# Converting the Dukes of Hell



## BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

Hello!    Welcome to our first (and probably will be the only) mega-project.

In this thread, we will be attempting to convert the stats of all the major, unique Dukes of Hell from 1st edition.  This does not include any of the current Lords of the Nine, and encompasses the following 59 unique devils (from Monster Manual II, Dragon 75, 76, and 91): *Moloch*, (maybe Geryon too, pre-death), Amon, *Bael*, Bitru, *Hutijin*, *Titivilus*, Amduscias, Malphas, Nergal, Bist, Caim, Lilis, Arioch, Biffant, Merodach, Alocer, Focalor, Caarcrinolaas, Melchon, Naome, Chamo, *Balan*, *Bathym*, Gaziel, Cozbi, Gorson, Herodias, *Agares*, Machalas, *Lilith*, *Tartach*, Bileth, Baftis, Neabaz, Barbatos, Abigor, Zepar, Baalphegor, Bele, Adonides, Barbas, Bifrons, Bensozia, *Adramalech*, Phongor, Buer, Bune, Morax, Rimmon, Zagum, Armaros, Azazel, Cahor, Dagon, Duskur, Kochibel, Malarea, Nisroch, and Rumjal (not in that particular order, though).

*NOTE:*  Those in bold have since appeared in Dragon Online's _Infernal Aristocracy _ articles.

These beings will appear on the Creature Catalog site when finished, and we will be working on them one layer of Hell at a time.  We will start with Avernus (which will include the most conversions, considering the outcast dukes), then Dis, Minauros, Phelegthos, Stygia, Malbolge, Maladomini, Caina, and then Nessus.

The target CRs for most of these creatures will be higher than a pit fiend, and lower than Dispater's in Book of Vile Darkness.  We'll see how that comes out as we go.  I think before doing any conversions, we'll need to set a range for HD.

Thoughts, and initial reactions?


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2007)

Initial reaction:  Woo-hoo!    

HD Range:

A pit fiend has 18 HD at CR 20.  That should be rock-bottom for these guys.

The BoVD Dispater has 34 HD at CR 26.  I'm assuming that is our uppermost range.

HD by CR in this range:

CR 20:  Pit fiend (18 HD), Aspect of Bel (22 HD), Bel (26 HD)
CR 21:  Aspect of Belial (30 HD), Aspect of Dispater (28 HD), Aspect of Levistus (25 HD),
           Aspect of Mammon (28 HD)
CR 22:  Aspect of Glasya (28 HD), Geryon (30 HD), The Hag Countess (33 HD)
CR 23:  Aspect of Baalzebul (30 HD)
CR 24:  Aspect of Mephistopheles (30 HD), Belial (36 HD), Fierna (36 HD)
CR 25:  Mammon (34 HD), Levistus (33 HD)
CR 26:  Dispater (34 HD)


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## BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

Given that the CR range is very small, whereas the HD range should be bigger, I'd rather start with HD and let the CR-chips fall where they may, accordingly.  

The 1E pit fiend had 13 HD, which if you assume an average of 4.5 on a d8 would mean the average one would have 58 hp; thus, a whole lot less than the average duke.

Moloch should still be powerful like the other archdevils, but of course his political influence and the advantages of controlling a whole layer are gone.  It still shows that he was merely one of the most powerful dukes before gaining his own layer, since he has the same hp as Amon.  

Going by the assumption that a pit fiend would have had 58 hp, then the absolute weakest of the unique devils was Lilis, who was just a little bit more powerful than a pit fiend (in terms of hp at least).  The weakest of the original archdevils were Moloch, Geryon, and Mammon (again, in terms of hp).  Almost all of the dukes had fewer hp than Moloch; the only exceptions being Bael, Amon, Gorson, and Buer (who tie with him), Chamo, Herodias, Adramalech, and Zagum (who are slightly higher than him), Bune and Morax (who are higher than Geryon), and Bifrons (who is even higher than Mammon!); all dukes are below Dispater in terms of HD though, which supports my statement that the projected CRs should be below his BoVD stats.

Speaking of BoVD stats, let’s have a quick look at the HDs of some of those lords: Dispater 34, Mammon 34, Belial 36, Baalzebul 38, Mephistopheles 38, and Asmodeus 35 (for some unknown reason).  A 3.5 pit fiend has 18 HD.  So, likely, Lilis would be at 19 or 20 HD, and we could put Bifrons as high as 34, making all others fall somewhere in between.  What we need to do is figure out a scale.

Here’s a possible method; going up by 6’s.  

HD – 1E hp
21 – 60-66
22 – 66-72
23 – 72-78
24 – 78-84
25 – 84-90
26 – 90-96
27 – 96-102
28 – 102-108
29 – 108-114
30 – 114-120
31 – 120-126
32 – 126-132
33 – 132-138
34 – 138-144

Going that way, most dukes would have HD in the mid-high 20s, with a few breaking over 30, and only some of the consorts going below 25 HD.  I’d be willing to adjust that down by one, if you feel strongly that the dukes should all be at least one step below the archdevils HD-wise, but I’d put even Lilis at no less than 20-HD.

_(Tiamat)_
Amduscias - 92
Malphas - 90

Nergal - 106
Bist - 90
Caim - 93
Armaros - 99
Azazel - 97
Cahor - 93
Dagon - 91
Duskur - 111
Kochibel - 104
Malarea - 96
Nisroch - 99
Rumjal - 100

_Dispater_ - 144
Lilis - 66
Titivilus - 86
Arioch - 123
Biffant - 84
Merodach - 92
Alocer - 90
Bitru - 99

_Mammon_ - 139
Bael - 126
_Glasya_ - 69
Focalor - 121
Caarcrinolaas - 104
Melchon - 101

_Belial_ - 154
Naome - 69
Chamo - 131
Balan - 112
Bathym - 102
Gaziel - 116

Geryon - 133
Cozbi - 67
Amon - 126
Gorson - 126
Herodias - 129
Agares - 119
Machalas - 122

Moloch - 126
Lilith - 71
Tartach - 114
Bileth - 121

_Baalzebul_ - 166
Baftis - 79
Neabaz - 124
Barbatos - 122
Abigor - 120
Zepar - 118

_Mephistopheles_ - 188
Baalphegor - 82
Hutijin - 111
Bele - 112
Adonides - 121
Barbas - 110
Bifrons - 141

_Asmodeus_ - 199
Bensozia - 86
Adramalech - 133
Phongor - 129
Buer - 126
Bune - 136
Morax - 135
Rimmon - 125
Zagum - 127


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2007)

Also, note that a couple of the Dukes had (abbreviated) stats in BovD and its web enhancement:

Amon (CR 18; HD 26d8+234; hp 351)
Martinet (CR 13; HD HD 18d8+90; hp 171)

3E CR notwithstanding, Amon is Bel's (Bael's) equal in both 1E and 3E in terms of HD.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

i'm not thinking of messing with Martinet at the moment, although i do want to get to Amon; note that with my above chart, Amon will definitely be higher than his BoVD WE stats.    also, Bel and Bael are two separate individuals (believe it or not; a few of these names are awfully close).

i took the liberty of filling in the names from the above list into my range chart:

HD – 1E hp
21 – 60-66 – Lilis*
22 – 66-72 – Naome, Cozbi, Lilith
23 – 72-78 - 
24 – 78-84 – Biffant*, Baftis, Baalphegor
25 – 84-90 – Malphas*, Bist*, Titivilus, Alocer*, Bensozia
26 – 90-96 – Amduscias, Caim, Cahor, Dagon, Malarea*, Merodach
27 – 96-102 – Armaros, Azazel, Nisroch, Rumjal, Bitru, Melchon, Bathym*
28 – 102-108 – Nergal, Kochibel, Caarcrinolaas
29 – 108-114 – Duskur, Balan, Tartach*, Hutijin, Bele, Barbas
30 – 114-120 – Gaziel, Agares, Abigor*, Zepar
31 – 120-126 – Arioch, Bael*, Focalor, Amon*, Gorson*, Machalas, Moloch*, Bileth, Neabaz, Barbatos, Adonides, Buer*, Rimmon
32 – 126-132 – Chamo, Herodias, Phongor, Zagum
33 – 132-138 – Geryon, Adramalech, Bune, Morax
34 – 138-144 - Bifrons

That gives us 7 in the 20-24 HD range, 27 in the 25-29 HD range, and 26 in the 30-34 HD range.  However, note that any lord with a * falls on the edge of moving up to the next range; I left all of these on the lower range with the potential for moving up.  Personally, I nominate at least Moloch and Amon to go up to 32-HD.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2007)

That looks doable.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2007)

Other noteworthy archdevil traits (based on FCII avatar versions):


SR = 13 + CR
Languages:  Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal; telepathy 100 ft.
Dark Speech feat
Regeneration (5 for CR 19-21, 6 for toughest CR 21 and all CR 22, 8 for CR 23-24)
DR 20/good and silver

Regeneration (Ex): Good weapons, and spells and effects with the good descriptor, deal normal damage to archdevil. If archdevil loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. Archdevil can reaattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

Standard devil traits:


Immunity to fire and poison.
Resistance to acid 10 and cold 10.
See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.
Summon (Sp): Baatezu share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of baatezu summoned are noted in each monster description).
Telepathy. 
Except where otherwise noted, devils speak Infernal, Celestial, and Draconic.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

that sounds like a good point to start from; might as well standardize all of that.  anything you'd care to add from the BoVD stats?

as i was looking through the Dragon 75 & 76 dukes, i noted that all, or nearly all of them had a fear ability - by touch, gaze, or aura (and i think one even had a breath weapon!), but we can handle those individually when the time comes.  nearly all were given a summoning power.  i think all had SLAs of course, as well - though the lists are likely to need to grow.  do you have a comparative list of SLAs common to devils and archdevils?

i was also thinking we should probably also have an ability score array for these guys to make things even easier - maybe add one point per HD to give the tougher guys an even edge.    that, and/or +1 / 4 HD.  we should figure out what that needs to be, to be comparable to other archdevils.


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## Garnfellow (Feb 23, 2007)

I think we had developed some standard archdevil abilities based on the BoVD in an earlier thread . . . something like "Statting Epic Level Fiends"?


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 23, 2007)

yes, i recall that thread, but i haven't had a look at it in awhile.


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## Grazzt (Feb 24, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i was also thinking we should probably also have an ability score array for these guys to make things even easier - maybe add one point per HD to give the tougher guys an even edge.    that, and/or +1 / 4 HD.  we should figure out what that needs to be, to be comparable to other archdevils.




Cool thread. Thanks for the heads up Boz-man.

Just my 2-cents. I would set up an array for use when doing these guys. The 3e DDG book used an array for the gods, and IIRC I added up the ability scores for the demons and devils in BoVD and they were fairly close as well (unless Im remember wrong).

I did use an array for the demons/devils in Tome 1, 2, and 3. (And likely will do so in Tome 4 should we 100% green light that project).


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2007)

thanks scott.    take your coat off and stick around for awhile.  



			
				Garnfellow said:
			
		

> I think we had developed some standard archdevil abilities based on the BoVD in an earlier thread . . . something like "Statting Epic Level Fiends"?




http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=68129

not sure how useful it will be, since that was over 3 years ago.    well, there is some useful stuff on page 2 actually (and a little more on p3).

it did remind me of AC bonuses though.  looking through FC2, i see that most of the aspects have +5 deflection bonuses, and many have armor or shield bonuses.  in BoVD, they all had insight bonuses, while Bel had a deflection bonuses, and Dispater has a shield bonuses.  naturally (heh), all should have natural AC bonuses, but we should figure out how that is determined.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2007)

Hi Scott!    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it did remind me of AC bonuses though.  looking through FC2, i see that most of the aspects have +5 deflection bonuses, and many have armor or shield bonuses.  in BoVD, they all had insight bonuses, while Bel had a deflection bonuses, and Dispater has a shield bonuses.  naturally (heh), all should have natural AC bonuses, but we should figure out how that is determined.




Note that in FCII, those deflection bonuses are attributed to most of them possessing rings of protection.    

Many also have cloaks of resistance.

Belial also has an amulet of natural armor, which does nothing for him since he already has a natural armor bonus.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2007)

whaaaat!  well we're ignoring that .


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## Grazzt (Feb 25, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> whaaaat!  well we're ignoring that .




 If ya wanna ignore it, give them a deflection bonus (or whatever) based on their Charisma modifier/bonus. That's how I did it in Tome. (Doesnt jive with the 'official' stuff I guess...but seemed to make sense at the time...to me anyway)


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## Knight Otu (Feb 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Belial also has an amulet of natural armor, which does nothing for him since he already has a natural armor bonus.



An amulet of natural armor does stack* with existing natural armor.  I've got no real input at this time, but since I'm not subscribed to this thread, I'll poke my head in from time to time.

*Technically, it increases the bonus. It grants an enhancement bonus to the natural armor bonus.


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> If ya wanna ignore it, give them a deflection bonus (or whatever) based on their Charisma modifier/bonus. That's how I did it in Tome. (Doesnt jive with the 'official' stuff I guess...but seemed to make sense at the time...to me anyway)




either that, or an insight bonus equal to Wis mod (kind of like they have in BoVD, but not exactly).  i'll be fine with either.

that, and we need a mechanic to determine what the natural armor should be (again, to make it easier on us later).  1/2 HD might be a good number, for example.  maybe that plus Con mod?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> An amulet of natural armor does stack* with existing natural armor.  I've got no real input at this time, but since I'm not subscribed to this thread, I'll poke my head in from time to time.
> 
> *Technically, it increases the bonus. It grants an enhancement bonus to the natural armor bonus.




Well I'll be...you learn something new every day.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> either that, or an insight bonus equal to Wis mod (kind of like they have in BoVD, but not exactly).  i'll be fine with either.




I'm fine with the insight bonus, since the Demonomicon versions of the archfiends retain it.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that, and we need a mechanic to determine what the natural armor should be (again, to make it easier on us later).  1/2 HD might be a good number, for example.  maybe that plus Con mod?




I'm not sure if a formula was used for any of the others, so I'm not convinced we need to get locked into one here.  It might be best just to "eyeball" it on an individual basis.

For ability score arrays, here's how the others look, by CR:

*CR 19*
Fierna: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37

*CR 20*
Pit Fiend: Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26
Aspect of Bel:  Str 38, Dex 15, Con 30, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25
Bel:  Str 40, Dex 16, Con 32, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25

*CR 21*
Belial: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37
Aspect of Dispater: Str 37, Dex 14, Con 35, Int 29, Wis 22, Cha 29
Aspect of Levistus: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 29, Int 25, Wis 32, Cha 27
Aspect of Mammon: Str 34, Dex 15, Con 33, Int 28, Wis 29, Cha 25

*CR 22*
Aspect of Glasya: Str 27, Dex 34, Con 27, Int 27, Wis 28, Cha 36
Geryon: Str 36, Dex 19, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 23
Hag Countess: Str 31, Dex 26, Con 24, Int 28, Wis 31, Cha 28

*CR 23*
Aspect of Baalzebul: Str 39, Dex 13, Con 34, Int 28, Wis 27, Cha 25

*CR 24*
Aspect of Mephistopheles: Str 25, Dex 27, Con 26, Int 27, Wis 31, Cha 28
Belial: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39
Fierna: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39

*CR 25*
Mammon: Str 36, Dex 17, Con 35, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 27
Levistus: Str 26, Dex 26, Con 31, Int 27, Wis 34, Cha 29

*CR 26*
Dispater: Str 39, Dex 16, Con 37, Int 31, Wis 24, Cha 31


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm fine with the insight bonus, since the Demonomicon versions of the archfiends retain it.




good deal - that'll keep it simple.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if a formula was used for any of the others, so I'm not convinced we need to get locked into one here.  It might be best just to "eyeball" it on an individual basis.




OK then, to make it easy, maybe we could come up with a chart based on "if it's 1E AC was X, then it's 3E AC should be X" (with some slight adjustment based on CR?) and just assign nat armor based on what is left over given the devil's other modifiers.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For ability score arrays, here's how the others look, by CR:




OK, i'll have a look at that to see if i can guess a pattern.

obviously, that's a lot heftier than the elite array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8

by the same token, it's weaker than the deity array, which per the Deities and Demigods FAQ is 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, along with 1 ability point per divine rank, and the usual 1 ability point per four class levels, and any applicable racial adjustments.

happy medium perhaps?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK then, to make it easy, maybe we could come up with a chart based on "if it's 1E AC was X, then it's 3E AC should be X" (with some slight adjustment based on CR?) and just assign nat armor based on what is left over given the devil's other modifiers.




That could work.    




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, i'll have a look at that to see if i can guess a pattern.
> 
> obviously, that's a lot heftier than the elite array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
> 
> ...




Hmmm...in the past when we converted unique entities, didn't we just determine the ability score total points available, and then divide as we saw fit?   That might work better than attempting an array, unless we can determine the pattern.


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

yes, i was going to do that.  i don't have FC2 in front of me, so could you look at the aspects and see what their scores add up to (minus the 1/4 HD thing that is)?  i'll do the same with the BoVD lords and we'll see what we come up with.  if we don't see a pattern, we could do it the other way, although with 60 lords to work on an easier method like an array will help.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> *CR 20*
> Bel:  Str 40, Dex 16, Con 32, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25




here's what i mean.  that adds up to 167.  he has 26-HD, which means he would get 6 points from HD, so minus that and you have 161.  if we do the math and come up with numbers that are reasonably close, we can establish an array.  if they're all over the place, we'll have to do something else.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Here are the straight totals, not considering the 1/4 HD thing:

CR 19
Fierna: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37 = 164

CR 20
Pit Fiend: Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26 = 169
Aspect of Bel: Str 38, Dex 15, Con 30, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25 = 162
Bel: Str 40, Dex 16, Con 32, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25 = 167

CR 21
Belial: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37 = 164
Aspect of Dispater: Str 37, Dex 14, Con 35, Int 29, Wis 22, Cha 29 = 166
Aspect of Levistus: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 29, Int 25, Wis 32, Cha 27 = 161
Aspect of Mammon: Str 34, Dex 15, Con 33, Int 28, Wis 29, Cha 25 = 164

CR 22
Aspect of Glasya: Str 27, Dex 34, Con 27, Int 27, Wis 28, Cha 36 = 179
Geryon: Str 36, Dex 19, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 23 = 163
Hag Countess: Str 31, Dex 26, Con 24, Int 28, Wis 31, Cha 28 = 168

CR 23
Aspect of Baalzebul: Str 39, Dex 13, Con 34, Int 28, Wis 27, Cha 25 = 166

CR 24
Aspect of Mephistopheles: Str 25, Dex 27, Con 26, Int 27, Wis 31, Cha 28 = 164
Belial: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39 = 176
Fierna: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39 = 176

CR 25
Mammon: Str 36, Dex 17, Con 35, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 27 = 176
Levistus: Str 26, Dex 26, Con 31, Int 27, Wis 34, Cha 29 = 173

CR 26
Dispater: Str 39, Dex 16, Con 37, Int 31, Wis 24, Cha 31 = 178


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

OK, going straight through factoring in the 1/4 HD thing on each of the BoVD lords:

Bel 161
Dispater 170
Mammon 168
Belial/Fierna 168
Levistus 165
Hag 160
Baalzebul 169
Mephistopheles 167
Asmodeus 179

so, you see that (with the exception of Big A, who we might as well throw out as a "special case") they are all within 10 of each other.  i don't see any reason why we can't do an array, with the total number somewhere in the 160s.

here's an interesting observation.  a quick comparison between Bel, Dispater, Mammon, Levistus, and their aspects reveals that the stats are the same, just a little bit lower for the aspects - almost, but not quite, just minus the HD adjustment!

want to know something interesting?  the divine array adds up to 160.    we could just use that, though i'd like to tweak it a bit, since with 24 being the low number and people like Mammon, Dispater, and Bel having a score below 20, i'd like to see some room for variation.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

CR 20: Pit fiend (18 HD), Aspect of Bel (22 HD), Bel (26 HD)
CR 21: Aspect of Belial (30 HD), Aspect of Dispater (28 HD), Aspect of Levistus (25 HD),
Aspect of Mammon (28 HD)
CR 22: Aspect of Glasya (28 HD), Geryon (30 HD), The Hag Countess (33 HD)
CR 23: Aspect of Baalzebul (30 HD)
CR 24: Aspect of Mephistopheles (30 HD), Belial (36 HD), Fierna (36 HD)
CR 25: Mammon (34 HD), Levistus (33 HD)
CR 26: Dispater (34 HD)

CR 19
Fierna: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37 = 164 (28 HD = 6 ability increases)

CR 20
Pit Fiend: Str 37, Dex 27, Con 27, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 26 = 169 
Aspect of Bel: Str 38, Dex 15, Con 30, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25 = 162 (22 HD = 4 ability increases)
Bel: Str 40, Dex 16, Con 32, Int 27, Wis 27, Cha 25 = 167 (26 HD = 5 ability increases)

CR 21
Aspect of Belial: Str 27, Dex 23, Con 25, Int 26, Wis 26, Cha 37 = 164 (30 HD = 6 ability increases)
Aspect of Dispater: Str 37, Dex 14, Con 35, Int 29, Wis 22, Cha 29 = 166 (28 HD = 6 ability increases)
Aspect of Levistus: Str 24, Dex 24, Con 29, Int 25, Wis 32, Cha 27 = 161 (25 HD = 5 ability increases)
Aspect of Mammon: Str 34, Dex 15, Con 33, Int 28, Wis 29, Cha 25 = 164 (28 HD = 6 ability increases)

CR 22
Aspect of Glasya: Str 27, Dex 34, Con 27, Int 27, Wis 28, Cha 36 = 179 (28 HD = 6 ability increases)
Geryon: Str 36, Dex 19, Con 35, Int 26, Wis 24, Cha 23 = 163 (30 HD = 6 ability increases)
Hag Countess: Str 31, Dex 26, Con 24, Int 28, Wis 31, Cha 28 = 168 (33 HD = 7 ability increases)


CR 23
Aspect of Baalzebul: Str 39, Dex 13, Con 34, Int 28, Wis 27, Cha 25 = 166 (30 HD = 6 ability increases)

CR 24
Aspect of Mephistopheles: Str 25, Dex 27, Con 26, Int 27, Wis 31, Cha 28 = 164 (30 HD = 6 ability increases)
Belial: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39 = 176 (36 HD = 8 ability increases)
Fierna: Str 29, Dex 25, Con 27, Int 28, Wis 28, Cha 39 = 176 (36 HD = 8 ability increases)

CR 25
Mammon: Str 36, Dex 17, Con 35, Int 30, Wis 31, Cha 27 = 176 (34 HD = 7 ability increases)
Levistus: Str 26, Dex 26, Con 31, Int 27, Wis 34, Cha 29 = 173 (33 HD = 7 ability increases)

CR 26
Dispater: Str 39, Dex 16, Con 37, Int 31, Wis 24, Cha 31 = 178 (34 HD = 7 ability increases)


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Ahhh, duplicating effort.    

We can use the array as a baseline, with some liberal "take 3 off this one and add it to this one" type of adjustments.

It's funny (and a bit satisfying) that the divine array is worse than the archfiend array.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

the refresh button is your friend.  

anyway, yeah, that might be a good way to keep it simple.  with as many as Baalzebul, Mammon, Dispater, and Bel having a score under 20, i'm almost tempted to say go with something more like 35, 30, 29, 26, 24, 16 and then let the chips fall where they may (with liberal borrowing as we see fit), but if you want we could stick with the divine array and just borrow *very* liberally when we want scores under 20.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

We can give it a try.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

OK, let's get some work in on total AC per CR.  without looking, i'm sure most of the 1E ACs fell somewhere in the -4 to 2 range; i'll have a look and compare what they really were.  like with the HD, we can set approximate numbers now (maybe fudging them later) and determine natural armor based on subtracting all the other modifiiers.

i'll look those 1E ACs up and post them ASAP.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

OK, don't know if i accomplished a whole ton doing that, but...    let's see, they all had negative ACs, of at least -1; Asmo had -7, Meph has -6, and Baalzebul has -5, and everyone else has -4 or worse, so there's really not a ton of variance there.  we might be best off to simply compare total ACs per HD/CR and go with that, using whether they had a -1, -2, -3, or -4 to determine if they should be a little better or worse than average.  

given that nearly all of these guys will be CR 21-25, what ACs are we likely to be shooting for?


_(Tiamat)_
Amduscias - -2
Malphas - -3

Nergal - -2
Bist - -2
Caim - -1
Armaros - -1
Azazel - -2
Cahor - -1
Dagon - -1
Duskur - -4
Kochibel - -3
Malarea - -1
Nisroch - -1
Rumjal - -2

_Dispater_ - -2
Lilis - -1
Titivilus - -2
Arioch - -4
Biffant - -1
Merodach - -2
Alocer - -2
Bitru - -1

_Mammon_ - -3
Bael - -3
_Glasya_ - -2
Focalor - -3
Caarcrinolaas - -3
Melchon - -2

_Belial_ - -4
Naome - -2
Chamo - -1
Balan - -3
Bathym - -2
Gaziel - -2

Geryon - -3
Cozbi - -1
Amon - -2
Gorson - -2
Herodias - -2
Agares - -1
Machalas - -2

Moloch - -3
Lilith - -1
Tartach - -2
Bileth - -3

_Baalzebul_ - -5
Baftis - -1
Neabaz - -3
Barbatos - -3
Abigor - -2
Zepar - -3

_Mephistopheles_ - -6
Baalphegor - -2
Hutijin - -4
Bele - -3
Adonides - -2
Barbas - -3
Bifrons - -3

_Asmodeus_ - -7
Bensozia - -2
Adramalech - -1
Phongor - -1
Buer - -2
Bune - -3
Morax - -3
Rimmon - -4
Zagum - -2


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

CR 19
Aspect of Fierna: 41 (+6 Dex, +14 natural, +6 armor, +5 deflection)

CR 20
Pit Fiend: 40 (–1 size, +8 Dex, +23 natural)
Aspect of Bel: 39 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +20 natural, +4 armor, +4 deflection)
Bel: 42 (–1 size, +3 Dex, +5 deflection, +15 insight, +20 natural),

CR 21
Aspect of Belial: 43 (+6 Dex, +22 natural, +2 armor, +3 deflection)
Aspect of Dispater: 44 (+2 Dex, +25 natural, +7 shield) 
Aspect of Levistus: 42 (+7 Dex, +15 natural, +5 armor, +5 deflection)
Aspect of Mammon: 41 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +22 natural, +4 armor, +5 deflection)

CR 22
Aspect of Glasya: 46 (-1 size, +12 Dex, +20 natural, +5 deflection)
Geryon: 40 (–2 size, +4 Dex, +11 insight, +17 natural)
Hag Countess: 42 (+8 Dex, +6 insight, +18 natural)

CR 23
Aspect of Baalzebul: 47 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +38 natural)

CR 24
Aspect of Mephistopheles: 47 (-1 size, +8 Dex, +23 natural, +2 armor, +5 deflection)
Belial: 40 (+7 Dex, +6 insight, +17 natural)
Fierna: 40 (+7 Dex, +6 insight, +17 natural)

CR 25
Mammon: 44 (–2 size, +3 Dex, +11 insight, +22 natural)
Levistus: 40 (+8 Dex, +7 insight, +15 natural)

CR 26
Dispater: 44 (+2 Dex, +25 natural, +7 shield)


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Well, that does jump around a bit… but that’s OK.  How about this for the simplest solution I could come up with.    we go AC = CR +20, minus the fiend’s 1E AC.    for example, if Amon turns out to be CR 24, his AC will be 46 (24 +20 +2).

if that’s just a bit much, we could bring it down to CR +18 minus 1E AC (which would give some of the weaker consorts say AC 41), or we could even bring that down to 16 or even lower if need be.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

While we're compiling things, here are how the magical weaponry of the archfiends and their avatars break down by CR. This might help us determine if we need to add some properties or plusses to some of the Dukes' weaponry.

CR 19
Aspect of Fierna: Natural weaponry

CR 20
Pit Fiend: Natural weaponry
Aspect of Bel: +3 flaming greatsword 
Bel: +3 flaming greatsword 

CR 21
Aspect of Belial: +3 fleshgrinding vile ranseur
Aspect of Dispater: Dispater's rod (+5 heavy mace)
Aspect of Levistus: +4 wounding cold iron rapier
Aspect of Mammon: +4 unholy cold iron shortspear

CR 22
Aspect of Glasya: +3 keen scourge of speed 
Geryon: Natural weaponry
Hag Countess: +5 bloodfeeding flaming greatsword

CR 23
Aspect of Baalzebul: Natural weaponry

CR 24
Aspect of Mephistopheles: +5 flaming burst icy burst ranseur
Belial: +4 ranseur 
Fierna: Flame blade (supernatural ability)

CR 25
Mammon: +4 shortspear
Levistus: +4 rapier 

CR 26
Dispater: Dispater's rod (+6 heavy mace)


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, that does jump around a bit… but that’s OK.  How about this for the simplest solution I could come up with.    we go AC = CR +20, minus the fiend’s 1E AC.    for example, if Amon turns out to be CR 24, his AC will be 46 (24 +20 +2).
> 
> if that’s just a bit much, we could bring it down to CR +18 minus 1E AC (which would give some of the weaker consorts say AC 41), or we could even bring that down to 16 or even lower if need be.




We could use that as a baseline, and tone it down based on a high Dex, armor or shield use, etc. to keep it within the target range (AC 40-45, most likely).


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

yeah, i think we can stick with CR +18 - 1E AC.    that should, if i'm looking at it right, put almost all of them in the AC 40-45 range.  take that number, subtract Dex mod, insight bonus, and any armor etc that they are using, and that gives us our Natural AC.  sounds good?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> While we're compiling things, here are how the magical weaponry of the archfiends and their avatars break down by CR. This might help us determine if we need to add some properties or plusses to some of the Dukes' weaponry.




that would probably have to be case-by-case, but good thing you posted it.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, i think we can stick with CR +18 - 1E AC.    that should, if i'm looking at it right, put almost all of them in the AC 40-45 range.  take that number, subtract Dex mod, insight bonus, and any armor etc that they are using, and that gives us our Natural AC.  sounds good?




Sounds good.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

OK, so, let’s get a quick recap to see how we’re looking and see what else we’re missing.

Hit Dice: Chart will determine how the HD converts, characters with * have a chance to “move up” one.
Armor Class: All will have insight bonus equal to Wis score.  Total AC will be equal to CR +18 – 1E AC (which, of course, are all negative numbers).  AC minus Dex mod, insight bonus, bonus from items, and misc bonuses = Natural AC bonus.
Also will have a natural armor bonus, to be determined by subtracting …
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, summon devils
Special Qualities: DR 20/good and silver, regeneration (5-8?), immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR,  telepathy 100 ft.
Abilities: We will use the divine array of 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, plus adding one ability point per four Hit Dice, and borrowing liberally as we see fit.  Many lords will end up with one score under 20.

Challenge Rating: Will be determined on an individual basis once completed.  Most will be between 21-25.
Treasure: Quadruple standard except special cases?

Languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal.

Regeneration (Ex): Good weapons, and spells and effects with the good descriptor, deal normal damage to archdevil. If archdevil loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. Archdevil can reaattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Armor Class: All will have insight bonus equal to Wis score.




On second thought, I double-checked, and Pazuzu is the lone Demonomicon entry to get an insight bonus.  Maybe we should skip this, as it appears to be dropped in 3.5 overall, and Paz may be an anomoly/carryover from 3E.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Treasure: Quadruple standard except special cases?




Triple at most; double may suffice.  They should have less resources than archdevils, IMHO.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal.




Plus others, when appropriate.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

hmm, well, i don't like the "hey, they all get a deflection bonus from using items!" cop-out, so, eh, what the hell, we'll give 'em straight up natural armor for now.  if we find that something works better as we work on them, we can always change it.  so, in the interest of having all this neat information at the top of a page, and since the default is 40...


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Formula for a Duke of Hell:

Hit Dice: Chart will determine how the HD converts, characters with * have a chance to “move up” one.
Armor Class: Total AC will be equal to CR +18 – 1E AC (which, of course, are all negative numbers).  AC minus Dex mod, bonus from items, and misc bonuses = Natural AC bonus.
Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, summon devils
Special Qualities: DR 20/good and silver, regeneration (5-8?), immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR,  telepathy 100 ft.
Abilities: We will use the divine array of 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, plus adding one ability point per four Hit Dice, and borrowing liberally as we see fit.  Many lords will end up with one score under 20.

Challenge Rating: Will be determined on an individual basis once completed.  Most will be between 21-25.
Treasure: Double or triple standard as appropriate

Languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, plus more as appropriate.

Regeneration (Ex): Good weapons, and spells and effects with the good descriptor, deal normal damage to ARCH. If ARCH loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. ARCH can reaattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Also, FWIW, all the aspects except Levistus have some sort of aura, and the majority have a fear aura as follows:

Fear Aura (Su): At the end of each of BEING's turns, creatures within 20 feet of him must succed on a DC X Will save or become panicked for 10 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by BEING's fear aura for 24 hours.

Do you want to gather up common skills and feats?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

yes, on the skills & feats.  and SLAs for that matter.

as for the fear aura, i was noting that nearly all the major devils had a fear power - some were an aura, some were by touch, some by gaze, i think i even saw one that had it as a breath weapon.   i'd prefer to handle that on a case-by-case basis, but obviously powers that work the same way can be handled similarly.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

I'll start scouring the feats and skills, and the SLAs after that if you don't compile them in the meantime.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

*Common Feats*

Common:  Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Weapon Focus

Less Common:  Combat Reflexes, Dilate Aura, Negotiator, Spring Attack, Violate Spell-Like Ability

Uncommon:  Ability Focus, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Vile Natural Attack


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## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

when we're ready, we'll start with Avernus.  since there are so many dukes on that layer, we can break it up into 2 parts as follows.  Amduscias and Malphas (Tiamat's dukes), as well as outcasts Nergal, Bist, and Caim from Dragon #75, as well as Moloch, Amon, and Herodias who are now outcasts as well - these 8 will be part 1 of Avernus.  the other 9 outcast dukes from Dragon #91 will be part 2.  sounds good?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> *Common Feats*
> 
> Common:  Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Weapon Focus
> 
> ...




sorry to interrupt.    OK, so we'll take this list primarily into concern with each duke, before thinking about what other feats would make sense for each one.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

*Common Skills*

Note that skills in *bold * are taken by the majority of archdevils.

Appraise = mid to high ranks
Balance = low to mid ranks when used
Bluff = usually max ranks
Climb = high to max ranks when used
*Concentration * = mid to high ranks
*Diplomacy  * = usually max ranks
Disguise = high ranks or synergy only 
Escape Artist = few ranks 
Gather Information = mid to high ranks when used
*Hide * = mid to high ranks
*Intimidate * = high to max ranks
*Jump * = mid to high ranks 
*Knowledge (arcana) * = high to max ranks 
Knowledge (history) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (nobility and royalty) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (religion) = high to max ranks
*Knowledge (the planes)* = high to max ranks
Listen = high to max ranks
Move Silently = mid to high ranks
Search = mid to high ranks
*Sense Motive* = high to max ranks
*Spellcraft* = high to max ranks
Spot = high to max ranks
Survival = synergy only
Tumble = high to max ranks 
Use Rope = synergy only


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> when we're ready, we'll start with Avernus.  since there are so many dukes on that layer, we can break it up into 2 parts as follows.  Amduscias and Malphas (Tiamat's dukes), as well as outcasts Nergal, Bist, and Caim from Dragon #75, as well as Moloch, Amon, and Herodias who are now outcasts as well - these 8 will be part 1 of Avernus.  the other 9 outcast dukes from Dragon #91 will be part 2.  sounds good?




Sounds good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> sorry to interrupt.    OK, so we'll take this list primarily into concern with each duke, before thinking about what other feats would make sense for each one.




No problem.    

Back to work...


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> *Jump * = mid to high ranks




interesting!  the other bolded ones make sense, but i'm not so sure i get this one.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

*Common Spell-Like Abilities*

All have...
  At will—dispel magic/greater dispel magic, greater teleport;

Most have:
  At will—charm monster, major image, see invisibility/true seeing, suggestion, wall of fire;

Many have:
  At will—fireball, wall of fire;
  Unholy aura (3/day or 1/day)

Others used more than once:  dominate person, dominate monster, fire storm, geas/quest, hellfire storm, hold monster, locate creature, locate object, meteor swarm, polymorph, scrying/greater scrying, unholy blight


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> interesting!  the other bolded ones make sense, but i'm not so sure i get this one.




Nor do I, since many can fly.   :\

Ironically, Mammon, Baalzebul, and Dispater, who all cannot fly, lack the skill.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Feb 26, 2007)

well, i can certainly see why Mammon and Baalzebul don't jump - given their anatomy - maybe Dispater is too dignified to jump.  

oh well, whatever, we can assume that anyone with an anatomy suited to Jumping would probably take the skill.


----------



## Shade (Feb 26, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> well, i can certainly see why Mammon and Baalzebul don't jump - given their anatomy - maybe Dispater is too dignified to jump.
> 
> oh well, whatever, we can assume that anyone with an anatomy suited to Jumping would probably take the skill.




I'd vote that if they have a flight speed, and we need ranks elsewhere, that's the first place that gets cut.


----------



## BOZ (Feb 27, 2007)

that's no problem for me.    really, i'm not concerned about Jump at all - if you like, we can just reserve it for those whom it would seem to make the most sense.


----------



## Shade (Feb 27, 2007)

Cool.  Anything else we need before we begin?


----------



## BOZ (Feb 27, 2007)

to finish at least the bloodsipper.


----------



## Knight Otu (Feb 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Nor do I, since many can fly.   :\
> 
> Ironically, Mammon, Baalzebul, and Dispater, who all cannot fly, lack the skill.



Maybe it's for the headstart?   I seem to recall that the Dragonlance book had a rule to that effect (and I seem to recall that wingspan may be an issue for some fiends, too). However, Jump is usually a good skill to cut for flyers, as most people won't bother with having them jump.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 6, 2007)

Just a thought. What do the Jump checks look like without the +4 bonus per 10 feet of land speed? Was that already taken into account. Also, Jump may have Tumble synergy


----------



## Shade (Mar 6, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Just a thought. What do the Jump checks look like without the +4 bonus per 10 feet of land speed? Was that already taken into account. Also, Jump may have Tumble synergy




I checked that, hoping it was the case, but most weren't particularly speedy on land, and few had ranks in Tumble.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

oh well, i'm not particularly worried about giving them ranks in Jump.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 7, 2007)

Lol. I figured you'd look, but just to make sure...

Either way, yeah, I'm not overly concerned with Jump either, and we can probably use that as a fallback to dump points in if we have some unassigned skill points left over. (Not that I believe one can ever HAVE left over skill points...)

Is there any thoughts on using the Book of Fiends (Green Ronin) as a  resource for this?

I'm thinking no, but just to cover all bases.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

i wouldn't know, as i have no experience with them.  but probably not, regardless.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 7, 2007)

Well, only in a few cases are there any crossover, and if there is, I'll type in the statistical info. I think there may only be one or two actual crossover arch fiends.

And, of course, that stats are OGC...


----------



## BOZ (Mar 7, 2007)

thanks.  

look for things to get started in this thread tomorrow or Friday.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

are you ready?  here it comes.  

first of all, one last thing i was noticing today - Intelligence.  the only ability score that most creatures in 1E/2E got.  it looks like most if not all of the Dukes have Exceptional, Genius, or Supra-Genius.  i won't set any solid guidelines for that, other than to say Exceptional would give them a more-or-less average score for these guys, Genius would be notably better, and Supra-Genius would be definitely high.  if we come across any that have less than Exceptional, their Int would have to be about as low as we can go with the array.  

Str is also a score that is hinted at with some of these guys.  one way you'll see it is on the damage line (By weapon +5 for example), so we'll know in those cases to give them a higher Str score. other than that, we'll wing the ability scores based on the descriptions.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Good things to keep in mind.   Let's get this show on the road!


----------



## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

*AVERNUS*

OK, as discussed earlier, we'll be working one layer at a time, from Avernus to Nessus, converting the lords of each layer as a batch before posting a batch on the Creature Catalog site.

given the large number of lords (due to the presence of the outcast dukes, the "rabble of devilkind"), Avernus will be broken down into two batches.  the first batch will consist of the ones detailed in Dragon 75, which includes the two who serve Tiamat (Amduscias and Malphas), and three of the outcast dukes (Nergal, Bist, and Caim), plus two lords who were banished from Geryon's court after he was deposed (Amon and Herodias), as well as the former Lord of the Nine, Moloch, all in that order.  why Moloch last?  well, that's called building suspense.  

the second batch for Avernus will feature the outcast dukes detailed in Dragon #91: Armaros, Azazel, Cahor, Dagon, Duskur, Kochibel, Malarea, Nisroch, and Rumjal.  each one is an interesting character in his or her own right.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

*AMDUSCIAS (Duke of Hell)*

FREQUENCY: Unique (very rare)
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: See below
HIT DICE: 92 hit points
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: See below
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 65%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
SIZE: See below
PSIONIC ABILITY: 216
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Amduscias is a duke in the service of Tiamat, ruler of Avernus, and leads 29 companies of abishai. He is a being of long memory and cunning strategies. He can shape change at will into a dirty yellow unicorn with eyes of flame and a purple horn, a hawk-headed man (he usually wears dark red or black robes when in this form), or his favored form: a wolf with a prehensile, constricting serpent’s tail. He does not need, and does not wear, armor in any of his forms.

When in unicorn form, Amduscias attacks with his horn (acts as a sword of wounding, for 2-9 damage), or his hooves (2 per round, for 2-10 damage each). His maximum movement rate in this form is 18”; he can “bolt” from a standing start, and some say that when horses spook or gallop uncontrollably, it is because Amduscias has affected them.

In human-like form Amduscias has average dexterity, and two or three attacks (fists for 1-2 each and beak for 1-8, or weapon and beak). Amduscias is ambidextrous and can wield two weapons if they are small (e.g., daggers or darts). This devil has above average strength when in human-like form, and a long, curved beak somewhat like a hummingbird’s in appearance. This beak is, however, terrifically strong and sharp. His move in this form is 12”.

Amduscias prefers to fight in wolf form; his movement rate is 18”, and he attacks with two raking foreclaws and his jaws, or his hind claws and tail. If in a position to do so, he can use all six of these attacks in a round, against as many targets. The claws do 3-12 damage each, the jaws 1-20, and the tail 1-10 constriction damage per round plus additional damage if Amduscias uses it to immerse a held victim in water, batter a victim against a rock, etc. The tail will loosen its grip if it is severed, or if it is dealt 17 points of damage in any single round or 26 points of damage over a succession of rounds.

Amduscias can change forms in one round (during which he can do nothing else except speak), and is restricted to the forms described. He can use the spell-like powers listed below, one at a time, once per round. Note that (as with other devils) verbal, somatic, and material components - as spell-casters on the Prime Material Plane know them - are not necessary. Amduscias. spell-like powers are: pyrotechnics, produce flame, fire shield (either version), detect invisibility, detect lie, read magic, locate object, dispel magic, telekinesis (5,000 g.p. maximum weight), find familiar (for another being; the familiar will be an imp), and faerie fire. Amduscias can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) in anyone within 3” he points at (but only one target per round). Once per day he can use a symbol of stunning.

Amduscias is sometimes called the “Reconciliator of Foes,” because he is a skillful actor and negotiator, and Tiamat often employs him to mediate in disputes between devils or her kin. While in any of his forms, Amduscias can speak and understand perfectly any language (cf. tongues spell). When encountered, Amduscias will only have treasure with him if he is in his human-like form; if so, it may be of any type. Amduscias regenerates 2 hit points per round. He can summon (with a 70% chance of success) 1-3 abishai at will.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> He can shape change at will into a dirty yellow unicorn with eyes of flame and a purple horn, a hawk-headed man (he usually wears dark red or black robes when in this form), or his favored form: a wolf with a prehensile, constricting serpent’s tail.




Alternate form.  More on that later.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> He does not need, and does not wear, armor in any of his forms.




No armor bonus for him!    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> In human-like form Amduscias has average dexterity...Amduscias is ambidextrous and can wield two weapons if they are small (e.g., daggers or darts).




Oxymoron?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Amduscias. spell-like powers are: pyrotechnics, produce flame, fire shield (either version), detect invisibility, detect lie, read magic, locate object, dispel magic, telekinesis (5,000 g.p. maximum weight), find familiar (for another being; the familiar will be an imp), and faerie fire. Amduscias can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) in anyone within 3” he points at (but only one target per round). Once per day he can use a symbol of stunning.




Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level Xth)
  At will—discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, telekinesis (5,000 g.p. maximum weight, DC X);
  1/day—symbol of stunning (DC X).

And of course we'll add some of the common SLAs for unique devils.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Amduscias is sometimes called the “Reconciliator of Foes,” because he is a skillful actor and negotiator, and Tiamat often employs him to mediate in disputes between devils or her kin.




Good ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Perform (acting)?

Negotiator feat?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> While in any of his forms, Amduscias can speak and understand perfectly any language (cf. tongues spell). When encountered, Amduscias will only have treasure with him if he is in his human-like form; if so, it may be of any type. Amduscias regenerates 2 hit points per round. He can summon (with a 70% chance of success) 1-3 abishai at will.




Well, we've got our regeneration amount.    

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Amduscias can attempt to summon 1d3 abishai (of any color) with a 70% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell (CL Xth).

Tongues.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Alternate form.  More on that later.




which sounds the most like his natural form? the wolf?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> No armor bonus for him!




nope, but probably high nat armor to make up for it.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Oxymoron?




not necessarily.  but how high of a dex do you need for TWF in 3E?  (i could look it up, but i'm lazy at the moment)  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level Xth)
> At will—discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, telekinesis (5,000 g.p. maximum weight, DC X);
> 1/day—symbol of stunning (DC X).
> 
> And of course we'll add some of the common SLAs for unique devils.




we need to figure out how to convert the whole "gp weight" thing from 1E.  you missed this part: "Amduscias can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) in anyone within 3” he points at (but only one target per round)."  since just about all of these guys have some sort of fear power, i wonder if this is an SLA or Su.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Good ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Perform (acting)?
> 
> Negotiator feat?




absolutely!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Well, we've got our regeneration amount.




i don't know about that.  each of these guys has a regen amount listed, and i don't think any of them are above 5.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Amduscias can attempt to summon 1d3 abishai (of any color) with a 70% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell (CL Xth).




good deal.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Tongues.




Su ability?  constant?


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> He can shape change at will into a dirty yellow unicorn with eyes of flame and a purple horn, a hawk-headed man (he usually wears dark red or black robes when in this form), or his favored form: a wolf with a prehensile, constricting serpent’s tail. He does not need, and does not wear, armor in any of his forms.




Alternate Form (Su): Amduscias can shift between his humanoid, unicorn, and wolf forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, he cannot ..., but he can use .... In unicorn form, he cannot ..., but he can use .... In wolf form he cannot ..., but he can use .... 

Amduscias remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Amduscias revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals all forms simultaneously.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> When in unicorn form, Amduscias attacks with his horn (acts as a sword of wounding, for 2-9 damage), or his hooves (2 per round, for 2-10 damage each). His maximum movement rate in this form is 18”; he can “bolt” from a standing start, and some say that when horses spook or gallop uncontrollably, it is because Amduscias has affected them.




Relevant stats from unicorn to modify as we see fit:

Large
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Attack: Horn +11 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: Horn +11 melee (1d8+8) and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 21

Bleeding Wounds (Ex): A wound from a Amduscias's gore attack continues to bleed after the injury was inflicted. Each wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter. Multiple gore wounds result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds deal 2 points of damage per round, and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other healing spell (heal, mass heal, and so on).

Use this?

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of Amduscias at a distance of 30 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> In human-like form Amduscias has average dexterity, and two or three attacks (fists for 1-2 each and beak for 1-8, or weapon and beak). Amduscias is ambidextrous and can wield two weapons if they are small (e.g., daggers or darts). This devil has above average strength when in human-like form, and a long, curved beak somewhat like a hummingbird’s in appearance. This beak is, however, terrifically strong and sharp. His move in this form is 12”.




Two-Weapon Fighting and possibly ITWF or GTWF as feats or bonus feats?

Gains bite attack that deals X damage.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Amduscias prefers to fight in wolf form; his movement rate is 18”, and he attacks with two raking foreclaws and his jaws, or his hind claws and tail. If in a position to do so, he can use all six of these attacks in a round, against as many targets. The claws do 3-12 damage each, the jaws 1-20, and the tail 1-10 constriction damage per round plus additional damage if Amduscias uses it to immerse a held victim in water, batter a victim against a rock, etc. The tail will loosen its grip if it is severed, or if it is dealt 17 points of damage in any single round or 26 points of damage over a succession of rounds.




Should we base this form on a wolf or dire wolf before modifications?


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, we've got our regeneration amount.




Hmm, I'm not so sure actually. Remeber that our 3.5 version will have like 2x the hp so maybe Regen 4 or Regen 5.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> which sounds the most like his natural form? the wolf?




Not needed if we follow the eladrin's example (see above post).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> nope, but probably high nat armor to make up for it.




But of course, especially with "average Dex".



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> not necessarily.  but how high of a dex do you need for TWF in 3E?  (i could look it up, but i'm lazy at the moment)




TWF = 15, ITWF = 17, GTWF = 19



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we need to figure out how to convert the whole "gp weight" thing from 1E.  you missed this part: "Amduscias can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) in anyone within 3” he points at (but only one target per round)."  since just about all of these guys have some sort of fear power, i wonder if this is an SLA or Su.




I'd prefer to go with the fear aura.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't know about that.  each of these guys has a regen amount listed, and i don't think any of them are above 5.






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Hmm, I'm not so sure actually. Remeber that our 3.5 version will have like 2x the hp so maybe Regen 4 or Regen 5.




Good points.  Depending on his CR, I'd go 4 or 5.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Su ability?  constant?




In FCII, they simply relegated it to the languages line.  Here's what eladrins have:

Tongues (Su): All eladrins can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Formula for a Duke of Hell:
> 
> Hit Dice: Chart will determine how the HD converts, characters with * have a chance to “move up” one.




We have him at 26 HD on the chart.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Armor Class: Total AC will be equal to CR +18 – 1E AC (which, of course, are all negative numbers).  AC minus Dex mod, bonus from items, and misc bonuses = Natural AC bonus.




Amduscias - -2



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, summon devils
> Special Qualities: DR 20/good and silver, regeneration (5-8?), immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR,  telepathy 100 ft.




It looks like we said a minimum of 5 for regeneration.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Abilities: We will use the divine array of 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, plus adding one ability point per four Hit Dice, and borrowing liberally as we see fit.  Many lords will end up with one score under 20.




It looks like Cha is his top stat, followed by Str.  Both Dex and Int sound like they should be on the lower end.   I'd probably arrange it like so, before the +1/4 HD adjustment:  Str 28, Dex 24, Con 25, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35. 



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Challenge Rating: Will be determined on an individual basis once completed.  Most will be between 21-25.




He ranks on the fourth "tier" of 13 power rankings determined above, so I'd target him for the high CR 21 to low CR 23 range.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Treasure: Double or triple standard as appropriate




His writeup simply states that he'll have treasure with him in humanoid form, so we could go either way.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, plus more as appropriate.




Since he has tongues, more aren't really needed.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 8, 2007)

No Book of Fiends equivalent. IIRC, there is mention of him in the FC2, Does it say anything else about him???



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like Cha is his top stat, followed by Str. Both Dex and Int sound like they should be on the lower end. I'd probably arrange it like so, before the +1/4 HD adjustment: Str 28, Dex 24, Con 25, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35.




Hmm, and after, I would recommend:

Str 30, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 37

That's a trade of 3:1 for the 9 points of Dex (all going into Str) and the 6 points put as follows:

Con +3
Wis +1
Cha +2


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Use this?
> 
> Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of Amduscias at a distance of 30 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.




i like it!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Two-Weapon Fighting and possibly ITWF or GTWF as feats or bonus feats?




he doesn't have to be a master of fighting with two weapons, but he'd better be at least competent.  we'll see; keep those in mind.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should we base this form on a wolf or dire wolf before modifications?




might as well go dire wolf, although there are clear differences.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd prefer to go with the fear aura.




i wouldn't, actually.    some of these dukes have legimate fear auras, but this guy doesn't.  he either needs to have an SLA, or the Su ability to cause fear in a single target.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> In FCII, they simply relegated it to the languages line.  Here's what eladrins have:
> 
> Tongues (Su): All eladrins can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level 14th). This ability is always active.




i like that better than having it in the langauge line.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like Cha is his top stat, followed by Str.  Both Dex and Int sound like they should be on the lower end.   I'd probably arrange it like so, before the +1/4 HD adjustment:  Str 28, Dex 24, Con 25, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35.




i agree with your assessment.  he has 6 points to spend.  i'd say split 'em between Str and Cha.  or maybe something more like what Gothenem said.  



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> IIRC, there is mention of him in the FC2, Does it say anything else about him???




IIRC, only that he serves Tiamat.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Hmm, and after, I would recommend:
> 
> Str 30, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 37
> 
> ...




although to keep things simple with his feats, i'd add 4 back to his Dex and take 2 each away from two other scores.  either go with this, or what i said above.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Summarizing....

HD: 26

Armor Class: Total AC will be equal to CR +18 – 1E AC (which, of course, are all negative numbers). AC minus Dex mod, bonus from items, and misc bonuses = Natural AC bonus. 
Amduscias -2

Special Attacks: Alternate form, bleeding wounds, spell-like abilities, summon devils

Special Qualities: DR 20/good and silver, regeneration 5+, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR, telepathy 100 ft., tongues, unnatural aura

Ability Scores:  Str 28, Dex 24, Con 25, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35 plus 6 points split between Str and Cha

or 

Str 30, Dex 15, Con 28, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 37, with 4 points put back into Dex from other socres

Feats:  9 (2 can be epic).  Negotiator.  Two-Weapon Fighting and possibly ITWF or GTWF as feats or bonus feats?

Skills:  Good ranks in Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Perform (acting)

Alternate Form (Su): Amduscias can shift between his humanoid, unicorn, and wolf forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, he cannot ..., but he can use .... In unicorn form, he cannot ..., but he can use .... In wolf form he cannot ..., but he can use .... 

Amduscias remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Amduscias revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals all forms simultaneously.

Unicorn form:
Large
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Attack: Horn +11 melee (1d8+8)
Full Attack: Horn +11 melee (1d8+8) and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 21

Human Form:  Gains bite attack that deals X damage.

Wolf Form:  base on dire wolf
Large 
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+10)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Trip
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17
Trip (Ex): A dire wolf that hits with a bite attack can attempt to trip its opponent (+11 check modifier) as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the dire wolf.
Skills: A dire wolf has a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot checks.  
*It also has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.



			
				Dragon said:
			
		

> Amduscias prefers to fight in wolf form; his movement rate is 18”, and he attacks with two raking foreclaws and his jaws, or his hind claws and tail. If in a position to do so, he can use all six of these attacks in a round, against as many targets. The claws do 3-12 damage each, the jaws 1-20, and the tail 1-10 constriction damage per round plus additional damage if Amduscias uses it to immerse a held victim in water, batter a victim against a rock, etc. The tail will loosen its grip if it is severed, or if it is dealt 17 points of damage in any single round or 26 points of damage over a succession of rounds.




Improved grab and constrict?  Rake?

Bleeding Wounds (Ex): A wound from a Amduscias's gore attack continues to bleed after the injury was inflicted. Each wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter. Multiple gore wounds result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds deal 2 points of damage per round, and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other healing spell (heal, mass heal, and so on).

Regeneration (Ex): Good weapons, and spells and effects with the good descriptor, deal normal damage to ARCH. If ARCH loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. ARCH can reaattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level Xth)
At will—discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, telekinesis (5,000 g.p. maximum weight, DC X);
1/day—symbol of stunning (DC X).

And of course we'll add some of the common SLAs for unique devils.

we need to figure out how to convert the whole "gp weight" thing from 1E. you missed this part: "Amduscias can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) in anyone within 3” he points at (but only one target per round)." since just about all of these guys have some sort of fear power, i wonder if this is an SLA or Su.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Amduscias can attempt to summon 1d3 abishai (of any color) with a 70% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell (CL Xth).

Tongues (Su): Amduscias can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level Xth). This ability is always active.

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of Amduscias at a distance of 30 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 8, 2007)

Looks good. I would Disagree with the higher Dex. A higher Dex goes against the "average Dexterity" line in the original writeup. 15 is high enough for TWF, and he probably doesn't need improved or greater. If he does, we can give them as bonus feats. Remember, he prefers to fight in wolf form, and TWF is not useful in that form.

I agree with Negotiator as a feat. 

My feat suggestions: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Improved Initiative, Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fire shield), Two-Weapon Fighting, Vile Natural Attack (Unicorn Horn), and Weapon Focus (Wolf Bite)

Leaves one more feat slot open.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 8, 2007)

would Dex 17 (taking 2 from Con) be too much?


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Looks good. I would Disagree with the higher Dex. A higher Dex goes against the "average Dexterity" line in the original writeup. 15 is high enough for TWF, and he probably doesn't need improved or greater. If he does, we can give them as bonus feats. Remember, he prefers to fight in wolf form, and TWF is not useful in that form.




I'm fine with that.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> My feat suggestions: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Improved Initiative, Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fire shield), Two-Weapon Fighting, Vile Natural Attack (Unicorn Horn), and Weapon Focus (Wolf Bite)
> 
> Leaves one more feat slot open.




That looks pretty good.  I'd add Multiattack and replace Weapon Focus with Improved Critical (bite).   Speaking of which, is there a precedence on taking feats that focus on bite, when more than one unique bite attack is possessed by the creature?  I'm wondering whether we need to specify "wolf bite", or if such feats would carry over into his "bird bite".


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> would Dex 17 (taking 2 from Con) be too much?




Probably not.  It's still "average" by devil standards.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Dragon said:
			
		

> Amduscias prefers to fight in wolf form; his movement rate is 18”, and he attacks with two raking foreclaws and his jaws, or his hind claws and tail. If in a position to do so, he can use all six of these attacks in a round, against as many targets. The claws do 3-12 damage each, the jaws 1-20, and the tail 1-10 constriction damage per round plus additional damage if Amduscias uses it to immerse a held victim in water, batter a victim against a rock, etc. The tail will loosen its grip if it is severed, or if it is dealt 17 points of damage in any single round or 26 points of damage over a succession of rounds.






			
				dire wolf pertinent stats said:
			
		

> Large
> Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
> Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+10)
> Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3)
> ...




Comparing the two, I think we can probably drop the trip ability and replace it with improved grab and constrict for the tail.  I think a rake ability makes more sense than having hindclaw attacks.

Do we want to keep the severing bit?   We could work it like the kraken's tentacles.  He does have regeneration, so he can simply hold his severed tail to the stump for instant reattachment.


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Which of the common spell-like abilities should we add?



> All have...
> At will—dispel magic/greater dispel magic, greater teleport;
> 
> Most have:
> ...




He's got dispel magic and see invisibility covered.

He definitely needs greater teleport.

As a great negotiator, he could use charm monster and suggestion.

Some others that seem appropriate: dominate person, dominate monster, geas/quest, locate creature, scrying/greater scrying


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Suggested skills based on the common list we generated earlier:

Appraise = mid ranks
Bluff = max ranks
Concentration = mid to high ranks
Diplomacy = max ranks
Disguise = high ranks
Escape Artist = few ranks 
Gather Information = mid to high ranks
Hide = mid ranks
Intimidate = high to max ranks
Jump = mid to high ranks 
Knowledge (arcana) = high ranks 
Knowledge (history) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (nobility and royalty) = max ranks
Knowledge (religion) = max ranks (he does serve Tiamat, after all   )
Knowledge (the planes) = max ranks
Listen = high to max ranks
Move Silently = mid ranks
Search = mid to high ranks
Sense Motive = max ranks
Spellcraft = high ranks
Spot = high to max ranks
Survival = synergy only
Use Rope = synergy only


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 8, 2007)

Hmmm, skills look good. A 17 Dex isn't too far out there for This guy, that seems ok.

I think Improved crit (bite) would work for all bite attacks, regardless of whether it is "wolf bite" or "bird bite"

I agree Multiattack and change Focus to Improved Crit.

As for SLA's, Maybe improve Dispel to Greater Dispel

Add Greater Teleport, Charm Monster, Major Image, Suggestion

3/day Dominate Monster and Unholy Aura

??


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 8, 2007)

For skills, Seems ok to me. I agree with the Knowledge (religion)...

For Summon Devils though ... 1d3 abishai (any color) seems a bit weak for an Archduke of hell.

Maybe 1d6 abishai (any color) or 1 ((Possibly Spawn of Tiamat or some other Tiamat-friendly devil))


----------



## Shade (Mar 8, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> I think Improved crit (bite) would work for all bite attacks, regardless of whether it is "wolf bite" or "bird bite"




I kinda thought (and hoped) it worked that way.    



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> As for SLA's, Maybe improve Dispel to Greater Dispel
> 
> Add Greater Teleport, Charm Monster, Major Image, Suggestion
> 
> 3/day Dominate Monster and Unholy Aura




Those look good to me.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> For Summon Devils though ... 1d3 abishai (any color) seems a bit weak for an Archduke of hell.
> 
> Maybe 1d6 abishai (any color) or 1 ((Possibly Spawn of Tiamat or some other Tiamat-friendly devil))




It's not too bad...according to FCII, a blue abishai is summon monster VII, and a red can only be called with planar ally.  Still, I think bumping it to 1d6 is fine (even the CR 8 red abishai can get 3 blues).

Technically, we can't use the spawn of Tiamat for summoning purposes since they aren't extraplanar.   Besides, they kinda suck.    

Summoning a lesser aspect of Tiamat with a slim percentage might work, though.


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 9, 2007)

I think that both dukes that serve Tiamat should be able to summon fiendish chromatic dragons.


----------



## Mortis (Mar 9, 2007)

I could see 'True Seeing' as a SLA - it helps to know with exactaly who/what you are negotiating with. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Special Attacks: Alternate form




that's a special attack now?  

i think making his humanoid form into his "base" form is a good idea - after all, most uber-devils are humanoid in form.  he'll just swtich to a wolf regularly.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That looks pretty good.  I'd add Multiattack and replace Weapon Focus with Improved Critical (bite).   Speaking of which, is there a precedence on taking feats that focus on bite, when more than one unique bite attack is possessed by the creature?  I'm wondering whether we need to specify "wolf bite", or if such feats would carry over into his "bird bite".




so: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fire shield), Two-Weapon Fighting, Vile Natural Attack (horn) ?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Comparing the two, I think we can probably drop the trip ability and replace it with improved grab and constrict for the tail.  I think a rake ability makes more sense than having hindclaw attacks.




agreed!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to keep the severing bit?   We could work it like the kraken's tentacles.  He does have regeneration, so he can simply hold his severed tail to the stump for instant reattachment.




defeinitely want to keep severing for the tail.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Which of the common spell-like abilities should we add?
> 
> He's got dispel magic and see invisibility covered.
> 
> ...




yes to greater teleport, absolutely yes to charm monster and suggestion - though dominate monster would be a fine replacement for either.    locate creature and scrying would also be goodies.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Suggested skills based on the common list we generated earlier:
> 
> Appraise = mid ranks
> Bluff = max ranks
> ...




sounds good - i could honestly see him using both Bluff and Diplomacy equally.    a shape-shifter like him is definitely big on trickery, but the devil in him would be big on Diplomacy as well!



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Hmmm, skills look good. A 17 Dex isn't too far out there for This guy, that seems ok.




good deal.    maybe yank 2 from Con for that?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Technically, we can't use the spawn of Tiamat for summoning purposes since they aren't extraplanar.   Besides, they kinda suck.




heheh!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 9, 2007)

also, we should probably give him some weapons to wield.    maybe a dagger and short sword (it says he uses smaller weapons), with perhaps +3 enchantments.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> that's a special attack now?




   Technically, its a "special action" or "combat option" now, I'd suppose.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i think making his humanoid form into his "base" form is a good idea - after all, most uber-devils are humanoid in form.  he'll just swtich to a wolf regularly.




Sounds good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> so: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fire shield), Two-Weapon Fighting, Vile Natural Attack (horn) ?




Yep.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> defeinitely want to keep severing for the tail.




Cool.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> yes to greater teleport, absolutely yes to charm monster and suggestion - though dominate monster would be a fine replacement for either.    locate creature and scrying would also be goodies.




How's about g teleport, charm monster, and suggestion at will, locate creature and scrying 3/day, and dominate monster 1/day?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good - i could honestly see him using both Bluff and Diplomacy equally.    a shape-shifter like him is definitely big on trickery, but the devil in him would be big on Diplomacy as well!




Indeed!



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> good deal.    maybe yank 2 from Con for that?




Sure.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> also, we should probably give him some weapons to wield.    maybe a dagger and short sword (it says he uses smaller weapons), with perhaps +3 enchantments.




I think the dagger should have wounding to carry over from his unicorn form.  It could even look like a unicorn horn.    

As for the other, unholy is always a safe bet.   Dragonbane might be useful for keeping Tiamat's renegade servants and Bahamut's minions in line.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Constrict (Ex): Amduscias deals XdX+X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Amduscias must hit with his tail attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

An opponent can attack Amduscias's tail with a sunder attempt as if it were a weapon. Amduscias's tail has X hit points. If Amduscias is currently grappling a target with the his tail, he usually uses another limb to make his attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing Amduscias's tail deals X points of damage to him.  If severed, Amduscias can reattach his tail instantly by holding it to the stump.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I think that both dukes that serve Tiamat should be able to summon fiendish chromatic dragons.




It's a shame the hellfire wyrm is so powerful, as it would be perfect.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I could see 'True Seeing' as a SLA - it helps to know with exactaly who/what you are negotiating with.




Most of the archdevils have either see invisibility or true seeing.  Since he had the old detect invisible spell, I thought see invis was closer.  That said, I have no problem with giving him true seeing instead.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 9, 2007)

OK, here is what i currently show for his stat block:

*Amduscias*
Medium Outsider (evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Hit Dice: 26d8+208 (325 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: X (-X size, +3 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat- footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +26/+36
Attack: Slam +X melee (1dX+X)
Full Attack: 2 slams +X melee (1dX+X) and bite +X melee (1dX+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Bleeding wounds, constrict, improved grab, spell-like abilities, summon devils
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 20/good and silver, darkvision 60 ft, regeneration 5, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR,  telepathy 100 ft, tongues, unnatural aura
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +19, Will +23
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 37
Skills: X Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, and Perform (acting)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fire shield), Two-Weapon Fighting, Vile Natural Attack (horn)

Environment: The Nine Hells of Baator
Organization: Solitary (plus X)
Challenge Rating: 21-23?
Treasure: X
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 9, 2007)

A bit of work for his Alternate Form power:

“He can shape change at will into a dirty yellow unicorn with eyes of flame and a purple horn…

“When in unicorn form, Amduscias attacks with his horn (acts as a sword of wounding, for 2-9 damage), or his hooves (2 per round, for 2-10 damage each). His maximum movement rate in this form is 18”; he can “bolt” from a standing start, and some say that when horses spook or gallop uncontrollably, it is because Amduscias has affected them.”

OK, we gave him Bleeding Wounds for his horn attack (for which the standard unicorn damage of 1d8 makes sense; plus, he has attacks with his hooves (the damage of which seems a bit larger than a unicorn’s 1d4+2).  

The move of 18 translates into 50, which is slower than a unicorn’s 60 so we might as well just use the 60.  

“Bolting” from a standing start doesn’t seem to have any combat application, so we can probably ignore that.

We also gave him Unnatural Aura – do you want to make that only in his unicorn form?

*****

“a hawk-headed man (he usually wears dark red or black robes when in this form)…” 

“In human-like form Amduscias has average dexterity, and two or three attacks (fists for 1-2 each and beak for 1-8, or weapon and beak). Amduscias is ambidextrous and can wield two weapons if they are small (e.g., daggers or darts). This devil has above average strength when in human-like form, and a long, curved beak somewhat like a hummingbird’s in appearance. This beak is, however, terrifically strong and sharp. His move in this form is 12”. “

For one thing, what size should he be?  Some devils are Medium humanoids while some are large.  The temptation might be to make him Large, since his other two forms are already, and that would keep things easy.  

He has 2 slams base (we can increase that damage a bit).  And I could see him using his bite in conjunction with the slams.  Maybe he could also bite while making weapon attacks – but not too sure of that.

Move of 12 equals speed 30, so that’s his base.

*****

“…or his favored form: a wolf with a prehensile, constricting serpent’s tail.”

“Amduscias prefers to fight in wolf form; his movement rate is 18”, and he attacks with two raking foreclaws and his jaws, or his hind claws and tail. If in a position to do so, he can use all six of these attacks in a round, against as many targets. The claws do 3-12 damage each, the jaws 1-20, and the tail 1-10 constriction damage per round plus additional damage if Amduscias uses it to immerse a held victim in water, batter a victim against a rock, etc. The tail will loosen its grip if it is severed, or if it is dealt 17 points of damage in any single round or 26 points of damage over a succession of rounds.”

Like I said above, move 18 is now speed 50; since we’re emulating dire wolf which has 50, we’re OK there.

He can take the rake attack instead of trip, like Shade said above.

He has an amazing six attacks per round; 2 claws, bite, 2 hind claws, and tail. Shade suggested dropping the hind claws attacks since he can do the rake, but the tail still comes into play with the Improved Grab/Constrict combo.  Maybe the severing damage should be no more than 15 – possibly even less than that.  we’ll not worry about the tail getting hit in a succession of rounds.

I could see giving him the scent quality as well, maybe low-light vision, in this form, and the skill bonus for tracking by scent.

*****

“Amduscias can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) in anyone within 3” he points at (but only one target per round).”

In 1E, cause fear was the reverse of the 1st-level spell remove fear.  Essentially, it just caused the frightened condition for 1 round/caster level.  The 3E spell, of course, is a lot weaker.  We could just say that he can cause any target within (30 feet?) to be frightened for X rounds.  Or if you want to get really nasty, we could let him do it as a free action (one target/round).


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, we gave him Bleeding Wounds for his horn attack (for which the standard unicorn damage of 1d8 makes sense; plus, he has attacks with his hooves (the damage of which seems a bit larger than a unicorn’s 1d4+2).




I'd say boost the hooves to 1d6 or 1d8.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> The move of 18 translates into 50, which is slower than a unicorn’s 60 so we might as well just use the 60.




Agreed.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> “Bolting” from a standing start doesn’t seem to have any combat application, so we can probably ignore that.




Agreed again.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> We also gave him Unnatural Aura – do you want to make that only in his unicorn form?




I think it should carryover between forms.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> For one thing, what size should he be?  Some devils are Medium humanoids while some are large.  The temptation might be to make him Large, since his other two forms are already, and that would keep things easy.




I'm tempted by the easy way.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> He has 2 slams base (we can increase that damage a bit).  And I could see him using his bite in conjunction with the slams.  Maybe he could also bite while making weapon attacks – but not too sure of that.




Plenty of creatures have bites with manufactured weapon attacks, so I'd say go for it.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Move of 12 equals speed 30, so that’s his base.




Perfect.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> He can take the rake attack instead of trip, like Shade said above.




Rake (Ex): Wolf form only; attack bonus +X melee, damage XdX+X.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> He has an amazing six attacks per round; 2 claws, bite, 2 hind claws, and tail. Shade suggested dropping the hind claws attacks since he can do the rake, but the tail still comes into play with the Improved Grab/Constrict combo.  Maybe the severing damage should be no more than 15 – possibly even less than that.  we’ll not worry about the tail getting hit in a succession of rounds.




15 sounds fine.  He can reattach it easily enough.  Plus, it benefits from his damage reduction.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I could see giving him the scent quality as well, maybe low-light vision, in this form, and the skill bonus for tracking by scent.




Agreed.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> “Amduscias can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) in anyone within 3” he points at (but only one target per round).”
> 
> In 1E, cause fear was the reverse of the 1st-level spell remove fear.  Essentially, it just caused the frightened condition for 1 round/caster level.  The 3E spell, of course, is a lot weaker.  We could just say that he can cause any target within (30 feet?) to be frightened for X rounds.  Or if you want to get really nasty, we could let him do it as a free action (one target/round).




Here are some options from other devils....

Fear (Su): A creature hit by a barbed devil must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or be affected as though by fear (caster level 9th).

Whether or not the save is successful, that creature cannot be affected by that same barbed devil’s fear ability for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Fear Aura (Su): At the end of each of a malebranche's turns, creatures within 20 feet of it must succeed on DC 18 Will saves or be panicked for 10 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Fear and Weakness Gaze (Su): As the fear and ray of enfeeblement spells; at will; DC 32; caster level 20th. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Fear and weakness gaze has a range of 50 feet. Those targeted by Baalzebul's gaze must succeed on two saving throws, one for fear and the other for ray of enfeeblement.

A creature that successfuly saves cannot be affected by that same malebranche's fear aura for 24 hours. Baatezu are immune to the aura.

Abishai have scare as an at will SLA, which might make sense for him considering his pedigree.

We could also go with frighful presence when he attacks.


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 9, 2007)

*"Bolt"*

Here is an idea:

Bolt (Ex):  When in his unicorn form, Amduscias can Run as a move action.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 9, 2007)

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3389769&postcount=98



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm tempted by the easy way.




temptation is what devils are all about!  

we'll go with Large for his standard form then.  even 9 feet tall would cover that, so he needn't be a giant or anything.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Here are some options from other devils....
> 
> Fear (Su): A creature hit by a barbed devil must succeed on a DC 20 Will save or be affected as though by fear (caster level 9th).
> 
> ...




he's not related to the abishai, just works with them.  

i don't particularly like any of those options.  like i said, other dukes have the gaze and aura thing going on, so we might as well keep this different from them.  it should be as simple as any SLA.  here's some DIY in action.  

Fear (Su): As a standard action, Amduscias can frighten a creature within 30 feet.  The affected creature must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or be frightened for X rounds.

like i said before, it might be nasty to have this attack as a swift action or something.  



			
				Shroomy said:
			
		

> Here is an idea:
> 
> Bolt (Ex):  When in his unicorn form, Amduscias can Run as a move action.




that's a possibility.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3389769&postcount=98




Looks good so far.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> temptation is what devils are all about!
> 
> we'll go with Large for his standard form then.  even 9 feet tall would cover that, so he needn't be a giant or anything.




Excellent.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> he's not related to the abishai, just works with them.




Right.  I just meant "affiliated with Tiamat", I suppose.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't particularly like any of those options.  like i said, other dukes have the gaze and aura thing going on, so we might as well keep this different from them.  it should be as simple as any SLA.  here's some DIY in action.
> 
> Fear (Su): As a standard action, Amduscias can frighten a creature within 30 feet.  The affected creature must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or be frightened for X rounds.
> 
> like i said before, it might be nasty to have this attack as a swift action or something.




So be it.  I suppose that will work, and a swift action is fine.


----------



## Shade (Mar 9, 2007)

Suggested Skill Ranks (15 at 29 ranks):

Appraise 10, Bluff 29, Concentration 10, Diplomacy 29, Disguise 29, Escape Artist 5, Gather Information 20, Hide 14, Intimidate 29, Jump 15, Knowledge (arcana) 29, Knowledge (history) 20, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 24, Knowledge (religion) 29, Knowledge (the planes) 29, Listen 13, Move Silently 10, Perform (acting) 29, Search 10, Sense Motive 29, Spellcraft 10, Spot 13


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 10, 2007)

So far, it all looks good. I like the Bolt ability, being able to run as a move action is pretty big for maneuverability.


Fear (Su): As a swift action, Amduscias can frighten a creature within 30 feet. The affected creature must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or be frightened for 2d6 rounds.

2d6 rounds, and I changed Standard Action to swift action as per Shade.

Also, a thought:

While in Unicorn form, maybe make all the damage vile damage on a charge instead of the wounding or bleeding property. It could actually be more deadly in the long run for parties who encounter him in the Hells (after all, where do you find Hallowed/Consecrated ground in Hell??)

Vile Horn (Su): When charging in unicorn form, Amduscias's horn deals vile damage instead of normal damage. Vile damage cannot be healed unless the victim is on hallowed or consecrated ground.

Or something like that?


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 10, 2007)

Boz, I was looking at your provisional statblock and I was wondering, is Amduscias considered a baatezu or is he a non-baatezu devil like a kyton?  Just asking because he doesn't have the baatezu sub-type.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 11, 2007)

Well, Baatezu may technically be Protected content, the OGC option is to add the Devil subtype.

I'm not sure if it was accidental or deliberate. I think it should be there, however.


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 11, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Well, Baatezu may technically be Protected content, the OGC option is to add the Devil subtype.
> 
> I'm not sure if it was accidental or deliberate. I think it should be there, however.




Forgot about that.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 12, 2007)

, well, I had an epiphany last night while I was re-designing the Lords of the Nine for my campaign (I personally believe no Archfiend, Celestial Paragon, or Archomental should have a CR in the mid to low 20 range. On the other hand, I don't want them as powerful as what Dicefreaks has up, so I do the work myself, I usually end with creatures between 28 (for the low paragons) to 50ish (for the higher powered ones)).

The Epiphany is for the Summon Devils/Summon Baatezu ability.

I think it should be. 

*Summon Devils (Sp):* Once per day, Amudicias can automatically summon 1d6 abishai of any color or attempt to summon one aspect of Tiamat with a 20% chance of success.

and

*Vile Charge (Su):* When Amudicias charges while in unicorn form, his unholy power focuses in the horn on his forehead. When charging, all damage dealt by his horn is considered vile damage.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 12, 2007)

OK, added the skill ranks and everything else discussed so far (unless i missed something, and i'm sure i did):

*Amduscias*
Large Outsider (baatezu, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Hit Dice: 26d8+208 (325 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: X (-1 size, +3 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat- footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +26/+40
Attack: Slam +35 melee (1d6+10)
Full Attack: 2 slams +35 melee (1d6+10) and bite +37 melee (1d8+5/19-20); or weapon1 +33 melee (dam) and weapon2 +28 melee (dam) and bite +31 melee (1d8+5/19-20) (don’t know if I got those values right)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Bleeding wounds, constrict, fear, improved grab, rake, spell-like abilities, summon devils
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 20/good and silver, darkvision 60 ft, regeneration 5, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR,  telepathy 100 ft, tongues, unnatural aura
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +19, Will +23
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 37
Skills: Appraise +17, Bluff +42, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +50, Disguise +42 (+44 acting), Escape Artist +8, Gather Information +33, Hide +13, Intimidate +44, Jump +25, Knowledge (arcana) +36, Knowledge (history) +27, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +31, Knowledge (religion) +36, Knowledge (the planes) +36, Listen +20, Move Silently +13, Perform (acting) +42, Search +17, Sense Motive +38, Spellcraft +19, Spot +20, Survival +7 (+9 other planes, +9 following tracks), Use Rope +3 (+5 bindings)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fire shield), Two-Weapon Fighting, Vile Natural Attack (horn)

Environment: The Nine Hells of Baator
Organization: Solitary (plus X)
Challenge Rating: 21-23?
Treasure: X
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---




			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> So far, it all looks good. I like the Bolt ability, being able to run as a move action is pretty big for maneuverability.
> 
> 
> Fear (Su): As a swift action, Amduscias can frighten a creature within 30 feet. The affected creature must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or be frightened for 2d6 rounds.
> ...




2d6 rounds is fine with me, as is the Bolt ability if it's mechanically feasable.



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Also, a thought:
> 
> While in Unicorn form, maybe make all the damage vile damage on a charge instead of the wounding or bleeding property. It could actually be more deadly in the long run for parties who encounter him in the Hells (after all, where do you find Hallowed/Consecrated ground in Hell??)
> 
> ...




is that necessary with the Vile Natural Attack (horn) feat?



			
				Shroomy said:
			
		

> Boz, I was looking at your provisional statblock and I was wondering, is Amduscias considered a baatezu or is he a non-baatezu devil like a kyton?  Just asking because he doesn't have the baatezu sub-type.




to quote your avatar:  D'oh!  oversight on my part.  consider it fixed - see above!



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> , well, I had an epiphany last night while I was re-designing the Lords of the Nine for my campaign (I personally believe no Archfiend, Celestial Paragon, or Archomental should have a CR in the mid to low 20 range. On the other hand, I don't want them as powerful as what Dicefreaks has up, so I do the work myself, I usually end with creatures between 28 (for the low paragons) to 50ish (for the higher powered ones)).
> 
> The Epiphany is for the Summon Devils/Summon Baatezu ability.
> 
> ...




my main problem with that would be - wouldn't an Aspect of Tiamat have a higher CR than Amduscias?


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 12, 2007)

I really don't like the idea that he can summon an aspect of Tiamat.  The power levels of an aspect have too much variation, and there is no hard and fast rules to create them.  I still prefer the option of summoning fiendish chromatic dragons.


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 12, 2007)

Boz, one other thing I noticed, shouldn't Amduscias have the shapechanger sub-type?


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 12, 2007)

Aspect of Tiamat has a CR of 11 (In Races of the Dragon, Miniature's Handbook, and Dragon Magic, Red Hand of Doom).

That was the one I was thinking of.

As for power level, the spell "Summon Aspect of Tiamat" in Dragon magic is listed as an 8th-level spell.

As for the Shapechanger subtype, the Eladrins don't have it...



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> is that necessary with the Vile Natural Attack (horn) feat?




There is a difference between all the damage of an attack being vile, and only 1 point of damage being vile. This is a suggestion instead of Bleeding Wounds. In a sense, wounds that CAN'T be healed (at least not easily).


----------



## Cheiromancer (Mar 12, 2007)

Every time I see this thread I want to say "Just put a _helm of opposite alignment_ on them!"

Seriously, though, you guys are doing damned good work.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 12, 2007)

Hey, that might make for an interesting new Celestial Paragon.


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2007)

OK, trying to play catch-up here...

Vile Horn - I like the concept, and I'm fine with it, but I don't want to lose the bleeding wounds, as the original source material was pretty clear that the horn functions as a "sword of wounding".  If we go this route, we'll want to replace the vile natural attack (gore) feat.

Summoning - I prefer the aspect of Tiamat to fiendish chromatic dragons, for several reasons.   First, summoning things that don't already have clearly defined stat blocks can be annoying for DMs (of course, we've been guilty of this before  ).  Secondly, I like the concept of calling on his Queen's favor directly in the form of an aspect.

Baatezu subtype - absolutely!

Shapechanger subtype - Probably unnecessary as most of the fiends with alternate form or change shape abilities don't have it (see revised imp, quasit, succubus for examples).


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 13, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> Aspect of Tiamat has a CR of 11 (In Races of the Dragon, Miniature's Handbook, and Dragon Magic, Red Hand of Doom).
> 
> That was the one I was thinking of.
> 
> As for power level, the spell "Summon Aspect of Tiamat" in Dragon magic is listed as an 8th-level spell.




oh!  well in that case, i guess that's fine.    how do we indicate it clearly in the writeup that this is the version we're talking about?  just a page number referencing Races of Dragon good enough?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Vile Horn - I like the concept, and I'm fine with it, but I don't want to lose the bleeding wounds, as the original source material was pretty clear that the horn functions as a "sword of wounding".  If we go this route, we'll want to replace the vile natural attack (gore) feat.




yeah, i agree completely - keep the wounding, and if we use the Vile Horn we don't double up with the feat and need to replace the VNA feat.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Shapechanger subtype - Probably unnecessary as most of the fiends with alternate form or change shape abilities don't have it (see revised imp, quasit, succubus for examples).




indeed.


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> oh!  well in that case, i guess that's fine.    how do we indicate it clearly in the writeup that this is the version we're talking about?  just a page number referencing Races of Dragon good enough?




That would work, except Dragon Magic, p. 110 is probably the most current source.  We might offer up an alternate for folks not using that book...maybe a five-headed hydra that gets a 12d8 breath weapon of acid, cold, electricity, or fire (its choice) and the poison stinger of a wyvern?


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That would work, except Dragon Magic, p. 110 is probably the most current source.  We might offer up an alternate for folks not using that book...maybe a five-headed hydra that gets a 12d8 breath weapon of acid, cold, electricity, or fire (its choice) and the poison stinger of a wyvern?




Agreed. The Hydra option is pretty good for those who don't have the stats for the Aspect.


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> That would work, except Dragon Magic, p. 110 is probably the most current source.  We might offer up an alternate for folks not using that book...maybe a five-headed hydra that gets a 12d8 breath weapon of acid, cold, electricity, or fire (its choice) and the poison stinger of a wyvern?




Tiamat's aspect is also available for free as part of the FCII Web Enhancement; I believe this is the most current version.  If you are going down the route of having Amduscias summon an aspect of Tiamat, I would leave it at that or make fiendish dragons the back-up.  There are no real rules for quickly creating a hydra with five different breath weapons and a poison stinger other than the rules for creating a brand new monster, so you'd be adding a lot more work for the DM since they will have to create it from scratch.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 13, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Tiamat's aspect is also available for free as part of the FCII Web Enhancement; I believe this is the most current version.  If you are going down the route of having Amduscias summon an aspect of Tiamat, I would leave it at that or make fiendish dragons the back-up.  There are no real rules for quickly creating a hydra with five different breath weapons and a poison stinger other than the rules for creating a brand new monster, so you'd be adding a lot more work for the DM since they will have to create it from scratch.




Yeah, I forgot about the FC2 Enhancement.

Still, I disagree with your assertion that it is as difficult to alter a hydra minorly as it is to create a whole new monster from scratch.

Completely disagree. Use the Stats for a Hydra, except it can breathe and has a tail attack.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 13, 2007)

are the Dragon Magic aspect and FC2WE aspect mostly the same?  if so, it might just be easiest to list both rather than quibble over it.    then we don't have to tell people to do any math at all (even 1 + 1!)


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 13, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> are the Dragon Magic aspect and FC2WE aspect mostly the same?  if so, it might just be easiest to list both rather than quibble over it.    then we don't have to tell people to do any math at all (even 1 + 1!)




I'm not sure, I'll check when i get home.

Posting at work....
I suppose that makes me an Aspect of Gothenem ?!?!?!


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Tiamat's aspect is also available for free as part of the FCII Web Enhancement; I believe this is the most current version.  If you are going down the route of having Amduscias summon an aspect of Tiamat, I would leave it at that or make fiendish dragons the back-up.  There are no real rules for quickly creating a hydra with five different breath weapons and a poison stinger other than the rules for creating a brand new monster, so you'd be adding a lot more work for the DM since they will have to create it from scratch.




True.  It's the same issue as the fiendish dragons (unless sample fiendish dragons of appropriate age categories are readily available in the core books).


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> True.  It's the same issue as the fiendish dragons (unless sample fiendish dragons of appropriate age categories are readily available in the core books).




There aren't, at least that I am aware of, however, IMO it is quicker and easier to apply a template to an existing monster than to build a new one from scratch.


----------



## Shade (Mar 13, 2007)

Dragons are a special case, though.  They require a lot of building before the template is even applied.  I was proprosing just stating "use a five headed hydra and give it these two extra abilities".  CR wouldn't matter since it's a summoned creature.  That said, it would still be simpler to just state "use abishai or aspect of Tiamat", give their page numbers and sources, and leave it up to DMs to find suitable replacements.


----------



## Shroomy (Mar 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Dragons are a special case, though.  They require a lot of building before the template is even applied.  I was proprosing just stating "use a five headed hydra and give it these two extra abilities".  CR wouldn't matter since it's a summoned creature.  That said, it would still be simpler to just state "use abishai or aspect of Tiamat", give their page numbers and sources, and leave it up to DMs to find suitable replacements.




Very true.  I think you should be good to go with just the "Aspect of Tiamat (_Dragon Magic_)."  The rationale for including the alternate hydra or fiendish dragons was that the Aspect of Tiamat is not in a core supplement.  However, neither are abishai and we have not discussed replacements for them.


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## Gothenem (Mar 14, 2007)

Statistically, the Aspect from the FC2 enhancement and the one from Dragon magic are different, however, the Challenge rating is the same (13), so it really shouldn't matter.

The summon should be the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (same as Summon Aspect of Tiamat is).


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 15, 2007)

this is a minor aspect of the character, so i'd prefer the simplest solution.  whatever would be easiest for DMs, and us, to handle - that's what i want to go with.  no need to make a major issue out of it.  

and even still, if we go with just the aspect from a single book, and the DM either doesn't have that or doesn't want to use it, it's always the DM's prerogative to switch it to a different aspect, a fiendish dragon, or whatever his little heart desires.    (we could even make a parenthetical suggestion or two, which i have no problem with).


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2007)

About time for a homebrews summary, cap'n?


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 15, 2007)

basically.    just need to find some time to get it together.  hopefully tonight, or over the weekend.  don't mean to drag my feet, but i've been preoccupied with "real life" this week!


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2007)

I think I can help you out a bit.    

Amduscias
Large Outsider (baatezu, evil, extraplanar, lawful)
Hit Dice: 26d8+208 (325 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 30 ft
Armor Class: X (-1 size, +3 Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat- footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +26/+40
Attack: Slam +35 melee (1d6+10)
Full Attack: 2 slams +35 melee (1d6+10) and bite +37 melee (1d8+5/19-20); or weapon1 +33 melee (dam) and weapon2 +28 melee (dam) and bite +31 melee (1d8+5/19-20) (don’t know if I got those values right)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Bleeding wounds, constrict, fear, improved grab, rake, spell-like abilities, summon devils
Special Qualities: Alternate form, damage reduction 20/good and silver, darkvision 60 ft, regeneration 5, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR, telepathy 100 ft, tongues, unnatural aura
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +19, Will +23
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 17, Con 26, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 37
Skills: Appraise +17, Bluff +42, Concentration +18, Diplomacy +50, Disguise +42 (+44 acting), Escape Artist +8, Gather Information +33, Hide +13, Intimidate +44, Jump +25, Knowledge (arcana) +36, Knowledge (history) +27, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +31, Knowledge (religion) +36, Knowledge (the planes) +36, Listen +20, Move Silently +13, Perform (acting) +42, Search +17, Sense Motive +38, Spellcraft +19, Spot +20, Survival +7 (+9 other planes, +9 following tracks), Use Rope +3 (+5 bindings)
Feats: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Negotiator, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fire shield), Two-Weapon Fighting, Vile Natural Attack (horn)

Environment: The Nine Hells of Baator
Organization: Solitary (plus X)
Challenge Rating: 21-23?
Treasure: X
Alignment: Lawful evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---


Alternate Form (Su): Amduscias can shift between his humanoid, unicorn, and wolf forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, he cannot ..., but he can use .... In unicorn form, he cannot ..., but he can use .... In wolf form he cannot ..., but he can use .... 

Amduscias remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Amduscias revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals all forms simultaneously.

Unicorn form:
Speed: 60 ft. (12 squares)
Attack: Horn +X melee (1d8+X vile plus bleeding wounds)
Full Attack: Horn +X melee (1d8+X vile plus bleeding wounds and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d6+X)
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 21

Humanoid Form: Gains bite attack that deals X damage.
Fights with dagger (should have wounding to carry over from his unicorn form. It could even look like a unicorn horn) and short sword (unholy is always a safe bet. Dragonbane might be useful for keeping Tiamat's renegade servants and Bahamut's minions in line)

Wolf Form: Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Gains Low-light vision, scent and a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 15, Con 17

Bleeding Wounds (Ex): A wound from a Amduscias's gore attack continues to bleed after the injury was inflicted. Each wound bleeds for 1 point of damage per round thereafter. Multiple gore wounds result in cumulative bleeding loss (two wounds deal 2 points of damage per round, and so on). The bleeding can be stopped only by a successful DC 15 Heal check or the application of any cure spell or other healing spell (heal, mass heal, and so on).

Bolt (Ex): When in his unicorn form, Amduscias can Run as a move action.

Constrict (Ex): Amduscias deals XdX+X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Fear (Su): As a swift action, Amduscias can frighten a creature within 30 feet. The affected creature must succeed on a DC 36 Will save or be frightened for 2d6 rounds.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Amduscias must hit with his tail attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.

An opponent can attack Amduscias's tail with a sunder attempt as if it were a weapon. Amduscias's tail has X hit points. If Amduscias is currently grappling a target with the his tail, he usually uses another limb to make his attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing Amduscias's tail deals X points of damage to him. If severed, Amduscias can reattach his tail instantly by holding it to the stump.

Rake (Ex): Wolf form only; attack bonus +X melee, damage XdX+X.

Regeneration (Ex): Good weapons, and spells and effects with the good descriptor, deal normal damage to ARCH. If ARCH loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. ARCH can reaattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level Xth)
At will—charm monster (DC X), discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, suggestion (DC X), telekinesis (5,000 g.p. maximum weight, DC X);
1/day—dominate monster (DC X), symbol of stunning (DC X).

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Amudicias can automatically summon 1d6 abishai of any color or attempt to summon one aspect of Tiamat with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).

Tongues (Su): Amduscias can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level Xth). This ability is always active.

Unnatural Aura (Su): Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of Amduscias at a distance of 30 feet. They do not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2007)

looks like i found the time that i was looking for.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2007)

Sweeeeet.    

I guess it's time to tackle the AC, eh?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Armor Class: Total AC will be equal to CR +18 – 1E AC (which, of course, are all negative numbers). AC minus Dex mod, bonus from items, and misc bonuses = Natural AC bonus.




Amduscias - -2

So is that CR + 18 - (-2), or CR +20?


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2007)

when you subtract a negative number... you're really adding it.    so, you're right both times.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2007)

So his target AC is going to be 41-43.

Dex modifier is +3.

Size modifier is -1.

That leaves +29 to +31 to split between natural armor and any deflection or insight bonuses.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2007)

were we going with deflection/insight?  i thought we were dumping those and going straight natural armor.  i forget, maybe i'm wrong.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2007)

Apparently so...



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, well, i don't like the "hey, they all get a deflection bonus from using items!" cop-out, so, eh, what the hell, we'll give 'em straight up natural armor for now.  if we find that something works better as we work on them, we can always change it.  so, in the interest of having all this neat information at the top of a page, and since the default is 40...


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## Gothenem (Mar 16, 2007)

Hmmm, I'm not too opposed to high natural armors, but I do think at least some of the AC should come from something else. Even if we add an in-story reason for it. Such as a +10 profane bonus to AC granted to him from Tiamat.

Just a thought.


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## Gothenem (Mar 16, 2007)

_This man wears dark robes, and has a hawk’s head. Yeah, that’s really inspiring – rewrite/add!_

Hmmmm

_Before you stands a humanoid figure wearing dark robes. A hawk-like head with sickly green eyes stares at you with confidence and malice. As he approaches, you can feel the souls of the damned cry out in horror._


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## Shroomy (Mar 18, 2007)

I don't have FCII in front of me, but I do have a copy of the BoVD and each of the archfiends depicted therein pretty much has a deflection and an insight bonus, and the natural armor bonuses never went above +25.  Having a very, very high natural armor bonus doesn't seem right to me, and it leaves the dukes very vulnerable to touch attacks.


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## Gothenem (Mar 18, 2007)

FCII does not have said bonuses. IMHO I think that was a drastic mistake, as I think that all archfiends should have some sort of AC bonus like that. I would vote for a Profane bonus to AC, or barring that, an Insight bonus.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 19, 2007)

i'm fine with going back to the Wis bonus = insight bonus, if that's fine with all of you.  for the sake of ease, i'd like to apply whatever we decide for AC to each of these guys (regarless of how they're presented in any other book).  either just insight, just deflection, insight and deflection, or straight natural armor, would apply to all cases.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2007)

I'm opposed to the insight and deflection bonuses (at least, not granted by items).   Not only do none of the FCII archdevils have it, nor do the FCI demon lords, but even in the Demonomicon James has moved away from using them.   (Note that Dagon and Kotsctchtie have deflection bonuses granted from unholy aura, not a measure of their Cha modifier).

I'm fine with allowing for unholy aura to account for a deflection bonus, or giving them items that fall within the wealth commensurate to their CR, but I'd hate to make them "better" than their superiors.

I really wish they'd stuck with them, as I thought it was a great idea, but I don't want to cause compatibility issues at this stage in the game.


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## Gothenem (Mar 19, 2007)

Noted. In this case, I would agree with using items and such to enhance their AC.

Possibly in some cases, a special effect here or there, or a unique item.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

i'd hate to have them depending on items to increase their stats - let the DM decide if he wants to use that for them.  let's look into that unholy aura option a bit more.  what does that entail?

i worked out the desription a bit more, given what Gothenem suggested:
_This otherwise handsome, dark-robed humanoid figure has the head of a fearsome bird of prey where a human head should be.  His beak is long and curved somewhat, like that of a hummingbird’s, and his sickly green eyes stare out with confidence and malice. He deftly wields a weapon in each hand._


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'd hate to have them depending on items to increase their stats - let the DM decide if he wants to use that for them.  let's look into that unholy aura option a bit more.  what does that entail?




Well, FCII has many of them relying on such items.    

Basically, if the creature has unholy aura at will, he gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saves.  Since it is at will, they went ahead and figured these bonuses into the stat block of the archdevils in FC2.  Anything less than at will, though, won't work, as it only lasts 1 round/level.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i worked out the desription a bit more, given what Gothenem suggested:
> _This otherwise handsome, dark-robed humanoid figure has the head of a fearsome bird of prey where a human head should be.  His beak is long and curved somewhat, like that of a hummingbird’s, and his sickly green eyes stare out with confidence and malice. He deftly wields a weapon in each hand._




Looks good.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, FCII has many of them relying on such items.




and...?    don't forget, though, you're talking about aspects.  they might have to rely on a power boost that the more powerful form would take for granted.

how do the demonomicon articles handle the AC issue?  since those are supposed to be the non-aspect stats, that would be more applicable.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Basically, if the creature has unholy aura at will, he gains a +4 deflection bonus to AC and a +4 resistance bonus on saves.  Since it is at will, they went ahead and figured these bonuses into the stat block of the archdevils in FC2.  Anything less than at will, though, won't work, as it only lasts 1 round/level.




hmm, at will, so in other words a standard action?  well that's lame-o.  if it's more like a free action, that would be a heck of a lot more useful.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> and...?    don't forget, though, you're talking about aspects.  they might have to rely on a power boost that the more powerful form would take for granted.
> 
> how do the demonomicon articles handle the AC issue?  since those are supposed to be the non-aspect stats, that would be more applicable.




High natural armor and some have the unholy aura factored in.

Dagon: 54 (-8 size, +2 Dex, +46 natural, +4 deflection*), touch 8, flat-footed 52
Kostchtchie: 46 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +24 natural, +8 armor, +4 deflection*), touch 14, flat-footed 44
Malcanthet: 50 (+11 Dex, +12 natural, +17 deflection**), touch 38, flat-footed 39 
Fraz-Urb'luu: 41 (-2 size, +5 Dex, +23 natural, +5 insight), touch 18, flat-footed 36
Zuggtmoy: 41 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +30 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 30
Baphomet: 39 (-1 size, +4 Dex, +26 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 39
Pazuzu: 46 (+14 Dex, +14 natural, +8 insight), touch 32, flat-footed 32

*From cloak of chaos (Dagon) or unholy aura (big K).
**From profane beauty ability.

Only Fraz and Paz have the insight bonus, and both predated the Fiendish Codices.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, at will, so in other words a standard action?  well that's lame-o.  if it's more like a free action, that would be a heck of a lot more useful.




Yeah, but they only have to do so once every 2 minutes, and can "reset the clock" anytime before then.

Here's what Dagon's strats and tactics say:  "He is never encountered without having already activated a cloak of chaos spell-like ability."


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

d'oh!  i wasn't reading the /level part!  1 round/HD should be good enough.

i think we should either go with unholy aura for all, then, or come up with something similar to Mal's profane beauty and give that to all (since devils and Charisma go hand in hand)...  in fact, i think the latter might be the best way to handle it.  what does that ability look like?


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## Gothenem (Mar 20, 2007)

Well, the +4 Deflection from Unholy Aura is cool, and a decent-high natural armor, but I still think that something else can/should be used. Even if it through magic items.


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## Shroomy (Mar 20, 2007)

I went back and re-read the Amduscias description from 1e and I based on that description, I really like the idea of granting him a relatively large insight bonus on top of a natural armor bonus in the mid-20s.  I don't think this should be granted magically but by some type of extraordinary ability commesurate with his description as having a "long memory," employing "cunning strategies," and "He does not need, and does not wear, armor in any of his forms."  Flavor wise, having some kind of preternatural insight plays into his role as the "Reconciliator of Foes" and at least two of his constituent shapes, the hawk and the wolf, which are known for their senses.

This sensory ability could also grant Amduscias an insight bonus to Spot, Search, Listen, Diplomacy, etc., etc.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

I'm fine with granting Amduscias a bonus similar to what Shroomy suggested, but we're still gonna have to face this with the other Dukes.

Here's Mal's ability:

Profane Beauty (Su): Malcanthet's otherworldly beauty grants her a deflection bonus to her Armor Class equal to her Charisma bonus, as long as she doesn't wear armor. Good creatures must make a DC 43 Fortitude save each time they attempt to make a melee attack or otherwise touch Malcanthet. Failure indicates that they gain two negative levels as their souls are infused with her corruption. Malcanthet heals 20 hit points each time her profane beauty bestows negative levels on a creature. The save DC is Charisma-based.

As a full-round action, Malcanthet may use her profane beauty offensively. She must successfully grapple a foe in order to do so, at which point she can inflict 2 negative levels per round she maintains the grapple. Alternately, she can inflict 2 negative levels to a willing character with a kiss or other act of passion. She cannot combine this ability with her Queen's Kiss ability.

I think this is more a case of her "portfolio" of seduction than just high Charisma, so I'd hesitate to give something similar to all devils.  Plus, even the BoVD "true" versions of the archdevils don't have deflection bonuses to AC.

If you really want to give them all some other type of bonus, insight would be the best choice since that is what the BoVD versions of the archdevils possess.


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## Shroomy (Mar 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm fine with granting Amduscias a bonus similar to what Shroomy suggested, but we're still gonna have to face this with the other Dukes....
> 
> ....If you really want to give them all some other type of bonus, insight would be the best choice since that is what the BoVD versions of the archdevils possess.




I think it would be best to play it by ear.  The the dukes should all have natural armor bonuses in the +20-25 range (and higher in some cases), but there is going to be plenty of variation.  I'm sure some of the available descriptions will mention higher dexterity, armor, and shields, which should account for some of the AC.  Especially cunning dukes should probably get an insight bonus, especially beautiful or charismatic a deflection bonus, especially vile a profane bonus etc.  I think some flavorful supernatural or extraordinary abilities would be a good way to proceed from the 1e description to the 3.5e stats.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I think it would be best to play it by ear.  The the dukes should all have natural armor bonuses in the +20-25 range (and higher in some cases), but there is going to be plenty of variation.  I'm sure some of the available descriptions will mention higher dexterity, armor, and shields, which should account for some of the AC.  Especially cunning dukes should probably get an insight bonus, especially beautiful or charismatic a deflection bonus, especially vile a profane bonus etc.  I think some flavorful supernatural or extraordinary abilities would be a good way to proceed from the 1e description to the 3.5e stats.




As long as we tread cautiously...Asmodeus, the most charismatic of all devils, doesn't get a special bonus.   Same goes for Glasya, a bona fide "wicked hottie".     No existing devils, unique or otherwise, get a profane bonus.   

We can always look to other spell-like abilities that grant bonuses as well.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

I’m just trying to keep it simple… it doesn’t necessarily have to make sense.  

Part of the reason I want to give them all of them a uniform system of AC bonus is so that we don’t have to think about it every time, and discuss it, and come up with a separate idea for each one.  While, yes, it seems to make sense that there would be room for variation (and there is), we should at least establish a “base” sort of “this is what you get unless you have a good reason not to” sort of thing.  Be it a Wis-based insight bonus or Cha-based deflection bonus, or something like Unholy Aura, an SLA, or something else altogether, it would just make this whole process so much easier if we could rubber stamp it on each one.

I could easily see a Cha-based deflection bonus for devils, since charming and seductive is often the rule of the day.

I could perhaps even more easily see a Wis-based insight bonus for all.

I would be willing to say that we could alternate between the two (just to keep the Dukes from being too locked into place), either giving the higher bonus or just the one that makes the most sense.  I mainly don't want to stick them with too-high, easily-overcome natural AC bonuses.

For the AC bonus, I care less about what has been established for other lords, and more about what will make our job easier.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I could perhaps even more easily see a Wis-based insight bonus for all.




Very well.  I vote this option, as well as granting the occasional Duke unholy aura as an at will SLA.


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## Gothenem (Mar 20, 2007)

I'll second Shade's vote. Insight = to Wis works. If we come across a devil that we want to change around, we can, but we could use this as a standard rule.


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## Shroomy (Mar 20, 2007)

Sounds good.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

excellent.  

i gave some thought to the Alternate Form power.  let me know how this looks:

Alternate Form (Su): Amduscias can shift between his humanoid, unicorn, and wolf forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, he cannot use his bleeding wounds, constrict, improved grab, or rake abilities, but he can use his slams and bite attack and can use weapons. 

In unicorn form, he cannot use his constrict, improved grab, or rake abilities or make slam, bite, or weapon attacks, but he can use his horn and hoof attacks and his speed is 60 feet (12 squares).

In wolf form he cannot use his bleeding wounds ability, make slam attacks or use weapons, but he can use his constrict, improved grab, and rake abilities, his speed is 50 feet (10 squares), and he gains low-light vision, scent, and a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

(one question – should the alternate form attacks be listed on the main attack line, or under the Alternate Form description?)

Amduscias remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Amduscias revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals all forms simultaneously.


examples from the MM:

Alternate Form: quasit, imp, dragon (bronze, gold, silver), eladrins, lycanthropes, phasm

Change Shape: aranea, hound archon, barghest, doppelganger, rakshasa, slaad (green, gray, death)


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> In unicorn form, he cannot use his constrict, improved grab, or rake abilities or make slam, bite, or weapon attacks, but he can use his horn and hoof attacks and his speed is 60 feet (12 squares).




Change "horn" to "gore".



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> (one question – should the alternate form attacks be listed on the main attack line, or under the Alternate Form description?)




Either way should work.  The attack lines might get a bit cluttered, though.

Otherwise, it looks good.


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## Gothenem (Mar 20, 2007)

They sould go in the attack line. Though the full description as written should go in the description section, the actuall attack routines with attack bonus, damage, et. all should go in the attack line.

Looks good though


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> They sould go in the attack line. Though the full description as written should go in the description section, the actuall attack routines with attack bonus, damage, et. all should go in the attack line.




i could separate it all by colons...


also, unicorn says "horn" rather than "gore" - which should we go with?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> also, unicorn says "horn" rather than "gore" - which should we go with?




Odd...gore is the standard.

Saying "horn" is like saying "fist" instead of "slam".   Maybe it's because the unicorn's horn is treated as a magic item?


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

could be.  want to go with gore here anyway?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2007)

Probably.

I'm outta here.  See you all later next week!


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## Shroomy (Mar 20, 2007)

What stat block format are you going to use?  If you are going to use the new one, alternate forms get their own mini statblocks.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 20, 2007)

original 3.5 stat block, just to be a curmudgeon.  "we liked it that way!"

Shade is out for about a week, so i'll be here to respond whenever i can.

when i get a chance (maybe tonight, maybe not), i'll update in homebrews.


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## Gothenem (Mar 20, 2007)

Were we thinking of submitting these guys? If so, we sould do the new statblock. If not, then lets be Curmudgeony!!!!!!!


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## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 21, 2007)

one more time - no, not submitting to Dragon.    at least, not anytime soon.

curmudgeon powers - away!!!


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## BOZ (Mar 25, 2007)

OK, i'm back.  first thing's first, updated in homebrews.  worked on some flavor text - hope you like it!


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## Gothenem (Mar 25, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> An opponent can attack Amduscias’s tail with a sunder attempt as if it were a weapon. Amduscias’s tail has 15 hit points. If Amduscias is currently grappling a target with the tail, he usually uses another limb to make his attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing Amduscias’s tail deals (X) points of damage to Amduscias. (Amduscias regrows a severed tail in (X) days. – probably don’t need this part due to regeneration)




We don't need the number of days for regening the tail. That is covered in regeneration.

I recommend severing the tail deal 7 points of damage to Amduscias. That is half the total hit points of the tail.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Constrict (Ex): Amduscias deals 1d8+10? points of damage with a successful grapple check.




1d8 sounds good. Most constrict attacks I've seen are Str x 1.5 though, so 1d8+15 would be the appropriate number. IIRC.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, Amduscias must hit with his tail attack. He can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If he wins the grapple check, he establishes a hold and can constrict.
> 
> An opponent can attack Amduscias's tail with a sunder attempt as if it were a weapon. Amduscias's tail has 15 hit points. If Amduscias is currently grappling a target with the his tail, he usually uses another limb to make his attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing Amduscias's tail deals X points of damage to him. If severed, Amduscias can reattach his tail instantly by holding it to the stump.




The second paragraph is in the description twice? Is there a reason for this?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Rake (Ex): Wolf form only; attack bonus +X melee, damage XdX+X.




I would recommend 1d6+5 for damage. Same as the front claws. That seems to be fairly standard. +33 would be the attack bonus, I believe.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> telekinesis (5,000 g.p. maximum weight – fix that, DC 23+spl lvl);




I see no reason to even worry about a limit. Just let it act like the _telekinesis_ spell normally does. Spell Level 5th, so the DC is 28.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Amduscias can attempt to summon 1d3 abishai (of any color) with a 70% chance of success or attempt to summon one aspect of Tiamat (see Races of the Dragon, pXX) with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).




Dragon Magic page 110.

I couldn't find Aspect of Tiamat in Races of the Dragon. Only the Aspect of Bahamut. Did I miss it?

That's it for now.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 26, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> The second paragraph is in the description twice? Is there a reason for this?




not a good one.     it doesn't need to be under Improved Grab.[/quote]



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> I couldn't find Aspect of Tiamat in Races of the Dragon. Only the Aspect of Bahamut. Did I miss it?




no idea - other folks told me it was in that book, i think.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 26, 2007)

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=191872

looks like in 1E, "gp weight" was 10 gp per pound.  so therefore, "5000 gp weight" would be 500 lbs (why they couldn't just say it that way, i don't know).  given that the spell maxes out at 375 lbs, we can go one of two ways.  one, would be the simple way - just let the spell do what it does.  two, would be to say "as telekineses" but bump the maximum up to 500 lbs.

method one would be easer; method two would make things more interesting but may be unnecessary.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 26, 2007)

I would say unecessary. We would have to almost re-write a chunk of text to include it. Many other creatures had such limits in 1E, and they were dropped. I'd say use the spell as  written, with its 375 pound limit. 

Also, in 3rd ed. 50 gp = 1 pound, so that would make it 100 lbs. 
I don't like that one either!!


----------



## Kafkonia (Mar 26, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> no idea - other folks told me it was in that book, i think.




I think there's one in the Minis HB, but I'm at work so I can't confirm.


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 27, 2007)

Aspect of Tiamat appeared in Dragon Magic, Red Hand of Doom, Miniatures Handbook and the FCII Web Enhancement.

I think we should go with the Dragon Magic version, and also point out that stats can also be found in those other sources.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Mar 29, 2007)

OK, looking over what I posted in Homebrews to see what items need finishing…

Organization: Do we want to include a simple retinue?  Like Amdu plus X abishai or something?

Treasure: Double or triple standard?  Double should probably suffice.

Severing the tail: deals 7 hp to Amdu?  And we can skip the regrow part d/t regen?

SLA: what caster level do we want to work with?  20 for all of these guys, or shall we be more specific, like CL=HD?
I fixed the DCs, and for clarification one more time we want to just go with straight up telekinesis correct?

Did we decide what weapons we were going to give him in human form?  I mean magical properties and such; I already see dagger and short sword listed in the attack line.

Other than that minor stuff, and settling on a CR, we’re looking pretty good… sorry I’ve been so slow with this one, entirely due to my procrastinating.


----------



## Shade (Mar 30, 2007)

I'm back from vacation and thought I'd pop in briefly.    

First, I agree that we needn't worry about the old weight limit for telekinesis.  Let the caster level determine the result as normal.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Organization: Do we want to include a simple retinue?  Like Amdu plus X abishai or something?




Sounds good.  Maybe Amdu plus 1d8 abishai of mixed colors?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Treasure: Double or triple standard?  Double should probably suffice.




Probably so.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Severing the tail: deals 7 hp to Amdu?  And we can skip the regrow part d/t regen?




Sounds good on both counts.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> SLA: what caster level do we want to work with?  20 for all of these guys, or shall we be more specific, like CL=HD?




I'd stick with 20.  The FC1 and 2 archfiends stick with 20.  The Demonomicon varies, but even Dagon only is CL 24 at CR 30.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I fixed the DCs, and for clarification one more time we want to just go with straight up telekinesis correct?




Sounds like a plan.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Did we decide what weapons we were going to give him in human form?  I mean magical properties and such; I already see dagger and short sword listed in the attack line.




I had suggested the following:  

Humanoid Form: Fights with dagger (should have wounding to carry over from his unicorn form. It could even look like a unicorn horn) and short sword (unholy is always a safe bet. Dragonbane might be useful for keeping Tiamat's renegade servants and Bahamut's minions in line)


----------



## Gothenem (Mar 31, 2007)

how about a +2 wounding dagger and a +2 unholy shortsword?? Just to be on the safe side


----------



## Shade (Apr 1, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> how about a +2 wounding dagger and a +2 unholy shortsword?? Just to be on the safe side




That works for me.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 2, 2007)

glad to have you back!  

updating in homebrews.  this guy's looking pretty badass now!  what else needs to be done?  everything looking good?

how about the CR?  is he looking up towards the 23 or down to 21, or can we settle in between?


----------



## Shade (Apr 2, 2007)

I'd stick with CR 21.  He's not much deadlier than Bel.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 2, 2007)

Agreed. 21 seems the right place for him.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 4, 2007)

good deal - he's a tough fight, but the dukes' personal power level is much less than that of the archdevils.  

updating in homebrews - what else needs a-fixin'?


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Going through it...

Speed: Add "(6 squares)"

For the attacks, we need to add the threat ranges for the dagger and short sword, like and account for his weapon's "plusses" to damage...

Attack: Slam +35 melee (1d6+10); +2 wounding dagger +33 melee (1d4+12/19-20 plus wounding); or gore +35 melee (1d8+10 plus bleeding wounds); or bite +35 melee (1d8+10/19-20)
Full Attack: 2 slams +35 melee (1d6+10) and bite +37 melee (1d8+5/19-20); or +2 wounding dagger +33 melee (1d4+12/19-20 plus wounding) and +2 unholy short sword +28 melee (1d6+7/19-20 plus 2d6 vs. good foes) and bite +31 melee (1d8+5/19-20); or gore +35 melee (1d8+10 plus bleeding wounds) and 2 hooves +33 melee (1d6+5); or bite +35 melee (1d8+10/19-20) and 2 claws +33 melee (1d6+5) and tail +33 melee (1d8+5 plus constrict)

Special Attacks: Change "summon devils" to "summon baatezu"

Organization: Solitary (plus X assorted abishai)...we need an amount.  1d6?

Add:  Amduscias's natural weapons, as well as any weapons he wields, are treated as evil-aligned and lawful-aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.

Following the standard for creatures with Quicken SLA...

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 20th)
At will—charm monster (DC 27), discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, suggestion (DC 26), telekinesis (DC 28);
3/day—quickened fire shield (either version);
1/day—dominate monster (DC 32), symbol of stunning (DC 30).



> Unicorn form:
> Attack: Horn +X melee (1d8+X vile plus bleeding wounds)
> Full Attack: Horn +X melee (1d8+X vile plus bleeding wounds and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d6+X)




We can drop this now that it's on the attack line.



> Humanoid Form: Fights with dagger (should have wounding to carry over from his unicorn form. It could even look like a unicorn horn) and short sword (unholy is always a safe bet. Dragonbane might be useful for keeping Tiamat's renegade servants and Bahamut's minions in line)




We need to clean this up.  Perhaps "In humanoid form, Amduscias wields a +2 wounding dagger that resebmbles his unicorn horn, as well as a +2 unholy short sword."



> Bolt (Ex): When in his unicorn form, Amduscias can Run as a move action. (can we define this a little better?)




What is the normal action required to run?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> What is the normal action required to run?




full-round action - PHB p 144


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

In that case, does this sound better?

Bolt (Ex): When in his unicorn form, Amduscias can Run as a move action, rather than a full-round action.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 4, 2007)

yes!     updating one more time in homebrews.  any further issues, or are we ready to move on?  (be honest!)


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Two things:

On Organization line, I think "1d6 abishai of assorted colors" sounds better.

Also, on the Feats line, we have Vile Natural Attack (horn).  We need to change "horn" to "gore" to match the attack lines.   Then, on the gore attacks on the attack line, add "plus 1 vile" to the end of the damage.

Other than that, I think we're done!


----------



## BOZ (Apr 4, 2007)

cool, i'll add that stuff in.  

time to move on!  this guy should take a lot less time to finish, since he doesn't have so many abilities going on.  


MALPHAS (Duke of Hell)

FREQUENCY: Unique (very rare)
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -3
MOVE: 12”/30” (in crow form)
HIT DICE: 90 hit points
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type +5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 70%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
SIZE: See below
PSIONIC ABILITY: 220
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Malphas is a duke in the service of Tiamat, ruler of Avernus. He leads 40 companies of abishai, and, like his fellow duke Amduscias and the pit fiend Goap, is likely to be found traveling about Avernus enforcing Tiamat’s will. None of Tiamat’s dukes have permanent encampments or fortresses, but instead they maintain a commonly held system of guarded, “safe” caves where their forces can rest or gather.

Malphas appears as a powerful, dark-complexioned man dressed in black velvet studded with gems (of considerable value; his robes have 333 gems of all sorts, 100 g.p. base value each, if recovered complete), or as a large, black, crow-like bird.

Malphas shuns armor, and fights with all weapons (and his spell-like powers) when in human form. His voice is deep and compelling, and with his powers of tongues and ESP (usable at will), he is adept at deceiving others, particularly non-devils. He may carry treasure of any type if encountered in human form.

Once per round, at will, Malphas can use one of his spell-like powers: tongues or ESP (as noted above), pyrotechnics, produce flame, fortress (this creates a structure similar to Daern’s Instant Fortress - see the DMG - in all respects, save that its door will open and close for anyone, and it will disappear in 16 turns or when Malphas wills), detect invisibility, read magic, dispel magic, flame arrow (Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself or others; these become flame tongue swords - fiery damage, but no “to hit” bonuses - for 3 rounds), and remove (or bestow) curse. Once per day Malphas can use a symbol of pain, and he can cause fear (save vs. spell at -2 to avoid) by touch (one target per round). He can summon 1-2 abishai, with a 55% chance of success, at will. Malphas regenerates 2 hit points per round.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Following the formula for a Duke of Hell:

Hit Dice: Chart will determine how the HD converts, characters with * have a chance to “move up” one.  *Malphas is listed as 25*.*

Armor Class: Total AC will be equal to CR +18 – 1E AC (which, of course, are all negative numbers). AC minus Dex mod, bonus from items, and misc bonuses = Natural AC bonus.   *Malphas is listed as -3.*

Special Attacks: Spell-like abilities, summon devils
Special Qualities: DR 20/good and silver, regeneration (5-8?), immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, see in darkness, SR 13+CR, telepathy 100 ft.
Abilities: We will use the divine array of 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, plus adding one ability point per four Hit Dice, and borrowing liberally as we see fit. Many lords will end up with one score under 20.  *I'd arrange them in this order:  Cha, Dex, Str, Wis, Con, Int.*

Challenge Rating: Will be determined on an individual basis once completed. Most will be between 21-25.
Treasure: Double or triple standard as appropriate  *He looks like a triple standard.*

Languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, plus more as appropriate.  *Tongues takes care of the need

Regeneration (Ex): Good weapons, and spells and effects with the good descriptor, deal normal damage to ARCH. If ARCH loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes. ARCH can reaattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.

See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.


Common Feats  Assuming 25 HD, Mal gets 9, 2 of which can be epic.

Common: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Weapon Focus

Less Common: Combat Reflexes, Dilate Aura, Negotiator, Spring Attack, Violate Spell-Like Ability

Uncommon: Ability Focus, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Vile Natural Attack

I bolded the common skills I think he'd most use:

Appraise = mid to high ranks
Balance = low to mid ranks when used
Bluff = usually max ranks
Climb = high to max ranks when used
Concentration = mid to high ranks
Diplomacy = usually max ranks
Disguise = high ranks or synergy only 
Escape Artist = few ranks 
Gather Information = mid to high ranks when used
Hide = mid to high ranks
Intimidate = high to max ranks
Jump = mid to high ranks 
Knowledge (arcana) = high to max ranks 
Knowledge (history) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (nobility and royalty) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (religion) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (the planes) = high to max ranks
Listen = high to max ranks
Move Silently = mid to high ranks
Search = mid to high ranks
Sense Motive = high to max ranks
Spellcraft = high to max ranks
Spot = high to max ranks
Survival = synergy only
Tumble = high to max ranks 
Use Rope = synergy only




			
				BOZ said:
			
		


			Malphas shuns armor, and fights with all weapons (and his spell-like powers) when in human form. His voice is deep and compelling, and with his powers of tongues and ESP (usable at will), he is adept at deceiving others, particularly non-devils. He may carry treasure of any type if encountered in human form.

Once per round, at will, Malphas can use one of his spell-like powers: tongues or ESP (as noted above), pyrotechnics, produce flame, fortress (this creates a structure similar to Daern’s Instant Fortress - see the DMG - in all respects, save that its door will open and close for anyone, and it will disappear in 16 turns or when Malphas wills), detect invisibility, read magic, dispel magic, flame arrow (Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself or others; these become flame tongue swords - fiery damage, but no “to hit” bonuses - for 3 rounds), and remove (or bestow) curse. Once per day Malphas can use a symbol of pain,
		
Click to expand...



I think tongues (and possibly detect thoughts) should be always active as a Su ability.

I think Fortress and flaming blade should be separate Su abilities.

At will—bestow curse, detect thoughts (if not always active), dispel magic, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility; 
1/day—symbol of pain.

All have archdevils have...
At will—dispel magic/greater dispel magic, greater teleport;

He's got dispel magic covered, needs greater teleport.

Most have:
At will—charm monster, major image, see invisibility/true seeing, suggestion, wall of fire;

He's definitiely a charmer, has see invisibility, and should have suggestion.

Many have:
At will—fireball, wall of fire;
Unholy aura (3/day or 1/day)

I could see any of these, but wall of fire seems least likely.

Others used more than once: dominate person, dominate monster, fire storm, geas/quest, hellfire storm, hold monster, locate creature, locate object, meteor swarm, polymorph, scrying/greater scrying, unholy blight

Dominates and geas/quest seem highly appropriate for him.



			
				boz said:
			
		


			and he can cause fear (save vs. spell at -2 to avoid) by touch (one target per round). He can summon 1-2 abishai, with a 55% chance of success, at will. Malphas regenerates 2 hit points per round.
		
Click to expand...



Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 1d2 abishai (of any color) with a 55% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell (CL Xth).*


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

i would increase the percentage chance for him to summon Abishai. Its only 1-2 and he can only do it 1/day now, not at will.



			
				BOZ Almighty said:
			
		

> tongues or ESP (as noted above), pyrotechnics, produce flame, fortress (this creates a structure similar to Daern’s Instant Fortress - see the DMG - in all respects, save that its door will open and close for anyone, and it will disappear in 16 turns or when Malphas wills), detect invisibility, read magic, dispel magic, flame arrow (Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself or others; these become flame tongue swords - fiery damage, but no “to hit” bonuses - for 3 rounds), and remove (or bestow) curse. Once per day Malphas can use a symbol of pain




With all o' this, I would suggest the following SLA's:

At will - bestow curse, charm monster, detect thoughts (if not always active), dispel magic, fireball, greater teleport, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, suggestion, weapon of energy (fire only)
1/day - symbol of pain, unholy aura

Note that Weapon of Energy appears in the Spell Compendium


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> BOZ Almighty




Don't encourage him!


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

Shade Almighty said:
			
		

> Don't encourage him!




I'll try not to


----------



## Shroomy (Apr 4, 2007)

I was just wondering something after reading dear ol' Malphas statistics.  He has quite a bit of psionic potential.  I'm no longer familiar with the 1e psionic system, but is there anything to mine there?


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

Good Catch. I missed that. That could be the edge that he needs to actually be more than just a few SLA's in as humanoid devil.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Actually, nearly all the archfiends had psionics in 1E.  They dropped psionics from them universally in 3E, so we should probably maintain that course unless a being is clearly intended to be a psionic creature.   

If there's a Duke named Urigellerus who can bend spoons with his mind, I'd say he'd qualify.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 4, 2007)

Naahhhh, that would just qualify him for ...

*Spoon Bendage (Su):* This creature can bend spoons with nothing more than a thought. A spoon is allowed a Fortitude save (DC 10+½ creature's HD+Cha Mod) to resist being bent.


, Amud didn't have any psionics listed. But you are correct that most fiends did have it.


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2007)

Remember, _there is no spoon_.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Actually, nearly all the archfiends had psionics in 1E.  They dropped psionics from them universally in 3E, so we should probably maintain that course unless a being is clearly intended to be a psionic creature.




yep, and that's what we're sticking with unless there's a good reason to change.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hit Dice: Chart will determine how the HD converts, characters with * have a chance to “move up” one.  *Malphas is listed as 25*.*




hmm.  in 1E, Amdu had just a *little* more hp than Mal, so i think i'd like to keep Mal at 25.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Abilities: We will use the divine array of 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, plus adding one ability point per four Hit Dice, and borrowing liberally as we see fit. Many lords will end up with one score under 20.  *I'd arrange them in this order:  Cha, Dex, Str, Wis, Con, Int.*




so Str 25, Dex 28, Con 24, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35 plus 6 more points?

yeah, he's definitely less of a combat badass than Amdu, so that sounds like a fine way to start.  he's another shapechanger and charmer, so the Cha should be highest (i'd expect him to have a lower Cha than Amdu, so let's leave it at 35).  i could see the remaining points going into Str, Wis, and Con.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Treasure: Double or triple standard as appropriate  *He looks like a triple standard.*




he's definitely about the bling.    i'd list his clothing separately as an item of great value.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Languages: Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal, plus more as appropriate.  *Tongues takes care of the need*



*

Tongues (Su): Malphas can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level Xth). This ability is always active.


i'll get into the feats, skills, and SLAs a little later.  



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		


			he can cause fear (save vs. spell at -2 to avoid) by touch (one target per round).
		
Click to expand...



aha!  now see, that's what i was talking about before, each of these guys causes fear with a different attack mode.  we could consider Ability Focus perhaps.

Fear Touch (Su): On a successful touch attack, an affected creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or be (frightened?) for X rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.*


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 5, 2007)

I'd actually like to make his robe magical, give him some bonuses and the like.

As for the way they write the fear effect in 1st ed. It seems to be like the _fear_ spell. Maybe use that

Fear Touch (Su): On a successful touch attack, an affected creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or be affected as if by a _fear_ spell as cast by a 20th-level caster. The save DC is Charisma-based.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm.  in 1E, Amdu had just a *little* more hp than Mal, so i think i'd like to keep Mal at 25.




Sounds good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> so Str 25, Dex 28, Con 24, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35 plus 6 more points?




Yep.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, he's definitely less of a combat badass than Amdu, so that sounds like a fine way to start.  he's another shapechanger and charmer, so the Cha should be highest (i'd expect him to have a lower Cha than Amdu, so let's leave it at 35).  i could see the remaining points going into Str, Wis, and Con.




Actually, I'd argue for the remaining points to go into Dex before Str.  He seems more like a finesse man to me, what with fighting unarmored and whatnot.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> he's definitely about the bling.    i'd list his clothing separately as an item of great value.






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> I'd actually like to make his robe magical, give him some bonuses and the like.




Sounds good on both counts.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Tongues (Su): Malphas can speak with any creature that has a language, as though using a tongues spell (caster level Xth). This ability is always active.




Cool.  Might as well go with CL 20th.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'll get into the feats, skills, and SLAs a little later.




Okee dookee.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> aha!  now see, that's what i was talking about before, each of these guys causes fear with a different attack mode.  we could consider Ability Focus perhaps.
> 
> Fear Touch (Su): On a successful touch attack, an affected creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or be (frightened?) for X rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> As for the way they write the fear effect in 1st ed. It seems to be like the fear spell. Maybe use that
> 
> Fear Touch (Su): On a successful touch attack, an affected creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or be affected as if by a fear spell as cast by a 20th-level caster. The save DC is Charisma-based.




Agreed.  In fact, a monster I used just the other night in game was written exactly this way.   I think it was the Weaver from last month's Dragon.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Actually, I'd argue for the remaining points to go into Dex before Str.  He seems more like a finesse man to me, what with fighting unarmored and whatnot.




i'd actually argue that he probably should have been stronger than Amduscias; Amdu was supposed to have merely had "above average strength" while Malphas deals damage "By weapon type +5" - still, everything's relative and that's cool by me either way.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Sounds good on both counts.




we could give the robe some magic, sure (in fact, i had thought it had some, but was disappointed to find it didn't), but nothing major like an artifact.  maybe give it the power of 2-3 different types of cloak/robe?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Cool.  Might as well go with CL 20th.




even though Amdu only cast tongues as CL 14?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed.  In fact, a monster I used just the other night in game was written exactly this way.   I think it was the Weaver from last month's Dragon.




Gothenem's idea is fine by me.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i'd actually argue that he probably should have been stronger than Amduscias; Amdu was supposed to have merely had "above average strength" while Malphas deals damage "By weapon type +5" - still, everything's relative and that's cool by me either way.




You could split the extra points evenly between Dex and Str.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> we could give the robe some magic, sure (in fact, i had thought it had some, but was disappointed to find it didn't), but nothing major like an artifact.  maybe give it the power of 2-3 different types of cloak/robe?




Sounds good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> even though Amdu only cast tongues as CL 14?




Heh...That's fine, as it was good enough from whatever we copied it from in the first place.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> You could split the extra points evenly between Dex and Str.




we certainly could - Str 28, Dex 31, Con 24, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35 sound fine?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Heh...That's fine, as it was good enough from whatever we copied it from in the first place.




of course, i'm starting to think that maybe Mal shouldn't have it constantly on.  witness:
"Amduscias can speak and understand perfectly any language (cf. tongues spell)."
Malphas' "voice is deep and compelling, and with his powers of tongues and ESP (usable at will), he is adept at deceiving others, particularly non-devils."

maybe for Malphas, the tongues should be an ordinary at will SLA, along with detect thoughts.


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> we certainly could - Str 28, Dex 31, Con 24, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 35 sound fine?




Sounds good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> of course, i'm starting to think that maybe Mal shouldn't have it constantly on.  witness:
> "Amduscias can speak and understand perfectly any language (cf. tongues spell)."
> Malphas' "voice is deep and compelling, and with his powers of tongues and ESP (usable at will), he is adept at deceiving others, particularly non-devils."
> 
> maybe for Malphas, the tongues should be an ordinary at will SLA, along with detect thoughts.




That's fine.  Mechanically, it makes little difference, though.  But flavor-wise it might be more appropriate.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 5, 2007)

yep, Mal's not the diplomat that Amdu is.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 6, 2007)

Agreed on the tongues and detect thoughts.



			
				Aspect of BOZ Almighty said:
			
		

> yep, Mal's not the diplomat that Amdu is.



No Negotiator for you! [Insert Soup Nazi voice....for the feat Nazi]


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> MOVE: 12”/30” (in crow form)
> 
> Malphas appears as a powerful, dark-complexioned man dressed in black velvet studded with gems (of considerable value; his robes have 333 gems of all sorts, 100 g.p. base value each, if recovered complete), or as a large, black, crow-like bird.




Not much detail on the crow form.  He can apparently fly at a speed of 80 feet.

When they say "*large*, black, crow-like bird", do you think that means large in the size category sense, or simply "a big normal bird"?

If the former, we could use the stats for the giant raven from Frostburn.  Otherwise, we can go with the normal raven stats in the MM.   Neither form flies that fast, though.  Alternatively, we could use the stats for a giant eagle (which does fly at 80 feet) for simplicity's sake.

There's always the option of allowing to take the form of raven of either size, too.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Apr 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Not much detail on the crow form.  He can apparently fly at a speed of 80 feet.
> 
> When they say "*large*, black, crow-like bird", do you think that means large in the size category sense, or simply "a big normal bird"?
> 
> ...





When we did Malphas for Gates of Hell, we sort of incorporated crow/raven traits into his normal form.  Sort of, but not quite fully, an anthropomorphic raven.  Almost all of those old devils were taken from real life religious myth, and had bizzare forms.  So I guess I'm sort of suggesting, drop the crow as an alternate form and work it into his physical description.

On the other hand, I think using the giant eagle would be the best route if you were set on the crow form.  It has the advantage of speed AND being core SRD.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Not much detail on the crow form.  He can apparently fly at a speed of 80 feet.
> 
> When they say "*large*, black, crow-like bird", do you think that means large in the size category sense, or simply "a big normal bird"?
> 
> ...




for the sake of reference, back then you really only had three size categories: S, M, and L.  M (which was "man-sized" rather than Medium) was 5-7' tall and within the approximate build and mass of a human.  S meant smaller than that, and L meant larger than that.

however, in this case, i'm inclined to think that they simply mean "larger than a normal crow".  i'm thinking to make him a Medium sized bird, and maybe a 7-foot tall humanoid.

should we go with Alternate Form or Change Shape?

Alternate Form: quasit, imp, dragon (bronze, gold, silver), eladrins, lycanthropes, phasm

Change Shape: aranea, hound archon, barghest, doppelganger, rakshasa, slaad (green, gray, death)

note that what creature(s) we copy from isn't all that important, because Mal won't have the exact same stats in that form anyway.  rather than say that he has the stats of a giant raven (for example), it's more like he has his own normal stats but borrows a few abilities in his other form.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> When we did Malphas for Gates of Hell, we sort of incorporated crow/raven traits into his normal form.  Sort of, but not quite fully, an anthropomorphic raven.  Almost all of those old devils were taken from real life religious myth, and had bizzare forms.  So I guess I'm sort of suggesting, drop the crow as an alternate form and work it into his physical description.




nah, i'll leave reimaging/reinventing these guys up to you guys at DF.    to keep it easy on myself, i just stick with reinterpreting the D&D material.  getting results using different methods means that DMs can choose which version suits them better - or they can create their own version which may be an amalgam of the two or none of the above.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2007)

I'd go with alternate form.   Change shape seems to most often be used for changing into multiple possible forms (Small humanoids) as opposed to a more specific, same-form-every-time change.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Apr 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd go with alternate form.   Change shape seems to most often be used for changing into multiple possible forms (Small humanoids) as opposed to a more specific, same-form-every-time change.





I agree with alternate form here for the ability over change shape, for the exact reason Shade mentions.  And I didn't think about him keeping his same stats in the form.  Oops.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 6, 2007)

cool.    his alternate form power will undoubtedly be a lot simpler than Amdu's for 2 reasons: 1), he only has one other form, and 2) he has a lot fewer powers.  

in fact - is there anything we need to worry about other than him not using weapons as a raven, and being able to fly in raven form?  is there anything else we want to carry over besides flight speed?  maybe a vision-related power?

Alternate Form (Su): Malphas can shift between his humanoid and raven forms as a standard action. In humanoid form, he cannot use his ... abilities, but he can use ... and can use weapons. 

In raven form, he cannot use his ... abilities or make weapon attacks, but he can use ... and his fly speed is 80 feet (16 squares).

Malphas remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Malphas revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals all forms simultaneously.


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2007)

Well, normal ravens get nothing special.

Giant ravens get evasion and a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks during daylight hours.

I'm not sure if he really needs that, though.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Apr 6, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> cool.    his alternate form power will undoubtedly be a lot simpler than Amdu's for 2 reasons: 1), he only has one other form, and 2) he has a lot fewer powers.
> 
> in fact - is there anything we need to worry about other than him not using weapons as a raven, and being able to fly in raven form?  is there anything else we want to carry over besides flight speed?  maybe a vision-related power?
> 
> ...





I would say that in humanoid form, he can only use weapons and the natural attacks of that form (if any).

In raven form, he can only use the natural attacks of the raven form.  He can fly in raven form.

In either form, he can use his spell-like abilities.  (Does he have any supernatural/special attack forms that we're giving him that don't make sense for a raven form to use?  His fear attack seems fine for a raven to use....the birds are often described as unsettling)

True seeing should reveal 'both' forms, since there are only two.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2007)

so just claw/claw/bite in raven form?

yeah, his SLAs and fear touch should work fine in either form, as would summoning i'd imagine.  unlike Amduscias, i don't see any abilities (besides attacks) that wouldn't work equally well in both forms.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2007)

so, with an Int of 24, he gets 420 skill ranks, maaaan...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I bolded the common skills I think he'd most use:
> 
> *Appraise = mid to high ranks*
> Balance = low to mid ranks when used
> ...




OK, so how about Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (at least two), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Tumble?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think tongues (and possibly detect thoughts) should be always active as a Su ability.
> 
> I think Fortress and flaming blade should be separate Su abilities.
> 
> ...








			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> With all o' this, I would suggest the following SLA's:
> 
> At will - bestow curse, charm monster, detect thoughts (if not always active), dispel magic, fireball, greater teleport, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, suggestion, weapon of energy (fire only)
> 1/day - symbol of pain, unholy aura
> ...




OK, so we start with these at minimum, working from Dragon #75 plus greater teleport:
Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 20th?)
  At will - bestow curse (DC X), detect thoughts (DC X), dispel magic, greater teleport. produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, tongues:
(charm monster (DC 27), discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, suggestion (DC 26), telekinesis (DC 28)
  1/day - symbol of pain (DC X).
(dominate monster (DC 32), symbol of stunning (DC 30).)


I’ll agree on charm monster and suggestion at will, and also dominate person and unholy aura 1/day.  How about locate creature?




			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> fortress (this creates a structure similar to Daern’s Instant Fortress - see the DMG - in all respects, save that its door will open and close for anyone, and it will disappear in 16 turns or when Malphas wills)






			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> flame arrow (Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself or others; these become flame tongue swords - fiery damage, but no “to hit” bonuses - for 3 rounds)




I absolutely agree with Shade that these need to be separate Su abilities.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 7, 2007)

Well, if we are going to make the flaming ability Su instead of Sp, then it should read something like:

Flaming Weapons (Su): As a standard action, Malphas can make any weapon he wields a flaming burst weapon. This effect lasts for three rounds.

Caster level 20th seems fine.

The Fortress ability, well ...



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Instant Fortress
> 
> This metal cube is small, but when activated by speaking a command word it grows to form a tower 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens only at the command of the owner of the fortress—even knock spells can’t open the door.
> 
> ...




Thus

Infernal Fortress (Su): Malphas can create a hellish tower 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens to anyone.
The adamantine walls of the infernal fortress have 100 hit points and hardness 20.
The fortress springs up in just 1 round, with the door facing Malphas. People and creatures nearby (except Malphas) must be careful not to be caught by the fortress’s sudden growth. Anyone so caught takes 10d10 points of damage (Reflex DC X half).
The infernal fortress lasts for 16 minutes, or until Malphas wills the fortress to go (a standard action).


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so just claw/claw/bite in raven form?
> 
> yeah, his SLAs and fear touch should work fine in either form, as would summoning i'd imagine.  unlike Amduscias, i don't see any abilities (besides attacks) that wouldn't work equally well in both forms.




That sounds about right.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so, with an Int of 24, he gets 420 skill ranks, maaaan...
> 
> OK, so how about Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (at least two), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Tumble?




I'd go with Knowledge (the planes) and Knowledge (religion), since he works for Tiamat.   The others look good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, so we start with these at minimum, working from Dragon #75 plus greater teleport:
> Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 20th?)
> At will - bestow curse (DC X), detect thoughts (DC X), dispel magic, greater teleport. produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, tongues:
> (charm monster (DC 27), discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, suggestion (DC 26), telekinesis (DC 28)
> ...




I'm fine with or without locate creature.   I agree with the rest.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree with Shade that these need to be separate Su abilities.






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Well, if we are going to make the flaming ability Su instead of Sp, then it should read something like:
> 
> Flaming Weapons (Su): As a standard action, Malphas can make any weapon he wields a flaming burst weapon. This effect lasts for three rounds.




Looks good.  Do we want to add that if separated from Malphas, the weapons lose their flaming burst quality?



			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> The Fortress ability, well ...
> 
> Infernal Fortress (Su): Malphas can create a hellish tower 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens to anyone.
> 
> ...




I'd make the save DC Charisma-based.


----------



## Gothenem (Apr 9, 2007)

Yeah, you can add the "if seperated" clause for Flaming weapon.

Charisma for the Infernal fortress seems ok to me.

For flavour, do we want to change the makeup of the tower to Baatorian Greensteel instead of Adamantine (keep hardness and hp the same).


----------



## Shade (Apr 9, 2007)

Gothenem said:
			
		

> For flavour, do we want to change the makeup of the tower to Baatorian Greensteel instead of Adamantine (keep hardness and hp the same).




I like this.   Alot.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 16, 2007)

Hey all!  I’m back.  Had a lot of RL stuff to deal with, most of which is over now.  



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> fortress (this creates a structure similar to Daern’s Instant Fortress - see the DMG - in all respects, save that its door will open and close for anyone, and it will disappear in 16 turns or when Malphas wills)






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Instant Fortress
> 
> This metal cube is small, but when activated by speaking a command word it grows to form a tower 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens only at the command of the owner of the fortress—even knock spells can’t open the door.
> 
> ...






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Thus
> 
> Infernal Fortress (Su): Malphas can create a hellish tower 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens to anyone.
> The adamantine walls of the infernal fortress have 100 hit points and hardness 20.
> ...






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Charisma for the Infernal fortress seems ok to me.
> 
> For flavour, do we want to change the makeup of the tower to Baatorian Greensteel instead of Adamantine (keep hardness and hp the same).




Sure, that sounds like a good innovation.    modifying Gothenem’s ability somewhat.  Note that I don’t particularly like the “16 minute” duration, despite the fact that it matches the original text.    make it 10 or 20 minutes and that feels better.  Or even longer.

Infernal Fortress (Su): Malphas can cause a hellish tower of Baatorian green steel to come into being as a standard action.  This tower is 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens for anyone.

The walls of the infernal fortress have 100 hit points and hardness 20.

The fortress springs up in just 1 round, with the door facing Malphas. People and creatures nearby (except Malphas) must be careful not to be caught by the fortress’s sudden growth. Anyone so caught takes 10d10 points of damage (Reflex DC 34 half).  The save DC is Charisma-based.

The infernal fortress lasts for (16 minutes), or until Malphas dismisses the fortress as a standard action.  Any beings inside the fortress when it disappears are expelled harmlessly.





			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> flame arrow (Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself or others; these become flame tongue swords - fiery damage, but no “to hit” bonuses - for 3 rounds)






			
				Gothenem said:
			
		

> Well, if we are going to make the flaming ability Su instead of Sp, then it should read something like:
> 
> Flaming Weapons (Su): As a standard action, Malphas can make any weapon he wields a flaming burst weapon. This effect lasts for three rounds.
> 
> Caster level 20th seems fine.




First of all, I think the question is, which should we go with, the flaming burst property…



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Flaming Burst
> A flaming burst weapon functions as a flaming weapon that also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit. The fire does not harm the wielder. In addition to the extra fire damage from the flaming ability (see above), a flaming burst weapon deals an extra 1d10 points of fire damage on a successful critical hit. If the weapon’s critical multiplier is ×3, add an extra 2d10 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is ×4, add an extra 3d10 points of fire damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings so crafted bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.
> 
> Even if the flaming ability is not active, the weapon still deals its extra fire damage on a successful critical hit.




…or, more like the original description, flame arrow for projectiles and flame tongue for melee weapons?



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Flame Arrow
> Transmutation [Fire]
> Level: Sor/Wiz 3
> Components: V, S, M
> ...






			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Flame Tongue
> This is a +1 flaming burst longsword. Once per day, the sword can blast forth a fiery ray at any target within 30 feet as a ranged touch attack. The ray deals 4d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Looks good. Do we want to add that if separated from Malphas, the weapons lose their flaming burst quality?




Oh, absolutely.


----------



## Shade (Apr 16, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Hey all!  I’m back.  Had a lot of RL stuff to deal with, most of which is over now.




Got your taxes done, eh?    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Sure, that sounds like a good innovation.    modifying Gothenem’s ability somewhat.  Note that I don’t particularly like the “16 minute” duration, despite the fact that it matches the original text.    make it 10 or 20 minutes and that feels better.  Or even longer.
> 
> Infernal Fortress (Su): Malphas can cause a hellish tower of Baatorian green steel to come into being as a standard action.  This tower is 20 feet square and 30 feet high, with arrow slits on all sides and a crenellated battlement atop it. The metal walls extend 10 feet into the ground, rooting it to the spot and preventing it from being tipped over. The fortress has a small door that opens for anyone.
> 
> ...




Rounding up to 20 minutes sounds fine, or you could simplify it even further to 1 hour.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> First of all, I think the question is, which should we go with, the flaming burst property…
> 
> …or, more like the original description, flame arrow for projectiles and flame tongue for melee weapons?




I vote for flaming burst for simplicity.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Apr 16, 2007)

I think it is double tapping if you go with both a 3 round duration AND a separation ends the effect clause.  I agree that flaming burst enchantment for simplicity works best...does he affect ammunition or the ranged weapon itself?  And can he throw a weapon affected by this power?


I would say that it should be a swift action for Malphas to activate, and it lasts until the weapon is separated from him.  Using the power on a ranged weapon simply bestows the effect onto the ammunition as normal.  Malphas can't use the power on a thrown weapon or a piece of ammunition because as it leaves his hand, it loses the enchantment.

As a creature whose CR should be 20 or higher, it would be suicide or impractical if he was forced to waste an entire standard action activating the ability for such a low damage increase.  One might consider him bestowing the epic flaming blast enchantment instead.  If it is an internal power, one doesn't need to worry about the PCs getting their hands on +6 weapons too soon, either.  But +3d6 fire damage, multiplied on a critical hit is actually worth Malphas spending an action to use (although I still think standard is too high unless the duration is indefinite).  An increase of 1d6 fire damage per round is not.


----------



## Shade (Apr 16, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> I think it is double tapping if you go with both a 3 round duration AND a separation ends the effect clause.  I agree that flaming burst enchantment for simplicity works best...does he affect ammunition or the ranged weapon itself?  And can he throw a weapon affected by this power?




Three rounds does seem awfully short for an epic being.  I'd go with affecting the ranged weapon itself, as it never leaves his hands.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> I would say that it should be a swift action for Malphas to activate, and it lasts until the weapon is separated from him.  Using the power on a ranged weapon simply bestows the effect onto the ammunition as normal.  Malphas can't use the power on a thrown weapon or a piece of ammunition because as it leaves his hand, it loses the enchantment.




Yeah, like that.    

Swift action is a good suggestion.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> As a creature whose CR should be 20 or higher, it would be suicide or impractical if he was forced to waste an entire standard action activating the ability for such a low damage increase.  One might consider him bestowing the epic flaming blast enchantment instead.  If it is an internal power, one doesn't need to worry about the PCs getting their hands on +6 weapons too soon, either.  But +3d6 fire damage, multiplied on a critical hit is actually worth Malphas spending an action to use (although I still think standard is too high unless the duration is indefinite).  An increase of 1d6 fire damage per round is not.




Not a bad idea, either.  We should look at his total damage output compared to his peers, and see how that relates.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Got your taxes done, eh?




i wish that was all i had to do!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Rounding up to 20 minutes sounds fine, or you could simplify it even further to 1 hour.




1 hour sounds fine.  since we're going with a different material, do we want to change the hardness and hit points?




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I vote for flaming burst for simplicity.






			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> I think it is double tapping if you go with both a 3 round duration AND a separation ends the effect clause. I agree that flaming burst enchantment for simplicity works best...does he affect ammunition or the ranged weapon itself? And can he throw a weapon affected by this power?






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Three rounds does seem awfully short for an epic being. I'd go with affecting the ranged weapon itself, as it never leaves his hands.




Hmm, something we’re missing from the original description: “Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself _or others_”.  Thus, maybe it’s good to just stick with a duration and leave out the ending on separation aspect.




			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> I would say that it should be a swift action for Malphas to activate, and it lasts until the weapon is separated from him. Using the power on a ranged weapon simply bestows the effect onto the ammunition as normal. Malphas can't use the power on a thrown weapon or a piece of ammunition because as it leaves his hand, it loses the enchantment.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, like that.
> 
> Swift action is a good suggestion.




I agree on the swift action, absolutely.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> As a creature whose CR should be 20 or higher, it would be suicide or impractical if he was forced to waste an entire standard action activating the ability for such a low damage increase. One might consider him bestowing the epic flaming blast enchantment instead. If it is an internal power, one doesn't need to worry about the PCs getting their hands on +6 weapons too soon, either. But +3d6 fire damage, multiplied on a critical hit is actually worth Malphas spending an action to use (although I still think standard is too high unless the duration is indefinite). An increase of 1d6 fire damage per round is not.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Not a bad idea, either. We should look at his total damage output compared to his peers, and see how that relates.




We could give him the epic version as a standard action, or the regular on a swift action; either sounds fine to me.  Regular flaming burst on a swift action sounds a bit accessible though. 

As a start:

Flaming Weapons (Su): As a swift action, Malphas can bestow the flaming burst quality on any weapon he touches. This effect lasts for (three rounds). 

Since the flaming burst property already states that the effect is imbued on ammunition, we can keep it simple like that.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Apr 18, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Hmm, something we’re missing from the original description: “Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself _or others_”.  Thus, maybe it’s good to just stick with a duration and leave out the ending on separation aspect.
> 
> 
> We could give him the epic version as a standard action, or the regular on a swift action; either sounds fine to me.  Regular flaming burst on a swift action sounds a bit accessible though.
> ...





A few things.  If you want to make him use epic material, it doesn't matter.  But some people seem to shun epic like it was the plague.  In which case, you can spell out exactly what Malphas does, without relying on 'design shortcuts' that refer to specific magical enhancement.  In which case you could have him imbue a weapon with anything from 1d6 to 15d12 fire damage.  If you consider fire resistance and its relative cost, resistance 30 is rather simple for epic parties to procur.  You have to decide whether the flavor of this ability is important, or if you want it to actually impact his CR.  At what I estimate to be a CR of 23ish, 3d6 to 4d6 is a minor power.  1d6/1d10 is not even worth factoring in...for CR purposes, anyways.  The ability to bless weapons with fiery properties might still be an important flavor aspect.  Now...if this damage was _hellfire_, and thus not subject to resistance/immunity, you could dip lower, to 2d6 I think.  Again, compare the average melee damage output between these higher level creatures, like wyrm dragons and pit fiends.  The average pit fiend has a full attack that deals an average of 105 points of damage, threatens a Con/death poison and disease.  That's HUGE.  CR 20 though.



Two.  A duration of 10 rounds or 1 minute seems to be more fitting and easier to run in combat, than 3 rounds.  This is more of a streamlined issue than a power level issue though.


So....in conclusion, I'd suggest the epic enchantment, or just say 'deals 4d6 points of additional (hell)fire damage'  I would suggest a swift action, and I would suggest a duration of 10 rounds.


----------



## Shade (Apr 18, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 1 hour sounds fine. since we're going with a different material, do we want to change the hardness and hit points?




Probably so.   Baatorian Green Steel is 30/12, whereas adamantine is 40/20.   Since the Fortress is normally 100/20, we could change it to 75/12, or we could just make it thicker, and go with 100/12.


Regarding the flaming weapons:

Any epic material in the SRD (including the blast properties) should be fair game.

Since all the original flavor says is that Malphas "fights with weapons" and his damage is "weapon +5", we've got a lot of wiggle room.   I'd suggest we go with the standard flaming blast for this ability, and we can modify his weapon properties to get the desired damage output.  Since he's only Medium, he'll probably need the extra damage to keep up.

In other words, I agree with the epic property as a swift action, and I too prefer 10 rounds/1 minute.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 24, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Baatorian Green Steel is 30/12, whereas adamantine is 40/20. Since the Fortress is normally 100/20, we could change it to 75/12, or we could just make it thicker, and go with 100/12.




100/12 sounds good for the infernal fortress – it will be thicker than a typical Daern’s – but we should have the hardness as appropriate for the material.

***

Ok, I thought about what Kain and Shade said.  Giving him 3d6 fire damage, even activating it as a swift action, should be no problem.  Sure, 3d6 may seem puny to someone with resistance 30, but don’t forget how sick the damage gets when a flaming burst weapon gets a crit – should be enough to overcome a 30 easily.

Here’s how I see it working: Mal is holding any weapon – whatever the weapon is, it doesn’t matter, maybe he picked it up off the ground after killing its previous owner.  Simply because he wills it to, the weapon becomes sheathed in flame that lasts for one minute.  The next round, his buddy Amduscias says “Hey, power me up!” so Mal sets his sword alight as well.  The next round, maybe Malphas is dual-wielding and wants to do more damage, so he sets his other weapon on fire.  Get it?  That’s how I’m reading it, flavor-wise, from the original description.  What I want is an ability that replicates those capabilities.  Like Kain said, we can even spell it out rather than have people look it up (I know Shade is usually also in favor of that sort of thing).  So, let me give that another try:

Flaming Weapons (Su): As a swift action, Malphas can cause a weapon he touches to become sheathed in fire; this fire does not harm the wielder.  The effect remains for 10 rounds.  The weapon deals an extra 3d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The weapon also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit, dealing an extra 3d6 points of fire damage.  If the weapon’s critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 6d6 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is x4, add an extra 12d6 points of fire damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings with this effect bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Apr 27, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Here’s how I see it working: Mal is holding any weapon – whatever the weapon is, it doesn’t matter, maybe he picked it up off the ground after killing its previous owner.  Simply because he wills it to, the weapon becomes sheathed in flame that lasts for one minute.  The next round, his buddy Amduscias says “Hey, power me up!” so Mal sets his sword alight as well.  The next round, maybe Malphas is dual-wielding and wants to do more damage, so he sets his other weapon on fire.  Get it?  That’s how I’m reading it, flavor-wise, from the original description.  What I want is an ability that replicates those capabilities.  Like Kain said, we can even spell it out rather than have people look it up (I know Shade is usually also in favor of that sort of thing).  So, let me give that another try:




This is exactly how I see it working myself.



> Flaming Weapons (Su): As a swift action, Malphas can cause a weapon he touches to become sheathed in fire; this fire does not harm the wielder.  The effect remains for 10 rounds.  The weapon deals an extra 3d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The weapon also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit, dealing an extra 3d6 points of fire damage.  If the weapon’s critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 6d6 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is x4, add an extra 12d6 points of fire damage. Bows, crossbows, and slings with this effect bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.





Ok, a few things.  You can simplify the critical talk by saying "this extra damage is multiplied on a successful critical hit as normal for the weapon type"  However, if you wanted to spell it out, it is actually 6d6 extra damage on a x2 multiplier, 9d6 extra on a x3 mulitplier and 12d6 extra on a x4 multiplier.  All of which are instead of the original 3d6 of course, not on top of it.


Oh and 6d6 fire damage (the typical extra damage on a critical hit) is an average of 21 points of damage.  Max of 36 points.  Fire resistance 30 is pretty much going to laugh at that.  I'm not suggesting we make it more powerful though.  I'm just pointing it out so we are clear on the power level of the ability.  Namely that it is completely appropriate for CR 18-25 creatures and not some crazy uber epic godslaying power.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2007)

That works for me, adding the text for damage based on crit multipliers as Kain suggested.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 27, 2007)

I’d prefer to keep it spelled out as-is, since I modeled that on the writeups in the DMG primarily, and ELH secondarily.  How’s that now?

Flaming Weapons (Su): As a swift action, Malphas can cause a weapon he touches to become sheathed in fire; this fire does not harm the wielder.  The effect remains for 10 rounds.  The weapon deals an extra 3d6 points of fire damage on a successful hit. The weapon also explodes with flame upon striking a successful critical hit, dealing an extra 6d6 points of fire damage instead of the normal fire damage.  If the weapon’s critical multiplier is x3, add an extra 9d6 points of fire damage instead, and if the multiplier is x4, add an extra 12d6 points of fire damage instead. Bows, crossbows, and slings with this effect bestow the fire energy upon their ammunition.


----------



## Shade (Apr 27, 2007)

Looks good.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Apr 30, 2007)

So let it be written, so let it be done.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Apr 30, 2007)

I’m Creeping Death!



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Malphas appears as a powerful, dark-complexioned man … or as a large, black, crow-like bird.




Alternate form it is!  let’s give that a start.  I’m thinking he could be just a Medium sized-creature.  Do we need to state anything more than what attacks he can use and the ability to fly?  I would think that all powers he has should be useable in both forms.

Alternate Form (Su): Malphas can shift between his humanoid and bird forms as a standard action. In bird form, he gains a fly speed of 80 feet per round (good/average?) and gains (claw and bite attacks), but cannot (use weapons). 

Malphas remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Malphas revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals both forms simultaneously.



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Malphas shuns armor, and fights with all weapons (and his spell-like powers) when in human form.




So, good point, what sort of weapon shall we give him?  The text gives no indication that I can see as to what type of weapon he would wield.  We could go with the trusty sword option, or get more creative like with an axe, hammer, or anything.  Ah, total freedom!

The text said damage “by weapon +5” so he’s definitely an ass-kicker.



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> Once per round, at will, Malphas can use one of his spell-like powers: tongues or ESP (as noted above), pyrotechnics, produce flame, … detect invisibility, read magic, dispel magic, flame arrow (Malphas can also apply this to blades wielded by himself or others; these become flame tongue swords - fiery damage, but no “to hit” bonuses - for 3 rounds), and remove (or bestow) curse. Once per day Malphas can use a symbol of pain…




One thing I noted.  Check out where it says flame arrow, and that Malphas “can also apply this to blades”.  I think that means he could use flame arrow as an SLA at will, plus the Su ability we wrote up.  Agree, disagree?

We had agreed before (look back to slightly less than a month ago) that he would only have the tongues SLA and not the Su ability.

This is what we have so far:

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 20th?)
At will - bestow curse (DC X), detect thoughts (DC X), dispel magic, greater teleport, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, tongues:
(charm monster (DC 27), discern lies, dispel magic, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, see invisibility, suggestion (DC 26), telekinesis (DC 28)
1/day - symbol of pain (DC X).
(dominate monster (DC 32), symbol of stunning (DC 30).)
locate creature?



			
				Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> He can summon 1-2 abishai, with a 55% chance of success, at will.




This is what we have:

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 1d2 abishai (of any color) with a 55% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell (CL Xth).

Note that for Amduscias, we set the spell level at 8th and the caster level at 20th.


----------



## Shade (Apr 30, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Alternate form it is!  let’s give that a start.  I’m thinking he could be just a Medium sized-creature.  Do we need to state anything more than what attacks he can use and the ability to fly?  I would think that all powers he has should be useable in both forms.




It think that would suffice.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Alternate Form (Su): Malphas can shift between his humanoid and bird forms as a standard action. In bird form, he gains a fly speed of 80 feet per round (good/average?) and gains (claw and bite attacks), but cannot (use weapons).
> 
> Malphas remains in one form until he chooses to assume a new one. A change in form cannot be dispelled, nor does Malphas revert to any particular form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals both forms simultaneously.




A giant raven (Silver Marches) has poor maneuverability, while a giant eagle and owl are average.  So I think average should be good enough.

Giant eagle and owl do 1d6 with claws and 1d8 with bite.   Giant raven does 1d4 with claws and 1d8 with bite.  All are Large.   Obviously, he's not limited to being the same as a mundane animal, but that's a place to start.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> So, good point, what sort of weapon shall we give him?  The text gives no indication that I can see as to what type of weapon he would wield.  We could go with the trusty sword option, or get more creative like with an axe, hammer, or anything.  Ah, total freedom!




I'd go with something that resembles a bird's beak...maybe a heavy pick?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> One thing I noted.  Check out where it says flame arrow, and that Malphas “can also apply this to blades”.  I think that means he could use flame arrow as an SLA at will, plus the Su ability we wrote up.  Agree, disagree?




Didn't we decide that he could impart the flaming ability onto projectile weapons, and that the projectiles would thus carry the property?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> We had agreed before (look back to slightly less than a month ago) that he would only have the tongues SLA and not the Su ability.
> 
> This is what we have so far:
> 
> ...




Just a thought...if we want to take his crow-like image a bit further, we could give him some omen-like SLAs as well.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> This is what we have:
> 
> Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 1d2 abishai (of any color) with a 55% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a Xth-level spell (CL Xth).
> 
> Note that for Amduscias, we set the spell level at 8th and the caster level at 20th.




Once more, I think it might be fun to run with his raven aspect and allow him to summon fiendish ravens as well.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 2, 2007)

Regarding the summon chance.  While the older editions had a failure chance, should our version?  Pit fiends are supposedly weaker than Dukes of Hell, but they have automatic success.  Lords of Hell are obviously more powerful than Dukes, and they have automatic success.  The obvious medium between the two is....automatic chance of success.  

Moving on from there, Abishai are all low low CR.  Under 10, if I remember correctly.  It wouldn't be out of line to let him summon 2d6 to 3d6 of them, if that is the only devil we are going to let him summon.  I think all dukes should be at least capable of summoning something CR 13 or better, as pit fiends can summon a horned devil 2/day.


As a possibility, perhaps Malphas summons advanced (3x normal HD) abishai?  He'd still need more than 1d2 with a 55% chance.


I would suggest this.

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 2d6 advabced abishai (of any color) or a horned devil.  The abishai are advanced to maximum hit dice.  This ability is the equivilent of an 8th level spell.  (Caster level 20th?)


along Shade's lines...

Summon Ravens (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 1d6 fiendish giant ravens or 2d6 fiendish raven swarms.  This ability is the equivilent of a 5th level spell.  (Caster level 20th)


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 2, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> A giant raven (Silver Marches) has poor maneuverability, while a giant eagle and owl are average.  So I think average should be good enough.
> 
> Giant eagle and owl do 1d6 with claws and 1d8 with bite.   Giant raven does 1d4 with claws and 1d8 with bite.  All are Large.   Obviously, he's not limited to being the same as a mundane animal, but that's a place to start.




I’d be just fine with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd go with something that resembles a bird's beak...maybe a heavy pick?




Ooh, good call.    what else do we want to stack on top of that?

Heavy pick +34 melee (1d6+9/x4)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Didn't we decide that he could impart the flaming ability onto projectile weapons, and that the projectiles would thus carry the property?




Yes, but he can only do that once per round.  Giving him a flame arrow SLA is a bonus.  Couldn’t hurt, could it?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Just a thought...if we want to take his crow-like image a bit further, we could give him some omen-like SLAs as well.




That’s an idea.  What is there?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Once more, I think it might be fun to run with his raven aspect and allow him to summon fiendish ravens as well.






			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> Regarding the summon chance.  While the older editions had a failure chance, should our version?  Pit fiends are supposedly weaker than Dukes of Hell, but they have automatic success.  Lords of Hell are obviously more powerful than Dukes, and they have automatic success.  The obvious medium between the two is....automatic chance of success.
> 
> Moving on from there, Abishai are all low low CR.  Under 10, if I remember correctly.  It wouldn't be out of line to let him summon 2d6 to 3d6 of them, if that is the only devil we are going to let him summon.  I think all dukes should be at least capable of summoning something CR 13 or better, as pit fiends can summon a horned devil 2/day.
> 
> ...




Ah, OK, did not think of that.  I don’t have FC2 handy, but in the BoVD each of the nine lords has at least one type of devil that they can summon automatically.  Some of them also have other types that they have a % chance to summon.

Here’s an idea then.  Let’s say that any devil with, say, half the lord’s CR can be summoned automatically, and anything higher than that has a % chance.  For the sake of argument, we can use the 1E percentage in cases like that.  

We can use the summon raven ability if Shade likes it.    if we are going to let him summon advanced abishai, how about instead we say they could summon normal ones automatically and advanced ones with a % chance?  

I wouldn’t let him summon horned devils just because pit fiends do it.  Abishai are well-suited to Admuscias and Malphas just because of their close connection to Tiamat, and the fact that they command legions of them.


----------



## Shade (May 2, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I’d be just fine with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4).




Hmmm...that's pretty poor damage output for his level.  He'd almost never have incentive to fight in raven form.  Perhaps we should allow him to apply his flaming blast property to his natural attacks as well?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Ooh, good call.    what else do we want to stack on top of that?




Heavy pick +34 melee (1d6+9/x4)[/quote]

Hmmm....unholy is always a good option.  Keen and wounding seem appropriate as well.  And make it cold iron since Avernus is often part of Blood War battles.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Yes, but he can only do that once per round.  Giving him a flame arrow SLA is a bonus.  Couldn’t hurt, could it?




Nah, couldn't hurt.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> That’s an idea.  What is there?




Bestow curse seems appropriate.  Maybe some divinations?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Ah, OK, did not think of that.  I don’t have FC2 handy, but in the BoVD each of the nine lords has at least one type of devil that they can summon automatically.  Some of them also have other types that they have a % chance to summon.




Actually, it looks like most can summon lots of devils automatically.  Even lowly (CR 19) Fierna can automatically summon five barbazu or five hamatulas 3/day!   So beefing up the Dukes seems appropriate, even necessary.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Here’s an idea then.  Let’s say that any devil with, say, half the lord’s CR can be summoned automatically, and anything higher than that has a % chance.  For the sake of argument, we can use the 1E percentage in cases like that.
> 
> We can use the summon raven ability if Shade likes it.    if we are going to let him summon advanced abishai, how about instead we say they could summon normal ones automatically and advanced ones with a % chance?




I'd say let him summon lots of unadvanced abishai automatically.   I'm always hesistant to use advanced monsters that don't have pre-written statblocks (like nycaloth commanders, for instance).  While I'm very comfortable advancing monsters, many DMs probably are not.  I'd recommend finding a core devil (or something in the CC) of closer power.  

The summon ravens as written above has a similar problem...giant raven stats are in an obscure FR book, and I believe raven swarms aren't officially stated (although BoED has deathraven swarms, but aren't evil).   We could state....

Summon Ravens (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 1d6 fiendish giant ravens (use stats for fiendish giant eagles) or 2d6 fiendish raven swarms (use stats for fiendish bat swarms). This ability is the equivilent of a 5th level spell. (Caster level 20th).



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I wouldn’t let him summon horned devils just because pit fiends do it.  Abishai are well-suited to Admuscias and Malphas just because of their close connection to Tiamat, and the fact that they command legions of them.




Horned devils aren't a bad choice, though.   Essentially, any of the core devils could be attributed to Tiamat's service, although ice devils don't really make sense.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...that's pretty poor damage output for his level.  He'd almost never have incentive to fight in raven form.  Perhaps we should allow him to apply his flaming blast property to his natural attacks as well?




I agree, that is pretty weak.  Not sure I want to open the can of worms of applying the flaming power on natural attacks.  Maybe just increasing the base damage and/or giving it some minor special power (like Improved Grab or something).  The raven form isn’t really his form for fighting – that’s for sneaking around and moving fast, really.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm....unholy is always a good option.  Keen and wounding seem appropriate as well.  And make it cold iron since Avernus is often part of Blood War battles.




Now, most of his fighting will be done in humanoid form.    here he gets the iterative attacks with his weapon, with a mean crit and we can either make it a keen weapon or give him improved critical.  How about this?:

Full Attack: +2 cold iron unholy heavy pick +36/+31/+26/+21 melee (1d6+11/x4)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Bestow curse seems appropriate.  Maybe some divinations?




Actually, we had bestow curse at will already.  He’s got detect thoughts, so what other divination spells could he stand to have?  I know we were considering locate creature, for one.

I was looking at the SLA list that I had set up, and I realized that I had just double-listed all of Amdu’s SLAs under Mal’s.  I guess we were considering which ones, if any, to copy over (for reference again he had, at will: charm monster, discern lies, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, suggestion, telekinesis; 1/day - dominate monster, symbol of stunning).

Here is the real list of SLAs so far, with even the DCs added in.  

Spell-Like Abilities: (Caster level 20th?)
At will - bestow curse (DC 26), detect thoughts (DC 24), dispel magic, flame arrow, greater teleport, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, remove curse, see invisibility, tongues
1/day - symbol of pain (DC 27).



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Actually, it looks like most can summon lots of devils automatically.  Even lowly (CR 19) Fierna can automatically summon five barbazu or five hamatulas 3/day!   So beefing up the Dukes seems appropriate, even necessary.
> 
> I'd say let him summon lots of unadvanced abishai automatically.   I'm always hesistant to use advanced monsters that don't have pre-written statblocks (like nycaloth commanders, for instance).  While I'm very comfortable advancing monsters, many DMs probably are not.  I'd recommend finding a core devil (or something in the CC) of closer power.




I agree with using advanced monsters that way.  Using it on the fly becomes difficult at best – you’d basically have to advance the abishai yourself before the game if you knew your players might be fighting this guy.    sure, a whole flock of abishai (3d6?) automatically is fine.  We can update Amdu the same way, but just a little bit better.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The summon ravens as written above has a similar problem...giant raven stats are in an obscure FR book, and I believe raven swarms aren't officially stated (although BoED has deathraven swarms, but aren't evil).   We could state....
> 
> Summon Ravens (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 1d6 fiendish giant ravens (use stats for fiendish giant eagles) or 2d6 fiendish raven swarms (use stats for fiendish bat swarms). This ability is the equivilent of a 5th level spell. (Caster level 20th).




That works for me.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Horned devils aren't a bad choice, though.   Essentially, any of the core devils could be attributed to Tiamat's service, although ice devils don't really make sense.




For reference then, what sort of devils serve Tiamat most besides abishai?  Any clues in FC2?


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I agree, that is pretty weak.  Not sure I want to open the can of worms of applying the flaming power on natural attacks.  Maybe just increasing the base damage and/or giving it some minor special power (like Improved Grab or something).  The raven form isn’t really his form for fighting – that’s for sneaking around and moving fast, really.




Good point...plus he can pepper landbound flows with SLAs from a distance.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Now, most of his fighting will be done in humanoid form.    here he gets the iterative attacks with his weapon, with a mean crit and we can either make it a keen weapon or give him improved critical.  How about this?:
> 
> Full Attack: +2 cold iron unholy heavy pick +36/+31/+26/+21 melee (1d6+11/x4)




I'd throw keen on there.  Most of the greater aspects in FC2 have properties totalling in the +4 to +6 range.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Actually, we had bestow curse at will already.  He’s got detect thoughts, so what other divination spells could he stand to have?  I know we were considering locate creature, for one.
> 
> I was looking at the SLA list that I had set up, and I realized that I had just double-listed all of Amdu’s SLAs under Mal’s.  I guess we were considering which ones, if any, to copy over (for reference again he had, at will: charm monster, discern lies, faerie fire, fire shield (either version), greater teleport, locate object, suggestion, telekinesis; 1/day - dominate monster, symbol of stunning).
> 
> ...




Locate creature sounds like a good add.   How about moment of prescience 1/day?



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I agree with using advanced monsters that way.  Using it on the fly becomes difficult at best – you’d basically have to advance the abishai yourself before the game if you knew your players might be fighting this guy.    sure, a whole flock of abishai (3d6?) automatically is fine.  We can update Amdu the same way, but just a little bit better.




That could work. 



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> For reference then, what sort of devils serve Tiamat most besides abishai?  Any clues in FC2?




Hmmm....Goap's got erinyes under his command.   Really, any of them other than ones suited to particular other layers or contradictory to her behavior could work.   Malebranches seem perfect for the role.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 3, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I agree with using advanced monsters that way.  Using it on the fly becomes difficult at best – you’d basically have to advance the abishai yourself before the game if you knew your players might be fighting this guy.    sure, a whole flock of abishai (3d6?) automatically is fine.  We can update Amdu the same way, but just a little bit better.





Well, one way to deal with that is to stat up an advanced abishai ourselves, thus creating the statblock for those that use it.  I am 100% in agreement that DMs shouldn't have to run all over the place just to figure out how to use the statblock.  The entire purpose is making things easier for DMs, not harder.

As for what other devils are suited, I admit I'm at a bit of a loss.  If these guys still serve Tiamat rather then Bel, maybe a fiendish dragon would work?  I'd say a hellfire wyrm, but that would likely be overkill, even if the CR was revised.

Otherwise, as Dukes of Hell, they don't need to just summon devils closely associated with Tiamat.  What are _they_ associated with?  Fierna can summon hamatula because they are associated with pain and the 4th Hell, like she is.  

I do think we should keep the summoning automatic though.  Like I said, a pit fiend (CR 20) can automatically summon 2/day a horned devil (CR 15).  If you are doing percents, that is 75% of its original CR.  Moving over to the demons, a balor can summon another balor.  Again, automatically.  We shouldn't be shy about allowing some serious EL to be summoned by the dukes.  If we use regular abishai, I'd say even 4d8 isn't too serious of an impact on the CR.


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> I do think we should keep the summoning automatic though.  Like I said, a pit fiend (CR 20) can automatically summon 2/day a horned devil (CR 15).  If you are doing percents, that is 75% of its original CR.  Moving over to the demons, a balor can summon another balor.  Again, automatically.  We shouldn't be shy about allowing some serious EL to be summoned by the dukes.  If we use regular abishai, I'd say even 4d8 isn't too serious of an impact on the CR.




I agree wholeheartedly.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good point...plus he can pepper landbound flows with SLAs from a distance.




Landbound flows?   

Do we want to go with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4) then, or maybe bump that up to 1d8 and 1d10?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd throw keen on there.  Most of the greater aspects in FC2 have properties totalling in the +4 to +6 range.




Keen or improved critical?  How about +4 on the weapon (some of the tougher dukes should have +5 or +6 absolutely, but Mal ain’t one of them).  We’ll need to change Amdusicias to +4 too since that’s where I got the +2 from.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Locate creature sounds like a good add.   How about moment of prescience 1/day?




Interesting choice!  I don’t usually see that one come up, but it could definitely come in handy for this guy.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That could work.




Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 3d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).

We’ll reset Amdu with 4d6 abishai, but otherwise the same.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm....Goap's got erinyes under his command.   Really, any of them other than ones suited to particular other layers or contradictory to her behavior could work.   Malebranches seem perfect for the role.




How about 2d4 malebranche for Malphas?  Maybe 2d6 erinyes for Amdu in addition to his abishai?  The CRs are under 10 for those, so I’m fine with automatic summoning.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> We shouldn't be shy about allowing some serious EL to be summoned by the dukes.




You make a good point – in fact, I’d think that summoning would almost always be the first thing a devil does in a fight when facing multiple powerful foes.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 4, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 3d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).
> 
> We’ll reset Amdu with 4d6 abishai, but otherwise the same.
> 
> ...





I think malebranche make excellent bruisers for him to summon.  They are essentially stupider cornugons (and were the same in the earliest editions, if I remember) so they work.  

It was either that or 2d8 infernals; I think malebranche is the right choice.


Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 2d4 malebranche or 4d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).

Good?  Do we want to make it twice per day, like the pit fiend?


----------



## Shade (May 7, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Landbound flows?




That's what happen when your first post is lost and you have to retype in frustration!



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Do we want to go with 2 claws +34 melee (1d6+9) and bite +29 melee (1d8+4) then, or maybe bump that up to 1d8 and 1d10?




Either way.  The difference is almost negligible at that level.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Keen or improved critical?  How about +4 on the weapon (some of the tougher dukes should have +5 or +6 absolutely, but Mal ain’t one of them).  We’ll need to change Amdusicias to +4 too since that’s where I got the +2 from.




Well, since the greater aspects have total bonuses in the +4 to +6 range (that's the "plus" and the property value), I'd stick with +2 keen unholy, which is a total of +5.




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> How about 2d4 malebranche for Malphas?  Maybe 2d6 erinyes for Amdu in addition to his abishai?  The CRs are under 10 for those, so I’m fine with automatic summoning.




Yes to both.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> Summon Baatezu (Sp): Once per day, Malphas can attempt to summon 2d4 malebranche or 4d6 abishai (of any color) automatically. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).
> 
> Good?  Do we want to make it twice per day, like the pit fiend?




Looks good.  It's gotta be a 9th-level equivalent with that volume, though.    

Definitely with twice per day.   All the greater aspects are two or three times per day.  I think limiting the Dukes (with maybe an exception for the top three or so) to twice seems appropriate.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, since the greater aspects have total bonuses in the +4 to +6 range (that's the "plus" and the property value), I'd stick with +2 keen unholy, which is a total of +5.




OK that works, and since we undoubtedly used the same logic with Amduscias, we will leave his weapon alone.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Definitely with twice per day.   All the greater aspects are two or three times per day.  I think limiting the Dukes (with maybe an exception for the top three or so) to twice seems appropriate.




I agree.  How is this now?

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Twice per day, Malphas can summon 3d6 abishai (of any color) or 2d4 malebranche automatically. This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell (CL 20th).

And this?

Summon Baatezu (Sp): Twice per day, Amduscias can summon 4d6 abishai (of any color) or 2d6 erinyes automatically, or one aspect of Tiamat (see Dragon Magic page 110) with a X% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell (CL 20th).


----------



## Shade (May 7, 2007)

Looks good.  Maybe 70% for the aspect of Tiamat?   It's really not that powerful, so the percentage is probably just to represent Tiamat's mood.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 7, 2007)

works for me.   i'll make the correction to Amduscias when i update Malphas (hopefully tonight, *fingers crossed*)



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I bolded the common skills I think he'd most use:
> 
> *Appraise = mid to high ranks*
> Balance = low to mid ranks when used
> ...






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so, with an Int of 24, he gets 420 skill ranks, maaaan...
> 
> OK, so how about Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (at least two), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, and Tumble?






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd go with Knowledge (the planes) and Knowledge (religion), since he works for Tiamat. The others look good.




let's work on the ranks now...

Bluff, Concentration, Diplomacy, Disguise, Escape Artist, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble


----------



## Shade (May 7, 2007)

How's this?

Appraise 20, Bluff 28, Concentration 20, Diplomacy 28, Disguise 28, Escape Artist 12, Gather Information 28, Hide 16, Intimidate 28, Knowledge (religion) 20, Knowledge (the planes) 20, Listen 28, Move Silently 16, Search 16, Sense Motive 28, Spellcraft 28, Spot 28, Tumble 28


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Appraise 20, Bluff 28, Concentration 20, Diplomacy 28, Disguise 28, Escape Artist 12, Gather Information 28, Hide 16, Intimidate 28, Knowledge (religion) 20, Knowledge (the planes) 20, Listen 28, Move Silently 16, Search 16, Sense Motive 28, Spellcraft 28, Spot 28, Tumble 28




I'd lower the Tumble to 20 and increase the two knowledge to 24 each.  Also, why no Knowledge (arcana) if he has Spellcraft?  Otherwise, this looks fine.

Incidently, your suggestions give the following synergy bonuses.

Balance +4
Diplomacy +8 
Disguise (+4 acting)
Intimidate +4
Jump +4
Survival (+2 on other planes, +2 tracking)
Use Rope (+2 bindings)

I'd need to know his speed for his total Jump bonus.  I'd need to know his size for his total Hide bonus.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 7, 2007)

his size and speed are fairly ordinary: Medium and 30 feet.


----------



## Shade (May 7, 2007)

Since all the greater aspects have Knowledge (arcana), I'd agree we need to add it.  

My recommendations:

Take the 8 ranks you suggested removing from Tumble and give them to K (arcana).  Poach another 8 from Spellcraft, bringing K (arcana) to 16 ranks.  Steal 4 ranks from Concentration, and then K (arcana) is at 20 ranks like the other Knowledge skills.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 7, 2007)

If we go with that, Shade, and from what you've said, AoB, this is the following synergies


Balance +2
Diplomacy +8 
Disguise (+4 acting)
Intimidate +4
Jump +2
Spellcraft +2
Survival (+2 on other planes, +2 tracking)
Use Rope (+2 bindings)


Ranks:
Appraise 20, Balance 0, Bluff 28, Concentration 16, Diplomacy 28, Disguise 28, Escape Artist 12, Gather Information 28, Hide 16, Intimidate 28, Jump 0, Knowledge (arcana) 20, Knowledge (religion) 20, Knowledge (the planes) 20, Listen 28, Move Silently 16, Search 16, Sense Motive 28, Spellcraft 20, Spot 28, Survival 0, Tumble 20, Use Rope 0


If someone tosses me his ability scores real quick (or tells me which page it is on), I can do the total modifiers.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 8, 2007)

no need - got 'em with me.    not sure how you got a +4 bonus to acting?  i went with a +2 synergy for that unless you're sure it wasn't a mistake.

how's this?

Appraise +27, Balance +12, Bluff +40, Concentration +23, Diplomacy +48, Disguise +40 (+42 acting), Escape Artist +22, Gather Information +40, Hide +26, Intimidate +44, Jump +11, Knowledge (arcana) +27, Knowledge (religion) +27, Knowledge (the planes) +27, Listen +35, Move Silently +26, Search +23, Sense Motive +35, Spellcraft +29, Spot +35, Survival +7 (+9 other planes, +9 tracking), Tumble +30, Use Rope +10 (+12 bindings)


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> no need - got 'em with me.    not sure how you got a +4 bonus to acting?  i went with a +2 synergy for that unless you're sure it wasn't a mistake.




It'd the additional +2 synergy for every 25 ranks kicking in.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 8, 2007)

Wow!  I wasn’t even aware of that.  Have we ever really remembered to use that before?  

And hey, look at me, I actually had some free time and was able to post in the morning!  Am I not feeling well?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> * Common Feats *Assuming 25 HD, Mal gets 9, 2 of which can be epic.
> 
> Common: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Weapon Focus
> 
> ...




I think I had said somewhere before that I’d like Ability Focus (fear touch).  I also like Combat Expertise for him, and Combat Reflexes.  Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack sounds good too.

I could see some feats from the Combat Expertise tree (Improved Disarm, maybe Improved Feint – we never see that one in use do we!), maybe Acrobatic or Negotiator, maybe Persuasive, or something like Power Attack/Cleave/Improved Sunder.


----------



## Mortis (May 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It'd the additional +2 synergy for every 25 ranks kicking in.




That's not quite correct. 

It's +2 for the first 5 ranks of a skill, then an additional +2 for every 20 ranks after that.

So 25 ranks would give +4, 45 ranks would give +6 etc.

Here's a link to the relevant bit of the SRD.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2007)

Mortis -- good catch!       I knew 25 was a magic number (since my character just hit 22nd-level, and thus can get 25 ranks now).    


How about this?

Ability Focus (fear touch), Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Disarm or Improved Feint, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack.


----------



## Mortis (May 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Mortis -- good catch!       I knew 25 was a magic number (since my character just hit 22nd-level, and thus can get 25 ranks now).



That's ok - the only epic character I've played was fighter/weapon master/legendary dreadnaught that was about level 50 when then campaign collapsed - the dm had constantly given out far too much gear for our level.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 8, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Mortis -- good catch!       I knew 25 was a magic number (since my character just hit 22nd-level, and thus can get 25 ranks now).
> 
> 
> How about this?
> ...




Are we allowed to suggest noncore feats such as those from PHB2?  I'd go with Bounding Assault before Whirlwind Attack.  Or Improved Combat Expertise.

As for Imp Dis vs Imp Feint, I would go with Feint if those were the choices.  If he was fighting a rival, say an ambitious pit fiend, the pit fiend's natural attack is far nastier than any weapon it can hold.  Thus, he is likely facing an 'unarmed' foe.  Improved Feint is actually worth something in such a combat, Improved Disarm is not.  However, I'd reccomend Improved Initiative over either of those.

What about Dark Speech?  Every single Lord of Hell has it.  Wouldn't most Dukes?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 8, 2007)

i'm absolutely in favor of Improved Feint.  Dark Speech is definitely a feat for more than a few of the Dukes, and the Dukes of Avernus for certain.

not sure if i'd go with anything from PHB2, as that is inaccessible for DMs who don't have it (like myself).    we usually skip non-core books unless it's something that we simply can't ignore - which seems rare enough.


----------



## Shade (May 8, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> we usually skip non-core books unless it's something that we simply can't ignore - which seems rare enough.




Like the malebranche.    

I'm cool with Improved Feint, and Dark Speech could replace WW Attack.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 8, 2007)

i'm both finicky and unpredictable - don't ya love it?  

how about this setup?

Ability Focus (fear touch), Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Feint, Mobility, Power Attack, Spring Attack


----------



## BOZ (May 9, 2007)

OK, assuming that i've got it right with the above feat set... updating in homebrews.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 9, 2007)

any thoughts on CR?  21 like Amduscias?


----------



## Shade (May 9, 2007)

Looking good.  CR 21 sounds about right.  

Time to revisit his cloak?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 9, 2007)

Dragon #75 said:
			
		

> black velvet studded with gems (of considerable value; his robes have 333 gems of all sorts, 100 g.p. base value each, if recovered complete)




that's what we're starting with...


----------



## Shade (May 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> that's what we're starting with...




Perhaps some could function like this...



			
				SRD=Elemental Gem: This gem contains a conjuration spell attuned to a specific Elemental Plane (Air said:
			
		

> But rather than summoning elementals, it summons devils.
> 
> A few other options...
> 
> ...


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 9, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> we could give the robe some magic, sure (in fact, i had thought it had some, but was disappointed to find it didn't), but nothing major like an artifact. maybe give it the power of 2-3 different types of cloak/robe?




There’s one idea I had earlier…



Also, here’s one side thought.  I think that anything in the FC2 should be considered “core” for the Dukes.  After all, anyone using the Dukes in 3.5 is likely to have FC2 anyway, right?  

Content from other books, we’d take on a case-by-case basis.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 10, 2007)

Well, from a mechanical standpoint, we should compare Malphas to other CR 21s.  Primarily from the MM 3.5 (and IV, if there are any high CRs in that book), but it wouldn't hurt taking a peak at the epic level handbook monsters either.

With that information, find a range in which saves and AC fall for CR 21.  Use the cape to grant bonuses bringing Malphas into that range.  (Assuming he isn't in it already)


I would like the gem summoning devils thing, except it sort of overlaps and dilutes his own devil summoning.  I think that having it summon devilish creatures (like a Nessian warhound, a hellcat, a fiendish roc) would be better.  And as a Duke, I think they should be resusable, X/day rather than one use items.

Alternate use...they summon humans/demihumans who have sold their soul to Malphas.


Alternate use....they absorb hostile spell energy and convert it to recharge Malphas' own limited use spell-like abilities.  Or allow him to Quicken, Empower, Maximize etc, his spell-like abilities, using the charges.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 10, 2007)

i have another idea... all of the above?    there are 333 gems of course... and we're not going to give attributes to each one or anything.  we could say that each gem has its own power, useable 1/day, and list some examples of common effects, such as: functions like a metamagic rod, functions like a potion, summons a creature, absorb spell energy, work like ioun stones, etc... you get the idea!  let the DM decide which gems he's got ready at any one time.

we might want to make it even less frequent than 1/day - after all, there *are* 333 of them, and he's got other powers besides...


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 10, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i have another idea... all of the above?    there are 333 gems of course... and we're not going to give attributes to each one or anything.  we could say that each gem has its own power, useable 1/day, and list some examples of common effects, such as: functions like a metamagic rod, functions like a potion, summons a creature, absorb spell energy, work like ioun stones, etc... you get the idea!  let the DM decide which gems he's got ready at any one time.
> 
> we might want to make it even less frequent than 1/day - after all, there *are* 333 of them, and he's got other powers besides...





That's true.  I believe the official WotC method for writing 333/day is 'at will'  


In reference to the AC and saves though, I was suggesting a continual effect, like bracers of armor, cloak of resistance and rings of protection.


EDIT:

I did some math.  Using only creatures from the MM 3.5 of CR 21, these are the mechanics.  The number in parentheses at the end is the average of the scores.

HP 	370, 445, 459, 391, 432, 449, 387, 522 (432)
AC 	38, 38, 39, 34, 37, 36, 38, 41 (38)
ATK 	37, 41, 42, 39, 40, 40, 40, 45 (41)
FOR 	28, 25, 26, 23, 25, 25, 23, 28 (26)
REF 	13, 18, 19, 16, 18, 17, 17, 20 (17)
WILL 	21, 23, 24, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24 (23)

Here are similar numbers from the Epic Level Handbook.  It should be noted that although the scores are slightly lower, the creatures often have a wide range of immunity to special effects that makes saves not as important.

HP: 435, 405, 238, 562  (410)
AC: 39, 43, 42, 37  (40)
Atk: +39, +40, +39, +31 (37)
Fort +22, 24, 12, 28 (22)
Ref +22, 17, 16, 14 (17)
Will +17, 25, 12, 20 (19)


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 11, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> In reference to the AC and saves though, I was suggesting a continual effect, like bracers of armor, cloak of resistance and rings of protection.




i did mention before that it could have the effects of 2 or 3 different types of minor magic item, so that could definitely work.


----------



## Shade (May 14, 2007)

FWIW, here's what the CR 19-22 FCII greater aspects possess in the way of save and stat-boosting magic items:

Fierna:  potion of barkskin (CL 6th), potion of invisibility, 2 potions of sanctuary, ring of protection +5, bracers of armor +6, cloak of resistance +3
Bel:  ring of protection +4, bracers of armor +4
Belial:  ring of protection +3, amulet of natural armor +1, bracers of armor +2
Dispater:  none
Levistus:  ring of protection +5, bracers of armor +5
Mammon:  oil of invisibility, potion of greater magic fang (CL 20th), potion of haste, ring of protection +5, bracers of armor +4
Glasya:  ring of invisibility, ring of protection +5, cloak of resistance +4,


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 14, 2007)

i could see the cloak functioning as 2 or 3 of the ring of protection/cloak of resistance/bracers of armor - if we go with 2 of those, i'd make the bonus of each +4, and if we use all three maybe +3.  that's totally arbitrary of course.  

how does he activate a gem?  does he remove it or just touch it?


----------



## Shade (May 14, 2007)

I'd at least like to see the saves and deflection bonus.  I'm less interested in the armor bonus, but don't mind if the group consensus wants it.

I'd say he activates them by just touching it.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd at least like to see the saves and deflection bonus.  I'm less interested in the armor bonus, but don't mind if the group consensus wants it.
> 
> I'd say he activates them by just touching it.




I'm in total agreement with Shade here.  
Also, the bonuses should only be used to bring Malphas' saves/AC up to par with similar CR creatures.  The other abilities (the gem activated) are the real important ones, since they evoke a more interesting flavor.


----------



## Shade (May 14, 2007)

FWIW, here are the relevant saves and AC for the CR 19-22 FCII greater aspects:

Fierna:  
Armor Class: 41 (+6 Dex, +14 natural, +6 armor, +5 deflection), touch 21, flat-footed 35; Dodge, Mobility
Saves: Fort +26, Ref +27, Will +27

Bel:
Armor Class: 39 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +20 natural, +4 armor, +4 deflection), touch 15, flat-footed 37
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +15, Will +21

Belial:
Armor Class: 43 (+6 Dex, +22 natural, +2 armor, +3 deflection), touch 19, flat-footed 37; Dodge, Mobility
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +25

Dispater:
Armor Class: 44 (+2 Dex, +25 natural, +7 shield), touch 12, flat-footed 42
Saves: Fort +28, Ref +20, Will +22

Levistus:
Armor Class: 42 (+7 Dex, +15 natural, +5 armor, +5 deflection), touch 22, flat-footed 35; Dodge, Mobility, elaborate parry
Saves: Fort +23, Ref +21, Will +25; evasion

Mammon:
Armor Class: 41 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +22 natural, +4 armor, +5 deflection), touch 15, flat-footed 39; Dodge, Mobility
Saves: Fort +27, Ref +20, Will +25

Glasya:
Armor Class: 46 (-1 size, +12 Dex, +20 natural, +5 deflection), touch 27, flat-footed 34; Dodge
Saves: Fort +28, Ref +32, Will +29 (+33 against mind-affecting spells and abilities)


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 15, 2007)

OK then, so if it functions as a +4 ring of protection and a +4 cloak of resistance that should be just fine, no?

so, should activating a gem be a standard action?  the reason i asked is, because if he were removing the gems before combat and holding them in his hand, i could see it happen as a swift action or something, but if he has to take the trouble to reach and find it, i have to say standard action.


----------



## Mortis (May 15, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> so, should activating a gem be a standard action?  the reason i asked is, because if he were removing the gems before combat and holding them in his hand, i could see it happen as a swift action or something, but if he has to take the trouble to reach and find it, i have to say standard action.



Maybe he doesn't physically have to remove a gem. He just needs a moment of concentration (swift/free action) and the gem loses it's lustre and drops to the floor (as a worthless crystal).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 15, 2007)

The act of reaching the gem and activating it should be a standard action, from start to finish.


Either that, or we make it a mental action...he simply concentrates and the gem activates while he's wearing the cloak.  In which case I would say a swift or standard action.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 15, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> The act of reaching the gem and activating it should be a standard action, from start to finish.




this is where i'm coming from at the moment.

he can use the cloak to augment his SLAs and other abilities.


----------



## Shade (May 15, 2007)

We could always use a combination of actions based on the ability.

For simplicity's sake, though, I think standard action is the way to go.  If he gains several swift action abilities, they'd essentially be the equivalent of quickened spell-like abilities, which might make him more powerful in relation to other fiends of his CR.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 16, 2007)

That’s what I was primarily concerned about.

Here’s a bare-bones sketch of the item so far:

“Robe of Malphas”: Malphas’s black velvet robes are studded with 333 gems of considerable value.  The robe itself functions as if it were both a +4 cloak of resistance and a +4 ring of protection.

Malphas can also activate any gem on his robe as a standard action by touching it.  Each gem has a separate, individual function and can be used (1/day, 1/week?).  Each gem’s effect should be determined by the DM.  Many of the gems can be used to cast a spell much like other magic items, using the lowest possible caster level.  Common spells include summon monster, summon nature’s ally…

Some of the gems function like ioun stones, for X rounds.  Some function like a metamagic rod for X rounds, enhancing any spell-like ability Malphas uses.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 17, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> That’s what I was primarily concerned about.
> 
> Here’s a bare-bones sketch of the item so far:
> 
> ...




I think it would be better to have the gems function at a flat (20th?) caster level.  Not only just for power level, but for ease of play.  It adds an entire layer of work for the DM to choose an effect and then go find the lowest caster level for the effect, especially if he is actually using Malphas in combat.  To say nothing of ECL 21 monks and drow not being affected in the least by SR dependant effects.


----------



## Mortis (May 17, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> I think it would be better to have the gems function at a flat (20th?) caster level.  Not only just for power level, but for ease of play.  It adds an entire layer of work for the DM to choose an effect and then go find the lowest caster level for the effect, especially if he is actually using Malphas in combat.  To say nothing of ECL 21 monks and drow not being affected in the least by SR dependant effects.



I'm *able* to agree with Kain on this.   

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2007)

I'm with you guys on the flat 20th caster level.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 17, 2007)

Ok.  Here's another idea.  The cloak has 333 gem granted options.  Rather than say that each option is available x/day, x/week, why don't we say _any_ option is open 9/day?  (once for each of the Nine Hells)  

So it is sort of like a sorcerer who has 9 spells per day left and 333 spells known.


----------



## Shade (May 17, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> Ok.  Here's another idea.  The cloak has 333 gem granted options.  Rather than say that each option is available x/day, x/week, why don't we say _any_ option is open 9/day?  (once for each of the Nine Hells)
> 
> So it is sort of like a sorcerer who has 9 spells per day left and 333 spells known.




Great idea!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 23, 2007)

I’m not dead yet!



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> I'm *able* to agree with Kain on this.



  oy…!  *drops over dead*



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> Ok. Here's another idea. The cloak has 333 gem granted options. Rather than say that each option is available x/day, x/week, why don't we say any option is open 9/day? (once for each of the Nine Hells)
> 
> So it is sort of like a sorcerer who has 9 spells per day left and 333 spells known.




So, essentially, to put it another way what you’re saying is he can use the robe 9 times per day, using any of the 333 effects as he sees fit?  If so, I’m in full agreement.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 24, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m not dead yet!
> 
> oy…!  *drops over dead*
> 
> ...




That's _exactly_ what I'm saying.  (aside from the AC/save bonuses, which should be constant)

I think it makes him simpler to run in the long term as well.  Can you imagine trying to track him for more than a couple sessions as a recurring long term bad guy if you had to keep track of 333 nonrenewable (or variable renewed) abilities?  Plus, he'd have to get a new magic cloak nearly every year and that would put a dent even in a Duke of Hell's budget.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (May 25, 2007)

Well, I think your solution is perfect – a DM could even do it on the fly.  Make up a couple dozen abilities on the fly in 5-10 minutes, using the suggestions I’ve provided, and just pick and choose from those as needed.  Just as well, if a DM with OCD and a lot of free time wanted to go and actually choose 333 abilities for him and somehow keep track of them all, he could feel free.  Either extreme of DM needs keep track of only the 9 daily uses.

So, let me give an attempt at revising the writeup with this idea in place as a slight adjustment:


“Robe of Malphas”: Malphas’s black velvet robes are studded with 333 gems of considerable value.  The robe itself functions as if it were both a +4 cloak of resistance and a +4 ring of protection.

Malphas can also activate any gem on his robe as a standard action by touching it.  The robe can be used in this way up to 9 times per day to activate any of the 333 gems.  Each gem has a separate, individual function which should be determined by the DM.  

Many of the gems can be used to cast a spell much like other magic items, using the lowest possible caster level.  Common spells include summon monster, summon nature’s ally…

Some of the gems function like ioun stones, for X rounds.  Some function like a metamagic rod for X rounds, enhancing any spell-like ability Malphas uses.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 27, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> “Robe of Malphas”: Malphas’s black velvet robes are studded with 333 gems of considerable value.  The robe itself functions as if it were both a +4 cloak of resistance and a +4 ring of protection.
> 
> Malphas can also activate any gem on his robe as a standard action by touching it.  The robe can be used in this way up to 9 times per day to activate any of the 333 gems.  Each gem has a separate, individual function which should be determined by the DM.
> 
> ...





Caster level 20th.  Or Caster level = CRth.  Not the lowest possible.  Otherwise good.

So...this metamagic rod.  Rather than a typical rod of metamagic, this one works for 9 (let's just use as an example) rounds?  So for 9 rounds after, any SLA he uses is affected?  That sounds pretty cool.

One could act as a runestaff, using his SLAs to fuel.  Of course, that's sort of more complicated than just letting him cast a spell with it, so perhaps that should be scrapped.  Here's a few more suggestions.

Displacement (50% miss chance) for x rounds/minutes
Incorporeal for x rounds/minutes
Next attack is a critical threat.
+15 to next skill check
Attacker takes damage equal to the next attack that strikes him
Allowed a swift round action dimensional door for the next x rounds.  (No restriction on actions taken afterwards)


----------



## Shade (May 30, 2007)

Sorry for the lack of responses.   I've been crazy busy at both work and home.

I think CL 20th is probably simplest.

Since he doesn't actually cast spells, isn't the metamagic rod power useless to him?

Maybe instead a gem can be used to apply a metamagic feat to a spell-like ability?


----------



## Kain Darkwind (May 31, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sorry for the lack of responses.   I've been crazy busy at both work and home.
> 
> I think CL 20th is probably simplest.
> 
> ...






			
				Aspect of Boz said:
			
		

> Some function like a metamagic rod for X rounds, *enhancing any spell-like ability* Malphas uses.




Emphasis mine.   That's exactly what we're talking about.  He simply mentioned a round duration, so I was curious as to how such a rod would function.  There should be no doubt that it affects SLAs, not spells though.


----------



## Shade (May 31, 2007)

Ah, OK, that'll teach me not to skim.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 8, 2007)

You wish!   



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> Caster level 20th.  Or Caster level = CRth.  Not the lowest possible.  Otherwise good.




I agree with shade – let’s make it 20.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> So...this metamagic rod.  Rather than a typical rod of metamagic, this one works for 9 (let's just use as an example) rounds?  So for 9 rounds after, any SLA he uses is affected?  That sounds pretty cool.




I suppose that might work – I’ll confess to never having used a metamagic rod (I rarely play spellcasters, and don’t think I’ve ever used a metamagic feat on a spell) nor did I look up the items in the DMG before I posted that idea.  



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> One could act as a runestaff, using his SLAs to fuel.  Of course, that's sort of more complicated than just letting him cast a spell with it, so perhaps that should be scrapped.  Here's a few more suggestions.
> 
> Displacement (50% miss chance) for x rounds/minutes
> Incorporeal for x rounds/minutes
> ...




Any of those might work – I’ll toss them in there as suggestions for the DM rather than try to explain each one.


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2007)

So are we getting close on this guy?  It seems we've been dealing with this cloak for weeks!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 11, 2007)

only because i've been too lazy to put any real work into getting it finished.  

would it be enough, then, to say this?:

“Robe of Gems”: Malphas’s black velvet robes are studded with 333 gems of considerable value.  The robe itself functions as if it were both a +4 cloak of resistance and a +4 ring of protection.

Malphas can also activate any gem on his robe as a standard action by touching it.  The robe can be used in this way up to 9 times per day to activate any of the 333 gems.  Each gem has a separate, individual function which should be determined by the DM.  

Many of the gems can be used to cast a spell much like other magic items, at caster level 20.  Common spells include displacement, summon monster, summon nature’s ally…

Some of the gems function like ioun stones, for 9 rounds.  Some function similarly to a metamagic rod for 9 rounds, enhancing any spell-like ability Malphas uses rather than spells.  The gems can have any of a variety of different effects, such as granting incorporeality, allowing Malphas to make sneak attacks, providing bonuses on skill checks, or anything the DM can imagine.


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2007)

Yes, but I'd change this...

"The robe itself functions as if it were both a +4 cloak of resistance and a +4 ring of protection."

...to this...

"The robe grants a +4 resistance bonus to saving throws and a +4 deflection bonus to AC."

Forcing people to reference other items is _soooo_ First Edition.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Jun 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes, but I'd change this...
> 
> "The robe itself functions as if it were both a +4 cloak of resistance and a +4 ring of protection."
> 
> ...





I concur with Shade and with everything that has been suggested in my absence.  Let's polish this guy off and move on to the next!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 12, 2007)

Going back over the thread, looking for stuff we missed… didn’t find much.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Most have:
> At will—charm monster, major image, see invisibility/true seeing, suggestion, wall of fire;
> 
> He's definitiely a charmer, has see invisibility, and should have suggestion.
> ...






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’ll agree on charm monster and suggestion at will, and also dominate person and unholy aura 1/day.




D’oh!  I forgot that I said that.  does that sound good?


----------



## Shade (Jun 12, 2007)

That sounds good to me.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 13, 2007)

Looks like we just need to sort out Organization and CR (plus CR dependent stuff like AC and SR). We can remove the -X size from the AC line as he is a Medium creature.

So CR then, how about CR 21 which would give AC 42 (+10 Dex, +15 natural, +7 insight), touch 27, flat-footed 32. 

CR 21 would also give SR 34.

Do these seem reasonable?

Organization same as for Amduscias? or up it slightly as he leads more abishai?

Organization: Solitary (plus 1d6/1d8/1d10 or 2d6 abishai of assorted colors) ?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 13, 2007)

CR 21 sounds good.

AC 42 is spot-on for that CR, but we'll need to lower some of the bonuses to account for the +4 deflection bonus from his cloak.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> CR 21 sounds good.
> 
> AC 42 is spot-on for that CR, but we'll need to lower some of the bonuses to account for the +4 deflection bonus from his cloak.



Keep it simple, reduce the natural armor bonus by 4. 

So...

Armor Class: 42 (+10 Dex, +11 natural, +7 insight, +4 deflection), touch 31, flat-footed 39

How about organization? Same as Amduscias?
Of my suggests, I favour 2d6 abishai of assorted colours

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 13, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> So...
> 
> Armor Class: 42 (+10 Dex, +11 natural, +7 insight, +4 deflection), touch 31, flat-footed 39




shouldn't the flat-footed be 32?



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Organization same as for Amduscias? or up it slightly as he leads more abishai?
> 
> Organization: Solitary (plus 1d6/1d8/1d10 or 2d6 abishai of assorted colors) ?






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> How about organization? Same as Amduscias?
> Of my suggests, I favour 2d6 abishai of assorted colours




actually, we "retconned" Amdu's summoning to be 4d6 abishai automatically, and Mal's at 3d6.  i still see Amdu's retinue at 1d6 abishai, so we can either increase that or just keep Mal at 1d6 as well.  personally, i think 1d6 is fine, since they can both get more whenever they need.    however, i can also understand the desire to keep more around!


----------



## Mortis (Jun 13, 2007)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> shouldn't the flat-footed be 32?



Absolutely   I think I must of used Amdu's +3 Dex mod rather than Mal's +10 - at least when I was subtracting. 



> actually, we "retconned" Amdu's summoning to be 4d6 abishai automatically, and Mal's at 3d6.  i still see Amdu's retinue at 1d6 abishai, so we can either increase that or just keep Mal at 1d6 as well.  personally, i think 1d6 is fine, since they can both get more whenever they need.    however, i can also understand the desire to keep more around!



1d6 should be fine. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Jun 13, 2007)

Well, I'm not sure the AC needs to drop at all.  If it does, we could always change the +4 deflect to a +3 deflect.



A 21st level fighter, +5 sword with  31 Str (15 base, +5 inherant +5 levels +6 belt) has a +36 attack bonus.  A 21st level raging barbarian with the same stats has a +40 attack bonus.

This is before things like the weapon focus chain.  And assuming the character didn't have an 20 str half-orc base instead.



46 AC is not _too_ high for him.  44-45 might be kinder to the rogues and monks.


----------



## Shade (Jun 13, 2007)

I was using the other CR 20-22 archfiends and greater aspects as a baseline.   The hightest is Glasya at 46, followed by Dispater at 44.  The rest fall in the 39-43 range.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jun 13, 2007)

Well, I’m not terribly worried about the AC; 42 fits in well with what we figured out awhile ago, as well as Shade’s numbers.

How about regeneration?  We gave Admuscias regen 5, which might work equally well for Malphas.


----------



## Shade (Jun 13, 2007)

Regen 5 sounds fine.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Jun 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I was using the other CR 20-22 archfiends and greater aspects as a baseline.   The hightest is Glasya at 46, followed by Dispater at 44.  The rest fall in the 39-43 range.






I'll buy that.  I just wanted to cut against the idea that 46 was somehow 'too high' for such a CR.  It is high, but not too high.

A lot of epic playtesting over at Dicefreaks has borne out some stats that suggest things like resistance to energy 10, damage reduction 20/something and ACs under 40 become complete non-factors once actual epic play takes off.  (As opposed to 'mere' high level play where you might encounter a CR 20+ or several.)  I just want to make sure the design process takes that into account.


Regen 5 sounds ok, regen 10 sounds better to me.  Isn't regen 5 a pit fiend's level?  I'm looking at the CR 23 solar with regen 15 here.  Regen 10 gives us a clear bump up from the pit fiend and still leaves us with a regen 15 if we want to make the 'true Lords of the Nine' or the 'rabble of devilkin' at a higher regen rate than the Dukes.


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2007)

Kain - I can definitely buy your reasoning and agree that many of the early epic baselines are too low.

Our design philosophy, though, has always been to aim as closely to whatever WotC's doing, even if it isn't our preferred approach, so as to allow the greatest compatibility for folks looking to seamlessly integrate the conversions into their campaigns.   Sites like Dicefreaks do a great job of servicing the folks who like their epic a bit more epic.

In other words, whenever it seems like I'm disagreeing with you, I'm probably also agreeing with you on another level.    

Back on track, only the FCII Asmodeus has regen greater than 8, and even the BoVD archdevils, other than the top 3, didn't have regen 10 or more.   Pity the poor official archfiends once more.   :\


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Jun 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Kain - I can definitely buy your reasoning and agree that many of the early epic baselines are too low.
> 
> Our design philosophy, though, has always been to aim as closely to whatever WotC's doing, even if it isn't our preferred approach, so as to allow the greatest compatibility for folks looking to seamlessly integrate the conversions into their campaigns.   Sites like Dicefreaks do a great job of servicing the folks who like their epic a bit more epic.
> 
> In other words, whenever it seems like I'm disagreeing with you, I'm probably also agreeing with you on another level.




Ah, my intent here is not to disuade an approach that follows WotCs builds, but merely to properly assess abilities and their CR.




> Back on track, only the FCII Asmodeus has regen greater than 8, and even the BoVD archdevils, other than the top 3, didn't have regen 10 or more.   Pity the poor official archfiends once more.   :\




Well, it was my understanding that the FCII stats were merely 'powerful aspects' and that the Dukes of Hell we were doing are the 'real thing'.  An 'actual Asmodeus' could very well have a regen of 15-20 based on his advancement according to the guidelines given in the FC1 and FC2, right?  We are sort of assuming that the BoVD stats are around the 'real' power level even if they aren't exact stats, yes?

I'll still lend my vote toward Regen 10 for a CR 21 guy with the official solar having 15.  But I ain't gonna cry if you stick with 5.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 15, 2007)

hi!  

updating in homebrews!  (man, been a long while since i've said that)  how close is he to ready?

(Edit: the following rant isn't directed at anyone in particular except WotC, lest you think otherwise.  )

Re: epic stuff.  my biggest complaint about it is how *badly* the ELH, D&DG, and BoVD fit together, and how 3.5 has dealt with it.  seamless, smooth?  NOT!  if WotC had figured out from the beginning how powerful the higher end powerful beings were "supposed to be" rather than reinventing and reimagining it over and and over, D&D players wouldn't be having the endless debate over how powerful something is supposed to be.  of course, i'm sure i'm preaching to the choir here.    they didn't leave a whole lot of room between pit fiends and the weakest archfiends - in fact, for some things, i think pit fiends even beat out the archfiend aspects!  so i ignore trying to make the dukes 100% tougher than pit fiends and 100% weaker than the nine lords, and just go with whatever my gut tells me is right.

regarding the dukes of hell/rabble of devilkin, we gave quite a bit of thought to them and decided to put their stats somewhere slightly below the FC2 archduke aspects just for the sake of ease on our parts.  we came up with a formula for things like AC and HD and all that, so we wouldn't have to try to figure out where they're "supposed to be" for all 60 or so of them each time we move on to a new one.    the *intent* of this thread (whether i always follow through with it or not) is only to deal with the differences each duke has from each other - yeah, they're all going to have big numbers of HD and AC and all that so i don't want to spend a lot of time on it, but what makes each one unique from the others - that's what's interesting to me.    especially since devils have a lot less room for variation than demons...

i think the assumption in the later part of 3.5 (especially if you read the FC's) seems to be that these uber-beings are going to have whatever power level the DM wants to tailor his campaign to - and you know what?  that's just fine by me, in fact it makes a ton of sense when you think about it.  some DMs might think what we came up with for the dukes' stats is too powerful and make their CRs below 20; some might feel that they belong above 30 or even 40.  we can't please 'em all, so we just try to please ourselves.    oh wait, that didn't come out right...


----------



## freyar (Jun 15, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> we can't please 'em all, so we just try to please ourselves.




Isn't there a Kenny Rogers song about that? 

Edit: Sorry, looks like it's Ricky Nelson!   _Garden Party_, still plays on oldies stations now and then...


----------



## BOZ (Jun 16, 2007)

you gotta know when to hold 'em...

whoops, sorry!


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Come back, Kenny!

OK, looking over Homebrews...



> Organization: Solitary (plus 1d6 of assorted colors)




Solitary or troupe?



> Treasure: Triple standard? plus robe (or just double standard plus robe?)




I like double plus cloak...that thing, plus his pick, are worth bundles.

Other than that, he looks good.  I'd change "robe of gems" to something more flavorful...but I can't come up with anything at the moment.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like double plus cloak...that thing, plus his pick, are worth bundles.



I agree... and good point. 



> I'd change "robe of gems" to something more flavorful...



Malphas's Rainbow Robe?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd change "robe of gems" to something more flavorful...but I can't come up with anything at the moment.




neither could i.  

we can say "troupe" (how is that usually listed for powerful solitary beings with retinues?), though we listed Admuscias the same way.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Rainbow robe ain't bad at all.    

Pit fiend org looks like this:
troupe (1–2 pit fiends, 2–5 horned devils, and 2–5 barbed devils)

So maybe...

troupe (Malphas and 1–6 abishai of various colors)


----------



## BOZ (Jun 20, 2007)

That should do.    will fix that for Amdu as well.

The main problem with “rainbow robe” is that it conflict with his “I’m all dressed in blaaaaack!” image – plus, it makes me think of freakin’ Rainbow Randolph.


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

How about "gemcloak of the Dark Duke"?


----------



## BOZ (Jun 20, 2007)

that has a nice ring to it!


----------



## Angel Tarragon (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about "gemcloak of the Dark Duke"?



Thats awesome.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Jun 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about "gemcloak of the Dark Duke"?




That's golden.  Or would it be 'diamond'?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Another idea for the cloak's name (not that the gemcloak of the dark duke isn't a good one).

Thinking about how all the clothing (including the cloak) is black and the glitttering gems, how about the Starry Night Cloak or Cloak of Stars?

Taking the idea one stage further make the cloak an artefact and have it as a representation of a star cluster. Each gem taken and used from the cloak actually destroys the star it represents! As a bonus when the last gem is removed, the wearer notices another gem hidden under a nearly invisible patch. This gem represents the wearer's local star... 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jun 29, 2007)

interesting idea, but way too deep for D&D.  

"Star Robes" or "Night Robes" or even "Starry Starry Night Robes" all work well for me.  

updating in Homebrews one last time... if there's nothing more that needs to be done for him, we can finally move on to the next guy.


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

I think he's ready for his closeup.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 3, 2007)

excellent!    let's move on to the "rabble of devilkin"...

*NERGAL (Greater Devil)*

FREQUENCY: Unique (very rare)
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVE: 18”/10”
HIT DICE: 106 hit points
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 3-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 65%
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Lawful evil
SIZE: L (9’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 211
Attack/Defense Modes: All/all

Nergal is the most powerful of the “rabble of devilkin” banished to Avernus by the archdevils. Usually enveloped in magical darkness, Nergal appears as a lion-headed, winged toad. His mottled pinkish-grey, warty skin is covered with sores which ooze a clear, colorless ichor. This liquid is deadly poisonous to humans and demi-humans, who must save vs. poison to avoid this effect if contacted. If the save is successful, the ichor does 1-6 points of corrosive damage and confers immunity to its effects upon the victim for 10-40 turns. Nergal is sometimes called “The Bringer of Pestilence and Fever” because of this property.

Nergal is warlike, quick to attack those who defy him or bully injured or weaker creatures. His bite does 3-12 points of damage, and possibly confers a disease; refer to the DMG for type and effects. Victims who are bitten must save vs. poison at +3 to avoid disease.

Nergal can employ the following spell-like powers, one at a time and once per round: pyrotechnics, produce flame, wall of fire, continual light, tongues, read magic, detect magic, detect invisibility, dispel magic, and darkness 15. radius. He can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) by touch, if he so wills. Nergal regenerates 2 hit points per round. (Note that he cannot use a symbol, nor can he summon other devils to his aid.)

Nergal likes to present himself to human intruders as a fellow man horribly transformed by diabolic magic, and may .help. the intruders for a time, usually to learn of their powers, magic, treasure, and purposes, before luring them into a trap. Often he uses the powers and magic he obtains in this way to torment his victims; sometimes he hoards information and treasure he obtains to use it for bargaining purposes. Always, he builds and looks to the future, planning a forcible entry into the ranks of the dukes or archdevils. He has no fixed abode or lair, but often conceals caches of treasure or magic he has seized in caverns and grottos scattered all about Avernus.


----------



## Shade (Jul 3, 2007)

Rabble, rabble.

This guy could've been named Wartle, eh?    

It looks like no summon baatezu for this fella.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like no summon baatezu for this fella.



Shame we can't use the Shadows of Nergal, but we could use them as a basis for something. Or pehaps allow Nergal to summon nightwings?

I better not even suggest using the Hand of Nergal 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Jul 5, 2007)

This is the same guy who captured Elminster in El in Hell, so should we consider that book canon for this conversion?


----------



## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

I'd say we should definitely mine it for information.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Rabble, rabble.
> 
> This guy could've been named Wartle, eh?




nah, i get the feeling he's way cooler and more badass than wartle.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like no summon baatezu for this fella.




apparently not - i'd have to go back and check, but i think all of the rabble don't get to summon as part of their punishment/exile.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Shame we can't use the Shadows of Nergal, but we could use them as a basis for something. Or pehaps allow Nergal to summon nightwings?
> 
> I better not even suggest using the Hand of Nergal




i'd rather avoid using too much stuff from mythology, or from other sources using characters named nergal (or nurgle, heh).  we should take what is written and build on that; anything else that fits well with the concept is OK, but i don't want to stray too far from the D&D source material.



			
				Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> This is the same guy who captured Elminster in El in Hell, so should we consider that book canon for this conversion?




i don't know... i heard that Greenwood kind of rewrote the D&D cosmology as he saw fit for his novels.  like Shade says, we can mine it for ideas, but i wouldn't otherwise go to far into the novel hoping for canon.  still and all though, Greenwood did invent the "rabble" so... we'll see i guess.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 9, 2007)

Ok, on to his abilities:



			
				Dragon 75 said:
			
		

> *Usually enveloped in magical darkness*, Nergal appears as a lion-headed, winged toad.




Probably covered by the SLA mentioned below…



			
				Dragon 75 said:
			
		

> His mottled pinkish-grey, warty skin is covered with sores which ooze a clear, colorless ichor. This liquid is deadly poisonous to humans and demi-humans, who must save vs. poison to avoid this effect if contacted. If the save is successful, the ichor does 1-6 points of corrosive damage and confers immunity to its effects upon the victim for 10-40 turns. Nergal is sometimes called “The Bringer of Pestilence and Fever” because of this property.




Contact poison, obviously.  It could possibly be conferred on a touch attack, but I wouldn’t go for on the bite attack (don’t want to double up since the bite is diseased).  Otherwise, I’d say anyone hitting him with natural weapons or touching him for any reason would be poisoned.  “Corrosive” seems to imply acid, doesn’t it?  I would retain the “creatures are immune after the first hit” aspect, though the duration is up for grabs.  I could see the poison having a secondary effect beyond the acid, maybe some ability damage or something similar.



			
				Dragon 75 said:
			
		

> Nergal is warlike, quick to attack those who defy him or bully injured or weaker creatures. His bite does 3-12 points of damage, and possibly confers a disease; refer to the DMG for type and effects. Victims who are bitten must save vs. poison at +3 to avoid disease.




Not sure what diseases were in the 1E DMG, but maybe we can compare those to the ones in the 3E DMG and see what we like…



			
				Dragon 75 said:
			
		

> Nergal can employ the following spell-like powers, one at a time and once per round: pyrotechnics, produce flame, wall of fire, continual light, tongues, read magic, detect magic, detect invisibility, dispel magic, and darkness 15. radius.




Those are all pretty standard, and I think they are mostly in 3E in one form or another.



			
				Dragon 75 said:
			
		

> He can cause fear (save vs. spell to avoid) by touch, if he so wills.




So then, a touch attack which causes fear, and deals poison as well?  Sweet.


----------



## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Probably covered by the SLA mentioned below…




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Contact poison, obviously.  It could possibly be conferred on a touch attack, but I wouldn’t go for on the bite attack (don’t want to double up since the bite is diseased).  Otherwise, I’d say anyone hitting him with natural weapons or touching him for any reason would be poisoned.  “Corrosive” seems to imply acid, doesn’t it?  I would retain the “creatures are immune after the first hit” aspect, though the duration is up for grabs.  I could see the poison having a secondary effect beyond the acid, maybe some ability damage or something similar.




Rather than contact poison, I think it's more akin to a Mestil's acid sheath (or a fire shield that does acid damage).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Not sure what diseases were in the 1E DMG, but maybe we can compare those to the ones in the 3E DMG and see what we like…




Well, devil chills seems appropriate.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Those are all pretty standard, and I think they are mostly in 3E in one form or another.




Yup.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> So then, a touch attack which causes fear, and deals poison as well?  Sweet.




Indeed.


----------



## Kain Darkwind (Jul 17, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> like Shade says, we can mine it for ideas, but i wouldn't otherwise go to far into the novel hoping for canon.  still and all though, Greenwood did invent the "rabble" so... we'll see i guess.





*Re: Nergal via Elminster in Hell*

Ok.  I read through the book several times and this seems to be all of the direct passages that involve him.  To summarize my thoughts:

32-33 HD.  Wisdom as his lowest mental score.  (Suggestion: 39 Str, 17 Dex, 30 Con, 28 Int, 19 Wis, 27 Cha)  8 tentacle primary attacks dealing 1d10 damage.  2 claws dealing 2d8 damage.  1 bite dealing 3d6 damage.  Barbed body, constrict, disease and rock throwing for special attacks.  Reach 10 feet normal, 15-20 feet with tentacles.  Spell-like Abilities: Always active – _true seeing_; at will – _baleful polymorph, delayed blast fireball, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, hellfire storm, regenerate, scry, shapechange, silence_ 3/day – _destruction, mindrape*_ 1/day – _contingency, dimensional anchor_  Caster level 25th.

*BoVD

This is all in addition to whatever the Dragon magazine has to say about him and his capabilities or where it overrides.

Here is a more detailed explanation of how I justified what.  Keep in mind that the gentle talons, spines, chain and collar, doomblade and brightbolt spell are not accounted for above…I have no idea what would get me those effects.



			
				”EiH p 21” said:
			
		

> Dispater is no greater than I, nor Baalzebul






			
				”EiH p. 24” said:
			
		

> There are dozens of us outcasts, eight among us with power to challenge, say, Mammon, if the battle were between two, alone, without armies to call on.




While the first statement sounds clearly boastful (directly prior he says he is more powerful than Tiamat), the second seems less so and more informative.  I strongly suggest we place Nergal’s HD around that of the second lowest of the Lords of the Nine (ignoring Bel).  (Are we assuming the BoVD stats are the ‘true’ stats for the Lords or at least a close approximation?)  The non-Bel Lords have from 33-38 HD.  I say the ‘rabble’ has between 29 and 33 HD, with Nergal at the top.

This is also keeping in Mr. Greenwood’s original intent for this ‘rabble of devilkin’.  They are throneless archdevils, merely waiting the proper opportunity to be elevated to the status of one of the Nine.  They are to be for the most part, on par with Lords and above Dukes.



			
				”EiH p. 71 said:
			
		

> {Nergal has} …shown himself to be a brute with wits scarce swifter than a cunning spellsword




I believe this reflects a less than stellar Wisdom score for Nergal.  Of his mental stats, it should probably be the lowest.

Mr. Greenwood describes Nergal frequently as using tentacles (which are located around his jaws as a sort of beard) that slash, pierce and bludgeon/slap.  I think this quality might properly be included.  They also are described as constricting, so I think that should be a special attack of his.  Page 20 describes an attack routine against Elminster using them, page 235 describes the same against a spinagon.  Plenty of other times he uses these as well, enough that I think they should be his primary attack routine.  The picture of Nergal (found at the beginning of each chapter) shows about eight tentacles.  If we include 8 tentacles as a full attack routine, plus his secondary weapons of bite and 2 claws, that gives him eleven attacks in a full round.  While that is not really bad for an epic creature like him, we might want to ‘tone down’ the tentacle attack to perhaps 1d8 or 1d10, rather than increase it.  (The 3.5 pit fiend has seriously damaging natural weapons for a creature of its size, better than anything it wields.)  While I’m normally encouraged to use that as a stepping up point for archdevils and dukes, in this case I think it might overwhelm the CR.

Which brings us to secondary attacks.  Page 72 gives us 2 massive claw attacks.  Page 158 gives us a bite attack.  I’d suggest making these deal the same damage that a pit fiend does, no more.  

Page 24, 71-72 all describe vicious barbs emerging from his body.  I suggest we give him the quality of a hamatula, advanced a few damage dice for size.

Page 255-256 describes Nergal flinging boulders, enough to crush and bury Halaster Blackcloak.  It is described as “a cloud of stones” and Nergal is said to be ‘clutching four more boulders in his tentacles’.

Page 256 describes him growing scorpion stinger tails during battle to match his many tentacles.  This is perhaps a spell-like ability, but it could be simply a function of some alter form ability.

p. 256.  “The ground under Halaster thrust up in huge fangs of dark, smoking devil bone, much as the mad wizard had first attacked Nergal.  Like that attack, those fangs transfixed their target.  This could be just a long reach for his tentacles, because Halaster is impaled on them directly afterwards.  It could also be a spell that allows one’s hands to burrow through the ground to come up and spear others.  I’m not sure.

p. 363.  After being defeated the first time by Nergal, Halaster suffered a disease or curse that ripped through his body, changing him partially into a devil, talons, spines and wings bursting through his skin only to fade away as more replaced them.  Devil chills from his tentacles?  _Contagion_?  If what I mention before is simply his tentacles striking, this could just be like a pit fiend’s disease attack, tied to the tentacles.  It could also be a more severe and less permanent form of warp touch, in the BoVD.


*Spell-like abilities*

_Dispel/greater dispel magic/disjunction_ p. 17.  (Dispels Elminster’s polymorph/shapechange spell that he saw right through, so I’d suggest greater at will or a 1/day disjunction..1d20+10 will never dispel a DC 40, 1d20 + 20 only dispels on a natural 20)

_silence_ p. 21. “’Be still.’  Elminster suddenly found himself silent, though his throat still rippled in midshriek…”

_cure critical wounds/heal/regenerate_ p. 24  “The archdevil…staunched the welling choking blood in his mouth.”  And Nergal states “I can tear out your every organ… and restore you with my magic.  This is Hell, and here archdevils can do anything!”  p. 254 “Nergal let healing fire wash briefly over the shuddering human in his hands[/i]

_scry?_ p. 25 “with my time and magic, I watch your magic-rich Toril”

_regenerate_ p. 26 “darting tentacles touched…sending smaller spells through [Elminster] until the naked exhausted man could stand once more.”  (Elminster had been torn apart by Nergal previously.)

_destruction_ p. 130 “cloaked in a shield of Hell-magic as blast after wet, spattering blast heralded Nergal’s triumph over the hapless (pit) fiend.  Spells upon spells resounded, enough to shatter even the rock upon which they’d been standing and leave ashes of the mighty devil.”

_shapechange/polymorph_ p 236.  “He’d best take the shape of one of the pit fiends he’d slain.  So good-bye tentacles and fair greeting to great arching wings and a bulk as large as four Nergals”  (He shapechanged into a Huge sized pit fiend) 

_polymorph any object/baleful polymorph_ p. 254.  “He bent his will and watched his magic turn the scrawny man slowly into a creature of Hell: a nupperibo.

_contingency_ p 395.  Teleported away as Elminster unleashed a spell that destroyed him.


*Non-obvious spells/spell-like abilities* 

‘Gentle Talons’ p. 17.  Described as capable of absorbing any spell Elminster casts to strengthen the bonds, which allow Nergal to sense where Elminster is and possibly serve as a dimensional anchor.  (Except where Nergal’s own power is concerned)  

‘blue fire’ and ‘red and purple fire’  pp. 68, 73, 200.  Text has it destroying devils, so it can’t be fire damage.  Perhaps _hellfire or hellfire storm_?  Occurs enough to be at will.

‘spines’ grown on another creature for protection p. 159  

‘mind worm’ bulk of the book is Elminster’s memories being fed to the archdevil.  Nergal learns them as they are removed from Elminster. It also seems responsible for linking Elminster and Nergal’s minds together and throughout the linkage, Nergal frequently punishes Elminster with a possible related effect named a mind-bolt, mind-lash or mind-slap.  On page 318, he casts the spell again, ‘letting the old one crumble to dust before beginning the next’  _mindrape_ from BoVD? _Programmed amnesia_ from Spell Compendium?  _telepathic bond_?  It could be as often as 3/day, maybe even at will.

‘chain and collar’ pp. 253, 276.  Fashioned several times…I’m unsure if this is a physical chain or a magical one (beyond merely being magically created)

‘doomblade’ p. 254  Binds a demon for 100 years in the shape of a sword.  Nergal does not cast this spell, he merely remarks that he can cast it.

‘black and ruby-red flames’ p. 256.  Shatter rocks.  Possibly more blue/red/purple fire.  

‘brightbolt spell’ p. 256.  “A flurry of bolts twice as large and numerous as Halaster’s streaked back at the mage.  The very stones on which he stood vanished in blast after blast that hurled the agent of Mystra into the air.”  Seems like a much more powerful magic missile spell.  


‘mighty magic that left him trembling’ p. 312  This set of spells teleports Elminster to the lair of another archdevil, teleports Nergal away, and leaves a delayed blast fireball for Simbul to set off.  I suggest _teleport other_ and _delayed blast fireball_ in addition to his innate devilish greater teleport.


‘red and black fire/bolts’ p. 393.  Fails to harm The Simbul, but probably similar to the earlier ‘red and purple fire’.  This one is more powerful than the previous ones, so perhaps if he has hellfire at will, he has hellfire storm 1/day.  Or perhaps it is just easier to give him hellfire storm at will and leave the differences to dramatic license on the part of the author.




There we go.  We can take it, we can leave it, we can use it to fill in a few gaps, but there it is.


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## Shade (Jul 17, 2007)

Great stuff, Kain!   Thanks for sharing.


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## BOZ (Jul 24, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> *Re: Nergal via Elminster in Hell*
> 
> Ok.  I read through the book several times and this seems to be all of the direct passages that involve him.




awesome, thanks!   i'll read through it thoroughly when i'm ready to jump back into this thread (it will happen, just can't say when)


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

New Dragon article on the Dukes of Hell is up

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> New Dragon article on the Dukes of Hell is up




Awesome!   And its not even a thinly-veiled ad for 4e!


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## freyar (Oct 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> New Dragon article on the Dukes of Hell is up




The only thing that saddens me about this one is that Kobold Quarterly is doing these, too, and I think Wolfgang's version of Titivilus is much more compelling.  Ah well, duplication isn't too bad.


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

I saved the Dragon article to take home. At home it complained that I wasn't logged into to DnD Insider which isn't surprising seeing as I'm not on the net at home (only work), a small change in the html fixed that   

Regards
Mortis


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## Kain Darkwind (Nov 26, 2007)

So were we going to pick this up, using the Dragon Dukes as a closer reference point?


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## Mortis (Nov 26, 2007)

AFAIK, this (and a number of other threads) are waiting for the return of BOZ.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 26, 2007)

Yeah, BOZ has been having computer problems at home, from where he usually visits ENWorld.   I've kept a bunch of stuff going while he's gone, but this and the overhaul thread are his "babies", so I didn't want to proceed without him.

I'll shoot him an e-mail and see how things are going.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

BOZ sent his blessing to continue this thread.

However, before we do too much work, I'd like to see which Dukes get the treatment is this month's "online Dragon" so as to not duplicate effort.


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## Kain Darkwind (Dec 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> BOZ sent his blessing to continue this thread.
> 
> However, before we do too much work, I'd like to see which Dukes get the treatment is this month's "online Dragon" so as to not duplicate effort.




Do we know that more Dukes ARE getting a treatment in that zombie corpse?


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> Do we know that more Dukes ARE getting a treatment in that zombie corpse?




Yeah, but all we know is as follows:



> Dragon #361The November/December issue of Dragon is here! This issue will feature even more detailed 4th Edition coverage, on everything from dwarves to bulettes. We'll also be featuring a crossover between the Exemplars of Evil and Elder Evils supplements to prepare you for Dungeon #152's "Essence of Evil" adventure, *more members of the Infernal Aristocracy*, more Realmslore and Expeditionary Dispatches, and a new Ecology. Plus, coming in December, a new D&D Insider Presents cartoon, featuring a pair of creatures who've undergone quite a change of scenery in the new edition.




FWIW, I've got another batch of epic beasties to covert to hold us over for awhile.  I'll post 'em shortly.


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## Shade (Dec 14, 2007)

And now we know...

Agares
Tartach
Lilith
Hutijin
Adramalech

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071212


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## Kain Darkwind (Dec 14, 2007)

Well, the first thing that stands out immediately....


These Dukes aren't being compared to the Demonomicon demon prince stats.  Many of them have as many HD as Graz'zt or Demogorgon.  So unless we are operating off the idea that Lords of Hell >>>>> Demon Princes, this provides a bad level of comparison.


A few other things....despite being largely an oversized pit fiend, Hutijin is weaker than the weakest possible Huge size pit fiend, and weaker than an average Large sized pit fiend.  His natural attacks deal much less damage than the 3.5 pit fiend.  His spell-likes are also weaker.

Basically, I don't know if Enworld should use the Digital Dragon's stats for Dukes of Hell.  They don't seem to be designed taking the other major baddie stats from Dragon into any consideration.  Or even the Monster Manual's.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

Kain Darkwind said:
			
		

> Basically, I don't know if Enworld should use the Digital Dragon's stats for Dukes of Hell.  They don't seem to be designed taking the other major baddie stats from Dragon into any consideration.  Or even the Monster Manual's.




Agreed.  We need to try to fit them into the power hierarchy presented by FC I and II.


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2008)

Getting back to Nergal...

BOZ had him begged at 28 HD.

Abilities: We will use the divine array of 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24, plus adding one ability point per four Hit Dice, and borrowing liberally as we see fit. Many lords will end up with one score under 20.

Maybe...

Str 38, Dex 22, Con 29, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 30?


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2008)

I went back over all the stuff and added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

This guy is long overdue for completion.   Look upthread for the major discussion points.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

Well, stats look good.  Are we dropping summon baatezu as discussed above?

Seems like a number of the points discussed upthread have not yet made it into the homebrews; should we go through and pick those out?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Well, stats look good.  Are we dropping summon baatezu as discussed above?




Yes.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Seems like a number of the points discussed upthread have not yet made it into the homebrews; should we go through and pick those out?




Sounds like a good idea.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Ok, here's what I find upthread.

No summon baatezu.

Acid & poison skin (maybe just acid version of fire shield).  Diseased bite.

SLA: pyrotechnics, produce flame, wall of fire, continual light, tongues, read magic, detect magic, detect invisibility, dispel magic, and darkness 15. radius. (modified slightly for 3e).

Fear causing touch attack (also deals acid due to skin).

Str 38, Dex 22, Con 29, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 30 suggested.

There's also a lot Kain Darkwind pointed out from Elminster in Hell.

Some of this is in homebrews, but I think the SLA list there looks a little wonky.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> No summon baatezu.




Right.  We're good here.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Acid & poison skin (maybe just acid version of fire shield).  Diseased bite.




How about an ongoing effect equal to Mestil's acid sheath?

Devil chills for the bite?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> SLA: pyrotechnics, produce flame, wall of fire, continual light, tongues, read magic, detect magic, detect invisibility, dispel magic, and darkness 15. radius. (modified slightly for 3e).




That needs to be merged/mixed with the list in Homebrews.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Fear causing touch attack (also deals acid due to skin).




We can use the scarecrow's cowering touch as a prototype for the fear part.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Str 38, Dex 22, Con 29, Int 24, Wis 24, Cha 30 suggested.




Hmmm...I'll need to backtrack to see where those stats in Homebrews came from (they don't appear to be from cut n' pasting a previous Duke).



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> There's also a lot Kain Darkwind pointed out from Elminster in Hell.




Indeed.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Some of this is in homebrews, but I think the SLA list there looks a little wonky.




It's a direct copy from Kain's post here.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about an ongoing effect equal to Mestil's acid sheath?
> 
> Devil chills for the bite?



Mestil's acid sheath sounds about right, but I don't know that spell off hand.  Devil chills seem appropriate to me, too.



> We can use the scarecrow's cowering touch as a prototype for the fear part.



That, or Ambuchar Devayam's touch.  Maybe we should take a look at them both.



> Hmmm...I'll need to backtrack to see where those stats in Homebrews came from (they don't appear to be from cut n' pasting a previous Duke).



Here's your post.

I suggest making the SLA list as follows:

Spell-Like Abilities: Always active – true seeing; at will – baleful polymorph, continual flame, darkness, delayed blast fireball, detect magic, greater dispel magic, greater teleport, hellfire storm, produce flame, pyrotechnics, read magic, regenerate, scry, shapechange, silence 3/day – destruction, mindrape* 1/day – contingency, dimensional anchor Caster level 25th. *BoVD

I dropped see invisibility due to true seeing and tongues due to the tongues Su ability.  I went with darkness rather than deeper darkness bc I think that fits the 15 ft radius better.  Thoughts?


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2008)

Updated based on the other ability scores.  Fixed SLAs, too.

Here's the important parts of Mestil's acid sheath:

"You enclose yourself in a fluid sheath of acid that does not harm you. You can breathe normally and cast spells while the acid sheath is present. Any creature striking you deals normal damage, but at the same time the attacker takes 2 points of acid damage per caster level (maximum 30 points). Reach weapons, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. The acid sheath does not protect you against other attack forms, such as fire.  If you are in a grapple, other creatures in the grapple take acid damage once per round at the beginning of their turn."

"Any spell you cast with the acid descriptor while the sheath surrounds you deals an extra 1 point of damage per die."


Cowering Touch (Su): If a scarecrow hits with a claw attack, the victim must succeed on a DC 12 Will saving throw or cower for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Frightful Strike (Su): Any creature struck by the incorporeal touch of Ambuchar Devayam must succeed on a DC 23 Will save or cower for 1d4 rounds. Even on a successful save, the victim must make a second DC 23 Will save or be panicked for 1d4 rounds. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2008)

Oooh, I like acid sheath, very nice.  I feel like I should know where that's from, but I don't.  Anyway, if we want to make use of the extra damage points, we should use energy substitution on the fireball, produce flame, etc, in his SLAs.

I think the scarecrow's cowering touch is good enough here.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2008)

It's from Magic of Faerun, and later, Spell Compendium.

Good suggestion on energy substitution.


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## freyar (Jun 25, 2008)

Ok, I'm ready to add cowering touch and the acid sheath.  Let's not forget to add devil chills to the bite.  From Kain's post, do you want to add barbed defense?


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## Shade (Jun 25, 2008)

Updated.  Do we still have a need for poison?

I'll look back over Kain's post to see why he suggested barbed defense.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2008)

> His mottled pinkish-grey, warty skin is covered with sores which ooze a clear, colorless ichor. This liquid is deadly poisonous to humans and demi-humans, who must save vs. poison to avoid this effect if contacted. If the save is successful, the ichor does 1-6 points of corrosive damage and confers immunity to its effects upon the victim for 10-40 turns. Nergal is sometimes called “The Bringer of Pestilence and Fever” because of this property.



It sounds like the poison part is even worse than the acid, but maybe we've upped the acid damage enough to make it reasonable.  We could say that victims of the acid damage must save or be sickened or something.

You know, given the acid sheath, barbed defense might be a little redundant.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

So are they implying "poison causes death"?


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## freyar (Jun 30, 2008)

Shade said:


> So are they implying "poison causes death"?



That's what I thought.


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## Shade (Jun 30, 2008)

In that case, maybe some good ol' fashioned Con damage poison is appropriate?

Also, Updated with flavor text.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

Alternatively, why not borrow from the pit fiend?

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC x, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage death. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

He's an ugly fella', isn't he! 

Yeah, pit fiend poison sounds appropriate here.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

He sure is.  

How's this?

Poison (Ex): Creatures hitting Nergal with natural weapons or unarmed attacks are subject to his poison.  Contact, Fortitude DC 33, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage death. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

You think he needs any more SAs, or are we ready to fill in x's?

I'm going to start by saying DR should probably be 20 and regeneration 5.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Skills: 15 at 31 ranks
Feats: 10 (3 can be epic)

Revisiting the Monster Conversion Notes for the Dukes of Hell...

Common Feats

Common: Combat Expertise, Dark Speech, Dodge, Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability, Weapon Focus

Less Common: Combat Reflexes, Dilate Aura, Negotiator, Spring Attack, Violate Spell-Like Ability

Uncommon: Ability Focus, Improved Critical, Improved Disarm, Vile Natural Attack

Common Skills

Note that skills in bold are taken by the majority of archdevils.

Appraise = mid to high ranks
Balance = low to mid ranks when used
Bluff = usually max ranks
Climb = high to max ranks when used
Concentration = mid to high ranks
Diplomacy = usually max ranks
Disguise = high ranks or synergy only 
Escape Artist = few ranks 
Gather Information = mid to high ranks when used
Hide = mid to high ranks
Intimidate = high to max ranks
Jump = mid to high ranks 
Knowledge (arcana) = high to max ranks 
Knowledge (history) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (nobility and royalty) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (religion) = high to max ranks
Knowledge (the planes) = high to max ranks
Listen = high to max ranks
Move Silently = mid to high ranks
Search = mid to high ranks
Sense Motive = high to max ranks
Spellcraft = high to max ranks
Spot = high to max ranks
Survival = synergy only
Tumble = high to max ranks 
Use Rope = synergy only


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

Somehow that looks intimidating.

Well, Dark Speech and Quicken SLA look like good feat choices, and I think Combat Reflexes sounds right for his personality (somehow he sounds like he'd want to take lots of AoOs).  I'll ponder this more...


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Ok, here's what I think of so far for the feats (and a little BUMP back to the first page):

Combat Reflexes, Dark Speech, Quicken SLA (greater teleport?), Imp Init, ?

What are Dilate Aura and Violate SLA?  I'm guessing these are from BOVD.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Correct on Violate SLA, and Dilate Aura is from FCII.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

I really ought to pick up those books sometime.  I'm not sure he's got an "aura" for this, but what about giving him violate SLA on something?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

Updated.

I noticed we failed to give him a claw attack, yet his cowering touch is delivered by his claws.  Suggested damage for the claws?

Greater teleport is too high-level to quicken.  He can quicken up to 6th-level SLAs.  Violate SLA lists no suggested limit, but I think it should at least follow the less restrictive Empower SLA guideline, which allows Nergal to apply it up to 8th-level spells.  So maybe quicken pyrotechnics, violate delayed blast fireball?

Some other suggestions:  Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Vile Natural Attack (bite)


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2008)

Hmm, 1d8?

Figured I should have looked up greater teleport as well.   The feat suggestions, including SLAs, look good.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Updated.

We need 1 more feat.

Speed: 50 ft (10 squares), fly 30 ft. (x)  (x=average?)



> Nergal often masquerades as a human horribly misfigured by diabolic magic, appealing to the mercy of planar travelers in order to gain their trust. He then leads them into a trap, stealing anything of value and tormenting them for information he may later use to his gain.




Skills: How about Appraise 21, Bluff 31, Concentration 21, Diplomacy 31, Disguise 31, Gather Information 20, Intimidate 31, Jump 31, Knowledge (arcana) 20, Knowledge (history) 31, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) 31, Knowledge (religion) 20, Knowledge (the planes) 31, Listen 20, Search 13, Sense Motive 31, Spot 20, Tumble 31?

Nergal is 9 feet tall and weighs X pounds.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

If the flight's natural, then average sounds right.  If magical, then let's go with good maneuverability.

Skills sound right.

How fat do you think he is?   A rough middle-of-the-road estimate might be 450 lb, but my mental image is probably that he's a bit heavier for some reason.

Maybe Dire Charge for the last feat?


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

He's got wings, so I'm thinking natural flight.  

A hezrou is 750 pounds and a foot smaller.  I picture him with a similar build, so maybe 800?

Dire Charge sounds good.

Double standard treasure like many of the other Dukes?  Shall we give him some carried magic items, as his flavor implies he uses items to increase his power?


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2008)

Yup, that all sounds good.  

I'm struck by something looking at the magic items: how useful can eyes of charming be?  By the time anyone can afford them, anyone of consequence they meet will be able to beat the DC pretty easily, I'd think.[/threadjack]

Could he use an amulet of the planes? Darkskull?  Eyes of petrification?  Pick what seems appropriate...


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

You threw me with that threadjack...I was trying to figure out where we'd given Nergal eyes of charming!  

But yes, they are a rather ineffective magic items.  Same goes with some of the low-end items with a fixed DC of 12.  Ugh.

Ooh...darkskull could be fun for him.  Maybe a ring of freedom of movement as well?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2008)

Shade said:


> You threw me with that threadjack...I was trying to figure out where we'd given Nergal eyes of charming!
> 
> But yes, they are a rather ineffective magic items.  Same goes with some of the low-end items with a fixed DC of 12.  Ugh.




Hehe, oops.   Didn't mean to confuse you there.  Anyway, I wish the MIC had repriced some of the core magic items...


> Ooh...darkskull could be fun for him.  Maybe a ring of freedom of movement as well?




If he can afford it, those sound like good choices.


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## Shade (Jul 21, 2008)

Updated.

Are we finally finished?


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## freyar (Jul 22, 2008)

Good enough for me! All hail the vile Nergal!


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## Leopold (Jun 20, 2009)

sigh. A year too late.

Although my conversion of Fast Forwards' Encyclopedia of Demons and devils might help with this. We shall see!


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2009)

Well, I'm sure we'll return to this thread sometime.


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