# Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince-SPOILERS!!!!



## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

SPOILERS






SPOILERS






There, you've been warned.  This thread will have Spoilers for HPatHBP.



OK, Snape is evil?  I don't buy it.  Lame plot twist.  Dumbledore's not that much a fool.

And I love Luna.


I'm only up to page 195 (Harry just saw who owned his Potions book).  Spoil away my wrongness or rightness on Snape, but I might not be back until I'm done with the book.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> SPOILERS
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> ...





Oh, and I do like Snape finally getting the Defense Against the Dark Arts job.

Hmmmm, maybe Snape is evil and Dumbledore is just using him (since Snape won't blow his cover and will actually be a good teacher for this subject) until he turns back to Voldemort....


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

SO does it seem that all Slytherins are evil after all?


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## Dakkareth (Jul 16, 2005)

Ahh, got it a few hours ago, now on page 222. 

Nice to see Harry getting his share for taking unnecessary risks.

I already like to dislike Slughorn and Snape is brilliant as usual.

Mmmhh, starting to see where the Half-Blood Prince might come from, though significance and consequences haven't even had a chance to be revealed, yet.


Having fun here, nice reading so far .


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> SO does it seem that all Slytherins are evil after all?




Haven't ready any more yet (I'm on page 195)....but, no.

The new professor, Horace Slughorn (who is teaching potions, which frees Snape up for DAtDA), is a former head of Slytherin House who appears obnoxious, but not evil.

I think he even mentions that Sirius Black's brother was in Slytherin, and then there's a reference that Sirius's brother (forgot his name, sorry) was killed shortly after turning against Voldemort.

Still, it's the best predictor for evil wizards in the series so far.  Not all Slytherins are evil, but all evil wizards are Slytherins (or something like that).


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

Do they show any other young Slytherins than Draco or his bullies?


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> Do they show any other young Slytherins than Draco or his bullies?




Well, the lovey-dovey girlfriend of Draco (Pansy Parkinson).  [shudder]

And a new guy names Zabini.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> Do they show any other young Slytherins than Draco or his bullies?




Oh, and a flashback to Voldemort's grandfather, uncle, and mother.  Pleasant little family.  The mother & uncle were fairly young in the flashback, but beyond Hogwarts ages, I think.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Omigod, Hermione's in love with Ron!!!!!!!!

My evidence is the fourth full paragraph on page 227.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

OK, anyone else think Slughorn is the Half-Blood Prince?

Perhaps he gave that book to Harry on purpose (knowing what it was).

Just a thought.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

Is this Zabini an interesting character?

I haven't read it yet, but I know who the HBP is.....


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> SPOILERS
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You see, Dumbedore believes that there is good with everybody, but sometimes even he might make mistakes.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Does the phrase "hook up" have the same 'one-night-stand' connotation in the UK as it has recently developed here in the US?



			
				HPatHBP said:
			
		

> "Yes," said Hermione angrily.  "But obviously if you'd rather I hooked up with McLaggen. . ."




Or is Hermione just a slut?!


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> You see, Dumbedore believes that there is good with everybody, but sometimes even he might make mistakes.




Right.  And Dumbledore could be playing a (very dangerous) game of using Snape until Snape openly returns to Voldemort's fold.  I hope Snape is just trying to double-cross the Dark Lord--I guess I want Harry to be wrong about Snape.  And given how often Harry is wrong, well, maybe he is wrong about Snape.   But chapter 2 is pretty compelling that Snape is a bad guy---which is why I think he isn't.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

There are some really funny lines in the book.

p. 313 - "Girls were very strange sometimes."
p. 314 - "Harry was left to ponder in silence the depths to which girls would sink to get revenge."

As the father of a 14-year-old girl, I can only anticipate with dread the remainder of my daughter's teen-age years.


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## Psion (Jul 16, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Omigod, Hermione's in love with Ron!!!!!!!!




Is this news?


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Is this news?





No, but I thought it wouldn't "happen" until book 7.

It's real teen-age stuff, which I haven't had to witness in years.


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## Psion (Jul 16, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Does the phrase "hook up" have the same 'one-night-stand' connotation in the UK as it has recently developed here in the US?
> 
> 
> 
> Or is Hermione just a slut?!




Even in the US, I often understood it to principally mean "get in a relationship with."

Not that I haven't heard it in the way you make out... but it's sort of a context thing. In a bar or a party, it means what you are talking out. In a schoolyard, it sounds like a bf/gf thing.


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## Dakkareth (Jul 16, 2005)

Mmmhhhh. Some random observations and theories:


I was wrong about the Half-Blood Prince.

Malfoy can be turned.

Snape isn't evil either.

Harry and Ginny, either way it couldn't have lasted.

Multiple phylacteries, nice idea.

I also like the 'competition between dark wizards' bit I read out of the R.A.B. letter. No idea who it might be, though.

It should have been 'inferii'.

It felt to me like the book was rather short.

Or maybe that was just the way things seemed to fall in place miraculously even without magic at work. 

Harry will meet Dumbledore again, in some form.

My sister is already waiting to get the book.

I need to read it again soon, I read rather fast in my curiosity.

Let's hope, Rowling doesn't lose her touch. Potential for that I sense.

I'm going to stop annoying you now.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

Is there a big battle with Death Eaters similar to end of 5th book? 

What happened with Death Eaters captured in Department of Mysteries?


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## Dakkareth (Jul 16, 2005)

There's a battle, but it happens off-screen mostly. The captured death-eaters are in Azkaban, though without dementors to guard them.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

Any sightings of Wormtail? Are there any scenes with Voldemort? Do we get any imformation about the war and how it is going? What about Neville?


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## Dakkareth (Jul 16, 2005)

Wormtail is being pushed around by Snape in one scene. War information ... oh yes - *opens the newspaper, "Anyone we know dead?" "Nope, not today."*  And lots of Voldemort scenes, though none in the present.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 16, 2005)

Just finished.  My thoughts: Whoa.  Didn't think JK would have the guts to do that.

And I guess the key question for Book 7: who is RAB?


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Just finished.  My thoughts: Whoa.  Didn't think JK would have the guts to do that.
> 
> And I guess the key question for Book 7: who is RAB?




Let me guess? Regulus Black, who is working with Snape.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 16, 2005)

Good bet -- maybe that's why Voldy offed him?  The question is are there then 3 or 4 Horcruxes remaining, then?

Will D return as a ghost, or will his painting provide advice?  Guess we'll find out in about 2 years ...

Those looking for spoilers or plot synopsis can get a good summary here.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> Is this Zabini an interesting character?




No.

He barely gets mentioned in the second half of the book.

Of course, JRK manages to work in a refernce to S.P.E.W.  :rolls eyes:   Thankfully, it's only one reference.

Overall, I liked it.  But I like "Prisoner of Azkaban" and "Order of the Phoenix" better.

This one did seem a bit short.  Also felt like JKR left out character development to add more plot.  I felt like some scenes were just a plot summary.  And how many times do we need to read a paragraph about how it feels to apparate?  Once, is not enough, apparently.

And there was much too much about love.  What is this, The Fifth Element?  And Harry pulls a Spiderman ("we can't date; it's too dangerous for you.")--like that'll stop Voldemort from attacking Ginny?  She's still a close friend, and the sister of his best friend.  And the daughter of two Phoenix members.  She's marked already.  Date her, Harry!

The death was great.  Glad JKR had the guts to do it.  Loved the whole scene--what everyone did--the victim, the witness (or didn't do  ), the assassin, the assassin's backup....

For some reason, the fight at the end, I really liked.  And I would like to see Joss Wheedon direct the fight.  No opinion on Joss Wheedon directing the rest of the movie.  But the fight just seemed like his style.  Maybe that's because a lot of it's "off screen" and I think that technique worked well on Buffy.  Maybe it's also neat because the fight (what we see of it, anyway), happens after the death.  But, overall, I still like the fight at the end of "Order of the Phoenix" better.

All in all, a fun read.  But not one of the best books of the series at all.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Good bet -- maybe that's why Voldy offed him?  The question is are there then 3 or 4 Horcruxes remaining, then?
> 
> Will D return as a ghost, or will his painting provide advice?  Guess we'll find out in about 2 years ...
> 
> Those looking for spoilers or plot synopsis can get a good summary here.



 Based on Harry's talk with Nearly-Headless Nick in "Order of the Phoenix" I don't think D will return as a ghost.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

What is the scale of the final battle? I heard it happens at Hogwarts and werewolves are taking part.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Yes, but a lot of it is offscreen, and recounted later and everyone tries to sort out the facts (and blame themselves for letting Snape & Malfoy get away).

The focus is on the big death scene on top of the Astronomy tower, while the battle rages below (in the tower).  So, Harry has to move through the battle to follow S&M.  And, once outside, Hagrid gets involved.  They're trying to stop S&M before they get outside the gate and can disapparate away.


Yes, there is a werewolf involved.  A very bad one, who killing people even though it's not a full moon.  Apparently, he likes to eat children.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 16, 2005)

It's actually fairly small scale -- only a handful of Death Eaters taking part (and one werewolf).  The battle at the end of Book 5 is "bigger".

Book 6 is more of a chase scene -- the battle itself basically takes place "off screen", so to speak.

---

Another thought:  In commentary on the 3rd movie, JK makes a statement that the director inadvertantly shows a location that will be significant in Book 6 or 7 -- and that people will appreciate the foreshadowing when they finally get there.  If it was Book 6, it wasn't completely obvious to me.  I sort of think the base of the tower and pumpkin patch where Aragog is buried ... but I'm not certain.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Yes, but a lot of it is offscreen, and recounted later and everyone tries to sort out the facts (and blame themselves for letting Snape & Malfoy get away).
> 
> The focus is on the big death scene on top of the Astronomy tower, while the battle rages below (in the tower).  So, Harry has to move through the battle to follow S&M.  And, once outside, Hagrid gets involved.  They're trying to stop S&M before they get outside the gate and can disapparate away.
> 
> ...




Interesting, I will try to get this book in Paris... By off-screen, do you mean similar level of description as in final of 5th book when Order members appeared? Are Dementors or giants involved too? What is the general attitude of Slytherin house towards Harry and Dark Lord?


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Another thought:  In commentary on the 3rd movie, JK makes a statement that the director inadvertantly shows a location that will be significant in Book 6 or 7 -- and that people will appreciate the foreshadowing when they finally get there.  If it was Book 6, it wasn't completely obvious to me.  I sort of think the base of the tower and pumpkin patch where Aragog is buried ... but I'm not certain.





Interesting.  I may have to watch the "Azkaban" with commentary track!


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> Interesting, I will try to get this book in Paris... By off-screen, do you mean similar level of description as in final of 5th book when Order members appeared? Are Dementors or giants involved too? What is the general attitude of Slytherin house towards Harry and Dark Lord?




Yeah, sort of similar to Book 5.  Except in book 5, we saw more of the action.

It's Harry, Dumbledore, Draco Malfoy, 3 (or 4?)* Death Eaters, and then Snape--all (eventually) on the top of the tower, as the battle rages somewhere below them.  One of the death eaters is the world's nastiest werewolf.  Lupin is somewhere below (I think*), so he's totally off-screen.

Then, Harry runs through the battle, not knowing who has died (but knows that at least one person *not* from the rooftop has died).

Then the chase across the yard.  Much cursing and counter-cursing, in which Snape reveals himself to be the Half-Blood Prince before leaving with Malfoy.  I think all the other death eaters get killed or captured.*

No dementors.

No giants.

Almost all werewolves follow Voldemort (who basically has promised them "food' if they help him).  Lupin has been trying to infiltrate the werewolves but can't gain their trust very easily (even though he is a werewolf).



*don't ever get old & senile kids.  I just read this less than two hours ago and can't remember exactly how many were there.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

And, uh, one of the other death eaters actually blasts the over-eager werewolf since Malfoy is supposed to do the job himself.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 16, 2005)

But I thought that most elite DE's of Voldemort are in Azbakan, or were they freed? So are there new ones introduced? And if they are captured too, Voldemort lost most of his army!


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Sorry, I don't remember the exact details.

A lot escaped toward the end of book 5 ("Order of the Phoenix").  Several are still at large at the end of that book, but some are captured (like Lucius Malfoy) some have done nothing illegal (that we see anyway) and are free (like Narcissa Malfoy), and some avoid capture (like Bellatrix Lastrange).

There are just more death eaters introduced as individuals in this book (at the end), as opposed to a generic "a bunch escaped" or "many were captured" statement.  And Harry suspects that Draco Malfoy is now a death eater with the mark on his arm.  Though I don't remember this actually being confirmed, so we don't know for sure.

Oh, and Voldemort apparently can animate the dead (called inferi?), so he'll have an entire army of undead to help him, as well.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 16, 2005)

DE participants are Malfoy, Snape, Fenrir (the werewolf), Amycus & Alecto (new as far as I remember), and Gibbon (killed by "friendly fire").

Another thought ... inconsistency?  You're not supposed to be able to Apparate withing Hogwarts grounds -- yet the House Elves do it.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Another thought ... inconsistency?  You're not supposed to be able to Apparate withing Hogwarts grounds -- yet the House Elves do it.



 Well, that's because most people apparate as a Spell, but house elves apparate as a Supernatural Ability, so the ward against Apparation does not apply to them.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 16, 2005)

So why wouldn't the Death Eaters use House Elf assassins?


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 16, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> I need to read it again soon, I read rather fast in my curiosity.
> 
> I'm going to stop annoying you now.





I think this book can be read fast & you will not miss anything.  It just seems "light" to me in that way.

And you're not annoying anyone.  Keep posting!


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 16, 2005)

Yeah, 650 pages ripped by pretty quick, even for me (and I routinely do 100 pp per hour).

I think the text isn't very dense -- at normal printing densities, I'd guess this would be about a 400 page book.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 17, 2005)

*The Theory About Snape*

My Theory About Snape

OK, here's my theory about Snape and my prediction for book 7.

I think he's a good guy.
I think he is deep undercover for The Order of the Phoenix.
I think he views Draco as the son he never had.
I think he's trying save Draco's soul, by preventing Draco from making the same mistake he did (siding with Voldemort).

Snape did not want to kill Dumbledore, but had to (1) to save Draco's soul, and (2) to avoid dieing from the "Unbreakable Vow" he took.  He was not concerned about dieing himself, except that he wants to hang around to save Draco.

Thoughts?


I guess we'll find out in two years or so.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 17, 2005)

I am interested in overall attitude of Slytherin House towards lord Voldemort, Death Eaters and Malfoys.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 17, 2005)

Yeah, I tend to agree.  I think Snape was playing both sides hard, but in the end was not willing to harm Harry, so he's probably good.  He was forced to kill Dumbledore because of the vow.  I think, too, that Dumbledore knew the end was near for him, and he intentionally sacrificed himself so Harry could succeed later -- I think that's the best explanation for the explicit orders at the end.

The question is: will Harry kill Snape, or forgive him?  Somehow, I see Book 7 as being a bloodbath ... Draco, Snape, Wormtail, miscellaneous Death Eaters, and Voldemort all likely to die.  I wouldnt be surprised if Harry dies in the end, as well.

I suspect Harry will at least begin year 7 at Hogwarts, though.  The pattern of the series -- start at the Dursleys, transition to the Wizard world, go to Hogwarts, and into the depth of the plot -- is too ingrained to break in the last book.  I expect Hermione will be using the library to research their next moves, for example.


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## Dakkareth (Jul 17, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> It just seems "light" to me in that way.




My impression on finishing it, on a gut feeling level, was that it didn't have that much substance, seemed shallow somehow. Not that it wasn't fun, but ... well, as I said, before judging I'll have to read it again .


Mmmhh, Snape wanting to help Draco ... I hadn't thought about that angle much, but it could well be decisive.



My theory so far is pretty close to Barendd's - Snape works not for Dumbledore as such, but for the Order of the Phoenix and what it represents. In killing Dumbledore he sacrifices the White Queen, but he deems it *necessary* for the chess game to be won. Maybe Dumbledore foresaw this, maybe not, either way he saw the necessity in the end.

I don't have the chess-player understanding of the situation at hand, but the end gambit planned might include:

Draco, the Pawn of Black, turning into a White Bishop through inside knowledge.

Harry, the Pawn of Black, reaching the enemy baseline through the Queen's sacrifice and becoming Queen of White himself, effecting the ultimate defeat of Black.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 17, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> I am interested in overall attitude of Slytherin House towards lord Voldemort, Death Eaters and Malfoys.




Now that you bring it up, I don't think it's really covered in this book at all.  Which is a bit odd!

In previous books, there's a real "all Syltherin members are potential Death Eaters and can't be trusted" tone.  And that's (strangely) missing in this book.  At least, I didn't see it in my one reading of the book.  Hmmmmmmm....


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 17, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> Yeah, I tend to agree.  I think Snape was playing both sides hard, but in the end was not willing to harm Harry, so he's probably good.  He was forced to kill Dumbledore because of the vow.  I think, too, that Dumbledore knew the end was near for him, and he intentionally sacrificed himself so Harry could succeed later -- I think that's the best explanation for the explicit orders at the end.
> 
> The question is: will Harry kill Snape, or forgive him?  Somehow, I see Book 7 as being a bloodbath ... Draco, Snape, Wormtail, miscellaneous Death Eaters, and Voldemort all likely to die.  I wouldnt be surprised if Harry dies in the end, as well.



Good questions/issues for book 7.  Now, when is it coming out?!?!?  

I can't see Harry forgiving Snape for killing Dumbledore--ever.  Even if Harry knows about the vow, even if Dumbledore ordered Snape to "follow orders no matter what" knowing that he would die, etc., etc.  Harry's just stubborn that way.  And as he told the new Minister of Magic (twice, no less), he's a Dumbledore man, through & through.




			
				Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> I suspect Harry will at least begin year 7 at Hogwarts, though.  The pattern of the series -- start at the Dursleys, transition to the Wizard world, go to Hogwarts, and into the depth of the plot -- is too ingrained to break in the last book.  I expect Hermione will be using the library to research their next moves, for example.




Except that at the end of this book he says he's not coming back to Hogwarts even if it's open.  He also says that he will be returning to the Dursley's, but it will be a brief visit.  I think he's gonna collect his things and bug out without a look back.  Or, try to--and something will happen (like the dementor attack in book 5).


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 17, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> My impression on finishing it, on a gut feeling level, was that it didn't have that much substance, seemed shallow somehow. Not that it wasn't fun, but ... well, as I said, before judging I'll have to read it again .
> 
> 
> Mmmhh, Snape wanting to help Draco ... I hadn't thought about that angle much, but it could well be decisive.
> ...




Like the chess analogy.  Maybe we'll get to see Ron play another key game of "Wizard Chess" in the final book--a nice link back to the first story.  

Draco's been a real twit all along, sort of a bragging bully:  "I'm so kewl 'cause I'm evil!"  Then, when push came to shove, he couldn't do it--his heart wasn't in it.  And Harry witnessed that.  *And Dumbledore knew that Harry saw that, too.*  If Harry hadn't seen that scene, well, his feelings about Draco would just continue as they always have.  But now, he know's that Draco's not 100% evil--perhaps this was Dumbledore's final gift to Harry.


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## Hijinks (Jul 17, 2005)

R.A.B >> Something Amelia Bones?  We know Voldemort killed her... perhaps she had the real locket and has hidden it somewhere?

Very sad to lose Dumbledore   Poor Harry loses everyone who stands up for him...

I don't think book 7 will be set at Hogwarts.  For one thing, he said he's not coming back.  For another, the same formula year after year at Hogwarts is getting old, probably for JKR as well.  I would very much like to see Harry out in the world, since a month or so after the end of this book here he will be considered "a man" at seventeen, and his friends are all seventeen as well.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 17, 2005)

He may have said he's not coming back, but since Hogwarts has been the center of the entire series (look at the inside flap where each book is "Year XX at Hogwarts") I think it's unlikely to change.  The majority of the peripheral characters are tied to Hogwarts -- you'd lose Ginny, Luna, Hagrid, McGonagal, etc, if it doesn't remain a key location for Book 7.  I can't see Hermione not going back to school for the 7th year.  I expect something will happen that convinces Harry to return, if only for a while.

Since he probably passes his Apparition test, I think he and his pals use Hogwarts as a safe base of operations, sneaking off the grounds to Apparate off to wherever they need to go, then returning.

I also suspect, based on the last memory involving Riddle, that Voldemort wants to return to Hogwarts himself for some reason.  Perhaps the ultimate key to victory is hidden there at the school , and only the DADA teacher can access it -- which explains his interest in the job, his push to get Snape the job, and the reason every DADA teacher is undermined.  That's a crackpot theory, anyway.

Some other ideas:  Who takes over Hogwarts, and who are the Head of House for Book 7?  I think McGonagal becomes Headmistress, Slughorn takes back over Slytherin, and Hagrid takes Gryffindor -- but mostly 'cause I can't think of good alternatives.  We'll need a new DADA teacher again, too (once again, a recurring plot device -- Snape was doomed as soon as he took the job.  If he weren't so young, I'm nominate Harry).

There's the Head Boy/Girl question, too.  I'll bet Herminone gets Head Girl, but I suspect some other House will have the Boy (Ernie Macmillan?) -- unless there's a Head Boy and Girl from each house.

I enjoyed many of the links to the first book in this one -- the bezoar, for example, and Ron winning the Quidditch Cup (remember his vision in the Mirror of Erised?).


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## KenM (Jul 17, 2005)

I heard book 7 will have Harry going to throw a ring into a volcano.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 17, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> I heard book 7 will have Harry going to throw a ring into a volcano.




And he'll have to use a broom to get there, 'cause you know you can't Apparate inside Mt. Doom.  Unless you're a House Elf.

------------------


Here's my outline for Book 7:

- Opens with a backdrop of what is going on in the world.  Things are looking really bleak with Dumbledore gone, and the Order of the Phoenix is fragmenting.
- Scene with Malfoy and Snape
- Harry is at Number 4, biding time until his birthday when he must leave
- Harry goes to the Burrow for Bill & Fleur's wedding.  While there, he taskes & passes his Apparition test with Ron.
- He visits Godric's Hollow and the graves of his parents, and vows to find and destroy Voldemort.
- Hermione and the Weasley parents convince him to return to school; he plans to use Hogwarts as a safe base of operations for his counter-Voldemort campaign.
- Usual trip to purchase supplies; information gathering in Diagon Alley- Return to school; meet new teachers, etc. Trio begins research in earnest.
- Learns that RAB was Regulus Black, and the first Horcrux is either in the possession of Kreacher, or hidden at 12 Grimwauld Place.  The trio locate & destroy it.
- Interference at the school by Death Eaters -- something they want is still within Hogwarts
- Horcrux #2 is a relic of Ravenclaw's, and is located and destroyed.
- Trio tracks down and fights Nagini, Horcrux #3.
- The last Horcrux is hidden deep within the school grounds (Forbidden Forest, perhaps).  A race between Death Eaters and the trio to locate it culminates in a battle.  Werewolves play a key roleMalfoy or Snape is captured, interrogated, and turns due to remorse over DUmbledore's death.  Gives Harry the secret he needs to destroy Voldemort.
- Trio tracks Voldy to his lair, Wormtail & associated Death Eaters die, Order comes to the rescure, but not before Harry & Voldy face off.  Voldy falls.  End of War.
- Denoument, and we learn what happens to the students for their future.  Relationships are resolved, etc.
- Side plots involve Ginny & Harry, Ron & Herimione, Neville & Luna, Ron as Quidditch captain, the new DADA teacher, Hagrid & Grawp, and the House Elves.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 17, 2005)

I think more than just the trio will be involved in the major tasks.

What saddened me most about book 6 is that when Harry put out the call to the members of "Dumbledore's Army" only Luna and Neville responded.  WTF?  Do the other students want Voldemort to win?!

So, it might just be the trio + 2.

And Neville has to kill Bellatrix (or at least capture her).  He'll finally get his revenge for what she did to his parents.

I don't think Hagrid will take over Gryffindor.  We'll either see a new character brought in for that--or someone else.  Hagrid never really graduated from Hogwarts; I don't think the new head of the school would put in charge of a house.  With all of her kids at school or grown up, Mrs. Weasley would be a good choice--and someone that Minerva McGonagal would trust to do the job right.


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## ruaalien2 (Jul 17, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> Mmmhhhh. Some random observations and theories:
> 
> 
> I was wrong about the Half-Blood Prince.
> ...




We haven't seen the last of Harry & Ginny, IMO. With the way he ended things with her, it makes mething that isn't over with.

Snape is evil, and I don't think that Harry will ever be able to forgive him, both for the death of his parents (he was the one that told Voldermort the prophecy) and for the death of Dumbledore. Although I think that he is evil. he is trying to do some good by tryign to save Draco. 

Draco wouldn't have had the guts to kill Dumbledore, I'm starting to think that underneath it all he's not that bad.


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## Lord Rasputin (Jul 17, 2005)

ruaalien2 said:
			
		

> We haven't seen the last of Harry & Ginny, IMO. With the way he ended things with her, it makes mething that isn't over with.
> 
> Snape is evil, and I don't think that Harry will ever be able to forgive him, both for the death of his parents (he was the one that told Voldermort the prophecy) and for the death of Dumbledore. Although I think that he is evil. he is trying to do some good by tryign to save Draco.
> 
> Draco wouldn't have had the guts to kill Dumbledore, I'm starting to think that underneath it all he's not that bad.




It's pretty clear (to me at least) that, should both survive, Harry and Ginny will wind up together. Ron and Hermione, they need to get a room. Really, I know this is young adult oriented, but at some point, the thought of nookie will pass through the mind of a pair of seventeen-year-olds.

And a few seconds later, it will pass through again.

Snape's allegiance is to Snape. Things are deliberately ambiguous with where he will wind up. Personally, he'll bite it at some point in Book 7, but not before messing things up for both Voldemort and for Harry. He wouldn't have it any other way.

Draco has always been a coward, as witnessed by his adventure in the forest in the first book. I do wonder when Harry will figure out that Dumbledore died to save Draco's life -- he wanted Harry to witness this.


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## Dakkareth (Jul 18, 2005)

ruaalien2 said:
			
		

> Snape is evil, and I don't think that Harry will ever be able to forgive him, both for the death of his parents (he was the one that told Voldermort the prophecy) and for the death of Dumbledore. Although I think that he is evil. he is trying to do some good by tryign to save Draco.




Ok, let me clarify: Snape is not Evil. He certainly is an evil jerk, he hates Harry and cares mostly for himself, but he is neither the vile person Voldemort and some of his Death Eaters are, nor does he work for V. Not in the long-term anyway.


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## Piratecat (Jul 18, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> What saddened me most about book 6 is that when Harry put out the call to the members of "Dumbledore's Army" only Luna and Neville responded.  WTF?  Do the other students want Voldemort to win?!




I think you're misinterpreting. Hermione used the enchanted coins that they had used in the previous year, but most of the kids no longer carry them and so didn't get the message; only Luna and Neville still had their's on them and knew to come.

I liked this book a lot more than Order of the Phoenix for a few reasons.

1. Rowling doesn't do the annoying "Harry ignores important clues until it is essential to the plot, just to make time pass."  She starts to with Slughorn, but resolves it before it gets excessive.

2. Harry has almost completely stopped whining and being a moody, bratty prat. Thank goodness.  

3. Sirius's death in the last book felt really strained. The climax of this book was much more satisfying to me.

4. Dumbledore clears up the reasoning behind what I thought was a comparatively lame prophecy.

5. The adults - almost all the adults - have become much more complex and interesting. This process has been a lot like maturing. In the first books, the adults were cut from Roald Dahl's mold, completely stereotypical and one-sided in a very fun way, as a yound child might see them. As Harry matured, the adults gradually revealed greater depth and intricacies that have made them really interesting. . . just as a maturing teen might realize about the adults around him or her.

Thumbs up from me.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 18, 2005)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I think you're misinterpreting. Hermione used the enchanted coins that they had used in the previous year, but most of the kids no longer carry them and so didn't get the message; only Luna and Neville still had their's on them and knew to come.




What? Misinterpret something, after reading a 650 page book with only 3 hours of sleep?  Impossible!  

Seriously, I hope you're right.  But if someone had one of those coins, why not still carry it?  It's a great chance to get an early warning of an attack; whether you choose to rush to someone's aid or flee to safety is an entirely different concern.


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## drothgery (Jul 18, 2005)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> 4. Dumbledore clears up the reasoning behind what I thought was a comparatively lame prophecy.




I kind of think that if JKR was going to kill him off, she should have done it in book 4 or 5, unless her intent in book 7 is to have most of the wizarding world frightened, confused, and disorganized when Our Heroes get a lucky shot and take down Voldermort. I've said before that I think Dumbledore is probably the only one that could hold the fractious bunch that is the Order of the Phoenix together; none of the adult members of the Order have both the magical talent and the temperment to do so, and Harry is too inexperienced. Which means a lot of good-guy infighting in what should be the final book of the series.


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## Demmero (Jul 18, 2005)

Lord Rasputin said:
			
		

> It's pretty clear (to me at least) that, should both survive, Harry and Ginny will wind up together.




Or one will make a sacrifice to save the other.  I felt so stupid when it finally hit me today that Harry and Ginny are virtually mirror images of James and Lily Potter (Harry looks just like his dad and Ginny has the same red hair as Lily).  I get the feeling that whatever sacrifices were made to save Harry's life will be somehow reflected in Harry's final encounter with Voldemort.



			
				Lord Rasputin said:
			
		

> Snape's allegiance is to Snape. Things are deliberately ambiguous with where he will wind up. Personally, he'll bite it at some point in Book 7, but not before messing things up for both Voldemort and for Harry. He wouldn't have it any other way.




Quite possible.  He doesn't seem to truly be serving Voldemort; his reasons for NOT killing Harry that he gives early in Book 6 have flown out the window by the end of that book.  He should kill Harry then when the opportunity presents itself but doesn't.  Maybe he's hoping Harry will defeat Voldemort and then Snape himself can become leader of the Death Eaters.  Or maybe he's deep undercover and working with the Order of the Phoenix to destroy Voldemort.

Dumbledore seems MIGHTY certain that Snape can be trusted, and usually the headmaster's wisdom can be trusted.  Snape made one Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa Malfoy; who's to say Dumbledore didn't make him take another one when he first applied to teach at Hogwarts?

I have a suspicion that while Snape hated James Potter he may have had other feelings for Lily.  Maybe Lily wasn't supposed to be home the night Voldy attacked, and Snape's sincere sorrow about his Death Eater days comes from her death in protecting Harry.  I've always thought it strange for a professor to flat-out hate the son of someone he hated back in his own school days without giving the kid the benefit of the doubt first.  Maybe when he looks at Harry he sees Lily's eyes looking back at him.

I was REALLY surprised that we learned next to nothing (again!) about Harry's mother; she's got to be unveiled in Book 7.



			
				Lord Rasputin said:
			
		

> Draco has always been a coward, as witnessed by his adventure in the forest in the first book. I do wonder when Harry will figure out that Dumbledore died to save Draco's life -- he wanted Harry to witness this.




I agree.  Maybe Dumbledore wants Harry to be able to do something similar when he confronts Snape again (assuming that Snape's not wholly evil).

As much as I hate Draco, I'm working on a theory that maybe somehow he (and not Harry or Neville) is The Chosen One.  Although I don't believe Malfoy's birthday is ever revealed, he's one of the few 6th-Year students too young to take Apparition classes (so his birthday's at least in the same neighborhood as Harry and Neville's).  In OotP, Dumbledore claims that the prophecy means that The Chosen One "would be born to parents who had already defied Voldemort three times."  If that's true, then I'm wrong.  But in Book 6, JKR gives us three examples of the Malfoy family defying Voldemort (Lucius by slipping Riddle's diary into Ginny Weasley's cauldron back in Book 2, Narcissa by speaking to Snape about Draco's situation, and then Draco himself by not killing Dumbledore when he had the perfect opportunity).

I'm kinda digging this theory


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## Uzumaki (Jul 18, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> I also like the 'competition between dark wizards' bit I read out of the R.A.B. letter. No idea who it might be, though.




Regulus A. Black, Sirius's brother. Was I the only one who realized this right away? Unless we found out what his middle name was and I just forgot. It was never stated specifically that he was dead, not that that means you're never coming back, obviously. The locket is in 12 Grimmauld Place. Betcha.  

Besides agreeing with everything PCat said, I also liked how Rowling actually made Draco a threat in this book. It's always bothered me that he's never been more than a bully, when there's essentially an agent of Voldemort in the school. 

As I was reading, I wondered how Rowling was going to fit in finding the other phylactr-, I mean, horcruxes, the duel with Voldemort, and the wrap-up, as well as squeezing in the standard Hogwarts hijinks, so Harry deciding not to return to finish his last year wasn't wholly surprising. In fact, I was pretty happy about it. Rowling finally seems to be straying from some of the cliches she fell back on in earlier books.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Jul 18, 2005)

I haven't read the rest of the thread yet.  I just want to mark, for myself, where it was when I started reading.  My wife has just finished.  I'm off to bed and I'll start reading in the morning.  I' actually just about a third of the way through rereading HPIV:GoF, but I think that I'll go ahead and skip ther rest of IV and all of book V.  I think I remember them well enough.


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## Storminator (Jul 18, 2005)

I think Snape is deep undercover. He's got impossibly good credentials with the Death Eaters right now.

He started teaching the DADA students nonverbal spells, then he pointed out just how very important that is by deflecting every one of Harry's spells at the end, and pointing out that Harry needs to use nonverbals and close his mind better if he wants to succeed. 

Snape is the key to defeating Voldemort.

PS


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 18, 2005)

Storminator said:
			
		

> I think Snape is deep undercover. He's got impossibly good credentials with the Death Eaters right now.
> 
> He started teaching the DADA students nonverbal spells, then he pointed out just how very important that is by deflecting every one of Harry's spells at the end, and pointing out that Harry needs to use nonverbals and close his mind better if he wants to succeed.
> 
> ...




I hope you're right!  Snape has been doing his best Snively Whiplash to Harry's Dudley Doo-Right since book 1--at least in his treatment of Harry.  I think JKR likes twists & turns, so I find it hard to believe that all of Dumbledore's trust is for naught.  And what does Dumbledore say at the end of book 6?  I don't remember his saying, "Help me" but just saying "please" to Snape.  Now, was that a "Please, help me" or was it a "Please remember your task, Severus" plea from Dumbledore?


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 18, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> Harry, the Pawn of Black...




It hurts your analogy that some of the characters are named Black.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 18, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> And I guess the key question for Book 7: who is RAB?




…ah, yes.

Well, my real name is Rubin Aloysius Blunderbuss. 

That said, I do think Snape is a black-hearted villain. And as for turning an apparently evil character to good, somehow I don’t see Harry turning Draco and then Draco tossing Voldemort down a convenient power-shaft.

Any dates for the release of the last book?


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## Xath (Jul 18, 2005)

I like the theory that Regulus Black is RAB.  It would explain alot.  However, even if the locket had been stashed at 12 Grimawld Place, I think Rowling has given us enough clues that it's not there anymore.  

Mundungus Fletcher, anyone?


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## Xath (Jul 18, 2005)

As much as I despise Snape right now, a part of me is pretty sure he's not evil.  I was always ready to side with Harry when he said Snape was evil in the other books, but this time I have my doubts.

Remember how Nearly Headless Nick said that Snape and Dumbledore had had an arguement?  Snape had said that he didn't want to do it anymore and Dumbledore told him that he had to.  I think Snape completed the Unbreakable Vow under orders from Dumbledore.  

Harry had suspected Malfoy of doing plenty of evil things, and had informed Dumbledore.  But none of the evidence Harry had given was enough to prove to Dumbledore that Malfoy had been behind the previous attacks.  Dumbledore had to have been learning from Snape.  He didn't know the whole story because Malfoy wasn't telling Snape everything.

Also, I don't think Malfoy is going to become completely evil.  It was proven in this book that the only reason that Malfoy was fighting for Voldemort was out of the love he has for his mother (and himself).  And Dumbledore said that those who can love cannot be truely corrupted. 

I think that if the Death Eaters hadn't intervened, Malfoy would have joined Dumbledore.


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## Zog (Jul 18, 2005)

Personally, I think Dumbledore was wrong about Nagini.  Its Wormtail - or at least his hand.  His most faithful servant, the ONLY truly faithful one.  And he owes Harry his life....  Which we have been waiting to matter since book 3 - so it has got to pay off in book 7.

One other explaination for the 'Snape really isn't that evil' is the Dumbledore was dying.  Snape helped with the curse that killed his hand - he would have known that it was still slowly killing Dumbledore.  So at the end, he was asking Snape to finish it, put him out of his misery.  But...  Snape could just be evil.  Evil, evil, evil.  And unless Snape sacrifices himself to save Harry (or Ron, Ginny or Herminone), Harry will never believe otherwise.


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## wolff96 (Jul 18, 2005)

*Dang*



			
				Xath said:
			
		

> I like the theory that Regulus Black is RAB.  It would explain alot.  However, even if the locket had been stashed at 12 Grimawld Place, I think Rowling has given us enough clues that it's not there anymore.
> 
> Mundungus Fletcher, anyone?




You beat me to it...

I think the fact that in such a fast-moving book, JKR took the time to showcase the scene with Fletcher and the stolen property is probably important.

I had to go back to Book 5 to look at the chart again, but the logic tracks clean:
1) Regulus takes the Phylactery.
2) Taunts Voldemort with the note. (Does this indicate that Voldemort checks them occasionally?)
3) Regulus is killed. 
4) The cleaning occurs for the OotP moving in, but Kreacher keeps stealing away treasures...
5) ...which are in turn stolen from him by Fletcher.

If I had to guess, it's going to become a major plot point -- the last one was taken and sold and Harry has to track it down.


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## Cutter XXIII (Jul 18, 2005)

Hope this hasn't been answered, but...

Who or what is the Half-Blood Prince? What's the significance?

(I read the first chapter of Book I and tossed it away, and saw the first two movies but never bothered to see the third. So...I don't really _care_ but I'd like to know.)

Oh, and is this the penultimate book in the series?


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## Hijinks (Jul 18, 2005)

> His most faithful servant, the ONLY truly faithful one.




Wormtail is petrified of Voldemort, not loyal.  Loyalty only goes so far in cowards.  I don't think Wormtail would be as obedient if he thought he had a chance to be free to Voldemort forever.


Severus Snape is the Half-Blood Prince.   Otherwise, since you don't really care, I'm not going to go into the plot points


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## Desdichado (Jul 18, 2005)

Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> Who or what is the Half-Blood Prince? What's the significance?



Snape.  He's half witch half Muggle in his parentage, and his mother's maiden name is Prince.  It's a cute little nickname he had at Hogwarts himself, based partly on a pun of his own creation and partly on wishful thinking on hi part.


			
				Cutter XXIII said:
			
		

> Oh, and is this the penultimate book in the series?



Yes.

Personally, I liked it quite a bit better than the last one.  It was darker and more mature, it ended with a bit more cliff-hangery ending than the last, it left lots of open questions and whatnot, and really upped the stakes considerably in a way the last book didn't.

I did miss the humor element; it had a few moments, but overall wasn't as funny as the last several books.  I think I miss seeing more of Fred and George, personally.  I think Harry and Ginny are a great couple--she's a good match for him the last few books where we've really seen more of her personality; better than Hermione.  I've actually predicted them together for several books now.  She kinda gave me the impression at the end that she wasn't going to have anything to do with his whole Spiderman nobility thing.

And Harry was much more likeable in this book.  He kinda got on my nerves last book.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Snape's not evil after all.  Dumbledore knew all along that if he himself didn't die that Malfoy would--he admitted as much on the tower.  I also don't buy the idea of Malfoy being able to hold Dumbledore helpless, no matter how worn out Dumbledore was.  I think all along that the argument Snape and Dumbledore had was that he wanted to Snape to kill him to spare Malfoy.  The parallel there is Dumbledore making Harry promise to do what he said no matter how much he didn't want to--I thought the emphasis on that was rather obvious.  I also thought the whole "Snape is evil after all, and we're showing you in chapter 2" was way too obvious a play for Rowling; it's not like her.  I'm highly convinced that it's all a ploy; Snape was acting on Dumbledore's orders after all all along.


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## Werdnam (Jul 18, 2005)

Honestly, I was a bit bored by this one for the first 400 or so pages.  I'm oversimplifying, but it seemed in the first two-thirds of the book, the most gripping mystery was the need to get Slughorn to tell his secret.  Admittedly, it was a crucial secret, but I didn't find the buildup and resolution very interesting.  The book really started going when Harry and Dumbledore went on their mission and stayed that way through to the touching end (although I think it was a mistake to recount the "off-screen" battle in as much detail as JKR used -- for me, it really broke the momentum the book had at that point, and they were details that I didn't see as particularly necessary).

This is much how I felt about _Order of the Phoenix_, too (boring start, thrilling end); thankfully, as others have pointed out, Harry was tolerable in this one!  I'm a bit sad that I've been so disappointed with the last couple of books, as much as I enjoyed the first four.

I was really glad to see some glimmer of a change in the Malfoy/Potter dynamic.  And I'm with the camp that thinks that Snape is deep undercover; in Harry's last confrontation with Snape I really felt that Snape was trying to teach Harry some things.  I hope we learn why it was that Dumbledore had such unwavering trust in Snape.  And who knew that the series was, in the end, going to turn into a find-and-destroy-the-mcguffin quest?  I'll be interested to see how it all plays out in the end.


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## Wombat (Jul 19, 2005)

Hew boy ... lot to chew on this time...

Overall I found this book to be brilliantly flawed.  I agree it is much better than _Order of the Phoenix_, but not quite up to the level of  _Goblet of Fire_.  

There are several things that annoy me with the book, matters that keep me from labelling it "dead brilliant".

1)  Harry is doing well in Potions because he has Snape's annotated book.  But Snape has always been very secretive and private -- why would he just happen to leave his book with his notes behind?  I would think that he would either take the book with him or else have copied his notes into a larger grimoire and destroyed this one.  Somehow this simply seems out of character.

2)  Tonks & Lupin.  This felt just incredibly forced.  Last time we saw Tonks (about 2 months before) she is bright, bouncy, happy and has never shown any inclination at all towards Lupin.  Now she is morose, moody, not eating right, and generally a little black rain cloud.  Somehow this simply doesn't jibe.

3)  Grawp is now civilized enough to be at the funeral ... why?  What has happened to change him?  This, again, felt like an abrupt change and a tack-on.

4)  Why wasn't Slughorn upset/worried/angry later after Harry had wormed the truth out of him?  Given his general character, he seemed to take the whole matter rather easily!

But for all that and all that, there were some absolutely brilliant touches as well, and in the end they outweigh the problems.  

Both Slughorn and Harry are gathering groups to them.  Harry's loyalists are unannounced, but they are there.  Just like Dumbledore he is slowly builing up a circle of folks who are devouted to him simply because of who and what he is, not because of what he might offer or get them.  Equally, again unlike Slughorn, he asks for and expects nothing in return.  I found this a wonderful parallel.

Yes, Dumbledore believes in the power of love.  He feels it is more powerful than anything else in he world, and in this book we got love in every form possible -- first love, twisted love, self-love, true love, teen angsty love, love of family, love of group.  We also got the inverse, perverted forms of these, with loyalties drawn out of fear or hatred, with evil not even trusting its own, and love that is merely selfishness.  I think this was wonderfully played out.

Did anyone else feel there was something important to Harry being able to cast the sectumsempra spell?  This was obviously an evil spell, one that did great physical damage.  After reading that section all I could think of was Bellatrix's taunting of Harry near the end of OOP -- that he couldn't cast an Unforgiveable Curse on her because he didn't _mean_ it, that you have to really _want_ to cause pain to make such spells effective.  This may set the seal on Harry's relation with Malfoy.  

Is Malfoy redeemable?  Sure.  Obviously he hesitates at the last minute, and this shows either extreme cowardice (not likely) or dawning morality (much more likely).  Will Harry allow Malfoy to be redeemed?  This is open to a lot of debate...

As to Snape ... I don't know.  I know he has further roles to play.  I feel he will be there At The End, but to what purpose it is difficult to say.  I think Snape wanted to fight for Dumbledore, but was compelled by the Unbreakable Oath, but why would he enter into the Oath in the first place, given that he would know what that choice would probably lead to.  

Just a few random thoughts


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## Staffan (Jul 19, 2005)

Wombat said:
			
		

> 4)  Why wasn't Slughorn upset/worried/angry later after Harry had wormed the truth out of him?  Given his general character, he seemed to take the whole matter rather easily!



This one, I can explain. Slughorn was very drunk at the time, and Harry seemed pretty certain that he wouldn't remember anything about it come morning. And since Harry was on Felix at the time, he was right about that.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Jul 19, 2005)

Snape's behaviour was pretty strange in Spinner's End when he made the vow, he seemed to really care about Narcissa and Malfoy. He didn't act like a bad guy. I think he treats Draco like a kind of son, but it is not everything....

I think the reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape so much wasn't fully revealed. His regret after Potters died....- Voldemort promised to spare Lily, he told it to Harry that she wasn't supposed to die. Why it was repeated so much that Lily was good at potions? It seems to connect her with Snape. 

So maybe Narcissa's love for her son reminded him of Lily. I think Narcissa could also die for Draco.... Maybe Lily asked Snape to protect Harry?


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## Demmero (Jul 19, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> Why it was repeated so much that Lily was good at potions? It seems to connect her with Snape.




I noticed this as well.  It seems to me, though, that in previous books it was remarked that Lily's specialty was Charms.


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## Rotogar (Jul 19, 2005)

Dakkareth said:
			
		

> I also like the 'competition between dark wizards' bit I read out of the R.A.B. letter. No idea who it might be, though.




My guess?  Regulus Black.


----------



## Rotogar (Jul 19, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> I hope you're right!  Snape has been doing his best Snively Whiplash to Harry's Dudley Doo-Right since book 1--at least in his treatment of Harry.  I think JKR likes twists & turns, so I find it hard to believe that all of Dumbledore's trust is for naught.  And what does Dumbledore say at the end of book 6?  I don't remember his saying, "Help me" but just saying "please" to Snape.  Now, was that a "Please, help me" or was it a "Please remember your task, Severus" plea from Dumbledore?




Not to mention the previous conversation between Snape/Dumbledore where Dumbledore reminds Snape of his duty and that D. will hold him to it.  I believe that was foreshadowing the eventual killing.


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## cignus_pfaccari (Jul 19, 2005)

Rotogar said:
			
		

> My guess?  Regulus Black.




Almost certainly.  I believe that's the only character we've ever heard of who might have those initials.

From my ex-GF (who's scarily into HP):  Also, note that Regulus is believed to be dead, but, in either 4 or 5, Luna mentions a singer named Tuby Slugman or something who looks an awful lot like Sirius Black.  This, perhaps, could be Regulus hiding under an assumed identity.

Now, how might Regulus have gotten through the defenses that nearly wrecked Dumbledore, the greatest wizard of his age, and his chosen apprentice?  Simple...Regulus helped put them in place, and knew the back door that Voldemort left for himself.

My hypothesis is that Voldemort used Regulus, obviously a deep and abiding Death Eater, to assist him in hiding the Horcruxes*.  At some point Regulus realized what was going on, decided that, despite his absolute hatred of mudbloods and half-breeds, that really, this Voldemort dude was a freak, and sabotaged some of Voldemort's Horcruxes to screw him over when he most needed it.  Obviously, he didn't get all of them, as Tom Riddle's diary was one of them.

Now, here's a question...why didn't he go to the Order?  Obviously, his brother was in it, and they would gladly accept someone with clues as to Voldemort's weaknesses.  They accepted characters with less stellar credentials (*cough*Snape*cough*), so why not go to them?  I'm currently thinking he's still a worthless git, but maybe he figured it was too important to risk his newfound anonymity and kept on the search.

Brad

* - When in Books-a-Million, I pulled out a Monster Manual to show ex-GF the D&D hippogriff, dragons, etc.  I paused on the lich and noted that, really, that's what Voldemort was.


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## Xath (Jul 19, 2005)

Also, Snape kept protecting Harry to the end.  Every time Harry tried to use an Unforgivable Curse, Snape deflected it before Harry could actually complete it.

Any speculation on who the next Deputy Headmaster/mistress is going to be?


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## Xath (Jul 19, 2005)

Wombat said:
			
		

> 1)  Harry is doing well in Potions because he has Snape's annotated book.  But Snape has always been very secretive and private -- why would he just happen to leave his book with his notes behind?  I would think that he would either take the book with him or else have copied his notes into a larger grimoire and destroyed this one.  Somehow this simply seems out of character.




They explained this.  Snape didn't want Dumbledore to find out that he had invented those types of dark spells, so he kept the book where supposedly noone would find/use it.  After all, it was an old book and it was used for students who didn't have their own.  Do you really think that Snape, as potions teacher, would have let an unprepared student borrow a book?  No.  He would have let them suffer.  



> 2)  Tonks & Lupin.  This felt just incredibly forced.  Last time we saw Tonks (about 2 months before) she is bright, bouncy, happy and has never shown any inclination at all towards Lupin.  Now she is morose, moody, not eating right, and generally a little black rain cloud.  Somehow this simply doesn't jibe.




I think it does.  It actually makes perfect sense, and Mrs. Weasley explained it herself.  In the dark times, people realize that they need to take their chances today because they might not get the opportunity tomorrow.  Tonks told Remus her feelings.  He, fearing something would happen to him, rejected her.  

If you think the morose, moody behavior is odd, you obviously don't know women very well.



> 3)  Grawp is now civilized enough to be at the funeral ... why?  What has happened to change him?  This, again, felt like an abrupt change and a tack-on.




Hagrid has been working with him steadily.  He hints in the begining that he's been making progress, and says that Dumbledore helped him find the cave, which suggests that Dumbledore had some sort of involvement in Grawps behavioral development.



> 4)  Why wasn't Slughorn upset/worried/angry later after Harry had wormed the truth out of him?  Given his general character, he seemed to take the whole matter rather easily!




As answered before, he didn't remember revealing the information.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 19, 2005)

Posted before reading anything else in this thread:

Harry & Ginny - expected it.
Ron & Hermione - the same
Snape as the Half-blood Prince - should have seen it, didn't.
Dumbledore - oh hell, no - didn't think that would happen!

"I am pretty enough for ze both of us..."  Bwahahahahaha!

Lastly - I think Harry is the last Horcrux.


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2005)

Wombat said:
			
		

> 3)  Grawp is now civilized enough to be at the funeral ... why?  What has happened to change him?  This, again, felt like an abrupt change and a tack-on.



Abrupt change?  It was a *year* since his last screen appearance, and it's not like Hagrid didn't say that he was making progress in the meantime.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 19, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> Snape's behaviour was pretty strange in Spinner's End when he made the vow, he seemed to really care about Narcissa and Malfoy. He didn't act like a bad guy. I think he treats Draco like a kind of son, but it is not everything....
> 
> I think the reason that Dumbledore trusted Snape so much wasn't fully revealed.




I think I know why Dumbledore KNEW he could trust Snape.

And I know why Dumbledore pleaded with Snape at the end.

Snape told him exactly what the Unbreakable Vow pertained to.  Dumbledore wanted Malfoy to have a chance at redemption.  The only way for that to happen was for Snape to kill Dumbledore.  They both knew it would happen, and it was better for Snape to do it than anyone else.


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## Hijinks (Jul 19, 2005)

> I think he treats Draco like a kind of son




Perhaps Draco IS his son?  Hmmm?  Narcissa was naughty and wanted to marry into a full-blooded family, she denied her half-blood lover?  That would explain a lot of his bitterness.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Jul 19, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Perhaps Draco IS his son?  Hmmm?  Narcissa was naughty and wanted to marry into a full-blooded family, she denied her half-blood lover?  That would explain a lot of his bitterness.



 That's a nice theory, but it seems a bit tawdry for a (supposed) kid's book.

Just finished.  WOW.  I want Book 7, like, tomorrow.


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## GSHamster (Jul 19, 2005)

My thought is that Dumbledore absolutely trusts Snape because Snape heard the prophecy. The _entire_ prophecy.  And Snape only tells Voldemort the first two lines, thus causing the entire chain of events, and creating a force able to stop Voldemort. In fact, maybe Snape and Dumbledore conspire to get this result when the prophecy is first given.

After all, the novel keeps mentioning that Snape is really strong at shielding his mind, maybe even strong enough to block or fool Voldemort.

Secondly, Snape goes to a great deal of trouble to keep Harry alive at the end, and he really doesn't need to.  After all, if he only heard the first two lines, he knows that the single greatest thing he could do for Voldemort is to kill Harry.  His actions really only make sense if he knows the rest of the prophecy, and knows that he should not (or cannot) kill Harry.

In fact, you could read Dumbledore's pleading as pleading for Snape to make sure Harry survives.  Dumbledore does not plead with any of the other Death Eaters, though any one of them could kill him.  And Snape, perhaps because of the Unbreakable Vow, sees sacrificing Dumbledore as the only option.

That's my theory anyways.  Mostly because Snape has always been my favourite character.


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## Lord Rasputin (Jul 19, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Almost certainly.  I believe that's the only character we've ever heard of who might have those initials.
> 
> From my ex-GF (who's scarily into HP):  Also, note that Regulus is believed to be dead, but, in either 4 or 5, Luna mentions a singer named Tuby Slugman or something who looks an awful lot like Sirius Black.  This, perhaps, could be Regulus hiding under an assumed identity.




I'm pretty sure it came from the Quibbler, but basically, yeah. One thing about the Quibbler, is it sometimes really is right. I'm convinced it's right about the new Minister of Magic being a vampire. There's something too cool about the idea.

I'll disagree with everyone about the book quality vis-a-vis _Order of the Phoenix_, but that's because I loved Phoenix. Harry was whiny and annoying in it -- he was fifteen. He reminded me of when I was fifteen, and of anyone I knew at the time. Rowling is good with teenagers -- real teenagers are usually deserving of a sock in the mouth.



			
				Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Snape told him exactly what the Unbreakable Vow pertained to. Dumbledore wanted Malfoy to have a chance at redemption. The only way for that to happen was for Snape to kill Dumbledore. They both knew it would happen, and it was better for Snape to do it than anyone else.




My thoughts exactly. That's why Dumbledore was so scared when Snape showed up -- THEN he knew it really was curtains for him. Until then, he had the situation under control -- he was in no danger from anyone there. If an eleven-year-old Tom Riddle could hang a rabbit without neither a wand nor training, Dumbledore could have Avada Kedavra'd Malfoy without uttering a word, even without his wand. (Though I don't think Snape knows the whole prophecy. That would be on a need-to-know basis, and he didn't need to know.)

Snape working for Voldemort outright is just too ... simple. But, he has to love the perks -- he gets to have one of his old enemies as a slave.


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## Uzumaki (Jul 19, 2005)

Wombat said:
			
		

> 2)  Tonks & Lupin.  This felt just incredibly forced.  Last time we saw Tonks (about 2 months before) she is bright, bouncy, happy and has never shown any inclination at all towards Lupin.  Now she is morose, moody, not eating right, and generally a little black rain cloud.  Somehow this simply doesn't jibe.




Everything about Tonks leaves me going "Meh." She seems like the character whose purpose is for everyone to like her. I'm also kinda miffed that Lupin didn't come out of the closet like I expected he would.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 19, 2005)

A couple points:

1.  If Regulus Black were alive, then he would be the rightful inheritor of 12 Grimmault Place.  As Dumbledore's test seems to have proven Harry the rightful inheritor, it would seem that Regulus is dead as a doornail.  I suppose that Kreacher could have been acting and we may learn later that Regulus told him to play along, or something of the sort, but it seems unlikely to me.

2.  The Tonks subplot completely threw me for a loop.  I seem to remember Lupin or somebody mentioning that she was feeling bad because she felt it had been her fault that Sirius had died.  I expected Harry to absolve her of blame at some point, and at the same time come to terms with Sirius' death himself.  Having Tonks' attitude turn out to be lovesickness was...jarring.

3.  Snape.  Ah, Snape.  The memories we received in the previous book that showed us the conflict between James and Snape really illuminated a lot about him.  In this book, Snape's rage when Harry calls him a coward seemed significant as well.  I think that in the end, their relationship will come to _Snape_ forgiving _Harry_ for being James' son, after Harry shows him once and for all that he isn't _James_.

4.  Dumbledore had to die, so I was expecting it.  It's the same reason that we don't ever see Batman in the _Teen Titans_ cartoon.  Harry needs to stand on his own against Voldemort, without the option of leaning on "the only man Voldemort fears."  I do expect we haven't seen the last of Fawkes, though.  Dumbledore has already told us that Fawkes came to Harry in _The Chamber of Secrets_ because Harry displayed loyalty to Dumbledore.  In this novel, we saw that loyalty even more strongly.


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## kingpaul (Jul 19, 2005)

Alright, I finished the book yesterday, and just finished this thread. My question that hasn't been answered yet is that of the DADA teacher. Dubmledore states that because he denied Riddle the post, they haven't had a DADA teacher last more than a year. However, I got the distinct feeling from Sorcerer's Stone that Quirrel had been the teacher for more than a year. Thoughts?


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## orbitalfreak (Jul 19, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> "I am pretty enough for ze both of us..."




Actually, this line made me tear up more than any other in the book, even those dealing with Dumbledore's death.  Mostly because it was jarring, in the sense that no other character (that I know of) had something like this happen.  Dumby's hand got hurt, but dealt with it and ignored it.  Moody was scarred, but came into the story that way.  Bill was a likeable side-character who was viciously mauled.

I'm used to seeing death in most novels, so it doesn't impact me as much.  I also think that the humor of the Bill/Fleur relationship setup intensified it, as did the impact of having Mr. and Mrs. Weasely there to see him.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 19, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> A couple points:
> 
> 1.  If Regulus Black were alive, then he would be the rightful inheritor of 12 Grimmault Place.  As Dumbledore's test seems to have proven Harry the rightful inheritor, it would seem that Regulus is dead as a doornail.  I suppose that Kreacher could have been acting and we may learn later that Regulus told him to play along, or something of the sort, but it seems unlikely to me.




Of course, I didn't think the "test" was as iron-clad as Dumbledore thought.    And even if someone owns Kreacher, the little bugger can still be quite deadly (as Sirius found out).





			
				kingpaul said:
			
		

> Alright, I finished the book yesterday, and just finished this thread. My question that hasn't been answered yet is that of the DADA teacher. Dubmledore states that because he denied Riddle the post, they haven't had a DADA teacher last more than a year. However, I got the distinct feeling from Sorcerer's Stone that Quirrel had been the teacher for more than a year. Thoughts?




I thought he was introduced as a new DADA teacher in book 1, but I could be remembering incorrectly.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 19, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> 4.  Dumbledore had to die, so I was expecting it.  It's the same reason that we don't ever see Batman in the _Teen Titans_ cartoon.  Harry needs to stand on his own against Voldemort, without the option of leaning on "the only man Voldemort fears."  I do expect we haven't seen the last of Fawkes, though.  Dumbledore has already told us that Fawkes came to Harry in _The Chamber of Secrets_ because Harry displayed loyalty to Dumbledore.  In this novel, we saw that loyalty even more strongly.





I half-expected Dumbledore to pull a phoenix, and rise again.  But he didn't.


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## Hijinks (Jul 19, 2005)

> I thought he was introduced as a new DADA teacher in book 1, but I could be remembering incorrectly.



 No, you are correct.  He was introduced as the new teacher of the course in the beginning of Book 1.


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## KidCthulhu (Jul 19, 2005)

Actually, it's implied, but not stated that Quirrel has been the DADA teacher before and is returning.  This is one of the things that bugged me about the book.  I loved large parts of it, and thought it was better than Phoenix on the whole.  But it read like a first draft.  There are typos, for cripessakes. And bad sentence structure.  And factual inconsistencies/errors (like the DADA teacher thing) that could have been resolved by even the most basic editing.

I know Rowling makes a bazillion dollars for her publisher, but would SOMEONE edit her stuff?!

BTW, I love the idea Harry is the last hor-whassname.  And Dumbledore has always said V transfered some of himself to Harry that fateful night.

Dumbledore's death? Tragic, but really, the writing's been on the wall since book 1.  Everytime someone says "As long as we have Dumbledore, we'll be fine" they hammered another nail in his coffin.


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## drothgery (Jul 19, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> 3.  Snape.  Ah, Snape.  The memories we received in the previous book that showed us the conflict between James and Snape really illuminated a lot about him.  In this book, Snape's rage when Harry calls him a coward seemed significant as well.  I think that in the end, their relationship will come to _Snape_ forgiving _Harry_ for being James' son, after Harry shows him once and for all that he isn't _James_.




It's always kind of bothered me that JKR has told us a lot more about James Potter than Lily Evans.


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## Greatwyrm (Jul 19, 2005)

I like the idea of Harry being the last horcrux and I think there's reasonable evidence to support it.  At various earlier times, Dumbledore discusses Harry's scar, ability to speak Parseltoung, and see Voledmort's thoughts.  The recurring explanation is that when he attacked Harry's parents, he left a portion of himself in Harry.  Dumbledore also believed the snake Nagini was a horcrux, saying it would be dangerous, but possible, to make a living creature into one.

I think Dumbledore wasn't pleading for his life, but asking Snape to kill him to both protect Snape's undercover position and to give Draco a chance at redemption.  As rotten as Draco is, he was being blackmailed into the whole thing, through threats to his parents.

I like Harry's slow descent into the Dark Side, similar to Luke Skywalker in some of the fiction after RotJ.  Hary is becoming more and more comfortable with using the Dark Arts.  Sure, it's when the chips are down in a big fight, but he repeatedly tries Snape's slashing spell and Crucio against Snape.

I do think Snape was trying to tip off Harry about what he needed to be able to do to defeat Voldemort.  Harry may have a lot of raw power, but you can't inherit experience.  Snape could have dropped Harry at any moment and isn't in the habit of doing anything out of the goodness of his heart.  Instead, he comes right out and tells Harry what he needs to learn.

I think I actually could buy Snape's remorse.  Maybe he always had a thing for Lily?  In Snape's memory, she was the one who told off James for dangling Snape upside down.  They could have both had a gift for potions.  For all his hatred for James and his crew, we really never hear Snape trash Lily or really even talk about her at all.  The knowledge that what he told Voldemort led to Lily's death could have been too much for Snape.

Idle speculation for book 7:

--Harry sets off on a vigilante quest.  The Ministry, who he's already told off, think he's trying to help Voledmort and come after him, probably led by Percy Weasly.

--Absolutely everything hits the fan at the Dursley residence after Harry turns 17.  One or more Dursleys held hostage or killed.

--Neville, despite himself, grows into being a real bad motha (shut yo' mouth) (just, talkin' 'bout Neville).

--Grawp will meet a very unpleasant end, trying to protect Hagrid from another giant.

--Dumbledore will not be out of the picture, literally.  He'll show up regularly in various portraits, offering his opinions, just as other former headmasters do.

--No matter what evidence of Snape's true nature surfaces, Harry will kill him.


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2005)

Uzumaki said:
			
		

> I'm also kinda miffed that Lupin didn't come out of the closet like I expected he would.



I've seen a fair amount of that online, but I don't know where the expectation came from.  I haven't seen even a tiny hint of it to blow up into a full-blown prediction, but all over the place I'm hearing people complain that a Lupin/Sirius Black gay relationship didn't materialize.  I mean, what are the foundations for this speculation?


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2005)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> I like the idea of Harry being the last horcrux and I think there's reasonable evidence to support it.  At various earlier times, Dumbledore discusses Harry's scar, ability to speak Parseltoung, and see Voledmort's thoughts.  The recurring explanation is that when he attacked Harry's parents, he left a portion of himself in Harry.  Dumbledore also believed the snake Nagini was a horcrux, saying it would be dangerous, but possible, to make a living creature into one.



I don't think it makes any sense, though.  Voldemort was clearly going to the Potter residence to _kill_ Harry.  Unless you want to posit some kind of accidental horcrux creation (and I've seen folks posit just that, but frankly I think it's unlikely to the point of being absurd) I don't see how it came about.

A key piece of evidence--which we're still missing, by the way--is the momentary flash of triumph on Dumbledore's face when Harry describes Voldemort getting out from under the protection that Harry obviously had against him.  That would surely help clear up exactly what the nature of the obvious bond of some kind between the two of them is.


> --Neville, despite himself, grows into being a real bad motha (shut yo' mouth) (just, talkin' 'bout Neville).



  Nice one.


> --No matter what evidence of Snape's true nature surfaces, Harry will kill him.



I have a funny feeling that Harry isn't going to kill _anyone_.  He'll defeat Voldemort, but the Big V will die because of his own pride and/or foolishness, I think. Themes like forgiveness, mercy, compassion, etc. are central to the entire series.  As are themes like corruption, guilt and whatnot from acts of violence.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 19, 2005)

KidCthulhu said:
			
		

> Actually, it's implied, but not stated that Quirrel has been the DADA teacher before and is returning.




I stopped by a bookstore on lunch to see if I could figure out just what was said.  Hagrid says that Quirrel took a year off to get experience and then came back.  Quirrel introduces himself as the DADA teacher, but doesn't say "new" or anything.  He isn't introduced by Dumbledore at the first dinner, which is a break from the other books.  I couldn't find the first reference to DADA teachers lasting only one year - it probably happens later in the book.  

So all we know for sure, unless someone can find a better reference, is that Quirrel was at Hogwarts, left for a year, then came back as the DADA teacher.  What he taught before is up in the air, though its plausible he took the year off to get experience in hopes of becoming good enough to become DADA teacher, or getting Voldemort stuck on his head helped him with getting the post.


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## Uzumaki (Jul 19, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I've seen a fair amount of that online, but I don't know where the expectation came from.  I haven't seen even a tiny hint of it to blow up into a full-blown prediction, but all over the place I'm hearing people complain that a Lupin/Sirius Black gay relationship didn't materialize.  I mean, what are the foundations for this speculation?




I'm not active in the HP online community, but, I dunno, it just struck me that they'd be involved. Maybe it's the combination of history they share; both being "closeted" about other things, Lupin's a werewolf, and Sirius on the run; and both being dog-type Animagi. Just what I thought, but I guess I was wrong. Oh well.


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## stevelabny (Jul 19, 2005)

I'm coming down on the Snape-still-ain't-evil side. 

Dumbledore's pleas reeked of begging Snape to continue playing the villian.
Hopefully he can do something to prove his worth in book 7 to help make up for how lame he looked in the OotP flashbacks. The fact that we still have no idea why Dumbus trusted Snape means it will have to be discussed in book 7, and is therefore important. If it has anthing to do with an unrequited love for Lily, it is incredibly silly that we STILL know nothing about her. 

Book 7 better be LOOOONG. There's way too much stuff to do. 

Now there's THREE people on the evil side that will either take a bullet for the good guys or cross over. Draco has proven to NOT be evil, just a jerk and possibly a coward.  Snape is definitely up to something. And Wormtail still owes Harry and Ron, and if he doesn't take a bullet for Ron in book 7, I will be extremely ticked off.

I would LOVE to see one of the good guys join Voldemort to balance the scale, but absolutely none of them have been pointed in that direction.  

The tedious flashbacks were sure a long, complicated way to say "Voldermort has split his sould into 7 pieces, in order to defeat him, we must first destroy the other six pieces." Would have been better served to trim these down in favor of something else. 

Ron and Hermione were all but absent from OotP and here their relationship seems to take a giant step backwards.  Or at least we ignore the subtle progress the two of them have made in favor of making everything brutally obvious so the nimrods who kept thinking Hermione would wind up with Harry could buy a clue.
Seeing Hermione playing stupid make-Ron-jealous games was just bizarre.  I know she is prone to crying fits when upset, but she has never shown signs of being this ridiculous. 
As much as I missed them in the last book, they were really irritating in this book. Not sure why they've become lame secondary characters instead of relevant important pieces of the story.
Harry and Ginny got their big kiss, while Ron and Hermione looked like idiots. Whatever.

And don't even get me started on the continued lack of importance given to Neville and Trevor. 

But hey, let's shoe-horn in a relationship between Tonks and Lupin. That won't be too out-of-place and forced. 

There was less comedy in this book than the others,  the pacing continues to be wonky, and the best line went to Fleur? (what the? you KNOW you did something wrong when the best line goes to a 5th-string character) 

RAB is most probably Regulus, as it gives us a clue to check the house, to check Mundungus, etc etc. 

The last two Horcruxes? I've always said I thought there was more of a connection between Voldemort and Harry, but I don't think this one makes sense with Death Eaters trying to kill Harry.


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> There was less comedy in this book than the others,  the pacing continues to be wonky, and the best line went to Fleur? (what the? you KNOW you did something wrong when the best line goes to a 5th-string character)



What good line did Fleur have?  I personally liked Harry's response to Snape, when Snape was trying to remind him how to address a professor.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 19, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> I don't think it makes any sense, though.  Voldemort was clearly going to the Potter residence to _kill_ Harry.  Unless you want to posit some kind of accidental horcrux creation (and I've seen folks posit just that, but frankly I think it's unlikely to the point of being absurd) I don't see how it came about.




I think, given the information we have now, that you're right.  However, I could see a circumstance arising from a combination of factors that could lead to it occuring in a manner that Voldemort did not anticipate.


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## stevelabny (Jul 19, 2005)

"I am good-looking enough for the both of us I theenk! All these scars show is zat my husband is brave!" 

This is a stand up and cheer kinda line.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 19, 2005)

I thought there were a lot of good lines.  Harry's reiteration of being a Dumbledore man, through and through, at the funeral, was another stand up and cheer kind of moment.

Overall, I liked this better than OoTP.  I thought that Harry (in particular) was beginning to understand things far better than in the past.  He was making connections, asking better questions.  He was clearly showing that he had leadership skills beyond merely being "the boy who lived."  He was showing he was more than the result of a freak occurence.


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## billd91 (Jul 19, 2005)

I just finished Half-Blood Prince and then read this thread. 
I think people may be onto something about Snape still working against Voldemort. But I don't think it's too certain. Snape stops a death eater from hurting Harry further by saying that it's Voldemort's orders. Even a Voldemort loyalist might accept that, given the brutality of the certain punishment. So you kill Harry Potter? You WILL live to regret it (for a while).
The best evidence for Snape not being a Voldemort loyalist is his involvement with Draco's task and how much Dumbledore knew about it.

Malfoy being unable to go through with the killing doesn't surprise me. From the movie commentaries about the screenplays, we know that Rowling has revealed future elements of the story to the actors and screenwriters. The cut scenes in Chamber of Secrets show Draco being significantly bullied by his old man. From that point, I started to figure that Draco might be a weak link in the Malfoy chain of evil. Bullied and a bully in turn, but perhaps not as evil as he wants to portray himself. 

I thought the pacing of HBP was very different from others in the series, but found it a welcome change. Even though chaos is in the background, the events  of the main characters' lives are comparatively normal. Harry's teen angst and anger is replaced by a generally wiser and less head-strong temperament because he learns the lessons of adolescence in a very hard way. His teenage certainty and outrage is shattered when the cost of his mistake is the death of Sirius. Notice that he doesn't easily make the exact same mistakes, though he remains headstrong and stubborn to some degree.

I do not think that Harry is the 7th horcrux. Dumbledore dismisses it and besides, how would he have done it with the spell rebounding on him like that? That would get Nagini off the hook with respect to being horcrux and I don't think that's what's going on.


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## Numion (Jul 19, 2005)

About Harry being the *6th* Horcrux (remember, Albus corrects harry that there are only 6 Horcruxes even though the soul is in 7 pieces - one part of the soul is always in the body or as a spirit): that would make sense on Voldies part. Thats a direct way of negating the prophecy. If Harry lives, so does Voldie. Voldie dying so that Harry could live wouldnt be possible. Thats against the prophecy.

This presents a dilemma though - why would Voldie work against the prophecy, if he believes it can be negated, and thus patently not true? Why not just forget about it? 

After reading this thread I think though that Snape is still an undercover for the OotP


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## Desdichado (Jul 19, 2005)

stevelabny said:
			
		

> "I am good-looking enough for the both of us I theenk! All these scars show is zat my husband is brave!"
> 
> This is a stand up and cheer kinda line.



Really?  I didn't think much of it--in fact, I actively disliked that line.  Made me roll my eyes.


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## Wereserpent (Jul 19, 2005)

On a somewhat on topic note, killing in the HP universe tears your soul apart, in the D&D universe it strengthens it.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 19, 2005)

I think its very hard to say that Snape is working for the Order of the Phoenix - I don't think anyone in the Order will accept him - but he is still working against Voldemort.  He'll end up helping Harry in some way.

If Hogwart's does open next year (and the book WILL almost certainly be partially set there, I'd think), who would be the next Headmaster?  I can see a subplot of Harry trying to get into Dumbledore's office to see Dumbldore's portrait, but not being allowed to.

And I think it is more accurately said that _murder_ tears your soul apart, not simply killing.


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## Hijinks (Jul 19, 2005)

> Neville, despite himself, grows into being a real bad motha (shut yo' mouth) (just, talkin' 'bout Neville).




Neville is probably my favorite character in all of the books.

I think that, in part, he reflects what Harry could be - for example, sometimes he says 'Why do these things always happen to _me_?!?" and the others comfort him. Harry, for various reasons, doesn't always have the option of whining, and if he does, he certainly doesn't get comforted. No one has time for Harry to feel sorry for himself.   Also, others stick up for Neville (and, to some degree, he lets them by continuing to be weaker than he could be), whereas Harry doesn't always get people to stand up for him when he's being weak - usually, he's told he HAS to be stronger or people will die.  Neville never hears that.

Neville's also found something he's really good at - Herbology - and he's getting set to be a nice, normal boy with decent wizarding powers, a niche in the wizarding world, and eventually a nice, normal life - nothing like what Harry has or will have. Neville is like the alternate Harry - what Harry's life would have been like if Voldemort had decided that Neville was the threat to him, not Harry.

I want Neville to kick some arse and take down some names.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 19, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I want Neville to kick some arse and take down some names.




Same here.  And it's certainly hinted at in "Order of the Phoenix" that he has the potential to do so.

So, here's to Neville giving a good kick in the junk--or worse!--to Bellatrix Lastrange in book 7!


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## TanisFrey (Jul 19, 2005)

My brother made a good point.  Why did Harry push Ginny away at the end of the book?  Dumbledore said repeatly that Love is the power Harry has that Voldemort can't know.  She is still a target being the sister of Harry's Best friend, why bother pushing her away?

Did anyone else cringe when the red harring of Harry takeing out Luna happened??

As for Snape he was still being a teacher to Harry during the chase.  He still has not made up his mind whom he works for, the Death Eaters or the Order of the Phoenix.  I think that Harry will not go out of his way to kill Snape.  But he would not mind if Snape got in the way.


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## jasper (Jul 19, 2005)

Horcruxes*
the book
the ring
hufflepuff icon
ravenclaw icon
???
harry


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## Demmero (Jul 19, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> My brother made a good point.  Why did Harry push Ginny away at the end of the book?  Dumbledore said repeatly that Love is the power Harry has that Voldemort can't know.  She is still a target being the sister of Harry's Best friend, why bother pushing her away?




Very interesting point.  I wonder if James did something similar to Lily just before they died.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jul 19, 2005)

jasper said:
			
		

> ???




The missing horicrux is....

The ENWorld Message Boards!

See hidden text so as not to spoil people.


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## billd91 (Jul 19, 2005)

jasper said:
			
		

> Horcruxes*
> the book
> the ring
> hufflepuff icon
> ...




I don't think so. I think it's:

diary (book) - destroyed
ring - destroyed
locket - stolen, decoy left
hufflepuff artifact
Nagini
unknown - in book theory is some artifact of Ravenclaw or Gryffindor, but highly unlikely to be Potter (or they wouldn't have tried to kill him in Goblet of Fire)

I think Harry will find some clue to all of this at Godric's Hollow, especially if Voldemort was planning creating that 6th (thanks for the correction above) horcrux with Harry's death. Wouldn't it be interesting if his intended vessel had been left behind and was still there?


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## Hijinks (Jul 19, 2005)

> Why did Harry push Ginny away at the end of the book?



 Why does Peter Parker tell Mary Jane to go away?  Out of a sense of honor.  He doesn't want anything to happen to his girl, plain and simple.  Of course, she's not going to let him push her away, but he probably figured he needed to make the effort anyway.


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## billd91 (Jul 19, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> My brother made a good point.  Why did Harry push Ginny away at the end of the book?  Dumbledore said repeatly that Love is the power Harry has that Voldemort can't know.  She is still a target being the sister of Harry's Best friend, why bother pushing her away?
> 
> Did anyone else cringe when the red harring of Harry takeing out Luna happened??





By pushing her away, she becomes one target among many. By keeping the relationship going, she becomes A#1 Prime Target. Of course you'd figure Malfoy or Snape or someone would just tell them that Harry was seen in her company an awful lot and that would make her #1 target again.

I didn't cringe at all when Harry took Luna to the dinner. I thought it was great. After the previous book, I thought Luna might be the dark horse candidate for Harry's love life. At that point, it looked like Ginny had largely gotten over her crush on Harry. Luna's a fun character.  Probably more suited to Neville though. 
Nice to see Neville mixing it up with death eaters and getting his grandma's respect, though.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 19, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Why does Peter Parker tell Mary Jane to go away?  Out of a sense of honor.  He doesn't want anything to happen to his girl, plain and simple.  Of course, she's not going to let him push her away, but he probably figured he needed to make the effort anyway.



My brother did not like this part of the ending in the Spiderman movie either.  To both of us in made less sense for Harry to do it.  Ginny knows the dangers, while Mary Jane has no clue of the danger.


			
				billd91 said:
			
		

> By pushing her away, she becomes one target among many. By keeping the relationship going, she becomes A#1 Prime Target. Of course you'd figure Malfoy or Snape or someone would just tell them that Harry was seen in her company an awful lot and that would make her #1 target again.



Or He could have listen to Dumbledore about the powerfull magic of love.  It's great relief to Harry share his burdens with a LOVED One.  True Love as apposed to Frindship love.  She is a target either way and he could have relaxed and enjoyed himself at times to reup his courgage.


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## Chimera (Jul 20, 2005)

Yes, Peter Parker pushes away MJ in Spiderman, but at the end of SM2, it's a bit different.

I didn't like when Harry did this to Ginny, but I can sort of see why he might think this way.  At the very least, he's on a path of vengeance right now and doesn't want to be distracted by her.

I'm looking forward to the scene in book 7 between Voldemort and Snape.  Better be good.  Should be interesting where the whole Snape thread goes.  JKR has made it clear that she really likes the Snape character and I wouldn't expect him to die an unrepentant killer.

I'm wondering how much of Book 7 will occur before the Hogwarts school year.  A good chunk of it, I'd have to guess.  We have to have the whole Durstley bit and more before...

I'm almost betting that Harry will be talked into coming back to Hogwarts on the grounds that some parents won't send their children back unless "the chosen one" is there to protect them.  Or something like that.  But regardless, each book is "a year at Hogwarts".  If he doesn't return, then there's no point in going, or not going, seven books.  May as well throw that out the window and say that there will be two or three more books before the whole Harry/Voldemort thing is settled.

Clearly, Professor McGonnigal is the new Headmaster and I wouldn't expect that to change.  The better question is who will be the new DADA teacher, who will take over Transformation and who will be head of Gryffindor house.

Ultimately, I almost expect Harry to be DADA professor and head of Gryffindor, but its probably a bit early to expect that at age 17 when he should still be a student.

And a final thought:  What if the note was a ruse and the locket is the actual horcrux?


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## Lord Rasputin (Jul 20, 2005)

jasper said:
			
		

> Horcruxes*
> the book
> the ring
> hufflepuff icon
> ...




In addition to not liking the idea of Harry the Horcrux emotionally (I want him to survive and become an Auror -- the boy's life has not yet begun, and he deserves a long, quite life after his experiences of youth), there's a problem. I have a hard time believing that Voldemort, who THREE TIMES has had no trouble unleashing Avada Kedavra at Harry, would want to put part of his soul into something/someone and then destroy it/him. Considering the great lengths Voldemort has gone to achieve eternal life, this would be counterproductive.

Also, from what I can gather from reading, you must plan the Horcruces, and there's every reason in the books to believe that Voldemort fully expected to kill Harry.

I do wonder if Voldemort did manage to make a Horcrux out of one of the two known Gryffindor artifacts (the sword and the Sorting Hat ... now THERE would be a fun Horcrux) and figures that it, being hidden in plain sight, would never, ever be suspect.

My vote is for Hagrid to be head of Gryffindor. Slughorn will probably stay on as head of Slytherin. DADA -- why not Bill Weasley? His injury probably keeps him out of the field. Transfiguration -- who knows?

And count me in as one of the Neville Longbottom fans who wanted to see more of him in this book.


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## Chimera (Jul 20, 2005)

Lord Rasputin said:
			
		

> And count me in as one of the Neville Longbottom fans who wanted to see more of him in this book.




Forgot to say as much.  I really like Neville, like what she's done with him, want to see more.  I sincerely hope that he gets some good bits in book 7 and comes out a major hero.

Luna would be a good choice for him, they both deserve someone.  Luna *is* insane, but in a good way.  She'd probably drive Neville's gran nuts.   

The only problem that I had with the relationship things in book 6 was that they all started to seem like a really really insular clique.  And I hate that.


----------



## Demmero (Jul 20, 2005)

Chimera said:
			
		

> The only problem that I had with the relationship things in book 6 was that they all started to seem like a really really insular clique.  And I hate that.




Heh.  Kinda like James, Sirius, Remus, Wormtail, and (maybe) Lily?


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 20, 2005)

Chimera said:
			
		

> The only problem that I had with the relationship things in book 6 was that they all started to seem like a really really insular clique.  And I hate that.



Yeah; cliquish teenagers; that's _so_ unrealistic!  And it would have been a _great_ idea for Rowling to juggle hundreds of minor characters just to show how Harry and Co. are such social butterflies! (something that I think it demonstrated quite clearly, actually)


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## billd91 (Jul 20, 2005)

TanisFrey said:
			
		

> Or He could have listen to Dumbledore about the powerfull magic of love.  It's great relief to Harry share his burdens with a LOVED One.  True Love as apposed to Frindship love.  She is a target either way and he could have relaxed and enjoyed himself at times to reup his courgage.




But we already know he's got plenty of love going for him already. He doesn't need a specific romantic love to achieve what he has done so far. And he'll have Ron and  Hermione with him already. They're of age and can make their own choices about going with him. Ginny can't without there being a lot of trouble.
We'll see how this all turns out. Ginny is like Fred and George. She'll understand what he means but probably completely subvert him anyway.


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## theRogueRooster (Jul 20, 2005)

Lord Rasputin said:
			
		

> I want him to survive and become an Auror -- the boy's life has not yet begun, and he deserves a long, quite life after his experiences of youth...




Just to throw my two cents in, I don't think Harry will become an Auror.  Once all the dust settles, I think he'll become a teacher: the Defense Against the Dark Arts instructor to be exact.

-tRR


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## BrooklynKnight (Jul 20, 2005)

my two cents.

I think Draco is evil. Evil to the core. He's just a little coward who cant follow through.

We'll definatly see some Dumbledore in book 7. Either as a ghost, or as a portrait.

I dunno how or what Harry will end up as, but honestly, I can see him just taking some time off after Voldemorts defeat, or becoming an Auror and cleaning up the rest of the deatheaters before coming back to Hogwarts as a teacher, and eventually head of Gryffindor. I can see Hermione also coming back to teach.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 20, 2005)

theRogueRooster said:
			
		

> Just to throw my two cents in, I don't think Harry will become an Auror.  Once all the dust settles, I think he'll become a teacher: the Defense Against the Dark Arts instructor to be exact.




It occured to me last night that it may happen even before the dust settles.  Harry says he's no coming back to Hogwart's, but what if he's asked to become the next DADA teacher?  Especially if the alternative is another Ministry hack?


----------



## thalmin (Jul 20, 2005)

Since I loaned my book to one of my players, I can't check this myself. Exactly what is the wording of Snape's Unbreakable Vow? And what was the spell Snape used to kill D?
I don't think Dumbledore is dead. Did Snape blast him before anyone else could actually kill the weakened wizard? By pretending to kill Dumbledore, Snape can protect Draco (save his soul and save from Voldemort.)


----------



## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 20, 2005)

Snape used the Avada Kadavra spell, one of the Unforgiveable Curses.  And the Vow had a certain amount of plot wiggle room - it was never exactly said what Draco's task was, but it was fairly clearly stated that Snape would do whatever it was if Draco couldn't.

I think there's room for wiggling out of it. Dumbldore shows up in the portraits in the Headmaster's office, which only happens to dead Headmasters.  I also think he'll stay dead, since as otehr have noted, this forces Harry to stand on his own.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 20, 2005)

Chimera said:
			
		

> Yes, Peter Parker pushes away MJ in Spiderman, but at the end of SM2, it's a bit different.



By the End of SM2 MJ know of the problems and perils of the relation.  And Peter is releived by confideing in someone about his hidden life.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 20, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Snape used the Avada Kadavra spell, one of the Unforgiveable Curses.  And the Vow had a certain amount of plot wiggle room - it was never exactly said what Draco's task was, but it was fairly clearly stated that Snape would do whatever it was if Draco couldn't.
> 
> I think there's room for wiggling out of it. Dumbldore shows up in the portraits in the Headmaster's office, which only happens to dead Headmasters.  I also think he'll stay dead, since as otehr have noted, this forces Harry to stand on his own.



It was the logical time to kill off Dumbldore.  This way Harry can shine in the last book.


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## Michael Tree (Jul 20, 2005)

Lord Rasputin said:
			
		

> Also, from what I can gather from reading, you must plan the Horcruces, and there's every reason in the books to believe that Voldemort fully expected to kill Harry.



Yes, and it's likely that Voldemort expected to use the murder of Harry to create his last Horicrux, and so had Horicrux preparations in place.  When his spell rebounded, the horicrux preparations may have backfired, making Harry into a horicrux.

Does anyone have the full text of the prophecy handy?  I wonder if Harry being a horicrux jives with it.

I definitely think R.A.B. is Regulus Black.  As for the other Horicruxes, Mundungus Fletcher stole a lot of items from the Black house, including one silver chalice.  The Hufflepuff artifact?  A friend of mine also remembers that in the descriptions of his house in OotPhoenix there was a large locket that Harry & friends couldn't open.


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## Digital M@ (Jul 20, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I think I know why Dumbledore KNEW he could trust Snape.
> 
> And I know why Dumbledore pleaded with Snape at the end.
> 
> Snape told him exactly what the Unbreakable Vow pertained to.  Dumbledore wanted Malfoy to have a chance at redemption.  The only way for that to happen was for Snape to kill Dumbledore.  They both knew it would happen, and it was better for Snape to do it than anyone else.




Very nice, that makes sense, but only time will tell.


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## Tiberius (Jul 20, 2005)

Michael Tree said:
			
		

> Does anyone have the full text of the prophecy handy?  I wonder if Harry being a horicrux jives with it.




"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...And either must die at the hands of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."


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## Hijinks (Jul 20, 2005)

I think JKR has been building towards Harry being the DADA teacher the whole time.  For one thing, the DADA profs never hang around; for another, he taught his fellow students very well during the DA meetings.

If Hermoine teaches anything, it'll be Runes; she's always talking about Runes this and Runes that.  Pff.  I'd like to see her USE Runes for something!  They never use it practically to solve any real-life problems.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 20, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I think JKR has been building towards Harry being the DADA teacher the whole time.  For one thing, the DADA profs never hang around; for another, he taught his fellow students very well during the DA meetings.
> 
> If Hermoine teaches anything, it'll be Runes; she's always talking about Runes this and Runes that.  Pff.  I'd like to see her USE Runes for something!  They never use it practically to solve any real-life problems.




Agreed on Harry.

And look for JKR to make a major plot point in book 7 center on Hermione's use of Runes.


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## Chimera (Jul 20, 2005)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Yeah; cliquish teenagers; that's _so_ unrealistic!  And it would have been a _great_ idea for Rowling to juggle hundreds of minor characters just to show how Harry and Co. are such social butterflies! (something that I think it demonstrated quite clearly, actually)




Sure, get pissy and extremist on me.  

Just an observation that the group contracted and got very insular.  There were more characters involved in the other stories and those characters didn't only get shoved aside, but it was made clear in the story that the relationships had suffered and/or died.


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## Greatwyrm (Jul 20, 2005)

Tiberius said:
			
		

> "...And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..."




This part shoots Malfoy defeating Voldemort.  We've seen no indication Voledmort considers anyone on his side an equal.  Quite to the contrary, their often shown to be little more than tools.


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## John Q. Mayhem (Jul 21, 2005)

Snape's fervent declaration that he is NOT a coward makes me think that he's playing a very, very dangerous game with Voldemort, to the ultimate good of all.


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## Demmero (Jul 21, 2005)

Greatwyrm said:
			
		

> This part shoots Malfoy defeating Voldemort.  We've seen no indication Voledmort considers anyone on his side an equal.  Quite to the contrary, their often shown to be little more than tools.




Probably...unless perhaps Malfoy's been made a living Horcrux.  Harry seemed certain that Malfoy now has the Death Eater mark on his arm, but maybe (yeah, it's a long shot) Voldemorte 'marked' him in another, more powerful way.

The other stretches I can think of are:

1) If (as someone theorized) the Sorting Hat is one of Voldy's horcruxes, then he would have in a way marked Malfoy as an equal by putting him in Slytherin House.

2) If Voldy made Draco a Death Eater, perhaps that marks him as a sort of equal--as Draco passes from a child to an adult or from a student to a full-fledged wizard.

"Marking someone as your equal" is pretty vague; maybe JKR's throwing everyone a curve.


----------



## Alzrius (Jul 21, 2005)

My thoughts on the book:

I liked how the books have themselves been getting more adult as the characters age. The tone matures just a little bit in each one. This one, for example, had an instance of one character calling another a slut (Voldemort's uncle, referring to Voldermort's mother - his own sister); had a werewolf that liked to eat people when untransformed; had an instance of Hermione being what appeared to be sexually harrassed/assaulted (by that Corman guy at Slughorn's party - Harry sees her appearance is disheveled and she says she just escaped him), etc. This, I think, is an improvement, since it keeps the books from being too "kiddy" for their audience.

I like the theory that R.A.B. is Regulus Black, though to my knowledge we've never known his middle name. However, that doesn't seem to jive with how Sirius described him. He said he was stupid, and apparently squeamish enough to try and flee the Death Eaters...and was promptly killed. Someone that dumb doesn't strike me as being canny enough to find the location of a Horcrux, penetrate its defenses, and then steal it.

I enjoyed seeing Harry and Ginny get together, since that one seemed to come out of left field. He had never been very interested in her, and she had gotten over him several books back. Now he suddenly wants her badly, and when he makes a move, she's all to happy to respond in kind. For some reason, that just really made me smile. However, I do agree that the their break up seemed to come right out of the end of the Spider-Man movie.

I'm wondering at the format of book 7...locating the lair, getting through the defenses, and destroying a Horcrux seems fairly major...doing it for four seems like it'd require a fairly massive book, plus the final battle, epilogue, etc.

For what it's worth, I think we'll be seeing the last book in July 2007. Book 5 came out, IIRC, July of 2003, so that'd make sense.

I think Snape is evil. He may not be Evil with a capital E, but he's still self-serving and petty, which can be (and in his case is) evil. I don't think he's a triple-agent, or still undercover for the Order. Harry said that Snape had made an Unbreakable Vow, which we know he had, but Dumbledore dismissed it...while Dumbledore may have been lying to Harry, I don't think so, and so I think that proves that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape.

I'm probably going to be wrong about the above paragraph. However, I do hope that Rowling is good enough to stick to her guns, and not have Dumbledore revealing that his death was faked somehow.


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## Falkus (Jul 21, 2005)

> However, I do hope that Rowling is good enough to stick to her guns, and not have Dumbledore revealing that his death was faked somehow.




Ditto. I doubt Dumbledore's going to be pulling a Gandalf.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 21, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I think Snape is evil. He may not be Evil with a capital E, but he's still self-serving and petty, which can be (and in his case is) evil. I don't think he's a triple-agent, or still undercover for the Order. Harry said that Snape had made an Unbreakable Vow, which we know he had, but Dumbledore dismissed it...while Dumbledore may have been lying to Harry, I don't think so, and so I think that proves that Dumbledore was wrong about Snape.



And Dumbledore did say that because he is more clever than most people, his mistakes are silmerly that much bigger.


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## GSHamster (Jul 21, 2005)

Chimera said:
			
		

> Just an observation that the group contracted and got very insular.  There were more characters involved in the other stories and those characters didn't only get shoved aside, but it was made clear in the story that the relationships had suffered and/or died.




I think this is pretty much only in Book 5, with the Defense Association (or whatever it was called).  I think this book was a return to the normal focus from books 1-4.


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## F5 (Jul 21, 2005)

Falkus said:
			
		

> Ditto. I doubt Dumbledore's going to be pulling a Gandalf.




I dunno...Dumbledore is too closely associated with the Phoenix not to have some kind of resurrection theme going on.  The giant phoenix statue that hides the stariway to his study, Fawkes, the OotP...

Maybe Reincarnation is the better option, rather than Resurrection.  The only one who Voldemort has "marked as an equal" is Dumbledore (the only man V fears).  Say he should find himself reborn as the seventh month dies...BAM!  Prophecy.


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## MaxKaladin (Jul 21, 2005)

> I dunno...Dumbledore is too closely associated with the Phoenix not to have some kind of resurrection theme going on. The giant phoenix statue that hides the stariway to his study, Fawkes, the OotP...
> 
> Maybe Reincarnation is the better option, rather than Resurrection. The only one who Voldemort has "marked as an equal" is Dumbledore (the only man V fears). Say he should find himself reborn as the seventh month dies...BAM! Prophecy.



I'm no expert on the "Potterverse" but perhaps JKR is setting up for another series of books where Dumbledore is reincarnated, grows old enough to go to Hogwarts and kicks off a new series of adventures.


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## billd91 (Jul 21, 2005)

I don't think Dumbledore is coming back. The phoenix has left the building. Besides, isn't it a gargoyle that guards the stairs to the headmaster's office?

It's clearly Harry whom Voldemort has marked as his equal. He sought Harry out to kill him based on what he heard of the prophecy to try to kill him before he could attain a level of power capable of being a threat. Voldemort made the selection of which wizard family baby would be most threatening, and thus marked him as an equal.
By contrast, fearing Dumbledore and trying to find ways to get others to kill him, Voldemort has always marked Dumbledore as his superior.

Edit: I expect he'll be present as a portrait as all headmasters are, but not coming back in the resurrected sense.


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## JimAde (Jul 21, 2005)

Yes, it's a gargoyle that guards the door.  But the phoenix symbolism has been pretty strong.  I'm not betting on it, but a Dumbledore back from the dead wouldn't surprise me all that much.

Certainly everyone in the books believes Harry to be the one "marked as an equal."  Dumbledore has a fairly long discussion about it with Harry in this book, explaining how by marking Harry (and setting him on the path his life has taken) Voldemort _made_ Harry his equal.  Interesting.

Much, much more in-depth discussion can be had on mugglenet:

http://www.mugglenet.com


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## reveal (Jul 21, 2005)

I still say Dumbledore is really Voldemort and he's been messing with Harry this whole time.


----------



## Desdichado (Jul 21, 2005)

Chimera said:
			
		

> Sure, get pissy and extremist on me.



Naw, just sarcastic.


			
				Chimera said:
			
		

> Just an observation that the group contracted and got very insular.  There were more characters involved in the other stories and those characters didn't only get shoved aside, but it was made clear in the story that the relationships had suffered and/or died.



I don't think that's true; I think that the increased pace of this book just gave Rowlings less time to focus on, say, Harry's friendship with Seamus or Neville, or what-have-you.

This book was much more focused than the last two in that regard.


----------



## F5 (Jul 22, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> I don't think Dumbledore is coming back. The phoenix has left the building. Besides, isn't it a gargoyle that guards the stairs to the headmaster's office?




I think maybe my potter-fu is being influenced by the movies...in the movies the secret staricase to Dumby's office is behind a big pheonix-like bird statue.  Still, they've been pushing the phoenix connection pretty hard.  I won't be the least bit surprised when/if he re-appears.

While I think you're right that it's almost got to be Harry who's the Chosen One, (and that's a good point about Big-V marking Dumby his superior, rather than his equal), having it turn out to be Dumbledore is just an interesting twist to throw out there.  While it would be kind of disappointing to have one of the adults swoop in and save he day, when this whole series is really about the kids, it's kind of satisfying to think that Dumbledore might have manipulated events to _make_ himself fulfill the prophecy.  Need to be born in a certain month?  Easy.  Die, pick month in which to be reborn.  

Again, you're all probably right; it is almost 100% likely that Dumbledore isn't the Chosen One.  But I'm holding onto this one as my cool crackpot theory of the hour because it's fun.  So there.


----------



## F5 (Jul 22, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> I'm no expert on the "Potterverse" but perhaps JKR is setting up for another series of books where Dumbledore is reincarnated, grows old enough to go to Hogwarts and kicks off a new series of adventures.




THAT could certainly be interesting...

By then, Harry could be old enough to be Dumbledore's Defense against the Dark Arts teacher!


----------



## TanisFrey (Jul 22, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I think JKR has been building towards Harry being the DADA teacher the whole time.  For one thing, the DADA profs never hang around; for another, he taught his fellow students very well during the DA meetings.
> 
> If Hermoine teaches anything, it'll be Runes; she's always talking about Runes this and Runes that.  Pff.  I'd like to see her USE Runes for something!  They never use it practically to solve any real-life problems.



More likey that Harry will be a special assitant to the DADA teacher and get the DA running once more, sortia of a OotP mark II.  It would also seem that Harry will start to direct the OotP and the Aruthors, ticking off the Minster of Magic, in an attempt to find the horcruxes.  Of course he will get to the Aruthors by using Profeser Slughorn's connections.


----------



## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 22, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> I'm wondering at the format of book 7...locating the lair, getting through the defenses, and destroying a Horcrux seems fairly major...doing it for four seems like it'd require a fairly massive book, plus the final battle, epilogue, etc.



I think all but one will happen "off screen" with some members of the OotP finding them.  Then, the last one is the one Harry will find "on screen" in the book.




			
				Alzrius said:
			
		

> For what it's worth, I think we'll be seeing the last book in July 2007. Book 5 came out, IIRC, July of 2003, so that'd make sense.



But the long delay between book 4 and 5 puts any sort of "schedule" right out the window.  JKR can take as long as she wants, and she knows it, and she said as much during the wait for book 5.  It was three long years between book 4 and book 5....


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## David Howery (Jul 22, 2005)

My own view on Snape: I think he's one of the good guys, and his severe dislike for Harry is a little contrived.  Didn't one of the books say that either James or Dumbledore saved Snape's life?  There's a story there we don't know yet.  I'm thinking Snape has been working as a double agent for Dumbledore all along.  His killing Dumbledore, strange as it sounds, was likely on Dum's orders, something like "If Draco does corner me and can't kill me, you do it"... again, there's something going on here we don't know yet.  I think Snape will play a role in bringing down Voldemort and it will be revealed that Snape doesn't hate Harry as much as it has seemed, although he probably doesn't think he's all that cool either.  After all, Harry isn't James and is a lot more humble.  Still, in OOTP, when Harry snuck a look at Snape's memory in the pensieve, that was probably a genuinely angry moment...


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## sniffles (Jul 22, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> My own view on Snape: I think he's one of the good guys, and his severe dislike for Harry is a little contrived. Didn't one of the books say that either James or Dumbledore saved Snape's life? There's a story there we don't know yet. I'm thinking Snape has been working as a double agent for Dumbledore all along. His killing Dumbledore, strange as it sounds, was likely on Dum's orders, something like "If Draco does corner me and can't kill me, you do it"... again, there's something going on here we don't know yet. I think Snape will play a role in bringing down Voldemort and it will be revealed that Snape doesn't hate Harry as much as it has seemed, although he probably doesn't think he's all that cool either. After all, Harry isn't James and is a lot more humble. Still, in OOTP, when Harry snuck a look at Snape's memory in the pensieve, that was probably a genuinely angry moment...




Interesting to see this theory; this is what my fiance thinks too. I'm a little dubious, although I do still think Snape is acting as a spy for the "good guys". At first I thought perhaps Dumbledore's death was an elaborate hoax, but it seems too elaborate for that. 

I wonder if there might be anyone else who has made an Unbreakable Vow, perhaps with regards to Harry?


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 22, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> My own view on Snape: I think he's one of the good guys, and his severe dislike for Harry is a little contrived.  Didn't one of the books say that either James or Dumbledore saved Snape's life?  There's a story there we don't know yet.  I'm thinking Snape has been working as a double agent for Dumbledore all along.  His killing Dumbledore, strange as it sounds, was likely on Dum's orders, something like "If Draco does corner me and can't kill me, you do it"... again, there's something going on here we don't know yet.  I think Snape will play a role in bringing down Voldemort and it will be revealed that Snape doesn't hate Harry as much as it has seemed, although he probably doesn't think he's all that cool either.  After all, Harry isn't James and is a lot more humble.  Still, in OOTP, when Harry snuck a look at Snape's memory in the pensieve, that was probably a genuinely angry moment...




Yeah, I think James saved his life.  But if you hate someone, someone who bullies you (as James clearly does in OotP), and then they save your life....well, you might just resent them  for doing something that doesn't mesh with your view of them--and hate them even more.

I think Snape really does hate Harry.  He may even resent having to save him constantly, since he hated his father so much.  But, Snape does save Harry several times (even going all the way back to book 1 when he stops Quirrell from killing Harry during the Quidditch match).


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## TanisFrey (Jul 22, 2005)

sniffles said:
			
		

> Interesting to see this theory; this is what my fiance thinks too. I'm a little dubious, although I do still think Snape is acting as a spy for the "good guys". At first I thought perhaps Dumbledore's death was an elaborate hoax, but it seems too elaborate for that.
> 
> I wonder if there might be anyone else who has made an Unbreakable Vow, perhaps with regards to Harry?



I think that it is possable that Dumbledore was offered by Snape an Unbreakable Vow about what he would do in the future.  But would Dumbledore actualy make Snape sware it when offered???  People do lots things that they normaly don't dream of during WAR.


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## WayneLigon (Jul 22, 2005)

My speculations:

I think that the last horcrux is either Harry himself, or Harry's scar - this explains much about Harry's magical ability, his Parseltounge ability, etc.

My bet is that it's Neville that kills Voldemort at last, thus deflecting all the attention away from Harry so he gets to live a 'normal' life afterwards.

Ollivander the wand seller is involved in things somehow as we'll see more of him in the last book. I'm betting on him being a big-time Death Eater after his rambling in the first book.

Harry's involvement with Ginny opens up a very cool idea: Harry is only protected while at the Dursley's because it's his Home. I'm thinking that the Burrow will become his Home as his relationship with Ginny develops. There will be a big tense scene where Voldemort decides to destroy the Burrow since that would kill off Harry's best friend and girlfriend and Hermione (who has totally fallen for Ron at this point) all in one stroke so that Harry suffers before he dies... and can't, since the protection spells have transferred to the Burrow.

Or, Voldemort attacks the Dursley's house while Harry is out ... and it works, wiping out those vermin completely, since Harry no longer considers it his Home. 

Those might not work, though; I think Harry's birthday is during the summer and once he turns 17 the whole protection thing drops anyways.


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## JimAde (Jul 22, 2005)

Number 4 Privet Drive is only safe for Harry because it's a home he shares with Petunia.  It's her blood connection to Harry's mother that makes it all work.  So no transferring to the place Harry considers home, since that's been Hogwarts since the first book. 

I agree that an attack on the Weasleys is in the offing.  All in all I can't think of a family I'd like to tick off less.  The idea of Molly and Arthur Weasly in full parental protection mode gives me the willies.


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## Staffan (Jul 22, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> Didn't one of the books say that either James or Dumbledore saved Snape's life?  There's a story there we don't know yet.



Didn't that have something to do with stopping Lupin from eating Snape?


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## JimAde (Jul 22, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Didn't that have something to do with stopping Lupin from eating Snape?



 Yes, James stopped Snape from going through the secret passage under the whomping willow.  It would have taken him to the Shrieking Shack where Lupin was doing his monthly fur time.  However, it was apparently Sirius' idea of a joke to send Snape through the tunnel in the first place, so I can understand if Snape's gratitude was less than overwhelming.


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## drothgery (Jul 22, 2005)

JimAde said:
			
		

> I agree that an attack on the Weasleys is in the offing.  All in all I can't think of a family I'd like to tick off less.  The idea of Molly and Arthur Weasly in full parental protection mode gives me the willies.




Maybe, but I'd almost feel sorry for the Death Eaters that try to get Fred and George   

(My loony theory was that Percy's estrangement from his family was staged, with only Arthur and Dumbledore knowing the truth, but there should have been some hints of that in HBP if that were true...)


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## Kid Charlemagne (Jul 22, 2005)

WayneLigon said:
			
		

> Harry's involvement with Ginny opens up a very cool idea: Harry is only protected while at the Dursley's because it's his Home. I'm thinking that the Burrow will become his Home as his relationship with Ginny develops.




I don't think that will work - I believe that Harry is only protected at the Dursley's until he turns 17.


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## Lord Pendragon (Jul 23, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> I don't think that will work - I believe that Harry is only protected at the Dursley's until he turns 17.



Not only that, but he's protected by his mother's blood sacrifice.  The only way to duplicate this (if it's even possible for someone other than your mother and for someone who is already 17,) would be for Ginny to _die_ for Harry, which I don't really want to see.

I like Ginny.  I'm hoping that she tells Harry what he can do with his "noble sacrifice" and that she's going to be his girlfriend whether he likes it or not, so he might as well go with it.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 23, 2005)

Lord Pendragon said:
			
		

> Not only that, but he's protected by his mother's blood sacrifice.  The only way to duplicate this (if it's even possible for someone other than your mother and for someone who is already 17,) would be for Ginny to _die_ for Harry, which I don't really want to see.
> 
> I like Ginny.  I'm hoping that she tells Harry what he can do with his "noble sacrifice" and that she's going to be his girlfriend whether he likes it or not, so he might as well go with it.



Most sertently how I see the relation in book 7.


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## minitrue (Jul 23, 2005)

I don't think Harry is on to the Horcrux, too many times the Death Eaters or V have tried to kill him through out the different books.  I also do not think that Harry will ever become and auror.  Harry clearly doesn't trust the Ministry, and as long as the current Minister stays around he won't let Harry become an Auror unless Harry is willing to become the Ministry's poster boy.  If Harry survives I could definetly see him back at Hogwarts as the DADA teacher and eventially Headmaster, in a very Dumbledore type roll, giving the Minister of Magic advise but going on with his own plans regardless if the Minister listens to him or not.  Also I think Harry will relive that as an Auror you only get to impact society on a relatively small scale, where teachering at Hogwarts you will be influencing generations of wizards.


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## Dark Psion (Jul 23, 2005)

I think Harry is the missing Horcrux, it was his murder that was to forge the last one, but Lily's abjuration shattered Voldmort's soul. As to the Death Eaters trying to kill Harry, they probably don't know about the Horcruxs, in fact maybe Voldemnort didn't figure it out till recently.

Remember


> "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...*And the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not*...And either must die at the hands of the other, for neither can live while the other survives...The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..."




As to Dumbledore's death, at first I thought he was faking, I mean with all of his power, but then I remembered his hand.....and with all of his power. 

I think he was already dying.

I think Snape swore an Unbreakable vow to Lily to protect Harry and that is why he helps him and does not kill him. 

As to is he evil, oh yeah ! 
But he is not going to be Voldemort's lacky this time, he is just waiting for his moment to avenge Lily's death and with Voldemort's final death, Snape can stop hiding. Considering his knowledge of Potions, why hasn't he written his own book? Because he could not risk coming out of the shadow of Dumbeldore.

I think Regulus Black is RAB, but if he is alive, it is only because Snape was the one who "killed" him. That would give Snape an extra edge.

As to the next book, I think Harry will try to do it himself and fail miserably, possibly loosing his owl in the process. He will be rescued by Fawkes and brought back to Hogwart's to recover. Then the team will unite for the final battle. Maybe the real Moody will be the DADA teacher next year. If the Order of the Phoenix is based from Hogwarts, that might convince the parents to send the children there, perhaps just for their safety alone.


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## TanisFrey (Jul 25, 2005)

Just had a thought in the middle of the night.  The new DADA teacher for book 7 will be someone that NEEDS an assistant in the form of one Harry Potter.  Because the teacher will be the most unusuall to date.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Dumbledore's Portrait

Of course other Headmaster's Portraits, whom were noted for fighting the Dark Arts, will be hung in the classroom also.  Dumbledore will use Harry to cast the spells being taught.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 25, 2005)

Finished the book yesterday.

* Harry pulling a Peter Parker and telling Ginny to take a hike makes sense.  Ginny isn't neccearily on the DE's list.  Potter spent a few weeks dating Ginny, most of that time was by the lake or whatever.  The big public display was in front of the Griffendor house, not Hogwarts at large.   Malfoy and Snape were busy during this period.  It's possible that the DEs really don't know about Ginny.  Luna, however, was Potter's date to the party.  Oops.  


* As much as it will pain me to see Dumbledore come back in a portrait (Obi-Wan?) I think it is inevitable.

* IIRC, Snape reserved three memories that he absolutely did not want Potter to know about. We saw one, were James was taunting him as a youth.  This leaves two others.  At least one of them has to be who he is really working for.  I suspect the other is a memory swearing his alliegance to whomever he's really double-crossing.  

* Also, you can break an Unbreakable Vow.  You just die in the process.  Snape has proven himself that no matter what you think of him, he's no coward.  He may swear these Unbreakable Vows at the drop of a hat, knowing that sooner or later he's going to have to break one and bite it.

* I think Snape killed Dumbledore as a mercy killing.  The werewolf was about ready to do it anyway, orders or no orders.  By the time Snape walked into the room, Dumbledore's life expectancy could be measured with a stopwatch, it was just a question of how it was going to go down.  Snape now has impeccible DE creditentials and he at least spared Dumbledore getting tortured.

* Why is anyone attracted to Ron?  I mean, really?  It must be a most-popular-guy-in-school thing because nothing else makes sense. Well, other than, Ron's-a-hero-because-we-said-so. 

* I was dissapointed to learn that the Half-Blood Prince was Snape.  Sure, it all makes sense, but I felt like I was reading an Agatha Christie mystery where the vital clue isn't revealed until the end and it's impossible to solve the puzzle otherwise.

* Harry is still kind of a prat, which I liked to see.  Tonks was no longer fun to hang around, so Harry tries to ditch her.  Exactly like most teens would do.

* I'm still a little shocked that Harry, Ron, and Herminone (!!!!) won't be returning to the school.  We already saw a format change with this book, it didn't start on Privit Drive, it started in the Prime Minester's office.  The last book, I'm guessing, will deviate a lot from the tradition.

* Draco's a chump.  At this point, were it up to me, he could not be saved.  It is no longer a question of him wanting to do the right thing, the point is that when the chips are down, he gravitates to whoever is strongest.  I LOVE the notion other posters have mentioned about him being a surragte son for Snape though.

* McGonnel will be the headmaster, I'm betting.  No one else has a strong enough personality.  Snape might have, but I'm guessing he's no longer on the tenure track.

All in all, a good read!


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## Hijinks (Jul 25, 2005)

> Snape reserved three memories that he absolutely did not want Potter to know about. We saw one, were James was taunting him as a youth. This leaves two others. At least one of them has to be who he is really working for. I suspect the other is a memory swearing his alliegance to whomever he's really double-crossing.



 Ah but .. if he were truly working on the good side, why hide it from Harry?  You would think he would want Harry to stop suspecting him and causing trouble for him.  For me, the one reason he has to hide those memories, if those are indeed what he hid from Harry, would be because they involve him really working for the evil side.


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## Staffan (Jul 25, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> Ah but .. if he were truly working on the good side, why hide it from Harry?



Because if there is one thing Harry sucks at, it's occlumency. His mind is like an open book.


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## Tauric (Jul 26, 2005)

Okay, just finished, so I'm late for the party.

I don't think it matters if Snape is evil or not.  Harry is never going to forgive him.  Not after learning it was Snape who told Voldemort of the prophecy, and definately not after the events on the tower.  I don't think Harry will go out of his way to kill Snape, but he will if Snape gets in his way.

I have two ideas about Dumbledor's death.  One, he had Snape kill him because D knew that while he was around, Harry would always rely on him (the Giles reasoning).  Two, D needed Harry to see him die to finally spur Harry into action (the Obi-Wan gambit).

I'm not sure what my point is here, but I wanted to get my analogies out there.


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## David Howery (Jul 26, 2005)

isn't it a given that McGonagal is going to be the new Headmistress?  The end of the book seemed to make it pretty clear... she was second to Dumbledore (deputy or something), and she took over AD's office...

edit: ok, just why is it everytime the word 'book' appears on this thread, it is a highlighted link?


book book book !!


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## Alzrius (Jul 26, 2005)

Just a thought...didn't Harry figure out that the Half-Blood Prince's book was fifty years old? If so, how is it Snape's old book? Snape went to school with Harry's parents, which was a lot less than fifty years ago.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 26, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> Just a thought...didn't Harry figure out that the Half-Blood Prince's book was fifty years old? If so, how is it Snape's old book? Snape went to school with Harry's parents, which was a lot less than fifty years ago.



The age of the book doesn´t show when the comments were written in it.
Thinking about it, I believe it was probably family property and Snape inherited it from his mother (Prince).


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## kingpaul (Jul 26, 2005)

Here's a wild and crazy thought. In Book 7, Harry and Voldemort will die trying to kill each other. However, before Harry continues his after-life journey (IIRC, D has mentioned at least once that death is just a new journey...or something along those lines), Harry will be given the choice of coming back (which he will), or continue on.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 26, 2005)

Tauric said:
			
		

> Okay, just finished, so I'm late for the party.
> 
> I don't think it matters if Snape is evil or not.  Harry is never going to forgive him.  Not after learning it was Snape who told Voldemort of the prophecy, and definately not after the events on the tower.  I don't think Harry will go out of his way to kill Snape, but he will if Snape gets in his way.
> 
> ...




Not late--some of us were just pre-mature!  No, wait, that's not what I meant....uh.....   

I agree that Harry will never forgive Snape.  Too much hatred to "let it go" for our hero.

Dumbledore = Obi-Giles.  I like it.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 26, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> The end of the <a href='http://67.15.154.58/cmapp/zx-hclick.php?hid=1' target='_blank'>book</a>
> 
> 
> edit: ok, just why is it everytime the word 'book' appears on this thread, it is a highlighted link?
> ...




What's the link supposed to go to?  I just get an error message when I click on it:



> Warning: mysql_connect(): Access denied for user: 'admin@localhost' (Using password: YES) in /var/www/html/cmapp/zx-hclick.php on line 10


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## Staffan (Jul 26, 2005)

David Howery said:
			
		

> edit: ok, just why is it everytime the word 'book' appears on this thread, it is a highlighted link?



It doesn't for me, just in your post. You probably have some virus/spyware thing infecting your system. Try downloading AdAware and Spyware Search & Destroy and running them.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 27, 2005)

I just finished it, but then I read the other 5 first, so...

1) I don't like the idea that Harry is the Horcrux, but it'd have to have been an object at the location. He wanted to make one with Potter's death, so he couldn't have had it before. I doubt he made one since returning to his body. Harry plans on returning there, so I assume it'll become obvious at some point.

2) Dumbledore's death: I was almost sure he wasn't dead. He had just finished explaining how they could fake Draco's death, plus the Phoenix symbology. But, with the funeral and all, this would be a huge cop out to do, unless he is significantly altered (like a rebirth).

3) I'm pretty sure Snape's faking it, but I also expect him to Die By Vow.

4) The note's age is unknown, it's entirely possible it's Regulus, but he's dead. He simply died after getting the item. Seems it seems like he wanted to destroy it, I'm not sure it matters.


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## wingsandsword (Jul 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> 2) Dumbledore's death: I was almost sure he wasn't dead. He had just finished explaining how they could fake Draco's death, plus the Phoenix symbology. But, with the funeral and all, this would be a huge cop out to do, unless he is significantly altered (like a rebirth).
> 
> 3) I'm pretty sure Snape's faking it, but I also expect him to Die By Vow.



I also think Dumbledore had something up his sleeve.

Dumbledore's plea to snape could be taken a second way, instead of begging not to be killed, he was begging to be killed.  Snape may be the only person who can bring down the Death Eaters, that is if he doesn't Die By Vow.  I figure that Dumbledore sacrificed himself to allow Snape to continue on his mission for him.  The entire scene before with Malfoy seemed to drive home that he was a flawless judge of character, and it's been harped on so many times that Dumbledore knew that Snape was really on their side and he trusts him implicitly.

Given how each book gets progressively darker, I can't imagine Dumbledore coming back (although the Phoenix imagery for him, and the fact he's a blatant Gandalf figure do hint he could return), but I think it's pretty clear that not all is as it seems with his death.


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## Umbran (Jul 27, 2005)

Dark Psion said:
			
		

> I think Harry is the missing Horcrux, it was his murder that was to forge the last one, but Lily's abjuration shattered Voldmort's soul. As to the Death Eaters trying to kill Harry, they probably don't know about the Horcruxs, in fact maybe Voldemnort didn't figure it out till recently.




There's no indication that you can make a Horcrux unintentionally.


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## JimAde (Jul 27, 2005)

No, but Dumbledore did tell Harry in an earlier book that he thinks Voldemort transferred some of his power to Harry accidentally.  If that can happen, why not making him a horcrux?  Sounds pretty similar actually.

This idea (that part of Voldemort's soul is in Harry) has been kicking around on the mugglenet boards for years.  I'm thinking they were right, but now we have a name for it: Horcrux.


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## Xath (Jul 27, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> Given how each book gets progressively darker, I can't imagine Dumbledore coming back (although the Phoenix imagery for him, and the fact he's a blatant Gandalf figure do hint he could return), but I think it's pretty clear that not all is as it seems with his death.




Here's my question.  Snape killed Dumbledore with the Killing Curse, which has been explained over and over again.  You have to have an extreme hate for the person you're killing, otherwise nothing happens, or you get a worthless jet of green light.  So while I do actually think Dumbledore is dead, here's my alternate and unsupported postulation.

Snape mustered enough energy to get a blast of green light off in the spell, but not to do more than push Dumbledore back a few feet.  Since Draco thought the mission was complete, Snape fulfilled the Unbreakable Vow.  Meanwhile, Dumbledore had time to get to the bottom of the tower, and swap his own body out with that of another.  My guess would be perhaps, his twin brother, Aberforth(?)  Dumbledore.  Or maybe even a polymorphed body or something.  Then, Dumbledore turned himself invisible (which we know he can do without a cloak) and flew up to release the binding spell on Harry.  

It's not likely, but I thought I'd put it out there.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 27, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> There's no indication that you can make a Horcrux unintentionally.




There's no real indication you can't either, given how very little information on Horcrux construction Rowling provided. I'm thinking it won't be long before the next book comes out - this one seemed to be little more than a set-up for Book 7, with a very limited amount of self-contained story.


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## billd91 (Jul 27, 2005)

JimAde said:
			
		

> No, but Dumbledore did tell Harry in an earlier book that he thinks Voldemort transferred some of his power to Harry accidentally.  If that can happen, why not making him a horcrux?  Sounds pretty similar actually.
> 
> This idea (that part of Voldemort's soul is in Harry) has been kicking around on the mugglenet boards for years.  I'm thinking they were right, but now we have a name for it: Horcrux.




But you'd think that anyone creating a horcrux, even accidentally, would be able to sense it as such once it was done. After all, it is part of your own soul. I would certainly expect a wizard as powerful as Voldemort to have a clue, especially once he had temporarily possessed Potter in the Ministry of Magic.
Voldemort has simply tried too many times, either directly or indirectly, to kill Potter to make the "Potter as horcrux" hypothesis believable.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 27, 2005)

wingsandsword said:
			
		

> I also think Dumbledore had something up his sleeve.
> 
> Dumbledore's plea to snape could be taken a second way, instead of begging not to be killed, he was begging to be killed.  Snape may be the only person who can bring down the Death Eaters, that is if he doesn't Die By Vow.  I figure that Dumbledore sacrificed himself to allow Snape to continue on his mission for him.




I'm almost completely sure Dumbledore's Plea was for Snape to kill him. I think Snape will die by Vow, but in a self-sacrificing way. Also, Snape's Vow to finish what Draco was sent to do doesn't really have a time limit written into it, so Snape isn't breaking the Vow if he doesn't kill Dumbledore.

When did the snake become a Horcrux anyway? I assumed it was all before the Dark Lord's "death", but don't recall if it's stated.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 27, 2005)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:
			
		

> The age of the book doesn´t show when the comments were written in it.
> Thinking about it, I believe it was probably family property and Snape inherited it from his mother (Prince).




I kind of figured Snape didn't have the money, and was using a Class Copy of the book. Not sure why he'd have left it there. Not sure why he didn't retrieve it later. Not sure why he didn't give it to Draco...


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I kind of figured Snape didn't have the money, and was using a Class Copy of the book. Not sure why he'd have left it there. Not sure why he didn't retrieve it later.



Another possibility, but I tend to believe it is a family item. 


> Not sure why he didn't give it to Draco...



That´s definitely not his style. Note that he usually gives minus points to his least favourite houses, not bonus points to his own one. If Draco wants to improve his grades, he has to work better, not count on Snapes help (or his charme  )


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## Umbran (Jul 27, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> There's no real indication you can't either, given how very little information on Horcrux construction Rowling provided.




Actually, there is such an indication - the fact that hardly anyone knows what they are, and they aren't mentioned in texts, and there aren't a bunch of wizards running around inexplicably unable to die should be decent signs.  Given the number of magical accidents in the Potterverse, if it could happen accidentally, it *would*.  Every wizard or witch who kills might end up with one.  That'd be a lot of horcruxes (horcruxen?)

And that's all aside from how obvious and cliche a thing it would be. Also sets aside the complication - If Harry is a Horcrux, he himself cannot beat Voldemort, because he'd have to die _before_ Voldemort does.


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## BiggusGeekus (Jul 27, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> And that's all aside from how obvious and cliche a thing it would be. Also sets aside the complication - If Harry is a Horcrux, he himself cannot beat Voldemort, because he'd have to die _before_ Voldemort does.




I don't think that is a likely scenario, mostly because I don't think the publisher will let JKR get away with it.  But technically, it's still a possiblity for Harry to martyr himself.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 27, 2005)

Umbran said:
			
		

> If Harry is a Horcrux, he himself cannot beat Voldemort, because he'd have to die _before_ Voldemort does.




Ahhhh, now wouldn't that be a great twist ending for book 7?!  It will be Neville's moment to shine, after all!!!


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 27, 2005)

BiggusGeekus said:
			
		

> I don't think that is a likely scenario, mostly because I don't think the publisher will let JKR get away with it.  But technically, it's still a possiblity for Harry to martyr himself.



 I think JKR can do anything she wants.  I'm sure if the publisher doesn't like the book she writes, some other company would be more than happy to publish it instead.


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## JimAde (Jul 27, 2005)

If Harry IS a horcurux, it doesn't necessarily follow that any time a wizard tries and fails to kill someone a horcrux would be created.  I'm saying that perhaps Voldemort was _trying_ to create a horcrux when he killed Harry.  That, combined with the way the spell backfired on him, would certainly be a very rare occurrence.  Possibly unique.

And his willingness to kill Harry indicates either that he's willing to lose this horcrux (since he has several others) to clean up his mess, or he for some reason doesn't know what happened.


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## billd91 (Jul 27, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I kind of figured Snape didn't have the money, and was using a Class Copy of the book. Not sure why he'd have left it there. Not sure why he didn't retrieve it later. Not sure why he didn't give it to Draco...




The publication date of the book is pretty much irrelevant with respect to anybody owning it. After all, it's the same text the students are still using 50 years after it was written (presumably as a later printing). So Snape owning it some 20 years ago isn't a big deal and doesn't do anything to indicate it was in the family.

I assume it was Snape's personal copy and that, as potions teacher, he had it in his classroom along with all of his other old texts and then barely gave it another thought. I also assume that he probably just didn't think it significant enough to retrieve it when he moved up to DADA. 

Of course, his considerable proficiency with potions, as evidenced in his marginal notes, sure goes a long way to explain why he was made potions instructor even though his teaching style was pretty bad.

Edit: Another bit on leaving the text book behind. It probably never crossed his mind that Slughorn might hand out his old potions book as a loaner. After all, Snape would probably never have done so himself, certainly not to Potter.


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## Larka (Jul 27, 2005)

First of all, some very interesting theories. I like the idea that Harry is a horcrux, though I'm not entirely convinced, and I was also facinated about the possiblility of Dumbledore being a portrait. This would be extremely usefull, obviously, but might not help the general storyline...we'll see...

Anyway, this whole 'Regulus Black is R.A.B' thing fits quite nicely, and if you read paragraph three on page 108 in Order of the Phoenix, the cleaning crew find 'a heavy locket that none of them could open.' Could this be the horcrux that Harry and Dumbledore tried to get in the cave?

If it was a horcrux, then it will be hard to find, and they threw everything away. However there is a posibility that Kreacher stole it (if you remember he tried to retrieve items which were being thrown away) or possibly Mundungus (who Harry threatened outside the Pub when he found out he had been stealing from Grimmauld Place.

Finally, I refuse to believe that Snape is evil! I just wont believe it, i dont care if he killed the only person Voldemort was ever afraid of, and despises the person responsible for Voldemorts downfall, he is not evil, I'll beet my socks on it. 


Ok, maybe I'm being stubborn and ignorant, but hey, I'm British, what can I say?


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## Chimera (Jul 27, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Edit: Another bit on leaving the text book behind. It probably never crossed his mind that Slughorn might hand out his old potions book as a loaner. After all, Snape would probably never have done so himself, certainly not to Potter.




I dunno.  Consider that he's worked closely with Dumbledore and was even assigned to personally instruct Harry in skills he needed.

Then consider how the heck Harry managed to get a passing grade in Potions after everything Snape put him through.  Sure seemed fishy to me.  I figured Snape would fail him for sure!

So perhaps Dumbledore arranged for Slughorn to give Snape's personal book to Harry, after arranging for a change in professorial possitions, so that Harry could learn potions from Snape without knowing, without Snape appearing to aid Harry, without anyone else being the wiser.  The positional swap could have been Snape's reward and would also have spared him the pain of watching Harry use his book as well as any other difficulties.


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## Macbeth (Jul 27, 2005)

I'm betting Snape is a Good Guy. The early chapter where he makes the Unbreakable Oath can be read 2 ways: Either he's really working for Voldemort, and this is how he really is, or he's working for the OotP, and this is what he has to do to maintain his cover. I didn't see anything in that chapter that couldn't be explained be 'keeping his cover.'

As for Dumbeldore: despite speculation from this thread and other sources (Time Magainze, among others), I think he'll stay at least mostly dead. Perhaps a few talks with his portrait (which will be more of characature then a true personality) or some Obi-Wan style ghosting, but I think he'll stay dead.

I do have to say that the death in this book was much better then in Book 5. When Sirius died, I felt bad for Harry, but it wasn't really sad. Sirius was more like the cool older kid, who has to die to prove things are real. Dumbeldoor, on the other hand, made me sad just to see him go. 

I'm also glad that there may be some possibillity for breaking the pattern of the other books in Book 7. Throughout Book 6 I was thinking it was feeling a bit formulaic: Dursleys, The Burrow, Hogwarts (sorting hat, classes, mysterious happening, quidditch), Harry's theories, conclusion. I'd compare it to a formula TV show, like Law & Order, or perhaps Star Trek: each episode has the same basic plot, with some new scene dressing. Sure Harry had more character development, but it felt like the same story (Hagrid even says "It's like the Chamber of Secrets all over again"). The 7th book could be the one that makes an impact by breaking the patter, like the few Law & Order episodes that break the Investigate and Prosecute plot (by changing the order,or doing something else entirely).

Anyways, good book, and I hope JK Rowling really gets cracking on the next one.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 28, 2005)

Was rereading during discussion. Theoretically (if Dumbledore is right), Harry was to be the 6th Horcrux. Instead, it was the snake years later (when he kills the muggle in book4).

Also, time frame wise. I don't think Snape could have betrayed the Dark Lord because of Lily's Death, since he was feeding info to the Order before then, given that the organization fell apart when the Dark Lord died (along with Lily.)


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## billd91 (Jul 28, 2005)

Chimera said:
			
		

> I dunno.  Consider that he's worked closely with Dumbledore and was even assigned to personally instruct Harry in skills he needed.
> 
> Then consider how the heck Harry managed to get a passing grade in Potions after everything Snape put him through.  Sure seemed fishy to me.  I figured Snape would fail him for sure!
> 
> So perhaps Dumbledore arranged for Slughorn to give Snape's personal book to Harry, after arranging for a change in professorial possitions, so that Harry could learn potions from Snape without knowing, without Snape appearing to aid Harry, without anyone else being the wiser.  The positional swap could have been Snape's reward and would also have spared him the pain of watching Harry use his book as well as any other difficulties.




Snape can't fail Potter at potions. The OWL testing is a national standard test, run and graded by a testing board. The individual teachers can prepare the students for the tests, but they don't have any bearing on the outcome. It mimicks the British system to a certain degree.
Snape seems genuinely surprised that Potter is using material from his old book. He's pretty sure it's going on since Potter uses one of his old nasty hexes, but Potter manages to dodge him for a while on it. I seriously doubt Dumbledore had anything to do with it. I think it's just a coincidence designed by Rowling to give us more insight into Snape's character.


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## billd91 (Jul 28, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Was rereading during discussion. Theoretically (if Dumbledore is right), Harry was to be the 6th Horcrux. Instead, it was the snake years later (when he kills the muggle in book4).
> 
> Also, time frame wise. I don't think Snape could have betrayed the Dark Lord because of Lily's Death, since he was feeding info to the Order before then, given that the organization fell apart when the Dark Lord died (along with Lily.)




Harry wasn't supposed to _be_ the sixth horcrux. His death was supposed to _fuel the creation_ of the 6th horcrux. There would have been some other vessel, something inanimate, possibly even something left behind that Harry and his friends might find when they go back to the place of his parents' deaths.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 28, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> Harry wasn't supposed to _be_ the sixth horcrux. His death was supposed to _fuel the creation_ of the 6th horcrux. There would have been some other vessel, something inanimate, possibly even something left behind that Harry and his friends might find when they go back to the place of his parents' deaths.



Right, that's what I meant, sorry. Harry was supposed to create it...
Basically just meant "he probably isn't the horcrux, if the snake is made afterwards", but who knows for sure.


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## warlord (Jul 28, 2005)

Ok when Fenrir mauled Bill's face did he use his nails or his teeth?


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## warlord (Jul 28, 2005)

Amd its obvious that Harry broke it off with Ginny because he wants on Hermione. Once they hook up Ron will find out and become Voldermort's Vader leading to a confrentation between Ron and Harry where Harry has to kill him.


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## Renton (Jul 28, 2005)

warlord said:
			
		

> Amd its obvious that Harry broke it off with Ginny because he wants on Hermione. Once they hook up Ron will find out and become Voldermort's Vader leading to a confrentation between Ron and Harry where Harry has to kill him.




I like the way you think.    

Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if Harry was the 6th horcrux and had to martyr himself.  I seem to recall an interview (and my memory is hazy on this, so, grain of salt) with JKR around OotP's publication saying that Harry's story was going to follow/be influenced by the new testament story.  So, it might not be out of the question.


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

Rowlings has already told that the final chapter of the series is written, and its stored in a bank vault or something. In addition the series has been from the start defined as a 7 book series. Sounds kinda final. That makes one figure that something bad will happen to Potty at the end of the series. I can figure two possible alternatives:

a) Harry martyrs himself and dies killing big Voldy

b) Harry loses his magical powers killing big Voldy. Now he's a Muggle without the scar and must leave the magical world behind forever. (The final scene is him pumping gas at a BP station  Well maybe not that ..   ) That would be kinda serene but sad ending. 

c) He's allowed to sail wes .. damn, just kidding again 

In any case, I can't see a totally happy ending.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 28, 2005)

I think the one unresolved major mystery from Half-Blood Prince that will be critical in the next book is this: what happened to Dumbeldore's hand? I also have a sneaking suspicion that the answer to this may reveal that everything may not have been as it seemed in the confrontation between Dumbeldore and Snape.

One little tidbit that I remembered was in Chapter 2: Wormtail is described, and has a "peculiar silver glove on his right hand" (or some similar description). Dumbeldore's right hand and arm are withered and blackened. Don't Death Eaters usually have their identifying mark on their right arm? Could a former Death Eater who removed his mark the hard way have been impersonating Dumbeldore for the entire book?


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## JimAde (Jul 28, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I think the one unresolved major mystery from Half-Blood Prince that will be critical in the next book is this: what happened to Dumbeldore's hand? I also have a sneaking suspicion that the answer to this may reveal that everything may not have been as it seemed in the confrontation between Dumbeldore and Snape.




Dumbledore said it happened when he was destroying the ring horcrux (the ring wasn't actually destroyed, but it is no longer a horcrux).  I don't know if the details are important.



			
				Storm Raven said:
			
		

> One little tidbit that I remembered was in Chapter 2: Wormtail is described, and has a "peculiar silver glove on his right hand" (or some similar description). Dumbeldore's right hand and arm are withered and blackened. Don't Death Eaters usually have their identifying mark on their right arm? Could a former Death Eater who removed his mark the hard way have been impersonating Dumbeldore for the entire book?




Wormtail lost his hand in Goblet of Fire.  Voldemort replaced it at that time with a silver hand.  It looks like a hand in a glove, but it's actually an artificial limb.  Deat Eaters hear the mark (I believe) on their left arm.  The idea that it wasn't really Dumbledore is interesting, but I would be kind of disappointed in JKR if that turns out to be the case.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 28, 2005)

JimAde said:
			
		

> Dumbledore said it happened when he was destroying the ring horcrux (the ring wasn't actually destroyed, but it is no longer a horcrux).  I don't know if the details are important.




That's what he said, but he kept putting off "telling the whole story". And then he died. I'm thinking that the "whole story" may turn out to be fairly important.



> _Wormtail lost his hand in Goblet of Fire.  Voldemort replaced it at that time with a silver hand.  It looks like a hand in a glove, but it's actually an artificial limb._





Ah yes. I forgot that. That's what happens when you go a couple years between reading books in a series. (Damn you Rowling, write faster so I can remember things from previous books better!)



> _Death Eaters hear the mark (I believe) on their left arm.  The idea that it wasn't really Dumbledore is interesting, but I would be kind of disappointed in JKR if that turns out to be the case. _





I thought it was the right, but once again, I'm probably misremembering. On the other hand, what got me thinking about Dumbeldore being "faked" was the fact that Dumbeldore brought it up when he picked up Harry from the Dursley's, they made such a prominent mention of the tactic in the Ministry publications, and the elder Weasley's took it seriously. That kind of foreshadowing should pay off in a bigger way than "Crabbe and Goyle are using polyjuice potion to be lookouts for Draco".


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

They should give Rowlings similar security to the royals and put her in a bubble so nothing happens to her before she completes part 7. There would be riots, I tell you, riots!


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## JimAde (Jul 28, 2005)

I actually have this recurring fear that she'll just say, "Meh.  I don't feel like it.  Sorry."


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## Staffan (Jul 28, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> In addition the series has been from the start defined as a 7 book series.



That might have something to do with the series being about Harry growing up at Hogwarts, and you're only there for seven years.


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## Numion (Jul 28, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> That might have something to do with the series being about Harry growing up at Hogwarts, and you're only there for seven years.




Yeah, and she planned the plot out in advance. If nothing bad happens to Harry at the end of book 7, why would she say that the 7th book is absolutely last Potter? There would be a demand for Harry books after the 7th .. which would of course be when he's outta Hogwarts. Why close that door without a reason? These aren't Hogwarts books but Harry Potter books.


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## Storm Raven (Jul 28, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> Yeah, and she planned the plot out in advance. If nothing bad happens to Harry at the end of book 7, why would she say that the 7th book is absolutely last Potter? There would be a demand for Harry books after the 7th .. which would of course be when he's outta Hogwarts. Why close that door without a reason?




Because she already has her gazillion dollars, and wants to write about other things?


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## billd91 (Jul 28, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> Yeah, and she planned the plot out in advance. If nothing bad happens to Harry at the end of book 7, why would she say that the 7th book is absolutely last Potter? There would be a demand for Harry books after the 7th .. which would of course be when he's outta Hogwarts. Why close that door without a reason? These aren't Hogwarts books but Harry Potter books.




So that Harry Potter doesn't wear out his welcome like some other series of books I can mention? 
I don't think Jo Rowling wants to devote her life to Harry Potter. She'll tell the story she wants to tell and move on to other things, at least for a while. It's OK for stories to have an end.


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## David Howery (Jul 29, 2005)

besides, once Voldemort and the great wizard war are over with, there's not much else about Potter to write about that wouldn't seem to be a whole lot lesser in contrast... maybe JKR will write about some other character in the same setting in future books...


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## Numion (Jul 29, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> Because she already has her gazillion dollars, and wants to write about other things?




True, but I still don't see the reason to be absolute about it, unless his artistic vision demands it. Sure she's fed up now, and probably wishes that she'd said that Hogwarts is a 6-year school, but she may want to return to that magic world with Potter later on - unless, of course, something bad happens to Potter. 

If all is well with Potter at the end of the book 7, she could still do it. If Potter is dead, it hobviously isn't the case.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 29, 2005)

Numion said:
			
		

> True, but I still don't see the reason to be absolute about it, unless his artistic vision demands it. Sure she's fed up now, and probably wishes that she'd said that Hogwarts is a 6-year school, but she may want to return to that magic world with Potter later on - unless, of course, something bad happens to Potter.
> 
> If all is well with Potter at the end of the book 7, she could still do it. If Potter is dead, it hobviously isn't the case.



I think it is her artistic vision that demands ending Harry Potter after 7 books. Simply because she knows that she will never be able to recreate the fascination and interest for HP if she tries to start up a new story-line with the same characters, after the old one has been resolved. She didn´t want to drag it out (like other book series), and she didn´t want to create new story-lines for the same characters.


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## JimAde (Jul 29, 2005)

In a recent interview (Time Magazine) JKR said she can't really see herself writing ANY fantasy books after this series, much less more HP stories.  I really think she just wants to finish this one great (and very long) story then do other stuff.  She also said it's entirely possible that when she writes anything else it'll be dreadful and that scares her a bit.


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## neg (Jul 29, 2005)

*I agree!*



			
				Larka said:
			
		

> Anyway, this whole 'Regulus Black is R.A.B' thing fits quite nicely, and if you read paragraph three on page 108 in Order of the Phoenix, the cleaning crew find 'a heavy locket that none of them could open.' Could this be the horcrux that Harry and Dumbledore tried to get in the cave?
> 
> If it was a horcrux, then it will be hard to find, and they threw everything away. However there is a posibility that Kreacher stole it (if you remember he tried to retrieve items which were being thrown away) or possibly Mundungus (who Harry threatened outside the Pub when he found out he had been stealing from Grimmauld Place.





I agree with this post completely.  I re-read book 5 while my fiance read book 6 and this line struck me as odd.  But seen in the context of Book 6, it is absolutely obvious.

Great and insightful first post, Larka.  Welcome to the Boards!

-neg


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## Barendd Nobeard (Jul 29, 2005)

Biography ran their JKR episode (with a few tweaks for book 6 and clips from movie 4) this month.  Here's what she said about the final chapter.

It's already written.  She no longer keeps it at home.  She wouldn't even open the envelope in front of the reporter.  It's an epilogue, which tells what happens to everyone.

It sounds very "final" to me.  Of course, fifteen years later she may get the itch....I just hope we don't get seven "sequels" that tell the same story from Bean's Ron's point of view!


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## Fast Learner (Jul 29, 2005)

Since this is the spoiler thread, I can mention this. 

Someone jokingly referred to the title of the book as _Harry Potter and the Snape Kills Dumbledore_, which I thought was funny as hell.

My next throught was that she probably would have sold _even more_ books with that title, since people who'd given up back at book 3 or whatever would likely go, "Whoa, I've _got_ to read that!"


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## JRRNeiklot (Jul 30, 2005)

I can't believe I'm the only one who caught this:

"Well, I certainly did have a drink ...and I came back  ... after a fashion ..."

I think this means by drinking the juice, Dumbledore replaced Voldermort's soul shard with his own.  He came back...after a fashion...  All of him didn't come back.  A fraction of his soul is somewhere else.  The locket?  He'll be back in the next book.  Rising from the ashes, as it were.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Jul 30, 2005)

JRRNeiklot said:
			
		

> I can't believe I'm the only one who caught this:
> 
> "Well, I certainly did have a drink ...and I came back  ... after a fashion ..."
> 
> I think this means by drinking the juice, Dumbledore replaced Voldermort's soul shard with his own.  He came back...after a fashion...  All of him didn't come back.  A fraction of his soul is somewhere else.  The locket?  He'll be back in the next book.  Rising from the ashes, as it were.




That would provide some more linkage to the "Order of the Phoenix".  Maybe DD is the real Phoenix?

But alas, I think DD's appearance as a portrait in the headmasters office is the final sign.  Unlike LoTR, I suspect death is final for JKR's characters.


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## ForceUser (Jul 30, 2005)

Just finished, and here's my sense of things.

Dumbledore will not be returning.

Hogwart's will continue on, with McGonegal as headmistress, though Harry will not attend. Book 7 will take a new direction, with Hogwart's in the background as the focus shifts to Harry's search for the Horcruxes.

When the 7th book starts, Harry will have mastered Apparition and matured as a wizard, much as Luke Skywalker did between _The Empire Strikes Back_ and _Return of the Jedi_. 

Ginny did, in fact, anticipate and accept the breakup. If Harry survives and Voldemort dies, they might get back together. It's just as likely that Ginny will move on, as JKR seems to inject more realism into each successive book. 

Snape is evil through and through, and always has been; Dumbledore's unwavering trust in him was his Achilles' Heel in the most classic literary sense--the tragic flaw that was his undoing.

The final battle between Harry and Voldemort will occur on the grounds of Hogwart's, and the nature of the school itself--its history, its secrets--will be of crucial importance to the final outcome. The school will possibly be destroyed in that fight.

And finally, my most off-beat, irrational, baseless prediction:

Harry dies taking Voldemort out. As others have said, the prophecy is rather lame anyway. I just have a gut feeling JKR will end with a bang, which, in my mind, would be fitting. There's little place for a Harry Potter in a Voldemort-less world.

Rowling's entire tale is a rather ingenious (if, at times, pedestrian) retelling of the heroic epic that has been told and retold throughout human history:

_In many myths and folk tales, a hero is a man or woman traditionally the protagonist of a story, legend or saga, who commonly possesses abilities or character far greater than that of a typical person, which enable him or her to perform some extraordinary, beneficial deed (a "heroic deed") for which he or she is famous. These powers are sometimes not only of the body but also of the mind. Heroes are typically opposed by villains, and are aided on their quest by a sage or mentor. At the beginning of the tale, the hero is often an orphan or foundling lacking potency or virility, but through the journey gains the strength and resources he or she needs to face the villain. These resources usually come in the form of spectacular or magical items, as well as training and advice from the mentor, whom the protagonist eventually surpasses._


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## takyris (Jul 31, 2005)

Read it, loved it, yadda yadda yadda.

For the record, my completely uninformed opinion is that Neville is actually the one chosen in the prophecy -- the attacks on his parents marked Neville's very soul, while the attacks on Harry simply gave him a scar.

And I think Snape is now a seriously deep-cover double-agent -- most likely Dumbledore was the only one who knew Snape was supposed to kill Dumbledore, and now Snape is all alone, trying to carry out Dumbledore's dying wishes. I still don't buy Snape as truly evil, and I see it as very similar to an incident in G.R.R. Martin's "Storm of Swords"...

The whole Dumbledore death scene rocked hard. Good stuff.


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## Vocenoctum (Jul 31, 2005)

takyris said:
			
		

> For the record, my completely uninformed opinion is that Neville is actually the one chosen in the prophecy -- the attacks on his parents marked Neville's very soul, while the attacks on Harry simply gave him a scar.



I doubt it, since Voldemort didn't commit the offenses against Neville. From what I've seen in other FAQ's, the author intended Neville as a "what if it had been someone else" to make a point, I don't think there's any chance it's him.
He can still be very involved in the fights though, so Neville will contribute to Voldemort's defeat.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Aug 1, 2005)

I also think Snape is very evil. Harry was unable to use the killing curse on the woman who killed Sirius because he did not hate her enough – but Snape hated Dumbledore enough to kill him. I think he utterly self serving and worked for Dumbledore because it allowed him to survive and follows Voldemort because power.


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## Arnix (Aug 1, 2005)

Did anyone else notice that after Kreecher and Dobey came back from spying on Malfoy that Harry told Dobey to relax and that he was done, but never told Kreecher to stop following Malfoy?


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## JimAde (Aug 1, 2005)

I caught that too, though I came away with the impression that he never really released either of them.  Since Dobby isn't actually compelled to obey Harry he might have drawn the conclusion that he was done, but as far as I'm concerned, Kreacher is still on Draco-duty.  Could be a very handy source of info about the Death Eaters, if he can be trusted.


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## KenM (Aug 2, 2005)

http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=510


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## ForceUser (Aug 2, 2005)

LOL! I want that shirt!


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## KenM (Aug 2, 2005)

I'm going to wear that shirt when I go see the Goblet of Fire movie.


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## kingpaul (Aug 2, 2005)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Harry was unable to use the killing curse on the woman who killed Sirius because he did not hate her enough



But Harry didn't use the killing curse, he used Crucio. Bellatrix (sp) said that righteous anger wasn't enough to fuel the curse to cause sufficient pain.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 4, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=510




That is hysterical!

I almost bought that shirt for my daughter.  But then I had visions of her getting lynched by morons at the mall, enraged at spoiler.  

That, and the fact that t-shirt hell won't be shipping their next batch until Friday August 12.  Too many people will have read the book by then!


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (Aug 5, 2005)

Guys, Lord Voldemort needs your help! Go here http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=142560 , and vote for him.


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## Templetroll (Aug 5, 2005)

Olgar Shiverstone said:
			
		

> So why wouldn't the Death Eaters use House Elf assassins?




With the attitude of most Death Eaters they would trust a House Elf to do anything non-meniel?  I doubt it.


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## FireLance (Aug 5, 2005)

Idle speculation: what if Harry's scar (and not Harry himself) is the final Horcrux?


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 6, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> Idle speculation: what if Harry's scar (and not Harry himself) is the final Horcrux?



Idle Speculation: What if Voldemort is HARRY'S Horcux!
Harry did Kill him afterall!

But anyway, the snake is the 6th Horcrux, Harry'd have to be the 5th. I don't see the series going that way. I think there's a Ravenclaw artifact hidden in Hogwarts. I was thinking a book, but the Diary would seem redundant then.


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## Endur (Aug 6, 2005)

Melkor said:
			
		

> You see, Dumbedore believes that there is good with everybody, but sometimes even he might make mistakes.




Nah.  Dumbledore is like Obi-Wan Kenobi, he never makes mistakes.


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## Mathew_Freeman (Aug 6, 2005)

Great thread, lots of good information.

The fact that V tried to actually and personally kill Harry at the end of GoF does tend to hint that Harry isn't a Horcrux...but then, if V doesn't know about it...argh.

I'm also in the Snape's-not-evil-just-nasty school of thought. That early scene with him apparently 'revealing' himself as truly evil just reeks of advance plot set up.

Has anyone gone back and read all of the previous books and noticed anything new about the most recent? Often JKR has put some very advanced foreshadowing in, and I'd be interested if anything in HBP can be foreseen.

I bet some of the Harry Potter film cast have been emailing each other with speculation since this came out! Maggie Smith (McGonagall) must be very pleased at how her character is turning out. 

Lastly, Dumbledore's funeral was really quite moving, although I was a bit surprised that no one else tried to talk to Harry afterwards - surely McGonagall would have wanted a word as the new Headmistress?


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## Laurel (Aug 8, 2005)

Just finished the book last week (yes I'm behind the mass crowds)

1) I like to think Dumbledore as Obi-one, since I also like to think he isn't dead necessarily.  He may have needed to show Harry that last bit to set him on his course, but when V is defeated Harry will understand a way to bring D back.  No from death to life, but something else.

2) Snape is a hard one to pin point.  He could still just be in on D's wishes and it's actually bad.  He hates all those associated with Harry, but even if false and fool hardy I like to think Snape has good in him somehow/someplace.

3) I loved the relationship building, but there seemed almost too much of it.  That is the one downer of this book.  Till the end there are love battles going on, but not the normal action she has been putting in the first half of the books.  That could just be since book 7 will be so much action, and she wanted to get in the last really good hit of these are people relate to them.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 9, 2005)

Laurel said:
			
		

> 2) Snape is a hard one to pin point.  He could still just be in on D's wishes and it's actually bad.  He hates all those associated with Harry, but even if false and fool hardy I like to think Snape has good in him somehow/someplace.




I watched "Prisoner of Azkaban" last night and I was struck by the scene next to the whomping willow.  When the werewolf is about to attack, Snape stands protectively in front of the three children (Ron, Harry, and Hermione).  JK Rowling also says on the bonus features DVD that there are lots of little things that the director put in that are important later on.  She theorized that people will think she told him to put them in, but she says that he did it on his own and she seemed really pleased that he had picked up on some very little things that were very important.  I think the scene with Snape is one of those details.  It looks like completely natural move on Snape's part--an instinctive spur-of-the-moment thing--not the actions of someone who wants to see Harry dead.




			
				Laurel said:
			
		

> 3) I loved the relationship building, but there seemed almost too much of it.  That is the one downer of this book.  Till the end there are love battles going on, but not the normal action she has been putting in the first half of the books.  That could just be since book 7 will be so much action, and she wanted to get in the last really good hit of these are people relate to them.




I hope you're right on that!


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## Valanthe the Sleepless (Aug 15, 2005)

Kid Charlemagne said:
			
		

> Posted before reading anything else in this thread:
> 
> Harry & Ginny - expected it.
> Ron & Hermione - the same
> ...




I just finished the book last night. And I agree with all the above. Especially the Harry as the last horcrux. I kept thinking that's what Dumbledore was leading to when talking to Harry near the end about what might be Voldemorts horcruxes, but he didn't say it. I don't know if he just didn't want to put that burden on Harry right away, or if even he (Dumbledore) didn't even realize it yet.

I also am leaning towards Regulus as RAB, and figuring that the locket was at Black house, but that Mundungus probably unknowingly scooped it up and sold it when stealing stuff from the house.

Overall I really enjoyed it, but I am still in shock from Dumbledore. I still can't believe it and sat there crying while reading about the funeral.

I told Wizardru he'd better hurry up and read it this week, because I am not going to be able to keep quiet about it for ever.


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## Tolen Mar (Aug 15, 2005)

I too just finished it.  I was reading other things when it came out and my wife read it before me.

(I imagine we are about to see a new wave of speculation arise as the 'second' and 'third' round buyers finish up.)

I've also just finished reading this thread.

The first thing I thought when I finished it was that Dumbledore isnt dead.  It was all a plot between him ans Snape to redeem Draco and draw out Voldemort from wherever he is hiding.

Now Im not so sure, but I really do beleive we will see something more of Dumbledore.

In regards to Harry as the 'missing' horcrux...I can see it.  Even if Voldemort could sense Harry as his Horcrux.  Ok, first of all, if Voldemort was there to make a Horcrux out of something in the Potter's home, anything there would have been a trophy for him.  We know there were some reasons to go after James and Lilly, so lets set up to make it there and wipe them out while we are after it.  Then I can take the trinket and lord over it and chuckle evilly, knowing what it meant.

Now, Voldemort dies, the horcux spell backfires, and Harry becomes the Horcrux.  We know that because of Snape, Voldemort went after the Potters, and that Harry was protected by Lilly's final act.  That's enough in my book to make things go in an unplanned direction.  Since Voldemort knows about the prophecy, and inadvertantly marked Harry (in more ways than one), he also knows how much of a threat it would be for Harry to be left alive.  Horcux or not, he wants Harry dead.

Or to look at it this way, if Harry ever found out that he was the last horcux, then Harry would know that the only way to truly defeat Voldemort would be to die.  Better to wipe out this weak link early, before they start finding horcuxes, than wait until Harry is the only one left.  If Harry should somehow become the last one, he has no control over what happens to his immortailty.  Besides, if Voldemort deals with Harry early on, and he absolutely NEEDS another Horcrux, he has plenty of time to move on to the next person on his list.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 16, 2005)

Valanthe the Sleepless said:
			
		

> I just finished the book last night. And I agree with all the above. Especially the Harry as the last horcrux. I kept thinking that's what Dumbledore was leading to when talking to Harry near the end about what might be Voldemorts horcruxes, but he didn't say it. I don't know if he just didn't want to put that burden on Harry right away, or if even he (Dumbledore) didn't even realize it yet.



I can't see Harry being the 5th Horcrux, it just seems eh. It's entirely possible, but doesn't sync. Speculation (IIRC) from Dumbledore was that Harry's death would have made the 6th and final Horcrux since he'd be really significant to kill. But the snake is the 6th. It could be wrong on many counts, but I still think it's a Ravenclaw item hidden at Hogwarts somewhere.



> I also am leaning towards Regulus as RAB, and figuring that the locket was at Black house, but that Mundungus probably unknowingly scooped it up and sold it when stealing stuff from the house.



When Harry bumped into him, Mundungus was talking to Aberforth Dumbledore. It would be quite the coincidence if Albus had access to the Amulet that contributed to his death, before going there.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 16, 2005)

Tolen Mar said:
			
		

> The first thing I thought when I finished it was that Dumbledore isnt dead.  It was all a plot between him ans Snape to redeem Draco and draw out Voldemort from wherever he is hiding.



Will all the talk of faking death, the Phoenix imagery surrounding Albus, and the other little things, it seemed to point to him being alive. After the funeral and such though, I can't imagine it.


> Besides, if Voldemort deals with Harry early on, and he absolutely NEEDS another Horcrux, he has plenty of time to move on to the next person on his list.




I'm still not sure on the 7 Soul Plan. 2 of them have been destroyed, but I think 7 is a limit, so he can't make more. The Horcrux doesn't seem to aid him directly, so it seems more like Voldemort wanted to have 1/7th of a soul, rather than wanting 6 Horcruxes.


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 19, 2005)

Hi.  Found this thread due to a lark Google search, and thought I'd join the forum and throw out my own thoughts.

Dumbledore may have died, but I'm _absolutely certain_ he'll get better.  The other phoenix imagery associated with him would've been a big enough clue, but when his body spontaneously burst into flames, and Harry spotted the form of a phoenix flying from the smoke?  That suggests powerful phoenix-oriented magic taking effect.  What's more, the entire sixth book is riddled with hints that Dumbledore and Snape planned the death _together_, and made sure it happened.  Dumbledore might be willing to die to prepare Harry to face Voldemort, but there's a lot of other things he could've done to help Harry before the confrontation instead.  Like help him find the other Horcruxes, because it seems like Dumbledore is the only one capable of tracking them down.  The death of Dumbledore cost more advantages for Harry than he's gained, unless Dumbledore is able to continue helping from behind the scenes.  I believe that he'll show up at the end of the seventh book, and explain everything.

Harry's scar as a Horcux is possible, but I don't believe that it will end in Harry's death.  The series atmosphere has grown a lot bleaker, but it isn't that sort of series yet.  What's more, the prophecy doesn't seem to be worded to suggest that Harry must die to achieve victory.  Finally, when Dumbledore found out that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to revive himself, and had thus gained the protection that had saved Harry as a baby for himself, Dumbledore's eyes lit up for a moment.  We never did find out what that was about.  I suspect that it means that Voldemort has tied himself to Harry in such a way that will make him far easier and less costly to defeat.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 19, 2005)

I don't think Harry will die, but I think there's a good chance his magical strength is diminished once Voldemort is dead.

And welcome to the forums!


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## Chain Lightning (Aug 19, 2005)

DragonMan Ren said:
			
		

> Hi.  Found this thread due to a lark Google search, and thought I'd join the forum and throw out my own thoughts.
> 
> Dumbledore may have died, but I'm _absolutely certain_ he'll get better.  The other phoenix imagery associated with him would've been a big enough clue, but when his body spontaneously burst into flames, and Harry spotted the form of a phoenix flying from the smoke?  That suggests powerful phoenix-oriented magic taking effect.  What's more, the entire sixth book is riddled with hints that Dumbledore and Snape planned the death _together_, and made sure it happened.  Dumbledore might be willing to die to prepare Harry to face Voldemort, but there's a lot of other things he could've done to help Harry before the confrontation instead.  Like help him find the other Horcruxes, because it seems like Dumbledore is the only one capable of tracking them down.  The death of Dumbledore cost more advantages for Harry than he's gained, unless Dumbledore is able to continue helping from behind the scenes.  I believe that he'll show up at the end of the seventh book, and explain everything..




That theory totally makes sense. In fact, now that you mention it, I'm going with it too. It would be very Rowling-esque to do it that way. Plus, as people pointed out, our boy died too easily . . . 

... plus, it explains why Dumbledore froze Harry. Or else he would've stopped his and Snape's fake out plan from being performed. It makes sense. Plus, if I was DM, I'd throw something like this at the players too.


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 19, 2005)

Chain Lightning said:
			
		

> That theory totally makes sense. In fact, now that you mention it, I'm going with it too. It would be very Rowling-esque to do it that way. Plus, as people pointed out, our boy died too easily . . .
> 
> ... plus, it explains why Dumbledore froze Harry. Or else he would've stopped his and Snape's fake out plan from being performed. It makes sense. Plus, if I was DM, I'd throw something like this at the players too.




No doubt. I've been debating this point privately for about a week. The Unbreakable Vow technically just binds Snape to protect Malfoy, and if he can't do it, kill Dumbledore - which he's done, making his cover with the Death Eaters ironclad. Technically, he's done exactly that. However, even if it wasn't part of Dumbledore's long-term plans already, it would certainly appear to fit now. And yes, if you look at the subtleties, Dumbledore _clearly_ went to great lengths to ensure that the assassination took place.  



			
				Kid Charlemange said:
			
		

> I don't think Harry will die, but I think there's a good chance his magical strength is diminished once Voldemort is dead.
> 
> And welcome to the forums!




Thanks!

I think there's just as good a chance that his power will increase, personally. Voldemort polluted his essence with the magic of Lily Potter's sacrifice. I could imagine that, in the end, destroying all the things that make Voldemort wicked, bad, and naughty. Conversely, Harry is contaminated with a part of Voldemort's own soul. The prophecy... The part where "neither can live while the other survives"? I think it implies that the victor will subsume the essence of the other, and gain power - Voldemort will succeed at corrupting Harry's essence with his own, or Harry will purify Voldemort out of existance, and one will have the power of both. In the end, I'm seeing Harry lining up to be the successor of Dumbledore - when Dumbledore really needs one. 

EDIT: As an aside, if my idea is anywhere _near_ the metaphorical zip code of the truth, it is absolutely crucial that no one inside the setting knows that, at this point. 

EDIT the Second: How cool would this be?  Harry manages to triumph over Voldemort, however it happens.  Then, as the mess is being cleaned up, the very last person to be cornered is Snape.  Harry's working himself up to kill him for what he did to Dumbledore...  When he's stopped, by none other than _Dumbledore!_


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## Bihor (Aug 19, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> I half-expected Dumbledore to pull a phoenix, and rise again.  But he didn't.




It's not too late, there still one book to come.


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 19, 2005)

Bihor said:
			
		

> It's not too late, there still one book to come.




I'm still convinced that he _has._ A spontaneous phoenix-shaped funeral pyre that leaves no body? Come on, now. I'm amazed that at least half the cast didn't immediately assume a shrewd, knowing look, and spend the rest of the day with a smirk.


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## The Druid Merlin (Aug 19, 2005)

Alzrius said:
			
		

> had a werewolf that liked to eat people when untransformed;




He doesn't eat his victoms. He tries to transform them. That's why he targets children. He wants to spread lycanthropy throughout the world.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 19, 2005)

The Druid Merlin said:
			
		

> He doesn't eat his victoms. He tries to transform them. That's why he targets children. He wants to spread lycanthropy throughout the world.



 Hmmmmmm..... I got the impression that he ate the children.  Now, I'll have to re-read the book to be sure.


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## JimAde (Aug 19, 2005)

DragonMan Ren said:
			
		

> No doubt. I've been debating this point privately for about a week. The Unbreakable Vow technically just binds Snape to protect Malfoy, and if he can't do it, kill Dumbledore - which he's done, making his cover with the Death Eaters ironclad. Technically, he's done exactly that. However, even if it wasn't part of Dumbledore's long-term plans already, it would certainly appear to fit now. And yes, if you look at the subtleties, Dumbledore _clearly_ went to great lengths to ensure that the assassination took place.




Actually, this is something that's been bugging me about the online discussions.  Does it actually say in the book that Malfoy's "task" (that Snape vowed to complete if Malfoy couldn't) was actually killing Dumbledore?  What if it was just getting the cabinet repaired and letting the Death Eaters in?  If that were the case, Snape could conspire with Dumbledore to fake his death without breaking his Unbreakable Vow.


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## The Halfling (Aug 19, 2005)

*Another thought...*

I just remember something from OotP...pheonixes cannot be permenantly killed by a Killing Curse. Voldy cast one at Dumbledore during the Minisitry Mayhem, and Fawlkes swooped in and took the spell. It did "kill" Fawlkes, but he just reverted to his after-death form.

Just something else to ponder...


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 19, 2005)

JimAde said:
			
		

> Actually, this is something that's been bugging me about the online discussions. Does it actually say in the book that Malfoy's "task" (that Snape vowed to complete if Malfoy couldn't) was actually killing Dumbledore? What if it was just getting the cabinet repaired and letting the Death Eaters in? If that were the case, Snape could conspire with Dumbledore to fake his death without breaking his Unbreakable Vow.




Actually, Snape knew about the Dumbledore-killing part.  What he didn't know was how Malfoy went about doing it.  That's why he was bugging Malfoy to share his plan, despite already knowing Malfoy's orders, so he could swear an Unbreakable Vow to carry them out.  There was no _faking_ the death.  Dumbledore died.  He just returns to life via phoenix-oriented magic.  If anyone else has an idea why Dumbledore's body spontaneously erupts in flames, which produces a flying phoenix image, and then leaves no body, I'd love to hear it.



			
				The Halfling said:
			
		

> I just remember something from OotP...pheonixes cannot be permenantly killed by a Killing Curse. Voldy cast one at Dumbledore during the Minisitry Mayhem, and Fawlkes swooped in and took the spell. It did "kill" Fawlkes, but he just reverted to his after-death form.
> 
> Just something else to ponder...




Well, yeah.  The Avada KaPlotDevice spell kills things.  The phoenixes come back to life after they die.  That's what they do.


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## Bihor (Aug 19, 2005)

So IF Snape is onder covert as a eath eater and playing for Dumbledore, the avaca.. evil spell should't work. It was said in OotP that you need to what to eart you target.

Just a tough


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 20, 2005)

Bihor said:
			
		

> So IF Snape is onder covert as a eath eater and playing for Dumbledore, the avaca.. evil spell should't work. It was said in OotP that you need to what to eart you target.
> 
> Just a tough




That wasn't the Avada Kedarva.  That was the Cruciatus Curse.  I'm assuming that you're trying to say that you need to hate the target to use it.  However, I'm assuming that you can just be a vicious, hate-filled person in general and use it.  Otherwise, it'd be a pretty useless spell.  What's more, it's pretty specific to that spell.  There are endless examples of non-hate-filled Dark spell use in the series.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 20, 2005)

A T-shirt that I love.

(NOTE: other T-shirts on this site may not be safe for work or for those easily offended. But this link only takes you to one effectively inoffensive shirt.)


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 20, 2005)

Yeah, that's great!  It got posted a couple of pages back.

If you get your order in by Sunday, they ship the following Friday.  It takes 5-7 business days to get their items once they ship.


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## Fast Learner (Aug 20, 2005)

I kinda thought it might have been... was late and I was feeling lazy (got behind on the thread). No excuses, next time I check!


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 20, 2005)

*Percy*

Does anyone think it's possible that Percy is the working for the Order of the Phoenix--he's basically their "inside man" for what the government is up to?

Or is he just a prat?!

I was thinking about all of the other Weasley family members, and he just seems so out of step with them.  Of course, what makes me think that this is not the case is the strained relationship with his parents.  But that could just be part of his "deep cover."


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 20, 2005)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I kinda thought it might have been... was late and I was feeling lazy (got behind on the thread). No excuses, next time I check!



 Don't do that!  This t-shirt needs all the exposure it can get!


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## The Druid Merlin (Aug 20, 2005)

From what I remember Voldemort promised the giants and werewolves freedom and respect, something that other wizards have denied them. Of course Dumbledore has promised the same thing. Voldemort is using his promise to cause them to become evil and violent, while Dumbledore was trying to get the wizarding community simply accept them and recognize them as people with the same rights as other Beings. This is my breakdown of some of the characters by alignment.

Voldemort  Murderous and nihilistic.  Chaotic Evil
Lucius Malfoy  Corrupt and power hungry.  Lawful Evil
Minister of Magic  Callous, shameless self-promoter, and Machiavellian. Lawful Neutral (with tendencies towards Evil)
Albus Dumbledore  Kind, tolerant, laid back, dislikes bureaucracy, forgiving, disdainful of politics, freedom lover (hence his dislike of what the Ministry of Magic is doing), and wise.
 Close to Exalted Chaotic Good


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 20, 2005)

I don't see Voldemort as Chaotic Evil.  I see him as more Lawful Evil, but who knows really? (Besides JKR, I mean!)

He doesn't really kill without a purpose.  He kills any who oppose him, or who are beneath him (muggles, mudbloods).  He expects his instructions to be followed to the letter (or he might kill the offender).  Maybe he's Neutral Evil.


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## The Druid Merlin (Aug 20, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> I don't see Voldemort as Chaotic Evil.  I see him as more Lawful Evil, but who knows really? (Besides JKR, I mean!)
> 
> He doesn't really kill without a purpose.  He kills any who oppose him, or who are beneath him (muggles, mudbloods).  He expects his instructions to be followed to the letter (or he might kill the offender).  Maybe he's Neutral Evil.




Lawful Evil in the long run seeks to dominate and control. Does Voldemort seek to dominate and control?

Neutral Evil in the long run seeks to become an unseen parasite. Feeding off of one host untill it dies, then latching an to another. Does Voldemort seek to simply feed off of others?

Chaotic Evil in the long run seeks to bring death and anarchy. Is Voldemort a murderous anarchist?


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 20, 2005)

Voldemort - Neutral Evil.  He can use the system, or he can ignore the system - it's all about power for power's sake.
Dumbledore - Neutral Good.  The establishment is fine, and working through it is fine, as long as it is doing what is right.  If it is not, the establishment needs to be changed.
Percy - True Prat.  (Seriously, Lawful Neutral.)  Nobody betrays his mum and makes her cry as part of his cover.  He's all about law and order for the sake of law and order.

Going back to an earlier topic, _so very glad_ that Neville has finally found his focus, and begun his journey into the Hardcore.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 21, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Does anyone think it's possible that Percy is the working for the Order of the Phoenix--he's basically their "inside man" for what the government is up to?
> 
> Or is he just a prat?!
> 
> I was thinking about all of the other Weasley family members, and he just seems so out of step with them.  Of course, what makes me think that this is not the case is the strained relationship with his parents.  But that could just be part of his "deep cover."




I think it'll be something like Regulus Black. He will at some point realize the errors of his ways, but too late.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 21, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's great!  It got posted a couple of pages back.
> 
> If you get your order in by Sunday, they ship the following Friday.  It takes 5-7 business days to get their items once they ship.




Not to be a spoil sport, but what's amusing at that shirt in the least?
Is it spoiling the book for those that might not know? Was the book really a waste of "4 hours and $30"?

I don't get it.


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## drothgery (Aug 21, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> Does anyone think it's possible that Percy is the working for the Order of the Phoenix--he's basically their "inside man" for what the government is up to?




I thought that initially, but there should have been hints of this in HBP, and there weren't.


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## KenM (Aug 21, 2005)

So, has Voldermort come out and said, "Harry, I am your father" yet?


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 21, 2005)

I believe I remember this thread mentioning the DADA teaching position at Hogwarts, and how there was some sort of error. I don't believe so. A year consists of two terms. I'm fairly sure it was said that no one has lasted more than _three_ terms in that position.

EDIT: I read that part again, and I was mistaken.  Dumbledore says a year, after he shows Harry the memory of himself and Voldemort discussing the job of DADA teacher.  I'm sure I read "three terms" somewhere, though.  Not that it matters - we don't know for a fact that Quirrel taught DADA before Harry's first year.  For all we know, Quirrel might have been introduced at the end of the previous year, as someone Dumbledore had convinced to teach for one year only - like Moody did - was leaving.

Which, if you think about it, is an excellent reason not to allow Snape to teach it, if Dumbledore wanted to keep him around. Snape was clearly only allowed to teach it when Dumbledore knew it would soon be time for him to leave and rejoin the Death Eaters. And so their little plan now has Snape back among their ranks, his cover absolute.


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## The Druid Merlin (Aug 21, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> So, has Voldermort come out and said, "Harry, I am your father" yet?



It's more likely that Harry and Voldemort are disdant cousins. Who knows how many children old Salazar had, or how many Godric Gryphondor had. In other words Harry might be the heir to two Hogwarts founders.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 22, 2005)

DragonMan Ren said:
			
		

> Not that it matters - we don't know for a fact that Quirrel taught DADA before Harry's first year.




Right - it's said that Quirrel left Hogwart's to gain experience.  It's a short leap to guess that he wanted the experience so that he would be qualified to teach DADA.  Presumably he wasn't skilled enough before.  It's never explicitly stated what he teached, but it certainly isn't stated that he was a returning DADA teacher.


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 23, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Not to be a spoil sport, but what's amusing at that shirt in the least?
> Is it spoiling the book for those that might not know? Was the book really a waste of "4 hours and $30"?
> 
> I don't get it.




In today's "hyper secret oh-my-god file a court order so no one spoils the book" society, it's hysterical.  I mean, JFC, they used to keep the freakin' title secret until the book was published.  :rolls eyes:

It's just a book.  But some people seem to forget that.

And if you don't enjoy a book when a plot point is "spoiled" well, then, it's not a very good book to begin with.

P.S.  And, for me, it was more like $16, but that's besides the point.


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 23, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> In today's "hyper secret oh-my-god file a court order so no one spoils the book" society, it's hysterical. I mean, JFC, they used to keep the freakin' title secret until the book was published. :rolls eyes:
> 
> It's just a book. But some people seem to forget that.
> 
> ...




AMEN.

And really, if you don't like spoilers, reading a book a second time must be _completely_ pointless!


----------



## kingpaul (Aug 23, 2005)

I was going back through the book, skimming parts, and noticed something. When Snape and Draco were fleeing near the end, and Harry was trying capture Snape, Snape was still teaching Harry. Something along the lines of Harry needing to keep his mouth shut and his mind closed...stressing the importance of silenced spells and Occulmency (sp?)


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 23, 2005)

DragonMan Ren said:
			
		

> AMEN.
> 
> And really, if you don't like spoilers, reading a book a second time must be _completely_ pointless!



 Absolutely!  My daughter, the family's official HP nut, has read each book (except #6) at least four times, listened to the first four books on CD at least three times each, etc.  Good replay value in this series (at least for her).


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## Barendd Nobeard (Aug 23, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I was going back through the book, skimming parts, and noticed something. When Snape and Draco were fleeing near the end, and Harry was trying capture Snape, Snape was still teaching Harry. Something along the lines of Harry needing to keep his mouth shut and his mind closed...stressing the importance of silenced spells and Occulmency (sp?)



 Excellent observation, kingpaul.  More evidence for the "deep cover" theory.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 24, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> In today's "hyper secret oh-my-god file a court order so no one spoils the book" society, it's hysterical.  I mean, JFC, they used to keep the freakin' title secret until the book was published.  :rolls eyes:
> 
> It's just a book.  But some people seem to forget that.
> 
> And if you don't enjoy a book when a plot point is "spoiled" well, then, it's not a very good book to begin with.




I still don't see how it's funny, but I guess it's just me. It just seems spiteful to spoil someone elses enjoyment, on the idea that you wouldn't enjoy the book less if you were spoiled. I guess it'd be funny also to wander about website's posting plot spoilers about movies and books?

Keeping a title hidden is not about spoilers, it's about building anticipation. The title itself is a teaser, to get folks to get the book as soon as possible and find out the answer.

But, opinions differ, don't want to sidetrack the thread too much.


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## TwistedBishop (Aug 24, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> In today's "hyper secret oh-my-god file a court order so no one spoils the book" society, it's hysterical.
> 
> And if you don't enjoy a book when a plot point is "spoiled" well, then, it's not a very good book to begin with.





It's not hysterical, it's mean-spirited.  Spoiling the dramatic final event in a mystery has no excuse.  Everything else is justification.


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## John Crichton (Aug 24, 2005)

Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> In today's "hyper secret oh-my-god file a court order so no one spoils the book" society, it's hysterical.  I mean, JFC, they used to keep the freakin' title secret until the book was published.  :rolls eyes:



I wouldn't quite say hysterical.  Someone wanting to enjoy a popular novel without having the ending ruined is nothing new nor does it have anything to do with society.  Going out of your way to spoil someone else's good time is, as mentioned, just mean.



			
				Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> It's just a book.  But some people seem to forget that.



If it's just a book then why do you care either way?



			
				Barendd Nobeard said:
			
		

> And if you don't enjoy a book when a plot point is "spoiled" well, then, it's not a very good book to begin with.



Considering how much you've posted in this thread, I take it you dig Harry Potter?  Yes?  How would you have liked it if someone spoiled the ending for you?  I know that I wouldn't have liked it very much as it would have revealed the most dramatic part of a very entertaining read.  There's too much pain in the world for people to go around trying to limit the fun of others.


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 24, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I wouldn't quite say hysterical. Someone wanting to enjoy a popular novel without having the ending ruined is nothing new nor does it have anything to do with society. Going out of your way to spoil someone else's good time is, as mentioned, just mean.
> 
> If it's just a book then why do you care either way?
> 
> Considering how much you've posted in this thread, I take it you dig Harry Potter? Yes? How would you have liked it if someone spoiled the ending for you? I know that I wouldn't have liked it very much as it would have revealed the most dramatic part of a very entertaining read. There's too much pain in the world for people to go around trying to limit the fun of others.




I, personally, didn't even start reading the series until the ending of HBP was long spoiled for me, and I can honestly say that it didn't detract from my enjoyment in the slightest.  Then, I read the whole series again, and I already knew the ending for all six books - and they were _still good._

Spoilers interest me, and highten my anticipation, while blunting my impatience and desire to have the thing _over with_ already, just so I can find out what, exactly, happens.  I can honestly say that I'd never have read the series without constant exposure to spoilers.

People who freak out about spoilers are among the most ridiculous people alive, in my opinion.  It's self-indulgent and silly, and really has no logic to it.  A good book, movie, or whatever is _still_ just as good if you know what the ending is.  If you can't enjoy the rest of the experience just because you know what happens later, you really need to learn to concentrate.


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## John Crichton (Aug 24, 2005)

DragonMan Ren said:
			
		

> I, personally, didn't even start reading the series until the ending of HBP was long spoiled for me, and I can honestly say that it didn't detract from my enjoyment in the slightest. Then, I read the whole series again, and I already knew the ending for all six books - and they were _still good._
> 
> Spoilers interest me, and highten my anticipation, while blunting my impatience and desire to have the thing _over with_ already, just so I can find out what, exactly, happens. I can honestly say that I'd never have read the series without constant exposure to spoilers.
> 
> People who freak out about spoilers are among the most ridiculous people alive, in my opinion. It's self-indulgent and silly, and really has no logic to it. A good book, movie, or whatever is _still_ just as good if you know what the ending is. If you can't enjoy the rest of the experience just because you know what happens later, you really need to learn to concentrate.



I can appreciate everything you just said. And I respect it. Being someone who *doesn't* want to be spoiled I always ask the same respect from others. It's all about being able to choose. Actively promoting to remove that choice is simply wrong, mean and disrespectful.

So, being one of your self-indulgent and silly types (as I often am) the experience of whatever media I happen to be experiencing at the moment is all about the journey and the discovery. I like having my own reaction to something as it happens without foreknowledge of the plot.  Yes, a work of entertainment can certainly be enjoyed a second time around or even when spoiled (which removes the first time around entirely). But that doesn't mean it must be so. There is a reason there are spoiler warnings - to preserve that respect and give folks a choice.

And as for "just as good" when something is spoiled for me I'll just flatly disagree with you. But that's just my opinion. No big deal there.


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## WizarDru (Aug 24, 2005)

TwistedBishop said:
			
		

> It's not hysterical, it's mean-spirited. Spoiling the dramatic final event in a mystery has no excuse. Everything else is justification.




Agreed.  I would have appreciated not having the event revealed to me before I actually read it...but someone posted the graphic in a location completely unrelated to the book.  It should have additional text on the back: "_I derive my enjoyment from depriving others of theirs.  Yes, I am something of a Jerk._"



			
				Dragonman Ren said:
			
		

> Spoilers interest me, and highten my anticipation, while blunting my impatience and desire to have the thing _over with_ already, just so I can find out what, exactly, happens. I can honestly say that I'd never have read the series without constant exposure to spoilers.



It sounds more like you considered it something to be _endured_ rather than _enjoyed_.


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## billd91 (Aug 24, 2005)

I usually try to keep spoilers to myself until a reasonable time after the work has been out in the public. Then, I figure all bets are off and I've upheld common courtesy enough. 
There comes a time when what are now considered spoilers have to be appropriate fodder for cultural literacy... like the "I'm your father" bit from Empire Strikes Back. At that point, it's the responsibility of the person who doesn't was the journey "spoiled" to avoid their own exposure to them and no longer mine. 
I think a year is certainly long enough to wait before dropping spoilers.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 24, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Considering how much you've posted in this thread, I take it you dig Harry Potter?  Yes?  How would you have liked it if someone spoiled the ending for you?  I know that I wouldn't have liked it very much as it would have revealed the most dramatic part of a very entertaining read.  There's too much pain in the world for people to go around trying to limit the fun of others.




I knew the "secrets" the Half-Blood Prince book before I started reading it - both who the half-blood prince was, and who got killed and by whom (and pretty much under what circumstances). It didn't spoil the book for me at all, any more than knowing that only Chris, Vin, and Chico survive when I'm watching the _Magnificent Seven_.


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## Kid Charlemagne (Aug 24, 2005)

I can enjoy a book that I know the ending to.  But If I saw someone with that shirt, especially just after the book came out, I would punk them out to their face.  And if I learned that they'd been punched in the nose, I wouldn't feel an ounce of sympathy.  I managed to keep away from spoilers on this book - mostly by reading it through by Tuesday of the week after it came out and by not reading any articles leading up to it for several weeks.


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## mojo1701 (Aug 24, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I knew the "secrets" the Half-Blood Prince book before I started reading it - both who the half-blood prince was, and who got killed and by whom (and pretty much under what circumstances). It didn't spoil the book for me at all, any more than knowing that only Chris, Vin, and Chico survive when I'm watching the _Magnificent Seven_.




Same here, though, without the "Magnificent Seven" reference. For me, I knew that Darth Vader was Luke's 



Spoiler



father


 before I even saw any of the movies (my first of which was "The Phantom Menace").


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## nonamazing (Aug 24, 2005)

There are a lot of neat theories and ideas popping up all over this thread.  If no one minds, I'd like to put in my two cents in regards to a few of these things.

First of all, I strongly suspect that Harry is going to die in the final book.  There's a lot of good arguments both for and against this idea, and I can't really say anything with certainty, but that's the way it feels to me.  It makes sense if you interpret the prophecy to mean that neither can live while the other survives (possibly meaning that both must die).  If Harry does die, however, he will sacrifice himself out of love, as love is the only power/force that is greater than Voldemort.  (This may be a bit outlandish, but Harry may even have to go so far as to understand and forgive Voldemort in order to defeat him).

There are also a lot of people discussing both sides of the 'Harry as Horcrux' theory.  I'm not sure either way, but a lot of people arguing against it have said that Voldemort wouldn't be trying to kill Harry if Harry was a Horcrux.  But why not?  There's no indication that destroying a Horcrux destroys the piece of soul remaining in it (in fact, if that were the case, I don't think Dumbledore would be so willing to destroy the other Horcruxes--destroying even a fragment of a soul seems kind of evil).  Doesn't Dumbledore say at one point that a soul can't actually be destroyed?

Maybe when the Horcruxes are destroyed, that 'chunk' of soul is sent back to Voldemort?  And maybe that's Dumbledore's real reason for trying to destroy the Horcruxes--to fix Voldemort's shattered soul and offer him a chance at redemption (after all, Dumbledore is pretty big on the whole second chances thing--and with Harry and Voldemort's souls connected, maybe Dumbledore figures Voldemort will pick up some goodness and love from Harry).  But some of that is pretty extreme speculation, and I'm not too sure about it.  It seems maybe a little too sentimental and schmaltzy to be true.  I don't know.

I don't doubt that Dumbledore's presence will be felt in the final book, but I also don't think he'll be coming back to life.  I suspect that Harry will find some memories that Dumbledore left in the Pensieve for him (and recovering those memories would provide a good motivation for Harry to return to the school).


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## mojo1701 (Aug 24, 2005)

I haven't read this entire thread, so I apologize in advance if this theory has been placed, but:

My theory on Dumbledore's death is that it was an Obi-Wan Kenobi death, in which he sacrificed himself so that the Order of the Phoenix can have knowledge on Voldemort. Dumbledore knew that he doesn't have much left to give to the world (so to speak), so he feels that a death like this will win in the end.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 24, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I knew the "secrets" the Half-Blood Prince book before I started reading it - both who the half-blood prince was, and who got killed and by whom (and pretty much under what circumstances). It didn't spoil the book for me at all, any more than knowing that only Chris, Vin, and Chico survive when I'm watching the _Magnificent Seven_.




I knew who the HBP was, and Who Died when I started. I don't think the Death mattered, given he's been pretty much foretold since Book1 as dead. ("we're safe as long as he's here!") I do think knowing who the HBP is, detracted from the book for me though.

That aside, the shirt is pure spite towards folks that want to enjoy the book their way, IMO. I would never wear a shirt like that, simply to ruin a book for other people, and I'm widely regarded as a soulless bastard. 

But, removing all that, how is it FUNNY? That's what I don't see. It seems funny in the sense of tripping some lady holding her son's Birthday cake, then laughing at her. Except not that clever.


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## Storm Raven (Aug 24, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> I knew who the HBP was, and Who Died when I started. I don't think the Death mattered, given he's been pretty much foretold since Book1 as dead. ("we're safe as long as he's here!") I do think knowing who the HBP is, detracted from the book for me though.




I found that the entire half-blood prince plot was pointless and boring. I knew who he was, but that's not what made it boring. What made it boring was that finding the identity of the half-blood prince appears to have been of no consequence whatsoever to anything of any importance.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 24, 2005)

I am reminded of the gag on the rerun of David Letterman I saw last night.  It dated from before the latest HP book was released and they had a spoiler moment where they released a spoiler about the book.   The spoiler?  The book's ISBN number.


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## Lobo Lurker (Aug 24, 2005)

I figured out early on that the Half-Blood Prince was Snape (tiny cramped handwriting... anyone remember Snape's memory of that OWL or NEWT test that Harry experienced?).

I also can't see Snape as being bad all along... it just feels like too much of a cop out, too simple. 

I'll have to chck this when I get home, but doesn't Snape remember Lily fondly? I too think that he wanted James dead but was mortified to find out that Lily had died too. Therefore, Snape doesn't hate Harry for his father's actions, but because Snape has somehow convinced himself that it's Harry's fault that Lily died.

I CAN see Harry learning to sympathize with Draco. After all, Draco's doing what he's doing to save his family. Harry's lost his family and I doubt he'd want to inflict that pain on his worst enemy (which, arguably, Draco is). I can see them teaming up in the end despite thier mutual dislike for one another.

As far as Hogwart's future goes, I think that McGonagal will be Headmistriss, Slughorn will be Slytherin head and either potions or DADA teacher... though I can see the Ministry of Magic stepping in and appointing an Auror to do this as well.

But, in all honesty, I don't think Harry, Ron, & Hermione will be doing much at Hogwarts in the next book, though Hogwarts will undoubtedly figure prominantly into the book somehow.

And yes, I think JKR made a mistake with the House Elves apparating (didn't Dobby do that in the 2nd book though?)


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 24, 2005)

Lobo Lurker said:
			
		

> I'll have to chck this when I get home, but doesn't Snape remember Lily fondly? I too think that he wanted James dead but was mortified to find out that Lily had died too. Therefore, Snape doesn't hate Harry for his father's actions, but because Snape has somehow convinced himself that it's Harry's fault that Lily died.



The timing for it is off though, assuming we've heard the truth. Dumbledore testified that Snape had been providing the Order info before the fall of Voldemort. Lily died the night Voldemort fell. So, I can't see Lily's death being the cause of Snape's betrayel.
Of course, it seems that BOTH Voldemort and Dumbledore KNEW that Snape was completely loyal to their side only. Someone has to be wrong, don't they?

I think Snape dispises Harry because he is identical to James. James made Snape feel weak, and now that he's stronger, he wants to make sure he never feels weak again. The fact he folows Dumbledore and/or Voldemort the way he does makes that a bit odd, so maybe Snape is only in it to become his own man. He's killed Dumbledore, now he just needs to kill Voldemort, and he's Free!



> I CAN see Harry learning to sympathize with Draco. After all, Draco's doing what he's doing to save his family. Harry's lost his family and I doubt he'd want to inflict that pain on his worst enemy (which, arguably, Draco is). I can see them teaming up in the end despite thier mutual dislike for one another.



I can see Harry not wanting Draco dead, but that's about the extent of his sympathy really.



> As far as Hogwart's future goes, I think that McGonagal will be Headmistriss, Slughorn will be Slytherin head and either potions or DADA teacher... though I can see the Ministry of Magic stepping in and appointing an Auror to do this as well.
> 
> But, in all honesty, I don't think Harry, Ron, & Hermione will be doing much at Hogwarts in the next book, though Hogwarts will undoubtedly figure prominantly into the book somehow.



I'm of the mind that the books formula is part of their success, so I hope they're at an open Hogwarts for a good portion of the book, but it'll make the Horcrux Hunt a bit odd. I'm still pretty sure one of the Horcrux is a Ravenclaw item at Hogwarts, but who knows? Rowling herself might not have even decided yet.



> And yes, I think JKR made a mistake with the House Elves apparating (didn't Dobby do that in the 2nd book though?)



Yeah, he teleported quite a bit. Maybe natural powers are psionics, and she's not using the Psionics Transparency Rule?

It's not like the HP World is that greatly thought out anyway. You can kill people with Abra Cadabra after all!


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 24, 2005)

Storm Raven said:
			
		

> I found that the entire half-blood prince plot was pointless and boring. I knew who he was, but that's not what made it boring. What made it boring was that finding the identity of the half-blood prince appears to have been of no consequence whatsoever to anything of any importance.



Well, I should have said that knowing who the HBD detracted from my reading of the book in an unknown way. I can't unremember who it is before I read, so some elements of the book are read differently, but there's no way for me to know how the revelation would have been (for me) since I already knew.
It seemed very sudden to me, the revelation. He just kind of yells it out, without much reason to.

That said, the titles aren't all central to the book. The Philosophers Stone is an item in the story, as is the Goblet of Fire, but neither is really central IMO. Prisoner of Azkaban and Order of the Phoenix are more central, but again they're nothing revealing. Chamber of Secrets as well. HBP is important because of Snapes role in the book, but it's not central, no. I'd say it's more central than Goblet of Fire was to HP4 though.

Besides, it's not hard to imagine why she chose it over "Harry Potter and Dumbledore DIES!", the cover could have been a big tombstone for Dumbledore!


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## Hijinks (Aug 24, 2005)

> Quote:
> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">And yes, I think JKR made a mistake with the House Elves apparating (didn't Dobby do that in the 2nd book though?) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> 
> Yeah, he teleported quite a bit. Maybe natural powers are psionics, and she's not using the Psionics Transparency Rule?



I am 95% sure I recall a conversation between Ron and Hermoine where Ron asked about the house elves disapparating, and Hermoine saying they were an exception because they're not using magic, but a natural ability.  If I had ambition, I'd go back and try to find the passage, but I ... don't.


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## WizarDru (Aug 24, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Yeah, he teleported quite a bit. Maybe natural powers are psionics, and she's not using the Psionics Transparency Rule?




From the alt.Harry_potter FAQ:

_"It is clear that Dobby and Fawkes do teleport within the castle, but since we have some very           firm statements claiming that Apparating is impossible, the question then is whether what they are doing is Apparating           or some other kind of teleportative magic, or in other words: is it correct that they can't Apparate or Disapparate            inside Hogwarts, or is it not correct?

           The answer to this obviously depend to some degree on how you read the books; it has at times been            debated heatedly in AFH-P where some hold that if it looks and sounds like Apparating, then it must be           Apparating. Against this is held that it is extremely unlikely that both Hermione (who is, according to Rowling           herself, normally very reliable when citing information from her books           [1]) and Snape should be wrong. The majority of the posters in AFH-P           does seem to think that house-elves (and by extension, Phoenixes) are exceptions from the Apparition ban at Hogwarts;            either because they are specifically exempted from the protection, or because what they are doing isn't Apparating           [<cite>AFH-P 030721</cite>]           [<cite>AFH-P 030218</cite>]. In the latter case it is usually argued that Disapparating/Apparating specifically is the wizard spell or ability, while other kinds of magical teleportation is called by other names (Portkeying, Floo-travelling etc.) [<cite>AFH-P 030822</cite>]           [<cite>AFH-P 030819</cite>]           [<cite>AFH-P 010521</cite>]           [<cite>AFH-P 000715</cite>]           [<cite>AFH-P SDATE</cite>].

           The question of Dobby's teleportations also came up in an on-line chat with World Book Day on March 4,            2004[<cite>WBD-17</cite>]:

           <table style="margin-bottom: 0em; margin-top: 0em;" class="noborder" align="center" cellpadding="3" width="65%">            <tbody><tr><td class="noborder" valign="top">*Question (Rorujin):*

</td>                <td class="noborder" valign="top"><q>How is Dobby able to Apparate inside Hogwarts if no one else can?</q>

</td></tr>            <tr><td class="noborder" valign="top">*Answer:*

</td>                <td class="noborder" valign="top"><q>He's a house-elf, they've got powers wizards haven't got (but wizards have also got powers that house-elves haven't).</q>

</td></tr>            </tbody></table>            The implication is here clearly that the power (or ability) of the house-elves is different from that of the wizards whether we call them both Apparating or not. While Rowling did not actually correct Rorujin's use of "Apparate" for Dobby, she does point out he (and other house-elves) is using a power which "wizards haven't got" — and as wizards very clearly has the power to Apparate ...

           While the above isn't definite with regards to the linguistic side of the argument (whether house-elf            teleportation is really called "Apparating"), it is quite clear that whatever it is called, the power is different            from wizardly Apparating and that it is this difference which allows house-elves to teleport within Hogwarts."

_


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## billd91 (Aug 24, 2005)

Hijinks said:
			
		

> I am 95% sure I recall a conversation between Ron and Hermoine where Ron asked about the house elves disapparating, and Hermoine saying they were an exception because they're not using magic, but a natural ability.  If I had ambition, I'd go back and try to find the passage, but I ... don't.




And even if there isn't something on that in the books, how surprising would it be for the people who put the anti-apparating wards around Hogwarts to have overlooked house elves? It's not like the wizarding community looks on them as much more than servants, certainly not a threat by any stretch of the imagination.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 24, 2005)

billd91 said:
			
		

> And even if there isn't something on that in the books, how surprising would it be for the people who put the anti-apparating wards around Hogwarts to have overlooked house elves? It's not like the wizarding community looks on them as much more than servants, certainly not a threat by any stretch of the imagination.




It's kind of funny, given that even the fire in the common room of their tower is hooked up to the Floo network.  Before late HP5, any of them could be sneaking in and out at will via the fire. (in theory)


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## mojo1701 (Aug 25, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> I am reminded of the gag on the rerun of David Letterman I saw last night.  It dated from before the latest HP book was released and they had a spoiler moment where they released a spoiler about the book.   The spoiler?  The book's ISBN number.




Also one on "The Daily Show" with Rob Corddry going to a book store, impersonating J.K. Rowling a few times:

Rob: Yes, I'm J.K. Rowe-ling. I'd like to autograph some copies of my book.
Clerk: Ummm... it's J.K. _Rowling_, and _she_'s a woman.

and later:

Rob (dressed up as a woman, with a falsetto voice): Hello, I'm J.K. Rowling, and I'd like to see some copies of my book.
Clerk: Ummm... She has a British accent...

He was also trying to point out that almost ANYONE can go into a book store, pick up a book, read it, and spoil it for people (and did so). And changed the camera angles as he dramatically stated that "It... could... happen... here."


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## John Crichton (Aug 25, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> It's kind of funny, given that even the fire in the common room of their tower is hooked up to the Floo network.  Before late HP5, any of them could be sneaking in and out at will via the fire. (in theory)



 I don't think that the floo network is hooked into Howarts, that's why Malfoy needed to find another way in.  And even before all the extra defenses were put up there isn't any evidence that proves any part of Hogwarts is accessable by the network.


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## kingpaul (Aug 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I don't think that the floo network is hooked into Howarts, that's why Malfoy needed to find another way in.  And even before all the extra defenses were put up there isn't any evidence that proves any part of Hogwarts is accessable by the network.



Yes there is. Sirius was able to poke his head in the Griffindor common room and talk to Harry.


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## John Crichton (Aug 25, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> Yes there is. Sirius was able to poke his head in the Griffindor common room and talk to Harry.



 Hmm, yes.  Actually, now that I think of it - they were able to use the one in Umbridge's and Snape's Offices as well.  I keep thinking of them as just for transportation rather than communication devices as well.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> Hmm, yes.  Actually, now that I think of it - they were able to use the one in Umbridge's and Snape's Offices as well.  I keep thinking of them as just for transportation rather than communication devices as well.




Right, I'm in the middle of HP5, Sirius just poked his head through. They do later come through McGonnagal's in HP6, IIRC, but it's a one time connection at that time. (since by then the Floo network is controlled)


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## TanisFrey (Aug 25, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Right, I'm in the middle of HP5, Sirius just poked his head through. They do later come through McGonnagal's in HP6, IIRC, but it's a one time connection at that time. (since by then the Floo network is controlled)



I beleive that it was connected before the summer between 5 and 6.  They were disconected as part of the security argments.  The McGonnagal's office scean tells you this in an obtuse fation.


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## David Howery (Aug 25, 2005)

concerning the RAB mystery... my niece thinks it's Amelia Bones, with Amelia being her middle name and R. the first name she never uses... how about that theory?
Anyone notice Snape has a beard in the illustrations in this book?  When did that happen?


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## John Crichton (Aug 25, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Right, I'm in the middle of HP5, Sirius just poked his head through. They do later come through McGonnagal's in HP6, IIRC, but it's a one time connection at that time. (since by then the Floo network is controlled)





I'm going to blame my lack of knowledge on my being VERY new to the Harry Potter universe.  Started the first book about 6 weeks ago...


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 25, 2005)

House Elves

My theory - not very original, as someone else suggested it here too - is that the Apparition ban at Hogwarts covers _spells_, as cast by _wizards_.  House Elves cast no spells.  Their Apparition is an innate magical ability.  In DnD terms, House Elves would have (Su) Teleport Without Error in their description.  Wizards, on the other hand, have the spell on their list, which is much different.

R.A.B.

Amelia Bones...  If I recall correctly, she oversaw Harry's trial.  Thus, she was not dead.  The locket that Harry recovered mentioned that R.A.B. knew that death was coming, and pretty quickly, too.  Also, it can be assumed that R.A.B. had Death Eater connections, due to his knowledge of Voldemort, and because non-Death Eaters or sympathizers don't tend to refer to him as the Dark Lord very much.  So, I'm fairly sure R.A.B. is someone who betrayed the Death Eaters.  I hadn't thought of it myself, but my own niece's theory is that Regulus (A.) Black is the one responsible - again, something already brought up here.

Snape

There are AMPLE reasons provided already, strongly implying, if not proving, that Snape is one of the Good Guys.

Floo

The Floo Network can be connected, disconnected, monitored, and otherwise controlled.  I think it's safe to say that a massive invasion of Death Eaters going to Hogwarts via Floo would be intercepted, and probably not in a very pleasant way, even if it was connected.

Harry at Hogwarts

I'm fairly sure that Hogwarts will play a much bigger role in the seventh book than Harry suspects now, at the end of HBP.  Not only does he lack the knowledge to begin hunting for Horcruxes on his own, but I remember the description of the series that I read, ages ago:  the Harry Potter series shall consist of seven books, _one for each year at Hogwarts._  Besides, abandoning it now will have the seventh book resemble the first six even less than it will already - even assuming he goes, he won't have the traditional antagonistic from Draco on the Express, the glaring of Snape and the speechmaking of Dumbledore at the first dinner, etc., etc.  It won't be Harry Potter if he does as he plans at the end of HBP - the book would not be recognizeable as part of the series.  Already, I'm dreading the mopey beginning of the final book.  (Also, if the school year at Hogwarts was unimportant, why would the series be limited to seven?  Why not ten?  A dozen?  The remnant of Harry's battle against the Dark Lord seems like it could be stretched out to an awful lot more time and money, were they so inclined.)


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## billd91 (Aug 25, 2005)

DragonMan Ren said:
			
		

> Harry at Hogwarts
> 
> I'm fairly sure that Hogwarts will play a much bigger role in the seventh book than Harry suspects now, at the end of HBP.  Not only does he lack the knowledge to begin hunting for Horcruxes on his own, but I remember the description of the series that I read, ages ago:  the Harry Potter series shall consist of seven books, _one for each year at Hogwarts._  Besides, abandoning it now will have the seventh book resemble the first six even less than it will already - even assuming he goes, he won't have the traditional antagonistic from Draco on the Express, the glaring of Snape and the speechmaking of Dumbledore at the first dinner, etc., etc.  It won't be Harry Potter if he does as he plans at the end of HBP - the book would not be recognizeable as part of the series.  Already, I'm dreading the mopey beginning of the final book.  (Also, if the school year at Hogwarts was unimportant, why would the series be limited to seven?  Why not ten?  A dozen?  The remnant of Harry's battle against the Dark Lord seems like it could be stretched out to an awful lot more time and money, were they so inclined.)




I suspect part of the opening of Book 7 will include some debate between Harry, Hermione, and Ron about going back to Hogwarts. Ron's parents will probably push them toward it at Bill and Fleur's wedding at the very least.
But I think there will be differences anyway. I can't imagine seeing Draco appear at Hogwarts since he has outed himself as a Death Eater. He'll be on the lam with the rest of them. Harry/Slytherin hostility would have to be confined to Crabbe and Goyle.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 25, 2005)

John Crichton said:
			
		

> I'm going to blame my lack of knowledge on my being VERY new to the Harry Potter universe.  Started the first book about 6 weeks ago...




Me too, so HA! 

Someone lent me 1-6. It's more a matter of me rereading a particular part when discussion turned that way.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 25, 2005)

DragonMan Ren said:
			
		

> (Also, if the school year at Hogwarts was unimportant, why would the series be limited to seven?  Why not ten?  A dozen?  The remnant of Harry's battle against the Dark Lord seems like it could be stretched out to an awful lot more time and money, were they so inclined.)



My completely groundless theory is that Dumbledore has just been reborn like a phoenix -- as a baby.  The next series will be about reborn-Dumbledore's years at Hogwarts with a new antagonist -- possibly a reborn Voldemort.  Harry has a role as the head of Griffendor and the DADA teacher...


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## kingpaul (Aug 25, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> The next series



I thought Rowling has gone on record saying she's not writing anymore books in the Potter-verse


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## DragonMan Ren (Aug 25, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Me too, so HA!
> 
> Someone lent me 1-6. It's more a matter of me rereading a particular part when discussion turned that way.




I conned my mother into buying me books 1-5 about three weeks ago.  Bought number 6 myself.   

And yes, Billd91, that was my point.  The whole series has been sort of formulaic, up to this point.  Several large parts of that formula was written out of their previous places in book six.  I think it will be crucial to retain as many familiar elements as absolutely possible in book seven, as it still needs to _feel_ like a Harry Potter book.


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## MaxKaladin (Aug 26, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I thought Rowling has gone on record saying she's not writing anymore books in the Potter-verse



Could be.  I'm not exactly up on everything in the "Potterverse".  I thought I'd heard that she didn't intend to write more books about Harry once she finished these books, but I may be misremembering that.  I think it might have been something about exploring other parts of the Potterverse (or whatever it's called).  I can't remember.  I really just remember having the impression that she might write more after the current series but the books wouldn't focus on Harry.


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## Vocenoctum (Aug 26, 2005)

MaxKaladin said:
			
		

> Could be.  I'm not exactly up on everything in the "Potterverse".  I thought I'd heard that she didn't intend to write more books about Harry once she finished these books, but I may be misremembering that.  I think it might have been something about exploring other parts of the Potterverse (or whatever it's called).  I can't remember.  I really just remember having the impression that she might write more after the current series but the books wouldn't focus on Harry.




From what I've read, she doesn't plan to touch the HP World next. I'm not sure, but it might be over on mugglenet.com somewhere.


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## John Crichton (Aug 26, 2005)

Vocenoctum said:
			
		

> Me too, so HA!
> 
> Someone lent me 1-6. It's more a matter of me rereading a particular part when discussion turned that way.



 Yeah, my sister lent me 1-5 and then bought me 6 cuz I liked them so much.


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## John Crichton (Aug 26, 2005)

kingpaul said:
			
		

> I thought Rowling has gone on record saying she's not writing anymore books in the Potter-verse



 I've heard the same from many fans.  These 7 books are It, with a capital 'I'.  She's already plotted out the 7th book and written the last chapter (done years ago).  There is a very obvious mythology being formed from the very first book which is why some universities study the series as a look at modern mythology and narrative.


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