# Looking for extremely powerful epic monsters



## GandalfMithrandir (Mar 11, 2009)

My D&D PCs are looking for a greater challenge fighting monsters. they've figured out almost everything that I know and have developed a strategy to take out every monster. the only thing I have that can challenge them is a flight of five prismatic dragons that are fully aged from the epic level handbook.


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## Quartz (Mar 14, 2009)

You probably want to loot Sepulchrave's threads. Upper Krust too.

But why not challenge them with another party of adventurers, as twinked out as they are?


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## GandalfMithrandir (Mar 14, 2009)

That's a good Idea, I could use some of Sepulchres charachters and some of my own creation to make a rival party for my charachters. I've already been looking through some of the Eadric et al thread for Major NPCs and Demon Lords. I have found that Grazzt with a bodyguard of six Mariliths can hold off my charachters, especially on Grazzt's home plane.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Mar 14, 2009)

sorry, I misspelled that, it's supposed to be sepulcrave, not sepulchere, my English teacher has been pounding the alternate spelling into my head for weeks.


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## Asha'man (Mar 15, 2009)

I think I can help you, but I have to ask: How powerful are your characters? What classes and levels are they? First you say you need five Great Prismatic Wyrms to challenge them, then you say Grazz't (presumably referring to Sep's build) with six marillith bodyguards can stave them off. But those encounters are so far from equivalent that it's ridiculous.
If the PCs can fight Great Prismatic Wyrms, they should have literally nothing to fear from grazz't, never mind the marilliths. But if the mariliths can interfere with them, even one Prismatic should mash them like a steamroller on mealy potatoes.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Mar 15, 2009)

They have a wizard around 69th level who's devoted all of his epic feats to epic spellcasting, first to have it an option, then epic skill focus for spellcraft and other spell boosting feats, an arcane archer around 70th level, with a +20 Holy Power, Sonic Blast, Keen, Unerringly Accurate, Lawful Power, Greatbow, a fighter who's taken every specilization and critical hit booster availible to boost up his +15 Holy Power, Lawful Power, Keen, Throwing, Returning, Fire Blast, Bastard Sword. The fourth member of their party was a cleric of Pelor, who normally protects the wizard but was temporarily killed, which allowed a marilith the ability to swing at the wizard a couple of times, breaking his concentration and keeping him from contributing to the fight. which is why they had issues fighting Grazz't, who at the end of the Savage Tide adventure path ascended to Demon Prince, when they normally take on Prismatic Dragons.


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## Asha'man (Mar 16, 2009)

Ah. You weren't joking when you said extremely, then, I see. That's pretty far above the waters I normally swim in (Nothing above lvl/HD 50 is my general rule) but I'll see if I can help you all the same. Here is my suggestion: The return of Tharizdun, at the head of a world-devouring horde of  Elemental Evil. This has menace (The players will probably be the only ones in the multiverse who have a shot at stopping it), it has scope (They'll have to fight in all kinds of areas on many different planes, and you can probably force them to make some hard choices about that since even these heroes can't be everywhere at once.) and it has a justification for the sudden appearance of many grotesquely powerful monsters. Also, the gods will be busy tag-teaming Tharizdun (and he will be busy killing gods) so divine interference on either side is accounted away. At the end, of course, the PCs will have to bail out the few remaining gods and seal Tharizdun away again. (And as he's spent his power fighting gods, he can be however powerful you want him to be at that point, depending on how hard you want the fight to be, and if you want the PCs to re-imprison him, slay him with a macguffin or genuinely beat him up in a battle royale.
Stat blocks are coming in my next post, but it'll have to wait a little. It will include:

Tharizdun (At CR 75, assumed to be the big end-boss guy)
The four Princes of Elemental Evil, empowered by Tharizdun to justify why they are suddenly CR 60-70.
The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
and various powerful elemental creatures.

Also, I hope you are good at running battles with many combatants, because if not, you will have trouble justifying why every monster these near-gods meet seems to be able to give them a worthwhile fight. I've assumed, since you're still playing with lvl 70 characters,, that you're pretty good at running big, complicated battles, because that is really the only way to keep this from being anything more interesting than an exercise in subtracting big numbers from one another.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Mar 16, 2009)

I should be fine at large battles, I've already put hem through multiple mass combat sequences in various wars, And I think that running ten powerful monsters _should_ be easier to run than half an army, not trying to get cocky, but I think I should be able to handle it.


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## weem (Mar 17, 2009)

Put them up against a planet-sized creature?

On its way to destroy their world - they have to get to it - and destroy it first.

Maybe having to deal with inhabitants on this creature who have prophesied(sp?) the ending of their own world (the creature) and believe that ending to be related to the PC's (and they are right!).

The destruction could require any number of insanely/seemingly impossible tasks... some of these, all of them, I don't know.

1/ Rid the planet(creature) of it's primary water sources (kill the oceans)

2/ Rid if of it's food source (no idea there)

3/ Destroy it's heart... maybe this is at it's core - something that takes a long time / many adventures to get to


Anyway, that's just some random stuff off the top spewed out here real quick.

Away!


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## GandalfMithrandir (Apr 14, 2009)

Yes, I could use the four princes of elemental evil, and thrazidurn and put them in a situation where the PCs have to stop them in a short amount of time to avoid some cataclysmically bad event that could destroy the world as they know it. I don't know how the princes of Elemental Evil work but do you know if they can stop the use of their element? because that would seriously screw up the PCs


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## Asha'man (Apr 15, 2009)

Sorry for bugging out on you. I got daunted by the vastness of the task, started procrastinating, and then I had lots of RL stuff to do. Here is a start, anyway. All the upcoming statblocks were made by Kain Darkwind over at Dicefreaks, modified by me. (Switching out feats etc. to make them more effective). 

First up, Tharizdun's human form. This is what the PCs find when they come to defeat Tharizdun and rescue the surviving gods after beating the Horde of Elemental Evil.

*Tharizdun*

*Medium Outsider (Air, Earth, Elder, Evil, Fire, Water) 
Hit Dice:* 60d8 + 1560 (2040 hp) 
*Initiative:* +20
*Speed:* 80 ft., burrow 80 ft., fly (perfect) 160 ft., swim 160 ft. 
*Armor Class:* 113 (+18 deflection, +12 Dex, +30 divine, +13 insight, +30 natural), touch 83, flat-footed 88 
*Base Attack/Combat:* +60/+90 
*Attack:* Axe +120 melee (1d10 + 30 /19-20/x3)
*Full Attack:* Axe +120/+115/+110/+105 melee (1d10 + 30 /19-20/x3)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft. / 5 ft. 
*Special Attacks:* Alter reality, aura of decay, elemental fury, summon elementals
*Special Qualities:* Damage reduction 55/-, darkvision, elemental traits, immune to acid, cold, electricity and fire, regeneration 50, spell resistance 85
*Saves:* Fort +86, Ref +80, Will +81
*Abilities:* Str 50, Dex 35, Con 46, Int 35, Wis 37, Cha 46 
*Skills:* Acrobatics +45, Bluff +81, Concentration +81, Climb +53, Diplomacy +93, Disguise +81 (+87 acting), Escape Artist +75, Fly +83, Intimidate +87, Knowledge (arcana) +75, Knowledge (history) +75, Knowledge (nature) +75, Knowledge (the planes) +75, Knowledge (religion) +75, Linguistics +75, Perception +76, Sense Motive +76, Spellcraft +81, Stealth +75, Survival +76, Swim +83
*Feats:* Ability Focus (alter reality), Bounding Assault, Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Fly-by Attack, Great Cleave, Improved Critical (axe), Improved Fly-by Attack, Improved Initiative, Improved Sunder, Mobility, Power Attack, Rapid Blitz, Spring Attack, Swim-by Attack
*Epic Feats:* Damage Reduction x5, Dire Charge, Epic Toughness x 4, Epic Ability Focus (alter reality), Epic Fortitude, Epic Reflexes, Epic Will, Superior Initiative
*Climate/Terrain:* Tharizdun's Prison
*Organization:* Solitary (unique) 
*Challenge Rating:* 75 
*Treasure:* A safe new world.
*Alignment:* Neutral Evil

*Alter Reality (Ex):* Tharizdun can produce the effects of any spell up to 39th level as a full round action. The DC to resist any such effects is 94, the caster level of the effect is 30th. (Remember that as this is done as an extraordinary ability, spell resistance does not apply and antimagic is not effective against it. Although it can still be dispelled as normal, I think)

*Aura of Decay (Ex):* Within 500 ft. of Tharizdun, every object and creature must make a Fortitude save (DC 88) or take 40d6 points of disintegration damage. This counts as _disintegrate_ for any purposes such as destroying walls of force or immunity.

*Elemental Fury:* 200 ft. radius burst, 40d10 fire, 40d10 cold, 40d10 electricity and 40d10 bludgeoning damage. Reflex DC 88 half. At will, every 1d10 rounds.

*Summon Elementals (Sp):* At will, Tharizdun may summon up to 100 HD of elementals from each primal element. He may not have more than 100 HD from a single element serving him at any time.

*Elder:* Tharizdun has an effective Divine Rank of 30 for purposes of interacting with divine powers and entities. 

*Regeneration (Ex):* It is unknown if any type of damage deals lethal damage to Tharizdun. Presumably a specifically designed epic spell cast upon him after his nonlethal damage exceeds his hit points by 780 points could prevent him from regenerating the damage. Specific major artifacts may also be capable of dealing Tharizdun lethal damage.

*Possessions:* Tharizdun wields a _+10 waraxe of ruin_ that deals vile damage.

I don't think I've ever seen the Princes of Elemental Evil statted with the ability to deny use of their element, but I can make a version that has such powers if you want one.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Apr 16, 2009)

Thanks for the stats! the immunity to all the elements except sonic will be a problem for the PC's, seeing as there are'nt any good sonic spells, so it should be a problem. the Aura of Decay will definitely be a  huge problem, seeing as the PC's fortitude saves are'nt very high in some cases. I don't even think the princes of elemental evil should just be minor boss battles, easy wins and just ways for the PC's resources to be drained before their battle with Thrazidun.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Oct 22, 2009)

The PCs managed to temporarily save the world and keep tharizdun from destroying it, but they know that they can't defeat him AND the four princes of elemental evil, so they hopped back in time (Using Timereaver, from one of the Dragonlance sourcebooks) and are training by seeking out powerful dragons to kill and loot. Asha'man if you could send me the stats for the tricked out princes of elemental evil that would be great, for the first encounter they only fought Tharizdun and barely beat him, only forcing him to run.


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## Asha'man (Oct 26, 2009)

Sure, how soon do you need them?


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## GandalfMithrandir (Oct 26, 2009)

Whenever, Tharizdun really scared my PCs so they will be training for a while.


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## CleverNickName (Oct 27, 2009)

You could always pit them against the gods themselves.  Maybe send them on a mission to destroy Lolth in her own home, or set them against Graz'zat and all his hellish minions...

Deities and Demigods (3rd Edition) has some pretty useful info for fighting the gods, if one were so inclined.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Nov 6, 2009)

I don't quite want top put them up against the gods yet, looking over the stats in Deities and Demigods it looks like the PCs can handle them, but it'll be difficult trying to work out how the whole pantheon will change, as a struggle for power over the followers of the defeated god, I'm just not set up to handle that yet, but I will definitely keep it in mind as an option and start working out possible repercussions of the death of a god.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Nov 18, 2009)

I'll start to need the princes of elemental evil+ immunity to their elements pretty soon, my characters are getting a little headstrong and think that they might be able to beat tharizdun within a month, which they may be able to, I don't know, but I probably have a month tops until they go for him again.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Dec 3, 2009)

Well, My PCs seem almost ready to defeat Tharizdun, they had their epic spellcaster make them all weapons that can kill him, I thought about saying that they couldn't bypass the regeneration but the PCs put a _lot_ of XP and Gold into the research and creation. The first time they tried it I said that the weapon that was to be enchanted blew up in all of their faces from the sheer power of the spell (The spellcaster had to put so much collateral damage that he nearly killed himself and the spell took a week to cast) Then I said that the charachters have to make weapons of a special material obtainable only at the core of the elmental plane of fire, so they have to get through thousands of feet of rocks and lava to get at the special metal without getting killed by the armies of whatever part of the plane they happen to be in. So that should add time, then they have to find someone with a hot enough forge and good enough to forge it (It is resistant to magical heat and shaping) then they have to enchant all of the weapons, and if they didn't gather enough of the metal they have to go back and get more, so I probably have about a month more, depending on how much hassle I give them, before thay take on Tharizdun again and kill him


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## Asha'man (Dec 5, 2009)

Well. Right now I'm in the middle of exams, but next weekend, I can probably get them to you. What CRs were the target, again? 70 each?


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## GandalfMithrandir (Dec 6, 2009)

Yup, 70 each please


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jan 14, 2010)

well, I haven't really been playing for a while, mainly due to a huge English Paper, but over the last few sessions my PCs have managed to kill Tharizdun, so I have said that there will be an ensuing battle for power over the elements between the remaining elemental powers, namely the princes. my paper will be due late February so we probably won't be playing until then so any time in then would be perfect for the stats, I can also stall for time if I have to on the battle between the PCs and the Princes, I think it would be a really memorable encounter for them so i would really like to be able to run it.


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## Asha'man (Jan 15, 2010)

Impressive... How did they do it?


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jan 17, 2010)

The party wizard, after he recovered from the first attempt at tharizdun-killing weapons, made them all cloaks that buffed their Fortitude saves to ignore the disintegration effect and everyone got a sword or bow that dealt lethal Damage. Also everyone had a universal ring of Elemental immunity to ignore his elemental attacks and the spell caster developed a spell that would bypass his regeneration but not do massive Damage so he didn't kill himself every time he used it. They put their sword fighters up front to hack at Tharizdun and get hacked at, The cleric was Tharizduns main target and so didn't do much beyond healing himself, the Archer kept pounding Arrows dealing a couple hundred damage each, about five or six hitting each round (multi shot, rapid shot as well as Deadly Shot from the Pathfinder Core rulebook) and the fighter critical hitting about every other time to about 200+ damage each time making four attacks each round, they killed Tharizdun in about three turns.


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## Jacob (Jan 25, 2011)

GandalfMithrandir said:


> The party wizard, after he recovered from the first attempt at tharizdun-killing weapons, made them all cloaks that buffed their Fortitude saves to ignore the disintegration effect and everyone got a sword or bow that dealt lethal Damage. Also everyone had a universal ring of Elemental immunity to ignore his elemental attacks and the spell caster developed a spell that would bypass his regeneration but not do massive Damage so he didn't kill himself every time he used it. They put their sword fighters up front to hack at Tharizdun and get hacked at, The cleric was Tharizduns main target and so didn't do much beyond healing himself, the Archer kept pounding Arrows dealing a couple hundred damage each, about five or six hitting each round (multi shot, rapid shot as well as Deadly Shot from the Pathfinder Core rulebook) and the fighter critical hitting about every other time to about 200+ damage each time making four attacks each round, *they killed Tharizdun in about three turns*.



My apologies on posting to a fairly old topic, but reading this had me so appalled I felt it necessary. I'm puzzled at how this all played out, as you say the PCs walked all over Thazidun, mostly due to the fact they had weapons and protections to conceivably fight him on a level the gods who sealed him could not. Appalling not just by the numbers given via the stats as posted, but what they were allowed to do.

Not that I don't think PCs shouldn't be allowed to quake the universe in such fashions and bring in a new era, but I keep wondering how Tharizdun allowed them the chance to get such power. If released, I imagine a good chuck of all planes of existence obliterated or in mass chaos, due to his power to undo creation (something all gods good and evil would be against). This mess would make things complex, and as such, they probably couldn't have the _time_ to produce such weapons, so...I really wonder on this. 4 Rings of Universal Energy Immunity would take 23 years on continuous crafting to make, and with everything else they needed... 

Mind you, I never touched on Epic play yet, so I can't really comprehend such numbers right now, but in terms of what I've experience in Lvls 1-20, the big bad, especially one as powerful as Tharizdun, should have impeded their progress somehow (along with his allies.)


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## jefgorbach (Jan 25, 2011)

Agreed, the PC’s fight should have been an over-the-top Climatic special-effect end-of-all-endings battle lasting far far far longer than a mere three rounds since we’re talking about something the entirety(?) of the multiversal patheons were unable to kill it outright, and so sacrificed 40-or-so of their number to imprison him. Even so, his greatly wounded, weakened half-asleep incarnation with presumably almost no followers remains an Intermediate god!

However I don’t see how Tharizdun could reasonably know of, let alone stop, the PCs intention to fight him given his current state and if known, would actually would most likely ASSIST their effort in anyway possible since it guarantees his release! 

That said, the PCs efforts are doomed to failure for the simple reason this is THE deity of Darkness, Decay, Entropy, and Insanity … thus the PC’s are guaranteed to be fighting in a senses-wracking environment requiring successful concentration checks for EVERY action; only to learn EVERY piece of equipment/spell brought into his presence needs a successful Fortitude save (DC 88 per Asha'man) EVERY ROUND or immediately cease to exist … including their newly researched and carefully crafted anti-Tharizdun weapons … leaving them both defenseless and weaponless for Tharizdun’s resulting curb-stomp. 

Knowing that, there is little doubt the numerous pantheons installed overlapping  alarms/safeguards to alert them of any planned rescue attempts – meaning the PC’s would likely need overcome the combined multiversal pantheons before/while making any attempt to reach the site of this ultimate battle with Tharizdun. 

I’m sure it COULD be done … but the described group sounds a little WEAK given the overwhelming power that should be arrayed against them.


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## Aeolius (Jan 25, 2011)

'nuf said


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jan 26, 2011)

I actually should have done more research, and DMed that badly, it went way too long anyway and I killed it in a very anti-climactic way, where the power of all the stuff that they had killed imploded in upon itself and killed everything in damage that went past any damage reduction and resistances they had, even all the immunities they put up, so now they are level 1 again, working their way back up


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## pemerton (Jan 26, 2011)

Jacob said:


> My apologies on posting to a fairly old topic, but reading this had me so appalled I felt it necessary. I'm puzzled at how this all played out





jefgorbach said:


> Agreed, the PC’s fight should have been an over-the-top Climatic special-effect end-of-all-endings battle lasting far far far longer than a mere three rounds



Isn't 3 rounds fairly standard for high-level 3E fights?

As for the broader issues, I ran a campaign - in Rolemaster, not 3E - that culminated in the PC's fighting Tharizdun twice - once in the form in which he had been freed from imprisonment, and once in the form he takes in the Void (=Far Realm). They also reimprisoned him.

These 25+ level PCs used a lot of Time Stop to help them, which they got from entering into the dreams of a banished god who (before his banishment) had been the one of the most powerful magician and sages in the heavens. The fights against Tharizdun were, in turn, the culmination of a story arc that began something like 10 levels earlier, with a version of the Freeport Trilogy (which itself culminated with one of the PCs merging with a Dead God on which the lighthouse was being built to deflect Tharizdun - falling to earth from his heavenly prison - into the deep oceans). I also integrated all but the last part of Bastion of Broken Souls into the adventure. Plus some other stuff of my own.

Anyway, I don't see what's objectionable about this sort of thing. For me it made a pretty dramatic way to end a campaign whose themes were the natures of heaven, law, sacrifice, freedom and enlightenment.


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## Aramax (Jan 26, 2011)

My pc's are 23rd and tricked out w/ more magic than Houdini,so I feel your pain

I just challanged them w/something I called an Apocolyps(cant spell)Staff.

Alarge group of mages imbue the staff w/many spells that it can cast at 4 a round(8 a round when it casts an action point for you 4e peeps)
It is sourounded by an aura of protection that takes in my case 1750 hp
it has 250 left after the aura breaks down and reflects x2 damage,it has a second aura that inflicts 30 hp a round.It has a third aura trapping everyone in with it like a horribly tricked out prismatic sphere.It is programmed to attack the most logical targets first.It is immune to many attacks as it is basicly a stick hurled through a portal.
some of the things it can do
It has a cloud your mind attack that prevents you from being able to se it or anything within 10 feet of it
It can take control of peeps and attack your comrads

near TPK,great fun great fun


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## GandalfMithrandir (Jan 26, 2011)

that sounds awesome, I will be using that idea next time my PCs get around that level, if its ok!


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## Jacob (Feb 5, 2011)

GandalfMithrandir said:


> I actually should have done more research, and DMed that badly, it went way too long anyway and I killed it in a very anti-climactic way, where the power of all the stuff that they had killed imploded in upon itself and killed everything in damage that went past any damage reduction and resistances they had, even all the immunities they put up, so now they are level 1 again, working their way back up



Sounds appropriate enough, if it was a necessary sacrifice to seal away an evil they could never slay. Every action requires a reaction in order to balance such a power shift, right? In any other circumstance...ouch.

In other news, I assume they went about rebuilding and saving the almost destroyed multiverse, correct? Gods running out of the woodwork to delay a god from erasing existence tends to reshape more than continents.



pemerton said:


> Isn't 3 rounds fairly standard for high-level 3E fights?
> 
> As for the broader issues, I ran a campaign - in Rolemaster, not 3E - that culminated in the PC's fighting Tharizdun twice - once in the form in which he had been freed from imprisonment, and once in the form he takes in the Void (=Far Realm). They also reimprisoned him.
> 
> ...



It's not the power of the PCs that I confuzzled over, because again, a PC has the option to consider being a god at some point (among other grandiose goals). It dealt more with the amount of time that should have passed in order to let them get so powerful in conjunction with how long the fight lasted. And no, I don't think fights (climatic fights) should last 3 rounds. If it's happening, something wrong has happened. 

...Well, sure, the party went back in time to steal treasures from Prismatic Dragons so that they could gain strength, but messing with the time continuum in such a way (depending on how one views such a thing) just makes for a bad outcome.


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## GandalfMithrandir (Feb 6, 2011)

I said that most everything got fixed up off camera and now the current campaign is revolving around them helping to clean up the mess that they made, and now I have decided to make the temporal travel very heavily restricted.


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## pemerton (Feb 6, 2011)

Jacob said:


> I don't think fights (climatic fights) should last 3 rounds. If it's happening, something wrong has happened.



OK, I get your point.

I think this is a function of mechanics, though, to some extent. I haven't played high level 3E, but I gather that 3 rounds is pretty typical for fights in that game. I know from a lot of experience that 3 rounds is pretty typical for a Rolemaster combat, especially against a single powerful foe, because that is about how long it takes until either a death crit is achieved or the enemy drops on hits due to concentrated fire.

While it might be more epic to have the fight take longer, in some systems the mechanics just don't really permit this.


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