# Do you think it is reasonable not to tip your server?



## Descartes (Nov 16, 2013)

I just got home from work and saw an article about a lesbian server who was not only stiffed on a tab but the person wrote a note saying the only reason was because they don't approve of her lifestyle. To me that would be like saying my being caucasian was a conscious choice.

Not only was it insulting but in the restaurant I work in that table of haters would have cost me money out of pocket. I typically have to pay out 4% of my total sales, I have to pay the credit card fee, and I only get paid $2.13/hr. So for this person's $87.43 bill I would have had to tip out $3.50 and pay anywhere from $.05-.07 for the credit card they used. That means it would have cost me $1.42 or more to be insulted by this moron.

So following this person's logic it would be totally acceptable for me to go to a tire store get four new tires put on my car and then tell the manager, "I'll pay for the tires but I don't like guys with handlebar mustaches like the guy who just put on my tires. Those things have been outdated since Gangs of New York times. So don't pay him for the last hour and make him pay all the other employees 1-2% of my total bill out of pocket."

So what are your thoughts on tipping servers?


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Nov 16, 2013)

I tip, and generally tip well, unless I get terrible service. I also think servers are paid way too low. It sucks having to rely on tips to make a living. I'd rather servers get paid a decent wage, even if that means raising the price of a meal at a restaurant. I mean, for the most part, I'm tossing in extra money for a tip that could have gone in to the hourly wage of the employee.


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## Deset Gled (Nov 16, 2013)

I think that American standards for tipping have become atrocious.  It's disingenuous of  any establishment to post prices that are significantly below what people are expected to actually pay, and it's cruel to force workers to essentially beg customers for their wages.  However, I also recognize that the root cause of this is not the fault of the workers, the employers, or the tippers; it's the inevitable outcome of allowing the minimum tipped wage to fall so low that it's practically non-existent.  But that's a political rant that doesn't belong on this board.  Since I recognize that my distaste with the practice of tipping is political rather than personal, I also recognize that denying someone a majority of their wage by refusing them a tip would be punishing someone with absolutely no control over the situation, and would do nothing to help change the way things are.

So I tip, and I tip reasonably well.  Over the last few years, I generally find that the amount I tip is based more on my behavior than a server's.  Anyone who waits on my family with two kids under 4 is going to get a better percentage than the guy who waits on me when I'm traveling by myself for work, regardless of the quality of the meal.  I also make an effort to tip in cash, even if I pay with the meal by credit card.  And any time I'm comped something, half of the price of the item is automatically added to the tip.

Since I recognize that tips are a majority of the workers wage, I strongly look down upon those that don't tip because they have a religious or political disagreement with a server.  It doesn't matter if you have a personal beef with someone; they provided a service and you're expected to pay for it.  Furthermore, I think that anyone who has plans on denying a tip to a server should be required to state so up front.  If you think that's acceptable behavior, be honest about it, and stand up for yourself.  Hiding behind a passive aggressive note shows that you know it's wrong, and that you're ashamed of yourself.


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## sabrinathecat (Nov 16, 2013)

Well, I finished an 8-month stint working in a restaurant (some may remember my demented rants about the way the employees were treated by management), so I have a small understanding of that side. (I say small, because unlike the other employees, that job was not my sole income, nor was I trying to live on the meager paychecks.)
I have to say, there is one thing worse than the no-tipper: the person who stole the tip jar one afternoon. For one hour, there's only one person who was working the counter, delivering food, and bussing tables. During two minutes when I walked out the door at the end of my shift, but before I got to the car, the person still on shift called to find out if I'd seen anyone. (Naturally, the security cameras in the store don't work). Instead of the average $2-3 per hour, that day it was $.5. That person didn't rob the restaurant. That person robbed the 13 employees of the restaurant of that day.

Now, I have had poor service once or twice. I tipped accordingly. Only twice have I left the offending 1-penny tip.
I generally follow the $15% rule, or $3, whichever is greater. Yes, that means that for a $10 meal, the server still gets $3.
The notion that employers can assume that employees get tips, and can factor that in as part of their minimum wage, I find... Do I even need to say it? Offensive is the mildest thing that comes to mind.

There was a great sign in one place I walked into once. "If you are offended by being served by someone with a handicap, please leave. Their condition is not contagious, but your attitude might be."
If you don't like the lifestyle or whatnot of some business, don't support the business. Shop elsewhere. Buy some other product. Do I shop at Walmart? No. That's my decision. To shop there, and then say, "Well, I don't approve of the practice of ______" is nearly the definition of hypocrisy. (There's a great video on youtube by Darkmatter2525 about hypocrisy, BTW)


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 16, 2013)

My standard tip is 20%.  If you go above & beyond, I tip more.  If you- not the _kitchen_- mess things up somewhat, I might drop to 15%.  If the kitchen messes up, I talk to the manager about it and make sure *you* still get the tip you earned.

I did, however, leave a 1¢ tip once.  The waitstaff had pissed me off royally, and I wanted them to understand perfectly well that I hadn't _forgotten_ the tip.

It was Easter, and I had invited 3 of my friends to brunch on my treat.  We got the last reservation available, so naturally, we were the last to finish.  When we went to the dessert table, they bussed our table completely and took the women's purses over to the cashier.

It was a smallish buffet hall- the desserts were maybe 15' from where we were seated, and the cashier another 15' away on the other side of our table.  IOW, we were in plain sight the entire time.

We hadn't dawdled over our meal, either.  I called the manager over, and he explained that the brunch was over.  I explained to him that if he expected us to leave at X o'clock, he shouldn't have seated us just 45 minutes before that point, then demanded utensils, drinks, napkins and the ladies' purses so that we could finish our meal in peace.  I got it.

When I paid, I left the aforementioned penny tip.  And I haven't been back to a brunch at that location since.


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## Enforcer (Nov 16, 2013)

I also work in restaurants in a FOH (front-of-house) capacity. In the US, you should tip, as that's how we live. If you can't afford the tip you can't afford to eat out. If anyone disagrees (again, in an American context where the server makes minimum wage or often less than minimum wage), feel free to apply for a job FOH and put your money where your mouth is.

That said, I like that some restaurants are bucking the trend and imposing a flat service charge and then pay FOH an hourly rate well-above minimum wage. My current employer does that and it works out well (especially with overtime). It's not as much as I made in a normal tipping environment, but it's nice to be able to budget with a predictable income and it's also nice not having to worry about the table of stereotypically poor tippers. Tipping causes lots of anxiety among restaurant employees, especially in fine-dining restaurants where the server often has to tip out to a back waiter, food runners, bartenders, glass- and silver-polishers, baristas, somms, etc.

What's funny is that there are some who've complained about restaurants who've made this paradigm shift as they no longer have the ability to punish their server for perceived poor service. If going out to eat is part of one's desire to have a power-trip, that's the wrong reason to go out... And anyways, if you don't like the service that's when you ask for the manager. Most of us care about what we do and want the customer to be happy, if for no other reason than it's more pleasant for the server to deal with happy tables than unhappy ones during a 10-14 hrs. shift.


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## Joker (Nov 16, 2013)

Is that legal in all states?  Paying less than the minimum because you might get tips.  I mean, they wouldn't be called tips if all they do is make up the difference between sub-minimum and minimum wage, would they?


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

My wife is a waitress and I waited tables and delivered pizzas all through college (continuing for several years after as well) so I always leave a tip. People count of them to pay the bills.


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## Morrus (Nov 16, 2013)

It's something I struggle to remember the customs for when I visit the US. Restaurants not so much - I just never know who else I'm supposed to tip!


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## Joker (Nov 16, 2013)

Morrus said:


> It's something I struggle to remember the customs for when I visit the US. Restaurants not so much - I just never know who else I'm supposed to tip!




I feel the same way.  The Dutch aren't known for being tippers so when they eat at something like a highway diner stateside they'll think the food is really cheap and leave without tipping.  These are generalizations of course.  There are many exceptions.  However, many tourists may not know the 15% tipping "rule" in the States.

Here if we tip, it's usually a flat rate as opposed to a percentage.  One or two euros is the norm.  Or we round off to the nearest whatever.

Knowing now that in the States some restaurants pay such abysmally low wages, I'll tip more when I visit.


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## Ahnehnois (Nov 16, 2013)

I don't think I've ever not tipped. The only circumstance where I wouldn't is if the server did something so offensive that I felt the need to walk out and not pay entirely. Thankfully, that hasn't happened.

The notion that staff can be paid less than the (already inhumane) minimum wage and make it up with tips is basically one big scam, but I don't know how that culture can be changed. As it is, the wait staff needs to eat. If I don't have enough money to tip, I don't have enough money to eat out at all.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 16, 2013)

I have left without tipping, and my tips are based on the same way I get bonuses at work, how well people do. If you do a good job I go between 10 and 15%, but if your rude, or just not nice, or mess up my order... no Im not tipping bad service.

Example: before saterday night game me and my friends go out to eat. One day we had very poor service, we sat for twenty or so mins before we got our drinks, our meals came before our appaatisers, and one of us had to send  back our meal it was under cooked.

$90 bill no tip

When i was a kid i worked at a pizza place as a cook/dishwasher and remeber the wait staff howling about tips... every single one of them made more by tips then I did, but they could take breaks when ever well mine where scheduiled. If we messed up they screamed at us, but on a perfect saterday night where they were leaving with a hundred or so in tips, I was still only paid 4.50 an hour and they got 2.75 an hour so it wasnt that far off. So I never felt tipping was fair or needed.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I have left without tipping, and my tips are based on the same way I get bonuses at work, how well people do. If you do a good job I go between 10 and 15%, but if your rude, or just not nice, or mess up my order... no Im not tipping bad service.
> 
> Example: before saterday night game me and my friends go out to eat. One day we had very poor service, we sat for twenty or so mins before we got our drinks, our meals came before our appaatisers, and one of us had to send  back our meal it was under cooked.
> 
> ...





The issue is, you were a kid working at a pizza shop. The cooks may also have been underpaid, but that isn't the fault of the wait staff. There are men and women raising families and paying bills working as servers. The minimum wage for servers varies by state, but here in Mass it is 2.63, which is not a living wage. People absolutley rely on tips to pay the bills. How much you make once tips are factored in varies from restaurant to restaurant. You might average 12-13 an hour at a descent restaurant (could be considerably higher at a really great one) or you could barely be scraping by if the restaurant doesn't get a lot of traffic. In Mass, 12-13 an hour still doesn't go very far if you have a family. I think it is just common decency, we all know these peoplecget paid below minimum wage without tips, so you factor in tipping as a cost offgoing out to eat. 

If you are truly unhappy with your service, you certainly do not have to tip, but too often i see people blaming servers for things that are outside their control, so they end up paying for other peoples' mistakes. Generally i think its a better course of action to complain to the dining room manager if you are unhappy with your service. I used to be a dining room manager and one of the things they paid me to do was identify the causes of the type of experience you described, so going to the dining room manager will usually help ensure your next experience is better---plus a restaurant that values its reputation will give you a complimentary meal or reduce your bill.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

Morrus said:


> It's something I struggle to remember the customs for when I visit the US. Restaurants not so much - I just never know who else I'm supposed to tip!




That is entirely understandable, and when I worked in restaurants we didn't expect tourists from other countries to be familiar with the tipping standards. When i visited Italy, i had the reverse problem, where servers took it as an insult if you tipped. But it still seemed like you were supposed to sometimes tips, or do so for certain kinds of services, and i had a real struggle figuring it out. Our guidebooks gave some concrete advice, but it still felt wierd because we just were not sure in each instance and often went against our intuition. In the end i just ended up asking people directly, and just trusted what they told me.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I have left without tipping, and my tips are based on the same way I get bonuses at work, how well people do.



  OMG... I get so pissed when I hear, well read, these things. I have in my life been a Pizza delivery driver, a stripper, a bartender, and a waitress. 
In fact right now I work 30 hours as a security guard, and 10-18 hours as a bartender. Let me give you some idea here. When I delivered pizza I was paid min wage and had to use my own car and gas. As a Stripper I didn't get paid at all, in fact I had to pay for the right to dance (club fee vary, but trust me if you aren't getting tips you could leave in the hole). I have bartended a few places, and most are min wage or worse. When I waitressed at Friendly's I don't think I ever even one day made more then $8 an hour. Before it closed, the Olive Garden was awesome, I routinely would go home and figure I was making $20+ an hour. I am doing good right now, but I promise you that I tip 20% or more all the time...


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> OMG... I get so pissed when I hear, well read, these things. I have in my life been a Pizza delivery driver, a stripper, a bartender, and a waitress.
> In fact right now I work 30 hours as a security guard, and 10-18 hours as a bartender. Let me give you some idea here. When I delivered pizza I was paid min wage and had to use my own car and gas. As a Stripper I didn't get paid at all, in fact I had to pay for the right to dance (club fee vary, but trust me if you aren't getting tips you could leave in the hole). I have bartended a few places, and most are min wage or worse. When I waitressed at Friendly's I don't think I ever even one day made more then $8 an hour. Before it closed, the Olive Garden was awesome, I routinely would go home and figure I was making $20+ an hour. I am doing good right now, but I promise you that I tip 20% or more all the time...




delivery also drives your car into the ground. I actually really enjoyed delivery driving, but it is hard work and the days can be so mixed (some days you would do pretty good, but a bad day could be really bad in terms of how much you made for hours of work). There also isn't any real standard for tipping delivery people. I've seen a lot of articles online advising people to tip restaurants rates, but around here when i was doing it, the drivers expected 3 bucks per delivery as a standard tip (it didn't really make a difference to us how expensive for your order was). 1 buck was considered a bad tip. Five dollars was considered a good tip. The only time we expected more than five was if the order was large enough to require more than one trip to the car or was for some kind of event. But expectations might be different outside where i was delivering.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 16, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> The issue is, you were a kid working at a pizza shop. The cooks may also have been underpaid, but that isn't the fault of the wait staff.



 no but what sucks is that everyone was under paid, AND a small portion got tips that gave them MORE MONEY, and that small amount of people would complain to people making LESS money about it when we messed up but when we did good not even a thank you.   Remember it is a big team bringing the food to the table (Wait staff, cook, dish washer, bus boy, greater, front register.) Out of those 6 roles, the person getting that tip does sometimes only 1/6 but at most 4/6 of that.



> There are men and women raising families and paying bills working as servers. The minimum wage for servers varies by state, but here in Mass it is 2.63, which is not a living wage.



  I can't live on my wage either, it is why I need roommates and to cut corners... can I get extra money? 



> People absolutley rely on tips to pay the bills. How much you make once tips are factored in varies from restaurant to restaurant. You might average 12-13 an hour at a descent restaurant (could be considerably higher at a really great one) or you could barely be scraping by if the restaurant doesn't get a lot of traffic. In Mass, 12-13 an hour still doesn't go very far if you have a family. I think it is just common decency, we all know these peoplecget paid below minimum wage without tips, so you factor in tipping as a cost offgoing out to eat.



  BS plain and simple. In my state min wage is less then $9 an hour and MANY jobs that no one tips makes that. Many servers take home after tips MORE then that. I have seen people make $20+ waiting tables at good places, and I have worked for $8.22 an hour on my feet (Macy's store for the holidays) and on black Friday work 14 hour day with only a half hour non paid break... no one tips me for helping get you what you want or ringing the regester. If the argument is that crappy pay equal mandatory tips I should have LOTS of TIPS...  



> If you are truly unhappy with your service, you certainly do not have to tip, but too often i see people blaming servers for things that are outside their control, so they end up paying for other peoples' mistakes.



 Those other people are also working for crap pay and when they do great they don't get bonuses. 



If you see a single mom working part time at Mcdonalds do you tip her? If a guy is on his feet all day loading and unloading trucks do you tip him? If you ask a question to an employee at walmart do you tip them?  I bet the answer is no...even though all of them make un livable wages.

I do tip, but not if I didn't get good service.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 16, 2013)

HardcoreDandDGirl said:


> OMG... I get so pissed when I hear, well read, these things. I have in my life been a Pizza delivery driver, a stripper, a bartender, and a waitress.



You want to compare crappy pay jobs, that's fine. But don't pretend I'm cheap because I only tip GOOD Service.



> When I waitressed at Friendly's I don't think I ever even one day made more then $8 an hour. Before it closed, the Olive Garden was awesome, I routinely would go home and figure I was making $20+ an hour. I am doing good right now, but I promise you that I tip 20% or more all the time...




Ok, Friendly's I know pays min wage to there cooks and even there managers barely make a living wage. When you got good tips because they loved the food (cook did a good job) or when the manager came over to check on the table and they liked that, did you give them any of that great tip? I bet you didn't.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> no but what sucks is that everyone was under paid, AND a small portion got tips that gave them MORE MONEY, and that small amount of people would complain to people making LESS money about it when we messed up but when we did good not even a thank you.   Remember it is a big team bringing the food to the table (Wait staff, cook, dish washer, bus boy, greater, front register.) Out of those 6 roles, the person getting that tip does sometimes only 1/6 but at most 4/6 of that.
> 
> I can't live on my wage either, it is why I need roommates and to cut corners... can I get extra money?
> 
> ...






There is a lot there, but i am not going to waste time debating the reasons to tip with you. The point is, without tips these folks get below minimum wage. It isn't just crap pay, it is below minumum wage unless they get tips. And other jobs getting terrible wages isn't an excuse not to tip.

and the 12-13 dollars was an average for good restaurants. And yes, in mass, that is okay it doesn't go very far if you have a family. Plent of people wait tables and barely hit the minimum wage mark (some don't even hit it). It all depends on where you are working. And lots of struggling parents count on tipping to get that to pay the bills.

regading macy's, that is still above minimum wage, and you can get raises or promotion (my sister works at a department store and sales commission is huge for her being able to cover costs).


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 16, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> There is a lot there, but i am not going to waste time debating the reasons to tip with you. The point is, without tips these folks get below minimum wage. It isn't just crap pay, it is below minumum wage unless they get tips. And other jobs getting terrible wages isn't an excuse not to tip.



 sure it is, it disputes the idea that YOUR pay is what determains tips, and makes it YOUR ACTOINS



> and the 12-13 dollars was an average for good restaurants. And yes, in mass, that is okay it doesn't go very far if you have a family. Plent of people wait tables and barely hit the minimum wage mark (some don't even hit it). It all depends on where you are working. And lots of struggling parents count on tipping to get that to pay the bills.



And that sucks, I feel for them, but that doesn't equal I should give them money for nothing...



> regading macy's, that is still above minimum wage, and you can get raises or promotion (my sister works at a department store and sales commission is huge for her being able to cover costs).



I wasn't on commison, and for the record neaither were any of the other TEN PEOPLE IN MY TRAINING CLASS... we were on our feet working every bit as hard as waitstaff, and had 0 chance of making more then min wage but were making min wage... Yes the server could work for $2 an hour, but if they do well they make much more... no matter how well I worked I was capped.

by the way since you brought up commission, most people give commission people a hard time, they only get paid at allif they sell. I had that job too. Try working a week with 0 income because no one bough tanything, and worse instead of a thank you tip you got called names, hung up on and where told to stop bugging you. 

A big reason I dislike 'mandatory tipping' is because it is always shoved down our throats 'they make so little' but so do other people.

1st min wage... it's a joke. Here in my state even a crappy run down slum is $600-$800 a month... nothing included, add $100 a month in electric, another $120 for cable/internet/phone... half a tank of gas a week is $120 a month. Even if your really cheap and only spend $65 a week on grocery's that $260 a month, so with no car payment, no insurance and no going out and never replacing clothing you are at $1,200- $1,500 a month. 
	Lets say you work 40 hours, at $10 an hour that is $1,200 Before taxes... and again the min wage in my stat is $8 and change.

2nd there is a amount of BS involved in being asked for something. If I tip a good server, and a bad server equaly then it isn't a tip, it is a bill. 

3rd It is abratry that it is set at 15% or 20%, if I order a $35 steak is it harder for her to get it to me then a $9 cheese burger? What if I order a Beer $7 then a second beer $7 or get a Soda with refills $2.50 why tip $5.25 on the stake and $1.35 for the burger... it is the same work? Worse If I drink the 2 beers that is $14 so tip $2.10 for two trips, but 5 refills of the soda is $0.40??  Lets take my fav example. I go to fridays and order a 2 for $12, and water I get an appatiser of fried mozzerella, and drink a whole glass of water with it, then I get my burger and drink a glass with it. Me and my friends hang out for a bit and I drink another. So 3 trips for drinks, a trip with an appatiser, a trip with the burger and most likely a trip to bring me mustard for the burger... $12 + $1.80 tip, I round up and give $14 keep the change no one  bats an eyelash.  However if I order a Steak (14.95) and salad (4.95) and a Beer that I will nurse the whole meal (6.95) she is doing LESS work for my meal, and my meal is $26.85 if I tip the same $2 that is considered rude... why, was the steak order so much harder? But now I am supposed to tip $4.03 brining it up to $30.88. Now if I round it down to $30 is that still rude? Or do you think I should pay $31??


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

Okay Mr. Pink


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 16, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> Okay Mr. Pink




Um... I am hopeing by the smily face that isn't some insult? but I don't get it...


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Um... I am hopeing by the smily face that isn't some insult? but I don't get it...




It is a reservoir reference and it was a joke. Steve Buschemi's character (Mr. pink) makes an argument for not tipping waitresses. He hits some of the same points as you. I would post a clip but it is loaded with swear words.


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## Morrus (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> Um... I am hopeing by the smily face that isn't some insult? but I don't get it...




He's referring to the fact that your position is identical to that portrayed by the character Mr. Pink (played by Steve Buscemi) in the movie _Reservoir Dogs_.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 16, 2013)

Morrus said:


> He's referring to the fact that your position is identical to that portrayed by the character Mr. Pink (played by Steve Buscemi) in the movie _Reservoir Dogs_.




Ok, I know of the movie but never saw the whole thing...thanks I would never have picked up on that joke. Ok, maybe I would agree with his rant


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> by the way since you brought up commission, most people give commission people a hard time, they only get paid at allif they sell. I had that job too. Try working a week with 0 income because no one bough tanything, and worse instead of a thank you tip you got called names, hung up on and where told to stop bugging you.




i hope my reference to commission wasn't perceived as a knock on sales people. My father was a sales man, still is in fact, and I have very high regard for the occupation. I also think the way commission works, though brutal sometimes, is okay because people know you have to make sales going into it. You need the talent and skills, plus you have to work hard, but you can earn good money in sales and sales doesn't care what degree you have or where you come from. People with or without college background can get into and make a living based off their performance. Still it isn't for everyone. My dad did well, but even he had some rough years early on, and rough years on commission can be a real struggle. But the expectations for commission jobs are different from waitress jobs. With waitressing you expect to make some decent money if you work hard and do well, but you still expect that tips average out to minimum wage on bad days. With sales it is more extreme. You might make zero or close to it if you dont get sales, but you can make a lot more money than a server can if you do really well. 

My feeling is, servers count on tips, and it is just common decency to pay them. You don't have to. No on can make you, but you ought to pay some minimum amount. And if the server does really well, then pay them a bit more. I think if you are truly upset with the service it is much better to complain to the manager.


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## GMforPowergamers (Nov 16, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> i hope my reference to commission wasn't perceived as a knock on sales people. My father was a sales man, still is in fact, and I have very high regard for the occupation. I also think the way commission works, though brutal sometimes, is okay because people know you have to make sales going into it. You need the talent and skills, plus you have to work hard, but you can earn good money in sales and sales doesn't care what degree you have or where you come from. People with or without college background can get into and make a living based off their performance. Still it isn't for everyone. My dad did well, but even he had some rough years early on, and rough years on commission can be a real struggle.




I didn't think it was a knock on salesmen, but I find it funny we feel the same way, but mine means I see tipping differently. I wont buy something I don't want/need just because the guy is on commission (although I am always nice to them, say things like "Sorry, not today) 

just to put it another way:

I also think the way tipped wages, though brutal sometimes, is okay because people know you have to give great service going into it. You need the talent and skills, plus you have to work hard, but you can earn good money as a waiter, and no one care's what degree you have or where you come from. People with or without college background can get into and make a living based off their performance. Still it isn't for everyone.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Nov 16, 2013)

The idea that someone sat down and said "I really want to be a waitress and make $2 an hour" is funny in my mind. I need money, and $2 an hour plus tips is better then 0.  I would much rather work as a guard (I make more then double my state min wage an hour) then a bartender, but I don't get enough hours. I would rather bartend then go back to stripping, but if my rent is in question I would in a second. (Lucky for me I live with my girlfriend and a roommate right now and we are doing ok so that isn't likely)


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> I also think the way tipped wages, though brutal sometimes, is okay because people know you have to give great service going into it. You need the talent and skills, plus you have to work hard, but you can earn good money as a waiter, and no one care's what degree you have or where you come from. People with or without college background can get into and make a living based off their performance. Still it isn't for everyone.




We just disagree. Sales is an exception for me because it is different from other occupations including waitressing and sales people go in with much different expectations than servers. They are different because the potential rewards for commission are so much greater than the potential rewards of being server. If they don't get tips they get under minimum wage. If they get good tips they can make a living wage. I think you ought to tip some minimal amount even if the service isn't great (if it is bad, just complain to management). If you don't tip, you don't tip. It's up to you.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 16, 2013)

GMforPowergamers said:


> . I wont buy something I don't want/need just because the guy is on commission (although I am always nice to them, say things like "Sorry, not today) .




and you shouldn't, just like you shouldn't eat at a restaurant when your not hungry. But once you go in, you have put the servers to work for you and should tip. Otherwise they are just getting 2.63 an hour and you are still getting food and drink brought to your table (albeit at a rythym you find unnsatisfactory). My issue with this is so often, slow service has nothing to do with the wait staff. It often is a result of bad management, the kitchen, and other factors. If you complain to the manager, the issue causing the delay is a lot more likely to be resolved than if you just leave no tip.


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## Crothian (Nov 16, 2013)

I tip based on service not what people make. What people make is none of my business just like what I make is none of theirs. There is a Sushi place a friend and I go to only at most 4 times a year. Each time the owner remembers us and we get amazing service. It is an expensive meal and I will tip upwards of 40% because it is worth it. But chain restaurants that I might got to once a week or every other week were the service is usually not as good especially considering I'm there when it is not busy so I tip 10-15%. How the food is prepared is a kitchen problem so I don't base the tip off of that but I will ask for a manager if it is under cooked or other problem. 

I know it is a tough job I was a waiter one summer and never want to do it again.  I reward the good ones.


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## Olgar Shiverstone (Nov 16, 2013)

Good grief -- is the waitstaff minimum _still_ $2.13 an hour?  It was that rate 20 years ago when my wife (then girlfriend) was waiting tables just out of college.  We both remember well how much that sucked, especially when she pulled a lunch shift in a town that was mostly retirees.

As a result, our tip baseline for average service is 20%.  You'd have to give me horribly bad service to tip below 15%, and I'll tip 30-40% for exceptional service.

I do struggle with tipping etiquette for areas where people seem to be asking for tips but no service is actually required -- whether a tip jar at the checkout of a fast food joint, or tipping the for curbside takeaway when picking up a called-in order.  I'd hope those folks are not earning the waitstaff minimum, because handing me my order hardly counts as service.  Delivery drivers I've got, that involves effort and investment, but handing a bag over the counter isn't quite the same thing. What do you think there?


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## sabrinathecat (Nov 16, 2013)

Joker said:


> Is that legal in all states?  Paying less than the minimum because you might get tips.  I mean, they wouldn't be called tips if all they do is make up the difference between sub-minimum and minimum wage, would they?




Depends on the State. In California, yes, restaurants can pay as little as $6.5 with the assumption that the other $1.5 will be covered by tips.


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## HardcoreDandDGirl (Nov 16, 2013)

Olgar Shiverstone said:


> Good grief -- is the waitstaff minimum _still_ $2.13 an hour?  It was that rate 20 years ago when my wife (then girlfriend) was waiting tables just out of college.



 yes, yes it is. To put this in perspective, On my shift at the bar I make $3.00 an hour plus tips and bonus.  The bonus is if I push the drink of the week and sell enough I get a $10 bonus per day I make it. Friday nights I almost always bonus out.  What I need to push and how much varies by week.


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## sabrinathecat (Nov 16, 2013)

The sad thing is, No matter what minimum wage is set to, it is not a living wage. And I doubt it ever will be.
I think there's an assumption that if you are any good, you will be promoted past minimum wage, or find a better job. Once again, this model is based in a different reality from the one currently available. If there are no promotions, and there are no better jobs, people are STUCK. It isn't that they are 'losers', it is that the opportunities simply aren't there. Believe me, not one of the FoH employees at the restaurant I was working at would stay there for a single extra shift if there was anything better available. The ones who escape were those who had friends who helped them get jobs elsewhere, but that hasn't happened in 2 years. The others ended up moving out of state entirely because California was just too expensive for the crap pay and worse conditions imposed by the restaurant management.


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## trappedslider (Nov 16, 2013)

here is by the numbers http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm and http://www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm and http://www.minimum-wage.us/

I do believe however that California is going up to 10/hr (2015 or 2014)  instead of the current 8/hr which puts it at the highest, the current highest minimum wage is in Santa Fe at 10/hr which itself isn't high enough to even live there.


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## Klirshon (Nov 16, 2013)

For additional information on the subject of tipped wages in the US, I will provide a link. http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs15.htm


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## Kramodlog (Nov 16, 2013)

15% of the bill is my usual tipping, more if the service was great, less if it was terribad. Here the minimum salary for people working for tips is 8,75$ an hour.


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## JamesonCourage (Nov 16, 2013)

On a related note, I worked as a pizza delivery driver years ago, and my expectations varied. If I averaged $2 per place I was pretty happy, but roughly half the people I delivered to paid me less than a dollar. (If I owed them $2.45 back, they'd take the $2, but tell me to keep the 45 cents. So generous!)

Mind you, $2 isn't a great tip, but it added up where I worked, which was pretty busy in the evening. I felt good with a $3 tip, and anything over that was great. I did get paid for gas, but apparently most places pay even less for gas now (7 years later), even though gas prices have gone up.

On another note, I've never really minded when people honestly can't afford to tip. Yes, it'd be nice if they could, but if I got paid in bills and then the last $3 in coins, it's clear that you've scraped up what you can to be able to afford the pizza. Sometimes even poor people need to splurge. It's good for mental health. It makes being poor more bearable in the long run. It gives you a tiny bit of relief, and something to look forward to next time, as sad as that might be. (I say this bit as a guy who lived in his car for 3 years... mind you, it was by choice, and I had a waterbed and wireless internet, but I was still poor.)

Also, if you can't afford much, and indicate that, you always were okay with me. Someone giving a $1 tip and saying "I know that doesn't go far, but..." and then trailing off will get a pass. You gave what you could; you get my thanks.

And children always got a pass on tipping. I just didn't expect them to know that they were supposed to. If someone between the ages of 8 and 15 answered the door, I figured that there was no tip, and I wouldn't get too upset by it. And people might be surprised how often this can happen. (It's not super often, but I wouldn't consider it rare, either.)

The people that I disliked most when it came to tipping were the people that gave me the coins back as a tip, the people that didn't tip (these two made up roughly 50% of the people I delivered to), and the people that literally said "I'll get you next time." Yeah, sure you will.

Overall, though, some people can be amazingly generous. The people that tip $10+ (those are rare, but they do happen, especially on $90 orders) are awesome, and I'll always remember the specifics on those orders over the "here's $0.08, bye." The awesome tippers out there make up for a lot of bad people, and can really turn your day around, as the guy getting tipped. Not just financially (by making up for other tippers), but they can restore a bit of faith in your local humans on a particularly bad day. So, cheers to you awesome tippers.


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## jonesy (Nov 16, 2013)

Over here the minimum for untrained waiters is a bit over 10 euros an hour (about 14 US dollars, I think), and the custom is you tip extra for good service only (and nobody will think you are rude if you don't tip).

As has been mentioned, in some countries tipping is considered downright rude (Italy and Switzerland come to mind). Then there are countries like Spain where they have tip jars for tourists, but locals aren't expected to tip (they are in effect trying to take advantage of those tourists who come from countries with a tipping custom). In Turkey you are expected to tip hotel staff, and in Austria taxi drivers. So the custom varies a lot. In Japan friends of mine were chased down by a waiter who handed them the tip back with a scathing "Do you think I'm trash?" remark.


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## Scott DeWar (Nov 17, 2013)

I tip as well as possible as I was a waiter a long time ago.

Jonesy, I agree with the good service rule, and on a personal note life style, color, religion or any other reason to not tip is ludicrous. period.


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## sabrinathecat (Nov 17, 2013)

Japan is also a country where you don't tip most places.
but be vary careful when picking up your change at the grocery store!


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 17, 2013)

How do you mean?


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## Descartes (Nov 17, 2013)

Wow didn't think this would get so many responses. It looks like the majority of people here tip well and understand not to punish a server for something that's not within their control. 

Most servers I've worked with are going to school for something else, in which case it is a perfect job. You have the potential to actually make a livable wage, you have a flexible schedule that can work around your classes, and you can work shorter shifts to give yourself time to study.


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## Elf Witch (Nov 18, 2013)

I think people who don't tip are cheap and should stay home. I can understand if the service was very bad and there was no reason for it or if the waiter was rude. But if your appetizers come out late or the food is uncooked that is not the waiters fault it is the kitchen and not tipping is a dick thing to do. In a case like that complain to the manager. I have seen a waiter slammed with tables because someone called in sick and customers punish the waiter for not getting drinks out fast enough or getting back quickly for refills. 

I think waiters should be paid a full salary and we do away with tipping. Other countries do it and don't have horrible service. 

comparing McDonalds workers to waitresses is not fair Mcdonald pays at least minimum wage and used to pay a little higher. Restaurants are supposed to make up the difference in tips if it is not minimum wage but a lot don't.


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## Jan van Leyden (Nov 18, 2013)

Our custom in Germany is to give a small tip by rounding the bill. Any tip higher than - say - 10% of the bill would be considered generous.

Restaurants I frequent are either family-run or employ students as waiters, whom I expect to have additional sources of income.

As for the original post: such a schoolmasterly behaviour dissing other people openly for their lifestyle is just a shame. The guy probably felt good that he could demonstrate his (percieved) superiority. But any countermeasure probably just strenghtens his believe that society is going down the drain.


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## SkidAce (Nov 18, 2013)

I think waiters should be paid a full salary (like [MENTION=9037]Elf Witch[/MENTION]) and THEN we should tip or not tip based on service.

Of course I'm old enough to have been tipped for pumping gas...


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## SkidAce (Nov 18, 2013)

Oh and RE: Op...

tip/not tip based on lifestyle is bogus, not our place to judge.  And not the time/or location to advocate for something you approve or disapprove of.  Totally bogus,


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 18, 2013)

Tipping?  I'm firmly in the Mr Pink camp on this one.

But ... but no, in reality I tip and I tip well.  I understand any job with 'Customer Service' in the description sucks and sucks hard.  These people don't get paid nearly enough to deal with the crap they do and are literally counting on you to tip them.  It's simply part of the cost of the meal.  I get on anyone I'm with who doesn't tip or doesn't tip well.  It's not right.  Oh, and I like to revisit places and rule number one if you're gonna go back is Don't Bleep With the People Who Serve Your Food.  

When tipping I like to go 20% - though it appears that the cultural shift in America is making that the standard rather than the high standard so I may need to up it.  If I'm tipping a bartender and I'm not running a tab or it's an open bar, the rule is $1 per drink.  Every time you get a drink leave them a dollar.  If you run a tab 20% or over is the rule, IMO.

When I was in Greece I met quite a few Brits and we had some fun conversations.  Invariably as we met during dinner or lunch tipping would come up.  I found I had to defend the practice.  The response to my defense was always 'you should pay wait staff more and just not tip' to which I always responded 'yes, we should but since we don't we absolutely must tip'.  That's something I think a lot of people from over wherever forget.  What the rules should be and what they are differ and you really should just leave a tip.  Oh, and in Greece?  Man, we tipped a cabby 5 Euro and he treated us like we were royalty.  When people aren't used to tips they really do appreciate it.  We knew we didn't need to tip but we always did - we were on vacation, yanno?  Plus anything a couple of Americans can do to even marginally increase the general perception of Americans overseas is something they need to do.


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## Umbran (Nov 18, 2013)

Jan van Leyden said:


> Restaurants I frequent are either family-run or employ students as waiters, whom I expect to have additional sources of income.




Ah, you see, in the US, if you have a student as a waiter, you kind of expect them to *not* have another source of income.  They're working as a waiter because they're busy studying, but the income their family provides is not sufficient for their needs.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 18, 2013)

I think the bottom line here is this: Don't expect wait staff, bartenders, etc to have additional income.  That's a pretty dangerous assumption and it really isn't going to save you enough money to make up for the damage you may be doing to the person you made the assumption about.


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## Jan van Leyden (Nov 18, 2013)

Umbran said:


> Ah, you see, in the US, if you have a student as a waiter, you kind of expect them to *not* have another source of income.  They're working as a waiter because they're busy studying, but the income their family provides is not sufficient for their needs.




Okay; I just made a mental note to get informed before I travel to the US. And regarding the abysmal salaries given in this thread, I can just shake my head.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 18, 2013)

Speaking as an American, the numbers are truly appalling.  That said, some people can and do make a lot of money working for tips.  They're the exception, though.


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## Klirshon (Nov 18, 2013)

Also when you are in the US, you shouldn't give a monetary tip to employees that have a non-tipped wage. They are not legitimately permitted to accept such tips and might lead to disciplinary action from their manager/employer.


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## Scorpio616 (Nov 18, 2013)

EDIT:First part covered by other posts on law and wage...



Descartes said:


> I just got home from work and saw an article about a lesbian server who was not only stiffed on a tab but the person wrote a note saying the only reason was because they don't approve of her lifestyle.



Why did she let the customer know what she did in her off time? 



Descartes said:


> Not only was it insulting but in the restaurant I work in that table of haters would have cost me money out of pocket. I typically have to pay out 4% of my total sales, I have to pay the credit card fee, and I only get paid $2.13/hr.



What? Why are YOU paying for your sales at all? That does not sound on the level, nor does the restaurant putting the credit card fee on you. You 100% sure that is legal?

I think this might be the right web page  for the subject, but I'm not 100% sure. http://www.twc.state.tx.us/


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## Morrus (Nov 18, 2013)

Klirshon said:


> Also when you are in the US, you shouldn't give a monetary tip to employees that have a non-tipped wage. They are not legitimately permitted to accept such tips and might lead to disciplinary action from their manager/employer.




Err, yeah, but we have no idea which is which! Do they wear a special badge?


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 18, 2013)

Morrus said:


> Err, yeah, but we have no idea which is which! Do they wear a special badge?




Yeah, I was honestly trying to come up with a list of who to tip to post here and ... I failed.    It's not exactly a smooth system.  

Waitstaff yes, bartenders yes, hair stylist yes for the most part, someone at Home Depot that takes something to your vehicle ... umm ... not expected so no but I'm sure they wouldn't mind, cab drivers ... I have no idea (we tipped our cabbies in Greece, though), me ... hells yes.  If you ever see me give me money.  All of your money.  

Oh, people at fast food places get paid crap wages but they are not tipped.  Confusing, I know, but IIRC they aren't allowed to accept them if offered.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 18, 2013)

Usually, places where employees are not supposed to take tips will tell their employees to politely refuse them.


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## Descartes (Nov 19, 2013)

Scorpio616 

She did not tell the table about her preferences they assumed it by looking at her. The article in fact says that when Dayna(sp?) first went to the table and introduced herself they said, "Oh we thought you were going to say Dan," and had a little laugh. She brushed off the comment and gave them service like any other table. Apparently her service was not an issue with these people only their assumption of her sexual orientation. They happened to be correct in their assumption but I do not believe that excuses their behavior.

I myself have had people assume I was a gay man because I was waiting tables. I have no idea where this idea of only gay men wait tables came from but in my experience it is only true about 5-10% of the time based on the number of male servers I've worked with and the actual number of them that have been gay.

As for your second quote about why we have to pay other employees, that is common for every restraurant. Hostesses, bussers, and food expos/runners are usually paid $5/hr +tips. Those tips come from the servers and bartenders. Some places make servers pay 20% of their tips others find it more fair to take a percentage of their total sales (otherwise a server could say I didn't make that much tonight and tip out $5 when in fact they are leaving with $100) and divide it among these employees. It is completely legal as far as I know or else I've been getting screwed for over 12 yrs now at multiple locations.

In the long run the percentage of total sales is the most fair to the servers. If they provide excellent service and are tipped over the norm they are more likely to be able to actually receive that money. Case in point last night I only had a bartender working with me, I had 3 tables and rang up $400 in sales and made $85 before tip out. I paid the bartender $4 as opposed to $17 and the only thing he did for me was pour 2 beers for my first table. I was my own hostess, busser, and food expo.

On the flip side though it is common for servers who have a good night to buy a few pitchers of beer for the cooks, and if you worked the bartender really hard get a drink from him and leave a big tip. For the bussers/hostesses/expos if they continually do a good job you tell the manager to turn them loose on the floor if they are old enough.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 19, 2013)

> Why did she let the customer know what she did in her off time?




Among some, there's a near automatic assumption in the USA that a woman with short hair, minimal/nonexistent cosmetics and masculine or gender-neutral attire is a homosexual.  (Ditto for any signs of androgyny.)  They made that assumption based on that stereotype and happened to be correct, but as Descartes points out, that's no excuse.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 19, 2013)

> Why did she let the customer know what she did in her off time?




Among some, there's a near automatic assumption in the USA that a woman with short hair, minimal/nonexistent cosmetics and masculine or gender-neutral attire is a homosexual.  (Ditto for any signs of androgyny.)  They made that assumption based on that stereotype and happened to be correct, but as Descartes points out, that's no excuse.


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Elf Witch said:


> But if your appetizers come out late that is not the waiters fault it is the kitchen




Actually it can be here's why:

1. My husband and I have had servers ADMIT that they FORGOT to put appetizer orders into the computer.

2. The servers have also admitted to us putting in orders wrong as well.

3. Forgetting to get the appetizer(We have had a forgotten side salad and a forgotten cup of bisque from our server).

4. Waiting to get the appetizer order by not coming by cleaning up instead or chit chatting.

5. Delaying putting in the appetizer order such as taking multiple table's orders without being called over rather than putting in the order into the computer.  

6. Dropping the food(never has happened to us, but can happen).

7. Handing the food out of order making the 1st table wait longer than they are supposed to be. (We had a waiter decide to hand a soup that this couple that came after us that ordered AFTER us before our appetizer on the same tray).  He could have done the morally right thing by handing us ours first, but no he wanted to play cutsies.

Sorry, you are wrong in most cases with what you are saying. Do you not go out to eat ever? You obviously never been a server before. I have never been, but I know these things just from having them HAPPEN to us and it's just COMMON SENSE!

Not sure why you think it's not their fault in most cases? First off, they are there to do the timing on the food as far as when they put in orders. Usually servers wait to put in entree orders after they see you have gotten your appetizer or at least waited a little while before putting in your entree orders.



> I have seen a waiter slammed with tables because someone called in sick  and customers punish the waiter for not getting drinks out fast enough  or getting back quickly for refills.




It's fair in terms of *TURNS*. If you have 6 tables, they all as you pass by ask for something(let's say refills), if you make that 1st table wait for you to get multiple table's refills on a tray then that's cutting. You have to go table by table not to have people waiting longer than they are supposed to be. How would *YOU* feel if *YOU* were at the 1st table waiting 10-15 minutes for a couple of refills because your server wanted to get 12 refills on a tray for multiple tables? I bet you'd be pissed too.

My point is, you can do things in a timely manner if you try even if you are slammed.  A lot of servers decide to be unfair making the 1st table wait the longest, which is very unfair. 

For example when a server is triple sat, they should not be getting all 3 table's orders and then heading to the computer, they should be going to the computer after each table gives their orders so the food or bar drinks can get started. The longer they wait to put in our orders, the longer we wait!



> I think waiters should be paid a full salary and we do away with tipping.




No server that's any good wants that, because they make more with their tips.  There is NO INCENTIVE to get 5 refills for each person in a party of 2 vs. a party of 2 that wants only 1 refill with no tipping. Tipping makes the server want to do more because they'd get paid more.  If you get the same pay, why would you work 5 times as hard for the same pay? Is that fair? No, it's not.

I'd rather have tipping so I can control my dining experience with giving incentives to the workers that do well with a big tip and ones that do poorly with a bad tip.  This way, I control my dining experience to make it better. If there's no way to penalize someone WHY in the world would they stop their bad behavior if the boss isn't going to fire them for it, huh? 

Read about positive and negative reinforcement. Obviously you haven't taken psychology, have you? 

You sure need some customer experience with delayed appetizers, because you have NO CLUE of what you are talking about. Most issues with delays are due to your server.


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> My issue with this is so often, slow service has nothing to do with the  wait staff. It often is a result of bad management, the kitchen, and  other factors




Yes MOST of the time it does have to do with the server or another server which is a part of the service.

Answer these questions if you were a server:

1. WHEN do you put in my order? Do you wait or do you go put it in immediately after taking it? If you are double sat or triple sat, you can still go put in each order into the computer after taking each table’s order. By not doing that can result in a much longer wait and that would be YOUR FAULT.

2. FORGETTING to put in an order. My husband and I have experienced this for REAL that servers ADMITTED to our faces they have FORGOTTEN TO PUT ORDERS IN. All of them were appetizers, bar drinks, and a cup of soup.

3. Did you put in the order CORRECTLY into the computer? Have had many times servers ADMITTED to our faces they did not do that correctly. Have had wrong entrées before due to our server putting in the order wrong. Have had wrong bar drinks too due to the server putting in the order wrong.

 4. Did you FORGET ANYTHING I ORDERED such as a SIDE DISH? We have had this happen a number of times as well.

5. Did you DROP anything I ordered? Luckily, we have not had this happen, but I have seen a server once drop some fries from a plate before and I did have a waiter spill some margarita martini when pouring into a martini glass. In other words, it is possible, not likely, but very possible.

6. Did you remember to GET my food? We have had a server do that before. Also, we have had a number of servers forget bar drinks.

7. Did you bring out my food obviously correctly if you bring my food out? Do you realize how many times OUR OWN SERVER brings out DUH mistakes like the side dish is wrong, the entrée is wrong, something obvious is not correct bacon that isn’t covered up isn’t extra, extra crispy when you can clearly notice that it isn’t without touching anything, etc.? Every DUH mistake you bring out is YOUR FAULT I am waiting for what I did order by you wasting my time bringing me the wrong item or wrongly prepared item or forgot something. While we all make mistakes, I would have to say a good 90% of the time, servers NEVER COMPARE THE WRITTEN ORDERS TO THE FOOD, because they are TOO LAZY and DON’T CARE!!

8.  Servers DO wait to put in entrée orders when appetizers, side salads, or cups of soup are ordered. THAT *IS* THE GOD’S TRUTH! Sometimes it’s TOO LONG THEY WAIT! If it’s another server, it still doesn’t make it the kitchen staff’s fault I have the wrong side dish for example since that is something that’s obvious. It’s either my server that didn’t put in my order correctly or this other server that didn’t compare the ticket to the food or that this other server did compare the ticket to the food, but just missed it(HIGHLY UNLIKELY, but possible).

9. WHEN do you come to GET MY ORDER? That part is covered in #2 below.

10.  WHEN do you DECIDE to LET ME ORDER? That part is covered in #4 below.

11. WHEN do you decide to DELIVER MY FOOD? That part is covered in #1 below.

12. Do you, because they are out of something, decide to assume everyone wants the closest thing so you do the ordering for me? That part is covered in #3 below.

1. Once, we had a Red Lobster waitress had our 2 entrées on the tray as well as 2 side salads that were for a couple that wasn’t even there when we ordered. Anyway, instead of bypassing their table to hand us ours first since WE DID ORDER FIRST(common sense would tell you that it takes more time to cook food than it does to fix a side salad anyways even if it wasn’t our server that delivered our food, but it was our waitress that delivered our food), she decided to hand them theirs first off the tray. THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS IN THE SERVER’S CONTROL TO HAND OUT THINGS OFF THE SAME TRAY IN THE ORDER IN WHICH IT WAS ORDERED IN!!

2. Once, we had a waitress that greeted us which we ordered an appetizer as well as our drinks when greeted. I saw she tucking in chairs at empty tables and pretty much doing everything but coming back to get our entrée order. Well, I found out what happened. She brought out our appetizer and when I asked she said that she wanted to wait to put in our entrée orders. The thing is, that delayed us more by not at least coming to GET our orders. That way, when the appetizer was ready, we wouldn’t have gotten delayed eating our appetizer since we then had to give our entrée orders when we could have given our entrée orders WELL BEFORE THAT and we would have gotten our entrées faster due to that she could have just left to put our entrée orders into the computer after delivering our appetizer instead of taking time to order when our appetizer was sitting in front of us. The point is, SHE delayed our entrées as well as to be able to start eating our appetizer because she could have at least TAKEN our entrée orders and then when our appetizer would have been brought out, could have immediately gone to the computer to put our entrée orders in.What she did was make us wait while our hot appetizer was sitting in front of us, we couldn’t touch it, because we had to order our entrées and could have done that wayyy before that. She also delayed our entrées because we had to spend extra time AFTER our appetizer arrived to give her our entrée orders when we could have done that wayyyy before that.

3. Once, we had a waitress that assumed that because they were out of raspberry topping for a cheesecake slice when we had ordered dessert that she’d bring us strawberry. Turns out, she knew when she put in the order that the computer had it the manager told us. So she did it on PURPOSE to be so lazy and uncaring as to not come to ask if we wanted the next closest thing. We didn’t, we sent it back, so she had MORE WORK. Also, she didn’t even think about what if someone is allergic to strawberries. I just honestly can’t believe someone would do that. If they are out of something, common sense would be to come to see if the next closest thing is ok. Not everyone wants the next closest thing. So it wasn’t like it was just getting the order wrong by accident or by not verifying the written order with what she was bringing or putting in the order wrong by accident, this was on PURPOSE to be LAZY and to ASSUME. I didn’t know at first that she did that. I thought at first she just was that stupid(or truly just messed up(highly doubt it)) to bring us strawberries on top of a cheesecake when we ordered raspberries.

4. Your server delays coming to get your order or delays you ordering due to personal conversation. We have had that before as well. Once, we had a waiter that we didn’t know after waiting 15 mins. for a table on Mardi Gras day ask us BEFORE we ORDERED ANYTHING “How’s y’all’s Mardi Gras” “Go to any parades.” See, I don’t mind chit chat with a stranger, but be considerate to do it AFTER we have our orders into the computer so you don’t take up our time.

We have also had servers not come to get our order due to playing around. Sometimes taking a long time or a longer time has A LOT to do with the server:My husband and I have had 3 TIMES where servers FORGOT to put food orders into the computer. We also have 4 times servers forget to get bar drinks from the bar. Once a waitress forgot to put in a bar drink into the computer. Two of the 3 times it was an appetizer and the servers ADMITTED doing so. The third time was a cup of bisque which is normally served before a meal just like a side salad is. My husband and I also have had delays due to that the servers delayed putting orders into the computer when they COULD have such as deciding to buss a table first or decide instead of a mini-greet(I’ll be right with you all), one waiter I saw decided to take a party of 6 people’s drink/appetizer orders instead of putting in our food orders into the computer. I can understand if they call you over, but if they don’t, you should be putting that order into the computer not delaying our food. The longer you wait to put in orders, the LONGER WE WAIT!! So truly think about that MOST of the time when you wait a LONG TIME for your food or bar drinks even, it could be the server’s fault. 9 times out of 10, your server had *SOMETHING* to do with the delay in most cases! That’s the GOD’S TRUTH!

Sorry, but what you just said is not true, it's just not. Be HONEST and think about it with some COMMON SENSE PLEASE!


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## Elf Witch (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1


I worked as a waitress and I do eat out. And yes waiters make mistakes especially if they are slammed. If they admitted the mistake and tried to fix it or offer compensation for the mistake then you should still give them a tip maybe not 20% but something especially if that was the only problem. 

 And if I am so wrong about waiters wanting to be paid better than please explain to me why there are many waiters in this country organizing for better wages let me guess they are all just bad waiters. 

Depending on where they work waiters also have to make salads, desserts bus there own tables. So getting slammed can cause drinks not the brought on in a timely fashion.  It is a hard job customers can be real jerks. You know how many times a customer forgot to special order something and then yelled at me because of their mistake or working my butt off to provide service to a very demanding table and then getting no tip or a laughable one.  

You have no clue what you are talking about bad waiters get fired all the time, using your logic why don't we tip all employees that we can control every experience. And since you don't tip the cook you have no control over how your food is prepared what are you going to do punish the server walk out without paying? 

In the future I would suggest you not assume that you know anything about a fellow poster that way you can avoid coming off so rude.


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Crothian said:


> How the food is prepared is a kitchen problem so I don't base the tip off of that




Not always, in fact most of the time it's the server. 

Do they put in your order CORRECTLY(EVERY SINGLE PART)? I put in orders wrong before when I worked at a donut shop/diner, which I remember once I forgot to put no ketchup on this lady's kastle type burgers. My fault, NOT the cook's. I DIDN'T PUT IN THE ORDER CORRECTLY, ME, MY FAULT!

Do they bring out an obvious error to your table such as the wrong side dish when they took your order?

You aren't thinking with common sense.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 19, 2013)

Spring, judging by the length and tone of your list, I think we are on a very different page. My experience working in restaurants as a waiter and dining room manager and my experience as a delivery driver, is that people often do penalize the server for things very much beyond their control. Absolutely servers do make mistakes as well. The point is there are lots of things you might not see, the server has zero control over, that contribute to bad restaurant experience.


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## Morrus (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1 said:


> You aren't thinking with common sense.




First,  welcome to EN World.

Secondly, please don't make ad hominem remarks like that. Address the argument, not the poster. 

Third, could you please tone down your USE of CAPS. It comes across as very aggressive.

Thanks, and enjoy your stay here!


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## Elf Witch (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1 said:


> Not always, in fact most of the time it's the server.
> 
> Do they put in your order CORRECTLY(EVERY SINGLE PART)? I put in orders wrong before when I worked at a donut shop/diner, which I remember once I forgot to put no ketchup on this lady's kastle type burgers. My fault, NOT the cook's. I DIDN'T PUT IN THE ORDER CORRECTLY, ME, MY FAULT!
> 
> ...




There s not one side to this no matter how much you try and make it so. I have been eating out a long time I am fifty six in a month and for the most part the service I get is good to excellent. Yes I have had bad service and when I did I left a small tip and complained to the manger on duty for horrendous service I left no tip and not only complained to the manger on duty but wrote a letter to the owners.

As both a customer and a server I have seen nasty customers who are the ones screwing up and they take it out on the staff. 

Your waiter at Red Lobster took how long delivering the salad before your main course? BTW the reason she delivered the salad first was that is the way a lot of us or told to do it. Get the salad and other pre main courses out first so that customer has time to eat it before the main course arrives. Maybe you should complain to the management.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1 said:


> Not always, in fact most of the time it's the server.
> 
> Do they put in your order CORRECTLY(EVERY SINGLE PART)? I put in orders wrong before when I worked at a donut shop/diner, which I remember once I forgot to put no ketchup on this lady's kastle type burgers. My fault, NOT the cook's. I DIDN'T PUT IN THE ORDER CORRECTLY, ME, MY FAULT!
> 
> ...




Servars can make mistakes. In my experience though most issues customers complained about in this area were kitchen issues. You would get incorrect orders taken by wait staff but you also get food prepared incorrectly ( underdone , overdone, over seasoned, etc) in the kitchen . 

Now when the kitchen makes a mistake the server is the face of the restaurant and should apologize but you seem way too eager to blame the servers here in my opinion.


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Elf Witch said:


> Springs1I worked as a waitress and I do eat out. And yes waiters make mistakes especially if they are slammed. If they admitted the mistake and tried to fix it or offer compensation for the mistake then you should still give them a tip maybe not 20% but something especially if that was the only problem.
> 
> And if I am so wrong about waiters wanting to be paid better than please explain to me why there are many waiters in this country organizing for better wages let me guess they are all just bad waiters.
> 
> ...




You sure couldn't deny my *FACTS* I see, because they are ALL THE TRUTH! Waiting a long time for anything is usually the server's fault. I didn't say always, but most of the time it is.  I have seen servers wait to put in orders to get other table's orders that didn't call them over, buss tables, chit chat, etc. Putting in orders wrong, forgetting to put in orders, bringing out obviously wrong food, etc. Those are all delays caused by them if they did all of that, NOT someone else.

I already know about servers making salads and desserts. Red Lobster makes the servers make side salads the manager told me. I have beennnnnn knowing this. This isn't news.



> If they admitted the mistake and tried to fix it or offer compensation  for the mistake then you should still give them a tip maybe not 20% but  something especially if that was the only problem.




Most don't apologize for their mistakes no matter how nice you are about them or even they remember at the table something they don't acknowledge they messed up or even lie.  Most don't give compensation, a good 98% of them don't.

Most of the time, it's not mistakes, it's laziness on the job in most cases. Some servers(which most places allow you to write orders down) don't write orders down. How can I feel sorry for a lazy worker? I got back in 1998 at my first job as counter help in a donut shop/diner a raise of 35 cents within only a month and a half.  I am very hard worker is my point, I expect my server to try their best just as I did and still do at my current job.  

Can you truly say you try your best writing *ALL* request down and reread them before going to the table? Can you truly say you check everything you are handing the customer for errors as much as you possibly can without having to touch food to notice the mistake or mistakes?

I bet you would say you don't, am I right? 

You just don't get that most of the time, it's not mistakes, it's pure laziness such as not checking the order, then bringing me my food without my side dish. I had that happen recently, twice the same side dish with 2 different servers over the years.  I mean come on now, do you honestly think they verified their written order with the food *BEFORE* they brought ONLY US TWO people at the table our food?



> And if I am so wrong about waiters wanting to be paid better than please  explain to me why there are many waiters in this country organizing for  better wages let me guess they are all just bad waiters.




Just bad waiters.  As I said, most servers don't try their best. Most are lazy in general. 



> using your logic why don't we tip all employees that we can control every experience.




I honestly wish we could do that honestly. This way at McDonald's, I could get better service.



> And since you don't tip the cook you have no control over how your food  is prepared what are you going to do punish the server walk out without  paying?




I have some control over it by ordering a certain way.  I have NEVER walked out without paying.  I only punish the server for server mistakes, not kitchen mistakes.


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## Elf Witch (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1 said:


> You sure couldn't deny my *FACTS* I see, because they are ALL THE TRUTH!




You really need to learn that your so called truths are in no way universal truths. And you willingness to paint the majority of wait staff as lazy says way more about you then them.


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Elf Witch said:


> Your waiter at Red Lobster took how long delivering the salad before your main course? BTW the reason she delivered the salad first was that is the way a lot of us or told to do it. Get the salad and other pre main courses out first so that customer has time to eat it before the main course arrives. Maybe you should complain to the management.




First off, it was a waitress. Second of all, she could have easily took our entree orders out and left the side salads in the kitchen since WE DID ORDER BEFORE THEY WERE IN THE BUILDING EVEN, it's ONLY FAIR.  

I did complain to the manager. I told him about why we left a dollar.  She cut in front of our turn. WE ORDERED FIRST. As far as management is concerned, HOT FOOD COMES FIRST.  Don't tell me they don't tell you that. That's BS.

Those other people's turns were well after we had been ordered when they ordered their side salads.  

I don't care if they told me to do that, because there's no way I would DIS someone's turn like that.  That's CUTTING!  

Do you understand what happened?

We ordered around 11:15a.m. on a Friday.  They came in let's say probably 11:25p.m. or so, ordered their food.  Let's say they gave their order 11:30p.m.  It was around 11:50-11:55p.m. finally she comes with a tray with THEIR 2 side salads and OUR 2 ENTREES. Instead of just bringing out our 2 entrees or instead of just bypassing their table to give us our HOT FOOD that we ORDERED WELL BEFORE THEY WERE SEATED OR EVEN IN THE BUILDING, she decides to hand them their side salads first making us wait THAT MUCH LONGER for our food.

No manager wants you to give cold food before hot food. That's BS!


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> In my experience though most issues customers complained about in this area were kitchen issues.




Like what?



> but you also get food prepared incorrectly ( underdone , overdone, over seasoned, etc) in the kitchen .




Overdone if something is burnt that you can see or smell without touching the food, it's the fault of the person bringing out the food, so if that person is my server, then yeah, they should have enough COMMON SENSE NOT to serve me burnt food(unless I ordered it burnt of course).

Underdone, which one thing you can tell is undercooked fries.



> but you seem way too eager to blame the servers here in my opinion.




No, my experiences and common sense has taught me who is at fault. You leave one room, go into another forget a side dish, isn't it your fault? Get what I am saying?


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## Elf Witch (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1 said:


> First off, it was a waitress. Second of all, she could have easily took our entree orders out and left the side salads in the kitchen since WE DID ORDER BEFORE THEY WERE IN THE BUILDING EVEN, it's ONLY FAIR.
> 
> I did complain to the manager. I told him about why we left a dollar.  She cut in front of our turn. WE ORDERED FIRST. As far as management is concerned, HOT FOOD COMES FIRST.  Don't tell me they don't tell you that. That's BS.
> 
> ...




First of all your food came out and the same time it did not sit under the lights while she served the salad she just took the salad to their table first. Aldo where was the table was it closer to the kitchen on her path to you that is another decision because that is faster than weaving all over to get them to the customer who ordered first.

You really need to chill out there is no need to shout at me and until you can stop shouting at me I will have no further dialogue with you.


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Elf Witch said:


> You really need to learn that your so called truths are in no way universal truths. And you willingness to paint the majority of wait staff as lazy says way more about you then them.




It is the universal truth, because you can't deny that servers forget to put in orders, put in orders wrong, bring out wrong food, at times drop food, delay putting in orders, hand out food off the tray in the wrong order, etc.

You can't deny ONE thing out of that list I said, NOT ONE, because it's IMPOSSIBLE!

Most servers are lazy.

Do you compare the menu prices to the check prices?

We have had MANY wrong prices over the years, even at restaurants we had never gone to before in our lives, but found the wrong price, then the servers are jerks about it rather than being honest such as "It's a misprint" "The computer" "The older menu(the newer menus aren't out", etc.

Anyone with a brain that can read can tell if a price is wrong or not.  The advertised price is the one lawfully you can only charge the customer. It's not anyone else's fault but the server's fault they didn't get their manager to fix it *BEFORE* they gave us the check with an overcharge on it.

Do you check the food for obvious errors before leaving the kitchen with your written order or if it's not your table, a ticket?

Do you write *ALL* request down so you can remember them? I am sick of the lazy servers that forget something because they didn't write it down(TRY THEIR BEST).

Do you bring out soft drinks/tea/water before bar drinks whenever possible rather than making people wait 10-15 minutes for a coke?

Get what I am saying about laziness now?


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## Springs1 (Nov 19, 2013)

Elf Witch said:


> First of all your food came out and the same time it did not sit under the lights while she served the salad she just took the salad to their table first.




So, that's the point, *SHE* controlled the situation to where it was pure common sense that she knew it was cutting but did it anyways. What a jerk that was.



> Aldo where was the table was it closer to the kitchen on her path to you that is another decision because that is faster than weaving all over to get them to the customer who ordered first



.

It's not about what is easier for her, it was about being ***************FAIR**************************** so she can get the fairness back in the tip if she would have been fair to us. You sound lazy to say if something was easier for her. Not our job to make things easier. Her job to do as what she is SUPPOSED to do if she wants a good tip. So make things easier for her she gets to DISRESPECT OUR TIME AND TURN, WTH??? Give that other couple faster service than us. That's UNFAIR and you know it.

It's about having *MORALS*, which you seem to not have.

Our booth was against the window which faces the front of the restaurant. The couple was sitting in the tables in the same section obviously(since it was our server, duh), but just a little ways from us. Not very next to us, but close enough to see.

She still could have kept those side salads on the tray and came to give us ours. She honestly she have not even took 2-3 seconds to put those side salads on the tray even, because THAT is even cutting even.  So she cut twice actually. The cutting that counts the most though is the handing it out of order. That she did in front of us.  Why are you arguing with me over what is the morally right thing to do? She cut. Cutting is rude, unfair, and VERY INCONSIDERATE. How hard is this for you to understand?


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## Morrus (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1 said:


> It's about having *MORALS*, which you seem to not have.
> 
> How hard is this for you to understand?




OK, that's enough. I asked you nicely and you ignored me. Now you're telling people they have no morals and insulting their intelligence. Take a day off to cool down. If you decide to return after that, here's a reminder of the rules you agreed to.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 19, 2013)

Springs1 said:


> Like what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




sone foods you can tell by looking, others you can't. Hamburger for example is often obscured by toppings and buns . An undercooked steak or piece of chicken is virtually undetectable until you cut it open (or press on it). Seasoning is only discernible by tasting (I have a pretty good sense of smell but it isn't good enough to tell me if your fried rice has too much pepper). 





> No, my experiences and common sense has taught me who is at fault. You leave one room, go into another forget a side dish, isn't it your fault? Get what I am saying?




i never said a server wasn't at fault if they forget a side dish , I said they were not at fault if your steak is undercooked (provided they transmitted your order correctly). 

But it either way, the point is these people still need tips to make a living wage. If you dine out at a restaurant or order delivery , you should factor that cost into the bill because that is how dining works in the states. If you choose not to tip that is your business, no one can make you. But servers are human and the guy who has a reputation for not tipping when he gets impatient or irritated probably ends up having worse restaurant experiences on the whole because servers are going to devote more of their energy to the people who do tip . As an example , if I was on a delivery run and had four items in the car , I would structure my route strategically , factoring in where I needed to be after the fourth delivery and the quickest path to hit them all. But another thing I factored in was tip history. I lived by those tips, and wanted to make sure I kept the people who tipped well happy. If someone didn't tip, they were less of a priority than those who did.


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## Descartes (Nov 19, 2013)

Spring1 I'd like to thank you for your epic level of Knowledge and Sense Motive on the workings behind the scenes of restaurants. The curtain is now down for all to see the blatant truth: Servers are the root of all evil! While I'm coming clean and confessing here I'd like to let you all know that Y2K scare awhile was a world-wide conspiracy orchestrated by servers (with the help of those squirrels from the Sears commercial).

I feel so much better now that's out in the open. Hey what's that "Ignore" button do?


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## Morrus (Nov 19, 2013)

OK, given that Spring1 can't reply,  I don't think sarcastic jabs in his/her absence are appropriate.


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## Enforcer (Nov 19, 2013)

So I missed the kerfluffle. And while Spring1 can't reply to me right now I would like to address a few points. For the record, I've worked FOH (front-of-house, meaning service) for seven years now, mostly in a fine dining capacity. The restaurants I've worked at have all had at least one of the following, usually more: a James Beard Award for Service and/or the Chef, at least 3 out of 4 stars in the local paper of record (in major US cities), and a Michelin star. I've had tables who've spent more than $1,000 a person on so many occasions that it's not really remarkable to me. I've also worked at a couple casual places with great food (no chains) and a much faster pace. Service (especially wine) is my career, not something I'm doing while I earn a degree, and if I do say so myself, I'm pretty damn good at it. That said:


You say you've never worked as a server. I believe you given your other statements. You are not qualified to judge me or any other server, plain and simple. If by fiat I could require all restaurant patrons to work in a restaurant for at least 6 months before they're allowed to dine out, I would do so in a heartbeat. It's not easy, not even at Red Lobster I'm sure. Ever wear out a pair of shoes in 6 months?
Servers do mess up. I've done it plenty, even at the high-end places I've worked at. If you're working hourly/salary at a non-hospitality job and make a mistake do they dock your pay? If yes, is it the lion's share of your income? Is that fair?
Sometimes a table gets their food first because the chef/expediter (the person who controls all of the tickets and tells the cooks when to fire which course) sent it out that way. You don't argue with the chef or the expo. You just don't. They have a better sense of where the entire restaurant is at and what's best for the restaurant as a whole. I've had tables get screwed because a critic/VIP/regular was at the next table. And while that sucks, it's absolutely in the restaurant's best interest to take care of the critic/VIP/regular first.
When you get triple/quadruple/quintuple (happened to me more than once) sat, you can be epic-tier in the Efficiency class and you're still screwed as a server. Sure, if all of the tables are nice, patient, savvy diners, things will go okay. But this is seldom the case: usually there's one or more tables with a litany of dietary restrictions (you came to my fine-dining Italian restaurant and you're a vegan with a gluten allergy, really?!?), good or stupid questions ("So how does this work?" "Well, you tell me what you want to eat and drink and I bring them to you..."), or other nonsense. Or, if you're lucky, it's a high-roller table that will pay off big but requires a lot of time talking about the wine list to make it happen. And in a tipped environment that high-roller table will absolutely get more attention from me than a table that seems like they're yelpers (ugh!)/otherwise judging and drinks hot water with lemon...
Cornell, which has the most highly regarded hospitality degree program in the US, has studied tipping extensively. Guess how much the guest's perception of the quality of service affects the tip... About 4%. That's not 4% of the bill, mind you, which would be substantial, it's 4% of the tip itself. Apparently if you're a young, blonde, white, female server with a large chest, that's worth a lot more than the diner's perceived quality of service.
I personally prefer a flat hourly rate. Consistent income (come January in Chicago if you haven't been saving you're not making rent as the clientele drops by 50% and you're getting cut 2x a week...) and not dealing with all of the stress that tipping causes are well worth the slight decrease in income. And when I'm on my game (which is most of the time) I get additional cash tips anyways in addition to the automatic service charge. But the best reason to do away with tipping is that it increases quality of service. In a "normal" restaurant, the server has an economic incentive to give good service to his/her own tables and no economic incentive to care about other tables or help his/her colleagues. Without tipping, it's everyone's job to provide good service to everyone. In the case of being triple+ sat, the less busy servers can pitch in. More teamwork, better service. 
It's the manager's job to get rid of people who aren't pulling their weight. Complaining to the manager (in a respectful, decent-human-being tone) is the best way to help that restaurant and more importantly your own experience. And when it's a rude person complaining about silly trivialities, the manager can then ignore or sometimes eject said customer. Which is also the best way to help that restaurant and all of his/her employees' experience.


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## Descartes (Nov 19, 2013)

Thanks Enforcer for your insider view. I would like to refute your point about servers not caring about tables that don't belong to them but sadly can not. I've tried in vain to instill this bit of wisdom at every place I've worked, "If a table leaves mad that's one less table you'll have tomorrow." It just doesn't seem to take though. I've always told the servers I work with when I'm shift leader if I hear "Not my job" or any form thereof they'll do extra side work. Every table in the restraurant is your table if you have a free hand.


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## Enforcer (Nov 19, 2013)

Oh, I agree that that attitude is crap, but it definitely happens.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

Umm ... certain people posting in this thread are one of the reasons that I try to be as courteous as possible when dealing with wait staff and to tip well when deserved (which happens to be a lot more frequently than, apparently, some).  I can understand how absolutely infuriating it would be to deal with someone who would complain to my manager because I took 10 seconds to drop a salad off on my way to deliver an entree.  It's insane.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 19, 2013)

Yeah, but I am qualified to judge the service without having been a waiter myself. I mean I have some experience as a patron, I have reasonable expectations of good service and I accept errors, we all make some, but I can see bad service when it happens (which is rare).


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## WayneLigon (Nov 19, 2013)

This article about a restaurant's experiment in no-tipping is pretty interesting. They do two things: fixed service fee AND no tips accepted. It's pretty interesting reading, esp part 3 where he argues that tipping is the _cause _of poor service. Another interesting fact to take from this - esp if you watch things like Restaurant Impossible - is how little profit restaurants make. Many - possibly even most - make none whatsoever; they're able to pay the owner for his time and that's it.

The first part has an interesting bit in it: some people would complain bitterly about not tipping, because they perceived they lost some ability to control the server's behavior. I wonder if this might have something to do with the fact that restaurant servers are almost the last vestige of 'servant' we have left in American culture.


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## Bedrockgames (Nov 19, 2013)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Umm ... certain people posting in this thread are one of the reasons that I try to be as courteous as possible when dealing with wait staff and to tip well when deserved (which happens to be a lot more frequently than, apparently, some).  I can understand how absolutely infuriating it would be to deal with someone who would complain to my manager because I took 10 seconds to drop a salad off on my way to deliver an entree.  It's insane.




I think there are a few different kinds of people who make complaints. There are folks who get legitimately bad service and complain because they are rightly upset. I have no issue with this. If your service was bad, you have a right to complain because you spent money expecting good service and a good meal. But there are also people who are just waiting for an opportunity to be upset and complain. I suspect the guy who didn't leave a tip because the server was gay is just that type. These folks bring their own issues to the table and servers are a soft target for their anger (because most servers know not to react when someone insults them or berates them). You expect to encounter these sorts of people from time to time and that it just goes with the territory. But servers are human and on abdad day, these an pile up and really affect you. I have a pretty thick skin, and this sort of thing never really bothered me much (though i have some pretty good stories about customers insulting me in creative and unusual ways). And i am no longer in the service industry, so i dont put up with it anymore. My wife on the other hand works long days at restaurant and english isnt her first language. She speaks englis very well but has an accent. On days when she gets a few customers in a row that choose to berate her for "not learning the language" that has a big impact on her day and it is infuriating because she does speak english very well and some people just don't understand that speaking a language with an accent an slightly imperfect grammar doesn't mean you don't know the language (also it is not an american restauant so all the servers have accents). I see this most of the time as cases of people going into the restaurant with their own personal hang ups and going after an easy target. 

so i have a lot of sympathy for what servers endure on a daily basis without really being able to say anything back. And when I see someone ready to drop the axe with a checklist of potential mistakes in hand, i have to question if they weren't just looking for a reason to be upset. That said, servers do have a job to do and you can't let those people impact your performance with other customers. Sometimes the customer is just being a jerk, but other times you made a mistake and need ot fix it. The good servers learn to distinguish the difference.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

Bedrockgames said:


> so i have a lot of sympathy for what servers endure on a daily basis without really being able to say anything back. And when I see someone ready to drop the axe with a checklist of potential mistakes in hand, i have to question if they weren't just looking for a reason to be upset. That said, servers do have a job to do and you can't let those people impact your performance with other customers. Sometimes the customer is just being a jerk, but other times you made a mistake and need ot fix it. The good servers learn to distinguish the difference.




And that's what I see here: Someone with a checklist looking for failure.  It's wrong.  People often feel superior to waitstaff for whatever reason.  They think it's some simple job and there's nothing to it.  This leads them to treat people badly.  It makes them think a server working efficiently by dropping off a salad on the way to deliver their entree is actually skipping them or ignoring them.  

People do screw up massively and some people legitimately suck at their jobs.  Complaining or not tipping well in those situations is ok to me.  I don't typically get bent out of shape if an app is forgotten and delivered late - I won't lower my tip over something silly like that - but some do and I guess I can understand it.  It's not my style, though.  I like to get along with waitstaff ... especially bartenders ... for ... reasons.

At any rate, I have a friend in each camp, so to speak.  One guy looks to complain.  He wants an excuse to not tip or to get angry and complain.  It's sick.  Another, though?  Legitimately more than half of the times I've eaten with him, regardless of whether it was fast food or sit down, something about an order he properly communicated gets screwed up.  It's amazing.  I've seen him have a steak sent to him improperly (over) cooked _twice_ in a row.  I don't know why it happens but it does.  Thing is, he doesn't get all huffy and refuse to tip (er, he does get angry with fast food folks), he takes it in stride.  Just weird that it happens to him so often.  Like, I know he's not looking for a problem because I heard him make the order and see it come out wrong.  Bad luck or something.


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## jasper (Nov 19, 2013)

15% tipping rule or is 10% tipping rule or 20% tipping rule Which is it? I wish the law would change so wait staff got min wage. And then the tips were a bonus if I choose to add on. I generally do $2 per whole $10.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

jasper said:


> 15% tipping rule or is 10% tipping rule or 20% tipping rule Which is it? I wish the law would change so wait staff got min wage. And then the tips were a bonus if I choose to add on. I generally do $2 per whole $10.




I recently saw an article stating that the average tip seems to be trending 20%.  What you're at is in line with what's expected, I guess.  But yeah, if these people just got paid a livable wage to begin with ...


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## jasper (Nov 19, 2013)

I have learn to accept the receipt have the various tipping level % and amount. Ticked me off for years, until I discovered my wife had trouble figuring 10% in her head.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Nov 19, 2013)

Zombie_Babies said:


> I recently saw an article stating that the average tip seems to be trending 20%.  What you're at is in line with what's expected, I guess.



Whenever I get a check that has the tipping %s on it, it usually goes from 15% - 22%. 



> But yeah, if these people just got paid a livable wage to begin with ...



Then you'd have to pay moe for the meal, and there would be a rebellion if that were to happen.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 19, 2013)

Imagine the riots at McDonald's...

They would last 5 minutes and than all the fatties would be out of breath.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Whenever I get a check that has the tipping %s on it, it usually goes from 15% - 22%.




Yeah, I think that's how it is here, too - been a while since I went somewhere where they automatically charge a gratuity.  



> Then you'd have to pay moe for the meal, and there would be a rebellion if that were to happen.




Meh, people like us - you know, classy doods on the way up - already assume that a tip of 20% or so is part of the cost of the meal.  Us gentlemen wouldn't bat an eye.



goldomark said:


> Imagine the riots at McDonald's...
> 
> They would last 5 minutes and than all the fatties would be out of breath.




Tee hee.


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## Herschel (Nov 19, 2013)

Enforcer said:


> Cornell, which has the most highly regarded hospitality degree program in the US, has studied tipping extensively. Guess how much the guest's perception of the quality of service affects the tip... About 4%. That's not 4% of the bill, mind you, which would be substantial, it's 4% of the tip itself. Apparently if you're a young, blonde, white, female server with a large chest, that's worth a lot more than the diner's perceived quality of service.




Yeah, this one really bugs the shiznit out of me. I generally avoid chain restaurants like the plague, but I've been a waiter, bartender and FOH manager in my past and while it seems seems the indy restaurants it sometimes goes better but the phenomena is still there. I also saw it when I was a DJ and manager at a Gentlemen's Club where the attentive, attractive-but-unenhanced 28-year-old great dancer made less money than the aloof 19-year old balloonatic with her slow-motion seizures. 

The other thing that bugs me is when something is dropped and people sarcastically applaud. That would be a good example of disobeying Wheaton's Law.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

It is only good to disobey any law from Wheaton.  You see, he was the only thing about ST:tNG that sucked.


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## Enforcer (Nov 19, 2013)

I've had someone clap when I dropped a glass and I flat-out told them to "grow up" in a voice loud enough for everyone around that jerk to hear. My manager then high-fived me in front of the guy. This was not at one of my high-end employers, of course, but it was still pretty awesome.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Nov 19, 2013)

> The other thing that bugs me is when something is dropped and people sarcastically applaud.





Hm.  While I don't do it, I was told it was a superstition.  You're doing so to avert further bad luck, akin to clapping to ward off gremlins or demons.


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## Enforcer (Nov 19, 2013)

This guy wasn't doing it to be superstitious, he was doing it to be a jackass.


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## Morrus (Nov 19, 2013)

Yeah, that's a pretty common worldwide custom, and I've never seen it meant nastily or sarcastically.  It's just what you do when someone drops a glass or something, like saying "bless you" if they sneeze.  if a waiter had a go at me for it, I think _that_ might affect any tip I was considering.  I dont' expect to be chastised for following common social conventions by the staff of restaurants I'm eating in!


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## Enforcer (Nov 19, 2013)

I'm aware of the superstition, but trust me, if you had seen the look on this guy's face as he was clapping, you'd have been set off too.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

Enforcer said:


> I've had someone clap when I dropped a glass and I flat-out told them to "grow up" in a voice loud enough for everyone around that jerk to hear. My manager then high-fived me in front of the guy. This was not at one of my high-end employers, of course, but it was still pretty awesome.




Man, that stuff isn't meant to be mean, it's meant to be disarming.  Hell, I've been to shows where some pretty known DJs have trainwrecked a mix or totally bricked a trick.  The crowd applauds and cheers wildly, the dood waves and laughs and the show goes on.  It's silly, that's all.


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## Janx (Nov 19, 2013)

Zombie_Babies said:


> It is only good to disobey any law from Wheaton.  You see, he was the only thing about ST:tNG that sucked.




You may be unfamiliar with Wheaton's Law.

Sometime after TNG, he realized he was a dick.  So he decided to try not to be.  And after many years of research, he crafted Wheaton's Law: "Don't be a dick."

As that's pretty good advice, it should be obvious that there's an exception to your declaration.


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## Enforcer (Nov 19, 2013)

Zombie_Babies said:


> Man, that stuff isn't meant to be mean, it's meant to be disarming.  Hell, I've been to shows where some pretty known DJs have trainwrecked a mix or totally bricked a trick.  The crowd applauds and cheers wildly, the dood waves and laughs and the show goes on.  It's silly, that's all.



I'm familiar with the concept, really. This one instance was not that.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

Janx said:


> You may be unfamiliar with Wheaton's Law.
> 
> Sometime after TNG, he realized he was a dick.  So he decided to try not to be.  And after many years of research, he crafted Wheaton's Law: "Don't be a dick."
> 
> As that's pretty good advice, it should be obvious that there's an exception to your declaration.




Oh, I'm familiar with it.  I think you may be unfamiliar with his 'acting'.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

Enforcer said:


> I'm familiar with the concept, really. This one instance was not that.




Meh, it wasn't terribly clear from your post.  No biggie.


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## Herschel (Nov 19, 2013)

Zombie_Babies said:


> It is only good to disobey any law from Wheaton. You see, he was the only thing about ST:tNG that sucked.





You miss the etymology of Wheaton's Law. After (during?) his Trek stint he felt like a real "somebody" and once he realized he peaked as an actor with Stand By Me he also realized his recent actions were unbecoming, hence Wheaton's Law as a form of self reflection/correction.


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## Umbran (Nov 19, 2013)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> Hm.  While I don't do it, I was told it was a superstition.  You're doing so to avert further bad luck, akin to clapping to ward off gremlins or demons.




Yes.  In my martial arts classes, we also applauded whenever folks fell down when trying to do something complicated (like, say, a jumping back roundhouse kick) - the idea there was that the person in question was pushing themselves, and that was more important than succeeding.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 19, 2013)

Janx said:


> You may be unfamiliar with Wheaton's Law.
> 
> Sometime after TNG, he realized he was a dick.  So he decided to try not to be.  And after many years of research, he crafted Wheaton's Law: "Don't be a dick."
> 
> As that's pretty good advice, it should be obvious that there's an exception to your declaration.



Since following "laws" o random strangers seems to be your thin. Their is Goldo's Law, that say send me all your money.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

Herschel said:


> You miss the etymology of Wheaton's Law. After (during?) his Trek stint he felt like a real "somebody" and once he realized he peaked as an actor with Stand By Me he also realized his recent actions were unbecoming, hence Wheaton's Law as a form of self reflection/correction.




*sigh* I do not.  It appears you missed his 'acting' in ST:tNG.  He ruined it whenever he was on screen and therefore does not deserve our paying his 'law' any mind.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

goldomark said:


> Since following "laws" o random strangers seems to be your thin. Their is Goldo's Law, that say send me all your money.




It's a good law but you don't get much in return.  The pics were nice but not $34,000 nice.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 19, 2013)

Your mom disagrees.


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## Zombie_Babies (Nov 19, 2013)

goldomark said:


> Your mom disagrees.




Well yeah but she's got more money to burn.


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## Kramodlog (Nov 19, 2013)

Tell me about it. _Redacted._


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## Umbran (Nov 20, 2013)

Folks, the place is supposed to be family friendly.  A touch more decorum, please?


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