# New PH3 Class....The Psion!



## Stalker0 (Jul 7, 2009)

So the DDI has just given us the early release of the Psion class.

Important Notes:
1) Its a controller
2) One of the builds is a telepath, that uses charisma as its secondary. The other build will be wisdom (that build hasn't been released yet).
3) Psions don't get encounter powers, they instead get more at-will powers, and those can be augmented with power points to increase their power and flexibility. Power Points recharge after each short or extended rest.


I've glanced through the power selection, here's my brief take:
1) Weaker dailies than the wizard, definitely designed to make more use of their at wills.
2) Lots of attack other, dominate type powers.
3) Has a few leader like powers, can give skill bonuses, extra saves, and grants allies extra damage to attack their afflicted target.



Overall, my first reaction is that I wish the augmentation idea had been added to powers in the first place. Its simple and clean to use, and I definately think it adds some good flexibility without going too far.

Opposed to that, I feel the psion gets too few at wills, he has to trade out his at wills at lot as he gets higher level and the new at wills don't seem that much better than the old ones (though they do have more powerful augments).


But definitely a neat new direction for 4e, let me tip my hat to the WOTC designers who thought of the augmentation idea.


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## Phaezen (Jul 7, 2009)

The acompaning article for the COmpendium and Character Builder release can be found here

Nicely includes commentary from Andy Collins, Bruce R. Cordell, Mike Mearls,
and Stephen Schubert giving insight into design decisions that were made.

Oh yes and count me blown away with this class design

Edit:
Second Build from PHB3 will focus on force powers and there will be a total of 4 Psion Paragon Paths in the book


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## Trolls (Jul 7, 2009)

It seems like the second build is specialised in telekinesis, and I expect one of the discipline focus powers will be similar to mage hand.


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## Rechan (Jul 7, 2009)

Class features?

How many PPs does a psion get? Does it increase as level? Is it very point-based magic/class, or is it more a half-and-half point buy and 4e aw/encounter/daily + point pool class?


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## Stalker0 (Jul 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> How many PPs does a psion get? Does it increase as level? Is it very point-based magic/class, or is it more a half-and-half point buy and 4e aw/encounter/daily + point pool class?





2 PP at 1st, 2 more at 3rd, and it scales up from there (although not linearly).

For the most part, the PP structure is an augment to the normal power system. You have at-will and daily powers...and they work just like those normally do. However, you can spend power points on the at-wills to jump them up to encounter power status, and something even a little beyond. Just like the psion of 3.5, you can do little augmenting and have more powers for the encounter, or go nova and spend quickly for more raw power. The difference is degree, you can't spread the powers out or nova as much as you could in 3.5.

Most powers have two augment levels, spend X points and you get the upgraded effect, spend Y points and you get an even better effect.


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## Trolls (Jul 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Class features?




Discipline Focus - Grants a couple of telepathy themed encounter powers. The other build (which we haven't seen) grants a different set.
Psionic Augmentation - No encounter powers, just augmentable at-wills.
Ritual Casting



> How many PPs does a psion get? Does it increase as level? Is it very point-based magic/class, or is it more a half-and-half point buy and 4e aw/encounter/daily + point pool class?



They start with 2, and that increases as you level up. 
Daily and utility powers work exactly the same as with other classes.
Rather than the usual at-will and encounter powers, you only get at-will powers at every level you would usually get new encounter powers. You get a maximum of 3 at-will powers, so have to retrain them after the one you get at 3rd level. Each at-will power has a couple of augments, which cost somewhere between 1 and 4 power points to use.


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## Nymrohd (Jul 7, 2009)

The Psion has no encounter powers. He starts with two at-will powers and gains a third at level 3, and can replace an at-will for another one of higher level at each level a player would normally get or replace an encounter power. Psion at-will can be augmented with power points of which the psion has a small pool that resets every short rest. He is presented with two paragon paths, both of which have an encounter power that can be augmented and both of which increase the power point pool.

He is a controller with Int primary, Cha secondary for the previewed telepath built, Wis secondary for the telekinesis built.


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## Rechan (Jul 7, 2009)

So a psion at 1st level wcan get into 3 encounters, and he only has enough PP for 2 augments (2 encounter  power uses, equivalent). Where a 1st level character would get to use their encounter power 3 times.

Odd.

I imagine humans will be the defacto psion due to the number of AWs they get?



> Discipline Focus - Grants a couple of telepathy themed encounter powers.



So they have at least some encounter powers. 

Wis secondary for a tk build? Odd. Here I could have seen CON secondary for TK.

I imagine psions will also like multi-classing, for getting access to encounter powers without needing to spend PPs; unless that loophole is closed somehow.

So, how do they hold up as a controller? And, what are they good at?


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## Phaezen (Jul 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> So a psion at 1st level wcan get into 3 encounters, and he only has enough PP for 2 augments (2 encounter  power uses, equivalent). Where a 1st level character would get to use their encounter power 3 times.
> 
> Odd.




Power Points refresh with a short or extended rest, so they are encounter powers. so he can minor augment 2 at wills or major augment 1 in an encounter at 1st level


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## Nymrohd (Jul 7, 2009)

Your power points reset every short rest, so you can augment 2 one power per encounter or augment 1 two powers. Also at-wills gained in any other way than through the class cannot be augmented with the psion class feature (though maybe there will be another way to augment them).

As for the powers, the few I've seen feature heavy penalties to defenses and attack especially if they are augmented. Telepath seems like a primary single target control that denies or degrades actions with the option to augment for more targets.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 7, 2009)

Woo! I'm really excited about the augmentable at-wills! I honestly hadn't expected they'd implement a system that deviated that much from the standard power array. I can't wait for the whole thing - why isn't it March 2010, already?!


Phaezen said:


> Second Build from PHB3 will focus on force powers and there will be a total of 4 Psion Paragon Paths in the book



Nice to see confirmation of psionics being in PHB3. Together with the info that Draconians will be in Draconomicon 2 that should get rid of the rumours that the next setting will be anything but Darksun


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## Rechan (Jul 7, 2009)

Sweet, there are feats in the pdf apparently.

So, what names of powers do we get? Do they keep the pseudoscience, or the mysticism, or what?


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## Jack99 (Jul 7, 2009)

I think human psions are going to be the rage - I mean, who wouldn't want an extra at-will with the even more added flexibility it gives you?

I like the class. I think it's great, in fact, I will be playing one at the first opportunity I get. Very different from my Mentalist, and yet, very close to some of the things we had on the drawing table.


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## Phaezen (Jul 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Sweet, there are feats in the pdf apparently.
> 
> So, what names of powers do we get? Do they keep the pseudoscience, or the mysticism, or what?




From the commentary:



			
				Andy said:
			
		

> Andy: You might notice that we avoided including many overtly anachronistic power names. Unlike previous versions of psionic powers, we want these powers to sound fantastic, not scientific.


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## Nymrohd (Jul 7, 2009)

We do get psychic chirurgery, microcosm, precognitive step, psychofeedback


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## Rechan (Jul 7, 2009)

I agree with Cadfan's comment in the other thread about "You attack target, target attacks its ally".

Namely it's weak because you have a low chance of both hitting. If you have a 60% chance of hitting target, and monster has 60% chance of hitting its ally, this means you have a 36^ chance of succeeding with the effect.

So, I think I will institute a rule that grants a bonus to the monster's attack equal to the caster's secondary score.


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## Kirnon_Bhale (Jul 7, 2009)

@Rechan: Hi, the Power Points recharge at each short rest - so after every encounter. The Psion is definitely not short changed and this also discourages Point hording for later encounters.


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## Rechan (Jul 7, 2009)

Thanks guysi, for answering my questions. Really appreciate it. 

Damn, it seems like the bard and the psion are THE debuffer classes. ... In fact, a bard/psion would work so very well.

Aaand we see two more "Race/class combos" that don't make sense fluff wise but work: gnome/tiefling psions. But that's my own pet peeve.


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## RyvenCedrylle (Jul 7, 2009)

Is there no multiclass feat or am I just missing something?


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## Shroomy (Jul 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I agree with Cadfan's comment in the other thread about "You attack target, target attacks its ally".
> 
> Namely it's weak because you have a low chance of both hitting. If you have a 60% chance of hitting target, and monster has 60% chance of hitting its ally, this means you have a 36^ chance of succeeding with the effect.
> 
> So, I think I will institute a rule that grants a bonus to the monster's attack equal to the caster's secondary score.




You won't have to.  Most of those powers have built in bonuses to the hit and damage, either via augmentation or by dint of being a daily power.


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## Shroomy (Jul 7, 2009)

Nymrohd said:


> We do get psychic chirurgery, microcosm, precognitive step, psychofeedback




Id insinutation also makes a comeback.


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 7, 2009)

At the same time, some of the names are familiar from prior editions, such as Id Insinuation.  (EDIT:  Shroomy beat me to it!)

Overall, I like it.  I wish there was more crystal focus, but orbs are the compromise there.  They maintained power points, so I'm happy.  And the augmentable powers are still there, so that pays tributed to augmented powers in 3.5 and power scores in 2e.

Seems like a fairly nice compromise between editions.


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## Rechan (Jul 7, 2009)

It's the insinuation and feedback that get to me. They're so modern, or rather big mouthfulls. 

Hm, I wonder how the psion multi-class feat will work.

Damnit. I don't just want the PHB3 as badly as I want info ON PHB3!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 7, 2009)

> I wonder how the psion multi-class feat will work.



Or multiclassing a psionic character. What exactly do you need to do to retrain an encounter power? Just give up the power points? Also sacrifice the At-Will retrain option?


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## Twiggly the Gnome (Jul 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Aaand we see two more "Race/class combos" that don't make sense fluff wise but work: gnome/tiefling psions. But that's my own pet peeve.




Works great for Eberron! House Sivis has a guild called _Tasker's Dream_, with a keen interest in telepathy.


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## Fallen Seraph (Jul 7, 2009)

I just got home from doing some stuff for school (getting transcripts). Can someone give a quick expression of how it feels. I am just about to start looking through, but you guys have been looking at it longer. So would fans of 3.5 fluff of Psionics like it?


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## Trolls (Jul 7, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Aaand we see two more "Race/class combos" that don't make sense fluff wise but work: gnome/tiefling psions. But that's my own pet peeve.




On the contrary, I think they work pretty well.
Gnomes are fey tricksters after all. Messing with people's minds fits perfectly IMO.
Tieflings were once rulers of an diabolical empire, so mental domination seems right up their alley too.


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## jasonbostwick (Jul 7, 2009)

Jack99 said:


> I think human psions are going to be the rage - I mean, who wouldn't want an extra at-will with the even more added flexibility it gives you?/quote]
> 
> According to the article where it describes the _Augmentable_ power keyword, you can't use the augmentations of at-will attack powers you gain from racial features.
> So humans just get an extra at-will that they can only use unaugmented.


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## Vael (Jul 7, 2009)

Also means Half-Elves cannot augment Dilettante Powers from other Psionic classes when they come out.

... I'm not crazy 'bout the unaugmentability of the Human's extra at-will, seems a big nerf ... but I can see why it was done. Probably going to be a feat in Psionic Power to override that restriction.


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## Peraion Graufalke (Jul 7, 2009)

Intellect Fortress has made a comeback (defensive mode in AD&D).
I really like the psion's powers, the fully augmented Memory Hole is great, that's one power I wouldn't retrain.


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## Shroomy (Jul 7, 2009)

Vael said:


> Also means Half-Elves cannot augment Dilettante Powers from other Psionic classes when they come out.
> 
> ... I'm not crazy 'bout the unaugmentability of the Human's extra at-will, seems a big nerf ... but I can see why it was done. Probably going to be a feat in Psionic Power to override that restriction.




The way I'm reading the Augmentable keyword, a human psion would be able to augment their extra at-will because they have power points.  A half-elf who gained a power via the Dilettante racial feature would not unless they multi-classed into the psion class (assuming you get power points from multi-classing).  This is the key text for me:



			
				PHB3 said:
			
		

> However, the power does not lose
> the augmentable keyword. This means the power is
> unaugmented when you use it, unless you augment
> it by some other means.


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## Jack99 (Jul 7, 2009)

jasonbostwick said:


> Jack99 said:
> 
> 
> > I think human psions are going to be the rage - I mean, who wouldn't want an extra at-will with the even more added flexibility it gives you?/quote]
> ...


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## Fallen Seraph (Jul 7, 2009)

Hmm... So far I like it, it feels Psionic, and also neat unique mechanics that aren't too far off that hard to remember, etc. It has enough pseudoscience feel in some Power names and just generally how the Powers act to make me happy. I wonder if the other Psionic classes (besides the Monk) will use similar mechanics.


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## hvg3akaek (Jul 8, 2009)

Anyone else annoyed with the new setup?  I mean, not having the powers actually described in the pdf, and only having links to the compendium?

With them written in the pdf, i could skim through it, and easily compare different power options.  Now, I have the choice of ckicking many, many links (which as often as not, open with the "enter your password again" screen, then go on to an error), and it is much harder to get an overall feel, or a good comparison of powers.

Ultimately, I cannot really be bothered reading through the pdf.  Guess I'll wait for the CB to be updated


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## Fallen Seraph (Jul 8, 2009)

hvg3akaek said:


> Ultimately, I cannot really be bothered reading through the pdf.  Guess I'll wait for the CB to be updated



Umm... It is updated, I am looking at Psion abilities right now in the CB.


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## I'm A Banana (Jul 8, 2009)

Those links are a crazy big hassle. Screw that noise to the barnyard, and then kick it into a ditch. That's obnoxious as all frickin' get-out.

Aside from that, color me pretty stoked to see the powers' system iron-clad grip getting a little looser. It's not exactly ideal, but I like that they're willing to go there. Spending PP like this is good, and encourages the old strategy.

I liked the pseudoscience, but I'm a sucker for it, so I'll forgive their heresy on this one.  

*BUT HOLY HOPPING VAMPIRES, THOSE COMPENDIUM LINKS BLOW AMAZINGLY HARD*.
[sblock]
Conspiracy Theory: It's an anti-piracy measure so that people can't just download the PDF and have the material. Of course, like most anti-piracy measures, it just ends up being a righteous hassle for legitimate customers -- I can't print this out, I can't send this to a player or a DM who might want to use it, I can't copy this to my thumb drive and browse it at work...this is supremely onerous to me.
[/sblock]


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## AngryMojo (Jul 8, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> *BUT HOLY HOPPING VAMPIRES, THOSE COMPENDIUM LINKS BLOW AMAZINGLY HARD*.
> [sblock]
> Conspiracy Theory: It's an anti-piracy measure so that people can't just download the PDF and have the material. Of course, like most anti-piracy measures, it just ends up being a righteous hassle for legitimate customers -- I can't print this out, I can't send this to a player or a DM who might want to use it, I can't copy this to my thumb drive and browse it at work...this is supremely onerous to me.
> [/sblock]




It could be worse.  At least they're not relying on decoder rings.  Last time that happened, I wound up drinking way too much ovaltine.


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## 77IM (Jul 8, 2009)

Midget, I agree with you 100% about the links being annoying, and I also subscribe to your conspiracy theory.  Although they may just be trying to keep things more up-to-date by linking to the live compendium.  Either way there is some serious stupid going on here -- if Assassin's like that, I'm going to lodge a complaint.


And I guess I'm the only one who felt that the power use and acquisition system was already plenty complex enough and that adding power points into the mix is a horrible idea?  I have terrifying visions of someone showing up at my table with the wrong number of power points and at-will disciplines, and getting completely confused about how to apply them.  I mean, if the at-will/encounter/daily system is so great that the martial characters and the spellcasters all get shackled to the same system, what's so special about psions that they need this whole new thing?  I guess it would make more sense to me if they had kept unique class power progressions, but now it seems like a strange tacked-on experiment, something more appropriate for _Dragon_ than PHB3.  I was disappointed by the "complexity-creep" in PHB2 and I guess this shows that it will be ongoing.

 -- 77IM


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## malraux (Jul 8, 2009)

I've gotta agree with KM on those links.  What's the point?  I can see not listing the powers, I guess.  But then why have those text descriptions?  Just list the text of a few and then link to the compendium and talk about the design choices or something.  Yeah, electronic paper is cheap, but why do that?

On the plus side, I kinda do like the lower ink top border.


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## Peraion Graufalke (Jul 8, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> *BUT HOLY HOPPING VAMPIRES, THOSE COMPENDIUM LINKS BLOW AMAZINGLY HARD*.
> [sblock]
> Conspiracy Theory: It's an anti-piracy measure so that people can't just download the PDF and have the material. Of course, like most anti-piracy measures, it just ends up being a righteous hassle for legitimate customers -- I can't print this out, I can't send this to a player or a DM who might want to use it, I can't copy this to my thumb drive and browse it at work...this is supremely onerous to me.
> [/sblock]




Actually, you can save that stuff to your hard drive; I used Opera to save the powers as mht files, same way you can print them too. The Compendium does allow you print that stuff, e.g. with CutePDF you can save them as pdf files. Another option is to "save frame as", which allowed me to save the class description to my hd as an aspx file.
(Any internet browser should be able to open aspx and mht files, btw.)

For the record, I agree with you that it's a hassle for legitimate customers.


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## xstevebob42 (Jul 8, 2009)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Conspiracy Theory: It's an anti-piracy measure so that people can't just download the PDF and have the material. Of course, like most anti-piracy measures, it just ends up being a righteous hassle for legitimate customers -- I can't print this out, I can't send this to a player or a DM who might want to use it, I can't copy this to my thumb drive and browse it at work...this is supremely onerous to me.
> [/sblock]




I agree with your theory and it's conclusion. It certainly creates large hassle for legitimate consumers.


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## Flobby (Jul 8, 2009)

*Implements?*

Could anyone tell me what their implements are? I think someone mentioned orbs... any new ones?

Thanks


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## ryryguy (Jul 8, 2009)

The other implement is staff.

No new implements.  There's a sidebar comment that they considered a new one (circlet), but decided it wasn't worth it.  Basically adding a new implement means they also need to add enough new items to support it, and there was no mechanical reason to add it.


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## Flobby (Jul 8, 2009)

*Magic?*

Oh one more question! Is psionics magic? Did they add a psionics skill? (okay that's two questions...)


Thanks


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## Kez Darksun (Jul 8, 2009)

Add me to the list of customers annoyed by the format change.  I love having the commentary but I would much rather see that in a second article and have the class in the standard format so I do not have to waste even more time copy/pasting the class into word so I can print out a copy to read away from my computer at my leisure without wasting ink on art.


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## Trolls (Jul 8, 2009)

Flobby said:


> Oh one more question! Is psionics magic? Did they add a psionics skill? (okay that's two questions...)
> 
> 
> Thanks




Psionics is magic. Complete transparency.

So no Psionics skill, it's covered by Arcana.


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## gribble (Jul 8, 2009)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Or multiclassing a psionic character. What exactly do you need to do to retrain an encounter power? Just give up the power points? Also sacrifice the At-Will retrain option?



Probably something like giving up an encounter power from your primary class for a Psion at-will + 2 power points (or maybe the max augment value in power points for the at-will). Alternatively you can give up an at-will from another psionic class + 2 power points (or max augment value in PP again) instead of an encounter power from a non-psionic class.

Paragon MC will probably just be a straight at-will for at-will swap, along with a feat which provides additional power points for paragon MCers.

Makes sense to me anyway... although the new mechanics certainly do make some parts of the system a bit messy!


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## Piratecat (Jul 8, 2009)

Psionics is _really_ magic; according to the character builder, being a psion qualifies you for wizard paragon paths. A little odd.


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## Flobby (Jul 8, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Psionics is _really_ magic; according to the character builder, being a psion qualifies you for wizard paragon paths. A little odd.




That is odd. Wasn't psionics originally magic in 3E only to be changed to something different cause no one liked the idea of magic/psionics transparency?
Or did I imagine that?


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## Leatherhead (Jul 8, 2009)

I am going to be the voice of discontent. 

I do not like power points. I honestly hoped that in 4E the psionic classes were finally going to be uniform with everyone else. Their usage of unique mechanics has been a big part of the reason they have been historically shunned at large. And I was never fond of power/mana points in the first place. 

I also don't like classes that break the mold. D&D finally has a much-needed standardized system for class powers and features. It helps quite a bit when helping people to learn the game, if everyone uses basically the same rules. 
Having multiple different subsystems was one of the things that caused older editions to seem monstrous and unapproachable to outsiders, with hauling around a library in order to reference them. It was also time consuming as a DM trying to keep on top of all the different mechanics new classes had (I wouldn't let a person use something unless I understood how it worked).

At a glance, it seems the psion has less powers, but more options than the other classes, with the additional bonus of using the same "encounter" option repeatedly. That sends up warning flags for me. I feel there is no real need for such a radical departure from he other classes. There is still lots of room to create new classes with different flavors, without having to change up the current format.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 8, 2009)

Flobby said:


> That is odd. Wasn't psionics originally magic in 3E only to be changed to something different cause no one liked the idea of magic/psionics transparency?
> Or did I imagine that?




In 3.5 the game offered 3 ways to handle psionics.

The default however was magic/psionic transparancy. Dispel magic dispelled psionics, knowledge psionics worked like knowledge arcane....etc.


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## gribble (Jul 8, 2009)

Leatherhead said:


> I am going to be the voice of discontent.




I actually kind of agree. Just built a test Psion, and I didn't swap out my 1st-3rd level at-will powers until I hit Epic (23rd) level. Most of the higher heroic and paragon at-will just don't seem that much better than the basic at-wills, and the 4-point augments certainly don't seem better than using the 2 point augments on the lower level powers twice per encounter.

Of course, I was just doing it very quickly, and will admit to not going through the powers with a fine-toothed comb but it certainly raised balance alarm bells for me...

Mods, feel free to cut the below if it's too spoilerific...

Here's probably the worst example I picked up on:
Mind Thrust (lvl 1 at-will) vs. Psychic Brand (lvl 17 at-will).

Unaugmented, Psychic Brand has longer range (20 vs 10) and a rider effect (target can't benefit from concealment or total concealment until the end of your next turn). I'll admit that situationally it's very good, but a lot of the time the effect will be the same.
With the 1 PP augments, both do the same, except with Psychic Brand the target grants combat advantage, Mind Thrust the target takes a penalty to Will equal to your Cha mod (both until the end of your next turn). I'd argue there are situations where either could be better, so probably balanced.
The kicker is the high cost augments (4 PP for Psychic Brand, 2 PP for Mind Thrust). Both do the same damage, except with Psychic Brand the target cannot benefit from concealment or total concealment and gains vulnerability to all damage equal to your Cha mod until the end of your next turn. Mind Thrust gives the target a penalty to all defenses equal to your Cha mod. 

Bearing in mind you'll be able to use the augmented Mind Thrust twice as often as Psychic Brand, I know which power I'd rather have. I can see there are some circumstances under which Psychic Brand is better than Mind Thrust, but *most *of the time I think the latter will be more useful.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 8, 2009)

Leatherhead said:


> I also don't like classes that break the mold. D&D finally has a much-needed standardized system for class powers and features. It helps quite a bit when helping people to learn the game, if everyone uses basically the same rules.




Wow, can I _not_ get behind this. I agree that the _bulk_ of classes should follow the standardized system 100%, and most of them _do_. But to say that there should _never_ be classes that diverge a bit? That's remarkably limiting. It limits the designers who may have cool ideas, and it limits players who may want to color outside the lines a bit.

I wouldn't want a 4E class that _completely_ ignores the system, but one that steps outside of it to the extent that the psion does? Yes, please, even if I never wind up playing one.


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## Moon_Goddess (Jul 8, 2009)

Piratecat said:


> Psionics is _really_ magic; according to the character builder, being a psion qualifies you for wizard paragon paths. A little odd.



I don't think so, I thought for a short period of time that it qualified me for Warlock PP, but then I noticed i accidently had pact initiate, when I got rid of it all i had was psion ones and race ones.


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## Piratecat (Jul 8, 2009)

DarwinofMind said:


> I don't think so, I thought for a short period of time that it qualified me for Warlock PP, but then I noticed i accidently had pact initiate, when I got rid of it all i had was psion ones and race ones.



Hmm. It was an auto-built character and I didn't check the feats. That might have been why.


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 8, 2009)

Fallen Seraph said:


> I just got home from doing some stuff for school (getting transcripts). Can someone give a quick expression of how it feels. I am just about to start looking through, but you guys have been looking at it longer. So would fans of 3.5 fluff of Psionics like it?




I've only barely skimmed it over once, but my initial thought is that the system is a hybrid of 4e's power system and 3.5's psionics system.  

The crystal motif is mostly gone, replaced with orbs.  They did say you can make your orbs multifaceted crystals in appearance.  

Would fans of the 3.5 fluff like the new system?  I'm kind of on the fence about that.  It loses a lot of pseudoscience, but seems more fantastic.  The lack of crystals is the only thing that bugs me, but that can be a fluff thing.

*shrugs*

Now, if I can only translate Malhavoc's Crystal Proselyte PrC to 4e...


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## Rechan (Jul 8, 2009)

Was the augment/pp system for Psionics always present through the editions? Anyone know if it was done just to be different from magic, or if there was a specific reason for it?

I am just curious why Psionics in D&D has always been associated with the PP/augment thing. I can't really think of the 'augment' eever popping up in fiction.


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## Rechan (Jul 8, 2009)

Is it me, or is the psion going to get boring? Because you only get 3 powers an dyour dailies.

I mean, sure, you can augment the at wills, but that's basically like having three tricfks and those three tricks just get m more powerful the more you pump into it. It stil means that your options in a fight.


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## gribble (Jul 8, 2009)

xstevebob42 said:


> I agree with your theory and it's conclusion. It certainly creates large hassle for legitimate consumers.



And does little to stop dedicated pirates. As someone has pointed out, anyone with access to the article also has access to the compendium, and anyone with access to the compendium has the ability to create a pirateable complete document from the compendium.

I don't think it'll be long till it turns up on the torrent sites, and it just inconveniences those of us with subscriptions. Lose/lose.


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## Leatherhead (Jul 8, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Wow, can I _not_ get behind this. I agree that the _bulk_ of classes should follow the standardized system 100%, and most of them _do_. But to say that there should _never_ be classes that diverge a bit? That's remarkably limiting. It limits the designers who may have cool ideas, and it limits players who may want to color outside the lines a bit.
> 
> I wouldn't want a 4E class that _completely_ ignores the system, but one that steps outside of it to the extent that the psion does? Yes, please, even if I never wind up playing one.




Limitations are not a bad thing. They promote consistency and ease of use. Just think of the new guy trying to learn 4E. Having multiple subsystems creates confusion and raises the perceived entry level. Limitations also promote balance. While it is not impossible to balance with different rules, it tends to create more imbalances and more perceived imbalances (The "Whoa, I can't do anything like _that_!" factor)

The psion is _not_ a minor divergence. It completely removes a major core aspect of classes (encounter attack powers), and introduces a brand new mechanic with it's own resource tracking. There are feats and mechanics that just don't work without encounter powers. For example,  multiclassing is going to be quite awkard with a psion. 

The monk, on the other hand, is a minor divergence. It has all of the core mechanics the other classes have, while having it's own unique ones.


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Was the augment/pp system for Psionics always present through the editions? Anyone know if it was done just to be different from magic, or if there was a specific reason for it?
> 
> I am just curious why Psionics in D&D has always been associated with the PP/augment thing. I can't really think of the 'augment' eever popping up in fiction.




It's a legacy item.  

I'm not familiar with pre-2e psionics, but back in 2e, they used a version of Power Points called Psionic Strength Points.  Back in those days, you rolled a check akin to a skill check to see how you did.  Power Score was an augmented effect.  Then you could also have a fumble effect.

The 3.0 psionics were very disappointing, being a bit too much like a spellcaster, in my opinion.  I'll let others discuss this version.

When they came out with the 3.5 psionic rules, I was pleasantly surprised.  Power points and power advancement were similar to the 2e version, but they balanced it all out nicely so that powers had levels like spells did.  You saw how powers could be augmented, which was a nice throwback to Power Scores.  It was what I liked of 2e blended in to what I like of 3e.  

To me, there are a few things that make the psion iconic.  Power points and augmentation are two of them.  Now, I would like to see more of the psionic disciplines from prior editions, but I think we'll see that more with other classes and whenever they write up Psionic Power.


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## gribble (Jul 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Is it me, or is the psion going to get boring? Because you only get 3 powers an dyour dailies.




You also get utilities (and boy are they good - one of the lvl 2 ones is essentially shield+ and shield is already one of the better utilities in the game), plus encounter powers from your disciplines. 

Also, the augment effects make the at-wills comparable to "themed" encounter powers as well (i.e.: a good comparison would be that if scorching burst is comparable to a psion at-will, then that at-will + augment would be comparable to fire shroud).


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## Hawke (Jul 8, 2009)

Can I just throw out that the art is terrible? I don't mean that the artist is bad per se, I just don't like that halo-style. None of the three made me feel compelled to play this class... yeah yeah, i know... I don't mean to sound so shallow but







way cooler. I'll have to let those I'm a Psion I have crazy Mind Halos pieces of art sit a bit before I can objectively consider the class


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## Taralan (Jul 8, 2009)

I really like the fact that they have finaly broken the power structure for the psion. It helps answer one of the most common complaints about 4e, i.e. that all the class feel the same.

Too bad they did not venture earlier in that area. I can see Wizards as having a few at wills, no encounters and almost all dailies and the reverse for fighters (mostly at wills and perhaps no daily) to really bring back the flavor of the earlier edition for these classes. 

Add this to perhaps a few more conditions and I would be really happy with the variety ...

I hope they do venture in that area as well for PH3 but it doesn't sound likely at the moment.


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 8, 2009)

Hawke said:


> Can I just throw out that the art is terrible? I don't mean that the artist is bad per se, I just don't like that halo-style.




What causes the halos?  Is that just an effect that pops up when they use their powers?  Or could that be an ioun stone? Artistic liberty?  I didn't see mention of the halos in the article.

I think the one thing flavor-wise that I would like to have seen more is more crystals.  That was a cool theme back in 3.5.  Yes, they have orbs, but does that really cover that theme?


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## TheWyrd (Jul 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Was the augment/pp system for Psionics always present through the editions? Anyone know if it was done just to be different from magic, or if there was a specific reason for it?
> 
> I am just curious why Psionics in D&D has always been associated with the PP/augment thing. I can't really think of the 'augment' eever popping up in fiction.




A quick history of psionics in D&D:

Psionics were introduced to original D&D in the Eldritch Wizardry suppliment along with Druids, Demons, and Mind flayers. They were basically an add-on to your normal abilities and having them reduced other abilities. Theives for instance were less dexterous depending on how much psionics they had. You roll for your 'chance' (8%?) of having psionics and gained some attack/defense modes (kind of a rock paper scissors of who gets the upper hand in combat) and some other powers. The cost of using psionics was x number of psionic points per round. Interestingly, back then which powers you could get were based on class. There was one power list for fighters(including Paladins, rangers) plus thieves(including assassins), one list for mages, and one list for clerics. Druids and Monks did not have psionic potential, nor did non-humans.

The jump from OD&D to AD&D 1st edition was pretty straight forward. You still rolled for your chance to have psionics but your chance was even less. What were 'basic/superior abilities' (powers) became 'Disciplines' of either the 'Devotion' level or the 'Science' level. You still had a pool of points and a set of combat modes. Psionic combat isn't pretty. Basically an use of psionics lets everyone else who is psionic nearby know you are there and they usually come running. Once in psionic combat, there was a pretty good chance that you were going to at least put someone in a coma or be there yourself. If you lost and were resurrected, your psionics would be gone.

AD&D 2e kept the roll for psionics option but added in the option to have it in a class: The Psionicist. As a class, the psionicist actually resembled a supernatural rouge in that he was lightly armored, wasn't carrying around a whole lot of tools of the trade. It didn't hurt that the psionic system was something of a skill based system using the same structure as Non-weapon profeciencies (as they were called back then). 'Discipline' stopped refering to Powers and instead became the way Sciences and Devotions were categorized.. Telepathy, Psychometabolic, Clairsentience, etc. The psionic combat system became the corner stone of the Telepathy discipline as you needed to beat a psionic opponent in psionic combat if you wanted to use a telepathy power on them.

D&D 3.0 kept the disciplines for the most part, replacing the Metapsionic discipline with the 'metacreation' discipline. The uses of the old discipline had more or less been subsumed by the d20 feat system and this helped spread out what would otherwise be a very large telekinetic discipline. You no longer roll for wild tallent, instead handling this through multiclassing. Psionic points stayed with point costs for powers now mapping pretty much to spell levels. Psionic combat did its best to keep the deadly rock paper scissors feel by dealing ability damage. This became even more deadly when you took into account that each discipline was now tied to an ability score. (Yes, there were strength based casters).

D&D 3.5 ditched combat modes, turning them into telepathy powers. Wild tallents could be handled either through multiclassing or with a feat. The multiple ability requirement was removed, making psions INT based, Wilders CHA based, and pretty much all other psionic classes WIS based. The augmentation mechanic was put in place primarily as a method of dealing with power scaling (Fireballs do 1d6 per caster level. In a spell point system you have to pay for those extra dice). Finally, they added a 'psionic focus' mechanic which was really readying a little extra oomph in your mind. I'd probably do it as a stance in 4e.

I don't think I've covered everything but hopefully this covers the highlights for you.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 8, 2009)

Leatherhead said:


> Limitations are not a bad thing. They promote consistency and ease of use. Just think of the new guy trying to learn 4E. Having multiple subsystems creates confusion and raises the perceived entry level. Limitations also promote balance. While it is not impossible to balance with different rules, it tends to create more imbalances and more perceived imbalances (The "Whoa, I can't do anything like _that_!" factor)




I agree that limitations aren't always a bad thing. But they also aren't always necessary. And as I said, I agree that _most_ classes should follow the pattern 100%, but I don't think they _all_ need to.

And no, I don't believe that having a complex class like the psion is a barrier to entry. It's in the _third_ PHB! A new player shouldn't be starting with it, but an _experienced_ player might very well appreciate a change of pace.


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## Mistwell (Jul 8, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Is it me, or is the psion going to get boring? Because you only get 3 powers an dyour dailies.
> 
> I mean, sure, you can augment the at wills, but that's basically like having three tricfks and those three tricks just get m more powerful the more you pump into it. It stil means that your options in a fight.




You also get utility powers.  And, you don't stick with just three at-wills the whole time.  You replace old at-wills with a relatively new concept of higher level at-wills.  So, it will not be nearly as boring as it seems based just on a rough description.


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## darjr (Jul 8, 2009)

darjr said:


> I just had an idea bout Psionics and a way that the powers could work, not saying that's going to happen this way.
> 
> The At-Will's are modified by the encounter powers and the daily in a stackable fashion.
> 
> ...




I think I got pretty close.

I called Id-Insinuation as an at-will.


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 8, 2009)

TheWyrd said:


> AD&D 2e kept the roll for psionics option but added in the option to have it in a class: The Psionicist. As a class, the psionicist actually resembled a supernatural rouge in that he was lightly armored, wasn't carrying around a whole lot of tools of the trade. It didn't hurt that the psionic system was something of a skill based system using the same structure as Non-weapon profeciencies (as they were called back then). 'Discipline' stopped refering to Powers and instead became the way Sciences and Devotions were categorized.. Telepathy, Psychometabolic, Clairsentience, etc. The psionic combat system became the corner stone of the Telepathy discipline as you needed to beat a psionic opponent in psionic combat if you wanted to use a telepathy power on them.




AD&D 2e also had a revision in the Skills and Powers book.  In there, powers worked pretty much as normal, save that you had MTHAC0 and MAC (Mental THAC0 and Mental Armor Class).  In a sense, it's like making an attack vs. Will defense.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 8, 2009)

An awesome hybrid would be a Stalker Shaman/Telekinetic Psion, nothing would be more awesome then flinging an opponent into the air, and then having your spirit companion rip them apart the next round (or earlier if they provoke an opportunity attack).

For hybrid Psion I'm thinking they get:
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid): 
At will - You pick one at will from the Psion list as your at will, whenever you pick an encounter power for the Psion class you pick an at will power of the appropriate level.  Otherwise you handle augmentations and at-will selection as the Psion.
Power Points: You start with 1 power point, and gain the following throughout the levels.
1: 1
3: Gain 1 (2 total)
7: Gain 1 (3 total)
13: Gain 1 (4 total)
17: Gain 1 (5 total)
21: Gain 1 (6 total)
23: Gain 1 (7 total)
27: Gain 1 (8 total)

Hybrid Talent Option:
Discipline Focus: As the Psion feature.


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## Particle_Man (Jul 8, 2009)

Leatherhead said:


> Limitations are not a bad thing. They promote consistency and ease of use. Just think of the new guy trying to learn 4E. Having multiple subsystems creates confusion and raises the perceived entry level.




This is the PHB 3.  I think divergence is good here.  The new guy can get by with the 16 classes in the PHB and PHB 2 just fine.

edit: Ninja'd by Mouseferatu by a few short hours!


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 8, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> edit: Ninja'd by Mouseferatu by a few short hours!




Behold my remarkably slow and plodding ninja skillz and hippo-like reflexes! 

That's right, everyone. Give me three hours to work with, and you'll get the same!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 8, 2009)

Taralan said:


> I really like the fact that they have finaly broken the power structure for the psion. It helps answer one of the most common complaints about 4e, i.e. that all the class feel the same.
> 
> Too bad they did not venture earlier in that area. I can see Wizards as having a few at wills, no encounters and almost all dailies and the reverse for fighters (mostly at wills and perhaps no daily) to really bring back the flavor of the earlier edition for these classes.
> 
> ...



Different numbers of At-Will, Encounters and Dailies won't fly, simply said. The change the balance of your game. Some characters can suddenly go longer but can't pack a punch in need, while others "nova" and then basically have to go home.

The trick of the Psion is that he keeps the resource management concerns the same. You don't manage powers, but power points, but they are still your encounter resource. You could also create a seperate system for "daily" power points, but you can't mix them without breaking the balance.

Of course, there is a danger to the Psion - he can repeat his tricks more often then other classes. So you have to look out for broken combos more, since it's likely they are repeatable.


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## CapnZapp (Jul 8, 2009)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> Actually, you can save that stuff to your hard drive; I used Opera to save the powers as mht files, same way you can print them too. The Compendium does allow you print that stuff, e.g. with CutePDF you can save them as pdf files. Another option is to "save frame as", which allowed me to save the class description to my hd as an aspx file.
> (Any internet browser should be able to open aspx and mht files, btw.)
> 
> For the record, I agree with you that it's a hassle for legitimate customers.



Whoa... So you _can_ print it out then as a single & complete file? 

Then what prevents a pirate from doing exactly that, and then uploading the result to the intarwebs?

If true, this results in yet another anti-piracy scheme that only impacts legit customers... like CD detection systems for PC games which only legit customers ever see...

When will they ever learn...? *shakes head*


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## CapnZapp (Jul 8, 2009)

Or shorter: "As gribble said"


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## Peraion Graufalke (Jul 8, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> Whoa... So you _can_ print it out then as a single & complete file?




That's a bit more of a hassle, actually. Right now I've got the psion stuff as 53 separate, printable files (powers, feats, etc.). If I wanted to, I could compile that stuff into a text document or even a pdf (using a pdf editor), but frankly, that's too much work for me. Yes, I'm that lazy .

Yet I don't see why a dedicated, DDi-subscribing pirate (e.g. one who's more of computer geek than me) couldn't or wouldn't do it - even if it's just to prove a point. Btw, DDi stuff does appear on torrent sites, so there are pirates among the subscribers.


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## AllisterH (Jul 8, 2009)

Ok, here's something that I'm unclear about (probably missed it in the article...just point out where I did)

Do the augments stack? What I mean is, if I Augment 2, do I also get the effect of Augment 1 or do I have to pay both costs? If the latter, CAN I do both at the same time or must Augments for the same power be paid for in separate actions?


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## Dragonhelm (Jul 8, 2009)

AllisterH said:


> Ok, here's something that I'm unclear about (probably missed it in the article...just point out where I did)
> 
> Do the augments stack? What I mean is, if I Augment 2, do I also get the effect of Augment 1 or do I have to pay both costs? If the latter, CAN I do both at the same time or must Augments for the same power be paid for in separate actions?




The sidebar on augmentations says you can only use one augmentation at a time.  You cannot pay the cost for both and get both effects, for example.


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## Leatherhead (Jul 8, 2009)

I just realized Betrayal dosn't damage the primary target. It dosn't even hinder the primary target, unless you augment it. The possibilities that opens up are quite interesting, to say the least.


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## lutecius (Jul 8, 2009)

Taralan said:


> I really like the fact that they have finaly broken the power structure for the psion. It helps answer one of the most common complaints about 4e, i.e. that all the class feel the same.
> 
> Too bad they did not venture earlier in that area. I can see Wizards as having a few at wills, no encounters and almost all dailies and the reverse for fighters (mostly at wills and perhaps no daily) to really bring back the flavor of the earlier edition for these classes.



Yes this is a refreshing change, although I'd prefer dailies and utilities to be included in the power point pool.

The real problem is, as implied in your 2nd point, that there is no logical reason why the psion (rather than say, martial classes) should have this kind of flexibility.

So for me, this is too little, too late.


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## Charwoman Gene (Jul 8, 2009)

SO , you think martial classes needed a mana bar that refresshed per encounter, call it rage or energy.  Wow.


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## Caliber (Jul 8, 2009)

I read the entire Psion writeup within the Compendium before the article went live, so I didn't even notice the link thing as an issue. Looking back though, yeah that would've sucked. With the Compendium interface though I just searched for Psion and scrolled through their entire power list. 

One problem I have with lumping Psion knowledge under the Arcana skill is it feels like the skill is being overloaded somewhat. Now Arcana tells you about the Arcana AND Psionic power sources? Will it also tell you about the Shadow and Elemental power sources? Wimpy 'ole Religion just gets you Divine, and Nature just gets you Primal. This seems a bit lopsided, no? (That said, giving each source its own skill is also not tenable, so there has to be some middle ground solution. Maybe Elemental can be lumped under Religion, but I'm still not sure how Shadow knowledge will work ...) Any thoughts?


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## Rechan (Jul 8, 2009)

Mistwell said:


> You also get utility powers. And, you don't stick with just three at-wills the whole time. You replace old at-wills with a relatively new concept of higher level at-wills. So, it will not be nearly as boring as it seems based just on a rough description.



 I don't mean level by level, although you only get to replace a power at every two levels.

What I mean is round by round, encounter by encounter. Setting aside dailies and utilities, which only pop up (usually) once per day per ability, you're using only three powers every fight. Yes, you can supe up those three powers, but it's still the same trcik. Your strategy or variability in terms of 'what you can do' is fairly limited.

As a side note, I do hope that the other "disciplines" from previous editions show up in the other classes, rather than the psion. I personally really liked the psychometabolism discipline, and so I hope that gets eaten by the psionic defender. I would be willing to bet that the divining/precog stuff will get eaten by the psionic leader. (My other hope is that we'll see teh Lurk re-emerge, either repackaged in the Soulknife, or someting; the monk doesn't do it for me as a psionic striker.)


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## Rechan (Jul 8, 2009)

Caliber said:


> One problem I have with lumping Psion knowledge under the Arcana skill is it feels like the skill is being overloaded somewhat. Now Arcana tells you about the Arcana AND Psionic power sources? Will it also tell you about the Shadow and Elemental power sources? Wimpy 'ole Religion just gets you Divine, and Nature just gets you Primal. This seems a bit lopsided, no? (That said, giving each source its own skill is also not tenable, so there has to be some middle ground solution. Maybe Elemental can be lumped under Religion, but I'm still not sure how Shadow knowledge will work ...) Any thoughts?



Were I in charge, elemental would be related to Nature. And Shadow would be related to Religion. Purely because shadow = shadowfell = undead, which is keyed into religion. 

But Arcana all ready is a hefty skill package as it is. It handles rituals, it handles detecting magic, it handles other monsters, etc etc.


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## Jhaelen (Jul 8, 2009)

Peraion Graufalke said:


> That's a bit more of a hassle, actually. Right now I've got the psion stuff as 53 separate, printable files (powers, feats, etc.). If I wanted to, I could compile that stuff into a text document or even a pdf (using a pdf editor), but frankly, that's too much work for me.



... and that's exactly what they're trying to achieve. The point isn't to completely prevent piracy (which would be impossible), it's about making it more difficult to provide pirated copies.

If YOU think it's to much of a hassle, many or even most others will think so, as well.

Similarly, no amount of security measures will ever completely prevent code or encrypted data from being cracked or deciphered. The goal is simply to make it difficult enough that not everyone can do it in a couple of minutes. The more expert knowledge and time it takes, the less attractive it becomes for a would-be pirate.

As for the kind of hackers, that would just do it because it might be a challenge - they are not typically the kind of people who make it generally available if they were successful - precisely because they only care about the challenge.


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 8, 2009)

Caliber said:


> One problem I have with lumping Psion knowledge under the Arcana skill is it feels like the skill is being overloaded somewhat. Now Arcana tells you about the Arcana AND Psionic power sources? Will it also tell you about the Shadow and Elemental power sources? Wimpy 'ole Religion just gets you Divine, and Nature just gets you Primal. This seems a bit lopsided, no? (That said, giving each source its own skill is also not tenable, so there has to be some middle ground solution. Maybe Elemental can be lumped under Religion, but I'm still not sure how Shadow knowledge will work ...) Any thoughts?




I don't think it said that anywhere, though psionics can be rather "arcane" you could just as likely use insight (though that skill gets more than enough use too).


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## Particle_Man (Jul 8, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> Behold my remarkably slow and plodding ninja skillz and hippo-like reflexes!




As a side note, hippos are actually the deadliest animal in Africa.

The 6 Cutest Animals That Can Still Destroy You | Cracked.com


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## Kobold Avenger (Jul 8, 2009)

So how many people think we're going to get a class that uses weapon attacks with augmentations?

And I can already see there being the Shaper as a build in Psionic Power.  It seems like it's the trend to introduce a summoner build for any controller unless they already had summoning before (Arcane Power and Primal Power respectively do it for the Wizard and Druid).  Augmentable at-wills would be something like crystal shard or 1 round terrain effects, while dailies would be summoning astral constructs.


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## lutecius (Jul 8, 2009)

Charwoman Gene said:


> SO , you think martial classes needed a mana bar that refresshed per encounter, call it rage or energy.  Wow.



I think non-magical actions shouldn't be magically limited to once per encounter. At least a mana bar can be rationalized as rage or energy. Fire-and-forget powers cannot.


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## JesterOC (Jul 8, 2009)

gribble said:


> Here's probably the worst example I picked up on:
> Mind Thrust (lvl 1 at-will) vs. Psychic Brand (lvl 17 at-will).




I think the key to Pychic Brand is the huge damage boost given to the party for each hit.  This power is like turning the target into a pinata.  They can't hide, and every hit against them gets a fairly large boost to damage.  Skillful party members will use this opportunity to use their multi-hit attacks to crank the damage even higher.

Also just because it costs half as much as the other augmented power, does not mean you can use it twice as often. It may turn out that the creature dies before you can use it again.


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## Kwalish Kid (Jul 8, 2009)

TheWyrd said:


> A quick history of psionics in D&D:



An excellent history. I just want to make one addition.

The psionicist class was introduced in an excellent issue of Dragon magazine before 2nd Edition. I wish I could remember the issue, but I can provide the following details: faerie dragons on the cover; a really neat orc related dungeon (an award winner) inside; an ecology of the mind flayer; an article on Deryni (the Katherine Kurtz created fantasy race), that, in retrospect, was failed by the existing AD&D rules. The psionicist was a class introduced through an article supplementing the Deryni article. I don't have my copy of the magazine handy (obviously), but as far as I rememebr the class introduced the standard AD&D psionic attack and defense modes over time, along with choices for psionic powers from the existing list along with few new powers developed for the article. If one took the class, one could not have psionics through the standard method of character generation.


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## coyote6 (Jul 8, 2009)

Kwalish Kid said:


> The psionicist class was introduced in an excellent issue of Dragon magazine before 2nd Edition. I wish I could remember the issue,




#78, FWIW. Amusingly, Google led back to ENWorld (to the "read the entire run of Dragon" thread).


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 8, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> As a side note, hippos are actually the deadliest animal in Africa.
> 
> The 6 Cutest Animals That Can Still Destroy You | Cracked.com




You know, I actually knew that. But they're also not known for their lightning-like reflexes. 

(And as a side-side note, I love the fact that Cracked has become viable reference material online. )


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## Atlatl Jones (Jul 8, 2009)

JesterOC said:


> I think the key to Pychic Brand is the huge damage boost given to the party for each hit.  This power is like turning the target into a pinata.  They can't hide, and every hit against them gets a fairly large boost to damage.  Skillful party members will use this opportunity to use their multi-hit attacks to crank the damage even higher.



Mind Thrust has that effect too, and may be even better at it than psychic brand.  While +Cha bonus to damage is nice, mind thrust gives an effective +Cha bonus to all attack rolls, which arguably is even more powerful.



> Also just because it costs half as much as the other augmented power, does not mean you can use it twice as often. It may turn out that the creature dies before you can use it again.



If the creature dies, the psion can use the power on another creature.


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## gribble (Jul 8, 2009)

Atlatl Jones said:


> While +Cha bonus to damage is nice, mind thrust gives an effective +Cha bonus to all attack rolls, which arguably is even more powerful.



Exactly my point. Unless the target has some sort of concealment (which Psychic Brand would negate) the +Cha to hit bonus (actually better, because it stacks with other power bonuses to hit) given by Mind Thrust > +Cha to damage bonus given by Psychic Brand, even for multi-attack powers. The fact that you get this better benefit twice as often is just the icing on the cake.


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## JesterOC (Jul 9, 2009)

I can see your guys point about the powers mentioned. The main issue I have with the Psion is the forced loosing of powers to gain new powers.  I would feel much better if they just are able to add new at-wills for each encounter.   The unaugmented new power should have a power level of a 1st level at-will, that way the Psion gains flexibility but not any more power unless they augment the power.  

Oh well, I hope the powers that be read these boards and address these issues.  My favorite Psi powered class is still the monk.


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## Hawke (Jul 9, 2009)

I think I'm going to have to give this a whirl to really know how I'll feel about it. There's just so much speculation. I do like they're trying some various mechanics, but I do feel this would've been a great playtest to ensure good balance since it's so different. I do feel because of the style, it definitely wont lend to be a class for everyone the way I feel a good majority of the classes are. This is the first class that mechanics I feel get in the potential way of someone wanting to play it rather than just not wanting to play that role.

Do we get the impression from the article then that a Psychic Warrior and Soul Knife and Ardent (speculative classes) will all ditch encounter powers and use the augmenting system? If so, _that_ sort of bums me out. While I feel that it can work for the Psion, I'd be sort of bummed if that were the case - and its looking so. Yeah, I love the Monk's Full Discipline setup, but id' hate to see 4 other classes use it.


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## Caliber (Jul 9, 2009)

Anyone have an idea on how multiclassing or hybrid classing could work with a Psion (or anyone using power points?) Would they just trade out an At-Will, or maybe lose a number of power points? Both? What about multiclassing in?


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## Wolfwood2 (Jul 9, 2009)

gribble said:


> Exactly my point. Unless the target has some sort of concealment (which Psychic Brand would negate) the +Cha to hit bonus (actually better, because it stacks with other power bonuses to hit) given by Mind Thrust > +Cha to damage bonus given by Psychic Brand, even for multi-attack powers. The fact that you get this better benefit twice as often is just the icing on the cake.




Is this a playtest version of the class, or is it set in stone?  If it's a playtest version, maybe you can e-mail them and then can correct it by crippling Mind Thrust.


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## Cadfan (Jul 9, 2009)

Caliber said:


> Anyone have an idea on how multiclassing or hybrid classing could work with a Psion (or anyone using power points?) Would they just trade out an At-Will, or maybe lose a number of power points? Both? What about multiclassing in?



I don't know how it WILL be done, but I know how it COULD be done.

A power augmented to its maximum is apparently the equivalent of an encounter power.  Trade out one of your encounter powers, and gain the ability to use an augmentable power of equal or lower level once per encounter at its maximum augmentation.


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## Sir Brennen (Jul 9, 2009)

Charwoman Gene said:


> SO , you think martial classes needed a mana bar that refresshed per encounter, call it rage or energy.  Wow.



Actually, one of the MMORPG's I play has such a mechanic, though it's a bit reversed from a PP system. It's called Adrenaline, and the more times you hit and are hit, Adrenaline goes up to fuel the really big attack powers/skills. Something similar could be worked out for 4E (like the Iron Heroes Token system). So it'd work backwards from a PP system, with the pool of points increasing throughout the encounter rather than subtracting from a static starting number. It's also add to the different feel of martial characters. So, it's not an impossible idea. 

Or, we could assume that's exactly what's going on already with martial encounter/daily powers, and why they aren't repeatable in a given encounter.


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## coyote6 (Jul 9, 2009)

Sir Brennen said:


> Actually, one of the MMORPG's I play has such a mechanic, though it's a bit reversed from a PP system. It's called Adrenaline, and the more times you hit and are hit, Adrenaline goes up to fuel the really big attack powers/skills. Something similar could be worked out for 4E (like the Iron Heroes Token system).




That's more-or-less the WoW warrior's Rage mechanic, in a nutshell. IIRC, Iron Heroes had a class or two that used a similar mechanic -- they gained tokens by being beat on.

Of course, IIRC, most of IH's "martial" classes used the basic "start at zero and build up" mechanic, though the methods used to build tokens varied from class to class.


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## gribble (Jul 10, 2009)

Caliber said:


> Anyone have an idea on how multiclassing or hybrid classing could work with a Psion (or anyone using power points?) Would they just trade out an At-Will, or maybe lose a number of power points? Both? What about multiclassing in?




I posted my thoughts upthread...


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## gribble (Jul 10, 2009)

Wolfwood2 said:


> Is this a playtest version of the class, or is it set in stone?  If it's a playtest version, maybe you can e-mail them and then can correct it by crippling Mind Thrust.




Quoting from this month's Ampersand article:


			
				WotC said:
			
		

> This debut content, taken from Player's Handbook 3 (release date: March 2010), is fully designed, developed, and edited. It's ready for publication



So no, there isn't a chance to provide feedback and get it "crippled". I agree with the person who said upthread that this is the kind of thing that really *should* be playtested. We've already seen changes resulting from playtest feedback on more standard classes, which goes to prove that WotC's designers, developers and internal playtesters don't know it all. It's a shame they haven't learned their lesson...


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## Destil (Jul 10, 2009)

Yeah, the unaugmented epic level at wills look pretty pathetic, too, as was said upthread. So far it looks like psionic classes are the only ones who really run the risk of running out of juice after 21st, and that's a shame. Why can't the 23rd/27th level at wills do 2 dice of damage when not augmented? Feels like once you've burnt out your power points you just can't do much.

Likewise a lot of the augments are conditionally better only when your ability score is low/high... a lot of these don't look all that good at every level, and sadly some of the low level ones look better than some of the high level ones at high level...


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## Shroomy (Jul 10, 2009)

gribble said:


> Quoting from this month's Ampersand article:
> 
> So no, there isn't a chance to provide feedback and get it "crippled". I agree with the person who said upthread that this is the kind of thing that really *should* be playtested. We've already seen changes resulting from playtest feedback on more standard classes, which goes to prove that WotC's designers, developers and internal playtesters don't know it all. It's a shame they haven't learned their lesson...




Its not like they haven't made changes to existing material...


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## Hawke (Jul 11, 2009)

Shroomy said:


> Its not like they haven't made changes to existing material...




I think this will be an interesting errata test... being the class that is furthest away from initial rules I think it is entirely reasonable it'll need more tweak once it's really tested out. Makes me wonder when the first 4E Psion saw play and how many hours have been since then. 

I don't want to speculate that it is in fact worse, as several mechanics I've seen in some playtest articles have an initial "omg, that wont work!" but in play it turns out a good deal of playtesting validated that power/feature/etc... just curious as I think this is the biggest test so far. 

And still waiting to see if other psionic classes will not have encounters.


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## Zexsudel (Jul 11, 2009)

I know it was mentioned a few pages back but I think there is one flaw in the abilities scores used. 
Kalashtar from EPG don't get a INT bonus, and if there is a race that screams psion it is them. As it is they are "ok" from a min/max point. Of course I will recongize this is a min/max issue.


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## Mouseferatu (Jul 12, 2009)

Zexsudel said:


> Kalashtar from EPG don't get a INT bonus, and if there is a race that screams psion it is them. As it is they are "ok" from a min/max point. Of course I will recongize this is a min/max issue.




I had that same thought initially, but then it occurred to me... We don't know what the _other_ psionic classes are going to look like. If (just for instance) the psionic leader turns out to be more in line with the kalashtar, that'd be just fine. I think they need to be "aimed" at a psionic class of some sort, but it doesn't necessarily need to be the psion itself.


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## Rechan (Jul 12, 2009)

Mouseferatu said:


> I had that same thought initially, but then it occurred to me... We don't know what the _other_ psionic classes are going to look like. If (just for instance) the psionic leader turns out to be more in line with the kalashtar, that'd be just fine. I think they need to be "aimed" at a psionic class of some sort, but it doesn't necessarily need to be the psion itself.



Many moons ago it was mentioned in passing on the Tome Show by a designer that the Psionic Leader would be the Empath.

I'm willing to bet that the Psionic Leader will be using Cha or Wisdom, considering it's based on Empathy.


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## Zexsudel (Jul 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Many moons ago it was mentioned in passing on the Tome Show by a designer that the Psionic Leader would be the Empath.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that the Psionic Leader will be using Cha or Wisdom, considering it's based on Empathy.





Gives hope. I definitely agree the Kalashtar need a psionic class they are really suited for. Guess I am clinging to the old idea that the psion class is the catch all for psionics.


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## Shroomy (Jul 12, 2009)

I noticed the kalashtar thing too, but then I also noticed that their +2 Charisma, +2 Wisdom lines up perfectly with both of the psion build's secondary ability scores.  They'd still make pretty good psions.


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## Rechan (Jul 12, 2009)

Just now getting around to looking at the Psion.

Observation 1: Boy I want to play this. 

Observation 2: Anyone else find it funny that Level 15 is the first time the psion gets a power that Dominates, but the Bard gets one at level 5?

Observation 3: Man, using the CB for this is annoying.

Observation 4: Concussive Detonation At Will 27, looks to be the TK power. It even uses Wisdom.

Observaition 5: A Cunning Bard and a telepath Psion are a nasty tag-team. The Psion can throw down vulnerability to psychic damage, which the Cunning Bard does all the live-long day.


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## Starbuck_II (Jul 12, 2009)

Particle_Man said:


> As a side note, hippos are actually the deadliest animal in Africa.
> 
> The 6 Cutest Animals That Can Still Destroy You | Cracked.com





When did Hippos become cute? Though, I knew how dangerous they are.


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## Zaukrie (Jul 12, 2009)

I like that they are stretching the PC mechanics in a new direction. I like that a lot. I'm not sure how it will all play out yet, but I'm quite happy they've tried this new idea.


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## Hawke (Jul 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> Observation 3: Man, using the CB for this is annoying.




I wasn't planning on building one for a bit... but just curious why is it annoying with the CB? What could they do to make it better?


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## Rechan (Jul 12, 2009)

Hawke said:


> I wasn't planning on building one for a bit... but just curious why is it annoying with the CB? What could they do to make it better?



I meant how in order to see all the rules, you have to use the CB, instead of just reading the PDF.


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## Fallen Seraph (Jul 12, 2009)

Rechan said:


> I meant how in order to see all the rules, you have to use the CB, instead of just reading the PDF.



Try the Compendium instead. Very easy, you can click through Disciplines with ease. Read the whole Class section, etc.


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## CapnZapp (Jul 13, 2009)

I really think WotC shot themselves in the foot with this one.

Legit customers get a incomplete bothersome PDF and require an online internet connection to read about their new class.

As for everybody else, the completely useable and easily read rip is already out on the webs.

Thank about that for a minute, WotC, before the next time you cripple your products for your paying customers only but not in the slightest for everybody else. (There certainly wasn't a waiting period of several weeks, which at least WotC managed to win from stopping selling pdfs)

I can totally understand if you as a DDI customer would choose to download the "free" version, because it is *completely superior in almost all respects*!

WotC should feel free to add documents with links into their compendium as a free extra service; not as a replacement for a full pdf and/or a really stupid anti-piracy measure!


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## Baumi (Jul 13, 2009)

I prefer the way they showed the Psion, since it doesn't take as much space in the Dragon Magazine (which is wasted space as soon as the PHB3 is out) and I did not have to wait 2 Months till it the CB has it, but instead I could instantly play around with it (it's much more fun (for me) to try builds in CB than per hand).


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jul 13, 2009)

The Design & Development article on Psionics is online, btw. It's subscription only. 

Thread for discussion (I've posted two "excerpts" that I found interesting): http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/259209-sub-design-development-psionics.html


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## CapnZapp (Jul 13, 2009)

Baumi said:


> I prefer the way they showed the Psion, since it doesn't take as much space in the Dragon Magazine (which is wasted space as soon as the PHB3 is out) and I did not have to wait 2 Months till it the CB has it, but instead I could instantly play around with it (it's much more fun (for me) to try builds in CB than per hand).



Nobody argues the data shouldn't be in the CB.


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## AllisterH (Jul 13, 2009)

CapnZapp said:


> Nobody argues the data shouldn't be in the CB.




No, but there _ARE_ a vocal contingent on WOTC's forums who are unhappy seeing PDF articles in DRAGON magazine as they feel like they're getting shortchanged for their DDI payment.


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