# Wild Mage with Practiced Spellcaster?



## Abstraction (Dec 14, 2004)

Would this work? Wild Mage prestige class from CA gives you a permanent -3 hit on caster level, but you roll 1d6 to add to your caster level when you cast. Would Practiced Spellcaster mean that you cast at your level, plus 1d6? This could be quite powerful!


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## UltimaGabe (Dec 14, 2004)

I wouldn't allow it, and any DM with half of a mind wouldn't allow it either.


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## Thanee (Dec 14, 2004)

It doesn't work.

Practiced Spellcaster is a permanent change to your caster level, while Wild Magic only applies during the casting of a spell, thus Practiced Spellcaster has already been applied and it is not reapplied every time you cast a spell (only when you gain a level).

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Dec 14, 2004)

Abstraction said:
			
		

> Wild Mage prestige class from CA gives you a permanent -3 hit on caster level, ...




Nope, that's not what it does.

It only gives you the -3 during spellcasting, same as the +1d6.

Bye
Thanee


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## 3d6 (Dec 14, 2004)

Practiced Spellcaster can't increase your caster level to greater than your character level. Thus, the +1d6 caster level overrides Practiced Spellcaster, so you basically take the 1d6 or the Practiced Spellcaster caster level bonus, whichever is better.


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## Thanee (Dec 14, 2004)

Not really. It works like this.

During level up you check, whether your caster level is lower than your Hit Dice. If so, you apply Practiced Spellcaster (as much as +4 to your caster level, or your Hit Dice, whichever is lower).

During spellcasting, Wild Magic lowers your caster level by 3 and then adds +1d6. This can, of course, be higher than your Hit Dice (but it could also be lower, the range is from -2 to +3 of your regular caster level (which includes any bonuses from Practiced Spellcaster)).

Bye
Thanee


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## Abstraction (Dec 14, 2004)

No books in front of me at the moment, but I am pretty sure that Wild Magic lowers your caster level when you level, permanently. If there were some reason you needed to check your caster level without casting a spell, it would still be at -3 (say for instance qualifying for feats or PrC). This is offset by the random increase, but only when you cast a spell.


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

Nope it says...



> She reduces her caster level by 3 *for all spells she casts* from now on.




Hence, only for (or during) spellcasting.

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Dec 15, 2004)

Now, who is willing to put up the full relevant text for both abilities for comparison? I think that would be legal for fair use in order to see how they interact and discuss it


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## Judas (Dec 15, 2004)

Running this through my head... (I do have the book in front of me.) 


> *+1 level of exsisting class.*
> The character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in a spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained.





> *Practiced Spellcaster* : _Only the context_
> Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class  increases by 4. This benefit can't increase your caster level higher than your Hit Dice.





> *Wild Magic*
> A wild mage casts spells differently from any other arcane spellcaster. She reduces her caster level by 3 from now on. However, every time she casts a spell, her use of wild magic adds 1d6 to her adjusted caster level.



As it looks to me, Practiced Spellcaster could be used to offset the -3 placed by wild magic.

Wiz10/Rgr5 has Practiced Spellacster. He casts at 14th level power (Save DC's and SR). Next level takes Wild Mage which has +1 level to exsisting arcane spellcasting class. Now he casts at 15th level, but wait he gets the -3 casting adjustment (Note that it's not declared as a PENALTY) so now he's based at 12th level plus 1d6 level adjustment when he casts, so we have a possible 13th to 18th level spell. 

Allthough this is a powerfull situation, I don't see any rules being broken.


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

Judas said:
			
		

> _Only the context_




Yeah, why not just leave out the important parts of the descriptions... like:



			
				Practiced Spellcaster said:
			
		

> However, even if you can't benefit from the full bonus immediately, *if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes*, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus.




So, once you select the feat, you immediately apply the bonus, or the portion, which pushes your caster level up to your Hit Dice. After that, you can apply the rest of the bonus if you gain a level in a nonspellcasting class.

It's not hanging around and waiting to get put to use (like when casting a spell with Wild Magic, when your caster level suddenly gets lowered by 3 (and then raised again by +1d6), or when suffering from an Energy Drain attack.


Sidenote: Hmm... actually... doesn't that also prevent Paladins (and such) from using Practiced Spellcaster on themselves and derive Mystic Theurges from any benefit at all from that feat?

EDIT: Hmm... at least the example seems to imply, that with "levels in nonspellcasting classes" they just refer to levels not in the spellcasting class you selected Practiced Spellcaster to apply to. This would still leave the Paladin case, however.

Bye
Thanee


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## Judas (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Yeah, why not just leave out the important parts of the descriptions... like:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hence my example where THE FULL BONUS is already in place. Did you even read it? I think not. You just read "Only the context" and immedately jumped into what seems like a "Must be a jerk to everyone" mode and clicked reply.


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Dec 15, 2004)

*Thanee's right*

I agree, Judas, that the wording would indicate that this trick is legal.  

It's just not reasonable.  

As I understand it, the caster doesn't lose any knowledge of spellcasting when he takes a level in Wild Mage.  His spellcasting just gets wonkified.  He still prepares his highest level spells and so forth, it just isn't clear how powerfully they'll manifest when he actually casts them.  To let a character take a feat to eliminate this intrinsic trait of wild magic ignores the rationale behind the game mechanics as they stand, I think.

I figure that if you take 10 lvls in wizard and then decide to pursue a career soldiery and take levels in fighter, you might elect to continue practicing the spells you already know and have used for years, as a back-up to your still-feeble sword arm.  That's practiced spellcaster.

To say that practiced spellcaster as a way to get around the caster level reduction from wild mage is like saying "I've practiced and grown so adroit at conventional spellcasting that I'm better at this new, counter-intuitive and unconventional way of spellcasting than those with more experience using it.  I can predictably control the capriciously erratic."

That just don't make no sense.  At least not to me.


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

If I just posted that to be a jerk, I wouldn't care to explain it, or would I? 

BTW, your example doesn't do what you say (so I didn't bother to reply to it, as it just shows a completely normal situation with PS and WM both active)... PS doesn't offset the -3 there... both are fully applied... 10th caster level (Wiz) +4 PS (4+ nonspellcaster levels) +1 (Wild Mage) = 15th caster level (13th-18th during spellcasting (with the -3+1d6)).



What people are hoping for is something like this...

14th caster level (Wiz) +1 (Wild Mage) = 15th caster level.

Now with Practiced Spellcaster the -3 isn't applied, since PS automatically nullifies it (since you still have all +4 from PS unused), so your caster level increases by +1 - +6 (16th-21st) not by -2 - +3 (13th-18th), as it should.

But this is simply not true, since PS does not work that way (as explained above).

Bye
Thanee


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## Sejs (Dec 15, 2004)

As said the last time it came up - no DM in their right mind would let that combo fly.


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 15, 2004)

Settle down, kids... none of the personal attacks, hmm?  

-Hyp.
(Moderator)


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## Scion (Dec 15, 2004)

I dont know what I would do in my games, but at the 'very' least I would let it cancel out the penalty (ie, if he rolled a 1 or 2 it would be counted as a 3). Basically 1/3 of the time it would have an actual effect.

Although, the other options are interesting  If it is considered a d6-3 modifier instead of a -3 modification and then d6 added on that is a bit different, but like I said, I'd have the above as a default unless choosing otherwise.


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

Scion said:
			
		

> I dont know what I would do in my games, but at the 'very' least I would let it cancel out the penalty (ie, if he rolled a 1 or 2 it would be counted as a 3).




If PS would be applied dynamically, then it would work that way, yeah.

But since PS is only figured into your permanent caster level during level up, that situation never happens. 

That, of course, doesn't mean you can't let it work that way in your games as a house rule, but I would think twice about that... 

Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Sidenote: Hmm... actually... doesn't that also prevent Paladins (and such) from using Practiced Spellcaster on themselves and derive Mystic Theurges from any benefit at all from that feat?




Well, it depends on whether you consider the "gain a level in non-spellcasting class" to be an example, or the only time it changes.

Also, even if it _is_ the only time the Practised Spellcaster bonus is recalculated, it doesn't prevent a Paladin-9 gaining full benefit from the feat _when he takes it_, or a Clr3/Sor4/MyTh getting his full +4 to his cleric caster level.  But if he took it for his Sor caster level, he'd only get +3, and even if he took another level in Cleric, it wouldn't increase to +4.

On the other hand, if it only recalculates when taking a level in a non-spellcasting class, you could end up with another odd situation.  Wiz1/Rog4 takes Practised Spellcaster, gaining +4 to his Wizard caster level.  He gets Energy Drained for four levels, losing all his Rogue levels permanently.  He now proceeds with his career, levelling as a pure wizard.

Since he's not taking levels in non-spellcasting classes, his PS bonus isn't recalculated, and remains at +4... so he's a Wiz-3 with a caster level of 7, for example.

-Hyp.


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## Scion (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> If PS would be applied dynamically, then it would work that way, yeah.
> 
> But since PS is only figured into your permanent caster level during level up, that situation never happens.




Even from the quotes you gave I dont see this as being a 'just at level time' sort of ability. I am not even sure if that sort of definition has any meaning.

It is just always there and applies whenever it can. If there was some sort of strange spell that turned one of a players levels into a commoner level for a certain duration then I would let practiced spellcaster help alleviate some of that problem.

Just like if someone suddenly gained some racial hd somehow, that would also work.

But then, I would even allow it to play off of the bonus hd granted by the bard song. But then I am a softy for very odd combinations that happen to have a good, but not overpowering, synergy  That is just too nice of a roundabout use to 'not' allow it to work!


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

Heh. They cannot cover weird situations like this, of course, but as I see it each "+1" is bound to a specific level, and if you lose that level, you also lose the "+1" and put it back into the pool, so to say. While it's not really explained that way, it makes the most sense to me that way. But that's just relevant in weird situations like those.

(Also read EDIT above.)

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Dec 15, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> He gets Energy Drained for four levels, losing all his Rogue levels permanently.




As much as I hate level drain in an actual game, the very strange situations that it can cause, even in just the core rules, are always amusing (not that this is core, I was just on another thread talking about how something normally impossible was possible due to level loss).


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## Judas (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> If I just posted that to be a jerk, I wouldn't care to explain it, or would I?
> 
> BTW, your example doesn't do what you say (so I didn't bother to reply to it, as it just shows a completely normal situation with PS and WM both active)... PS doesn't offset the -3 there... both are fully applied... 10th caster level (Wiz) +4 PS (4+ nonspellcaster levels) +1 (Wild Mage) = 15th caster level (13th-18th during spellcasting (with the -3+1d6)).
> 
> ...



Huh? Did you just plagurize my example? Since that's the EXACT thing I came up with.

I'm trying to see why you're hooked up on the reasoning that Feat is always on, and the class ability is not? Do you think that a wild mage has a choice in not using wild magic at all?


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

Because Wild Magic says, that it only applies to casting spells.

Caster level is also used for other things (item creation for example, or using scrolls above your casting ability or staffs - Wild Magic doesn't do anything there and in your example the caster level would simply be 15th).

And no, I just restated your example and gave you another to compare it with to hopefully see the difference between the two. The point is, in your example, the -3 from Wild Magic is fully applied (it isn't offset by PS), so there is no special benefit from PS (which only alleviates some of the levels "lost" by taking ranger levels, just what the feat is meant to do) in combination with WM in your example.

Bye
Thanee


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## Arbiter of Wyrms (Dec 15, 2004)

Would this issue have come up at all if wild magic had been expressed as adding "1d6-3 to the effective caster level for determining variable spell effects."?


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> (Also read EDIT above.)




I read the edit above; you still say "But since PS is only figured into your permanent caster level during level up..."

So is it only during level-up?  Or during level-up and during level-down?

And if it's not only during level-up, then doesn't that potentially open it up to negative levels, bardic music, and Wild Magic as well, since you're throwing out the exclusivity of the "if you take a level in a non-spellcasting class" clause?

-Hyp.


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## Judas (Dec 15, 2004)

Hmm.. I don't view the -3 as off, then on, and then back off ability.. it's always applied. Period. That's one of the drawbacks of being a wildmage. 

I do see your point, and where it would apply, but I wouldn't rule it like that in a game I would run. And the people in my games don't make any items like scrolls or potions, so it's not a concern yet.

-------

As for the loss of rogue levels, PS would be re calculated then as well. So would extra edge if a warmage lost his levels suffeciently.


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

(The EDIT wasn't directly aimed at that (obviously ), just to not get overlooked.)

If the bonus is applied during level up, then it's obviously also lost with level loss, since it is something gained at that level (indirectly, but still).

Of course, they didn't think about this, when they wrote the feat... nothing I can really blame them for, level loss is wonky in the core rules already. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Dec 15, 2004)

Judas said:
			
		

> Hmm.. I don't view the -3 as off, then on, and then back off ability.. it's always applied. Period. That's one of the drawbacks of being a wildmage.




You can play it that way, of course.

But it's not the ability as written:



> She reduces her caster level by 3 *for all spells she casts* from now on.




Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 15, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Of course, they didn't think about this, when they wrote the feat...




But can't the same argument be made for any other situation where the difference between caster level and hit dice change?

-Hyp.


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## Thanee (Dec 16, 2004)

No, because that other situation is the standard situation the feat applies to and the wording seems clear enough on that. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> No, because that other situation is the standard situation the feat applies to and the wording seems clear enough on that.




[blink]

... what?

-Hyp.


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 16, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> [blink]
> 
> ... what?
> 
> -Hyp.




I think thanee is, as we say, just making stuff up. There is nothing in core which specifies a 'sample time' for evaluating feats and the like. Given that, I think we must assume that the simulation is continuous.

Which means that at spellcasting, you do the following:

take a -3 to caster level

then

add 1d6 to caster level

then (and you do it last because it's the only one that is dependant upon anything)

Add 4 to your caster level up to a maximum of your hit dice.

So wild mages with the feat will usually get no benefit, and occasionally get a +1 to +3 caster level benefit.

For an average of +1 caster level. Eh. Whatever.


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 16, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> I think thanee is, as we say, just making stuff up. There is nothing in core which specifies a 'sample time' for evaluating feats and the like. Given that, I think we must assume that the simulation is continuous.




Does that mean that an Orange Ioun Stone, for example, or the Good Domain power, is useless for someone who is gaining a partial benefit from Practised Spellcaster?

A Wiz6/Rog3 with PS gains a bonus sufficient to raise his caster level (6) up to his hit dice (9): +3.

If he throws up an Orange Ioun Stone, his caster level exclusive of PS is now 7, so PS provides a benefit sufficient to raise his caster level (7) up to his hit dice (9): +2.

Caster level before stone: 9.  Caster level after stone: 9.

-Hyp.


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 16, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Caster level before stone: 9.  Caster level after stone: 9.
> 
> -Hyp.




I guess we need some sort of order of precedence if we're going to use the continuous method, don't we?

Or just do it on a case-by-case basis.

I still maintain that in the case of the wild mage, having between +0 and +3 caster levels is the best solution.

But I guess that's just me making stuff up.


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## Thanee (Dec 16, 2004)

Saeviomagy said:
			
		

> I guess we need some sort of order of precedence if we're going to use the continuous method, don't we?
> 
> Or just do it on a case-by-case basis.
> 
> ...




Heh. 

Why is that making stuff up, which I wrote?

The feat says "immediately" and "if you gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus", thus implying that you do not apply the rest of the bonus "continuous". Those two phrases describe when you gain benefit of the feat. The description is certainly not exhaustive (i.e. not covering level loss situations), but it's clear enough to me that they mean, that PS gives a permanent bonus/change to your caster level, not a bonus which is constantly lingering about waiting to come to use at any given moment. It doesn't say anything about that, and as you have noted, there is no order in which bonuses are applied, other than the order in which they were gained, so even then, PS would do nothing in combination with WM, since it must always be applied first, as WM is not active all the time for sure.

And it also seems to be the most reasonable way to let this work, otherwise it would let you ignore caster level penalties (i.e. from Energy Drain attacks), which does not seem very related to the feat and certainly does not seem to be the intent, much less that Wild Magic abuse, which is very obviously not the intent of Wild Magic. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> And it also seems to be the most reasonable way to let this work, otherwise it would let you ignore caster level penalties (i.e. from Energy Drain attacks)...




Actually, looking at the wording, Practised Spellcaster would absolutely work in conjunction with Inspire Greatness.

The feat says nothing about levelling up.  It says "If you later gain noncaster-level hit dice, you may be able to apply the rest of the bonus."

Inspire Greatness states "A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice".

Gaining hit dice fits the requirement to be able to apply the rest of the bonus.

I'd also say that "noncaster-level" applies to the caster level that the feat applies to... so if a Cleric with PS takes a level of Wizard, then even though Wizard is a casting class, it doesn't grant a caster level as far as PS is concerned (since the PS only applies to Cleric caster level in this case), and thus more of the bonus would be able to be applied.

Likewise, while Pal-6 is a caster level hit die, Pal-7 is a noncaster-level hit die, since that hit die provides no increase in caster level.

-Hyp.


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## Thanee (Dec 16, 2004)

I wouldn't count Inspire Greatness as gaining Hit Dice in a nonspellcasting class, really. 

What I'm basically trying to say is, that I think what they are trying to say/model is, that Practiced Spellcaster just grants something similar to the PrC's "+1 level of existing class" (just limited to caster level) to any nonspellcasting class you take on a one-by-one basis and up to a +4.

Like "this level of rogue improves your caster level by +1 thanks to Practiced Spellcaster".

That seems to be the closest thing to what they describe there. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Thanee (Dec 16, 2004)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Likewise, while Pal-6 is a caster level hit die, Pal-7 is a noncaster-level hit die, since that hit die provides no increase in caster level.




But it's nonetheless a Hit Die in a spellcasting class (Paladin).

Tho, I'd let that fly, anyways... it seems fair enough to allow it, but it might be a house rule to do so. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 16, 2004)

> I wouldn't count Inspire Greatness as gaining Hit Dice in a nonspellcasting class, really.




Which is irrelevant.

They're not hit dice in a non-spellcasting class.

But they are noncaster-level hit dice.  Are they hit dice that provide a caster level?  No?  Then they are noncaster-level hit dice.



			
				Thanee said:
			
		

> But it's nonetheless a Hit Die in a spellcasting class (Paladin).




Which is irrelevant.

It's a hit die in a spellcasting class.

But it's a noncaster-level hit die.  Is it a hit die that provides a caster level?  No?  Then it's a noncaster-level hit die.

-Hyp.


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## Thanee (Dec 16, 2004)

> ...if you later gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes...



 Not nonspellcasting Hit Dice or nonspellcasting levels... nonspellcasting classes!

 Bye
  Thanee


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## Thanee (Dec 16, 2004)

Besides, here's another example, why level loss is kinda wonky in D&D.

 Assuming a wizard who has learned Extra Spell and then lost the level at which he gained that feat. Later again, he regains that level via _Restoration_ and picks another feat (or even Extra Spell again for another spell), the spell would remain in the spellbook. So, he has actually gained something by losing and regaining the level.

 Bye
 Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 16, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Not nonspellcasting Hit Dice or nonspellcasting levels... nonspellcasting classes!




[blink]

I was quoting directly from Complete Divine... did I miss a paragraph, or is it phrased differently in Complete Arcane, or what?

I'm away from my Complete Divine, so I can't check, and I don't have Complete Arcane yet, but CD definitely used the phrase "noncaster-level hit dice" at least once!

-Hyp.


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## Thanee (Dec 16, 2004)

I quoted from CA, since it's newer. Indeed, CD does say something different (non-spellcaser Hit Dice). 

And before you ask, no CA doesn't say, that it supersedes the CD version. 

But in both cases it is bound to HD and thus no go with Wild Magic. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> I quoted from CA, since it's newer. Indeed, CD does say something different (non-spellcaser Hit Dice).




Bizarre.  The CD version makes more sense.

Wonder why they changed it.

-Hyp.


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Why is that making stuff up, which I wrote?
> 
> The feat says "immediately" and "if you gain Hit Dice in levels of nonspellcasting classes, you might be able to apply the rest of the bonus", thus implying that you do not apply the rest of the bonus "continuous".




On the other hand, the text which you say clearly indicates that it only increases when you gain levels in nonspellcasting classes is far from an exclusive statement. As a general rule a feat can be re-evaluated when the character's circumstances change - or would you prevent a warmage who gained battlecasting at 3rd level from wearing heavy armour at 8th? Or that someone who got combat reflexes with a dex of 13 doesn't get another AoO per round when his dex rises to 14?

It's clear that the effect of a feat is reevaluated as a standard thing. Text which says "if X, then maybe Y" does NOT say "if anything not X then nothing".


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## Thanee (Dec 17, 2004)

It's a bit different to those... especially, those other feats do not list anything similar.

In any way, I'm very sure that however you turn it, PS and WM don't fly together.

Bye
Thanee


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## Humanophile (Dec 17, 2004)

I'm partial to letting order of operation work for me.  PS comes after the wild level adjustment (in total), but before the effects of any magic items.  That seems closest to the intent, and it's not hard to explain to someone looking to rationalize something cheap like the wild mage combo.

But then, I'm the sort of person to allow PS bonuses to cover bonuses from Inspire Greatness or losses from energy drains.  After all, it is a feat spent.  Providing nice bonuses in uncommon situations, or being an effective CYA, is part of the game.  The cost is not having another feat that's far more useful in non-exceptional situations balances it out.


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## Thanee (Dec 17, 2004)

You think it's ok for a single feat to basically give a ~ +3 bonus on top of a full caster level progression!?

Wow! Other people need three levels in Archmage to achieve this. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Hypersmurf (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> You think it's ok for a single feat to basically give a ~ +3 bonus on top of a full caster level progression!?




That's not what he said.

He says he'd apply PS _after_ Wild Magic.

So PS will never apply a bonus on top of the full caster progression, for a Wild Mage.  It will only ever remove a penalty, _up_ to full caster progression.

-Hyp.


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> It's a bit different to those... especially, those other feats do not list anything similar.



Well, let's add some text to them.


> COMBAT REFLEXES [GENERAL]
> 
> Benefit: You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.
> 
> ...




Note that the additional text does not change the working of the feat in the slightest. Specifically - if you later gain a point of dexterity from a spell (ie - something which is not a magical item), then you can still use the feat with the newly improved dex bonus. The added sentence is not restrictive in the slightest.


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## Thanee (Dec 17, 2004)

It looks pretty similar to me, in a way...

CR: If your Dex bonus changes, your additional number of AoO changes.
PS: If your level changes, your caster level changes.

Both set when the change occurs, but CR does it in a way, so that it works just like a dynamic change, altho it isn't one.


@HS: Right, mixed that up there, make it ~ +1 (50%: +0 / 50%: d3) instead of ~ +3 (d6) then. Still a 1 levels of Archmage High Arcana equivalant.  More importantly, it is still against what WM is all about, an uncontrollable fluctuation of your magical powers. I really don't see PS as something, which should allow one to control it, apart from, that the feat doesn't allow it, anyways. 

Bye
Thanee


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 19, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> It looks pretty similar to me, in a way...
> 
> CR: If your Dex bonus changes, your additional number of AoO changes.
> 
> ...



I don't quite understand that last bit.
Neither fix when the change occurs.

If a lift says "do not use in case of fire", do you assume that "in case of fire" is the only time you cannot use it? Do you often find yourself being forced to ride a lift up a story in a building even if you don't want to?

The point was that specifying that combat reflexes changes with dex from magic items DOES NOT STOP IT FROM CHANGING IN OTHER WAYS THAT ARE LOGICAL.

It is not a restriction. It is a clarification. Just like the line in practised spellcaster.


> @HS: Right, mixed that up there, make it ~ +1 (50%: +0 / 50%: d3) instead of ~ +3 (d6) then. Still a 1 levels of Archmage High Arcana equivalant.  More importantly, it is still against what WM is all about, an uncontrollable fluctuation of your magical powers. I really don't see PS as something, which should allow one to control it, apart from, that the feat doesn't allow it, anyways.
> 
> Bye
> Thanee



Whether "it's not in the spirit of things" is entirely up to you, but I'd say that it's perfectly acceptable to think that a wild mage might try to compensate for negative fluctuations in his power while still taking advantage of positive fluctuations.


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## Thanee (Dec 20, 2004)

Well, there really is nothing in the feat description indicating, that it would counteract temporary penalties/reductions to your caster level.

There is something in the feat description indicating, that you gain the benefit either immediately or whenever you gain HD in nonspellcasting classes, however.

Bye
Thanee


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 20, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Well, there really is nothing in the feat description indicating, that it would counteract temporary penalties/reductions to your caster level.
> 
> There is something in the feat description indicating, that you gain the benefit either immediately or whenever you gain HD in nonspellcasting classes, however.
> 
> ...




By the wording of the feat, when you go to look at your caster level, you have to work out the effects of the feat.

There's nothing there that specifies that the bonus is evaluated and fixed whenever you gain or lose a level.

All there is is something that says "oh, by the way, if X happens, do Y"

It has no effect on scenario Z.


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## Thanee (Dec 20, 2004)

See, the point is... the part does not just say "if X happens..." it says "if X _does not_ happen, then if Y happens...". To me that directly implies, that X is the only situation normally, when to apply the feat, and Y is the exception to the general case.

Also, what else would be the point of that part, if you would apply the "bonus" all the time (up to your HD), anyways?

Why specify one specific set of situations, which is completely redundant?

Bye
Thanee


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 20, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Why specify one specific set of situations, which is completely redundant?



As an example? Just like in my previous modification of combat reflexes.


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## Thanee (Dec 20, 2004)

That's of course a possibility, who knows what the feat writer actually thought while writing the feat, but it's highly unlikely at the very least.

It's also noteworthy, that they actually changed the text from the CD to the CA version... if it was just an example, there would be no point in doing that, especially since the new version quite clearly suggests, that only when you actually gain a level (and not just any kind of Hit Dice, like with that Bard's song), you can further benefit from the caster level increase.

Bye
Thanee


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## Saeviomagy (Dec 21, 2004)

Thanee said:
			
		

> That's of course a possibility, who knows what the feat writer actually thought while writing the feat, but it's highly unlikely at the very least.
> 
> It's also noteworthy, that they actually changed the text from the CD to the CA version... if it was just an example, there would be no point in doing that, especially since the new version quite clearly suggests, that only when you actually gain a level (and not just any kind of Hit Dice, like with that Bard's song), you can further benefit from the caster level increase.
> 
> ...




Well, except for the fact that it also stops you benefiting from it as (say) a wizard when you gain a cleric level. So at best it's very, very flawed.


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## Thanee (Dec 21, 2004)

Oh, I absolutely agree, that the description could be better. 

Bye
Thanee


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