# Need WOTC Offical to deal with the half-elf pregen/Keep of Shadowfell before release.



## Kitirat (May 8, 2008)

Alright so I went to the store and saw KotS.  I'll give impressions in another post, however in this I am solely looking for a WOTC offical to address the half-elf issue.

4 of the 5 Pregens looked great.  Disliked that the paladin's LOH was reduced from 3 to 1 a day, but otherwise, very nicely done.

However the half-elf has NONE of its racial abilities except the following:
+2 Con and Cha.
+2 Insight + Diplomacy
+1 to allies for diplomacy if within 10ft.

Yes, that is it. No free feat, no additioanl class ability, no addition power as an encounter from another class, not even an extra trained skill, NOTHING EXTRA.  I emplore WOTC to address this and sometime before the offical release of KotS post on the site a revised cleric.  It looks bad for it not to be addressed and (for me personally) worse because I have 6 people playing the module who would like to see the new pregens and as old timers will cry fowl, spoiling the mood with this one thing ("damn it, do I have to be the low level cleric?  Ah crap it is a half elf and they are half as good as any other race!")

Please address quickly.

As another note, I hope you all are still going to post a 6th character as was said before, can we get a confirmation on this?

Thanks,
Ken













First thing I thought was WOW, this is easily the highest quality adventure I have ever seen.  Awesome.


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## Jack99 (May 8, 2008)

I agree with the OP - assuming the info is correct, it is unacceptable, and it should be fixed before the 20th of May.

Btw, if you guys (WoTC) are going to make an additional character, you might as well make a couple more, giving most groups more choices 

Cheers


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## Green Knight (May 8, 2008)

> Disliked that the paladin's LOH was reduced from 3 to 1 a day




Damn, that sucks.  So what was the Paladin's Wis and Cha? That might explain it, if it's tied to stats.


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## Cirex (May 8, 2008)

That LoH change seems a bit harsh, but maybe it's because the Pregen paladin had choosen the hospitaler path?

And the Half-elf thingy sounds like a serious overlook (I think it's said like that).

EDIT : Let me explain what I meant with hospitaler path. I mean he's taken the path that leads to the paragon path "hospitaler", be it with feats or whatever, a more healish kind of paladin.


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## Kitirat (May 8, 2008)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Damn, that sucks.  So what was the Paladin's Wis and Cha? That might explain it, if it's tied to stats.




Wisdom and Charisma were both 16.  He has a feat which gives him his Charisma modifer as a bonus to his LOH.  Perhaps there are multiple paths and the dragonborn went the one with just 1 LOH and the halfing with one which gave 3 LOH?  Did nhot see anything which made the dragonborn better in his class choices.

See ya,
Ken


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## Boarstorm (May 8, 2008)

Cirex said:
			
		

> And the Half-elf thingy sounds like a serious overlook (I think it's said like that).




Oversight.  Overlook is generally used as a verb.  (Edit: Well, except when it's a noun.  Yay for needless complication!)

Now then, to the topic at hand -- I tend to agree, but without seeing a half-elf racial writeup can we really be sure?

I mean, maybe they just get access to a racial feat at 1st level, and this half-elf chose the +1 to diplomacy instead of the "multiclass specialist" feat.


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## pukunui (May 8, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> ... and as old timers will cry *fowl*, spoiling the mood with this one thing ...



The old timers in my group usually cry _birds of prey_ but I suppose chickens work just as well. 

Seriously, though. If that's true, then that really sucks and they need to make sure they've got errata-ed pregens up on the site on the release date (plus some extras for groups with more than 5 players). If not, I might just cancel my expedited shipping (see below) and wait until I can run the adventure with homemade characters rather than the pregens.

Plus, one of my players has called dibs on the cleric already. He'll be disappointed if I have to tell him it's "incomplete". 



> First thing I thought was WOW, this is easily the highest quality adventure I have ever seen.  Awesome.



Aww ... I wish I could get a copy on the release date! As it is, I'm paying as much in shipping as the damn thing costs itself just to get it down under within a week or so.


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## Merlin the Tuna (May 8, 2008)

pukunui said:
			
		

> The old timers in my group usually cry _birds of prey_ but I suppose chickens work just as well.



You cry _raptor_?  That's harsh.


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## GoodKingJayIII (May 8, 2008)

Hmm... so if the race is incomplete in the pregen (and it certainly may not be), what's the likely hood of the race being incomplete in the actual rulebook?


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## Kitirat (May 8, 2008)

Boarstorm said:
			
		

> Oversight.  Overlook is generally used as a verb.  (Edit: Well, except when it's a noun.  Yay for needless complication!)
> 
> Now then, to the topic at hand -- I tend to agree, but without seeing a half-elf racial writeup can we really be sure?
> 
> I mean, maybe they just get access to a racial feat at 1st level, and this half-elf chose the +1 to diplomacy instead of the "multiclass specialist" feat.




Maybe.  Wow would that suck.  What did you get for being a dragonborn bob?
breathweapon, extra healing, +1 to hit and damage when bloodied you fred?

I'm a dwarf, +5 for saves v.s. posion, second wind is minor action, slide one less when pushed.  How about you drew?

I'm a human, get a free feat, free at-will class ability and 1 extra trained skill, Jim?

Elf here guys, Ignore difficult terrain to shift, reroll an attack each encounter, 7 move, grant bonuses to perception within 10 ft, Andy, your last man up, what your deal?

I'm a half-elf.  I get a +1 to diplomacy for everyone else when they are within 10 ft of me.

(Jim):  And?

And that is it, an awesome merger of human and elven abilities!

sigh.


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## Kitirat (May 8, 2008)

pukunui said:
			
		

> The old timers in my group usually cry _birds of prey_ but I suppose chickens work just as well.
> 
> Seriously, though. If that's true, then that really sucks and they need to make sure they've got errata-ed pregens up on the site on the release date (plus some extras for groups with more than 5 players). If not, I might just cancel my expedited shipping (see below) and wait until I can run the adventure with homemade characters rather than the pregens.
> 
> ...




Raptor?  Really, they cry raptor?  My guys alwasy go for the chicken and turkey man, especially fried chicken, they love it and call out to it like it is some idol.

Still, I like it, I think I'll start crying Raptor and see if it catches on.


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## pukunui (May 8, 2008)

Merlin the Tuna said:
			
		

> You cry raptor? That's harsh.





			
				Kitirat said:
			
		

> Raptor?  Really, they cry raptor?  My guys alwasy go for the chicken and turkey man, especially fried chicken, they love it and call out to it like it is some idol.
> 
> Still, I like it, I think I'll start crying Raptor and see if it catches on.



LOL

Actually, I think I should try getting them to go native: kiwi, tui, kea, kakapo, pukeko, takahe ... 

EDIT: Although ... New Zealand _does_ have its own native bird of prey as well.

Man, I wish you could do multiquote here like you can on the WotC boards!


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## Brown Jenkin (May 8, 2008)

I personally would go with crying Penguin.


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## MindWanderer (May 8, 2008)

"Cry Kiwi, and let fly the dogs of war!"


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## pukunui (May 8, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> "Cry Kiwi, and let fly the dogs of war!"



 Sad but true. "Stoats of war" would work well too ... poor little kiwis. They're endangered you know. All thanks to those non-native rats and stoats and dogs. *Shakes fist*


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## Stalker0 (May 9, 2008)

I'm wondering if the initial post is bogus. Half-elves with +2 con?


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## ZetaStriker (May 9, 2008)

Forget the initial post. Once this thread became about grammar and unique word use, it became the best thread of this entire board.


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## MindWanderer (May 9, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> I'm wondering if the initial post is bogus. Half-elves with +2 con?



 I figured half-elves at +2 Con, +2 Cha all along....


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## Kitirat (May 9, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> I figured half-elves at +2 Con, +2 Cha all along....




While I agree with another poster that the word use and grammar component is the most important aspect of the thread now. (sigh), the +2 con is speculation based on the points and stats shown.  Everything else BUT the stats is directly from the sheet.


SAVE THE HALF_ELVES!


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## FireLance (May 9, 2008)

Green Knight said:
			
		

> Damn, that sucks.  So what was the Paladin's Wis and Cha? That might explain it, if it's tied to stats.



According to thalmin's post in his Shadowfall preview thread, the dragonborn paladin had Wis 13. This could mean that Lay on Hands per day is tied to Wisdom instead of Charisma.


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## Cam Banks (May 9, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> Yes, that is it. No free feat, no additioanl class ability, no addition power as an encounter from another class, not even an extra trained skill, NOTHING EXTRA.




Are you sure? Because the D&D Experience cleric was human, so you may be seeing more cleric powers than other clerics get because this is a half-elf.

Cheers,
Cam


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## mach1.9pants (May 9, 2008)

pukunui said:
			
		

> Sad but true. "Stoats of war" would work well too ... poor little kiwis. They're endangered you know. All thanks to those non-native rats and stoats and dogs. *Shakes fist*



Pity these aren't still flying about!


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## Cam Banks (May 9, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> Pity these aren't still flying about!




To say nothing of the joy of being kicked in the head by a giant moa.

Back when I was just a poor game store manager in Auckland, I dreamed of writing an AD&D module incorporating all the coolest bits of Maori legend and folklore and having hapless outsiders (the PCs) deal with taniwha and patupaiairehe and tūrehu. Of course, then you have to include a pronunciation guide.

Cheers,
Cam


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## Kitirat (May 9, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Are you sure? Because the D&D Experience cleric was human, so you may be seeing more cleric powers than other clerics get because this is a half-elf.
> 
> Cheers,
> Cam




Very sure, looked over the character for 10 minutes.  two at wills, 1 encounter, the divine stuff (turn undead, etc), 1 daily.  4 trained skills, 1 feat.  Under class features, only the two +2 to skills (insight and diplomacy) and the +1 to allies diplomancy with 10 ft were all that was listed (all other character had a full list of their racial abilities here).  Believe me, I REALLY looked.  So it is either half-elves get only the +1 to diplomacy checks, or the character is messed up.  I think the most likely explaination is the one someone above listed, which was they left it out for space reasons as the charecter sheet is SUPER full and has no remaining space (they would of had to use a 3rd sheet).

That said, it still sucks and I would like to see if we can get them to fix it before the offical release.

See ya,
Ken


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## malcolm_n (May 9, 2008)

Conspiracy theory; we'll all get our books in June and when we get outside the cool stylized "cover" falls off and you're holding the 3.0 PHB, MM and DMG...


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## CharlesRyan (May 9, 2008)

Just to be clear, because I was confused about the point of the original post and it looks like some other people were too.

The OP is unhappy because he doesn't like the half-elf's racial characteristics; he is NOT (I think) saying the WotC failed to include the character's racial characteristics in the pre-gen character. In other words, he's complaining about a design decision, not about a faulty stat block. (I have a copy of KotS open in front of me right now, and the pre-gen character seems to be complete.)


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## Frostmarrow (May 9, 2008)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, because I was confused about the point of the original post and it looks like some other people were too.
> 
> The OP is unhappy because he doesn't like the half-elf's racial characteristics; he is NOT (I think) saying the WotC failed to include the character's racial characteristics in the pre-gen character. In other words, he's complaining about a design decision, not about a faulty stat block. (I have a copy of KotS open in front of me right now, and the pre-gen character seems to be complete.)




So the half-elf really does suck?


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## pukunui (May 9, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Back when I was just a poor game store manager in Auckland, I dreamed of writing an AD&D module incorporating all the coolest bits of Maori legend and folklore and having hapless outsiders (the PCs) deal with taniwha and patupaiairehe and tūrehu. Of course, then you have to include a pronunciation guide.



Did you pick up on the haka reference in ToB?



			
				ZetaStriker said:
			
		

> Forget the initial post. Once this thread became about grammar and unique word use, it became the best thread of this entire board.



Mad props to me!  Sorry, Kitirat.

Just for the record, I, too, am concerned that these pregen characters might be messed up. If it turns out they are and WotC doesn't do anything to fix it, I may just put the adventure aside until the core books arrive and then run it with homemade characters instead.


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 9, 2008)

CharlesRyan said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, because I was confused about the point of the original post and it looks like some other people were too.
> 
> The OP is unhappy because he doesn't like the half-elf's racial characteristics; he is NOT (I think) saying the WotC failed to include the character's racial characteristics in the pre-gen character. In other words, he's complaining about a design decision, not about a faulty stat block. (I have a copy of KotS open in front of me right now, and the pre-gen character seems to be complete.)




If the character sheet is correct then half elves are far and away the mechanically weakest race: All they have is +1 group Diplomacy, +2 Diplomacy, +2 Insight and stat mods. You really think that is complete?


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## essenbee (May 9, 2008)

> However the half-elf has NONE of its racial abilities except the following:
> +2 Con and Cha.
> +2 Insight + Diplomacy
> +1 to allies for diplomacy if within 10ft.
> ...




As the racial abilities of the half-elf have not been in any of the official previews, I assume that the OP is basing his expectations on the fan-produced "PHB-Lite"?


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 9, 2008)

essenbee said:
			
		

> As the racial abilities of the half-elf have not been in any of the official previews, I assume that the OP is basing his expectations on the fan-produced "PHB-Lite"?




We're basing it off the DDXP half-elf Warlock that had a Wizard at-will power as an encounter power for no other reason we can find other than being a half-elf. Also, in an interview somewhere they talked about half-elves getting a multiclass bonus I thought.


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## Cadfan (May 9, 2008)

Perhaps the stat bonuses are floating?

You know, my half elf gets +2 con +2 cha, yours gets +2 str +2 int?


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## Nikosandros (May 9, 2008)

essenbee said:
			
		

> As the racial abilities of the half-elf have not been in any of the official previews, I assume that the OP is basing his expectations on the fan-produced "PHB-Lite"?



I guess that the expectations are also based on what we know about other races. From this limited information half-elves _appear_ to be weaker.


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## Green Knight (May 9, 2008)

FireLance said:
			
		

> According to thalmin's post in his Shadowfall preview thread, the dragonborn paladin had Wis 13. This could mean that Lay on Hands per day is tied to Wisdom instead of Charisma.




Hmm. The OP said the pregen had Wis 16. But if it's Wis 13 then that explains it. Damn. So much for my hope of being able to gimp Wis without consequences.


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## Cam Banks (May 9, 2008)

pukunui said:
			
		

> Did you pick up on the haka reference in ToB?




I never read the thing, so no, I didn't pick up on that.  Was it especially useful against springboks?

Cheers,
Cam


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## Kitirat (May 9, 2008)

Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
			
		

> We're basing it off the DDXP half-elf Warlock that had a Wizard at-will power as an encounter power for no other reason we can find other than being a half-elf. Also, in an interview somewhere they talked about half-elves getting a multiclass bonus I thought.




Based it off the DDXP warlock, who has a class feature (prime shot) of the ranger, and the wizard at-will ray of frost as an encounter power.  

I made a mistake on the wis of the dragonborn BTW, it is 13 not 16 so LOH may be based on Wis for number of times a day (or Con for that matter).

Finally, to make it clear, what I was saying is the KotS half-elf cleric has a full two sheets (it is not like the paper is blank, it is chalk full) BUT, the only racial ability other than the stat and skill boons all races get, the ONLY racial feature is the +1 dip at 10 ft.

Thus I am concerned about it for one of two reasons:
1)  Half-elves are just horridly pitiful, even worse then 3.5 races and not even close to any other race in 4th.
OR
2)  The pregen has none of the cool components of the Half-Elf, gimping the character in comparison to the other characters in KoTS.

Regardless, the real issue for me is I have to deal with people I'm trying to get into 4th and it is one of the things they will point to and say "here is an example of things to come, oversight and/or error" and thus have their interest diminished in the short term (I doubt highly it will prevent them from trying out 4th when the rest of the books come in, but those 30 days are going to be irritating).  To be honest, I fell a bit cheated myself.  You playtested this massive adventure and could not even find the half-elf issue on a pregen for it?  Wow.


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## Nytmare (May 9, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> Of course, then you have to include a pronunciation guide.



Do you really think a thing like _proper pronunciation_ is going to get in the way of gamers?


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## drjones (May 9, 2008)

We know that racial abilities also come from feats right?  Feats none of us have seen?  So pronouncing half-elves nerfed at this point is entirely premature, especially since there is no reason to believe that the pregens have to be min/maxed up the wazoo.  Maybe they just wanted this guy to be diplomatic?


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## MindWanderer (May 9, 2008)

We also know that WotC acknowledged the half-elf to be the worst 3e race, and they'd take measures to correct that.  Since all races have racial feats, and feats should be balanced with one another, the half-elf needs cool features, too.

Besides, I ran my "Tira has Ray of Frost because she's a half-elf" theory past one of the design team members when I was at DDXP, and he confirmed it.  He didn't tell me the specific rules, but I gave him a laundry-list of speculations, and he said, "everything you've said is correct."


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## pukunui (May 9, 2008)

Cam Banks said:
			
		

> I never read the thing, so no, I didn't pick up on that.  Was it especially useful against springboks?



One of the "nine swords" (legacy weapons) is named _Kamate_, which means "it is death" in Maori Goblin. It doesn't give any indication as to its effectiveness against springboks unfortunately.

Here's a question: What does the half-elf cleric get when he levels up? Are there any racial things that come into play at 2nd or 3rd level? Anyone know?


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## Sir_Darien (May 9, 2008)

The fact that the DDXP character had a wizard daily as an at-will power doesn't mean all half-elves will. Since the feats each character had was not expressly listed anywhere on the sheet Tira could have just taken the wizard multiclass feat. This may mean that half-elves just get a bonus feat (perhaps restricted to a muticlass feat??) at first level.

That means the pregen out of the module just picked a crappy feat. This can be easily fixed by you and your players.

Boy it would really help if someone just posted the half-elf pregen so we could all see  

EDIT: Grammar.....bad!


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## cdrcjsn (May 10, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> Finally, to make it clear, what I was saying is the KotS half-elf cleric has a full two sheets (it is not like the paper is blank, it is chalk full) BUT, the only racial ability other than the stat and skill boons all races get, the ONLY racial feature is the +1 dip at 10 ft.
> 
> Thus I am concerned about it for one of two reasons:
> 1)  Half-elves are just horridly pitiful, even worse then 3.5 races and not even close to any other race in 4th.
> ...




Just curious, but can you list the class powers of the half-elf?


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## pukunui (May 10, 2008)

Sir_Darien said:
			
		

> Boy it would really help if someone just posted the half-elf pregen so we could all see



Ditto!


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## jeffhartsell (May 10, 2008)

Sir_Darien said:
			
		

> Boy it would really help if someone just posted the half-elf pregen so we could all see




QFT. We don't need a scan, just enough to get the overview. I'm curious to know if there is simply errata needed or if WOTC made design changes after DDXP.


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## Kitirat (May 10, 2008)

I'll hit the store tomorrow and pull down all the stats for everyone.  I remember he had 2 at wills, 1 encounter, 1 daily the 2 healing words and the divine stuff (turn undead and the other one + the one he got from his single feat).

i.e. all the standard stuff.


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 10, 2008)

Some of you are missing the point here. People aren't screaming that half-elves have been nerfed, we're saying "Something is wrong with this character". The options are: 
A) The Half-Elves have universally been gimped (unlikely) 
B) The character sheet is wrong (likely).

Going over and over the sheet I cannot find anything that covers the half-elf racials, _especially_ considering all the other character's racials are spelled out on their sheet. The sources of each ability is quite clear.


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## FabioMilitoPagliara (May 10, 2008)

I read (in the other thread) that the Half-elf got the arcana skill this could be an use of the multiclass feat but is missing some other power

unless he got some minor power as an encounter (say light/mage hand or whatever)

so which power has the cleric?


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## Kitirat (May 10, 2008)

Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
			
		

> Some of you are missing the point here. People aren't screaming that half-elves have been nerfed, we're saying "Something is wrong with this character". The options are:
> A) The Half-Elves have universally been gimped (unlikely)
> B) The character sheet is wrong (likely).
> 
> Going over and over the sheet I cannot find anything that covers the half-elf racials, _especially_ considering all the other character's racials are spelled out on their sheet. The sources of each ability is quite clear.





This was the point of my original post (Along with starting a study on which avian group players most commonly spout the name of during play).


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 10, 2008)

FabioMilitoPagliara said:
			
		

> I read (in the other thread) that the Half-elf got the arcana skill this could be an use of the multiclass feat but is missing some other power
> 
> unless he got some minor power as an encounter (say light/mage hand or whatever)
> 
> so which power has the cleric?




He has 2 Cleric at-wills, 1 Cleric encounter and 1 Cleric daily, Healing Word and 3 Channel Divinity abilities (the 2 we've seen before an one from a feat, just like the DDXP Cleric). At level 2 he adds 1 Cleric utility and at level 3 he adds 1 Cleric encounter. There are _*NO*_ extra powers on his sheet.

Everything adds up to what the DDXP Cleric has. 

The KotS human *specifies* that they get an extra feat, skill, at-will power and the +1 defenses. All the other classes have all bonuses specifically spelled out on the sheet except ability score modifiers and vision. The half-elf lists two abilities here: +1 Group Diplomacy, and the skill bonuses (+2 Diplomacy +2 Insight).

I am almost certain this is a problem with the sheet/character rather than half-elves in general. But there _*IS*_ a problem.


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## jeffhartsell (May 10, 2008)

It is a bummer that errata is likely needed for KotS for the half-elf.  I'm curious to know what the change needs to be. Either an additional encounter power from a different at-will list and/or another class ability from a different class.

Can any of the playtesters confirm, without violating the NDA, that there appears to be an issue with the half-elf as decribed by folks in this thread?


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## FabioMilitoPagliara (May 10, 2008)

Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
			
		

> He has 2 Cleric at-wills, 1 Cleric encounter and 1 Cleric daily, Healing Word and 3 Channel Divinity abilities (the 2 we've seen before an one from a feat, just like the DDXP Cleric). At level 2 he adds 1 Cleric utility and at level 3 he adds 1 Cleric encounter. There are _*NO*_ extra powers on his sheet.




thanks, this with the arcana make me think they forgot the wizard at will in encounter power


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## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 10, 2008)

FabioMilitoPagliara said:
			
		

> thanks, this with the arcana make me think they forgot the wizard at will in encounter power




But they would have both forgotten to add the power *AND* forget to mention the racial abilities in the section they list racial abilities.

Very odd.


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## dimonic (May 10, 2008)

Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
			
		

> He has 2 Cleric at-wills, 1 Cleric encounter and 1 Cleric daily, Healing Word and 3 Channel Divinity abilities (the 2 we've seen before an one from a feat, just like the DDXP Cleric). At level 2 he adds 1 Cleric utility and at level 3 he adds 1 Cleric encounter. There are _*NO*_ extra powers on his sheet.




Is it not possible that in the text of the adventure somewhere, it asks that the player of the Half-elf pick an At-will power _from one of the other characters - or even another pregen from D&DXP_ and note it as an encounter power? (Just wondering - I haven't read the module myself).


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## keterys (May 10, 2008)

Honestly, even if he has any one at-will as an encounter, he looks a little lackluster to me. It would help a lot, but still...


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## pukunui (May 10, 2008)

cdrcjsn said:
			
		

> Just curious, but can you list the class powers of the half-elf?



 See here: front and [url="http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut2.jpg]back[/url].


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## Kitirat (May 11, 2008)

pukunui said:
			
		

> See here: front and [url="http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t315/jt1044/Half-ElfClericofBahamut2.jpg]back[/url].




I believe now everyone will agree that it is most likely an error on the character sheet.  A most silly error for your preview adventure!  A pregen not correctly build!  Very frustrating.

See ya,
Ken


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## Picatrix (May 11, 2008)

Adding to the "this must be a mistake" side, I'm surprised it took me this long to notice that the half-elf's +2 to Diplomacy and Insight, which the sheet says are already included in the skill bonuses, aren't actually included. It really looks like someone forgot to add anything at all for race.


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## Lurker59 (May 11, 2008)

In addition to the missing modifiers for diplomancy and insight it also seems that armor penalties were only included in the paladin's skill modifiers, not to the cleric or fighter. According to what we've seen so far chain mail should be -1 and scale mail should be -2.


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## Mostlyjoe (May 11, 2008)

It's just frustrating and very sad that they have such an obvious error (oversight?) in what was to be the premier D&D 4th Edition product.


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## jeffhartsell (May 11, 2008)

WOTC had this same problem when 3.0 came out.  The people making modules and stat blocks had no idea how to edit them to make sure all of the numbers added up correctly.


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## mach1.9pants (May 11, 2008)

jeffhartsell said:
			
		

> WOTC had this same problem when 3.0 came out.  The people making modules and stat blocks had no idea how to edit them to make sure all of the numbers added up correctly.



So, you'd kinda hoped they'd learned from their mistakes! The 'but we always get this problem' is one of the worst form of excuses that exists IMO


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## Cirex (May 11, 2008)

Mostlyjoe said:
			
		

> It's just frustrating and very sad that they have such an obvious error (oversight?) in what was to be the premier D&D 4th Edition product.




The less popular three 3.x core classes, half-orcs, half-elves and gnomes didn't have much luck at 4.0! Two out, one is left out at the second pregen we get of it.


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## jeffhartsell (May 11, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> So, you'd kinda hoped they'd learned from their mistakes! The 'but we always get this problem' is one of the worst form of excuses that exists IMO




Agree.


----------



## FitzTheRuke (May 11, 2008)

It's the first thing I noticed about the half-elf too. I was really looking forward to finding out if the first DDXP half-elf was correct or the second one (IE if the character's multi-class power was actually at-will or encounter) and MO DICE, it doesn't even HAVE a multiclass power.

The designers have CLEARLY stated that half-elves have some sort of multiclass feature, but this cleric certainly doesn't.  If it is an error (which I hope), It's a pretty big one.  But there IS evidence to support the error theory, in that there are OTHER, smaller errors on the character sheets, like the Paladin saying that his Healing Hands feat is "already included" when it clearly ISN'T.

All I have to say is I hope that Half-Elf is missing his multiclass power, and that they haven't nerfed the half-elf, AGAIN.

Fitz


----------



## hbarsquared (May 11, 2008)

Here's a thought, given the unsatisfactory character sheets -

Perhaps the copies of _KotS_ is indeed a literal _*preview*_ copy, as in, not from the final print run?  I know bookstores sometimes receive "preview" copies of novels that don't quite match up, edit-wise, to the final publication.

Perhaps we are seeing something similar, here?  And the copy that will be released on May 20 will be better edited...  I hope...


----------



## FitzTheRuke (May 11, 2008)

jeremy_dnd said:
			
		

> HPerhaps the copies of _KotS_ is indeed a literal _*preview*_ copy, as in, not from the final print run?  I know bookstores sometimes receive "preview" copies of novels that don't quite match up, edit-wise, to the final publication....




Yeah, we can hope they rushed a small preview print-run while the actual book was still in a final editing pass.  Somehow I really doubt it, though.

Fitz


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## The_Universe (May 11, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> Alright so I went to the store and saw KotS.  I'll give impressions in another post, however in this I am solely looking for a WOTC offical to address the half-elf issue.
> 
> 4 of the 5 Pregens looked great.  Disliked that the paladin's LOH was reduced from 3 to 1 a day, but otherwise, very nicely done.
> 
> ...



 Dangit! What stores have this thing on the shelves!? I want it!


----------



## Lurker59 (May 11, 2008)

I can (for the most part) confirm that the copy the stores get is the same one that everyone else will be receiving. Personally my guess is that the half-elf lacks a multi-class ability due to lack of space. All the characters fit on two-pages and there is absolutely no extra space on the cleric's pages. The mistakes in modifiers are a little galling though.


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 11, 2008)

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> Yeah, we can hope they rushed a small preview print-run while the actual book was still in a final editing pass.  Somehow I really doubt it, though.




Agree. It is more likely WOTC rushed the module to build up the hype for WWGD and have a module for the game day. Plus, WOTC is notorious for poor editing. Me thinks too many people playing DnD at the office instead of focusing on editing


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## FitzTheRuke (May 11, 2008)

Lurker59 said:
			
		

> I can (for the most part) confirm that the copy the stores get is the same one that everyone else will be receiving. Personally my guess is that the half-elf lacks a multi-class ability due to lack of space. All the characters fit on two-pages and there is absolutely no extra space on the cleric's pages. The mistakes in modifiers are a little galling though.




I think this possibility might worry me MORE... there's no space so it just gets cut? You've got to redesign your character sheet if you can't fit everything on it, not nerf the character. (or pick a diferent race/class combo that can fit all it's ablilites if you're stuck on the format.)

Fitz


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## jeffhartsell (May 11, 2008)

FitzTheRuke said:
			
		

> I think this possibility might worry me MORE... there's no space so it just gets cut? You've got to redesign your character sheet if you can't fit everything on it, not nerf the character. (or pick a diferent race/class combo that can fit all it's ablilites if you're stuck on the format.)




Agree. That requires an interesting spin... "Due to space limitations we knowingly released an official product that used incorrect rules. Keep playing! -Bill"

That is hopefully, doubtful. I put my guess on number 13, lack of editing.


----------



## hennebeck (May 11, 2008)

How can editting be so poor, if it is?
There are atleast 1000 people here with years of D&D experience who can make a character from scratch using a PHB.
Any one of us would have looked at a half-elf character and the rough draft of the 4e PHB and found these mistakes (if they are mistakes, which I believe they are).
Shouldn't everyone in the office looked this module over, searched it with a fine-toothed comb to make sure the premier product was perfect. Every T should have been crossed and every I dotted. Every one.

sarcasm: My only thought is that they wanted to showcase their DDI so they will have the errata ready and waiting on May 20th. /sarcasm


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## jeffhartsell (May 11, 2008)

It is odd to see these errors (if they are) because WOTC had gotten much better at making sure all groups had the most current version of the rules so that they could proof against the current build. That plagued them with 3.0.

Plus not everyone at WOTC is the munchkin rules lawyer that can build an epic 3.5e character from scratch in 30 min that can do 1000 damage a round. And have it accurate down to the last luck bonus.


----------



## pukunui (May 11, 2008)

jeffhartsell said:
			
		

> Plus not everyone at WOTC is the munchkin rules lawyer that can build an epic 3.5e character from scratch in 30 min that can do 1000 damage a round. And have it accurate down to the last luck bonus.



True but you'd think that in the instance of KotS, it would all be correct considering that Mearls was one of the writers (unless, of course, he had nothing to do with the pregens).

I notice that, although Mearls popped into another thread to confirm that Winterhaven was indeed based off the Keep on the Borderlands, he appears to have steered clear of this thread and all the others mentioning the error-riddled pregen characters.

Unless WotC puts up fixed versions of the pregens, I think I'll just wait until my group can make their own characters before running KotS. Maybe I should switch my expedited shipping from KotS to the core rulebook gift set instead ...


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 11, 2008)

I am holding off running the KotS until our group has time to read the books and make our own characters. Savage Tides is still wrapping up.


----------



## pukunui (May 11, 2008)

Has anyone else noticed that the pregens all seem to get a racial feat at 2nd level?

Human wizard: Human Perseverance
Dwarf fighter: Dwarven Weapon Training
Dragonborn paladin: Enlarge Dragon Breath
Halfling rogue: Halfling Agility
Half-elf cleric: Group Insight


----------



## keterys (May 11, 2008)

It's possible they just get a generic feat... and chose to take the racial one.


----------



## pukunui (May 11, 2008)

keterys said:
			
		

> It's possible they just get a generic feat... and chose to take the racial one.



It's possible but every single one of them has taken a racial feat so I wonder if it's actually a built-in thing.


----------



## LightPhoenix (May 11, 2008)

pukunui said:
			
		

> It's possible but every single one of them has taken a racial feat so I wonder if it's actually a built-in thing.




Possibly, but I think it's more likely they are aiming to showcase a particular part of the system with each level.  For the case of the feat at second level, it's the racial feats.  Also, when you think about it, aside from rituals, feats are probably the part we know the least about, so perhaps they're trying to save something for the books.  We already knew about racial feats, from the excerpts.


----------



## sunbear (May 11, 2008)

hennebeck said:
			
		

> How can editting be so poor, if it is?
> There are atleast 1000 people here with years of D&D experience who can make a character from scratch using a PHB.
> Any one of us would have looked at a half-elf character and the rough draft of the 4e PHB and found these mistakes (if they are mistakes, which I believe they are).
> Shouldn't everyone in the office looked this module over, searched it with a fine-toothed comb to make sure the premier product was perfect. Every T should have been crossed and every I dotted. Every one.




QFT

This is very disappointing. If it turns out to be a mistake that is. A bunch of designers seem to think that accurate stat blocks aren't that important. They are very important. Especially in this product. We don't have the rules to fix any potential problems and this is our first impression of the new game. I would like to mention that the occasional grammatical or spelling mistake doesn't bother me in the slightest. But messed up stat blocks are...frustrating. 

Can we please get a WoTC confirmation/explanation?


----------



## pukunui (May 11, 2008)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> Possibly, but I think it's more likely they are aiming to showcase a particular part of the system with each level.  For the case of the feat at second level, it's the racial feats.  Also, when you think about it, aside from rituals, feats are probably the part we know the least about, so perhaps they're trying to save something for the books.  We already knew about racial feats, from the excerpts.



 Possibly. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.


----------



## hennebeck (May 11, 2008)

Errors I've seen so far:
They couldn't commission pictures specific for their Premier Product?
(We are gonna end up using gnome minis to represent Dragonborn at this rate.)

Dwarf Fighter: Said to be using a Maul and daggers. Picture shows Long sword and Shield.

Halfling Rogue: Sneak attack says Light Blades, but dagger not noted as light blade. Just dagger. Maybe, hopefully, it's noted somewhere in the rulebook.
    Said to be using daggers. Picture shows Crossbow.

Dragonborn Paladin: Has Feat Healing Hands, says it's already added (+3 ). It's not.
      Said to be using Longsword and javelin. Picture shows 2 handed axe.

Half-Elf Cleric: Said to be using Mace. Picture shows Hammer or Pick.
    I added everything up for all classes, and if you count the Extra Language the 1/2 Elf is missing 1 Racial Ability. Not as major as I was hearing, but still an oversight that shouldn't have happened.

Race:..Racial:..At-Will:..Encounter:..Daily:..Class:..Feat:..Level 2:..Level 3:
1/2 Elf....3..........2.............1...........1.........3.......1.........2...........1 (counting Language as Racial)
Halfling...4..........2.............1...........1.........4.......1.........2...........1
DragonB..4..........2.............1...........1.........3.......1.........2...........1
Human....4..........2.............1...........1.........3.......1.........2...........1 (counting the added feat and At-Will as Racial)
Dwarf.....4..........2.............1...........1.........3.......1.........2...........1


----------



## pweent (May 12, 2008)

Well, we've got a clarification and correction on the Earth Titan web preview, but nothing on the half-elf pre-gen yet. Even if details aren't given, I hope we can at least get a statement along the lines of:

 There is indeed an error in the Keep on the Shadowfell half-elf.
 The KotS half-elf cleric is correct; the DDXP half-elf warlock was in error (or was using an earlier version of the rules).
 Both the KotS half-elf and the DDXP half-elf are correct. Wait for the PHB and the full half-elf write-up.

Even that last statement would mollify me a bit. I'm hoping that the half-elf does not once again end up the red-headed child in fourth edition.


----------



## Kitirat (May 13, 2008)

pweent said:
			
		

> Well, we've got a clarification and correction on the Earth Titan web preview, but nothing on the half-elf pre-gen yet. Even if details aren't given, I hope we can at least get a statement along the lines of:
> 
> There is indeed an error in the Keep on the Shadowfell half-elf.
> The KotS half-elf cleric is correct; the DDXP half-elf warlock was in error (or was using an earlier version of the rules).
> ...




What I've been looking for in the beginning when I made the post.  Appearently, WOTC does not have the time to correct community perception on their premier product.


----------



## pukunui (May 13, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> Appearently, WOTC does not have the time to correct community perception on their premier product.



 Or maybe they _want_ people to speculate about it ... any publicity is good publicity and all that. 

It could also be that they're too busy gearing up for the actual release of the game to address something they see as relatively minor (not saying I agree with that, mind you).


----------



## jeffhartsell (May 13, 2008)

Or WOTC is waiting until the module is actually on the shelf to acknowledge that there are errors. Or maybe there are no errors and the half-elf got a makeover. We'll know for sure in less than 4 weeks.  And I'll have no problems discussing house rules with the group once we've had time to look at all of the rules.  We had plenty of house rules for 3e.


----------



## pukunui (May 13, 2008)

jeffhartsell said:
			
		

> Or WOTC is waiting until the module is actually on the shelf to acknowledge that there are errors. Or maybe there are no errors and the half-elf got a makeover. We'll know for sure in less than 4 weeks.  And I'll have no problems discussing house rules with the group once we've had time to look at all of the rules.  We had plenty of house rules for 3e.



 That too.


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## Chowder (May 13, 2008)

I'm still astonished that there are errors with the characters.  There are only 5 characters, and they're the most important part of the whole product to get right.  Further, WotC supposedly has a DDI character editor that can be used to verify that the statistics are right, so either they chose not to use that, or it doesn't work.

But what really bothers me is that given this example of poor editing, my confidence in the quality of the editing in the core rulebooks has plummeted.  If the core rulebooks contain mistakes of this nature it will be difficult to understand the rules, which will be very annoying.  

Does anyone know if WotC plans to incorporate errata into the special edition versions they plan to release in the fall?  I'm wondering if it makes sense to cancel my preorder and wait for a second printing....

-Chowder


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## pukunui (May 13, 2008)

Chowder said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if WotC plans to incorporate errata into the special edition versions they plan to release in the fall?



They've made no mention of doing that. It's certainly not one of the "selling points" of the 4e special editions the way it was with the 3.x ones. Personally I think they're releasing the special editions too soon to be able to put all the errata into them, so I doubt it's worth getting them unless you absolutely have to have the faux leather covers, gilded pages, and built-in bookmarks.

I can deal with writing in my books. Besides, if it ever turns out that future printings of the initial books include the errata, I can always buy them and on-sell my original copies to my players or something.


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## Ian Demagi (May 13, 2008)

*KoSF*

I am sure they will "post the patch" on DDI for any ommission or clarifications...Ian


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## fanboy2000 (May 13, 2008)

Kitirat, it may be possible that you're reverse engineering the stat block wrong. Reverse engineering statblocks is tricky business. For example, my evil munchkin players often reverse engineer my monsters incorrectly.

Without knowing the rules, it would be easy to miss-calculate or wrongly guess were all the numbers come from.

I don't think we'll really know until the PHB comes out and by then, most of us will have other things on out minds than the pre-gens in KotSF.


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## jackston2 (May 13, 2008)

Don't know if this has been mentioned, (I don't think it has) but it looks to me like the half-elf cleric has a free multi-class into Paladin of Fighter (the mark on the encounter attack).


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## mach1.9pants (May 13, 2008)

jackston2 said:
			
		

> Don't know if this has been mentioned, (I don't think it has) but it looks to me like the half-elf cleric has a free multi-class into Paladin of Fighter (the mark on the encounter attack).



No, I don't think so. yes he has the ability to use a mark, but if he had multiclassed he would get this (if he took the feat):







			
				multiclass excerpt said:
			
		

> Student of the Sword 	Str 13 	Fighter: skill training, +1 to attack and mark 1/encounter
> Soldier of the Faith 	Str 13, Cha 13 	Paladin: skill training, divine challenge 1/encounter



The mark wouldn't be 'mixed-in' with a cleric power IMO that is does not seem to be how powers/features work. They are individual stand-alone entities. Just because marking is included in this cleric power (and it is listed as a cleric power not a fighter or paladin power) doesn't mean anything beyond that cleric power grants a mark. Some monsters also mark, not just ftr and pals


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## Jhaelen (May 13, 2008)

Chowder said:
			
		

> I'm still astonished that there are errors with the characters.  There are only 5 characters, and they're the most important part of the whole product to get right.



Really? WotC has a longstanding tradition of not getting stat blocks right. Is any of the sample characters so wrong that it becomes unplayable? If not, then everything's fine. People have been playtesting 4E with incomplete or even wrong characters & rules for quite a while and it didn't really matter. You're still able to get a good impression on how the game's going to play.







			
				Chowder said:
			
		

> Further, WotC supposedly has a DDI character editor that can be used to verify that the statistics are right, so either they chose not to use that, or it doesn't work.



Since DDI will only be available as a beta when the books hit the shelves, I'm pretty sure they didn't have a working, up-to-date version of the character editor available at the time the adventure went to print.


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## Bagpuss (May 13, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> Disliked that the paladin's LOH was reduced from 3 to 1 a day




But at 3 times a day he was a better healer than the cleric.


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## UngeheuerLich (May 13, 2008)

Wizards does a lot of copy paste errors... or doesn´t double check...

but maybe that marking ability is some form of the elven multiclass feature... i could imagine they put that marking 1/encounter into an encounter power for simplicity...


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## Ryngard (May 13, 2008)

The problem isn't an error in the stat block that affects game play (it doesn't... people are being WAY too critical of pregens in the preview adventure).

The problem is that people want to know the entire Half-Elf racial benefits list and are pissed that they can't figure it out from abbreviated stat blocks.

Guys chill. Wait till June 6th then if WotC DID publish a lame ass Half-Elf, then riot and kick their butts. But for now, just play the dang game and have fun!


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## Voss (May 13, 2008)

Bagpuss said:
			
		

> But at 3 times a day he was a better healer than the cleric.



Eh?  The cleric could use his healing twice each encounter.  Even if you only have 2 encounters in a day, thats more healing, plus the bonus d6+X that healing word provides.


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## FireLance (May 13, 2008)

Voss said:
			
		

> Eh?  The cleric could use his healing twice each encounter.  Even if you only have 2 encounters in a day, thats more healing, plus the bonus d6+X that healing word provides.



The paladin's real advantage is that he can use his own healing surges. Clerical healing words depend on the target having healing surges left.

However, if the target has healing surges left, a cleric is a much better healer, and even more so out of combat, when he can arguably use two healing words every five minutes.


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## Kitirat (May 13, 2008)

Ryngard said:
			
		

> The problem isn't an error in the stat block that affects game play (it doesn't... people are being WAY too critical of pregens in the preview adventure).
> 
> The problem is that people want to know the entire Half-Elf racial benefits list and are pissed that they can't figure it out from abbreviated stat blocks.
> 
> Guys chill. Wait till June 6th then if WotC DID publish a lame ass Half-Elf, then riot and kick their butts. But for now, just play the dang game and have fun!




Actually, this was not my intent (to find out the half-elf abilities).  It was a denotation of the horrid editing for the books and how it will affect my game group.  Have people coming over to play KotS before the books come out (been planned for months) and their first impressions will be based on these pregens when they go over the product (which they are dying to see).  They are veteran players and this type of thing is the stuff which drives them nuts.  So for me it is an ACTION item, not a complaint.  I want a fix before they show up so I can show that at least WOTC will be proactive about this stuff.

Sure I can use the pregens from DDXP and likely will, but they have already seen those and will be looking at the product as an example of the work in 4th ed.  Thus I am looking for a solution and post here mainly to attempt to get it noticed.

As for not doing the stat blocks right, I am not looking at the stat blocks, I am looking at a completed character sheet.  They do not have an extra feat, extra skill, extra encounter power, nothing but the bonus to diplomacy within 10ft and the standard skill and stat bonuses all races get.  No math was done, simple process of elimination.

Have a good one,
Ken


----------



## gamersgambit (May 13, 2008)

I've emailed my contacts at Wizards and asked 'em to bump this question (and the one about the skill bonuses vs. armor penalties; etcetera) to R&D.  I don't know if this will *do* anything, but speaking as a game store owner, I agree with another poster on this thread:  I don't care about reverse-engineering stat blocks; what I care about is that my customers get their money's worth on Day 1, especially when the price of Keep on the Shadowfell is $5 more than the other modules they're going to be coming out with (presumably, in my opinion, because it's an early sneak preview).

I referenced this thread in it.


----------



## KidSnide (May 13, 2008)

Chowder said:
			
		

> I'm still astonished that there are errors with the characters.  There are only 5 characters, and they're the most important part of the whole product to get right.



I have to disagree with this.  Of the entire product, the characters and quick-start rules are - far and away - the least important parts of the product to get right.  Obviously, the most important things to get right are the core rulebooks.  Once you get to Keep on the Shadowfell, the adventure itself is far more important than the characters.  

Sure, the characters are player visible, but they have a shelf-life of two-and-a-half weeks.  The half-elf thing is pain in the aasimar, and pretty embarrassing to boot, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.  These character write-ups are only marginally more important than a preview article.


----------



## Yergi (May 13, 2008)

KidSnide said:
			
		

> I have to disagree with this.  Of the entire product, the characters and quick-start rules are - far and away - the least important parts of the product to get right.  Obviously, the most important things to get right are the core rulebooks.  Once you get to Keep on the Shadowfell, the adventure itself is far more important than the characters.




But the thing is, the core rulebooks are different products all together.  Within KotS, which is its own product, I'd agree that getting the rules and characters right is of the utmost importance.


----------



## mearls (May 13, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> However the half-elf has NONE of its racial abilities except the following:
> +2 Con and Cha.
> +2 Insight + Diplomacy
> +1 to allies for diplomacy if within 10ft.
> ...




Message received!

A few of us in R&D saw this thread, but we completely forgot that retailers were getting early copies of KotS. Sorry! We didn't want to jump into a thread before an official release.

I'm reading through this thread now to make sure that we take care of any issues that come up in the adventure. We have some goodies going up on DDI for the adventure next week, so we'll be sure to take care of any issues when we post those.

The half-elf's bonus power was cut simply due to space restrictions. Keep in mind that, as a quick start, KotS doesn't always use the full rules. For example, the skill challenge in the adventure was slimmed down so that we could fit it and the rules around it into the encounter.

We'll address the half-elf on DDI and bundle it with the materials we're posting next week. If you're playing the adventure right now, go ahead and pick a at-will power from a different character and use it as an encounter power for the half-elf. Just go ahead and use the listed attack bonus and damage for the power you choose, though normally you'd recompute those.

Sorry for the confusion, and sorry we didn't answer this thread earlier.


----------



## Charwoman Gene (May 13, 2008)

Mission Accomplished!


----------



## Xardinhul (May 13, 2008)

mearls said:
			
		

> Stuff.




Thanks for coming on the thread to clear this up, Mike.  I love that you guys are being so cool about answering questions from the community.


----------



## Scott_Rouse (May 13, 2008)

mearls said:
			
		

> Message received!
> 
> A few of us in R&D saw this thread, but we completely forgot that retailers were getting early copies of KotS. Sorry! We didn't want to jump into a thread before an official release.
> 
> ...




As for Lay on Hands. It's use is tied to the Wis Mod. with a minimum use of 1 per day. So our Dragonborn Paladin is not so wise and thus has one LOH per day. The higher the Wis Mod for character the more LOH they get per day (still limited to 1 per round).


----------



## Cirex (May 13, 2008)

Thanks both for the clarification.

[Un]Wise paladins and half-elves around the [PoL]world can now rejoice.


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## DimitriX (May 13, 2008)

mearls said:
			
		

> Message received!
> 
> A few of us in R&D saw this thread, but we completely forgot that retailers were getting early copies of KotS. Sorry! We didn't want to jump into a thread before an official release.
> 
> ...




Thanks for clearing that up!  I'll be looking foward to any changes in the DDI.  I did have someone ask me about the final bad guy, but I could remember if it is true or not.  So, let me post his question here and see if someone can answer it for me.

"I'm trying to figure out what Kalarel's "Shadow Form" ability does for him.

next to his Armor Class it mentions (Note : See "Shadow Form" below)

but there is no "below" note mentioning such."


----------



## EvolutionKB (May 13, 2008)

Very cool

I'll have to bring this to the owner of my FLGS attention.


----------



## Nikosandros (May 13, 2008)

Thank you very much Mike and Scott for posting on this thread.


----------



## Kitirat (May 13, 2008)

mearls said:
			
		

> Message received!
> 
> A few of us in R&D saw this thread, but we completely forgot that retailers were getting early copies of KotS. Sorry! We didn't want to jump into a thread before an official release.
> 
> ...




Thank you very much for coming in and giving it some love and considering everything, thanks for the reasonable timeframe for the response.  I am happy to hear things will be corrected beofre I have to run the module!  

Also thanks Scott for the info on lay on hands!

It will say a LOT to the players I will be dealing with that you were prompt in fixing this all up, might even get you a few (3-6) extra long term customers.  Every little bit counts. 

See ya,
Ken


----------



## pukunui (May 13, 2008)

Nikosandros said:
			
		

> Thank you very much Mike and Scott for posting on this thread.



 I'll second this. You guys are great!


----------



## mearls (May 13, 2008)

DimitriX said:
			
		

> Thanks for clearing that up!  I'll be looking foward to any changes in the DDI.  I did have someone ask me about the final bad guy, but I could remember if it is true or not.  So, let me post his question here and see if someone can answer it for me.
> 
> "I'm trying to figure out what Kalarel's "Shadow Form" ability does for him.
> 
> ...




I believe that Shadow Form was cut for space purposes. It allowed him to turn insubstantial and gain phasing for a round when bloodied, and I think we had to cut the explanation for how those two effects work for space reasons.

His stat block is fine* as is, though.

*If you assume that fine means he is a well-oiled PC killing machine.


----------



## DimitriX (May 13, 2008)

mearls said:
			
		

> I believe that Shadow Form was cut for space purposes. It allowed him to turn insubstantial and gain phasing for a round when bloodied, and I think we had to cut the explanation for how those two effects work for space reasons.
> 
> His stat block is fine* as is, though.
> 
> *If you assume that fine means he is a well-oiled PC killing machine.




Yes, the final battle does seem nasty.  And I like the surprise lurking in the portal.  Will those expanded rules be included in the DDI release?


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## Kahoots (May 13, 2008)

mearls said:
			
		

> *If you assume that fine means he is a well-oiled PC killing machine.



When I read this, I heard a haunting evil laugh coming through my monitor.


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## mearls (May 13, 2008)

DimitriX said:
			
		

> Yes, the final battle does seem nasty.  And I like the surprise lurking in the portal.  Will those expanded rules be included in the DDI release?




He was fixed to work without the ability, so just ignore the reference.


----------



## DonAdam (May 13, 2008)

As long as Mike and the Rouse are here...

Why does the wizard lack a third cantrip? Mistake? Int-based? Something else?


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## sunbear (May 13, 2008)

mearls said:
			
		

> Sorry for the confusion, and sorry we didn't answer this thread earlier.




Wow, that deflates this particular topic of rant like a big stinky sack of gamer farts.


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## HP Dreadnought (May 13, 2008)

*whew* Another "crisis" averted!


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## Ghaerdon Fain (May 13, 2008)

HP Dreadnought said:
			
		

> *whew* Another "crisis" averted!




The replys we recieved really does count for me.  Little things like listening to a community who desires the best product out there and addresses helps sales and breeds increased confidence.  Good on you guys!


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## mach1.9pants (May 13, 2008)

Charwoman Gene said:
			
		

> Mission Accomplished!



KotSF Are Go!
Thanks to WotC for their quick replies


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## hbarsquared (May 14, 2008)

To Mike and Scott -

Let me add my extreme gratitude.  Hearing your responses to what seem to be legitimate concerns (and learning that various corrections/errata/updates _will_ be on D&DI) is very heartening.  I have already been looking forward to 4E, but I have also been worried about the possible editing/errata issues.  Knowing that you are on top of it, and willing to communicate with the masses, has invigorated my confidence in WotC.

Thank you.


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## N0Man (May 14, 2008)

Fantastic!  Glad to hear these clarifications.   I'm planning on picking this book up next week and running it the following weekend.

Though the other players might be a tad envious that the half-elf will get to throw in an extra power of their *choice*.

I'm still curious about the missing cantrip though.

And as far as the DDI updates next week, is there any possible chance that we could see a few additional options?  Maybe like a sneak peak at a few new Feats or Powers we can pick from to allow players a few options (substitutions) that aren't in the module?  That would be outstanding.


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## lightblade (May 15, 2008)

N0Man said:
			
		

> I'm still curious about the missing cantrip though.
> 
> And as far as the DDI updates next week, is there any possible chance that we could see a few additional options?  Maybe like a sneak peak at a few new Feats or Powers we can pick from to allow players a few options (substitutions) that aren't in the module?  That would be outstanding.




I bet the third cantrip was omitted for the same reason the half-elf's power was left out: not enough space on the character sheet.

Also; there have been enough tidbits released to make subsitutions w/o needing a DDI article.  The DDXP characters; perhaps some of the basic multiclass feats, the Ampersand article on rogues: they all provide some customization options.


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## Brian888 (May 16, 2008)

Having flipped through the adventure now, it looks great overall!  Good job!  

There's only one encounter that concerns me:

[sblock]Encounter A3, the Kobold Lair (Inside), is a Level 6 Encounter.  However, the players easily can get sent to this encounter when they're all still level 1, in which case it looks like they'll get spanked hard.  Any suggestions on how to ease up on the encounter a little?[/sblock]


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## Family (May 16, 2008)

Brian888 said:
			
		

> Any suggestions on how to ease up on the encounter a little?




Manipulate/rally/bribe the townsfolk to pitchfork and torch their way inside first...

Smoke them out, then bottleneck them...

Don't go there...

Bribe the DM...


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## Scott_Rouse (May 16, 2008)

Brian888 said:
			
		

> Having flipped through the adventure now, it looks great overall!  Good job!
> 
> There's only one encounter that concerns me:
> 
> Any suggestions on how to ease up on the encounter a little?




6th PC just added to module BTW it's a Monk:
[sblock]






 [/sblock]

Even without a 6th PC you should be fine in the encounter... unless you all die. 

IMO this is not the hardest 1st level encounter in the module.


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## Engilbrand (May 16, 2008)

Rouse Wins The Thread!!


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## Cam Banks (May 16, 2008)

I just wanted to state here for the record that Chuck Norris is a Skrull. That is all.

Cheers,
Cam


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## UngeheuerLich (May 16, 2008)

Scott_Rouse said:
			
		

> 6th PC just added to module BTW it's a Monk:
> [sblock]
> 
> 
> ...




And once again, we will see threads everywhere, how imbalanced monks will be...


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## Family (May 16, 2008)

Rouse is hereby officially the end boss of the Internets!


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## NMcCoy (May 16, 2008)

My group keeps getting TPKd by the Rouse in the surprise round.


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## Duelpersonality (May 16, 2008)

Family said:
			
		

> Rouse is hereby officially the end boss of the Internets!



So will our browsers start to sink if we beat him?


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## Family (May 16, 2008)

That's a mighty big "If" there.

Do you have an Epic Destiny yet?


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## Charwoman Gene (May 16, 2008)

Scott Rouse is actually Chuck Norris in disguise.


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## Duelpersonality (May 16, 2008)

That depends.  Is there a "so decrepit that you need a new pair of knees and hip by 26" epic destiny, or is that just a paragon path?


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## Brown Jenkin (May 16, 2008)

So is that why the Monk is not in the PHB. If one was in the party they wouldn't need anyone else, and they would win all the fights even with one arm tied behind their back.


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## Scott_Rouse (May 16, 2008)

Brown Jenkin said:
			
		

> So is that why the Monk is not in the PHB. If one was in the party they wouldn't need anyone else, and they would win all the fights even with one arm tied behind their back.




Busted. Yes we are still trying to nerf the monk. Top men are working on it.


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## Riley (May 16, 2008)

"Who?"

"Top. Men."


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## Duelpersonality (May 16, 2008)

Riley said:
			
		

> "Who?"
> 
> "Top. Men."



ARG!  So...much...Indy...


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## AZRogue (May 16, 2008)

It's nice that WotC came in to clarify things. Little things like that count. In a fit of good will I even pre-ordered the module, even though I won't run it and will just read it to mine for ideas for the adventure I'm writing myself. I'm sentimental.


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## Boarstorm (May 16, 2008)

In case you guys missed it:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=226341

Err... rather, how about a link to the article directly?  Scroll down to the bottom half of the page.

http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1387


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## Riley (May 16, 2008)

Duelpersonality said:
			
		

> ARG!  So...much...Indy...




Yes, but with 100% less LaBeouf!


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## zoroaster100 (May 18, 2008)

One thing that still confuses me about the KoTS half-elf cleric: why is Healing Word listed as only curing healing surge plus 1d6?  Even someone who read the Player's Handbook for a few minutes today reported that Healing Word did healing surge plus 1d6 plus ability modifier of healing.  Is this a typo, or was this changed in the rules after D&D Experience and the person who read the PHB today made a mistake?


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## Cadfan (May 18, 2008)

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> One thing that still confuses me about the KoTS half-elf cleric: why is Healing Word listed as only curing healing surge plus 1d6?  Even someone who read the Player's Handbook for a few minutes today reported that Healing Word did healing surge plus 1d6 plus ability modifier of healing.  Is this a typo, or was this changed in the rules after D&D Experience and the person who read the PHB today made a mistake?



The half-elf had a special ability that made all of his healing abilities heal +cha in hit points.  Its listed separately, probably because it applies to several other powers.


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