# Excerpt: Fallcrest



## Fallen Seraph (May 26, 2008)

Welcome! I am your Real Estate Broker, Fallen Seraph. Today I have a wonderful town to show you in the DMG district. It is called Fallcrest


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## Rechan (May 26, 2008)

Rituals Wednesday.

Tiefling has Fire Res 9. Hmm.


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## Rechan (May 26, 2008)

I also notice that the Tief isn't built very exception-based. Looks like standard rogue stuff. Except for having one at-will.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 26, 2008)

Mhmm, if this doesn't prove once and for all that NPCs can be built using PC rules, nothing will.

I wonder how many NPCs will be like this in the DMG.


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## Kzach (May 26, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Mhmm, if this doesn't prove once and for all that NPCs can be built using PC rules, nothing will.
> 
> I wonder how many NPCs will be like this in the DMG.



I don't think they've ever said they can't be.

It's more that they don't have to be.


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## Drakhar (May 26, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Rituals Wednesday.
> 
> Tiefling has Fire Res 9. Hmm.





The NPC is 8th level so perhaps Tieflings get Fire Res of 5 + 1/2 level?


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## Rechan (May 26, 2008)

Kzach said:
			
		

> I don't think they've ever said they can't be.
> 
> It's more that they don't have to be.



Bingo. I think it's been said that if you WANT to, you CAN.

As an unrelated note, it looks like Infernal Wrath is +1 to hit, +Charisma to damage.


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## baberg (May 26, 2008)

I find it interesting that they gave a shopkeeper a full statblock.  I guess it would make sense if the PCs were on an escort/caravan bodyguard mission given the nature of Orest's business, but it just seems a bit of overkill.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 26, 2008)

Kzach said:
			
		

> I don't think they've ever said they can't be.
> 
> It's more that they don't have to be.



Yes, but there are still people who have asked if you still can.


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## small pumpkin man (May 26, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Rituals Wednesday.
> 
> Tiefling has Fire Res 9. Hmm.



Specifically Fire Resist 5 + half level.

I also liked seeing what looks like an NPC based off a PC class.


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## small pumpkin man (May 26, 2008)

baberg said:
			
		

> I find it interesting that they gave a shopkeeper a full statblock.  I guess it would make sense if the PCs were on an escort/caravan bodyguard mission given the nature of Orest's business, but it just seems a bit of overkill.



Uhm, he's a magic item trader. I realize your games (and mine) may be different, but killing magic item sellers for thier stuff is apparently feared by GMs everywhere.


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## LostSoul (May 26, 2008)

the article said:
			
		

> Once again the Nentir Vale is a thinly settled borderland where few folk live. This is a place in need of a few heroes.




Awesome.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 26, 2008)

I wouldn't be surprised if all key NPCs of the town get a full-writeup. So you can easily plug them into your game.


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## Terwox (May 26, 2008)

Excerpt was a bit lacking... I don't have a good idea of what kind of detail they went into, especially with the plot ideas.

The only one mentioned was "Orest can ask the PCs to run guard duty for a magic item shipment."  Not very interesting on its own, but, it is a seed.

I'm hoping we see some more elegant and interesting adventure seeds in the actual book.  If not, we can all do it on our own, but it would be nice to have a common idea base.  The d100 table in the 3.x DMG was not awful... not fantastic, but it was alright.


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## cthulhus_pinky (May 26, 2008)

I think that creating an interesting and realistic town is one of the toughest things to do as a dm, so this kind of write up in the DMG is a God send. I may not use it verbatim, but I will use it as a template to flesh out all of my towns. 

(BTW - really looking forward to rituals, like many others here.)


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## Saitou (May 26, 2008)

Terwox said:
			
		

> Excerpt was a bit lacking... I don't have a good idea of what kind of detail they went into, especially with the plot ideas.
> 
> The only one mentioned was "Orest can ask the PCs to run guard duty for a magic item shipment."  Not very interesting on its own, but, it is a seed.
> 
> I'm hoping we see some more elegant and interesting adventure seeds in the actual book.  If not, we can all do it on our own, but it would be nice to have a common idea base.  The d100 table in the 3.x DMG was not awful... not fantastic, but it was alright.



 You incorrectly assume the excerpt is the full write-up. It is not. It is an excerpt.

I'm quite liking what I read. Especially the backstory on the town itself, dating back four hundred years.


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## ZetaStriker (May 26, 2008)

Then again, that is just one shop out of an entire town and valley they're claiming to have info on.

And we've known about PC-class Templates for NPCs for a long time. I seriously doubt this guy was built using PC creation rules, he's just using the Rogue Template.


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## Kitirat (May 26, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Bingo. I think it's been said that if you WANT to, you CAN.
> 
> As an unrelated note, it looks like Infernal Wrath is +1 to hit, +Charisma to damage.




Or +1 to hit, +1/2 your level to damage (like the fire resistance).


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## Rechan (May 26, 2008)

The plot hooks and such should be organized into a table or a subheader o rsomething.


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## ZetaStriker (May 26, 2008)

Kitirat said:
			
		

> Or +1 to hit, +1/2 your level to damage (like the fire resistance).




But you don't get a 1/2 level bonus at level 1, so that would have made the pre-gen's damage boost a +0. It has to be Cha.


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## mach1.9pants (May 26, 2008)

I had to laugh







			
				excerpt said:
			
		

> Government: The human noble Faren *Markelhay* is the Lord Warden



 I read that as Faren *Malarkey*. 

Now it is stuck in my head!


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## mach1.9pants (May 26, 2008)

And I was really hoping for the stats of the town guard. Will they be minions? Will they be level 1. Or will they be WELL HARD!

Find out soon

Oh nice map though, looks like it can actually hold a 1000 people....unlike Winterhaven


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## FireLance (May 26, 2008)

small pumpkin man said:
			
		

> I also liked seeing what looks like an NPC based off a PC class.



I wonder if there will be guidelines for creating NPCs with PC abilities. This one has a number of abilities that follow "PC rules", e.g. fire resistance, Infernal Wrath, First Strike, Sneak Attack, Bloodhunt, and others that don't, e.g. doesn't have the full suite of PC powers, and his AC and defences seem to be higher than they should be (the point of difference in his attacks could be due to an unlisted Weapon Focus feat).

Ideally, the building rules should also be different for NPCs that are elite or solo opponents.


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## Fallen Seraph (May 26, 2008)

FireLance said:
			
		

> I wonder if there will be guidelines for creating NPCs with PC abilities. This one has a number of abilities that follow "PC rules", e.g. fire resistance, Infernal Wrath, First Strike, Sneak Attack, Bloodhunt, and others that don't, e.g. doesn't have the full suite of PC powers, and his AC and defences seem to be higher than they should be (the point of difference in his attacks could be due to an unlisted Weapon Focus feat).
> 
> Ideally, the building rules should also be different for NPCs that are elite or solo opponents.



I think so, given that the Customizing Monsters Excerpt had in the beginning: 



> Whether you want to bump an ogre up a few levels or turn it into an elite berserker, this section gives you the tools you need to tinker with monsters. You’ll also find rules for adding a class to a monster, mining the Player’s Handbook for combat powers.


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## FireLance (May 26, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> As an unrelated note, it looks like Infernal Wrath is +1 to hit, +Charisma to damage.



There was a photo of the Tiefling page from the PH floating around, and it stated that fire resistance is 5 + 1/2 level and Infernal Wrath is +1 to hit, + Cha bonus damage.


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## mach1.9pants (May 26, 2008)

Rechan said:
			
		

> Rituals Wednesday.
> 
> Tiefling has Fire Res 9. Hmm.



IIRC 5+1/2 levels

I also note that the naming convention of 4E continues: Fall-crest; Moon-wash; Brown-bottle; Swift-water; Star-light; Blood-spear; Stone-march; etc. Just an observation.....


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## TwinBahamut (May 26, 2008)

I have pretty much two reactions to this update.

1) The way they describe Fallcrest's relation to rivers and roads make it sound eerily like a town I was going to put in my first 4E campaign. In fact, I had a brief thought that I might use Fallcrest for that town months ago, but I didn't think fallcrest would be built on a dwarven trade road, an old King's road, and a river just like the town I was making... I need to adjust cardinal directions slightly, but it seems like a close fit. Even the timeline for the fall of the human empire and the influx of orcs is similar. A few details need to be changed, but I can use this.

2) The map isn't bad, but the layout of the town's defenses just seems a bit odd to me. With that particular placement of cliffs and rivers, it seems like the entire town should be on the eastern side of the river, north of the cliffs, not just half of the town. Certainly, there should be some parts of the town below (to help move cargo up the cliff), but not so much of it... I certainly feel sorry for the people living in the southwest, though. In case of an attack they need to cross a river and climb up a cliff in order to reach safety.


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## small pumpkin man (May 26, 2008)

FireLance said:
			
		

> There was a photo of the Tiefling page from the PH floating around, and it stated that fire resistance is 5 + 1/2 level and Infernal Wrath is +1 to hit, + Cha bonus damage.



Warning, large. http://www.flickr.com/photos/benimoto/2308404240/sizes/o/


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## LostSoul (May 26, 2008)

Terwox said:
			
		

> The d100 table in the 3.x DMG was not awful... not fantastic, but it was alright.




What we need are random adventure generators.


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## hong (May 26, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> IIRC 5+1/2 levels
> 
> I also note that the naming convention of 4E continues: Fall-crest; Moon-wash; Brown-bottle; Swift-water; Star-light; Blood-spear; Stone-march; etc. Just an observation.....



 I'm waiting for whale-road, wound-hoe, sky-candle....


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## Stalker0 (May 26, 2008)

I think the excerpt was solid. I definately get the points of light feel from this place. The whole area was once a bustling settlement, and then the darkness came and swallowed it up. Now its a battered place looking to rebuild, but there's constant danger out there just waiting for a chance to hit them again.

And while the npc was close to pc rules, definitely some differences. For example, he does far more damage than an equivalent level rogue, as PC doesn't get level bonuses to damage.


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## Andor (May 26, 2008)

Huh. I had low expectations, but they were happily exceded. 

Some of the population numbers have implications for those of us who care.

1. There are more people in town than in the surrounding farms. This means there is some sort of food generating magic at work even if it's off screen crop blessings. 

2. 5% of the population is under arms at all times. That is an enourmous number for a farming town. They must have some real problems in that valley. 

I really liked the map. It actually looks like a believable map of a town. It's in an appropriate place for a town to have grown up, and the ruins nicely show the previous size and collapse. The castle is realistic, although whoever failed to put a tower over the only access road need a flogging. The town actually looks a bit large for the population, but some of those houses could easily be old ruins.


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## beej (May 26, 2008)

Regarding the rogue, I have two words for you:

Class. Template. People keep ignoring that they exist. Sheesh.


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## FireLance (May 26, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> And while the npc was close to pc rules, definitely some differences. For example, he does far more damage than an equivalent level rogue, as PC doesn't get level bonuses to damage.



Actually, I don't think the NPC gets level bonuses to damage, either.

 Dagger +1 probably gets Strength bonus to damage.

 Sly Flourish probably gets Dexterity bonus plus Charisma bonus to damage (compare the KotS rogue who has +7 to damage and has Dex 18 and Cha 16).

 Dazing Strike probably gets Dexterity bonus to damage.

If anything, the NPC is missing a +1 damage bonus from his +1 dagger.


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## Jack Colby (May 26, 2008)

cthulhus_pinky said:
			
		

> I think that creating an interesting and realistic town is one of the toughest things to do as a dm, so this kind of write up in the DMG is a God send.




Too bad Fallcrest doesn't seem interesting or realistic.   I suppose it serves the purpose of totally generic D&D town for beginners well enough though.


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## Colmarr (May 26, 2008)

Jack Colby said:
			
		

> Too bad Fallcrest doesn't seem interesting or realistic.   I suppose it serves the purpose of totally generic D&D town for beginners well enough though.




Hmm. Let's see. Fallcrest:


Is divided in half by a cliff and a waterfall


Is overseen by a castle


Has two quays that require cargo to be carted from one to the other


Has an opening in it's southern wall filled with woodlands, leaving open the possibility of enemies or wild animals infiltrating the town

All in all I'd say that Fallcrest is far from generic.


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## Blackeagle (May 26, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> I'm waiting for whale-road, wound-hoe, sky-candle....




Actually, "whale-road" makes perfect sense if you think about the nautical definition of road as a short form of roadstead (an anchorage such as Hampton Roads or Lahaina Roads).


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## Korgoth (May 26, 2008)

Blackeagle said:
			
		

> Actually, "whale-road" makes perfect sense if you think about the nautical definition of road as a short form of roadstead (an anchorage such as Hampton Roads or Lahaina Roads).




That and it's the sea!


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## Praeden (May 26, 2008)

TwinBahamut said:
			
		

> 2) The map isn't bad, but the layout of the town's defenses just seems a bit odd to me. With that particular placement of cliffs and rivers, it seems like the entire town should be on the eastern side of the river, north of the cliffs, not just half of the town.




Since we know the town grew up around the keep, it probably started off this way.  I imagine that it was trade, not considerations of siege defence, which determined the direction of expansion.  If you have handling of boat cargo south of the cliffs, it's not long before you start building houses for labourers, taverns, warehouses, boat repair shops...


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## Blackbrrd (May 26, 2008)

The town has some 2500 feet of wall with 14 towers - No way they have enough men to man it in wartime... Half the town isn't protected by any wall at all (the one facing the river). One part of the wall isn't even intact.

The houses are spread out as if realestate is cheap to come by. I wonder if the people that draw maps like this have ever been in a town with a wall? The houses within the wall are crammed together. If they didn't need the space, they would make the area protected by the wall smaller. Building and maintaining a wall is very expensive. 

This looks more like somebody has taken a modern american town and built a wall around it, than a medival town.


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## AllisterH (May 26, 2008)

Now this?

This is one of the main reasons why I was interested in 4E. Does it really help new DMs (and I imagine the woman from the secret diary of a casual gamer is a good example).

re: RITUALS
If anyone is interested, I'm pretty sure rituals will be refined versions of the Incantation system from UA.


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## pweent (May 26, 2008)

FireLance said:
			
		

> If anything, the NPC is missing a +1 damage bonus from his +1 dagger.




I think the explanation for that is found in the Customizing Monsters excerpt. As an 8th level NPC, he has a magic threshold of +1, and therefore subtracts 1 from the bonus granted by magic items.

It's interesting to see how alike a PC and an NPC can look, with tiny reminders still that different rules still apply to them.


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## Colmarr (May 26, 2008)

Blackbrrd said:
			
		

> The town has some 2500 feet of wall with 14 towers - No way they have enough men to man it in wartime... Half the town isn't protected by any wall at all (the one facing the river). One part of the wall isn't even intact.
> 
> The houses are spread out as if realestate is cheap to come by. I wonder if the people that draw maps like this have ever been in a town with a wall? The houses within the wall are crammed together. If they didn't need the space, they would make the area protected by the wall smaller. Building and maintaining a wall is very expensive.
> 
> This looks more like somebody has taken a modern american town and built a wall around it, than a medival town.




Who said the wall was built recently? It's entirely possible that the wall remains from the time when Fallcrest was a city and had many more occupants. At that time maybe there was a much higher population density as you suggest, but if the town is rebuilding, it's understandable that people would spread out if they could.


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## hong (May 26, 2008)

Blackbrrd said:
			
		

> The town has some 2500 feet of wall with 14 towers - No way they have enough men to man it in wartime... Half the town isn't protected by any wall at all (the one facing the river). One part of the wall isn't even intact.




Correct. Now read the history of the town.


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## Campbell (May 26, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> Huh. I had low expectations, but they were happily exceded.
> 
> Some of the population numbers have implications for those of us who care.
> 
> ...




Population figures in role playing products should never be trusted. They're almost always nonsensical.


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## FireLance (May 26, 2008)

pweent said:
			
		

> I think the explanation for that is found in the Customizing Monsters excerpt. As an 8th level NPC, he has a magic threshold of +1, and therefore subtracts 1 from the bonus granted by magic items.



Well, my interpretation of that article was that the magic threshold is subtracted because the relevant enhancement bonus was already built into the base statistics of the NPC or monster. In this specific case, it appears that the enhancement bonus was built into the attack modifier, but not the damage modifier _if_ you go by PC rules, that is. 

Since NPCs aren't necessarily built according to PC rules, it's no biggie.


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## Lurker37 (May 26, 2008)

Come to think of it, wouldn't crop blessings be as common as buying fertiliser in a standard D&D world?

If you can shell out for super phosphate, you can hire someone from the local temple to come bless the crops, especially if it's been proven time and again to have reliable, significant results.

Sooo... if the local crop blesser was to go missing on one of his trips... *adventure hook*! "Find Johan Fieldson before harvest, or we all starve come winter!"


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 26, 2008)

On "classed" NPCs: 
Apparently, the NPCs primarily lack the daily powers. I can see why they did that.


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## reutbing0 (May 26, 2008)

> In upcoming months, you’ll find that adventures H1, H2, and H3 (Keep on the Shadowfell, Thunderspire Labyrinth, and Pyramid of Shadows) all have locations marked on the map of Nentir Vale. There’s no reason why the relatively generic settings and place names in those early adventures shouldn’t connect into a simple framework so that a Dungeon Master who wants to tie these places and events together can do so easily.




I love this. It will make the barrier to entry for DMs al lot lower. If loosely tying products together is a trend that will continue throughout the product line, it will create a bunch of modular subsettings that can be plugged into people's homebrews.  It will also reenforce shared experiences which fosters community. That community (with a little help from D&D Insider) could probably flesh that mini-setting out even more. I don't want to get too meta, but I do think these little things matter a lot. Also, that excerpt is pretty sweet. Sounds like a good starting point for a campaign.


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## Hawke (May 26, 2008)

Lurker37 said:
			
		

> Sooo... if the local crop blesser was to go missing on one of his trips... *adventure hook*! "Find Johan Fieldson before harvest, or we all starve come winter!"




Johan Fieldson is spending all his time over in Greenplains blessing crops that are converted into residuum thus raising food prices for everyone else! Go find Johan and convince him this hurts the poor people of Fallcrest with the higher prices and also harms the environment more than crafting magical items without residuum...

Convince Johan
Complexity: 3 (requires 8 successes before 4 failures).
Primary Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, Nature


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## That One Guy (May 26, 2008)

Lurker37 said:
			
		

> Come to think of it, wouldn't crop blessings be as common as buying fertiliser in a standard D&D world?
> 
> If you can shell out for super phosphate, you can hire someone from the local temple to come bless the crops, especially if it's been proven time and again to have reliable, significant results.
> 
> Sooo... if the local crop blesser was to go missing on one of his trips... *adventure hook*! "Find Johan Fieldson before harvest, or we all starve come winter!"



That sounds like a seriously fun hook to me.


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## Ulthwithian (May 26, 2008)

Re: The Tiefling's attack modifier, are people including the +1 attack bonus Rogues get with Daggers...?  That could explain the discrepancy, I think.


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## Mirtek (May 26, 2008)

Fallen Seraph said:
			
		

> Mhmm, if this doesn't prove once and for all that NPCs can be built using PC rules, nothing will.



I don't think he's build as a PC. He has only one encounter and no dailies. Looks like a normal monster build.


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## Ashardalon (May 26, 2008)

beej said:
			
		

> Regarding the rogue, I have two words for you:
> 
> Class. Template. People keep ignoring that they exist. Sheesh.



You'll notice that Orest is neither an elite nor a solo. Templates turn normal monsters into elites, and elites into solos. I see no reason to believe that Orest is the result of a class template.


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## Contents May Vary (May 26, 2008)

That One Guy said:
			
		

> That sounds like a seriously fun hook to me.




There was a short fantasy story I read once (Mother Aegypt by Kage Baker) where someone was going around selling special chicken feed. Unfortunately, this chicken feed was a little TOO effective, and people ended up with giant chickens running around terrorizing people. 

I think that could make a good hook too - Put the adventurers to work trying to find out who seems to have access to magics that are somewhat beyond their control.


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## Mirtek (May 26, 2008)

Colmarr said:
			
		

> but if the town is rebuilding, it's understandable that people would spread out if they could.



Knowing that the town was already sacked by an invading army, I would expect them to do the exact opposite to try to prevent such a fate from happening again instead of rebuild in such a way as to invite it to happen a second time


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## hong (May 26, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> Knowing that the town was already sacked by an invading army, I would expect them to do the exact opposite to try to prevent such a fate from happening again instead of rebuild in such a way as to invite it to happen a second time



 What on earth does that mean?


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## That One Guy (May 26, 2008)

Contents May Vary said:
			
		

> I think that could make a good hook too - Put the adventurers to work trying to find out who seems to have access to magics that are somewhat beyond their control.



That's also good. I don't have trouble coming up w/ my own hooks... but the ideas I get from what you two've said are really fun. I think I may have to build some ideas around them.


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## The_Fan (May 26, 2008)

He expects people to behave, collectively, as a reasonable individual would.

IOW, the mistake of _every social planner in history._


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## ObsidianCrane (May 26, 2008)

What struck me was the similarity to the Dungeoncraft articles actually.

Archive


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## Aria Silverhands (May 26, 2008)

I like it.  It's not a bad little town and will provide noob dm's good footing for creating their own world.  I personally never go into that much detail when I write something.  I just make up aspects of the towns and villages as needed.


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## ferratus (May 26, 2008)

I think the town of Fallcrest is having the problems that many towns in the former Roman Empire had after biker gangs (barbarian tribes) took over the government and started ruling their pieces of turf.    Simply put, maintaining monumental infrastructure is something that requires tax dollars, central planning, labour, and skilled technique.   Economies of scale.

Without the larger tax base, the slave power, and the ability to move around master masons and builders, the local fiefdoms of the Germanic chieftains simply couldn't build or maintain anything on the level of the Roman Empire.  As trade suffered due to the fragmenting of the economy, there became fewer number of skilled people were trained simply because there wasn't the means to pay for those skills.   People didn't become ignorant, that's why monumental architecture and innovation continued, especially by the church which had many of the advantages of the Roman Empire.  Namely, it had international contacts, a wide ranging source of income that didn't depend solely on the local tax base, central and stable leadership and volunteer labour (as cheap as slave labour, only with a better attitude while working).  

The town of Fallcrest on the other hand has a population deficit, and largely doesn't seem to have much of a tax base outside of the city.  It probably has to import food in fact, given that it is unable to completely defend its outlaying farms (which is why the population is largely inside the town).   I would thus imagine that Fallcrest cannot afford to fix the walls, doesn't have the people that know how to fix the walls, and doesn't have the people to man the walls either.

So what do people do when they get a sudden orc attack?  They run inside the keep.  That they can defend and maintain.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (May 26, 2008)

The map of Fallcrest looks like an expanded version of Dagger Falls from the Dalelands of the Forgotten Realms.


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## gscholt (May 26, 2008)

Could someone explain the numbers behind the basic stats for me? In the Orest Naerumar stat block it lists:


			
				Orest Naerumar statblock said:
			
		

> *Str*  13 (+5)  *Dex* 19 (+8)  *Wis* 14 (+6)
> *Con* 15 (+6)  *Int* 15 (+6)  *Cha* 20 (+9)



It seems to be (1/2) lvl + ability modifier, instead of just the ability modifier I'm used to seeing in 3e.
I'm speculating it's the modifier for ability checks (is that even in 4e?).


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## hong (May 26, 2008)

gscholt said:
			
		

> Could someone explain the numbers behind the basic stats for me? In the Orest Naerumar stat block it lists:
> It seems to be (1/2) lvl + ability modifier, instead of just the ability modifier I'm used to seeing in 3e.
> I'm speculating it's the modifier for ability checks (is that even in 4e?).



 Correct.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 26, 2008)

gscholt said:
			
		

> Could someone explain the numbers behind the basic stats for me? In the Orest Naerumar stat block it lists:
> It seems to be (1/2) lvl + ability modifier, instead of just the ability modifier I'm used to seeing in 3e.
> I'm speculating it's the modifier for ability checks (is that even in 4e?).



As hong said, that's correct. 

There are still occasions where the old modifiers are used, but the level-based modifiers are given since they are required for all untrained skill checks. ("raw" ability modifiers usually matter for special effects from powers or for damage, and are already included in the stat-block)


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## Dave Turner (May 26, 2008)

Jack Colby said:
			
		

> Too bad Fallcrest doesn't seem interesting or realistic.   I suppose it serves the purpose of totally generic D&D town for beginners well enough though.



I agree that, based on the thin excerpt we've seen, there's not much flash in Fallcrest.  But perhaps we should withold full judgment on Fallcrest until we've seen the full town?


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## LostSoul (May 26, 2008)

Mirtek said:
			
		

> Knowing that the town was already sacked by an invading army, I would expect them to do the exact opposite to try to prevent such a fate from happening again instead of rebuild in such a way as to invite it to happen a second time




That wouldn't leave much for the PCs to do, though.


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## Ethalias (May 26, 2008)

Hawke said:
			
		

> Johan Fieldson is spending all his time over in Greenplains blessing crops that are converted into residuum thus raising food prices for everyone else! Go find Johan and convince him this hurts the poor people of Fallcrest with the higher prices and also harms the environment more than crafting magical items without residuum...
> 
> Convince Johan
> Complexity: 3 (requires 8 successes before 4 failures).
> Primary Skills: Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, Nature




Topical win!


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## Mort_Q (May 26, 2008)

So that's where all the druids are!  Why risk your life adventuring when you can make a fine living out in the fields!


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## Lurks-no-More (May 26, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> I also note that the naming convention of 4E continues: Fall-crest; Moon-wash; Brown-bottle; Swift-water; Star-light; Blood-spear; Stone-march; etc. Just an observation.....



Also: West-gate, Water-deep, Shadow-dale, Grey-hawk...


----------



## Hussar (May 26, 2008)

Honestly, this town reminds me a lot of Orlane from Cult of the Reptile God.  If you took Orlane, rotated it 90 degrees, you get something pretty darn close to Fallcrest.

Like some wise man here keeps saying, 4e is retro man.


----------



## Oompa (May 26, 2008)

I'm going to use this town.. my pc's arent really into roleplaying so its easier for me to use this then create an whole town and the pc's do nothing with it..


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## Green Knight (May 26, 2008)

> 2. 5% of the population is under arms at all times. That is an enourmous number for a farming town. They must have some real problems in that valley.




The number's closer to 2.5% (which is kind of funny since, if you'd left out that space, you would've written 2.5%  ).


----------



## eleran (May 26, 2008)

Jack Colby said:
			
		

> Too bad Fallcrest doesn't seem interesting or realistic.   I suppose it serves the purpose of totally generic D&D town for beginners well enough though.





Maybe you could post one of your towns so we mere lay-people could glimpse the genius required for a non-lame town?


----------



## Fifth Element (May 26, 2008)

Lurks-no-More said:
			
		

> Also: West-gate, Water-deep, Shadow-dale, Grey-hawk...



Black-moor...


----------



## Novem5er (May 26, 2008)

I want my first 4e campaign to have a nautical feel to it, where most of the adventure spots are islands and the points of light are literally separated by harsh seas.

However, I want to use as much of the core fluff as possible, so the empire of Nerath was a sea-faring empire, Winterhaven is in the middle of a "starter" islands, and now Fallcrest is the port-city of that island. Of course, I had to modify the map 







What do you think?


----------



## hong (May 26, 2008)

That's awesome!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully (May 26, 2008)

Novem5er said:
			
		

> I want my first 4e campaign to have a nautical feel to it, where most of the adventure spots are islands and the points of light are literally separated by harsh seas.
> 
> However, I want to use as much of the core fluff as possible, so the empire of Nerath was a sea-faring empire, Winterhaven is in the middle of a "starter" islands, and now Fallcrest is the port-city of that island. Of course, I had to modify the map
> 
> What do you think?



I second hong.

I looked at the map, and wondered "so, why is he posting it? Should we point out what to change. Well, I suspect he should change the west side and remove the land mass. Wait, what's going on at the south, the water wasn't there in the original map, was it? 

"Stealth Mod". I'd say. Well done. I wait for someone with more understanding of geography to nit-pick your coastline.


----------



## Benabik (May 26, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> Some of the population numbers have implications for those of us who care.
> 
> 1. There are more people in town than in the surrounding farms. This means there is some sort of food generating magic at work even if it's off screen crop blessings.



What?  I fail to see why that's true.  A good size farm with 10 or so people (a large family) can grow many acres of a crop, along with some animals.  I see no reason those 900 people can't feed the 2250 in the area, using simple things like irrigation, natural fertilizer, and beasts of burden.  Having the local cleric ask for a blessing over the crops and cattle would just be a nice bonus.



> 2. 5% of the population is under arms at all times. That is an enourmous number for a farming town. They must have some real problems in that valley.



The sixty warriors means that there are about 20 people on duty at any given time.  This is for police duty, patrolling the wall, and guarding the castle.  That seems low to me for a PoL setting where they could reasonably expect orc raiders at any time.


----------



## Aria Silverhands (May 26, 2008)

Novem5er said:
			
		

> I want my first 4e campaign to have a nautical feel to it, where most of the adventure spots are islands and the points of light are literally separated by harsh seas.
> 
> However, I want to use as much of the core fluff as possible, so the empire of Nerath was a sea-faring empire, Winterhaven is in the middle of a "starter" islands, and now Fallcrest is the port-city of that island. Of course, I had to modify the map
> 
> What do you think?



Just one issue... the road on the lower left hand quadrant of the map leads to the beach... and nothing else.  I suggest putting a lighthouse / guard tower there.


----------



## Amphimir Míriel (May 26, 2008)

Lurks-no-More said:
			
		

> Also: West-gate, Water-deep, Shadow-dale, Grey-hawk...




OMG! 4E is so Retro!


----------



## Sitara (May 26, 2008)

I thought 4e was going to deemphasize the 'magic items are sold in shops' bit. Yet now in the dmg we have a magic item selling npc with full stat writeup.

The more things change...


----------



## Dacileva (May 26, 2008)

mach1.9pants said:
			
		

> I also note that the naming convention of 4E continues: Fall-crest; Moon-wash; Brown-bottle; Swift-water; Star-light; Blood-spear; Stone-march; etc. Just an observation.....



Almost as if real-world names were formed that way...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiftwater,_Pennsylvania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownstone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterhaven,_California
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairhaven,_Svalbard

Or as if other fantasy names were formed that way...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivendell
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyjoy


----------



## WyzardWhately (May 26, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:
			
		

> Just one issue... the road on the lower left hand quadrant of the map leads to the beach... and nothing else.  I suggest putting a lighthouse / guard tower there.




A _haunted_ lighthouse.


----------



## Andor (May 26, 2008)

Benabik said:
			
		

> What?  I fail to see why that's true.  A good size farm with 10 or so people (a large family) can grow many acres of a crop, along with some animals.  I see no reason those 900 people can't feed the 2250 in the area, using simple things like irrigation, natural fertilizer, and beasts of burden.  Having the local cleric ask for a blessing over the crops and cattle would just be a nice bonus.




Historically the ratio of farmers to city dwellers is about 9 to 1. In the US city populations didn't exceed rural populations until (I seem to recall) the 1950's. So to have better than 50% of the population as urban dwellers rather than food produces implies some factor that greatly enhances food production. Incidently this is also the same reason that having 5% of the population under arms is enormous. (Although Green Knight is correct, it's about 3% if you include the rural population. Which is still large.)



			
				Novem5er said:
			
		

> What do you think?



 Nice but to make it a desireable port there needs to be some kind of sheltered anchorage. Either it needs an outlying spit or island, or the mouth of the river should be at least a few hundred yards to a mile or two farther away, and the river larger so that ships could shelter away from the ocean breakers during storms. Just my 2 cents. 

Oh and the lack of a delta implies an immediate and steep drop off of the seafloor, which may or may not suit your plans.


----------



## Dave Turner (May 26, 2008)

Nice job, Novem5er.  I agree with Aria Silverhands' suggestion to do something with that road, too.


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## Novem5er (May 26, 2008)

Thanks for the feed back on my modified map (BTW - anyone is free to yoink it and make it their own - I'd be honored!).

Everyone's comments are well taken and I'd thought about most of them already:

1. The road to the beach - I thought it could be a small path that residents used to get to the beach, perhaps to launch dingies, etc. I like the idea of a lighthouse (haunted!), which leads to ...

2. Shelter from the sea - I had to work within the confines of the map, so I didn't have room to add much more. My idea was that there would be a small barrier island just off the map, maybe a 1/4 mile wide and a mile long. The lighthouse (haunted?!) could be on that island and the beach road (see #1) could be the local launch point that ferries supplies back and forth.

If I find time, I'll likely go back and draw over the farmland on the western lowlands, as I doubt they'd be growing crops that close to the sea, especially if all the water south of the falls is brackish. I figured that the fresh water from the falls would have carved a short rut into the earth that carries the water to the sea; no delta, just a quick drop-off . . . which, as was mentioned, could invite some creepy-crawlies and adventure.

If anyone's interested in how I've used the Core Fluff in my own campaign, The Sundered Isles, here's the thread that I first posted last month.

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?p=4198770#post4198770 

Thanks again for the feedback.


----------



## The Little Raven (May 26, 2008)

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> Black-moor...




Dragon-lance.


----------



## Fifth Element (May 26, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Dragon-lance.



Spell-jammer?
Plane-scape?
Raven-loft?


----------



## mach1.9pants (May 26, 2008)

Mourn said:
			
		

> Dragon-lance.



All right, enough already!


----------



## MindWanderer (May 26, 2008)

LostSoul said:
			
		

> What we need are random adventure generators.



Or this.

What strikes me the most about Orest is that even though he's numerically a level 8 monster, his abilities aren't even close to a level 8 PC.  Having only one at-will makes sense for an NPC.  I don't know what the level of that encounter power is, although I suppose it could be level 7 power (it does grant combat advantage for a round, after all).  No utility powers at all, and of course no dailies.  I'd infer from this that to create a class-levelled NPC, you grant them all the class features, one at-will, and one encounter power of a PC of their level... but if that's true, an enemy party of NPCs would be a dangerous fight.


----------



## Fifth Element (May 26, 2008)

My only problem with the name is the temptation to call it Falcon Crest.


----------



## AllisterH (May 26, 2008)

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> My only problem with the name is the temptation to call it Falcon Crest.




I wonder if there's a Knot's Landing nearby


----------



## The Little Raven (May 26, 2008)

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> My only problem with the name is the temptation to call it Falcon Crest.




As The Oerth Turns...


----------



## Spatula (May 26, 2008)

MindWanderer said:
			
		

> What strikes me the most about Orest is that even though he's numerically a level 8 monster, his abilities aren't even close to a level 8 PC.  Having only one at-will makes sense for an NPC.  I don't know what the level of that encounter power is, although I suppose it could be level 7 power (it does grant combat advantage for a round, after all).  No utility powers at all, and of course no dailies.  I'd infer from this that to create a class-levelled NPC, you grant them all the class features, one at-will, and one encounter power of a PC of their level... but if that's true, an enemy party of NPCs would be a dangerous fight.



No more so than an enemy party of same-level monsters, I think.  Monsters, after all, typically have one or two at-will attacks (one melee, possibly one ranged) and one to three encounter powers, plus potential monster traits (shifty, mob attack, goblin tactics, etc.).  Or pretty much what the magic item vendor has.  Realistically you're not going to be able to make use of all of a PC's abilities in one fight, and running a group with so many encounter options available to each member is difficult for most people to juggle.


----------



## drjones (May 26, 2008)

eleran said:
			
		

> Maybe you could post one of your towns so we mere lay-people could glimpse the genius required for a non-lame town?



Mine is like Great America but with a lot more booze, gambling and whores.  I call it 'Les Veguoos'.


----------



## Nikodemus (May 26, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> Historically the ratio of farmers to city dwellers is about 9 to 1. In the US city populations didn't exceed rural populations until (I seem to recall) the 1950's. So to have better than 50% of the population as urban dwellers rather than food produces implies some factor that greatly enhances food production. Incidently this is also the same reason that having 5% of the population under arms is enormous. (Although Green Knight is correct, it's about 3% if you include the rural population. Which is still large.)




Those numbers may be true as a general pattern, but they certainly aren't universally applicable.  If you look at 14th century Florence (which, is a highly urbanized area, but also gives the clearest picture of population figures) the city has a population of roughly 100,000 people (pre plague).  The countryside surrounding Florence contains roughly 80,000.  The highly urbanized Italian city states could have an urban population that exceed that of the countryside, as long as they imported significant quantities of foods.

So the population ration in Fallcrest seems a tad high, but not exceedinly so.  It just relies on merchants to bring in food.  Fortunetly, it finds itself located on valuable trade routes.


----------



## Andor (May 26, 2008)

drjones said:
			
		

> Mine is like Great America but with a lot more booze, gambling and whores.  I call it 'Les Veguoos'.




I'm gonna build my own town, better than yours! With blackjack and hookers! [/bender]


----------



## Andor (May 26, 2008)

Nikodemus said:
			
		

> Those numbers may be true as a general pattern, but they certainly aren't universally applicable.  If you look at 14th century Florence (which, is a highly urbanized area, but also gives the clearest picture of population figures) the city has a population of roughly 100,000 people (pre plague).  The countryside surrounding Florence contains roughly 80,000.  The highly urbanized Italian city states could have an urban population that exceed that of the countryside, as long as they imported significant quantities of foods.
> 
> So the population ration in Fallcrest seems a tad high, but not exceedinly so.  It just relies on merchants to bring in food.  Fortunetly, it finds itself located on valuable trade routes.




Err... yeah. Importing food doesn't change the ratios, it just geographically displaces the farmers. It also means you must have some kind of cash flow that allows you to keep buying more food. 

Whether or not Fallcrest has that flow, and if it can trade for food is up to the GM. As written the fluff seems to imply there is a lack of trade currently. But of course the GM will alter things to suit his own campaign, and whether the food is produced magically or imported there are adventure and plot possibilities with some impediment to food production/importation. 

At any rate we seem to agree that 900 farmers on their own cannot feed 1300 people without some kind of supplement.


----------



## Vlademeer (May 26, 2008)

cthulhus_pinky said:
			
		

> I think that creating an interesting and realistic town is one of the toughest things to do as a dm, so this kind of write up in the DMG is a God send. I may not use it verbatim, but I will use it as a template to flesh out all of my towns.




My thoughts exactly.  I usually detail the land my campaign is currently being run in and that includes all the settlements.  Having a template to do this is very handy.  I could probably do it on my own and have in the past, but since my current campaign has started I changed the format of my settlements 3 times.  

I like the idea of a full blown town that I can reference or use as a template.


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## Primal (May 27, 2008)

Fifth Element said:
			
		

> My only problem with the name is the temptation to call it Falcon Crest.




You too? I was instantly reminded of that TV series when I heard the name...


----------



## Primal (May 27, 2008)

hong said:
			
		

> That's awesome!




You know, I thought this day would never come... but I must agree with you, Hong. The map is awesome... there's one road that leads to the sea (on left side of the map) but otherwise it's a great version!


----------



## weem (May 27, 2008)

With inspiration from Novem5er, I decided to modify the map myself, only this version is pre-pillaged... (no ruins, no broken walls, more buildings, etc)...


----------



## Primal (May 27, 2008)

Stalker0 said:
			
		

> I think the excerpt was solid. I definately get the points of light feel from this place. The whole area was once a bustling settlement, and then the darkness came and swallowed it up. Now its a battered place looking to rebuild, but there's constant danger out there just waiting for a chance to hit them again.
> 
> And while the npc was close to pc rules, definitely some differences. For example, he does far more damage than an equivalent level rogue, as PC doesn't get level bonuses to damage.




I was not that impressed by it, because I think Rich Baker's other Dragon articles (and his writing in general) have always been much more inspiring -- the content in this one seemed pretty "bland" in feel, and all the names felt also quite "uninspired" to me (e.g. Moon Hills, Blue Moon, Lucky Gnome, Nentir Inn, King's Road, etc.). Maybe it's because I really expect Rich's stuff to be mind-blowing in nature that I felt a bit disappointed by the excerpt? Anyway, it's not bad, but I felt that Saltmarsh in DMG II was far more inspiring and it also had a lot of intriguing plot hooks and NPCs. Of course, I need to see the full entry to make my final judgement on the matter.

The map is actually quite good, although at first I was bothered by the extent of the walls and the heavily-fortified keep/castle in a small town. Then I spotted the obvious ruined sections of the town and the walls, and I realized that Fallcrest is probably built on the site of another ancient town or city (which should provide nice adventuring hooks).

The only thing really troubling me is that there are three whole temples in small town like this, while it would be more realistic to assume that there is only one temple at most or several smaller shrines. However, this may be linked to the town's past, or perhaps Fallcrest is important enough to merit three faiths investing in temples and clergy.   

Also, the only NPC seems to be a "hybrid" version between 'exception-based' monster design and PC creation rules. Why is that? Why couldn't the tiefling be either a "DM PC" or a monster? 

As I already mentioned above, the only adventure hook mentioned is pretty obvious and therefore a bit weak.


----------



## Lurker59 (May 27, 2008)

The other possibilty is that some of the population lives in town, but works in nearby farms. The possibility of orcish raids and such may mean that workers (or maybe just their families) choose to live in the town, while still working at a nearby farm. Obviously this wouldn't work to explain more outlying farms, but the level on danger is probably much greater than farmers historically were confronted with.


----------



## Aria Silverhands (May 27, 2008)

weem said:
			
		

> With inspiration from Novem5er, I decided to modify the map myself, only this version is pre-pillaged... (no ruins, no broken walls, more buildings, etc)...



I might have to borrow your map for a campaign in which the pc's have a chance to save Fallcrest from devastation and use the default map if they fail.


----------



## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Primal said:
			
		

> I was not that impressed by it, because I think Rich Baker's other Dragon articles (and his writing in general) have always been much more inspiring -- the content in this one seemed pretty "bland" in feel, and all the names felt also quite "uninspired" to me (e.g. Moon Hills, Blue Moon, Lucky Gnome, Nentir Inn, King's Road, etc.). Maybe it's because I really expect Rich's stuff to be mind-blowing in nature that I felt a bit disappointed by the excerpt? Anyway, it's not bad, but I felt that Saltmarsh in DMG II was far more inspiring and it also had a lot of intriguing plot hooks and NPCs. Of course, I need to see the full entry to make my final judgement on the matter.
> 
> The map is actually quite good, although at first I was bothered by the extent of the walls and the heavily-fortified keep/castle in a small town. Then I spotted the obvious ruined sections of the town and the walls, and I realized that Fallcrest is probably built on the site of another ancient town or city (which should provide nice adventuring hooks).
> 
> ...




I would point out that my home town of 900 people had six churches.  A temple needs what, a priest, maybe an acolyte or two and that's pretty much it.  Multiple churches in a community is certainly not out of line.


----------



## Jack Colby (May 27, 2008)

I wasn't going to mention it, but since others already have... yes, I think Falcon Crest when I see the name, too.  There's no way I could use this at the gaming table.  I'd provoke laughter and wisecracks every time it was said aloud.  I guess this really was designed for young people who won't instantly recall that very popular series from the 80's.  I can imagine some  unaware DM using the name and having his group start making old soap opera jokes, ruining the mood.  

And, yes, I think _most_ of the 4E names are overly simplistic and more than a bit silly-sounding, but I will deal.  Still excited about the game and the rules. These kinds of things just amuse me, and I kind of wonder about where the minds of the people who make these names up are at.  I suspect they don't say any of these names aloud a few times before finalizing them, which is always good practice when dealing with fantasy.


----------



## Alikar (May 27, 2008)

Primal said:
			
		

> The map is actually quite good, although at first I was bothered by the extent of the walls and the heavily-fortified keep/castle in a small town. Then I spotted the obvious ruined sections of the town and the walls, and I realized that Fallcrest is probably built on the site of another ancient town or city (which should provide nice adventuring hooks).




If you had bothered to actually read the article you would know that the city suffered a major orc raid 90 years prior and is still trying to recover.


----------



## Jack Colby (May 27, 2008)

eleran said:
			
		

> Maybe you could post one of your towns so we mere lay-people could glimpse the genius required for a non-lame town?




Defensive much?  

Besides, I don't have to create or post a "genius" town, I am not getting paid by WotC to write content for a major game release.  What you're suggesting is silly... it's the old "you can't criticize something unless you can create it better" argument, which holds no water.  Can't someone who's not a cook say their meal doesn't taste very good?

But seriously, this town (so far) seems like they just took generic elements from the many D&D towns of the past and renamed them a bit.  No "new" imagination required, just copy the work of others and it's finished.  Maybe it will seem better once the rest of it is described, and _as I said_, it will probably fill the needs of a new DM looking for a simple town to start in. If that's their intent, great.  It doesn't sound too inspiring so far though, merely serviceable.


----------



## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Jack Colby said:
			
		

> I wasn't going to mention it, but since others already have... yes, I think Falcon Crest when I see the name, too.  There's no way I could use this at the gaming table.  I'd provoke laughter and wisecracks every time it was said aloud.  I guess this really was designed for young people who won't instantly recall that very popular series from the 80's.  I can imagine some  unaware DM using the name and having his group start making old soap opera jokes, ruining the mood.
> 
> And, yes, I think _most_ of the 4E names are overly simplistic and more than a bit silly-sounding, but I will deal.  Still excited about the game and the rules. These kinds of things just amuse me, and I kind of wonder about where the minds of the people who make these names up are at.  I suspect they don't say any of these names aloud a few times before finalizing them, which is always good practice when dealing with fantasy.




Falcon Crest ended in 1990.  That's almost twenty years ago.  I'm 35 years old and I barely remember the show.  I certainly never watched it.  How many here actually did?  Popular?  I was barely aware it existed, other than I knew it was some sort of Dallas spin off.  Certainly anyone under the age of 30 who might have seen it, has only seen it in reruns, if at all.  I know that it wasn't getting much air time after it ended in Canada.  Or it certainly didn't seem to.

Jeez.  Jokes?  How many gamers would actually recognize the comparison?


----------



## Primal (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> I would point out that my home town of 900 people had six churches.  A temple needs what, a priest, maybe an acolyte or two and that's pretty much it.  Multiple churches in a community is certainly not out of line.




A smaller "church" is usually called a shrine. A temple, to me, implies more than one priest, servants, armsmen and a host of lay worshippers. At least, that's how temples work in FR.


----------



## Primal (May 27, 2008)

Alikar said:
			
		

> If you had bothered to actually read the article you would know that the city suffered a major orc raid 90 years prior and is still trying to recover.




You know, I *did* read that sentence and still the fact escaped my attention. I guess it was due to the pretty bland writing style that kind of dulled my senses or something -- or my disappointment at the fact that it was Rich Baker who wrote this, and I expected a lot more from him?


----------



## weem (May 27, 2008)

Aria Silverhands said:
			
		

> I might have to borrow your map for a campaign in which the pc's have a chance to save Fallcrest from devastation and use the default map if they fail.




Cool


----------



## Nikodemus (May 27, 2008)

Primal said:
			
		

> A smaller "church" is usually called a shrine. A temple, to me, implies more than one priest, servants, armsmen and a host of lay worshippers. At least, that's how temples work in FR.




Most of the medieval cities for which I have seen demographics have roughly one church for each 200-300 people.  One would assume that the  number of religious structures would only increase in a polytheistic society.


----------



## Spatula (May 27, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> Whether or not Fallcrest has that flow, and if it can trade for food is up to the GM. As written the fluff seems to imply there is a lack of trade currently.



Fluff says, "Fallcrest imports finished goods from the larger cities downriver and ironwork from the dwarf town of Hammerfast, and exports timber, leather, fruit, and grain. It also trades with the nearby town of Winterhaven."  Which doesn't mention importing food (in fact, it's exporting it), but does seem the town enjoys some healthy trade.


----------



## Irda Ranger (May 27, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Fluff says, "Fallcrest imports finished goods from the larger cities downriver and ironwork from the dwarf town of Hammerfast, and exports timber, leather, fruit, and grain. It also trades with the nearby town of Winterhaven."  Which doesn't mention importing food (in fact, it's exporting it), but does seem the town enjoys some healthy trade.



The fact that it exports fruit and grain only make the rural/urban population ratios that much worse. You have to assume that Fallcrest is agriculturally supporting even more townspeople in the towns it trades with for finished goods and ironwork.

Maybe the article on Rituals will clear this up. 

But somewhat seriously, the sage in Winterhaven is said to have access to a few 1st and 2nd level Rituals, and we must assume that the priests in these Temples do too. A few simple spells like _Detect Early Frost_, _Protection From Blight_ or _Plant Growth_ would boost agricultural productivity quite a bit.  Maybe the local alchemist knows how to make killer fertilizer using firebeetle dung and a few Dryad tears.  Who knows?  

Here's a post I made on the topic a while ago: (link)

My old post doesn't address the question directly though of how many farmers it takes to feed a given population.  Frankly I don't care too much, as long as the campaign does not appear absurd on its face even to my non-caring players, but the answer to the question of "How many farmers?" also depends on a lot of factors.  D&D farms don't have John Deer tractors, but maybe they have some domesticated Kruthik with a Burrow 4 movement rate that can plow a field in an afternoon.  Of course, "plow" would be the wrong verb then ....


----------



## Vempyre (May 27, 2008)

> The fact that it exports fruit and grain only make the rural/urban population ratios that much worse.




No everage player will ever care about that, or even wonder about it. Only zealous world builders will do that and we all know that 4E isn't about that, it's about having a fun action game to play. Why should anybody care if in their game's favorite town their is less farmers than a real world equivalent town? DnD isn't about farming, it's about heroic deeds and kickin dragon butts.


----------



## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Primal said:
			
		

> A smaller "church" is usually called a shrine. A temple, to me, implies more than one priest, servants, armsmen and a host of lay worshippers. At least, that's how temples work in FR.




Depends on what you mean by a shrine really.  Are you talking about a simple location with a symbolic meaning, or do you mean an actual working place.  Note, that shrine can easily mean temple (the only real difference is one is Buddhist and one is Shinto).  Or, at least that's how it works in Japan.

And, no, that's not how temples work in FR.  That's how major temples in FR work.  But, small temples in small areas don't have all that.  

I guess the problem is, the word temple simply refers to any building where a diety is worshipped.  It could be a large structure or a small one.


----------



## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Vempyre said:
			
		

> No everage player will ever care about that, or even wonder about it. Only zealous world builders will do that and we all know that 4E isn't about that, it's about having a fun action game to play. Why should anybody care if in their game's favorite town their is less farmers than a real world equivalent town? DnD isn't about farming, it's about heroic deeds and kickin dragon butts.




This.

I mean, come on.  As a player, what's the population of Orlane?  Hommlet?  Saltmarsh?  Did you ask?  Did you remotely, even in the slightest, give the tiniest bit of though to the ratio of farmers to townspeople?  Come on.  No one cares.

You describe the town to the players as, "You pass through some outlying farms and come to the largish town."  End of story.  All this world building simulationist wankery is ridiculous.  You want that level of detail, play Harn or Gurps.  Since when has D&D even remotely given the slightest nod towards the gripes we're seeing here?


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## Andor (May 27, 2008)

Vempyre said:
			
		

> No everage player will ever care about that, or even wonder about it. Only zealous world builders will do that and we all know that 4E isn't about that, it's about having a fun action game to play. Why should anybody care if in their game's favorite town their is less farmers than a real world equivalent town? DnD isn't about farming, it's about heroic deeds and kickin dragon butts.




I've seen games come to a screeching halt over stuff like this. Why? We needed to evacuate the valley due to an oncoming Orc horde, and since we knew how many people were in town we started making evacuation plans based on a guess of the valleys population. It turned out the GM was using different numbers, and we got derailed into figureing out how food and logistics worked in the campaign, since it differed markedly from real world expectations and the GM hadn't worked it out before hand. 

Perhaps warning farmers and protecting an evacuation isn't heroic enough for you though...


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## small pumpkin man (May 27, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> I've seen games come to a screeching halt over stuff like this. Why? We needed to evacuate the valley due to an oncoming Orc horde, and since we knew how many people were in town we started making evacuation plans based on a guess of the valleys population. It turned out the GM was using different numbers, and we got derailed into figureing out how food and logistics worked in the campaign, since it differed markedly from real world expectations and the GM hadn't worked it out before hand.
> 
> Perhaps warning farmers and protecting an evacuation isn't heroic enough for you though...



That's a problem with communication, not worldbuilding.


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## Andor (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> You describe the town to the players as, "You pass through some outlying farms and come to the largish town."  End of story.  All this world building simulationist wankery is ridiculous.  You want that level of detail, play Harn or Gurps.  Since when has D&D even remotely given the slightest nod towards the gripes we're seeing here?




Who's griping? Those of us who care have sussed out several adventure possibilities, suggested by the need for an explanation. The only people whining as you lot who are apparently offended that we enjoy discussing this stuff. 

Sorry if our thinking too much offends you...


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## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Andor said:
			
		

> Who's griping? Those of us who care have sussed out several adventure possibilities, suggested by the need for an explanation. The only people whining as you lot who are apparently offended that we enjoy discussing this stuff.
> 
> Sorry if our thinking too much offends you...




Adventure possibilities?  Sorry, must have missed that in the whinging about how there are too many guards as a percentage of population, or not enough farmers to support, or the price of walls would be too much or ...

Well, you get the point.

Heck, take a look at evacuating the village.  Well, we know there's a couple of thousand people, so, the DM says, "Ok, the people follow you, they have about six days of food and water.  What do you do."  Instead of spending several hours trying to count the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.


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## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Hang on a tick. 

About the population distribution.  It's 1300 in town with another 900 scattered within a few miles.  So, everything on that map is considered in town.  Just looking at the map, you can see farms.  So, at least some of that 1300 are farmers.  It's not that there are only 900 farmers.  There could easily be 1500 farmers and 700 towns people.  Or whatever ratio tickles your fancy.


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## Andor (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Adventure possibilities?  Sorry, must have missed that in the whinging about how there are too many guards as a percentage of population, or not enough farmers to support, or the price of walls would be too much or ...
> 
> Well, you get the point.




Not really. There was no whining about the numbers before Vampyre and you, just discussion. 

Except for the wall, and that was someone who hadn't paid attention. So no, I don't get your point. 

Why does it offend you that some people like to discuss aspects of world design that don't interest you? Why not ignore it, rather than raise a stink about our badwrongfun?


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## Spatula (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> I mean, come on.  As a player, what's the population of Orlane?  Hommlet?  Saltmarsh?  Did you ask?  Did you remotely, even in the slightest, give the tiniest bit of though to the ratio of farmers to townspeople?  Come on.  No one cares.



And yet, the majority of the Fallcrest excerpt is stuff that "no one cares" about.  So why is it there in the DMG?


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## Dr. Strangemonkey (May 27, 2008)

Here's what I don't get about the urban vs rural population gripe.

This is a rural population.  Heck a good Pueblo in the American Southwest could boast better numbers than this and though those were civil they certainly weren't urban.  Mind you maize is a better producing crop than wheat, but they would have also lacked domestic animals and were working in a far more hostile environment.

I like that the layout really reflects the feel of ruined city like Rome. 

People probably have pasturage and working gardens within the ruins of the city walls.


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## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> And yet, the majority of the Fallcrest excerpt is stuff that "no one cares" about.  So why is it there in the DMG?




Really?  The majority of the excerpt is material that will directly impact the PC's.  The merchant who buys your ill gotten loot and sells you magic items.  The temples where you get healed/res'd after dying.  The inn, the tavern and the supply post.  Gee, all stuff directly related to what PC's are likely going to be doing.

What you don't see are six page documents detailing the shape of windows.  Or lengthy treatises regarding the ratio of farmers to population.  Or how much money that wall cost to construct.  

Y'know, the unimportant  that no one other than world builders care about.


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## Spatula (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Y'know, the unimportant  that no one other than world builders care about.



Ah, like population numbers, what the populace does for a living, imports & exports, high-priced inns (only need the basic room on your stopover to killing more monsters), the names of different watering holes (why more than one? why bother with a name even? who cares what it's called, right? you can't kill it), who in the government handles routine commerce & public projects, how that person is chosen for their job, etc. etc. etc.

I mean, I agree with you, all that stuff is useless if you're just on your way to the action movie in the dungeon.  Nevertheless, the above (and possibly more, as presumably the excerpt is only a portion of it) is all in the DMG.


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## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Ah, like population numbers, what the populace does for a living, imports & exports, high-priced inns (only need the basic room on your stopover to killing more monsters), the names of different watering holes (why more than one? why bother with a name even? who cares what it's called, right? you can't kill it), who in the government handles routine commerce & public projects, how that person is chosen for their job, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> I mean, I agree with you, all that stuff is useless if you're just on your way to the action movie in the dungeon.  Nevertheless, the above (and possibly more, as presumably the excerpt is only a portion of it) is all in the DMG.




You're probably right.  The reason being the apoplectic nerd frenzy that would result if they didn't include it.  The fact that 99% of it will never see the light of day will not stop people from insisting that IT MUST BE THERE.  

Isn't it funny though.  I look at the fact that there's more than one inn and figure, ok, well, you've got a high end inn for one type of adventures and a low end inn for other types of adventures.  Others look at the previews and worry over whether or  not the economics of this fictitious town works.

In my mind, people should spend far more energy actually worrying about stuff that matters at the table and a lot less time with world building.  Obviously I'm in the minority here.

What really makes me shake my head is this presumption that if you aren't spending all this time and energy on "who in the government handles routine commerce & public projects", your game is nothing but mindless hack fests with no depth.  Since when does amateur fan fic=deep meaningful play?  The incredible arrogance I see whenever this comes up just astonishes me.  

See, if you want to spend all that time doing all that background work, more power to you.  Go right ahead.  But, don't presume that my game is any less rewarding or deep just because I choose to focus on the campaign rather than, what I consider to be trivia.


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## Mort_Q (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> In my mind, people should spend far more energy actually worrying about stuff that matters at the table and a lot less time with world building.  Obviously I'm in the minority here.




Although I agree, I also think that world building is... fun.


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## Wormwood (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> In my mind, people should spend far more energy actually worrying about stuff that matters at the table and a lot less time with world building.  Obviously I'm in the minority here.



The minority *here*, perhaps, as ENWorld skews heavily toward DMs---obsessive DMs at that.

But I wouldn't say we are in the minority of D&D gamers (especially considering that world-building tends to be a solitary pursuit). 



> See, if you want to spend all that time doing all that background work, more power to you.  Go right ahead.  But, don't presume that my game is any less rewarding or deep just because I choose to focus on the campaign rather than, what I consider to be trivia.



Thank you.

My games have *improved* since I focused my energies toward the table and away from my notebooks (so to speak).


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## Nikodemus (May 27, 2008)

Dr. Strangemonkey said:
			
		

> Here's what I don't get about the urban vs rural population gripe.
> 
> This is a rural population.  Heck a good Pueblo in the American Southwest could boast better numbers than this and though those were civil they certainly weren't urban.  Mind you maize is a better producing crop than wheat, but they would have also lacked domestic animals and were working in a far more hostile environment.
> 
> ...




The presence of walls (and various legal privileges to those within them) traditionally defines urban space in the middle ages.  1000 people inside a walled space certainly counts as urban for medieval Europe.  As numerous poeple have pointed out, however, we lack the number of people living inside the walls and the pictures don't suggest that it is all that many.


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## DeusExMachina (May 27, 2008)

While it's fun to create worlds, I always try to keep it useful. Whether a farm town has 60% farmers or 65% farmers is a totally useless difference to me as DM and also to my players.
However, a 500 man mining town in the middle of the mountains with no fertile farm land around (my starting campaign) needs some way of getting food, because it's obvious that they have no regular food supply. So I invented an edible mushroom that gets farmed in several of the caves creating by mining, which forms the basis of their diet, which is supplemented by hunting and regular caravans with food supplies.
Now we have new locations (the caves with food), new NPC's (the hunters and food merchants) and possible storylines (what happens when the food supply gets cut off somehow?). That imo is effective worldbuilding that deals both with creating a believable world while also working on the stuff that is needed to create a story...

There are alway sgoing to be certaint hings wrong with a town created in a game like this, because it's simply not feasible to model a complete economy, culture and whatnot of a large area like that and still have a social life. As long as a DM can give me some basic reason as to why a town is there or why it is the way it is, I am satisfied even if it has some consequences that are strange if you think about it for long...


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## Irda Ranger (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> In my mind, people should spend far more energy actually worrying about stuff that matters at the table



Agreed.  Why don't you stop worrying about what some of us consider fun, or at least an interesting discussion.




			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> Obviously I'm in the minority here.



Not really. Plenty of people accuse others of wrongbadfun.




			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> What really makes me shake my head is this presumption that if you aren't spending all this time and energy on "who in the government handles routine commerce & public projects", your game is nothing but mindless hack fests with no depth.



What presumptions?  Play however you want; no skin off my back. I doubt Andor cares either.  And even if we did think that, why would you care what someone on the internet thinks?




			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> The incredible arrogance I see whenever this comes up just astonishes me.



I think you find arrogance because you're looking for it, not so much because it's there.  It's remarkably hard to judge the emotional content of writing alone without the inflection of a voice or expression to give it context, which means that the reader's predisposition in usually determinative.  Can you guess my mood based on this post?

[sblock]Extremely calm. Pulse about 75, I'd say. Mildly shocked by Hussar's energy about how "some people" are judging him, but mostly just wishing he could have posted "Eh, it's good enough for my purposes, so I'm cool with it" and left it at that.[/sblock]




			
				Hussar said:
			
		

> See, if you want to spend all that time doing all that background work, more power to you.  Go right ahead.  But, don't presume that my game is any less rewarding or deep just because I choose to focus on a different kind of the campaign rather than, what I consider to be trivia.



(_orange text and strike-through were my changes_)

Just so there can be no misunderstandings, I don't.


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## Irda Ranger (May 27, 2008)

DeusExMachina said:
			
		

> While it's fun to create worlds, I always try to keep it useful. Whether a farm town has 60% farmers or 65% farmers is a totally useless difference to me as DM and also to my players.
> However, a 500 man mining town in the middle of the mountains with no fertile farm land around (my starting campaign) needs some way of getting food, because it's obvious that they have no regular food supply. So I invented an edible mushroom that gets farmed in several of the caves creating by mining, which forms the basis of their diet, which is supplemented by hunting and regular caravans with food supplies.
> Now we have new locations (the caves with food), new NPC's (the hunters and food merchants) and possible storylines (what happens when the food supply gets cut off somehow?). That imo is effective worldbuilding that deals both with creating a believable world while also working on the stuff that is needed to create a story...
> 
> There are alway sgoing to be certaint hings wrong with a town created in a game like this, because it's simply not feasible to model a complete economy, culture and whatnot of a large area like that and still have a social life. As long as a DM can give me some basic reason as to why a town is there or why it is the way it is, I am satisfied even if it has some consequences that are strange if you think about it for long...



This is a very good post.  The only thing I would change would be to end the first sentence of the second paragraph immediately after "whatnot."  It's not feasible to model all that period - even if you don't have a social life.  

But DeusExMachina's methods and means are how I approach this as well: just some back of the envelope stuff to pass a smell test.  It helps player immersion if the world feels like a larger, more complex place than they're really aware of at any given moment, and it also gives me tons of plot hooks and quest ideas.  After all, not every quest should be "Retrieve the Artifact" or "Rescue the Princess" - you've got to mix things up to keep them fresh, and a world with a little thought put into it is a great source of fresh ideas.

Here's a quest hook for DeusExMachina's mining town: the town of Boulder Mines relies on water from a mountain stream, not only for drinking but also for irrigating the mushroom caves.  But recently the water has stopped!  The PCs need to travel upstream into the mountains to discover the cause of the stream's disappearance.  There is water in the cisterns but if the PCs don't get the water flowing again within two weeks the mushroom crop will be lost and the town impoverished.  If the stream doesn't start flowing by the end of the month the town will have to be abandoned!

Naturally this can lead to a simple cave-clearing adventure (because some Duergar diverted the stream to underground forges), but knowing a little bit about the world makes a believable hook with some good time pressure.


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## med stud (May 27, 2008)

I want population numbers and I want some kind of logical consistency in a pre-gen town. To me, figuring that stuff out is boring so it's something I gladly pay for.

If the number of farmers are too small compared to medival Europe and the number of guards are too high, I can accept that as long as it's not one farmer supplying 1300 town dwellers. They may have more resistant crops than medieval Europe or the people withing the city walls may grow some food of their own. The guards may be a temporary thing or it can be that they are not full time guards; most likely they have a patch of land close to the town where they grow their own food. The town has 60 men and women that are capable at handling weapons, that's about it. Not too unreasonable considering the lack of a nearby king with mounted knights.

The walls may be too large, but again the town was bigger before. The walls can also be from an older civilization. The lack of a guard tower at the road approaching the village can be because it's razed. There is most likely an observation post there.

Fallcrest is maybe illogical but it's not outrageously illogical. A lot of the stranger stuff can also be explained with a minimum effort (like above).

---

I guess this puts me somewhere between Andor and Hussar


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## Kwalish Kid (May 27, 2008)

Irda Ranger said:
			
		

> I think you find arrogance because you're looking for it, not so much because it's there.  It's remarkably hard to judge the emotional content of writing alone without the inflection of a voice or expression to give it context, which means that the reader's predisposition in usually determinative.



Arrogance is not part of emotional state, it's part of attitude. even calm people can be and can come off as arrogant.

Indeed, it could be argued that many who are the most calm are the most arrogant.

So, please, keep it substantial.


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## Hussar (May 27, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Irda Ranger
> I think you find arrogance because you're looking for it, not so much because it's there. It's remarkably hard to judge the emotional content of writing alone without the inflection of a voice or expression to give it context, which means that the reader's predisposition in usually determinative.




Y'know what?  I took a deep breath and reread the thread.  I thinks I'm over reacting just a smidgeon.   Sorry, this is a horse I've been flogging for a while now and it hit me the wrong way.  ((Wow, way to mangle a metaphor))

I'll be backing out now.


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## Irda Ranger (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> Sorry, this is a horse I've been flogging for a while now and it hit me the wrong way.



Over-excitement on the internet?? It's a horse bites man kind of story.


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## drjones (May 27, 2008)

The town described makes very little sense politically, economically, sociologically etc. etc. Fortunately it doesn't have to because it is not real.  

How many refugees were at Helms Deep?  Lots.  How long would their supplies last?  Long enough for the plot to play out.  What speed did they travel when they evacuated?  Kinda slow but fast enough for the plot to play out.  How much did any of this matter to the protagonists?  Zilch.


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## Spatula (May 27, 2008)

Hussar said:
			
		

> You're probably right.  The reason being the apoplectic nerd frenzy that would result if they didn't include it.  The fact that 99% of it will never see the light of day will not stop people from insisting that IT MUST BE THERE.



Yes, because if there's one thing that 4e shows, WotC lives in daily fear of provoking nerd frenzies.

...or it could be that 4e isn't all that different from previous editions and is just as friendly to world builders.  It seems that most of the assumptions that have been aired here in the past have turned out to be unfounded (world builder: It's not in the preview, it must not exist! anti-world builder: it does not exist! 4e hates your playstyle!).  There being actual rules for how vampires create new vampires in the MM, for example, which was one of the big discussions.  Or a "starter town" that addresses mundane matters of day-to-day life in the town.


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## Hussar (May 28, 2008)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Yes, because if there's one thing that 4e shows, WotC lives in daily fear of provoking nerd frenzies.
> 
> ...or it could be that 4e isn't all that different from previous editions and is just as friendly to world builders.  It seems that most of the assumptions that have been aired here in the past have turned out to be unfounded (world builder: It's not in the preview, it must not exist! anti-world builder: it does not exist! 4e hates your playstyle!).  There being actual rules for how vampires create new vampires in the MM, for example, which was one of the big discussions.  Or a "starter town" that addresses mundane matters of day-to-day life in the town.




Umm, isn't the whole point of the last several pages of this thread that the starter town doesn't address the mundane matters of day-to-day life?  The fact that the town as drjones points out, doesn't really make any economic, political or social sense pretty much says that none of the things you're claiming exist, actually exist.

Irda Ranger-


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