# First Look at the Complete Divine



## Westwind (May 12, 2004)

I just got a copy of the Complete Divine today and I'm skimming through it for the first time right now.  Here are a few tidbits, I'll try to post more later on tonight but I might not be around.

Chaper 1: The Devoted
This chapter covers new 20-level clesses (Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, and Favored Soul).  Spirit Shaman is the only new one and it looks pretty cool.  Access to a set number of spells/day and some nifty anti-spirit (fey, elemental, incorporeal undead, astral forms) powers.  No unarmed martial powers.

Chapter 2: Prestige Classes
I think they've all been covered elsewhere.  The only one that struck me as being a possible problem is the Radiant Servant of Pelor, which looks unchanged from its Dragon version.

Chapter 3: Supplemental Rules
Feat, feats, and more feats.  Two "new" types of feats: divine and wild.  Divine feats let you spend a turn attempt to do something else (there are 10 of them plus True Believer), wild feats are the same except you spend a wild shape use for a physical improvement for a short period of time.  In general, some of the feats look very nice (Augment Healing: +2 to healing spells/level, Spontaneous Healer: allows non-clerics to swap out spells for healing spells--this could break the Druid).   There are also variant rules for faith points and feats you can use faith points (sort of like action points from UA).  Epic rules are included as well at the end.

Chaper 4: Magic Items
Somewhere between artifacts and magic items there are relics.  They seem pretty cool actually.  They have "prices" but it's not like you'll find them for sale.  You need either True Believer+ X number of HD or the sacrifice of a given level spell slot to use them.  Also included are some new non-relic staves.

Chapter 5: Deities
Each core deity is described in terms of portfolio, domains, cleric training (who they take in), quests, prayers (role-playing device), temples, rites, herald, and relics.  The herald is just a very brief description ("almost always a 20th level Wizard," not a stat block).  Brief write-ups are also given for Beltar, Bralm, Celestian, Cyndor, Delleb, Geshtai, Incabulos, Istus, Iuz, Joramy, Lirr, Llerg, Mouqol, Osprem, Pholtus, Procan, Pyremius, Rao, Telchur, Tharizdun, Trithereon, Wastri, Xan Yae, and Zuoken.  Monster deities are also here.

Chapter 6: The Divine World
Things to do in Denver (or another plane) when you're dead.  This chapter details what dying entails, where you might go, and things you can do once you're there.  It also talks about church organizations, sects, schisms, and cults.

Chapter 7: Domains and Spells
New domains include Celerity, Cold, Community, Competition, Creation, Domination, Dream, Force, Glory, Inquisition, Liberation, MadnessMind, Mysticism, Oracle, Pact, Pestilence, Purification, Summoner, and Weather.  Some were new to me, but the majority were revisions or reprints.  Also some new spells that I haven't looked over yet.

There are a few editing errors and the infamous page XX shows up, but it looks like a pretty crunchy book all-in-all.  If you already have the 3.0 versions you can do most of the conversions on your own, but it's worth buying if you are running 3.5 and play divine-based characters.  Maybe I missed it, but I would've liked to have seen more "everyday life and the divine" material.


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## Nightfall (May 12, 2004)

When you say Monster Deities, does that include the Archfiends as well?


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## Trainz (May 12, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> Chaper 1: The Devoted
> This chapter covers new 20-level clesses (Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, and Favored Soul).



Could you please expand on those ?

Thanks !


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## Westwind (May 12, 2004)

@Nightfall

No, it's just a table at the end of the chapter giving alignment, domains, favorite weapon and divine rank for non-human deities. Annam, Blidoolpoolp, Callarduran Smoothhands, Deep Sashelas, Diirinka, Eadro, Great Mother, Grolantor, Hiatea, Hruggek, Iallanis, Ilsensine, Kaelthiere, Laduguer, Laogzed, Maglubiyet, Memnor, Merrshaulk, Panzuriel, Sekolah, Semuanya, Shekinester, Skoraeus Stonebones, Sixin, Skerrit, Stronmaus, Surtur, Thrym, and Vaprak.

Relics are all deity-specific and I don't generally play using the Greyhawk pantheon but they are generally useful.  Basically, a relic is a normal magic item (generally with many powers, but recognizable) whose cost is discounted 400 x spell slot x minimum cleric level as a rule of thumb.  Armor of the Fallen Leaves (+3 wild full plate that allows you to scatter to the wind in the form of leaves mimicing gaseous form) looks nice, Bow of Wintermoon (+4 composite [whatever your strength is] frost, drowbane longbow) appeals to me just because it fits a character of mine really well, Executioner's Hood (gives a bonus to coup de grace attempts) has great uses for NPCs.

Feats that strike me as notable off the bat are Augment Healing (+2 per spell level to healing rolls), Improved Smiting (overcome alignment DR +1d6 damage), Spontaneous Healer (making Druids really good), Disciple of the Sun (spend an extra turn attempt to destroy undead ala greater turning), Divine Metamagic (spend a number of turning attempts equal to the level increase of a single set metamagic feat to apply that feat to a spell--can be chosen multiple times), Elephant's Hide (+7 natural armor for 10 minutes).

@ Trainz

The Shugenja looks like the same class from Oriental Adventures, although non-Rokugan families are included in the book.  Charisma is used as the primary stat instead of linking each element to a different stat, which is a loss in my book.

Favored Soul looks like the same class from the Miniatures Handbook (which I don't own, so I might miss something here).  All good saves, mid-level BAB.  Charisma is used to cast the spell (i.e. spells known), Wisdom sets the spell's DC.  It also gains energy resistance over time (new types at levels 5,10,15), wings (level 17) and DR (10/silver or cold iron, depending on alignment) at level 20.

The Spirit Shaman uses the Druid spell list, has good Fort and Will saves and a mid-level BAB.  His spells known/spells per day tables look slightly weaker than the Sorcerer (one 1st level spell known at 1st character level, can be cast twice per day).  He can switch out spells known every day after an hour of quiet meditation.  They also have a spirit guide, which is NOT a separate entity.  It exists only in the Shaman's head.  It grants the Alertness feat and can do some nifty things at higher levels.  For example, at 10th level the spirit guide can maintain concentration on a spell for you, so you're free to cast other spells.  At 5th level the spirit guide gives you an ability similar to slippery mind.  Characteristics of different totems are given, but there is no mechanical difference.

@Erian

No point of reference since I don't own Mini-Handbook, but it looks pretty powerful.

The Evangelist is a 5-level prestige class that doesn't get spell progression but does get some pretty cool powers.  At 5th level they can convert the unfaithful, which boils down to a Will save or convert for concentration+3 rounds.  You can't use it on creatures with an alignment subtype but, and here's the catch, the Paladin/Blackguard/Cleric needs to atone even after the duration ends.

The domains are "normal" domains, though many are toned down from 3.0.


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## Nightfall (May 12, 2004)

Darn no Orcus. 

Okay well moving along, expand more on Relics, and highlight some of your favorite Divine Feats. Also perhaps a list of the spells in the Domains and Spell listing...


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## erian_7 (May 12, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> I just got a copy of the Complete Divine today and I'm skimming through it for the first time right now.  Here are a few tidbits, I'll try to post more later on tonight but I might not be around.




Thanks!   



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chaper 1: The Devoted
> This chapter covers new 20-level clesses (Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, and Favored Soul).  Spirit Shaman is the only new one and it looks pretty cool.  Access to a set number of spells/day and some nifty anti-spirit (fey, elemental, incorporeal undead, astral forms) powers.  No unarmed martial powers.




Any change in the Favored Soul from what was printed in the Miniatures Handbook (hoping so...)?



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 2: Prestige Classes
> I think they've all been covered elsewhere.  The only one that struck me as being a possible problem is the Radiant Servant of Pelor, which looks unchanged from its Dragon version.




What does the Evangelist look like?  I'm curious as it shares a name with a 20 level Core class from Dragon, but didn't really seem like a class that could be turned into a PrC.



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 7: Domains and Spells
> New domains include Celerity, Cold, Community, Competition, Creation, Domination, Dream, Force, Glory, Inquisition, Liberation, MadnessMind, Mysticism, Oracle, Pact, Pestilence, Purification, Summoner, and Weather.  Some were new to me, but the majority were revisions or reprints.  Also some new spells that I haven't looked over yet.




Are these Prestige domains, or "normal" domains (available to clerics at 1st level)?  Most I recognize as previously being Prestige domains.



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> There are a few editing errors and the infamous page XX shows up, but it looks like a pretty crunchy book all-in-all.  If you already have the 3.0 versions you can do most of the conversions on your own, but it's worth buying if you are running 3.5 and play divine-based characters.  Maybe I missed it, but I would've liked to have seen more "everyday life and the divine" material.




Eeh, I'll buy it just 'cause I buy everything from WotC, the good, the bad, and the ugly...


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## Mercule (May 12, 2004)

Are the rules in CD for relics at all similar to the horrid design of relics in BoED, or are they something worthwhile?


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## Belen (May 12, 2004)

Whoa...this really sounds like a power-up for divine casting.  I'll have to delve through this one with a fist sized grain of salt.


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## Longbow (May 12, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> No, it's just a table at the end of the chapter giving alignment, domains, favorite weapon and divine rank for non-human deities.  Annam, Blidoolpoolp, Callarduran Smoothhands, Deep Sashelas, Diirinka, Eadro, Great Mother, Grolantor, Hiatea, Hruggek, Iallanis, Ilsensine, Kaelthiere, Laduguer, Laogzed, Maglubiyet, Memnor, Merrshaulk, Panzuriel, Sekolah, Semuanya, Shekinester, Skoraeus Stonebones, Sixin, Skerrit, Stronmaus, Surtur, Thrym, and Vaprak.




Sounds a lot like the chapter in Defenders of the Faith about monster deities. Yay...


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## Tzarevitch (May 12, 2004)

If you have time, could you give a hint of how they changed the following:

Shugenja
Sacred Fist
Hospitaler
Pious Templar

(I know WotC gave a bit of sneak peak of the new Pious Templar but the bit about what abilities came in on which levels was left out.) 

Tzarevitch


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## Westwind (May 12, 2004)

Yeah, it is a lot of reprinted material.  If you're DM is too lazy to convert or your sick of fighting over the Hospitaler, then it's worth it.  But, like the Complete Warrior, you don't need it.  I like the idea of using turning attempts for other things, so I picked it up pretty much for that and the relics.

Complete Warrior and Complete Divine are both power-ups for their respective classes.  I assume the rest of the series will do the same, which is tough for arcanists currently playing.  It's not a question of game balance though, just release dates.  These books might contain things though that would throw off your campaign's balance, so read carefully.


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## HighlandsBear (May 12, 2004)

If you have the time - what did they do to my Holy Liberator??


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## Bill Muench (May 12, 2004)

If you could post any info on the Contemplative, Divine Oracle, and Seeker of the Misty Isle (?) PrCs, I'd really appreciate it. Mostly any notable changes for the first two (can arcane casters still become Oracles?) and just the general gist of the latter. Thanks!


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## Michael Tree (May 12, 2004)

What does the domain spontenaity feat do?  What are the prerequisites of the spontaneous healing feat?


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## Westwind (May 12, 2004)

Alright, for some reason the boards are really slow for me so I'm not sure I'll be able to answer as often as some would like--sorry about that.

@Tzarevitch
The Shugenja looks pretty similar to the OA version without the OA nuance.  There are orders/families your character can belong to but in terms of mechanics I can't see an immediate difference (Elemental Focus is only +1, but that's in line with the 3.5 changes).

The Sacred Fist is actually readable (go page layout)!  It does not have its own spell progression, 8 of the 10 levels add to pre-existing caster levels.  Monk abilities, like unarmed damage dice, AC bonus, and movement are also progresssed.  You pretty much need to be a Cleric/Monk to meet the prereqs for this class and you'll advance elements of both classes.  At 10th level it gets Inner Armor, which adds +4 to AC and saves 1/day for a number of rounds equal to Wisdom modifier.  Sacred Flame is usable 1-2/day and adds fire damage to your unarmed strike.  Damage equals class level + Wis mod.

Hospitaler makes sense!  7 of 10 levels advance spell casting, there is no turning, lay on hands is there and you'll get 3 feats total from the class.  With the changes to the Paladin in 3.5 you're actually giving stuff up to take this class now, which makes sense.

Pious Templar looks similar to its old version, except for the changes already noted.  Level 1: Mettle, 2: Smite 1/day, 3: DR 1/- and Weapon Specialization, 4: Bonus Feat, 5: -, 6: Smite 2/day, 7: DR 2/-, 8: Feat, 9:-, 10: Smite 3/day.  Spell progression is a little faster than Paladin's.

@HighlandsBear
They still cast holy sword.  In fact, they have the Paladin list (minus Law spells) plus a few spells, like heroism and protection from law.  They can remove fatigue, smite evil, break enchantment, get divine grace, and are resistant to compulsion and charm effects.  There are also rules for ex-Paladins, which look like the Blackguard rules.

@Bill
Seeker of the Misty Isle is an elf prestige class.  Once Corellon poked out Gruumsh's eye, Gruumsh took revenge by stealing the Misty Isle, a beautiful elven community.  The class grants decent spell progression (8/10), 2 extra domains over time (Magic and Travel), and a few movement and divination powers.

Again, don't have the 3.0 books to compare but the Divine Oracle looks the same--not sure Trap Sense is needed on a Cleric but it makes sense theme-wise.

@Michael
Choose a domain.  You can swap prepared spells for spells from that domain just like swapping for cure spells.  You can take it multiple times (once for each domain you have).

knowledge (religion) 4 ranks, nonevil alignment, ability to cast any _cure_ spell.  It's worth noting that Spontaneous Wounder also exists, but that's probably not going to be as popular.


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## Kobold Avenger (May 12, 2004)

Here's a few questions

What's the Geomancer like?  Is there any differences to that class?

And what's the Pious/Profane Boost feats?

What do the Wild feats with names like Grizzly's claws, Serpent's Venom or Cheetah's Speed do?  Are they bonuses and special abilities that only apply when wildshaped or are they available for use in any form, or a special forms a druid can take?


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## ForceUser (May 12, 2004)

Hi.

I'm a 3.5 druid. I have Natural Spell, Spontaneous Healing & Augment Healing, which means I'm about as good a healer as a cleric. I can spontaneously summon up nature's allies; I can also _wildshape_ into a dire bear or a huge fire elemental, I'm immune to poisons, I leave no tracks, and I can _alter self_ at will. Additionally, I'm a full-fledged spellcaster, the 2nd- or 3rd-best nuker in the game depending on where you rank me in relation to sorcerers & wizards, and I have several vital & unique buffs that no other full-fledged spellcaster gets. And I have 2 great saves and a d8 hit die. 

I am your muthua-fXXXin' daddy.


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## Knight Otu (May 12, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> The Shugenja looks like the same class from Oriental Adventures, although non-Rokugan families are included in the book. Charisma is used as the primary stat instead of linking each element to a different stat, which is a loss in my book.



That part led me me to double check my OA and Rokugan books. The shugenja in both books use Charisma as their primary stat, it is not linked to different stats. Did I miss anything?


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## Westwind (May 12, 2004)

Sacred Boost allows you to spend a turn attempt (standard action) so that any cure spell you cast next turn is maximized as long as the creature was within 60' when you used the feat.  Profane does the same for inflict spells.  Interesting--I'm wondering how this will test out vs. undead.

Geomancers still get drift and slowly shift in appearance and ability.  Some of the abilities are nice, but nothing that strikes me as game-breaking.  Spell versitility is around and looks like an interesting way to avoid arcane failure.  Full spell progression.

The wild feats give you an aspect of the animal chosen.  Boar's ferocity lets you function between 0 and -9 hps, for example.  They can be used in any form.


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## Omand (May 12, 2004)

*Domains?*

Hello,

Just to verify, you have listed all of the domains given in the book, yes?

Thanks for taking the time to do so.  The list looks interesting, but I was hoping for a revision of the Artifice & Repose domains.  I suppose they might make it in another book though (Artifice in the Complete Expert or whatever it ends up being?).

Thanks again.

Cheers


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## Kae'Yoss (May 12, 2004)

Anything an Arcanist can take?


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## Chupacabra (May 12, 2004)

Ugh, looks like I may just have to add this book to the ever-growing "Want to Buy" list.


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## Drezden327 (May 12, 2004)

Just a couple of questions from me:

Do Sacred Excorcist and Divine Oracle still allow arcane casters into them and do they still advance arcane caster level for all 10 levels?

Do Pious Templar and Holy Liberator still both have full 10 level BAB progression and do they still both have good Will and Fort. saves?

Thanks,

Daren


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## Apok (May 12, 2004)

Quick question; does Sacred Fist still get the No Shadow Blows ability (the only ability that makes this class worthwhile, IMO) and, if so, does it work the same as in 3.0?


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## Knightfall (May 13, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> I just got a copy of the Complete Divine today and I'm skimming through it for the first time right now.  Here are a few tidbits, I'll try to post more later on tonight but I might not be around.




Thanks for the info, Westwind.



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chaper 1: The Devoted
> This chapter covers new 20-level clesses (Spirit Shaman, Shugenja, and Favored Soul).  Spirit Shaman is the only new one and it looks pretty cool.  Access to a set number of spells/day and some nifty anti-spirit (fey, elemental, incorporeal undead, astral forms) powers.  No unarmed martial powers.




_Sigh._ Rehash City!   

The Miniature's Handbook is a 3.5 book. Why in the hell are they redoing the Favored Soul? It doesn't make sense. I would have much preferred if they had only done two classes and added one or two additional PrCs.



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 2: Prestige Classes
> I think they've all been covered elsewhere.  The only one that struck me as being a possible problem is the Radiant Servant of Pelor, which looks unchanged from its Dragon version.




Hmm, can we get a rundown of all the converted/new prestige classes?



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 3: Supplemental Rules
> Feat, feats, and more feats.  Two "new" types of feats: divine and wild.  Divine feats let you spend a turn attempt to do something else (there are 10 of them plus True Believer), wild feats are the same except you spend a wild shape use for a physical improvement for a short period of time.  In general, some of the feats look very nice (Augment Healing: +2 to healing spells/level, Spontaneous Healer: allows non-clerics to swap out spells for healing spells--this could break the Druid).   There are also variant rules for faith points and feats you can use faith points (sort of like action points from UA).  Epic rules are included as well at the end.




Hmm, new feats for my druid PC. Cool.



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chaper 4: Magic Items
> Somewhere between artifacts and magic items there are relics.  They seem pretty cool actually.  They have "prices" but it's not like you'll find them for sale.  You need either True Believer+ X number of HD or the sacrifice of a given level spell slot to use them.  Also included are some new non-relic staves.




The relics sound interesting. Does the book give rules for creating new custom relics for a DMs homebrewed world?



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 5: Deities
> Each core deity is described in terms of portfolio, domains, cleric training (who they take in), quests, prayers (role-playing device), temples, rites, herald, and relics.  The herald is just a very brief description ("almost always a 20th level Wizard," not a stat block).  Brief write-ups are also given for Beltar, Bralm, Celestian, Cyndor, Delleb, Geshtai, Incabulos, Istus, Iuz, Joramy, Lirr, Llerg, Mouqol, Osprem, Pholtus, Procan, Pyremius, Rao, Telchur, Tharizdun, Trithereon, Wastri, Xan Yae, and Zuoken.  Monster deities are also here.




This is the main reason I think I'll be buying this book. Anything with more details about the Deities of Greyhawk. Woohoo!

What, exactly, do you mean by brief writeups, BTW? Like the entries listed in the Player's Handbook or the entries listed in Deities and Demigods (i.e. dogma, clerics and temples).



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 6: The Divine World
> Things to do in Denver (or another plane) when you're dead.  This chapter details what dying entails, where you might go, and things you can do once you're there.  It also talks about church organizations, sects, schisms, and cults.




Denver?   

How long are the sections on church organizations, sects, schisms, and cults?



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 7: Domains and Spells
> New domains include Celerity, Cold, Community, Competition, Creation, Domination, Dream, Force, Glory, Inquisition, Liberation, MadnessMind, Mysticism, Oracle, Pact, Pestilence, Purification, Summoner, and Weather.  Some were new to me, but the majority were revisions or reprints.  Also some new spells that I haven't looked over yet.




Same old, same old. More domains. Some I'll use, others I'll ignore in favor off my own 'homebrewed' domains.



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> There are a few editing errors and the infamous page XX shows up, but it looks like a pretty crunchy book all-in-all.  If you already have the 3.0 versions you can do most of the conversions on your own, but it's worth buying if you are running 3.5 and play divine-based characters.  Maybe I missed it, but I would've liked to have seen more "everyday life and the divine" material.




Of course. How many times have you seen 'XX', so far?

Sounds like their is enough new stuff to buy this book and 'retire' Defenders of the Faith.

Cheers!

KF72


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## Fingers Boggis (May 13, 2004)

I can imagin far too  many possible ways of breaking a druid now based on some of these, might have to order the book tomorrow and roll up a new druid in preparation

ill have to second/third the request for arcanist friendly information seen as im going to be DMiing an arcane only campaign over summer an want to start planning now

Fingers


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## Speaks (May 13, 2004)

Exorcist question:  what changes did they do to this prestige class and does it still get full spell progression and all the extra turning feats.

thanks in advance


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## MerricB (May 13, 2004)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> The Miniature's Handbook is a 3.5 book. Why in the hell are they redoing the Favored Soul? It doesn't make sense. I would have much preferred if they had only done two classes and added one or two additional PrCs.




Because the Miniatures Handbook only appealed to a small audience. They're not "redoing" it, they're reprinting it. It's in the same way that feats appeared in both the FRCS and _Tome and Blood_.

Cheers!


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## Saeviomagy (May 13, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I'm a 3.5 druid. I have Natural Spell, Spontaneous Healing & Augment Healing, which means I'm about as good a healer as a cleric. I can spontaneously summon up nature's allies; I can also _wildshape_ into a dire bear or a huge fire elemental, I'm immune to poisons, I leave no tracks, and I can _alter self_ at will. Additionally, I'm a full-fledged spellcaster, the 2nd- or 3rd-best nuker in the game depending on where you rank me in relation to sorcerers & wizards, and I have several vital & unique buffs that no other full-fledged spellcaster gets. And I have 2 great saves and a d8 hit die.




No - you're the healing bitch. The ability to heal just means that you have to spend all your spells healing people, which is often a thankless job. Additionally, your healing spells are typically higher level than those of a cleric.

And your spell list is nowhere near as good nor as flexible as that of a cleric. And you're down a spell per level on a cleric.

Getting access to the healing spells is not a good thing - it just means the party will expect you to heal.

I'm a little worried about some of the feats when added to a cleric - specifically that one which lets you empower spells for turn undead attempts - this one is better by far than the sudden metamagics that everyone was up in arms against. Spontaenous domains plus the fire or sun domain means that the blaster mage is out of business.

Complete warrior included stuff for anyone who fought - there were cleric, druid and wizard friendly classes in there, along with feats that could benefit most classes.

Please, please tell me that complete divine isn't just for druids, clerics and paladins? 'cause it's sounding like that's the case.


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## dargoth3 (May 13, 2004)

Omand said:
			
		

> Hello,
> 
> Just to verify, you have listed all of the domains given in the book, yes?
> 
> ...





The Repose Domain was updated in the Players guide to Faerun


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## Trainz (May 13, 2004)

Thanks for all the answers !

Another question... is there a 20 level spontaneous divine caster ?


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## kilamanjaro (May 13, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> That part led me me to double check my OA and Rokugan books. The shugenja in both books use Charisma as their primary stat, it is not linked to different stats. Did I miss anything?



The Rokugan book has a side bar with an optional rule to use different stats for different elements.  Not a very balanced option, IMHO.


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## Thanee (May 13, 2004)

Hmm... spontaneously healing exalted druids... 
One question - how many exalted feats are in there?

But all in all that sounds pretty nice. The close-up on the religions will hopefully add some useful insight. Those are not really covered well enough elsewhere. 

Bye
Thanee


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## MerricB (May 13, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Thanks for all the answers !
> 
> Another question... is there a 20 level spontaneous divine caster ?




Yes. That's the Favoured Soul, which first appeared in the Miniatures Handbook. 

(Oh, and the Spirit Shaman appears to do a similar job for the Druidic spells).

Cheers!


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## Olive (May 13, 2004)

Knightfall1972 said:
			
		

> What, exactly, do you mean by brief writeups, BTW? Like the entries listed in the Player's Handbook or the entries listed in Deities and Demigods (i.e. dogma, clerics and temples).




From whats been said in other threads they're longer than either of those, and there are examples of the style in the XPH.


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## Trainz (May 13, 2004)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Yes. That's the Favoured Soul, which first appeared in the Miniatures Handbook.
> 
> (Oh, and the Spirit Shaman appears to do a similar job for the Druidic spells).
> 
> Cheers!



Thanks for the precision Merric. Greatly appreciated. So, with the OP's info in mind...



> Favored Soul looks like the same class from the Miniatures Handbook (which I don't own, so I might miss something here). All good saves, mid-level BAB. *Charisma is used to cast the spell (i.e. spells known), Wisdom sets the spell's DC*. It also gains energy resistance over time (new types at levels 5,10,15), wings (level 17) and DR (10/silver or cold iron, depending on alignment) at level 20.



...it needs TWO stats (Wis and Cha) to be on par with all other casters, which only need one stat to be fully efficient in their respective spell field. 

How do they justify this ? I guess they do with respect to the other abilities they gain (all around good saves, energy resistance, wings, DR...), but they gain most of these at levels 17 and up. And when the OP says they have all good saves, does he mean +9 at 20th level, or +12 at 20th level.

I'm not convinced the two stats thing is that great.

Unless their spell selection is much greater than the spontaneous cleric alternate class in the Unearthed Arcana. If that is the case, then this WOULD indeed be one powerful class.

Anyone with the info cares to enlighten me ? Thanks in advance for any light shed on the subject.


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## MerricB (May 13, 2004)

I like the Favoured Soul.

"Good Saves" means +12 at 20th level, rather than +6 at 20th level. (There's no in-between saving throw categories in a D&D product... yet.

They get bonuses throughout their levels. The first Energy Resistance kicks in at 5th level. They also get Weapon Focus (lvl3) and Weapon Specialisation (lvl12) in their deity's favoured weapon. 

The split Wis/Cha spellcasting means that they're not quite as offensively potent as a pure cleric in their spellcasting, but make great summoners and buffers.

Cheers!


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 13, 2004)

> How do they justify this ? I guess they do with respect to the other abilities they gain (all around good saves, energy resistance, wings, DR...), but they gain most of these at levels 17 and up. And when the OP says they have all good saves, does he mean +9 at 20th level, or +12 at 20th level.



They have +12 to all saves at level 20 (no WotC made D&D base classes have +9 saves at level 20).



> Unless their spell selection is much greater than the spontaneous cleric alternate class in the Unearthed Arcana. If that is the case, then this WOULD indeed be one powerful class.



Favored Souls are a solid class compared to the majority of other base classes. Remember that Unearthed Arcana is a book of optional rules and most of the stuff they are going to print will probably be incompatable with a lot of it. 

Favored Soul spellcasting is identical to a Sorcerer's except the FS has 2 more spells known per level to a max of 6 spells known per spell level. At least the Mini's HB one is like that.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 13, 2004)

MerricB said:
			
		

> They get bonuses throughout their levels. The first Energy Resistance kicks in at 5th level. They also get Weapon Focus (lvl1) and Weapon Specialisation (I forget the level... 8th?) in their deity's favoured weapon.




Mini's HB has it as Weapon Focus at 3rd level and Weapon Specilization at 12th level (in deities favored weapon).

The split Wis/Cha is a definate limiter on the class, but it's probably needed. Favored Soul gains a lot of abilities that almost no other base class really gets (innate energy resistance and wings), d8 HD, medium BAB, 3 good saves, free focus and specilization, DR and full 9th level spontaneous casting. The only things that make this class reasonable is the split Wis/Cha for casting and the inability to quicken spells.


----------



## Omand (May 13, 2004)

*Re: Domains*



			
				dargoth3 said:
			
		

> The Repose Domain was updated in the Players guide to Faerun




Thanks for that, I don't play in Forgotten Realms, so I had not picked up the PGTF.  I suppose it would be too much to ask for the revised domain to appear in a core product.   

Of well, I am still interested in CD.  In fact, it looks like a pretty good book for my uses.  I won't likely use the core classes or most of the prestige classes, but the rest looks good.

Cheers


----------



## MerricB (May 13, 2004)

Fiendish Dire Weasel said:
			
		

> Mini's HB has it as Weapon Focus at 3rd level and Weapon Specilization at 12th level (in deities favored weapon).




Ah, thanks - I'm going from memory of the MHb version.



> The split Wis/Cha is a definate limiter on the class, but it's probably needed. Favored Soul gains a lot of abilities that almost no other base class really gets (innate energy resistance and wings), d8 HD, medium BAB, 3 good saves, free focus and specilization, DR and full 9th level spontaneous casting. The only things that make this class reasonable is the split Wis/Cha for casting and the inability to quicken spells.




Oh, and a big restriction on the spells it knows. It does hurt... the cleric can normally fix anything given a day, the Favoured Soul misses that badly.

Cheers!


----------



## Trainz (May 13, 2004)

MerricB said:
			
		

> I like the Favoured Soul.
> 
> "Good Saves" means +12 at 20th level, rather than +6 at 20th level. (There's no in-between saving throw categories in a D&D product... yet.



I know. I was fearing they would have borrowed from another WotC game, Star Wars, where they do have +9 progressions, in order to nerf the saves a bit.



> They get bonuses throughout their levels. The first Energy Resistance kicks in at 5th level. They also get Weapon Focus (lvl3) and Weapon Specialisation (lvl12) in their deity's favoured weapon.
> 
> The split Wis/Cha spellcasting means that they're not quite as offensively potent as a pure cleric in their spellcasting, but make great summoners and buffers.



Well, it's not like they're going to be able to put a high stat in Strength anyways (what with the Cha and Wis requirements, and it's nice to have a 12 in Dex and some Con...), so the weapon specialization is a nice touch. Coupled with the feat from Complete Warrior that let's you use your Wis for attack bonus instead of Str, it's interesting.

With what I've heard so far, I'm very hyped about that class. We've been using the spontaneous divine from UA, and this looks like a much better option.

And the feats also look nice... 

It's funny, but IMCs, no-one ever pays attention to the spells offered in those books (CW, BoED, and now CD). I wonder if my group is the only one behaving like that.

I called my FLGS today, asking if it was in. The girl that answered came back to the phone 3 times, making me wait for 5 minutes overall. Her answer after all that:"I don't know...". I guess I'll call back tomorrow, hoping that the person that will answer me will own a brain.


----------



## Saeviomagy (May 13, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> It's funny, but IMCs, no-one ever pays attention to the spells offered in those books (CW, BoED, and now CD). I wonder if my group is the only one behaving like that.



Well the spells in CW are pretty crap, and people may be dismissing BoED spells on the assumption that they have to be exalted to use them (which isn't true)


----------



## ~Joseph~ (May 13, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Hi.
> 
> I'm a 3.5 druid. I have Natural Spell, Spontaneous Healing & Augment Healing, which means I'm about as good a healer as a cleric. I can spontaneously summon up nature's allies; I can also _wildshape_ into a dire bear or a huge fire elemental, I'm immune to poisons, I leave no tracks, and I can _alter self_ at will. Additionally, I'm a full-fledged spellcaster, the 2nd- or 3rd-best nuker in the game depending on where you rank me in relation to sorcerers & wizards, and I have several vital & unique buffs that no other full-fledged spellcaster gets. And I have 2 great saves and a d8 hit die.
> 
> I am your muthua-fXXXin' daddy.




I wouldn't go that far, I mean the druid spell list is laking in "let's kill lots of people" spells like the Wizard/Sorcerer list, and to have all those feats you're also giving up allot of feats that could really pimp out your wild shape ability.  I still think the cleric has the upper hand in spells and healing b/c he gets it for free.


----------



## Nightfall (May 13, 2004)

IMHO and IMC, You're not a true 3.5 druid until you've taken some Primal and Totem feats.  Same with a sorcerer, only for Scion feats.


----------



## ForceUser (May 13, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> IMHO and IMC, You're not a true 3.5 druid until you've taken some Primal and Totem feats.  Same with a sorcerer, only for Scion feats.



Imagine a world, if you will, full of many gamers who don't play Scarred Lands.


----------



## Nightfall (May 13, 2004)

Force,

I try...but then I get something akin to Iceburn headache coupled with Kryptonite poisoning. It's not pretty.


----------



## Fiendish Dire Weasel (May 13, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> They still cast holy sword.  In fact, they have the Paladin list (minus Law spells) plus a few spells, like heroism and protection from law.  They can remove fatigue, smite evil, break enchantment, get divine grace, and are resistant to compulsion and charm effects.  There are also rules for ex-Paladins, which look like the Blackguard rules.




Was just thinking about this. Specificly having Heroism as a spell on thier list and immunity to charm and compulsions. Heroism is a compulsion, so does that mean a Holy Liberator has to take a standard action to drop his immunity as a standard action one round (in the same way you can drop spell resistance) then cast the spell on himself in the next? When you drop immunity/SR, doesn't it only last for a round, so a HL would have to somehow quicken his Heroism to be able to cast it on himself?


----------



## Celtavian (May 13, 2004)

*re*

Can the divine classes such as Paladin, Cleric, and Druid use Relics without the True Believer feat?


----------



## Kyamsil (May 13, 2004)

Thanks for all the info   Can't wait to have this one on my hands.



> The Sacred Fist is actually readable (go page layout)! It does not have its own spell progression, 8 of the 10 levels add to pre-existing caster levels. Monk abilities, like unarmed damage dice, AC bonus, and movement are also progresssed. You pretty much need to be a Cleric/Monk to meet the prereqs for this class and you'll advance elements of both classes. At 10th level it gets Inner Armor, which adds +4 to AC and saves 1/day for a number of rounds equal to Wisdom modifier. Sacred Flame is usable 1-2/day and adds fire damage to your unarmed strike. Damage equals class level + Wis mod.




What are the prerequisites for the revised Sacred Fist?You say that you must be cleric/monk to meet the prerequisites. In 3.0 it was "able to cast divine spells" (no specific class or even a neccesary spell level), BAB+4, Alertness, Combat Reflexes and Imp. Unarmed Strike. What has changed to make the class unavailable unless you get cleric levels? This worries me because I'm planning on adding Sacred Fist levels to my OA monk character, and in OA there is no cleric class 

I like to know that they changed the class so levels in the PrC count as monk levels for the usual monk abilities, they get +1 spellcasting level 8 out of 10 instead of its own spell list (yay!) It seems that they modified Sacred Flame so it adds to unarmed damage instead of replacing it (good!) Inner Armor looks almost the same (how many times per day?In 3.0 you could do it a number of times daily equal to your class level)

What worries me more is what has happened to the coolest abilities of the class?Namely: free domain, Uncanny Dodge, Blindsight and No Shadow Blows????

Also, does it keep the good BAB progression?

Thanks in advance


----------



## johnsemlak (May 13, 2004)

Regarding the favored Soul, is the CD version exactly the same as that in the Minis Handbook?


----------



## MerricB (May 13, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Regarding the favored Soul, is the CD version exactly the same as that in the Minis Handbook?




I really, really, really hope it is. 

Cheers!


----------



## Westwind (May 13, 2004)

Alright, sorry about the gap in answers.  I'll try to get to everyone.



> Just to verify, you have listed all of the domains given in the book, yes?




Yup, a nice even 20.



> Anything an Arcanist can take?



The Geomancer requires you to be able to cast 2nd level arcane and divine spells.

Rainbow Servant is an arcane class.  You basically worship couatl and gain access to Cleric domains over time.  At 10th level (which won't happen before 15th character level and 11th level caster) you can add Cleric spells to your arcane list(!)

Void Disciple uses either arcane or divine spells as its prereq.

The Arcane Disciple feat allows you to add the spells from a domain to your arcane spell list.  That seems pretty powerful to me.  You need a high enough Wisdom to cast them and use Wisdom to determine DC.



> Do Sacred Excorcist and Divine Oracle still allow arcane casters into them and do they still advance arcane caster level for all 10 levels?
> 
> Do Pious Templar and Holy Liberator still both have full 10 level BAB progression and do they still both have good Will and Fort. saves?




Yes and yes to the spellcasting.

Yes to BAB.

Yes to Pious Templar's saves.

No to Holy Liberator's saves--they only get good Fort.



> Quick question; does Sacred Fist still get the No Shadow Blows ability (the only ability that makes this class worthwhile, IMO) and, if so, does it work the same as in 3.0?




No.  It looks like Sacred Flames (described earlier) replaces it.



> The relics sound interesting. Does the book give rules for creating new custom relics for a DMs homebrewed world?




It's very very rules thin.  It struck me that there's a lot of room for other settings to publish their own relics in the near future.  There's a feat included that you need in addition to the appropriate creation feat and the discount formula of 400 x spell slot level x minimum cleric level.



> What, exactly, do you mean by brief writeups, BTW? Like the entries listed in the Player's Handbook or the entries listed in Deities and Demigods (i.e. dogma, clerics and temples).




For the lesser deities it's even briefer.  Here's an example:

*Lirr*
Lesser Goddess (Chaotic Good)
Lirr usually appears as a teenage girl carrying a picturebook.  Her temples are small, but her clerics are influential patrons for artists and bards, commissioning new art, poetry, and song.
Portfolio: Poetry, art.
Domains: Chaos, Good, Knowledge, Magic, Travel.



> Denver?




Did no one get the movie reference?  I've got to get out of the local theater.



> Please, please tell me that complete divine isn't just for druids, clerics and paladins? 'cause it's sounding like that's the case.




No, but that's clearly the focus.  There's the abovementioned arcane stuff and prestige classes like Pious Templar that non-casters can take. 



> Another question... is there a 20 level spontaneous divine caster ?




Spirit Shaman and Favored Soul.



> One question - how many exalted feats are in there?




First off, I've had a huge crush on Nastassja Kinski for about 10-12 years now--I love your avatar.  But, the answer to the question is none.


----------



## Felon (May 13, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> ...it needs TWO stats (Wis and Cha) to be on par with all other casters, which only need one stat to be fully efficient in their respective spell field. How do they justify this ? I guess they do with respect to the other abilities they gain (all around good saves, energy resistance, wings, DR...), but they gain most of these at levels 17 and up. And when the OP says they have all good saves, does he mean +9 at 20th level, or +12 at 20th level. I'm not convinced the two stats thing is that great.




How exactly is this a big deal? Lots of characters need multiple decent stats. Try playing a barbarian or fighter some time.


----------



## Felon (May 13, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Hi. I'm a 3.5 druid. I have Natural Spell, Spontaneous Healing & Augment Healing, which means I'm about as good a healer as a cleric. I can spontaneously summon up nature's allies; I can also _wildshape_ into a dire bear or a huge fire elemental, I'm immune to poisons, I leave no tracks, and I can _alter self_ at will. Additionally, I'm a full-fledged spellcaster, the 2nd- or 3rd-best nuker in the game depending on where you rank me in relation to sorcerers & wizards, and I have several vital & unique buffs that no other full-fledged spellcaster gets. And I have 2 great saves and a d8 hit die. I am your muthua-fXXXin' daddy.




You forgot to mention the completely expendable attack pet and access to the most annoying "snare" spells in the game, _entangle_ and _plant growth_.


----------



## hong (May 13, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> First off, I've had a huge crush on Nastassja Kinski for about 10-12 years now--I love your avatar.  But, the answer to the question is none.





*THANEE JUST GOT OUTED!!! HAW HAW!!1!*


----------



## Westwind (May 13, 2004)

Hey, Teutonic women rock--check my location     


Forgot to post the Sacred Fist's prereqs:

BAB +4
Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks
Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist
Able to cast 1st-level divine spells

It does get good BAB



> Can the divine classes such as Paladin, Cleric, and Druid use Relics without the True Believer feat?




The answer to this is an unsatisfying "kinda."  (Note: I mean unsatisfying because it's a weak answer, not because of some problem with relics).  If you don't have the True Believer feat you need to give up a divine spell slot to use a relic, so Clerics and Druids can use them without a problem assuming they have a high enough slot.  There are 2 relics that require the sacrifice of a 4th level slot (so Paladins and Rangers could use them in theory), everything else ranges from 5-8.  However, there is no reason that you couldn't design a relic that eats a lower level slot so any divine caster could use it.


----------



## Psion (May 13, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Imagine a world, if you will, full of many gamers who don't play Scarred Lands.




Who said anything about _playing_ Scarred Lands?

Plunder, my friend! Plunder!


----------



## MerricB (May 13, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Who said anything about _playing_ Scarred Lands?
> 
> Plunder, my freind! Plunder!




I _knew_ there was a reason they were Scarred...

It's like a sign out in the wilderness: "Psion was here!"



Cheers!


----------



## RigaMortus (May 13, 2004)

What I was hoping for was some "rules" or guidelines on mixing gods from different pantheons.  In the campaign I play in, we do this a lot.  We have the standard Greyhawk gods, we use (rarely) the FR gods, we use nameless gods (from the Freeport setting if anyone is curious), we use Nordic gods (Thor and Odin and such) and we even use the Rokugan pantheon, which worships mostly spirits over gods.

It would be nice to have some guidelines of what happens when a devoute Thor worshipper runs into a god from Greyhawk.  How would one react?  Does the god hold sway over them?  What happens when a god with two of the same portfolio shows up?


----------



## Westwind (May 13, 2004)

Most of the stuff in here is for PCs and pantheon questions generally fall to the DM.  The best I could find is a reference early in the book to "aberrant" gods--gods whose worship isn't kosher with the clerics of the dominant pantheon.  They have suggestions for serving a specific deity, a specific pantheon, an abstract principle, and nature.  I suppose you could work out some sort of meshing of pantheon-specific clerics.


----------



## Ilmyryn (May 13, 2004)

johnsemlak said:
			
		

> Regarding the favored Soul, is the CD version exactly the same as that in the Minis Handbook?




I would like to see them revise the known spell progression. Did anyone else notice it waas all wonky? after about 6th or 8th level you only learn new spells every other level. This is rather lame for a player to go 2 levels without learning any new spells, and i don't see it giving any particular balance to the class.

I think it would be much better if it followed the sorcerer progression where at even levels you learn new spells of the new level youc an cast, and at the odd levels you learn spells in all your non maxed levels you know.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 13, 2004)

How much of the book do the PrCs take up? I'm hoping there won't be a repeat of the Comple Warrior debacle...


----------



## Westwind (May 13, 2004)

> How much of the book do the PrCs take up? I'm hoping there won't be a repeat of the Comple Warrior debacle...




191 pages total, prestige classes run from page 19 to 76.  There are a lot, but there is a decent balance with feats and spells.

Spell progression for the Favored Soul (again, don't have the MiniH) looks like what has been described in this thread.  Spells known for levels 12-13, etc. is unchanged.  I'm not a huge fan of the Favored Soul, but I think it's worth noting that with all the divine feats in this book, turning undead means a lot more than it once did so if you pick Favored Soul over Cleric you miss out on a lot of options.


----------



## Psion (May 13, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> How much of the book do the PrCs take up? I'm hoping there won't be a repeat of the Comple Warrior debacle...




I dig prestige classes and find them to be a great tool for the game when done properly. I was relatively pleased with the ones in CW.

The "CW debacle", as I define it, was the new core classes and the nerfing of feats.


----------



## Li Shenron (May 13, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> The "CW debacle", as I define it, was the new core classes and the nerfing of feats.




I agree that CW core classes were a debacle, but also I didn't like to see all the 5-levels PrCls as well. In fact I was mostly worried to see the same done in CD.

Westwind, could you write down the PrCl list with the number of levels each?

I know that it may not mean much, but IMXP the PrCls which are not developed over 10 levels are usually very poor...


----------



## Westwind (May 13, 2004)

Here are the prestige classes.  I've included spell casting levels as well so (5/10) would mean it's a 10 level prestige class that adds 5 caster levels.  0/5 is a 5 level prestige class with no spell casting.

Black Flame Zealot (5/10)
Blighter (10/10--unique list)
Church Inquisitor (10/10)
Consecrated Harrier (10/10--unique list)
Contemplative (10/10)
Divine Crusader (10/10--unique list)
Divine Oracle (10/10)
Entropomancer (5/10)
Evangelist (0/5)
Geomancer (10/10)
Holy Liberator (10/10--unique list)
Hospitaler (7/10)
Pious Templar (10/10--unique list)
Radiant Servant of Pelor (10/10)
Rainbow Servant (6/10)
Sacred Exorcist (10/10)
Sacred Fist (8/10)
Seeker of the Misty Isle (8/10)
Shining Blade of Heironeous (5/10)
Stormlord (10/10)
Temple Raider of Olidammara (10/10--unique list)
Ur-Priest (10/10--unique list)
Void Disciple (8/13)
Warpriest (5/10)

With the exception of the Ur-Priest and the Blighter (who get 9th level spells in 10 levels, but give up prior spellcasting ability) and the Divine Champion (who gets access to the spells of a single domain only) reference to unique lists indicates a slow spell progression and access to spellcasting at all 10 levels requires a high ability score.


----------



## The_Baldman (May 13, 2004)

Bill Muench said:
			
		

> If you could post any info on the Contemplative, Divine Oracle, and Seeker of the Misty Isle (?) PrCs, I'd really appreciate it. Mostly any notable changes for the first two (can arcane casters still become Oracles?) and just the general gist of the latter. Thanks!




or ya know Bill we have a shiney new copy of that book for the charity raffle next week at MVC


----------



## Psiblade (May 13, 2004)

What are the Divine Crusader and Stormlord like?  

-Psiblade


----------



## Bill Muench (May 13, 2004)

wavester said:
			
		

> or ya know Bill we have a shiney new copy of that book for the charity raffle next week at MVC



 Believe me, if I can't find a copy beforehand, I'll be entering the raffle. 

Gotta get familiar with all the new spells we'll be deluged with at Origins, afterall.


----------



## Ferret (May 13, 2004)

By core [deities] what do you mean?


----------



## Nightfall (May 13, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Who said anything about _playing_ Scarred Lands?
> 
> Plunder, my friend! Plunder!



Thanks a lot Psion.  Anyway Plunder is fine. But complete usage is better (IMHO.)


----------



## Westwind (May 13, 2004)

> By core [deities] what do you mean?



Deities from the Greyhawk (i.e. default) setting and the traditional deities of the humanoid races, dating back to prior editions.



> What are the Divine Crusader and Stormlord like?




It's worth noting that the Storm Lord is different than the class that appeared on Faiths and Pantheons.  They do get electrical resistance, but at a lower rate (until level 9, at which point the new version is immune).  They are also capable of granting a bonus to javelins they throw, which didn't exist before.  Talos is still listed as the patron deity.

The Divine Crusader gets a mid level BAB and two good saves.  They slowly build resistances to acid and electricity, get Weapon Specialization, darkvision and eventually become outsiders.  They also get access to a single domain and can cast spells from that domain only.  Without a spellcasting prereq, this class looks like a nice slightly less martial version of the Pious Templar.


----------



## Kwyn (May 13, 2004)

Thank you for sharing your time with us today Westwind.

Sacred Exorcist  
Do they still get Consecrate as a special ability and is it still at level 5?  
Do they still get extra turning feats as bonuses (twice)

PrC's General - Does every PrC and Core class have a sample character?  I know that made some people crazy in Complete Warrior


----------



## Navar (May 13, 2004)

Does the Sacred Fist gain levels in Flurry and AC or just Damage and Movement?


----------



## AdvntrGuy (May 13, 2004)

> Void Disciple (8/13)




Is this a typo, or a new 13 level PrC?


----------



## Knight Otu (May 13, 2004)

AdvntrGuy said:
			
		

> Is this a typo, or a new 13 level PrC?



Neither, it is a reprint/revision of an old 13 level PrC. Void Disciple was a PrC in Oriental Adventures. Not having CD yet, I cannot say how much it changed.


----------



## AdvntrGuy (May 13, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Neither, it is a reprint/revision of an old 13 level PrC. Void Disciple was a PrC in Oriental Adventures. Not having CD yet, I cannot say how much it changed.




Ah.  Well, new to me.  I'm not an OA guy.


----------



## smileybob1 (May 13, 2004)

i was wondering if anyone could tell me what the Holy Liberator gets at 1st level.  also, do they still have a d10 and 2+int for skill points

thanks for any help


----------



## Belzakan (May 13, 2004)

I would like to know the requirements of the holy liberator, and his hit die, bab, skill points, and everything!!!!! At least at the first level... Including spell list. Thanks!!!


----------



## Shard O'Glase (May 14, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> The "CW debacle", as I define it, was the new core classes and the nerfing of feats.




what nerfing of feats?  I don't own CW since my system is usually to wait for all the class books to some out befor I get any of them.  And I haven't heard of any nerfing of feats since the CW hasn't neen a big interest of mine.


----------



## ForceUser (May 14, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> what nerfing of feats?  I don't own CW since my system is usually to wait for all the class books to some out befor I get any of them.  And I haven't heard of any nerfing of feats since the CW hasn't neen a big interest of mine.



Several cool monk feats from OA are in CW, and reduced in power. For instance, Flying Kick is in, but instead of double damage it does an extra 1d12. Earth's Embrace, likewise, does +1d12 now instead of what it did before.


----------



## Omand (May 14, 2004)

*Re: Domains*

Westwind,

Thanks for the updates and the news on the 20 included domains.

Cheers


----------



## Felon (May 14, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> Several cool monk feats from OA are in CW, and reduced in power. For instance, Flying Kick is in, but instead of double damage it does an extra 1d12. Earth's Embrace, likewise, does +1d12 now instead of what it did before.




Oh, OK. _Rreasonable_ nerfing then (although I woud've gone with a more reliable and consistent 2d6 instead of 1d12--wonder why they did that?).


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

Got the book a few hours ago .. about the holy liberators

must be Choatic Good
BAB: +5
Skill Diplomacy (5ranks), Sense motive (5 ranks)
Feat: Iron will

has good Bab progression and just good will saves.

1- Aura of Good, detect evil, smite evil/1 day
2 - remove fatigue
3 - aura of resolve (lallies in 10' get +4 saves vs compulsion and charms, liberator gains immunity to them)
4 - Break enchantment 1/day, divine grace
5 - smite evil 2/day
6- celestial companion
7 -
8 - break enchanement 2/day
9 -
10 - smite evil 3 times a day.

Cool feats
Transdimensional Spell - metamagic - use a slot one level higher and you can - ignore the miss chance for spell attacking incorporeal creatures, etherial and plane of shadow.  Col thing is you can blast people creatuers in extradimensional spaces  so you can nuke those hiding in a rope trick

Practiced Spell Caster - general - benifits those you are not casting spell at their full hit dice.  bascially you get a +4 level to determine the effect of a spell but you do not get more spells as level increase.  Also can't go above your hitdice for spell levels.  So a fitr3/Cleric5 with this feat can cast his cleric spells at 8th lvl effects .. if  he levels to ftr4/clr5 he cast at 9th level effects.  Basically no extra spells but cast yous at greater effect .. much like a bead of karma.  Need four ranks of spellcraft for the feat.

Speaks


----------



## MerricB (May 14, 2004)

Speaks said:
			
		

> Practiced Spell Caster - general - benifits those you are not casting spell at their full hit dice.  bascially you get a +4 level to determine the effect of a spell but you do not get more spells as level increase.  Also can't go above your hitdice for spell levels.  So a fitr3/Cleric5 with this feat can cast his cleric spells at 8th lvl effects .. if  he levels to ftr4/clr5 he cast at 9th level effects.




Wow... that is great! I've a couple of players who are going to love that feat! 

Cheers!


----------



## Hertay (May 14, 2004)

*Radiante Serve of Pelor*

Please, could someone tell me What´s the Radiante Server of Pelor abilities???
thanks


----------



## Thanee (May 14, 2004)

Does that spontaneous cure feat (which allows druids to spontaneously cast cure spells like clerics) have any feat requirements? Or any harsh requirements at all?

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 14, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> First off, I've had a huge crush on Nastassja Kinski for about 10-12 years now--I love your avatar.




Nastassja Kinski!? 

(Yes, I know who that is... but that's not her on the pic, sorry! )



> But, the answer to the question is none.




That's not many... 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## TracerBullet42 (May 14, 2004)

Does this mean that this book is available now?  When does it hit the shelves?


----------



## Thanee (May 14, 2004)

hong said:
			
		

> *HAW HAW!!1!*




Not quite. 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Melkantur (May 14, 2004)

*liberated from good saves*



			
				Speaks said:
			
		

> Got the book a few hours ago .. a
> 
> has good Bab progression and just good will saves.
> 
> ...


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (May 14, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> Oh, OK. _Rreasonable_ nerfing then (although I woud've gone with a more reliable and consistent 2d6 instead of 1d12--wonder why they did that?).



 Just gotta use the d12 SOMEWHERE other than the few places it is.


----------



## Psion (May 14, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> Oh, OK. _Rreasonable_ nerfing then




Do you consider Power Critical "reasonable nerfing"?


----------



## Michael Tree (May 14, 2004)

Speaks said:
			
		

> Practiced Spell Caster - general - benifits those you are not casting spell at their full hit dice.  bascially you get a +4 level to determine the effect of a spell but you do not get more spells as level increase.  Also can't go above your hitdice for spell levels.  So a fitr3/Cleric5 with this feat can cast his cleric spells at 8th lvl effects .. if  he levels to ftr4/clr5 he cast at 9th level effects.  Basically no extra spells but cast yous at greater effect .. much like a bead of karma.  Need four ranks of spellcraft for the feat.



Shiny!    Does that feat work with arcane spellcasting too, or just divine?  Does the level increase also improve SR penetration and resistance to dispelling, or just level-based spell effects?


----------



## MDSnowman (May 14, 2004)

I know... that feat is the dream come true of multi-classed characters everywhere.


----------



## Legildur (May 14, 2004)

Firstly, thanks Westwind (and others) for the teasers.

This thread was enough to make me ring my local (Australian) gaming shop to check on their anticipated delivery date.  I fully expected the response to be 'not sure, could be on the ship as we speak'.  Instead, I got 'unpacking it right now' (sounded like I interrupted him pulling apart the boxes).

Now just gotta convince the wife that we need to grab our takeaway meal at the 'correct' shopping centre tonight before I head to my live game later on


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

about the holy liberator .. good fort not will. sorry for the bogus info.

Anger of the noon day sun - druid 6 .. effects creature within a 10R around you.Reflex save or be blinded for 1min/lvl.  Undead and ooze things take 1d6per 2 levels (caps at 10 dice)

Radiant Servants .. seems very close to Dragon magazine version a while back.  Full spell progression with good FORT and WILL saves.  clerical BAB.   few requirements + must have Sun domain and extra turning feat.  Some of powers apply meta-magic to healing spells cast out of the healing domain so to get the best benefit would help to have healing domain.  Can greater turn equal to 3+ cha modifier and gets positive energy burst at 8th level.


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> Shiny!    Does that feat work with arcane spellcasting too, or just divine?  Does the level increase also improve SR penetration and resistance to dispelling, or just level-based spell effects?




It seems to work with divine or arcane and does help overcome spell resistance and dispelling.  I would also guess a paladin could get take this and cast his spells with a higher effective level.


----------



## MerricB (May 14, 2004)

Legildur said:
			
		

> Firstly, thanks Westwind (and others) for the teasers.
> 
> This thread was enough to make me ring my local (Australian) gaming shop to check on their anticipated delivery date.  I fully expected the response to be 'not sure, could be on the ship as we speak'.  Instead, I got 'unpacking it right now' (sounded like I interrupted him pulling apart the boxes).
> 
> Now just gotta convince the wife that we need to grab our takeaway meal at the 'correct' shopping centre tonight before I head to my live game later on




Arrrggghhhhhhh!!!!

I hope my FLGS Ballarat gets some in soon! 

Cheers!


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Does that spontaneous cure feat (which allows druids to spontaneously cast cure spells like clerics) have any feat requirements? Or any harsh requirements at all?
> 
> Bye
> Thanee




they call the feat Spontaneous Healer (general) .. benefit: you can use your spell casting ability to spontaneously cast cure spells (from your class list) just as a cleric can.  You may use this ability a total number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier.
requirements are know- relgiion - 4 ranks, non evil and can cast cure spells

Spontaneous wounder works the same but be non-good and can cast inflict wounds

Spontaneous Summoner (wis-13, Knowledge nature -4ranks, and nuetral alignment and can cast summon nature ally spells.  

The summoner seems like a big waste .. could help maybe a ranger bit but I am sure someone can figure out the power game usage of the summoner.

one other cool feat - Divine Spell Power (divine feat) - expend a turn attempt as a free action and the next spell you cast before your turn you may increase or decrease the caster level depending on what you roll on the turn table.  (you get all your mdofiers with an additional bonus of +3).  Does not work for arcane spells.


----------



## Ao the Overkitty (May 14, 2004)

I'd be interested to hear more about the Divine Crusader, if you've got the time.

Prereqs and what you get would be nice, please.

thanks.


----------



## exempt (May 14, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> The Shugenja looks pretty similar to the OA version without the OA nuance.  There are orders/families your character can belong to but in terms of mechanics I can't see an immediate difference (Elemental Focus is only +1, but that's in line with the 3.5 changes).




But what spells does a Shugenja cast in this book (OA or vanilla)?


----------



## Felon (May 14, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> Do you consider Power Critical "reasonable nerfing"?




We're definitely getting a bit off-topic, but yes I do indeed consider it reasonable. The old "big nuke attack" version was unwieldy to say the least. I used to be able to nail an opponent for 200 or so points of damage with a swing once a day with that feat (and that was without taking a level of sorcerer so I could make it a sure thing with a _true strike_ as I've seen other players do). Pretty impressive output, as it single-handedly allowed me to tear apart foes designed to challenge the entire group. Of course, then my wad was shot, but  other warriors started to get in on the act and milk the same damage machine and suddenly everybody was packing a big nuke attack. Made things heck for the DM trying to design encounters with BBEG's that weren't immune to crits (which in turn started to get rough for us players). Eventually, Power Critical was declared off-limits and the party was over. Now, I can still get that kind of damage mileage out of it, just not rolled up into one attack. I've seen a couple of folks besides myself take the new version and be quite satisfied with the results, but not _everybody's_ taking it. Good nerf.


----------



## Milkman Dan (May 14, 2004)

Omand said:
			
		

> Thanks for that, I don't play in Forgotten Realms, so I had not picked up the PGTF.  I suppose it would be too much to ask for the revised domain to appear in a core product.
> 
> Cheers




The Repose domain's granted power is still death touch, as per the Death domain power.  The 1st level domain spell, _deathwatch_, was swapped with _hide from undead_.  Otherwise the domain is the same.

You mentioned the Artifice domain earlier. AFAIK, it was not updated in the 3.5 update booklet for Deities and Demigods.


----------



## Clumsy Bob (May 14, 2004)

Has the sacred exorcist changed much from the DotF version?

Bob


----------



## Kyamsil (May 14, 2004)

> Several cool monk feats from OA are in CW, and reduced in power. For instance, Flying Kick is in, but instead of double damage it does an extra 1d12. Earth's Embrace, likewise, does +1d12 now instead of what it did before.




I think that the worse nerfing of feats has been Fists of Iron  Yes, increased damage but now instead of its own uses per day you have to spend stunning attacks (and it counts against the limit of one stun attempt per round)  Our group has just ignored the updated version and we keep using the one in OA.


----------



## Thanee (May 14, 2004)

Speaks said:
			
		

> they call the feat Spontaneous Healer (general) .. benefit: you can use your spell casting ability to spontaneously cast cure spells (from your class list) just as a cleric can.  You may use this ability a total number of times per day equal to your wisdom modifier.
> requirements are know- relgiion - 4 ranks, non evil and can cast cure spells




Ah, so it's a bit limited still... but nice enough for a druid. 



> The summoner seems like a big waste .. could help maybe a ranger bit but I am sure someone can figure out the power game usage of the summoner.




*LOL*

Yeah... if it was summon monster also, but noone besides druids can use summon nature's ally anyways, since those spells are only really effective at the highest possible level, which rangers simply do not have at any time.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Li Shenron (May 14, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah... if it was summon monster also, but noone besides druids can use summon nature's ally anyways, since those spells are only really effective at the highest possible level, which rangers simply do not have at any time.




I wonder if it could be applied to domain spells. Not that it would be much of an advantage, you would prepar the other domain spell as default and could drop it for a SM, but not the regular spells.


----------



## Li Shenron (May 14, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> I wonder if it could be applied to domain spells. Not that it would be much of an advantage, you would prepar the other domain spell as default and could drop it for a SM, but not the regular spells.




edit: also it could be geared towards the Spirit Shaman if he has SM spells but doesn't have that spontaneous casting


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

Clumsy Bob said:
			
		

> Has the sacred exorcist changed much from the DotF version?
> 
> Bob




Yes the exorcist did change.
1) No more extra turning attempts
2) No exorcism domain but the gratned power is still given to the exorcist at first level.
3) At 8th level they can do holy aura once a day.

I believe the rest of the stuff stayed the same.

Speaks


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

Ao the Overkitty said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to hear more about the Divine Crusader, if you've got the time.
> 
> Prereqs and what you get would be nice, please.
> 
> thanks.




Divine Crusader
requirements
BAB: +7, alignment same as your chosen diety, knowledge rel 2 ranks, and weapon focus with diety choosen weapon.

The class gets medium BAB adjustments and good saves to fort and will
1 - aura (like a cleric)
3 - Resist Electrcity 5pts
5 - weapon specialization
6 - resist acid 5 pts
7 - darkvision
9 - resist electric and acid 10pts
10 - Perfect self (like native outsider)

The spells are limited pick one gods domains and if you have the charisma you can cast each spell up to 3 times a day except for the highest level.  The spell effects are charisma based.

Speaks


----------



## smileybob1 (May 14, 2004)

for the Holy Liberator does anyone know what kinda spell progression it gets (if any), and if there are spells do they just use the paladin lists or is there a taylored list for the class

also if your feeling really generous how does there celestial companion work.  the old one progressed by character level, somewhat broken.  

thanks again to any help everyone has been really great and i appreciate it since i have to rely on Borders and god know when they will put the book on shelves.


----------



## Thanee (May 14, 2004)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> edit: ...



 Wrong button? 



> also it could be geared towards the Spirit Shaman if he has SM spells but doesn't have that spontaneous casting



 Yep, that would be possible.

 Bye
 Thanee


----------



## youspoonybard (May 14, 2004)

If I may ask a question:

Are Nature's Avatar and Nature's Favor spells in the book?

If so, what do they do now?


----------



## Westwind (May 14, 2004)

Both spells are in there.

Nature's Favor (Druid 3, Ranger 2) works like Divine Favor, +1 luck bonus to attack and damage rolls per 2 caster levels (only targets animals).

Nature's Avatar  (Druid 9) gives an animal a +10 morale bonus to attack and damage rolls, 1d8 temporary hps per level and the effects of _haste_.

Here's the Holy Liberator's spell progression:

       1st     2nd    3rd     4th
1     0         -       -        -
2     1         -       -        -
3     1         0       -        -
4     1         1       -        -
5     1         1       0        -
6     1         1       1        -
7     2         1       1        0
8     2         1       1        1
9     2         2       1        1
10   2         2       2         1

It's worth noting that this is the spell progression all of the minor spellcasting prestige classes (Temple Raider, Pious Templar, etc.) get.

The spell list is the Paladin's, minus [Law] spells and adding: 1-protection from law; 2-heroism; 3-magic circle against law; 4-dispel law, freedom of movement.

Celestial Companion is still based on character level, but levels 1-12 are all the same so it's better scaled.

Edit: tried linking some Nastassja pics so demonstrate the remarkable similarity, but it ended up a terrible mess.


----------



## HighlandsBear (May 14, 2004)

Just to double check - the holy liberator gets detect evil as a special ability even though his spell versions are all law oriented? (protection from law, etc...) And no turn undead, so no divine might, etc... ? Sounds like it went from bard PrC to barbarian PrC with remove fatigue as a special ability. I assume the celestial companions are still weaker than a paladins - that is, the animals you choose from are weaker to begin with and the + HD, NA, and str progressions are behind the count. Any mention of getting a more powerful companion like the paladin special mounts in the DMG? I'm not sure how this class can compete with the paladin base class.

And thanks for the heads up on all of this!


----------



## Westwind (May 14, 2004)

> Just to double check - the holy liberator gets detect evil as a special ability even though his spell versions are all law oriented? (protection from law, etc...) And no turn undead, so no divine might, etc... ? Sounds like it went from bard PrC to barbarian PrC with remove fatigue as a special ability. I assume the celestial companions are still weaker than a paladins - that is, the animals you choose from are weaker to begin with and the + HD, NA, and str progressions are behind the count. Any mention of getting a more powerful companion like the paladin special mounts in the DMG? I'm not sure how this class can compete with the paladin base class.




It does get detect evil @ 1st level.

It doesn't get law-oriented spells, but it does get the evil/good spells on the Paladin's list.

It does not turn undead and therefore won't be able to use the Divine Might feat unless it entered the prestige class as a Cleric.

Remove fatigue seems like the CG answer to the Paladin's remove disease, although it would be a pretty sweet deal for a Barbarian.

The celestial companion list includes cat, eagle, hawk, warhorse, owl, pony, riding dog, and wolf.  The advancement table for the companion is the same as that of the Blackguard with the addition of speed bonuses in the first and third stages.  It makes sense (to me) that a prestige class' companion would be equal to another prestige class, not a core class.  After all, a Paladin has to remain in his class to continue advancing his mount, giving up the options that prestige classes offer.


----------



## the Jester (May 14, 2004)

What are the prereqs for divine oracle?


----------



## Clumsy Bob (May 14, 2004)

Speaks said:
			
		

> Yes the exorcist did change.
> 1) No more extra turning attempts
> 2) No exorcism domain but the gratned power is still given to the exorcist at first level.
> 3) At 8th level they can do holy aura once a day.
> ...




No more extra turning! whats left for them to take, can someone list the class benefits please.

Bob


----------



## Westwind (May 14, 2004)

> What are the prereqs for divine oracle?




Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion]), able to cast at least 2 divination spells.



> No more extra turning! whats left for them to take, can someone list the class benefits please.




1 exorcism, turn undead
2 detect evil, resist possession
3 chosen foe +1 (chosen foe adds to skills vs. either undead or evil outsiders and your attempts to overcome their SR)
4 dispel evil 1/week
5 consecrated presence (20' consecrated radius...nice)
6 chosen foe +2
7 dispel evil 2/week
8 holy aura 1/day
9 chosen foe +3
10 dispel evil 3/week

and full spellcasting progression.

[aside]
Am I the only one a little bothered by prestige classes that grant full spellcasting progression that don't really have a non-roleplaying drawback?  Is there any reason for a cleric of Pelor not to take the Radiant Servant prestige class?  At least the Divine Oracle makes you blow a feat, like Loremaster (which also makes a Wizard lose his free feat every 5th level), which helps balance things in my mind.  The Sacred Exorcist does get a poor Fort save, this post is really born out of a general thought, not this book or this PrC in particular.
[/aside]


----------



## the Jester (May 14, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> [aside]
> Am I the only one a little bothered by prestige classes that grant full spellcasting progression that don't really have a non-roleplaying drawback?  Is there any reason for a cleric of Pelor not to take the Radiant Servant prestige class?  At least the Divine Oracle makes you blow a feat, like Loremaster (which also makes a Wizard lose his free feat every 5th level), which helps balance things in my mind.  The Sacred Exorcist does get a poor Fort save, this post is really born out of a general thought, not this book or this PrC in particular.
> [/aside]




Yeah, I hate prcs that are obvious choices.  There should be some hard decisions in taking a prc- every class should have a reason to continue advancement.  (The paladin/knight of the chalice imc just took a paladin level instead of KotC level!)

That's my issue with sorcerers- once you can, there's usually no reason not to multiclass into some casting prc, you'll almost always gain something and lose nothing (ooh, your familiar won't progress).


----------



## glengarryleads (May 14, 2004)

I've been sorely hoping that CD would 'fix' a piece of gear that is stuck in limbo between its MoTW version and current rules that render it obsolete... so ... any change / mention of the Wilding Clasp?   :\ 

lh


----------



## Taren Seeker (May 14, 2004)

How has Spikes been changed?

It _must_ have been changed, right?


----------



## ForceUser (May 14, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> [aside]
> Am I the only one a little bothered by prestige classes that grant full spellcasting progression that don't really have a non-roleplaying drawback?  Is there any reason for a cleric of Pelor not to take the Radiant Servant prestige class?  At least the Divine Oracle makes you blow a feat, like Loremaster (which also makes a Wizard lose his free feat every 5th level), which helps balance things in my mind.  The Sacred Exorcist does get a poor Fort save, this post is really born out of a general thought, not this book or this PrC in particular.
> [/aside]



With regard to the Radiant Servant, you are giving up hit points at least. I believe they are a d6. But yes, if the RSoP is the same as in Dragon magazine, I'm disappointed. I played that PrC for six levels and I'm here to tell you that as portrayed in Dragon magazine, it's broken. Extra Greater Turning is too powerful an ability - we house-ruled it to a single extra GT. We also house-ruled that over ten levels you only gain nine +spell levels due to all of the special cool powers.

I think the Hierophant from the DMG is a good example of a cleric PrC, as is the Thaumaturge. You should have to give up something to enter a cleric PrC, because clerics are already good at everything - fighting, spellcasting, saving throws, hit points, armor, healing. I therefore find cleric PrCs that give you extra stuff and full casting progression without taking anything away automatically suspect and deserving of the nerf bat. For those of you who want to compare cleric PrCs to arcane PrCs, btw, keep in mind that wizards have 2 crappy saves, terrible HD, no armor, and bad BAB. Wizard PrCs that add stuff without taking stuff away are fine, because what's to take away from wizards? They are already the worst at everything except casting spells.


----------



## SKY (May 14, 2004)

*Sacred Fist*



			
				Westwind said:
			
		

> Hey, Teutonic women rock--check my location
> 
> Forgot to post the Sacred Fist's prereqs:
> 
> ...



Hello
Can anyone show me the updated Sacred Fist's Ability?
I am new to EN.
Thx.


----------



## Omand (May 14, 2004)

Milkman Dan said:
			
		

> The Repose domain's granted power is still death touch, as per the Death domain power.  The 1st level domain spell, _deathwatch_, was swapped with _hide from undead_.  Otherwise the domain is the same.
> 
> You mentioned the Artifice domain earlier. AFAIK, it was not updated in the 3.5 update booklet for Deities and Demigods.




Milkman Dan,

Thanks for that further update on things, I appreciate it.

In terms of Artifice, yeah I know that the D&DG version has remained the same, and I am still using it.  I was just hoping for a compilation so that I did not have to consult as many books for domains, spells, etc.  Of course, maybe Artifice will end up in Complete Expert or whatever the fourth class book ends up being.

Not really too much of a complaint on my part.  I do like what I am hearing about his book and will be shopping for it shortly (darn work schedule).

Cheers


----------



## Urbanmech (May 14, 2004)

Anyone have any clue what the release date is on this for the US stores?

Also how many new Druid spells are there?


----------



## youspoonybard (May 14, 2004)

Geez....

Thanks for telling me!

Wild Shape into an Animal, Wild Shape into an Elemental (keep the animal type), Animal Growth, Nature's Favor, Nature's Avatar...

...

...


----------



## Westwind (May 14, 2004)

> How has Spikes been changed?
> 
> It must have been changed, right?




They fixed it by removing it.  Thank God.  I played in a min-max romp (City of the Spider Queen) and that spell was one of the foundations for my character.  It wasn't pretty when the nice guy Cleric is upstaging the Fighter in terms of sheer damage output.



> I've been sorely hoping that CD would 'fix' a piece of gear that is stuck in limbo between its MoTW version and current rules that render it obsolete... so ... any change / mention of the Wilding Clasp?




This was fixed using the above technique.



> Anyone have any clue what the release date is on this for the US stores?




According to the store where I bought it, Friday (today).

Radiant Servant is a d6, so that might make a difference I suppose.  I'm not sure if this is a change from the Dragon version, but the free metamagic healing abilities now only apply to domain spells.  Still, a Cleric of Pelor with access to the Healing and Sun domains is not exactly a rare character concept...


----------



## Navar (May 14, 2004)

Sorry for reasking, but noone replied last time.  Does the Sacred Fist improve flurry, or just damage, AC, and movement?


----------



## Psion (May 14, 2004)

Got my copy today.

Thus far, I am generally happier with the book than I am CW. And for that matter, DotF. The core classes seem generally better done than CW, and the rest of the book seem to support divine characters better than DotF. Or even BoED.

The spirit shaman seems like a fine class. I will probably keep using the GR version for having a bit more flavor in dedicated spells, totems, and so forth. But the Spirit Shaman works well if you saw druids as shamanistic in the first place, and want to play  a spontaneous divine caster a bit more flexible than the favored soul.

And the full page Tiamat by WAR. Wow. Just wow.

I'm not liking Baxa, though.


----------



## Nightfall (May 14, 2004)

So what else did you buy and anything you think an SL DM like me might use?


----------



## Psion (May 14, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> So what else did you buy and anything you think an SL DM like me might use?




What else did I buy? A Wendy's hamburger. I'm sure a SL DM can use that. 

What make you think I bought anything else?    I thumbed through Blood Magic and considered getting it in the context that I still never found a blood mage class I was happy with and am to timestrapped to make my houserules blood witch. I was also tempted to buy the Mongoose EA compendium, but that would wipe out my gaming budget for the month and I own three of the component books (albeit, they are some of the best ones!), so I couldn't quite bring myself to do it.

But I am thinking about going back. 

Were you asking what from CD can be used in SL? A lot of the clerical stuff would work fine for clerics of the SL deities, and the Geomancer seems like he would be at home in SL.


----------



## Nightfall (May 14, 2004)

*was hoping you might have purchased Edge of Infinity*

By Clerical stuff, are you referring to the church structures or something else entirely?

(And yes I was referring to using CD in a Scarred Lands game for players and DMs alike)


----------



## Psion (May 14, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> *was hoping you might have purchased Edge of Infinity*




It sounded interesting, but it sounds like the sort of book I'd want to look through before I bought. And alas, there was no copy at the FLGS.

Mongoose seems to be the one company they order extra stuff for.



> By Clerical stuff, are you referring to the church structures or something else entirely?




No, mechanical stuff like feats (interdimensional spell sounds nice against some SL beasties!) and a few of the PrCs.


----------



## Nightfall (May 14, 2004)

Ah well mechanics wasn't too much was I was into but then again we'll see. (Probably just feats and spells. Pr-classes...tend to covered by most everything SL has done.)

I do hope you'll look through it enough to warrent buying it!  

Moving along,

More details on the Church and org sections please!


----------



## Driddle (May 14, 2004)

One of our local game shops is selling it today. Some of the comic book secondary game shops don't expect to carry it for another week. Barnes & Noble and Borders sales clerks said they probably won't get the book for another week or so.


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> They fixed it by removing it.  Thank God.  I played in a min-max romp (City of the Spider Queen) and that spell was one of the foundations for my character.  It wasn't pretty when the nice guy Cleric is upstaging the Fighter in terms of sheer damage output.
> 
> 
> The spikes spell is in the book and it does not appear to have changed it still reference brambles.  Seems pretty powerful still with no change from what I am seeing ofthe old version.
> ...


----------



## Taren Seeker (May 14, 2004)

I take that to mean that brambles is unchanged from the DotF version, and Spikes is still +2 enhancement, +1 damage per level, hour/level duration and doubles threat range?


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

SKY said:
			
		

> Hello
> Can anyone show me the updated Sacred Fist's Ability?
> I am new to EN.
> Thx.




hi new guy ..

The requirements"
BAB +4
Knowledge religion 8 rank
Feats: combat casting, combat reflexes, Improved unarmed strike, stunning fist
able to cast 1st level divine spells.

Full BAB
Good fort and reflex saves
1 - unarmed damage (stackwith monk unarmed damage) AC bonus +1, +1 spell casting
2 - +1 level spell casting
3 - +10 unarmed movement bonus (enhancment), +1 spell casting
4 - sacred flames once a day
5 - ac bonus +2, +1 lvl spell casting
6 - Blindsense 10', +20ft movement, +1 spell casating lvl
7 - +1 spell casting lvl
8 - Sacred flames 2/day, +30movement
9 - Spell casting level +1
10 - Inner armor, +3 ac bonus +1 spell casting level.

sacred flames - sacred fist class level + wisdom bous to damage and the effect last for 1 minute
inner armor - +4 sacred bonus to AC, +4 sacred bous to saves, SR25 last wisdom bonus in rounds and used once a day.

Speaks


----------



## Speaks (May 14, 2004)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> I take that to mean that brambles is unchanged from the DotF version, and Spikes is still +2 enhancement, +1 damage per level, hour/level duration and doubles threat range?





as near as I can tell no change from the old text for either spell. Spikes jsut says "as brambles, excpet that the affected weapon gains a +2 enhancment bonus on its attacks and its threat range is double".
Speaks


----------



## szwanger (May 15, 2004)

Speaks --

Thanks so much for posting all this information!  You are my hero. 

Are Sacred Fists still allowed to wear light armor and prohibited from wielding shields?

Also, do they progress their flurry rate as a monk?  Or get to stack their BAB with their monk levels for determining the flurry rate?

What type of action is it to turn on sacred flames and inner armor?

It sucks to lose uncanny dodge. 

Steve


----------



## Felon (May 15, 2004)

Haven't seen anyone ask yet, so can the details of the Celerity domain be posted? That was a truly munchkin prestige domain.

Say, does CD still support the concept of prestige domains, or do they just convert celerity and the rest into normal domains?


----------



## Speaks (May 15, 2004)

szwanger said:
			
		

> Speaks --
> 
> Thanks so much for posting all this information!  You are my hero.
> 
> ...





the ac bonus they gain is lost if they wear armor heavier then light.  Also lost if using a shield.  Still no other weapons then what your god gave ya.  They have in in the test if you multi-class outside of the Sacred Fist Class you can take any more levels of the fist (like monks).  Also it does not state they get the flurry ability in the text.

sacred flames - standard action
Inner armor - no action list

I know how much I wanted information on the book so I don't mind sharing when I can.

Speaks


----------



## Speaks (May 15, 2004)

Felon said:
			
		

> Haven't seen anyone ask yet, so can the details of the Celerity domain be posted? That was a truly munchkin prestige domain.
> 
> Say, does CD still support the concept of prestige domains, or do they just convert celerity and the rest into normal domains?





there are not really prestige domain anymore .. just domains .. some can be access through the prestige classes.  

clereity domain - granted power +10 movement if in light armor or light load
1 - expeditous retreat
2 - cats grace
3 - blur
4- haste
5 - tree stride
6 - wind walk
7 - cats grace mass
8 - improved blink (like blink but you don't have the 20% problems of normal blink spell)
9 - time stop


----------



## Felon (May 15, 2004)

Well, that's much more sane! Thanks, Speaks.


----------



## Psion (May 15, 2004)

Okay, looking deeper.

Hospitaler is no longer a twink class.

But so far as I can tell, playing a Radiant Servant is a win/win proposition for a cleric. It does EVERYTHING as good or better, as far as I can tell. Anyone want to point out what I am missing?


----------



## Felon (May 15, 2004)

d6 hit die?

Sounds like the Exorcist is much twinkier. Bad Fort save, big whoop.


----------



## nahualt (May 15, 2004)

What chages did they made to the Inquisitor?

what are the requirements?

is it now woth it to play?


----------



## Kwyn (May 15, 2004)

I think the Church Inquisitor looks very nice.  

I can't compare it to the original, but they get full spell progression and some really nice class abilities like Pierce Illusion, charm immunity, compulsion immunity, possession immunity and tha ability to force shapechange.

They get 4 skill points per level, which is unusual.  They don't gain turning and they only have good Will saves.  Must be Lawful Good.


----------



## Count Arioch the 28t (May 15, 2004)

How has the Geomancer been changed for 3.5?  I'm hoping a huge improvement myself.


----------



## Psion (May 15, 2004)

Count Arioch the 28t said:
			
		

> How has the Geomancer been changed for 3.5?  I'm hoping a huge improvement myself.




I didn't notice any differences, but I didn't do a side by side comparison.

I did notice they left a 3.0eism in the text; the reference to having the "blood like sap" ability seemed to refer to wounding as it existed in 3.0 (which I don't have a huge problem with, as I prefer the way they did it in 3.0).


----------



## Count Arioch the 28t (May 15, 2004)

So basically, it still sucks.

Not surprising, as it seems like most PrCs are a bitn underpowered.  

And to those who keep repeating "You should have to give up something to enter a PrC", I got one thing to say:

Having PrCs that are signifigantly too weak are just as imbalanced as ones that are too strong.  

I agree that you shouldn't get everything your old class has, but in return, you should be able to do something useful instead.  Giving up 5 spellcasting levels, or if you play epic, (Level-10)1/2 spellcasing levels is a HUGE deal.

Those abilities better be as good as 8th and 9th level spells, and scale with your levels into epic, or the price is too high, which means you are weaker than a straight class.

That's just as broken as being too powerful.


----------



## SKY (May 15, 2004)

*Thank You*



			
				Speaks said:
			
		

> hi new guy ..
> 
> The requirements"
> BAB +4
> ...




Thank you. Speaks.
It sound poor for updated version.


----------



## AdvntrGuy (May 15, 2004)

Speaks said:
			
		

> Basically no extra spells but cast yous at greater effect .. much like a bead of karma.




What book is the Bead of Karma from?  Can't seem to find it anywhere.  

Thanks,
AG


----------



## Kwyn (May 15, 2004)

AdvntrGuy said:
			
		

> What book is the Bead of Karma from?  Can't seem to find it anywhere.
> 
> Thanks,
> AG




Bead of Karma is one of the beads on the Strand of Prayer Beads.  DMG.


----------



## Speaks (May 15, 2004)

Count Arioch the 28t said:
			
		

> How has the Geomancer been changed for 3.5?  I'm hoping a huge improvement myself.




I have not played a geomancer but the text and abilities seem the same as the DotF book version.

Speaks


----------



## AdvntrGuy (May 15, 2004)

Kwyn said:
			
		

> Bead of Karma is one of the beads on the Strand of Prayer Beads.  DMG.




Ah, thanks.  Bless you my child.


----------



## Kwyn (May 15, 2004)

Divine Metamagic appears to let you make Divine Power persistant at level 7 without even having the Persistant or Extend feats.  All you need are 7 turning attempts to power it.

Righeous Might at level 9.

Crazy


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (May 15, 2004)

Can someone explain what is being said here?

Okay, the Radiant Servant's entry for *Spells per Day/Spells Known*:

"When a new radiant servant of Pelor level is gained, the character gains ne wspells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. *He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained (improved chance of controlling or rebuking undead, wild shape ability, and so on).*" (Emphasis added)

Then reconcile with this for the Radiant Servant:

Turn Undead: A radiant servant of Pelor adds his radiant servant class levels to his cleric levels for *all purposes related to turning undead*. (Emphasis added)

Am I missing something, or does the text say, at once, that the PrC DOESN'T allow the class levels to turn undead to stack (improve), and then goes right around and then says they DO stack?


----------



## hong (May 15, 2004)

Eric Anondson said:
			
		

> Can someone explain what is being said here?
> 
> Okay, the Radiant Servant's entry for *Spells per Day/Spells Known*:
> 
> ...



 It means that turn undead stacks, but that's because of a specific ability of the RS of Pelor, not because of how their caster level increases.


----------



## theria (May 15, 2004)

*Unknown magical item?*

I was wondering if anyone knows what the _feathered cape of the couatl_ mentioned in the Rainbow Servant description is supposed to be or where it came from. The closest magical item I could find was from a Wizards web article about rain forest magical items (_cloak of the couatl_).

Thanks.


----------



## Thanee (May 16, 2004)

Kwyn said:
			
		

> Divine Metamagic appears to let you make Divine Power persistant at level 7 without even having the Persistant or Extend feats.  All you need are 7 turning attempts to power it.




Haha.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Power_Munchkin (May 16, 2004)

*hm*

How does divine metamagic work without metamagic feats?


----------



## Kwyn (May 16, 2004)

Power_Munchkin said:
			
		

> How does divine metamagic work without metamagic feats?




It mimics the metamagic feats by using turn/rebuke attempts instead of higher level spell slots.  

Instead of taking Persistant Spell, you take Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell)

Instead of using higher level spell slots, you burn turning attempts. 1 plus the level modifier that the base metamagic feat would require.

For isntance, Persistant Spell is a 6 level modifier.  To use Divine Metamagic (Persistant) you would spend 7 turning attempts (1+6).

Personally, I think that somewhere along the line they forgot to add some text.

It currently reads *"...choose a metamagic feat.  This feat applies only to that metamagic feat."* 

You'd have to wonder if they didn't mean *"...choose a metamagic feat that you already possess.  This feat applies only to that metamagic feat."* 

Then, instead of being a replacement for the metamagic feats, it becomes an alternate way to power them.  Either use a higher level spell slot or burn turning attempts.

Granted you have more flexibility with the regular metamagic feats because you can do metamagic more spells per day, but for the high cost ones, that most people don't prepare a bunch of each day as metamagic, this is awesome.

Persistant Divine Favor at level 1.
Persistant Divine Might at level 7
Persistant Righteous Might at level 9

With this book, Extra Turning becomes almost a must because of all the cool Divine Feats.


----------



## EnderTheElder (May 16, 2004)

I saw where someone asked about the Contemplative but didn't see anything else posted about it. Did I miss it? If not could somebody please let us know if it has changed since DotF?


----------



## Celtavian (May 16, 2004)

*re*



			
				Kwyn said:
			
		

> It mimics the metamagic feats by using turn/rebuke attempts instead of higher level spell slots.
> 
> Instead of taking Persistant Spell, you take Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell)
> 
> ...




You could take _Persistent Spell_ Divine Metamagic. If you're willing to burn up nearly all your turning attempts to power a couple of spells then you should be able to have them work all day. 14 turn attempts to power two Persistent Spells is pretty harsh. That is alot of turning power used up. If someone dispells those spells, your screwed until the next day when you receive turning again.

Seems like a very balanced feat IMO.

I would personally probably get Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, or Twin Spell. Spending turning attempts to raise the save DC, do maximum damage, or hit someone twice with a _Destruction_ would be real nice.


----------



## Thanee (May 16, 2004)

Kwyn said:
			
		

> With this book, Extra Turning becomes almost a must because of all the cool Divine Feats.




Or the moon domain (or similar)... double your turn attempts right from the beginning! 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Thanee (May 16, 2004)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> Seems like a very balanced feat IMO.




I would guess, that it easily becomes broken...

Circumventing the cost of powerful abilities is rarely a good idea, balance-wise.

And spending turn attempts is another cost, but not even close to added spell levels.

Also, if the feat really doesn't have the requirement to possess the actual metamagic feat, then it's a rather cheap way to get that ability, too.

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Kwyn (May 16, 2004)

Well, when wizards with a single level dip in Sacred Exorcist, power up a persistant Shapechange, let me know if you still think it's very well balanced.  

You just know they were going to be using those turn attempts against undead, right?

The fact that this feat allows you to apply the persistant spell feat to spells which which normally were impossible to make persistant under 3.5 rules, seems to be a bit of an oversight on the designer's part.

I mean, how many level 15 spells does your typical wizard have prepared each day?


----------



## nahualt (May 16, 2004)

Kwyn said:
			
		

> I think the Church Inquisitor looks very nice.
> 
> I can't compare it to the original, but they get full spell progression and some really nice class abilities like Pierce Illusion, charm immunity, compulsion immunity, possession immunity and tha ability to force shapechange.
> 
> They get 4 skill points per level, which is unusual.  They don't gain turning and they only have good Will saves.  Must be Lawful Good.




and what is the BAB and skill requirements?

LAWFUL GOOD only? Guess that eliminates Torquemada from any D&D world..DAMN D&D morality....


----------



## Kwyn (May 16, 2004)

nahualt said:
			
		

> and what is the BAB and skill requirements?
> 
> LAWFUL GOOD only? Guess that eliminates Torquemada from any D&D world..DAMN D&D morality....




Correction: LG or LN

Cleric BAB
Arcana 4
Religion 4
Spellcraft 4
Able to cast Zone Of Truth as a divine spell
Will is the only good save


----------



## Marshall (May 16, 2004)

EnderTheElder said:
			
		

> I saw where someone asked about the Contemplative but didn't see anything else posted about it. Did I miss it? If not could somebody please let us know if it has changed since DotF?




Hasn't changed a lick, other than to require the ability to cast 1st level Divine Spells. So no more free becoming a CLR.


----------



## Bill Muench (May 16, 2004)

Actually, one other change: the Divine Soul ability grants SR of 15 + class level instead of 10 + class level, so it isn't entirely useless like it was before (whee, SR 20 at 20th level...).

Overall, I'm rather unimpressed with it. Lots of errors (including missing material like the spells Vine Mine and Embrace the Wild, even though they are referenced elsewhere) and lots of information with little or even ZERO changes. Also, some of the updates are just poorly thought out, IMO. Ex: The new requirements for Divine Oracle require Skill Focus (Knowledge: Religion). Why not Spell Focus: Divination?

Bill


----------



## Madriver (May 16, 2004)

Spikes is exactly the same as in the 3.0 splat books, +2 enhancement bonus, +1/lvl damage, doubles threat range, and lasts 1 hour/lvl. With the new Divine Metamagic feat, they brought back into play the cleric uber-fighter who will again put the fighters to shame in terms of damage.

Example, a 7th lvl cleric using a maul with Extra Turning can cast persistent Divine Power (7 turn attempts) and Spikes (lasts 7 hours). This cleric will have fighter BAB, a really high STR (DP is +6 to STR), more HP's, and have a weapon that deals (assuming the CLR had a base STR of 16) 1d10 + 16 damage with a 19-20 (x3) threat range. Wow.


----------



## Remathilis (May 16, 2004)

Anyone notice what Tharisdun's favored weapon is?



Spoiler



It says "check toee", which I assume means check temple of elemental evil, a publishers note never corrected


----------



## Kwyn (May 16, 2004)

Madriver said:
			
		

> Spikes is exactly the same as in the 3.0 splat books, +2 enhancement bonus, +1/lvl damage, doubles threat range, and lasts 1 hour/lvl. With the new Divine Metamagic feat, they brought back into play the cleric uber-fighter who will again put the fighters to shame in terms of damage.
> 
> Example, a 7th lvl cleric using a maul with Extra Turning can cast persistent Divine Power (7 turn attempts) and Spikes (lasts 7 hours). This cleric will have fighter BAB, a really high STR (DP is +6 to STR), more HP's, and have a weapon that deals (assuming the CLR had a base STR of 16) 1d10 + 16 damage with a 19-20 (x3) threat range. Wow.




A maul won't work with Spikes because the damage dealing end is made out of metal.

Club, Nunchaku, Q-Staff, Great Club... all Spikes worthy weapons.

I'm a bit surprised the spell kept it's duration of 1 hr per level myself.


----------



## Taren Seeker (May 16, 2004)

which is why you use a Duskwood Maul or other weapon. Did they at least make sure that you can't use it on non blunt weapons now?


----------



## shilsen (May 16, 2004)

Madriver said:
			
		

> Spikes is exactly the same as in the 3.0 splat books, +2 enhancement bonus, +1/lvl damage, doubles threat range, and lasts 1 hour/lvl. With the new Divine Metamagic feat, they brought back into play the cleric uber-fighter who will again put the fighters to shame in terms of damage.
> 
> Example, a 7th lvl cleric using a maul with Extra Turning can cast persistent Divine Power (7 turn attempts) and Spikes (lasts 7 hours). This cleric will have fighter BAB, a really high STR (DP is +6 to STR), more HP's, and have a weapon that deals (assuming the CLR had a base STR of 16) 1d10 + 16 damage with a 19-20 (x3) threat range. Wow.



 Even without all the Persistent craziness, that spell is just wrong. Especially for its level. Ah well, house rule time.


----------



## Kwyn (May 16, 2004)

Where is the Duskwood special material type?

In any event you'd have to spend a feat on it.  With something that broken, just give me a regular ol' club.  I can live without the extra couple of points of damage.


----------



## Gort (May 16, 2004)

Yeah, our party munchkin abused spikes also.

Sucks that it's still around - I was so impressed with Complete Warrior (bar the obvious "WTF Samurai"), as well, shame this book doesn't seem to be up to the same standard...


----------



## Kwyn (May 17, 2004)

Personally, I think this book is better.


----------



## Saeviomagy (May 17, 2004)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> You could take _Persistent Spell_ Divine Metamagic. If you're willing to burn up nearly all your turning attempts to power a couple of spells then you should be able to have them work all day. 14 turn attempts to power two Persistent Spells is pretty harsh. That is alot of turning power used up. If someone dispells those spells, your screwed until the next day when you receive turning again.
> 
> Seems like a very balanced feat IMO.
> 
> I would personally probably get Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell, or Twin Spell. Spending turning attempts to raise the save DC, do maximum damage, or hit someone twice with a _Destruction_ would be real nice.




This feat is flat-out insane. Just insane. Even IF you have to also have the metamagics.

The amount of times our cleric goes around with unused turning attempts - this feat would be used constantly.

I can't imagine making a cleric without this feat.

Hell, I can't imagine making a wizard and not doing that whole sacred exorcist thing.

That makes it broken.


----------



## Madriver (May 17, 2004)

Kwyn said:
			
		

> A maul won't work with Spikes because the damage dealing end is made out of metal.




A maul can also have the striking ends made of wood and have metal framing and supporting it, as per the Forest Master picture in Faiths and Pantheons, but that is just a minor thing.   



			
				Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Hell, I can't imagine making a wizard and not doing that whole sacred exorcist thing.




Heh, I'm thinking this feat would be deadly with the Mystic Theurge...add 2 or 3 Extra Turning Feats and the PC would have quite a powerful list of arcane damage spells. A MT with 2 Extra Turning feats and a CHA of 16 (sorceror MT) would be able to Empower his damage spells 3 times a day at no extra cost, and still have 2 turning attempts left over for those pesky undead.


----------



## Madriver (May 17, 2004)

Gort said:
			
		

> Yeah, our party munchkin abused spikes also.




Hehehe, so did I at one point, have yet to live it down.


----------



## beaver1024 (May 17, 2004)

Previously I made a prediction that even though the PrCs were tonned down slightly new feats and spells will still maintain the overpowered cleric/druid. I was making the prediction facetiously. Looks like I was wrong.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 17, 2004)

> Persistant Righteous Might at level 9




Way to break the metacap, WotC.



			
				Sean K Reynolds said:
			
		

> Let's see, for Pious Defense I can spend a faith point to take half damage from an attack that would drop me to 0 hit points or less. An orc hits me for 10 points, I spend a faith point to reduce that to 5 points. A balor crits me for 100 points, I spend a faith point to reduce that to 50 points. Wow, that's even better than the rogue's Defensive Roll ability (which only works on weapons or similar attacks, not spells or special abilities, and the rogue has to make a save, DC = damage dealt).




And more



> Pious Spellsurge lets you spend 2 faith points to boost a spell DC or caster level by +1d6. Er, and Spell Focus was too good at +2?




 



> Do clerics really need this sort of boost? I do not think so; clerics are the best class in the game. What did the fighter-types get in Complete Warrior that boosted them far above their core D&D power level? (I honestly don't know.)




Well, a few PrCs.



> Is this the sort of boost we should expect for Complete Mage and Complete Sneaky?
> 
> ::grumble::
> 
> Edit: Let me add that I like variant rules systems like this, and I like giving characters more options. I just don't like it when this sort of option is presented as an add-on to a class, which gives an overall powerup to the class. And cleric is already the strongest class in the game.


----------



## Taren Seeker (May 17, 2004)

where is the SKR post from?


----------



## Taren Seeker (May 17, 2004)

Kwyn said:
			
		

> Where is the Duskwood special material type?
> 
> In any event you'd have to spend a feat on it.  With something that broken, just give me a regular ol' club.  I can live without the extra couple of points of damage.



 Duskwood is from Magic of Faerun...Ironwood works just as well.

It's not the base damage that you look at, it's the threat range and crit multiplier.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 17, 2004)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> where is the SKR post from?




On his website. Here's the link to his thread: http://p082.ezboard.com/fseankreynoldsboardsfrm1.showMessage?topicID=1793.topic


----------



## Al'Kelhar (May 17, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> Chapter 2: Prestige Classes
> I think they've all been covered elsewhere.  The only one that struck me as being a possible problem is the Radiant Servant of Pelor, which looks unchanged from its Dragon version.
> 
> Chapter 3: Supplemental Rules
> Feat, feats, and more feats.  Two "new" types of feats: divine and wild.  Divine feats let you spend a turn attempt to do something else (there are 10 of them plus True Believer), wild feats are the same except you spend a wild shape use for a physical improvement for a short period of time.  In general, some of the feats look very nice (Augment Healing: +2 to healing spells/level, Spontaneous Healer: allows non-clerics to swap out spells for healing spells--this could break the Druid).   There are also variant rules for faith points and feats you can use faith points (sort of like action points from UA).  Epic rules are included as well at the end.




Having purchased my copy of the _Complete Divine_ only a few days ago and not having much time to read into it, a few things did strike me as unbalanced.

The Radiant Soul of Pelor - A cleric can qualify for it by 5th level, gains +1 divine spellcasting level per level as well as seriouly enhanced turning and healing.  The down-side?  Hit Die reduced from d8 to d6.  Unbalanced class.  My suggestion - drop the "+1 level of divine spellcasting class" from 1st level, and put Hit Die back up to d8.  The caster's healing spells are just as powerful, because of the +1 caster level as the Healing domain granted power, but his narrow focus on healing and turning means he's lost a smidgin of his other spell power.

Quicken Turning - Can turn undead as a free action, although cannot turn more than once per round.  No pre-reqs (apart from the ability to turn undead, duh), no down-side, allows the cleric two serious combat actions per round (turn undead and spell casting).  My suggestion - remove the restriction on two turn attempts in a single round, but make a single quickened turn cost three of the cleric's turn attempts for the day.

Augment Healing is to clerics as weapon focus is to fighters - "the feat every cleric has to have".

Then there's the feat which grants a multi-classed spellcaster a +4 caster level bonus (although caster level cannot exceed character's HD)!  So the multi-classed spellcaster now has the same caster level as the primary spellcasters in the party.  Yeah, right.

_Complete Divine_ is another in the long line of D&D "power up" books, that every player needs to have because if they don't they're falling behind wedding-tackle-wise.  I should have bought _Fiend Folio_ (which is what I originally intended to purchase when I walked into my FLGS).

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


----------



## Kwyn (May 17, 2004)

> The Radiant Soul of Pelor - A cleric can qualify for it by 5th level




One of the prereqs is Knowledge: Religion 9

So, you would have to be 6th level (presumably cleric) prior to taking a level of RSoP.


----------



## Al'Kelhar (May 17, 2004)

Kwyn said:
			
		

> One of the prereqs is Knowledge: Religion 9
> 
> So, you would have to be 6th level (presumably cleric) prior to taking a level of RSoP.




Sorry, my mistake, I'm going by memory here.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


----------



## beaver1024 (May 17, 2004)

I shudder to ask this but is Miasma back and if so, how has it changed?


----------



## shilsen (May 17, 2004)

Al'Kelhar said:
			
		

> Then there's the feat which grants a multi-classed spellcaster a +4 caster level bonus (although caster level cannot exceed character's HD)!  So the multi-classed spellcaster now has the same caster level as the primary spellcasters in the party.  Yeah, right.




That feat only raises caster level, right? If earlier responses on this thread are correct, it does not actually raise the character's level where spells per day is concerned. So a Ftr4/Clr5 with the feat would have a caster level of 9 but would have the same spells per day as a Ftr4/Clr5 without the feat. IMO, that makes it a strong feat, but not an overpowered one.


----------



## Pants (May 17, 2004)

Damn, I was looking forward to this book, but after all of this, my interest is beginning to die down quite a bit.


----------



## Olive (May 17, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> Damn, I was looking forward to this book, but after all of this, my interest is beginning to die down quite a bit.




Remember that everyone who actually has the book bar one says that they like it better than CW, a book that most people liked better than the previous splats.

If it's like CW or better it'll be worth picking up. One PrC and a couple of feats that are overpowered don't ruin the other 20 PrCs and 25 feats (or whatever the totals are) that are in the book. Neither do they ruin the relics rules, advice on including religion in your games or whatever else is in there.


----------



## Pants (May 17, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> Remember that everyone who actually has the book bar one says that they like it better than CW, a book that most people liked better than the previous splats.
> 
> If it's like CW or better it'll be worth picking up. One PrC and a couple of feats that are overpowered don't ruin the other 20 PrCs and 25 feats (or whatever the totals are) that are in the book. Neither do they ruin the relics rules, advice on including religion in your games or whatever else is in there.



Well, I guess the praise can certainly get drowned out in the criticism of a spell, and a couple of feats.

That said, I'll most likely leaf through it first.


----------



## Saeviomagy (May 17, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> Remember that everyone who actually has the book bar one says that they like it better than CW, a book that most people liked better than the previous splats.
> 
> If it's like CW or better it'll be worth picking up. One PrC and a couple of feats that are overpowered don't ruin the other 20 PrCs and 25 feats (or whatever the totals are) that are in the book. Neither do they ruin the relics rules, advice on including religion in your games or whatever else is in there.



The problem is this:

If you can pick up a book, and know that nothing in there needs particular attention paid to it for the entire book to be useable, then it's value is far, far greater than a book where everything needs to be vetted by the DM.

CW looked fine at first. Indeed almost all of the book is useable as-is, with only a couple of points that the DM needs to take note of, and those points are quite obscure, requiring the addition of other questionable material to bring true monstrosities into play. The combinations will be sufficiently unusual that most DMs would take a single look at the character and immediately ask the player "so what's the trick?".

CD is looking like it has, out of the gate, some true monstrosities, even just keeping to core + CD. I can only hope that there are not far worse things lurking out of sight that will be discovered later. Furthermore, these aren't things that an entire character needs to be built around - they're little things which added to a character become untenable.

And there's the problem. I can't just say "Core plus splatbooks are legal" any more. I have to vet each and every feat, each and every spell, each and every prestige class etc once again. Because the guy writing the book, who's supposed to have done all that for me, didn't.


----------



## Al'Kelhar (May 17, 2004)

shilsen said:
			
		

> That feat only raises caster level, right? If earlier responses on this thread are correct, it does not actually raise the character's level where spells per day is concerned. So a Ftr4/Clr5 with the feat would have a caster level of 9 but would have the same spells per day as a Ftr4/Clr5 without the feat. IMO, that makes it a strong feat, but not an overpowered one.




You're correct on its effect.  Sure, you don't have as many spells per day, nor access to higher level spells, but in one stroke you've catapulted all level-variable effects of the spells you do have (range, duration, damage dice) and your ability to penetrate SR by up to 4 levels!  This is potentially game-breaking for the multi-classed sorcerer or wizard, particularly if taken in conjunction with a PrC specifically designed for multi-class characters (e.g. arcane trickster or spellsword).  Any player in my campaign who even dares to ask if they can take this feat gets an insta-xp-penalty!

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


----------



## Count Arioch the 28t (May 17, 2004)

I already have to approve every feat, PrC, and et cetera already.  Have since 3E came out.  I'm used to it by now.

I think I'll file Complete divine under the "maybe" pile.  Like, if I find it on sale or something.  It doesn't seem that good, but it does seem to have some pretty neat ideas I can cannibalize.


----------



## Dalamar (May 17, 2004)

Just crossed my mind: does the feat say you have to specify which class' caster level you increase if you have multiple ones? Because if not, that'll be the favorite feat for each and every mystic theurge from now on.


----------



## Melkantur (May 17, 2004)

*Couatl Cloak*

Heya,

the Couatl Cloak (sorry if this was already answered) is a magic item found in the living greyhawk campaign, unique to a certain scenario.  To avoid 'spoiler' information for LG players, I'll email people offboard if they want to know it's attributes.

Mel


----------



## Celtavian (May 17, 2004)

*re*

I like the _Complete Warrior_ book better, less oversight on overpowered spells, feats and Prc's. The _Complete Divine_ has quite a few things that sane DM's wouldn't want in their campaign.

_Miasma_ didn't really change. It's still the same no save death spell it was before. It may take along time to kill, but there is no way to stop it save by dispelling it. 

Radiant Servant of Pelor Extra Greater Turning would ruin any undead module. 

_Divine Metamagic_ can allow for some seriously screwed up spell combinations as others have stated such as persistent _Shapechange_ or _Divine Power_ at much lower levels than they could previously have obtained such spells.

On a personal note, there are a few feats I don't like for flavor reasons. Specifically Disciple of the Sun which grants greater turning to any class that can turn undead for 2 turn attempts even if they don't worship a sun god. 

There is alot of a good stuff in the _Complete Divine_. Relics was a great addition to magic items. It's nice to have updated Prc's. Overall, I think the _Complete Warrior_ was a superior book with a good mix between balance and flavor.


----------



## jensun (May 17, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> And there's the problem. I can't just say "Core plus splatbooks are legal" any more.



Are you suggesting that you could do this with the 3.0 splatbooks?


----------



## beaver1024 (May 17, 2004)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> _Miasma_ didn't really change. It's still the same no save death spell it was before. It may take along time to kill, but there is no way to stop it save by dispelling it.




   

OMG. WotC truly love their darling cleric/druids.


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## Count Arioch the 28t (May 17, 2004)

Celtavian said:
			
		

> _Miasma_ didn't really change. It's still the same no save death spell it was before. It may take along time to kill, but there is no way to stop it save by dispelling it.




Dang.  I didn't like how that spell was worded at all, apperantly, it's not changed.

I give it the same abiltity as the psionic power Crisis of breath:  You can either take your standard action to breath, or try to hold your breath and take your standard action normally.  It's basically a long duration, no save slow spell in my game.


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## fba827 (May 17, 2004)

this may have already been answered.. but anyone know when the street date on this is supposed to be (in the US) ?  I haven't noticed it out and Amazon and a couple other online sellers still have it listed as not yet published.


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## Kwyn (May 17, 2004)

It hit the shelves on Friday the 14th FBA


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## Madriver (May 17, 2004)

beaver1024 said:
			
		

> I shudder to ask this but is Miasma back and if so, how has it changed?




It is back and changed to a 6th lvl spell and the duration is 3 rounds/lvl instead of 5...otherwise it is the same and still raises some doubts in my mind.  :\ 

Also, Natures Favor is back in, +1 luck bonus to attack and damage per 2 levels without a cap it seems. It is cast on an animal, so it would work on the druid while shape changed. Duration is 1min/lvl, so it's not too bad... Cast this and natures avatar at 20th lvl and the druid is a force to reckon with, +20 to attack and damage, haste, and 20d8 temporary HP's.


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## Kyamsil (May 17, 2004)

Any changes to the Bear's Heart spell?

Back in 3.0 it was too good. Still feels like too good at 1 level less than Mass Bear's Endurance, specially for druids who get this at level 4 and so 2 levels less than Mass Bear's Endurance. 

The drawbacks and short duration are rarely an issue for this beefer spell if combats will be around a minute or less in duration (as they usually are imc)


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## Westwind (May 17, 2004)

Sorry about the _spikes_ snafu a few pages back, not sure how I missed that.  Wishful thinking maybe.

In terms of practical application, I think that Domain Spontaneity (Knowledge) is actually better than some of the Divine Metamagic (Persistant Spell).  Sure, you'll get some pretty sweet boosts along the way, but any DM who plays more than 2 or 3 sessions is going to up the number of undead or other applications of positive energy.  On the other hand, buring excess turning attempts at the end of the day to cast a bunch of divinations sounds like a really solid tactic to me.



> Anyone notice what Tharisdun's favored weapon is?




I hadn't noticed this before, but it says "check toee" so I guess if you're going to use Tharisdun, you need to pick up that adventure.  Not crazy about the policy of incomplete material presented in a product, but it's not a major deal to me in this case.



> And there's the problem. I can't just say "Core plus splatbooks are legal" any more. I have to vet each and every feat, each and every spell, each and every prestige class etc once again. Because the guy writing the book, who's supposed to have done all that for me, didn't.




Just about every splatbook generates this criticism, and in many ways it's a fair one.  However, I imagine it would be almost impossible for writers to create a product whose power-level fits perfectly in any campaign.  In the above-mentioned City of the Spider Queen adventure, I played an over-powered Cleric with some insane tricks I would never allow in a campaign I was running, but it worked since the power of our opposition (and really, their numbers and our environment) evened out whatever advantages we had.  There are things in CD I won't allow or might have to adjust before I allow them, but it's still a useful resource (imho) since it gives me a lot of stuff I will use and ideas to develop more material on my own.


----------



## Nightfall (May 17, 2004)

CD doesn't worry me since the Scarred Lands already covers a good bit o stuff that I feel does pretty well on its own.


----------



## Speaks (May 17, 2004)

Kyamsil said:
			
		

> Any changes to the Bear's Heart spell?
> 
> Back in 3.0 it was too good. Still feels like too good at 1 level less than Mass Bear's Endurance, specially for druids who get this at level 4 and so 2 levels less than Mass Bear's Endurance.
> 
> The drawbacks and short duration are rarely an issue for this beefer spell if combats will be around a minute or less in duration (as they usually are imc)




Bears heart did not make it into the CD.  Rats one of our party favorites.

Speaks


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## Hjorimir (May 17, 2004)

Madriver said:
			
		

> Also, Natures Favor is back in, +1 luck bonus to attack and damage per 2 levels without a cap it seems. It is cast on an animal, so it would work on the druid while shape changed. Duration is 1min/lvl, so it's not too bad... Cast this and natures avatar at 20th lvl and the druid is a force to reckon with, +20 to attack and damage, haste, and 20d8 temporary HP's.




I will have to look it up but I was under the impression that when a druid wild shapes that his type didn't actually change. So he wouldn't be subject to spells like _Nature's Favor_.


----------



## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 17, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> Just about every splatbook generates this criticism, and in many ways it's a fair one.  However, I imagine it would be almost impossible for writers to create a product whose power-level fits perfectly in any campaign.




No, but they could select a power level that's the same as in the core books.

It's not the combos that annoy me so much as every splatbook seems to contain one or several things that should _obviously_ not have been printed.

Something giving a 1d6 unnamed bonus to save DCs shouldn't have been printed.

Miasma should have been changed.

The frenzied berserker should not have been re-made - they didn't actually fix it.

WotC does playtest, followed by development. They should add a second playtest to their products _post_ development so someone can check on the added work.



			
				Hjorimir said:
			
		

> I will have to look it up but I was under the impression that when a druid wild shapes that his type didn't actually change. So he wouldn't be subject to spells like Nature's Favor.




No, the new wild shape rules are somewhat broken and include type-changing, with Animal Growth cheese and all that. That's not even including _awaken_ cheese. I don't know why they didn't use something closer to the Masters of the Wild text.


----------



## MeepoTheMighty (May 18, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> CD doesn't worry me since the Scarred Lands already covers a good bit o stuff that I feel does pretty well on its own.



I think you and dialgo should get together and work on an OD&D(1974) conversion of Scarred Lands.  Then you could combine your powers and become the best threadspammer ever.


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## MrFilthyIke (May 18, 2004)

MeepoTheMighty said:
			
		

> I think you and dialgo should get together and work on an OD&D(1974) conversion of Scarred Lands.  Then you could combine your powers and become the best threadspammer ever.




But...wouldn't that be the last sign of the the apocalypse?


----------



## Nightfall (May 18, 2004)

It would be a sign that's for sure. (Besides no way dialgo and I could ever agree on anything.)


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## Saeviomagy (May 18, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> Just about every splatbook generates this criticism, and in many ways it's a fair one.  However, I imagine it would be almost impossible for writers to create a product whose power-level fits perfectly in any campaign.  In the above-mentioned City of the Spider Queen adventure, I played an over-powered Cleric with some insane tricks I would never allow in a campaign I was running, but it worked since the power of our opposition (and really, their numbers and our environment) evened out whatever advantages we had.  There are things in CD I won't allow or might have to adjust before I allow them, but it's still a useful resource (imho) since it gives me a lot of stuff I will use and ideas to develop more material on my own.



Complete warrior didn't have any real problems, aside from the rather obscure hulking hurler number crunch. The worst PrC's in it are not really that bad - they tend to give up something real and tangible for their benefits. Beyond that, they were giving power ups to what are the classes that need them the most. I would have felt quite comfortable adding the book as a whole to a campaign, and simply having to review characters as they came through. The same is true of the miniatures handbook.

Complete divine seems to have quite a number of problems, ones which are violating the basic tenets of the game. In other areas it's presenting benefits for no cost. Also it's adding considerable power to a class which simply doesn't need more power. Finally, most of the problems seem to stem more from laziness than from a genuine difficulty in balancing mechanics.


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## Al'Kelhar (May 18, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> I hadn't noticed this before, but it says "check toee" so I guess if you're going to use Tharisdun, you need to pick up that adventure.  Not crazy about the policy of incomplete material presented in a product, but it's not a major deal to me in this case.




I believe that reference means "Check _Temple of Elemental Evil_".  It's the author's shorthand of saying "I need to look this up later".  The _Complete Divine_ is full of typographical errors.  I've found at least five, just by skim-reading.  I know this is debated on these boards from time to time, but I expect *more* from professional publishers like WotC.  If I can draft my own 20+ page adventure in MS Word and not have more than two or three typos in it, I think WotC can get their act together better.  My advice for those of you who haven't bought it yet is to wait for the reprint of _Complete Divine_.  Of course, if no-one buys it, then it won't be re-printed, but them's the breaks.

BTW Tharizdun's favoured weapon is the (curved) dagger.

Cheers, Al'Kelhar


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## Olive (May 18, 2004)

Al'Kelhar said:
			
		

> The _Complete Divine_ is full of typographical errors.




Sigh. Ah well. I'm not going to wait, because I suspect there never will be a reprint, but the 'check toee' thing is pretty blatant.


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## Thotas (May 18, 2004)

For DMs who feel that the various overpowered spells and feats listed earlier on this thread threaten their campaign balance, let me point out the spell "Stalwart Pact".  The balancing factor in this otherwise scary spell is the XP component cost ... that NPCs don't have to worry about.  And duration is permanent until triggered.  So Madame Evilla, 9th level priestess of Loviatar, has 25 ogre minions, and once they hit half hit point status, they get 45 extra hit points, damage resistance, and +4 on all their saves for the next 9 rounds.


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## Yair (May 18, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> Complete warrior didn't have any real problems, aside from the rather obscure hulking hurler number crunch. The worst PrC's in it are not really that bad - they tend to give up something real and tangible for their benefits. Beyond that, they were giving power ups to what are the classes that need them the most. I would have felt quite comfortable adding the book as a whole to a campaign, and simply having to review characters as they came through. The same is true of the miniatures handbook.
> 
> Complete divine seems to have quite a number of problems, ones which are violating the basic tenets of the game. In other areas it's presenting benefits for no cost. Also it's adding considerable power to a class which simply doesn't need more power. Finally, most of the problems seem to stem more from laziness than from a genuine difficulty in balancing mechanics.



I personally found the Warshaper from CW apallingly powerful, though I didn't play it. (Yet. I have a Barbarian/Fighter/Bearwarrior build gearing up to it, assuming the DM will agree...)

I haven't read CD, but based on this thread, it has its problems.


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## Westwind (May 18, 2004)

I'm pretty sure that if something like that was done with _stalwart pact_ it would be appropriate to tack on an ad-hoc xp award for the ogres.


----------



## Thanee (May 18, 2004)

About that feat, which let's you stack levels when multiclassing to get a higher caster level (max +4)... isn't that just perfect for the Mystic Theurge?

  It would allow that character to keep up somewhat better with single class spellcasters.

 Would a MT need to take it twice for full benefit?

  Bye
  Thanee


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## Marshall (May 18, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> About that feat, which let's you stack levels when multiclassing to get a higher caster level (max +4)... isn't that just perfect for the Mystic Theurge?




Yes


> Would a MT need to take it twice for full benefit?



Yes


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## Shard O'Glase (May 19, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> About that feat, which let's you stack levels when multiclassing to get a higher caster level (max +4)... isn't that just perfect for the Mystic Theurge?
> 
> It would allow that character to keep up somewhat better with single class spellcasters.
> 
> ...




The MT needs to keep up with single classed spellcasters.    

IME it more than keeps up as is.


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## Ripper-nk (May 19, 2004)

Please anybody can give me a real answer!
I read all 12 pages and only find 3 contraditory answers.

Spikes and brambles, what's changes in thats spells? post here please.


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## Saeviomagy (May 19, 2004)

Yair said:
			
		

> I personally found the Warshaper from CW apallingly powerful, though I didn't play it. (Yet. I have a Barbarian/Fighter/Bearwarrior build gearing up to it, assuming the DM will agree...)




It's not appalingly powerful by a long shot. For wizards who qualify, they give up spellcasting progression, and already have a paltry attack bonus and bad hitpoints for a front line fighter, although they have the best forms to choose, and the potential to retain the use of magical items.

For anyone else, they lose their magical items and have them replaced with a +4 to strength and con, immunity to crits (nice, but not amazing), fast healing 2 (which has almost zero impact DURING a fight) and the ability to keep changing during a single use of their shapeshifting ability. Druids lose their spell and special ability progression. Typically it's an exchange of flexibility for power.


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## Thotas (May 19, 2004)

Absolutely, westwind.  Just pointing out the potential for DM abuse, too.  My scenario is kind of whacko in that it's unlikely that our villian has been able to cast that many of the spell without some of them being activated unless she's very, very patient and laying very, very low.  And it uses up almost a third of the experience she could have used to go to 10th level.  No PC would ever try to pull that off, even if they could, but NPCs could make it Standard Operating Proceedure.


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## Psiblade (May 19, 2004)

After reading through most of this thread, I am still happy with the CD. There are a couple of problem children (Radiant Servant of Pelor/Miasma).

Other issues have been over done. Example was someone with two Divine Metamagic Persistent spells. That requires fourteen turning attempts. You only get three + chr. bonus/penalty. Charisma is also not normally a place where you want to put points. Extra turning only adds 4 per feat. 

I like a lot of the domains, spells, and prestige classes (Seeker PrC, Improved Smiting, etc.). A lot of changes from 3.0 to 3.5 were well done (Celerity Domain, Mysticism domain, etc.). I plan to allow a good chunk of CD into the game I run. You should always look at a book for yourself.

-Psiblade


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## Trainz (May 19, 2004)

Psiblade said:
			
		

> Other issues have been over done. Example was someone with two Divine Metamagic Persistent spells. That requires fourteen turning attempts. You only get three + chr. bonus/penalty. Charisma is also not normally a place where you want to put points. Extra turning only adds 4 per feat.



It gets really weird when your 25th level Sorceror with close to 40 Charisma take one level of cleric.

Or just your Paladin.

You know...


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## Pants (May 19, 2004)

Trainz said:
			
		

> It gets really weird when your 25th level Sorceror with close to 40 Charisma take one level of cleric.
> 
> Or just your Paladin.
> 
> You know...



Personally, if you have a character like that, then you deserve to have those things persistent.  
ESPECIALLY, when you have a Charisma score near equal to Gods'.


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## mhacdebhandia (May 19, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> The MT needs to keep up with single classed spellcasters.
> 
> IME it more than keeps up as is.



The mystic theurge has breadth, of course. I can still easily imagine a mystic theurge taking the feat in question (I believe it's Practiced Spellcaster, yes?) because they're concerned about spell DCs and spell resistance.


----------



## Urbanmech (May 19, 2004)

My one gripe with CD is the fact that beyond the spells and wild feats Druids get 1 questionable PrC (the blighter doesn't count).  The Seeker of the Misty Isle isn't really that nature focused.  Why does WotC have such a problem coming up with suitable druid PrC's?  The ones featured in CW (Natures Warrior, War Shaper) were way better than anything in CD.  I wonder why the Animal Lord didn't make it back in.


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## Shard O'Glase (May 19, 2004)

Psiblade said:
			
		

> After reading through most of this thread, I am still happy with the CD. There are a couple of problem children (Radiant Servant of Pelor/Miasma).
> 
> Other issues have been over done. Example was someone with two Divine Metamagic Persistent spells. That requires fourteen turning attempts. You only get three + chr. bonus/penalty. Charisma is also not normally a place where you want to put points. Extra turning only adds 4 per feat.
> 
> ...




Well 1 as pointed out a sorcerer could take a prestige class that gives turning attempts and this could get really nasty.  And even without that a cleric easily could have a base 14 chr since chr isn't a dump stat for them, with a good item and 1 extra turning feat they'd have 13 turning attempts.  not enough for 2 persistents but what if they took divine metamagic quicken(2 of them then), or divine metamagic empower(4 of them).  Without the book I don't know if there possible, but that could be quite potent.  And quite frankly the sorcerer with divine empower and a heap of turning attempts would be flat out sick.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (May 19, 2004)

mhacdebhandia said:
			
		

> The mystic theurge has breadth, of course. I can still easily imagine a mystic theurge taking the feat in question (I believe it's Practiced Spellcaster, yes?) because they're concerned about spell DCs and spell resistance.




Yeah well I guess its campaign style dependent and all that but in my games the mystic theurge breadth is so great it way more than overcomes there power loss.  This one feat would remove close to 1/2 there power loss.  They'd still be down 1 spell level, and 1 class would be out spell power, but there combat spells come primarily from the wizard class so that's where it would go and they'd be flat out sick in comparison to the single class mage in my games.  Heck they're already better(which is why in future campaigns they wont exist) so I feel no great need ot beat a dead horse and have them get even better.


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## Psiblade (May 19, 2004)

Yes, a sorcerer can take sacred ex. at 17th level (requires 10 knowledge planes which is not a class skill)(costs 20 skill points knowledge planes plus 14 skill points knowledge religion)(total skill points 34). That is a lot of ranks to give up concentration for.

A 17th level sorc should have a max chr of 28 (18 base + 6 cloak +4 bump)which is still only 12 attempts. That is a long way to go to get a divine metamagic persistent spell. I would rather use 4 divine metamagic (empower). Regarding quicken, remember any metamagic for spontaneous spells is a full round action.

I do not play epic levels, but a charisma of 40!!! The DC's from your spells would be at least +25 anyway. Our high level games are around 15th level, so I will admit I do not know what breaks for epic.

-Psiblade


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## Olive (May 19, 2004)

Well, got it today.

I'm a bit disappointed in the section about gods, that could have been both longer and much cooler. The relics are cool. Some nice feats. I thought there were more interesting PrCs in CW, and the sheer number of reprints is a bit lame. Nice art! Some cool spells too. The stuff about where the dead go etc. has given me some good ideas, and might force me to figure out my campaigns ideas. Those are the first impressions at least.

Over all, I think that CW will see more use, but there's definitely stuff in this book I'm use as well.

It does need some errata though. There's the p121 'check toee' thing, and spell _dragon breath_ needsa material component. What else ahve people noticed? I was thinking we should do a mass email to customer service requesting errata for the problems...


----------



## Marshall (May 19, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Yeah well I guess its campaign style dependent and all that but in my games the mystic theurge breadth is so great it way more than overcomes there power loss.




You're the first person I've seen that has actually played the class claim that it was comparable to a straight caster, let alone overpowered.



> This one feat would remove close to 1/2 there power loss.  They'd still be down 1 spell level, and 1 class would be out spell power, but there combat spells come primarily from the wizard class so that's where it would go and they'd be flat out sick in comparison to the single class mage in my games.  Heck they're already better(which is why in future campaigns they wont exist) so I feel no great need ot beat a dead horse and have them get even better.




Maybe you have a player thats better suited to spellcasters playing the MT?
Tho I agree that PS + MT = Very Nice, you've just spent a feat, which increased the cost of the MT, which should allow the straight caster to gain a different advantage...


----------



## Westwind (May 19, 2004)

Just to clarify about _spikes_ and _brambles_.

They are both in the book.  My previous post was wrong--I somehow missed them skimming through.

They do not appear to be changed (again, don't have DotF with me but I used the spells before).  1 hour/level duration, +10 damage cap, double threat range for _spikes_, +2 attack bonus for _spikes_, +1 for _brambles_.

Does this mean the return of the darkwood mace-wielding Aasimar cleric of Lathander/Pelor with access to the Glory and Sun domains and bead of karma/Persistant Spell buffs?  Probably not.  Buff spells aren't nearly as good with Extend Spell and, frankly, he's just not that fun.


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 19, 2004)

Marshall said:
			
		

> You're the first person I've seen that has actually played the class claim that it was comparable to a straight caster, let alone overpowered.



Side note: My problem with Mystic Theurge & Eldritch Knight, is that both are compared to a normal double classed caster. If you look at either as simply a wizard PrC, I think they both offer a lot of benefit for little cost. 2-3 spell levels for a full BAB and more hp or a whole lot of divine spells.

As for Complete Divine: The PrC's are pulled from all kinds of sources, so it'd be great if you didn't already have the material in question. The 3.5 updates aren't the best.
Still on a cursory glance,  the book appears pretty decent. I just get tired of Cleric PrC's that allow full spell progression and full turning progression, plus other powers.


----------



## Silveras (May 19, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> Well, got it today.
> 
> I'm a bit disappointed in the section about gods, that could have been both longer and much cooler. The relics are cool. Some nice feats. I thought there were more interesting PrCs in CW, and the sheer number of reprints is a bit lame. Nice art! Some cool spells too. The stuff about where the dead go etc. has given me some good ideas, and might force me to figure out my campaigns ideas. Those are the first impressions at least.
> 
> ...




Heh.. I am still awaiting my copy ::grumble:: but, on a related note ... 

I have been putting the MM monsters and spells from various books into Access dbs. As part of the process, I have been e-mailing each errata item to Wizards' customer service as I find them. 

Out of 106 spells in the Book of Exalted Deeds ... 15 e-mails (so far) (15 spells to go)
Complete Warrior: 8 spells, 2 e-mails
Miniatures Handbook: 65 spells, 3 e-mails
Monster Manual: 493 monsters (so far), 20 e-mails (mostly about skills).


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## Staffan (May 19, 2004)

Silveras said:
			
		

> Monster Manual: 493 monsters (so far), 20 e-mails (mostly about skills).



Have you checked synergies? I remember a discussion near when 3e first came out when someone broke down the skills of a mind flayer, and thought it had 2 SP too many... until they noticed that Bluff gave a +2 bonus to Intimidate, which was included. It's an easy thing to miss.


----------



## Olive (May 20, 2004)

Silveras said:
			
		

> I have been putting the MM monsters and spells from various books into Access dbs. As part of the process, I have been e-mailing each errata item to Wizards' customer service as I find them.




Do you have copiues of the errata? Or the emails, or the databases? And would you like to send them to me?


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## Silveras (May 20, 2004)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Have you checked synergies? I remember a discussion near when 3e first came out when someone broke down the skills of a mind flayer, and thought it had 2 SP too many... until they noticed that Bluff gave a +2 bonus to Intimidate, which was included. It's an easy thing to miss.




Yes, I accounted for synergies. I double-check before each e-mail, because I hate looking like an idiot for something so obvious. There are probably a few that I missed because I wanted to be sure. Things like aquatic creatures that have a +8 racial Swim bonus and a Strength of 16 (+3), wear no armor, and have a Swim listing of +3 I sent in. If I could not identify what I thought was wrong (a factor missed, or one counted twice), I held off. 

As a side comment, reverse-engineering the monster entries is quite education in terms of understanding how some rules fit together. And, in general, the system works - almost every monster follows almost every rule accurately. There are surprisingly few errors considering how much material there is and how many numbers inter-relate. 

On Topic: 
My copy of Complete Divine arrived today. 

Regarding the Practiced Spellcaster feat. 
This feat seems fine to me. It boosts your spellcaster level for spell _effects_ *only*, not _access_, by up to +4 (capped at your character level/HD). 

It was acknowledged during the Q&A period of "what's changing in 3.5" before its release that the designers know multi-classed spellcasters get shafted. Other character functions (saves, BAB, hp) combine across classes, but not spellcasting. While a spellcaster should certainly lose *some* spellcasting potency by multi-classing, the way _everything_ ties to the same much-reduced Caster level was a problem. 

That was the rationale for the creation of Prestige Classes that let multi-classed casters "keep up": Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge. Monte Cook, in the book of Hallowed Might, took a similar approach in the Hallowed Mage Prestige Class. 

Unearthed Arcana has the variant "Magic Effect Rating", which introduces a stat (MER) that all classes contribute to, to some degree. This stat replaces Caster Level for range, duration, creatures effected, penetrating spell resistance, and dispel checks. 

The feat is one possible choice in addressing this problem; the PrCs are another, and the variant is a third. All are optional, and no one *has* to use any of them, really.


----------



## Silveras (May 20, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> Do you have copiues of the errata? Or the emails, or the databases? And would you like to send them to me?




I am reluctant to share the dbs because they have much content that is not Open. The spells db started as all Open, but I have started adding the spells from WotC books. The monsters db is part of my toolkit for laptop DMing, and is very much a work-in-progress.


----------



## Thanee (May 20, 2004)

About Practiced Spellcaster. Is this feat bound to one spellcasting class, or does it work for all?

Concrete example: If a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge picks up Practiced Spellcaster, does he have to decide, whether his cleric level stacks on top of his wizard level or vice versa or do they both mutually stack with each other to determine caster level?

Bye
Thanee


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## Silveras (May 20, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> About Practiced Spellcaster. Is this feat bound to one spellcasting class, or does it work for all?
> 
> Concrete example: If a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge picks up Practiced Spellcaster, does he have to decide, whether his cleric level stacks on top of his wizard level or vice versa or do they both mutually stack with each other to determine caster level?
> 
> ...




It applies to a specific class each time you take it, and must apply to a different class each time. 

So the C/W/MT in your example (say 5/5/2, for total of 12 Char levels) is already a 7/7 in terms of spell ability. Taking the feat once, s/he would be 11/7 OR 7/11 for effects, dispel, and penetrating SR, but still 7/7 in terms of the spells available. Taking the feat twice would be 11/11 for effects penetrating Spell Resistance, but still 7/7 in terms of how many spells and what levels they are.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (May 20, 2004)

Marshall said:
			
		

> You're the first person I've seen that has actually played the class claim that it was comparable to a straight caster, let alone overpowered.




I've never met anyone who played the class for more than a couple levels say anything other than that they are overpowered.  I freely admit my experiences may not be the norm etc.  But for us when the character was 1st made he strted out as a cleric, he gained 2 more levels in cleric doing fairly well all the way.  He had a low str compared to the other cleric since his int matered but otherwise fairly good, and heck the high int gave him a good amount of skill points so he rocked in things like diplomacy.  When he pcked up wizard maybe he was a bit weaker but at these levels it really doesn't make much of a difference, though when he hit wizard level 2 and 3 he did seema smidge subpar.  Once he picked up MT he started off staying a smidge unperpowerd and got maybbe a bit weaker in the 1st level or 2, but after the 4th level of MT he easily equaled the single classed casters, and now here at 15th level with 9 levels of MT he just rules.  And this is a bad level for him since the single classed just got 8th level spells and he still only has 6th level.  

The thing is when it comes to his wizard magic he's just not that much weaker than the singe classed wizard(actually wizard/loremaster)  Yeah right now he's down 2 spell levels but hey most his spells hit almost as hard, so sure in a toe to toe battle or a really combat heavy game he might be coming up short.  But overall he helps the party far more than either the cleric or the wizard/loremaster does.


----------



## Saeviomagy (May 20, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> The thing is when it comes to his wizard magic he's just not that much weaker than the singe classed wizard(actually wizard/loremaster)  Yeah right now he's down 2 spell levels but hey most his spells hit almost as hard, so sure in a toe to toe battle or a really combat heavy game he might be coming up short.  But overall he helps the party far more than either the cleric or the wizard/loremaster does.




Have you LOOKED at the 8th level spells compared with those at 6th?

I'm thinking your cleric and wizard players are not playing to their strengths. Recently our cleric decided that a single level of lost casting ability constituted a total waste of his character, and he's not even got any clerics to compare himself with. He just looked at the list and said "what have I done?". And he was only losing a single level of spells.

I can only imagine that your cleric, wizard and MyT cannot see past 'damage dealt' in terms of effective spells.


----------



## Kodiakc (May 20, 2004)

*stormlord*

My bloody store hasnt gotten the CD yet 
so if anyone has time and doesnt care   

would ya post the stormlord info please i no longer have the 
old book it use to be in and i read on 1 of the posts that the class has changed 

thinking about taking my character that route if its changed for the better 

thanks!


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## Count Arioch the 28t (May 20, 2004)

Considering what each and every new level of spells brings, and the fact that my testing shows otherwise, I won't beleive that the MyTh is anything more than underpowered, unless your anecdotal evidence is enough to counter my hours of actualy gameplay experience.

Praticed spellcaster would be a good feat for them, if I wasn't using the Magic Ratings variant from UA.  Now, a MyTh can somewhat keep up in a group in my campaign.


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## Westwind (May 20, 2004)

Let's not get too far off topic here with the MyTh commentary.  I'm sure the answer will end up being YMMV anyway.

Here are the Stormlord's prereqs:

Fort +4
Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (any spear or javelin)
Patron: Talos
Must have been hit by lightning (magical or mundane) and survived

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird Disguise in on their spell list?  I play FR sometimes and I don't remember that being part of Talos' portfolio.

Mid BAB, good Fort and Will saves
Full spellcasting progression
1 enchanced javelins (any javelin thrown gains a magic bonus) +1, resist electricity 5
2 shock weapon (spears and javelins only)
3 storm walk (movement unaffected by weather)
4 resist electricity 10
5 thundering weapon (spear and javelins, stacks with shock weapon)
6 storm ride (_fly_ during storms), enchanced javelins +2
7 resist electricity 15
8 shocking burst weapon (you guessed it, spears and javelins only)
9 immune to electricity, javelins +3
10 elemental conflagration (called _storm of elemental fury_ in the text, 1/day can cast _storm of elemental fury_ as a 17th-level cleric, which will need an errata since it's a Druid spell so assume they mean 17th-level Druid)  The spell is in the book


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## Thanee (May 20, 2004)

Silveras said:
			
		

> It applies to a specific class each time you take it, and must apply to a different class each time.




That's what I thought. Thank you!

Still, our MT will be very happy about that. 

Having some spells (probably the wizard side for obvious reasons) at least, that do _something_ can't hurt. As a 7th level char doing 6 damage per round with magic missile isn't much fun! 

Bye
Thanee


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## Kodiakc (May 20, 2004)

*stormlord*

ahh thanks Westwind I appreciate it !


----------



## smileybob1 (May 20, 2004)

could anyone tell me how the Holy Liberator's Remove Fatigue works.  can he use it at will, does it have any other affect other than the obvious (ie does it affect exhaustion).

also how many skill points does the Holy Liberator get at each level


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## (Psi)SeveredHead (May 20, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> Fort +4
> Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (any spear or javelin)
> Patron: Talos



Those are weird pre-reqs for a spellcasting class. Are you sure you're not misisng "must be able to cast 3rd-level divine spells" or something like that?

They do know a Clr1/Fighter1 can take that, right? (3rd-level if not human.)


----------



## AdmundfortGeographer (May 20, 2004)

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
			
		

> Those are weird pre-reqs for a spellcasting class. Are you sure you're not misisng "must be able to cast 3rd-level divine spells" or something like that?




Yes, as a matter of fact he did not list the complete list.  Here is the complete list of requirements:

*BAB*: Fort +4.
*Feats*: Endurance, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (any spear or javelin).
*Spells*: Able to cast 3rd-level divine spells.
*Patron*: Talos.
*Special*: The character must have been hit by a bolt of lightning, whether a natural bolt or one created by magic and survived.


Regards,
Eric Anondson


----------



## Melkantur (May 21, 2004)

*completely horrid*

no, this is a terrible release.

I have one last Relic to add Chapter Four.
Tome of Utter Futility.
Reader must worship WotC. Strong Incompetence, Crafter Level: Novice. Feat: Craft Previously released material. Price $30+tax. Cost yet another bad XP.

all these unnecessary power up feats (Divine Metamagic) are awful for the game and awful for dwarves and 1/2 orcs.  

Everyone, from now on, please play 12-14 charisma human clerics of Pelor only.  He has his own Prestige Class, no racial charisma penalty.  It's one of the last newest great twinks out there for Vanilla humans clerics who play 12,12,12,12,14,12 characters   

this book will wreck campaigns, and unbalance clerics of different deities and races.  in a word, it's a bomb.


----------



## Olive (May 21, 2004)

Melkantur said:
			
		

> no, this is a terrible release.




Overreact much? The radient sevent will never see use in my game, and not because it's overpowered. I don't use the greyhawk deities.

One feat (divine metamagic) won't wreck the game. In fact nothing in here, will wreck the game unless the DM lets it.


----------



## Hertay (May 21, 2004)

*Miasma*

What about Miasma spell...
Have they fixed it?


----------



## Silveras (May 21, 2004)

Well, I found my first errata item for CD. The "Infestation of Maggots" spell is listed twice under "New Druid Spells", once at 3rd level and once at 4th level. 

General Observation: 
Some spells are repeated, but slightly modified, from recent books. 

The BoED had the spell Winged Mount, which gave a Paladin's mount feathered wings and a fly speed. The spell is in CD, but is now available to both Blackguards and Paladins. 

The Visage of the Deity spells are noted to be revisions of the Aspect of the Deity spells that were in Defenders of the Faith. The Sidebar urges that we use the new versions. BUT... the same spells were revised in BOED; and they are not the same. Some of the differences are easy to work with ... variable effects based on the alignment of the caster. However, other effects are not. 

The Glory domain, originally in Defenders of the Faith, is revised differently in both CD and BoED. BoED revises the spells from DotF and adds more new spells from that book; CD revises the new spells that were in DotF.

The Bolt of Glory spell, originally in DotF and part of the Glory domain, is revised differently in the two books. 

The Community Domain, from both DotF and DDG, is revised differently in both books. I can sort-of understand why the 4th level spells are different: BoED adds a new one at that point. But both versions use a core 8th level spell that are different: Sympathy in BoED and Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion in CD.


----------



## MerricB (May 21, 2004)

Actually, having two variants of the same domain could be regarded as a feature. It doesn't bother me overmuch. 

Cheers!


----------



## Alzrius (May 21, 2004)

I haven't read all of this thread, so if this question was asked and answered already, I apologize in advance.

Can anyone tell me why, in Chapter 6, in the "The Final Destination" section, it talks about every Outer Plane...except Gehenna? It should be on page 127, between Hades and the Nine Hells, but it isn't there. Why is that? It's not because no members of the "core" D&D pantheon live there...none of them live in Limbo, but that got a listing.

Thanks!


----------



## Nightfall (May 21, 2004)

No idea Al, I'm still confused why they didn't list the Abyss either.


----------



## Alzrius (May 21, 2004)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> No idea Al, I'm still confused why they didn't list the Abyss either.




...but the Abyss _is_ listed.


----------



## Nightfall (May 21, 2004)

Really? Huh. I must have missed it when I skimmed it. Sorry Al.


----------



## Pants (May 21, 2004)

For those interested, Andy Collins explained some of the reasons for the 'poor editing' in recent releases (Complete Divine namely):

http://p198.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm1.showMessage?topicID=217.topic


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## Shard O'Glase (May 21, 2004)

I've glanced through the book at the local comic shop and looked at some of the spells and I'm disapointed.  Some broken spells are still in spiked, miasma which we already new about.

Some other spells were put back in without one person there getting there head out of there butt to actually look to see what classes this spell would be best suited for.  But heck its been this way since the begining so why should I expect imporvement.  For example Brain spider is basically a btter veriosn of detect thoughts with some suggestion elements thrown in.  Why in heck is it a general cleric spell at all, and if for some incredibly morinic reasin it actually fits there it certainly should make it on the wiz/sor lists since its basics are found there, and heck it should be on the Bard list as well even though it would be a powerful 6th level spell.

Other spells like I think it was called comet also don't hace a cleric or druid fit.  Lets see conjures a big icy rock and drops it on people heads.  Basically does falling damage on people in a 10' by 10' area, and if people miss there save they can be tripped.  All well and good except that even though its a small area its a area spell and it has no damage caps even if its damage is restricted by ceilings.  Basically it can start anywhere up to 5' per level above the targets, or the ceiling height.  It does 2d6 per 10' it falls with no cap. So lets see at 20th level its a 20d6 area of effect spell and its a 6th level spell.  Now if you play in epic games the damage can keep going up and up.  So lets see a flashy damage spell with no damage cap, yeah yeah cleric spell list that's my first thought.

Sure there were plenty of decent spells but enough spells irritated me that I'm not happy with the spell section.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (May 21, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> For those interested, Andy Collins explained some of the reasons for the 'poor editing' in recent releases (Complete Divine namely):
> 
> http://p198.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm1.showMessage?topicID=217.topic




Ah the ever popular it was there fault not ours excus..explanation.   :\ 


Maybe I'm just grumpy today but why can't someone ever just say hey there was a screw up I'm sorry we'll do our best to make sure it doesn't happen again.  And we've hired some new talented people to address this very issue.


----------



## Silveras (May 21, 2004)

Pants said:
			
		

> For those interested, Andy Collins explained some of the reasons for the 'poor editing' in recent releases (Complete Divine namely):
> 
> http://p198.ezboard.com/fgameschat19968frm1.showMessage?topicID=217.topic




That sounds disturbingly like what happened with the varying quality of the 2nd Edition "Complete XXX" series.


----------



## Silveras (May 21, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Ah the ever popular it was there fault not ours excus..explanation.   :\
> 
> 
> Maybe I'm just grumpy today but why can't someone ever just say hey there was a screw up I'm sorry we'll do our best to make sure it doesn't happen again.  And we've hired some new talented people to address this very issue.




That's pretty much what he did say. After saying 'Wizards relied too much on freelance editors', he goes on to say they have 'put more people on tightening up that aspect'.


----------



## Psiblade (May 21, 2004)

I like a lot of the ideas in the book. However, the poor editing does bother me.   Also, the failure to fix miasma is very irritating. The Radiant Servant of Pelor will not be used in any of the home campaigns because of the lack of the Greyhawk Gods.

The additional divine feats are nice since they make charisma less of a dump stat. We tend to play with 28 points, so you tend to get 6 charisma dwarven clerics running around. Having all of the prestige classes and domains updated to 3.5 and in a hard back is also nice. Several prestige classes are nice like the Seeker and the redone Sacred Fist. I just wish the editing was better. If you have a problem with something (miasma), do not allow it in your game.

-Psiblade


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## Marshall (May 21, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Other spells like I think it was called comet also don't hace a cleric or druid fit.  Lets see conjures a big icy rock and drops it on people heads.  Basically does falling damage on people in a 10' by 10' area, and if people miss there save they can be tripped.  All well and good except that even though its a small area its a area spell and it has no damage caps even if its damage is restricted by ceilings.  Basically it can start anywhere up to 5' per level above the targets, or the ceiling height.  It does 2d6 per 10' it falls with no cap. So lets see at 20th level its a 20d6 area of effect spell and its a 6th level spell.  Now if you play in epic games the damage can keep going up and up.  So lets see a flashy damage spell with no damage cap, yeah yeah cleric spell list that's my first thought.




So how does that spell work with Empower? Does it do 3d6 per ten feet? Can Widen change the AoE? Does Enlarge double the height you can drop it from, and by extension the damage?

Inquiring minds want to know? 

Really, the errata for this book is going to be bigger than DotF was.


----------



## Shard O'Glase (May 21, 2004)

Marshall said:
			
		

> So how does that spell work with Empower? Does it do 3d6 per ten feet? Can Widen change the AoE? Does Enlarge double the height you can drop it from, and by extension the damage?
> 
> Inquiring minds want to know?
> 
> Really, the errata for this book is going to be bigger than DotF was.




I have no flippin idea.  Mechanically I can see no reason why the feats wouldn't work as normal, though I don't think its height is considered part of the range so enlarge wouldn't help.  But thematically it doesn't seem to make much sense that same same rock falling form the same distance for some reason does 50% more damage, and doubling its area of effect should increase the size of the rock and also its weight, which should increase the damage, so widen seems funky.  I'd guess this is one of those well its magic handwaves situations and the feats would work normally.


----------



## Terraism (May 21, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I didn't notice any differences, but I didn't do a side by side comparison.
> 
> I did notice they left a 3.0eism in the text; the reference to having the "blood like sap" ability seemed to refer to wounding as it existed in 3.0 (which I don't have a huge problem with, as I prefer the way they did it in 3.0).





			
				Count Arioch the 28th said:
			
		

> So basically, it still sucks.
> 
> Not surprising, as it seems like most PrCs are a bitn underpowered.



 I'm not sure about it being underpowered. My initial read-through involved a lot of blinking and rereading, to make sure that they _really_ didn't get that ability.  Overall, the Geomancer gets:
  - Two good saves
  - Moderate BAB progression
  - Full caster progression
  - Four minor extraordinary abilities
  - Elimination on multiple (casting) stat dependencies
  - The ability to cast arcane spells in armor with no failure chance
  - Boosted caster level in certain areas (up to +3 in one terrain or +1 in three) for all casting classes.

  I don't see _underpowered_ there. I've been throwing something together, to see what I can come up with... and I find the fellow to be a fairly powerful character. He ends up with "only" a +12 BAB, and slightly better saving throws than, say, a single classes wizard. He _does_ (assuming you put all +1 caster level bonuses to the same class) have the ability to gain access to 19th level spells, with (max possible) 17 levels in casting for one particular class. Additionally, there's the benefit of having a few added buff spells from three levels of a divine class, without worrying about having to have "high" wisdom. The BAB means he's got three attacks, and a handful of buffs can increase that. Being able to cast arcane spells in full plate is pretty useful, too. It's probably not as overpowered as I initially thought it was, but I _definitely_ don't think it's _underpowered_.


----------



## Axegrrl (May 21, 2004)

What's the Temple Raider of Olidimarra like? Other than going from 5 levels to 10, what other changes are there? And do I need to grab this sucker for tomorrow's game, with my TR of <local deity>?


----------



## Wycen (May 22, 2004)

What I want to know is how many books the picture of the horned demon with the paint brush on page 90 has appeared in.


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2004)

Axegrrl said:
			
		

> What's the Temple Raider of Olidimarra like? Other than going from 5 levels to 10, what other changes are there? And do I need to grab this sucker for tomorrow's game, with my TR of <local deity>?




1)trapfiding, trap sense +1
2) sneak +1d6
3) uncanny dodge
4) trap sense +2
5) sneak +2d6
6)Imp Uncanny Dodge
7_ Trap Sense +3
8) sneak +3d6
9) skill mastery
10)luck domain, trap sense +4
Spells like before, cleric BAB, Ref & Will saves.


----------



## Thotas (May 22, 2004)

For those compiling the errata, the spell "Dance of the Unicorn" appears on the cleric spell list, but not on the druid one.  The spell description says it's a druid spell, not a cleric one.


----------



## Axegrrl (May 22, 2004)

Thanks for the Temple Raider update... dunno why they decided they needed to nerf that one. Could you let me know what the entrance requirements are? TIA...


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## Vocenoctum (May 22, 2004)

Axegrrl said:
			
		

> Thanks for the Temple Raider update... dunno why they decided they needed to nerf that one. Could you let me know what the entrance requirements are? TIA...



chaotic, +5 BAB (seems high), disable device, open lock, 4 ranks, search 8 ranks, know (religion)1, must worship Oli and be invited


----------



## Psion (May 22, 2004)

Shard O'Glase said:
			
		

> Ah the ever popular it was there fault not ours excus..explanation.   :\




I'm not too sure how having an anemic editorial staff is not their fault.  

That they are doing something about it is good. It seems to me you are a bit eager to bust people in the chops.


----------



## Axegrrl (May 22, 2004)

Glad they didn't throw anything radically different into the requirements... 'twould sucketh majorly to suddenly not qualify for a PrC. (The Knowledge: Religion is not an issue given the other char. classes in the mix for the PC.) Thanks!


----------



## MerricB (May 22, 2004)

Psion said:
			
		

> I'm not too sure how having an anemic editorial staff is not their fault.




Obviously, they have an anemic editorial staff due to vampires from White Wolf.

It's all White Wolf's fault! 



> That they are doing something about it is good.




Indeed. 

I think the distinction between "It was our fault for hiring inferior freelance editors" and "It was our fault because our inhouse editors are inferior" is important.

Cheers!


----------



## Kobold Avenger (May 22, 2004)

MerricB said:
			
		

> Obviously, they have an anemic editorial staff due to vampires from White Wolf.
> 
> It's all White Wolf's fault!




Didn't they have the whole mysterious "See Page XX" showing up in that book, which happens to plague every White Wolf book...

There's definately some conspiracy here...


----------



## Silveras (May 22, 2004)

Axegrrl said:
			
		

> Glad they didn't throw anything radically different into the requirements... 'twould sucketh majorly to suddenly not qualify for a PrC. (The Knowledge: Religion is not an issue given the other char. classes in the mix for the PC.) Thanks!




In a short sidebar on Sources, they remind everyone that you do not have to replace things which are working fine for your game. 

Of course, they later single out spells and say "you *should* use the new versions", but that is a different matter.


----------



## Trainz (May 22, 2004)

BTW, we adopted the alternate turn undead variant on the spot. It's great. One thing though...

Turn resistance gives you damage reduction versus turn damage equal to turn res. When you inflict 20d6 on a vampire, a few points less is ludicrous, so we house-ruled that the turn resistance bonus is applied to the undead's will save instead.


----------



## Olive (May 23, 2004)

What do people think of the web enhancement. It strikes me that having new, un-updated PrCs in the web enhancement is a wierd idea. Why not have the web enhancement be older prcs and the book new fresh stuff?


----------



## ohGr (May 23, 2004)

The only "new" PrC in the web enhancement is the Moon Guardian, and even that seems to just be a take-off of the Selunite Lycanthrope ability of the Silverstar PrC from _Faith & Pantheons_.  

The other PrCs are either from _Faiths & Pantheons_ (Dweomerkeeper and Nightcloak) or _Defenders of the Faith_ (Master of Shrouds).


----------



## Vocenoctum (May 23, 2004)

Page 98, apparently Garl doesn't like the Hammer in his Gnome Hooked Hammer (pic.)


----------



## Olive (May 23, 2004)

ohGr said:
			
		

> The only "new" PrC in the web enhancement is the Moon Guardian, and even that seems to just be a take-off of the Selunite Lycanthrope ability of the Silverstar PrC from _Faith & Pantheons_.
> 
> The other PrCs are either from _Faiths & Pantheons_ (Dweomerkeeper and Nightcloak) or _Defenders of the Faith_ (Master of Shrouds).




Ah, not being a realms player, I never got F&P, and I knew about master of shrouds... Ah well, even fewer new ideas!


----------



## Silveras (May 27, 2004)

Olive said:
			
		

> Do you have copiues of the errata? Or the emails, or the databases? And would you like to send them to me?




I posted a new thread on the D&D Rules board for the CD errata I have noticed. I will add to it as I find more. IF I have time, I may go back through my e-mails and do the same for Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Warrior.


----------



## Olive (May 27, 2004)

Silveras said:
			
		

> I posted a new thread on the D&D Rules board for the CD errata I have noticed. I will add to it as I find more. IF I have time, I may go back through my e-mails and do the same for Book of Exalted Deeds and Complete Warrior.




http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89368 for those who are itnerested.

Thanks for that. Useful stuff.


----------



## Adan Northgan (May 27, 2004)

Favored Soul, does he have own list of spells or is the same list of the clerig?   
Does Shugenja have own list?  

Talk about changes in those Prc Church Inquisitor and Consecrated Harrier  

I would like to know more on those feats:  
Disciple of the Sun, Divine Spell Power, Improved Smiting, Pious Defense, Pious Soul  
Pious Spellsurge, Sacred Boost, Sanctify Relic.  

Does epic feats or epic prc exist in CD?


----------



## Silveras (May 27, 2004)

Adan Northgan said:
			
		

> Favored Soul, does he have own list of spells or is the same list of the clerig?
> Does Shugenja have own list?
> 
> Talk about changes in those Prc Church Inquisitor and Consecrated Harrier
> ...




Favored Soul selects spells from the full Cleric list. 

The Shugenja has its own list, composed of some Cleric and some Sorcerer/Wizard spells. Each Shugenja has a single element as a specialty, and selects an "Order", so they always learn [1 order spell] + [favored element spells] + [other spells] at any level. The Orders replace the clan-based schools that were in the original version (Oriental Adventures). 

There are Epic feats, and the book talks about Epic progressions in terms of "here's how you should build Epic progressions for Divine-based classes..." There are no new Epic PrCs that I noted. 

The Pious Soul, Pious Spellsurge, and Pious Defense feats all use "Faith Points", which you earn by doing things according to the teachings of your Faith. Frequently quoting the holy books of your god, in character, might be worth 1 faith point for the game session. Spending faith points lets you do things, much like some Action Point variants: don't get hit as badly, hit your enemies harder, or increase the caster level of a spell. These are all set off from other feats in a sidebar, and form a Variant. 

True Believer grants a small benefit to one saving throw per day, but it also allows you to use Relics. 

Sanctify Relic lets you make Relics. A Relic is a magic item that is somewhat more potent than normal magic items, but not as powerful as an Artifact. It has a thematic tie to one religion, and only people who follow that religion can truly use it. Samples are given for the major core deities, sometime more than one per deity. The weapon used by a famous Paladin of Bahamut, for example, might become a relic, and followers of Bahamut might be able to get the benefits of some additional protection from it while fighting in Bahamut's name.


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## Adan Northgan (May 29, 2004)

I would like to know more on those feats: 
Disciple of the Sun, Divine Spell Power and *Improved Smiting *  mainly.  

does  have epic feats in the book? which? does  have some feat that improves the attack in the book??


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## Jolly Giant (May 30, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> I think the Hierophant from the DMG is a good example of a cleric PrC, as is the Thaumaturge. You should have to give up something to enter a cleric PrC, because clerics are already good at everything




I'm running game that is now well into epic levels. The PC cleric entered the Hierophant class as of level 21, because by then he could gain all the cool powers and not give up ANYTHING... Well ok, so he sufferes a small dip in his ability to rebuke undead, but he's never used it very much anyway. You might say he loses out on a bouns Epic feat or two, but that's not quite true; the hierophant can choose any metamagic feat as his granted special ability, so if he wants he can get one epic feat per level for five levels.

There are several classes like that out there; very well balanced at "normal" levels but way too powerful on epic levels...  :\


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## BOZ (May 30, 2004)

Westwind said:
			
		

> No, it's just a table at the end of the chapter giving alignment, domains, favorite weapon and divine rank for non-human deities. Annam, Blidoolpoolp, Callarduran Smoothhands, Deep Sashelas, Diirinka, Eadro, Great Mother, Grolantor, Hiatea, Hruggek, Iallanis, Ilsensine, Kaelthiere, Laduguer, Laogzed, Maglubiyet, Memnor, Merrshaulk, Panzuriel, Sekolah, Semuanya, Shekinester, Skoraeus Stonebones, Sixin, Skerrit, Stronmaus, Surtur, Thrym, and Vaprak.




oh well, that gives us at the CC forums something to work on then.  

so when will this book be available?


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## Silveras (May 30, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> oh well, that gives us at the CC forums something to work on then.
> 
> so when will this book be available?




It has been out for 2 weeks now.


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## BOZ (Jun 1, 2004)

hmm, then our local bookstores have been hiding it along with Dungeon #112.


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