# Why the hate?



## Dykstrav (Jan 9, 2007)

Just something that I've been wondering as I read the message boards...

_"My friend Artie's D&D game in 1983 didn't have anime influences and the greatest video game of all time is pong!"

"teh anime n video games is the next step in RPGS lol if u don't like it stop playing!!!!!!"

"D&D is a tactical simulation game where we essentially play chess with more options. If it's not printed in a rulebook I don't allow it in my games!"_

(Of course I exagerrate, but not by much...)

Why all the incivility? Why do gamers ignore the fact that we're talking about rolling bits of polyhedral plastic that abstract things that cannot exist under the laws of science as we currently understand them? Why does D&D have to be "realistic," emulate anime or video games, or accomodate any style of play under the sun? Why can't it just be fun?

I can understand the occasional disagreement and even the strong point of view. But we can be polite about it... Can't we?


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## Crothian (Jan 9, 2007)

Dykstrav said:
			
		

> But we can be polite about it... Can't we?




For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 9, 2007)

Dykstrav said:
			
		

> Why all the incivility?



I will set your car on fire and shave my name into your dog's coat for daring to ask such a question!


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## replicant2 (Jan 9, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!




I agree. While there have been some minor "edition wars" going on, casualties have been light. Take a surf around the web and you'll find hate galore. This place is Disneyland in comparison.


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## molonel (Jan 9, 2007)

Incivility? Hate?

Hahahahaha!!!

You guys need to see a real flamewar on a forum with REAL trolls on it.

You will return here with a renewed sense of wonder and awe at how polite this place is.

Even _I_ generally don't turn up the heat here, most times, and rather than go weapons free, attempt to be somewhat polite and mature.


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## blargney the second (Jan 9, 2007)

Lots of people experience post-holiday stress or are affected by seasonal affective disorder in January.  It comes out more on the internet both in how people say things and how they interpret things.


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## bento (Jan 9, 2007)

It's because no one else plays the game right, and my own experiences with D&D are disappointing and short-lived affairs. 

Rather than try to improve as a player and DM, I'd rather hang out on boards bashing everyone else's enjoyment.


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## Rothe (Jan 9, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!




I would agree, especially considering its size and the range of D&D topics allowed.  I would amend the above to say one of the most polite D&D message boards.    I don't know what it, is but I haven't seen the penchant for division w.r.t. D&D displayed on message boards related to other RPGs; not that I've tried them all by any means.


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## shilsen (Jan 9, 2007)

Because my imaginary friend can beat up your imaginary friend!


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## JVisgaitis (Jan 9, 2007)

Um, isn't the internet rife with uncivility and hate? If you're looking for rainbows and puppies, go watch My Little Pony or something.


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## thedungeondelver (Jan 9, 2007)

I'm inspired to think of an old SNL skit from the early '90s with Damon Wayans being interviewed by Nora Dunn - she doing a sort of pre "The View" one-woman talkshow hostess, and he as Louis Farrakan.

"People say the Nation of Islam are hatemongers.  That we promogulate hatred of other races and present a hateful attitude.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  And I _hate_ that."


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## Graf (Jan 9, 2007)

If people post on the boards then they are giving up a lot of more normal activies.
I.e. you're basically fairly intense about the game if you post here.

PLUS
Generally people aren't analytical. They have an opinion they come here to get affirmation. Of course someone else doesn't have that opinion; often one or both parties can't think do much logical thinking.
So you see lots of circular arguements, people repeating themselves, people restating the other person's arguement into something it wasn't so they can "win".

The inclivity is a fundimental side effect of the sort of people the internet attracts. 

In the aggrigate you'll have lots of people who are poorly adjusted in real life and seeking to vent their frustrations; this is, of course, much healthier than other alternatives. But it can make the boards a bit odd from time to time. Especially if someone with negativity to burn latches on to a thread you're participating in.


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## haakon1 (Jan 9, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!




I concur.  Would you like some tea, sir?


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## BroccoliRage (Jan 9, 2007)

Graf said:
			
		

> If people post on the boards then they are giving up a lot of more normal activies.
> I.e. you're basically fairly intense about the game if you post here.
> 
> PLUS
> ...




Bravo! Well written, and stating my opinions, indeed. The only part I disagree with is 'giving up normal activities'. I'm sure lots of folks have extra curricular activities they attend, and still post here. This may be my own inference, but an implication of that part of your post seemed to imply that everyone here lacked a social life. If that's my own inference, I apologize. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, here.

Basically, during the winter, my internet activity spikes. Once summer comes along, I'm out enjoying life. I start school this fall, too. MY gaming tends to fal off a little, too, as noone is really interested in going outside to drive anywhere. The winter is my writing/netsurfing/beer season.  I'm probably not alone in this.

But otherwise, I agree with everything you said, entirely.


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## thedungeondelver (Jan 9, 2007)

haakon1 said:
			
		

> I concur.  Would you like some tea, sir?





Blarrr!  Tea is overhyped leaf-steeped crap!  Hot water is still loved by all people who drink hot beverages!


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## BroccoliRage (Jan 9, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Blarrr!  Tea is overhyped leaf-steeped crap!  Hot water is still loved by all people who drink hot beverages!





Hot water is the one true beverage, newbie pissants!!!!


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## thedungeondelver (Jan 9, 2007)

BroccoliRage said:
			
		

> Hot water is the one true beverage, newbie pissants!!!!





my hat of tea for 2 know no limit


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## BroccoliRage (Jan 9, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> my hat of tea for 2 know no limit





I remember when that quote originated here, I laughed so hard. It's interesting to see that the comedy of it has survived for almost a year now 

Hot water no know limit!


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## Treebore (Jan 9, 2007)

I haven't really seen "hate" on these boards. That is far too strong a word. I think if we help each other to control ourselves we'll find these boards even better.

So when we see people "losing it", instead of jumping in and insult them further, just post "Hey guys, your losing it. Take some time off, take some deep breathes, cool down. Come back when your confident that you can have a discussion rather than a fight. Fighting is not what these boards, or our hobby, is about."

I mean we are all here because we love this game, irregardless of edition we all play some variant of D&D, and I would think we do it for fun. So why come here and lose our tempers and get ticked off?

I have been guilty of it in the past. I have been making a concerted effort to remember we all love this game, and just because we differ in our opinions about which rules work or not, doesn't change the fundamental fact we all love playing this particular RPG.

So why should I be angry with anyone?

So that is why I try my best to avoid "arguing". I actually find it more of a challenge to debate, which is formallized arguing with manners required.

So maybe more of us should adopt my rule of debate. If I am getting the point I wouldn't be willing to sit down with the people I am debating with and share a meal at the next GenCon, then I need to back out of the argument. So I do. I'll go a day or two without posting in that particular thread until I am confident I can go back to it and be civil.

I think we should start policing ourselves and help each other to do that. If people get so hung up on arguing that they can't stop, even when asked, then the mods can step in and ban them for a while. Force them to calm down and learn to be civil. If they can't learn, then they get banned.

This may be a 3E board, but that doesn't mean we should exclude people who play another edition or iteration. The uniting "force" of this board, and any D&D board, is our love for the game. Not the incarnation of it that we play.


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## BroccoliRage (Jan 9, 2007)

Treebore said:
			
		

> I haven't really seen "hate" on these boards. That is far too strong a word. I think if we help each other to control ourselves we'll find these boards even better.
> 
> So when we see people "losing it", instead of jumping in and insult them further, just post "Hey guys, your losing it. Take some time off, take some deep breathes, cool down. Come back when your confident that you can have a discussion rather than a fight. Fighting is not what these boards, or our hobby, is about."
> 
> ...





hmmm. also valid.


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## jdrakeh (Jan 9, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!




Agreed 100%. I think you have a few groups of people who try really hard to turn it into the Wild West from time to time, but I've never seen these attempts at fanning the flames come to fruition.

[Edit: While making some adjustments to my profile, I realized that I have over 20 people on my IL. I guess it's possible that ENWorld merely _seems_ friendly to me because I use the "Ignore Poster" button like a SAW gunner uses bullets. ]


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## Arashi Ravenblade (Jan 9, 2007)

to avoid fighting i say my peace and usually dont check back (which is why ive been a memeber since 2003 and dont even have 200 posts). ive said some jerky things in the past, though most might not remember them (here or at circvus Maximus) but i just say whatever i have to say and leave. cause if i come back and someone has insulted my opinion i tend to get a little angry and lash back.


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## Edena_of_Neith (Jan 9, 2007)

It can *just be fun.*
  If I am DM, and I can do my job at all, I will endeavor to my best to make it so it can *just be fun.*
  If I am a player, and there is not *just be fun* there, I talk with my DM, and we try to arrange things so that the *just be fun* is back.

  After all, the DM is my FRIEND.  He wants me to *just have fun.*
  If I am DM, I am the FRIEND of my players.  And naturally I want them to *just have fun.*

  It is really that simple.  Follow that core guideline, and you can break through all the obstacles and problems, all the interpersonal communication bickers, all the nonsense, and you can *just have fun.*

  However, even *fun* requires - effort.  Nothing comes for free.  If you are DM do not try, and/or if you as a player do not try, you will not *just have fun.*  
  Put in the effort, and the reward will come.  That's how it is.  That's how it always will be.  Make your players appreciate that, and everything else will follow.


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## Kae'Yoss (Jan 9, 2007)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> Agreed 100%. I think you have a few groups of people who try really hard to turn it into the Wild West from time to time, but I've never seen these attempts at fanning the flames come to fruition.
> 
> [Edit: While making some adjustments to my profile, I realized that I have over 20 people on my IL. I guess it's possible that ENWorld merely _seems_ friendly to me because I use the "Ignore Poster" button like a SAW gunner uses bullets. ]




The Ignore List is the most useful feature here. EN World may be the most civil place around, but it still has its share of haters and flamers and whatever. Once you ignore them, it's quite okay.

I have to say to its defense, though: My ignore list over at the Wizards boards is much bigger.


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## diaglo (Jan 9, 2007)

Dykstrav said:
			
		

> But we can be polite about it... Can't we?



if we are polite people normally.

some of us aren't. myself included.

so i tend to ignore those with whom i don't wish to discuss topics. that is the best i can do to be polite.

have a nice day.


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## WizarDru (Jan 9, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!





Quite honestly, it used to be better, IMHO.  ENworld is a much more negative place than it was 7 years ago.  It's still one of the best and most civil public forums of it's size and kind, but I find that it degenerates into the same arguments (often by and between the same people) much more often than it once did.


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## Quasqueton (Jan 9, 2007)

> For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!



When someone comes and pees in our sandbox, pointing out that other sandboxes have deficate, drug needles, and fire ants doesn't make me more accepting of the pee.

Quasqueton


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## ShinHakkaider (Jan 9, 2007)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> [Edit: While making some adjustments to my profile, I realized that I have over 20 people on my IL. I guess it's possible that ENWorld merely _seems_ friendly to me because I use the "Ignore Poster" button like a SAW gunner uses bullets. ]




I also have a large amount of people in my ignore list. 
It's one of the reasons that I'm able to keep coming back here. 

Irony of this post would be if I were one of the people on jdrakeh's IL.


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## Umbran (Jan 9, 2007)

Dykstrav said:
			
		

> _"My friend Artie's D&D game in 1983 didn't have anime influences and the greatest video game of all time is pong!"
> 
> "teh anime n video games is the next step in RPGS lol if u don't like it stop playing!!!!!!"
> 
> ...




Well, here's part of it.  Two out of your three examples _are civil_.  If your bar of civility is set so high that a statement of personal opinion or preference is unvicil, yes, you'll see a lot of it around.


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## Fifth Element (Jan 9, 2007)

Treebore said:
			
		

> Fighting is not what these boards, _or our hobby_, is about.




Tell that to the orcs. They keep trying to kill my characters.


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## Wormwood (Jan 9, 2007)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> Quite honestly, it used to be better, IMHO.  ENworld is a much more negative place than it was 7 years ago.  It's still one of the best and most civil public forums of it's size and kind, but I find that it degenerates into the same arguments (often by and between the same people) much more often than it once did.




I was never a 'power poster' around here, but ENWorld has had a proud place in my bookmarks since early 2000. 

But 'more negative than 7 years ago' seems a little much. Remember the days before "no politics, no religion' rules enforced the forums? It was brutal, with flame wars and multiple thread locks per day (many of them involving myself, I'm afraid). 

That said, I otherwise agree with your assessment that the forums have become steadily negative over the past year or so. I rarely visit any more, and that mood is the main reason why not.


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## tx7321 (Jan 9, 2007)

I find ENworld a very friendly place by comparison.  And I agree with Treebore 100%...lets remind each other to be polite.  And perhaps try skipping over threads that don't interest you or those that will get you to loose your cool; likely someone else will agrue your point anyway.


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## thedungeondelver (Jan 9, 2007)

Wormwood I so stole your avatar.

And for that, I say "Thanks a lot."


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## Gundark (Jan 9, 2007)

Crothian said:
			
		

> For the most part this is one of the most polite message boards anywhere!!




QFT


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## Rothe (Jan 9, 2007)

jdrakeh said:
			
		

> ...[Edit: While making some adjustments to my profile, I realized that I have over 20 people on my IL. I guess it's possible that ENWorld merely _seems_ friendly to me because I use the "Ignore Poster" button like a SAW gunner uses bullets. ]




Wow, that works really well.  Hate be gone.


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## Desdichado (Jan 9, 2007)

replicant2 said:
			
		

> I agree. While there have been some minor "edition wars" going on, casualties have been light. Take a surf around the web and you'll find hate galore. This place is Disneyland in comparison.



I was just at DisneyWorld a month or so ago.  Almost got into a fight with some line jumper.


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## Desdichado (Jan 9, 2007)

BroccoliRage said:
			
		

> I remember when that quote originated here, I laughed so hard. It's interesting to see that the comedy of it has survived for almost a year now
> 
> Hot water no know limit!



Uhhh.... what?

That originated on rpg.net.  Probably closer to five years ago now, not one.


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## Henry (Jan 9, 2007)

thedungeondelver said:
			
		

> Blarrr!  Tea is overhyped leaf-steeped crap!  Hot water is still loved by all people who drink hot beverages!




Hurr. Gar like Earl Grey. Gar no like Green Tea. Green Tea is for foreigner, not gentlemen.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jan 9, 2007)

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> Tell that to the orcs. They keep trying to kill my characters.



If they spoke Orcish, they'd know the orcs were just trying to get them to play their small press indie RPG.


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## jdrakeh (Jan 9, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> Irony of this post would be if I were one of the people on jdrakeh's IL.




All joking aside, I'm actually very selective about who goes on my ignore list. Merely because I disagree with someone doesn't mean that they get ignored. It's primarily reserved for people who have an established trend of trolling the forums here. If somebody's signal to noise ratio is roughly 1:4, they're probably on the list.


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## Mark CMG (Jan 9, 2007)

Dykstrav said:
			
		

> Why all the incivility?






It's not so bad round here.  I think sometimes it seems that way because people discourage posting when you agree with something which produces a skewed degree of posts that might seem contentious to the OP.  I'm a big fan of the "I agree and . . ." posts and posts that direct people (often by linking) to helpful or supplemental information germaine to a subject under discussion.  It helps take the edge off of the multitude of differing points of views (often posed as disagreements rather than as variations) on subjects with wide swaths of grey area to be explored.


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## Kae'Yoss (Jan 10, 2007)

ShinHakkaider said:
			
		

> I also have a large amount of people in my ignore list.
> It's one of the reasons that I'm able to keep coming back here.
> 
> Irony of this post would be if I were one of the people on jdrakeh's IL.




Did anyone just say something?


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## Anand (Jan 10, 2007)

Wanna see hate? Just check Youtube comments...


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## The_Gneech (Jan 10, 2007)

This board is made of _LOVE AND PEACE! LOVE AND PEACE! LOVE AND PEACE!_

Oh, crud, I made an anime reference. Now people will hate me!  

Oh well. ENWorld is still awesome!

-The Gneech


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## BroccoliRage (Jan 10, 2007)

J-Dawg said:
			
		

> Uhhh.... what?
> 
> That originated on rpg.net.  Probably closer to five years ago now, not one.




The first time I ever saw it was here, and posted as a genuine sentiment.

If it occured before then...

Ah, hell. Does it really matter? The first time I saw it was here, and it looked real enough to me. I laughed then. I'll continue to laugh.


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## Piratecat (Jan 10, 2007)

Moved to Meta.


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## nerfherder (Jan 10, 2007)

diaglo said:
			
		

> if we are polite people normally.
> 
> some of us aren't. myself included.
> 
> ...



You forgot the "plonk!"


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