# Now this is green energy



## Kramodlog (Mar 12, 2014)

Photo microbial fuel cells or also known as moss. 

[video=vimeo;83805106]http://vimeo.com/83805106[/video]

Making those does have less of an environmental impact than solar panels. Another added benefit is that green roofs reduce the heat island effect, meaning less energy is needed to cool buildings/houses. 

I wonder if GMO plants could make this more efficient, but the same old problem arises: the GMO moss will end up in the environment and the long term impact is an unknown.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 12, 2014)

Fascinating! I always wonder what is the energy cost of making solar panels. I know there is a lot in the silicon crystal manufacturing.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 12, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> Fascinating! I always wonder what is the energy cost of making solar panels. I know there is a lot in the silicon crystal manufacturing.



Difficult to say.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 12, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Difficult to say.




This phrase pretty well gives as close of an answer as any:

Crystalline silicon devices are approaching the theoretical limiting efficiency of 29.4% and achieve an energy payback period of 1–2 years


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 12, 2014)

So does this mean we are going to have to mow our roofs as well?


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 12, 2014)

What creatures eat moss?


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 12, 2014)

Some faily large animals that you wouldn't want on your roof. Also, some small ones that you probably wouldn't want in your home.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 12, 2014)

Build a stronger roof! Mow much does a rain deer weigh? less then an elk?


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## Kramodlog (Mar 12, 2014)

Or make GMO rabbits that lay eggs. They maintain the moss and produce food!


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 12, 2014)

What are you going to do about the reindeer poop?


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## Kramodlog (Mar 12, 2014)

Pull a Dali. That is roll around in it to prove my love to a woman.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 12, 2014)

Why do you need to prove your love to them?


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## Jet Shield (Mar 12, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> What are you going to do about the reindeer poop?



Nothing. It'll just fertilize the roof.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 12, 2014)

It is my understanding that goats can and do eat certain mosses.  Which means you might have feta, cabrito and leather as byproducts.

OTOH, they might crop too closely...


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 12, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> What are you going to do about the reindeer poop?




fertilizer for the moss


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## Kramodlog (Mar 13, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Why do you need to prove your love to them?



They often had doubts about my fidelity and sexual orientation.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 13, 2014)

goldomark said:


> They often had doubts about my fidelity and sexual orientation.



That's still not a reason to have to prove your "love."


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## Kramodlog (Mar 13, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> That's still not a reason to have to prove your "love."



What is proving love for you? So we can be on the same page.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 13, 2014)

goldomark said:


> What is proving love for you? So we can be on the same page.



First, you have to ask yourself what do you mean by "love?"


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## Kramodlog (Mar 13, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> First, you have to ask yourself what do you mean by "love?"



It is the desire to let a woman sit on your face so she can lay her eggs in your brain.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 13, 2014)

goldomark said:


> It is the desire to let a woman sit on your face so she can lay her eggs in your brain.




come on dude, grandma rule, please.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 13, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> come on dude, grandma rule, please.



Why would you want someone's grandmother to do that? You, sir, are disgusting. Stop it. Stop it right now.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 14, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Why would you want someone's grandmother to do that? You, sir, are disgusting. Stop it. Stop it right now.




What, are you . . .Aw, never mind.


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## Stormonu (Mar 14, 2014)

What do you do during the winter?


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 14, 2014)

Stormonu said:


> What do you do during the winter?



[sblock=Same thing I do during the summer]



Miami winters aren't much different, really.
[/sblock]


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## Kramodlog (Mar 14, 2014)

Stormonu said:


> What do you do during the winter?



Wind turbine. There is more wind during winter. Plus your pee can produce electricity and there are initiaties for poo.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 14, 2014)

<!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->@_*Homicidal_Squirrel*_<!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention --> , it looks like you work for the department of conservation and _*WILDLIFE*_!


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Mar 14, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Wind turbine. There is more wind during winter. Plus your pee can produce electricity and there are initiaties for poo.



So these green homes will basically be toliets where pooping, peeing, and farting are they way to generate power to watch tv?


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 14, 2014)

[MENTION=55961]goldomark[/MENTION], what if they figure out a way to use the moss as a form of non silly-con memory, would that eventually evolve into memory moss?


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## Kramodlog (Mar 14, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> So these green homes will basically be toliets where pooping, peeing, and farting are they way to generate power to watch tv?



Basically making the US energy independent. Half of the pieces of the puzzle are already in place. Watching TV.



Scott DeWar said:


> <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->@_*goldomark*_<!-- END TEMPLATE: dbtech_usertag_mention -->, what if they figure out a way to use the moss as a form of non silly-con memory, would that eventually evolve into memory moss?



Obliviax?


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 16, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Basically making the US energy independent. Half of the pieces of the puzzle are already in place. Watching TV.
> 
> 
> Obliviax?




hey,that's a top secret code name for the . . . . .uh . . . . .a uh project!


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## Nellisir (Mar 17, 2014)

goldomark said:


> Another added benefit is that green roofs reduce the heat island effect, meaning less energy is needed to cool buildings/houses.



The overall costs of green roofs pretty much make them a luxury/vanity project right now, unless you're looking at some kind of water filtration use (in which case you're probably still better off going with mechanical system). White roofs are considerably more efficient at reducing heat, specifically.  Green roofs do have a nice multi-functional capacity (heat reduction, water filtration and absorbtion, pollution reduction, aesthetic considerations) but right now the added cost of construction, installation, and maintenance isn't offset sufficiently.  :/

Doesn't mean I might not put one on the next playhouse I build, though.  

Edit: There are times when the cost is worthwhile: New York City's stormwater system has a fabulously tiny margin (1/10th of an inch of rainfall, apparently) before it overloads and starts dumping sewage into the river.  So NYC is very interested in anything that reduces runoff.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 17, 2014)

I know that ny,ny and other large cities are recognizing rooftop garden - have been for a decade at least.


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## Nellisir (Mar 18, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> I know that ny,ny and other large cities are recognizing rooftop garden - have been for a decade at least.



Yeah, our department head always does his studios in NYC, and roof-top gardens and/or other means of controlling runoff from a site are major factors.  NYC wants more green, but they also have serious water runoff issues (as I said above) that are the real driver. Anything that traps water and keeps it out of the stormwater system is desirable.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 19, 2014)

roof top gardens create oxygen, reduce runoff, if food gardens, then food too. three way win, unless you are 



Spoiler



a mobster, then a 4th win with a way to make a body disappear


.

so is that why there are water towers, to trap water run off?


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## Nellisir (Mar 20, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> so is that why there are water towers, to trap water run off?



You mean water storage tanks on tops of buildings? Those are usually to provide pressurized gravity-fed water to a building, which is nice when the power goes out and particularly in case of a fire.  They're typically refilled by pumps from city water.  There's not enough regular and sustained rainfall to use it as a reliable water source for drinking water, I think.  You can catch rainwater and direct it into a grey-water system to supplement city water for flushing toilets & etc; I think that's what most people talk about now. Whether or not it actually gets done is another question.

A blue-roof system is another option; you could just capture the rainwater and allow it to evaporate, or do a controlled release so the system isn't overwhelmed.

The storm drains and sewer systems in NYC are interconnected, so storm water goes to the sewer treatment plant. In a rain event, the treatment plants can't handle the additional volume, and it gets shunted straight out into the river.  It's an old design; not desirable for obvious reasons.

"A significant blue roof pilot project intended to evaluate the potential of the systems for mitigating combined sewer overflow impacts was conducted between 2010 and 2012 by the New York City Department of Environmental Protection. The NYCDEP blue-roof projects are the first to utilize a novel passive blue roof tray design developed by Geosyntec Consultants which relies on the lateral transitivity of non-woven filter fabric for drawdown control in a full scale pilot. Monitoring of these systems has demonstrated their performance as an effective means for mitigation peak flows and alteration of timing in combined sewer systems." (Blue roofs, Wikipedia)


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 20, 2014)

Ah, got it, nice and handy to have I bet. gray water is a good idea, if you can be sure no one drinks from the stool.


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## Nellisir (Mar 20, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> Ah, got it, nice and handy to have I bet. gray water is a good idea, if you can be sure no one drinks from the stool.



If you're filling your bottle from the porcelain throne, I think it's kinda on you.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Mar 20, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> Ah, got it, nice and handy to have I bet. gray water is a good idea, if you can be sure no one drinks from the stool.




[video=youtube;R25Eflr0oJ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25Eflr0oJ8&sns=em[/video]

But seriously, folks:

http://kxan.com/2014/02/28/texas-city-may-get-recycled-sewer-straight-from-tap/


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 20, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> If you're filling your bottle from the porcelain throne, I think it's kinda on you.






Dannyalcatraz said:


> [video=youtube;R25Eflr0oJ8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R25Eflr0oJ8&sns=em[/video]
> 
> But seriously, folks:
> 
> http://kxan.com/2014/02/28/texas-city-may-get-recycled-sewer-straight-from-tap/




you mean like Bear G. would do? I thiking more like what a homeless person might do.


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## Nellisir (Mar 20, 2014)

Scott DeWar said:


> you mean like Bear G. would do? I thiking more like what a homeless person might do.




Are there many places in NYC where a homeless person could use a toilet but not a sink?


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## Kramodlog (Mar 20, 2014)

Well, NY is pretty much a roofless toilet, not many outdoor sinks, though.


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## Scott DeWar (Mar 20, 2014)

I never have been to NYC, so I wouldn't know. I just see the homeless here in Nashville Tn. and some might be just that desperate.


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## Nellisir (Apr 12, 2014)

OK, so in summary, I'm wrong.

Wal-Mart just published the results of their study comparing white & green roofs, using stores where the two techniques were tested side-by-side, and green roofs were the clear winner. Given that Wal-Mart currently uses white roofs on their new projects, and just how huge Wal-Mart is, this is a potentially very big deal.

http://www.nxtbook.com/dawson/greenroofs/lam_2014spring/#/28

Applicable to the discussion about rainwater..."Of the 100 precipitation events studied, the green roofs retained an average of 74% (80%-90% of small storms and 60% of the largest storms). Peak runoff from the green roof was delayed 1.25 - 3.25 hours from the rainfall peak, and the rate was 50% - 85% lower than the precipitation peak rate (average 65%)."

Edit: These are extensive green roofs, ie sedums and grasses. Designed for low-weight, high retention, low maintenance. An intensive green roof, that might host gardens & etc, is more work.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Apr 13, 2014)

Very interesting. I'm surprised Wal-Mart would have done this study. They don't seem like a company that would use green tech.


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## Kramodlog (Apr 13, 2014)

It is good PR and not the same investment as paying all their employees a decent wage.


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## Nellisir (Apr 13, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Very interesting. I'm surprised Wal-Mart would have done this study. They don't seem like a company that would use green tech.



If it's cheaper, why not? They're just following the money. White roofs are cheaper than black roofs. Green roofs are cheaper than white roofs.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Apr 13, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> If it's cheaper, why not? They're just following the money. White roofs are cheaper than black roofs. Green roofs are cheaper than white roofs.



True, and if it was any other company, I wouldn't be surprised. However, I would think that going with a green roof would change the image that is put off by Wal-Mart. A green roof is something that you would expect from some store like Whole Foods, which has shoppers that aren't constantly looking for cheap stuff.


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## Nellisir (Apr 13, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> True, and if it was any other company, I wouldn't be surprised. However, I would think that going with a green roof would change the image that is put off by Wal-Mart. A green roof is something that you would expect from some store like Whole Foods, which has shoppers that aren't constantly looking for cheap stuff.



I think people are a little more flexible than that; if Wal-Mart does green roofs, they don't assume that the tree-huggers are good, they assume that wal-mart has figured out some advantage to it. Even if it was true, it's not something they need to advertise. Extensive roof systems are sedums (succulents) and grasses, low plants usually not more than a foot high. It's just not obvious unless you're looking down on the roof.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Apr 13, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> I think people are a little more flexible than that; if Wal-Mart does green roofs, they don't assume that the tree-huggers are good, they assume that wal-mart has figured out some advantage to it.



Oh, I disagree, especially considering the typical Wal-Mart shopper.



> Even if it was true, it's not something they need to advertise. Extensive roof systems are sedums (succulents) and grasses, low plants usually not more than a foot high. It's just not obvious unless you're looking down on the roof.



I'm pretty sure that news outlets would be glad to advertise for Wal-Mart regarding the green roofs. This would be especially true in some of the smaller towns where there is a Wal-Mart. A couple of years ago, a friend told me about having gone to visit some family in South Carolina, if I remember correctly, in some small town. He was hanging out with his cousins on a Saturday night, and he wanted to go out. They told him to get dressed, and they all got dressed up as if they were going to a club. He figured they would go to a club somewhere. Instead they took him to a Wal-Mart because that was the place to go to on a Saturday night. I told that story to one of my GF's friend's wife, and her response was "Hey, that's like my town." She came from some place in Louisiana. Any way, the point is that in those towns, if there is a significant change in the place that everyone goes to, it's going to make the news.


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## Nellisir (Apr 13, 2014)

Yeah, but in those towns in particular, it's a captive audience. They've got no where else to go but Wal-Mart, so Wal-Mart can do as it likes.

Anyways, the stuff inside is still cheap. They're not going to go somewhere else to pay more just because Wal-Mart has crap growing on the roof. That just makes it more like home.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Apr 14, 2014)

Eh... I don't know about that. Even in those towns, people may be willing to travel further away to get their cheap stuff.


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## Nellisir (Apr 14, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Eh... I don't know about that. Even in those towns, people may be willing to travel further away to get their cheap stuff.



That's a Wal-Mart too.

I get what you're trying to say, but since Wal-Mart is doing it, it's a settled point.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Apr 14, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> That's a Wal-Mart too.



Sometimes, but not always.



> I get what you're trying to say, but since Wal-Mart is doing it, it's a settled point.



Are they actually doing it, though? I mean, yes, they conducted this study, but are they going to actually start changing their store roofs to green roofs?


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## Nellisir (Apr 14, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Are they actually doing it, though? I mean, yes, they conducted this study, but are they going to actually start changing their store roofs to green roofs?




I doubt they'll retrofit. Going forward, it'll depend on whether it's cost-effective or not for that site. The Portland (?) site had basically an immediate return on investment (probably reflecting local incentives & etc), so it makes sense. In other cases, maybe not. They're already doing white roofs for all new sites.

I really don't see this as a big deal image-wise for Wal-Mart.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Apr 14, 2014)

Nellisir said:


> I doubt they'll retrofit. Going forward, it'll depend on whether it's cost-effective or not for that site. The Portland (?) site had basically an immediate return on investment (probably reflecting local incentives & etc), so it makes sense. In other cases, maybe not. They're already doing white roofs for all new sites.



Interesting. I think there is supposed to be a new Wal-Mart in the downtown Miami area, which a lot of people were angry about, but the city commissioners were bought off decided to let it go up regardless of the people protesting it. I wonder if they will go with a white or green roof. 


> I really don't see this as a big deal image-wise for Wal-Mart.



I think that'll depend on where they set up new stores. In a place like Portland, it'll probably enhance their image. In a place like inbred county Mississippi it'll probably be less than good for their image. I'm betting they will go with the white roofs for stores built in those areas.


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