# Battlestar Galactica:Season 2; Part 5 NSCR/8.12.05



## Truth Seeker (Aug 12, 2005)

"The Farm", Episode #205

Adama returns to duty; Starbuck makes a chilling discovery while recovering from her wounds on Caprica.

*Cast*: *Edward James Olmos, Mary McDonnell, Katee Sackhoff, Jamie Bamber, James Callis, Tricia Helfer, Grace Park.*

Today's Quote:_I lied to you, Sharon. I covered up your true nature, from the rest of the fleet, for my own puposes_. From Baltar to Sharon. This man is the VP, a scientist and god knows what else.

He scares me.

Okay, okay today's rant & commentary will be just this.

This show is driving people nuts.

The knowledge font has been tapped, from the sublime to the obvious.

Religious and military ideals have been questioned in a near 360 circle.

People are making predictions, on what course, some characters will go...and some or a few hate other characters.

All I have to say on this, how would you do it? How would you act? And the truthful answer is...no one knows, until the situation comes into being at that specific moment.

The situation can change then and there, and all we can do at the time. Is to do the best, we can respond with.

The overall term is called a _pressure cooker scene._

Like it or not, this is the case with this show...and only this show...but I have noted a familiar theme. I dare say it, but it feels like a near -24- time run.

And now, just as reminder, there are *5 *eps left, *5* for this year...and you honestly think the pressure is going away?

 ...after listening to Roger Moore on the podcast talk via Quicktime player...and I felled alsleep in the middle. I heard his gab, and heard enough, on how tough it is, to maintain the beat, but Frack, he is doing it. With the staff and actors on hand. A very great effort I must say.

In a nutshell...people are going to do what they have to...to survive. That much was seen on the C&C, with the divided pools of self interest.

And finally, the look on Six's face, when the discussion about Sharon *Boomer 1* being a lab rat for tests. Holy Speck...she was feeling something. That was background filler, just like in the C&C, when Tigh ordered the stand down for the escaping Raptor...the look of relief from the crew, was just damn priceless.

No one there can take another setback. And yeah, don't ignore the background fillers...they are telling a story too.

Now...enjoy tonight's show.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 12, 2005)

I thought that is had been renewed for a 20 epsoid season and we have 5 left for the summer and 10 comming january?


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 12, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> I thought that is had been renewed for a 20 epsoid season and we have 5 left for the summer and 10 comming january?




You are correct, but people might have withdrawl pains, between now and then


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 12, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> You are correct, but people might have withdrawl pains, between now and then




I know I will.  I'm really hoping something halfway decent shows up during the new Network season that might distract me until January, but I'm not very optimistic.


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## DM_Matt (Aug 13, 2005)

I might have missed previous references to it, but did Boomer quote the Bible?  Is this new?  I know the cylons are monotheistic, but has it been previously established that they follow the earth Bible?


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## dravot (Aug 13, 2005)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> I might have missed previous references to it, but did Boomer quote the Bible?  Is this new?  I know the cylons are monotheistic, but has it been previously established that they follow the earth Bible?



Nah...no Bible.  I think that it's a generic phrase, not the specific one.

What an episode.  Gah.


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## ecliptic (Aug 13, 2005)

The entire thing still stinks of cylon manipulation. I think the leader of the resistance is a cylon.


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## dravot (Aug 13, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> The entire thing still stinks of cylon manipulation. I think the leader of the resistance is a cylon.



Yeah, but you think everyone is a cylon.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 13, 2005)

Damn, needed cleenex...this was some frackin' mess frack up.

Just...damn.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 13, 2005)

I think we're headed to see a bunch of little Starbuck cylons.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 13, 2005)

SO at some point in the past two days, Comcast decides to move SciFi channel off of my cable package, without notification.  I had heard this might happen, so I called them ahead of time, and they said, "No, we're not going to do that," and Friday night - no Sci Fi channel..  Lovely.


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## dravot (Aug 13, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> SO at some point in the past two days, Comcast decides to move SciFi channel off of my cable package, without notification.  I had heard this might happen, so I called them ahead of time, and they said, "No, we're not going to do that," and Friday night - no Sci Fi channel..  Lovely.



Want a recap of what happened?


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## TanisFrey (Aug 13, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> SO at some point in the past two days, Comcast decides to move SciFi channel off of my cable package, without notification.  I had heard this might happen, so I called them ahead of time, and they said, "No, we're not going to do that," and Friday night - no Sci Fi channel..  Lovely.



TVIO to the rescue.
http://apnews1.iwon.com/article/20050813/D8BUMLNG0.html

Well, eventualy.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 13, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I think we're headed to see a bunch of little Starbuck cylons.




Maybe, but then again, after that discussion with Boomer #2. I can see why, they might seek out her *Starbuck's* genetic material.

And the morgue scene...was just, was just...painful.

Now, the bigger question is Boomer's #2, new survival mode "Me is mommy, me must protect the father of my child, me...must feel...love".

Is she still on the of being a human in a sense, or still the test subject, for their *Cylons*_ new_ breeding program.

And that doctor, that doctor *on planetside*...was cool. And again, scary.

Will rewatch everything again, later today. Saw it in the sunless morning, I was vunerable, and hence, the cleenex situation *was tired from work*

Okay...must go. Have things to do today.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 13, 2005)

ecliptic said:
			
		

> The entire thing still stinks of cylon manipulation. I think the leader of the resistance is a cylon.




Paranoid?


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 13, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> SO at some point in the past two days, Comcast decides to move SciFi channel off of my cable package, without notification. I had heard this might happen, so I called them ahead of time, and they said, "No, we're not going to do that," and Friday night - no Sci Fi channel.. Lovely.




That really sucks!


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 13, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> SO at some point in the past two days, Comcast decides to move SciFi channel off of my cable package, without notification.  I had heard this might happen, so I called them ahead of time, and they said, "No, we're not going to do that," and Friday night - no Sci Fi channel..  Lovely.



KC - there was a message like _two months ago_ that this was going to happen (there is such a thing as warning too much in advance).  You don't have the basic digital package?  All they did was really move the channel to 160.  (yes, KC and I share the same cable provider in the same area.)  Otherwise, I can tape Monday's repeat ep for you if needed.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 13, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> And that doctor, that doctor *on planetside*...was cool. And again, scary.




Yeah, but unfortunately, as soon as she opened her eyes, I assumed 



Spoiler



that she was a prisoner of the Cylons


 -- I was disappointed to find out I was right.  It spoiled what would have otherwise been a good plot twist.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 13, 2005)

Glad they've got the drumming preview back in the opening credits. Loved that, missed it.

Also, do you think there was a reason that they showed a patch and/or bandage on Kara's skin early in the episode? It was really big, on her back near her left shoulderblade, and it was so big that it seems like there must be something to it.

I assumed the same thing, Olgar, but it worked for me just fine.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 13, 2005)

Just rewatching it now, they use music cues and pauses very heavily in those early scenes with the doctor, tricks designed to bring us in on it, imo.


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## Elf Witch (Aug 14, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> SO at some point in the past two days, Comcast decides to move SciFi channel off of my cable package, without notification.  I had heard this might happen, so I called them ahead of time, and they said, "No, we're not going to do that," and Friday night - no Sci Fi channel..  Lovely.




That bites I hate Comcast I had them when I lived in a different city sCI-FI was always diigital in my area.

My roommate works for a compnay that handles a lot of Comcast billing and trouble shooting. Chicago is one of the areas (its weird south Florida is handle in Cananda.) She says that notification was in the last two bills.  Though she is very glad she did not have to work this weekend because our other roomate works at the same place and people have been calling all weekend really upset about this. 

SCI-FI is a very popular station and there are plans to move it to digital in all Comcast areas eventually. This is why we got a Direct TV it was cheaper for more stations.

BTW a lot of people have put pressure on Comcast to make it a SCI_FI digital because of the quality of shows like Battlestar Galatica the digital signal is a cleaner brighter signal.


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## drothgery (Aug 14, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Yeah, but unfortunately, as soon as she opened her eyes, I assumed
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Err... this is a thread about Episode 5. I think it's okay to leave out spoiler warnings for that episode here.

In any case, it seemed pretty likely that Starbuck was a prisoner when neither Helo nor Pyramid-boy were around when she woke up.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Aug 14, 2005)

Was it just me, or was the opening music and the scenes in Ep 5 different than the previous episodes?

I know they changed them for the new season, and 5 may have been the same as 4, but it seemed different in 5 (like showing scenes with a live Adama).


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 14, 2005)

The music's just the non-US music that's been with the series from the beginning over in the UK. And there's also some Season 1 clips in the opening instead of just the miniseries...they also added into the short preview of the episode that was about to start, but it was much shorter than the ones from last season.


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 14, 2005)

NSCR=No Spoiler Caps Required.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 14, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> In any case, it seemed pretty likely that Starbuck was a prisoner when neither Helo nor Pyramid-boy were around when she woke up.




Yes.

Also, the first thing I thought was "Wow, that's a lot of lights on.  Where's the power coming from, and where are the blackout curtains?"

The doctor-cylon is a really bad liar, too; I really can't believe that having guts liquefy from radiation poisoning isn't painful.  Even if you've got vast quantities of supplies, since they're limited, it's probably best to just finish off terminal patients so they don't suffer and draw down your resources.  I guess he was counting on Starbuck being doped up so she didn't disbelieve him.

Brad


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 14, 2005)

It is going to be interesting to see what happens when Boomer returns to Galactica with Starbuck and Helo.  Do you think the Chief will be jealous that she is carrying Helo's baby?


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## Aexalon (Aug 14, 2005)

Theory: Adama is the prophet, not Roslin.

Argumentation: In season 1, after the intro theme, we get drumbeat-future-flashes. At end of season 1, Adama gets shot, and goes comatose. Season 2 begins, and drumbeat-future-flashes are gone. At the end of 4th ep of season 2, Adama comes out of coma. And lo, as of the 5th ep, drumbeat-future-flashes are back ...

QED.


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## drothgery (Aug 14, 2005)

One other thing -- I rather like the show, but does anyone else think the science of Battlestar Galactica makes Star Trek look logical and internally consistent? Did all the writers flunk high school biology?


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## Truth Seeker (Aug 14, 2005)

aexalon said:
			
		

> Theory: Adama is the prophet, not Roslin.
> 
> Argumentation: In season 1, after the intro theme, we get drumbeat-future-flashes. At end of season 1, Adama gets shot, and goes comatose. Season 2 begins, and drumbeat-future-flashes are gone. At the end of 4th ep of season 2, Adama comes out of coma. And lo, as of the 5th ep, drumbeat-future-flashes are back ...
> 
> QED.



Hmmm, sounds interesting.


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## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Aug 14, 2005)

aexalon said:
			
		

> Theory: Adama is the prophet, not Roslin.
> 
> Argumentation: In season 1, after the intro theme, we get drumbeat-future-flashes. At end of season 1, Adama gets shot, and goes comatose. Season 2 begins, and drumbeat-future-flashes are gone. At the end of 4th ep of season 2, Adama comes out of coma. And lo, as of the 5th ep, drumbeat-future-flashes are back ...
> 
> QED.



 I think you may be on to something there.

Though one thing that's been bothering me...what did the Cylon's actually DO to Starbuck? Would it have been possible to transfer Boomer's baby to Starbuck? Remember, she said that the Cylons are having trouble with breeding...and Starbuck is 'very special'.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 14, 2005)

aexalon said:
			
		

> Theory: Adama is the prophet, not Roslin.
> 
> Argumentation: In season 1, after the intro theme, we get drumbeat-future-flashes. At end of season 1, Adama gets shot, and goes comatose. Season 2 begins, and drumbeat-future-flashes are gone. At the end of 4th ep of season 2, Adama comes out of coma. And lo, as of the 5th ep, drumbeat-future-flashes are back ...



Then there's the reverse spin on that: Roslin *is* the prophet.

At the end of season 1, when we lose the drum beats & flashes into the future, Roslin has been deposed as the President and leader (since the prophet is supposed to lead them).  In the 5th episode, she has reasserted control of the fleet and her role of leading the people to Kobol and then to Earth.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 14, 2005)

If I were Starbuck, I sure would have been suspicious as hell as to why that doc needed to do a pelvic exam. What, would he have done a prostate exam on a man? In an _aid_ hospital? I hardly think so.

A couple of possibilities on the additional surgery she received: They removed the cyst from her ovary because they want to help ensure she makes a baby, they removed one ovary entirely in order to harvest eggs from it, they harvested eggs but left the ovary in place, they implanted someone else's fetus, or they removed an egg, performed in-vitro fertilization with Cylon seed, and implanted the fertilized egg (or eggs).

I love the theories about the precognitive drum sequences! Great stuff!


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## Fast Learner (Aug 14, 2005)

Truth Seeker said:
			
		

> NSCR=No Spoiler Caps Required.



I'd wondered what that was, thanks!

(Maybe no spoiler Code required? Either way, makes much more sense now.)


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## Wolf72 (Aug 14, 2005)

hmm, maybe Roslin is the catalyst for Adama ...


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 15, 2005)

Well, it looks like Roslin and her followers won't be waiting long for that arrow. It should be very interesting to see Starbuck, Helo, and Caprica-Boomer come back to this situation. Especially since I have to wonder... does C-Boomer know Galactica-Boomer is dead? That would be an awkward situation to come back to, especially given the events that have happened since. I'm also looking forward to Starbuck being put in the middle of everything... sure, she might have jumped off against Adama's orders, but will she really join Roslin? Somehow, I think that's farther than she's willing to go.

[edit] Also, note when C-Boomer comes back... right after G-Boomer is killed.

One thing I'm _really_ surprised about is that Adama is not only upkeeping the martial law, but making more use of it than Tigh did. I kind of expected him to come back and fix the whole mess, make peace and get things moving. I know he knows the fleet must be unified or die to the Cylons, and this doesn't seem to be the way to help that goal. His behavior just seems odd to me.

I have to wonder at this juncture if Doc Cottle is a Cylon. We know he's had direct, medical contact with both Roslin and Adama. We know the Cylons can doctor, we know they have some sort of biotech. Cottle has Roslin hooked on some sort of psychotropic drug. He operated on Adama at least once that we saw. He seems in too good a position to influence the whole thing.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 15, 2005)

It's worth noting that Roslin asked for that drug, that the Doc warned her against it, and that she insisted anyway, knowing about its addictiveness.


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 15, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> One other thing -- I rather like the show, but does anyone else think the science of Battlestar Galactica makes Star Trek look logical and internally consistent? Did all the writers flunk high school biology?



Can you give some specific examples of what you're talking about?


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## LightPhoenix (Aug 15, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> It's worth noting that Roslin asked for that drug, that the Doc warned her against it, and that she insisted anyway, knowing about its addictiveness.




See, I know she's president and all, and Cottle is supposed to be somewhat... rougher around the edges than the classical portrayal of a doctor.  Still, I really don't think most doctors would let someone go on a highly addictive, hallucinogenic drug for very long if at all.  Steroid use (I know, they're not hallucinogens), for example, is very highly monitored and patients are generally weaned off of it as soon as possible, since the body can become dependant on it.  I see it as analogous to a doctor precribing mescaline for a patient.  Which, as I type it, is probably the basis for whatever her mystical plant is supposed to be.

It's also a point of interest as to where this is coming from, since it seems like it would be a controlled substance.  It's obviously not widely available, or Billy would have gotten some himself.  Why would Cottle have a stock of this stuff?


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## dravot (Aug 15, 2005)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> It's also a point of interest as to where this is coming from, since it seems like it would be a controlled substance.  It's obviously not widely available, or Billy would have gotten some himself.  Why would Cottle have a stock of this stuff?



He didn't have any in stock.  He said in the mini-series that someone out in the fleet had to have some, and he'd seek it out for her.


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## drothgery (Aug 15, 2005)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> Can you give some specific examples of what you're talking about?




The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human.

How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?

(Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?

The technobabble around Baltar's Cylon detector is loony. If the human-looking Cylons are pretty much geneticly engineered humans (and if they're interfertile with humans, they have to be), then there may be telltale genetic markers that indicate Cylon bioengineering, but there's not going to be anything unusually about the underlying molecular structure.

If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?

Just for a start.


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## dravot (Aug 15, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human.
> 
> How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?
> 
> ...



All excellent questions, and most of them I've asked myself at one time or another.  I trust in Ron Moore to have decent answers for them, and I hope that we'll find out at some point.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 15, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?



Why do these have to be related?  They could be engineered to be able to store high amount of oxygen in their tissues, or certain tissues, that can be used as an emergency oxygen source - what does that have to do with not being interfertile?



> (Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?



 Certain proteins are not engineered quite right, when you combine two copies of gene "a" it results in a non-viable egg.  Combine with a "wild-type" gene and it can survive because the wild-type gene (its resulting protien) sustains the new embryo.  Or, on a more metaphysical take: cylons do not in fact have souls and need humans and their souls to give their offspring life.



> The technobabble around Baltar's Cylon detector is loony. If the human-looking Cylons are pretty much geneticly engineered humans (and if they're interfertile with humans, they have to be), then there may be telltale genetic markers that indicate Cylon bioengineering, but there's not going to be anything unusually about the underlying molecular structure.



 Absoultely, but Baltar has not really been looking to be all that effective in his screening anyway, and he loves to make people think that only his genius can help them and he works oh, so hard sacrificing so much for them, so who says he picked the best, or easiest method?  



> If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?



 If the need is for certain "wild-type" proteins to start fertilization, you will likely need eggs and sperm from living humans.  Degradation of dead tissues may cause problems.  If the key is metaphysical, then dead people's souls have moved on and cannot impart some of their essence to their offspring.


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## WizarDru (Aug 15, 2005)

drothgery said:
			
		

> The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human.




Yes and No.  I think the issue here is do you consider a clone to be a human being?  It's the same as saying they have 'artificial intelligence'.  At what point do they stop being considered 'artificially' intelligent.  When they pass a Turing test?  Mind you, I think Baltar is a BIG LIAR; a very lucky one, but a LIAR all the same.  I'm not sure he knew if Sharon was a cylon or not.

I do think that it's possible to make a clone who's genetic material defies the normal mutations you'd expect.  If Boomer's DNA, for example, has a some non-standard variances (or more likely, the lack thereof), that'd be something an advanced test might find.  Who knows what shortcuts the cylons have taken?  Which isn't to say Baltar's technobabble isn't just that.  We'll have to wait and see on that one.



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?




Dumb question: when did one of the human models do that?



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> (Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?




Heh.  That's a big assumption.   We don't know any of the limitations or failures of the process, yet.  I'm willing to bet the human model cylons have lots of flaws and drawbacks...we just haven't seen them blatantly laid out, as of yet.  For that matter, we don't know exactly how they're trying to reproduce....there may be restrictions based on holy doctrine which are limiting their approach.



			
				drothgery said:
			
		

> If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?




From one of the many dead, irradiated people?  I'm not sure I'd trust whatever the dead had to offer, assuming they could be salvaged.  Within 15 minutes after death, the body begins cooling, which certainly creates problems for the human reproductive cycle, which is dependent on strict control of the internal body temperature to maintain fertility.  I'm sure there's a whole lot of biological reasons that could be given.

More importantly, I think a big factor that can't be discounted is the cylon's relgious and social outlooks.  There may be far better ways to accomplish what they're doing...but their scriptures and their issues with mankind may get in the way of that.


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 15, 2005)

> How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but can breathe in a vacuum?



Thornir's explaination is quite reasonable.



> (Assuming the Boomer on Caprica isn't lying) How can you build something that's interfertile with humans but not with others of its own kind?



I think the assumption that might be off the mark is that they _want_ the copies to be intrafertile.  I don't think that's the case.  I think the cylon's religious/metaphysical beliefs are leading their 'experiment' - the idea of 'merging with their makers' in a very literal sense might be driving their efforts.  Think of it as the religious stem-cell arguments in reverse 



> The basic problem is that something indistinguishable from a human by the tests Baltar came up with before his 'Cylon detector' can't be anything but pretty much human. [...] The technobabble around Baltar's Cylon detector is loony. If the human-looking Cylons are pretty much geneticly engineered humans (and if they're interfertile with humans, they have to be), then there may be telltale genetic markers that indicate Cylon bioengineering, but there's not going to be anything unusually about the underlying molecular structure.



My take on this is the cylons have pushed the limits on what 'genetically engineered' means.  When we do it today, we're only working with existing information in a particular genome, manipulating existing characteristics to express themselves (or not), or, in some cases, simply splicing characteristics from another source to existing genes (like bioluminessence.)  

We cannot, however, add totally new genes or genetic material designed from scratch.  I think the cylons can, either by replacing the 'junk' DNA the human genome is full of, or by making the DNA strands of genes much more densely packed. This would have a different molecular structure. However, through a conventional microscope it could be made to still appear contained in the standard number of human chromosomes.  Only rigorous genetic profiling (which is all the 'cylon detector' appears to be) would reveal the differences. 

Think of it this way: in the computer world, you can have hardware system A which can run software which allows it to function as if the hardware system B. B is a virtual machine, by which A can now run software programs designed for B.  So the cylon copies are running a human 'virtual machine' on top of their genome, which gives all the outward appearances of a human (from blood to interfertility with real humans.)  The base machine (genome), however, contains all the 'extra-human' abilities - superior strength, 'uploading' of their consciousness to other copies at death, glowing spinal columns during sex... 

However, should the cylon models intrabreed, it would be like system A trying to run another copy of system A, but through system B.  Possible, but usually system B is less complex than A, so it is not capable of running a copy of A.  A, however, is much more likely to be able to run another copy of B (a hybrid baby.)  This is probably the approach the cylons are taking.

It likely takes a great deal of effort to design these base genomes plus the human gene expressions they are emulating, thus the limited number of models we see...  The human genome being emulated might have to be very specific, also, and need to come from an actual human sample.  This might be another reason behind the 'farms'.  I also think Starbuck may be one of those with suitable characteristics, and we may be seeing a few copies of her as 'Model 13' (the model for Kobol?)



> If you want to create a human-Cylon hybrid, and you've got highly advanced biotech, can't you just use human sperm or ova from one of the millions of dead people around instead of creating an elaborate set-up?



Again, I think the Cylons are letting the tenets of their belief system guide their efforts, and the more direct approach you suggest may not satisfy the metaphysical goal behind it all.  (Doesn't matter if the naturally conceived hybrids are actually embued with a 'soul'; what matters is if the cylons believe they are.)  They could do what you're suggesting, they just don't want to.


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## dravot (Aug 15, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Dumb question: when did one of the human models do that?



Galactica Boomer did when she put the nuke on the Basestar at the end of S1


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## WizarDru (Aug 15, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> Galactica Boomer did when she put the nuke on the Basestar at the end of S1




It's funny, but I assumed there was some sort of atmosphere in there.  In fact, since they were TALKING, didn't there have to be?  That, and there was a sticky, warm floor surface that her feet kind of stuck to?  Certainly was the cold vacuum of space there.


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## dravot (Aug 15, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> It's funny, but I assumed there was some sort of atmosphere in there.  In fact, since they were TALKING, didn't there have to be?  That, and there was a sticky, warm floor surface that her feet kind of stuck to?  Certainly was the cold vacuum of space there.



No doubt.  There was an implication of the need for a helmet though, and Boomer's navigator definitely thought it was odd that Boomer climbed back in _sans_ helmet.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 15, 2005)

Ok, perhaps this is a dumb question but did I miss something somewhere along the line that would have introduced the woman (Sha-Shawn?) that Starbuck found hooked up to all the machines?  Starbuck obviously knew her but I don't remember seeing her before.  Was she part of the resistance or are we supposed to believe that Starbuck just stumbled across someone she knew from before the war?

I must admit I'm curious about why Starbuck is "Special" to the Cylons.  Also about what they did while she was "under".   

Next episode is going to be interesting as they get back to the fleet.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 15, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Ok, perhaps this is a dumb question but did I miss something somewhere along the line that would have introduced the woman (Sha-Shawn?) that Starbuck found hooked up to all the machines?  Starbuck obviously knew her but I don't remember seeing her before.  Was she part of the resistance or are we supposed to believe that Starbuck just stumbled across someone she knew from before the war?



When Starbuck and Helo first met the resistance group, she was holding a gun on either Starbuck or Helo (can't remember exactly who was aiming at who) and to me looked like she _ really _ wanted to pull the trigger.  My guess is that there is a deleted scene or two showing her and Starbuck coming to respect one another.


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## WizarDru (Aug 15, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> No doubt. There was an implication of the need for a helmet though, and Boomer's navigator definitely thought it was odd that Boomer climbed back in _sans_ helmet.




Yeah, but it was a 'Hey, where'd your helmet go?' not a 'Holy Frack! How'd you survive out there?!?' kind of reaction, iirc.  It didn't seem like the ship went through a pressurization/de-pressurization when she entered/exited, and again Racetrack's reaction wasn't so incredulous as to sidetrack the mission or be of note later.

Plus, if cylons can hold their breath in a vacuum, why would Sharon need oxygen tanks and diving equipment when sabotaging the ship's water supply back in episode 2?  It's got to be easier to hold your breath in water than a vacuum, right?


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## Fast Learner (Aug 15, 2005)

Right, Racetrack would have surely been all over that back at the Galactica. "SHE SURVIVED A VACUUM! SHE MUST BE A CYLON!" Instead she must have recognized that there was an atomosphere.

And yeah, with the talking. And the diving equipment.

Human-model Cylons have not shown that they can survive in a vacuum in the show.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 15, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> When Starbuck and Helo first met the resistance group, she was holding a gun on either Starbuck or Helo (can't remember exactly who was aiming at who) and to me looked like she _ really _ wanted to pull the trigger.  My guess is that there is a deleted scene or two showing her and Starbuck coming to respect one another.



Ah, ok.  I see.  Thanks.


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 15, 2005)

If my memory isn't playing tricks on me, there's a love scene with a cylon woman in it, where we can see her bared back, and there's a red light running up and down her spine (reminiscent of the old cylons' eye-lights.)  Wouldn't this indicate a machine-component in the human-model cylons?  Or am I misremembering?

I always assumed they were similar to the T-500 terminator cyborgs.  Tissue grafted onto a mechanical endoskeleton.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 16, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> If my memory isn't playing tricks on me, there's a love scene with a cylon woman in it, where we can see her bared back, and there's a red light running up and down her spine (reminiscent of the old cylons' eye-lights.)  Wouldn't this indicate a machine-component in the human-model cylons?  Or am I misremembering?
> 
> I always assumed they were similar to the T-500 terminator cyborgs.  Tissue grafted onto a mechanical endoskeleton.



The nature of this "light" in unclear so far (I believe even the writers don´t know it yet. It was originally just a idea they had for the mini and aren´t certain what to do with it now, except sticking to it for continuity reason). 
They are "T-500", otherwise it would be a lot easier to distinguish Cylons and Humans - you don´t need Baltar for that. 

According to the podcast, it might be very well possible that there are metaphysical reasons involved in the distinction between humans and cylons and their respective abilities to create off-spring...


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 16, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Yeah, but it was a 'Hey, where'd your helmet go?' not a 'Holy Frack! How'd you survive out there?!?' kind of reaction, iirc.  It didn't seem like the ship went through a pressurization/de-pressurization when she entered/exited, and again Racetrack's reaction wasn't so incredulous as to sidetrack the mission or be of note later.




Yep.  The cabin apparently didn't depressurize when she opened the door (or de-vacuum, either).

I figure that the changes made to the anthroforms* are minor enough that one could survive a thorough medical exam without any major possibility of being detected.  There's probably an upgrade to their musculoskeletal system to make them stronger, and something similar to their nervous system to give them better reactions.

I suspect that another change to their CNS allows them to do their FTL communication schtick.

Brad

* - I like to be technical.


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## Volaran (Aug 16, 2005)

I would be inclined to agree that there was an atmosphere in the Basestar.  They were able to speak, ect.  It would have been strange that she was missing her helmet anyway, as there is no reason she would have needed to take it off to remove the3 nuclear device.

Has it not been suggested that she could survive great pressure though?  When they were investigating the bombing of the water supply, I seem to recall the Chief mentioning that no human could survive the pressure within the tank.


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## Sir Brennen (Aug 16, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> I figure that the changes made to the anthroforms* are minor enough that one could survive a thorough medical exam without any major possibility of being detected.  There's probably an upgrade to their musculoskeletal system to make them stronger, and something similar to their nervous system to give them better reactions.



But these cylons consider themselves an entirely separate _species_, not just humans with minor upgrades.  If that were true, why not make many more models, instead of the same ones over and over?  Why do they find it so important to breed with humans, if they're already essentially human?  Personally, I think there is something fundamentally different about the anthroforms, as you call them.


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## WizarDru (Aug 16, 2005)

Sir Brennen said:
			
		

> But these cylons consider themselves an entirely separate _species_, not just humans with minor upgrades. If that were true, why not make many more models, instead of the same ones over and over? Why do they find it so important to breed with humans, if they're already essentially human? Personally, I think there is something fundamentally different about the anthroforms, as you call them.




I think Moore has stated that there are 12 anthroforms, and that they model what Cylons believe to be the 12 different types of humans.  What criteria they're using is, of course, a source of conjecture.  Whether or not they link the 12 Lords of Kobol with the 12 types of humans is anyone's guess;  I suspect they have two reasons for using the anthroforms: 

1) This reproduction stuff is tricky.  Seriously.  Millenia of Evolution isn't as easily copied as they thought, and making their own model isn't working.  They are, after all, mechanical beings.  Clearly, they have an idea in their heads that simply copying an existing model is not truly procreating...it has to be a 'natural' process.  They're incapable, so they've been developing their own organics...but it doesn't work well.  This would explain the organic nature of the raiders, for example: they may have been an early attempt.

2) Parental Issues.  It may not have even occured to them to go about it a different way.  The cylons clearly have issues dealing with mankind, in a love/hate relationship with them.  They are the ultimate rebellious child, and that colors their thinking.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 17, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> 1) This reproduction stuff is tricky.  Seriously.  Millenia of Evolution isn't as easily copied as they thought, and making their own model isn't working.




Heck, yeah.  There are many people today who have issues conceiving.

I'm also thinking that maybe, either the cloning process itself, or the nature of their augmentations, may interfere.  Perhaps the genes for super-strength interfere with their reproductive tracts such that the male versions can't impregnate the female versions, and vice versa, and have a very limited chance with normal human sperm/ova.

Perhaps the anthroforms are designed to be infertile, except in certain limited cases?



> 2) Parental Issues.  It may not have even occured to them to go about it a different way.  The cylons clearly have issues dealing with mankind, in a love/hate relationship with them.  They are the ultimate rebellious child, and that colors their thinking.




Hrm.  Freud could have a lot to say about the cylons.

Brad


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## dravot (Aug 17, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Hrm.  Freud could have a lot to say about the cylons.
> 
> Brad



Note to Starbuck: sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 17, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Perhaps the anthroforms are designed to be infertile, except in certain limited cases?




Possibly to control them, keep them from taking over?  This comes back to the question I keep having: who created the anthroform cylons?  My impression of the centurions is that they don't exhibit a whole lot of independent creative thinking.  Is there another class of cylons that are thinkers/researchers/developers?  Is there just one who somehow developed new abilities to think beyond its programming, or were they developed by humans?  Is whoever created them who they consider to be the one true god?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 17, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Possibly to control them, keep them from taking over?  This comes back to the question I keep having: who created the anthroform cylons?  My impression of the centurions is that they don't exhibit a whole lot of independent creative thinking.  Is there another class of cylons that are thinkers/researchers/developers?  Is there just one who somehow developed new abilities to think beyond its programming, or were they developed by humans?  Is whoever created them who they consider to be the one true god?



Maybe we just don´t see enough from the Cylons - maybe they usually don´t communicate verbally, but use radio waves. 
Maybe, as they were fighting the resistance in this episode, they shouted each other commands, and when the Heavy Raider appeared, on of them screamed "holy frack!" before he was shot down... 
I guess as long as we can´t hear their conversation, we have little chance to know how independent they actually are...


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 17, 2005)

> I must admit I'm curious about why Starbuck is "Special" to the Cylons. Also about what they did while she was "under".




Starbuck has a destiny. It is wrapped up in part with the Arrow of Apollo, but is clearly more than that.  What, exactly, that is remains to be revealed.  The Cylons know she is special though; one of the humans who has powers and abilities beyond the norm.

As for what they did, Ron Moore's Podcast makes it clear that they took one of Starbuck's ovaries, enraging Starbuck and raising the spectre of Starbuck / Cylon hybrid children at some point in the series - if not outright Starbuck modified copies. I, for one, expect this a some point late this season or next.

In Borg talk, the Cylons are so impressed with Starbuck that they wish to add her biological distinctiveness to their own and are prepared to exert considerable efforts and divert laboratory resources to attempt to do so. 

For those who have not made a habit of listening to Ron Moore's podcasts, I urge you to do so. It adds a lot of context and backstory to what you see on the screen. Very interesting stuff.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 17, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> Maybe we just don´t see enough from the Cylons - maybe they usually don´t communicate verbally, but use radio waves.
> Maybe, as they were fighting the resistance in this episode, they shouted each other commands, and when the Heavy Raider appeared, on of them screamed "holy frack!" before he was shot down...
> I guess as long as we can´t hear their conversation, we have little chance to know how independent they actually are...



In the 78 series you ocationaly saw things from the Cyclon point of view, mainly because there was no coloniel present in the seen.  We have not seen this in the in the new show since the miniseries.  We have only seen things from an prespective of the coloniels.

In the 78 series there were 3 types of cyclon.  The typical Silver toster.  The Gold "Commander" toster, was seen a couple of times.  And the "thinker" cyclon with the lights in their head.  A LARP friend wants this last model come back.

The Silver toster had no personality.  The Golds made desitions for BaseStars.  And the thinkers has full blown personaliaties.


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## dravot (Aug 17, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> In the 78 series you occasionally saw things from the Cyclon point of view, mainly because there was no colonial present in the scene.  We have not seen this in the in the new show since the miniseries.  We have only seen things from an perspective of the colonials.



Not true.  In S1, we saw some of the human cylons as they tracked Helo on Caprica.  "If he goes North, we kill him.  If he goes South, we let him live."  We also learned that the Six cylon model hates the Boomer cylon model.


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## Thornir Alekeg (Aug 17, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> In the 78 series there were 3 types of cyclon.  The typical Silver toster.  The Gold "Commander" toster, was seen a couple of times.  And the "thinker" cyclon with the lights in their head.  A LARP friend wants this last model come back.




Didn't we also see some kind of "Supreme Commander" in a few episodes?  He was very shadowy, but I always thought he looked like he had some kind of afro going.  Lucifer (the one with the lights in his head) reported to him sitting on the big chair before Baltar took the seat.


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## TanisFrey (Aug 17, 2005)

dravot said:
			
		

> Not true.  In S1, we saw some of the human cylons as they tracked Helo on Caprica.  "If he goes North, we kill him.  If he goes South, we let him live."  We also learned that the Six cylon model hates the Boomer cylon model.



Being petty, there was still a human in the scean, Helo


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## TanisFrey (Aug 17, 2005)

Thornir Alekeg said:
			
		

> Didn't we also see some kind of "Supreme Commander" in a few episodes?  He was very shadowy, but I always thought he looked like he had some kind of afro going.  Lucifer (the one with the lights in his head) reported to him sitting on the big chair before Baltar took the seat.



It was going to be one of the last Reptillion cyclons but, they did not like way it look and refilmed to to be in the shadows or over its sholder.  Lucifer was one of the ones with the lights in his head, you got to see more of them in the Living Legend esps.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 17, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> Being petty, there was still a human in the scean, Helo



There were a variety of scenes during that episode, though, with only Cylons, primarily with Six and Sharon and the other guy talking and arguing.


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## dravot (Aug 17, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> There were a variety of scenes during that episode, though, with only Cylons, primarily with Six and Sharon and the other guy talking and arguing.



And even with the scene where they were observing Helo, he didn't know they were there.  They might as well have been viewing him via remote video from their super-Cylon hideout.


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## wingsandsword (Aug 17, 2005)

A bit of random speculation about the New BSG:

People have been wondering how to reconcile the "Life Here Began Out There" concept of BSG with the pretty overwhelming biological evidence that life on Earth originated on Earth.  Especially with the info that the Exodus from Kobol was only 3000 years ago, when there was very distinctly known civilizations on Earth already.

What if it did in BSG as well?

Say, several centuries from now, Earth is polluted and nearly ruined.  An exodus to a newly discovered inhabitable world across the Galaxy begins, with this new world named Kobol.  Kobol is the new home of Humans for a long time, centuries or millennia.  Eventually, Kobol itself was uninhabitable, so another Exodus was begun, this time to a series of 12 planets discovered further across the Galaxy, with one faction wanting to return to Earth and rebuild the original homeworld.  The "Earth" faction loses touch with the rest of the colonies (or even severs ties, disliking them for political or ideological reasons), and the Colonies spend their 3000 years before the Cylon Holocaust.  The idea that their civlization is distantly descended from ours makes them having the same road signs and fashions at least a little less strange (even if they are ancient designs, they are known to them).

Now, the Earth faction has had 3 millennia to rebuild Earth, and it's probably somewhere at least after the year 6000 AD to our calendar.  When they find Earth, will it have cities like Washington DC as ancient ruins preserved like we look at the crumbling remains of Rome?  Will there be an entire alternate Human government there with a a divergent culture or some kind of revival of older Earth beliefs.  If the Colonials are polytheistic, maybe the Earth Humans returned to the monotheistic beliefs common to Earth of our epoch, and if the Cylons have any reason to suspect this (they infiltrated the Colonies, maybe information on ancient beliefs of Kobol before the Lords of Kobol were worshipped as gods indicated a monotheistic belief system, hence Boomer's quote of "be fruitful"), thus the great Cylon interest in finding Earth, finding Humans who share their beliefs, and the Cylons attacked trying to force the Prophecy to come true so the Humans would lead them to Earth, where the Cylons hope to find a major addition to their religion?

Wild speculation, but I'm sitting here waiting for my ride to Gen Con to pick me up, and it just went through my head.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 18, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> A bit of random speculation about the New BSG:
> 
> People have been wondering how to reconcile the "Life Here Began Out There" concept of BSG with the pretty overwhelming biological evidence that life on Earth originated on Earth.  Especially with the info that the Exodus from Kobol was only 3000 years ago, when there was very distinctly known civilizations on Earth already.
> 
> What if it did in BSG as well?




Interesting.

I prefer the idea that a small remnant made it to Earth, somehow lost their tecnhology, landed in central Europe, and migrated south to form the Greeks with the existing Mycenean civilization.  It's a bit hard to account for losing their technology without having a generation ship, though.

Brad


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## Lord Pendragon (Aug 18, 2005)

I'm curious.  If the humanoid cylons are genetically engineered humans...then aren't the cylons engineering themselves out of existence?  I mean, once they are so close to human that they are indistinguishable _from_ humans and can breed with them, what is left that defines them as cylon?

For those who've watched all the episodes, has it been revealed/proven that the humanoid cylons are indeed 100% organic?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 18, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I'm curious.  If the humanoid cylons are genetically engineered humans...then aren't the cylons engineering themselves out of existence?  I mean, once they are so close to human that they are indistinguishable _from_ humans and can breed with them, what is left that defines them as cylon?
> 
> For those who've watched all the episodes, has it been revealed/proven that the humanoid cylons are indeed 100% organic?



It seems as if only dissection can show the differences, but it is impossible to say (from a viewers point of view) if that means there are inorganic parts or not...


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## Mercule (Aug 18, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Plus, if cylons can hold their breath in a vacuum, why would Sharon need oxygen tanks and diving equipment when sabotaging the ship's water supply back in episode 2? It's got to be easier to hold your breath in water than a vacuum, right?




I picked up Sci-Fi midway through the first season.  I didn't realize Sharon had done anything overtly "un-good" before shooting Adama.  I thought her "I'm not a cylon" scene was just little things.  

Can someone "spoiler" me on the water supply bit?


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## WizarDru (Aug 18, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> I'm curious. If the humanoid cylons are genetically engineered humans...then aren't the cylons engineering themselves out of existence? I mean, once they are so close to human that they are indistinguishable _from_ humans and can breed with them, what is left that defines them as cylon?
> 
> For those who've watched all the episodes, has it been revealed/proven that the humanoid cylons are indeed 100% organic?




They are 'virtually' indistinguishable from humans...at least to humans.  They clearly must be differences, given the ability to 'upload' their memories when they're destroyed.  No one has found all the exact differences, and Boomer would be the first corpse they've got to examine, so we'll probably get more details eventually.  The real problem is our expert opinion is Gaius...who isn't exactly a bastion of telling the truth (even to himself).

The first two questions are, I think, one of the driving questions of the series.  What defines you as being human?  Clearly they think they are superior...but they also are gazing into the abyss...and the abyss gazes also.


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## WizarDru (Aug 18, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> I picked up Sci-Fi midway through the first season. I didn't realize Sharon had done anything overtly "un-good" before shooting Adama. I thought her "I'm not a cylon" scene was just little things.
> 
> Can someone "spoiler" me on the water supply bit?




In brief: the second episode of season one, "Water", opens with Boomer coming to consciouness from a sort of 'sleepwalker' state.  She's dressed in a wetsuit with diving equipment, and in her duffel bag is a huge amount of plastique and a detonator.  When she goes to return it (in a panic), she finds that five more ARE MISSING.  Then...

well, heck, just read about it HERE.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 18, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> Can someone "spoiler" me on the water supply bit?




I don't remember the details, but Boomer was (almost certainly - I don't think we see absolute proof) responsible for blowing up a significant part of Galactica's water supply, putting the fleet at severe risk.  She appeared to have no memory of what she did, but the evidence was pretty damning.  Chief covered for her.  At this point, it was up in the air whether she was a Cylon or not, I think.  This may be the episode that introduced Caprica-Boomer, at which point we knew she was a Cylon for certain.  I'm not totally clear on that.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 18, 2005)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> They are 'virtually' indistinguishable from humans...at least to humans.  They clearly must be differences, given the ability to 'upload' their memories when they're destroyed.




They _say_ that they upload their memories when destroyed. I don't know if this has actually been confirmed.



> _No one has found all the exact differences, and Boomer would be the first corpse they've got to examine, so we'll probably get more details eventually._





No she isn't. They've bumped off a few other anthroforms before.


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## WizarDru (Aug 18, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I don't remember the details, but Boomer was (almost certainly - I don't think we see absolute proof) responsible for blowing up a significant part of Galactica's water supply, putting the fleet at severe risk. She appeared to have no memory of what she did, but the evidence was pretty damning. Chief covered for her. At this point, it was up in the air whether she was a Cylon or not, I think. This may be the episode that introduced Caprica-Boomer, at which point we knew she was a Cylon for certain. I'm not totally clear on that.




No, we already knew for certain.  In one of the last scenes of the mini-series, several of the anthroform cylons show up at the arms depot the Galactica rearmed at...Boomer was present and accounted for, removing all doubt.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 18, 2005)

Ah, right you are.  I missed the first half of the mini-series, but I do remember that scene now...


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## Fast Learner (Aug 19, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> No she isn't. They've bumped off a few other anthroforms before.



Except that they spaced the rest. So they've had no corpse until now. Like he said.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 19, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> They _say_ that they upload their memories when destroyed. I don't know if this has actually been confirmed.




While I sorely want to say it's a cruel mind trick played on the anthroforms ("Yeaaaah...we'll upload your consciousness, suuuuuure"), note that, in the season finale, Six recognized Starbuck.  While that's not conclusive proof (they could've found her file in the Colonial Military Archives), the particular viciousness that Six displayed suggests she knew that Starbuck, um, "knew" Baltar.

Brad


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## cignus_pfaccari (Aug 19, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> Except that they spaced the rest. So they've had no corpse until now. Like he said.




Nope.

They have the one Adama killed on the space station in the morgue.  Adama went and looked at it when they captured the one that Starbuck interrogated. 

They also would've had the bits of the one that played suicide bomber up in the Witch Hunt episode, though his remains wouldn't've been especially useful, except inasmuch as the internal bits and pieces were somewhat more accessible.

Brad


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## Safana Cain (Aug 19, 2005)

I would say that the humaniform Cylons are "constructed" humans in the sense that while they are completely organic - and even the glowing spine can be organic - they were built out of engineered tissue rather than grown as a whole piece like a person.  I'm thinking of the replicants from Blade Runner, who were all meat but nevertheless assembled, probably because much of their components couldn't be grown together naturally.

Or something.


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## Mercule (Aug 19, 2005)

Didn't know that about Blade Runner.  Kinda icky, but I like it.  It might also help to explain why they're looking at reproduction.


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