# [Burning THAC0] B2: The Keep on the Borderlands (ooc/setup)



## engrishonly (Dec 29, 2010)

​ 
Welcome back to the old school.

With the Keep on the Borderlands, there's a lot that isn't in the lines of the rules & the old sandbox module. You have to be able to see between the lines to get your US$0.02 out of it. The entire style of B2 is totally different than the more heavily scripted modules of today, which is not necessarily any better nor worse. That old style setup of B2 provides a different sort of player/GM authorship that is fun to revisit.

We're not going red box for this, though. We will be using the Burning Wheel because I like the system & I want to try it in the THAC0 mode. (Old school sensibilities don't necessarily need old systems, as players of many modern games know full well.)

*System:* Burning Wheel
*Character "Level":* 3 lifepath "Burning THAC0" characters (_think_ lvl 1 DnD characters)
*Setting:* Mystara, the Grand Duchy of Karameikos (circa red/blue box DnD, the Expert set)

No knowledge of the BW rules is required. This is as much of an introduction as B2 was intended to be. We will use abbreviated intro-type rules to make it simple (like those in "The Sword" scenario for BW), and I will do my best to explain as we go. (Maybe with a BW vet or two, this will be easier than I think it will be.)

BW is character-driven, and meant as an anti-railroad game (in the "GM's plot dictates the direction" sense of railroad). Translating this into DnD modules: adapting a whole Pathfinder AP for the Buring Wheel is a bigger challenge than doing it with an older sandbox-style game, but not impossible.

In a follow-on post, I will provide links for those who want to click around/research about the Burning Wheel before asking for more info.

...

Now, what do I want?

Looking for 4 player characters. 3 will do fine, but no more than 4... Otherwise, tracking it all & engaging all the Beliefs becomes a hassle. Four plus one (me, the Dungeon Master) is the ideal I'm after, with at least one player with no experience with the Burning Wheel.

Info-wise, stuff I'd like to see in expressions of interest... 

How much experience you have with Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, and/or Mouse Guard.
Generally, what's your prior experience with the Keep on the Borderlands (for Basic D&D) &/or the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (for AD&D 2e)... And would you be annoyed at "changes" to the Keep/Caves of Chaos?
If you've been to the Keep on the Borderlands before, what's your fondest memory of the adventure? What was the weakest part of the experience?
Ditto to the general setting of Karameikos, as well as Mystara.
What class/race (racial class, for red box DnD) you'd play if this was a DnD game. And what DnD alignment.
What other PbP games you're a part of, and what amount of PbP experience you have.
Why you're interested in this game & what you're hoping to get out of the experience.


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## engrishonly (Dec 30, 2010)

Linkages...

The introductory chapter of the Burning Wheel system (free to download), which includes basic task resolution concepts, and a simple description by the author.

The Burning THAC0   compilation. This is a collection of message board posts, personal notes & ideas for running BW   in the style of red box D&D (Moldvay, Mentzer, not today's red box). For   those who are new to BW, take it all with a grain of salt. You aren't   really the audience for the document... but in making characters, you   may want to see the lifepath suggestions on page 3 of the Burning THAC0   pdf. (For Elves & Dwarves & Halflings of the red box, I can give you some other suggestions.)

Also, the "What is Burning Wheel" sticky post on the Burning Wheel forum, which may also be helpful to skim through...


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## HandofMystra (Dec 30, 2010)

reading the materials


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## InVinoVeritas (Dec 31, 2010)

Interested! On an old school kick lately...

I've never played or experienced (and only barely heard of) Burning Wheel before. However, I'm a 25 year veteran of RPGs, starting with the Red Box that I trained myself on. 

You'd think that this would mean that I've played in Keep. I haven't, strangely enough. I started with Bargle, went to the Isle of Dread, and started writing my own adventures from there. So do whatever you want with the Keep, I won't notice the difference.

As for character, that's a tough choice... Since we're talking Red Box, I'll take a Cleric.


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## engrishonly (Dec 31, 2010)

Faith & sorcery have interesting mechanics in Burning Wheel... they aren't the DnD system, anyway. Priests are measured by their Faith, which looks at that character's relationship with their deity/power... and in turn, that relationship informs the sort of thing that happens when the Priest attempts to bring the power of faith into play. (Sorcery is a whole 'nother beast)

In choosing a Cleric (the game doesn't require one of anything, although martial-type characters are probably required for the old school), you would be moving the dial towards questions of faith, disputes between religious orders, and so on. That's the way the Burning Wheel rolls. Character choice informs the shape of the world, the direction of play within the sandbox.

Anyway, I ramble on. Let's see who else might have any degree of interest in this.


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## HandofMystra (Dec 31, 2010)

Burning Wheel sounds interesting.


How much experience you have with Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, and/or Mouse Guard. I read Mouse Guard; have not played any
Generally,  what's your prior experience with the Keep on the Borderlands (for  Basic D&D) &/or the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (for  AD&D 2e)... And would you be annoyed at "changes" to the Keep/Caves  of Chaos? Never played - I really started in 3.5
If you've been to the Keep on the Borderlands before,  what's your fondest memory of the adventure? What was the weakest part  of the experience?
Ditto to the general setting of Karameikos, as well as Mystara. Nada
I'll leave the next three until after I finish the BW intro

What class/race (racial class, for red box DnD) you'd play if this was a DnD game. And what DnD alignment.
What other PbP games you're a part of, and what amount of PbP experience you have.
Why you're interested in this game & what you're hoping to get out of the experience.


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## HandofMystra (Dec 31, 2010)

I did a bit of reading (thank you Wikipedia). I am pulled to be a Traladaran paladin: Village Born, Temple Acolyte, Bannerman. I do not know these lifepath categories. He is pulled (is this a Belief?) to search for the heritage and ancient dignity of his people in the ruins around Karameiko. His is protective of those of his village and would be more likely to follow a  Traladaran (are there such) than the current law. He is of a ancient noble family, but has had a pretty gritty existence in the village.
How is that for a start?
Maybe he has heard that this an artifact out in the ruins that details the culture of ancients, which would interest him.


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## engrishonly (Dec 31, 2010)

Some understanding of Mouse Guard is helpful since the MG is a modified version of the Burning Wheel. You should be familiar with concepts like the fact that the River is Rising, and the concept of Scripting for Fights & Duels of Wits & Chases.

................

For everyone, one more thing about characters. DnD Class is important to help pin down ideas, but not the only thing. BW is a game where we need to share stories & ideas, and not just in the stupid "art of roleplaying" crap. The mechanics are built around your ability to play/realize your character.

BW runs better for you when you can achieve "arthas", basically converting characterful play into in-game "currency" (think drama points or fate points) that you can use to supercharge your actions.

To get the artha wheel rolling, you need a character grounded by a strong Concept. If you've got one or two punchy sentences about your character (no more than that), share them.

Just some examples from movies & stories...
"A young man, raised by his Aunt and Uncle, who dreams of going off on an adventure. His father is actually the Dark Lord of the evil Empire."

"A ranger from the North, born into a disgraced noble house. Does he have the strength of character to lead other men, or is he heir to all the flaws of his house?"

"An academic who is also a hard-nosed adventurer. His love of riches and fame often gets him in trouble."


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 31, 2010)

so sahly, no speeky engrish, but good luck on your game! I am a player in an old school 1st ed game already. do you know about the OSRIC?


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## engrishonly (Dec 31, 2010)

HandofMystra said:


> I did a bit of reading (thank you Wikipedia). I am pulled to be a Traladaran paladin: Village Born, Temple Acolyte, Bannerman. I do not know these lifepath categories. He is pulled (is this a Belief?) to search for the heritage and ancient dignity of his people in the ruins around Karameiko. His is protective of those of his village and would be more likely to follow a  Traladaran (are there such) than the current law. He is of a ancient noble family, but has had a pretty gritty existence in the village.
> How is that for a start?
> Maybe he has heard that this an artifact out in the ruins that details the culture of ancients, which would interest him.




Yes, that seems like a solid start. I like the concept & the direction, and it provides a lot to work with.

He doesn't start with the Noble trait, "Mark of Privilege", but achieving his place & restoring his ancient family name might allow him to gain that trait through play. It would be a fun goal, I think.

The Lifepaths... Village Born is obvious. It leads to the Religious setting, as an Acolyte. This unlocks the Faith attribute, and covers all the holy aspects of Paladin. He then joins the militant ranks (the Soldier setting) as a Bannerman (a soldier/cavalryman entrusted to hold the banner of his Lord/commander when going into battle).


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## engrishonly (Dec 31, 2010)

Scott DeWar said:


> I am a player in an old school 1st ed game already. do you know about the OSRIC?




I've heard about it, but I didn't really consider using it.

What AD&D did is great, but the style of it is more towards simulation & task-resolution. A lot of the greatness of DnD wasn't codified (and probably should never be written down as rules to allow for player creativity).

The Burning Wheel has a modern focus on character & player storytelling, but that doesn't rule out old school dungeon delving.


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## Scott DeWar (Dec 31, 2010)

'K. Never the less, Good luck with the game!!


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## Voidrazor (Jan 1, 2011)

Ooh! I've been wanting to play some Burning X. The system seems very cool, and should lend itself well to PbP. And dipping a toe in with with Burning THAC0 is probably the best way to go.


How much experience you have with Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, and/or Mouse Guard.
I read BE and BW a year or so ago. I also made a BW character for a PbP game that never started.
Generally, what's your prior experience with the Keep on the Borderlands (for Basic D&D) &/or the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (for AD&D 2e)... And would you be annoyed at "changes" to the Keep/Caves of Chaos?
I haven't played or read either Keep or its sequel.
If you've been to the Keep on the Borderlands before, what's your fondest memory of the adventure? What was the weakest part of the experience?
N/A
Ditto to the general setting of Karameikos, as well as Mystara.
I read a little online.
What class/race (racial class, for red box DnD) you'd play if this was a DnD game. And what DnD alignment.
I'd probably play a magic user. But given how awesomely Tolkien-esque the BW elves are, that's what I'd like to play in this game.
What other PbP games you're a part of, and what amount of PbP experience you have.
My sig has a listing of the ones I've played here, all of which have sadly died. I'm in a couple over at Brilliant Gameologists currently. Anyway, I'm very comfortable with PbP.
Why you're interested in this game & what you're hoping to get out of the experience.
As I mentioned I've been wanting to play BW for a while. I love how its structured to have a large degree of character involvement. And the Duel of Wits and Fight! systems seem to be way cool. I'd love to get into some political intrigue. But failing that, developing an interesting dynamic between the PC's while doing a more or less standard dungeon crawl is draw enough.


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## engrishonly (Jan 1, 2011)

For everyone, the concept thing...

The Keep on the Borderlands involves a dungeon "sandbox", so character concept should be based on classic fantasy adventurer stories. A happy, settled person isn't really the adventuring type. 

So, find that idea inside you about someone who sets out on the uncertain path to excitement and adventure.



Voidrazor said:


> Ooh! I've been wanting to play some Burning X. The system seems very cool, and should lend itself well to PbP. And dipping a toe in with with Burning THAC0 is probably the best way to go.
> 
> 
> How much experience you have with Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, and/or Mouse Guard.
> ...






Great! 
Just come up with a good concept, and I think you'll be all set.

There's a link to the Burning THAC0 doc, but it does not contain any sample 3-lifepath ideas for Elves. 

I can give you ideas (the radically non-Basic Set D&D one is Born Etharch, Soldier-Protector (Elven Citadels setting), Sword Singer (Elven Protectors setting)), but since you have access to the books, go ahead and figure out what makes sense with whatever concept you come up with.


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## engrishonly (Jan 1, 2011)

For those who want a little more oomph to kick start a concept, here's Gary Gygax's "background" piece for the Keep on the Borderlands... a fine introduction, and also a way to channel your concepts towards the sandbox that we have in front of us.



			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> The Realm of mankind is narrow and  constricted. Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders, seeking  to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures. If it  were not for a stout few, many in the Realm would indeed fall prey to  the evil which surrounds them. Yet, there are always certain exceptional  and brave members of humanity, as well as similar individuals among its  allies - dwarves, elves, and halflings - who rise above the common  level and join battle to stave off the darkness which would otherwise  overwhelm the land. Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek  their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the  challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. Such adventurers meet the  forces of Chaos in a testing ground where only the fittest will return  to relate the tale. Here, these individuals will become skilled in their  profession, be it fighter or magic-user, cleric or thief. They will be  tried in the fire of combat, those who return, hardened and more fit.  True, some few who do survive the process will turn from Law and good  and serve the masters of Chaos, but most will remain faithful and ready  to fight chaos wherever it threatens to infect the Realm.
> 
> You are indeed members of that exceptional class, adventurers who have journeyed to the *KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS* in search of fame and fortune. Of course you are inexperienced, but you  have your skills and a heart that cries out for adventure. You have it  in you to become great, but you must gain experience and knowledge and  greater skill. There is much to learn, and you are willing and eager to be about it! Each of you has come with everything which could possibly be given you  to help. Now you must fend for yourselves; your fate is in your hands,  for better or worse.
> 
> ...


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## Voidrazor (Jan 2, 2011)

The Born Etharch, Soldier-Protector, Sword Singer lifepath is intriguing but I'm leaning a bit more toward Born Etharch, Forrester (wilderness), Ranger (protector). Born under a prophecy that he (she?) would see Vyalia in flames, Vellekhyr has forgone his noble birthright to wander in self-imposed exile. He is haunted by grief, distrustful an stern, yet determined to forge those alliances that may save his homeland.

Sound workable?


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## engrishonly (Jan 2, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> The Born Etharch, Soldier-Protector, Sword Singer lifepath is intriguing but I'm leaning a bit more toward Born Etharch, Forrester (wilderness), Ranger (protector). Born under a prophecy that he (she?) would see Vyalia in flames, Vellekhyr has forgone his noble birthright to wander in self-imposed exile. He is haunted by grief, distrustful an stern, yet determined to forge those alliances that may save his homeland.
> 
> Sound workable?




Cool. Solid. Go ahead with that. Think about a Belief based on the loose ideas of my prior post (the Gary Gygax introduction), and write up a Belief based on Vellekhyr's exile. Your last Belief should be based on inter-party relationships.

Between your Elven Ranger & the Paladin, that's two solid working concepts so far.

Comments/mods...
Vyalia can be a significant city/province of Alfheim (the major Elven setting in early D&D Mystara), or perhaps the Elven name for Alfheim (which is what the Humans call it). 

I want to preserve the name "Alfheim" (even if it's a cheesy copy of Norse myth), but the rest of it can be scrapped & reworked for our purposes.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 4, 2011)

I only chose Vyalia it was the cooler sounding of the two names of elven clans mentioned on the Mystara wiki. I was way into the Norse mythos as a kid, so Alfheim is awesome. 

I hope its OK if I take a while to let Vellekyr's beliefs percolate. It would be nice to get a better feeling for the character, the other PC's, and the world before committing.


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## engrishonly (Jan 4, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> I only chose Vyalia it was the cooler sounding of the two names of elven clans mentioned on the Mystara wiki. I was way into the Norse mythos as a kid, so Alfheim is awesome.
> 
> I hope its OK if I take a while to let Vellekyr's beliefs percolate. It would be nice to get a better feeling for the character, the other PC's, and the world before committing.




Heh, I've probably read less of the Mystara wiki than you! I think most of the map will be "empty" until we fill it in through play... So use whatever names & plots you like to bring out your character. 

I don't plan for any giant happenings in Mystara until the player characters need something to do.

(There may very well be plots & happenings within the sandbox of the game, however).

Okay, I'll help get the others going.

Perhaps the game will just go with 3. (And no thief! Or sorceror!)


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## engrishonly (Jan 5, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> I did a bit of reading (thank you Wikipedia). I am pulled to be a Traladaran paladin: Village Born, Temple Acolyte, Bannerman. I do not know these lifepath categories. He is pulled (is this a Belief?) to search for the heritage and ancient dignity of his people in the ruins around Karameiko. His is protective of those of his village and would be more likely to follow a  Traladaran (are there such) than the current law. He is of a ancient noble family, but has had a pretty gritty existence in the village.
> How is that for a start?
> Maybe he has heard that this an artifact out in the ruins that details the culture of ancients, which would interest him.




Alright... The nuts and bolts of it, as we wait for others.

Village Born, leads to Religious Setting, to Temple Acolyte, leads to Professional Soldier, to Bannerman

Age: 21

8 pts to divide between Will & Perception
17 pts to divide between Power, Forte, Agility, Speed
(See the intro chapter PDF for info about these basic abilities & what they mean)

9 pts for lifepath skills:
Conspicuous*, Doctrine, Read*, Riding, Sword, Temple-wise, Write, Armor Training**
(* Required, ** Costs 2 pts to unlock & does not advance)

Plus, 3 General skill points
(Can be spent on any general skill or any lifepath skill. Ask if you are looking for something. Oratory (speaking to a crowd) and/or Persuasion (convincing individuals) may be something you want)

Conspicuous is the skill to make yourself seen, and to stand out in a crowd.
Doctrine is knowledge/lore about the religious faith.
Temple-wise (and any "wise") is the BW style of knowledge skill.
Armor Training eliminates some movement penalties for wearing heavier armor.

...

Traits: Tonsured, Faithful, Honored, plus 2 extra points

Tonsured means your character has shaved his head as part of the rites of joining the Order
Faithful unlocks the ability to call on Faith
Honored is a characteristic of a bannerman. The expectation of this character trait is that the character must represent someone who truly deserves to be honored.

This is just another step, but the concept seemed good.

The toughest part is in writing Beliefs & Instincts.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 5, 2011)

Hi there -- 

First off:

How much experience you have with Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, and/or Mouse Guard.

I own BW, and have played two short campaigns. 

Generally, what's your prior experience with the Keep on the Borderlands (for Basic D&D) &/or the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (for AD&D 2e)... And would you be annoyed at "changes" to the Keep/Caves of Chaos?

Never played;  might have looked at it ages ago, but no real knowledge of setting.


Ditto to the general setting of Karameikos, as well as Mystara.

Unknown


What class/race (racial class, for red box DnD) you'd play if this was a DnD game. And what DnD alignment.

I've got an idea for a human cleric/thief -- never a happy combination in DnD, but something that might be possible in BW. Focus on social skills; with only three paths, there might not be any combat skills. Alignment somewhere between NG and LN, but veering towards TN rather than LG. 


What other PbP games you're a part of, and what amount of PbP experience you have.

None currently. Started several here on ENworld, but most peter out too quickly. 


Why you're interested in this game & what you're hoping to get out of the experience.

Honestly, I'm hoping for a pbp game that can continue; play a character that's fun, learn more about the BW system. 


The basic character idea is this: a human petty thief who lucks into an church position, and balances the obligations of the role with her charm and petty larceny. 

I guess it depends on what role you want religion to play in the game; it's everywhere in DnD, and so I hope it's viable. 

Crunch:
Village born -- serving wench -- pardoner.

(Serving wench has sleight of hand and can access religion; pardoner isn't a spellcaster but has interpersonal skills and the cool trait, pardoner.)

General skills needed are some kind of healing (herbalism?) and perhaps a weapon skill (boxing? staff? -- I think she'll avoid fights generally, depending on soothing platitudes and persuasion instead). 

For Traits, Aura of Innocence. 

Let me know what you think, and if this fits what you want for the game.   

KS


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## engrishonly (Jan 5, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> The basic character idea is this: a human petty thief who lucks into an church position, and balances the obligations of the role with her charm and petty larceny.
> 
> I guess it depends on what role you want religion to play in the game; it's everywhere in DnD, and so I hope it's viable.
> 
> ...




That'll work. One of the prior posters also wanted a Cleric-type, but that doesn't really matter. It just affects the tone of play if we have multiple Clerics.

Of course, old school adventuring does tend to have a fight or two, so I'd at least open the Brawling or Knife or Staff skill in case the fighter-types push play in that direction or things just evolve into a fight. More than opening a martial skill is probably unnecessary.

D&D religion is kind of strange. Whatever works is good. Adopting the oddball polytheist D&D pantheon is probably the best starting point... but, like the initial map of Mystara, consider names like "St. Cuthbert" or "Kurtulmak" to simply be names for us to fill up with our own stories.

The fact that there's a Paladin & potentially two Clerics probably makes religion a focus, so sort out where your character comes from. I have a "microdungeon" in mind for the setting to fit this focus. I would guess that Beliefs based on religious schisms might be good internal party Beliefs.

EDIT:
It would be cool if the Paladin & your Thief-Cleric worshipped the same deity, representing different factions of the faith.

Randomly finding Mystaran deities of Karameikos...
Chardastes

Traladaran...
Petra
Halav

... a bunch more...


These are all blended into the Church of Karameikos... I guess the Church of Karameikos is probably the best way to go. This gives a lot of options for patron deities.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 7, 2011)

I'll admit that I'm thinking more thief than cleric -- I like the Pardoner because it gives an ecclesiastical function, but one that by itself is open to fraud, misrepresentation, etc. Exactly what a barmaid needs. 

I'm out of town at the moment and away from books, but if this fits, I'm willing to try the character. It'll be interesting to see if a social character can survive a dungeon-crawl. I guess the BW system is all about not making rolls, right? 

A dispensation from the Church of Karameikos is fine, if that works for HandofMystra.


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## engrishonly (Jan 7, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> I'll admit that I'm thinking more thief than cleric -- I like the Pardoner because it gives an ecclesiastical function, but one that by itself is open to fraud, misrepresentation, etc. Exactly what a barmaid needs.
> 
> I'm out of town at the moment and away from books, but if this fits, I'm willing to try the character. It'll be interesting to see if a social character can survive a dungeon-crawl. I guess the BW system is all about not making rolls, right?
> 
> A dispensation from the Church of Karameikos is fine, if that works for HandofMystra.




Alright, that's cool. The Paladin will probably roll with Faithful, and I'm sure the Cleric is headed that way.

I think there's opportunities to run the DoW mechanics, and other methods to get around/through things in the dungeons... In addition to Fight, anyway.

Also, Cultists are usually part of the dungeons. The Cultists that with the Pardoner aspects might work well.

Think about what drives your Pardoner-barmaid into the dungeon. Having a "what drives you into the dungeon" Belief would be helpful.

And, yes, all the fun is in the dice roll failures  That's where a lot of drama is.


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## Mathalus (Jan 8, 2011)

*Can I play with you guys? Can I? Huh?*

I'd love to play with you guys. It looks like the only classic trope you are missing is... dun dun da dunnn... the Magic-User.

How much experience you have with Burning Wheel, Burning Empires, and/or Mouse Guard.

I've played Burning Wheel a little. 

Generally, what's your prior experience with the Keep on the Borderlands (for Basic D&D) &/or the Return to the Keep on the Borderlands (for AD&D 2e)... And would you be annoyed at "changes" to the Keep/Caves of Chaos?
If you've been to the Keep on the Borderlands before, what's your fondest memory of the adventure? What was the weakest part of the experience?
Ditto to the general setting of Karameikos, as well as Mystara.

I have never played any of this. I am reading through what is on wikipedia right now.

What class/race (racial class, for red box DnD) you'd play if this was a DnD game. And what DnD alignment.

I'd be a human magic-user. Of some dubious alignment (I promise to not be a jerk though).

What other PbP games you're a part of, and what amount of PbP experience you have.

None.

Why you're interested in this game & what you're hoping to get out of the experience.

I can't get enough of Burning Wheel and I am hoping this will help fill the rapidly expanding void. I also hope to gain experience with the advancement and storytelling elements. I think that they could help any role-playing system.


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## Mathalus (Jan 8, 2011)

*Ferrantos - First Draft*

Okay, after reading the Enchanting rules on the Burning Wheel Wiki, I had  this for a concept:

Ferrantos, Vengeful Metal Artificer.  

I am a Thyatian, the bastard son of some minor nobility. It makes my younger, but legitimate, half-brother uncomfortable when I am around, so I left to study the arcane with Master Artificer Vide. He taught me the ways of enchanting objects and found that I was gifted with metals especially. Together we used our talents to collaborate on a fantastic item, a cloak of shimmering silver that protects its wearer from physical attacks. However, something went terribly wrong and it drove my master mad.

Now I need to kill my old master for stealing the Quicksilver Cloak we made and turning his daughter against me. I don't have the strength to face him. Plus, when it comes to fighting I am... careful. My master has powerful eldritch shields that make my magic worthless by comparison. To pierce my master's protection, I need to create a blade sharp enough that it can draw blood from a stone. Also, I will need someone to wield it.

I fled my master's keep, searching for ways to craft my revenge. I searched for a long time, patiently testing and learning. I decided to journey to the Borderlands because I have heard of the monsters that lurk there and I think that they might help provide the antecedents I need to create the avenging blade. Recently, however, I have seen visions of the PC's in my smoking knife trances. 

Now I am convinced that the perfect wielder of my blade is one of those I am with. But which one is it? As usual, I will be patient and learn.


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## Mathalus (Jan 8, 2011)

So that’s my basic draft. I took some inspiration from the song Black Wings by Tom Waits. 

I am happy to discuss or change anything that seems lame or not fun to anyone. What is everyone else like? I’d like to know before I get too permanently attached to a concept.

I was thinking of taking spells that are very limited in effect. The flashiest thing I can do is limited telekinesis (of metal), and make fires bigger. I wanted to keep a bit of a low magic vibe. I’m hoping to do mainly item-based magic, a lot of imbuing rather than enchanting, since I am a crappy enchanter.


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## engrishonly (Jan 8, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Okay, after reading the Enchanting rules on the Burning Wheel Wiki, I had  this for a concept:
> 
> Ferrantos, Vengeful Metal Artificer.
> 
> ...




Cool. Interesting.

The question of Nobility is a good thread. It's woven into the Paladin concept in the group so far. I am reading the Dune novels again (the Frank Herbert books, interwoven with BHPA's "Paul of Dune" and "The Winds of Dune"), so Noble Houses are on my mind.

The half-brother might also be an important figure in all this, relative to you & the Paladin character.

The Master also is interesting... Though in the Dune concept, there are only Fremen & the Landsraad houses. All others (Mentats, Masters of Assassins, Swordmasters, et cetera) serve. 

Perhaps the old Master "serves" an old & corrupt Noble house tied up in the situation? Then the brother & the Paladin might be tied up in the mess as well.


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## InVinoVeritas (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm going to bow out of this one. Sorry, it looks like fun, but I've determined my hands are already full.

Take care, and have a great game!


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## Voidrazor (Jan 9, 2011)

A 'houses in conflict' sub-theme would be made of awesome. And the intrigue could create some interesting possibilities for the thief-pardoner. Perhaps House Karameikos could have a few lesser houses (of varying loyalty) sworn to it, while the Traladaran houses could be independent of each other and of more or less even prominence. I'm sure this is pretty far afield from the Keep on the Borderlands materials but if everyone's down for some intrigue, betrayal, large battles, etc. it could be a lot of fun.

Another sub-theme that might be interesting would be religious conflict. Perhaps the Church of Karameikos could be monotheist, but trying to integrate/subjugate Traladaran polytheism (i.e. there could be some doctrine about how the 12 Traladaran gods are but aspects of God).


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## engrishonly (Jan 9, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> A 'houses in conflict' sub-theme would be made of awesome. And the intrigue could create some interesting possibilities for the thief-pardoner. Perhaps House Karameikos could have a few lesser houses (of varying loyalty) sworn to it, while the Traladaran houses could be independent of each other and of more or less even prominence. I'm sure this is pretty far afield from the Keep on the Borderlands materials but if everyone's down for some intrigue, betrayal, large battles, etc. it could be a lot of fun.




Yeah, the Keep on the Borderlands doesn't have this stuff in mind... but it doesn't rule it out either. That's kind of the brilliance of it.

The original module doesn't even have _names_ for the major NPCs... just roles & titles. A lot of it is pure sandbox, in that the DM fits it all into the story of the PCs. It really is a different mentality than many more modern scripted adventures (and I _like_ the Pathfinder APs that I have, so it's not that I'm against railroad-y stuff).

So, the Castellan of the Keep is one personality that plays into this "Minor House" thing. He'd be useful.

There's also a "Mad Hermit" who lives in the woods. One of my crazy schemes is to make a "Lear" out of him... a blind old crazyman (like the Preacher in Frank Herbert's "Children of Dune"?), with a Fool for a servant. I don't know what that means in the scheme of our story, however.



Voidrazor said:


> Another sub-theme that might be interesting would be religious conflict. Perhaps the Church of Karameikos could be monotheist, but trying to integrate/subjugate Traladaran polytheism (i.e. there could be some doctrine about how the 12 Traladaran gods are but aspects of God).




Yes! I like that interpretation of the Church... but I'll stay out of this discussion for now. It's a solid path to take, IMO.

There's also an evil cult in the countryside, BTW.

EDIT:
The Paladin is Traladaran... so your Thief/Pardoner should be the official Church of Karameikos, I think. Like the Catholic church in need of a Reformation (and I am Catholic, so no offense towards Catholics is intended)... selling indulgences, being as much about temporal power as spiritualism.


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## engrishonly (Jan 9, 2011)

Alrighty.

At this time, we have...

Paladin
Thief/Pardoner
Magician/Enchanter

There's a few different story threads. Noble houses, former Masters, religious organizations.

We could use one more!



InVinoVeritas said:


> I'm going to bow out of this one. Sorry, it looks like fun, but I've determined my hands are already full.
> 
> Take care, and have a great game!




Thanks for letting us know! There definitely can be too much of a good thing with PbP.


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## Mathalus (Jan 9, 2011)

To Kobold Stew, consider opening the crossbow skill. It doesn’t matter if you have low power when you use a crossbow and if you get Spear Tip bolts they pierce armor like cheese. Plus you can carry it around loaded and they make for great Instincts.

I'm looking to integrate my character with the others. Voidrazor, could we have known each other in Vyalia? Maybe that's where my master was based at the time and when I had to leave you left as well, due to the whole grief/vision thing? I'd like to figure out why we all want to hang out.

I was going to burn up a character using this site and the Born Noble, Arcane Devotee, and Sorcerer lifepaths.

Burning Wheel Character Burner 

Also I am all about rolling with three players if we can't find another.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 9, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> At this time, we have...
> 
> Paladin
> Thief/Pardoner
> ...




You missed my character, the elven ranger.


Mathalus, would it work for you if our characters got to know each other just outside of Vyalia/Álfheim? My char would have exiled himself well over a century before the start of the game. Hmm, if its cool with you, perhaps I could have known your master for a long time before he went mad. That way he'd be of concern to both of us, but we could have some interesting conflict about how best to deal with him.


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## Mathalus (Jan 9, 2011)

I like it. Then we know each other from elsewhere. Was it my idea to go to the Keep on the Borderlands? I need to get antecedents from somewhere and monsters are a good source. Do you want to come along to keep me out of trouble? Are you worried about me in general? What makes your character, who is this awesome elf, hang out with a young impulsive guy like me? I made up this bit of backstory and sort of created this Quicksilver cloak, but we don't have to use it.


From the Enchanting rules

The item can be cursed. A curse makes the item so desirable that it destroys the relationships of those who use it. A cursed item is coveted by its owner, who believes it to be mighty and powerful.
If the player wishes his character to give up the item, a Will test is required. The obstacle is equal to the Enchanting obstacle.
If, during the course of play, another character offers to purchase or trade for the item and is rebuffed by the owner, he too is cursed! He gains the benefit of the Enmity Clause when dealing with the bearer of the cursed item. Cursed items always cause a Greed test in Dwarves.


Quicksilver Cloak
Cursed silver that pulls like the void

This shimmering cloak flows like a river of silver. It is actually made of extremely tiny steel scales held together with binding magicks. Attacks seem to slide off of it, although if damaged it becomes torn. It then must be mended like armor (with +1 Ob).

14 gray shaded dice used to enchant the item. (Pretend we only made 9 successes). 
•	Specially created vessel +1D (maybe Voidrazor has smithcraft?)
•	Ferrantos helping, Enchanting exponent B5, +2D
•	Master Vide Enchanting exponent B6, +6D (Epiphany shaded to Gray)
•	Crazy Ritual to activate (Must left out in the light of the halfmoon for one hour) +2D
•	Internal Duration, Specific Physical condition (lasts until taken off) +2D
•	Target, item itself +1D

Obstacle 10 difficulty to enchant.
•	Rechargeable +1Ob
•	Gray-Shade Chain armor +3 Ob per location, (Arms, legs, torso) +9Ob


9 successes against an obstacle of 10 would normally mean failure, but instead the item ended up cursed. Both Master Vide and Ferrantos failed their Obstacle 10 Will rolls. There was a fight over who should wear it and (The Elven Ranger) broke it up, but not before Ferrantos lost his eye. Master Vide won and now never takes off the cloak, even to sleep. Ferrantos attempted to enlist the aid of Master Vide’s daughter, Vela, in stealing the cloak, but she could see that it was driving them both mad. Infuriated and driven mad by lust for the cloak, Ferrantos stabbed Vela. He and (The Elven Ranger) left immediately.

Anyway, if this is too dark or you just don't think it's fun let me know.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 9, 2011)

Sounds great. Vellekhyr is staying close to Ferrantos in hopes that the latter will eventually be able to help the former escape his fate (of seeing Vyalia/Álfheim burn). But Vellekhyr hasn't mentioned his desire for help, planning to wait a decade or so. He might also have some notion of  getting the Quicksilver cloak into the hands whatever threat inevitably arises to threaten Álfheim. But V. isn't blithe about his planned manipulations. I'll be going for a melodramatic guilty overcompensating vibe.


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## engrishonly (Jan 9, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> You missed my character, the elven ranger.




Whoops! My bad! 

We're at 4, then! Perfect!

Let me sift through the ideas as I sketch out the caves a bit more intelligently for BW's purposes.

...

The story for Vellekhyr & Ferrantos sounds good! Elven characters are sometimes hard to tie into the situation, so I'm glad there's a link. Perhaps some kind of Beliefs need to be shared between them? (For the Elven Ranger: something about that which Ferrantos is to make, and the fate of Alfheim? For the Sorceror: something about the Elven Ranger & tracking down the former Master?) Voidrazor is already on this track, but I just wanted to say, "Go with that!"

I'm not sure that either the Paladin or the Pardoner would have much cause to be in Alfheim.

Perhaps there is a common jumping off point for the Alfheim & the Karameikos portions of the group? Some link there would be nice...

The capital city of Specularum is as good a place as any.

Have not heard from the Paladin in a while...

Let me quote from Gary again...


			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> The Realm of mankind is narrow and constricted. Always the forces of Chaos press upon its borders, seeking to enslave its populace, rape its riches, and steal its treasures. If it were not for a stout few, many in the Realm would indeed fall prey to the evil which surrounds them. Yet, there are always certain exceptional and brave members of humanity, as well as similar individuals among its allies - dwarves, elves, and halflings - who rise above the common level and join battle to stave off the darkness which would otherwise overwhelm the land. Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. Such adventurers meet the forces of Chaos in a testing ground where only the fittest will return to relate the tale. Here, these individuals will become skilled in their profession, be it fighter or magic-user, cleric or thief. They will be tried in the fire of combat, those who return, hardened and more fit. True, some few who do survive the process will turn from Law and good and serve the masters of Chaos, but most will remain faithful and ready to fight chaos wherever it threatens to infect the Realm.
> 
> You are indeed members of that exceptional class, adventurers who have journeyed to the *KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS* in search of fame and fortune. Of course you are inexperienced, but you have your skills and a heart that cries out for adventure. You have it in you to become great, but you must gain experience and knowledge and greater skill. There is much to learn, and you are willing and eager to be about it! Each of you has come with everything which could possibly be given you to help. Now you must fend for yourselves; your fate is in your hands, for better or worse.
> 
> ...


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## HandofMystra (Jan 9, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Whoops! My bad!
> 
> 
> Have not heard from the Paladin in a while...
> .



I am not sure what to do here next. I don't have BW. Should I get it?  Hiw do I create beliefs?


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## engrishonly (Jan 9, 2011)

Ah, okay... you must have missed my earlier post...

Here's the mechanical stuff for the Paladin...

The Lifepaths...
Village Born, leads to Religious Setting, to Temple Acolyte, leads to Professional Soldier, to Bannerman

These lifepaths lead to the following:
Starting Age: 21

Ability Scores:
8 pts to divide between Will & Perception
17 pts to divide between Power, Forte, Agility, Speed
(See the intro chapter PDF for info about these basic abilities & what they mean. "Weak" Humans (old, young, infirm) are around B3 in their stat, with stronger/adult Humans having B4 in a stat, on average)

Skill Points:
9 pts, to be split between lifepath skills:
Conspicuous*, Doctrine, Read*, Riding, Sword, Temple-wise, Write, Armor Training**
(* Required (1 point minimum), ** Costs 2 pts to unlock & does not advance)

Plus, 3 General skill points to spend
(Can be spent on any general skill or any lifepath skill. Ask if you are looking for something. Oratory (speaking to a crowd) and/or Persuasion (convincing individuals) may be something you want)

Skill Descriptions...
Conspicuous is the skill to make yourself seen, and to stand out in a crowd. This is what Bannermen use to "say", _I am here & I carry the banner for my Lord_.
Doctrine is knowledge/lore about the religious faith.
Temple-wise (and any "wise") is the BW style of knowledge skill. It probably takes some explaining... I'll see if I've done it already in my Blog here. Otherwise, that's the next topic for my blog.
Armor Training eliminates some movement penalties for wearing heavier armor. If you want to wear heavier armor, you should invest in this skill.

...

Starting Traits...
Traits: Tonsured, Faithful, Honored, plus 2 extra points

Tonsured means your character has shaved his head as part of the rites of joining the Order.
Faithful unlocks the ability to call on Faith.
Honored is a characteristic of a bannerman. The expectation of this character trait is that the character must represent someone who truly deserves to be honored... it's probably a defining "Paladin" characteristic.

This is just another step, but the concept seemed good.

...

The toughest part is in writing Beliefs & Instincts.

I'll touch on that next...


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## engrishonly (Jan 9, 2011)

Okay, I blogged about Wises already...
EN World: D&D / RPG News & Reviews - engrishonly



HandofMystra said:


> I am not sure what to do here next. I don't have BW. Should I get it?  Hiw do I create beliefs?




Oh, and no need to buy the book.

Creating Beliefs. Let's start with that.

Burning Wheel has a "reward" system, which I've described briefly in my Blog.

Beliefs are integral to that. By engaging Beliefs, you get "drama points" called Arthas, which you can use to power up your dice rolls.

Meaning: You want the sort of Beliefs that are tied into the game's "Situation" (what is going on that needs to be fixed). You want the sort of Beliefs that are actionable & constantly in your face. You want Beliefs that make you stronger & tougher as a player because they challenge you, and through the challenge of your inner beliefs, you get a stronger player character (More Arthas to spend on more dice rolls).

It's a methodology for building a stronger player & stronger character.

So, Beliefs... and suggestions for writing the sort of thing that gives you Arthas...

Belief 1 should be about the Situation. Look at what Gary Gygax wrote about the Keep on the Borderlands (the intro passage above). Look at your own ideas about the fallen Noble heritage. Why is the Paladin going to the Keep, and for what purpose?

Belief 2 is typically about another player character in the group. It might put your characters at odds, and often! (Think Sturm Brightblade & Raistlin Majere) How does your character's code of ethics conflict with the hopes & wishes of another?

Belief 3... well, Thor Olavsrud (one of the people at BW HQ) suggests holding off on writing the third one until you get to the Keep. I think your hands will be full with 1 & 2.

And take a look at what the others are writing. 

Here's a couple Beliefs (plus a Grudge) for a Dwarven character that I burned up (a totally different game)...
Belief 1: The crown is mine. I will use it to claim my rightful place as Prince!
Belief 2: I can end Bolbere's banishment when I am Prince. I will play along with his delusions about that Burik until I can convince him that I am right.
Belief 3: As an Oathbreaker amongst my people, a sense of honor and fairness are luxuries I cannot afford. I need to look out for myself.
Grudge: I swore an Oath to our father to see my brother, Burik, sit on the throne. Burik will bow to me instead!

(Situation... some lost magic crown thingy. Prince Burik is an important NPC, and Bolbere is a player character. I decided that my Dwarf would fit in that space. He perhaps seems like a villain. I think he has great opportunity to prove himself a hero.)


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## Mathalus (Jan 10, 2011)

Maybe looking at this finished character will help people out. I burned this up using the website I mentioned. (Also, I website let me buy Missing Eye for 1 trait point, but when I looked it up in the book, it was 3. I'm hoping you'll let me keep it since it is so rad). Also I am very willing to take criticism on any of these points, so let me know.


Name: Ferrantos 
Concept/Bio: Vengeful Metal Artificer/ The Thyantian Bastard
Lifepaths: Born Noble, Arcane Devotee, Lead to City Dweller, Sorcerer
Age : 21
Stats: Wi: B5, Pe: B4, Po: B4, Fo: B5, Ag: B4, Sp: B4, Speed Mult.: x3.5
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B5, Hes: 5, Hea: B5, MW: B10, Circles: B2, Resources: B0
PTGS: Su: B3  Li: B6  Mi: B7  Se: B8  Tr: B9  Mo: B10
Beliefs: 
  To kill Master Vide I must create a blade sharp enough to make stone bleed. The first step is working with Vellekhyr to slay monsters for antecedents.
  I know that one of these three (players) will wield the avenging blade. I must keep everyone together until I find out whom.
  I need money badly. I'll use my gifts to get it and borrow if that fails.
Instincts: 
  If I am surprised I cast "The Fear!"
  I always search corpses for antecedents (enchanting materials).
  I always imbue metal objects with my enchanting ability.
Traits: [Dt] Mark of Privilege, [Char] Base Humility, [Dt] Gifted, [Dt] Missing Eye
Skills: Alchemy B3, Calligraphy B2, Enchanting B5, Persuasion B3, Read B3, Sorcery B5, Spear B2, Symbology B2, Write B2
Affiliations: +1D w/ Nobility (Mark of Privelege).
Relationships: Master Artificer Vide (Minor, hateful/rival), Auromos, my Noble Half-Brother (Minor, immediate family)
Gear: Spear (RotM), Plated Leather Armor (RotM), Alchemy Kit, Shoes, Clothes, Paper, Quills and ink, Travelling Gear
Spells: Call of Iron, Cat's Eye, The Fear, Low Speech


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## engrishonly (Jan 10, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Maybe looking at this finished character will help people out. I burned this up using the website I mentioned. (Also, I website let me buy Missing Eye for 1 trait point, but when I looked it up in the book, it was 3. I'm hoping you'll let me keep it since it is so rad). Also I am very willing to take criticism on any of these points, so let me know.




I'll have to look up the trait. It could just be as a funky character trait temporarily until we get time for a vote. As I recall, there were some penalties involved with being one-eyed... can't remember any benefits. I'll check it out, anyway.

Also, I don't know if people without the Character Burner are allowed access to online burning sites... Hopefully I can be clear enough to get it all wrapped up for our Paladin comrade.

Anyway, onto the scathing criticism! 



Mathalus said:


> Name: Ferrantos
> Concept/Bio: Vengeful Metal Artificer/ The Thyantian Bastard
> 
> Beliefs:
> ...




Belief 1... I'm not sure about this. The first half is cool, as is the second half, but they kind of don't fit well enough for my tastes. I liked the idea that Ferrantos was going to the Caves of Chaos to find something. Why not name it here? A general search for materials is harder for me to work with (it could be anything & it could be nothing). Name the thing, and as we go along, figure out "Is this the thing I seek?" I can discuss it with you further if you want ideas for the thing. And I think the relationship with Vellekhyr is better in a separate slot.
Belief 2... I'm not sure I like this one at this time. It's occupying a slot & it doesn't quite fit since there's no blade at the moment, so it's kind of general & might not help. Keep this idea in your back pocket when the blade is closer to becoming reality.
Belief 3... I wish it said more about Ferrantos. I wish it were more of an ethical/philosophical statement with actions/goals tied to it. At this point, it's closer to Instinct than Belief, IMO.

Anyway, that's my Belief feedback. I get kinda picky with these because it's how you tell me what you want. I'm always asking for more!



Mathalus said:


> Instincts:
> If I am surprised I cast "The Fear!"
> I always search corpses for antecedents (enchanting materials).
> I always imbue metal objects with my enchanting ability.




Instinct 1 is solid & will serve us well.
Instinct 2 is okay... I'm just not sold on antecedents as a general concept right now.
Instinct 3 seems like the typical skill-based instinct, so no real comment from me.

You don't have the typical "awkward social situation" Insinct, like "Never let them forget I am Noble born".

If you're okay with these, then cool.

Otherwise, 1 & 3 are cool. The one to think about is the antecedents thing. I think the whole line of the antecedents story needs tightening, IMO. It will work, but I wish it were more specific.



Mathalus said:


> Relationships: Master Artificer Vide (Minor, hateful/rival), Auromos, my Noble Half-Brother (Minor, immediate family)




Alrighty. We'll see how the others generate their Relationships.

I'd like someone to have a major NPC that I can throw into the situation, but it's not important that anyone do so.


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## Mathalus (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks for all the great advice! Okay, I have rewritten some of my beliefs and instincts and come up with a few extra. Hopefully you can help me pick out the best of them so I end up with three of each. And other players, please feel free to chime in to let us know which ones you think would be the most/least fun to play with. 

Potential Beliefs
To kill Master Vide I must create a blade sharp enough to make a stone bleed. I need to find a monster with a sharp mind to use as an antecedent.
Vellekhyr always protects me. I will use my magic to protect him.
I need money badly. Now that I’m back in Karameikos, I’ll demand some from my noble half-brother Auromos. 
It is right to lie to liars, steal from thieves, and kill murderers.
To become a great artificer, I must first improve my alchemical skill for collecting antecedents.



Potential Instincts
If I am surprised I cast "The Fear!"
I always search corpses for antecedents (enchanting materials).
I always practice my ability by imbuing my allies’ weapons. 
If someone uses religion to justify their actions around me, I scoff.
I sleep deeply after my nightly smoking-knife trances. 
If I am bored during a conversation I obscenely clean my eye-hole.


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## engrishonly (Jan 10, 2011)

Cool. I'm going to number them to facilitate discussion...



Mathalus said:


> Thanks for all the great advice! Okay, I have rewritten some of my beliefs and instincts and come up with a few extra. Hopefully you can help me pick out the best of them so I end up with three of each. And other players, please feel free to chime in to let us know which ones you think would be the most/least fun to play with.
> 
> Potential Beliefs
> 1) To kill Master Vide I must create a blade sharp enough to make a stone bleed. I need to find a monster with a sharp mind to use as an antecedent.
> ...




1) Much nicer! Specificity helps me a lot. Questing for specifics is much better for me. I can already see the potential sources for this.

2) It's okay. Not enough conflict in it. I think it's necessary to have a Belief about another character, or about the party. This might require more info about Vellekhyr. For instance, does the Elf approve of Ferrantos' harvesting of brains & parts from the slain?

3) Love this one. If the half-brother Auromos had a bigger role in the setting/situation, then it would be even cooler. As he is, (a minor NPC), he could be a Knight, stationed at the Keep.

4) Kind of works, and could be a solid 3rd Belief. If it ties to the situation, or a relationship, then it would be stronger. It's also a little broad. Keep it razor sharp, "I will lie under these circumstances" or "I will steal under these conditions". "Noblemen took my heritage, so I will never willingly speak truth to nobles", ferinstance. Then the Arthas triggers will be clear, and I can't ignore the thing that is happening.

5) Is kind of nebulous for my tastes, and the skill thing maybe works better in Instincts.



			
				Mathalus;5423647[FONT=Times New Roman said:
			
		

> Potential Instincts[/FONT]
> 1) If I am surprised I cast "The Fear!"
> 
> 2) I always search corpses for antecedents (enchanting materials).
> ...




1) Solid.

2) So Ferrantos needs the brains of a sharp enemy? It's cool, but I think the Belief is enough. This might handcuff you with too much specificity (only when you have a corpse of an enemy).

3) It can work. I think it might help to have a temporal trigger. "Before the evening meal" or "When seated in front of a fire" or something.

4) Great. This works well in a group with religious tendencies.

5) Sleep is cool, but only if you think it's a problematic thing.

6) I like #4 better.

Using the advice from the AdBu, #1 & #3 & #4 are the types of things you should have.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 11, 2011)

I think I've got this right; thoughts appreciated. 
* Uncertain about spending general points 
* Field dressing and lockpick both need unaffordable tools; don't remember how tools work. 
* I'm prepared to swich to a healing skill if no one else has one (part of char concept, but for now, I've just gone with thiefy things: strealthy could be streetwise or lockpick if it's possible to do something with no tools).
*Does it make sense to simply open Observation? I think so: but the rules aren't clear to me -- cf. Stealthy, where if you don't have Obs, you use double the obstacle against perception.  Since Most people will have a perception twice their observation, I'm a bit unclear on the benefit.
*Another possibility is to rebalance Will and Perception (?) 5/3.

Sorry about silly questions -- I guess it's been a while.
Once this is sorted, I'll write a few paragraphs of backstory.


Constance 

Lifepaths: Born Villager, Serving Wench, Lead to Religious, Pardoner
Age : 19
Stats: Wi: B4, Pe: B4, Po: B3, Fo: B3, Ag: B6, Sp: B4
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B3, Hea: B3, MW: B9
Circles: B2, Resources: B1

Beliefs: People will grant favours to earn my forgiveness. 
The more people fear, the more they need me. 

Instincts: Always distrust religious authority.
Never start with violence.

Traits: [Char] Drop Dead Gorgeous, [Dt] Pardoner, [C-o] Aura of Innocence, [Char] Tidy Aspect (*alt: Thick skinned). 

Skills: Persuasion B3, Falsehood B3, Intimidation B2, Soothing Platitudes B2, Customerwise B2, Sleight of Hand B4, Boxing B3, Observation B2, Stealthy B2

Reputation: 1D with Layfolk (infamous to church, +1 Ob) (from Pardoner)
Affiliations: 1D Forgiven adventurers (many are plagued by the violence of the keep, and have sought absolution for their killing of sentient humanoids; I’ve helped them all) (10 pts)
Relationships: My sister, Vanity, is a serving wench at the Keep. She hates me. (1 pt).
Gear: Shoes, Travelling gear, Finery (7pts)
Property: Small Cottage (3 pts)


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## engrishonly (Jan 11, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> I think I've got this right; thoughts appreciated.
> * Uncertain about spending general points
> * Field dressing and lockpick both need unaffordable tools; don't remember how tools work.
> * I'm prepared to swich to a healing skill if no one else has one (part of char concept, but for now, I've just gone with thiefy things: strealthy could be streetwise or lockpick if it's possible to do something with no tools).
> ...




General skill points... Mannish characters have the whole list of them to pick from, starting on page 226 or so. You could always augment your lifepath skills, or open new ones. It's up to you.

If the skill says Tools: Yes, then you need the tools... otherwise, it's a "double obstacle penalty". So, yes, you could pick a lock with a hair pin, or bind someone's wounds with a torn piece of cloth, but it's tougher to do so.

Field Dressing is cool. You can always try to Circle up a Healer via your Religious setting, for instance. You don't specifically need a Healer-type skill.

Observation... let's assume someone makes 2 successes with Stealthy, so it's a base Obs 2 for a versus test. Probability-wise, it's harder to pass a Obs 4 Stealthy versus test with a B4 Perception than to use B2 Observation against Obs 2 Stealthy. (Throw in a B5 Perception, translating into a B2 Observation at opening, it's a little better odds, but I'd still take B2 versus Obs 2)

People typically try to stack Will since it's harder to test. I'm not going to object to it if you want to change Will & Perception around some.

...

IMO, the only backstory anyone needs is what you can express through relationships, reputations, and affiliations. Everything else would be "color", until you're able to transform it via circles or something.
This cuts down my paperwork 

It's useful to know where the character is coming from, however.



Kobold Stew said:


> Constance
> 
> Lifepaths: Born Villager, Serving Wench, Lead to Religious, Pardoner
> Age : 19
> ...





Beliefs...
I'm not sure I like the first one. It's a statement of the obvious.

I like the second one... if you're going to push it some more. "The more people fear, the more they need me. I will spread fear of damnation wherever I go."

Going by the Belief formula, I want a Belief tied into the Situation... which means, explain why Constance wants to go to the Keep & explore the Caves of Chaos (see the Gary Gygax introduction above).

I also want a Belief about another player character... but maybe you will need to see what else comes to the table? OR, you could help out HandofMystara by writing something about the Paladin. (Assuming you've already met so we don't need to go through the "Okay, you're in a tavern, have at it" scene  )

Instincts...
Always distrust isn't bad... I think I can work with it.

Never start with violence... it's kind of halfway there, but we can see how it goes.

You might want to also write a skill-based Instinct. For instance "Always palm small objects (sleight of hand) when nobody is looking, no matter who owns the item"... it's pretty crudely written, but it illustrates the point.



Kobold Stew said:


> Skills: Persuasion B3, Falsehood B3, Intimidation B2, Soothing Platitudes B2, Customerwise B2, Sleight of Hand B4, Boxing B3, Observation B2, Stealthy B2
> 
> Reputation: 1D with Layfolk (infamous to church, +1 Ob) (from Pardoner)
> Affiliations: 1D Forgiven adventurers (many are plagued by the violence of the keep, and have sought absolution for their killing of sentient humanoids; I’ve helped them all) (10 pts)
> ...




Good to see that the relationship & affiliation are tied into the Keep. Gives me plenty to work with & think about.

The Forgiven adventurers idea is pretty interesting... I'll have to give it some thought.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks for the quick feedback.  I'll make a few comments:

1. I'll not take healing if toolkit is required. 
2. I'll open observation, and keep Pill/Perc as is (ease if nothing else), unless someone thinks I should pump will.
3. Beliefs #1: it can go
4. Beliefs #2: This was me trying to explain why I'm at the keep -- telling stories, maybe letting critters escape. If you are fine with me actively sowing terror, that's fine too, but it wasn't what I was aiming at; I was trying to be where stories of fear would develop 
5. Beliefs #3: (subject to approval!) -- Men are fools, swayed by a pretty face. 
6. Instincts: let's get rid of violence.  Perhaps: "When the fighting starts, hide." 
7. Instincts #2: I like the sleight of hand idea;  thanks. "I take unattended small items."
8. Glad you like the forgiven adventurers; I was trying to tie everything to the keep (even the cottage? could be a small place within the walls (willed to me rather than to Vanity?), or somewhere nearby.
9. In terms of Wises; is there a humanoids-wise? or are they separate (goblinwise, koboldwise, etc.)? An alternative to the adventurers is if some of the local non-human populations have been coming to Constance for forgiveness.


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## engrishonly (Jan 11, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> Thanks for the quick feedback.  I'll make a few comments:
> 
> 1. I'll not take healing if toolkit is required.
> 2. I'll open observation, and keep Pill/Perc as is (ease if nothing else), unless someone thinks I should pump will.
> ...




1. Okay. Someone should take Field Dressing, I think, just in case. Opening it is probably enough... but that's something the Paladin could do as well.

4. I don't really like the terror thing for that character idea (although it would be cool for some other character). I think the best thing is to get back to your Concept, and then see what Constance says to you.

5. I like it.

6. Perfect!

7. Cool.

8. The Keep & its environs seems like a cool idea for the small cottage. I like that. It could be a point of contention with Vanity.

9. Okay... well, my newfangled Burning Wheel version of Kobolds is this: Halflings use the Field Roden paths, and Kobolds are Below/Society... basically, Kobolds are reimagined to be a Gollum-like race of anti-Halflings by reinterpreting the Roden race from the Monster Burner. If you want to explore that, then Kobold-wise would be cool, and then Kobolds who want to return to innocence can come in from the Caves & go to Constance for redemption.


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## Mathalus (Jan 11, 2011)

It might be useful if someone opened Field Dressing. It doesn't have to be you, but it will be some rough times if we get wounded and have to wrap ourselves up with only Beginner's Luck.

I think you may have left a specific skill point or two on the table when you burned up your character. I could be wrong. Anyway, maybe you could open up Doctrine or Falsehood (same thing, amIright?)

Do you want to know my half-brother Auromos? He's a knight at the keep. Maybe he's guilty about something and has confessed it to you?

Or do you have feelings one way or the other about elves? To make another tie in to our elven ranger friend.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 11, 2011)

*Constance, take 2*

Constance 

Lifepaths: Born Villager, Serving Wench, Lead to Religious, Pardoner
Age : 19
Stats: Wi: B4, Pe: B4, Po: B3, Fo: B3, Ag: B6, Sp: B4
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B3, Hea: B3, MW: B9
Circles: B2, Resources: B1

Beliefs:  The more people fear the wild, the more they need me. 
I can pardon those without Faith (non-humans).
Men are fools, swayed by a pretty face.

Instincts: Always distrust religious authority.
When fighting starts, hide.
I take unattended small items.

Traits: [Char] Drop Dead Gorgeous, [Dt] Pardoner, [C-o] Aura of Innocence, [Char] Tidy Aspect. 

Skills: Persuasion B3, Falsehood B3, Intimidation B2, Soothing Platitudes B2, Customerwise B2, Sleight of Hand B4, Boxing B3, Observation B2, Herbalism B2

Reputation: 1D with Layfolk (infamous to church, +1 Ob) (from Pardoner)
Affiliations: 1D Forgiven adventurers (many are plagued by the violence of the keep, and have sought absolution for their killing of sentient humanoids; I’ve helped them all) (10 pts)
Relationships: My sister, Vanity, is a serving wench at the Keep. She hates me. (1 pt).
Gear: Shoes, Travelling gear, Finery (7pts)
Property: Small Cottage (3 pts)

Notes:
1. I took herbalism as a healing skill, dropped stealth. Still no tools. 
2. Kobold stuff is cool, but maybe that's something I can work towards (building a reputation among other races). I think the DnD base polytheism might mean that Pardoners do not represent any one divinity, but have (say) a special mark that signals an agreed-on authority from the pantheon (or so the story goes)... and that's a new belief, isn't it?
3: @ Mathalus: Falsehood already opened. I was choosing to avoid doctrine specifically, because of 2 above, but this could change easily. I think all 9 points are spent though (six skills opened, bumps to Pers. Fals, and SoH; gen skills in Boxing, Field dress, and obs
4. I wasn't buying more relationships because I wanted the points in property and affiliations to get the resources at B1

Thanks for the help.  Further thoughts appreciated.


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## Mathalus (Jan 11, 2011)

I think Constance is turning out to be very interesting. I'm curious how we'll all fit together, but a lot of that can be worked out in game. 

Also, you were right about that skills math.


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## engrishonly (Jan 11, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> Constance
> Beliefs:  The more people fear the wild, the more they need me.
> I can pardon those without Faith (non-humans).
> Men are fools, swayed by a pretty face.
> ...




I lile the modified Belief about the wild, in my interpretation of the setting. 

The setting of the Keep is supposed to be "on the Borderlands". Past the Keep lies Chaos, humanoids, the outlands... So it's all the wild. The Keep serves to mark/guard the borders of Karameikos.

(The old road that goes by the Keep is used extensively by merchants headed to the Emirates of Ylarum, however. They must cross through the outlands to reach the Emirates. Whether we go to the Emirates or not, it's not up to me. It can be woven in, as Alfheim is through our Elven Ranger, for instance)

However...
It would be helpful IMO to go strictly by formula and have 1 Belief tied directly to the situation (being clear about why Constance wants to go to the Caves of Chaos, like a missing sister?) and a 2nd Belief tied to another character, as the enchanter & elf are woven together.

It's not that I dislike the Beliefs you have, but without direct ties to the situation & the party, you may have more challenges bringing them into play.



Kobold Stew said:


> Reputation: 1D with Layfolk (infamous to church, +1 Ob) (from Pardoner)
> Affiliations: 1D Forgiven adventurers (many are plagued by the violence of the keep, and have sought absolution for their killing of sentient humanoids; I’ve helped them all) (10 pts)
> Relationships: My sister, Vanity, is a serving wench at the Keep. She hates me. (1 pt).
> Gear: Shoes, Travelling gear, Finery (7pts)
> ...




2. Yeah, the base polytheism is all over the place. Mystaran divinity is slightly different because of the "I" portion of BECMI (the Immortals). The Church of Karameikos is governed by 12 immortals, and I'd have to look up the names... but it's a Thyatan invention (the conquering Mannish clan), not the native Traladaran tradition. The Thyatan nobility helped to establish the Church, which seems political & tied to Thyatan governance. That's the tension I'd like to bring out... the ruling foreign nobility (Normans in England? Romans?) versus the native peoples.

So I'd see the Pardoner as part of the Church, in its "conquering people" aspect of the "church from Specularum" (the capital of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos), not the native heathen Traladarans, and not necessarily related to one of the 12 immortals.

Still thinking about the Forgiven...

And I can think of threads to weave in Vanity as the party goes through the Caves of Chaos...


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## Voidrazor (Jan 11, 2011)

Here's my first stab at Vellekhyr.


Vellekhyr Ariondánthe 

Lifepaths: Born Etharch, lead to wilderness, Forrester, lead to protector, Ranger
Age: 162
Stats: Wil: B6, Per: B5, Pow: B2, For: B5, Agl: B6, Spd: B5
Attributes: Ref: B5, Steel: B6, Health: B6, MW: B9
Circles: B2, Resources: B1

Beliefs:

I am the doom of my people. Finding a way to cheat my fate is more important than my honor
The stars have shown that my companions are the key to keeping the conflict between houses limited to human lands. I must draw them into the intrigue while watching their backs.
?

Instincts:

Words are more dangerous than blades. Always consult the stars before engaging in verbal duels (of wits)
I f I sense physical danger use Threne of the Chameleon
Remain wary of men. Most as more treacherous than beasts for the forest

Traits: [Dt] Etharchal, [Char] Stern, [C-o for Oratory] Driven, [Char] Born Under the Silver Stars*, [Dt] Essence of the Earth*, [Char] Fair and Statuesque*, [Dt] First Born*, [Dt] Grief 6*
* denotes elven common traits

Skills: Elven Script B2, Song of Arbors B3, Observation B2, Forest-wise B2, Song of the Eldar B2, Stealthy B2, Sprinting B2, Bow B6, Lyric of Healing B3,
Threne of the Chameleon B6, Oratory B4

Reputation: 1D with Borderland forest dwellers (friend of the wood)

Affiliations: 1D with Borderland circle of spies for Cynfaen Tliel'laxu (third in line for House Tliel'laxu, a lineage with selkie blood and least loyal of the minor houses sworn to Karameikos), 1D with elven etharchs (from Etharchal)

Gear: ROTM Bow, traveling gear, elven shoes


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## Mathalus (Jan 11, 2011)

That's pretty rad.

Although no melee skills? Am I the only one with any? I'm supposed to be the magic-user. If we get into a fight our party is going to scatter like the wind. Which will be pretty fun, actually. 

Thanks for grabbing the Lyric of Healing, by the way. That sounds useful.

Also, didn't we come here together? What does your character think about my character? Does that fit into the "fate and stars" stuff only?

Last question, does your character want to kill humanoid monsters in caves with me?


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Here's my first stab at Vellekhyr.
> 
> 
> Vellekhyr Ariondánthe
> ...




Cool. Interesting stuff.

I think it would be good to have one Belief about the Caves of Chaos/the Keep environment... something about why Vellekhyr is going there. 

You can delay writing it a bit, but it should be completely formed when the party leaves the Keep for the Caves of Chaos.




Voidrazor said:


> Instincts:
> 
> Words are more dangerous than blades. Always consult the stars before engaging in verbal duels (of wits)
> I f I sense physical danger use Threne of the Chameleon
> Remain wary of men. Most as more treacherous than beasts for the forest




I like the Instincts for the most part... very characterful.

The last one doesn't imply an action, though. It's more Belief-y. It's one thing to stay guarded & wary... it's another thing to remind Men of your superior breeding, or to dismiss the concerns of any Man, or something like that.



Voidrazor said:


> Reputation: 1D with Borderland forest dwellers (friend of the wood)
> 
> Affiliations: 1D with Borderland circle of spies for Cynfaen Tliel'laxu (third in line for House Tliel'laxu, a lineage with selkie blood and least loyal of the minor houses sworn to Karameikos), 1D with elven etharchs (from Etharchal)
> 
> Gear: ROTM Bow, traveling gear, elven shoes




Alright... forest dwellers & spies for the setting. Cool.


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> I am not sure what to do here next. I don't have BW. Should I get it?  Hiw do I create beliefs?




Okay, reposting this stuff & also sending a PM to move things along..

*Step 1* in the process is always Concept. You've got it down:



HandofMystra said:


> I did a bit of reading (thank you  Wikipedia). I am pulled to be a Traladaran paladin: Village Born, Temple  Acolyte, Bannerman. I do not know these lifepath categories. He is  pulled (is this a Belief?) to search for the heritage and ancient  dignity of his people in the ruins around Karameiko. His is protective  of those of his village and would be more likely to follow a  Traladaran  (are there such) than the current law. He is of a ancient noble family,  but has had a pretty gritty existence in the village.
> How is that for a start?
> Maybe he has heard that this an artifact out in the ruins that details  the culture of ancients, which would interest him.




Alright... *Steps 2, 3, 4*. Lifepaths, Age, Stats.

_Lifepaths:_
Born Villager, crossover to Religious Setting, to Temple Acolyte, crossover to Professional Soldier, to Bannerman

_Age:_ 21

_Stats:_
See the stat descriptions at Downloads - Burning Wiki for more info...

The Mental stats are Will & Perception. You have 8 points to divide between the two.

Will is like D&D Charisma... both personality & force of character.
Perception is what it is. The ability to sense things.

The Physical stats are Power, Forte, Agility, Speed. You have 17 points to divide between the four.
Power is physical strength. Forte is like D&D endurance.
Agility is anything requiring manual dexterity & quickness in a small space. Speed is straight line speed, the ability to cover distance.

... ... ...

*Step 5*, I will calculate myself. These are all derived stats.
*
Step 6* is skills.

_Skill Points:_
9 pts, to be split between the following lifepath skills:


 Conspicuous*, Doctrine, Read*, Riding, Sword, Temple-wise, Write, Armor Training**
 (* Required (1 point minimum), ** Costs 2 pts to unlock & does not advance)

Plus, 3 General skill points to spend
(Can be spent on any general skill or any lifepath skill. Ask if you are  looking for something. Oratory (speaking to a crowd) and/or Persuasion  (convincing individuals) may be something you want)

Skill descriptions:


Conspicuous is the skill to make yourself seen, and to stand out in a crowd. This is what Bannermen use to "say", _I am here & I carry the banner for my Lord_.
 Doctrine is knowledge/lore about the religious faith.
 Temple-wise (and any "wise") is the BW style of knowledge skill. It  probably takes some explaining... I'll see if I've done it already in my  Blog here. Otherwise, that's the next topic for my blog.
 Armor Training eliminates some movement penalties for wearing heavier  armor. If you want to wear heavier armor, you should invest in this  skill.
Okay... this is plenty for now. I'll be sending this in a PM shortly.


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Potential Instincts
> I always search corpses for antecedents (enchanting materials).
> I always practice my ability by imbuing my allies’ weapons.




Actually, the antecedents thing is okay, having re-read the Enchanting section (haven't looked at it in a while)... I guess that's the thing here.

Which one fits what Ferrantos is about? Both of these are decent for the skill-type Instinct.

If Ferrantos is more about weapons, then I think the second one is better. If Ferrantos was more about healing, or making funky teas/curatives, then the antecedents is better.

...

The specific antecedent for the blade to kill Ferrantos' master is better than generic stuff, though. I can tie a lot of the other characters' ideas together with that...


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## Mathalus (Jan 12, 2011)

Okay, here's updated Ferrantos. As always, your comments are welcome.


Name: Ferrantos                  Age : 21
Concept/Bio: Vengeful Metal Artificer/ The Thyantian Bastard
Lifepaths: Born Noble, Arcane Devotee, Lead to City Dweller, Sorcerer
Stats: Wi: B5, Pe: B4, Po: B3, Fo: B4, Ag: B4, Sp: B6, Speed Mult.: x3.5
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B6, Hes: 5, Hea: B4, MW: B9, Circles: B2, Resources: B0
PTGS: Su: B3  Li: B5  Mi: B6  Se: B7  Tr: B8  Mo: B9
Beliefs: 
  To kill Master Vide I must create a blade sharp enough to make a stone bleed. I need to find a monster with a sharp mind to use as an antecedent.
  Vellekhyr always protects me. For his sake I will only take antecedents from monsters.
  I need money badly. Now that I’m back in Karameikos, I’ll demand some from my noble half-brother Auromos. 
Instincts: 
  If I am surprised I cast "The Fear!"
  I always practice my ability by imbuing my allies’ weapons.
  If someone uses religion to justify their actions around me, I scoff.
Traits: [Dt] Mark of Privilege, [Char] Base Humility, [Dt] Gifted, [Dt] Missing Eye
Skills: Alchemy B3, Ancient Languages B2, Calligraphy B2, Enchanting B5, Persuasion B2, Read B2, Research B2, Sorcery B5, Spear B2, Symbology B2, Write B2
Affiliations: +1D w/ Nobility (Mark of Privilege).
Relationships: Master Artificer Vide (Minor, hateful/rival), Auromos, my Noble Half-Brother (Minor, immediate family)
Gear: Spear (RotM), Plated Leather Armor (RotM), Alchemy Kit, Shoes, Clothes, Travelling Gear
Spells: Call of Iron, The Fear, Shards, Eldritch Shield


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## Voidrazor (Jan 12, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> That's pretty rad.
> 
> Although no melee skills? Am I the only one with any? I'm supposed to be the magic-user. If we get into a fight our party is going to scatter like the wind. Which will be pretty fun, actually.
> 
> ...




I assumed Hand of Mystra's character would handle most of the hand to hand. My default isn't completely awful in a pinch.

The great thing about Lyric of Healing is that it works differently than and synergistically with normal healing skills. The not so great thing is that it doesn't count as treatment, just a boost to the recovery test.

Yes, we did come together. But I figure Vellekhyr has visited the borderlands many times over recent decades. He sees the place as a focal point for larger, soon to emerge, conflicts, hinted at by his astrology-like skill.

Vellekhyr is conflicted about Ferrantos. When F. was apprenticed to Vide, I imagine they got along great. But now, V. believes that he needs to use F. for a couple of fate related things, and feels guilty about it. So I'm hoping to be able to portray a tense undercurrent with no obvious source.

I still need to work out V.'s third belief, which should figure into why he's going with F. to the caves.  V. will probably hate the idea of killing things just because said beings are chaotic and have valuable pieces parts. Yetfor reasons I'm still working out, he'll be more or less resigned to it.


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Yes, we did come together. But I figure Vellekhyr has visited the borderlands many times over recent decades. He sees the place as a focal point for larger, soon to emerge, conflicts, hinted at by his astrology-like skill.
> 
> Vellekhyr is conflicted about Ferrantos. When F. was apprenticed to Vide, I imagine they got along great. But now, V. believes that he needs to use F. for a couple of fate related things, and feels guilty about it. So I'm hoping to be able to portray a tense undercurrent with no obvious source.
> 
> I still need to work out V.'s third belief, which should figure into why he's going with F. to the caves.  V. will probably hate the idea of killing things just because said beings are chaotic and have valuable pieces parts. Yetfor reasons I'm still working out, he'll be more or less resigned to it.




Cool. I'm not sure Vellekhyr's remorse regarding the denizens of the Caves will affect my rebalancing of the dungeons for the Burning Wheel setup, but it'll be some factor in the story.

And I have already laid down some concepts that point to bigger issues, bigger problems from what you find in the Caves. How it dovetails into all the character concepts, we can decipher than through play. There's big stuff in the Caves, but I don't know what it means yet.


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Okay, here's updated Ferrantos. As always, your comments are welcome.
> 
> 
> Name: Ferrantos                  Age : 21
> ...




I like the one about Vellekhyr and monsters. Part of it will be defining what makes a monster, especially on the Borderlands.

The interaction with Auromos will be interesting. Maybe he will be part of a group of Knights Errant stationed at the Keep, raiding the monsters in the Borderlands for wealth & glory.

I think the one about imbuing weapons could use some sort of frame around it. "When I am sitting in front of a fire, I always imbue my allies' weapons", for instance.

The "sharp mind" thing... I have something in mind, as said, and it could correspond to the dread & remorse that Vellekhyr feels about going into the Caves.


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## Mathalus (Jan 12, 2011)

I'll take your suggestion about imbuing around a fire. How about:

I imbue my allies weapons in the dark. That is when I am most powerful.

Maybe it could eventually transalte into a +1Ob to imbue during daylight hours?


Vellekhyr is pretty closely tied to Ferrantos through backstory and some other beliefs. Maybe there is some room for one of his beliefs to tie in to Constance? 

Maybe someone as guilty feeling as Vellekhyr is needs a confessor?


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 12, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> It would be helpful IMO to go strictly by formula and have 1 Belief tied directly to the situation (being clear about why Constance wants to go to the Caves of Chaos, like a missing sister?) and a 2nd Belief tied to another character, as the enchanter & elf are woven together.




Thanks for this -- I chose only to afford the sister at 1 pt, and that meant hatred and minor.  I didn't think I had the investment to make more of her for the story. 

Perhaps: My sister is missing, and I believe they abductors were coming for me. 

As for tying to the party specifically, I always find these hard to write without being manipulative of other players -- it's hard to define how my actions will change based on others. Esp. with the yet-to-be-named Paladin, who probably believes in the religion, which Constance does not. 

Perhaps: The paladin has saved me once, and that's a debt I will discharge with something I actually believe in.

Malathus, thanks for the comments.  Constance has her fists -- if there is fighting, I like the thought of her pounding away at something and yet, with the Tidy aspect, always having the blood spatters go elsewhere as she remains elegant (though if you preferred, we could make it staff or something;  I'm not great on scripting in any case)-- , and Vellekhyr has a Bow.  

Besides, maybe we won't actually do any fighting...


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> Thanks for this -- I chose only to afford the sister at 1 pt, and that meant hatred and minor.  I didn't think I had the investment to make more of her for the story.
> 
> Perhaps: My sister is missing, and I believe they abductors were coming for me.




As I read it, "Minor" means the NPC's impact in the setting, so a King would not be minor, but a serving wench could be.

On the other hand, Relationships need to be accessible without a Circles check... but Vanity is "hateful"...

I like her as a missing person. It is probably the coolest way to get Constance into the Caves.



Kobold Stew said:


> As for tying to the party specifically, I always find these hard to write without being manipulative of other players -- it's hard to define how my actions will change based on others. Esp. with the yet-to-be-named Paladin, who probably believes in the religion, which Constance does not.
> 
> Perhaps: The paladin has saved me once, and that's a debt I will discharge with something I actually believe in.




I don't like "somethings", but I like the concept. 

Maybe it ties to the abduction theme. The abductors weren't small (Kobolds), but man-sized... Hooded, masked - basically, no way to recognize personal features. You can throw in one detail or two as a "lead" for investigating, but nothing about race/species.



Kobold Stew said:


> Besides, maybe we won't actually do any fighting...




We will probably offend Gary Gygax somewhat if this happens, although I will not object.

Some of the humanoids will be more resistant to communication, however. And there are other denizens of the Caves of Chaos...


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> I'll take your suggestion about imbuing around a fire. How about:
> 
> I imbue my allies weapons in the dark. That is when I am most powerful.
> 
> Maybe it could eventually transalte into a +1Ob to imbue during daylight hours?




Yeah, we can do something for sure.

Maybe it can come at a trait vote down the line. Flip through the existing stuff & see if there's something fun first.


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## Mathalus (Jan 12, 2011)

There's Sight of the Owl and Nocturnal in the Monster Burner. You're right though, let's see how it gets played out and what happens during the trait vote. Anyway, I'll use that as my instinct unless you have more comments.

"I always imbue my allies' weapons in the dark. That is when I am most powerful."


So, I think I'm just about set. Kobold Stew and Voidrazor have pretty tight characters as well. I think only Vellekhyr needs one last belief. What are the prospects for starting with three players is Hand of Mystara doesn't post again?


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## engrishonly (Jan 12, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> So, I think I'm just about set. Kobold Stew and Voidrazor have pretty tight characters as well. I think only Vellekhyr needs one last belief. What are the prospects for starting with three players is Hand of Mystara doesn't post again?




I would really like a "tank" type character in the mix.

How about this...
I saw someone asking for a BW PbP game on the BW forum. I'll shoot him a PM. 

If we get both HandofMystara and another player, great. We'll go with 5 players.

If not, we'll go with 4.


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> I am not sure what to do here next. I don't have BW. Should I get it?  Hiw do I create beliefs?




Oh, for everyone... Luke has the Beliefs commentary from the "Adventure Burner" on the wiki.

Burning Wheel Beliefs Commentary chapter

Very useful to read through for creating Beliefs. It's probably tougher for someone unfamiliar with the rules, but it'll shed some light on the philosophy & "art of roleplaying crap" that Luke talks about.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 13, 2011)

In the words of Daffy Duck, "Let'thh twy that again...":

My sister is missing, and I believe the red-hooded abductors were coming for me.

The paladin has saved my life, and that's a debt I will discharge by killing a foe when he shows mercy.


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> In the words of Daffy Duck, "Let'thh twy that again...":
> 
> My sister is missing, and I believe the red-hooded abductors were coming for me.
> 
> The paladin has saved my life, and that's a debt I will discharge by killing a foe when he shows mercy.




Cool.

Hey, you can even give Constance some sort of funky totem or memory to carry around if you like... sort of like Conan the Barbarian (the Arnold movie), his memory of the twin snake symbol of Thulsa Doom. That would play right into some of the stuff in the Caves...

I kind of like the idea of killing a helpless foe for the Paladin, who shouldn't be doing that sort of thing... is it going to fit with the "forgiven" stuff, and the not-quite-so-villainous humanoids thing?


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 13, 2011)

Thanks. I'll be honest -- I no longer really know what's happening. The sister was added only because there was nothing else to spend a point on.  I'm happy to commit to it, but it's not where I invested the character, at first.  

I really don't know the story of the Keep (beyond what you've typed in) -- it wasn't clear to me that it had to be a Dungeon crawl... The initial post had talked about character-driven sandbox-type stuff. Constance had developed in response to that (healer/talky thief); now we're looking for a tank.  

If that's what you need, I can burn something like Born Noble - Footsoldier - Sergeant. 

I had offered to write a backstory; you said just the char sheet; now we're talkig flashback images. I'm just not getting what you want.


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

EDIT:
Mathalus sums it up below.

I'm looking for information at this point. I'm trying to draw out more setting from you.

I'm not criticising at this point.

Back to the original post...

...

Well, Thor's advice is to put this in front of the players...

(Again, same quote, straight from the module, written by Gary Gygax...)



			
				Gary Gygax said:
			
		

> The Realm of mankind is narrow and  constricted. Always the forces of  Chaos press upon its borders, seeking  to enslave its populace, rape its  riches, and steal its treasures. If it  were not for a stout few, many  in the Realm would indeed fall prey to  the evil which surrounds them.  Yet, there are always certain exceptional  and brave members of  humanity, as well as similar individuals among its  allies - dwarves,  elves, and halflings - who rise above the common  level and join battle  to stave off the darkness which would otherwise  overwhelm the land.  Bold adventurers from the Realm set off for the Borderlands to seek   their fortune. It is these adventurers who, provided they survive the   challenge, carry the battle to the enemy. Such adventurers meet the   forces of Chaos in a testing ground where only the fittest will return   to relate the tale. Here, these individuals will become skilled in their   profession, be it fighter or magic-user, cleric or thief. They will be   tried in the fire of combat, those who return, hardened and more fit.   True, some few who do survive the process will turn from Law and good   and serve the masters of Chaos, but most will remain faithful and ready   to fight chaos wherever it threatens to infect the Realm.
> 
> You are indeed members of that exceptional class, adventurers who have journeyed to the *KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS*  in search of fame and fortune. Of course you are inexperienced, but you   have your skills and a heart that cries out for adventure. You have it   in you to become great, but you must gain experience and knowledge and   greater skill. There is much to learn, and you are willing and eager  to be about it! Each of you has come with everything which could  possibly be given you  to help. Now you must fend for yourselves; your  fate is in your hands,  for better or worse.
> 
> ...




That's the situation you have in front of you... a dungeon-based sandbox.

We have the Keep & its environs.

I've got stuff about the setting. I can give you more. There's a Chaos Cult. There's humanoids.

There will be more rumors you can pick up at the Keep... basically, stuff that I'm picking up from you all as you put together Beliefs, Affiliations, Reputations, Relationships.

Some of the stuff that has come out... a group of Knights Errant, including Ferrantos' brother. A band of Elven spies, and allied forest-dwellers around the area of the Keep (which I think will be Halflings & Some Elves). There's Vanity, Constance's sister, who may be kidnapped by the Chaos Cult... she's gone, in any case. There's the Forgiven adventurers, who feel guilt for the things they've done (which I might be connecting to the Halflings, and I probably will connect to the Knights Errant).

What do I need from you?

EDIT: deleted

I'm looking for information from you to mine for setting details.

This is to weave my vision together with yours.

I know what my railroad looks like, so I'm trying to figure out where you all are going.


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## Mathalus (Jan 13, 2011)

I think Constance is pretty close to being done. I think any five of these beliefs are useable. 

Beliefs: 
1.The more people fear the wild, the more they need me. (States her characters thoughts, good to go).
2.I can pardon those without Faith (non-humans). (This is cool, since you could actually start swaying the humanoid races if we can start talking to them).
3.Men are fools, swayed by a pretty face. (This is like an artha mine up ins!)
4.My sister is missing, and I believe the red-hooded abductors were coming for me. (A reason to go into the caves.)
5.The paladin has saved my life, and that's a debt I will discharge by killing a foe when he shows mercy. (Bam. Persona point if you clear this. Just have to get that Paladin to show up and beat someone down anyway). 


Instincts: Always distrust religious authority. (I'm sure they don't like you either! Maybe this kind of thing is why your sister got snatched.)
When fighting starts, hide. (Appropriate.)
I take unattended small items. (Artha mine!)

Kobold Stew, you've done a good job. I think Constance just has to pick three Beliefs and it's over. If it were my character and I was cruising for artha, I'd probably grab 2,3, and 4. 

Combat will probably happen eventually, but I know my character won't be fighting in any battle where we don't have good odds. Burning Wheel (and reality) is too dang hurtful. I already lost an eye. I'm not getting wounded again. That's the job of the slow characters! 

I like that Constance has this interesting piece of leverage with the pardoner. Maybe what she needs is to recruit some knuckleheads to accompany her into the caves to find her sister. She sounds like leadership material to me.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 13, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Cool. Interesting stuff.
> 
> I think it would be good to have one Belief about the Caves of Chaos/the Keep environment... something about why Vellekhyr is going there.
> 
> You can delay writing it a bit, but it should be completely formed when the party leaves the Keep for the Caves of Chaos.




Cool, I'll make a final proposal while we are at the Keep. Right now I'm leaning toward something along the lines of "the keep is a focal point for an inevitable conflict that may engulf the entire continent. There is a path that will provide the influence to mitigate the disaster. That path requires many bloody and repugnant acts, but it must be tread."




engrishonly said:


> I like the Instincts for the most part... very characterful.
> 
> The last one doesn't imply an action, though. It's more Belief-y. It's one thing to stay guarded & wary... it's another thing to remind Men of your superior breeding, or to dismiss the concerns of any Man, or something like that.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I knew that one was weak. I'm still settling on a replacement.

Could some of the spies, near the top of the organization be facedancers/skindancers? The whole idea behind House Tleil'laxu (and the mention of selkie blood) was to have a medieval version of the Bene Tleilax.


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> I think Constance is pretty close to being done. I think any five of these beliefs are useable.




Yeah, that's the bottom line.

I'm asking questions because I'm trying to figure out what other elements you all want in the setting.

The questions aren't masked criticisms, they are informational for the DM at this point in the evolutions of Constance, Ferrantos, and Vellekhyr.

What I'm trying to draw out (while we await a "tank") is not better characters, but a setting that better fits your characters.


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Cool, I'll make a final proposal while we are at the Keep. Right now I'm leaning toward something along the lines of "the keep is a focal point for an inevitable conflict that may engulf the entire continent. There is a path that will provide the influence to mitigate the disaster. That path requires many bloody and repugnant acts, but it must be tread."




Cool.

I can see many points of convergence between aspects of Vellekhyr's dread vision, Ferrantos' search for an antecedent that helps him slay his master, and the missing sister.

The Keep can easily be a tipping point for a broader chain of events.



Voidrazor said:


> Yeah, I knew that one was weak. I'm still settling on a replacement.
> 
> Could some of the spies, near the top of the organization be facedancers/skindancers? The whole idea behind House Tleil'laxu (and the mention of selkie blood) was to have a medieval version of the Bene Tleilax.




Sure. That'll be cool. Your House wars amongst the Elven clans can mirror some of the interactions between the Dune factions. So Vellekhyr's star is aligned with the Tleil'laxu? Or is this an arrangement of convenience? Is there a Bene Geserit equivalent? And I can see a bit of the Atreides in Vellekhyr with the prophetic vision.

I'll even look into the Paths of Spite for Honored Matres...

How do these structures interact with the Church of Karameikos? I already have ideas for its dark mirror in the Chaos cult...


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## Mathalus (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh man, doppelgangers! I knew I should have gotten Second Sight.


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

Yeah, magic singing Elven doppelgangers. 

Here's the Rogue's Gallery thread for storing your character sheets...

[Burning THAC0] B2 - The Keep on the Borderlands - EN World: D&D / RPG News & Reviews


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## Mathalus (Jan 13, 2011)

Okay, I'm locked in.

I'm getting real antsy to play! If we don't get a tank right away, do you think we could start and see if one joins in a bit? I imagine we'll have a lot of stuff to do at the keep. Like hit my half-bro up for moolah. 

And try to guess who's a doppelganager. (It's not me!)


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Okay, I'm locked in.
> 
> I'm getting real antsy to play! If we don't get a tank right away, do you think we could start and see if one joins in a bit?




Sure, we can muck around the Keep.

Also, if nobody comes, you all could try to round up a gang of fanatics, rabble, criminals, or others to purge the Caves/serve as cannon fodder. (And use skirmish ideas for the R&C rules from the Adventure Burner)


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## Mathalus (Jan 13, 2011)

Now _that_ sounds like a good time had by all. 

Hurry up and throw your characters in the other thread guys! We've got rabble to rouse!


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Could some of the spies, near the top of the organization be facedancers/skindancers? The whole idea behind House Tleil'laxu (and the mention of selkie blood) was to have a medieval version of the Bene Tleilax.




I just flipped through the Character Burner. I didn't see a doppelganger song. 

It doesn't mean we can't burn up one... but it seems more akin to Sorcery or some Mannish magic. It's not really an "Elven" thing, in the Tolkienesque context of BW, since Elves are a purer expression of the "song of creation" - why change form when you are perfect?

So, options & ideas.
1) New Elven song. Break the context of Tolkien-style Elves.
2) Ditch the doppelgangers. Use Threne of the Chameleon instead, and say the Tleil'laxu are mostly uber-isolationist, stern Rangers... Borderline Dark Elves.
3) Use Fey-blooded Humans (Half Elves) with the Gift for the Facedancers.


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## HandofMystra (Jan 13, 2011)

Belief 1. There exist ruins with artifacts that I can use somehow to increase the dignity of the Traladarans and their ancient lines of leaders.
Sorry that I have been so quiet; I feels like a lot to digest


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## engrishonly (Jan 13, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> Belief 1. There exist ruins with artifacts that I can use somehow to increase the dignity of the Traladarans and their ancient lines of leaders.
> Sorry that I have been so quiet; I feels like a lot to digest




Trying any new game is a lot. Let us know what needs more clarification.

A lot of this Belief process is communication & understanding. There's leaps that we have to make, in bringing this stuff together under a shared banner... but it's important to the process of "character burning".

well, my plane is about to board. I'll have comments about the Belief later. It's a good start.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 13, 2011)

My original idea (though I'm not married to it) was that House Tleil'laxu is human, but due to intermarriage with selkies many many generations ago, some of them have a special trait. That trait allows them to skin other humans and wear the skin as a magical disguise. Now the head of House Tleil'laxu just wants to maintain his own powerbase, many leagues from the borderlands. His firstborn son wants to supplant him. But its his second son Cynfaen is highly ambitious. Its Cynfaen who is setting up spy circles throughout the land, lead by skindancer cousins and nephews, but composed of anyone who seems useful. Vellekhyr probably doesn't know about his employer's abilities or affiliations, being content to make a few coins while gathering information that he himself might be able to use.

A Bene Geserit equivalent would be cool too. Perhaps one of the Traladaran houses is composed of matriarchal witches. Or they might work better in charge of one of the religions. If the reverend mother is the head of the Church of Karameikos, there could be a whole papacy dynamic, i.e. the Church supports Karameikos' expansionism (to spread the word) but is a rival for control of the realm.

Should we burn up another house for the Keep to be part of? In addition to stealing stuff from Dune I'd love to grab things from George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. IMO, that series should be the goto for any BW campaign.


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## Mathalus (Jan 13, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> I just flipped through the Character Burner. I didn't see a doppelganger song.
> 
> It doesn't mean we can't burn up one... but it seems more akin to Sorcery or some Mannish magic. It's not really an "Elven" thing, in the Tolkienesque context of BW, since Elves are a purer expression of the "song of creation" - why change form when you are perfect?
> 
> ...




I don't think you have to break context or create a new song. Maybe you could use Antiphon Union to combine Discerner and Song of Form. 

If you want a Tolkien-esque precedent of Elven disguising magic, look to Beren and Luthien entering Angband.


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## Mathalus (Jan 13, 2011)

Also, HandofMystara,  I sent you my email address. Let me know if you need someone to walk you through the character creation process. Maybe we can G-Chat it. It should be quick and painless (except for beliefs and instincts, which require way too much thought!).


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey guys,

I'm  the poster from the BW forums.  I'm working on burning up a "tank" for the group.  I've burned a few characters on my own, so I should be ok with that.  I might need some advice on the setting as I'm not familiar with it, but I'll do some reading.  Oh yeah, there's no more classic tank than the dwarven fighter, so I think that's what I'll go with; unless, the human paladin has dropped and you guys think a human paladin is a better fit.  I'm fine making one of those as well.


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## Mathalus (Jan 13, 2011)

Welcome!

We'd love a dwarven fighter. I hope you can afford all the good dwarven gear with only three lifepaths!


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 13, 2011)

Most likely not, but I plan to work some of that into his beliefs   I'm assuming that the lifepath restrictions of BW still apply for Burning ThacO, meaning, if a LP has a prerequisite LP in BW, that holds for BThacO as well.

That's makes my options for a dwarven fighter limited, but that's ok.  I'll figure something out.


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## engrishonly (Jan 14, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm  the poster from the BW forums.  I'm working on burning up a "tank" for the group.  I've burned a few characters on my own, so I should be ok with that.  I might need some advice on the setting as I'm not familiar with it, but I'll do some reading.  Oh yeah, there's no more classic tank than the dwarven fighter, so I think that's what I'll go with; unless, the human paladin has dropped and you guys think a human paladin is a better fit.  I'm fine making one of those as well.




Go with the Dwarf.

Setting & Situation, just read the Gary Gygax thing that I keep posting here in the thread.

Also, check out the Burning THAC0 document (see the first page of this thread, or the downloads section of the BW wiki).

"Fit" is all about what you bring to the table, and how much you're willing to fight for it!


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## engrishonly (Jan 14, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> My original idea (though I'm not married to it) was that House Tleil'laxu is human, but due to intermarriage with selkies many many generations ago, some of them have a special trait. That trait allows them to skin other humans and wear the skin as a magical disguise. Now the head of House Tleil'laxu just wants to maintain his own powerbase, many leagues from the borderlands. His firstborn son wants to supplant him. But its his second son Cynfaen is highly ambitious. Its Cynfaen who is setting up spy circles throughout the land, lead by skindancer cousins and nephews, but composed of anyone who seems useful. Vellekhyr probably doesn't know about his employer's abilities or affiliations, being content to make a few coins while gathering information that he himself might be able to use.




Ok, cool, that's helpful in conceptualizing it.

Inherent in the Face Dancers is the "dirty" aspect of the Tleilaxu. I acknowledge what Mathalus says about the story of Beren, but I want something twisted & corrupt, at least on the surface.

Are we perhaps linking this back again to Ferrantos' antecedents? And/or his former master?

I am too distracted at the airport to think on it too much further.



Voidrazor said:


> Or they might work better in charge of one of the religions. If the reverend mother is the head of the Church of Karameikos, there could be a whole papacy dynamic, i.e. the Church supports Karameikos' expansionism (to spread the word) but is a rival for control of the realm.
> 
> Should we burn up another house for the Keep to be part of? In addition to stealing stuff from Dune I'd love to grab things from George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire. IMO, that series should be the goto for any BW campaign.




I've not read the Song of Ice & Fire, so sadly I cannot incorporate it without you suggesting themes, which you are obliged to do in your Beliefs & Instincts.

I do like the Church of Karameikos being "politics" like the Bene Geserit. With our Pardoner being female, the matriarchical form is at least preserved.

They've subverted Traladaran mythology & made it a part of their faith... Does that make the Traladarans like the Fremen?

The Keep... It's a trading post, it's the important boundary between the civilized & the barbarous. I don't know if the Castellan of the Keep is a good guy or an enemy, and none of you have bought the relationship.

I'm content to let the Keep evolve/emerge through play.


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## engrishonly (Jan 14, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> Belief 1. There exist ruins with artifacts that I can use somehow to increase the dignity of the Traladarans and their ancient lines of leaders.




Alright. And don't despair over this. Writing Beliefs isn't very easy, and discussion is a part of what will make the game cool.

I like the underlying concept. Good idea.

However, I don't like "somehow" or "something". It doesn't help me. Sometimes, "somethings" are okay, but since we're not well acquainted, providing us with specifics will give us more insights into you & avoid any misinterpretations on my part (as the Burning Wheel Dungeon Master for this game).

So... What to do?

Provide names, details. What does the Paladin seek? What will that artifact do for the Traladaran people? What does the Paladin risk to claim this artifact? Any or all of these questions (and whatever might help you) are good for me to know.

Burning Wheel is based on what you bring as a player, and so you have to express it so I can help you get it to the "tabletop", so the other players can help/hinder the story in order to make it awesome.

You want a magic sword for your character? Then write about it in a Belief! Your character wants to be the Lord of the Keep? Then write about it in a Belief.

By putting these into Beliefs, they are woven into the mechanics of the game!


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 14, 2011)

Okay, here is what I have so far.  I am open to any suggestions/recommendations to make him a better character.  One thing is that I wanted him to begin with an axe/shield to make him even more of a tank but I just didn't have the rps to do it.  Also, anyone know how much a non-dwarven shield costs for a dwarf?  or do dwarves only use dwarven shields (20 rps!!!).  I have another build/concept in mind, which involves a noble born dwarf-axe bearer, but I thought I'd shoot for a rugged soldier type for now.

Name: Aurvang
Concept/Bio: A young, but seasoned host soldier looking for adventure.
Lifepaths: Born Clansman, Delver, Lead to Dwarven Host, Foot Soldier
Age : 51
Stats: Wi: B4, Pe: B4, Po: B4, Fo: B5, Ag: B4, Sp: B4, Speed Mult.: x3
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B5, Hes: 6, Hea: B6, MW: B11, Greed: B3, Circles: B2, Resources: B0
PTGS: Su: B3  Li: B6  Mi: B8  Se: B9  Tr: B10  Mo: B11
Beliefs: 
  Never leave a dwarf behind.  Exceptions can be made for men and elves.
  Battle has made me quick to anger; ale and my hammer are my only means of release.
  Only I know Lofar is an oathbreaker.  I will expose him to the host by recovering Thror's Axe from the Cave's before he does.
  Oath: I will find Gloi in the Cave of Chaos and take him back to Rockhome alive, fulfilling my oath to my clan.
Instincts: 
  When angered or insulted I always resort to violence.
  Never turn down a drink, unless it is wine.
  When underground, trust my instincts.  They have saved me more than once.
Traits: [Dt] Accustomed to the Dark, [Char] Bearded, [Dt] Greed, [Dt] Oathsworn, [Dt] Shaped from Earth and Stone, [Dt] Stout, [Dt] Tough, [Dt] Deep Sense, [Char] Red-Blooded
Skills: Armor Training, Axe B3, Brawling B2, Drunking B2, Excavation B2, Foraging B2, Hammer B3, Shield Training, Tunnel-Wise B2
Affiliations: 
Reputations: 
Relationships: Gloi, cousin and fellow host member (Minor, other family), Lofar, host captain . (Minor, hateful/rival)
Gear: Dwarven-made Chainmail, Hammer (RoTM), Traveling Gear, Sturday Shoes, Clothes
Property: 
Spells: 
Weapons: 
Bare Fisted I:B2 M:B4 S:B6 Add 2 VA 0 Fast Shortest
Hammer (RoTM) I:B4 M:B8 S:B12 Add 2 VA 2 Unwieldy Long Two Handed May Great Strike


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## Mathalus (Jan 14, 2011)

Looks awesome. Do you want to start out knowing any of us from before? Or do you think that we would obviously recruit you since you are generally rockin' at going into caves?

Also, when you are a human, shields are free with your suit of armor. If you aren't springing for the Dwarven shield, I would just grab one for free, especially if you already paid for Dwarven Chainmail. They literally don't have a cost anywhere in the book for anyone. 

But I'm not the GM.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 14, 2011)

Yeah, I was wondering about that.  If the GM allows it, then I may take an axe and shield instead of the hammer.  I rather like both my relationships, so I don't want to give one up in order to have both weapons.  Of course, it probably won't be that hard to procure an axe and shield in game, especially if we are delving into ruins.  

As for character relationships, I'm a big fan.  I'll look over the other characters and see what I can come up with.  I like the "contracted to lead non-dwarves instead tight, damp, dark tunnels" too.  Yeah, after reading the Background Gygax info again, I really like the idea of Aurvang being hired to lead the group into the Caves.  He has reason enough to go to the Keep, so why not have some company, especially since his cousin hasn't come back from there.  I think that is enough to get started.  The question is, was Aurvang contracted by everyone or just you?

Ok, I just reread the Dwarf section of the character burner.  It recommends a starting dwarf have two Oaths to begin with - one from his past (I think I covered this already) and one regarding the immediate present (why he's in the mess he's in).  

I think I'll toss out "Battle has made me quick to anger.  Ale and my hammer are my only means of release" and replace it with an oath to another character.  I don't have any relationships to tie it to, so another player is the best option, and a great one at that.  I'm thinking that my oath could be to guide one player to a specific location in the Caves of Chaos, perhaps to the lair of that hyper-intelligent monster you are looking for, or to some other interesting location.  The question then remains, why would I swear an oath to do that?  Right now I'm thinking that it could tie into my Greed; Another player has hired me to lead them to location X; I've sworn an oath to do so in order to get something I really want.  This could be information about Lofar, or maybe an item (dwarven made axe or hammer), or even just gold or Nog.  Mmmmm Nog.  I can't wait to open the Nogger skill


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## Mathalus (Jan 14, 2011)

We might have to figure that out in game. Ferrantos would certainly accept the back up. However, it seems like Constance, with her missing sister and her persuasion skills might be a good person to coax your dwarf into bringing a bunch of humans and an elf along. 

Check out what Kobold Stew has written about her in the more recent pages. It's an interesting concept. It would work well if you are feeling guilty about something too. Although dwarves have a very interesting relationship with duty. Things could get complicated... but maybe in a good way?


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## engrishonly (Jan 14, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Okay, here is what I have so far.  I am open to any suggestions/recommendations to make him a better character.  One thing is that I wanted him to begin with an axe/shield to make him even more of a tank but I just didn't have the rps to do it.  Also, anyone know how much a non-dwarven shield costs for a dwarf?  or do dwarves only use dwarven shields (20 rps!!!).  I have another build/concept in mind, which involves a noble born dwarf-axe bearer, but I thought I'd shoot for a rugged soldier type for now.
> 
> Name: Aurvang
> Concept/Bio: A young, but seasoned host soldier looking for adventure.
> ...




Since it's regular Chainmail (of Dwarf make), it can't be the uberawesome Dwarf Shield, but I'll defer a final decision on that until I flip through the book again.

Also, I love the Delver path for a Dwarven adventurer.

Instincts. I like the first & second. The third one? "Trust my instincts" is kind of like using a word to explain the definition of a word. Refer to the trait specifically, like, "When walking underground, always use my Deep Sense" (or something worded far better than thar).

I'll think about the Beliefs. I like that you thought about two NPCs, but maybe I'd just focus my efforts on one for a tighter storyline.

Looking good, anyway.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 14, 2011)

Interesting.

[MENTION=23484]Kobold Stew[/MENTION] - any ideas for why Constance might have persuaded a dwarven soldier to help her?  I don't think a dwarf would make an oath lightly, so it'd have to be something pretty big.  

I think Aurvang's drinking could definitely explain how he knows Constance and even her sister, Vanity.


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## Mathalus (Jan 14, 2011)

That's a good point. It might make sense to just know her rather than have an oath to her already. 

Yeah, the third instinct should be more specific.

Do you always know the way out of a cave?
Do you always know how far underground you are?
Do you always have your axe out?

Your instinct should be specific so you can grab artha for it, or it should give you some kind of mechanical advantage. Try a couple permutations. Engrishonly gives good advice on this kind of thing.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 14, 2011)

Ok, let me know about the NPC's and beliefs.  

I need some time to think about it; again, suggestions are welcome.  Today's a busy day so I might not have too much time to work on it, but what about something like,

"When underground always use Deep-sense to locate an exit tunnel."

or, stemming from his soldiering background

"When underground I always have my hammer/axe-shield at the ready."

I could get rid of my first instinct and take these two, or some variation of them.  I rather like the drinking one.  Drunking tests...

Also, I wasn't trying to scope out a Dwarven Shield (that's a Gray shade item!); that'd probably be the equivalent of a lvl Dnd character with a +3 item.  I was just thinking a regular old target shield.


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## engrishonly (Jan 14, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Ok, let me know about the NPC's and beliefs.
> 
> I need some time to think about it; again, suggestions are welcome.  Today's a busy day so I might not have too much time to work on it, but what about something like,
> 
> ...




With the NPCs, pick one to tie into the situation at hand, and reserve the other one for the future/a less defined role that can emerge through play.

Having the axe ready while underground is only going to help if we go into peaceful underground settings because you'll likely go armed into hostile territory. Is this what you want?

My creativity level is just low right now.

The Deep Sense one works well enough. I was going to be more specific, but that only works in a mapcrawl DnD setting. The way you have it worded is fine for our purposes.



mistrlittlejeans said:


> Also, I wasn't trying to scope out a Dwarven Shield (that's a Gray shade item!); that'd probably be the equivalent of a lvl Dnd character with a +3 item.  I was just thinking a regular old target shield.




Okay, feel free to take a Shield of Dwarf-make (like the Dwarf-made armor) if you use a 1-hand axe... but if you're taking a 2-handed weapon, then I don't think you should take the shield.


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## HandofMystra (Jan 14, 2011)

I am stuck trying to think how my Traladorian could be a patriot to his people and be in a party  with a Thyatia. Not hopeless, but I cannot think about this on the weekend, so I open to ideas.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 14, 2011)

Ok, cool.  I like Gloi as the NPC, mainly because I think the other NPC, Lofar, could be tied into my search for Gloi.  I dropped the relationship with Lofar.  It can spring up organically through play.

I'll drop the Belief pertaining to Lofar and add the Deep-sense one, keeping my original first belief as well (I kind of like it too, especially given the stock make up of the group).  From a background perspective, the Deep-sense belief stems from Aurvang battling orcs, goblins, and trolls within caves/tunnels.  An exit was always very important for survival.

Dropping the second relationship gives me the rps to spring for a light axe (1-handed), so taking a dwarven-made shield with my armor will give me some versatility in combat.  I've always been partial to 2-handed hammer-wielding dwarves anyways, but a shield is a good thing.  Since it is dwarven made, it has the same bonus as the chainmail, right? (ignore the first 1 on an armor test).

Aurvang has been updated on the Rogue's Gallery.


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## engrishonly (Jan 14, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> I am stuck trying to think how my Traladorian could be a patriot to his people and be in a party  with a Thyatia. Not hopeless, but I cannot think about this on the weekend, so I open to ideas.




If you're stuck, then use it. Use that conflict to fuel the fires of your character!

Cooperation is not a requirement. In fact, too much cooperation makes for a dull game. Fighting monsters might be one of the primary duties in D&D, but in Burning Wheel, the monster is you. Yes, you run into "monsters" on your path to glory, but the great work of the game is in you realizing who your character is & what he's meant to be.

So, what do you do in the Burning Wheel? Build a Belief around the internal conflict. For instance, here's one idea (kind of weak, but I wrote it quickly): "I will work with these Thyatians to cleanse the Borderlands for *my god/deity*, but I do not love their kind. There will be a reckoning when the quest is complete."

Figure out what the nature of your character's conflict is, and give voice to it. "The Thyatians killed my father. Though I serve justice in the name of *my deity/god*, I will always carry hatred towards the Thyatian bastards." Your character is a Paladin... why not write something completely un-Paladin-y about Thyatians? Something that will propel your character forward, over the edge! That's what we're talking about.

What you don't want is to be fake or to ignore this issue. So it's GREAT that you have internal conflict in your character. This makes for a better game! 

Don't be troubled by this sort of thing... it's a great thing to build the character around!


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## HandofMystra (Jan 15, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> I am stuck trying to think how my Traladorian could be a patriot to his people and be in a party  with a Thyatian. Not hopeless, but I cannot think about this on the weekend, so I open to ideas.



I think that there is some diversity of the clans on how they stand with the Thyatian. The clan that I am banner to can be one that has decided to be at least neutral in regards to the Thyatians.


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## engrishonly (Jan 15, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> I think that there is some diversity of the clans on how they stand with the Thyatian. The clan that I am banner to can be one that has decided to be at least neutral in regards to the Thyatians.




The clan is one thing.

The character is another. 

Push your character towards conflict. Conflict builds strength. Don't settle for neutrality.

If the clan is neutral or friendly to Thyatians, then maybe your character also has a conflict with the clan (the "Braveheart" version of William Wallace & the Scottish nobility & Robert the Bruce)!

Your character is seeking to restore the ancient rites & glories of the Traladaran people. What is in the way? That's stuff that should feed into your character's Beliefs & Instincts.

In the Burning Wheel, it is your duty to figure out how your character can achieve greatness... and then you have to demand it! Fight for it! Beliefs are at the core of that greatness.


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## HandofMystra (Jan 15, 2011)

Maybe I don't understand. How can my character be in party with someone with whom he has that much conflict. Don't we have to want to save one another's lives?


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## engrishonly (Jan 15, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> Maybe I don't understand. How can my character be in party with someone with whom he has that much conflict. Don't we have to want to save one another's lives?




As an example, from another PbP game, Mathalus is playing Prince Burik... the blooded ruler of a Dwarven hold. He wants a magic crown, so he can show his father who is boss. And he's willing to work with oathbreakers & outcasts to get this crown because it's so important to him.

I am playing Thurik, the brother of Burik. Thurik swore an oath to his father, the former Prince of the hold, to accept Burik as his new Prince. Thurik broke that oath, and was outcast from the hold. Thurik wants the crown for himself so that he can claim the Dwarven hold for himself, and advance himself to be the Prince.

The two of them are working together because each brings skills & resources that the other one lacks, and finding the crown is impossible without the other.

(Burik would just as soon be rid of Thurik, and Thurik would rather have Burik's head on a pike... but doing so would not get either of them closer to the prize!)

...

Your character doesn't have to like his companions in order to cooperate & to accomplish things. Think about Sturm Brightblade & Raistlin Majere, if you've read the old Dragonlance books. (Damn, I wish I had some more recent fiction to put up there...)

The fact that the others can help your character is reason enough to tolerate them, provided that the goal is lofty & compelling enough.

In the "Braveheart" movie, William Wallace enlisted & depended on the support of the Nobility at the Battle of Falkirk... so you can work with those you dislike (or even despise) if it gets you closer to where you really want to get to.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 15, 2011)

HandofMystra - What about a belief showing that you are willing to work with Thyatians for the time being because it serves your interest of keeping the borders safe.  There's nothing saying that you have to like them, or even save them if they fall in harm's way.  They are just tools for a purpose.  

That said, there's no reason why your belief couldn't/shouldn't change over time.  You could decide that not all Thyatians are bad, or you could decide they aren't even worth working with.  Another layer to that is your faith; I'm assuming all Thyatians are heathens according to your faith, so that could make for a fun belief.  Fun meaning interesting.  

for example, "Thyatians are heathens.  I will work for them as long as it serves Traladarn, but I will not spare them my sword should our paths diverge."

As an aside, I haven't played BW before, but I have played Mouse Guard, which is extremely similar.  Unlike Dnd, BW (as I understand it) encourages intraparty conflict and independent goals.  It's what drives the game.  If you come from a Dnd background these are hard habits to kick.  I still struggle with them myself.  Don't be afraid to write conflict into your character.  Trust the game and the GM and go for it.


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## engrishonly (Jan 15, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> As an aside, I haven't played BW before, but I have played Mouse Guard, which is extremely similar.  Unlike Dnd, BW (as I understand it) encourages intraparty conflict and independent goals.  It's what drives the game.  If you come from a Dnd background these are hard habits to kick.  I still struggle with them myself.  Don't be afraid to write conflict into your character.  Trust the game and the GM and go for it.




Yes. Conflict is good... perfect situations are bad.

The other thing is to allow the story to emerge through play. Don't feel bad if things aren't perfect now. They shouldn't be!

Don't have perfect resolution before the game isn't even played. Otherwise, there will be no drama.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 15, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> <snip>
> I think Constance just has to pick three Beliefs and it's over. If it were my character and I was cruising for artha, I'd probably grab 2,3, and 4.
> 
> Combat will probably happen eventually, but I know my character won't be fighting in any battle where we don't have good odds. Burning Wheel (and reality) is too dang hurtful. I already lost an eye. I'm not getting wounded again. That's the job of the slow characters!
> ...




Thanks, Malathus. Your clearsight is appreciated. I'm putting her (revised again) into the RG.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 15, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Interesting.
> 
> [MENTION=23484]Kobold Stew[/MENTION] - any ideas for why Constance might have persuaded a dwarven soldier to help her?  I don't think a dwarf would make an oath lightly, so it'd have to be something pretty big.
> 
> I think Aurvang's drinking could definitely explain how he knows Constance and even her sister, Vanity.




I agree. I was thinking that maybe it would go the other way -- I was thinking of a reason to follow you:

I was thinking something like 
* Dwarven secrets will increase my fame, and Aurvang, drunk, will tell me his secrets. 

If this worked, it could replace either the belief about the Paladin or (better?) the one about my sister's abduction. That would then have me coming with you and the paladin (discharging a debt and questing for knowledge), and keep Vanity as an NPC at the keep.

I'm open to advice -- I'll take any two of these three (Dwarf, Paladin, Sister).

Thanks, everyone, for help.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 15, 2011)

I like the one about Aurvang.  Having another character in the group encouraging him to drink would bring a lot to the game.

I also like Constance's instinct to find an exit.  That could lead to some interesting situations when we are underground.


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## engrishonly (Jan 15, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> I agree. I was thinking that maybe it would go the other way -- I was thinking of a reason to follow you:
> 
> I was thinking something like
> * Dwarven secrets will increase my fame, and Aurvang, drunk, will tell me his secrets.
> ...




Let's go Dwarf, then.

It forces me to derail one chain of thought (Halflings & Kobolds in the setting), but that was only a weak one without player character support. 

Now that there's a Dwarf PC in the mix, we've got good reasons to throw things into the setting.

We can throw Dwarves into the Keep, its environs, and the Caves of Chaos. There has to be Dwarven secrets out there to uncover, and that's cool with me.

Outcasts? Rune casters? Oathbreakers? Are the Oathbreakers related to the Pardoner?

What else might the Borderlands hold? Are the Dwarves related to the artifact that the Paladin is after? Is this artifact part of Vellekhyr's dread vision?

Maybe, maybe not. Gotta love emergent play!


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 15, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> I like the one about Aurvang.  Having another character in the group encouraging him to drink would bring a lot to the game.
> 
> I also like Constance's instinct to find an exit.  That could lead to some interesting situations when we are underground.




I'm so pleased that you like it.  We'll put it in.


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## Mathalus (Jan 15, 2011)

HandofMystara,

Think of something that your character needs a sorcerer for. Maybe you need a magic item made? Or researched? Perhaps someone is cursed? 

Conflict within the party is fun, but you need to find an even bigger reason to be forced to work with us. What could lead a Traladorian to work with a Thyatian of such dubious origins? 

I'm from Karameikos orginally. Do we have shared history? Can I help a loved one of yours? Maybe you made a promise to someone about me? I have a half-brother here at the keep. Perhaps he has won you over, and has told you to look after me? 

Did someone turn your friend into a zombie and you need help changing them back? Do you keep your zombie friend locked up in a crypt while occasionally feeding it deer and cursing yourself? Do you need help constructing a spirit lure to catch your friend's soul? Or installing a spirit tether to make them human again? Feel free to get crazy. This is fantasy. 

Or...

Why would a religious zealot do anything? Maybe because GOD SAID.

Remember, to have that Faith trait you need to believe in something otherworldly, sometimes without logical motivations. That's why it's called Faith, and not, Critical Reasoning. Just tell us what your god said in your dream/vision quest/blood ritual/angel molestation. How is your god going to test your faith? What is the best way to serve your god?

There is some crazy cult in that cave. Do you need to kill them? Or help them? 

Or...

Why not try to convert us?

Alternatively, why do you need a confessor? What could tie you to Constance? Have you done something wrong? Fallen out with your god?

Or do you need the friendship of some dwarves so you can arm your uprising?

Maybe you need to watch what the elven spies do? Do you need to report on their activities to your leadership?


Just come up with half a dozen beliefs and Engrishonly will help you winnow them down to three and make them nice and strong.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 15, 2011)

I need to come up with a 4th belief.  I was thinking of playing of my dwarven greed with something like,

"I will find Thror's axe in the Caves of Chaos and become the most renowned dwarf in the Keep."

What do you guys think?  It could potentially play off the beliefs of Ferranatos, Vellykyr, and Constance.


----------



## engrishonly (Jan 15, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> I need to come up with a 4th belief.  I was thinking of playing of my dwarven greed with something like,
> 
> "I will find Thror's axe in the Caves of Chaos and become the most renowned dwarf in the Keep."
> 
> What do you guys think?  It could potentially play off the beliefs of Ferranatos, Vellykyr, and Constance.




What about a situation like "The Sword"?

For HandofMystara, "The Sword" is the (in)famous scenario that Luke Crane (the author behind the Burning Wheel) uses as a demo/convention scenario for introducing BW.

It is structured in a way that the scenario practically never plays out the same way. 4 adventurers, all with conflicting motivations, find the magic sword at the end of a quest. The scenario is about determining who ends up with the sword!

The Paladin could be seeking an axe that was used by his forefathers (the artifact that leads him into the Caves). What happens if there are multiple claims on one object?


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 15, 2011)

Yes!  I was thinking of something exactly along those lines.  Also, Constance wants to learn about Dwarven secrets.  Surely the axe is a great secret amongst the dwarves.  She might want to lay claim to it too (that would be a belief that could come up later if Kobold Stew wanted to go that way).  Vellykyr wants to keep Chaos within the realm or humans; perhaps the Axe of Thror is prophesied to bring chaos to the elven lands or dwarven lands, or both.  Maybe for the Paladin the Axe could have appeared to him in a vision from his god, OR his holy superior could have bestowed him with a quest to retrieve it in the name of his god.  Just ideas.  Either way, I think having an item at play could really open things up in game.


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## engrishonly (Jan 15, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Why would a religious zealot do anything? Maybe because GOD SAID.
> 
> Remember, to have that Faith trait you need to believe in something otherworldly, sometimes without logical motivations. That's why it's called Faith, and not, Critical Reasoning. Just tell us what your god said in your dream/vision quest/blood ritual/angel molestation. How is your god going to test your faith? What is the best way to serve your god?




I think this is a cool track to take.

If you've ever tired of the wussy, 2-dimensional, broke-arse Paladins that people "roleplay" like some clueless idiot, then go big in this game. Be the amazing Paladin that embodies all the awesome D&Dness of Mr. Gygax's 17 CHA Paladin stuff from 1e AD&D.

Figure out that Faith thing, and what drives a Paladin forward. And be the embodiment of it. If you've read "Dune", there's the Fedaykin death commandos of Muad'Dib. There's all sort of crazy bloody-handed patriots & fanatics in history. The William Wallace of "Braveheart" also comes to mind when I think of Traladarans under the rule of the Thyatians.

The questions Mathalus asks are good ways to put things into words.


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## Mathalus (Jan 15, 2011)

I really like this axe thing. I don't think I'll change my beliefs right away, but maybe it's sharp enough to make a stone bleed? If not, perhaps if I just had the time to study it...


Macguffins FTW!


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 16, 2011)

Mathalus - I actually thought the same thing.  Maybe Ferranatos will later find out that both the axe and an antecedent are needed in order to cut stone, or some variation thereof.  I think there are a lot of ways we could go with it.

Now I'm getting antsy.  When do we start?


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## engrishonly (Jan 16, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Mathalus - I actually thought the same thing.  Maybe Ferranatos will later find out that both the axe and an antecedent are needed in order to cut stone, or some variation thereof.  I think there are a lot of ways we could go with it.
> 
> Now I'm getting antsy.  When do we start?




I want to make sure HandofMystara has ample time to craft a character.

I am guessing the weekend is not good, from prior posts. Can't be helped.

Let's set a "deadline" of sorts. By next weekend, we'll start it up. If we can do it sooner, then great.

HandofMystara, how are the basic stats going? Other than that, Beliefs & Instincts are the really big things.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 16, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> I need to come up with a 4th belief.  I was thinking of playing of my dwarven greed with something like,
> 
> "I will find Thror's axe in the Caves of Chaos and become the most renowned dwarf in the Keep."
> 
> What do you guys think?  It could potentially play off the beliefs of Ferranatos, Vellykyr, and Constance.




Sounds workable. Personally I liked the idea of Aurvang (cool name btw) swearing a now regretted drunken oath to help Constance, a bit more. But again, the axe definitely has possibilities. I could see Vellekhyr stealing the weapon stealthily, delivering it to one of Aurvang's rivals, then offering to help get retrieve it. Both politics and prophesy are a bitch .


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 16, 2011)

Ooooo!  I like the regretted drunken oath... but I like the Axe too.  Well, I bet we can work the drunken oath into gameplay easily enough.  I like the Axe as a starting point because everyone can play off of it.


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## engrishonly (Jan 17, 2011)

Teaching myself how to use GIMP in my spare time... but using online mapmakers, here's the game map...







Just wanted to show that things are moving along on my end.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 17, 2011)

Looks great! Can't wait to start.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 18, 2011)

Me neither.  I'm going to make a preemptive Drunking test to represent my excitement.

Ob 1, Success!!!!


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## engrishonly (Jan 19, 2011)

Okay, no word yet from our Paladin.

I notice nobody has Orienteering. We can work around it. Kind of odd that Elven Rangers don't get it as a lifepath skill, but Elven Wanderers have the Song of Paths and Ways as their primary skill.

3 lifepaths makes it tough.

...

And on the map, the old trade road is the big man-made feature on the map. To the northeast, the road goes up & up into the mountains. Beyond the mountains is a great desert. Beyond the desert are the Emirates of Ylarum. 

Between the Emirates & the Keep on the Borderlands is all unclaimed wilderness.

To the southwest, the road goes on through Karameikos, eventually leading to Specularum (the capital of Karameikos).


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 19, 2011)

For reference, can you tell me which direction is Rockhome, the land of dwarves?


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## Mathalus (Jan 19, 2011)

According to all the wiki's and maps that I was looking at, Rockhome is to the north and west of Karameikos. 

Alfheim is west of that, but still bordering it. Perhaps Vellekhyr and I were near the border of Karameikos and Alfheim at Master Vide's before coming here.


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## HandofMystra (Jan 19, 2011)

Sorry, I have been sick. I can think about this tommorow with a clear head.


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## Mathalus (Jan 20, 2011)

HandofMystara,

I sent you a PM with my email if you want to g-chat about your character. I can help you build those basic stats or generate some belief and instinct ideas to bring to the thread.


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## engrishonly (Jan 20, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> Sorry, I have been sick. I can think about this tommorow with a clear head.




Bottom line: I want this all to be done well & done right, and I think the game is better with your ideas.

I think all of us see some cool potentials in your ideas... so no worries. Let's figure out what it'll take to get it done.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 20, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Bottom line: I want this all to be done well & done right, and I think the game is better with your ideas.
> 
> I think all of us see some cool potentials in your ideas... so no worries. Let's figure out what it'll take to get it done.




I totally agree.

BTW - I just read about Mystara on wikipedia.  This is F-ing awesome!

"Mystara is a hollow planet, with a habitable surface on its interior called the Hollow World. This world is lit by an eternal red sun at the center of Mystara, and serves as a "cultural museum," preserving the societies that have become extinct in the outer world. The existence of the Hollow World is not, in general, known to the inhabitants of the outer world. The poles are actually huge, subtly curving holes that allow passage between the outer and inner world, although it is a long, hard trek through a cold, unlit, stormy and anti-magic area. The curvature of the holes is so subtle that explorers from either surface do not notice the transition until after it is already made, causing quite a shock for most."


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## Voidrazor (Jan 20, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Okay, no word yet from our Paladin.
> 
> I notice nobody has Orienteering. We can work around it. Kind of odd that Elven Rangers don't get it as a lifepath skill, but Elven Wanderers have the Song of Paths and Ways as their primary skill.
> 
> 3 lifepaths makes it tough.




Hopefully it won't be a problem. I imagine we'll all be counting on a fair amount of 'beginner's luck' early on. It's an opportunity to learn new skills. 


HandofMystra,
Is there anything in particular you're stuck on? Is there anything you'd like to see incorporated into the game that no one's mentioned yet?


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## engrishonly (Jan 20, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Hopefully it won't be a problem. I imagine we'll all be counting on a fair amount of 'beginner's luck' early on. It's an opportunity to learn new skills.




Yeah, I think learning new skills is cool, and Burning THAC0 has some D&Dish ideas for complications related to dice failures.

It should be an obstacle, anyway. It could be an opportunity for fleshing out other character stuff within the setting.


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## HandofMystra (Jan 21, 2011)

I have not been able to get excited about a character and thinking about it has felt like pulling teeth, so I think this is a sign that now is not a good time to learn to burn. Thank you for your help and patience. 
My persoanl take home from this is that I do not enjoy making up charaters much but I do enjoy playing in rpgs with characters that I like. I must think on this more.
Have fun!


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 21, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> I have not been able to get excited about a character and thinking about it has felt like pulling teeth, so I think this is a sign that now is not a good time to learn to burn. Thank you for your help and patience.
> My persoanl take home from this is that I do not enjoy making up charaters much but I do enjoy playing in rpgs with characters that I like. I must think on this more.
> Have fun!




Thanks for your honesty.  Better to drop out now than after we get started.  If Burning Wheel is the right game for you I'm sure you'll find your way there some day.  For now, best of luck with your gaming.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 21, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Thanks for your honesty.  Better to drop out now than after we get started.  If Burning Wheel is the right game for you I'm sure you'll find your way there some day.  For now, best of luck with your gaming.




Agreed. HandofMystra, it would have been great to have you aboard. I love burning characters, but then I used to play LBB Traveller too. We'll look for you next time.


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## engrishonly (Jan 21, 2011)

HandofMystra said:


> My persoanl take home from this is that I do not enjoy making up charaters much but I do enjoy playing in rpgs with characters that I like. I must think on this more.
> Have fun!




The Burning Wheel isn't for everyone. Finding that mix of character & story for your tastes is important, so good luck to you.

...

For everyone in the game, I'll post the initial IC post over the weekend. I will be traveling from Kansas this afternoon, going back to California.


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## Mathalus (Jan 21, 2011)

Okay, so we've still got the four of us. How do we get down to gettin' down? I haven't played in this forum before, is there a particular format of how we state intents, rolls, etc? I see the little rolling dice function there. 

Where should we start? Maybe wherever fine drinks are served in the Keep?


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## engrishonly (Jan 21, 2011)

Mrlittlejeans, go ahead and see if your brother wants to learn here. I'm okay with five players at this point, but try to make sure your brother is ready to throw down!

Sent you a PM, but the browser doesn't seem to like this site right now.



Mathalus said:


> Okay, so we've still got the four of us. How do we get down to gettin' down? I haven't played in this forum before, is there a particular format of how we state intents, rolls, etc? I see the little rolling dice function there.




I haven't actually run a pbp game here either. And when I did participate in one, I don't think we had the dice functionality at that time.

I'm not sure how the dice roller works/what options you have. I am on my Blackberry right now.

Ideally, you would be able to separate base dice from any FoRKs, traits, & other helpers.

Then I can look at your intent & say whether or not your rolls make sense.



Mathalus said:


> Where should we start? Maybe wherever fine drinks are served in the Keep?




There's a set intro for the module, but I might just ditch it for the tavern. I haven't yet decided.

I'm leaning towards the traditional intro, however.


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## Mathalus (Jan 21, 2011)

Oohh. Is the original intro all super old-school D&D? If so, we should definitely do that. Maybe you could post it when you get a chance and give us a little time to think on it before we "officially" start? 

This is great. I get to have the nostalgia without actually having to play 4th ed. 

Has anyone else rocked Castle Ravenloft the boardgame yet?


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 22, 2011)

@ engrishonly - my brother will be ready to throw down.  No worries.  

I agree, the old school intro is the way to go.  I'm definitely down for an old school revival after playing the abomination that is 4e for some time.  

@ Mathalmus - I've played Castle Ravenloft and was not at all impressed.  What did impress me was how 4e-like it was, which made me think, why did I ever try to play 4e in a non-boardgame format anyways?  Your thoughts?

Sorry for the rant.  If 4e is your thing, go for it


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## Voidrazor (Jan 22, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Sent you a PM, but the browser doesn't seem to like this site right now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah, its a bit worrisome that enworld got repeatedly reported as an attack site. That makes me a bit reluctant to use anything that requires scripts, at least until the matter can be cleared up. that would presumably include the die-roller, although I've never used it so I can't be sure. Would invisiblecastle.com be a reasonable substitute in the meantime?





engrishonly said:


> There's a set intro for the module, but I might just ditch it for the tavern. I haven't yet decided.
> 
> I'm leaning towards the traditional intro, however.




Where does the traditional intro start the PC's? I, err, couldn't afford clothes. So I am assuming this means that whatever clothes Vellekhyr might have had at one point in his life become unusable as soon as the game begins. Will it be possible to try to hunt for fur before arriving at the keep. Even if I can, I'll be defaulting the skills to track and skin, so there'll be plenty of room for things to go embarrassingly wrong.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 22, 2011)

I tried 4E ... once. Thinking of it purely as a Descent-like tabletop strategy game, it seemed like fun. But as an RPG its an EPIC-fail.


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## Mathalus (Jan 22, 2011)

I definitely agree about 4th ed. But that's what made Castle Ravenloft so great. Did you guys ever play Hero Quest the board game. It was mad fun, but after playing once, we always made our own rules. Castle Ravenloft shouldn't be thought of as bad D&D, but as rad Hero Quest.

Once every couple of years our group gets together and attempts to play D&D. We hated 3rd Ed when it came out, hated 4th, etc. But the nostalgia was great. 
Getting a little of that while playing Burning Wheel is radtastic. 

Does Vellekhyr have armor to cover himself?


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 22, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> I definitely agree about 4th ed. But that's what made Castle Ravenloft so great. Did you guys ever play Hero Quest the board game. It was mad fun, but after playing once, we always made our own rules. Castle Ravenloft shouldn't be thought of as bad D&D, but as rad Hero Quest.
> 
> Once every couple of years our group gets together and attempts to play D&D. We hated 3rd Ed when it came out, hated 4th, etc. But the nostalgia was great.
> Getting a little of that while playing Burning Wheel is radtastic.
> ...




I loved Hero Quest!  I played the whole thing straight through.  I think I was too young to realize I could change the rules   I think my beef with CR is that it seemed like a half-finished product, as does much of the WoTC stuff recently.  But that is another story that belongs in another thread.  

I'm getting my brother hooked up with the Character Burner online so he can start burning.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 22, 2011)

Nope, Vellekhyr doesn't have armor either. I figure he has a blanket and rope from his traveling gear. Far from ideal, but better than naked. I could buy clothes in game with my 1 precious resource point. But I really don't want to buy anything until I have artha to back it up. I don't want to lose the RP on my first freaking purchase.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 22, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Nope, Vellekhyr doesn't have armor either. I figure he has a blanket and rope from his traveling gear. Far from ideal, but better than naked. I could buy clothes in game with my 1 precious resource point. But I really don't want to buy anything until I have artha to back it up. I don't want to lose the RP on my first freaking purchase.




Aurvang is going to have a field day with the naked elf.  I can already pictures drunken (and sober) grumblings ... "no decency... pointy parts stickin' out every which way... how's an upright dwarf supposed to focus on killing monsters when the forest-frolicker is prancing around naked like a nymph?... I need another drink... barkeep!"


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## Pablohoney (Jan 23, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Mrlittlejeans, go ahead and see if your brother wants to learn here. I'm okay with five players at this point, but try to make sure your brother is ready to throw down!




Ready to throw down I am! Nice to meet everyone. Figured I'd introduce myself to the group with some answers to those Qs posted way back on page 

1. I have read through and discussed the MG and BW books at length with Mistrlittlejeans. I've also played MG a few times but still have yet to play BW in any capacity.
2. I have never played Keep on the Borderlands.
3. If this were Dnd, I'd probably go with an Elf fighter or ranger. I'm going to try out a human pally for the PbP game, though. 
4. I haven't played in any PbP games before.
5. I'm looking to familiarize myself with the BW mechanics and have some fun with this game. I've been playing 4e for awhile now and am bored with it. mistrlittlejeans picked up BW and I'm as eager to try it out as he is.


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## Mathalus (Jan 23, 2011)

Happy to have you. Check out the first page of the thread for a little intro that Engrishonly put together and check out the Grand Duchy of Karameikos on wikipedia if you want to know a bit about the area. 

If you want to play a human paladin, be sure to read up on the Faith rules. They are pretty sweet.

Don't worry, Vellekhyr. Ferrantos will hit up his brother for some cashola. You can borrow some clothes then.


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## engrishonly (Jan 23, 2011)

The old intro is the PC's arrival at the Keep. They don't just let anyone in! (I guess we'll have to address the half-naked Elf somehow.)

The initial part of the game will be in the walls of the Keep, provided that the Keep's Lawful guardians don't turn you away...

...

Pablohoney, while a Paladin is cool, don't feel wedded to the choice if you don't want to. Certainly, someone with the Faith ability would be cool to have in the group, but so would a Sword Singer or any other fighter-type.

...

As for dice, feel free to use whatever. Invisible Castle is what I normally use.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 23, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Aurvang is going to have a field day with the naked elf.




Certainly Constance has plenty of clothes, but they are unlikely to fit Vellekhyr. She'll keep offering though, because it's funny.

Welcome, Pablohoney.


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## Pablohoney (Jan 23, 2011)

I've been reading quite a lot on the religious conflicts within Karameikos and I'm excited to play my paladin. I'm not choosing him just because the other pally dropped out. Once I delved into the concept it started to fall into place for me quite well. I do need to read up on Faith. Seems like a very interesting ability, to say the least. 

Anyway, here's my first run at the character. I'll take all the input I can get. I have some more ideas for instincts and beliefs, but I haven't been able to flesh them out (I really want to tie one to temptation). Also, I don't have any gear, affiliations, etc listed because I don't have the costs, so I don't know what I can afford.

Name: Avros
Concept/Bio: A weapon of the Church of Traladara
Lifepaths: Born Noble, Lead to Religious, Temple Acolyte, Lead to Professional Soldier, Bannerman
Age : 19
Stats: Wi: B4, Pe: B4, Po: B4, Fo: B4, Ag: B6, Sp: B3, Speed Mult.: x3.5
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B7, Hes: 6, Hea: B6, MW: B10, Faith: B5, Circles: B2, Resources: B0
PTGS: Su: B3  Li: B5  Mi: B7  Se: B8  Tr: B9  Mo: B10
Beliefs: 
  My Faith is a gift and I must not abuse it. I will only use it to heal those on the verge of death.
  Loyalty is a bond as deep as blood. I will bring to justice any who betray me or my companions.

Instincts: 
  Always protect Constance in battle (or the weakest ally).


Traits: [Dt] Mark of Privilege, [Dt] Tonsured, [Char] Honored, [Dt] Faithful
Skills: Armor Training, Conspicuous B2, Doctrine B3, Field Dressing B2, Spear B3, Intimidation B3, Sword B4, Read B2, Rhetoric B2, Temple-Wise B2
Affiliations: 
Reputations: 
Relationships: 
Gear: 
Property: 
Spells: 
Weapons: 
Bare Fisted I:B2 M:B4 S:B6 Add 2 VA 0 Fast Shortest


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## Pablohoney (Jan 23, 2011)

Some quick background info. The Church of Traladara is the old religion of the region. The Church of Karameikos is a hybrid religion formed by the Thyatians when they took over. My thought is that there are certain sects of the Church of Traladara that believe this new religion has overstepped it's bounds by profitting through the sale of pardons. They believe this is unjust and must be stopped at all costs, even if that means violence. The Order of the Sword is one such sect, and I plan for Avros to affiliate with it. This puts me in conflict with Constance, but whether I know this at the start or not is up in the air.


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 23, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> This puts me in conflict with Constance, but whether I know this at the start or not is up in the air.




I'm pretty sure you will be in conflict with Constance, and yet you have an instinctual obligation to protect her. Well done!

(and hurray for the weakest ally!).


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## Mathalus (Jan 23, 2011)

I like this Paladin. I think you have a solid concept, which makes everything easier. I think it's interesting how young he turned out. You should play that up. Also, can I make a suggestion for your third belief? Make it something you can knock out in a session or two. Maybe even something that can be done at the keep. One of the better ways to get artha is completing a goal. Think of what your character lacks that can be remedied fairly soon. 

Also, I might suggest opening a missile weapon skill. I think our party might use the Range and Cover rules a bit, and you won't want to just stand around. Although Aurvang doesn't have one either.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 24, 2011)

I like the duality of the Paladin's relationship with Constance too.  I also agree a range weapon might be a good idea.  I just don't have the skill points to do it with Aurvang, so unfortunately he will be standing around during Range and Cover.

Pablohoney - I'm not sure how many resource points you have, but you might consider a relationship with a church official residing in the Keep; could be friendly or hostile.  It could be a good way to get a lead on church corruption in the Keep.


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## engrishonly (Jan 24, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> Beliefs:
> My Faith is a gift and I must not abuse it. I will only use it to heal those on the verge of death.
> Loyalty is a bond as deep as blood. I will bring to justice any who betray me or my companions.




There's a free sample chapter from the Adventure Burner that is helpful for writing Beliefs. I don't have the link handy, but the PDF is in the downloads section of the BW wiki.

I like the tone of those Beliefs. I can see how I can use them in the game.

I would like a Belief tied to the Situation - why does your Paladin want to explore/purge the Caves of Chaos? What is driving him forward into the dungeon?

I'll think on these some more.



Pablohoney said:


> Instincts:
> Always protect Constance in battle (or the weakest ally).




Protect the weakest is good.

Ideas for others...
A typical Instinct is "When (event), use (skill)".
 So, it's something like, "Whenever I am at a social gathering, be Conspicuous" or "Tell Falsehoods when someone asks me to talk about myself".

Another typical one is the item instinct. "Always sleep with a knife under my pillow", for instance.


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## Voidrazor (Jan 24, 2011)

mistrlittlejeans said:


> Aurvang is going to have a field day with the naked elf.  I can already pictures drunken (and sober) grumblings ... "no decency... pointy parts stickin' out every which way... how's an upright dwarf supposed to focus on killing monsters when the forest-frolicker is prancing around naked like a nymph?... I need another drink... barkeep!"




Should be amusing. I know how Vellekhyr will respond. But rathing than saying, it should be more fun to play out. 



Kobold Stew said:


> Certainly Constance has plenty of clothes, but they are unlikely to fit Vellekhyr. She'll keep offering though, because it's funny.




Its an odd place to go, but I could see V. being more keen to take a stab at reworking some of Constance's finery than stabbing some animal for rough furs. 



Pablohoney said:


> Name: Avros
> Concept/Bio: A weapon of the Church of Traladara
> ...
> Instincts:
> Always protect Constance in battle (or the weakest ally).




Welcome! You may want to have an instinct that will occasionally get Avros in trouble. Aside from the fun of creating plot complications from your character's personality quirks, it can also earn you Fate points.



Mathalus said:


> I like this Paladin. I think you have a solid concept, which makes everything easier. I think it's interesting how young he turned out. You should play that up. Also, can I make a suggestion for your third belief? Make it something you can knock out in a session or two. Maybe even something that can be done at the keep. One of the better ways to get artha is completing a goal. Think of what your character lacks that can be remedied fairly soon.
> 
> Also, I might suggest opening a missile weapon skill. I think our party might use the Range and Cover rules a bit, and you won't want to just stand around. Although Aurvang doesn't have one either.




Good suggestion on the third belief. I keep this in mind as well in coming to a final decision on mine. BTW, I did decide on a replacement instinct, that follows my advice above, "When humans do not do as I wish, remind them, by deeds or words, that they are a race of children."

I disagree about Avros needing to open a ranged weapon skill however. His B6 Agility should already make for a decent default, and he probably won't be able to afford a melee weapon, armor *and* a missile weapon, not to mention relationships, reputation, traveling gear, and, err, clothes. 



engrishonly said:


> I've not read the Song of Ice & Fire, so sadly I cannot incorporate it without you suggesting themes, which you are obliged to do in your Beliefs & Instincts.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...




I've been thinking about how Vellekhyr's belief, "The stars have shown that my companions are the key to keeping the conflict between houses limited to human lands. I must draw them into the intrigue while watching their backs." might play out. I'm not sure what the opportunities for intrigue will be at the keep before going to the caves. Something may emerge organically, or not. But if we were to find a vein of mithril (or some other mystical ore) in the caves, it could spur a lot of plotlines at once. Ferrantos could use it for his blade, if he could retain rights to the find while arranging to get the ore mined. It would be a source of prestige among the dwarves and tempt Aurvang's Greed. Constance may see it as an opportunity to either take advantage of men's folly or to acquire dwarven secrets. For Vellekhyr it would be both disaster  and opportunity. The find could ignite both  Traladarian and Thyatian interest in the area, causing both to press their claim on the area. This is all somewhat similar to the situation with the axe, but would probably play out over a larger time scale.

Oh, and I strongly recommend picking up A Game of Thrones. Its the first book in George RR Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series. It is almost universally regarded as the best fantasy series of all time.


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## engrishonly (Jan 24, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> I've been thinking about how Vellekhyr's belief, "The stars have shown that my companions are the key to keeping the conflict between houses limited to human lands. I must draw them into the intrigue while watching their backs." might play out. I'm not sure what the opportunities for intrigue will be at the keep before going to the caves. Something may emerge organically, or not. But if we were to find a vein of mithril (or some other mystical ore) in the caves, it could spur a lot of plotlines at once. Ferrantos could use it for his blade, if he could retain rights to the find while arranging to get the ore mined. It would be a source of prestige among the dwarves and tempt Aurvang's Greed. Constance may see it as an opportunity to either take advantage of men's folly or to acquire dwarven secrets. For Vellekhyr it would be both disaster  and opportunity.




I've got a microdungeon from Tony Dowler's "dungeon a day" blog picked out for the thing that might cover these bases. (The original module has some areas that are left up to the DM's imagination, so you have to fill them in)

No mithril vein, although I can add one. I can provide the rumors that lead to this microdungeon, but the point of the Keep as the first stop has always been to populate the setting with rumor & half-truth. 

This is why Thor's advice for the Keep on the Borderlands is to write the third Belief after you've been around the Keep.

EDIT: To be clear, there's a microdungeon that fits in the space between the Caves of Chaos & the Cave of the Unknown that covers the situation for Thror's Axe, Ferrantos' blade antecedent, Constance's secrets, and Vellekhyr's intrigues. You can find the rumors for it at the Keep, or I can tell you now.


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## engrishonly (Jan 24, 2011)

FYI, the in-game thread is now up...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/playing-game/300169-burning-thac0-b2-keep-borderlands.html#post5440029

You can start messing around there if you like, although the Lawful men-at-arms of the Keep might not look kindly on those who flaunt their nakedness before them 

I don't expect a lot of dice rolling at this point as we're still nailing down characters.


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## engrishonly (Jan 24, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> Some quick background info. The Church of Traladara is the old religion of the region. The Church of Karameikos is a hybrid religion formed by the Thyatians when they took over. *My thought is that there are certain sects of the Church of Traladara that believe this new religion has overstepped it's bounds by profitting through the sale of pardons. *They believe this is unjust and must be stopped at all costs, even if that means violence. The Order of the Sword is one such sect, and I plan for Avros to affiliate with it. This puts me in conflict with Constance, but whether I know this at the start or not is up in the air.




Why not create a Belief about this one? It puts Avros more squarely at odds with Constance... which is a positive, I think. Complexity in the party's internal relationships makes for a richer experience.

Here's the Beliefs commentary chapter:
Downloads - Burning Wiki

The Order of the Sword sounds like a fine affiliation/reputation for Avros...


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## Mathalus (Jan 25, 2011)

The intro sort of makes it sound like we are all together. I know that Vellekhyr and Ferrantos are coming here together. Is Constance already at the Keep? Are Aurvang and Avros hanging out there already, or would you like to meet on the road?


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## engrishonly (Jan 25, 2011)

I'd prefer if you were all traveling together, at least for now. The less splintering you do as a party, the better.

Also, I want all the introductions to have been made already so that we can avoid the "sitting around in the tavern" bit.

Maybe assume you all meet on the road/prior to that, at the pre-arranged day & time. Perhaps at some other tavern/inn, perhaps even in Specularum... where many ships from elsewhere come to dock. Traveling through the outlands/Borderlands from outside Karameikos to get to the Keep is a far more difficult journey.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 25, 2011)

Anybody got ideas of how we could all get together?  For Aurvang, I was thinking that he is on leave from his duties with the Host.  He decided to go to the Keep, and the Caves of Chaos, in search of  Thror's Axe to gain renown, wealth, and maybe a lucky dwarfette.  He also needs to find out what happened to his cousin, Gloi, who's unit he heard never came back out of the Caves.  that's reason enough for him to go there.  As for traveling with you folks, hmmmm.  Since the journey is rather long and treacherous we could all have been in the same caravan or something.  I could see Aurvang making nice over some drinks, particularly with Constance, and maybe Ferranatos.  Vellykhyr is already associated with the wizard, so I'm just missing the paladin.  Could the paladin be traveling with Constance?

Oh yeah, I was going to ask.  Does anyone know how to set up automatic email notifications for thread updates?  I changed my thread subscription to Instant Notification, but I never get ANY notifications.  It's annoying.


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## engrishonly (Jan 25, 2011)

My only advice is to not think so hard about backstory that doesn't have forward-looking implications. If the party is together, and there isn't any big reasons for them to be/not to be, then it is kind of irrelevant to the game. Just think of all the random reasons why you have the friends that you do.


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## Mathalus (Jan 25, 2011)

I like that. Let's not worry too much about back story. 

How about a really basic understanding like this:

Vellekhyr and Ferrantos are traveling together from Master Vide's. 

They meet Aurvang on the road, and help show him the way to the Keep near the Caves of Chaos he wants to see so badly. Ferrantos is from Karameikos, and Vellekhyr has a bit of a network up here, so it's easy to see why.

Avros and Constance are at an inn two days from the Keep along with some other folks. They may not have made each other's acquaintance yet, but they are both waiting for the next traveling party to come through. This close to the Borderlands it's considered suicide to travel alone. (There are like 1 million hobgoblins out there, think random encounters in D&D). 

When the artificer, elf, and dwarf arrive at the inn they are given the same warning, so they are happy to have Avros, Constance and the other travelers along.

Feeling that the party is large enough, everyone makes the two day trek. When it's discovered that Vellekhyr has some form of tenacious Borderland lice from the bed he took at the inn, he is forced to burn his clothing and put his head through his traveling blanket as a poncho. Of course as an elf, the whole thing comes off looking surprisingly dignified. 

The party arrives at the Keep the next day. Cue the intro. Let's play.


(Suggest edits as necessary).


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## Pablohoney (Jan 26, 2011)

I like that, Mathalus. Just so you guys know I'm wrapping up a project for work that's been kicking my ass these last couple days. I'm planning to sit down with Avros tomorrow evening and finish him up.


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## Mathalus (Jan 26, 2011)

No worries about Avros. We'll be futzing around this keep for a bit, I'm sure.

Also, maybe Vellekhyr could roll Oratory (4 dice), or attempt a beginner's luck roll for Intimidation (6 dice, double Ob). Just roll those dice. Tests will improve you. Of course you've got to understand that if you fail, then he will dislike you. Always escalate!


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## engrishonly (Jan 26, 2011)

The Corporal of the Watch can be a minor character... or he can be put behind you. Part of the module is that element of creativity. In the old Basic D&D B2, you could try to raise a small army from the men-at-arms of the Keep & try to invade the Caves of Chaos en masse... but there's just loose "stuff" thrown together. It's not all scripted out like modern D&D modules.

The Corporal of the Watch is simply described as a grouchy guy with low Charisma, who happens to be "easily taken in by a pretty girl". There's no name attached to the title, although I have some more personality pieces in the description (which I basically transform into Beliefs & Instincts without specifically writing them all out).

(I picked Georg as the name, loosely based on the quasi-Greek of the Grand Duchy of Karameikos. It also helps that the default uniform for the men-at-arms is blue.)

So, in short, no need to roll dice unless you have a specific kind of intent, in the manner of a Building Scene kind of event (like Burning Empires).


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## Voidrazor (Jan 27, 2011)

I'll certainly take any roll I can. My intent is to Persuade Georg that it would be in his best interest to extend every hospitality, and that not doing so will endanger his career. Unfortunately, I don't think 2 successes will do the trick (1d6=2, 1d6=3, 1d6=2, 1d6=5, 1d6=2, 1d6=5, 1d6=1, 1d6=1). I rolled 2 extra dice in case I could take extra time, but they came up 1's.


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## Mathalus (Jan 27, 2011)

So does Vellekhyr badger this guard for a bit, while we move on, or does the guard send him packing? Or both?


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## engrishonly (Jan 27, 2011)

First, the scene starts as Color. The concept is just there to spark ideas & interests.

It comes alive when you identify drama, or when I ask for dice/something. By throwing dice, you tell me, "This is important. This is where we build drama." I guess this is what I mean by Building.

Throw dice because you want to mark an important part of the story. When I hear dice, I am thinking, "Okay, I'll have to expand on this part of the game."



Mathalus said:


> So does Vellekhyr badger this guard for a bit, while we move on, or does the guard send him packing? Or both?




The Corporal of the Watch will send him to the gaol... err, jail, to meditate on his ways. The rest of you will move on to the tavern, where you can do whatever... including converse with Auromos.

I'll move it along in my next post.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 27, 2011)

I"m not completely sure how to handle this, so correct me if I'm wrong.

while Ferranatos and the others chat up Auromos, Aurvang is going to drink... a lot.  After his first drink, paid for by Ferranatos, he'll sidle up to anyone (another dwarf if there is one) who looks like they might be a rought and tumble sort.  My intent is to impress the patrons of the tavern by outdrinking the surliest sort there.  I'd like to make a drinking test.


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## Mathalus (Jan 27, 2011)

You might have to wait one. I currently have a Resources of zero, so it might be hard for me to buy that drink. You are welcome to Help me persuade my brother for moola though. Otherwise your plan is perfect.

Poor Vellekhyr, don't worry, we'll get you sprung.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 27, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> You might have to wait one. I currently have a Resources of zero, so it might be hard for me to buy that drink. You are welcome to Help me persuade my brother for moola though. Otherwise your plan is perfect.
> 
> Poor Vellekhry, don't worry, we'll get you sprung.




Sounds like a good plan.  I don't have any applicable skill, so I'll have to go Beginner's Luck Persuasion maybe.  Unless of course, I can use Drunking, but that would require getting drunk first, which is why I'm tagging along with you in the first place.  Ha.


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## Mathalus (Jan 27, 2011)

I don't think you can Help using a skill you don't have. Maybe Constance will lend a hand then. Actually her Persuasion is better. Maybe she'd like to broach this delicate subject, and Ferrantos can help.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 27, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> I don't think you can Help using a skill you don't have. Maybe Constance will lend a hand then. Actually her Persuasion is better. Maybe she'd like to broach this delicate subject, and Ferrantos can help.




In that case I'll keep waiting for that drink and let the pretty ones do the talking.


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## engrishonly (Jan 27, 2011)

I will try to keep Vellekhyr occupied while in his prison cell... but he might get a penalty or something the next day due to a headache from the crazy guy, or something...



mistrlittlejeans said:


> In that case I'll keep waiting for that drink and let the pretty ones do the talking.




Now that sounds like a challenge to the GM!

Actually, the path to Gloi needs to be started at some point. I'll think on it, but you also have to make it work.

Oh... I also have to get Vanity to spill a drink on Constance...


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 28, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> I will try to keep Vellekhyr occupied while in his prison cell... but he might get a penalty or something the next day due to a headache from the crazy guy, or something...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have an idea.


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## Mathalus (Jan 28, 2011)

What kind of roll is appropriate to talk to the captain? Doesn't he want us to come along? Is it just to determine what we can get out of it?

If we have to haggle, I'd love to go to a full on Duel of Wits. My will would be more helpful there. But, if the obstacle isn't too high and you don't want to take the time to DOW, I don't mind rolling my cruddy Persuasion by itself. Would Auromos Help?

Also would Constance like to Help negotiate terms. Or even take the lead?

All I'm asking for with the bandit job, is a long term loan of plate leather, crossbows, and travelling gear for anyone who needs them, a share of the spoils, or a cash die per person if the spoils end up being nothing. That doesn't seem like much to me. What you think? If the Ob is low, you can roll for me to speed things up. 

It seems like if we could get that stuff together we'd be a lot better equipped to head into the caves. 

I'd also like to see if Auromos will help me free Vellekhyr, if not right now, at least in the morning.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 28, 2011)

Duel of Wits would be more appropriate if you wanted to convince the Captain or your brother that the Chevaliers should aid us in exploring the Caves, something they clearly don't want to do.  

I think it all comes down to what your Task and Intent are.  If they directly conflict with the captain's then you could do Duel of Wits.


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## Mathalus (Jan 28, 2011)

That's probably true.

Is everyone interested in messing up some bandits before we head to the caves? We probably need to equip a bit before we go running into a humanoid infested area.  Speak up.


Oh, I forget, do we start with any artha?


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## Voidrazor (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm up for bandits first. Perhaps we should do that, building up a feeling of brotherhood, before asking for the Chevaliers to join us.


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## Mathalus (Jan 28, 2011)

Do you want them to join us in the caves? That might work. It would be nice to have them around to soak up damage. We could suggest it afterwards, but I don't want to get too set on it. 

It's true that the five of us would likely get crushed in those caves. Aurvang and Avros could probably hang, but we need to get our act together. Some bandits might just do the trick.

I'm waiting on either Constance to narrate her way into talking to the Captain with me, or Engrishonly to narrate that we are talking to him right now.


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## engrishonly (Jan 28, 2011)

Alright, most of you can talk to the Captain while Vellekhyr sits in his cell & Aurvang is drunking...

I'll post that next in the IC thread.


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## Pablohoney (Jan 29, 2011)

Ok, I think I've got him. Let me know what you guys think and I'm eager to jump in.

Name: Avros
Concept/Bio: An aspiring initiative of the Church of Traladara.
Lifepaths: Born Noble, Lead to Religious, Temple Acolyte, Lead to Professional Soldier, Bannerman
Age : 19
Stats: Wi: B4, Pe: B4, Po: B4, Fo: B4, Ag: B6, Sp: B3, Speed Mult.: x3.5
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B7, Hes: 6, Hea: B6, MW: B10, Faith: B4, Circles: B2, Resources: B0
PTGS: Su: B3  Li: B5  Mi: B7  Se: B8  Tr: B9  Mo: B10
Beliefs: 
  My Faith is a gift and I must not abuse it. I will only use it to heal those on the verge of death.
  I must find Gadrius in the Keep. Only by completing the quest he gives me can I gain my Sword (Entry into the Order of the Sword).
  Loyalty is a bond as deep as blood. I will bring to justice any who betray me or my companions.
Instincts: 
  Always protect Constance in battle.
  Tend to those that the CoK will not.
  Never trust a pardoner.
Traits: [Dt] Mark of Privilege, [Dt] Tonsured, [Char] Honored, [Dt] Faithful
Skills: Armor Training, Conspicuous B3, Doctrine B3, Field Dressing B2, Haggling B2, Intimidation B3, Oratory B2, Read B2, Spear B4
Affiliations: 
Reputations: 
Relationships: Gadrius, Ranger of the Borderlands (Minor)
Gear: Spear (RotM), Plated Leather Armor, Shoes, Traveling Gear, Clothes
Property: 
Spells: 
Weapons: 
Bare Fisted I:B2 M:B4 S:B6 Add 2 VA 0 Fast Shortest
Spear I:B3 M:B6 S:B9 Add 2 VA 1 Fast Longest Two Handed


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## Pablohoney (Jan 29, 2011)

I decided to make him an initiate so that my main starting goal is to become a member of the Order of the Sword. This is why I have journeyed to the Keep in the first place. Engrishonly, where should I start with my character? I feel like there's a lot of ground to make up.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 29, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> I'm up for bandits first. Perhaps we should do that, building up a feeling of brotherhood, before asking for the Chevaliers to join us.




This is a good idea.  Looks like my successful test is taking me to the Bandits (nice work GM) so I'm down for kicking some bandit ass.


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## engrishonly (Jan 29, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Oh, I forget, do we start with any artha?




Let's go with the fast jump start...

2 Fate, 1 Persona as a starting point.

...

Okay, time to check out our Paladin...


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## engrishonly (Jan 29, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> Ok, I think I've got him. Let me know what you guys think and I'm eager to jump in.
> 
> Name: Avros
> Concept/Bio: An aspiring initiative of the Church of Traladara.
> ...




Looking good.

Gadrius... I've got ideas for him. What do you see as part of that story arc? Have you an idea about who Gadrius should be?

...

As for where to jump in, assume he's with Ferrantos & Constance unless there's a specific thing for Avros to look for.



Pablohoney said:


> Beliefs:
> My Faith is a gift and I must not abuse it. I will only use it to heal those on the verge of death.
> I must find Gadrius in the Keep. Only by completing the quest he gives me can I gain my Sword (Entry into the Order of the Sword).
> Loyalty is a bond as deep as blood. I will bring to justice any who betray me or my companions.
> ...




Okay, Beliefs.

The Gadrius thing is okay, but it's likely to be really short-lived/not very long-term. I also need you to consider what Belief is brining Avros to the Caves of Chaos.

Instincts...
I'd try to generalize the Constance one. "Always gallantly come to the defense of any woman."

Even so, I like the pardoner one in light of your prior posts.

The CofK one, not sure I like. The Adventure Burner also has ideas for writing Instincts. The "skill" Instinct is one. "Always be Conspicuous when walking into a room full of starngers, for instance."

The other typical choice is the "item" instinct, usually kind of martial. "Always sleep with a knife under my pillow" or "Draw my sword whenever I have been insulted" or whatever.

It just feels like these are a little on the safe side.

Okay, really tired, must sleepr.


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## Pablohoney (Jan 29, 2011)

Alright, I went deeper with my Induction Quest. I was planning to use it as my motivation to seek out the caves and hope this will suffice. I changed my instincts around to be more defined and skill driven. I wanted to include something about pardoners but everything I came up with was very general. If anyone has an idea for a 3rd belief (replacing the betrayal idea) I'd open to suggestions. I was thinking something along the lines of "Pardoner are heretical" but that's too simple and doesn't call to action. I don't want to take it too far though because of Constance. I also changed my skills just a bit. I have 8 resources left and am thinking about chainmail instead of plated leather, which would leave me with 4. Is it best to spend all the resources right away, or save some? Here he is:

Name: Avros
Concept/Bio: An aspiring initiative of the Church of Traladara.
Lifepaths: Born Noble, Lead to Religious, Temple Acolyte, Lead to Professional Soldier, Bannerman
Age : 19
Stats: Wi: B4, Pe: B4, Po: B4, Fo: B4, Ag: B6, Sp: B3, Speed Mult.: x3.5
Attributes: Ref: B4, Ste: B7, Hes: 6, Hea: B6, MW: B10, Faith: B4, Circles: B2, Resources: B0
PTGS: Su: B3  Li: B5  Mi: B7  Se: B8  Tr: B9  Mo: B10
Beliefs: 
  My Faith is a gift and I must not abuse it. I will only use it to heal those on the verge of death.
  I must bring Gadrius the heart of a true creature of Chaos from the Caves of Chaos in order to be accepted into the Order of the Sword.
  Loyalty is a bond as deep as blood. I will bring to justice any who betray me or my companions.
Instincts: 
  Always protect a beautiful woman in danger.
  Intimidate when insulted.
  Be conspicuous when I enter a room.
Traits: [Dt] Mark of Privilege, [Dt] Tonsured, [Char] Honored, [Dt] Faithful
Skills: Armor Training, Conspicuous B3, Doctrine B3, Field Dressing B2, Intimidation B3, Oratory B2, Persuasion B2, Read B2, Spear B4
Affiliations: 
Reputations: 
Relationships: Brother Gadrius, Ranger-Priest of the Borderlands (Minor)
Gear: Spear (RotM), Plated Leather Armor, Shoes, Traveling Gear, Clothes
Property: 
Spells: 
Weapons: 
Bare Fisted I:B2 M:B4 S:B6 Add 2 VA 0 Fast Shortest
Spear I:B3 M:B6 S:B9 Add 2 VA 1 Fast Longest Two Handed


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## Pablohoney (Jan 29, 2011)

It sounds like the Corporal is only holding Vellekhyr for the night, correct? If that's the case, we don't really need to worry about him at this point.

If my instinct is to be Conspicuous when I enter a room, does that require a roll whenever I enter a room? Or is it considered more flavor unless I really want something to happen? At this point, I think I'm most interested by the Friar when he mentions he (and the Chevaliers?) is a member of an ancient militant order. Is the friar in on the drinking contest?


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## Mathalus (Jan 29, 2011)

I like this guy. He's got Faith. He's got Field Dressing. He's my new best friend.

I like your beliefs. The only thing that I find potentially cumbersome is the Loyalty belief. Are you going to get many chances to use that? Maybe Engirshonly will think of some good ways to betray us. Although... if you pick a different belief that is very short term, you could wait until we were betrayed, accomplish your first belief, and then switch back. 

Double artha. All the way. 

I really like your instincts. They force you to be dashing. You're all, "Hey, I don't know if you know me, but I'm kind of a big deal."

I imagine us sneaking in somewhere and you are all clearing your throat and being shiny. Hilarious.


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## Pablohoney (Jan 29, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Gadrius... I've got ideas for him. What do you see as part of that story arc? Have you an idea about who Gadrius should be?




Gadrius is a ranger-priest of the CoT. Gadrius is a follower of Zirchev and his duty is to keep a watchful eye on the Borderlands for signs of defilement and incursions into Karameikos.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 29, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> It sounds like the Corporal is only holding Vellekhyr for the night, correct? If that's the case, we don't really need to worry about him at this point.
> 
> If my instinct is to be Conspicuous when I enter a room, does that require a roll whenever I enter a room? Or is it considered more flavor unless I really want something to happen? At this point, I think I'm most interested by the Friar when he mentions he (and the Chevaliers?) is a member of an ancient militant order. Is the friar in on the drinking contest?




Yes, it requires a test.  That's the whole point - you build an automatic test into your character concept.  It's a nice way to ingrain the mechanics into the concept.  Of course, it's both good and bad, right?  You gain a test every time you enter a room, but what about when you enter tavern being held hostage by bandits seeking you out?  You are f#$#%! in that situation.  That's why it's so fun!  Also, if you have to make a test whenever you enter a room, it can lead to some great/fun complications when you fail.


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## Pablohoney (Jan 29, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> The only thing that I find potentially cumbersome is the Loyalty belief. Are you going to get many chances to use that? Maybe Engirshonly will think of some good ways to betray us. Although... if you pick a different belief that is very short term, you could wait until we were betrayed, accomplish your first belief, and then switch back.




I agree with you. I was writing beliefs from a more general standpoint at first. I had an idea about coming to the Keep on the trail of someone who betrayed my family. Maybe I could run with that...


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## Mathalus (Jan 29, 2011)

Whatever you decide to make it, you will help yourself out if you phrase it in the short-term. It's often easier to make the belief simply the first step of a larger series of beliefs. Then you snag artha as you check off the steps. Specificity also helps Engrishonly know when they've been triggered.


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## engrishonly (Jan 29, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> Alright, I went deeper with my Induction Quest. I was planning to use it as my motivation to seek out the caves and hope this will suffice. I changed my instincts around to be more defined and skill driven. I wanted to include something about pardoners but everything I came up with was very general. If anyone has an idea for a 3rd belief (replacing the betrayal idea) I'd open to suggestions. I was thinking something along the lines of "Pardoner are heretical" but that's too simple and doesn't call to action. I don't want to take it too far though because of Constance. I also changed my skills just a bit. I have 8 resources left and am thinking about chainmail instead of plated leather, which would leave me with 4. Is it best to spend all the resources right away, or save some? Here he is:
> 
> Beliefs:
> My Faith is a gift and I must not abuse it. I will only use it to heal those on the verge of death.
> ...




Okay... must be brief, lots to do today.

I'd probably replace that Loyalty one with something about another player character. Even if it is phrased to put Avros at odds with someone (say, Constance, the Pardoner), "Other Player Character" beliefs eventually work towards building a stronger party dynamic & storyline in the end.

I like the Gadrius details. Gives me more insight into who you want him to be & how I can work with him.

You might also want a mechanical "item instinct". "Draw my sword when ...". "Always sleep with a knife under my pillow". This sort of thing.

I like Conspicuous, but is that Instinct going to fit your Paladin? You have to play the blow-hard, "HERE I AM" sort of character if you really want to push that.


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## Pablohoney (Jan 30, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Okay... must be brief, lots to do today.
> 
> I'd probably replace that Loyalty one with something about another player character. Even if it is phrased to put Avros at odds with someone (say, Constance, the Pardoner), "Other Player Character" beliefs eventually work towards building a stronger party dynamic & storyline in the end.




Would something like, "Constance is a liar and a thief. I will make sure she doesn't lead us into trouble" work? I see it as me calling her out if she steals something and I notice, or not trusting her advice, plans, etc. when it comes to party decisions. Or I could do something like "Constance is a heretic. I will show her the true path."

Something else I thought of would be "Vellekyr is the group elder. I will always follow his lead." That might be more of an instinct "Always respect the group elder." IDK. I don't have any good ideas for the item instincts. The Conspicuos instinct isn't my favorite, but it would be a lot of fun to play. Might take a bit for me to get used to it. One last instinct I thought of is "Always bury the dead." I would probably restrict it to goodly humanoid races, like humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc...


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 30, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> Would something like, "Constance is a liar and a thief. I will make sure she doesn't lead us into trouble" work? I see it as me calling her out if she steals something and I notice, or not trusting her advice, plans, etc. when it comes to party decisions. Or I could do something like "Constance is a heretic. I will show her the true path."
> 
> Something else I thought of would be "Vellekyr is the group elder. I will always follow his lead." That might be more of an instinct "Always respect the group elder." IDK. I don't have any good ideas for the item instincts. The Conspicuos instinct isn't my favorite, but it would be a lot of fun to play. Might take a bit for me to get used to it. One last instinct I thought of is "Always bury the dead." I would probably restrict it to goodly humanoid races, like humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc...




I just thought of something that might be fun.  What about, "Whenever Constance steals or Pardons I say a prayer for her soul out loud".

This could create a great dynamic between the two - Avros watching over Constance like a hawk, trying with futility, to spare her soul from eternal suffering.  You could watch for her to steal things, pardon people, commit other sins, etc., always saying a prayer out loud afterwards, which would be a trigger for Constance and other to know what she was doing.  You know what I mean?

I'm imagining a scene where Constance flirts with a noble, who left a golden trinket on a table, she reaches down and swipes it, but Avros catches her.  so she begins spouting off a prayer alerting the rest of the party to Constance's deed.  The noble looks at all of us like we're crazy!

I think the dynamic to lead to some great DoW's between you two as well.


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## engrishonly (Jan 31, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> Would something like, "Constance is a liar and a thief. I will make sure she doesn't lead us into trouble" work? I see it as me calling her out if she steals something and I notice, or not trusting her advice, plans, etc. when it comes to party decisions. Or I could do something like "Constance is a heretic. I will show her the true path."




Maybe charlatan instead of heretic, but I kind of like the direction there. It helps bring the relationship with Constance squarely into the realm of faith.



Pablohoney said:


> Something else I thought of would be "Vellekyr is the group elder. I will always follow his lead." That might be more of an instinct "Always respect the group elder." IDK. I don't have any good ideas for the item instincts. The Conspicuos instinct isn't my favorite, but it would be a lot of fun to play. Might take a bit for me to get used to it. One last instinct I thought of is "Always bury the dead." I would probably restrict it to goodly humanoid races, like humans, elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings, etc...




Always following the advice of the eldest is interesting if you want to build towards leadership. Think of the instincts as a kind of vehicle for dramatic tension.  You have to break from who you were to become the person you are meant to be, and that's the beauty of Instincts in the Burning Wheel.

Item ideas... "Always draw my sword/ready my weapon when confronted by an enemy of the Traladaran immortals", as an example.

"Always bury the dead"... Don't limit it if you choose it. Then it becomes too safe, I think. "Always provide the full funerary rights for any deceased individual," matbe?

The point isn't to limit things to what you want your character to do. It's to submit him to the burning flame of truth. By going through experiences that are difficult, you should be stronger in the end, 

Ok, must sleep...


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## Kobold Stew (Jan 31, 2011)

Pablohoney said:


> I see it as me calling her out if she steals something and I notice, or not trusting her advice, plans, etc. when it comes to party decisions.




Hey there --

I don't want to say no to this approach, but my sense is that this is especially confrontational (not the specific wording, but the value system here that you're trying to encode in a belief). If that's what you want, then fine, but I expect that calling a thief out if she steals something would happen only once, at which point she would simply leave the party, or would have reasons to see you as a foe. 

That's not how I understood the internal conflict generated by beliefs, though maybe that's because I've only ever played with one table. 

I realize I may be missing something, or misreading -- I guess some of this is i mistrlittlejeans' post too. But this feels to me to be as strong as "Always attack [elves/dwarves]" when there's an elf or a dwarf in the party.  Help the thief reform; show her the error of her ways; make her into an agent for [deity] are all annoying and playable in my mind, but not openly setting the characters at odds. 

IMO.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Jan 31, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> Hey there --
> 
> I realize I may be missing something, or misreading -- I guess some of this is i mistrlittlejeans' post too. But this feels to me to be as strong as "Always attack [elves/dwarves]" when there's an elf or a dwarf in the party.  Help the thief reform; show her the error of her ways; make her into an agent for [deity] are all annoying and playable in my mind, but not openly setting the characters at odds.
> 
> IMO.




Yeah, I agree with this.  That's what I was alluding too with the "Say a prayer for Constance's soul" idea.  that was off the cuff so it could definitely be reworded/improved.  It would still create tension and interesting situations without the immediate confrontation.  Heck, the first few times Avros could just say a prayer; maybe with each passing incident his prayers get more fervent and pointed towards Constance, thereby escalating the tension.

Just ideas.


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## Pablohoney (Feb 1, 2011)

Yeah, this is what I'm struggling with. I think of ideas and then I can't see them playing out in reality because we would just leave each other's presence or kill each other. That's not what I'm going for. I think there is good conflict to be had between Avros and Constance but I see it growing into that. I think it has to start basic, that's why I originally went with "Never trust a pardoner." It's not very concrete but it plants that seed which could grow in a negative or positive direction. I also like the split in Avros' beliefs with him being at odds with Constance, but interested and insistent on protecting her. He is a young paladin and she's a pretty, young woman after all. I can see that tearing at his emotions.


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## Kobold Stew (Feb 1, 2011)

I think we get each other, and thanks for taking my comments the way they were intended. 

Maybe (and I'm just spitballin' here) you could go in the opposite direction: 
"Maybe the Pardoner is right." (or whatever)
That's a belief that can have you working against the church (regretfully) while seeking to indentify the tension between these things. 

I'm nowhere near as good at these things as engrishonly and Malathus. Trust them.


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## Voidrazor (Feb 1, 2011)

How about "Constance is a good person but she's walking down the wrong path. It is my duty to keep her out of trouble whether she likes it or not."


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## Pablohoney (Feb 2, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> How about "Constance is a good person but she's walking down the wrong path. It is my duty to keep her out of trouble whether she likes it or not."




I like this a lot. It's wordy but it gets the point across. This way, it leaves the roleplaying up to me. Thanks all for helping me pin that one down. Now I'll decide on my last instinct and I'm all ready to go.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 2, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> How about "Constance is a good person but she's walking down the wrong path. It is my duty to keep her out of trouble whether she likes it or not."




I agree.  I think this is great.  You could even incorporate the "Say a prayer bit..." into your roleplaying, as in make in a habit to remind Constance she's walking the wrong path.  Or you could use some other little "habit" to do it.  Or you could not do it.  Either way, I like where this is going, and it still leaves plenty of room for growth throughout the game.

So what is the plan now?  Things have slowed a bit.  Are we ready to get back to the action?


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## engrishonly (Feb 2, 2011)

I'll have more comments & the next IC posts tomorrow. Just way too busy over the past couple days.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 2, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> I'll have more comments & the next IC posts tomorrow. Just way too busy over the past couple days.




No worries.  As time permits.


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## Mathalus (Feb 2, 2011)

Depending on how these negotiations go and how much the Captain agrees to our nominal demands, I'd like to fast forward to the next morning pretty soon.

The only other things I'd like to do tonight are:

1. Inform the other members of the opportunity to defeat bandits.
2. Attempt to imbue something.
3. Find some clothes for Vellekhyr to wear.


What are y'all interested in doing before morning?


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## Kobold Stew (Feb 3, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> What are y'all interested in doing before morning?




1. Get into trouble.
2. Offend the church.
3. Threaten innocents with tales of horror.
4. Get ridiculously drunk, and awaken in the arms of a stranger.
5. Steal someone's personal treasures because...

Wait, a sec. You mean in the game, don't you...

Oh. 

Well, I guess the list can stand in that case too.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 3, 2011)

Besides getting even more drunk I"m good to go.  Actually, I wouldn't mind making a Drunking test to impress the tavern's patrons as I mentioned before.  It could be a nice start to building a reputation   What do you say Engrishonly?


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## Pablohoney (Feb 3, 2011)

I wanted to talk to that friar a bit about the evils of the borderlands and also about this militant order he belongs too. I was waiting for engrishonly to get back on my roll, but I'll try to get something up in the IC thread to keep things moving. Other than that, a good night's sleep. I also would be keeping a watchful eye on Constance to see if any trouble arises at the tavern...


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## Kobold Stew (Feb 3, 2011)

...and if we RP it out, there will be trouble in the tavern!


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## Mathalus (Feb 3, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> 1. Get into trouble.
> 2. Offend the church.
> 3. Threaten innocents with tales of horror.
> 4. Get ridiculously drunk, and awaken in the arms of a stranger.
> ...






Pablohoney said:


> I wanted to talk to that friar a bit about the evils of the borderlands and also about this militant order he belongs too. I was waiting for engrishonly to get back on my roll, but I'll try to get something up in the IC thread to keep things moving. Other than that, a good night's sleep. I also would be keeping a watchful eye on Constance to see if any trouble arises at the tavern...




Definitely keep talking to that Friar. He seems like he has some good info. Ask around for rumors. After Engrishonly gets back to it, you two should just go to town in the Tavern. I'll be imbuing and sleeping, and you two can just spam back and forth to your hearts' content.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 3, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Definitely keep talking to that Friar. He seems like he has some good info. Ask around for rumors. After Engrishonly gets back to it, you two should just go to town in the Tavern. I'll be imbuing and sleeping, and you two can just spam back and forth to your hearts' content.




I don't have any skills to help, but I will have a loose tongue so it might be time to try Beginner's Luck with some kind of social skill.


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## engrishonly (Feb 3, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> How about "Constance is a good person but she's walking down the wrong path. It is my duty to keep her out of trouble whether she likes it or not."




Yeah, this is cool. Should work to mine a good amount of arthas.

Also, how about the Traladar/Thyatis theme in this?

The Keep is a projection of Thyatan power from the city of Specularum, and the heart of the Grand Duchy.

I'm kind of looking at the whole thing going on in Egypt, and also having the Iranian revolution in the back of my mind... be careful what you wish for.

Not that a reclamation by the native population leads to problems, but there's no guarantees that taking things "back in time" to the old days will make the future anything like the idealized past.

...

Offending the Church... well, the Friar could be a kind of outsider, in the way of the Traladarans. The Keep has a Chapel dedicated to the Church of Karameikos... so there's an inherent tension there.

Other trouble for Constance... I am thinking about her sister, but I don't want to waste her on a stupid non-event.  She should be in something fun 

Trouble in the tavern... well, the Dwarf could do that through Drunking. Constance could do it through her tales of the unknown, I guess.

Anyway, reformulating ideas as Avros gets into it. I'm not quite ready for an IC post, but I'll try to get to it tomorrow.


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## Voidrazor (Feb 3, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> What are y'all interested in doing before morning?




I'm interested in getting the houses plot going. Perhaps the madman could say something about the 'bandits' being Robin Hood-esque turtles. George RR Martin's House Umber might fit well here, big guys sort of like one a Scottish clan in that they seem barbaric but are ruled by the dictates of honor. 

That or maybe a chance to make good on V.'s threats to Corporal Georg, after getting clothes.


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## Kobold Stew (Feb 3, 2011)

Seriously -- it's okay if we skip to morning.
I just want to play!


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## engrishonly (Feb 3, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> I'm interested in getting the houses plot going. Perhaps the madman could say something about the 'bandits' being Robin Hood-esque turtles.




I didn't really want the "Bandits" to be Bandits. The Chevaliers represent a militant kind of Thyatan suppression of rivals & natives.

How does House Tlielaxu fit with the native Traladaran thing? How about the Church of Karameikos?

Okay, I'd better get to the IC thread now...


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## Voidrazor (Feb 4, 2011)

I figure the Tliel'laxu spy circle would be watching and waiting for an opportunity rather than actively messing with things at this point. If they have a skin dancer on the scene s/he would probably be acting as a porter for the Chevaliers, staying beneath notice while secretly possessing the skins to change identities at a plot appropriate moment.

The Church is probably doing the whole velvet glove and iron fist thing. They most likely encourage the Chevaliers excesses. But peaceful missionaries also try to convince Traladarans that their gods are all aspect of the one true God. So, given that, converting and avoiding all that horrible persecution is just the sensible thing to do.


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## Mathalus (Feb 4, 2011)

Engrishonly, do you mind if I set up a wiki for us on the Burning Wiki site? It might make it easier to keep all of these threads straight. I spent a little while plowing through our various threads looking for stuff and we are starting to generate a lot of deets.


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## engrishonly (Feb 6, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Engrishonly, do you mind if I set up a wiki for us on the Burning Wiki site? It might make it easier to keep all of these threads straight. I spent a little while plowing through our various threads looking for stuff and we are starting to generate a lot of deets.




Yeah, a wiki area would be cool.

Also, regarding the Persuasion test against the Captain... I can't "Say No" and not allow a test, but to summon an entire cadre of heavy cavalry via Persuasion is too much for a test you have a fair shot at winning.

Going through DoW isn't necessarily sensible, but I would have to be specific about what dice are allowable & what dice the Captain can use.


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## Kobold Stew (Feb 6, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> Also, regarding the Persuasion test against the Captain... I can't "Say No" and not allow a test, but to summon an entire cadre of heavy cavalry via Persuasion is too much for a test you have a fair shot at winning.




I don't care if we do a persuasion test or not, but it's clear we have all not yet come together in terms of what we want this game to be. My concept was a social character, because the original pitch was for a sandbox game -- Constance's chances for social tests go out the bucket when we leave town, especially since we're can't get them done in town. So I don't care if it's lie or persuade or intimidate, or (as seems to be the case) nothing. I'm happy to rp talking to individuals if that's going to do anything. But I need to know if I'm just not being clear enough in my intentions, or if I am being clear, what the result is.  

Right now I feel we're all struggling to do anything. Which is fair enough, since we're just meeting each other, and don't know each other's play styles. But there are things than need answers. One character has no clothes. The player chose that (not buying clothes was a choice), and it needs to be dealt with. Another wants armor because we fear we are going to be outclassed if we head off hunting. We're either going to get those things, or we're not. I understand if the answer's no -- we chose not to invest our 3 lifepaths worth of stuff in clothing or armor. But I feel we need to be guided here: call for a roll, or tell the elf to put on a dress, or say there's a single leather breastplate for the lot of us; or tell me I'm way off the mark here. 

If our goal is just to get past the rp stuff to go kill things, I've got the wrong character. But I feel I'm not on the same page as everyone else right now, and I'd like to fix that.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 6, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> I don't care if we do a persuasion test or not, but it's clear we have all not yet come together in terms of what we want this game to be. My concept was a social character, because the original pitch was for a sandbox game -- Constance's chances for social tests go out the bucket when we leave town, especially since we're can't get them done in town. So I don't care if it's lie or persuade or intimidate, or (as seems to be the case) nothing. I'm happy to rp talking to individuals if that's going to do anything. But I need to know if I'm just not being clear enough in my intentions, or if I am being clear, what the result is.
> 
> Right now I feel we're all struggling to do anything. Which is fair enough, since we're just meeting each other, and don't know each other's play styles. But there are things than need answers. One character has no clothes. The player chose that (not buying clothes was a choice), and it needs to be dealt with. Another wants armor because we fear we are going to be outclassed if we head off hunting. We're either going to get those things, or we're not. I understand if the answer's no -- we chose not to invest our 3 lifepaths worth of stuff in clothing or armor. But I feel we need to be guided here: call for a roll, or tell the elf to put on a dress, or say there's a single leather breastplate for the lot of us; or tell me I'm way off the mark here.
> 
> If our goal is just to get past the rp stuff to go kill things, I've got the wrong character. But I feel I'm not on the same page as everyone else right now, and I'd like to fix that.




I think a healthy mix of social and combat play would be great.  I made Aurvang specifically for a dungeon-crawl, but it'd be a shame not to open up some social skills.  I'm expecting a chance to do that.  I'm sure there will be some social situations with the bandits and within the caves.  I'm pretty sure the Caves of Chaos aren't just a closed dungeon with monsters, but I could be wrong.  Anyways, I put my NPC cousin in the Caves, so there should be at least one dwarf t socialize with.

Also, there's no reason Constance couldn't try to persuade/convince 1, particularly starry-eyed Chevalier to join us; if nothing else because he fancies her.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Engrishonly has been extremely busy so most of us have been entertaining ourselves trying to find ways to make tests.  I think things will be more straight forward as we move on.  Also, Avros is finished now, so we have the whole group.

There is one thing I'd like a little clarification with.  I'm still not sure what the protocol is for Tests in BW.  Does the player usually call for a test, or just state their intent/task and then the GM calls for the Test?  I thought it was the latter, but from the boards I've read it seems more like the former.  Maybe it's simply a healthy dose of the two.


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## Voidrazor (Feb 7, 2011)

engrishonly said:


> *GM:*  okay, I'm trying to draw together the Thyatan/Traladaran conflict to the expressions of the conflict within the Elven houses. This is why I asked about the Tlielaxu... I am hoping that there's a point in which your ideas converge with the other player characters, and this is one attempt to start down that path.




Huh? Neither Tliel'laxu nor Umber were intended as Elven houses. I'm hoping to flesh out factions within the Thyatan/Traladaran conflict. The idea being that intrigue flourishes when there multiple factions within the two ostensible sides. So House Tliel'laxu is a minor house composed of Thyatans (with some selkie blood) sworn but not very loyal to House Karameikos. House Umber, if incorporated, would be a minor house composed of Traladarans inhabiting the borderlands region. I also think it would be good to create another Thyatan minor house, more loyal to House Karameikos, that has some sort of titular claim on the borderlands.


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## engrishonly (Feb 7, 2011)

Kobold Stew said:


> If our goal is just to get past the rp stuff to go kill things, I've got the wrong character. But I feel I'm not on the same page as everyone else right now, and I'd like to fix that.




Well, the Keep is a setting in itself, as is the 3+ day journey to the Caves. In the module as written, there are pieces & parts in the Keep that foreshadow the later elements in the Caves, but there's no reason to go through any particular area that doesn't need going through (either in the D&D or BW).

The D&D involves killing them and taking their stuff, and there are the usual humanoids involved in this... but it's not my intent to rule out creative solutions to the issues posed by the Caves of Chaos, just as I don't want to wave it all away through the presence of a band of knights errant.

I also have the sense that there's some circling back that needs to be done, however. Getting the Elven conflict, Thyatis/Traladar, the House Tlielaxu tied in with the setting at hand... It is important to me to figure out more of the interconnections so that you all can work through your Beliefs together rather than what just happens to come along.

In many ways, who & what awaits you at the Caves (and the Bandit camp) is still dependent on the ongoing conversation we are having here.


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## engrishonly (Feb 7, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Huh? Neither Tliel'laxu nor Umber were intended as Elven houses. I'm hoping to flesh out factions within the Thyatan/Traladaran conflict. The idea being that intrigue flourishes when there multiple factions within the two ostensible sides. So House Tliel'laxu is a minor house composed of Thyatans (with some selkie blood) sworn but not very loyal to House Karameikos. House Umber, if incorporated, would be a minor house composed of Traladarans inhabiting the borderlands region. I also think it would be good to create another Thyatan minor house, more loyal to House Karameikos, that has some sort of titular claim on the borderlands.




This is probably a good conversation to have with our Paladin (House Umber especially), and perhaps also our Pardoner (her take on the socio-political conflict between the ruling people & the conquered, especially regarding the pardoned adventurers).

The "ownership" of the Keep is an open question. It is in Thyatan hands... So I agree that there should be a minor Thyatan house, not quite disposable but intended to fall at some point.

Okay, almost time to get on my flight.


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## Voidrazor (Feb 8, 2011)

So yeah, what do you guys want to have in terms of local politics? If the Traladarans in this region are subdivided into something like house Umber, I think it would make sense for them to have close ties to the dwarves (or one of the dwarven clans, putting them at odds with another). Is there anything about the religious conflicts you want to add, or specifically NOT have?


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 8, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> So yeah, what do you guys want to have in terms of local politics? If the Traladarans in this region are subdivided into something like house Umber, I think it would make sense for them to have close ties to the dwarves (or one of the dwarven clans, putting them at odds with another). Is there anything about the religious conflicts you want to add, or specifically NOT have?




I don't really care what the religious make up of the Keep is, since it has little to do with my character.  I do like the idea of having a dwarven clan, or at least some dwarven merchants/nobles or something in the Keep that I can empathize with.  I also like the idea of the Dwarven Host having a presence, which I've already established with my beliefs and relationships.  i think the two could go hand in hand; a wealthy dwarven merchant clan could be paying top coin OR using it's political influence to use the Host of protection of its caravans to and from the Keep.  Maybe it's even looking to expand trade into the less civilized regions, and is using the Host for protection.

Knock yourselves out with religious factions


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## Voidrazor (Feb 8, 2011)

Hmm, it might be interesting if the Dwarven Host was also a pivot point in the human house struggle. If we can assume that the Host is the most fearsome military force in the region (due to numbers, _engineers_, and a vanguard of cavalry-killing Steel 9 bad-asses), then Umber would be courting their favor based off of historical amity, while the Thyatan house would be appealing to Greed.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 8, 2011)

Voidrazor said:


> Hmm, it might be interesting if the Dwarven Host was also a pivot point in the human house struggle. If we can assume that the Host is the most fearsome military force in the region (due to numbers, _engineers_, and a vanguard of cavalry-killing Steel 9 bad-asses), then Umber would be courting their favor based off of historical amity, while the Thyatan house would be appealing to Greed.




That sounds like fun.


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## Mathalus (Feb 8, 2011)

Wiki's up over here:

Keep on the Borderlands - Burning Wiki

It's still very basic. Feel free to edit and stuff.


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 9, 2011)

Mathalus said:


> Wiki's up over here:
> 
> Keep on the Borderlands - Burning Wiki
> 
> It's still very basic. Feel free to edit and stuff.




Looks good thus far.  Thanks for putting that up!


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## Pablohoney (Feb 9, 2011)

In terms of houses and factions, I know almost nothing of the setting. I did a decent amount of reading on the CoK and CoT and some of the basic history of the region but that's about it at this point. I'll try to get a better idea but I'm very interested in the Thyatian/Traladaran conflict. The presence of a Traladaran house would be interesting.


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## Voidrazor (Feb 9, 2011)

I think the setting is intentionally sparse. And if you come up with something that contradicts canon, we'll probably go with it.


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## engrishonly (Feb 12, 2011)

Sorry for the delays... trying to line up another job because the amount of travel I have to do is becoming to be bullsh_t.

I'll be getting to the IC thread this weekend... hopefully we can get back on track.


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## Kobold Stew (Feb 12, 2011)

No worries -- the demands of RL have to take precedence. We're ready when you are.

KS


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## mistrlittlejeans (Feb 16, 2011)

Any news?


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## Kobold Stew (Feb 19, 2011)

still here.


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## Kobold Stew (Mar 3, 2011)

Engrishonly,

can you please tell us what's up?  Are we still on hold, or have you left the game?

Thanks!  KS.

sic transit gloria ludi?


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## mistrlittlejeans (Mar 3, 2011)

I'm still around.


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## Voidrazor (Mar 3, 2011)

me too.


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