# Holy sheepdip - wotc to republish old editions



## thedungeondelver (Aug 6, 2011)

FROM HERE.



> republishing old editions. cant say anything yet but there are plans.






I...I don't know...I don't know what to say.  I'm literally dumbstruck.

As RPG news goes this is the biggest thing since...I really don't know when.

If they do this as actual real products I will buy core *AD&D* books from them assuming they are at scale market price.  And yes, I have tons of copies already from *TSR*.


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## Dykstrav (Aug 6, 2011)

Yeah, my own copies of the 1E _Player's Handbook _are starting to look a bit long in the tooth, and I know that I can get some of my Pathfinder guys (and even a few 4E people) to give 1E a shot. For whatever reason, "official" recognition/support from the parent company seems to matter to some people.

I'm firmly in the wait-and-see camp. I'd love some new/reprinted hardcovers of older editions but I'm not going to hold my breath either.


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## Mournblade94 (Aug 6, 2011)

I would certainly buy older core products from them.  Nothing 3rd edition though.  I would sure buy up as much 1st and 2nd edition stuff just for showcasing.  

I still scour ebay for the stuff I am missing, but I certainly would buy products from them if they started publishing games that didn't deviate so heavily from the D&D I know.


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## Treebore (Aug 6, 2011)

If this ends up being true I can say I would definitely buy such products.


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## thedungeondelver (Aug 6, 2011)

Treebore said:


> If this ends up being true I can say I would definitely buy such products.




They need to not do "Hollywood Records reissues" though; back in the early 90s when Hollywood Records secured the *QUEEN* back-catalog and started re-releasing it they clogged up the CDs with 12" remix this and special guest artist version that.  Granted, I can press SKIP TRACK but that still bugs me.

On the other hand, if they do do that, but tell us up-front, and the "extra stuff" (e.g., "here's Nosnra for 4e") is in removable form, e.g., a "conversion booklet" that I can set aside, that's fine.

I just don't wanna buy a copy of say, *I2 TOMB OF THE LIZARD KING* and find out that it's twice as thick and the map is "reimagined" for 4ENCOUNTERS! or any garbage like that - as long as they say so up front if they're going to do that...[/quote]


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## Sammael (Aug 6, 2011)

If they go that way, I will purchase every single 1e and 2e Forgotten Realms, Planescape, and Ravenloft book they publish, plus a whole slew of generic books.


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## EYEforanEYE (Aug 6, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> FROM HERE.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Maybe it will finally put an end to you grogNERDS nerdraging all the time about other editions.


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## Ron (Aug 6, 2011)

As much as I would like to see it come through, I don't think it makes much sense business wise. Perhaps a limited luxurious edition with a new foreword or something like it. That might makes sense and I will certainly have it.


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## Agamon (Aug 6, 2011)

That blurb isn't much more information than the Tweet from a couple weeks ago.  Republish may just mean getting the old books back out in digital format somehow.  I doubt many trees will be dying for this.  Not that any of that is a bad thing.


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## Jasperak (Aug 6, 2011)

I might consider POD for some items that I don't have, or that I do have but are in bad condition.

I am still kicking myself that I didn't buy the 25th-silver anniversary box set years ago. Would not make that mistake again.


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## Dark Mistress (Aug 6, 2011)

Interested in this in what and how they do it.


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## nedjer (Aug 6, 2011)

If those electronic products are presented in a relatively inexpensive format, on something that works pretty much as well as a book, and handles much like a book, it would seem kind of wasteful not to simply transfer the stuff.


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## howandwhy99 (Aug 6, 2011)

The blog report consisted of this: _"republishing old editions. cant say anything yet but there are plans."_ 

That's very nonspecific. My guess is they will re-release pre-2008 PDFs for sale via online stores.

I strongly doubt this will be hardback book reprints sitting next to 4E books on FLGS shelves.

But, you know. I'm willing to be wrong for this one.


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## Mournblade94 (Aug 6, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> They need to not do "Hollywood Records reissues" though; back in the early 90s when Hollywood Records secured the *QUEEN* back-catalog and started re-releasing it they clogged up the CDs with 12" remix this and special guest artist version that.  Granted, I can press SKIP TRACK but that still bugs me.
> 
> On the other hand, if they do do that, but tell us up-front, and the "extra stuff" (e.g., "here's Nosnra for 4e") is in removable form, e.g., a "conversion booklet" that I can set aside, that's fine.
> 
> I just don't wanna buy a copy of say, *I2 TOMB OF THE LIZARD KING* and find out that it's twice as thick and the map is "reimagined" for 4ENCOUNTERS! or any garbage like that - as long as they say so up front if they're going to do that...



[/QUOTE]

Yes if they publish older additions with 4e addendums I am out.  I even stopped buying Kobold quarterly because I cant use the pages dedicated to 4e.  

If you want to sell me stuff I want that is fine.  If you are trying to sneak in the 4e game I don't want, I will continue to spend my gaming dollars elsewhere, and use ebay to find the old books.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 6, 2011)

I know that blog entry is hard going -- for some reason, he never went back and even ran it through a spellcheck, to say nothing of a more comprehensive clean-up -- but they appear to have given more details:


> james wyatt said that they had offered a year access to ten eberron third edition books for ten bucks. bart carroll remided him that that was for next year and it hadnt been announced yet.



The older material will probably just be rented through DDI.


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## Dice4Hire (Aug 6, 2011)

Agamon said:


> That blurb isn't much more information than the Tweet from a couple weeks ago.  Republish may just mean getting the old books back out in digital format somehow.  I doubt many trees will be dying for this.  Not that any of that is a bad thing.




I agree 100%. I cannot see books being released, maybe maybe the main core book, but I think we are looking at pdfs.


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## Arkhandus (Aug 6, 2011)

I would honestly be quite interested in buying some old D&D materials from WotC if they republished them......never really got to try anything older than 2E AD&D, and didn't get to pick up much of 2E before it went out of print.  So there's definitely some books (or boxed sets?  hopefully?) that I'd love to pick up if they went back into print.  And print is far better than PDF/electronic versions IMHO.


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## Plane Sailing (Aug 7, 2011)

The linked page did also say about producing electronic formats for kindle, nook & sony - linking up to an established ebook standard seems more likely than PDF at the moment, and I'd imagine that would be the case for reprints as well as new stuff.

However, something to bear in mind is that producing electronic versions (or ANY versions) of publications which were pre-digital age printing is going to be hard, expensive work for them...


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## Sonny (Aug 7, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> I agree 100%. I cannot see books being released, maybe maybe the main core book, but I think we are looking at pdfs.




They've also  recently stated they've been looking at print on Demand. In fact, this news would be a pretty big flop if they were just going to push out nothing but PDFs again. 

So I'm willing to bet Print on demand, PDF(or other electronic formats) and compatible online gaming apps will most likely be the combo they use for supporting older editions this time around.

Print On Demand allows them to offer printed books, without worrying about the size of print runs or confusing new customers with multiple editions of D&D on the store shelves and the online tools gives them a way to offer a subscription based products to retro gaming customers.


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## DaveMage (Aug 7, 2011)

I'd be interested in the D&D Gazetteers as some of them are insanely expensive on the secondary market.

However, one of the issues in the scanned pdfs from before was that the quality tended to vary from product to product.

Hopefully there will be some quality control, otherwise it's not worth it (unless, say, they are 99 cents/pdf).


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## Keldryn (Aug 7, 2011)

I agree that this most likely means putting the PDF scans back up for sale.  

However, I think that we could very well see either a limited print run or print-on-demand releases of a few specific books, such as the 1st Edition AD&D PH, DMG, and MM. The supporting materials aren't likely to be put back into print, as they do need to stay committed to supporting their current version of the game.  The 1990s D&D Rules Cyclopedia would be a good choice as well, but the name might be too similar to the D&D Rules Compendium; the AD&D brand on a few collector's edition books probably would be distinct enough to avoid any "brand confusion" issues.

Here's hoping, anyway.  I would love a set of brand-new AD&D hardcovers that don't cost a lot of money.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 7, 2011)

Lots of people just reading the first post, instead of the whole thread ...

EDIT: A clearer summary.


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 7, 2011)

Sammael said:


> If they go that way, I will purchase every single 1e and 2e Forgotten Realms, Planescape, and Ravenloft book they publish, plus a whole slew of generic books.



Quoted for posterity.

I could use some new 1E and 2E books. I have tons, but not all.


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 7, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Lots of people just reading the first post, instead of the whole thread ...
> 
> EDIT: A clearer summary.



The initial post at rpg.net:



			
				Tokezo Tenken said:
			
		

> $10 for a year's subscription to the 3.x Eberron catalogue. That reveal was by James Wyatt (I think) and was not supposed to have happened.
> 
> I was there this morning. Here's a summary to supplement what was above.
> 
> ...


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## Agamon (Aug 7, 2011)

So it's a subscription to access an array of campaign material/sourcebooks?  Interesting.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 7, 2011)

Agamon said:


> So it's a subscription to access an array of campaign material/sourcebooks?  Interesting.



It certainly is more attractive to folks who game with a laptop or tablet at the table (assuming it'll actually be accessible on all devices, which DDI currently isn't).

Noble Knight and other resellers are probably happy that this isn't an all-encompassing solution at this time.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 7, 2011)

Plane Sailing said:


> The linked page did also say about producing electronic formats for kindle, nook & sony





THAT is the big news from that seminar.  We'll see what comes of it.  Oh, and maybe the "open playtest" model they are thinking of adopting.


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## Alan Shutko (Aug 7, 2011)

DaveMage said:


> I'd be interested in the D&D Gazetteers as some of them are insanely expensive on the secondary market.
> 
> However, one of the issues in the scanned pdfs from before was that the quality tended to vary from product to product.




This is actually the reason I'm getting the Ion Book Saver when it comes out. I have all the GAZ products, and doubles of a couple, but I want decent electronic backups.


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

howandwhy99 said:


> I strongly doubt this will be hardback book reprints sitting next to 4E books on FLGS shelves.




Maybe they have news that the Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary edition sold well, and intend something similar?


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 7, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> THAT is the big news from that seminar.  We'll see what comes of it.



Given how badly the Kindle format currently handles images, I wouldn't expect it to do well with WotC's image-heavy game books. (Now, Mongoose Traveller, on the other hand ...)


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 7, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Maybe they have news that the Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary edition sold well, and intend something similar?



The White Wolf announcements, which include new books for V20 and a Werewolf 20th anniversary edition, suggests that it sold very well indeed.


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 7, 2011)

plans != reality

I'll save my clapping with one hand trick until I see some actual results. Hell, I'm waiting to see them publish current material as PDF.

I suspect it's going to be some crap where you pay X amount to have access to an online vault and depending on what you pay will determine what you get access too.


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## Agamon (Aug 7, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Given how badly the Kindle format currently handles images, I wouldn't expect it to do well with WotC's image-heavy game books. (Now, Mongoose Traveller, on the other hand ...)




E-books tend not to have any images, though.  E-books and audiobooks with images are sometimes sold with an accompanying pdf.


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## Reynard (Aug 7, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Given how badly the Kindle format currently handles images, I wouldn't expect it to do well with WotC's image-heavy game books. (Now, Mongoose Traveller, on the other hand ...)




Art in game books tends to be an enhancement, rather than something essential, so proper editorial care should resolve this issue. The bigger concern is charts -- given that my Nook (and others, I presume) allows you to adjust font sizes, charts in traditional PDFs go all kinds of wonky, and charts are essential to many RPGs (especially D&D).


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## JoeGKushner (Aug 7, 2011)

For the ebooks I thought they were strictkly talking fiction, not gaming.


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## Mark CMG (Aug 7, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Given how badly the Kindle format currently handles images, I wouldn't expect it to do well with WotC's image-heavy game books. (Now, Mongoose Traveller, on the other hand ...)






JoeGKushner said:


> For the ebooks I thought they were strictkly talking fiction, not gaming.





That makes more sense.


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## howandwhy99 (Aug 7, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Maybe they have news that the Vampire: the Masquerade 20th Anniversary edition sold well, and intend something similar?



That's a good point. Like I said, I'm more than willing to be wrong. 

If you've looked at the 1E PHB or DMG, the charts and layout are highly customized. It will be a trick to make them electronic compatible.

I wonder if they'll add in the errata?


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## Stormonu (Aug 7, 2011)

It would be nice if the PDFs come back, it would benefit me more if they were cleaned up (the actual text behind C1 - Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, for example, had horrible OCR recognition).


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## thedungeondelver (Aug 7, 2011)

Stormonu said:


> It would be nice if the PDFs come back, it would benefit me more if they were cleaned up (the actual text behind C1 - Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan, for example, had horrible OCR recognition).




Jim and company from *BASTION PRESS* did OK with what they had; I think a lot of their "volunteer" books were in poor shape to begin with*, but towards the end, yeah, there were plenty of scanning problems.

"Oh, hey, I didn't realize that *CONAN UNCHAINED* had unicode and cyrillic control characters in it...!"

*=for those who may not remember...and my god, it's staggering because it was ten years ago...*BASTION PRESS* was the go-to company for scanning the old stuff.  Most things were easy to find - *DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE*, etc. but the rarer things they asked people to donate copies of.  The books had to be completely disassembled and, IIRC, cut apart to put in the scanner they used, so if you donated a book, it was gone...it's one thing to dig up a used copy of *B2 KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS* to donate but it's something other if they're after, say, a set of original *D&D* books.  Although, eventually, they _did_ get everything...


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## Orius (Aug 7, 2011)

Interesting possibilities here, but I wouldn't get too excited until something solid is announced.


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## Argyle King (Aug 7, 2011)

So...  the plan is to allow someone to 'rent' the old material via DDi?  

Meaning I would first need a DDi account and then pay extra to access the old material for a limited time?


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## Agamon (Aug 7, 2011)

JoeGKushner said:


> For the ebooks I thought they were strictkly talking fiction, not gaming.




Yeah, that's what I thought, too.


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> The books had to be completely disassembled and, IIRC, cut apart to put in the scanner they used, so if you donated a book, it was gone...it's one thing to dig up a used copy of *B2 KEEP ON THE BORDERLANDS* to donate but it's something other if they're after, say, a set of original *D&D* books.




These days, they make scanners that correct for the curve of the page at the binding.  So, if they want to re-do some of that old work, and get the right equipment, destruction of the original may no longer be necessary.


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## M.L. Martin (Aug 7, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> Although, eventually, they _did_ get everything...




_Almost_ everything. There were a few odds and ends that never went up--I remember waiting for GAZ10 _The Orcs of Thar_ and _Wrath of the Immortals_ to show up, for example.

   Now, IIRC, reports from the DDI seminar said that they were working on print-on-demand for maps and "other things", so perhaps we will see that option. I like the Eberron subscription deal as a precedent, but I'm worried that it means that we'll only see the stuff that exists in electronic format. Since almost everything I'm interested in getting is pre-2000, that means none of the stuff I want would go up.


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## cyderak (Aug 7, 2011)

I was happy to see THAC0 and negative armor classes go the way of the dinosaur.  I think I'll stick with Pathfinder.


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## Deuce Traveler (Aug 7, 2011)

Johnny3D3D said:


> So...  the plan is to allow someone to 'rent' the old material via DDi?
> 
> Meaning I would first need a DDi account and then pay extra to access the old material for a limited time?




DO NOT WANT!

But if I can purchase older RPG boxed sets, books, and modules from them in either pdf or physical form I will happily be a customer.


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## thedungeondelver (Aug 7, 2011)

Umbran said:


> These days, they make scanners that correct for the curve of the page at the binding.  So, if they want to re-do some of that old work, and get the right equipment, destruction of the original may no longer be necessary.





There is an entire hobby segment dedicated to book-scanning, good sir!

These guys have turned non-destructive flat page scanning into an _art_ and you can do it with junk you have lying around your house.


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

cyderak said:


> I was happy to see THAC0 and negative armor classes go the way of the dinosaur.  I think I'll stick with Pathfinder.





That's nice.  The real (rhetorical question) is why you decided to rain on other people's parade.

While everyone has a right to an opinion, with that right comes the responsibility to find the right time and place to express it.  This above comes across as threadcrapping.


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## OnlineDM (Aug 7, 2011)

I was also at the seminar yesterday morning (extensive notes are here on my blog). My notes from this particular Q&A are as follows:



			
				Online Dungeon Master blog said:
			
		

> 11:24 Q: Digital distribution – opening the vault for novels, what about older editions of the RPG? A: Can’t give specifics (don’t want to say anything until they’re ready to go)… it’s like a band when you like the first 3 albums and when the 4th comes out they destroy the old ones. Not great. They do use the older editions as sources and inspiration for the current edition. 2nd edition had great setting support, for instance. James: If your party is a Wilden Seeker and Shardmind Psion and no dwarf fighter, is it still D&D?




My take on it from reading Mearls in the room is: They're definitely having real talks about what they want to do with older edition material. So far they've at least been mining that material for inspiration for the current edition. However, they do realize that they've alienated a big chunk of the community, and they at least recognize the problem and want to work to mend the rift (a very tall order).

I think they've probably had some proposals about older edition material getting pretty far internally and then backing up, and they're not ready to announce yet because they're still working on their plans. I suspect it will be electronic format rather than print, based in part on the Eberron bookshelf they talked about.

My guess is that if this Eberron subscription thing works well, they will try it with older edition material. I don't think this is what the community is looking for, mind you, but I think it's what's on their mind at the moment. Just my own speculation from having sat in the room taking notes.


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> There is an entire hobby segment dedicated to book-scanning, good sir!
> 
> These guys have turned non-destructive flat page scanning into an _art_ and you can do it with junk you have lying around your house.




I would expect the hobbyists to have developed some very neat solutions that require some rather specialized knowledge and fiddly-bits.  Hobby-solutions are usually not *economical* ones.  A business requires something they can hand to an intern and expect it to get done quickly and well.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 7, 2011)

OnlineDM said:


> My guess is that if this Eberron subscription thing works well, they will try it with older edition material. I don't think this is what the community is looking for, mind you, but I think it's what's on their mind at the moment. Just my own speculation from having sat in the room taking notes.



I think you're right, although I guess it's possible that they could come up with some really clever subscription that would change my mind.

That said, since they built DDI unable to be used by Macs at launch -- because, you know, so many people are playing RPGs nowadays, they didn't need those customers' money -- I suspect whatever they come up with won't work on many tablets, which is just going to be an ever-larger portion of the computer-at-the-table machines.


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## UnknownAtThisTime (Aug 7, 2011)

OnlineDM said:


> I was also at the seminar yesterday morning (extensive notes are here on my blog). My notes from this particular Q&A are as follows:




Must spread xp ....


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## Man in the Funny Hat (Aug 7, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> There is an entire hobby segment dedicated to book-scanning, good sir!
> 
> These guys have turned non-destructive flat page scanning into an _art_ and you can do it with junk you have lying around your house.



I looked at doing something like that but it would have been as much of a project just to build the scanner as to buy and sacrifice copies of the 1E PH and DMG and laboriously use my desktop printer to OCR them.

It still varies a great deal what any individual gamer actually wants to use the old materials for which determines what form/format they really want, including more than one.  I wanted editable text to make new house-rule hardcopy rulebooks with, others just want the old adventures to RUN in their games so they can print even not-very-good quality PDF's.  Others want original hardcopies in hand to add to a collection.  Some want e-reader formats.

What I read is that they are, "_exploring_ options to release old material digitally."  That means whatever they want it to mean from selling the same PDF's they had before, to "renting" copies through DDI, to, "It still ain't EVER gonna happen."  So, while I find this an interesting tidbit it doesn't MEAN anything yet.


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

Man in the Funny Hat said:


> So, while I find this an interesting tidbit it doesn't MEAN anything yet.




It doesn't mean anything concrete, no.  But it does mean the issue is on the radar.  The very fact that they are considering something is more than many expected from them.


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 7, 2011)

Renting older edition stuff is narmed.

I want to OWN. I need backups. I need lookups. I need file transfers, copies, hard drives, and accessibility on multiple devices. I do not need to pay WotC $10/month to keep a bookshelf there. I need to be able to pay them $10 to GET THE BOOK. 

What I want is for it to be a better value than piracy currently is for many people. To be easy, painless, seamless, and cheap enough that a customer would prefer to just opt into the official legal version rather than trawling around in the dark corners of the internet for it. 

If "renting" is the plan, I am not sure it will do well. It will certainly not do well with me.


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## 3catcircus (Aug 7, 2011)

OnlineDM said:


> However, they do realize that they've alienated a big chunk of the community, and they at least recognize the problem and want to work to mend the rift (a very tall order).




That boat has sailed - I don't think they'll ever regain those customers.



> My guess is that if this Eberron subscription thing works well, they will try it with older edition material. I don't think this is what the community is looking for, mind you, but I think it's what's on their mind at the moment. Just my own speculation from having sat in the room taking notes.




I agree - this isn't what the community wants - but again - part of that is probably tied to the fact that they alienated a bunch of people who are now happily playing Pathfinder or previous editions of D&D.

The other factor is - when they were selling pdf products, the consumer knew that they'd have eternal access to it so long as they archived it and/or printed it out.  The idea of having limited access (so long as you keep subscribing, we'll give you the privilege of looking at our shiny-shiny retread that we previously sold to you to keep) will most likely only appeal to people who _already_ are committed DDI subscribers.

I'm envisioning WotC thinking that supplying subscription access to old stuff is going to want to draw in non-4e customers, but I think what will really happen is that only those already playing 4e will access the stuff and then try and adapt it for use with their 4e campaigns.

Perhaps I'm again being overly pessimistic about WotC's business sense conflicting with reality (the previous time being my comments about their plans for providing pdfs of 4e products via activation codes in the backs of hardcovers - and Rouse's thinking that I called him a liar - even though history has shown my prediction at the time to be closer to the truth than not), but my prediction this time is that providing subscription-based access to older editions won't appreciably grow their customer base.


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 7, 2011)

cyderak said:


> I was happy to see THAC0 and negative armor classes go the way of the dinosaur.  I think I'll stick with Pathfinder.



I heard that Pathfinder 2.0 is going to bring back THAC0.*



Kamikaze Midget said:


> Renting older edition stuff is *narmed*.









*The little voices told me.


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## merelycompetent (Aug 7, 2011)

Umbran said:


> I would expect the hobbyists to have developed some very neat solutions that require some rather specialized knowledge and fiddly-bits.  Hobby-solutions are usually not *economical* ones.  A business requires something they can hand to an intern and expect it to get done quickly and well.




I have *some*, now outdated (7-8 years ago) semi-pro knowledge of this due to my day job. Typically, businesses will contract the scanning out to pro shops, rather than hand it off to an intern. (Handing a potential money-maker, or project that you want to at least break even, to an intern is a good way to lose money.) The techniques and tech have advanced a *long* ways. Cost ranges from inexpensive ($200 for 200-250 page book, grayscale, text only, simple conversion to PDF) to specialized archival preservation quality (white cotton gloves, low-temp, moisture controlled, even exotic light wavelengths for oxygen- and normal light-sensitive documents, price gets into five figures plus). This is by my memory of researching and contract negotiations from 7+ years ago. YMMV.

A quick Google Fu session on "book scanning services" indicates that the tech has advanced even further, with a matching drop in prices. Scanning the material in now, without damaging the source, will generate good quality output in a variety of formats.

As you said, economical conversion to e-formats will still determine the final outcome - IF WotC goes forward with this. However, it is not as expensive as most people think. Less so now.

Couple of sample links, for those interested:
Blue Leaf Book Scanning Service | Low Cost Book Scanning

| Book Scanning | Document Imaging and Scanning Service
(their pricing is more in line with what I recall)

Bound Book Scanning
(other pages on this site indicate that they can get pretty high-res, 300+dpi. far exceeds what I recall.)

I think the real determining factor for success/failure will be in presentation & features. Along the lines of, if I can't add my own notes to it, why bother?


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## merelycompetent (Aug 7, 2011)

Umbran said:


> It doesn't mean anything concrete, no.  But it does mean the issue is on the radar.  The very fact that they are considering something is more than many expected from them.





Very true. PDFs (or equivalent) that I can add my own notes to and backup to my emergency site, priced at $5-7 a pop? I'd buy the 1E DMG to test it out. If it worked as expected and product quality was legible, I'd drop a couple hundred $ that weekend for legit ebooks. Even in this economy. IOW, by price estimates, I alone would cover the cost of multiple hardback scans & edits.

Knowing my gaming group, I'd have company in my purchasing.

Still taking a wait and see approach.


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## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

merelycompetent said:


> I have *some*, now outdated (7-8 years ago) semi-pro knowledge of this due to my day job. Typically, businesses will contract the scanning out to pro shops, rather than hand it off to an intern. (Handing a potential money-maker, or project that you want to at least break even, to an intern is a good way to lose money.)




My recollection (which may be faulty, I admit) is that WotC specifically talked about doing the scanning in-house when they were offering the pdfs before.  Maybe they'll do things differently, maybe not.

Which is neither here nor there - my point was that they'd probably not use hobbyist methods.


----------



## cyderak (Aug 7, 2011)

Umbran said:


> That's nice.  The real (rhetorical question) is why you decided to rain on other people's parade.
> 
> While everyone has a right to an opinion, with that right comes the responsibility to find the right time and place to express it.  This above comes across as threadcrapping.




Relax there chief..........I was just expressing my opinion.  

Not out to start another edition war,  those things are annoying.  Over-educated boxing matches.

I have my RPG preferences (Pathfinder) ........and you have yours.

I won't get into it anymore than that.

My question would be,  whats the coastal wizards up to by re-releasing older editions?   

Is it a  "HA....We have 4 total editions of RPG for anyone to compete against"  type of thing?

Just curious.



Threadcrapping........thats a new one.....


----------



## Stormonu (Aug 7, 2011)

Kamikaze Midget said:


> Renting older edition stuff is narmed.




I took it more to mean "we're going to put these books on a sale price of $1 each, and offer that deal for a year.  Next year, we'll scan and make these block of books available for $1."  I took it you would still keep the PDF, but which ones would be available would be rotated about on a yearly basis.

Of course, I could be wrong, but I reserve the right to give them the benefit of the doubt.

---------------

On another note, I don't know if anyone else noticed, but a lot of the things WotC was proffering - Paizo is already doing.  It was if ... they felt threatened ...


----------



## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

cyderak said:


> Relax there chief..........I was just expressing my opinion.




Be aware, in general, we ask you not to respond to moderation in-thread.  If you have a question, or wish to have the mod understand where you were coming from, do it in e-mail or PM, please.




> Threadcrapping........thats a new one.....




The Urban Dictionary recognizes the term, so it isn't all that new.


----------



## Argyle King (Aug 7, 2011)

Could somebody please clarify how the subscription to older books thing is supposed to work?

Is it akin to 'renting' the older books by paying an additional fee on top of your monthly DDi fee?


If so, that takes an idea that I thought sounded awesome (being able to have access to the old material) , and instead turns it into something which is not appealing at all.


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## Stormonu (Aug 7, 2011)

> 10:57 Q: For next August’s setting, any hints and when will it be  announced? A: It’s not Dragonlance. Well, it does have dragons. Tease:  “It’s not just a setting, but it’s a way to play. Something that D&D  hasn’t tried before.” “Twist” is a good word (James)




Hmmm...Council of Wyrms, perhaps?


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 7, 2011)

Johnny3D3D said:


> Could somebody please clarify how the subscription to older books thing is supposed to work?
> 
> Is it akin to 'renting' the older books by paying an additional fee on top of your monthly DDi fee?
> 
> ...



I hope they don't do that. I'd like to buy some new prints of 1e and 2e, but have no interest to ddi subscription. As a general rule i dont do online subscriptions.


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## Agamon (Aug 7, 2011)

Stormonu said:


> Hmmm...Council of Wyrms, perhaps?




My first thought, too.  Except that D&D has done that before....


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## Stormonu (Aug 7, 2011)

Agamon said:


> My first thought, too.  Except that D&D has done that before....




I'm crossing my fingers that when they say "D&D", they mean 4E (specifically).


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## Agamon (Aug 7, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> I hope they don't do that. I'd like to buy some new prints of 1e and 2e, but have no interest to ddi subscription. As a general rule i dont do online subscriptions.




I, on the other hand, think it's a great idea.  Buy a bunch of older books that I may or may not use, or have access to _all_ of them for a fee?

And while it'd obviously be above and beyond the DDI subscription, I'm guessing it wouldn't require it (why would you need access to 4e stuff if you're getting access to the older stuff?)


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 7, 2011)

Agamon said:


> I, on the other hand, think it's a great idea.  Buy a bunch of older books that I may or may not use, or have access to _all_ of them for a fee?
> 
> And while it'd obviously be above and beyond the DDI subscription, I'm guessing it wouldn't require it (why would you need access to 4e stuff if you're getting access to the older stuff?)




This just doesn't appeal to me. I dont like being locked into a monthly fee if I want access to the books. Online fees in general I don't go for.


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## Agamon (Aug 7, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> This just doesn't appeal to me. I dont like being locked into a monthly fee if I want access to the books. Online fees in general I don't go for.




Understandable.  Just stating my own opinion, while still allowing you yours.  I know this is the internet, and should have gotten all snarky and said you are wrong.  My apologies.


----------



## Bedrockgames (Aug 7, 2011)

Agamon said:


> Understandable.  Just stating my own opinion, while still allowing you yours.  I know this is the internet, and should have gotten all snarky and said you are wrong.  My apologies.




Yes, Your politeness and lack of snark is not just a dissapointment for me personally but for all posters on EN world. 


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## OnlineDM (Aug 7, 2011)

Stormonu said:


> Hmmm...Council of Wyrms, perhaps?




That's my guess, too, after reading this post from Greyhawkery. I didn't know anything about Council of Wyrms before reading that post and NewbieDM's write-up of the original product (I'm still pretty new to RPGs), but the description fits.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 7, 2011)

This has turned out looking very much like a "business practices" thread, so I'm moving it to the RPG Industry forum.


----------



## Sonny (Aug 7, 2011)

Mark CMG said:


> THAT is the big news from that seminar.  We'll see what comes of it.  Oh, and maybe the "open playtest" model they are thinking of adopting.




From the context of the seminar, I'm pretty sure they were talking about their backlog of novels being sold on kindle, nook, etc... and not actual RPG products.


----------



## OnlineDM (Aug 7, 2011)

To be clear, there were two different electronic book things discussed at the seminar, and one more possibly hinted at.

First, they are releasing their back catalog of novels in e-book format (Kindle, Nook, etc.).

Second, James Wyatt started talking about an "electronic bookshelf" of all of their Eberron content in which customers would pay a subscription fee and get access to everything for a year. That's as far as he got before the other WotC people said, "Um, James, we haven't actually announced that yet." That's as much as we know right now. Is it e-book? PDF? Something else entirely? No clue.

Third, because they said that they're thinking about what they want to do with older edition content, there's speculation (including from me) that this Eberron thing might be a trial balloon for other older edition releases in some kind of subscription format. Details are obviously completely unknown, and I wouldn't expect timing to be any time in the next nine months, either. Just my own speculation based on sitting through the seminar.


----------



## Mournblade94 (Aug 7, 2011)

3catcircus said:


> That boat has sailed - I don't think they'll ever regain those customers.
> 
> I agree - this isn't what the community wants - but again - part of that is probably tied to the fact that they alienated a bunch of people who are now happily playing Pathfinder or previous editions of D&D.




Mike Mearls said something else interesting in the panel...

He said something to effect of--- If you are a fan of D&D you SHOULD be a fan of Wizards.  If there are people that are fans and do not like WOTC we are doing something wrong---

I agree with this.  I was a very big fan of WOTC.  Then I lost trust in them.  However, I would like to trust them AGAIN.  I would not stop playing PATHFINDER at this point, but I would willingly give WOTC another shot at getting a portion of my gaming budget (PAizo gets about $200 a month on average at this point).

I occasionally play in 4e games with friends from my game store, but I don't buy DDI or any of the books.  I just use other peoples' books.  If WOTC regained trust, than maybe I would be willing to subscribe to DDI, or buy the new book with character information I want.

The ship has sailed on full blown 'I must have all the books to cover everything so I can run a game," but if they regained trust I would be willing to at least purchase something I would use for my character that I play.


----------



## renau1g (Aug 7, 2011)

Does Paizo put out $200 in material/month? 

I'm thinking they'll probably be available maybe as part of DDI, perhaps as a sweetener to get people who haven't adopted 4e to sign-up and they can say to Hasbro, look, we increased membership X%.


----------



## Mournblade94 (Aug 7, 2011)

renau1g said:


> Does Paizo put out $200 in material/month?
> 
> I'm thinking they'll probably be available maybe as part of DDI, perhaps as a sweetener to get people who haven't adopted 4e to sign-up and they can say to Hasbro, look, we increased membership X%.




That's me catching up on old paizo stuff over the course of this year.  If you count the various gamemastery stuff I buy plus their source material, that is a pretty honest average.

When I am caught up on the older AP's and the Campaign supplements that number will slow down.  To be fair I am also counting the traveller supplements I buy from their online store.  Most of my purchases happen in the game store.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 8, 2011)

Johnny3D3D said:


> Could somebody please clarify how the subscription to older books thing is supposed to work?




I don't think anyone outside of WotC knows that yet.  And perhaps nobody within WotC either - they could well still be researching options.


----------



## GreyLord (Aug 8, 2011)

I really should read the rest of the posts before posting in the topic, but figured I could add some speculation information.

WotC is looking at the ebook format, with specifics in regards to the Kindle and Nook.  There are three different formats each for each device.  This COULD include older editions, inclusive of OD&D, AD&D 1e, BECM, and AD&D 2e.  No idea if 3e/3.5 would be on the tableau at this point.

Or, they could offer bundles with a central theme (perhaps such as Eberron) on an electronic subscription basis, where you get access to the entire thing for a set time period.

Other ideas are up there as well.  PROBABLY NOT the PDF for sale format that was up previously...80% certain not that...but you can never tell.

I suppose I should read the rest of the thread now.

Just my own thoughts on what is occurring with the commentary towards older editions.

edit:  And now that I did read the rest of the thread, looks like some have already drawn some logical conclusions like what I described above.


----------



## I'm A Banana (Aug 8, 2011)

> I took it more to mean "we're going to put these books on a sale price of $1 each, and offer that deal for a year. Next year, we'll scan and make these block of books available for $1." I took it you would still keep the PDF, but which ones would be available would be rotated about on a yearly basis.




That wouldn't be SO bad, though I don't quite get why they wouldn't just offer everything for $1 each right at the outset. Still, that's likely OK.



> Second, James Wyatt started talking about an "electronic bookshelf" of all of their Eberron content in which customers would pay a subscription fee and get access to everything for a year. That's as far as he got before the other WotC people said, "Um, James, we haven't actually announced that yet." That's as much as we know right now. Is it e-book? PDF? Something else entirely? No clue.




That's the narmed thing. If Wyatt's idea of paying a subscription fee to get access to the online library is what they eventually go with, that will make me a grumpy panda, since, in that case, e-bay, Noble Knight, self-scanning, and, for many folks, piracy, will all be much easier, much cheaper, much more convenient, and much closer to what they actually want.

Man, I don't *want* to keep hating on James Wyatt, but he keeps saying these awful, awful things...


----------



## TarionzCousin (Aug 8, 2011)

> Tease: “It’s not just a setting, but it’s a way to play. Something that D&D hasn’t tried before.” “Twist” is a good word (James)



They have finally figured out how to psionically transmit data directly into subscribers' brains.


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 8, 2011)

Agamon said:


> So it's a subscription to access an array of campaign material/sourcebooks?  Interesting.



Not really - I just completely _lost_ interest. 

The Auld Grump


----------



## Dannager (Aug 8, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> This just doesn't appeal to me. I dont like being locked into a monthly fee if I want access to the books. Online fees in general I don't go for.




I hear this a lot (especially from gamers) but I think this attitude towards subscription-based services is going to have to die out. I'm willing to bet that, slowly but surely, people are going to start realizing two things:

1. Subscription services have become reliable and long-lived enough that they are functionally (if not financially) indistinguishable from owning whatever it is you're "renting".

2. Subscription services are typically (_much_) more cost-effective than purchasing whatever it is that they offer piecemeal, especially subscription services that regularly add new material, increasing their value on an ongoing basis.

The reality is that when people ask themselves "Is my life going to be more enjoyable as a subscriber?" the answer is more and more frequently going to be "Yes," whether it's a subscription to Netflix, D&D Insider, Spotify, or something that hasn't been invented yet.


----------



## Dice4Hire (Aug 8, 2011)

[MENTION=73683]Dannager[/MENTION]

Another important point is, is there another option? Now there is with D&D.

But there might not be in the future.


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 8, 2011)

Dannager said:


> I hear this a lot (especially from gamers) but I think this attitude towards subscription-based services is going to have to die out. I'm willing to bet that, slowly but surely, people are going to start realizing two things:
> 
> 1. Subscription services have become reliable and long-lived enough that they are functionally (if not financially) indistinguishable
> 2. Subscription services are typically (_much_) more cost-effective than purchasing whatever it is that
> ...




I think its simply a preference thing. You might enjoy online subscription services, but many people don't and for a variety of reasons. Personally o dont see much value in something like ddi or wow. 

All i need is some core book and i am good.


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## Dannager (Aug 8, 2011)

Dice4Hire said:


> @Dannager
> 
> Another important point is, is there another option? Now there is with D&D.
> 
> But there might not be in the future.




Another option than what?


----------



## Dykstrav (Aug 8, 2011)

Dannager said:


> I hear this a lot (especially from gamers) but I think this attitude towards subscription-based services is going to have to die out. I'm willing to bet that, slowly but surely, people are going to start realizing two things:
> 
> 1. Subscription services have become reliable and long-lived enough that they are functionally (if not financially) indistinguishable from owning whatever it is you're "renting".
> 
> ...




Subscription services are great for certain things, but not for others. To me, the entire purpose of renting content is so that I can check it out less expensively than purchasing it outright.

I have a Netflix account so that I can watch something that I'm only going to watch once, or perhaps someone recommends to me--stuff like the new _Star Trek _movie, _Zombie Strippers_, something like that. I'd rather pay $8.00 to find out that those movies are terrible than pay approximately $20 to purchase a physical copy. When you talk about good movies that I want to watch repeatedly--_Black Hawk Down_, _the Fountain_, various Hitchcock classics--I purchase a copy. The subscription model, in this case, is a method for me to vet quality at a reasonable price.

In the case of Netflix, it's only a better value than Redbox when you watch at least eight movies a month (since Redbox is $1.00 per rental). Furthermore, it's only a comparative value if you go to the theatre at least once per month (assuming that movie tickets are still around $10 in your neck of the woods), or if you purchase more than one movie every two months at $20 for your format of choice (DVD/Bluray/download/whatever).

Maybe we have a difference of opinion there, but I don't see value in content that I'm never going to use. "Value" is a relative concept. 

Even if a Dungeons & Dragons Insider account provided a thousand pages of content every month, I'd never use that much material. Every time new content gets posted, are you able to use every single element in a game that you're currently involved in?

Unfortunately, the reality at the moment for people that ask themselves "Is my life going to be  more enjoyable as a subscriber?" The answer is not always "yes." Maybe, _maybe_ in the future, once different subscription methods and services have matured. Definitely not at the moment.

To me, it's just not worth it to get access to content that I may or may not be able to use and a character builder that doesn't let me add my own content or even set the layout. I'm just not impressed with _the content_ and _its value_, regardless of the delivery method. It seems that people are becoming more fixated on the medium instead of the content.


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## Dannager (Aug 8, 2011)

Dykstrav said:


> Even if a Dungeons & Dragons Insider account provided a thousand pages of content every month, I'd never use that much material. Every time new content gets posted, are you able to use every single element in a game that you're currently involved in?




No, but that doesn't mean that less content wouldn't affect my games. If they publish a hundred pages of material per month, then sure, I can probably only use 10 in my own games. But having access to the full hundred means I get a wider variety of material to pick and choose from, and the material that I can't directly use still gets a read-through and becomes inspiration for future adventures or characters. If they only published 10 pages per month and I used all 10 pages every month, I wouldn't have a whole lot of wiggle room as far as what to include in my games.


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 8, 2011)

It's also worth noting there is a big difference between rpgs and movies. Subscription service for dvds is a much more workable model imo. When netflicks came out, it made sense to me and filled a clear need. As someone who rented a lot of movies i liked the idea and signed up. But i have never felt any need for rpg subscription service. Dont like thd idea of a constantly updating database of material--- just too much influx for my taste. Do most of my gaming away from computers and tablets. And i really prefer to by the physical game book if its s game i have any plan to run regularly (i buy pdfs to check out a game). 

That said i spend a lot of time online (both for my business and just personally--its how i get most of my news, etc). But gaming isnt something that requires tech. I use a word processor for some prep but actually find most tech to be less effective than a classic binder for prep and organization.


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## Agamon (Aug 8, 2011)

To each their own, of course.  I'm just happy that they're trying to find ways to get the material available again, in a way that their anti-piracy lawyers find acceptable.  

I'd be just as happy with purchasable pdfs, but if they wanted to do that, they wouldn't have stopped doing it in the first place.  But then, again, that's e-format, too.  I just think that anyone thinking WotC is going to be re-releasing dead tree format of anything pre-4e is in for some disappointment.


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## thedungeondelver (Aug 8, 2011)

When John Bonham passed away, *ATLANTIC* didn't discontinue all *Led Zeppelin* albums.  When Robert Plant did solo work, they didn't.  When Jimmy Page does solo work, they don't.

In fact, sales of one helps drive the other.

I hope *WIZARDS OF THE COAST* finally recognize this and are driving towards making actual print books for previous editions again, even if it's only "core" material.  I realize if you were to count up one of every supplemental this or complete fighters the other you could fill up a warehouse just having one of each from 1974 to 2007, rather like you could have a whole lot of singles and so forth from a given band - but you keep the core stuff (albums) in print, it works that way.


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## Orius (Aug 8, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> I hope *WIZARDS OF THE COAST* finally recognize this and are driving towards making actual print books for previous editions again, even if it's only "core" material.




I don't know if they'll actually reprint the older material, electronic formats are probably more likely.

I would expect physical reprints to be one of two things: limited print runs of the older core books and selected products for which there is a lot of demand or print on demand for stuff from the classic library for collectors or enthusiasts.


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## falcarrion (Aug 8, 2011)

I would perfer it in a pdf format. Then I could put it out on my cloud storage for easy excess. Ebook format thats ok but limited by the type of ebook format and type of electronic device I can use it on. such as no Sony ebook app for the ipad. If I use a friends laptop and he doesn't have the program I can't use it. 
If they go the rent format. I will not go that route. If I buy game products I want to own it not rent it. Not everywhere I go has internet connection.
If I'm on a road trip and want to read a pdf on my ipad no problem. If it is rent through DDI then I can't.
As far as hard copies, I have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and some of 4th. There is nothing wrong with print form. but I want it in electronic version that I can read anywhere I want.


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## ShinHakkaider (Aug 8, 2011)

I have a Netflix account. 

There are good things about having a Netflix account with streaming video. I get to checkout movies and shows that I normally would not have put on my physical disc queue. For instance, yesterday I finally saw Takashi Miike's 13 ASSASSINS after missing it 3 times here in NYC theatrically. I enjoyed the hell out it (although now that I hear that there's a longer cut I'll have to hunt that down). I also, after multiple recommendations started watching episodes of PARTY DOWN which I'm also enjoying. I've also been enjoying FULL METAL ALCHEMIST: BROTHERHOOD. As such I'll probably be buying copies of 13 ASSASSINS and FMA: BROTHERHOOD on DVD or BD in the near future.

There are also bad things about Netflix streaming. I wanted to re watch Sparticus about a month ago but Netflix only had half the episodes up. Before that they'd pulled the entire series and only had the prequel series up. I wanted to finish watching the first season of DEXTER but they'd pulled that. There was a day last week where Verizon (my DSL provider) was working in the neighborhood and my DSL connection was borked for about 2 hours so no Netflix access for me. 

What I'm saying that the digital subscription thing has it's upsides and downsides, but in the end I like being able to access content when I WANT TO and not be at the whim of my broadband connection or some squabble between networks/studios and Netflix. 

If I stop paying for a service, I stop receiving service. That makes sense. But if I pay for a physical or digital product that sits on my shelf or on my HD (backed up on several HD's. HD space IS cheaper than real space. At least here in NYC it is...) I can access it as much as I want simply by pulling it off my shelf or pulling it up on my MacBook Pro, MacPro or iPad. 

For some things a digital service is alright. I would never do a digital subscription for music but for movies I obviously do. For access to books for my RPG's though? HELL NO. If I'm spending money for an RPG or RPG related material I WANT IT. If the subscription service allows you to download the material then that's different, but read only access is a deal breaker.


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## ShinHakkaider (Aug 8, 2011)

Bedrockgames said:


> I use a word processor for some prep but actually find most tech to be less effective than a classic binder for prep and organization.




See and I find just the opposite. With my iPad I'm not limited to prepping my game when I have my binder handy. I can prep my game on my lunch break or on my train ride home. Simply BECAUSE I have all my books handy and I can write notes or cut and paste statblocks and modify them in Pages. For the last few months I've been running my Pathfinder Game almost exclusively from my iPad. Even when I have an idea and I'm nowhere near my tablet or books I whip out my phone and record my idea and then send the recording to myself via email as a reminder. 

Yes you dont need tech to run or prep for your games. But if you have it, it's HELLA handy.


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 8, 2011)

ShinHakkaider said:


> See and I find just the opposite. With my iPad I'm not limited to prepping my game when I have my binder handy. I can prep my game on my lunch break or on my train ride home. Simply BECAUSE I have all my books handy and I can write notes or cut and paste statblocks and modify them in Pages. For the last few months I've been running my Pathfinder Game almost exclusively from my iPad. Even when I have an idea and I'm nowhere near my tablet or books I whip out my phone and record my idea and then send the recording to myself via email as a reminder.
> 
> Yes you dont need tech to run or prep for your games. But if you have it, it's HELLA handy.




I dont disagree. I use my i phone and my laptop for prep all the time. Internets great for research. I am pretty far from being a technophobe. But at the end of the day i prefer not to use software to manage my prep (i use a word processor but i dont like character generators or gm software mostly because i find them all way too restrictive). When i am at the table i have my binder and i find tech distracting for all involved.


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## Umbran (Aug 8, 2011)

Several of the above posts demonstrate (but don't "prove") something I suspect is true:  with respect to formats, the market is nowhere near unified.  To make everyone happy, they need to provide a whole stack of formats, and producing and maintaining such can be a hefty overhead for the business.

Thus, expect them to make a choice, and that a bunch of us will not be pleased with their choice.


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## Bedrockgames (Aug 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Several of the above posts demonstrate (but don't "prove") something I suspect is true:  with respect to formats, the market is nowhere near unified.  To make everyone happy, they need to provide a whole stack of formats, and producing and maintaining such can be a hefty overhead for the business.
> 
> Thus, expect them to make a choice, and that a bunch of us will not be pleased with their choice.




I think this is the golden answer. It is why dismissing online delivery is just as misguided as insisting it is the one true way. A company that can, should provide all delivery options its customers. Some will want hard books, some will want subscription services, some will want online subscription, etc. 

You also make a good point about the overhead. This is a tiny industry. When the biggest player in the game (at least up till this point as I know we are debating who is top dog) took years to get real online tools and support, I think that is a good indication that its a tall order for many other companies. 

For my own company I can say anything beyond PDF and print books (with the exception of things like kindle formatting) is beyond our means and will be beyond them for the near future. Hiring programmers is something we simply can't do. There are lots of things we would love to do, but we have to be realistic.


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## Agamon (Aug 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Several of the above posts demonstrate (but don't "prove") something I suspect is true:  with respect to formats, the market is nowhere near unified.  To make everyone happy, they need to provide a whole stack of formats, and producing and maintaining such can be a hefty overhead for the business.
> 
> Thus, expect them to make a choice, and that a bunch of us will not be pleased with their choice.




Exactly.  This has been my fundamental point, as well.  They've pulled the pdfs and have an online distribution set up already with DDI.  Even those that don't like it must see that it is what makes the most sense.


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## FreeXenon (Aug 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Several of the above posts demonstrate (but don't "prove") something I suspect is true:  with respect to formats, the market is nowhere near unified.  To make everyone happy, they need to provide a whole stack of formats, and producing and maintaining such can be a hefty overhead for the business.
> 
> Thus, expect them to make a choice, and that a bunch of us will not be pleased with their choice.




Could someone give Umbran some XP for me. 

I think you have a great point here... unless they can find a service that can do format conversions on the fly.


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## I'm A Banana (Aug 8, 2011)

> For some things a digital service is alright. I would never do a digital subscription for music but for movies I obviously do. For access to books for my RPG's though? HELL NO. If I'm spending money for an RPG or RPG related material I WANT IT. If the subscription service allows you to download the material then that's different, but read only access is a deal breaker.




This describes my view. For me, subscription services are largely fine for things I can get cheaper that way (Netflix, though it's always questionable), or things that continually produce new content (DDI or Pathfinder or my dead tree NatGeo subscription -- and even DDI only wins me over because I don't consider it very "valuable," so I don't care too much of I loose it). 

For unchanging content that I need to be able to use repeatedly (like music or RPG books), a subscription model is useless for me. I need to be able to reference these things in the future, to call them up at-will, and to enjoy them at my leisure, not just when I'm financially stable enough and my internet connection isn't down. 

An iTunes or Steam (or Pathfinder) model would sell me. 99 cents for a pdf or a game? I'm in, just as I'm in for 99 cents for an MP3. Even up to probably $5 for big 300 page things, not a problem. Not for a copy-protected gimp of a file that I can only use on certain pre-approved devices, but for a real file to do with as I please, aside from breaking laws. 

Because unlike a movie or 4e material, I would plan to use this more than once.


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## Agamon (Aug 8, 2011)

I'm trying to figure out what I can do with an RPG book besides read/reference it....


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## Umbran (Aug 8, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> When John Bonham passed away, *ATLANTIC* didn't discontinue all *Led Zeppelin* albums.  When Robert Plant did solo work, they didn't.  When Jimmy Page does solo work, they don't.
> 
> In fact, sales of one helps drive the other.




Yes, but that's a horrible analogy.  Listening to Led Zepplin doesn't require nearly the same level of coordination, devotion of person-hours, or expense as playing a typical RPG.  A person can have many, many more active albums of music in their lives than they can active RPGs.


----------



## Dark Mistress (Aug 8, 2011)

FreeXenon said:


> Could someone give Umbran some XP for me.
> 
> I think you have a great point here... unless they can find a service that can do format conversions on the fly.




XPed.


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## TheYeti1775 (Aug 8, 2011)

thedungeondelver said:


> They need to not do "Hollywood Records reissues" though; back in the early 90s when Hollywood Records secured the *QUEEN* back-catalog and started re-releasing it they clogged up the CDs with 12" remix this and special guest artist version that.  Granted, I can press SKIP TRACK but that still bugs me.
> 
> On the other hand, if they do do that, but tell us up-front, and the "extra stuff" (e.g., "here's Nosnra for 4e") is in removable form, e.g., a "conversion booklet" that I can set aside, that's fine.
> 
> I just don't wanna buy a copy of say, *I2 TOMB OF THE LIZARD KING* and find out that it's twice as thick and the map is "reimagined" for 4ENCOUNTERS! or any garbage like that - as long as they say so up front if they're going to do that...



[/QUOTE]
Actually I wouldn't mind them doing that.  Remember Reverse Engineering works both ways.  How many of the old module sales might be driven by such conversion entries.  If they have to appeal to the greatest amount possible than even a purist would recognize it as just bonus material to the original product. Your original is still there just with the notes for someone that wants the newest edition mind ot it.



Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The older material will probably just be rented through DDI.





Johnny3D3D said:


> So...  the plan is to allow someone to 'rent' the old material via DDi?
> 
> Meaning I would first need a DDi account and then pay extra to access the old material for a limited time?



Nor would I. 
I don't get DDI now much like I don't subscribe here. 
When I purchase something I want it as a whole, weather it's a PDF or a hardcopy. 
Now if they were requiring a DDI Subscription to access a storefront that allowed the purchase of a PDF or Print On Demand, that I could understand and get behind.



Deuce Traveler said:


> DO NOT WANT!
> 
> But if I can purchase older RPG boxed sets, books, and modules from them in either pdf or physical form I will happily be a customer.



Same here.




Agamon said:


> I, on the other hand, think it's a great idea.  Buy a bunch of older books that I may or may not use, or have access to _all_ of them for a fee?
> 
> And while it'd obviously be above and beyond the DDI subscription, I'm guessing it wouldn't require it (why would you need access to 4e stuff if you're getting access to the older stuff?)



Because the business model is still push as much towards the current edition as possible even when selling the prior edition stuff.



Dannager said:


> I hear this a lot (especially from gamers) but I think this attitude towards subscription-based services is going to have to die out. I'm willing to bet that, slowly but surely, people are going to start realizing two things:
> 
> 1. Subscription services have become reliable and long-lived enough that they are functionally (if not financially) indistinguishable from owning whatever it is you're "renting".
> 
> ...



You have sound points but I counteract it with this:
When you subscribe you expect regular updates with the purchase.
Hence, Enworld's giveaways etc, or DDI Updates.
Are they going to seriousily update a prior edition of D&D?  I think we can all agree that isn't going to happen.


Dream:
They have hardcovers available, this could even be in collector sets.
(i.e. The Core PHB/DMG/MMI as a single book.  Groups of modules as single hardcovers. etc.)
Includes it's own Character Builder, etc.  (Like I said before that would gurantee my own subscription.)

Hope for at least:
PDF's with Print on Demand Options for all older material.

Acceptable:
Purchases have to be made behind DDI Subscription.  Their own little Pirate Control.  It's a headache but livable.

Unacceptable:
Subscribe to use.
If that's the case, I'll just stick to my bad scans and material already on the shelf in my home.

-----------------------------------------
Other:
Someone mentioned how the WotC folks couldn't understand how a D&D Fan couldn't also have to be a WotC Fan.
It's easy to surmise.
The game itself never left us.  Yes in our eyes, WotC did save D&D from being a footnote on the logs of history.
But that doesn't mean since it's 'saving' that WotC didn't morph into something we didn't like.
I'm very much a D&D fan.  Just the direction they(WotC) took in recent years, had me parting ways and joining ranks of 'grognards'.  I didn't even go with the Pathfinger, I just simply looked and said I have enough to last me and groups to play with that were of a similar vein.
It's really that simple.
I was still a WotC customer, buying a PDF here and there.  Even to buying the Star Wars SE along with miniatures for both D&D and Star Wars.
But each of those are now discontinued.
So I ended up joining the ranks of former WotC customers.
All my current purchases are on the secondary markets.

WotC can have me as a fan and customer again the bridge wasn't burned, but it is in a state of disrepair that I don't really feel like driving over.


----------



## Dannager (Aug 8, 2011)

TheYeti1775 said:
			
		

> You have sound points but I counteract it with this:
> When you subscribe you expect regular updates with the purchase.
> Hence, Enworld's giveaways etc, or DDI Updates.
> Are they going to seriousily update a prior edition of D&D?  I think we can all agree that isn't going to happen.




Actually, I was imagining that the subscription service would start out with a certain set of books (the WotC guys are planning on starting with a subscription to just the Eberron stuff) and that online library of previous edition books would be expanded over time as content is digitized and approved. So the amount of content available to you via subscription would increase over the length of your subscription, increasing its value on a month-to-month basis.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Aug 8, 2011)

Agamon said:


> I'm trying to figure out what I can do with an RPG book besides read/reference it....



You can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. There's RPG-kabobs, RPG creole, RPG gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried, stir-fried. There's pineapple RPG, lemon RPG, coconut RPG, pepper RPG, RPG soup, RPG stew, RPG salad, RPG and potatoes, RPG burger, RPG sandwich.


----------



## Mournblade94 (Aug 8, 2011)

ShinHakkaider said:


> I have a Netflix account.
> 
> 
> If I stop paying for a service, I stop receiving service. That makes sense. But if I pay for a physical or digital product that sits on my shelf or on my HD (backed up on several HD's. HD space IS cheaper than real space. At least here in NYC it is...) I can access it as much as I want simply by pulling it off my shelf or pulling it up on my MacBook Pro, MacPro or iPad.
> ...




Right I have XBOX live.  I BOUGHT (Not rented) BIG BANG THEORY.  Payed $27.00.  CBS pulled the licensing and they could no longer have BIG BANG THEORY on XBOX LIVE.  I LOST all the content i payed for for 6 months.

In fairness I have access to it now.  But I no longer trust buying things off of these sites, and renting the space.  I treat DDI in the same light.  I have NETFLIX, and I do not expect to own anything from it.  But I did not have to go buy the movies I am streaming either.  

Renting game material on DDI is not something I am willing to do.


----------



## Mournblade94 (Aug 8, 2011)

Agamon said:


> Exactly.  This has been my fundamental point, as well.  They've pulled the pdfs and have an online distribution set up already with DDI.  Even those that don't like it must see that it is what makes the most sense.




But if the situation is like Mike Mearls says, and they are trying to get some of the grognards back (which I do beleive they are), they might see that DDI is not the way to go.  

My gaming dollars will not go to DDI.  WOTC does not care about MY gaming dollars alone, but Grognards have pretty serious purchase power.

I am happy to withhold that from a format i do not like.


----------



## IronWolf (Aug 8, 2011)

Dannager said:


> Actually, I was imagining that the subscription service would start out with a certain set of books (the WotC guys are planning on starting with a subscription to just the Eberron stuff) and that online library of previous edition books would be expanded over time as content is digitized and approved. So the amount of content available to you via subscription would increase over the length of your subscription, increasing its value on a month-to-month basis.




The issue is that some of us want to purchase it and know we will have access to it in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, etc. We do not have that guarantee with a subscription model. Either they could change their mind, they could decide DDI isn't the way to go or WotC could be sold and the new owner does not want to support that means of access.

As for more content being available, that doesn't matter for many. Say they start with Eberron and then add Forgotten Realms. If I am playing or running an Eberron campaign the addition of FR does little to add value to the sub for me.

As Umbran said earlier, the customers are far from unified on means of access. Neither side is wrong and it is cool that we have a choice - both groups have a means of access that likely fits their needs.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 8, 2011)

Mournblade94 said:


> But if the situation is like Mike Mearls says, and they are trying to get some of the grognards back (which I do beleive they are), they might see that DDI is not the way to go.




In the smaller end of business, there's usually hard choices to be made.  Small runs in several formats cut into profits on all of them - consolidating into one format tends to increase profits.



> My gaming dollars will not go to DDI.  WOTC does not care about MY gaming dollars alone, but Grognards have pretty serious purchase power.




Yes, but "Grognard" does not clearly equate to "does not like subscription presentation".


----------



## Mournblade94 (Aug 8, 2011)

Umbran said:


> Yes, but "Grognard" does not clearly equate to "does not like subscription presentation".




Agreed.  I like subscription models for netflix and Xbox live.  I personally don't like it for DDI, but I do not speak for anyone but myself.  I suspect (with no evidence other than anecdotal) that a large portion of that market feels similar to me.


----------



## dagger (Aug 8, 2011)

Mournblade94 said:


> Agreed.  I like subscription models for netflix and Xbox live.  I personally don't like it for DDI, but I do not speak for anyone but myself.  I suspect (with no evidence other than anecdotal) that a large portion of that market feels similar to me.




I would buy 1e/2e PRINT products....nothing else interests me. I already have all the pdfs of 1e/2e anyway and I don't use them. I still would rather have actual new books instead of having to ebay/used book store scavenge hunts.


----------



## thedungeondelver (Aug 8, 2011)

> Actually I wouldn't mind them doing that.  Remember Reverse Engineering works both ways.  How many of the old module sales might be driven by such conversion entries.  If they have to appeal to the greatest amount possible than even a purist would recognize it as just bonus material to the original product. Your original is still there just with the notes for someone that wants the newest edition mind ot it.





The godawful job done on the *T1 VILLAGE OF HOMMLET* tells me they'd botch any attempt to do that without just wrecking  up.

I mean, holy balls, they turned the moathouse dungeon into this 20' wide arena for crying out loud.  Had the people responsible ever actually _seen_ the original module?

No - if they reprint older editions and go beyond core material (and it's more than likely they're not; they're rather leaning towards renting it via DDI which I _won't_ do), I'd hate to see "conversion" crap stuck in the middle.


----------



## Voadam (Aug 9, 2011)

Agamon said:


> Exactly.  This has been my fundamental point, as well.  They've pulled the pdfs and have an online distribution set up already with DDI.  Even those that don't like it must see that it is what makes the most sense.




Nonsense. 

They made a choice to pull all pdfs and stick to 4e print stuff and DDI.

What makes the most sense is highly debatable.

I think it would have made more sense to keep selling old edition pdfs alongside the 4e stuff and DDI. I know I bought a ton of 1e and 2e and basic D&D pdfs when I was only playing and running 3e games and it fed into our 3e games.

When they pulled the pdfs it did not drive me to 4e and DDI. It just made me annoyed at WotC and I spent my monthly gaming budget money on other companies' pdfs instead of getting the five or so WotC pdfs I had been getting each month.

The piracy justifications they gave for why they were pulling the existing pdfs were nonsense. The best answer anyone could give me in speculation threads on the internet was that even though all the work making the pdfs was done, there was a vast library of pdfs that were some of the most popular ones ever sold, other companies handled the sales, and all WotC had to do was take in the monthly profit checks, the profit rolling in wasn't on a scale to be significant to them and they didn't even want to waste resources accounting for the money they got from those sales.

It might have made the most sense for them to cut off that income stream and access for their customers to be able to buy such support material for their games, but that is highly debatable.


----------



## Agamon (Aug 9, 2011)

Voadam said:


> The piracy justifications they gave for why they were pulling the existing pdfs were nonsense. The best answer anyone could give me in speculation threads on the internet was that even though all the work making the pdfs was done, there was a vast library of pdfs that were some of the most popular ones ever sold, other companies handled the sales, and all WotC had to do was take in the monthly profit checks, the profit rolling in wasn't on a scale to be significant to them and they didn't even want to waste resources accounting for the money they got from those sales.
> 
> It might have made the most sense for them to cut off that income stream and access for their customers to be able to buy such support material for their games, but that is highly debatable.




Your conjecture may or may not be accurate, but we've only got what we were told.  And whether or not it makes the most sense to you or me wasn't the point.


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Aug 9, 2011)

Voadam said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> They made a choice to pull all pdfs and stick to 4e print stuff and DDI.
> 
> ...




You might have a point, if the stream of income dwindled down to a trickle where it wasn't supporting the accounting cost alone, than I would understand why they cut sales.  The Piracy excuse never really flew with me anyways.  If anything I would wager Piracy increased after the pulling of the sales.

I do hope the WotC folks are looking on this thread at least.
We are telling them how to get $$ out of our wallets into their accounts and what we won't even bat an eyelash to say no to, I hope they take it to heart.

Us grognards are just old fuddy duddies that are set in our ways. <shakes cane>
I would love to be a customer, just provide something I want to purchase.

Personally I'm not into the subscribing for a game method.
Yes I have XBOX Live, I pay $100/yr for a family account so I can have multiples for my son and I plus two guest ones for his friends when they are over.
If you put it behind DDI Subscription to purchase the PDF's or have a Print on Demand option.  I could see myself subscribing, I would treat it much like my Costco membership.  But if you put it behind the DDI for limited online viewing only.  Well, than I won't even bother.

Really I bet I'm like many in a prime customer buying power range for WotC to consider.
mid-thirties with a son who is right at the starting age i was when I started playing, with lots of disposable income.
Right now in my Amazon Cart I have $200 of gaming stuff in it.  The only reason I haven't clicked the order button yet is the card I use for Amazon is at home and I'm at work.  Much of it is discontinued TSR/WotC stuff I found from 3rd Party sellers.


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## BigWeather (Aug 10, 2011)

I too would happily purchase (unmodified) re-prints, PDFs, or PoDs of old (pre-4e) material.  There is no way, however, that I'd purchase rights to online-only viewing, whether time limited or not.


----------



## Dragon Snack (Aug 10, 2011)

To add more fuel to the fire, yesterdays Wizards Event Reporter updates include, emphasis mine...


> New Dungeon & Dragons formats
> ◦D&D RPG _*(Any Edition)*_
> ◦D&D Living Forgotten Realms
> ◦D&D Gamma World RPG
> ◦D&D Board Game



Wizards Play Network Official Home Page

This is the software used to report in store events to WotC (to be fair, it can also be used to report non-store affiliated events as well).  I'll also say that I haven't updated it yet since I'm not at the store, so I don't know exactly what it means.  But given the proximity of the announcement and the software update...

WotC does support in store play, if the WER has been updated to allow other editions of D&D then perhaps printed versions of older editions may not be far behind.  If stores are going to run official events, they will want to monetize them - and the easiest way to do that is to sell books.  Everyone worried about digital rentals may be jumping the gun.

But then again (speaking of jumping the gun), this could also just be a way of testing the waters to see what editions of D&D stores already have running.  Market research directly from the people already running events for them!

Either way, another data point to mull...


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## mudbunny (Aug 10, 2011)

TheYeti1775 said:


> I do hope the WotC folks are looking on this thread at least.
> We are telling them how to get $$ out of our wallets into their accounts and what we won't even bat an eyelash to say no to, I hope they take it to heart.




I have told them about this thread.


----------



## Orius (Aug 10, 2011)

Dragon Snack said:


> WotC does support in store play, if the WER has been updated to allow other editions of D&D then perhaps printed versions of older editions may not be far behind.  If stores are going to run official events, they will want to monetize them - and the easiest way to do that is to sell books.  Everyone worried about digital rentals may be jumping the gun.
> 
> But then again (speaking of jumping the gun), this could also just be a way of testing the waters to see what editions of D&D stores already have running.  Market research directly from the people already running events for them!




Possibly they're taking a page from M:tG here.  I understand there are different rules formats for Magic tournaments, one format only allows the most recent up-to-date cards while there's at least one more that allows cards from older sets and editions.  I don't know the exact terminology here because I'm not a Magic player, but it might be a similar approach.  In this case, they may be allowing for official D&D gaiming events to support either the current 4e rules or older classic rules.


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## Roland55 (Aug 13, 2011)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> I know that blog entry is hard going -- for some reason, he never went back and even ran it through a spellcheck, to say nothing of a more comprehensive clean-up -- but they appear to have given more details:
> 
> The older material will probably just be rented through DDI.




Sigh.  Thanks for the info.  I had hoped for more ... but I'm really not interested in merely 'renting' the old material through DDI.


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## El Mahdi (Aug 13, 2011)

"Renting" books is 100% out.  I can't even imagine they'd be thinking of doing this.  If they are they're absolutely nuts.

Paying a subscription for a magazine, online tools and compendium, virtual table top, etc. - if they had support for older editions, I'm in.

Subscribing for access to books in the first place, that would just piss me off even more.  If they did that, it would no longer be a matter of I won't buy WotC products at all until they return pdf's - it will be I will never buy WotC products again, Ever.

Please WotC, for once listen to your customer base and _don't do this!_


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## Ettin (Aug 14, 2011)

I can't wait to see how dramatic people get over this when some actual details are announced.


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## El Mahdi (Aug 14, 2011)

Ettin said:


> I can't wait to see how dramatic people get over this when some actual details are announced.




That's when things _really_ get going...


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## IronWolf (Aug 14, 2011)

Ettin said:


> I can't wait to see how dramatic people get over this when some actual details are announced.




It is the nature of discussion boards. We like to discuss rumors, things that have actually happened and game systems. It is what we do!


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## RangerWickett (Aug 14, 2011)

Ideologically I see no problem with requiring a subscription to view old materials. From a utilitarian standpoint, though, it would probably be a technical challenge, and not worth the hassle compared to just letting people download the pdfs when they have a subscription, and keep the pdfs when they don't. 

I work at a library. Some vendors do only provide their books in a format of one page at a time, loaded as an image so you can't copy it easily. And they're a totally pain in the ass to use.


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## Umbran (Aug 14, 2011)

El Mahdi said:


> If they did that, it would no longer be a matter of I won't buy WotC products at all until they return pdf's - it will be I will never buy WotC products again, Ever.




I have never understood that sort of thing - I'm sorry, but it sounds a lot like, "You produced strawberry ice cream at some time, so I will never buy your chocolate!"  

Voting with your wallet is a limited communication tool.  If you don't like A, you don't buy A, and if A doesn't sell well, then they know not to do A again.  If you don't buy B, they have no way to connect that with how you didn't like A.  It fails to communicate your dislike, and so is of no service to either of you.

Plus, if you swear off them entirely, well, then they can write you off as customer - your concerns are no longer theirs.  As far as they are concerned, you are no longer part of the market, and your needs, desires, and tastes can now be ignored.

Ultimatums are generally not a great negotiating tactic.


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## El Mahdi (Aug 14, 2011)

Umbran said:


> I have never understood that sort of thing - I'm sorry, but it sounds a lot like, "You produced strawberry ice cream at some time, so I will never buy your chocolate!"
> 
> Voting with your wallet is a limited communication tool. If you don't like A, you don't buy A, and if A doesn't sell well, then they know not to do A again. If you don't buy B, they have no way to connect that with how you didn't like A. It fails to communicate your dislike, and so is of no service to either of you.
> 
> ...




Okay then, what's the alternative?

Near as I can tell, I'm communicating to them two ways: by not buying their products, and by telling them why right here.

Just what kind of reasoning leads a business to decide that what will bring customers back is to rent the books to them (if that's what they're doing).  Think editions have caused a split in the fan base...just wait until there's the disparity of 4E players being able to own their books, but older edition players can only rent...

WotC has gotten massive amounts of feedback, they're seeing firsthand that 3.xE is still a viable market (as well as the previous editions), and clamoring for pdf's hasn't ceased in the least - yet here we are over two years on and it's still the _WotC Knows Best_ show.

So what's the alternative?  What would you do?


----------



## Pilgrim (Aug 14, 2011)

El Mahdi said:


> So what's the alternative?  What would you do?



Kill WotC and take its stuff.


----------



## darjr (Aug 14, 2011)

Pilgrim said:
			
		

> Kill WotC and take its stuff.




alright Pilgrim, I got me some iron rations, my ten foot pole, my sword, spellbook, and a bag of holding. let's go


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## Kobold Boots (Aug 14, 2011)

El Mahdi said:


> Okay then, what's the alternative?
> 
> Near as I can tell, I'm communicating to them two ways: by not buying their products, and by telling them why right here.
> 
> ...




There's no small amount of irony that you're taking this stance, yet have in your signature that "You're with D&D, any edition".

Looking past that, I'd say that your alternative would be to wait and see what they really do, and check it out before taking a stand one way or the other.

Once a stand is necessary, write WoTC customer support directly.  While Internet forums are great places for them to peruse, the problem is that it's too easy to get annoyed and knee jerk a response via a message board.  It becomes a question of who they listen to because there's a tendency for angsty posts to steamroll and modern marketing research will tell you that the vast majority of customers have two settings.

1. What society tells them that they should say when asked what they want.
2. What the customer really wants.

Check out Malcom Gladwell's work at any time and you'll quickly see why a grain of salt needs to go into forum feedback.  (One of the best examples was coffee.. most will say they want a hearty roast.  Most will when left to their own devices order creamy weak)

2c
KB


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## El Mahdi (Aug 14, 2011)

Kobold Boots said:


> There's no small amount of irony that you're taking this stance, yet have in your signature that "You're with D&D, any edition".




There is no irony.  My disagreement with WotC has nothing to do with edition.  I also don't get into this silly Paizo vs. WotC thing.  I want both to succeed, but I especially want WotC to quit screwing up.  I challenge you to find any post of mine that doesn't support this.

Criticizing WotC policies is not criticizing 4E.  Try to not fall into the same trap that many on these boards seem to succumb to.


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## Dannager (Aug 15, 2011)

Umbran said:


> I have never understood that sort of thing - I'm sorry, but it sounds a lot like, "You produced strawberry ice cream at some time, so I will never buy your chocolate!"
> 
> Voting with your wallet is a limited communication tool.  If you don't like A, you don't buy A, and if A doesn't sell well, then they know not to do A again.  If you don't buy B, they have no way to connect that with how you didn't like A.  It fails to communicate your dislike, and so is of no service to either of you.
> 
> ...




Basically. Ultimatums are fine when you hold all the cards. Individual customers delivering ultimatums, though? yaomingface.jpg.


----------



## Kobold Boots (Aug 15, 2011)

El Mahdi said:


> There is no irony.  My disagreement with WotC has nothing to do with edition.  I also don't get into this silly Paizo vs. WotC thing.  I want both to succeed, but I especially want WotC to quit screwing up.  I challenge you to find any post of mine that doesn't support this.
> 
> Criticizing WotC policies is not criticizing 4E.  Try to not fall into the same trap that many on these boards seem to succumb to.




Ok, I'll take your advice.  Thank you.

My opinion is that if you support the game, you support the company.  If you support the company, you support their games.  Like any person or thing that makes decisions, they make their decisions to benefit themselves first, and where benefit to others coincides with their own interests, others gain.

I can guarantee that there will be some segment of the market that appreciates the subscription model regardless of the people currently speaking against it without information now.  Thinking outside the box, here's the irony.  You are against a subscription model for earlier editions of D&D.  Provided that those editions are republished that in turn makes you against an edition of D&D in some part.

So my advice to you would be, if you'd consider it.. support something in its totality if you support any part of it.


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## Lanefan (Aug 15, 2011)

If they're looking at re-issuing 1e - particularly the adventure modules - in hard-copy print that I can buy in a store, I'm all in!  I just spent far too much at GenCon trying to fill out my collection, and some of what I have is in pretty sorry shape...being able to buy them new in hard copy would rock on toast.

Any format that requires me to do my own printing (e.g. pdf), pretty much count me out; but I can accept that it might have to go this way due to cost concerns. 

Any format where I have to pay more than once for the same material (e.g. rental) and-or can only be accessed online will put me in the pitchforks-and-torches brigade.

I don't use a computer behind the screen - in fact, microchips are banned from the table during games (exception: calculators) - if for no other reason than I simply have nowhere to put one.

Lan-"sometimes the low-tech solution really is the best"-efan


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 15, 2011)

> If they're looking at re-issuing 1e - particularly the adventure modules - in hard-copy print that I can buy in a store, I'm all in! I just spent far too much at GenCon trying to fill out my collection, and some of what I have is in pretty sorry shape...being able to buy them new in hard copy would rock on toast.
> 
> Any format that requires me to do my own printing (e.g. pdf), pretty much count me out; but I can accept that it might have to go this way due to cost concerns.




Amen to the first, and as to the second, I'd buy pdfs or their equivalent for my (as yet not purchased tablet or eReader) if the price was right, just as backup.  Any other kind of release, such as rental/subscription, will yield zero dollars from me.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Aug 15, 2011)

Hmm.

The most important factors, for me are:


The older the material is, the more likely I am to be interested in a re-issued/new publication of it.  That's not just because I prefer the older editions, but also because used 3e material is mostly cheap and easy to find, but used original D&D rules, or early AD&D modules, are increasingly difficult to find and increasingly expensive.
I'm absolutely uninterested in an _ongoing_ subscription to access D&D content.  If I have to keep paying to access the content, then I won't.  However, if it's a case of subscribe, download content (e.g. PDFs) and keep it forever, then I might.
Print is better than PDF, but PDF is better than nothing.

So if WotC releases a bunch of 3e stuff, I'll take no notice.  If they set up a subscription model that lets you access earlier edition material, but only while you're an active subscriber, then I'll take no notice.  If they release original D&D and 1e AD&D material in a manner where I can pay for it and it's mine, then I'll be interested.


----------



## GreyLord (Aug 15, 2011)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> Hmm.
> 
> The most important factors, for me are:
> 
> ...




How about a small time fee (let's say $12) to have ALL THE MATERIAL of something every published for a period of 12 months...access anywhere anytime via computer?  You can even print it off if you so desire.

Or perhaps instead buy it forever via Amazon for a Kindle, or B&N for a Nook, or otherwise?   Limited to one download however (so one kindle or one nook), or maybe two or three.

How about instead maybe to a program that you can install on one computer.  You can print, you can save, but you can only install once on one computer.  It's yours to keep however.

There's more than simply making someone subscribe to DDi in the limited access arena...are they all equal in how much people hate them?


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## IronWolf (Aug 15, 2011)

GreyLord said:


> How about a small time fee (let's say $12) to have ALL THE MATERIAL of something every published for a period of 12 months...access anywhere anytime via computer?  You can even print it off if you so desire.
> 
> Or perhaps instead buy it forever via Amazon for a Kindle, or B&N for a Nook, or otherwise?   Limited to one download however (so one kindle or one nook), or maybe two or three.
> 
> ...




There are certainly other options to provide conent that people might like. And some people would be happy with content accessible via DDI while you have an active sub.

For me, downloadable PDFs would be fine. 

Looking at your suggestions above, subs of any sort where I lose access probably isn't what I would consider a viable option. That's just me, I am aware others have no issue with this option.

I dislike proprietary applications to access my content as I cannot be assured it will continue to exist in 2, 3 or 5 years. Whereas with a PDF I have my choice of apps to use to use the content and if PDFs do fall to the wayside in the future I suspect a conversion tool to the latest file format will surface.

Maybe there is a middle Ground in there somewhere....


----------



## JeffB (Aug 15, 2011)

Another voicing for "no subscription and/or rental service will be tolerated for OOP materials" 

I hate PDFs but I bought a bunch of them before for OOP D^D materials, and I will again, if the price is reasonable. 

Of course I would prefer print, or the POD option. But I'm not holding my breath.

Actually, I'm not holding my breath for any of the OOP materials, because so far all we have is basically "we are looking into it"..which in corporate speak amounts to nothing.


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## TheYeti1775 (Aug 15, 2011)

Thinking on this a little bit, there might be another solution for both sides.

WotC has a need for a continous revenue stream - correct?
There is a segment of the gaming population that wants old OOP material - correct?

Most of that segment seems (IMHO) to agree that a 'rental' option is a no go.
However they are open to the idea of being allowed to download/print on demand behind DDI.

Now rather than full on release of everything and WotC getting a one time influx.

Would the majority of us that want OOP products, be open to the following:

Limited Release each month for download.
This is where say in month one they only offer the PHB/DMG/MM1.
The following month they aren't available but all the A-Series Modules are.

This would offer a many-fold solution in my opinion for WotC.
1. How many of us would purchase that DDI subscription that WotC wants us to be in? I would.
2. The Limited Release would prevent what happened with the Character Builder single month downloader subscribers.
3. With the monthly change, the OOP crowd is continuing to come to the site each month to do a Print On Demand or Download.
That leads them to continue to look around and see what else is available.
4. DDI Articles, a whole new line of material opens up.  Recommendations for converting that month's offerings to the current edition.  Because we know deep down WotC would love us on the current edition no matter if it's 4th or if it's 8th edition at the time.

Really the only negatives from my prespective as a former WotC product purchaser(RPG/Minis), is that I would have to subscribe for a length of time to see all my old beloved games.
And that's not even that big of a negative.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 15, 2011)

TheYeti1775 said:


> However they are open to the idea of being allowed to download/print on demand behind DDI.
> 
> Now rather than full on release of everything and WotC getting a one time influx.
> 
> ...




I was just thinking this, too.  "Subscription" doesn't mean "rental".  You used to "subscribe" to Dragon in print form, but you didn't rent it.  Paizo was using a subscription model for AP distribution, but no rental was involved.  I could easily see a "Retro-edition subscription" in this sense.


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## the Jester (Aug 15, 2011)

Lanefan said:


> If they're looking at re-issuing 1e - particularly the adventure modules - in hard-copy print that I can buy in a store, I'm all in!




Yeah, there are a goodly number of old modules I'd love to reacquire. I still have most of the 1e hardbacks, though my Oriental Adventures and Unearthed Arcana are the two books in by far the worst condition that I own. Anything else in that condition I would throw away.



Lanefan said:


> Any format that requires me to do my own printing (e.g. pdf), pretty much count me out; but I can accept that it might have to go this way due to cost concerns.




I'm not interested in paying per pdf, but if WotC put downloadable pdfs up on DDI or something, I would eat that like a nice cut of tri-tip.



Lanefan said:


> Any format where I have to pay more than once for the same material (e.g. rental) and-or can only be accessed online will put me in the pitchforks-and-torches brigade.




I won't go that far, but I will say that it would be insulting and I'd have no motivation to jump at that; in fact, it would be a HUGE disincentive for me to buy back in to DDI (although once the Monster Builder can actually, you know, _build monsters_ again and we're back to where we were a year or two ago in functionality, I'm probably going to buy back in anyhow).



Lanefan said:


> I don't use a computer behind the screen...




Yeah, I don't either. I tried it out for a while, but the screen is somehow too much of a distraction from the group at the table.


----------



## Silverblade The Ench (Aug 15, 2011)

> They do have a new campaign setting they aren't ready to announce. Supposed to introduce a twist on traditional play. Not useful, but I understand not announcing until you're ready




Hoping it's Spelljammer!! And rules for ship to ship combat (ships as single creatures as 4th ed brought in, simplifying the combat thereby, were a damn good idea)

Would kill for bunch of Spelljammer minis/ship decks boards, and pdfs of some classic Dark Sun and other stuff, like the first Undermountain boxed set.

"_Give me Spelljammer, or give me flumphs!" _


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## Dark Mistress (Aug 15, 2011)

GreyLord said:


> How about a small time fee (let's say $12) to have ALL THE MATERIAL of something every published for a period of 12 months...access anywhere anytime via computer?  You can even print it off if you so desire.
> 
> Or perhaps instead buy it forever via Amazon for a Kindle, or B&N for a Nook, or otherwise?   Limited to one download however (so one kindle or one nook), or maybe two or three.
> 
> ...




I know this wasn't directed at me, but since I am interesting in older stuff myself I will reply.

No

no - number two is the only one I would consider and if it was 5 or more DL's I might consider it.

and

no

The other two I wouldn't even consider, unless they was dirt and I mean dirt cheap.


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## JeffB (Aug 15, 2011)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Limited Release each month for download.
> This is where say in month one they only offer the PHB/DMG/MM1.
> The following month they aren't available but all the A-Series Modules are.
> .





what happens if I really want to buy the phb/mm/dmg, but won't have the cha-ching until next month? 

What about people who want it 6 months  or a year down the road and they are screwed because they didn't happen to even know about "PHB/MM/DMG" month, 6 months to a year ago?

Unless I am misunderstanding you, that model of sale is horrible.


----------



## TheYeti1775 (Aug 15, 2011)

JeffB said:


> what happens if I really want to buy the phb/mm/dmg, but won't have the cha-ching until next month?
> 
> What about people who want it 6 months  or a year down the road and they are screwed because they didn't happen to even know about "PHB/MM/DMG" month, 6 months to a year ago?
> 
> Unless I am misunderstanding you, that model of sale is horrible.



Yeah it has issues, but that is pretty much throne sitting thinking on it coming up with it as an outsider looking in.
The majority of the crowd that WotC would be targeting with releasing, would be an older more mature crowd who already budget and have expendable income.

But also my model was it was free behind the DDI as part of your subscription fee.  I would keep it available if it was on a paid for basis.
I only offered that model (as free limited downloads) for keeping subscribers each month subscribed and not doing like many did with the Character Builder and simply subscribing for one month than canceling once they got it.

So your cha-ching would only be needed for your subscription to the DDI. Unless you were doing a Print on Demand of Course.


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## Falstaff (Aug 15, 2011)

This is just my opinion, of course, and I realize that everyone doesn't feel this way and I realize that everyone is entitled to play D&D however they want, but, even as much as I love D&D, I'll never pay for a D&D Insider account. Never. Ever.

Why? Simply because I still play the game the same way that I've been playing for over 30 years: with friends, at a table, with dice and paper and pencils, with bad food everywhere. There are no illuminated screens or devices that need plugging in anywhere. And as far as I'm concerned, there never will be at my table.

I understand that newer gamers don't mind laptops and other computer devices and smartphones used at the table, or even required to play. And that's fine. I'll just never play D&D that way.

Now if WotC wants me to give them money, then they'd have to cater to me, which means offer AD&D back in print and supported with new settings and modules and box-set adventures.

That won't happen. But someone up thread mentioned that WotC was told about this thread. I thought I'd share in case they are wondering what one 40 year old gamer was hoping for.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Aug 15, 2011)

Perhaps a model where you subscribe and get 1 or more free downloads of older edition books per month.  That would prevent people from missing the "month of the PHB," but would still provide an incentive to keep a subscription.  You could also peg the number of free "old edition" downloads per month to the length of the subscription, so that longer subscription periods allow more free downloads per month.

The whole key, as far as I'm concerned, is that if I'm paying the money, I want to own the content I'm getting.  Not a license.  Not a "rental."  Not a "you own the content but must use our viewer/app to access it, and you must keep paying for that..."  Own.  Edit -- And not a DRM-crippled version of the content, either.

A subscription model that allows me to own the content would at least be worthy of consideration.  Depending on the pricing structure, it might even be a yes.  That said, I would still prefer to be able to simply purchase the PDFs without a subscription.  That's a much easier sell.


----------



## Philotomy Jurament (Aug 15, 2011)

GreyLord said:


> How about a small time fee (let's say $12) to have ALL THE MATERIAL of something every published for a period of 12 months...access anywhere anytime via computer?  You can even print it off if you so desire.



Depends on the formatting of the printed document: if it's like a printed web page, I'm less likely to be interested.  If it prints like a document that was formatted for printing, then I might.  The thing is, if I can print it off, I can "print" it to a PDF.  So they might as well just sell me a PDF.



> Or perhaps instead buy it forever via Amazon for a Kindle, or B&N for a Nook, or otherwise?   Limited to one download however (so one kindle or one nook), or maybe two or three.



No.  I think ebook versions would be fine, but I want to buy them and own them without additional limitations/restrictions.



> How about instead maybe to a program that you can install on one computer.  You can print, you can save, but you can only install once on one computer.  It's yours to keep however.



No.  I want to buy the content as a book or a file that I own.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Aug 15, 2011)

Falstaff said:


> I'll never pay for a D&D Insider account. Never. Ever.
> 
> Why? Simply because I still play the game the same way that I've been playing for over 30 years: with friends, at a table, with dice and paper and pencils, with bad food everywhere. There are no illuminated screens or devices that need plugging in anywhere.




That's how I play D&D, too.  I'm completely uninterested in an DDI account as a means of _accessing_ or _using_ the content.  However, I wouldn't rule out the DDI as a means of _acquiring_ content.


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## Falstaff (Aug 15, 2011)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> That's how I play D&D, too.  I'm completely uninterested in an DDI account as a means of _accessing_ or _using_ the content.  However, I wouldn't rule out the DDI as a means of _acquiring_ content.




I see what you mean. But then I'd have to print it out and place it in a binder of some type. I'd much rather they just offer print versions I can go buy from my local game shop.


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## Philotomy Jurament (Aug 16, 2011)

Falstaff said:


> I see what you mean. But then I'd have to print it out and place it in a binder of some type. I'd much rather they just offer print versions I can go buy from my local game shop.



I prefer that, too (especially for something like AD&D rulebooks, which I think are too long for the "print it yourself" approach).  However, I've used printed PDFs of modules at my table, and would do so, again.  If it's a choice between print and PDF, I'll take print.  But if it's a choice between nothing and PDF, I'll take PDF.


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## Falstaff (Aug 16, 2011)

Philotomy Jurament said:


> I prefer that, too (especially for something like AD&D rulebooks, which I think are too long for the "print it yourself" approach).  However, I've used printed PDFs of modules at my table, and would do so, again.  If it's a choice between print and PDF, I'll take print.  But if it's a choice between nothing and PDF, I'll take PDF.




Good point.


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## TheYeti1775 (Aug 16, 2011)

Falstaff said:


> This is just my opinion, of course, and I realize that everyone doesn't feel this way and I realize that everyone is entitled to play D&D however they want, but, even as much as I love D&D, I'll never pay for a D&D Insider account. Never. Ever.
> 
> Why? Simply because I still play the game the same way that I've been playing for over 30 years: with friends, at a table, with dice and paper and pencils, with bad food everywhere. There are no illuminated screens or devices that need plugging in anywhere. And as far as I'm concerned, there never will be at my table.
> 
> ...




So your willingly putting yourself into a no compromise situation.
Personally if WotC were to do all this behind the DDI I would treat it much like I would my Costco/Sam's/BJ's membership.  I pay an annual fee to have access to their store.

WotC's/Hasbro's major concern has to be their bottom line.

By throwing out there the option of their pushed revenue stream providing possibly more customers, we gain some leverage in the fact they might be willing to bend and bring back some of the older editions.

Both sides give some in this method.
But a steadfast refusal just lets them put you into the not going to be a customer file.

Whereas some compromise might convince them to meet us half-way.



Falstaff said:


> I see what you mean. But then I'd have to print it out and place it in a binder of some type. I'd much rather they just offer print versions I can go buy from my local game shop.




Would you be open to a Print on Demand Option behind the DDI.


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## Falstaff (Aug 16, 2011)

TheYeti1775 said:


> Would you be open to a Print on Demand Option behind the DDI.




Probably not. I would be open to purchasing copies through LuLu or something equivalent, but I'm not going to pay a yearly or monthly access to D&Di.

And I fully realize that I'm not their target customer. Haven't been for many years.


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## Voadam (Aug 16, 2011)

Umbran said:


> I was just thinking this, too.  "Subscription" doesn't mean "rental".



Unless you are talking about WotC's DDI. Your subscription rents the compendium, character builder, and monster builder.



> You used to "subscribe" to Dragon in print form, but you didn't rent it.  Paizo was using a subscription model for AP distribution, but no rental was involved.  I could easily see a "Retro-edition subscription" in this sense.




You used to subscribe to DDI and get updates to the character and monster builders that you kept. They changed what they offered for your subscription in the direction from owning stuff to renting access to stuff.

Dragon and Dungeon are still pdfs you can download and keep, but I think that's all you will have from DDI now when your subscription is over.

WotC has a lot of options and could choose to offer some fantastic products for customers and some not so fantastic options. We'll see if anything ever happens.


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## IronWolf (Aug 16, 2011)

Voadam said:


> Dragon and Dungeon are still pdfs you can download and keep, but I think that's all you will have from DDI now when your subscription is over.




I thought they stopped offering PDFS Of the mags as well and switched to an article release method of distribution?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Aug 16, 2011)

> So your willingly putting yourself into a no compromise situation.
> Personally if WotC were to do all this behind the DDI I would treat it much like I would my Costco/Sam's/BJ's membership. I pay an annual fee to have access to their store.
> 
> WotC's/Hasbro's major concern has to be their bottom line.
> ...



Compromise doesn't mean capitulating to something you find unacceptable.

There is nothing wrong in refusing to support a certain format or business model.

I have a similar position to the one you cited: I have zero interest in DDI, in subscription models that leave me with no physical product, and so forth.  And I have several reasons for it (that need not be gone into here).

Do I resent WotC for it?  Not in the least.  I think its probably good business.  Hell, if I were doing a startup in the industry today, I'd try to emulate what they're doing to a certain extent.

Am I resigned to possibly being "not a customer" because I _personally_ have no desire to use pdfs or online devices at my table?  Yes.

I'm the same way about music purchases.  I'm an Entertainment lawyer, and I have thousands and thousands of CDs, as well as releases in other formats.  I own zero mp3s...and have no desire to purchase any.  At some point, CD's will go the way of the LP* and most of music releases will be in mp3 (or similar) format only.

I _routinely_ advise clients to maximize their use of electronic media formats.

And I won't be buying 'em...nor will I subscribe to XM or the like.










* which, BTW, was the biggest growth segment of the music industry in 2010, growing almost 40%...to comprise 1.5% of the total market.


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## BriarMonkey (Aug 16, 2011)

Way back in the before times, I had picked up these neat book covers from Chaosium to go on my AD & D hardcovers.  They were vinyl.  They stuck - litterally - over the years and now I can't take them off without leaving a horrid sticky residue on the books...  <sad face>

So, if WotC does physical reprints, or allows for PoD, then I would definitely pick up new copies of my books.  However, if they instead "rent" access to the books via DDI, then count me out.  I shouldn't have to be tethered to the interwebs to play my game.


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## IronWolf (Aug 16, 2011)

BriarMonkey said:


> Way back in the before times, I had picked up these neat book covers from Chaosium to go on my AD & D hardcovers.  They were vinyl.  They stuck - litterally - over the years and now I can't take them off without leaving a horrid sticky residue on the books...  <sad face>




Were those the grey vinyl covers? I think I had some of those back in the day...


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## JeffB (Aug 17, 2011)

TheYeti1775 said:


> S
> Personally if WotC were to do all this behind the DDI I would treat it much like I would my Costco/Sam's/BJ's membership.  I pay an annual fee to have access to their store..




But everything I buy at Costco I get to take home, use and keep, or throw away or whatever the heck I want to do with it.

If WOTC was to offer this- a "members fee" for 6 months, and I could download and KEEP everything after my subscription ran out (i.e. not rent, like current DDI) I'd be OK with that.

But I still want POD of some type- as long as I am wishing


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## francisca (Aug 17, 2011)

No way in hell I'd pony up for DDI, even for access to old-school D&D stuff.

I've no need to compromise.  I own several copies of the AD&D core books, and I've cut apart the MM and PHB, scanned them, and now have PDFs which print really well (no, you can't have a copy, don't ask, I didn't do this to share with random jokers on the net.)  I'm working on the DMG now, and will move on to the FF, MMII, UA, and D&DG when I'm done.

And there is always OSRIC.

WotC lost me as a customer of their RPGs years ago, and no amount of nostalgia on the part of Mearls, nor putting the PDFs of old editions back online would get me back, let alone some rented copy of the old material on DDI.  

Look, I understand how compelling the subscription-based business model is for WotC, and I'm not fundamentally opposed to the model, or the idea of "licensing" things or services on a pay-per-month or pay-per-access basis.  But for this particular type of product (table-top RPGs), and my particular situation (shelves stocked full, and electronic copies of key components) it's a non-starter for me as a customer.  This isn't limited to WotC/D&D, either.  I wouldn't pony up for a month sub to play any TTRPG such as Pathfinder, or Classic Traveller, etc..


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## BriarMonkey (Aug 17, 2011)

IronWolf said:


> Were those the grey vinyl covers? I think I had some of those back in the day...




Black, with various artwork, in white, on the front (like the symbol of Chaos).  They were really nice new, but they definitely did not hold up to the test of time...


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## Voadam (Aug 17, 2011)

IronWolf said:


> I thought they stopped offering PDFS Of the mags as well and switched to an article release method of distribution?




My understanding is that they still offer Dungeon and Dragon individual article pdfs. They are erratically putting out individual article pdfs and not compiled magazine pdfs the way they were before but since they are pdfs you download you still physically have the ones you downloaded if you end your subscription.

I ended my DDI subscription a while ago when it went from pay for updates to tools you own to pay to rent access. I haven't been really been back to the website since so I can't say for sure whether the current pdf articles are still classified as Dungeon and Dragon magazine stuff or whether they are now just articles.


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## IronWolf (Aug 17, 2011)

Voadam said:


> My understanding is that they still offer Dungeon and Dragon individual article pdfs. They are erratically putting out individual article pdfs and not compiled magazine pdfs the way they were before but since they are pdfs you download you still physically have the ones you downloaded if you end your subscription.




Ah! Gotcha. While not my idea of a digital magazine it would provide a means for you to keep articles after your subscription was ended.

Thanks for the info!


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## El Mahdi (Aug 17, 2011)

francisca said:


> No way in hell I'd pony up for DDI, even for access to old-school D&D stuff...
> 
> ...WotC lost me as a customer of their RPGs years ago, and no amount of nostalgia on the part of Mearls, nor putting the PDFs of old editions back online would get me back, let alone some rented copy of the old material on DDI.
> 
> Look, I understand how compelling the subscription-based business model is for WotC, and I'm not fundamentally opposed to the model, or the idea of "licensing" things or services on a pay-per-month or pay-per-access basis. But for this particular type of product (table-top RPGs), and my particular situation (shelves stocked full, and electronic copies of key components) it's a non-starter for me as a customer. This isn't limited to WotC/D&D, either. I wouldn't pony up for a month sub to play any TTRPG such as Pathfinder, or Classic Traveller, etc..




I understand how you feel, and if WotC does a "rent" model I'll be in the same position as you - done with WotC.

For me though, if WotC does this in a fair manner, they'll have me back.  Even though I don't specificaly play 4E, I did buy the original 3-book set and a couple of the first adventures.  And I would have continued to buy adventures, and I would have bought the Essentials stuff, if it hadn't have been for WotC's atrocious treatment of their customer base, culminating in the pdf fiasco.

But, I do understand the need and desire for a subscription system - it's a consistent and guaranteed revenue stream - but renting earlier edtition books while new edition stuff can be owned, that's just not fair.  I would think it's just about guaranteed to fail as far as bringing back old customers.

Paying a subscription for an online compendium of older editions - Yes.
Paying a subscription for online tools for older editions - Yes.
Paying a subscription for an online magazine with (even occasional) older edition content - Yes.
Paying a subscription for access to an online store where I can buy pdf's - I don't like it, but I understand it, so Yes.
POD of older edition books - Yes.

Renting Books - Not a chance in Hell.


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## Mournblade94 (Aug 18, 2011)

francisca said:


> No way in hell I'd pony up for DDI, even for access to old-school D&D stuff.
> 
> I've no need to compromise. I own several copies of the AD&D core books, and I've cut apart the MM and PHB, scanned them, and now have PDFs which print really well (no, you can't have a copy, don't ask, I didn't do this to share with random jokers on the net.) I'm working on the DMG now, and will move on to the FF, MMII, UA, and D&DG when I'm done.
> 
> ...




I can say WOTC lost me as a customer as well, however it is unfair to complain and criticise if they have no chance of getting you back.  If WOTC attempted to get lapsed players back, I would go so far as to buy 4e products for the games I play in rather than using other player's DDI or books.


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## Dragon Snack (Aug 18, 2011)

Dragon Snack said:


> ...I haven't updated it yet since I'm not at the store, so I don't know exactly what it means.  But given the proximity of the announcement and the software update...



Ugh.  The update was seriously flawed on the D&D side.  So bad that it wouldn't let you report D&D Encounters as a D&D game - it literally made it into a Magic event and wanted you to set up matches.  And it's still not fixed over a week later...



Orius said:


> Possibly they're taking a page from M:tG here.  I understand there are different rules formats for Magic tournaments, one format only allows the most recent up-to-date cards while there's at least one more that allows cards from older sets and editions.



There are a lot of formats for Magic, but for this discussion we will stick with "Standard" for recent cards and "Legacy" for older cards.

As for Legacy Magic events being reportable, yes they are - however the issue of Magic being a collectible card game clouds the comparison.  If you couldn't keep playing the older cards they would lose their value.  To further confuse the issue, WotC also reprints (meaning they can be used in Standard) as well as re-releases some older cards in newer products outside of the current sets (which are not usable in the Standard format, but can be in the older Legacy format).  

And let's face it, there are a LOT of old Magic cards out there.  As a store I have access to tons of older Magic cards to sell as singles.  The same thing cannot be said of older D&D products.  2E D&D was my best selling RPG when I opened up (2.5 years ago) - until I ran out out of the books to sell...


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## Arkhandus (Aug 18, 2011)

.......much as I'd love to pick up some old D&D products, I don't think I'd do so if I had to get a DDI subscription.  Least of all if the only way to view the material was by going online during the subscription every time.  And printing it all out would be a hassle.  Better if I could just download it to my flash-drive and use it on my laptop when I'm running a game, but my laptop doesn't have internet.


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## Virel (Oct 7, 2011)

So what is WotC doing with the old AD&D materials?

Reprint or DDI or Nothing?


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## El Mahdi (Oct 7, 2011)

Nobody knows yet, and WotC isn't talking (just hinting).


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## SHARK (Oct 9, 2011)

francisca said:


> No way in hell I'd pony up for DDI, even for access to old-school D&D stuff.
> 
> I've no need to compromise.  I own several copies of the AD&D core books, and I've cut apart the MM and PHB, scanned them, and now have PDFs which print really well (no, you can't have a copy, don't ask, I didn't do this to share with random jokers on the net.)  I'm working on the DMG now, and will move on to the FF, MMII, UA, and D&DG when I'm done.
> 
> ...




Greetings!

I have to say URR-RAH! my brother! I entirely agree with you. I haven't purchased a single thing from WOTC since...2006 or 2007. I have, however, purchased a hard-cover book of OSRIC.

(1) I own *several* copies of AD&D books--all of them. I have three of everything. I own most of the game modules, and almost all of the boxed sets of everything.

(2) I literally own *thousands* of dollars worth of D20 and 3X books. As with AD&D, I have three or four copies of the core rulebooks. I have several entire bookcases *stuffed* with nearly everything they produced for 3rd Edition. I have a far more complete and thorough collection than many game stores ever had, I'm chagrined to say. However, overall, I'm pleased with my library. I have so much stuff--my collection can quite literally last a lifetime. I can run campaigns entirely without ever so much as using much of it, there is so much. Not enough time in the day or any one campaign to use all of it for certain.

I admit it. I became entirely soured on WOTC with 4E. I have several hundreds of dollars of books I have hardly even cracked open--when they came out with 4E. I am just exhausted with the endless treadmill of edition nonsense--all so as to fatten up the bottom line of WOTC? I don't think so.

Honestly, while initially I was somewhat willing to look at 4E as a consumer and fan--the more I thought about my vast library of 3E stuff now being entirely obselete--some of which as I noted I hadn't even had a chance to read thoroughly yet, let alone actually incorporate into my campaigns--and yet, now there's a new edition, and all that stuff is obselete and useless? Yeah, no way. I don't think so.

Then, the ongoing cascade of DDI, computers, Iphones, and all these technological paraphanellia--NO.

Not only NO--but EFF NO. I'm an "Old School" dinosaur, and proud of it. I play the games with friends and run the campaign at the TABLE. with pencils, paper, binders, graph paper, and rule books. As well as food, drinks, and damn fine cigars!

No computers, no phones, cameras, or whazzoos. just no already. I haven't played with that in the 30 years I've been playing D&D--since damn, 1979?--and I am not going to start now. I'm certainly not going to do so yoked into some rental-subscribtion scheme cooked up and saddled to me by WOTC just so they can maximize their "revenue stream". Sorry, this is where I get off from the "consumer train". I guess I've been done anyways since 2006 or 2007.

And, as a side note, marketing-wise, with all the whole thing with 4E--not just the rules per se--but the whole packaging--it has less to do with the specifics of the edition mechanics--and more to do with...just the whole set up--in how they have handled us, as customers, as fans, as hobbyists--as "Investors" in many ways--it has felt like I--and many of my friends, fellow gamers and compatriots--have been left behind, and really are not part of their *market segment* or *Target audience* anymore.

There's no need to compromise. I do not need to compromise my belifs, my expectations--or my wallet. No need to compromise at all, my friends. Not at all.

I haven't been a "customer" of WOTC for some 4 or 5 years now, and likely never will be again. As I slowly puff on my fine, Arturo Fuente cigar, enjoying the rich scent and flavour...considering my next 3E campaign, or a new AD&D campaign...that's just fine with me.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK


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