# [GO:V] A Game of Opposites: Villains OOC (Heroes Stay out!)



## Timothy (Jan 23, 2003)

Ahhh, welcome, my dark minions, we have matters to discuss, yes we have....

I would like everyone to post their favorite monster, majority will decide or a diplomatic option if possible.

My first choice would be mind Flayers in an underdark location.
You'll have some slaves and hulks as companions and will have some mindflayer eggs (? how ARE mind flayers born/created?) to protect.

If any of you have different oppinions, let's hear them!


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## Jemal (Jan 23, 2003)

Is this a new game or are you just asking for players you allready have in something?

Also if this and that heroes game are looking for new players I gotta decide which one to join.


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## arwel (Jan 23, 2003)

Mind flayers sound fun to me. I like the idea of protecting the eggs from the greedy heroes who are out to rob us and mercilessly slay our unborn


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 23, 2003)

Mindflayers procreate by cool means. They spawn little tadpoles (kikkervisjes dus in het nederlands), they nurish these and later they implant them in a host body, prererably human or drow or something. Then the tadpole takes over the hosts body and mind and slowly transforms the body into that of a mindflayer.

This rarely happens though since it's thought to be the greatest of honors... from cattle to illithid, the ultimate priviledge and ascension.

Illithid society is based on this principle:

2 thousand illithid in a large city with about 40,000 slaves and 20,000 thralls. These are the bulk of the city population.

then there are about three councils which exist of about 10-20 Illithid, one consists of the devellopers and the loremasters that keep track of literature and magic and psionics, one that gouverns daily life and organises the city and trade, and one that organises the army and defense and offense (this includes raids for new slaves and thralls on other places so they keep the slave and thrall population at a steady level.)

These three councils are ruled by a council of about 5-8 old and wise Illithid who effectively rule the city and make plans for it. They rule the three other councils and they report to them and to them alone.

Above all of this is the Elder Brain, the Elder Brain is as it says a HUGE brain which is made up of the essense of dead mindflayers. Once a mindflayer dies it's brain mass it added to the Elder Brain who then gains it's knowledge and powers. Needless to say Elder brain are VERY powerfull and their power almost of the scale. Just 1 Elder Brain exists per city, they are it's king, it's library, it's oracle, it's gateway to Ilsensine the god of the Illithid.


--


This is about how it works, Illithid are divided in casts, a Illithid joins a cast, the researchers and keepers, or the merchants and diplomatics or the war and army cast. Illithid without cast are not exepted and are treated as outcasts. These exept their fate and carry no grudge against their kin in the cities, they weren't good enough or evil enough or orderly enough, they failed their kin and they exept their fate (99% of the time). They wander the planes and the underdark to do evil and do something great to regain their status in a city and to be allowed back into a cast and to fit in with their race again. Every Illithid believes that to be Illithid is to be the highest form of life and all non illithid are mere cattle and should be kept in farms for food and to do their work for them so they can live in luxury and relaxation.

So to regain a status and a place in a cast in a Illithid city is to be accepted back into perfect soceity and to be accepted back amongst the most superior species ever. So 99,999999% of the exiled Illithid try to prove themselves to be accepted back.




Hop that was a bit of help on the mindflayer subject. (Yes they are my favorite species along with Formians and Slaadi  My top 3: 1)Formians 2)Mindflayers 3)Slaadi 


[Edit: The tadpoles are kept in the pool in which the Elder Brain lives, a huge pool of cerebral fluid in which the tadpoles swim and live, they are nurished by the fluid and the Elder Brain. Elder Brains are at least huge or Gargantuan Size and something like CR 30 orso... (not counting the 2000 illithid and 60000 thrall army that would guard it with their lives). They carry the wisdom power and experience of about a few hundreds of even a few thousand Illithid with them so they are with no doubt up there with the most intelligent and most wise creatures that exist on any plane, they are up there with the archdevils and demon princes. So going about killing those tadpoles would even be out of Elminsters league, even if he and his whole Mystra cast would assault a minflayer city they would die so damned fast...
Btw Elder Brain can communicate telepathically with any creature within 500 miles... So they will most likely know you are comming if their intellect and incredible and unimaginable hypercognition and precognition powers told them anyway. Out of almost everyones league  /Edit]


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 23, 2003)

[As you see I'm here to help not to make you fall or to prove you wrong or anything. Knowledge is to be shared ans wisdom to be taught.]


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## Timothy (Jan 23, 2003)

Ah great TFO, thx for the info.

So IF we're going for mindflayers, this'll be the mission for you guys.

You've been sent by the council of war to create a small colony on the boarders of a great drow city. This city has recently expanded a great deal, and the council decided that they should have an organized outpost in this area. You have been given 10 tadpoles to increase your number if need be. You have thralls of twice your number, and slaves thrice your number. The slaves mostly consist of Umber Hulks, but you have a couple of goblinoids that you captured as well. You have been given some funds to get whatever you need from a nearby market place run by Svirneblinn (sp?). The drow in this region are hostile toward you, but the marketplace is safe for both.
So, you are required to get an outpost going in one of the caves near the drow city and defend it from attacks that may come from you.

(Again, if anybody has another idea, plz say so, and we can discuss that)


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## perivas (Jan 23, 2003)

Considering the variety of possible characters posted here, I have no problems with it.  I think I'll go with a goblin shaman, if that's okay with everyone.  I like surprises for the enemy.

Aside:  BTW, should we get this thread moved to the "Talking the Talk" group.  And, Jemal, now that you've posted here...I guess you must become a vile illithid!


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## Timothy (Jan 23, 2003)

hmm, you wanna play some of the slaves? I don't think that is possible, because you'll be severly limited in your movements. But if you don't mind roleplaying obediance againt the illithid, you'll be a special slave that has reaised to a better status within the community.

And PKitty will move the thread.


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 23, 2003)

I was debating asking to play a blue.
Then again, I don't know psionics too well to begin with.


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## Timothy (Jan 23, 2003)

Since no almost nothing about psionics and don't own the psionics handbook, psionics will just be spells, as described in the MM at the mind flayer entry.

Also, does anyone know the ECL for Mindflayers? (although It'll probarly not be precise enough to use it)


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 23, 2003)

So, we can't take psionic classes?
That might change a lot of people's minds about what race to play.

Someone duggested evil outsiders, I'm all for that, but the ECLs are a bit steep.


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## perivas (Jan 23, 2003)

> *hmm, you wanna play some of the slaves? I don't think that is possible, because you'll be severly limited in your movements. But if you don't mind roleplaying obediance againt the illithid, you'll be a special slave that has reaised to a better status within the community.*




Well, my concept was an overcautious and somewhat paranoid goblin shaman, who along the way eliminated all potential challengers and took over his goblin tribe.  However, when the tribe ran into the illithids, he estimated (due in part to his overcautious nature and in part to his ongoing campaign to eliminate all potential challengers...however remote...from the ranks of his tribe) that they would lose badly.  Therefore, he pledged his allegiance to the illithids.  But, being the goblins that they are...they have nearly no status within this community.  Of course, I entirely understand if you want everyone to play illithids...as you may end up with everyone making a request to play something else and ending with too diverse a group, in which we probably should not be playing illithids.  But for now, I'm all for illithids and merely suggest paying something else for myself, but if you want everyone as an illithid, I wholeheartedly support you and gladly join the ranks.



> *Also, does anyone know the ECL for Mindflayers? (although It'll probarly not be precise enough to use it) *




I'm fairly sure that the ECL for mindflayers is plus eight (+8)!  At ECL +8, it pretty much precludes playing spellcasters of any sort.


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## Timothy (Jan 23, 2003)

ECL +8? you sure, they are CR 8, and for example a minoyaur (CR 4) is allready ECL +8, but this varies per race.


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## arwel (Jan 23, 2003)

I don't think getting access to psionics is that big deal if we're playing mind flayers, most of their abilities are at will and the odd power point and psionic feat from our class levels won't really make too much of a difference.

I guess playing evil outsiders will give us a bit more choice, but my vote is with the tentacled ones. Still, I don't really mind what we end up playing.

Edit: I guess I didn't make it that clear above. I can definatley live without psionics. With such a high ECL our caster levels will probably be too low to make it worth while.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 23, 2003)

Mindflayers are ECL 8 or 12... can't remember. Check MM and errata. +8 ECL is ok IMHO. Never had any probs with that.


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## Timothy (Jan 23, 2003)

Evil outsiders can be done as well, I don't mind.

But I don't know anything off Psionics, so no Psionic classes.


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## Hygric (Jan 24, 2003)

Greeetings oh mighty and infallible over-brain.

Illithid sounds good to me! 

Racecalc works them out to be ecl 8, so we would have what, about 2 levels to play with?

Illithid / monk?


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 24, 2003)

Omg illithid monk... the cliche... 

If no Telepath is allowed, go sorcerer. That's the other preferred class.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

I'd prefer evil outsider


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 24, 2003)

Now that's a surprise


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## Hygric (Jan 24, 2003)

Anyone have any idea how illithids name themselves?  Some examples maybe to kick start the imagination?

Having thought about it a bit more, how about an Illithid / ranger, specialised in fighting (and less violent resolutions if need be) Drow.  The council of war decided that his (her, it's, his/her???) talents would be useful for the successful completion of the mission.

And just to set the mood, a little bit of a poem I just wrote (honest, it's a completely origional work):

"Into the cavern of death strode the six heroes,
Mind blasts ahead of them, mind blasts to the left of them and mind blasts to the right of them."


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

Well, at least respect me for not going the intelligent undead route, will ya?


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## Timothy (Jan 24, 2003)

Hygric said:
			
		

> *
> "Into the cavern of death strode the six heroes,
> Mind blasts ahead of them, mind blasts to the left of them and mind blasts to the right of them." *




Just one thing to say:

Muhahahaha (evil laugh)

And janos, why not make a fiendish mind flayer?

and ECL 8 leaves, say 5 levels for classes, the PC's will begin at lvl 16 then.

I will allow one of you to make a cave system, including the following features:

1 lake
2-6 Greater rooms
1-7 Smaller rooms
1-4 entrances/exits to each room, one greater room having 6 (the central room) and some small rooms with only one entrance.
Hallways have to be at least 5 foot wide, except on two places. There have to be at least 4 differnt routes to the central room.
The cavern is natural, and the hallways connecting the rooms have to differ in length, but not be too long.

you can all discuss the layout and special features. but I'll have the fnal word ina llowing the cave.

Characters: lvl 13, with half of the XP needed for lvl 14, preferably illithid (althoug one goblin at the moment, and a possible outsider/fiendish mind flayer) Every Mind Flayer can create 2 thralls of whose combined levels are not greater than 12, and all thrall have to be lvl 3 atleast. All knid of monsters can be chosen as thralls. Money: The mind flayers have as the DMG +10000, others have money as the DMG, thralls have halve the money than in the DMG.
Traps will cost money and XP to create. Guidelines in the DMG and Traps and treachery (1 +2).

Any questions, comments?
With the money you will also need to buy materials for traps.


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## arwel (Jan 24, 2003)

Do we take the typical abilities in the MM or do we get a point buy?


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

Squidheads come with 5 feats... we allowed to swap those out for better suited ones?


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

Well, being villain does not automatically mean it has to be a *monster*. Mind Flayers just suck. Oh, sure, they get all those 'great' abilities, but nothing with a will save above DC 18, which, at level 15 even the barbarian has a good chance of making...

So I'd rather be half fiend or something...at least something with a lot of class levels.

BTW, level 16 = 8th level spells = Mind Blank = Bye Bye Flayer Abilities.


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## Timothy (Jan 24, 2003)

28 Point buy, I'll look at the feats when I get home (with the MM)

I agree with Janos that mind flayer bilities can be easily overcome at lvl 16 PC's but it;s your call what to be.

If I look into TFO's list of favorite monsters, I can see Slaadi working out very well too. Although I need to check the MM.

But as I said, it's your call. Whatever the majority decides, goes.

And being Mindflayers will pay off in Thralls and slaves, you can take thralls that supplement your abilities. Or Janos could have a char that focusses on other things.

I Think that too non mindflayers is the max though.


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

Ok, just so people know what Flayers bonuses are:
+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2Con, +8 Int, +6 Wis +6 Cha.
+8d8 HD, +6 BAB, +2 Fort, +2 Ref +6 Will, +3 natural armor
-3 ranks/skill, +6 bluff, +11 Concentration, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, +4 knowledge (any two).

Feats they come with are Alertness, Combat Casting, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse (tentacle), some of which I might wanna swap.

I'm assuming just Core + Splat books for creation? Of I can whip out a more Vile book?


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 24, 2003)

At level 16 I can whip up a DC 25 Mindblast with no prob... But mindblank kills psions anyway so that's a general given fact =]

Edit: I'll post Mindflayer names later tonight


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## perivas (Jan 24, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *
> Characters: lvl 13, with half of the XP needed for lvl 14, preferably illithid (althoug one goblin at the moment, and a possible outsider/fiendish mind flayer) Every Mind Flayer can create 2 thralls of whose combined levels are not greater than 12, and all thrall have to be lvl 3 atleast. All knid of monsters can be chosen as thralls. Money: The mind flayers have as the DMG +10000, others have money as the DMG, thralls have halve the money than in the DMG.
> Traps will cost money and XP to create. Guidelines in the DMG and Traps and treachery (1 +2).
> *




As I have already stated in a prior post, I think that having more levels makes the villains weaker than the PCs.  I would prefer just 3 levels for mindflayers at most.  I don't think that two levels for us is worth worrying about 7th level spells vs. 6th level spells.  Just look what they'll be getting at 7th...resurrection or quickened fireballs!  Plus I agree with the prior point about mindflayer abilities' DC's being poor.  The higher level we are, the more worthless our mindflayer abilities.  At 13th, a single class will save will be +4 or +8 without ability score bonuses.  Our mindblast will not mean anything.  I would prefer if we have more ability to substitute or customize the base abilities of the mindflayers, rather than getting more levels to use.

By the way, we already qualify for some prestige classes!  Just keep that in mind when building your mindflayer to inflict maximum pain!


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 24, 2003)

D00d, u go whip up some DC 25 MindBlasts and abuse that plane shift and charm. U'll have them fight eachother and stunned.

Levitate out of the way of the fighters that don't fly and if they start flying it took them time to cast the spells. Make sure u attack them and they don't attack you. If you surprise them and hit them with multiple charms and mindblasts, that get's very ugly very fast. IF you do it right. (not counting lucky unlukcy)

have lots of minions or some very tough ones like Formorian Giants or something and lay the smack on them.

I'll go look up the names in a moment after dinner. (They ar eon my laptop)


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

Can you mindblast through a wall of force? (or similar invisible barrier?)


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

TFO, make 4 Illithids with 8 class levels, I make 1 16th level wiz, then let Tim DM our fight and let's see who wins ok? (I'm playing Tourach , by the way) 

MINDFLAYERS ARE PATHETIC (and I've been drinking a bit, and generally annoyed by certain things, if that's an excuse)

Now, for a bit more reasonable reply:

Mind Blast, countered by Mind Blank, available for entire party

Plane Shift, 5d% miles off target. Countered by itself

Levitate, outshined by Fly.

Charm Monster, also countered by Mind Blank.

If you can cast any spells, the caster level is really low, so if an Invisble Nondetectioned PC walks in, you have a big problem.

Add in Spiked Chain, Spring Attack and Sneak Attack.

The above challenge is open to everyone except Sollir, because I know he could kill a 20th level Wizard with a 1st level commoner ... somehow.


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

You are so on. You cannot dispel my spells unless you make a dispel check DC 58.

You cannot detect me unless you make a level check vs lvl 52.

I cast a 6 times empowered Horrid Wilting. Twice, because of haste. (25d8 * 4 + 25d8 * 4) You die. No save, no SR. @ 16th level.

Nice try, any other takers?

Maybe you should take a look at the link, because he is about as deadly as it gets @ 16th level...

I am willing to compromise: Illithids get a style bonus, but are unable to fight high level mages.

[edit]Who am I kidding? That wasn't a nice try, that was just thinking I am stupid enough not to take Dispel Magic in consideration. Trust me, I've considered a *lot* of things while creating that character...[/edit]


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

Arguing is pointless, removed


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

Feat from FRCS: tenacious magic, just trust me when I say something.

---

Why you can not kill me:

I have 180 feat blindsight, so that Hide DC 50 is soooooooooo impressive...NOT

Plane Shift is off by 5d% miles, rtfm

Do I still need to remind you that you can NOT see me.

You need to close in to get 4 attacks, and have studied me for 3 rounds to get those death attacks, while you can not see me. BTW, I'm flying. So, *how* were you gonna reach me? AND I have Medium Fortification, so that is 75% likely to negate you death attacks.

Guess I'll use a DC 52 Finger of Death on you this time...

Are you gonna accept that you can NOT win?


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

I'm out. I didn't sign up for power-gamers to abuse me.
Have fun.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

woo that's not what I meant...

That character was insanely munched, and the only reason I used it was to show that illithids are chanceless against high level mages. "If 1 munched mage can take you down, what do you think a party can do?", that was the spirit of my post...not to bully you away or something...

I was trying to prove a point (and I guess I succeeded )...I was illustrating what pervias said: illithids are at a disadvantage when the heroes a very high level...

I do not want to win 'at all costs', but a game in which I do not feel I have a chance of winning is not really fun for me...

damn, I feel like such a jerk now...


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

Damn, now I feel like a jerk.

Ok, lets forget the whole thing and move on with the game.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)




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## Wippit Guud (Jan 24, 2003)

Ok, back on track, so far people have suggested Illithids and Outsiders. Any other options? Undead maybe? (and hope for no clerics).

If we each pick an evil outsider and add classes to a level, that allows the same amount of variety we'll meet in the PC's...

And should the evil side be playing ECLs or CRs? CR sounds better, it's a one-time thing, and ECLs weren't created with that in mind.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 24, 2003)

technically, turning can be countered by a second level wizard spell for 10 minutes / lvl...but I guess that's not what you wanted to hear 

I'm a Lich fan, and Alhoon (Illithid Liches) are no exception. 

So, *my* first choise would be Liches, of course. Combined with Vampires or something. A kind of Twisted Rune thing...

Second Evil Outsiders, though not Demons / Devil but Half Fiends / Fey'ri / Tieflings. The ECL of Demons / Devils is simply too high.


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## Timothy (Jan 24, 2003)

Okay, let's have a vote, here are some monsters I think are playable, I am looking for a monstrous feeling instead of human(oid) villains) Althoug Drow could do.

Beholder
Bugbear
Outsiders (demon/devil with class levels)
Doppleganger
Dragon (Althoug I do not see them working together)
Formians (Coming to take over, but not good due to it's varying CR's)
Genie (Efreeti)
Giants
Gnoll
Goblin
Grimlock
Hags
Harpy
Hobgoblin
Kobold
Kuo-Toa
Lamia
Lizardfolk
Locathah
Meduse (also nice)
Mind Flayer
Minotaur
Ogre (mage)
Orc
Tiefling
Rakshasha ( I like 'em)
Sahuagin
Salamanders
Slaad
Troglodyte
Troll
Xill
yuan Ti (also very nice)
Fiendish
Intelligent undead (ghost, liches, vampires and so on)
Half Dragons
Half fiend
Lycantrope
Drow

My Favorites are 

1. Mind Flayer
2. Yuan Ti
3. Rakshasha
4. Slaad
5. Drow

If anyone could give his top 5, 1 being 5 pints and 5 being 1 point, we'll vote that way. I think that is the fairest. Also, this is just from MM 1, so if you want to add something, go right ahead.


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## Hygric (Jan 24, 2003)

Mindflayers do have one ability with a will save DC of 20, Plane Shift.

Nothing quite like the look on a fighters face when an illithid thinks in their general direction "Go to hell!" and they do.  Of course, being in the position of delivering a touch attack against a high level fighter is not recommended... but it doesn't hurt to remember.

Our first priority should be getting early warning and detection systems set up, folllowed by getting some sort of protections versus intruders just scrying / teleporting in.

Hey, and if I have five levels of ranger to play with, I could have 4HD of animal friends... maybe a pair of octopi lurking in the lake?  Not very effective, but they do have tentacles!


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## Hygric (Jan 24, 2003)

1.  Githyanki  (note that just like 'flayers, they come in psionic and non-psionic flavours).
2. Dragon
3. Mind Flayer
4. Minotaur
5. Troll


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 25, 2003)

Well, if you want to mix things up, I like the idea of Rakshasa, but you wouldn't want everyone to play one.


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## perivas (Jan 25, 2003)

At this rate, this thing will never take off.  We need to note that any level we pick will subject us to the same level of power, except in the form of pure levels of classes.  I suggest that we do not exceed level 12 for all purposes.  Resurrection and quickened spells favor the PCs too much, unless we go with a low ECL creature.  But if we go with a low ECL creature, what is the difference between that and playing an evil PC?  Nothing!

I'm favoring the mindflayer, but with very few levels to play with (i.e., 4 or less).  Out of this list, I feel that only the following are really playable, while keeping this campaign true to its unique nature.

1.  Mindflayer (+8 ECL)
2.  Yuan-Ti (+7 for pureblood, +9 for half-blood)
3.  Vampire (+10)
4.  Medusa (+6)

The others (and the vampire is almost one of them) have too high a ECL to be played effectively, or else too low of one, if which case we're just building evil PCs (no fun, IMO).  I still favor the mindflayer with 4 levels!  I don't think that we should worry too much about the other side min/maxing too much (after all, Janos Audron is on our side and I think he's probably the biggest min/maxer on this board...no insult intended).


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## Janos Audron (Jan 25, 2003)

none taken perivas...it's true.

Tim, if you have MoF, here's what I'd like:

(MoF)Greater Doppelganger (+11)
(MoF)Fey'ri (+2)
(MM)Lich (+6)
(PsiHB)Thri-kreen (+8)
(MM)Mind Flayer (+10)

Here's a site with an enormous amount of creatures with their ECL.

One thing I don't get: how do you guys justify Mind Flayer @ ECL 8?! Not only 8 HD, but stat increases and sp abilities too...


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 25, 2003)

How about a group of Phasms? 
That'll let anyone custom make their character as they see fit.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 25, 2003)

I've played a Mind Flayer at ECL +14 before, and he still tended to outshine the rest of the party.

They're just one of those creatures that's hard to ECL. And they're fairly specialized, so a group of adventurers who expect it will quickly defeat us.

BTW, I tend to make Mind Blast's DC 14 + Cha... Not sure how this jives with Psionics (don't have the psiHB), but it's a worthwhile note.

Also, regarding twinked characters, there's nothing saying you can't design a lair to protect yourself. We have _resources,_ folks, slaves, thralls at our disposal... 

And Plane Shift? "Countered by itself"? Faw! First off, if you're not prepared for the Elemental Plane of Fire, you're dead. If you are, you're still at least 5 miles away from me when you come back. Okay, so then you plane shift back, so I tap you again, until you run out of spells. Granted, touching an UBER-twink-Character-of-Death-ROFLAOL isn't an easy task, but show me a monster race that _can_ touch said uber-twink-character-of-death.

(edit I wouldn't mind evil outsiders, either... Gives us more options, in fact. Kyton Monk/Assassin, ninja-riffic!


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## Janos Audron (Jan 25, 2003)

Yes, well, it totally slipped my mind that Plane Shift can be used offensively...

Guess I should rtfm...

However, I must say that I like the Phasm idea better than the Mind Flayers...


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 25, 2003)

Phasms don't hold any particular appeal for me, but that won't stop me from playing them (or Doppelgangers, for that matter...)

I must say though, I've totally fallen in love with the idea of playing some manner of infernal bard. With an electric guitar (or rather, magic guitar.) Just picturing a Succubus/Incubus _totally rocking out_ in the middle of an ultra-violent battlefield, blood flying everywhere, is just great. _(Note, Kyton is always preferred, for style points, if you'll lift the bard's alignment restriction.)_

If we go that route, I _demand_ the ability to summon Fiendish Dire Penguins with summon monster. You can sub in whatever monster stats you like, but Fiendish Dire Penguins! Yes!


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## Janos Audron (Jan 25, 2003)

lol! That would be sooooooooo cool.


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## perivas (Jan 25, 2003)

I think we do have a consensus on the mindflayers.  They seem to be the only group on everyone's list, although it may be 5th place in some people's list.  One again, I strongly urge against getting to enemy to past 12th level (although I have a feeling that this may be falling on deaf ears).

We could probably work out more of a compromise if we are allowed to customize the base skills/feats of the mindflayer a bit more.  As is, it's too much of a mix of abilities for someone to create a character without significant levels.  But, if we say, keep the Weapon Focus (tentacles) and Alertness feats and let players pick the other three feats and treat the skills exist as class skills and all others as cross class and let us pick skills based on the total skill points they already have, players can customize and build fighter-types, roguish-types and possibly caster types fairly easily.  Just a suggestion!


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 25, 2003)

Missed where he asked for a top 5 earlier, so here's mine:

1. Demon/Devil (followed by an AIR GUITAR!!)
2. Undead
3. Kobolds (it'll totally surprise the Heroes  )
4. Mind Flayers
5. Dragons

Mind Flayers and Dragons, which are high on style points, drop on the list to account for the role-playing aspect... I have a feeling a group of Mind Flayers could get pretty boring (the whole hivemindedness -- pardon the term -- limits the personality traits), and I wouldn't begin to know how to do justice to roleplaying a dragon.

Undead and Outsiders, otoh, give more player options, as they encompass a wide variety of creatures who could still conceivably work together... PbP really thrives on interesting and diverse characters, and these races explode those options


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 26, 2003)

No offense to any lurkers from the heroes thread who might read this, but 8 dragons would destroy them, if the lair is set up right. Ironically, we'd all have to be the same color dragon, probably, because of environments (or reds and blues in a desert, but I'd love to play a white in its lair).


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 26, 2003)

If we can swap out feats, I'm up to playing a Mind Flayer, I have a sweet idea for one.

Otherwise, Outsiders or undead... or half-fiends? Can take any creature yoiu want with that... I coud have my half-fiend blink dog rogue (drool)


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 26, 2003)

I think I might join in this one if there is room... it seems not RP heavy but just PC's vs PC's and if it's resolved quick it can be laods of fun...a simple game with combat orientation.. if there is room I'll play.

Dragons eat a Party, just a note. So no prob there 

Undead are cool but so is a squad of formians if you all take the leadership feat and go myrmarch  

Troll fighter

Ghast Troll Fighter

Ghast Thri Kreen Monk (hahahha)

Sorry, that's what you can expect then from me =]



Mindblast DC is Cha + Half HD from the mindflayer. Most DC's are based on that from racial abilities. Ability mod + half HD. Checks out for everything that I could look up this fast.


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## Timothy (Jan 26, 2003)

Okay, we'll stick with mind flayers, they got 15 points, and the next best has 10 (undead)

I'll use the ECL +10 form janos' site. You'll each get 3 levels to toy with. You all have your won personality, and you do not have to let all other mind flayers hear your thoughts.

again, thralls for a total level of 12 (minimum level 3, maximum 9) and You get some slaves too (withouth class levels)

the heroes will be level 16. You can counter the weaknesses of mind flayers when designing your lair and with slaves an thralls.

I'll allow two none-mind flayer PC's who have earned the trust of the mind flayers.

Let's get too creating, those heroes are almost done!


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 26, 2003)

> I'll allow two none-mind flayer PC's who have earned the trust of the mind flayers.




lol, mindflayers no not have allies =]

[can you take ECL races as thralls?]

And why are the villains 3 levels lower then heros?


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## Timothy (Jan 26, 2003)

I know they don't have allies, but to make this game more interesting, this ones DO.

You can take ECL races as thralls

and villains are with more and have their lair, so PC's will need to be higher level.

we'll have 6-7 PC's, that means 12-14 Thralls and 18-21 Slaves, this justifies the PC's being three levels higher.
Also I expect that you guys make a very good lair to deal with the heroes.


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 26, 2003)

Are we allowed to substitute feats?


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## Timothy (Jan 26, 2003)

yes, you can, the current feats are not crucial to the mind flayer, except for combat casting, so that one's gotta stay.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 26, 2003)

Would it be acceptable if I'm a greater doppelganger @ +11, with two class levels and a Mind Flayer Brain?

Either the flayer's don't know I'm not truely one of them, or they do. Their choise.


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## Timothy (Jan 26, 2003)

how do you see the greater doppleganger with the mind flayer brain?

with a doppleganger body and a mind flayer brain you could have special abilities from both?

I don't think THAT's a good idea.

how do you see that too.


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 26, 2003)

Greater Doppleganers get all the powers of whatever brain they have ingested, and they can have 1 brain per HD.

So, technically, a 10 HD greater doppleganger could have ten lvl 20 sorcerers inside them... that's a lot of spells.

Rules-wise, I don't see a problem. RP-wise, I do, Illithids wouldn't allow a brain anywhere except the elder brain.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 26, 2003)

hm, I can only assume humanoid identities, so maybe I've eaten a thrall. That'd leave me with a 12th level char at best and the basic greater doppelganger as characters, and maybe something else if I'd eat it.

The abilities of a GD aren't that great. They suck. They are as strong as the identities they can adopt.

To eat 12 20th level sorcerers, I'd need a lot of spells, I think, and to do that, I need to start with lower level wizards, and then work my way up, and the personality loss is random, so after a while I'd be losing 20th level sorcerers instead of 10th level wizards...

Maybe a max level of what I can consume?


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 26, 2003)

Because I'm such a trusting soul  everyone should post their email address so we can do the strategy part over a more secure form of communication.

cnoonan@onlinesupport.com


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## Janos Audron (Jan 26, 2003)

lol

Rom_Arendonk@hotmail.com

Also for MSN


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 26, 2003)

skywise@swoo.net

Not sure on the status of the non-Flayers yet, but in order of preference, could you nix/accept these?

(Those marked with N require non-Flayer races, those with A create some alignment conflicts in-party, those with B require the alignment restriction on bard to be lifted, and those with a G want a magic equivalent of an electric guitar )

- Bardic Succubus [N, A, G]
- Bardic Kyton [N, B, G]
- Kyton monk/assassin [N]
- Bardic Illithid [B, G]
- More-or-less "normal" flayer

Granted, I may be best off saving the Bardic Succubus for "A Game of Demons" (more carnage for me to _totally rock out_ in the middle of) when it happens (and it's bound to), but nonetheless, once you get stuck on a character it's hard to shake 

(Note: All Bards also want Fiendish Dire penguins, especially the Succubus!)


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## Janos Audron (Jan 26, 2003)

Are you by any chance Wyrph?


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 26, 2003)

Would the DM allow an Alhoon (lich Mindflayer) without Character Levels?

Btw for thralls, can we take HD instead of humand with levels or something. Say you'd want to take a giant thrall or something.


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## arwel (Jan 26, 2003)

Alhoon would be very cool. How do people think this one's going to pan out? Personaly I'd like to do a fair amout of actual roleplay, maybe trying to play off the good guys against the Drow, that kind of thing. Or is it going to be a straight PVP combat orientated game? I don't mind either way, I just need to know what to expect.

arwel.griffith@lycos.co.uk


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 26, 2003)

straight pvp is better. Alot of players and needs to be a short and intens game. Much fun and no need to last. THese boards need a short high action no rp game 

NukemUntilTheyGlow@hotmail.com


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## Timothy (Jan 26, 2003)

Hmm, I don't have a [GD] acronym yet (Do I? I keep foergetting some of the games I DM ) So I'm bound to start that one up in time. But for now I've decided to stick with what I have for now. But sice this game has a limited timespawn, I may go for A Game of Demons after this.

Okay, new rule: (I'm very sorry) I don't own Monsters of Faerun, so I won't be able to allow monsters from that resource, unless the mechanics are fully tped out here. If you want to be any none-MM creature, tell me what book its in, and I'll tell you if it's allowed or not.

Guilt puppy, because I want to keep this game serious (more or less) so Air Guitars and dire pinguins do not really fit into that, kiton mink can be done and normal mind flayers too.

About the alhoon: what book, what stats and what ECL?


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 26, 2003)

ALhoon is just a Illithid lich. So just imagin a Illithid ich and your about 99% there I believe =]


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## Timothy (Jan 26, 2003)

this will be a short adventure, action packed, player vs player.

The game will start with the heroes descending into the underdark, they will meet relativly little resistance other than you throw up. you can arrange for other villains to start harrasing them too.

The heroes are working very fast, so I would like you guys to get the show going very fast, start  making characters as soon as you rconcept is approved, and start thinking about startegy and you're lair right away.

Alhoon is okay, if the ECL+ is the same as the CR+ (is it) otherwise, I would have to know a lich's ECL+


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## perivas (Jan 26, 2003)

I'll take a mindflayer, despite my earlier comments about being a goblin shaman.  Is BoVD allowed for our characters?  I really, really hope so!  Anyhow, here's my email address:

c h o i m a n t a i @ h o t m a i l . c o m

Please forward me any strategy emails that I may have missed.  Thanks!

Get ready to rumble!!!!


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## Timothy (Jan 26, 2003)

email: gijsvanbilsen@hotmail.com

and that's what I forgot

Book of Vile Darkness, a must have for every villain to be, PLZ use this book!

(Although try to avoid ethic subjects when designing characters) I don't want the game to become Vile.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 27, 2003)

Timothy said:
			
		

> *Guilt puppy, because I want to keep this game serious (more or less) so Air Guitars and dire pinguins do not really fit into that, kiton mink can be done and normal mind flayers too.
> *




*Guilt Puppy air guitars mournfully*

Kyton monk it is, then (or Monk/Assassin, depending on the Kyton's ECL... +12 according to the link posted here, which would leave just one class level)

BTW, If you do a game of demons at some point, I vote for a less serious tone 

(I just realized... Are you going by ECL or CR? Doing ECL for both doesn't quite work out proper, as it's usually higher based on being played over many encounters, whereas this will probably be only a few encounters. Possibly average the two?)


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## Timothy (Jan 27, 2003)

I'll go for a game of monsters with a very light tone after this, ok? 

and about the CR's, The heroes have to take ECL's too, so I think I'll keep it that way. Remember that you're greatest strength is in your lair.

I like the suggestions I got via mail so far, although I won't be giving ideas. I will only prrove or disapprove.


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## Hygric (Jan 27, 2003)

email: kshillin@bigpond.net.au


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## Wippit Guud (Jan 28, 2003)

Ok, again about the DC... someone said it's Cha mod + 1/2 HD.
I think you forgot the 10 added to that, a base mind flayer is DC 17.

Mine is a bit higher


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 28, 2003)

Does that DC apply to other creatures (ie my wraith thrall?)

Evil, evil grin...


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 28, 2003)

Wraiths can't be thralls. Undead are immune to mind effecting may I remind you  Sorry to trash your party. I seriously suggest taking very good thrall monsters or humans or dwarves with levels and certain good powers and spells to bring some diversity in. 

I suggest that EVERYONE takes leadership and some great cohort or another mindflayer cohort with levels......

And cohorts can take cohorts.... I don't know how far we should take that but we could. I recommend everyones takes leadership and the cohort that comes with it, cohorts cohorts can get a bit lame so I suggest we drop that. But we'll need our numbers so...

And euhm yeah I didn't include the 10 base but that's considered normal IMHO .

There are items to boost your DC... 25.000 for a amulet that grants +5 to DC's of all inherent abilities and Spell Likes abilities...

A must have for everyone.

[It's from montecook]

I'll do the map but I'm waiting for a answer from creamsteak if I could use his map maker.


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## arwel (Jan 28, 2003)

> There are items to boost your DC... 25.000 for a amulet that grants +5 to DC's of all inherent abilities and Spell Likes abilities...




Just when I'd thought I'd finished along comes another thing to buy. What book is it from and can we use it? So far I've stuck with the core books and the BoVD. Are we able to take Leadership? Whilst we're ECL 13 we're still third level charachters and Leadership requires us to be 6th level.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 28, 2003)

> [It's from montecook]




read next time please  (just to quote from an unedited post )

And we are ECL 13 like you said. 

E C L

Equiv. to level 13

ECL counts as levels... so plz


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 28, 2003)

what ECL are we doing liches by Timothy?


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## Timothy (Jan 28, 2003)

Leadership can be taken, but I'll not allow any cohorts with leadership. Followers are the slaves, so no extra ceatures in that. Also, one rule for leadership: Your cohort has to be at least 2 levels lower than you, no matter what your leadership score.

Thralls will go on ECL too Btw.


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## Timothy (Jan 28, 2003)

ECL for a lich is +6, so no can do I'm afraid.

I'm sorry but I don't see a way around this, if you do, plz say so, because I'm willing too allow it if it's legal.


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## arwel (Jan 28, 2003)

> read next time please  (just to quote from an unedited post )



 I did read, it's just that Monte Cook has written several books and I wanted to know which one I needed to borrow  I was in some confusion over the Leadership ECL thing since other level dependant benefits like extra feats and ability increases only count actual class levels. No need to argue any more since we get to choose it if we want.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 29, 2003)

it's from Demon Gods Fane


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## Timothy (Jan 29, 2003)

okay, could everyone édit in their final versions of their chars into the first post they made in this thread? This allows me to have all the characters near each other, withouth making a character thread that is way too much temptaion for those nasty, so-called heroes.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 29, 2003)

I prefer we mail them all to you and then you mail them around. I am evil so I know how to counter a bit if it 

And I'm very willing to create the lair, if I can get my hands on a decent map maker...

I got to finish my two thralls though.

Btw anyone here WITH the leadership feat, please create a Abjurer/Counterspeller wizard (11th level so you can take greater dispelling 3 times ect.)

I'd like to ruin there casters... so anyone please?


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## Timothy (Jan 29, 2003)

Well, I trust both of the teams equally (whether I don't trust you at all, or whether I do, is completely another point ) So I think editing your chars into your first post is justified. The heroes (or you guys) just ruin it when you're checking the other thread.

(That'll make the heroes who are reading this feel guilty )


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 29, 2003)

Good thing guilt is an emotion not familiar to us.


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## Guilt Puppy (Jan 30, 2003)

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> *Good thing guilt is an emotion not familiar to us. *




Speak for yourself.

*rimshooooot*


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 30, 2003)

Attacks from hiding, mindblasts which save you fail, gives you 4 negative levels, draws init and gives you 5 more?

Try that


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## perivas (Jan 30, 2003)

I've looked at some of the characters and I have two questions.  I thought that we were limited to 2 thralls each...totalling 12 levels together, not 12 levels each.  Secondly, although we are ECL 13, I thought that the requirement for Leadership is level 6, which as mindflayers we could not be at...as we have only 3 levels.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 30, 2003)

We are ECL 13 like you said, *sigh*

It's in the thing: EQUIV CHARACTER LEVEL <---- Level

They count for Feats, classes, everything so also level 6 in the feat as leadership. I haven't ever heard anyone about this... peculiar 

Sorry if I sound harsh, but this is like the second or third time someone brought it up in the thread, reach each others questions please.

{and I am evil may I remind you}


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## perivas (Jan 31, 2003)

The Forsaken One said:
			
		

> *We are ECL 13 like you said, *sigh*
> 
> It's in the thing: EQUIV CHARACTER LEVEL <---- Level
> 
> ...




Would our thralls, etc. count against our leadership score?  If so, by how much?


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## Janos Audron (Jan 31, 2003)

TFO, as always you have a big mouth, but little knowledge of the actual rules.

FRCS, the sidebar on page 21 says that: "You still use the characters ACTUAL LEVEL for everything else (such as when you acquire FEATS, skillpoint acquisition, and so on)."

Now, one *might* try to argue that, since Mind Flayers have 8 HD, they already qualify for Leadership, but personally, I would think that is far fetched.

Thrall wouldn't count against Leadership, since an Illithid witout Leadership can have thralls.


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## Timothy (Jan 31, 2003)

well, if this is the case, I'll have to disallow Leadership all together. I'm sorry guys. But you have enough allies with your thralland slaves allready.


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 31, 2003)

Rom... wat nou als we onze domme slaves powderkegs mee gaan geven?

(500 dmg?)

[Mindblast en charge met de sukkel hehe, ik ga dat maar eens doen denk ik. Gewoon full medium eight aan powerderkegs mee geven. Eens zienhoeveel dmg dat is hehe.]


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## The Forsaken One (Jan 31, 2003)

> FRCS, the sidebar on page 21 says that: "You still use the characters ACTUAL LEVEL for everything else (such as when you acquire FEATS, skillpoint acquisition, and so on)."




FRCS, find it in the DMG or PHB.

In the normal world FRCS aint a core book


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## Janos Audron (Feb 1, 2003)

*sigh* FRCS has updated, or at least easier to understand ECL mechanics.

Splat books aren't core books either, but the Polymorph Other spell in the PHB has been replaced by the T&B one.

LFTS!!!


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## Timothy (Feb 2, 2003)

Double post, look below.

OI, Garyh, Creamy, get your modded .... overhere


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## Timothy (Feb 2, 2003)

okay, does anyone have any tactics he/she wants to share?


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## Janos Audron (Feb 2, 2003)

1 lvl of rogue, max use magic device, item of +30 use magic device, scroll of teleport to save my sorry ass when the heroes come?


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## Timothy (Feb 2, 2003)

that does add up to the whole villainy feel, doesn't it.


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 2, 2003)

Max use magic device and buy scrolls of Disjunction.

*please*

Or how does it work with casters, can a 11th level abjurer cast 9th levels scrolls with his DC's of a 9th level spell?

Timothy, I'm really in favor of Leadership.... grants us alot more versatility.


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## Guilt Puppy (Feb 2, 2003)

Depending on how much "funding" I have, I wouldn't mind having a lair of chains to lure the PCs into.

Even a series of fairly small tunnels... Perhaps something a pit trap can drop them into? Chains from wall to wall, thick enough to slow their mobility (and a thin enough tunnel that they can't march side by side)

Yeah, that would be neat.


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## The Forsaken One (Feb 3, 2003)

I'm up to creating a lair, but I'm VERY VERY VERY busy with University, hobbies and other PbP stuff at the moment so I *hope* to have it all done by the end of this week.

*hope* (If I can cut myself down on gaming time )


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## Timothy (Feb 12, 2003)

sorry for the long wait, I just wanted to give TFO the Time he needed.

Anyway, I put up a character thread, here. I copy-pasted three chars from my mail allready, could you plzpost what charcetr is yours, and post you char if it hasn't been done so allready.

Also, Does anybody else wants to create a lair, or some defenses in advance, the heropes have been introduces, and as soon as I hear something from you guys, they're off like lambs to the slaughter....l


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