# Wheel of Time - No Spoilers



## Maxperson (Nov 19, 2021)

The release date is tomorrow, but apparently it was released early.  I'm watching episode 1 right now.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 19, 2021)

It is tomorrow here! I'm not watching until later though.


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## pming (Nov 19, 2021)

Hiya!

I guess Season 1 is only going to have 4 episodes? The first three are released, and the fourth on Dec 24...for some twisted reason.
Guess I know what I'll be watching on Dec 24th then... all of Season 1.

Binge Watching: It's the only REAL way to watch a series!


^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Dioltach (Nov 19, 2021)

Looking forward to giving it a go tonight!


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## eyeheartawk (Nov 19, 2021)

Finished all three episodes. As a book reader I don't know how I feel about the changes yet. 

I do dislike the costumes. At one point you see dudes walking around with puffy North Face jackets and brimmed mining hats. It's got a "elves with hoodies" MTV Shannara thing going on right now.


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## DarkCrisis (Nov 19, 2021)

It’s got a lot of little differences (and couple large ones) but im Digging it.


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## TheSword (Nov 19, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> Finished all three episodes. As a book reader I don't know how I feel about the changes yet.
> 
> I do dislike the costumes. At one point you see dudes walking around with puffy North Face jackets and brimmed mining hats. It's got a "elves with hoodies" MTV Shannara thing going on right now.



Ouch! That is my main concern!

At work now, but this evening is cleared in readiness for it


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## Umbran (Nov 19, 2021)

pming said:


> Binge Watching: It's the only REAL way to watch a series!




Hardly.  Binge watching denies us time to think about and process what we've seen.  It removes the opportunity to discuss what's going on in the show with others.

Binging a well-made show is like chugging fine cognac.


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## wicked cool (Nov 19, 2021)

ok watched first episode-I wont spoil anything however

As of the first episode this is clearly not as good as GOT and maybe not as good as the Witcher. I was expecting much much better based on the budget.  Its far superior to Shannara but in some ways its closer to that than i wanted

Why

There is something missing here-I call it Grittiness. The main character looks like Ryan Philippe and just stepped out of Riverdale. Its Jarring how he doesnt fit the time period even compared to the other characters


As of right now theres no personality to these characters. Theres no performance thats a wow moment. they feel flat compared to any GOT character  and dont capture the moment like Henry Cavill or even any Harry Potter character . Right away watching a lower budget show like Vikings i was hooked and there were characters that had Charisma


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 19, 2021)

pming said:


> Hiya!
> 
> I guess Season 1 is only going to have 4 episodes? The first three are released, and the fourth on Dec 24...for some twisted reason.
> Guess I know what I'll be watching on Dec 24th then... all of Season 1.
> ...



No, there are 8 episodes, 3 this week, then one a week until December 24.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 19, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> The release date is tomorrow, but apparently it was released early. I'm watching episode 1 right now.



It released at midnight GMT, so many places got it on the 19th, but those of us in the Western Hemisphere got it on the 18th


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 19, 2021)

Watched it last night. The first half of the first episode was a bit disjointed - you could tell they were trying to squeeze too much into too little time. After the action picked up (being vague so not to spoil), it improved quite a bit. Episodes 2 and 3 were definite improvements over Episode 1, with a lot more room to breathe, and were quite good.


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## Ryujin (Nov 19, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> Finished all three episodes. As a book reader I don't know how I feel about the changes yet.
> 
> I do dislike the costumes. At one point you see dudes walking around with puffy North Face jackets and brimmed mining hats. It's got a "elves with hoodies" MTV Shannara thing going on right now.



Hoods don't put me off. They were an actual medieval thing (though not attached to what looks like sweatshirts). For me the issue is as it usually is for costuming; it all looks new, because it is. If there's one thing that the BBC does remarkably well in their costuming department, it's to make period clothing look like it's been lived in. I wish other production groups would give as much thought to wardrobe.


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## pming (Nov 19, 2021)

Hiya!


Umbran said:


> Hardly.  Binge watching denies us time to think about and process what we've seen.  It removes the opportunity to discuss what's going on in the show with others.
> 
> Binging a well-made show is like chugging fine cognac.



Then I guess it depends on what one person's enjoyment and desire is then.  Some people savour the taste of fine cognac...others just want to get a nice buzz on. 

Personally I much prefer the binge watching. It keeps the little things in my head longer and lets me notice little things that might happen in later episodes. Of course, this assumes that the series actually has a competent writer that actually has the "whole thing planned out". 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## pming (Nov 19, 2021)

Hiya!


Demetrios1453 said:


> No, there are 8 episodes, 3 this week, then one a week until December 24.



Ahh... if that's the case then, cool! Thanks for clearing it up. 
Doesn't change me waiting until the 24th though. 

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Zardnaar (Nov 19, 2021)

Watched first episode last night didn't realize there were three. 

 Watching pt 2 now. Looks amazing and was fun enough. Wondering how it will compare to Witcher and Shadow and Bone.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 20, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Hoods don't put me off. They were an actual medieval thing (though not attached to what looks like sweatshirts). For me the issue is as it usually is for costuming; it all looks new, because it is. If there's one thing that the BBC does remarkably well in their costuming department, it's to make period clothing look like it's been lived in. I wish other production groups would give as much thought to wardrobe.



The buildings looked new too, and the town square was too level for a poor mountain settlement. And a certain peasant character had far too many different outfits.

But overall I enjoyed the first episode. I think I might be the only person here who hasn't read the books!

NB, Am I the only one who don't think using magic to heat bath water, whilst you are in the bath, is a wise idea?


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## Dioltach (Nov 20, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> NB, Am I the only one who don't think using magic to heat bath water, whilst you are in the bath, is a wise idea?



In the books that kind of thing happens all the time. Channelers use the One Power to dry their hair or clothes, or to heat up their tea, or to fetch items. It's very much just a tool. (Also, it's quite addictive, which is one reason why they use it so often.)


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## Morrus (Nov 20, 2021)

Everybody looks very…. modern. Clean cut, modern haircuts I’m finding that slightly jarring. There’s at least one guy who looks like he’s come straight from the office. He’s even wearing a modern looking shirt at one point.


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## Ryujin (Nov 20, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The buildings looked new too, and the town square was too level for a poor mountain settlement. And a certain peasant character had far too many different outfits.
> 
> But overall I enjoyed the first episode. I think I might be the only person here who hasn't read the books!
> 
> NB, Am I the only one who don't think using magic to heat bath water, whilst you are in the bath, is a wise idea?



I haven't read the books either. Sacrilege, I know.


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## Morrus (Nov 20, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> I haven't read the books either. Sacrilege, I know.



Me neither.


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## TheSword (Nov 20, 2021)

Probably a good thing!


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 20, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The buildings looked new too, and the town square was too level for a poor mountain settlement. And a certain peasant character had far too many different outfits.
> 
> But overall I enjoyed the first episode. I think I might be the only person here who hasn't read the books!
> 
> NB, Am I the only one who don't think using magic to heat bath water, whilst you are in the bath, is a wise idea?



They aren't a poor mountain settlement, but more along the line of a prosperous, but isolated, farming town from the 18th/19th century. The author described the world as being 18th century without gunpowder - clocks and printed books are common, for example (we'll probably see a lot of printed books in a few episodes when a certain character who is a book-lover is introduced).

For those who are trained, using the Power to heat bathwater is, well, a _very_ common usage of it.


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## Ryujin (Nov 20, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> They aren't a poor mountain settlement, but more along the line of a prosperous, but isolated, farming town from the 18th/19th century. The author described the world as being 18th century without gunpowder - clocks and printed books are common, for example (we'll probably see a lot of printed books in a few episodes when a certain character who is a book-lover is introduced).
> 
> For those who are trained, using the Power to heat bathwater is, well, a _very_ common usage of it.



I've had D&D characters use cantrips and rituals for the same sort of thing. What else is minor magic for, other than making your clothes sparkling clean while your fellow party members are still coated in the grime from the latest sewer?


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## Maxperson (Nov 20, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> What else is minor magic for, other than making your clothes sparkling clean while your fellow party members are still coated in the grime from the latest sewer?



Moving your grime onto them. Why sell yourself short and just clean up?


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## John R Davis (Nov 20, 2021)

Loads of the villagers were dirty. The settlement seemed 17th century US/Canada frontier type thing


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## Ryujin (Nov 20, 2021)

John R Davis said:


> Loads of the villagers were dirty. The settlement seemed 17th century US/Canada frontier type thing



I can't remember about the run-of-the-mill villagers, however, the main 4 cast members _coats_ were dirty, but their clothing underneath was dry cleaner fresh in the second episode.


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## Bladesinger (Nov 21, 2021)

As someone who has read the books, the changes to who the Dragon might be is very non-sensical, as well as what I 'Think' is going to be a change to the One Power itself. Moiraine thinks one of the girls can be the Dragon, but that makes ZERO sense in light of how the One Power is supposed to work and why men can't use it.


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## Maxperson (Nov 21, 2021)

Bladesinger said:


> As someone who has read the books, the changes to who the Dragon might be is very non-sensical, as well as what I 'Think' is going to be a change to the One Power itself. Moiraine thinks one of the girls can be the Dragon, but that makes ZERO sense in light of how the One Power is supposed to work and why men can't use it.



There's a spoilers thread here if you'd like to discuss things like this. 









						Wheel of Time Discussion - Spoilers(with book spoilers)
					

I did find the trollocks cant swim thing to be a bit eyeroll worthy.  That's from the book, and it makes sense in context.




					www.enworld.org


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## Bladesinger (Nov 21, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> There's a spoilers thread here if you'd like to discuss things like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks!


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## Warpiglet-7 (Nov 21, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> Finished all three episodes. As a book reader I don't know how I feel about the changes yet.
> 
> I do dislike the costumes. At one point you see dudes walking around with puffy North Face jackets and brimmed mining hats. It's got a "elves with hoodies" MTV Shannara thing going on right now.



It just has an anachronistic feel overall to me.  Some of the sets just don’t do it for me.

I don’t buy any of them as medieval peasants.  I would prefer more grit?  

but I am happy to have wizards and warriors ans monsters…I am watching with family so that is a plus.  I will ignore these things and try to get into the story.

but not enjoying the aesthetics much


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 21, 2021)

Warpiglet-7 said:


> It just has an anachronistic feel overall to me.  Some of the sets just don’t do it for me.
> 
> I don’t buy any of them as medieval peasants.  I would prefer more grit?
> 
> ...



They aren't medieval. This is post-apocalyptic. The equivalent time frame that they've gotten back to is basically 18th century without gunpowder (other than fireworks), with such things as clocks and printed books being common. Think of them more of a prosperous US frontier town than a medieval peasant village.


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## Ryujin (Nov 21, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> They aren't medieval. This is post-apocalyptic. The equivalent time frame that they've gotten back to is basically 18th century without gunpowder (other than fireworks), with such things as clocks and printed books being common. Think of them more of a prosperous US frontier town than a medieval peasant village.



In the first episode there's a landscape that I would swear looks like decaying and overgrown towers froma large, modern city.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 21, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> There's a spoilers thread here if you'd like to discuss things like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Does that thread just spoilers for the current show, or are there book spoilers as well?


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## Stalker0 (Nov 21, 2021)

So my take, it was…fine. Not amazing, but enjoyable. It’s not GOT, and I think the issue is they are sacrificing character development for action.

that said, apparantely they spent 10 MILLION dollars an episode. Now for that money…no, this is not good quality.


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## Morrus (Nov 21, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> They aren't medieval. This is post-apocalyptic.



Huh. I clearly wasn't paying attention during the opening exposition. Missed that fact completely!


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## Parmandur (Nov 21, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Huh. I clearly wasn't paying attention during the opening exposition. Missed that fact completely!



They may have skipped that bit: that's pretty deep dive stuff in the books: the Age of Legends that ended 3000 years before this story was preceded by a nuclear war in "our world." many thousands of years prior.


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## Morrus (Nov 21, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> They may have skipped that bit: that's pretty deep dive stuff in the books: the Age of Legends that ended 3000 years before this story was preceded by a nuclear war in "our world." many thousands of years prior.



Definitely don't recall anything about that.


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## Parmandur (Nov 21, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Definitely don't recall anything about that.



The books only hint at it here and there as Easter eggs, but Jordan liked those old "Appendix N" post-apocalyptic fantasy stories.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 21, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Huh. I clearly wasn't paying attention during the opening exposition. Missed that fact completely!



There was, as another poster noted, a shot of overgrown skyscrapers near the start of the first episode. There's also an animated short on Amazon X-Ray that mentions just how advanced the Time of Legends was (for those that don't know, if you click on X-Ray during an episode, each episode has like a 3 - 5 minute animated short associated with each episode: Episode 1 had the Breaking of the World, Episode 2 had the Fall of Manetheren, and Episode 3 has one on Warders).

Just how advanced the world was previously hasn't really been focused on yet, but expect that to change as we get more in future episodes.


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## Maxperson (Nov 22, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Does that thread just spoilers for the current show, or are there book spoilers as well?



There are probably a few book spoilers floating around, but primarily we are discussing the show.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 22, 2021)

Since we have a WoT spoiler thread, is it possible to re-label this one "no spoilers"?


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## eyeheartawk (Nov 22, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> They aren't medieval. This is post-apocalyptic. The equivalent time frame that they've gotten back to is basically 18th century without gunpowder (other than fireworks), with such things as clocks and printed books being common. Think of them more of a prosperous US frontier town than a medieval peasant village.



Technically, yes. But not really? It's post apocalyptic in the same way that Dying Earth is.


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## MarkB (Nov 22, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Everybody looks very…. modern. Clean cut, modern haircuts I’m finding that slightly jarring. There’s at least one guy who looks like he’s come straight from the office. He’s even wearing a modern looking shirt at one point.






John R Davis said:


> Loads of the villagers were dirty. The settlement seemed 17th century US/Canada frontier type thing


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## Mordhau (Nov 22, 2021)

The clothes are far too modern, post apocalypse or not, but it's modern fantasy, it's not really trying seriously to be historical, just to have a historical veneer.

It's no different than D&D characters wandering around with 20th century rucksacks, really.


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## Maxperson (Nov 22, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Since we have a WoT spoiler thread, is it possible to re-label this one "no spoilers"?



Done!


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## Ryujin (Nov 22, 2021)

Mordhau said:


> The clothes are far too modern, post apocalypse or not, but it's modern fantasy, it's not really trying seriously to be historical, just to have a historical veneer.
> 
> It's no different than D&D characters wandering around with 20th century rucksacks, really.



Depending upon how pervasive magic is in a setting you can have anything from a virtually bog standard Medieval society, to the fantasy equivalent of Star Trek. Magic = Replicator.


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## Mordhau (Nov 23, 2021)

Ryujin said:


> Depending upon how pervasive magic is in a setting you can have anything from a virtually bog standard Medieval society, to the fantasy equivalent of Star Trek. Magic = Replicator.



It's not really about the extent of magic.


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2021)

Tomorrow I will make myself watch the second episode. So far it's just generic YA fantasy to me, which I find pretty bland, and I couldn't get into even the first book, but I'm determined to try.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Tomorrow I will make myself watch the second episode. So far it's just generic YA fantasy to me, which I find pretty bland, and I couldn't get into even the first book, but I'm determined to try.



It's pretty much universally agreed that Episode 2 is better than 1, and 3 is even better than 2.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Tomorrow I will make myself watch the second episode. So far it's just generic YA fantasy to me, which I find pretty bland, and I couldn't get into even the first book, but I'm determined to try.



Can't speak to the show yet, but the overall story starts taking hairy left turns and goes highly abnormal places relatively fast, after a pretty bog standard set-up.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 23, 2021)

It was the guitar that looked decidedly modern. Whist similar instruments have been around for a long time, and might be around for 1000s of years in the future, that particular design with six stings dates it to the 1700s-2000s.

If I was designing for the show I would have invented some sort of fantasy pseudo-guitar.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Can't speak to the show yet, but the overall story starts taking hairy left turns and goes highly abnormal places relatively fast, after a pretty bog standard set-up.



Well, it better get a shift on, three episodes in and nothing much has happened.


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## Dioltach (Nov 23, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Well, it better get a shift on, three episodes in and nothing much has happened.



That's very much in the spirit of books. At least books 5-9...


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## Mordhau (Nov 23, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Well, it better get a shift on, three episodes in and nothing much has happened.



Bah.  Three episodes is nothing.  There's whole books where nothing happens!


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2021)

Mordhau said:


> Bah.  Three episodes is nothing.  There's whole books where nothing happens!



This is not encouraging me to watch it!


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## MarkB (Nov 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Tomorrow I will make myself watch the second episode. So far it's just generic YA fantasy to me, which I find pretty bland, and I couldn't get into even the first book, but I'm determined to try.



Yeah, getting through episodes 2 and 3 was a bit of a struggle. I'm having a hard time caring about the fate of any of these characters.


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Yeah, getting through episodes 2 and 3 was a bit of a struggle. I'm having a hard time caring about the fate of any of these characters.



I've resigned myself I will never read the books. There isn't that much time in the world. But I will give the show a good chance.


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## Jahydin (Nov 23, 2021)

Started to watch, but was getting really bad color distortion/fluctuations that was ruining it for me. Notably, odd blueish and green tints on skin. Might just be an application issue on my LG CX? Hope it's not the way it was filmed. Anyone streaming in HDR seeing anything similar?

Edit: Oh good, not just me; looks like it's a known issue according to the AVSforums. Still no clue if the off colors were intended or a mistake though...


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

Mordhau said:


> The clothes are far too modern, post apocalypse or not, but it's modern fantasy, it's not really trying seriously to be historical, just to have a historical veneer.




I mean, to be specific here - it _isn't our world_, isn't our turn of the Wheel. 

The Medieval period lasted a thousand years, and Europe is an entire continent - fashion varied across the lands and across time.  Why should this place that isn't any of the places we know, in a time that isn't our history, have fashions that match some specific place and time in our world?


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## GMMichael (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> . . .Binging a well-made show is like chugging fine cognac.



Well then.  I guess we're clear to binge the Wheel.

If anyone's got Netflix, Arcane (league of legends) is Muuuuuuuch more worth your time.  Despite being a computer-enhanced sort of cartoon.


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## TheSword (Nov 23, 2021)

So with Moiraine’s Magic turning the tide in the attack on Emonds Field in episode one, I’m struggling to think of other examples of Magic being used like that.

From memory she hurls some fire bolts, calls down lightning from the sky, slices someone in half with the power, telekinetically flings an axe in a trollocs face, blasts a few with concussive blasts then flings half the Winespring Inn at the remaining warband. It was Magic deployed for combat in a really physical and spectacular way.  You can see her in a defensive posture scanning the battlefield for her next target. One of the stand out parts of the episodes so far for me. Reminiscent of Gandalf and Sauruman’s duel in Fellowship of the Ring but more varied and substantial.

Im struggling to think of any other live action media which uses magic like this… essentially in the same way we see it in a typical D&D combat? I had thought that Wheel of Time might end up more D&D than the D&D movies for this reason… the cost and difficulty of quality special effects.

What are people’s thoughts?


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I've resigned myself I will never read the books. There isn't that much time in the world. But I will give the show a good chance.



I mean, the books are long, but not that long: I read the first 8 in a week.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

TheSword said:


> What are people’s thoughts?




I've watched the episode, but haven't read the books, so I don't know how well that scene reflected the source material.  I found it a very engaging scene, and it gave much context to, "one of the Aes Sedai can turn a battle," we were told a few scenes earlier.

My wife, who has read the books, and loved the story (if not all Jordan's stalled, over-lengthy irrelevant prose about dresses and such) absolutely _loved_ the battle scene, and how the magic was depicted.


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## Morrus (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, the books are long, but not that long: I read the first 8 in a week.



I have work to do!


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Morrus said:


> I have work to do!



Fair: I was 15 at the time, and it was Summer.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, the books are long, but not that long: I read the first 8 in a week.




The books average 826 pages each, and there are 14 of them.  For a total of 11,500+ pages.

By comparison, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, in total, all three books, has about 1137 pages.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> The books average 826 pages each, and there are 14 of them.  For a total of 11,500+ pages.
> 
> By comparison, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, in total, all three books, has about 1137 pages.



Yes, a couple weeks reading in spare time for all 14 books as opposed to a couple days for the LotR.

I suppose being a fast reader does warp my perceptions somewhat?


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> The books average 826 pages each, and there are 14 of them.  For a total of 11,500+ pages.
> 
> By comparison, the Lord of the Rings trilogy, in total, all three books, has about 1137 pages.



Out of curiosity, I went and tested my reading speed, which is apparently about 690 words per minute with comprehension. That means the Wheel of Time would take ~106 hours for me to read in total straight through, while the Lord of the Rings would take ~14 hours. So yeah, two weeks worth of downtime reading, versus a weekend.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Yes, a couple weeks reading in spare time for all 14 books as opposed to a couple days for the LotR.
> 
> I suppose being a fast reader does warp my perceptions somewhat?




Not necessarily fast, because you're quoting a duration that theoretically has things other than reading going on.  

If you read one page per minute (which is well above average, but not uncommon), and devote 9 hours a day, every day, to reading, you can get through the thing in about three weeks.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Out of curiosity, I went and tested my reading speed, which is apparently about 690 words per minute with comprehension.




So, that's _way_ above average, which is more like 250 wpm, or about 2 minutes per page.

You say "with comprehension" - I'm going to push back and note that there's a difference between comprehension (which is measured in the short term) and _retention_, which is what you remember a day or a week later.  My understanding is that, on average (not you, personally, but on average) reading speeds above about one page per minute negatively impact retention.  The human brain just doesn't shove material into longer-term storage that quickly.  

YMMV, of course.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 23, 2021)

TheSword said:


> I’m struggling to think of other examples of Magic being used like that.



That's because cheaty-maccheatyface has both wizard and druid spell lists.


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## TheSword (Nov 23, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> That's because cheaty-maccheatyface has both wizard and druid spell lists.



Ha ha yes. I did make a fairly robust Aes Sedai as either Community Druid or a Divine Soul Sorcerer.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, that's _way_ above average, which is more like 250 wpm, or about 2 minutes per page.
> 
> You say "with comprehension" - I'm going to push back and note that there's a difference between comprehension (which is measured in the short term) and _retention_, which is what you remember a day or a week later.  My understanding is that, on average (not you, personally, but on average) reading speeds above about one page per minute negatively impact retention.  The human brain just doesn't shove material into longer-term storage that quickly.
> 
> YMMV, of course.



Holy cow, at that speed I can understand why people might get frustrated with a longer book.

My retention rate is inversely proportional to the real world applicability of the information: I retain every bit of minutua about D&D or Lord of the Rings, but less about say, physics or biology.

Pushing the math a bit further, the Wheel of Time books, on average, would take me ~7.5 hours to read. So, given work, school, and children, it would take me a few days to finish a single book if I used my downtime with a book rather than here.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

GMMichael said:


> Well then.  I guess we're clear to binge the Wheel.




I guess that depends on what you call quality.  I saw a lot to like in the first episode.   Since you've given no material critique, there's not much to discuss with you beyond that.



Morrus said:


> Huh. I clearly wasn't paying attention during the opening exposition. Missed that fact completely!




That the Dragon came, and wrecked everything, is mentioned, but they very much didn't say how high the tech ladder they got before the fall.  In the closing exposition, she suggests it has been a long time - long enough that the events of the last turn of the Wheel went from history, to legend, to myth, to being outright forgotten.  From that, I get the impression that the turns of the Wheel are on the order of multiple millennia.

I don't think that, after thousands of years of recovery, it is really a post-apocalyptic setting.  That would be like saying our own modern-day Europe is post-apocalyptic, when the apocalypse was the Black Death.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> My retention rate is inversely proportional to the real world applicability of the information: I retain every bit of minutua about D&D or Lord of the Rings, but less about say, physics or biology.




Under current real-world conditions, I find it depressing you think biology has less real-world application than Lord of the Rings.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I guess that depends on what you call quality.  I saw a lot to like in the first episode.   Since you've given no material critique, there's not much to discuss with you beyond that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As one might expect from a multi-million world tale, it is complex.

It is post-apocalyptic from a few angles. One, the people of the world are aware of the pas having existed, and what is possible with technology and magic. This actually comes up in a relevant way, as reinventing something you know can be done is a very different matter than fresh invention.

In another, there have been two mini-apocalyapses since the Breaking, gigantic wars that destroyed and remade society across the continent.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Under current real-world conditions, I find it depressing you think biology has less real-world application than Lord of the Rings.



No, quite the opposite, I think biology has more real world application. But my mind retains Tolkien genealogies across decades, but science facts go in one eyeball and out the other (my 6 year old has a mind like a trap for animal and plant facts, at least). I have a trivial mind.


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## wicked cool (Nov 23, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> Watched first episode last night didn't realize there were three.
> 
> Watching pt 2 now. Looks amazing and was fun enough. Wondering how it will compare to Witcher and Shadow and Bone.



i think its a better show overall than shadow and bone but i would argue that some of the acting in shadow and bone is better (especially the lead bad guy)


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## Maxperson (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> No, quite the opposite, I think biology has more real world application. But my mind retains Tolkien genealogies across decades, but science facts go in one eyeball and out the other (my 6 year old has a mind like a trap for animal and plant facts, at least). I have a trivial mind.



Perhaps your retention is about how interested you are in the subject.  I retain fantasy books and games better than I do boring real world subjects as well. Real world subjects I have an interest in, though, those I retain just fine.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Perhaps your retention is about how interested you are in the subject.  I retain fantasy books and games better than I do boring real world subjects as well. Real world subjects I have an interest in, though, those I retain just fine.



That's probably accurate: hence my majoring in English literature.


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## wicked cool (Nov 23, 2021)

im wondering if i overrated the books. i never finished the series as there was a book or 2 that nothing really happened. I think these came out in the early 80's-later and the competition for fantasy wasnt that extensive (Thomas Covenant was another long series). Is it unfair to put into the GOT book category.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> im wondering if i overrated the books. i never finished the series as there was a book or 2 that nothing really happened. I think these came out in the early 80's-later and the competition for fantasy wasnt that extensive (Thomas Covenant was another long series). Is it unfair to put into the GOT book category.



The books were published from 1990 to 2013. Game of Thrones is a frequent comparison, but being long is about the main point of commonality.  Robert Jordan giving Game of Thrones an enthusiastic blurb is generally seen to have helped GoT get off the ground, and the authors were on friendly terms.


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## MarkB (Nov 23, 2021)

TheSword said:


> So with Moiraine’s Magic turning the tide in the attack on Emonds Field in episode one, I’m struggling to think of other examples of Magic being used like that.
> 
> From memory she hurls some fire bolts, calls down lightning from the sky, slices someone in half with the power, telekinetically flings an axe in a trollocs face, blasts a few with concussive blasts then flings half the Winespring Inn at the remaining warband. It was Magic deployed for combat in a really physical and spectacular way.  You can see her in a defensive posture scanning the battlefield for her next target. One of the stand out parts of the episodes so far for me. Reminiscent of Gandalf and Sauruman’s duel in Fellowship of the Ring but more varied and substantial.
> 
> ...



Not in live action offhand, but reminiscent of some of the battles in Avatar: The Last Airbender.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

MarkB said:


> Not in live action offhand, but reminiscent of some of the battles in Avatar: The Last Airbender.



Avatar: the Last Airbender borrows quite a bit from the Wheel of Time to start with.


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## Rune (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> My retention rate is inversely proportional to the real world applicability of the information: I retain every bit of minutua about D&D or Lord of the Rings, but less about say, physics or biology.



If you are implying that D&D and Lord of the Rings lack real world applicability, you must certainly have a far different definition of “real world applicability” than I!


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Rune said:


> If you are implying that D&D and Lord of the Rings lack real world applicability, you clearly have a far different definition of “real world applicability” than I.



I mean, ain't nobody ever paid me for the real estate THAC0 is taking up in my brain, and I only ever played two sessions of 2E!


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## Rune (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, ain't nobody ever paid me for the real estate THAC0 is taking up in my brain, and I only ever played two sessions of 2E!



As much as I’d like to let my joke lie, the half of me that wasn’t really joking insists on elaboration:

My experience as a DM made me a far better supervisor (and vise versa). And without alignments, how would I ever be able to describe which version of evil my bosses were?

As for Lord of the Rings, applicability was the author’s intent! If fiction is metaphor for Truth (I would argue there is always at least an element of that, though some works aim more directly at that than others do), Lord of the Rings tells its Truths in an especially effective and layered way that reveals ever more through repeated exposure. 

The impressive depth of context Tolkien provided was important to the work, but the applicability lies in the recurring themes shaped by that context. Of all works of literature, I personally find it the _most_ applicable to the real world. 

But, then again, I am a cynical Gen-Xer who _needs_ to be reminded from time to time that cynicism does not equal wisdom.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Rune said:


> As much as I’d like to let my joke lie, the half of me that wasn’t really joking insists on elaboration:
> 
> My experience as a DM made me a far better supervisor (and vise versa). And without alignments, how would I ever be able to describe which version of evil my bosses were?
> 
> ...



Alright, I will grant applicability in the Real world of Ideal Forms, but that doesn't pay my bills in the here and now. 

Though to be fair, my actual job largely consists of reading aot of material quickly and writing accurate and helpful responses, so the skill set of an Englodh major has served me.


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## Ryujin (Nov 23, 2021)

Rune said:


> But, then again, I am a cynical Gen-Xer who _needs_ to be reminded from time to time that cynicism does not equal wisdom.



Though, when properly applied, it can _lead_ one to wisdom


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## Dave Goff (Nov 23, 2021)

I enjoyed the episodes I've seen. I see it as something like an alternative universe version of the books I read and it's all works better.
Although, I did think the introduction of Thom Merrilin was kind of terrible, but it's okay. It's fun either way.

I agree with Rand's look not fitting with any of the rest of the cast. I get that they wanted to set him apart for "reasons" but it's a bit much.

And... I seem to be very much in the minority in my view of Witcher. I'm not familiar at all and I watched the first 2 episodes and wasn't really impressed. Is there something I'm missing?


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## Mercurius (Nov 23, 2021)

Rune said:


> *As for Lord of the Rings, applicability was the author’s intent!* If fiction is metaphor for Truth (I would argue there is always at least an element of that, though some works aim more directly at that than others do), Lord of the Rings tells its Truths in an especially effective and layered way that reveals ever more through repeated exposure.
> 
> The impressive depth of context Tolkien provided was important to the work, but the applicability lies in the recurring themes shaped by that context. Of all works of literature, I personally find it the _most_ applicable to the real world.
> 
> But, then again, I am a cynical Gen-Xer who _needs_ to be reminded from time to time that cynicism does not equal wisdom.




Just a little nit-pick. I agree with the gist of what you're saying here (and like your bit about the cynicism of Gen-X), but I don't think even applicability was Tolkien's intent, he just somewhat famously disliked allegory and was resistant to allegorical interpretations of his work.

I think his stance was more, "If you want to apply it to some kind of meaning, great, but I'm just trying to write a good story." Or rather, he was deeply immersed in bringing Middle-earth to life, and his books were a way of both exploring Middle-earth and sharing what he "discovered." Obviously his life--and perhaps especially his experiences of the two world wars, and the overall impact of industrialization in England--were deeply impactful. But he didn't like the crudeness of saying, "the One Ring is nuclear power" or "Sauron = Hitler" or "Mordor = the industrialized Midlands."

One of the great struggles of his life was his inability to publish what would later become the Silmarillion. When his publishers asked for a sequel to the Hobbit, he showed them bits of the Silmarillion and they said, "Uh, very interesting, but can you give us a story about hobbits and not a bible on the elves?" Thus LotR. Even up to the point of its publication in 1954-55, he tried to fold the Silmarillion in as a package deal, but Allen & Unwin were hesitant, and he even talked with a different publisher, but they wanted to heavily edit LotR, so he went back to Allen & Unwin.

But my point is that what he cared about, more than anything, was the Silmarillion - and the entire creation of Middle-earth. I imagine that if he were a more prolific writer, and/or he lived a lot longer, we would have seen novels written about about earlier periods in Middle-earth's history, fleshing out segments of the Silmarillion. To him it was a living, breathing secondary world - an imaginary world that was true in its own way. So whether we're talking about allegory or even deeper meanings that can be read in the text and applied to stuff in the real world, Tolkien's focus was on the world itself.

That said, he did discuss some of the meanings he saw in his creation, but it was more in an "after the fact" sort of way. Meaning, he wasn't trying to make a point in the guise of a fiction story, even in an open-ended way (applicability). He was approaching Middle-earth as a living reality, and expressing what he discovered in his writings. In a way, any deeper meanings he saw in the text were seen after the fact - he would write and create, and then reflect upon what he came up with.


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## payn (Nov 23, 2021)

Dave Goff said:


> And... I seem to be very much in the minority in my view of Witcher. I'm not familiar at all and I watched the first 2 episodes and wasn't really impressed. Is there something I'm missing?



Nope.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> Just a little nit-pick. I agree with the gist of what you're saying here (and like your bit about the cynicism of Gen-X), but I don't think even applicability was Tolkien's intent, he just somewhat famously disliked allegory and was resistant to allegorical interpretations of his work.
> 
> I think his stance was more, "If you want to apply it to some kind of meaning, great, but I'm just trying to write a good story." Or rather, he was deeply immersed in bringing Middle-earth to life, and his books were a way of both exploring Middle-earth and sharing what he "discovered." Obviously his life--and perhaps especially his experiences of the two world wars, and the overall impact of industrialization in England--were deeply impactful. But he didn't like the crudeness of saying, "the One Ring is nuclear power" or "Sauron = Hitler" or "Mordor = the industrialized Midlands."
> 
> ...



Tolkien's writing was meant to be a sub-creation tying into something Real, on a higher plane. Basically, he wanted to make his readers Platonists, and may have succeeded beyond his imagining.


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## Stalker0 (Nov 23, 2021)

Dave Goff said:


> And... I seem to be very much in the minority in my view of Witcher. I'm not familiar at all and I watched the first 2 episodes and wasn't really impressed. Is there something I'm missing?



the other 6 episodes


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## Mercurius (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Tolkien's writing was meant to be a sub-creation tying into something Real, on a higher plane. Basically, he wanted to make his readers Platonists, and may have succeeded beyond his imagining.



Well again, I don't see the same degree of intent ("meant to be") as you, at least if we take his words at face value.

Sure, he was in the general Platonist stream. His writing is deeply Romantic (big R), and he generally wasn't impressed with the modern world, especially industrialization. But I don't think he as trying to convert people. There's no heavy-handed proselytizing, like CS Lewis or many contemporary writers and film-makers who foist this or that agenda upon us. There's more of a sharing of his own experience of the numinous.

I think this is exemplified in the whole dynamic of light: the pure, archetypal light of the Two Trees that were poisoned by Ungoliant, the last flowers of which became the Sun and Moon, and the light captured in the Silmarils through the high craftsmanship of Feanor. And contrasted with the false light of the One Ring, and the infernal glow of the fires of Mordor.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> Well again, I don't see the same degree of intent ("meant to be") as you, at least if we take his words at face value.
> 
> Sure, he was in the general Platonist stream. His writing is deeply Romantic (big R), and he generally wasn't impressed with the modern world, especially industrialization. But I don't think he as trying to convert people. There's no heavy-handed proselytizing, like CS Lewis or many contemporary writers and film-makers who foist this or that agenda upon us. There's more of a sharing of his own experience of the numinous.
> 
> I think this is exemplified in the whole dynamic of light: the pure, archetypal light of the Two Trees that were poisoned by Ungoliant, the last flowers of which became the Sun and Moon, and the light captured in the Silmarils through the high craftsmanship of Feanor. And contrasted with the false light of the One Ring, and the infernal glow of the fires of Mordor.



There is armor difference between offering to share an experience and prostylyzing an ideology, definitely. I think the Lord of theNrings ended up being the single most successful attempt in the 20th century of a person trying to share their interior life experience with others through art.


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## Mordhau (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I mean, to be specific here - it _isn't our world_, isn't our turn of the Wheel.
> 
> The Medieval period lasted a thousand years, and Europe is an entire continent - fashion varied across the lands and across time.  Why should this place that isn't any of the places we know, in a time that isn't our history, have fashions that match some specific place and time in our world?



Costume in Wheel of Time.

Jordan was famously a writer who was meticulously, famously, often tediously very detailed about what everyone was wearing.

Although I'm not hugely bothered by faithfulness to the books - my main impression is that a lot of the clothing in the show, by it's design, doesn't take into account a lack of sewing machines - and is thus, as I said, 'too modern'.

That, and the fact that clothing that too closely resembles current fashions, doesn't really help the work of worlbuilding which the show seems otherwise interested in (and which is the only way it's going to work).


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## Mercurius (Nov 23, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> There is armor difference between offering to share an experience and prostylyzing an ideology, definitely. I think the Lord of theNrings ended up being the single most successful attempt in the 20th century of a person trying to share their interior life experience with others through art.



That's an interesting way to put it, and you may be right. We do know that Tolkien was interested in creating a cohesive mythology for Britain, that embodies its archetypal spirit. While he wasn't trying to offer it as actual history, I do find it intriguing when he relates it to our world - he has said that we are either at the end of the Sixth Age or the beginning of the Seventh (if he were alive today, I would think he'd consider us definitely in the Seventh Age).


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## Mercurius (Nov 23, 2021)

Mordhau said:


> Costume in Wheel of Time.
> 
> Jordan was famously a writer who was meticulously, famously, often tediously very detailed about what everyone was wearing.
> 
> ...



I kind of share this, although it isn't to a point that my enjoyment of the series is lessened. I also felt that the clothing was all too new and clean looking. And for some reason, I found Rand's fuzzy sweater distracting, even if that was actually realistic.


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## payn (Nov 23, 2021)

The too modern clothes thing I dont get. Its an entirely different world where people can do magic. I remember the only episode ive seen of Big Bang theory had the Sheldon character mad about the renaissance festival having inappropriate for the era clothing and corn dogs. The other characters convinced him to dress as Spock and pretend its an alternate world to explore. He was able to enjoy it then. I think folks could enjoy thing smore if they dont expect things to be exact copies of things they are not exact copies of.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> That's an interesting way to put it, and you may be right. We do know that Tolkien was interested in creating a cohesive mythology for Britain, that embodies its archetypal spirit. While he wasn't trying to offer it as actual history, I do find it intriguing when he relates it to our world - he has said that we are either at the end of the Sixth Age or the beginning of the Seventh (if he were alive today, I would think he'd consider us definitely in the Seventh Age).



To be fair, that was the dominant style in Fantasy at the time, fairly universal even.


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## Umbran (Nov 23, 2021)

Mordhau said:


> Costume in Wheel of Time.
> 
> Jordan was famously a writer who was meticulously, famously, often tediously very detailed about what everyone was wearing.
> 
> ...




One - the vast and overwhelming majority of viewers won't know the difference between a skilled hand-sewn work from a sewing machine work at more than 5 feet away.  Indeed, the Dunning-Kreuger Effect suggest to us that most of the duffers who claim this is important probably won't know the difference either.  

Two - suggesting that adherence to the most famously _tedious_ element of his work as essential to the worldbuilding seems... questionable.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> One - the vast and overwhelming majority of viewers won't know the difference between a skilled hand-sewn work from a sewing machine work at more than 5 feet away. Indeed, the Dunning-Kreuger Effect suggest to us that most of the duffers who claim this is important probably won't know the difference either.
> 
> Two - suggesting that adherence to the most famously _tedious_ element of his work as essential to the worldbuilding seems... questionable.



But... but... I was _so_ looking forward to the episode where we do nothing but spend an hour with Elayne picking out a dress from her huge walk-in closet, with long, lingering shots on the fabric and embroidery as she describes everything in minute detail! It's how Jordan wrote it, and how he would have wanted it!

/s


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## Mordhau (Nov 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> One - the vast and overwhelming majority of viewers won't know the difference between a skilled hand-sewn work from a sewing machine work at more than 5 feet away.  Indeed, the Dunning-Kreuger Effect suggest to us that most of the duffers who claim this is important probably won't know the difference either.
> 
> Two - suggesting that adherence to the most famously _tedious_ element of his work as essential to the worldbuilding seems... questionable.



This is what you intitially responded to.  (I didn't say it was essential to the worldbuilding - I said it "didn't help" the worldbuilding - but the series is already better than we had any real right to expect so...)


Mordhau said:


> The clothes are far too modern, post apocalypse or not, but it's modern fantasy, it's not really trying seriously to be historical, just to have a historical veneer.
> 
> It's no different than D&D characters wandering around with 20th century rucksacks, really.



You seem to be arguing that I should hold the position that I started with.  If you agree with my initial position what are you arguing with?

Most of the reviews I've have read have commented on the clothing - .  Other people already commented on the clothing in this thread.   People _are_ noticing.  So please drop the implication that I'm some kind of incredibly anal nerd for noticing as well - it's distateful.


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## Parmandur (Nov 23, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> But... but... I was _so_ looking forward to the episode where we do nothing but spend an hour with Elayne picking out a dress from her huge walk-in closet, with long, lingering shots on the fabric and embroidery as she describes everything in minute detail! It's how Jordan wrote it, and how he would have wanted it!
> 
> /s



I unironically would be fine with that.

I recall reading the Princess Bride novel for the first time, and getting to the short chapter that briefly summarized the "longest chapter" in the "original" being exactly that...and immediately thinking of Robert Jordan.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 24, 2021)

By the way, for those who are wondering when the wider world is going to open up, I'm going to say almost certainly next episode. Given the group who showed up in the last few moments of Episode 3, I'm thinking we're going to get some serious discussions on the magic system of the world, Aes Sedai politics, and some of the politics of the world at large as we go through Episode 4.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 24, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Ha ha yes. I did make a fairly robust Aes Sedai as either Community Druid or a Divine Soul Sorcerer.



If you want other examples of gratuitous magic use in live action, this comes to mind:


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 24, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> But... but... I was _so_ looking forward to the episode where we do nothing but spend an hour with Elayne picking out a dress from her huge walk-in closet, with long, lingering shots on the fabric and embroidery as she describes everything in minute detail! It's how Jordan wrote it, and how he would have wanted it!
> 
> /s



Lando Calrissian TV show, coming to Disney+.


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## Mordhau (Nov 24, 2021)

Demetrios1453 said:


> By the way, for those who are wondering when the wider world is going to open up, I'm going to say almost certainly next episode. Given the group who showed up in the last few moments of Episode 3, I'm thinking we're going to get some serious discussions on the magic system of the world, Aes Sedai politics, and some of the politics of the world at large as we go through Episode 4.



I think the test of a wider world will be how they present a city.


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## TheSword (Nov 24, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> If you want other examples of gratuitous magic use in live action, this comes to mind:



Yes, I agree the Star Wars films have a lot of telekinesis, a little bit of lightning, some divination and a few suggestions.

It’s the closed live action media I’ve seen to that kind of magic before WOT came along. Though it’s restricted to just a very small handful of people.


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## Paul Farquhar (Nov 24, 2021)

TheSword said:


> Yes, I agree the Star Wars films have a lot of telekinesis, a little bit of lightning, some divination and a few suggestions.
> 
> It’s the closed live action media I’ve seen to that kind of magic before WOT came along. Though it’s restricted to just a very small handful of people.



I expect there won't be much more in WoT. The probably spent their magic budget on the first episode.


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## TheSword (Nov 24, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I expect there won't be much more in WoT. The probably spent their magic budget on the first episode.



I would be very surprised if this is the case. But it’s spoiler free so I won’t go into it here.


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## Parmandur (Nov 24, 2021)

Mordhau said:


> I think the test of a wider world will be how they present a city.



Very soon, probably.


Paul Farquhar said:


> I expect there won't be much more in WoT. The probably spent their magic budget on the first episode.



Prepare to be surprised...


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 24, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I expect there won't be much more in WoT. The probably spent their magic budget on the first episode.



Actually, a lot of the magic use from the trailers will be coming from the upcoming episode 4, given that we are just meeting the characters we saw wielding it. And there will almost certainly be a lot in the finale.


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## Demetrios1453 (Nov 24, 2021)

Even more so, here is the promo for Episode 4. _Lots_ of channelling going on:


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## Stalker0 (Dec 14, 2021)

6 episodes in, again a pretty decent ride so far. But ultimately its just....ok. For the $10 million/episode pricetag I keep hearing thrown around, I feel like the studio is not getting their bang for the buck by any margin.

But for me just enjoying my streaming service, its been fine.


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## MarkB (Dec 14, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> 6 episodes in, again a pretty decent ride so far. But ultimately its just....ok. For the $10 million/episode pricetag I keep hearing thrown around, I feel like the studio is not getting their bang for the buck by any margin.
> 
> But for me just enjoying my streaming service, its been fine.



I enjoyed the last episode more than the preceding ones, but yeah, it's still not really a priority for me to catch up with.


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## Zardnaar (Dec 17, 2021)

Great episode tonight.


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## Dave Goff (Dec 17, 2021)

I'm enjoying the show. As I've mentioned in various places, I see it as an alternative world, or different spin of the wheel, from the books I've read- there are similarities and the story has many common elements, but it's a different world.

That said, I do feel like a lot of the things that I loved in the books have been left out. I don't mean huge scenes, rather small things like how the Fal Darans should have called out to Lan with his full name and title. I really wanted to hear Taishar Malkier because it sets up reason for them to call the Two Rivers folks Taishar Manatheran.

I mean, huge scenes _have_ been left out but I understand that, given that they have to wrap up a huge book in 8 episodes. I just wish they were focusing on the flavor bits rather than the soap opera-ish drama. I guess it must have been the parts the focus groups liked. LOL.
(edited to fix minor typos)


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