# MT delayed?



## xmanii (Feb 26, 2002)

Quote from www.wizards.com/mastertools :

"Some notable changes to Master Tools are currently in development. Its release has been rescheduled. We will post further news when it is forthcoming."

Ummmm, WotC, whats up this time? 

Sounds more and more like vaporware as the days stretch into weeks and into months. Its been about a year and half now (longer now, I just looked), and its been nothing but delays. 

As I am waiting for this vaporware to appear, I will admit that it will take something pretty spectacular to convince me to buy it, after having played PCGen some.

So WotC, the D&D community would like to hear whats up.

Thanks

</soapbox>


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## CRGreathouse (Feb 26, 2002)

What, are you surprised?  I gave up a year ago.


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## Hand of Evil (Feb 26, 2002)

This has been a rumor for a little while now, at least they are confirming it.  

I just wonder how much the beta testing has had in this message?  Are they getting a general 'this is crap' feedback and have to make major fixes.

Maybe we will still see it by GENCON.  HA!

I do think they will pul the plug on it before it gets released.


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## bushfire (Feb 26, 2002)

Actually, I think it just that the Mastertools web page has finally caught up with what Ryan has already posted on the Wotc message boards months ago.

I doubt that the "notable changes" are any that hasn't already been announced on the message boards. I just have serious doubts that the Wotc Web Team would *ever* manage to get a scoop posted.


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## Mynex (Feb 26, 2002)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> *What, are you surprised?  I gave up a year ago. *




Uhrm... Beta Testers were selected in January and Beta Testing itself startd in February.

I know this for fact, as I am a Beta Tester (can't speak for when Alpha Testing was done though).

And no, I can't say anything about how it's going, other than it is in Beta test and there is feedback going to WotC.

It's not Vaporware, and there's been no official or unofficial word from WotC about pulling the plug.

Will it be seen by/at Gencon?  No idea, but it would be nice.

As for WotC's MT website... well, they've not exactly been up to date now have they. 

I would wait for Ryan Dancey to post about such things, as he's the man in charge of the MT project.


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## Fast Learner (Feb 26, 2002)

Yah, just confirmation of the "late 2nd quarter to GenCon" timeframe already revealed.


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## CRGreathouse (Feb 26, 2002)

Mynex said:
			
		

> *Uhrm... Beta Testers were selected in January and Beta Testing itself startd in February.*




I am fully aware of this.  It hasn't changed my mind, though.


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## EricNoah (Feb 27, 2002)

That's fine -- WotC and Fluid are well aware that MT as it is initially released won't be everyone's cup of tea.  It has some neat features that no other program currently has, but also fails to deliver in some areas that other programs/spreadsheets/etc. currently deliver.  In any case, testing proceeds, bugs are being squashed, and I've been using the program regularly in my games for some time to great benefit.


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## WizarDru (Feb 27, 2002)

Beta-testers, I merely request one thing: *USABILITY *.  If you can drive no other point home to Ryan's team, make it this one.

I like PCgen more and more with each release, but it's interface is still like pulling teeth.  All I ask is for an application that simplifies my work as a DM, not forces me to reinvent my process.  I don't want to do things the MasterTools way or the PCgen way...I want to do them the _WizarDru_ way.

There are a ton of applications out there that do PART of what I want, and my expectations for MT aren't that dramatic.  I merely want a simple tool with clean output, and an even cleaner interface.  

Deliver that, and I'll deliver my money.  It's that simple.  I know some folks have an almost pathological desire to see MT fail, but I'm not one of them.  I'd love to see as many quality tools thrive as possible....because they each improve the quality overall.


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## bolen (Feb 27, 2002)

Maybe Eric you can shead some light on this.  I do not understand why this is not Wizard's highest priority project.

It really seems to me that interfacing the game and computer are a natural combo.  But Wizards seems to place this as a nice extra side project.  Read how long it is taking.  What is the thought process here.


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## EricNoah (Feb 28, 2002)

The thought process I can't say, but the history has been laid out many times.

MT as it was initially envisioned was to be a tool for crafting adventures: encounters, individual NPCs, PCs, monsters, maps, traps, treasures, etc.  Over the course of months that it has been in development, many changes in direction were made.  By whom I don't know.  Some of the things that happened were unforseen (i.e. Hasbro having rough financial times and axing Hasbro Interactive).  The result, however, was that for a very long time the highest priority seems to have been placed on the isometric mapper and the monster "models" and sounds that would accompany that.  Unfortunately, this ultimately turned out not to be the direction that Master Tools would take.  Now the focus is simply on two main things: the character generator part, and the monster/race generator part.  In addition, some kinds of customizers are in place.  They do anywhere from a "barely adequate" job to a very complete job of allowing users to customize certain kinds of data.  

At this point it appears that MT is at a "make or break" stage.  It has to come out soon, which means it will initially have just a few of the "tools" that one might want.  If the initial product is successful enough, Fluid will likely develop additional tools -- more customizers, more complete customizers, more data (things like in the class books, psi handbook, FR books).  At this point the big question is ... will MT as it currently appears be "enough" to get people to open their wallets?  I honestly don't know if it will be.  I've never been good at guessing what people will like or what people will spend money on.  I for one will certainly spend the dough on it, as even a buggy, half-done version has been extremely useful in my campaigns, but I do know full well it won't do everything I ever wanted.  But then no program so far has.


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## CRGreathouse (Feb 28, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *At this point the big question is ... will MT as it currently appears be "enough" to get people to open their wallets?  I honestly don't know if it will be.  I've never been good at guessing what people will like or what people will spend money on.*




This is certainly the big question.  Your favorable reviews of MT are the only reason I have any hope at all for it.  I'll wait to see what others say when it comes out, and judge then.

I honestly don't think it'll be successful enough to merit more investment, but perhaps it will.  I just hope WotC and Fluid don't lose much money on it...


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## EricNoah (Feb 28, 2002)

Hmm, maybe it's time for a poll.  Something like "how much would you be willing to spend on Master Tools"?  It's certainly too late to really have the poll have much sway, and people are always going to say they'd rather have it for free.  

Me, I'd easily spend as much as I'd spend on a typical computer game -- somewhere in the $40-50 range -- for the base MT as it currently stands (character generator, monster generator, race customizer, and the "no frills" customizers built in).  I would hope that "small" add-ons would be somewhere in the $10-20 range, and large add-ons would be somewhere in the $30 range, and that I could have a pretty complete collection of goodies overall (class books, FR stuff, and psionics plus the core stuff and maybe an upgraded suite of customizers) for under $100.  As much as I use the computer for doing my D&D stuff it would certainly be worth it.


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## gariig (Feb 28, 2002)

It sounds like MT is turning into CC2(or CR2)...You buy one piece that does some good stuff, but to get the better stuff you will need to dish out additional cash.  I can see getting all of the class books for $100 a good deal(you have a indexable, editable, printable version).  However, I own all of those, the FRCS, MoF, LoD, etc. I don't want to dish out huge sums of money to have that information.

However, MT could be worth it if the databases are implemented in a descent fashion(allow hyperlinking and what not) and are editable for what Gariig wants to have.  I hope MT delivers this, I liked CR2(with the expansion) and I just hope MT has enough customizability to make it useful.

Also, a good SDK would help sales, if some of the D20 electronic aid coders can make something to help it out, all the better.

In addition to MT, we still have Realmscrafters to rely on...

Gariig


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## Mynex (Feb 28, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Me, I'd easily spend as much as I'd spend on a typical computer game -- somewhere in the $40-50 range -- for the base MT as it currently stands (character generator, monster generator, race customizer, and the "no frills" customizers built in).  I would hope that "small" add-ons would be somewhere in the $10-20 range, and large add-ons would be somewhere in the $30 range, and that I could have a pretty complete collection of goodies overall (class books, FR stuff, and psionics plus the core stuff and maybe an upgraded suite of customizers) for under $100.  As much as I use the computer for doing my D&D stuff it would certainly be worth it. *




Hrmm... I can't let that one lie... sorry Eric.  But MT as it currently stands, i wouldn't pay nearly that much.  Small add-ons should be support for books (not nesc new tools) for 5$ (I mean come on, If I've paid 30$ for a comapaign setting, I shouldn't be forced to pay another 30$ for the capability of using it in the 'official' programs.

Major Releases (major Tool Additions) I can see maybe being 15-30$ depending on what kind of functionality we're talking about.  But I'm not shelling out 300$ to get a software program that supports ALL the WotC products and delivers all the tools that were promised initially.  That's just not cost effective for me personally, I'd rather buy books with that much. 

I'm not saying I won't buy MT, But I'll probably wait a bit before I do, to see what'll happen... I expect most of the features that people want, will be made by 3rd party Code Monkeys.

We'll see.  Hopefully the input we BT give will help MT be a better 1st round product.  All we can do is report the problems and make suggestions.  It's up to WotC to decide whether to listen or not to the suggestions. *shrug*


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## smetzger (Feb 28, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Me, I'd easily spend as much as I'd spend on a typical computer game -- somewhere in the $40-50 range -- for the base MT as it currently stands (character generator, monster generator, race customizer, and the "no frills" customizers built in).  *




The only reason I would pay that much for a character and monster generator is because I am writing similar software and may want to interface with MT.  Otherwise I would only spend $25-30.

I think MT is going to end up like Core Rules.  Remember the first release of Core RUles?  It blew chunks.  The 2nd version was much better (although it still fell far short of what I am looking for).


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## thalmin (Mar 1, 2002)

I guess a big question for me is if I can generate npc's quickly. If MT will let me do somthing like set up a band of 10 orc outlaws ranging from 1st to 5th levels, all using crossbows, my work as a DM would be greatly simplified.


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## EricNoah (Mar 1, 2002)

No random generation (other than scores) of characters in MT.  For a band of orcs, you'd have to make them by hand.  It goes pretty quickly, probably the most time consuming would be giving them equipment.


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## Ds Da Man (Mar 1, 2002)

IT WONT EVEN GENERATE A BAND OF ORCS!!!!!! Sounding pretty crappy to me. Thank god for PCGen and RPM.


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## CRGreathouse (Mar 1, 2002)

Ds Da Man said:
			
		

> *IT WONT EVEN GENERATE A BAND OF ORCS!!!!!! Sounding pretty crappy to me. Thank god for PCGen and RPM. *




That's no too bad - my preferred generator* won't, either.

* Microsoft Word.


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## gariig (Mar 1, 2002)

CRGreathouse said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's no too bad - my preferred generator* won't, either.
> 
> * Microsoft Word. *




Microsoft Word, huh?


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## CRGreathouse (Mar 2, 2002)

gariig said:
			
		

> *Microsoft Word, huh? *




It's the fastest generator I've ever seen.  I just click "New Document" and start typing very quickly.  Since I know the relevant rules by heart, it only takes a few minutes to complete a reasonably complex character.  Simple characters are easier - an orc warband of 10 + leader would only take about 7 minutes.


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## Thaytor (Mar 2, 2002)

To those who are wary on what they will pay for master tools 
how much did you pay for CR...? 50 ...CR update...?30   ..CR2?80  CR2 expansion?50  250 dragon mags ? 65  FR atlas? 45...  rough prices but no more than 10 over for a total of 320 ...  plus $30 per core book plus $20 for supplements with phb dm and mm and the 10 supps that is another $390 for a rough total of $710 in 2nd ed stuff 
how much is invested so far in 3rd $20 for phb $25 for dmg $25 mm  $20 per supp times 6 total $190 ...  lets face it we are trying to make wizards rich  but don't skimp on what you will pay we will all  pay around $60-$70 on mwt.  grumble about how it does not do what we want it to do and buy the expansion set ...

   What I would like to see is $50 or so initial release w/ phb dmg and mm info.   supps at $10-15 a shot preferably  2 supps per disk...  and a monthly update from dragon.


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## EricNoah (Mar 2, 2002)

Ds Da Man said:
			
		

> *IT WONT EVEN GENERATE A BAND OF ORCS!!!!!! Sounding pretty crappy to me. Thank god for PCGen and RPM. *




Let me clarify.

If you want your run-of-the-mill orc from the MM, the steps are:

Start MT
Click Open, browse to Monster folder
Click Orc
Click Stat Block
voila, you get an orc just as from the MM, including gear, skill points spent, feats spent.

If you want to tweak him, you can -- add different equipment, spend skill points differently.  That's more clicks.

What you don't get randomly is a 5th level barbarian orc with a flaming double axe.  You'll need to craft that guy by hand.  And... I've already said too much but just needed to make sure you understood that standard monsters are very few clicks away, while classed monsters (or "advanced" monsters) take a little more time because you have more choices to make.


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## poilbrun (Mar 2, 2002)

My main complaint about MT is simple : as it is done by WotC, you will only ever see products by WotC supported, whereas in program as PC Gen, you have materials from a variety of sources... MT may be better than PC Gen or not, but as I use a lot of third party products, I won't pay for MT, since I know that when it is released, it will only have the 3 core rulebooks, and afterwards will only support the WotC stuffs. Does it mean MT sucks? Certainly not, but unfortunately, people who like 3rd party products as me will be very disappointed IMO...


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## noretoc (Mar 2, 2002)

I also have to say that MT is IMO a complete waste of money that any programmer could haev had done by now, with the little content in it.  I'm sorry, but it is all frills, bells and whistles I think.  The Character generator is pretty good, but it is mosty interface.  The data is small.  I know people want a nice clean interface, but I would really rather have something that will do just what I need.  As a DM, we need Something to quickly get stats for monsters, npc, with the ability to go in and take more time if we want to.  I really like core rules.  It was pretty perfect for what I wanted.  If I wanted a fast encounter, I could say five npc 2 thiefs, 2 fighters, 1 cleric, at level 5-6.  Bang, all there with equipment.  If master tools can't handle this, it has no use for me.  I can fill out a character sheet just faster than I could go through the intercace, and if I just wanted stock monsters, I would just go to the book.  There is a nice stat block there with hit points and everything.


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## thalmin (Mar 3, 2002)

*I also have to say that MT is IMO a complete waste of money that any programmer could haev had done by now, with the little content in it.*
That's fine for you programmers who had the time and ability to make one on your own. But for us with lesser computer skills we kinda need a program like MT that can be easily purchased and installed and then used.


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## Hatchling Dragon (Mar 3, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *And... I've already said too much but just needed to make sure you understood that standard monsters are very few clicks away, while classed monsters (or "advanced" monsters) take a little more time because you have more choices to make. *




No, acutally what you said was 'just right', or nearly so.  Now, if you wouldn't get into too much (more) trouble, could you mention if you can *Copy* a character/monster you've created?  This of course would speed creation of 'packs', as not every single individual will vary all that much once you've established the 'core' creature.

Let me just point out that the little bit you 'let slip' has stopped my enthusiasm for the MT project from totaly derailing.  I rarely ever bother to even look at 'official' release information, as of course it's totally biased and self-serving tripe, understandably so of course.

Maybe they would re-consider the 'Web Enhancement' of a book to being the plug-in for MT instead of just stuff you'd have to print out.  Or they could add whatever 'goodies' into the plug-in module, no need to print anything then.

Hatchling Dragon


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## machine (Mar 4, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *Me, I'd easily spend as much as I'd spend on a typical computer game -- somewhere in the $40-50 range -- for the base MT as it currently stands (character generator, monster generator, race customizer, and the "no frills" customizers built in).  I would hope that "small" add-ons would be somewhere in the $10-20 range, and large add-ons would be somewhere in the $30 range, and that I could have a pretty complete collection of goodies overall (class books, FR stuff, and psionics plus the core stuff and maybe an upgraded suite of customizers) for under $100.  As much as I use the computer for doing my D&D stuff it would certainly be worth it. *




Count me in on Eric's opinion on MT.  Hell, I bought a laptop to do my DMing for.  I currently use scanned maps, excel spreadsheets, and Word for my tasks.  It doesn't have the nice artwork of a DM screen, put it is good.   MT can only help my game and prep time.

machine.


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## CRGreathouse (Mar 4, 2002)

machine said:
			
		

> *MT can only help my game and prep time.*




I wonder about that for myself.  If I was to buy Master Tools, would it save me *any* time at all?

I don't know.


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## EricNoah (Mar 5, 2002)

Hatchling Dragon said:
			
		

> *
> could you mention if you can Copy a character/monster you've created?  This of course would speed creation of 'packs', as not every single individual will vary all that much once you've established the 'core' creature.*




Sure.  The monsters, characters, and races are saved out in individual files (.mon, chr, and .rac files, respectively).  The main MT screen has a File menu with an Open command, and from there you can browse either to monsters/races/characters you've created, or to the "Core" folder where the pre-built stuff is. You can open an existing file, make some changes (including leveling it up if it's a character, or "advancing" it if it's a monster), and then Save As with a new name.  

I don't think this is an NDA violation as this was demonstrated to me at GenCon last August and I don't think that was "off the record."


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 5, 2002)

Hey Eric,

As your GenCon demo is not under the NDA, I have a question specifically on that topic.

As I recall, you built a Troll Wizard.

Looking at the DMG, is is not possible to create a Troll with an INT greater than 10.  Did MT simply ignore this rule?  Or how did it work?


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## EricNoah (Mar 5, 2002)

The INT score generated by MT was inadequate for a wizard character to be able to cast spells, so you could go into the stats and just bump them up to whatever you wanted.  MT does follow the rules on what INT score gives you access to what level of spell, I just chose to override the troll's scores.


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## Axiomatic Unicorn (Mar 5, 2002)

Thanks


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## CRGreathouse (Mar 6, 2002)

EricNoah said:
			
		

> *The INT score generated by MT was inadequate for a wizard character to be able to cast spells, so you could go into the stats and just bump them up to whatever you wanted.  MT does follow the rules on what INT score gives you access to what level of spell, I just chose to override the troll's scores. *




This brings up an interesting question - do you know if the troll's Int was just lowered by 4 or if Table 2-6 in the DMG (page 23) was used?


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## Plane Sailing (Mar 8, 2002)

noretoc said:
			
		

> *I also have to say that MT is IMO a complete waste of money that any programmer could haev had done by now, with the little content in it.  *




With due respect, the problem in programming for MT isn't the "little amount of data". As in almost all programming it is catering for the exceptional conditions. If it was just fancy look up tables then it would be a relatively trivial task to do, but if they want to ensure that when creating an opponent every rule and cross-ref is faithfully managed... that takes more time and effort.

Of course Jamis Buck has got his famous NPC generator done more quickly - but he doesn't have interactive modification built in (nor managers pulling him in different directions!).

I'm as disappointed as the next person that MT will not be what I was originally hoping for... a tool to help me design and plan my adventures, draw my maps and manage my campaign. I'm sorely disappointed that someone(s) at WotC really lost track of what they were going to do.

Nonetheless, the programmers working on it are neither incompetent or foolish. The re-scoped project is going to be useful for some people (viz Eric), hopefully it will be enough for others too.

Regards (in the name of programmers everywhere)


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## towngen (Mar 9, 2002)

Most programming issues that I've seen people complain about (here and elsewhere) have nothing to do with the programmers.  They are marketing and business decisions.

When a video game is released that is full of bugs, I would guess that it rarely has much to do with the quality of the programmers.  Sometimes, yeah, but not all that often.  Likewise, if MT is being delayed again and again, does anyone really think it's the programmers fault?  This is not charity work, they are writing that program to make a profit and that's it.

If you ask an architect to design a suspension bridge and when he is half way through, you say "no, never mind, we need you to design a tunnel under the harbor instead."  Do you fault the architect for being too slow?  Or do you think he is spineless because he didn't tell the people who hired him to stick it and finish designing the bridge anyway?

Now what if they are halfway through actually building the bridge and that's when they decide to build a tunnel instead because the bridge didn't look right?  I would say it's still the management's fault for approving the design to begin with.  And of course, management is going to blame marketing to realizing 6 months too late that people don't want bridges they want tunnels.  And marketing is going to blame the architects for taking too long on the design and making them miss their market window.  But that was only because the whole schedule was written by some crack-smoking flunky with an MBA who remembers from some school textbook that bridges normally take 6-8 weeks to build and never bothered to actually ask the architects.

So now do you know why I am a self-employed programmer?


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## Luke (Mar 9, 2002)

> I also have to say that MT is IMO a complete waste of money that any programmer could haev had done by now, with the little content in it.



Remember that they were secretly working on making an interactive internet-enabled game, with an interactive 3D mapper and sound. It was only late in the game that MT was reduced to effectively being a statblock generator.
The difference between the visions for the two versions products is phenomenal, especially if the internet-enabled game supported a high level of automation (I can tell you from experience).

That would more than explain where all the programmer time disappeared to, but, if you're lucky, they've tried to maintain enough of the original structure for an easier upgrade to the original vision in a much later release.

Regards,


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## jester47 (Mar 12, 2002)

Luke said:
			
		

> *
> Remember that they were secretly working on making an interactive internet-enabled game, with an interactive 3D mapper and sound. It was only late in the game that MT was reduced to effectively being a statblock generator.
> The difference between the visions for the two versions products is phenomenal, especially if the internet-enabled game supported a high level of automation (I can tell you from experience).
> 
> ...




I remember them talking about those changes a while back.  When I saw the 3D Gnoll I was pissed.  I was thinking:

BEGIN RANT

"NO, I need campaign management tools, not some stupid cartoony internet thing!  I want a tool that allows me to make maps (in 2-D that look like the campaign maps for Greyhawk and FR, and dungeon maps that look like the ones in the modules), that lets me generate NPCs with a minimum ammount of work,  one that lets me generate towns, villians, monsters, places, and magic items.  That is all I need.  I dont need sounds, I dont need stupid graphics of Gnolls and crap.  I need campaign management software.  Serious software.  Powerful software.  Pretend you are making Excell for Dungeons and Dragons!  Because you ARE!"   

END RANT

What I want is a program that allows me to make PCs, NPCs, traps, and magic items and will spot check my work for me according to the rules published.   

If that is what I am getting than I will buy it.

The ability to make maps (cool ones like the ones in the modules) would be nice.  The ability to add the cool stuff I read in dragon (like prestige classes) would be nice. 

This is all I ask.  And I am sure that most of the people that want tools for D&D want the same thing.  Trust me, we are legion.

Aaron.


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## Leopold (Mar 12, 2002)

I can tell you this. It's my goal that I collect enough generators to be able to click on a button and I am instantly able to generate anything that the PC's could come up with.

Do I need a town? Oh towngen (when it's done) there it is!

Monsters coming? Call up the monster generator, randomly assign the cr and viola! Instant encounter.

Want to go spelunking? Call up jamis bucks dungeongen and watch it go!

Facing the final baddies that you designed? Call up pcgen and there's your NPC that you desgined from Scarred lands, iron kingdoms, and your OA book!

Wait you forgot to give him a treasure hoard! Call on jamis' again and you got your loot!


With all these in place so far sans the top 2 (towngen is coming and I cannot find a monstergen that runs random encounters and is free) I have a toolbar set aside for me to just one-click away and i can create anything I want to view on my laptop from maps to monsters and bad guys.

Best part of it? free all free...


Now if MT could do that at a low price I would be impressed and agree that it was worth every waiting period. But unfortunately it won't be able to do 1/2 that. 


If anyone wants a copy of the program you can download it here:
http://rpg.plambert.net/generator/generator.htm

pick which version you would need. the non-java one is for those that don't have Java 1.31 or higher already installed on their machine.


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## annadobritt (Mar 13, 2002)

I would like to see a program that helps to strictly design adventures and maybe a write up for a campaign setting.

I like the looks of Towngen so far, and RPM is a great program too, but my main focus is in designing an adventure.  I don't have enough time to play in any rpgs, so keeping track of character's actions and experience points isn't something I'm really interested in.

Anna M. Dobritt
Freelance Cartographer
http://rpgmaps.mortality.net


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