworld (There's more posts per pages on Enworld) 

It's almost sad to see White Wolf, and especially Eden and GOO, shooting themselves repeatedly in the foot.


----------



## 2WS-Steve (Jun 10, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> Which explains the 85+page thread on RPGnet and the 12+ page multiple threads on Enworld (There's more posts per pages on Enworld)




Just as a note--you can set the number of posts per page in the USER CP: Options on RPGnet. I set it to 100 and that thread is down to 9 pages.


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## The Gryphon (Jun 10, 2004)

PatrickLawinger said:
			
		

> Let's remember that some publishers are so afraid of piracy that they don't want to release any electronic products at all. I was rather surprised at the list of companies at DTRPG. If they do start to feel that pdfs are cutting into print sales, you won't see pdfs.
> 
> /snip/



Before DTRPG, all of the companies who produced only print products were having their products pirated by those who scanned them and put them on p2p networks and the like. Adding DRM to their pdf products won't make this problem go away as the same pirates, even if they can't break the DRM protection which is laughable, will just get a copy of the print product and scan it as they always have.

If they don't want PDFs to cut into their print sales, then they should only release them when the books in question finally become out of print, otherwise they are doing themselves and their customers a disservice.


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## isidorus (Jun 10, 2004)

I cannot use (Os problem here) and morally will not use Drm Pdf's anyway. That being said I have a confirmed shopping list now, ones who use Drm and ones who do not. Anyone who uses Drm will not anyway one cent of my money for print or Pdf.

Anyway since this has all come up, I have been seeing some interesting things going on. Ice relases non_drm Harp Pdf early, Steve Jackson Games has decided not use Drm and I talk to Hero Games and their Pdf's are Drm free. Funny thing is I have never bought much of Steve Jackson Games, but am going to do so now to just support their decision. An RpgNow will always have my business, since they are actually listening to the customer.

Am I making a  point her at all. Probably not since as far as I can see from Dtrpg posts on most of them seem to not be listening. Notice I said most here, Patrick seems to be listening but really cannot do anything about the problem. 

Monte now has a Post on his forum boards  in the Line of Site area where he is litening to our concerns. Link is right here http://p222.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm11 By his post though I fall under 3 and will at points be ignored. Not much of a problem to me I guess, but I understand somewhat where he is coming from.

I wish everyone good luck in this, but until Drm goes away I have no use for the Pdf's.


----------



## The Gryphon (Jun 10, 2004)

OOPS, MISTAKEN POST!


----------



## Thanatos (Jun 10, 2004)

isidorus said:
			
		

> ...SNIP...That being said I have a confirmed shopping list now, ones who use Drm and ones who do not. Anyone who uses Drm will not anyway one cent of my money for print or Pdf.




Would you be willing to share that list either on the boards of via email? (thanatos@miratos.com)


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## Voadam (Jun 10, 2004)

Prime_Evil said:
			
		

> Perhaps it is worth remembering that the business premises of Steve Jackson Games were raided by the Secret Service a few years back to seize the manuscript for GURPS: Cyberpunk on the grounds that it glorified and encouraged computer hacking.....




And perhaps it would be better to remember that that was not quite the case. They were raided and all the companies computers and files were seized because the government actually but mistakenly believed the rpg book on cyberpunk was an actual manual detailing how to break into government computers. Steve Jackson was shut down for a while but survived and eventually successfully sued the government. You can read about it on their site. www.sjgames.com


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## isidorus (Jun 10, 2004)

> Thanatos
> Would you be willing to share that list either on the boards of via email?




Disclaimer: This for my buying purposes. I have not had time to list everyone, sorry about that. I update when I can, but I am moving from Maryland to Flordia in 9 days, so I am short of time right at this moment. if I get flamed for posting I will live with it. Hope it is helpful. If any one is in the wrong catergory let me know and how I can confirm it.

That being said here is the list for you Thanatos. 

My no buy list from the Dtrpg site

Alderac Entertainment Group
Chaosium
Dork Storm Press 
Dream Pod 9
Eden Studios 
Fanpro 
Fantasy Flight Games 
Fantasy Games Unlimited 
Fast Forward Entertainment 
Fiery Dragon 
Game Designers' Workshop (GDW) 
Guardians of Order 
Holistic Design 
Malhavoc Press 
Necromancer 
R. Talsorian Games Inc. 
Sovereign Stone Press
Sword & Sorcery 
White Wolf 

Confirmed non-drm pdf people

*Anything on RpgNow* Way to many companies to list but they are all on 
the buy list.

Alternate Realities Publications(Dana Jorgensen Company)
En Publishing
Expeditious Retreat Press
Green Ronin 
Hekaforge Productions (Lejendary Adventure)
Hero Games(PM them myself)
Ice (Iron Crown Enterprises)
Second World Simulations
S.T. Cooley Publishing
Steve jackson Games
Troll Lords (seems confirmed Rpgnow link still on site)
Wotc (As far as I know okay)

Man I am going to have a expensive last half of the year here. So much good stuff not bought and new stuff coming out.


----------



## Thanatos (Jun 10, 2004)

Thanks, I appreciate that you posted the list and gladly accept the margin of error it may contain.

Good luck with your move...I moved from Texas to Iowa last year and boy was it a pain. So you have my sympathy.

Yeah, it does indeed look like a sparse year...wonder what I am going to do with all the money I save 

If I find any errors, I will let you know.

Thanks again.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> He's not being political, he's being correct. But I do understand that some people only like political when it comes with correctness.




   See? This is the reason why I like EnWorld.  Because of the rules, cheap shots like this can be stopped without triggering more than a couple of reactive flames and not full troll attacks.  If you want to defend your ideology to me, you can, be not here.  I'm currently trying to keep this thread open, and not ignore the method of pushing your opinion as revealed gospel and claiming that it actually has some basis in fact instead of being an article of your political screed.

  Mr. Upchurch's personal inability to keep his politics out of his gaming has caused me (along with other aspects) to avoid his articles in KoDT,


----------



## BryonD (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> See? This is the reason why I like EnWorld.  Because of the rules, cheap shots like this can be stopped without triggering more than a couple of reactive flames and not full troll attacks.  If you want to defend your ideology to me, you can, be not here.  I'm currently trying to keep this thread open, and not ignore the method of pushing your opinion as revealed gospel and claiming that it actually has some basis in fact instead of being an article of your political screed.
> 
> Mr. Upchurch's personal inability to keep his politics out of his gaming has caused me (along with other aspects) to avoid his articles in KoDT,




But your cheap shot political comment that he responded to was ok, right?


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

For the purposes of maintaining focus and not burning width  by copying everything, I'm not going to respond to some bits that I consider purely the province of individual opinion, non-interesting or, shall we say, non-flame retardant.  (I had a response to the first paragraph of the original post that I cut as non-productive.)



			
				PetriWessman said:
			
		

> * There is no guarantee that the DRM'ed file will still be usable in, say 5 years time (companies fold, computers get upgraded, etc etc).




  This is a reasonable point.  I have never stolen (oops, sorry all you "Don't you dare call me a thief just because I've stolen something!" types out there; Let me specifically say that this is *not* directed at the writer of the post I am responding to) a pdf copy of a gaming product.  I have quite a few, and they were all obtained through proper channels.  They are useful to me because I can burn them onto CD and access them on a personal computer that is not hooked up to the internet.  If I can only open them on connected computers, then I cannot buy them because I cannot use them, not because I'm offended by anything.  As another person suggested, perhaps a password system would be acceptable by the industry.  I'd even go so far as to accept having the password change every time unit as long as there was some provision to drop this if the company goes out of business.



> * You are locked to viewing the document with one specific program, not the N+1 possible viewers that normal PDFs can be used with.




   There do appear to be ways to view these in different viewers, but I can see this reducing the non-hostile market.



> ...though I must wonder what the business model actually is, since some of the parties involved have stated that their prices are artifically high so they won't compete with the print product (apparently under the illusion that the print product and the PDF somehow the same thing, I guess).




  A benefit of the DTRPG site is to bring new companies to the pdf market.  I hope that some of these cases just represent companies scared like a person sticking their toe in the water.  When it doesn't freeze/get bitten off, they'll (I hope) jump in with a friendlier price structure.  I hope.  I've gotten used to pdf's that cost about half the print version, so prices higher than that set me off buying it.

  This is a very highly charged thread, but I've kept up with it in the hopes of finding the answers to my concerns.  It is probably a little much to hope that Monte et al are still reading this after 20 pages of "You suck!  I'm taking my ball and going home!"

  I have a lot of interest in the new stuff by Malhavoc, but I've held off buying them due the concerns I've listed above.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But your cheap shot political comment that he responded to was ok, right?




 My "cheap shot political comment" was to point out that gratuitous political nature of the comment that *I* was responding to.  Please react with reason, instead of just ideology.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> But the point that DRM security is an illusion remains.  False security is worse than no security.
> 
> So why is it again they bothered?




  Your first statement is not necessarily true.  In copyright infringement cases, it is often important to show that the copyright owner has made an effort to protect the copyright.  Charles Schultz once had to force a person to remove a large mural of Snoopy and Woodstock from an barn advertisement that, in itself, did not hurt the peanuts property, but by not defending the copyright vigorously would make it much harder to defend their copyright in other areas.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> My "cheap shot political comment" was to point out that gratuitous political nature of the comment that *I* was responding to.  Please react with reason, instead of just ideology.



Sorry, but you need to go back and re-read your own words.
You pointed out the political nature of his comment AND ALSO threw in a political comment of your own.
It appears it is you whose reason is blinded by ideology if you can't even see your own words.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Your first statement is not necessarily true.  In copyright infringement cases, it is often important to show that the copyright owner has made an effort to protect the copyright.  Charles Schultz once had to force a person to remove a large mural of Snoopy and Woodstock from an barn advertisement that, in itself, did not hurt the peanuts property, but by not defending the copyright vigorously would make it much harder to defend their copyright in other areas.



Sorry again, but bad reasoning by you.

They can virgorously defend non-DRM product.  Which is exactly what Charles Schultz did in your example.

DRM is supposed to make it more difficult to pirate the material at all.  It fails at this task.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> People like me, ... are forced, on principle to seek out pirated copies, .





  Sigh.  Yes, you're being forced to steal it.  It's always fun to see the rationalizations start.


----------



## Brother Shatterstone (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> My "cheap shot political comment" was to point out that gratuitous political nature of the comment that *I* was responding to.  Please react with reason, instead of just ideology.



Being a complete new comer to this thread I can honestly say that in my opinion your comment looks like it was meant, and delivered, in a negative light.  If this threads continuation is that important to you might want to tone it down just a notch or two. 

and that pretty much goes for everyone involved in this thread.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Sorry again, but bad reasoning by you.
> 
> They can virgorously defend non-DRM product.  Which is exactly what Charles Schultz did in your example.
> 
> DRM is supposed to make it more difficult to pirate the material at all.  It fails at this task.




  If you ignore precautions for the protection of your copyrights, that weakens prosecutions for copyright infringement.  It might just be me, but I missed where you're the one who gets to make legally binding judgements about the value of DRM.


----------



## Brown Jenkin (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Your first statement is not necessarily true.  In copyright infringement cases, it is often important to show that the copyright owner has made an effort to protect the copyright.  Charles Schultz once had to force a person to remove a large mural of Snoopy and Woodstock from an barn advertisement that, in itself, did not hurt the peanuts property, but by not defending the copyright vigorously would make it much harder to defend their copyright in other areas.




Not true. In Trademark cases it is important to vigorously defend your trademark. I would bet that Snoopy and Woodstock are trademarked. As for copyright it is yours no matter what until it expires some decades later (forever if Disney gets it way) or until you specify it is public domain. You can give out 1 million free copies of your work, ignore 10,000 people illegaly reselling your work and then decide that you will only sue Bob who sold one copy to a friend for $0.01. And you don't even need to register it as long as you can prove you are the creator and haven't specificly transfered the rights to someone else.


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> It might just be me, but I missed where you're the one who gets to make legally binding judgements about the value of DRM.




Ah, yes, but of course, you're free to argue why they legally must do it all day. When we point out that they do not legally have to, we lack credentials.

Byron is correct AFAIK, though as always, IANAL... It doesn't matter what efforts go into your production, as long as your efforts to enforce it are solid. IE, nobody says books have to be sold on reflective paper to make xeroxing harder, or anything.


----------



## RCanning (Jun 10, 2004)

I have to say that it has now been 48 hours since I used DriveThruRPGs "Contact Us" form to ask about the "Bad Encryption Dictionary" error that I keep getting.

So far, they have not responded.

Richard Canning


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> Ah, yes, but of course, you're free to argue why they legally must do it all day. When we point out that they do not legally have to, we lack credentials.




  Must you grotesquely caricaturize what I said to respond to it?

  I can make my arguements, you can make yours, but when something is not put forward with any reasoning, but simply an unsupported assertion, there is a problem.  I feel it justified to comment on a claim based solely on a completely unsubstantiated "fact":



			
				ByronD said:
			
		

> DRM is supposed to make it more difficult to pirate the material at all. It fails at this task.




   DRM can be broken, so DRM is not a perfect system, but effort must be taken that clearly  identifies the copy as pirated, or at the very least, pirate-able.  

  If you're offended by the limitations on how much you can cut/paste, that's one thing.

  If the DRM might put reallistically prohibitive limits on how much you can even view the thing, that's another.

  To say, "That painting wasn't DRM and it was protected!"  seemed silly enough to me to comment on.


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> If you ignore precautions for the protection of your copyrights, that weakens prosecutions for copyright infringement.



In the U.S., this is wrong.

There are four different "subdivisions" of that which is commonly lumped under the header "Intellectual Property."  These may or may not overlap; i.e., a given "thing" may fall under multiple categories.

1 - Copyright

2 - Trademark

3 - Patent

4 - Trade Secret

Trademarks must be vigorously defended or you can lose the right to exclusive use of a trademark.  A trade secret must be vigorously defended; once it becomes "common knowledge" you've lost protection (in fact, the "protection" of a trade secret is essentially the secrecy with which you keep it; if you don't keep it secret and it gets out, tough cookies).  Copyrights and patents need *not* be vigorously enforced; you are allowed to apply them whenever and however and to whomever you want, regardless of your past actions with regard to others using that material.

--The Sigil


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 10, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> Sorry, but you need to go back and re-read your own words.
> You pointed out the political nature of his comment AND ALSO threw in a political comment of your own.
> It appears it is you whose reason is blinded by ideology if you can't even see your own words.




  I pointed out specifically what was political.  If I had given my reasoning, or reported it more than once, you might have a point.  But, because I pointed out the comment, I'm the *&%&*^%.  Sure.

  This does point out the major identifiers of partisan fighting:

1) People who agree with you can do nothing wrong
2) Anyone who disagrees with your "side" has to be attacked as viciously as possible in order to keep anyone else from saying anything
3) For some reason, the number of "nyah, nyah, nyah, I know you are but what am I? responses also go up, as well as,
4) Anyone who agrees with you is just stating a "fact", anyone else is "being political"


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> DRM can be broken, so DRM is not a perfect system, but effort must be taken that clearly  identifies the copy as pirated, or at the very least, pirate-able.



Why?  There is nothing in the law that requires this.  Permit me to quote chapter & verse.


			
				U.S. Code Title 17 said:
			
		

> Sec. 106. - Exclusive rights in copyrighted works
> 
> Subject to sections 107 through 121, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:
> (1)
> ...



Placing a file, whether it was originally a "naked PDF" or a "DRM-ed PDF" that has had its protection cracked, on a file-sharing network - and having someone download that file - is a violation of the copyright holder's rights per US Code Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 106 (3) - you are distributing an unauthorized copy.

Nowhere in US copyright law does it say you have to make efforts to protect the original.  It merely says that if Person A holds the copyright to a work and Person B distributes copies of that work without Person A's permission (copies of what he purchased, not the original, so we avoid First Sale problems), THAT is where the crime occurs.

I re-iterate... NOWHERE in U.S. law does the fact that you had added DRM to the PDF make the copyright infringement any more or less than NOT adding DRM would have been.

Now, the act of stripping DRM may itself be a crime - but it's in addition to copyright infringement.  It neither increases nor decreases the severity of the copyright infringement, in the same way that illegally carrying (but not threatening with) a concealed weapon neither increases or decreases the severity of, say, shoplifting.  They are two independent crimes; one does not affect the other.

--The Sigil


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 10, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Must you grotesquely caricaturize what I said to respond to it?
> 
> I can make my arguements, you can make yours, but when something is not put forward with any reasoning, but simply an unsupported assertion, there is a problem.  I feel it justified to comment on a claim based solely on a completely unsubstantiated "fact":




You made a claim that a trademark issue was the cause of copyright protection.

Someone disputed the claim, stating that copyright and trademark laws were two different things.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 11, 2004)

Brother Shatterstone said:
			
		

> Being a complete new comer to this thread I can honestly say that in my opinion your comment looks like it was meant, and delivered, in a negative light.  If this threads continuation is that important to you might want to tone it down just a notch or two.
> 
> and that pretty much goes for everyone involved in this thread.




  I did mean my comment to be negative with regards to the use I objected to.  There does seem to be "the guy who pushes back draws the foul" thing going on, as well as (among some) a mindset of "our poltics are *facts*, and your response is politics".


----------



## Yair (Jun 11, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> Why?  There is nothing in the law that requires this.  Permit me to quote chapter & verse.
> 
> Placing a file, whether it was originally a "naked PDF" or a "DRM-ed PDF" that has had its protection cracked, on a file-sharing network - and having someone download that file - is a violation of the copyright holder's rights per US Code Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 106 (3) - you are distributing an unauthorized copy.
> 
> --The Sigil



I'm probably wrong, but since a DRM file cannot be (legally) read except by the rightful owner, cannot placing a DRM file on a file-sharing server be defended as not braking the copyright under fair-use? 
Further, anyone downloading the file does not brake copyright, since he cannot read it and hence did not, in fact, copy it. If someone cracks the DRM, he *then* commits copyright infringment by making an illegal copy.
But merely placing the file there isn't a violation (the owner could have used it legally - for example to transfer his legal copy to his office, and read it from there), and possibly not downloading it (the copying wasn't completed by the downloading itself - but it lacks a legal reason).
IANAL, though, so am probably wrong.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 11, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> lotsa stuff
> 
> --The Sigil




  Thanks for the clarification, so I'll restate it that it is not unreasonable to attempt to protect copyrights.

  If DRM brings more publishers into the pdf market, that's a good thing.

  If I can't actually use a DRMed pdf because I'm not able to read the thing, that's unfortunate.

  If I can use the thing, I'll happily buy the pdf's I'm waiting for -- I don't think that Malhavoc, AEG, etc., are _evil, evil, *evil*_ for trying this.

  For me at least, it would be much better to have a way to "activate" a pdf on a given PC once, instead of every time its opened.


----------



## Jraynack (Jun 11, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> However, we wouldn't have made the change if we didn't think that they could provide the service our customers require.




As one of the representatives at Alea Publishing Group, we definitely support competition between .pdf distributors.  However, with that said, it is not the DRM that upsets me (for as a publisher we enjoy the thought of better protection against piracy), but the purchasing power of potential customers is limited.  Those wishing to purchase Malhavoc products must go through DriveThru and DRM instead of having a choice between multiple distributors.  Customers should have a choice where to shop for the products they love whether it be at DriveThru or RPGNow.com. If you limit their (our) choice, how are you providing a better service?


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 11, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> You made a claim that a trademark issue was the cause of copyright protection.
> 
> Someone disputed the claim, stating that copyright and trademark laws were two different things.




  None of which you were doing in the post I responded to.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 11, 2004)

Edit: Never Mind


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 11, 2004)

Trying to follow you here...


			
				Yair said:
			
		

> I'm probably wrong, but since a DRM file cannot be (legally) read except by the rightful owner, cannot placing a DRM file on a file-sharing server be defended as not braking the copyright under fair-use?



No.  Fair Use has certain limited definitions, this is (likely) not one of them (I use "likely" because there is no crystal-clear line on exactly what is and is not).

The new copy CAN be read with the right tools.  That the downloader does not have those tools does not change the situation, any more than I could defend picking up a xeroxed copy of a book in the French language because I don't read French or pick up a burned CD for the Mac OS because I don't have a Macintosh-compatible computer.  The possession of the copy is the issue, not the possession of the tools required to read it.  Whether or not someone else has the ability to read a particular copy does not change the fact that *a copy has been made without the consent of the copyright holder*.  



> Further, anyone downloading the file does not brake copyright, since he cannot read it and hence did not, in fact, copy it.



Again, downloading the file is copyright infringement.  A "Copy" is defined in US Code Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 101 as follows (emphasis mine):

''Copies'' are material objects, other than phonorecords, in which a work is fixed by any method now known or later developed, and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated, *either directly or with the aid of a machine or device*. The term ''copies'' includes the material object, other than a phonorecord, in which the work is first fixed. 

Whether or not YOU can perceive the work is immaterial; if the work CAN be perceived with the aid of ANY machine or device (in this case, a computer with the right password/account), the item in question is in fact a copy.  

As an analogy, a burned CD is still a copy of the original CD even if I don't have a CD player.



> If someone cracks the DRM, he *then* commits copyright infringment by making an illegal copy.



No, if someone cracks the DRM, he *then* violates the DMCA in the U.S. (or an analagous law, should one exist abroad; if no such law exists in the jurisdiction where the crack occurs, no crime has been committed).  Copyright infringement doesn't enter into it.



> But merely placing the file there isn't a violation



No.  The act of merely placing a file on a P2P network is NOT copyright violation.  The act of downloading is not, by a strict reading of copyright law, infringement of copyright (though the downloader does come into possession of an unlawfully acquired/produced copy).  The act of uploading - i.e., the act of distribution - is where the copyright infringement occurs.



> (the owner could have used it legally - for example to transfer his legal copy to his office, and read it from there),



This probably falls under "Fair Use" on the argument that the a person who has lawfully obtained a copy does not hurt the potential market for the copy by making an unauthorized copy for himself to read elsewhere (one of the 4 exemplary factors that is to be used to determine "Fair Use").

IANAL either, but hopefully that helps clear things a little.

There are three potentially unlawful situations that can occur in your example, each is independent of the other.

1.) Acquisition of an unlawful copy of a copyrighted work (the downloader)

2.) Copyright infringement through unauthorized distribution (the uploader)

3.) Violation of the DMCA (the person who removes the DRM)

Again, all laws are pertinent to those on U.S. soil only; some areas of the world may or may not have analagous laws, making one or more of the above "crimes" a "non-crime."

--The Sigil


----------



## BryonD (Jun 11, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification, so I'll restate it that it is not unreasonable to attempt to protect copyrights.




It is frustrating to keep seeing this same false argument.  They can protect their product all they want, any way they want.

And if the way they chooses to do so takes away from what we can justly expect to be our fair rights with the product if we did buy it, we have the right to complain.  Heck, they can try to sell it on self-destructing audio cassettes that can only be played once if that is what they really want.  It is their right to do that and our right to point out that it is stupid.

There is a very reasonable case to be made that the particular method selected has serious problems.  To misrepresent that as saying they can not try to protect their property is a red herring and counter-productive.



> If DRM brings more publishers into the pdf market, that's a good thing.




And if it drives consumers away it is a very bad thing.  You can not bring publishers into a market that ceases to exist.



> If I can't actually use a DRMed pdf because I'm not able to read the thing, that's unfortunate.
> 
> If I can use the thing, I'll happily buy the pdf's I'm waiting for -- I don't think that Malhavoc, AEG, etc., are _evil, evil, *evil*_ for trying this.
> 
> For me at least, it would be much better to have a way to "activate" a pdf on a given PC once, instead of every time its opened.




Of course they are not evil for use of DRM.
However, many of them have been extremely short-sighted.
And some of them have been out-right jerks in response to the customers saying they won't play along.


----------



## The Sigil (Jun 11, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clarification, so I'll restate it that it is not unreasonable to attempt to protect copyrights.



I'll agree to disagree with you on this one.  I believe it is an unreasonable attempt to protect copyrights because the way it does so is by using technology to (your choice of terminology): remove some of the protections ("rights") guaranteed to a purchaser of copyrighted material by law OR IF YOU PREFER remove some of the restrictions placed by law on the rights of the copyright holder (i.e., it's a "grab" of something that was not theirs to begin with).  Either way, it's an attempt by copyright holders to broaden their "rights/control" in a way that directly diminishes the consumer's "rights/control."

If you are okay with that, it's your decision.  As a consumer, I happen to dislike that someone is trying to gain more than the law normally provides them by asking me to give up something the law normally provides me, with NO clear external benefits (i.e., I am asked to relinquish my protections with no other real benefits to either party).

I can't even say, "well, a side effect is that piracy is being prevented" because (demonstrably) it's not.  The net effect of DRM is simply a transfer of legal rights/protections from myself to copyright holders, with the added external side effect of inconveniencing me, the consumer.

This does not, IMO, offset the benefit I am gaining by having access to the copyrighted works.  It doesn't even come remotely close.

In essence, the normal course of transaction, which is:



> My Money plus certain rights/protections A, B, and C, given to the copyright holder
> TO THE PUBLISHER IN EXCHANGE FOR
> Access to Copyrighted material plus certain rights/protections D, E, and F granted to the owner of a legally acquired copy, plus the ability to sell that copy at a later date (i.e., potential money), plus the ability to use the work in an unlimited number of places
> TO THE CONSUMER




has been transformed into:



> My Money plus certain rights/protections A, B, and C, given to the copyright holder plus certain rights/protections D and E granted to the owner of a legally acquired copy plus the ability to sell that copy at a later date (i.e., potential money) plus the ability to use the work in an unlimited number of places less 6
> TO THE PUBLISHER IN EXCHANGE FOR
> Access to Copyrighted material plus certain rights/protections F granted to the owner of a legally acquired copy plus the ability to use the work in 6 places
> TO THE CONSUMER



minus (or plus, I suppose, depending on how you look at it) the inconvenience of registration

I as a consumer have lost in this shift:


> certain rights/protections D and E granted to the owner of a legally acquired copy plus the ability to sell that copy at a later date (i.e., potential money) plus the ability to use the work in an unlimited number of places less 6 minus (or plus, I suppose, depending on how you look at it) the inconvenience of registration




That's a pretty darn significant amount I'm giving up for *nothing* in return.  That is one of many reasons I don't like it.

--The Sigil


----------



## Dimwhit (Jun 11, 2004)

BryonD said:
			
		

> And some of them have been out-right jerks in response to the customers saying they won't play along.




Maybe because so many of their customers are being out-right jerks to them. Listening to what some of the people here say about them, I'm confident that's the case.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 11, 2004)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Maybe because so many of their customers are being out-right jerks to them. Listening to what some of the people here say about them, I'm confident that's the case.



Maybe.

I have clients that are jerks.
But they pay me and I am always very nice to them.
If I become a jerk to them once, even if they deserve it, I would be a fool to ever expect to see a penny from them again.

And I think there are some cases where the jerk comments were down-right premeptive on the publisher side, but I'll still agree that your claim of it going both ways is true.  I just won't agree that it matters.


----------



## Funksaw (Jun 11, 2004)

isidorus said:
			
		

> Funny thing is I have never bought much of Steve Jackson Games, but am going to do so now to just support their decision. An RpgNow will always have my business, since they are actually listening to the customer.




SJG, for all I really argue with them, for all they -annoy the hell out of me- for all the bad art and the stupid jugement calls regarding it, that's all been penny-ante stuff.  

(I really don't think there's a game company on this planet I find more frustrating and annoying than SJG.  They drive me f'ing nuts!) 

BUT, they're still a great company, they're still producing products that don't infringe anyone's rights - they've made some major mistakes in the past but usually made up for them, and all in all I can't say that you'd be dissapointed getting into GURPS, especially if you're into D20.  

See, d20's alot like Linux because of the OGL.  Linux was grown from many different programmers and has advanced greatly.  GURPS is more like (the non-open versions of) the Berkley System Distribution - unlike d20, which grew into different genres and was expanded greatly, GURPS was designed from the beginning.

Now, granted, it's not as open as d20, but if you're into highly detailed systems which can be used for a number of different things, GURPS is certainly a good buy and I hope you do buy their products.

Indeed, if GURPS 4e is sold as non-DRMed files at 1/2 the price, I'd probably pick that up despite my problems with the GURPS 4e art... mostly because I can get rid of the GURPS 4e art and just get the meat, arrange it how I like in InDesign, and print it out and play it that way. 

Before you decide if GURPS is for you, I'd suggest checking out GURPS Lite, which is really all you "need" to play gurps, just like all you "need" to play d20 is in the 3.0 player's guide.  It's free - and even though the GURPS Lite currently on the SJG site is 3rd edition, 4th edition GURPS Lite should be launched pretty close to the full product, datewise.  I'd check it out at the very least.  I don't think you'll be dissapointed.


----------



## isidorus (Jun 11, 2004)

Thanks Funksaw I have the older Gurps Lite. Just did not play it to much, My group is D20 all the way.  Though I have play quite a bit of Hero with a older group and bought the Newest Fred, Fh,etc. If the new version of gurps is crunchy as that I be way satisfied.


----------



## PJ-Mason (Jun 11, 2004)

isidorus said:
			
		

> Disclaimer: This for my buying purposes. I have not had time to list everyone, sorry about that. I update when I can, but I am moving from Maryland to Flordia in 9 days, so I am short of time right at this moment. if I get flamed for posting I will live with it. Hope it is helpful. If any one is in the wrong catergory let me know and how I can confirm it.
> 
> That being said here is the list for you Thanatos.
> 
> ...




I'm quite confident that the Necros aren't trying to screw anybody. Clark says they are just trying help out gamers who have trouble getting their stuff, i believe him. Whether he had any peer pressure from WW or not.....i doubt that too i guess. He doesn't seem the type. 

R. Talsorian Games? I wouldn't have guessed they would do something like this. Seems counter-character fro them. huh. Not that they are ever going to come out with more Cyberpunk books. Damn them.

Don't really care about the others, haven't really bought anything from Malhavoc since AU (which was great!). So i guess my lack of gamer bucks won't really hurt them anyway. Go for it Monte! 




			
				isidorus said:
			
		

> Confirmed non-drm pdf people
> 
> *Anything on RpgNow* Way to many companies to list but they are all on
> the buy list.
> ...




Well some of these guys have only oop material and others have only like one book (Green Ronin). Atlas games has several (i think i really do love dem guys!) pdf's up there but i don't know if they are all oop or not. Don't have them all. Sorry John   
So it does seem quite likely that even they are hesitant to put their stuff "up for grabs". Although if they think this DriveThru (as it is set up now)is the answer, they are in for an awakening. I think a lot of these guys need to just nut it up, pardon my french. Other game companies have and they are still in business and don't seem to be going out of it. I really think this boils down to EGOnomics, not economics. A lot game writers (or just writers) can get real attached to their material, fair enough, but at some point you need to get a grip.

I will tell what impact this DriveThru business has had.....RPGnow reports that sales are up 20% above normal. 
Some of that 20% is me. I've decided that i am going to start looking into buying pdf and starting printing. To heck with the print stuff. 
To heck with DriveThru, too. Forcing me to accept sloppy service is not the way to get it done. I don't mean physically forcing, i mean forcing me to go through XXX company to get your material because you'll only give them the right to sell it to me. I don't really give a darn about the particulars of DRM or whatever. Its the point that matters to me. 

Except for Iron Kingdoms! That i will get in print! But to heck with all the OTHER print stuff!


----------



## PJ-Mason (Jun 11, 2004)

RCanning said:
			
		

> I have to say that it has now been 48 hours since I used DriveThruRPGs "Contact Us" form to ask about the "Bad Encryption Dictionary" error that I keep getting.
> 
> So far, they have not responded.
> 
> Richard Canning




Probably because they are too busy reading this thread!!


----------



## RCanning (Jun 11, 2004)

OK.

A few days have passed and what I see is the following.

People seem to be spending more time talking about the legality of P2P, or issues like that, rather than the ones that matter; the inablility of the legitimate customer to use the file they have in a way that is fair and reasonable.

I have recently found post made by a user on www.montecook.com about how many firewalls block the use of DRM. It is here. Basically this for me means that you can not activate the file on any computer that has a strong firewall setup. In this day and age, most computers should have a strong firewall, but that will stop the usage. I am an IT professional who does router configs, and it would take me a while to check header block stripping and stuff like that on a firewall. Joe Average has no hope in hell.

Printing shops all use firewalls, they have to or they will be hacked so bad it is not funny. This means that even if they try to print the file for you, you can't. I expect this is why Fuji-Xerox here in Australia has been unable to open my file to print in their print room, their firewall wont let them.

So.... The issue is not about piracy, the issue is not about Copyright or anything like that. I don't mind protection. But this is beyond that. When DriveThruRPG can come up with a form of protection that works, then I will consider using them.

Oh, on another front, there are rumours that new MS updates will include built in firewalls that can't be turned off to stop some of their security problems; people who have these files better hope that this does not prevernt you from registering your files, or you will have lots of Mb of expensive encoded useless data.

Richard Canning


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 11, 2004)

The Sigil said:
			
		

> I'll agree to disagree with you on this one.




   I do not think that your position is unreasonable.



> ... Either way, it's an attempt by copyright holders to broaden their "rights/control" in a way that directly diminishes the consumer's "rights/control."
> 
> If you are okay with that, it's your decision.  As a consumer, I happen to dislike that someone is trying to gain more than the law normally provides them by asking me to give up something the law normally provides me, with NO clear external benefits (i.e., I am asked to relinquish my protections with no other real benefits to either party).




   It is not that I feel that I am giving up "rights", per se, but any added difficulty or limitations on use affect what I consider to be the value to me of the item, which affects the price I'm willing to pay for it.  Another in this thread has written that cost does not seem to be the determining factor in whether a pdf is purchased or not, and for me that is true only as far as whether or not I think something's cost corresponds to its value.  If I cannot use, for example, the *Book of Iron Might*, then I won't buy it, but not as part of a boycott.  The amount of money I'm willing to pay for *Book of Iron Might* is less than I would pay for the *Book of Eldritch Might* as it was when I bought it, but as I considered the BoEM's as bargains, I might still buy it - once I  know if I can use it.



> I can't even say, "well, a side effect is that piracy is being prevented" because (demonstrably) it's not.  The net effect of DRM is simply a transfer of legal rights/protections from myself to copyright holders, with the added external side effect of inconveniencing me, the consumer.




  How do you mean that piracy is demonstrably not being prevented?  Do you mean that it is possible to break the DRM or that it has been demonstrated that the piracy rate is unaffected?



> That's a pretty darn significant amount I'm giving up for *nothing* in return.  That is one of many reasons I don't like it.
> 
> --The Sigil




  I suppose that one could say that I am looking for in return is a lower price for me to consider it a fair exchange.


----------



## tburdett (Jun 11, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> How do you mean that piracy is demonstrably not being prevented? Do you mean that it is possible to break the DRM or that it has been demonstrated that the piracy rate is unaffected?



Thanks to Cergorach I now know for a fact that, yes, it is possible to remove the DRM.  It takes a right click, [stuff removed due to DCMA concerns, well, not removed as I wasn't stupid enough to put it here in the first place, but you get the idea], and then you have a .pdf file with no DRM at all.


----------



## maddman75 (Jun 11, 2004)

RCanning said:
			
		

> I have recently found post made by a user on www.montecook.com about how many firewalls block the use of DRM. It is here. Basically this for me means that you can not activate the file on any computer that has a strong firewall setup. In this day and age, most computers should have a strong firewall, but that will stop the usage. I am an IT professional who does router configs, and it would take me a while to check header block stripping and stuff like that on a firewall. Joe Average has no hope in hell.




I hadn't even thought of that.  For most people that's going to mean no printing it at work either.  If this is operating on a port that typically gets blocked your network firewall is probably going to keep you from authenticating.  And requests from users to open ports is generally met with derision and laughter.  I'd definately try it with one of the freebies at your work place before I paid for one with the intention of printing it at work.


----------



## Tsyr (Jun 11, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> How do you mean that piracy is demonstrably not being prevented?  Do you mean that it is possible to break the DRM or that it has been demonstrated that the piracy rate is unaffected?




Hope is trying an unproven idea the first time.

Optimism is trying an idea that didn't work the first time again, hoping for a different result.

Beyond that, we get into various levels of insulting terminology.

This is the heart of it: Piracy protection is proven in all other venues to not effect piracy rate (at least to any signifigant level). Believing it will in this case, particularly when a format so well-known to be entierly worthless in securing a document is being used, even in the face of no hard data to prove it (Since hard data of this sort would be very difficult to gather and analyse regardless of the result), well...

I guess it's like sun. I don't have to collect data to know it's going to rise again... Because it clearly will. Common sense tells me this, coupled with a very, very basic understanding of the physics involved (Really. Half-a-sandgrain-on-an-infinite beach level of knowledge.).


----------



## Wasgo (Jun 11, 2004)

tburdett said:
			
		

> Thanks to Cergorach I now know for a fact that, yes, it is possible to remove the DRM.  It takes a right click, [stuff removed due to DCMA concerns, well, not removed as I wasn't stupid enough to put it here in the first place, but you get the idea], and then you have a .pdf file with no DRM at all.




If you mean using a virtual printer, that doesn't work perfectly. It tends to bloat the file massively, and removes the ocr'd text.


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## Tsyr (Jun 11, 2004)

Wasgo said:
			
		

> If you mean using a virtual printer, that doesn't work perfectly. It tends to bloat the file massively, and removes the ocr'd text.




That's actually not strictly true. It depends entierly on what type of virtual printer you are using and how you have it configured. Hypotheticly, it can be done so well that the only loss is the loss of bookmarks.


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## tburdett (Jun 11, 2004)

Wasgo said:
			
		

> If you mean using a virtual printer, that doesn't work perfectly. It tends to bloat the file massively, and removes the ocr'd text.



A wise man once said, "A copy that I can read at work (where we are limited to Acrobat Reader 5 for the forseable future) is better than a copy that won't load at all."  It was me, I'll admit it.


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## RCanning (Jun 11, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> That's actually not strictly true. It depends entierly on what type of virtual printer you are using and how you have it configured. Hypotheticly, it can be done so well that the only loss is the loss of bookmarks.




I read stuff like this and I bang my head on the desk. Not upset at Tsyr, it is just I am caught between...

Option A) I don't want to do anything wrong. I understand the store is trying to protect their sales, and good for them.

and

Option B) I can't print the bloody things. Tell me how to do this so that I can take it somewhere and print it.

On one hand I want to do the right thing, and on the other hand I wan't to be able to use the product. {slam slam slam}

My head hurts.

I just pray they get the "loaning" system working.

Richard Canning

P.S. Can someone tell my why I don't just shut up on this issue? I feel like I am repeatedly banging my head against a wall hoping it will feel good when I stop.


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## Kaleon Moonshae (Jun 11, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> I am not a lawyer, but I had a couple of comments on your comments:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually I have to agree here, it seemed clear to me. Anything that is a mechanic I can use however I want, anything that is a proper noun I can't. White Wolf has always been bad about trying to copyright names that can't be copyrighted. Most of their clan names are not original, and many of their mage terms are common parlance and have been for a couple decades. The fact that they tried to copyright sidhe therefore doesn't surprise me. I have no problem using it, however, since that name and any specific racial prefix that is known in mythology can not be copyrighted.


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## Psion (Jun 11, 2004)

Kaleon Moonshae said:
			
		

> Actually I have to agree here, it seemed clear to me. Anything that is a mechanic I can use however I want, anything that is a proper noun I can't. White Wolf has always been bad about trying to copyright names that can't be copyrighted. Most of their clan names are not original, and many of their mage terms are common parlance and have been for a couple decades. The fact that they tried to copyright sidhe therefore doesn't surprise me. I have no problem using it, however, since that name and any specific racial prefix that is known in mythology can not be copyrighted.




Are you sure you know what you are talking about? You can't copyright individual words, even if they are original.

Trademark is another matter, but that is context limited.


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## Tsyr (Jun 11, 2004)

RCanning said:
			
		

> I read stuff like this and I bang my head on the desk. Not upset at Tsyr, it is just I am caught between...
> 
> Option A) I don't want to do anything wrong. I understand the store is trying to protect their sales, and good for them.




I sorta know where you're comming from (As a lot of people on this thread do, I suspect).

I hit A) and just stopped. I don't want to lower myself to doing crap like that to make use of a product I don't need. 

So I'll do without. 

But I'd like to point out that I'm not a hacker or anything. Security and encryption isn't even a hobby of mine (Other than a passing amusement at how quickly they get broken). 

All the knowledge I have of how poorly DRM encryption works comes from:

10 minutes of google searching regarding DRM encryption history and security reports

and

The fact that I have published (In the sense of composed and compiled, generaly for school projects, not for sale) .PDF documents before.

So no 'techy' knowledge was needed to know this.


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## Kaleon Moonshae (Jun 11, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> A weak evasion. Let's see: "People like me, who would ordinarily have GLADLY paid you for your product are forced, on principle to seek out pirated copies". You endorsed theft as being "forced on principle", and now you're saying it was just a metaphor.
> 
> 
> 
> Once again, we see that _you're_ the victim.




It also makes it a bit clear that you are doing your best to slap him, which is also somewhat childish. His comment may have been a bit extreme, but it did sum up the way a lot of people feel. Your retort, however, was unnec. and a bit confrontational, which is *also* unneeded in this forum. Please think on that while one person posting something unneeded is a hurdle, someone retorting to it and then getting a re-retort, ad nosium... is a brick wall.

Yes, I know in essence I just did what I complained about, but then Inever said I was perfect;P


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## Funksaw (Jun 11, 2004)

I'd like to point out a significant development in the other name that's been mentioned for the DRM - Apple.

They just released iTunes 4.6.  This "upgrade" stops playing of files that have used "Hymn" - a way to strip the DRM off of iTunes files so that they can be played elsewhere, or on Linux, or whatever.  Unlike the AAC>CD>AAC workaround, it's lossless DRM removal, and many people used it for both legit and illegal reasons - but mostly legit.  Why?  For one, Hymn wouldn't work with a file that you hadn't bought yourself.  Second, Hymn removed ONLY the DRM, NOT the "watermarking" on the file.  

The new iTunes 4.6 does not make a distinction between "legitimate" and "illegitimate" workarounds for the DRM.  It seems to work by checking the files for the iTunes watermarks that were not stripped out by Hymn.  

Of course, within minutes, a "difficult" workaround for the 4.6 DRM scheme (involving hex-editing) was invented and is being used, and of course, the next version of Hymn will probably fix it as well, stripping out watermarks, which no one really had a problem with UNTIL they were used for DRM purposes.  This makes Hymn MORE likely to be used as a "pirate" tool, instead of a "fair use" tool.  

Some more iTunes history: Previously, people could share iTunes streaming audio over the internet like they could with network - it was built into the application itself as a feature.  Then someone invented a way to download the files and save them, which prompted iTunes to release a new version with removed that feature - new software came to put it back in.  

What does this show us about DRM?

1) Just because some say "If you don't like it, you can always crack it" today, that doesn't mean it's going to hold true tomorrow, as companies will make it their business to plug such holes as soon as viable.  (Therefore, the "just buy it and crack it" argument is not valid.)  

2) Just as companies will make it their business to plug such holes as soon as viable, hackers will make it their business to find more holes.


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## Funksaw (Jun 11, 2004)

Oh.  Earlier today, I went to Dragon's Lair (my FLGS which is quite famous in Austin for good service great selection, and not looking like a typically "boys-only" android-dungeon clone.) I told them that there was a boycott, that I was particpating in it, that this wasn't a remark on them, I told them why, I told them that I would continue to purchase comics and other games not part of the boycott there whenever possible in a "buycott" but that there was a boycott on and suggested that they call up White Wolf as a retailer and tell them that customers weren't buying products because of this business move. 

I suggest everyone here serious about the boycott do the same.  Don't be obnoxious or pushy - chances are your local retailer doesn't even KNOW about DTRPG.  Just explain why you'd like to purchase products but can't, and let them know what they can do to help get back more business.


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## WizarDru (Jun 11, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> I told them that there was a boycott, that I was particpating in it, that this wasn't a remark on them, I told them why, I told them that I would continue to purchase comics and other games not part of the boycott there whenever possible in a "buycott" but that there was a boycott on and suggested that they call up White Wolf as a retailer and tell them that customers weren't buying products because of this business move.



 So you're advocating not purchasing material from these publishers in any form? I was under the impression that some folks were planning on avoiding purchasing PDFs through DRPG, not boycotting any publisher working with them. That seems terribly counter-productive to me, and not likely to generate the results you hope that it will.

 Writing letters of intent will be a much more effective tool for change than that. How is Monte to tell if Book of Iron Might is failing due to his stance on DRM PDFs, his distrubution channels or due to people just not liking the content? Back catalog sales aren't going to be indicative, unless the whole product line suffers...and driving said publishers out of business seems self-defeating, as well.  Further, I don't think that complaining to a retailer who is completely disconnected with the PDF method...and who _is actively competing against it_ is a productive way to instigate change, either.

 My complaint is with the changes to the PDF distribution method, not with the content or the publisher. PDFs, to me, are useful for their portability and their ability to have material cut and pasted out of them. DRM removes the two greatest strengths he format has, and publishers need to realize that if you make the format useless to me, I won't buy it.


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## Tsyr (Jun 11, 2004)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> So you're advocating not purchasing material from these publishers in any form? I was under the impression that some folks were planning on avoiding purchasing PDFs through DRPG, not boycotting any publisher working with them. That seems terribly counter-productive to me, and not likely to generate the results you hope that it will.




It's a different school of thought, I suppose... One I'm debating going with myself, though I havn't made up my mind yet.

It's probably more for people who disagree with DRM on a deeper level than just "But its annoying". I detest DRM so badly that honestly, I do have to consider if I want to give money in any form to a company that uses it.

It's the same logic that has resulted in a ton of people (myself included) not buying CDs lately, at least not from the major labels are are involved in the crap going on regarding them right now. 

I have not yet made up my mind, mind you. Some of my favorite companies are on that list. But I am considering it.



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> Writing letters of intent will be a much more effective tool for change than that. How is Monte to tell if Book of Iron Might is failing due to his stance on DRM PDFs, his distrubution channels or due to people just not liking the content? Back catalog sales aren't going to be indicative, unless the whole product line suffers...and driving said publishers out of business seems self-defeating, as well.  Further, I don't think that complaining to a retailer who is completely disconnected with the PDF method...and who _is actively competing against it_ is a productive way to instigate change, either..




Well, according to the stated intent of DTRPG, there is theoreticly *not* competition between them and FLGS... And at their prices, I kinda-sorta have to agree. 

That being said, if Monte's sales take a plumet immedietly after embracing DRM encryption, well, Monte's a smart guy.


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## PetriWessman (Jun 11, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> It's the same logic that has resulted in a ton of people (myself included) not buying CDs lately, at least not from the major labels are are involved in the crap going on regarding them right now.




Yeah, same here. The whole DRM thing is a lot more than just "it's a hassle", it's a huge issue that connects to the slow erosion of customer rights over the last years. It boils down to companies not really wanting to sell you copies of whatever they are selling and instead wanting to sell you some sort of "license" or "subscription". Suddenly you don't have a lot of rights you're used to having and which the law gives you (since you don't actually own the copy, you kinda-sort lease limited rights to use a copy), and suddenly companies can change how something works (or if it works at all) years after you have bought that something. Naturally, with no guarantee of anything you buy actually being usable 5 years down the road.

Companies love that, they get all the benefits. Customers loathe it. It may work when you have a monopoly and are offering something that a lot of people need. It starts to break down when customers have a choice and when you're selling luxury items to a small, niche market. *Usually* in markets like that, Rule #1 is "keep the customers happy and give them what they want".

I have rpg books on my shelf that are over 20 years old. They work fine. I don't have to phone Mr. Gygax every time I want to read the books at a new location. I can sell them if I want to.

What kind of software do you think you'll be using in 20 years time? What kind of operating system? What kind of a guarantee do you have that the DRM'ed books will stay usable even 5 years, let alone 20? Adobe may go out of business next year. DTRPG will hopefully go out of business a lot sooner. What then? There's a very, very real danger of you ending up with a big "bookshelf" that you've paid a lot of money for and that you no longer have access to. When I buy a book, I think of it as a long-term thing.

*That* is why this whole thing is such a big deal for people. It's part of a much bigger picture.

And no, I haven't bought many CDs lately either, because a lot of them have "copy-protection" crap on them which is just as useless in deterring pirates as the Adobe DRM is, and the cause of just as many technical problems as the Adobe DRM is. So far I've gotten pirate copies of, hmm, probably 8 cds that I would have bought if they had been available as normal CD copies. They weren't, so I said "f*ck this" and saved the money. Was very easy too, since my sympathy for the (big) music business is currently pretty close to zero. My sympathy for the rpg business is still pretty high, I want these guys to make money (if the big music companies go bankrupt I'll hold a party and dance on the graves). And no, I'm not a pirate as such, I own 600+ Cds. I just absolutely will not support companies who cross a certain line.

All this will go away. If the RIAA with its millions upon millions of dollars hasn't managed to make a dent in the piracy scene (other than drive people to it), there's no hope in hell a few penny-ante rpg publishers have the resources to do it (no offense to said publishers, but they aren't even near the same leagues as the music and movie industries).

It's just a pity that during the time it takes for these dinosaurs to realize they have to evolve or die, we'll have to put up with crap like Adobe DRM, "copy-protected 'CDs'", and other bright ideas.



			
				Tsyr said:
			
		

> That being said, if Monte's sales take a plumet immedietly after embracing DRM encryption, well, Monte's a smart guy.




Unless he's locked into an exclusive multiyear contract with DTRPG, which by some accounts may be the case. In which case... I hope he either has lots of cash stored away, or some kind of exit clause in the contract.

Of course, we could all be wrong. Customers may actually love DTRGP, and money may very well be pouring into Monte's bank account like the Niagara Falls. In which case... someone, please wake me up. Please? :}


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## tm80401 (Jun 11, 2004)

All this being said, if you want to have an impact on this....write a letter.

A real letter.  With a stamp sent through snail-mail.

Companies generally pay much more attention to actual letters than e-mail.

If you have chosen not to do business with them until they stop supporting a company that uses this type (or any type) of DRM, let them know that.

If you have chosen not to purchase their PDF products because of this type of DRM, let them know that.

If you support their choice and have no problems with the direction they have chosen, let them know that.  

Just let them know.  

Send a concise, non-ranting letter to the company explaining your decision, what, if any, your objections are, and what it would take to get your business back if you have chosen not to support them any longer.

Don't whine, scream, threaten, accuse, rant, or otherwise insult them.  Remember, you are actually trying to get them to change to doing what you want.

I, personally, hope that any kind of DRM that collects data on the users goes down the tubes faster than the Pentagon's Total Information Awareness project did when word of it got out.

You may not.

Let the companies know.  Both with your words and with your wallet.


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## Thanatos (Jun 11, 2004)

I have put in alot of thought on it and kept up with various threads on the subject.

Myself, I will not buy any product (DRM-PDF or print) from a company that supports DRM technology use. Basically, any from that list, + or - any modifications that are made to it.

Wizdru makes a valid point about letters of intent and that it will sully the waters and make it tougher for a publisher to know why they are seeing decreased sales.

I read somewhere else in this thread that targeted boycotts don't tend to be as effective as total boycotts and I find myself in more agreeance with that.

My rationalization is this: A targeted boycott is akin to going into a resturant and refusing to order a tuna sandwhich because it isn't dolphin safe, while telling everyone this. Resturant still gets a chunk of your money and won't necessairly care whether you order the tuna sandwhich or not. A total boycott would be standing outside with a sign letting everyone know about the tuna sandwhich, which may turn customers way and hurt the resturants bottom line. Drop the tuna sandwhich off the menu and those cutomsters holding the signs drop them and come in for lunch.

I don't know if that is a good analogy...but its what worked for me. All these threads across so many forums show visible, public intent and many of the emails sent along with these threads should provide any company with enough information to make at least a somewhat accurate analyzation of why sales may drop on their products.

And if a company drops this DRM thing, I'll be happy to buy products from them again. Nothing personal and no grudge. DRM isn't something I just stand against on principle, I am also one of those who has multiple computers/devices and won't be able to use a DRM encrypted product on some of them.

I was a bit angry in an earlier post or two, but it was mostly shock over this whole thing and I apologize for hasty posts.

I also want to think all those posters who have posted bits of copyright law and DCMA and such...and people like Wizdru, who make good points, even if I don't agree. You've all been enlightening. Thanks.


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## hexgrid (Jun 11, 2004)

PetriWessman said:
			
		

> What kind of software do you think you'll be using in 20 years time? What kind of operating system? What kind of a guarantee do you have that the DRM'ed books will stay usable even 5 years, let alone 20? Adobe may go out of business next year. DTRPG will hopefully go out of business a lot sooner. What then? There's a very, very real danger of you ending up with a big "bookshelf" that you've paid a lot of money for and that you no longer have access to. When I buy a book, I think of it as a long-term thing.




hmm....

But if you follow that logic, you should never purchase any computer software, ever. Or any sort of technological device.

It's interesting. We've so embraced our role as consumers that we speak of "customer rights" with the same fervor others might reserve for speaking of human or civil rights.


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## Henry (Jun 11, 2004)

tm80401 said:
			
		

> All this being said, if you want to have an impact on this....write a letter.
> 
> A real letter.  With a stamp sent through snail-mail.




That I can wholly get behind.  If someone is upset about an issue, companies take Written Correspondence more seriously than E-mail - mainly because it involves more effort! Someone once told me that "One written letter is worth ten E-mails." I can understand why.


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## johnsemlak (Jun 11, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> That I can wholly get behind.  If someone is upset about an issue, companies take Written Correspondence more seriously than E-mail - mainly because it involves more effort! Someone once told me that "One written letter is worth ten E-mails." I can understand why.



 I'd bet is more like letter (signed and personalized) is worth 100 emails, but that's speculation.

And worth 250 posts on a messageboard.


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## PetriWessman (Jun 11, 2004)

hexgrid said:
			
		

> hmm....
> 
> But if you follow that logic, you should never purchase any computer software, ever. Or any sort of technological device.




True. But take software, it's intimately tied to a certain technology and (often) hardware, so it's natural that it has a lifetime that is tied to the platform it's running on.

For hardware devices, they don't flat out *stop working* at some point (barring normal wear and tear), or change the way they are working because the company that you bought it from changed their business strategy. Sure, in some cases you may make a mistake and buy into a technology that proves to be a dud, leaving you with a big expensive paperweight. There's a reason people usually refer to those purchases as "mistakes", and are pretty wary of new, unproven stuff. 

For data, expectations are different. I expect my music collection to stay with me pretty much forever, since I can freely back up the CDs or maybe even switch them to another format when / if that becomes standard. Printed books do break down at some point, true, but like I said normal printed books have a very long lifetime, if stored properly.

Everything wears down and breaks given enough time. The important point here is that the DRM is imposing an artificial obsolescense to my books, which may slam shut in one year or may last for 20. I have no way of knowing, and have no reason to trust the companies since they explicitly have a "something doesn't work? Sorry, you have to buy a new copy" policy. It's in their *direct* *financial* *interest* to force me to buy a new copy at some point.

It's as if my books were written in a magic ink, which might fade away at a random date (in this case, remote-controllable by the bookstore).

Looking at history for the last 10 years or so, this sort of thing has happened *a lot*. "You have stuff in Format X? Sorry, we don't support that anymore. Please buy a new copy in Format Z."



			
				hexgrid said:
			
		

> It's interesting. We've so embraced our role as consumers that we speak of "customer rights" with the same fervor others might reserve for speaking of human or civil rights.




It's a good thing that we live in a society where we can concentrate on things like these, instead of "will the secret police come for me tonight?" or "where will I get food?".

However, even though IP rights issues are less important than human rights, that doesn't make them not important - any more than the fact that "hey, we don't have slavery anymore and black people can actually vote!" is relevant to the issue of equal rights and the stamping out of racism. Society evolves, and each point in time has a set of "important issues" that apply to that society at that point in time. In my view, IP rights (DRM, software patents, the whole notion of copyright, etc) is currently one of those big issues.


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## RCanning (Jun 11, 2004)

hexgrid said:
			
		

> But if you follow that logic, you should never purchase any computer software, ever. Or any sort of technological device.
> 
> It's interesting. We've so embraced our role as consumers that we speak of "customer rights" with the same fervor others might reserve for speaking of human or civil rights.




There is a difference.

How would you feel if you went to your bookshelf, picked up a copy of a book you bought 2 years ago, and found all the pages blank? Would you accept that you had read it once or twice, had therefore got what you paid for, and go and buy it again?

When you purchase software, you can keep using it. My grandmother has my computer that I was using back in 1990. She runs DOS 5.1, and Word Perfect. She types her letters and prints them and sends them off. She plays solitaire. She uses Lotus 123. It works for her still.

Do some study on planned obsolescence. Companies started using it majorly in the 40s and 50s to cause people to have to keep upgrading. It had nothing to do with the fact that the new product is better, it has to do with keeping the people who make the products in jobs buy getting people to purchase the new version of the product; this has generally applied to things that are mechanical and wear out. Not any more.

Now they can put planned obsolesence into books and music as well. You purchase a text book for your eldest child, and when your next youngest needs exactly the same textbook 2 years later, you can't let him use it; because the book you purchased has expired and you can't pass it on.

This is the danger with DRM. The fact that the distributor can change how much access you have to the document after you have already purchased it. If you read up on Adobe's Product Specs, you will find there is nothing stopping DTRPG setting their server to shut down all the DRM pdfs that are out there. The next time you open it while you are connected to the internet; the file won't open. I am not saying they WILL do this, but they CAN do this.

You purchase "The Book of Everything" in Sept 2004. In Dec 2005 they release "The Book of Everything: Plus a bit more". There is nothing stopping them from disabling all copies of "The Book of Everything" so that you are forced to upgrade. Sure you will complain, and refuse to purchase the new product; but by then it is too late, you have already lost the book you paid for. Again, I am not saying they WILL do this (I seriously doubt it), but they CAN.

I am just terrorfied by the concept of companies being able to decide when and if literature becomes obsolete... Heck, I just realised. Say you purchase a product which becomes controversial, and someone in a government office somewhere decides that the publication should not be out there. They can turn your book off, without your permission. This is a wonderful method to control information, because someone else can decide what books you are allowed to hang on to. It is like the police coming into your house, looking through your bookshelf, and taking away anything they thing you should not have.

I am scaring myself. I am going to go to bed.

Richard Canning

*Update:* It scares me that PetriWessman and I both had the same responce thoughts at the same time. Snap.


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## Psion (Jun 11, 2004)

I hate to interrupt the philosophical debate, but here's an FYI I am trying to distribute to all the appropriate threads.

Contrary to what Steve Wieck and the DTRPG "response to common misconceptions" link has stated, there is a 6 machine registration limit through adobe, albeit there is some provision to reset machines through customer service. The DTRPG "common misconceptions page" has been updated with the following passage:



> Note that you can only have 6 computers activated at any one time; however, the following is from Adobe Support: "If you have reformatted your hard drive or you have a new computer, you can call Customer Service at 800-272-3623 to get your activation reset. Press 1 for sales." We have used this number to reset activations with no difficulty.


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## Dinkeldog (Jun 11, 2004)

Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs.  We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly.  These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks.  If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.


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## Funksaw (Jun 11, 2004)

I'd suggest mailing the vendors - White Wolf certainly isn't responsive to actual letters.


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## Tsyr (Jun 11, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs.  We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly.  These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks.  If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.




And most people aren't saying that Monte is going to throw a hissy fit and shut down all his PDFs or anything.

DTRPG is an unproven entity, however.


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## tm80401 (Jun 11, 2004)

Funksaw said:
			
		

> I'd suggest mailing the vendors - White Wolf certainly isn't responsive to actual letters.





When I said write a letter, I meant to the publishers.

All of them.  You can use the same letter if you write it properly.

And to DTRPG.  This would be a different letter, obviously.


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## PetriWessman (Jun 11, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs.  We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly.  These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks.  If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.




Oh, I agree with you. But that's not the point.

I can and do trust people. I usually do not trust companies. Companies are amoral creatures that mimic human behaviour when they are young and small, but become less and less human and more likely to stab you in the back the larger they grow. At some point they must be put out of their misery, or split into smaller creatures 

Companies change ownership, business plans and plain go out of business. Happens nearly every day. While I may believe that everyone in this equation is a "good guy" right now, I have zero guarantees about 5 years from now. Who owns DTRPG (or Adobe) then? What are their practices? Are they still people I could trust? How do I know? I need to know, since they have total control over how I can use my library of books.

If I buy a printed book, I stop worrying about stuff like that the moment I pay for the book. After that it's mine, and the bookstore can change ownership, go out of business or get Darth Vader as the new store manager without affecting me and my book in any way.

If I buy a DRM "book", I'm shackled to the provider company for as long as I want to use the book. I have *no* guarantees that the people running the show 10 years from now will want to allow me to access my books anymore. They have full capability to changing the terms at any point, and there's nothing I can do about it.

After I pay for the book, the company should have absolutely no say over what I do with it. Otherwise we get lots of pretty scary scenarios, when we look at the long term.

Again, I'm not saying the people in charge right now are bad guys. But what about the future? I should not need to be worried about that when I buy a book, and I refuse to be. So I'll never buy from DTRPG.

If they switch to a non-intrusive scheme that keeps their control where it belongs (i.e. out of my life), watermarking or some other valid IP protection scheme, I'll gladly become their customer. They have a nice catalog. But for reasons outlined above and in previous posts, they will never get my business as long as the current DRM is in place.


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## Staffan (Jun 11, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I hate to interrupt the philosophical debate, but here's an FYI I am trying to distribute to all the appropriate threads.
> 
> Contrary to what Steve Wieck and the DTRPG "response to common misconceptions" link has stated, there is a 6 machine registration limit through adobe, albeit there is some provision to reset machines through customer service. The DTRPG "common misconceptions page" has been updated with the following passage:
> 
> ...



Oh right. So now I might have to make frelling *international* phone calls to read my books at some point in the future? Yet another reason not to touch this (other than for free stuff which is, after all, free) with a 10' pole.


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## Mythmere (Jun 11, 2004)

As an old fogey, I was just getting to the point where I might have paid money for a pdf (which I consider to be just shy of a rip-off in the first place, compared to print).  But I'd have to update my adobe.  I won't do that until it doesn't work anymore.  So when I finally buy a pdf, it will be from RPGnow, not from a company that requires me to mess around with my computer's existing software, even if the software is free.

Also, the new company's website didn't adjust to the size of my screen.  That spooks me, when a tech company's stuff doesn't work properly.


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## Brown Jenkin (Jun 11, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs.  We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly.  These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks.  If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.




And yet many people feel they have been hurt nonetheless. A couple of weeks ago I would have agreed that these were good guys who would never do anything to hurt PDF customers and cared about the hobby more than anything else. Now with them embracing DRM I am no longer quite so sure. This is especially true for Malhavoc which built a reputation of caring for its customers and producing high quality PDFs. I have not given up all hope yet but the longer they continue to use DRM the less I feel that they care about the customer since I see DRM as being anti-consumer (No need to reiterate the measons already expressed). 

And has been pointed out who knows who will be in charge of things in a couple of years anyway. When WotC bought D&D they saved it and improved it and like many others thought wow what a great and freindly company. Then 2 years later Ha$bro buys it and everyone I felt that was responsible for rescuing D&D moved on to other ventures and I no longer feel that D&D is run for and by gamers like I did before. Whose to say Mike Mearls or Monte Cook will even be around it 2 years and that they won't sell Malhavoc for a large sum of money and set up yet another great venture. If I buy a DRM PDF who is to say that these same freindly people will be around to guarntee that the DRM prooducts they sold won't be cut off by the new owners.


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## RCanning (Jun 12, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Petri and RCanning, I think with your obsolescence arguments that you're forgetting the people behind the RPGs.  We all know Monte, Fiery James and MikeMearls, for example, to some extent because they post here at least semi-regularly.  These aren't the type of people that regularly go out of their way to hurt people because they can or to make a couple extra bucks.  If this were an issue involving major corporations I might have different concerns, but within the RPG community, I've got very, very few.




I agree with you, I don't think the RPG industry is one where this is going to be something we have to worry about right now. But I don't know what is going to happen in the future, if I did, I would be a richer.

I did a lot of reading on Planned Obsolescence last night before going to bed. I had always only been for mechanical things, not for things like books. However, now, through the use of eBooks it is starting to happen.

Technology workers are already talking about develloping a book of hundreds of  LCD screens, thin as paper, so that you can set it to work like a book, but load up the book you want. Think about your entire RPG library in one small book, where you can write on the pages, and then undo the writing later (and then bring it up again), and have thousands of books with you all the time, able to thumb through them like print. This is what they are working on.

The first time I heard this I though "Wow, that is going to be great." But now I know that they will use DRM for all of this. By the time it is there, internet connections and wireless will be the norm, so when they say "you have to be online for the book to load" people will go "That is annoying" but they will live with it. After all, it won't really effect them.

DRM = Digital Rights Management. They are boldly stating that they are going to control your Digital Rights, they are not letting you manage what you have bought, it will be completely their decision as to how it can be used, and when, and by whom, and for how long. That is what management is all about.

Large publishers (I am not talking RPG here - but more academic textbooks and encyclopedia publishers) must be frothing at the mouth about the concept of being able to expire their books when a new version comes out. Companies like Microsoft are already designing an expiration date into their OSes, where you have to pay to upgrade, or stop using all of your products. They are also dealing with hardware vendors so that you can only used approved and live software, so that you are forced to upgrade again.

With all of this it will be so simple to go to your bookshelf one day and find that some of your books are blank, and you are forced to purchase a new version.

This is something I am writing up for submission to a few people, not just about RPG (in fact I probably wont mention RPGs in the piece at all), but it will be something I am going to worry about.

Anyway, I have been awake about 10 minutes, and need a shower.

Richard Canning


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## Obryn (Jun 12, 2004)

Tsyr said:
			
		

> That's actually not strictly true. It depends entierly on what type of virtual printer you are using and how you have it configured. Hypotheticly, it can be done so well that the only loss is the loss of bookmarks.




It's more than hypothetical, I guarantee you, so long as it's done properly.  Having done it myself, I can tell you the only ill effect is bloating the file size.  Which a full version of Acrobat 6 can recompress, btw.  It worked on all 3 freebies.  And all it requires is 2 freeware utilities and the editing of 3 characters of a plain-text file in Notepad.

Because of this crack, ironically enough, I can purchase PDFs from DTRPG in pretty clear conscience.  It also (IANAL) should fall under fair use, even with the DMCA, so long as it's done only for my personal non-commercial use.  Namely, allowing me to read the darn things on Acrobat 5.0 at work.  I'm not releasing them to anyone else; this would violate fair use and potentially deny companies I respect the income they deserve.

-O


----------



## Dark Psion (Jun 12, 2004)

Well, I did a test today.

Last night I burned the free Gamma World and Monte's Dragon pdf. from Drive thru RPG as well as  several Ronin Arts pdfs from RPGNow! and I took the CD to work today.

We have two computers, One new, WindowsXP, Acrobat 6, but is not conected to the internet.

RPGNow!: Loaded fine and full access
DtRPG: No access, nothing.

The other computer is older, Windows98, Acrobat 5 (6 will not set up) with internet access.

RPGNow!: Loaded fine and full access
DtRPG: No access, nothing.

So with DtRPG, I don't know if I will be able to access what I purchase on whatever computer I wish to use. I recently got a new computer, if my old pdfs were DRM, would I be able to access them?

I also called a Kinkos in OKC and asked about printing and binding a pdf file with DRM. They said if they can open it, they will print it, but they can't access it, they will do no more, they will not crack it for you. 

I got the feeling that he had been asked that question a few too many times  .


So that settles it for me. 

If Hyperconsiousness is only available as a DRM pdf. file, I will pass. What if it is the best pdf ever? Well, I might just look into "other" ways of getting it. If you asked me that last week, I would never have even considered doing that because it would be too much of a hassle, but now the hassle line has shifted to the other side of the pdf.


----------



## Wasgo (Jun 12, 2004)

Obryn said:
			
		

> It's more than hypothetical, I guarantee you, so long as it's done properly.  Having done it myself, I can tell you the only ill effect is bloating the file size.  Which a full version of Acrobat 6 can recompress, btw.  It worked on all 3 freebies.  And all it requires is 2 freeware utilities and the editing of 3 characters of a plain-text file in Notepad.
> 
> Because of this crack, ironically enough, I can purchase PDFs from DTRPG in pretty clear conscience.  It also (IANAL) should fall under fair use, even with the DMCA, so long as it's done only for my personal non-commercial use.  Namely, allowing me to read the darn things on Acrobat 5.0 at work.  I'm not releasing them to anyone else; this would violate fair use and potentially deny companies I respect the income they deserve.
> 
> -O




Just to be clear, violating the DMCA for any reason does not fall under fair use. Mentioning how you circumvented it (regardless of how simple) is not legal under the DMCA. The DMCA is one of the most restrictive, corporate laws to ever entwine its way into the copyright act. Learn it and loathe it.


----------



## JohnRTroy (Jun 12, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> Not true. In Trademark cases it is important to vigorously defend your trademark. I would bet that Snoopy and Woodstock are trademarked.




They are trademarked, but a point to be made, comic strip characters apparently enjoy the ability to actually be copyrightable--or at least the physical representation (drawing) of them.  Charlie Brown for instance is Copyright 1950, while Woodstock is Copyright 1971--they don't name them, but if you read old Peanuts copyright statements on books UFS made sure to indicate the copyright date of each character or set of them.

http://www.publaw.com/graphical.html

So if you draw a bird that looks suspiciously like Woodstock, even if you don't use the name, you are violating copyright, not trademark.   (Or you are violating both in certain cases).


----------



## Obryn (Jun 12, 2004)

Wasgo said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, violating the DMCA for any reason does not fall under fair use. Mentioning how you circumvented it (regardless of how simple) is not legal under the DMCA. The DMCA is one of the most restrictive, corporate laws to ever entwine its way into the copyright act. Learn it and loathe it.



I'd say your analysis is flawed, which is why programs such as DVDShrink, CladDVD, and Alcohol120% legally exist in the U.S.; and why websites such as gamecopyworld are able to operate legally.

All of them have numerous disclaimers regarding only using the utilities on items you personally own, and that it cannot be for commercial gain.

An amateur rpg.net analysis of the legalities quotes some of the relevant sections verbatim.

Don't get me wrong - I nevertheless think the DMCA is a horrible piece of legislation.

-O


----------



## Dinkeldog (Jun 12, 2004)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> And yet many people feel they have been hurt nonetheless.




I would suggest to many people that they reassess their initial feelings toward the whole thing and consider whether there is room to give in the argument.  My feeling (and I can play the computer professional as well as anyone, should I choose), is that this is much ado over very little to make ado over.  I'm not seeing any arguments that alter that opinion.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 12, 2004)

tburdett said:
			
		

> Thanks to Cergorach I now know for a fact that, yes, it is possible to remove the DRM.  It takes a right click, [stuff removed due to DCMA concerns, well, not removed as I wasn't stupid enough to put it here in the first place, but you get the idea], and then you have a .pdf file with no DRM at all.




  I have seen this, I know that it _can_ be done, but that is not the same as saying that it will have *no* impact.  Yes, there are a number of people saying that this is *making* them steal pdf's, but I, for one, have some doubt whether or not this is anything but a rationalization for what they were going to do anyway.


----------



## Trainz (Jun 12, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> I would suggest to many people that they reassess their initial feelings toward the whole thing and consider whether there is room to give in the argument. My feeling (and I can play the computer professional as well as anyone, should I choose), is that this is much ado over very little to make ado over. I'm not seeing any arguments that alter that opinion.



Well, there have been some POSSIBLE valid arguments. More than one person in this very thread have been testing the thing, and have POSSIBLY proved it's inefficiency under varying circumstances (for one, Dark Psion's analysis in this very page above). I don't agree with your stance that there's no opinion altering argument.

Mind you, I'm not a big consumer of PDF's (I've only bought one so far), so this will not really affect me personally, but some complaints (not ALL, as some are irrelevant) do feel very valid.

Is it much ado about nothing ? Only time will tell...


----------



## Power_Word_Wedgie (Jun 12, 2004)

francisca said:
			
		

> Time will tell.  Or maybe it won't.




Personally, though I argued some points for the change, really I believe this as well.  Only time will tell.  (Remember boys and girls that if there is anything worth learning, it was probably in the lyrics to an _Asia_ song ...  ) 

We'll see how everything has shaken out three months from now.  Until then, I really would be just speculating.


----------



## Wasgo (Jun 12, 2004)

Obryn said:
			
		

> I'd say your analysis is flawed, which is why programs such as DVDShrink, CladDVD, and Alcohol120% legally exist in the U.S.; and why websites such as gamecopyworld are able to operate legally.




They don't legally operate...at least not exactly.

http://www.eff.org/IP/DMCA/MGM_v_321Studios/20040220_eff_pr.php

I believe this is the most recent decision on the matter, though there might be newer in the past few months. Basically, writing to a dvd is legal, copying one isn't. This is incredibly unfortunete considering the dvd decryption itself it no longer protected.

http://www.eff.org/IP/Video/DVDCCA_case/20040122_eff_pr.php

Oh, and gamecopyworld isn't legal. It's merely owned outside the U.S. The owner info is:

Administrative Contact:
Praag, George webmaster@bucinacorp.com
van Engelenweg 21a
Willemstad - Curacao,
AN

Just a simple rule of thumb, all legal disclaimers by sites that seem to offer questionable services are utter trash.


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## Psion (Jun 12, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> I have seen this, I know that it _can_ be done, but that is not the same as saying that it will have *no* impact.  Yes, there are a number of people saying that this is *making* them steal pdf's, but I, for one, have some doubt whether or not this is anything but a rationalization for what they were going to do anyway.




I don't think it is a matter of *rationalization* so much as *motivation*. There are people who are perfectly happy buying PDFs that they are confident will be around for years to come and will work on their systems. You take away that option, they will seek other options.

I suspect that those who blatantly steal PDFs aren't much affected. I also believe that some who have ethical concerns but beleive that DRM is ethically questionable and impractical but still beleive that the author deserves compensation may crack their own fairly purchased PDFs.


----------



## maddman75 (Jun 12, 2004)

Personally, if there's anything that I decide I "must have", I plan on getting a pirate copy and paypalling the asking price to the publisher, along with a snarky little note saying what I've done.


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## BryonD (Jun 12, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> My feeling (and I can play the computer professional as well as anyone, should I choose), is that this is much ado over very little to make ado over.  I'm not seeing any arguments that alter that opinion.




RPG pdfs really don't have much chance to be anything more than a very small teacup.  So you are certainly correct.

However, this is a really big tempest if this teacup is important to you.


----------



## BryonD (Jun 12, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> I have seen this, I know that it _can_ be done, but that is not the same as saying that it will have *no* impact.




So this generalization doesn't count because of some exceptions,  but......



> Yes, there are a number of people saying that this is *making* them steal pdf's, but I, for one, have some doubt whether or not this is anything but a rationalization for what they were going to do anyway.




.... the exceptions don't count because of your generaliztion.


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## Dr. Harry (Jun 12, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> I have seen this, I know that it can be done, but that is not the same as saying that it will have no impact.






			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> So this generalization doesn't count because of some exceptions,  but......




  This is not a generalization.  This is a statement that simply saying that DRM can be broken is not the same as saying that it will automatically lead to more piracy, or that it will not reduce casual piracy.  

   It seems to be reducing casual use to a greater or lesser degree, as even some posters who are not "they are forcing me to steal stuff" or "I'm boycotting the whole company for getting into the pdf market in a way I don't like" people are not getting DRM'ed pdfs due to features of the system.

  Mere personal attacks do not constitute support for an opposing position to my first paragraph.



			
				Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Yes, there are a number of people saying that this is *making* them steal pdf's, but I, for one, have some doubt whether or not this is anything but a rationalization for what they were going to do anyway.






			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> .... the exceptions don't count because of your generaliztion.




  This, at least, is a statement of personal opinion, but I made no attempt to hide that or pass it off as something else.  Since you didn't actually respond to anything, I see nothing to make me change that opinion.  The "I'd better change my tune or you'll be mean to me" approach is not very effective.

  Sigh.  If you're bound and determined to make a cheap attack, could you at least try and do it off of something I actually wrote?

    Just a thought.


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## BryonD (Jun 12, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> Sigh.  If you're bound and determined to make a cheap attack, could you at least try and do it off of something I actually wrote?
> 
> Just a thought.




That actually made me laugh.  
That is twice you've failed to keep track of the meaning of your own words.
That is sufficient in my book.
Bye, enjoy your reality.


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## Power_Word_Wedgie (Jun 12, 2004)

maddman75 said:
			
		

> Personally, if there's anything that I decide I "must have", I plan on getting a pirate copy and paypalling the asking price to the publisher, along with a snarky little note saying what I've done.




Seriously, I'm not sure you want to do this.  It is like if I wrote MicroSoft telling them that I bought Windows on the black market but here is the money for the license.  I'm not a layer, but I still think I would be in some serious legal trouble.

eidt:  I don't mean anything personal by my comments.  I just don't want to see anyone get in trouble.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 12, 2004)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> My feeling (and I can play the computer professional as well as anyone, should I choose), is that this is much ado over very little to make ado over.  I'm not seeing any arguments that alter that opinion.




Well, how's this for an argument - while this particular incident may not be particularly important in the Grand Scheme of Things, the issue as a whole is a rather important one.  Our society is still trying to figure out how to deal with the abilities that computers give us.  Finding a proper solution takes a lot of little scraps, pushing and pulling to see where the balance lies.  This is only one little skirmish in a much grander conflict.  But that doesn't make it meaningless.


----------



## Trainz (Jun 13, 2004)

Stop the personal attacks !

Gee guys, some of these posts feel like a darn IRC flamefest, only with proper punctuation.


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## Dr. Harry (Jun 13, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I don't think it is a matter of *rationalization* so much as *motivation*. There are people who are perfectly happy buying PDFs that they are confident will be around for years to come and will work on their systems. You take away that option, they will seek other options.




  A number of the postings on this have seemed to start from the assumption that they would _have_ to have the product.  I don't have any animosity towards the companies involved, but if I'm not able to use the format, then I won't get it.  



> I suspect that those who blatantly steal PDFs aren't much affected. I also believe that some who have ethical concerns but beleive that DRM is ethically questionable and impractical but still beleive that the author deserves compensation may crack their own fairly purchased PDFs.




  There may or may not be less of the casual passing around of pdf's.  I think the best hope is that once more companies have entered the market, a more workable format can be advanced.


----------



## PetriWessman (Jun 13, 2004)

Dr. Harry said:
			
		

> A number of the postings on this have seemed to start from the assumption that they would _have_ to have the product.  I don't have any animosity towards the companies involved, but if I'm not able to use the format, then I won't get it.




Same here. There's no real *need* to own any one gaming book.

*However*, making buying the honest version a bad deal lowers the barrier towards turning to piracy. I wouldn't do it myself, but I can easily see someone else saying "screw this" and turning to the pirate p2p channels, when they would normally have bought the book had it been sold in a proper format. And once you do that once, it's oh so easy to do it again.

At the moment, nobody in the world knows how piracy *really* affects sales. I personally suspect it doesn't make all that much difference, but arguments can and have been made for both extremes of the spectrum. We simply don't know.

We do know the ways in which a DRM PDF is inferior to a normal PDF. We do know that this will affect sales, to some extent.

What will the balance be? I suspect DTRPG will see it in their sales records in the months to come, and the publishers who previously sold PDFs through other outlets will have hard data to compare. If DRM really does help against piracy more than it stops sales, there should be a nice, steady rise in incoming revenue as the people who previously (supposedly) pirated the PDFs turn to buying them.

I would be very much suprised to see something like that, but hey, you never know. Malhavoc and others will know, in a few months.

That's the only hard data we will have on the situation, and on whether the DRM was a good business move.


----------



## Dr. Harry (Jun 13, 2004)

PetriWessman said:
			
		

> What will the balance be? I suspect DTRPG will see it in their sales records in the months to come, and the publishers who previously sold PDFs through other outlets will have hard data to compare. If DRM really does help against piracy more than it stops sales, there should be a nice, steady rise in incoming revenue as the people who previously (supposedly) pirated the PDFs turn to buying them.
> 
> I would be very much suprised to see something like that, but hey, you never know. Malhavoc and others will know, in a few months.
> 
> That's the only hard data we will have on the situation, and on whether the DRM was a good business move.




   I agree with your post.  My idea of the best case scenario to come out of all this is that new publishers enter the pdf field, and market pressures push them into developing a new system that can be used.  The larger companies will probably always want to use something, but I hope they find something better.


----------



## maddman75 (Jun 14, 2004)

Power_Word_Wedgie said:
			
		

> Seriously, I'm not sure you want to do this.  It is like if I wrote MicroSoft telling them that I bought Windows on the black market but here is the money for the license.  I'm not a layer, but I still think I would be in some serious legal trouble.
> 
> eidt:  I don't mean anything personal by my comments.  I just don't want to see anyone get in trouble.




Not really.  Its shady, but not illegal to download pirated materials.  What gets people after you is uploading, which I will not do with a PDF.

In any case I'd only be liable for the amount that they believe they have lost by my actions.  Which would be the asking price for the product, which I'd already given them.  Not to mention how much it would damage the company's reputation.

Its just a way to be a ******


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## C. Baize (Jun 17, 2004)

Found on Monte's Site:



Malhavoc Press

Malhavoc Now Offers eBooks in Two Formats

Fans of our electronic products will be interested and hopefully happy to note that Malhavoc Press electronic products are once again available through the White Wolf/Sword & Sorcery catalog in their original PDF form, in addition to our ebooks sold at DriveThruRPG.com.

We're still thrilled to be working with DriveThru and excited about the prospects of formerly print-only publishers offering their game products there in an electronic format. DriveThru offers a great way to bring both more publishers and more customers into the ebook arena.

But we've also seen that, as a publisher who has offered PDF products for three years, we've built up an audience that would like to see us also continue to use our traditional formats. As the leader in the electronic arena, we want to continue to meet the needs of our customers -- in fact, as always, we want to go beyond that and offer them new products that continue to surprise and innovate. Our upcoming books, including Children of the Rune, Beyond Countless Doorways, Mystic Secrets: The Lore of Word and Rune, and The Book of Iron Might, do just that. We want to make sure that the most customers possible have access to these great products. Further, looking to next year and beyond . . . well, we've got some big and exciting product line plans.

Which eBook Version Do I Want?

If Adobe Reader (6.0) ebooks are a convenient format for you, I encourage you to visit DriveThruRPG.com, where you'll find not only all of Malhavoc's books, but cool stuff from other quality publishers: Necromancer Games, Fantasy Flight, Chaosium, and a lot more. You won't find their offerings in electronic format anywhere else.

If PDFs that use older versions of Adobe Acrobat or Acrobat Reader or non-Adobe software are to your liking, you can find them in our catalog at swordsorcery.com. This is also the format you'll want if you are using Linux or older versions of the Mac OS (prior to 10.2.4).

Direct links to the appropriate pages on both sites can be found on our product pages at montecook.com or Malhavocpress.com.

And, as always, if you would rather own our products in printed form, everything will be available at your favorite local hobby or book retailer.


----------



## dcollins (Jun 17, 2004)

C. Baize said:
			
		

> We're still thrilled to be working with DriveThru and excited about the prospects of formerly print-only publishers offering their game products there in an electronic format. DriveThru offers a great way to bring both more publishers and more customers into the ebook arena.




Has Monte ever given a clear reason why _he_ has moved to DriveThru?

He's restated several times this notion that he's "thrilled to be working with DriveThru..." and that they will bring new publishers into PDFs. But why is that a compelling business case for him? Now I've gotten really curious exactly what benefit there is to _him_, who was already publishing PDFs profitably before.

It seems that one could speculate as to:
- DriveThru gives him a higher percentage of sales.
- He himself felt more secure with anti-copying measures on PDFs.
- He's contractually obligated through some prior association.
- Or, he's doing it to benefit the greater PDF industry (unlikely).

Seems kind of mysterious, and now I've gotten really curious. Anyone know someplace where he actually stated the reason for _his_ own move?


----------



## Henry (Jun 17, 2004)

dcollins said:
			
		

> It seems that one could speculate as to:
> - DriveThru gives him a higher percentage of sales.
> - He himself felt more secure with anti-copying measures on PDFs.
> - He's contractually obligated through some prior association.
> - Or, he's doing it to benefit the greater PDF industry (unlikely).




While I would speculate a mixture of #2 and #4 (and maybe even #1), #3 has already been said to be false by Monte and (I believe either Steve Weick or Clark P. from Necromancer). For one thing, WW (S&S) and Drive Thru are legally two separate companies, so any agreements would not be binding just because several people hold positions at both companies.


----------



## C. Baize (Jun 17, 2004)

Heh.... who cares? He's selling non-DRM PDFs again! 
When it's all boiled down.... that's really all I care about.
Well... okay...
That and that he keeps producing quality material...


----------



## BryonD (Jun 17, 2004)

Henry said:
			
		

> While I would speculate a mixture of #2 and #4 (and maybe even #1), #3 has already been said to be false by Monte and (I believe either Steve Weick or Clark P. from Necromancer). For one thing, WW (S&S) and Drive Thru are legally two separate companies, so any agreements would not be binding just because several people hold positions at both companies.




Honest question:
Can you suggest why he would not be going back to RPGnow?


----------



## Monte At Home (Jun 17, 2004)

dcollins said:
			
		

> Has Monte ever given a clear reason why _he_ has moved to DriveThru?




Yes, but it seemed to have got lost in all the noise. DriveThru is bringing all kinds of new publishers and new customers into the pdf market. That's good for me as a pdf seller. Simple as that.


----------



## dcollins (Jun 17, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> Yes, but it seemed to have got lost in all the noise. DriveThru is bringing all kinds of new publishers and new customers into the pdf market. That's good for me as a pdf seller. Simple as that.




Monte, thanks for your response.

I applaud your re-introduction of non-DRM'd PDFs, that's a huge assistance to us already buying PDFs. Any reason you're selling those at swordsorcery.com instead of RPGNow like before?


----------



## Monte At Home (Jun 17, 2004)

dcollins said:
			
		

> Monte, thanks for your response.
> 
> I applaud your re-introduction of non-DRM'd PDFs, that's a huge assistance to us already buying PDFs. Any reason you're selling those at swordsorcery.com instead of RPGNow like before?




The catalog at swordsorcery.com was always my primary source for selling pdfs. The majority of my sales were through that site, which was driven by links from our own website (actually, most of our sales through RPGNow were as well, but that's another matter). I won't be returning to RPGNow, and it actually has nothing to do with DriveThru, DRM or any of that stuff. It's not, however, a matter I feel right in discussing publicly. 

In any event, I'm glad the change has made people happy.


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## cats_claw (Jun 18, 2004)

Rl'Halsinor said:
			
		

> Hmm... you guys ought to visit the Necromancer Games General Discussion board and see the responses to Necro's decision to go the same route with their PDFs.  Full price and you get to use your own paper and ink to print them!  Talk about a deal...   :\




Hmm... I just bought tomb of abysthor, aberrations and morrick mansion for much less than I could find it on ebay.

Also, I have about 2 PCs that I need to read/print it from.  One at work and one at home.  I have no problem with the DRM, it really hasn't affected me at all.  How has it poorly affected those that have actually used it?

catslcaw


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## Dimwhit (Jun 18, 2004)

cats_claw said:
			
		

> How has it poorly affected those that have actually used it?
> 
> catslcaw




I suspect you won't get much of an answer from that questions. I would wager that 95% of the people moaning about DTRPG and DRM aren't even willing to give it a try.

Didn't bother me a bit.


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## C. Baize (Jun 18, 2004)

I purchased a DRM novel some time ago (2 years.... 3, possibly). I was about halfway through the novel when I backed everything up, and changed computers. 
The novel wouldn't open on the other computer. To read the rest of it, I would have to purchase it, again. 
I decided at that time to never purchase another DRMed PDF. 
Simple, really.


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## cats_claw (Jun 18, 2004)

C. Baize said:
			
		

> I purchased a DRM novel some time ago (2 years.... 3, possibly). I was about halfway through the novel when I backed everything up, and changed computers.
> The novel wouldn't open on the other computer. To read the rest of it, I would have to purchase it, again.
> I decided at that time to never purchase another DRMed PDF.
> Simple, really.




With Adobe 6.0 and their DRM, I can open my PDF on many different PCs, as long is the version of Adobe is activated.  And I know that in a pinch, I can contact DrivethruRPG and get it reinstated.  They have already done this with a PDF that I screwed up in the download.

No offense, but in comparing your experience with your 2 or 3 year old e-book,  I imagine that things have changed a bit with Adobe 6.0, DRM e-books and the way they are securing them for DriveThruRPG. 

catsclaw

EDIT:  spelling


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## dcollins (Jun 18, 2004)

Monte At Home said:
			
		

> The catalog at swordsorcery.com was always my primary source for selling pdfs. The majority of my sales were through that site, which was driven by links from our own website (actually, most of our sales through RPGNow were as well, but that's another matter). I won't be returning to RPGNow, and it actually has nothing to do with DriveThru, DRM or any of that stuff. It's not, however, a matter I feel right in discussing publicly.
> 
> In any event, I'm glad the change has made people happy.




Fair enough, that's very informative. Thank you.


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## Breakdaddy (Jun 18, 2004)

While I appreciate Monty's candor, and have long appreciated the quality of his PDF products, the fact that I am a linux user precludes me from being a customer of Malhavoc any longer. As a measure of protest, I also plan on passing all of their print products up in the future. This is not meant as a thumbing of my nose at Monte or Malhavoc, but simply as a matter of practicality. It's not a huge deal, linux users have been excluded from the DRM fad in the past. Pirates are going to get your material for free, but I can't even legitimately purchase and enjoy it because of the exclusivity of DRM. I also visited the drivethrurpg URL and found it quite slow and unresponsive. I would look in to that very seriously so that you don't lose your remaining customers. Nobody likes to wait (especially when they are trying to give you business!)

My .002, thanks for reading


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## resistor (Jun 18, 2004)

Breakdaddy said:
			
		

> While I appreciate Monty's candor, and have long appreciated the quality of his PDF products, the fact that I am a linux user precludes me from being a customer of Malhavoc any longer. As a measure of protest, I also plan on passing all of their print products up in the future. This is not meant as a thumbing of my nose at Monte or Malhavoc, but simply as a matter of practicality. It's not a huge deal, linux users have been excluded from the DRM fad in the past. Pirates are going to get your material for free, but I can't even legitimately purchase and enjoy it because of the exclusivity of DRM. I also visited the drivethrurpg URL and found it quite slow and unresponsive. I would look in to that very seriously so that you don't lose your remaining customers. Nobody likes to wait (especially when they are trying to give you business!)
> 
> My .002, thanks for reading



 Um, dude.  He just announced that he's also going to sell non-DRM'd PDFs too...


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## C. Baize (Jun 18, 2004)

Think what you want, Catsclaw. In the end it doesn't matter.
You asked why, I gave you a reason, now you're trying to tear holes in it... 
It's unnecessary. 
Some people have the fortitude to stick by decisions, some people waffle. 
Different strokes for different folks.


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## dcollins (Jun 18, 2004)

One more opinion on the DRM issue. Here's a link to a talk given just yesterday by Cory Doctorow of the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation), given to a gathering of Microsoft researchers, on the topic of DRM.

http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt

Summary:


> Here's what I'm here to convince you of:
> 1. That DRM systems don't work
> 2. That DRM systems are bad for society
> 3. That DRM systems are bad for business
> ...




Comment on ebooks (in part 4):


> The only really successful epublishing -- I mean, hundreds of thousands, millions of copies distributed and read -- is the bookwarez scene, where scanned-and-OCR'd books are distributed on the darknet. The only legit publishers with any success at epublishing are the ones whose books cross the Internet without technological fetter: publishers like Baen Books and my own, Tor, who are making some or all of their catalogs available in ASCII and HTML and PDF.
> 
> The hardware-dependent ebooks, the DRM use-and-copy-restricted ebooks, they're cratering. Sales measured in the tens, sometimes the hundreds. Science fiction is a niche business, but when you're selling copies by the ten, that's not even a business, it's a hobby.


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## Sir Elton (Jun 19, 2004)

dcollins said:
			
		

> One more opinion on the DRM issue. Here's a link to a talk given just yesterday by Cory Doctorow of the EFF (Electronic Frontier Foundation), given to a gathering of Microsoft researchers, on the topic of DRM.
> 
> http://craphound.com/msftdrm.txt



 Now that is an Eye Opener.


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## Emirikol (Jun 23, 2004)

Mmm.  Interesting.
jh


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