# Wish vs. Miracle



## Otterscrubber (Jan 23, 2004)

Why is it that an arcane caster must pay 5,000 xp for using this spell in any form and divine casters only pay the xp for essentially the same spell in certain situations?  What game balance issue was being addressed by this?


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## Ottergame (Jan 23, 2004)

As far as flavor goes, you can see the Wish as being a cold, neutral force that grants the casters will by payment, while a Miracle is an allied force willing to grant small powers to their faithful servents.

As far as game balance goes, I  think they see Wizards as being more flexablity in their high level spell list compared to a cleric, so this helps add a bit more options to the cleric spell line.


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## Epametheus (Jan 23, 2004)

I'd actually houserule that using Wish for spell-duplication costs significantly less than 5000 XP, if any at all.

The worst that can happen with a Miracle is that it just doesn't work (though I guess asking for something _really_ inappropriate could get a priest in trouble with the boss.  But it's basically tradition for DMs to screw over players that try to use Wish; the "safe list" in the Wish description is there just so that the spell is usable at all.

As they're writtern, they aren't balanced -- Miracle is straight-out better.  Clerics getting a superior version of Wish is probably just another side effect of the "let's make clerics really, really good" movement in 3E.


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## Stalker0 (Jan 23, 2004)

also, miracle's are given by a person's god, so there's every right to insist of roleplay reasons for using it. And of course, a god may say your using too many miracles, and not grant them... a wizard always gets something for his wish.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 23, 2004)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> also, miracle's are given by a person's god, so there's every right to insist of roleplay reasons for using it. And of course, a god may say your using too many miracles, and not grant them... a wizard always gets something for his wish.




But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?


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## dark2112 (Jan 23, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?




I've always worked wish (since I started DMing in 3.0) this way: You either twist the wording, or you take the xp cost. The old joke of an elf who's lost all his gear wishing for all his **** back, and getting buried in hundreds of years worth of feces, would really annoy a player who just spent 5,000 xp for that effect. I mean, I could get that out of a prestidigitation and some simple illusions...

For the record, the first time I play a caster in a game where my wish is twisted against me, and I pay 5,000 xp for it, is the last time I play a wizard in that game. That'd be akin to getting a finger reattached after an accident, but having to cut your hand off first so they can sew the finger on properly.


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## Viktyr Gehrig (Jan 23, 2004)

dark2112 said:
			
		

> For the record, the first time I play a caster in a game where my wish is twisted against me, and I pay 5,000 xp for it, is the last time I play a wizard in that game.




1) Extend hand, as if to request a high-five.
2) Slap the DM across the face.
3) Repeat as needed.

 At this point, I am beginning to believe that this procedure is the only possible way to combat the execrable idea that the only safe way to cast Wish is to hire a lawyer to word it for you. Monkeys' paws can be entertaining in fiction, but they're a stupid, stupid way to play a game, and are a symptom of an adversarial approach between the DM and the players-- and, as all such adversarial situations, the DM can abuse your Wish no matter how perfectly you worded it.

 Even originally, the Wish spell was only supposed to be twisted if the caster tried wishing for something well beyond the means of a 9th level spell. As I hear more and more about lawyerific players getting Wishes twisted by malevolent DMs, I am forced to conclude that future descriptions of this spell should be quite explicit that, instead of twisting the Wish, the appopriate response to an outrageous Wish is to have the spell fail.


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## Li Shenron (Jan 23, 2004)

I also think that the original idea behind Wish comes from the Aladdin's tale, where a Wish is asked to some powerful being who in exchange gets to be freed from his prison. This is more in line with Miracle (ask your God) that the Wish spell (who do you ask? magic? the universe?).

IIRC before 3rd edition the Cleric spells were only up to level VII, did Miracle used to be a 7th level spell? How was it? Or there wasn't any Miracle at all before 3.0?


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## glass (Jan 23, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I also think that the original idea behind Wish comes from the Aladdin's tale, where a Wish is asked to some powerful being who in exchange gets to be freed from his prison. This is more in line with Miracle (ask your God) that the Wish spell (who do you ask? magic? the universe?).
> 
> IIRC before 3rd edition the Cleric spells were only up to level VII, did Miracle used to be a 7th level spell? How was it? Or there wasn't any Miracle at all before 3.0?





It didn't exist. Neither did True Res, or most (all?) of the other 8th and 9th level cleric spells.

glass.


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## the Jester (Jan 23, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I also think that the original idea behind Wish comes from the Aladdin's tale, where a Wish is asked to some powerful being who in exchange gets to be freed from his prison. This is more in line with Miracle (ask your God) that the Wish spell (who do you ask? magic? the universe?).




The traditional 1e/2e answer was that wishes were granted by the closest Power.  This is why they're useless in direct conflict with deific-level entities in their home planes.


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## Senior Bobo (Jan 23, 2004)

I agree with the others.  The idea is that a Miracle is granted by your patron power who you've been serving presumably faithful for 17+ levels now.   Also, what you can ask for is generally limited by the power you follow.

A LG Wizard can, in extreme circumstances, wish to temporarily raise an entire graveyard full of undead to go combat some great evil.

A Cleric of a god dedicated against undead just isn't gonna have that happen with a Miracle.

In the end, it's like all other RP penalties.  If the DM chooses not to enforce it, then it's not really a penalty and it's out of balance.  To me it makes sense from a 'logical' point of view that miracles are more divine then arcane and should be easier for clerics.



			
				Korimyr the Rat said:
			
		

> At this point, I am beginning to believe that this procedure is the only possible way to combat the execrable idea that the only safe way to cast Wish is to hire a lawyer to word it for you. Monkeys' paws can be entertaining in fiction, but they're a stupid, stupid way to play a game, and are a symptom of an adversarial approach between the DM and the players-- and, as all such adversarial situations, the DM can abuse your Wish no matter how perfectly you worded it.




This triggered a bad flashback of the last time I ever used a wish in a game.  I have to share.

I was playing a level 15 warrior / cavalier type in a 2ed game.  As part of the backstory I was tasked with protecting the lives of 2 of the other party members.  After a huge encounter with a leiutenant of a BBEG we lived, but my Sun Blade Bastard Sword (named Glory) was disarmed from me and then summarily teleported without error into the Abyss.   We did, however, find on the bad guy a ring with 2 wishes.

The friendly wizard npc, obviously speaking for the dm, immediately notes that I could use a wish to get my sword back.   I, however, took the loss in stride and announced I was going to go find a decent, nonmagical, bastard sword and we could continue without it, claiming that I'd rather save the 2 wishes to bring back the people under my protection should something bad happen to them.  I thought I was being very selfless and all.

For 15 minutes the other players, and finally the dm, essentially demanded I use one wish to get my sword back, claiming I'd need it, saying I wasn't rp'ing properly even. (These people were seriously item focused).  The DM was adamant that I use the wish essentially stating that's the entire reason why he put the ring there.   They finally annoyed me to the point I said "Fine.  I wish to have Glory returned to me!"

I swear as God is my witness, the dm looked at me, shook his head and said "Well, ok, if that's your wish.  A bard arrives on the scene and begins following you around, singing of your accomplishments and bringing glory to the party."

We don't talk anymore.

Now that was a ring, and didn't cost xp.  In 3rd edition if I, or another party member, had spend 5000 xp and had that happen?  That would've been grounds for acquittal right there.  All I'd have needed was one gamer on the jury.

Don't anyone be that DM, please.


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## Plane Sailing (Jan 23, 2004)

Otterscrubber said:
			
		

> Why is it that an arcane caster must pay 5,000 xp for using this spell in any form and divine casters only pay the xp for essentially the same spell in certain situations?  What game balance issue was being addressed by this?




Ironically it falls foul of one of the most basic design mantras used in 3e... "don't balance a mechanical effect with a role-playing penalty".

But mechanically miracle is better than wish in all ways, yet the only "balancing" factor is if the DM should decide to include rp penalties to the likelihood of it happening.

What seems funny (in a sad kind of way) is that this is possibly the biggest single event in the game! What does it cost a wizard to get +5 to a stat via wishes? 25,000xp! What does it cost a cleric? zippo!

Regards,


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## Numion (Jan 23, 2004)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> What seems funny (in a sad kind of way) is that this is possibly the biggest single event in the game! What does it cost a wizard to get +5 to a stat via wishes? 25,000xp! What does it cost a cleric? zippo!




Miracle spell doesn't allow you to increase stats.


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## Otterscrubber (Jan 23, 2004)

IMHO, DMs who cling to monkey paw wishes need to get with the times.  Previously wishes were very unstructured and DMs were encouraged to mess with players who asked for things that were unbalanced or out of line to keep some sort of balance.  This is continued in 3e and 3.5, but at least there is some structure now as to what should be safe to cast. But along the way somehow this got twisted into "If your players are dumb enough to cast this spell they deserve what they get!"  

Now if you are getting a wish from a Glabrezu demon I can see how your simple, altruistic wish to resurrect your friend might not have the happy ending you envisioned, but other than that I think DMs need to remember this is a 9th level spell that should be working FOR the PC, not against him/her.

Now are far as Miracles being a better deal than wishes I am troubled that everyone seems to think deities are less vindictive/demanding than whatever force magic springs from. With regards to arcane magic, it seems to be pretty neutral when casting all the other spells, why would this one be different? I think that in an Fantasy RPG like D&D you can ratinalize anything so saying that the gods are easier to deal with does not make sense to me.  Neither does an arguement that wizards are more flexible than clerics that someone mentioned.  You do know that clerics have access to ALL of their spells while wizards generally don't?  How that is more flexible I would like to know.

Sounds like there is a game imbalance so far.  Too bad, as it is unlikely to get addressed or even properly explained at this point.


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## jontherev (Jan 23, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?




Lolth?


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## dravot (Jan 23, 2004)

Numion said:
			
		

> Miracle spell doesn't allow you to increase stats.



It's not clear whether it does or not.  The text for miracle doesn't specifically state that it will increase stats, like wish does, but the requirements for any of the stat books (like Tome of Clear Thought) are wish OR miracle.

I'd rule that they both increase stats, at 5000xp per increase.


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## jontherev (Jan 23, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> But you also have to take into account the traditional sport of screwing up every Wish by twisting the wording unless perfect. Which God would purposefully twist a Miracle of his Cleric if the PC is basically dedicating all his life to his God's will?




Lolth?


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## Numion (Jan 23, 2004)

dravot said:
			
		

> It's not clear whether it does or not.  The text for miracle doesn't specifically state that it will increase stats, like wish does, but the requirements for any of the stat books (like Tome of Clear Thought) are wish OR miracle.
> 
> I'd rule that they both increase stats, at 5000xp per increase.




Why is it then specifically included in the list of things you can do with Wish? 

Well at least cleric can't do it for zero exp as Plane Sailing claimed.


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## LightPhoenix (Jan 23, 2004)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> But it's basically tradition for DMs to screw over players that try to use Wish; the "safe list" in the Wish description is there just so that the spell is usable at all.



Yeah, and that tradition is one of the reasons I hate _Wish_.  You shouldn't be screwed over intentionally for trying to use your abilities.  I've always ruled it as simply not working if I didn't like the effect.


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## Suldulin (Jan 30, 2004)

personally I feel that if something outside of the list is wished for, then the magic takes the 'path of least resistance' to get as close to the effect as possible.

Only times I think the wish should be intentionally twisted is if some evil or prankster entity is granting the wish.


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## LGodamus (Jan 30, 2004)

they way i do the wish screwing is this:

There is no screwing if the PC casts the spell or uses a spell storing item:IE ring of wishes...he is using his own raw power to get what he wants..

the screwing comes in when you get a powerfull creature to "grant" your wish says a genie that is bound ...no one likes being bound so they stick to the wording but add in the screwing as extra to pay for binding them,  the only other screwing comes in when trying to get wishes from a sentient evil item.......if they take one of these wishes they deserve what they get


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## James McMurray (Jan 30, 2004)

The only time I have twisted wishes when running is if a) the grantor is evil or chaotic and b) the wish does not go along with the grantor's goals. 

For example, while running Return tot he Temple of Elemental Evil (3.0 style) the party found an efreet and freed it in exchange for 3 wishes. The first one had the party wishing for an item that could hurt the demi-lich they were going to have to fight. The efreet was pretty pissed at the demi-lich for capturing it, so it granted the wish tot he best of its abilities by creatinga mace that would explode (not damaging the wielder) when it his the lich. It was basically a one-shot +5 weapon.

The second wish was to move a statue that was covering a concealed door. The party was afraid that it was trapped or that the thing would animate if they got near it. The efreet quickly granted the wish, by teleporting the statue 1,000 miles away, and approiately one mile in the air above a temple of Pelor. The party got what they wanted, the efreet got what it wanted, and nobody in the group even knew they'd been used to kick a god of good in the jewels.

I hav no idea what the third wish was for, but I don't recall screwing the party ver on it, so it must not have been major, or I'm misremembering and there were only two wishes granted.


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