# Feats for a Zen Archer Monk



## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 11, 2010)

I just started playing the above archetype, and while it seems inferior to archer ranger (HD, skills, BAB, spells, extra actions animal companion) in almost every way, it is still fun, I think I quite like it.  One of the definite strengths of the class is the massive amount of bonus feats you get, many of them hitting you right at the first levels.  On the downside, this also has caused a "happy" problem: This is possibly the first character ever I can't find useful feats for past level 3!

You get bonus feats at level 1 and 2 for Precise Shot and Point Blank Shot (you could take Far Shot or other less useful feats, but why would you?).  Level 2 gives Weapon Focus.  Level 3 gives Point Blank Master.  Level 6 gives Improved Precise Shot (anyone who doesn't expend the monk bonus feat on this immediately upon becoming available is a fool, IMO!) and Weapon Specialization.  I think it's worthless, but level 10 even lets you bag Shot on the Run without the pre-reqs.

So...what's left to really take?  Level 3's easy: Deadly Aim (BAB req prevents you from obtaining at level 1).  After that, it gets kinda hard...  I maintain Far Shot is worthless, especially after PF nerfed it.   Rapid Shot and Manyshot explicitly do nothing for you.

In my case, the game allows anything Pathfinder.  Which basically means core, APG, and all the crazy broken  on d20pfsrd.  Obviously in a game with 3E material allowed, there is no problem.

Thus far the only feat I've found to directly aid in archery is Noble Scion.  Terrible car, great feat.
"Narikopolus: Whenever you use a composite Strength bow of your Strength bonus or lower, you deal +2 points of damage with it."
It's like getting Weapon Specialization...again!

Beyond that, it seems to be a question of what defensive abilities or cool tricks you want.  I like to spend most of my money on defense and most of my feats on offense generally, but what can I do?  Here's my current list of potential feats to grab as my character levels up (just hit 4):

Dodge: +1 AC and CMD is never bad.
Deflect Arrows: If the tank and battlefield control mage are doing their jobs, arrows may be one of the only things you have to worry about, so negating 1/round seems nice.
Nimble Moves: Lets you basically always 5 ft step.  If you need to adjust position for whatever reason, being able to do so no matter what is pretty nice.  Considering you not only have all the normal archer reasons to want to always full attack, but also only get to have full BAB and blow ki points for extra attacks while full attacking on top of those reasons.
Spider Step [APG]: Requires 6 skill ranks in one good skill and one poor one, and the benefit is possibly impractical in most situations.  Still, moving half your slow fall distance across water or on a ceiling is so inherently badass this is my level 7 feat anyway.
Cloud Step [APG]: Requires Spider Step and 12 ranks in the same skills.  Air Walking at half your slow fall distance at will is surely useful.
Other "fist" feats: Once you hit level 11, you have the BAB +8 to legit qualify for these, and as written by RAW, as a monk you get to use each of them once/day/level.  Seems potentially useful once you get the free Ki Focus on your bow at class level 17, at least for a high level build.

Anything else in PF that's useful to a Zen Archer that I missed?  Think any of those feats are totally unimportant?


----------



## gamerprinter (Oct 11, 2010)

Well you mentioned all the books you're being allowed, so this will probably not help, but consider Louis J. Porter Jr's UndeFEATable #6 Rangers - I think it will cost you a $1 for the PDF... Pathfinder Compatible.
*
Archers Coup de Grace* - coup de grace helpless opponents at 30' distance
*Armor Piercing Shot* - requires Craft (armor) 6 ranks, allows you to study your armored opponent for one round, then you make a Perception check to penetrate the armor.
*Arrow Stab* - obvious...
*Arrow Trip* - make a trip attack at range.
* Dead Shot *- bypass cover on opponent.
* Deadly Aim* - increase critical multiplier
*Threatened Zone/Improved Threatened Zone* - while armed with a bow, opponents who enter a 30'/40' radius is threatening you and allows for AoO within that range.
*Instinctive Shot* - increase range with Wis Bonus
*Killing Shot* - reduce to single attack gain pluses to hit.
*Overpenetrate* - like 3x cleave, though if you kill your target, arrow flies through the victim into someone behind that target.
*Pinpoint Accuracy* - bonus to hit with single shot
*Perfect Shot* - bonus damage if reduce to a single shot per round
*Ranged Trip* - similar to Arrow Trip, though better I think
*Reflexive Shot *- like 2e if your bow is nocked attack on surprise round.

Some of these feats are prereq's for others, I didn't give too much detail so it would be still worthy to get this book.

If on the other hand you can't use this book... sorry couldn't help you.

GP


----------



## nothingpoetic (Oct 11, 2010)

Combining some of the single shot feats from gamer's post, with the vital strike line and the snipe action would be pretty devastating...


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 11, 2010)

The problem is, Zen Archer really really wants to full attack.  I see no reason to burn a whole lot of feats on a tactic you can't combine with the flurry.  Keep in mind that not only do you have full BAB only when full attacking, not only does full attacking give you flurry (basically like rapid shot for a while), not only does full attacking let you spend ki points for another attack...  You have point blank master, so you should never even really need to move for many reasons anyway.  You can shoot people right in the face, and get +1 attack and damage for it, too.

Regardless, I couldn't take any of those feats.  Only d20pfsrd, core PF, and APG is allowed.  Thanks for the help anyway, the feats for a long range threatened area seem interesting, even though Zen Archer lets you threaten adjacent with the bow at level 9 anyway.


----------



## gamerprinter (Oct 14, 2010)

Ranged martial weapons of x3 critical modifier, so take *Improved Critical* when he's 11th level. The *critical feat* chain is probably no good as it won't be available until 13th+ level.

Since you like the *Threatened Zone* idea, how about *Combat Patrol* in the APG, you need Combat Reflexes and Mobility, as well as +5 BAB. It takes a full round action to set it up, until the beginning of your next turn, increasing your threatened zone by 5 feet for every 5 points of BAB, during that round you may make Attacks of Opportunity at any opponent in the threatened area that provokes an Attack of Opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks - of course with a bow you don't have to.

Take *Shot on the Run*, then at 8th level, take *Parting Shot* from the APG. Make a ranged attack while withdrawing.

You can't go wrong with *Spider Step* and *Cloud Step*, for ninja like movement and _Air Walk_ (half your slow fall movement). Not so much to help your archery, but better movment options. 

I also like *Second Chance* and *Improved Second Chance* allowing to trade lower iterative attacks for missed first attack, then reroll missed shots at a -5. Would this work with Flurry?

Perhaps some of the *Teamword feats*, if other party members take them as well, might be helpful.

Other ones to look at anyway, most in the APG.

GP


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 14, 2010)

gamerprinter said:


> Ranged martial weapons of x3 critical modifier, so take *Improved Critical* when he's 11th level. The *critical feat* chain is probably no good as it won't be available until 13th+ level.




Imp. Crit's actually available as a level 10 bonus feat, the only reason I wouldn't take it there is if I wanted Shot on the Run.  That said, I've never found Imp. Crit to be worth it on a "20" weapon, the higher threat range weapons get such a blatantly better boost out of it.  Also, the class per day ability, Perfect Strike, requires when using it that if one of the rolls is a threat, the other roll is used to confirm.  I don't like the odds of getting two good rolls simultaneously, so that hurts critting.  Finally, I don't think the crit feats are very useful without a 15-20 threat range (like a scimitar could give), I think I'm better off with the "Fist" feats at those levels.  Also...I have to leave the game end of February, I'm totally never getting that high in level anyway. 



gamerprinter said:


> Since you like the *Threatened Zone* idea, how about *Combat Patrol* in the APG, you need Combat Reflexes and Mobility, as well as +5 BAB. It takes a full round action to set it up, until the beginning of your next turn, increasing your threatened zone by 5 feet for every 5 points of BAB, during that round you may make Attacks of Opportunity at any opponent in the threatened area that provokes an Attack of Opportunity. You may move as part of these attacks - of course with a bow you don't have to.




Combat Reflexes isn't very useful till level 9; my unarmed attacks are pathetic compared to bow shots.  And that's a lot of (weak) feat investment for a questionable payoff...  Still, noted.



gamerprinter said:


> Take *Shot on the Run*, then at 8th level, take *Parting Shot* from the APG. Make a ranged attack while withdrawing.




Why would I need Parting Shot?  It can only be used once/encounter and is only one shot while withdrawing.  I want full attacks, and suffer no particular bad stuff for shooting in melee (other than that the other guy probably does more damage than me).   If I could use Parting Shot while moving with Spider Step / Cloud Walk, I'd be more impressed.  But those are move actions to use.  I'll probably take Shot on the Run at 10, it does have some usage for combats where the other guy has no way of closing with me, to slowly and safely pick him off, I suppose.



gamerprinter said:


> You can't go wrong with *Spider Step* and *Cloud Step*, for ninja like movement and _Air Walk_ (half your slow fall movement). Not so much to help your archery, but better movment options.




Yes, plan to take these just for the cool factor.  



gamerprinter said:


> I also like *Second Chance* and *Improved Second Chance* allowing to trade lower iterative attacks for missed first attack, then reroll missed shots at a -5. Would this work with Flurry?




Probably, but flurry gives two attacks at full BAB anyway, seems pretty silly to throw the rest away or suffer a large penalty on them for the first attack again.



gamerprinter said:


> Perhaps some of the *Teamword feats*, if other party members take them as well, might be helpful.




Not sure any are much help for an archer, but maybe.  We have a very large party...

Thanks for your help.


----------



## pawsplay (Oct 15, 2010)

I think focusing on full attacks is a limited perspective. Since you have already stated there aren't enough feats that even interest you, why not invest in a few contingencies? Vital Strike is very solid, and further, can help you out in bad DR situations, like if you fight a lich, or need to avoid changing terrain conditions.

Improved Critical is a very good feat. The bow only crits on a 20, but when it does crit, it gets x3. So it's just as good, really, with a bow as it is with a 19-20/x2 weapon. Considering how many attacks you are potentially getting with flurry, you could be scoring a critical hit every other round. Obviously other more bread-and-butter feats are going to come first, but I would not discount ImpCrit. Further, Improved Critical synergizes really well with Perfect Strike.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 15, 2010)

Vital Strike might be a decent level 9 choice, the medium BAB sort of hinders that route, though.  I still don't see Improved Crit being very good with a small threat range, and I honestly never liked the x3 and x4 crit weapons, because I only ever seem to crit when it's overkill with them.

I'm actually thinking Snatch Arrows could be a good choice for the level 10 feat now.  Saves me a feat on Deflect Arrows and is pretty cool.  Shame you have to toss a thrown weapon back at the same person, otherwise it could be a pretty fun way to convert an ally's lowest BAB attack into one with your highest. 

I can't think of a scenario where shot on the run would be useful wherein the other side isn't already completely hosed anyway.  I guess if they can beat me in a shootout I'd want to keep them from full attacking me and keep running behind and out of cover.  But if I can't win a shootout, I've probably failed as an archer anyway.   Certainly makes Vital Strike look nicer on the defensive end of that tactic, as the one thing that kept flashing into my mind when thinking of trading single attacks with Shot on the Run and being a coward was: "If the other guy has Vital Strike, he can ready to use it when I pop out, but I can't use VS with Shot on the Run..."


----------



## pawsplay (Oct 15, 2010)

I would definitely take Vital Strike over Shot on the Run. You can always tumble and shoot. Shot on the Run is very situational to when you can do good damage with one shot, and you can begin and end with total cover. Monk zen archer is not the best way to do that, for sure.


----------



## Jadeite (Oct 15, 2010)

Considering that perfect strike greatly improves the chance of criting, improved critical might be a good choice, especially when combined with critical focus.


----------



## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 15, 2010)

Perfect Strike basically gives you two rolls to confirm the crit at level 10, so I guess it does improve the odds.  Before that, I'd say it reduces the chances of critting, because when you roll both dice and one is a crit, you have to use the other for the confirmation.  If there was an actual good chance of both dice coming out high, you wouldn't need the ability in the first place.  Then again, my view of luck and random chance often doesn't agree with the way things are supposed to be.

Again though, Imp. Crit at level 10-11, Critical Focus at 11 or 13, and then the actual pay dirt feat, one of the Crit feats, at 13 to 15...  On a weapon that's only threatening 10% of the time...  Versus (if we're assuming levels that high) getting Stunning Fist at 11 and I don't know...Touch of Serenity at 13, Punishing Kick at 15, etc...?  Sure, you don't get Ki Focus (bow) as a class feature until a little past that, but you have a very high wisdom so those can still be handy with unarmed.  And AFAIK, you could just pay for Ki Focus on your bow until then.  Each of those (monk level) / day seems more generally useful still...  And cooler.


----------



## Jadeite (Oct 15, 2010)

Even with only two rolls Perfect Strike nearly doubles your chance to crit. It becomes more appearant if you imagine a confirmation roll even without a threat. Say, your character needs a 15 to hit. The following combinations would be crits (20,15),(20,16),(20,17),(20,18),(20,19),(20,20). (15,20),(16,20),(17,20),(18,20),(19,20) wouldn't be considered critical hits. With Perfect Strike, they would.
With Perfect Strike, Improved Critical and Critical Focus the chance of critting should be higher than that of a 18-20 weapon (with Improved Critical and Critical Focus).


----------



## Talon378 (Apr 10, 2011)

*Goblin 12th level Zen Archer......*

I have created a Goblin 12th level Zen Archer and I have to say that he has become one of the most dominating characters I have created in a LONG time.

He gets 5 attacks with his bow, crits about once a round, I use the perfect strike ability on the lowest attack of the round to try and guarantee 5 hits per round. With the Ki ability to make your arrows do hand to hand damage, and a +3 bow, I am doing 1D10+7 points of damage per hit with a small sized longbow. I am regularly approaching 60+ points of damage per round at range, and I am doing this at a good range. I have had a round or two where I have approached 100 points of damage!!!!


Dallas


----------



## Celtavian (Apr 10, 2011)

*re*

I don't know about what feats are especially interesting for a Zen Archer monk. But I will tell you this, I run one of these. It is inferior to the fighter at low levels. Does less damage and less of a chance to hit.

But this class at high level is much harder to deal with than a fighter archer with very similar damage output. 

The class ends up with more attacks by itself. With flurry and ki points you end up getting 8 attacks without haste, 9 with haste compared to the 7 a fighter gets with Rapid Shot, Many Shot, and _haste_. 

Your saves are much better. You have almost no weak saves.

The special abilities are fairly nice including trick shot. Being able to shoot around corners is pretty incredible and can be annoying as a DM. There isn't much chance of escape against a Zen Archer monk unless you lock yourself in a room.

Your AC is usually better.

You get to have your arrows do up to 2d10 points of damage each at max lvl. I believe my friend is at 2d8 per arrow right now for a round with ki points.

My player min-maxed a little and took four lvls of Ranger. So he could cast _gravity bow_. That takes his arrows up to 3d6 or 3d8 or something for a round. If he uses his ki point he increases base damage to the base monk damage, then _gravity bow_ increases arrow damage by one size. Pretty powerful.

You may start off slow as a Zen Archer monk. And do a bit less raw damage than a Fighter Archer, but all the perks more than make up for the losses at high level. 

It also helps that the Zen Archer Monk gets to focus on Wisdom rather than dexterity for attack rolls. That reduces a stat since dex is no longer really a necessity.

Overall Zen Archer Monk is turning out to be a pretty potent class. The player gets SR next level, which a fighter never gets. And abundant step and the crazy movement which allows them to kite far better than the figther.


----------



## Celtavian (Apr 10, 2011)

Talon378 said:


> I have created a Goblin 12th level Zen Archer and I have to say that he has become one of the most dominating characters I have created in a LONG time.
> 
> He gets 5 attacks with his bow, crits about once a round, I use the perfect strike ability on the lowest attack of the round to try and guarantee 5 hits per round. With the Ki ability to make your arrows do hand to hand damage, and a +3 bow, I am doing 1D10+7 points of damage per hit with a small sized longbow. I am regularly approaching 60+ points of damage per round at range, and I am doing this at a good range. I have had a round or two where I have approached 100 points of damage!!!!
> 
> ...





Perfect Strike is potent. When the Zen Archer Monk gets to use it for his lower to hit chance attacks, it makes one of those lower BAB attacks more effective.


----------



## VanceMadrox (Apr 11, 2011)

Celtavian said:


> It also helps that the Zen Archer Monk gets to focus on Wisdom rather than dexterity for attack rolls. That reduces a stat since dex is no longer really a necessity.




It means more than just that. It also means that the Zen Archer's Stat for to hit (WIS) is mental whereas his Stat for damage (STR) is Physical. This means he can rock single stat boosting items for both and save a ton on Gold.
He doesn't need dual stat boosting items.


Really the freedom of the Zen Archer vs the Archer Ranger or Fighter is it frees you up to use your feats on other things. You don't need rapidshot, many shot, or even point blank shot. On top of that you get tons of bonus feats. 

I think it's better to branch out into other options. The Zen Archer can afford to spend feats on feats that boost already impressive saves, or even on skill focus.


----------



## Talon378 (Apr 12, 2011)

Another option is one I have done, where I have chosen feats and skills that play off my abilities and allow me to be extremely stealthy and perceptive to become a "super scout" of sorts. With my improvements to movement (higher movement rate, dimension door if the you know what hits the fan, Spider and Cloud step), my high Dex and Wisdom (you need both to pull this off), and my ability to silently attack from cover if I choose, I end up being a far better scout than the Ranger is able to be. The only thing that the Ranger gets that I don't is spells, which I feel the increased movement more than offsets, in my opinion.

While I am talking about Junkto, let me also say that I forgot to mention that his +3 bow is also a composite bow, meaning that he gets an additional +2 from his strength to the damage, that is how he is getting to an overall +7 to damage. Simply put, this guy is as close to a mobile artillery unit as I have seen in any Dungeons and Dragons system. Before this guy, the most lethal archer I have ever run in role playing was a LongBowman in Palladium, but this guy is going to end up giving that a guy a serious run for his money.



VanceMadrox said:


> It means more than just that. It also means that the Zen Archer's Stat for to hit (WIS) is mental whereas his Stat for damage (STR) is Physical. This means he can rock single stat boosting items for both and save a ton on Gold.
> He doesn't need dual stat boosting items.
> 
> 
> ...


----------

