# DMG Nentir Valley



## Tellerve (Aug 17, 2008)

I just started a campaign of 4e in the Nentir Valley, a la Fallcrest, Keep on the Shadowfell etc etc.  I'm not going to run Keep and that lot because of one the players is also in another game I get to actually play in and that DM is using them.

So, I was looking at the Scales of War campaign and I'm wondering if this world is supposed to be part of the same world.  Is this just a generic world or some throwback to Greyhawk?  It doesn't remind me of Greyhawk, but then I really never did enough there to know the places well enough.  I'm really wondering as I'm liking the newest Scales of War adventure, Bordin's Watch and think it'll work for me in terms of something my characters can do in a few levels.  However, I'm not sure where to put it in "my world".  I was thinking of having the Elsir Vale be somewhere down south of Nentir Valley and be more or less done with it.

Just hoping that perhaps someone knows more what is going on with Wizards and their hodgepodge generic world.

Thanks,

Tellerve


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## ObsidianCrane (Aug 17, 2008)

Scales of War is a generic campaign, however that said it is based on an existing Greyhawk module.

It appears they plan to support the whole setting they are building through the campaign and Dragon supplements. Rescue at Rivenroar gives one part of the map, the heart of the Vale. Brodin's Watch gives a bit of the map (sadly not connected to the Rescue at Rivenroar one) that is further west and shows the source of the Elisir River. It also details the city of Overlook, and gives a few other locations that are relevant to the adventure essentially expanding the world a bit, but leaving some blanks for the DM to fill in I guess.

(Though I'm not a fan of such blank spots.)


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## RichGreen (Aug 17, 2008)

Cailte said:


> Scales of War is a generic campaign, however that said it is based on an existing Greyhawk module.



Actually, Red Hand of Doom was a generic D&D module that was originally intended to be a Forgotten Realms module. If you compare the map of Elsir Vale to Channath Vale in the Shining South, you'll see that it matches although the names of the towns and geographical features have been changed. 

Cheers


Richard


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## ObsidianCrane (Aug 17, 2008)

I sit corrected. At least that means its possible to get a fairly complete map.

I've largely ignored the official settings for the life of 3.X so I was taking the word of someone who in theory knew better.


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## JadeKnife (Jan 7, 2009)

*Larger Elsir vale Map*

I know this is a little late, but you can find an expanded map of the whole vale and how it connects to Overlook in the old Red Hand of Doom adventure.  The map is at 

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rhod_maps/95679.jpg

This is under Wizards Map Gallery page.  Hope it helps others.


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## Diceboxisfull (Jan 7, 2009)

In my group, one of the other players is DM'ing the H1, H2, etc modules and I am DM'ing SoW- we had just such a debate this past weekend.

I think "The King's Road" runs through both of them so it would imply that they are at least somewhat geographically related.  We looked for a definitive answer for nearly 30 minutes and finally just decided that Elsir Vale was SW of Nentir Vale down the King's Road for world continuity purposes.

Thanks for posting the map Jade, this will really clear things up!


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## CapnZapp (Jan 9, 2009)

There are several sloppy design mistakes in the Scales of War (though nothing a DM can't fix).

The worst must surely be that this 4E campaign is based on an adventure, RHOD, whose primary suggested location when used with Forgotten Realms, _has been wiped off the map_!

That is, if you ran RHOD in Greyhawk or Eberron as instructed, you're fine (I guess, I actually have no idea).

But if you ran it for the obviously best fit (just compare Elsir Vale to 3E Channath Vale and you'll see what I mean), you're basically screwed if you then wish to start up Scales of War for your 4E game.

*Because then there is no Elsir Vale!* That spellscarring has obliterated the entire Channath Vale and everything around it for hundreds of leagues!

As I said, this isn't something a DM couldnt fix. But it sure would have been nice if Wizards didn't force us to say "uh, you know Elsir Vale right, well, it never was in the south, close to Shining Sea... instead, uh, it has always been located here instead..."

Personally, I'm running Elsir Vale in Channath Vale with 4E rules but with 3E geography. This will possibly get difficult if the players level up enough to get any insight into the mix of new and old gods, but that's a later headache.

Nevertheless, thank you _so much_ Wizards for both wrecking and using this campaign location at the same time..!


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## gtoasnt3 (Jan 9, 2009)

In some small way, I am grateful to WOTC for giving us products that can be placed in any world... even a world created by the DM.  RHOD was my parties favorite published adventure to date.  We dropped it right into our custom world without the PC's feeling like it didn't belong.  

I'm sure that I could have placed the Scales of War (occurs about 100 years after the RHOD was stopped) into Eberron, FR, or Greyhawk.  It's a classic set of small towns and a few large walled communities in a temperate vale.  I would change the name of the towns if I had to, but probably wouldn't in this case.


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## heregon (Jan 13, 2009)

JadeKnife said:


> I know this is a little late, but you can find an expanded map of the whole vale and how it connects to Overlook in the old Red Hand of Doom adventure.  The map is at
> 
> http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/rhod_maps/95679.jpg
> 
> This is under Wizards Map Gallery page.  Hope it helps others.




Overlook is just west of the original RHoD Elsir Vale map, but have they released a map connecting Brindol and Overlook? I've been following the SoW path and Wizards closely but might have missed something.

I'm surprised more people haven't connected the Elsir and Nentir Valleys together, especially with the Scales of War path kicking off. RHoD was the last 3.5 adventure I ran before switching to 4th ed and so have situated the Nentir about 90 miles east of the Elsir valley, giving me enough of a buffer to accomodate any new sites the adventure path uncovers

I'd be interested to hear what other people have done in their own campaigns, or what seems like a loose end from a player's perspective in RHoD.


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## CapnZapp (Jan 13, 2009)

I can understand the confusion.

This is the original map the first (RHOD) Elsir Vale was based on:






Most significantly, look at the river.

River Shaar starts out a very long way from the Vale, in the Great Rift. Then it flows west, until it reaches Lake Lhespen. Somewhere there it changes name, to River Talar, which continues its westward flow through The Misty Vale. Outside this small section of the map it enters the Shining Sea above the coast of Lapaliiya, south of a city called Sheirtalar. The mouth of the river is almost one thousand miles west of its origins somewhere of the Riftlake.

The only significant changes between Channath Vale and Elsir Vale is that the city of Lhesper has moved into the swamp, to become the ruins of Rhest. The city of Khormul has disappeared, and a fork of the river have been added to create Skull Gorge. In every other major way, *the maps are identical*.

River Shaar -> The Stonewash
River Channath/Talar -> Elsir River
Lake Lhespen -> Lake Rhestin
Lhespenbog -> The Blackfens
Channathwood -> Marth Forest
The Misty Vale -> The Westdeep
Rathgaunt Hills -> Giantshield Mts (spelled Giant's Shield in 4E)
The Wyrmbones -> Wyrmsmoke Mts
The North Hills -> Wyvernwatch Mts
Bandit Wastes -> The Thornwaste
Channathgate City -> Dennovar
Rethmar City -> Brindol

The 4E Scales of War reuses this same campaign location (explicitly referring to Red Hand of Doom). 

However, for no immediately discernible reason, *they have reversed the flow of the river*. 

And looking at the map in Bordrin's Watch, I'm flabbergasted to see that they have cut off the river at the Dun Hills (a mountain range not part of the 3E Elsir Vale, now reintroduced as "Stonehome Mountains").

(If you can present another reason for these changes than pure incompetence, that WotC doesn't care for continuity even when they say they're reusing an old campaign location, I would be relieved to hear it.)

To return back on (the threadjacked) topic, the geographical feature missing in between the Scales of War maps (the one in Rivenroar and the one in Bordrin's Watch) is the Wyrmsmoke Mountains. Or, on the above map, the Wyrmbones. (On the Rivenroar map, you can actually see the beginning of this mountain range cut off at the western edge of the map).

To return back on the _original_ topic , if Elsir Vale generally follows the (3E) Forgotten Realms topography to the east, you would expect to find a big forest and some open land leading up to a sudden rise in the land. I don't have the DMG Nentir map in front of me, but it doesn't seem unreasonable to substitute the city of Three Swords for Fallcrest, seeing it too sports a cliffside as its major geographical feature.

Hope this helps to clear up the lingering confusion (which comes easily, I agree) on what's what with Elsir Vale.


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## Otterscrubber (Apr 12, 2009)

Are there any maps of Overlook available?


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## Tellerve (Apr 12, 2009)

In Siege at Bordrin's Watch, the second in the series of the Scales of War campaign there is a map and description, pretty good in fact, of Overlook.

I will say though that I'm still a bit troubled by the 100' and increasing walls of Overlook.  When I first read them I felt they seemed f'n immense.  Later in the SoW campaign Overlook is attacked and they have mention of creatures breaking through the walls and have a map of the wall, showing it at 20' height.  Again, probably a mess up on WotC's part for the later adventure, although I think anyone using it to then have it attacked later might want to change the wall height.  100' of dwarven wall s awfully daunting.

Also Overlook is laid out as to be an incredibly annoying city to try and maneuver around in considering its East West axial gates are the only ones.  Adding at least a couple North South Gates might make things easier.  Or just don't worry 'bout it.


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## Pale Jackal (Apr 13, 2009)

Is the Red Hand of Doom worth mining ideas from if I can get it cheaply?  Since I figured that the campaign I recently started might have an evil army!!! segment to it.  However, the campaign is 4E, so I'm interested in the plot rather than the numbers.  The plot doesn't have to be great, but should hopefully be somewhat interesting.  Other suggestions of modules old or new would be appreciated.


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## mlangsdorf (Apr 13, 2009)

Red Hand of Doom is a pretty worthwhile module and could be converted nicely to a 4th edition late Heroic/early paragon adventure.

Here's a quick mini-review:

The PCs start by heading into the woods, planning to delve at Vraath's keep.  On the road, they are ambushed by hobgoblins - and when they get to town, the locals ask them to investigate bandit activity in the area.  At Vraath's keep, they discover a hobgoblin horde plans to conquer the area in a few weeks.  The heroes head north to Skull Gorge, and fight a dragon so as to destroy the bridge the horde needs and slow them down.

The PCs then have roughly six weeks to spend running hither and yon across the Elsir vale, finding allies for human civilization and destroying the hobgoblin's allies.  Notable encounters include a black dragon in a swamp and a lich in his lion-shaped lair*.

Finally, the horde advances on Brindol.  The PCs help lead the defense, hopefully suggesting wise actions and convincing the town's leadership not to do retarded things.  The PCs also have to take specific actions: killing the giants that are knocking down the town walls, defeating a red dragon rampaging over town, holding off waves of enemy troops to let friendly battle lines reform, and fighting off against the big bad in the town square.

The 5th act has the PCs head into the horde's dungeon and stop a plan to summon demonic/infernal reinforcements, but it's a bit of anti-climax.  If you like dungeon crawling, it's not a bad dungeon.


It's an interesting adventure, with the possibility of larger scale action than most published D&D.  It's not too heavily rail-roaded either, though the PCs don't have perfect freedom.  If you can get it cheap, it's definitely worth owning, but since you can't get it on PDF anymore...


* This section would probably need to be heavily reworked, as the lich's stronghold is very small and has lots of 20' square or less rooms in it.  It's very much a knife-fight in 4th edition terms, and area powers are going to be devastating to both sides.


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## Ryujin (Apr 13, 2009)

I don't know how well this would work for most but looking at the post-apocalypse FR map, there's some prime territory to drop the Scales of War map into. It's to the east of Thay, on the other side of the mountains. I would just over-write the geography with the Scales map. This has the benefit of providing geography that accounts for isolation, a source of undead and humanoids beyond western mountains (giving Bordin's watch a reason for existing), and a whole wide world for the campaign to expand into once the characters hit sufficient levels and if the GM feels the need.


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## Pale Jackal (Apr 13, 2009)

mlangsdorf said:


> Red Hand of Doom is a pretty worthwhile module and could be converted nicely to a 4th edition late Heroic/early paragon adventure.




Thanks for the mini-review.  I think I'll give it a look, especially since I don't mind reworking certain aspects.  Dilemmas regarding what to do as the walls are being breached, and a dragon is razing buildings and so on sounds fun, even if the dilemmas aren't too terribly complex.

Additionally, thanks for the input about the 5th act, it definitely seems like an anti-climax, but I might not have realized that on my own.


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## occam (Apr 13, 2009)

Tellerve said:


> I just started a campaign of 4e in the Nentir Valley, a la Fallcrest, Keep on the Shadowfell etc etc.  I'm not going to run Keep and that lot because of one the players is also in another game I get to actually play in and that DM is using them.
> 
> So, I was looking at the Scales of War campaign and I'm wondering if this world is supposed to be part of the same world....  I was thinking of having the Elsir Vale be somewhere down south of Nentir Valley and be more or less done with it.
> 
> Just hoping that perhaps someone knows more what is going on with Wizards and their hodgepodge generic world.




I think the best answer is "Do whatever works best for you"; I'll be relocating much of the AP to an entirely different geography.

But if you want an "official" answer, I think you're as close as it gets. The only connection I can recall is in the most recent adventure, _Alliance at Nefelus_, which has a couple of references to the _(spoilers ahead)_


Spoiler



white dragon Chillreaver and the frost giants being from the frozen lands north of the Winterbole Forest


.


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