# Doctor Who 2007: Utopia (Major Spoilers)



## delericho (Jun 16, 2007)

Jack's Back!

The TARDIS picks up Jack Harkness, and then it's off to the end of the universe for our heroes. The last of the humans are building a rocket to get to 'Utopia', under the guidance of a brilliant but lonely Professor.

The good:

Character interplay was a lot of fun


Spoiler



The Face of Boe's last words are explained


Derek Jacobi is excellent, of course
Edit, I forgot: at least one Scotsman makes it to the end of the universe. Huzzah!
The end. How are they possibly going to get out of that one?

The bad:

Martha's really stupid at a key moment.

Answered questions:



Spoiler



How can the Doctor both be the last of the Time Lords and at the same time "not alone"?


What, exactly, has happened to Jack?
Oh, and in case we were wondering, what's that hand that Torchwood have?

Unanswered questions:



Spoiler



How did the Master get out of the TARDIS (after being Eric Roberts in the Paul McGann movie)?
How did the Master get a Chameleon Arch?
How did the Master get to the end of the universe?
How did the Master get another regeneration? Have they discarded the notion that Time Lords have a very finite number of regenerations?
Is Utopia Gallifrey?



And, again, how do they get out of this one?


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## Lorgrom (Jun 16, 2007)

Can't wait to see this online in the next couple of days, hehehe. gotta love the net.


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## JRR_Talking (Jun 16, 2007)

oopsie

and

ooeer

nuff said


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## Mark Hope (Jun 16, 2007)

Man oh man, that was fun .

Even though at least one of the big reveals of the episode had been guessed beforehand, they still managed to make it extremely thrilling.  When Derek Jacobi hissed 



Spoiler



I am the Master


, I knew what he was going to say and it gave me goosebumps nevertheless.  That fellow can act.  Just a bit.

And I just loved Simm's line 



Spoiler



about having a nice long chat and revealing all his plans...  Classic.  At last we have an evil mastermind who knows his stuff


.

I did not see the significance of 



Spoiler



Yana's name


 until it was revealed.  I had a feeling that there was some wordplay there, but didn't catch on.  So when that one came clear I literally slapped my forehead.  Coolness.

I'd second all of the unanswered questions above.  I really hope that they address those in the next couple of episodes.  Although, I thought that I saw 



Spoiler



the Doctor's hand glowing and then looking all drained and decrepit when the Master regenerated, so maybe he stole some of its energy to jump start his own regeneration?


.  Not sure about that - seems a bit of a lame idea.

Awesome to see a 



Spoiler



Gallifrey stopwatch


 put in another appearance.  Possibly one of the coolest ideas of the episode and a great way to tie threads together.

Roll on the Sound of Drums!


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## Elemental (Jun 17, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Jack's Back!
> And, again, how do they get out of this one?




Well, they do have the 



Spoiler



battery of Tardis-power that kept Jack alive through 200 years and getting shot in the head by two members of his own team, and possibly his defunct "spacehopper" device, so that's a good starting point. And possibly the Master's TARDIS, if he bought it with him, but just found the Doctor's more convenient.



Wild unsupported theory:


Spoiler



The Master's TARDIS was actually that spaceship, or part of it


.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 17, 2007)

Lorgrom said:
			
		

> Can't wait to see this online in the next couple of days, hehehe. gotta love the net.




It's online already if you know where to look.


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 17, 2007)

Man I can't wait for the next two episodes. I'm not nearly as invested in Dr Who as others. I was completely oblivious to it up till the new series. But I fully get the feeling druged up by these characters. 

Wow, just wow. 

I'm assuming all TARDIS's come with a Chamelon Arch allowing their Time Lords to hide.

I thought The Master was the "13th" and "last" regeneration of the Doctor gone mad? At least thats what i read. Maybe they've retconned it to make them two seprate timelords?


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 17, 2007)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I thought The Master was the "13th" and "last" regeneration of the Doctor gone mad? At least thats what i read. Maybe they've retconned it to make them two seprate timelords?




Nope. Not sure where that came from. The 13th regeneration was supposedly the Valeyard (opposing counsel during the 7th Doctor's trial). The Master and the Doctor have always been two separate people- they went to school together, IIRC. There was a suggestion that they were supposedly related somehow- brothers, I believe. I read a rumor that when the 7th Doctor and Kamelion "killed" the Master (Anthony Ainley) that his last words were supposedly "Doctor- can you do this to your own..." but that they got edited out. Could be apocryphal though.

In any event- awesome episode. So the Doctor was avoiding Jack- at least they cleared that up and gave some rationale behind it. Getting some closure to the Rose situation, which is cool. I think the Doctor needed Jack- the only other person who knew her like he did- to get that. 

(Aside- did anyone else think it would have been cool if they'd modified the opening credits to show Jack hanging onto the TARDIS as it spun through the wormholes?)

The Master is back. It is looking like the Face of Boe's last words were just a warning after all (though I'm still hopeful that there is some more meaning there- like the Master is just one of many Time Lords still out there. Suppose we'll find out in the next couple of episodes.)

I don't know. I like John Simm, and am really looking forward to the last episodes of the season, but frankly, I think Derek Jacobi did an amazing job, and I would love to have seen him remain the Master, and have John Simm play a different character. Jacobi did so much in such a short time frame.

It was kind of annoying how every time they showed the Futurekind infiltrator, they had to make a point of showing her teeth, as if we wouldn't know who she was. (Minor nitpick).

Utopia- I'm wondering if even in his artificially induced memory loss the Master didn't still somehow conspire to rid the world of humanity completely, as his possible last act. Cheeky bugger. 

Liked Jack's "fantastic" line. And am glad to see him back to being Jack, as opposed to the sometimes Jack/sometimes broody "Angelesque" guy he played on Torchwood. He really belongs more on a show like Doctor Who than he does on Torchwood.

Trailer for next week- Yay! U.N.I.T. gets mentioned! I wonder if that means they cleared up things with the UN, or if they'll only get mentioned as an acronym (and not as United Nations Intelligence Taskforce)

As for questions about who/what/when/where/why/how the Master survived and prospered, I suspect we won't get too many answers about that. It's been three seasons and we still know virtually nothing about the Time War, save that it was between the Time Lords and the Daleks, and that the Doctor believes himself to be the only survivor. I think we're likely to only get what we got here- that the Master turned himself human and hid himself at the end of the universe but was restored. That doesn't really bother me nearly as much as still not knowing more details about the war itself.

[EDIT- Just had an interesting thought. We know that the Master- as Mr. Saxon- has been manipulating events on Earth to rouse opposition to the Doctor (Martha's mom, for one, likely others). Could the Master have also traveled back in time to rouse other people against the Doctor? Could he have, for instance, have been a party to Queen Victoria's institution of Torchwood?]


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## horacethegrey (Jun 17, 2007)

WOOHOO! The Master of All is Back!  

First off though, some nitpicks. This episode wasn't all that impressive for me. It all felt like some big setup for that big plot twist at the end. I wasn't much convinced nor scared at the futurekind humans. They felt like rejects from the Road Warrior rather than the hideous evolution of humanity that they ought to be. Not much in the way of the plot, so all in all this episode felt as average as anything.

That is, until Sir Derek opens that watch....  

Actingwise I've no complaints. Aside from the continued excellence of Tennant and Freema, John Barrowman is always a pleasure to watch as Jack. Still the horned up omisexual rogue as always, and that conversation he and the Doctor had over his immortality and Rose's fate was a nice interlude. 

And what is there to say about Derek Jacobi, other than that he is brilliant?  He's always been one of my favorite actors (_Cadfael _ rules!), and he does a fine job of playing what is essetially two characters. First, the kindly Professor Yana, who for me isn't far off from how William Hartnell portrayed the First Doctor (perhaps as a twisted homage of sorts  ). Then of course, the Master. Funny how all that malevolence and evil doesn't come across as hammy in the hands of a superior talent like Sir Derek.  

And while I do agree that it's too bad that Sir Derek had to go so soon, his Master wouldn't have meshed well with Tennant's Doctor. Since the Master is the Doctor's arch nemesis and also his counterpoint, having him as an old man battling it out with a younger Doctor wouldn't be as cool. Look forward to see what John Simm can do with the role!  Bring on the Sound of Drums!


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## horacethegrey (Jun 17, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> The bad:
> 
> Martha's really stupid at a key moment.



In response to this, I don't think it was stupid of her. How was she to know that this Time Lord was the arch nemesis of her beloved Doctor? Martha likely had pretty good intentions when she pointed out the watch to him, perhaps to give some hope to the Doctor of one of his kind surviving.


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## delericho (Jun 17, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> In response to this, I don't think it was stupid of her. How was she to know that this Time Lord was the arch nemesis of her beloved Doctor?




She wasn't, of course. But she knows precisely _one_ Time Lord, and she also knew that the Doctor was a very different man as John Smith. So, when Professor Yana turned back, he could have been anyone.

So, when she noticed the watch, she should have made no mention of it, acted casual until the Doctor got back, and _then_ brought it up. Instead, she made a huge issue out of this watch, suggested that Yana really might want to open it up, then rushed off leaving an unknown Time Lord alone with their one and only time machine. That was really dumb, and really not what I'd come to expect from the character.

Of course, when I say "their one and only time machine", it has been mentioned up-thread that Jack is actually wearing a time machine "space hopper". It doesn't currently work, but I'll bet the Doctor has that fixed in short order, and they'll be off to merry old England in time for tea, biscuits, and to thwart Mr Saxon's master plan.



> Martha likely had pretty good intentions when she pointed out the watch to him, perhaps to give some hope to the Doctor of one of his kind surviving.




I have no doubt she had the very best of intentions. I just don't think her actions were at all wise. In fact, I literally shouted at the screen "don't leave him alone there!" when she rushed off.


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## Morrus (Jun 17, 2007)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I thought The Master was the "13th" and "last" regeneration of the Doctor gone mad? At least thats what i read. Maybe they've retconned it to make them two seprate timelords?




Whatever you read, it's wrong.  The Master and The Doctor are two separate Time Lorda and are arch-enemies.


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## Morrus (Jun 17, 2007)

http://www.votesaxon.org.uk/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/...checkedMedia=asx&subtitles=hide&alreadySeen=1

http://www.votesaxon.co.uk/index.shtml


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## Felon (Jun 17, 2007)

I don't know that you'll get questions about the master's regeneration limit being extended or what happened with Eric Roberts and the Eye of Gallafrey, but I know one thing: we don't need them answered. Villains survive. I stopped needing to hear how Dr. Doom or the Red Skull survived their latest demise a long time ago. Whenever the hero says "at long the world is safe from the thread of ____", don't buy it. Evil will find a way.

Gotta say, the episode was a dud for a good while there. The Futurekind looked like rejects from a 1980's video (q.v. Billy Idol's "Dancing with Myself"). You have one harmless insect-lady that they do a decent job on, then a bunch of guys with grease paint and dollar-store vampire teeth? The Doctor just needs to get over Jack whipping out his gun and busting a few caps so he can close that damn door.  

John Simms seems he's doing the Master by way of Caesar Romero's Joker. Since he looks pretty damn unmenacing (compared to the classic Masters) I guess that's the only way to go.


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## Felon (Jun 17, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> She wasn't, of course. But she knows precisely _one_ Time Lord, and she also knew that the Doctor was a very different man as John Smith. So, when Professor Yana turned back, he could have been anyone.
> 
> So, when she noticed the watch, she should have made no mention of it, acted casual until the Doctor got back, and _then_ brought it up. Instead, she made a huge issue out of this watch, suggested that Yana really might want to open it up, then rushed off leaving an unknown Time Lord alone with their one and only time machine. That was really dumb, and really not what I'd come to expect from the character.



She didn't make a huge issue about the watch. Remember, the characters in the show don't actually hear the dramatic swelling of the background music.   

She asked enough questions to confirm her suspicions, then told the Professor it was nothing and that everything was fine. Sure, she wasn't that successful at pretending to be nonchalant, and she probably would have been better off doing what you suggest, but not doing the perfect thing when confronted with a major shock hardly makes one "really dumb". Expecially when she _likes_ the one Time Lord she knows and has no reason to think this shouldn't be a wondrous event rather than an omenous one.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 17, 2007)

Especially since she knew that the Time Lords died fighting the Daleks, and she saw what kind of "people" the Daleks were. In her eyes, there is no reason to belief that the Time Lords are anything but benevolent.

While the "Mr. Saxon thanks you" talks in some of the episodes might have been pretty obvious, the fact that other aspects of the series became important to this plot was a decent surprise.

Especially since I didn't expect the predicted return of the Master in this episode after I watched the beginning. (Though, at a time I considered a possibility that Yarn might be an aged Jack who lost most of his memories over the millenia of his existence, or a incarnation of the Doctor himself...)


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 17, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> In response to this, I don't think it was stupid of her. How was she to know that this Time Lord was the arch nemesis of her beloved Doctor? Martha likely had pretty good intentions when she pointed out the watch to him, perhaps to give some hope to the Doctor of one of his kind surviving.




I'd add to that that, after seeing what the Doctor went through when it came time for him to return to his Time Lord status, she might have been hesitant to make that choice for the Professor, or just generally unsure how to proceed.


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## sniffles (Jun 18, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> How did the Master get another regeneration? Have they discarded the notion that Time Lords have a very finite number of regenerations?



My Doctor Who fan-geekishness forces me to respond to this one:    



Spoiler



The Master didn't get another regeneration. He already ran out of regenerations well before he got to this point. If you'll recall, the Anthony Ainley version of the Master stole the body of Nyssa's father to perpetuate his existence. He also stole Eric Roberts' character's body after his "essence" was given to the Doctor for disposal. And he fell into the Eye of Harmony in the Doctor's TARDIS at the conclusion of the tv-movie. So the question isn't "How did he get another regeneration?" but "How did he get out of the Eye of Harmony?" I think the Eye of Harmony would explain how he's still alive. After all, it was the power of the Eye that let Rose save everyone in The Parting of the Ways, and that same power apparently made Captain Jack immortal.



Okay, enough of the nitpicking.   

I really enjoyed this episode. It was great to see some issues resolved and new ones raised. The conclusion left me panting for more. And Derek Jacobi on Doctor Who - how awesome is that?!!


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 18, 2007)

One thing that occurred to me- given the Master's penchant for clinging desperately to life in spite of all odds, and his demonstrated ability to take on the bodies of others in the past- shouldn't Jack "the Immortal" Harkness be looking mighty appealing to him now?


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## horacethegrey (Jun 18, 2007)

Cthulhudrew said:
			
		

> One thing that occurred to me- given the Master's penchant for clinging desperately to life in spite of all odds, and his demonstrated ability to take on the bodies of others in the past- s*houldn't Jack "the Immortal" Harkness be looking mighty appealing to him now?*



 Oh dear god... Don't give RTD any ideas! 

But then... wouldn't that be just the most evil thing? Think of it, at Season 3's end the Master is defeated but transfers his essence to Jack's immortal body. He then returns to Torchwood and proceeds to f**k around with the team to further his own ends, which in turn leads to the next confrontation with the Doctor in Season 4. 

Yep. Definitely too sick, even for RTD.


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## sniffles (Jun 19, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Oh dear god... Don't give RTD any ideas!
> 
> But then... wouldn't that be just the most evil thing? Think of it, at Season 3's end the Master is defeated but transfers his essence to Jack's immortal body. He then returns to Torchwood and proceeds to f**k around with the team to further his own ends, which in turn leads to the next confrontation with the Doctor in Season 4.
> 
> Yep. Definitely too sick, even for RTD.



I should certainly hope so!!


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 19, 2007)

it was Ok, a big drop off from Blink but that is to be expected.  I do hope the Master isn't all "Tennenty" as he appeared to be after turning young.  Seemed like the actor was doing a DT impression there.  

Martha needs to learn to keep her trap shut.  The Doc really should tell her not to go around telling everyone they have a time machine, that can only lead to trouble. 

I have high hopes for the last two but RTD's writing is the weakest part of the new show so we will see how it plays out.  Moffat should write the whole damn thing, he's fantastic!


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## delericho (Jun 20, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I have high hopes for the last two but RTD's writing is the weakest part of the new show




Yeah, I found that very noticable back in the 'first' season, where every episode he didn't write was excellent, while the ones he did write were okay.

Watching "Doctor Who Confidential", it's obvious that he has a real passion for the material, and I _do_ mostly like the direction he's taken the show. But perhaps his strength is as showrunner, and he should delegate the writing to others?


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## delericho (Jun 20, 2007)

sniffles said:
			
		

> My Doctor Who fan-geekishness forces me to respond to this one:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I actually asked that latter question (in a slightly different form) in my first post. But, the first question was referring to 



Spoiler



his regeneration from Derek Jacobi to John Simm


, so I think it is appropriate. 

Actually, I think perhaps it would be no bad thing if they quietly dropped that bit of lore from the canon, as it does rather limit the duration of the show somewhat, especially if actors are going to come and go. Although if they played it right, they could get a _really_ awesome story-arc out of it, so I guess they could go either way...


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 20, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Yeah, I found that very noticable back in the 'first' season, where every episode he didn't write was excellent, while the ones he did write were okay.
> 
> Watching "Doctor Who Confidential", it's obvious that he has a real passion for the material, and I _do_ mostly like the direction he's taken the show. But perhaps his strength is as showrunner, and he should delegate the writing to others?




I don't like all of his ideas on the new show, though this series is a step up from the Rose seasons since we don't have constant interaction with Martha's family as we had with Rose's family.  Some people liked that, I hated it.  I like more adventures in space as well as just going through time on Earth.  Overall the show is fun but the less he writes the better, I find his ideas like Gridlock to be pretty weak.

Moffat on the other hand has hit a grand slam with every episode he has written, Empty Child/Doctor Dances, Girl in the Fireplace, & Blink all stand with the best Who ever.  More Moffat next year!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 20, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> it was Ok, a big drop off from Blink but that is to be expected.  I do hope the Master isn't all "Tennenty" as he appeared to be after turning young.  Seemed like the actor was doing a DT impression there.



Well, maybe using the doctors hand somehow for regeneration made him also pick up some of his personality traits.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 20, 2007)

Some ideas:

(1)  Regarding the Chameleon Arch, this is likely something that every TARDIS has, allowing the Time Lord(s) operating it to conduct field observations without interfering in the local populace.  And, I bet, the Chameleon Arch can do a lot more than "human" (in _Human Nature_ the Doctor says he set it to Human).

(2)  Regarding the Master surviving entering the Eye of Harmony, I theorize that it wasn't the Master at all but a Dalek construct that they wanted on Gallifrey.  The idea that the Daleks were trying to make a Time Lord duplicate to send to Gallifrey (to assassinate the High Council) goes back to the 5th Doctor.  That seems far more plausible to me than the Daleks _actually_ putting the Master on trial, honoring his last request, and not trying to exterminate the Doctor when he came to pick up the remains.  Also, Dalek duplicates have had the original personality exert control over the Dalek conditioning before, so that would make sense with the Master duplicate as well.

(3)  Ever since _The Deadly Assassin_, the Master has been trying to steal the Doctor's body to claim his remaining regenerations.  It is quite possible that, with the Doctor's escape, he stole the body of another Time Lord.  

(4)  It is also possible that, since the Time Lords claimed to be able to give the Master another regeneration cycle in _The Five Doctors_ that they gave _every_ Time Lord another 12 regenerations to aid in the Time War (much easier if your dead get up and keep fighting) and that the Master (and the Doctor) benefited from that.

(5)  The Valeyard was said to be the sum of all the Doctor's evil between his 12th and final incarnation.  That doesn't make him necessarily an incarnation of the Doctor.  In _Trial of a Time Lord_ we see that beings can enter and exit the Matrix.  I posit that the Valeyard was a Matrix construct of the Doctor's _potential_ evil.

(6)  I also posit that the Melanie Bush that left with the 6th Doctor was a Matrix construct of possible future events.

(7)  Was Trantis (from _The Daleks' Masterplan_ a Futurekind?

I think about this stuff _way_ too much!


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## horacethegrey (Jun 21, 2007)

On the subject of Russel T. Davies: I don't think he's all that bad. I certainly don't think that all the episodes he's written were all crap. *Rose * was a great reintroduction to _Doctor Who_, and *End of the World * was a decent follow up. It's when he starts conceptualising is when his writing starts to falter. *The Long Game* and *New Earth* are examples of this, and especially *Utopia * (end of the Universe and they still use trucks and machine guns? Yeah right  ). Still the season enders he's writen haven't been bad (admit it, *Army of Ghosts * and *Doomsday * were awesome), so maybe he'll wow us yet again.


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## delericho (Jun 21, 2007)

horacethegrey said:
			
		

> Still the season enders he's writen haven't been bad (admit it, *Army of Ghosts * and *Doomsday * were awesome), so maybe he'll wow us yet again.




Actually, I haven't been particularly impressed with anything featuring the new Cybermen (except that one Torchwood episode, which had some dumb costuming choices, but was otherwise pretty solid). Watching the Daleks wipe them out was fun for a while, but didn't leave me thinking of them as much of a threat.

However, I did feel that "Bad Wolf" and "Parting of the Ways" were awesome from start to finish.

All that said, the only episode of the new series I would actually label 'bad' is "Fear Her". At worst, they've been 'okay'.

(Speaking of being unimpressed with the new Cybermen: I've started to worry that the Daleks and Cybermen, and other recurring villains, are losing their menace. Looked at objectively, we _know_ they're going to be beaten back every time they appear, we _know_ they're not going to kill the Doctor or companion, and so they start to look rather toothless. I'm starting to think the next time we see Dalek Kaan he needs to score an emphatic victory, probably re-establishing the Dalek species and leaving as a massive and credible threat. At least, that's what I'd do at this point.)


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## horacethegrey (Jun 21, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Actually, I haven't been particularly impressed with anything featuring the new Cybermen (except that one Torchwood episode, which had some dumb costuming choices, but was otherwise pretty solid). Watching the Daleks wipe them out was fun for a while, but didn't leave me thinking of them as much of a threat.



I thought the new Cybermen were quite all right, and hope to see them again soon. That said, I wouldn't mind a return of the original Mondas Cybermen, if only to show how much more vicious and dangerous they've become since their absence. 



			
				delericho said:
			
		

> However, I did feel that "Bad Wolf" and "Parting of the Ways" were awesome from start to finish.



Okay, I'll admit that those two episodes were much better, in that clearly showed how frightening the Daleks can be.  



			
				delericho said:
			
		

> (Speaking of being unimpressed with the new Cybermen: I've started to worry that the Daleks and Cybermen, and other recurring villains, are losing their menace. Looked at objectively, we know they're going to be beaten back every time they appear, we know they're not going to kill the Doctor or companion, and so they start to look rather toothless. I'm starting to think the next time we see Dalek Kaan he needs to score an emphatic victory, probably re-establishing the Dalek species and leaving as a massive and credible threat. At least, that's what I'd do at this point.)



I certainly didn't think the Daleks were in any way *toothless *at the end of Season 1. They practically killed everyone on Satellite 9 just before they were about to exterminate the Doctor. He only got off because Rose reappeared in God Mode and wiped them out   (something that turned me off at first, but gradually learned to accept and appreciate). Still, I do agree that Dalek Caan needs to do something quite dastardly in order to reestablish the Daleks as a credible threat.


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## Richards (Jun 21, 2007)

Well, just to be pedantic, technically the Daleks and Cybermen _are_ toothless....  

Johnathan


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 21, 2007)

The only good thing about the season ender for season 1 was...well it really sucked.  The whole "Bad Wolf" thing was moronic IMO. 

Season 2 finale was carried by the great Black Dalek and his crew and the fact that Rose was shot into another dimension to hopefully never return.  Watching the current series I am just delighted at how much more I like Martha.  A much stronger character than Rose.  I'd have to say that this season is far better than the first two. 

I don't care for the new Cybermen or the 2 parters where they were introduced. RTD's stuff isn't always bad, The End of the World was fine, and Tooth and Claw was decent.  But the really bad shows IMO were his, Gridlock, Love and Monsters, Aliens of London/WWIII, Boomtown, & Gridlock.  Did I mention Gridlock?

I'm psyched that Moffat is writing 2 shows next series.  Should be a blast.  But RTD is writing 4 so that kind of balances things out.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 21, 2007)

BrooklynKnight said:
			
		

> I thought The Master was the "13th" and "last" regeneration of the Doctor gone mad?




I think there was some confusion about the Master, the Valeyard and the Doctor. The Master and the Doctor are seperate individuals who are moral and ethical opposites, arch-enimies in fact, opposing each other across all of time and space. Much like Morrus and Pirate Cat. However, The Valeyard and the Doctor are possibly different incarnation of the same individual, the one from the future mad with grief, power and desperation pitting itself againast its own past. Much like Eric Noah and Morrus.

(Grumpy strokes his pointy little beard and cackles)


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## BrooklynKnight (Jun 21, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> I think there was some confusion about the Master, the Valeyard and the Doctor. The Master and the Doctor are seperate individuals who are moral and ethical opposites, arch-enimies in fact, opposing each other across all of time and space. Much like Morrus and Pirate Cat. However, The Valeyard and the Doctor are possibly different incarnation of the same individual, the one from the future mad with grief, power and desperation pitting itself againast its own past. Much like Eric Noah and Morrus.
> 
> (Grumpy strokes his pointy little beard and cackles)





Hrm. You know...they HAVE been making the new Doctor angrier and angrier haven't they.


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## Felon (Jun 22, 2007)

delericho said:
			
		

> Actually, I think perhaps it would be no bad thing if they quietly dropped that bit of lore from the canon, as it does rather limit the duration of the show somewhat, especially if actors are going to come and go. Although if they played it right, they could get a _really_ awesome story-arc out of it, so I guess they could go either way...



They don't even have to drop it. It just has to be one of those countless things that fans obsess over for decades and then a writer effortlessly renders all the minutae-mongering moot with one throwaway line that explains that either A) things have changed, or B) the original concept was never quite properly explained. 

I mean, at some point, one would think the fans would realize that they could come up with their own explanations for these supposed paradoxes. Dozens of them. Doctor Who is, after all, a fantasy show with the thinnest trappings of being science fiction. Is there anyone out there who really thinks the properties of the sonic screwdriver are actually based on sound waves? It's a flippin' magic wand.


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## Flexor the Mighty! (Jun 22, 2007)

I think they need to ease up on the sonic screwdriver myself.  It's become a do everything device, which is why it was written out of the show in the 5th Doctor's tenure.  The Doctor waving it around like a weapon is lame IMO.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 22, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I think they need to ease up on the sonic screwdriver myself.  It's become a do everything device, which is why it was written out of the show in the 5th Doctor's tenure.  The Doctor waving it around like a weapon is lame IMO.




I agree.  I was so happy when they burned it out in _Smith & Jones_ and so sad when he just got a new one.


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## delericho (Jun 22, 2007)

Flexor the Mighty! said:
			
		

> I think they need to ease up on the sonic screwdriver myself.




Agreed. While the Doctor absolutely should have access to some ultra-tech, and there is a place for a device that messes with other electronics, it's probably a case where less is more.


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## The Grumpy Celt (Jun 22, 2007)

The best question I have but not one I heard or seen is...

Where is the Masters own TARDIS?


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## Cthulhudrew (Jun 23, 2007)

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> Where is the Masters own TARDIS?




I want to say it was destroyed at one point, but I'm not sure. In any event, given that the Time Lords were supposedly all killed during the Time War, and that Gallifrey seemingly is no longer in existence, I'd say that all TARDIS' besides the Doctor's are likely trashed as well.

Presumably- until we learn otherwise- I'm going to assume the Master used his TARDIS' chameleon arch before the Time Lords recalled all the machines to fight in the Time War.

Good question, though.


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## delericho (Jun 23, 2007)

Back when they opened the rift near the end of Torchwood, the machinery they used looked an awful lot like the central column mechanism of a TARDIS. I did wonder at that point if it might actually be a TARDIS, and perhaps even the one belonging to the Master.

Or it could just look like that


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## Plane Sailing (Jun 29, 2007)

Finally got to see this show. It would have been nice to have seen it before I knew the ending, but basically I thought it was pretty great (Jacobi's acting was excellent), but there were a couple of things that bugged me:

1) Someone has already mentioned but... trucks and machine guns 100 trillion years into the future at the end of time? Just didn't fit at all. Would have been better to not have tried to set it such an unthinkable distance into the future

2) Presumably they follow the infinitely expanding universe theory rather than the big crunch theory... which is a shame, because big crunch has a lot more dramatic possibilities


The big question I was left with though -  what was 'Utopia' after all? Will that be revealed in Ep13?


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## sniffles (Jun 29, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> Finally got to see this show. It would have been nice to have seen it before I knew the ending, but basically I thought it was pretty great (Jacobi's acting was excellent), but there were a couple of things that bugged me:
> 
> 1) Someone has already mentioned but... trucks and machine guns 100 trillion years into the future at the end of time? Just didn't fit at all. Would have been better to not have tried to set it such an unthinkable distance into the future
> 
> ...



Well the Doctor does remark at one point that humans keep coming back to their original physical form, so perhaps human culture and technology keep restarting and evolving all over again. At least that's the impression they've given me based on the other episodes set in the distant future.


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## Morrus (Jun 30, 2007)

Just a quick request to the Americans - please take a moment to say thank you to me and the other UKers for the portion of the BBC license fee you're kindly "spending".

You're very welcome, and I'll think of you next month when the direct debit goes out.  I very much enjoy paying my part of your free entertainment.

Or  - more to the point - if your're pirating stuff, please do NOT advertise it on EN World.  This isn't the place for it - take it to CM if you must.


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## Fast Learner (Jun 30, 2007)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Just a quick request to the Americans - please take a moment to say thank you to me and the other UKers for the portion of the BBC license fee you're kindly "spending".
> 
> You're very welcome, and I'll think of you next month when the direct debit goes out.  I very much enjoy paying my part of your free entertainment.
> 
> Or  - more to the point - if your're pirating stuff, please do NOT advertise it on EN World.  This isn't the place for it - take it to CM if you must.



I assume you'll post something similar in the Sopranos thread, which I pay for with my HBO subscription. And the Battlestar Galactica thread. And all the other American shows that are either not shown in the UK, or are shown much later, but yet are somehow discussed by Brits here as they're broadcast in the US.


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## Volaran (Jun 30, 2007)

I feel somewhat envious.  The CBC is listed as a partner on the show credits, so my tax dollars _are_ helping to finance it, but we still don't get it first run.   I'm glad series 3 has finally started here in Canada through.  Series 2 took quite a bit longer.

Still, thanks to Morrus and the brits on the board.  Without them, there would be no Doctor Who at all.


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## Mark Hope (Jun 30, 2007)

Plane Sailing said:
			
		

> 2) Presumably they follow the infinitely expanding universe theory rather than the big crunch theory... which is a shame, because big crunch has a lot more dramatic possibilities...



Yes, but not as many as the big rip theory, which rocketh on toast


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## Morrus (Jun 30, 2007)

Fast Learner said:
			
		

> I assume you'll post something similar in the Sopranos thread, which I pay for with my HBO subscription. And the Battlestar Galactica thread. And all the other American shows that are either not shown in the UK, or are shown much later, but yet are somehow discussed by Brits here as they're broadcast in the US.




I haven't watch BSG since the first season, and haven't seen the end of the Sopranos.  And yes, you are correct, advertising the fact that you pirate stuff is a no-no on ENW wherever you're from.


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## Raven Crowking (Jun 30, 2007)

Morrus said:
			
		

> I haven't watch BSG since the first season, and haven't seen the end of the Sopranos.  And yes, you are correct, advertising the fact that you pirate stuff is a no-no on ENW wherever you're from.




You may not be aware of it, but there are places in North America where the BBC is available as a paid specialty channel, either via cable or satellite hook-up.  Here in Canada, that's the only way to get some of the American channels as well.

EDIT:  It should also be noted that, right now anyway, and to the best of my knowledge, Canadian copyright laws allow some forms of file sharing.  The point is that there shouldn't be an automatic assumption of criminal behaviour.

RC


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## Morrus (Jun 30, 2007)

Raven Crowking said:
			
		

> You may not be aware of it, but there are places in North America where the BBC is available as a paid specialty channel, either via cable or satellite hook-up.  Here in Canada, that's the only way to get some of the American channels as well.
> 
> EDIT:  It should also be noted that, right now anyway, and to the best of my knowledge, Canadian copyright laws allow some forms of file sharing.  The point is that there shouldn't be an automatic assumption of criminal behaviour.
> 
> RC




If you have issues with the moderation here, please take it up by email.  That is, and has always been, the rule.


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## Raven Crowking (Jul 1, 2007)

Morrus said:
			
		

> If you have issues with the moderation here, please take it up by email.  That is, and has always been, the rule.




Sorry....I thought that was a personal post.  I've gotten used to seeing moderation in red.

RC


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## Pseudonym (Jul 1, 2007)

Morrus said:
			
		

> If you have issues with the moderation here, please take it up by email.  That is, and has always been, the rule.




In matters of moderation I completely agree, but your initial post appeared as if you were just complaining to no-one in particular, rather than speaking as Moderator.


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## Felon (Jul 2, 2007)

Hmm. Russ sounds bitter. Wonder what that license costs the average citizen? Couple bucks?


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## Plane Sailing (Jul 2, 2007)

What makes you think this is a reasonable subject for conversation, after Morrus' comments earlier?

Thread closed.


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