# help me build a bard



## lexoanvil (Sep 11, 2008)

my stats are
18
16
14
12
10
8

i want a bard who wont be useless in combat but still have alot of options in out of combat situations. as a near full time DM ive never been able to sit down and play a bard so any advice on good feats and what equipment i should use are also helpful. a prestige class that is very bardish would be cool if you know any.

also only WOTC books


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 11, 2008)

lexoanvil said:


> my stats are
> 18
> 16
> 14
> ...



 Snowflake Wardance from its Cold Outside (Frostburn) will let you add Cha to Hit. It costs Bardic Music uses but worth it.
That alone will let you be okay in combat if you get it.

Other than that, what weapons are you okay with? Spiked chain too much or okay?


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## lexoanvil (Sep 11, 2008)

Starbuck_II said:


> Snowflake Wardance from its Cold Outside (Frostburn) will let you add Cha to Hit. It costs Bardic Music uses but worth it.
> That alone will let you be okay in combat if you get it.
> 
> Other than that, what weapons are you okay with? Spiked chain too much or okay?



you feel the feat investment for spiked chain with bard would be worth it?
 other wise something more simple for wep would be better if its comparable.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 11, 2008)

Whip and Whip dagger (shared proficiency, bard effectively gets both) are very useful weapons for a Bard, and can work nicely for a disarm or trip build.

The only REQUIRED bard feat, if available, is Song of the Heart from the Eberron Campaign Setting.  Haunting Melody, same book, is pretty cool, too.

For equipment, look to Magic Item Compendium.  A crystal echoblade is a longsword that adds half your bard level to damage while your bardic music is playing.  A +1 market price enhancement you could put on that or a whip is harmonizing.  It picks up your bardic music after you stop performing it and carries it for 10 (?) rounds longer.

If you really want to focus on melee, there's two cool bard options.  One is a CWarrior prestige class that gives cool new songs and full BAB, the Warchanter.  Ask the DM to let the levels stack for the peuposes of inspire courage, which I think at the time of printing still didn't scale with Bard level.  It's a requirement for the class, so it's a reasonable request.  The other is multiclassing with Crusader or Warblade (Tome of Battle) and taking Song of the White Raven.  It's a useful multiclassing feat, and lets you start inspire courage as a swift action if in a White Raven stance.

There's lots of useful spells, the most useful being Inspirational Boost (Spell Compendium) for +1 to your current inspire courage use.


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## lexoanvil (Sep 11, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Whip and Whip dagger (shared proficiency, bard effectively gets both) are very useful weapons for a Bard, and can work nicely for a disarm or trip build.
> 
> The only REQUIRED bard feat, if available, is Song of the Heart from the Eberron Campaign Setting.  Haunting Melody, same book, is pretty cool, too.
> 
> ...



i like alot of your ideas would it be to much trouble to ask for you to list what i should do lvs 1-6(more if you have time to kill)? while im the 5th member of our group i dont want to punish my friends for playing a class im not very great at. im thinking about going long sword and whip as my main weps.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 11, 2008)

If I don't fall asleep first, sure.  But first I'd need to know what books/sources are open.


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## lexoanvil (Sep 11, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> If I don't fall asleep first, sure.  But first I'd need to know what books/sources are open.



any from WOTC


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## Dannyalcatraz (Sep 11, 2008)

Assuming the 18 gets stuck in Cha, a 16 Dex means you'll be fairly effective with ranged attacks and finesseable weapons.

So, take WeapFin and use a Rapier and Dagger as your main melee weapons, while picking a bow for your ranged weapon of choice (assuming you have the $$$).

Rapier & Dagger would work best with TWF, but that can be feat intensive if you want to go all the way with it.  For a Bard, I'd just take the TWF and be done with it.

Point Blank Shot and Precise shot are essential if you want to be an _effective_ sniper, but it isn't necessary for a _fun_ PC.  The group I'm adventuring with currently has 2 Clerics who insist on firing their X-Bows into melee at least once per skirmish, and neither currently has either feat.  Yes, the front-liners have been ploinked.  Its HI-larious.

A Whip (esp. a bladed or dagger version), OTOH, lets you strike from a distance without worrying about "firing into melee" because its a reach weapon, and it too can be used with TWF.  Since it, too, is finesse-able, using it TWF with a Rapier can be quite effective.

You can cast in Lt armor, so that feat from CompArc that boosts your armored spellcasting potential could be beneficial...if you get proficiency in a heavier armor.  Or you can save your ducats and eventually buy something in Mithril.

If you take the feat Devoted Performer, you can multiclass with Paladin and Bard.  Fun stuff!

Reach Spell lets you use your Cure spells- unique among arcane casters- at range by converting them into Rays.  Given your Dex, you ought to be able to keep your meatwall...er...comrades healthy on the front line.  Some of your other spells it would work for include Invisibility, Gaseous Form and Remove Curse. For a further boost, using Split Ray would double the effectiveness of those spells.  (I don't know that I'd do that, though- that's boosting your spells 3 levels, and you don't have that many levels to work with.  YMMV.)

Arcane Strike lets you convert spells into bonuses to attack and damage for your melee strikes.

Reserve feats let you set aside a spell of a specific kind supernatural power- usually some kind of attack- and a boost to caster levels for specific kinds of spells. Bonus, since the powers granted are supernatural, you don't have to worry about SR, ASF, grappling, etc.

If you wish to go a bit more whackadoo, you can take a couple of Feats in one of the Heritage lines.  The Celestial, Infernal and Draconic Heritage lines all contain feats that convert spell levels into some kind of attack power- usually an area effect attack.  Bonus, they're supernatural like the Reserve feats.

The last 3 options are more viable if you multiclass into a full-spellcasting arcane class that also uses Charisma, like the Sorcerer, Warmage, and Battle Sorcerer.  Reminder- the latter 2 are also armored spellcasters.

FWIW, don't forget to load up on Sonic spells- most critters don't stand up to them too well, and Eagle's Splendor (and its Mass version) doesn't _only_ work for you, but for any Paladin, Cleric, Sorcerer, Marshal, Wilder, etc. in your party.


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## green slime (Sep 11, 2008)

Now Dannys almost got me wishing I was playing a bard myself!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 12, 2008)

Sorry, did fall asleep.  Ok, I'll assume you want a melee fighting bard to serve as back up Fighter or even a replacement for one, based on the original post.  I'll do it with longsword, feel free to adjust to a more unique weapon later.

Stats: Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 8, Cha 18
Race: Human
Progression: Bard 6 --> Crusader 2 --> Bard x (if it goes to high levels, you may want to add two more Crusader levels towards the end for BAB +16 and a fourth attack)
Feats

Level 1: Force of Personality (cha instead of wis on mind-affecting will saves; CAdv), Melodic Casting (Perform instead of Concentration, cast spells and UMD while performing; CMage)
Level 3: Song of the Heart (+1 bonus/DC for all musics, basically; ECS)
Level 6: * Multiple options
Levels 7-8: Crusader 2.
Level 9: Song of the White Raven (multiclassing feat, swift inspire courage; ToB)

* (Note, all of these are good feats to have eventually)
Option 1: Haunting Melody (ECS) - Take the Never Outnumbered skill trick and keep intimidate maxed out.  Enjoy making scores of enemies shaken with the melody, then wading in and scaring them off with intimidate (fear stacks), granting yourself and allies AoO's as they flee for a round
Option 2: Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) - Requires perform (dance) ranks, lets you add cha to attack rolls on top of str.  If going this route, maybe work towards the Dervish prestige class.  Also, you can't use a shield with this feat, so you may want to go for Two Weapon Fighting.
Option 3: Battle Dancer (PH2) - Just generally useful, as long as you move 5 ft or attack it remains active, if you do both on any given round while your music is active, you get +2 attack.
Variant: If you don't have Tome of Battle, replace the Crusader levels with Paladin levels and Song of the White Raven with the Devoted Performer feat.  If you don't feel like doing alignment limbo, just use Paladin of Freedom (UA or here: Variant Character Classes :: d20srd.org) and save a feat.

Spells Known:
Level 0: Pick up Prestidigitation, Message, Detect Magic, and whatever else you like
Level 1: Pick up Inspirational Boost, Joyful Noise (SpC), Grease (just cause), and whatever else you like.  Consider Phantom Threat and Critical Strike (both SpC)
Level 2: Pick up Bladeweave, Sonorous Hum (SpC), Alter Self (if not banned, as it should be), and whatever else you like.  Consider Sonic Weapon, Mindless Rage, Battle Hymn, and Warcry (all SpC), and Mirror Image and Suggestion.

Maneuvers (5 known, 5 readied, 2 granted):
1 Vanguard Strike (DS, Strike)
1 Douse the Flames (WR, Strike)
2 Mountain Hammer (SD, Strike)
2 Shield Block (DS, Counter)
2 Battle Leader's Charge (DS, Strike)

Stances (2 known, RotM gained at Crusader 2):
1 Martial Spirit (DS) or 1 Leading the Charge (WR)
3 Roots of the Mountain (SD) (readied)

Gear: Work towards a Crystal Echoblade, make it +1, and add Harmonizing (all MIC), and at that point try to retrain Melodic Casting.  For armor, you want Mithral Breastplate.  Stats that need improving are cha, dex, con, and maybe str, basically in that order.

Skills: Perform (dance for Snowflake Wardance, oratory or singing otherwise), UMD, and Tumble are necessary, Intimidate, Bluff, and Diplomacy are nice to have.  Not much need for Concentration as long as you have Melodic Casting.  Since your int isn't high, consider trading bardic Knowledge for Jack of All Trades (basically, use half your bard level as fake ranks in skills if you have less actual ranks in them).


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## OneWinged4ngel (Sep 13, 2008)

lexoanvil said:


> my stats are
> 18
> 16
> 14
> ...




You know, it'd be helpful if you said something other than "I want to be effective."  Seriously, it's just polite to tell people what you want when you're telling them to spend their time building your character.  I can build a dragonfire TWF blender Song of the White Raven bard with 9th level maneuvers, or a gold standard buffer with 9th level spells and war weaver benefits, or something else altogether, but that's all useless if I don't know what the hell you want to accomplish.  "Very bardish" tells us absolutely nothing.  "Useful" tells us absolutely nothing.  You need to actually provide a concept and some image of what the hell you want your character to be other than "good" and "bard."  You need to put forth at least a minimum of effort yourself.


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## lexoanvil (Sep 13, 2008)

OneWinged4ngel said:


> You know, it'd be helpful if you said something other than "I want to be effective."  Seriously, it's just polite to tell people what you want when you're telling them to spend their time building your character.  I can build a dragonfire TWF blender Song of the White Raven bard with 9th level maneuvers, or a gold standard buffer with 9th level spells and war weaver benefits, or something else altogether, but that's all useless if I don't know what the hell you want to accomplish.  "Very bardish" tells us absolutely nothing.  "Useful" tells us absolutely nothing.  You need to actually provide a concept and some image of what the hell you want your character to be other than "good" and "bard."  You need to put forth at least a minimum of effort yourself.



 i  belive my original request was some cool feats and equipment for the reason i have no idea to start, considering i rarely get to be a PC. infact the first few posts did just that recomended several feats and weapon choices and we later went into more detail because the concept seemed really cool. infact the only post on this thread that hasnt been helpful to someone is yours.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 13, 2008)

Well, some more info would have been nice.  All I had to work on was assuming some generally useful melee bard, without even being sure that's what you want.

And if you've been DM up until now, have you never built classed NPC opponents?  The process is exactly the same, it shouldn't be a difficult transition.


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## lexoanvil (Sep 14, 2008)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Well, some more info would have been nice.  All I had to work on was assuming some generally useful melee bard, without even being sure that's what you want.
> 
> And if you've been DM up until now, have you never built classed NPC opponents?  The process is exactly the same, it shouldn't be a difficult transition.



  fair enough but i rarley use statted out npc's unless i plan to use them for awhile which is not often. and there is a considerable difference of stating out an npc and understand how to manipulate a classes mechanics to something on par with my munchkin teamates. only time ive ever seen a bard in action was when my girlfriend would play one and while she did loads of cool stuff in town and around the dungeon the second combat came around she was nowhere near in league with her party, i didnt want a repeat of that. i probly could have given more info on what i wanted but ill be honest i didnt know were to start. if this were a class i knew very well i would have very little problem telling you guys what i need,  also if this were an npc i would probly care alot less given the time ill be playing a npc might be a few min, where this character i plan to play for close to a year so i wanted it done the right way. but in all honesty i came here originally for a quick starting point of what people in the past have found to work well. and i got some stellar posts from people of what looks like solid advice.
so anyone who even sudgested a feat or two thank you alot your advice it has been fantastic.


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