# how to hit on girls without being creepy?



## Hida Bukkorosu

advice please.  how does one go about approaching girls, lets say, for example, on campus, without coming across as "creepy"?


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## francisca

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> advice please.  how does one go about approaching girls, lets say, for example, on campus, without coming across as "creepy"?



Start by telling them that you love D&D and you get your love advice from an RPG oriented message board.


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## Crothian

first of all, don't look creepy.  second, have confidence; it is really easy to tell when someone doesn't have it.  Be casual and yourself.  don't over persue; I know sometimes it can seem romantic to chase a girl that first says no and then win her heart...but lots of times a no is actually a no.  

do you have any female friends?  female friends are great for helping you out in these areas.


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## Captain Loincloth

Get a dog   Dogs instantly decreepify men.  Don't ask me why,  I don't know.  But somehow women find men who have dogs much less creepy than men without dogs.


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## Darrin Drader

First of all, you need to know what creepy is. In my book, creepy is when you lack confidence, hold a crush forever, and then continue to pursue a girl after she's said no. Creepy means writing lengthy poetry to the object of your desires, rearranging your schedule so that you can "accidentally" spend time waiting for the bus to show up everyday, or intentionally taking the same classes so that you can be near her. Creepy is trying to guilt her into seeing you. Nothing is creepier than stalking. That's the crap you don't want to do.

As mentioned above, you need to have confidence. If you're a shy introverted person, then you need to force yourself out of your comfort zone. You need to go out of your way to meet people, make friends, attend parties, and otherwise be sociable. In addition to simply getting out, you have to make conversation. You can talk to girls about a lot of the same things you talk to guys about, but look for cues that she may not be interested in what you're talking about and be prepared to talk about another subject.

Dress nice and look nice. You probably aren't going to impress too many people with the untrimmed hair, wire rimmed glasses, and your tie dyed shirt with the fire breathing dragon on it. If you don't already look nice, or if you're trying to be too alternative or grungy, you may experience some resistance. One thing that worked for me in college was to find someone with a similar style or runs in a similar crowd who is successful with the opposite sex, and then copy their style. Sure, your individuality may suffer, but they may be onto something that works.

Flirt. This one's pretty big since body language relays how secure you are. If you want someone else to like you, you have to be comfortable with yourself. Before you say a word, make eye contact and smile. If she maintains eye contact, go say hi. When you do start talking, don't be afraid to ask personal questions, like whether or not she has an SO, and what she's into so that you can find some common interests. If you don't have much experience with girls, admit to it. There's a lot of girls who like a guy who doesn't have a lot of experience. 

Most importantly, if things are going well, close the deal. Ask her out. It doesn't have to be an actual romantic date per se, but you should make it clear that you are interested and ask to meet her for something. If she says no by making an excuse, she's not interested, so go find a prettier girl to hit on. You will go home alone more often than not, so expect rejection. Look forward to it, in fact, because every time you get rejected, you're one attempt closer to getting a girl.

Once you have a girl, don't be afraid to ditch her when things don't work out.  Do not hang on to her like your life depends on it. It doesn't, and you'll probably be happier in the long run with someone else.


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## BOZ

hmm... hitting on girls without being creepy?  that one took awhile for me.  

here's my best advice.  find yourself a loose, large social circle that includes men and women (or boys and girls, depending on how old you are).  that's how i met the first girl i asked out who i didn't creep out.  make friends - and i do mean _friends_ with some of the girls in the social circle.  if they are even halfway empathetic, they will try to help you, and maybe one of their friends will be a good match for you.

but here's the real thing - don't try _too_ hard.  if something doesn't evolve naturally out of first casual, and eventually more intimate conversation, as well as spending time together both going out and staying in, then you simply cannot force it to happen.

there you go!  hope that helps.  

Edit: PS - you say "on campus" so i assume you're in college?  well, more likely than not it should be all to easy to find cliques and social groups to hang out with.  it's just a matter of finding the one you're comfortable with.  maybe you already have your D&D group or some other group of social misfits - well, unless that group includes a few available girls that you are attracted to, you'll need to go looking for another group to "belong" to when looking for dates.    shop around!


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## mythago

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Flirt. This one's pretty big since body language relays how secure you are. If you want someone else to like you, you have to be comfortable with yourself. Before you say a word, make eye contact and smile. If she maintains eye contact, go say hi. When you do start talking, don't be afraid to ask personal questions, like whether or not she has an SO, and what she's into so that you can find some common interests.



 Er, asking somebody you've just met personal questions, especially ones that telegraph you're about to ask her out ("do you have a boyfriend?") is actually creepy.

 Non-creepiness suggestions:

 Make sure you're not approaching her in a way that is rude or threatening. Realize that "rude, threatening" may not fit your definition. (I have had guys do things like block my path so they could talk to me for a minute. I don't believe *they* thought they were creepy.)

 Introduce yourself first. Don't demand she tell you her name and personal information. She doesn't know you, remember?

 Make the offer of a first date low-key, friendly, low-stress, and a situation where you can actually talk to each other: going out to lunch or coffee beats dinner and a movie. And yes, you pay for this date. You did the asking, right?

 Eye level is at her eyes.

 If she says no, thank her and drop the issue. You don't want to be a stalker, and you also don't want to go out with the kind of person who thinks you should be a mind-reader.

 Hope this helps.


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## elforcelf

Nope,we are nerds.  Hell Goth girls might demand creepy.  elforcelf.


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## Blue_Kryptonite

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> Creepy means writing lengthy poetry to the object of your desires, rearranging your schedule so that you can "accidentally" spend time waiting for the bus to show up everyday, or intentionally taking the same classes so that you can be near her.




I've been married to the girl I did that to for the past 20 years now.


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## Darrin Drader

mythago said:
			
		

> Er, asking somebody you've just met personal questions, especially ones that telegraph you're about to ask her out ("do you have a boyfriend?") is actually creepy.



I'm going to have to disagree. How in the world are you supposed to know if you're wasting your time if you don't ask? There's nothing wrong with being somewhat forward, as long as you're cool about it. Don't make that the first topic of coversation, but there's no reason it shouldn't come up.


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## Stone Angel

It goes without saying that your appearance and hygeine should be at it's pinnacle when talking to a "prospect" unless you have the whole sweaty jock thing goin for you, and even then you need to keep your distance.

First of all be natural or at least as natural as you can be. It is normal to be nervous at first just don't be a spazz, chicks love to hear themselves speak for the most part, or at least "be listened to" but be careful here you don't want to be the strictly "listening friend"

Never ever ever seem look desperate, if you are going to be crushed by her un-affection back off for a while and re-evaluate the situation.

Never ever drool or stare or at least be caught staring


Now we have covered some of the things on not what to do lets give some advice.

Start small the little battles are what counts.It also helps if you have something in common, i.e if you are on campus and you have the same class, that is not a ice breaker, complaining about a recent assignment or the prof or TA is a good situation. Though never ask to copy notes or study together unless you have you know them a little.

Fleeting compliments are nice but ones that don't objectify their body, such as "Hey nice shirt I like Linkin Park too, ever seen them live? Yeah they rock." Then end it there walk away chalk one up for the home team.

Then next time you will have a little background you always have a safe base to return too. For instance if the conversation doesn't quite take flight you can ask her what other kinds of music she enjoys. 

Well I hope this helps but the number one secret to girls and college= Alcohol, it does wonders for tearing down inhibitions and defensive walls including your own.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Jesus_marley

First of all, DO NOT "hit on" a girl.... that in itself is creepy.

Be sure you are presentable (clean, don't smell wierd, brush your teeth).

Approach the person and say something like this...

"Excuse me. Sorry for disturbing you but I couldn't help but notice you there from across the (room, field, street etc.).My name is ________ and if it isn't too forward of me, I was wondering if you would be interested in having lunch (or coffee, etc.) with me?

If she says yes... Great!

If no, then be polite and move on.


Don't worry about asking about a boyfriend or SO. If she has one, she'll tell you up front... At least hope she does anyway  

Hope this helps.


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## jaerdaph

If you're hitting on girls and over 18 I'm calling the authorities...


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## Mystery Man

If judging by the last few responses to this thread is indicitive of how our youth today and how they go about wooing the opposite sex, I fear for the advancement of our species.


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## Jesus_marley

The problem with meeting and dating the opposite sex nowadays is that men are restricted by so many laws as to what they can and cannot say and do. 

Courting is now called stalking.
Wooing is harassment.
What once was considered charming is now called creepy.

You practically need a team of lawyers behind you when you approach somebody you are interested in. There is such an atmosphere of distrust and wariness that pervades the entire dating experience that neutral meetings in neutral venues are the only safe way to go without being arrested.

Am I bitter?  Nah!


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## mythago

Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> How in the world are you supposed to know if you're wasting your time if you don't ask?



 From the point of view of asking another person out, it's irrelevant. What you want to know is whether they'll go out with you. "I don't have a boyfriend, but I'd rather eat glass than go out with you for coffee" has pretty much the same end result, from the Man in a Hurry's point of view, as "I have a boyfriend," right?

 If you don't want to waste time, introduce yourself, explain why you're talking to them ("I sit behind you in Comp Lit and I really liked what you had to say about Derrida"), and ask them out. Simple, no creepiness, no waste of time. 

 (Plus, it allows both you and her a polite out. "I'm sorry, I'd love to go out with you but I'm seeing sometime" lets her turn you down without it being personal, even if it's not true.)

 Jesus_marley, y'know, if you go looking for something you will probably find it. If you approach any potential love interest as though she's got her mobile phone ready to speed-dial 911 to report a potential stalker, then the nice, non-paranoid women are going to give you a wide berth. Nobody finds a chip on the shoulder attractive.


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## jaerdaph

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> Courting is now called stalking.
> Wooing is harassment.
> What once was considered charming is now called creepy.




Sadly, it probably depends on the package you come in and the perspective target - good looks or money (or better yet both), you're considered the former. What ever happened to women falling for the Woody Allen screen persona type?

As an aside, my son calls them "womens" (yes, a double plural) now, so "girls" is apparently out.


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## mythago

"Target"? I think I see the problem right there.

 Woody Allen is rich. So is Henry Kissinger. I don't think either of them feels stalking is charming.


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## jaerdaph

mythago said:
			
		

> "Target"? I think I see the problem right there.
> 
> Woody Allen is rich. So is Henry Kissinger. I don't think either of them feels stalking is charming.




Yes, but Woody Allen's *screen persona *- the characters he plays - weren't rich. 

And, like beauty, all these things are in the eye of the beholder. 

If someone tells you they are uncomfortable, or if you pick up that they aren't comfortable but not saying it aloud, you should *always* be respectful of that person and back off.


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## mythago

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> And, like beauty, all these things are in the eye of the beholder.



 Well sure.  Isn't that the way it should be? 

 (For those concerned about lawyers, in real life there are legal standards about reasonable behavior. You are not going to get sued for harassment because you asked a fellow student out for coffee.)


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## Nifft

Complement her. A decent bare-bones hit-on is "Hi. I like your shoes."

Leave things unsaid... if there's an innuendo that may prompt a bad pun, don't make the pun, instead make eye contact and smile or chuckle. If she gets it, great, if not, don't worry.

Look for ways to keep the conversation going, not ways to make yourself look smart. Comment, don't lecture.

The above is just some very basic advice.

 -- N


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## jaerdaph

mythago said:
			
		

> Well sure.  Isn't that the way it should be?




Yes.


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## der_kluge

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-1141849-3522530?v=glance&s=books

Seriously.


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## Jesus_marley

mythago said:
			
		

> Jesus_marley, y'know, if you go looking for something you will probably find it. If you approach any potential love interest as though she's got her mobile phone ready to speed-dial 911 to report a potential stalker, then the nice, non-paranoid women are going to give you a wide berth. Nobody finds a chip on the shoulder attractive.




It has nothing to do with a chip. I don't have one honestly. I'm merely pointing out the inherent dangers of approaching the opposite sex. Granted, the majority of girls (and guys) are rational and sane. But there are a few (on both sides) that have really managed to screw things up for the rest of us.

Just speaking from personal experience I once asked a girl for directions to the lecture hall on campus. I swear to God she was ready to bolt like a rabbit and I was 15 feet away from her. You could literally see the fear.  Crazy.


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## jaerdaph

What my dad told me. Be like this guy:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-6536789-9241632?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Edit: Ooops - linked the wrong book, probably written by some Boston fan...


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## mythago

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> Just speaking from personal experience I once asked a girl for directions to the lecture hall on campus. I swear to God she was ready to bolt like a rabbit and I was 15 feet away from her. You could literally see the fear. Crazy.



 Do you think that there might have been some reason, having nothing to do with you personally or with some terrible shift from 'charming' to 'creepy' in social perceptions, that she might have been that scared? Say, she might have been a victim of one of the not-so-nice few and is perhaps not entirely recovered?

 When you go on about how wooing is now harassment and you practically need a lawyer to ask a girl out and so on, you contribute to the problem. Exaggerating and being bitter about "the few" does not persuade the normal, non-paranoid many that you're one of the good guys, y'know?


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## Jesus_marley

mythago said:
			
		

> Do you think that there might have been some reason, having nothing to do with you personally or with some terrible shift from 'charming' to 'creepy' in social perceptions, that she might have been that scared? Say, she might have been a victim of one of the not-so-nice few and is perhaps not entirely recovered?




My view on this is simple....

There may very well have been a reason she behaved that way that had nothing to do with me. But I also feel that if I have done nothing wrong, then she has no business treating me like I did. I also know this is somewhat unrealistic and that people carry over bad experiences, but it still really bothers me.



			
				mythago said:
			
		

> When you go on about how wooing is now harassment and you practically need a lawyer to ask a girl out and so on, you contribute to the problem. Exaggerating and being bitter about "the few" does not persuade the normal, non-paranoid many that you're one of the good guys, y'know?




As ridiculous as I think these laws are, they still have never stopped me from approaching someone I like. I do believe some of the laws in place are rather absurd and draconian but I don't understand how that makes me "bitter". I just know that while they are there, one must merely be careful to avoid "the Few".


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## monkeyshines

jaerdaph said:
			
		

> Yes, but Woody Allen's *screen persona *- the characters he plays - weren't rich.




They also weren't real people, and neither were the women characters.   

Seriously, you guys should be listening to mythago.  There is much wisdom there.


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## Torm

Best advice: Potato placed in the front of your pants. That's all I'm sayin'.  

(j/k - all the good advice I'd give looks like it has been given)


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## Nellisir

Most of the advice laready given is sound. Be casual. Be yourself, in a publicly appropriate sort of way (don't bring up D&D unless she's in your group -- test similar interests with LotR or Harry Potter). Be interested IN HER. Expect a no; you'll be that much happier when she says yes. Practice flirting -- not hitting on women, just being friendly with the opposite sex (checkout counters, banks, etc -- smile, make eye contact, ask how things are, comment on the weather -- too hot, cold, windy, sunny, snowy...it's a) a shame how they're trapped inside; b) great that they get to be inside...there's a REASON why people always talk about the weather. If you don't know what the weather is, get out more).

Don't focus on just one person. Grab the bull by the horns. Ask three girls out* (though I know casual dating was a lost art on my old campus).

For god's sake, brush your teeth and take a shower. Shaving is optional these days.

Eye contact is a must, as is smiling (not just baring your teeth -- smiling). Remember to walk away.

Don't pressure. A no is a no is a no. If she says "maybe later", or "not now", don't push. And wait longer than an hour (more like a week or two).

Practice talking without stammering (I admit to still working on this one).

She probably can't read your mind.

Cheers
Nell.
* Do NOT do this when they are all standing around together.


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## dren

Hitting on someone is the first problem. Outside of a bar setting, you shouldn't be hitting on someone you would like to meet or date. 

Talk to her, be yourself, be nice but too sweet, be confident but not a jerk. Ask others who may know her, what she's like. Look for someone you find attractive and someone even if you never had a chance in the world to sleep with, you would still like to have a relationship with. You have to accept that just because YOU want a relationship, she may not, and you have to let it go.  

Lastly, have patience. Eventually you'll find someone who is open to a relationship with you.


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## MerakSpielman

Cultivate female friends. Get to know them.

At some point, romance will blossom.

It worked for me. Married for 8 years now.

If all you're looking for is some non-serious "female companionship" I'm afraid I can't help you.


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## mythago

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> I do believe some of the laws in place are rather absurd and draconian but I don't understand how that makes me "bitter".



 Which laws, and in what was are they absurd and draconian? (And surely something makes you bitter, as you put "Am I bitter? Nah!" at the end of your post....)

 Merak makes an excellent point. You make friends, whether or not you date them, and then you have more friends at the very worst. Plus, let's face it, your female friends *themselves* have female friends, and you never know when one of them will say "Hey, I have this great guy friend you should meet..."


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis

If you're on a college campus, there are plenty of opportunities to meet and woo women - take it from me, I'm a 20 year old female college student.

Do sweet things:
-Ask where she's going to class - offer to carry her books.  (Oh, I LOVE this one!)
-Open doors for women, always.  Whether your walking into the student union or class, always check behind you to see if there is someone you can hold the door open for.
-Find mundane things to compliment - clothes, makeup, or the color of her eyes.
-Invite her to do things with a large group - movies, ice skating, etc.  "I'm going to the movies with some freinds on Thursday, do you want to come with us?"
     -While at those big things, find a moment to pull her aside and ask if she would like to go on a date sometime - just the two of you.
-Do find ways to run into your crush - like has been said before.  Join activities that she is in, figure out where she spends her free time.  "Hey!  It's good to see you!"
-Find out if she uses an IM service and talk to her there.  It's easy and low-pressure (that's how my husband and I got our start )

That's what I can think of off the top of my head...

--LizzyB aka Queen_Dopplepopolis


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## mythago

_Join activities that she is in, figure out where she spends her free time.  "Hey!  It's good to see you!"_

 Don't join those activities unless you enjoy them. Some women will think it romantic that you joined a knitting class just to be near them. Others will be upset that they can't even go to their knitting class without that creep who won't take 'no' for an answer hanging around making goo-goo eyes :/


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## jaerdaph

Okay, I'm out. What was once a simple question - How do I get her to like me? - has now been thoroughly scrutinized, deconstructed, pseudo-intellectualized, agenda-tized, misinterpreted, misconstrued ad infinitum, ad nauseum, etc.... You don't need me here anymore to help. 

Here's the scoop, Hida, same thing I tell my son: Just *be yourself*, *be your best * and *be respectful*.

Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?

Peace, gang


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## BigFreekinGoblinoid

I can't believe you are asking for that type of advice HERE. Do you turn to Maxim magazine for roleplaying tips?


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## jaerdaph

BigFreekinGoblinoid said:
			
		

> I can't believe you are asking for that type of advice HERE. Do you turn to Maxim magazine for roleplaying tips?




ROTFLMAO!!!


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## BSF

Wow, there are a lot of responses here.  I am not sure I want to read them all so I will just offer the same advice that I offer most of my younger guy friends.

Remember that girls are, first and foremost, people.  Treat them like people.  Communicate with them.  That means speaking *and* listening.  Be respectful and polite and be yourself.  

A date is a way to find out a little more about this person, and to let them know a little more about you.  If a girl doesn't like who you are, let it rest.  Even if you thought and hoped that this was the person of your dreams, you just found out that the two of you are not as compatible as you would have liked to have thought.  No big deal.


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## Angcuru

Simply put:  Be yourself.

If you act contrary to your normal persona, you will only cause problems for yourself and those around you.  Works for me.  My only obstacle is that I'm constantly running into legitimate "already in a relationship" barriers.  But there's not much one can do about that.

Other than that, there are a few things that are a must.

Smile, be courteous and respectful, and practice good hygiene.  Without this, you won't get anywhere.


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## DungeonmasterCal

I just spent nearly an hour composing a huge manifesto on this, but let me just say a few things.

Be a nice guy.  Be a clean guy.  Brush your teeth, for pity's sake and wear freshly laundered clothes.  Being a very sincere and nice guy goes a along way, as does that first impression she gets when she sees you.

Don't be a jerk.  If she turns you down, smile and say "Thanks.  Have a great day".  And be sincere when you say it.  If you do get a date, don't be a jerk then, either.  On the date, don't criticize her interests or menu choices.  She's an individual, and she's entitled to her own opinions.  Make the date a casual one, such as coffee or lunch between classes.  

And if you have female friends, talk to them.  Find out what creeps them out.  Find out how they like to be approached the first time.  The BEST advice I've ever gotten for asking girls out came from other girls.  

Queen_Dopplepopolis and Mythago have some great tips here, and those same tips worked for me when I was single.  And if I were single today, I'd sure as heck not be using Maxim magazine for advice, either.  Trends and fashions advocated in the media are transitory; who you really are is forever.

Good luck!


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## Hand of Evil

A smile and a hello goes a long way.  
Be yourself, if you have to fake who you are you will look creepy.  
Talk to her, not at her.
She is not the only one, if she is not interested move on.


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## Angcuru

It's true the best dating/flirting/female attraction advice comes from women.  That's where I get mine, and it's more or less what I already listed.  Also, most if not LOTS of girls ]_hate[/i guys with the 'player' persona._


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## Queen_Dopplepopolis

mythago said:
			
		

> _Join activities that she is in, figure out where she spends her free time.  "Hey!  It's good to see you!"_
> 
> Don't join those activities unless you enjoy them. Some women will think it romantic that you joined a knitting class just to be near them. Others will be upset that they can't even go to their knitting class without that creep who won't take 'no' for an answer hanging around making goo-goo eyes :/



 Indeed, I agree completely... should have stated it myself.  But, because I didn't - I'll back it up with a solid "yep!"


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## Darrin Drader

dren said:
			
		

> Hitting on someone is the first problem. Outside of a bar setting, you shouldn't be hitting on someone you would like to meet or date.



Very true, although it is acceptable to hit on someone at parties, which are really just  private bars anyway. Or maybe not, it kind of depends on what school you're at and how well they enforce their alcohol policy. I keep hearing that WSU is not the typical college experience. One year when Playboy magazine was rating the top campuses for partying, they refused to rate WSU because they "don't rate professionals".

Anyway, when not in that type of situation, brief eye contact and a smile is the best way to convey interest without going overboard. There was one time when I was dating where I saw a girl at the campus book store. I made eye contact, smiled, and opened the door for her on the way out. Apparently that left some sort of impression because a week later she followed me into a McDonalds and started up a conversation with me while we were in line to order. That led to a date where we found out that we didn't have much in common and decided not to pursue it any further.


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## Nifft

Angcuru said:
			
		

> Simply put:  Be yourself.




This is the worst advice ever for someone who doesn't like and/or respect who he currently is.

The correct advice is:

1) Become someone you like being.
2) Be yourself.

Then it will all work out. But you shouldn't go around being someone who you're not happy with.

Whatever it takes to make yourself into someone you like, do it. Make more money, work out, learn to paint or play sax, stuff a potato in your shorts -- whatever it takes, do it. No, it's not easy.

 -- N


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## Xath

As a girl, I can say one of the creepiest things is when a guy puts up a false front.  Being yourself is important for several reasons. You should never change who you are for someone else, especially just to attract notice.  You won't be able to hold up that front forever, and once she sees who you really are, she'll feel like she doesn't know you and can't trust you.

Also, unless you're the world's best lier, you'll send off a wierd vibe that's often extremely creepy.  I can't really explain it, but girls seem to have a 6th sense for that sort of thing...

Be yourself.  That's all I can say.  It's better to wait longer to find someone who will love you for who you are than to change for someone who will love you for who you aren't.


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## mythago

Angcuru said:
			
		

> and practice good hygiene



 Good advice to gamers everywhere, dating-advice or no


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## Humanophile

I didn't think to mention hygine, but it's a good point.  Presentability is key.  You don't have to be dressed to the nines, but a shower and clean clothes are non-negotiable.  But I really, really hope that you don't need remedial training like this.

Now, I can't tell you how to "hit on" girls well; that seems to require an alpha-male personna that either you have or you don't.  And ignore tips that micromanage; if I took the time to double-check what I was doing while I was talking to a girl, I wouldn't have time for the listen-and-respond that makes it a conversation.  But if you want to know how to talk to girls more easily, here's what to do.

Start simple.  Have a friend in a support role (if you have no friends present, chose some random person to fill the spot).  Find some girl who looks bored and open.  Walk right up and say "Hi.  My friend over there is making me learn how to talk to girls." or something like that.  Something to break the ice, excuse shyness on your part, and (hopefully) make her feel more comfortable that this isn't some hit-on.  (Make sure to do this in some public place, but at the same time try to find someone who's not in the middle of a crowd.)

If she's free (and if she's busy, she'll likely tell you), talk from there.  Ask her things, comment on whatever comes to mind, just the same as if you were meeting anyone else.  This is all about practice and confidence building.

And don't worry about repeat performances.  Don't ask her if you can get ahold of her later.  (Unless you and her really hit it off, in which case ask her when one of you has to leave.)  But if things go well, you might have an opening to chatting with her again when you run into her (if you don't get a phone #/IM name).  And even if they're mediocre, you passed some time, got in some practice, and helped build your confidence for next time you want to chat someone up.


----------



## msd

Humanophile said:
			
		

> Find some girl who looks bored and open.  Walk right up and say "Hi.  My friend over there is making me learn how to talk to girls." or something like that.




Yeah...this is sure to put her at ease with you...ROTFLMAO


----------



## mythago

Doonesbury had a running series on that early on, where Mike Doonesbury hires Sam Smooth to give him tips on meeting women, and inevitably it goes like this:

 "Hi, I'm Mike Doonesbury and--"

 "Who's your friend over there? The cute one?"


----------



## Afrodyte

One thing I appreciate is a man who is honest about his wants and intentions.  Putting up pretenses about just wanting to be friends or looking for a serious relationship when you only want a good time is generally a turn-off.  Likewise, if you are really looking for a long-term relationship, don't pretend like that's not what you want.  In my experience, men who are not honest about what they really want come across as weak and/or dishonest, and I find neither one of these traits attractive.  Just be honest with her and (more importantly) yourself.  Don't be pushy or invasive about it, but don't hide it either.  If you both are looking for the same thing, and she's interested in you, great!  Be grateful for your good luck.  If she's not interested in you in the same way you are in her, ask yourself (and be honest) if you can live with just being friends.  Don't feel bad if the answer is no, but if you never want to be friends (and only friends) with any other women, you might want to start asking yourself a few questions.

Of course, this is what has applied in my experience, so YMMV.


----------



## Kid Charlemagne

monkeyshines said:
			
		

> Seriously, you guys should be listening to mythago.  There is much wisdom there.




Yeah, but she also runs a mean Cthulhu campaign from what I've heard, so just keep that in mind...


----------



## Uzumaki

mythago said:
			
		

> Good advice to gamers everywhere, dating-advice or no



Good advice to everyone, regardless of their hobbies.

On that note, hang out with people who have good hygeine, too. YOu can smell like fresh daisies in the morning, but if you spend a few hours in the company with people who marinate in their own body oils day after day, you WILL absorb their funk.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Ok, here is my advice, and I will tell you that every time this subject comes up, I ost this advice, and it always gets derided.

Don't listen to the derision.

The advice you have been given thus far in the thread will put you directly on the path to being the girl's "Good Friend". That means--in essence--no sex. IF that's what you are looking for, then great, go for it. 

But if not, the following advice should serve you well, though it stands in stark contrast to just about everything that has been said in this thread thus far.

Ok, here we go.

*Be kind of a jerk*. Not a total jerk, just more arrogant than you would normally be. I have no idea why women go for this, but they do. In droves. 

I and most of my friends have done "just fine" to "very well" being arrogant jerks.

In highschool I tried to go with the plan my mother had for me: "Be nice, be respectful, think of the girl as a person first". It sounded like gold! I mean who wouldn't like politeness and respect? Right?

I got exactly nowhere. Nothing. Zip. The girls absolutely could not have cared less.

Then my friend Cary, who did _very_ well with women, took me aside while I was complaining one day and told me the truth...

"Treat them bad. Just kind of be arrogant, don't be afraid to belittle them some etc.."

I told him he was crazy.

He said to try it on a girl I liked (Michelle) at a party this weekend. If it didn't work, he'd give me 50 dollars...if it did I owed him 50.

I paid him 50 bucks monday morning. Michelle and I dated for almost year.

The pattern hasn't really changed all that much. I'm not the total jerk that I was in highschool, because I don't need to be anymore.

I now make pretty good money, which picks up a lot of the slack

Your mileage may vary


----------



## monkeyshines

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> *Be kind of a jerk*. Not a total jerk, just more arrogant than you would normally be. I have no idea why women go for this, but they do. In droves.




Well, confidence - the kind of confidence that says, "I might not really care what you think and I'm not going to be your lapdog" - can be very attractive.  But if it's just an act, like any other act it will come out in the wash later... and that's how "you're not the man I fell in love with" talk starts.  



			
				Humanophile said:
			
		

> Start simple. Have a friend in a support role (if you have no friends present, chose some random person to fill the spot). Find some girl who looks bored and open. Walk right up and say "Hi. My friend over there is making me learn how to talk to girls." or something like that. Something to break the ice, excuse shyness on your part, and (hopefully) make her feel more comfortable that this isn't some hit-on. (Make sure to do this in some public place, but at the same time try to find someone who's not in the middle of a crowd.)




Sorry, no offense, but that has "line" written all over it.


----------



## Darrin Drader

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Ok, here is my advice, and I will tell you that every time this subject comes up, I ost this advice, and it always gets derided.
> 
> *Be kind of a jerk*. Not a total jerk, just more arrogant than you would normally be. I have no idea why women go for this, but they do. In droves.



Yep, you should listen to Billy. It is the truth, but you have to be comfortable doing it. I went out one night with the stated intention of saying something to a girl that is so over the top I'd get slapped. My friends and I went out to a couple of clubs, did some dancing, talked to a girl, made the offending comment and achieved my objective. Smack! Guess who ended up taking her home that night.


----------



## Angcuru

Well, different methods work for different people, as well as _attract_ different people.  Something to keep in mind.


----------



## tarchon

Another approach is not to figure out how not to act creepy, but to find a girl who likes creeps.

My piece of advice: ignore everything attractive guys tell you about getting women, because it's all a rationaliation for the fact that women go out with them because they're attractive. 
If you find an ugly guy gets a lot of girls, then bend an ear.


----------



## Nifft

tarchon said:
			
		

> If you find an ugly guy gets a lot of girls, then bend an ear.




I'm not seeing any ears here...







 -- N


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

on eye contact:  how long are you supposed to hold eye contact?  i know that "staring" can be considered creepy, but i think i overcompensate for that by hardly ever making eye contact...

is there a precise number of seconds you're supposed to hold eye contact for?

as for what i want out of a relationship i have a matrix



		Code:
	

          |     cute*     |  non-cute*
-----------------------------------------
   geek   | potential LTR | just friends
-----------------------------------------
 non-geek | physical fun  | no interest


*cute meaning appealing to my own personal sense of what attracts me

i don't think i can pull off the confidence thing, i have no ability to fake emotions.  it was a lot of trouble when i worked at the movie theatre i couldn't force myself to "smile" when i did not feel happy.

alcohol isn't an option for a couple reasons:  1.) gout, and 2.) i don't trust myself to not do something that would hurt myself or others under the influence.  3.) i would become addicted, i have an addictive personality and little to no "willpower".

my major goal right now is to have my first kiss before i graduate.  i'm open to the idea of love if i meet the right person or people but am not opposed to a purely physical relationship either.  i also don't want to decieve girls as to where they stand in the matrix either, i don't feel it's right to make a girl think you want an LTR when she's in the "physical fun" category.

in a perfect world, i'd be able to go up to girls and say "hi.  you're hot.  wanna make out?" in a simple and direct way, and even if the girl was not interested in making out with me she would be flattered instead of offended and politely turn me down and i would politely move on and ask the next girl.

unfortunately, society frowns on this open honesty and prefers these silly convoluted dating rituals, and its so ingrained in the culture to the point where expressing interest is offensive to the point of being illegal unless it's done in a certain way. 

so i'm trying to figure out how to, well, approach girls with the intent of asking them out, without making them extremely uncomfortable, in a way in which i can get an honest acceptance or refusal, and in a way in which people won't look at me and say "call security there's some creepy guy harassing girls!".

one more question:  say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying...  how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted?  see a lot of times i'll be bored sitting around on campus, and i'll start reading a book or studying but wouldn't mind being interrupted by someone interested in talking to me particularily if it was a girl...  so my question is how do i differntiate the girls who are thinking like me in that regard from the ones who are seriously studying / engrossed in their reading and don't want to be bothered, so i know which ones i can safely try to "chat up"?


----------



## Brennin Magalus

Nifft said:
			
		

> Complement her. A decent bare-bones hit-on is "Hi. I like your shoes."




Compliment a girl on her shoes? You might as well ask her where she bought them and if they come in your size.


----------



## Xath

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Compliment a girl on her shoes? You might as well ask her where she bought them and if they come in your size.




The complement "nice shoes" has a following phrase that would offend Eric's Grandma.

However, in general, compliments are a good way to go.


----------



## Planesdragon

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> Courting is now called stalking.
> Wooing is harassment.
> What once was considered charming is now called creepy.



 There's one huge difference between stalking/harassment and wooing/courtship.  Namely, a gentleman seeking a woman's hand not only open declares their intent in as formal a manner as possible (in writing at the very least), but immediately ceases pursuit if the woman makes it clear she is not interested.

 The problem today is that the social system that built up over centuries to handle courtship and coupling as totally broken down, leaving the less-charismatic among us often left adrift and wondering what to do next.

 Getting back on topic: as a married geek of seven years as of _today_ (well, tonight: 1830 Eastern, 1/1/98), my suggestion to someone wondering how to initiate courtship is to NOT do so.  Don't look for a "woman" or a "girl."  Look for a friend first, and let the rest it fall into place.

 Remember: About 45% of the population could potentially be a date for you.  (The rest are either the wrong gender or disinterested.)  However, closer to 1% would actually be a friend of yours -- less, actually, since friendship is hard-limited by human cognitive ability.  I.e., if your college has 50,000 students, that's about 20,000 potential dates and probably closer to 20 potential friends.

 Oh, and btw:



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> The advice you have been given thus far in the thread will put you directly on the path to being the girl's "Good Friend". That means--in essence--no sex. IF that's what you are looking for, then great, go for it.



 The man's single.  (Otherwise he wouldn't -- er, _shouldn't_ -- still be looking.)

 Being polite and respectful to a woman is the path to getting not just a one-night stand (which being mean will get you plenty of), but being married -- which is a better deal in just about every way.

 The kernal of truth in what TB says, however, it something that's easy to ignore and forget to do if you're focused on being nice.  Be a man.  On a basic chemical level men are agressive and active while women are supportive and understanding, and while being able to cross the divide is a good thing (same goes for the ladies, as well), jumping to the other side wholesale will only convince the woman's reproductive chemistry to treat you like any other nonagressive, supporting and understanding person -- a friend, not a potential mate.

 (If you've been a geek all throughout high school and can't figure out how to be agressive, pick a sport or instrument that you like and would preferably give you a chance to perform.  If the college doesn't have anything, try looking for the local reinactment or medievalist groups and fencing clubs -- geek-girls tend to congregate at such activites, and there's no better mate for a geek-boy than a geek-girl.)


----------



## Humanophile

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> on eye contact:  how long are you supposed to hold eye contact?  i know that "staring" can be considered creepy, but i think i overcompensate for that by hardly ever making eye contact...
> 
> is there a precise number of seconds you're supposed to hold eye contact for?




See, this here is my problem with most forms of relationship advice.  If I were particularly arsed, I could program a computer to watch a girl and blink a little red light when you should break eye contact.  If you don't have that trick down, however, all you can do is practice.  You can't consciously keep track of all the necessary factors without coming off as really odd.



> my major goal right now is to have my first kiss before i graduate.  i'm open to the idea of love if i meet the right person or people but am not opposed to a purely physical relationship either.  i also don't want to decieve girls as to where they stand in the matrix either, i don't feel it's right to make a girl think you want an LTR when she's in the "physical fun" category.
> 
> in a perfect world, i'd be able to go up to girls and say "hi.  you're hot.  wanna make out?" in a simple and direct way, and even if the girl was not interested in making out with me she would be flattered instead of offended and politely turn me down and i would politely move on and ask the next girl.
> 
> unfortunately, society frowns on this open honesty and prefers these silly convoluted dating rituals, and its so ingrained in the culture to the point where expressing interest is offensive to the point of being illegal unless it's done in a certain way.
> 
> so i'm trying to figure out how to, well, approach girls with the intent of asking them out, without making them extremely uncomfortable, in a way in which i can get an honest acceptance or refusal, and in a way in which people won't look at me and say "call security there's some creepy guy harassing girls!".




Ahhhh.  I remember when I was where you are now.  But you have to learn how to crawl before you can walk.  Teflon Billy's right; my advice very likely won't get you laid.  What it will do is help you learn how to talk to girls more easily, so that the required steps to asking a girl out don't seem so daunting.  First things first, your goal is to learn how to initiate and hold a simple, pointless conversation.  Asking to get together later is only the cherry on top if things go well.  First kiss/sexual relation come later, and if you're like most of us, will end up in the "worst relationship" thread.  But try to master the basics before moving up to the advanced rules.

(You can try chatting up girls online too; there are plenty of sites where you can meet people.  Remember again that it's just practice/confidence building, and that there are a million and one things that matter to social interaction that don't come across well over the internet.)



> one more question:  say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying...  how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted?  see a lot of times i'll be bored sitting around on campus, and i'll start reading a book or studying but wouldn't mind being interrupted by someone interested in talking to me particularily if it was a girl...  so my question is how do i differntiate the girls who are thinking like me in that regard from the ones who are seriously studying / engrossed in their reading and don't want to be bothered, so i know which ones i can safely try to "chat up"?




As a rule of thumb, assume that she's open for approach.  If she's busy, she'll usually tell you.  (I used to motion at a nearby seat and ask "may I?"; the more smoothly you can work this in the better.)  If she says that she's busy or something else that's not a "yeah", move on.

(And it's sad that this needs to be said, but once shot down, find a personal activity to go back to or leave the area.  Going from girl to girl in one area = very creepy.  Try not to have any one area that you "over-hunt" either, for obvious reasons.)


----------



## Planesdragon

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> on eye contact:  how long are you supposed to hold eye contact?



 Hold? Just a few seconds, until you get to know her.  Even if she's got the most gorgeous eyes in the whole world, staring and not saying "Could I possibly have a name, to go with the most beautiful face I've ever seen" is a bad idea.  

 However, you should be making eye contact for the majority of a conversation.  *Eye contact is neither optional nor a one-time thing*.  Blink, nod your head, smile, and keep looking back at her face.  If you worry about being creepy, smile and look at something else for a second.)



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> as for what i want out of a relationship i have a matrix



 Please tear that up and never look at it again.  It won't do you any good, and having a tracking system of any kind will only make you despondent -- which will make you LESS likely to find feminine accompanyment, not more.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i don't think i can pull off the confidence thing, i have no ability to fake emotions. it was a lot of trouble when i worked at the movie theatre i couldn't force myself to "smile" when i did not feel happy.



 What, you mean a girl smiling at you isn't enough to make you feel happy?  If you get past "hello" and she responds, you have reason to be genuinely happy.  Don't try and fake it -- if a particular girl talking to you doesn't make you even a little bit happy, then it's not going to work at all.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> in a perfect world, i'd be able to go up to girls and say "hi. you're hot. wanna make out?" in a simple and direct way, and even if the girl was not interested in making out with me she would be flattered instead of offended and politely turn me down and i would politely move on and ask the next girl.
> 
> unfortunately, society frowns on this open honesty and prefers these silly convoluted dating rituals, and its so ingrained in the culture to the point where expressing interest is offensive to the point of being illegal unless it's done in a certain way.



It's not the honesty that's the question, it's the presumption you seem to have that sexual relations (which a kiss falls under) are possible without knowing the person.  Unless you're going to go the alcohol route, don't expect to find anyone that loose.

 As for a "simple and direct way" : Make your first line an introduction.  (i.e, "hey, what a beautiful sky."  "Is that _Shannara?"_ or "Can you believe these classes?")  If she responds, introduce yourself, and remember her name when she gives it in turn.  Once you have a name, you can either continue the conversation or suggest a more formal rendevous.  (Offering to buy her a drink -- hard, soft, or caffinated -- is a good opener.)    If she accepts, follow through on your plans.

 At the first formal encounter, ask for a method to contact her again.  She may give you a telephone number or e-mail address, or she may suggest another formal encounter.  (i.e., "how about you meet me here again tomorrow / next week?").  If the encounter is a "date", a romantic gesture is appropriate -- a kiss on the back of the hand is a good classic, but I think kissing on the lips is something that you should wait for the woman to initiate.

 Please don't think that this is complex.  The type of girl that would make out with someone they don't know is NOT someone that you want to be sharing bodily fluids with.  A name, a bit of conversation, and a romantic gesture *are* a very straighforward way to get a girl to make out with you.




			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> one more question: say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying... how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted?



 Try and interrupt her, gently.  If she ignores you or asks to be left alone, she doesn't want to be interrupted.

 Geek-girls tend to read, and like talking about what they're reading.  My best friend met my wife by interrupting her reading of a fantasy novel at a rev. war reenactment, and if he hadn't done that and later introduced us I'm not entirely sure how we'd have ended up together.


 Oh, and while I'm rambling:

_The art of courtship is finding out what the object of your affection desires in a mate, and shaping her perception of you into that ideal mold.  While some silver-tongued soundrels are able to do so by false words, the far more preferrable way is through wholeheartedly adopting or accentuating those aspects your Juliet wishes to see in her Romeo.  

 And never forget that in this blessed age, women can court and woo as well as men.  Do not assume that your Juliet does not desire to join your roleplaying game or watch a match of whatever your chosen spectator sport is alongside you.  Always ask and invite; if you and your Juliet find yourselves in marital bliss, adopting the customs and wishes of each other will be the most vital key to maintaining your love.
_


----------



## LightPhoenix

I'm gonna whole-heartedly agree with Teflon Billy as well.  Being a nice guy rarely gets you in the front door, unless you're looking for a friend.  Of course, neither does being a total jerk, that just gets you smacked, kneed, and labelled as a creep.  As with most things in life, a happy medium is the best approach.  Being a nice guy helps keep women though, which is an important distinction.

One important thing to understand about women, that I've found generally true, is that women are as self-conscious as men are, and generally more so, thanks to many modern societies.  Do not underestimate how effective a simple compliment can be... not just for women, but for everyone.  Even if she's got a boyfriend, chances are she'll appreciate the compliment.  As long as it's somewhat civil, that is.  Almost everyone likes to be told that they're good in some way.

It's important to make yourself noticed.  Complimenting a girl is a good way to do this, for the above reasons.  Keep in mind that women generally have their pick of single men, and that puts you in competition with every other single guy.  It's nothing personal, that's just the way it is.  Make yourself stand out, and you'll generally do better.

And for the record, I'm not saying dating is easy for women.  Believe it or not, they have it just as hard as we men do.  They just have an advantage in meeting people that we do not.  They also have to deal with creepy guys and potential rape, which is much worse.  Of course, we do now have to deal with sexual harassment charges, which can very easily be used against a man.  That's nothing compared to rape though.

Also understand that women tend to play games, especially at our age.  No, not all women do, and not all women mean ill by them.  It ties into insecurities, as well as (at least in the US) a societal pressure that tells them that they have to do these things.  A girl may show interest in you, and then go and flirt with another guy just to gauge how you'll act.  It sucks, it's dumb, but it's what happens.  Note to women: the easiest way to find out if a guy is interested in you is to ask.

Finally, some guys just have it easier.  Take care of yourself... stay fit, study hard, and be sure to use soap!   However, some guys will be hotter than you more than likely... don't give up because of that.  Play to your strengths, and work on your weaknesses.  For example, pretty much every girl I talk to comments on my pretty blue eyes, so I make sure to make eye contact.  However, I know I'm not overly sexy, so I instead work on being charming to make up for that.  Still, I make sure I look my best when I go out.

Despite all of this, understand two very important points.  First, women are complex, they're hard to understand for us men, and that you're never going to fully understand the whys of how they work.  Also, they're human, which means every single one is different.  What one may find charming another would find disgusting.  There's no accounting for taste, so don't be discouraged if a woman says that you're not her type.  One time I brought a girl I thought was into me out with a couple of my friends, and she proceded to hit on one of them all night.  And this after he told the grossest story he knew (and I will not repeat here, because Eric's Grandma would pass out in shock).

It's the sign of a good friend that he'll intentionally try to make himself less desirable because he knows you're into a girl.

Second, you will fail.  Unless you're Don Juan, you'll probably fail a lot more than you succeed.  This is quite okay.  In fact, it's good, because humility is just as important as haughtiness when hitting on women.  Sometimes thought it just will not work out.  Do not push it, because that's textbook creepy.

Don't be afraid of failure.  Make a fool of yourself, and don't take yourself so seriously.  Have a laugh with your friends over how you got slapped by the cute redhead, or almost started a fight when you realized her bf was nearby.  People (not just women) have more than five senses, and body language speaks a lot.  Your chances are much worse if you're a bumbling nervous idiot, or totally afraid of rejection, because they can tell, and it goes back to making an impression.  This doesn't apply just to dating, but to everything in life.

Oh, and try not to crap where you eat.  That is to say, generally avoid work romances.  It gets really awkward when things go south, especially if it's a bad break-up.  I ended up needing to quit a job because of one break-up.  Admittedly, it was a cruddy job (delivery for the campus late-night people), and I had another job, but the point still stands.

Another problem arises when a girl is with her friends.  I've found it actually works better to talk to her with her friends around.  For one thing, it affords a blanket of security for her, and she'll be more comfortable with the whole interaction.  For another, it's even more bold to go up to a group of women than a single one.  Finally, there's always the chance that another woman in that group will take an interest.  Just be sure to try and hit a lull in the conversation... don't interrupt rudely into the middle of a long conversation.  It's not always possible, and can be difficult to time, but do your best.

Finally, don't think you're gonna get laid straight off.  In fact, unless it's what you are looking for, it's generally a bad sign when that happens.  It means she's not looking for anything long-term, and probably means she's just using you for pleasure.  Which does tend to make a guy feel good, I'll admit.   Just don't think you're going to get anything more than a short, mostly-meaningless fling from it.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> one more question:  say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying...  how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted?  see a lot of times i'll be bored sitting around on campus, and i'll start reading a book or studying but wouldn't mind being interrupted by someone interested in talking to me particularily if it was a girl...  so my question is how do i differntiate the girls who are thinking like me in that regard from the ones who are seriously studying / engrossed in their reading and don't want to be bothered, so i know which ones i can safely try to "chat up"?




If she's just sitting around reading or studying, take a chance.  If she's in a place with lots of open seats, sit down near her.  Ask her what she is reading... find out if it is for school or pleasure... simply say something like, "Oh, I did not mean to interrupt your studying/reading... I have seen you around before/I remember you from class/some clever thing that shows you have a connection to her in some way without seeming overly zealous/ and just wanted to say 'hi'."

At this point, a bright smile and looking her in the eye is important.

"If you wouldn't mind giving me your number, I would love to call you sometime to chat when you're not busy (with school work)."**

And, from there it is her go.  However, I know that if I were approached by a nice, sweet, well-groomed man - even if he seemed a little shy - in that fashion I would be more than flattered and, if I were not married, I would totally give him my number and look forward to his call.

** This is all under the assumption that she is reading something that you have not read or are not interested in... if she happens to be reading something for pleasure and you have read something by the same author or something, that just adds to the stuff you can talk about.  "Oh, I have read that" or "I have read _______ by the same author" is an awesome way to start a conversation without sounding creepy at all.


----------



## Nellisir

Planesdragon said:
			
		

> Getting back on topic: as a married geek of seven years as of _today_ (well, tonight: 1830 Eastern, 1/1/98), my suggestion to someone wondering how to initiate courtship is to NOT do so. Don't look for a "woman" or a "girl." Look for a friend first, and let the rest it fall into place.



While I don't disagree with this, I wasn't friends with either my wife or my previous girlfriend.  The gf was an acquaintance (yes, from work), and my wife was just a cute single girl I asked out after chatting with for awhile.  Neither one has or had hobbies that neatly intersected with mine -- similar interests, but not similar expressions.  My wife is a jock - most of her weeknights are split between the gym, taking our dogs to canine agility, playing adult co-ed volleyball, and coaching volleyball at the local tech college.  I'm a weird mix of geek-carpenter -- my time is split between writing or internet surfing and working on my house.  But it works perfectly for us; she's logical and good with numbers, I'm intuitive and good with words.  I can walk up to strange people and get information, she can make small talk with friends when I'm bored to tears.

Cheers
Nell.


----------



## ASH

My only piece of advice:  Be yourself... If she thinks its creepy, she's not ment for you.  But keep in mind that when I say be yourself, i mean be yourself at your best...


----------



## The_Universe

After you deal with "making contact" and engaging the person in conversation, my best advice is as follows:

Ask questions.  People love to talk about themselves - and women are (its worthwhile to remember) people.  

The questions need not be invasive, as even trivial information can tell you a lot about a person. "What's your favorite movie?" "What's your favorite color? Food?" "What did you do in college? Involved in a lot of stuff, or just sorta 'hung out'?"

Now there's no need to be secretive about yourself.  Although with general questions like that, your new acquaintance will probably ask of her own accord about your own favorite X or past activity Y, there's no harm in volunteering. 

"So, what is your favorite movie?"
"Oh - Breakfast at Tiffany's. What about yours?"
"Hands down - Return of the Jedi! But why Breakfast at Tiffany's? Just a Hepburn-o-phile, or what?  Isn't George Peppard (Hannibal Smith from the A-team) in that?"

Questions are the essence of good conversation - be interested in her, but not obsessive.  It's fine to ask about a favorite jacket or shoes...but _not_ (at first) to ask what kind of underwear she likes to wear, if any.


----------



## mythago

Teflon Billy's advice is good--if you want a certain type of girl. You know, the one who will lead you to laugh bitterly every time jokes about women being from another planet come up.

The nice guys I know, the ones who are kind and respectful and treat the woman as a person, have to keep a written calendar to keep their dates organized. Seriously.

The way you end up as "just a friend" and "too nice" is when you think being nice means you can't be interested in anything more than holding hands. It's also when you put on a "nice" front and it's not really you.


----------



## mythago

Teflon Billy's advice is good--if you want a certain type of girl. You know, the one who will lead you to laugh bitterly every time jokes about women being from another planet come up.

The nice guys I know, the ones who are kind and respectful and treat the woman as a person, have to keep a written calendar to keep their dates organized. Seriously.

The way you end up as "just a friend" and "too nice" is when you think being nice means you can't be interested in anything more than holding hands. It's also when you put on a "nice" front and it's not really you.


----------



## Xath

Planesdragon said:
			
		

> However, you should be making eye contact for the majority of a conversation.  *Eye contact is neither optional nor a one-time thing*.  Blink, nod your head, smile, and keep looking back at her face.  If you worry about being creepy, smile and look at something else for a second.)




Note that *something else* should not involve lowering one's eyes to another part(s) of the body.



> As for a "simple and direct way" : Make your first line an introduction.  (i.e, "hey, what a beautiful sky."  "Is that _Shannara?"_ or "Can you believe these classes?")  If she responds, introduce yourself, and remember her name when she gives it in turn.  Once you have a name, you can either continue the conversation or suggest a more formal rendevous.  (Offering to buy her a drink -- hard, soft, or caffinated -- is a good opener.)    If she accepts, follow through on your plans.




"Is that Shannara?" is definitely not a way to strike up a conversation unless the girl in question happens to be reading one of the books from the series.  Most likely, she won't know what it is, and even if she does, what the heck are you talking about.



> At the first formal encounter, ask for a method to contact her again.  She may give you a telephone number or e-mail address, or she may suggest another formal encounter.  (i.e., "how about you meet me here again tomorrow / next week?").  If the encounter is a "date", a romantic gesture is appropriate -- a kiss on the back of the hand is a good classic, but I think kissing on the lips is something that you should wait for the woman to initiate.




No no no no no.  A kiss on the hand is one of the first ways to creepify yourself unless you have some sort of European accent.  A simple "Great.  I'll see you then." is ample response.  Especially if this is your first contact with this particular girl, a kiss on the hand is more likely to leave her confused than flattered.  Perhaps *on* the date, or *after* the date, but certainly not when you've just met.  And not in college.   




> _The art of courtship is finding out what the object of your affection desires in a mate, and shaping her perception of you into that ideal mold.  While some silver-tongued soundrels are able to do so by false words, the far more preferrable way is through wholeheartedly adopting or accentuating those aspects your Juliet wishes to see in her Romeo.  _



_ 

Don't change who you are for anyone.  It's not worth it, because even if things work out well, you'll end up resenting her for it later._


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis

Xath said:
			
		

> No no no no no.  A kiss on the hand is one of the first ways to creepify yourself unless you have some sort of European accent.  A simple "Great.  I'll see you then." is ample response.  Especially if this is your first contact with this particular girl, a kiss on the hand is more likely to leave her confused than flattered.  Perhaps *on* the date, or *after* the date, but certainly not when you've just met.  And not in college.




A kiss on the hand after the first "date" is incredibly romantic - something that would absolutely cause me to fall over with the swooning... which is, I believe, what Planesdragon was getting at in his post.  Not kissing on the hand after setting up the date - but _after_ the date.

I guess, I don't know if I speak for most girls, but I love cheesed out romance.  I love a man that opens doors, kisses hands, and treats me like a lady.  ESPECIALLY in college.  Most of the guys I encounter on a regular basis at school are absolute pigs - they have no sense of respect for women (or anyone for that matter).  

By my best guess, the standard college female would find it more than flattering - and unmeasurably refreshing - to meet a guy that was happy to kiss her hand and wish her sweet dreams on their first date.  It's little things like that that made me fall in love.

So, I've got to say that I completely disagree with Xath and completely agree with Planesdragon.


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

[QUOTE = Planesdragon]
Being polite and respectful to a woman is the path to getting not just a one-night stand (which being mean will get you plenty of), but being married -- which is a better deal in just about every way.
[/QUOTE]

i don't see myself ever getting married unless i meet someone who's so perfectly matched to me that it was either destined by God (who i don't believe in) or she's an empathic metamorph like the one Famke Janssen played on that episode of Star Trek: TNG.

i'm not neccessarily looking for a monogamous relationship,  i'm looking to get laid by someone i find attractive, and if that can be by someone who i ALSO click with personality-wise, then so much the better, i would consider commiting to that person for something longer-term (not lifetime though, they would have to click with me prefectly for that).



> Please tear that up and never look at it again. It won't do you any good, and having a tracking system of any kind will only make you despondent -- which will make you LESS likely to find feminine accompanyment, not more.




the matrix isn't a tracking system, it's more of an attempt to spell out what i want out of life...  if i'm attracted to a girl, i'm interested in sleeping with her (or getting to whichever "base" she's willing to go to), if i don't click with her personality-wise then that's all i'm interested in, if i do, i might be interested in an actual relationship.  if i'm not attracted to a girl but we click personality-wise, then i would regard her as a friend like i would a guy.



> What, you mean a girl smiling at you isn't enough to make you feel happy? If you get past "hello" and she responds, you have reason to be genuinely happy. Don't try and fake it -- if a particular girl talking to you doesn't make you even a little bit happy, then it's not going to work at all.




no, the thing is being able to be happy BEFORE the girl talks to me is the problem.  i can't give off an air of confidence when what i'm really feeling inside is a combination of fear and desperation.  yeah, more than likely if a girl shows interest in me that will make me happy (but it has to be pretty obvious interest in order to overcome the self-doubt of "she couldn't possibly like me").  the thing is i can't pull off the fake confidence that GETS you that interest...



> It's not the honesty that's the question, it's the presumption you seem to have that sexual relations (which a kiss falls under) are possible without knowing the person. Unless you're going to go the alcohol route, don't expect to find anyone that loose.




i'm that loose, and I don't drink   i'd be perfectly willing to do someone i didn't know, as long as i was attracted to her.



> Please don't think that this is complex. The type of girl that would make out with someone they don't know is NOT someone that you want to be sharing bodily fluids with.




why not?  that's what condoms are for


----------



## LiKral

You seem very over-anxious about being seen as creepy. In what circumstances have you been called creepy by girls? What did you do immediately beforehand? Knowing this will help people here give you advice. 

Eye contact: I have found that it is best to keep contact slightly longer than you are comfortable with, then look away sideways for a couple of seconds. You need more eye contact than looking away. But if you think about it too much, then you start to seem distant! Remember that when females complain about 'staring' they mean lewd staring or gawping, not eye contact. 

As for the talking to girls who are sitting in the cafeteria reading, that is a great idea. Don't pass up the opportunity to talk to a girl reading a SF/Fantasy novel. This almost certainly means she is some sort of geek. If you like the book, then be positive about it - it gives you a vital thing in common. If you don't like that particular book, talk anyway and steer the conversation to something similar that you do like without saying something negative. Even if the girl is not attractive, it will give you valuable practice in talking to geek females and she might introduce you to her friends sometime. If you get on well, ask to borrow the book when she is done (that is a great compliment and means you have an excuse to meet up with her!) 

If she does not want to talk to you she will either say 'I don't want to talk now' or repeatedly something short and non-committal like "Uh huh" or 'Maybe'. There is no danger of offending someone by simply chatting to them in a cafeteria unless they are already so highly strung that they are offended by everything, in which case, don't let it get to you.

The best way of asking girls out is to already know them. You don't have to be best friends, but prior aquaintance really helps. Have some casual conversations with a girl, then ask her out if she did not freeze you out the previous times. That way she will feel more comfortable with you. Don't ask her back to your room because that is coming on a little strong. Ask her out to a nice cafe.


----------



## LiKral

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> why not?  that's what condoms are for



Infection is not the only consideration; what if you fall in love and she breaks your heart? 

Remember that women like men who think of them as more than just sex-providers. If they think that is all you are after, then they will be wary of you, unless you are a Brad Pitt lookalike. It is just female nature, and a throwback to before birth control when it was disastrous to be literally left holding the baby. You can make sure that you have sufficient sincerity by only hitting on women that you have something in common with (i.e. geeks)


----------



## Voodoo

OK here goes, 

Eye Contact: Before you've talked for the first time hold eye contact for about one more second then seems comfortable (this should be about 3-4 seconds) then look away and smile to yourself then look back. If shes not interested she will have taken the oportunity to look away, if she is interested she will look back at you. Now if your in a corridor, walk past her, without look directly at her as you pass, and after a couple of steps look over you shoulder. If shes interested she also will most likely be looking over her shoulder. Then smile at her and walk away to get on with your day. If she has looked over her shoulder at you she will probably be feeling a bit self conscious being caught peeking but also very complimented that she caused someone to pause for her. Next time you meet the mutual attraction will have been established without risky rejection or creepy full on pestering.

Body Language: This is incredibly important if you want to give off the right signals, unfortuantly is also quite difficult to 'learn'. Try to remember just a few body language tips but don't try everything at once, you'll never remember it all and you need to be focusing on her as well. Top body language tips: touching your face will make you seem nervous as will crossing your arms, respect her personal space (only ever put you arm up penning them in if you have fantastic biceps (and exceptional personal hygine), Make eye contact as much as you can, if you need to look else where look at her lips (it shows your paying attention) DO NOT look down at the floor and then back to her eyes, it will appear you have just sized her up like a lump of meat. One last thing on body language, if you're in a group try to notice where her feet are pointed, most people subconsciously point there feet where there attention is focused.

Female Friends: Female friends are the best help you can get, if you can make a few they will help in so many ways, telling you what to do, what you did wrong, what to do next time. However their best quality lies in the most women think they know best when it comes to there female friends relationships. If you have female friends who like and respect you they will be trying to set you up with there single friends.

Jerk or Nice Guy: Jerks get laid, nice guys get relationships, decide what you want.

Hygine: Always be clean as you never know when you might meet a girl you fancy. Always carry gum as bits of stuck food can make your breath smell really quickly without you knowing it (though bin it asap, no-one want to see you spitting out gum)

That about covers 101 in meeting girls, though if you want to 'understand women' you'll need a few lifetimes.


----------



## mythago

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i'm not neccessarily looking for a monogamous relationship, i'm looking to get laid by someone i find attractive



 Then be up-front about that. I don't mean walking in and saying "Hi, wanna get it on? My name's Hida." But if you are clear that you want a friendly hook-up, you will attract women who are, likewise, interested in friendly hook-ups. If you try the Mild Jerk Technique, or pretend you want a relationship, you will hurt a lot of people needlessly. And the women you DO want to meet will pass you by, because they are trying to avoid guys looking for more.



			
				Planesdragon said:
			
		

> jumping to the other side wholesale will only convince the woman's reproductive chemistry to treat you like any other nonagressive, supporting and understanding person



 If women's reproductive chemistry were all alike, we'd all want the exact same guy and none of the rest of you would get married. Some of us chicks have plenty of aggression and aren't looking for a mate who finds that to be a problem, you know?


----------



## phadeout

wow, ok.  First off, I'd like to say, there is hope for the geek in all of us.  I met the perfect cute geek by doing what?  Being myself and just playing D&D.  If it wasn't for D&D, I woulda never met the girl of my dreams (and it goes vice versa for her).  Very interesting story, it was almost magical (in a geek way lol).  I remember the second sentence she said in my presence (and this is where I fell off the chair)  "Hmmmm, Smoked Sausage, Beer and D&D!?!  Can life get any better?"    

Neways, here is Our advice to those geeks like us.  See link:

http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/?t=archives&date=2004-03-20

(warning, link contains a single word of profanity, so if that might bother you, you were warned).


Happy hunting and thank gawd for D&D!


----------



## Afrodyte

Pay no attention to the double-post behind the curtain.


----------



## Afrodyte

Queen_Dopplepopolis said:
			
		

> By my best guess, the standard college female would find it more than flattering - and unmeasurably refreshing - to meet a guy that was happy to kiss her hand and wish her sweet dreams on their first date.  It's little things like that that made me fall in love.




It happened once at the end of a boffer combat duel, and I was, in fact, very flattered.  Too bad it didn't happen much more often than that.


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

well i won't know until i get to know her whether she falls into the "just wanna bang her" category or the "relationship" category, so should i be a jerk or nice guy on the first date...

being a jerk doesn't come naturally to me, at least not the confident macho swggering jerk.  i can pull off the "i'm so much smarter than everyone else and all you pathetic humans are beneath me" arrogant elitist snob-type jerk (like the Simpsons Comic Book Guy) pretty well, but that's not the type of jerk girls go for.


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## Teflon Billy

mythago said:
			
		

> ...The nice guys I know, the ones who are kind and respectful and treat the woman as a person, have to keep a written calendar to keep their dates organized. Seriously...




Then we know a very diffrent circle of nice guys. the Nice guys I know never, _ever_ have any luck. It drives them mad that despite being classic nice guys (and they by all accounts are) that this doesn't interest women. It doesn't get a "foot in the door" to quote an earlier poster.

Women talk a good game about liking "nice guys with a sense of humour" and suchlike. But in my experience (and that of most every guy I know; inlcuding my Grandfather, my English Prof, a Professional Wrestler, a "Hairstylist to the Stars" and a Deacon, to give you some notion of the range of folks I'm describing here) there is no doubt that it was no accident that our culture developed the proverb _Nice guys finish last_.

Because they do.

And yes, there will always be a girl who post to a thread like this claiming that neither they, nor any girl they kow likes jerks at all. While I am certain that's true in their case(s), it is not statistically signifigant enough to offset the fact that _nice guys finish last_ is a truism.

It just means that they and their friends are anomalies.

I'm entirely spoken for at the moment (and happily so), but back in the day I had no shortage of women (I was a Serial Monogamist; one girl at a atime, but no intention of settling down). 

the women were there  because I followed very simple advice. I have no idea why these rules work--they shouldn't-- but they do.

1) *Deflate the girl a little*. Don't agree with everything she says. Show her up in front of her friends.

2) *Spend Money*. Not necessarily on her. This one blows me away. if you spend a lot fo money on a girl, you are a mark. But buy drinks for yourself, your friends and--occassionally-- her, and you are _in_.

3) *Don't take a lot of crap*. Be ready to walk away from drama. This ones tough because you can easily get the the feeling that you are throwing away the relationship and that can make you cave. Don't. Stick to your guns and she will--inexpicably--be back.

4) *Side iwith her against others*. Girls constantly snipe, gossip and generally dig at one another, even (and maybe expecially) their friends. Join in on her side. eg...

[bq] Her: "Molly is such a slut"
You: "Yeah well, that's not exactly news in my circles"
Her: "Really?"
You: "Oh yeah"[/bq]

...this is also a good opportunity to engage in rule 1 (deflating her a little)

[bq] You: "I thought Molly was a friend of yours?"
Her: "well, she is"
You: *shrug*"I guess guys just treat their friends differently"[/bq]

5) *Play to your masculine personality strengths*. What is pretty simple stuff for men is just beyond the pale for a large percentage of women. Work on "Not treating _every_ situation as a full-on crisis" and "Not sweating the small stuff". Your ability to not worry about everything imaginable is both attractive and aggravating to most women.

6) *Be ready to fail*: Most women you meet are not going to be all that into you (unless you already have a girl interested in you), this is just the way of things. it is a _lot_ easier for an average girl to get an above average guy than vice-versa. You need to pick you battles. Meet a lot of women, work on the ones who show an interest. Be ready and willing to walk.

That's about it.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Voodoo said:
			
		

> Jerk or Nice Guy: Jerks get laid, nice guys get relationships, decide what you want.




Wrong. Jerks get the girl, they can proceeed from there in whatever direction they choose.

Nice guys get "really good female friends" 



> Hygine: Always be clean as you never know when you might meet a girl you fancy. Always carry gum as bits of stuck food can make your breath smell really quickly without you knowing it (though bin it asap, no-one want to see you spitting out gum)




Couldn't agree more here. I use Tic Tacs rather than gum.


----------



## Torm

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> well i won't know until i get to know her whether she falls into the "just wanna bang her" category or the "relationship" category, so should i be a jerk or nice guy on the first date...



No offense, dude, but with the "just wanna bang her" comment, you pretty much decided it right there, didn't you?  

A lot of the stuff Teflon Billy is talking about does work, and while its hard to lay the blame entirely on the guys - the people involved in the women's upbringing deserve some blame, and one would hope women themselves would be a little more self-actualized - all of this sort of behavior plays on ways that women have been mistreated by other men in their lives - father, brothers, ex-boyfriends, etc. - and usually only reinforces the problems in them when whatever you wanted them for is over. It moves them further from being "the sort of girl you bring home to Mom" - as the old song says, "It wasn't God who made honky tonk angels."

Courtship, in the classical sense, believe it or not, still works - if you see a girl you want to meet with some of her friends, approach one of them, and ask them to introduce you. Be yourself - period. From there, make gentle suggestions, but allow her to set the pace. If she is weak in character or self-esteem, build her up. If she acts as though she's afraid to debate anything with you, MAKE her fight you - if she has a problem with you, you want her to be willing and able to come to YOU about it, not her friends behind your back. Dedicate yourself to her entirely (and I mean entirely) until she makes it clear that that is unwelcome or she dishonors you in some obviously intentional fashion. (And even then, be ready to forgive repentance.) Be willing to die for her and more, be willing to LIVE for her.

That, in my humble opinion, is the biggest problem with modern life - everyone seems to be out for #1, and they've forgotten the joy of purpose. Your kids, your love, maybe your country or god, and then you - in that order. And dedication to them comes at Moment One - maybe they can lose it, but they should never have to earn it. Its that simple.

Being the jerk may "get you some", but in the end it will be no more satisfying that what you could have gotten from a magazine or the internet and a free hand, and you may have hurt someone.

But don't tell me you didn't expect *Torm * to come out in favor of honor and chivalry.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> well i won't know until i get to know her whether she falls into the "just wanna bang her" category or the "relationship" category, so should i be a jerk or nice guy on the first date...




A Jerk.



> being a jerk doesn't come naturally to me, at least not the confident macho swggering jerk.




Then start off slow. Find something she 's talking about and be negative about it. She likes American Idol? Guess what you just decided is stupid.



> i can pull off the "i'm so much smarter than everyone else and all you pathetic humans are beneath me" arrogant elitist snob-type jerk (like the Simpsons Comic Book Guy) pretty well, but that's not the type of jerk girls go for.




No, they sure aren't lining up for Comic Book Guy


----------



## jeff37923

For all the good advice I've seen on this thread, I can't shake the feeling that it will inspire a few panels of "Something*Positive" soon....


----------



## Teflon Billy

Torm said:
			
		

> ...allow her to set the pace. If she is weak in character or self-esteem, build her up. If she acts as though she's afraid to debate anything with you, MAKE her fight you - if she has a problem with you, you want her to be willing and able to come to YOU about it, not her friends behind your back. Dedicate yourself to her entirely (and I mean entirely) until she makes it clear that that is unwelcome or she dishonors you in some obviously intentional fashion. (And even then, be ready to forgive repentance.) Be willing to die for her and more, be willing to LIVE for her...




This is all very high-minded and looks great on paper. I think Torm is most likely an excellent human being who I would be proud to call a friend if he actually beleives al of the above.

but followin that advice is going to do one of two things. 

1) Make you seem stuffy, or

2) Make you seem creepy.

The latter stands in stark contrast to Hida's stated goals in the title of this thread, and I can't think that the former is too high on his list either.

Hida is looking for his "first" (first kiss, first girlfriend etc). He doesn't need rules for treating women like queens. that wil get him burned to no effect.

He needs to be following my advice.

When he is looking to settle down with Mrs. Right, that's when you bring Torm's advice onto the table. 

 It will give Mrs Right the impression that she has "changed you", and that's "woman ina relationship" gold right there


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

Torm said:
			
		

> No offense, dude, but with the "just wanna bang her" comment, you pretty much decided it right there, didn't you?
> 
> A lot of the stuff Teflon Billy is talking about does work, and while its hard to lay the blame entirely on the guys - the people involved in the women's upbringing deserve some blame, and one would hope women themselves would be a little more self-actualized - all of this sort of behavior plays on ways that women have been mistreated by other men in their lives - father, brothers, ex-boyfriends, etc. - and usually only reinforces the problems in them when whatever you wanted them for is over. It moves them further from being "the sort of girl you bring home to Mom" - as the old song says, "It wasn't God who made honky tonk angels."
> 
> Courtship, in the classical sense, believe it or not, still works - if you see a girl you want to meet with some of her friends, approach one of them, and ask them to introduce you. Be yourself - period. From there, make gentle suggestions, but allow her to set the pace. If she is weak in character or self-esteem, build her up. If she acts as though she's afraid to debate anything with you, MAKE her fight you - if she has a problem with you, you want her to be willing and able to come to YOU about it, not her friends behind your back. Dedicate yourself to her entirely (and I mean entirely) until she makes it clear that that is unwelcome or she dishonors you in some obviously intentional fashion. (And even then, be ready to forgive repentance.) Be willing to die for her and more, be willing to LIVE for her.
> 
> That, in my humble opinion, is the biggest problem with modern life - everyone seems to be out for #1, and they've forgotten the joy of purpose. Your kids, your love, maybe your country or god, and then you - in that order. And dedication to them comes at Moment One - maybe they can lose it, but they should never have to earn it. Its that simple.
> 
> Being the jerk may "get you some", but in the end it will be no more satisfying that what you could have gotten from a magazine or the internet and a free hand, and you may have hurt someone.
> 
> But don't tell me you didn't expect *Torm * to come out in favor of honor and chivalry.




that's great if you're lawful good.  but i look out for number 1 first, although i do try to avoid hurting others when possible, and i believe in staying true to myself as an individual above all, so that makes me firmly chaotic neutral

i do agree that deceiving women in order to obtain sex from them is wrong.  i guess this is how i envision the process:

1.) notice attractive female
2.) talk to her
3.) try to meet for "date"
4.) on date, get to know her and evaluate her personality
5.) determine whether there is any attraction that goes beyond physical
6a.) if yes, then at end of night tell her i'm interested in a relationship
6b.) if no, then at end of night tell her i'm only interested in her physically, and ask if that's ok with her


----------



## barsoomcore

Dude, get a spine. Try something. What is the absolute worst thing that could possibly happen? I'll tell you what -- she could laugh at you and tell all her friends about what a loser you are.

Oh well. There's a certain percentage of human beings on this planet who are going to think you're a loser NO MATTER WHAT. You better get used to it.

And odds are pretty low she's going to do that. And if she's the sort of girl who acts that way, hey! Better you find out now.

TB's right -- being a bit of a jerk is an attractive thing. I don't mean be cruel, but be strong. Call her on her crap. Don't agree with everything she says and don't be a doormat, in the hopes that she'll take pity on you or reward you for your good behaviour. Why shouldn't SHE have to do a little work to get YOU? Won't she be more excited about "acquiring" you if it's something of a challenge? So don't make it too easy for her -- that's self-defeating.

But that all comes from confidence. And frankly, if you haven't got that or aren't willing to acquire it, well, I guess you can always hope for the best. Sometimes that works out.


----------



## Qlippoth

To be honest, I don't think the whole "meeting new people" phenom implies only 2 possible strategies (#1. Be nice & sweet & reap the consequences; #2. Be a "jerk" and reap the consequences).  I think there's much to be gained from combining these approaches.  I certainly don't rate myself a "player" (wouldn't want to), but there are genuine results to being "difficult" (note: that doesn't mean "surly" or "crude"). The idea is not to drag a potential significant other down, but to introduce some silly (yes, "silly") conflict that PLAYFULLY can spur conversation, during which both people (ideally) get to find out about each other (g-d, that sounds so Leo Buscaglia).  Witty repartee was something that Hollywood idolized in the past; there's no harm in throwing some (however frivolous) dialogue towards someone who might very well respond in kind (it's called "flirting").  Be yourself, but don't be a marshmallow.  The right girl will appreciate the sweetness (if you have it) after having met you.


----------



## Darrin Drader

Torm said:
			
		

> Dedicate yourself to her entirely (and I mean entirely) until she makes it clear that that is unwelcome or she dishonors you in some obviously intentional fashion. (And even then, be ready to forgive repentance.)



No offense, but this is the single worst piece of advice I've seen in this thread. If you dedicate yourself entirely to a girl, you neglect yourself and the girl will start to take advantage of your goodwill. I'm speaking from experience here, I did that with my wife, and it caused so much trouble down the road when I wasn't able to sustain that any more. The bottom line is that there is no such thing as a selfless act. If you sacrifice something important to you to a stranger, you are doing it because it makes you feel good to do it. By the same token, if you are taking care of her better than yourself, then there's a pretty good reason you're doing it; most likely the nookie you're getting. Unless you want to spend the rest of your life at her beck and call, do not do this. Besides, the majority of women are more likely to break up with you if you do this because they start seeing this as clingy, or because they flat out don't respect you.

In fact, I would say that a borderline apathetic approach is a far better bet. She should have to prove to you why she's good enough to keep. Do that and you'll be surprised at how happy you'll be in the long run.


----------



## Humanophile

Billy, re-read your advice.  Re-read what Hida's been saying.  Torm's rhetoric is something to follow when you have the luxury (emotional and otherwise) of being able to pick your choice of girls; the really swell ones don't play or require games, but they're an extreme minority.  Your advice is good for hooking up, but expecting Hida to be able to pull it off gives me 2e memories, where new players were given characters piled with powerful-yet-complicated rules and end up too confused to actually do anything productive.  (This could just be my 2e experience, but I'm sure enough of you understand this digression.)

Hida, yes it would be lovely if things could be that simple.  But unless you have the massive advantage (looks/money/charisma, and at our ages girls come in ahead of an "equal" boy), that's not how it works.  If you're looking for that much simplicity, massively tone down your requirements, or be willing to pay up-front.  Otherwise, stop thinking like a gamer geek with the book in front of him, and start thinking like a gamer geek in play.  Start "leveling up", learning how to talk to girls before trying more complex relationship dynamics.  It will suck at several steps, but the only alternative requires significant cash flow for the rest of your romanic life.  And for god's sake, stop thinking "if I hold eye contact for three seconds, smile at the one minute mark, and press the jump button three times, I can unlock the pantyland level".  The rules are far more complicated than that, and the only way to learn them is practice.  Better to have an okay conversation now, learn how to play the social games, and earn your firsts down the line than to try too early and fail miserably.  At the beginning, just focus on the conversation, and it's perfectly fine to admit that you're not comfortable/used to talking to girls.  You try looking more skilled and confident, and doing the things that require more skill and confidence, when you're actually more skilled and confident.


----------



## Torm

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> When he is looking to settle down with Mrs. Right, that's when you bring Torm's advice onto the table.
> 
> It will give Mrs Right the impression that she has "changed you", and that's "woman ina relationship" gold right there



Bwah ha ha! That's downright *diabolical*.  I _like_ you, TB! Ever get near my daughter, and we'll have trouble - but I _do_ like you.   



			
				Whisperfoot said:
			
		

> No offense, but this is the single worst piece of advice I've seen in this thread. <snip> I'm speaking from experience here, I did that with my wife, and it caused so much trouble down the road when I wasn't able to sustain that any more.



No offense taken - I know how much of a fool you can feel when you gave all, and they stomped on it. All too well. But not every girl will take advantage of you. Okay, maybe that's not quite the right way to say it. Rather, I should say not every girl will take advantage of it in ways you would ever mind. Or bluntly, not every woman is a selfish &@$!.   

I didn't say it was easy, or even moderately not hard. Heck, I had one relationship (see Worst Dates Ever thread) that ended with me almost completely broken - the woman who became the wife I'm married to pretty much literally saved my life. But I'd rather go through that pain ten times again than live in a relationship where I wasn't who I *really* am to the person who is supposed to know me better than anyone else, and where I wasn't in it ALL the way.

But to clarify one thing I said, I said to accept repentance - repentance has to be REAL. You should give the benefit of the doubt, but you'll know when you're being played - I didn't say be a _complete fool_, but to be dedicated.

Note to Hida Bukkorosu: I think barsoomcore has given the best advice that has been posted in this thread in a little while, in the first few lines of his previous post - too much of this advice is about (and I'm sure the ladies here will just LOVE _this_ analogy   ) what to do once you've gotten the fish in the boat, when what you're really asking is how to cast your bait. Honestly, a lot of the post-catch stuff, you're going to have to decide on the fly, depending on what kind of fish you caught. But what barsoomcore said about just putting yourself out there, and not being afraid of rejection when they, too, are just stupid humans   , is probably the best place to start any encounter.

And your checklist of stuff to do sounds pretty honorable to me - straightforward discussion of options is great. Hate to tell you this if you're one of those people who hates paladins, but Torm approves your plan as stated so far...


----------



## Orblivia

Jesus_marley said:
			
		

> The problem with meeting and dating the opposite sex nowadays is that men are restricted by so many laws as to what they can and cannot say and do.
> 
> Courting is now called stalking.
> Wooing is harassment.
> What once was considered charming is now called creepy.
> 
> You practically need a team of lawyers behind you when you approach somebody you are interested in. There is such an atmosphere of distrust and wariness that pervades the entire dating experience that neutral meetings in neutral venues are the only safe way to go without being arrested.
> 
> Am I bitter?  Nah!





Ponderous.....

Courting is courting and stalking is stalking, never the twains shall meet.

You wanna come a courtin call ahead.

And what is a woo anyhow?


Look to the OP here is my advice-

Be yourself, love that self, bathe regularly and strive to be your best. Really thats all anyone can ask and if she isnt into it keep it movin. Someone better for you will be there


----------



## maddman75

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i don't think i can pull off the confidence thing, i have no ability to fake emotions.  it was a lot of trouble when i worked at the movie theatre i couldn't force myself to "smile" when i did not feel happy.




Good.  That is not the goal.  You do not need to pretend to be confident in yourself, you need to actually do it.  You need to realize that you're a good guy, you'd make a great boyfriend, and if she doesn't realize this it is her loss and her problem.  If you don't realize these things you got bigger problems than picking up women.



> my major goal right now is to have my first kiss before i graduate.  i'm open to the idea of love if i meet the right person or people but am not opposed to a purely physical relationship either.  i also don't want to decieve girls as to where they stand in the matrix either, i don't feel it's right to make a girl think you want an LTR when she's in the "physical fun" category.




Why are you deciding ahead of time what the nature of the future relationship is?  Just go with it.  If its just physical, well that's what it is.  If its more, then great.



> in a perfect world, i'd be able to go up to girls and say "hi.  you're hot.  wanna make out?" in a simple and direct way, and even if the girl was not interested in making out with me she would be flattered instead of offended and politely turn me down and i would politely move on and ask the next girl.
> 
> unfortunately, society frowns on this open honesty and prefers these silly convoluted dating rituals, and its so ingrained in the culture to the point where expressing interest is offensive to the point of being illegal unless it's done in a certain way.




Wrong.  There is no law against going up to a strange woman and saying 'Nice shoes wanna [explitive deleted]'.  Not that you'll have a high batting average with this method, and its rather rude, but you aren't going to get arrested for being an ass.



> so i'm trying to figure out how to, well, approach girls with the intent of asking them out, without making them extremely uncomfortable, in a way in which i can get an honest acceptance or refusal, and in a way in which people won't look at me and say "call security there's some creepy guy harassing girls!".




You are worrying about things that do not exist.  Has this ever happened to you?  I seriously doubt it.  More likely you imagine this may happen.  Most girls if not interested will politely decline, or make up some excuse.  Where do you think 'let's just be friends' comes from.  No one wants to have some confrontation just because someone is interested in you.

This is given, of course, that you aren't fixating on one girl.  That fixation breeds desire and desperation, which is poison to attraction.  Don't fixate or come up with some mental construct of a relationship that does not exist.



> one more question:  say a girl is sitting in the cafeteria or on a bench reading a book or studying...  how do i know if she does or doesn't want to be interrupted?  see a lot of times i'll be bored sitting around on campus, and i'll start reading a book or studying but wouldn't mind being interrupted by someone interested in talking to me particularily if it was a girl...  so my question is how do i differntiate the girls who are thinking like me in that regard from the ones who are seriously studying / engrossed in their reading and don't want to be bothered, so i know which ones i can safely try to "chat up"?




Why are you worried about what she might be thinking?  You're trying to think for two people now.  Just go up and talk to her.  If she's seriously engrossed her body language will tell you right off.  If she gives quick noncommittal answers and keeps looking at her book, move on to greener pastures.


----------



## Torm

Humanophile said:
			
		

> Torm's rhetoric is something to follow when you have the luxury (emotional and otherwise) of being able to pick your choice of girls; the really swell ones don't play or require games, but they're an extreme minority.



It isn't "rhetoric" - the difference between you and I is that I believe that almost all women (people in general, for that matter) are, if not outright diamonds, then diamonds in the rough. I used to would have left out that "almost", but I have met a very few _truly_ broken people.    But I still believe that for the most part, _anyone_ can have the best drawn out if you take the time and care to do it right. The games are there, but they aren't usually even their fault - the games are their logical response to what the world has shown them so far. You just have to show them more than what they've already seen.


----------



## Banshee16

Captain Loincloth said:
			
		

> Get a dog   Dogs instantly decreepify men.  Don't ask me why,  I don't know.  But somehow women find men who have dogs much less creepy than men without dogs.



Maybe if you can nurture a dog, give it attention, and keep it from starving to death, you might have hope with children? 

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

BOZ said:
			
		

> but here's the real thing - don't try _too_ hard.  if something doesn't evolve naturally out of first casual, and eventually more intimate conversation, as well as spending time together both going out and staying in, then you simply cannot force it to happen.




This is an excellent point.  A lot of guys seem to want to "make" something happen.  You can't.  Something will happen when you're ready.  And often it's easiest to be successful when you're not trying to meet anyone...when you're just being yourself, trying to make new friends, being friendly, and not caring.  Women can smell when a guy is looking to meet someone, and often don't find it very attractive.

Banshee


----------



## Torm

Orblivia said:
			
		

> Courting is courting and stalking is stalking, never the twains shall meet.



This reminds me of something a comedienne (whose name eludes me at the moment) says in her routine about the thing that determines whether a situation is sexual harassment or not is whether or not she thinks the guy is cute.   

Not saying I agree, but it _is_ something to ponder.


----------



## Humanophile

Torm said:
			
		

> ..._anyone_ can have the best drawn out if you take the time and care to do it right. The games are there, but they aren't usually even their fault - the games are their logical response to what the world has shown them so far. You just have to show them more than what they've already seen.




First, drawing out the best takes time, care... and skill.  Walk in with just the belief that "love makes it all better", you'd do less damage if you walked in with a critical mass of U-238.

More importantly, while most people could be "polished up", doing so requires that you first get past their defenses, then that you work out their issues.  Both of those require ...(wait for it)... _games_.  So yes, one can play games to bring about a game-free relationship.  That doesn't change my original statement (people who don't play/require games from the get-go being insanely rare) one bit.


----------



## Thotas

Torm, according to what I see posted in my workplace, that's not a joke.  The way it's phrased, any expression of interest is harrassment if it's "unwanted".  No chance given to take "No" for an answer.   Which is taking a good and decent rule into the realm of sheer stupidity motivated by paranoia.


----------



## Droid101

This could be the funniest thread I've ever seen.

No, wait, the Everquest Search for Love is, but this is close.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Torm said:
			
		

> This reminds me of something a comedienne (whose name eludes me at the moment) says in her routine about the thing that determines whether a situation is sexual harassment or not is whether or not she thinks the guy is cute.




That's *Elaine Boozler* I think, a good friend of *Jerry Seinfeld*'s and the basis for the character *Elaine Benis* from his TV show.


----------



## devilish

Thotas said:
			
		

> Torm, according to what I see posted in my workplace, that's not a joke.  The way it's phrased, any expression of interest is harrassment if it's "unwanted".  No chance given to take "No" for an answer.   Which is taking a good and decent rule into the realm of sheer stupidity motivated by paranoia.




Had a lawyer come into work to teach all the managers "the rules," at least
here in the States in CT.

You're allowed 1 "no" to an expression of interest from anyone except a direct report.  If you persist, then it's harrassment.

With direct reports, you're not allowed at all.  This includes people who report into
the people who report into you, etc.


----------



## devilish

Humanophile said:
			
		

> Otherwise, stop thinking like a gamer geek with the book in front of him, and start thinking like a gamer geek in play.  Start "leveling up", learning how to talk to girls before trying more complex relationship dynamics.  It will suck at several steps, but the only alternative requires significant cash flow for the rest of your romanic life.




Hmmm.... "Before you take on the succubus or the nymphs, you've got
to wade through the goblins, orcs and trolls." 

Sound advice.


----------



## Teflon Billy

devilish said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... "Before you take on the succubus or the nymphs, you've got
> to wade through the goblins, orcs and trolls."
> 
> Sound advice.




Yeah, understanding the league you are capable of competing in is important, no argument.


----------



## Obryn

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> that's great if you're lawful good.  but i look out for number 1 first, although i do try to avoid hurting others when possible, and i believe in staying true to myself as an individual above all, so that makes me firmly chaotic neutral



It's going to be rough being non-creepy if you're defining everyone in terms of D&D alignments.

Let's start from the top.  What do you look like?  I'm serious here.  Are you tall? short? fat? thin?  Is there anything you could do to improve the way you look?  Do you have good hygeine?  What kinds of clothes do you wear?  If it's mostly black T-shirts or button-ups with silkscreen dragons, it might be time to expand your wardrobe.  If you have long hair, is it greasy?  If you have short hair, is it groomed well?  

It will be really rough not to come across as creepy if you _look_ creepy.

I'll be blunt.  It seems from reading this thread that you need more help than just "not being creepy."  You sound desperate, and that in turn leads directly to creepy.

There are a lot of folks who are saying not to change who you are...  Don't listen to them.  Change who you are and _make yourself better._  Expand your horizons and get other hobbies.  Lose some weight (or gain some muscle) and improve your appearance.  Bathe.  Brush your teeth several times a day.  Don't do it for the girls, do it for yourself.  Maybe if you are happier with that, you'll be able to work things out better.

I once weighed 270.  After going on a humongous crash diet, I got down to 185 in about seven months.  I felt great about myself and looked way better.  Guess when I had better luck with women.

Next, give up on the excessive intellectualization.  Holy cow, the "relationship matrix," the references to D&D alignment, asking how many seconds of eye contact is appropriate...  It made my eyes bleed.  Stop rationalizing so damn much.

Oh, and finally don't ask for relationship advice on a gaming board.  You might feel comfortable here, but it's not exactly stud central.  Hell, take my advice with a grain of salt, too.  I do okay for myself, but not _that_ well.

Teflon Billy gave you the straight dope, though it might take a bit of work to get yourself to the place you need to be in order to use it.

-O


----------



## Orblivia

Torm said:
			
		

> This reminds me of something a comedienne (whose name eludes me at the moment) says in her routine about the thing that determines whether a situation is sexual harassment or not is whether or not she thinks the guy is cute.
> 
> Not saying I agree, but it _is_ something to ponder.





Well Torm....

I think with SOME women that is the case but the goal is not to go for the fruity bugpoopy nuts ones. (god this is hard not to be vular...must remember Eric's grandmother...)


But unles it is one of the bugpoopy nuts women she is gonna give you (the universal not the hey you over there) real clear signs that pretty much say 'go away not interested'

I would recokon some posters here need to understand that. (not you, youappear to have a grasp). 

Ah well...and I think it was Elaine Boozler.


----------



## tarchon

I'm told by many married guys that the wedding ring seems to attract women, so maybe you could fake being married. She might be pretty upset to find out you're really single though. I think you could hire somebody to pretend to be your wife, maybe get a fake divorce if it gets really serious.


----------



## Buttercup

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i'm that loose, and I don't drink  i'd be perfectly willing to do someone i didn't know, as long as i was attracted to her.



Then go pay a prostitute.  

I'm going to give you some tough love here, because I think you need it.  (I haven't read every single post, so I may be repeating advice given elsewhere.  If that's the case, sorry!)

The more you have said about yourself, about what you want, about your "matrix", the questions about how long to hold eye contact, the more convinced I have become that you *are* being creepy.  

If you are attending a coed college or university, then you are around many women every day.  Either you are invisible to them, or you are creeping them out, or you are doing something to rebuff them when they initiate conversation with you.

If it's the first, you need to look to your physical attributes.  Do you bathe?  Brush your teeth and comb your hair?  Wear clothes that fit?  Are you hundreds of pounds overweight?  If you are guilty of poor hygiene, sloppiness or obesity, then that's where you need to start fixing yourself.  And hey, don't do this for women, do it for yourself.  Nobody is going to hire you after you graduate if you smell bad or dress like a pig.  And if you're hugely fat, you'll die young.  (Also, if you're hugely fat, you probably don't smell so good.  Sorry, but it's true.)

So, what if all that stuff is ok, but you're creeping them out?  Obviously you are concerned that this is the case.  I'm afraid that I must suggest you seek counselling.   Most people learn social behaviors automatically as they grow up, and have mastered things like eye contact, body language, personal space and so forth before they hit puberty.  The reason it's hard for people to tell you how to do this stuff correctly is because the vast majority of folks never thought about it, they just picked it up.  If you are one of the tragic few who didn't, you need to find out what's wrong with you.  Seriously.  I'm not saying you're rotten or anything, but something is wrong, and you need to fix it.

Ok, so what if women actually have tried to befriend you, and you rebuffed them without knowing it?  In this case, maybe you're painfully shy, or maybe you're missing cues (of a different sort than I mentioned in the paragraph above) that other people learn automatically.  Again, I'd suggest counselling.

Lots of people have told you to be yourself, to act natural.  I'll add that you should stop over-intellectualizing your problem.  Don't think, just be.  People who make friends easily don't think about every word they're going to say ahead of time--they just wing it.  If you want to enjoy life, you need to learn to do that.  Be in the moment.  Let it happen.  

See, if you're obsessing about "hitting on girls" then you aren't going to be spontaneous.  That's why I think you should just go pay a prostitute to get your first experience out of the way.  Actually, as clinical as you're being about the whole thing, I'm sort of surprised this hasn't already occurred to you.

Final note.  If they're over 18, they aren't girls.  If you think hitting on them is a good idea, then you need to stop thinking of them as walking sources of your sexual satisfaction and remember they're just as human as you are, each one unique.  You won't get respect if you don't give it.


----------



## Wormwood

According to my wife (who I *actually* consulted for this thread):

 1. You have approximately 30 seconds to make an impression. If she doesn't greenlight you in half a minute, it ain't happening (barring alcohol and personal tragedy).

   2. Become athletic and attractive (ie. appeal to genetics)

   3. Become wealthy or popular (ie. appeal to security and status).

   At this point, I'd like to point out how bitter and cynical my wife is.

   /Wormwood. Good genes but broke.


----------



## Buttercup

Obryn said:
			
		

> I'll be blunt. It seems from reading this thread that you need more help than just "not being creepy." You sound desperate, and that in turn leads directly to creepy.



 Amen, brother.



> I once weighed 270.



 Wow, really?  You look perfectly ok now.    I don't know if you remember me from GenCon, but I never would have guessed.  



> Next, give up on the excessive intellectualization. Holy cow, the "relationship matrix," the references to D&D alignment, asking how many seconds of eye contact is appropriate... It made my eyes bleed. Stop rationalizing so damn much.



 It actually made me a tad nervous.  This is the sort of stuff that scary men do.



> Teflon Billy gave you the straight dope, though it might take a bit of work to get yourself to the place you need to be in order to use it.



Actually, I'm sure T-Bill's advice works with certain kinds of women.  Not all of them, though.  I've always gone for the sweet, shy guys, in fact I married one.  My reaction to jerks ranges from fear to telling them to go **** themselves.


----------



## Brennin Magalus

Buttercup said:
			
		

> That's why I think you should just go pay a prostitute to get your first experience out of the way.




Suggesting someone seek out a prostitute is not tough love; it is perverse.


----------



## Buttercup

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Suggesting someone seek out a prostitute is not tough love; it is perverse.



Why?  He clearly doesn't want a relationship.  He also doesn't know how to get what he does want.  I'm just being honest.  Perhaps it will shock him into looking more closely at his assumptions.


----------



## Crothian

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Suggesting someone seek out a prostitute is not tough love; it is perverse.




As was the comment that initiated that, except more so.


----------



## Buttercup

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> When he is looking to settle down with Mrs. Right, that's when you bring Torm's advice onto the table.
> 
> It will give Mrs Right the impression that she has "changed you", and that's "woman ina relationship" gold right there



T-Bill, you're a rapscallion, you know that?


----------



## Brennin Magalus

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Why?  He clearly doesn't want a relationship.  He also doesn't know how to get what he does want.  I'm just being honest.  Perhaps it will shock him into looking more closely at his assumptions.




I think there is a difference between pointing that out and actually suggesting it.


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

looks:  i have a bit of a gut, which i'd like to get rid of, but that's probably not gonna happen
unless they invent a way to do so without large chas investment or willpower (something which i have not been gifted with)

i do try to bathe, shave, and use deodorant when i'm going to places i know girls might be.

as for how i dress, i dress for comfort and convienience and to express my personality.  i express my personality through t-shirts that relate to my interests (not all of them are black either, though most are).  i'm not going to change who i am and become a trendy, i despise the "fashion trend" crowd and all that they stand for.  i'm happy with "who i am" in this area, the only way anyone's getting me to wear things that aren't "me" is if i'm being compensated financially.  and the moment i'm off the clock, i'm gonna wear what I wanna wear.

i don't understand what you mean by "excessive intellectualization"?  am i not supposed to think about things and analyze them?  i don't understand how that's scary?

i'm pretty sure i don't have a problem with personal space, they eye contact thing is something i'm trying to learn.  body language is something i don't pick up on real well.

hmm, maybe i can get my inability to pick up on body language recognised as a disability, then i can start collecting disability checks 

as for why not get a hooker?  a) can't afford it  b) risking going to jail is not something i'm interested in c) i want to to be mutually pleasurable, i don't want a situation where she has an ulterior motive (eg money) - i want the hedonism to be mutual

the thing is fear.  fear is the obstacle i'm struggling to overcome, and i'm trying to minimse the fear by seeking advice on how to be bolder about meeting girls without doing so in an inappropriate manner.


----------



## Brennin Magalus

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> l
> as for why not get a hooker?  a) can't afford it  b) risking going to jail is not something i'm interested in c) i want to to be mutually pleasurable, i don't want a situation where she has an ulterior motive (eg money) - i want the hedonism to be mutual




You forgot d) it's wrong


----------



## Crothian

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i do try to bathe, shave, and use deodorant when i'm going to places i know girls might be.






Okay, you need to do this all the time.  Assume you might meet women everyday, anywhere you go.  Like it or not, women are everywhere.  Also, a lot of people meet through accident in unusual places.


----------



## Brennin Magalus

I think Hida should look for one of these:

_FFC, F.F.C., acronym, p.n.

Fat Fantasy Chick; used to refer to one of the ubiquitous overweight female gamers, typically not terribly in tune with reality, who exhibit a number of common characteristics; a love of Mercedes Lackey or Anne McCaffery; a noted prediliction for Faire and for Scottishness; chronic unicorn collecting; unswerving belief in Wicca or in psychic powers; and outspoken interest in sex despite the fact that no one is reciprocating.

Addendum: The FFC is also likely to be in an internet romance, and is almost certainly a furry. She is also usually a very irritating wicca-feminist personality, and is thought by some gamerpologists to be the female counterpart to the drooling fanboy. [LS]_

(From gamerjargon.com)


----------



## Brennin Magalus

Also from gamerjargon.com:

_"Elf needs sex, badly!" phrase
a reference to the sad sex lives of most gamers and fanboys; from "Elf needs food badly." [NJD]_


----------



## Torm

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> You forgot d) it's wrong



I can't say as I've ever really understood this one, myself. I mean, sure, the abusive male "role models" who may have damaged the young ladies' self-esteem, and _abusive_ pimps, and johns who hurt the prostitutes are all examples of people I activate my Holy Smite for.   But I can't say as I've ever understood the utter condemnation of the practice - seems to me that unless there's extenuating circumstances, it is a much more honest and honorable transaction than getting your taxes done frequently is. And if it is the fluid transfer or biological contact you find distasteful, well, you must have a dim view of dental assistants, too...   

And it isn't even illegal in Nevada, which isn't that far from Texas - if Hida hadn't already ruled it out, making this moot. And I'm pleased to see that he has - it indicates that he would like it to mean _something_, even if he's still torn between that and the typical Andrew-Dice-Clay-esque guy chatter. 

And as far as getting past the fear goes, Hida, who exactly is it who has convinced you that you are less than the people you want to talk to? Why isn't meeting YOU an honor you choose to bestow or not?


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i'm not going to change who i am and become a trendy, i despise the "fashion trend" crowd and all that they stand for.




One of the things they "stand for" is making themselves attractive to women.

What, you think you're the only guy who wouldn't _rather_ be wearing sweats and a t-shirt?



> i'm happy with "who i am" in this area.




Yes, but "who you are" is apparently "fat sloppy guy who's not getting any action," and you don't really want to be that.

I wish you all the best luck in the world, but believe me, if changing the way you dress is the least of the compromises you have to accept to achieve and maintain a relationship, count yourself lucky.

Wulf


----------



## Waylander the Slayer

Nifft? said it best; work on your self. You stated that you dont want to "conform"; that in itself is a derogatory remark to everyone else. There is one simple observation; happy, confident people attract others - men and women. The more you are truly happy, where you are secure in your appearance, persona and career the more you will get laid (and find love). 

As for what TB said, i don't think it is necessarily about being a jerk, but more about being a man and being in touch with your masculinity.  Women are attracted to strength; be it of character, physique or materiality. Strength as defined means contentment with who you are.

...Advice from someone who has been shy for the first sixteen years, a "Tef. Billy" jerk for the next nine years, complete for three years and married for the last five months.

P.S ...a sense o humor does not hurt - lighten up, enjoy your college life!


----------



## maddman75

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> looks:  i have a bit of a gut, which i'd like to get rid of, but that's probably not gonna happen
> unless they invent a way to do so without large chas investment or willpower (something which i have not been gifted with)
> 
> i do try to bathe, shave, and use deodorant when i'm going to places i know girls might be.
> 
> as for how i dress, i dress for comfort and convienience and to express my personality.  i express my personality through t-shirts that relate to my interests (not all of them are black either, though most are).  i'm not going to change who i am and become a trendy, i despise the "fashion trend" crowd and all that they stand for.  i'm happy with "who i am" in this area, the only way anyone's getting me to wear things that aren't "me" is if i'm being compensated financially.  and the moment i'm off the clock, i'm gonna wear what I wanna wear.




So you are defined by the clothes you put on?  If you put on something nice you aren't going to be you anymore?  Who would you be?  How would that person be any less real than the person you are now?  Self is an illusion my friend.



> i don't understand what you mean by "excessive intellectualization"?  am i not supposed to think about things and analyze them?  i don't understand how that's scary?




No, you aren't.  If you're thinking, you're desireing and hesitating.  Those are two things you don't want to do.  You need to *act*.  You need to say hi to a pretty girl, not because you've analyzed her body language, you've observed that she may be receptive, or that you've been wanting to talk to her for awhile now.  You say hi to her because you want to meet her.



> i'm pretty sure i don't have a problem with personal space, they eye contact thing is something i'm trying to learn.  body language is something i don't pick up on real well.




Only way to learn is practice.  One problem people with poor social skills have is that they lack the ability to *tell* that they have poor social skills.  At least you know that you have a problem and are willing to work to get better at it.  There are a lot of guys out there that think there isn't a thing wrong with how they interact, and convince themselves that women are evil and only like a-holes.  



> hmm, maybe i can get my inability to pick up on body language recognised as a disability, then i can start collecting disability checks
> 
> as for why not get a hooker?  a) can't afford it  b) risking going to jail is not something i'm interested in c) i want to to be mutually pleasurable, i don't want a situation where she has an ulterior motive (eg money) - i want the hedonism to be mutual
> 
> the thing is fear.  fear is the obstacle i'm struggling to overcome, and i'm trying to minimse the fear by seeking advice on how to be bolder about meeting girls without doing so in an inappropriate manner.




This is the root of the matter, the real problem.  It isn't eye contact, or what to say, or even how not to be creepy.  Its that you are afraid of what might happen.  This isn't unnatural - social interaction is an unknown, and it could go bad.  But it could go good too, very good.  Most times it goes to neither, really.

I have a challenge for you, if you're serious about learning to interact with others and approach women.  If you're on campus, I'm sure there's a ton of women around all the time.  When you walk past or see in the hallways or whatever a woman, look her in the eye and say hello or hi.  You don't need to have a conversation with her.  You don't care what she does - this isn't about her.  This is about you and your fear.  You are afraid that if you do something like this, she's going to freak out, yell, or have some other kind of horrid reaction.

Its NOT gonna happen!  If you do this ten times, and even one of them freaks out or makes some kind of scene, I will personally paypal you ten dollars.  I'd bet that a couple of them even smile and say hi back to you.

See if I'm wrong.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Having read this work before on the internet, this:



			
				die_kluge said:
			
		

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_1/102-1141849-3522530?v=glance&s=books Seriously.




is pretty much this:



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Ok, here is my advice, and I will tell you that every time this subject comes up, I ost this advice, and it always gets derided.
> 
> Don't listen to the derision.
> 
> The advice you have been given thus far in the thread will put you directly on the path to being the girl's "Good Friend". That means--in essence--no sex. IF that's what you are looking for, then great, go for it.
> 
> But if not, the following advice should serve you well, though it stands in stark contrast to just about everything that has been said in this thread thus far.
> 
> Ok, here we go.
> 
> *Be kind of a jerk*. Not a total jerk, just more arrogant than you would normally be. I have no idea why women go for this, but they do. In droves.




And it's golden advice.

Ultimately, women aren't looking for jerks, they are looking for confidence. 

(They just get confused-- and women who can't seem to get anything other than a jerk seem to me the perfect analog to the nice guys who can't get a date. They both, eventually, get walked all over.)

If you don't have confidence, _pretend you do_, even if it means faking it in very obvious ways-- like being a jerk. 

It really is that simple.

Eventually, you'll have real confidence-- and it honestly won't take that long.

And for what it's worth, my confidence-building, chit-chat-for-practice, cheesy-intro-line for a long time was (drumroll), "Nice shoes." 

It's not a line that's designed to "work" in any way other than forcing you to start a conversation with a woman, cold-- so as soon as you say it, it worked.


Wulf


----------



## Teflon Billy

Buttercup said:
			
		

> T-Bill, you're a rapscallion, you know that?





Know it? I am their _acknowledged leader_ (see Stone Angel's sig file)


----------



## mythago

Torm said:
			
		

> the thing that determines whether a situation is sexual harassment or not is whether or not she thinks the guy is cute.




Yes--ponder how much fun it would be to have your boss, who is drop-dead gorgeous, tell you that if you don't cheat on your wife/girlfriend/SO with her, she'll fire you so fast you'll bounce off the pavement. Or have her make disparaging comments about your looks in front of customers. Wouldn't be any big deal as long as she was really cute, right? 

Hida, dude, you're looking at this the wrong way around. The question is, why *should* girls give you the time of day, much less part of the night? What do you have to offer them? "They should go out with me because I want them to" is not gonna do it.

I dunno if Hida is real or not, but I hope some of our studio audience is paying attention. There's a lot of good advice in this thread.


----------



## Torm

mythago said:
			
		

> Yes--ponder how much fun it would be to have your boss, who is drop-dead gorgeous, tell you that if you don't cheat on your wife/girlfriend/SO with her, she'll fire you so fast you'll bounce off the pavement. Or have her make disparaging comments about your looks in front of customers. Wouldn't be any big deal as long as she was really cute, right?



With all due respect, you _might_ want to actually _read_ *all* of what someone said before pulling some of it _out of context_ to give a belligerent response to....



			
				Torm the True said:
			
		

> _*Not saying I agree*_, but it _is_ something to ponder.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> One of the things they "stand for" is making themselves attractive to women.
> 
> What, you think you're the only guy who wouldn't _rather_ be wearing sweats and a t-shirt?...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but "who you are" is apparently "fat sloppy guy who's not getting any action," and you don't really want to be that.
> 
> I wish you all the best luck in the world, but believe me, if changing the way you dress is the least of the compromises you have to accept to achieve and maintain a relationship, count yourself lucky.
> 
> Wulf




You know, I knew you were smart; I just had no idea _how_ smart



			
				Hida said:
			
		

> ....as for how i dress, i dress for comfort and convienience and to express my personality. i express my personality through t-shirts that relate to my interests (not all of them are black either, though most are)...




Slogan T-Shirts as an important reflection of your personality? Hida..._forget that_. This level of prode over something that is getting in the way of your goals is doing you no good at all.[/quote]



			
				Hida said:
			
		

> ...i'm not going to change who i am and become a trendy, i despise the "fashion trend" crowd and all that they stand for. i'm happy with "who i am" in this area, the only way anyone's getting me to wear things that aren't "me" is if i'm being compensated financially. and the moment i'm off the clock, i'm gonna wear what I wanna wear...




I will never understand the guys who think they ae somehow "Selling out" if they dress nicely and take care of themselves.

Hida, what is so magical about _financial_ compensation that it will get you to stop dressing like a gamer slob? 

Why doesn't the idea of female companionship stirr you to such action?


----------



## Obryn

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Wow, really?  You look perfectly ok now.    I don't know if you remember me from GenCon, but I never would have guessed.



Of course I remember you!  How could I ever forget? 

Yeah, I used to be absolutely gigantic.  At Gen Con, I was about 20 lbs heavier than my lightest, though.  I'm back on a diet now.



> It actually made me a tad nervous.  This is the sort of stuff that scary men do.



Scary and/or hopeless, yeah. 

-O


----------



## Teflon Billy

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Actually, I'm sure T-Bill's advice works with certain kinds of women.




I call that type _The Vast Majority_ 



> Not all of them, though.




generalizations are what allow us to discuss groups of people.



> I've always gone for the sweet, shy guys, in fact I married one.  My reaction to jerks ranges from fear to telling them to go **** themselves.






			
				Me said:
			
		

> ...And yes, there will always be a girl who post to a thread like this claiming that neither they, nor any girl they kow likes jerks at all. While I am certain that's true in their case(s), it is not statistically signifigant enough to offset the fact that nice guys finish last is a truism.
> 
> It just means that they and their friends are anomalies...


----------



## Obryn

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> looks:  i have a bit of a gut, which i'd like to get rid of, but that's probably not gonna happen
> unless they invent a way to do so without large chas investment or willpower (something which i have not been gifted with)



Then maybe you should work on getting some willpower.  As I mentioned, I was a huge fatass for a long time - 5'4", 270 lbs.  It was not pretty, and I'll post a picture sometime.  I don't have much willpower (or didn't), but I learned it damn quickly.  Saying you have no willpower is an excuse not to even try to improve yourself.



> i do try to bathe, shave, and use deodorant when i'm going to places i know girls might be.



No... this needs to be an every-day thing.  Not bathing every day possible = smelly and greasy.  Neither are attractive, and both are creepy.



> as for how i dress, i dress for comfort and convienience and to express my personality.  i express my personality through t-shirts that relate to my interests (not all of them are black either, though most are).  i'm not going to change who i am and become a trendy, i despise the "fashion trend" crowd and all that they stand for.  i'm happy with "who i am" in this area, the only way anyone's getting me to wear things that aren't "me" is if i'm being compensated financially.  and the moment i'm off the clock, i'm gonna wear what I wanna wear.



I think others have covered this pretty well, but that's just another lame excuse.  Nobody's asking you to stay on top of the latest trends or whatever.  But just wearing nicer clothes helps a lot.  A whole hell of a lot.  What you're doing is making excuses to be lazy and stay in your rut and trying to turn it into a point of pride.  I don't think the posters still active in this thread are going to let you get away with this.



> i don't understand what you mean by "excessive intellectualization"?  am i not supposed to think about things and analyze them?  i don't understand how that's scary?



If you don't think there's something scary about looking for an exact time in seconds how long eye contact is appropriate... and don't think the "relationship matrix" is childish and creepy...  Then you probably need more help than we can provide.

I'm a smart guy.  I'll put my various test scores and such up against anyone.  But one of the things I learned the hard way is that thinking too much is _bad for you_.



> the thing is fear.  fear is the obstacle i'm struggling to overcome, and i'm trying to minimse the fear by seeking advice on how to be bolder about meeting girls without doing so in an inappropriate manner.



Maybe it's fear.  Maybe it's some of these other things above, too.

You asked us how to not be creepy.  Nobody ever said it should be easy.

-O


----------



## Captain Tagon

maddman75 said:
			
		

> Its NOT gonna happen!  If you do this ten times, and even one of them freaks out or makes some kind of scene, I will personally paypal you ten dollars.  I'd bet that a couple of them even smile and say hi back to you.
> 
> See if I'm wrong.





Hey, this happens to me like 4-5 times a week at school.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Obryn said:
			
		

> ...What you're doing is making excuses to be lazy and stay in your rut and trying to turn it into a point of pride...




I wish I had phrased it like that.

What he said


----------



## Snoweel

Orblivia said:
			
		

> Be yourself, love that self, bathe regularly and strive to be your best. Really thats all anyone can ask and if she isnt into it keep it movin. Someone better for you will be there




Hey dude, I *dig* your advice!  

Wanna hook up at GenCon? I've got the Book of Erotic Fantasy...


----------



## megamania

When I saw this thread I thought it was a joke.

Some of you seem to be taking this VERY seriously.

Relax.

Every dog has his day.

As for advice-

don't push

If something is ment to occur it will.  Pushing ticks off most people (women included).  Be yourself and enjoy life.

If you feel this desperate then change little things.  Clothes, how you comb your hair.  It doesn't have to a drastic thing.  But it shows change and interest in change.  People notice and like this in general.


----------



## Captain Tagon

megamania said:
			
		

> If you feel this desperate then change little things.  Clothes, how you comb your hair.





What if you don't have hair?


----------



## trowizilla

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> looks:  i have a bit of a gut, which i'd like to get rid of, but that's probably not gonna happen
> unless they invent a way to do so without large chas investment or willpower (something which i have not been gifted with)




The "no willpower" thing is an excuse, plain and simple. You're being lazy, which is more of a turnoff than being overweight. Women are far more likely to overlook a few extra pounds than a "I'm not even going to try to fix something that bothers me" attitude. 



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i do try to bathe, shave, and use deodorant when i'm going to places i know girls might be.




Now, that's firmly in the realm of "creepy". Basic hygeine shouldn't depend on whether or not there will be girls in the area. It's very, very off-putting if you only take care of your body when there's someone you want to impress...that kind of thing should be automatic. And don't think that you can keep that kind of thing a secret, especially on campus: people know if you have a habit of not bathing, even if you never parade that under their noses. 



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> as for how i dress, i dress for comfort and convienience and to express my personality.  i express my personality through t-shirts that relate to my interests (not all of them are black either, though most are).  i'm not going to change who i am and become a trendy, i despise the "fashion trend" crowd and all that they stand for.  i'm happy with "who i am" in this area, the only way anyone's getting me to wear things that aren't "me" is if i'm being compensated financially.  and the moment i'm off the clock, i'm gonna wear what I wanna wear.




No one is telling you to be trendy: a few nice sweaters and clean, well-fitting pants will do wonders. Also, "message" t-shirts are okay once in a while, but they (a) label you as a shallow person and (b) are often snide or tacky. If you want people to get to know you, talk to them, but don't advertise yourself. Also, this may have been said before, but if changing your clothing is going to change who you are, well, who you are is not someone many people are going to want to know. The whole "my t-shirts are my only means of self-expression" is incredibly juvenile.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i don't understand what you mean by "excessive intellectualization"?  am i not supposed to think about things and analyze them?  i don't understand how that's scary?




It's scary because you're looking for a formula to deal with people, who are not variables in an equation. This isn't (optimum number of seconds of eye contact) + (jerk or nice guy attitude) = make-out session. The "relationship matrix" is even worse. And the "I want to kiss someone before graduation" absolutely reeks of desperation: not only do you have an equation, but you've got a deadline too. 

I hate to say it, but you do come off as quite creepy to me, as well as very immature, and that's from mere online contact. Your perfect world lets you proposition a woman for rather intimate physical contact without knowing a thing about her, moving on to the next if the first turns you down. You seem to have a "I want a girl, any girl" attitude; no one's going to be attracted to you if you're only interested because they've got matching chromosomes. Get one of those plastic blow-up dolls if all you care about is someone's orifices. 

My advice is to give up for a while on dating/making out/whatever, and to focus merely on learning to deal with females/people in general as friends and acquaintances. Women, after all, are not here simply as potential make-out partners for you, so get to know them as people first. The best ways to do this that _I_ know are getting involved in campus activities, chatting with people in your classes, and smiling/being polite and friendly to everyone you meet. Do not in any way attempt to resemble Comic Book Guy from the Simpsons: don't be a know-it-all or self-righteous, and for heaven's sake, find non-geekish interests. Definitely forget this whole "I despise (x) crowd and all that they stand for". It's middle-school-ish and judgemental. Above all, don't whine about having no willpower or not living in a perfect world; blech. 

Women almost never go for guys who whine, don't bathe regularly, never got out of middle school, and/or treat women as variables or chunks of meat.


----------



## pogre

I got a lot of mileage out of being a rude a** when I was single. It's been said repeatedly because it's true -  confidence sells period.

Here's a somewhat novel piece of advice I think:

Date an ugly woman. She does not have to be troll-ugly, just plain and unattractive physically. You have got to get in the game man, and having a few dates will give you confidence.

Here's an old piece of advice:

Get in the weightroom and watch your diet. If you do not care about your body why should someone of the opposite sex?

Finally:

Being yourself is obviously not working - try being someone else - and whatever you do don't directly mention gaming.

After reading all of the previous posts - Teflon Billy has the ticket. How many "nice" guys had the hottest girl in your highschool OR was it the jerk...


----------



## Captain Tagon

pogre said:
			
		

> After reading all of the previous posts - Teflon Billy has the ticket. How many "nice" guys had the hottest girl in your highschool OR was it the jerk...






And how many of the jerks end up in the lifelong commited and rewarding relationships where they get to wake up every morning next to the lady that is to them the single most amazing human being anywhere on planet earth?


----------



## Teflon Billy

Captain Tagon said:
			
		

> And how many of the jerks end up in the lifelong commited and rewarding relationships where they get to wake up every morning next to the lady that is to them the single most amazing human being anywhere on planet earth?




Right here. 

So one at least

What that has to do with this thread is debatable. I'm pretty sure that Hida has explained that this is not the goal he is seeking.


----------



## Captain Tagon

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Right here.
> 
> So one at least
> 
> What that has to do with this thread is debatable. I'm pretty sure that Hida has explained that this is not the goal he is seeking.





True, but I make my points where I can, even if they fail. Congrats to you by the way.

As for talking to girls, I think the best thing to do is not go in with the mindset of "hitting on them". The tends to kind of objectify the girl in your mind which is something the girl, or at least her friends, can usually spot. 

And be confident. You're cool, you're worth spending time with.


----------



## Humanophile

Captain Tagon said:
			
		

> And how many of the jerks end up in the lifelong commited and rewarding relationships where they get to wake up every morning next to the lady that is to them the single most amazing human being anywhere on planet earth?




The jerks get to wake up to a rotating selection of beautiful women.  Some might see never having to be called out to the opera, take care of the kids, or put up with her bad moods as an upside.

And Hida, I'm going to call you out here.  If you want to make any progress, you're going to have to swallow your pride, put off your hopes of this effort-free quickie, and actually learn how to be sociable.  If you're willing to invest the effort, you'll be able to initiate conversations in no time flat; it gets easier with each time until it's second nature to you.  If all you want to do is defend the way things are, you can continue the same tricks with the same results.

Now, you can keep defending yourself, and hope your Eagle's Splendor spell works.  Or you can invest the time and effort required to be properly sociable.  But please show us some signs you're at least trying to improve, or this thread will just be your own one-man freak show.


----------



## Buttercup

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> I think there is a difference between pointing that out and actually suggesting it.



We'll have to agree to disagree, then.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal

pogre said:
			
		

> How many "nice" guys had the hottest girl in your highschool OR was it the jerk...




I was the nice guy, and I dated some of the cutest girls in school.


----------



## mythago

Humanophile said:
			
		

> The jerks get to wake up to a rotating selection of beautiful women.




You know, having known a lot of successful jerks, I can't say I'd call the women they date 'beautiful'. Traditionally good-looking, I guess, in the sense that they spend a lot of time on their nails and diet and all that, but beautiful? Not really.

The jerks do get to date a lot of needy, high-maintenance women, I've noticed.

And I'd like to have a dollar for every 'nice' guy who whines he can't get a date, while he chases after a handful of psychowitches and leaves his perfectly attractive, perfectly nice-girl friends sitting on the sidelines.


----------



## The_Universe

A general note: 

A T-shirt (no matter how witty or comfortable) is a t-shirt, not a personality. A t-shirt is not expression, it is clothing. To confuse the two automatically informs people _not_ of the witty message and carefully chosen fashion statement, but instead that you'd rather let a cartoon character, or a dragon, or whatever "talk" to them, rather than talk to them yourself. 

Clothes do not make the man, but they can un-make him. Make yourself, not your clothes, the messenger for everything you want the world to know about you. If your clothes are _you, _how much of _you_ really exists without them? You've got a personality independent of that Penny-Arcade shirt!  

It helps.

EDIT: You don't need to run out to J-crew and drop a grand on all the latest fashions.  But you _do _need clothes that fit your physical form, and perhaps even flatter it.  As a fat dude,  I can relate to the idea that finding clothes to "flatter" isn't easy - but it's possible, and an absolute necessity.  Just having a couple of pairs of jeans or khakis, a couple of non-message t-shirts, and a few sweaters and shirts from Sears will do wonders.  

Chicks don't like sweatpants.  Hell - nobody likes sweatpants.  Sweatpants are the _devil_.  Save a pair to sleep in, burn the rest.


----------



## devilish

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Sweatpants are the _devil_.




HEY HEY HEY ...... you're insulting us devils.  We hate sweatpants too!!!


----------



## d20Dwarf

It's funny all the rationalization that goes on by the non-jerks..."jerks only date HOT chicks, but have they ever married an average one?" Life's not always like the movies, the jerks don't always get their comeuppance. I just got engaged to someone that couldn't stand me the first time we met because I was being a chauvinistic jerk. She couldn't stand me so much that she couldn't wait to be around me again...and again. Now over 4 years later and we're still together...sure, I've mellowed out a bit, but we all have to make sacrifices, eh? 

Hida isn't looking for a wife, and neither was I, which is why the advice is good. Teflon Billy knows what he's talking about.


----------



## Drakmar

One of the plus sides I have found to buying "fashionable" clothes is that you can go to a trendy store... walk in.. up to the cute little sales girl.. and say.. Hi.. I am trying to look good.. can you help me pick some stuff out.  And I have found many of the shop girls quite like the confident yet helpless thing.  (confident enough to walk up and say.. I don't know what looks good. etc.)

I do this cause I get to flirt with the girl.. and usually end up with some nice clothes.

Plus.. another thing to I have found.. when I where a suit.. I feel good.  I look good.  therefore I am confident.  So I basically transferred the same view to my "relaxing" clothes.. I wear trendy clothes that make me look good.  I don't wear the ones that make me look like a chode.


----------



## Desdichado

Xath said:
			
		

> The complement "nice shoes" has a following phrase that would offend Eric's Grandma.



I thought we were saying this to a woman, not a man...


----------



## The_Universe

d20Dwarf said:
			
		

> It's funny all the rationalization that goes on by the non-jerks..."jerks only date HOT chicks, but have they ever married an average one?" Life's not always like the movies, the jerks don't always get their comeuppance. I just got engaged to someone that couldn't stand me the first time we met because I was being a chauvinistic jerk. She couldn't stand me so much that she couldn't wait to be around me again...and again. Now over 4 years later and we're still together...sure, I've mellowed out a bit, but we all have to make sacrifices, eh?
> 
> Hida isn't looking for a wife, and neither was I, which is why the advice is good. Teflon Billy knows what he's talking about.



 Also very true.  Who better to tell you what clothes chicks think you look good in than a chick?


----------



## Orblivia

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Much wisdom.





i would say manbabies but that wouldnt work...so I will say you are my personal jesus for today


----------



## Orblivia

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> looks:  i have a bit of a gut, which i'd like to get rid of, but that's probably not gonna happen
> unless they invent a way to do so without large chas investment or willpower (something which i have not been gifted with)
> 
> i do try to bathe, shave, and use deodorant when i'm going to places i know girls might be.
> 
> as for how i dress, i dress for comfort and convienience and to express my personality.  i express my personality through t-shirts that relate to my interests (not all of them are black either, though most are).  i'm not going to change who i am and become a trendy, i despise the "fashion trend" crowd and all that they stand for.  i'm happy with "who i am" in this area, the only way anyone's getting me to wear things that aren't "me" is if i'm being compensated financially.  and the moment i'm off the clock, i'm gonna wear what I wanna wear.




Ok a couple of things here resonated...I will start with the clothes...since I often feel the same way. I wear what I like to wear. Always have (jeans and t shirts to whatev else). So I alwayed ended up being one of the guys, and that was mostly fine with me. But when I would be interested in someone they would view me instead as their buddy. So I wanting to snag this particular hottie (who is still my babylove nearly 3 years later    ) I spiffed it up a bit. He noticed. Now I didnt fly out to jacob and whatever else hip and trendy place and buy them out. I went out bought a pair of jeans that fit (i always wear a few sizes too big) and a nice top. 65 dollars and now I had my hunting duds. Of course I LIKED the reaction I got from said duds, so I as I could I picked up a bit more. Now I rarely wear jeans and t shirts but I never wear things I find uncomfortable, not functional or just stupid. So my style is still my own, (you wont ever mistake be for going clubbing at NV) it has been upgraded. Make sense? So your not selling out but refining who you are. And really I now like dressing this way, I feel better, i want to look nice so I work out more, and really he appreciates that I put some effort into my appearance. 65 dollars well spent

Now as to the other two things i quoted...

There is no try only do when it comes to bathing. Ever day without fail. You dont know when you may meet Mrs Right or Miss Righ Now dont get caught wearing the stankpants.

The willpower thing...perhaps join a martial art or yoga, both are very good for focusing the mind and my help you dig deep and find more of your own willpower.

Best of luck


----------



## Orblivia

Snoweel said:
			
		

> Hey dude, I *dig* your advice!
> 
> Wanna hook up at GenCon? I've got the Book of Erotic Fantasy...




*runs screaming*

No Snowy. *LOL*

I dont want to roll for climax thanks.

See Hida...THAT was creepy


----------



## maddman75

Now a couple people are kind of being hard on Hida, and he doesn't deserve it.  He's at least got the guts to recognize that there's a problem with him, instead of railing at how unfair the world is.

The clothes are but a symptom of his fear.  They are a convienent excuse for him not to change, for we all fear change greatly.  Most people would, on a subconscous level, rather stay the same and be miserable than change and be happy.  Deal with the fear, and the issue about clothing will evaporate.

And there's nothing wrong with gaming.  I can describe gaming in a way that makes me seem cool, intelligent, and creative.  But it sure isn't the first thing out of my mouth either - blathering on about your sophmoric mastubatory power fulfilment character isn't going to score any points.  Just has to be framed in the right way.


----------



## d20Dwarf

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Also very true.  Who better to tell you what clothes chicks think you look good in than a chick?




I almost never go shopping without a woman, be it girlfriend, friend, or even my sister. It's just common sense. 



			
				orblivia said:
			
		

> And really I now like dressing this way, I feel better,




This is how it happened for me. Once I realized that I look and feel better when I wear something other than t-shirts, shorts, and jeans, I haven't turned back. That's not to say I still don't wear them, because I do, just not in any social situation that I think I'll need to be "up" for. Heck, the only reason I wore t-shirts at Gencon last year was corporate mandate (damn you Direkobold.com! oops, was that a plug? ).


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis

Orblivia said:
			
		

> There is no try only do when it comes to bathing. Ever day without fail. You dont know when you may meet Mrs Right or Miss Righ Now dont get caught wearing the stankpants.




Hehehehe... there is something WILDLY entertaining about the word "stankpants"    

However, I must say - *ESPECIALLY  *  if you are looking to get laid, the shower and shave EVERY DAY is the most important thing.  

When I check out guys, the first thing I notice is the status of their hair and their shaving habits.  If a man does not have clean, groomed (or sexy-messy) hair and a smooth face/well groomed facial hair there is NO WAY that I would even give him the time of day.  

Only after you have established a solid relationship can you let the shaving lapse and, even then, you still need to shower everyday if you expect to get laid.

So far as clothes go - gaming tee's can easily be really, really creepy if you are attempting to attract a woman that is not a gamer.  As a woman that is relatively new to the game, I can say that shirts with dragons, dice, swords, beholders, elves, or any other tellingly nerdy object = instant creep out.

Now, several years later, I love gaming and all the nerdry that surrounds it and so those things do not creep me out... but, there was a time when something like that = RUN AWAY.  Coming to accept the nerdy black shirt is a gradual process that, once again, is best served by a full-time girlfriend and not a quick screw.

I'm not saying to change who you are and leap onto the trend wagon, but a few nice shirts/sweaters (which do not have to be "trendy" - it is more important to be classic*) go a very, very LONG way.

*Feel free to ask The_Universe about this.  He is not trendy - in fact, he goes to great lengths to insure that he does *not* hop onto that rumbling choo-choo of fashion.  But, he manages to be well-groomed and incredibly dashing despite this fact.


----------



## Droid101

This thread just keeps getting better and better.

I love you guys.


----------



## Captain Tagon

Maybe it's being a part of the underground music scene, but girls I know definately seem to go more for the jeans and T-shirts guys than anyone else. Sure I like to look nice sometimes, but honestly when I'm wearing khakis and a button up shirt the kind of girls I'm interested in don't even look my way but I throw on some grungy looking jeans and a band or thrift store T-shirt and almost any of them seem happy to see me. 

Basically, just figure out what kind of girl you're going after what they want in a guy. And seriously, shower regularly. I'm not as much a stickler on shaving since with shaving my head and face both it takes a while so I'll let it go for a few days at a time, but showering is very very important. Unless you are my old room mate who didn't sweat at all and could not take a shower for ten days and still get girls left and right, by being the nicest most non-jerk guy ever.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal

I want it recorded for posterity that the word "stankpants" nearly made me choke to death on my Mt. Dew.

Gawd, that was funny.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

mythago said:
			
		

> And I'd like to have a dollar for every 'nice' guy who whines he can't get a date, while he chases after a handful of psychowitches and leaves his perfectly attractive, perfectly nice-girl friends sitting on the sidelines.




Deftly illustrating the underlying strength of the jerk method:

It's human nature to pursue most aggressively _what you can't have_.

That's why being nice usually doesn't work-- nice guys are boring and no challenge.


----------



## devilish

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Deftly illustrating the underlying strength of the jerk method:
> 
> It's human nature to pursue most aggressively _what you can't have_.
> 
> That's why being nice usually doesn't work-- nice guys are boring and no challenge.




True --- I personally think it's subconciously.. "Hmm...this guy's a nice guy, but
if we run into trouble (aka get mugged) he might fold.  If we have relationship
problems, he'll fold."

as opposed to :

"Hmm...this guy's a jerk --- if someone were to mug me/hit on me in a bar, he'd
come down on him like a ton of bricks.  (my hero!) ... and if we have
some relationship problems, he'll stand up to me in case I'm wrong or I 
need some pushback/tough love...."


----------



## Desdichado

Well, I'm not exactly a Don Juan or anything like that, but my wife certainly didn't hook up with me because of my jerkiness.

Then again, anyone who's read my posts here and there probably knows that I'm not exactly Mr. Nice Guy all the time either.  I think the comment earlier that jerkiness=success is really a misplaced confidence=success descriptor.

And I think the bottom of all this discussion is blindingly simple, albeit hardly easy.  If you want to hit on girls and not come across as creepy, stop being so creepy.


----------



## Captain Tagon

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> Well, I'm not exactly a Don Juan or anything like that, but my wife certainly didn't hook up with me because of my jerkiness.
> 
> Then again, anyone who's read my posts here and there probably knows that I'm not exactly Mr. Nice Guy all the time either.  I think the comment earlier that jerkiness=success is really a misplaced confidence=success descriptor.
> 
> And I think the bottom of all this discussion is blindingly simple, albeit hardly easy.  If you want to hit on girls and not come across as creepy, stop being so creepy.





And we have a winner folks.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis

Joshua Dyal said:
			
		

> And I think the bottom of all this discussion is blindingly simple, albeit hardly easy.  If you want to hit on girls and not come across as creepy, stop being so creepy.




  Amen!


----------



## Angcuru

I can't believe that it took 9 pages to get to that simple truth.


----------



## Orblivia

Angcuru said:
			
		

> I can't believe that it took 9 pages to get to that simple truth.





Yea but the over arching question fellas was "HOW DO I NOT BE CREEPY"

he know NOT being creepy is good, he doesnt know how.

Hence 9 pages.


----------



## Buttercup

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i do try to bathe, shave, and use deodorant when i'm going to places i know girls might be.



  Here's a big part of your problem.  Bathe, shave and use deodorant every day.  Without fail.  Hygiene isn't optional.



> i don't understand what you mean by "excessive intellectualization"? am i not supposed to think about things and analyze them? i don't understand how that's scary?



 Trust me, it's scary.  Human interaction isn't supposed to work according to a chart--it's supposed to be spontaneous.  Counselling, dude.  Your university probably provides it to students for free.



> body language is something i don't pick up on real well.



  Did I mention you need counselling?  Honest.  This is not normal, and you need to see if someone can help you fix it.  You'll be much happier if you go and talk to someone about your issues.



> the thing is fear. fear is the obstacle i'm struggling to overcome, and i'm trying to minimse the fear by seeking advice on how to be bolder about meeting girls without doing so in an inappropriate manner.



I understand that.  However, your tendency to over-intellectualize, and your use of D&D alignment as though it's real, and the fact that you have had problems with some basic aspects of human interaction, and your lack of dedication to personal hygiene combine into a barrier that is far more of a hindrance to you than your fear.  Because even if you wake up tomorrow feeling brave, if you don't fix the other stuff, you're going to have trouble getting a date.

There is no shame in getting counselling.  It will never in your life be cheaper than while you're a college student.  Do yourself a favor and seek help.


----------



## Obryn

Buttercup said:
			
		

> I understand that. However, your tendency to over-intellectualize, and your use of D&D alignment as though it's real, and the fact that you have had problems with some basic aspects of human interaction, and your lack of dedication to personal hygiene combine into a barrier that is far more of a hindrance to you than your fear. Because even if you wake up tomorrow feeling brave, if you don't fix the other stuff, you're going to have trouble getting a date.



Buttercup...

Have I told you recently I love you? 

-O


----------



## Obryn

maddman75 said:
			
		

> And there's nothing wrong with gaming.  I can describe gaming in a way that makes me seem cool, intelligent, and creative.  But it sure isn't the first thing out of my mouth either - blathering on about your sophmoric mastubatory power fulfilment character isn't going to score any points.  Just has to be framed in the right way.



Maddman, I know we agree on this one, so don't take this as a criticism of you or your post.   It's just a point I want to make, and you just built me a soapbox!

_And_ this seems like a good chance to make half of ENWorld hate me, all in one fell swoop!

There's a big difference between _gaming_ and _being a gamer_.  Gaming is ... well, not _precisely_ cool, but people who game can definitely get dates.  It's a fun hobby if you don't let it take over your life, and a good way to spend a few hours with friends and drink a few beers.

Then there's gamers.  I'm positive you know some.  Maybe you are one yourself.  These are the people whose lives revolve around role-playing and might be kinda lost outside of a game.  You know, the kind of people who might describe themselves as "chaotic good" or think of others in terms of what character class they'd be.  (And not just as a party joke, either.)

Hida sounds to me more like a gamer.  Not a good gamer, either (and there are plenty).  A stereotypical gamer.  A not-bathing, shabby-dressing, socially inept, potentially smelly, black-tee-wearing, telling-me-about-his-character-for-20-minutes, overintellectualizing, creepy, arrogant, lazy gamer.

Gamers can get dates - though mostly this is with other gamers.  _There's nothing wrong with this._  Let's face it, though.  Male gamers outnumber female gamers by a huge margin, and most female gamers will find they have the pick of the litter.  So the female gamers get the cream of the male gamer crop, and the rest of the gamers get left out in the cold.  (Unless they know one of those creepy polyamorous gamer queen bees...)

*Nobody's saying don't game.*  At least, _I'm_ not.  However, if what you are looking for is a date or a screw, and prostitutes aren't an option, you have 2 options as I see it.  (1) Stay a gamer, but be one of the good gamers who can function in the outside world and who has good hygiene.  Basically, be the cream of the gamer crop and date/hook up with nice gamer girls. Or (2) Keep gaming, but don't be a _gamer._  Find things in the world outside of polyhedrals and pencils that keep your interest.

Either way, it's a long, hard road.  And Hida needs to kind of acknowledge that he may need to go through some changes before he can get some dates.  He's been bemoaning his lack of success but has rebuffed almost every piece of advice anyone has given him so far.  Hygeine, clothing, and (as buttercup suggested) counseling may be good starting points.

-O


----------



## Desdichado

Obryn said:
			
		

> Buttercup...
> 
> Have I told you recently I love you?



She had me with "I can read Old English..."


----------



## Buttercup

Aw, you guys.


----------



## Three_Haligonians

Hmm, I always feel compeled to respond to these kind of questions....

Honestly, I was a very awkward young woman in junior and high school and I found asking men out to be just as difficult.  Loads of guys I liked wouldn't give me the time of day (I don't think anyone has gone through life withought being rejected) and the idea of asking someone on a date made me so nervous I'm sure I came across as creepy on more than one occasion.  Then, one day, I just woke up and thought to myself "WhO CARES"?  I was so tired of trying to be not ...well, creepy, I guess....that I was being creepy!  So I wen't out to have fun, not necessarily to pick up, and I found things got much easier.  Men who liked me for who I actually was seemed to come out of the woodwork, and they were men that I liked (wow, doesn't take a genius to figure out why THAT happened).

Anyways, eventually I found an ideal mate and we've been going out for several years.  I've been known to skip the occasional shower and NEITHER of us shave on a regular basis....big deal!   

Hope that is helpful in some way,

T from Three Haligonians


----------



## Dark Jezter

Trying to get girls to like you, eh?  Well, I might not be raking in as much tail as Colin Farrell, but I've dated a few girls in my day.  Here are a few tips from me, even though some of them have already been gone over.

*Chicks dig confidence:*  There are perhaps eight women in the world's entire female population who think that shyness and insecurity are sexy.  All other women are looking for a guy who won't freeze up and panic when approached by a member of the opposite gender.

*Try to make yourself presentable:*  This has been mentioned many times already, but it can't be mentioned enough.  Bathe or shower every day, put on deodarant, brush your teeth, comb your hair, don't pick your nose or pop your zits in public, shave (or if you insist on having facial hair, make sure it's neatly trimmed), wear clean clothes, and make sure that said clothing matches and isn't _too_ out of style.  Staying in shape won't hurt either.

*Don't agree with everything she says:*  If you agree with everything she says and jump to her every request, you'll never become more than the guy she uses as a shoulder to cry on, or in the event that you _do_ get involved with her, she'll be walking all over you for the entire relationship.  Show some independence and don't be afraid to disagree with her on things.

*Don't go overboard on the first date:*  A simple lunch is great for a first date; if things don't work out, you've only wasted an hour and a few bucks.

*You will encounter rejection:*  Some girls you ask out will already have boyfriends, and some just plain won't be interested.  When that happens, just smile, say "No problem", and walk away.  Do not act hurt or disappointed because that will just make you look pathetic.

Like I said, mostly stuff that's been gone over already.


----------



## Droid101

Obryn said:
			
		

> teh truth
> -O



Ninja.  My ninja.


----------



## Angcuru

Droid101 said:
			
		

> Ninja.  My ninja.



Kinda like _Captain, my captain!_ but with a ninja instead?


----------



## Droid101

Angcuru said:
			
		

> Kinda like _Captain, my captain!_ but with a ninja instead?



Indeed.

I haven't seen you at Nothingland v3.xvx.  Where you been hiding?


----------



## Obryn

Droid101 said:
			
		

> Ninja.  My ninja.



Awww, thanks.   

I'm surprised - so far nobody's throwing feces at me.

-O


----------



## The_Universe

Obryn said:
			
		

> Awww, thanks.
> 
> I'm surprised - so far nobody's throwing feces at me.
> 
> -O



 Maybe they're just missing when they throw?


----------



## msd

All I know after reading this thread...

My hate of stankpants knows no limit.


----------



## Obryn

The_Universe said:
			
		

> Maybe they're just missing when they throw?



Well, I _am_ pretty short...  And currently surrounded by a cubicle...

-O


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

ok.... today i was at taco bell, and there was a girl there she smiled at me and said hi from across the room.  i said hi and smiled but was too scared to approach her and try to flirt with her (she was there alone as was i).  

why?  cause i was worried she might be underage and that people would think i'm some kind of pervert or something...

but now i feel like i blew a chance to talk to a really cute girl...

is my fear reasonable?  is there an accepted way of asking a girl if she's old enough to be flirted with or not?


----------



## Crothian

of course there is an acceptible way to ask, inquire if she's in college or what classes she is taking.  and while it is a missed chance, it is not like you only get X amount.


----------



## Queen_Dopplepopolis

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> ok.... today i was at taco bell, and there was a girl there she smiled at me and said hi from across the room.  i said hi and smiled but was too scared to approach her and try to flirt with her (she was there alone as was i).
> 
> why?  cause i was worried she might be underage and that people would think i'm some kind of pervert or something...
> 
> but now i feel like i blew a chance to talk to a really cute girl...
> 
> is my fear reasonable?  is there an accepted way of asking a girl if she's old enough to be flirted with or not?



 I can't say that I would be offended if a guy just asked me how old I was... 

However, in that situation, if you just went and said hello it would be pretty easy to figure out how old she is based on innocent questions like, "What's your major?" and, if she answers, "Oh, I'm still in high school," it'd be totally appropriate to say, "Goodness, I thought you were older!" smile and cut the convo short.


----------



## Humanophile

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> ok.... today i was at taco bell, and there was a girl there she smiled at me and said hi from across the room.  i said hi and smiled but was too scared to approach her and try to flirt with her (she was there alone as was i).
> 
> why?  cause i was worried she might be underage and that people would think i'm some kind of pervert or something...
> 
> but now i feel like i blew a chance to talk to a really cute girl...
> 
> is my fear reasonable?  is there an accepted way of asking a girl if she's old enough to be flirted with or not?




First, at your age, so long as she's post-pubescent she's old enough to be _flirted_ with.  Your goal right now should be playful conversation.  People don't pay enough attention to really notice that a twenty year old is talking to a sixteen year old or whatever.

Second, and more importantly.  Try to remember this as your mantra next time you're in a situation like this.  Will you ever see any of the people in that Taco Bell again?  Odds are pretty good that you won't be socializing with any of them unless you make a point of it to.  So remind yourself that you'll get practice chatting up girls, probably have a nice time, and maybe make a new friend.  All those positives vs. the risk of looking odd in front of people you'll never have to deal with.  (And trust me, the risk is far less than you think it is.)  Remind yourself that next time you need to bolster your nerve.

(You probably come off as nice and nebbishy, the "good friend not the boyfriend" type.  For the moment, ignore Teflon Billy's advice and come across as you are.  You won't get action, but you'll likely have a pleasant conversation.  Early on, you can even admit "I'm not used to talking to girls".  As you build your people skills and confidence by seeing that people can actually enjoy talking to you, that's when you begin to position yourself for more.)

Finally, the age issue.  Like I said above, so long as she doesn't look thirteen or so you can go up and talk to her.  Some time during the conversation you can ask her age, either indirectly ("so where do you go to school?") or directly.  When one of you has to go, if you've enjoyed the conversation and if she's old enough, you can ask if you can get ahold of her some time in the future.  There's no law against having a conversation with a young'un, and if she looks like she's probably old enough to you other people will probably assume the same if they see you chatting her up.


----------



## Torm

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> why?  cause i was worried she might be underage and that people would think i'm some kind of pervert or something...




"I'd like an order of fries,
a Quarter-Pounder with Cheese.
I love the light in your eyes.
Will you go out with me, please?"
 - _McDonald's Girl_ by The Blenders (also covered by Barenaked Ladies in concert)

You'll want to be careful when chatting up women where they work that you don't do it in a fashion that causes them work problems, and also, be sure before talking to her that you're prepared to not go to that Taco Bell for a while. Other than that, I wouldn't worry about people thinking you're a pervert just for talking to her. I think younger, single men are kind of _expected_ to be a little, by most people with any sense.  

P.S. I am not a lawyer, so advice is worth what was paid for it   , but in Texas the age of consent is 17, not 18, and regardless, unless you end up having a REAL bad day with the wrong parents or officers of the law, authorities tend to ignore situations with less than 4 years of difference in age between the parties involved. Just some stuff to bear in mind that may or may not apply.

P.P.S. I _love_ cranking the Blenders' version of the above song while waiting for my food or change at a fast food drive thru.


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

yeah, but i'm 27


----------



## Teflon Billy

This thing is starting to smell like _a work_ :\


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

nope, i only wish it was a work.  i took a long time to finish college, and two and a half years off working at a movie theatre while living with my parents.

i've recently deconverted from religious fundamentalism, and living in the insular subculture where people tell you that "waiting on god's timing" is the way to get a girl, and thinking i had to be married before i got to experience anything has left me kind of behind in the life experience department, especially when you throw emotional immaturity into the mix.


----------



## Torm

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i've recently deconverted from religious fundamentalism, and living in the insular subculture where people tell you that "waiting on god's timing" is the way to get a girl, and thinking i had to be married before i got to experience anything has left me kind of behind in the life experience department, especially when you throw emotional immaturity into the mix.



Well.... ya _have_ tried yer church social to meet women? Surely, ya have?


----------



## DeadlyUematsu

The fact that this topic was even brought up reminds me why I pulled out of the "dating" scene. I got better things to do than play emotionally destructive games with potentially disastrous economical and social outcomes. 

Anyway, a lot of the advice given here is outdated, won't work, and is embarrassingly half-hearted. Hida, if you are going to pursue this path, do a search for Tom Leykis. You'll find his advice much more useful but personally I would rather pick up a new hobby or sport (like watercolor or rugby). Consider doing the same.

[Edit: Heh. Looked up 'fatalistic'. Serves me right.]


----------



## Darkness

DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> potentially *fatalistic* economical and social outcomes.



 Potentially predetermined (by fate) and thus unalterable economical and social outcomes? Say what?


----------



## Torm

DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> Anyway, a lot of the advice given here is outdated, won't work, and is embarrassingly half-hearted.



Well, now, how rude. I may have _disagreed_ with others' given advice, but I certainly wouldn't have suggested that it was given half-heartedly....



			
				DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> I would rather pick up a new hobby or sport (like watercolor or rugby). Consider doing the same.



Yes. Check these guys out, too. I mean, if you're _going_ to be alone for a while, you may as well at least find a noble cause to tell yourself it is _for_.


----------



## DeadlyUematsu

Torm said:
			
		

> Well, now, how rude. I may have _disagreed_ with others' given advice, but I certainly wouldn't have suggested that it was given half-heartedly....




I was making a generalization because I was referring to a broad body of advisors. Sorry I couldn't grade everyone seperately.



> Yes. Check these guys out, too. I mean, if you're _going_ to be alone for a while, you may as well at least find a noble cause to tell yourself it is _for_.




Heh. Yeah, I seemed to come off that way. Nonetheless, there's a difference between finding a partner and refusing to date. I refuse the latter because I don't need it for the former.


----------



## Crothian

DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> Anyway, a lot of the advice given here is outdated, won't work, and is embarrassingly half-hearted.




You do realize how entirely unhelpful that comment is?  There are a few pages of advice, and your saying that most is not worth it, but you aren't willing to point out what is good and what is bad.  

The fact is the advice is all good, just not for everyone.  With billions of people in the world there is no single advice that applies to all, and proablty no single bit of advice that applies to none of them.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Hida, this isn't a dig, it's an honest question.

Do you have *Asperger's Syndrome*?

You might want to get checked.


----------



## Crothian

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Hida, this isn't a dig, it's an honest question.
> 
> Do you have *Asperger's Syndrome*?
> 
> You might want to get checked.




I had to google that one.  Never heard of it, but it is interesting.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Crothian said:
			
		

> I had to google that one.  Never heard of it, but it is interesting.




Yeah, it isn't super-common, but a guy in my hometown suffered from it--and was a total reject--but with counselling he managed to gecome a_lot_ more fucntional.

He was seriously wierd to be around. Constantly going on trying to "quantify" all manner of things rather than just learning them organically.

 I recall him taking a different friend of ours to task because he was dating a girl whom he had "rated" lower than some others (like "she's a 10" type ratings) and he found it just incomprehensible that if you thought someone was a ten, why you would be dating a girl who was seven.

He could neither understand it, nor shut up about it...and it was one of many things like that.

Hida's behaviour in this thread (numbered seconds of eye contact, that "Graph" etc) all rings a little familiar.

I'm no doctor, so certainly don't take my word for it, but I see what I see.


----------



## tarchon

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> why?  cause i was worried she might be underage and that people would think i'm some kind of pervert or something...
> 
> but now i feel like i blew a chance to talk to a really cute girl...
> 
> is my fear reasonable?  is there an accepted way of asking a girl if she's old enough to be flirted with or not?




Being able to pin down an age within a couple years is pretty essential to being a single guy in our culture. Practice. Many women are not offended by age questions, but a few are really offended, so I'd try to avoid it. Generally though, if you think she's under 18, chances are she is. On the other hand, there's no law against a friendly chat either, and, at least in a Taco Bell, you don't want to start in with the actual chatting up until you've got a basic idea who you're talking to and until you can tell whether she's into it. The initial innocent conversation is only a significant faux pas if there happens to be a parent* or boyfriend (or girlfriend) hanging around, and naturally you've done the PB(G) scan before any of this happens. If you're an experienced single guy, you've almost subconsciously been tracking everyone in the vicinity since you arrived in order to determine their relationships to potential dateables.

The rules are different in a pick-up spot like a bar though - you can advance the chatting up considerably if there's a social presumption of receptiveness. On the flip side, certain environments require a higher standard of receptiveness indication, like you don't chat up people who are at work (waitstaff, prostitutes, police officers, judges, etc.) or people in captive situations (airplanes, family reunions, GenCon games, cells, juries etc.) unless they give a big flashing green light that even the dullest nerd would notice. 

Generally in the captive situation, if you do dare to go for it, it's best to hold off on any direct chatting up until near the end of the period of captivity so that potential post-brushoff awkwardness is of limited duration. Smarter women usually can tell when it's coming, so they'll typically give you hints about their availability, casually mentioning something like "oh, my boyfriend likes pretzels too." There is a certain element that consciously conceals such information just because they like the flirting game though, and I figure it's OK to proceed with flirting in that case, if only for the practice, but one should be aware that a lack of data isn't a positive or negative.

This being said, the non-pick-up spot cold flirt is a pretty low-percentage way of meeting people, but it is possible to do it without being excessively obnoxious. I've probably ended up with more friends than dates thereby, since random encounters aren't very selective for singleness or basic compatibility.

*This holds also for adults, as even if you're 30, it's really awkward to flirt with someone while your mom is 10 ft away.


----------



## tarchon

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Hida, this isn't a dig, it's an honest question.
> 
> Do you have *Asperger's Syndrome*?
> 
> You might want to get checked.




Aspergers is a hot diagnosis right now - if you go in asking if you've got it, the answer is "yes, can I put your case in my new self-help book?"


----------



## The Shaman

Torm said:
			
		

> You'll want to be careful when chatting up women where they work that you don't do it in a fashion that causes them work problems...



Then again, you never know:

I met a smokin' hot girl when I worked on the staff at a museum. She was visiting for extra credit for a college class she was taking - I helped her with her homework, and gave her my phone number.

That was over fourteen years ago - we're married and have a beautiful daughter.

As *Torm* notes, *be respectful* of the opposite sex in their place of work - most of all remember that they are a "captive audience" as you can leave and they often can't - but if the opportunity a brief conversation comes up, why not? Good things can happen.


----------



## DeadlyUematsu

Crothian said:
			
		

> You do realize how entirely unhelpful that comment is?  There are a few pages of advice, and your saying that most is not worth it, but you aren't willing to point out what is good and what is bad.




No. I found it more helpful to point him exactly where he wants to go AND to suggest an alternative to the desired 'scoring'.



> The fact is the advice is all good, just not for everyone.  With billions of people in the world there is no single advice that applies to all, and proablty no single bit of advice that applies to none of them.




I still wouldn't recommend most of the advice in this thread. Not because it doesn't work in specific cases, but because it doesn't work in general.


----------



## Teflon Billy

DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> I still wouldn't recommend most of the advice in this thread. Not because it doesn't work in specific cases, but because it doesn't work in general.




I googled it, and I think my advice is very similar to Tom Leykis's.

So what he's saying Hida is _go with mine_


----------



## DeadlyUematsu

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I googled it, and I think my advice is very similar to Tom Leykis's.
> 
> So what he's saying Hida is _go with mine_




Yeah. Telfon Billy's advice was the best in the thread.

Although Buttercup's suggestion of using prostitution was a close second. 

But I do not endorse spending money.


----------



## Humanophile

DeadlyUematsu, way to come into the topic late.  I think everyone here is agreeing that Billy's advice works best as a "how to get laid" primer.  There are just two problems with that;

One, I think everyone (including Hida himself) accepts that right now, we're working on getting Hida to the point where he can pull these games off.  But they're no good when he needs training mostly at learning the ropes.

Two, Hida has some issues that, laid or no, he needs to deal with.  And while he certainly shouldn't pass up the opportunity if it presents itself, he's better off focusing on getting himself in order.  Making tail into priority number one just guarentees a painful comedy of errors.


Hida, like I said above, your priority now is getting your life in order.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't chat up girls; if nothing else it's a confidence booster, social skills practice, and a chance to build yourself a new social circle all in one.  (And I've said it before, but it bears repeating; don't worry if you come off as the nice, shy epitome of "just a friend".  It may have an atrocious success rate, but at this point in your life friends and confidence are more important than tail.  Besides, your firsts will be far more pleasant memories this way than if you make it all about "winning".)

But most importantly, Buttercup's advice about getting some counseling is a Very Good Idea.  You need to do a lot of development that most people did long ago.  Some sort of guidance on putting the pieces together would be most helpful.  Join activities if you can.  And it couldn't hurt to follow up on the Aspergers thing.  You're online, the worst that can happen is that you don't find the resources available that helpful.

But basically take care of yourself, find activities to get you out and dealing with people while padding your schedule, and try to just work on being more confident and outgoing socially.  It'll come in time.  And contrary to what some of the above posters might sound like, I'll bet that if you focus on getting your own house in order and being less uptight about how things might look to some hypothetical observer, you'll fit in at least a first kiss within the year.


----------



## Obryn

DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> Anyway, a lot of the advice given here is outdated, won't work, and is embarrassingly half-hearted.



You think that telling him to lose weight, bathe regularly, and dress nicely is outdated and won't work?  And that seeing a counselor might not be a good idea?

Because, really, that's all most of us are saying, man.

-O


----------



## The Shaman

Obryn said:
			
		

> It's going to be rough being non-creepy if you're defining everyone in terms of D&D alignments.



Yeah, that kinda jumped out at me, too.

*Important Safety Tip:* Do not use D&D terminology if you are not playing D&D at the time. I think this should be printed on the cover of the _PHB_, like the Surgeon General's warning - I should write a letter to someone about this.

Okay, I gave up reading this thread after about the fifth page. Please forgive me if I'm covering ground that's already been trod over.

*Hida*, I have two suggestions for you:

1. Take your holiday or birthday money and go to Las Vegas. Hire two prostitutes - not at the same time. (Gotta walk before you can crawl, or whatever.) Have sexual relations with one prostitute, then have sexual relations with another prostitute - take your time, space it out over a couple of days, or you're likely to be disappointed due to the, uh, _brevity_ of the initial experience. Wear condoms while doing this - that can't ever be said enough. Do not - DO NOT - ask for a Cleveland steamer or the Dirty Sanchez. (You'll just have to trust me on this one.) Go home.

By so doing you will demystify the act and shatter both your illusions and your trepidations all at once. Then you can move on to a healthier, more productive view of women as something other than recepticles for your various body parts - or it will make you a misogynist with no respect for women except as sexual objects. (I didn't say this was without a downside.)

*OR*

2. Stop trolling for scoring advice on the Internet - it is the definition of creepy. (As is providing scoring advice over the Internet - yes, I feel quite dirty right now, and I shall discipline myself later.) Start exercising - forget appearances: it will make you FEEL GOOD! Read books and the newspaper - have something to talk about besides you and your "needs": be interesting as well as interested. Go to social gatherings - you can't meet people if you're not around people. Address serious self-esteem issues - a counselor is exactly that: someone who provides counsel.

AND HERE'S THE BIG ONE, THE SECRET TO IT ALL...

Accept rejection, and move on to the next opportunity.

Some girls will like you. Many - most - will not. It's the law of averages. Whether you're a "nice guy" or "a bit of a jerk," you will likely find someone with whom a connection is possible, but it takes time and it takes patience. Everything above is intended to help you prepare yourself for that opportunity when it arises.

Good luck.


----------



## Crothian

DeadlyUematsu said:
			
		

> I still wouldn't recommend most of the advice in this thread. Not because it doesn't work in specific cases, but because it doesn't work in general.




And you know this how?  I'd have to say since most of the advice is coming from many people from all sorts of backgrounds and situations, that it will work in general.  Bathing, losing some weight, dressing nicely is good general advice.


----------



## mythago

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Deftly illustrating the underlying strength of the jerk method:
> 
> It's human nature to pursue most aggressively _what you can't have_.
> 
> That's why being nice usually doesn't work-- nice guys are boring and no challenge.




 Oh, the jerk method absolutely works. The problem is that it works by making you a jerk, and attracting the interest of girls who are insecure, needy and therefore attracted to jerks. (Also, the jerk method doesn't work for really nice guys, because it comes across as fakey. It works just great for jerks who thought being nice guys would get them laid, and are now complaining that women want jerks.)

 Gavin DeBecker, who's written books about stalking and violence, has a different take on why the jerk method works, and Teflon Billy explained the implementation very well: if you throw out a very slight put-down, most people will try to prove the put-down wrong. "Yeah, I'd like to go down to the beach and watch the sun rise. I'd invite you, but you're probably one of those women who's afraid to go anywhere without a bunch of other girls around for company." (You can keep a relationship with an insecure person going for ages this way.)

 And I'm going to reveal a chick secret here, guys. Usually when a woman says "you're just too nice" or "I think of you as a friend" as a brush-off, she usually means that you're just not all that good-looking. Or, that she's one of those adrenaline addicts who will, if the relationship is going smoothly, screw it up because she needs a certain level of tension or she gets bored.


----------



## Brennin Magalus

Hida,  

Anyone who advises you to seek out a prostitute needs his head checked. You need to start exercising and breaking out of your comfort zone. Also, you need to learn the virtue of temperance (or relearn it, as the case may be).


----------



## Obryn

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Anyone who advises you to seek out a prostitute needs his head checked. You need to start exercising and breaking out of your comfort zone. Also, you need to learn the virtue of temperance (or relearn it, as the case may be).



Why?  If all he's looking for is sex, and he doesn't want to put in the time or effort to be a better person than who he is right now, a prostitute sounds perfect.

-O


----------



## Darkness

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Anyone who advises you to seek out a prostitute needs his head checked.



 Why? Real life is just like Pretty Woman, isn't it?


----------



## The Shaman

Brennin Magalus said:
			
		

> Anyone who advises you to seek out a prostitute needs his head checked.



The reference to hiring prostitutes in my post was intended stictly for its humor value, and should not be taken as a serious recommendation to anyone, anytime, anywhere.

(Unless you're in Pahrump or Winnemucca, Nevada.)

(I'm just sayin'.)


----------



## Piratecat

Aoogah, aoogah: that's your warning siren. Be polite and helpful, or this thread is closing faster than a blind date's door at the end of the evening. Being rude -- even when you don't agree with other peoples' advice -- is not the thing to do here.

Thanks.


----------



## The Shaman

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Aoogah, aoogah: that's your warning siren. Be polite and helpful, or this thread is closing faster than a blind date's door at the end of the evening. Being rude -- even when you don't agree with other peoples' advice -- is not the thing to do here.



_Mea culpa_.


----------



## Obryn

The Shaman said:
			
		

> Earth to *Brennin Magalus*: It was a joke.
> 
> Come back and join the rest of the pack, bunkie.



Uhm...

No.

It wasn't.  Not entirely, anyway. 

-O


----------



## Orblivia

Hida-

Ok your 27, your wise to be mindful of the age of the young woman your speaking with.

I think this has been said here before but go out to events your comfortable with and I am pretty sure you will come across more age appropriate  young women.

Best of luck.


----------



## Thotas

Thanks for that "chick secret", Mythago ... I've suspected it for a long time now, but it's nice to confirmation from someone in a situation to know.


----------



## Rel

After several days of watching it grow I finally decided to read this thread and it made for interesting reading.  A couple of things occur:

I'm a nice guy and that fact has, generally speaking, made my dating life more difficult than it needed to be.  Luckily my dating life ended a long time ago thanks to a fortunate encounter with the lovely young lady who, after several years of dating, became and remains my wife.  BUT, over the course of our long relationship, I've loosened up a lot around women.  Thanks to me being married, I was no longer "in the hunt" and I became a lot less concerned about what other women thought of me.  I don't try to go out of my way to be rude but I don't abide stupidity and I feel free to get into an argument with a woman if I disagree with her.

What I've learned is that women seem to _engage_ a lot more with men who challenge them rather than ones that act like fawning doormats.  A number of the women who I've had these altercations with have made it more or less clear that they find me attractive.

So I guess I'm kind of saying that Teflon Billy is onto something but I might soften his delivery a bit and say that (IMHO) you don't precisely need to "be a jerk" in the sense of going out of your way to be rude or nasty (though there are plenty of women that respond to it).  Instead I'd recommend that you just don't take any crap from them that you wouldn't take from the average store clerk, simply because you are trying to cozy up to them.  Don't agree with everything they have to say.  Express your own opinions about stuff and give the impression that you believe your thoughts and ideas are at least as important as hers.

The reason for this is pretty simple:  Sicophantic "yes-men" are just about the most useless thing on the planet unless you need somebody to pick up your drycleaning or go wash your car.  Being challenging and confident shows that you are somebody that will be interesting to be in a relationship with.

The real problem is that there is almost no way to get to Confident without getting in the game and Hida seems to be able to find almost any reason at all not to actually engage in any of the social activities that are required in order to gain some level of experience and therefore confidence.  You can sit around and theorize and contemplate and wonder about the intricacies of flirting, dating, sex and human relationships until the cows come home.  You'll learn a hell of a lot more about your own skills, confidence, strengths and creepiness in a night of flirting at some bar or club than you will reading this thread, helpful though the intentions in it are.

To put this in terms that a gamer can truly appreciate:  If you buy a new computer game, you can read the manual for hours and hours but you're never going to get a real understanding of how it plays, whether you're any good at it and how you could get better until you pop that baby into the CD drive and get started.


----------



## Snoweel

Orblivia said:
			
		

> *runs screaming*
> 
> No Snowy. *LOL*
> 
> I dont want to roll for climax thanks.
> 
> See Hida...THAT was creepy




You're such a friggin elfteaser...


----------



## Darrin Drader

Snoweel said:
			
		

> You're such a friggin elfteaser...




Go get a room.

By yourself, if you know what I mean... and I think you do.


----------



## mythago

Thotas said:
			
		

> Thanks for that "chick secret", Mythago ... I've suspected it for a long time now, but it's nice to confirmation from someone in a situation to know.




To be honest, Thotas, they're not doing it to be mean. But chicks learn early on that "No" is a deafness-inducing word for most guys, and "Thank you, but I don't want to go out with you" is going to be followed up with a demand that we give three alternatives and show our work. Eventually (some of us) learn that we don't owe an explanation, but "You're just such a nice guy" is a polite way of a) offering a reason that b) cuts off the argumentation.

And isn't it kinder to say "I think of you as a friend" than "I'm out of your league"?


----------



## Rel

mythago said:
			
		

> And isn't it kinder to say "I think of you as a friend" than "I'm out of your league"?




Yes, but honestly I think it smacks of more than a little passive-aggressiveness and I think there are better alternatives to saying either of those things.  

Personal experience has shown me that when a girl says "I'd rather just be friends" then it means "I'd rather not be your friend at all and wish you would just go away" OR (frequently) "I like having you around because it makes me feel good about myself to know that there is SOMEONE who has the hots for me and I could always fall back on if I ever get REALLY desperate but if you are fortunate enough to actually find another girl who shows genuine interest in you then I will push you away so fast you'll have whiplash."

I think that if you really DO value someone as a friend then what you would say is something like, "I like you but you are not what I'm looking for in a romantic partner and you probably never will be.  Despite our potential to be friends we are simply incompatible as lovers.  If that makes it uncomfortable for you to be around me then I understand.  But if you go away to avoid that discomfort then I will always miss (whatever it is you like) about you and I want you to know that those are things that I value."

I'm not saying that you're necessarily a bad person if you use the "I think of you as a friend" line.  But let's not pretend that it is something it isn't.  It is a little lie that everybody on the receiving end KNOWS is a little lie and it primarily serves to make the person telling it feel like they are "letting them down easy" when it really does nothing of the sort.


----------



## mythago

Oh, I agree. I, personally, favor the "Oh, thank you, but no" followed by the "What part of NO failed to penetrate the crabbed recesses of your skull?!" method.


----------



## Piratecat

And remember, folks, if you don't want to come off as creepy don't quote Tom Wolfe.


----------



## devilish

Piratecat said:
			
		

> And remember, folks, if you don't want to come off as creepy don't quote Tom Wolfe.





"Hi cutie ..'but the hand that was what she tried to concentrate on, the hand, since it has the entire terrain of her torso to explore and not just the otorhinolaryngological caverns'..."


----------



## maddman75

Yeah, you have to read the subtext.  "Let's just be friends" means "Like the kind of friends that never talk to each other."

Just like "Its not you, it's me."  means "I realized I'm way too good for you."

Seriously though, I used to hate LJBF until I found myself on the other side of the fence.  I mean even if you aren't interested in a person who wants to go out with you, its still flattering.  And you don't want to say anything cruel to this person, so you tell them that you don't have anything against them, you just aren't attracted to them in that way.


----------



## The Shaman

Obryn said:
			
		

> Uhm...
> 
> No.
> 
> It wasn't.  Not entirely, anyway.
> 
> -O



Well, maybe not entirely...


----------



## Buttercup

Rel said:
			
		

> But let's not pretend that it is something it isn't. It is a little lie that everybody on the receiving end KNOWS is a little lie and it primarily serves to make the person telling it feel like they are "letting them down easy" when it really does nothing of the sort.




Actually, I think it *does* let someone down easily.  Would you rather have someone tell you that lie, or truthfully list all the ways in which you don't measure up?


----------



## Angcuru

Well, being told how I don't measure up would be strangely welcome.  Flat out insults I could ignore, but there may be some valid points which I had never realized.  But then, I've never been phased by anything a near-stranger has said to me, so I have no problem doing this.


----------



## Rel

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Would you rather have someone tell you that lie, or truthfully list all the ways in which you don't measure up?




I'll admit that I've not been in the position to have to pick either of these in some time and I hope I never am again (seems like a pretty safe bet with almost 10 years of a very happy marriage under my belt).  But I'd take the second option every time.

First up, unless the person being told the lie is incredibly stupid or deluded (and I'll give you that infatuation and delusion often go hand in hand) then they KNOW it is a lie and it is only the politeness of some unwritten rule that has them say, "Ok then, I guess we should just be friends."  I find the truth to be a lot more helpful for the long term.

If they are nasty about it and detail my shortcomings (in their eyes) in the form of insults, then it would make me feel some relief at not having gotten into a relationship with someone capable of that.  If they offer reasons that we're incompatible (traits I have that are beyond my control) then I can at least understand that those are potential deal-breakers for some people.  And if they offer constructive criticism about things I can change then I can take that information and make a decision as to whether those are things I really need to change or simply ones that I need to make sure that future potential mates can accept.

The whole "it's not you, it's me" routine really gives me no useful information except the fact that the person saying it doesn't want to spend the effort to help me be a better person but they will happily spend some effort to make themselves not feel like a bad person.  That doesn't make them a terrible person, just a little lazy or cowardly or both.


----------



## mythago

The "useful information" is that they don't want to accept your offer. That's it. 

 They don't owe you an ego-boost, a helpful listing of what might have made them say yes, an excuse for refusing, or an explanation of their own faults that make them unsuitable for you.

 If you're doing something terrible that chases women away, it's good for somebody to tell you so that you can fix it--but that's a job for your friends. The ask-ee's only real obligation is to be polite about it, i.e. "Oh, thank you, but I'm not interested" rather than "You?! Go out with _you_? Bwahahahahahaha!"


----------



## Piratecat

Rel said:
			
		

> The whole "it's not you, it's me" routine really gives me no useful information except the fact that the person saying it doesn't want to spend the effort to help me be a better person but they will happily spend some effort to make themselves not feel like a bad person.  That doesn't make them a terrible person, just a little lazy or cowardly or both.




I'm going to try this next time I close a thread. "I'm really sorry. It's not you, it's me.  Klunk."


----------



## Keeper of Secrets

I think *this* whole thread is kind of creepy.


----------



## Rel

mythago said:
			
		

> They don't owe you an ego-boost, a helpful listing of what might have made them say yes, an excuse for refusing, or an explanation of their own faults that make them unsuitable for you.




I never said they did, except in the special case where they genuinely did want to "just be friends".  As you point out, the role of a friend is to provide that sort of feedback.  The role of somebody who has no interest in "just being friends" should be to politely decline without the use of some sort of lie.

I began this entire point as a reply to you saying "And isn't it kinder to say 'I think of you as a friend' than 'I'm out of your league'?"  And I suppose, to put it more succinctly, my reply to that question would be "barely".  If somebody is truly creepy and you believe that you might be in immediate physical danger or in danger of them stalking you over the long term then use whatever means are necessary in order to extricate yourself from the situation.

If, on the other hand, this person's only crime is that you are not in any way interested in getting involved with them, I think it the kinder route to simply say so rather than to pretend in a friendship that you hope never exists.

I find it vaguely amusing and also rather sad that after TB rolled into the thread and trotted out the classic "Be a jerk" modus operandi, the response was (I'm paraphrasing a lot) "It is far better to treat women as people.  And keep in mind that these people will lie to you in a heartbeat, given the slightest bit of discomfort on their part at you asking them out when they'd rather you didn't."



			
				Piratecat said:
			
		

> I'm going to try this next time I close a thread. "I'm really sorry. It's not you, it's me. Klunk."




I know you're kidding, PC, but this makes for a good analogy.  One of the things that I like about you as a Mod is that you don't wield your power capriciously and without explanation.  You usually have already provided a warning by the time you close a thread and usually provide an explanation when you do.  I would assume this is because you have some shred of care about the long term viability of a poster on this board.  You want them to develop good posting habits so you let them know what they are doing wrong with the hopes that they'll correct those habits in the future or at least understand being banned if they continue in those infractions of the rules (though I've virtually never seen this happen).


----------



## Talvisota

Haven't bothered to read all of the posts save the first page, but I want to counter what one oftern hears on this subject.

"Be yourself?"  Not a good idea, since very few of us know who we really are in the first place.  I was unsuccessful in this arena until I learned that this isn't the best advice for the first few contacts with the intended individual or individuals.  

Don't be yourself, be the guy who gets l**d.


----------



## tarchon

Keeper of Secrets said:
			
		

> I think *this* whole thread is kind of creepy.




Oohh, we made a Slaanesh demon feel ooky!


----------



## Teflon Billy

Talvisota said:
			
		

> Haven't bothered to read all of the posts save the first page, but I want to counter what one oftern hears on this subject.
> 
> "Be yourself?"  Not a good idea, since very few of us know who we really are in the first place.  I was unsuccessful in this arena until I learned that this isn't the best advice for the first few contacts with the intended individual or individuals.
> 
> Don't be yourself, be the guy who gets l**d.




I'll see that someone issues you your uniform and your ID Badge. Welcome aboard

The reason I originally chimed in to this thread was that folks were lining up to tell the guy to "Be Himself", when he had made it pretty clear that Being Himself wasn't getting it done.


----------



## tetsujin28

"Be yourself" is just about the worst advice anyone could give. You need to be your _idealized_ self, the one that's cool and that all the chixxorz dig.


----------



## Heretic Apostate

tetsujin28 said:
			
		

> "Be yourself" is just about the worst advice anyone could give. You need to be your _idealized_ self, the one that's cool and that all the chixxorz dig.




Yeah, like that episode of BtVS, where Xander gets split into two, and everyone loves Confident Xander.

Only don't bring that up in conversations with chicks...


----------



## Snoweel

Rel said:
			
		

> the response was (I'm paraphrasing a lot) "It is far better to treat women as people.  And keep in mind that these people will lie to you in a heartbeat, given the slightest bit of discomfort on their part at you asking them out when they'd rather you didn't."




Treating women as people is perfect advice for getting their knickers off.

True.

Just bear in mind that if you believe every word that _people_ say, and give them respect they haven't earned, and supplicate to _people_ in the hope they'll find your sad devotion attractive, then you almost deserve to be used and discarded.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Actually, I think it *does* let someone down easily.  Would you rather have someone tell you that lie, or truthfully list all the ways in which you don't measure up?




The problem is that when a woman says "I want us to be friends" (either after declining a request for a date or when dumping you at the end of a relationship) she might mean either of two things...

_a) That she wishes to persue a long-term platonic friendship with you.

b) That she never wants to have any contact with you ever again, whatsoever, and following the termination of the current conversation will, from that point on, ignore any email mails, text messages, phone calls (i.e. if on mobile she will not answer, if on landline she will use her answerphone to screen our messages) and letters you send until you realise that when she said "I want us to be friends" she actually means "go away and never contact me ever again, for the rest of your life._

...and we blokes have no way of knowing which one she means.

Not that I'm in anyway bitter.  

The point is, I'm not a stalker. If I send an email and it's ignored, I might perhaps send one follow-up text message (because the email might have got lost), and if that's ignored I'll assume that she doesn't want to have anything to do with me. I won't phone because I have a general policy of not phoning people if I'm not sure if they want to speak to me. (And when I am speaking to people we tend to carry on most "conversations" via email or text, so it would seem strange to suddenly switch to phoning them).

I don't mind that they don't want to speak to me. Relationship breakups can be painful and often the best way of coping with that is to break all contact, and the awkwardness of an unrequited interest can be similarly handled.

I just wish the girl would be honest in these cases. I think it's very cruel to 100% stop speaking to someone (after insisting to their face that you were going to do the opposite) on the assumption that the dumb [expetive deleted] will eventually figure out that you don't want to speak to him. You're not sparing the bloke pain, just making sure that you won't have to witness it, and also serving that pain with a huge side order of confusion and uncertainty.

By the way, I'm not saying that men are overall nicer in relationships. In fact, I suspect that if we totted up all the cruel things both sexes do, men as a gender would have a much higher total than women. I just think that in this case men - perhaps through caring less - are more likely to be honest and just tell the woman to go away. Which I think causes less pain in the long run.


----------



## Heretic Apostate

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> The problem is that when a woman says "I want us to be friends" (either after declining a request for a date or when dumping you at the end of a relationship) she might mean either of two things...
> 
> _a) That she wishes to persue a long-term platonic friendship with you._
> 
> _b) That she never wants to have any contact with you ever again, whatsoever, and following the termination of the current conversation will, from that point on, ignore any email mails, text messages, phone calls (i.e. if on mobile she will not answer, if on landline she will use her answerphone to screen our messages) and letters you send until you realise that when she said "I want us to be friends" she actually means "go away and never contact me ever again, for the rest of your life._




I do believe I'm in that sort of situation right now.  A woman that I dated, which didn't work out, now has about $90 worth of my stuff (a DVD and a school textbook).  I've been trying for two months to get them back, but she keeps putting me off.  All I want is my damn stuff, then she can go jump off a bridge for all I care (I've made every effort to stay friends, and been blown off for months, so it's obvious she isn't interested).

There should be a rule: if you're going to discard a guy, give him back his freaking stuff first.


----------



## Xath

The problem with explaining why you use the nice rejections is that it oftentimes gives the Dumb & Dumber "So...you're saying there's still a chance" reaction.  And I know I've never used the "I'd rather just be friends." line when I didn't mean just that.  Especially at the end of a relationship.  Initially it can be uncomfortable, but I've managed to stay friends with all of my ex's.  

Jonny, sometimes there's another reason. 

c) You have horrible horrible timing.  Something has happened recently which has made me want to steer clear of relationships for a while.  Had you asked me a month ago...

As far as turning down strangers is concerned, I find that the "I'm already seeing someone" excuse is relatively painless for all parties involved, even if it's not true.


----------



## Rel

Xath said:
			
		

> As far as turning down strangers is concerned, I find that the "I'm already seeing someone" excuse is relatively painless for all parties involved, even if it's not true.




If you're gonna lie then this is preferable to LJBF.  But expect hurt feelings if you start dating his best friend the following week.


----------



## Orblivia

I dunno it occured to me last week tho...another bit of advice....

Don't hunt down her IM information, have a friend IM on your behalf telling you that you saw her at X and that you like her.

Thats ing creepy.


----------



## Piratecat

Rel said:
			
		

> I would assume this is because you have some shred of care about the long term viability of a poster on this board.  You want them to develop good posting habits so you let them know what they are doing wrong with the hopes that they'll correct those habits in the future or at least understand being banned if they continue in those infractions of the rules (though I've virtually never seen this happen).



Mind you, I also don't have to worry about a disappointed poster stalking me to my house and calling at odd hours of the night, then hanging up.  Except for Teflon Billy.  But he's an exception. 

In a dating situation, especially if I found someone creepy, I may handle things differently. Hard to say.


----------



## Xath

Rel said:
			
		

> If you're gonna lie then this is preferable to LJBF.  But expect hurt feelings if you start dating his best friend the following week.




I said that this qualifies in a situation where strangers are concerned.  In general, I don't hold with lies because they tend to overcomplicate things, and there's the guilt and remorse that go along with them.  

Being turned down sucks, but turning people down can be equally as uncomfortable and painful, especially in the case of a friend.  So many girls choose to minimize their discomfort by creating a lie or excuse that both can live with, without the complete "shot down" effects of utter rejection.


----------



## randomling

I think one of the issues here is that there are some guys around who feel a sense of entitlement on the basis of having asked you out, and if it's a (total) stranger it's difficult to tell the difference. In fact, if a total stranger approaches to ask me for a date, I tend to think they are more likely than the average population to be creepy or unpleasant.

Of the four total strangers who have approached me to ask me out in the last year or so, only one took the initial brush off ("I've got a boyfriend" - a lie, but that was the most recent and I had learned by this point) and went away. Two of them harrassed me _after I had said no_ for a good ten minutes or so with "why not?", asking for my phone number and so on. The remaining one trapped me on a bus, intimidated me into giving him my number, and went on to sexually assault me.

So my experience is that the truth is completely useless with a complete stranger. If a friend or acquaintance was asking me out, I might well act differently.


----------



## Xath

One more bit of "approaching" advice.

No Touching!

When approaching a stranger with whom you would like to engage in conversation, don't touch them.  If a hand is offered upon the meeting, that's one thing.  But no touching.  That will immediately put you on the creepy list.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

randomling said:
			
		

> I think one of the issues here is that there are some guys around who feel a sense of entitlement on the basis of having asked you out, and if it's a (total) stranger it's difficult to tell the difference. In fact, if a total stranger approaches to ask me for a date, I tend to think they are more likely than the average population to be creepy or unpleasant.
> 
> Of the four total strangers who have approached me to ask me out in the last year or so, only one took the initial brush off ("I've got a boyfriend" - a lie, but that was the most recent and I had learned by this point) and went away. Two of them harrassed me _after I had said no_ for a good ten minutes or so with "why not?", asking for my phone number and so on. The remaining one trapped me on a bus, intimidated me into giving him my number, and went on to sexually assault me.
> 
> So my experience is that the truth is completely useless with a complete stranger. If a friend or acquaintance was asking me out, I might well act differently.




Well what happened to you was totally out of order, especially, incredibly so in the last example. That's not really anything I can say about that, except to say, well, sorry I guess, on behalf of my gender.

What I was talking about though, was the following two types of cases:

a) Where you have been in a quite serious relationship for at least few months (i.e. a lot more than just "dating") and the girl breaks up with you, gives you the "I want to be friends" line, and then proceeds to stop speaking to you (and you only find out because all subsequent emails, phone calls and text messages go unanswered).

b) Where you have been platonic friends with a girl for a fair period of time, rather stupidly fall for her, and even more stupidly tell her how you feel (not even necessarily "in a let's go out way" but more a "I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to tell you how I feel way because it's upsetting me and you're starting to notice") and she first insists that although she doesn't want a romantic relationship with you she definately, absolutely wants to be your friend - and then proceeds to stop speaking to you.

I've been through both, the latter quite recently. The former I managed to go through quite a few times (in slightly different variations) with the same girl, and although now, some years later we're good (platonic) friends, at the time it was a very rough, unpleasant experience to go through. (Especially so as she had a psycho ex-boyfriend, so there were several times - when she'd simply stopped speaking to me for no apparent reason without any explantion - where I was actually seriously worried for her safety).


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Xath said:
			
		

> One more bit of "approaching" advice.
> 
> No Touching!
> 
> When approaching a stranger with whom you would like to engage in conversation, don't touch them.  If a hand is offered upon the meeting, that's one thing.  But no touching.  That will immediately put you on the creepy list.




I wouldn't dream of touching someone who I wasn't in some kind of relationship with. Hell! I'm usually a bit cautious when I am in a relationship.

I've actually had times, when in bed with a girl, where she's got so annoyed at me constantly checking to see if she is still okay with me touching her that's she actually snapped and shouted, "Look you can do anything you want, alright! Just stop asking if it's okay!"


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Xath said:
			
		

> I said that this qualifies in a situation where strangers are concerned.  In general, I don't hold with lies because they tend to overcomplicate things, and there's the guilt and remorse that go along with them.
> 
> Being turned down sucks, but turning people down can be equally as uncomfortable and painful, especially in the case of a friend.  So many girls choose to minimize their discomfort by creating a lie or excuse that both can live with, without the complete "shot down" effects of utter rejection.




Thing is, it's still rejection either way. Consider these two scenarios:

* * * * *​
Boy and girl are friends - perhaps they sometimes trade jokey emails, help each other with various things (homework, DIY, shopping) and sometimes go to the pictures together where it's a film they both like. Boy asks girl out. Girl says, "No, sorry, I don't think we're suited, and I think it would be best if we just steered clear of each other from now on because otherwise it might be a bit awkward."

*REJECTION*

* * * * *​
Boy and girl are friends - perhaps they sometimes trade jokey emails, help each other with various things (homework, DIY, shopping) and sometimes go to the pictures together where it's a film they both like. Boy asks girl out. Girl says, "No, sorry, I don't think we're suited, but I really want us to stay friends just like we have been."

A couple of weeks later boy emails girl suggesting that they go and see a new film that has come out and that she previously expressed an interest in seeing.

Gets no response.

Boy waits a few days and texts girl asking if she is okay.

Gets no response.

Boy waits a couple of weeks and phones her on her mobile to ask if she is okay.

She rejects the call. He tries calling back thinking maybe her train went through a tunnel or something. Finds that her phone is now turned off. He realises that she is no longer speaking to him.

*REJECTION*

* * * * *​
Either way it's rejection, but the latter is considerably more painful to deal with. I can see why the woman in this case would do it, because it's hard to tell someone to their face that you don't want to be friends with them anymore. But there's no point claiming that it's being done for the benefit of the person being dumped, because it quite clearly isn't to their benefit.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Heretic Apostate said:
			
		

> I do believe I'm in that sort of situation right now.  A woman that I dated, which didn't work out, now has about $90 worth of my stuff (a DVD and a school textbook).  I've been trying for two months to get them back, but she keeps putting me off.  All I want is my damn stuff, then she can go jump off a bridge for all I care (I've made every effort to stay friends, and been blown off for months, so it's obvious she isn't interested).
> 
> There should be a rule: if you're going to discard a guy, give him back his freaking stuff first.




$90? That's nothing!   

I'm owed a total of around £4800 (around $9000 at current prices) by two particular girls.  

Yes, I am a mug when it comes to women. And to answer the inevitable questions about why I haven't tried / insisted on getting the money back:

a) These were verbal agreements, so I have no proof, and if I tried pressing the issue (i.e. phoning, writing, emailing) they could just have reported me for stalking.

b) I have better things to do with my life than beg / ask nicely people I no longer like to give me back what is, after all, my money.

At least I can feel good about myself. I'm not sure about them.


----------



## Xath

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> b) Where you have been platonic friends with a girl for a fair period of time, rather stupidly fall for her, and even more stupidly tell her how you feel (not even necessarily "in a let's go out way" but more a "I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to tell you how I feel way because it's upsetting me and you're starting to notice") and she first insists that although she doesn't want a romantic relationship with you she definately, absolutely wants to be your friend - and then proceeds to stop speaking to you.




Someone not speaking to you after that seems a little extreme, but I can tell you from personal experience that it's really wierd to be the girl in the above situation.  Even if she has an inkling that you may be attracted to her, it's another thing entirely to have it out in the open.  Girls feel that they can talk to guys who are "friends" about anything, because you can get the opinion of the opposite sex without the sexual tension.  I don't really hold with the "When Harry Met Sally" opinion.  But when a guy reveals that there is that sort of romantic interest, the comfort zone is taken away.  Which is going to change the friendship, though it doesn't always end it.  

Afterwards, the girl may feel as though if she continues to act normally, you may get the feeling that she's leading you on, which causes her to distance herself, at least initially.  It's not really fair to either of you, but can you really expect things to just be hunky dory when you drop a bomb like that?  

Remember, if the girl has a feeling that you like her before you tell her, she'll give you clues as to how she'd react if approached.  That should let you know whether to breach the subject or not.


----------



## Xath

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Either way it's rejection, but the latter is considerably more painful to deal with. I can see why the woman in this case would do it, because it's hard to tell someone to their face that you don't want to be friends with them anymore. But there's no point claiming that it's being done for the benefit of the person being dumped, because it quite clearly isn't to their benefit.




It's not to the benefit of anyone.  But perhaps you pressed the issue too soon.  You should have asked her to the movie with a group of friends that you mutually hang out with.  Asking her to a movie like that after dropping the attraction bomb may have made her feel like you were trying to go out with her, even though she had said she wasn't interested.


----------



## Droid101

tarchon said:
			
		

> If you're an experienced single guy, you've almost subconsciously been tracking everyone in the vicinity since you arrived in order to determine their relationships to potential dateables.



You rule man, you rule.  I soooo do that without even realizing it.

I love this thread.  Makes me happy.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Xath said:
			
		

> It's not to the benefit of anyone.  But perhaps you pressed the issue too soon.  You should have asked her to the movie with a group of friends that you mutually hang out with.  Asking her to a movie like that after dropping the attraction bomb may have made her feel like you were trying to go out with her, even though she had said she wasn't interested.




Well that was more a hypothetical example. In *my* recent(ish) case, when we had the "conversation" she insisted that it didn't in any way change how she felt about me, and we agreed that I should probably take a few weeks to get my head together and then get back in contact with her when I had. She specifically said that she wanted the friendship to continue.

Anyhow, I took a few weeks (about five as I recall), and did work through my feelings pretty well. I'm not saying I didn't still feel a few pangs, but I was able to have a much better perspective on what was, if I'm honest, not really any more than a crush. By that point I thought I ought to email her, because I'd said I'd do that and I thought she might be worried about me.

My motivation here wasn't to immediately see her again. I didn't think that would be a good thing, either for her, or for me. But we had previously had a really good, close friendship and I just wanted to touch base with her so we could keep in general contact, and perhaps at some point in the future resume the friendship. Because by this point, having largely got over the "crush" feelings, what was really upsetting me was the thought that I might have destroyed the friendship (and I know she'd said that I hadn't, but bitter experience has taught me that girls generally say that, regardless).

I was also aware that because of the way it had been left (me taking some time out of the friendship to get my head together) she couldn't really contact me, because she'd know I might still be a bit upset about things and would worry about upsetting me further. So if we were to get our friendship back on track, it was up to me to contact her.

So I sent her a nice, reasonably chatty email, letting her know that I was okay, and moving on and stuff, and basically just filling her in on what other things had been happening in my life - which was quite a lot of good stuff as it happens. It was friendly, positive, and I didn't in any way suggest us seeing each other. It was litterally just a "touch bases" email. And I really worked hard to write it as well as I could, with nothing that could be misunderstood, or that might make her feel bad.

Really, all I was expecting from her was a similarly chatty email back, just saying hi, and saying a few things about the way her life was going. Then we could have left it for a few months, knowing that the friendship was still there, just sleeping. Then maybe, in a few months time, maybe we'd go see a film or something. (Or at the very least, I could have sent her a New Years text message on Jan 1st).

Anyhow, two or three weeks went by and nothing. As you can no doubt imagine, by this point I was worried that perhaps, email being what it is, my email had just disappeared into the ether. (And it would be horrible to end a friendship because - due to a lost email - you each thought that the other one was ignoring you).

So eventually, I sent her a text message (text was the standard way we used to "chat") asking if she'd got my email, and saying that it was fine if she had but had been too busy to respond to it yet, but I was just a bit worried that it might have got lost in the ether and wanted to check.

She replied back pretty much saying that she'd been busy and hadn't replied yet and not much else. I showed the message to a few friends and the conclusion they all came from (from the way she'd put it, was "brush off").

And that was that. She never did reply to the email. (It's now several months later).

I'm fairly happy in my own mind that the friendship is over - although very unhappy that I've destroyed what I thought was a very, good friendship. But it would be nice to know 100% that the friendship is permantly over, rather than having to assume it. It not very nice to have doubts about something like this.

And that's that!

* * *

Well that was a bit more personal information than I was planning on giving...


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Droid101 said:
			
		

> You rule man, you rule.  I soooo do that without even realizing it.
> 
> I love this thread.  Makes me happy.




Glad someone's enjoying it. I nearly committed suicide on page one when someone said that girls don't go for guys who wear tie-die t-shirts.


----------



## Rel

Droid101 said:
			
		

> I love this thread.  Makes me happy.




Me too.  Happy to be married and no longer in the dating pool.

Though if I ever am (God forbid), I'm gonna see if I can cruise for chicks with TB.


----------



## Psion

Rel said:
			
		

> Though if I ever am (God forbid), I'm gonna see if I can cruise for chicks with TB.




Oooh, bad call. TB has teh sexay. The chicks won't even notice you.


----------



## Afrodyte

Xath said:
			
		

> Someone not speaking to you after that seems a little extreme, but I can tell you from personal experience that it's really wierd to be the girl in the above situation.  Even if she has an inkling that you may be attracted to her, it's another thing entirely to have it out in the open.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> Afterwards, the girl may feel as though if she continues to act normally, you may get the feeling that she's leading you on, which causes her to distance herself, at least initially.  It's not really fair to either of you, but can you really expect things to just be hunky dory when you drop a bomb like that?




This is precisely what makes it hard to deal with male friends (generally just gamer buddies) who suddenly express a desire to go out with me.  Honestly, I do not know how to handle it when a guy drops the bomb and says he likes me.  I'm not approached that often by men, let alone men I find attractive.  Then I have to deal with this roiling blob of feelings, intuitions, and thoughts.  Oftentimes I don't know how I _should_ feel about the person.  My instincts can tell me one thing, my mind another, and my body something entirely different.  I don't want to push a nice person away, but I don't want to put myself into a dangerous predicament either.  Although I'm sure that sharing this would be reassuring to a guy who's interested in me, I don't think I want to tell these thoughts and feelings to someone I barely know.  In my experience, when I have sued the "let's just be friends" line and then break off contact, it's been because most men, except those who are more "effeminate," don't really know how to be platonic friends with women.  Or rather, they do, but as long as they aren't reminded that they are dealing with a woman.  In other words, as long as sex and romance don't become the topic of conversation.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Piratecat said:
			
		

> Mind you, I also don't have to worry about a disappointed poster stalking me to my house and calling at odd hours of the night, then hanging up.  Except for Teflon Billy.  But he's an exception.




You love it and you know it...


----------



## Rel

Afrodyte said:
			
		

> I'm not approached that often by men, let alone men I find attractive.  Then I have to deal with this roiling blob of feelings, intuitions, and thoughts.  Oftentimes I don't know how I _should_ feel about the person.  My instincts can tell me one thing, my mind another, and my body something entirely different.




_"You over think things
You say 'what if 
we're not meant to be?'
Well you know what? So what
Make a mistake with me

Nobody goes through this life and does
Everything perfectly
We're all gonna fail
So you might as well
Make a mistake with me"_

Sorry, but I was listening to this song on the way home and it seemed appropriate to your predicament.


----------



## Rel

Psion said:
			
		

> Oooh, bad call. TB has teh sexay. The chicks won't even notice you.




I'm counting on sheer volume.  I figure he'll draw a big crowd but he can't handle more than 6 or 7 by himself and I'll see if I can pick off a straggler.

Ah, romance!


----------



## d20Dwarf

Afrodyte said:
			
		

> Then I have to deal with this roiling blob of feelings, intuitions, and thoughts..




That's no way to talk about your friends, especially ones that like you.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Afrodyte said:
			
		

> In my experience, when I have sued the "let's just be friends" line and then break off contact




Just out of interest, when you did that, did you let the bloke know were breaking off contact (i.e. say to him, "I'm sorry, but I think it's best if we go our separate ways") or did you just stop speaking to him (so he was left not quite knowing how you felt about him - angry? upset? speaking? not speaking? friends? not friends?)

Because that's the bit that annoys me. I don't mind a woman saying she wants to be friends and then changing her mind. I just think that where you have someone who you once thought of as a friend, and who hasn't been in anyway nasty or agressive to you - well I think he deserves that you at least be honest to him, and not leave him hanging, wondering just how badly you hate him.

That's *all* I'm saying. It doesn't seem a huge thing to ask.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Afrodyte said:
			
		

> most men, except those who are more "effeminate," don't really know how to be platonic friends with women.  Or rather, they do, but as long as they aren't reminded that they are dealing with a woman.  In other words, as long as sex and romance don't become the topic of conversation.




Well just an aside, I've got quite a few female platonic friends, and I generally find I don't have a problem having a platonic friendship as long as don't fall in love with them (which has happened twice in my lifetime).

I have to say that I find it a bit hard to believe that women are immune from falling in love with someone who they've decided they want to be platonic friends with.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Just out of interest, when you did that, did you let the bloke know were breaking off contact (i.e. say to him, "I'm sorry, but I think it's best if we go our separate ways") or did you just stop speaking to him (so he was left not quite knowing how you felt about him - angry? upset? speaking? not speaking? friends? not friends?)




I'd say that girls behave this way for one reason and one reason only Johnny, and strangely, it's the same reason I outlined earlier in my thread for the way I behave...

_It gets the results they want with the least effort/most predictablity_

If she has decided that you have changed the fundamental nature of your relationship ("Acquaintances" from the sound of it), then she probably doesn't feel that she needs or wants a lot of drama. Were I her, I would assume that fully half of the conversations you and she would have from this point forward would be about "your relationship" and would likley be very forced and uncomfortable. 

It sounds a lot like when I tell a girl "I'll call you" at the end of an evening, knowing that I have no intention of doing so. Telling her that I didn't have a good enough time to call her up again is not an action that bears any fruit for me whatsoever. As such, I don't do it. 

"I'll call you" in this case is simply a farewell, in much the same fashion that "how are you doing?" is not so much a question as a greeting.

That is what "I just want to be friends" is (most of the time), it's not a plea for freindship, it is a _dismissal_. One that hopefully minimizes the uncomfortable situation the girl has been put in 

Don't get all huffy with them over it, just accept it for what it is.

Because, at it's core, a "friendship" where one "friend" has unrequited romantic designs on the other is not a freindship; it is a recipe for disaster.



> ...well I think he deserves that you at least be honest to him, and not leave him hanging, wondering just how badly you hate him.
> 
> That's *all* I'm saying. It doesn't seem a huge thing to ask.




Oh Christ Johnny...a plea for honesty and closure? why not just send her an email with a cryptic "I just want to know where I stand" or perhaps "we need to decide where this relationship is going".

Your pleas for honesty are classic "girl whine"... She has been as honest as she needs to be. The message is all there. You are just refusing to read it.


She hit you with "let's be friends"
She has not "been friends"

What else do you need? :\


----------



## Teflon Billy

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> Well just an aside, I've got quite a few female platonic friends, and I generally find I don't have a problem having a platonic friendship as long as don't fall in love with them (which has happened twice in my lifetime).
> 
> I have to say that I find it a bit hard to believe that women are immune from falling in love with someone who they've decided they want to be platonic friends with.




So you've twice fallen for "Platonic friends" and you find it "hard to believe" that a woman might not fall in love with a man she has decided she only likes platonically?

If this woman has knwn you for awhile--and is aware of your above stated suspicions--It is beginning to become a lot clearer why she has bulwarked herself from you.


----------



## Droid101

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Your pleas for honesty are classic "girl whine"... She has been as honest as she needs to be. The message is all there. You are just refusing to read it.
> 
> 
> She hit you with "let's be friends"
> She has not "been friends"
> 
> What else do you need? :\



T-Bill quoted for Truth.

Seriously, I hate to be mean Jonny, but stop whining.  It's over.  Deal with it.

I have had to say "I'll call you when I'm more comfortable." after dates/relationships have gone sour.  And never called them back.  You just know.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> What else do you need? :\




Well in a sense nothing. I know the friendship was over, which was why I said:



			
				Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> I'm fairly happy in my own mind that the friendship is over - although very unhappy that I've destroyed what I thought was a very, good friendship.




I'm working on the assumption that she wants nothing to do with me, which is why I haven't made any attempt to contact her.

I guess what pisses me off a bit is the way women (at least an awful lot of women) claim the moral high ground in the relationships arena by slagging off us men for every selfish* thing we do while denying that their classic actions (like the "I want us to be good friends" technique) are in any way selfish whatsoever. And even, incredibly, argue that they're doing it for our benefit!

That's not to say that any one gender is better than the other. For example, as you yourself pointed out, some men say "I'll call you" when they don't mean it, as do some women, while some men and women don't. I don't for example, because without wanting to sound like a goody-two-shoes, I think it's a pretty nasty thing to do and I wouldn't want it done to me. But it does piss me off when women say, "Why don't men call!" when the the truth is that some men (like me) do call and some women (like the girl who took me for £3000) don't.  Ever, in her case. Except when she needed more money.

But you're right to point out that there's no point whining about it, because I'll just piss everyone off, men for being a wussy cry baby, and women because they'll probably just write me off as a sexist pig.  

*In this context, I'm using "selfish" in the meaning of an action that someone takes because it is easy, convenient and painless for them, in preferences to alternative actions that would be less easy for themselves, but better for the other person concerned.


----------



## Obryn

Once again, TB, thanks for cutting through the BS.

Newsflash - If it's an acquaintance or someone you just met, they have _absolutely no duty_ to tell you all the reasons they don't want to date you.

If it's a long-term friend, shame on you for bringing it up in the first place.  Friendships _do sometimes_ turn into more, but it doesn't happen during long soul-searching "we gotta talk" kinds of conversations.  If they turn into more, it's a spontaneous thing - usually after a few beers.

Aside to Johnny Nexus - Lemme see if I get this straight...  Two exes owe you a crapload of money?  Wow.  You can think of yourself as a better person all you want, but the truth is that you were used.

-O


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> So you've twice fallen for "Platonic friends" _and_




Well I am thirty-five, so that's like once every ten years. It's not like I make a habit of it.



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> you find it "hard to believe" that a woman might not fall in love with a man she has decided she only likes platonically?
> 
> If this woman has knwn you for awhile--and is aware of your above stated suspicions--It is beginning to become a lot clearer why she has bulwarked herself from you.




Sorry, I'm genuinely a bit confused here...

You thing I'm weird because I think that it's possible for a women who tries to have a platonic friendship with someone who's unavailable for anything else (perhaps because he's in a relationship, is gay, or has just said he doesn't fancy her) to end up falling in love with him, even though she knows it's not a good idea.

See, I guess I'd think you're a bit weird if you think that *can't* ever happen...

But I think somewhere either you're misunderstanding me or I'm misunderstanding you.

Did you think I meant in in the sense that I thought a woman who said she wasn't interested in *me* might change her mind if I hung around? If so, that was *not* what I meant. Hell, my self-confidence is so low that I find it hard to believe that a women might be interested in me even if she *insisted* she was. (I'd be looking around for the hidden camera).

No, I meant it simply in the sense that sometimes we (both men and women) end up falling in love with people we shouldn't have done, and it doesn't make us bad people - it simply makes us human.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Jonny Nexus said:
			
		

> ...I guess what pisses me off a bit is the way women (at least an awful lot of women) claim the moral high ground in the relationships arena by slagging off us men for every selfish* thing we do while denying that their classic actions (like the "I want us to be good friends" technique) are in any way selfish whatsoever. And even, incredibly, argue that they're doing it for our benefit!...




Both genders, every cultural and subcultural group, every race, and every social class at one point or another tries to claim to moral high ground.

No one can. People being what they are, they will attempt to go the route of least resistance more often than not, and for the most part they will try and rationalize it away as "the right thing"

The sad truth of uit is that there is no right thing. Some win, some lose. Some get hurt, some avoid it. 

Usually the losers and the hurt try and stake out the moral high ground.



			
				Johnny said:
			
		

> That's not to say that any one gender is better than the other. For example, as you yourself pointed out, some men say "I'll call you" when they don't mean it, as do some women, while some men and women don't.




That's a perfect example of what I am--and I guess _was_--talking about



			
				Johnny said:
			
		

> I don't for example, because without wanting to sound like a goody-two-shoes, I think it's a pretty nasty thing to do and I wouldn't want it done to me.




There you are, up on the moral high ground



			
				johnny said:
			
		

> But it does piss me off when women say, "Why don't men call!" when the the truth is that some men (like me) do call and some women (like the girl who took me for £3000) don't.  Ever, in her case. Except when she needed more money.




Egad! like like 5000 Canadian dollars!!!  

But when girls say "men never call", they are peaking in generalizations, in much the same manner as when I say "women love s" it's because they do. Not 100% of them, but enough for it to be signifigant.

The fact that you call women (and apparently con artists or thieves) doesn't invalidate "men don't call" as a generalization at all.


----------



## Droid101

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> I say "women love s" it's because they do.



Oh come on Bill, don't keep us in the dark.  What do women love?


----------



## Psion

I was about to interject that I can't recall an instance where I have had a friendship turn into a relationship successfully.

But then I recalled two instances of friends I had that turned into girlfriends.

Neither lasted, though. I get the impression that if that a man is on the right "wavelength" to be friends with a girl, he's on the wrong "wavelength" to be in a relationship with a girl.

I sometimes wonder though. I met my wife while I was on leave and visiting a friend. If I had time to become close friends with her before I had to go back to my duty station (wherupon I started phone-flirting with her), would have it bloomed into romance? Or would I have been stuck with another "just friends."


----------



## EvilBen

DU (way back in post #200, I need to make sure I'm really on the last page before posting dag-nabbit!) is actually on to something, pick up a team sport (I too prefer rugby) *and* a hobby (theater did it for me).  They both will help you with social skills, and meeting people.  The sport will hep get you into shape (if needed) and help with confidence, and as long as one or both of the activities involve members of the oppisite sex, you will get to meet "womens" too.  And if nothing romantic comes of it, you have learned someting new, got in some exercise and probably made some new friends.  

Broaden you cultural horizons, it will give you more to talk about than your 17th level ranger and his polar bear animal compainion next time you are in need of conversation fodder.


----------



## Afrodyte

TB and Obryn have the right idea.  I didn't really know this guy aside from gaming, and I sure never spent any time alone with him.  Very stupidly, I tried to see what would happen if I gave him a chance in that way, and it only left me feeling uncomfortable.  I said the LJBF thing, and I didn't contact him after that because I needed some distance.  OK, a lot of distance.  Regardless of what he said, I could not shake the belief that he wanted more from me than I was ready and willing to give.  It's like one minute, he's really into me and wanting me to be his girlfriend, and as soon as I say, "I can't do this," I'm supposed to believe that he no longer has such feelings for me.  Rather than getting embroiled in the type of drama that can come from that, I decided not to cease contact because I believe that any show of interest on my part would give him the wrong impression, and I don't want to deal with the mess that can result from that.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt

This is why I've given up on the whole dating scene. 

Everywhere people are No Da*n Good. Not just women, but men too. Not just gamers, but straights too. No Da*n Good. Which is why homosexuality is not really an option to do better because one way or the other you are still dealing with men and women – you are still dealing with people.

Asking people out (and similar social exercises) is about as much as being stuck in a washing machine full of broken glass and sex is perennially disappointing. Dating is not worth the effort.

You're not going to find "that special someone" because no one is special, not really. Far too much hassle for far too little emotional or physical reward.

Take a step back, look at it plainly and simply and realize it is not worth the effort.

TILGUTI.


----------



## A2Z

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> This is why I've given up on the whole dating scene.
> 
> Everywhere people are No Da*n Good. Not just women, but men too. Not just gamers, but straights too. No Da*n Good. Which is why homosexuality is not really an option to do better because one way or the other you are still dealing with men and women – you are still dealing with people.
> 
> Asking people out (and similar social exercises) is about as much as being stuck in a washing machine full of broken glass and sex is perennially disappointing. Dating is not worth the effort.
> 
> You're not going to find "that special someone" because no one is special, not really. Far too much hassle for far too little emotional or physical reward.
> 
> Take a step back, look at it plainly and simply and realize it is not worth the effort.
> 
> TILGUTI.



Wow. Is this a cry for help?


----------



## Rel

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> You're not going to find "that special someone" because no one is special, not really. Far too much hassle for far too little emotional or physical reward.
> 
> Take a step back, look at it plainly and simply and realize it is not worth the effort.




You seem a little grumpy.


----------



## The Grumpy Celt

Rel, A2Z...

pppbbbttt!!!

And I mean it.


----------



## Xath

Afrodyte said:
			
		

> This is precisely what makes it hard to deal with male friends (generally just gamer buddies) who suddenly express a desire to go out with me.  Honestly, I do not know how to handle it when a guy drops the bomb and says he likes me.  I'm not approached that often by men, let alone men I find attractive.  Then I have to deal with this roiling blob of feelings, intuitions, and thoughts.  Oftentimes I don't know how I _should_ feel about the person.  My instincts can tell me one thing, my mind another, and my body something entirely different.  I don't want to push a nice person away, but I don't want to put myself into a dangerous predicament either.  Although I'm sure that sharing this would be reassuring to a guy who's interested in me, I don't think I want to tell these thoughts and feelings to someone I barely know.  In my experience, when I have sued the "let's just be friends" line and then break off contact, it's been because most men, except those who are more "effeminate," don't really know how to be platonic friends with women.  Or rather, they do, but as long as they aren't reminded that they are dealing with a woman.  In other words, as long as sex and romance don't become the topic of conversation.




Absolutely exactly what I was trying to say.


----------



## Rel

The Grumpy Celt said:
			
		

> pppbbbttt!!!
> 
> And I mean it.




Well, I rest my case.


----------



## nerfherder

EvilBen said:
			
		

> DU (way back in post #200, I need to make sure I'm really on the last page before posting dag-nabbit!) is actually on to something, pick up a team sport (I too prefer rugby) *and* a hobby (theater did it for me).  They both will help you with social skills, and meeting people.  The sport will hep get you into shape (if needed) and help with confidence, and as long as one or both of the activities involve members of the oppisite sex, you will get to meet "womens" too.  And if nothing romantic comes of it, you have learned someting new, got in some exercise and probably made some new friends.
> 
> Broaden you cultural horizons, it will give you more to talk about than your 17th level ranger and his polar bear animal compainion next time you are in need of conversation fodder.



I don't know about in the US, but in the UK Salsa dancing clubs are quite popular.  Go along to a beginners class and you will be literally forced to interact with 20 or 30 women.  The great thing about dancing classes is a) they are more popular with women than men - think about your gaming group, but exchange women for men and b) you are made to swap dance partner every couple of minutes, so you are constantly saying hi to a new girl and having a good laugh with them.

Which reminds me, my local class starts up again tomorrow night after the holiday break   

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

> It sounds a lot like when I tell a girl "I'll call you" at the end of an evening, knowing that I have no intention of doing so. Telling her that I didn't have a good enough time to call her up again is not an action that bears any fruit for me whatsoever. As such, I don't do it.




see, i would never do that, i think it's evil.  as evil as "let's be friends" when you have no intention of being friends.

i value and appreciate blunt honesty.  i would much rather hear "you're not my type" than "let's just be friends".  and if i didn't enjoy a woman's company, i'd say "i don't think we're very compatible, and i wish you best of luck in your future endeavors".  i'm not going to leave her hanging expecting a call that will never come.

it's just plain not right.  it's not just non-good, it's a downright evil act to decieve someone in such a manner.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> ...it's just plain not right.  it's not just non-good, it's a downright evil act to decieve someone in such a manner.




Heh. Ok mna, if you say so. Though if _that_ is your high-water mark for evil, you should really see more of the world.

I'm not sure why you would place such a high premium on rudeness (or "blunt honesty" as you call it), and I am entirely uncertain why you think the following conversation... 

[bq]Me: "Thanks for the evening, I'll call you" 

Her: "Ok, bye bye"[/bq]

Is somehow more evil than

[bq]Me: "I don't think I'll be calling"

Her: "why not?"

Me: "You are not as interesting in person as you were described. Also you are fatter"[/bq]

Everyone thinks they want blunt honesty, but all that the elimination of the face-saving, feeling sparing white lies that make up a decent portion of what the majority of the folks in the world call Social Interaction does is ensure that people will feel terrible _most_ of the time, instead of _some of the time.

So when your Boss asks you if you like his new (and ugly) toupee, do you tell him "you look ing ridiculous. Take that thing off" or is your blunt honesty mitigated by financial compensation in the same way that your invioble taste in clothing is?

I don't think you want help Hida. I'm not sure what you do want, but you have shot down all advice given you here and in that "Are gamers this pathetic" thread._


----------



## Teflon Billy

nerfherder said:
			
		

> I don't know about in the US, but in the UK Salsa dancing clubs are quite popular.  Go along to a beginners class and you will be literally forced to interact with 20 or 30 women.  The great thing about dancing classes is a) they are more popular with women than men - think about your gaming group, but exchange women for men and b) you are made to swap dance partner every couple of minutes, so you are constantly saying hi to a new girl and having a good laugh with them...




Sounds like gold to me. But if the example we've seen thus far holds true, you are about to be told that he "isn't into Dancing"


----------



## Crothian

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Sounds like gold to me. But if the example we've seen thus far holds true, you are about to be told that he "isn't into Dancing"




Why would he?  It's exercise, it is so not what he thinks of himself doing, and it might actually work.  Three things he is obviously against.


----------



## Obryn

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> see, i would never do that, i think it's evil.  as evil as "let's be friends" when you have no intention of being friends.
> 
> i value and appreciate blunt honesty.  i would much rather hear "you're not my type" than "let's just be friends".  and if i didn't enjoy a woman's company, i'd say "i don't think we're very compatible, and i wish you best of luck in your future endeavors".  i'm not going to leave her hanging expecting a call that will never come.
> 
> it's just plain not right.  it's not just non-good, it's a downright evil act to decieve someone in such a manner.



Crap, I step away from the computer for 15 minutes, and already TB said most of what I wanted to say.

Look, you're trying to define everything in D&D terms again.  Social courtesy is not "evil"; it's expected.  If we didn't have it, I guarantee you you'd be a hell of a lot more depressed than you are now.  For instance, this whole thread we've been telling you how to not be creepy and improve your chances, and you've thrust aside every bit of helpful advice given to you.  

You don't want hard, honest reality - you want a convenient fiction of clear-cut good and evil where somehow a guy who puts no work into his appearance or behavior can meet and have sex with women.

In addition, if you can't take "Let's just be friends" or its ilk as a rejection, and understand it as such, I have to wonder what rock you've been under.  Sure, it's a case where someone doesn't say exactly what they mean, but that's par for the course with getting along in society.  You've created a possibly uncomfortable situation for the other person, and it's unfair to expect them to do anything than gently retreat if they're not interested.  They don't owe you candid honesty about their feelings.

-O


----------



## Teflon Billy

Obryn said:
			
		

> ...In addition, if you can't take "Let's just be friends" or its ilk as a rejection, and understand it as such, I have to wonder what rock you've been under.  Sure, it's a case where someone doesn't say exactly what they mean, but that's par for the course with getting along in society...




Which brings me back to my question about *Asperger's Syndrome*


----------



## Stone Angel

I agree with TB girls don't really like honesty too much. If she is wearing a horrible sweater and asks how she looks and you say not so good you see that translates to women as "Oh so you don't appreciate the 2.5 hours I just spent getting ready"

Girls like agreeability(is this even a word?) espicially when it is related to their three feet of personal space. 

Hida you are focusing on all the wrong things here. Your worried about pennies and nickles when you should be looking at your greenbacks. The best way to improve your comfort level around women is to talk and hang around them more. If you need to take baby steps take baby steps, if you need to be pushed in take a friend and have him drown you. Go to a bar have a few drinks and talk to as many girls as you can. I wish you were closer I would take you out and "help" you if I could.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


----------



## Pbartender

Stone Angel said:
			
		

> I agree with TB girls don't really like honesty too much. If she is wearing a horrible sweater and asks how she looks and you say not so good you see that translates to women as "Oh so you don't appreciate the 2.5 hours I just spent getting ready"
> 
> Girls like agreeability(is this even a word?) espicially when it is related to their three feet of personal space.




My wife, the exception...  and oddly enough this also ties in with TB's suggestions of being a little confrontatonal.

My wife, would smack me up side the head, if I lied to her about that sweater.  She'd rather hear the truth from me, know the sweater looks terrible, and change into something better looking, than have me lie to her about it, and end up looking like a fool amongst a crowd later that night.

In fact, when she asked last summer I told her flat out, "I don't know which swimsuit fits you better, but the one you're wearing makes you look fat."  She thanked me, and put the one suimsuit back on the shelf.l

My wife doesn't want me to be an .  She wants me to be confident and self-reliant enough to be able to take care of myself, to stand up for myself, and to stand up for her when she isn't able to.


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Heh. Ok mna, if you say so. Though if _that_ is your high-water mark for evil, you should really see more of the world.
> 
> I'm not sure why you would place such a high premium on rudeness (or "blunt honesty" as you call it), and I am entirely uncertain why you think the following conversation...
> 
> [bq]Me: "Thanks for the evening, I'll call you"
> 
> Her: "Ok, bye bye"[/bq]
> 
> Is somehow more evil than
> 
> [bq]Me: "I don't think I'll be calling"
> 
> Her: "why not?"
> 
> Me: "You are not as interesting in person as you were described. Also you are fatter"[/bq]




how about something in between those extremes.  something that doesn't leave her hanging waiting by the phone for you to call only to be crushed worse when you don't, and doesn't go out of its way to be rude.  a simple...

"i don't think we are very compatible" or

"you aren't my type"



> Everyone thinks they want blunt honesty, but all that the elimination of the face-saving, feeling sparing white lies that make up a decent portion of what the majority of the folks in the world call Social Interaction does is ensure that people will feel terrible _most_ of the time, instead of _some of the time._



_

there's a difference between a white lie and leading someone on.




			So when your Boss asks you if you like his new (and ugly) toupee, do you tell him "you look ing ridiculous. Take that thing off" or is your blunt honesty mitigated by financial compensation in the same way that your invioble taste in clothing is?
		
Click to expand...



"i'm sure it looks good to someone.  not to me, but that's cause i'm not attracted to men."




			I don't think you want help Hida. I'm not sure what you do want, but you have shot down all advice given you here and in that "Are gamers this pathetic" thread.
		
Click to expand...



i haven't shot down everything.  i have listened to some of what was said and am going to try those suggestions which fit who i am.  probably if i haven't shot something down i'm considering it.

i don't want to change who i am, however, i am striving to find a way to be a more successful form of myself.  while still being ME.

honestly all i really wanted to know was how to tell girls i think they're cute and would like to get to know them without offending them..._


----------



## Obryn

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i haven't shot down everything.  i have listened to some of what was said and am going to try those suggestions which fit who i am.  probably if i haven't shot something down i'm considering it.
> 
> i don't want to change who i am, however, i am striving to find a way to be a more successful form of myself.  while still being ME.



OK.  Which are you taking and which aren't you taking?

I certainly hope you don't define yourself by not-bathing, not-exercising, and wearing smelly clothes.

-O


----------



## Pbartender

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i don't want to change who i am, however, i am striving to find a way to be a more successful form of myself.  while still being ME.




*STEP 1:* Well, then...  In 100 words or less, who are you?  And why?



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> honestly all i really wanted to know was how to tell girls i think they're cute and would like to get to know them without offending them...




Say it with me now, "Hey, you're kind of cute.  What's you're name?"


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

i've been trying to bathe whenever i leave the apt at this point.  even when it's just a taco bell run or the grocery store.  that's why i was seriously considering trying to talk to the girl i saw there, cause i had bathed and put deoderant on and everything

exercising is more something i know i should do, but being a low WIS guy, the short-term pain and lack of immediate gratification nature of exercise, tend to combine into me not doing it.  it always comes down to "i'll excercise later..."  i know that's a problem i need to fix.  dieting is something that i know is beyond my ability however.  i just don't have the willpower to resist the delicious taste of snacks... nor do i have the willpower to close the bag once i open it until i'm stuffed.  however, i have managed to replace drinking 2 liters of pop a day with drinking 2 quarts of kool-aid (made with half the sugar the recipe calls for!) a day.

and i wear clean shirts whenever i go out.  and clean underwear and socks too.  i reuse pants for a few days though.  but i never wear the same pants out that i sleep in.


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

Pbartender said:
			
		

> *STEP 1:* Well, then...  In 100 words or less, who are you?  And why?




I am... a gamer geek.  and proud of it.  the greatest joy in the world is to play.  whether that's a video game, a board game, an RPG, or whatever.  there's nothing like taking on a mental challenge that's safe from real-life consequences for failure.  i love the amusement park, i'm just a little boy at heart.  i'm a rebel and non-conformist.  i don't like being told what to do, or doing something because everyone else does it.  i'm an ex-christian who's currently an agnostic.  i have a high sex drive and perverted, twisted sense of humor.  star wars rules.

that's all i can squeeze in to the 100 word limit.


----------



## Arcane Runes Press

Writing under my husband's account here.  Just wanted to chime in and say, darn guys.  Some of y'all are bitter for very little reason.  

Point #1:  A girl desires confidence just like men do.  I get far more attention when self-confident.  Just like MEN.  Shocking isn't it?

Point #2:  Please please please don't take dating so bloody seriously.  If they say "I'm not interested" or just interested in friendship, it's not like they killed your soul.  You really will live again.  The problem is when you've already moved her into your apartment mentally and you haven't even talked to her.  Or, we might be interested at first then find out you aren't as interesting (to this particular woman) as she thought.  It isn't a tease.  It's getting to know someone.  

Point #3:  Plumage really is important.  It isn't shallow, she just doesn't know you!  All she has to go on at first is physical.  

Point #4:  Teflon Billy is wise, from what I've seen.  Therefore, hot.  How YOU doin?

Point #5:  All harshness aside, I married a nice guy.  I dated nice guys almost exclusively.  Any jerks, when found out, were tossed aside like trash.  We really do dig nice guys, just not whiny ones. 

Jennifer Younts


----------



## whyrph

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> dieting is something that i know is beyond my ability however.  i just don't have the willpower to resist the delicious taste of snacks... nor do i have the willpower to close the bag once i open it until i'm stuffed.  however, i have managed to replace drinking 2 liters of pop a day with drinking 2 quarts of kool-aid (made with half the sugar the recipe calls for!) a day.




If you can't resist opening the bags, then _don't buy junk food in the first place_.  It can't be that hard to resist at the store, can it?  Maybe if you don't buy any for a couple weeks you'll see how much money you save without the .


----------



## Crothian

Arcane Runes Press' wife said:
			
		

> Point #4:  Teflon Billy is wise, from what I've seen.  Therefore, hot.  How YOU doin?




Damn that was funny!!!


----------



## Crothian

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> I am... a gamer geek.  and proud of it.  the greatest joy in the world is to play.  whether that's a video game, a board game, an RPG, or whatever.  there's nothing like taking on a mental challenge that's safe from real-life consequences for failure.  i love the amusement park, i'm just a little boy at heart.  i'm a rebel and non-conformist.  i don't like being told what to do, or doing something because everyone else does it.  i'm an ex-christian who's currently an agnostic.  i have a high sex drive and perverted, twisted sense of humor.  star wars rules.




It amazes me how a lot of the "non-conformists" are so much alike.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> how about something in between those extremes.  something that doesn't leave her hanging waiting by the phone for you to call only to be crushed worse when you don't, and doesn't go out of its way to be rude.  a simple...
> 
> "i don't think we are very compatible" or
> 
> "you aren't my type"




let me tell you where it goes from there friend. it goes like this...

[bq]Why not?[/bq]

How does your blunt honesty handle the situation now.



			
				Hida said:
			
		

> "i'm sure it looks good to someone.  not to me, but that's cause i'm not attracted to men."




[bq]"I'm not asking you for a date Hida, I'm just asking if you think it looks good on me. So....?"[/bq]

Is blunt honesty (it looks like crap) going to serve you well?

And you still haven't answered if financial compensation wil make you lie in _this_ situation. How about it? Is your blunt honesty for sale?




			
				Hida said:
			
		

> honestly all i really wanted to know was how to tell girls i think they're cute and would like to get to know them without offending them...




Well certainly you can understadn how post #76 from this thread, where you said....



			
				Hida said:
			
		

> ...i'm not neccessarily looking for a monogamous relationship, i'm looking to get laid by someone i find attractive, and if that can be by someone who i ALSO click with personality-wise, then so much the better...




...might have led me to believe something different.

You're on your own from here out Hida. Good luck to you in your future endeavors.


----------



## Torm

Pbartender said:
			
		

> My wife, would smack me up side the head, if I lied to her about that sweater.



Mine, too. But, there _is_ a difference between "you look bad in that" and "that doesn't make you look your best."  Both are still true....  

Hida - the thing I posted earlier about vhemt.org was taken as a sarcastic response to another poster, but I wasn't entirely kidding. If you're really that uncomfortable, maybe you should bear in mind how much dating is going to cut into your gaming time and budget, and that there are already over 6 _billion_ of us, and give it a pass. Legacy is a stupid, stupid reason to be worried about getting married and having kids - especially when there are so many other ways to have a legacy.

My wife and I were very young when we got married and had kids - and I wouldn't take it back, now that they are here. But, in your shoes, without a pre-existing family, knowing what I know now, I don't think I'd give potential children as hostages to fortune in this old, screwed up world. We're programmed to be "breeders" by society and family from when we are very small, but that's not necessarily the only healthy choice - it may not even be *a* healthy choice at this point in time.....


----------



## Torm

Crothian said:
			
		

> It amazes me how a lot of the "non-conformists" are so much alike.



"I'm different, special, and unique.... just like everyone else."


----------



## Pbartender

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> I am... a gamer geek.  and proud of it.  the greatest joy in the world is to play.  whether that's a video game, a board game, an RPG, or whatever.




Alright.  Fair enough.  Everyone here is.  Just be careful how you spin it to an unknown girl you're trying to hit on.  Treat your gaming like a weekly poker game, and explain it to her that way.  Hopefully, she'll think of it as something you do occassionally with your own friends to blow off steam...  Assuming she doesn't play herself.

Treat it like a harmless hobby, not an obsession.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> ...there's nothing like taking on a mental challenge *that's safe from real-life consequences for failure.*




This, I think, is your real problem.  Games are safe from real world consequences.  If something goes wrong, you reboot the 'puter, or roll up a new character sheet.  You cling to that.

You need to work up a little courage and realize two things...  1. Most real world consequences for failure in dating circle aren't nearly as bad as you think.  2. You'll never succeed if you don't at least try.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i love the amusement park, i'm just a little boy at heart.




Perfect.  Focus on that.  Taking a girl to an amusement park is a great day-long date.  Plenty of time to get to know her.  Scary rides offer plentiful chances for her to cozy up.  And the whole date can be passed off as more fun than romantic, if things don't pan out.

In addition, I'd encourage you to bone up on the hobbies and activities you enjoy outside of gaming.  Be a little more well rounded...  mentally speaking.  



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i'm a rebel and non-conformist.  i don't like being told what to do, or doing something because everyone else does it.




That's right...  You're just like all the other non-conformists.

So knock that  off.

Corrollary: Just because you do something everyone else does, doesn't mean you are not an individual.

Being contrary for the sake of being contrary is stupid.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i'm an ex-christian who's currently an agnostic.




Nothing wrong with that, but I'd recommend using 'dinner table' rules on dates...  Until you know where she stands or until she directly asks you, avoid religion and politics.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i have a high sex drive and perverted, twisted sense of humor.




Nice shootin', there Tex.  Keep 'em in check and under wraps, until she gives a green light.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> star wars rules.




It certainly does.  

*STEP 2:* Cleanliness is next to godliness.

You are already headed in the right direction.  However, you need to make it a daily habit, not just a going out thing.

_*EVERY*_ morning: Wake up, take a shower, wash your hair, brush your teeth, shave (or trim your beam/mustache), comb your hair, put on clean clothes.  Not only will you look better, but you will feel better.  Both of those combined will immediately raise others' impression of you.

Next, go get a good haircut.  When you get to the barbershop, and the barber asks you how you would like it cut, say, "Nothing too fancy, but I've got a hot date tonight.  Make me look good."  Then, give the barber a good tip when he's done.  Repeat this at least once a month.


----------



## Obryn

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i've been trying to bathe whenever i leave the apt at this point.  even when it's just a taco bell run or the grocery store.  that's why i was seriously considering trying to talk to the girl i saw there, cause i had bathed and put deoderant on and everything



Like pbartender said, it's not a "when you go out" thing.  It's an "I have respect for myself and am doing this for myself" thing.



> exercising is more something i know i should do, but being a low WIS guy, the short-term pain and lack of immediate gratification nature of exercise, tend to combine into me not doing it.  it always comes down to "i'll excercise later..."



There you are trying to turn real life into a D&D game again.  This is another way to hide from reality and another way to try and justify your behavior without changing it.



> i know that's a problem i need to fix.  dieting is something that i know is beyond my ability however.  i just don't have the willpower to resist the delicious taste of snacks... nor do i have the willpower to close the bag once i open it until i'm stuffed.  however, i have managed to replace drinking 2 liters of pop a day with drinking 2 quarts of kool-aid (made with half the sugar the recipe calls for!) a day.



Switch to diet pop.  I don't care if you don't like it now; I didn't either at first.  Drink it for a few weeks.  Some people lose weight just by switching to diet soda... there's a HUGE difference in calories and a very small difference in taste.

It is not "beyond your ability" to diet.  Bull.  Crap.  Nobody's coming to your house and shoving a Twinkie in your mouth.  You control what enters your body.  And if hooking up is important to you, ask yourself what's more important - that double quarter pounder and large fries, or sex.

If you can't stop eating snack food, DON'T BUY IT.  I honestly have the same problem, and that's been my solution.  Dude, not too long ago, I was a huge fat*ss.  But I lost 85 lbs by finding willpower reserves I didn't know I had.  I'm not precisely skinny nowadays, but I can't tell you how much better I liked myself after that.



> and i wear clean shirts whenever i go out.  and clean underwear and socks too.  i reuse pants for a few days though.  but i never wear the same pants out that i sleep in.



Good enough.    Now try some things that you like, that fit you well, and that aren't t-shirts.  It will help, too.

-O


----------



## msd

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i've been trying to bathe whenever i leave the apt at this point...   that's why i was seriously considering trying to talk to the girl i saw there, cause i had bathed and put deoderant on and everything...and i wear clean shirts whenever i go out.  and clean underwear and socks too.  i reuse pants for a few days though.  but i never wear the same pants out that i sleep in.




Honestly, I have kept up on this entire thread for days now and have kept my mouth shut in keeping with the rule of "if you don't have something nice to say...", but enough is enough.

If what follows is perceived as rude or deserving of reprimand then so be it.  I do not apologize, but will accept whatever follows.

Hida...you're 27 and more than a few people are having to tell you things that I just spent 2 weeks reminding my niece about over X-mas holidays...she's 4.

Every morning is a routine.  That routine includes bathing, shaving, putting deodarant, brushing your teeth, and putting on a fresh set of clothes....every morning...without fail...in all cases...with no exceptions.  For the love of all that is holy, most children know what you are having to be told...repeatedly...at age 27.

You know what?  You've gotten some valuable advice in this thread from a lot of different people.  And you know what else?  None of it will do you a damn bit of good...none of it.  If repeated reminders to bathe daily only invokes on your part a "I try...but I still put on the stankpants day after day" and your own embarrassment at your behavior is insufficient to change your ways, nothing these fine people can say will help.

Honestly, at age 27?  You should be mortified at some of the things you've written here...forget about girls for now and the immediate future...put your own house in order.


----------



## Pbartender

*STEP 3:* Your body is a temple.

Losing weight, should you choose to do so, is not that difficult, it just takes patience and tenacity.

Simply put, there are only three ways to reliably lose weight (fat):
1. Eat less.
2. Exercise more.
3. Eat less and exercise more.

Or, for those math geeks out there... Calories in < Calories burned == Weight loss.

Tips for "dieting":

1. Throw out all your junk food, and replace it with fresh fruits and vegetables.  The fruit and veggies will have fewer calories, virtually no fat or cholesterol, and will provide you with much needed vitamins and minerals.  This alone will help help you look and feel healthier.

2. Stop drinking soda.  It's carbonated sugar water.  Drink water.  Drink black coffee, if you need caffeine.  Drink diet soda, or fruit juice, if you need flavor.  Drinking one less can of soda per day is roughly equal to a weight loss of one pound per week for most people, if all else stays the same.

3. Learn how to cook.  It's not as tough as you might think.  And with a good cookbook, you can cook your own healthy tastey meals without all the garbage that makes it bad for you.

4. Eat smaller portions.  Take your dinner.  Put half of everything back into a tupperware dish and stick in the fridge for dinner tomorrow night.  Now eat the half that's still on your plate.  Then stop.  Do this for a month, and you'll get used to it real quick.  You'll wonder how you ever ate so much before.

Exercising:

The important thing about exercising is finding something you enjoy enough to do on a regular basis.  Any kind of exercise is good exercise, even if it's just taking a half hour walk after dinner every evening.

If you don't want to go to a gym, find something else...  Enroll in a martial arts class.  Take dancing lessons.  Buy a bicycle, and ride it instead of your car.  Take the stairs instead of an elevator.  Apply for a job that requires manual labor.

Exercise is only difficult to begin with.  Once you start getting into shape, it's less painful, more enjoyable, and often relaxing.  As with everything else, it'll make you look and feel better.  That gives you confidence.  That'll get you girls.

MORE IMPORTANTLY: Good diet and good exercise keeps you healthly.  It'll reduce your resting heart rate, reduce your blood pressure, reduce you fat and cholesterol levels, and give you more energy in general.


----------



## Pbartender

*STEP 4:* "The ladies go crazy for a sharp dressed man!"

ZZ Top said it best.

Now, you don't need to be a trend setter, but you do want to stop looking like a slob.  No girl worth anything wants to date a guy schlepping around in a grubby t-shirt and sweatpants.

Remeber...  Good Taste never goes out of style.

So, stick all of your old t-shirts in the back of your closet.  Keep them for saturday mornings, cleaning days, and the occasional game night with the buddies... ONLY.  Whenever else, once you wake up, get dressed in respetable, clean clothes.

Now, there's no need to break the bank with new clothes.  Buy what you can afford, but make certain it all fits you properly.

Go buy a pair or two of decent blue jeans, and a pair of two of some nice khaki pants.  Pick up a couple of shirts with buttons and collars on them.  Get a few sweaters.  Keep them simple...  That's a great "guy" trick.  Clothes of simple cut and pattern are easier to match.

As someone earlier suggested, if you are uncertain, go ask the opinion of the nearest female salesperson.  She will know what you will look good in, and will tell you so when you try things on...  What a great confidence booster, eh?


----------



## Pbartender

*STEP 5:* Do it!

Your on your own now.  Find a girl and converse.


----------



## Obryn

Hey, Pb!  I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents regarding weight loss...



			
				Pbartender said:
			
		

> 1. Throw out all your junk food, and replace it with fresh fruits and vegetables.  The fruit and veggies will have fewer calories, virtually no fat or cholesterol, and will provide you with much needed vitamins and minerals.  This alone will help help you look and feel healthier.



Quoted for truth.  Honestly, I'd rather have an orange nowadays than most candy.  Try it out for a week or 2.  See how it works.



> 2. Stop drinking soda.  It's carbonated sugar water.  Drink water.  Drink black coffee, if you need caffeine.  Drink diet soda, or fruit juice, if you need flavor.  Drinking one less can of soda per day is roughly equal to a weight loss of one pound per week for most people, if all else stays the same.



I'll agree with everything except the fruit juice for weight loss.  Fruit juice is fine for when you're not trying to drop pounds, but it has close to as many calories as soda.  Milk's up there too.  They're healthy, don't get me wrong - but not low-cal.  Eat an apple instead of drinking apple juice, or an orange instead of orange juice.



> 3. Learn how to cook.  It's not as tough as you might think.  And with a good cookbook, you can cook your own healthy tastey meals without all the garbage that makes it bad for you.



Foreman grill + chicken + spices = mmmm....



> The important thing about exercising is finding something you enjoy enough to do on a regular basis.  Any kind of exercise is good exercise, even if it's just taking a half hour walk after dinner every evening.



Again, quoted for truth.  My primary exercise while on a diet is walking 30-60 minutes per day.  Get an mp3 player and listen to music on your walks.  Or get a friend to go with you.  Even this little bit of exercise helps your metabolism kick in and helps you burn more calories.



> MORE IMPORTANTLY: Good diet and good exercise keeps you healthly.  It'll reduce your resting heart rate, reduce your blood pressure, reduce you fat and cholesterol levels, and give you more energy in general.



...and hopefully will help you like yourself better so that maybe, just maybe, you'll work on other ways to improve yourself.  And not be creepy.

-O


----------



## Droid101

Okay, I have mostly just dropped in to say how much this thread is making me laugh, but I'm going to get serious a moment.

Hida just mentioned how saying "I'll call you" and not doing it is evil.  Saying how he has a low Wisdom score, so he won't work out.  Saying how he's a gamer at heart and likes Star Wars.

Jebus...

Drop it already.  None of that will help you when it comes to girls.

If you ever actually go up to a girl and talk to one (wait until you follow ALL of the lifestyle changing advice from Pbartender and otheres to do so, for the love of Christ) DO NOT engage in Star Wars or gaming talk.

If she asks "What do you like to do?"  You don't answer "Dungeons and Dragons."  You answer "Play games with my friends."

If she asks "What do you like?"  You don't say "Star Wars rocks!"  You say "I like movies."

I hate to be mean, but in this life, most people don't understand gamers, and most don't want to try.  Don't try to explain it or debate it or rationalize it.  Just don't mention it.  It's not worth it.

That's all I got.  Here's what you gotta do:

1.  Get in shape and clean up your own life.  Following all of Pbartender's tips will get you well on your way.

2.  Practice talking to girls.  If one waves, go up and say hi.  You don't have to start a relationship.  You just have to say hi.  How are you?  What's your name?  Where you from?  Go to school?  Whatever!  It'll get you on your way.

3.  Once you have talked to many girls, then try to get a phone number from the next one you talk to where the conversation is going well.

4.  Finally, here you can follow Teflon Billy's advice and be a little jerky.  But you must be "proficient" at the first three!!!

One step at a time.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

mythago said:
			
		

> Or, that she's one of those adrenaline addicts who will, if the relationship is going smoothly, screw it up because she needs a certain level of tension or she gets bored.




Chaos girl. 

Dated her.

(And since this was back when I was still trying nice guy, let me add: For waaaaaaaay too long.)

I escaped, but not unchanged.


Wulf


----------



## devilish

Wulf Ratbane said:
			
		

> Chaos girl.
> 
> Dated her.
> 
> (And since this was back when I was still trying nice guy, let me add: For waaaaaaaay too long.)
> 
> I escaped, but not unchanged.
> 
> 
> Wulf




Something simliar for me..  I think a lot of guys experience her at one point. 

I wonder if there is just one incarnation of the iconic Chaos girl - like a Randall Flagg or
something....travelling the world from man to man...?


----------



## Piratecat

Ahhh, comedy.

http://www.loserzcomic.com


----------



## Torm

Pretty apt, Piratecat - but Teflon Billy looks a little scrawny in that last frame, compared to his picture in his posts.


----------



## Hellzon

Pbartender said:
			
		

> Exercising:
> 
> The important thing about exercising is finding something you enjoy enough to do on a regular basis.  Any kind of exercise is good exercise, even if it's just taking a half hour walk after dinner every evening.
> [...]
> Exercise is only difficult to begin with.  Once you start getting into shape, it's less painful, more enjoyable, and often relaxing.  As with everything else, it'll make you look and feel better.  That gives you confidence.  That'll get you girls.




Now we're talking! As for exercising to burn fat, note that there is a max amount of calories you can burn per hour, and it's a tad low. So, a long walk (half an hour minimum) is better for burning fat than a quick jog.

Now, this pharmacy nerd will be off again...


----------



## nerfherder

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> nerfherder said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about in the US, but in the UK Salsa dancing clubs are quite popular.  Go along to a beginners class and you will be literally forced to interact with 20 or 30 women.  The great thing about dancing classes is a) they are more popular with women than men - think about your gaming group, but exchange women for men and b) you are made to swap dance partner every couple of minutes, so you are constantly saying hi to a new girl and having a good laugh with them.
> 
> Which reminds me, my local class starts up again tomorrow night after the holiday break
> 
> Cheers,
> Liam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like gold to me. But if the example we've seen thus far holds true, you are about to be told that he "isn't into Dancing"
Click to expand...


Well, that's his loss.  I spent this evening dancing & chatting with about 50 women, of whom about a dozen were very good looking to stunning, a couple of dozen average to decent looking ones and about a dozen that weren't my type.  Conversation was easy ("oh my god, how do you do that last move he showed us?"), and it is absolutely expected that you go and ask people to dance, so there is no worry about coming across as a creep (which I think is the actual topic of this thread...).  A simple "Hi, would you like to practice" always gets a response of "sure".  After a while, you even get women coming up to you and asking if you'd like to dance.

The other advantage is that when you do chat to other women outside of the class and they ask what you like to do for fun, instead of saying that you like to hang round with a bunch of guys playing with toy soldiers and rolling dice, you can say "Oh, I go salsa dancing", which always gets a good reaction and leads into conversation about where you go, what nights, etc.

However, and I don't think that this can be emphasised enough, even though almost every other post in this thread has mentioned it, you MUST be clean and freshly groomed before going dancing.

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## Teflon Billy

Torm said:
			
		

> Pretty apt, Piratecat - but Teflon Billy looks a little scrawny in that last frame, compared to his picture in his posts.




Jebus...bulk that guy up and it's me! Right down to the necklace!


----------



## msd

Ahhh...still, the best part of this thread (if I only had to pick one...and let's face it...no one wants to do that at this point) is the fact that it's got the WOTC News icon attached to it.

WOTC News...makes me laugh every time.


----------



## Xath

What?  It has the "Love" icon next to it.


----------



## msd

Xath said:
			
		

> What?  It has the "Love" icon next to it.




Not for me...I get the WOTC News, which, I hope you'll agree...makes this thread a lot funnier...

Love icon...pfffft...how bumblingly obvious


----------



## Thotas

Okay, I know this is picking something up from a couple of pages ago, but yeah, love how the avowed nonconformists of this world all have their groups of people within which they all copy each other.  It's why one of my favorite commercials of all time is that Dr. Pepper one from the 70's.  "I'm a Pepper, he's a Pepper, she's a Pepper ... wouldn't you like to be a Pepper too?  Drink Dr. Pepper ... the most _Original_ soft drink in the whole wide world."  Yeah, be original, copy us.  

And the whole "Be yourself, Improve yourself" thing is good advice for everyone on the planet, to point of being not just good advice but a good philosophy.  No matter what is or isn't happening in your love life.


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

whyrph said:
			
		

> If you can't resist opening the bags, then _don't buy junk food in the first place_.  It can't be that hard to resist at the store, can it?  Maybe if you don't buy any for a couple weeks you'll see how much money you save without the .




actually, i have literally driven to the store at 3 am just to satisfy a snack craving - even if i have snacks at the apt, i will sometimes get a jones for a particular flavor.  it's like a junkie needing a fix.



			
				Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> let me tell you where it goes from there friend. it goes like this...
> 
> Why not?
> 
> How does your blunt honesty handle the situation now.




if personality:  "well, we just seem to not be on the same wavelength as far as interests/values/goals/whatever they don't match up with me on"

if looks:  "different people are attracted to different types of people.  nothing against you, but i'm not attracted to you."

ways to be polite while still telling the truth.



> "I'm not asking you for a date Hida, I'm just asking if you think it looks good on me. So....?"




"And i'm saying i don't have an opinion on the matter.  ask someone qualified, since nowhere in my job description does it read 'fashion consultant'.  now if you don't mind, i'd like to get back to being productive with my time here and doing the job you pay me for, i would think you would want to be getting your money's worth out of your employee doing his actual job instead of occupying his time with irrelevant non-work-related chatter."

when it comes to being "for sale" it's simply this.  "dressing up" - ie wearing things other than what i want to wear - is an unpleasant task.  so is working.  but unfortunately, one needs money in order to survive.  therefore, i sell my time (and since they own my time they can make me wear the required uniform) in order to eat.

going out with a girl is supposed to be fun.  if i'm not having fun, she's not worth being with.  if i'm having to hide who i am and be someone i'm not, i'm not having fun.



			
				Torm said:
			
		

> Legacy is a stupid, stupid reason to be worried about getting married and having kids - especially when there are so many other ways to have a legacy.




not looking to get married and have kids.  looking for fun.  i plan to use condoms if and when i do get a chance to engage in the more physical forms of fun.  kids are too much of a responsibility.

(in response to various people)

one thing i'm not getting is why would i waste time showering if i'm not even going to leave my apt?


----------



## Humanophile

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> one thing i'm not getting is why would i waste time showering if i'm not even going to leave my apt?




I forget who said this, but it bears repeating.  Do you want to be you, or do you want to be the sort of guy who gets attention?  You needn't change who you fundamentally are, but a person who's schedule is so empty that they can spend a day without going out is a little off-putting (and dull besides).  Go find activities to be in so you have no days you won't leave the apartment.

Besides which, you don't want stank to permeate you.  A few days of worn-in grime do not magically fade away with one quick shower.



> actually, i have literally driven to the store at 3 am just to satisfy a snack craving - even if i have snacks at the apt, i will sometimes get a jones for a particular flavor.  it's like a junkie needing a fix.




Since my first post here, I've advocated baby steps.  I'm sure you can guess where this'll go.

Prepare some carrots/celery stalks/cucumbers/whatever you might like ahead of time.  Have them easily on hand for when a craving hits.  Try to develop a taste for healthier snacks.  Once you get a good habit going, it tends to perpetuate itself.

And the same idea applies to exercise.  Don't think you need a gym membership and solid resolve to get in shape; most people with that attitude end up using about a month of their year's membership.  Just try to take baby steps.  Find physical activities you enjoy, and try to build a habit.  This ties into the "find more hobbies" suggestion; develop a walking routine, start byclicing more instead of driving, or even sign up for a martial arts course.  Unique individuals like you seem to take quite well to martial arts, in my experience.



> "And i'm saying i don't have an opinion on the matter.  ask someone qualified, since nowhere in my job description does it read 'fashion consultant'.  now if you don't mind, i'd like to get back to being productive with my time here and doing the job you pay me for, i would think you would want to be getting your money's worth out of your employee doing his actual job instead of occupying his time with irrelevant non-work-related chatter."




Do go some research on that Aspergers condition.  Really.  If you can't see how rudeness like that tends not to bode well for continued employment, you need severe remedial training before chatting up girls is even remotely feasable.

Ironically, there are methods of misdirection one can use to avoid lying while still not hurting feelings.  They tend to resemble brutal honesty in the same way that my computer resembles a llama.  One needs social grace and tact, both of which you admittedly need to work on, and even then the truth has to get bent a little.



> when it comes to being "for sale" it's simply this.  "dressing up" - ie wearing things other than what i want to wear - is an unpleasant task.  so is working.  but unfortunately, one needs money in order to survive.  therefore, i sell my time (and since they own my time they can make me wear the required uniform) in order to eat.
> 
> going out with a girl is supposed to be fun.  if i'm not having fun, she's not worth being with.  if i'm having to hide who i am and be someone i'm not, i'm not having fun.




Advanced logic here:

Wearing clothes you don't like subtracts a certain amount of happiness.

Going out with a girl you like adds a certain amount of happiness.

Add the two values together.  There are legitimately times when all the hassles and pressures a girl puts on you can be greater than the benefits you get from it; that's when you kick her to the curb.  However, to put this into gaming terms for you, you sound like you're explaining keeping a +1 longsword over a +5 mace because you don't want to lose your Weapon Focus bonus.  If you can legitimately say that you'd be happier alone in your own clothes than spruced up on a date, there's no point to this thread for anyone involved.  You have to answer for yourself whether you find the potential happiness rewards worth the up-front costs.

(You also have to keep in mind that the girl is running very much the same equation in her head.  It's incredibly foolish to expect her to bend over backwards to make you happy while you exert no efforts on her behalf.  You've avoided answering how you, Hida Bukkorosu, are going to make this worth her while/enjoyable for her.  Give at least some thought to that.)



> not looking to get married and have kids.  looking for fun.  i plan to use condoms if and when i do get a chance to engage in the more physical forms of fun.  kids are too much of a responsibility.




...And here you jump all over the place.

It's time for a straight answer, Hida.  Are you looking to get laid, or are you learning how to get yourself into a position where you're socially apt?

If it's the former, prostitution's your only real answer.  I know this'll hurt your pride, but if you see "physical pleasure" as being the primary function of a woman, she has a right to ask for financial compensation in return.  Yes, I know that she might also get pleasure out of the deal; you have to accept that the cute girls can get far better than you if they're just looking for a quickie.  So payment or some really desperate/jaded/ugly girl are the extent of your chances here.

If it's the latter, realize that you're going to have to work on some personal growth before relationship/sex issues are even remotely feasable for you.  You've clearly changed before; calling yourself a _former_ fundamentalist christian kind of implies that.  So you have to put your pride on the line and ask yourself if the up-front costs in effort and "happiness" are worth the potential rewards down the line.

And remember.  Nobody's telling you that you have to give up things you love, take up things you hate, or pretend to be your polar oposite.  All we're saying is to experiment with growing in certain directions, picking up new hobbies/habits, and seeing how well those take.


----------



## Jonny Nexus

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> actually, i have literally driven to the store at 3 am just to satisfy a snack craving - even if i have snacks at the apt, i will sometimes get a jones for a particular flavor.  it's like a junkie needing a fix.




Well at the end of the day, it comes down to your willpower. If you want to be the sort of person who doesn't over-consume snack foods then you have to stop over-consuming them.

Saying that you don't have much willpower is an explanation not a justification. It's like someone saying that they don't give any money to charity because they're an uncaring person. They've explained their behaviour, but they haven't justified it. People listening to them, who'd previously been disapproving of their meanness, aren't going to hear that and then say, "Oh well that's okay then. It's not your fault, it's just because you're uncaring."

So it's like the advice they give to alcoholics: the only person who can make you stop drinking is yourself, and you have to want to stop. (Except that in your case it applies to snacking).



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> one thing i'm not getting is why would i waste time showering if i'm not even going to leave my apt?




Well for me, I take a shower or bath each morning when I get up because if I don't I feel a bit dirty and unclean, and afterwards I feel all fresh and refreshed. To me, not having a shower because I'm staying in all day would be a bit like not eating breakfast or taking a piss because I'm staying in all day.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> ..."And i'm saying i don't have an opinion on the matter.  ask someone qualified, since nowhere in my job description does it read 'fashion consultant'.  now if you don't mind, i'd like to get back to being productive with my time here and doing the job you pay me for, i would think you would want to be getting your money's worth out of your employee doing his actual job instead of occupying his time with irrelevant non-work-related chatter."




Ahh, so it _is_ rudeness that you value.

Do you honestly not see how that's rude? the case for Asperger's gets stronger and stronger.

Oh, and by the way, later that day the boss gives you two weeks notice. If that.


----------



## msd

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> one thing i'm not getting is why would i waste time showering if i'm not even going to leave my apt?




Let's fast-forward this a little bit.  You make small talk with the girl...she likes you and you like her and after some period of time, she agrees to come over.  You are about to leave for the movies and she asks to use the bathroom.

When is the last time you cleaned your bathroom?  With Lysol and Windex and a mop and the whole thing?

Cleanliness and keeping yourself and your place clean is not another chore.  It's a way of life and a part of who you are as a person and it doesn't really matter whether you think so or not, because others will...

You don't want to change who you are, how you behave, how you interact with other people, and yet you started this thread with "how do I hit on girls...what I'm doing is not working...help me".

Do us a favor and figure out what it is you really want and then get back to us.


----------



## Rel

msd said:
			
		

> Do us a favor and figure out what it is you really want and then get back to us.




I'm pretty sure that I can answer this.  I don't mean to put words in to Hida's mouth so, please Hida, let me know if I'm off base here:

What he truly wants is for us to tell him some super-secret, ninja pickup technique guaranteed to make chicks want to screw his brains out without him having to do much of anything at all.

And, let's be honest, that would be a pretty cool thing to master.  I'll further mention that it is very easy to do, provided that you have one of two things:

1) Brad Pitt's looks

OR

2) Donald Trump's money (That's the theory.  In practice, I think you could get away with Brad Pitt's money.)

The other method that has gotten good results is the "Be a Jerk" schtick, most capably demonstrated by Teflon Billy.  But it is NEVER going to work for Hida because it requires you to be Cool and Confident.  He is neither and probably won't be because he doesn't want to change.

The final resort is what many of us have done and that is simply to try to be a decent, admirable person most of the time.  But I don't think this is much of an option for Hida either.  Most of the threads I've seen him start have been about how he can obtain something for himself in a way that requires the least amount of effort.  He wants to live a life of hedonism involving copious amounts of yummy food, good gaming and hot chicks.  But it would be preferable if he didn't have to do anything to get them.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with this attitude and I think we've pretty much all experienced a phase of it.  But we mostly outgrew it when we were 8 to 10 years old (if not before).

Thusly, my final bit of advice is this:  If what other people have told you in this thread seems too hard, Hida, then your best bet is to play the lottery and hope you win.


----------



## Droid101

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> one thing i'm not getting is why would i waste time showering if i'm not even going to leave my apt?



He's got to be trolling now... right?


----------



## Xath

I have a question Hida.  Where are you trying to pick up girls?  27 year olds aren't _that_ uncommon on a college campus, but your average girl is going to run the 18-22 range.  And if you look your age, approaching a girl like that may automatically come across as creepy.  Have you tried bars or clubs?  Where are you going?


----------



## Orblivia

Droid101 said:
			
		

> He's got to be trolling now... right?





Droid,

This may be the best TtP ever.

I thought so after that. I shower daily it happens when I awke. I don't even think about it, I just get into the shower.


----------



## Droid101

Orblivia said:
			
		

> Droid,
> 
> This may be the best ThP ever.


----------



## tarchon

Orblivia said:
			
		

> I thought so after that. I shower daily it happens when I awke. I don't even think about it, I just get into the shower.




You guys don't get to cons much, do ya?  
It's funny how disruptive it is when you turn on that inviting hot water in the morning and find that your hot water heater has cancelled the invitation.


----------



## Orblivia

tarchon said:
			
		

> You guys don't get to cons much, do ya?
> It's funny how disruptive it is when you turn on that inviting hot water in the morning and find that your hot water heater has cancelled the invitation.




Actually I have. The RPGA area now has a rule people need to not be running for stankpants of the year. They now reserve the right to turn the filthy away.

And yanno what? A quick cold shower happens. I don't own the stankpants.
Invigorating, your now wide awake to go play! 

No need for coffee!!


----------



## The Shaman

Orblivia said:
			
		

> Actually I have. The RPGA area now has a rule people need to not be running for stankpants of the year. They now reserve the right to turn the filthy away.



Am I the only person that finds disconcerting that the RPGA needed to make a rule for that?

   :\ 

It's like the big sign that reads "No Picnicking" at the National Cemetery in Arlington.

This thread is by turns hilariously funny and deeply disturbing.

Chaos Grrrl went by the name of Sherri when she blew through my life, BTW, and thank you very much for bringing back THOSE memories.

   :\


----------



## tarchon

Something for the pick-up line thread: "Hey baby, you make me want to take a shower!"


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> Ahh, so it _is_ rudeness that you value.
> 
> Do you honestly not see how that's rude? the case for Asperger's gets stronger and stronger.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, later that day the boss gives you two weeks notice. If that.




then i get a different job working for a boss who's not the kind of imbecile who's going to ask me every question twice.

yes, it's rude, but i got rude because he persisted in bugging me with something i have no opinion on.  to me, guys don't "look good".  i don't care what kind of toupee they wear or whether their brad pitt or some other celebrity that the media hypes as "sexy".  guys all look ugly to me.



> It's time for a straight answer, Hida. Are you looking to get laid, or are you learning how to get yourself into a position where you're socially apt?




i'm looking to be able to ask girls out.  eventually i would like to get laid.  if i meet the right person, i would also like to form a close friendship with them in addition to the physical aspect.  this would be called a "relationship".



> "how do I hit on girls...what I'm doing is not working...help me".




actually that wasn't what i was trying to ask.  this is what i was trying to ask.

"right now i'm too scared to try to approach girls because i'm afraid of making them and others think that i'm some kind of predator.  i want to know how i can show a girl i'm attracted to her and find out if she might be interested in me without offending her.  i'm not neccessarily looking for what "works" as far as success/failure is concerned, my idea is more along the lines of see if i can find someone who fits my taste for whom who i am fits their taste.  i recognise that my dorky self is not what most chicks go for, and expect to be rejected by many, but i need to at least try, and i'm trying to figure out how to try."

it's not that "what i'm doing isn't working".  right now i'm doing nothing.  i'm trying to prepare for my final semester, and make a change so that i can at least attempt to talk to girls and ask them out.



> I have a question Hida. Where are you trying to pick up girls? 27 year olds aren't that uncommon on a college campus, but your average girl is going to run the 18-22 range. And if you look your age, approaching a girl like that may automatically come across as creepy. Have you tried bars or clubs? Where are you going?




well, pretty much the girls in the 18-22 range tend to be the ones i'm attracted to.  not all that into the girls my own age (though some of the younger looking ones my age are still hot.)


----------



## Droid101

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i want to know how i can show a girl i'm attracted to her and find out if she might be interested in me without offending her.  i'm not neccessarily looking for what "works" as far as success/failure is concerned, my idea is more along the lines of see if i can find someone who fits my taste for whom who i am fits their taste.



Where do you live?  Where do you go to school?


> i recognise that my dorky self is not what most chicks go for, and expect to be rejected by many,



Yeah.  Yes.  Yep.  Until you shape up and stop thinking "Hm, that girl has probably a 16 Charisma, nice," then you're not getting anywhere.  There are NO girls who think like that.

At least none I would want to deal with regularly.


----------



## Orblivia

The Shaman said:
			
		

> Am I the only person that finds disconcerting that the RPGA needed to make a rule for that?






Not at all!

But I thank my lucky stars every day it was made.


----------



## Xath

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i'm looking to be able to ask girls out.  eventually i would like to get laid.  if i meet the right person, i would also like to form a close friendship with them in addition to the physical aspect.  this would be called a "relationship".




Ok.  You have your steps in the wrong order.  You can ask girls out and get laid, but don't expect a close relationship afterwards, even if you like them.  OR. You can meet someone, form a close friendship, and THEN enter into the physical aspect. 



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> the girls in the 18-22 range tend to be the ones i'm attracted to.  not all that into the girls my own age (though some of the younger looking ones my age are still hot.)




I had written something here that was *honest*, but I thought better of it.  I understand that guys are often attracted to younger women.  And I understand that relationships with large age gaps can work.  But I have to say that I find this statement kind of creepy.  You wouldn't consider seeing someone your own age unless she looked younger?  Would you date an 18 year old that looked younger than 18?  

Your age specifications seem very superficial.  And hippocritical, since you don't really seem to care about your own appearance.


----------



## Humanophile

If this is all about working up the nerve, just think two things.

First, what are the odds you'll have anything to do with her again?  This doesn't quite excuse over-the-top things like asking her what color panties she's wearing or going from girl to girl in the same area, but it does mean that if the conversation goes a little sour you haven't lost that much.  (Although keep in mind that if it's just a conversation, you probably have more give than you might think.  If it's just a practice/confidence builder chat, you can get away with being kind of shy and nerdy.  I even reccomend out-and-out admitting you're not much good at talking to girls at this stage; you can use the feedback and extra slack it'll get you far more than any loss of cool points will hurt you.)

Second, tying into the first, keep in mind that most people won't be paying you much attention.  I'm twenty-five, I've chatted up seventeen year olds with nobody batting an eye; unless you look extra old or she looks extra young, people will kind of gloss over the difference in their heads.  They're far too wrapped up in their own stuff to pop by and check ID's.  And a faux-pas with a given girl, unless it's so severe as to cause a major scene, will not cause everyone in the room to regard you as a creep from then on; think how hard it is for you to notice any given conversation in the restaurant/cafeteria around you and realize that's how it is for everyone else too.  (What causes major scenes?  Well, if you've been paying attention here you've probably already stopped by your school's counseling office.  They really do help.  And they can help give you pointers if your social skills are that far off the mark.)

Once you get the hang of going up and saying hi, it gets fairly easy; I was able to go from dreadfully frightened to blase about it in a little over a month, myself.  Just remember to keep yourself presentable.  As for when you take a shine to one of these ladies and want to know how to come across better, well, this thread'll be here waiting for you.


----------



## Humanophile

Xath said:
			
		

> I had written something here that was *honest*, but I thought better of it.  I understand that guys are often attracted to younger women.  And I understand that relationships with large age gaps can work.  But I have to say that I find this statement kind of creepy.  You wouldn't consider seeing someone your own age unless she looked younger?  Would you date an 18 year old that looked younger than 18?
> 
> Your age specifications seem very superficial.  And hippocritical, since you don't really seem to care about your own appearance.




You know our good friend Hida.  He prefers blunt honesty.  So don't feel the need to hold back on his part.  Eric's grandmother, on the other hand...

Still, it's more fun when people learn what the market will bear on their own.  They tend not to learn any other way, really.  (Many fail to learn even then, but if harsh experience fails to teach them anything I don't see friendly advice making a lick of difference.)  I'm hoping against hope that if/as Hida learns how to socialize, he'll learn to be more adaptable and open-minded.  I've seen people grow as they come face to face with reality, and I'd like to retain some optimism.


----------



## msd

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> then i get a different job working for a boss who's not the kind of imbecile who's going to ask me every question twice.
> 
> yes, it's rude, but i got rude because he persisted in bugging me with something i have no opinion on.




Welcome to what the rest of us call...being a grown-up.  You can't quit every time things don't go exactly according to your plan.  Working with others is about making adjustments, playing a bit of harmless politics, and hopefully learning which battles to fight and which are not worth fighting.  Grow up.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i'm looking to be able to ask girls out.  eventually i would like to get laid.  if i meet the right person, i would also like to form a close friendship with them in addition to the physical aspect.  this would be called a "relationship".




I love the quotes around relationship with the somewhat condescending tone.  Are you honestly putting yourself in the position of educating others as to what does, or does not constitute a relationship?

And as someone else said, you've got your order backwards.  Women are a lot of things to a lot of different people, but I would venture to guess that "perceptive as all hell" has to be at or near the top of everyone's list.  If you think that they aren't going to see through this tactic, than think again.



			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> Well, pretty much the girls in the 18-22 range tend to be the ones i'm attracted to.  not all that into the girls my own age (though some of the younger looking ones my age are still hot.)




This is per se creepy and again represents a ridiculous and childish objectification of women.  Women cannot be defined strictly in terms of their age and if, at age 27, you start strictly by looking for 18 year olds, you are going to scare a hell of a lot of people.

My sneaking suspicion is that you don't like women your own age because most 27 year old women would be downright mortified with the state of your maturity and your behavior.


----------



## Arcane Runes Press

ARPress' wife again.  It's kinda rude to say but.  Guys, really.  I know you are trying to be helpful to Hida but A) He's not willing to take the advice obviously.  and B) Don't worry, he won't get laid anyway.  Because of A.


----------



## Crothian

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> ARPress' wife again.  It's kinda rude to say but.  Guys, really.  I know you are trying to be helpful to Hida but A) He's not willing to take the advice obviously.  and B) Don't worry, he won't get laid anyway.  Because of A.




Actually, I predict he'll eventually follow some of the advice and then find a wonderful woman.  THen at some point he'll mention to her in passing this thread, she'll inquire about it and he will foolishly show it to her.  THen she will leave him for the thread has a very creepy feel and then he will fall back to old habits.  And he will start another thread like this one.


----------



## nerfherder

Crothian said:
			
		

> Actually, I predict he'll eventually follow some of the advice and then find a wonderful woman.  THen at some point he'll mention to her in passing this thread, she'll inquire about it and he will foolishly show it to her.  THen she will leave him for ...



...then she will leave him for Teflon Billy   

Cheers,
Liam


----------



## tarchon

Well, as a counter-example to the Shower Theory, I should note out that I had a friend in college who spent a couple years in a non-showering hippie phase, and he had hippie chicks jumping on him like you wouldn't believe. Really, I had a couple er... poorly groomed pals who never lacked for company. The neatest neat freak I knew was usually single, but that was more out of his apparent disinterest in women at the time - they definitely came after him, and he does allright nowadays. What did all these guys have in common? Tall. That's most of what it's about. 
Get some elevator shoes, man, elevator shoes.


----------



## Angcuru

Y'know, this thread has a very noticable pattern to it.

Hida - Asks advice

Ennies - Give advice

Hida - Rejects advice, 'rationalizes' why he shouldn't change.

Repeat process.

Well, besides that, this thread _does_ have a very creepy feel to it.  No more lookies for me.


----------



## Teflon Billy

nerfherder said:
			
		

> ...then she will leave him for Teflon Billy




I'm (happily!) as taken as taken can be...and not looking to "trade" under any circumstances (much less for Hida's castoffs)


----------



## Teflon Billy

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> then i get a different job working for a boss who's not the kind of imbecile who's going to ask me every question twice.
> 
> yes, it's rude, but i got rude because he persisted in bugging me with something i have no opinion on.  to me, guys don't "look good".  i don't care what kind of toupee they wear ...




Oh. My. God.  :\ 

Ok, the simple truth Hida is--measured by any yardstick--the "conversation with your boss" that I whipped up a few posts back was what the whole goddam world would call _Small talk_. Innocous conversation meant to bond acquaintances.

You managed to flip out, get yourself fired, and get it in your head that you are going to find another job (you won't have a reference from him no matter your job performance) all over the fact that you couldn't just _make frckin' smalll talk_.

I fear that you like "blunt honesty" the way I like "English" Hida, which is to say you are _incapable of puzzling out any other language_. 

You don't _appreciate candor_, you are simply incapable of figuring out what's going on in any situation where it isn't plainly and obviously spelled out for you.

You want some Blunt Honesty? Here it is: I don't think you have a single hope of meeting even the smallest of your goals as you currently are. Until such time as you can "decode" simple things like body language and conversational subtext, you are a lost cause.

This is frustrating beyond belief. So I will echo Buttercup's sound advice in the least ambiguous manner I can manage (as you have requested): : 

SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP


----------



## Stone Angel

Hida I have been watching this thread for a long time. I even tried to help by offering some advice on approaching and talking to women. I have come to agree with TB and Buttercup that you have a few social issues going on. Do not be ashamed TB may have been a little rough and his post may seem offensive, but your replies seem to indicate that you just don't get it, and trust me TB doens't need me to defend him. You should go see a therapist especially after your job incident, maybe even for just one session or a profile. I do wish you well in your knew endeavor in finding a new job. 

Question have you tried any of these things anyone has suggested? Right now I am tapped out the only thing that I can think to say is try a dating site. Oh new thought there are lots of bars that have "drinking clubs" where you are randomly assigned to a table and you get to know the patrons for a while. If all esle fails find a really hot chick that you have no chance with but who is nice ask her to help you.


The Seraph of Earth and Stone


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> SEEK PROFESSIONAL HELP




_Asperger Syndrome or (Asperger's Disorder) is a neurobiological disorder named for a Viennese physician, Hans Asperger, who in 1944 published a paper which described a pattern of behaviors in several young boys who had normal intelligence and language development, but who also exhibited autistic-like behaviors and marked deficiencies in social and communication skills. In spite of the publication of his paper in the 1940's, it wasn't until 1994 that Asperger Syndrome was added to the DSM IV and only in the past few years has AS been recognized by professionals and parents. 

Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see. It's important to remember that the person with AS perceives the world very differently. Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior, and most certainly not the result of "improper parenting". 

By definition, those with AS have a normal IQ and many individuals (although not all), exhibit exceptional skill or talent in a specific area. Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context. _


Damn, TB. And I thought your chick advice was good. That was some damn fine armchair pyschology, there.

Wulf


----------



## Hida Bukkorosu

i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.


----------



## Wulf Ratbane

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.




Sure beats being creepy for the rest of your life.


----------



## Teflon Billy

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.




Yes.

Do that.

Do _exactly _that.

Tell me honestly that the middle paragraph in Wulf's post regarding *Asperger's Syndrome* doesn't sound a bit familiar to you.

Take the tinfoil helmet off and use your head.

(the "tinfoil Helmet" didn't actually refer to a tinfoil Helmet I think you are wearing. it is a slang term referring to someone who places too much stock in conspiracy theory. I am referring to your belief that all a doctor will do is "hook you on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of your life" rather than helping you stop being like this. 

Is that literal enough that you can understand?)


----------



## Torm

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.



I'm the _last_ person to trust doctors - but in this case, I think I'm actually convinced TB is on to something. The thing that convinced me is your account of your conversation with your boss - if you are _truly_ not capable of understanding the difference between being _attracted_ to a man, and simply being able to tell whether or not he is presenting himself well and possibly whether or not _women_ (or gay men) would find him attractive, I think that might go a long way towards explaining your attitude towards your own appearance, and that, alone, might be reason enough to go talk to a professional counsellor. Completely aside from the rest of the problems you have spoken of.

And no, that doesn't mean a lifetime of expensive meds or therapy. There are plenty of little local mental health clinics that provide a service for a relatively reasonable fee, and try to actually _help_ you, since they are in large part state funded.

One final note from me regarding the advice in this thread: Acting in my capacity as a Member of ENWorld, I just wanted to remind everyone that (unless anyone wishes to speak up and say otherwise, specifically about themselves) all advice has been given in a non-professional capacity, and is worth exactly what you have paid for it. So no funny blaming us or ENWorld if you decide to self-treat based on TB's armchair diagnosis of Asperger Syndrome and wind up growing a second head, mmmkay? 

(Also, I am not a lawyer, and the above disclaimer is provided as a courtesy to ENWorld and its members in a non-professional and unofficial capacity, as well. So no funny blaming me if Hida or anyone else sues someone and the above disclaimer doesn't hold up in court.    )

If any of this seems to be babbling, please forgive me - I am very tired, and heading for bed soon.


----------



## Arcane Runes Press

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.




It's doubtful that they'll "hook" you on anything, and you may not be in therapy for the rest of your life.

But even if they do, it's much better than what's going on for you right now.


----------



## tarchon

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.




Aspergers isn't treated with drug therapy as far as I know, but then you may not have Aspergers or any other particular syndrome. Therapy might help, but, as they say, you have to really want to change. It all sounds like it comes down to the old "delayed gratification" issue. You have trouble putting up with near-term inconvenience for long-term gains. Obviously, you understand that your boss, girls, etc. expect "small talk" and such (which is the faculty that someone with Asperger's lacks - the perception of this expectation) - I think you often just don't want to do it. All of us find ourselves in situations sometimes where we would just as soon not have to chit-chat with some boring dude (I do, at any rate), but we just smile and nod for the sake of maintaining peace and order. It's a small price to pay for a large eventual benefit, an investment of time.

I'd say, If you want to change, and you don't know how - that's a reason to get therapy.
If you want to change, and you know how, just do it and save your money.
If you just don't want to change, it's obviously going to have a price, but therapy probably isn't going to help all that much with that.


----------



## Joker[ZW]

If you decide to do a therapy remember some things.
1. Do not just go to one therapist. Go once to *at least* 4-5 different ones and than decide whom of those you trust most to be able to help you. 
2. There will be a low point after the first sessions where you get the feeling that therapy won't help you at all. Don't stop the sessions because of that, it's normal and it will go away if you chose the right one (see nr. 1).


At least that's the advice I remember from my prof.


----------



## Buttercup

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> one thing i'm not getting is why would i waste time showering if i'm not even going to leave my apt?




Because you don't like feeling dirty?  Having greasy hair is uncomfortable?  

Hida, whatever you do in this life, no matter how much money you make, whether you marry or not, there is only one person who will be with you right up until your very last heartbeat.  That's you.  

Don't take good care of yourself for others--do it for you.  It's a simple matter of self respect.


----------



## msd

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.




Wow...thank goodness we got another ill-founded justification for why you refuse to change.  For a second, I was in terrible fear that we had made some actual progress.


----------



## Buttercup

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.




Is that sarcasm, Hida?  I can't tell.

Anyway, if you really do have Asperger's Syndrome, medication wouldn't be necessary.  Also, the counselling sessions wouldn't go on forever.  Instead you'd get some coaching on how to read the subtext in conversations and some concrete explanations for how to decode nonverbal signals.  I've read that most people with Asperger's can be taught the things that other people learn automatically, and once they have mastered these skills, their lives go much more smoothly.

I wish you well, Hida.  There is hope for you, but only if you decide to take charge of your life instead of just letting it happen.


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## TiQuinn

Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> i guess ill go seek professional help then, and let them hook me on meds and expensive therapy sessions for the rest of my life.




It'd be money well spent.


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## d20Dwarf

Buttercup said:
			
		

> Anyway, if you really do have Asperger's Syndrome, medication wouldn't be necessary.  Also, the counselling sessions wouldn't go on forever.  Instead you'd get some coaching on how to read the subtext in conversations and some concrete explanations for how to decode nonverbal signals.  I've read that most people with Asperger's can be taught the things that other people learn automatically, and once they have mastered these skills, their lives go much more smoothly.




This is important, all therapy isn't sitting on the couch talking about your mother. There are a lot of programs in place that help people learn how to deal with life situations, how to recognize their irrational responses, and how to keep them in check while deciding on a rational reaction to life's vicissitudes. *That* kind of therapy is extremely valuable.


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## Humanophile

This thread has been going on for almost twenty pages.  And while there have been plenty of digressions and pointless advice, most of it has been about one thing.  Getting you, Hida Bukkorosu, laid.

Read that again until it sinks in.  We want you to succeed.  Every time a gamer gets laid, an angel gets its wings.  But throughout this thread, you've repeatedly proven that large amounts of groundwork have to be set down before that's anything resembling possible.  You seem to want some simplified fantasy world where everything's out in the open and all the things you miss don't really matter, and you seem to be taking a petulant stand against the fact that reality does require all those things in order to succeed.  And you've done an excellent job alienating people who have been trying to help for all this time.

Were Buttercup, Teflon Billy, Torm, myself, or any of the other regulars on this thread trained therapists who happened to live in your area, I'm sure someone would have already offered to get together to help point out all the little social cues you miss out on.  But none of us are, so we reccomend that you find someone who _is_ a local trained therapist to fit that role.  Because frankly, you need more help than this thread alone can provide.

How do you build up any form of relationship without being creepy?  Realize that you have a lot of work to do before you're ready to play those games.  But at the same time, keep in mind that this is less about changing and more about learning and growth.  Will it be a little harsh on your ego now to admit your flaws?  Yes.  Will it be much more satisfying once you've worked around those flaws?  I'd like to think so.


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## Qlippoth

tarchon said:
			
		

> Well, as a counter-example to the Shower Theory, I should note out that I had a friend in college who spent a couple years in a non-showering hippie phase, and he had hippie chicks jumping on him like you wouldn't believe. Really, I had a couple er... poorly groomed pals who never lacked for company. The neatest neat freak I knew was usually single, but that was more out of his apparent disinterest in women at the time - they definitely came after him, and he does allright nowadays. What did all these guys have in common? Tall. That's most of what it's about.
> Get some elevator shoes, man, elevator shoes.



I seen it too!  At college, one of my female friends had a housemate we dubbed "Stinky Jeff" who fit the profile perfectly (completely unhygienic & tall). He never lacked for hippie chick attention. One morning, he made pancakes for his gal-o-the-moment and himself.  Pancakes were inserted into mouths, then pats of butter and squirts of syrup were added to the consumer's mouth. My friend moved out QUICKLY.


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## Torm

Humanophile said:
			
		

> Were Buttercup, Teflon Billy, Torm, myself, or any of the other regulars <snip>



I'M a "regular"!  AWESOME!


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## The Shaman

Humanophile said:
			
		

> This thread has been going on for almost twenty pages.  And while there have been plenty of digressions and pointless advice, most of it has been about one thing.  Getting you, Hida Bukkorosu, laid.
> 
> Read that again until it sinks in.  We want you to succeed.



Yeah, I would've agreed with that sentiment until I read...


			
				Hida Bukkorosu said:
			
		

> well, pretty much the girls in the 18-22 range tend to be the ones i'm attracted to.  *not all that into the girls my own age (though some of the younger looking ones my age are still hot.)*



...and that pegged out my creepiness meter.

*Hida*, my advice is to you is stick to internet porn and be sure to get regular treatment for your tennis elbow.

In all seriousness that speaks of a level of immaturity that precludes me from encouraging someone to seek physical intimacy with another person.

Oh, and *Humanophile*?


			
				Humanophile said:
			
		

> Every time a gamer gets laid, an angel gets its wings.



That is just _puro oro_.


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## Stone Angel

I was going to post something but I am just going to say @#$@# it and go beat my head into a wall that hopefully has a nail protruding from it. 

Hida please do us all a favor post no more replies (but continue to post other places just not this thread) just do whatever you do or don't do don't let anyone help you out and just leave this thread alone. 

The Seraph of Earth and Stone


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## Berandor

No!

This thread must not die! I refuse!


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## Orblivia

Bump


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## Orblivia

Ok Hida you loaded the gun for me with "27 year old that look youger are ok I guess" Let me enlighten you. 

Like 27 is ing decrepit
Frankly I was a bit taken aback....like what do  you want ? "old enough to pee old enough for me?"

You are being a smacktard. I am 27, not a typical gamer chick *but not hot larper chick either* I look good. So when basement boi king of the rank mold people has  to say about ANYTHING regarding looks....I get indignant

It isnt like at 27 a woman is at the bottom of her personal hill

Buddy find your ing manpants and don them
You want younger girls because peers your own age would laugh at you
It is still socially acceptable to live the way you do in college on SOME LEVEL. People say "well they are in college they will grow up" at 27/28 a woman wont even look at that  much less twice.

Listen to these people...seek help.


Anger monkey....signing off.


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## Droid101

Orblivia said:
			
		

> ...Orblivia's utter truth...



So aptly put.


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## Torm

Orblivia said:
			
		

> .
> I am 27, not a typical gamer chick *but not hot larper chick either* I look good.



Hey, baby. How YOU doin'? 



No, no. Hida has the right idea - raise 'em like ya want 'em. 

 

If anything, Hida, you want to go a little older than yourself - women have longer lifespans, typically, and if you can balance that out, you can get that sweet-old-people-on-their-deathbed-together thing going on.

 

Its been a while since he posted - not sure he's even reading this anymore. Some of us have been kinda hard on him, for people "trying to help". Myself included?


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## d20Dwarf

Hmmm, Hida is not alone.

In this thread  on the WotC site, the #2 reason why living in a D&D world would be cool is:

"2. Not bathe because nobody else does."


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## Orblivia

I dont care if he is reading.

If he isnt, it means what we thought all along....he didnt want help but a bunch of bobbleheaded yespeoples.


Oh no...how YOU doin! *LOL*


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## Darkness

I think we're done here.


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