# Cleric Playtest Summary



## Neonchameleon (Dec 1, 2022)

The big difference in the cleric is that they've reshuffled the early levels:

Channel Divinity is now level 1 and you get a heal (or harm) out of it as well as Turn Undead - Prof times per long rest
New feature at 2 - the Holy Order. This is a semi- mirror of the Warlock's Pact Boon where you get to decide between heavy armour and martial weapons, an extra cantrip plus an extra channel on short rest, or two knowledge skills with quasi-expertise
Domain at 3. It's been reshuffled a bit but the total of the Life Cleric is little different (other than they get their big healing channel divinity option at 6
The extra d8 damage is now part of the class and automatically works on both weapons and cantrips - you get it at 7
Other than that there's reshuffling and spell changes (resistance now works like new guidance, aid gets to cover a normal sized party (6 targets), spiritual weapon is now concentration, banishment's less fun and interesting).

Overall? I'm a huge fan of the class changes. I think that every one of the changes to the class is a good one and overall little has changed.  It's no longer an amazing dip, there's more variety thanks to the Holy Order, and a less overwhelming level 1.


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## Haplo781 (Dec 1, 2022)

Hey let's take the class that can already do everything and give them an extra d8 damage per round at level 7


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 1, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Hey let's take the class that can already do everything and give them an extra d8 damage per round at level 7



That was taken out of the subclasses. Every subclass currently gets an extra d8 to damage (either weapons or cantrips) at level 8. They've now just moved it out of the subclass and into the main class for One D&D.


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## Haplo781 (Dec 1, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> That was taken out of the subclasses. Every subclass currently gets an extra d8 to damage (either weapons or cantrips) at level 8. They've now just moved it out of the subclass and into the main class for One D&D.



That isn't better


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 1, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> That isn't better



It's a clerical change (pun intended). It changes nothing practical about the way clerics work but means that you don't get one of the same two abilities copy/pasted into every single subclass.


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## Haplo781 (Dec 1, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> It's a clerical change (pun intended). It changes nothing practical about the way clerics work but means that you don't get one of the same two abilities copy/pasted into every single subclass.



Currently you either get +1d8 on attacks _or_ cantrips. Now it's both. And moving it to the base class means every subclass gets a new ability.

It's power creep on a class that doesn't need it.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 1, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Currently you either get +1d8 on attacks _or_ cantrips. Now it's both. And moving it to the base class means every subclass gets a new ability.
> 
> It's power creep on a class that doesn't need it.



It's marginal power creep at best; currently if you don't get the +1d8 you don't use that attack option.

And no it doesn't mean that every subclass gets a new ability. The level 1 was so overloaded that the "new ability" the subclasses gain is their domain's custom channel divinity.


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## mellored (Dec 1, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Currently you either get +1d8 on attacks _or_ cantrips. Now it's both. And moving it to the base class means every subclass gets a new ability.
> 
> It's power creep on a class that doesn't need it.



You can either use your action to attack or cast a cantrip, not both.

It's also 1/turn.  So not even booming blade or quicken sorcerer would help.  It's a nerf to multi-attacks (war cleric)

So the only character this is a boost for is one who switches.  And they're still behind due to needing both Str and Wis.


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## OB1 (Dec 1, 2022)

Love the decoupling of god and domain.  On first glance this is a spectacularly executed revision of the Cleric.  And I love the new Guidance and Prayer of Healing spells.  

My guess on the 4 subclasses/domains when they come:
Life (Priest)
War (Warrior)
Knowledge (Expert)
Theurge (Mage)


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## Amrûnril (Dec 1, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Love the decoupling of god and domain.  On first glance this is a spectacularly executed revision of the Cleric.  And I love the new Guidance and Prayer of Healing spells.
> 
> My guess on the 4 subclasses/domains when they come:
> Life (Priest)
> ...




I feel like the War/Knowledge/Theurge concepts are reflected in the level 2 Holy Order choice. I'd expect to see options more along the lines of Light or Tempest for the remaining subclasses.


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## Haplo781 (Dec 1, 2022)

mellored said:


> You can either use your action to attack or cast a cantrip, not both.
> 
> It's also 1/turn.  So not even booming blade or quicken sorcerer would help.  It's a nerf to multi-attacks (war cleric)
> 
> So the only character this is a boost for is one who switches.  And they're still behind due to needing both Str and Wis.



You're still gaining an extra feature.


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## Vael (Dec 1, 2022)

I like decoupling Holy Order and moving Blessed Strikes as a general Cleric ability. Clerics have never been my class of choice, they are literally the last caster class I'd choose to play, but everything here is solid.


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## OB1 (Dec 1, 2022)

Amrûnril said:


> I feel like the War/Knowledge/Theurge concepts are reflected in the level 2 Holy Order choice. I'd expect to see options more along the lines of Light or Tempest for the remaining subclasses.



Very well could be, and that's a good point about the Holy Order choice.  But I would say that the Holy Order choice could also either lean into my set of proposed subclasses or give some additional range past the subclass you do choose.  I'm just sticking with my feeling of all subclasses being related to the class groupings until proven otherwise


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## Minigiant (Dec 1, 2022)

*Channel Divinity*
Nice. But I don't like the change to Long rest.

*Holy Order*
Love it. I've been wishing for it. Clerics are strongest at Religion

*Domain*
Separate form Order. Awesome

*Blessed Strikes*
All clerics get Potent Cantrip and Divine Strike. Powerful. Gotta see Mages and Warrior though.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 1, 2022)

OB1 said:


> Very well could be, and that's a good point about the Holy Order choice.  But I would say that the Holy Order choice could also either lean into my set of proposed subclasses or give some additional range past the subclass you do choose.  I'm just sticking with my feeling of all subclasses being related to the class groupings until proven otherwise



I hope you are wrong and we don't see War/Knowledge/Theurgy domains at all. Mostly because, especially if we have holy orders, a Tempest Protector cleric is a fairly classic war cleric - but so is a Life Protector as a battlefield medic. And the big question about knowledge clerics is what they know about; a Knowledge Scholar is gilding the lilly in a way that Life Scholar and Tempest Scholar (for example) aren't.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 1, 2022)

And now I come to think of it the other reason not to have War/Knowledge/Theurgy as domains is that it invites probably unwanted direct comparisons. Which is better between a Knowledge Thaumaturge or a Theurgy Scholar? The concepts are almost the same.


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## Charlaquin (Dec 1, 2022)

Turn undead now causes undead that fail their save to gain the (new to this packet) dazed condition, can only use their action to dash, and if they move, must end the move further from you than they started it. Cool.

Checked the dazed condition. The dazed creature can only move or take an action (not both), and can’t take reactions or bonus actions. So… what’s the point of turned undead being able to use the dash action? I feel like they should be allowed to Dodge instead.

Also, Smite Undead replaces Destroy Undead. Instead of undead of a certain CR being automatically destroyed when they fail their saves against Turn Undead, Turn Undead just deals Prof bonus d8 damage to all undead who fail their saves. Not sure if that’s an improvement or a downgrade. I guess it depends.

Healing spells all seem to be Abjuration now. That’s interesting.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 1, 2022)

So my group has generally considered clerics a bad class in 5e. Its just so....boring, so incredibly boring. Every player who has played a cleric in my game at one point considered changing to something else.

And this version, its a step forward and a few steps back.

*The Good*

Holy Order is a good change, though it needs some cleanup. I love that clerics can be "the best" at religion now. It is awkward though that a 1st level cleric that takes religion can't technically take holy order to get the bonus in religion without losing a skill proficiency. I am sure that's not the intention, that's just a wording cleanup. This is by far the best change.
Prayer of Healing is good now. I am assuming this is planned with the continuing removal of short rest abilities in favor of long rest ones, otherwise this could get broken fast. But as one part natural heal, one part divine, I think its a solid bonus now.
Channel Divinity at 1st level: Giving all clerics a little free healing is not a bad thing at all.
*The Bad*

Its not enough change. The cleric is still so damn generic, it still feels like a platform for bless, healing, and spirit guardians.
The new smite turning is more generically useful, but its lost all of its cool. The old ability lets you destroy swarms of undead with a single flick of your clerical finger, that was awesome....and it was a great hook for a DM to make a clerical play feel cool. The new one is just more generic, and that is the kill word for the cleric, the cleric DOES NOT NEED TO BE MORE GENERIC! As an example, a 5th level cleric can currently mow down a hoard of a zombies. To the equivalent with this new cleric, you would need to be 13th level (+5 prof bonus), and its still no guarantee you roll the 22 damage you need on a 5d8 to do the job.
I really appreciate they continue to work on guidance (which needs to be reigned in), but 10 feet range....come on. You are effectively expected the party to walk with a cleric and every other party member huddled next to them like some weird celebrity with their encourage. 10 feet is stupidly close when you are not in a combat situation.
They killed Spiritual Weapon: Yes its scaler is better now, and that's great. But THE REASON this spell was good was the lack of concentration, one of the few spells the cleric could use to augment combat while they were blessing or spiritual gardening....and now that's gone. Very bad change.
The cleric lost huge amount of spell preparation flexibility. First off, you get less spells prepared at the lowest levels (1st and 2nd level). But now you are rigid in what spell levels you have to prepare, whereas before you could prepare a bunch of high level spells, a bunch of low levels, or anything in between. This is worse in almost every way.


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## Charlaquin (Dec 1, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> They killed Spiritual Weapon: Yes its scaler is better now, and that's great. But THE REASON this spell was good was the lack of concentration, one of the few spells the cleric could use to augment combat while they were blessing or spiritual gardening....and now that's gone. Very bad change.



Note that it now scales +1d8 damage per slot level above 2nd instead of per two slot levels. So that’s nice.


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## OB1 (Dec 1, 2022)

@Stalker0 Smite turning feels a bit underpowered to me as well.  Should either be a flat 10x prof bonus or 2xprof-d8s and in either case should also do half damage on a save (but no Daze on a save).  

The new guidance I think is a great fix to both the PHB and Packet 2 versions.  

I think spell prep needs to add that you can prepare your Wis modifier or prof bonus number of spells from any level.

I think the Daze will end up working better in actual play than the old rules.  First you take care of the still active ones, then you gang up and knock out the others one by one (or run away).  Makes it easier to chase them down if they do decide to run since they can't get as far.

I'm 50/50 on Spiritual Weapon.  If they're going to make it concentration, then at least let it move 50' a round.


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## Gorck (Dec 1, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Currently you either get +1d8 on attacks _or_ cantrips. Now it's both. And moving it to the base class means every subclass gets a new ability.
> 
> It's power creep on a class that doesn't need it.



For the Life domain . . .

Domain Spells and Disciple of Life went from 1st level to 3rd level (pushed back 2 levels)
Bonus Proficiency went from a 1st level subclass feature to a 2nd level class feature called Holy Order: Protector (pushed back 1 level and made a base feature, gaining Martial Weapon Proficiency)
Preserve life went from 2nd level to 6th level (pushed back 4 levels)
Blessed Healer went from 6th level to 10th level (pushed back 4 levels)
Divine Strike went from an 8th level subclass feature to a 7th level class feature called Blessed Strikes (moved up 1 level and made a base feature, gaining use on cantrip)
Supreme Healing went from 17th level to 14th level (moved up 3 levels)

I'm failing to see anything indicative of a "power creep."


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 2, 2022)

For the Life domain, one small but actually kind big thing I noticed: _cure wounds _is no longer a “free” prepared spell.

No free _cure wounds! _For a Life cleric!


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## mellored (Dec 2, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> You're still gaining an extra feature.



Maybe I am missing it, but what extra feature?


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 2, 2022)

Sir Brennen said:


> For the Life domain, one small but actually kind big thing I noticed: _cure wounds _is no longer a “free” prepared spell.
> 
> No free _cure wounds! _For a Life cleric!



Someone actually used Cure Wounds rather than Healing Word?


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## Xamnam (Dec 2, 2022)

Also, Disciple of Life now only works on the turn that you cast the spell. No more super goodberries.


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## Weiley31 (Dec 2, 2022)

Honestly, I like it. I'm also glad that when it comes to Holy Orders, you can at least get 2 out of the 3 eventually.

Really looking forward to the Paladin/Warlock/Sorcerer now.


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## Clint_L (Dec 2, 2022)

Charlaquin said:


> Also, Smite Undead replaces Destroy Undead. Instead of undead of a certain CR being automatically destroyed when they fail their saves against Turn Undead, Turn Undead just deals Prof bonus d8 damage to all undead who fail their saves. Not sure if that’s an



Huge nerf against low level undead, but on the other hand a huge improvement against tougher undead, because they still take damage.

For example, at level 5 your Smite Undead will do an average of 13.5 damage. That's barely enough to destroy a skeleton, and very little else, whereas right now you could nuke a LOT more creatures. The difference between the two gets worse as you go up levels. So it has become much worse at dealing with tons of weaker undead. But it's a much better option against a swarm of slightly tougher undead that would have just shrugged off the old Destroy Undead.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 2, 2022)

I know it's not an actual obligatory part of the class but I have to talk about their suggested spell list. Clearly things like this are a big part of WotC's accessibility plans for the new edition.

First off, while I like the idea of a suggested spell loadout for all levels, I'm once again going to say that WotC seems to think these things are way more of a panacea for confused newbies than they are going to be (most people don't want to feel like they're making "the man's" Cleric). They're good to have, but both WotC and some commenters seem to think they solve accessibility problems and they simply don't do that.

 More importantly, what value it has is further compromised by making a pretty questionable list. They're not recommending Healing Word??? Why put off Guidance until level 4 and why, in particular take Shield of Faith before Bless? I'm sure Beacon of Hope is a fine spell, but why are they prioritizing something I don't think I have ever seen someone cast and had to look up just now over Mass Healing Word, Dispel Magic, and Revivify? The Cleric player's going to be real popular when they reveal to the player whose character just died that they didn't think they should prep Revivify that day because the list said Beacon of Hope was the money spell.

I know it seems nit-picky, but if they want to provide actual value with the ink spilled and paper filled on lists like this they should make actual, thoughtful recommendations for the best all-around package for the average Cleric the way people actually play the game, not try to use it as a way to engineer how people play the class or try to feature less popular spells. It's not like the suggested list is full of trap options or whatever, but they should just ask any of the people who do class guide's online to suggest a list. While the accepted online wisdom about the quality of various spells is not without major issues, regurgitating the average internet class guide's judgement about spell loadout would provide more value than what they are doing.

Still better than the Ranger list in the last playtest where they recommended prepping Hunters Mark despite giving that to all Rangers for free.


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## Kobold Stew (Dec 2, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Currently you either get +1d8 on attacks _or_ cantrips. Now it's both. And moving it to the base class means every subclass gets a new ability.
> 
> It's power creep on a class that doesn't need it.



Nah --  Tahsa's introduced it as an optional (replacement) rule, and it cleans things up a lot.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Dec 2, 2022)

Haplo781 said:


> Currently you either get +1d8 on attacks _or_ cantrips. Now it's both. And moving it to the base class means every subclass gets a new ability.
> 
> It's power creep on a class that doesn't need it.



And one of their best low-level spells was nerfed significantly (Spiritual Weapon now requires concentration). 

OneD&D tweaks the level of power both ways. It nerfs some things and makes buffs to others. You're ignoring the nerfs in order to claim power creep.


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## Kobold Stew (Dec 2, 2022)

Xamnam said:


> Also, Disciple of Life now only works on the turn that you cast the spell. No more super goodberries.



A great fix for a bad Sage Advice.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 2, 2022)

Using Holy Order to mix and match Domain with basic party role is a game changer. There's just going to be vastly more domains I would now consider for any given cleric character concept.

There is a slight drawback in as much as when helping an absolute beginner choose subclass I would often start with asking them if they wanted to be a frontline weapon swinging or backline spell slinging type cleric, but since the narrowing down of options marrying role with subclass offered only helped newbies who have a veteran helping them or who read through all the subclasses carefully I think it's a minimal loss.


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## Levistus's_Leviathan (Dec 2, 2022)

Gorck said:


> For the Life domain . . .
> 
> Domain Spells and Disciple of Life went from 1st level to 3rd level (pushed back 2 levels)
> Bonus Proficiency went from a 1st level subclass feature to a 2nd level class feature called Holy Order: Protector (pushed back 1 level and made a base feature, gaining Martial Weapon Proficiency)
> ...



I've seen a bunch of people over the past few months only highlight either the buffs or nerfs to the classes and races in the OneD&D playtest packets. Whatever fits the narrative that they're pushing. 

The correct way to analyze these packets is to take all of the changes together, separate the nerfs from buffs, and then compare them to each other. Not just focus in on a single class feature that got a buff and start claiming "powercreep!"


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 2, 2022)

I don't like Divine Spark. The healing option is probably overpowered in general, and definitely overpowered compared to the offensive option. Healing is more powerful in 5e (and presumably 5.5e) than an equivalent amount of damage even without a saving throw against that damage.

Also it is something that involves a number of dice equal to your proficiency bonus that can be done a number of times equal to proficiency bonus, and I now have a firm policy of making fun of WotC any time they do two levels of proficiency bonus based scaling on the same ability. Come on, there's other numbers.


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## Krachek (Dec 2, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> And now I come to think of it the other reason not to have War/Knowledge/Theurgy as domains is that it invites probably unwanted direct comparisons. Which is better between a Knowledge Thaumaturge or a Theurgy Scholar? The concepts are almost the same.



I also think that gonna lead to some confusion with IRL religious order.
For actual phb, a religious order would probably be based on domain,
now UA add a cleric order, that is a role within a domain, and will conflict with the concept of IRL religious order.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 2, 2022)

Kobold Stew said:


> A great fix for a bad Sage Advice.




He actually explains that in the video.
Sage advice tries to go RAW as much as possible. Which is totally not RAI.

Now is their chance to fix it.


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## Lojaan (Dec 2, 2022)

I like it a lot at a glance but I would prefer to give holy order at level 1 and divine spark at level 2.


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## Benjamin Olson (Dec 2, 2022)

Lojaan said:


> I like it a lot at a glance but I would prefer to give holy order at level 1 and divine spark at level 2.



Yeah, the downside of that is that people have an extra level one decision to make, which is probably why they put Holy Order off until level 2. But as is it puts people planning to be "Protectors" in the boat of having to decide between having weapons and armor they can't actually use yet as starting equipment or hitting level 2 and not being able to really level up until they can go shopping. I think WotC overestimates the stress the additional level 1 decision creates, when in my experience most newbies have a clear idea of whether they want to be a backline spellslinging Cleric or a frontline weapon swinging Cleric long before they can decide what sort of Cleric they want to be beyond that.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 2, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> Using Holy Order to mix and match Domain with basic party role is a game changer. There's just going to be vastly more domains I would now consider for any given cleric character concept.
> 
> There is a slight drawback in as much as when helping an absolute beginner choose subclass I would often start with asking them if they wanted to be a frontline weapon swinging or backline spell slinging type cleric, but since the narrowing down of options marrying role with subclass offered only helped newbies who have a veteran helping them or who read through all the subclasses carefully I think it's a minimal loss.



And honestly it's pretty trivial. Instead of Ring mail or possibly even chain mail those front line weapon swingers at level 1 are likely to be wearing scale mail; first level characters really can't afford good armour. Scale's only slightly more expensive than ring mail but at leat as protective unless you're Dex 8.  And they're going to be using a mace rather than a morningstar. The archetype still works at level 1. About all you miss is the two handed weapons (which are a trap choice for a cleric) and longbows.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 2, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> Yeah, the downside of that is that people have an extra level one decision to make, which is probably why they put Holy Order off until level 2. But as is it puts people planning to be "Protectors" in the boat of having to decide between having weapons and armor they can't actually use yet as starting equipment or hitting level 2 and not being able to really level up until they can go shopping.



Heavy armour people are meant to be saving up for Splint Armour anyway. At 200GP it's only just out of the reach of a first level character, and is one of the things  that gold is actually useful for and it's also where heavy armour pulls away from medium (even with Dex 14 you need a 750 GP breastplate to match it). I'm not seeing a huge problem here.


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## aco175 (Dec 2, 2022)

I see a lot of the lower-end features are bumped a few levels up and the 17th level feature is dropped to 14.  I know most of my campaigns tend to get to level 4-5 rather fast and then proceed to levels 10-12 before ending.  I thought tis was the case for a lot of campaigns in general where the 'sweet spot' of gaming was levels 5-9.  Need to see more on the other classes before I rant too much.


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## TwoSix (Dec 2, 2022)

My general problem with Holy Order at level 2 is the narrative consequence.  We assume level 1 is the starting level.  (I think most experienced groups will probably start at 3+, but we're talking about shaping the game for relative novices.)

Level 1 goes really fast!  Generally, you hit level 2 before you even get your 1st long rest in, assuming a "normal" amount of encounters.  You might not even make it back to town before hitting level 2, or even level 3, depending on the exact adventure structure.  Let's ignore the fact that being a member of a Holy Order implies a certain background event, not something that happens while after you've killed your first couple kobolds and woodland creatures (after all, class features are easy to reskin).  Taking the martial holy order then puts the character in a weird situation of gaining a "training wheels" feature they can't benefit from until they arrive back in town, and then have to sell their 1st level granted equipment and buy new stuff they may or may not be able to afford.

I think a very simple guideline for 5e is that armor proficiencies should not change on account of class features gained by leveling.  One can always opt into new armor via multiclassing or feat if desired.  Armor granted by class should be either none, light, or all 3.  If there's a desire to keep the class from using heavy armor but medium armor is OK, just disincentivize the heavy armor via class feature, much like barbarians.  Just give clerics heavy armor by default.  Characters who don't want heavy armor will just prioritize Dex over Str, just like Dex fighters and paladins do already.  Have the martial Holy Order give martial weapons and shield proficiencies; shields are the actual proficiency to gate if you want to keep characters from having overly high AC.


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## Greg Benage (Dec 2, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> Taking the martial holy order then puts the character in a weird situation of gaining a "training wheels" feature they can't benefit from until they arrive back in town, and then have to sell their 1st level granted equipment and buy new stuff they may or may not be able to afford.



It's definitely weird. In quite a few _published _adventures and campaigns, they're just not going to get the benefit of their class feature for a while after they've leveled up because there just isn't an opportunity to go shopping.

I don't find the "new player" arguments especially persuasive, but if I did, I wouldn't find this new requirement to change weapons and armor after session one a very good solution. I can hear it now: "Oh cool, so I get a better weapon and armor if I choose this order?" "No, you'd be able to _use _better weapons and armor, but you'd have to go buy some." "But I don't have any money?" "Well, your other problem is that you're not strong enough to use the armor without penalty because the rules 'protected' you from having to make those decisions when you made your character..." "Can I re-roll?"

I feel like it's obviously just a kludgy fix for cleric dips, but there's a lot of collateral damage.


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## TwoSix (Dec 2, 2022)

Greg Benage said:


> It's definitely weird. In quite a few _published _adventures and campaigns, they're just not going to get the benefit of their class feature for a while after they've leveled up because there just isn't an opportunity to go shopping.
> 
> I don't find the "new player" arguments especially persuasive, but if I did, I wouldn't find this new requirement to change weapons and armor after session one a very good solution. I can hear it now: "Oh cool, so I get a better weapon and armor if I choose this order?" "No, you'd be able to _use _better weapons and armor, but you'd have to go buy some." "But I don't have any money?" "Well, your other problem is that you're not strong enough to use the armor without penalty because the rules 'protected' you from having to make those decisions when you made your character..." "Can I re-roll?"
> 
> I feel like it's obviously just a kludgy fix for cleric dips, but there's a lot of collateral damage.



Exactly right.  This is a change that's actually the most awkward for new players, who aren't aware of the ins and outs of how armor and weapon proficiencies work.


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## Kobold Stew (Dec 2, 2022)

Honestly, I do not think this is a problem. The strongest of three options isn't as strong as it might be.
If players don't want it, they can choose something else.


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## Clint_L (Dec 2, 2022)

Overall, I really like these changes. Making subclasses uniformly a level 3 decision is great; this was on my wish list for OneD&D but I didn't think it likely. Most of my DMing is with beginner groups through my D&D Club at school and at summer camps, and this will make character creation simpler and more consistent. I don't think having to pick up armour at level 2 is a significant issue; the worst case scenario is the character doesn't have immediate access to it, which the DM can easily fix or, you know, they don't just have instant access to it. I _really_ like that 1 level cleric dips will be less of a thing [ _cough_ Twilight Clerics _cough_].

I have mixed feelings about the changes to turn/destroy undead, but need to try them out in game. The spell changes...some good, some not so sure about, mostly "meh." Divine Spark seems really good and fun to have.


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## renbot (Dec 2, 2022)

Lojaan said:


> I like it a lot at a glance but I would prefer to give holy order at level 1 and divine spark at level 2.



This 100%. 

Reading through the rest of the thread, this fixes both the narrative (what is a cleric without a Holy Order?) and the practical (what equipment do I need?) complaints people are airing.


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## TwoSix (Dec 2, 2022)

Random thought:  All these level 1 armor issues go away if they make chain mail medium armor.  Stealth character get chain shirt at level 1, character who have dumped Strength take scale mail, and characters with low Dex take chain mail.  Then heavy armor proficiency opens up the splint/plate upgrade path for later progression, and medium armor characters can get breastplate later.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 2, 2022)

Maybe downgrade hide armor to light armor too.


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## Arilyn (Dec 2, 2022)

Benjamin Olson said:


> I know it's not an actual obligatory part of the class but I have to talk about their suggested spell list. Clearly things like this are a big part of WotC's accessibility plans for the new edition.
> 
> First off, while I like the idea of a suggested spell loadout for all levels, I'm once again going to say that WotC seems to think these things are way more of a panacea for confused newbies than they are going to be (most people don't want to feel like they're making "the man's" Cleric). They're good to have, but both WotC and some commenters seem to think they solve accessibility problems and they simply don't do that.
> 
> ...



I really dislike these suggested lists too. I'm not sure they are even that helpful, even if WoTC chose better spells. Reading through the list and choosing the spell that appeals to you will help cement how a spell works, making it more likely new players will remember the details. 

I know that choices can be overwhelming but experienced players or the GM should be able to assist. New players need support, for sure, but just copying down suggested choices from the book does little in the way of internalizing information. My advice to new players? Poke around. Read the ability and spell descriptions, ask questions. Choose a class and species that appeals and just hone in on the choices there. If you like wizards, don't feel you need more game experience first. Go for what excites you. I'll be here to make sure you get something you'll love.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 2, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> Exactly right.  This is a change that's actually the most awkward for new players, who aren't aware of the ins and outs of how armor and weapon proficiencies work.



Completely agree. I would much rather just ask a new player:

DM: "Ok for this cleric your thinking of, do you want to be a more warrior type, do you want to use your holy magic a lot, or do you want to be more of a priest, scholarly guy?"

Player: "um, warrior guy".

DM: "ok, so you are going to pick this holy order. And your going to have this heavy armor, so you'll be really defensive and hard to hit."

Player: "oh cool"


The game does assume a DM for a reason, lets be honest, most new players aren;'t just making characters for a game without oversight, they have a DM to help them. When I have new players, I don't even explain their options (as frankly that is a recipe for them to lose the spirit of the game). You don't ask new players, "what do you want to build", you ask them "what kind of character do you want to play?" and then the DM walks them through a few ways to do that, and let them pick.


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## Clint_L (Dec 2, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Completely agree. I would much rather just ask a new player:
> 
> DM: "Ok for this cleric your thinking of, do you want to be a more warrior type, do you want to use your holy magic a lot, or do you want to be more of a priest, scholarly guy?"
> 
> ...



Yeah - this is why I like subclasses at 3. For a first character, I am just trying to get the gist of what they want, whereas if I am also leading them to a subclass it feels too much like its my character and not theirs. But keep in mind that I don't have that much time - I am frequently helping 5-6 kids at once during the last part of lunch. So that experience obviously affects my preferences.


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## Minigiant (Dec 3, 2022)

TwoSix said:


> My general problem with Holy Order at level 2 is the narrative consequence.  We assume level 1 is the starting level.  (I think most experienced groups will probably start at 3+, but we're talking about shaping the game for relative novices.)
> 
> Level 1 goes really fast!  Generally, you hit level 2 before you even get your 1st long rest in, assuming a "normal" amount of encounters.  You might not even make it back to town before hitting level 2, or even level 3, depending on the exact adventure structure.  Let's ignore the fact that being a member of a Holy Order implies a certain background event, not something that happens while after you've killed your first couple kobolds and woodland creatures (after all, class features are easy to reskin).  Taking the martial holy order then puts the character in a weird situation of gaining a "training wheels" feature they can't benefit from until they arrive back in town, and then have to sell their 1st level granted equipment and buy new stuff they may or may not be able to afford.
> 
> I think a very simple guideline for 5e is that armor proficiencies should not change on account of class features gained by leveling.  One can always opt into new armor via multiclassing or feat if desired.  Armor granted by class should be either none, light, or all 3.  If there's a desire to keep the class from using heavy armor but medium armor is OK, just disincentivize the heavy armor via class feature, much like barbarians.  Just give clerics heavy armor by default.  Characters who don't want heavy armor will just prioritize Dex over Str, just like Dex fighters and paladins do already.  Have the martial Holy Order give martial weapons and shield proficiencies; shields are the actual proficiency to gate if you want to keep characters from having overly high AC.



I agree

Holy Order and Channel Divinity should be swapped in order. Then Thaumaturge changed. Choosing Protector andgetting heavy armor at level 1 is fine. It's a bit off at level 2.

Crusader: Give martial weapons and Dueling Fighting style.
Hierophant: Give one bonus Arcane cantrip and one bonus Primal cantrip
Protector: Gives heavy armor training and Defense Fighting style.
Scholar: Give 2 skill proficiencies and add WIS mod to those checks
Thaumaturge: Give one bonus Divine cantrip and one bonus Divine spell prepared.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 3, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> I agree
> 
> Holy Order and Channel Divinity should be swapped in order. Then Thaumaturge changed. Choosing Protector andgetting heavy armor at level 1 is fine. It's a bit off at level 2.
> 
> ...




And maybe, as a multiclass cleric, just not give that ability.
Maybe each class having an ability you only gain when you start with that class would be a great idea.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Dec 3, 2022)

For Orders, I'd go with level 1 and an improvement of the order at 9th.

*Protector*: 
1 -> gain training with martial weapons and heavy armors,
9 -> pick a Fighting Style feat

*Thaumaturge*:
1 -> one extra 0-level spell, Arcane Divine Recovery ala wizard/land druid 
9 -> regain 1 CD on short rest.

*Scholar*: 
1 -> Training in Int or Cha 2 skill, add Wisdom to the
9 -> Improved Ritual Casting ala Wizard (dont need to be prepped)


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## Minigiant (Dec 3, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> And maybe, as a multiclass cleric, just not give that ability.
> Maybe each class having an ability you only gain when you start with that class would be a great idea.



Or make Holy Order First level and move only Divine Spark to 2nd.


Channel Divinity (Turn Undead), Holy Order, Spellcasting
Channel Divinity (Divine Spark)
Cleric Sunclass
Feat
Smite Undead
Cleric Subclass
Blessed Strikes
Feat
Holy Order Improvement
Divine Intervention


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## Ruin Explorer (Dec 3, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> The big difference in the cleric is that they've reshuffled the early levels:
> 
> Channel Divinity is now level 1 and you get a heal (or harm) out of it as well as Turn Undead - Prof times per long rest
> New feature at 2 - the Holy Order. This is a semi- mirror of the Warlock's Pact Boon where you get to decide between heavy armour and martial weapons, an extra cantrip plus an extra channel on short rest, or two knowledge skills with quasi-expertise
> ...



I like it too except I think it's really wack to keep domains the way they are AND make them level 3. I'd have much preferred an approach that made domains something rather different.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 3, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Or make Holy Order First level and move only Divine Spark to 2nd.
> 
> 
> Channel Divinity (Turn Undead), Holy Order, Spellcasting
> ...




Ok. No problem with that.

Maybe you quoted the wrong person?

My suggestion was having an exclusive ability you only gain at character level 0.

Holy Order (at level 1) would be a perfect kind of such an ability. Why should someone who picked up a level of cleric suddenly gain all the abilities of a holy order?
I could see the same for a wizard, and a bard (school or collage) or the fighter and paladin (knightly order) or a ranger or druid (conclave) or a rogue (guild).


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## Zaukrie (Dec 3, 2022)

I understand the design decision.... But I hate that channel divinity requires undead be used. I wish, and again, I understand why it isn't, that channel divinity was much more tied to your god or purpose, with like ten options. 

I like most of the changes here, actually


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 3, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I understand the design decision.... But I hate that channel divinity requires undead be used. I wish, and again, I understand why it isn't, that channel divinity was much more tied to your god or purpose, with like ten options.
> 
> I like most of the changes here, actually



Channel divinity _doesn't_ require undead to be used. Turn Undead requires Undead - but you also get Divine Spark. You also get a third Channel Divinity option from your domain as your level 6 subclass feature (in the Life Cleric's case Preserve Life) so your major channel divinity option is tied to your god/purpose in the form of your domain.


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## Faolyn (Dec 3, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> Someone actually used Cure Wounds rather than Healing Word?



Happens in my current party all the time.


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## Zaukrie (Dec 3, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> Channel divinity _doesn't_ require undead to be used. Turn Undead requires Undead - but you also get Divine Spark. You also get a third Channel Divinity option from your domain as your level 6 subclass feature (in the Life Cleric's case Preserve Life) so your major channel divinity option is tied to your god/purpose in the form of your domain.



Every DM is going to include undead so the cleric can shine. And level 6 is a long way off. Like I said, I understand, but that doesn't mean I like it.


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## Faolyn (Dec 3, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I understand the design decision.... But I hate that channel divinity requires undead be used. I wish, and again, I understand why it isn't, that channel divinity was much more tied to your god or purpose, with like ten options.
> 
> I like most of the changes here, actually



It's possible that other domains will allow you to turn things other than undead.


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## Tales and Chronicles (Dec 3, 2022)

Zaukrie said:


> I understand the design decision.... But I hate that channel divinity requires undead be used. I wish, and again, I understand why it isn't, that channel divinity was much more tied to your god or purpose, with like ten options.
> 
> I like most of the changes here, actually



That was how the 2014 playtest worked: you had a somewhat long list of CD, you got to choose 2 and one was gifted by the domain. So you could mix and match options to represent more closely your faith's powers ( or powergame it and take all the best ones, I guess).


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 3, 2022)

I have another issue with the holy order.
In the Scholar option, I think it needs to be clarified, which skills receive the wisdom bonus, all skills on the list or only those 2 selected by the feature. And what hapens if you already know all the skills.

The big issue is: if you are a scholar, you might already know religion. But it is likely that you want your wisdom bonus added to religion. You surely don't want to hold off religion until second level to not waste the wisdom bonus. Seems like a similar problem as with the scout rogue. I really hate that.
The holy order should really go down to level 1.


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## rules.mechanic (Dec 3, 2022)

I'd be interested to know if people think Divine Spark will create a new 1 level dip issue, given that its effect and number of uses are both proficiency bonus based?


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## Xamnam (Dec 3, 2022)

rules.mechanic said:


> I'd be interested to know if people think Divine Spark will create a new 1 level dip issue, given that its effect and number of uses are both proficiency bonus based?



Oh, wow, yeah, that actually seems rather likely.


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## Neonchameleon (Dec 3, 2022)

rules.mechanic said:


> I'd be interested to know if people think Divine Spark will create a new 1 level dip issue, given that its effect and number of uses are both proficiency bonus based?



The damage? Nah. Even at its highest it's only 6d8 vs the 4d10 of firebolt.

The heal? The big thing about it is it takes your action; it's better than Cure Wounds because it has range. But Healing Word's far better in combat because it does enough to bring people back onto their feet and let you either cast a cantrip or make your normal attack - and you can get that from Magic Initiate. Which means it's mostly useful as an out of combat feature.

Can I imagine >6  barbarians or >11 fighters taking it if their higher levels aren't significantly improved? Yes, definitely. Having panic buttons is a good thing and higher level fighter and barbarian levels ... mostly aren't worth much. But do I think spending your action to heal an average of 27hp at 17th level is a big issue a few times per day? No. Especially as you should have out of combat healing items way before that.

And at low level I can't think of any class it's remotely worth giving up a level before level 5.


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## Minigiant (Dec 4, 2022)

I know we can't see the paladin but...

I rolled up the cleric sister of the paladin in a real game PC for a playtest. Well...

Samuel Crushwell the 7th (Paladin 3)

Cantrips: 3
Slots: 3 1st level Slots
Smites: 3 Divine Smites (2d8 radiant)
Healing: Lay on Hands for 15 HP
Armor: Heavy
Weapons: Martial
Other: Divine Sense, Divine Health, Divine Smite, Fighting Style, Subclass

Samantha Crushwell the 6th (Cleric3)

Cantrips: 3
Spellcasting: 4 1st level Slots 2 2nd level Slots
"Smites": 4 Thunderous Smites (2d6 thunder) 2 Branding Smites (2d6 radiant)
Healing: Divine 2 Spark for 4d8 (18) HP
Armor: Heavy (Protector)
Weapons: Martial (Protector)
Other: Subclass, Turn Undead

Either Paladin needs a buff (lol), some lateral versatility, or the Smite spells need to be cut from Cleric. It's too close/


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## MoonSong (Dec 4, 2022)

Neonchameleon said:


> Someone actually used Cure Wounds rather than Healing Word?



Why would anyone rather take the version that enables good narratives and makes in combat healing interesting instead of the easy version that enables degenerate combat loops?/s


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## Henadic Theologian (Dec 4, 2022)

No one seems to have noticed that the cleric's subclass features in the cleric table is called Cleric Subclass Feauture, not Domain Feature.

 This suggests that now Domain subclasses are just one possibility when clerics choose a subclass, not the only choice, with the possibility of none Domain cleric subclasses and subclasses that multiple classes can choose being options.


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## Faolyn (Dec 4, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> No one seems to have noticed that the cleric's subclass features in the cleric table is called Cleric Subclass Feauture, not Domain Feature.
> 
> This suggests that now Domain subclasses are just one possibility when clerics choose a subclass, not the only choice, with the possibility of none Domain cleric subclasses and subclasses that multiple classes can choose being options.



It could just be a generic term used to make it easier to use. I, for one, am always getting mixed up when it comes to remembering which class uses Paths and which uses Way of--I keep forgetting which one is barbarian and which is monk. I imagine that there's enough people who find it a bit confusing that they just decided to streamline the terminology.


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## Henadic Theologian (Dec 5, 2022)

Faolyn said:


> It could just be a generic term used to make it easier to use. I, for one, am always getting mixed up when it comes to remembering which class uses Paths and which uses Way of--I keep forgetting which one is barbarian and which is monk. I imagine that there's enough people who find it a bit confusing that they just decided to streamline the terminology.




 Looking at the structure of subclasses being the same for all classes, I doubt it's just to ease terminology, it's setting the table for subclasses like in the Strixhaven playtest to actually work properly.


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## Ashrym (Dec 6, 2022)

Minigiant said:


> Samantha Crushwell the 6th (Cleric3)
> 
> Cantrips: 3
> Spellcasting: 4 1st level Slots 2 2nd level Slots
> ...




I was comparing the test cleric to the test bard.

Bard, 3rd level

Cantrips: 2
Spellcasting: 4 1st-level slots, 2 2nd-level slots (limited spell schools)
Smites: 0
Healing: 2x bardic inspiration for 2d6 (7) HP
Armor: light, no shield
Weapons: simple
Other: d20 test reaction (bardic inspiration), expertise 

The cleric: has a broader spell selection, better healing options, better armor, can replace the heavy armor with medium and a shield going with scholar to approximate the skill bonuses the bard has and still have better armor (or improve the cleric spell casting advantages with thaumaturge), saves WIS instead of DEX.

If I were to guess at spell choices:

Bard:  Prestidigitation, Minor Illusion; Sleep, Detect Magic, Hex, Dissonant Whispers; Suggestion, Levitate; Healing Word (Songs of Rest)

Cleric:  Guidance, Resistance, Thaumaturgy; Thunderous Smite, Healing Word, Detect Magic, Command; Branding Smite, Augury; Lesser Restoration, Prayer of Healing (Life Domain)

I think the bard still as enough spell options that they are relevant but the overall impression I'm getting is a bard really needs to leverage inspiration and expertise the way things are going.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 6, 2022)

I think comparing ability vs ability is a dangerous thing to do. I do think the cleric and the bard are close enough to be considered balanced.


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## Ashrym (Dec 7, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> I think comparing ability vs ability is a dangerous thing to do. I do think the cleric and the bard are close enough to be considered balanced.




How so?  Weaker spell casting, worse armor, worse saving throw proficiency, lack of damage options.....

In the earlier levels that were just compared, bards average a +3 bonus to two d20 die rolls in the entire day, have and extra skill proficiency, and have expertise.  Songs of Restoration replacing Song of Rest removed an ability and forced bards to just cast spells like they already could.  A cleric can use the scholar ability to add 2 skill proficiencies and emulate expertise in those skills while still being generally better.

The spell schools restrict bards too much and also deny iconic spells / abilities from previous editions and folklore.  Rangers having all schools except evocation gives them a broader spell list than bards.  The arcane / divine / primal spell lists are very bad for a class that gained much of it's usefulness in the variety of spells available from a class spell list that blended them.  

Now instead of other spell casters being a bit better than bards with spells they overshadow bards significantly.  The skill bonuses and a few inspiration bonuses don't balance that out like they did with the blended class list.

Clerics, OTOH, added abilities with holy order (instead of losing something like song of rest) and improved the channel divinity feature with the healing / damage option.  The cleric spell list remained largely unchanged instead of removing iconic bard spells (like lifting curses, breaking enchantments, and cursing enemies) from previous editions and folklore.  

The changes to the cleric look like good changes.  It's the changes to the bard class that cause bards to suddenly look bad in comparison.


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## Chaosmancer (Dec 7, 2022)

I've been thinking I'd like the Turn feature to work on Fiends as well as Undead. It feels very thematic to me. 

I like the change to the Destroy Undead. While it does mean that you can't dust large numbers of CR 1/2 undead, I've actually very rarely seen Destroy undead come up, since by 5th level it is far rarer to see them willing to spend the channel divinity on zombies and skeletons. I am slightly less happy that the damage only happens when they fail the save. High level undead getting turned is nasty, so many of them have defenses against it, meaning the damage won't proc either. 

Still, the chance for a cleric to harm greater undead when they turn them is very nice. 


Things I'm frustrated by? 

They have still kept the absolutely horrendous Divine Intervention feature, and then nerfed it. 

Life Cleric Preserve life should just heal. It is _waay_ to difficult at the table for people to figure out half their hp, and how many hp they can gain before they hit half hp. Just let them throw out a massive heal. Sure, maybe that means the Barbarian gets healed for 50 hp instead of 15, while the wizard gets 5, and the rogue gets 10 and 20 points gets wasted, but that's fine.


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## Incenjucar (Dec 7, 2022)

I personally hate that clerics still have a built-in favored enemy feature. Undead should be strictly optional.


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## Li Shenron (Dec 7, 2022)

It's a change for the slightly worse in almost every aspect.


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## Ashrym (Dec 7, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> It's a change for the slightly worse in almost every aspect.




How so?


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## Li Shenron (Dec 8, 2022)

Ashrym said:


> How so?



Channel Divinity moved one level earlier -> this means you have 2 resource-based ability to manage at 1st level instead of one (spells), more mandatory complexity already at the start of the game

Channel Divinity changed from short-rest based to long-rest based -> this is a dealbreaker for me, since the short/long rests core mechanics  of 5e works perfectly for my purposes and the way I run adventures

Divine Spark -> one more healing options and one more damaging option, the class already has too many of both (especially Life Cleric)

Holy Order -> martial weapon proficiency to potentially every cleric is a bit too good, I'd rather have it exclusive to a very few domains 

Blessed Strikes -> besides this being boring (already too many 5.0 domain granted Divine Strike instead of having more variety) now it defaults every Cleric to radiant damage, meaning even less variety

Holy Order (9th level) -> since the three options available are completely different, most likely the second choice ends up being redundant for your character

Divine Intervention -> irrelevant change from 7 days to 2d6/2d4 days, one more number you have to write somewhere and keep track of

Generally speaking this is again mostly change for the sake of change (they MUST publish a 50th years anniversary edition, so they are changing bits only to make the update relevant) plus power creep on what is possibly the last class in the game that needs that.

Your mileage might vary, and if you're bored and think you need new books to boost your interest in the hobby, go ahead and support the change, but to me there is nothing here that improves my game significantly, only stuff that is irrelevant or gets in the way we're already playing.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 8, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> Generally speaking this is again mostly change for the sake of change (they MUST publish a 50th years anniversary edition, so they are changing bits only to make the update relevant) plus power creep on what is possibly the last class in the game that needs that.
> 
> Your mileage might vary, and if you're bored and think you need new books to boost your interest in the hobby, go ahead and support the change, but to me there is nothing here that improves my game significantly, only stuff that is irrelevant or gets in the way we're already playing.




My mileage does vary. Heavily. Although I see your concern about the actual abilities, the change is for the streamlining of the game. Having a uniform progression in subclas that might open further design space down the road (subclass instead of multiclass etc.).

So what I see is rebuilding the system in a way that removes inconsistencies and bugs at the bottom level that prevents it to work properly without bugfixes.

Over 8 years symptoms of those limitations show (background features mostly unused, class overaching subclasses difficult to implement, combat maneuvers that are informed by a non-combat skill, too worthwhile level dipping and choice overload at level 1).

And calling people bored, because they want the system to be tiedied up seems disingenuous on top.


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## Li Shenron (Dec 8, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> Although I see your concern about the actual abilities, the change is for the streamlining of the game. Having a uniform progression in subclas that might open further design space down the road (subclass instead of multiclass etc.).



That is, in fact, one change I did not mention, when I said _almost _all are for me a change for the worse. I was in favor of a uniform subclass progression since 5e playtest.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 8, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> That is, in fact, one change I did not mention, when I said _almost _all are for me a change for the worse. I was in favor of a uniform subclass progression since 5e playtest.




You can't eat your cake and have it.

Either you change it or you don't.


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## Li Shenron (Dec 8, 2022)

UngeheuerLich said:


> You can't eat your cake and have it.
> 
> Either you change it or you don't.



I am aware of that, and I choose not to change it. Uniform progression would be nice but doesn't compensate for the negatives.


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## UngeheuerLich (Dec 8, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> I am aware of that, and I choose not to change it. Uniform progression would be nice but doesn't compensate for the negatives.




I see it differently. But I refuse to call that "out of boredom".


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## Clint_L (Dec 8, 2022)

You could support some changes and not others...

That's why they are having a play test and collecting feedback. So you could support uniform level progression but not most of the other class changes. Personally, I take your points but none of the changes really excite or bother me much. I suppose that reinforces your argument about change for the sake of change, which is something WotC needs to watch out for.


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## Sir Brennen (Dec 8, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> Channel Divinity changed from short-rest based to long-rest based -> this is a dealbreaker for me, since the short/long rests core mechanics  of 5e works perfectly for my purposes and the way I run adventures



Note that the playtest cleric gets one more Divine Channel right off the bat compared to the 5E, which is pretty much equivalent to getting one back after a short rest. The playtest cleric stays ahead of the existing one in terms of number of Channel Divinitys, having 6 at 18th level compared to 3 for the existing class.


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## Stalker0 (Dec 8, 2022)

Chaosmancer said:


> Life Cleric Preserve life should just heal. It is _waay_ to difficult at the table for people to figure out half their hp, and how many hp they can gain before they hit half hp. Just let them throw out a massive heal. Sure, maybe that means the Barbarian gets healed for 50 hp instead of 15, while the wizard gets 5, and the rogue gets 10 and 20 points gets wasted, but that's fine.



I agree with this. For example in one of the games that I run, players are not allowed to tell each other their hps (nor do I tell them the monsters).

Its a simple chart:
1) Full HP
2) Taken some damage
3) Bloodied (half Hp or less)
4) Unconscious

But the life cleric's ability throws a wrench every time, I basically have to give the players some of that info back or else the ability doesn't really work, which is quite annoying.


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## Ashrym (Dec 9, 2022)

Li Shenron said:


> Channel Divinity moved one level earlier -> this means you have 2 resource-based ability to manage at 1st level instead of one (spells), more mandatory complexity already at the start of the game
> 
> Channel Divinity changed from short-rest based to long-rest based -> this is a dealbreaker for me, since the short/long rests core mechanics  of 5e works perfectly for my purposes and the way I run adventures
> 
> ...




Channel Divinity:  Managing resources earlier or later doesn't change much IME.  A person still ends up managing them.  I'm also concerned about the short rest vs long rest changes but 2 to 6 per day plus thaumaturge recovering 1 on a short rest seems similar enough overall if a player wants that.  I suspect most players are going to take protector and thaumaturge for the armor, cantrip, and extra channeling.  

Divine Spark:  It's extra healing or damage for other clerics than the life cleric, saved resources for the like cleric, and possibly the opportunity to use spells for other than healing for the life cleric.  Players with clerics want to use spells for things other than healing and this helps with that option.  It's kind of nice to spend a spell slot on a smite spell instead of a healing word.  ;-)  Plus, it also sucks to not have the opportunity to use channel divinity if there aren't undead around.

Holy Order:  This does look pretty good.  It's mostly done through subclass already, however, so it's not really new.  I disagree that having 2 choices is redundant.  Any cleric can use 2 out of 3 of those options.

Divine Intervention:  This ability has always sucked and play test version doesn't seem to change that.  It caters to dice roller addiction and players hoping to get lucky with those rolls.  It's better when a person can auto-succeed the check but the recharge is limiting.

I'm not pushing for a new edition and am not bored with this one.  If the new edition insists on those shared spell lists I'll very likely stick with what I have now.  Shared mechanics can negatively impact the uniqueness of each class in a class based system so not a fan so far.


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## Mind of tempest (Dec 10, 2022)

seems okay with more diverse construction options, still think divine magic is a bad setting idea for how dnd works.

interesting when we get to the other castors or warriors as that will be interesting.


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## Yaarel (Dec 13, 2022)

Henadic Theologian said:


> Looking at the structure of subclasses being the same for all classes, I doubt it's just to ease terminology, it's setting the table for subclasses like in the Strixhaven playtest to actually work properly.



Yeah.

The Character Advancement table, schedules what every class gets at each level. When every class gets subclasses at the same levels, there are two great benefits.

Prestige classes, sotospeak, that any class can take.

A new way of doing multiclassing, where one takes an other class instead of a subclasses, thus the main class wont fall behind.


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