# harsh discipline



## S'mon (Aug 18, 2005)

Originally Posted by Felon
>> Comparing their raw damage output with that of a fighter against a single target is just indicative of someone who hasn't really given the matter much thought at all. <<

Plane Sailing:
>>Blanket generalisations like this (highlighted above) are offensive and against the ENworld rules. Please desist.<<

I think this is a completely ridiculous complaint.  I'm all for harsh discipline and a firm hand in moderating, but this is just totally OTT...   :\


----------



## Dinkeldog (Aug 18, 2005)

Remember, if you have a specific issue, you can email the mod directly.  

In this case, Plane Sailing is making the following point:  There is a running problem with certain users delivering generalized insults.  In short, it is quite possible for someone to give the matter thought and consider single target output compared to a fighter.  Belittling people that don't ascribe to your point of view is not a good method for discussion on the boards.


----------



## Pielorinho (Aug 18, 2005)

(Posting as a poster, not a mod)

In general, I think some of the biggest flamewars develop because one poster describes the thought processes of another poster:  "You're just ignoring any argument you don't like," "You clearly didn't read the thread," "Maybe you should actually think before you post?" "It's becoming obvious that you don't understand anything about the rules," and so forth.

It's a good idea, even when arguing with someone who is (you think) a total dweeberiffic imbecile, to refrain from describing the other person's thought processes.  If you have strong arguments to support your view, give those arguments, and don't evaluate the other person's intelligence, motives, or rules-knowledge.

And if you don't have strong arguments to support your view, delay posting while you think about your view, either changing it, or mustering the arguments you need in order to support it.

In this case, saying that someone hasn't given much thought to an issue is a description of their thought process, and risks starting a round of insults, denials, recriminations, and happy fun.  Scratch the happy fun.

Daniel


----------



## msd (Aug 18, 2005)

Pielorinho said:
			
		

> In general, I think some of the biggest flamewars develop because one poster describes the thought processes of another poster




That is one of the more insightful comments I've seen posted on the intarweb about the intarweb...

Truth.


----------



## S'mon (Aug 18, 2005)

OK, I think I understand better where this approach is coming from, although it still seems incredibly harsh to me.

Re contacting mods via email, that would be via the list of emails maintained on this Meta forum?


----------



## S'mon (Aug 18, 2005)

If I have a query re a particular mod's implementation of forum policies, can I contact someone else in addition to the moderator?  eg Plane Sailing once closed a thread re in-game cultures because I posted the historian John Keegan's theory of warlike & non-warlike cultures, and I mentioned America as an example of an (in Keegan's terms) warlike culture.  I disagreed with this decision but I wasn't sure what to do - and I understand this is not a democracy.    Apart from emailing Plane Sailing (in this instance) am I allowed to contact another moderator, if so who (Morrus? Piratecat?) And if I do, do you consider the 'justness' of moderator decisions or is there an unrebuttable presumption of general discretion, ie super-mods will support all moderator decisions?


----------



## reveal (Aug 18, 2005)

I think another issue is that I've seen a lot more of this happening lately. I can name three posters off the top of my head who seem to consistently make sweeping generalizations (spell it right Brits! ) about people who don't agree with them, calling them ignorant or just plain stupid. 2 of them are on my ignore list, which, until recently, I'd never had anyone on in the 3.5 years I've been on this board. 

It could be that Plane Sailing decided to nip it in the bud before it got too bad. Or it could be that he was having a bad day and didn't feel like putting up with it.


----------



## reveal (Aug 18, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> If I have a query re a particular mod's implementation of forum policies, can I contact someone else in addition to the moderator?  eg Plane Sailing once closed a thread re in-game cultures because I posted the historian John Keegan's theory of warlike & non-warlike cultures, and I mentioned America as an example of an (in Keegan's terms) warlike culture.  I disagreed with this decision but I wasn't sure what to do - and I understand this is not a democracy.    Apart from emailing Plane Sailing (in this instance) am I allowed to contact another moderator, if so who (Morrus? Piratecat?) And if I do, do you consider the 'justness' of moderator decisions or is there an unrebuttable presumption of general discretion, ie super-mods will support all moderator decisions?




I would start by e-mailing the mod you disagree with to discuss it. If you don't get a satisfactory answer, then either ask the mod whom you should contact to get a better answer or just e-mail Morrus; he's in charge.


----------



## DaveMage (Aug 18, 2005)

Or start with a moderator, then progress to an administrator (Henry or PC), and then progress to Morrus.

However, the moderators all have a forum where they discuss these types of things, so once you get to admin level, they all might know about any issue.


----------



## Belen (Aug 18, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I think another issue is that I've seen a lot more of this happening lately. I can name three posters off the top of my head who seem to consistently make sweeping generalizations (spell it right Brits! ) about people who don't agree with them, calling them ignorant or just plain stupid. 2 of them are on my ignore list, which, until recently, I'd never had anyone on in the 3.5 years I've been on this board.
> 
> It could be that Plane Sailing decided to nip it in the bud before it got too bad. Or it could be that he was having a bad day and didn't feel like putting up with it.




Hopefully, I am not on reveal's ignore list.  I like reveal.


----------



## Belen (Aug 18, 2005)

I do not mind blanket generalizations unless you are using them to single out one person.  

In general, I think the mods are doing a better and more fair job with their warnings.  There was a point a few years ago where I felt that the mods ignored certain regulars when those regulars flamed people, but that does not seem to be the case anymore and I am happy about that.

Warning someone is not too harsh.  If he had been banned, then maybe.


----------



## Pielorinho (Aug 18, 2005)

I'll let Morrus answer the question about what to do when you aren't happy with a mod's decision, but meanwhile I'll throw in a suggestion: report the mod's post, and explain why you're doing so.  That'll bring it to the attention of all the forum's moderators, and we'll talk about your concern.

Daniel


----------



## Eridanis (Aug 18, 2005)

Ditto what Pielorinho said. We're not infallible (unfortunately), so feel free to communicate with us - VIA EMAIL, not on the boards - if you have a question about a ruling, and we'll certainly consider your opinion. (It helps one greatly if one communicates in a calm manner, as 95% of emails I've seen do.)

We do have our Secret Fortress of Solitude (tm) where we can, and do, discuss rulings, reported posts, and so forth. We just want to make sure ENworld runs smoothly for everyone.


----------



## Henry (Aug 18, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> If I have a query re a particular mod's implementation of forum policies, can I contact someone else in addition to the moderator?




I wouldn't see any problem with doing so, but two things to keep in mind:

1) E-mail the original mod first. Ask politely why something is how it is. Based on how often we get "outraged" responses over curbing someone's tirades, it's refreshing to get a well-reasoned _"this is why I thought this should stay open, and I'm sorry to see it closed."_ and the moderator just may see your reasoning. We've changed decisions before, and it wouldn't be the last time, us being human and all that jazz. 

2) If you do e-mail another Admin to petition, chances are we're going to defer to the moderator, anyway -- their judgment is why we picked them in the first place _(we watch regular posters' behavior & character, and debate a backlist of future mods all the time...)_

So unless you, say, catch me randomly thread-closing and banning you because you used the word "Beholder" in a sentence, it's not likely to change much. _(Believe me, there's been more than once I wanted to ban someone out of frustration because they've mastered the verbal razor's edge between "civil" and "crude"....)_


----------



## reveal (Aug 18, 2005)

Can someone tell me what *BelenUmeria* said?


----------



## Cheiromancer (Aug 18, 2005)

Just want to sidetrack this thread by saying I really like Pielorinho's custom title.  I had never heard the word before.  IMHO it's a worthy addition to the select club that includes Squirrelbears and Jackelopes.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Aug 18, 2005)

Hi S'mon,

In order to make it easier for you and others to contact me without searching out the emails in the meta forum, I've added the vbulletin 'email me' link into my signature (see below).

Please feel to contact me to discuss anything.

Regards,


----------



## Len (Aug 18, 2005)

BelenUmeria said:
			
		

> I do not mind blanket generalizations unless you are using them to single out one person.



I don't get this. It's wrong to insult a person, but it's OK to insult a whole group of people??


----------



## reveal (Aug 18, 2005)

Len said:
			
		

> I don't get this. It's wrong to insult a person, but it's OK to insult a whole group of people??




I think what he means is that it's not fair to say that "everyone" is doing something when you're really calling out one person in a thinly veiled attempt as to not be perceived as doing so.

For example, there was a thread here in Meta a while ago where someone complained that "everyone" was doing ______. In actuality, they were upset that one person was doing ____ but decided that it was a board problem. They were called on it and confessed that it was just one person. That is the wrong thing to do.


----------



## William Ronald (Aug 18, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> I think another issue is that I've seen a lot more of this happening lately. I can name three posters off the top of my head who seem to consistently make sweeping generalizations (spell it right Brits! ) about people who don't agree with them, calling them ignorant or just plain stupid. 2 of them are on my ignore list, which, until recently, I'd never had anyone on in the 3.5 years I've been on this board.
> 
> It could be that Plane Sailing decided to nip it in the bud before it got too bad. Or it could be that he was having a bad day and didn't feel like putting up with it.




I am concerned about this, and generalized insults.  I think that the moderators do the best that they can, but I know that some board members seem to direct insults to those who disagree with them on everything from styles of gaming to specific subjects.  In general, I think we should try not to say something about others and their arguments that we would not want said about ourselves.


----------



## Morrus (Aug 18, 2005)

DaveMage said:
			
		

> However, the moderators all have a forum where they discuss these types of things, so once you get to admin level, they all might know about any issue.




Yep.  Bear in mind that if you do email someone about another mod, it will more than likely be shared with the rest of the mods/admins and discussed.  The response you get will likely be a consensus (did I spell that right?).


----------



## Dinkeldog (Aug 18, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> (did I spell that right?).




Yup!


----------



## reveal (Aug 18, 2005)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> Yup!




Suck up.


----------



## Psionicist (Aug 18, 2005)

Morrus said:
			
		

> Yep.  Bear in mind that if you do email someone about another mod, it will more than likely be shared with the rest of the mods/admins and discussed.  The response you get will likely be a consensus (did I spell that right?).




I hope all of you have reached the age of consensus.


Sorry.


----------



## Dinkeldog (Aug 18, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Suck up.




I refrain from correcting another's spelling and grammar, as a rule.  Give me an opening, though, and I'm all over it.


----------



## reveal (Aug 18, 2005)

Dinkeldog said:
			
		

> I refrain from correcting another's spelling and grammar, as a rule.  Give me an opening, though, and I'm all over it.




Your just mad you're grammar and speeling aren't as good as mine.


----------



## S'mon (Aug 19, 2005)

OK, thanks everyone for advice (and off-topic nattering) 
I've tried pressing the 'report bad post' button but I don't actually dare send anything at this time...

>>I'll let Morrus answer the question about what to do when you aren't happy with a mod's decision, but meanwhile I'll throw in a suggestion: report the mod's post, and explain why you're doing so. That'll bring it to the attention of all the forum's moderators, and we'll talk about your concern.

Daniel<<

If this is acceptable, I'll probably do this in future if I have a query re a specific moderator decision and I want to draw it to the attention of more than just that mod.

-Simon


----------



## Plane Sailing (Aug 19, 2005)

In the first instance it is still most polite to email the mod in question first. That will lead to discussion anyway. (See Morrus' post above)


----------



## Cyberzombie (Aug 20, 2005)

So, given the policies outlined above, are y'all going to go after the world-infamous, "Well, that's not in the RAW, but it would make a nice house rule" passive-aggressive attacks in the Rules forum?  Granted, I am highly amused by them, and collect people for my Ignore list that way, but it might make the place more useful if something was done about it.


----------



## Darkness (Aug 20, 2005)

S'mon said:
			
		

> Re contacting mods via email, that would be via the list of emails maintained on this Meta forum?



 You can also click someone's name to open a drop-down menu, which contains an e-mail option (assuming the user has enabled it, which mods have).


			
				Cyberzombie said:
			
		

> So, given the policies outlined above, are y'all going to go after the world-infamous, "Well, that's not in the RAW, but it would make a nice house rule" passive-aggressive attacks in the Rules forum?  Granted, I am highly amused by them, and collect people for my Ignore list that way, but it might make the place more useful if something was done about it.



 Heh. Haven't seen that one in a while... Anyway, in general that's attacking the argument, not the poster, so it's probably a question of what else is being said. As always, if something seems inappropriate, feel free to report it and we'll take a look.


----------



## Cyberzombie (Aug 20, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> Heh. Haven't seen that one in a while... Anyway, in general that's attacking the argument, not the poster, so it's probably a question of what else is being said. As always, if something seems inappropriate, feel free to report it and we'll take a look.




Hmm.  Well, if that's been cleaned up, all the better.


----------



## Arbiter of Wyrms (Aug 20, 2005)

reveal said:
			
		

> Your just mad you're grammar and speeling aren't as good as mine.



I really, really want to resist the urge to collect apparently random quotes for my signature, but as a linguist and a teacher of English, I can't pass this one up.







			
				Cyerzombie said:
			
		

> So, given the policies outlined above, are y'all going to go after the world-infamous, "Well, that's not in the RAW, but it would make a nice house rule" passive-aggressive attacks in the Rules forum? Granted, I am highly amused by them, and collect people for my Ignore list that way, but it might make the place more useful if something was done about it.



 I don't think I've seen that. Perhaps I have, and just didn't notice it, or didn't recognize it for passive aggression.  BTW, Cyberzombie, I really like the anime pic in your sig.  What is that from?


----------



## Berandor (Aug 20, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> I really, really want to resist the urge to collect apparently random quotes for my signature, but as a linguist and a teacher of English, I can't pass this one up.



But he misspelled grammer!


----------



## Darkness (Aug 20, 2005)

Arbiter of Wyrms said:
			
		

> BTW, Cyberzombie, I really like the anime pic in your sig.  What is that from?



 I believe that's Death from Neil Gaiman's "Sandman."


----------



## Cyberzombie (Aug 21, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> I believe that's Death from Neil Gaiman's "Sandman."



 Specifically as done by Jill Thompson in kawaii manga stylez.  

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_6/102-2972616-6629734?v=glance&s=books
http://www.thexaxis.com/misc/death.htm


----------

