# Gay men or women who play  D&D



## BeholderBurger (Aug 7, 2002)

HI,

Do any of you know any gay men or women playing D&D?

The reason I ask is I am doing a project for School about people in minorities with  passtimes considered "out there" , Like Black Mothers who are Hypnotists or Disabled Chinese kids who are trainspotters. It is an interesting subject regarding how people from minorities usually have to give up the ability to be different in an attempt to conform to societies stereotypes. Like Eddie Murphy in trading places. Our culture attempts to absorb people from minorities and to attempt to legitimise its core values. Surplus Capital Accumulation, Heirarchy worship, Educational elitism, Material necessity etc.etc.

So, if you know any Gay men or women who play D&D let me know about there stories. Im interested for my Essay.

Cheers


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## BeholderBurger (Aug 7, 2002)

Well cmon

Someone know one. Surely?


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## Chrysoula (Aug 7, 2002)

Um. How about bi people? I can think of 2 of those offhand...


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## Wormwood (Aug 7, 2002)

I know two gay gamers, but they aren't active in our group any more, so I don't know how much help I could be.



			
				BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *...Like Black Mothers who are Hypnotists or Disabled Chinese kids who are trainspotters...*




On a lighter note, I can't get that quote out of my head. Thank you.


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## Samnell (Aug 7, 2002)

BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *Do any of you know any gay men or women playing D&D?*




You're speaking to one. What do you want to know?

EDIT: If I'm not reasonably prompt about responding it might be because I've lost track of the thread. Happens to me a lot. Email's in my profile.


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## Valavien (Aug 7, 2002)

I used to play with a gay gamer and he used to be a part owner of the store!


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## BeholderBurger (Aug 7, 2002)

Cool,

All I wanna know is what I said earlier. Do you feel the need to abide by  a set of core values and "life-pathways" that reflect an attempt to conform for more acceptance by the wider community ,you know, as if your only allowed so much non conformity and you have to make up for it in other ways. Or do you feel really liberated to actually do anything you want. Im not concerned with your actual choices, rather I am concerned with whether you feel pressure to do it.

Thanks


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## Duncan Haldane (Aug 7, 2002)

Hi, 

There have been discussions in the past about gays who roleplay.  I also remember a topic last year about portraying homosexuals in a campaign.  The discussion was civilised, and many board members outed themselves at the time.

AFAIK Angelsboi is still Enworld's gay representative.  But he's not the only gay guy on these boards - I'm gay, so that's at least two ;-)

So, what is it you want to know?  I know quite a few non-hetrosexual gamers.  Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transexual.  Not all of them play D&D, but some do.  

Last year I was involved in a 5 player game of D&D where all players & the DM were gay men.  Before that I played in a Vampire Dark Ages game with all gay players - we had about 8 people play in that campaign over it's duration.

In my experience Roleplaying is more accepting of non-hetros than mainstream society.  I believe that's because roleplaying other characters allows you to see different lives and lifestyles, and thereby accept other lifestyles more.

Yahoogroups even has a couple of lists for "gaymers".

Duncan


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: Re: Gay men or women who play  D&D*



			
				Wormwood said:
			
		

> *On a lighter note, I can't get that quote out of my head. Thank you. *




Haha- is that like "If it wasn't for my horse, then I would never have gotten through that year of college?"

As for homosexual gamers- There was a bi- person in my college group, but my current is very blue-collar. If someone was gay, then I doubt they would ever bring it up. 

FD


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## Terry Wogan (Aug 7, 2002)

my dm is gay. his name is terence. yep, he is real gay


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## Nightfall (Aug 7, 2002)

Joseph Carriker of S&SS fame is Gay and he's both a writer and editor.  Plus he's a great guy all around.


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## Duncan Haldane (Aug 7, 2002)

BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *All I wanna know is what I said earlier. Do you feel the need to abide by  a set of core values and "life-pathways" that reflect an attempt to conform for more acceptance by the wider community ,you know, as if your only allowed so much non conformity and you have to make up for it in other ways. Or do you feel really liberated to actually do anything you want. Im not concerned with your actual choices, rather I am concerned with whether you feel pressure to do it.
> *




Hmm,  interesting question.

I started roleplaying when I was twelve.  I came out when I was 20.  So I'd been roleplaying for a long time before I accepted I was gay.  

I have always been an outsider.   I was constantly picked on at school (first because I was sick a lot, and then because of being a nerd).  Roleplaying was something I did with my nerd friends, which allowed me to escape some of my life.

Perhaps roleplaying was something which allowed me to ignore my sexuality for a longer time.  I'm not really sure.

I attend a lot of roleplaying conventions, and know a lot of people through that.  Almost all my friends are roleplayers.  I don't feel like I fitted in at work, and didn't socialise with workmates outside of the office.  I wasn't out at work, so my sexuality had nothing to do with it.

I think, all up, I'm just someone who doesn't fit a lot of social expectations.  Too much of a nerd, I guess.  My sexuality and my hobbies don't seem to have a lot to do with it.

Now I just need to find myself a nice gay nerd gamer 

hope this helps,

Duncan


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## alsih2o (Aug 7, 2002)

in college i knew a gay gamer who was very out about his sexuality, but dreadfully afraid someone would find out he was a gamer....but i think that had more to do with his possible conquests thinking it wasn't to sexy.

 he was very much the playboy, and hid his affection for math and gaming in order to up his odds with the kind of men he liked.

 strangely enuf, he was a theter major, but thought that gaming was nerdy, too many overlaps there for me to understand.

 odd again was the fact that he was a rather inspired actor, but a bit of a dullard at roleplaying


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## Samnell (Aug 7, 2002)

BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *Well all I wanna know is what I said earlier. Do you feel the need to choose to a set of core values and "life-pathways" that reflect an attempt to conform for more acceptance. You know, as if your only allowed so much non conformity and you have to make up for it in other ways. Or do you feel really liberated to actually do anything you want. Im not concerned with your actual choices, rather I ma concerned with whether you feel pressure to do it.
> *




Yes and no. I'm not the most forthcoming person in the world with my sexuality or my gaming, but all my friends know. There was an uncomfortable period where I wasn't sure if I should tell my gamer friends (who I've met relatively recently). I finally did so when after a near TPK I was the only person at the table with a PC who's gender matched my own.

They didn't care, fortunately, but I had wondered what kind of response I could expect. We're all strange in our own ways, but was my particular way going to cause problems?

It wasn't an overt thing. Nothing along the lines of "you must be straight or else" vibes coming at me. But even amongst gamers I was wondering how much leeway I was allowed.

In wider society I tend to keep quiet. I live in a relatively conservative small town and I'm not too hot on the idea of drawing attention to myself. I don't know what would happen if I did. I don't go out of my way to appear normal (I dress kind of preppy but that's just my tastes) but there's always a calculation. Is it going to be ok to tell this person? Could it cause me problems if I do?

I don't feel compelled that I must conform so much as I'm aware of possible negative consequences if I don't. Not drawing attention to it does allow me a sort of middle ground. If there's a gay scene here I'd be amazed and regardless I'm not active in it. I don't know of any gay advocacy groups active around here either that I might be inclined to participate in. I'm sort of under the radar.

I do have a certain advantage, though. You can't tell a person's gay by looking at them...unless they're wearing a t-shirt that advertises it or something.  You can't tell if a person's a gamer either. It's normally pretty easy to coexist.

Is that what you wanted?


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## BeholderBurger (Aug 7, 2002)

Thanks for everyone whos posting.

I cant keep up, my wrist is hurting.

My eSsay is gonna bE sooo good i might EveN Get An A grade

Woohoo.....

I want you all to go to bed tonight thinking about those poor disabled chinese kids forced to take up trainspotting.


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## BeholderBurger (Aug 7, 2002)

Bump...

Get lost fiend folio...Your days are numbered....


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## Angelsboi (Aug 7, 2002)

Im here finally.  I broke up with my boyfriend and ... anyways ... 

I game with a group and two of us are gay.  My ex used to game and so did my previous ex.  Well two ex's after tonights.  Does that make sense?

And yes, im still the official represenative, thanks to Teflon Billy.

Anymore questions?


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## mirzabah (Aug 7, 2002)

alsih2o said:
			
		

> *odd again was the fact that he was a rather inspired actor, but a bit of a dullard at roleplaying *



Not really that odd, roleplaying is not the same thing as acting. To quote an essay I once read, _a roleplayer on stage is a poor actor and an actor in a roleplaying game is a bloody nuisance._


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## Maxboy (Aug 7, 2002)

Well Being a young Gay gamer (and DM) can be quite difficult at times ,especially when you have a Homophobic person in the group of players. 

But Iam pretty lucky to have a supportive group mostly 


BTW: i wonder if Gay Rpgers play Gay characters in there games?

I have never played a gay character in DND



Cheers


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## Samnell (Aug 7, 2002)

> BTW: i wonder if Gay Rpgers play Gay characters in there games?




I do. When my PCs aren't explicitly asexual (which a few have been for background reasons) and don't have any compelling reason to be straight they're invariably gay. It hasn't yet made any more differance than a straight gamer's PCs being straight, though.

Except for one introduction to the group that took place in a brothel, it's never come up.


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## Piratecat (Aug 7, 2002)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *Im here finally.  I broke up with my boyfriend and ... anyways ...
> *




Sorry about that, guy. I hope things get better.

And thank you, everyone, for making this thread astonishingly flame- and problem-free. Reminds me why I like the people here so much.

Incidentally, I know... hmmm... at least 7 or 8 gay gamers just off the top of my head. I'd hesitate to speak for them, though.


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## SSS-Druid (Aug 7, 2002)

BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *All I wanna know is what I said earlier. Do you feel the need to abide by  a set of core values and "life-pathways" that reflect an attempt to conform for more acceptance by the wider community ,you know, as if your only allowed so much non conformity and you have to make up for it in other ways. Or do you feel really liberated to actually do anything you want. Im not concerned with your actual choices, rather I am concerned with whether you feel pressure to do it.*




Honestly, I'm not entirely sure what it is you're asking. 

Do I feel pressured to abide by a set of core values established by someone else (presumably some kind of social majority) in an effort to gain acceptance?

Not in the least. Frankly, my sexuality has very little to do with my gaming, save that I'm probably more likely to play a gay character. I think that there is an undercurrent among gamers that some gay men and women might interpret as homophobic, but is - at least in my opinion - simply xenophobic.

It's actually a pretty common phenomenon in other subcultures, as well - the gay one, and paganism, for instance. People in these cultures (which I also belong to), like gaming, have dealt with something of a stigma for their choices in society at large (though this stigma is wearing away for all three, it still exists).

When people have spent time being something of an "outsider" among "the norms," they tend to establish a pretty strong pack mentality when among "their own kind." Any divergence from the norm of that subculture tends to be met with bewilderment and furrowed brows in average cases, but open hostility in some. My personal opinion is that this occurs not because they actually hate that particular trait that seems at odds with the subculture, but because most such people have dealt with being the odd man out and are subconsciously reacting to that difference - only this time, they are making sure that they stay the "normal" one in that peer group.

It's actually not such a big thing in gaming anymore - in fact, it's almost more damning to be a gamer in queer culture than it is to be gay among gamers.

I guess that's why I've always thought of myself as a gamer that just happens to be gay, rather than vice versa.

Hope our input has helped.


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## Teflon Billy (Aug 7, 2002)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *...And yes, im still the official represenative, thanks to Teflon Billy...*




Oh yeah baby...I'm the Kingmaker!


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## Nightfall (Aug 7, 2002)

Btw Joseph, is there ANY truth to the release date for R&R2 being Sept 2? I was hoping for some time in August...


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 7, 2002)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *
> Now I just need to find myself a nice gay nerd gamer
> *




   What !  Even GAYmers have problems dating with gamers !!  hahaha... I wish I could find a nice normal girl that likes RPG. Seems that RPG isnt a good dating environment, no matter your orientation and Nerdish.


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## Angelsboi (Aug 7, 2002)

i agree with Duncan.  I need to find myself a nice boy who is a gaymer and pagan.


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## Darkness (Aug 7, 2002)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *... gaymer and pagan. *



Gaymer and pagayn?


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## hong (Aug 7, 2002)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *Gaymer and pagayn?  *




Those sound like winning entries in Forrester's Naemying'ur Khar'ectyr contest!


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## Horacio (Aug 7, 2002)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *i agree with Duncan.  I need to find myself a nice boy who is a gaymer and pagan. *




Not only gaymer but pagan AND nice... I wish you good luck, Angelsboy


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## Henry (Aug 7, 2002)

Angelsboi - I'm sorry to hear about (Brian, was it?) - I hope at least the parting was amiable.

SSS-Druid  - now that's a fascinating theory. It's also one I've espoused for years - that "higher goals are great, but don't forget that people are people." Any time you have a group of people who have some things in common, you always have peer pressure. Every human being is our peer - regardless of religion, sex, color, or size, we all want the same goals - love, security, and happiness. Everyone wants to be good, no one wants to be evil - it's just the definitions that change a lot.

But humankind, in addition to being a communal organism, has what I believe is a near-instinctive perogative to segregate into packs - it's the whole "urban tribes" idea, writ to a global scale. It's not a good thing, but for some reason, it always seems that unless there is a "them" (defined or undefined), there can not be an "us."

Rashak Mani - I wouldn't be certain it's totally bad. Isirga Eth told his story in another thread - According to him, Mr. Stud found his wife at the gaming table, hot and bothered by his DM'ing skills! 

Beholderburger - no, I'm not gay, but I had to respond to a few acquaintances I saw in the thread. Sorry.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 7, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *Everyone wants to be good, no one wants to be evil... *




What color is the sky in your world?


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 7, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *
> What color is the sky in your world? *




Salutations,

I think Henry has a point to a degree-

If you witness people facing charges of bad behavior, then many will try to justify their behavior- I suspect it is mostly for their own attempt at keeping some self-respect.

But, I don't think that applies to this discussion. heh.

FD


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## seasong (Aug 7, 2002)

*BeholderBurger:*
I'm bi. My current group is mostly gay/lesbian with a token straight. I won't speak for them, just for me.

Or try to. Your questions confused me a bit .

I'm always conservative in terms of how much of myself I show to the world-at-large. Among close friends, I can be very demonstrative of affection, I allow my emotions to show, I freely talk about biographical details, I share my thoughts.

With the rest of the world, I provide enough of the above that I look like a complete picture, but it remains very shallow. On the other hand, I've always answered direct questions directly - if someone at work asked me what my orientation was, I'd feel no more pressure to lie than if they asked me what state I was born in.

For me, at least, it's a matter of privacy, rather than conformity.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 7, 2002)

SSS-Druid said:
			
		

> *
> I think that there is an undercurrent among gamers that some gay men and women might interpret as homophobic, but is - at least in my opinion - simply xenophobic.*




I don't know about any undercurrent- I do my best to stay out of my buddies/players personal lives.. and could care less what they do in their bedrooms. I could not even tell you if any of them are in any romantic relationship at all.

One of my players has made some derogatory comments towards homosexuals, but since we game under my roof-  I made it clear that is not appreciated at my table. The same way racist comments are not allowed at my table.

However- on the same token, I don't appreciate the suggestion that people who don't approve of homosexuality suffer from some type of mental illness in the form of an irrational fear of homosexuality.

I don't care for the consumption of alcohol and avoid situations where I will be confronted with people doing it. It is hardly an irrational fear (or any type of fear or phobia) of alcohol consumption.

Respectfully submitted
FD


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## Henry (Aug 7, 2002)

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> *What color is the sky in your world? *




Wulf, name one real individual who ever set out to do an act they considered evil. Even serial killers and tyrants are acting in what they consider to be their own best interests. The only time someone consciously sets out to do something they know is wrong is in highly emotional states, and the majority of those will cease to do those actions if they ever stop to think about them carefully.


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## EverSoar (Aug 7, 2002)

Well i'm a gay gamer for one

But the one thing i've noticed, i'll have no  qualms playing a female character.  Whereas my straight players would never play a female character.  I guess we are more comfortable with the fact thats its ok to "role' play female characters, that may fall in love with a male character.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 7, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *Wulf, name one real individual who ever set out to do an act they considered evil. *




Charles Manson.

Done.


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## am181d (Aug 7, 2002)

Henry said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Wulf, name one real individual who ever set out to do an act they considered evil. Even serial killers and tyrants are acting in what they consider to be their own best interests. The only time someone consciously sets out to do something they know is wrong is in highly emotional states, and the majority of those will cease to do those actions if they ever stop to think about them carefully. *




That's not true.  Two quick counter-examples:

1)  Store clerk sells cigarettes to minors.  He knows it's wrong, but checking IDs is a drag.

2)  Teenager shoplifts, not because he needs the shirt he steals, but because he enjoys transgressing.

Beyond those, I'm sure there are plenty of people (hired killers, etc.) who would have no problem admitting that what they do (whatever they do) is evil.


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## WizarDru (Aug 7, 2002)

One of my current players is gay, and I've had others in the past.  It's never been an issue either way.  Sexuality doesn't have a large bearing on the game per se, outside of some fairly basic inter-pc or pc-npc relations that are kept mostly to the side.  Is a gay player more likely to have a character who is gay?  Yes.  Does this tend to have a huge bearing on the game proper? No.

I have only lost one player to predjudices in the past twenty-two years, when he became 'born again'.  In that particular instance, the player merely stopped playing and left the group.  None of my players have ever felt (or at least never communicated to me) that they needed to conform to anything other than the printed rules.  If there is a noticable difference between a hetero gamer and a homosexual gamer, I've never noticed it.


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## WizarDru (Aug 7, 2002)

am181d said:
			
		

> *
> 
> That's not true.  Two quick counter-examples:
> 
> ...




I think you're missing Henry's point.  They _don't_ think it's evil.  Unethical or immoral, yes, but not evil.  Both of those examples fall under the "it's not really hurting anyone" category.

A good example is that of Londo Mollari on Babylon5.  The architect of the murder of millions...all in the name of Nationalism and pride.  He didn't see himself as evil, but his victims sure did.  Most people will rework events in their mind so that what they do _isn't evil to them_.  Dehumanize an enemy, and you have no problem doing horrible, unspeakable things to him...because it serves a greater good, or because they have transgressed against your creed or code.  The difference between a holy crusade and the motivation of a serial killer can be uncomfortably close.  As for professional killers...many of them, I'd wager, work on a grander scheme of the shoplifter, mentally.  "Everybody dies.  Better them than me.  Someone's gonna do it.  I mostly kill other criminals, anyway. I'm just looking out for me and mine....etc."  

That said, I do believe there are intentionally evil folks.  Some are just plain amoral, and others just need to be put down like a dog.  I'm not terribly charitable when it comes to those who harm children, for example, whether they're insane or not.  But that's just me.


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## Pelosan Emperor (Aug 7, 2002)

Add one more gay gamer to the list.  I've been a gamer since I was 11, and gay forever (although it took me until I was 22 to come to terms with it).  

I'm lucky in many ways, but most of all because of my partner of 6 years.  He identifies as bisexual, and just last year finally decided to try gaming with our group.  (One more thing for us to share  )  He's even thinking about trying to GM sometime!

Of course, we are both out to our gaming group (6 straight guys)... I suppose we have to be since we play in our dining room 

The fact that my partner and I are gay really doesn't enter into our gaming experience.  In fact, our gaming group really doesn't touch on sex or romance.  Most of the gamers (me included) really wouldn't be comfortable with adding that aspect.

I don't see that my being gay has really had an effect on my gaming, except that I'm more willing to play female characters.  

Angelsboi -  I'm sorry to hear about your break-up.  My thoughts are with you.

PE


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## Henry (Aug 7, 2002)

Thanks to Furn and WizardDru for understanding the gist of my point. Even whacked-out Charles Manson thinks that the people who put him behind bars are the "bad guys."

Since the "good and evil" thing took us too far afield, I'll stop here. But if anyone here personally knows someone who prefers to do acts they consider wrong and evil, and is perfectly and intellectually happy with it, then THAT would be a subject for a fantastic thesis, Beholderburger. 

Peace out, all.


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## Benben (Aug 7, 2002)

*Okay I think I get it now.*



			
				BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *All I wanna know is what I said earlier. Do you feel the need to abide by  a set of core values and "life-pathways" that reflect an attempt to conform for more acceptance by the wider community ,you know, as if your only allowed so much non conformity and you have to make up for it in other ways. Or do you feel really liberated to actually do anything you want. Im not concerned with your actual choices, rather I am concerned with whether you feel pressure to do it.
> *




Let me see if I understand this.   That since I'm already a minorty, I can feel that I've reached my noncoformity limit and therefore need to toe the line?

What the alienation I've felt as a gamer and the alienation I've felt as a gay man are two different feelings.   I don't think emotions can really be added together like that.   I hate stupid drivers,  I hate brussel sprouts, and I hate scratches on my new car.  This doesn't mean I go throughout my day seething with hatred.   

I guess then I'm comfortable with both my status as a gaymer.

BeholderBurger, you might also want to check out:

The gaymer mailing list on yahoo:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gaymers

And for another minority gay comic book fans:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/gaycomics/start

Anything else you need?


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## MythicJustice (Aug 7, 2002)

BeholderBurger said:
			
		

> *Cool,
> 
> All I wanna know is what I said earlier. Do you feel the need to abide by  a set of core values and "life-pathways" that reflect an attempt to conform for more acceptance by the wider community ,you know, as if your only allowed so much non conformity and you have to make up for it in other ways. Or do you feel really liberated to actually do anything you want. Im not concerned with your actual choices, rather I am concerned with whether you feel pressure to do it.
> 
> Thanks *




I think you might be thinking too generally. I don't believe any gay person could answer your question just one way or the other. I know I can't. 

I really don't think about my life in terms of conforming or non-conforming behavior nor do I feel a need to conform or feel liberated by my sexual non-conformity, whatever that may mean.

Personally, I feel pressured in the same areas my co-workers and friends are. I work hard so I don't get fired for instance. 

I believe your question may be based on some preconceptions about Gay, Lesbian, Bi-sexual, and Transgenderal people that just isn't true.

Chad Justice


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## Tristissima (Aug 7, 2002)

Well, I'm queer, pagan, and utter gaming geek and completely, entirely, fantastically, obviously, blatantly, and annoyingly (to some ) out of all three closets (bedroom, broom, and gaming-book) to absolutely anyone and everyone (except my family :-( but that has nothing to do with this).  Everyone seems to be pretty accepting.  In fact, I've gotten more flack from the campus LGB (they say the Catholic university won't let them put transgendered in their name) group than I have my gamers.  Evidently, some of them don't believe I'm gay (well, I'm queer, not gay, but you get the idea).  But agian, I digress.  As for the point of the question, I (obviously) have never felt any need to conform.  Pressure, oh hell yeah, but never an internalized need.

On a side point, I have actually been creating for some months now (a littl off and on) a fantasy D&D world inspired in certain ways by both Lovecraft and elements of queer theory.  They seem to be a very good fit, actually.  Yet another digression.

On a second side point, why can't all these gaymer pagans live in California dammit!  Ya'll live either in Georgia, Massachusetts, Missouri, or Australia.  Or so it seems to me.  Consider this an open call for Californian gaymer pagans to let me know you exist!  But now I have digressed much too much and will therefore stop typing.


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## hong (Aug 7, 2002)

Tristissima said:
			
		

> * (they say the Catholic university won't let them put transgendered in their name) *




Transgenders: more than meets the eye!


Hong "sorry, it's late" Ooi


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## Mistwell (Aug 7, 2002)

While I do not roleplay with this group, I do play board games (Settlers, Cheap Ass, Robo Raley, Wizwar, pretty much anything) with quite an odd group.  It is composed of two bisexual polyamorous folks, sometimes their current lover, a transsexual lesbian, and myself. I'm the only straight person in the group, unless my girlfriend joins in as well for a game.

As for my D&D group - I have no idea.  One person is married, the rest are all seeing someone of the opposite sex, but that doesn't mean they are all straight.  I never thought to ask.


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## Benben (Aug 7, 2002)

Tristissima said:
			
		

> *(they say the Catholic university won't let them put transgendered in their name)
> 
> On a second side point, why can't all these gaymer pagans live in California dammit!  Ya'll live either in Georgia, Massachusetts, Missouri, or Australia.  Or so it seems to me.  Consider this an open call for Californian gaymer pagans to let me know you exist!  But now I have digressed much too much and will therefore stop typing. *




See if you can change the groups name to the Queer Student Association.  That covers everything unders the sun and you don't have to worry about getting your Gs, Bs, Ls, and Ts mixed up.  It's a club not a sandwich. 

The magic of message boards is that you find people just like yourself a thousands of miles away!


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## lord irial (Aug 7, 2002)

My boyfriend and I both play rpgs, and I know several gay and lesbian, bi and even a transexual who plays. Most of my group currently is straight, but I've actually DM'd for a year or so for an all-gay group, several years ago.


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## barsoomcore (Aug 7, 2002)

EverSoar said:
			
		

> *The one thing i've noticed, i'll have no  qualms playing a female character.  Whereas my straight players would never play a female character.  I guess we are more comfortable with the fact thats its ok to "role' play female characters, that may fall in love with a male character. *




Straight guy who's played a number of female characters. Having been a DM lo these many years, I'm very used to playing all sorts of characters, but playing female characters was never a problem for me or any of the straight guys I knew.

Okay, maybe not "any". But I know a number of straight guys who play female characters with complete authority.

I've played gay characters, too.

People are awfully hard to pin down, aren't they?


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## WizarDru (Aug 7, 2002)

barsoomcore said:
			
		

> *Okay, maybe not "any". But I know a number of straight guys who play female characters with complete authority.
> 
> I've played gay characters, too.
> 
> People are awfully hard to pin down, aren't they? *




This is true.  I've had several players who've played characters of another gender, and all of them, to my recollection, have been straight.  Go figure.


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## Dinkeldog (Aug 7, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Gay men or women who play  D&D*



			
				Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *As for homosexual gamers- There was a bi- person in my college group, but my current is very blue-collar. If someone was gay, then I doubt they would ever bring it up.
> 
> FD *




That pretty much sums it up for me (except the "very blue-collar" part).  I don't bring it up.  

Does that count as "pressure to conform"?  Probably, but mostly because I'm pretty lazy and generally a "bad gay man"; I don't want to have my entire life be a struggle for acceptance.  In this case, my acceptance comes easily because I have the same hobbies, and don't want to risk putting conflict into my recreation time.

A few years ago, I would have said otherwise.  Now I'm older and more tired--maybe wiser.


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## Dinkeldog (Aug 7, 2002)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *i agree with Duncan.  I need to find myself a nice boy who is a gaymer and pagan. *




I'm pretty happy with my current boyfriend.  He doesn't game, but he's got some other hobbies that I don't get.  Means we both get time to ourselves without hard feelings.


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## Trevalon Moonleirion (Aug 7, 2002)

_ originally posted by Pelosan Emperor_


> Of course, we are both out to our gaming group (6 straight guys)... I suppose we have to be since we play in our dining room




I hate to hijack the thread, but the quote sort of stuck out to me... why do you have to be out since you play in the dining room?  I might be just being a total theatre nerd, but that is one of the vignettes in a play I just did last fall called The Dining Room: a daughter struggles to tell her father that she's gay and he's rather surprised...

I'm probably just making connections that don't exist though... anyhow.

Don't know any gays that play D&D...though I'm sure some gay theatre people would probably enjoy D&D...


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## Mistwell (Aug 8, 2002)

> Wulf, name one real individual who ever set out to do an act they considered evil. Even serial killers and tyrants are acting in what they consider to be their own best interests. The only time someone consciously sets out to do something they know is wrong is in highly emotional states, and the majority of those will cease to do those actions if they ever stop to think about them carefully.




I think you are wrong.  There are people who do things they consider evil, for the sake of the feeling the get in doing evil.  

Drive-by shootings are often real acts of evil.  Sometimes they are done to get into a gang, which perhaps some gangbangers consider self-interest/self-protection only.  However, some do it after they get into the gang JUST for the thrill of killing a stranger.  When captured and asked, they often explain that they don't expect to live long anyway, and do it just because it's wrong to do, because they are doing something that everyone agrees is wrong, and trying to get away with it for the thrill they get from it.  They do not change their opinion once they are in a calm state of mind.  

There are unfortunately several of these people on death row right now in California (unfortuante that there are so many, not that they are on death row).  I think some serial killers fit this description as well (though I don't know if Manson fits that description or not).

Some people really are evil, in both mind and deed, rather than just deed.

[Edit: I had a boss once who might fit this bill as well, though I admit I might be a bit biased on that subject].


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 8, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *I think you are wrong. *




He's demonstrably wrong, his attempts at moral relativism notwithstanding. 

Just as there are still "good" people in the world with moral absolutes, there are still "evil" people in the world with the exact same moral absolutes, and still they choose evil because they enjoy evil.


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## Laslo Tremaine (Aug 8, 2002)

Man-o-man, but do I love this board! 

Another gay gamer here.  And I'm one of those who is out about being gay (to my firends, co-workers, family... everyone!)  and totally closeted about being a gamer (my gamer buddies know (obviously) as do a few family members.  No one at my workplace knows, nor do any of my gay friends or casual aquaintances.

As far as how far outside of the norm I go while gaming, that is a tough question.  Sexuality is not really handled in any of my gaming groups, or if it is, it is pretty abstracted.  My current character in my D&D group is pretty asexual, I'm not even sure what orientation he is...

Since I came out (roughly 10 years ago) about 90% of my characters have been gay men.  Before that, I would guess that maybe 60% were straight men and 40% women...

The story that I like to tell about my main group of gaming buddies (who are all straight) is when we played the introductory scenario for Feng Shui.  For those of you not familiar with it, the main goal is to defend a noodle shop, its owner and his lovely young daughter from evil forces.  The daughter is your basic engenue, and  obviously intended to be a focus of attention for the player characters.  When we reallized this we all kinda looked around at each other and then broke into uproarious laughter.  You see everyone at the table was playing a female character, except for me, and my character was gay!  We promptly ret-conned the pretty young daughter into a handsome young son and contunued playing without skipping a beat!


Oh, and Anglesboi, my condolences...


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## WizarDru (Aug 8, 2002)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> *and do it just because it's wrong to do, because they are doing something that everyone agrees is wrong, and trying to get away with it for the thrill they get from it.  They do not change their opinion once they are in a calm state of mind.  *




I'm not disagreeing with you, but I did want to point out that everyone doesn't agree that they're wrong: their peers validate them for it...that's half the reason they do it.

That said, this is fuel for a different thread, methinks.


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## Balsamic Dragon (Aug 8, 2002)

Several of the people I game with are gay.  Plus those who are bi, plus those who are poly,...  it's all good 

However, the weird thing is that I know about three times the number of gay gamers than I do non-white gamers!  Not sure why this is, it's something I've wondered about frequently.

Is this the case with other gaming groups?  Any idea why?

Balsamic Dragon


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## alsih2o (Aug 8, 2002)

i was chatting with a friend about this thread and it occured to me that i don't know whaether most of my group is gay or straight.....and i am having trouble caring...i do tend to pigeon hole people by gamer/nongamer, and their appreciation of art, and their job, but their genitals bore me to tears....


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## Agback (Aug 8, 2002)

Maxboy said:
			
		

> *BTW: i wonder if Gay Rpgers play Gay characters in there games?*




I don't know a lot of gay gamers well enough to have a decent sample of the kinds of characters they like to play. I have certainly come across a few who were trying to be discreet about their homosexuality and who played distinctly straight characters as part of their general protective coloration. And I have known a few guys who seemed troubled or uncertain about their sexuality and who played conspicuously macho characters for whatever reasons. But there is only one gay guy who has played in more than half a dozen campaigns that I have played in or GMed. I've known him to play a straight woman and a lesbian, and lots of gay men. And of course there have been a lot of characters, probably a majority, whose sexuality was never discussed. He might have thought of those as straight. But I've never known him to play a straight man that I was aware of.

In my experience straight guys play gay characters far more often than gay guys who are out play straight male characters. But very likely my experience is unusual.

Regards,


Agback


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## Agback (Aug 8, 2002)

> * originally posted by Pelosan Emperor
> 
> Of course, we are both out to our gaming group (6 straight guys)... I suppose we have to be since we play in our dining room
> 
> ...




My reading of this was that the dining room in question was not just any dining room, but "our" dining room: the dining room of the home that Pelosan shares with his gay lover. Of course, they could pretend that they were just flatmates sharing digs, unless it's a one-bedroom flat.

Regards,


Agback


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## Duncan Haldane (Aug 8, 2002)

Agback said:
			
		

> *In my experience straight guys play gay characters far more often than gay guys who are out play straight male characters. But very likely my experience is unusual.
> *




When playing D&D (which I dm more often than play) most of my characters haven't been sexually defined - ie, it never came up.

In other games that is also usually the case.  I have played in stright relationships in some games.  

Recently I played a butler in a game (well, he was a bit more than a butler - social advisor may have been a better discription).  But in a session we had a situation with a naked guy running around some gardens, and my character discretely put himself in the position to see it.  The other players noticed, but their characters didn't.

Although that didn't mean that he didn't also like girls 

cya

Duncan


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## arcseed (Aug 8, 2002)

> quote:
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Wulf, name one real individual who ever set out to do an act they considered evil. Even serial killers and tyrants are acting in what they consider to be their own best interests. The only time someone consciously sets out to do something they know is wrong is in highly emotional states, and the majority of those will cease to do those actions if they ever stop to think about them carefully.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...




Not to totally hijack the thread, but I've been one of those people.  And you're right: there's this certain sick thrill I found in hurting people and destroying beauty that's in some ways very similar to the joy I find in helping people and creating beautiful things.  A lot of it, I think, for me, was in feeling powerful, and in rebelling and defying the standards of right and wrong.

It's not something I really like talking about, 'coz I don't like the person I was then, and 'coz I mainly did the sort of psychological cruelty that requires too much explaining to make a good story.  

I kinda 'woke up' when I found out my best friend (at the time, I haven't spoken to her since) slept with some guy she barely knew 'coz she thought she had AIDS.  It seems, even then, I had my limits.  But, thinking about it, that thrill still is there in the doing of evil, I'm just a lot more disgusted by what I'd have to do to feel it.


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## Uller (Aug 8, 2002)

You know...I fail to see why sexual preference has _anything_ to do with gaming.  I'm a white male middle-class 30-something christian engineer heterosexual husband father brother son veteran paintball-playing star-gazing hockey-playing gamer cook carpenter etc. etc. etc.   Not one of those things has a wit to do with any other (except maybe the father/husband part...although in 21st centuary America, not necessarily)

I have two other hobbies that are not exactly main stream: Paintball and Astronomy.  Astronomy certainly has a bit of a "geek" aura about it (although I find most people still see it as somewhat cool and fascinating) and paintball probably has a worse image than D&D currently has.  When I mention D&D to none gamers sure, I get comments like "Isn't that that Satanic game?" but those comments are almost invariably jokes.  In my circles (and I know quite a few fundamentalist Christians), no one really believes that playing make-believe is the path to Hell.  I've been playing D&D since 1979 and even at the height of the satanic fervor in the mid 80s, very few people I knew really believed there was any problem with playing the game and most of the hype was from a very vocal minority, or so it seemed to me.    

When I mention paintball, some people become down right uncomfortable, almost as if I'm going to go "postal" and start blowing people away.  In fact, a friend of mine who plays was reported to his manager as a possible violence risk at work specifically because he plays!  Paintball players are seen as delinquent teen agers or right-wing fanatics who play "war" to train to over throw the government or some such.  Parents seem far more likely to not allow their kids to play paintball out of fear of the militaristic aspects of the game than to not allow them to play D&D...(in fact, my boss is interested in bringing his son to play paintball but said his wife doesn't like the idea of the kid playing with guns! )

But just like with D&D, I patiently explain away people's ignorant fears and misconceptions whenever I can and have organized both D&D games and paintball outings for my friends and coworkers.  Some of them have even converted (in fact, three members of my current group of gamers were recruited from my non-gaming coworkers).  One of the guys I regularly play paintball with took part in one of the outings I organized.

My point is, gamers are no more or less a non-mainstream group than any other.  Threads like this have lead me to believe that many gamers consider themselves to be part of some sort of victimized and oppressed minority.  When you are denied a job or a place to live or a seat in a restaurant or forced to the back of the bus because you are carrying a PHB THEN you'll have a point.  I think many people actually seek out victim status...it is just as much a part of the "us vs. them" mentality as the reverse.  

I like the one POV early in this thread:  the writer said he's a gamer who happens to be gay.  If you define yourself primarily by your out-of-step interests and activities, then people will treat you as if you are out-of-step (duh?).  If the only thing I talked about at work was D&D, then my coworkers would (rightly) think I was socially retarded.  

Just as you're free to make non-mainstream choices, others are free to not accept it or like it.  IMO, that's a GOOD thing (FREEDOM BABY! Yeah!).  It is human nature to distrust that which is unfamilliar...lamenting that fact is about as useful as lamenting the weather. 

Just my opinion.  Not meant to flame anyone....


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 8, 2002)

Duncan Haldane said:
			
		

> *When playing D&D (which I dm more often than play) most of my characters haven't been sexually defined - ie, it never came up.*




I've never known a straight man to seriously play a gay character.

I've played female characters before, but they tend towards sexual extremes: virginal paladins or slutty whores.

The characters I identify with most strongly, my favorite characters, are stubbornly asexual. My characters tend to focus their passions into their alignment, into " the quest": smiting evil or being evil or something in between. 

In the long run I'm just not into sex or romance in my games. If it's there at all for me, it's just a schtick.

Wulf


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 8, 2002)

Uller said:
			
		

> *
> My point is, gamers are no more or less a non-mainstream group than any other.  Threads like this have lead me to believe that many gamers consider themselves to be part of some sort of victimized and oppressed minority.  When you are denied a job or a place to live or a seat in a restaurant or forced to the back of the bus because you are carrying a PHB THEN you'll have a point.  I think many people actually seek out victim status...it is just as much a part of the "us vs. them" mentality as the reverse.
> *




   Neat point...got me thinking... but you have to admit that saying your a GAMER usually brings more hassles than is worth while... in a way we are a separate group that has values and language different from other groups. This creates a somewhat underground feeling perhaps ? Gay men probably would know better than I about "underground" culture/feeling thou. 

   It´s a pity we do make ourselves somewhat as victims sometimes. More I suppose we feel uncomprehended by non gamers than discriminated. If this is how we express our being "special" then its not so negative.

    One should notice that in many posts here the poster is openly gay and privately gamer !!  Seems to say your Gay defines very well what your about ?  Gaming is still unknown territory ? Or Gays dont like nerds just like women (not all of course ) dont ?

     Overall we can say RPG has very little sex in it... which does make us wonder why church people are so worried about it.


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## Illuminae (Aug 8, 2002)

Kinda off topic, but please someone explain to me why black mothers are a "minority".

Im afraid that the "minority" concept for the english language doesnt match exactly our correspondent in portuguese, "minoria"

I just dont get it, minorities arent "minor in quantity" groups composed by people who have specific characteristics differing from the majority of the population of a country?

Its not the first time ive seen this example of minority specially in english, and I dont them as one, thats why Im asking.


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 8, 2002)

AE Mauricio !! Sabia que vc andava por aqui de vez em quando !!

  Jose Guilherme aqui falando...

  Sorry for the portuguese... we Brazilians are a minority here on the message board...


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## Spectrum Rider (Aug 8, 2002)

I'm a gay gamer and DM; I designed the campaign world my group plays in, and I DM it most (but not all) of the time.  None of my players are gay.  They all know I'm gay (I've been with my partner for 20 years, sometimes I can't make a game because I'm going to the Gay Pride March - the kind of thing that comes up in ordinary conversation), and it doesn't seem to bother them one bit.


Many of the religions in my (deity-heavy) game are accepting of gays and gay relationships, and I have no hesitation about throwing in the occasional gay NPC (or NPC couple).  Some religions and/or cultures ARE homophobic, though - for the purposes of dramatic conflict.

Recently one of my players played a cleric of Sepia, our capricious and whimsical goddess of love.  He played him as a bi hustler, willing to flirt (or more) with any attractive or useful character nearby.  I gave him all the room he needed to do this.

One day he asked the other players "does this make you uncomfortable?  I'll tone it down if it does."  They all said no, they were enjoying it.  I said it made ME a little uncomfortable.  They were surprised.  Why, they asked?

"Well, where I come from," I said, "we don't talk this way in front of the straight people."

They all told me to get over it.  On the way out that evening, one of my players said, "you know, I always wanted to ask you how it feels playing straight PCs and NPCs.  Isn't that a little difficult for you?"  The player who played the bi cleric answered for me:  "remember, in real life he did that for years.  It's a survival skill.  He probably has 8 ranks in it!"  (He's right about my earlier days, although currently I'm about as out of the closet as possible.)

Another story:  many years ago, BEFORE I came out, a female player in my game (this was a different group of gamers) played a male fighter who came acorss as effete and effeminate. A fussy man with a talent for dancing.  Everyone just assumed he was meant to be gay, and she played to that assumption (although in 1-on-1 scenes she made it clear to me that he was 100% hetero).

She moved away.  Years later she and her husband were visiting.  By this time I WAS out.  When she found out I was gay, she went apoplectic, absolutely sure that she had offended me deeply with her "ambiguous" character.  She was so embarrassed!  I told her not to worry about it.

Interestingly, I always play male PCs, and when their sexual orientation makes it into the plot line, they're always straight.  No big deal; I think it's just a habit.

The Spectrum Rider


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## hong (Aug 8, 2002)

Spectrum Rider said:
			
		

> *
> Interestingly, I always play male PCs, and when their sexual orientation makes it into the plot line, they're always straight.  No big deal; I think it's just a habit.
> *




I grok this. I'm Asian, and in 15-odd years of gaming I think I've played an Asian character twice.


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## Angelsboi (Aug 8, 2002)

ok its time for me to speak ... 

I started at 12 and my best friend, Tommy Smith, got me hooked into RPing with one small task.  He gave me the Dragonlance Trilogy.

After reading it, we played until life stepped in and sepperated us.  I tried so hard to stay in contact and he did too but his step mom hated me and knew i was gay before i did.

I never did get to tell him how i truly felt about him and how much he gave me from that one book.  I still dont know if he was gay or straight because even though we shared the same bed when i stayed the night, nothing happened ... and he didnt have a girlfriend.

Over the years, i got comfortable enough to come out about being gay.  Im 22 now and have been out for nearly 8 years.  I was always out as a gaymer.  Im also a writer and writing fantasy books, i used a lot of D&D influences.

All of my characters have been females or gay males.  Usually the females are as Wulf said, sweet, innocent and pure (Like Goldmoon) or bitchy, brasive, and kick-ass (Like Faith from Buffy).  Most of my gay characters range from effeminate to extremely butch.

A couple of examples. I had a friend in arizona (she was a straight girl who is still my best friend).  We played twins.  Dirk and Dag (short for dagger).  They were EXTEREMLY proficient in weilding daggers and such (they were monks).  Their fathers had abused them and they grew up only being able to rust and love each other.  The group didnt seem to flip out they were brothers and gay.  They did, howver, get shocked to find them incestious.  They never once made a decision without speaking to the other.  They were the best characters i ever played.

The second was a character more or less based of my attitude and looks.  He eventually became a god but he was known as Drake Somnius aka Morpheus.  And he was a NPC who fell in love with Sasha, a straight guys character (Steve was also a straight close friend).  

*shrugs* 

I hope this has helped.


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## WizarDru (Aug 8, 2002)

Uller said:
			
		

> *I have two other hobbies that are not exactly main stream: Paintball and Astronomy.  *




Geez, I can't believe I've been carrying on discussions with such a geek. 

Truthfully, I'm suprised that Paintball has elicited such negative responses for you.  My wife used to play, but I don't know that she's ever encountered that kind of response.  

I have to agree with Wulf that generally, I tend to minimize the issues of romance and sexuality within my games.  They are usually plot points, maybe even quick diversions, but generally they are sideline distractions to laying the smack down on evil.


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## Wulf Ratbane (Aug 8, 2002)

WizarDru said:
			
		

> *They are usually plot points, maybe even quick diversions, but generally they are sideline distractions to laying the smack down on evil. *




Whoa! Hear hear!

Man, did that get the blood pumping! I felt a tingle.


Wulf


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## Some guy from Ohio (Aug 8, 2002)

> And thank you, everyone, for making this thread astonishingly flame- and problem-free. Reminds me why I like the people here so much.




Amen brother.  I don't really know any gay people (not that I am aware of) and have little experience with even the subject, but this thread shows that it takes all different types to make a community and what a great community this is.


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## Pelosan Emperor (Aug 8, 2002)

Trevalon Moonleirion said:
			
		

> I hate to hijack the thread, but the quote sort of stuck out to me... why do you have to be out since you play in the dining room?  I might be just being a total theatre nerd, but that is one of the vignettes in a play I just did last fall called The Dining Room: a daughter struggles to tell her father that she's gay and he's rather surprised...
> 
> I'm probably just making connections that don't exist though... anyhow.
> 
> Don't know any gays that play D&D...though I'm sure some gay theatre people would probably enjoy D&D...




My comment about our dining room has more to do with the fact that my partner and I live together (along with our 4 cats), and there are photos from our last vacation together on the sideboard.  It's fairly obvious that the owners of the house are a couple...  

I'm not familiar with The Dining Room you mentioned, although it does sound interesting.


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## dreadnought (Aug 8, 2002)

Angelsboi is gay? Quel shock! 
Seriously, our DM is gay and we take great pleasure in teasing him about his latest beau. Well, at least I do.
Quite clearly, gamers are a tolerant lot. Perhaps tolerant is the wrong word -- intelligent might be better. Civilized. Understanding. Accepting.Jeez, if that's what it means to be a geek then call me a proud one.
Gosh, we rock! 
Cheers, dread


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## Meridian (Aug 8, 2002)

*Triple Threat: Gay, Black, Gamer *

On being a male gamer who also happens to share the gay gene:

I came out of the closet when I was 16 and a freshman in college.  It was approximately several months after I had joined the community college gaming group.  I am now 36, and I've undergone plenty of re-inventions since then in my personality as well as my sexuality.

I was fortunate enough in my early gaming experiences with young adults to be able to play characters of alternate sexuality under a GM with whom I shared a short relationship before either of us ridding ourselves of the "bi" label.  Playing those characters gave me the strength and the confidence to deal the challenges presented to me by others who were not so enlightened.  There were more issues regarding my race than my sexuality, oddly enough, but these too were not all that serious.

To date, since I moved to Atlanta, as a GM I've played two gay NPCs, and as a player, 1 sexually ambiguous character.  I have played a variety of ethnicities in my characters, but have never felt comfortable introducing a gay character simply because of the mix of individuals in the gaming groups I've joined in my time down here.  I am the only black player in my gaming group as well as the only gay player.

Have I felt constrained in my choices in-game regarding my sexuality? If I understand the question, I haven't actually tested the waters of introducing gay characters in the games in which I've participated.  The reasons I haven't vary:

At this time in my life, I don't make sexuality a part of any portrayal of character because the games I play in don't even acknowledge that sexuality exists in the campaign world beyond the "fling for flavor" some earnest role-players engage in with buxom barmaids, so what would be the point?

The guys I play with are all straight as far as I know.  I know that one or two of them are "homo-fearful", but usually limit the expressions of that fearfulness to an acceptable level most of the time.  Out of a desire to maintain harmony with this group, I don't play the orientation card.

At the risk of starting a flame, I've also noted in most of the games I've played that the GMs for the most part stay away from trying to attach any kind of ethnic credibility to non-player characters of color, and understandably so--if done at all, it's often done badly, and perpetuates stereotypes rather than accurate portrayals.  This goes doubly so for gay credibility.  The first rule of writing is "write what you know."  I think it applies to gamemastering as well.  So I don't play gay characters because I don't expect the GMs I play with to be able to treat the existence of the trait comfortably, respectfully, or knowledgeably.  I don't fault them for a natural gap in self-identification.

Thankfully, that's not as much a consideration regarding the race issue.  I can play a person of color in an RPG when they appear, knowing ahead of time that the extent to which the "black experience" may go in my gaming group will be the safe zone of portrayal of "The Huxtables". 

Is credibility of culture a requirement for me as a player to enjoy gaming?  I'm one of those actors that prove to be such a nuisance in role-playing campaigns.  I like gaming in character, and anything that contributes to me staying in character and thinking in character is what I gravitate towards, to the consternation of some players and GMs.  However, I feel it's my responsibility to cut others slack from my abnormally high standards for an escapist activity, so I concede that certain areas just aren't comfortable or appropriate for what basically amount to civil rights discussions.

Someone mentioned a "coolness" factor in the gay community.  Ironic, isn't it? A community which accepts leather-clad role-playing along with sadistic drag queens wearing spandex as if it were a right and not a privilege counts all that as a legitimate subcategory of its culture, but wrinkles its nose when faced the far tamer version we play and calls it "weird".

I deal with this just by being me.  To paraphrase Will Smith, "I make gamer geek look good."

Does it get lonely being a gamer who happens to be gay? Sometimes.  I know that when I leave a session, and I have plans to go to a club or a movie that may or may not have black-relevant or gay-relative content present, it's like I'm traveling between whole planes of existence.  I am making more of a conscious effort to find more friends with whom I can share more than one world, but it tain't easy.  And let's not even talk about the romance part. 

I hope this long ramble helps. 

Meridian


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 9, 2002)

Nice input Meridien... what a combo of "minorities"... 

   As for the traveling between different planes of existence I think most of us that have friends outside gaming feel the same way. 

   Even with my girlfriend to a certain extent this happens. I go straight from gaming to her house... and she isnt exactly enthusiastic about me gaming... so mentioning what happened during the game is a no no.... to slow down after a full blooded major  D&D action packed combat and to have to keep it off my mind and quiet is very torturing.


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## Illuminae (Aug 9, 2002)

well, i think everyone took my post for a troll...

well nevermind then

still cant understand why black people are considered "minorities", in any language, that is...


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## Illuminae (Aug 9, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *AE Mauricio !! Sabia que vc andava por aqui de vez em quando !!
> 
> Jose Guilherme aqui falando...
> 
> Sorry for the portuguese... we Brazilians are a minority here on the message board... *




E rapaz!

Também tava querendo saber quem era voce, mas noa sei pq diabos nao perguntei antes. 

O jeito que vc falou me da a entender que a gente se conhece, e seu nome nao e estranho, mas eu sou PESSIMO com nomes, entao se for esse o caso, me desculpe, e me de uma dica.

Se nao, MUITO PRAZER! 

What he said.


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## BeholderBurger (Aug 10, 2002)

Gee,

Thanks people. I know my lecturer is gonna really buzz off this essay


----------



## BeholderBurger (Aug 10, 2002)

Gee,

Thanks people. I know my lecturer is gonna really buzz off this essay


----------



## BeholderBurger (Aug 10, 2002)

Gee,

Thanks people. I know my lecturer is gonna really buzz off this essay


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 10, 2002)

Vc eh careca e gosta de mapas nao ?


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## Benben (Aug 10, 2002)

Illuminae said:
			
		

> *Kinda off topic, but please someone explain to me why black mothers are a "minority".
> 
> Im afraid that the "minority" concept for the english language doesnt match exactly our correspondent in portuguese, "minoria"
> 
> ...




In English usage minority has two meanings.  The one used most deals with percentages.   Anything with less than 51% of a body is considered a minority.   In this case african-americans represent around 17% of the US population.  

In sociology, minority refers to an ethnic group or group of people that does not hold the economic or political power for an area.  In the above case the black woman may live in the Congo, but as a woman comprising 51% of the population she is still a minorty as she lacks political or economic power.

Clear?


----------



## Poltergeist (Aug 10, 2002)

I would have to agree with the posts that mention that it is actually more intimidating to admit being a gamer in the gay community than being gay in the gaming community!  I find in my own life, pretty much the order I admit my quirks in to new people are:

1)  I am gay
2)  I am pagan
3)  I....I....I....game.  "But I have good personal hygiene, really!"

In response to the original question that started this post, I feel that being gay and learning to accept and integrate my sexuality (I started coming out when I was 14 and pretty much finished when I was 21) has helped me be in a good place in regards to being open minded about life in general rather than feeling like I need to over-conform to other social mores.  In other words, I feel free to be myself because I *know* who I am through a lot of soul searching and self exploration.  The bottom line is that I have never let the pressures of society dictate who I am or how I believe and while I may have turned out that way regardless of sexuality, having to face *not* fitting into societies ideal structure from a very early age helped me learn to be free and happy about it.


----------



## Poltergeist (Aug 10, 2002)

The term minority is most often used to represent what are referred to as "SEP" or "Social-Economic-Political" minorities rather than numerical minorities.


----------



## Warchild (Aug 10, 2002)

This thread reminds me that no matter how old or experienced i am, i am still pretty damn square! I've never has to deal with issues like this, much less at the game table. All i know is that it stands to reason that gamers would be more accepting of a homosexual person since they have a SMALL taste of what its like being outside the "game" of life. Any guy at my table that thought being gay was "weird" or unacceptable would get my hand upside the back of his head. Twice. 

Glass houses and all that.


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## The Serge (Aug 10, 2002)

I typically don't do things like this, but in the name of solidarity...

I've been playing since i was 11 or 12.  I've known about my sexual orientation since i was about 10 or so, although I never really came out until two years ago.  As a result most of the people with whom I've played D&D and other RPGs with over the years never knew and, according to them, never suspected (I just seem odd to them, no gay).  I'm almost 28 now and I typically don't discuss my sexuality.  I'm also African American, so in a sense I have a double whammy with regards to stereotypes associated with gamers.  To make matters more complex, I collect comics, listen to Romantic periods symphonic music and Black Gospel (although I'm agnostic), collect soundtracks, and have Masters in Education with plans to pursue a Ph.D. in English or Religion.  Hmmmm...  Do I have issues?

The folks with whom I've played regluarly over the past two years apparently know I'm gay but don't discuss it, although on occasion, someone will say something and all eyes will turn on me to study my reaction.  I don't discuss it because I suspect that some of the others, while willing to accept me, would still be uncomfortable knowing knowing.

The fact that I'm gay and Black makes the entire gaming thing interesting.  I have only met a few African American men who game.  For many Black people, I think gaming seems too insolated from their experiences, which are rooted in a kind of apathetic reality.  Furthermore, until the 80s, I don't know that too many predominately Black neighborhoods sold that many gaming material... assuming one could find a bookstore to begin with.  Fantasy is just too out there for most Black Americans, especially Fantasy that seems so White.  D&D and most popular forms of Fantasy appear to be rooted in a Western mindset, appear to take place in medieval Europe, and seem to make clear color distinctions.  Finally, to many Black Americans, the whole idea of fantasy seems too close to occultism... something they are not alone in.

Since I tend to date Black men, I often don't share much about my gaming or my collecting.  It's just not something most are interested in.

As for being a "gaymer" (I like that one.  It's a keeper), I have gay NPCs, although I've never aired their sexuality in games since the opportunity never presents itself.  I have plans to write a series of novels with a gay Paladin who falls in love with a gay Necromancer (I've always thought it would be interesting if Drizzt and Entreri got it going on.  The hatred they share is so sublime it has to be latent lust).  Elves in my world are truly bi-sexual, willing to copulate with any remotely attractive humanoid or demi-human.  The Elven thing my gamers tend to be aware of.

As for feeling isolated... Well, sometimes the little comments about female characters on book covers end up elliciting a bemused response from me since I don't see women as sex objects... or as attractive (although I can easily recognize an attractive woman).  I ignore such nonsense.  However, I tend not to ignore comments associated with homophobia or heterosexism.

This was nice.  Good idea.  

So...  any good-looking, mature gaymers out there in Central Florida?


----------



## Rashak Mani (Aug 11, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> * So...  any good-looking, mature gaymers out there in Central Florida?
> *




  Hey !! Trying to find playmates is against the board rules !   

(Good luck finding the perfect game/sex/life companion all together... hetero, homo or otherwise... chicks dont dig D&D    )


----------



## Illuminae (Aug 11, 2002)

Rashak Mani said:
			
		

> *Vc eh careca e gosta de mapas nao ? *




nao, ehehehhe

eu ja entendi tudo
vc e o lebe
a gente se conheceu oficialmente no domingo passado na Templo Budista
vc chegou com o ze e a cassia e sentou na nossa mesa lembra?

tentei achar seu icq e nao consegui
vc tem?
me manda um mail e talz


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 11, 2002)

Renato errado !!  hahaha... vc é o que tava com a namorada 

   Tem um cara com o e-mail quase igual ao teu...  meu e-mail  zes@brturbo.com   icq quase nunca uso.


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## Horacio (Aug 11, 2002)

Well, I usually don't mind a few occasional phrase in non-English language, in fact I sometimes do it, but this is beginning to be annoying. Please, if you want to write in portuguese, do it with private messages. 

Obrigado!


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 11, 2002)

Tres Bien... we had stopped anyway... at least you know its portuguese and not spanish. Gayme on.

   Merci


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## Horacio (Aug 11, 2002)

I live in France, but I'm Spanish, so I can recognise it 

And thanks to that, I could understand rather well your messages (Portuguese isn't very hard for a Spaniard ), but I suspect most board members aren't so lucky


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## Ralts Bloodthorne (Aug 11, 2002)

UH-oh, combat boot, flannel shirt, baseball cap wearing guy with short blonde hair...  Must be homophobic.  Quick, delete the thread!

LOL

  Anyway, even though I've not gay, I would like to give a little input.
  My group claims to hetrosexual, but we have serious doubts about one person (mainly because we caught him with his lover once) but in a way, I'm digressing.
  Despite being ex-military, a country-boy, and hetro, it's never bothered me to have homosexual people in my group.  Some of my hetro players rp gay PC's.  Why?  Because it makes for an interesting PC.
  While all of the others are hooking up with bar-maids or bards of the opposite sex, we currently have a paladin who looks for love with other men.
  We've had homosexuality in the plot line (Must stop a rebellion against a fair and just king, whose enemies have whipped people into a frenzy about the "Prince Consort" to dethrone him) and in PC's lives (homosexual NPC's, PC's, ect)
  Now, the only problem of late, has been the one (recently) rabidly anti-homosexual of the group.  We're all hetro, and poke fun at everything (including each other), but this guy goes to far.  Mainly because some of us *know* this guy is gay.
  It's not like we cared, or like it was an issue, until he began the anti-homosexual comments, and told me that if I didn't get rid of all the homosexual references into the campaign (The wizard who had no idea that the paladin was gay, until he admitted both his sexual preference and his love for the mage with his dying breath, and now this wizard has become a lich and is desperately trying to bring back his beloved.  The PC's are entreated by the soul of the deceased Paladin to stop the wizard in has madness, and force him to come face to face with his grief.  The adventure we played out, in RAVENLOFT of all places!) he would quit.
  Sorry, but I have to ask, what is this guys problem?  We don't care about past, sexuality, or your private life, what gives this guy the percieved right to dictate terms to me?
  Maybe you can explain it.  In 20 years of gaming, and countless gamers (more than a few homosexual ones) I've never encountered anything like that.  Even a guy who would freak if a homosexual propositioned him in real life doesn't get all bent out of shape over the adult theme of our game.  Epic rp'ing involves dealing with uncomfortable issues as well as powerful foes.

  So, to get back on the thread, I've noticed that homosexuality in gaming, or in a gaming group is _usually_ dealt with in a much more mature manner.
  Bob the hetrosexual players does not see Jim the recently admitted homosexual as just some gay guy on the street, but as Jim, the guy who plays thieves, and always has a plan to escape that's saved the party more than once.  Martha isn't just some man-hater lesbian because she has a girlfriend, but an agressive fellow gamer who likes to play female paladins out to spread the word of her god.
  For the most part, gamers recognise that sterotypes don't fit, and pigeonholing is sloppy thinking.

(And for the side note:  I've done things I knew were wrong or evil, because they felt good, or I needed to.  What did I do?  None of your business.  I know spend a lot of time doing penance by helping others.  So I can name one.  *ME!!* And what the hell does evil have to do with gay?  Some of the most evil people ever were hetro!)

(Had to edit because I accidently forgot to finish a thought when I was dishing up dinner for the kids, and it looked _really_ cruel toward people!)


----------



## Argent Silvermage (Aug 11, 2002)

*Sniff...I have tears in my eyes...*



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> *One of my current players is gay, and I've had others in the past.  It's never been an issue either way.  Sexuality doesn't have a large bearing on the game per se, outside of some fairly basic inter-pc or pc-npc relations that are kept mostly to the side.  Is a gay player more likely to have a character who is gay?  Yes.  Does this tend to have a huge bearing on the game proper? No.
> 
> I have only lost one player to predjudices in the past twenty-two years, when he became 'born again'.  In that particular instance, the player merely stopped playing and left the group.  None of my players have ever felt (or at least never communicated to me) that they needed to conform to anything other than the printed rules.  If there is a noticable difference between a hetero gamer and a homosexual gamer, I've never noticed it. *




Thanks Wizardru! I have always appreciated the openness of your groups. I still don't remember him having a problem with me. But he definatly had issues even then. being a gay, pagan, gamer is just what comes naturaly to me. I still cannot believe that I let that @sshole Jim into the game....Lord and Lady take me now.


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## Argent Silvermage (Aug 11, 2002)

*Yes I am!*

Well Now that I've outed myself....
I started gaming when I was 15. I didn't even think about sex until I was 17 and then I wondered why I could only think of the football team when my girlfriend and I were together. (could be because she kicked me around more than they did LOL) I eventualy realised I'm Bi sexual when I was about 20 and hid ther fact by becoming lost in my friends lives. Eventualy I could not go with out love anymore. My friends and the gaming was great but I needed more. I came out to my 4 best friends and they all looked at me like *I* was the last to know. 
In short Gamers are the most accepting people in the world, in my opinion. I'm in the best and most powerful relationship of my life now. I have the love of a fantastic man, The best friends any could ask for and I'm in one of the best games i can think of...Oh yeah...and I love myself as much as I love my partner. (something new for me.)


----------



## alsih2o (Aug 11, 2002)

*Re: Yes I am!*



			
				Argent said:
			
		

> * I came out to my 4 best friends and they all looked at me like I was the last to know.
> *




 lol, been there for a few of these, many times folks aren't as shocked as you think they will be


----------



## Argent Silvermage (Aug 11, 2002)

*Re: Re: Yes I am!*



			
				alsih2o said:
			
		

> *
> 
> lol, been there for a few of these, many times folks aren't as shocked as you think they will be  *




The worst part was It took me 10 minutes to finaly say it and my friend Annabelle jumps up and says in her loudest voice "I won the bet! Pay up suckers!" They had had a betting pool anoung my friends on when I told them. It started when the met the guy I would eventualy fall in love with...the cheating lieing piece of @#!%$#@....But I'm not bitter or anything!

To say the least I  was mortified....I have since gotten over myself.


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## Tjaden (Aug 11, 2002)

Add another gaymer to the list... I just wanted to say that I really respect all of your opinions and beliefs towards homosexuals.  I think everyone in my gaming group knows I'm gay now, except maybe one or two who don't game with us much anymore.  Unfortunately, I am the only gay one in the entire group, and at times it can be pressuring, especially when someone makes the occasional gay-bashing joke.  On the inside, I'm not one to take those sort of comments lightly, but I usually don't let my anger show, which keeps the game going without too much trouble. Anyway, on a side note, please let me know if there are any gay gamers located close to downers grove, IL, or university of iowa (where i will be going soon).  I did notice that Wulf lives very close to me, but I didn't see anything about his orientation, and I'm also sort of looking for people in iowa right about now.. (no offense Wulf)     I love this board!


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## Duncan Haldane (Aug 12, 2002)

*gamers more accepting....*

I've believed this for a long time.  For many years now I've been attending 4-6 game conventions a year.  I've played hundreds of different characters in many settings, genres and systems.

Because of this I've had exposure to the mindsets of many different characters.  I remember one game at a convention where I played a middle-aged, single jewish woman, who was homophobic and extremely religious.  I am a gay male aetheist (and at the time I was in my early twenties).  But even though I am so different to that character I still managed to understand her life, and think about things from her perspective.  I argued her points, and defended her sensibilities.

I came out of that game with a better understanding of zeal - something I've never really had in my life.  I could see more of the world because of experiencing this person.

I believe the saying is "before judging a man, try walking a mile in his shoes" - something like that anyway.  When rolelplaying, especially if you do get into the mind of a character, you are walking that mile in their shoes.

And once you do that you can see that people are people.  They want love, they want acceptance, they want life.  They want to be happy and safe.  That is common to us all (I know someone will dispute this, but so what).  Once we can see this, and accept it, we can accept different people a lot easier.

And so, to re-iterate, I suggest that by playing many different roles (at least when people get into character rather than just seeing a set of stats), one learns to accept different people.

Duncan


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## Olive (Aug 12, 2002)

i'm going to out my sister, who is a gamer, and sometimes posts here as well... but i'd hate to answer the questions on her behalf, so i'll just email her the thread...


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## JESawyer (Aug 12, 2002)

*Re: Yes I am!*



			
				Argent said:
			
		

> *In short Gamers are the most accepting people in the world, in my opinion.*



I'm very happy so many of you have had pleasant experiences with gamers, but I have noticed the opposite.  In my experience, RPGers are among the most homophobic people I deal with.  They may be polite or silent when gay or bisexual people are around/watching/listening, but I've seen far too many bigoted gamers to think that they are open-minded, as a rule.

It actually got so bad at one point that in the middle of a bunch of stupid gay jokes, I laughed excessively and loudly said, "HA, HA!  GAY!  IT'S FUNNY!  LET'S GO TIP SOME COWS AND BEAT UP DARKIES." And then everyone sort of mumbled and walked away.


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## Rashak Mani (Aug 12, 2002)

I wouldnt say I´m homophobic but I do feel a little bad around overly gayish people.... or better saying I used to. I was a very shy teen and introverted with very bad sense of sex and image. Anything Gay was kinda of threatning. Gay jokes and so forth help give security. I had no gay friends to make the point that it wasnt nice making gay jokes either or that they are nice people.

   Maybe it was this kind of gamer you were having contact ?  Gets better with age sometimes.... at least in my case I am much better in relation to others sexual preferences. I wouldnt say gamers are more so than others.

  (They do say overly homophobic people are closet gays so I try to keep any homophobia under control...    In fact a colleague of mine wouldnt stop cracking gay jokes, sometime later I discovered he had found his gayer self.... amazing... he was all macho bullsh*t all the time. )

  Once we become adults and we make friends that are straight, gay, lesbian, religious (this is the hardest one), etc... we learn a lot and respect more. Then its no big issue anymore.


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## Jack Haggerty (Aug 12, 2002)

*Where're the women?*

Wow...  Plenty of gay gamers hanging around, but where'd all of the women go?

The group I play in includes two women.

One of the women is my wife.

The other woman is the eldest of our group.  She's our most recent recruit, and has never before played in a PnP RPG.  

In fact, she defected to D&D from Everquest.  

Ha!


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## Asathas (Aug 12, 2002)

*Yep... here's another one.*

I'm 33 now... I've been gaming since I was 10.  I started "exploring" when I was 11 and started coming out as gay at 17.  Now that the stage is set...

First to answer the original question... if my sexuality has in any way influenced my gaming (and thus my membership in a different minority) it's in two ways:

One - I don't tend to play gay characters.  I think the years of assuming I was straight simply because I hadn't stopped to figure things out followed by several years understanding I was gay but not being out about it made it a bit more "mainstream" to play a straight character.  My last 6 characters have been (most recent first) a straight drow assassin (he's a predesigned character so don't shoot me please), a neuter tremen druid/fighter, a straight male lizardfolk shaman, a neuter modron mage, a straight female druid/monk, and a straight arabic dwarven mage.  As you see, I have a few asexual characters but the rest are straight.

Two - Our gaming group meets in my home.  My other half and I started the group with some gay friends almost 5 years ago.  One of them had to quit due to medical problems and another because he and his partner moved away.  We added a straight couple who had been friends of mine and a straight (although into B&D/S&M/Leather) male friend of theirs.  When their friend left the group due to lack of available time, we put out the word we were looking for new players on the WOTC web site forums.  As part of the posting, we explained that we are a gay couple and the group meets in our home.  No, we aren't going to molest, convert, or in other ways hassle any one but prospective gamers had to understand that they'd be coming to our home and that is one place we don't take attitude and certainly not insults.  We added 4 players from that posting and all of them have stayed with the group now for over a year.  We also have two new players who are both gay although only one plays regularly.  

The group has been as cool as I could ever imagine.  In our main campaign, one of the straight guys plays a bard who "boinks" anything with two legs and we're not sure if that's a limitation or just a matter of lack of opportunity.  In a previous campaign, one guy played a character with a fetish for non-humans and the more non-human the better.  Generally sex doesn't come up much in the game but if it does, it's not an issue to sweat over.  We're all friends and spend at least 40% of the time teasing each other and having fun.  Reminiscing over past encounters in-game and especially those memorable bad die rolls.

Though I didn't mean to get so long-winded, my point was generally that we have to take a bit more care about who we play with just to make sure that the sessions remain fun and that we're not getting lectured and/or insulted in our own home.  And as for myself, I've spent so much time in my life just trying to blend in, that I don't tend to play characters who are strongly noticible in the area that I qualify as a minority.  I've played just about every bizarre race, class, background, and what-have-you, but my own minority doesn't seem to come up.  I guess I'm somewhat concerned... possibly even afraid... about putting it that much in the faces of folks I consider friends.  I guess I'm not as "out" as I thought I was.

Mr. Night, Saoghail, Asathas, Nordom, Niolo, and damn if I can't remember the name of that dwarf...  or you could just call me Adam.


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## SSS-Druid (Aug 13, 2002)

Warlord Ralts said:
			
		

> *UH-oh, combat boot, flannel shirt, baseball cap wearing guy with short blonde hair...  Must be homophobic.  Quick, delete the thread!*




Heh.

Don't be too sure; you just described my ex.


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## el-remmen (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Wulf said:_*
> I've never known a straight man to seriously play a gay character.
> *




I have.  Of course, I was playing a monk who was repressing all physical desire - so the fact never came up in the very brief game that unfortunately ended before we got to do much. . .


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## Cougar (Aug 13, 2002)

Well, I am personally not gay (I think) but I have had two groups in which members were gay. The first had one gay and one very confused bi. The group we have now has had two gay members, but one has since left us (thankfully). I have actually encountered more gay people in a RPG context than in any other.

I of course can not say if or why other gamers either more readily accept or shun gay gamers, but I can say that sexuality has never mattered to me in any form, so gaming is just another aspect of life where I may encounter people whom are different than I. I have been very good friends with all the gay gamers I have played with and consider them friends outside the gaming environment. To my knowledge no one in either of my groups ever treated any gay member differently (although in my first group only half knew about the two gay gamers). My friend from the first group had never fully come out to everyone (not to family and certain friends) and he told me his gaming was a reflection of his acting ability and the opportunity to play whatever role he desired. He never played female or gay characters.


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## Halma (Aug 13, 2002)

*Honored*

I am asking this as a true friend.  So if this seems incensitive please let me know.  I am truely innocent and sometimes niave where gay people are concerned so please forgive me. (Being from Oil City PA; population 7,000)

But strangely I found myself feelling really honored by learning that my friend was Gay.  I say honored because he would share this information with me and be as open about himself as possible.  

Am I wrong in this feeling? 

I knew already, but his telling me directly really hit home as being a stepping stone into a true friendship.  Not that it matters what sexual prefrence he has, but that he trusts me enough to except him for what he is, and with no judgement.


Halma


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## Samnell (Aug 13, 2002)

> Am I wrong in this feeling?




I don't think so, for the same reasons you listed.


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## Poltergeist (Aug 13, 2002)

> So... any good-looking, mature gaymers out there in Central Florida?




*Raises hand*

Oh, wait...never mind.  I am horribly immature.  ;-)


----------



## Winterthorn (Aug 13, 2002)

*I'm a friend of Dorothy too*

I'm really impressed by this thread, and I couldn't stay silent.

From my experience, I have had to, and still do, separate my sexuality from my gaming interests. I hope to merge the two some day. But the gamers I know today are too homophobic and mysogynist too. While we all enjoy gaming, beyond that my politics veer a hard left while their's becomes straight AND narrow. To be more precise I know two who simply can't deal with "harsh realities" such as fact that they have a homosexual (moi) at the table--I swear at least one is a deep, deep, closet case, but it is only up to him to come out because no one has the right to drag someone out of the closet.

On the flip side, none of my queer friends seem the type to accept gaming. Today, I would be embarrassed to let gay men know of my hobbies. (I would add that in my years working for Pride celebrations, I got to know many queers, and very little evidence that my gay male peers were interested in anything but dancing, sex and drugs or decorating their condos. Oh the stereotyping  But that has been my experience in one the most gay friendly cities in Canada. I wish it had been different. Maybe it can sometime in the future?)

Gawd, I just realized, I play with 4-5 men, 3 of which are in their mid-30's and still live with their mothers (fathers deceased or divorced). My last boyfriend, the sweet air-head horror genre fan, would have snapped his fingers had he known this and said: "Can you say Bates, grrlfriend, Norman Bates?"  

I have lived strange experiences and I have odd friends. Since I'm moving to a new city soon, maybe I'll find a "gayme" much more to my liking?

Change is a good thing.

Thanks for the chance to spill my 2 cents. I appreciate this thread.

-Winterthorn 

PS: I saw a few photos of Gen Con around here, and I found Morrus looked kinda cute behind his self-conscious scruffiness. Just an innocent little o' thought of mine


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## The Serge (Aug 13, 2002)

Poltergeist said:
			
		

> *
> 
> *Raises hand*
> 
> Oh, wait...never mind.  I am horribly immature.  ;-) *


----------



## WizarDru (Aug 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Yes I am!*



			
				alsih2o said:
			
		

> *
> 
> lol, been there for a few of these, many times folks aren't as shocked as you think they will be  *




Heh.  Another friend came out when I was in college (the 'I'm in self-denial, I'll join a frat' phase) and waited for me to react.  It was pretty funny, as I was the fourth person he'd told, and no one had given him anything but a 'Oh.  That's nice.  Where we going for dinner?' kind of response.  He was right put out.  I think he had prepared a whole 'afterschool special' set of material to use, and none of us gave him the opportunity.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Yes I am!*



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> *
> ...and none of us gave him the opportunity. *




*chuckle* My freshmen roommate was gay, and when he told me - he had hard worked it up into some dramatic moment. 

I had a similar reaction to what you stated. Though, I can understand his concern- we had been getting along pretty well and he was worried I would freak out.

Overall, I am thankful for that experience. He was an interesting guy, and he was very open to discussing homosexuality on a personal and a social level. 

I don't think my opinion about homosexuality changed, but I came to the definite opinion that what people do in the privacy of their own lives is none of my business- and nor should they make it my business.

Life is never boring..

FD


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## Piratecat (Aug 13, 2002)

*Re: Where're the women?*



			
				Jack Haggerty said:
			
		

> *Wow...  Plenty of gay gamers hanging around, but where'd all of the women go? *




In the Scarred Lands game I play in (and used to run), there are five or six women; two of them are gay. No one really cares about their sexuality one way or another.


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## Urbanmech (Aug 13, 2002)

When I first joined my group out here, I was the token straight guy out of the five of us.  They were out from the beginning but sex doesn't come up too much during the game.  There are a lot of jokes about visiting the bathhouse though.

Now our group is balanced with 3 straigh, 3 gay.  Ironically it is the straight guys that have run more of the female characters.  I feel that the gay gamers are more accepting of the cross gender roleplaying than some of my all straight groups.  

In the end it doesn't matter what anyones orientation is or what types of charactes they play, as long as we are sitting around rolling dice and having a great time.


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## Pelosan Emperor (Aug 13, 2002)

*Re: Re: Re: Yes I am!*



			
				WizarDru said:
			
		

> *... no one had given him anything but a 'Oh.  That's nice.  Where we going for dinner?' kind of response.  He was right put out.  I think he had prepared a whole 'afterschool special' set of material to use, and none of us gave him the opportunity. *




 

That sounds a bit like my feelings when I told my close friends in college.  I had this whole presentation prepared (minus handouts and the PowerPoint slide show)... and I never *EVER* had the chance to use it!  All they said was "oh, OK... it's just one more thing for us to laugh about."

In retrospect, I couldn't have asked for a better reaction... but at the time I was thinking "But I have this speech!  Clever comments!  I PREPARED FOR THIS AND *YOU DON'T CARE???*"

My first moment as an official drama queen


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## davethegame (Aug 13, 2002)

My D&D group at college consists of four straight guys, one bisexual guy, one lesbian, one straight girl, and two bisexual girls. (Though it is rare to have all the players there at once, I don't think I could handle running 8 players!) 

The gaming club has higher numbers, but I don't know exacts.

As an aside, there have been several Gaylaxicons (gay science fiction conventions) which I understand have a decent amount of gaming. Run by two very nice ladies who put out their own Button Men set for Gaylaxicon. Information is at http://www.gaylactic-network.org/gaylaxicon/index.html

Beholder- I did a 20 page essay on gender issues of representation in gaming cover art which may help you. I can send it or post it, if you (or anyone else) is interested. I warn you: it's not very favorable and semi-stereotypical of gamers...


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## takyris (Aug 13, 2002)

Attention Straight Guys:  It's really important of us all to be conscientious of our Gaymer brethren.  They've worked really hard to come up with a speech to defend themselves and protect themselves against the discrimination they think you're going to hit them with.  So please, when your fellow gamer abashedly pauses and then ends a sentence with "...and my boyfriend" or some other "Ha, I'm gay," line, please say, "Oh my God, you're GAY?  If the Lord Jesus hadn't already condemned me to hell for playing Dungeons and Dragons, I would SOOOOO ask him to smite you."

-Tacky

PS: No gay people in my group.  I notice that our group has some anti-gay humor in it, yes, usually involving elves or bards, but at the same time, we've also given the party druid the nickname "Leafblower" for his presumed floral-persuasion, dissed the cleric (who slept with a glamoured cockroach monster while charmed), and made NUMEROUS veiled comments about the half-elf with the halfling girlfriend (Because you know what they say about guys who date halflings, snicker snicker).  So if we made fun of every D&D-land sexual possibility except being gay, that would be discrimination, saying that they're too sensitive and weak to handle the dissing every other character is getting.  In real life, I have gay friends, bi friends, and lesbian friends, with whom I am comfortable making jokes, just like they joke about me and my darned heterosexuality.  So I think that there's a line to be drawn SOMEWHERE between the razzing that every group gets in a good-natured gaming session, and real homophobic commentary.  I don't know where that line is, and it'd be a whole lot less worrisome if there WERE a gay guy in our group who was making the same jokes and telling us when we'd officially ticked him off.  But there ain't.

And this is a much longer footnote than I had intended...


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## Orco42 (Aug 13, 2002)

takyris said:
			
		

> * it usually involving elves or bards*




I can't blame your for that. When I first saw the picture of a bard in the PHB I laughed. Then I saw the picture of Corellon Larethian in Deities and Demigods..... *WOW!*


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## The Serge (Aug 13, 2002)

Orco42 said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I can't blame your for that. When I first saw the picture of a bard in the PHB I laughed. Then I saw the picture of Corellon Larethian in Deities and Demigods..... WOW! *




They're not gay or transgender.  They're just screwed up looking...  C'mon, Corellon looks like an emaciated hermaphrodite and Devis... well, he just looks like a great big, odd-looking jerk.


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## Poltergeist (Aug 14, 2002)

> Corellon looks like an emaciated hermaphrodite




Amen to that.  Corellon's image is quite disturbing.  He reminded me more of a flower laden version of Marilyn Manson than of a gay guy.


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## rackabello (Aug 14, 2002)

The Serge said:
			
		

> *Devis... well, he just looks like a great big, odd-looking jerk. *



i've always thought he looked sort of like Sting, which i find mildly irritating.  ole Sting hasn't inspired greatness in me since leaving the Police.


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## sotmh (Aug 14, 2002)

Allow me to abashedly post me too. 

My experiences are similar to what Samnell describes.   Not much more to add. 

sotmh


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 3, 2003)

*Out loud and Hobbit!*

Hey gang!I'm bumping this thread as we have a lot of new members who may be interested.
Argent.


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## hong (Mar 3, 2003)

*World's gayest musical*

Well now, what a coincidence.

This weekend here in small-town Sydney, capital of Austria, I just saw _Mamma Mia_, the musical built around a score of Abba's songs. To make the occasion perfect, it was also the weekend of the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras.

Something tells me the producers know their audience, with several scenes featuring muscly young d00ds dancing around, stripped to the waist. Although personally I preferred the perky young ChyXX0rs dancing around, even if they weren't stripped to the waist. 

It was an incredible experience. At the end, much of the audience was on their feet clapping, singing and dancing. There's just something eternally appealing about Mamma Mia, Super Trouper, white spandex and platform soles. 

I have now ripped the double CD album Abba: the First Ten years to mp3s. The perfect D&D soundtrack, if I do say so myself. My players are going to kill me next session.


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## WizarDru (Mar 3, 2003)

*Re: World's gayest musical*



			
				hong said:
			
		

> *It was an incredible experience. At the end, much of the audience was on their feet clapping, singing and dancing. There's just something eternally appealing about Mamma Mia, Super Trouper, white spandex and platform soles. *




Nah, it's just you Aussies seem to have some amazing fixation on 'em.   I mean, the three films I most associate with Australia are "Muriel's Wedding", "Priscilla: Queen of the Desert" and "Mad Max".  ABBA's all over those films.  And I'm sure 'Waterloo' is probably playing on the cruiser's radio in the last one, so there you go.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 3, 2003)

At the risk of sounding REALLY Gay (well, we all know THAT possibly cant happen can we?), i love ABBA and the ATeens too.  Then again i have a thing for sweedish bands, Robyn, Cardigans, etc etc etc


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 3, 2003)

Ah... Australia. Home of the woofiest men on earth.


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## diaglo (Mar 3, 2003)

*Re: Out loud and Hobbit!*



			
				Argent said:
			
		

> *Hey gang!I'm bumping this thread as we have a lot of new members who may be interested.
> Argent. *




not a new member. but i missed this the first time.

i didn't read more than the first post on the previous 3 pages.

i'm straight. married. and christian. but yes, i know several gaymers. 4 of 8 in one group. 1 of 6 in a different group. and 4 of 10 in my current group.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 3, 2003)

4 of ten??  Good lord Diaglo who?

You have Shayne, Glenn (DM), You, Myself, Sean, Sam, Yourself, David (Timmay) and Marty ... 

Only SHayne, Sean and myself are gay ... Unless you count Randy but the hubby stopped gaming until he finishes training for Wachovia ... 

And i cant believe we have 9 people.  *smacks head*

But we mesh together so well ... and Sam does have a habbit of not showing sometimes ...


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## Angelsboi (Mar 3, 2003)

Funny ... I was re-reading the first page and damn, that was after i broke up with Brian and just before i found Randy. 

Ok so hes not pagan, but he is nice and has been the ever supportful hubby and tried RPing at our game.


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## Desdichado (Mar 3, 2003)

I'd just like to raise my hand and say me too...

Waitaminute...  I guess I just got caught up in the thread.  I'm not really gay.

But I see your point.  I do belong to another subculture of sorts -- I'm Mormon, and in my experience, a lot of folks seem to think Mormons are a lot of real weirdos for some reason.  Although I tell myself I'm being stupid for doing so, I tend to keep that relatively quiet unless someone asks me directly about religion, because I don't want to a) end up on the dissecting table as everyone tries to "figure me out" or b) get marginalized within the group as the "weirdo" who stands out.

Not that I have a real concrete fear of either of those things happening, but I tend to avoid putting myself in a position where either of them are a possibility as well.  When I really think about it, I know I'm being silly and I shouldn't even give it a second thought -- and I don't really, because my reacions are more subconscious than conscious.


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## alsih2o (Mar 3, 2003)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> *
> 
> But I see your point.  I do belong to another subculture of sorts -- I'm Mormon, and in my experience, a lot of folks seem to think Mormons are a lot of real weirdos for some reason.  *




 josh i am sure you would have been highly entertained by the irish fellow (an OLDER man) who took time to explain to me that mormons run vegas and the bureau of indian affairs o a train ride in london.

 he had several _interesting_ theories


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## Desdichado (Mar 3, 2003)

See, that's exactly why, subconsciously, I tend to not bring it up unless someone asks me directly about religion.


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## Coreyartus (Mar 4, 2003)

Alright, you can add me to the list as well.  

I have to mention our Yahoo Group, Gaymers.  It has been a very good, nurturing, protective, enlightening, helpful group that all of the members have really enjoyed.  We are just a group of everyday joes and jills, and it's been great being able to debate the whole gaming experience from a gay angle.  I would highly recommend the group to anyone posting here that might be interested.  They're a good group of people.

On a related note, there was some talk on the list that there might be a get together this year at Origins and at Gen Con.  I, for one, will not be able to attend either, but I think it's a fantastic idea that is long overdue.  A legitimate get-tegether could go a long way to alleviating the percieved tensions of gays in the gaming world, and bring us all closer together.  There are a lot of gay folk out there that don't have the mature groups some of us have spoken about on this board, and connecting with others could be a good thing to keeping them playing games.

Just my two cents!

--Coreyartus


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 4, 2003)

How about something on the east coast?


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## Desdichado (Mar 4, 2003)

I've got two comments:

1) My own issue, as much as it applies to the question at hand (if at all) doesn't have any bearing on gaming; I'm reluctant to volunteer information on my religion in any situation unless asked directly, due to quite probably subconscious and unreasoning fears of "standing out" too much.  

2)  I guess I'm not sure what being gay and being gamers really has in common, so I'm not really sure what the _raison d'etre_ for a gaymer mailing list is.  Is it to develop a community of like-minded individuals, or is there more to it?  I've never been on the lookout for a Mormon online gaming community or anything like that, for instance.


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 4, 2003)

Hi Joshua,
This is not a flame so please don't be offended by what I'm going to say.
Please keep religion out of this thread. The thread is for gay men and women to connect. Please don't turn it into anything other than it is.
Argent.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 4, 2003)

Joshua - Its hard for gay people to be accepted.  We hear of Gay bashing but i dont recall a baptist or mormon bashing.

Also, some DMs have issues with men playing female characters and visa versa.  I have always pretty much played a female character or a gay male character.  Some Dms have issues with this.

If you have a group of gay gamers (like i play in on Saturdays) its far more comfy to say you and so and so go shack up and not get weird looks.


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## lord irial (Mar 4, 2003)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> *I guess I'm not sure what being gay and being gamers really has in common, so I'm not really sure what the raison d'etre for a gaymer mailing list is.  Is it to develop a community of like-minded individuals, or is there more to it?  I've never been on the lookout for a Mormon online gaming community or anything like that, for instance. *



I'm not sure what the experiences of others might be, but for myself, I know that finding gay men and women who game has been a rare experience. Partly because I don't live in a big city, partly because most gays don't throw their time and imagination into gaming (or even sci-fi or fantasy fandom, for that matter). Having a mailing list does make it a lot easier to network with other gay gamers- whether to simply exchange stories and ideas, as a support for those who are having troubles with their orientation vis a vis their gaming group, or even as an opportunity to meet someone special.

While I don't yet belong to the gaymer list on Yahoo (I'll join tonight- my work filters Yahoo out); I do belong to the GamerBear mailing list, and in fact, that was one of the places I met my longtime bf.


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## Dinkeldog (Mar 4, 2003)

Actually, I would say that JD's comments as a Mormon gamer not disruptive to the thread.  I have heard a lot of philosophical if not physical Mormon bashing, so there is some common ground.  There was no judgment involved in what JD said, you know.  

As to what the connection is between finding a group of gay gamers, it's like Angelsboi said.  Sometimes it's just nice to not have to worry about making someone uncomfortable.


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## barsoomcore (Mar 4, 2003)

Just throwing this out there for something to talk about (and if I'm just getting in the way of people connecting, fair enough) -- in my campaign, and I think in every campaign I've ever run, the sexuality of the CHARACTERS was far more important than the sexuality of the PLAYERS.

That is, nobody really cares if whatshername's bi, or whosit's gay or whatever. But is Madame Ganik actually a transexual? Well, now, THAT MATTERS!

Or not, but presumably if it came up in the game it matters.

I have never played a Mormon character.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 4, 2003)

You know, i never thought sex mattered in a game.  But a couple of sessions ago, it actually came into play.

Check my signature line


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## Greppa of Tartwater (Mar 4, 2003)

*Steps Forward*

Gay here too, but I don't think it's a secret to anyone following the story hour I'm co-starring in. *PLUG Light Against the Dark* 

Although I think seasong has already posted about our group in Austin. We're not conventional at all. Everyone is gay or bi except for one lone straight boy...but he's curious, so I guess we're all in the same bucket.


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## The Serge (Mar 4, 2003)

I agree.  I think that Joshua's comments serve as an interesting parallel and could very well be an attempt on his part to understand the reason for our concerns.

As for the listserve and other organizations, there are a number of reasons why these things are around.  As an African American man, I've been a part of quite a few Black organizations because this country is dominated by White Americans.  We are able to discuss matters and concerns that are unique to and largely affect Black professionals.  The same would go for homosexuals, particularly in this industry.

Having a listserve or a place to meet could cover a variety of concerns.  It would give those interested in joining an outlet to discuss matters that are specific or more likely to concern and/or interest gay rpgers.  How to deal with perceptions of homophobia or heterosexism; how to focus role-playing sexuality if that's your thing; how to find fantasy/sci-fi material (integral to D&D) that features homosexual characters.  Let's face it; even in the most shallow games, sexuality is going to be an issue.  In the vast majority of cases (and I have no problem with this as it makes sense), sexuality will be hetero.  But, on occassion, a DM may want to through in something bi or homosexual and it could become an issue.  In one game I played, a cleric our party was dealing with always opened the door to his home covered in a robe and nothing else.  There was always a woman in the house with him.  We knew what was going on, but the characters, focused on other matters, sort of chuckled and let it go.  Such encounters, although not integral to the story, reminded that there is a degree of versimilitude in many D&D games.  What would have happened, though, if every time the characters went to the house, the cleric was holed up with a guy?  I don't think most people would have simply chuckled at it; in fact, I think many reactions (and not necessarily those of my gaming group) would have been poor.  A DM concerned about broadening sexuality in his/her game could find an outlet like the one we're discussing very helpful.

On the other hand, it could serve as a vehicle to meet people you wouldn't otherwise expect to meet.  To date, I've yet to meet another gaymer.  It would be interesting for me to do so for a variety of reasons and one would be for the potential for romance.  Even in the larger gay community, role-playing of this sort is sort of looked down upon (yes, even for drag-queens... an irony, I think).  The last guy I dated (and still talk to) has absolutely no understanding of my peculiar interest in this stuff and it makes it difficult to have a common ground between the two of us (fantasy and all peripheral elements are important to me).  And, even platonic relationships would be nice.  It's kind of hard to discuss gay issues with many straight people, even open-minded folks, because you either run into a degree of discomfort or else you become the poster-boy or girl for gay issues (I already spend enough time being the Black guy as it is).

Those are just some of the concerns such a listserv/group would serve.

Appreciate your questions, Joshua.


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## ColonelHardisson (Mar 4, 2003)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *Joshua - Its hard for gay people to be accepted.  We hear of Gay bashing but i dont recall a baptist or mormon bashing.
> 
> *




I hate to do this, but I wanted to point out that this is not really true. I've run across people who still refer to the Book of Mormon as "the Devil's Book." That's just one example. The point is, without shading into the religious side of it, if one looks closely, one will find that "bashing" of all kinds occurs against just about any group, which makes it important to try to be aware of it beyond one's own particular interest group. Being aware of such things can help all of us find something in common, if you follow my reasoning. Sorry for the hijack.


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## Remathilis (Mar 4, 2003)

My DM is gay, and his boyfriend plays also. 

Never bothered us, even when their PC's were gay.

What bothered us was the sheer number of gay NPC's in his world. Whats a straight PC to do?


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## The Serge (Mar 4, 2003)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> *My DM is gay, and his boyfriend plays also.
> 
> Never bothered us, even when their PC's were gay.
> 
> What bothered us was the sheer number of gay NPC's in his world. Whats a straight PC to do?  *



Frankly, this would be a problem for me as well unless there was a decent (and creative) reason for it.


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## Desdichado (Mar 4, 2003)

Quite right!  While I'm not gay, I'm trying to reach out and be empathetic by comparing the circumstances to the closest parallel from my own life that I can think of.  And by asking the question, I'm not denigrating the purpose of the gaymer list, I'm trying to understand exactly the role it fulfills.  I ask if it is to connect people who intersect both the gamer and the gay community without trying to imply that that purpose isn't "good enough."

And Dinkeldog, you're quite right -- physical harassment of Mormons hasn't happened to my knowledge in this country to any real degree for 100-150 years, although we do have a long collective memory of it.  However, my whole life I've been seen as kinda weird, and I've had some bad experiences with people who had been grossly ill-informed about what it means to be Mormon.  I've seen anti-Mormon literature, and several of the local churches where I grew up even had regular (up to twice a year!) showings of anti-Mormon videos and anti-Mormon guest speakers.  For a long time, a lot of the people I talked to about Mormons seemed to feel that we were some kind of dangerous cult.  While it is satisfying to see those prejudices unravel by not living up to their preconceived notions, in general, I prefer to avoid placing myself in potentially uncomfortable situations.

So, although I'm not trying to say that it's the same as being gay in America, I do believe that there are at least some parallels, and that to some extent I've at least occasionally had similar experiences in relationship to the original question, especially having grown up in the South.

I'm not ashamed of being Mormon; quite the opposite in fact, and I'd gladly discuss it at length with anyone who asks, but I prefer to avoid uncomfortable situations, and find that wearing my Mormonism on my sleeve, or walking around announcing my religious preferences everytime I meet someone to be insensitive and confrontational, so I tend to keep it to myself unless asked.  This translates somewhat into being reticent to even mention it, at times.

So, Argent, sorry to take the thread on a bit of a tangent, but it seems to have sorta run it's course -- it's a slow thread lately, and I think my experience is similar enough that it belongs in the same discussion, at least.


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## Samnell (Mar 4, 2003)

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> And Dinkeldog, you're quite right -- physical harassment of Mormons hasn't happened to my knowledge in this country to any real degree for 100-150 years, although we do have a long collective memory of it.  However, my whole life I've been seen as kinda weird, and I've had some bad experiences with people who had been grossly ill-informed about what it means to be Mormon.  I've seen anti-Mormon literature, and several of the local churches where I grew up even had regular (up to twice a year!) showings of anti-Mormon videos and anti-Mormon guest speakers.  For a long time, a lot of the people I talked to about Mormons seemed to feel that we were some kind of dangerous cult.  While it is satisfying to see those prejudices unravel by not living up to their preconceived notions, in general, I prefer to avoid placing myself in potentially uncomfortable situations.




If you replace the word "Mormon" with "gay" and remove the references to physical harrassment being confined to the past and you've basically got the situation with being gay in smalltown America.



> So, although I'm not trying to say that it's the same as being gay in America, I do believe that there are at least some parallels, and that to some extent I've at least occasionally had similar experiences in relationship to the original question, especially having grown up in the South.




It sounds like that's the case. I expect members of other minorities would have virtually identical experiences.


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## Desdichado (Mar 5, 2003)

But there are, at least, two areas in which being Mormon is easier than being gay, I suspect.  Many Mormons have their family, which is not only supportive, but actively doing the same thing.  In my case, my entire extended family are active, practicing members of the Mormon church, as is my wife's family.

And, we have a built in community almost everywhere we go.  All I have to do is actually go to church, and we've got a bunch of people that are part of the same thing.

Both of those, while not true for every Mormon, are true for most, and neither of those are probably common amongst gay people.

But, yeah, there's some bad stuff too.  A pretty good friend of mine, for instance (actually, now he's sorta family, since he married my wife's cousin) was essentially disowned from his family when he joined the church, and cut off from his financial support (he was in college at the time, so it was quite a blow.)  Without thinking too hard about it, I can think of about half a dozen folks I know who had exactly the same thing happen to them.  I also remember at least twice as a kid having friends that couldn't come over to my house to play because their parents woudln't let them.  So I think the situation at least has _some_ parallels.

Anyway, sorry for the tangent, I'm not trying to get sympathy or anything like that, just trying to understand.


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## Samnell (Mar 5, 2003)

> But there are, at least, two areas in which being Mormon is easier than being gay, I suspect.




I read this and my first thought was "Utah". 



> Many Mormons have their family, which is not only supportive, but actively doing the same thing.




That's true. That's something many of us (myself included) can't claim. I talked to my mother once about coming out to my grandfather. I said I didn't think it would really make any difference because we'd been quite close. She looked at me like I just said she had another head growing out of her butt.



> And, we have a built in community almost everywhere we go.




True, we don't exactly have gay community centers in every town. We do have lists like gaymers, though. 



> But, yeah, there's some bad stuff too. A pretty good friend of mine, for instance (actually, now he's sorta family, since he married my wife's cousin) was essentially disowned from his family when he joined the church, and cut off from his financial support (he was in college at the time, so it was quite a blow.) Without thinking too hard about it, I can think of about half a dozen folks I know who had exactly the same thing happen to them. I also remember at least twice as a kid having friends that couldn't come over to my house to play because their parents woudln't let them. So I think the situation at least has some parallels.




Those are definitely parallel.


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 5, 2003)

I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. I just didn't want the thread to get into a religious debate. I can sympithise with Joshua's situation.


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## Desdichado (Mar 5, 2003)

Argent said:
			
		

> *I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers. I just didn't want the thread to get into a religious debate. I can sympithise with Joshua's situation. *



No prob, I wasn't trying to direct it into a religious discussion per se, so what you said was probably worth saying.  And like I said, I'm not trying to garner "symapthy for my plight" or anything; I'm really alright!    Rather, I'm trying to empathize with your situation, if that makes any sense.


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 5, 2003)

Actually that makes you a better man than many I have met.


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## Urbannen (Mar 5, 2003)

I've just noticed this thread, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents worth - sorry no Mormon references, though.  

For one, I didn't know that there were many gay gamers at all.  My experience gaming as a gay guy is that I always have to restrain myself somewhat in my choices.  I am not out to the group I play as I don't know them well outside of gaming.  I would probably almost always play female characters, except that I think it would not be well-viewed.  I have always identified more with female super-heroes and the like.  I also like cutesy characters like fairies and stupid halflings, even though most people wouldn't necessarily think that when they see me - I'm pretty reserved and conservative-looking.  (Well, at least I think there should always be cutesy characters thrown in any campaign for common/cute relief, like in a lot of animé.  A lot of straight guys don't like that kind of stuff at all.)  I also always get the feeling that some straight gamer guys pick up on the fact I'm gay and are somewhat put off by it at first - but maybe that's just my Asperger's kicking in.  

I would love to learn more about the yahoo gaymer groups.


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## Kesh (Mar 5, 2003)

*My two coppers...*

I happen to be bi, myself. The subject hasn't come up in any of my game groups, but I'd love to play a particular gay character I have envisioned. His orientation wouldn't be something that really comes up much, but it is important to his background & history.

Maybe, if I can find the right group, I'll try playing him.


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## Benben (Mar 5, 2003)

Urbannen said:
			
		

> *I would love to learn more about the yahoo gaymer groups. *




http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gaymers/

I'm a lurker, don't think I've even introduced myself to the list, but the environment is very friendly and welcoming.

Come join us.


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## fusangite (Mar 5, 2003)

In my gaming world, the only young men who are divinely called to serve as Paladins are gay. It's an idea I arrived-at with my longest-term gaming associate (he's played in all of my games, and I in his since 1987) who is gay. He's independently written some fabulously funny documents on what it means to "be a Paladin" -- in a totally allusive medieval variant of modern office-speak so as to never directly state anything about Paladin sexuality. 

Anyway, I have two gay players in the campaign I'm running right now; I'd certainly be interested in any ideas on any other ways of integrating homosexuality into the fantasy genre.

Looking at the posts from last year in this thread, I also can't resist remarking that from 1997-2002, I ran two Mormon-themed campaigns, one set in North AMerican in 1237, the other in 1990.


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## tleilaxu (Mar 5, 2003)

one of the members of my group is gay


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## tleilaxu (Mar 5, 2003)

Angelsboi said:
			
		

> *We hear of Gay bashing but i dont recall a baptist or mormon bashing.
> *




i've got plenty of material if you are interested....  


_(editted in magical smiley)_


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 5, 2003)

What are the feeling of those of us on the East Coast meeting some time. I live in Philly and would be happy to accomodate people for an overnight visit. or we could meet in NYC or DC. any thoughts?


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## lord irial (Mar 5, 2003)

*Re: My two coppers...*



			
				Kesh said:
			
		

> *I happen to be bi, myself. The subject hasn't come up in any of my game groups, but I'd love to play a particular gay character I have envisioned. His orientation wouldn't be something that really comes up much, but it is important to his background & history.
> 
> Maybe, if I can find the right group, I'll try playing him. *



I know a couple of gay gamers in Anchorage, Kesh, having lived there myself for a couple years (and I and my gaming bf plan on moving back in a few years- to stay, this time). PM me, and I'll try to come up with their contact info.


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## lord irial (Mar 5, 2003)

fusangite said:
			
		

> *Anyway, I have two gay players in the campaign I'm running right now; I'd certainly be interested in any ideas on any other ways of integrating homosexuality into the fantasy genre.*



One of my gay friends in San Francisco ran a super-hero game where the virus that caused mutations, and thus super-powers, affected only those who were genetically inclined to be gay. Thus, all super-heroes and super-villains were gay, bi, or lesbian (though of course, some were in bitter denial - angst makes for better villainy).


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## Coreyartus (Mar 5, 2003)

I would echo the sentiments of some of the earlier posters about the gaymers list on Yahoo.  This is the description of what it is from the home page:


If you’ve often wondered whether you’re the only G/L/Bi/Tv/Tr interested in roleplaying or other entertainment-style games, we’re here to tell you you aren’t alone. “Gaymers” is a non-political roundtable for queer folks and their supporters who’re into gaming. This includes anyone with interests in collectable card games like Magic or Pokemon, roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons, Vampire or Star Trek, board games like Roborally or Kill Dr. Lucky, or even strategy games including Axis and Allies. Heck, we’ll even throw in electronic games from consoles to computers just to get everyone involved. Just one warning, however: We will not tolerate gay-bashing or homophobic remarks. That’s a one-strike-and-you’re-outta-here rule.__ Otherwise, join in, keep your comments civil and friendly and get to know your brothers and sisters with the same interests as yourself. 


I, for one, have found the list fantastically helpful.  For example, I now know what products and companies are more gay-friendly than others, and can throw my monetary support towards those companies not afraid to provide product that includes my interests.  I know what books have been release recently that feature gay characters, and I know of websites that can be referred to for pages and pages of gay-oriented fantasy and horror literature.  I know that there are industry professionals that take a sincere interest in my opinions on how to reach out to the gay consumer, because they've joined our list and simply asked us.  I know that there are gay industry insiders with their own companies, creating product that speaks to us inclusively.

The list is a way of making sure word-of-mouth spreads, and that we can support those people who support us.  It's a validation that yes, others feel the same way you do, and your aren't alone.  It's a help guide for personal interaction with your gaming group, as well as a connection to other gaymers that might be looking for a gaming group to play with.  The list is honest, unpretentious, non-flaming (ironically), generous, and sincere.

This is sounding like an unabashed plug for the list (like we win a prize for the most members?  sheesh....), but so what.  If anyone else has any gay-oriented websites they'd like to mention, go for it.  It's important that we share as much as we can, so we never have to feel isolated again.

Just my two cents!

--Coreyartus


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## sensate (Mar 5, 2003)

I am surprised to see so many gay and bi players, I am use to being the only one in my group.  I was wondering what types of characters gay and bi people chose to play and whether or not they think their S0 has anything to do with their choices.


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 5, 2003)

Are any of you playing a gay/ lesbian/ trans/bi character now?
Bolo is gay.


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## The Serge (Mar 5, 2003)

sensate said:
			
		

> *I am surprised to see so many gay and bi players, I am use to being the only one in my group.  I was wondering what types of characters gay and bi people chose to play and whether or not they think their S0 has anything to do with their choices. *



I can say that I've never played a gay character or a straight character.  Indeed, all of my PCs have been virtually asexual.

Now, when I DM, I feel no problem with playing a character of any variety of SO.  I think this is because, while the NPCs are important, I don't have the same commitment to them as I do with a PC.  They are one of hundreds that I have to roleplay rather than one character.

As for my PCs, they tend to be flamboyant, stylish, and extremely cultured (and generally rather... bi***y).... so I suppose they fit into one of the few stereotypes about homosexual men.  The peopole with whom I tend to game and I don't really discuss my sexuality, so I suppose that's why I'm inclined to play out neutered characters.  I've never played a female PC (never felt the need nor the inclination to do so) and likely never will.


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## Angelsboi (Mar 5, 2003)

I play in an oathbound campaign.  My charatcer was a guy named Folken who was an air shugenja (on his way to becoming a Void Disciple) and he and the party's monk were lovers.  Well the group came from Rokugan and by his mistake, the party geisha died.

Knowing it was his mistake, he had her ressurected.

But that had a flaw.  You see, in Rokugan, they dont have spells like that.  So he got her brought back to life and had to set the balance.  He told his lover good bye and commited Seppeku.  It was quite sad.

Now im playing Drake Lacarde, a selfish 1/2 black dragon who doesnt care.  He is a Fighter 4/Sorcererer 1 who deals in acid.  He has a dracon face tattooed on his back and on his hips are dragon claws (to quote the players, grip holds).

He is much like bad Faith from Buffy and is all about fun fun fun.

Its quite a difference from the previous character


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## lord irial (Mar 5, 2003)

Argent said:
			
		

> *Are any of you playing a gay/ lesbian/ trans/bi character now? *



I have a gay character in the Buffy RPG that my bf is running, and currently making up a gay PC for Mutants and Masterminds. I've played several gay characters in the past, as well as straight female characters and straight male characters. My gay PC's tend to be pretty unflamboyant and low-key, though some of them have tended to the mega-butch.


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## WizarDru (Mar 5, 2003)

Argent said:
			
		

> *Are any of you playing a gay/ lesbian/ trans/bi character now?
> Bolo is gay. *





Gay?  Hell, he's downright jovial! 


It's funny, though, my current game is the first one I've had that's actually had romantic liasons between PCs and NPCs.  I've had them occur when they were essentially a pre-concieved concept, and I've had family affiliations, but wth my current game, it's different.  Like The Serge, though, most PCs in my games are fairly non-sexual.  The question so rarely even comes up, that it usually isn't an issue. 

Unless, of course, it was to torture a character needlessly.  Then I'd do it.  Like make Bolo a descendant of an ancient halfing Druid, and have him forced into an arranged, loveless marriage expressly for the purpose of carrying on the line, regardless of his personal sexual orientation or prerference of either member of the arrangment.  

But I would never do that.   

(of course, Bolo's backstory is just as messy, but that's another story.  Case in point:

Bolo:  "I am, in fact, gay."
Scorch: "Feh.  You are, in fact, in my reading light.  Kindly move."
Bolo:  "I also have a son."
Scorch: "Yes, well I...WHAT?!"

And so on.


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## mythago (Mar 5, 2003)

> Bolo: "I also have a son."




Priscilla, Queen of the Underdark? 

I'd say a very large percentage of the people in my gaming circle are gay or bi. Usually the sexual orientation of the PCs themselves doesn't come up much, though.


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 5, 2003)

mythago said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Priscilla, Queen of the Underdark?
> 
> I'd say a very large percentage of the people in my gaming circle are gay or bi. Usually the sexual orientation of the PCs themselves doesn't come up much, though. *



Evil bch.


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## mythago (Mar 6, 2003)

You say that like it's a bad thing!


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## Hygric (Mar 6, 2003)

Well, everyone else is, so I may as well to!

Hi, I'm Hygric, a bi pagan gamer.

Interestingly enough, whoever it was that commented that gamer is the only one that you pause before mentioning, me to!

It seems to me as though being a gamer is by far worse a stigma than being either bi or pagan.  Heck, in most of the pagan groups I have met, you wouldn't mention that you were a gamer on fear of complete ostracism.  Something about "living in a fantasy world" etc etc.

At work etc as well I am far more comfortable talking about my religion or sexuality than my hobby.  Maybe because religion and sexuality have an automatic "this is serious" lable attached to them while hobbies don't have that lable.  Am I making any sense whatsoever?

By the way, if Sulimo or Thresher reads this and any of it comes as a shock to you, well, you had to find out eventually that I am... a GAMER!!!   

Does anyone know of a pagan gamer list?  If not, I might start one as there seem to be one or two of us around.


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## Uzumaki (Mar 6, 2003)

I'm not gay or straight or bi. I am...(drumroll, please)

...


...


...


...


Asexual. 

That's right. I can split myself in two. Which is good, because I have no sexual attraction toward any gender or person. The very idea revolts me, and I consider myself one of the Chosen Chosen to play D&D and also not have any base, irrational desires. Except to, uh, play D&D.

Anyway, I've played gay(male) characters and straight (male and female) characters. Their sexuality doesn't really come up much, barring the occansional jibe, but it's a consideration when we want our characters to start a family or whatnot. We are all straight, 18-22.


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## tleilaxu (Mar 6, 2003)

is it against the rules to start a thread about paganism entitled "paganism: the hows and whys and whats, answering questions of the mystified"?


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## Argent Silvermage (Mar 6, 2003)

tleilaxu said:
			
		

> *is it against the rules to start a thread about paganism entitled "paganism: the hows and whys and whats, answering questions of the mystified"? *



I think that would be a great Idea. I'm a Celtic shaman myself and would love to participate in that thread. Just remember to put a "no flames" notice in the beginning.
One cool thing is it may give some people an Idea on how to play a realistic Druid.


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## Hygric (Mar 6, 2003)

Tlielaxu: are you a pagan as well?

There definately seems to be more than one of us, so I think we could do with a mailing list.  Would a mod mind telling me if it would be wrong to advertise for an email list on here?

As for explaining what a "real" druid is, well, that just opens a whole can of worms.  Any of you been on a CR list lately?

Argent: if we start an email list, we could talk about that until the kews come home.  Plus  I could expound on my theory about how GM'ing is an expression of the bardic craft.  

Anyone interested in getting a pagan gamer email list off the ground, give me an email at kshillin@bigpond.net.au


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## Piratecat (Mar 6, 2003)

tleilaxu said:
			
		

> *is it against the rules to start a thread about paganism entitled "paganism: the hows and whys and whats, answering questions of the mystified"? *




That would fall under the "religion" rule, so wouldn't be appropriate. Sorry about that. A thread about pagan themes in gaming might be more appropriate, although you'd have to use good judgment (like you usually do, of course.)


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## Angelsboi (Mar 6, 2003)

Its a religious topic.  It would get shiuit down.  trust me on this.  I know


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## Godofredo (Mar 6, 2003)

...Care to put that into English for the rest of the class?  --Dinkeldog

Godo


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## fusangite (Mar 7, 2003)

Thanks Irial for your response. I am hoping that others will come forward with ideas on integrating homosexuality into the medieval high fantasy social structures.


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## tleilaxu (Mar 7, 2003)

Hygric said:
			
		

> *Tlielaxu: are you a pagan as well?*



*

not even a little bit. i would be the mystified in the suggested thread title. but nevermind. i agree that this is a can of worms and i shouldn't have even brought it up




			That would fall under the "religion" rule, so wouldn't be appropriate. Sorry about that. A thread about pagan themes in gaming might be more appropriate, although you'd have to use good judgment (like you usually do, of course.)
		
Click to expand...



The key word here being usually, which is a very polite way of saying "not always" *


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## lord irial (Mar 7, 2003)

fusangite said:
			
		

> *Thanks Irial for your response. I am hoping that others will come forward with ideas on integrating homosexuality into the medieval high fantasy social structures. *



Well, there are a couple ways to make alternate sexuality integral to a fantasy campaign. I've used some of these methods, feel free to steal them or use them as springboards for ideas.

1) Dwarf men outnumber their women by two-to-one because there are actually three genders of dwarves: female, alpha-male and beta-male. It takes all three to breed, and couples will often form before seeking out a compatable third. 

2) Different types of magic rely on different predispositions. Divine magic is the domain of gays and lesbians; Arcane magic belongs to those who are left-handed; red-heads are naturally gifted to some degree with psionics. (this works better in a system where these types of magic or more equal in power, such as Rolemaster.)

3) The local Wizards guild (or even a secular Order of Knights) only recruits those of gay or bisexual inclinations. Their rituals and initiations demand that their members be carnally unknown by the opposite gender. Similarly, a Mercenary band is formed of gay couples, because couples fighting side by side will fight more ferociously.


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## Joseph Elric Smith (Mar 31, 2003)

Well My wife plays now, she wasn't a role player before we got married. one of our members wife is a part time player, another players wife when not on deployment plays, and back in my home town I used to play hero games with a couple of anime superhero fan girls who where lesbians.
ken


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## Synicism (Mar 31, 2003)

Maxboy said:
			
		

> *BTW: i wonder if Gay Rpgers play Gay characters in there
> games? I have never played a gay character in DND*




I have a fairly large group that does have a fair share of gay and bisexual players. Some of them do play gay characters, others don't.


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## frankthedm (Mar 31, 2003)

It seems a lot of the "Bear"  type are also gamers.


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## Joseph Elric Smith (Mar 31, 2003)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> *It seems a lot of the "Bear"  type are also gamers. *



Of course because body hair is a sign of superior intellect. the more hair you have on your body the smarter and more talented you are. 
Ken
No I wont shave my back


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## Merlion (Apr 1, 2003)

Jeez I leave for 2 bleeping days and all sorts of *stuff* happens.  Anyway I of course have to weigh in here.
  I am a gay non-orthodox Christian gamer (and, I am the Walrus but thats another story)  
   The first meaningful gaming group I was in was formed by me and my b/f and consisted at first of a straight DM, me and my b/f and our roomate and his b/f. The other group was basicaly the same people with a different DM.
   Now as to me and my assorted abnormalities...I dont think being gay has caused me to feel a need to toe the line more strongly in other areas, at least not that I know of. Especialy for the past few years I have adopted an attitude of following my heart....and it often leads me in ways that many would find unconventional. I do or dont do things based entirly on my view of them either in terms of right and wrong with really important issues, or taste for less important ones.
  I am "out" sexualy and gaming wise...and I must admit I cant relate to those who say they are super open about being gay but not about being a gamer. not putting anyone down or saying its not valid but its much easier for me to tell someone I game than it is to tell them I'm gay. Of course I've never really gotten negative reactions to my gaming as such. For the past year or two I've mainly associated with my friends and close aquatininces(who are gamers) and till last  Sept customers and coworkers at work...but since I worked at a gamestore my being a gamer was in fact as assest. of course I some times ran into customers who had a negative view of RPGs and CCGs and such but that was rare.


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## Nightstorm (Apr 1, 2003)

*The Prince of Cincinnati*

This thread is soooo long. Not even certain what it's about anymore. SO let me make my post about me. ) I wa s please to see the gaymers site having made one of my own on yahoo. 

I'm gay.
I've been role playing since I was about 10 or 11. I'm 35 now.

Up until about three years ago most of my playing experiences have been with all straight groups. 

I put out flyers in gay publications and places for players and got them. Now Im in a game that has three gay men and three straight men. It's interesting to say the least. 

Before I came out I played women characters. After I came out my characters are all gay. Go figure. 

My "signiture" character is Azazel. Azazel is a gay tiefling 19 years of age. He's the son of Iuz, but rebukes his father and evil ways. {he's chaotic Neutral} .


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## Argent Silvermage (Apr 1, 2003)

Joseph Elric Smith said:
			
		

> *
> Of course because body hair is a sign of superior intellect. the more hair you have on your body the smarter and more talented you are.
> Ken
> No I wont shave my back  *



Shave your back? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Argent takes all the sharp instruments away from JES.) There there, Good bear.


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## Drub (May 1, 2011)

*D&d*

Me and my partner have recently started playing 2nd edition AD&D on Sundays in the College Area in San Diego.

He's playing a half-elven female thief and I'm playing a human male wizard as well as DMing. It's pretty fun, but it would be more fun if we had other friendly (gay or not) players to join in.


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## Achan hiArusa (May 1, 2011)

Let's see:

I have gamed with a lot of bisexual, asexual, and homosexual gamers as well as, of course, heterosexual gamers (I have used real first names, doubting that anyone will know them, if you do, then don't out them, but if you know where the first two are, let me know by PM, I haven't heard from them in years):

James, one of the best DMs I had in college, was a homosexual male, theater major, who was five years older than I was.  He was in the SCA and a guild leader.  He preferred high level first/second edition AD&D games where we were so powerful that we didn't have to have much to do with mechanics.  But he was one of the few people I knew who could play a Malkavian without being kooky.  He came out in college long before I got there after a relationship that was a mutual breakup with a really cool girl that everyone had a crush on.

Kevin was also in that gaming group and just liked playing AD&D, he was a physics minor and a history major, and James's roomate.  Both were a wonderfully catty pair that taught me how to be a better DM and how to be catty myself.  He had a few relationships with women, but one day decided to count people on the street to determine if he was more attracted to men than women and he realized he was gay.  His parents were deep southern baptists and came to town once a week to take him to dinner and try to make him come back to the light.  He just laughed them off and took their food.

Brad was pretty much a militant gay and came into our group and felt that he had something to prove, even though we already had two gay guys in our group.  He was a shy person before he came out of the closet and became very extroverted afterwards especially since his parents told him to never come back home.  He wasn't a big fan of D&D and preferred White Wolf games, especially Vampire and Werewolf.

Flounder was from Austin and was a gay guy, but no one knew.  Not that he hid it, but he didn't fit the stereotypes.  He broke the hearts of half the campus when he told people (mostly girls, but not all).  He liked playing D&D mainly and didn't really get involved with my White Wolf games.

Mike and William experimented with homosexuality but realized it wasn't for them.  Either of them would pretty much play any game put in front of them as long as they could just get into combat.

Aaron and Max are guys I like to say are fashionably bisexual.  They would do it if it were available and they were interested, but all I've ever seen them with were women (a lot of them for Aaron and a few with years between them for Max).

Willie was a gay guy who was attacked in school for being gay (but knowing him he egged it on) and was very dependent on his parents.  He has a permanent boyfriend now.  He preferred World of Darkness games and was a very disruptive player who would go in his own direction and as a Storyteller would push us down routes that a lot of us found distasteful.

Jeff was in my games in graduate school and ran a vampire game.  He is acts rich and effete and doesn't really care if people find out as long as he is not outed.  He is attractive, but for him women are just accessories.  He says he was a real player in high school, but knew he was gay when he realized he didn't have feeling for any of the girls he slept with.

Lisa was an asexual that I for a brief amount of time convinced her to have a relationship with me.  She was a horrible, horrible power gamer and would make gamebreaking characters but would reign them in enough to keep the game going.  She kept detailed game folders of every character.

Jessie is truly bisexual.  She just dates whoever she is interested in.  She likes to play any game as long as someone else maths for her.  Her favorite games are White Wolf games and Dread.

Lessa is an asexual slowly morphing into a lesbian and she is a very active roleplayer making hyperkinetic characters.  She prefers White Wolf games.

Mel, though I've never gamed with him is a gamer playing mostly 1st edition D&D who is a ftm homosexual.

Tracy and Sammi were a pair of mtf transexuals who were gamers.  Tracy died quickly of cancer a few years ago.  Both played WoW, but Sammi had been a D&D player first and got Tracy into the hobby.


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## NewJeffCT (May 1, 2011)

Wow, 2003 to 2011.  That is some amazing thread necromancy.  Almost needing True Resurrection there because it's almost been 10 years.

Nobody in my current group is gay.  However, I do know two active gay gamers.  One is also disabled, so he does not get to game much anymore.  I also know an African American lesbian woman who is also an avid gamer (she's even dressed up as a drow priestess for Halloween...).  AFAIK, their sexuality is not an issue in gaming and has not been an issue.  She has had issues in online gaming because she is black, though  -  people making racist comments because they assume she is white.


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## the Jester (May 1, 2011)

Oh, I've had tons of gay and/or bi players in my group (and played in two or three campaigns with a gay or bi dm).

My current group includes a gay guy and a bi guy; I believe the rest identify as straight.


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## wingsandsword (May 1, 2011)

Yeah, high level Thread Necromancy going on here.  8 years, that's dang near Epic Level Thread Necromancy.

I've gamed with a number of LBGT players in my 13 years of gaming:

Back in college I played in several campaigns run by, and ran a few campaigns for, a bisexual transwoman.  

I know of one more-or-less openly bisexual man that played occasionally in some games I ran in college, and two pretty openly bisexual women have played in some of my games over the years.

If you include people that "experimented" and had dalliances with the same sex but still self-identify as heterosexual, or that are closeted and I know about as a good friend there are a few others.

In my current game there is an openly gay man as one of the players.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 2, 2011)

I know this is a necroed thread, but:



> Do any of you know any gay men or women playing D&D?




Despite playing 34 years in the hobby, I've only known 1 guy who was out...and he enjoyed playing up the stereotypes with the occasional "Girlfriend!", choruses from "Its Raining Men" and so forth.  His last PC in my group was a 1/2E female.

And he was REALLY cool to game with.

Wherever you are, Troy, good gaming to you!


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## jonesy (May 2, 2011)

More like fabulous thread necromancy. Reading through this thread makes me feel warm inside. EN World is nice. 


Hi there. I'm bi. I'm in love with a girl who knows. I don't know if it affects the way I play, but I do and have played all sorts of genders.

We used to have a gay player in our group, but s/he became a woman and went back to Estonia. He was cool. I hear she owns a bar now. When he played he used to pick characters with vague sexualities. An ogre in womens clothing. Was it a man? Was it a woman? Who knows. It was an ogre. It ate the party halfling. That was fun. 

We also currently have a married lesbian couple in our group. They'll play any sort of characters.



barsoomcore said:


> Just throwing this out there for something to talk about (and if I'm just getting in the way of people connecting, fair enough) -- in my campaign, and I think in every campaign I've ever run, the sexuality of the CHARACTERS was far more important than the sexuality of the PLAYERS.
> 
> That is, nobody really cares if whatshername's bi, or whosit's gay or whatever. But is Madame Ganik actually a transexual? Well, now, THAT MATTERS!



Ok. Now I just have to know. Was she transexual or not?


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## NewJeffCT (May 2, 2011)

Drub said:


> Me and my partner have recently started playing 2nd edition AD&D on Sundays in the College Area in San Diego.
> 
> He's playing a half-elven female thief and I'm playing a human male wizard as well as DMing. It's pretty fun, but it would be more fun if we had other friendly (gay or not) players to join in.




I'm 3,000 miles away from San Diego, but there are ways to search for local gamers.  I believe enworld itself has a gamers seeking gamers tool.  There is also penandpapergames.com as well.  I've used their tool to good success in the past.  I don't know if WotC still has a forum for it or not?


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## Drub (May 2, 2011)

Thanks for the tips! I've also posted a MeetUp and I'm crossing my fingers. In any case, it's a great excuse to be social and meet new people.


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## DumbPaladin (May 2, 2011)

Interesting thread necromancy.

In 2002, I was only a couple of years past leaving my all-gay D&D group.  The DM and his boyfriend, and four other guys (one left pretty early on), plus me.  I was allowed in even though I was "only" bisexual.

It was a very interesting experience.  To be honest, the only difference from my current D&D group -- which consists of 3 bisexual people, 4 heterosexuals, and no one identifying as gay/straight -- was in the occasional OOC conversation topics.

In game, there were very few indications of the sexuality of the members: most of the characters did not pursue relationships of any kind.  Looking back on it, it surprises me how ... well, "straight" people played everything, to use a double entendre.


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## erf_beto (May 2, 2011)

I'm gay and I DM and played with straight women and bissexual men in college (other people came and went, but that was our regular group). We did mostly Vampire and Mage, with the occasional D&D one-shot (we tried a campaign, but it never went far).

We started playing together before we became best friends, and we were all "in the closet" back then. Sexuality wasn't a taboo, we were just assexual I guess. One of the girl's characters (male) and mine (female) started a relantionship in a Vampire game that lasted for a couple of years. 

On our last Vampire campaign, I actually rolled up a gay character "just to see how people would react". His sexuality came up in game in very subtle ways, and I had fantastic character moments with him.  It was a very rewarding experience for me.

I can only speak for myself, but roleplaying actually helped me through the whole acceptance phase and coming out - and I'm not saying that because I played females and gay characters.


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## olshanski (May 2, 2011)

I think the original premise is entirely flawed and someones orientation has little to nothing to do with what games they play... or even if it did have anything to do with choice of games, the idea of gay people somehow bucking convention by roleplaying just as their sexuality isn't standard "straight" is also pretty ridiculous.

For example, I would guess that there are about a similar ratio of gay people playing RPGs, as there are gay people playing tabletop games, or gay people playing poker, or gay people playing Bridge.

In fact, I know more gay bridge players than roleplayers, and if you want to follow the original thesis, it wouldn't fly at all, because bridge is ALL ABOUT FOLLOWING CONVENTIONS.  In fact, if you don't follow a standard conventon in bridge, you have to alert the other players and let them know how you are not following standard conventions.  In tournaments, players are required to fill out a special card explaining what conventions they follow.  

Does that have anything at all to do with sexuality?  I guess about as much as killing orcs and stealing treasure does.


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## pawsplay (May 2, 2011)

One of the groups I was in disbanded with the infamous, "It's not me that's weird, it's you!" speech, when the sole (supposedly) heterosexual player went on a seemingly unprompted rant about how no one should make her feel weird for being straight and monogamous, and everyone was all like, "Really, G., it's cool, no one judges, but it seriously isn't cool that you just told everyone they're weird."

Yeah... that was our second to last session as a group.


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## Dragonbait (May 2, 2011)

I've had several gay players in my games. They all played d20 games, mostly D&D.

I have a couple players that I _think_ are bisexual in my current group, but I don't think that's within the scope of this thread.


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## Drub (May 3, 2011)

*That's too bad*



pawsplay said:


> One of the groups I was in disbanded with the infamous, "It's not me that's weird, it's you!" speech, when the sole (supposedly) heterosexual player went on a seemingly unprompted rant about how no one should make her feel weird for being straight and monogamous, and everyone was all like, "Really, G., it's cool, no one judges, but it seriously isn't cool that you just told everyone they're weird."
> 
> Yeah... that was our second to last session as a group.




This is exactly the kind of situation I want to avoid: weird negativity during something that should be fun and everyone's playing and being social and making new friends. Besides all that, I'd be inviting people into my own home. The last thing I want to do is give somebody an invite only to find out they are uncomfortable, disagreeable, or potentially unstable when all I want to do is have fun. IMHO, Nipping that stuff in the bud right off the bat is the best way to not even having to deal with that crapola. If I wanted to feel bad about something, I'd watch the news or hit myself in the face with a hammer.


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## Dice4Hire (May 3, 2011)

More thread necromancy. And again, it is a winner of a potentially controversial topic. 

My thoughts on this topic are none at all. I cannot see how being gay, straight or whatever variation thereof makes a bit of difference in an RPG. Any problems are what the players or DM themselves bring to the table.


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## SoulsFury (May 4, 2011)

It is interesting this thread got brought back up. I saw it tonight and something seemed familiar about it. Then I realized I remember seeing it back in the day. I was 18 in '02 and was like 'gays are real?' Now at 27, I have gamed with several gays, have been to the local gay club and have several gay friends. I don't think sexual preference changes the game in any way. I think being comfortable with your gaming group is all that matters. It is always awkward for me to game with new people, gay or straight, for several sessions. To me, gaming is something done among friends, not something done amongst strangers. That's just me though.


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## Miar (May 4, 2011)

I just popped through and noticed this thread and thought I'd throw in a  quick link.  There is a blog over on boardgamegeek about being a gay  gamer that might be of interest.  It's at The Bored Gaymer | BoardGameGeek

He talks about rpgs as well as board games.


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## AGamerInTheCloset (May 4, 2011)

(( I'm posting this post on an *alias*.  And I apologize to the site administrators for doing so, my reasons however should be both clear and obvious by the name I choose for the alias. )) 

I'm a gamer, and I am *a homosexual male.*  I also happen to live in the *bible belt* of America where neither is appreciated and I have been warned of 'going to Hell' for both of these things.  Unfortunately it is also not physically safe for me to be open about my sexuality where I live.  

Bashing happens, I've seen them, and the lack of response or care they receive where I live.

I am extremely *open about my gaming hobby*.  I'm rather *proud *of it!  I go to all the cons and I'm actually a *semi public individual in the gaming industry*.  Definitely not an 'A' lister,_ heck I'm lucky if I'm a 'C' lister._  ( I know it is unlikely that anyone would recognize who I am from what I've told / tell you in this post, but please, I ask those individuals who may to not post guessing my identity. )

*I probably even self identify more as a gamer than I do as a homosexual.*  Gaming is what I *choose *to do, after all.  The fact that it is also the aspect of my life I do not have to hide probably contributes to it quite a bit.

I don't think I will ever come out to my gaming friends simply because they are my oldest friends.  *I've known most of them for the better part of a decade and a half.*  And they know me as the nice guy GM who's a little awkward.  I don't really want to risk loosing my game group simply for being 'out.'

But then again, I'm not 'out' at all. * I lack the courage to be an open homosexual, and I respect those that have it.*


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## steeldragons (May 4, 2011)

AGamerInTheCloset said:


> (( I'm posting this post on an *alias*.  And I apologize to the site administrators for doing so, my reasons however should be both clear and obvious by the name I choose for the alias. ))
> 
> I'm a gamer, and I am *a homosexual male.*  I also happen to live in the *bible belt* of America where neither is appreciated and I have been warned of 'going to Hell' for both of these things.  Unfortunately it is also not physically safe for me to be open about my sexuality where I live.
> 
> ...




First, I highly recommend moving to live in a place you don't feel physically threatened on a daily basis. That can't be a comfortable way to live.

Second, to your "oldest friends", if they really have known you for a long time and really* are *your friends, they won't (or shouldn't) care. If they do, then they're just another close-minded asshat who you just happen to have known for a long time and thought (mistakenly) was "a friend"...that's their problem, not yours.
_
EDIT: I don't mean to sound overly callous or nonchalant about it. Loosing people you thought of as "friends" this way sucks. It does. But it happens. You move on.
_
New friends (yes, even gaming friends) come and go. That's just life.

Whether it is fear of "losing your gaming group" or fear of "being the next Matthew Shepherd"..no one should have to live in fear on a daily basis.

Guess that's all I have on that.

But, anyway, welcome to the boards and happy gaming (and move somewhere less...suffocating).

--Steel Dragons


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## Vicar In A Tutu (May 4, 2011)

Angelsboi said:


> I play in an oathbound campaign.  My charatcer was a guy named Folken who was an air shugenja (on his way to becoming a Void Disciple) and he and the party's monk were lovers.  Well the group came from Rokugan and by his mistake, the party geisha died.
> 
> Knowing it was his mistake, he had her ressurected.
> 
> ...



When I started reading this thread, I didn't notice that it was so old. Until I saw a post by Angelsboi. I've been with ENWorld since the begining (lurking since 1999), and I recall Angelsboi as one of the regular posters. Although I didn't have any connections to him, beyond simply lurking and reading some of his posts, I was stunned when he posted that he was terminally ill. I think it was around 2004 or 2005. I don't remember exactly when he died, but I think it was a friend that posted the news of his death here on ENWorld. 

It was such a strange feeling seeing his name followed by this short and yet incredibly poignant piece of information: _has no status_.


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## Achan hiArusa (May 5, 2011)

AGamerInTheCloset said:


> (( I'm posting this post on an *alias*.  And I apologize to the site administrators for doing so, my reasons however should be both clear and obvious by the name I choose for the alias. ))
> 
> I'm a gamer, and I am *a homosexual male.*  I also happen to live in the *bible belt* of America where neither is appreciated and I have been warned of 'going to Hell' for both of these things.  Unfortunately it is also not physically safe for me to be open about my sexuality where I live.
> 
> ...





Do they make a lot of gay jokes or involve themselves in gay bashing?  Are they really religiously conservative (sorry but it is an indicator)?  These would be signs that they have problems.  But as a friend of ours I gamed with came out of the closet our chorus of reply was "And this is a surprise, how?"


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## TarionzCousin (May 5, 2011)

I don't care if another gamer is gay, bi, straight, or whatever. But I sure could use a few more Drama Queens in my games.


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## Dannyalcatraz (May 5, 2011)

Offer to run some _Wraethu RPG_ and see what you get.


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## SoulsFury (May 5, 2011)

Achan hiArusa said:


> Do they make a lot of gay jokes or involve themselves in gay bashing?  Are they really religiously conservative (sorry but it is an indicator)?  These would be signs that they have problems.  But as a friend of ours I gamed with came out of the closet our chorus of reply was "And this is a surprise, how?"




This is what I was thinking. I have a friend who recently came out. Everyone was like, "We knew a long time ago." I am willing to bet inthecloset isn't as in the closet as he thinks. I sincerely hope he finds the strength to be himself in public. I can't imagine where he lives, works, and frequents on a daily basis that he is in fear of his sexuality. Every city I have visited in the Southeast (bible belt as he refers to it) has tons of openly gay individuals. Good luck inthecloset!


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## pawsplay (May 5, 2011)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Offer to run some _Wraethu RPG_ and see what you get.




The roleplaying you want, you can't get; the roleplaying you can get, you don't want.


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## AGamerInTheCloset (May 5, 2011)

SoulsFury said:


> This is what I was thinking. I have a friend who recently came out. Everyone was like, "We knew a long time ago." I am willing to bet inthecloset isn't as in the closet as he thinks. I sincerely hope he finds the strength to be himself in public. I can't imagine where he lives, works, and frequents on a daily basis that he is in fear of his sexuality. Every city I have visited in the Southeast (bible belt as he refers to it) has tons of openly gay individuals. Good luck inthecloset!




I appreciate the well wishes, honestly.

If I lived in one of the cities, I wouldn't be nearly as afraid.  *There are active gay communities* there as little as *2 hours drive away* from where I sit at the moment.

But I live in the countryside, in a very small mountain town surrounded by other very small mountain towns and all of them isolated.  Diversity simply doesn't exist here, and hasn't for as long as anyone knows.  And generational poverty doesn't help at all, either.  Education is not only undervalued, but there is actually a sentiment of *anti-intellectualism.*

Homophobic jokes are the norm, including those that express violence, and including my friends and family.

I have no idea how well built my closet is, I think its rather sound.  *Hell, I think being a gamer helps make it stronger.*  I'm so obviously a *geek *and *gamer *that I feel it *supercedes any other indentifiers* I might get.


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## ShadowDenizen (May 5, 2011)

*Raises hand*.

Gay gamer in the Boston area here.
I play in a 4E game, a 3.5/PF game, and a Conan game.  (Each group averages ~8 people, and each has at least one other gay person in it besides me [except for Conan, which only has 3 players and a DM.])

And I belong to several other groups that get together for social gatherings, board-gaming, book-clubs, etc.

I've been very fortunate in my adult life (at least with regards to gaming!!)  My sexual orienation has been a non-issue thus far.



> I probably even self identify more as a gamer than I do as a homosexual. Gaming is what I choose to do, after all. The fact that it is also the aspect of my life I do not have to hide probably contributes to it quite a bit.




I think every small bit contributes to the greater whole.  I'm as much of a gamer as I am a homosexual, or a reader, or a cinephile.  I would be a vastly different person if you took away one element of that.

But my best wishes go to those who are not fortunate enough to be themselves, and are forced to deny themselves in order to "fit in".   But one day, things WILL be better. (And who knows? There may be other people in your community that are in the same position you are!)


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## Winterthorn (May 5, 2011)

*Raises hand* too 

Middle-aged gay gamer up here in Ottawa, Canada.  I usually a DM/GM for RPGs, although I enjoy board games and strategy PC games too.

I got into gaming at 16-17, and started coming out of the closet at 30.  While my folks know of my sexuality now, I keep my gaming interests out their sight as they don't really "get" anything beyond Scrabble and Monopoly. I've had pagan friends who knew I was gay, and co-workers too.  But I am basically a closeted gamer...  I know the gay community is not the friendliest toward gamers, in the sense that gamers are perceived as nerds and nerds are not perceived as sexy.  The last thing I'd admit to another gay man I'm dating is my interest in gaming -- and since I'm in my mid-40's, I find myself self-conscious about gaming interests as in "aren't I too old?".

Yeah, so life has it's twists and turns...  

I especially welcome friend requests here from queer members -- in fact some kind of "Gaymers Caucus", as a social network here at EN World, would be nifty if that were possible 

[MENTION=6676040]AGamerInTheCloset[/MENTION]: I wish you strength given your situation. I don't know how old you are, but as you get older, pressure is going build on you to find a mate for hetero marriage, and in a small town that pressure is almost inevitable and potentially fierce.  I urge you to be prepared for this, and face the possibility you'll have to leave town in order to truly be able to live your life as a gay man.  That breeding pressure can be awful, even for heterosexuals, and in the "Bible Belt" it'll be worse I bet.  Take of yourself! 

[MENTION=26968]Vicar In A Tutu[/MENTION]: I remember Angelsboi too.  Poignant need.


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