# Batgirl movie cancelled



## Henadic Theologian (Aug 3, 2022)

It's sucks, I feel bad for those involved, I hear the Directors were good fellows who did Bad Boys 3. 

 I don't know what went wrong.


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## R_J_K75 (Aug 3, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> It's sucks, I feel bad for those involved, I hear the Directors were good fellows who did Bad Boys 3.
> 
> I don't know what went wrong.



I read earlier it was over budget and the studio felt they'd never make their money back or even close, so they decided to cut their losses. I read the movie was finished so I'm assuming that means post-production too but not sure. Something seems odd because if they released it in theaters and on HBO Max they'd at least make some money back I'd think.


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## billd91 (Aug 3, 2022)

There's some coverage here: The Dish: What’s Behind The ‘Batgirl’ & ‘Scoob!’ Discard? David Zaslav’s Abject Rejection Of Jason Kilar’s HBO Max Strategy

Basically, it comes mainly down to 2 reasons:
1) The current regime in charge wants to repudiate the outgoing regime's strategy of putting things out on HBO's streaming service
2) Because of the recent merger, they have an opportunity to shed some projects for advantageous tax write offs they apparently can't get or won't be as sweet if they try to make some of their money back by completing the projects. This applies to both Batgirl, which is still in post-production, and Scoob. This opportunity expires in a couple of weeks.


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## John R Davis (Aug 3, 2022)

I thought the preview reviews were not good


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## R_J_K75 (Aug 3, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> I thought the preview reviews were not good



By whose standards though? Some random critics and movie goers?  I never pay attention to what these people say. I just think Waner/DC are just mis-managed.


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## billd91 (Aug 3, 2022)

John R Davis said:


> I thought the preview reviews were not good



That's the narrative that the New York Post is spinning. The Deadline article contradicts that claim.


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## Mirtek (Aug 3, 2022)

Maybe that is a brilliant guerrilla marketing move.

The movie is so bad they'd never get their money back after the first weekend once the people find out. Now the cancel it, has the fans start petitions to get it released, they let them win and then all those fans who participated in the petition will go to see it to savor their win


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## Yora (Aug 4, 2022)

It's not about being over budget, but about throwing good money after bad.

I've read the movie was already well into editing with some kind of rough cut existing. I don't think the costs for letting the editors finish and getting the thing scored can't be that great compared to th costs of filming. But there's still all the costs for distribution and marketing ahead. If they think the potential profits of the movie are lower than those costs, then cutting the losses now is the reasonable step.
They also need to be concerned about brand reputation. If this movie gets torn to pieces for being awful, it could very well support opinions that the time of superhero movies is at an end and they are now throwing out cheap trash to squeeze the last money out of them before they give up on these movies completely. Even if a release would make the movie break even, it could hurt future ticket sales.

And from what I've read in the past, canning almost complete movies isn't that unusual. Happens all the time, though usually to productions without large numbers of fans anticipating them.


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## amethal (Aug 4, 2022)

billd91 said:


> 2) Because of the recent merger, they have an opportunity to shed some projects for advantageous tax write offs they apparently can't get or won't be as sweet if they try to make some of their money back by completing the projects. This applies to both Batgirl, which is still in post-production, and Scoob. This opportunity expires in a couple of weeks.



There's some very strange rules in the US tax system, if that's the case. I'm sure the intention was not to incentivise NOT releasing films.

Still, Hollywood seems to live in a world of its own when it comes to accounting, since none of the films ever make a profit (hence big stars insisting on a share of the gross, rather than the net). Anywhere else that would be false accounting and/or fraud. So I guess nothing should surprise me.


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## Yora (Aug 4, 2022)

Nah, amazon never makes any profits either.

Taxes are for poor people.


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## amethal (Aug 4, 2022)

Yora said:


> Nah, amazon never makes any profits either.
> 
> Taxes are for poor people.



Amazon etc. make lots of profits, but move them to places where they don't have to pay tax on them. Seems like it's the same thing, but it isn't.


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## billd91 (Aug 4, 2022)

amethal said:


> There's some very strange rules in the US tax system, if that's the case. I'm sure the intention was not to incentivise NOT releasing films.
> 
> Still, Hollywood seems to live in a world of its own when it comes to accounting, since none of the films ever make a profit (hence big stars insisting on a share of the gross, rather than the net). Anywhere else that would be false accounting and/or fraud. So I guess nothing should surprise me.



I don't think it's just Hollywood here. I think, in this case, it's a way for companies that go through structural changes - mergers, acquisitions - to obtain some tax benefit from stopping incomplete projects previously initiated by one of the partners in the merger or the acquired company. I can see some practical benefit of taking such a step, but, yeah, that kind of tax rule indicates how preferential the tax code can be toward corporations and their interests and methods. But I suspect that it's not just the US tax system that offers similar benefits considering how pro-corporation plenty of other governments are.


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## Mallus (Aug 4, 2022)

I wasn't interested until I read about the cancellation and found out the directors worked on Ms. Marvel. Now I'm disappointed! Ms. Marvel had the kind of visual style/distinctiveness the Disney/Marvel needs a lot more of. 

I'm also kinda worried because HBOMax is a great service with a broad library of TV & film, original and archival. I'd rather it not be slashed to bits by corporate cost-cutting.


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## Hex08 (Aug 4, 2022)

While


R_J_K75 said:


> By whose standards though? Some random critics and movie goers?  I never pay attention to what these people say. I just think Waner/DC are just mis-managed.



If the poor reviews are truly part of the reason, and considering the company's silence on this we will never know, test screenings are common to gauge audience reactions and will frequently prompt reshoots/rewrites and further test screenings. This means, for better or for worse, everyone who sees a movie is impacted by those reviews.

I think your point about DC properties being mismanaged is spot on. Warner Bros bought DC in 1969 and other than Batman and Superman they never had a successful superhero movie and rarely tried to get other properties to the big screen. Marvel, on the other hand, got the MCU started before it was bought out by Disney. Warner should have started the superhero movie craze and failed miserably, after all DC was owned by a media giant long before Marvel. As Warner has changed hands these past few years; from being bought out by AT&T and then the Discovery merger nothing has improved (although AT&T at least seemed to have a plan). Now it looks like HBO Max may leave behind scripted TV altogether.

I would have watched Batgirl because I love superheroes but I wasn't excited about it. Instead, we are getting a Flash movie headlined by the train wreck that is Ezra Miller (I kind of feel bad for this actor, they have serious issues that need worked on) and a Black Adam movie headlined by Dwayne Johnson who thinks bicep size equals acting talent. Considering what's coming down the line I would much rather have watched Batgirl than either Flash or Black Adam.


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## wicked cool (Aug 4, 2022)

money talks. if they thought the movie stunk but would make money they would release it . its not the only rumored show that might get cut (last of us and a few others). 

They dont want to do what netflix did and greenlight a bunch of stuff and then lose money. That got Netflix in a lot of financial trouble

the reviews good or bad are irrelevant when you are talking that kind of money. 

i think its a brilliant move


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## R_J_K75 (Aug 4, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Considering what's coming down the line I would much rather have watched Batgirl than either Flash or Black Adam.



That was a great summation. I didnt realize that Warner had the rights for so long. DC v. Marvel, I couldnt pick. But yeah, I'd at least be a VOD purchaser for Batgirl.


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## Zaukrie (Aug 4, 2022)

It is amazing how bad they've been at DC movies. There are so many good stories.....


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## FitzTheRuke (Aug 4, 2022)

I suspect that the movie is not particularly good, but not so bad it should be cancelled. I just think that they had their accountants do the math, and found that they'd save more money by cancelling it than they'd make by releasing it (based on expectations, which could be better, or could be _worse_ and nobody really knows). The tax break was a sure thing.


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## Hex08 (Aug 4, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> money talks. if they thought the movie stunk but would make money they would release it . its not the only rumored show that might get cut (last of us and a few others).
> 
> They dont want to do what netflix did and greenlight a bunch of stuff and then lose money. That got Netflix in a lot of financial trouble
> 
> ...



I have to disagree. Crappy movies get released all of the time and the studios can't be blind to how bad they are and that they won't make a profit. From what I've been reading Batgirl has the largest or one of the largest financial investments (90 million dollars or more) to not be released, it seems unprecedented. Couple that with the bad press around Ezra Miller and I doubt it's a profit motive decision because as it stands Flash probably won't put up the numbers it might have a few years ago.


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## FitzTheRuke (Aug 4, 2022)

The funny thing is, I had zero interest in this movie. The more I read about it being cancelled, the more I kinda want to see it.


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## Deset Gled (Aug 4, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> I suspect that the movie is not particularly good, but not so bad it should be cancelled.




I don't think we can be sure of that.  Does anyone remember Catwoman?  I would say that's a movie so bad it should have been cancelled.  How it got that far despite it's quality, I don't know.  But it happened.

Can you imagine how bad it would be for the DC extended universe if Catwoman was released before Justice League?  It could kill the momentum of the franchise that many people already view as second tier.  Sure, the studio would manage to salvage a few bucks by releasing the movie.  But the damage to the franchise could have been much greater than any money they managed to save.  Especially depending on how much the content of Batgirl plays into the rest of the Batman and DC continuity.

From a certain point of view, this could be changing point for the DC EU.  The day where someone near the top finally said "Stop pushing garbage out the door just for the sake of making movies, and try to make this universe work for a change!  No more Suicide Squads, no more movies that require multiple directors and releases."  It's not likely.  But it's possible.


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## doctorbadwolf (Aug 4, 2022)

Yora said:


> Nah, amazon never makes any profits either.
> 
> Taxes are for poor people.



As are tax audits, as it happens. They take less work hours for small time people with discrepancies, and the IRS has to show that they’re fighting tax fraud, so they get as many “resolved” audits as they can, which means most audits are for people that make less than half a mil a year.


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## GreyLord (Aug 4, 2022)

I don't really care that Scoob! got cancelled.  I'd REALLY have wanted to watch the Batgirl movie from what I had heard about it.  

They should at least do a quick post job and put it on streaming.


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## Umbran (Aug 4, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> They should at least do a quick post job and put it on streaming.




Part of the point seems to be that they don't want to be in the business of making streaming content.  The streaming services are an afterlife for them, not a primary target.


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## GreyLord (Aug 4, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Part of the point seems to be that they don't want to be in the business of making streaming content.  The streaming services are an afterlife for them, not a primary target.




It's just the disappointment being expressed by someone (me) who was thinking they'd go see it and would still want to see it somehow or someway.


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## Hex08 (Aug 4, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Part of the point seems to be that they don't want to be in the business of making streaming content.  The streaming services are an afterlife for them, not a primary target.



I was very surprised to see that HBO Max may be exiting scripted content. I don't have it but everything I hear is that it puts out good stuff. I guess just putting that investment into HBO is a way around that but then how do they justify the cost of HBO Max? Does the price drop? Does it become free with HBO?


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## Umbran (Aug 4, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> It's just the disappointment being expressed by someone (me) who was thinking they'd go see it and would still want to see it somehow or someway.




I understand.  But, as consumers, knowing why they are doing this is important to setting expectations for their future behavior.

Personally, I think it is a reactionary move hoping to return to a status quo that we have likely lost, much like a post-pandemic company going back to having everyone in the same physical office every day, even when that's not really more productive.


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## wicked cool (Aug 4, 2022)

appears the tax right off is better than the profits that this movie wasnt going to make. same with scooby doo spinoff thing. Smart . I wonder if the tax loophole was something that was done recently 

i wonder if they will sit on the flash and hope Ezra gets image fixed (sort of like Depp)


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## Deset Gled (Aug 4, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> It's just the disappointment being expressed by someone (me) who was thinking they'd go see it and would still want to see it somehow or someway.




On a related note, I'd really like to see Star Wars Detours some day.









						Star Wars Detours - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## FitzTheRuke (Aug 4, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> From a certain point of view, this could be changing point for the DC EU.  The day where someone near the top finally said "Stop pushing garbage out the door just for the sake of making movies, and try to make this universe work for a change!  No more Suicide Squads, no more movies that require multiple directors and releases."  It's not likely.  But it's possible.




Yeah, I'd like to _think_ it's that. Sadly more likely to be a tax-grab, but hopefully we'll see better movies from them in the future, either way.


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## Deset Gled (Aug 4, 2022)

FitzTheRuke said:


> Yeah, I'd like to _think_ it's that. Sadly more likely to be a tax-grab, but hopefully we'll see better movies from them in the future, either way.




This thread has lots of people talking about taxes.  Not a single explanation or link about what that actually means...


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## trappedslider (Aug 4, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> This thread has lots of people talking about taxes.  Not a single explanation or link about what that actually means...











						Why did Warner Brothers kill a $90 million Batgirl movie starring Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne? A big tax write-off probably isn’t the only reason
					

While Warner Bros. says the decision to call off the $90 million Batgirl is due to its recent merger with Discovery, a tax attorney says there's likely more to the story.




					fortune.com
				




When Warner Bros. files its taxes this year, explains Blum, the company will combine the income from its profitable movies with its losses to determine its taxable income. The loss from _Batgirl _would lower that taxable income significantly.


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## GreyLord (Aug 4, 2022)

I've been looking up on this, and THIS entire situation looks bad.

I don't know HOW this merger even got approved.  If people own stock in WB, they SHOULD be absolutely furious at this point.  Enough to sue Discovery to the ground and undo the merger.

The CEO of Discovery is using this as a prop for Discovery (a no name channel which doesn't have half the brand recognition in my opinion that HBO/WB does) with NO benefit to HBO or WB.

He is cancelling out all the unique shows for HBO Max for the most part in favor of HBO Prime (70 million for max vs. 24 million for Prime...WTH is this guy on) and will mostly have the shows that survive seemingly be moving to Discovery+ (what, and their 20K paying subscribers as opposed to the others who they get no money from?)

He seems to subscribe to the same algorithm models that sunk other channels that went with this idea...which works when you only have a small budget channel for a very small subscriber base...but he's killing whatever worth HBO and WB have overall.

This stock should plummet over the next month if what I'm reading is correct.  This guy is BAD news.  He's going to sink an entire brand quicker than you can say lickity split!

Unique programming that HBO is famous for is moving to only be on the 24 million subscriber channel on Cable, with them basically going all in on the 20K (just a guess) paying (vs non-paying around 24 million) subscriber streaming channel of Discovery+ and gutting the 70 million subscriber channel of HBO max.

Who in their right mind okay'd this???

Glad I don't own stock in WB right now.  This seems like someone intentionally destroying WB and HBO in hopes that they can prop up their own small channel empire.

In a year, if it turns out as bad is it may, if there is someway the stockholders can sue the living bejebus out of this CEO for everything he had for wasting and running their money down the tubes...they should.

I don't see him getting back that 3-7 Billion they went into debt over this for, even with the tax cuts they'll get.  It APPEARS that he is going for financial suicide or something.  I can't see how this was approved, but maybe there is some golden lining that will come out tomorrow when they talk about it.

PS - They are going to kill most of the shows on HBO MAX, remove a LOT of the current content, and new content will be a lot of reality based shows.  I don't think they understand the current streaming audiences of today nor what HBO max could have as value, even if they didn't touch a thing and just left it as it was, it would generate more money then what I'm hearing of Discovery's current plan for it.


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## Hex08 (Aug 4, 2022)

The thing is, whether it's taxes, poor reactions at screenings, a business model shift or a command by alien overlords it's all speculation since the company is remaining quiet. Unless Warner Bros Discovery (or whatever the name of the new company is) actually gives statement we will never know.


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## Hex08 (Aug 4, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> I don't know HOW this merger even got approved.



Because this is modern America, do we ever NOT approve a merger anymore?


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## GreyLord (Aug 4, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Because this is modern America, do we ever NOT approve a merger anymore?




I think there is supposed to be a comment on the plan going forward tomorrow from what I've been reading online.

It's not that merger's don't get approved, but normally mergers are beneficial to BOTH sides.  This one seems to be parasitical.

Unless the shareholders as a group were all planning to sell their shares in the next few weeks and abandon ship as a whole, normally driving a company to the ground in a spasmodically short period of time is NOT what they sign up for or what they want.  They want annual profits.  Not a quick flash in the bang which brings a very quick (and normally lower than annual) profit.

This guy looks like he's going to take a potential company that has more income coming in than Discovery by several times (the problem isn't how much it's making, but how much they were spending which was more than HBO max was bringing in), and drive it to the ground.  They paid Billions for this (which most shareholders haven't probably seen yet, and transfers to a debt for the company that bought it).  Even with the Tax write offs, they can transform 4 Billion of it probably into something that is no longer owed, but still be 3 Billion in debt perhaps from what I'm reading.  If you KILL the profit generation of the company you bought, you then still owe that money.

You don't waste a company bringing in a Billion a year (sure, that's going to take several years to make it up, but that's why you pay the high up front cost) to try to prop up a subsidiary company that is making 100 million a year.

But that's exactly what it appears this guy is doing.  He should have a extract point in his contract for the 250 million he just earned for getting this merger that if he burns the companies within the next two years, he OWES double that.  But of course that's never what these CEO's get, they all get golden parachutes.

Unless they start talking some golden plan, with the most recent moves and announcements, I'm going to say I'm going to start seeing a sell off of the stock, and perhaps a big crash for that company in the next 6 months. 

BUT, I guess everyone will see (as long as they follow through with their statements to talk about it soon) in the next few days whether there is some smarter master plan or not. (edit - The strategy call for the media is tomorrow afternoon).

If not, I expect some major rumblings from the big stockholders coming soon against this guy or the moves he is making.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Aug 4, 2022)

Is this just getting a lot of coverage because superhero movies are the hot thing lately? Plenty of movies get shelved, temporarily or permanently, every year and there is barely a peep about any of them from the Press.


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## Hex08 (Aug 4, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> I think there is supposed to be a comment on the plan going forward tomorrow from what I've been reading online.
> 
> It's not that merger's don't get approved, but normally mergers are beneficial to BOTH sides.  This one seems to be parasitical.
> 
> ...



I get with what you are saying and agree this is a dumpster fire (it was ever since AT&T purchased Warner Bros in my book). Maybe I am cynical, but all modern mergers are parasitical in my view. Take AT&T's purchase of Warner as an example. AT&T promised the government lower prices if the merger was approved but within weeks of it closing they raised prices, and nothing was or could be done.

I can see ways where this becomes a win for the new company. They move scripted content to HBO but if you want to stream it you have to pay for the HBO Max app. Otherwise, they do what Discovery does best, produce tons of inexpensive scripted reality TV shows that the general public eats up and is hugely profitable. The advantage is the quality HBO shows and the garbage Discovery shows are now both available on HBO Max (or whatever the combined Discovery+/HBO Max app becomes) at an inflated subscription price and audiences of Prestige TV and reality TV will now have a one-stop shop app.


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## Hex08 (Aug 4, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Is this just getting a lot of coverage because superhero movies are the hot thing lately? Plenty of movies get shelved, temporarily or permanently, every year and there is barely a peep about any of them from the Press.



Partially that I think. Also because the actress is Dominican (maybe?) so it shut down a non-white superhero movie, it had Michaeel Keaton as Batman (still a popular move) and it really did seem to be a big part of AT&T/Warners plans to have the DCEU spread across cinematic releases and straight to streaming. From reports there was already 90+ million spent on this movie that was in post-production. Plus, we nerds get pissed easily


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## trappedslider (Aug 4, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Is this just getting a lot of coverage because superhero movies are the hot thing lately? Plenty of movies get shelved, temporarily or permanently, every year and there is barely a peep about any of them from the Press.



It's notable because it was in post-production, and it was already delayed due to covid and was also slated to be released this year. Also 

And now it looks like Supergirl has also gotten the Axe and the House Party reboot which was supposed to have been released last week has either been shelved or moved to be shown in theaters instead.


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## Hex08 (Aug 5, 2022)

Here are a couple articles that shed some light on the topic:








						Warner Bros. CEO David Zaslav Explains Why They Killed 'Batgirl'
					

'Batgirl' was among films that don’t fit WB’s new focus on maximizing their financial returns.




					collider.com
				












						New Warner Bros. CEO David Zaslav Announces 10-Year Plan For DC Movies
					

"It’s very similar to the structure that Alan Horne and Bob Iger put together very effectively with Kevin Feige at Disney."




					collider.com


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## Parmandur (Aug 5, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> I don't really care that Scoob! got cancelled.  I'd REALLY have wanted to watch the Batgirl movie from what I had heard about it.
> 
> They should at least do a quick post job and put it on streaming.



Thing is they only that $90 million tax deduction if they bury the film.


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## GreyLord (Aug 5, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Here are a couple articles that shed some light on the topic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




He's already starting off on a BAD foot and bad footing.  He's already deviated from the set path Feige set forth...which is...KEEP GOOD WILL WITH THE FANS.

I think he's made more people upset with cancelling Batgirl than he understands, and his statements about Snyder probably has gotten him some even MORE ill will.

With such mis-steps right off the bat, I think he has a massive PR problem of his own causing right now.  Sometimes keeping that 100 million (yes, 90 million to make so far, but it will take a few more million to be ready I imagine) is better for LONG term profit and PR than a short term tax break.

It's like 4e.  Setting forth that new plan and new way to do things, but they started off on the wrong foot right off the bat.

Anecdotal, but I know I have gotten all the DC stuff in streaming, dvd, blu ray, gone to see it in theaters, gotten the merch.  He's made ME skeptical...and when you upset those who are the bigger supporters, sometimes that's a very bad move.

That's why with 5e, it didn't matter what they actually were doing or did, with PR they ALWAYS tried to appeal to the hardcore fans and older fans, because many times where they lead, others will follow.

Quality movies are good.  Creating BAD PR about things is NEVER a good move.

The next step is to build off the niche.  Fiege was a fan already, and saw areas from Marvel that no one else wanted and built them up to be things that everyone desired.  DC still has it's biggest properties, so in theory, it should be even easier for DC to pull of a Marvel...but not when you are telling old DC fans that you don't want their stuff, and by default, don't want them.

Thoughts are that he's going to cancel the ONLY GOOD part of DC that was actually being rather successful (We'll see, but thoughts are blazing right now that they only have another season...if that) which is the arrow verse and it's extensions...which right now would be the Superman and Lois show and Stargirl.

Edit:  Reading someone who reported on the earnings call today.  The CEO is also planning on following in Netflix's steps (yes, the steps Netflix has taken which seem to be losing subscribers and gained a lot of ill will towards it recently) in putting ads into HBO's services...and similarly to Netflix, have different levels of how many ads you get depending on how much you pay them.

He thinks this move will gain Discovery+ 40 million more subs (We'll see, I think in a pig's eye...but we'll see).

Only thing I think he was right on was the overspending on the stream vs. what the income they were getting back was.  But, there are many things I don't like about this plan.

One other item, that it sounds like.  Beyond the cost of what they paid for the merger, it seems like they have 53 Billion in long term debt.  Leveraged to or around 500%?  I see why AT&T offloaded it.  Discovery better make some money or this will be like a slow sinking titanic.

Then again, I'm not the core group he's trying to appeal to there.  I'm not a stock holder, I don't have any monetary investments with them, soooo....


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## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> I think he's made more people upset with cancelling Batgirl than he understands, and his statements about Snyder probably has gotten him some even MORE ill will.



"In a telling sign of how far the studio is looking to distance itself from Snyder, a source says documentary filmmaker Leslie Iwerks recently asked to license clips from the 2021 _Justice League_ for a film on the history of DC and was told there is only one _Justice League_: the 2017 incarnation."









						'Batgirl' Blindside: Why Warner Bros. Decided to Pull the Plug
					

One source says test audiences thought the movie “was like a bad TV show” — and another says a planned Supergirl feature could be next on the chopping block




					au.rollingstone.com
				




They have also canceled whatever spin from GoT was in the works with Naomi watts


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## Mercurius (Aug 5, 2022)

Does this mean I better catch up on Westworld?


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## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)




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## Hex08 (Aug 5, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> He's already starting off on a BAD foot and bad footing.  He's already deviated from the set path Feige set forth...which is...KEEP GOOD WILL WITH THE FANS.
> 
> I think he's made more people upset with cancelling Batgirl than he understands, and his statements about Snyder probably has gotten him some even MORE ill will.
> 
> ...



I think you are overestimating the importance of Batgirl. Sure, communities like this one (and only a portion of this board are probably comics geeks) are aware of what's going on but I doubt the average movie goer knows or cares. The only article I have read about how well it did with test audiences is this one and according to it Batgirl performed badly. Granted, in most circumstances, based on the monetary investment, it would have been released under most circumstances but, since it's a new company the vision has changed. I get it, even if I don't agree with it.

I feel like this is a repeat of the Snyder stuff. A vocal minority screamed until they got what they wanted (granted, a pretty good 4+ hour movie) but, once again, the average viewer didn't probably care, it was just another overly long superhero movie.

In the end no DC movies under the current owners have been released so we have little to base an opinion on (other than a willingness to release Ezra "train wreck" Miller's Flash).

.....I can't believe I am defending this .....


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## Hex08 (Aug 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> View attachment 256537



Is that supposed to be pro-Batgirl or anti-Morbius because if that's the comparison let Batgirl rot.


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## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> Is that supposed to be pro-Batgirl or anti-Morbius because if that's the comparison let Batgirl rot.



I'm guessing it's meant to be pro-sony who doesn't care how bad a movie,it's getting released lol


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## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I feel like this is a repeat of the Snyder stuff. A vocal minority screamed until they got what they wanted (granted, a pretty good 4+ hour movie) but, once again, the average viewer didn't probably care, it was just another overly long superhero movie.



Turns out a chunk of that vocal minority (myself included) was made up of bots








						Exclusive: Fake Accounts Fueled the 'Snyder Cut' Online Army
					

A WarnerMedia report reveals that bots and other inauthentic users bolstered the fan-led campaign for director Zack Snyder’s Justice League do-over




					www.rollingstone.com


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## amethal (Aug 5, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Thing is they only that $90 million tax deduction if they bury the film.



That can't be right. 

I'll accept that they get the tax deduction *earlier* if they bury the film, but the cost of making the film has to be deductible eventually.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Aug 5, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> On a related note, I'd really like to see Star Wars Detours some day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





amethal said:


> That can't be right.
> 
> I'll accept that they get the tax deduction *earlier* if they bury the film, but the cost of making the film has to be deductible eventually.




 Yeah I'm not buying the whole tax write off thing, your not going to save enough money to make up for not releasing the movie at all.

 No the truth is this is to save the brand from a movie audiences will hate, same reason Supergirl got cancelled as well am the Flash is likely next on the chopping block.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

amethal said:


> That can't be right.
> 
> I'll accept that they get the tax deduction *earlier* if they bury the film, but the cost of making the film has to be deductible eventually.






Henadic Theologian said:


> Yeah I'm not buying the whole tax write off thing, your not going to save enough money to make up for not releasing the movie at all.
> 
> No the truth is this is to save the brand from a movie audiences will hate, same reason Supergirl got cancelled as well am the Flash is likely next on the chopping block.



did no one read the article I posted that has a tax guy explaining it?



> When Warner Bros. files its taxes this year, explains Blum, the company will combine the income from its profitable movies with its losses to determine its taxable income. The loss from _Batgirl _would lower that taxable income significantly.
> 
> “If they were to write this off as a worthless investment, they get a deduction,” says Blum. “It’s like a business venture that fails.”
> 
> Writing the entire production off as a loss, and using that loss to offset gains from successful productions, Blum says, is likely the easiest path forward for the company to reach a financially sound conclusion for the film.












						Why did Warner Brothers kill a $90 million Batgirl movie starring Michael Keaton as Bruce Wayne? A big tax write-off probably isn’t the only reason
					

While Warner Bros. says the decision to call off the $90 million Batgirl is due to its recent merger with Discovery, a tax attorney says there's likely more to the story.




					fortune.com


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

Simu Liu pokes fun of WBD’s canceling of projects


----------



## amethal (Aug 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> did no one read the article I posted that has a tax guy explaining it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That link doesn't explain why the cost of making the movie isn't deductible anyway, even if they release it. 

If you are in the business of selling movies then the cost of making them is clearly an allowable business expense. 

I can speculate that not releasing the movie allows them to claim the loss earlier; maybe they have profits this year to offset the loss against and they are not sure that will apply next year (the jurisdictions I am familiar with would allow them to carry the losses forward to future years, until they made a profit to offset them against, but maybe the notoriously corporation-friendly US tax system doesn't do that?)

It's very hard for non-Americans like me to make any sense of the US tax system, partly because it is very complicated and partly because it never seems to be explained (or is flat out explained wrong - like the classic "it's tax deductible so it doesn't cost them anything" which is only true if tax is being paid at the rate of 100%).


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

amethal said:


> That link doesn't explain why the cost of making the movie isn't deductible anyway, even if they release it.



They cut their losses because the costs of distribution and marketing would add millions to its budget, which is currently at or around 90 million.



amethal said:


> It's very hard for non-Americans like me to make any sense of the US tax system, partly because it is very complicated and partly because it never seems to be explained (or is flat out explained wrong - like the classic "it's tax deductible so it doesn't cost them anything" which is only true if tax is being paid at the rate of 100%).



you'd honestly be amazed at the list of things that are tax deductible in the US if you can claim them as work-related expenses like an actual watch for example. (not joking, I was in an IRS office and read one of the booklets lol)


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

Warner Bros. Discovery Reveals DCEU 10 Year Plan Inspired By Kevin Feige's MCU
					

After years trying to play down direct comparisons, Warner Bros. Discovery are now looking to emulate the MCU with a 10 year DCEU plan.




					movieweb.com
				






> "Our ambition is to bring Warners back and to produce great high quality films, and as we look at the opportunities that we have broadly, DC is one of the top of the list for us. You look at Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Aquaman — these are brands that are known everywhere in the world. The ability to drive those all over the world with great story is a big opportunity for us. We have done a reset. We've restructured the business. We're going to focus.
> 
> There will be a team with a 10-year plan focusing just on DC. It's very similar to the structure that Alan Horn and Bob Iger put together, very effectively, with Kevin Feige at Disney," he added. "We think that we could build a long-term much stronger, sustainable growth business out of DC. And as part of that, we're going to focus on quality. We're not going to release any film before it's ready. We're not going to release a film to make a quarter. We're not going to release a film unless the focus is going to be, 'How do we make each of these films in general as good as possible?' But DC is something that we think we could make better and we're focused on it now. We have some great DC films coming up — Black Adam, Shazam, and Flash – and we're working on all of those. We're very excited about them."


----------



## wicked cool (Aug 5, 2022)

GreyLord said:


> He's already starting off on a BAD foot and bad footing.  He's already deviated from the set path Feige set forth...which is...KEEP GOOD WILL WITH THE FANS.
> 
> I think he's made more people upset with cancelling Batgirl than he understands, and his statements about Snyder probably has gotten him some even MORE ill will.
> 
> ...



strongly disagree-cancelling batgirl with have little backlash in the long run, Same with the scooby doo and every GOT spinoff that wasnt fully made etc. 

Do you remember when the tv show Jericho got cancelled? there was an actual movement as people were upset. they sent tons of "nuts" to abc. In the long run nobody stopped watching abc  (well until streaming but thats a different argument)  

Amazon has greenlit 3 seasons of wheel of time for big money . Season 1 wasnt very good. in the long run if they cancelled it i dont think there will be any backlash. the show makes very little buzz 


Up until this point ive been happy with my hbo subscription. i added mine during covid and its provided me lots of entertainment . Netflix has problems because it  made huge investments in television that nobody was watching . Most of the WB DC shows are pure garbage and barely make ratings. Batwoman was probably the dumbest show on television


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

so, we'll get the Flash movie at some point despite Ezra making 2007 Britney look sane but not a spin-off








						Warner Bros. CEO tries to explain why The Flash is great but Batgirl had to die
					

David Zaslav is "excited" for Ezra Miller's superhero movie, despite every other Google result you'll get for "Ezra Miller" right now




					www.avclub.com
				




Some more highlights from that earning call:

- In the “Look forward to the future” for HBO Max and Discovery+, HBO Max’s section was entirely filled with Magnolia Network reality shows.

- HBO Max and Discovery+ are merging, but will use Discovery+’s tech as the base.

- Zaslav wants WBD to be “The fifth broadcast network.”

- Content, content, content, content. Content content? Content!

- HBO Max is male skewing, appointment television, scripted, and home of “fandoms.” Discovery+ is female-skewing, unscripted, “lean back” comfort viewing, and home of “genredoms.” This despite more men watching Discovery+ than HBO Max and more women watch HBO Max than Discovery+.

- In a slide with review quotes for the two services, HBO Max had two very detailed sentences from Vulture and CNet. Discovery+ had “An insane amount of content” from an IGN review and a 5-Star rating from the Apple App Store.

- HBO Max is going to see a massive reduction in costs for new stuff. Will apparently rely more on licensing outside properties than developing new projects. Basically confirmed that CW, TNT, and TBS will not have any more scripted original programming going forward, and also implied that they’ll get whatever scraps HBO doesn’t want.









						Warner Bros. Discovery Confirms Kids’ Content Cuts
					

Kids and animated content are set for a broad swath of cuts across Warner Bros. Discovery. Yesterday, Deadline revealed that HBO Max had canceled Ellen DeGeneres’ preschool series Little Ellen and …




					deadline.com
				












						Scoob!: Holiday Haunt writer says test audiences “dug” it
					

Big "ruh-roh" on this one for Warner Bros. Discovery




					www.avclub.com


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Turns out a chunk of that vocal minority (myself included) was made up of bots
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I mean, if the Snyder cut didn't get good viewership by WB's standard, I can imagine that heads would roll.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Turns out a chunk of that vocal minority (myself included) was made up of bots
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are a bot?


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 5, 2022)

amethal said:


> That can't be right.
> 
> I'll accept that they get the tax deduction *earlier* if they bury the film, but the cost of making the film has to be deductible eventually.



Tqx codes and film production are weird. But if they never make any money, they get more of it back. That's from the Deadline article.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> You are a bot?



As long as I keep passing those "select a sign" captchas I'm not.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Some more highlights from that earning call:




It is rare that you can see ineptitude like this playing out in real time.

Up until recently, I had often remarked that HBOMax was the best of the streaming services ... and with a little proper guidance, would likely be one of the big winners moving forward.

But this? Let's see ....

1. They've saddled the company with debt.
2. They've completely alienated creatives ... and CAA.
3. They appear to not understand their own audiences- the demographics or the desires.
4. They seem to have no idea what the HBO brand _means. _
5. Finally, they are pivoting hard to movie releases ... which is a choice, but could be done just as easily without starving the streaming service.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> You are a bot?



 Bee boop. Bzzzt No.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 5, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> As long as I keep passing those "select a sign" captchas I'm not.



You can pass those? I must be the bot!


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 5, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> It is rare that you can see ineptitude like this playing out in real time.
> 
> Up until recently, I had often remarked that HBOMax was the best of the streaming services ... and with a little proper guidance, would likely be one of the big winners moving forward.
> 
> ...



Didn't AT&T dump HBO because of its debt?
Didn't AT&T drive away long time HBO executives?
(Neither of those are intended to be disagreeable, just an observation about corporations acting like corporations)

Either way, in the age of always approved mergers to allow the creation of bigger and bigger corporations I think this kind of stuff is the new normal. It's only when already huge companies like Disney, Apple or Amazon enter the arena (streaming in this case) that they really seem to have a vision and stick to it. Otherwise, you get organizations that are often stepping outside their wheelhouse and playing whack-a-mole.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> You can pass those? I must be the bot!



I never see you at the planning meetings


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 5, 2022)

Marvel just keeps taking digs at  Discovery/Warner  
Ms. Marvel director Adil El Arbi shares a message of support Kevin Feige sent him and Bilall Fallah after Batgirl was canceled.


----------



## Eltab (Aug 6, 2022)

Among other things WBD is shaking up, CNN is being told to leave the opinions and get back to news.  Somebody at Discovery must have studied their historical (since 1990) ratings.

If I was billions of dollars in debt, I would be asking questions like "Will this project draw large audiences (and hence lots of money) or did it become something niche?" and "Is this project in our wheelhouse of what we do best, somewhere close, or a distance from our wheelhouse?"  With the idea we should do what we do best and profitably, not branch out with a lot of hard-to-predict experiments.



			
				If I Was The Evil Overlord said:
			
		

> Before I implement any plan, I will describe it to a 5-year-old.  Any flaws he finds will be fixed before I proceed.



Cancelling Batgirl may be in that line of reasoning.  I don't know what the problem was, but it must have been serious if WBD decided to scrap $90M of costs rather than try to salvage some of it.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 6, 2022)

Eltab said:


> Among other things WBD is shaking up, CNN is being told to leave the opinions and get back to news.  Somebody at Discovery must have studied their historical (since 1990) ratings.
> 
> If I was billions of dollars in debt, I would be asking questions like "Will this project draw large audiences (and hence lots of money) or did it become something niche?" and "Is this project in our wheelhouse of what we do best, somewhere close, or a distance from our wheelhouse?"  With the idea we should do what we do best and profitably, not branch out with a lot of hard-to-predict experiments.
> 
> ...




 CNN stuff? American news isn't great but CNN seems fairly bad.


----------



## bloodtide (Aug 6, 2022)

Has anyone mentioned the 800 pound gorilla?  That they got rid of Batgirl because it was to "new way" of making movies?  The "new way" has taken over movies for the last decade or two where some demand movies MUST be made in a diffrent new way that is nothing like old movies.

Quick recap:
Marvel phase 1-3 mostly classic "old way" and made tons and tons and tons of money
Marvel phase 4- er, well, ok, ish maybe..makes some money, but not as much as above

The vast bulk of DC movies-er, some, ok, maybe..makes some money, but not as much as above Marvel 1-3

So, someone might notice a pattern.  Just make a good classic old way movie, and make lots of money.  Anything else, and make less money.

And really, for DC this should not be hard.  They have some of the greatest fictional characters ever.  Batgirl year one would make a fine movie.  So would Blade from the Shadows.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 6, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> CNN stuff? American news isn't great but CNN seems fairly bad.



Not to derail the conversation, but compared to some of the alternatives, CNN isn't that bad.


			https://osf.io/jrw26/


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 6, 2022)

Eltab said:


> Cancelling Batgirl may be in that line of reasoning.  I don't know what the problem was, but it must have been serious if WBD decided to scrap $90M of costs rather than try to salvage some of it.



The problem was it was approved by the previous boss just like everything else the new boss is getting rid of or rearranging.


----------



## Nikosandros (Aug 6, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Has anyone mentioned the 800 pound gorilla?  That they got rid of Batgirl because it was to "new way" of making movies?  The "new way" has taken over movies for the last decade or two where some demand movies MUST be made in a diffrent new way that is nothing like old movies.



What is the "new way" of making movies?


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 6, 2022)

Nikosandros said:


> What is the "new way" of making movies?



I can only assume that this is an attempt to circumvent forum rules about politics.


----------



## bloodtide (Aug 8, 2022)

Nikosandros said:


> What is the "new way" of making movies?



Well, the classic way of making a movie is to just sit down and write/make a good movie.  You make a movie that you both like and think others will like, even more so the fans of whatever your making.  See, roughly, any movie made before 2000.

The new way is to make a message of a movie and worry about what every small group might say or think about everything.  Then try to make everything just right to make everyone happy, except the fans.

I think the big Eye Opener for Warner Brothers and DC Movies was Top Gun:Maverick.  Pure classic movie.  Made tons of money.  But then compare to all the DC not so great hits.  

And again, this should be so easy for DC.  They have a TON of lore and stories and characters to work with.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> I can only assume that this is an attempt to circumvent forum rules about politics.



And so is the explaination


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Well, the classic way of making a movie is to just sit down and write/make a good movie.  You make a movie that you both like and think others will like, even more so the fans of whatever your making.  See, roughly, any movie made before 2000.
> 
> The new way is to make a message of a movie and worry about what every small group might say or think about everything.  Then try to make everything just right to make everyone happy, except the fans.



I guess Brith of a Nation didn't have a message, nor did Triumph of the Will, Intolerance and that's just off the top of my head.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

The Canceled Batgirl Movie's Plot Revealed
					

The Batgirl movie has been abruptly and shockingly canceled, and now some details about what could have been are emerging.




					www.giantfreakinrobot.com
				




And this is how you drive away folks









						Exclusive: Harley Quinn, Doom Patrol, And Titans Likely Canceled
					

According to our trusted and proven sources, Harley Quinn, Doom Patrol, and Titans are all up next on the chopping block.




					www.giantfreakinrobot.com
				












						Exclusive: Green Lantern Show Dead At HBO Max
					

Sadly, we have to report Batgirl won't be the only DC victim of Warner Bros. Discovery. The Green Lantern HBO Max show is dead as well.




					www.giantfreakinrobot.com


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> The Canceled Batgirl Movie's Plot Revealed
> 
> 
> The Batgirl movie has been abruptly and shockingly canceled, and now some details about what could have been are emerging.
> ...



None of that would surprise me but I find Giant Freaking Robot to be a dubious source at times.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 8, 2022)

bloodtide said:


> Well, the classic way of making a movie is to just sit down and write/make a good movie.  You make a movie that you both like and think others will like, even more so the fans of whatever your making.  See, roughly, any movie made before 2000.
> 
> The new way is to make a message of a movie and worry about what every small group might say or think about everything.  Then try to make everything just right to make everyone happy, except the fans.
> 
> ...



*Mod Note:*

Youve been here long enough to know that “go woke, go broke”- regardless of how many different words you use to say it- is NOT acceptable.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 8, 2022)

New way of making movies is big budget with big marketing budget. Usually established franchises.

 Alot of those 80's movies for example adjusted for inflation were made for 50-100 million dollars now. Really big budget movies were exception not the rule eg Terminator 2. 

 Most if the Star Wars Films in the OT fall in the sub 100 million range adjusted for inflation. ANH was 7 million iirc no idea what that costs inflation adjusted. 

 So less variety outside of indie movies. The budget to film an 80's or 90's hit movie won't cover the marketing campaign now.

 If one had to guess a lot of these movies plus marketing budgets are probably unlikely to break 4-500 million which is now break even point for blockbuster type movies. 

 Rule of thumb apparently is production cost+marketing then double it for the box office.

 Star Wars and MCU films are looking at close to a billion break even point now.


----------



## Hades#2 (Aug 8, 2022)

I would rather have seen the Batgirl movie than The Flash. I was unimpressed with the Flash in Justice League. I heard they want to make another Superman movie with Henry Cavill. I didn't like man of Steel and would have no interest in seeing that. At least a Batgirl movie would potentially have been interesting. A new character that has not had a film or tv show.


----------



## billd91 (Aug 8, 2022)

Hades#2 said:


> I would rather have seen the Batgirl movie than The Flash. I was unimpressed with the Flash in Justice League. I heard they want to make another Superman movie with Henry Cavill. I didn't like man of Steel and would have no interest in seeing that. At least a Batgirl movie would potentially have been interesting. A new character that has not had a film or tv show.



I would see Henry Cavill as Superman, if it were someone other than Zack Snyder directing it. Some of his movies rise to the level of OK for me, but I haven't really unreservedly liked any of them.


----------



## Hades#2 (Aug 8, 2022)

It could have been just the script that turned me off. It just didn't feel like a Superman movie to me. I remember at the time a lot of friends and coworkers said it was a good action movie but when asked if it was a good Superman movie they responded with 'Does it matter?'. I hope Warner Brothers changes their mind and releases Batgirl on streaming at least.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

Hades#2 said:


> It could have been just the script that turned me off. It just didn't feel like a Superman movie to me. I remember at the time a lot of friends and coworkers said it was a good action movie but when asked if it was a good Superman movie they responded with 'Does it matter?'. I hope Warner Brothers changes their mind and releases Batgirl on streaming at least.




So, the problem is the history. This was _supposed to be a streaming movie_. That's the whole problem. It didn't have the budget of a huge movie release. So the new powers don't want to spend the money to make it a "full release," and they don't want to release movies just to the streaming platform anymore. 

....and if they get the tax write-off, they _can't release it to the streaming platform._


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> And this is how you drive away folks




I'm going to mention that this is why I did my recent power rankings-









						Streaming Services: Discussion and Power Rankings
					

One feature of conversations we often have here about geek media is that they get sidetracked into conversations about the various streaming services that are currently offering the content. So while you want to talk about Captain Pike's amazingly dreamy hair and cooking skills on Strange New...




					www.enworld.org
				




...and why I put HBOMax at #4 (and falling) even though it's my go-to when I want something to watch. Because it's clear that these clowns are running it into the ground.

Harley, Doom Patrol, and Titans are three of the reasons I have HBOMax. They've also cancelled a bunch of great pipeline projects. Not to mention all the budget cutting is eventually going to hit HBO ... I mean, can you imagine these guys greenlighting Station Eleven (one of the great shows I watched in the last year) or even Watchmen?


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Harley, Doom Patrol, and Titans are three of the reasons I have HBOMax. They've also cancelled a bunch of great pipeline projects. Not to mention all the budget cutting is eventually going to hit HBO ... I mean, can you imagine these guys greenlighting Station Eleven (one of the great shows I watched in the last year) or even Watchmen?



And those shows will more than likely be on the chopping block, I just saw an ad for HBOmax with direct, and all i could think was the only show that is safe is the GoT related one, all the others will be question marks until an actual statement is made.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

Hades#2 said:


> I would rather have seen the Batgirl movie than The Flash.



Odds are that we'll get a Flash movie, given the crazy guy in charge's statement about it.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> And those shows will more than likely be on the chopping block, I just saw an ad for HBOmax with direct, and all i could think was the only show that is safe is the GoT related one, all the others will be question marks until an actual statement is made.




Fearless prediction- The GOT show will last only as long as they have strong contractual requirements (maybe even just one year). 

After all, they have a Ninety Day Fiancée universe to expound upon .


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 8, 2022)

I really think that the DCEU really needs to get over its collective self. They aren't rewriting "Othello." They're reinterpreting 4-colour kids books for the screen. When they go dark and gritty, they tend to lose. Have a little fun, like with secondary properties like "The Suicide Squad" (the second, not the first) and "Peacemaker", and they do well. Have some fun. Embrace the ridiculousness. Maybe try making them two-level; aimed mainly at the kids, but with subtext for the parents.


----------



## Deset Gled (Aug 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I really think that the DCEU really needs to get over its collective self. They aren't rewriting "Othello." They're reinterpreting 4-colour kids books for the screen. When they go dark and gritty, they tend to lose. Have a little fun, like with secondary properties like "The Suicide Squad" (the second, not the first) and "Peacemaker", and they do well. Have some fun. Embrace the ridiculousness. Maybe try making them two-level; aimed mainly at the kids, but with subtext for the parents.




More than getting over themselves, I say they need to get over Marvel.  Seems to me they've done nothing but play "follow the leader" for a long time now.  They're stuck in a reaction loop.  It's one of the reasons I'm almost hopeful about cancelling Batgirl; it's the most original thing they've done since the Batman Begins trilogy.


----------



## billd91 (Aug 8, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> More than getting over themselves, I say they need to get over Marvel.  Seems to me they've done nothing but play "follow the leader" for a long time now.  They're stuck in a reaction loop.  It's one of the reasons I'm almost hopeful about cancelling Batgirl; it's the most original thing they've done since the Batman Begins trilogy.



I dunno. I was thinking they hadn't been following Marvel enough - at least not until Shazam came along and they showed they can do something other than the same drama/emotional palette for every movie. One of the MCU's strengths has been a strong central coordinator for leadership and a variety of directors bring lots of different shades of tone, drama, and humor.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> They're reinterpreting 4-colour kids books for the screen.



I get your point, but they haven't been 4-color kids books for years. Nor are they always all-ages anymore. For quite a long time the target audience for comics has been adults. Typically, adults who were fans as kids and never left the hobby, so we have ended up with an aging and shrinking (as people drop out of the hobby) fanbase. Marvel & DC sales numbers have generally been shrinking for years because of this business model.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 8, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I get your point, but they haven't been 4-color kids books for years. Nor are they always all-ages anymore. For quite a long time the target audience for comics has been adults. Typically, adults who were fans as kids and never left the hobby, so we have ended up with an aging and shrinking (as people drop out of the hobby) fanbase. Marvel & DC sales numbers have generally been shrinking for years because of this business model.



Well then maybe they need to get back to their roots, no? That pretty much comes down to the same thing.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 8, 2022)

billd91 said:


> I dunno. I was thinking they hadn't been following Marvel enough - at least not until Shazam came along and they showed they can do something other than the same drama/emotional palette for every movie. One of the MCU's strengths has been a strong central coordinator for leadership and a variety of directors bring lots of different shades of tone, drama, and humor.



Thanks for that. I had meant to also reference "Shazam", but missed doing so. Another movie where fun wasn't lost in the equation. I've mentioned this before. One of my film buff fans likes to refer to Batman as a Night God and Superman as a Sun God, in mythological terms. How the DCEU could make a Sun God character dark and gritty is beyond me. Wrong director, wrong tone. "On my world it means hope" in a florescently lit, desaturated world.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> More than getting over themselves, I say they need to get over Marvel.  Seems to me they've done nothing but play "follow the leader" for a long time now.  They're stuck in a reaction loop.  It's one of the reasons I'm almost hopeful about cancelling Batgirl; it's the most original thing they've done since the Batman Begins trilogy.




No. That's so far from the truth - IMO.

Look- I'm not a huge fan of their movie strategy; but it was _different. _There was the Snyder "doom and gloom-a-verse." Which has since morphed into, post Justice League flop, into something much more interesting - 
Joker might have been derivative of Scorsese, but it wasn't Marvel. 
Suicide Quad (Gunn) might have been reminiscent of Guardians, but it was certainly not Marvel.
The Batman was many things - but not Marvel. And so on.

More importantly, this overlooks the DC animated universe, which has been amazing- the constant stream of movies as well as the series (from Harley to Young Justice). And then there are the TV series- sure, maybe they haven't gotten the Disney+ love, but Doom Patrol, Watchmen, Tians, Pennyworth, Peacemaker ... they were good.

Cancelling Batgirl (and the other shows) is just more damage, because we know why they are doing it. They aren't pursuing a "Marvel strategy." This is about cutting costs, period. We will see DC heroes only in the big budget films ... but given the track record so far, I am not hopeful. 

This isn't building; this is cannibalism of a brand.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well then maybe they need to get back to their roots, no? That pretty much comes down to the same thing.



The problem is, in part, comics just don't appeal to kids anymore. At least traditional comics, web comics do ok with the younger generation. I started reading them as a kid because they were easily accessible at grocery stores, drug stores and newsstands. I haven't seen a comic in either grocery or drug stores in a decade or more because they don't sell well there and newsstands don't really exist anymore, at least in the US. Video games, smart phones and tablets now are the draw. I know tons of kids who love superheroes but it's from games, TV and movies, most have never read a comic.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 8, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> The problem is, in part, comics just don't appeal to kids anymore. At least traditional comics, web comics do ok with the younger generation. I started reading them as a kid because they were easily accessible at grocery stores, drug stores and newsstands. I haven't seen a comic in either grocery or drug stores in a decade or more because they don't sell well there and newsstands don't really exist anymore, at least in the US. Video games, smart phones and tablets now are the draw. I know tons of kids who love superheroes but it's from games, TV and movies, most have never read a comic.



And yet pursuing a literally dying client base is doomed to failure. That's why I mentioned the two-tiered dialogue approach. Hell, it worked for "The Flintstones" back in the '60s.


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 8, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> The problem is, in part, comics just don't appeal to kids anymore. At least traditional comics, web comics do ok with the younger generation. I started reading them as a kid because they were easily accessible at grocery stores, drug stores and newsstands. I haven't seen a comic in either grocery or drug stores in a decade or more because they don't sell well there and newsstands don't really exist anymore, at least in the US. Video games, smart phones and tablets now are the draw. I know tons of kids who love superheroes but it's from games, TV and movies, most have never read a comic.



This does not jive with my experience with children.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 8, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> This does not jive with my experience with children.



You know kids who read comics? If so, I don't doubt you but that's no longer the industry standard, assuming we are talking about traditional American monthly superhero comics like Marvel & DC. Webcomics, manga and YA stuff has a strong younger audience. If wasn't very clear about the distinction, my bad. I figured since we were talking about DC movies I didn't need to clarify.









						Surprising New Data Shows Comic Readers Are Leaving Superheroes Behind
					

As more comics and graphic novels are sold in bookstores, new genres are overtaking costumed crusaders with the rising generation of fans.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 8, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> You know kids who read comics? If so, I don't doubt you but that's no longer the industry standard, assuming we are talking about traditional American monthly superhero comics like Marvel & DC. Webcomics, manga and YA stuff has a strong younger audience. If wasn't very clear about the distinction, my bad. I figured since we were talking about DC movies I didn't need to clarify.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My own kids, yes. Not monthly, no, but trades and graphic novels aimed at kids.


----------



## Deset Gled (Aug 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> No. That's so far from the truth - IMO.
> 
> Look- I'm not a huge fan of their movie strategy; but it was _different. _There was the Snyder "doom and gloom-a-verse." Which has since morphed into, post Justice League flop, into something much more interesting -
> Joker might have been derivative of Scorsese, but it wasn't Marvel.
> ...




Kevin Tsujihara basically admitted in 2019 that they had been trying to copy Marvel and failed at it.  Here's a couple quick news articles on it from Google:









						The key to the DC universe's success was giving up on copying Marvel
					

When DC decided to follow Marvel with an interconnected cinematic universe of its own, there seemed to be equal parts trepidation and anticipation from movie …




					bgr.com
				












						DC Films Finally Admits Marvel Studios Was Right All Along
					

If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.




					www.vanityfair.com
				












						Warner Bros’ Kevin Tsujihara On The DCEU: Less Interconnectivity “The Right Strategy For Us Right Now”
					

Warner Bros. chief and CEO Kevin Tsujihara recently engaged in a wide-ranging interview with the Los Angeles Times concerning the future of the storied film studio, and the tumultuous (if ultimately successful) year just past. Of note to film fans, too, was how he spoke of the company’s...




					moviemarker.co.uk
				




So, yeah, they modeled the DCEU after the MCU and it didn't work.  And after 2019, what do they have to show for their attempt at change?  I'll give you the standalone The Joker and The Batman.  But that's basically it.  Both the new Suicide Squad and Birds of Prey were falling back their old ways; I don't think they worked any better the second time around.  And, unfortunately, a lot of movie activity stopped in 2020 and is just starting to get back on track, so that's basically all they had.

Which leads us to the current DC crisis, which has multiple sources reporting that DC is attempting to copy Marvel again:









						Mom, DC is Copying Marvel Again!
					

Warner Bros. announced a 10-year plan for DC that's "very similar" to what Disney has done with the MCU. We don't think this will turn out well.




					news.yahoo.com
				












						DC Reportedly Plans Major Changes to Be More Like Marvel Studios
					

In a new move, Warner Bros. will look to mimic Marvel Studios for future DC movie and TV success.




					thedirect.com
				












						DC Finally Admits Its Plan to Copy the Marvel Cinematic Universe
					

DC's new boss wants to emulate Marvel's movie success. But can the company recover from years of missteps?




					www.denofgeek.com
				




So, that's about a three year stretch where DC tried to stop copying Marvel, during the pandemic, with little to show for their efforts.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> Kevin Tsujihara basically admitted ....
> 
> So, that's about a three year stretch where DC tried to stop copying Marvel, during the pandemic, with little to show for their efforts.




Yes, I don't think you need any admissions to know that the Justice League / Snyder debacle was an attempt to copy Marvel for an interconnected universe. But the trouble was not that it was a copy- it was the Snyder approach that copied them badly.

And since they moved away from the Snyder approach, the actual movies have been .... good. Certainly the overall ROIs have been much better. I think it's difficult to downgrade, inter alia, the new Suicide Squad when it was released _during the pandemic and was simultaneously released on streaming_, and still made decent money.

And this put aside massive success like The Joker and The Batman.

And this doesn't include the Animated material, or the TV material.

In other words, they are cutting everything that works (animated, TV). And they are redoing the movies, again, despite the movies finally getting traction.

Other than that, how was the play Mrs. Lincoln? I can't imagine a single person looking at this who is a fan of DC and being happy.

"Hey, let's cut all the good stuff, the stuff the fans like ... with no real strategy after we put it all underneath a guy with no movie experience. Sound good? OKAY THEN!"


ETA- and one more time ... they are getting rid of Batgirl for a tax break, because they are saddled with debt. This isn't a grand awesome strategy. Purely a money play because this company has so little room to maneuver, and one which has angered a lot of the creatives they have to work with in the future (which will drive up their price). Not great, Bob!


----------



## Monero (Aug 8, 2022)

Good.  Wouldve been dogshit  anyways given how low quality the Tv show was.

 Nothing of value was lost.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

Monero said:


> Good.  Wouldve been dog****  anyways given how low quality the Tv show was.




1. Please try and avoid cursing. Thanks!

2. The TV show is, assumedly, Batwoman. This is Batgirl. Different characters. Most DC fans know the difference between Barbara Gordon and Kate Kane. 

3. Also, the TV show is part of the "Berlanti-verse" (the Arrowverse) - which is decidedly different than this movie. The movie had, for example, J. K. Simmons as Lt. Gordon and Michael Keaton as Batman- you might have heard of him? Which put the movie in the post-Flash DC universe. 

4. I'm guessing I know why you have this opinion .... but maybe you'll surprise me!


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> 1. Please try and avoid cursing. Thanks!
> 
> 2. The TV show is, assumedly, Batwoman. This is Batgirl. Different characters. Most DC fans know the difference between Barbara Gordon and Kate Kane.
> 
> 3. Also, the TV show is part of the "Berlanti-verse" (the Arrowverse) - which is decidedly different than this movie. The movie had, for example, J. K. Simmons as Lt. Gordon and Michael Keaton as Batman- you might have heard of him? Which put the movie in the post-Flash DC universe.



And the Arrowverse is going bye-bye as well


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> And the Arrowverse is going bye-bye as well



Dangnabbit, that was actually decent.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> And the Arrowverse is going bye-bye as well




Well .... I have mixed feelings about that.

Despite not agreeing with the above poster, the Batwoman TV series was ... not great.
And Flash is really tired. Letting it have an extra half season is almost a mercy killing.
The biggest loss is Legends of Tomorrow, which somehow (despite cast changes) is always fun.

Arrow, Supergirl, and Black Lightning were all already gone.

That just leaves Superman & Lois and Stargirl, right? Are they officially gone?'

ETA- Most importantly, what about the Babylon5 reboot on the CW? Gone too?


ETA2- I read the article by @trappedslider ... totally forgot about Naomi!


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Dangnabbit, that was actually decent.



That's why it's going 









						Stephen Amell & Arrowverse Stars Celebrate The Flash’s 9-Year Arc
					

The Arrowverse honors The Flash's 9-year run!




					screenrant.com


----------



## Parmandur (Aug 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Well .... I have mixed feelings about that.
> 
> Despite not agreeing with the above poster, the Batwoman TV series was ... not great.
> And Flash is really tired. Letting it have an extra half season is almost a mercy killing.
> ...



Sure, it could be uneven, but for my $0.02 the CW DC material was probably the closest anyone in Hollywood has come to actually following the MCU in any creatively viable fashion.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Well .... I have mixed feelings about that.
> 
> Despite not agreeing with the above poster, the Batwoman TV series was ... not great.
> And Flash is really tired. Letting it have an extra half season is almost a mercy killing.
> ...



[/QUOTE]
No,they aren't gone but won't be back till 2023 with Gotham Knights


Snarf Zagyg said:


> ETA- Most importantly, what about the Babylon5 reboot on the CW? Gone too?



Was it green lite by the previous guy in charge? If so, then yes lol. I honestly have no idea.

EDIT: It looks like it's still in active development ‘Babylon 5’ Reboot Still “Very Much In Active Development”, The CW CEO Confirms


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 8, 2022)

Parmandur said:


> Sure, it could be uneven, but for my $0.02 the CW DC material was probably the closest anyone in Hollywood has come to actually following the MCU in any creatively viable fashion.




Don't get me wrong ... I loved the Arrowverse. Heck, _I've watched every single episode of every show_. Even the ones I regret later. 

But I think they stretched the talent and plots too thin. These are network series, so each season was 20-23 episodes, and at one point ...

In 2018, you had ...

Arrow (22 episodes)
Flash (22 episodes)
Supergirl (22 episodes)
LoT (22 episodes)
Black Lightning (16 episodes)

*104 episodes.*

...and they were preparing and getting ready for the launch of Batwoman the next year! I think that they were done in by too much of a good thing.

(I still think that the first few seasons of the Arrow and the Flash, most of the Supergirl run, all of LoT, all of Black Lightning, and ... uh ... pretty much none of Batwoman are really really good TV).


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Well .... I have mixed feelings about that.
> 
> Despite not agreeing with the above poster, the Batwoman TV series was ... not great.
> And Flash is really tired. Letting it have an extra half season is almost a mercy killing.
> ...



From what I have read the B5 reboot was still in development as of a few months ago, but who knows. Superman & Lois and Stargirl aren't Arrowverse, which is odd for Superman and Lois since they are the same actors. From everything I have read both are still not cancelled but with the likely sale of the CW everything is probably up in the air.

I loved the Arrowverse but it has been dying a slow death for years, it was almost a relief to finally see it go. I probably stopped watching any of the shows four-ish years ago


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 8, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Don't get me wrong ... I loved the Arrowverse. Heck, _I've watched every single episode of every show_. Even the ones I regret later.
> 
> But I think they stretched the talent and plots too thin. These are network series, so each season was 20-23 episodes, and at one point ...
> 
> ...



Great in the beginning but, to me at least, they started to suffer fairly quickly from Supernatural Syndrome (lather, rinse, repeat) and too much... for lack of a better term, CW. The crossover episodes also lost me because missing episodes of shows that I didn't want to watch, meant missing out on parts of the story. Pity, because I was really enjoying Arrow and Flash in the beginning. Supergirl not as much, but it had its moments.

It would be nice if the DCEU animated series folks could take the wheel on the live action movies for a while, I think.


----------



## Eltab (Aug 8, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> CNN stuff? American news isn't great but CNN seems fairly bad.



My opinion of CNN _would_ derail the thread.

Everything Warner is being subjected to critical review by Discovery management.  The people who were happy and/or comfy with "the way we do things" of course will not react well when the boat is rocked.


----------



## Marc Radle (Aug 9, 2022)

Eltab said:


> My opinion of CNN _would_ derail the thread.
> 
> Everything Warner is being subjected to critical review by Discovery management.  The people who were happy and/or comfy with "the way we do things" of course will not react well when the boat is rocked.



I have no problems with CNN


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 9, 2022)

It's not CNN in particular more American news in general there's worse. ABC is about the best. 

 They make my teeth itch.


----------



## wicked cool (Aug 9, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Don't get me wrong ... I loved the Arrowverse. Heck, _I've watched every single episode of every show_. Even the ones I regret later.
> 
> But I think they stretched the talent and plots too thin. These are network series, so each season was 20-23 episodes, and at one point ...
> 
> ...



as a casual fan of dc i didnt realize there was a separate universe. i knew the actors were different but no idea they were different . Theres so many batmans i just figured they were just different directors with new actors. Same went with spiderman (until the last movie i thought it was just reboots)

for me in america i see comics mainly in comic stores . Graphic novels can be seen in book stores/online stuff. 

My local comicbook chain (3 stores i think) reminds me of the simpsons comicbook store and there is stuff on the shelves over 10 years old (heroclix stuff thats not legal in current games etc)  while the big chain store sells music/comics tshirts/some D&D stuff etc. The cvs/walgreens which replaced most mom/pop drug stores havent sold comics in a long long time

off topic but i thought was cool. Listening to this radio dj the other day and he was talking about icecream trucks when he was a kid (probably within last 15 years) and his icecream truck guy sold comics plus pizza. Never saw that but as a kid would have loved that


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 9, 2022)

wicked cool said:


> as a casual fan of dc i didnt realize there was a separate universe. i knew the actors were different but no idea they were different . Theres so many batmans i just figured they were just different directors with new actors. Same went with spiderman (until the last movie i thought it was just reboots)
> 
> for me in america i see comics mainly in comic stores . Graphic novels can be seen in book stores/online stuff.
> 
> ...



As far as the Spider-Man movies go, they were reboots if the actor changed. Marvel just retrofitted Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield into the MCU. The same mostly holds true for Batman as well although I think Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer and George Clooney maybe were all supposed to be the same guy. The Nolan/Bale Batman was its own self-contained story, the Snyder/Afleck version was also new and part of the DCEU and the recent Reeves/Pattinson The Batman is a whole new thing and not part of the DCEU. If you're not an uber-fan and don't keep up on this stuff I think it's totally reasonable that you looked at it the way you did. I also think that Marvel's over-reliance on in-universe continuity and overarching stories will serve to just eventually confuse the average viewer. That's why I liked the DC approach post-Snyder where each movie was self-contained but loosely connected (with some exceptions like The Batman and Joker being totally removed) but who knows what will happen now with Warner Discovery's 10-year plan.

I'm an old fart and never had an ice-cream truck sell comics, I'm kind of jealous of that.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 9, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> As far as the Spider-Man movies go, they were reboots if the actor changed. Marvel just retrofitted Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield into the MCU. The same mostly holds true for Batman as well although I think Michael Keaton, Val Kilmer and George Clooney maybe were all supposed to be the same guy. The Nolan/Bale Batman was its own self-contained story, the Snyder/Afleck version was also new and part of the DCEU and the recent Reeves/Pattinson The Batman is a whole new thing and not part of the DCEU. If you're not an uber-fan and don't keep up on this stuff I think it's totally reasonable that you looked at it the way you did. I also think that Marvel's over-reliance on in-universe continuity and overarching stories will serve to just eventually confuse the average viewer. That's why I liked the DC approach post-Snyder where each movie was self-contained but loosely connected (with some exceptions like The Batman and Joker being totally removed) but who knows what will happen now with Warner Discovery's 10-year plan.
> 
> I'm an old fart and never had an ice-cream truck sell comics, I'm kind of jealous of that.



I'd really like to see them work Pattinson's Batman into a movie with Phoenix's Joker. Maybe two more Batman movies in that vein with Pattinson's character becoming the more polished and experienced version over the arc.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 10, 2022)

so...yeah what the hell? We don't get a full batigrl movie with Keaton but we get this spin-off?









						Black Canary Standalone Movie Still in Development at HBO Max
					

Birds of Prey’s bat-swinging girl is still planning to step up to the plate for HBO Max.




					tvline.com


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 10, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> so...yeah what the hell? We don't get a full batigrl movie with Keaton but we get this spin-off?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what's going on with Discovery/HBO Max. I thought they were exiting scripted programming, but this article shows some new and continuing shows are still moving forward. Granted, I have no idea how reliable a source this is.









						Green Lantern Series 'Very Much Alive' at HBO Max — Plus, a Status Report on the Streamer's Other DC Heroes
					

Batgirl may have been told to suddenly hang up her cowl, but HBO Max’s live-action Green Lantern series is still on track to fly high.




					tvline.com


----------



## Snarf Zagyg (Aug 10, 2022)

DC Films “Reset” Adds More Confusion for Warner Bros.’ Slate
					

After David Zaslav shelved 'Batgirl' and declared a new ten-year plan is in the works, the future of the comic book power house is less clear than it has been in years.




					www.hollywoodreporter.com
				




This reporting seems to indicate that the whole "reset" and "10 year" thing was .... nonsense.

Basically, they are rooting around, cancelled stuff that they could get tax breaks on (like Batgirl), angered a bunch of people, and are moving around like untethered ships in a marina during a hurricane.


----------



## billd91 (Aug 10, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I'm not sure what's going on with Discovery/HBO Max. I thought they were exiting scripted programming, but this article shows some new and continuing shows are still moving forward. Granted, I have no idea how reliable a source this is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's like they're bring run like any other streaming service, but 75% more deranged chimpy.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 10, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Basically, they are rooting around, cancelled stuff that they could get tax breaks on (like Batgirl), angered a bunch of people, and are moving around like untethered ships in a marina during a hurricane.



Let's throw what the fans want out the window, but  in the mean time let's spin this wheel of content and see what happens


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 10, 2022)

It really seems like very few companies know how to handle superhero properties as movies. We've had Marvel/Disney being successful with the MCU and that's it. While The DCEU movies were better post-Snyder they were infrequent and AT&T/Warner really didn't seem to have a cohesive plan with Warner/Discovery being seemingly worse. Sony has the rights to the Spider-Man characters and have put out three movies in their extended universe of varying quality, focusing completely on villains while ignoring heroes like Spider-Woman (at least we got Into the Spider-verse). Then we have Sony also trying to start a universe based on the Valiant properties, which it seems Bloodshot killed.

Honestly, the best superhero stuff being done currently is on streaming services with shows like The Boys, The Umbrella Academy and Invincible.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 12, 2022)




----------



## trappedslider (Aug 13, 2022)

Rumor is that The Batman 2 is on shakey ground and could be canceled,as well asThe Flash


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 13, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Rumor is that The Batman 2 is on shakey ground and could be canceled,as well asThe Flash



Well "The Flash" has a lot more problems than the studio not having confidence that it's right for the venue.


----------



## Henadic Theologian (Aug 13, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Rumor is that The Batman 2 is on shakey ground and could be canceled,as well asThe Flash




 I've heard suggests that the reason The Flash hasn't been and won't be canceled, because as a child actor Ezra Miller has some more horrifying stuff on powerful Hollywood people, so as long as he has that on them, he's protected. Plus I've heard it's really good movie.


----------



## billd91 (Aug 13, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> I've heard suggests that the reason The Flash hasn't been and won't be canceled, because as a child actor Ezra Miller has some more horrifying stuff on powerful Hollywood people, so as long as he has that on them, he's protected.



That seems extremely unlikely.


----------



## Yora (Aug 13, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> It really seems like very few companies know how to handle superhero properties as movies. We've had Marvel/Disney being successful with the MCU and that's it. While The DCEU movies were better post-Snyder they were infrequent and AT&T/Warner really didn't seem to have a cohesive plan with Warner/Discovery being seemingly worse. Sony has the rights to the Spider-Man characters and have put out three movies in their extended universe of varying quality, focusing completely on villains while ignoring heroes like Spider-Woman (at least we got Into the Spider-verse). Then we have Sony also trying to start a universe based on the Valiant properties, which it seems Bloodshot killed.
> 
> Honestly, the best superhero stuff being done currently is on streaming services with shows like The Boys, The Umbrella Academy and Invincible.



Aren't those three all original new characters instead of dragging 80 year old icons around the block for the 17th time for nostalgic fan service?


----------



## Mirtek (Aug 13, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> I've heard suggests that the reason The Flash hasn't been and won't be canceled, because as a child actor Ezra Miller has some more horrifying stuff on powerful Hollywood people, so as long as he has that on them, he's protected. Plus I've heard it's really good movie.



Didn't know much about Ezra, but now knowing he's an ex child actor that puts his escapades into a new light for me.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 13, 2022)

Yora said:


> Aren't those three all original new characters instead of dragging 80 year old icons around the block for the 17th time for nostalgic fan service?



2007, 2007, and 2003, respectively.


----------



## Yora (Aug 13, 2022)

Much older than I thought, but at least they are not trying to find ways to make Superman appear cool.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 14, 2022)

Yora said:


> Aren't those three all original new characters instead of dragging 80 year old icons around the block for the 17th time for nostalgic fan service?



All three are comic adaptations. The Boys started out at Windstorm/DC and moved to Dynamite, The Umbrella Acadamy is a Dark Horse comic and Invincible is from Image (written by the same guy who wrote The Walking Dead). Granted, none are nearly as old as any Marvel or DC stuff, all are less than 20 years old. Also, the comics were all written by the same people, their original creators. The Boys has certainly surpassed the source material in quality.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 14, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well "The Flash" has a lot more problems than the studio not having confidence that it's right for the venue.


----------



## aco175 (Aug 14, 2022)

I did not even know they were coming out with a Batgirl until I saw it was cancelled.  Then I saw it was cancelled for a tax break which make me think that DC does not care about the fans.  Kind of like in two years from now Hasbro spends money getting a new D&D2024 5.5e and then stops to only come out with a new Return to the Keep of Elemental Evil.  Meh.


----------



## Yora (Aug 14, 2022)

aco175 said:


> I did not even know they were coming out with a Batgirl until I saw it was cancelled.  Then I saw it was cancelled for a tax break which make me think that DC does not care about the fans.



Allegedly. And that choice wasn't DCs to make, but came from higher up.


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 15, 2022)




----------



## trappedslider (Aug 17, 2022)

So, here's what's still going on Warner Bros. Discovery Confirms Which Three DC Projects Are Moving Forward at HBO Max


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 17, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> So, here's what's still going on Warner Bros. Discovery Confirms Which Three DC Projects Are Moving Forward at HBO Max



Peacemaker was awesome so more of it is more awesome. I couldn't care less about Penguin. I hope the Green Lantern Corps is good, but I am baffled why GL isn't getting a movie.


----------



## billd91 (Aug 17, 2022)

Hex08 said:


> I hope the Green Lantern Corps is good, but I am baffled why GL isn't getting a movie.



Because Deadpool is on the job!


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 19, 2022)

Apparently 36 shows are on the HBO Max chopping block. Unfortunately, I read another article that Young Justice is done too.









						HBO Max is removing 36 shows ahead of Discovery+ merger | Engadget
					

HBO Max is pulling 36 shows ahead of its union with Discovery+, and creators aren't pleased..




					www.engadget.com
				












						Another Loss for the DC Universe: Young Justice Is No More
					

A new report says the animated HBO Max series will not be returning for season 5.




					gizmodo.com


----------



## trappedslider (Aug 19, 2022)

I have to wonder if his plan is to pull a Failure Gambit, make the streamer so worthless they have no choice but to give up on it, and recoup the savings...


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 19, 2022)

It's almost starting to feel like a "we want the tech but not the content" sort of merger.


----------



## Eltab (Aug 20, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> I have to wonder if his plan is to pull a Failure Gambit, make the streamer so worthless they have no choice but to give up on it, and recoup the savings...



I think somebody at Discovery looked at the total Warner package they bought, realized "Have you ever been so far in debt in your life?!?" , and are trying to shut off every possible dribble of money going out.  
Among other things, WBD cancelled their agreement to show new _Sesame Street_ episodes - because they have to pay Childrens Television Workshop (or whoever holds the rights / trademarks) for it.


----------



## Hex08 (Aug 20, 2022)

They are even removing old episodes of Sesame Street








						HBO Max Removes About 200 ‘Sesame Street’ Episodes
					

Brought to you by the letters G-O-N-E: The content purge at HBO Max continues as the streaming platform has pulled about 200 older episodes of classic kids’ show “Sesame Street.” …




					variety.com


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## trappedslider (Aug 24, 2022)

El Arbi and Fallah — whose other directing credits include _Bad Boys for Life _and multiple episodes of Disney+'s _Ms. Marvel _TV series — confirm that their film was the victim of shifting priorities. "The guys from Warners told us it was not a talent problem from our part or the actress, or even the quality of the movie," El Arbi told SKRIPT. "They told us it was a strategic change. There was new management, and they wanted to save some money."









						'Batgirl' directors can no longer access footage from the shelved superhero movie: 'We have nothing'
					

Adil El Arbi and Bilall Fallah reveal they tried to film footage from the movie on their cellphones.




					www.yahoo.com
				




who wants to break into a studio and steal some footage?


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## Eltab (Aug 24, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> who wants to break into a studio and steal some footage?



_Oceans_ ... 15 ?


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## trappedslider (Aug 24, 2022)

Eltab said:


> _Oceans_ ... 15 ?



We'll need a grease man


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2022)

‘Batgirl’ Directors Tried to Pirate Movie Before HBO Max Locked Them Out of Servers
					

Stephane Cardinale/GettyThe creators behind HBO Max’s Batgirl say they were so stunned by the streamer’s decision to scrap the movie that they tried to log onto the server and record their work on a cellphone before their access was quickly revoked.Directing duo Adil El Arbi and Bilall Fallah...




					www.yahoo.com


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## Blue Orange (Aug 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> ‘Batgirl’ Directors Tried to Pirate Movie Before HBO Max Locked Them Out of Servers
> 
> 
> Stephane Cardinale/GettyThe creators behind HBO Max’s Batgirl say they were so stunned by the streamer’s decision to scrap the movie that they tried to log onto the server and record their work on a cellphone before their access was quickly revoked.Directing duo Adil El Arbi and Bilall Fallah...
> ...




LOL. Well, I admire their dedication to their craft and fans! Sorry it didn't work!


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2022)

If this is still the guard, we can get in easily


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## Henadic Theologian (Aug 26, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Because Deadpool is on the job!
> View attachment 258101




 I loved the Green Lantern movie was disappointed we never got a Star Sapphire with Blake Lively movie.


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## Henadic Theologian (Aug 26, 2022)

Blue Orange said:


> LOL. Well, I admire their dedication to their craft and fans! Sorry it didn't work!




 I can't blame them, word from Kamran Pasha is that without the protection Will Smith who lost most of hs clout, they've been black balled in Hollywood for being deeply religious Mulsims . I still remain hopeful that at least have a friend in Kevin Feige, but who knows how many years he has left at the Helm of the MCU. He's no spring chicken.


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## trappedslider (Aug 26, 2022)

Ezra Miller Meets With Warners Leadership in a ‘The Flash’ Course Correct (Exclusive)
					

The meeting on the Burbank lot between the actor, their agent and Warners' Michael De Luca and Pamela Abdy sought to quell concerns over the star's arrests and controversies.




					www.hollywoodreporter.com
				




well, we're still getting The Flash movie, so we'll see Keaton as Batman at least once.


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## Henadic Theologian (Aug 27, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> Ezra Miller Meets With Warners Leadership in a ‘The Flash’ Course Correct (Exclusive)
> 
> 
> The meeting on the Burbank lot between the actor, their agent and Warners' Michael De Luca and Pamela Abdy sought to quell concerns over the star's arrests and controversies.
> ...




 I really hope rehab did the trick and Ezra can have a Robert Downey Jr. Moment.


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## trappedslider (Aug 29, 2022)

HBO Max and Warner Bros. Discovery seem to be on fire, and that’s on purpose
					

The plan is to make a lot of money as cheaply as possible.




					www.theverge.com


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## trappedslider (Sep 26, 2022)

Going back to Batgirl









						Leslie Grace shares behind-the-scenes footage from her scrapped film, 'Batgirl': 'I couldn’t resist'
					

The actress was cast as Batgirl, a.k.a. Barbara Gordon, in the film that Warner Bros. no longer plans to release.




					www.yahoo.com


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## trappedslider (Oct 25, 2022)

And now we know the full scale Warner Bros. Discovery to Take up to $4.3 Billion in Post-Merger Restructuring Charges, Including up to $2.5 Billion in Content Write-Offs


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## Mirtek (Oct 25, 2022)

Canning a movie as a write-off only makes sense if the company sincerely believes it's returns will be less than the the total write off multiplied by the companies tax-rate. The money saved by the write off is always only a mere fraction of the value that is being written off.

WB's tax rate in the last two years was  on average 21.2%, so canning a $100 million movie saves them $21.2 million in taxes, that's still -$78.8 million.

Now the $100 million are already spend and gone and the $21.2 million tax saving is a future gain, but that will still only save them money if they fully expect that releasing the movie will earn them less than $25.7 million profit (minus taxes that'd be the break even vs. the write off)


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## Deset Gled (Oct 25, 2022)

Mirtek said:


> Canning a movie as a write-off only makes sense if the company sincerely believes it's returns will be less than the the total write off multiplied by the companies tax-rate. The money saved by the write off is always only a mere fraction of the value that is being written off.
> 
> WB's tax rate in the last two years was  on average 21.2%, so canning a $100 million movie saves them $21.2 million in taxes, that's still -$78.8 million.
> 
> Now the $100 million are already spend and gone and the $21.2 million tax saving is a future gain, but that will still only save them money if they fully expect that releasing the movie will earn them less than $25.7 million profit (minus taxes that'd be the break even vs. the write off)




Great summary of what the "write off" really means.

I'll throw one other piece into the mix.  They're also considering brand value and future movies in the projections.  I think there's fear that if they release a stinker now, the next time they want to release a big budget movie (Batman, Batgirl, Justice League, whatever) it will earn less money.  How much less?  I dunno.  But I'm sure it plays into their brand management plans.


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## Ryujin (Oct 25, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> Great summary of what the "write off" really means.
> 
> I'll throw one other piece into the mix.  They're also considering brand value and future movies in the projections.  I think there's fear that if they release a stinker now, the next time they want to release a big budget movie (Batman, Batgirl, Justice League, whatever) it will earn less money.  How much less?  I dunno.  But I'm sure it plays into their brand management plans.



Hasn't stopped them up until this point, so why worry now?


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## billd91 (Oct 25, 2022)

Mirtek said:


> Canning a movie as a write-off only makes sense if the company sincerely believes it's returns will be less than the the total write off multiplied by the companies tax-rate. The money saved by the write off is always only a mere fraction of the value that is being written off.
> 
> WB's tax rate in the last two years was  on average 21.2%, so canning a $100 million movie saves them $21.2 million in taxes, that's still -$78.8 million.
> 
> Now the $100 million are already spend and gone and the $21.2 million tax saving is a future gain, but that will still only save them money if they fully expect that releasing the movie will earn them less than $25.7 million profit (minus taxes that'd be the break even vs. the write off)



Wouldn't we have to also figure in the marketing budget had they gone ahead with the release? Wouldn't their calculus be based on the expected returns being less than the (total write off x tax rate) + marketing?


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## Mirtek (Oct 25, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Wouldn't we have to also figure in the marketing budget had they gone ahead with the release? Wouldn't their calculus be based on the expected returns being less than the (total write off x tax rate) + marketing?



Absolutely. Strictly speaking about this movie they must figure that after any required future spendings and incomes are counted, the net result after taxes must be less than 21 million dollars to be worth it.

If we're looking at the broader picture than Ryujin makes an excellent point about potential damage to the brand as a whole. Even if enough people were to fall for Batgirl so that a release may earn them 30 million at the end, the resulting badwill toward future DCU movies could cost them more.

The $100 million are already spend anyway and not coming back either way. The only question is whether a release would result in

WB share of revenue from release
./. additional marketing expenses
./. taxes
./. badwill on future releases (very hard to quantify)


> $21 million or < $21 million


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## trappedslider (Oct 26, 2022)

DC Shocker: James Gunn, Peter Safran to Lead Film, TV and Animation Division (Exclusive)
					

The duo will report to David Zaslav and assume the title of co-chairs and co-CEOs of DC Studios.




					www.hollywoodreporter.com


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## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> DC Shocker: James Gunn, Peter Safran to Lead Film, TV and Animation Division (Exclusive)
> 
> 
> The duo will report to David Zaslav and assume the title of co-chairs and co-CEOs of DC Studios.
> ...




On the one hand- this is great news for DC.

On the second hand- this is probably the only move they could have made. While I am sure that there are some grimdark Snyder fanboys still out there, sad that we will not get to see Superman put all the other heroes in their place with extreme prejudice (and in extreme slow motion), Gunn and Snyder have credibility with both the fans and (more importantly) with Hollywood creatives. 

On the third hand (don't ask)- I predict the following headline in 15 months:

_*James Gunn Era Ends at Warner Bros. Discovery With Acrimonious Departure; What Went Wrong?*_


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## Ryujin (Oct 26, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> On the one hand- this is great news for DC.
> 
> On the second hand- this is probably the only move they could have made. While I am sure that there are some grimdark Snyder fanboys still out there, sad that we will not get to see Superman put all the other heroes in their place with extreme prejudice (and in extreme slow motion), Gunn and Snyder have credibility with both the fans and (more importantly) with Hollywood creatives.
> 
> ...



At least Gunn understands that they're telling stories that were, nominally, originally written for kids. It's not like they're making films of Dark Horse Presents, or some of the heavy graphic novel content. If you haven't seen "The Specials", which he wrote back in 2000, it's well worth the watch.

Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me.


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## trappedslider (Oct 26, 2022)

While I'm sad that we won't get to see Synder's full vision (I loved his cut of Justice League) I'm also hopeful because I also like Gunn's style as well.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 26, 2022)

trappedslider said:


> While I'm sad that we won't get to see Synder's full vision (I loved his cut of Justice League) I'm also hopeful because I also like Gunn's style as well.




I always feel that this is necessary to point out.

The Snyder version of the Justice League was fine. I enjoyed watching it. It was better, overall, that what had been released.

_However, _it was also *four hours long*_. _It wasn't a movie. The "Snyder cut" that you saw could never have been released in theaters. I am sure that there are innumerable movies that directors could improve if you gave them _four hours_ to really tell the story. 

Not to mention that an additional $100+* million was spent ... above the $300 million (production only- not including marketing) that was already plowed into the movie. 

Finally, the enjoyment I felt watching it was tempered by the recent revelations about the extreme harassment that caused its release. 

*Originally it was said to be between $20-30 million. Then it was acknowledged to be $70 million. The most recent WB report has it at "more than" $100 million. Again- this wasn't for a theatrical release. This wasn't a new movie. And this wasn't including any marketing.


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## trappedslider (Oct 26, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> I always feel that this is necessary to point out.
> 
> The Snyder version of the Justice League was fine. I enjoyed watching it. It was better, overall, that what had been released.
> 
> _However, _it was also *four hours long*_. _It wasn't a movie. The "Snyder cut" that you saw could never have been released in theaters. I am sure that there are innumerable movies that directors could improve if you gave them _four hours_ to really tell the story.



Well, it was originally planned to be two parts and you can see that. Yeah the recent revelation does tend to temper my enthusiasm


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## Mirtek (Oct 26, 2022)

Maybe I gave up too early on the Snyder cut, but I don't think I even made it to a full third. I left it behind with the thought that I now fully understand why so much of that stuff was cut out for the first release.


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## Ryujin (Oct 26, 2022)

If you want to make something like the Snyder cut then you release it on a streaming service as 10, half-hour episodes of a limited series.


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## Deset Gled (Oct 26, 2022)

As a fan of cinema as art, I want to argue that 4 hour movies should exist.  There are a number of classics that wouldn't be the same without their extended run times.  Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Cleopatra, etc, are all very long and deserve the extra length.  And I don't think turning things into a series is always an alternative; that imposes it's own form upon the story that simple doesn't work all the time.  I say we should bring back long movies with an intermission.

OTOH, the Snyder cut doesn't exactly feel like the best champion for this cause.  And I haven't been to a theater since pre-COVID.


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## Ryujin (Oct 26, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> As a fan of cinema as art, I want to argue that 4 hour movies should exist.  There are a number of classics that wouldn't be the same without their extended run times.  Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Cleopatra, etc, are all very long and deserve the extra length.  And I don't think turning things into a series is always an alternative; that imposes it's own form upon the story that simple doesn't work all the time.  I say we should bring back long movies with an intermission.
> 
> OTOH, the Snyder cut doesn't exactly feel like the best champion for this cause.  And I haven't been to a theater since pre-COVID.



I was going to mention intermissions, but you got there. I haven't been in a theatre that was showing anything but a play, that had an intermission, since I was maybe 6-7 years old.


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## MGibster (Oct 27, 2022)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> _*James Gunn Era Ends at Warner Bros. Discovery With Acrimonious Departure; What Went Wrong?*_



They'll probably discover that Gunn made some unfortunate comments online more than a decade ago and will cut ties.


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## Blue Orange (Oct 27, 2022)

Deset Gled said:


> As a fan of cinema as art, I want to argue that 4 hour movies should exist.  There are a number of classics that wouldn't be the same without their extended run times.  Gone with the Wind, Lawrence of Arabia, Cleopatra, etc, are all very long and deserve the extra length.  And I don't think turning things into a series is always an alternative; that imposes it's own form upon the story that simple doesn't work all the time.  I say we should bring back long movies with an intermission.
> 
> OTOH, the Snyder cut doesn't exactly feel like the best champion for this cause.  And I haven't been to a theater since pre-COVID.



I kind of agree the Snyder cut may not be the optimal champion...but if it does help make longer films more viable, I'm all in favor of that. I'd like to see more kinds of movies, longer and shorter.


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