# Dispel Magic & Permanency?



## Wolffenjugend (Feb 9, 2004)

Our wizard has a Tongues spell made permanent on himself. What happens when he has Dispel Magic cast on him? I couldn't find anything under Dispel Magic or Permanency.

I figure that the Dispel Magic could only temporarily suppress the Tongues spell since it has been made permanent. However, if the Permanency is dispelled, then does the Tongues go with it?


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## James McMurray (Feb 9, 2004)

The Tongues' duration is changed to permanent, thus a successful dispel removes it competely, as with any other permanent spell.

Many DMs out there treat permanencied spells as magic items, eaning they are oly suppressed for 1d4 rounds instea of dispelled fully. This is compeltely a house rule though.

Permanency is really better for NPCs than PCs, because of the requirement to be higher level than the caster in order to dipel it. PCs are usually lower level than the casters they fight. Its also a good way to give the NPC abilities without giving them magic items.


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## rkanodia (Feb 9, 2004)

Wolffenjugend said:
			
		

> Our wizard has a Tongues spell made permanent on himself. What happens when he has Dispel Magic cast on him? I couldn't find anything under Dispel Magic or Permanency.
> 
> I figure that the Dispel Magic could only temporarily suppress the Tongues spell since it has been made permanent. However, if the Permanency is dispelled, then does the Tongues go with it?




From the section of _permanency_ about making spells permanent on yourself:


> You cast the desired spell and then follow it with the permanency spell. You cannot cast these spells on other creatures. This application of permanency can be dispelled only by a caster of higher level than you were when you cast the spell.



So, if the enemy caster is higher level, he may very well lose the spell.  Personally I prefer to treat such spells more like magic items, vulnerable to any kind of dispel but only temporarily.  _Permanency_ costs a lot of xp; you should get some solid returns for that.


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## Vysirez (Feb 12, 2004)

rkanodia said:
			
		

> From the section of _permanency_ about making spells permanent on yourself:
> 
> So, if the enemy caster is higher level, he may very well lose the spell.  Personally I prefer to treat such spells more like magic items, vulnerable to any kind of dispel but only temporarily.  _Permanency_ costs a lot of xp; you should get some solid returns for that.




However permanency usually costs less exp then making an equivalent magic item, not to mention the fact it costs no gold. So if you treat permenant spells like magic items then you are making it pretty darn powerful. Unless you raise the exp cost for perming spells.


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## Epametheus (Feb 12, 2004)

Um, Permanancy costs significantly more XP than magic items do.

Ex:  A wand of Tongues at minimum caster level (it's a 2nd level spell, unless I'm having a brain fart), costs 180 XP.

Casting Permanancy on a Tongues spells costs _1500_ XP -- comparable to crafting enough wands to casts Tongues 400 times or so.


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## MiB (Feb 12, 2004)

*Permanency*

I'm also facing the very same problem with one of my characters. At first glance, almost any spell on the permanency list seems like a good addition to my characters abilities.

i have been considering the same thing that you name above, but also there are some more points that make Permanency interesting:

- It doesn't cost much time to cast a permanency spell. The wand above would take you 5 days to make. In some campaigns this can be an issue

- Permanent spells cost you no item slots, many items that do the same require one.

- To create a wand of tongues, you must have tongues in your spellbook (which is afterwards pretty useless), to make it permanent, you only need a scroll, because you only have to cast it once.

However, I still haven't persuaded myself to use permanency. Loosing 1000 XP or more to a single Dispel Magic seems a high risk. The spell I'd do first is See Invisibility. Arcane sight is very stylish, but too expensive, Detect magic can easily be replaced by a wand and Darkvision can be cast with an Extend Spell metamagic to last long enough.


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## Vysirez (Feb 12, 2004)

Epametheus said:
			
		

> Um, Permanancy costs significantly more XP than magic items do.
> 
> Ex:  A wand of Tongues at minimum caster level (it's a 2nd level spell, unless I'm having a brain fart), costs 180 XP.
> 
> Casting Permanancy on a Tongues spells costs _1500_ XP -- comparable to crafting enough wands to casts Tongues 400 times or so.





You are right about that. Donno why I was thinking things were cheaper. Though to be onest comparing it to a wand isnt the best comparason. A continuous effect tongues item would cost 600exp and 15k gold. So closer then the wand example but permanency is still less then the spell. So I have to say I think it might be better to treat them like magic items. As long as you are careful what spells you let be made permanent.


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## andargor (Feb 12, 2004)

I guess it is campaign dependent. For example, in our campaign both the party wizard and sorcerer have _Resistance_, _Arcane Sight_ and _Tongues_ permanent.

_Arcane Sight_ alone has saved us from many a scrap, and it has not yet been dispelled after 4 or 5 levels of usage. So we figure it was worth the cost and the risk. A good ROI is you will. 

Andargor


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## UltimaGabe (Feb 12, 2004)

I have a character who's going to be gaining the Permanency spell next level, and so I became interested in this as well- after all, I don't wanna spend a ton of XP on something that could just be Dispelled. However, I was looking at the spell description yesterday, and I noticed something that gave me quite a bit of hope (although not quite as much as I was hoping for). If you use Permanency to cast a spell on yourself, such as Tongues or Arcane Sight, it cannot be dispelled. If you cast it on someone else, however, it can. So that means I wouldn't have to worry about it getting dispelled, but if I cast a Permanent Girallon's Blessing plus a Permanent Fuse Arms on my Fighter Cohort to give him a huge strength bonus, it could very well be dispelled. I might wanna wait until higher levels to do that.


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## irdeggman (Feb 12, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> I have a character who's going to be gaining the Permanency spell next level, and so I became interested in this as well- after all, I don't wanna spend a ton of XP on something that could just be Dispelled. However, I was looking at the spell description yesterday, and I noticed something that gave me quite a bit of hope (although not quite as much as I was hoping for). If you use Permanency to cast a spell on yourself, such as Tongues or Arcane Sight, it cannot be dispelled. If you cast it on someone else, however, it can. So that means I wouldn't have to worry about it getting dispelled, but if I cast a Permanent Girallon's Blessing plus a Permanent Fuse Arms on my Fighter Cohort to give him a huge strength bonus, it could very well be dispelled. I might wanna wait until higher levels to do that.




I think you are misreading the description under permanency.  It says tha dispel magic works 'normally' on permanency spells cast on areas and other people but that it requires a caster with higher level than you to cast depsel magic on a permanency cast on yourself.  Dispel magic (normally) has the _potential_ to dispel any spell or effect cast regardless of the level of the character casting the dispel magic, it just has an incrementally more difficult DC to make to be successful.


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## Wolffenjugend (Feb 12, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> If you use Permanency to cast a spell on yourself, such as Tongues or Arcane Sight, it cannot be dispelled. If you cast it on someone else, however, it can.




Where did you read that? The Permanency spell in the PH is pretty clear that a Permanency cast on yourself can be dispelled, but only if the dispeller is higher level than the person casting Permanency.


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## andargor (Feb 12, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> So that means I wouldn't have to worry about it getting dispelled, but if I cast a Permanent Girallon's Blessing plus a Permanent Fuse Arms on my Fighter Cohort to give him a huge strength bonus, it could very well be dispelled.




AFAIK, those spells are not on the list allowed from _Permanency_. Unless, of course, your DM allows it. If I remember, you have to pay for research costs if you want to apply _Permanency_ to spells that are not on the list.

Andargor


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## Kal Skid (Feb 12, 2004)

andargor said:
			
		

> AFAIK, those spells are not on the list allowed from _Permanency_. Unless, of course, your DM allows it. If I remember, you have to pay for research costs if you want to apply _Permanency_ to spells that are not on the list.
> 
> Andargor




Those spells are from Savage Species, and there is a list in that book with spells that can be made permanent.  Girallon's Blessing and Fuse Arms is on it.


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## James McMurray (Feb 12, 2004)

Tongues is a 3rd level spell for wizards. So for that wizard to make a constant, nonslotted item of tongues will cost:

SL 3 * CL 5 * 1.5 (duration) * 2000 (constant) * 2 (unslotted) = 90,000gp.

That's 45,000gp for materials and 3,600xp. Even if you make it slotted you're still paying 22,500gp and 1,800xp.

You end up spending much more gold and xp than you would making it permanent (1,500xp). In exchange you gain the ability to loan the item to your friend, and protection versus dispelling.

It might not be abad idea to allow a person to spend half the XP if they have the permanency take up an item slot.


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## andargor (Feb 12, 2004)

Kal Skid said:
			
		

> Those spells are from Savage Species, and there is a list in that book with spells that can be made permanent.  Girallon's Blessing and Fuse Arms is on it.




Sweet! Gotta check it out. 

Andargor


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## James McMurray (Feb 12, 2004)

UltimaGabe said:
			
		

> I have a character who's going to be gaining the Permanency spell next level, and so I became interested in this as well- after all, I don't wanna spend a ton of XP on something that could just be Dispelled. However, I was looking at the spell description yesterday, and I noticed something that gave me quite a bit of hope (although not quite as much as I was hoping for). If you use Permanency to cast a spell on yourself, such as Tongues or Arcane Sight, it cannot be dispelled. If you cast it on someone else, however, it can. So that means I wouldn't have to worry about it getting dispelled, but if I cast a Permanent Girallon's Blessing plus a Permanent Fuse Arms on my Fighter Cohort to give him a huge strength bonus, it could very well be dispelled. I might wanna wait until higher levels to do that.




If playing in FR you could get him a Spellblade for Greater Dispel Magic to make him immune to targetted dispels. Then, if you don't give him any flashy spells, but gie yourself some, you'll more ikely be targetted. To protect against area dispels cast a 4th or 5th level long duration spell on him, and purposefully set your caster level low on it when its cast. A Heightened Eure Elements (spell level 4, caster level 7) would provide a decent buffer, but I'm sure there are other options that ould also be useful in and of themselves.


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## Gilrion (Feb 12, 2004)

I agree, if you're spending XP it shouldn't be dispelled like a regular spell. Remember, a magical item may cost a bit more, but you have to target it specifically for the dispel to work. A area or targetted dispel (at yourself, plus all your other cast spells) will take out a permanent spell.

The way we use it is only higher caster level can dispel, and if it does, the spell is dispelled. However, you can cast the spell and permanency on yourself again at no XP cost at a later time. Personally, I would go with the magic item rule and suppress for 1d4 rounds, but this is another possibility, which my GM uses. Hope it helps.


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## Pyrex (Feb 12, 2004)

One option I've been considering (but haven't playtested yet) is that each successive time a mage makes the same spell permanent on the same target the XP cost is halved.  

i.e. the first time Bob makes _See Invisible_ permanent on himself it costs 1000xp.  Later, it's dispelled and he has to restore it.  This time it costs 500xp.  If it's dispelled again, he only has to pay 250xp to make it permanent a third time.  And so on.

This way the most the character will ever spend is twice the original XP cost.


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## UltimaGabe (Feb 12, 2004)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> I think you are misreading the description under permanency.  It says tha dispel magic works 'normally' on permanency spells cast on areas and other people but that it requires a caster with higher level than you to cast depsel magic on a permanency cast on yourself.  Dispel magic (normally) has the _potential_ to dispel any spell or effect cast regardless of the level of the character casting the dispel magic, it just has an incrementally more difficult DC to make to be successful.




Ah, my mistake. I read the last paragraph that says, "Spells cast on other creatures, objects, or locations (not on you) are vulnerable to dispel magic as normal." I had never used Permanency myself before, so I figured it was a change in 3.5 or something. Oops.


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## irdeggman (Feb 13, 2004)

This issue has just been addressed in Sage Advice from Dragon Issue #317

"What happens when a personal, permanent spell effect is dispelled? For example, a wizard uses the _permancy_ spell and pays 1,000 xp to make a _darkvision_ spell permanent on herself. If an enemy spellcaster successfully dispels the _darkvision_ spell, does the _darkvision_ effect return after 1d4 rounds, as it would if the wizard were using a magic item?"

'No, when a permanent spell is dispelled, the effect is gone. If the wizard in your example wants another permanent _darkvision_ effect, she has to cast _darkvision_ and _permanency_ again and spend another 1,000 xp.'

So basically it is not treated as a magic item and have its effect suppressed.  Which when looking back over the spell description, I can read more clearly now. So it is better to have a wand if possible because it is only suppressed and not cancelled and it is cheaper to create, if the character's have the time that is.


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## Inconsequenti-AL (Feb 13, 2004)

A house rule we used is that the 'maximum +' of a dispel must be over the caster level of the permenancy.

In other words a 13th level caster renders detect magic permenant. It cannot be dispelled with a simple Dispel magic (max +10 level bonus), no matter who casts the dispel. Need more powerful magic - i.e. greater dispel (+20 limit).


Pyrex, I like the half cost for recasting idea. Consider it stolen


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## Ferox4 (Feb 13, 2004)

Gilrion said:
			
		

> I agree, if you're spending XP it shouldn't be dispelled like a regular spell. Remember, a magical item may cost a bit more, but you have to target it specifically for the dispel to work. A area or targetted dispel (at yourself, plus all your other cast spells) will take out a permanent spell.




An area spell MAY take out a permanent spell. It all depends on the dice. Remember, once ONE spell has been taken away from a creature in an area dispel the spells ends (in regard to that creature). A targeted dispel will at least get a chance to dispel it.

I'm in the minority here, but i don't see any issue with permanent spells being dispelled. PCs are getting gobs of XP - I say burn em up if you want the permanent spell. It got dispelled? O well, sorry bout your luck. Its immediate, isn't that expensive and you are essentially unlimited with regard to slots for permanent spells. 

If you're severely limiting the amount of XP the PCs receive then perhaps some tweeking needs to be done. I award anywhere from 50-75% of normal XP and have dispelled a few permanencies without disrupting the game.


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## MerakSpielman (Feb 13, 2004)

irdeggman said:
			
		

> So basically it is not treated as a magic item and have its effect suppressed. Which when looking back over the spell description, I can read more clearly now. So it is better to have a wand if possible because it is only suppressed and not cancelled and it is cheaper to create, if the character's have the time that is.



Well, wands are great things, but can't hold anything higher than a level 4 spell. They also take an action to use, have to be held, can be stolen, etc... You can get captured, stripped, and thrown in jail and you'll still have your permenant spells going, if they didn't think to dispel you. They're always on, even in social situations where it might be considered a bit odd to start waving wands around. 

Also, wands only have 50 charges, and though they can be replaced many times over before approaching the cost of a Permenancy, they sometimes run out at the most annoying times, when a replacement is not handy.

They each have their pros and cons.


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## MiB (Feb 16, 2004)

*Area Dispel*

IIRC, area dispel starts top down, with the highest level spell in effect coming first. So you can at least "protect" your permanent spell with having a high level, long duration spell in place as well (I use Contingency and Energy Buffer).

Otherwise, you are completly right Ferox4, it's in the rules, so if a permanent spell becomes dispelled, you'll have to eat it. This thread is more about whether it is worth considering it when you are a PC.


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