# The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within



## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

Ok everyone, through a great stroke of luck, my local store got this book in on Oct. 7th.  Here follows the review.

The book has eight chapters, an introduction and an appendix.

Note:  I have not read every single spell, PrC, or feat, but I'll mention anything that jumps out at me.  

*Chapter One:*

The first bit is about defining evil in your game.  "Evil" is very clearly defined as not being misunderstood, but truly, unrepentantly vile.  Several examples follow that help one define whether an act is evil or not.  Next is definitions of evil acts, such as theft, lying, betrayal, or murder.  Such things could be used as a yardstick for determining evilness.  

After that several fetishes and addictions are defined, along with any relavant game mechanics (those interested in self-mutiliation are rarely at full hit points, for example).  

Next there are detailed several vile gods; not the demon princes (those have a whole chapter to themselves) but simply other very evil gods.  

Also included are vile races (particularly evil versions of humans and halflings), a few ready-to-run vile villains, and a couple of malign sites.

*Chapter Two*

This is the varient rules.  It includes the rules for being possessed (and which demons can do it, and what they can do with a possessed person), making sacrifices (and the kinds of power people gain from it the more vile it is), curses, diseases, and several other vile things (like using souls or liquid pain in magic item creation).  

*Chapter Three*

This is all the torture devices, poison, drugs, and execution equipment that any evil villain ever needed.  Rules are supplied for using and/or making all of the above.  One particularly evil thing included was traps for armor, weapons, or equipment.  Remember how Blade's sword was really deadly to those that tried to pick it up that didn't know its secret?  Same idea, but think of things like armor that explodes if you put it on wrong.

*Chapter Four*

Feats, feats, feats.  Also included are the new vile feats, for which you have to be evil.  The power granted is supernatural rather than extraordinary.  There are several feats that allow one to effectively "metamagic" spell-like abilities, which could be deadly in the hands of demon or devils.  Other feats brand you as the thrall of evil minons.  Others are abilities you gain for willingly deforming yourself.  

*Chapter Five*

Prestige classes.  Several disciples and thralls of various powerful demons and devils.  Also those that specialize in summoning infernal or abyssal beings, along with PrCs for devils, demons, or vampires.  

*Chapter Six*

Magic.  Many new spells and magic items of the vilest sort.  My time skimming this chapter was punctuated with squeals of "Ew!  Ew!  Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeew!!!!!"  Most of the spells in here are utterly evil.  A few are mostly utility for dark powers (spells that extinguish light or preserve organs) while others are used for very dark purposes.  Some are disgusting, true, while some are simply evil (a spell that causes damage not to the target, but to a close friend or loved one, for example).  Any PC with a shred of decency will look upon the casters of most of these spells with horror.  (Case in point, look at the picture for _rapture of rupture_ on the page following the spell description.)

Most of the spells have a cost.  Some can only be cast by outsiders.  Some cause temporary or permanent ability damage (a la Call of Cthulhu).  Others can only be cast if the person is currently suffering from a specific disease or poison.  

Next follows the evil magic items and artifacts.  Most are quite vile, though on weapon special ability leapt out at me as unbalanced.  The Cursespewing weapons quality casts _bestow curse_, a fourth level spell, time it deals damage.  You need a DC 15 Will save to avoid the effects.  Yet it only has a +1 market price.  I would up that considerably.  

However, most of the other weapons look better balanced.  Most are quite frightning.  Angelkiller forces celestials to save or die whenever it damages one.  The Armor (and Belt) of the Dread Emperor are truly among the most vile (to me) items in the book (trust me on this).  

*Chapter Seven*

The Lords of Evil.  Here you are, your Demon Lords and Archdevils.  Yup.  They're here, they're the living embodiment of evil.  

*Chapter Eight*

Evil monsters.  Includes new demons, new devils, the return of an old favorite, the eye of fear and flame, kythons (mindless creatures of evil, the experiments of fiends), a nasty hailing from Carceri, a particularly evil undead, and three temples (bone, a smart skeleton, corpse, a smart zombie, and corrupted, a beyond fiendish template for the extremely evil)

*Appendix*

The only place where running an evil campaign is here, a three-page appendix giving a few ideas on how to run a campaign with one or more evil PCs.

*Conclusion*

Things are presented in a clear and non-sensationalist manner.  At two points during the book, there are author's notes pointing out that he does not endorse any of this material at all.  This book is simply to add an extra dimension to certain types of games.

The vile acts are defined in an almost dictionary-like fashion.  This material is not "played up" or glorified.  The ideas presented within, if set against PCs, would certainly urge them to destroy such evil rather than join or revel in it.  

All in all, I found it to be a good purchase.  Using such material would allow a DM to create evil foes that need such great heroes as the PCs to stop them.


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## Crothian (Oct 8, 2002)

Cool, thanks for the review.


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## Xarlen (Oct 8, 2002)

Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Chapter Two
> 
> This is the varient rules.  It includes the rules for being possessed (and which demons can do it, and what they can do with a possessed person), making sacrifices (and the kinds of power people gain from it the more vile it is), curses, diseases, and several other vile things (like using souls or liquid pain in magic item creation).*




Whee!  Yay! Curses, Diseases, and evil items and such.



> *Chapter Three*
> 
> This is all the torture devices, poison, drugs, and execution equipment that any evil villain ever needed.  Rules are supplied for using and/or making all of the above.  One particularly evil thing included was traps for armor, weapons, or equipment.  Remember how Blade's sword was really deadly to those that tried to pick it up that didn't know its secret?  Same idea, but think of things like armor that explodes if you put it on wrong.




Jackpot. I *am* going to use that when my party deals with the dwarven vampire that's a thorn in their side, AND when they tango with the Zhentriam.





> Prestige classes.  Several disciples and thralls of various powerful demons and devils.  Also those that specialize in summoning infernal or abyssal beings, along with PrCs for devils, demons, or vampires.




Yay! Vampire PrCs.



> *Chapter Eight*
> 
> Evil monsters.  Includes new demons, new devils, the return of an old favorite, the eye of fear and flame, kythons (mindless creatures of evil, the experiments of fiends), a nasty hailing from Carceri, a particularly evil undead, and three temples (bone, a smart skeleton, corpse, a smart zombie, and corrupted, a beyond fiendish template for the extremely evil)




Woow. Undeads, in *templates*. Woot.  

See folks? No pure evil that will warp your children, nothing to panic over.

How's the art? Is it very nudey/gory?


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## Ulrick (Oct 8, 2002)

Thanks for the review.

Now another person shall possess the Book of Vile Darkness in IOWA!

HA HA HA HA!

The Dungeon Master


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## Kai Lord (Oct 8, 2002)

Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *There are several feats that allow one to effectively "metamagic" spell-like abilities, which could be deadly in the hands of demon or devils.*




Could you elaborate on this one, please?  Can good characters with Spell-like abilities take this feat without suffering ill effects?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

Some gory pictures, some nudity, but nothing much nuder than we've seen in some Mongoose books I could name.  However, the nudity is a bit more on the disturbing side (sacrifices, succubi, demon-summoners).  The nudity isn't particularly provocative, it's more incidental.  (Well, the picture of Belial and Fierna is a bit... out there, I'll admit.)

The gore isn't over the top, it seems just right for the situations in which it is used.  The situations might be somewhat extreme, but then again, this is a book of _vile_ darkness.

Ulrick - do I know you?  I'm in Ames too, I got mine at Mayhem.


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## lambdaZUG (Oct 8, 2002)

I wasn't sure I was going to get this book after all the brouhaha & controversy surrounding it, but it sounds like the book actually has quite a bit of worthwhile & reasonable material I can actually use in a campaign. Thanks for the review!


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## Xarlen (Oct 8, 2002)

Dang. No topless Bardesses battling an Incubi to the ... 'bitter end'?


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## Dragongirl (Oct 8, 2002)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Dang. No topless Bardesses battling an Incubi to the ... 'bitter end'? *




:: rolls eyes ::

Anyway, thanks for the review, makes me want it all the more.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within*



			
				Kai Lord said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Could you elaborate on this one, please?  Can good characters with Spell-like abilities take this feat without suffering ill effects? *




Boost Spell-like ability increases the DC of the ability a certain number of times per day, this and Empower Spell-like ability (just like it sounds) are both general feats that anyone can use without harm.

Corrupt Spell-like ability lets you turn half the damage into unholy damage.  You must be evil (and there are some other effects too).


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## Xarlen (Oct 8, 2002)

Dragongirl said:
			
		

> *
> 
> :: rolls eyes ::
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the review, makes me want it all the more. *




I'm teasing.  

The Incubi can be naked too. 

On a serious note, I AM glad the nudity and gore aren't gratitust.


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## Xarlen (Oct 8, 2002)

Do the Spell-Like Ability metas suck away the amount of time you can use 'em? The 'Quicken Spell LIke' in the MMII does that.


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## Kai Lord (Oct 8, 2002)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Do the Spell-Like Ability metas suck away the amount of time you can use 'em? The 'Quicken Spell LIke' in the MMII does that. *




No it doesn't.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *Do the Spell-Like Ability metas suck away the amount of time you can use 'em? The 'Quicken Spell LIke' in the MMII does that. *




No, but you can only use them so many times per day.  And I almost forgot the other two abilities...  Quicken Spell-Like abiliy, just like it sounds, a general feat, and Violate spell-like ability, which is even worse than Corrupt spell-like ability (it does vile damage instead of unholy damage).


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## CobaltGrC (Oct 8, 2002)

Hey Ray Silver are you a student in Iowa City?  My friend and I have been looking for people to game with...  

Good review I'm thinking about picking the book up tommorw..


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## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 8, 2002)

*grumble* It won't be here until Friday.   Damn you, UPS man.  Get some packages mixed up, or something.


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## Swack-Iron (Oct 8, 2002)

Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Chapter Seven*
> 
> The Lords of Evil.  Here you are, your Demon Lords and Archdevils.  Yup.  They're here, they're the living embodiment of evil. [/B]




So, what's the final big answer on how Demon Lords and Archdevils operate: are they nigh-unto divine and can grant spells (or spell-like abilities) or are they simply very high CR monsters, or some other arrangement?


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## Kai Lord (Oct 8, 2002)

Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Some gory pictures, some nudity, but nothing much nuder than we've seen in some Mongoose books I could name.*




Who did the art?  Lockwood, Wood, WAR, and the rest of the usual suspects or does it have an entirely different style in addition to the subject matter?


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## Krug (Oct 8, 2002)

Nice review. Put it into the d20 Guide.


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## qstor (Oct 8, 2002)

what's Orcus's CR? 


Mike


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

CobaltGrC - Ames, not Iowa City I'm afraid.

Swack-Iron - They are not divine beings, but they are incredibly powerful (I don't think I saw anything below CR 20, and at least one was CR 29).  It mentions that they serve as patrons to clerics without gods (the ones that serve abstract forces of evil).  But it does mention, in general, how to "level them up" and give them a divine rank.  You'd need Dieties and Demigods to fully stat them out, but it gives you a general idea.  Also they figured out the domains for you in Chapter 6.  

Kai Lord - Aritsts include Reynolds, Grant-West, Sardinha, Easley, Fischer, Cavotta, and Swekel, along with another half-dozen I didn't immediately recognize.  The art style wasn't radically different than anything we've seen before, though some had some interesting styles.

Krug - I tried to last night, but while it's on the main list, I couldn't find it on the "Select a Product to Review" drop down list.  But as soon as that appears, I'm there.  

qstor - Orcus' CR is 28.


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## James McMurray (Oct 8, 2002)

Great review, now I know I have to go get this book!

Can undead cast Corrupt spells that reuire an ability damage cost?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

It doesn't mention any restrictions against undead casting these spells, but logically I'd make them take Charisma damage in lieu of spells that require Constitution damage.  The logic behind that is they use their Cha mod for Fort saving throws, so using Cha to replace Con in spell costs only seems fair.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

Hi there Ray Silver! 

Does Wayne Reynolds illustrate any of the Demon Princes/Arch-Devils? If so which ones?

Also what is Demogorgons and Yeenoghus Hit Dice?

Thanks!


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi there Ray Silver!
> 
> Does Wayne Reynolds illustrate any of the Demon Princes/Arch-Devils? If so which ones?
> 
> ...




Demogorgon has 39d8 +390 (565hp) and a CR of 30.

Yeenoghu has 33d8 + 363 (511hp) and a CR of 22.

Wayne drew Mephistopheles.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

Hi Ray Silver mate! 



			
				Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Demogorgon has 39d8 + 390 (565hp) and a CR of 30.
> 
> Yeenoghu has 33d8 + 363 (511hp) and a CR of 22.*




Thanks! 

We know that Asmodeus has 35d8 + 350 (507) and a CR of 32.

Spell Resistance generally seems to be CR+13.



			
				Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Wayne drew Mephistopheles. *




Darn it! I was hoping he would get Demogorgon or Graz'zt...ah well; I'm sure their all pretty well illustrated regardless.


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## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

*Asmodeus*

Ray!

Please tell me!

Who drew Asmodeus and confirm his CR.  Is it 32 and is it the highest in the book?

Thanks!


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

Demogorgon was done by... hmm...  I don't recognize the signature.  What artist uses a circle and cross over the year?   Is that Fischer?  Graz'zt was done by Jeremy Jarvis.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: Asmodeus*



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> *Ray!
> 
> Please tell me!
> 
> ...




Demon Lord/Archdevil - CR
Demogorgon - 30
Graz'zt - 24
Juiblex - 20
Orcus - 28
Yeenoghu - 22
Bel - 20
Dispater - 26
Mammon -  25
Belial/Feirna - 24
Levistus - 25
Hag Countess - 22
Baalzebul - 29
Mephistopheles - 29
Asmodeus - 32

Fischer drew Asmodeus.


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## The Cardinal (Oct 8, 2002)

cool sh*t!

I need this book *now* - my next character will be a Risen Demon (from FFG's Mythic Races), an ex-servant of Demogorgon. And since he still counts as being evil, although he is LG, I might find some cool "vile" feat for him...


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: Asmodeus*



			
				Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Demon Lord/Archdevil - CR
> 
> Graz'zt - 24 *




Truly this is the most vile thing in the entire book!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

Those Arch-Devil & Demon Prince stats seem kind of weak.   I wonder how the Geyron & Molich stats from the Tome of Horrors will stack up?


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Asmodeus*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Truly this is the most vile thing in the entire book!  *




Don't worry about Graz'zt's CR.  Worry instead about the two Sor 6 marliths, the six max hit point lamias, the 7th level cleric, the 6th level lamia cleric, the sor 7/Thrall of Graz'zt 6, and the succubus Rog 6 that tend to hang around Graz'zt _all the time_.

Did I mention he has minions, a cult, and bunch of loyal followers?


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## Numion (Oct 8, 2002)

So, in your opinion, does the book lead to the doom of D&D as we know it? Will it turn people who use it to the ways of evil?


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: Graz'zt*

Hi Ray Silver mate! 



			
				Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Don't worry about Graz'zt's CR.  Worry instead about the two Sor 6 marliths, the six max hit point lamias, the 7th level cleric, the 6th level lamia cleric, the sor 7/Thrall of Graz'zt 6, and the succubus Rog 6 that tend to hang around Graz'zt all the time.*




An attractive entourage and one that might impress some low level types but insignificant cannon fodder in the grand scheme of things.

Perhaps if we add Eclavdra (who should rightfully be a cleric of Graz'zt) from the Epic Level Handbook we can just about save him from ignominious defeat at the hands of a party of marauding 20th-level PCs...



			
				Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Did I mention he has minions, a cult, and bunch of loyal followers? *




Irrelevant, given that every other Demon Prince will have similar minions and servitors.

Graz'zts status, in and of his own power, should be comparable to the likes of Demogorgon and Orcus. There simply is no excuse to the contrary!

No matter which way you slice it Graz'zt got the shaft!


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## Florin (Oct 8, 2002)

I used to work at Mayhem.  I'm glad they got them a little early.    It must have been Schutte's vileness that attracted the book early.    Oh, and if you see him, tell him Troy said that.


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## Grazzt (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *Those Arch-Devil & Demon Prince stats seem kind of weak.   I wonder how the Geyron & Molich stats from the Creature Catalog will be? *




Moloch is in the Tome of Horrors preview, along with my fave arch devil....Lucifer.

Their is a link to the Tome preview on Necromancer's site:

http://www.necromancergames.com/


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Asmodeus*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Truly this is the most vile thing in the entire book!  *




Must agree this is only vile thing I'm ever going to see WotC print.

Abyssally low power levels from singular entities, that should be truly powerful, and horrible number of not-so-powerful creatures, that are easy to min-max within rules to be more powerful (or rather, more dangerous), than these supposingly powerful creatures ever are going to get to be in hands of offical rule creators.

And idea of deities being protected by their number of followers as suggested in Deities & Demigods, makes me doubt my sanity, to actually have wasted good money for such a book.


Another vile thing I expect to see, are spells/feats with exactly same effects I've seen this far, but with package of disadvantages 'cause they are 'evil'.

I my villains are going to penalized for their way to power, why did they picked it in first place, when greedy path of neutrality would grant all the same, without negative sides effects.


Well, these are my doubts about this book and it's usefulness to me.

Rumors about perversions and nasty stuff in BoVD, is to me, just empty hype.


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## jester47 (Oct 8, 2002)

*ROCK ME AZMODEUS!*

ooo! ooo! Rock me Azmodeus!
ooo! ooo! Rock me Azmodeus!

Azmodeus Azmodeus, Az - Mo - Deus
Azmodeus Azmodeus, Az - Mo - Deus
Azmodeus Azmodeus 

Rock Rock me Azmodeus

He was the first punk ever to set foot on this earth.
He was a genius from the day of his birth.
He could play the fiddle like a ring and a bell
And ev'rybody screamed:
Come on, rock me Azmodeus.
He was a superstar, he was dynamite and whatever he did (it)
Seemed to be alright.
And he drank (and) he cursed and he fooled around
But when the women would shout:
Rock me Azmodeus,
Azmodeus, Azmodeus, Azmodeus,
Azmodeus, Azmodeus, Azmodeus,
Oh oh oh Azmodeus.
With a bottle of wine in one hand and a succubus in the other
'Cause he was a ladies man
He never stopped to worry what the next day would bring
Because the girls would sing:
Rock me Azmodeus,
etc...
His mind was on rock and roll and having fun
Because he lived so fast they all died so young.
But he made his mark in history.
Still ev'rybody says:
Rock me Azmodeus


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

I think I'm going to stick with my copy of the Creature Catalog that I printed out a while back.   These guys seem like a push over for the status they hold.


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## Sinistar (Oct 8, 2002)

I will have to order this as no one in or around Dallas is carrying it...

But I think the CR of the Demons/Devils sounds about right. I would hold off final judgement until I see their actual abilites, but that puts them out of the range of your standard party to directly assault them, but the party would have the ability to challenge their minions and to thwart their plans.

Everyone likes different levels to play at, (my personal favorite is 10-15th level) but even with high level non-epic this is going to be a challenge rating that is beyond a party (the 20's may be an exception). But if you are in epic levels, you should be slaying demon princes, I mean what else is there to do?


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## Florin (Oct 8, 2002)

Are they pushovers if you only use the core books, or are they only pushovers if you use supplemental material?  I'm sure WotC wanted to keep the book core rules only compatible, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were pushovers for groups that use more books.  Of course, the DM should feel free to add in stuff from those books to the demon and devil lords also...


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## IceBear (Oct 8, 2002)

Yeah, I think it was mentioned that the book provides the stats as powerful monsters, but there were rules/options to make them divine beings using the rules from Deities and Demigods.  Remember, the only requirements of published supplements is that you have the core rules, not other supplements.  Since they can't assume everyone has Deities and Demigods the demon and devil princes are going to be less than "divine" 

IceBear


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

Sinistar said:
			
		

> *
> Everyone likes different levels to play at, (my personal favorite is 10-15th level) but even with high level non-epic this is going to be a challenge rating that is beyond a party (the 20's may be an exception). But if you are in epic levels, you should be slaying demon princes, I mean what else is there to do? *




This is IMO, very true. Everyone has their opinion as to what is right power level to present unique monsters (or any monster for that matter) or deities.

What comes to slaying demon/devil-lords, these rules make it possible, and IMO, a bit too easy. WotC reason to make such stats, is because they want to keep their game player-centered, where every statted monster can be hacked to pieces without much thought (depending on how dm plays it, of course, if stats were good enough alone, there wouldn't be so mant people 'bothered about disposable dragons', now would there?  )

Heh, but IMO there are much else to do on higher levels than slay bigger baddies, but sure one can do that too.

What bothers me, is that it's made too easy, and these supposingly unique critters lack feeling of being unique, if their powerlevel fails to deserve their name.

These creatures have been around for eons. Now, why hasn't some upstart group of powerful critters of pc party hasn't walked over them yet?

Personal power certainly is not all that matters, but comes moments where it actully only thing, that truly counts.

For me it's simple a fact, that when I know if my players look at stats on book and wouldn't feel any fearful respect, (while comparing odds to some min-maxed 20th level character group), I know critter is too lame to uphold position in nasty place like Hell/Abyss.

Then a bit comments on epic rules in general,

What comes to epic rules, I strongly dislike rules WotC made. They just basicly repeat over everything already within PHB/DMG/MM/classbooks, sometimes multiplaying values by ten.
(gold pieces, skill ranks needed, mainly).

To add to that, book describes character classes up to 30th level, but epic effect around skills and possibility to actually cast epic lv. spells come around when character is between 50 to 120 lv.
And supposingly new epic Prc abilities are pretty lame (read, similar to non-epic).

And many potential rule-problems stand there unattanted.

And artifacts are boring.

To me, there is no epic levels. There is levels over 20th, but they follow exact same rules as in PHB and I just use corrected CR calculations.


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## Aloïsius (Oct 8, 2002)

Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Demogorgon was done by... hmm...  I don't recognize the signature.  What artist uses a circle and cross over the year?   Is that Fischer?  Graz'zt was done by Jeremy Jarvis. *





The same circle and cross as the MM Dragonne, Hippogriff or Sphinx ? That's Daren Bader, one of my fave, sadly underused by WotC. If only Bader, Lockwood and Wood had made all the illos made by Baxa, Easley and Kaluta...



Oh, and hello Craig !  So you're disappointed Thrin's great-uncle is merely CR 24 now  ? I guess that's indeed a bit humiliating. But where's the problem ? I don't think your Odin, for example, is the one in D&Dg either... The loss of power of archfiend seems in line, IMHO, with the loss of power of deities, so that is, at least, consistent with itself. Of course, that requires extra work for those who want cosmic beings with more grandeur; but in your case that work is already made, isn't it  ?


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## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *These guys seem like a push over for the status they hold. *






I really have to ask what level games you run. 24-32 CRs aren't a challenge for you? If you hand out levels so readily that this CR is a pushover, I don't think the fault les with the book.

Doesn't 20th level mean anything to anyone anymore? Sheesh...


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## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

Tavern Wench: "You boys got back here a lot sooner than we thought."

Fighter:  "Yeah, we thought we had to fight a great wyrm red dragon, but lucky for us, it was just Graz'zt."


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## Numion (Oct 8, 2002)

If the demon / devil princes' CRs had been pushed to the 40+ range they wouldn't be very usable with the core books. As it is now, they can be possibly used as major enemies to battle for non-epic groups. This is right IMO, because BoVD doesn't require the ownership of ELHB to use.


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## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

Nice review...

So what is Orcus's spell resistance?  I have been trying to get someone to answer this question for 3 days now!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> 
> I really have to ask what level games you run. 24-32 CRs aren't a challenge for you? If you hand out levels so readily that this CR is a pushover, I don't think the fault lies with the book. *




Given that PC's reach 20th level pretty fast, hell it can be only a couple of years in game time, I would think these "cosmic entities" would be a little more imposing.   It seems to me that a party would have cleaned their clocks long ago.   They could barely get work as gate guards in the city of Union out of the ELH!


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## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *
> So what is Orcus's spell resistance?  I have been trying to get someone to answer this question for 3 days now! *




Earlier in the thread, people said:

Orcus' CR is 28.

SR generally follows CR+13.

If you do the math, that give an SR of 41. 

HTH


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## Kobold Avenger (Oct 8, 2002)

Here are some questions, what are some of the demon lords/archdevils that were mentioned in the book but not given stats?  Are there any mentions on Anthraxus, Fraz-Ublu, Zuggytmoy, Pazuzu/Pazrael, General of Gehenna, Pale Night, and so on?

Are any of the pictures in the book at the same level of twisted as a picture from WW's revised Tzimisce Clanbook, where they show a picture of a female vampire with a big tooth filled mouth with tentacles for a crotch standing over a male victim?


----------



## johnnype (Oct 8, 2002)

Can we get a listing of the prestige classes included in the book? A brief description would also help if possible.

As far as power levels are concerned, I would like to remind everyone that it's never as easy as teleporting into the demon's bedroom at night and slicing his head off. Chances are that he/ she is always well protected in his keep and not easily accesible by roaming adventurers. By the time your average party gets to hunt down someone like Grazzt they are ususaly well below their max HP's and part of their spell capacity has been used up. In addition, it's largely up to the DM to determine how difficult it is for the party to acomplish what the they want. 

Anyone remember that letter to Forum in Dragon magazine all those years ago about the killer kobolds wiping the street with the PC's?


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *Given that PC's reach 20th level pretty fast, hell it can be only a couple of years in game time, I would think these "cosmic entities" would be a little more imposing.*




If that is what you want, use what we had before: unstatted demon lords.

Going above 20th level isn't even possible without a supplementary book (as others have pained to point out). BoVD is not an Epic Level supplement, it is a core supplement, and they are meant to be challenging to core characters.



> * It seems to me that a party would have cleaned their clocks long ago.   They could barely get work as gate guards in the city of Union out of the ELH!  *




Well, I think you all know how I feel about Union sentinels. Basically, it was obviously conceived someone as free uber-levels as you seem to be. You are both don't put 20th level in the proper perspective AFAIAC.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> *
> The loss of power of archfiend seems in line, IMHO, with the loss of power of deities, so that is, at least, consistent with itself.  *




Hehheee. Very true. 


I know WotC makes almost every book out of basis, that only core rules are used. But D&D 3rd has been around for quite a some time, and rule balance is not what it used to be.

But I don't mind that. What bothers be, is that IMO their power lv. is too low, when compared to Great Dragons or Solars, etc, especially if you follow ideas of WotC's Fight Club and give them character levels and thus up their CR.

Nah, my issue has a lot to do with feeling.

Maybe it is something similar I experienced a long time ago, I saw people playing clerics with higher wisdom stats, than their gods.

Or what I experience everytime, stats are given to movie/book characters. 

I just think, it would be cool, to see stats I can agree to and use without second thought, but I probably never will see such printed.

Everybody publishing wants to be in line with 'offical', and when path has been set...rest will follow.


Well, still, I wind up buying those books anyway, whine about them with my friends who mostly agree with me. And move to more important issues... like art.

Anyone else think Mystra in Faints and Avatars, looks like some 'goth' larp girl? (or whatever, that is in english).


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *Tavern Wench: "You boys got back here a lot sooner than we thought."
> 
> Fighter:  "Yeah, we thought we had to fight a great wyrm red dragon, but lucky for us, it was just Graz'zt." *




Exactly. 

And I though dragons were too disposable.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: Re: Graz'zt*



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *No matter which way you slice it Graz'zt got the shaft! *



They're all a little too weak for me.  But, since there are options for giving them more than just Quasi-divine status... assuming I'm understanding what I've read thus far...


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

Numion said:
			
		

> *If the demon / devil princes' CRs had been pushed to the 40+ range they wouldn't be very usable with the core books. As it is now, they can be possibly used as major enemies to battle for non-epic groups. This is right IMO, because BoVD doesn't require the ownership of ELHB to use. *



They'd be as usable as some lesser gods and most demigods.  

I think, as someone else already pointed out, that this has to do with how one sees the archfiends... as well as one's cosmological perception.  

Some of you may have seen my Lords of the Nine which are about as powerful as lower-level Intermediate gods without being gods.  This is precisely the kind of thing I wanted... beings one could fight if they were extremely high-level despite the fact that I don't typically play at such high levels.  Personally, for me it's a cosmological issue.  If a being rules an entire layer (or in the case of Asmodeus, an entire plane), a CR under 50 makes no sense whether or not one considers them gods.  

IMO, most of the Lords of the Nine and the Demon Princes should be higher level challenges than the toughest standard monster and should be well above the toughest non-divine epic monster.  They should rank in power with gods, even if they technically are not gods.  If the book allows gamers to increase their power, great.  If not, I will still buy the book, using my own stats (in which the Lords are between 50 and 60 CR) with some modifications that take advantage of the BoVD Feats, magic, and disciple class.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Given that PC's reach 20th level pretty fast, hell it can be only a couple of years in game time, I would think these "cosmic entities" would be a little more imposing.   It seems to me that a party would have cleaned their clocks long ago.   They could barely get work as gate guards in the city of Union out of the ELH!  *





Well I think the default assumption in BoVD is that you're not going to be using the ELH.  If you are, it provides guidelines to bump up the power of the "cosmic entities."  Sounds like a good compromise to me.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Going above 20th level isn't even possible without a supplementary book (as others have pained to point out*




Not for levels, but this doesn't hold true for monster HD.

It's not characters I compare these critters with, but monsters in monster manual, and how high they can rise.

How likely you think 20th level pc-party finnish off, that 66th HD solar, for example. Advanced HD rules should not be forgotten, when creating monsters within core rules.

This has nothing to do with how high level games I run, but rather with consistancy of cosmos on stat-level. If anything should be greatest example of power-competion winners from mortal creatures/presented core-outsiders, they should be these kind of named lords of evil, or at least they should be equeal to good/neutral ones of same rank.

I don't think demon lords should have made any more easily winnable, than advanced solars, titans or greatest dragons. In fact, they should be IMO more powerful, or at least equal to the most powerful. PC:s are not competition they have survided against all their existance.

If one day, I will actually run high level game, where players go to face these lords of evil, I want it to be special. Such critters do not have history of baing casually slain my mortals or demi-immortals.  Not just 'special dungeon', creature itself should be the 'greatest end-of level monster'. Otherwise it's going to be disappointment.

There should really be reason, pc:s are driven to quest to collect some artifact weapon/other helpful stuff, and make those quests,  because merely being high-level (min-maxed or no), is not enough.

Abyss/Hell is not mortal realms where king rules by merit of status, there status must be held my equal amount of power, or creature just ends up being assassinated by it's own 'loyal' followers.

Now, who would follow 'a loser', who might be wiped out by four magic-item wielding mortals.

Sure dm can make even 1/2 HD kobold dangerous, but that is far from my point.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

> Going above 20th level isn't even possible without a supplementary book (as others have pained to point out). BoVD is not an Epic Level supplement, it is a core supplement, and they are meant to be challenging to core characters.




Is it unreasonable then to expect the two books to at least be compatible?


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Is it unreasonable then to expect the two books to at least be compatible? *




They are! Just add more levels on to your demon lords, or advance them by hit dice, or whatever, and give them some epic feats.  Seems simple enough to me.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

Not every demon-lord and arch-devil in the BoVD has a SR equal to his CR + 13.  I still need to know Orcus's actual spell resistance.  I also have two other questions:

1.  What is Orcus's Armor class?
2. What is Orcus's Hit points?

I am confused about how specific the BoVD is when it comes to modifying the demon-lords and archdevils into divine powers.  Does the book give specific stats for Orcus as a divine power, or for Asmodeus?  Does the DM have to use abstract rules presented in the BoVD to modify these demonlords himself?  I know that a playtest version of the BoVD Asmodeus was floating around the internet several months ago, and that playtest version had Asmodeus written as a normal archdevil, and as a divine power.

You see, my gaming group has considered Orcus our number one enemy for over 11 years now.  Our characters are from level 22 to 30, and we are using the Epic Rules.  I am concerned that Orcus will not be a challenge for an epic level group, and my gaming group is VERY hesitant to modify any official NPC.

In the Forgotten Realms, Orcus is considered a god (a lesser god IIRC), so he should be tougher in the Forgotten Realms than in other places.  I hope the BoVD has specific stats for Orcus as a divine power.


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *Not for levels, but this doesn't hold true for monster HD.*




D&D is not a game of solars against evil. D&D is a game of mortals against evil.



> *
> I don't think demon lords should have made any more easily winnable, than advanced solars, titans or greatest dragons. In fact, they should be IMO more powerful, or at least equal to the most powerful.*




If you want to put them so far beyond player capability, then you don't really need stats for them. The book has stats for players who will use them.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If that is what you want, use what we had before: unstatted demon lords.
> 
> ...




Nobody in my game is over 9th at the moment, and I don't plan on using the ELH if they get that far.  My question about thier power level is more of a conceptual thing.  I just thought they would be more powerful, even if they weren't going to use epic stuff.  These guys rule planes of existance ya know.  I'm certainly not bashing the book.  Just my thoughts.


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *Is it unreasonable then to expect the two books to at least be compatible? *




How are they not compatible? They both use the same baseline rules. It's just that the BoVD does not assume you have or will be using the ELH -- which is the current norm for WotC books (I think WOtC are being a bit conservative with this line, but at least they included psionic creatures in the MMII...)


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *I am confused about how specific the BoVD is when it comes to modifying the demon-lords and archdevils into divine powers.  Does the book give specific stats for Orcus as a divine power, or for Asmodeus?  Does the DM have to use abstract rules presented in the BoVD to modify these demonlords himself?  I know that a playtest version of the BoVD Asmodeus was floating around the internet several months ago, and that playtest version had Asmodeus written as a normal archdevil, and as a divine power.
> 
> You see, my gaming group has considered Orcus our number one enemy for over 11 years now.  Our characters are from level 22 to 30, and we are using the Epic Rules.  I am concerned that Orcus will not be a challenge for an epic level group, and my gaming group is VERY hesitant to modify any official NPC.
> 
> In the Forgotten Realms, Orcus is considered a god (a lesser god IIRC), so he should be tougher in the Forgotten Realms than in other places.  I hope the BoVD has specific stats for Orcus as a divine power. *



If I've been reading and understanding the reviews thus far, it sounds like there are suggestions for Domain access for these guys.  I would assume, then, that if this is the case, they can, in certain situations, grant spells.  I would imagine that the book will have stats for the non-divine and quasi-divine archfiends, and then one could create a god from that information... since quasi-divine beings don't provide spells to worshippers.

Of course, I couuld be wrong.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *my gaming group is VERY hesitant to modify any official NPC.*



Why?  This would seem to be the core problem.  What's so sacrosanct about an official NPC?

If anything I'd think official NPCs are the most in need of alteration, since players can get their hands on the stats and make assumptions their characters have no way of making.


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *Nobody in my game is over 9th at the moment, and I don't plan on using the ELH if they get that far.*




Okay, that leads me to beleive that your objections lie in realms more esoteric and practical, and leads me to beleive that you wouldn't be using the stats in the book in either case.



> *My question about thier power level is more of a conceptual thing.  I just thought they would be more powerful, even if they weren't going to use epic stuff.  These guys rule planes of existance ya know.  I'm certainly not bashing the book.  Just my thoughts. *




And we are back to "doesn't 20th level mean anything anymore?" You wouldn't think the power of a 24th -- or 32nd -- level character sufficient to be a planar ruler? I would.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *If you want to put them so far beyond player capability, then you don't really need stats for them. The book has stats for players who will use them. *



In the same way there are stats for gods?  They qualify as being "far beyond player capability" in many minds and there are still stats for them.

I think it's very possible to have these beings as epic level entities that are god-like, but not necessarily gods (although I don't agree with this position personally).  And, let's face it, this book _was_ written with ELH in mind; Bruce Cordell and Monte Cook admitted as much.  Technically, a party of four 32nd level characters should be able to beat Asmodeus with little fuss and that just makes no sense.  

No, these guys should have a higher CR than all beings in the ELH... Heck, Elminister has a CR higher than most of these guys, and that's ridiculous!


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> D&D is not a game of solars against evil. D&D is a game of mortals against evil.
> 
> If you want to put them so far beyond player capability, then you don't really need stats for them. The book has stats for players who will use them. *




So, you are happy when monster are not beyond player capability. But player capablity has much to do what kind of equimpment they have, what kind of classes dm allow, etc.

No, D&D is game not a game of solars against evil, neither it is game about god-slaying mortals, but it can be made game of either.

And since, within core rules exist such powerful critters with advanced HD, your 'player capability' is pretty much beyond the issue.

Yep, I know they give us lords of evil to slay (by statting them so low, makes it pretty apperant), but they could have made them a bit more efficient monters, since such already exist within core rules.

I find it likely, that pc:s travelling all the way to low levels of Abyss to slay demon-lord, have slayed evil dragon terrorizing their some kingdom or somthing like that.

And I am feeling this challenge, that should be greater, is actually throwback.

Also, I don't see stats needed merely for player-centered events. Sometimes I need stats to see how monsters do agains each others. Players aren't everywhere, and while you don't seem to feel it nessecery, I actually use rules when deciding events player weren'´t involted.

And if winning something is beyond players, merely by their normal means, it gives reason to do quests to make it possible and gain those means, and more logic to, why ancient evil finally meets it's end at the hands of mortal heroes.

Oh, and feel truly sorry for those playing evil characters. They might want to slay that 66th Solar (whatever dm names it),
while good heroes only have to worry about Graz'zt".  

And while you don't need stats, doen't mean I wouldn't.


Though, it's not a problem for me to advance them and stuff, but lack of power usually also accounts for lack of original special abilites, and I have invent them myself.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

I am not going into why my gaming group only uses official stats for NPCs.  That is a topic that belongs in another discussion.  I just hope that the BoVD either provides stats for divine versions of these demonlords and archdevils, or it gives very specific details about how to modify these badboys.

From what I have read so far, the demonlords and archdevils in the BoVD are a joke to epic level characters.  That's perfectly fine if that is what WOTC intended, but if there is a way to find official divine versions of these guys, that will challenge Epic level groups, then I will do everything I can to find them.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *Technically, a party of four 32nd level characters should be able to beat Asmodeus with little fuss and that just makes no sense.*



You're tossing off, "a party of four 32nd level characters," pretty lightly.  That's 4 characters, each more powerful than whatever UberNPC people might like to complain about from any given setting.  There shouldn't be loads of 32nd level characters.

And I put it to you that if the CRs had been in the 40s, people would still be complaining.  Either about their being too weak still or about their being too powerful.

The beautiful thing about 3rd Edition is that it is so surpassingly easy to alter published material, that such complaints are pretty meaningless.

Again, it goes back to, "This book wasn't written with someone telepathically scanning my mind.  It wasn't to my precise specifications--damn them!"


----------



## der_kluge (Oct 8, 2002)

**yawn**

Am I the only one that is completely apathetic about this book?  I mean, Deities and Demigods - ooh, ooh - stats for gods that my group will never fight, nor ever meet.  How cool is that.  Now we get stats for Demons.

Really.  I thought this stuff was uber-cool when I was 12.  Now, I just think it's juvenile.  Don't get me wrong; if you think this stuff is cool - more power to you.  I'm not saying that you're juvenile for liking it, I'm just saying these kinds of rules do not interest me, whatsoever.  I can't imagine that I'm the only one with this position.

I don't need rules for possessions.  Isn't it enough to just say "this person is possessed".  It's worked fine for 25+ years.  Why define how that works now?  I don't understand.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *I am not going into why my gaming group only uses official stats for NPCs.  That is a topic that belongs in another discussion.*



It's actually extremely relevent to discerning whether or not you have a valid complaint, and thus germane to this discussion.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

*Re: *yawn**



			
				die_kluge said:
			
		

> *Am I the only one that is completely apathetic about this book?  I mean, Deities and Demigods - ooh, ooh - stats for gods that my group will never fight, nor ever meet.  How cool is that.  Now we get stats for Demons.
> 
> Really.  I thought this stuff was uber-cool when I was 12.  Now, I just think it's juvenile.  Don't get me wrong; if you think this stuff is cool - more power to you.  I'm not saying that you're juvenile for liking it, I'm just saying these kinds of rules do not interest me, whatsoever.  I can't imagine that I'm the only one with this position.
> 
> I don't need rules for possessions.  Isn't it enough to just say "this person is possessed".  It's worked fine for 25+ years.  Why define how that works now?  I don't understand. *



So, what's the point of your comments, if not to say that people who like it are juvinile?  To put everyone on notice that you're not interested?  Seems rather suspicious.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *....  but if there is a way to find official divine versions of these guys, that will challenge Epic level groups, then I will do everything I can to find them. *



Then you'll be spending a lot of time looking.  The only official stats so far will be those in the BoVD.  

If you're interested, you may consider checking out the stats that some people (myself included) have offered on these and the WotC boards.  While some might be perceived as wild, some are more in line with these guys truly being Epic.  The stats I created fall within the 50 to 60 CR range (although U_K thinks they're just gods without the name ).  

While I respect your groups convictions (I usually only use official material as well, particularly spells and magic-items), there are some decent unofficial adaptations out there.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> How are they not compatible? They both use the same baseline rules. It's just that the BoVD does not assume you have or will be using the ELH -- which is the current norm for WotC books (I think WOtC are being a bit conservative with this line, but at least they included psionic creatures in the MMII...) *




It is very clear that a consistent power curve is not assumed in both cases.  

Being mechanically compatible does not mean they are play compatible.

I agree with Meepo, that they can be adapted easily enough.  But that adapatation would be required to make them compatible.
If Grazz'zt is a basic challenge expected to only drain 20 to 25% of the resources for 4 L24 chars, he can't really be a true power of evil in a game compatible with the ELH.

These beings, by definition, are supposed to establish a benchmark in power.  The monster section in the ELH is not even comparable to some of these presented here.  So, clearly, the power level assumptions are not compatible.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *It is very clear that a consistent power curve is not assumed in both cases.*



But it would be impossible to present creatures that would be challenging to both epic characters and mortal characters.  That follows pretty much by the definition of the concepts.

So the question is, who do they write the book for?  The larger audience of non-epic groups, or the more rarified epic audience?

The conclusion is obvious.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

Aloïsius said:
			
		

> *Oh, and hello Craig !  *




Hey Aloïsius mate! 



			
				Aloïsius said:
			
		

> *So you're disappointed Thrin's great-uncle is merely CR 24 now  ? I guess that's indeed a bit humiliating. But where's the problem?*




Well I had already resigned myself to the fact that the Demon Princes and Arch-devils were going to be hovering around Challenge Rating 30.

I had already resigned myself that any divinity they possessed would need to be 'tacked on' afterwards. 

However, its a double slap in the face for the once proud Graz'zt to be reduced to abyssal punk.



			
				Aloïsius said:
			
		

> *I don't think your Odin, for example, is the one in D&Dg either...*




Admittedly this is even worse than the Odin fiasco.



			
				Aloïsius said:
			
		

> *The loss of power of archfiend seems in line, IMHO, with the loss of power of deities, so that is, at least, consistent with itself.*




But thats just it. Graz'zt is no longer consistent with the major Demon Princes!



			
				Aloïsius said:
			
		

> *Of course, that requires extra work for those who want cosmic beings with more grandeur; but in your case that work is already made, isn't it  ? *




Like I said, my complaint is not about the measure of power; but rather the relative measure of power. Graz'zt (if we use the parameters in the BoVD) should have been CR29.


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> In the same way there are stats for gods?  They qualify as being "far beyond player capability" in many minds and there are still stats for them.*




Which is ridiculous. The deity stats in DDG are a waste of space IMNSHO. Devil stats in BoVD, by way of contrast, are not.



> *
> And, let's face it, this book was written with ELH in mind;*[/qutoe]
> 
> Perhaps it was... that is why Asmodeus is there to be the final villain for your 28th level characters. That doesn't mean the book wasn't made to have "core appeal."
> ...


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *
> 
> It is very clear that a consistent power curve is not assumed in both cases.
> 
> ...





Well, basically you have to make one of three choices about your campaign world.

1)  Epic-level characters don't exist, and demon lords are extremely powerful.  CR 28 sounds good for this.

2)  Epic-level characters exist, and the demon lords are extremely powerful.  Quasi-divine sounds good here.

3)  Epic-level characters exist, and while the demon lords are powerful, there are much more powerful things out there.  CR 28 works here.

It seems pretty easy to pick one of the three and adjust the demon lord stats appropriately.  The default assumption is #1, which is the only safe one to assume unless you want to require the use of the ELH.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

Hi Psion mate! 



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I really have to ask what level games you run. 24-32 CRs aren't a challenge for you?*




I know this wasn't addressed at me; but I ain't even picking up any experience points for roughing up the Lords of the Nine*! 

...and those of you that know me know I ain't joking! 

*Incidently I estimate they would last about 3 rounds. 



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *If you hand out levels so readily that this CR is a pushover, I don't think the fault les with the book.*




I agree the fault doesn't lie with the book in this respect.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *Doesn't 20th level mean anything to anyone anymore? Sheesh... *




Apparently it means you can whip Graz'zt and be home in time for cornflakes.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *You're tossing off, "a party of four 32nd level characters," pretty lightly.  That's 4 characters, each more powerful than whatever UberNPC people might like to complain about from any given setting.  There shouldn't be loads of 32nd level characters.*



No, I don't think I am treating them lightly.  And I also don't agree that "there shouldn't be loads of 32nd level characters" when one takes epic levels into consideration -- something the designers of BoVD do.  The fact remains that this book does use ELH, although not officially, in much the same way _Call of Cthulu_ uses _Deities and Demigods_ for the Elder Gods and the Great Old Ones.  

As for 32nd level characters... a group of 32nd level characters would have a hard time beating a demigod, but will have no trouble routing Asmodeus.  Doesn't make sense to me.



			
				RobNJ said:
			
		

> *And I put it to you that if the CRs had been in the 40s, people would still be complaining.  Either about their being too weak still or about their being too powerful.*



Perhaps people would still complain.  I know I would primarily because I don't think Asmodeus, Demogorgon, et al. should have CR because they should be treated as gods or god-like.  

I have no problem with the manner in which WotC handled gods.  Initially, I was resistant to statted gods, but when I saw how they were handled, I was satisfied.  I am of the position that these entities should have been handled the same way... especially considering the precedent of 1ed, which the designers have been using since day one.



			
				RobNJ said:
			
		

> *The beautiful thing about 3rd Edition is that it is so surpassingly easy to alter published material, that such complaints are pretty meaningless.*



Agree with the first portion of your statement, but not with the last.  Yes, 3ed is very flexible and adaptable.  However, I do think that constructive criticism remains par for the course... especially when some of the decisions have been inconsistent.



			
				RobNJ said:
			
		

> *Again, it goes back to, "This book wasn't written with someone telepathically scanning my mind.  It wasn't to my precise specifications--damn them!" *



For some, this may be the case.  For others, and I suspect this is the situation with some people involved in this conversation, that's utter nonsense.  

As I've said, I, like many others initially disagreed with the direction WotC took with statting gods.  What we did see, however, makes sense and works well for many people.  Now, the same may happen with the arch-fiends once we all get to see it.  However, based upon what's been shared so far, many people want to share their position.  Nothing to do with meeting "precise specifications."


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *But it would be impossible to present creatures that would be challenging to both epic characters and mortal characters.  That follows pretty much by the definition of the concepts.
> 
> So the question is, who do they write the book for?  The larger audience of non-epic groups, or the more rarified epic audience?
> 
> The conclusion is obvious. *




I don't have any argument with that logic.

But that is simply a basis for WHY they are not compatible.  

I would prefer that they were compatible.  CR24 is not an OVERWHELMING challenge to L20 chars.  IMO, Grazz'zt should be.


----------



## Wolfen Priest (Oct 8, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *No, these guys should have a higher CR than all beings in the ELH... Heck, Elminister has a CR higher than most of these guys, and that's ridiculous! *




IMHO there is very little about Elminster that _is not_ ridiculous, but that's just me.   

Honestly, I don't think there are that many campaigns in the (real) world where characters even get to Epic levels.  It seems to me that if a campaign involves PC's destroying gods and super-powerful demonic beings in the first place, it may be about time to retire the party (or maybe just put it on hold) and start a new campaign.

Everything in D&D is so completely relative that arguing power-levels is altogether pretty pointless.  I mean, the characters gain power => the bad guys gain power, right?  I can see why it would be disappointing to many that the stats of these demonic powers are a little weak, but my best suggestion would be simply to limit PC experience-rates; the XP rules as written in the DMG are for more 'typical' playing groups who can only play once in a while.  If you are going for a long-term campaign and want it to end with a 'bang' (perhaps literally), then _slowly_ work them up to required level (which would probably be a few CR's lower than the BBEG in question) and subsequently have them fight him/her/it at the end.  Simple.  

If you don't think PC's should ever be fighting something this powerful, then don't use the stats.  Just say that Orcus is a divine being and he cannot be destroyed by mortals.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

I have started a new thread about whether official NPCs should be modified by a DM.  We can discuss that topic there.  I simply do not find it relevant for this discussion, and I will no longer discuss it here.  If you wish a response from me, you will have to ask for it at the link below, for I shall not post it on this thread.  Here is the link:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27021

What I am hoping people on this thread can help me figure out is, how specific is the BoVD when it comes to modifying the demonlords and archdevils?  How easy will it be to change the badboys into NPCs that can challenge an epic level party, or does the BoVD come with divine versions of these badboys that will already challenge an epic level party?  Someone earlier mentioned that the archfiends in the BoVD were written with epic level players in mind.  Is this true?  How can someone prove this?  They seem underpowered to me, but if the BoVD does a good job of providing divine power for these archfiends, then perhaps I can be convinced.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

Hi there RobNJ! 



			
				RobNJ said:
			
		

> *But it would be impossible to present creatures that would be challenging to both epic characters and mortal characters.  That follows pretty much by the definition of the concepts.*




Actually it is possible. You have deities for the epic challenges and avatars* for the tough mortal challenges.

*and I'm not talking about the pointless treatment of avatars in Deities & Demigods.



			
				RobNJ said:
			
		

> *So the question is, who do they write the book for?  The larger audience of non-epic groups, or the more rarified epic audience?
> 
> The conclusion is obvious. *




Actually the conclusion is that they should have made the stats for both as I explained above. Deities that can challenge epic PCs and Avatars that represent a challenge for high (though non-epic) level mortals.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *However, I do think that constructive criticism remains par for the course...*



It's not concstructive criticism.  The book is written.  There's no way you can help with the construction.

Furthermore, what you're in essence saying is, "This is how I wanted it to be," but that's not only not constructive criticism, it's not valid criticism.  If there had been some error, or problem with the book, it might be valid to say, "They made a mistake here."  Your complaints are with tone and preference and flavor, about creative decisions that were made that may be only relevent in specific to the campaign or campaigns you happen to run.  It has no applicability to the wider world.

It is not constructive, helpful, useful or enlightening to know that you would've liked divine archfiends.  Furthermore, by all accounts, the BoVD talks about making these characters divine, so what's there to complain about?

They chose to go a way you do not prefer.  What kind of constructive criticism can possibly be applied to this situation?  "Next time, do it more the way I would've liked it"?


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

> *
> As for 32nd level characters... a group of 32nd level characters would have a hard time beating a demigod, but will have no trouble routing Asmodeus. Doesn't make sense to me.
> *




From this statement, it's obviously not a matter of making sense. It's a matter of you not agreeing with the power assessment of the demon lords and arch devils in 3e, which is ultimately a personal issue.

It's perfectly consistent with the line that they have towed in 3e. They have made an effort to segragate deities from demon lords. It's not a move that I fall in line with in my campaign (I blur the line between deity and demon prince), but they are being self-consistant. Within the framework they have created for 3e, it does make sense.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Again, it goes back to, "This book wasn't written with someone telepathically scanning my mind.  It wasn't to my precise specifications--damn them!" *




No it's people who are giving thier opinions and reasons why this book may or may not meet thier groups needs.  Isn't that the purpose of this BB?   You don't seem to like critical posts very much, "What did you think they were going to read your mind?" seems to be a response you like to give.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *I don't have any argument with that logic.
> 
> But that is simply a basis for WHY they are not compatible.
> 
> I would prefer that they were compatible.  CR24 is not an OVERWHELMING challenge to L20 chars.  IMO, Grazz'zt should be. *



Let's take this back a bit: do you think there's a way for Grazz'zt to be challenging to both 20th level characters and 32nd level characters?

I think the answer is obviously not.

So the only thing I can guess is that you're advocating that they rewrite the Epic Level Handbook or the core rules to deal with this one complaint?


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> Well, basically you have to make one of three choices about your campaign world.
> 
> 1)  Epic-level characters don't exist, and demon lords are extremely powerful.  CR 28 sounds good for this.
> ...




That is a fine.

All I asked was "Is it unreasonable then to expect the two books to at least be compatible?"

To which the reply came (not from you or RobNJ) that they were.  Obviously, that is not really correct.

The two of you have provided reasonable positions for why perhaps they should not be.  

As I said in my reply to Rob, I think that some of these entities should be beyond "mortal" heroes.  But I will agree that this is simply a point of view, and has nothing fundamentally correct about it.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Someone earlier mentioned that the archfiends in the BoVD were written with epic level players in mind.  Is this true?  How can someone prove this?
> 
> *





"Epic" means >20th level.  All of the archfiends are above CR 20, and thus suited for epic characters.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *No it's people who are giving thier opinions and reasons why this book may or may not meet thier groups needs.  Isn't that the purpose of this BB?   You don't seem to like critical posts very much, "What did you think they were going to read your mind?" seems to be a response you like to give. *



It's no more my only response to things than, "3E is bad at this," is yours.  I happen to be thoroughly fed up with people acting as though Wizards did something _wrong_ when they merely don't like what Wizards did for a reason of personal taste.  If you frame your comments in the context of personal taste, rather than trying to argue that Wizards made a mistake here, and did something objectively bad, then you'd not hear me complaining, I think.


----------



## Wolfen Priest (Oct 8, 2002)

When someone says "I'm disgusted with the way WotC presented the arch-demons in the BoVD, but I always insist on using 'offical' WotC stats, without variation" is a lot like saying, "All I ever eat when I go out for dinner is steak, but this restaurant always serves my steak forzen and raw; what gives?"

Simply *(a)* order something else (i.e., change the given stats and 'break' your rule), or *(b)* go to another restaurant/eat at home (i.e., don't even buy the book).


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *Let's take this back a bit: do you think there's a way for Grazz'zt to be challenging to both 20th level characters and 32nd level characters?
> 
> I think the answer is obviously not.
> 
> So the only thing I can guess is that you're advocating that they rewrite the Epic Level Handbook or the core rules to deal with this one complaint? *




That would be a rather gross extrapolation.

I do not think Grazz'zt should be challenging to L20 characters.

But all I am really saying is that if he is challenging to L20 chars in one book and would probably be challenging to much higher characters if presented in another book, then those two books are not compatible.

Is it a major problem that two official (non-core) D&D books are not compatible?  No, of course not.

Is it interesting and worthy of questioning?  I think so.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *That would be a rather gross extrapolation.*



It was intended to be, but I didn't understand your point at the time.  You were responding to someone who felt the same creature ought to be challenging to 2 characters that are 12 levels apart.  This is clearly off, even without the huge leap up from core levels to epic levels, and I don't know how anyone (not you, since we appear to share an opinion on this) could argue it.


----------



## Henry (Oct 8, 2002)

I am still unclear why one person should think Grazz't to be any greater or weaker in power than any other demon lord or devil prince.

In all the official stuff from years gone by, Grazz't was not as powerful as Demogorgon, and certainly was about as powerful as Fraz-Urb Luu (that demon-baboon prince)  Grazz't was not written as insanely physically powerful; Grazz't was instead a prince of deception. 

Who were the insanely powerful ones? Orcus and Demogorgon. These two were to each other what Asmodeus and Mephistopheles were to each other - the head Bottom-Feeders in the Pond of Evil.

The use of one product's rules in another is a different discussion entirely - suffice it to say that WotC's official stance is to NEVER assume that a gamer has one certain product, and do not make content from another book dependent on content the gamer may not have. I for one prefer this policy, though I understand others do not. In my opinion, it is far better to add Epic levels or Divine ranks to the demons, than to assume that all gamers want it that way.

This is a major sticking point: _WotC's and Monte Cook's vision is one of many; there are other ways to portray the Demon Princes and Devils, and not all people will be satisfied with the vision that WotC presents._

--------------------------
On a side note:
In fact, not to offend Greymarch or any others in any way, but I think it would be a really good discussion topic, to discuss why some gaming groups demand official stats from the parent company, while some groups do not. Such a discussion would also tie in with why some gamers feel that some products are unnecessary, such as rules for vile actions, rules for naval and mass combat, rules for playing out diplomacy, etc. What's official, and why do we care? (or not care?)

After all, this topic of "official rules" sometimes splits the gaming community right down the middle! An honest yet peaceable discussion might be very helpful in understanding.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *It's not concstructive criticism.  The book is written.  There's no way you can help with the construction.
> 
> Furthermore, what you're in essence saying is, "This is how I wanted it to be," but that's not only not constructive criticism, it's not valid criticism.  If there had been some error, or problem with the book, it might be valid to say, "They made a mistake here."  Your complaints are with tone and preference and flavor, about creative decisions that were made that may be only relevent in specific to the campaign or campaigns you happen to run.  It has no applicability to the wider world.
> 
> ...




Indeed the book is written.  Quite a few books have been written and most, if not all, of them have errata based upon things people have come across.  A few even include variant optional rules for gamers.  I suspect that constructive criticism played a role.

As for whether it has application to the greater world or not, it could be argued that most of the comments on this topic have no greater application.  However, that's irrelevent; if people want to share their positions and offer advice for potential (however unlikely) future adjustments, what's wrong with that?

With regards to discussions about making them divine, I've already conceded that being the case...  I just don't think that the decision to do this, from what I've seen and heard thus far, goes far enough.  

And a word on criticism.  Constructive criticism can be applied to a completed task.  Writers learn from this form of criticism all the time, and use it for future projects... some of which are related to the project to which the criticism initially referred.  Further, criticism, by its nature, is always going to be somewhat subjective as well as objective when it comes to crafts or artistic endeavours.  There's no escaping that.  Just a note.


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *To which the reply came (not from you or RobNJ) that they were.  Obviously, that is not really correct.*




Based on the position that an Epic Level character should not surpass a demon lord in power. That is not the same as saying it is not compatible. That is just you telling us where you think the appropriate level of challenge for a demon lord is.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> An 18th level mage can cast wish multiple times a day, but 32nd level characters should, theoretically, be able to face 128 such wizards.
> *




Yep, in theory, but he can use up to 17 000 to 34 000 exp before dropping a level (which is not allowable) and each wish eats up 5000 exp or more.

However, that theory about being able to face 128 such wizards at the same time (or at the same day, for that matter), and have equal changes of winning (or even changes at winning), is quite impossible within rules.

However, thats way to tell, how hard it is to gain levels at the high ends. Or way to say, that CR system is broken at highter levels.

18th level is huge, 20th more so, over that almost unheard of IMO. For humanoids, that is.

But, we are speaking of mortals here. Immortal monsters don't have same limitations.

Why people so lightly use idea of 32th, is because they arent't really THAT much more powerful, than 20th level characters.

And depending on what books have been used, or even what core classes have been used, 20th levels character have quite different strengts and weaknesses. Even different power-levels. And in some cases (if prestige class min-maxing was not the issue), it's just because they are strong at diffrent situations.

However, I am clad they didn't use epic rules, since IMO they are crappy. But they aren't now consistant even with MM power levels, and I expected them to be in line with most powerful Solars.

Oh, and Graz'zt got shaft indeed, compared to his fellow demon lords.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

Hello again Psion mate! 



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *Which is ridiculous. The deity stats in DDG are a waste of space IMNSHO. Devil stats in BoVD, by way of contrast, are not.*




I agree that the deity stats in D&Dg were badly done.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *Would you listen to yourself! That's four 32nd level characters. THIRTY SECOND LEVEL. That's "phenomenal cosmic power." That's Hercules and Modru... and beyond. THIRTY SECOND LEVEL is NOTHING to trifle with. That's huge.*




I agree. Thats pretty much going to be the toughest bunch of characters on any given planet...but not in the planes themselves.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *An 18th level mage can cast wish multiple times a day, but 32nd level characters should, theoretically, be able to face 128 such wizards.*




Unless the official Challenge Rating system broke down at that level and 32nd-level characters were more akin to about 16 18th-level characters. 



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *It's perfectly consistent with the line that they have towed in 3e. They have made an effort to segragate deities from demon lords. It's not a move that I fall in line with in my campaign (I blur the line between deity and demon prince), but they are being self-consistant. Within the framework they have created for 3e, it does make sense. *




Not quite. Iuz (Dragon #294) is vastly more powerful than his father Graz'zt - representative of a ridiculous power swing from 1st Ed. 

I estimate Iuz is at least CR37.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> From this statement, it's obviously not a matter of making sense. It's a matter of you not agreeing with the power assessment of the demon lords and arch devils in 3e, which is ultimately a personal issue.
> 
> It's perfectly consistent with the line that they have towed in 3e. They have made an effort to segragate deities from demon lords. It's not a move that I fall in line with in my campaign (I blur the line between deity and demon prince), but they are being self-consistant. Within the framework they have created for 3e, it does make sense. *




Yes, it is a matter of "making sense" when one considers the fact that Asmodeus is a planar ruler.  As a planar ruler, I would expect him to be of greater power than a demigod, lesser god, or intermediate god.  Beyond that, well....

No, they are not being consistent.  If they were, Lolth should have been a Demon Prince along with Demogorgon and Orcus _or_Demogorgon and Orcus should be Lesser or Intermediate gods with Lolth (rather than what appears to be a quasi-copout).  A primary motivation Monte Cook and the designers had with this was to let people have an easier time beating up on the Lords of the Nine and Demon Princes like one could in 1ed.  Although Upper Krust and I don't agree with the specifics on this, we do agree that it would have been fine to have these guys as full-fledged divine beings with avatars that could be beaten.  Thus, epic level and strong lower level characters could have their cake and eat it too.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

Just because a monster is above CR 20 does not make it a challenge for epic level groups.

Check out the MM2 and the ELH.  Take a CR 28 from the MM2, and run it against an epic level party.  Now take a CR28 from the ELH, and run it against an epic level party.  Creatures from the MM2 cannot even begin to compare with creatures from the ELH.  The monsters from the ELH are much more difficult, even though they might have the same CR as a monster from the MM2.  If I may steal from George Orwell, to put it simply: "not all CRs are created equal, some CRs are greater than others."

They should have put specific stats in the BoVD for normal versions of the archfiends, and specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends, instead of just giving us recommendations for how a DM can change them.  Then, the archfiends would have been useful to regular campaigns, and epic level campaigns.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *As for whether it has application to the greater world or not, it could be argued that most of the comments on this topic have no greater application.  However, that's irrelevent; if people want to share their positions and offer advice for potential (however unlikely) future adjustments, what's wrong with that?*



Nothing, as long as you cop to its being about your particular tastes, rather than some error with the game.  There's a vast chasm of difference between the two.  I submit that your arguments on this thread so far--until they were challenged--focused on an objective failure of the book rather than your own preferences.  Or you attempted to mask your preferences as absolute failings in the book.

I find _expecting_ broadcast material to conform to your preferences (rather than _wishing_ it had in a public forum) to be problematic, to put it mildly.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *They should have put specific stats in the BoVD for normal versions of the archfiends, and specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends, instead of just giving us recommendations for how a DM can change them.  Then, the archfiends would have been useful to regular campaigns, and epic level campaigns. *



Should have. Should have.  They should have put out a book to your specifications, you mean?  There is no "should" here, palie.  Seriously.  You want divine archfiends, that's just fine.  But WotC didn't fail by not putting them in.

I mean it's like me saying, "They _should_ have stretched out the races sections in The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting to 1 page on each sub-race."  I would expect people to deride me for saying that.  My particular tastes aren't what these books are written for.  I'd _like_ to see a lot more detail on races, but it is completely unreasonable to _expect_ that my whims will be catered to.

Why is this so hard to understand?


----------



## herald (Oct 8, 2002)

I'm kinda surprised at the fact that if people aren't happy with the fact that their favorite Demon or Devil isn't quite the CR that they like, maybe they should consider that's a "Raw" stat. It really shouldn't reflect what the encounter would be. 

After all, It's not like any of these bad guys are going to meet you toe to toe alone. And its not like there going to meet you in a place that's not prepared to give them an advantage. So It would appear to me that by using the "raw CR" is a bad benchmark of how an encounter would go. 

As a matter of fact I imagine that a game master might want to pour over "Strongholder's Guidebook" to make sure that the Bad Guy has all the advantages when the hero's come a'knocking. After all, these guys have unlimited time, and practically unlimited resources and Man(fiendish)power. Some of thier strongholds are going to rate in the billions of gp. The encounter CR to go up against any of these guys should go up by half if not double the CR they normally have. 

IMHO, when anything is stated out, I consider it plain vanilla, and that I'm supposed to choose how many and how much added flavor I want.

Or am I the only one who feels this way?


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *Should have. Should have.  They should have put out a book to your specifications, you mean?  There is no "should" here, palie.  Seriously.  You want divine archfiends, that's just fine.  But WotC didn't fail by not putting them in.
> 
> I mean it's like me saying, "They should have stretched out the races sections in The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting to 1 page on each sub-race."  I would expect people to deride me for saying that.  My particular tastes aren't what these books are written for.  I'd like to see a lot more detail on races, but it is completely unreasonable to expect that my whims will be catered to.
> 
> Why is this so hard to understand? *




Its so hard for you to understand, because you are FLAT-OUT WRONG.  

We are discussing the BoVD, and what makes it good, and what makes it bad.  It is bad that they did not include specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends.  WOTC did fail by not making a version of the archfiends that are ELH worthy.  The book would have greater value if the archfiends worked for both normal campaigns and ELH.  Now that is EASY to understand, and everyone understands it.


----------



## herald (Oct 8, 2002)

Rob, you are always one step ahead of me and always take the words right out of my mouth.


----------



## Celebrim (Oct 8, 2002)

It seems to me that there is a lot of complaining going on about really trivial things.   If the arch-fiends were presented as CR 40 foes, then there stats would merely be an abstraction intended to impress people who have yet to realize that the DM can make foes of any CR quite readily.   'Ewww wow, look how tough Orcus is.', is a state of a very limited imagination, because for any given monster A with finite stats you can always propose monster B that is much tougher and it is entirely subjective when tough becomes too tough and someone has started bing cheesy.

How many games out there actually need CR 40 villians?  And, if they are to be CR 40 villians, surely they need to be created with Epic Feats and the like which require that the reader have the ELH in order to understand what he reads.   

I think it is better that the arch-fiends are presented as foes that are not so far outside the needs of most campaigns that the majority of campaigns which actually use them are poorly run Monte Haul types.   That doesn't do the reputation of the Arch-Fiends any favors either, for those of you who seem to place the reputation of the various demons and devils as kick-butt admirable worshipable beings as highest priorities.

It is not entirely unreasonable to suggest that an arch-fiend be no personally tougher than a Solar.  Certainly, in thier original conception, Solars were no more common than arch-fiends, and can be seen as thier opposing force.  And in any event, for the rare few that feel the need for CR 40, or CR 60, or CR 100 (or whatever) Asmodeous for whatever reason (look how tough my arch-fiends are! my epic level NPC's are bigger than your epic level NPC's!) you can certainly advance them as easily as you advance any other monster.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *...I would expect people to deride me for saying that. *




I think most poeple would just take it as your opinoin and treat it as such.   But after the way you got worked up in the anti-BOVD threads I should have expected this.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 8, 2002)

Hi Henry! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *I am still unclear why one person should think Grazz't to be any greater or weaker in power than any other demon lord or devil prince.*




You're joking right!?!? 

Graz'zt IS the big boy on the block! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *In all the official stuff from years gone by, Grazz't was not as powerful as Demogorgon,*




Lets get the 1st Ed. stats up here right now and lets throw down monkey boy!

I'll slice that maroon baboon to peices!



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *and certainly was about as powerful as Fraz-Urb Luu (that demon-baboon prince) *




That winged king-kong wannabe is not a top tier demon monarch - close, but no cigar.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Grazz't was not written as insanely physically powerful; Grazz't was instead a prince of deception.*




Don't be quoting any of that 2nd Ed. jive y'hear!



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Who were the insanely powerful ones? Orcus and Demogorgon.*




...and Graz'zt...and Zuggtmoy.

Off the top of my head from Graz'zt's Monster Manual II (1st Ed.) entry:

"...a dedicated foe of both Demogorgon and Orcus..."

It does not read '...cowers behind his lamia and succubi when Orcus and Demogorgon call him out to play...'



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *These two were to each other what Asmodeus and Mephistopheles were to each other - the head Bottom-Feeders in the Pond of Evil.*




I haven't heard this much jive since National Lampoons Airplane.

In Monster Manual 2 (1st Ed.) Graz'zt is valued as worth more XP than any other Demon Prince/Arch-Devil in that book except Pazuzu (the enigmatic proto-demon)!

That means more than Mephistopheles and more than Fraz-Urb'luu and practically double both Belial and Mammon!

If we compare things to the 1st ed. XP values then Baalzebul and Orcus are roughly comparable to Graz'zt with Demogorgon and Asmodeus somewhat out in front - however those figures don't seem consistent with the stats since they have Juiblex equal to Mephistopheles and Yeenoghu surpassing him. As such its a safe bet the Monster Manual 1 XP totals for unique beings (given in the Dungeon Masters Guide at the time) are about 10,000 XP heavy.

As such the most powerful should be Demogorgon; Asmodeus; Graz'zt and Pazuzu.

Followed by Orcus; Baalzebul; Mephistopheles and Fraz-Urb'luu.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *The use of one product's rules in another is a different discussion entirely - suffice it to say that WotC's official stance is to NEVER assume that a gamer has one certain product, and do not make content from another book dependent on content the gamer may not have. I for one prefer this policy, though I understand others do not. In my opinion, it is far better to add Epic levels or Divine ranks to the demons, than to assume that all gamers want it that way.*




Yet Call of Cthulhu D20 has divine power entities without needing Deities & Demigods or the Epic Level Handbook.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *This is a major sticking point: WotC's and Monte Cook's vision is one of many; there are other ways to portray the Demon Princes and Devils, and not all people will be satisfied with the vision that WotC presents.. *




Low power is one thing; relative power is quite another.


----------



## Grazzt (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Its so hard for you to understand, because you are FLAT-OUT WRONG.
> 
> We are discussing the BoVD, and what makes it good, and what makes it bad.  It is bad that they did not include specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends.   *




Not bad at all. Look in DDG. Look in Defenders of the Faith. It explicity states the the devils and demon princes/lords are NOT gods. Period. This is core stuff. 

I know that Orcus and some of the others are gods in FR (mentioned in the FR god book), but FR isn't core. According to the core rules, as I said, the devils and demons are not divine beings. Therefore, why would WotC bother wasting time and space to stat them as divine beings when they are not divine at all (in the Core rules)?


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *Its so hard for you to understand, because you are FLAT-OUT WRONG.*



This doesn't have much to do with the quote you replied to.



> *We are discussing the BoVD, and what makes it good, and what makes it bad.  It is bad that they did not include specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends.*



Correction: you don't like that they didn't include specific stats for divine versions of the archfiends.  If archfiends were improperly balanced for their alleged CRs, or if there was a missing page for one of the archfiends, etc., those would be bad.  As it stands what we're left with is, "This is the way I want it, and it's not that way, so I'm going to stamp my feat and scream like a 2 year old."



> *WOTC did fail by not making a version of the archfiends that are ELH worthy.*



No they did not fail.  If they intended to make a version of the archfiends that were ELH worthy, and the fiends presented weren't, then they would have failed.  Since that was not their intent, and since they didn't attempt to do it, they can't be said to have failed.

I have never tried to box professionally.  Does that mean I lost a lot of boxing matches?



> *The book would have greater value if the archfiends worked for both normal campaigns and ELH.*



Perhaps.  Or perhaps doing so would've resulted in something else being pushed out of the book.  Or perhaps lots of people would be here, complaining about how you "have to" buy the ELH to use the BoVD.  Correction: would be.  Not perhaps.



> *Now that is EASY to understand, and everyone understands it. *



Except everyone doesn't agree with  you.  Surely that belies this point.

Despite my being correct here, I wouldn't say that everyone understands it.  For example: you--clearly--do not.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

herald said:
			
		

> *Rob, you are always one step ahead of me and always take the words right out of my mouth. *



Why thank you, sir, but I think the points you made were vital as well.  That's not just pablum, either.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I think most poeple would just take it as your opinoin and treat it as such.*



If I had said that they screwed up by not publishing a book to my particular designs?  Hell, they ought to deride me for it.  It's a laughable position.



> *But after the way you got worked up in the anti-BOVD threads I should have expected this.  *



Perhaps you'd like to back up this poorly excecuted flame with a specific explanation of what you mean?


----------



## kenjib (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *Let's take this back a bit: do you think there's a way for Grazz'zt to be challenging to both 20th level characters and 32nd level characters?
> 
> I think the answer is obviously not.
> 
> So the only thing I can guess is that you're advocating that they rewrite the Epic Level Handbook or the core rules to deal with this one complaint? *




Actually,  all WotC needs to do is put out a web enhancement for the Epic Level Handbook with these guys statted somewhere around CR 50 and call it a day.  I think it's a good idea, myself.  I think the lower CR demon/devil lords are very useful, as would be the proposed higher level ones.  Why not have two stat sets?


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *Nothing, as long as you cop to its being about your particular tastes, rather than some error with the game.  There's a vast chasm of difference between the two.  I submit that your arguments on this thread so far--until they were challenged--focused on an objective failure of the book rather than your own preferences.  Or you attempted to mask your preferences as absolute failings in the book.
> 
> I find expecting broadcast material to conform to your preferences (rather than wishing it had in a public forum) to be problematic, to put it mildly. *



Well, I fully admit that my method of expressing myself assumes that I'm right but reasonable.  I don't apologize for that, but I can see that as being the inference people receive.

However, I do believe that WotC is not being consisent in the manner in which these characters have been handled.  There really is no way around that.  If Lolth is a goddess, then these characters should be as well.  And, I also believe that on its face, they are not high level enough because ELH and DDG were both taken into accoun in creating their stats (along with other elements of the book).  They have lower CRs than Behemoths!  It doesn't add up.  I think this is an objective failure of the book that in this case also parallels with my personal preferences (as opposed to my position on DDG, in which I disagreed with the decision to stat gods, but found the end result satisfactory).  Believe me, I am not going to mask anything when it comes to expressing my opinion.

And, I never said the book was an absolute failure.  I've said numerous times that I respect what Monte Cook has produced, and usually like it as well.  I just don't agree with this issue... one that is of importance to me.


----------



## Psion (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Krusty wrote:_
> *I agree that the deity stats in D&Dg were badly done.*




I don't think they are badly done so much as _useless_. If you ever need to go toe to toe with a deity, you sure can use those stats. But not many people do so enough to make it worthwhile to have a "deity monster manual."



> _The Serge wrote_
> * Yes, it is a matter of "making sense" when one considers the fact that Asmodeus is a planar ruler. As a planar ruler, I would expect him to be of greater power than a demigod, lesser god, or intermediate god.
> *




What you would "expect" is not the determiner of what "makes sense". There is no factor anywhere other than your personal preference that obligates planar rulers to be bona fide deities.



> *No, they are not being consistent. If they were, Lolth should have been a Demon Prince along with Demogorgon and Orcus orDemogorgon and Orcus should be Lesser or Intermediate gods with Lolth*




Wrong. That is _not_ inconsistant within the scope of 3e. They decided to cleft demons from deities a long time ago and stuck with that decision. Again, not a decision I agree with, but they are applying it consistantly.

"The way things were in 2e" is not a determiner of what makes sense. It's just a determiner of the way things were in 2e.


----------



## Urklore (Oct 8, 2002)

In the lastest Dungeon Magazine, in the Book of Vile Darkness adventure, one of the NPCs is a Half-Dryad. What official source is that from?


----------



## herald (Oct 8, 2002)

*I know that Orcus and some of the others are gods in FR (mentioned in the FR god book), but FR isn't core. According to the core rules, as I said, the devils and demons are not divine beings. Therefore, why would WotC bother wasting time and space to stat them as divine beings when they are not divine at all (in the Core rules)?* 

This is a very good point. There are some solid differances in Core and FR. I seem to remember in Manual of the Planes words to the affect that if mutiple game worlds are going to be used, a game master would have to make a choice as if the god that shared the same name were infact the same being. 

My opinion is that since FR has a totally differant Cosmology that these beings, while alike in many ways are infact differant. FR is supposed to be a much more high magic game world so it would not be unreasonable to ramp up certain NPC's. 

IMHO though, that should be done in a FR materials, not BOVD.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

I think ol' Fraz-Urb'luu gets the shaft here.  He's got 233 hp for Cuthbert's sake!  He would wipe the floor with a punk like Orcus or Grazzt.  And if he ever finds his staff then there will be no hope for any of us!


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *Perhaps you'd like to back up this poorly excecuted flame with a specific explanation of what you mean? *



OUCH! Even from up here in the peanut gallery that one looked like it hurt.

*throws popcorn and shouts "We're number ONE!"*


----------



## Grazzt (Oct 8, 2002)

Something else to consider. Everyone (well not everyone) is complaining about the CRs being too low...blah blah blah. Or how Graz'zt can be beaten by a 20th-level or 24th-level or whatever party.

Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.

But, all smart demon princes and devils will NEVER be caught alone. Caught alone? Gate in/summon demons or devils. Teleport away. Send for help. Whatever.

The biggest thing about "Oh we whipped Orcus' ass in no time flat." Good for you. Now, if your DM played him anything like I've seen and read a lot of other DMs playing demon princes, dragons, etc. then he didn't play him to his fullest potential. He played him as just another monster. And that fault lies with the DM, not the designers.

As for the power levels in the BoVD. I see no real issues (to me anyway). I think they scale nicely with the other 3e stuff. They are not as powerful as gods (and they shouldn't be; they aren't gods). 

But the bottom line is this. Had WotC made them divine and godly, half the people would've been happy, the other half would've pissed and moaned about rules contradictions between the BoVD, DDG, and DotF. Same thing for the way they did them. Didnt make them divine, so half the people are happy, and half are screaming that they should be divine.

Why not take what was given, use it as a framework, and adjust it as you see fit for your campaign? That is what all the books are for anyway, right? If you dont like something, do your own version or change the existing one until you do like it. And remember, it is a game afterall, so what's the big deal. Screaming about how they should've done that or should've done this, doesn't really matter now. The book is out. Its done. Time to move on.


----------



## IceBear (Oct 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Yet Call of Cthulhu D20 has divine power entities without needing Deities & Demigods or the Epic Level Handbook.*




Just ignorant here (I haven't looked at the d20 CoC rules) but would those divine power entities break the established rules in D&D?  Since Monte wrote both the BoVD and d20 CoC, it would seem that it would have made sense for him to use the precedents that these CoC divine beings set for the demon princes, UNLESS, it would contradict some D&D specific rule/guideline.

IceBear


----------



## herald (Oct 8, 2002)

I may be wrong, but I think that Flexor is just being witty.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Based on the position that an Epic Level character should not surpass a demon lord in power. That is not the same as saying it is not compatible. That is just you telling us where you think the appropriate level of challenge for a demon lord is. *




Or that 3 different basic MM dragons should not be MORE powerful than not just " a demon lord", but a long established big boy on the block.

It is not "what I think" to say that Grazz'zt place in the power chain has been long established.   A CR24 does not conform to the place in the cosmos that he is supposed to take, when compared to monsters in the ELH.

And please don't tell me what I think, particularly when you have it wrong.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Low power is one thing; relative power is quite another. *




I agree. Hehe, it just a while back irrated me to no end how they rated Tharizdun (potential misspelling here, but anyway).

After all he was Greater God back in 1st edition Greyhawk box, yep and I know the reasons, but I don't have to agree on something after-written. 

Now, forgive following sarcastic theory:  

I personally think part of Graz'zt got shaft is because he is more 'attractive' to human worship, than most demon lords. He is not fungish, slimish, undeadish, idiotic or otherwise disgusting most lower-planar beings of chaotic evil side are described.

And so, to make him 'less cool', he is made less powerful, so 'deceptive and plotting' one would loose to disgusting ones in battle and not only that, he tends to hide behind girls.

And, dadaa, curse of too much darkly coolness done away again.

Remember what happened to certain dark elf. 


heheee... I'm getting tired, it feels...


----------



## herald (Oct 8, 2002)

Grazzt said...

*Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.* 

Isn't that what i just said earlier....?

Man, I feel like I'm invisible some times.


----------



## Grazzt (Oct 8, 2002)

herald said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Isn't that what i just said earlier....?
> 
> Man, I feel like I'm invisible some times.  *




Most likely you said it before I did, yeah. Just reinforcing it because it makes sense.


----------



## herald (Oct 8, 2002)

No problem, I just couldn't resist.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Actually,  all WotC needs to do is put out a web enhancement for the Epic Level Handbook with these guys statted somewhere around CR 50 and call it a day.  I think it's a good idea, myself.  I think the lower CR demon/devil lords are very useful, as would be the proposed higher level ones.  Why not have two stat sets? *




I think this would be great idea.

Hopefully people at WotC come up with same idea. I think it would make many people happy.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

Urklore said:
			
		

> *In the lastest Dungeon Magazine, in the Book of Vile Darkness adventure, one of the NPCs is a Half-Dryad. What official source is that from? *




No source.  It is a half-fiend/half-NYMPH. (not dryad)

Simply take a nymph and add the half fiend template.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 8, 2002)

herald said:
			
		

> *I may be wrong, but I think that Flexor is just being witty. *




Sometimes it's hard to tell I know.  Look at my INT & WIS for christs sake!  Cut me some slack.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 8, 2002)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> *Sometimes it's hard to tell I know.  Look at my INT & WIS for christs sake!  Cut me some slack. *



*throws more popcorn*

Keep it up, guys! Great entertainment, this!

*whistles loudly*

(does anyone mind that I'm not contributing a blessed thing to this conversation?)

*startsThe Wave*


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Or that 3 different basic MM dragons should not be MORE powerful than not just " a demon lord", but a long established big boy on the block.
> *




Well, just wanted to clarify, that is my gripe. No epic, no divane, I understand why WotC chose not to go to those routes.

Demon lords used to be in par with more powerful solars and more powerful than dragons, expect for those like Tiamat and Bahamut. Losing in power to nameless basic monsters, make me doubt whatever their name as lords of hells or abyss is actually viable.

It would be interesting to why WotC made this choice. (I guess, it was to just make them more killable to high level core party).

One of my major issues, however goes to special abilities, and how boring and 'fastly invented' I suspect they are going to be. It is really easy to state 'this or that spell-ablity, like PHB spell', but making up unique abilities is harder, and it would be nice if WotC made them too. I just got feeling creators are being lazy when statting critters. I don't think this is so, it's just FEELING, I get.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> What you would "expect" is not the determiner of what "makes sense". There is no factor anywhere other than your personal preference that obligates planar rulers to be bona fide deities.*



Aside from precedence established in 1ed.  Precendence that 3ed has been using fairly consistently.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *Wrong. That is not inconsistant within the scope of 3e. They decided to cleft demons from deities a long time ago and stuck with that decision. Again, not a decision I agree with, but they are applying it consistantly.
> 
> "The way things were in 2e" is not a determiner of what makes sense. It's just a determiner of the way things were in 2e. *



No.

Lolth was a Demon Prince(ess) in 1ed who was also worshipped and ranked as a lesser goddess.  The same was the case with other Demon Princes and the Arch-Devils.  With 2ed, Lolth, Demogorgon, Baphomet, and others were Tanar'ri Lords and gods both.  Now, only Lolth retains the distinction of being a goddess while the others are not.  This is not consistent with the goal to return to the "better" elements of 1ed, which is largely what WotC has been doing.


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## Henry (Oct 8, 2002)

All right, let's THROW DOWN, KRUST-BOY!!!!




Seriously, I guess I need to dig back out my 1eMM2, and compare notes. I seem to recall it somewhat differently from what you describe - after all, Grazzt was introduced later than Orcus or Demogorgon, and I recall him as being somewhat lesser in power (although I do recall being impressed way back when that he had magic missile as a spell-like ability ) 

I also recall him as a prince of deception as early as his description in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (his original appearance); in fact, he and Iggwilv were the parents of Drelzna the Vampiress, was he not?? I believe he seduced Iggwilv, unless I am mistaken. Also, is Iuz not the progeny of Grazz't? If both are true, we get the picture of Grazz't as quite the "playah."  Therefore, I don't quote 1E, but 2E sources for my info.

Finally, I don't take XP as final measure of a creature's power in 1E or 2E.  This system was in some ways as screwy as the CR system, IMHO.

I will have to look back at raw stats between Orcus, Demogorgon, and Grazz't from the 1E sources, but I based my assertions on what I recalled of them. If I am wrong, I will admit it.

However, my supposition still stands: Monte's and WotC's vision can and WILL differ from ours. It doesn't matter in relative power, or in overall. This version of Grazz't will still mop the floor with any Core Rules mortals that come his way. With Orcus and Demogorgon, he might have to be a little more clever. 

Live long and prosper, my immortal-knowledgeable friend.


----------



## Zelda Themelin (Oct 8, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> Now, only Lolth retains the distinction of being a goddess while the others are not.  This is not consistent with the goal to return to the "better" elements of 1ed, which is largely what WotC has been doing. *




True, true. Lolth gets to remain goddess, because dark elves are so kewl. Thank Salvatore and fans for that.

Well, seriously, I think this is major reason, why Lolth remains goddess, she is used so much in books as such, and it would be hard to take it back.

Now, how many mentions of Orcus the god, you have seen in AD&D literature?

Well, I haven't.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 8, 2002)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> *Something else to consider. Everyone (well not everyone) is complaining about the CRs being too low...blah blah blah. Or how Graz'zt can be beaten by a 20th-level or 24th-level or whatever party.
> 
> Now, what are the chances your party is ever gonna catch them alone? Sure, one-on-one (party vs. demon prince) might be a slaughter in the party's favor (and depending on the power level, it should be. There is nothing that can't be killed at some point, if it is statted. Make them 90 HD? Big deal. A 120th-level party (which can be done with the ELH) will kill them. "If you stat it, they will kill it." If you want them unkillable, don't stat them.
> 
> ...



This would be an excellent point if one was willing to apply it to every other creature.  No one attempts this argument with Dragons, high level constructs, or Solars.


----------



## Henry (Oct 8, 2002)

I guess we should also ask the Demon Prince in Question:

_Oh, great Grazz't, scourge of Orcus and Demogorgon, and great playah of the universe, what do you think of what WotC did to you by making you a pale weenie compared to your mortal foes?_


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## Numion (Oct 8, 2002)

*What's the deal with Grazz't?*

Why's everyone trying to pump up his stats? Wasn't he a six-fingered humanoid, IIRC? Of course he should be afraid to go toe-to-toe with forty tons of great wyrm red dragon!


----------



## Claude Raines (Oct 8, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Yet Call of Cthulhu D20 has divine power entities without needing Deities & Demigods or the Epic Level Handbook.
> 
> *




But CoC d20 is a stand alone game. Investigators aren't supposed to be epic levels ever and if they do encounter the gods, it's only so they can go insane and die.

CoC does have deity stats, but they are an abbreviated version of what's in  Deities & Demigods. Furthermore, the gods aren't meant to be challenges to the players in any way, shape or form. But since they ARE gods, and are included for completeness, then they were stated as gods. The demon princes and arch-devils are not gods (by 3e canon) and shouldn't be statted as such. If you think these creatures are too weak, fine, but just because another game included diety stats and didn't need Deities & Demigods doesn't mean that accessories to D&D should do the same.


----------



## Xarlen (Oct 8, 2002)

Y'know, not to hijack the thread, but OTHER Then the demon/devil stats, are there any other comments on the book?

I mean, anything that just says 'Please, coach, lemme in the game! C'mon! Pleasepleaseplease!" Anything that screams gratitust, dumb, or stuck in there just to be there? Anything that seems really inventive and neat? 

As for the earlier statement on possession, well, I for one want information on it. I find it a real annoyance that the only creatures that can possess you are Ghosts, and that's it. C'mon, I was lead to believe demons and devils could possess stuff. So I want to know how much of an effect this has on the possessed individual. I want to know how to exercise the demons, what it does stat-wise to the character possessed. How to handle a PC getting possed, etc. I want *info*, dagnabbit.


----------



## kenjib (Oct 8, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *
> Demon lords used to be in par with more powerful solars and more powerful than dragons, expect for those like Tiamat and Bahamut. Losing in power to nameless basic monsters, make me doubt whatever their name as lords of hells or abyss is actually viable.
> *




One possible explanation (that has already been mentioned here):  If George Bush and Mike Tyson got in a fist fight, who would win?  Now as a seperate question, if George Bush and Mike Tyson both wanted each other dead, by any and all means, who would survive?



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> This would be an excellent point if one was willing to apply it to every other creature.  No one attempts this argument with Dragons, high level constructs, or Solars. *




Dragons and constructs just don't have the same political power that lords of an entire plane of hell or the abyss do.  However, I would argue that a solar advanced to 66 hit dice probably would.

I could see a group of adventurers squaring off against one of the most powerful dragons in the world and then, subsequently, a horrific demon lord.  No problem for me.


----------



## Xarlen (Oct 8, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *
> I could see a group of adventurers squaring off against one of the most powerful dragons in the world and then, subsequently, a horrific demon lord.  No problem for me. *




If that were true, then the Demon lords/archdevils should be on par with Solars. Since Solars can no doubt pull the heavenly weight, so too should the fiends, both political and combat wise.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

If WOTC had provided only epic level stats for the archfiends, all the low level players would have  complained.  Instead, WOTC provided regular stats, and now all the Epic level players are complaining (including me.)  WOTC should have provided specific stats for regular versions of the archfiends, and epic level (or divine level) stats for the archfiends, then everyone would have been happy.

WOTC does listen to its customers.  They provide errata, and new material via their website all the time.  For example, I led a charge on the official d20 Star Wars messageboards proclaiming that the dissipate energy feat was over-powered.  Just yesterday, WOTC finally admitted that the feat is too powerful, and they are changing it!  If we harp on WOTC about the lack of Epic level versions of the archfiends, I suspect they will supply epic level versions on their website eventually.


----------



## coyote6 (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *If WOTC had provided only epic level stats for the archfiends, all the low level players would have  complained.  Instead, WOTC provided regular stats, and now all the Epic level players are complaining (including me.)  WOTC should have provided specific stats for regular versions of the archfiends, and epic level (or divine level) stats for the archfiends, then everyone would have been happy.*




Nah. Most everyone would complain, because "they wasted all that space on those useless [epic/non-epic] stats!" It's a no-win situation for WotC.


----------



## kenjib (Oct 8, 2002)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If that were true, then the Demon lords/archdevils should be on par with Solars. Since Solars can no doubt pull the heavenly weight, so too should the fiends, both political and combat wise. *




Aren't they?  Solar is CR 19 with 22 HD.  With 66 HD he is CR 23.  That's pretty close to Graz'zt.


----------



## Darkness (Oct 8, 2002)

Since quite a few of you are comparing the 3e fiend lords to their 1e counterparts...

*stats of 1e overfiends:*

Amon: AC -2, hp 126
Asmodeus: AC -7, hp 199
Baalzebul: AC -5, hp 166
Bel: AC -3, hp 106
Belial: AC -4, hp 154
Dispater: AC -2, hp 144
Glasya: AC -2, hp 69
Hutijin: AC -4, hp 111
Mammon: AC -3, hp 139
Mephistopheles: AC -6, hp 188
Moloch: AC -3, hp 126
Titivilus: AC -2, hp 86

Baphomet: AC -4, hp 106
Demogorgon: AC -8, hp 200
Fraz-Urb'luu: AC -2, hp 233
Graz'zt: AC -9, hp 186
Juiblex: AC -7, hp 88
Orcus: AC -6, hp 120
Pazuzu: AC -9, hp 155
Yeenoghu: AC -5, hp 100

Hmm... Most other stats (e.g., damage) can't be compared so easily...
Anything else I should add that I can add in a usable format?


----------



## Xarlen (Oct 8, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Aren't they?  Solar is CR 19 with 22 HD.  With 66 HD he is CR 23.  That's pretty close to Graz'zt. *




Then... what's the problem?

The Archdevils and Demon Princes are not gods. Perhaps a Quasi-God, surely having cults around them, but they are the *Most Powerful Fiend*. Solars are the *Most Powerful Celestial*. It's like saying 'How do I make my goldfish as big and mean as a trout?'.

You compare them to gods, but they're not. You compare them to epic level characters, but they're not. They Are Fiends. Sure, the biggest, baddest fiend there ever is, who can bend a Balor over and spank him, but a Balor can bend a lemur over and do the same thing. Simply put, they're at the top of the food-chain in their area. 

Sorry, folks, but this isn't 1e, or 2e. These aren't the same guys they were in 1e, just like the system isn't the same. If you don't like the stats, change them, don't buy the book, so on, because this is what WotC has given you. Now it's your turn to decide what to do about the stats.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *Aside from precedence established in 1ed.  Precendence that 3ed has been using fairly consistently.*



Precedence is no argument.  I've heard rumors that paladins were kept as a core class and _shield_ and _magic missile_ were kept as 1st level to pander to this same concern.  We know all-but-for-sure that various alignment restrictions on classes were kept in for "precedence" reasons, and we know how popular these kinds of things are, here.

This is a new game.  It doesn't have to abide by the muddled arguments of prior games.  It is not some objectively identifaible failure that it fails to do so.

Change for change's sake is, arguably, not a virtue.  Neither is standing still for its own sake.


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *If WOTC had provided only epic level stats for the archfiends, all the low level players would have  complained.  Instead, WOTC provided regular stats, and now all the Epic level players are complaining (including me.)  WOTC should have provided specific stats for regular versions of the archfiends, and epic level (or divine level) stats for the archfiends, then everyone would have been happy.*




How do you provide epic level stats when epic levels go on up forever?  There's always going to be someone who will be upset because the demons/devils/whatever aren't powerful enough to challenge their ever-increasingly-leveled players.

At least with the core books you know that 20th level is 'it'. (Except for those 26th level commoners running around metropoli according to the DMG!)



			
				BryonD said:
			
		

> *Or that 3 different basic MM dragons should not be MORE powerful than not just " a demon lord", but a long established big boy on the block.*




I would say that a great wyrm red dragon _ought_ to occupy roughly the same power niche as a demon lord.  They ought to be terrifying, unique opponents with their own name, personality, tactics, etc - just like a demon lord.  Players should be terrified when they think of fighting them - just like a demon lord.  If they're not, the DM ain't doing his job right.

I find this whole debate fascinating because there are aparrently so many people who think that there's some kind of 'objective D&D reality' - UK tosses off bits about how 32nd level characters might be the toughest in the world, but not on the planes, for example - and then talks about Union from the ELH.

The ELH, the planar cosmology - all of those things are _tools_.  They modify the defaults of D&D.  There's no way for WOTC to know which ones you're using - I for one will be using the ELH, but I don't intend to spend my money on D&Dg - so they _can't_ assume you're using any of them.  It's the only rational way to do things.

Is Graz'zt a terrifying opponent for 20th level characters?  At CR 24, he ought to be.  At CR 24 he could be the climactic encounter for an entire campaign that's started from first level, slowly uncovering his plots, getting closer and closer to the center as the PCs grow in power until they can finally confront the demon lord himself.  And he'll be a tough encounter - I mean, an encounter with an EL of Party Level+4 is one CR below "overpowering", as in "run or die".  And that's just Graz'zt alone.

If you want to use Graz'zt as an opponent in a higher-level Epic game, then it behooves you to make him into an Epic opponent - you, not WOTC, just the same as if you wanted to make changes to any other monster to fit your specific campaign.  You can't expect Wizards to write things specifically for your game.  I think this has been said about six times now by different people, so I'm not sure why I'm trying to say it.

You can say "they should have included two sets of stats", but why stop at 2?  Why not include stats so people can be challenged by Graz'zt when they're 50th level? Or 100th?  You're basically saying 'these aren't the stats I wanted' - well, you obviously have some idea of the stats you wanted, so _use them_.  We won't tell.  Honest.

See, to provide Epic stats for the demon lords (without requiring the ELH) they'd have to reprint rules from the ELH.  And to provide divine stats, they'd have to reprint rules from D&Dg.  So now you have three sets of stats (regular, epic, and divine) and the rules to support them...and all of a sudden you're over the page count, and the book is looking less like the 'Book of Vile Darkness' and more like 'WOTC tries to do Legions of Hell'. Either the book becomes a $40 hardback (and doesn't sell as well) or you cut something.  What goes? How about the stuff that's redundant, reprinted, and dealing with non-core stuff?  Like...the duplicate demon lord stats, because like it or not, they're not the focus of the book.

As for Graz'zt's power relative to other demon lords - and keeping in mind I don't have the BoVD yet - remember that CR reflects how tough a particular creature is for a party of 4 characters to beat.  The king of an entire country could be a terrifying and unbeatable foe because of the resources at his command - and yet he might be only a 5th level Aristocrat (CR 5).  So there may be other factors which keep Graz'zt on the level of Demogorgon and Orcus.  After all, I don't _think_ that demon lords go out and have an Irish stand-down to determine things...

J


----------



## kenjib (Oct 8, 2002)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Then... what's the problem?
> *




I don't have one.  I like the low CR's for these guys.  You're arguing with the wrong person.  

My point was that they don't have to have a high CR to rule over a plane of hell/abyss and that I think it's appropriate for them to not be all that much tougher than a maxxed out dragon.  It's the same point as yours, so I'm not sure who you are referring to by "you", as it's certainly not me.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Nah. Most everyone would complain, because "they wasted all that space on those useless [epic/non-epic] stats!" It's a no-win situation for WotC. *





Considering that this thread is now up to 155 messages, and most of those have been about why WOTC didnt include epic level versions of the archfiends, I think it would definitely have made everyone happy.  Its obviously what everyone is concerned about.  The official messageboards, while not quite as busy, are experiencing the same phenomenon.


----------



## Ulrick (Oct 8, 2002)

Ray Silver said:
			
		

> *Some gory pictures, some nudity, but nothing much nuder than we've seen in some Mongoose books I could name.  However, the nudity is a bit more on the disturbing side (sacrifices, succubi, demon-summoners).  The nudity isn't particularly provocative, it's more incidental.  (Well, the picture of Belial and Fierna is a bit... out there, I'll admit.)
> 
> The gore isn't over the top, it seems just right for the situations in which it is used.  The situations might be somewhat extreme, but then again, this is a book of vile darkness.
> 
> Ulrick - do I know you?  I'm in Ames too, I got mine at Mayhem. *




You might know me.  I still go to Mayhem once a week to see if they have stuff that's been released.  But I rarely buy stuff there since its overpriced and I can usually find it cheaper online.

I'm the President of the ISU Guild and Wargamers and Roleplayers.

You also may know me as The Dungeon Master...

Ulrick


----------



## Mercule (Oct 8, 2002)

CobaltGrC said:
			
		

> *Hey Ray Silver are you a student in Iowa City?  My friend and I have been looking for people to game with...  *




I just met some IC gamers/students looking for a game.  They might only be interested in Amber, but you never know (my game's full, so I didn't ask).  Mail me at mercule@yahoo.com and I'll pass along your contact info.


----------



## RobNJ (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> Considering that this thread is now up to 155 messages, and most of those have been about why WOTC didnt include epic level versions of the archfiends, I think it would definitely have made everyone happy.  Its obviously what everyone is concerned about.  The official messageboards, while not quite as busy, are experiencing the same phenomenon. *



Apparently it needs to be said endlessly, but this forum, and all the internet fora in the world, are not even a large percentage of the D&D gaming public.  And furthermore, they're not a representative sample.  They're self-selecting for people who feel like arguing about stupid things passionately, as though they mean something.  They're self-selecting for extensive internet users.  They're self-selecting for people who think their opinions are precious little lumps of gold, rather than lumps of something else.  And let me save you the time of writing a witty retort: that goes for me too.

So we can't tell anything from message board gossip except what this particular group of message board gossipers like or care about.

Furthermore, you and your ilk have hijacked this thread to grind your particular axe.  The volume of posts is not wholly on your side.  Indeed, it seems to be at least fifty-fifty.

The volume of posts reflects nothing more than what people are willing to strenuously argue about, not what everyone thinks.  You're essentially saying, "everyone cares about what I care about because I've got 10 people arguing about it on one of seven dozen internet role playing fora."  This is patently absurd.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 8, 2002)

drnuncheon,

Again, I don't disagree with anything you said. 

However, I think you have made my point.  The ELH has rules for advanced dragons and epic dragons.  So the paradigm you describe (in which a CR24 Grazz'zt works fine) is not compatible with the ELH.

When you say
"If you want to use Graz'zt as an opponent in a higher-level Epic game, then it behooves you to make him into an Epic opponent - you, not WOTC, just the same as if you wanted to make changes to any other monster to fit your specific campaign. You can't expect Wizards to write things specifically for your game. I think this has been said about six times now by different people, so I'm not sure why I'm trying to say it."

you are in essence agreeing with me, that (based on the CR24) Graz'zt does not fit where he should for a game using the ELH.  What does that mean?  It means the BoVD and ELH are not compatible.

I don't have any expectation that WoTC will make changes that fit my specific campaign.  I have never mentioned my specific campaign.  I would have thought that they would NOT require me to make changes to make their own products work with each other.

Again, I don't have a problem with it, I am just pointing it out as interesting.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 8, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *The volume of posts reflects nothing more than what people are willing to strenuously argue about, not what everyone thinks.  You're essentially saying, "everyone cares about what I care about because I've got 10 people arguing about it on one of seven dozen internet role playing fora."  This is patently absurd. *




The volume of posts, and the discussion contained therein clearly points to the value of archfiends in the BoVD, despite your judgement.  Just because you dont like it, doesnt make it so.  You will just have to learn to deal with it.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *Considering that this thread is now up to 155 messages, and most of those have been about why WOTC didnt include epic level versions of the archfiends, I think it would definitely have made everyone happy.  *



Sigh.

And how do you know that if they had included the stats there wouldn't be just as much uproar over the wasted space? Or something else? You don't. You seem to think that 155 messages is a significant data point. It isn't.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 8, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *The volume of posts, and the discussion contained therein clearly points to the value of archfiends in the BoVD, despite your judgement.*



Yes, and if you ignore people's arguments, and keep insisting that you are right without ever rebutting their points, you'll probably wear them out. That won't make you right, despite your judgement.

The only thing that will demonstrate that you are correct is your ability to uncover the flaws in his argument. Since you apparently can't do that, the noble thing to do is to admit that you are wrong.

You don't have to be noble, of course, but then we'll have to get SemperJase to tell you about the dangers of practicing ignoble behaviour.


----------



## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

I kinda liked the weak-ish demon lords in 1e.  But then the gods were on the same scale.  I think perhaps the big problem is with the OTT god stats in DDG, not the demons in BoVD, although Graz'zt clearly did get the shaft relative to CR 30 Asmodeus etc.  The poster who said that Graz'zt 'needed to be made uncool' is possibly onto something.
I agree also that giant ELH uber-monsters can plausibly be made more powerful than human-sized demon lords (or gods) - an iceberg is more powerful than a battleship, if the two collide... they're just not on the same scale.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *drnuncheon,
> 
> Again, I don't disagree with anything you said.
> 
> ...




Why can't you use the rules for advancing dragons to advance demon lords?  I don't think "incompatible" is the right word you're looking for.  "Incompatible" implies that if you use ELH rules with BoVD, the system will somehow fall apart.  Perhaps what you mean is "doesn't assume ELH as a default," which is exactly the point.  It shouldn't assume ELH as a default, nor should it assume D&DG as a default.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *I kinda liked the weak-ish demon lords in 1e.   *





So you liked the fact that Lolth only had 69 hit points?


----------



## Xarlen (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I don't have one.  I like the low CR's for these guys.  You're arguing with the wrong person.
> 
> My point was that they don't have to have a high CR to rule over a plane of hell/abyss and that I think it's appropriate for them to not be all that much tougher than a maxxed out dragon.  It's the same point as yours, so I'm not sure who you are referring to by "you", as it's certainly not me. *




Nono. Not YOU, but more the general 'you all'. Kenjib just supplied me with a comparison which then I springed of saying 'See? They's even, now the rest of you look here'.


----------



## Grazzt (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> Sigh.
> 
> And how do you know that if they had included the stats there wouldn't be just as much uproar over the wasted space? Or something else? You don't. You seem to think that 155 messages is a significant data point. It isn't. *




You are correct. On both accounts. If they had included divine stats, like I said in my post above, half the people here would be bitching because it contradicts the rules given in the DDG, DotF, and MotP.

Also as you said, the data point is insignificant. Hell, the entire internet gaming community doesn't even account for the majority of gamers out there. There are millions and millions of gamers in the world. The majority either do not have internet access or bother with gaming-related stuff on the internet. We are a niche community in a niche hobby.


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

*You don't have to be noble, of course, but then we'll have to get SemperJase to tell you about the dangers of practicing ignoble behaviour.*



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>ROTFOL<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


----------



## greymarch (Oct 9, 2002)

See!?!  Between my last post and this one, more people have posted comments and questions about the archfiends in the BoVD.  There is lots of cool stuff in the BoVD, and I am desperate to buy it, but its horribly obvious that what most people were curious about were the archfiends and how powerful they would/should be.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Why can't you use the rules for advancing dragons to advance demon lords?  I don't think "incompatible" is the right word you're looking for.  "Incompatible" implies that if you use ELH rules with BoVD, the system will somehow fall apart.  Perhaps what you mean is "doesn't assume ELH as a default," which is exactly the point.  It shouldn't assume ELH as a default, nor should it assume D&DG as a default. *




If I use BoVD as-is and ELH as-is, it will fall apart.

I can advance demon lords the same as I advance dragons and it will work fine.  But now I am not using everything as-is.

It is not required that the ELH be assumed for the rules to remain compatible.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *See!?!  Between my last post and this one, more people have posted comments and questions about the archfiends in the BoVD.  There is lots of cool stuff in the BoVD, and I am desperate to buy it, but its horribly obvious that what most people were curious about were the archfiends and how powerful they would/should be. *





Bringing the grand total of people posting on this subject up to, what, a dozen or so?  Most of the posts are just arguing back and forth between the same people who jumped on this tangent back at the beginning of the thread.  That doesn't mean there's a genuine desire for the archfiends.  Personally, I don't really care one way or the other for them, I just like arguing.  The only thing "horribly obvious" is that you don't understand just how insignificant this little corner of the web is in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *See!?!  Between my last post and this one, more people have posted comments and questions about the archfiends in the BoVD. *



Again, sigh.

I count eight posts. Four of those are concerned with archfiends, and ALL of those seem to be in favour of the approach WotC has taken in BoVD. Did you not read the posts?

And do you STILL not have any means of rebutting the various arguments that have already demolished your central notion -- namely that the BoVD would have been clearly better had it included epic-level stats for the archfiends?

If you all have to offer is repeated insistence of your point of view without any evidence or reasoning to back it up, don't expect anyone to be swayed to your point of view.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> Bringing the grand total of people posting on this subject up to, what, a dozen or so?  Most of the posts are just arguing back and forth between the same people who jumped on this tangent back at the beginning of the thread.  That doesn't mean there's a genuine desire for the archfiends.  Personally, I don't really care one way or the other for them, I just like arguing.  The only thing "horribly obvious" is that you don't understand just how insignificant this little corner of the web is in the grand scheme of things. *




Agreed 100%

I have posted about nothing in this thread other than the Grazz'zt issue.  I am doing so because it is recreational to me.

I am interested in the demon lords.

I am far more interested in most of the other parts of BoVD.


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

*See!?! Between my last post and this one, more people have posted comments and questions about the archfiends in the BoVD. There is lots of cool stuff in the BoVD, and I am desperate to buy it, but its horribly obvious that what most people were curious about were the archfiends and how powerful they would/should be.* 

 greymarch 

Don't use these numbers as for validation. Just about anyone you logged in on this topic would post a note on bellybutton lint and 3e if it happened to entertain them.


----------



## Xarlen (Oct 9, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *See!?!  Between my last post and this one, more people have posted comments and questions about the archfiends in the BoVD.  There is lots of cool stuff in the BoVD, and I am desperate to buy it, but its horribly obvious that what most people were curious about were the archfiends and how powerful they would/should be. *




I know how you feel; I asked some questions on the 4th page.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

herald said:
			
		

> *Don't use these numbers as for validation. Just about anyone you logged in on this topic would post a note on bellybutton lint and 3e if it happened to entertain them. *



Well, but only in this thread if it were VILE belly-button lint.


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *You don't have to be noble, of course, but then we'll have to get SemperJase to tell you about the dangers of practicing ignoble behaviour. *




ROTFLMAO!  Ah, Barsoomcore, you slay me.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *
> 
> If I use BoVD as-is and ELH as-is, it will fall apart.
> 
> ...





If you use ELH at all, you've changed the entire universe from the default "nobody above 20th level" assumption.  You should be prepared to accept the consequences.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> If you use ELH at all, you've changed the entire universe from the default "nobody above 20th level" assumption.  You should be prepared to accept the consequences. *




OK, back to the "this is why they are not compatible".  No argument here.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

Buttercup said:
			
		

> *ROTFLMAO!  Ah, Barsoomcore, you slay me. *



*Shrugs, blushes, rubs toe in the dirt.*

Aw, shucks.

And I haven't forgotten I owe you a map, either. It IS coming, I promise.


----------



## Tuerny (Oct 9, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Demon lords used to be in par with more powerful solars and more powerful than dragons, expect for those like Tiamat and Bahamut. Losing in power to nameless basic monsters, make me doubt whatever their name as lords of hells or abyss is actually viable.
> *




The major ones at least are on par with the most powerful solars.

A 22 HD (Standard) solar has a CR 19
A 33 HD one has a CR of 20
and so on and so forth up to a 66 HD solar having a CR of 23.

Graz'zt is thus more powerful than the most powerful solar with a CR as stated in the book.


----------



## Trine (Oct 9, 2002)

Time to add my two cents (or more).

First of all, I don't really care how they statted out the archfiends and such. I'll look them over and use the stats if I like them, but I won't lose any sleep over it if I don't.

What I'm more interested in is the entire book. How useful do the feats seem? Is there anything especially cool about them? I read the initial review, but I'm definitely interested in seeing other people's opinions about the whole book. I've (personally) gotten bored with all of the people griping about how the archfiends were statted.

So, for a couple of questions about the spells too. What kind of spells were in the book? Straight-out damage your opponent spells? Hunt-down your opponent spells? Make your opponent cry like a sissy girl because he's so scared spells? Make your opponent freak out and want to beat you down even more because you went after their loved one spells? Also, what kinds of penalties and restrictions (as were mentioned in the initial review) are associated with the spells? Temporary ability damage to yourself when casting, etc.

What else? Oh yeah. Other opinions on the equipment found in the book. Are the trapped armors being really mean to your players (effectively taking away possible gear for their use/selling at a later point), etc? Do the traps have to be found through magical means or can a Rogue use their Search skill to detect them? Details please.  

In closing, I'll just revisit the archfiend topic quickly. If they statted them as divine beings, I'd probably be annoyed. If they did them as EL beings, I'd probably be annoyed. They'd be wasted (to me) pages, pages which I have to pay for. I say go to WotC and suggest a web enhancement for the book. They could be interesting to see, but not something I'm interested in paying extra for.

Oh, and we are a niche community in a niche market. Add to the fact of our niche status that not everyone is going to post their comments on the subject, this thread here is even more niche-d. You could always start a poll in another thread to see how people think the archfiends should have been treated, but for the love of gah, stop arguing about it in this thread!


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

*Well, but only in this thread if it were VILE belly-button lint.* 

Stop it! I'm laughing so hard I have to go to little boys room.


----------



## coyote6 (Oct 9, 2002)

That vile bellybutton lint is tough, but it's the *vile dust bunnies* that are the _real_ killers!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Psion mate! 



			
				yours truly said:
			
		

> *"I agree that the deity stats in D&Dg were badly done."*






			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *I don't think they are badly done so much as useless. *




Same thing. If they were 'done right' they would be useful _n'est ce pas_.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *If you ever need to go toe to toe with a deity, you sure can use those stats. But not many people do so enough to make it worthwhile to have a "deity monster manual." *




As I mentioned previously all you have to do is make them deities and have seperate stats for them and their avatars.

Deities are a challenge for epic PCs; Avatars are a challenge for powerful yet non-epic PCs.

Of course this doesn't work with the stats in Deities & Demigods primarily because they made a total mess of the Avatars - who are practically identical to the Deities themselves!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi there Icebear! 



			
				Upper Krust said:
			
		

> *Yet Call of Cthulhu D20 has divine power entities without needing Deities & Demigods or the Epic Level Handbook.*






			
				IceBear said:
			
		

> *Just ignorant here (I haven't looked at the d20 CoC rules)...*




Its a good book - I thoroughly recommend it.



			
				IceBear said:
			
		

> *but would those divine power entities break the established rules in D&D? *




No they are totally consistent with Deities & Demigods. 

Also I think the overlap of D&Dg rules they had to print only took about 2 pages.



			
				IceBear said:
			
		

> *Since Monte wrote both the BoVD and d20 CoC, it would seem that it would have made sense for him to use the precedents that these CoC divine beings set for the demon princes, UNLESS, it would contradict some D&D specific rule/guideline. *




Not at all. The real reason was to reduce the Demon Princes/Archdevils to a measure of power whereupon they could be used by the lowest common denominator of people while still retaining a shred of their vaunted power.


----------



## greymarch (Oct 9, 2002)

I hate to admit it, but my gaming group may have to make an addition to Orcus.  Since he is a lesser god in FR, he will be more powerful than the BoVD version.  If we do this, and thats a BIG IF, I forsee one of two things happening:

1. We use the guidelines layed out in the BoVD.  If these arent specific enough then we could move onto...

2. Give Orcus the paragon template from the ELH!  Now that would make him super-powerful!

The most likely outcome is that we will not change him at all, and just start thinking of Orcus as a chump who is not worth the trouble.  That will be ashame.  He was our most famous adversary in 1st and 2nd edition D&D.


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

You may want to look through Great modron march and dead gods for planescape to understand what he has been through lately. 

I could easily see that the Orcus that is writen in the BOVD might not be the real Orcus....

Hmm....., heehee, bwhaa, bwhaahaahaa, BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH, bWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. 


(oops, over the top.)


----------



## Grazzt (Oct 9, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *I hate to admit it, but my gaming group may have to make an addition to Orcus.  Since he is a lesser god in FR, he will be more powerful than the BoVD version.  If we do this, and thats a BIG IF, I forsee one of two things happening:
> 
> 1. We use the guidelines layed out in the BoVD.  If these arent specific enough then we could move onto...
> 
> ...




You make it sound like its a bad thing to have to change something. Change it. So what. It doesnt mean anything bad is gonna happen. There is no way WotC will ever release a book that 100% of its buyers agree with. Hell, the internet is a small place in the gaming community and look at how many people disagree with the MM, MM2, ELH, etc. Now multiple that by the millions of people in the world that game and don't post on boards like this and the people that are unhappy with something grows exponentially.

If it doesn't suit your campaign's needs, change it. Its easy. And it doesn't invalidate your campaign. It makes it more YOUR campaign than just another FR clone. And the WotC police won't show up at your door if you do change something (hence the reasons for the variant and optional rules scattered throughout the DMG, PHB, etc.)


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> *You make it sound like its a bad thing to have to change something. Change it. So what. It doesnt mean anything bad is gonna happen.*



Psst, Grazzt, maybe you haven't been keeping up, but greymarch _can't_ change things. He's not allowed. If he changes anything, his group won't play with him. Poor guy.


----------



## MerricB (Oct 9, 2002)

Here I was, trying to persuade Gary and a bunch of other OAD&Ders that not all 3E players were rampant power-gamers in the Epic levels... and along comes this thread.

Thanks, guys! You've made my job _so_ much easier.



Very nice review, btw. I'll definitely be picking this book up.

Personally, Lolth _isn't_ a deity in my personal Greyhawk campaign - just a demoness who can grant spells (per the guidelines in Deities & Demigods - Divine Rank 0).

I prefer lower level stats for these guys. Powering them up is likely to be more easy than reducing their power, so I'm very happy with how WotC has done it.

Cheers!


----------



## Numion (Oct 9, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> * The poster who said that Graz'zt 'needed to be made uncool' is possibly onto something. *




More powerful Grazz't would've been cooler? 

More power = cooler, then? 

Does that make Elminster 1337-kewl?

Just kidding.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hey Henry mate! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *All right, let's THROW DOWN, KRUST-BOY!!!!*








			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Seriously, I guess I need to dig back out my 1eMM2, and compare notes.*




So it would appear! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *I seem to recall it somewhat differently from what you describe - after all, Grazzt was introduced later than Orcus or Demogorgon, and I recall him as being somewhat lesser in power (although I do recall being impressed way back when that he had magic missile as a spell-like ability)*




Yep he had four attacks per round and had Disintigrate AND Polymorph Any Object as spell-like abilities.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *I also recall him as a prince of deception as early as his description in the Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth (his original appearance); in fact, he and Iggwilv were the parents of Drelzna the Vampiress, was he not?? I believe he seduced Iggwilv, unless I am mistaken. Also, is Iuz not the progeny of Grazz't? If both are true, we get the picture of Grazz't as quite the "playah."*




Exactly. He's the Demon Prince of Cool. I bet he even has the voice of Barry White. Graz'zt is the original pimp daddy - why do you think he hangs with all those Succubi; Lamias and Mariliths! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Therefore, I don't quote 1E, but 2E sources for my info.*




Blasphemy! I'll let you off with it once - just don't do it again. 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Finally, I don't take XP as final measure of a creature's power in 1E or 2E.  This system was in some ways as screwy as the CR system, IMHO.*




I take it with a pinch of salt. 

Though the evidence speaks for itself. Graz'zt is one badass mama-jama...or at least he was until Monte gave him a makeover. 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *I will have to look back at raw stats between Orcus, Demogorgon, and Grazz't from the 1E sources, but I based my assertions on what I recalled of them. If I am wrong, I will admit it.*




Hey! You know I ain't frontin'.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *However, my supposition still stands: Monte's and WotC's vision can and WILL differ from ours. It doesn't matter in relative power, or in overall. This version of Grazz't will still mop the floor with any Core Rules mortals that come his way. With Orcus and Demogorgon, he might have to be a little more clever.*




Relative power always matters - power IS relative.



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Live long and prosper, my immortal-knowledgeable friend.  *




I fully intend to mate! 

...or should that be 'Peace and Long Life'.


----------



## Anabstercorian (Oct 9, 2002)

*Seriously, if you want something different...*

...CHANGE it.  WotC provides a baseline and a foundation with with to work.  Sometimes (often, in fact) that's enough.  But sometimes it isn't, and you have to change it.  If you're too squeamish to muck around in the rules a little, then I, personally, have little respect for you as a dungeon master.  Don't be such a wuss - What do you think this is, Rolemaster?  This is Dungeons and Freakin' Dragons!  Get out there and make the status quo your bitch!


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

*Psst, Grazzt, maybe you haven't been keeping up, but greymarch can't change things. He's not allowed. If he changes anything, his group won't play with him. Poor guy.* 

Darn it, Now I have soil myself. Ok, gotta stop with this.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

MerricB said:
			
		

> *Here I was, trying to persuade Gary and a bunch of other OAD&Ders that not all 3E players were rampant power-gamers in the Epic levels... and along comes this thread.
> 
> Thanks, guys! You've made my job so much easier.
> 
> ...





I don't think many of us have played Epic-level games, so we don't know if we're rampant power gamers or not. 

I, for one, like the demon princes right where they are, so I guess that makes me a non-power gamer.  Or something.  I dunno.


----------



## Xarlen (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> I don't think many of us have played Epic-level games, so we don't know if we're rampant power gamers or not.
> *




Despite my love for the fellow kobold, it's pretty much accepted Kobolds don't go Epic.


----------



## MerricB (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *I don't think many of us have played Epic-level games, so we don't know if we're rampant power gamers or not. *




Well, I played the Amber DRPG for three years or so, being a Duke of Amber and a Prince of Chaos for that time... so I guess I've got a certain tendency towards _*Really Powerful Characters!*_



Cheers!


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

MerricB said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Well, I played the Amber DRPG for three years or so, being a Duke of Amber and a Prince of Chaos for that time... so I guess I've got a certain tendency towards Really Powerful Characters!
> 
> ...




Bah.  Diceless. Anyone can be a _*Really Powerful Character*_ when you just sit around and play pretend.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Claude! 



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *But CoC d20 is a stand alone game. Investigators aren't supposed to be epic levels ever and if they do encounter the gods, it's only so they can go insane and die.*




Exactly. Yet that book contained deity-level interpretations of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods in an appendix and no one complained.



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *CoC does have deity stats, but they are an abbreviated version of what's in  Deities & Demigods.*




So why couldn't the Book of Vile Darkness be treated in a similar fashion!?



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *Furthermore, the gods aren't meant to be challenges to the players in any way, shape or form.*




Why not?



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *But since they ARE gods, and are included for completeness, then they were stated as gods.*




Okay lets look at a parallel here. 

The Great Old Ones have worshippers so they are statted as gods. The Demon Princes and Archdevils also have worshippers...yet they are not statted as gods. Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy?



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *The demon princes and arch-devils are not gods (by 3e canon) and shouldn't be statted as such.*




Even if we prescribe to this shaky 3rd Ed. canon they spend a not insignificant amount of time outlining the worshippers of these beings; detailing the domains these beings _could_ grant; and explaining how "if you want" you could give them divine ranks.



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *If you think these creatures are too weak, fine,*




The power level is consistent with where you would want it given you have to facilitate interaction with the lowest common denominator while still retaining some semblance of power. I have no problem with that in itself - actually it makes sense.

My only problem with the book is that Graz'zt is no longer consistent with Orcus and Demogorgon in terms of power. 



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *but just because another game included diety stats and didn't need Deities & Demigods doesn't mean that accessories to D&D should do the same. *




I didn't say it _should_ do the same - but it certainly _could_ without any difficulty. Also that would have also solved 90% of the discussion in this thread since you would have the Divine Asmodeus to challenge epic PCs and an Avatar Asmodeus to interact with powerful, though non-epic PCs. Simple as that.


----------



## MerricB (Oct 9, 2002)

It's all in the attitude. It's the only time I've really played an evil, arrogant bastard. Let's face it, you don't get really powerful by being _nice_ to everyone. 

Of course, I never get a chance to play really high-level D&D characters - the most I've ever had is a 13th level wizard in 1E/2E. But I'm DMing way too often...

Cheers!


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

I know why Graz'zt (move apostrophe as necessary) is wimpy now - My party smacked his ass three ways to Sunday and stole their goddess back. 

Or, they would have.  If they hadn't gotten killed before they got there.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi kenjib! 



			
				kenjib said:
			
		

> *Aren't they?  Solar is CR 19 with 22 HD.  With 66 HD he is CR 23.  That's pretty close to Graz'zt. *




Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version.


----------



## MerricB (Oct 9, 2002)

At these high levels, isn't CR just a state of mind?

A state of a _deranged_ mind?

Like Galactibanks?

Cheers!


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *you are in essence agreeing with me, that (based on the CR24) Graz'zt does not fit where he should for a game using the ELH.  What does that mean?  It means the BoVD and ELH are not compatible.*




I guess what I'm disagreeing with is the characterization of the two books as incompatible.  That, to me, means that the books _can't_ work together - which is obviously not the case.

Using your definition of "not compatible", every single d20 book is "not compatible" with each other - a statement which seems ridiculous to me - simply because they don't take every other d20 book into account.  Such a definition of incompatibility stretches the meaning of the word past its breaking point, at least to my mind.

I prefer to reserve the word for more serious inabilities to work together, ones that cannot be resolved by ten minutes of work with a pencil and paper.

J


----------



## Tuerny (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi kenjib!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version. *




Using your homebrewed version of the CR system, right?

Its pretty clear that tripling the HD of a creature adds 4 to its CR in the core rules.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version. *




http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonstersc.html

Solar is CR 19 and has 22 HD.  There's nothing in the MM errata for it.


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi kenjib!
> 
> 
> 
> Actually try CR25 for the Solar and CR33 for the 66HD version. *




Er, UK...are you using your own CR calculations here, or the ones from WOTC.  They are apples and oranges, really.

I ask because my copy of the Monster Manual has the Solars at CR 19 and 22 hit dice, just like kenjib's.  Doubling the hit dice twice would add +4 to the CR, making it 23 - again, just as kenjib said.

I've just checked the errata (03/18, the latest version) and it does not appear to have any changes for the CR of the Solar.

Where is this CR25 coming from, and how are you getting from there to CR 33 when you triple the hit dice?

J


----------



## jasamcarl (Oct 9, 2002)

*Ummmm...*

Could somebody explain to me the logic of asserting that an inability to advance a monster by hd is in anyway inconsistent with either the core rules or ELH. Which ELH rule do the demon/devil lords violate? Monte Cook made clear that infact the CRs work for epic as well as non epic games.


----------



## EarthsShadow (Oct 9, 2002)

hehehehehehehe....I vant dis Book of Vile Darkness...gotts to get it.... so I's can maketh me the most dispicable and vileest villians eeevvveeerrrr... hehehehehehehehehe... 


and then include kenders in my world!!!


----------



## Xarlen (Oct 9, 2002)

EarthsShadow said:
			
		

> *
> and then include kenders in my world!!!   *




Kender were one of the things they cut out of the BoVD. Too vile.


----------



## Moulin Rogue (Oct 9, 2002)

This question would have been better off early in the discussion, but.... 

did they really end up going with the cover art that's been posted online (and called 'too cartoony' on this board), or was the final one changed like other covers have been?


----------



## Claude Raines (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Exactly. Yet that book contained deity-level interpretations of the Great Old Ones and Outer Gods in an appendix and no one complained.
> 
> So why couldn't the Book of Vile Darkness be treated in a similar fashion!?
> *




They could have treated it in the same fashion, but my point was that the books serve different purposes. One is to let you play CoC fully and completely. The other is to add evil to your villains in a standard D&D game (not epic or statted gods game).

BTW, the players in CoC are not meant to challenge the gods because that  is the flavor of the campaign. Any who see them are supposed to go insane and/or die. You can change it if you want, but that's not how most people play it.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Okay lets look at a parallel here.
> 
> The Great Old Ones have worshippers so they are statted as gods. The Demon Princes and Archdevils also have worshippers...yet they are not statted as gods. Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy?




No, because 3e specifically states that they aren't gods. It then goes to make a few exceptions (Lolth), but they are the exceptions, not the rule.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> Even if we prescribe to this shaky 3rd Ed. canon they spend a not insignificant amount of time outlining the worshippers of these beings; detailing the domains these beings _could_ grant; and explaining how "if you want" you could give them divine ranks.




True, which is darn nice of Monte to do so. Just because you have to buy Deities & Demigods to figure out all the particulars doesn't mean that they should have statted them twice for you. After all, if you want their stats as gods, you probably want the stats of all gods and have bought D&Dg. Then you can put the demons & devils at what power is appropriate for your campaign instead of WotC deciding for you and causing more consternation and uproar such as "Why isn't Orcus a greater god????"



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> The power level is consistent with where you would want it given you have to facilitate interaction with the lowest common denominator while still retaining some semblance of power. I have no problem with that in itself - actually it makes sense.
> 
> My only problem with the book is that Graz'zt is no longer consistent with Orcus and Demogorgon in terms of power.




I agree with you on both these points.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> I didn't say it _should_ do the same - but it certainly _could_ without any difficulty. Also that would have also solved 90% of the discussion in this thread since you would have the Divine Asmodeus to challenge epic PCs and an Avatar Asmodeus to interact with powerful, though non-epic PCs. Simple as that.




Maybe so, but they might have had to cut something completely new instead, like a few spells, feats, or some equipment. I would rather have new stuff than dual statted demon princes. Of course, if they make a web enhancement with deity stats, I certainly won't complain and will probably use it happily.


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *My only problem with the book is that Graz'zt is no longer consistent with Orcus and Demogorgon in terms of power.*




CR is not a measure of power.

CR is a measure of the challenge to 4 PCs in a fight.

There are many ways to be powerful that do not involve being able to kick the tuckuses of 4 guys who show up on your front doorstep.

Graz'zt may be able to hold his own versus Demogorgon and Orcus for reasons other than sheer combat ability.

I haven't seen the stats or the background, so I'm not certain if that's the case, but it seems to be that 90% or more of the "wussy Graz'zt" complaint has been based solely on CR, which is as ridiculous as basing it solely on number of hit points.

In short: Graz'zt may be a tougher foe for other demon lords than he is for PCs.  That won't be reflected in his CR, because CR isn't meant to measure how tough you are against demon lords, it's meant to measure how tough you are against PCs.

J


----------



## Darkness (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd/srdmonstersc.html
> 
> Solar is CR 19 and has 22 HD.  There's nothing in the MM errata for it. *



Right. But many people (including UK, obviously) think that that's too low.

Me, I'm not sure; it _seems_ rather low, compared to some other creatures, but I haven't yet put it to the test...


----------



## Buttercup (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> *Shrugs, blushes, rubs toe in the dirt.*
> 
> Aw, shucks.
> ...




It's ok.  I know you'll get it done when you can.  We're taking a hiatus this month, as it happens, since I'm running a 1 shot adventure with throw-away characters while we play test Role Playing Master.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 9, 2002)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I guess what I'm disagreeing with is the characterization of the two books as incompatible.  That, to me, means that the books can't work together - which is obviously not the case.
> 
> ...




You do not have my definition of "not compatible" correct.

I won't speak for d20 in general anyway.  I am only talking about WoTC D&D books.  

Please quote where I defined "not compatible" in any way that remotely suggests what you have presented.  

As I clearly stated before, if I us BoVD as-is and I use ELH as-is, Grazz'zt will not stand up at all.  

Trying to do a hatchet job on what I did say and then attacking that does not have any relevance.

Edit:  Perhaps I should clarify that the entire discussion has been in regard to the demon lords, and Grazz'zt in particular.  I do not mean to imply that the feats, PClasses, spells, etc are not compatible.


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

BryonD said:
			
		

> *You do not have my definition of "not compatible" correct.*




Obviously, since that's exactly what I was saying.  I think it's a poor choice of words for the concept you are trying to get across, because it has implications which go far beyond what you are trying to say.  _That_ is what I was pointing out.

J


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

greymarch said:
			
		

> *2. Give Orcus the paragon template from the ELH!  Now that would make him super-powerful!
> *




That'd work for any of these whiners complaining their favorite demon lord can't lay the smack down enough.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi all! 



			
				Tuerny said:
			
		

> *Using your homebrewed version of the CR system, right?
> 
> Its pretty clear that tripling the HD of a creature adds 4 to its CR in the core rules. *






			
				MeepotheMighty said:
			
		

> *http://www.opengamingfoundation.org...dmonstersc.html
> 
> Solar is CR 19 and has 22 HD. There's nothing in the MM errata for it.. *






			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *Er, UK...are you using your own CR calculations here, or the ones from WOTC. They are apples and oranges, really.
> 
> I ask because my copy of the Monster Manual has the Solars at CR 19 and 22 hit dice, just like kenjib's. Doubling the hit dice twice would add +4 to the CR, making it 23 - again, just as kenjib said.
> 
> ...




Yes those are extrapolated from my ECL/CR system - I guarantee it gives more accurate results than the official rules. 

The official rules have a number of blatant mistakes (even Monte Cook went on record saying he thought the Solar was more akin to CR25) of which the Solar is the most obvious.

Likewise their advancement rules prove to be wildly innaccurate and incongruous.

Trust me...I know what I'm doing!


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

MerricB said:
			
		

> *Here I was, trying to persuade Gary and a bunch of other OAD&Ders that not all 3E players were rampant power-gamers in the Epic levels... and along comes this thread.*




Will that thread ever end?


----------



## Henry (Oct 9, 2002)

A correction to my earlier statement:

After looking at the stats for Graz'zt (got it right this time around), and the stats for Big D. and Big O. I can conclude that in First Edition AD&D,  Big G. is comparable in power to D. and O., but not necessarily superior to D. or O. 

G., for one thing, has weaker Damage resistance, his Magic resistance is weaker, and his armor class is comparable if he isn't using his magic shield, but he is stronger in his spell-like abilities than D. or O. He also carries a bigger entourage. A host of other minor factors come into play, here (for instance, he could cast the equivalent of a wish, but only for others and never himself), but suffice it to say, he should be close to equivalent CR and power - following the 1E example, perhaps he should work out to a CR between Big D. and Big O.?

The real pudding will be when I get the book. Only then will we be able to offer a definitive analysis of Graz'zt versus the other princes. However, he will always be my favorite demonic pimp daddy, no matter how he is portrayed.


----------



## Tuerny (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Not to be rude, but why should we trust you over WotC?


----------



## MerricB (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Will that thread ever end? *




Never! It's the arguing that's the fun bit, not whether we're right or not. 

It allows us to take outrageous positions and try and beat each other down...

Actually, I get a bit depressed by the 1Eers that see nothing of value in 3E, just as I get depressed by the reverse.

So much of it is speculation - as I don't believe there is One True Way, it makes it difficult when there are people that are.

Incidentally, have you had a chance to look at Necropolis, Alan?

Cheers!


----------



## MerricB (Oct 9, 2002)

Every so often, I start up a thread on GreyTalk on whether people consider Lolth a demoness or a deity. I'm very much in the "demoness, she can be killed" camp, though I admit she can grant spells. Alternatively, she's the front-demoness for a greater power (Tharizdun?) that channels her the energy, though she unknowing...

Opinions vary on this, of course!

Regardless, of whatever level of power you place a demon lord at, some will regard it as too low, and some as too high. 

Cheers!


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

MerricB said:
			
		

> *It allows us to take outrageous positions and try and beat each other down...*




That's what I find frustrating. All the boogeymen.

I don't mind people not liking 1e or 3e... I just wish they'd dislike it for what it is, not what it's not.



> *
> Incidentally, have you had a chance to look at Necropolis, Alan?*




Flipped through it in the store. Decided not to pick it up as I don't have much use for it. Looks nice, though.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Claude mate! 



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *They could have treated it in the same fashion, but my point was that the books serve different purposes. One is to let you play CoC fully and completely. The other is to add evil to your villains in a standard D&D game (not epic or statted gods game).*




Yet you don't need stats for the Great Old Ones to play CoC and the Archdevils are not the only villains. Therfore such stats are practically already superfluous to non-divine/non-epic gamers.



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *BTW, the players in CoC are not meant to challenge the gods because that  is the flavor of the campaign. Any who see them are supposed to go insane and/or die. You can change it if you want, but that's not how most people play it.*




Exactly. So the Great Old Ones stats in that book were targeted not at CoC players but at divine/epic D&D players.



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *No, because 3e specifically states that they aren't gods. It then goes to make a few exceptions (Lolth), but they are the exceptions, not the rule.*




True but WHY does it state that some beings have worshippers and are gods yet others aren't. Its hypocrisy whatever way you approach it!? 



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *True, which is darn nice of Monte to do so.*




I'm guessing he got paid as well. 



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *Just because you have to buy Deities & Demigods to figure out all the particulars doesn't mean that they should have statted them twice for you. After all, if you want their stats as gods, you probably want the stats of all gods and have bought D&Dg.*




My point was that CoC D20 included such stats with minimum fuss without the need for D&Dg.



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *Then you can put the demons & devils at what power is appropriate for your campaign instead of WotC deciding for you and causing more consternation and uproar such as "Why isn't Orcus a greater god????"*




As I already mentioned I have no problem with the power level in the book (because I was always going to modify them anyway) but I can see why some people prefer these entities not to be pushovers.



			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *I agree with you on both these points.*








			
				Claude Raines said:
			
		

> *Maybe so, but they might have had to cut something completely new instead, like a few spells, feats, or some equipment. I would rather have new stuff than dual statted demon princes. Of course, if they make a web enhancement with deity stats, I certainly won't complain and will probably use it happily. *




The book is only 191 pages (below even the _de facto_ 224 standard) - I think they could have seen their way to adding a few more.

Its not like they couldn't think what else to add - they had about another hundred or so unique lower planar entities to draw from: Baphomet? Fraz-Urb'luu? Kostchtchie? Pazuzu? Zuggtmoy? Anthraxus? General of Gehenna? Apomps? Elemental Lords of Evil? etc.


----------



## BryonD (Oct 9, 2002)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Obviously, since that's exactly what I was saying.  I think it's a poor choice of words for the concept you are trying to get across, because it has implications which go far beyond what you are trying to say.  That is what I was pointing out.
> 
> J *




I meant exactly what I said, and have yet to hear evidence that anything it implies is off.


----------



## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

Bah!  It's like I said when I heard they were making Star Wars Episode I - "It'll never live up to the expectations".  No matter what stats they gave for the demon princes no one would be happy because we all have different campaigns and expectations.  They shot for the lowest common denominator, and those that don't like them will have to modify the stats as appropriate (at least those of us that are allowed to modify stats ).

IceBear


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Henry mate! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *A correction to my earlier statement:
> 
> After looking at the stats for Graz'zt (got it right this time around), and the stats for Big D. and Big O. I can conclude that in First Edition AD&D,  Big G. is comparable in power to D. and O., but not necessarily superior to D. or O.*




I won't say it. 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *G., for one thing, has weaker Damage resistance, his Magic resistance is weaker, and his armor class is comparable if he isn't using his magic shield, but he is stronger in his spell-like abilities than D. or O. He also carries a bigger entourage. A host of other minor factors come into play, here (for instance, he could cast the equivalent of a wish, but only for others and never himself), but suffice it to say, he should be close to equivalent CR and power - following the 1E example, perhaps he should work out to a CR between Big D. and Big O.?*




Remember his four attacks! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *The real pudding will be when I get the book.*




Now your getting confused with Juiblex.  



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Only then will we be able to offer a definitive analysis of Graz'zt versus the other princes. However, he will always be my favorite demonic pimp daddy, no matter how he is portrayed.  *




He ain't a Prince - hes the King. Demon King of Cool. All he needs is a white sequined jumpsuit and he'll be singing Viva Las Abyss all night.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Tuerny! 



			
				Tuerny said:
			
		

> *Not to be rude, but why should we trust you over WotC? *




You shouldn't! Especially not when I am posting at 3:30 am 

What you should trust however is the facts! Which fortunately speak for themselves. 

- A number of Monster Manual challenge ratings are obviously incorrect. Certainly made all the more noticeable the higher you ascend. Likewise they don't really have any system to accurately determine challenge ratings, so what you are getting are best guesses.

- Doubling (or just generally increasing) the Hit Dice does not affect challenge ratings as WotC suggest. Again all the more noticeable the higher you go.

- The effect of levels on Challenge Rating (where CR 'x+4' = 4 'x') starts to degrade. Notably so after 20th-level. 

All of these problems are easily fixed though.


----------



## GroverCleaveland (Oct 9, 2002)

On Graz'zt's CR:

Pfft and feh! Upper Krust misses the whole point of Graz'zt - he didn't get where he he is today from his raw power. He's successful because he's smart, cunning, charismatic and subtle. In 2nd edition, Demogorgon and Orcus were both lesser gods, while Graz'zt was only a quasi-deity. And it didn't matter! He was still one of the most powerful of the Abyssal rulers.

A prince of the Abyss should never have to engage in direct combat with anybody. They have vast legions and magical protections, and they can urge the land and local reality itself to fight for them. Graz'zt's armies are at least as vast as Demogorgon's ever were, while Orcus is weakened by his war with Kiaransalee. Graz'zt's loyal minion, Lord Verin, has wormed his way into the confidence of many other lords, while others serve Graz'zt out of fear of his influence or because of his many sinister pacts. He's a consummate dealmaker, not concerned with the raw elemental energy of evil as Demogorgon is, or with just killing everybody like Orcus wants to do.

Claiming that Graz'zt needs to physically defeat Demogorgon in a boxing ring does a huge disservice to the character of this most subtle of demons.


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## jasamcarl (Oct 9, 2002)

All i have to say is that whenever Upper Krust begins questioning Wotcs business strategy its time to give up on the discussion as beyond reational.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 9, 2002)

Trine said:
			
		

> *Time to add my two cents (or more).
> 
> First of all, I don't really care how they statted out the archfiends and such. I'll look them over and use the stats if I like them, but I won't lose any sleep over it if I don't.*




Amen.  I started this thread to share the vile wealth and people have gotten hung up on one chapter out of eight.

*



			What I'm more interested in is the entire book. How useful do the feats seem? Is there anything especially cool about them? I read the initial review, but I'm definitely interested in seeing other people's opinions about the whole book. I've (personally) gotten bored with all of the people griping about how the archfiends were statted.
		
Click to expand...


*
As I've mentioned before, there are several feats that allow one to metamagic their spell-like abilities a certain number of times per day.  While fairly useful and deadly for demons and devils, PCs with spell-like abilities could get milage out of these too.  

The Deformity feats are a nasty collection, with the prereq of the Willing Deformity feat.  Deformity feats include making your hands into claws, putting out your own eye or cutting a hole for a third to _see invisibility_ for a certain amount of time per day, scarring your face into a hideous visage, or starving or gorging yourself for stat change.  

There are a couple feats that mark you as belonging to dark powers.  Evil Brand lets all know your soul belongs to darkness, and other evil creatures respect or are in awe of it.  Thrall to Demon and Disciple of Darkness are for those that have a Demon Lord or Archdevil as a patron (they gain some luck bonuses to their rolls a certain number of times per day).  

*



			So, for a couple of questions about the spells too. What kind of spells were in the book? Straight-out damage your opponent spells? Hunt-down your opponent spells? Make your opponent cry like a sissy girl because he's so scared spells? Make your opponent freak out and want to beat you down even more because you went after their loved one spells?
		
Click to expand...


*
The spells run the gamut.  There are direct damage spells, not so direct damage spells, summoning spells, utility spells (one that summons a bag of torture instruments, for example), it has some of everything.  

*



			Also, what kinds of penalties and restrictions (as were mentioned in the initial review) are associated with the spells? Temporary ability damage to yourself when casting, etc.
		
Click to expand...


*
Yes, several spells, the Corrupt spells, have temporary ability damage costs.  Corrupt spells are also not inherantly arcane or divine, so anyone can cast them and they become a spell of that type when cast.  Also some spells require the caster to be diseased, drugged, or a demon, devil, fiend, or undead to cast it.  Others require the caster to be standing in a particular place, or require a soul as a component.  

*



			What else? Oh yeah. Other opinions on the equipment found in the book. Are the trapped armors being really mean to your players (effectively taking away possible gear for their use/selling at a later point), etc? Do the traps have to be found through magical means or can a Rogue use their Search skill to detect them? Details please. 

Click to expand...


*
The trapped armor and equipment can be mean.  Some of it destroys the item in question, some doesn't.  And they're all essentially traps, so if a rogue is looking, they can be disabled.

Other trapped items include the spring needle in sword hilt.  If you pick up the sword without switching a special latch, you get a poison needle in the hand.  One is an axe that has detaching heads if a switch isn't flipped.  And then the aforementioned fire-trapped armor.


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## Xarlen (Oct 9, 2002)

So the axe-heads just fall off?

I hope that's not all the trapped items.


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## Trine (Oct 9, 2002)

Very cool. Thanks Ray! I think you may have just sold a book.  Well, I'll definitely be looking for it at my local gaming stores. Again, thanks for the info. It sounds like a fun book to add some weird twists to your NPC's.


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## Isida Kep'Tukari (Oct 9, 2002)

Xarlen said:
			
		

> *So the axe-heads just fall off?
> 
> I hope that's not all the trapped items. *




It's a CR 1 trap, what do you expect?  *shrug*  It just makes the weapon unusable.  It could be a very mean trick though.  There are a few more, like a fire trap on a potion vile, and a glyph of warding on a backpack, and a poison gas spray in a coin purse.  It also gives you some ideas on how to make other traps for equipment.  The half-dozen or so it stats out are mostly for examples.


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## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Yes those are extrapolated from my ECL/CR system - I guarantee it gives more accurate results than the official rules.
> 
> The official rules have a number of blatant mistakes (even Monte Cook went on record saying he thought the Solar was more akin to CR25) of which the Solar is the most obvious.
> ...




Hi Upper_Krust.  What you are talking about is not CR then.  It's something else that you invented.  Until you get the Book of Vile Darkness and run the archfiends through your grinder you really can't compare now, since you are talking about two entirely different things, right?  It's quite possible the arch-fiends are also under-CR'd just like the dragons intentionally were.

Lemme know what you think once you've seen the actual stats.  I'd be interested to hear.  Until then all we have to go on is that the Solar is 19-23 and the demon lords are 20-32.  That's all.


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## Xarlen (Oct 9, 2002)

Cool.  I just had this mental image of someone swinging an axe and the head *flying* off.


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## Celebrim (Oct 9, 2002)

If I was intent on convincing some people that D&D players where not demon worshippers...

Then this thread would not be the place to start.

Sheesh.

I had no idea that these critters commanded this kind of love and devotion.  This is insane.  It's just a bunch of numbers on a peice of paper???  

I'm looking at Graz'zt's picture in the MMII and you know I just can't see it.  And as for those people that keep complaining that old Graz'zt and co. should be immensely more powerful than 'mere mortals', let me remind you that Graz'zt lost to out TWICE to 'mere mortals' in his official history.   First, when he was imprisoned by an unnamed wizard - which cost him dearly in his war with Demogorgon, and secondly when the planar rangers freed the goddess Waukeen from his prisons.   So please, enough already.   He never was particularly potent statwise in any regard except AC.   Mephistopheles has more psionic points, better magic resistance, and better spell abilities, Orcus has better equipment (not to mention Time Stop), and Fraz-Urb'luu has him beat in the Thug department.   If you want Graz'zt to be CR 29 (or 49) in your game world, go to town, but that wouldn't necessarily be good conversion.   Basically I'd be happy with Grazz't as something similar to a 24th level Psychic Warrior with a demonic template and a few extra spell abilities.

He's just a D&D monster for crying out loud.

And for those of you complaining, the stats given for the arch fiends where never significantly better than an uber-powerful mortal, so why should they be now?   They were always intended to be foes for high level parties, which back in the day meant 15th-18th.   Why is it important to you that they be held in awe?


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 9, 2002)

Tuerny said:
			
		

> *
> 
> The major ones at least are on par with the most powerful solars.
> 
> ...




Mmh,  that might be true. But comparing CR:s doesn't hold water for me. I need to see stats first.

If you have ever visited WotC pages fight club, you might know how funnily they add CR, when giving monsters character levels. Funny, since many are still going to be walked over by similar 'real' CR mosnters.

And with some monsters extra HD (anvanced HD) is so much more valuable, than rules make it appear to be. Because critters HP, saves, etc rise up.  And HP are really important factor, especailly if critter fast heals, is practicly 'immune' to most elemental spells (takes only marginal damage at best, if not complitely immune to that element), and unliky to ever fail a save to rest of them.

However, if might be, they gave these lords of evil abilities, that make them at par with high HD solar, even if their HD is less. That remains to be seen.


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## Olive (Oct 9, 2002)

*new thread...*

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27074

this is a thread for discussing the contents of the book, not the relative merits of the way they stated the lords and arches, or how CR works...

so please answer questions here!!!

oh yeah: the d20 CoC book put the stats for the elder gods etc in because "in D&D... they can make formidible foes".

in other words they're in there for D&D players... which is why they have alignment and other non-CoC stats...


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *
> 
> 
> So you liked the fact that Lolth only had 69 hit points? *




66hp - 132 on her home plane. 

It still took a level 20+ party to complete 'Queen of the Demonweb Pits'!


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Numion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> More powerful Grazz't would've been cooler?
> 
> ...




Elminster is uncool both in concept & execution.  Graz'zt is cool in concept, but now in 3e is uncool in exceution, being presented as much weaker than Orcus or _Iuz_?!?!  

That, as UK pointed out, is the real travesty - that DDG and BoVD are so far apart in assumed power levels, you get ridiculous results like that.


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## Zappo (Oct 9, 2002)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> *If I was intent on convincing some people that D&D players where not demon worshippers...
> 
> Then this thread would not be the place to start.
> 
> ...



Same applies to your most beloved PC, for that matter. Or to my nation's GDP. Don't underestimate the power of numbers on a piece of paper.


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## Numion (Oct 9, 2002)

I still don't get why Grazzt would have to be able to go toe-to-toe with _everyone_ to be cool. Isn't it his character, tactics and mentality that make him cool? Not whether he can get in the ring with anyone. Somehow I don't think that's how they settle things in the underworld.. Demogorgon steps in and demands one-on-one with Grazz't? [Dr.Evil]Riiiiight[/Dr.Evil], 

Remember, the guy has his considerable entourage with him, and other resources,  so he'll give a 30th level group a run for their money if need be. I agree with WotC's decision to make these creatures _almost_ usable with just the core rules. They'll probably work with ELHB, if you don't take the game much past 30+ level.

And UK, I wouldn't put Solar at CR 25. Maybe 22 or 23. My 19th level group defeated a solar and a planetar, once they had escaped from the first fight.  CR 25 should be total overkill for 19th level group.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi drnuncheon! 



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *CR is not a measure of power.
> 
> CR is a measure of the challenge to 4 PCs in a fight.*




Actually CR is the most consistent measure of power within the D20 system.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *There are many ways to be powerful that do not involve being able to kick the tuckuses of 4 guys who show up on your front doorstep.
> 
> Graz'zt may be able to hold his own versus Demogorgon and Orcus for reasons other than sheer combat ability.
> 
> ...




Nevertheless CR is our only marker for power. 

In the Abyss personal power is everything. That determines how far up the hierarchy you ascend. Its not like Graz'zt is the CEO of a company - he has to get his hands dirty; and he has to be seen get his hands dirty to gain and maintain his respect.


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi drnuncheon!
> 
> 
> Actually CR is the most consistent measure of power within the D20 system.
> ...




Yeah, I think a lot of people miss this.  In CE societies, and the Abyss is the epitome of CE, personal power is everything.  If Kostchtchie could crush Graz'zt like a pretzel, it wouldn't be long before he did it, no matter how more charismatic Graz'zt is.  LE is different - power in LE societies can depend on position/status rather than personal ability.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Grover! 



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *On Graz'zt's CR:
> 
> Pfft and feh! Upper Krust misses the whole point of Graz'zt - he didn't get where he he is today from his raw power. He's successful because he's smart, cunning, charismatic and subtle. *




He is indeed all of those - but in the Abyss you need to be able to back that up because theres always some maniac just crazy enough to 'call you out'!



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *In 2nd edition, Demogorgon and Orcus were both lesser gods, while Graz'zt was only a quasi-deity. And it didn't matter! He was still one of the most powerful of the Abyssal rulers.*




Please don't use 2nd Ed. as a basis for such a discussion - they didn't know what the hell they were doing back then.



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *A prince of the Abyss should never have to engage in direct combat with anybody.*




Wrong. Demon Princes have to be physically capable of backing their intentions up.



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *They have vast legions and magical protections, and they can urge the land and local reality itself to fight for them.*




Not really. Gods can do that though; but I think people often get the wrong idea what that means.



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *Graz'zt's armies are at least as vast as Demogorgon's ever were, while Orcus is weakened by his war with Kiaransalee. *




I agree their armies should be relative - as should they themselves!



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *Graz'zt's loyal minion, Lord Verin, has wormed his way into the confidence of many other lords, while others serve Graz'zt out of fear of his influence or because of his many sinister pacts.*




Exactly. Graz'zt is a Demon Monarch. He has other Princes and Lords under his banner (Yeenoghu and Kostchtchie for example). But so do other Demon Monarchs like Demogorgon; Orcus and Zuggtmoy.



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *He's a consummate dealmaker, not concerned with the raw elemental energy of evil as Demogorgon is, or with just killing everybody like Orcus wants to do.*




All the above are concerned with conquering the Abyss though - regardless of other 'hobbies'.



			
				GroverCleaveland said:
			
		

> *Claiming that Graz'zt needs to physically defeat Demogorgon in a boxing ring does a huge disservice to the character of this most subtle of demons. *




Not at all. Thats how the Abyss works.

The disservice was to make Graz'zt a whipping boy in a place where personal power is gospel.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi jasamcarl mate! 



			
				jasamcarl said:
			
		

> *All i have to say is that whenever Upper Krust begins questioning Wotcs business strategy its time to give up on the discussion as beyond reational.  *




Feel free to quote me and argue any point - I'm here all week!


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## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

> *
> Yeah, I think a lot of people miss this. In CE societies, and the Abyss is the epitome of CE, personal power is everything. If Kostchtchie could crush Graz'zt like a pretzel, it wouldn't be long before he did it, no matter how more charismatic Graz'zt is. LE is different - power in LE societies can depend on position/status rather than personal ability.*




I really beg to differ. Chaotic Evil =/= Chaotic Stupid.

Yes, CE is predecated on the fact that power goes to those who can keep it...

However, that power can be gained and held by treachery and guile as well as personal power.
Chaotic Evil is evil marked by disregard for social conventions. This may describe a ravening barbarian. It also describes characters like Valmont of _Dangerous Liaisons_.


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Demon Princes have to be physically capable of backing their intentions up.
> 
> *




True, true.

Even in old 2nd edition module for "For Duty and Deity" (where some mishandeling of Graz'zt dates),

there was this saying:

_“In the Abyss, kindness is unnatural, mercy impossible, and power all that matters.”
—Rule-of-Three, a cryptic tanar’ri_

No matter how cunning or charismatic lordling is, it's going to be matter of personal power contest sooner or later, probably sooner.


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## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *there was this saying:
> 
> ?In the Abyss, kindness is unnatural, mercy impossible, and power all that matters.?
> ?Rule-of-Three, a cryptic tanar?ri
> ...




No, that is not necessarily true. Even if you took rule of three's cant as law, you are saying that personal power is the only "power". Not so.

However chumpy you think Grazzt is, he his still more powerful than his minions. Now due to treachery and guile he has parleyed that into a position equivalent to those of Orcus and Demogorgon, who probably got to their position by bumping heads (perhaps literally in the case of Demogorgon  ). Grazzt, by being sneaky and wathing his back, gains his power in a different way, obviously.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi kenjib! 



			
				kenjib said:
			
		

> *Hi Upper_Krust.  What you are talking about is not CR then.  It's something else that you invented.*




True to an extent. Its not wholly different; just modified.

Monsters are first equated to levels. Then those above 20 are modified to represent a consistent challenge (using the 'x'+4 = 4'x' formula; where 'x' is Challenge Rating) 

eg. CR24 = 4x CR20



			
				kenjib said:
			
		

> *Until you get the Book of Vile Darkness and run the archfiends through your grinder you really can't compare now, since you are talking about two entirely different things, right?  It's quite possible the arch-fiends are also under-CR'd just like the dragons intentionally were.*




Irrelevant though; given that I haven't a problem with the measure of the Demon Princes/Arch-devils. My only problem was that Graz'zt is no longer relative to Orcus and Demogorgon in terms of personal power.



			
				kenjib said:
			
		

> *Lemme know what you think once you've seen the actual stats.  I'd be interested to hear.*




I have seen the stats for Asmodeus. They were handed out at Gencon as a preview. Someone was kind enough to post them on the WotC boards.

As far as I can tell he is indeed CR32...though as you mentioned above; under my auspices that means something other than a party of four 32nd-level characters will roll over him using (approx.) 25% of their resources. 



			
				kenjib said:
			
		

> *Until then all we have to go on is that the Solar is 19-23 and the demon lords are 20-32.  That's all. *




I would very much doubt a party of four 30th-level PCs would defeat a 66HD Solar more than 5% of the time.


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I really beg to differ. Chaotic Evil =/= Chaotic Stupid.
> 
> ...




True, true.

But if you want to say, that's enough to keep one's rank in inhuman domain of evil for aons, centuries, whatever, feels a bit absurb to me to compare it some movie character, with much more easy life.

((Or maybe not absurb, considering, that they made planes 'more kind' for lower level characters in 3rd edition.))

Naturally there might be those exceptions, but Graz'zt was not priorly described weaker, than some of those fellow lords. This is issue, and the fact that gods (or tiamat&bahamut) are so far removed in 3rd edition from demon/devil lords (or animal/elemental-lords for that matter), compared to how they apperead in 1st edition.

And some of us have games dating from those times, and seemingly random (or 2nd edition based, perhaps) changes make me wonder. Oh, then again, after seeing clerics without gods getting high level spells, I don't really wonder anything.

Plus I have a lot of free time currenly to write crap like this here in net, instead of doing something useful.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi S'mon! 



			
				S'mon said:
			
		

> *66hp - 132 on her home plane.  *




Don't you mean 122 on her home plane!


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## Knight Otu (Oct 9, 2002)

I believe 132 is correct.


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## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Don't you mean 122 on her home plane!  *




If the rule is x2, that's 132, Krusty.

60 x 2 = 120
6 x 2 = 12

120+12 = 132.


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## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *
> Actually CR is the most consistent measure of power within the D20 system.
> 
> Nevertheless CR is our only marker for power.
> *




That doesn't mean it's a good one.

For example, the following two characters have the exact same CR:
Ftr5, Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, 60 hp.
Ftr5, Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, 25 hp. (Everything else identical)

Obviously in a fight, the first one will whup the tar out of the second one so badly that his entire family will need a cure light wounds.  The first one is unequivocably more powerful.  And yet they're the same CR!

It's also trivial to imagine a scenario where a creature would be far more challenging for a demon lord than it would be for a party of adventurers - perhaps it's got a special quality that gives it SR50 vs. outsiders.  That would not raise its CR much, because it really wouldn't be that big of a deal for a party of adventurers - but for a demon lord it would definitely make things more difficult.  That's not to say that Graz'zt couldn't find a way around it - but it would be more difficult for him to defeat the creature than it would be for your typical party of adventurers.

So my point is that any comparison of two monsters based on CR alone is going to be flawed, because CR is just a number, and it cannot take into account the specifics of the situation.  

A dire lion and a 'stock' weretiger are the same CR, but the lion is unable to penetrate the weretiger's DR on anything but a critical - who do you think is going to win?  Heck, I'd bet on the 'stock' weretiger vs. a dire tiger - a creature that's 3 CR higher!  Does that mean the stock weretiger should be CR 8? Hardly - the average 5th level PC party will have access to silver or magical weapons - heck, they've got _fireball_ - and without its DR the weretiger isn't nearly as tough.  An 8th level party would barely notice it as a speedbump - but they'd definitely notice the dire tiger.

So as you can see, trying to play "who'd-win" using just CRs is a nonsensical game, because CRs don't measure what you need to play "who'd-win" - at least, where one of the parties concerned is not a party of adventurers.

J


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> No, that is not necessarily true. Even if you took rule of three's cant as law, you are saying that personal power is the only "power". Not so.
> 
> However chumpy you think Grazzt is, he his still more powerful than his minions. Now due to treachery and guile he has parleyed that into a position equivalent to those of Orcus and Demogorgon, who probably got to their position by bumping heads (perhaps literally in the case of Demogorgon  ). Grazzt, by being sneaky and wathing his back, gains his power in a different way, obviously. *




Yep, good point.

Oh, and I woudn't care about these sort of things in games run by other people, but sometimes those ancient standards of my game from times long past rise their ugly head.

Still, I typically take Abyss for place, where personal power matters most, and Hells for place, where any kind of power, especially one coming from number of underlings/allies/rank/leadership matters most.

Nah, and I sure don't take any 'cants' as law, just flipped though my mind.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hello Numion! 



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> *I still don't get why Grazzt would have to be able to go toe-to-toe with everyone to be cool. Isn't it his character, tactics and mentality that make him cool? Not whether he can get in the ring with anyone.*




In the Abyss you have to be 'All that AND a bag of potato chips!'



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> *Somehow I don't think that's how they settle things in the underworld.. Demogorgon steps in and demands one-on-one with Grazz't? [Dr.Evil]Riiiiight[/Dr.Evil],*




Actually whats more likely is that Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's territory backed by a million strong army of demons. Graz'zts equally strong forces engage them but Demogorgon is able to roll through Graz'zts strongest units and champions like a hot knife through butter. Graz'zt can't engage Demogorgon personally since he'll just get crushed so the two-headed one is left to wreak havoc throughout Graz'zts strongest troops.



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> *Remember, the guy has his considerable entourage with him, and other resources,  so he'll give a 30th level group a run for their money if need be. I agree with WotC's decision to make these creatures almost usable with just the core rules. They'll probably work with ELHB, if you don't take the game much past 30+ level.*




Possibly. But I'm only concerned with the relative measure of power between Graz'zt; Demogorgon and Orcus.



			
				Numion said:
			
		

> *And UK, I wouldn't put Solar at CR 25. Maybe 22 or 23. My 19th level group defeated a solar and a planetar, once they had escaped from the first fight.  CR 25 should be total overkill for 19th level group. *




I would be interested to hear how that encounter transpired?


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Knight Otu and Psion! 



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> *I believe 132 is correct.  *






			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *If the rule is x2, that's 132, Krusty.
> 
> 60 x 2 = 120
> 6 x 2 = 12
> ...




Actually that was an inside joke between S'mon and myself. He ran the adventure and had inadvertantly scribbled 122 hit points down for Lolth (I have his Queen of the Demonweb Pits module). Something that was only picked up on after the adventure*. 

*I didn't participate in that adventure myself.


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 9, 2002)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That doesn't mean it's a good one.
> 
> ...




Yes, I agree. CR alone is problematic way to compare power, and it's often misused too.

This is reason, why I feel doubtful about advanced HD adding so little CR. Those hit points/Saves and other stuff matter greatly.
And in case of some monsters they mean more, than with others.

Lets say, monster with 100 hp cast heal on himself, it's pretty different, if he had 400 hp instead.

Much hp draw longer fights and much can happen with long fights.
PC:s run out of spells, they get hurt, and if monster happens to have fast healing or something like that, it doesn't have to bother to stop heal that minor damage so often.

How much those advanced HD count depends much on monster.
How useful adding character levels also depends on monster, and what kind of party will be facing it.

I've played one game from 1st level to 23th level (without epic rules), and we run into this 'supposingly just little advanced monster' problem constantly.


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## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

Like many sacred cows, 3E has changed the power levels of the various demon lords.  IF you didn't know what the relative power levels were supposed to be based on the past editions, would this thread have died awhile ago?

For those that don't like the power levels, fix them.  Better yet, maybe someone should contact Monte and ask for the rationale on why the power levels changed so we have a basis to understand what's going on.   It could be something as simple as the war has gone badly for Graz'zt and now Orcus and Demogorgon are more powerful than him in the 'stock' D&D universe.

Anyway, I don't think applying 1st and 2nd Edition information to 3E is 100% appropriate.

IceBear


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## Kaelynna (Oct 9, 2002)

*Upper_Krust....RE: Asmodeus' stats*



> *I have seen the stats for Asmodeus. They were handed out at Gencon as a preview. Someone was kind enough to post them on the WotC boards.
> 
> As far as I can tell he is indeed CR32...though as you mentioned above; under my auspices that means something other than a party of four 32nd-level characters will roll over him using (approx.) 25% of their resources.*




Upper_Krust,

Can you provide me the link to Asmodeus' stats?  I would really like to see them.

Thanks!
- Kae.


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## RobNJ (Oct 9, 2002)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> *I, for one, like the demon princes right where they are, so I guess that makes me a non-power gamer.  Or something.  I dunno. *



If it ever were an issue for me, I would probably give them divine rank 0, not so much because I have a problem with their being attackable and defeatable by 20th level characters, as because I wouldn't want them to be permanently dead because of those characters.

Or I might just give them a special ability that they can only be permanently killed by demon lords or divine rank 0+.  Sort of like the DR X/silver of dietyhood.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi drnuncheon! 



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *That doesn't mean it's a good one.
> 
> For example, the following two characters have the exact same CR:
> Ftr5, Str 18, Dex 18, Con 18, 60 hp.
> ...




Actually detailed under my system those characters would have a different Challenge Rating! 



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *It's also trivial to imagine a scenario where a creature would be far more challenging for a demon lord than it would be for a party of adventurers - perhaps it's got a special quality that gives it SR50 vs. outsiders.*




I don't think I have encountered a monster with localised spell resistance?



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *That would not raise its CR much, because it really wouldn't be that big of a deal for a party of adventurers - but for a demon lord it would definitely make things more difficult.  That's not to say that Graz'zt couldn't find a way around it - but it would be more difficult for him to defeat the creature than it would be for your typical party of adventurers.
> 
> So my point is that any comparison of two monsters based on CR alone is going to be flawed, because CR is just a number, and it cannot take into account the specifics of the situation.*




PCs are just as likely to be affected by the specifics of a situation as anyone else.

Thats why you determine the base power of the monster from the ground up. Then you can apply situational modifiers.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *A dire lion and a 'stock' weretiger are the same CR, but the lion is unable to penetrate the weretiger's DR on anything but a critical - who do you think is going to win?  Heck, I'd bet on the 'stock' weretiger vs. a dire tiger - a creature that's 3 CR higher!  Does that mean the stock weretiger should be CR 8? Hardly - the average 5th level PC party will have access to silver or magical weapons - heck, they've got fireball - and without its DR the weretiger isn't nearly as tough.  An 8th level party would barely notice it as a speedbump - but they'd definitely notice the dire tiger.*




As far as I can tell:

Dire Lion CR6 (just barely)
Weretiger CR7
Dire Tiger CR8



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *So as you can see, trying to play "who'd-win" using just CRs is a nonsensical game, because CRs don't measure what you need to play "who'd-win" - at least, where one of the parties concerned is not a party of adventurers. *




They do when I determine them though. 

Any difficulty is in determining a given situation. 

eg. Undead are easier to defeat with clerics. Constructs are more difficult to tackle without fighters. Creatures with the Cold subtype are easier to defeat if you have access to fire based spells and items. etc.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Zelda mate! 



			
				Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *Yes, I agree. CR alone is problematic way to compare power, and it's often misused too.
> 
> This is reason, why I feel doubtful about advanced HD adding so little CR. Those hit points/Saves and other stuff matter greatly.
> And in case of some monsters they mean more, than with others.
> ...




Of course both Heal and Harm are broken...but thats perhaps a topic for another thread.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

*Re: Upper_Krust....RE: Asmodeus' stats*

Hi Kaelynna mate! 



			
				Kaelynna Thelanthra said:
			
		

> *Upper_Krust,
> 
> Can you provide me the link to Asmodeus' stats?  I would really like to see them.*




Here it is:

http://boards.wizards.com/rpg/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=118;t=002571

Ignore the doofus about six posts down who said Asmodeus was more like CR29.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *Like many sacred cows, 3E has changed the power levels of the various demon lords.  IF you didn't know what the relative power levels were supposed to be based on the past editions, would this thread have died awhile ago?
> 
> For those that don't like the power levels, fix them.  Better yet, maybe someone should contact Monte and ask for the rationale on why the power levels changed so we have a basis to understand what's going on.   It could be something as simple as the war has gone badly for Graz'zt and now Orcus and Demogorgon are more powerful than him in the 'stock' D&D universe.
> 
> ...



Cook already explained part of his overarching rationale.  To him, it's important to have high-powered evil foes that PCs can fight.  He referred to these kinds of opportunities in 1ed and decided to stat these guys out as non-divine for this reason.  With 2ed, this was not possible since gods and god-like entities weren't statted; only the avatars were (which is also why they dumbed down Graz'zt and Pazuzu/Pazreal to Abyssal Lords). 

3ed has returned to the philosophy that everything can be statted, including gods.  Indeed, arguably the heart of D&D is essentially rooted in 1ed concepts, ideas, and presentation.  Gods can once again be killed and defeated.  For whatever reason, though, Cook and co. decided not to extend this concept to the arch-fiends, who in 1ed were ranked as Lesser gods.  I reiterate that his argument rests on parties being able to battle and defeat them at the end of a long campaign.

My problem with this argument is that the gods were also statted out in 1ed and were often killed/defeated by gamers.  Cook and co. never clarified why there should be a difference now between the gods and archfiends (and I would include other Planar entities) in that everything has stats.  Simply put, the decision made was inconsistent on two fronts.  First, it disregards the fact that even gods in 3ed have stats and can be defeated by sufficiently high-level characters.  Second, it's not consistent with the general trend regarding the "homage" and "nostalgia" paid to 1ed in handling these particular entities... which, as evidenced by these debates that have been raging for over a year, are extremely popular.

The best option, in my mind, would have been the olive branch WotC offered to those proponents of 2ed's concepts of gods (myself formerly included).  In _Deities and Demigods_, a DM can use the stats of the gods provided as the real god, powerful avatars, and so on.  This would please those interested in having official, multiple options.  It also allows for those who want to have earlier encounters.  A group of 20th level characters could conceivably fight the avatar of Tiamat as written.  Then, they could travel to Hell and battle the actual goddess as 50th level epic characters.

The archfiends should have been handled in a similar fashion.  It would have been consistent with 1ed and would have pleased all parties without requiring too much additional work for most.  Provide divine stats, avatar stats, and a caveat about which one could be used for the actual fiend if a person didn't see them as a god or divine.  Those who agree with Cook (I happen to agree with his perspective, but not the specifics and his ultimate conclusion) that the fiends can be fought and defeated would have options in handling this without isolating any one group.  

As for applying earlier editions to 3ed...  I disagree with you.  I think that looking back on the editions is one of the most important elements in the redesign of the game.  Many of the concepts in earlier editions are the fuel used for this edition.


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## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

Serge, I often refer back to the past editions when it comes to gray rules, so I guess I should have explained myself better when I said that about using the past rules - I just meant the status quo for the past editions don't necessarily apply to 3E.  They may have been the basis for many things in 3E, but 3E was also designed to move away from some of these past conceptions.  Anyway, I don't think we really disagree on this point I just think I'm not articulating myself well.

What I'm sure WotC will do is release a web enhancement that will contain some of the missing demon princes and also contain the divine stats that many people seem to want.

IceBear


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## RobNJ (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *The archfiends should have been handled in a similar fashion.  It would have been consistent with 1ed and would have pleased all parties without requiring too much additional work for most.  Provide divine stats, avatar stats, and a caveat about which one could be used for the actual fiend if a person didn't see them as a god or divine.  Those who agree with Cook (I happen to agree with his perspective, but not the specifics and his ultimate conclusion) that the fiends can be fought and defeated would have options in handling this without isolating any one group.*



This is so frustrating.

If they did what you suggest, people would've complained about that, too.  Or they would've complained about the extra cost.

This kind of thing is appropriate for a web enhancement, but complaining that they didn't write the book the way you wanted it to be written, and that is a failing, is an irritating, selfish and short sighted argument.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *Serge, I often refer back to the past editions when it comes to gray rules, so I guess I should have explained myself better when I said that about using the past rules - I just meant the status quo for the past editions don't necessarily apply to 3E.  They may have been the basis for many things in 3E, but 3E was also designed to move away from some of these past conceptions.  Anyway, I don't think we really disagree on this point I just think I'm not articulating myself well.
> 
> What I'm sure WotC will do is release a web enhancement that will contain some of the missing demon princes and also contain the divine stats that many people seem to want.
> 
> IceBear *



Thanks for the clarification; you're correct, we don't really disagree on that point.

I think a web enhancement would be the way to go at this point depending on what we all ultimately see this weekend (except for Upper Krust... he never gets anything until three weeks later it seems ).  If the options presented allow for better customization (although the root taken in DDG would have been better) then great.  If not, then I think that an enhancement for the archfiends with full divine powers at the Lesser god level (still too weak for me, but it would fit in with the entire throw-back to 1ed concepts) would be in order.  If they did that in the first place, I don't think we'd see half the arguments on this matter.

IceBear... cute name.  Relevance?


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## Kaelynna (Oct 9, 2002)

*I have an interesting point I'd like to make....*

Here is a snippet of the 3E Manual of the Planes....



> Brutally repressed rumors suggest that there is more to Asmodeus than he admits.  The story goes that the true form of Asmodeus actually resides in the deepest rift of Nessus called the Serpent’s Coil.  The shape seen by all the other devils of the Nine Hells in the fortress of Malsheem is actually a highly advanced use of the project image spell or an avatar of some sort.
> 
> The secret rift, formed by Asmodeus’ plummeting body when he first arrived in the Nine Hells, spirals inward over the course of hundreds of miles.  His titanic, miles-long form still rests here—and his wounds have yet to heal.  His acid-black blood pools in the hallows of the rift, a substance fouler than foul.
> 
> From where fell Asmodeus?  Was he once a greater deity cast down from Elysium or Celestia, or is he older yet, as the rumor hints?  Perhaps he represents some fundamental entity whose mere existence pulls the multiverse into its current configuration.




Now, is any of this even mentioned in BoVD, or does the left hand know what the right hand is doing here?

My suggestion would be to treat the CR 32 Asmodeus as his 'avatar' or project image as described in the above text, and then stat out his true form however you feel appropriate.

My 2 gold,
- Kae.


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## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

Hehehe - long story

I was a HUGE Battletech fan in the past so when MW2 came out I was all over it.  Then when the Clan Ghostbear addon came, I decided to use the nick Ghostbear.  About that time I was also on mIRC a lot and I was using the nick Ghostbear.  Then I got into a nickwar and basically gave up.  Since there was lots of ice and snow in the game, I called myself IceBear.  Since then I realized I'm bearish in shape and from Canada (which people attribute to ice and snow even if I haven't see a white Christmas in over 7 years) so IceBear kinda fits.

Told you it was a long story 

As for why they didn't include the divine stats in the first place, I'm sure there was a business reason (though I don't know what that is as the book is apparently undersized).

IceBear


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *This is so frustrating.
> 
> If they did what you suggest, people would've complained about that, too.  Or they would've complained about the extra cost.
> 
> This kind of thing is appropriate for a web enhancement, but complaining that they didn't write the book the way you wanted it to be written, and that is a failing, is an irritating, selfish and short sighted argument. *



Wow.  You're really taking this personally.   That's too bad.  Sorry if that's the way you feel about my arguments and position, but I don't believe I'm being short sighted or selfish (see below).   

However, I do agree that there would be complaints.  They'd be about as loud as those regarding the statting out of gods... and that wasn't too loud.  It would have offered more options.  

And, no, that's not the way I want it to be written by the best compromise.  Personally, I want a book deals exclusively with the archfiends, provides detailed up-to-date descriptions on the politics (or lackthereof) of Hell and The Abyss, with stats that reflect Asmodeus as a Greater god (at least), Demogorgon as an Intermediate god (at least) and down from there.  That's what I want.  But, I'm willing to compromise and I think the suggestion I made would have pleased more people than the current situation.


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## Zelda Themelin (Oct 9, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *
> Told you it was a long story
> 
> As for why they didn't include the divine stats in the first place, I'm sure there was a business reason (though I don't know what that is as the book is apparently undersized).
> *




Hehe, maybe it became undersized, when they left out prostitution rules, after Monte's public complaint, that he would never write such to the book.

Ok, I am kidding, but I remember word 'prostitution' in original add, and it is there now more, mere coincidence?


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I really beg to differ. Chaotic Evil =/= Chaotic Stupid.
> 
> ...





I disagree strongly - you're ingnoring the fact (IMO), that to succeed as a Valmont you need to be in a Lawful (maybe Lawful Evil) society to start with!  Drop Valmont into Mogadishu and see how he does.  I've GM'd a lot of CE campaigns, seen a lot of CE PCs, and how it works in literature and in the real world.  Chaotic Evil can't help but act Chaotic Evilly, otherwise it's LE (actually Valmont's probably NE, anyway).

Maybe CE behaviour isn't 'Chaotic Stupid' but it's neither rational nor sensible, and is often against the long-term interests of the CE person themselves.  It is Chaotic and Evil, you know!


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Knight Otu and Psion!
> 
> Actually that was an inside joke between S'mon and myself. He ran the adventure and had inadvertantly scribbled 122 hit points down for Lolth (I have his Queen of the Demonweb Pits module). Something that was only picked up on after the adventure*.
> 
> *I didn't participate in that adventure myself. *




Yeah yeah, you'll never let me forget that!  
What's worse is, I think she only took 127 damage in the first round of combat with the attackers (all level 20+ or quasi-deity types), if I hadn't made that mistake she'd have escaped!


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

RobNJ said:
			
		

> *
> This kind of thing is appropriate for a web enhancement, but complaining that they didn't write the book the way you wanted it to be written, and that is a failing, is an irritating, selfish and short sighted argument. *




You're a bad, bad man.  You're going on my Ignore list.


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## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *I disagree strongly - you're ingnoring the fact (IMO), that to succeed as a Valmont you need to be in a Lawful (maybe Lawful Evil) society to start with!
> *




To succeed as Valmont, perhaps.

To succeed as Grazzt, not necessarily.

Valmont was only an example to illustrate that the CE mentality is not limited to ravening barbarians. (And yes, given his total disregard for social proprietry, I think Valmont is chaotic.)

Lets take the situation someone put up about demonic armies clashing in the abyss, and rulers popping in to confront one another person to person.

Grazzt, through his network of spies, catches wind of this. So he flees from his fortress and tells his plant in Orcus' camp to make sure Orcus knows this. Orcus takes this as his big chance and shows up, to find himself facing Demogorgon. So they get in a tussle, and their armies wear each other down, THEN Grazzt returns to mop up.

Y'see, power is NOT limited to personal power, and double dealing and trickery still apply in a chaotic setting.


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## Darkness (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I don't think I have encountered a monster with localised spell resistance?*



Holy Aura (and its equivalents) give what amounts to that (evil spells and spells cast by evil critters); maybe a creature can have something to that effect, too?


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

As UK has said, to succeed in the Abyss you need both.  Anyway, my real beef is that they didn't retain the 1e power gradient, or similar (1e Orcus's 120 hp was a bit low!).  I can see Graz'zt being up to 2 CR below Demogorgon - that means he's only about 1/2 as powerful - but not 1/16 or 1/32.  That's Titivilus territory, not Graz'zt!
And leaving all that aside, the incompatibility with DDG power levels, not ELH power levels, seems to me to be the book's real failing.  At times there seems to be a quasi-Christian justification for 'weak' devils & demons.  But in actual Christian 'mythology' like Milton, the pagan gods like Zeus & Odin are just minor demon lords anyway - certainly weaker than Lucifer or Mammon.   A Christian-influenced campaign would logically put Asmodeus as much stronger than Ares, something like the Hercules/Xena TV series treatment of it (AFAIK - haven't seen the latter seasons of Herc)


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## Tzarevitch (Oct 9, 2002)

Numion said:
			
		

> *I still don't get why Grazzt would have to be able to go toe-to-toe with everyone to be cool. Isn't it his character, tactics and mentality that make him cool? Not whether he can get in the ring with anyone. Somehow I don't think that's how they settle things in the underworld.. Demogorgon steps in and demands one-on-one with Grazz't? [Dr.Evil]Riiiiight[/Dr.Evil],
> 
> Remember, the guy has his considerable entourage with him, and other resources,  so he'll give a 30th level group a run for their money if need be. I agree with WotC's decision to make these creatures almost usable with just the core rules. They'll probably work with ELHB, if you don't take the game much past 30+ level.
> 
> And UK, I wouldn't put Solar at CR 25. Maybe 22 or 23. My 19th level group defeated a solar and a planetar, once they had escaped from the first fight.  CR 25 should be total overkill for 19th level group. *




More importantly. There is little reason why Demogorgon would try to attack Grazz't on his home ground. Sure he could probably beat Grazz't hand to hand, but Grazz't wouldn't fight that way and he knows it. He'll use the traps and defenses that he set uo for this contingency and he'll bring the full might of Azzzagrat to bear. Why would Demogorgon or any other demon lord ever risk his immortal existance in direct battle against someone who is on a similar power level (if slightly weaker physically) and thus could possibly destroy him? 

Remember that demon princes like Grazz't are immortal and have had all eternity to prepare for such controntations, especially on their home ground and against an enemy of which they are well aware. As of last I saw (I do not yet have the BoVD) Grazz't was still master of THREE layers of the Abyss. He has created plots and traps that span generations. He has also demonstrated that even gods need to tread carefully around him. 

The issue of which demon prince could beat up on which other is irrelevant because such a fight wouldn't occur. Demon princes have too much to loose by fighting each other regardless of power level. 

Tzarevitch


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## Henry (Oct 9, 2002)

Y'know, I think we're all gonna have a really good laugh if the BoVD actually has an incorrect number on CR, compared to what powers he actually has in the writeup. 

Stranger things have happened.

I don't know if Ray SIlver has TOTALLY vacated this thread yet, but does anyone have any questions BESIDES the demon princes and their CR's?


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *
> Valmont was only an example to illustrate that the CE mentality is not limited to ravening barbarians....
> 
> Y'see, power is NOT limited to personal power, and double dealing and trickery still apply in a chaotic setting. *



I agree with both sentiments, but I think that when it comes to evil in general, having the ability to maintain ones own is essential.

For CE, physical challenges will be almost constant because it's largely about personal power.  Yes, some CE beings will be craftier and more subtle than others, but in the end, when Demogorgon decides enough is enough and he _teleports_ directly to Graz'zt, all the political power in the world is inconsequntial for CE beings.  There is no or limited amounts of subtlety here, and little to no hiding behind protocol.  It's about how much will I lose right now if I do take a certain action.  A decision not to attack has nothing or little to do with policy but with what can happen if I'm gone and my lackies start to unravel, or another enemy attacks.    

In Hell, I think that the physical power of an Arch-Devil is what encourages a greater degree of subterfuge as well as protocol and social requirements.  Unlike real-world Earth, in which an invalid may be king and someone rules behind a throne, why do this in an environment in which belief and power go hand in hand?  Asmodeus needs to be stronger, craftier, and wiser than his rivals and lackies because it ensures that he will remain king in a violent and evil environment.  The others, recognizing his physical threat, spend their time using politics to topple him, only willing to face him physically after they know he can be defeated by lawful means as well as purely physical.

If anyone's seen _Lion In Winter_ starring Peter O'Tool and Audry Hepburn (I think), one sees Lawful at work.  Henry II is king because not only is he the strongest, he's also the craftiest.  He uses subterfuge, misdirection, and the law to maintain his position, hiding behind it like a shield and using its letter rather than spirit.  His sons and his Queen likewise do the same, using the law.  But, in the end, much of his power is physical; not even his son, Richard the Lionhearted is willing to blindly fight his father due to both reputation and recognized skill.  

CE are a bunch of gangs running around, waiting for the opportunity to strike.  When the do, most times, there's a stalemate until it's decided that the two leaders should meet and see who is the stronger.  When that's resolved, the gang of the loser is either subsumed into the victor's gang, run-off, or destroyed.  This is strictly about personal power, possibly includes tactics, but is not as intricate or strategic as LE as illustrated above.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Serge mate! 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> *I think a web enhancement would be the way to go at this point depending on what we all ultimately see this weekend (except for Upper Krust... he never gets anything until three weeks later it seems  ). *




Hey! Rub it in why don't you!


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## Celebrim (Oct 9, 2002)

"I can see Graz'zt being up to 2 CR below Demogorgon - that means he's only about 1/2 as powerful - but not 1/16 or 1/32..."

Oh, now I see the problem.

CR +2 DOES NOT DOES NOT DOES NOT mean twice as powerful except within a very limited range.

There is a very simple reason for this.

A 3rd level character (facing CR 3 challenges on average) is about three times as powerful as his 1st level counterpart.  However, a 20th level character IS NOT twice or even three times as powerful as his 18th level counterpart.  As CR increases, the relative difference between any two creatures with a difference in CR of 2 decreases.  By the time we are over CR 20, the relative strength of any two creatures with different CR is roughly proportional to thier CR.

This is true whether WotC admits it officially or not.

So, if Grazz't's CR is say 24 and Demogorgon's CR is say 29, then Grazz't is only slightly less than 83% as powerful as Demogorgon.  Let's call it 75%.

A CR 24 challenge is much more of a challenge for a 29th level character than a CR 1 challenge is for a 6th level character.  That's the facts folks.  An 11th level character is probably a match for 64 Gnolls, but a 28th level character is probably not a match for 64 18th level characters.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi Serge mate!
> 
> 
> 
> Hey! Rub it in why don't you!  *




  Heh heh heh.


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Yet WoTC maintain the CR system does the opposite, that +2 CR = x2 threat (and x2 XP).  And if you're CR 32 you get _no_ encounter XP for a CR 24 challenge.  Your use of CR is more like 'ECL' - Equivalent Class Level.  
I agree there's a problem at over 20th level.  Personally I like UK's divorcing of ECL & CR (see House Rules & Asgard 6).  WotC's approach in the ELH by contrast is to maintain that the ratio still works - that +2 levels is always x2 challenge.

Some WoTC rules follow your route (eg the +1 level = +1 CR advancement rule).  Others follow the opposite approach - eg x2 HD is only +2 CR advancement rule.  It is an unholy mess, agreed.  I'd have to actually have BoVD to see which approach Monte has actually taken.


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Oh, I second the vote for The Lion in Winter - great (slightly weird) film!


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Psion mate! 



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *Lets take the situation someone put up about demonic armies clashing in the abyss, and rulers popping in to confront one another person to person.
> 
> Grazzt, through his network of spies, catches wind of this. So he flees from his fortress and tells his plant in Orcus' camp to make sure Orcus knows this. Orcus takes this as his big chance and shows up, to find himself facing Demogorgon. So they get in a tussle, and their armies wear each other down, THEN Grazzt returns to mop up.
> 
> Y'see, power is NOT limited to personal power, and double dealing and trickery still apply in a chaotic setting. *




Nope. Doesn't wash. 

Abyssal politics is all about turf. 

Abyssal factions are akin to street gangs. Whereas factions in the Hells are akin to organised crime syndicates.

In a street gang the leader is always the toughest. Members will challenge the leader if they perceive weakness.

If Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's 'turf' and Graz'zt flees that represents a loss of face. Graz'zts gang members might think 'why do I want to be with this wimp when I can throw in with Demogorgon, hes going places!'

The Demon Princes personal power naturally correlates to the amount of Abyssal real estate they own. Fraz-Urb'luu being the exception since he lost most of his territory when he was captured by Zagig (pg 102 1st Ed. Manual of the Planes) and is in the process of rebuilding his powerbase.

Demon Lords only rule over part of a layer. 
Demon Princes rule at least one entire layer and probably have some Demon Lords under them (either as allies or servants).
Demon Monarchs rule multiple layers of the Abyss and have both Demon Princes and Lords under them.

The entire gang framework is central to the structure of the Abyss. While Graz'zt's 'turf' may extend to as many as fifty or more layers, most of those will come from subordinate alliances which are always shaky at best given the nature of the Abyss. Demon Lords under Graz'zts banner might throw in with Demogorgon if they thought they would get something out of it.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi Henry mate! 



			
				Henry said:
			
		

> *Y'know, I think we're all gonna have a really good laugh if the BoVD actually has an incorrect number on CR, compared to what powers he actually has in the writeup.
> 
> Stranger things have happened. *




Agreed. 

I must admit I am having trouble seeing Yeenoghu as CR22 here. Obviously I don't yet have enough of his stats to make an accurate assessment.

We know 33HD and CON 32 (or 33)

I'm assuming DR25/+5; SR35; Tanar'ri Qualities and Regeneration 5. Spell-like abilities with at least some 9th-level spells. With stats (on average) 5 less than Asmodeus? 

If so, hes already more akin to CR27 (admittedly - as I perceive it that is) 

Throw in class levels and some special abilities and your talking CR30.


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## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

All right Uppercrust, your getting way to pendantic. Your idea of what happens in the Abyss doesn't have to be the same way as anyone elses.

Go ahead and quote any topic, any page, any source you want. The fact is everything is differant now.

Die, Vecna Die allows WOTC a blank slate canon-wise to modify anything, about anyone, about anywhere in reguards to D&D.

The Lady of Pain reorganized the multiverse. Planes of existance were destroyed, races were destroyed, blah, blah, blah. History past and present are for ever changed.

In short, WOTC pulled a Crisis on Infinite Earths story line and now are free to rewrite anything they want, and they can't be wrong. Because They can restate anything. 

Now I know you can say, I reject that work or even, everyone I know rejects that work, but it doesn't matter. They can justify anything they want and you don't have a leg to stand on. They can beat this like a dead horse. (For that matter, anyone could.)

So using continuity to base your arguement on politics, statistics or anything else is pointless. 

Personally, I'm glad Orcus is even in the books, He had been destroyed in 2e continuity. Now he's back. It looks like anything could happen....


>>>>Que the evil forboding music<<<<<

Why it almost like any villian could return.


----------



## Flexor the Mighty! (Oct 9, 2002)

UK's vision of the abyss is pretty much the same as mine.  Personal power is the final say, if any demon shows weakness of any sort then he will be fighting those below him until he shows his own power, or is dead.


----------



## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Um, UK's argument is based on the nature of Chaos & Evil, not on WotC's (lack of) multiverse Continuity!

The CE-gang LE-Syndicate analogy sounds right to me.  But it's a question of what the alignments mean, demons being the epitomy of CE.  You can argue that CE isn't necessarily ganglike, but that's a different question.


----------



## Nightfall (Oct 9, 2002)

Boy are we having fun or what?!  In any case I feel bad for old Greymarch there. Grey, you need another group man. SERIOUSLY. 

As for what I think, well I side with Krusty, BUT I also stick with good old Scott/Grazz't, since I prefered his ORIGINAL conversions when they were CR 65 and such.  But that's just me. 

As for what the Abyss is like. I just know only one place. Vangal's Domain. Best damn bloodsport period!


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## coyote6 (Oct 9, 2002)

If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power, then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered; otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler, or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).

However, there's no ultimate ruler of the Abyss. Also, they are not all equally powerful (no edition of D&D has had them equally powerful, and the BoVD seems not to have changed that). 

Therefore, I don't see how the premise (that Abyssal politics are about personal physical/supernatural power) can be correct. There must be more to it than Personal Might; there have to be alliances (constantly shifting, constantly being betrayed), which means there has to be intrigue, deception, and manipulation. Politics, in other words.

And that's not really measurable by CR, AFAIK.

BTW, I think the image of street gangs as being run by the toughest guy isn't actually correct, at least not for a "toughness" defined physically (e.g., strong, durable, etc.; and that definition seems the closest to ranking demon lords on raw personal power). From the gang bangers I've known & read about, it's mostly about respect (or, perhaps more accurately, fear). Being physically tough gets you some respect & fear, but there's no one in the world tough enough to survive a few rounds of 00 buckshot to the face -- and guns aren't hard to come by. So being muy macho isn't sufficient by itself. You have to be cunning, ruthless, lucky, and rely on your pals to watch your back. Just being able to beat up anybody in your gang is not enough.

Actually, I'm not sure comparing gang politics to demon prince politics works very well anyways, since law enforcement is a part of gang life, and I can't think of any equivalent for demons. At least, no material (from any edition, or mythology) recall has portrayed celestial forces as often kicking in the doors of Abyssal fortresses and busting demon lords for various crimes, or otherwise acting like cops vs. gangs. So there's nobody for demons to rat one another out to -- which is a large part of any criminal enterprise these days.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi herald! 



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *All right Uppercrust, your getting way to pendantic.*




I'm sorry; I must be in the wrong place I thought this was a message board. 



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Your idea of what happens in the Abyss doesn't have to be the same way as anyone elses.*




True, but its consistent with a truly chaotic evil society model and therefore makes sense applied therein.

I don't recall forcing anyone to adopt my ideas?



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Go ahead and quote any topic, any page, any source you want. The fact is everything is differant now.*




Well actually the Abyss is still the reservoir of chaotic evil spirits and the ultimate embodiment of that moral (or rather immoral) creed.

So not everthing is different.



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Die, Vecna Die allows WOTC a blank slate canon-wise to modify anything, about anyone, about anywhere in reguards to D&D.
> 
> The Lady of Pain reorganized the multiverse. Planes of existance were destroyed, races were destroyed, blah, blah, blah. History past and present are for ever changed.*




Yet amazingly in the 3rd Ed. Manual of the Planes we pretty much return the cosmological _status quo_.

So none of the above made a bit of difference.



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *In short, WOTC pulled a Crisis on Infinite Earths story line and now are free to rewrite anything they want, and they can't be wrong. Because They can restate anything.*




Of course. They have as much right to restate anything as I have to inquire why such changes were made. 



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Now I know you can say, I reject that work or even, everyone I know rejects that work, but it doesn't matter. They can justify anything they want and you don't have a leg to stand on. They can beat this like a dead horse. (For that matter, anyone could.)*




Incorrect. They can STATE many points; whether those points are JUSTIFIED is a different matter altogether.

eg. If the Superman comic showed the titular hero eating kryptonite that may become canon - but until its explained its not justified.



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *So using continuity to base your arguement on politics, statistics or anything else is pointless. *




Well actually I used logic and real world precedents to determine the socio-politics of the Abyss reinforced by examples from 1st Ed. cosmology (which, unlike 2nd Ed. cosmology, made sense).

Regarding statistics; continuity with Deities & Demigods is obviously a valid point, though I have stated many times I am happy with the measure of power in the Book of Vile Darkness.

Graz'zts (perceived*) relative weakness amongst his once peers disappoints on an admittedly personal level (given the seeming return to 1st Ed. continuity for the most part within 3rd Ed.), I am simply curious as to the reasoning behind it, if any?

*I won't know until I have his stats.


----------



## Nightfall (Oct 9, 2002)

*likes to point out that Krusty ISN'T pendentic just a perfectionist.  * Not that it's a bad thing Krusty.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power, then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered; otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over. Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler, or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).*



Heh. Exactly. You're onto something very important -- why all this stuff doesn't actually make any sense.


> *Therefore, I don't see how the premise (that Abyssal politics are about personal physical/supernatural power) can be correct. There must be more to it than Personal Might; there have to be alliances (constantly shifting, constantly being betrayed), which means there has to be intrigue, deception, and manipulation. Politics, in other words.*



Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust. In order for there to be intrigue, there has to be honesty. In order for there to be manipulation, there has to be loyalty. None of those qualities exist in the Abyss, so there are no politics. There can't be -- demons aren't capable of trusting each other, so deception, manipulation etc are out. Therefore, only personal power can be the judge, and as you pointed out, immortal beings ought to have had all their Big Fights long ago. There ought to be only one Demon Lord. Only one demon, really.


> *You have to be cunning, ruthless, lucky, and rely on your pals to watch your back.*



Would YOU trust a demon to watch your back? Nobody would -- not even another demon. We're getting dangerously close to the notion that Evil is an unworkable concept, here. Demons can't trust each other, ever, so they can't manipulate each other, so it all comes down to one demon's ability to force another demon to do it's bidding which comes down to physical power. And so, the whole issue ought to have been settled millenia ago. There's one Demon Lord who has a host of constructs and other minions without independent thought who won't ever get uppity ideas. He's destroyed everyone who might ever be a potential rival or threat to his power.

Like the private says in Aliens: "It's the only way to be sure."


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

Greets, enkrusted one,



> *
> Nope. Doesn't wash.*




Just cause you say so, eh?

Sorry, THAT doesn't wash.



> *
> If Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's 'turf' and Graz'zt flees that represents a loss of face.*




Then when Demogorgon dies from the trap Grazzt set, that's a bigger loss of face. And Graz'zt earns even more face, because he has shown that even when you think he's down, he's not necessarily. That makes for a much more indelible fear (and much likely to lead one to a durable position as a demon lord) than to merely rely on physical power, as the mere physical will have your lackey turning on you the moment that they think you are vulnerable. Fear of trickery leaves your lackeys fearful even when they THINK you are vulnerable.

There is more than one way to win a fight. Going toe-to-toe is not always the way it gets done. If a demon lord sets up treachery upon treachery and contingency upon contingency, pretty soon his underlings learn that crossing him is not wise and are kept in line. Those same treacheries and contingencies can be used to even the playing field, too.

It does _not_ always come down to a toe-to-toe fight, and I imagine that most demon lords that held that philosophy would be ex-demon lords before long.

It comes down to conflating chaos with stupidity again. Yes, chaos respects fear instead of laws and social conventions. But there is more than one way to earn fear.



> _S'mon wrote:_
> *Um, UK's argument is based on the nature of Chaos & Evil*




It's more specific than that. It is based on his own personal interperetation of abyssal politics which tries to universalize a singular example of CE behavior to encompass the entierety of abyssal politics.


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Actually whats more likely is that Demogorgon invades Graz'zt's territory backed by a million strong army of demons. Graz'zts equally strong forces engage them but Demogorgon is able to roll through Graz'zts strongest units and champions like a hot knife through butter. Graz'zt can't engage Demogorgon personally since he'll just get crushed so the two-headed one is left to wreak havoc throughout Graz'zts strongest troops.*




But you know what?  Demogorgon's _not_ going to do that.  Because he's not stupid.

As soon as he assembles his millions of demons and marches on Graz'zt, Orcus is going to assemble _his_ millions of demons and put a hurting on the ol'double-header while he isn't there to do anything about it.

Demogorgon might walk though Graz'zt's champions and such, but that doesn't mean he'll come through unharmed - and he _definitely_ won't come through the fight with Graz'zt unharmed.  And when he limps his sorry tentacled behind back home afte rwinning the fight, guess who's waiting?  It's his good buddy Orcus, who is fresh and rested and unharmed, armed with a full complement of spells and ready to make Demogorgon suck the pain pipe.

So, Graz'zt doesn't have to be tough enough to beat anyone that comes his way - he just has to be tough enough to make it a bad idea to attack him.  Neither he nor Orcus nor Demogorgon is going to make a definitive move against the other two unless he believes he can beat _both_ of them...and whatever other challenger is going to rise up afterwards.

J


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## Celebrim (Oct 9, 2002)

Barsoomcore:  I agree, with the exception that it is not the idea of a demon that is unworkable.  The idea that is unworkable is a demon ruler.  The whole notion that there are demon suzeraines with armies and leutinants and such is ridiculous.  None of the attributes involved with leadership or politics are possible in the Abyss.  Everything comes down to intimidation and mistrust.  As it is said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand', and what is the Abyss but a house divided by definition?

And there is a certain sense in which the idea of rulership is one that is foriegn to the Abyss by definition.  The notion is convienent in a story sense but ultimately as much of a betrayal of the concept as a 'Borg Queen'.

It is entirely possible for thier to be a CE ruler and yet have that ruler be an epitome of CEness.  But, it is not possible to have a CE ruler with a large number of CE subjects and have both be embodiments of pure CE.  No matter how intimidating X demon prince may be, all his intimidation can accomplish is greater mistrust, greater resentment, and greater disunity.  To accomplish something else is to make the claim that an embodiment of perfect CE caused weal, benifice, cohesion, and law as a result of his actions - which is a clear contridiction.  A ruler of demons could only 'rule' on two condiations: 1) that he did not impose his own will, but if that were the case he would not be truly CE, or 2) that he was personally present and capable of forcing the self-interested subject to act in his self interest.  But ultimately, two fails because any subject so oppressed would quickly rebel and leave the first demons sphere of influence or join some being who felt a similar personal grudge.

Cowardice provides only temporary relief from the problem.  If the demons do not band together against thier oppressor because they are not willing to risk sacrificing themselves even on thier own behalf, then they are also far too cowardly to risk sacrificing themselves on someone elses behalf.


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## coyote6 (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust. In order for there to be intrigue, there has to be honesty. In order for there to be manipulation, there has to be loyalty. *




I have to disagree with that, at least in terms of the real world. 

You can deceive someone who doesn't trust you, lie to and plot against people who are lying and plotting against you. And people who are loyal to pretty much only themselves (I'm talking about people who don't really have a grasp of what "loyalty" means) can be manipulators and manipulatees (both at the same time). That's common. Sometimes, deceitful and dishonest people are the easiest to manipulate (aka "fool"); they can be easy to lie to (despite the fact that they seem to assume that "everyone lies"), but even if they assume everything you say is a lie, you can use that to manipulate them anyways. Ever known a crack or heroin addict? They will lie, cheat, steal, and manipulate; but they also get lied to, cheated, stolen from, and manipulated -- all the time. 

Heck, I suppose I could introduce you to some sample persons that have exhibited these behaviors, if you wanted to meet 'em; but I'd rather skip that hypothetical future family reunion.  

Now, you can say that demons aren't like humans, that no demon ever trusts anyone or anything, due to their perfectly and completely chaotic and evil natures, and thus no intrigue is possible, then continue with your argument. 

However, that doesn't fit the facts we have about demons (e.g., there are demon lords and demon armies and so forth). Perhaps that implies that demons are not actually perfectly chaotic and perfectly evil? 

(Also, saying that a chaotic & evil nature makes one essentially un-foolable implies that being chaotic and evil makes one immune to stupidity, which seems quite counter-intuitive to me.)


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust.*




Not there doesn't. All that is necessary is for you to get an someone to act on something that is not true. Self confidence and arrogance are factors in that, and there is plenty of that to go around in the abyss.


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Actually detailed under my system those characters would have a different Challenge Rating! *




That's great, but we *are* talking about WOTC's system right now.  (I think to avoid confusion, you should call yours the Krust Rating, or KR!)

Since you don't have Grazzt's stats (or Orcus' or Demogorgon's), we don't know the KR for any of them - only the CR.  And as I have shown, the CR is not a valid method of comparing two monsters.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *I don't think I have encountered a monster with localised spell resistance?*




It was a hypothetical monster created solely for the purpose of illustrating the example.  There's precedent in the rules for localized effects of various sorts - spells that give bonuses vs. evil spells, etc.



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *As far as I can tell:
> 
> Dire Lion CR6 (just barely)
> Weretiger CR7
> ...




And yet, the weretiger is still likely to defeat the Dire Tiger, even tho it's KR is lower! You are only giving more evidence for my point - Challenge Rating - or Krust Rating - is insufficient for a "who'd win".

If it _were_ sufficient, then it would be the only stat needed in the game...

J


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## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper Krust said



> I'm sorry; I must be in the wrong place I thought this was a message board.




I'm sure I didn't miss anthing on the FAQ that you should be pendantic on the board.



> Incorrect. They can STATE many points; whether those points are JUSTIFIED is a different matter altogether.




Oh no, I'm sure pretty sure that they can actually justify them, weather you like it or not is up to you. Any way you slice it though, it's justified.




> Yet amazingly in the 3rd Ed. Manual of the Planes we pretty much return the cosmological status quo.




Ah, but that's where you arguement starts to fail. You see FR follows a completly differant cosmology. The planes follow a "Great Tree" instead of a "Great Wheel" concept. The only way these cosmologies intersect is at the "Shadow Plane" (Provided that you use this optional rule) 

All planes that share the same name are infact seperate and differant. 

At this point the realms have no direct connection to the typical planescape campaign setting as originally presented.



> Well actually I used logic and real world precedents to determine the socio-politics of the Abyss reinforced by examples from 1st Ed.





You use real world presedents? Are you telling me that you've visited the real Abyss? (Nevermind, I don't want to know)

The fact is that politics can work in the abyss and it does. Grazzat for could play both ends against the middle, which would make more sense than anything. He could hamstring his opponents into thinking that other threats exist that prevent his removal. 

Whatever you choose as an explination is fine. Insisting that stats balance what roleplaying should be able to explain is rather pointless.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power, then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered; otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over.*



I don't think anyone cut out social and/or political elements.  However, it's the phyiscal/magical/psionic power that dominates the "politics" of The Abyss to a far greater degree than in the Nine Hells or Gehenna. 

As for the Demon Princes being equally ranked, I think that's part of the concern.  If the likes of Graz'zt, historically ranked with Orcus and Demogorgon (and stronger than Lolth, I might add), is now suddenly significantly lower in strength (as his CR suggests), then there's a problem.  And remember, even among gangs and thugs, there are "rules" (which, admittedly are broken when convenient) that govern why there isn't one leader.  Quite frankly, in a Chaotic system there can't be one leader.  Chaos is about change, conflict, contrast, and so on (wasn't trying to alliterate, but I think that was poetic).  Among the cess-pool of CE, a few individuals have risen that command the respect of trillions of Demons... but there's not one guiding force because the nature of Chaos doesn't allow this.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler, or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).*



The latter is what concerns some people, including myself.  They aren't roughly equal in power according to the CR.  Now, I disagree with my august colleague (assuming I comprehend what he's said), U_K, in thinking that CR is the sole measurement between beings.  It is a measure of threat against a party of mortals.  For example, most people with whom I've interacted agree that Pit Fiends (CR 16) would probably beat a Marilith (CR 17) and a Balor (CR 18)... but the Pit Fiend is not as directly threatening to a party as the two Demons (Marilith has more attack options, about as many spells, almost as many HD as the PF, while the Balor has an instant kill weapon, and can do damage to those attacking it if they get too close... as well as a few more spells).  

But, I do think that Demon Princes should pose the same level of threat to parties, albeit due to slightly different reasons.  Graz'zt may not be a physical powerhouse, but perhaps his weapons or spell selections could make as or almost as threatening as Demogorgon.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *However, there's no ultimate ruler of the Abyss. Also, they are not all equally powerful (no edition of D&D has had them equally powerful, and the BoVD seems not to have changed that).*



Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt, IIRC, were near the same power level, with Demogorgon clearly out ahead, followed by Graz'zt and Orcus (I think for them, it was about Magic Items and HPs).  So, no one is saying they need to be precisely equal, but they should be closer in power.  By being closer in power, and then applying a limited degree of social mores and norms (an oxymoron to be sure in The Abyss), then one can flesh out how Orcus and Graz'zt manage to maintain their hegemony among the Demon Princes. 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Therefore, I don't see how the premise (that Abyssal politics are about personal physical/supernatural power) can be correct. There must be more to it than Personal Might; there have to be alliances (constantly shifting, constantly being betrayed), which means there has to be intrigue, deception, and manipulation. Politics, in other words.*



Again, I don't think anyone said that physical prowess was the sole element... but it is the dominant one.  Using the street gang analogy I suggested earlier, there are many rival gangs out there that, for a variety of reason, do make treaties and deals about turf, appearance, and so-on.  The leader is the strongest and most charismatic... although not necessarily the smartest or most diplomatic.  His authority is derived through his physical capabilities and his force of personality that backs up the physical rather than takes precedence to it (as in the Nine Hells).  He doesn't have to get involved in intrigue or deception; disobey and get pummelled or killed.  He doesn't have to manipulate any more than promising punishment for disobedience.  So long as he maintains the threat of pain and his ability to personally back it up, he leads the gang.  



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *And that's not really measurable by CR, AFAIK.*



One could say that it is based upon the number of and relative powers a being can summon or call.  Afterall, this is included in the stats for Demons and Devils in the Monster Manual[/i].



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *BTW, I think the image of street gangs as being run by the toughest guy isn't actually correct, at least not for a "toughness" defined physically (e.g., strong, durable, etc.; and that definition seems the closest to ranking demon lords on raw personal power). From the gang bangers I've known & read about, it's mostly about respect (or, perhaps more accurately, fear). Being physically tough gets you some respect & fear, but there's no one in the world tough enough to survive a few rounds of 00 buckshot to the face -- and guns aren't hard to come by. So being muy macho isn't sufficient by itself. You have to be cunning, ruthless, lucky, and rely on your pals to watch your back. Just being able to beat up anybody in your gang is not enough.*



In Costner's [/i]Wyatt Earp[/i], the title character, by himself and with a shotgun only, disperses an angry lynch mob.  They knew his reputation.  They knew how physically dangerous he was.  He had a high reputation.  Although I think Earp in this movie was LN with Good tendancies, the encounter required that he deviate from his alignment by reacting in an unlawful way.  

The Demon Princes are no different except they do this all the time.  There is fear and respect because they promise a beat down and destruction if disobeyed.  They are intelligent and enough of their ploys have worked, further intensifying the fleeting loyalty of their subordinants.  And, they can wither a ticked Balor with a stern gaze.  I don't see how this isn't consistent with street gangs.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Actually, I'm not sure comparing gang politics to demon prince politics works very well anyways, since law enforcement is a part of gang life, and I can't think of any equivalent for demons. At least, no material (from any edition, or mythology) recall has portrayed celestial forces as often kicking in the doors of Abyssal fortresses and busting demon lords for various crimes, or otherwise acting like cops vs. gangs. So there's nobody for demons to rat one another out to -- which is a large part of any criminal enterprise these days. *



A Demon can turn coat on its boss.  A Demon can provide information to a rival.  A Demon can forget to follow a command.  A Demon can engage in most of the things associated with a street gang.  And, like the police, enemies to Demons (including Devils, Celestials, etc) deal with them when they can but aren't dumb enough to venture into their territory unless absolutely necessary.  

The analogy works.


----------



## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> Demogorgon, Orcus, and Graz'zt, IIRC, were near the same power level, with Demogorgon clearly out a*head*




Hehehe - just had to quote that before someone else did 

IceBear


----------



## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hehehe - just had to quote that before someone else did
> 
> IceBear *


----------



## coyote6 (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *The analogy works. *




Hmm. Not for me.

Places like Afghanistan between the collapse of the Soviets' puppet government & the rise of the Taliban, or Somalia about 10 years ago would be analogies I might find more persuasive and appropriate.


----------



## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> Ah, but in order for there to be deception, there has to be trust. In order for there to be intrigue, there has to be honesty. In order for there to be manipulation, there has to be loyalty. None of those qualities exist in the Abyss, so there are no politics. There can't be -- demons aren't capable of trusting each other, so deception, manipulation etc are out. *




I disagree.  Demons will group together when mutually beneficial for both parties.  One form of deception and manipulation involves making sure it always *seems* beneficial for people to do things your way, even when it isn't.  You discover people's selfish desires and ambitions and you twist them to your own ends.  This does not require lawful behavior and easily allows for someone weak combat-wise to gain great power through political savvy.

There is also the "Risk" factor.  If someone gets too strong, unlikely alliances form because everyone gets worried and then team up to lay the smack down.  If Demogorgon takes over one third of the abyss, do you think that Orcus and Gra'azt are going to be worried about each other or about Demogorgon?

In this way, pushing people around and showing *too much* power is stupid and suicidal.  It's a dangerous and manipulative game that you need to balance carefully.  This requires political savvy, and whoever has the most ability in this regard is going to come out ahead, even if he can't physically defeat his enemies.

Again, one important aspect of this unsteady balance of power is the manipulation of common interests.  Chaotic evil does not mean you never ally with anyone, ever.  That's just stupid.



			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> *Barsoomcore:  I agree, with the exception that it is not the idea of a demon that is unworkable.  The idea that is unworkable is a demon ruler.  The whole notion that there are demon suzeraines with armies and leutinants and such is ridiculous.  None of the attributes involved with leadership or politics are possible in the Abyss.  Everything comes down to intimidation and mistrust.  As it is said, 'A house divided against itself cannot stand', and what is the Abyss but a house divided by definition?
> *




I think you underestimate the extent to which intimidation and mistrust can use fear to build powerful nation-states.  History has shown that this happens time and time again.  Watch the news today for an example.

Again, there is nothing inherently non-chaotic about manipulating common interests to serve your own purposes.  It's perfectly Machiavellian and perfectly chaotic evil.

I don't think it's unbelievable that there are lords and leaders in the abyss.  I do believe that there is not enough fluctuation in the power structure though.  It seems to me that power should shift more frequently between different demon lords and that some of the people in charge now might have been unheard of a millenium ago (or vice versa).  Perhaps a few of the major demon lords have survived for an incredible amount of time for various reasons, but not the majority of them.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Hmm. Not for me.
> 
> Places like Afghanistan between the collapse of the Soviets' puppet government & the rise of the Taliban, or Somalia about 10 years ago would be analogies I might find more persuasive and appropriate. *



Those would work too.  Somalia, with its "warlords," each working through force of personality and his own ability to kill and punish fits well to me.  The difference here is that, initially there was some semblance of unified government that was overthrown, resulting in wide-spread Chaos and violence.  In the Abyss, there never was any unified government.  That would be the major difference.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *Not there doesn't. All that is necessary is for you to get an someone to act on something that is not true. Self confidence and arrogance are factors in that, and there is plenty of that to go around in the abyss. *



But you have to believe me when I tell you something. Even if I point behind you and say, "Look out!" you're only going to turn around and check if you think I'm at least trustworthy enough to not be de facto trying to fool you.

That's not very trustworthy, I'll admit, but the basic point is that deception is only possible if one party trusts the other. In fact, I'd almost define deception as gaining the trust of someone under false pretenses.

Since, if you have any brain at all, you KNOW that a demon is bound to betray you as soon as it suits him, why would you trust a thing he says? So how is he ever going to deceive you? If Graz'zt says, "Hey, don't go that way, there's a huge dragon down there!" My immediate response is to wonder why he doesn't want me to go down there. I KNOW he's not telling me just because he's concerned about my safety, so I immediately start looking for some other motive. He hasn't deceived me, and he certainly hasn't prevented me from going down there. The only way Graz'zt is ever going to be able to prevent anyone from doing anything is by lining them up with his fist and saying, "Do that and it's one-way to the moon, buddy!" Anyone who knows what he is, anyway.

Even if I look down the passage and see that, yep, there's a dragon there alright, I'm still going to try to figure out what it is he's trying to get me to do. I'm not going to just blindly wander down the other passage, thinking, "That Graz'zt, what a good guy."

A demon can not deceive other demons because demons don't trust each other. They have to control one another through pure physical force, and that means that nowadays there ought to be only one.


----------



## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> I don't think anyone cut out social and/or political elements.  However, it's the phyiscal/magical/psionic power that dominates the "politics" of The Abyss to a far greater degree than in the Nine Hells or Gehenna.
> *




I disagree.  It's just about power, any kind of power, and lots of it.  Personal, physical, magical, psionic, political, tactical, diplomatic, economic, geographically strategic, insight into long term strategy, precogniscence, intimidation capability, guile, wile, experience, etc.  You use every tool at your disposal to achieve your own personal goals.  You don't care what you use, how it gets used, or if the ends justify the means.  You do every possible thing you can to attain maximum personal power and selfish gain.  If you can use someone else to your benefit, great.  If serving someone else is the optimal way to attain your goals, great.  If manipulating other people's self interest in order to get them to do the things you want them to do is the best strategy, great.  If walking in yourself and giving a display of great personal power is the best thing to do, great.  Anything and everything as long as it is effective.

Weak demons know that they can't stand alone.  They must subsume some of their self interest in order to gain the substantial protection that a powerful demon lord provides or else they will get rolled over and exploited by those with more power, as there is no longer anything to stop such powerful enemies from doing so.  They serve because it is in their self interest.  If it is no longer in their self interest they will leave this relationship without a moment's hesitation and seize whatever power they can.

Many of these sources of power are not reflected in a stat block.  If Gra'azt has maintained a power base similar to Demogorgon and Orcus, apparently he has an advantage in some of these undefined traits.  His description as a lord of deception tends to reinforce this assertion.

Okay, so Gra'azt is not as physically powerful as Demogorgon, so obviously he's going to use means other than direct confrontation to combat him.  If this is successful, he will be displaying his power and underlings will follow him to benefit from his power and protection.  They don't care how he does it, as long as he gets it done.  That's chaotic.  Just obtain your goal by any means necessary.

I'll never buy the notion that physically beating someone down is the only way to enforce power.  It's simply not a true statement.  Any and all means.  The results are what matter.


----------



## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Since, if you have any brain at all, you KNOW that a demon is bound to betray you as soon as it suits him, why would you trust a thing he says?*




Because you believe, independently, that it is in the demon's self interest.  Everything a demon says is not a lie. Everything they do is not a betrayal.  That's just silly.   Truth, lies, betrayal, trust -- these are all tools to be used.  Both parties try to determine which tool is being used at the moment.  At times, both parties benefit.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *Everything a demon says is not a lie. Everything they do is not a betrayal.*



Well of course not. But _anything_ they do may be a betrayal. You'll never know who else is competing for this demon's self-interest, so you'll never know when you're going to wake up and find that he's betrayed you. Why would you ally with such a creature? With a human being, we know that concepts like loyalty and love and honour occasionally at least impel their actions, so we have some justification for trusting that they aren't scheming to destroy us.

But I KNOW Graz'zt is scheming to destroy me. Of course he is. He will never allow me to become a threat to him -- and as soon as someone convinces him that it's possible my threat ratio has outstripped my usefulness, I'm gone. And I have no control over that. Even if I'm not a threat to him, he's still scheming to destroy me because one day I MIGHT be a threat to him.

And if he isn't, he's going to find himself smacked down by someone he didn't think was a threat. Only the most paranoid and the most powerful can survive in this environment, and that means eventually you've only got one, because the MOST paranoid, MOST powerful creature will simply destroy every other sentient creature as a potential threat.


> *Truth, lies, betrayal, trust -- these are all tools to be used.*



Except among demons, because they don't trust each other and they don't tell the truth just because it's the truth. So we can't use that tool. All we have then are lies and betrayal -- both of which require that somebody trust us. Which they don't, so we don't have that option.

Try this: Graz'zt gives a command to a lithesome succubus, asking her to go off and see what Orcus is up to. Now the second that succubus is out of Graz'zt's sight, he has no reason to think she's not happily betraying him like mad. Given that she's Chaotic Evil, she probably is. Why would he believe a single thing she said upon her return? Why would he act upon that information unless he could independently confirm it for himself -- and if he could do that, he didn't need her in the first place. Except as tasteful decor, perhaps.

It doesn't make sense. That's okay, it doesn't have to to be fun, but it doesn't, and that's a fact.


----------



## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

herald said:
			
		

> *You use real world presedents? Are you telling me that you've visited the real Abyss? (Nevermind, I don't want to know)
> *




West Belfast, The Abyss... close enough I'd say.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *It's just about power, any kind of power, and lots of it. Personal, physical, magical, psionic, political, tactical, diplomatic, economic, geographically strategic, insight into long term strategy, precogniscence, intimidation capability, guile, wile, experience, etc. You use every tool at your disposal to achieve your own personal goals. You don't care what you use, how it gets used, or if the ends justify the means. You do every possible thing you can to attain maximum personal power and selfish gain. If you can use someone else to your benefit, great. If serving someone else is the optimal way to attain your goals, great. If manipulating other people's self interest in order to get them to do the things you want them to do is the best strategy, great. If walking in yourself and giving a display of great personal power is the best thing to do, great. Anything and everything as long as it is effective.*






			
				kenjib said:
			
		

> *Truth, lies, betrayal, trust -- these are all tools to be used.  Both parties try to determine which tool is being used at the moment.  At times, both parties benefit. *



What you describe sounds more like Neutral Evil than Chaotic Evil to me.  Neutral Evil is about doing whatever it takes to get what you want.  If it means following rules, fine.  If it means breaking the law, fine.  If it means being loyal and honest for the time being, fine.  If it means betraying a trusted and loyal ally, fine.  

CE is about immediate personal power.  It doesn't wait.  While it may think, it doesn't think long, nor does it plan long.  It's about going in, destoying everything in sight, bullying, and maintaining a turf through sheer power.  It's about never trusting anyone and eliminating those weak enough to trust you.  There are no laws or consistency of rules beyond what the current leader says, and if a lacky can get away with disregarding the leader's rules when they become an impediment, that's what will happen.  Lower ranking Demons live in a mixture of fear and hate under the heels of greater Demons; they obey out of fear, and because the current leader has proven his/her/its strength (which provides sustenance and some modicum of protection within the gang) in maintaining its position of authority.  If something better comes along and the Demon can get to it with no worries, it's gone immediately.  There are never allies, never friends, only future enemies.  There are never rules, just immediate gratification.  If there's a goal, it lasts as long as it doesn't seem something else to wet its appetite.  Anything of value has no meaning and must be torn down... even if the goal is in sight. 

LE is about consolidation, tyranny, control, slavery, and the utter oppression of the spirit and the body.  While NE is about the selfish desire at the expense of others or hopelessness, and while CE is about entropy, destruction, and mindless rage, LE is goal-oriented control that takes everything of value and uses it in pursuit of said goal.  Everything appears to make utter, twisted sense.  It is designed to reward the strongest and sublimate and stomp out the weakest.  It's about justification and proof of anything to promote the cause.  It's about goose-stepping, genocidal maniacs who use laws to justify the existance of an empire, riech, or what-have-you for a given group, putting it above all others; then, within the group, there are further stratifications, all designed to maintain the status quo.  The leaders are entrenched, distrustful, and ready to destroy any opposition within the letter of the law.  They are worshipped and obeyed out of blind loyalty and fear by most underlings.  

While I respect what you're offering, you appear to be clumping all Evil alignments into one group, and that doesn't work.


----------



## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> West Belfast, The Abyss... close enough I'd say.   *




Although Krusty's MP does look (& behave) a lot more like Asmodeus than Demogorgon.


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> But you have to believe me when I tell you something. Even if I point behind you and say, "Look out!" you're only going to turn around and check if you think I'm at least trustworthy enough to not be de facto trying to fool you.
> 
> That's not very trustworthy, I'll admit, but the basic point is that deception is only possible if one party trusts the other.*




Again, this is incorrect. Deception is possible without trust (in others.) I think you are limiting your model situation too much here. You might automatically assume anything I tell you is a lie. That does not mean you cannot be decieved. For example, an enemy may feign weakness. Say you are a head of a gang of abyssal demons, and you see that a power schism has caused a rival gang to be split in two because of infighting; you think this is a chance to strike. But is the whole thing a ruse? Did the enemy (who you never trusted) deliberately sacrifice a few lackeys to goad you into a hasty action? Or are you missing an opportunity for fearing too much?



> *
> Since, if you have any brain at all, you KNOW that a demon is bound to betray you as soon as it suits him, why would you trust a thing he says?*




First off, if you don't have spies and lackeys that will do things you tell them, you will never get ahead in the first place, so if you are paralyzed by fear that a lackey will betray you, you might as well quit you aspirations as a demon lord right there.

The typical way that demons stop lackeys from betraying them, I would imagine, is through fear and by making contingencies for the eventuality that one does betray you.

Now the deception comes when you convince someone that you are cowed and you are not, or are vulnerable, and you are not, both of which are percfectly possible if you are not trusted.


----------



## SSquirrel (Oct 9, 2002)

*gaming in Iowa City*



			
				CobaltGrC said:
			
		

> *Hey Ray Silver are you a student in Iowa City?  My friend and I have been looking for people to game with...
> *




He's not but I am...well West branch technically but close enough   Since I don't remember if my email addr shows here or not, email me at hagen@giant.net


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## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> CE is about immediate personal power.  It doesn't wait.  While it may think, it doesn't think long, nor does it plan long.  It's about going in, destoying everything in sight, bullying, and maintaining a turf through sheer power.*




What is "sheer power"?  It isn't solely the ability to personally give the beat down.  You can use tools to achieve your goals.  There are many facets to power, as I've already said.

Not thinking long term is chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil.


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

> *
> CE is about immediate personal power. It doesn't wait. While it may think, it doesn't think long, nor does it plan long.
> (...)
> CE is about entropy, destruction, and mindless rage,*




Once again, you are conflating chaos and stupidity.

CE can be mindless rage, but it doesn't have to be. CE just has not rules. That's all. You'll never here a demon utter something about some ancient code that the worst of their kind will not betray, nor will they honor any bargain that is not expedient to them. They respect only power and fear, but power and fear wears many faces.


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

Come on S'mon, I said I didn't want to know!


----------



## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> Try this: Graz'zt gives a command to a lithesome succubus, asking her to go off and see what Orcus is up to. Now the second that succubus is out of Graz'zt's sight, he has no reason to think she's not happily betraying him like mad. Given that she's Chaotic Evil, she probably is. Why would he believe a single thing she said upon her return? Why would he act upon that information unless he could independently confirm it for himself -- and if he could do that, he didn't need her in the first place. Except as tasteful decor, perhaps.
> *




You haven't really addressed the crux of my argument, mutual self-interest.  The succubus will only betray Gra'azt if it is in her self interest to do so.  It is his goal to make sure that this is not the case, whether through intimidation or reward.  The key thing missing here is the relationship between the succubus and Gra'azt.  They do have a relationship, and for him to put her in this role, it is obviously defined in such a way that Gra'azt knows that it is likely that she will do what he says.  He also accounts for the fact that she might not, he checks up on her, and even if he can find nothing to be suspicious about, he takes everything she says with a grain of salt.


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## takyris (Oct 9, 2002)

This discussion is silly.  I shall enter it.

By the definition of CE some people are using, any CE creature would be utterly out of luck if placed in a room with treasure and one door leading out, because the TRULY chaotic and evil thing to do would be to fireball the treasure and then run repeatedly into the walls trying to break them because you're too chaotic to use the door.

My understanding -- and your campaign could be different, but I believe my understanding is closer to the core rules -- is that a Chaotic or Evil creature does not HAVE to break rules or cheat or steal.  It simply has no problem whatsoever doing so.  And the creature will inherently tend to distrust laws.  This doesn't mean that they can't follow orders or even be loyal to someone who is a powerful and respected master.

I think that most gamers make Lawful Evil societies that behave in a Chaotic Evil fashion, and then are out of luck on what to do in Chaotic Evil socieites.  In a Lawful Evil society, assassination "just because" should not be the norm.  The society is harsh, rigid, and moving through the ranks requires utter loyalty and ruthlessness.  A Lawful Evil person who tried to get ahead by killing anyone who got in his way would be killed quickly for disturbing the status quo.  Assassination of superiors would only go unpunished if it had the tacit approval of higher-ranking superiors.  Law would rule, and would be ruthlessly wielded to gain advantage.  People who talk about Lawful Evil societies with rampant assassinations and murders in the streets are missing the Lawful aspect of it.  Lawful Evil societies hate civil war, because it's so messy, and it makes tax collection more difficult, so they only go there if it's absolutely the perfect time, and they've got all the backing they need.

In a Chaotic Evil society, like the demons have, you've got rulers.  You've got followers.  And the followers follow for precisely as long as it is to their advantage.  Assassination is acceptible, as long as one can make the kill and still be standing at the end.  And with all their magical abilities, a demon lord's reach is far longer than its physical grasp.

A demon lord could grab a balor and say, "My rule is absolute within my reach, and meaningless outside my reach.  I understand that.  Right now, however, my reach includes you.  Serve me well and faithfully, and you shall occupy my throne when I go on to kill Demogorgon.  And should Demogorgon attempt to pry you away with promises of power, remember that giving in to his wishes would mark you as ambitious enough to cross a greater power -- and such a trait would brand you as dangerous in Demogorgon's eyes, fit only to be used and dispatched quickly."  If I were that balor, chaotic and evil and all that, I would serve the guy who just told me all that well and faithfully -- after all, I'm getting something out of it, I'm learning enough to potentially have cards to play against my current master someday in the future, and I'm riding the coat-tails of power.  It's a good deal for me.

The idea that demons only respect brute force is silly.  If that were true, succubi would be extinct.  Yes, eventually, a CE society will be fully replaced as people rise to the top, get killed or supplanted, and end up as larvae again.  But that doesn't mean it's going to happen quickly by human standards.  Anyone who rises to power is going to be the cream of the crop, the wisest, smartest, most charismatic force of evil that the multiverse has yet seen.  They'll be in charge for awhile, with toadies helping them out, serving faithfully (because no one can make them a better offer that they trust) and they'll use diplomacy, deals (which they'll honor unless it REALLY helps them to break), traps, tricks, and everything they can to keep themselves in power.  

The difference between Chaos and Law isn't that Chaos can't have an organized structure.  It's that the chaotic organized structure is built on pragmatism and not ideals of honor, law, or correct behavior.

-Tacky


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *
> 
> What is "sheer power"?  It isn't solely the ability to personally give the beat down.  You can use tools to achieve your goals.  There are many facets to power, as I've already said.
> 
> Not thinking long term is chaotic stupid, not chaotic evil. *



Sheer power is the power a male lion that has taken over a pride; he comes in and eliminates a rival, he maintains his turf so long as he can prove he's the strongest, most agile, and most prepared, and he only does enough to maintain it, forcing his "lackies" to do his work for him while driving away internal, potential rivals.  His goal is simple: mate with as many females as possible and protect my territory from other male lions and other threatening creatures (like hyena) who may damage my power.  

And, let me clarify by long-term.  A long-term goal by Graz'zt is probably a short-term goal of a Gelugon or Pit Fiend because they are different entities.  LE and NE beings will always have longer term goals because one is trying to create a tyrannical, soulless society of slaves (and this typically takes time and a lot of intriuge), and the latter is trying to get things arranged for itself, regardless of the chaos or order it brings (I think Emperor Palpatine is like this).  Both require more planning than someone who wants to run in, destroy an establishment or structure, and take over.  

What you're suggesting would lead to a point in which there is no distinction in the Evils and there needs to be if one uses an Alignment system.


----------



## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

Well said Tacky, a very insightful analysis.


----------



## coyote6 (Oct 9, 2002)

S'mon said:
			
		

> *Well said Tacky, a very insightful analysis.  *




I liked the opening line best.

The rest was good, too, but that was fine stuff. Almost hong-like, really.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi all! 

I went away for half an hour; returned to see half a dozen threads wanting a peice of me; spent 40 minutes replying to this post by coyote6 and just before I submitted it my computer crashed.

If I didn't laugh I would cry! 

...anyway, time to get back on the saddle.

Consider this an abbreviated version. 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *If Abyssal politics are totally and only about personal physical (as opposed to political or social) power,*




Its about all kinds of power. But that power must be backed at a fundamental level by commensurate personal power.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered;*




The Lord; Prince and Monarch suffixes are courtesy of Gary Gygax.

I'm guessing muckitymuck is a homebrewed title. 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *then every demon lord/prince/monarch/muckitymuck/pick-your-title must be equally powered;*




Yes. I would say the top tier in such a hierarchy are all roughly comparative.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *otherwise they'd have overwhelmed all weaker demons and taken over.*




It seems plausible that most demon habitable layers of the Abyss are under the thrall of the Demon Monarchs - even if it is just through intermediaries.

As in, the Demon Lord who pays lip service to Graz'zt only when hes around.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Demogorgon, Orcus, Graz'zt, and pals should have long ago had the Big Fights, such that either there's One True Ruler,*




Its plausible that at some point in the past the Abyss was unified under one leader - however such sovereignty will be relatively short, given it is the nature of demons to conspire against one another.

If Graz'zt were to gain an upper hand against his struggle with Orcus it would be likely Zuggtmoy (or another Monarch)  would ally with Orcus to prevent Graz'zts power waxing (so as to destabilise the relative balance). Of course once Graz'zt had been beaten back; Orcus and Zuggtmoy would likely fall on each other fighting over the spoils. Demogorgon might ally with Zuggtmoy against Orcus. Orcus allies with Baphomet etc. etc.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *or all the survivors are roughly equally powerful (so that no one can be assured of winning a fight against any other).*




Exactly.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *However, there's no ultimate ruler of the Abyss. Also, they are not all equally powerful (no edition of D&D has had them equally powerful, and the BoVD seems not to have changed that).*




On any given day (1st Ed.) Graz'zt; Demogorgon or Orcus would be capable of defeating either of the others.

However, the chances are they wouldn't provoke a direct confrontation unless they believed they held an advantage of some sorts (which is the whole crux of the Graz'zt should be comparable to Orcus and Demogorgon argument).



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *BTW, I think the image of street gangs as being run by the toughest guy isn't actually correct, at least not for a "toughness" defined physically (e.g., strong, durable, etc.; and that definition seems the closest to ranking demon lords on raw personal power).*




I meant toughest as in most powerful.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *From the gang bangers I've known & read about, it's mostly about respect (or, perhaps more accurately, fear).*




Exactly.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Being physically tough gets you some respect & fear, but there's no one in the world tough enough to survive a few rounds of 00 buckshot to the face -- and guns aren't hard to come by.*




I don't see how that analogy is applicable herein though.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Actually, I'm not sure comparing gang politics to demon prince politics works very well anyways, since law enforcement is a part of gang life, and I can't think of any equivalent for demons. At least, no material (from any edition, or mythology) recall has portrayed celestial forces as often kicking in the doors of Abyssal fortresses and busting demon lords for various crimes, or otherwise acting like cops vs. gangs.*




I could see that happening should the demons become active outside the Abyss.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *So there's nobody for demons to rat one another out to -- which is a large part of any criminal enterprise these days. *




Other Demons of power would seem the obvious choice.


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

Well spoke Takyris.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *Deception is possible without trust (in others.) I think you are limiting your model situation too much here.*



Indeed, I am deliberately using a very weak definition of trust. Let me approach it from another side:

WHENEVER Graz'zt speaks to me, I am going to assume he's lying. I will assume that he's lying until I get independent confirmation that what he says is true. At any event, I will certainly just as much time worrying about WHY he is telling me this than I will about whether or not it's true. And even once I find out that he's telling the truth I will continue to investigate why he is telling me this.

I'm also using a weak definition of "telling" -- this might include behaviour in a battle, evident weakness, and so on.

Now eventually I've got to assume that I've acquired enough information and I have to act. I may be wrong about the information I've acquired but in that case I certainly haven't been deceived -- I'm just wrong.


> *But is the whole thing a ruse? Did the enemy (who you never trusted) deliberately sacrifice a few lackeys to goad you into a hasty action? Or are you missing an opportunity for fearing too much?*



You summarize the problem nicely.


> *First off, if you don't have spies and lackeys that will do things you tell them, you will never get ahead in the first place, so if you are paralyzed by fear that a lackey will betray you, you might as well quit you aspirations as a demon lord right there.*



Again, this is EXACTLY my point. You don't have spies and lackeys who will do things you tell them. You never will. You have potential enemies on all sides who not only MIGHT betray you for their own self-interest, but are in fact LIKELY to do so just because it amuses them. They're Chaotic Evil, right? Would YOU trust them?


> *The typical way that demons stop lackeys from betraying them, I would imagine, is through fear and by making contingencies for the eventuality that one does betray you.*



Sure. Can you do that for every single being in your army? Because, remember, you can't depend on hierarchy to handle things -- you have personally intimidate every single person you want to do something.


> *Now the deception comes when you convince someone that you are cowed and you are not, or are vulnerable, and you are not, both of which are percfectly possible if you are not trusted. *



Okay, but you're only capable of convincing someone of that if they can obtain independent verification. No smart demon is going to charge off just because Orcus LOOKS vulnerable. The first question is always going to be, "Why does he want me to think that?"

All I'm saying is that REAL evil is kind of a silly concept.


----------



## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> Sheer power is the power a male lion that has taken over a pride; he comes in and eliminates a rival, he maintains his turf so long as he can prove he's the strongest, most agile, and most prepared, and he only does enough to maintain it, forcing his "lackies" to do his work for him while driving away internal, potential rivals.  His goal is simple: mate with as many females as possible and protect my territory from other male lions and other threatening creatures (like hyena) who may damage my power.
> *




Lions do not have the same tools at their disposal as demons do.  If they did, they would use them.  As it is, physical force is their primary asset.  Demons, through superior intelligence, have a much wider range of options.  If a demon does not take advantage of these other options and relies only on physical force, he will be utterly destroyed by someone else who does.  Therefore it is utterly essential to the demon's self interest that he use all tools at his disposal, not just personal one-on-one combat power.

In this example you are equating power solely with physical force, which is not an accurate assertion.  As far as beings of inhuman intelligence levels are concerned, the goals presented in your last sentence above can be effectively met through many means other than personally walking up to and killing rivals in one-on-one, mortal, combat.  All we know is that Gra'azt has a lower CR than Demogorgon.  This means that, taken completely out of his context and dropped into a black box, Gra'azt is easier for four player characters in the standard fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue configuration to kill than Demogorgon is.  I don't see how this directly correlates to political power in the Abyss.  There is a very distant correlation, but there are so many other unquantified variables involved that making such connections is not really viable.

As far as rolling all alignments into one, please respond to takyris on that topic, as I think he is more eloquent in that regard than I am and thus I defer to his statement, with which I agree.


----------



## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Can you do that for every single being in your army? Because, remember, you can't depend on hierarchy to handle things -- you have personally intimidate every single person you want to do something.
> *




Right, however:
1) With CR 24, Graz'zt has enough power to cow every rank-and-file demon in the book.
2) Intimidation of direct damage by Graz'zt in one on one combat is not the only kind of intimidation that exists.



> *Okay, but you're only capable of convincing someone of that if they can obtain independent verification. No smart demon is going to charge off just because Orcus LOOKS vulnerable. The first question is always going to be, "Why does he want me to think that?"*




Right. Which makes abyssal politics like a REALLY high stakes poker game. Sure, your enemy can bluff, and if you fall for it, he can win whether or not he has the clout to back up his bluff. But if he's not bluffing, he can lose big time if you call his bluff.

And demon lords are really good card players...



> *All I'm saying is that REAL evil is kind of a silly concept. *




Perhaps. But then, perhaps sitting around a table pretending you are wizards and warriors defeating evil is silly, too.


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## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> Again, this is EXACTLY my point. You don't have spies and lackeys who will do things you tell them. You never will. You have potential enemies on all sides who not only MIGHT betray you for their own self-interest, but are in fact LIKELY to do so just because it amuses them. They're Chaotic Evil, right? Would YOU trust them?
> *




So you're saying that your lackey is likely to betray you even when it is starkly opposed to their own self interest, just because it's fun?  That sounds like chaotic stupid to me.


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## Celebrim (Oct 9, 2002)

Because, if the Succubus believed that she could obtain the most good for herself by not betraying Graz'zt and instead by being loyal to him, then the Succubus would be LE and not CE.

Imagine Graz'zt giving a speach, 'If we all just worked together...' or 'If we just trust each other...' or 'Let's form an alliance and we will be more powerful than we would be acting alone!' It wouldn't happen, because the place where they believe that is over in the Nine Hells.

Because the Succubus is CE her default mental state, the assumption upon which all her actions are based on, is that the most success and personal fulfillment is achieved when she is rebelious, disobedient, self-serving, disloyal and what not.

Graz'zt, if he bothers to send out a spy at all, sends it out knowing that the spy is attempting to betray him to whoever he is spying on, and attempting to peddle itself and its information to both parties in an attempt to maximize what it gains from the affair.  Graz'zt knows this of course, and that the only thing he can certainly trust in is that his spy is not trustworthy, and that his opponent, being no fool, will not trust the information recieved by the spy either.  In fact, Graz'zt probably knows that if he sends a spy out, that there is a very good chance that as soon as the spy is out of sight, that it goes off and does its own thing because it doesn't trust Graz'zt to reward it, nor does it love Graz'zt enough (and indeed at all) to risk its precious hide on a dangerous mission that ultimately is serving Graz'zt's best interests and not its own.  Certainly, if the spy thinks that Graz'zt is capable of finding him again, the spy will report at the appointed time, but this report is just as likely to be complete fabrications as anything else.  And it will hardly matter anyway, because Graz'zt will not believe the report, or that the spy is being loyal, or that the spy was not tricked, whether the report is true or not.  In fact, the more truthful the report actually appeared to be, the more certain Graz'zt would be that he had been betrayed, because no demon would tell the truth except to lie, and no demon would prefer the truth to a lie except when the truth would serve to create a betrayal.  If the demon was telling the truth, then it is certain that it is doing so for ulterior motives of the foulest sort. And the reverse is true, the more that Graz'zt attempted to gain the trust of the Succubi with gifts and favors, the more certain that the Succubi would be either that Graz'zt was weak and foolish and could be betrayed or that Graz'zt was preparing to betray her.  Which is not to say that the Succubi wouldn't try to cozen out of Graz'zt gifts and favors.  And on the other hand, the more brutally that Graz'zt treated the Succubi, the more she might respect and fear him, but the more she would hate him and seek to have him destroyed so that she might more easily advance her own position.  After all, why would a self interested person willingly serve a strong master, when they could more easily avail themselves of the resources of a weak master?

The more I think about it, the more I think it impossible that we could understand the 'society' of truly CE beings, because for one thing such a 'society' would not exist.


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## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *You haven't really addressed the crux of my argument, mutual self-interest.*



My apologies. I will attempt to do so.


> *The succubus will only betray Gra'azt if it is in her self interest to do so.  It is his goal to make sure that this is not the case, whether through intimidation or reward.*



Right. But of course he has no way of knowing who else is intimidating or rewarding her, so he has no way of judging what she thinks is in her own self-interest, so he has no way of feeling like he can trust her.

In contrast to human society where we have such things as love and honour and loyalty to help us feel like we can trust each other.


> *They do have a relationship, and for him to put her in this role, it is obviously defined in such a way that Gra'azt knows that it is likely that she will do what he says.*



Well, then Graz'zt is a fool, because, being a demon, it's NOT likely she will do what he says. My point is that there's no way for him to be justified in feeling that she will likely do what he says, so if he's got a brain, he will NEVER trust her at all. In which case she's pretty much useless to him. Except, as I said, as decor.

Human beings can feel that they are justified in thinking that others will do what they say because human beings are capable of love and loyalty and honour. Demons are not and so none of those reasons can apply. Graz'zt knows that as soon as the succubus gets a better offer she will turn on him -- and in fact, being the incarnation of Chaotic Evil, she'd think it FUN to turn on him. She'd actually go out LOOKING for offers. So why would he ever trust anything she ever says, unless he's watching her every second? And I don't care what is CR is, he can't watch everyone all the time, so he's unable to trust anyone who isn't within reach of his ability to destroy.

So even mutual self-interest is no means for demons to trust one another, because they can never judge their own ability to determine each other's self-interest, except for the case in which their personal power allows them to control the fate of another.


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## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

> In this example you are equating power solely with physical force, which is not an accurate assertion. As far as beings of inhuman intelligence levels are concerned, the goals presented in your last sentence above can be effectively met through many means other than personally walking up to and killing rivals in one-on-one, mortal, combat. All we know is that Gra'azt has a lower CR than Demogorgon. This means that, taken completely out of his context and dropped into a black box, Gra'azt is easier for four player characters in the standard fighter, cleric, wizard, rogue configuration to kill than Demogorgon is. I don't see how this directly correlates to political power in the Abyss. There is a very distant correlation, but there are so many other unquantified variables involved that making such connections is not really viable.




Well spoke, kenjib. Very well done.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

takyris said:
			
		

> *By the definition of CE some people are using, any CE creature would be utterly out of luck if placed in a room with treasure and one door leading out, because the TRULY chaotic and evil thing to do would be to fireball the treasure and then run repeatedly into the walls trying to break them because you're too chaotic to use the door.*



I agree that it looks this way, but that's not what I'm suggesting (and I don't if anyone else on this board is suggesting this either).

A Chaotic evil person in a room full of treasure would take it and probably use it immediately or as soon as possible to make him/her stronger and will kill anyone trying to tax him.  A NE person would probably consider what benefit the money will grant based upon it's goal to make himself happy... be that spend it immediately, or use it for some other purpose down the line.  A LE person would probably try to find a way to keep and save the money without the authorities knowing and taxing him, invest it, and then use the dividends to pay someone to kill an enemy.

This does not imply stupidity, but differences in ethical perception.  Fireballing the treasure would be plain stupid and of no value to the CE person.  It would not empower him or make him stronger.



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *I think that most gamers make Lawful Evil societies that behave in a Chaotic Evil fashion, and then are out of luck on what to do in Chaotic Evil socieites.  In a Lawful Evil society, assassination "just because" should not be the norm.  The society is harsh, rigid, and moving through the ranks requires utter loyalty and ruthlessness.  A Lawful Evil person who tried to get ahead by killing anyone who got in his way would be killed quickly for disturbing the status quo.  Assassination of superiors would only go unpunished if it had the tacit approval of higher-ranking superiors.  Law would rule, and would be ruthlessly wielded to gain advantage.  People who talk about Lawful Evil societies with rampant assassinations and murders in the streets are missing the Lawful aspect of it.  Lawful Evil societies hate civil war, because it's so messy, and it makes tax collection more difficult, so they only go there if it's absolutely the perfect time, and they've got all the backing they need.*



I agree with much of this.  An assassination in a LE environment is probably business-based and politically, rather than personally, motivated.  It's also sanctioned by the powers that be within a law's framework.



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *A demon lord could grab a balor and say, "My rule is absolute within my reach, and meaningless outside my reach.  I understand that.  Right now, however, my reach includes you.  Serve me well and faithfully, and you shall occupy my throne when I go on to kill Demogorgon.  And should Demogorgon attempt to pry you away with promises of power, remember that giving in to his wishes would mark you as ambitious enough to cross a greater power -- and such a trait would brand you as dangerous in Demogorgon's eyes, fit only to be used and dispatched quickly."  If I were that balor, chaotic and evil and all that, I would serve the guy who just told me all that well and faithfully -- after all, I'm getting something out of it, I'm learning enough to potentially have cards to play against my current master someday in the future, and I'm riding the coat-tails of power.  It's a good deal for me.*



Very eloquent and very well said.  

However, in the end, the Balor is thinking about doing what it can to overthrow his master.  He's not loyal, isn't thinking about honor or the opportunity offered, and is chafing under the Demon Prince.  In LE societies, there is loyalty and not everyone is interested in individual power, but in using the law to protect one's interests.  That Balor will eventually seek to have its own personal power and independence at the expense of the support and structure it has with the Demon Prince.



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *The idea that demons only respect brute force is silly.  If that were true, succubi would be extinct.  Yes, eventually, a CE society will be fully replaced as people rise to the top, get killed or supplanted, and end up as larvae again.  But that doesn't mean it's going to happen quickly by human standards.  Anyone who rises to power is going to be the cream of the crop, the wisest, smartest, most charismatic force of evil that the multiverse has yet seen.  They'll be in charge for awhile, with toadies helping them out, serving faithfully (because no one can make them a better offer that they trust) and they'll use diplomacy, deals (which they'll honor unless it REALLY helps them to break), traps, tricks, and everything they can to keep themselves in power.*



Weaker individuals in a CE environment won't go extinct so long as they find a useful niche.  In _Escape from New York_ (a movie I don't really care for), there are weak people in this CE city that are alive.  They exist because they have their uses for the time being.  Stepping out of line mean instant reprisals.    



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *The difference between Chaos and Law isn't that Chaos can't have an organized structure.  It's that the chaotic organized structure is built on pragmatism and not ideals of honor, law, or correct behavior.
> -Tacky *



I will concede this point (although I think it's inferred in my Lion analogy in which pragmatism requires that a defeated male lion will usually flee and allow its young to die when overthrown by rivals).

Very well done, Tacky.


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## Psion (Oct 9, 2002)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> *Because, if the Succubus believed that she could obtain the most good for herself by not betraying Graz'zt and instead by being loyal to him, then the Succubus would be LE and not CE.*




Uh, no.

She is chaotic; you does not beleive there is any value in following laws and traditions. That does not mean that she will betray him if she thinks it will diminish her power or get her killed. That's not chaotic evil, that's chaotic stupid.


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## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *So you're saying that your lackey is likely to betray you even when it is starkly opposed to their own self interest, just because it's fun?*



I'm not saying that at all. The proof is, I didn't say that.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *Lions do not have the same tools at their disposal as demons do.  If they did, they would use them.  As it is, physical force is their primary asset.  Demons, through superior intelligence, have a much wider range of options.  If a demon does not take advantage of these other options and relies only on physical force, he will be utterly destroyed by someone else who does.  Therefore it is utterly essential to the demon's self interest that he use all tools at his disposal, not just personal one-on-one combat power.
> 
> In this example you are equating power solely with physical force, which is not an accurate assertion. *




Very good points, all around, and I'll admit that it could appear that my comments suggest that physical power is the only power.  That's not my intention.  However, as I've already stated, the _primary_ drive for a Demon's authority does lie in its physical power to a degree far greater than that of Devils.  

CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority:  physical power.  Everything else is secondary.  Yes, Graz'zt is crafty and he will use his considerable intellect to maintain his power; however, he also knows that he much be able to show his strength, not just suggest it.  He must show that he can destroy, throw down, and beat down with the best of them to maintain his status in The Abyss.  His intellect is like a lion's roar.  Okay, other Demons hear it, but eventually, the roar is not going to stop someone from making you back it up.


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## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *My point is that there's no way for him to be justified in feeling that she will likely do what he says, so if he's got a brain, he will NEVER trust her at all. In which case she's pretty much useless to him. Except, as I said, as decor.
> *




Please correct me if this is not the crux of your argument.

Okay, so far we have an example of Asmodeus' stats.  His intelligence score is 30.  I would hazard to guess that Gra'azt's intelligence is pretty darned high.  Heck, until we see the stats for all we know it could be far higher than both Demogorgon and Orcus (which would easily help to balance him out with them).  A succubus has an intelligence of 16.

A succubus has a high intelligence for a human.  Gra'azt has an unfathomably inhuman intelligence and wisdom.  I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that he can reasonably predict the succubus' behavior.  He's going to run mental circles around her and manipulate her into doing what he wants.  Okay, he can't see everyone at once, this is true.  There is still a heirarchy though.  He controls a group of marliths.  The marliths control lesser demons.  There are lesser betrayals but only the high level ones matter, and these ones *are* involving people that he can observe on a direct level.

These webs of deception and trickery are all part of a great game.  If Gra'azt gives up and doesn't even play he loses by default.  It's a great puzzle and he has many means of finding the pieces with the vast magical resources at his disposal.  He can then assemble these pieces and fill in missing spots with his vast and incomprehensible (literally) intelligence.  Playing smart does not make him lawful.  He still does what he wants when he wants.  He still manipulates pawns.  His pawns try to do what they want, when they want, but they aren't as good at it so they get used and manipulated.


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## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> Indeed, I am deliberately using a very weak definition of trust. Let me approach it from another side:
> 
> WHENEVER Graz'zt speaks to me, I am going to assume he's lying. I will assume that he's lying until I get independent confirmation that what he says is true.*




All I can think of is:

"And criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me.  So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you." - Vizzini the Sicilian

The danger you run into there is that maybe Graz'zt _wants_ you to suspect him.  Maybe he _wants_ you to spend your time and your energy trying to get confirmation of what he just told you.  Maybe that will distract you from what he's really doing, or maybe your quest for confirmation will attract someone else's attention to you, or maybe the only way you could stop his plan is to act on what he said immediately - and he's just suckered you into sitting and thinking about it until it's too late to act.  You can really think yourself into a corner this way, because you'll never be able to know that what you're doing isn't exactly what he wants you to do.

And all of those possibilities are manipulating you, even if you don't trust him.

J


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## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority:  physical power.  Everything else is secondary.  *




I suppose this is just an impasse we are at then.  I think that people will fear him because he destroys his opponents.  I don't think they care whether he does it through guile, trickery, or physical force.  If I know that he is deadly and can destroy me easily, I don't really care about what tool he uses to do that.  It doesn't matter if I think he will personally come and destroy me, or I think he will trick Demogorgon into personally coming and destroying me.  Either way I fear him for what he can do to me.  I fear him and thus I obey for fear of crossing him.

It's not about physical power.  It's just about power.  I understand that you don't agree though, and I don't think there is much more room for argument on this particular point, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


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## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority:  physical power.  Everything else is secondary.  Yes, Graz'zt is crafty and he will use his considerable intellect to maintain his power; however, he also knows that he much be able to show his strength, not just suggest it.  He must show that he can destroy, throw down, and beat down with the best of them to maintain his status in The Abyss.  His intellect is like a lion's roar.  Okay, other Demons hear it, but eventually, the roar is not going to stop someone from making you back it up. *




I think we both agree that Graz'zt can probably put the beat-down on any of the non-named demons, right?  He can probably lay a righteous smackdown on many of the other demon lords.  He may not be able to beat on Orcus or Demogorgon physically, but by that point it doesnt matter nearly as much, because he effectively has Orcus as an unwitting ally against Demogorgon and vice versa.  I made a post on this earlier that seems to have been mostly ignored.

Graz'zt doesn't have to be able to beat Orcus or Demogorgon to maintain his position.  He just has to be able to hurt them badly enough that coming after him is a bad idea.  This could be true for any demon - a couple of mariliths might be able to take out a balor, but: which one's going to take the first shot? And can she trust the other one not to betray her, during the fight or afterwards?  Of course not.

Demogorgon, not being stupid, is not going to get into an all-out war with Graz'zt that will leave him vulnerable to Orcus - because Orcus *will* take advantage of such a situation (being no dolt himself).  Essentially, the Demogorgon-Orcus-Graz'zt triangle is a delicately balanced three-way Mexican standoff, because none of them are going to make a decisive move until they are darn good and sure that they can be the one that will be left standing when the smoke clears.

J


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## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> I'm not saying that at all. The proof is, I didn't say that. *




Ah, okay I'm sorry for appearing to put words into your mouth.  I suppose I don't understand the point of your statement then.



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> Again, this is EXACTLY my point. You don't have spies and lackeys who will do things you tell them. You never will. You have potential enemies on all sides who not only MIGHT betray you for their own self-interest, but are in fact LIKELY to do so just because it amuses them. They're Chaotic Evil, right? Would YOU trust them?
> *




You say explicitly here that your lackeys are likely to betray you just "because it amuses them."  Is this correct?

So does this apply when their self-interests are starkly opposed to betrayal?  Would it not then behoove Gra'azt to insure that this is the case?  If this is the case, then would he not be able to trust her to some extent, all the while keeping in mind that she might betray him and that he must treat everything she says with that in mind?  The trick for him is insuring her interests and unravelling the web of possible betrayal.  It is difficult but not impossible.  In fact, since Gra'azt is a master of deception isn't it possible that he could allow the succubus to think she is betraying him, all the while playing this to his advantage?

The succubus is clearly out of her mental league in this relationship and both of them know this.  That is another form of intimidation.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I suppose this is just an impasse we are at then.  I think that people will fear him because he destroys his opponents.  I don't think they care whether he does it through guile, trickery, or physical force.  If I know that he is deadly and can destroy me easily, I don't really care about what tool he uses to do that.  It doesn't matter if I think he will personally come and destroy me, or I think he will trick Demogorgon into personally coming and destroying me.  Either way I fear him for what he can do to me.  I fear him and thus I obey for fear of crossing him.
> 
> It's not about physical power.  It's just about power.  I understand that you don't agree though, and I don't think there is much more room for argument on this particular point, although I'd be happy to be proven wrong.   *



I haven't proven you wrong any more than you've proven me wrong.  I just disagree with you.  You've presented a clear, concise argument and I respect it... I just don't agree.  But, HEY, this is what the boards are for!  To present our informed ideas and have them challenged by other informed ideas.  Makes us smarter and better informed.  I've learned a lot from this fun conversation!


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## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

> CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority: physical power.




And I say,  CE, without structures, limitations, rules, regulations, or laws, have one dominant manner to maintain authority: mental power. 


Why do I say this?

Simple. The 666 layers of the abyss isn't a flat featureless void. and for that matter. Not every powerful figure in the Abyss is known. So far all we know about there terrible figures, we don't know to much about their current domains. And just because someone is weekr than you doesn't meen that you can go to where he is and extract him. (Isn't that the reason that Saddam is still were he is?). 

We also don't know all of Grazzt's allies. We know that his son is Iuz from the Greyhawk game. That NPC is a Demi-god. Perhaps there are other Gods (of Evil) that want him around. Maybe Old D and O are waiting for Grazzat to pop his head out of a certain hole so they can lay the smack down on him. 

But there is one other thing that we are overlooking. Demons, (and Devils) have one thing in great commodity. The have time. Plenty of time. Revenge is so much greater if you can put it off for just a while.

Then there is another issue. When you have stated enemies, you have the ability to rally troops to your side. Your made stronger by the simple fact that as long as you can whip your troops into a frenzy againt your opponent, they will do what you ask. I'm sure that these fellows can certainly charm the pants off a lot of thier kind.


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## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *
> I haven't proven you wrong any more than you've proven me wrong.*




I agree, and I hope I didn't imply otherwise in my post.  Very well argued Serge!


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I think we both agree that Graz'zt can probably put the beat-down on any of the non-named demons, right?  He can probably lay a righteous smackdown on many of the other demon lords.  He may not be able to beat on Orcus or Demogorgon physically, but by that point it doesnt matter nearly as much, because he effectively has Orcus as an unwitting ally against Demogorgon and vice versa.  I made a post on this earlier that seems to have been mostly ignored.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with this.  Any of it.  However, the establishment and maintainence of this status quo requires that no one Demon Prince, or any lacky suddenly thinks it can quickly take a rival out.  That's the only caveat I'd add to your statement.


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## coyote6 (Oct 9, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi all!
> 
> I went away for half an hour; returned to see half a dozen threads wanting a peice of me; spent 40 minutes replying to this post by coyote6 and just before I submitted it my computer crashed.*




I hate it when that happens. Usually, I just let it go, 'cause like the man said, hey, silly discussion. 



			
				Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Its plausible that at some point in the past the Abyss was unified under one leader - however such sovereignty will be relatively short, given it is the nature of demons to conspire against one another.*




Two responses: 

1) If demons are so chaotic and evil that personal Smackdown Ability is the most important attribute of a ranking demon, then the One True Demonic Monarch was perforce powerful enough to smack down every other menace to get his job. So how did a bunch of weaker guys ever manage to take him down? He would just kill everyone anywhere near powerful enough to be a threat (when combined with enough others of similar power). Since demons have that chaotic, evil, utterly untrustable nature (that makes personal Smackdown Ability so necessary), a large conspiracy would be impossible, meaning that the One True Demonic Monarch only needs to kill (and keep killing) a relative few to keep himself firmly in place. So why isn't he still The King?

(Of course, without all those balors, celestials or devils will roll in, and eliminate all demons forever, but hey. Them's the breaks.)

2) OTOH, if demons can intrigue and conspire with one another to take down the One True Demonic Monarch, then why can't a demon intrigue & manipulate to keep himself as one of the Big Boys? In other words, why can't Graz'zt, prince of deception, pull enough strings to give himself enough political power to rival Orcus & Demogorgon & Ronald McDonald?

One final thought: so, Graz'zt used to be just as Personally Badass as Orcus & Demogorgon, and now he's not. 

So, what changed? How did Graz'zt lose power? 

Perhaps he never really had that power, and only fooled everyone (esp. one Gygax) into thinking he did. 

Or perhaps he reached too far, and lost power. 

Maybe he sought to commit the ultimate betrayal, and cut a deal with Asmodeus (or one of those fabled 66 HD solars!) to betray the whole of the Abyss; instead, he lost his shirt.

Perhaps Orcus' return from whatever-it-was that happened to him in 2e precipitated a loss of personal might for Graz'zt. So maybe now the demon of deception is desperately trying to pull the strings and layer the lies to keep himself on top. Andor he's looking to regain his lost strength.

Or maybe he hasn't lost power at all, and is only pretending to, to lure his enemies into foolishness (of course, his lies fooled a fellow named Cook, along with the requisite developers, editors, and such).

Maybe Graz'zt has found a way to achieve truly divine status, and make various posters happy, but it requires he first _lose_ power before he can make himself God of All Deceptions.

[edit]: In other words, make an adventure or 666 out of the discrepancy!


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## Celebrim (Oct 9, 2002)

drnuncheon: I'd thought of that exact same arguement earlier, and indeed it is I think the only strong arguement against my position (which is why I didn't bring it up).  So, feel free to advance it, because I'm interested in seeing just how far it can be advanced.

But, I suspect that it has a critical weakness.  The would be manipulator must suppose that if his mark is to be manipulated that his actions must be somewhat predictable.  That is to say, the would be manipulator must be intelligent and sageous enough to be able to predict what the foe will guess when faced with the condrudum, 'I can't trust my foe, but my foe must know that I can't trust him, but...'.  Fair enough you say, the Demon Lords possess inhuman intelligence and are capable of manipulating others based on successfully divining both what the other has posited (that is in the simpliest case, whether they are telling the truth hoping you will believe it a lie, or telling the lie hoping you believe it to be the truth) AND predicting how the mark will respond when you face them with the same condrumdum.  

The problem here lies only several levels.  For one, it ought to be clear at the least that it is a good bit harder to be decietful when no trust at all is present.  For another, it ought to be clear that there is a certain ammount of luck involved.  In condrudum contests like the Game of Wits in Princes Bride, in reality, most peoples position is not based on a deducable principal but in fact on a random decision.  Therefore, no matter how intelligent you may be, your odds of correctly guessing are no better than those of someone who is completely stupid (50/50).  Moreover, given that the players are in fact Chaotic, they are more likely than ever to be no more predictable than dice, and thus not manipulatable in the way you describe.

And there is an even more subtle problem.  I like to consider myself a person of rather high intelligence.  Persumably other people on this board have similar justifiable belief in their own mental prowess.  Didn't it seem to you that Vincini wasn't nearly as intelligent as you yourself are?  For instance, Vincini was able to lay all the evidence out before him, and yet could not draw the simple conclusion that the game was clearly rigged and that you shouldn't play a game that is rigged.  Think about it.  With the evidence before you, there was no other possible conclusion than you are being tricked.  Vincini was manipulated by Wesley into believing that the game was fair even though Vincini had no reason to believe that Wesley would risk his life in a fair game.  How stupid can you get?

And indeed, and here is the point, wouldn't a demon think precisely the same thing?  How stupid can you get?  Trusting Graz'zt or Orcus or Demogorgon into tricking you into believing that the game is fair.  You know that the game isn't fair, and in fact you don't believe that there is such a thing as fairness!  There are only games rigged in favor of one side or the other, and you should only play the games rigged by you.  

Some people are arguing that failure of trust is Chaotic Stupid, but in fact quite the opposite is the case.  Chaotic Stupid is Vincini the criminal trusting another known criminal to set up a fair game.

And moreover, there seems to be some resentment here that I'm saying Chaotic Evil cannot organize powerful institutions (and in fact I'm saying that they cannot organize institutions at all).  People ARE in fact arguing against me that CE beings would be much better off if they just got along, and in a certain sence you are right.  The Nine Hells are much better organized, and the rulers there of able to command much greater power than any ruler of the Abyss regardless of the relative personal power of either demons or devils.  So what?  No doubt every demon is highly envious of Asmodeus.  Look at that fat cat they say.  He's got it easy.  He's tricked all those other fools into doing his bidding.  What I wouldn't give to have a bunch of stupid foolish devils sacrificing themselves for my pleasure.  

But that doesn't mean that the Abyss would suddenly organize according to the model of the Nine Hells just because all the inhabitants of the Abyss are smart enough to understand that they would be more powerful and properous if they did.  Because, all the members of the Abyss are also intensely aware that there is only one 'admirable' (by their standards) being in the Nine Hells - the guy on top.  In the Abyss, maybe the group isn't achieving like it could, but so what?  You don't give a flip about the group.  What you care about is that you aren't serving someone elses interests.  

I mean please, it is not stupid not to serve Graz'zt.  Have you ever tried serving Graz'zt?  Serving Graz'zt is what is stupid, and I'm sure that the Succubi makes the same argument to herself, but that I'd never believe what she was telling me about serving Graz'zt one way or the other.


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## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *Please correct me if this is not the crux of your argument.*



Sure, let's assume that. At least until you trash it and I have to scramble for another. 

I note, however, that the crux of YOUR argument appears to have shifted from the notion of mutual self-interest to the idea that Graz'zt is so smart he can predict demon's behaviour with enough accuracy that he can have some confidence that they have done X and not Y.

That's pretty good, I admit. Let's assume Graz'zt is smart (it doesn't have to be Graz'zt, but there's probably at least one demon lord who's reasonably bright, so let's call that one Graz'zt). He's smart enough that he can predict demon behaviour with better than 50% accuracy (less than that and he's better off just guessing, right?). So he sends demons off with various instructions, just to see what happens, because he can draw his own conclusions from whatever does happen, right? He doesn't need to trust anyone, he just needs to watch the outcomes in order to read between the lines and get the information he needs.

Huh. I see that.

Here's the problem, though: whenever anyone opens their mouth in the Abyss, everyone listening is going to be wondering who's agenda is being served. Now you're saying that Graz'zt is so smart (and, presumably, so arrogant) that he has enough faith in his understanding of the situation that he can figure out who's agenda is currently at the counter. Which is great, if he happens to be correct, and will get him killed if he's not. So what you end up with is a place where only the smartest, most paranoid, most powerful being will survive.

Because he's so smart, he can see through everyone else's plans. Because he's so paranoid, he realises that ANY sentient creature has the ability to become a threat to him. Because he's so powerful, he can wipe them out. Why allow any to exist when by simply wiping them out eliminates ALL risk? He can live forever just by killing every single other demon. Given the timeline that the Abyss has been running on, isn't it inevitable that this will happen? Even the slightest power imbalance will, over time, become crucial.

It's not like a demon is going to get lonely. And if we surmise that hey, he needs other demons to push around, well, then he's not quite as smart as we thought and so some smarter demon is going to come along and push him off his pedestal and not make that mistake.

Logic demands that IF your goal is to survive in the Abyss, that you will be forced to eliminate all life within it. Because in the Abyss, all life is a threat and will never provide any companionship besides. It's either kill 'em all or (what the actual smart person would do) leave.

Okay, so you got me on the smart thing. A smart demon can bamboozle a dumb demon. But my original notion was that the idea of actual evil is silly. Which it still is. The point that one demon can fool another doesn't make it less silly.

Well, MAYBE it's LESS silly, but it's still pretty silly.


----------



## herald (Oct 9, 2002)

Geez, debating the Talmud is easier than this.


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## takyris (Oct 9, 2002)

Maybe it's just the nature of what we're discussing, but there's something deeply unnerving about multiple people saying nice things about my post.  I keep glancing over my shoulder nervously...

Um, yeah, the treasure room and door thing was me being hugely absurdist -- but I'm sure that if a DM were short-sighted enough to give a first-level CE wizard a wand of fireballs, it would happen at some point.  "Treasure?  Bah!  What is treasure to a God?  BWAHAHAHA, lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt!"

To the 10th level CE wizard scrying the whole thing, it's a display of inbred idiocy.  Experience has given that wizard a better view of plans and strategems, and even if he didn't need that treasure himself, he could have used it for something else.  A tenth level chaotic evil wizard can maintain the appearance of lawfulness for longer, because he knows that the moment he flips out and starts fireballing the commoners in the market square, a bunch of square-jawed adventurers are going to come looking for him -- and eventually, one of them will be smart or strong enough to get through his defenses.

I'm not saying that the 10th level CE Wizard isn't as chaotic or as evil as the 1st level guy with the wand of fireballs (who is counterintuitively screaming "lightning bolt" over and over again instead of "fireball", proving that he's not worth the one round of melee combat it would take to kill him).  He's just advanced to a more elitist understanding of true chaos and true evil.  He can put on an amulet of nondetection and make nice at the local duke's ball.  Heck, he'll even save the duke from an assassin rather than taking it as an opportunity to disintegrate the duke's body and polymorph himself into the duke to take his place.  Why?  Because he's not aiming for the local duchy.  He's aiming higher -- and he's figured out an important factor of the multiverse:

True Chaos and True Evil are not one hundred minor sins.

True Chaos and True Evil are ninety-nine good deeds that move you into the position to take them by surprise with one deed that guarantees your power, your strength, and your indomitable rulership.

Delayed Gratification.  The end justifies the means, even if those means are unpleasant and not fun and involve actually keeping promises and stuff.

With the Duke trusting him and appointing him as Ducal Advisor, the 10th level wizard is in position to use his new influence to sureptitiously guide bandits and enemy humanoids, getting chaos into the region, fanning the flames of war, and convincing the duke that the only way to save the Duchy is to unlock the ancient relic currently housed in the mausoleum under the "No, seriously, do NOT use!" sign.

And that relic, once in the wizard's hands, will win him a kingdom.

This might be the heart of the disagreement.  My personal belief is that demons won't betray each other as quickly and easily -- that Chaotic Evil does not preclude long-term planning or the ability to act lawful, or even good, as the occasion demands.  That, by extrapolation, Graz'zt can expect several centuries of good work from his Succubus before she turns on him.  This is why:

The Abyss has been around for a long, long, long time.  They've gotten really really good at backstabbing and cheating and lying.  They've watched top players get done in, and they've watched how it happened, and they've learned that nine times out of ten, betrayal gets noticed and results in you being torn limb from limb and eaten.  That Succubus isn't going to break allegiance the first chance she gets.  She's going to keep stringing Graz'zt along while she works her wiles.  She knows he doesn't trust her.  She knows that he's prepared to kill her if he even suspects that she's being less than forthright.  So she will serve well, and faithfully, biding her time, and she will be a GOOD servant, reporting truthfully, acting on her master's behalf, and so forth.  She's going to wait for an opportunity that will REALLY pay off, make her a power in her own right, because experience has shown her that changing loyalties is useless -- everyone who changes loyalties too early gets killed as short-sighted and stupid.

And Graz'zt, for his part, won't be foolish enough to expect unswerving loyalty.  Heck, he'll smile and wink at her side schemes, her little covens and cabals that gain her power, because he knows that it makes her feel special, and her power, for now, is his power.   He wouldn't even tell her not to do that stuff -- because if she breaks that rule and gets away with it, she'll consider breaking more.  He'll have few rules, and she'll know that it's death to break them.

I fully agree that eventually, a CE creature will make its move.  But I see them as much more cautious and careful, based on what they've witnessed and what powers they've seen.  Physically powerful, spell-like prodigies with six heads and multiple gaze attacks and eye rays will find themselves bumped into spheres of annhilation if they wantonly break rules and disregard alliances.  Even Chaotic Evil societies will put down their mad dogs.

(In fact, they probably work off their stress on mortals, doing the easy lies and casual betrayals on the Primes because it's so much less complicated than the million alliances and thousand betrayals and murky allegiances of their home.  So humanity could easily misunderstand demonic societies, thinking them simplistic, with all of them always lying and never doing anything that merits trust, because the demons don't think the humans are worth really thinking about...)

So anyway... that's pretty murky, but I'm at work, writing quickly, and it's the best I can do on short notice.

Summary: Chaotic Evil can still be long-sighted.  And the Abyss is a mean enough place that nobody can get by for long without playing.  And playing means at least the pretense of alliance, agreements, and such.

Or maybe just "The Abyss is a Harsh Mistress..."

-Tacky

EDIT: Lots of good points made while I was writing this.  I'm mainly asking the question of whether Chaotic Evil and long-term thinking are mutually exclusive.


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## Henry (Oct 9, 2002)

Herald, you've just made my "quote of the day." 

This is because alignment discussions (which this has become a variant of) are often never resolved, because it often comes down to a matter of personal opinion. Whereas many discussions can be resolved by pointing facts, discussions of how imaginary characters would act in a given situation, according to laws and precepts that are totally set by the debator, never get resolved, and both sides repeat the same points endlessly.


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## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

takyris:

Excellent post. Great depiction of the world of the Abyss. Wow, you've almost convinced me that it makes sense! It sounds like _Survivor_!

Except that the view you take, though longer view than "Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!", isn't really a long view. The long view would note that eventually all power imbalances would resolve and ONE being would end up in charge. And as I pointed out, the logical thing for that being to do is to exterminate all life in the Abyss. Or leave.

Maybe that's impossible. Maybe it's been tried and it's impossible and so couldn't be done.

It just seems silly to me still. I have a hard time imagining why any sentient creature would want to live in such a world. Yeah, I know, they're demons, but still.

Then again, I have a hard time understanding _Survivor_.


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## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

Yeah, a society of CE beings seems to be a contradiction considering that a society normally has structure and laws. An "army" of demons also seems wrong too - ranks of demons imply a structure that pure Chaos would abhor.  I just can't get my human mind around how the Abyss would be - maybe that's a good thing 

IceBear


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## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

IceBear said:
			
		

> *I just can't get my human mind around how the Abyss would be - maybe that's a good thing.*



Strange typo, that. Spelling _Survivor_ "t", "h", "e", "A", "b", "y", "s", "s".


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## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

I don't get it?  When did we start talking about crappy TV? 

IceBear


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Psion said:
			
		

> *Greets, enkrusted one,*




Hey Psion mate! 



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *Just cause you say so, eh?
> 
> Sorry, THAT doesn't wash.*




Hey! I wash plenty! 



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *Then when Demogorgon dies from the trap Grazzt set, that's a bigger loss of face. And Graz'zt earns even more face, because he has shown that even when you think he's down, he's not necessarily. That makes for a much more indelible fear (and much likely to lead one to a durable position as a demon lord) than to merely rely on physical power, as the mere physical will have your lackey turning on you the moment that they think you are vulnerable. Fear of trickery leaves your lackeys fearful even when they THINK you are vulnerable.*




I don't see the trap you previously mentioned working to any great extent. The demons are too experienced in such warfare to fall for mundane tactics. Of course I am not saying such tactics won't have any effect, just a negligable one. Also there is always the potential for artifact based chicanery as per the battle between Demogorgon and Graz'zts two armies in the Gord the Rogue novels Come Endless Darkness and Dance of Demons.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *There is more than one way to win a fight. Going toe-to-toe is not always the way it gets done. If a demon lord sets up treachery upon treachery and contingency upon contingency, pretty soon his underlings learn that crossing him is not wise and are kept in line. Those same treacheries and contingencies can be used to even the playing field, too.*




Absolutely.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *It does not always come down to a toe-to-toe fight, and I imagine that most demon lords that held that philosophy would be ex-demon lords before long.*




Would only occur if one thought they had an advantage.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> *It's more specific than that. It is based on his own personal interperetation of abyssal politics which tries to universalize a singular example of CE behavior to encompass the entierety of abyssal politics. *




Not exactly. Its also the interpretation of Gary Gygax and 1st Ed. AD&D.


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## Celebrim (Oct 9, 2002)

takyris: Great post 

I too think that being CE does not perclude long range planning.  I don't want to get too side tracked down that arguement, but I do want to point out that in a certain since, adherence to any alignment percludes 'long-range planning' in the broadest sense.  Perhaps a LG person _could_ perform a series of evils and chaotic actions over a long period hoping to achieve a position from which they could accomplish some greater good, but ultimately one cannot help but notice that this is a somewhat more nuetral middle ground position.  The reverse is I believe also true.  A chaotic evil person that actually performs a series of good deeds in order to achieve a some long range evil is assuming a somewhat more neutral middle ground moral position.  And, if the person is CE by nature, then certainly it takes a great deal of discipline to avoid acting out this nature over a long term.  However, that isn't really what I want to argue.

I also want to point out that your vision of a CE society is ultimately filled with shades of grey and is complexly neutral.  There is a little bit of law here, and a little bit of chaos here, and some evil here, and maybe even some good hidden away in the corners.  That's fine and interesting, and certainly alot easier to relate to, but that isn't necessarily what was originally postulated - which was I thought universal complete and unrepetant CE.

However, that's not really what I wanted to add either. 

What I really want to add is that if you believe that 'long range planning' allows two demons to cooperate to achieve some mutual end, then you have to ask why all demons of the same level of intelligence haven't come to the same conclusion?  Why is it that with the rest of the multiverse unconquered, that Orcus, Demogorgon, Graz'zt and all the rest haven't said, 'You know, we are being (chaotic) stupid.  We could all advance our various agenda's better if we just formed an alliance and acted together out of mutual self-interest.  That way, the interests of all demonkind (and most especially our august selves) would be advanced and we could secure our various domains far better than we could otherwise.  Once we have conquered the universe, then we can continue this debate about which of us will rule it.'  This is undoubtably true, and its undoubtably true that each demon lord would in the long term lose if they ever betrayed the other.  So why doesn't it happen?  It doesn't happen because that's not what demons believe in.  That is the position of the Lords of the Nine Hells.  The demons don't believe that is the correct course even if it is all true.

Therefore, I propose to you that if a mere Succubi can be loyal for centuries because her long term interests lie that way, that the entire CE philosophy would collapse on itself.  Every demon would realize the same thing.  The Abyss would overnight become a plane of Law and the forces of Chaos would admit philosophical defeat.


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## IceBear (Oct 9, 2002)

Since when did experience become the sole determiner of whether or not someone would fall into a trap?  There's also intelligence of the victim and the trap setter to keep in mind.

IceBear


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## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

*Curse you, Celebrim!*

How come you're so smart? You keep saying what I was going to say only couldn't figure out how to say it so ended up saying something completely different and got reduced to making _Survivor_ jokes.

So, yeah. What he said.

I'm going to go make up some more _Survivor_ jokes since it looks like Celebrim has things pretty well wrapped up here.


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## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

takyris said:
			
		

> *Um, yeah, the treasure room and door thing was me being hugely absurdist -- but I'm sure that if a DM were short-sighted enough to give a first-level CE wizard a wand of fireballs, it would happen at some point.  "Treasure?  Bah!  What is treasure to a God?  BWAHAHAHA, lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt!"*



Heh.  That's not CE.  That's nuts!



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *To the 10th level CE wizard scrying the whole thing, it's a display of inbred idiocy.  Experience has given that wizard a better view of plans and strategems, and even if he didn't need that treasure himself, he could have used it for something else.  A tenth level chaotic evil wizard can maintain the appearance of lawfulness for longer, because he knows that the moment he flips out and starts fireballing the commoners in the market square, a bunch of square-jawed adventurers are going to come looking for him -- and eventually, one of them will be smart or strong enough to get through his defenses....He can put on an amulet of nondetection and make nice at the local duke's ball.  Heck, he'll even save the duke from an assassin rather than taking it as an opportunity to disintegrate the duke's body and polymorph himself into the duke to take his place.  Why?  Because he's not aiming for the local duchy.  He's aiming higher -- and he's figured out an important factor of the multiverse:
> 
> True Chaos and True Evil are not one hundred minor sins.*



Well, again, very eloquent.  However, this character doesn't sound all that Chaotic to me (and as I read further down, my perspective intensifies).  The character seems to be either a very disciplined  NE or typical LE character.

A 10th level CE Wizard can come in many different packages.  However, let's say there is one that is very intelligent, charismatic, and living in a duchy he has his sights on.  He will lie, cheat, steal, disregard laws and customs when he can get away with it.  If the opportunity presents itself and he knows he can't get caught, the duke's dead or gravely injured because he can accomplish the act, not because he has a reason for it.  Can he live in the social structure?  Depends on many factors, but largely I'd say a CE character is not going to last long in a lawful environment not because he's not intelligent or wise or charismatic, but because he doesn't want to and sees no reason to.  Even if he's not seeking to take over the duchy, he's not likely to stay around because he can attain power elsewhere.... Or he can conduct his research beyond the duchy's boundaries.  



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *True Chaos and True Evil are ninety-nine good deeds that move you into the position to take them by surprise with one deed that guarantees your power, your strength, and your indomitable rulership.*



This sounds like a Lawful Evil position.  LE is all about the perception of order and the benefit of the society when in fact the exact opposite occurs (although I think the Emperor Palpatine is NE, his actions are largely LE because that was the structure most convenient to him.  _The Godfather_ is similar to this as well).  CE is not concerned with illusions; it's more interested in pursuing its goals now and will make adjustments and reformulate when it runs into significant challenges.



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *This might be the heart of the disagreement.  My personal belief is that demons won't betray each other as quickly and easily -- that Chaotic Evil does not preclude long-term planning or the ability to act lawful, or even good, as the occasion demands.*



Well, I'm sure that there will be deviations from the norm (The Emperor), but largely, I don't see this at all.  CE planning is nothing compared to that of NE, much less that of LE.  Sure, the planning of a Demon is probably going to be significantly more intense and long-term than a CE mortal, but nowhere near as involved as that of a NE or LE peer.  

I do agree that betrayal will not necessarily be immediate... but it's always in the back of the mind of all Demons.  Eventually, regardless of the "support" the goal is to have one's own power, to answer to no one, no ideal, no thing, and to rule as one wishes regardless to the needs and desires of others.



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *I fully agree that eventually, a CE creature will make its move.  But I see them as much more cautious and careful, based on what they've witnessed and what powers they've seen.  Physically powerful, spell-like prodigies with six heads and multiple gaze attacks and eye rays will find themselves bumped into spheres of annhilation if they wantonly break rules and disregard alliances.  Even Chaotic Evil societies will put down their mad dogs.*



Actually, I think that it's the Int and Wis of a Demon that will determine when it will strike.  The more intelligent/wise Demon will know the right time when it presents itself.  It's not planning to formulate the right time... at least not to the degree that a Yugoloth or Devil would.  When it appears, it takes advantage of the situation.

And, yes, wanton attacks will result in annihilation if the Demon is too stupid to know when it can get away with treachery or an attack.  It has nothing to do with alliances or rules.  It has to do with personal survival.  If a Demon is intelligent or wise enough to know that a treacherous move on its part is not going to result in the intended goal of gaining more power, it won't do it.  Alliances are irrelevant.  Rules are irrelevant.  You will service us...  errr... sorry, got a little carried away there...



			
				takyris said:
			
		

> *So anyway... that's pretty murky, but I'm at work, writing quickly, and it's the best I can do on short notice.*



If this is murky, I'd hate to see you when you have time to think!  You're giving me a run for my money!


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

takyris said:
			
		

> *Maybe it's just the nature of what we're discussing, but there's something deeply unnerving about multiple people saying nice things about my post.  I keep glancing over my shoulder nervously...
> (snip)
> ...Or maybe just "The Abyss is a Harsh Mistress..."
> 
> ...


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi drnuncheon! 



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *But you know what?  Demogorgon's not going to do that.  Because he's not stupid.*




I agree Demogorgon wouldn't commit his forces unless he has a perceived advantage such as Graz'zt's relative weakness in the Book of Vile Darkness - which was how the example initially arose.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *As soon as he assembles his millions of demons and marches on Graz'zt, Orcus is going to assemble his millions of demons and put a hurting on the ol'double-header while he isn't there to do anything about it.*




Exactly.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *Demogorgon might walk though Graz'zt's champions and such, but that doesn't mean he'll come through unharmed*




Nevertheless Graz'zts forces will have been significantly dwindled.

If the two armies take the field its the Monarchs; Princes and Lords that inflict the real damage.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *- and he definitely won't come through the fight with Graz'zt unharmed.*




He doesn't even need to fight Graz'zt. If Graz'zt laps the initial challenge Demogorgon has a free hand to inflict damage upon his forces.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *And when he limps his sorry tentacled behind back home afte rwinning the fight, guess who's waiting?  It's his good buddy Orcus, who is fresh and rested and unharmed, armed with a full complement of spells and ready to make Demogorgon suck the pain pipe.*




LOL 



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *So, Graz'zt doesn't have to be tough enough to beat anyone that comes his way - he just has to be tough enough to make it a bad idea to attack him.  Neither he nor Orcus nor Demogorgon is going to make a definitive move against the other two unless he believes he can beat both of them...and whatever other challenger is going to rise up afterwards. *




If Demogorgon perceives an advantage he will act on it.


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## S'mon (Oct 9, 2002)

A fallacy some people have made is that the Abyss is a plane of Absolute, Total, Chaos & Evil.  Such a thing is inconceivable to a human mind, just as Absolute Law & Good is.  If it exists in the Abyss, it's the layers where simply going there turns you into a Bodak.  What humans see as the Abyss is that part of Chaos & Evil able to interact with humanity.  And even Slaadi have some organisation (ranking) & society.  Demons can have much more.


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## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hello again! 



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *That's great, but we are talking about WOTC's system right now.  (I think to avoid confusion, you should call yours the Krust Rating, or KR!) *




Agreed. 

...we had some confusion about this over in the House Rules Forum too. 



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *Since you don't have Grazzt's stats (or Orcus' or Demogorgon's), we don't know the KR for any of them - only the CR.  And as I have shown, the CR is not a valid method of comparing two monsters.*




But it is applicable for measuring relative power.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *It was a hypothetical monster created solely for the purpose of illustrating the example.  There's precedent in the rules for localized effects of various sorts - spells that give bonuses vs. evil spells, etc.*




Absolutely - but that sort of 'situational modifier' could be just as applicable to the PCs.



			
				drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *And yet, the weretiger is still likely to defeat the Dire Tiger, even tho it's KR is lower! You are only giving more evidence for my point - Challenge Rating - or Krust Rating - is insufficient for a "who'd win".
> 
> If it were sufficient, then it would be the only stat needed in the game... *




Maybe it was in another thread where I mentioned a situational modifier. My memories on the blink again - and I don't fancy wading through this thread again!


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## takyris (Oct 9, 2002)

Let's see...

barsoomcore: You just gave me the shuddering creepies by comparing my post to _Survivor_...

Celebrim: That darn "Using this theory, this would have eventually happened" logic!  I HATE that logic... If I were gonna mount a strenuous defense, I'd probably base it on the notion that competition will be fiercest where the people are closer in power.  The greater the power difference, the longer they are to work together.  That lets a succubus work for Graz'zt, but keeps the high-level rivalries going.  And I'd never imagined a bunch of succubi working well together for long -- they'd be fighting like cats and, well, cats, to win Big G's favor...

But frankly, even that's pretty shaky.  As a non-chaotic-evil person, I think I've gone about as far into the mentality as I can without putting my own "what I'd do"'s into it.  The flawed model I've got is still basically good enough to support the game I want to run -- and if my players ever say something about demons allying together like that, I'll just grin and ask, "How do you know they haven't?"  And then they'll throw dice at me.

Serge: When it comes down to it, I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement as to what Chaotic means, and it's a fine disagreement to have with no hard feelings on my end.  The inherent limitation of Chaos/Law and Good/Evil in D&D is that it lumps "Works well in hierarchical structure" and "Self-discipline" together under Law.  This means that Demons, the very embodiments of Chaos, are supposed to be devoid of self-discipline.  I think you're probably right as to what the D&D official rules say.  Personally, though, I can't stand villains devoid of self-discipline, because they die so very quickly and stupidly -- so I'm ignoring that aspect of Law/Chaos and declaring it non-alignment-based.  And it lets me have the world I want.

Thanks all,
-Tacky


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 9, 2002)

Hi herald! 



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *I'm sure I didn't miss anthing on the FAQ that you should be pendantic on the board.*




...and who gets to determine whos being too pedantic...what is this 1984!? 



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Oh no, I'm sure pretty sure that they can actually justify them, weather you like it or not is up to you. Any way you slice it though, it's justified.*




I'm all for it - lets hear their justification then!?



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Ah, but that's where you arguement starts to fail. You see FR follows a completly differant cosmology. The planes follow a "Great Tree" instead of a "Great Wheel" concept. The only way these cosmologies intersect is at the "Shadow Plane" (Provided that you use this optional rule)
> 
> All planes that share the same name are infact seperate and differant.
> 
> At this point the realms have no direct connection to the typical planescape campaign setting as originally presented.*




What has the forgotten realms cosmology got to do with core cosmology though?



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *You use real world presedents? Are you telling me that you've visited the real Abyss? (Nevermind, I don't want to know)*




LOL 



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *The fact is that politics can work in the abyss and it does. Grazzat for could play both ends against the middle, which would make more sense than anything. He could hamstring his opponents into thinking that other threats exist that prevent his removal.*




I would envision the Abyss requires a more hands on approach that you think. You seem to be picturing the Nine Hells.



			
				herald said:
			
		

> *Whatever you choose as an explination is fine. Insisting that stats balance what roleplaying should be able to explain is rather pointless. *




Roleplaying only balances so much though.

Next thing you'll be telling me an Ultroloth rules the Gray Waste.


----------



## The Serge (Oct 9, 2002)

takyris said:
			
		

> *Serge: When it comes down to it, I think you and I have a fundamental disagreement as to what Chaotic means, and it's a fine disagreement to have with no hard feelings on my end.  The inherent limitation of Chaos/Law and Good/Evil in D&D is that it lumps "Works well in hierarchical structure" and "Self-discipline" together under Law.  This means that Demons, the very embodiments of Chaos, are supposed to be devoid of self-discipline.  I think you're probably right as to what the D&D official rules say.  Personally, though, I can't stand villains devoid of self-discipline, because they die so very quickly and stupidly -- so I'm ignoring that aspect of Law/Chaos and declaring it non-alignment-based.  And it lets me have the world I want.
> *



No hard-feeling!  I love these kinds of debates!  They're the reason I come to the boards.  

Your point on self-discipline is well taken and I can see that, if the idea of self-discipline is limited to Lawful alignments, then there can be a problem... particularly if it's applied clumsily.  However, like I said earlier, I think for Demons, intelligence and wisdom will keep them alive although they'll rely on Strength to a greater degree.

I really enjoyed our conversation and look forward to having another one in the future (hopefully, we'll agree!).

*UPPER_KRUST!*
I heard that the Gord the Rogue cycle is to be reissued early next year.  Have you heard this as well?


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 9, 2002)

Celebrim said:
			
		

> *Fair enough you say, the Demon Lords possess inhuman intelligence and are capable of manipulating others based on successfully divining both what the other has posited (that is in the simpliest case, whether they are telling the truth hoping you will believe it a lie, or telling the lie hoping you believe it to be the truth) AND predicting how the mark will respond when you face them with the same condrumdum. *




Actually, what I'm saying is that if all demons take it to the levels that you describe, the entire Abyss becomes paralyzed, because all they do is sit around and think 'well, does he _want_ me to do that?  Or does he just want me to _think_ he wants me to do that?" Nobody acts.

At some point, you have to act - and you'll probably do it based on unconscious or subconscious urges.  The skill for the manipulator is in judging you and figuring out which way you'll come down when you do - or, of course, in putting you in a situation where the only rational act for your own self-interest is the one that he wants you to do.

(BTW - it always looked to me like Vizzini was cheating in the movie - he waited and watched Westley's reaction when he chose the cup, and didn't drink until Westley did. When Westley showed no hesitation, he "knew" that he was right.  No idea what he would have done if Westley had looked afraid, though.)



			
				Celebrim said:
			
		

> *I mean please, it is not stupid not to serve Graz'zt.  Have you ever tried serving Graz'zt?  Serving Graz'zt is what is stupid, and I'm sure that the Succubi makes the same argument to herself, but that I'd never believe what she was telling me about serving Graz'zt one way or the other. *




Hmm.  Are you so sure that it's stupid to serve a more powerful demon?

See, when Bob the Bored Balor comes along and wants to kill Suzy Succubus, if she doesn't serve someone powerful, she's SOL - dead and on a stick.  But if she's Graz'zt's servant, she can say 'hey, don't touch me, I'm with the big G' - and the Balor will think twice about whacking her.  Not because Graz'zt _will_ come and kick his flaming red hinder around the Abyss, but because he _might_.  So Bob isn't going to kill Suzy unless he thinks there's something in it for him.

Now sure, Bob could say "So? I serve Demogorgon."  But then he has to think.  Graz'zt throwing down with a Balor is one thing, but is Demogorgon _really_ going to go toe to toe with Graz'zt over something his servant did?  Probably not.  And even if he does, Bob's still dead.  Bob's got more to lose in this case.  So he lets Suzy go, and wanders off to find some unaffiliated succubus to kill.

In a place like the Abyss - or any other Chaotic society - the weak flock to the strong, because only the strong can protect them from the strong.

J


----------



## kenjib (Oct 9, 2002)

Tangent alert.

Are intelligence and chaos inherently opposed?  Is not intelligence inherently an ordering of a random universe?

Should demons all have been mindless cosmic horrors like the great Azathoth?  That would have been pretty cool as it would have made them more different from devils and daemons than they are now (and honesty the differences are really piddly if you think about it).

I don't see how a highly intelligent creature would allow the delicate balance of power to erupt into a winner-take-all scenario, since clearly each person's odds of winning are decidedly low, and ultimately completely zero when one considers invasion by highly organized devils, celestials, and others who would subsequently take out the solitary winner.

Can a truly pure chaotic non-society exist among intelligent creatures?  I don't think so, as it defies personal logic (it's clearly stupid not to work together), and I don't think that demons *can* be as purely chaotic as some people want.  It just doesn't work.  They would have become extinct ages ago.  That's why I argue that demons have to behave the way I've described -- with a web of interreliance based on mutual self-interest.  Without some kind of structure like this, however loose, they cease to exist.

If I could re-write the D&D cosmology, demons would be mindless Lovecraftian horrors whose mere existance threatens to drive us insane.  Even devils and daemons fear their irrational behavior.  Devils would be the deal makers who plan their evil manipulations in a cruel and diabolical mockery of congressional politics.  Daemons (yuguloths) would be those who believe in ultimate machiavellian power at any cost, living in the web of mutual self-interest I have described before.  That would make all three different in an interesting way.  As it is now, I think that daemons get kind of squeezed into a spot where there's no role left for them to play.

In any case, demons are not just chaotic, they are as evil as they are chaotic.  Evil is self interest with no concern for others.  At some point, these two impulses must balance against each other.  Strict adherence to chaos flies in the face of the nature of evil, as it defies self preservation.  Thus, there must be some sense of order among demons.  Here is where we all have different interpretations, since this is clearly a problem with a continuum of solutions rather than one specific solution.

The key point for me though, is that D&D has always stressed the good-evil axis *much* more strongly than the law-chaos one.  Therefore for demons, self-preservation takes precedence over defying the rule of law.  They defy law when they can, but only when it does not bring serious harm to them.  This means that they must have some level of cooperation.

I think the best solution is to consider the difference between law and cooperation.  They are not at all the same thing.  You can oppose law and support cooperation.  That's why I view demons the way I do.  They are like hippies gone bad.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 9, 2002)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> *Actually, what I'm saying is that if all demons take it to the levels that you describe, the entire Abyss becomes paralyzed, because all they do is sit around and think 'well, does he want me to do that?  Or does he just want me to think he wants me to do that?" Nobody acts.*



Well, yeah. This is what I've been trying to point out. It's impossible. Which is why I think REAL evil is a silly, silly thing.


> *At some point, you have to act - and you'll probably do it based on unconscious or subconscious urges. *



Actually, given the nature of life in the Abyss, I bet acting completely randomly is as good a survival strategy as any. Which is difficult even for Graz'zt to predict.


> *See, when Bob the Bored Balor comes along and wants to kill Suzy Succubus, if she doesn't serve someone powerful, she's SOL - dead and on a stick.  But if she's Graz'zt's servant, she can say 'hey, don't touch me, I'm with the big G' - and the Balor will think twice about whacking her.  Not because Graz'zt will come and kick his flaming red hinder around the Abyss, but because he might.  So Bob isn't going to kill Suzy unless he thinks there's something in it for him.*



Or unless he just bloody well feels like it. Because describe for me a situation in which Suzy WOULDN'T insist she enjoys a demon lord's protection? Whether it's true or not? Of course she's going to say, "Hey, those belong to Graz'zt, big boy." What other choice does she have? Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.


> *Now sure, Bob could say "So? I serve Demogorgon."  But then he has to think.  Graz'zt throwing down with a Balor is one thing, but is Demogorgon really going to go toe to toe with Graz'zt over something his servant did?  Probably not.  And even if he does, Bob's still dead.  Bob's got more to lose in this case.  So he lets Suzy go, and wanders off to find some unaffiliated succubus to kill.*



Alright, so we very quickly run out of succubuses too stupid to tell balors that they're protected. Then what? What's Bob going to do now?


> *In a place like the Abyss - or any other Chaotic society - the weak flock to the strong, because only the strong can protect them from the strong.*



I disagree. The strong have no motive to protect the weak. All they want to do is exploit the weak. And the weak KNOW this. There's no hope of it ever being otherwise, so why play the game in the first place? Your chances of winning are no better if you play, anyway.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 10, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *They are like hippies gone bad. *



 

Didn't hippies start out pretty bad?


----------



## kenjib (Oct 10, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> Or unless he just bloody well feels like it. Because describe for me a situation in which Suzy WOULDN'T insist she enjoys a demon lord's protection? Whether it's true or not? Of course she's going to say, "Hey, those belong to Graz'zt, big boy." What other choice does she have? Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.
> *




These demons don't exist in a vacuum.  They don't need to tell each other that they are allied or not.  They know just from reputation, like in high school you know that someone is in the drama club or a member of the football team.  Actions speak louder than words and are harder to fake.  Besides, if Suzy goes around lying to everyone about being protected by Gra'azt, do you think that there won't be repercussions from Gra'azt's followers for that?

This succubus is going to have a rep, and Gra'azt's folks are going to make her hurt if she says she's with him but isn't.  Maybe if their feeling gracious they'll just let her perform some errands for them.  Uh oh, now she's not lying anymore, she DOES work for Gra'azt.  



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> I disagree. The strong have no motive to protect the weak. All they want to do is exploit the weak. And the weak KNOW this. There's no hope of it ever being otherwise, so why play the game in the first place? Your chances of winning are no better if you play, anyway. *




The weak accept being exploited in order to be protected.  The strong protect the weak because they are useful servants as opposed to enemies.  Winning does not equal becoming the biggest and most powerful thing ever in the history of the world.  For demons, winning just means surviving, and possibly becoming a little more powerful when the opportunity presents itself.  It seems like you present an all-or-nothing situation here when there is plenty of middle ground.


----------



## Nightfall (Oct 10, 2002)

The only difference between Survivor and the Abyss:

Abyss is more fun cause you can KILL off people IF they screw up and you hated them anyway. Survivor, they just keep coming back...


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 10, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *These demons don't exist in a vacuum.  They don't need to tell each other that they are allied or not.*



You imagine there's some sort of league listings? There are billions of demons, are there not? We're not talking about, say, European politics here. We're talking about the endless hordes of the Abyss.

The example provided said exactly that -- that Suzy tells Bob she's with Graz'zt. It's drmuncheon's example -- if you don't like it, tell him. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't prove his point.


> *Besides, if Suzy goes around lying to everyone about being protected by Gra'azt, do you think that there won't be repercussions from Gra'azt's followers for that?*



And which of Graz'zt's followers are A) going to care and B) going to know if she's lying or not? Why would they? Caring is only going to make Graz'zt stronger, which isn't going to help their position any -- in fact the stronger Graz'zt gets the less he's going to need their help so they really want to keep him right where he is. And how would they know this isn't some trick of Graz'zt's to flush out their own disloyalties? Or that Graz'zt has some secret deal going with this cutie?

The point is that with demons these sorts of things are much more likely than with any human being, and there are no counterbalancing forces of loyalty or love to supply the needed cohesion. All there is is fear, and that is a self-destructive way to run a society. It cannot last, and will eventually succumb as the one most powerful overruns all the others. If he's got eternity in which to do it, he'll manage eventually.


> *This succubus is going to have a rep, and Gra'azt's folks are going to make her hurt if she says she's with him but isn't.  Maybe if their feeling gracious they'll just let her perform some errands for them.  Uh oh, now she's not lying anymore, she DOES work for Gra'azt.  *



I'm sure she'd be more than happy to be asked to perform some errands for Graz'zt. It gives her more chances to cause pain.


> *The weak accept being exploited in order to be protected.*



And I'm saying the protection of a demon is valueless.


> *The strong protect the weak because they are useful servants as opposed to enemies.*



Only demons never make useful servants.


> *Winning does not equal becoming the biggest and most powerful thing ever in the history of the world.*



It does if that is your only means of assuring your own survival. 


> *It seems like you present an all-or-nothing situation here when there is plenty of middle ground. *



Sorry, aren't we talking about the Abyss? The planar representation of pure chaotic evil?

I mean, if you think there can be a middle ground, then aren't you saying that demons aren't purely chaotic evil? I mean, if demons are capable of trust and loyalty then surely they're capable of changing and growing and therefore turning to good and so just hauling off and slaying them maybe isn't such a good thing to do?

Sure, you can say the Abyss has lots of middle ground, grey areas, some demons aren't so bad and actually do the smart thing on occasion, and that's fine. Do what makes your game fun.

All I'm saying is that the whole notion of beings of real, pure chaotic evil seems silly to me. Not because I can't imagine how they might physically exist, but because I can't imagine how they function rationally. Pure chaotic evil isn't even remotely rational, so how can a rational society be built upon it?

And then if you say they aren't necessarily pure chaotic evil it becomes morally difficult to run a game in which the killing of demons is a priori good.

That's what I think.


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 10, 2002)

Hey coyote6 mate! 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *I hate it when that happens. Usually, I just let it go, 'cause like the man said, hey, silly discussion. *




True but its rude not to reply to people who have themselves replied to one of your posts...unless the discussion has ended. 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Two responses:
> 
> 1) If demons are so chaotic and evil that personal Smackdown Ability is the most important attribute of a ranking demon, then the One True Demonic Monarch was perforce powerful enough to smack down every other menace to get his job. So how did a bunch of weaker guys ever manage to take him down? *




Its plausible there could have been some outside* involvement.

*of the Abyss.

eg. Perhaps the Lords of the Nine felt threatened by the unified power of the Abyss and aided one of the subordinate factions.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *He would just kill everyone anywhere near powerful enough to be a threat (when combined with enough others of similar power).*




That would simply weaken his power base though.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Since demons have that chaotic, evil, utterly untrustable nature (that makes personal Smackdown Ability so necessary), a large conspiracy would be impossible, meaning that the One True Demonic Monarch only needs to kill (and keep killing) a relative few to keep himself firmly in place.*




You can always trust demons always to look out for themselves.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *So why isn't he still The King?*




Any number of potential reasons.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *(Of course, without all those balors, celestials or devils will roll in, and eliminate all demons forever, but hey. Them's the breaks.)*




Exactly.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *2) OTOH, if demons can intrigue and conspire with one another to take down the One True Demonic Monarch, then why can't a demon intrigue & manipulate to keep himself as one of the Big Boys?*




Nothing to say he couldn't - just not indefinately. Also intelligent demons are inherantly cowardly and unable to act unless the perceive themselves to hold the upper hand.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *In other words, why can't Graz'zt, prince of deception, pull enough strings to give himself enough political power to rival Orcus & Demogorgon & Ronald McDonald?*




...because then the KFC Colonel will call him out! 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *One final thought: so, Graz'zt used to be just as Personally Badass as Orcus & Demogorgon, and now he's not.
> 
> So, what changed? How did Graz'zt lose power?
> 
> ...




All viable suppositions.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Maybe he sought to commit the ultimate betrayal, and cut a deal with Asmodeus (or one of those fabled 66 HD solars!) to betray the whole of the Abyss; instead, he lost his shirt.*




Funnily enough Demogorgon makes a similar deal (with Nerull-Infestix) in the Gord the Rogue novels.



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Perhaps Orcus' return from whatever-it-was that happened to him in 2e precipitated a loss of personal might for Graz'zt. So maybe now the demon of deception is desperately trying to pull the strings and layer the lies to keep himself on top. Andor he's looking to regain his lost strength.
> 
> Or maybe he hasn't lost power at all, and is only pretending to, to lure his enemies into foolishness (of course, his lies fooled a fellow named Cook, along with the requisite developers, editors, and such).*




Thats the version I favour! 



			
				coyote6 said:
			
		

> *Maybe Graz'zt has found a way to achieve truly divine status, and make various posters happy, but it requires he first lose power before he can make himself God of All Deceptions. *




Way ahead of you on that one mate!


----------



## Upper_Krust (Oct 10, 2002)

Hey Serge mate! 



			
				The Serge said:
			
		

> *UPPER_KRUST!
> I heard that the Gord the Rogue cycle is to be reissued early next year.  Have you heard this as well? *




Yep. 

Gary said they are doing a graphic novel representation of all seven novels to be released early next year (hopefully) and they are also reprinting all the novesl in hardback format.


----------



## kenjib (Oct 10, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> I mean, if you think there can be a middle ground, then aren't you saying that demons aren't purely chaotic evil? I mean, if demons are capable of trust and loyalty then surely they're capable of changing and growing and therefore turning to good and so just hauling off and slaying them maybe isn't such a good thing to do?
> 
> Sure, you can say the Abyss has lots of middle ground, grey areas, some demons aren't so bad and actually do the smart thing on occasion, and that's fine. Do what makes your game fun.
> *




Oh, sorry.  I meant a middle ground vis-a-vis winning or losing, not a moral middle ground, which is what you are talking about.  It's interesting that you posit "do the smart thing" in contrast to being bad.  If you check out a couple of posts back, I posit that chaos and intelligence are opposed.  What do you think of that?

I think it's necessary for evil to take clear precedence over chaos for demons to make sense.  You seem to be focusing on chaos.  The two concepts are actually slightly contradictory.



			
				barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *
> All I'm saying is that the whole notion of beings of real, pure chaotic evil seems silly to me. Not because I can't imagine how they might physically exist, but because I can't imagine how they function rationally. Pure chaotic evil isn't even remotely rational, so how can a rational society be built upon it?
> *




I think the way to make it work best is to make them evil primarily, and chaotic secondarily.  When forced with a dilemma where they must choose between the two, they pick evil.  Thus there is some order and cooperation among demons as it serves their purposes, but only the bare minimum as suits self interest.


----------



## Gizzard (Oct 10, 2002)

> Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.




I think this gets back to the whole "superior intelligence" arguement; you can reduce this to game-mechanics.  If Bobs stats are vastly superior to Suzys he's going to have a pretty good Sense Motive against her Bluff to tell when she is lying; or a pretty good Bluff of his own to manipulate her with.  

Even if Bob isnt cool enough to win these contests 100% of the time, he knows he only has to win one to make his point.  



> Why is it that with the rest of the multiverse unconquered, that Orcus, Demogorgon, Graz'zt and all the rest haven't said, 'You know, we are being (chaotic) stupid. We could all advance our various agenda's better if we just formed an alliance and acted together out of mutual self-interest.




I would guess that speech has been given billions of times in The Abyss.  But its not really a convincing proposition to a being with a WIS of 30.  I bet it works better down in the Succubus ranks though.  ;-)



> For demons, winning just means surviving, and possibly becoming a little more powerful when the opportunity presents itself.




I think this is the glue that holds everything together.  In order to survive I can either achieve some measure of power and wield it ruthlessly against my foes, or I can keep my head down and my nose clean and try to duck any sort of responsibility at all.  I imagine that there are a large number of Demons using this 9-to-5 strategy any given century during eternity.  ;-)


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 10, 2002)

kenjib said:
			
		

> *I posit that chaos and intelligence are opposed.  What do you think of that?*



I think it is sheer brilliance. It's pretty much what I've been groping for all along. You and Celebrim, man. Just show up and hand me what I'm trying to say.

Yes, intelligence and chaos are opposed, just as creativity and law are opposed. Just as compassion and evil, and self-interest and good are all opposed. Us poor humans, caught in the middle.


> *I think it's necessary for evil to take clear precedence over chaos for demons to make sense.  You seem to be focusing on chaos.  The two concepts are actually slightly contradictory.*



What I'm clearly failing to focus on is the contradiction itself. That is, the contradictory nature of these beings. I suspect you could make arguments for pretty much any alignment, actually. Taken to its pure state it becomes irrational. We don't say that about Good, of course, because who wants Good kooks?


> *I think the way to make it work best is to make them evil primarily, and chaotic secondarily.  When forced with a dilemma where they must choose between the two, they pick evil.  Thus there is some order and cooperation among demons as it serves their purposes, but only the bare minimum as suits self interest. *



Now that will work. I'd much rather just say that demons are, for example, shoggoths, from CoC, or mean Chaos Beasts, or something.

Now I don't use alignment, or the Outer Planes, or demons or devils at all in my campaign, so this is all intellectual frippery for me. I've certainly enjoyed it!


----------



## coyote6 (Oct 10, 2002)

I'm thinking that Henry's right -- the core difference of opinions is tied up in differing opinions about what it means to be Chaotic Evil, and exactly how "pure" a demon's CE-ness is. I think kenjib's & takyris' (and, tagging along, my) opinions about the basis -- alignment -- are simply different than The Serge's, UK's, etc. 

(and, of course, barsoomcore thinks CE's just silly; a notion with which I have to agree, really, but alas, there are plenty of silly people in the world, so why not in fictional game worlds? Especially if it gives you nasty critters to fight.  )

There's also possibly a related (at least it strikes me as related) disagreement about the underlying cosmology behind all these embodiments of chaos and evil living in the Abyss. To wit: are demons some sort of embodiement of Chaos and Evil, or are they just beings that are chaotic and evil by nature and nurture? 

In any case, it's been an interesting discussion so far. But it's almost time to leave work . . . 

PS: A couple of times, I've thought of Green Ronin's cosmology (as presented _Book of the Righteous_, _Armies of the Abyss_, etc.); if you haven't read BotR, I highly recommend it. Very interesting cosmology.


----------



## barsoomcore (Oct 10, 2002)

coyote6 said:
			
		

> *(and, of course, barsoomcore thinks CE's just silly; a notion with which I have to agree, really, but alas, there are plenty of silly people in the world, so why not in fictional game worlds? Especially if it gives you nasty critters to fight.  )*



Oh, I certainly have no right to throw stones on the silliness front. I run a campaign with ironclad airships that fly because they have a special metal in them that develop anti-gravity when heated. Is that sillier than CE? Well, alright, you got me there.


----------



## drnuncheon (Oct 10, 2002)

Upper_Krust said:
			
		

> *Hi drnuncheon!
> 
> I agree Demogorgon wouldn't commit his forces unless he has a perceived advantage such as Graz'zt's relative weakness in the Book of Vile Darkness - which was how the example initially arose.
> 
> If Demogorgon perceives an advantage he will act on it. *




But Graz'zt's relative weakness is *not* an advantage if taking him out leaves Demogorgon vulnerable to Orcus or another challenger.

You are perfectly right in that if it were just a two-party conflict (Demogorgon and Graz'zt), then Demogorgon would walk all over Graz'zt as soon as he thought he had the upper hand.

But Demogorgon doesn't exist with only Graz'zt.  There's Orcus to worry about too.  He has to think, "Gee, I _could_ stomp Graz'zt, but then Orcus would hit me with everything he's got, and he'd wind up in charge.  No way am I letting that fat loser get the best of me!  I'll leave six-finger for later."



> _Originally posted by barsoomcore_
> *
> 
> Because describe for me a situation in which Suzy WOULDN'T insist she enjoys a demon lord's protection? Whether it's true or not? Of course she's going to say, "Hey, those belong to Graz'zt, big boy." What other choice does she have? Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.*




It pays to be wary of who you claim allegiance to.  Word _will_ get around, and Graz'zt might not be happy if someone was 'using' him for protection that wasn't due them.

Let's put it this way...if you were walking around the bad part of LA, would you claim to be a Crip if you weren't?  There's danger there, too, and plenty of it.  Suzy might lie about it, but she'd better high-tail herself to a demon lord and _get_ some protection, or else someone's going to figure out that she isn't really under anyone's umbrella at all.  Maybe Graz'zt's homies have a secret handshake or something.  Maybe he brands them, I dunno.

See, your 'become safe by killing everyone else in the Abyss' idea might seem like the best path at first - until you realize that these demons, being not-stupid, are going to realize that they don't have a chance of doing that.  So they do the next best thing - they team up with someone bigger than them and try to make themselves useful to the big guy so that they don't get squashed by soneone else.

They're not doing it out of loyalty or a desire for order or any of the reasons anyone else might do it - they're doing it out of a desire for _survival_.  Getting yourself killed is definitely _not_ chaotic.

So why does a demon lord put up with weaker demons? Why does he trust them? Because they fear him. He can kick their tuckuses.  They are not going to betray him on a whim, because they are not stupid.  The succubus isn't going to say "I will not betray Graz'zt because he is my master" or "because he is good to me", she'll say "I am not going to betray Graz'zt because what it gets me isn't worth it."  And yeah, if she gets a better deal, she'll be gone.  But she'd better make damn sure it's a better deal.

It's all about survival.  In a Chaotic Evil society, if you are not one of the powerful, then you are either attached to one of the powerful, or you are a target.  A demon who could survive without the protection of someone more powerful would have to be either incredibly powerful, or very crafty - very crafty indeed.




> _Originally posted by barsoomcore_
> *
> Yes, intelligence and chaos are opposed, just as creativity and law are opposed. Just as compassion and evil, and self-interest and good are all opposed. Us poor humans, caught in the middle.*




You know, the only one of those I definitely agree with is the compassion and evil opposition.  If creativity and law are opposed, then how come Shakespeare's sonnets equal or surpass any free verse that I've seen? If self-interest and good are opposed, where does that leave the principle of enlightened self-interest?  Intelligence and chaos opposed - kenjib seems to be confusing the 'Chaos' of alignments with the 'chaos' of randomness.  'Chaos' in alignments is 'individualism', not randomness.

And for the record, I think that the really powerful Lovecraftian horrors - Azathoth, the Elder Gods and the like - are for the most part True Neutral, for the same reasons that animals and vermin are.  They're simply on such a different scale that human morality means nothing to them.  If humans are not evil for accidentally stepping on helpless ants, how can Azathoth be evil for doing the same?

(Nyarlathotep, I'll grant you.  He's the kid in the back yard with the magnifying glass on a sunny day.)

J


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## Johno (Oct 13, 2002)

There is one very good reason why a sole Demonic Ruler has not emerged.

The very fact that the other demons realise; 
"Unholy, fiendish pancakes!! Demon X has ursurped almost enough power to rule the Abyss himself!! IF this happens, we can kiss our hairy demonic butts goodbye!"

And so the rest of the trillion odd demons unite to defeat the upcoming star. But as soon as Demon X is no longer a threat to controlling the entire Abyss, the Alliance of Demonic Badness falls apart.

Thus the status quo of very powerful Demonic forces allied against each other continues, each trying to weddle, confound, trick, fool, lure, intimidate, and force the others to doing their bidding.

And there is never, ever any one powerful being that starts consuming the others in order to preserve his rulership.

Chaos is not against temporary alliances. Chaos is for change. Temporary, shifting alliances are all about change. Chaos is not against co-operation. Chaos is for individualism. Otherwise CG individuals would not be able to function in a group.


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## frankthedm (Oct 16, 2002)

Zelda Themelin said:
			
		

> *
> 
> And idea of deities being protected by their number of followers as suggested in Deities & Demigods, makes me doubt my sanity, to actually have wasted good money for such a book.
> 
> *




Kinda annoying, true but in D&D and especially 3E, the System of combat REALLY hoses singular entities even those with the BBEG syndrome. Having a buncha shlubs keeps the Main foe activce for quite a bit longer.


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