# (EPIC) Out of Character I



## Creamsteak (Dec 12, 2002)

The game hasn't started yet, and 10 players have been selected. Character creation has began. The Index is being added. The standards are being set.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 12, 2002)

I'm going to generally allow all WotC books, all Monty Material,  and most things by Natural D20. Dragon is hit-and-miss, I'll tell you that right now. I'll deal with magazines and such on a more case by case basis. Books I'll deal with on a publisher level. What other publishers do the players desire to have access to?


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 12, 2002)

Cream, what ECL you count a Troll?


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## Creamsteak (Dec 12, 2002)

Currently my plan is to go flat DMG with ECL until Savage Species is in my hands. Then I plan on following the guidelines in that book, if they are what I hope they will be. That makes it ECL +8, though that may be too costly for most characters to play a troll.


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## reapersaurus (Dec 12, 2002)

Four Color to Fantasy?  
That's Natural d20 Press...

edit: cs - I hope that you would not deny the Leadership feat if I wanted to make an Epic human Paladin, would you?
It's one of the few character ideas that interests me....

The Leadership  feat IS required to summon a dragon mount, right? You can't just take it with a normal bonded mount as you level up (from DotF).


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 12, 2002)

*shrug*...

Hmm what to play what to play...


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## garyh (Dec 12, 2002)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Four Color to Fantasy?
> That's Natural d20 Press... *




Oh no...


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## Creamsteak (Dec 13, 2002)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Four Color to Fantasy?
> That's Natural d20 Press... *



That's my Natural d20 Press enemy. I really love some of the other works that I've seen glimpses of, but that particular piece doesn't seem right to me. I think it has good concept/implementation, but there has to be a better way to go about it. I was considering allowing characters to purchase abilities with money, but I'm not to confident on my ability to make an adequate rule without specifically setting a day or two to come up with it.


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## reapersaurus (Dec 13, 2002)

hmm..  so I'm unclear whether you'll allow it in limited capacity, or what?
I totally understand not using it, and it would probably make my creation process easier..

see my previous post for an edited question re: paladins ....

edit: cs - You're first post sounds like a Cake song to me, if anyone knows them.


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 13, 2002)

Cream feel like a chat over at #IR on chat.psionics.net mIRC or anyone else?

Feeling lonely there


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## Creamsteak (Dec 13, 2002)

> hmm.. so I'm unclear whether you'll allow it in limited capacity, or what?
> I totally understand not using it, and it would probably make my creation process easier..
> 
> see my previous post for an edited question re: paladins ....



There will be no Four Colors to Fantasy. I havn't had enough touch time with it to learn to accomodate it, and I find it a tad difficult on my head. I think it's great for running a game that is dependant on it, but not so great when you have a mix.



> cs - I hope that you would not deny the Leadership feat if I wanted to make an Epic human Paladin, would you?
> It's one of the few character ideas that interests me....
> 
> The Leadership feat IS required to summon a dragon mount, right? You can't just take it with a normal bonded mount as you level up (from DotF).




I don't mind a character taking the feat as a pre-requisite for a prestige class. That is an exception I am willing to make, however, I'm not allowing a cohort of any kind. A Paladin's mount is fine, as would a black-guard's critter or sorcerer's familiar. If you are refering to taking a Dragon Mount for a Paladin with leadership, the answer is no. If your refering to a Dragon Mount as part of a PrC, that might be alright... I'll tell you before-hand that a good deal of this adventure will take place in a traditional dungeon and a dragon might not be able to move through it without being polymorphed into a smaller form.


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## Lichtenhart (Dec 13, 2002)

With my luck, I'm obviously not here when somthing interesting happens, like the recruitment for this game. 

Please, whenever there's a little opening, let me know.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 13, 2002)

Your first on my list to fill in for the first dead PC.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 13, 2002)

> *Oringinally posted by Creamsteak*
> There will be no Four Colors to Fantasy. I havn't had enough touch time with it to learn to accomodate it, and I find it a tad difficult on my head. I think it's great for running a game that is dependant on it, but not so great when you have a mix.




Dang, was doubtful you would allow it, but hopeful...oh well...

*Sighs*  Reaper, you're not going to play *another* shield smack-down char, are you? 

Edit-Relics and Rituals I/II?


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## DM_Matt (Dec 13, 2002)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *
> 
> edit: cs - You're first post sounds like a Cake song to me, if anyone knows them.   *




Of all the pepople to find to be a Cake fan.....

You're right...which one is it the most like?  Comfort Eagle?


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## Creamsteak (Dec 13, 2002)

> Relics and Rituals I/II?



Is anyone else for adding Sword and Sorcerery's books of stuff to the list?


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 13, 2002)

Oh, and Divine Ranks at ECL or impossible


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## Creamsteak (Dec 13, 2002)

Not possible, the ability score bonus makes up for the ECL difference, and the abilities out-weigh that particular scenerio. No Dieties or Psuedonatural Paragons in this game.


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## GoldenEagle (Dec 13, 2002)

I think I will play a Ranger 1/ Rogue 19 or Rogue 20.  Moving toward Perfect Wight.

What is everyone else thinking of?


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## Jemal (Dec 13, 2002)

How about Sword and Fist, or Quintessential Fighter from Mongoose Publishing?

I created my character using those books, and if they're ok, I'll post the character.

Oh, btw, I'm playing big-brawny fighter guy.


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 13, 2002)

me detests R&R books... those are like improved munchkin Magic of Fearuns...

But who am I  

And Cream I *do* need a little ruling on wether it is possible or not to teleport or planeshift or whatever out of that dungeon...


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## reapersaurus (Dec 13, 2002)

DM_Matt said:
			
		

> *You're right...which one is it the most like?  Comfort Eagle? *



That's exactly the song that came to mind when reading his first post.  
http://cake82.tripod.com/lyrics/comforteagle.htm

Sollir - no, I have my fill currently with playing my Shield-Smacker, in a couple different (OK, few different) iterations and levels and purposes.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 14, 2002)

I keep getting strange questions and such...

I've already stated the books I'm allowing without a doubt:

Wizards + Monte Cook 
Minus Campaign Setting Specific Materials (Forgotten Realms, etc.)

And I have a certain consideration for natural d20, but as of yet no other books have been accepted. I havn't even cleared buzzard's feat selection yet, as I want more information on the book used.

And TFO, I updated the rogues Gallery. Transmutation [Teleportation] is on the banned list for this scenerio.


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## buzzard (Dec 14, 2002)

I suppose I should ask if my guy is OK. I used a couple of AEG feats without asking approval. If they are unacceptable, I can switch them out. 

buzzard


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## DM_Matt (Dec 14, 2002)

Yay, finally done with finals....I need to find a chacracter that I was working on before and adapt it...it was a cool concept...Its on a friend's computer...he'll email it to me soon....

One PRC max?  darn....


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## Creamsteak (Dec 14, 2002)

Well only one PRC to start. You can take a different one for your 21st level, 22nd level, and so on.


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 16, 2002)

Euhm the Psion [Nomad] forgot his/her screen name has 3 level 9 powers. But that isn't possible since 2 is max and additional knowledge of powers can only be brought in by use of feats or by use of the power Psychic surgery, but that requires the use of 27000 xp per additional level 9 power...

So that should not be correct.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 16, 2002)

Thanx TFO. I hadn't gone to examine any characters yet, but it's good of you to point that out.


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## Keia (Dec 17, 2002)

I might have missed this somewhere, but were we supposed to post the characters to the Rogues Gallery post you set up, e-mail them to you for review and approval, or something else.

I am still in process of creating the character, but I wanted to be sure before I completed it.

I also clarified the psionic powers and noted the source and page to help you in your review.

Thanks for running this game, I am looking forward to it.

Keia


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## Creamsteak (Dec 17, 2002)

I think both Festy and Jarval have started rogue's galleries for the players.


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## Jeremy (Dec 17, 2002)

Keia?  On your character post you've got "Feats: Psionics Prodigy".  I'm not familiar with that feat, though I see the Spellcasting Prodigy link.  Where is that feat found?


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 17, 2002)

PsiHB or Mind's Eye.


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## Dalamar (Dec 17, 2002)

I think it's a direct translation of Spellcasting Prodigy. Considering that wizzies and sorcs got all the nice meta feats that first appeared in PsiHB and everything else too.


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## Tordek (Dec 17, 2002)

> Gloves Dexterity +8 64000




From goldeneagle.

What did I miss that made that possible? It's supposed to be +6. 6+ like +7 and +8 is an epic enchantment and I believe we don't have excess to that... and certainly not at that price. Every +1 above +6 is the normal price times 10.


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## Dalamar (Dec 17, 2002)

Hey creamy, I think the question got lost somewhere, but is Elements of Magic allowed? I know it's partly allowed when you said you allow must stuff from Nat20, but wanting to make sure.


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## Jeremy (Dec 17, 2002)

I just finished doing a compilation of mind's eye stuff and didn't see it, and I'm positive it's not in the Psi HB.

It's only 1 to the DC's, and as my current projection for psionic DC's hits 52, 53 isn't going to matter much against average high 20th level saves of +25 (much less against low saves of +15).

But still curious, one more point makes it feel that much more complete.

Telepath, Seer, or Shaper 6/Shadow Mind (Mind's Eye)9/Arch Psion (Mind's Eye)5.

Psi1: Psionics Prodigy (House Rule?), Conjunctive Mind (Mind's Eye)
Psi3: Fortify Power (Mind's Eye)
Psi5: Overpower (Mind's Eye)
Psi6: Transcend Limits (If Thoughts Could Kill)

Knowledge Psionics 9, Psicraft 9

Psi6,SM3: Psionic Focus - Telepathy, Subpsionics +2
Psi6,SM6: Psionic Focus - Metacreativity, Subpsionics +3
Psi6,SM9: Skill Focus - Psicraft, Subpsionics +4

Knowledge Psionics 18, Psicraft 20

Psi6,SM9,AP1: Greater Psionic Focus +3
Psi6,SM9,AP2: Greater Psionic Focus +2
Psi6,SM9,AP3: Greater Psionic Focus +1, Psionic Focus - Clairsentience
Psi6,SM9,AP4: Sculpt Power
Psi6,SM9,AP5: Psionic Energy Discharge

INT, WIS, or CHA = 18 (base) +5 (levels) +5 (tome) +6 (headband, periapt, or cloak)= 34 +2 (psionics prodigy) +16 (3x Overpowered Animal Afinity)= 52 INT, WIS, or CHA

(52-10)/2= +21 to DC +4 (Subpsionics) +2 (Psionic Focus) +6 (Greater Psionic Focus--High Psionics) +1 (Psionatrix of Telepathy, Clairsentience, or Metacreativity) +10 (base, or average d20 roll) = 45 - 53 for 0-9 level powers.

Not a submission, just playing around with Mind's Eye stuff.

Throw in a Torc of Psionic Might from the vanilla Psionics Handbook and he can metapsionic stuff up to a cost (normally) of 22 PP (Transcend Limits = Level +1 = 21 + Torc -1 to cost = [effective] 22).  That'll let you get off say a Fortified Double Overpowered Mass Concussion (assuming Telekinesis was one of your secondary disciplines).  7d4 doing 17 damage average + 17 for each overpower and + 4 for the fortify is 55 points of damage no save.  Actually, that's rather sad for such expediture.  Poor psions.

Maybe if instead of the third psionic focus feat you took a second transcend limts feat...  Then you could maximize a detonate for 102 points of damage or overpower it for an average 119 points of damage.  Sheez.  Psions got shafted when it comes to damage.

Hmmm..  Maybe if you used fission to divide then both you and your copy did twinned maximized mass concussions..  Nah, too expensive, and still low.  Oh well.  Back to cleric archers and shield bashing paladins.  

**Edit:  Oops.  And technically, that's not even a legal build.  I'm so used to our house psion I forgot.  Psions don't get bonus feats at 5, 10, etc.  We scrapped psionic combat and gave bonus feats instead.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 17, 2002)

Don't forget Jeremy, we're limited to 1 PrC from the start, so most of your combo there will have to wait for a bit.


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## Jeremy (Dec 17, 2002)

Heh.  Like I said, I wasn't doing a submission, I was just playing around with the Mind's Eye stuff and thinking out loud.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 17, 2002)

> From goldeneagle.
> 
> What did I miss that made that possible? It's supposed to be +6. 6+ like +7 and +8 is an epic enchantment and I believe we don't have excess to that... and certainly not at that price. Every +1 above +6 is the normal price times 10.




Definitely +8 is always an epic enhancement -and costs lotsa money. You also can't have it because I'm not allowing you to buy epic items, you will find them or eventually be able to create them.



> Hey creamy, I think the question got lost somewhere, but is Elements of Magic allowed? I know it's partly allowed when you said you allow must stuff from Nat20, but wanting to make sure.




I'm thinking Yes, as I think it looks like an awesome work -though I don't own it yet. Not just yet...


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## GoldenEagle (Dec 17, 2002)

+8 Fixed.

Anything else I missed?


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## Creamsteak (Dec 17, 2002)

I'll look into it.


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## Keia (Dec 18, 2002)

Psionics Prodigy was indeed off of the Spellcasting prodigy.  It was house-ruled in my game and I missed it.  Unfortunately, Spellcasting Prodigy is from Forgotten Realms and therefore is unavailable.  It will be removed unless okayed by creamsteak.

I also used the rule that a psion (only) could trade out psionic attack and defense modes (after 1st level) for additional psionic, meta-psionic or item creation feats, but now I can't find the reference.  I need a ruling on this.

Also, are intelligent items allowed?  Will you roll them up?

What about combining items, i.e. a ring of protection that also provides evasion as a ring of evasion.  The cost would be increased for the second item (doubled) so the final cost would be 50,000 (ring +5) + 50,000 (evasion x2 cost)  100,000gp

With the rule of eliminating [Teleportation] effects, I'm getting real close to scrapping this work and starting an elements of magic mage.

Keia


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## Jeremy (Dec 18, 2002)

I thought it was, the more expensive component has it's cost doubled?  Then again, according to DMG 246, I could be wrong...


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## Creamsteak (Dec 18, 2002)

I think I recognize it as correct.

I remember crafting a ring of immunities for the last epic character construction that also functioned as a ring of Wizardry IV, and I'm pretty sure I had to double the first affect, because of the expense. Could be wrong, I'm not the worlds most rules-oriented person.


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## Jemal (Dec 18, 2002)

I posted my character to the rogues gallery, Could you (Mr DM) tell me if it's good to go?


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 18, 2002)

JEmal, looks nice. I'd only swap out the speed for Acid burst and Sonic Burst or something like that, that you normally do +2d6 on 1 attack and +2d10 on a crit. Seems more valuable then 1 extra attack when you calculate average damage at 50% chance to crit.

Just a suggestion =]


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## Jemal (Dec 18, 2002)

interesting, I like.. Thanx TFO, I'm gonna go do the swap.


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 18, 2002)

I used to throw in 4 elemental things, 1d6 flaming, 1d6 acid, 1d6 electricity, 1d6 sonic. But I don't know it cream allows that. Most certianly no cold and flaming since that opposes and doesn't work... but if he allows screaming +1d6 sonic, corrosive +1d6 acid, flaming +1d6 fire, shocking +1d6 electrocity damage... that would even beat +2d6 at a normal hit and +2d6 and 2d10 at a critical wouldn't it? Would average better for certain I think, curious to what others think of that.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 19, 2002)

As long as you pay for it, by the rules, go ahead and take 4 seperate +1 enchantments to add 1d6 elemental damage.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 19, 2002)

Oh, and it's been my DnD philosophy that no two elements are opposed. There are always examples of cold creatures that are immune to fire, or fire creatures immune to cold... and there are cold creatures weak against electricity or sonic as well... I think every individual element can be opposed to any other, but it's not innately true of any of them.


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## GoldenEagle (Dec 19, 2002)

I edited my character again.  I did some of the math incorrectly the first time around.  

I noticed an archerer, mage, living blade, weapon master, myself the rogue...what else is being played?  Maybe it would be cool to have a list of characters, players etc in the first post of the RG or in the index. 

GE


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 19, 2002)

Sorceror with Divine magicks and similar 

Although I'm still waiting for the consensus on Relics and Rituals I and II   It's kinda important for deciding on my spell list and some class abilities.


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## Jemal (Dec 19, 2002)

Master of the Flamberge, otherwise known as "the Shockingly Frosty, Huge-ass Sword that deals double damage half the time."


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## Creamsteak (Dec 19, 2002)

Sollir, did you miss the posts about shooting R&R out? They are a little up the page methinks...


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 19, 2002)

This? :



> And I have a certain consideration for natural d20, but as of yet no other books have been accepted. I havn't even cleared buzzard's feat selection yet, as I want more information on the book used.




As of yet I took it as you wanted people to still vote if they wouldn't mind having R&R stuff in the campaign (even earlier post), or do you mean its definately not going to be allowed.


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## Victim (Dec 19, 2002)

Dalamar, you might want to look at the Lava element.  Walls of Lava can have extreme side effects, so they can do 20d6 per round and trap someone.


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 19, 2002)

It's definately not going to be allowed.

And I'm trying to have my char up by the end of this week... have a exam tomorrow =[


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## buzzard (Dec 19, 2002)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *
> And I have a certain consideration for natural d20, but as of yet no other books have been accepted. I havn't even cleared buzzard's feat selection yet, as I want more information on the book used.
> *




The two feats are from two different AEG books. 
The light sleeper one makes it so that I can make a normal listen check to wake up at no penalty. To actually hear the noise I would have to make another check once awake. 

The follow through is like a weak version of supreme cleave from the Samurai prestige class is S&F. It enables a 5' step into the opponents square after you take him down during a great cleave type action. Thus it is fairly limited in usefulness. 

Neither of the feats are particularly overpowering (IMHO). I can find more normal ones if you prefer. They were mostly just included for flavor. I suspect my character is going to be outclassed, since everyone else appears to be using this as a powergaming exercise. 

buzzard


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 19, 2002)

Btw cream, were you allowing liches? ANd via the way that we pay with XP and gp for the ritual and no ECL or.. ?

Since I'm planning on a Archpsion Psionic Lich (template from monte cook)


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## buzzard (Dec 19, 2002)

One question- what is a mage and where does it come from? Looks rather like a magic using psion, but not quite. 

buzzard


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 19, 2002)

Colors of magic d20 natural press I thought.


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## Janos Audron (Dec 19, 2002)

I like Liches.

Actually, I wanna vote in favor of including R&R books too.


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 19, 2002)

Munchkinism, abuse, even worse then MoF, unbalance, min max  *cough*

=]


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## Jemal (Dec 19, 2002)

"Munchkinism, abuse, even worse then MoF, unbalance, min max"

And what's wrong with all that stuff?


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## Dalamar (Dec 19, 2002)

buzzard said:
			
		

> *One question- what is a mage and where does it come from? Looks rather like a magic using psion, but not quite.*



 As was said, but mistyped, the mage is from Elements of Magic. It's a supplement by Nat20 Press. Well worth checking out IMO.

On the 'Magic-using psion' front, the mage is modeled after the psion in the way they cast spells, including costs and free uses of 0-level (level+1 only, though). This includes the annoying fact that they deal a fixed amount of damage for each spell level of a spell list, altho the mage actually gets +1/level (max +x) to some of them.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 20, 2002)

TFO, I am a little confused about all the seeming hostility, it's not like the current material allowed isn't broken.  I admit there are some nice things in those books but surely not stronger than anything Monte Cook has produced.

Btw, Official ECL of an (divine/arcane) lich is +3, read the rogue's gallery about that, I assume a psionic lich is the same-remember though, even liches aren't immune to attack modes.

The Mage looks interesting, fun stuff


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## Dalamar (Dec 20, 2002)

I think I'll compile a list of 'common' effects that I will be using, seems like a nice helper for myself and also shows what I can do to the rest of you.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 20, 2002)

We have 6 players posted. Is that going to be the whole group?


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## The Forsaken One (Dec 20, 2002)

Soz m8, very busy like I posted before. Just came home from my Final exam for this calender year and NOW I have time to write up a 20th level char which takes quite soem time as some of you may Know


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## Dalamar (Dec 20, 2002)

*Passwall*
_Spell list_ Abjure Earth 9, Elemental Attunement
_Effect_ Can move own speed in any direction inside Earth (half speed up, double speed down)
Duration 1 hour/level

*Magic Immunity*
_Spell list_ Abjure Magic 5, Antimagic
_Effect_ Creature touched is surrounded by a personal range antimagic field
Duration 1 minute/level

*Earth's Cudgel*
_Spell list_ Create Earth Object 1, Weapon
_Effect_ Creates a weapon out of Earth. Attacking with is a touch attack (whether it is a ranged (Close range) or melee is chosen at the time of casting)
The weapon does d8 earth damage makes the attacked target dirty. Duration 1 round/level

*Weaken*
_Spell list_ Enervate & Restore 3, Enervate
_Effect_ Creature touched takes d6+1/2 levels temp ability damage to chosen ability, Will DC 19 negates.
Duration Instantaneous

*Magic Missile*, 5 missiles
_Spell list_ Evoke Force 5
_Effect_ 5 missiles, each dealing d4 +1/level. Each can be targeted to a different creature, no two of which can be more than 50ft apart. Must succeed at a ranged touch attack.
Line of Sight range.

*Magic Missile*, 9 missile
_Spell list_ Evoke Force 9
_Effect_ 9 missiles, each dealing d4 +1/level. Each can be targeted to a different creature, no two of which can be more than 90ft apart. Must succeed at a ranged touch attack.
Line of Sight range.

*Earth's Pummel*
_Spell list_ Evoke Earth 6
_Effect_ A ray (Long range) shoots out to a target, dealing 11d6 +1/level Earth damage (Ref DC 23 for half) and the target becomes dirty.

*Fireball*
_Spell list_ Evoke Area Fire 4
_Effect_ Shoots a pellet up to Long range, which explodes to a 25ft radius sphere. Everybody caught in the sphere takes 7d6 +1/level damage (Ref DC 20 for half)
Creatures must also make a Reflex save (DC 15) or catch on fire.

*Strenght of Earth*
_Spell list_ Infuse Creature with Earth 9, Body
_Effect_ One creature touched gains a +12 _enhancement_ bonus to Strength. The target is also protected from high intesity side effects of Earth.
Duration 1 hour/level

*Hide and Go Seek*
_Spell list_ Infuse object with Fire 4, Skill Enhancement
_Effect_ One object (such as cloack or boots) is infused with the element of Fire, granting a +10 _enhancement_ bonus to one Dexterity based skill chosen at the time of casting. The item must be somehow related to the skill.
Common target is cloak for Hide and boots for Move Silently.
Duration 1 hour/level

*Reinforce Item*
_Spell list_ Infuse object with Earth 4, Strengthen
_Effect_ One object of up to 100lbs/level becomes stronger, gaining +5 HP/inch of thickness and its Break DC is increased by +5. The object also becomes immune to the moderate side-effects of Earth.
Duration 1 hour/level

*Stalker*
_Spell list_ Invisibility 6
_Effect_ Target touched becomes invisible as _improved invisibility_ except the target can't be hear. Nor can the target be seen with _see invisible_.
Duration 1 minute/level

*Earth to Soil*
_Spell list_ Polymorph Earth 6
_Effect_ Earth or stone object of up to Huge size in medium range is altered. Size can be changed up to 3 categories. Moderate changes to the substance can be made (examples include changing steel to copper).
Used mainly to change stone and such to mud or soil. Attended objects get a Fort (DC 22) save to negate the effect.
Duration Permanent

*True Darkvision*
_Spell list_ Sight 7
_Effect_ Creature touched gains Darkvision up to its normal range of vision
Duration 10 minutes/level

*Call Huge Earth Elemental*
_Spell list_ Summon Earth 9
_Effect_ A huge earth elemental is brough and does as it is conmmanded. It appears within Close range.
Duration 1 round/level

*Wall of Stone*
_Spell list_ Wall of Earth 5
_Effect_ Creates one 5ft square/level of 1 inch/4 levels thick stone wall.
Creatures locked inside a structure made with the wall starts to slowly suffocate (see DMG p.88)
Duration Instantaneous (Note: if the DM decides that such a wall has a gp value, I must pay 1 XP for each 10 gp of value)


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## DM_Matt (Dec 20, 2002)

I will post my guy shortly...he's complicated...I am doing a Psionic Constructor character...


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 20, 2002)

My char is 75% done, spell list pending for those who vote for RRII, it doesn't look like it'l be used in so I'll revise her tonight.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 21, 2002)

Alright, I guess it'll be a while longer before we start.


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## Jemal (Dec 21, 2002)

WHOA! Dalamar - I take it all those spells are heavily modified?  I recognize some of the names, but none of them look like the ones I know... weird.


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## Dalamar (Dec 21, 2002)

Actually, they're not spells, but parts of the Mage class' spell list. For example, I can cast _burning hands_ at levels through 0 to 9. This is part of the Evoke Area [Element] (Fire) list that also includes effects to mimic _cone of cold_, _fireball_ and _flame strike_ with the chosen element.

The mage can duplicate quite a few of the spells from the PHB, but is lacking when other spellcasters have access to spells from other sources.
Altho, the mage can create some interesting effects on his own. Like I could create a temporary (or even Instantaneous) shield made of darkwood with Create [Element] Object (Biomatter), and then enchant it to +5 with Infuse Object with [Element] (any). Creating the shield would of course require a Craft check.

As I said, I recommend Elements of Magic to anybody who is interested in a variant spellcaster.


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## Leopold (Dec 22, 2002)

CAn i be added to the "Waiting list" for this game? I have an PC ready for this game already to go..just have to tweak him a touch..


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## Creamsteak (Dec 22, 2002)

No problem...


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## Dalamar (Dec 22, 2002)

When do we start? Who are we waiting? What is the meaning of life? Who do I ask so many questions?


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## Creamsteak (Dec 22, 2002)

When I'm sure everyone's characters are done and I, myself, am prepared.


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## Leopold (Dec 23, 2002)

CS: For standby PC's can we just create them and have them ready for you or do you want us to wait for you call upon us? Do you have a list of standbys already?

JC to see how far down i am on rank


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## GoldenEagle (Dec 27, 2002)

*Cast of Characters*

In an effort to move things forward (and at the risk of seeming overly excited about this game), here are the characters posted or in progress.  Any idea on a start time, frequency of posts, etc?

Buzzard - Reardon the Smith (Fighter 20)

Keia - Verra Frimson "The Hawk" (Elven Nomad)

GE - Malibeem Lightfoot (Halfling Ranger 1/Rogue 19)

Jemal - William Masterson (Fighter 10 / Weapons Master 10)

Dalamar - Veit Ungart (Dwarf Mage 20)

Janos Ard. - Nameless (Wizard 20)

TFO - ?

Sollir ?

Reaper ?

DM_Matt - Psionic Constructionist

The Waiting List: Lichtenhart, Leopold


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## Creamsteak (Dec 27, 2002)

I think it is slightly curious that those three are the ones who still havn't posted. When they are done, I'll try and open up the first thread, which will just be the pre-dungeon RP to help introduce the DM to your characters. You'll basically be free to describe the kingdoms you own/saved/killed and all that other fun stuff.

(Did I succeed at my Innuendo check?)

The dungeon will house a Divine Rank, which I hope is appropriate motivation for all of your characters. If it isn't... maybe preventing the others from getting it will be.


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## Leopold (Dec 27, 2002)

please let me know if any slots come open...i so want to try a full 20 level rogue or 10/10 rogue assassin!


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## reapersaurus (Dec 27, 2002)

OK.
I've been fencepost-sitting on this one, but if you remembered to include me in the list, and are waiting for my entry, than I will try to give it a go.

Seriously, I take the idea of an epic-level character so seriously that the amount of work in thinking up a back-story to start, not to mention the stories/anecdotes/gear/etc that a character of that experience would have is daunting to me personally.

I haven't looked at the submitted characters yet, but in my mind, they should be like 4 typed pages long each (to do proper justice to that experienced of character). Hell, the stories/explanations of how all that gear was obtained would be pages, if you did it all out, right?

So to be dumb, and for purposes of clarification....
cs - what is the setup of the game again? Brief overview, etc? (there's gonna be a intro dungeon-escaoe thingy which sounds cool, i know, but what else am i missing?)

And I gotta read up on the epic stuff - 
cs, did you say that we won't be obtaining epic levels, or something?
If we were, than as i understand, you have to be (for example) Pal20 before getting the major benefits of Epic stuff, right?
In other words, if you multiclass, you can't get Epic feats?

And the paladin interests me, even without a dragon mount.
However, the limitation of dungeon-crawling pushes me into a halfling paladin riding a celestial wardog, or something, which I've been hesitant to 'go there'.
Also, my personal thoughts are that high-level paladins are screwed, not obtaining almost anything (their spells are triple-penalized (caster level, selection, and slots)) and all they get is more Remove Disease.
Most Paladin re-works include more Smites per day at higher levels - 
would you be interested in allowing something like that, cs?

any thoughts about epic level gaming or a Pal20 would be welcomed.


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## Keia (Dec 27, 2002)

Monte Cook's Book of Hallowed Might has an alternate Paladin that gains some decent abilities at higher level - mostly dealing with a personal weapon.  At 20th (and building the character at that level), the weapon loses some of its gleam (since you can just build your own).

Keia


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## reapersaurus (Dec 27, 2002)

ya, as i surmise (perhaps incorrectly), Monte likes giving classes (and PrC's) some innate abilities that can easily be bought in a weapon or the like.

I've never understood that from a gaming mechanic perspective.
It makes the class weaker overall if you bundle in weapon abilities with the class abilities.
Class abilities SHOULD be unique things that you can't buy, and should (IMO) be much more powerful than magic items (else, your character is just the sum of his gear, not a heroic figure on his/her own).


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## Creamsteak (Dec 27, 2002)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Seriously, I take the idea of an epic-level character so seriously that the amount of work in thinking up a back-story to start, not to mention the stories/anecdotes/gear/etc that a character of that experience would have is daunting to me personally.*



That's admirable.



> *I haven't looked at the submitted characters yet, but in my mind, they should be like 4 typed pages long each (to do proper justice to that experienced of character). Hell, the stories/explanations of how all that gear was obtained would be pages, if you did it all out, right?*



Right. If this was a long-term game, I would attempt to influence players to do such, but I'm planning on this game only going from 20th-26th level, possibly as high as 30th. It won't be too overly important to decide where the gear came from, as much as your characters motives and reactions. Once you can figure out the mind-set of your character, you should be fine for this game.


> *So to be dumb, and for purposes of clarification....
> cs - what is the setup of the game again? Brief overview, etc? (there's gonna be a intro dungeon-escaoe thingy which sounds cool, i know, but what else am i missing?)*



I don't want to reveal too much before play begins. Establish your characters Base of Operations, and decide on the best way to motivate your character. If you have deities and Demigods, this game will be using the "Divine Spark" theory. A Divine Spark will exist (and use it's powers to influence) the dungeon that will be the setting. If your character wouldn't be motivated to achieve it for himself, perhaps he should be trying to prevent some of the other players from getting it.



> *And I gotta read up on the epic stuff -
> cs, did you say that we won't be obtaining epic levels, or something?
> If we were, than as i understand, you have to be (for example) Pal20 before getting the major benefits of Epic stuff, right?
> In other words, if you multiclass, you can't get Epic feats?*




You will be obtaining Epic Levels. Actually, for Epic Feats (specifically), you get one at 21st level, one at 24th, one at 27th, and one at 30th nomatter what class you are. However, in order to haul the *BONUS* epic feats of a class, you must have reached the highest possible level in that class. In other words, a fighter 15/Ranger 5 cannot select epic feats for his fighter Bonus Feats, however, he can select bonus feats at levels 21, 24, 27, and 30. I hope that helps.



> *And the paladin interests me, even without a dragon mount.
> However, the limitation of dungeon-crawling pushes me into a halfling paladin riding a celestial wardog, or something, which I've been hesitant to 'go there'.
> Also, my personal thoughts are that high-level paladins are screwed, not obtaining almost anything (their spells are triple-penalized (caster level, selection, and slots)) and all they get is more Remove Disease.
> Most Paladin re-works include more Smites per day at higher levels -
> ...




You can have the dragon mount, I just don't see you bringing it into the dungeon. Also, keep this little note in mind: The dungeon will manipulate every character in it. You know this beforehand. Do you really want to risk a good friend like the Dragon Mount by bringing him/her along?

Also, I'm fine with Paladin re-works, but there is a PRC in the ELH that makes Paladins really badass, which seems to be my natural inclination after level 20.


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## Leopold (Dec 27, 2002)

CS-I'm with reaper on this one. My whole concept would be along the same lines. Very old PC (using my namesake Leopold here) for this one and that i would progress through 20-30 levels in rogues with. Backstory? about a page, and the only book i'd use would be PHB and DMG. No celestial bodies, no wererat abilities, straight up halfing rogue 20. I want to see how it would breakdown at that level if it would. 

Basic concept: Money=Powers and the more money i have the more powerful i become. Being a god would make it that much easier to accumlate wealth and power but having some fun along the way also helps. very carefree, very fun loving halfing, except loot, then it's business....Is this your iconic halfling? Perhaps, but always with a twist.


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## Creamsteak (Dec 27, 2002)

I need to look back to see who posted first, but Janos is out of Epic (private matter). I didn't want it to come to this but, I have my reasons.


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## Janos Audron (Dec 27, 2002)

Yep, what Creamsteak said. I've been a bad boy in real life, and Creamsteak has decided to punish me for that.

I wish you all a lot of fun with gaming.


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## Leopold (Dec 27, 2002)

ok keep us posted...if you want CS we can all post our PC's and just let us know who you want to invite in..


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## GoldenEagle (Dec 28, 2002)

*Re: Cast of Characters*



			
				GoldenEagle said:
			
		

> *
> Buzzard - Reardon the Smith (Fighter 20)
> 
> Keia - Verra Frimson "The Hawk" (Elven Nomad)
> ...





Are we getting any closer?


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Dec 28, 2002)

Yep, I've decided what I'm gonna play, gonna stat it out soon.


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## buzzard (Dec 28, 2002)

Well I admit I didn't make a three page description of his history describing how be obtained everything and whatnot, but since I played the guy to only aboput 8th in 2nd Ed, it would take a while. What I did do, however was pick items based mostly on his temperment rather than pure combat efficacy. For example I have a pot that can melt anything. Not terribly useful in most cases, but for a smith it is a godsend. I based essentially all of my decisions about items and feats in that way. Even the skill selection is based on that direction. Does anyone think I'm going to get a lot of use out of craft metalworking 20? The weapons master would  beat Rearden like a rented mule. This isn't to say that he is useless, but I certainly could powergame up a much more effective killing machine. I just wanted to make something interesting instead. 

buzzard


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## GoldenEagle (Jan 1, 2003)

I just bumped into this thread on the second page and wanted to see if we had a targeted date for character submissions and starting.  I know CS said he'd start when ready, but do we have a date for gettting the PCs in?


Don't mean to be too forward, it just seems that a lot of the games I'm in are slowing down and I am looking forward to playing more.

GE


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## Creamsteak (Jan 1, 2003)

Everyone's in. I added to the size of the dungeon a bit to accomodate 12 players, and it looks like this game will not be as short as I originally planned.


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## Leopold (Jan 2, 2003)

so i can play my halfing rogue then CS? is that what you are saying by now having it big enough for 12 people? you including us bystanders and gawkers ....



Question: Will you allow the following books or feats from them especially:

AEG Mercenaries
FanCC:Netbook of Feats


there is one feat i know of from Mercs i want to take but beyond that it is 20 pure levels of rogue...


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## Lichtenhart (Jan 3, 2003)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *I don't want to reveal too much before play begins. Establish your characters Base of Operations, and decide on the best way to motivate your character. If you have deities and Demigods, this game will be using the "Divine Spark" theory. A Divine Spark will exist (and use it's powers to influence) the dungeon that will be the setting. If your character wouldn't be motivated to achieve it for himself, perhaps he should be trying to prevent some of the other players from getting it.*




Could I be trying to get it for an NPC? I'd like to play a monk who's trying to achieve it to save his master. also I'm very sorry sorry if you've already answered to this question, but I don't have the time to check: is anything from OA allowed?


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## Janos Audron (Jan 3, 2003)

CS, I'd like to come back, of course. But since I've deleted my 1/2 finished character (), how much more time do I have to finish it?


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## Creamsteak (Jan 3, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> *so i can play my halfing rogue then CS? is that what you are saying by now having it big enough for 12 people? you including us bystanders and gawkers ....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On a bit by bit case. Type up the whole feat and submit it to me in the Out of Character Thread (use the Index to find it), I'll approve it if I don't feel it's too weird. And as for the first two questions, Yes, and you shouldn't know


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## Creamsteak (Jan 3, 2003)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Could I be trying to get it for an NPC? I'd like to play a monk who's trying to achieve it to save his master. also I'm very sorry sorry if you've already answered to this question, but I don't have the time to check: is anything from OA allowed? *



 Of course, I'll allow prcs from OA, Iaijutsu Focus as a Restricted skill that can only be taken as a Samurai, and classes/feats from Oriental Adventures. The rest of the Rokugan books are a possible no, but I'd deal with it on a case by case basis.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 3, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *CS, I'd like to come back, of course. But since I've deleted my 1/2 finished character (), how much more time do I have to finish it? *



About a week and a Half I suppose. Will that suffice?


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## Janos Audron (Jan 3, 2003)

Yeah, I'll make that.

So, what's the final ruling on precise touch?


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## Janos Audron (Jan 7, 2003)

CS, another question: Can I make Fox Cunning permanent through Permanency? (I'll pay for that answer)

And what ECL is a Lich (and what's the ECL if you do not craft the phylactery)

Can you use Wish to make a Permanent Spell undispellable (still subject to Mord's)?


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## Creamsteak (Jan 8, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *CS, another question: Can I make Fox Cunning permanent through Permanency? (I'll pay for that answer)
> 
> And what ECL is a Lich (and what's the ECL if you do not craft the phylactery)
> 
> Can you use Wish to make a Permanent Spell undispellable (still subject to Mord's)? *



What's the source on Fox Cunning? I might have that book, but I might not...

The ECL on lich...This place says +6 and they seem reasonable.

I'd say you can wish (spending 5000 xp) to give a spell a +20 resistance bonus against dispels, per spell... but I want to know more specifics before I actually state anything. I know an expensive permanency getting blown off by a no-xp spending Greater Dispel is rather painful, and I'd like to circumvent pains at the right price, so long as it's done for good reasons.


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## Victim (Jan 8, 2003)

Fox's Cunning is from Tomb and Blood.  A form of the Epic Tenacious Magic might work for permanent spells.


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## GoldenEagle (Jan 11, 2003)

just hoping this game is moving forward 

GE


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## buzzard (Jan 11, 2003)

Creamsteak,
I think we ought to get this show on the road. How many characters are ready now? I suspect enough. Let's just go with those. 

buzzard


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## Creamsteak (Jan 11, 2003)

buzzard said:
			
		

> *Creamsteak,
> I think we ought to get this show on the road. How many characters are ready now? I suspect enough. Let's just go with those.
> 
> buzzard *



Is Janos done yet? I anticipate it won't take him too much longer.


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## Leopold (Jan 11, 2003)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *Is Janos done yet? I anticipate it won't take him too much longer. *





just tidying up the last bit of stuff to buy...not much longer for me as well..cleaning me house and watching football..prioties ya see


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## DM_Matt (Jan 11, 2003)

I'll have my guy soon, too


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## reapersaurus (Jan 11, 2003)

[roll-call] maybe I can get to my guy.
Next week I'm fairly free, also, so I should have a chance. [/roll-call]


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## Janos Audron (Jan 11, 2003)

cs, if you could answer the question aout Fox Cunning from a few posts up?


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## Creamsteak (Jan 14, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *cs, if you could answer the question aout Fox Cunning from a few posts up? *



I did, as you can see, I asked for the source. They say Tome and Blood, but off hand I don't know what the spell does, and the books out of house right now.

Is it the 2nd level spell that boosts intelligence? I've got a peculiarity with that spell, as mental stat boosting by a spellcaster is in turn boosting bonus spells and whatever. It's fine to have, and cast with permanency, and then spend 5000 xp to wish for a +20 bonus (same kind as cloak of resistance for stacking purposes) to resist dispel for that permanency, but remember that if you triple empower it, it's going to cost 4000 xp to permanency... and bring your cost up to 9000 xp.

I'll review some characters later this week.


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## reapersaurus (Jan 14, 2003)

Fox's Cunning is the 2nd level that boosts INT.
But it just boost save DC's - none of the boost spells grant bonus spells.
It's listed in Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendor, and Owl's Wisdom descriptions.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 15, 2003)

reapersaurus said:
			
		

> *Fox's Cunning is the 2nd level that boosts INT.
> But it just boost save DC's - none of the boost spells grant bonus spells.
> It's listed in Fox's Cunning, Eagle's Splendor, and Owl's Wisdom descriptions. *



Thanx reaper. That's more what I needed.


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## Janos Audron (Jan 15, 2003)

Well, CS, technically, since empowering a spell does not change the spell level, it's still gonna cost 1k xp...

And second, I thought that every Int bonus that lasted more than 24 hours gave you extra spells...?


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## Creamsteak (Jan 15, 2003)

Janos Audron said:
			
		

> *Well, CS, technically, since empowering a spell does not change the spell level, it's still gonna cost 1k xp...
> 
> And second, I thought that every Int bonus that lasted more than 24 hours gave you extra spells...? *



He stated that it's in the spell's text. Also, the 4k note was specifically coming from me, not the rules. Your spell is using an 8th level slot, and that's what matters to me, not what 'spell level' it acts as for saving throws and such.


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## GoldenEagle (Jan 20, 2003)

Just bumped into this thread, wanted to see if it was still breathing 

I am really interested in checking out Epic stuff.

GE


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## buzzard (Jan 20, 2003)

No, I believe the nurse kicked out the life support system plug some time ago. 

Maybe we can find a necromancer and attain undead status. 

buzzard


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## GoldenEagle (Jan 20, 2003)

buzzard said:
			
		

> *No, I believe the nurse kicked out the life support system plug some time ago.
> 
> Maybe we can find a necromancer and attain undead status.
> 
> buzzard *




ROFLMAO


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## Creamsteak (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm still here of course. If you think it wise to start an (EPIC) Starting thread up again, to refresh the blood in this game, post so. It tends to help when time gets stretched out longer than they should. Some of the original members may not even be here, while some are regulars. Motivation is key, hell-I'd rather run a game for 5 people than 10, but I formatted this game to have a style all it's own for 10.

Then again, the format I'm using also accomodates one more thing: Individual speed. Since everyone would be opperating solo-most of the time, I could start the game and check the done characters. After your first IC post, and my OK on your character, you can begin. I've got no problem doing this either.


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## buzzard (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm ready to go. Give me some background of where, why and whatnot and I'll start. 

buzzard


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## Victim (Jan 21, 2003)

If you lost some people, I'd be willing to play.  I passed the first time because I left my Epic book at home.


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## GoldenEagle (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm ready too.

GE


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## Leopold (Jan 21, 2003)

i'm in..just trying to figure out how to spend the other 300k i got...


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## Keia (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm in, just not sure my concet is feasible in this adventure.  I need to spend some money and look ove the charater again.

Keia


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## Dalamar (Jan 21, 2003)

I'm still in.


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## Creamsteak (Jan 23, 2003)

Alright then, we start soon.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (Jan 24, 2003)

Forgot to say this formally but I told a few people over Mirc, I'm dropping out of the game since the meaner part of my munchkining side gets to me when making a character   aka, making something that can kill another character from halfway around the globe or basically paralyze them for the duration of the game with no save from anywhere in the prime 

Although it was fun plotting


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