# Enlarge non-humanoid?



## Question (Aug 30, 2006)

Are there any spells to enlarge non-humanoids? Things like constructs, vermin, animals, etc?


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## Infiniti2000 (Aug 30, 2006)

Become a psychic warrior.


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## FrostedMini1337 (Aug 30, 2006)

Get ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge(arcana).
Get an arcane laboratory.
Roll some d20s.
Get a high number.
Write down "Enlarge, True" on spell list for spells known.


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## frankthedm (Aug 30, 2006)

Animals? Yes, the Animal growth spell. Druid 4 i believe.

FrostedMini1337 has a fine point about researching the spell in game.The standard DMG cost and times for such are 1 week per spell level and 1000gp per week.  

As it happens, there is an _equivalent_ of such a spell _buried_ in the core rules. 2nd level and can affect a non humaniod when cast _by_ said non humaniod sounds reasonable.

*Change Size (Sp)*_
Twice per day, an efreeti can magically change a creature’s size. This works just like an enlarge person or reduce person spell (the efreeti chooses when using the ability), except that the ability can work on the efreeti. A DC 13 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Charisma-based. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell. _


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## Sejs (Aug 30, 2006)

Well there is Animal Growth (Dru/5) and Giant Vermin, but that's probably not what you're looking for.

Sort of an Enlarge Anyone spell, eh?  Well, if I recall, Greater Enlarge is 3rd (SC?) so I'd place a General Enlarge at 2nd easily, and a Greater General Enlarge at 4th.

Seems like a reasonable progression.


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## Sejs (Aug 30, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> FrostedMini1337 has a fine point about researching the spell in game.The standard DMG cost and times for such are 1 week per spell level and 1000gp per week.




Ayup, seconded.  Spell research is the solution to many of the missing spell woes.  If there isn't a spell for X - make one!  And slap your name on it. You'll be famous _and_ powerful!


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## frankthedm (Aug 30, 2006)

Sejs said:
			
		

> Seems like a reasonable progression.



Until the ogre and minotaur fighters drink thier potions of it!

When 3.5 made _enlarge_ a little too good, they protected players from being brutalized by it by only making humaniods legal target of it.

150gp worth of gear for a large beat-stick critter to get huge[and a little bit stronger]? That will get messy fast.


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## Sejs (Aug 30, 2006)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> Until the ogre and minotaur fighters drink thier potions of it!
> 
> When 3.5 made _enlarge_ a little too good, they protected players from being brutalized by it by only making humaniods legal target of it.
> 
> 150gp worth of gear for a large beat-stick critter to get huge[and a little bit stronger]? That will get messy fast.




Heh, granted, but they were nasty enough without the potion anyway.  Such that I don't really figure it'd make an okay situation horrible so much as it'd make an already bad situation just that much worse.

But I'm okay with that.  Besides, I'm the DM.  If there're any ogre or minotaur fighters with potions of Oh-god-damn being encountered, they arn't going to be PCs.


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## frankthedm (Aug 30, 2006)

Sejs said:
			
		

> But I'm okay with that.  Besides, I'm the DM.  If there're any ogre or minotaur fighters with potions of Oh-god-damn being encountered, they arn't going to be PCs.



 Oh, NPCs showing how well balanced Enlarge Monster potions are was exactly what i was hinting at...


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## pawsplay (Aug 30, 2006)

Frankly, is someone going to be happy if the minotaur has a potion of bull's strength instead? Or divine favor? How about a troll with a potion of protection from energy?

Basically, I would take Enlarge person, jack it up to 3rd level, and give it a material component that costs 25 gp, and call it Enlarge Creature.


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## Nightfall (Aug 30, 2006)

Wishes and miracles help too.


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## frankthedm (Aug 30, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Frankly, is someone going to be happy if the minotaur has a potion of bull's strength instead? Or divine favor? How about a troll with a potion of protection from energy?



Divine favor is personal. Most reading of the rules for potiojns prevent those in potions.

Bulls would help the to hit better, enlarge adds more damage and reach at the expence of 2 pionts of AC and to hit with ranged weapons. Monsters have "to hit" to spare.

You mean Protection from Energy[fire] *or* Protection from Energy[acid] right?

_When you *create* a potion, you make any choices that you would normally make when casting the spell. Whoever drinks the potion is the target of the spell.

Potions are like spells cast upon the imbiber. *The character taking the potion doesn’t get to make any decisions about the effect* —the caster who brewed the potion has already done so. The drinker of a potion is both the effective target and the caster of the effect (though the potion indicates the caster level, the drinker still controls the effect).
_

On the most part, Enlarge is balanced at 2nd level provided polymorphing to a larger form counts as a 'magical increase to size'. Heck, I say drop enlarge person at first and just make reduce and enlarge 2nd level spells that effect all type creatures [also do away with that clunky '1 full round casting time'].


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## pawsplay (Aug 31, 2006)

Right on the potion thing. Divine favor was a bad example; heroism or haste, then. In general, I'd expect a troll would get more use out of a resistance to fire, but it's not a given.


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## Nightfall (Aug 31, 2006)

Unless said troll is already immune to fire and acid.


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## pawsplay (Aug 31, 2006)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Unless said troll is already immune to fire and acid.




Surely no DM would EVER dream of throwing an anarchic half-dragon (red) troll at a party.


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## Nightfall (Aug 31, 2006)

Well not this week...maybe later on...as they start to feel more confindent...


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## Sejs (Aug 31, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Surely no DM would EVER dream of throwing an anarchic half-dragon (red) troll at a party.




Crystaline trolls.  *nod*  

Oh, regen bypassed by sonic damage you say? Mm mmm good.


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## javcs (Aug 31, 2006)

pawsplay said:
			
		

> Surely no DM would EVER dream of throwing an anarchic half-dragon (red) troll at a party.



It's happened before .. and will happen again, I'm certain of that, knowing some of the things my DM comes up with.
'Sides, is that much worse than a red dragon immune to cold?


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## Question (Aug 31, 2006)

Yea the red dragon is killable.


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## Nail (Aug 31, 2006)

....that is to say "doesn't regenerate".  Right, *question*?


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## Question (Aug 31, 2006)

I thought a troll can only be killed via fire or acid, and a troll that is immune to fire or acid cannot be killed, as it regenerates all damage.


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## frankthedm (Aug 31, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> I thought a troll can only be killed via fire or acid, and a troll that is immune to fire or acid cannot be killed, as it regenerates all damage.



No, 3rd edition allows for there to be a few other ways, notably drowning. I'd think if a critter have vital organs carved out and live, a little water in the lungs would be an inconvenience, temporarily crippling perhaps, but not fatal. 

Death magic kills them just fine. Crush the soul/life force and bing.


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## Nail (Aug 31, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> I thought a troll can only be killed via fire or acid, and a troll that is immune to fire or acid cannot be killed, as it regenerates all damage.



The SRD is your friend:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Regeneration (Ex):* .....Attack forms that don’t deal hit point damage ignore regeneration. Regeneration also does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation.


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## Question (Aug 31, 2006)

Okay so your only chocie is insta kill death magic of some sort then? A troll has fairly good fort saves IIRC.

Also how does an adventuring party starve a troll to death, or suffocate it?


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## frankthedm (Aug 31, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Okay so your only chocie is insta kill death magic of some sort then? A troll has fairly good fort saves IIRC.
> 
> Also how does an adventuring party starve a troll to death, or suffocate it?



Well if the troll is immune to both fire _and _ acid [stupid half dragon war troll...]

*Starve it:* trap it in a dungeon room or cave. As it happens IMG trolls starve at the rate other critters die of thirst. That regen requires a high calorie/high protien diet.

*Suffocate it: * trap it in a small dungeon room or cave. Seal the way out with wax.

*Drown it.* You might need enough water to submerse it, or the DM might just let pour the water in though a lung wound.


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## Octal40 (Aug 31, 2006)

If Artificer (or you know one), make an item of Alter Self. Then give to the target. They can then change into another creature of their type within one size category.


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## Nightfall (Aug 31, 2006)

Some nice idea to deal with a troll with fire and acid immunity. Besides there's always death by massive damage...right? 

Plus you could always open a portal to the Negative Energy plane. Like to see a troll survive there...


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## Sejs (Aug 31, 2006)

I believe it was Hyp that pointed out - cut out its lungs and it is now unable to breathe.


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## Moon-Lancer (Aug 31, 2006)

also, if your dm is really bad about the lung thing, saying the lungs will regen before it can sufficate, you can just put big rocks in mouth so it chokes (sufficates).


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## Nail (Sep 1, 2006)

Since the troll regenerates at a fixed rate, have your fighter continue attacking while it is down --> don't bother with coup de grace.

While it's at negative hp, it is helpless.  Cover it's mouth and nose for awhile....voila!  Suffocation!


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## pawsplay (Sep 1, 2006)

Question said:
			
		

> Okay so your only chocie is insta kill death magic of some sort then? A troll has fairly good fort saves IIRC.
> 
> Also how does an adventuring party starve a troll to death, or suffocate it?




Presumably, if the kingdom is threatened by an army of War Trolls (say, three), the royal wizard should research a spell of suffocation. Other options would be to transport it to an airless plane, keep it locked up for a long time, or beat it down with nonlethal damage, then strangle it. Some poison gases would be suffociation, I imagine. Or you could take it deep underground, then put torches every 20' along the walls and wait for the oxygen supply to run out...  

Other ways of dealing with it include save or die spells, transforming it into a bunny, trapping it as long as you practically require, outrunning it, dropping it from such a height it takes a long time to regenerate, turning it to stone, having a Huge summoned creature swallow it, encasing it in stone or resin (which will probbaly also suffocate it), casting "I wish this troll would die," poisoning it (Con damage), bestowing a disease on it, attacking it with wights, or tricking it into becoming an 11th level cleric and becoming a lich, causing it to lose its Con score and consequently, its regeneration.


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## Nightfall (Sep 3, 2006)

I like my idea about the negative energy plane myself...


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## Sithobi1 (Sep 3, 2006)

There's always Death by Awesome. Since nonlethal damage doesn't decrease the HP, it can still be unconscious when it has twice its normal HP, and fail the save.


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## Nightfall (Sep 3, 2006)

Yeah but I don't think you can knock a creature with Regn out. At least it turns all non-lethal damage into...nothing I think.


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## Sithobi1 (Sep 3, 2006)

Nonlethal damage to a creature with regen is still nonlethal damage. It can be knocked out. Also, you could just swing at it normally.


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## Nightfall (Sep 3, 2006)

Sith,

You say so. It just seemed a little..odd about that. Still I'll accept your word on that issue.


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## Raylis (Sep 3, 2006)

damage that doesn't overcome the creatures regeneration converts to nonleathal damage. My players feared the wartroll until they managed to fight them on their ship, a few chain lightnings later all three trolls were sinking quickly to the bottom of the ocean...


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