# DUNE Movie: Thoughts, Opinions, and Impressions



## embee (Oct 18, 2021)

So, having watched Dune (2021), I'm not overly impressed with the writing or the acting. As pertains to the writing, enormous liberties were taken with the script. It's, at least in my opinion, a very dumbed-down version of Dune. The acting is fairly wooden as well, which is to be expected from Jason Momoa and Dave Bautista. I've never seen any of Chalamet's other work but if this is his level of acting, well I'm not impressed. As to Josh Brolin, it was fairly standard gruff Brolin. 

Visually, it was fine although there were still major problems - mostly due to the way Hollywood movies work. The stillsuits are designed to capture nearly all water lost through sweat, exhalation, and elimination. And yet the major cast goes around unmasked for most of the time. I know. I get it. The stars didn't sign on to have their faces covered up. 

And finally, again minor but big, the accents. I know that serious sci-fi is supposed to have English accents because it's Fakespeare. It's faux gravitas and it's stupid. So what happens when you jettison the fake English accents and have epic scifi with flat American accents? Everything just seems, well, flat. Not to mention that it leads to jarring American pronunciations like "HAR-kuh-nin" and Beast "Rabbin." 

Maybe I was "spoiled" by the David Lynch version or too many readings of the book in my youth but my thoughts on the movie are that it is "Dune, based on the book by Frank Herbert." And yes, many of these are little things. But little things add up. 

But what did you think?


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## Jmarso (Oct 18, 2021)

Doesn't open where I'm at until the end of this week. Been looking forward to it forever and going in with sky-high expectations and hope that they get to finish the book with a second movie.


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## R_J_K75 (Oct 18, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> hope that they get to finish the book with a second movie.



I read the other day that its likely to happen depending on how it does on HBO MAX but the writer and director were pretty miffed that they released it on streaming as well.  ICR where I read it, and the information in the article was kind of jumbled so it was hard to get an accurate time frame, but Im expecting it'll happen.  I was looking forward to this too but also read that this movie ends abruptly. So considering I've tried reading Dune at least 5 times and never once finished it it would be just my luck that the sequel never gets made.  I'll most likely check it out on HBO MAX this weekend, but Im not setting my expectations too high.  For the record the 6 prelude to Dune novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson were great.


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## Jmarso (Oct 18, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> For the record the 6 prelude to Dune novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson were great.



I read a couple of those and didn't like them, although there may have been some bias on my part, as a) I've never liked Kevin Andersen, and b) the whole effort felt like a cash-grab on the part of the son. I may have judged them too harshly, I'll admit.


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## R_J_K75 (Oct 18, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> I read a couple of those and didn't like them, although there may have been some bias on my part, as a) I've never liked Kevin Andersen, and b) the whole effort felt like a cash-grab on the part of the son. I may have judged them too harshly, I'll admit.



I knew nothing about them except that his son co-wrote them.  I haven't read anything since then but think they wrote quite a few more, including finishing the OG series that his father started.  So your cash grab claim may not be far from the truth, IDK.  Seeing as I never finish Dune, I really wasn't all that invested in the those books so I may not have been biased as some people might have been going into them.


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## Jmarso (Oct 18, 2021)

To be honest, for all its fame and importance in sci-fi, nothing in the Dune-verse grabs me beyond the first book. I read the first two sequels, and felt that each one was only about half as good as the one that came before it, so I stopped. For me personally, Dune is a one-shot: the first book. But oh man, how do I love that one book!!


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## embee (Oct 18, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> To be honest, for all its fame and importance in sci-fi, nothing in the Dune-verse grabs me beyond the first book. I read the first two sequels, and felt that each one was only about half as good as the one that came before it, so I stopped. For me personally, Dune is a one-shot: the first book. But oh man, how do I love that one book!!



That's pretty much the general consensus. 

Dune Messiah is very good. Children of Dune is quite good. God Emperor of Dune is good but has really sort of lost the thread. And Heretics and Chapterhouse are drek.


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## Jmarso (Oct 18, 2021)

Just looked and saw there are a couple Thursday night showings here, sort of like the old 'midnight release' but they do it at normal times. May have to jump on that train.


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## Morrus (Oct 18, 2021)

embee said:


> And finally, again minor but big, the accents. I know that serious sci-fi is supposed to have English accents because it's Fakespeare. It's faux gravitas and it's stupid. So what happens when you jettison the fake English accents and have epic scifi with flat American accents? Everything just seems, well, flat. Not to mention that it leads to jarring American pronunciations like "HAR-kuh-nin" and Beast "Rabbin."



Well, from our point of view, that means the characters _don't_ have flat accents! So it's a win for us!


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## sgtnasty (Oct 18, 2021)

embee said:


> But what did you think?



No dialog for such an incredible cast. All the good dialog was cut.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 19, 2021)

embee said:


> Not to mention that it leads to jarring American pronunciations like "HAR-kuh-nin" and Beast "Rabbin."



Given that Herbert was from Tacoma, that is presumably how he intended them to be pronounced? As well as _Doon,_ which was the name of the planet in the Lynch version.


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## Argyle King (Oct 19, 2021)

I agree with portions of what the OP said: visually, the movie looks good; but the story seems very stripped down. 

I feel as though the world-building efforts of the movie are pretty good. A lot of time is put into explaining the backdrop of the setting, why things are the way they are, and how the general ecology of the setting kinda works. 

Unfortunately, in contrast, the methods chosen for telling the actual story sometimes feel a bit empty. 

I more-or-less enjoyed it because I was already invested in the idea of a new Dune movie. For the average movie-goer, I think it's going to be a little painful to sit through the entire thing. The movie doesn't do a great job of inviting the audience into the story.

At 2.5 hours long for "part 1," I think it would have been better to film a 1-season mini-series for a streaming platform and space out the world building so as to have time to tell the story and give more substance to the dialogue and characters.

The movie has a good ensemble cast but doesn't make much use of the cast. 

•looks cool
•good world building
•somewhat dry approach to storytelling 

Dune ends up being a mostly-good amusement park ride or visual spectacle, while also simultaneously being a kinda meh movie.


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## Mallus (Oct 19, 2021)

I’ll let you know on Friday!

I wonder if it‘ll beat Lynch‘s version? Note: not sarcasm, I love Lynch’s Dune.


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## Ath-kethin (Oct 19, 2021)

They changed the term "jihad" to "crusade." It's was in one of the trailers.

I lost interest in anything they're doing after that point. It seems a small change but it illustrates all I need to know about how they approached the story and setting.


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## Mercurius (Oct 20, 2021)

Lynch's version is a very flawed masterpiece. Such great atmosphere and Lynchian weirdness, but hugely rushed in the second half, and of course the poor casting choice of Sting. But the first half or so is great.

Kind of disappointed to hear the impressions in the OP. Oh well, at least it will be pretty to look at.

And to the OP, Chalamet was great in Beautiful Boy.


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## Imaculata (Oct 20, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> I was looking forward to this too but also read that this movie ends abruptly.




Not really. The story has a logical mid point, and that is where it ends. It did not feel abrupt to me at all.

I also strongly disagree with the OP. I consider this movie a masterpiece, and superior to Lynch's film in almost every way. Go see it in the theater.


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## R_J_K75 (Oct 20, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> Not really. The story has a logical mid point, and that is where it ends. It did not feel abrupt to me at all.
> 
> I also strongly disagree with the OP. I consider this movie a masterpiece, and superior to Lynch's film in almost every way. Go see it in the theater.



Good to know that it ends at a logical point.  






SPOILER: If I had to guess is it when Paul first rides the Sandworm?



Iron Maiden: Can we.name our new song Dune?
Herbert: I dont like Heavy Metal groups.


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## R_J_K75 (Oct 20, 2021)

How can any discussion about DUNE be complete without....


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## Argyle King (Oct 20, 2021)

Second thoughts after another viewing:

The movie is roughly 2.5 hours long.

The first 1.5 hours is still more-or-less what I've said in my previous comment. It's a lot of set up and world-building (which is good) while also being a bit dry in terms of getting to the actual story. 

The last 45 minutes or so starts to get into telling a rather good story. Then it's over. 

The choice of place to stop makes sense. 

Thinking back on it all, my opinion is that a large chunk of this movie feels a bit like a prologue. It's a necessary prologue to understand the stage upon which the story takes place and to understand who the characters are and why they're there, but it's not always an enjoyable ride to sit through. I wouldn't say it's bad; but a few parts are (as said) a bit dry. It's occasionally rough to sit through in the same way that Season 1 of Game of Thrones was necessary to set the stage but had episodes which were dry until the ball got rolling. 

Once the movie gets to the actual story, I think it's an enjoyable ride, but one which ends quickly. In some ways that's a good thing because it stops at a point where you're left wanting to see more. On the other hand, I believe that how the entire story is ultimately viewed will depend upon how much time the audience is required to wait before seeing the next part.

Most of the cast seems fine when the actors are actually acting and not just kinda standing around. 

Dave Bautista seemed fine for the part for which he was chosen. It'll be hard to judge before seeing the next part. Still, I think his acting has improved over the past few years. He seems to be putting effort into his craft. 

Jason Momoa wasn't great. I don't expect a wide range from him. Though, even without high expectations, it was one of his weaker performances. I was bummed by that because I actually like some of the work he's done in other shows and movies. Here, it just didn't seem as though he was putting in his best effort. 

I enjoyed the movie enough to want to see more. Simultaneously, I still think that a portion of the movie will be a bumpy experience for those unfamiliar with the source material.


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## Imaculata (Oct 20, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> SPOILER: If I had to guess is it when Paul first rides the Sandworm?




Close.



Spoiler



It is once Paul and Jessica head into the desert and meet up with the Fremen.


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## thom_likes_gaming (Oct 20, 2021)

I saw it like 2 or 3 weeks back. I went with a friend of mine who knew nothing about Dune, and her boyfriend, who's a fan (like me).

I ended up glad that my wife didn't come along, as the plot would have been rather hard to follow (she never read the books), and she wouldn't have enjoyed it). My friend stated, she like the movie OK enough, but didn't really get much of what was going on and certainly missed most of the subtleties, such as they were.

For me, I liked it, but I'm afraid it's just more proof that cool books (or rather book series) like that are just not suited for the cinema format. There is just so freaking much stuff and simply not enough space and time. So yeah, I get the "dumbed down" reference, though that's certainly not how I would phrase it.

I found the visuals quite OK. They were a lot more low-key and kinda dark and gritty than I had expected (worried - Hollywood, you know), so that's a plus. I don't see much reason to complain about the acting, seemed fine to me. I don't quite see how characters not wearing masks all the time can be a point of complaint. Seems like pure logistics to, not vanity.

That all said, I dearly hope they get to finish at least the first book. It'd be a shame if not.

PS: British accents in movies are fine


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## Zaukrie (Oct 20, 2021)

I might go see it this weekend or next week in the theaters....but this really seems like it should have been on HBO or Apple+ as a series........just too much for a movie.


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## payn (Oct 20, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> I might go see it this weekend or next week in the theaters....but this really seems like it should have been on HBO or Apple+ as a series........just too much for a movie.



It's so true. Leto getting offed could have been season 1s Ned Stark moment. Dune could have been a whole new GoT. Of course, we see what they did with that so maybe its for the best?


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## Zaukrie (Oct 20, 2021)

payn said:


> It's so true. Leto getting offed could have been season 1s Ned Stark moment. Dune could have been a whole new GoT. Of course, we see what they did with that so maybe its for the best?



It was great until it wasn't. We got 5-7 years of great tv, rather than 1 movie that would have been incoherent......but I get you.


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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 22, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Given that Herbert was from Tacoma, that is presumably how he intended them to be pronounced? As well as _Doon,_ which was the name of the planet in the Lynch version.



Wait how else could you pronounce Dune?


Ath-kethin said:


> They changed the term "jihad" to "crusade." It's was in one of the trailers.
> 
> I lost interest in anything they're doing after that point. It seems a small change but it illustrates all I need to know about how they approached the story and setting.



What on Earth?


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## Ath-kethin (Oct 22, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Wait how else could you pronounce Dune?
> 
> What on Earth?



It's in the third trailer.

The Pink Floyd song in the first one was off-putting enough. But with this one I think I'm out.


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## doctorbadwolf (Oct 22, 2021)

Ath-kethin said:


> It's in the third trailer.
> 
> The Pink Floyd song in the first one was off-putting enough. But with this one I think I'm out.



No I’m confused about what could lead someone to not want to see the movie becauSe they changed jihad to crusade?


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## payn (Oct 22, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> No I’m confused about what could lead someone to not want to see the movie becauSe they changed jihad to crusade?



Its not worth fussing over, really its not. Let them go.


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## Herschel (Oct 22, 2021)

It was.......okay. The beginning has some issues, and the complete glossing over of the journey to Arakis or any interstellar travel was a bit jarring. Many of the things that may have been over explained in Lynch's version had none in this one. The Hunter Seeker was another. I know the shields play a lot, but it also seems odd that folks who have so much high-tech at their disposal resort to swords for infantry combat.

Doctor Yueh could have used a bit more character development, as well. his betrayal didn't seem epic at all. He was basically a JAG. Lady Jessica was also weaker than expected as a character. 

Oscar Isaac is very good, and it's gorgeous to watch. Stellen Skarsgard also makes a good, less cartoonish Baron. 

The pacing was just weird. It's a sprawling and grandiose movie with an awful lot of rushed or skipped bits. It finds its groove much better later.


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## Jmarso (Oct 22, 2021)

Just got back from an early showing of Dune. Pretty epic all around. My one 'thing' with this version is that it will easily confuse people who don't already know the story and/or have read the book. I really feel like this movie was made for Dune fans rather than the average moviegoing public, but it IS a very hard story to put to film.  Will definitely be taking in second and maybe even third viewings. I want the second half made! The one thing I will give the '84 version over this one is the music by Toto / Brian Eno- that wasn't going to be topped, no how, no way.


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## Mallus (Oct 22, 2021)

Just finished. Marvelous. Need to see it in IMAX.

The juxtaposition of epic scale and intimate scenes adads a dimension simply absent in the book. This film really underscores how Dune is a tragedy: 20 or 30 thousand years in the future and we‘ve learned nothing. The only human truth is power. We’ve turned ourselves into computers and killing machines, and for what?


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 22, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> Wait how else could you pronounce Dune?



In British English the letter u is usually pronounced "yoo" so  you would probably write the British pronunciation d-yoo-n.

It's why the British didn't drop the u in armour, colour etc.

But, given that Herbert wasn't British, one has to assume the US pronunciation was intended.


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## amethal (Oct 22, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> In British English the letter u is usually pronounced "yoo" so  you would probably write the British pronunciation d-yoo-n.
> 
> It's why the British didn't drop the u in armour, colour etc.
> 
> But, given that Herbert wasn't British, one has to assume the US pronunciation was intended.



I doubt there is such a thing as "usually" when it comes to British pronunciation, but where I come from we pronounce it "d-ew-n".

I am reluctant to subject my wife to this film, but on the other hand I dragged her to see the Hobbit and she loved it (much more than I did, even though - or perhaps because - she had never read the book).


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## payn (Oct 22, 2021)

Sorry, I can only picture Peter Griffen now pronouncing d-ew-n


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## Stalker0 (Oct 22, 2021)

My spoiler review 



Spoiler



overall greatly enjoyed it, and my main comparison is the mini series (I don’t remember the original movie).

I loved how they portrayed the voice. The shields were a very cool effect and they did a good job showing how useful they are (at one point a characters take a gun blast to the chest and doesn’t even feel it).  The ornothopter wing effects were very neat. And my god, real lasers…like you see them and go “now THAT is a freakin laser”. Last note here is I find the vision effects well done, they were mysterious but I actually could follow them. One part kd that I really liked was one of Paul’s visions is wrong…he sees future time with him and the man he ultimately kills…showing that he does have some say in which path he goes down.

acting wise I loved Jessica’s performance the best. When Paul is being tested her grief and concern is very visceral, she just sells it. Oscar issacs is awesome of course, and is never in the movie enough.

The music and effects are truly powerful, the sand worm is killer, they do a great job not just showing how the worm itself is dangerous, but the shifting sands around it can be just as deadly. I will say this is a great IMAX movie, I think it does help to sell the scale.

the main critique is the lack of intrigue, as that seems the main price for compressing dune bsck on the big screen. None of the “who betrayed Leto” is there, it’s the dr right away…and that got no build up at all. The barons scheming is really undercut, he definately shows his evil side but we never get to see how cunning he is. I will also say coming from the mini series it’s jarring how such “big moments” in the mini series were just given in the movie. Paul’s idea to become the next emperor…casual throw away line. The fremins secret cache of underground water and their dream of greening Arrakis…put out so casually that I actually wonder if newer audiences even caught what a big deal it is.

So it’s not a perfect movie but it is a grand one, and one worth seeing


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## Zaukrie (Oct 22, 2021)

My thoughts

Good, not great.
Other than Paul and Jessica, there is zero character development. 
I'm not a fan of glossing over everything in Arakeen (sp?).... We really get very little of the fremen there. It had to be done for time, and probably doesn't matter....
It felt epic, but lacking.

I still maintain this should be a series on HBO or Apple+


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## payn (Oct 22, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> My thoughts
> 
> Good, not great.
> Other than Paul and Jessica, there is zero character development.
> ...



Im going in a few hours and these are all my fears for part I.


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## Jmarso (Oct 22, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> My spoiler review
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agree with this.

What's below is not technically spoilers, but I'll spoiler it anyway because some viewers want to go in with zero foreknowledge.



Spoiler



Although relatively coherent, it is a little odd which story points get attention in this version and which are all but ignored. Dr. Yueh's Imperial Conditioning is not mentioned once, making one wonder why he was so trusted to start with. No mention of the abilities of Mentats (human computers), and the roles of Thufir Howatt and Piter DeVries are cut back to almost cameos. The Bene Gesserit and their abilities are addressed, but they have to be as they are essential to the narrative. What is missed, however, is their need for Spice along with that of the Guild Navigators, and the whole politicking between the Bene Gesserit, the Spacing Guild, the Emperor, and the Landsraad.

The trip from Caladan to Arrakis is handled as a jump-cut- you never see a space-fold or hear it mentioned; for the uninitiated, Heighliners might as well travel by warp or hyperspace. There is no real mention of Guild Navigators or the way they are mutated over centuries by the Spice. One thing the movie does well is impart a sense of scale with respect to the various ships and vehicles- they are frakkin' _huge._ You could fit half of starfleet in that Heighliner!

The scene of Paul's Testing by the Reverend Mother, and the way this version handled The Voice, is superlative.


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## Mallus (Oct 22, 2021)

The new movie could definitely use a Third Stage Guild Navigator (in its Industrial Nouveau Fish Tank play set).


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## Aeson (Oct 22, 2021)

I really enjoyed it. The music made it for me. The music fit the scenes like a latex glove. I had no issues with the acting. I liked this Paul. He gave the character more depth.


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## Ath-kethin (Oct 23, 2021)

doctorbadwolf said:


> No I’m confused about what could lead someone to not want to see the movie becauSe they changed jihad to crusade?



I get how they were scared to use "jihad," as silly as that is. But there are a host of alternative terms they could have used, among them "holy war."

Instead, they chose to use "crusade." If there was a worse term they could have chosen, I can't think of one. What it tells me is that the filmmakers deliberately chose to take what is basically a white savior tale and make it somehow _whiter_.

That decision, and the unfortunate judgement call contained within, lets me know a great deal about how they approached and handled the story. And I have consequently lost interest in this project. Reviews I've read have mostly confirmed my call here, too.


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## payn (Oct 23, 2021)

*The skinny:* Epic feel from start to finish in typical Villanueva fashion. Fairly faithful adaption that cuts in places that go mostly unnoticed, but could have used a little more exposition. I actually appreciated the loud as hell film score, maybe even more than the visuals, which are stunning.

*Additional thoughts:*
I loved Paul's little holo projector encyclopedia. I thought it was a great way it introduce exposition to the audience while keeping up the ambiance and not feeling like an info dump narration. I think a few more of these scenes would have helped. "Tell me about the emperor, tell me about House Harkonen, tell me...."

I didnt mind DV scaling back a little on Baron Harkonen. In the novel he has a ton of despicable habits that I dont think are necessary to build him up as a villain. I do wish we got a few more scenes with Harkonen teaching Rabban which would work as excellent exposition in keeping up the ambiance. Also, it would help flesh out the plot more for the uninitiated in Dune.

Also, a scene or two really could have been used to tell the story of Doc Yuewl a bit better. His betrayal is a big deal, but in this film its a blink of an eye.

I liked the scene with the emperor landing on Caladan, but wish we would have gotten to actually see the emperor. I think DV wanted to scale back the political intrigue, but again, it hurt the overall plot structure to the film. Which is my one big criticism of the film. Not enough explanation of what exactly is going on.

I think DV wanted to hand a big present to Dune fans, but he miscalculated the fans love of the lore about mentats and the political structure. In the end, fans of Dune lose a little bit of that fan service, and non-fans are likely to get a little lost in the big picture of Dune.

Just a few comments off the top of my head that stop _Dune_ from being all out epic. Its still a hell of a movie and receives top marks from me in all other areas.


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## Mallus (Oct 23, 2021)

Ath-kethin said:


> Instead, they chose to use "crusade." If there was a worse term they could have chosen, I can't think of one. What it tells me is that the filmmakers deliberately chose to take what is basically a white savior tale and make it somehow _whiter_.



Dune isn’t a white savior narrative. It’s a critique of them written a few decades before the term ‘white savior narrative’ gained traction. Villeneuve’s film honors that.

I should add, “so far”. We’ll see what part 2 brings. Though after watching part 1, I get the impression the second film might end squarely in tragic Dune Messiah territory.


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## Tun Kai Poh (Oct 23, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Dune isn’t a white savior narrative. It’s a critique of them written a few decades before the term ‘white savior narrative’ gained traction. Villeneuve’s film honors that.
> 
> I should add, “so far”. We’ll see what part 2 brings. Though after watching part 1, I get the impression the second film might end squarely in tragic Dune Messiah territory.



From what I understand, Dune Messiah would be film 3. I do want to see them get there, as it'll be a very anti-Hollywood narrative.


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## Umbran (Oct 23, 2021)

So, I just watched it.  Some thoughts from a fan of the book who felt Lynch's version was a train wreck of a film.

Several people are noting the missing lore on mentats, and suchlike.  I have to point out that  those bits are cool worldbuilding, but... they aren't _story_.  They only have a few hours to get though 400+ pages of book, so they cut down to the core plot points.

And still, the result... was kind of ponderous, for me.  I can understand the idea of using lots of time on visuals to get across the expansive nature of the original text, and the visuals are lovely.  I think they interfere with the pacing in a way that doesn't thrill me. 

For example, trying to make a big action scene out of a flight in a dust storm, where you can't see anything's relative positioning, for example, comes off as a way to try to show how powerful the storm was, but the lack of context in a brown haze of dust made it confusing, and made the resolution of the problem seem nonsensical.

The writing was serviceable, the acting was fine.  I think folks forget that the people in the original text are all stilted. Their very cultures are stilted and loaded with formalities, whether Imperial house or Fremen.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 23, 2021)

Ya. I don't think the mentat are missed in a movie version.


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## payn (Oct 23, 2021)

I missed it. I thought it was awesome when Hawat's eyes rolled over and he had an instant answer to a complex mathematical problem. I guess folks can infer what was happening there, but its also nice to get background on how and why house leaders have these experts. It's like the measters from game of thrones to every house. Not something that needs a lot of time onscreen, but a few lines mentioning it would be appreciated.  

Will be interesting to see how things unfold in part II. How much more will we learn about the houses and their politics?


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## Umbran (Oct 23, 2021)

payn said:


> I missed it.




The real question is whether folks who didn't know about it missed it.  "Oh, he's a human calculator or database or something," may be all they really need, all things considered.



payn said:


> Will be interesting to see how things unfold in part II. How much more will we learn about the houses and their politics?




Probably not much.  We have learned that politics is a big thing, but the original book didn't really give details - it is a Harkonen/Atredies conflict, with other houses all offscreen, iirc.


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## Paul Farquhar (Oct 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Probably not much. We have learned that politics is a big thing, but the original book didn't really give details - it is a Harkonen/Atredies conflict, with other houses all offscreen, iirc.



This is an interesting trick for world building. It's in LotR too. You supply just enough detail to _hint _at a bigger picture.


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## Imaculata (Oct 23, 2021)

Ath-kethin said:


> What it tells me is that the filmmakers deliberately chose to take what is basically a white savior tale and make it somehow _whiter_.




What this tells me, is that you didn't understand the story of Dune, which is a complete deconstruction of the savior/messiah story.

Everything about Paul being the supposed savior, is planned... a fiction orchestrated by the Bene Gesserit.


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## payn (Oct 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> The real question is whether folks who didn't know about it missed it.  "Oh, he's a human calculator or database or something," may be all they really need, all things considered.
> 
> 
> 
> Probably not much.  We have learned that politics is a big thing, but the original book didn't really give details - it is a Harkonen/Atredies conflict, with other houses all offscreen, iirc.



Perhaps not the mentats specifically, but most reviews do say, "looks great, but what the hell is going on?" so I think some of these cut details would have helped.

When I said Houses, I should have said Harkonens, Emperor, spacing guild, and the bene geserit.


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## Umbran (Oct 23, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> This is an interesting trick for world building. It's in LotR too. You supply just enough detail to _hint _at a bigger picture.




It is easier in Dune because that most of the politics is irrelevant and distant from the action.



Imaculata said:


> Everything about Paul being the supposed savior, is planned... a fiction orchestrated by the Bene Gesserit.




Yes, it is planned, but no, it isn't really fiction - the Bene Gesserit just didn't understand who was going to get saved from what.  Which makes it less of a deconstruction, and more just a story about how saviors will not be controlled.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 23, 2021)

payn said:


> Perhaps not the mentats specifically, but most reviews do say, "looks great, but what the hell is going on?" so I think some of these cut details would have helped.




As it is, the movie is two and a half hours long.  While any one of these details takes a short time, in total, they're probably half an hour or more of screen time.

Which the critics would then (rightfully) call, "butt-numbingly long," or somesuch.

This is the price of converting to film a work from a different medium that wasn't particularly well suited to it.


----------



## Jmarso (Oct 23, 2021)

What this version really needed was the same cast, director, production values, and an 8-10 part miniseries. Dune is just too hard and involved a story to put to feature film. That said, this was a fantastic effort and worthy of a watch. Especially if you are a fan and already know the story.

Side note: I thought the ornithopters were a bit fanciful for a civilization that obviously controls gravity, but they were pretty cool! In a theater with good Dolby you felt them coming and going in every pore of your body.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> It is easier in Dune because that most of the politics is irrelevant and distant from the action.



So are lots of things referred to in LotR, such as the fall of Gondolin. It's just that Tolkien's "hints of a bigger picture" relate more to history than politics.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 23, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> What this version really needed was the same cast, director, production values, and an 8-10 part miniseries. Dune is just too hard and involved a story to put to feature film.




I'm going to disagree with that.  Dune has an expansive, detailed-filled world... much of which is informative, but not directly relevant to the storyline.  

The actual sequence of events is pretty simple, and they've caught most of what happens so far.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 23, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> I thought the ornithopters were a bit fanciful



I don't think Herbert ever really describes them in detail or explains how they work. It could, for example, be a brand name for an antigrav vehicle.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 23, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> So are lots of things referred to in LotR, such as the fall of Gondolin. It's just that Tolkien's "hints of a bigger picture" relate more to history than politics.




There's a major difference.

If, in Dune, we say there's lots of politics, we have some expectation they might be relevant to the story, as the politics are concurrent with the story, and some of the people in the story are technically involved in said politics.

If, in LotR, Gondolin is mentioned, that is a thing that happened on the order of 3500 years prior to Frodo's journey - we expect it to be relevant in much the same way we expect Egypt conquering Nubia to be directly relevant to the events in the next Fast And Furious movie, which is to say, not at all.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 23, 2021)

Umbran said:


> There's a major difference.
> 
> If, in Dune, we say there's lots of politics, we have some expectation they might be relevant to the story, as the politics are concurrent with the story, and some of the people in the story are technically involved in said politics.
> 
> If, in LotR, Gondolin is mentioned, that is a thing that happened on the order of 3500 years prior to Frodo's journey - we expect it to be relevant in much the same way we expect Egypt conquering Nubia to be directly relevant to the events in the next Fast And Furious movie, which is to say, not at all.



If you think of how you use it for world building in an RPG, or a novel you are reading for the first time for that matter, you don't know which details might be relevant.


----------



## Jmarso (Oct 23, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I don't think Herbert ever really describes them in detail or explains how they work. It could, for example, be a brand name for an antigrav vehicle.



Ornithopters were not an invention of Herbert, but by definition they are not an a-grav sort of vehicle, nor are they depicted as such in the movie. Some of the earliest attempts at powered flight were ornithopters- the silly contraptions with flapping wings that look like they are out of some old Marx Brothers movie.  Here's a wikilink if you are interested in the concept: Ornithopter - Wikipedia.


----------



## Campbell (Oct 23, 2021)

As a fan of cinema, especially camera work it is such a beautiful movie. Damn near every shot was immaculate. The score was amazing. I was really impressed with it from a technical standpoint.

I am still processing what I feel about the storytelling. I like that things are given time to breath. It almost feels more art film than blockbuster.


----------



## J.Quondam (Oct 23, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I don't think Herbert ever really describes them in detail or explains how they work. It could, for example, be a brand name for an antigrav vehicle.



I don't have the books in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Herbert intended them to be actual flapping-wing ornithopters. Here's a bit from some random website that pulls some quotes from the book (I can't doublecheck the veracity of this, though!):


> Ornithopters in Dune​In Frank Herbert's, _Dune_, we are first introduced to the ornithopter by the first Reverend Mother during her tests of Paul, but we don't see it in action or get any description of it until Liet Kynes meets with Duke Leto. The aircraft is described as being similar to an insect that hums softly from the jets running in their idle state, "An unmarked ornithopter squatted nearby, humming softly on standby like a somnolent insect. (Herbert)" We get more evidence to the similarities to an insect and these aircraft from Hawat's perspective among the fremen, "The captured 'thopter took off with a lurching flap of wings, angled upward to the south in a steep, wing-tucked climb." The aircraft's wings are specifically described as flapping wings paralleling that of the ornithopter. A definite description showing the design of _Dune's_ ornithopter is when Duke Leto is trying to save a group of Fremen from a worm on Arrakis, "He broke off as the Duke kicked on the jet brakes. The ship bucked as its tail pods whispered to silence. Stub wings elongated, cupped the air. The craft became a full 'thopter as the Duke banked it, holding the wings to a gentle beat. (Herbert)" The ornithopter is described as cupping the air the same way a bird's flapping would while the wings hold a gentle beat as they flap. A characteristic of these aircraft is their ability to hover similar to a flying insect or hummingbird, "Flame streaked upward to the hovering 'thopters." The other significant description of these aircraft is their use of jet propulsion, "Paul fed more power to the jetpods. The 'thopter banked, sinking them into their seats as a dark wall lifted against the stars ahead. He gave the craft more wing, more power. Another burst of lifting wingbeats and they came out over rocks. (Herbert)" This differs from the general definition of an ornithopter, which relies solely on the flapping action to produce thrust.


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## payn (Oct 23, 2021)

Campbell said:


> As a fan of cinema, especially camera work it is such a beautiful movie. Damn near every shot was immaculate. The score was amazing. I was really impressed with it from a technical standpoint.
> 
> I am still processing what I feel about the storytelling. I like that things are given time to breath. It almost feels more art film than blockbuster.



Agreed. The ambiance is well maintained in myriad of elements from shots to score.


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## Hatmatter (Oct 23, 2021)

I love you all so much! I chuckled reading these incredibly nuanced reviews. Most of you have great points. However, when I sit back and think about it, I would say this film is a tremendous achievement and could at least be in the running to be the first science fiction film to win an Academy Award for best picture. I read the first novel years ago and loved it. I liked the Lynch film, but I just rewatched it yesterday and I have to admit I winced more than once: I am not sure it holds up to what my memory of it was, although it is very admirable. But this Villeneuve film is a true cinematic achievement...so engrossing and taunt with suspense in each moment. Tragic in its proportions!

Cheers and keep 'em rolling!


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## payn (Oct 23, 2021)

What did folks think of the eye color hue? For the sure the least stated of the _Dune _adaptions. I liked it, but I'm not sure if I like it more pronounced better. May get a better exposure in part II.


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## Jmarso (Oct 24, 2021)

It just occurred to me: did this movie even address what causes the Fremens' blue eyes?


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## Mallus (Oct 24, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> It just occurred to me: did this movie even address what causes the Fremens' blue eyes?



Nope.

It also didn’t mention the Great Revolt, the sparing use of lasers, or why the ornithopters instrumentation consisted of dials.

I kinda respect that, actually. The film said “this is the world”, without explanation.


----------



## RangerWickett (Oct 24, 2021)

No, there _was_ a line about spice causing their eyes to be blue.


----------



## Mallus (Oct 24, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> No, there _was_ a line about spice causing their eyes to be blue.



Wow, you’re right. I think it’s Paul‘s filmbook. Even refers to them as the Eyes of Ibad.

Still, the new film favors showing over telling. Or voice-overing.


----------



## Tun Kai Poh (Oct 24, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> Side note: I thought the ornithopters were a bit fanciful for a civilization that obviously controls gravity, but they were pretty cool! In a theater with good Dolby you felt them coming and going in every pore of your body.



It looks like they are consistently not fielding anything with Holtzman field generators (shields, antigrav suspensors) in the desert areas, which fits the fictional conceit that the fields drive worms to frenzy, and sandstorms tend to short them out too. Hence, more primitive tech like ornithopters and balloon-assisted carryalls.


----------



## Tun Kai Poh (Oct 24, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Wow, you’re right. I think it’s Paul‘s filmbook. Even refers to them as the Eyes of Ibad.
> 
> Still, the new film favors showing over telling. Or voice-overing.



Warning: Rant on

"Show rather than tell" is a very Western-centric idea, which excludes writers from non-Western backgrounds who _have_ to tell to explain what a teh tarik is, or why you have to tabik hormat when you visit your in-laws during Hari Raya.

And although the style wasn't _created_ as a CIA plot to expand Western hegemony in English literature, the CIA literally did promote it in some sort of belief that it would oppose Communism. People assume that "show don't tell" is automatically a good thing because that was what was taught by institutions like the Iowa Writer's Workshop.

There _are_ other modes of storytelling drawn from all over the world, which are just as valid as "show don't tell," like oral storytelling cultures and Dickinson's "tell it slant." People raised in the West tend to forget this.


Rant over


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## Mallus (Oct 24, 2021)

Tun Kai Poh said:


> And although the style wasn't _created_ as a CIA plot to expand Western hegemony in English literature, the CIA literally did promote it in some sort of belief that it would oppose Communism. People assume that "show don't tell" is automatically a good thing because that was what was taught by institutions like the Iowa Writer's Workshop.



Oh sure. And the CIA played a role in promoting Abstract Expressionism (of all things)  because it was important to them that New York be the capital of the art world in the 20th century, not Moscow or a state in the Soviet Bloc.

Cold War competition is a fascinating subject. It’s probably why I like the musical Chess so much!


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## Umbran (Oct 24, 2021)

Tun Kai Poh said:


> Rant over




When "show, don't tell" was explained to me when studying literature and creative writing in college, it became quickly clear that it is an _aid_ to understanding cultural elements I'm not familiar with, not a detriment. 

Because it is perhaps more accurately, but more clumsily, stated as "give a demonstration, not a lecture". 

So, if you have to inform the reader about teh tarik, don't give us a paragraph that can be found in wikipedia, or have one character say, "this is a tea drink made with condensed milk" - make a scene in the work where a character lives through the sensory experience, in its proper social context.  Describe the act of its preparation, and the emotions it evokes for your character.  "Show, don't tell," is an admonition to have your characters _live the thing_ in question for us, so that we may understand it, rather than have them speak a definition.

Because, if you just give a dry definition of teh tarik, we will have data, but no real _understanding_.  We might gain a glimmer of understanding if you give us a way to live it vicariously through your character, from the character's perspective, rather than our own.

I while back, I read a bit of fantasy built on Turkish and Egyptian forms, rather than European, and the author's example of coffee in the culture was helpful - especially because I don't drink coffee.


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## Mercurius (Oct 24, 2021)

Umbran said:


> There's a major difference.
> 
> If, in Dune, we say there's lots of politics, we have some expectation they might be relevant to the story, as the politics are concurrent with the story, and some of the people in the story are technically involved in said politics.
> 
> If, in LotR, Gondolin is mentioned, that is a thing that happened on the order of 3500 years prior to Frodo's journey - we expect it to be relevant in much the same way we expect Egypt conquering Nubia to be directly relevant to the events in the next Fast And Furious movie, which is to say, not at all.



A nitpick here, from the little Tolkien nerd in me: The Fall of Gondolin actually happened 6,500 years before Frodo's journey as it was near the end of the First Age and the LoTR occurs at the end of the Third Age.

But I think that is a poor comparison, because the story in the Lord of the Rings is deeply embedded within a larger story, the story of Middle-earth itself and larger war against Morgoth and Sauron.

Not to derail, though.


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## Umbran (Oct 24, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> A nitpick here, from the little Tolkien nerd in me: The Fall of Gondolin actually happened 6,500 years before Frodo's journey as it was near the end of the First Age and the LoTR occurs at the end of the Third Age.




It being longer is all the better.



Mercurius said:


> But I think that is a poor comparison, because the story in the Lord of the Rings is deeply embedded within a larger story, the story of Middle-earth itself and larger war against Morgoth and Sauron.




The point is that by the time we get to Frodo, the _details_ of that larger story aren't impactful to the events of the moment.  You can read the entire LotR, not even notice a mention of Gondolin, and not have that impact your understanding of current events one bit.


----------



## Mercurius (Oct 24, 2021)

Umbran said:


> It being longer is all the better.
> 
> 
> 
> The point is that by the time we get to Frodo, the _details_ of that larger story aren't impactful to the events of the moment.  You can read the entire LotR, not even notice a mention of Gondolin, and not have that impact your understanding of current events one bit.



I understand from the perspective of understanding and enjoying the LotR itself. But the problem is, this bypasses what makes Tolkien stand out: that is, what makes him Tolkien, and singular. The entire story, from the Music of the Ainur to sailing from the Gray Havens, is holistic. Everything "serves" or enhances the entire vision of Tolkien (or of Iluvatar). Or to use his term, everything is part of the Music of the Ainur itself.

This is why I think Tolkien is still an unsurpassed world-builder - the archetype for fantasists, if you will (I use the word _unsurpassed _deliberately, as I would not even try to rank world-builders, but just to say that--like Bond--nobody does it _better). _Not only is everything within Middle-earth "Tolkienian," but it embedded within a larger story, the story of Arda itself. There is a sense of no extraneous bits, nothing misplaced.

So it is not that one needs to know about the Fall of Gondolin to understand or enjoy the events of LotR, but that Tolkien's world-building provided depths and layers, and everything was holistically related in a way that Egypt and Fast and Furious are not. And further, it does have some bearing on the details of the current events, in a similar way that a storm or a tsunami is not merely the event of it crashing on the shore, but an entire process of building up. Gondolin is part of that building up, at least in relation to the events of LotR (one could also say that it is its own climax).


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## Warpiglet-7 (Oct 24, 2021)

I was bored by Dune in high school—required reading.

i watched the 2021 Dune a few nights ago.

I enjoyed it.  I don’t like TV much and relatively few movies but found the world alien and different as intended.  Some things were odd—-their tech did not seem 10,000 years newer but whatever.

it was visually cool ans I liked the r acting.  

I was pissed to learn part 1 meant what it said.  I wanted to see more!

now I think I will go back and read again.  Maybe all the way through this time and not under duress.

the concessions made with explaining things did not bother me.  To fit this in a somewhat reasonable time and still have the slow panning visuals and time to just behold things required it.

I got enough as a newbie.  This dude might be a savior and these people might already know it.


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## Umbran (Oct 24, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> I understand from the perspective of understanding and enjoying the LotR itself. But the problem is, this bypasses what makes Tolkien stand out: that is, what makes him Tolkien, and singular. The entire story, from the Music of the Ainur to sailing from the Gray Havens, is holistic.




Yes and no.  In no way was it _created_ as a holistic whole.  Indeed, a great deal of it was published posthumously, edited by his son.  Tolkien was not like JMS, with the whole arc worked out in most detail before he began.


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## Tonguez (Oct 24, 2021)

finally watched it and got the same impression as I got from the book - Its long and flat, theres no high points but its still interesting enough that I watched it all rather than thinking about what else I could be spending my time on.

Would have like to see more worm but will have to wait for part 2


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## Retreater (Oct 24, 2021)

Might wait until (if?) Part 2 actually gets greenlit. From what I've heard this is an incomplete story, not satisfying, etc. Might be like other epics that are never completed (Eragon, John Carter, Golden Compass, etc)


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## payn (Oct 24, 2021)

Retreater said:


> Might wait until (if?) Part 2 actually gets greenlit. From what I've heard this is an incomplete story, not satisfying, etc. Might be like other epics that are never completed (Eragon, John Carter, Golden Compass, etc)



Dune has made back its production budget so its heading in the profit direction. Part 2 will get greenlit soon. Go see it, its a good movie.


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## Retreater (Oct 24, 2021)

payn said:


> Dune has made back its production budget so its heading in the profit direction. Part 2 will get greenlit soon. Go see it, its a good movie.



Well if it's on HBO I can. Not going to the movies just yet.


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## Mallus (Oct 24, 2021)

The thing about Paul not being a savior figure has less to do with the Missionaria Protectiva propaganda campaign and more to do with Paul being a godawful savior.


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## Umbran (Oct 24, 2021)

Retreater said:


> Well if it's on HBO I can. Not going to the movies just yet.




It is on HBO MAX.  That's how I saw it as well.


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## Marc_C (Oct 24, 2021)

Saw it this afternoon. My wife and I really liked it. The Lynch version has finally been erased from my brain. I screamed at the screen for more when the movie ended! Let's hope they make Part Two.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 25, 2021)

Retreater said:


> Might be like other epics that are never completed (Eragon, John Carter, Golden Compass, etc)




Golden Compass/His Dark Materials at least got a proper retelling as a 3-season TV series, so that is no longer a cliffhanger.


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## aco175 (Oct 25, 2021)

Watched the 1984 version Friday night and the new, 2021 version last night.  I did not miss the self-talking dialogue, but think if I never seen the old one I would be missing some things having never read the book.  The scenery was good and casting was fine.  Not sure why they did not film both parts all at once.


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## Mercurius (Oct 25, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yes and no.  In no way was it _created_ as a holistic whole.  Indeed, a great deal of it was published posthumously, edited by his son.  Tolkien was not like JMS, with the whole arc worked out in most detail before he began.



Who or what is "JMS?" 

And of course it wasn't created as a holistic whole. It was created bit by bit. But the world and story 'existed' before the LotR was written, and thus LotR grew out of an already existing, organic, and holistic world. And yes, he continued to work on it for another 30 years after he finished LotR, deepening it, fleshing out details that never made it into LotR.  Actually, he wrote an excellent story, Leaf By Niggle, about his never-ending creative process, how perfection is never achieved.

But one of the things I'm trying to get at is that, from Tolkien's perspective, and I think from the perspective of most diehard Tolkien fans (or Tolkienistas, as I think Michael Moorcock called them, or was it China Mieville?), LotR was secondary to his larger artistic process. His magnum opus wasn't LotR or the Hobbit or even the Silmarillion. It was Middle-earth, and those were just expressions of it on paper. Whereas, to use your example, Fast and Furious is its own thing. Certainly there is a body of "lore" that has been accumulated from all the movies, and I'm guessing someone has made a F&F wiki (I've never even seen a single F&F movie, so have no idea). But all of the F&F universe was created to serve the story, the films being all that really matters; they _are _the prima materia. Tolkien's books--not to mention the films--were expressions of his artistic project, not the thing itself. And I think that's partially why Fall of Gondolin matters, at least if one wants to really experience the heart of Tolkien's creation, his own prima materia: Middle-earth itself.


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## RangerWickett (Oct 25, 2021)

Mercurius said:


> Who or what is "JMS?"



J Michael Straczynski, the show-runner for Babylon 5. He famously was the first person to write every episode of a whole season of TV.


----------



## AtomicPope (Oct 25, 2021)

embee said:


> That's pretty much the general consensus.
> 
> Dune Messiah is very good. Children of Dune is quite good. God Emperor of Dune is good but has really sort of lost the thread. And Heretics and Chapterhouse are drek.



God Emperor of Dune felt like Herbert was trying to close the main plot threads so he could move on.  Not to mention, explore themes that were glossed over in the previous three books.  I really liked GEoD for those reasons.  It was really the end of a era for me.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 25, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> J Michael Straczynski, the show-runner for Babylon 5. He famously was the first person to write every episode of a whole season of TV.




More relevant here is that he had the overall, five-season story arc of Babylon 5 conceived and set before production began on the first episode.


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## John R Davis (Oct 25, 2021)

I really liked it. The 1984-Stilgar was way cooler.

My main nickpick is the cool Nouns all sound a bit Anglified. 

I'm pretty sure they mention Jihad


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## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 25, 2021)

I finally watched it last night. Avoided reviews and spoilers (is that a thing for movie based on a book that already has a movie?). 

Setting- at home, large TV, very good sound system cranked all the way up, in the dark.

Going in- I love Denis Villenueve. Think he is one of the visually inventive directors of our time. Sometimes I worry he is a little style > substance, but still. I've read the Dune books (up to a point, I petered out after the third or forth) and saw the Lynch movie, but it's been decades.

Reaction- absolutely loved it. 

*Let me start with the good/great*. The visuals were absolutely insanely good. So good I wish I saw it on a giant screen. Arrakis is shot with the loving detail of Lawrence in Arabia. The ships are pitch-perfect. The interiors are amazing and reflect something both hyper-futuristic and incredibly old. Even the smallest details, from the costume designs to the shields, are perfect. And the casting is marvelous.

....and the sound. Oh, the sound. I listened to it with my system cranked up, and the music, the ambient sound, the mix, was so good. So ... immersive. Absolutely spot on for me. The acting worked too. Most importantly, there was a lot of "show, don't tell." Outside of the very opening, there wasn't a ton of exposition dump. For a movie with a complicated plot and dream sequences and a lot of factions to take it, there's a lot of silence, and the dialogue is only there when needed. I appreciate that. It's sort of the opposite of a Tarantino movie- it's not quips, and it's not about the dialogue. This is a visual and audio feast.

*The not so good.* The worst part is that it's Part 1. Sure, it ends at a decent point, but still .... imagine if you saw _The Two Towers _in the theaters, there wasn't a first movie, and there may or may not be a sequel. The person I was watching with turned to me and said, "Wait, that's the ending? We have to wait two or three years for another one?" 

The other thing that, upon reflection today, wasn't as great is that the choices made by Villenueve (which were almost all correct) also lead to certain shortcomings. For example, the Sarduakar. The introduction was so cool. But then they were a big "So what?" I have the vague recollections from reading the books why they were such a big deal, but other than a stray bit of dialogue when they were introduced (which was an incredibly cool introduction) and a little bit later (you know when you've encountered them), you have no idea that they're special- worse, there is nothing in the movie to indicate that they are special- it's an example where there was a "tell, don't show" that didn't even "tell" very well, and certainly didn't show! This is emblematic of the choice that get made when reducing a rich text to a movie (or even reducing half of a rich text to a movie) .


Overall, though, absolutely loved it. I would be crushed if I don't get to see how it ends.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 25, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> The other thing that, upon reflection today, wasn't as great is that the choices made by Villenueve (which were almost all correct) also lead to certain shortcomings. For example, the Sarduakar. The introduction was so cool. But then they were a big "So what?" I have the vague recollections from reading the books why they were such a big deal, but other than a stray bit of dialogue when they were introduced (which was an incredibly cool introduction) and a little bit later (you know when you've encountered them), you have no idea that they're special- worse, there is nothing in the movie to indicate that they are special- it's an example where there was a "tell, don't show" that didn't even "tell" very well, and certainly didn't show! This is emblematic of the choice that get made when reducing a rich text to a movie (or even reducing half of a rich text to a movie) .



There is actually a scene in which we learn the Sarduakar are the best of the best on the Emperors planet. The Harkonnens need them to go against the elite trained by Duncan. Considering they completely destroy the Atreides family during the invasion I would say they are shown to be total bad ass. It's very much 'shown'.


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## Snarf Zagyg (Oct 25, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> There is actually a scene in which we learn the Sarduakar are the best of the best on the Emperors planet. The Harkonnens need them to go against the elite trained by Duncan. Considering they completely destroy the Atreides family during the invasion I would say they are shown to be total bad ass. It's very much 'shown'.




That's what I was saying, though. We have that dialogue. Then we have the additional Momoa (heh) line later. 

But we don't get real differentiation to show us them being totally awesome. I was waiting for it! Visually and plot-wise the invasion seemed like it succeeded because of surprise, chicanery (ahem... you know what I mean), and overwhelming force. There was never a moment visually when I remember seeing the Sarduakar do something impressive ... not even in comparison to the Harkonnen.

....maybe that one scene where the Harkonnen troops were advancing, and the Sarduakar landed behind, but it didn't work for me. I just never saw/felt their relative strength. Heck, Aquaman was taking them out with no problem.  

Again, this was my 2 cents.


----------



## embee (Oct 25, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> There is actually a scene in which we learn the Sarduakar are the best of the best on the Emperors planet. The Harkonnens need them to go against the elite trained by Duncan. Considering they completely destroy the Atreides family during the invasion I would say they are shown to be total bad ass. It's very much 'shown'.



But that's the thing...

They're not from Emperor's Shaddam's planet. They're from Salusa Secundus, a prison planet. The point being that they are raised in an impossibly harsh environment where only the absolute strongest, most savage, and most ruthless survive - with the obvious parallel being the Fremen of Arrakis. 

The sad truth is that Dune, like Foundation and The Silmarillion, is a landmark work of science fiction that is so dependent on lore and internal dialogue that it is unfilmable.


----------



## payn (Oct 25, 2021)

embee said:


> But that's the thing...
> 
> They're not from Emperor's Shaddam's planet. They're from Salusa Secundus, a prison planet. The point being that they are raised in an impossibly harsh environment where only the absolute strongest, most savage, and most ruthless survive - with the obvious parallel being the Fremen of Arrakis.
> 
> The sad truth is that Dune, like Foundation and The Silmarillion, is a landmark work of science fiction that is so dependent on lore and internal dialogue that it is unfilmable.



I dont think _Dune_ is unfilmable. I think the format of film is inferior to that of a series. Warner Brothers made that call (again) and they missed having another _Game of Thrones_ on their hands. Of course, we likely wouldn't get the awesome visuals and sound ambiance that DV created for us, but I guess there are always going to be trade offs.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 25, 2021)

Real lasers. Now that was scary!


----------



## Imaculata (Oct 25, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> *The not so good.* The worst part is that it's Part 1. Sure, it ends at a decent point, but still .... imagine if you saw _The Two Towers _in the theaters, there wasn't a first movie, and there may or may not be a sequel.




I saw all 3 lord of the rings movies in the theater when they came out, and had to wait for years to see the story completed. After Fellowship, it wasn't immediately guaranteed that the other two movies would follow. Same with the Star Wars prequels. I've honestly never had a problem with it.


----------



## payn (Oct 25, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I saw all 3 lord of the rings movies in the theater when they came out, and had to wait for years to see the story completed. After Fellowship, it wasn't immediately guaranteed that the other two movies would follow. Same with the Star Wars prequels. I've honestly never had a problem with it.



Yeap, this always comes up. I remember leaving the theater after _Fellowship of the Ring_ and a bunch of folks talking about, "how can it end like this?"


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 25, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I saw all 3 lord of the rings movies in the theater when they came out, and had to wait for years to see the story completed. After Fellowship, it wasn't immediately guaranteed that the other two movies would follow. Same with the Star Wars prequels. I've honestly never had a problem with it.



Same with the original Star Wars Trilogy. I had to wait for Empire Strikes Back. Then a million SW fans cried out 'How could it end like this?' It was a very dark period for fans.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 25, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> ....and the sound. Oh, the sound. I listened to it with my system cranked up, and the music, the ambient sound, the mix, was so good. So ... immersive. Absolutely spot on for me.




So, a comment - watching at home, without a super-awesome sound system...

This, like many movies, had a an audio balance problem for lower-end speakers - much of the dialog was quiet and intimate, but the explosions were not.  Cranking up the volume to hear the speech led to it being _VERY LOUD_ much of the rest of the time.  



Snarf Zagyg said:


> *The not so good.*
> ...
> For example, the Sarduakar. The introduction was so cool. But then they were a big "So what?" I have the vague recollections from reading the books why they were such a big deal, but other than a stray bit of dialogue when they were introduced (which was an incredibly cool introduction) and a little bit later (you know when you've encountered them), you have no idea that they're special- worse, there is nothing in the movie to indicate that they are special- it's an example where there was a "tell, don't show" that didn't even "tell" very well, and certainly didn't show! This is emblematic of the choice that get made when reducing a rich text to a movie (or even reducing half of a rich text to a movie) .




Yeah, this is a thing that we can get in books that doesn't translate well into shorter formats, and leads to The Worf Effect.  In shorter forms, we often don't get to establish how badass various people are independently.  



Spoiler: examples in the movie



So, we get Duncan Idaho positioned as a badass, but the main thing he gets used for is to show that, yeah, he's badass, but the Sardaukar, as a unit, are moreso.  

Duncan Idaho and Gurney Halleck both have a bit of this problem  - their stints on the show are short enough to question the use of such high-profile actors.[/color]


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## Stalker0 (Oct 25, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I saw all 3 lord of the rings movies in the theater when they came out, and had to wait for years to see the story completed. After Fellowship, it wasn't immediately guaranteed that the other two movies would follow. Same with the Star Wars prequels. I've honestly never had a problem with it.



Well considering that all 3 movies were shot together, the first movie would have had to really bomb for the others to not come out


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## Stalker0 (Oct 25, 2021)

payn said:


> I dont think _Dune_ is unfilmable. I think the format of film is inferior to that of a series. Warner Brothers made that call (again) and they missed having another _Game of Thrones_ on their hands. Of course, we likely wouldn't get the awesome visuals and sound ambiance that DV created for us, but I guess there are always going to be trade offs.



In the new world of remakes and shifts into various media, do you really think another dune miniseries is off the table if the movies do well?


----------



## Janx (Oct 25, 2021)

Meh.

I hadn't read the books, but I'd seen snippets of the original movie over the years to vaguely know what "Mua Dib" means.

The visuals and sound were nice. But we got sold an incomplete story with no assurance there'd be more.

Bautista has been learning to act (in real life, he talks about it).  This character did not feel like Drax dressed up. Good.

The characters were likable enough, but they all got axed too soon for me to care.  Like "oh no, Mr. Awesome's dead. Moving on."  

The climax of the film was crap. A storm where nobody did anything. And some running from a worm. Oh wait, no the climax was that dude calling out his boss for a fight, right after they got the newcomers sorted, for no actual good reason. Honor my arse. It was bad timing and a waste of water.

And that was it. a quick fight so Paul can prove himself kind of. then let's go, the credits are rolling.

Meh.


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## JThursby (Oct 25, 2021)

embee said:


> The sad truth is that Dune...is a landmark work of science fiction that is so dependent on lore and internal dialogue that it is unfilmable.





embee said:


> So, having watched Dune (2021), I'm not overly impressed with the writing or the acting. As pertains to the writing, enormous liberties were taken with the script. It's, at least in my opinion, a very dumbed-down version of Dune.



Did we watch the same movie?  This film was an absolute masterpiece and one of the best adaptations I've ever seen, possibly the best (up there with Amazon's _Good Omens_).  The characters, setting and themes are translated to the silver screen with such elegance that this movie could functionally replace the book when combined with the inevitable Part Two.

If what people wanted was a remake of David Lynch's _Dune_ movie then I can see why they would come away disappointed, since this movie is almost it's opposite: it's slow, deliberate, subtle and self serious, while the David Lynch version is campy, self aware shlock. This movie is not nostalgic for the original adaptation or that era of hollywood science fiction.

I've seen lots of accusations by critics that this movie has no characterization and no acting in it, and that the top shelf cinematography and effects were put there as a distraction from this supposed lack of substance.  To those critics, I would ask them what the hell did they think Paul and Jessica were doing the whole movie?  This movie has their emotional conflicts as the center of the movie's pathos. 



Spoiler: Spoilers for the entire movie.



Jessica has to continually battle with her two conflicting priorities between a member of the Bene Gesserit and Paul's mother, and the way Rebecca Furgeson shows all the little ways these two responsibilities pull at her emotional state is Oscar worthy.  As for Paul, he experiences an emotional arc that serves as the three act structure of this movie.  In the beginning of the movie there is deliberate contrast shown between the promise of incredible future power to Paul (political, martial, and "supernatural") and the fact that Paul has no say in being bestowed this power.  The Act 2 crisis is the extermination of house Atreties, with Paul knowing there's nothing he could have done to prevent any of it.  He even has a breakdown as he realizes the horrible harm he will cause in the future; in that moment, he isn't the most powerful man in the universe, his power of prescience only convinces him that the universe is deterministic and preordained, that he isn't capable of making real decisions, that he's doomed to simply be a tool of fate.  As he journeys in the Desert in the third act he comes to realize that much of his visions aren't literal, that there is room for interpretation in them and that he needs to examine them thoughtfully to discover the actual future.  Pauls' emotional arc in the movie concludes with him realizing that despite being gifted with every possible advantage and power the human race could ever dream up, it's in his human fallibility that he finds the most comfort, because it means he has the ability to either succeed or fail and have real agency.  Paul is more complete and happy as a man than he is a God, and it sets up the character's eventual downfall when people do treat him as a God, which is ironically a diminishment.  Since the movie only got to cover the first half of the book, using Paul's character progression to frame the movie was a savvy move, as the movie would have to work as both a singular film and the first part of a larger saga.  I found the way the movie portrayed Paul's inner dialogue and emotional journey both masterfully done and incredibly faithful to the book.  The director and Paul's actor Timothee Chalamet did a great job translating all of this to film, and I find calling the acting in this movie bad/wooden/nonexistent is a bad take and a disservice to the artistry on display.


----------



## payn (Oct 25, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> In the new world of remakes and shifts into various media, do you really think another dune miniseries is off the table if the movies do well?



I dont, but I think starting with a film isnt the best way to jumpstart a franchise. I mean, you are using up the best material right away. I dont know anybody who cares about the upcoming _Game of Thrones_ spinoff. Only the really invested fans want to see that deep into the world. Will people show up for a Dune series that doesnt include Maud 'dib? Especially, after the film all but wrote off the empire as just background stuff?


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## Stalker0 (Oct 25, 2021)

For those who care, dune got a 40 million domestic weekend opener (which puts it at 220 million total from previous international releases). It’s a solid opener and the movie is maintaining good hype…but considering it’s budget AND the marketing expenses that went into it…there’s no guarantee yet of a sequel.

the next few weeks (and the HBO max numbers) will determine if the movie has the legs to justify another big investment


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## Stalker0 (Oct 25, 2021)

payn said:


> I dont know anybody who cares about the upcoming _Game of Thrones_ spinoff.



I would argue that’s more to do with the horrific last season that tanked the enthusiasm of the fanbase. If they had nailed the landing i think people would be screaming for that sequel


----------



## payn (Oct 25, 2021)

JThursby said:


> I've seen lots of accusations by critics that this movie has no characterization and no acting in it, and that the top shelf cinematography and effects were put there as a distraction from this supposed lack of substance.  To those critics, I would ask them what the hell did they think Paul and Jessica were doing the whole movie to them?  This movie has their emotional conflicts as the center of the movie's pathos.



This has become a meme for Denis Villeneuve films. You can scrub out _Dune_ and put in _Arrival_ or _BR2049_ and match critical reviews perfectly.


----------



## payn (Oct 25, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> For those who care, dune got a 40 million domestic weekend opener. It’s a solid opener and the movie is maintaining good hype…but considering it’s budget AND the marketing expenses that went into it…there’s no guarantee yet of a sequel.
> 
> the next few weeks (and the HBO max numbers) will determine if the movie has the legs to justify another big investment



Yeah the WB execs are real cagey about the streaming numbers. Apparently, streaming has a big impact on future decisions, but nobody know how those impact the decisions. I mean, with box office you know how a film performs but the streamasphere is a mystery for now.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 25, 2021)

payn said:


> Yeah the WB execs are real cagey about the streaming numbers. Apparently, streaming has a big impact on future decisions, but nobody know how those impact the decisions. I mean, with box office you know how a film performs but the streamasphere is a mystery for now.



Yeah the billion dollar questions as the “streaming wars” continue:

1) how much product value do you need on the shelf to grow customers?

2) how much product value do you to need to maintain customers?

streaming is such a different beast from movies…movies give you a direct basis for success, either people pay movie to see your movie or they don’t see it.

with streaming there is the first obvious question: how many people watched X…but that doesn’t actually mean anything in financial terms. It’s “did people join my service to see dune” or “did people stay on my service to watch dune” or “people are joining hbomax and the principal reason is the simultaneous releases” etc etc


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## embee (Oct 25, 2021)

Umbran said:


> This, like many movies, had a an audio balance problem for lower-end speakers



You can blame technological "improvements" for that.

Flat-panel screens prioritize thinness. The trade-off is in the speakers. 

For starters, the speakers have to be able to fit in the panel, meaning that they are going to be fairly weak to begin with. Then, the speakers have to fit in the unit's geometry, resulting in them either being pointed downward or towards the rear.

The only solution is to go with an external sound solution - either surround or soundbar.


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## JThursby (Oct 25, 2021)

payn said:


> This has become a meme for Denis Villeneuve films. You can scrub out _Dune_ and put in _Arrival_ or _BR2049_ and match critical reviews perfectly.



I know, and it makes me sad and confused.  Being this divergant from the critical concensious makes me feel like I'm an idiot for overlooking something, but I genuinely think critics have been poo-pooing this man's work for the wrong reasons.  I hope studios keep Denis Villeneuve working despite critics largely labeling him as a style over substance director because he's made nothing but quality.  I want him to be a success story of a director instead of another tragic tale of overlooked talent.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 25, 2021)

JThursby said:


> I know, and it makes me sad and confused.  Being this divergant from the critical concensious makes me feel like I'm an idiot for overlooking something, but I genuinely think critics have been poo-pooing this man's work for the wrong reasons.  I hope studios keep Denis Villeneuve working despite critics largely labeling him as a style over substance director because he's made nothing but quality.  I want him to be a success story of a director instead of another tragic tale of overlooked talent.



If it's any consolation I have a university degree in Cinema and Film Making. I don't agree with these 'critics' of style over substances. It's like saying Kurosawa and Mastroianni have no substance. Just disregard them.

Villeneuve is a great visionary and cinematographer in a similar way that John Ford filmed his Westerns. Long atmospheric shots of scenery with 2/3 of sky, wide horizons and minuscule characters. His movies have substance and style. It's the best of both.


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## Umbran (Oct 25, 2021)

embee said:


> The only solution is to go with an external sound solution - either surround or soundbar.




Yeah, I'm aware of the design issues.  

Lots of external solutions exist - but I haven't found one that plays well with multiple sources (like, a Roku, a DVR, and an XBox, and a PC all connected to the same TV).  Unless you shell out for an amp to handle them all, you have to play the game of "which speakers do I use for this one"?


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## Marc_C (Oct 25, 2021)

“I’m smiling,” Warner Bros. president of domestic distribution Jeff Goldstein said on Sunday morning. “Exhibitors are thrilled. The best part is, fans are loving what they’re seeing. They’re loving the big-screen experience. It’s been a winner of a weekend for movie-lovers.”

In an interview with _Variety_ this week, WarnerMedia chair Ann Sarnoff said plans for the sequel will be based on “the entirety of what ‘Dune’ can do for the company, including HBO Max.” She added, “The story in itself sets up for a sequel. The production is so amazing and the storytelling is so compelling that it’s not going to be judged on box office alone.”

Source: ‘Dune’ Opens to $40 Million at the Box Office. Strong Enough for a Sequel?


----------



## Tonguez (Oct 25, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> There is actually a scene in which we learn the Sarduakar are the best of the best on the Emperors planet. The Harkonnens need them to go against the elite trained by Duncan. Considering they completely destroy the Atreides family during the invasion I would say they are shown to be total bad ass. It's very much 'shown'.



Not really, seeing that scene I just thought “okay Dune stormtroopers” there was nothing to say they were any more ‘elite‘ than Duncan Idaho and the other Atreides fighters


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## payn (Oct 26, 2021)

Sounds like no sequel announced yet because Legendary owns the cinematic rights. Legendry folks not happy about WB dual releasing films in 2021. My guess is they are working out the contract for the future at the moment.


----------



## Herschel (Oct 26, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> I would argue that’s more to do with the horrific last season that tanked the enthusiasm of the fanbase. If they had nailed the landing i think people would be screaming for that sequel




Meh, they were always going to have issues ending it because all the whiny maggot fandumb factions who weren't going to be happy unless their fanfic ending was the show's. It became fashionable to pile on and while a couple of things may have felt rushed, it made sense in a Martin-esque way.


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## Morrus (Oct 26, 2021)

Going to see it tomorrow night. Haven’t read the books or seen the older film, but I’m excited to see the adventure of Dune (which I assume is the name of the main character).


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## Marc_C (Oct 26, 2021)

Jeff Goldstein, distribution chief for Warner Bros. "Once we get out of the pandemic, if we have a movie like this, clearly you'd want to go into theatres first. There's no question of that."

"Goldstein estimated the film would have debuted with *approximately 20 per cent more* in box office had it not also been streaming simultaneously. (The studio didn't release streaming figures.)"

Source CBC.ca: https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/despite-hybrid-release-dune-draws-well-1.6223948


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## wicked cool (Oct 26, 2021)

Ok i went in to this knowing hardly anything about the previous movie (i tried to watch the original a few years back and its bad)/didnt read books

things i liked 
Oscar Isaac was probably the best performer in the movie and the beard works! could totally see him being cast in a medieval movie


things i dont understand
Vladmir- Why does he setup Letos family? Dont want to spoil things but his servant gives a look when the doors close but then all is ok? 
the planet itself-Do the people such as Thufir knowingly hide how bad things are from Leto? Are the worms (one in particular judging Paul ? why was it looking at him?)
 Was Pauls battle with Stilgars people in the books? 
Josh Brolins character. I think i lost track of what happened to him 
Who was Momoas character? how was he tied into the chain of command


things i didnt like
it was slow at times. Lots times battles seem over and then new waves just spring up.
shields and darts . battles made no sense 
One minute you need a toob in your nose and then sometimes you dont 
the thumper? was that supposed to mimic the rabbit? seriously its like a whale chasing an ant to food? 
it wasnt really explained why one group was motivated to destroy the other? Theres this false honor where you cant do something but then they break it anyway 

I give the movie 4/10. Its not something i would recommend. It is not as good as the first few seasons of GOT. its not a good war movie. I was never on the edge of my seat. i wasnt wowed by any special effects


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## aco175 (Oct 26, 2021)

There are parts that could have been explained better to those who have not read the books.  The older movie did some of this with the characters talking to themselves in their head and the movie-goer hearing it, but that felt a bit corny.  The original movie wrapped up in like 20 minutes from where this movie left off.  I assume the 2nd movie coming will expand on the 2 years Paul spends training the people and hopefully more on what it means to the rest of the galaxy.


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## payn (Oct 26, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> Ok i went in to this knowing hardly anything about the previous movie (i tried to watch the original a few years back and its bad)/didnt read books
> 
> things i liked
> Oscar Isaac was probably the best performer in the movie and the beard works! could totally see him being cast in a medieval movie
> ...



All of this is explained in the book. Its very difficult to get that all out in a 2.5 or even two 2.5 hour movies. 

*Things you dont understand:*
Harkonen has been enemies with the Atredies for a long time. The growing influence of Leto finally hit the Emperor's radar so he decided to help set a trap.  
The Fremen are like an occupied people. Some help, others dont. They have a prophesy about an off worlder that will save them. They think it might be Paul.
Yes, the fight with Stilger's people and death duel are in the book.
Brolin's character Gurney was lost in the fog of war. Maybe he is still alive?
Momoa was Duncan Idaho. A certain ranking member and trusted advisor to house Atredies. 

*Things you dont like:*
The shields repel any fast moving object like a bullet or laser. You have to move in slowly to penetrate the shield. The darts seek their target and then slowly penetrate.
The stil suit use was a bit inconsistent. In the main city its need is not great. Out in the desert it is crucial. 
Worms are just territorial and seek out disturbances its not about food.
The politics the director and writers decided to forgo explain the betrayals and war.


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## Marc_C (Oct 26, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Going to see it tomorrow night. Haven’t read the books or seen the older film, but I’m excited to see the adventure of Dune (which I assume is the name of the main character).



He is also known a Crocodile Dune-dee.


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## Morrus (Oct 26, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> He is also known a Crocodile Dune-dee.



It’s weird that he’s called Dune and also he lives on the planet Dune.


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## Marc_C (Oct 26, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> Ok i went in to this knowing hardly anything about the previous movie (i tried to watch the original a few years back and its bad)/didnt read books
> 
> things i liked
> Oscar Isaac was probably the best performer in the movie and the beard works! could totally see him being cast in a medieval movie
> ...



When I saw the Lynch movie when it came out I didn't understand much. I decided to read the Dune book to dig deeper into the universe of Dune.


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## ART! (Oct 26, 2021)

Saw this Sunday in IMAX with the wife and kids, and we all _loved_ it. Villeneuve was the right person for this job.

Had only read the first book decades ago, remembered almost nothing, but wasn't confused by anything. It held my attention firmly throughout. The scale of everything was mesmerizing.

I will, however, be refering to IMAX as _SuperLoud-o-Scope_ from now on.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 26, 2021)

Herschel said:


> Meh, they were always going to have issues ending it because all the whiny maggot fandumb factions who weren't going to be happy unless their fanfic ending was the show's. It became fashionable to pile on and while a couple of things may have felt rushed, it made sense in a Martin-esque way.



While I could right paragraphs and paragraphs about what’s wrong with that season, I can summarize it in this way:

the beats of the ending are not the problem, I agree that could be how the books end. My issue is the journey, the plot moves so quickly that it is no longer driven by characters (a hallmark of the early seasons) and the twists are so quick that they shatter disbelief.

case in point: the fact that Daenaeryes goes bad is not the issue, I could believe that. The fact that she does in the way shown, at that moment, that quickly…is beyond belief.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 26, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> case in point: the fact that Daenaeryes goes bad is not the issue, I could believe that. The fact that she does in the way shown, at that moment, that quickly…is beyond belief.




So, I didn't watch the show, but I have read the books to date.

In the books, Daenaeryes is pretty horrible.  It is clearly given to us early on that her family is prone to mental illness through a combination of breeding and abuse.  She projects an air of innocence and good intentions, and she is initially in the position of a victim.  But then you look at her actions after that point - she slaughters people by the thousands for not doing what she wants.  Her dedication to "freedom" is really only dedication to her.  

It is pretty clear that she is her brother's sister, a Targaryen though and through.  And they were not beneficent rulers. Her turning on anyone who allied with her is perfectly in character for her, and should come as no surprise.


----------



## payn (Oct 26, 2021)

Interesting, I just read that _the dinner scene_ was filmed but cut from the film. I'd love to see that in a director's cut!


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## Stalker0 (Oct 26, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, I didn't watch the show, but I have read the books to date.
> 
> In the books, Daenaeryes is pretty horrible.  It is clearly given to us early on that her family is prone to mental illness through a combination of breeding and abuse.  She projects an air of innocence and good intentions, and she is initially in the position of a victim.  But then you look at her actions after that point - she slaughters people by the thousands for not doing what she wants.  Her dedication to "freedom" is really only dedication to her.
> 
> It is pretty clear that she is her brother's sister, a Targaryen though and through.  And they were not beneficent rulers. Her turning on anyone who allied with her is perfectly in character for her, and should come as no surprise.



You are absolutely right. Now in the show they don't do as good a job at showing that, there are hints....but its a lot more muted, still there are hints of it. So again the idea that she ultimately "goes bad" is reasonable, and watching that journey would be an exciting one to see.

But that's not what happens. She literally just "goes nuts", and just destroys everything at the moment of her greatest victory.... which is completely unprecedented. In every other case on the show, at any point she does something that's "going dark", there is always a justifiable reason for it. A debatable reason mind you, but a reason none the less. But at the end....no, just goes off the deep end, in a way that makes 0% sense. She heels turns in a way that would make Pro Wrestlers blush.

If the writers had shown that journey slowly over time, I could have absolutely bought it. But again this is the issue with the rush job of Season 8. They didn't have the time to make that journey (and by that I mean the screenrunners decided to end it quickly, HBO was begging them to make it longer), so instead of doing something mid way that could have worked for the character they presented on the show, they just "force it to happen"....and the end result is shoddy and stupid.

So back to my original point, its not that the plot points of Season 8 are "bad", its how they manifested is what is so terrible.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Oct 26, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Going to see it tomorrow night. Haven’t read the books or seen the older film, but I’m excited to see the adventure of Dune (which I assume is the name of the main character).



Well, you certainly wouldn't give a major character a boring name like Paul!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 26, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> the thumper? was that supposed to mimic the rabbit? seriously its like a whale chasing an ant to food?




The worms react to, and attack, anything making a regular pattern of vibrations on the surface, like someone walking or running or marching, etc. I think they also go for the stronger vibration first, so using of them gives people some time to run for safe rocky ground, without having to do the random shuffle walk that does not attract the worms. This is all from the book, so if they left this information out of the movie, instead of having a 30-second explanation on-film for both characters and audience, then that is just another failure.


----------



## Jmarso (Oct 26, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> Ok i went in to this knowing hardly anything about the previous movie (i tried to watch the original a few years back and its bad)/didnt read books
> 
> things i liked
> Oscar Isaac was probably the best performer in the movie and the beard works! could totally see him being cast in a medieval movie
> ...



What Payn said in his post responding to yours- there is a whole political and world-building backdrop that Villeneuve only touched on or flat out ignored when making this version.

The primary reason for the lack of technology (aside from starships and such), is that millenia in the past, mankind fought a war against its own machines and AIs, and they have been banned ever since. (The Butlerian Jihad) This led to a rise of mental disciplines, which are centered primarily around the Bene Gesserit sisterhood, the Spacing Guild (composed solely of males), and things like the Mentats (The human computers). Thufir Howatt and Piter Devries (the latter never even gets mentioned by name, but he is Baron Harkonenn's Mentat) are Mentat Assassins.

The idea of the Kwisatz Haderach (which the Bene Gesserit are trying to breed by crossing centuries of human bloodlines) is basically a prescient 'superbeing' of sorts, a _male_ Bene Gesserit who can bridge the gap between the _yin_ of the Bene Gesserit disciplines and the _yang_ of those abilities open to beings like Guild Navigators (who are all male). Jessica and the Reverend Mother of the Bene Gesserit believe Paul is potentially the Kwisatz Haderach- and that is why Jessica has been training him in the Bene Gesserit disciplines, like the Voice, something which would never normally be done with a male child.

If you enjoyed the movie, you should really tackle the first book at the least. All of this is explained in detail and more. It's truly a magnificent work of sci-fi and social commentary. Also, if the second movie gets made, more will almost certainly be brought to light.


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## RangerWickett (Oct 26, 2021)

The writing quality also dropped grossly. No one was clever. No one schemed.

(I'm talking about Game of Thrones season 8.)


----------



## Jmarso (Oct 26, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> The writing quality also dropped grossly. No one was clever. No one schemed.



I see plans...within plans...


----------



## Janx (Oct 26, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The worms react to, and attack, anything making a regular pattern of vibrations on the surface, like someone walking or running or marching, etc. I think they also go for the stronger vibration first, so using of them gives people some time to run for safe rocky ground, without having to do the random shuffle walk that does not attract the worms. This is all from the book, so if they left this information out of the movie, instead of having a 30-second explanation on-film for both characters and audience, then that is just another failure.



they covered that in several ways in the new movie, I thought it was clear.

It's like Tremors, but with more sand.


----------



## theT0rmented (Oct 26, 2021)

Still haven't seen it, but at least part 2 is a go!


----------



## wicked cool (Oct 26, 2021)

looks like part 2 was just greenlit for release October 2023.


----------



## Argyle King (Oct 26, 2021)

RangerWickett said:


> The writing quality also dropped grossly. No one was clever. No one schemed.
> 
> (I'm talking about Game of Thrones season 8.)




I agree. 

Characters who had been intelligent, clever, and strategic masterminds for several seasons suddenly struggled with basic tactical problems.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 26, 2021)

In French Villeneuve confirmed the news : «Je viens de recevoir des nouvelles de Legendary. Nous allons officiellement de l’avant avec Dune : Part Two, a affirmé le réalisateur québécois dans un communiqué. C’était mon rêve d’adapter le roman Dune de Frank Herbert, et je dois remercier les fans, la distribution, l’équipe de production, Legendary et Warner Bros. pour leur soutien à ce rêve. Ce n’est que le début.»

Translation:
I just heard from Legendary. We're officially moving forward with Dune: Part Two, the Quebec director said in a statement. It was my dream to adapt Frank Herbert's Dune novel, and I have to thank the fans, the cast, the production crew, Legendary and Warner Bros. for their support of this dream. This is just the beginning.


----------



## Campbell (Oct 26, 2021)

Here's a link to the Variety article confirming Part 2 with an October 2023 release date








						‘Dune: Part 2’ Officially Greenlit, Release Date Set for 2023
					

“Dune” is officially getting a sequel. Legendary Entertainment announced the news in a tweet on Tuesday, ensuring that the spice will continue to flow on screen. Warner Bros. will distr…




					variety.com


----------



## payn (Oct 26, 2021)

The spice must flow...


----------



## Jmarso (Oct 26, 2021)

_He who controls the spice, controls the universe!_


----------



## Morrus (Oct 27, 2021)

Ouch. That film was not for me. It went on for about 4 days, mainly 45-minute glowing orange slow motion sandunes to loud synth music and trippy visions. And I thought No Time To Die felt long! I do hope Ghostbusters is snappy 90 minutes.

The first couple of hours were OK. The third hour in the desert with all the synth music and trippy visions was torture for me.

But if liked the slow parts of Bladerunner 2049 you’re in for a treat.


----------



## Stalker0 (Oct 27, 2021)

Morrus said:


> And I thought No Time To Die felt long!



NTTD: 2 hours 45 min
Dune: 2 hours 35 min

for those who care


----------



## payn (Oct 28, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Ouch. That film was not for me. It went on for about 4 days, mainly 45-minute glowing orange slow motion sandunes to loud synth music and trippy visions. And I thought No Time To Die felt long! I do hope Ghostbusters is snappy 90 minutes.
> 
> The first couple of hours were OK. The third hour in the desert with all the synth music and trippy visions was torture for me.
> 
> But if liked the slow parts of Bladerunner 2049 you’re in for a treat.



BR2049 was the best movie to come out in at least the last 10 years...


----------



## Herschel (Oct 28, 2021)

wicked cool said:


> Ok i went in to this knowing hardly anything about the previous movie (i tried to watch the original a few years back and its bad)/didnt read books
> 
> things i liked
> Oscar Isaac was probably the best performer in the movie and the beard works! could totally see him being cast in a medieval movie
> ...



Even though I had foreknowledge, a lot of these are my points, as well. So many important points were throw-away bits. 
1. "Well, because they're our ancient enemy." (Don't worry, we'll throw in an unexplained plot here in a bit)
2. "We're here now." (Nothing about folding space and the wormholes other than the throw-away narration. 
3. "Is that an armored mosquito?" (The hunter seeker scene was beautiful, but emotionally flat)
4. "Damn the spice!" (well, yeah, isn't saving the workers the most important and usual thing? They're even harder to replace on this desolate planet, right?)
5. "What's a thumper?" (Worms' got rhythm, yo)
6. "Doctor WTF?" (He's not a rando, just trust us!)  
7. "They have lasers and spaceships, why are they fighting with swords?" (Slow dancing with a crysknife FTW)
8. "So, the emperor's soldiers are joining the Harkonens why?"
9. "Cool music and all, but Atreides sure doesn't sound Scottish."
10. "So, she defied her galactically-powerful order to give Leto an heir and is a power herself, but she's worried and crying all the time?" 
11. "Why are we going" (Because the emperor told us to, and because we'll get a cool ceremony photo op for saying yes)
12. "Oh, so now you tell me the emperor told us to come here and get spice production back up, yet there's a bunch of sabotage going on and the equipment is old. Is the emperor not that powerful or should we be worried?"


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## Morrus (Oct 28, 2021)

payn said:


> BR2049 was the best movie to come out in at least the last 10 years...



You’ll like this then!


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## John R Davis (Oct 28, 2021)

You know nothing Morrus!

Given the Ginormously Ginomormousness of it all, the director could make a cracking Warhammer 40k movie!!


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## Morrus (Oct 28, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> NTTD: 2 hours 45 min
> Dune: 2 hours 35 min
> 
> for those who care



Yeah but the former felt like 2h45, while the latter felt like 6 weeks.


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## Marc_C (Oct 28, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Yeah but the former felt like 2h45, while the latter felt like 6 weeks.



For me NTTD felt very long, I got rapidly bored with the villain. Dune felt shorter. YMMV.


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## Jmarso (Oct 28, 2021)

For me, Dune was one of those movies like the LOTR movies. I knew they were going to be long, but I'm so in love with the milieu and the lore that it's easy for me to just sit back and just lose myself in them for a few hours.


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## Campbell (Oct 28, 2021)

I found No Time To Die and especially Shang Chi to be more entertaining than Dune. I find Dune to be a much better film though. It feels much more real and relevant to me. It's one of those films that keeps drawing me back to it. When I watched No Time to Die and Shang Chi I left the theater very satisfied, but I was pretty much done with them. I would watch either of them again, but I don't feel like I have to. I have watched Dune 3 times now and fully expect to feel compelled to watch it several more times.


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## Retreater (Oct 28, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> For me, Dune was one of those movies like the LOTR movies. I knew they were going to be long, but I'm so in love with the milieu and the lore that it's easy for me to just sit back and just lose myself in them for a few hours.



For me, LotR wasn't a great theater experience. Each film was too long to enjoy and take in during a single sitting. However, I preferred the Extended Editions, splitting each over several nights at home.


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## billd91 (Oct 28, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, I didn't watch the show, but I have read the books to date.
> 
> In the books, Daenaeryes is pretty horrible.  It is clearly given to us early on that her family is prone to mental illness through a combination of breeding and abuse.  She projects an air of innocence and good intentions, and she is initially in the position of a victim.  But then you look at her actions after that point - she slaughters people by the thousands for not doing what she wants.  Her dedication to "freedom" is really only dedication to her.
> 
> It is pretty clear that she is her brother's sister, a Targaryen though and through.  And they were not beneficent rulers. Her turning on anyone who allied with her is perfectly in character for her, and should come as no surprise.



In a word, no. 
In a longer set of words, Daenerys is young, abused, impressionable, and idealistic and all of that, plus her success with the dragon hatching and warfare, leads her into a Messianic complex. She honestly, earnestly, and compassionately tries to make things better in her campaigns against the slavers around Slaver's Bay but turns to the tried and true revolutionary method of eradicating the opposition when they prove they won't accept the new order or interfere with her "children" - the dragons. Every attempt she makes to improve things leads to tragedy that she personally feels responsible for. And that also leads her into believing she's the only one who can bear her burden - hence the Messianic complex.
She isn't mad at the start. There's no indication she's mad at the start. Events and tragedies lead her in that direction which seems to make her different from other Targaryen nutcases.


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## Marc_C (Oct 28, 2021)

This is a Dune thread. You should be discussing GOT in a GOT thread. I'm sure you can find one easily.


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## payn (Oct 28, 2021)

billd91 said:


> In a word, no.
> In a longer set of words, Daenerys is young, abused, impressionable, and idealistic and all of that, plus her success with the dragon hatching and warfare, leads her into a Messianic complex. She honestly, earnestly, and compassionately tries to make things better in her campaigns against the slavers around Slaver's Bay but turns to the tried and true revolutionary method of eradicating the opposition when they prove they won't accept the new order or interfere with her "children" - the dragons. Every attempt she makes to improve things leads to tragedy that she personally feels responsible for. And that also leads her into believing she's the only one who can bear her burden - hence the Messianic complex.
> She isn't mad at the start. There's no indication she's mad at the start. Events and tragedies lead her in that direction which seems to make her different from other Targaryen nutcases.



All mad kings, Queens, and leaders are sympathetic if you know their stories.


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## Umbran (Oct 28, 2021)

billd91 said:


> She isn't mad at the start.




I didn't use the word "mad".  I find that word to be less than helpful, as it usually refers to literary depictions of mental illness that aren't very similar to reality.

I said, "prone to mental illness".  This is a woman who has been sexually abused by her brother, effectively kept in (admittedly pleasant) captivity, and sold into marriage.  Her brother is brutally murdered before her eyes, iirc, and then she is taken on her wedding night in a way that hardly speaks "loving and informed consent".

If you want to think she's a well-balanced individual, who wields bloody violent power in a thoughtful, empathetic manner after all that, you are free to do so.


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## Jmarso (Oct 28, 2021)

Retreater said:


> For me, LotR wasn't a great theater experience. Each film was too long to enjoy and take in during a single sitting. However, I preferred the Extended Editions, splitting each over several nights at home.



I like the extended cuts far more than the theater cuts, but sitting in a theater through those versions didn't cause me any heartache at all. Saw 'em each multiple times and planning the same for Dune.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 28, 2021)

Remember when this was a Dune thread?


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## Umbran (Oct 28, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Remember when this was a Dune thread?




Topic drift happens.


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## Jmarso (Oct 28, 2021)

How 'bout them ornithopters? Sexy!


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## Zaukrie (Oct 28, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Topic drift happens.



So does people commenting on it. I'm not the first, and those posts seem to get likes.

I've been thinking a lot about my impressions of DUNE the last couple days, as more people I know see it and comment on it.

I'm 100% convinced had I not read the books, I'd like it more. It is a beautiful movie. The sound is amazing. The story they tell is good, and everyone I know understands what happened so far.

And yet, I hate how Jessica is portrayed, because I know she should be strong (and still "weak" in her love). And how Leto is just a prop. And a few other things......

So, I'll probably watch it again "soon" trying hard not to compare it to the books (which I'm usually good at, and actually WANT the movie to be different, because it isn't the same story or same genre......).


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## Jmarso (Oct 28, 2021)

Somewhere in the dimensional cinematic netherworld that exists between 2021 and 1984, there is a perfect version of this movie that borrows certain elements and cast members from both.


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## Marc_C (Oct 28, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> Somewhere in the dimensional cinematic netherworld that exists between 2021 and 1984, there is a perfect version of this movie that borrows certain elements and cast members from both.



I don't want to see Sting in kinky underwear at age 70. I was traumatized in 1984.


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## J.Quondam (Oct 28, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> Somewhere in the dimensional cinematic netherworld that exists between 2021 and 1984, there is a perfect version of this movie that borrows certain elements and cast members from both.



A few years after Villeneuve's sequel comes out, we'll get that director's cut. Maybe several director's cuts. And within a few years after that, just imagine all the fan-edits, deepfakes, and mashups that will be all over YouTube.
Perhaps from that utter creative chaos there will arise perfect version.


----------



## J.Quondam (Oct 28, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> I don't want to see Sting in kinky underwear at age 70. I was traumatized in 1984.



One word:
Deepfake!


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## ko6ux (Oct 28, 2021)

My hot takes:

2021 Dune needed more ridiculous hats.  There were not nearly enough outstandingly fabulous, audacious hats.
Also, they should have used the best thing that Lynch added to the canon: Duke Leto's pug.  He was the best boi.  I would have loved to see Josh Brolin carry a dog into battle.
At least we got Thurfir Hawat's parasol?  That was a nice new touch.

In all seriousness, though, the movie was good.  If it suffered anywhere it was that the two-and-a-half hour run time cannot possibly accommodate everything that fans of the book want to see while simultaneously being already so overstuffed that every plot point feels like it only gets a few minutes of screen time.


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## payn (Oct 28, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> And yet, I hate how Jessica is portrayed, because I know she should be strong (and still "weak" in her love). And how Leto is just a prop. And a few other things......



I read they wanted to rid Jessica's character of the patriarchy and matriarchy background to make her seem stronger as an individual in Dune 2021. Though, I think it had the opposite effect. When I read the novel I saw a lot of strength in Jessica because she stood up to the established feudal and theocracy systems. She shrugged off her concubine status for love, she ignored her gesserit mandate and bore a son. Despite these forces doing all they could to punish her, she overcame by being true to herself. One of the strongest female characters I have ever read.


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## Morrus (Oct 28, 2021)

Marc_C said:


> For me NTTD felt very long, I got rapidly bored with the villain. Dune felt shorter. YMMV.



MMCDV.


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## Stalker0 (Oct 29, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> And yet, I hate how Jessica is portrayed, because I know she should be strong (and still "weak" in her love).



Another great example of how we all have such different tastes. I think Jessica was one of the best characters in the movie, the actress nailed it. The scene where Paul is being tested and she is forced to wait outside, its VISCERAL, she really sold it to me.


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## Jmarso (Oct 29, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> Another great example of how we all have such different tastes. I think Jessica was one of the best characters in the movie, the actress nailed it. The scene where Paul is being tested and she is forced to wait outside, its VISCERAL, she really sold it to me.



It was very well acted, I agree, but I think out of character for Jessica as she was written. As a Bene Gesserit, she would have had iron clad control over her body and, to a large degree, her expression of emotion, no matter how afraid she was. I feel like Francesca Annis in the '84 version really nailed that. There was a regal-ness, a sense of nobility to the '84 Jessica that this portrayal lacked.


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## billd91 (Oct 29, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> It was very well acted, I agree, but I think out of character for Jessica as she was written. As a Bene Gesserit, she would have had iron clad control over her body and, to a large degree, her expression of emotion, no matter how afraid she was. I feel like Francesca Annis in the '84 version really nailed that. There was a regal-ness, a sense of nobility to the '84 Jessica that this portrayal lacked.



I think it's a quick and effective way to illustrate that Paul (and, by extension, Leto) isn't just her responsibility as an assigned concubine to a lord but her son - given, against the directive of her order, to the man she loves as an act of love - something the Bene Gesserit organization is too cynical to acknowledge. She *does* assert control, but it shows the effort involved. If she didn't feel so deeply, it *would *have been easy. From a story telling perspective, maybe it's better to show how hard it is for her.


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## Zaukrie (Oct 29, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> It was very well acted, I agree, but I think out of character for Jessica as she was written. As a Bene Gesserit, she would have had iron clad control over her body and, to a large degree, her expression of emotion, no matter how afraid she was. I feel like Francesca Annis in the '84 version really nailed that. There was a regal-ness, a sense of nobility to the '84 Jessica that this portrayal lacked.



An exception would have been fine. ... But overall, I felt she wasn't in control enough. Some, but not enough for me.


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## Umbran (Oct 29, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> It was very well acted, I agree, but I think out of character for Jessica as she was written. As a Bene Gesserit, she would have had iron clad control over her body and, to a large degree, her expression of emotion, no matter how afraid she was.




Yes, but in the book we get told about her state, and how she is exerting that control.  The movie doesn't give us internal monologue - so they have a choice of whether to show the internal, or leave her stony, but leaving the viewers with questions about her as a mother.


----------



## Umbran (Oct 29, 2021)

The following comes from Facebook user Vanessa Rose...


Spoiler: It is a bit long....



Picture this.
You're 17 years old, working at some grease counter in your hometown that everyone loves because there's literally no other options and mozzarella sticks are pretty hard to naughty word up.

One day your boss comes in, hes got a laundry list of naughty word he needs done around the place because next week the place is going to be on some TV show for food network.

You're pissed. Because you know it's Restaurant Rescues and you know 90% of the places that go on that show buckle within 6 months. Now you've not only got to do a bunch of annoying naughty word but also find another job.

Now it's Saturday, the camera crews are setting up. The whole place smells like Pine-Sol and is packed because a bunch of bumpkins are just fuckin chuffed at the opportunity to be on the television.

You're standing at the counter awkwardly taking orders in a way that's more annoying and professional than you've ever done before and your boss is hovering. As you stare into the void over the head of the foot faced man who owns the Ace Hardware combination Hollywood Video that constitutes the economic center of this municipality you can see a yellow Ford F250 with flames on it pull into the parking lot.

Out jumps a man who looks like a giant alien worm trying unsuccessfully to disguise himself as a vape shop owner. But you laugh because you get to keep your job and take some sick pics for facebook clout. You never thought you'd be so relieved for the opportunity to come back to this shithole.

And within minutes of filming you find him extremely charming. Every meme you'd ever shared about a man whose character is frosted tips and flame shirts now suddenly disservices the extremely pleasant being before you. As he goes through the motions of helping you make your "famous" chicken parm sub. Which retails for an indulgent $7.99 you're laughing. This isn't the missing link between Violent J and the singer for Smash Mouth. This guy is great. You feel intoxicated as you work.

"So tell me about the spices you put on this whopper of a sandwich"

"Oh nothing too exciting, just garlic/onions/parsley/oregano"

"I love spices. Let me see you do it"

Hes standing behind you now, with steady practiced hands helping you apply the flavors to the sandwich. Exageratedly fawning over you and the percieved flavors of the sandwich. You breathe him in and are overcome with how otherworldly he smells.

"Show me the spice closet. I wanna see what you've got for spices. Let's see if we can kick this baby into overdrive. Let's spice it up"

You look into his piercing blue eyes and grin.

Your fingers caress the tired stainless knob that was but five feet from where you stood just moments ago practically embracing.

Upon opening the door your eyes are met with an unfamiliar vision. Instead of weathered racks of grease clouded plastic bottles and a water heater. You look out into a derelict desert city. Small cracked brown buildings feature uncharacteristically futuristic doors, and guards disguised as traders shift uneasily trying to disguise state of the art guns.

"So this is where you keep the spices then. Is this on Arrakis?"

But your breath is too short to respond.

As you turn around. The restaurant begins to melt away. His eyes grow deeper blue and you hear a thunderous noise from behind you. The illusion dissolves like a drug trip, as the disguise begins to strip away. Your heart is pounding. You feel absolute terror.

This man. Who is clearly no man then forcefully pushes you through the door and the portal immediately closes as you lay on your back in the sand. The sound of the wind is cut by an apocalyptic roar.

The last sight your eyes behold. Is the miles long flame print trunk of the great blonde sand worm bursting forth from the desert in pursuit of the spices stored here. Flavortowns greatest weapon unfurls. Distant voices shout "It's Guy Halud" before the entire town is swallowed by the beast. The dust quickly consumes the rubble and by days end any evidence of the slaughter is all but forgotten by the sand.


----------



## Marc_C (Oct 29, 2021)

Director Denis Villeneuve Breaks Down the Gom Jabbar Scene:


----------



## Jmarso (Oct 29, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Yes, but in the book we get told about her state, and how she is exerting that control.  The movie doesn't give us internal monologue - so they have a choice of whether to show the internal, or leave her stony, but leaving the viewers with questions about her as a mother.



That was one of things the Lynch version gets excoriated for, but I thought was a clever touch- the occasional 'hearing' of the character's thoughts- especially when the actors acted along with it, like in the case of the Reverend Mother contemplating whether Paul would be 'ours to control' if he was, indeed, the Kwisatz Haderach. In particular, the scene with Paul in his bedchamber and the hunter-seeker was tense and exciting in the Lynch version, where in the new movie it was just a stunted scene where people who didn't know the story already were probably just confused until after it resolved.


----------



## payn (Oct 29, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> That was one of things the Lynch version gets excoriated for, but I thought was a clever touch- the occasional 'hearing' of the character's thoughts- especially when the actors acted along with it, like in the case of the Reverend Mother contemplating whether Paul would be 'ours to control' if he was, indeed, the Kwisatz Haderach. In particular, the scene with Paul in his bedchamber and the hunter-seeker was tense and exciting in the Lynch version, where in the new movie it was just a stunted scene where people who didn't know the story already were probably just confused until after it resolved.



This is something that was often done on the stage for plays. It's also in quite a bit of 60's-70's TV. I think soaps used it to death and a lot of folks associate internal monologues as cheesy. It does seem a little odd in the visual medium, where it makes a lot of sense in literature. I prefer the modern method of coming up with exposition that lays out the character's thoughts for the audience. An example (I made up) from Baron Harkonen, "...because my nephew we cant be seen as colluding with the Emperor against the Atreides, the other houses would revolt. This is why we spend so much time on subterfuge as opposed to an outright war we couldn't win alone."


----------



## Herschel (Oct 29, 2021)

Stalker0 said:


> NTTD: 2 hours 45 min
> Dune: 2 hours 35 min
> 
> for those who care




Dune could have used those extra ten minutes to flesh out a few things and be a better experience overall, I think.


----------



## Jmarso (Oct 29, 2021)

Did a second theater viewing today, and enjoyed it even more than the first. Second and third viewings are good for picking up little things you missed the first time around because your brain is doing that initial processing of the big things. Love this movie. Will probably see it a third time in the theater in a week or two.


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## Zardnaar (Oct 31, 2021)

Quite enjoyed it. Easier to understand than I thought it would be. I have a soft spot for the Lynch movie but this was better imho. 

 Was it perfect? No but it was 2.5 hours of fun.


----------



## GreyLord (Nov 1, 2021)

LOVED the movie.  I thought it absolutely awesome.

I think that both Dunes before this one (the 80s movie and the miniseries) were actually more accurate to the book (This movie has bald harkonnens and NO redheads?  Really???, only the Beast and no other besides the Baron??? Duncan does WHAT after the attack...he gets this glorious big battle scene all on his lonesome???).  

They took some liberties with the book.  I suppose the second part should be more accurate than the 80s movie's second half (wierding way and all) if they at least try, but the way they are going I would guess the miniseries will still be the most true to the books after it is released.

I still loved the movie, thought it was GREAT!


----------



## Rabulias (Nov 5, 2021)

Snarf Zagyg said:


> But we don't get real differentiation to show us them being totally awesome. I was waiting for it! Visually and plot-wise the invasion seemed like it succeeded because of surprise, chicanery (ahem... you know what I mean), and overwhelming force. There was never a moment visually when I remember seeing the Sarduakar do something impressive ... not even in comparison to the Harkonnen.
> 
> ....maybe that one scene where the Harkonnen troops were advancing, and the Sarduakar landed behind, but it didn't work for me. I just never saw/felt their relative strength. Heck, Aquaman was taking them out with no problem.



I have not read the books, but enjoyed this movie. IMO, the more important take-away from the Sardaukar involvement was not so much that they were elite badasses, but that they represent the Emperor taking an active role in House Atreides' fall. That they are elite warriors _can _be told and not necessarily shown in this case. If it was merely told that they participated in the attack, and we never saw them engaged (as overwhelming warriors or not), it would be a weaker film.


----------



## Joshua Randall (Nov 7, 2021)

Dull and empty. Apparently the planet Arrakis is inhabited by about 20 people, and no animals other than one mouse. This felt like a TV show trying to hide their low budget rather than a mega budget movie.


----------



## Hatmatter (Nov 7, 2021)

Joshua Randall said:


> Dull and empty. Apparently the planet Arrakis is inhabited by about 20 people, and no animals other than one mouse. This felt like a TV show trying to hide their low budget rather than a mega budget movie.



There might have been a sandworm or two in there.


----------



## dragoner (Nov 7, 2021)

Wait until Heretics, and women control men's minds through sex!


----------



## Mallus (Nov 7, 2021)

dragoner said:


> Wait until Heretics, and women control men's minds through sex!



I really hope Villenueve’s Dune spawns a franchise… that stops after God-Emperor.


----------



## dragoner (Nov 7, 2021)

Mallus said:


> I really hope Villenueve’s Dune spawns a franchise… that stops after God-Emperor.



By Chapterhouse, the whole Bene Gesserit vs Honored Matres thing was cringe-groan. Though Delaney claims the entirety of Dune was merely based on a pun that got out of hand might be true too.


----------



## Tun Kai Poh (Nov 7, 2021)

dragoner said:


> By Chapterhouse, the whole Bene Gesserit vs Honored Matres thing was cringe-groan. Though Delaney claims the entirety of Dune was merely based on a pun that got out of hand might be true too.



Mary Shelley also wrote _Frankenstein_ and kicked off modern science fiction because of a holiday writing challenge that got out of hand, so that tracks.


----------



## dragoner (Nov 8, 2021)

Tun Kai Poh said:


> Mary Shelley also wrote _Frankenstein_ and kicked off modern science fiction because of a holiday writing challenge that got out of hand, so that tracks.



I have also heard it is a thinly veiled criticism on the colonial policy in Ireland, though I do not know the situation enough to tell. Philip K Dick called science fiction a "divine fool" a way to say something, without saying it directly.


----------



## Mallus (Nov 8, 2021)

dragoner said:


> Though Delaney claims the entirety of Dune was merely based on a pun that got out of hand might be true too.



Samuel R. Delany? I hadn’t heard that - what’s the story?


----------



## dragoner (Nov 8, 2021)

Mallus said:


> Samuel R. Delany? I hadn’t heard that - what’s the story?



Yes, I think it was in his collected Hugo winners, where he was in Greece and writing in a journal that he read Dune, and he explained the play on words for Bene Gesserit, though I can't remember the exact details now.


----------



## Zardnaar (Nov 8, 2021)

dragoner said:


> Wait until Heretics, and women control men's minds through sex!




 And the Tleuilexu cloning tanks.


----------



## Mallus (Nov 8, 2021)

Zardnaar said:


> And the Tleuilexu cloning tanks.



Please dear god stop after God-Emperor.


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## Imaculata (Nov 8, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> That was one of things the Lynch version gets excoriated for, but I thought was a clever touch- the occasional 'hearing' of the character's thoughts- especially when the actors acted along with it,




I hated that in Lynch's Dune. I think it is something that works well in a book, but doesn't translate well to film. It always felt very jarring to me.


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## Jmarso (Nov 8, 2021)

Imaculata said:


> I hated that in Lynch's Dune. I think it is something that works well in a book, but doesn't translate well to film. It always felt very jarring to me.



I just never had an issue with it- you could always tell when they were 'just' thinking, and in trying to squash the entire story down into a single movie, I don't really see what else he could have done. It is one of the most commonly heard complaints about that version, though- a LOT of people don't like it.


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## dragoner (Nov 8, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> I just never had an issue with it- you could always tell when they were 'just' thinking, and in trying to squash the entire story down into a single movie, I don't really see what else he could have done. It is one of the most commonly heard complaints about that version, though- a LOT of people don't like it.



The first half was great, which made the second half seem even more terrible than it was. At the same time, there was the release of the Giger Dune artwork, the "illustrated encyclopedia" of Dune which the movie was riding that same wave, that crashed with the last books: Heretics, and Chapterhouse, though tbh even God-Emperor was more of a stand alone novel, and that the original trilogy was best. But yeah, going back to the late 70's, early 80's Dune was a franchise, there was even and avalon hill board game: Dune


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## Zaukrie (Nov 8, 2021)

Listening to some of the music while working on my novel this am.....it is quite good (the music, who knows about this first draft novel).


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## Tun Kai Poh (Nov 8, 2021)

dragoner said:


> The first half was great, which made the second half seem even more terrible than it was. At the same time, there was the release of the Giger Dune artwork, the "illustrated encyclopedia" of Dune which the movie was riding that same wave, that crashed with the last books: Heretics, and Chapterhouse, though tbh even God-Emperor was more of a stand alone novel, and that the original trilogy was best. But yeah, going back to the late 70's, early 80's Dune was a franchise, there was even and avalon hill board game: Dune



The Dune board game has been re-released by Gale Force Nine - it's quite a solid reproduction.


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## payn (Nov 8, 2021)

Tun Kai Poh said:


> The Dune board game has been re-released by Gale Force Nine - it's quite a solid reproduction.



Orly? I need to check that out.


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## Joshua Randall (Nov 10, 2021)

It's an interesting boardgame with asymmetrical design. I'm not sure how well it works by modern standards, but as a historical curiosity, it's worth playing.


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## Tun Kai Poh (Nov 10, 2021)

Joshua Randall said:


> It's an interesting boardgame with asymmetrical design. I'm not sure how well it works by modern standards, but as a historical curiosity, it's worth playing.



True, it drags out quite a bit and there are a lot of quirks in the rules.

GF9 is also making a newer revision of the game, for up to 4 players with shorter gameplay, in conjunction with the movie release. Link here: Dune: A Game of Conquest and Diplomacy


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## Joshua Randall (Nov 11, 2021)

Tun Kai Poh said:


> there are a lot of quirks in the rules.



You can kinda sorta draw a line from the exception based design of boardgames like Dune and, especially, Cosmic Encounter (acknowledged as an influence) to Magic: the Gathering. But like everything else, exception based design is a lot better now than it was when O.G. Dune boardgame was created.


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## Blue (Nov 12, 2021)

embee said:


> The sad truth is that Dune, like Foundation and The Silmarillion, is a landmark work of science fiction that is so dependent on lore and internal dialogue that it is unfilmable.



It's not unfilmable - proof: they have filmed it several times.  Your hyperbole is no good here.

What Dune is, is a work that took great advantage of the strengths of one medium.  The idea that it can't be translated into a medium that does not share those strengths - ignoring the strengths of the other medium simply because they are not the same - is elitist purism. It is like saying that a movie with a good score is "unwritable" and can never be turned into a book.

And yes, the score is one of the great things about this.  Another was the amazing sense of humongous scale - so visceral when seen.  I'm looking to go see it for my second viewing in IMAX to maximize those.

I'm not saying this was the perfect Dune.  What I am saying is that proclaiming it dead because the format changes is shortsighted and false - each format has it's own strengths that it brings.


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## Blue (Nov 12, 2021)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Well, you certainly wouldn't give a major character a boring name like Paul!



I think "Paul" is looking up, @Paul Farquhar .


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## Blue (Nov 12, 2021)

Jmarso said:


> The idea of the Kwisatz Haderach (which the Bene Gesserit are trying to breed by crossing centuries of human bloodlines) is basically a prescient 'superbeing' of sorts, a _male_ Bene Gesserit who can bridge the gap between the _yin_ of the Bene Gesserit disciplines and the _yang_ of those abilities open to beings like Guild Navigators (who are all male). Jessica and the Reverend Mother of the Bene Gesserit believe Paul is potentially the Kwisatz Haderach- and that is why Jessica has been training him in the Bene Gesserit disciplines, like the Voice, something which would never normally be done with a male child.



It's been a while, my memory doesn't agree with this.  Could you provide a source?

I thought the Bene Gesserit, with two X chromosomes, could only access the female part of Genetic Memory, while a male one would be able to access both the X and Y sides.

Also, the first guild navigator was female and I don't remember anything about navigators being locked ot a specific gender.


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