# Pathfinder 2 Character Sheet #5: Merisiel, Elf Rogue



## Shasarak (Jul 17, 2018)

Does anyone know what the Pathfinder 2 Playtest rules were for Sneak Attacking against creatures like undead?

Can you do it now, or are Rogues still out of luck?


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## dryxxxa (Jul 17, 2018)

Rogues can normally sneak attack undead and constructs in PF1, need "ghost touch" weapons to sneak attack ghosts and are out of luck when they meet oozes, elementals or swarms (obscure feats from supplement books help to deal with those though). I hope it'll be something similar in PF2.


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## Lylandra (Jul 17, 2018)

note that sneak attack does precision damage. So I guess there will be creatures with resistance or immunity to this type of damage. And we'll likely see precision damage return as a damage type for other classes as well.


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## Banesfinger (Jul 17, 2018)

I guess rogues are no longer a "squishy" class:
HP: 16 (only 3 less than the paladin)
AC: 17/19 with nimble dodge (equal to the Fighter's AC with shield raised)


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## ohokwy (Jul 17, 2018)

Shasarak said:


> Does anyone know what the Pathfinder 2 Playtest rules were for Sneak Attacking against creatures like undead?
> 
> Can you do it now, or are Rogues still out of luck?




I believe the various playtests have revealed that a Rogue can sneak attack zombies, at least. You could sneak attack undead PF1, as well, so its unlikely to be an issue.


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## ohokwy (Jul 17, 2018)

Banesfinger said:


> I guess rogues are no longer a "squishy" class:
> HP: 16 (only 3 less than the paladin)
> AC: 17/19 with nimble dodge (equal to the Fighter's AC with shield raised)




Elves are a 6hp race, as well. Humans are an 8hp race, so if she were human she'd only have 1 less HP than Seelah. Though to be fair she has more CON than Seelah. 

That said, the HP different between Rogue and Paladin (and other full martials like Fighter, etc.) has doubled from a difference of 1/level (4.5 vs. 5.5 per level) to a difference of 2/level (8 vs. 10 per level) so at higher levels Seelah is going to end up with significantly more HP than Merisiel, regardless of the slightly lower CON.


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## mellored (Jul 17, 2018)

ohokwy said:


> Elves are a 6hp race, as well. Humans are an 8hp race, so if she were human she'd only have 1 less HP than Seelah. Though to be fair she has more CON than Seelah.
> 
> That said, the HP different between Rogue and Paladin (and other full martials like Fighter, etc.) has doubled from a difference of 1/level (4.5 vs. 5.5 per level) to a difference of 2/level (8 vs. 10 per level) so at higher levels Seelah is going to end up with significantly more HP than Merisiel, regardless of the slightly lower CON.



Given how the rest of the game scales, the differene is slightly smaller.

4.5 vs 5.5 is a 22% difference.
8 vs 10 is a 25% difference.
16 vs 19 is an 18% difference.


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## Banesfinger (Jul 17, 2018)

mellored said:


> Given how the rest of the game scales, the differene is slightly smaller.
> 
> 16 vs 19 is an 18% difference.




With a 3-4 Hit Point difference between the Rogue and Paladin/Fighter's HPs at 1st-level, that seems pretty negligible considering most of the classes' damage outputs are 1d8+4 (average of 8.5 dmg).
So 'on paper' the AC, HPs and damage output looks negligible between classes.  Hopefully they all "play" differently. (Hopefully the Playtesters will give us some feedback on this).


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## mellored (Jul 17, 2018)

Banesfinger said:


> With a 3-4 Hit Point difference between the Rogue and Paladin/Fighter's HPs at 1st-level, that seems pretty negligible considering most of the classes' damage outputs are 1d8+4 (average of 8.5 dmg).
> So 'on paper' the AC, HPs and damage output looks negligible between classes.  Hopefully they all "play" differently. (Hopefully the Playtesters will give us some feedback on this).



The difference should be pretty small at first level.  Especially if they do typical multi-classing.

And as you gain more level+feats, the difference between classes, and characters of the same class, will spread out.  More in what you can do, rather than a big difference in numbers.


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## parcival42 (Jul 17, 2018)

*Dagger damage*

Did they leave the damage bonus off the dagger entry?  Since it has the Finesse keyword, it should also get the +4 damage modifier the rapier has, correct?


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## lightblade (Jul 17, 2018)

parcival42 said:


> Did they leave the damage bonus off the dagger entry?  Since it has the Finesse keyword, it should also get the +4 damage modifier the rapier has, correct?



No; the dagger line is under Ranged. Since she's throwing it, the damage bonus is her Strength of +0.


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## Staffan (Jul 17, 2018)

ohokwy said:


> That said, the HP different between Rogue and Paladin (and other full martials like Fighter, etc.) has doubled from a difference of 1/level (4.5 vs. 5.5 per level) to a difference of 2/level (8 vs. 10 per level) so at higher levels Seelah is going to end up with significantly more HP than Merisiel, regardless of the slightly lower CON.



I believe they've said they're increasing the relative hp difference between classes (leading to more hp overall), because they want Con to be slightly less valuable. In PF1, a +2 Constitution advantage is enough to get a rogue or cleric up to fighter-level hp, which is a bit annoying.


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## Arrowhawk (Jul 17, 2018)

I don't see that Sneak Attack works against flanked creatures.  Is that no longer thing in P2, or does flanking make someone FF'd?


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## Adso (Jul 17, 2018)

Arrowhawk said:


> I don't see that Sneak Attack works against flanked creatures.  Is that no longer thing in P2, or does flanking make someone FF'd?




Flanking makes a creature flat-footed to you.


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 17, 2018)

Experienced Smuggler is how Pickpocket ought to work: you don't _need_ the feat to smuggle, but you get a benefit if you have it.

The particular floor effect it creates, however, makes me wonder how well it scales into higher levels.


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 17, 2018)

Adso said:


> Flanking makes a creature flat-footed to you.



And does anyone else find it odd that "flat-footed" is a relative condition?


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## mellored (Jul 18, 2018)

TheCosmicKid said:


> And does anyone else find it odd that "flat-footed" is a relative condition?



It's probably not the best term, but it makes sense go have a relative condition for being flanked, or surprised.

Maybe something like 'distracted' would work better.


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## jmucchiello (Jul 18, 2018)

Surprise Attack surprises me. (Ha) Because it means combatants are not normally flat-footed at the beginning of combat.

Also, shouldn't the dagger be listed as both ranged and melee?


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## TheCosmicKid (Jul 18, 2018)

mellored said:


> It's probably not the best term, but it makes sense go have a relative condition for being flanked, or surprised.



Oh, yeah, definitely, no argument there. The old terminology (or lack thereof) for "no Dex bonus to AC against this attacker" was irritating.


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## Sunseeker (Jul 18, 2018)

Just gonna say: that +10HP at 1st level, savor that 4E flavor.

Also: no major changes here as far as I can tell.  Rogue looks pretty rogue.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 18, 2018)

Looks nice the devil is in the detail.


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