# Lost Homeland OOC



## Dog Moon (May 29, 2006)

OOC discussion of whatever.


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## Dog Moon (May 29, 2006)

*Important Stuff*

[Sblock]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[/sblock]

1. Entrance
2. The Registry
3. Hall of Farewell
4. Traveling Dead Services

16. Heldon's Dreams

18. Ren's Place
19. Tower Theatre

22. Laphen's House
23. The Ox and the Stag

25. The Baths

27. Piran Sedestadel


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## Dog Moon (May 29, 2006)

*NPCs*

Chigo:
Gleb [Svirfneblin; m; High Cleric of Civitatem]

Lank of the Dead:
Benvenuto [Human; m; dead guy]

Vita [Human (Morok); f; dead girl]


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## Dog Moon (May 29, 2006)

*Magical Item Creation*

[SBLOCK]
1. Specific magical weapons and armor are not limited to that type.  A mace of terror, for example, could just as easily be  a sword of terror.  If an item does not logically fit into another category, it cannot be that type of weapon.  For example, a Javelin of Lightning cannot be made into a sword.

2. Specific weapons and armor can have bonuses added to them.  The specific items are the basic items and one specific item cannot be added to another.  If a weapon costs 7,000gp, it is an equivalent to a +2 weapon (7k rounds up to 8k) and +8 worth of weapon bonuses can be applied to it.  Often, prices include the price of the weapon.  This is not included in the rounding.

3. Just as magical energies can be added to a weapon or armor, they can be stripped from it.  Bonuses can be removed from weapons at 10% the cost it takes to add them.  They can also be transferred to other weapons.  This costs 10% of what it that ability cost to add it to the weapon [the enhancement is always considered as the last ability placed on the weapon] as well as 50% the cost of what it would normally be to add the enhancement to the second weapon.  For example, a person decided to remove the flaming ability from a +1 keen, flaming speed Long Sword and add it to a +2 Long Bow.  The Long Sword is considered a +7 weapon and removing the flaming property brings it to a +6 weapon.  The cost to turn a +6 weapon into a +7 weapon is 26,000gp so the cost to remove the property would cost 2,600gp.  To add it to the Long Bow increases it from a +2 to a +3 weapon, which costs 10,000gp normally.  Thus, at 50% cost, would only cost a total of 5,000gp.  The total cost to remove the flaming weapon from the first weapon to the second is 7,600gp.

Note: Removing an enhancement from a weapon does not incur the chance to lose hp, but adding it does, as normal.

Note: Removing a property does not give the caster any Craft Points back, but nor does it cost any.  Adding the property to the second weapon still incurs Craft Points, though only half the amount are used.

4. There is no 'cost to create' on specific weapons and armor.  The cost is based off the price like everything else.

5. You can upgrade items with bonuses by paying the difference between the two.  Thus items like cloak of resistance are similar to bonuses of a weapon or armor.

6. Magical Items have a chance of being flawed.  The chance isn't great, but it is still there.  Only I know the chance of this occurring.  [Flaws are not necessarily bad; mainly, it adds a little extra interest to an item and makes some of them a little more unique.]

7. Items which grant bonuses to a stat do not exist (Periapt of Wisdom, Amulet of Health, etc).  Books and Tomes DO exist, but they are more rare.

8. Magical items no longer cost XP to create.  Instead, Craft Points are used.  Consider them similar except that instead of spending an amount of XP equal to 1/25th the cost, you spend a number of Craft Points equal to 1/10th the cost.  Thus a 100gp item instead of costing 4 XP now costs 10 Craft Points.  If you do not have enough Craft Points, for obvious reasons, you cannot create the item.


```
Craft Points Gained by Level
[U]Character		Craft Points			Total Craft
Level			Gained				Points*[/U]
1st			100				100
2nd			200				300
3rd			300				600
4th			400				1,000
5th			500				1,500
6th			600				2,100
7th			700				2,800
8th			800				3,600
9th			900				4,500
10th			1,000				5,500
11th			1,100				6,600
12th			1,200				7,800
13th			1,300				9,100
14th			1,400				10,500
15th			1,500				12,000
16th			1,600				13,600
17th			1,700				15,300
18th			1,800				17,100
19th			1,900				19,000
20th			2,000				21,000

Item Creation Feats
				Craft Points
Feat				Gained
Brew Potion			1,500	
Craft Construct			3,000	
Craft Magic Arms and Armor	2,500	
Craft Rod			4,500	
Craft Rune Circle		2,000
Craft Staff			6,000	
Craft Wand			2,500	
Craft Wonderous Item		1,500	
Forge Ring			6,000	
Graft Flesh			3,000
Manufacture Magical Poison	1,500
Scribe Scroll			500	
Magical Artisan			500
```

9. When creating magical items, a caster has a 20% chance to lose 1 hp/100 XP which would normally be spent.  If the XP is less than 200, then no roll is made.  If the item costs 800XP normally, the caster has a 20% chance to suffer the permanent loss of 8hp.  This represents a cost in creating magical items [Instead of XP].  Lesser magical items are fairly common while more powerful items are less common because of the chance to permanently weaken the caster.  Note: These hp are permanent and cannot be restored through any means.  Increasing Con and gaining a level affect hp normally, though those lost through item creation are gone for good.
[/SBLOCK]


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## Dog Moon (May 29, 2006)

*Feats/Skills*

[SBLOCK]
1. Characters have weapon groups from the Unearthed Arcana.

2. No favored classes or penalties for having two classes apart in level.

3. No Use Magic Device skill.

4. There is no Improved Toughness feat.  Instead, Toughness grants +1 hp/HD [it does not have the Fort save prerequisite and can be taken multiple times].

5. Regional Feats are limited as per normal rules.  Each nation I have has it's own set of normal Regional Feats.

6. Spell Focus increases the DC of spells by +1.  Greater increases it to a total of +3.

7. Common does not exist anymore.  There is no universal human language.  Each nation has their own language.  Other monsters languages are normal.

8. Dodge gives a flat +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class instead of a single target.

9. Characters gain an additional 2 skill points at each level (8 at first level) which can be used in only the following ways:

Each group of people [nation or race] has a number of skills of which most people know or are familiar with.  Half must be spent in any of these skills [4 points at first level and 1 each following level] though the points don't all have to be in one skill.  The nations have generally around four choosable skills and the races around two.  If you think of a choice more appropriate than one of the ones listed or come up with an interesting idea I should incorporate into the race, speak with me and there is a chance I will modify the race if it doesn't completely go against the ideas of the race.

The other half can be spent in any other Craft, Knowledge, Perform, or Profession skill of the player's choice.

10. The character gains a feat at each level.  However, at 1st level and every 3rd level after, this feat must be chosen from the character’s racial and regional feats.  Feats for organizations and deities may also be created.

11. Knowledge (local) applies only to a single nation.

However, for every five ranks in that nation, he gains a +1 circumstance bonus which stacks with itself to Knowledge (local) of all other nations.  For those other Knowledge (local) skills he has ranks in, he instead gains a +1 circumstance bonus for every four ranks.  Thus a character with 20 ranks in Knowledge (Chigo) and say 1 rank in Knowledge (Fareral) would gain +5 in Knowledge (Fareral) and +4 in all other Knowledges.   
This is applied only once however.  So a character with 20 ranks in two Knowledges would not gain +8 in all other knowledges.  
This has to do with the fact that nations interact with each other and that people travel and move to different nations.

12. Skill Focus [Concentration] replaces Combat Casting in all occurrences, like Prerequisites, for example, of either other feats or PrCs.
[/SBLOCK]


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## Dog Moon (May 29, 2006)

*Spells*

[SBLOCK]
1. No Find the Path.

2. Although Speak with the Dead contacts the body, a character with a Caster Level of 9th level or higher can actually contact the spirit of the dead instead of merely the body.

3. Spells which have a save or Death do not exist in my campaign.  I dislike using them as a DM and I dislike anything dying simply because they roll bad once.

4. Because there is no Shadow Plane, Ethereal Plane, or Astral Plane, spells which require the existence of any of the above do not exist.  Therefore, Blink, Teleport, Shadow Walk, etc. do not exist in my world.

5. There is no True Resurrection.  Raise Dead is a 6th level spell, and Resurrection is a 9th level spell.  Reincarnate remains as a 4th level spell, but can only be cast by the Chosen of Webyrd.  However, the target always receives some sort of additional physical alteration as well as the normal penalties of coming back from the dead.

6. Necromantic spells hurt to cast.  Whenever a spell from the Necromantic school is cast, the caster suffers nonlethal damage [subdual] damage equal to twice the spell level of the spell.

7. Spells which increase a stat (Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc) do not exist.

8. Summoning spells are not cast because there is a chance of an Infernal [Demons or Devils, essentially] will come in place of the target creature summoned.  It is not guaranteed, but it is thought that the more powerful the summoning spell, the more powerful the Infernal and the higher the chance of it appear instead of the target creature.

Note: Demons or Devils cannot be summoned normally through a Summoning spell.

Note: the Infernals are not controlled by the caster as normal.  Summon Nature's Ally, however, does not work the same way.  It instead brings a creature from one place to another, drawing on the essences in the surrounding areas to create an animal, although the animal can only be of a kind normally found in the natural surroundings.  Once the creature is destroyed or the spell ends, the essences break apart and disperse back into the nature.  Casters of Summon Nature's Ally do not have to worry about Infernals hopping a ride on their spell.

All Summon spells only take a Standard action to cast.  However, the creatures do not appear until the next round when the caster goes, but the Summoned creature can then attack as normal.

9. Because alignment does not exist in my campaign, spells requiring alignment do not exist.  Thus spells such as Protection From Evil, Detect Good, Holy Word, etc. do not exist in my world.

10. Spells dealing with portals and other planes are less common than normal.  Portal magic is difficult to find information on and even the Gods themselves do not offer this information easily.  The planes do not exist quite so freely in this world as they do on other planes.  Travel between them is much less frequent than normal.  Most often, the only way to reach these planes is by traveling through a portal, but the locations of these portals are thought to be unknown by all but a very small number.  The only exception of this are the created portals to the Land of the Dead.
[/SBLOCK]


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## Dog Moon (May 29, 2006)

*Misc*

[SBLOCK]
1. Using the Unearthed Arcana optional XP system.

2. There is no level loss penalty from dying, even from Raise Dead.  There are a number of penalties, however, which can possibly occur by being brought back to life.  Each time a character is brought back to life, that character suffers a single penalty.  Multiple deaths equals multiple penalties.

Because the caster also suffers a penalty, it is a little difficult to find someone to cast Raise Dead or Resurrection.  Depending on the religion, they might choose to reject casting the spell no matter what or they will agree, but will require something from the character.  Money is always required.  

3. Character creation begins using standard Point Buy.  Their first character in a given campaign also roll 2d8 and if that roll is higher than the stat as is, then that roll becomes the stat [Done BEFORE adding racial modifiers].  However, this is to be done in front of me because this method is a test and thus I need to see it to determine whether I want to keep it or not.  At each level, gain [level +1] additional points.  At each level, half the number of points gained [rounded down] will be spent on a random stat [1d6, 1 is Str, 2 Dex, etc].  Even if the stat is not actually raised, the points remain.  Thus it would become easier to raise that stat, if so desired.  [Second roll is also to be made by me].

4. Stabalize: Con check DC 15 + amount below Con mod.  Ex: Con mod +4 and at -6 hp, DC would be 17.  A 20 always succeeds in stabilization.  [I'm not sure how well this works, but I would like to try it out]


5. When a character dies, besides the random penalty for dying, he suffers the loss of stat points.  For a Raise Dead and Reincarnate, the character suffers a loss of 2 to her highest stat.  For Resurrect, the character suffers only one point.  The character DOES NOT, however, lose a level or any XP.

6. There is no Astral, Shadow, or Ethereal Plane, so spells interacting with the above do not work.

7. Spellcraft Skill identifies magical items.

```
Potions			25
Scrolls			20 + spell level
Arms and Armor		30
Wands			30
Rods			35
Rings			40
Staffs			40
Wondrous Items	
	Minor		25
	Medium		30
	Major		40
```

Identify adds +20 to a single check, Analyze Dweomer adds +20 until end of duration.  Takes 1 round to identify scrolls, but it takes 1 minute for other items.  Taking 10 or 20 is possible, but takes that much longer to identify.  Having the appropriate Craft feat gives a +5 circumstance bonus on identifying that certain type of item.

Appraise Magic
You are skilled at evaluating magic items and discovering their secrets.
Prerequisite: Appraise 3 ranks.
Benefit: You can use the Appraise skill in place of the Spellcraft skill to identify magic items.  Appraise is always a class skill for you.

Classes with the lore ability allow the identifier to add an additional 1/2 their level to identify checks.

Cursed items are the normal DC +10 to identify their cursed nature.

8.  There is no alignment, nor spells, feats, etc. dealing with alignment.
[/SBLOCK]


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## Charberus (Jun 28, 2006)

*To Do List for Manifest*

1. [Join] Piran Sedestadel: I will try and see if Vita and/or I can join the guild.  Maybe she has talent, maybe not.    If either of us can join the guild, then we can get information and have contacts.

2. [Join] Tower Theatre: The best canidate for this is Skitter, who has ranks in perform (also has tricks learned too).   Also, I will try and get information from the plays and people.  Seeing what they know.  

3. [Join] Fighters Guild: Join the fighters guild mostly to learn how to fight in this land.  Also to learn how to fight with my weapon.  Also, would be a great place to try and invent/learn new battle techniques for my weapon.  Since, fighters guild needs weapons, they probably have a special blacksmith too.


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## Dog Moon (Jul 20, 2006)

Okay, gonna start this 1 at a time.  If this goes poorly or w/e, we can stop or something.



> Specific magical weapons and armor are not limited to that type. A mace of terror, for example, could just as easily be a sword of terror. If an item does not logically fit into another category, it cannot be that type of weapon. For example, a Javelin of Lightning cannot be made into a sword.




My thoughts: _I just don't see why some abilities cannot apply to different weapons.  I have only used this a couple of times; no game breaking thing.  Sometimes, an idea fits a character, but I like to use a different weapon._


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## Aereas (Jul 20, 2006)

Of that I agree fully with. I have actually ested that rule in 2 pbp games and as of yet the worst it has done is turn a rapier into a bastard sword. A More damage yes, but they could have gotten a bastard sword and enchanted it anyway to the near same effect.


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## Charberus (Jul 22, 2006)

Well, I agree flavor has to make sense.  But, a javlin of lightning brings up a picture of actually throwing a lightning bolt.  Although it doesn't sound that great, the visual image is there.   

I do think some abilites should stick with certain types of weapons though.   Unless modified, certain bludgeoning weapons do (like mace of Smiting) should not be changed into other weapons.  Of course, if you keep the flavor of the weapon the same, and have a sword bludgeoning too like the mace...then i would say it is still good to do.


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## Dog Moon (Jul 22, 2006)

Okay, consensus: good HR.  

Next! [May take a while, but I like that we all know exactly what we think about the rules]



> Specific weapons and armor can have bonuses added to them. The specific items are the basic items and one specific item cannot be added to another. If a weapon costs 7,000gp, it is an equivalent to a +2 weapon (7k rounds up to 8k) and +8 worth of weapon bonuses can be applied to it. Often, prices include the price of the weapon. This is not included in the rounding.




Thoughts: _Honestly, I would prefer to take the properties that are found only on specific weapons/armor and turn them into bonuses or cash modifiers, but the method I have above is easier to deal with and doesn't force me to change so many abilities.  However, the main reason I created this was because [at least in 3.0] it sucked to find a cool weapon like Flametongue, but since it's only +1 with abilities and can never be modded, it sucks as you level and fight creatures with DR +2/x.  Not so much a problem anymore, but I still like this rule cause it adds more customability/flexibility._


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## Charberus (Jul 25, 2006)

I like that rule too.  I am annoyed at not being able to mod the already made items.   

Now, how do you go about adding interesting spells from spell compendium to an already existing special weapon?


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## Dog Moon (Jul 26, 2006)

Charberus said:
			
		

> Now, how do you go about adding interesting spells from spell compendium to an already existing special weapon?




Case by case basis, I'm sure.  Depends completely on the spell.  Wouldn't make sense for a lot of them.


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## Aereas (Aug 4, 2006)

This is another rule I have put into test on 2 pbp games. So far I am the only one who has made use of it. Of those times I've used it I haven't found it to be abusable as the cost sets a good balancing factor already. In some cases you end up with a weapon thats inferior to what one could do with full customization of the standard abilities.

All in all, I say this is a good one to add. As you both said it adds a nice mix of customization/flexibility (not to mention giving it a use in higher leveled games) without the worry of breaking the rules in a bad way.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 5, 2006)

Okay, short version without all the math:



> Just as magical energies can be added to a weapon or armor, they can be stripped from it. Bonuses can be removed from weapons at 10% the cost it takes to add them. They can also be transferred to other weapons. This costs 10% of what it that ability cost to add it to the weapon [the enhancement is always considered as the last ability placed on the weapon] as well as 50% the cost of what it would normally be to add the enhancement to the second weapon.




You know, I'm not entirely sure I like this one or not.

Why I do: _You find a +3 sword.  You already have a +2 flaming sword.  Instead of just selling the +3 sword and then deciding whether to increase your own, you can just transfer some of the bonus from that sword to yours.  [although this would be cooler without just the basic +'s, i admit].  This has the benefit that even weapons you don't want [finding a Long sword when no one uses it] can become useful to you anyway._

Why I don't: _Specific weapons [both in books and from my head] don't become truly unique or special anymore.  "Oh, that has a cool ability, I'll take it."  Flametongue without any flames is just kind of...blah, if you know what I mean._

Thoughts: _Maybe these should be named weapons and that name binds the magical energies and prevents them from being removed or transferred.  Although I think that simply calling a sword by a name shouldn't do anything.  It should somehow mean something..._


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## Aereas (Aug 5, 2006)

This idea doesn't really appealed to me. It seems like a way to reduce the cost of enchanting an existing item and all you need is the ability. Using this idea you could buy a +1 flaming weapon and pay to have flaming transfered to your +3 holy thundering lance for much less than it would to actualy enchant it.

I agree that naming a sowrd shouldn't bind the items powers but perhaps utilizing a true name could. Then if you want to unbind the powers you need to discover the true name.


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## Charberus (Aug 6, 2006)

I always try and name my weapons if i have them.  Even if they are nonmagical.  I do this mostly because I like the idea of having weapon 'extend' the concept of my character.  

The way I see named magical items are 'birthed' are by: 1) soul of the user so loved the item that they formed a 'bond.' 2) As character uses items for a specific purpose that the enchantment are enchanted in a way that it fits the name (Like the frost sword "Iceing Death" Drizzt had). 3) Cult/Guild special weapons as status symbol.  Like a Wounding weapon for a fighters guild might have a 'lore' from the townfolks.  This lore is usually brings fright or recognizeablity to people seeing it.  

When you mentioned 'truenames' being as a way to unbind the magic and stuff, I sort of disagree on that.  A named weapon should NOT have magic stripped away.  A named item like a flametonge is unique because of flavor.  If you stip off the fire resist it gives because you don't 'want' it, then the weapon really ceases to be a flametongue.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 6, 2006)

Charberus said:
			
		

> I always try and name my weapons if i have them.  Even if they are nonmagical.  I do this mostly because I like the idea of having weapon 'extend' the concept of my character.
> 
> The way I see named magical items are 'birthed' are by: 1) soul of the user so loved the item that they formed a 'bond.' 2) As character uses items for a specific purpose that the enchantment are enchanted in a way that it fits the name (Like the frost sword "Iceing Death" Drizzt had). 3) Cult/Guild special weapons as status symbol.  Like a Wounding weapon for a fighters guild might have a 'lore' from the townfolks.  This lore is usually brings fright or recognizeablity to people seeing it.
> 
> When you mentioned 'truenames' being as a way to unbind the magic and stuff, I sort of disagree on that.  A named weapon should NOT have magic stripped away.  A named item like a flametonge is unique because of flavor.  If you stip off the fire resist it gives because you don't 'want' it, then the weapon really ceases to be a flametongue.




The naming thing was just an idea I had to prevent some items from having some misc. magical property from being removed from them.  I'm going to assume that truenames were mentioned because against real people, truenames were very powerful [such as the end of NWN, the 2nd expansion].  Having knowledge of the truename would have the same power over an item.

However, since you both also seem to be against it and I was leaning in that direction, I'm going to remove that House Rule.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 6, 2006)

Next!



> There is no 'cost to create' on specific weapons and armor. The cost is based off the price like everything else.




I'm removing this rule, but because I realized that it is a totally useless rule.  I guess having totally misread the item creation rules would lead me to create a meaningless rule.


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## Aereas (Aug 6, 2006)

he he...I was thinking you were just saying that the PC didn't get charged for the creation of the nonmagical item. As in a sword +2 would cost 8k nd not 8.3k.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 6, 2006)

Well, I'll go onto the next cause there's no real point in discussing the previous one...



> You can upgrade items with bonuses by paying the difference between the two. Thus items like cloak of resistance are similar to bonuses of a weapon or armor.




Thoughts: I guess I just don't see why not, although without the stat boosting items, I guess there isn't as much point to it.  I think there's so few items like this I may just take this out [and save an additional couple of lines of space ].


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## Aereas (Aug 6, 2006)

There still are a number of items this can be used on
Cloaks of resistance, Rings of protection, bracers of armor, (depending on how loosly you restrict it) upgrading silent on armor to greater silent, Ammy of nat armor....

Ok, I thought there was more but that really sums it all up.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 6, 2006)

So if you're trying to defend the number of items this can be used on, does this mean you like the House Rule?


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## Charberus (Aug 6, 2006)

I don't think that any property should go on any item (like boots of natural armor, headband of dex).  That stuff just doesn't seem right.  There still should be a limit to what properties items should have.  Wotc has posted on this stuff before and gone into alot of good details as to why certain items have certain properties.


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## Aereas (Aug 6, 2006)

I do like it as it doesn't really make sense that if you wanted to take a cloak of resist +2 and raise it to +3 that youd have to buy a whole new cloak. I see no reason why you couldn't just pour alittle more magic into it and raise the enchantment without making it anew. Afterall you can add an entire second item to it.

I'm not sure what brought up Brian's comment and would comment on it but no time right now.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 6, 2006)

Charberus said:
			
		

> I don't think that any property should go on any item (like boots of natural armor, headband of dex).  That stuff just doesn't seem right.  There still should be a limit to what properties items should have.  Wotc has posted on this stuff before and gone into alot of good details as to why certain items have certain properties.




I admit I'm a little confused as to what brought this up as well.  I was talking about how you can upgrade a +1 weapon to a +2 weapon by paying 6k instead of selling the +1 weapon and buying a +2 weapon...

which is exactly what you'd normally need to do with a Cloak of Resistance +1.  For that Cloak of Resistance +2, you'd need to sell the +1 [for 500gp] and then buy the +2 cloak [for 4k].  With this House Rule, you could instead pay the difference [which is 3k].


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## Charberus (Aug 8, 2006)

Ah.  My bad.  I was remembering what Wotc had for rules about placing enchantments on items that normally shouldn't get them.  

You will have to pardon that comment.  Sometimes I misread a post every so often.  Thanks for pointing that out.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 8, 2006)

Okay, gonna assume that's a keeper and go onto the next:



> Magical Items have a chance of being flawed. The chance isn't great, but it is still there. Only I know the chance of this occurring. [Flaws are not necessarily bad; mainly, it adds a little extra interest to an item and makes some of them a little more unique.]




You don't know what the chance is or really any specifics for this at all, but honestly I prefer that [although I do have the chance written somewhere, it's impossible for me to know what the flaw is going to be beforehand].  It's just my way of adding a little bit of interest to what would normally me totally mundane magical items.  Maybe the Cloak of Elvenkind is truly made out of shadows or maybe that Hat of Disguise causes your hair to grow at a much quicker rate.  I don't know; won't know till I roll and think of something.  Occasionally, an item might have a tiny penalty and sometimes, it might be a little beneficial.


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## Charberus (Aug 12, 2006)

=[ ][*][ ]=TANGENT ALERT =[*][ ][*]=

Speaking of Magic Items.  Have you seen the magic items in Goblins comic.  Now, that is awesome.  And they are lvl 2 (I think).  I know this is a comic, and they can do whatever they want.  But still, the magic weapons/items in that comic are interesting and unique.  THAT is what magic items should be about.  Not just power based off lvl, but something that gives the PC more unique feeling.

Not to mention that there are 2-3 items we already know that is cursed.  (probably more to see later)


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## Dog Moon (Aug 12, 2006)

Of course I've seen that.  We both talked about Goblins when we saw that.  

So... good HR then?


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## Aereas (Aug 12, 2006)

As its only a minor effect I have no problems with it. It adds an air of mystery without disrupting the flow of the game or hindering a character over much. If the penalties began to actualy get pretty bad without good reasoning then things could get bad with this rule.

Of course curiosity drives me to wanting to know what the percentage rates are ^_-


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## Charberus (Aug 15, 2006)

Personally, I feel that curses should actually be tied to the effect of the item then just pure randomness.  If having a Cloak of Flames, which spontanously makes your eyes turn different color doesnt make sense.  But, if the cloak of flames were to make your skin appear more burned, that would be more reasonable.  

A sample would be: Shadowy Cloak of Elven Kind, gains +1 bonus in shadowy areas, but -1 in bright light (like Light spell).  Hat of Disguise, might start fading the colors of the wearers cloths.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 16, 2006)

Charberus said:
			
		

> Personally, I feel that curses should actually be tied to the effect of the item then just pure randomness.  If having a Cloak of Flames, which spontanously makes your eyes turn different color doesnt make sense.  But, if the cloak of flames were to make your skin appear more burned, that would be more reasonable.
> 
> A sample would be: Shadowy Cloak of Elven Kind, gains +1 bonus in shadowy areas, but -1 in bright light (like Light spell).  Hat of Disguise, might start fading the colors of the wearers cloths.




The effects are related to the item.  The only real randomness is the percent chance of this happening or not.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 16, 2006)

Okay, sounds like the previous HR is good, so I'm keeping it.  Now on to the next one:



> Items which grant bonuses to a stat do not exist (Periapt of Wisdom, Amulet of Health, etc). Books and Tomes DO exist, but they are more rare.




Okay, I'm pretty sure I've explained this at least once before, but I'll say it again briefly.  Essently, this is my answer to players going after stat items quickly.  Like when we make a 16th level char, what are the first items we think of?  Stat items.  I'm tired of that.

So how do I counter the game that seems to expect characters having this?  You gain points for point buy at every level, thus increasing your own power natural, which I feel is important.

Considering the fact that I like this HR, the only thing I need a little more of is testing to see how it balances out.  I'll probably go to the next HR in the next day or so.


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## Charberus (Aug 17, 2006)

Personally, I like the items that boost stat points mostly so I can increase the DC of abilites.  Its no fun having abilites that get resisted alot.  I do like the Con/Str abilites so i can absorb and deal more damage. 

If you want to balance it, then make items that have an effect like those effects on stats.  Like an item that increases int for a wizard, would only increase the DC of spells and add a bonus to int based skills like knowledge.  Perhaps range fighters could have better range abilites.  Mostly, negate the actual stat increase and give bonuses that fit the character.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 18, 2006)

But if you use the Points to buy up your Intelligence, you do increase your Intelligence and thus the DCs, etc that comes along with that.  Technically, this is even better than a Headband of Intellect because the Headband doesn't add number of skill ranks.

And if you want to increase your Str/Con, you can.

I think I'm confused as to what your problem is with this.  You claim you want items that increase your stats, but you don't like the idea of making this a completely natural part of your character?  There isn't much difference except that instead of writing down Gloves of Dex +6, as you level, you'll add points to increase your Dex; also, Gloves can be stolen while your points cannot be.


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## Charberus (Aug 19, 2006)

I guess your confusion stems from the fact that my answer was written badly.  When you said you wanted a 'counter,' I thought you meant you wanted to replace items like that (Since we were talking about items previously).  Example: Gloves of Str +2 = Gloves of Battle +1 Attack and +1 Damage.

I guess, you wanted a 'counter' for pernament stuff.   I guess, there could be 3 ways of doing that: Grafts, Ability, Point Buy.  

Grafts: Since grafts are innate, it could be interesting idea to have certain people 'activate' certain grafts that they start with.  These grafts can grow over power.  Like, an Undead Arm or Warforged Arm for a Fighter would grow as if the character bought a Gauntlet of Ogre Str. 

Ability: Perhaps having an ability that suddenly boost the DC/Spell Power/Spell Level for wizards.  Would work like a special Metamagic Feat.  

Point Buy: This could go several ways.  But, I think a good way would to not gain points for a person to distrubute like exp, but gain the stat point to just put into a stat like a pernament item.  An example: A Successful mission that saved the princess at the final castle, would get each adventurer +1 or +2 stat point they can distribute to any stat.  This would almost be considered buying a +2 gauntlet of str or like item.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 19, 2006)

Hrm.  I was trying to stay away from the idea of having items increase stats or replicate what stats do so closely as to almost be like stats.  They would be treated similarly.  Wizards always go for the Headband of Int, for example.  If I created an item that acted as increasing Int without actually increasing the stat, Wizards would simply always choose that item instead.

As for gaining it on missions, perhaps I could, but I'm not entirely sure I like that.  [Not necessarily a bad idea, but that just kinda rubs me wrong].  As you said, it would be like buying that item, which...I kind of want to get over that entire feel.  It's the same thing with my giving a feat at every level.  I want to growth to be of a more personal sort, the focus to be a little more on the character, as opposed to more on what items he/she has.  Treating stats as rewards gives them a feeling that stats are treasures and by doing that, I might as well go back to the items/spells that increase your stats.

Perhaps 'counter' wasn't quite the word I was looking for.  More appropriately would be 'And how do I make up for their loss in a game that almost seems to depend on them?'  My answer would be by increasing the natural ability of the characters through this method.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 21, 2006)

Okay, going onto the next one cause our discussion for the previous HR doesn't seem to be going anywhere.  



> Magical items no longer cost XP to create. Instead, Craft Points are used. Consider them similar except that instead of spending an amount of XP equal to 1/25th the cost, you spend a number of Craft Points equal to 1/10th the cost. Thus a 100gp item instead of costing 4 XP now costs 10 Craft Points. If you do not have enough Craft Points, for obvious reasons, you cannot create the item.




Part of the thing I was doing was to eliminate XP costs for everything, including spells, item creation, character death.  However, I wanted to find a way to limit item creation [instead of just limiting the gold] and when I found this someone had posted a while ago, I thought it was exactly what I was looking for.

However, I have not tested it out yet, so I do not know how balanced exactly the numbers are.

It's similar to the extra Craft Points that several classes such as the Fleshwarper gets, just handled slightly different as mentioned above.


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## Aereas (Aug 21, 2006)

Personaly I prefer the idea of craft points over xp. If you have to use your xp to create an item its almost like your being punished for crafting items (thus why applied learning came around). Sure you gain a few items for a cheaper price but then you begin falling behind in levels. In most cases that trade off isn't worth it.

Same really goes for the death. If you die you lose a level..yet you still have the same foes at the same level who killed you the first time only now your weaker. Unless your on a mission that has no time limit your gonna have to keep going at it but now the challenge is much greater than before.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 22, 2006)

Well, I think using the XP was the main way to balance item creation.  Personally, I think losing a single level to have effectively twice the amount of magical items as everyone else is completely fair.  LA for templates and stuff are not as buff as that, especially considering the variety of usefulness of items.  [And unless yer creating a ginormous mass of items, you shouldn't fall more than like 1 level behind].

However, I am of the mind that I dislike requiring XP for virtually anything.  I had my reasons before, but I don't entirely remember them anymore.


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## Charberus (Aug 27, 2006)

I hate the whole "Lose XP" thing.  I agree that the craft points are a better idea.  What would be cool is to have feats that give ya extra craft points (like feats do for making items cheaper).  

Also, noncaster players would get crafting points, but alot less.  This way, they can donate their crafting points into items they want (so crafting is more 'group' friendly).


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## Dog Moon (Aug 27, 2006)

Charberus said:
			
		

> I hate the whole "Lose XP" thing.  I agree that the craft points are a better idea.  What would be cool is to have feats that give ya extra craft points (like feats do for making items cheaper).




Honestly, I was thinking it would be cool to have a Feat that granted additional Craft Points, but then I realized that you could do the same by taking a different Item Creation Feat where you would also gain more Craft Points, so I decided that I wasn't going to have a feat like that.



			
				Charberus said:
			
		

> Also, noncaster players would get crafting points, but alot less.  This way, they can donate their crafting points into items they want (so crafting is more 'group' friendly).




Maybe, but I think I'm going to discuss this under a different HR that I've been pondering for some time.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 27, 2006)

Okay, next, the last of the magic item creation HRs:



> When creating magical items, a caster has a 20% chance to lose 1 hp/100 XP which would normally be spent. If the XP is less than 200, then no roll is made. If the item costs 800XP normally, the caster has a 20% chance to suffer the permanent loss of 8hp. This represents a cost in creating magical items [Instead of XP]. Lesser magical items are fairly common while more powerful items are less common because of the chance to permanently weaken the caster. Note: These hp are permanent and cannot be restored through any means. Increasing Con and gaining a level affect hp normally, though those lost through item creation are gone for good.




I have several reasons for creating this:

1. The first, and the smallest reason, is that I felt that I needed some way to counteract the free Craft Points.  Using our old system, we simply had a feat that essentially granted us enough bonus XP to use for items.  Now, however, you gain these Points [Craft instead of Experience] for free, so I thought maybe something should balance it out.

2. The second is that I wanted lesser items to be more common and greater items to be a little more rare.  Thinking of a reason as to why this might be, I thought of why they might also drain XP.  My reasoning was because they could be dangerous.  They used a part of the caster's life to power them.  I thought hp was a good way to do this without using XP.  This way, low power items do not inflict hp [cause they use less than 100XP] while the more powerful items have a chance to hurt greatly, a scary thought which is why higher power items are created less frequently.

3. I wanted some flavor.  

I'm not sure, however, that I like the set number, or that it is a good number.  I think that higher power items should have a greater chance and lesser power items while at the same time, casters with more experience should have a lower chance of this occurring than those without much experience.


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## Charberus (Aug 29, 2006)

Losing pernament HP is really bad idea.  Wizards/Sorcs already have a weak enough hp already, why would you want them to pernamently lose hp because of it?  It is hard enough having to spend a feat just to get extra hp, and even then it isn't alot.  

From the last couple of post, you have already added alot of flavor to making items.  You have both positive and negative to it.  Now, you want even more flavor by penalizing the maker with hp.  That is just taking it abit far.

I have always been a fan of 'getting special material' or 'capture event' that gets magic items their unique properties when making it.   This not only gives the weapon a more personal touch, but also gives the character more 'ties' to the item.  Plus, also gives DM a campaign idea.  

As for pernament hp, I seriously don't like that rule.  Its like kicking the wizard in the crotch with a Melfs Acidic Boot for creating powerful items.


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## Dog Moon (Aug 29, 2006)

At the moment, I don't really see any other negatives to creating magical items.  Correct me if I'm wrong.  [And flawed, despite the name, isn't really flawed, so I wouldn't count that at all.]

Personally, I've been a big fan of themed campaigns and constantly having the group separate from that to go searching for some special material or something just interrupts that.  'Hrm, the Orc army is on the verge of attacking?  Well, I would like a sword +1 flaming, so we need to spend a week finding a rare ore in a volcano and then spend the few days to enchant it.'

I want casters to fear creating higher power items.  They should be much more rare than they previously were.  Losing hp is what I thought of rules-wise to reflect that.  It SHOULD terrify casters.  If you have any other suggestions, however, I'll certainly listen to them.


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## Charberus (Aug 30, 2006)

If I was a caster and I was to fear creating magical powerful magical items, then make it something truely worthy of being feared 

For a really powerful item, the item should take alot of the caster's time and magical abilites.  Because of that, perhaps the sword becomes intelligent or there could be a magical backlash that strikes the mind and/or body of the wizard.  Nothing is more terrifying to a wizard then having problems casting spells, casting the wrong spells, or losing control of one's own sanity (although I think Alienist are an exception to this).


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## Aereas (Aug 30, 2006)

The idea I get from this is to hinder a caster for making such a powerful item but not screw them over (as affecting thier spellcasting would do). While a casters hp is often the lowest its also one of the least valuable things to them as most casters take great deals of effort to avoid that first hit and merely need the hp to survive it when it does occur. I don't like the idea of my already dhort on hp wizard losing more hp either, but I would much prefer to lose a few hp that stat points (although with the way stats are done in this game it might not be too bad).

As for the percentages I agree that the weaker items should have a lower percent and the more powerful ones should be higher. Perhaps have a rate something like total number of spell levels required plus 10%. Then you take that total and subtract thier caster level from it. That gets to be alot of math though, so perhaps instead maybe set a range of percentages based on the cost of the item. Perhaps allowing a 1% reduction per caster level or a 3-5% reduction for every item creation feat possesed (afterall, it would make sense that the more you know about crafting the more likely you are to be able to avoid the harmful side of it)


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## Dog Moon (Aug 30, 2006)

Charberus said:
			
		

> If I was a caster and I was to fear creating magical powerful magical items, then make it something truely worthy of being feared
> 
> For a really powerful item, the item should take alot of the caster's time and magical abilites.  Because of that, perhaps the sword becomes intelligent or there could be a magical backlash that strikes the mind and/or body of the wizard.  Nothing is more terrifying to a wizard then having problems casting spells, casting the wrong spells, or losing control of one's own sanity (although I think Alienist are an exception to this).




Hrm.  To me, this seems to be a LOT worse than losing a few hps.  Problems casting spells?  Depending on the severity, this could cripple the Wizard whereas the hps, okay, at next level when you gain points for stats, make sure they go into Con.  Depending on the hp loss it may not completely make up for it, but at least you're not completely crippled...


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## Charberus (Aug 31, 2006)

Well, I read a couple of books where there were casters with stuttering problems, siezure problems, and some that just had abit of uncontrolled magic.  While some weren't magic induced, it made the casters more interesting as they tried to overcome their 'shortcomings.'  

I am not suggesting such a huge penalty, just something that makes spellcasting abit of a problem.  An example would be to make concentration checks for: Stuttering on vocal spells, shaky hands for material components, or chance for the caster to go into a uncontrolled seizure when casting those powerful spells (which would be like the penalty of the metamagic feat in Complete Arcane [Born of Three Thunders].  

These penalties could also involve sight or the 'range' of spells (like the spells range dont go as far as they used to).  While not debilitating, it would definitly cause the wizard to be more careful.   Its like getting free Flaws feats in UA.  Perhaps their ability to cast from a certain school is penalized, or maybe 1-2 of their damage dice for anything over a certain lvl are always considered 1's.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 1, 2006)

Hrm not really sure I like that.  Well, I'll prolly ask EnWorld at some point in time, but considering that we're probably never gonna get anywhere on this subject, I'm gonna go on to the next one:



> Characters have weapon groups from the Unearthed Arcana.




Well, it's pretty much a standard now.  I think I agreed to this mainly because everyone else already had decided they liked it.  It does allow a greater variety and has allowed me to choose Exotic Weapons when I normally wouldn't have been able to take them, so it's all good.


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## Charberus (Sep 1, 2006)

I agree with you there.  Having the ability to choose a weapon group adds more to the character then just the limited kind.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 2, 2006)

Okay, I'm gonna assume that since Jeff also uses them, he likes this HR as well.    So on to the next one.



> No favored classes or penalties for having two classes apart in level.




Never really liked the idea of favored classes, probably never will.  If people followed them, it would be like trying to make my character more stereotypical.  'Sides, I love multiclassing and viewing multiclassing more as a way to make my character how I view him/her than anything else.  Favored classes restricts that too much.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 3, 2006)

Next!



> Regional Feats are limited as per normal rules. Each nation I have has it's own set of normal Regional Feats.




Although previously, I disliked the idea of having Regional Feats, I've actually become a little more interested in it recently since I read the idea of granting feats at every level and having those which would normally be gained [1,3,6,etc] be either racial feats or regional feats.

Although previously I had the combat v. noncombat, I got tired of everyone not being sure on which are noncombative because everyone has different ideas of noncombative.  I find this new method I'm using above to be a preferable alternative, though it does mean that Regional Feats are not used as freely as before.

I had even asked on EnWorld whether they should be allowed to be taken by others, through training or something, but the general consensus was 'no.'


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## Charberus (Sep 5, 2006)

*Reason for Not Taking Quest*

[sblock=DM Only] Seriously, I have NNOOO idea wtf is going on.  First he says that he can get us through the grand portal, show us where the library is, and tell us that we need to find a book in a library (like a needle in a haystack).  While, as tempting as it is, I figured he would be more helpful in telling us exactly what the actual book is known to look like, as well as what prevents him from just going to the library in the first place and just reading the book there. 

Also, he changes the total description in the latest part, as saying that noone has returned alive and that we have a chance of surviving since we have time to prepare (Which is odd considering we don't have a clue as to what to prepare for...cause NOONE HAS CAME BACK ALIVE!!).  That just screams out DONT DO IT!!!  It also brings up even more questions about the validity of the quest.  How is it, that he can give us information to get us to a place where noone has come back from (which is odd considering he says he will give us a magical item to bring us back...seems like the items haven't worked/or they are in beta stage).  

Which brings me to even more questions about the whole 'book' mission.  A library should contain alot of books.  With the language barrier and possible glyphs I would be unable to read due to that, I would be even more unlikely to even bother going.  At most, I could read 6 pages a day (Read Magic spell), which would be annoying while trying to find a totally undescriptive book with no title.   Also, why does this person want the book in the first place?   I mean, there has GOT to be a reason for wanting a book that is known to have power over life and death.   I dont care if he lies or not, but I would not go on a suicidal mission for just the item he wants to use as decoration (unless it is a cool looking weapon).

If that guy wants to just give money to, according to what he has said: basically jump into a portal and never expect to return only by magical item, and hope you can read/understand what the book cover says...then yah, I guess he can give away money like that.   But, if he really wanted the said book, he would definitly need proof that A) Proof the book exist, B) Reason for wanting the book C) Actual location and map to said location, D) Protection for the book, so the people carrying it don't accidently destroy it/a rival doesn't get it/stuff like that.

Last point, I am starting to think this guy is making everything up.  This guy is talking to us in the street AND wont give us his name or any good description of the item.  He also doesn't seem to think it that important, since he doesn't mind talking about it in the open.  Also, he changes the story about what is known behind the Great Portal...only that noone returns.  What makes me even more suspicious is that this book is said to control the powers of life and death.   Yet, he talks about it so nonchalantly that I doubt it would be worth risking my life for what sounds like normal book (that is if it even exist).   [/sblock]


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## Charberus (Sep 5, 2006)

For Regional Feats, it should be allowed to anyone that spends enough time in the nation to actually warrant a reason for taking it.   Also, if 1 nation has a feat that is based off mountain climbing, then other nations should be able to take it too, but only if there is a reason for taking it.   

Now, lets say the campaign was mostly based off the region with the mountain.  Wouldn't a PC who invested time and energy into climbing mountains (and spent alot of time with other npc of the town to learn climbing), also be able to gain the Feat?  

Regional feats are based feats based off culture, environment, monsters, and lore.  People who live in an area tend to develop those abilites not immediatly, but do eventually gain them.  Mostly by interraction with other people in the area.   Because of that (which I have personally experienced), I feel that Regional feats should be allowed to other PC not from the region....BUT only if they spend time and energy to gain that feat.


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## Aereas (Sep 12, 2006)

Weapon groups: Those I do like for many of the mentioned reasons. The only thing I don't like about them is that wizards get gimped on choices but virtualy everyone else usualy comes out ahead or equal. 

Favored classes: I rarely multiclass to such a point where I even need to worry about this rule. As such It doesn't matter to me one way or another. I'm fine with keeping it just for Josh's severe desire to have 30 classes at once  

Regional feats: Much like Brian said I see no reason why others couldn't learn them later. Hell, using that mountainclimbing example why couldn't someone from a region learn the same feat from another region? He may not even realize its the same skills that region uses, just that he found a way that makes climbing easier. In most cases the sane goes for those feats that are 1st level only.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 13, 2006)

Okay, so assuming I let Regional Feats be taken by outsiders, what prerequisites would you put on them?  They certainly should not be taken easily by outsiders, considering that they are cultural feats as opposed to just normal feats.


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## Aereas (Sep 14, 2006)

If there skill boosting feats require x (prolly around 5 to 8) ranks of that skill (or skills). For some perhaps even require that they be taught by someone of that region (possible monetary requirement as such) or spend twice as long in that region if you desire to train yourself. Some would probably even have both as a prereq.

In most cases they would also have to have decent relations with at least one person of that region who has that feat in order to get it


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## Charberus (Sep 21, 2006)

Depends on how long they stay in the area, and if they activily work to gain that feat.  If the campaign prevents people from wanting that feat (because they can't stay in that area or have a tutor), and they really want it.  Then, I would suggest having the person do research in libraries or finding other people from that area to talk to.  Of course, this would make getting the feat tougher and longer to learn.


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## Dog Moon (Sep 21, 2006)

Hrm.  To take a quick break from this [partly to see if further discussion of this is really even necessary] I would like to ask what you two think about the idea of 1 feat every level while having the feats at 1st, 3rd, 6th, etc be racial/regional feats?  Is there any way you would rather have it?

Atm, I think it's essentially, that, the normal slow progression, simply one every level, and then Jeff's way.  I like my way because when I read it, it just kinda 'struck my fancy' though I can't really put into words specifically why I like it.


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## Aereas (Sep 23, 2006)

I just merely think that with all the options for feats out nowdays a character just doesn't get enough choices anymore. The only real difference between our versions (aside from amount gained) is that mine doesn't allow combat feats (an option that still needs to be better defined) while your could but only if its a regional/facial feat. With your method the only thing I would worry about is that the extra number and allowed (select) combat feats would allow a greater chance to min/max even more feats and pose that much of a greater chance at being potentialy game breaking. Aside from that part I really don't care how many feats we gain.

Long bit short, I like my version because it excludes the selection of alot of extra combat feats, but I like yourse because the feat choices are better defined.


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## Charberus (Sep 30, 2006)

So far, the only good thing I like about jeffs idea is that I end up buying nothing but Openmine feat,  because its such a huge hassle to define 'noncombat' feats.  Since most of the feats tend to have alot of combat in them...its just too much of a hassle.  While openminded is a good feat, I perfer the unique feats that define my character's personality and behavior better.

The good thing about josh's idea is that it allows more combat feats and spice because of racial feats.  It is more defined and adds more uniqueness to characters.  I have noticed that some racial feats are preatty good, some of them are just too simplified for a certain situation for a certain class the race favors.  That part would be abit of an annoyance if your a halforc cleric and all the halforc racial feats revolve around barbarian/fighter.   

What I think you should include in the Racial part are the feats for the Special Feat selections that have very special requirements like: Initiate of '[Deity Name]' feat for divine casters, Membership Feats (like Ettercap Beserker in Unapproachable East), Knight Feats (like the ones in Champions of Valor), and now the Progression Feats (like Aberration/Draconic/Undead).   If you have those special lvls for special racial feats, then maybe the character could add those to it if they wanted.


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