# Races With Wisdom Bonus And No LA - Possible?



## Nazhkandrias (Sep 29, 2007)

Alright, I've been penning up a society of Druidic creatures. They mostly keep to uncivilized marshes, not necessarily out of lack of intelligence, but from a conscious choice to embrace a simpler, more natural lifestyle. Naturally, favored classes will be wilderness-based (maybe Druid or Ranger), but I've had some inner conflicts concerning racials, especially ability adjustments. A penalty to Charisma seems appropriate, due to the reclusive, introspective nature of the race, and I was thinking a penalty to Dexterity due to physical build (I might be publishing this in the future, so I won't give details). I was wondering, would a Wisdom bonus be appropriate here, for an LA +0 creature? It's just that mental bonuses can really be an issue, since they give huge advantages to casters, and I can't think of any LA +0 races that have mental bonuses period (save for Gray Elves, but that's for Intelligence). To simplify it, this was what I had in mind...

Wilderness-Based Race

- +2 Wis, -2 Dex, -2 Cha
- Medium, 20 ft. land speed, maybe swim speed of 10-20 ft.?
- Low-light vision.
- Very small natural armor bonus (maybe +1 or +2).
- Decent Hold Breath ability.
- +4 to Swim (if no swim speed is added), +2 Survival, +1 to Knowledge (nature) (+2 if swim speed is used). 
- Favored Class - Either Druid or Ranger, haven't made up my mind yet. Barbarian doesn't seem likely.

This is just a rough draft, but does it seem like it wouldn't cross into the LA +1 category? I tried to balance out the Wisdom bonus with a penalty to Dexterity and Charisma, to ensure that these guys won't make beastly (good is OK, but beastly is not) Druids or Rangers (that Dexterity hurts) or Clerics (since Charisma is pretty important, especially with Turn-related feats, and the Dexterity hurts anybody). As for the other stuff, I figured that the skill bonuses aren't too big of a deal, although they do complement Druid and Ranger nicely. Low-light is pretty standard, and the 20-ft. speed seems to balance out most of the other issues. So, is this currently overpowered (what could balance it)? Underpowered (what could I afford to add)?


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## nittanytbone (Sep 29, 2007)

Why not use a LA+0 variant off of lizard folk?

Or even just use Lizard Folk.  LA isn't nearly as bad for NPCs as it is for PCs.

For example, a Lizardfolk Warrior 2/Druid 2 is only CR 4.  And he has 2 racial HD, 2 Warrior HD, and 2 Druid HD.

If they are middle aged, then they get a handy +1 to all mental stats.  The bonuses they get to physical ability scores offset the penalties from aging.


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## Nazhkandrias (Sep 29, 2007)

Well, I won't lie, the race I have in mind is very similar to Lizardfolk, but flavorwise, they're more like a more societally advanced form of Lizardfolk. Plus, I'm trying to avoid Racial HD here. What I'm looking to create is an easy-to-play from level 1 (no HD, no LA) race for players who want to go for a serene people, freed from the corruptions of humanity and civilization. Lizardfolk sort of belong in the wilderness (low Int, survivalist view on life), whereas my race just chooses to be there, for spiritual reasons. Plus, rather than making them Lizardfolk, I'm curious to see how they will INTERACT with Lizardfolk. Finally, the options I put above are just concerning mechanics. The race will have a few other features for flavor, which I will not include here (since I might be publishing this), but I assure you, they won't be very significant at all. Just cool.


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## akbearfoot (Sep 29, 2007)

Do you intend for them to be wise but dull and clumsy?  Doesen't strike me as very efficient for a race to evolve into something thats naturally clumsy and slow and happens to have a favored class(maybe at least) that specializes in archery?

I'd say make it +2wis -2Int -2cha, to represent their spiritual nature.  They pass on knowlege by word of mouth, tribal stories etc, rather than writing all their knowlege into books for studying...and due to their strange appearance or seperation from 'civilized' society they've grown to be mildly xenophibic translating into -2charisma.


I'd say let them keep their 30ft movement, and give them a 20ft swim spead, but only if they are in light or no armor, similar to barbarians bonus movement...If they are in bulky armor or encumbered it impedes their natural abilities....20 ft move sucks hardcore just ask any of the smallfolk.  

Is a natural armor bonus that important to you?  I'd say drop it...the fact that you dont want them to have racial hitdice sort of says they are not meant to be tougher or more robust than normal.

They'd get the normal racial bonus to swim(I forget but IIRC its 8 normally)  Any more racial boni and it seems ot be getting a little overpowered for a +0.  The Hold breath ability is hardly ever likely to come up, and it's more a flavor ability imo so that's fine.

Low light vision is good, and makes sense I spose.  You could probably get away with it though.


If you wanted to give them some sort of vulnerability...say to cold for instance(maybe they are cold blooded)  Like +2 damage per die from cold based attacks, then you could get away with some of those other racial bonuses...+2survival +2knowlege(nature) (basically a virtual feat) and it would put it back down closer to a solid +0.


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> I was wondering, would a Wisdom bonus be appropriate here, for an LA +0 creature?



 No, never. Same for Int and Cha bonuses.

There probably are some somewhere, in a splatbook or monster manual, but they're not balanced due to how D&D 3.x handles spellcasting.

Cheers, -- N


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## Nazhkandrias (Sep 29, 2007)

akbearfoot said:
			
		

> Do you intend for them to be wise but dull and clumsy? Doesen't strike me as very efficient for a race to evolve into something thats naturally clumsy and slow and happens to have a favored class(maybe at least) that specializes in archery?



No, I was going for in-tune with their surroundings and nature (so yes, wise), but not so much clumsy as ponderous and deliberate. They just move on a slightly slower scale than other races, sort of like nature itself (I intend to give long lifespans to complement this). Plus, Rangers don't necessarily need to specialize in archery. Odds are, most of them would focus on Two-Weapon Fighting, or perhaps an additional style created with their abilities in mind. As for Charisma, I was thinking that they aren't necessarily xenophobic as introverted and a little withdrawn. Silence is golden, and sometimes talking gets in the way of thinking or observing. I was seriously considering giving a penalty to Intelligence, as per your suggestion, but it just didn't fit with the view I had of them. They aren't unintelligent, and while they might not have the most elaborate written tradition, they're still as capable as anybody when it comes to cognitive thinking and learning. It sort of fits into my "outcasts by choice" image.



			
				Nifft said:
			
		

> No, never. Same for Int and Cha bonuses.



Hmm, what a shame. It seems so... limiting to have that being a fact of life. I guess that I was hoping to be the first. Ah well, it might be acceptable under certain circumstances, and these guys still make good NPCs. Still, there has to be SOME way to make this work. Any other ideas out there?


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> Hmm, what a shame. It seems so... limiting to have that being a fact of life. I guess that I was hoping to be the first. Ah well, it might be acceptable under certain circumstances, and these guys still make good NPCs. Still, there has to be SOME way to make this work. Any other ideas out there?



 Yeah, it's very annoying. SW Saga doesn't have this problem, thanks to the way "magic" works. But in D&D, being a primary spellcaster means only caring about one stat (and Con, and maybe Dex).

Suggestion: racial substitution levels for whatever classes you want them to be good at, like Druid and Ranger.

Cheers, -- N


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## Hypersmurf (Sep 29, 2007)

Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> It's just that mental bonuses can really be an issue, since they give huge advantages to casters, and I can't think of any LA +0 races that have mental bonuses period (save for Gray Elves, but that's for Intelligence).




I think you're after Wisdom Elves.

They're an obscure Elven subrace, named after the fact that they get a Wisdom bonus.  (All the other words in the English language had already been used for other elven subraces, hence the unoriginal name.)

-Hyp.


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## Zurai (Sep 29, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> But in D&D, being a primary spellcaster means only caring about one stat (and Con, and maybe Dex).




Favored Soul. Archivist. Warmage. There are more split-stat primary casters than there are single-stat ones, actually.

Wizard, Sorceror, Cleric, and Druid are the only SAD full casters that I know of.


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> Wizard, Sorceror, Cleric, and Druid are the only SAD full casters that I know of.



 Funny how those seem to crop up in so many games.

(But also see Psion, Wilder, and Erudite.)

Cheers, -- N


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I think you're after Wisdom Elves.



 Be careful amigo. This is the forum where people occasionally take you seriously.

Cheers, -- N


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## Zurai (Sep 29, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Funny how those seem to crop up in so many games.
> 
> (But also see Psion, Wilder, and Erudite.)
> 
> Cheers, -- N




True, I forgot about psionics - I'll give you that. No one around here plays psions (not really because it's banned, just not many interested in them).

I wasn't contesting your point (though I don't agree with it), but rather your presentation. As I said, there are more split-stat/MAD primary casters than there are SAD ones; thus, your assertion that "being a primary spellcaster" means you only ever care about one stat is provably false.


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Zurai said:
			
		

> I wasn't contesting your point (though I don't agree with it), but rather your presentation. As I said, there are more split-stat/MAD primary casters than there are SAD ones; thus, your assertion that "being a primary spellcaster" means you only ever care about one stat is provably false.



 Okay, being a primary spellcaster in the SRD. Happy?

 -- N


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## Slaved (Sep 29, 2007)

There is nothing inherantly wrong with having a +0 level adjustment race with a +2 in any of the six base statistics. Each statistic is powerful in its own way.

Classes that could benefit from a higher casting statistic the most tend to have the lowest hit dice as well. That generally means that constitution and dexterity are very important, they might even be more important than the primary casting statistic!

Is a +2 to a casting statistic more powerful than +2 to dexterity or strength? Each for classes that use those statistics of course.


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## frankthedm (Sep 29, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> There is nothing inherantly wrong with having a +0 level adjustment race with a +2 in any of the six base statistics.



For LA+0, there is a problem. All characters have the option to age themselves. Another mental bump onto that does quickly become _too good_.


> 1.  At middle age, -1 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
> 2. At old age, -2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
> 3. At venerable age, -3 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.


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## Moon-Lancer (Sep 29, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> For LA+0, there is a problem. All characters have the option to age themselves. Another mental bump onto that does quickly become _too good_.




What if aging was not an option. Would said race still need a LA?


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> What if aging was not an option. Would said race still need a LA?



 Yes. It's hard to get a +1 bonus to spell DCs. Giving that AND bonus spells is too much.

Consider the difference between a Human spellcaster (who uses his bonus feat to take Spell Focus) and a Wisdom Elf who gains a +1 bonus to all spell DCs.

Cheers, -- N


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## Slaved (Sep 29, 2007)

frankthedm said:
			
		

> For LA+0, there is a problem. All characters have the option to age themselves. Another mental bump onto that does quickly become _too good_.




How and when does it become too good?


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## Slaved (Sep 29, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Yes. It's hard to get a +1 bonus to spell DCs. Giving that AND bonus spells is too much.
> 
> Consider the difference between a Human spellcaster (who uses his bonus feat to take Spell Focus) and a Wisdom Elf who gains a +1 bonus to all spell DCs.
> 
> Cheers, -- N




Conisder the difference between a human wizard with a 10 in constitution with a human wizard with an 8 in constitution and the toughness feat.

If you think that a +1 to spell difficulty classes is that bad you should look at what dexterity does!


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## Jhaelen (Sep 29, 2007)

Slaved said:
			
		

> If you think that a +1 to spell difficulty classes is that bad you should look at what dexterity does!



Now, I'm curious: What would that be?


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## Arkhandus (Sep 29, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> No, never. Same for Int and Cha bonuses.
> 
> There probably are some somewhere, in a splatbook or monster manual, but they're not balanced due to how D&D 3.x handles spellcasting.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



......Except, y'know, in the Forgotten Realms.  And in the core Monster Manual. :\ 



			
				3.5 SRD monsters section said:
			
		

> Gray Elf
> Taller and grander in physical appearance than others of their race, gray elves have a reputation for being aloof and arrogant (even by elven standards). They have either silver hair and amber eyes or pale golden hair and violet eyes. They prefer clothing of white, silver, yellow, or gold, with cloaks of deep blue or purple.
> 
> Gray Elf Traits (Ex)
> ...





You can houserule them away, but you can't say that they aren't official WotC LA+0 sources.  So it's not at all unprecedented (just not something WotC is willing to replicate very often; I think there was a race in Magic of Incarnum or somewhere else that was LA +0 with a mental ability score bonus, but I can't recall since I don't have the book myself.


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## Quartz (Sep 29, 2007)

Why are you giving them a bonus to Wis in the first place? They're not notably wiser in your OP. Being 'closer to nature' is not in itself a wiser choice than urbanisation, merely a different one. Indeed, some might say it's indicative of low wisdom.


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## Nazhkandrias (Sep 29, 2007)

OK, got a lot to cover here, so here goes...



			
				Quartz said:
			
		

> Why are you giving them a bonus to Wis in the first place? They're not notably wiser in your OP. Being 'closer to nature' is not in itself a wiser choice than urbanisation, merely a different one. Indeed, some might say it's indicative of low wisdom.



Wisdom also indicates perception and harmony with the world around you. I was aiming for that more than anything else. True, a wise character could also be "street-smart", but these are the meditate-under-the-waterfall-to-sharpen-all-of-your-senses kind of people. In the natural world, they have honed their senses and intuition to a razor-sharp level, coupled with sort of a natural knack for it in the first place. I could probably make an urban version of them, but I was looking for an earthy sort of flavor.



			
				Moon-Lancer said:
			
		

> What if aging was not an option. Would said race still need a LA?



Based upon what I'm hearing, probably yes. Besides, very few races exist in which "aging is not an option", and those are the Killoren (who can still advance to venerable, they just don't die) and Warforged (who only go to middle-aged). Plus, aging was going to be an important part of the culture, what with the elders and seers system and whatnot.



			
				Arkhandus said:
			
		

> You can houserule them away, but you can't say that they aren't official WotC LA+0 sources.



True, but I try not to inherently trust everything that Wizards put out.  Some of their stuff is pretty damn broken, and I can forsee a LOT of problems with Gray Elf Int-based casters, which is why our DM basically says "no". We have negotiated some things, like he was alright with a Gray Elven Bard or Rogue, but Wizards and Duskblades and the like are something that we typically try to avoid when it comes to Grays.



			
				Zurai said:
			
		

> Wizard, Sorceror, Cleric, and Druid are the only SAD full casters that I know of.



True, but if I'm not careful, the ONLY class that these guys will ever be played as is said SAD full casters based on Wisdom. What I'm trying to be careful of here is making these guys infinitely better at a specific class than anybody else. True, some races excel at certain classes, but there should never be an end-all, be-all, straight up best for every aspect of a class race. And an Intelligence bonus does just that for Wizard, and a Wisdom bonus (apparently, now that I look at it) does just that (to a slightly lesser degree) to Clerics and Druids.

So, in conclusion, I think that I've found a near-perfect solution that should solve this issue of spell DCs and bonus spells, while still maintaining the flavor of this class. Analyze this, praise it, and rip it apart, if you please. 

Wilderness-Based Race
- +2 Con, -2 Cha
- Medium humanoid creatures.
- 30 ft. land speed, 20 ft. swim speed.
- Low-light vision.
- +2 natural armor.
- Natural attack - 1 Bite (1d4).
- Hold Breath for 4 x Con modifier rounds.
- +8 to Swim, can run, avoid hazards, etc. etc.
- +2 to Knowledge (nature), +2 to Survival.
- Razor-Sharp Intuition (Ex) - +1 to ALL Wisdom checks and Wisdom-based skill checks.
- Favored Class - Ranger (male) or Druid (female). Males in this race are SIGNIFICANTLY larger and stronger, hence the more physical choice. Plus, I think that this could give some neat societal insights.

OK, the major change here is the Razor-Sharp Intuition feature (name subject to change without warning), which gives all of the effects of +2 to Wisdom EXCEPT for those pesky bonus spells and save DCs. I might also give them a few non-important flavor-based features, nothing to get in a fit about. So, critiques?


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## Darklone (Sep 29, 2007)

Kalamar has some variant gnome and halfling races with Wis bonuses... as well as elf races with Int bonuses.

I've had my share of halfling monk druids with Wis 25... 

Yet, I don't think they are too strong. Change dwarves to Con +2, Dex -2 and I don't care too much about the rest.


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Arkhandus said:
			
		

> ......Except, y'know, in the Forgotten Realms.  And in the core Monster Manual. :\



 Yes, that's what I said, in that bit you quoted. 



			
				Arkhandus said:
			
		

> You can houserule them away, but you can't say that they aren't official WotC LA+0 sources.



 Not adding options beyond what's in the PHB is hardly house ruling something away, it's merely refraining from house ruling something in. There are an truly large number of non-Core WotC rules which I don't add to my game -- am I guilty of House Crimes?



			
				Darklone said:
			
		

> I've had my share of halfling monk druids with Wis 25...



 That's an interesting case, because it may seem like he's boosting himself, but what he's really doing is nerfing his main strength in trade for getting a stronger defense. (Any time that a primary caster voluntarily reduces his caster level, he's done something sub-optimal. That's not to say it's wrong, just that we should compare strength against strength.)

If he were really interested in abusing that +2 Wisdom, what he'd do is Wild Shape into a tiny bird and cast offensive spells (which allow a saving throw).

Cheers, -- N


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## Mistwell (Sep 29, 2007)

> Not adding options beyond what's in the PHB is hardly house ruling something away, it's merely refraining from house ruling something in. There are an truly large number of non-Core WotC rules which I don't add to my game -- am I guilty of House Crimes?




Monster Manual is core.  Grey elves are in it.  Heck, even the Living Greyhawk campaign allows them.


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> Monster Manual is core.  Grey elves are in it.  Heck, even the Living Greyhawk campaign allows them.



 Yes, MM is core.

Giving players access to things that aren't in the PHB still a option, not a Core rule IMHO.

(Hell, if you want to get technical, Prestige Classes are an optional rule. Most people use 'em, including me, but that merely makes them a popular option -- not a Core rule.)

Cheers, -- N


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## Mistwell (Sep 29, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> Yes, MM is core.
> 
> Giving players access to things that aren't in the PHB still a option, not a Core rule IMHO.
> 
> ...




All rules are optional.

You said "There are an truly large number of non-Core WotC rules which I don't add to my game", and I was pointing out that the thing you were discussing is Core.  Core has never meant "Just the PHB".


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## nittanytbone (Sep 29, 2007)

A bonus to CON and penalty to something else (a la gnomes) works ok if you allow the aging rules.  CON is the most important stat to many casters after their prime requisite, and +2 can offset the pain of starting at a more advanced age.


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> All rules are optional.



 Nah.



			
				Mistwell said:
			
		

> You said "There are an truly large number of non-Core WotC rules which I don't add to my game", and I was pointing out that the thing you were discussing is Core.  Core has never meant "Just the PHB".



 Well, my point is a bit more subtle than that.

I'm saying there are things in Core which are not options for Core PCs. In other words, they are "in Core", but giving them to PCs is not Core.

Just like there are guidelines for making new magic items in Core -- but new magic items are not Core.

Cheers, -- N


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## Nazhkandrias (Sep 29, 2007)

Mistwell said:
			
		

> All rules are optional.



Well, technically, yes, but the notion of that keeps me up at night. 

DM: Guess what, everybody! Death is houseruled away!
PCs: Yaaay!
DM: ...For monsters too!
PCs: Eeerrrmm!!!
DM: And, instead of rolling dice, we'll determine skill checks and attack rolls through... INTERPRETIVE DANCE!!!

...

Just poking a little fun, that's all.


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## Darklone (Sep 29, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> That's an interesting case, because it may seem like he's boosting himself, but what he's really doing is nerfing his main strength in trade for getting a stronger defense. (Any time that a primary caster voluntarily reduces his caster level, he's done something sub-optimal. That's not to say it's wrong, just that we should compare strength against strength.)
> 
> If he were really interested in abusing that +2 Wisdom, what he'd do is Wild Shape into a tiny bird and cast offensive spells (which allow a saving throw).



Nowadays your avatar reminds me of the Anita Blake vampire killer series.... stuffed penguins 

The halfling in question was 2 levels behind most of the rest of the group anyhow... since he was a replacement char. Still, as soon as he got Wildshape (Large) and the non-errataed Animal Growth, he rocked the dancefloor... battlefield, I mean. Partially because his worst rolled attribute was a 14... IIRC that's about a CR+2 for good stats, so he was on par with the rest of the group. 

Besides, after 8 melee druids in my groups: I am not so sure that one level monk hurts a melee wildshaper. Rather the contrary, IMX it gives them a horribly strong boost for the minor drawback to be on par with a sorcerer for highest spell levels known. Not that they cast too much anyhow. 

That char was in action till level 14... so I can imagine at higher levels he'll be a bit worse. For low levels though? Large and huge animals with AC 30+ and the usual animal attack routines. Not good for the BBEGs pet dragon.



			
				Nazhkandrias said:
			
		

> DM: And, instead of rolling dice, we'll determine skill checks and attack rolls through... INTERPRETIVE DANCE!!!



I gotta game again with these girls ...


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## Nifft (Sep 29, 2007)

Darklone said:
			
		

> Nowadays your avatar reminds me of the Anita Blake vampire killer series.... stuffed penguins



 Erp!



			
				Darklone said:
			
		

> Besides, after 8 melee druids in my groups: I am not so sure that one level monk hurts a melee wildshaper.



 I don't disagree. It's just that at a certain point, melee becomes your last resort rather than your first choice.

It's just so much less messy throw down a _wall of thorns_ and a Quickened _entangle_, while your Wizard buddy throws down a _dimension lock_ and then an _acid fog_, and the two of you toss in Sonic substituted _firestorm_s and _fireball_s.  Less wear & tear on the fur coat.

Cheers, -- N


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## werk (Oct 1, 2007)

Nifft said:
			
		

> ... Sonic substituted _firestorm_s and _fireball_s.




Sonic was removed from the list of subable energies a long time ago...probably for this reason or other situations similar.


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## Wolfwood2 (Oct 1, 2007)

This is in the Rules forum and not the House Rules forum, so it should be said that there's nothing in the game rules *prohibiting* a +0 LA race with a wisdom bonus.  Guidelines in the DMG and elsewhere advise that this is the sort of thing that needs careful thinking, but race design is a DM call.

Myself, I don't think it's that big of a deal.  +1 to spell DCs and an extra bonus spell is nice, but it's not so nice as to completely outcompete other races.


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## werk (Oct 1, 2007)

Wolfwood2 said:
			
		

> Myself, I don't think it's that big of a deal.  +1 to spell DCs and an extra bonus spell is nice, but it's not so nice as to completely outcompete other races.




I tend to agree, but I also think there are some other considerations that should be taken into account.

If you are playing with rolled stats, as opposed to point buy, that +2 is already well within your deviation...allow it and don't think twice.  If you are playing low-point-buy, a +2 to a prime stat can be a much bigger deal.

I'd allow it, personally, as I already allow Cha elves and Int elves...but I'd probably require that the Wis race be an elf too...as a deterrent.


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## Mistwell (Oct 1, 2007)

So we have official sources that offer a +2 Wis and a +0 LA.  These include:

Lesser Asimar (Page 191 of Player's Guide to Faerun, also found in FRCS);
The Vanara (Oriental Adventures, 2 int and wis, -2 str);
Buomman have LA +0, +2 Wis, -2 Cha (Planar Handbook).

We also have core sources that allow +2 to a spellcasting stat at +0 LA, such as the Grey Elves.  And of course plenty of examples of +2 charisma at +0 LA.

I think that's plenty precedent to say WOTC does not consider it unbalanced to have a +2 to a spellcasting stat at a +0 LA, including Wisdom.


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