# The Best of the Best - Defenders.



## Kzach (Aug 15, 2009)

Barring a specific request not to do this, I'm going to post a series of polls over the next few weeks to determine the opinion of the ENW populace as to which constitutes the Best of the Best in each particular role, using current rules.

The aim of this series of polls is to ultimately create a set of iconic characters that form the 'perfect' party. Whether you want to use these or not isn't really the issue, it's simply a project I felt compelled to undertake due to sheer boredom.

So, the first of the series is the defender role. Using current rules, with no house-rules and only WotC products, and perfectly legal by way of the Character Builder, which of the following poll options do you consider to be the best defender?


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## Mentat55 (Aug 15, 2009)

In my experience, a sword-and-board fighter or a protecting paladin with the hospitaler PP make it very tough for monsters to go after the squishies.

I voted guardian fighter, ultimately, because the fighter seems to exert a bit more control over the frontline.  Though with the new powers and divine sanction from _Divine Power_, the paladin might be comparable.


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## Leatherhead (Aug 15, 2009)

I'm going with Great Weapon Fighter. Giving a polearm to a fighter allows them to do all kinds of good defender things. They also have a really good mix of offense, defense, and mobility. Their only real lack is in the ranged department, but most defenders suffer from that as well.

I was also considering the Earth Warden.


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## renau1g (Aug 15, 2009)

I voted shielding swordmage, mark from range, leave and engage another foe, but still keep your ally protected? Also, his mark is the only one that prevents damage to his allys. Sure a fighter gets a chance to hit the bad guy if it ignores the mark (which is second best IMHO), but to me nothing better than mitigating a large portion of a monsters attack. I've only played a defender in low-mid heroic so I can't comment higher than that.


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## Storminator (Aug 15, 2009)

Tough for me to vote, as I've only seen 3 of these in play, and 2 of those didn't last long. Of the three, the guardian fighter was the best, by far. The difference in survivability between the great weapon and guardian fighter was impressive.

The assault swordmage looked more fun than useful. And he's dead, so he's not defending anything is he? 

PS


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## Holy Bovine (Aug 15, 2009)

Earth Warden.  THe sheer variety of special attacks and manuevers this class gets is staggering.  The ability to make a save at the start of their turn alone is almost enough to push them to the top imo.  Ive seen a EW single handedly turn the tide of battle back into the partys favour on more than one occasion.  Not something I can say about any of the other defenders.


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## Shroomy (Aug 15, 2009)

I only have experience with my party's dragonborn guardian fighter (a sheer beast), but based on that, its hard to believe there is a better defender out there.


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## Kzach (Aug 15, 2009)

Ooh, I'm happy to see most people agree with me so far although I had suspected that more people would vote for the Battlerager. The recent nerf must've really turned opinion against it.

It will be interesting to see how the poll pans out with more votes and if the current stats remain the same.


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## amysrevenge (Aug 15, 2009)

I hope that the issue doesn't resolve to "which defender can send out the most damage", because that isn't the issue.  


I picked Earth-Warden.  Mostly because of all the powers that truly lock down foes, and the "get over here" on a marked foe.

Close second to Shielding Swordmage.  Third to guardian fighter.

I think that you could make a "perfect party" from a couple of different setups though, based on class power synergy.  The bard's Misdirected Mark, for instance, is super useful for a warden or a fighter, but much less useful for a paladin or swordmage.


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## Bold or Stupid (Aug 15, 2009)

I have an avenging paladin in my main game, his AC is awesome and the player is damn good at choosing the right foe and locking them down s the rest of the group hide behind him and make it hard to be picked as targets.


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## Victim (Aug 15, 2009)

I like Fighter, generally of the Guardian or Battlerager varieties (although polearm Greatweapon can be good too).  They control movement better than many other defenders (Earth wardens are also good here), they can readily mark more than one foe, and they have a footprint on the battle that's much bigger than their immediate reach with Come and Get It.

However, post DP pallies seem to have even better area marking potential.  Sanction has a bite for each marked foe, whereas a Fighter can only punish one enemy per turn.


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## Jools (Aug 16, 2009)

People are underestimating the paladin here. After DP a high wisdom Paladin is incredibly kick ass and durable.


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## AngryMojo (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm going with fighters simply for the movement denial.  The ability to keep a monster in place allows most battles to be fought on the PC's terms, and keeps the monsters from frying squishies.


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## Simm (Aug 16, 2009)

Got to go with the paladin on this one. With DP their one real disadvantage, the inability to perform multiple marks, was removed and while they may not deny damage as well as some other builds they're the only defender who can heal others to any great extent.


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## the Jester (Aug 16, 2009)

The fighter's ability to stop an enemy's shifting or moving is extraordinary. I'm going with guardian fighter.


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## Ktulu (Aug 16, 2009)

I've seen Chaladin, Earth Warden, Guardian fighter, assault Swordmage, shielding swordmage, and battlerager fighter.

The guardian fighter out-paced them all.  Each were pretty decent, but the guardian was nigh-unstoppable, marked and harried so effectively, and almost never missed that it wins out easily, imo.


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## Kzach (Aug 16, 2009)

One thing that just occurred to me as I was reading this was that the original class build from the first PHB seems to be, in the opinions of ENWorlders, either holding it's own or outpacing later builds and classes.

That right there is an argument against power creep.


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## Thanee (Aug 16, 2009)

amysrevenge said:


> I hope that the issue doesn't resolve to "which defender can send out the most damage", because that isn't the issue.




Why not? Killing the opponents is a good way to protect others from them. 

Therefore... GW Fighter. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 16, 2009)

If you are looking for damage, then look at strikers. 

I went with guardian Fighter because it is the hardest to avoid if he is right next to you. Yes, against teleporting enemies, the guardian dos not do well, but not a lot of them out there. With Earth Wardens, simply shift one and then attack whoever you like. Sure, the enemy is shifted back into position, but they still got a free shot at someone else. Wardens are the best at defending themselves, though, hands down. 

Shielding Swordmages are fun, too, and probably have more fun powers than the fighters, but They are just not sticky at all, and  are way on the striker end of the defender line. 

I still think there is power creep, and saying because one class/build in the PHB is still rated the top in a single sele ction of classes (defender) does not prove power creep is not happening.


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## Herschel (Aug 16, 2009)

If I want to "hold the line", it's a guardian fighter, if I want to pull a friend out of trouble it's a Swordmage. If I want to stand in a doorway it's a Warden and if I need to lead also it's a Paladin. If the terrain is more open I want a Tempest Fighter with a spiked chain.


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## amysrevenge (Aug 16, 2009)

Dice4Hire said:


> I still think there is power creep, and saying because one class/build in the PHB is still rated the top in a single sele ction of classes (defender) does not prove power creep is not happening.




OT

I dunno.  You could argue in favour of the Ranger and Warlord too...

/OT


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## Iron Sky (Aug 16, 2009)

Well, strangely enough, we've only had a fighter(Greatweapon) of any variety 1 time and only for a few sessions.  In the games we've played we've had:

Chaladin: levels 1-3(PHB only).
Straladin: levels 10-16(pre-DP, AV, PHB2).
Fighter(Greatweapon): level 10(pre-MP, AV, PHB2).
Swordmage(Assault): levels 3-6(post AP).

There were only one or two sessions that we had 2 defenders in the game at once(Fighter and Straladin).  In the majority of the fights, the Fighter was far more effective a tank than the Straladin, though, to be fair, we were playing with rolled stats and the Fighter rolled 4 18s, a 16, and a 14.

I guess I'd put Paladin > Fighter against 1-monster fights(especially at paragon).  Otherwise, it'd be:

Fighter > Paladin > Swordmage.


The majority of our 4e time has been sans-tank.  Levels 1-9 of our 4-man first real campaign had the ranger and cleric splitting the tanking.  Levels 3-8 of our Scales of War 3-man playthrough has had the cleric tanking as much as he can, but with 3 players, the monsters tend to be able to pick what they want...


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## Mercule (Aug 16, 2009)

Kzach said:


> Ooh, I'm happy to see most people agree with me so far although I had suspected that more people would vote for the Battlerager. The recent nerf must've really turned opinion against it.



I've only seen Greatweapon Fighter and Battlerager Fighter, so far (my group seems to hate shields), though there's talk of a Paladin or Warden if someone dies.  The Battlerager badly outclasses the GW Fighter -- serious freakin' staying power.

The Warden looks pretty good, too, but I haven't seen one in play.


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## fba827 (Aug 16, 2009)

looking at the results so far, lots of people selected guardian fighter.. and more than half selected a fighter of some kind.
that actually makes sense given the fact that the "defender role" was defined using the role a fighter usually takes in the party.
but it is fun to see how some other classes (or rather, specific class feature build selections) are able to match (or beat) that role from individual perspectives/experiences.

at our game table, we've only really seen a guardian fighter and a shielding swordmage, so i don't have enough first hand observational experience make an informed decision - i could only make a choice based on how i think it would play out from the rules i've read.


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## Holy Bovine (Aug 17, 2009)

Glad to see the Earth Warden getting 2nd place here.  I really does deserve it.  It is no surprise to me that the guardian fighter got 1st though - it is good as its job but I still feel the extra options of the Warden really make it shine in the defender role.

To the OP - there is still power creep, imo, but it seems mainly in the form of feats and magic items at the moment.  I couldn't point to any single class we've seen since the first PHB and said 'that is much more powerful than X from PHB 1'.


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## Hejdun (Aug 17, 2009)

I picked Guardian Fighter, but in my experience post-Divine Power Paladins are very solid.  With a plethora of multi-marking powers and multi-attacking powers, not to mention insanely high defenses, they are a force to be reckoned with.  The Paladin's only had Strength from Valor for 2 sessions so far, but my Guardian Fighter is already jealous.  Getting 30 temp hp with one attack is just silly good.


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