# Combat Reflexes a Rogue Must-Have Feat?



## Mistwell (Feb 17, 2007)

Forked from this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=3349779#post3349779

Where this was said:



			
				Quartz said:
			
		

> Pretty much every combat-oriented character takes the Power Attack feat. It's not that it's too good to not take it, rather that it gives the fighter character needed flexibility. One can say something similar for Combat Expertise. *And Combat Reflexes vis-a-vis Rogues.* But those are for other threads. (emphasis added)




Why is combat reflexes considered a must-have for rogues?

Sure, the feat gives extra attacks under certain circumstances, and any feat that gives extra attacks is useful.  But is it useful often enough?  And given it seems rare that it would apply when an opponent is denied their dex bonus to AC or is flat-footed, sneak attack will usually not apply.  It CAN apply, like if a foe is running past you, or if you are invisible or hidden (arguably) when they go past you, and a few other times, but most of the time it will just be a normal attack.  And normal attacks for rogues are not all that potent most of the time.

So, is it because it gives access to more powerful feats for a rogue?  From the books I have in front of me, I found this list of feats that have combat reflexes as a prerequisite: Expert Tactician, Defensive Throw, Hold the Line, Rapid Stunning, Hindering Opportunist, Stalwart Defense, Robliar's Gambit, Vexing Flanker, and Adaptable Flanker.

Of that list, only the last two seem particularly potent for a rogue.  Is that why the above statement was made, because combat reflexes gives you the option of picking up the three-feat chain that ends with Adaptable Flanker?

What am I missing here?  I like combat reflexes, and think it is useful.  But a must-have feat for a rogue?  I am not seeing it.  Enlighten me on your best tactics for combat reflexes and what might make it so darn useful that just about any rogue will want this feat at some point.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 17, 2007)

I play rogues often, and have only taken it once.  Really most useful for a 2-handed weapon fighter, I would think.  The new book, Complete Scoundrel, has a feat called Savvy Rogue, though.  It adds benefits to Rogue special abilities and the benefit for opportunist is the ability to use it as many times per round as you have AoO, but still only once per opponent per round.  Could be awesome, but hasn't been out long enough to make a splash.  Also, I'm not familiar with the PHB 2 feats, as I hate the book.  They may be the reason.

Heck, my Ranger's wolf gets a free trip after doing damage on AoO.  I think combat reflexes would be immensly more useful on him than on any of my previous rohue builds.


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## Nail (Feb 17, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> What am I missing here?  I like combat reflexes, and think it is useful.  But a must-have feat for a rogue?  I am not seeing it.



FWIW, I agree with you.

Adaptive Flanker is good.....but Combat Reflexes by itself isn't all that great for a Rogue.


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## EyeontheMountain (Feb 17, 2007)

For me, Combat Reflexes is only really worth it if you have reach, or a reach weapon. Otherwise you only get AoOs against people who shoot arrows or cast spells next to you(and a five foot step negates that) or people who move past you. Overall, I would consider it for a few seconds before taking something else. There are a lot of feats that wouldgive a stronger ability that could be sued all the time, not in a few special circumstances.


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## Nail (Feb 17, 2007)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> It adds benefits to Rogue special abilities and the benefit for opportunist is the ability to use it as many times per round as you have AoO, but still only once per opponent per round.



Nope.

The class ability Opportunist only allows the use 1/round.  Not 1/rd/opponent.


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## bestone (Feb 17, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Nope.
> 
> The class ability Opportunist only allows the use 1/round.  Not 1/rd/opponent.





Savvy rogue feat

opportunist: You can use this feat as many times per round as you have aoo's. *But no more than once per creature per round.* Each use of the opportunist ability counts as an attack of opportunity.


StreamOfTheSky is correct, if you read his whole post, he states its about the complete scoundrel rogue feat, savvy rogue


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## Piratecat (Feb 17, 2007)

Bestone, I bet you could have made your point considerably less rudely, eh? There's no need to be condescending about it when someone is mistaken; people are mistaken here all the time! that's aprt of the fun of discussing rules.

 Piratecat
 Admin


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## bestone (Feb 18, 2007)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Bestone, I bet you could have made your point considerably less rudely, eh? There's no need to be condescending about it when someone is mistaken; people are mistaken here all the time! that's aprt of the fun of discussing rules.
> 
> Piratecat
> Admin




Your right, apologies.


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## Quartz (Feb 18, 2007)

It's simply that Dex is the prime stat for rogues, and Combat Reflexes works off Dex. This makes rogues the best characters to take advantage of AoOs. Consider the fighter bull-rushing an opponent into striking range of the rogue. Consider the rogue flanking a group of opponents - the character can make their primary Sneak Attack and then if one should one step back or cast a spell, the rogue gets an AoO. Consider the rogue in a general melee. It's a very useful feat for a team player.


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## hong (Feb 18, 2007)

However, the thing with AoOs is that they're not under your control. Someone else has to do something to provoke them, and IME it's extremely rare that you'll get the chance to make more than 1 AoO in a round. Heck, even getting that 1 AoO is already pretty uncommon.

And you don't get an AoO if someone 5' steps and casts, or 5' steps and attacks with a bow.


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## bestone (Feb 18, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> And you don't get an AoO if someone 5' steps and casts, or 5' steps and attacks with a bow.




Sure you do, if you can still hit them


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## Particle_Man (Feb 18, 2007)

Robilar's Gambit from PHB II works nicely in synergy with Combat Reflexes, though if you are a Rogue you still would want Savvy Rogue and the Opportunist special ability (or find some other way to ensure you get sneak attack damage).


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## airwalkrr (Feb 18, 2007)

EyeontheMountain said:
			
		

> For me, Combat Reflexes is only really worth it if you have reach, or a reach weapon. Otherwise you only get AoOs against people who shoot arrows or cast spells next to you(and a five foot step negates that) or people who move past you. Overall, I would consider it for a few seconds before taking something else. There are a lot of feats that wouldgive a stronger ability that could be sued all the time, not in a few special circumstances.




Hit it on the head. That is exactly what Combat Reflexes is great for. I think the only reason some people have the misconception that rogues should take Combat Reflexes (when in reality it is a sub-par decision) is simply because rogues are based on Dex and Combat Reflexes is also based on Dex. They put two and two together, but unfortunately, this time it does not equal four. Unless the rogue specializes in reach weapons, it is rarely to his ultimate advantage.


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## Quartz (Feb 18, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> However, the thing with AoOs is that they're not under your control.



Very true, but if you fight as a team, then you can force AoOs on your opponents. Here's another example: the fighter trips the enemy you've just hit. Not only does he get another attack, so do you.

If you fight as isolated individuals, then Combat Reflexes is indeed not so good.


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## Klaus (Feb 18, 2007)

The mist-have feat for rogues is Telling Blow (PHB2). Adding sneak attack damage to every critical hit, regardless of flanking/flatfootedness, is BIG! It also makes crossbows more attractive than bows for rogues, with its larger threat range.


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## bestone (Feb 18, 2007)

Klaus said:
			
		

> The mist-have feat for rogues is Telling Blow (PHB2). Adding sneak attack damage to every critical hit, regardless of flanking/flatfootedness, is BIG! It also makes crossbows more attractive than bows for rogues, with its larger threat range.




mmm that + keen rapier wow...just.... wow


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## pawsplay (Feb 18, 2007)

One good reason to have Combat Reflexes is so that opponents with iterative attacks or multiple attacks don't start sundering or disarming you. Or multiple overruns and/or bullrushes. Or so you don't get rushed by Tiny summoned creatures. Or so a spellcaster, in the first round of combat, doesn't make a move and then slap a touch attack spell on you.


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## axp_dave (Feb 18, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> However, the thing with AoOs is that they're not under your control. Someone else has to do something to provoke them, and IME it's extremely rare that you'll get the chance to make more than 1 AoO in a round. Heck, even getting that 1 AoO is already pretty uncommon.
> 
> And you don't get an AoO if someone 5' steps and casts, or 5' steps and attacks with a bow.




I agree with Hong that is is not very common to get many AAO's in a combat, let alone for a rogue who is not always going to be in the front line.  I took this feat as a front line fighter and never had the opportunity to use it more than once in a while and regretted the feat.

As a rogue, who has a lot less feats than a fighter, I don't believe it is a wise choice.
David


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## Fieari (Feb 18, 2007)

Attacks of Opportunity don't come up multiple times a round often enough for it to be a must have by any means.  On the other hand, as a DM, I enjoy giving it to single big monsters, since 1) Reach means more chances it'll be used, and 2) Since it's a single monster going up against a party, you're basically guaranteed to have a use for it.

Combat Reflexes are good when you have reach, and when you're outnumbered.  Rarely if ever otherwise.


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## Victim (Feb 18, 2007)

Quartz said:
			
		

> Very true, but if you fight as a team, then you can force AoOs on your opponents. Here's another example: the fighter trips the enemy you've just hit. Not only does he get another attack, so do you.




Okay, that's one AoO per round.


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## Darklone (Feb 18, 2007)

You only get the AoO if the guy your fighter buddy tripped tries to get up. That's not certain either... 

If you want AoOs, get a reach weapon.


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## Klaus (Feb 19, 2007)

bestone said:
			
		

> mmm that + keen rapier wow...just.... wow



 Yep. Telling Blow at 1st, Weapon Finesse at 3rd and Improved Critical (rapier) or a +1 keen rapier and your rogue (or ninja, or scout, or dread commando...) will be dealing his ambush damage on any confirmed critical on a 15-20 range (1-in-3 chance).


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## Cabral (Feb 19, 2007)

hong said:
			
		

> And you don't get an AoO if someone 5' steps and casts, or 5' steps and attacks with a bow.



Normally, a 5' step never provokes an AoO, but if your combat reflexing rogue takes some martial feats (Martial Study and something else) to get the level 3 Devoted Spirit stance Glade of Thickets (I may have the name and/or discipline wrong.), then those 5' steps provoke. Actually, IIRC, all movement, including tumbling, provokes.  

It's a few feats but if you want a little more control over attacks of opportunities, you may want to consider it.

"He takes a 5' step back to cast ..."
"I make an AoO trip attack"
"but, but, but ..."


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## hong (Feb 19, 2007)

Cabral said:
			
		

> Normally, a 5' step never provokes an AoO, but if your combat reflexing rogue takes some martial feats (Martial Study and something else) to get the level 3 Devoted Spirit stance Glade of Thickets (I may have the name and/or discipline wrong.), then those 5' steps provoke. Actually, IIRC, all movement, including tumbling, provokes.
> 
> It's a few feats but if you want a little more control over attacks of opportunities, you may want to consider it.
> 
> ...



 It's Combat Reflexes 3 all over again!!!1


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## 1500run (Feb 19, 2007)

Cabral said:
			
		

> Normally, a 5' step never provokes an AoO, but if your combat reflexing rogue takes some martial feats (Martial Study and something else) to get the level 3 Devoted Spirit stance Glade of Thickets (I may have the name and/or discipline wrong.), then those 5' steps provoke. Actually, IIRC, all movement, including tumbling, provokes.
> 
> It's a few feats but if you want a little more control over attacks of opportunities, you may want to consider it.
> 
> ...




yeah, all of what you named is broken.  i'd never allow it in my campaign.


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## Legildur (Feb 19, 2007)

Unless you were determined to take the Vexing Flanker etc sequence of feats, then I would never bother with Combat Reflexes as a rogue.

I've only seen about 3 characters in my live games that have ever taken it - a monk (bonus 2nd level feat), my Bbr/Clr/Ftr spiked chain wielder (using Enlarge Person from the Strength domain), and a paladin..... The feat was next to useless for the paladin, except for the time we got swamped by Stirges.  My tripping monk got some good use from it (often enlarged by the Sorceror) and my spiked chain wielder has already had several occasions where he got 3 AOOs (for movement) in one round.


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## Cabral (Feb 19, 2007)

1500run said:
			
		

> yeah, all of what you named is broken.  i'd never allow it in my campaign.



I don't see why. Combat Reflexes is generally considered underpowered.

Oh and the other stuff, remember that a pure Rogue can qualify for a 3rd level stance only at 10th level. (Requires Martial Adept initiator level of 5, rogues have a martial adept initator level of 1/2 the class levels.)

So, you take a weak feat and spend two more to make it useful. In the end, it's likely still a weak combo. Particularly since it revolves around the rogue standing in the middle of a group of opponents in order to be most effective. I mean, in order to set yourself to get a few AoOs as the enemy(ies) charge the fighter, you have to be between the fighter and the foes ... at which point, why wouldn't they just charge you?

IMO, it's like Diehard, it appears better than it is.


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## 1500run (Feb 19, 2007)

Cabral said:
			
		

> I don't see why. Combat Reflexes is generally considered underpowered.
> 
> Oh and the other stuff, remember that a pure Rogue can qualify for a 3rd level stance only at 10th level. (Requires Martial Adept initiator level of 5, rogues have a martial adept initator level of 1/2 the class levels.)
> 
> ...




combat reflexes is weak, no doubt about it.  but the other feats are _persona non grata_ in my book.  why?  for a rogue, yeah, they're not all that bad.  but if you allow the rogue to have them, they why can't the fighter have them too?  then the second fighter wants them.  and the cleric, maybe.  then all the baddies pick it as a "must have" feat chain.  no, allowing AoOs on 5' steps is broken, no matter which way you slice it.  no character should be allowed that.

*edit*
also, that entire book is broken, and a waste of money.


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## Mistwell (Feb 19, 2007)

1500run said:
			
		

> *edit*
> also, that entire book is broken, and a waste of money.




Wow.  Way to paint with the broadest possible brush, and widest strokes to boot!


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## Sithobi1 (Feb 19, 2007)

I suppose you'd consider the Knight broken, too, since it prevents 5ft stepping entirely...


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## hong (Feb 19, 2007)

Hold person is broken. You can't even move!


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## 1500run (Feb 19, 2007)

hey, look.  if you all want to bang on a relatively new poster, then fine.  beat up on me.  i know pirate cat isn't going to warn anyone who is a regular poster anyway.

but most of that IS broken.  heck, most of what WotC put out after the core is broken in one way or another.  they know that suckers will just keep plunking down money if they release new product, and after a while, power-gamer PCs will stop buying if the relative power level doesn't increase.

some isn't broken, like the warmage.  the warmage is underpowered.  but the beguiler is broken, no two ways about it.  the knight is slightly broken.  so is the warlock.  the scout is mostly fine.  etc, etc, etc.

*edit*
we're also getting away from the topic, as it were.


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## Legildur (Feb 19, 2007)

1500run said:
			
		

> hey, look.  if you all want to bang on a relatively new poster, then fine.  beat up on me.  i know pirate cat isn't going to warn anyone who is a regular poster anyway.



What are you saying? That regular posters get special treatmen? It think you are wrong (a bit like your 'everything is broken' sweeping statement).  If you hang around the boards long enough, then you'll see mods warning regular posters on occasion. Usually for only minor infractions.... but I have seen a suspension and life ban as well.


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## Piratecat (Feb 19, 2007)

1500run said:
			
		

> hey, look.  if you all want to bang on a relatively new poster, then fine.  beat up on me.  i know pirate cat isn't going to warn anyone who is a regular poster anyway.



Bwah ha ha! I've actually suspended more people this month than I have in the preceding four combined, and _every one of them_ was a regular poster. One had over 3000 posts. So I'm not exactly sure where that complaint comes from; you're welcome to email me about it if you want to satisfy my curiosity. In fact, complaints about moderators should always be handled by email and not in the forums, please. 

But what you're seeing here is people objecting to the unilateral statements "no, allowing AoOs on 5' steps is broken, no matter which way you slice it. no character should be allowed that." and "also, that entire book is broken, and a waste of money." You may not realize it, but what you're saying in those sentences is "This is the truth and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong." If you had phrased them as less of an absolute, I suspect that the reception would have been much less sarcastic.

There's nothing wrong with holding strong opinions. When you force them on other people as 'Teh troof!', however - "the beguiler is broken, no two ways about it" - arguments tend to blossom. Please avoid that particular style of arguing. I think you'll find the discussions a lot more interesting and hospitable when you do.

And... back on subject, please. Anyone who wants to discuss this further should drop me a line.


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## Seeten (Feb 19, 2007)

1500run said:
			
		

> hey, look.  if you all want to bang on a relatively new poster, then fine.  beat up on me.  i know pirate cat isn't going to warn anyone who is a regular poster anyway.
> 
> but most of that IS broken.  heck, most of what WotC put out after the core is broken in one way or another.  they know that suckers will just keep plunking down money if they release new product, and after a while, power-gamer PCs will stop buying if the relative power level doesn't increase.
> 
> ...




If the Beguiler is broken, the Cleric is positively smashed, and so is the Druid.

Since 2 of the main core classes are smashed wide open, I guess its ok for Scout to be slightly broken, since slightly broken means "balanced ok" compared to smashed base classes.

Or we are using Broken to mean "Not at all broken"


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## Piratecat (Feb 19, 2007)

*I must not have been clear when I asked that the thread return to on-topic - which, judging by the first post, is the value of combat reflexes. Anyone who would like to discuss class balance is welcome to start a new thread. Stay away from continuing this argument -- and that means that everyone would need to discuss actual rules, not just use sarcasm and hyperbole to try and score points. 

Ahem. 

*whistles casually**


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## Nail (Feb 19, 2007)

bestone said:
			
		

> Savvy rogue feat



Ooops.  Missed that.

So.....Combat Reflexes is a "must have" feat for rogues because:

If they take Combat Reflexes,

And then they take Savvy Rogue feat,

And then they are 10th level,

And then they take the Opportunist ability,

....they can make an extra AoO (1 per opponent per round) aganist targets struck by someone else?

Do I have that right?


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## Gort (Feb 19, 2007)

Well, in my opinion, rogue melee attacks are pretty worthless unless you're getting the sneak attack damage. Since AoOs are provoked by other entities, you don't usually get sneak attack because it's very situational, so the feat's not worth much on its own.

I've never actually seen anyone use the feat, either, but on the other hand I haven't seen many characters using reach weapons/effects, so I suppose it's not surprising.


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## Darklone (Feb 19, 2007)

Gort said:
			
		

> Well, in my opinion, rogue melee attacks are pretty worthless unless you're getting the sneak attack damage. Since AoOs are provoked by other entities, you don't usually get sneak attack because it's very situational, so the feat's not worth much on its own.
> 
> I've never actually seen anyone use the feat, either, but on the other hand I haven't seen many characters using reach weapons/effects, so I suppose it's not surprising.



I've had too many ftr/rog, bbn/rog, clr/rog and other rogue multiclass builds, often with twohanded PA weapons to concur. Rogue melee attacks are IMHO as dangerous as any melee attacks if the character is not build to be a sneaking halfling rogue (and I've seen and used some ugly builds for these as well). These rogues have been deadly and more so if they qualified for sneak attacks. 

I do remember one of the first big battles in 3.0 when that group (9 dudes and everyone wanted skillpoints) happened to stumble into a white dragon that was supposed to be too strong for them... Then flanking happened, rage helped to hit, sneak attack damage with greatswords and greataxes sliced the dragon apart in less than two rounds and I had a bunch of players with much too much money on their hands.


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## Particle_Man (Feb 19, 2007)

I'd say that Combat Reflexes can be nice for Rogues with builds tailored to getting lots of Aoos per round, but since such a build is not for every rogue, neither is combat reflexes.

Thus, not every (or even most every) rogue should take that feat.

To contrast, *every* druid should take the Natural Spell feat.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 20, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Ooops.  Missed that.
> 
> So.....Combat Reflexes is a "must have" feat for rogues because:
> 
> ...




Well, note that no where in the description of Opportunist does it require the rogue to use a melee sneak attack (and they're usually so irritatingly careful about that....poor, poor archer rogues of mine   ).  So, I was just trying to offer a possible reason.  That for an archer rogue, who is generally strapped for SA chances, the ability to have his fighter buddy ping multiple enemies and then get free SA on them all may be tempting.  Still not sure it's worth the investment, but maybe.


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## bestone (Feb 20, 2007)

Nail said:
			
		

> Ooops.  Missed that.
> 
> So.....Combat Reflexes is a "must have" feat for rogues because:
> 
> ...




Never once did i say its the must have feat, i simply said you were incorrect, which you were.

That just adds an extra option to thigns you can do with combat reflexes


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 20, 2007)

bestone said:
			
		

> mmm that + keen rapier wow...just.... wow




How about Keen rapier with the Power critical feat?

Or the luck feat that uses a reroll for the day to make a nat. 1 a nat. 20?

Or for real (literal) overkill, combine it with the feat that lets you coup-de-grace as a standard (Deathblow?)


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## Nail (Feb 20, 2007)

bestone said:
			
		

> ... i simply said you were incorrect, which you were.



Indeed.


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## Squire James (Feb 20, 2007)

StreamOfTheSky said:
			
		

> How about Keen rapier with the Power critical feat?
> 
> Or the luck feat that uses a reroll for the day to make a nat. 1 a nat. 20?
> 
> Or for real (literal) overkill, combine it with the feat that lets you coup-de-grace as a standard (Deathblow?)




Not to nitpick or anything (OK, I'm nitpicking), but even with Deathblow you still need to fulfill the other conditions of a coup-de-grace (i.e. the opponent being helpless).  Lacking Dex bonus is miles away from helpless.

I've found most rapier builds, keen or otherwise, not to be terribly effective unless the character has lots of power behind his blows.  Most of the time, it's just another +1d6 to damage.


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## 1500run (Feb 20, 2007)

PC, you're right.  i should have not posted that comment to begin with, and if i ever have beef, it should go to you first.  i'm sorry.

i still stand by my assessment that much of the non-core WotC stuff is broken, though i can understand why most people disagree.

i'll frame my arguments in a more civilized and structured manner in the future.

...end of this; back to topic, and i hope that everyone will forgive me for returning to it after most of a day--work got in the way.


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## Mistwell (Feb 20, 2007)

1500run said:
			
		

> PC, you're right.  i should have not posted that comment to begin with, and if i ever have beef, it should go to you first.  i'm sorry.
> 
> i still stand by my assessment that much of the non-core WotC stuff is broken, though i can understand why most people disagree.
> 
> ...




Welcome to the boards.  It takes some adjusting, but I hope you know we accept you and welcome your participation.  So far, you have had some interesting things to say.  And you certainly got our attention.

Anyway, on topic, I am running a rogue right now with exotic weapon - greatspear (a feat I received for free, and the greatspear is a reach weapon from Complete Warrior) along with dodge and mobility.  Would folks say that Combat Reflexes is a must-have feat for that kind of rogure?


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## Legildur (Feb 20, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Anyway, on topic, I am running a rogue right now with exotic weapon - greatspear (a feat I received for free, and the greatspear is a reach weapon from Complete Warrior) along with dodge and mobility.  Would folks say that Combat Reflexes is a must-have feat for that kind of rogure?



Must have?  Not sure.  Certainly useful.  but I guess it depends on what role your rogue typically fulfills.

Our rogue in the World's Largest Dungeon wielding a +2 holy longspear doesn't have any combat related feats - except Weapon Finesse.  He has no intention of taking Combat Reflexes as he typically uses the spear from the second rank to Aid Another.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Feb 20, 2007)

Squire James said:
			
		

> Not to nitpick or anything (OK, I'm nitpicking), but even with Deathblow you still need to fulfill the other conditions of a coup-de-grace (i.e. the opponent being helpless).  Lacking Dex bonus is miles away from helpless.




No, no.  That's what I meant when I said "(literal) overkill," as in more than is necessary when the opponent is already down.  It was just a joke, which I guess wasn't a very good one.  In fact, now that I have the clarity of being awake well towards sunrise, a rogue gets sneak attack on a CDG automatically anyway.


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## Geoff Watson (Feb 20, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Welcome to the boards.  It takes some adjusting, but I hope you know we accept you and welcome your participation.  So far, you have had some interesting things to say.  And you certainly got our attention.
> 
> Anyway, on topic, I am running a rogue right now with exotic weapon - greatspear (a feat I received for free, and the greatspear is a reach weapon from Complete Warrior) along with dodge and mobility.  Would folks say that Combat Reflexes is a must-have feat for that kind of rogure?




Combat Reflexes is a must-have if you're wielding a reach weapon. I don't know what being a Rogue has to do with it.

Geoff.


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## Klaus (Feb 20, 2007)

Squire James said:
			
		

> Not to nitpick or anything (OK, I'm nitpicking), but even with Deathblow you still need to fulfill the other conditions of a coup-de-grace (i.e. the opponent being helpless).  Lacking Dex bonus is miles away from helpless.
> 
> I've found most rapier builds, keen or otherwise, not to be terribly effective unless the character has lots of power behind his blows.  Most of the time, it's just another +1d6 to damage.



 That's why Telling Blow is a must-have for this build. Adding sneak attack/skirmish damage to every critical hit is HUGE!


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## Piratecat (Feb 20, 2007)

1500run said:
			
		

> i'll frame my arguments in a more civilized and structured manner in the future.



It's totally okay - and that's certainly appreciated.  Welcome!


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