# Marvel to Launch Official 'MARVEL MULTIVERSE' Tabletop Role-Playing Game in 2022



## payn (Jun 4, 2021)

Hmm, "All new D616 system" what does that mean?


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## Parmandur (Jun 4, 2021)

Earth-616 is the designation within the Marvel Multiverse for the classic comic book continuity (as opposed to Earth-199999 for the MCU, or Earth-1218 for the real world). Each possible Earth history has a "coordinate," so to speak.


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## R_J_K75 (Jun 4, 2021)

Sounds intriguing, but I wonder how many cross over issues will I need to buy to complete an adventure?


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 4, 2021)

What's the over/under on how many books come out for this before Marvel yanks the license out from under them? Recent history has shown that this will be likely.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Forbeck was the designer behind _Brave New World_, a short-lived supers game from Pinnacle Entertainment. I wonder if D616 will be a mechanical descendant, or if it will really be "all new".


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## R_J_K75 (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> What's the over/under on how many books come out for this before Marvel yanks the license out from under them? Recent history has shown that this will be likely.



Thats the whole plot of Phase 5. now its ruined.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> What's the over/under on how many books come out for this before Marvel yanks the license out from under them? Recent history has shown that this will be likely.




Well, it looks like this is being published by Marvel Entertainment itself.  It is hard to yank a license out from under _yourself_.

The bigger question is whether this game will have the same base flaw as Marvel Super Heroic Role Playing - centered on playing canonical characters and past comics plotlines, rather than playing your own.


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 4, 2021)

R_J_K75 said:


> Thats the whole plot of Phase 5. now its ruined.



I thought the plot of Phase 5 is that Dumbledore dies.


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## R_J_K75 (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> I thought the plot of Phase 5 is that Dumbledore dies.



And Dumbo flies


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Well, it looks like this is being published by Marvel Entertainment itself.  It is hard to yank a license out from under _yourself_.



Fair point. I didn't catch that. Let me rephrase. 

What's the over/under until Marvel stops publishing this when they see first hand how little money is in RPGs in comparison to everything else they slap Marvel on?


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## Abstruse (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> What's the over/under on how many books come out for this before Marvel yanks the license out from under them? Recent history has shown that this will be likely.



On the one hand, this is being done in-house by Marvel so there's no license to yank. Marvel owns the Marvel properties.

On the other hand, this is the second tabletop RPG that Marvel has done in-house after the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game, which they supported for a little over a year before letting it stagnate and selling a license to Margaret Weis Productions for Marvel Heroic.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> What's the over/under until Marvel stops publishing this when they see first hand how little money is in RPGs in comparison to everything else they slap Marvel on?




We'll see.  I think Marvel Entertainment, under Disney, is apt to have rather more business sense than they used to.  The flip side of the coin is that, for Disney, developing and publishing an RPG is a petty cash endeavor.


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## payn (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> Fair point. I didn't catch that. Let me rephrase.
> 
> What's the over/under until Marvel stops publishing this when they see first hand how little money is in RPGs in comparison to everything else they slap Marvel on?



I think it will really depend on marketing and social media presence. This could piggy back off 5E popularity if it got its own critical role kinda thing going.


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> We'll see.  I think Marvel Entertainment, under Disney, is apt to have rather more business sense than they used to.  The flip side of the coin is that, for Disney, developing and publishing an RPG is a petty cash endeavor.



That's my thinking. I'm sure it will make money. But will it make enough money to justify their effort when they could make just as much licensing spiderman on a lunchbox, and far more easily?


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## bulletmeat (Jun 4, 2021)

I'm foreseeing a lot of cards, chits, special dice, particular 'character cards', etc.  Lots of things to try to keep a steady stream of cash coming in.  Then the universe books, heroes & villians for each.  Specific organizational books, etc.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> That's my thinking. I'm sure it will make money. But will it make enough money to justify their effort when they could make just as much licensing spiderman on a lunchbox, and far more easily?




But they _already have_ the lunchbox, and pretty much every other kind of merchandise you can name.  I've got a Spider-Man spatula, for cripes' sake!  Once you have saturate the market with lunch boxes, you start looking for new opportuinities, even if they are marginal.

Us old people may not be familiar with it, but Marvel has a New Media unit these days that has been working its way into the podcast space, including scripted dramas.

It is a hop, skip, and a jump from there to looking at Critical Role's popularity, and sensing something worth trying.  But, you can't really try that unless you actually have an RPG upon which to center a podcast....


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## TwoSix (Jun 4, 2021)

Quote from the article: "Use Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic to win the day, and discover your true abilities as you face impossible odds!"

Sounds pretty D&Dish based on that; renamed 6 stats and "discover your true abilities" sure sounds like level progression.


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## Sunsword (Jun 4, 2021)

The full press release can be viewed here but in Spring 2022 there will be Playtest of the Marvel 616 system designed by Matt Forbeck (Deadlands, Brave New World, Shotguns & Sorceries).


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## darjr (Jun 4, 2021)

Marvel to Launch Official 'MARVEL MULTIVERSE' Tabletop Role-Playing Game in 2022
					

Matt Forbeck announced on Twitter that he’s working on a new in-house D616 Marvel RPG due for a 2022 release! It looks like there will be an open playtest.    What’s the D617 System? “… the all-new D616 System, an accessible and easy-to-learn system for newcomers to tabletop RPGs and a natural...




					www.enworld.org


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## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 4, 2021)

I can only hope that the base mechanic somehow involves rolling a d6 and a d16.

Marvel comics are a great property for an RPG. Back in the day TSR got so many books out of just keeping up with the comics.


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## DeviousQuail (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> But they _already have_ the lunchbox, and pretty much every other kind of merchandise you can name.  I've got a Spider-Man spatula, for cripes' sake!



'For crepes sake' was right there.


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## TwoSix (Jun 4, 2021)

It's also interesting to see they're going the PF2 route of selling a physical playtest book.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

DeviousQuail said:


> 'For crepes sake' was right there.




I did not want to turn this from a discussion of an upcoming game into a thread of food puns.


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## Delazar (Jun 4, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic



M.A.R.V.E.L.!

I’m sold!


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## Morrus (Jun 4, 2021)

Biggest movie franchise in the world! This is going to be very interesting to watch.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Forbeck is a great choice for this. Brave New World was highly regarded in its time.

My biggest concern right now is whether they want to wed themselves to a Thor design that is _not_ sticking around. (Yeesh, it's so bad.)


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## Morrus (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> Fair point. I didn't catch that. Let me rephrase.
> 
> What's the over/under until Marvel stops publishing this when they see first hand how little money is in RPGs in comparison to everything else they slap Marvel on?



Disney is still licensing out Star Wars for the RPG.


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## imagineGod (Jun 4, 2021)

But will it be better than Mutants and Masterminds? Else, why?


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## TwoSix (Jun 4, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Biggest movie franchise in the world! This is going to be very interesting to watch.



I'm interested to see whether this is aimed at an audience that primarily knows Marvel from their media properties, or the more hardcore comic book readers.  I'm expecting (and hoping) for the former, with some Easter eggs and deep cuts for the latter.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 4, 2021)

We should remember Disney has got a lot of means to promote this title.

I stay with this phrase:



> a natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games on the market.




This sounds like the new system will be designed to be easy to be learn and understod for players used to d20 System. But, I doubt seriously it was a system with a leveling-up as D&D. Maybe, but I imagine one with two pillars, one of them linked with hit-points and bonus for attacks and checks, but "frozen" if we talk about characters too powerful, and the second pillar would be like unlocking tiers or a talent-tree. Then the PCs would learn a lot of new things, but not more powerful in the battlefield. 

Or they could use a system like the one of Mutans and Masterminds. This publishe oficial sourcebooks about DC universe.

The risk of potential abuses by munchkins is very serious. The Game-Master could designs adventures of level "street vigilante" but the players want "crunch" designed for the level of "cosmic menace". 

Do you think they will use 1d6 + 1d16 dice?

Can we bet about a game-live show in Disney+ as Critical Role?

My first PC will be the son of Bobby Drake and Kitty Prydde (In my game they are a straight couple, and reborn believers after survive a vampire attacks thanks holy water and blessed weapons). 






(Yes, this was canon Punisher: Purgatory). 

Oh, oh! If Disney can designed 616 system and this work, this means they can also publish later their own Star Wars RPG. They don't need WotC or other publisher any more.


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## Charwoman Gene (Jun 4, 2021)

Delazar said:


> M.A.R.V.E.L.!
> 
> I’m sold!



_someone really wanted_ our initials to _spell_ out "_shield_."


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Forbeck confirms you can make your own characters in the game, for those who were concerned.

My players and I are all big comic book fans, but I personally find most modern superhero games way too fiddly for my tastes. (I know lots of people love that level of detail and tactics, but not for me, not at this age.) I'd love it if this is a light and fun game that is neither as abstracted as PBtA nor as "here's the book to teach you how to make your characters using the other book" detailed as M&M or Champions.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Delazar said:


> M.A.R.V.E.L.!
> 
> I’m sold!



It does read better than FASERIP, I'll grant that.


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## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

"a natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games"

I am just hoping that the above quote does not meant that it is derived from 5e or have a  D&D style class/level system.


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## Sithlord (Jun 4, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> But will it be better than Mutants and Masterminds? Else, why?



This is my superhero rpg. I can do marvel or dc or whatever with it. And I don’t have to worry about having the license pulled. As for lore and fluff for the setting I have all my comic books and all of the internet and wiki for all the setting material I need.


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## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

imagineGod said:


> But will it be better than Mutants and Masterminds? Else, why?



or better than Icons, Icons: Assembled,  or BASH: UE (all of which I prefer to M&M 3e (which is a good game, but got just a little "fiddlier" with power writeups than 2e and condensed skill a little more than I like))


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## Micah Sweet (Jun 4, 2021)

I've always been a huge fan of FASERIP, but its been a while since Marvel Heroic, so it will be interesting to see where the design leans.  Marvel Heroic was a pretty narrative system and, while not tremendously difficult to learn, followed a nontraditional design not at all similar to 5e (and therefore, not designed for newcomers to RPGs.  I'm excited to see what they come up with!


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## Von Ether (Jun 4, 2021)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> We should remember Disney has got a lot of means to promote this title.
> 
> I stay with this phrase:
> 
> ...



1d6 + 1d16 would be an average of 11?
Using the d6 as a bonus? It could work.


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## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Forbeck is a great choice for this. Brave New World was highly regarded in its time.
> 
> My biggest concern right now is whether they want to wed themselves to a Thor design that is _not_ sticking around. (Yeesh, it's so bad.)



I disagree that Forbeck is a great choice based off of Brave New World. In my gaming circles, the Brave New World setting was liked. However, how powers were handled and spreading out powers over supplements were major  turnoffs. The game languished on the shelf of my local gamestore (which was one of the major game stores in Los Angeles at the time and located just a few blocks from a California university).


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 4, 2021)

Micah Sweet said:


> I've always been a huge fan of FASERIP, but its been a while since Marvel Heroic, so it will be interesting to see where the design leans.  Marvel Heroic was a pretty narrative system and, while not tremendously difficult to learn, followed a nontraditional design not at all similar to 5e (and therefore, not designed for newcomers to RPGs.  I'm excited to see what they come up with!



Also saddled with the fact that you couldn't make your own characters ( a edict from Marvel) and that they were forced to publish big event books whether they wanted to or not. With this one so far it looks like you can make your own characters at least.


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## TheBanjoNerd (Jun 4, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Disney is still licensing out Star Wars for the RPG.



That's true, but sadly there hasn't been anything announced/released in over a year. As far as I'm aware, Disney has been silent about the Star Wars RPG license ever since Fantasy Flight gutted their RPG division. In my mind, with how popular The Mandalorian and their other Disney+ content has been, in addition to The High Republic opening up a whole new era of content, it would have been a no-brainer to produce products to tie into those new media. If Disney were planning on continuing to license out Star Wars for roleplaying games, it certainly seems like they would be announcing new publishers or putting pressure on FFG to announce something, instead of leaving money on the table. However, that's purely speculation on my part, which is born from the frustration of being a big fan of FFG's Star Wars system.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand: I'm surprised Modiphius hadn't lobbied to get Marvel into their stable of 2d20 licensed games.

*Edited for clarity


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## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> Also saddled with the fact that you couldn't make your own characters ( a edict from Marvel) and that they were forced to publish big event books whether they wanted to or not. With this one so far it looks like you can make your own characters at least.



I had issues with Marvel Heroic (mainly, the event format, unlockables, the doom pool, and a minor issue with specialties), but you could make your own characters with it . The Heroic Book and  Premium event books (as opposed to the non-premium versions) had everything needed to create characters. They just did not provide either a random method (in the book, but it was on the website) or a point buy system which some people wanted/"needed" which is different than not being able to build a character
As for the event format, I believe Cam stated that was MWP's choice, but I might be wrong.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Micah Sweet said:


> I've always been a huge fan of FASERIP, but its been a while since Marvel Heroic, so it will be interesting to see where the design leans.  Marvel Heroic was a pretty narrative system and, while not tremendously difficult to learn, followed a nontraditional design not at all similar to 5e (and therefore, not designed for newcomers to RPGs.  I'm excited to see what they come up with!




So... non-traditional design principles_ in no way_ means "not designed for newcomers".  

Non-traditional design is sometimes hard for people who have already got expectations and play patterns set by traditonal designs.  If you've played a lot of D&D, and not much else, then PbtA or Fate can seem really weird.  But, if you don't have any gaming habits, there's nothing particularly difficult about picking up non-traditional designs.


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## Morrus (Jun 4, 2021)

TheBanjoNerd said:


> Anyway, back to the topic at hand: I'm surprised Modiphius hadn't lobbied to get Marvel into their stable of 2d20 licensed games.



What makes you think they didn’t?


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Greg K said:


> They just did not provide either a random method (in the book, but it was on the website) or a point buy system which some people wanted/"needed" which is different than not being able to build a character




What I saw amounted to "talk to your GM and figure it out", which is not a _system_, it is advice.


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## imagineGod (Jun 4, 2021)

Morrus said:


> What makes you think they didn’t?



2d20 has a power cap problem. I cannot see how to create Thanos in 2d20 versus a human character like Nick Fury.


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## TwoSix (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So... non-traditional design principles_ in no way_ means "not designed for newcomers".
> 
> Non-traditional design is sometimes hard for people who have already got expectations and play patterns set by traditonal designs.  If you've played a lot of D&D, and not much else, then PbtA or Fate can seem really weird.  But, if you don't have any gaming habits, there's nothing particularly difficult about picking up non-traditional designs.



This is true, and I definitely agree.  It does sure seem like this game, specifically, is aiming for an audience that has learned 5e D&D and is only now becoming aware that there are other RPGs out there.  "A natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games on the market" sure sounds like they're trying to get the "just learned D&D" demographic.


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## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Well, it looks like this is being published by Marvel Entertainment itself.  It is hard to yank a license out from under _yourself_.
> 
> The bigger question is whether this game will have the same base flaw as Marvel Super Heroic Role Playing - centered on playing canonical characters and past comics plotlines, rather than playing your own.



With the blank character on the cover, looks like that's a "no" and character generation is assumed


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## eyeheartawk (Jun 4, 2021)

Greg K said:


> I had issues with Marvel Heroic (mainly, the event format, unlockables, the doom pool, and a minor issue with specialties), but you could make your own characters with it . The Heroic Book and  Premium event books (as opposed to the non-premium versions) had everything needed to create characters. They just did not provide either a random method (in the book, but it was on the website) or a point buy system which some people wanted/"needed" which is different than not being able to build a character
> As for the event format, I believe Cam stated that was MWP's choice, but I might be wrong.



I remember Cam saying the opposite on G+, but I could be wrong too


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## Mortus (Jun 4, 2021)

darjr said:


> Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic



Neat, it’s an acronym for MARVEL.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> "A natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games on the market" sure sounds like they're trying to get the "just learned D&D" demographic.




I see nothing about "just learned" in that statement. 

Is a "natural evolution" of 5e back towards traditional design, or out towards newer design?


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## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> What I saw amounted to "talk to your GM and figure it out", which is not a _system_, it is advice.



but you can still make a character. MHR gave everything needed to make a character- powers, sfx, limitations, specialties. What they did was, essentially, use character modelling which was also an option in the original TSR Game. As a GM, working it out with players is, essentially how I have handled character generation in TSR Marvel (Basic, Advanced), DC Heroes (1e, 2e, BOH), Champions, M&M (1e, 2e), V&V, etc. It is also how we were generating characters for MHR until we decided to stick with M&M 2e to finish an existing campaign.


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## Lidgar (Jun 4, 2021)

Ralif Redhammer said:


> I can only hope that the base mechanic somehow involves rolling a d6 and a d16.
> 
> Marvel comics are a great property for an RPG. Back in the day TSR got so many books out of just keeping up with the comics.



I hope so. Finally another use for my DCC dice!


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## Mistwell (Jun 4, 2021)

I am down for this. I am not that thrilled with a d16. Feels like a gimmick.


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## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 4, 2021)

Sounds nifty
Never played the last couple, but the cover already looks better than the recycled art of the 2003 version

I looked at the Marvel Heroic version but it was awkward. Hyper focused on existing comic stories from almost 10 years prior. And ignoring lots of the characters in the MCU. You couldn’t play Hulk, Thor, or Hawkeye out of the main book
Focusing on movie characters is a must. One or two players at a table might be keeping up with comics, but it’s unlikely all will. But if you can play in the MCU the barrier becomes easy. Players can catch up with 1-3 movies rather than nine or ten omnibuses. 
Also didn’t like lack of variable enemy difficulty. Smacking down Doctor Doom should be an advanced super team fight and not the same difficulty as fighting Whirlwind or Wrecker. 

Fear the same fate that apparently happened to the 2003 game. Where Marvel expected sales close to DnD and didn’t realize the huge gulf between the RPG market leader and every other game
If they’re expecting WizCo sales numbers but only get Free League or Paizo sale numbers they might quickly pull the plug
Almost hesitant to jump in. Don’t want to buy expecting supplements only to get half a game line


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## Grendel_Khan (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Forbeck was the designer behind _Brave New World_, a short-lived supers game from Pinnacle Entertainment. I wonder if D616 will be a mechanical descendant, or if it will really be "all new".



I just finished listening to the System Mastery episode on Brave New World. That show is obviously all about dunking, but still, the mechanics in that one....yeeeeeesh.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Von Ether said:


> 1d6 + 1d16 would be an average of 11?
> Using the d6 as a bonus? It could work.



I'm pretty sure the 616 is just a Marvel Comics multiverse joke.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Disgruntled Hobbit said:


> With the blank character on the cover, looks like that's a "no" and character generation is assumed



It's explicitly confirmed in the Polygon interview I linked.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Mortus said:


> Neat, it’s an acronym for MARVEL.



They also map to D&D's core six stats, which does suggest they want an easy on-ramp for D&D players.


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## TwoSix (Jun 4, 2021)

Mistwell said:


> I am down for this. I am not that thrilled with a d16. Feels like a gimmick.



There's no chance in hell it's actually going to use a d16.


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## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Greg K said:


> but you can still make a character.




With respect, failure to prohibit a thing is not the same as actually supporting that thing.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I see nothing about "just learned" in that statement.
> 
> Is a "natural evolution" of 5e back towards traditional design, or out towards newer design?




We’re probably overthinking it (as we all love to), but I bet this just means it’s as easy to learn as 5e but maybe with more powers. For example, while I hate AC, that sort of approach would be a lot more streamlined than a Champions-style breakdown of roll to hit, apply active defenses, armor once you’re hit, etc. I feel like their signaling a general level of crunch and complexity, in other words. 

Aaaaaaand now I’ve written a totally useless comment speculating about a game that I won’t ever buy or play. Well done, Marvel, joke’s on me.


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## Espadadelaaurora (Jun 4, 2021)

That will be the fifth encarnation of the game, a bit tired of yet another system change, but well if Marvel is behind the game there's no risk of dropping the license.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> We’re probably overthinking it (as we all love to), but I bet this just means it’s as easy to learn as 5e but maybe with more powers. For example, while I hate AC, that sort of approach would be a lot more streamlined than a Champions-style breakdown of roll to hit, apply active defenses, armor once you’re hit, etc. I feel like their signaling a general level of crunch and complexity, in other words.



Villains & Vigilantes, one of the very first superhero RPGs, was extremely similar to BD&D in its approach. It wasn't a perfect game, by any means -- game balance? what's that? -- but it's definitely possible to do it. Incorporating some more modern game design -- advantage/disadvantage, a simplified power list that focuses on reskinning abilities instead of coming up with 1,000 different ones to keep track of -- and you could definitely make it work. After all, Mutants & Masterminds runs on the 3E OGL under the hood (and has obviously built a _lot_ on top of that chassis).


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## payn (Jun 4, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> There's no chanice in hell it's actually going to use a d16.



Darn, get more use outta me DCC dice.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

payn said:


> Darn, get more use outta me DCC dice.



Goodman didn't worry about DCC being accessible to RPG newbies (although the game is a pretty simple one to grasp). That's part of the mandate for this one. I wouldn't expect them to use any dice you can't find in a Barnes & Noble or Target, both of which now stock a decent selection of Chessex dice in my town.


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## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> With respect, failure to prohibit a thing is not the same as actually supporting that thing.



But Cam has stated multiple times (in response to someone complaining that the game does not have character creation) that the game has character creation-  the method is character modelling and everything need is there. It is a completely valid method even if some people are used to/ want random generation or point buy.


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## Maxperson (Jun 4, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Earth-616 is the designation within the Marvel Multiverse for the classic comic book continuity (as opposed to Earth-199999 for the MCU, or Earth-1218 for the real world). Each possible Earth history has a "coordinate," so to speak.



Yep, but that still doesn't explain what a D616 is.


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## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

Espadadelaaurora said:


> That will be the fifth encarnation of the game, a bit tired of yet another system change, but well if Marvel is behind the game there's no risk of dropping the license.



Not true. They published the Marvel Universe Roleplay Game which they had designed by Q.E.D.  They published the Avengers/ Hulk and X-Men books and dropped it before publishing the Spider-Man and Wolverine books


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Greg K said:


> But Cam has stated multiple times (in response to someone complaining that the game does not have character creation) that the game has character creation-  the method is character modelling and everything need is there. It is a completely valid method even if some people are used to/ want random generation or point buy.



The fact that he has to explain it multiple times suggests that many users aren't seeing that as a user-friend character generation method.


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## Maxperson (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> But they _already have_ the lunchbox, and pretty much every other kind of merchandise you can name. * I've got a Spider-Man spatula, for cripes' sake!  *Once you have saturate the market with lunch boxes, you start looking for new opportuinities, even if they are marginal.



LOL Seriously?!  Do you have a pic?  That's awesome.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Yep, but that still doesn't explain what a D616 is.



Almost certainly a joke.


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## TwoSix (Jun 4, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> Yep, but that still doesn't explain what a D616 is.



They're doing a portmanteau of "d20" and "616" (the number for the Marvel's comic book continuity).  They're just trying to be cute for marketing; they aren't going to invent some brand-new dice convention.


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## Maxperson (Jun 4, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Almost certainly a joke.



Maybe they use 16 d6.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 4, 2021)

We should remember the 616 system could be used later in the adaptation of videogames. But if these allow player vs players I wonder how to find a power balance in the fights or guns vs katanas.

I don't imagine a superhero RPG with classes as fighter, spellcaster or stealth.

Will they allow a open licence to can be used by 3PPs? I feel curiosity about superheroes from the golden age what now they are public domain.

I imagine a reward system closer to storytelling sytem than classic d20 system of killing monsters. What about characters with total regeneration? For example Wolwerine or Deadpool. Or the characters to rich, not only Tony Stark, but also the Fantastic Four or Mark Spector.

How to avoid the overpowered characters?

We have to remember it is not only to be sold to RPG players, but also for marvel fandom who wants to read all the lore and find ideas to write their own amateur/fanart stories.


----------



## Blue (Jun 4, 2021)

Delazar said:


> M.A.R.V.E.L.!
> 
> I’m sold!



More inviting acronym then FASERIP?


----------



## Maxperson (Jun 4, 2021)

Blue said:


> More inviting acronym then FASERIP?



Yes, but I really miss the old Marvel game.  I have a lot of good memories of FASERIP.


----------



## monsmord (Jun 4, 2021)

Blue said:


> More inviting acronym then FASERIP?




Is that even possible?

I'm intrigued. Probably won't buy it or play it, mostly for lack of opportunity to find a suitable group. Still, looking forward to a review.


----------



## Morrus (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Well, it looks like this is being published by Marvel Entertainment itself.  It is hard to yank a license out from under _yourself_.
> 
> The bigger question is whether this game will have the same base flaw as Marvel Super Heroic Role Playing - centered on playing canonical characters and past comics plotlines, rather than playing your own.



Announcement says both.


----------



## payn (Jun 4, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> Goodman didn't worry about DCC being accessible to RPG newbies (although the game is a pretty simple one to grasp). That's part of the mandate for this one. I wouldn't expect them to use any dice you can't find in a Barnes & Noble or Target, both of which now stock a decent selection of Chessex dice in my town.



Dont underestimate "Marvel" brand D16 packs. Put Hulk and whoever on the package and sell em for 15 bucks a crack anywhere.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 4, 2021)

payn said:


> Dont underestimate "Marvel" brand D16 packs. Put Hulk and whoever on the package and sell em for 15 bucks a crack anywhere.



They could require using 616 d6s, and then sell massive bricks of branded dice sets, and some number of people would eat it up. MCU fandom is wild.


----------



## Greg K (Jun 4, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The fact that he has to explain it multiple times suggests that many users aren't seeing that as a user-friend character generation method.



There was a whole section on creating new Datafiles. The section mentions creating datafiles for unpublished Marvel heroes, but does not mention non-Marvel heroes. However, creating a datafile for a character published by Marvel, some other publisher, or one's own unique hero is the same process.The vast majority of people in the discussion threads on RPGNet had no problem with it. It was only a handful (maybe, slightly more) of people that were upset that random or point buy generation was not included. As to whether or not it was a user-friendly method is a separate issue (personally, I found it user-friendly except Milestones which are awkward for how my games go).


----------



## Wolfram stout (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> It does read better than FASERIP, I'll grant that.



Heretic!  FASERIP is the greatest acronym in all of history.  Ok, I caught myself misspelling face for years, but still.

In all seriousness, This sounds awesome, and if it has true character creation even more so.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Maxperson said:


> LOL Seriously?!  Do you have a pic?  That's awesome.




Mine is down in my kitchen, so it was easier to get a pic off the internet.  Williams Sonoma used to carry them, so I got it as an X-mas gift one year.  It looks kinda funny with a fried egg on his face, but actually functions pretty darned well.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Announcement says both.




Marketing announcements are where weasel-words go to breed.  And remember how 5e was supposed to be "modular"? How well did that turn out?

 So, while I hope (and mostly expect) them to have learned that lesson, I'll remain skeptical for a while.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Wolfram stout said:


> Heretic!  FASERIP is the greatest acronym in all of history.




It was a heck of a lot of fun to play, at least.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Greg K said:


> But Cam has stated multiple times (in response to someone complaining that the game does not have character creation) that the game has character creation-  the method is character modelling and everything need is there. It is a completely valid method even if some people are used to/ want random generation or point buy.




I don't specifically need random, or point buy.
I do specifically want a system that implements some balance in the game, and doesn't shift that burden entirely on the GM's shoulders making them into the villain who has to personally implement all limits.  Let a system do some of that work, please.

Also, modeling only works if you start out with a complete image of what you want in your head.  It fails to provide guidance or inspiration to the player.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 4, 2021)

payn said:


> Dont underestimate "Marvel" brand D16 packs. Put Hulk and whoever on the package and sell em for 15 bucks a crack anywhere.



They could, but Marvel Entertainment has been exceptionally smart about making customer-friendly choices.

Soaking potential customers like this seems like a bad idea, when they could just as easily rely on conventional d6s or normal polyhedral sets -- to make it easier to get into the game -- but then sell branded dice based on every possible Marvel character and team after that. Best of both worlds.


----------



## RangerWickett (Jun 4, 2021)

Hm, if I wanted to take "D616" seriously, I'd do it this way:

"You roll *1d6*. That's how good you are at your task. Then you choose *1 *of your special abilities, which will have a threshold. Roll a second *1d6*, and if the number is high enough, you can pull off your special ability. Thus it's possible to succeed at an attack but fail to hurl someone, or to fail at an attack but succeed in setting up an ally on their turn."

Something like that.


----------



## Lidgar (Jun 4, 2021)

D616 is a reference to the damage Thanos does when he snaps his fingers.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 4, 2021)

D616 could be something as simple as the game system using 2d6 and a d10: d6 d10 d6 or 616.

edited for typos


----------



## Ralif Redhammer (Jun 4, 2021)

I also might point out that the latest Star Wars RPG uses a whole series of dice specifically designed for that game and that game only.



payn said:


> Dont underestimate "Marvel" brand D16 packs. Put Hulk and whoever on the package and sell em for 15 bucks a crack anywhere.




I have very fond memories of the FASERIP system. We all played some games that were with original characters (though honestly, we were kids and most of them were just different versions of existing superheroes with the serial numbers filed off) and other sessions matching up official characters ("what would happen if The Punisher and Jubilee had to work together?").


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 4, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The fact that he has to explain it multiple times suggests that many users aren't seeing that as a user-friend character generation method.



That someone else at MWP caved and added a random gen subsystem as an add-on also shows that Cam's view wasn't shared by all of MWP.


TwoSix said:


> They're doing a portmanteau of "d20" and "616" (the number for the Marvel's comic book continuity).  They're just trying to be cute for marketing; they aren't going to invent some brand-new dice convention.



It's highly likely that customized dice are a thing to expect. Why? Disney has seen the numbers on FFG's Star Wars. For a group that buys 1 core and 0-6 supplements, they're likely to sell 6-10 sets of dice, with a loss of a chunk of sales due to grog reactions. A d6+d16 wouldbe the same TN ranges as d20. and would justify those customized dice, as d16's have been available for 30 years commercially, and the patent is expired. It would be a great way to get even grogs to buy new dice, and if they keep them numerical, avoiding the "must buy our dice" of FFG's approach.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 4, 2021)

Nerdist.com said:
			
		

> Fans who pick up the Playtest Rulebook will also have a chance “to help shape the game” by offering feedback on rules before its full release in 2023. (How exactly will be announced later.)




As to D616 we’ve already got the first 6 in the MARVEL stats so I’m guessing its a D6 system keyed off those Stats, the enigma is how they fit in the 1 or 10


----------



## Micah Sweet (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So... non-traditional design principles_ in no way_ means "not designed for newcomers".
> 
> Non-traditional design is sometimes hard for people who have already got expectations and play patterns set by traditonal designs.  If you've played a lot of D&D, and not much else, then PbtA or Fate can seem really weird.  But, if you don't have any gaming habits, there's nothing particularly difficult about picking up non-traditional designs.



Good point.  I guess my bias came into play there.  I'm hoping for something closer to 5e than Fate.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 4, 2021)

Micah Sweet said:


> Good point.  I guess my bias came into play there.  I'm hoping for something closer to 5e than Fate.




not for a super heroes game, I dont think DnD presumptions work for Supers especially for Marvel where you have Hawkeye and Black Widow in the same team as Hulk and Spiderman


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 4, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> It's also interesting to see they're going the PF2 route of selling a physical playtest book.




If you click the link and go to the official marvel.com article, down at the bottom is says "on sale Spring 2022" And the very first line at the top says "available starting Spring 2022 wherever graphic novels and books are sold."

So yeah, something will be charged for it. How much we will not know for a while. But considering what core books cost, I would expect around $20.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Micah Sweet said:


> Good point.  I guess my bias came into play there.  I'm hoping for something closer to 5e than Fate.




Understandable.

I think traditional design works well when you want characters to be able to do very specific things, and it starts to fall apart when characters step outside the standard menu options.  But superhero powers are often about stepping outside of the standard menu.  Thus, I think something with a bit more narrative than precise tactical approaches are in order.


----------



## Micah Sweet (Jun 4, 2021)

Tonguez said:


> not for a super heroes game, I dont think DnD presumptions work for Supers especially for Marvel where you have Hawkeye and Black Widow in the same team as Hulk and Spiderman



As long as they don't go in an excessively narrative direction trying to make it work, I'll be happy.  That was my issue with Marvel Heroic.


----------



## Count_Zero (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Well, it looks like this is being published by Marvel Entertainment itself. It is hard to yank a license out from under _yourself_.



True - but Marvel did do that when they canceled their previous attempt at making an internally published tabletop RPG - Marvel Diceless - with several sourcebooks ready to go - because it wasn't selling as well as the recently released D&D 3rd Edition.


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 4, 2021)

Micah Sweet said:


> As long as they don't go in an excessively narrative direction trying to make it work, I'll be happy.  That was my issue with Marvel Heroic.



Meanwhile, the idea of using a D&D derivative mechanic is not a selling point for me.
Plus, the narrative elements are what made it the best playing of the Marvel Games, IMO, shoving FASRIP AMSH to second place.
I'd love it, tho', if they used 1d6+1d16 on a color result table similar to that in AMSH.



Count_Zero said:


> True - but Marvel did do that when they canceled their previous attempt at making an internally published tabletop RPG - Marvel Diceless - with several sourcebooks ready to go - because it wasn't selling as well as the recently released D&D 3rd Edition.




If they expected D&D like sales, they were utterly delusional. If they expected to make a game that paid for itself, they should  have done better market research.

Given that the preponderance of reviews were negative... there were some glowing ones, but largely, most of the fan response was "give us FASERIP, Not this [scatological expletive]!" it's probably just that it failed to gain a significant audience, failed to gain broad critical success, and was eating illustrator time...


----------



## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Count_Zero said:


> True - but Marvel did do that when they canceled their previous attempt at making an internally published tabletop RPG - Marvel Diceless - with several sourcebooks ready to go - because it wasn't selling as well as the recently released D&D 3rd Edition.




Sure.  But that was nearly 20 years ago.  

Marvel Entertainment, as an organization, is an entirely different beast today.  I am not sure why you would expect the same behavior.


----------



## payn (Jun 4, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> They could, but Marvel Entertainment has been exceptionally smart about making customer-friendly choices.
> 
> Soaking potential customers like this seems like a bad idea, when they could just as easily rely on conventional d6s or normal polyhedral sets -- to make it easier to get into the game -- but then sell branded dice based on every possible Marvel character and team after that. Best of both worlds.



Actually, they will probably just create an app for kids phones.


----------



## Count_Zero (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Sure. But that was nearly 20 years ago.
> 
> Marvel Entertainment, as an organization, is an entirely different beast today. I am not sure why you would expect the same behavior.



The point is, the last two Marvel tabletop RPGs, one published in house, the other published by a third party, were cancelled by Marvel internal management very abruptly.



aramis erak said:


> If they expected D&D like sales, they were utterly delusional. If they expected to make a game that paid for itself, they should have done better market research.




Now, frankly, with the diceless game, while the official reason is it wasn't selling as well as D&D, the game's cancellation happened at the same time as the ouster of Bill Jemas as publisher of Marvel, so there was suspicion at the time that was the real reason, but there's never been any real confirmation. I'm not sure if there was a similar change in power at Marvel when MWP lost the license.

Can't speak for whether it was eating illustrator time - most of the art in the game books was existing art from Marvel comics at the time, particularly the Ultimates line.


----------



## J.Quondam (Jun 4, 2021)

(Aside: Is there a "standard" d16? I've seen d16 in the forms of bi-pyramidal, barrel, and truncated-spherical dice. Is one of those the "standard" or is there some other configuration I'm not aware of?)


----------



## Umbran (Jun 4, 2021)

Count_Zero said:


> The point is, the last two Marvel tabletop RPGs, one published in house, the other published by a third party, were cancelled by Marvel internal management very abruptly.




I believe that's incorrect.  The diceless game (Marvel Universe RPG, 2003) was cancelled abruptly by Marvel.  The Cam Banks/Margaret Weis Productions game (Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, 2012) was cancelled because MWP found that while the product did well, it wasn't well enough to support the high license fee.  Their statement was:

"_...And in Marvel news… the economics of licensing a tie-in product is always something we have to weigh carefully. We brokered an admittedly ambitious license with Marvel. Our first event, CIVIL WAR, was successful and well received, but it didn't garner the level of sales necessary to sustain the rest of the line. _"

I have seen no statements that this cancellation was initiated by Marvel.


----------



## Dungeonosophy (Jun 4, 2021)

Earth-616
					

The reality of Earth-616 has gone through eight different incarnations, all triggered by different instances of multiversal renewal, which constitutes in the destruction and re-creation of everything there is. Little is known of most of Earth-616's incarnations. The fifth is said to have been a...




					marvel.fandom.com


----------



## Count_Zero (Jun 4, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I believe that's incorrect.  The diceless game (Marvel Universe RPG, 2003) was cancelled abruptly by Marvel.  The Cam Banks/Margaret Weis Productions game (Marvel Heroic Roleplaying, 2012) was cancelled because MWP found that while the product did well, it wasn't well enough to support the high license fee.  Their statement was:
> 
> "_...And in Marvel news… the economics of licensing a tie-in product is always something we have to weigh carefully. We brokered an admittedly ambitious license with Marvel. Our first event, CIVIL WAR, was successful and well received, but it didn't garner the level of sales necessary to sustain the rest of the line. _"
> 
> I have seen no statements that this cancellation was initiated by Marvel.



But they also had books announced and ready to print - IIRC I remember people talking about books they had written, had submitted for publication, and had been paid for (particularly the Annihilation Event Book), but were not published.


----------



## Yaarel (Jun 4, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Quote from the article: "Use Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic to win the day, and discover your true abilities as you face impossible odds!"
> 
> Sounds pretty D&Dish based on that; renamed 6 stats and "discover your true abilities" sure sounds like level progression.




Might ≈ Strength
Agility ≈ Dexterity
Resilience ≈ Constitution
Vigilance ≈ Wisdom (Perception)
Ego ≈ Charisma (Sense of Self)
Logic ≈ Intelligence


----------



## TwoSix (Jun 4, 2021)

Yaarel said:


> Might ≈ Strength
> Agility ≈ Dexterity
> Resilience ≈ Constitution
> Vigilance ≈ Wisdom (Perception)
> ...



Yep, it's straight up renamed D&D stats.


----------



## Parmandur (Jun 4, 2021)

Count_Zero said:


> But they also had books announced and ready to print - IIRC I remember people talking about books they had written, had submitted for publication, and had been paid for (particularly the Annihilation Event Book), but were not published.



But printing costs money, and if MWP didn't feel they could recoup the costs of printing with the license fees...not worth continuing, even if they had some product ready to go.


----------



## AOieiosle (Jun 5, 2021)

It's wild no one's mad that a Disney company is charging to playtest a game.


----------



## Yaarel (Jun 5, 2021)

Yaarel said:


> Might ≈ Strength
> Agility ≈ Dexterity
> Resilience ≈ Constitution
> Vigilance ≈ Wisdom (Perception)
> ...




I hope they resolved some of the thorny issues of the D&D abilities tradition.

Hopefully, Agility (Dexterity) is the go-to for all things gymnastic: speed, running, jumping, tumbling, climbing, falling, etctera.

Vigilance (Wisdom) removes willpower and probably gives it to Charisma (Ego) − great!

I am skeptical about the mechanical utility during gameplay, if reducing Intelligence to "logic". I probably would have given "logic" to Vigilance (for piecing clues together).


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 5, 2021)

Yaarel said:


> I am skeptical about the mechanical utility during gameplay, if reducing Intelligence to "logic".



They were working on creating a backronym. I wouldn't take the new names _too_ seriously.


----------



## Yaarel (Jun 5, 2021)

Yaarel said:


> Might ≈ Strength
> Agility ≈ Dexterity
> Resilience ≈ Constitution
> Vigilance ≈ Wisdom (Perception)
> ...



Heh.

I just noticed that the acronym spells M.A.R.V.E.L.


----------



## Parmandur (Jun 5, 2021)

Slow_Travel said:


> It's wild no one's mad that a Disney company is charging to playtest a game.



$20 is pretty cheap, and there will probably be some sweet art included. Paizo charged more, for the printed version of their playtest rules.


----------



## TrippyHippy (Jun 5, 2021)

Yaarel said:


> Might ≈ Strength
> Agility ≈ Dexterity
> Resilience ≈ Constitution
> Vigilance ≈ Wisdom (Perception)
> ...



Wouldn’t Vision have fitted better than Vigilance?


----------



## Yaarel (Jun 5, 2021)

TrippyHippy said:


> Wouldn’t Vision have fitted better than Vigilance?



Vigilance is bigger than vision. Vigilance is listening, paying attention, being conscious, piecing together clues, maybe even intuition.


----------



## Tonguez (Jun 5, 2021)

M


TwoSix said:


> Yep, it's straight up renamed D&D stats.



a whole lot of games use the basic 6 though, even Fate Accelerated approaches can be directly mapped to the D&D Stats (well if you accept Con = Careful anyway). D20 Moderns classes also used a direct Stat=‘Class/archetype’ mechanic


----------



## Greg K (Jun 5, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I don't specifically need random, or point buy.
> I do specifically want a system that implements some balance in the game, and doesn't shift that burden entirely on the GM's shoulders making them into the villain who has to personally implement all limits.  Let a system do some of that work, please.
> 
> Also, modeling only works if you start out with a complete image of what you want in your head.  It fails to provide guidance or inspiration to the player.



I acknowledged to another poster that it might not have been user-friendly for some people. However, that is not the same as not having character creation. As for balance,I had enough people with actual play experiene tell me that the system balances characters in play and works for having Hawkeye and Black Widow on a team with Thor, Iron Man and the Hulk. Similarly, I was told that a street level character could hold their own in a team-up with someone with all d12 powers in power set.


----------



## THEMNGMNT (Jun 5, 2021)

I'm just about to finish my first mini-campaign of Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. It's fantastic. I'm a bit shocked at the criticism of it in this thread.

On rpg.net, Cam Banks noted that M.A.R.V.E.L. is just ASERIP without Fighting.

Hoping that this is a cool game!


----------



## Von Ether (Jun 5, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> A d6+d16 wouldbe the same TN ranges as d20.



But two dice would make a bell curve, a very flat one between the results of 7 to 17.  Bell curves and leveled advancement is ... interesting.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 5, 2021)

Slow_Travel said:


> It's wild no one's mad that a Disney company is charging to playtest a game.




Paizo charged to playtest Pathfinder, one or both editions, I don't remember for sure. And WotC charged $20 to playtest Eberron. We would have never gotten the hardcover for Eberron if enough people had not bought and tried the $20 PDF.


----------



## darjr (Jun 5, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Paizo charged to playtest Pathfinder, one or both editions, I don't remember for sure. And WotC charged $20 to playtest Eberron. We would have never gotten the hardcover for Eberron if enough people had not bought and tried the $20 PDF.



Eh... uh...

While I don’t have a big issue with paying for that marvel play test, I don’t, the Eberron book was more of a test product and less an alpha or beta playtest.

but point taken


----------



## Disgruntled Hobbit (Jun 5, 2021)

Greg K said:


> I acknoweldged to another poster that it might not have been user-friendly for some people. However, that is not the same as not having character creation. As for balance,I had enough people with actual play experiene tell me that the system balances characters in play and works for having Hawkeye and Black Widow on a team with Thor, Iron Man and the Hulk. Similarly, I was told that a street level character could hold their own in a team-up with someone with all d12 powers in power set.



By "balance" there I think he meant maintaining that balance and not letting someone design a broken character
It moved maintaining balancing onto the GM who had to say "no, you can't have a power that does X" and made them the bad guy
The book literally says:


----------



## Umbran (Jun 5, 2021)

Count_Zero said:


> But they also had books announced and ready to print - IIRC I remember people talking about books they had written, had submitted for publication, and had been paid for (particularly the Annihilation Event Book), but were not published.




Whether they were ready to print does not mean it was Marvel's action.  Licenses typically have yearly/periodic fees, due on some date.  If MWP didn't want to pay the fee, their license would end, and they'd not have rights to print further materials past some date, ready or not.

It sounds like a choice in which they avoided the sunk cost fallacy - what they had already paid to creators does not mean they'd earn money back from continuing forward.


----------



## Umbran (Jun 5, 2021)

Greg K said:


> Similarly, I was told that a street level character could hold their own in a team-up with someone with all d12 powers in power set.




While I can speak for myself, Disgruntled Hobbit got it correct.

I am well aware of how Cortex (the base system in question) generally plays.  While someone might "hold their own" alongside a nominally more powerful character, it still leads to spotlight management issues - few players want to be playing second fiddle all the time.

Now, when the game really was primarily presented to play pre-generated canonical characters in published scenarios of storylines already known to the players, I can accept that this isn't a major flaw.  IIRC, they didn't even advise that the same person plays the same character scenario after scenario.  If Iron Man is in the game, you play him in one adventure, but in another, someone else in your group might play him.  Having no character ownership is one way to handle power disparity.

But, I suspect "build and play your own" is the approach players would really prefer, and then the modeling approach placing all balance responsibility on the GM is simply not great design.  It puts burden on the GM they do not want, and leaves people who don't have a fully-formed concept to model without guidance.

The game _played_ well.  But the character generation advice really wasn't up to snuff, even by the standards of the day, and I'm pretty sure it would fly even less well now.   I am happy if it worked for you, but I suspect this point, and the laser-like focus on publishing previous comics events as the primary adventure offerings, hobbled the success of the game.

And while I would not expect MWP or Mr. Banks to ever say otherwise, it really does sound like a decision to drive a business model that turned out to not work very well.


----------



## Greg K (Jun 5, 2021)

Umbran said:


> The game _played_ well.  But the character generation advice really wasn't up to snuff, even by the standards of the day, and I'm pretty sure it would fly even less well now.   I am happy if it worked for you, but I suspect this point, and the laser-like focus on publishing previous comics events as the primary adventure offerings, hobbled the success of the game.
> 
> And while I would not expect MWP or Mr. Banks to ever say otherwise, it really does sound like a decision to drive a business model that turned out to not work very well.



Ultmately, we decided not to play it and continue our campaign using M&M 2e without trying MHR. The issue for us was not character creation of new characters. Once I understood how certain powers from other games were handled by specific SFX,  I converted several heroes from the M&M homebrew campaign I was running. The issue was the Event based format (I strongly dislike Marvel events), unlockables, and the implemenation of milestones.

These days, Icons: Assemble and BASH:UE are the first two systems I would choose for supers (well, BASH: UE will be of the two once they finish the last two Awesome Power supplements). However, I still want to give MHR a try (thanks to a website that discussed using the game for non-Event based games) and it the first system to which I would turn for a certain style of game/campaign depending upon the players.


----------



## JEB (Jun 5, 2021)

Slow_Travel said:


> It's wild no one's mad that a Disney company is charging to playtest a game.



I'm not mad about it, but I also don't have any intention of paying a company to help playtest their game, then paying a second time for the final product. I'll certainly keep tabs on the development and am looking forward to the final product, though...

And I wouldn't be surprised, between the thinly veiled D&D six stats, the references to "a natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games on the market", and the unparalleled current popularity of D&D 5E, if this is very D&D-esque in structure (maybe even including class archetypes). Though personally I'm hoping for something more like Mutants & Masterminds (basically classless D&D 3E).


----------



## MGibster (Jun 5, 2021)

I was thinking about TSR's Marvel RPG the other day.  When I started playing it in the 80s, most of the Marvel titles the game was based on were less than 25 years old.  The Fantastic Four came out in 1961 and the Amazing Spider-Man, The Avengers, and The Uncanny X-Men all made their publishing debut in 1963.   More time has passed between the creation of TSR's marvel and today than between the creation of The Fantastic Four and TSR's Marvel.  There's an additional 34 years of comic book material since Marvel Super Heroes went out of publication in the around 1987 or so.  Man I feel old.  

Marvel Super Heroes is still one of my favorite super hero RPGs of all time.  It wasn't perfect, but I have yet to find another super hero system that brought me as much joy.  I still remember the first time I played it.

Me:  I've got a Remarkable Fighting.  Is that any good?
Friend:  No, it's Remarkable.


----------



## Espadadelaaurora (Jun 5, 2021)

Greg K said:


> Not true. They published the Marvel Universe Roleplay Game which they had designed by Q.E.D.  They published the Avengers/ Hulk and X-Men books and dropped it before publishing the Spider-Man and Wolverine books



Missed that edition


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 5, 2021)

J.Quondam said:


> (Aside: Is there a "standard" d16? I've seen d16 in the forms of bi-pyramidal, barrel, and truncated-spherical dice. Is one of those the "standard" or is there some other configuration I'm not aware of?)



Octagonal dipyramid, opposing faces add to 17. what the order is around the octagon is variable, since each I've seen has a copyright indicator.
Gamescience had a different pattern than the other one I've seen, but I've not seen any d16 in any other shapes.


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 5, 2021)

Espadadelaaurora said:


> Missed that edition



you really didn't miss much...
The one time I tried to use it, my self and the roommate, both long-time RPGers, found MU almost unplayable.

I'm always interested to see what the current marvel game is going to be like... but given the references implying D&D 5E similarity, I'm not hedging on the side of actually playing it. Not when Sentinel Comics does what I want very well, MHRP does it rather well, and I've got AMSH, too, which still is a very good game by modern standards, just not one I want to use for _Marvel_ after playing MHRP.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 5, 2021)

The dices aid 16 sides are possible, and 1d14, 1d18... I would like to can buy some ones to use some homebred rule.





If Marvel publishes their own RPG, who will translate this to other languanges?

Will it be easy to be adapted into d20, or any thing like Mutants & Masterminds? I am talking among other things about the changelling rating or XP reward value. How to allow ninja vs cowboys fights, how to find the right power balance between martial artists and one-man-army?

Will the newly created PCs can break walls and throw cars from the first session? Let's remember the official marvel videogames with several playable characters. I played Champions Online time ago, and my PC could throw cars like a stone by a child.


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## Dragonsbane (Jun 5, 2021)

The only setting I am more sick of than Marvel is Forgotten Realms. Think I will pass.


----------



## Shades of Eternity (Jun 5, 2021)

I'm getting a serious case of Deja Vue.

didn't we Fasrip this before, then later in the Saga, we Weised it through the Universe?


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Jun 5, 2021)

Slow_Travel said:


> It's wild no one's mad that a Disney company is charging to playtest a game.



I am! There’s already a high probability this will suck, based on the inherent challenge of creating a supers game that includes lots of different power levels in the same setting, and the fact that, nostalgia aside, past Marvel RPGs have been less than stellar. But this really seems gross to me. This isn’t an indie game. If you have the backing of the biggest entertainment company in the world, just do the damn development yourself.


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## AOieiosle (Jun 5, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I am! There’s already a high probability this will suck, based on the inherent challenge of creating a supers game that includes lots of different power levels in the same setting, and the fact that, nostalgia aside, past Marvel RPGs have been less than stellar. But this really seems gross to me. This isn’t an indie game. If you have the backing of the biggest entertainment company in the world, just do the damn development yourself.



Yeah I also think it's a stretch for people to put Paizo in the same category as a company that spends 10 to 25 million an episode on their shows and owns literally hundreds of companies.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 5, 2021)

Economy is not only producer goods, services and products, but the prestige for a good woork and trust by clients and partners. Disney is very rich, but some action-live productions have failed or been a total flop. Amazon Games wants to realse a new videogame, The New World. Even big fishes in the videogame industry have suffered serious flops or failures. I mean the money is not enough if you don't hire the right staff for the best results.

If 616s is a system without class levels we shouldn't worry too much, but if they want to publish a retroclon of d20 system with superheroes and high-tech, then they are getting into troubles. Not even WotC, the creator of the d20 system dares yet to something like this. 

If they want to releases (more) CRPGs with this system they will notice gameplay will demand all PCs start with same power level. Can you understand? Daredevil could defeat Iron Fist, Electra could destroy Ultron's drones, Blade the vampire hunter facing hordes of AIM tropers or Kate Bishop could kick-ass Superskrull because the gameplay asks that.


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## Grendel_Khan (Jun 5, 2021)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> If they want to releases (more) CRPGs with this system they will notice gameplay will demand all PCs start with same power level. Can you understand? Daredevil could defeat Iron Fist, Electra could destroy Ultron's drones, Blade the vampire hunter facing hordes of AIM tropers or Kate Bishop could kick-ass Superskrull because the gameplay asks that.




I think this is a really important point, and one that a lot of RPG and even MCU fans just can't wrap their heads around--cape comics aren't about realism, so stop complaining about Black Widow and Hawkeye being in the Avengers, or arguing about whether Batman can beat Superman in a fight. Batman can, if that's what the story is, and Black Widow can kill alien soldiers with her dual handguns because these narratives are about clashes of will, not the nuances of pistol-caliber ballistics. 

Obviously porting that sort of approach to an RPG is tough, but as much as I loved Champions back in the day, I don't think quantifying all of this stuff down, and therefore making some characters utterly helpless when not beating up a mugger, is doing the cape comic genre justice. Black Widow can't just headshot Doom with a Glock, but she could possibly sweep kick him off-balance, or keep him busy with that zappy business she does. Likewise, how boring it would be if everyone was just sort of failing to do anything to Doom and then Thor can knock him out with one hit, because he's Thor? Ideally you'd want teamwork to be a real factor, and even if Thor lands the big hit, maybe he lands it because others have neutralized Doom's defenses.

(And if anyone talks about how Doom can't go down with one shot from Mjolnir, remember, Doom isn't real, Thor isn't real, none of this is actually quantified or simulated by Marvel, things just happen for story reasons)

Pulling this sort of thing off mechanically is really tough, and while there are some cool supers games, I haven't seen a system that's made it feasible and satisfying to have a Daredevil-level PC and an Iron Man-level PC on the same team. Personally, I don't really love cape comics as a gaming genre, and would rather do stuff that puts some sort of spin on supers. But if you're going to do a bona fide Marvel RPG, I think the system should do the work of making mixed-power-level teams feasible, since that's the case with basically all of the teams in the comics. I don't see that happening without leaning more toward narrative RPG mechanics than trad/F20 stuff, but what do I know?


----------



## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 5, 2021)

Now I am thinking about if the xenomorphs(aliens) and the yautjas(predators) are in the marvel multiverse, that should mean special rules for creation of ordinary peoples for survival horror games, or stories as X-Files. 

This part is interesting:









						Audio EXP: #99 - The new Marvel TTRPG and its easter eggs
					

An RPG news-centric podcast given the announcement of Marvel's new RPG, but there's movie news too, geeky virtual reality software for your webcam and a host of free downloads.




					www.geeknative.com
				




It’ll probably be called “Marvel *Multiverse* Role-Play Game”. I say probably because the full title of what’s actually been announced is “Marvel Multiverse Role-Play Game Playtest Rulebook.

The game is being written by Matt Forbeck. He wrote Shotguns and Sorcery, a series of novels then turned into a Cypher System RPG by Robert Schwalb. That’s a game due more love.

Forbeck, of course, has written RPGs of his own! Including Mutant Chronicles and supporting Deadlands and Tales from the Loop.

Let’s look for easter eggs or, at the very least, interesting quirks in the text and decisions made around this newly announced Marvel RPG.

First up, I grinned when Marvel described the game as an evolution of “the most popular tabletop role-playing games”. By the time you’re at “most popular” you’re thinking of D&D, in part because that’s correct, but in part, because WotC insists publishers use phrases like that to describe the ruleset rather than use “Dungeons & Dragons”.

I get that they have to protect their brand, but I dislike the arrogance. I also don’t like the use of 5e as there are other games with fifth editions. The World of Darkness, for example.

Pick a better code for D&D, Hasbro, or savvy companies like Marvel can use it against you.

That’s one easter egg. Wondering why they don’t call it the “Marvel system”, they’ve gone with D616 instead.

That’s a nod to Earth-616. In the multiverse, 616 is the universe variant that most Marvel Comics are set. There’s even a documentary that explores the cultural impact of comics called Marvel 616.

In Thor: The Dark World, the movie, Dr Selvig has the phrase 616 Universe scribbled on his chalkboard map of the Nine Realms, and there’s plenty of others; for example, in the last Avengers, Scott Lang comes out of a storage locker labelled 616, there’s a mention of it in season 2 of Iron Fist, when police are describing suspects, and perhaps most directly Mysterio in Spider-Man: Far From Home calls this realm Earth-616.

And it’s not an easter egg, it’s in plain sight, but the game isn’t Marvel Role-Play Game; it’s the Marvel Multiverse Role-Play Game. The company is choosing to highlight the existence of the multiverse in the very name of the product.

That’s a good sales idea. Imagine all the spin-offs you empower by doing that from the outset.

Marvel has had RPGs before. They were last active in 2013 when they departed Margaret Weis Productions and took the Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. That caused the RPG to surge to the top of DriveThruRPG’s sales chart for a while as fans rushed to buy it while they still could.

Speaking of DriveThruRPG, I think the Marvel RPG is important because of what it might do to retail.

Marvel points people at comic book stores as a place to buy the playtest. I imagine Marvel already pitch their products to game stores. This will now ramp up.

As it looks like Fandom’s Cortex is not involved in the Marvel RPG, which digital markets do we expect to see the game on? Comixology? Itch? DriveThruRPG? Will Marvel make their own?

Which virtual tabletop, if any, will get the license. Will Marvel have an Open Gaming License?


----------



## Aaron L (Jun 5, 2021)

I'll give this a look to see if it's any good, but I still like the old '80s TSR _FASERIP _*Marvel Superheroes *RPG, with its adjectival ability score rankings (your PC could have an Amazing rank Fighting score and a Monstrous rank Endurance, for example.)  

But I still consider the old Mayfair Games _*DC Heroes *_and its _MEGS (Mayfair Exponential Game System) _to be the best, most flexible, and most fluid superhero RPG ever. The way it breaks down every possible measurement into APs (Attribute Points) for manipulation via the game mechanics is just beautiful, with every 1 point increase representing a doubling of value; 0 AP of weight = 50 lbs, 1 AP = 100 lbs; 0 APs of time = 4 seconds (1 combat round) and 1 AP = 8 seconds etc. A Strength score of 5 is twice as strong as a Strength of 4. How far can a character throw a certain weight? Just take his Strength score and subtract the APs of weight, and the result is the APs of distance your PC can throw the object. So elegant.

There is still an active _DC Heroes/MEGS _fan community that maintains a website database of stats for various characters from comic books, novels, video games, movies, and TV.


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## Aaron L (Jun 5, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I think this is a really important point, and one that a lot of RPG and even MCU fans just can't wrap their heads around--cape comics aren't about realism, so stop complaining about Black Widow and Hawkeye being in the Avengers, or arguing about whether Batman can beat Superman in a fight. Batman can, if that's what the story is, and Black Widow can kill alien soldiers with her dual handguns because these narratives are about clashes of will, not the nuances of pistol-caliber ballistics.
> 
> Obviously porting that sort of approach to an RPG is tough, but as much as I loved Champions back in the day, I don't think quantifying all of this stuff down, and therefore making some characters utterly helpless when not beating up a mugger, is doing the cape comic genre justice. Black Widow can't just headshot Doom with a Glock, but she could possibly sweep kick him off-balance, or keep him busy with that zappy business she does. Likewise, how boring it would be if everyone was just sort of failing to do anything to Doom and then Thor can knock him out with one hit, because he's Thor? Ideally you'd want teamwork to be a real factor, and even if Thor lands the big hit, maybe he lands it because others have neutralized Doom's defenses.
> 
> ...



The old DC Heroes RPG handled this sort of thing perfectly with its system.


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## darjr (Jun 5, 2021)

Aaron L said:


> The old DC Heroes RPG handled this sort of thing perfectly with its system.



But..... it was DC....

i kid, I really need to try it!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 5, 2021)

Aaron L said:


> I'll give this a look to see if it's any good, but I still like the old '80s TSR _FASERIP _*Marvel Superheroes *RPG, with its adjectival ability score rankings (your PC could have an Amazing rank Fighting score and a Monstrous rank Endurance, for example.)
> 
> But I still consider the old Mayfair Games _*DC Heroes *_and its _MEGS (Mayfair Exponential Game System) _to be the best, most flexible, and most fluid superhero RPG ever. The way it breaks down every possible measurement into APs (Attribute Points) for manipulation via the game mechanics is just beautiful, with every 1 point increase representing a doubling of value; 0 AP of weight = 50 lbs, 1 AP = 100 lbs; 0 APs of time = 4 seconds (1 combat round) and 1 AP = 8 seconds etc. A Strength score of 5 is twice as strong as a Strength of 4. How far can a character throw a certain weight? Just take his Strength score and subtract the APs of weight, and the result is the APs of distance your PC can throw the object. So elegant.
> 
> There is still an active _DC Heroes/MEGS _fan community that maintains a website database of stats for various characters from comic books, novels, video games, movies, and TV.




I really liked the official DC Heroes books that were done for Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Ed.


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## Aaron L (Jun 5, 2021)

darjr said:


> But..... it was DC....
> 
> i kid, I really need to try it!



Doesn't matter 
Writeups.org - In-depth character profiles from comics, games, movies has full MEGS stats, bios, and histories for just about any character you can imagine, from DC to Marvel to Cthulhu(!) to pro wrestling(!?)  (The stats for Thanos and Adam Warlock are my favorites.)

And the way MEGS works with its exponential AP system means that, say, The Batman can get into a fistfight with Superman and actually last a few rounds (long enough for a contingency plan or some special piece of tech to be brought into play) instead of being rendered into red paste by a single punch.

And that's not even getting into the stock of Hero Points that every character has, which act as both XP for character progression and as a kind of fate point mechanic and can be spent to "Push" abilities to give them a temporary boost, or used to mitigate damage.

(Every character is built from a certain number of Hero Points as determined by the GM according to what level of power they want to set for their game.  Superman is obviously built from a much larger pool of HP than The Batman.  For example the Writeups.Org version of Cthulhu was built from 10,102 Hero Points and is of a fairly comparable power level to Thanos, as is only appropriate.  The stats for The Infinity Gauntlet are actually listed under Adam Warlock's stats.)


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## TrippyHippy (Jun 5, 2021)

There are two Spidermans in that cover, but no Hulk.


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## Sunsword (Jun 5, 2021)

Abstruse said:


> On the one hand, this is being done in-house by Marvel so there's no license to yank. Marvel owns the Marvel properties.
> 
> On the other hand, this is the second tabletop RPG that Marvel has done in-house after the Marvel Universe Roleplaying Game, which they supported for a little over a year before letting it stagnate and selling a license to Margaret Weis Productions for Marvel Heroic.




Matt Forbeck and the Marvel properties could really bring some top names to a streaming of games using the 616 system. Matt has worked with tons of RPG luminaries and if someone got Jeff Goldblum to play an RPG in a stream, could you imagine Marvel getting Chris Evans or Tom Holland or Benedict Cumberbatch playing the game online?


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## Grendel_Khan (Jun 5, 2021)

TrippyHippy said:


> There are two Spiderman’s in that cover, but no Hulk.




Plural of Spider-Man is Spiders-Man.


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## Abstruse (Jun 5, 2021)

Sunsword said:


> Matt Forbeck and the Marvel properties could really bring some top names to a streaming of games using the 616 system. Matt has worked with tons of RPG luminaries and if someone got Jeff Goldblum to play an RPG in a stream, could you imagine Marvel getting Chris Evans or Tom Holland or Benedict Cumberbatch playing the game online?



The question is which Marvel is doing this.

Right now, Marvel is technically two companies that are subsidiaries of Disney. Marvel Studios creates the MCU material - the movies and TV shows. Marvel Entertainment is the comic book company, which has had...let's just summarize by saying "management issues". So if this is being done by Marvel Entertainment (which is more likely), they won't have access to the MCU actors.

Also...when your film-based partner company has four of the top ten highest-grossing films of all time, I don't think any amount of live streaming is going to help brand exposure.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 5, 2021)

Abstruse said:


> Also...when your film-based partner company has four of the top ten highest-grossing films of all time, I don't think any amount of live streaming is going to help brand exposure.



It'll bring a ton of awareness to the product.


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## Umbran (Jun 6, 2021)

Abstruse said:


> The question is which Marvel is doing this.




It says right on the bottom of the press release that it is from Marvel Entertainment.


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## Umbran (Jun 6, 2021)

Sunsword said:


> Matt has worked with tons of RPG luminaries and if someone got Jeff Goldblum to play an RPG in a stream, could you imagine Marvel getting Chris Evans or Tom Holland or Benedict Cumberbatch playing the game online?




That would be interesting, but unlikely.  There's money to be had in actual play, but I wouldn't expect it to be enough to be worth what those people can rightfully change for their time and involvement.

Maybe for a charity event?  Make a donation to watch the Actual Play stream?  That might work.


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## BrockBallingdark (Jun 6, 2021)

Umbran said:


> Sure.  But that was nearly 20 years ago.
> 
> Marvel Entertainment, as an organization, is an entirely different beast today.  I am not sure why you would expect the same behavior.



I agree on this 1000 percent.


----------



## aramis erak (Jun 6, 2021)

Abstruse said:


> The question is which Marvel is doing this.
> 
> Right now, Marvel is technically two companies that are subsidiaries of Disney. Marvel Studios creates the MCU material - the movies and TV shows. Marvel Entertainment is the comic book company, which has had...let's just summarize by saying "management issues". So if this is being done by Marvel Entertainment (which is more likely), they won't have access to the MCU actors.
> 
> Also...when your film-based partner company has four of the top ten highest-grossing films of all time, I don't think any amount of live streaming is going to help brand exposure.



If they're using Universe 616, it's almost assuredly Marvel Entertainment.
If it were universe 199999, it'd be almost assured to be Marvel Studios.
There are well over a dozen different numbered universes...but they each fall under one or the other.

As for brand exposure, it never hurts to get more. And until Marvel has the top 20, they're going to keep going for more. Hell, all top 20 probably won't be enough.


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## Whizbang Dustyboots (Jun 6, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> If they're using Universe 616, it's almost assuredly Marvel Entertainment.
> If it were universe 199999, it'd be almost assured to be Marvel Studios.



The art and the d616, etc., show it's 616. That said, it seems like an obvious move to have the MCU as an alternate setting, either within the core book or in a supplement. (Some of us won't use the Marvel Universe at all, and just use the corebook to make our own superhero universes, of course.)


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## Parmandur (Jun 6, 2021)

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> The art and the d616, etc., show it's 616. That said, it seems like an obvious move to have the MCU as an alternate setting, either within the core book or in a supplement. (Some of us won't use the Marvel Universe at all, and just use the corebook to make our own superhero universes, of course.)



Yeah, I really hope this is a robust system...


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## Umbran (Jun 6, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> If they're using Universe 616, it's almost assuredly Marvel Entertainment.








THE BLOODY PRESS RELEASE SAYS MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT ON IT PEOPLE!!!1!!!one!


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## darjr (Jun 6, 2021)

Umbran said:


> View attachment 137883
> THE BLOODY PRESS RELEASE SAYS MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT ON IT PEOPLE!!!1!!!one!



Welcome to the internet


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## Morrus (Jun 6, 2021)

Umbran said:


> THE BLOODY PRESS RELEASE SAYS MARVEL ENTERTAINMENT ON IT PEOPLE!!!1!!!one!



To be fair, when I pointed out - in answer to your question about it - that the press release said you could make new characters, you said:



			
				Umbran said:
			
		

> Marketing announcements are where weasel-words go to breed. And remember how 5e was supposed to be "modular"? How well did that turn out?




So do we believe the press release or do we not believe the press release? You can choose either, which is fine, but not choose one and then yell at people for doing likewise.


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## Umbran (Jun 7, 2021)

Morrus said:


> So do we believe the press release or do we not believe the press release? You can choose either, which is fine, but not choose one and then yell at people for doing likewise.




So, Morrus, back before 5e came out, they said it was going to be "modular".  That failed to turn out.  But, nobody ever doubted that WotC was going to be the publisher.  It is almost as if who is publishing it and the qualities of the unseen future work aren't comparable pieces of data.  How surprising.


----------



## Parmandur (Jun 7, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, Morrus, back before 5e came out, they said it was going to be "modular".  That failed to turn out.  But, nobody ever doubted that WotC was going to be the publisher.  It is almost as if who is publishing it and the qualities of the unseen future work aren't comparable pieces of data.  How surprising.



We're  still bickering about whether they failed to ddeliver. They included optional modules that moat people don't use, that don't break the game either way, that some people feel everyone must use because the handful of tables they know use them. Mission accomplished.


----------



## Bardic Dave (Jun 7, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, Morrus, back before 5e came out, they said it was going to be "modular".  That failed to turn out.  But, nobody ever doubted that WotC was going to be the publisher.  It is almost as if who is publishing it and the qualities of the unseen future work aren't comparable pieces of data.  How surprising.




A press release vaguely promising "modularity" (a nebulous concept that could mean a lot of different things), and a press release advertising the inclusion of character creation (a much more discrete concept–either you can create characters or you can't) are not at all comparable. I think it's pretty much a sure thing this game will include character creation if that's what they're advertising. With respect to this detail, your "weasel-words" claim feels a bit off the mark.

I think Morrus hit the nail on the head with his post though: it's asinine to defend the fact that you overlooked a detail by claiming press releases are all "weasel-words" with one breath, while chiding others for overlooking a detail from the press release with the next.

But really, could the staff please stop publicly bickering? It's a really bad look.


----------



## pemerton (Jun 7, 2021)

eyeheartawk said:


> Also saddled with the fact that you couldn't make your own characters ( a edict from Marvel)



It's very straightforward to make PCs for Marvel Heroic. I wrote up two (for my kids) in about 10 minutes each yesterday. I've designed characters using the same system for fantasy RPGing too.

You just work out what the character is able to do, and assign appropriate traits and abilities.


----------



## pemerton (Jun 7, 2021)

LuisCarlos17f said:


> What about characters with total regeneration? For example Wolwerine or Deadpool. Or the characters to rich, not only Tony Stark, but also the Fantastic Four or Mark Spector.
> 
> How to avoid the overpowered characters?



I think there are many solutions to these "problems" able to be learned from contemporary RPG design.



Umbran said:


> I don't specifically need random, or point buy.
> I do specifically want a system that implements some balance in the game, and doesn't shift that burden entirely on the GM's shoulders making them into the villain who has to personally implement all limits.  Let a system do some of that work, please.



The MHRP system does do this work: powers are scaled at d8, d10 and d12 and so you can see pretty straightforwardly whether your character is at Punisher/Captain America level, at Spidey/Power Man level, or at Thor/Hulk level. And the system itself does a pretty good job of accommodating different power levels.

I've played quite a bit of MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, and built characters for it. The only balance concerns I've had, and they certainly weren't enough to break the game, were Wolverine being perhaps a little too good in a straightforward supers game, and Gandalf being perhaps a little too good in my LotR game.



Greg K said:


> There was a whole section on creating new Datafiles. The section mentions creating datafiles for unpublished Marvel heroes, but does not mention non-Marvel heroes. However, creating a datafile for a character published by Marvel, some other publisher, or one's own unique hero is the same process.The vast majority of people in the discussion threads on RPGNet had no problem with it. It was only a handful (maybe, slightly more) of people that were upset that random or point buy generation was not included. As to whether or not it was a user-friendly method is a separate issue (personally, I found it user-friendly except Milestones which are awkward for how my games go).



I agree with all this except the bit about Milestones. I thought they actually worked very well for a supers-style game: because they create the possibility for the players to be managing their PCs advancement, via pushing towards and/or creating their own Milestone-relevant events, somewhat independently of the fiction being created by the GM as the focus of the Action scenes. This reminded me of how, in superhero comics, the personal development often happens largely independently of whether its Electro or Arcade or Dr Doom who is this month's villain.


----------



## pemerton (Jun 7, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Yaarel said:
> 
> 
> > Might ≈ Strength
> ...



THAT SPELL *M.A.R.V.E.L.*

(Sorry, it just seemed important do state the most important bit unambiguously.

EDIT: I had a further thought that it's a good thing that we don't still have a Comeliness stat, because then the seventh stat would have to be Ugliness, to spell out M.A.R.V.E.L.U.


----------



## pemerton (Jun 7, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I think this is a really important point, and one that a lot of RPG and even MCU fans just can't wrap their heads around--cape comics aren't about realism, so stop complaining about Black Widow and Hawkeye being in the Avengers, or arguing about whether Batman can beat Superman in a fight. Batman can, if that's what the story is, and Black Widow can kill alien soldiers with her dual handguns because these narratives are about clashes of will, not the nuances of pistol-caliber ballistics.
> 
> Obviously porting that sort of approach to an RPG is tough, but as much as I loved Champions back in the day, I don't think quantifying all of this stuff down, and therefore making some characters utterly helpless when not beating up a mugger, is doing the cape comic genre justice.
> 
> ...



Marvel Heroic RP does just this, by flattening without eliminating the numerical expression of power differentials, and by given the GM an incentive to throw extra resources against the more powerful PCs.



Greg K said:


> As for balance,I had enough people with actual play experiene tell me that the system balances characters in play and works for having Hawkeye and Black Widow on a team with Thor, Iron Man and the Hulk. Similarly, I was told that a street level character could hold their own in a team-up with someone with all d12 powers in power set.



I think that last sentence is probably a bit exaggerated - I think that sort of team-up (eg Green Arrow and Green Lantern) will push the system tolerances a little bit. Most of the characters in the Annihilation book - flagged as a "cosmic" event - are markedly more powerful (in numerical terms) than most of the characters in the Civil War books. I think this would manifest itself in play, though I'll admit that I haven't tried a game with such marked power differentials.



THEMNGMNT said:


> I'm just about to finish my first mini-campaign of Marvel Heroic Roleplaying. It's fantastic. I'm a bit shocked at the criticism of it in this thread.



It's always been controversial, partly for the character build thing and partly because it's extremely non-D&D-ish in its approach to resolution and to play more generally.



Greg K said:


> However, I still want to give MHR a try (thanks to a website that discussed using the game for non-Event based games) and it the first system to which I would turn for a certain style of game/campaign depending upon the players.



I've had no trouble using the system both for supers and (taking some ideas from the Cortex Hackers' Guide) for fantasy, without using an "event" framework.

I think it's a great system, and the supers play has, for me, been very comic bookish in feel.


----------



## Rafael Martin (Jun 7, 2021)

I am looking forward to rolling a d616 and getting a 347.


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Jun 7, 2021)

Umbran said:


> So, Morrus, back before 5e came out, they said it was going to be "modular".  That failed to turn out.  But, nobody ever doubted that WotC was going to be the publisher.  It is almost as if who is publishing it and the qualities of the unseen future work aren't comparable pieces of data.  How surprising.



Yeah, I share your concerns here.

Marvel RPGs have an interesting history. Most of them have had, for my money, excellent mechanics which were, if anything, before their time (FASERIP, MSHAG, Cortex being the ones I'm familiar with), yeah all three of them were very much focused on playing the default characters and worked well with that but increasingly less well with others. FASERIP probably did the best, for my money.

Really hoping two things with this one:

1) It has a genuinely great system, and doesn't break that trend.

2) As you say, it lets you create your own characters.

Re: 2, honestly what gives me the most hope is the blank outline character on the cover, which suggests "your character here" in a way not present in other Marvel RPGs.

The most concerning thing is that the lead developer isn't someone whose work I'm super-familiar with, except I really didn't like the system of Brave New World (or the original Mutant Chronicles). My worry is he wasn't chosen because he had some amazing vision for a Marvel RPG with a great, accessible system, but because he was experienced, and a "safe pair of hands", and Marvel execs don't give two shakes of a lamb's tail about the system because the game is going to sell based on other factors.

Glad there are two X-Men on the cover at least, so it's not some MCU-only deal. Though oh my god that is the worst Thor I've ever seen. If it wasn't for the hammer I wouldn't even have recognised him. Is it some weird-ass variant Thor, like Black Knight holding Thor's hammer or something?


----------



## Ruin Explorer (Jun 7, 2021)

Rafael Martin said:


> I am looking forward to rolling a d616 and getting a 347.



If it's anything like the d66 or d666 approaches I've seen (2d6 and 3d6 each read separately, like a d100, but missing numbers above 6), I'll probably be d6 d10 d6 or something. So you could roll 346 but not 347.


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## Greg K (Jun 7, 2021)

pemerton said:


> I agree with all this except the bit about Milestones. I thought they actually worked very well for a supers-style game: because they create the possibility for the players to be managing their PCs advancement, via pushing towards and/or creating their own Milestone-relevant events, somewhat independently of the fiction being created by the GM as the focus of the Action scenes. This reminded me of how, in superhero comics, the personal development often happens largely independently of whether its Electro or Arcade or Dr Doom who is this month's villain.



I did not say they don't work well in general. I said I felt that they would not work well for the type of game that I likr to run. I like the idea behind them. However, I remember feeling they could be an issue and at the lower point range feel forced.  I'd have to go back and look at Milestones and see if it jars my memory (it has been several years) and then take time to articulate my thoughts if does. However, I have a three hour final due tonight and need to finish a short paper regarding my final project which is also due tonight (yay, for being back in school   ).


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## Greg K (Jun 7, 2021)

pemerton said:


> Marvel Heroic RP does just this, by flattening without eliminating the numerical expression of power differentials, and by given the GM an
> I think that last sentence is probably a bit exaggerated - I think that sort of team-up (eg Green Arrow and Green Lantern) will push the system tolerances a little bit. Most of the characters in the Annihilation book - flagged as a "cosmic" event - are markedly more powerful (in numerical terms) than most of the characters in the Civil War books. I think this would manifest itself in play, though I'll admit that I haven't tried a game with such marked power differentials.



It may have been, but that is what I was told- the lower powered characters would generate more 1s and therefore more pp which would balance them out.
Now, I never saw the Annihilation event book (nor do I have any desire to read the source material). Cosmic can mean two diffierent things in comics- cosmic scale in terms of power level or cosmic as taking place in space (ok, I guess three things if it the title or event dealswith both). I don't the people making the comment had "Cosmic" power, pretty much do all due all characters in mind or someone like either the Hulk (Strength, Durability and Stamina at Godlike level) or Thor (Godlike Strength and Stamina plus Godlike Durability and Weather Supermacy through Mjolnir) when they made their comments.


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## Lord_Blacksteel (Jun 7, 2021)

It's been interesting to read everyone's thoughts on the various Marvel systems and some of the things that had me fired up have been addressed already but there were a couple of points I wanted to make:

Matt Forbeck has worked on a ton of games so I am 100% sure he's not going to see this as a chance to being back the Brave New World mechanics and finally get them the presentation they deserve 
I think it's extremely unlikely we will see an actual d16 used. I'd expect a d20 and d6's, maybe d10's - I assume the name is a joke and a unique, trademark-friendly identifier.
It's clearly meant to be friendly to 5E players so I wouldn't expect radical innovation here but I would be happy to be surprised.
The paid playtest thing ... that's interesting. We've seen it with Pathfinder, sure, and with FFG Star Wars but it's odd that a big non-RPG company is taking that approach. Looks like the playtest starts in 2022 so we won't see a finished game until 2023. Well, it should be an interesting run.


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## Greg K (Jun 7, 2021)

pemerton said:


> The MHRP system does do this work: powers are scaled at d8, d10 and d12 and so you can see pretty straightforwardly whether your character is at Punisher/Captain America level, at Spidey/Power Man level, or at Thor/Hulk level. And the system itself does a pretty good job of accommodating different power levels.



As a fan of 70's and early 80's Marvel, I do miss the level between Spidey/Powerman and Thor/Hulk in which Iron Man, Rogue, and a few others fell.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 7, 2021)

Lord_Blacksteel said:


> I think it's extremely unlikely we will see an actual d16 used. I'd expect a d20 and d6's, maybe d10's - I assume the name is a joke and a unique, trademark-friendly identifier.



Be shocked if a d20 is used. It's practically a D&D trademark and I don't think it's actually helpful as a part of most RPG design. Of course I'd die of shock if an actual d16 was used (I do have one!). Fully expecting d6s and d10s here.


Lord_Blacksteel said:


> It's clearly meant to be friendly to 5E players so I wouldn't expect radical innovation here but I would be happy to be surprised.



it doesn't need to be radical, but hopefully it's a bit tighter and more modern in its general design than 5E is outside of combat. I expect combat will have a fairly traditional action-order approach rather than a more narrative "DM says who goes" deal like PtbA/Resistance/etc.


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## Parmandur (Jun 7, 2021)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Be shocked if a d20 is used. It's practically a D&D trademark and I don't think it's actually helpful as a part of most RPG design. Of course I'd die of shock if an actual d16 was used (I do have one!). Fully expecting d6s and d10s here.
> 
> it doesn't need to be radical, but hopefully it's a bit tighter and more modern in its general design than 5E is outside of combat. I expect combat will have a fairly traditional action-order approach rather than a more narrative "DM says who goes" deal like PtbA/Resistance/etc.



The main reason to think dice like a d20 would be ysed is that they sell those duce sets in Walmart and Target, so they are very, very widely available.


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## pemerton (Jun 7, 2021)

I wasn't going to reply because you have papers to write! But you've prompted me to in any event.



Greg K said:


> Now, I never saw the Annihilation event book (nor do I have any desire to read the source material). Cosmic can mean two diffierent things in comics- cosmic scale in terms of power level or cosmic as taking place in space (ok, I guess three things if it the title or event dealswith both). I don't the people making the comment had "Cosmic" power, pretty much do all due all characters in mind or someone like either the Hulk (Strength, Durability and Stamina at Godlike level) or Thor (Godlike Strength and Stamina plus Godlike Durability and Weather Supermacy through Mjolnir) when they made their comments.



There are a couple of typos that mean I'm not following this 100%. But many of the characters in Annihilation have power sets with multiple d12s. I think this would be noticeable in play alongside (say) Captain America. 



Greg K said:


> that is what I was told- the lower powered characters would generate more 1s and therefore more pp which would balance them out.



Yep, that's true. It's not enough on its own - you also need the GM to throw the Doom Pool dice generated by those 1s at the more powerful PCs. In my experience it took a couple of sessions to start to get a feel for Doom Pool dynamics, and it's not a perfect mechanic, but I quite like it.

But I think a pool with d12s in it is pretty strong, and so will put some pressure on the balance between PCs. I'm conjecturing a bit when I say I don't think it would be fatal in any way, but I think it might be noticed in play. The weaker PCs, for instance, might start to focus more on establishing assets that then assist the stronger PC in actually delivering the 12+ result that saves the day.



Greg K said:


> As a fan of 70's and early 80's Marvel, I do miss the level between Spidey/Powerman and Thor/Hulk in which Iron Man, Rogue, and a few others fell.



One way the system can pick that up is via having multiple powersets, which therefore allows more dice in the pool. Eg in our supers game one player played Nightcrawler (with one power set), one Iceman (likewise with one power set) and another War Machine (with two power sets, one for his armour and one for his weapons).


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## Zaukrie (Jun 7, 2021)

Putting aside mechanics......what kind of adventures happen in super hero games? How do you keep them from being all powerful all the time? I've never played a super hero game.....and am curious what kinds of stories people ran.


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## LuisCarlos17f (Jun 7, 2021)

I wonder about if the 616 system will try to harness the synergy of popularity of the d20 system. Most of newbie players only want to learn the system of their favorite or first game. If the 616 system is not enough good, then the players will buy the books for the fluff/lore/blackground, and this is a very rich, but not the crunch. In the internet age lot of players would rather to read the fandom wikis. 

I think Marvel is going to release, or they should, something like a DM Guild where 3PPs and players can publish their own ideas, for example an alternate timeline where the superheroes appeared in the 30's years and now the heroes are the third generation (but thanks high advanced science and the discovered secret of the eternal youth humans can be live more time. The sad part is the new generations can't find the better jobs because they are too many veterans who don't retire but to fund their own business). 

If the 616 system is too close to d20 system then others, for example Paizo, could publish their own clone. 

The 616 system has to show or offer something more interesting than the system of Mutants & Masterminds.  

In the past I suggest a special leveling-up with two pillars for a d20 superheroes. One of the pillars would be the classic "+hit points, +bonus attack and bonus save check", and the second pillar is all the learn things but not linked with the battlefield, for example languanges, sciences, driving vehicles. This could allow games where the PCs are too powerful, and then one of the pillars would be "frozen", but the XPs rewards would be used for the second pillar.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 7, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The main reason to think dice like a d20 would be ysed is that they sell those duce sets in Walmart and Target, so they are very, very widely available.



I presume dice sets include all dice equally? I mean, they sure used to. Looking at Walmart and Target in the US the dice sets they sell are either all d6 or equal-ish numbers of all dice. So d20s are exactly as available as d12s, d10s, d8s and d4s aren't they?


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 7, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Putting aside mechanics......what kind of adventures happen in super hero games? How do you keep them from being all powerful all the time? I've never played a super hero game.....and am curious what kinds of stories people ran.



My experience is that they tend to be about discovering and then foiling the plans of more-powerful villains whilst often dealing with some kind of interpersonal drama (possibly including maintaining a secret identity). You don't really need to keep people from being "all powerful" because few superheroes are, especially Marvel ones, and people tend to roleplay them rather than rollplay them. Plus a lot of the systems involved are kind of narrative-oriented (all the way back to the late '90s) and keep things fairly balanced in terms of how narratively powerful everyone is, even if one guy can lift a battleship and another is just telepathic or whatever. It's a little easier with Marvel as their top guys tend to be a rank in power down from DC (with some exceptions that fans will argue about literally endlessly).

Depending on the exact RPG though the focus and nature of the campaign can vary wildly, as one might expect.


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## Parmandur (Jun 7, 2021)

Ruin Explorer said:


> I presume dice sets include all dice equally? I mean, they sure used to. Looking at Walmart and Target in the US the dice sets they sell are either all d6 or equal-ish numbers of all dice. So d20s are exactly as available as d12s, d10s, d8s and d4s aren't they?



The one's I've seen in the board game sections of Target next to the D&D Sets are sets of the classic 7 dice, yes. My impression from Forbeck has said so far, and admitting isn't much, is that people who bought the D&D Starter Set st Tsrget and an extra set of dice may be be core target demo here.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 7, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The one's I've seen in the board game sections of Target next to the D&D Sets are sets of the classic 7 dice, yes. My impression from Forbeck has said so far, and admitting isn't much, is that people who bought the D&D Starter Set st Tsrget and an extra set of dice may be be core target demo here.



Which would be the same target audience as Marvel FASERIP and MSHAG, no? FASERIP used a d100-based system and MSHAG didn't even use dice, just a deck of cards that came with it.


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## Parmandur (Jun 7, 2021)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Which would be the same target audience as Marvel FASERIP and MSHAG, no? FASERIP used a d100-based system and MSHAG didn't even use dice, just a deck of cards that came with it.



I think they might want to poach more from the market leader than TSR managed to do.


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## MGibster (Jun 7, 2021)

Grendel_Khan said:


> I think this is a really important point, and one that a lot of RPG and even MCU fans just can't wrap their heads around--cape comics aren't about realism, so stop complaining about Black Widow and Hawkeye being in the Avengers, or arguing about whether Batman can beat Superman in a fight. Batman can, if that's what the story is, and Black Widow can kill alien soldiers with her dual handguns because these narratives are about clashes of will, not the nuances of pistol-caliber ballistics.



I'm with you there.  Batman is my favorite DC hero (Spider-Man my favorite Marvel hero), and I've got no problem with him being able to defeat Superman in a fight provided the writers come up with some clever way for him to win.  That said, I much prefer the Batman stories where he's in Gotham pitted against the likes of mundane criminal organizations, corrupt officials, and his rogue's gallery than the stories where he's fighting Darkseid but even those stories can be pretty good.  And when Batman contributes to defeating powerful villains like Darkseid he doesn't usually do it with punches or a batarang to the throat he finds some other way to gain the upper hand.


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## pemerton (Jun 7, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Putting aside mechanics......what kind of adventures happen in super hero games? How do you keep them from being all powerful all the time? I've never played a super hero game.....and am curious what kinds of stories people ran.



Speaking just from my own experience, which is solely with MHRP: the heroes thwarted an assassination attempt in Congress, made by a Doombot but failed to track down its origins; foiled various attacks on the Smithsonian but failed to stop Titanium Man returning to his secret base in Khazakstan; followed the trail of the Smithsonian attacks to Tokyo and Clan Yashida, and then back to Washington and Dr Doom's secret base beneath the Latverian Embassy in Washington, DC.

We haven't played a session since then. But from my perspective it was pretty typical 80s- and early 90s-style Marvel (which is the material I'm most familiar with).


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## MidnightBlue (Jun 7, 2021)

I have to admit that I'm a little bummed by the news of a new Marvel RPG with a different system, instead of it getting the Cortex Prime treatment to carry on after Marvel Heroic ended.  I have every Marvel RPG...FASERIP, SAGA, Marvel Universe Roleplaying (also published by Marvel directly), and Marvel Heroic...Marvel Heroic being my all-time favorite.  I've used that little $19.99 Marvel Heroic Roleplaying Basic Game book to create a TON of fun characters, NPCs and settings (Golden Age, noir, 4-color, grim-dark, fantasy, sci-fi, and tons of licensed property conversions for personal use)...probably the best $20 I've ever spent.

I know 5E rules the world right now, and I'm not saying anything negative about it, but it isn't my preferred system.  I'm sure I'll grab it...because I won't be able to stop myself...but when I have a choice in the matter, we'll be playing Marvel Heroic, I'm sure.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 7, 2021)

I know everyone is pegging 5E D&D as an influence, but what about other current systems? After all, unless it is a typo, the announcement does say:



> a natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games on the market




Games plural. And on the market, so no older games that were popular, but now out-of-print.

So besides 5E, what other games are hot right now that would not clash rules-wise?


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## Parmandur (Jun 7, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I know everyone is pegging 5E D&D as an influence, but what about other current systems? After all, unless it is a typo, the announcement does say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pathfinder and Starfinder, possibly.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 7, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Pathfinder and Starfinder, possibly.




I was going to say what besides D20 systems are hot right now, instead of just 5E, but a lot of them probably would clash with 5E, PF and SF.


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## Parmandur (Jun 7, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I was going to say what besides D20 systems are hot right now, instead of just 5E, but a lot of them probably would clash with 5E, PF and SF.



I mean, realistically,  nothing other than some sort of d20 derivative is hot in any mass market sense. 5E is 100% of the RPGs for sale at my local Target, and based on Amazon sales all other RPGs are dwarfed by Pathfinder,  let alone D&D.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 8, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> I mean, realistically,  nothing other than some sort of d20 derivative is hot in any mass market sense. 5E is 100% of the RPGs for sale at my local Target, and based on Amazon sales all other RPGs are dwarfed by Pathfinder,  let alone D&D.




Yeah, I went looking around for the usual sales figures articles and the only outlier I can find was an article from Feb about how much huger CoC is than D&D in Japan. I wonder if they would find any inspiration in the more open BRP ruleset?


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## pemerton (Jun 8, 2021)

Given that they have said they will use D&D stats, and have alluded to D&D 5e and derivatives in the description ("most popular RPGs") it seems pretty likely this will be a d20-ish/D&D-ish game.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 8, 2021)

pemerton said:


> Given that they have said they will use D&D stats, and have alluded to D&D 5e and derivatives in the description ("most popular RPGs") it seems pretty likely this will be a d20-ish/D&D-ish game.




I have seen no quote at all about that. Do you have a link? People here connecting M.A.R.V.E.L. to the D&D stats is not the same as Marvel actually saying they are using the SRD or OGL.


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## pemerton (Jun 8, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I have seen no quote at all about that. Do you have a link? People here connecting M.A.R.V.E.L. to the D&D stats is not the same as Marvel actually saying they are using the SRD or OGL.



I'm not saying that have said they will use the SRD or OGL. You don't need to do that to publish a D&D-ish RPG.

The press release says "a natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games on the market. Use Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic to win the day". If they are in fact intending to produce a Fate-like or PbtA-ish game, they have done a very good job of concealing it!

Whereas taking at face value, the game will be a "natural evolution" for 5e D&D players who will use the standard 6 stats in action resolution.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 8, 2021)

pemerton said:


> I'm not saying that have said they will use the SRD or OGL. You don't need to do that to publish a D&D-ish RPG.
> 
> The press release says "a natural evolution for those familiar with the most popular tabletop role-playing games on the market. Use Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic to win the day". If they are in fact intending to produce a Fate-like or PbtA-ish game, they have done a very good job of concealing it!
> 
> Whereas taking at face value, the game will be a "natural evolution" for 5e D&D players who will use the standard 6 stats in action resolution.




Which is why in my comment I asked about games, plural, if it that is not a typo, which other games besides D&D are influencing this one. And the two you mention are by no means among "the most popular role-playing games on the market."


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## pemerton (Jun 8, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Which is why in my comment I asked about games, plural, if it that is not a typo, which other games besides D&D are influencing this one. And the two you mention are by no means among "the most popular role-playing games on the market."



The game is likely to be _influenced_ by a wide range of current designs, just as recent versions of D&D have been.

But I think the game will pretty clearly be D&D-adjacent.


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## Paul Chrysler (Jun 8, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Quote from the article: "Use Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic to win the day, and discover your true abilities as you face impossible odds!"
> 
> Sounds pretty D&Dish based on that; renamed 6 stats and "discover your true abilities" sure sounds like level progression.



Or, someone really wanted the stats to spell MARVEL.


----------



## BrockBallingdark (Jun 8, 2021)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Though oh my god that is the worst Thor I've ever seen. If it wasn't for the hammer I wouldn't even have recognised him. Is it some weird-ass variant Thor, like Black Knight holding Thor's hammer or something?



The Thor on the front cover is from Thor #1 Jan 2020 (fallout of the War of the Realms storyline). So I'm thinking like most that the multiverse would bring us different versions of all the heroes and villains.  I loved MHR but didn't care for the character advancement portion of the game.  I don't think they are going to do a 5e version as that just doesn't work (hated Mutants and Masterminds even with the changes they made to move away from the traditional D&D system).   I'm sure they may take elements of 5e but the Alien comics/movies (now a Disney/Marvel property) is doing well with the Free League system as an RPG.  I'm sure they are aware of that and may use elements of that system as well.  I don't want the fighting in this game to be too narrative, like to have a little more crunch than Free League games.  I'm very curious and hope for no "Levels" or "Hit Points".  Time will tell.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 8, 2021)

BrockBallingdark said:


> The Thor on the front cover is from Thor #1 Jan 2020 (fallout of the War of the Realms storyline). So I'm thinking like most that the multiverse would bring us different versions of all the heroes and villains.  I loved MHR but didn't care for the character advancement portion of the game.  I don't think they are going to do a 5e version as that just doesn't work (hated Mutants and Masterminds even with the changes they made to move away from the traditional D&D system).   I'm sure they may take elements of 5e but the Alien comics/movies (now a Disney/Marvel property) is doing well with the Free League system as an RPG.  I'm sure they are aware of that and may use elements of that system as well.  I don't want the fighting in this game to be too narrative, like to have a little more crunch than Free League games.  I'm very curious and hope for no "Levels" or "Hit Points".  Time will tell.



None of the previous big Marvel RPGs used levels, nor significantly increasing HP and it doesn't fit the genre, so I'm hopeful they'll avoid it. I think an HP-type system as in a flat measure of damage absorbance isn't a bad fit for Supers, they just need to not increase too much.

Re: 5E I doubt it'll be very close, because it's a licensed product and is using a system it is calling unique, not the OGL, but I do note they're using six stats, which are roughly equivalent to the six D&D stats - Might Agility Resilience Vigilance Ego Logic (shades of SHAZAM) - so STR/DEX/CON/WIS/CHA/INT, essentially - however a lot of games very different to D&D have used similar stat-sets.

That and the "d616" business are more or less everything we know about the system.

And yeah the multiverse theme-ing has to be intentional re: bringing in "your favourite" versions of various heroes.

It's also interesting and a comment on the general revival of fortunes of RPGs (or perceived revival) that Marvel themselves are publishing this, rather than simply licencing it out to someone, which means all the risks and benefits are on them. They must be pretty sure it's going to be a hit - which is I guess not unreasonable give the significant crossover between D&D players and MCU fans.

Honestly despite some concerns I feel unreasonably optimistic about this based on how much I've liked previous Marvel RPGs.


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## hopeless (Jun 8, 2021)

Fighting, Agility, Strength, Endurance, Reason, Intuition and Psyche using d100 and a table indicating the chance of a simple failure, green simple success, an amber moderate success and a red critical success with some challenges requiring a higher level of success to work.

Is it any better than the much older version that I described above?


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 8, 2021)

hopeless said:


> Fighting, Agility, Strength, Endurance, Reason, Intuition and Psyche using d100 and a table indicating the chance of a simple failure, green simple success, an amber moderate success and a red critical success with some challenges requiring a higher level of success to work.
> 
> Is it any better than the much older version that I described above?



We have no idea, do we, dude?

How would anyone answer that question, given that, as I outlined, all we know is the name of the stats and the name of the system.

FASERIP was undoubtedly before its time, design-wise and is still pretty good, but d100 isn't a great resolution mechanism, and it could do with a sort of more-narrative upgrade. It's not unbeatable - though it is, I would argue, better-designed than many later Supers RPGs.


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## Undrave (Jun 8, 2021)

TwoSix said:


> Quote from the article: "Use Might, Agility, Resilience, Vigilance, Ego, and Logic to win the day, and discover your true abilities as you face impossible odds!"
> 
> Sounds pretty D&Dish based on that; renamed 6 stats and "discover your true abilities" sure sounds like level progression.



*M*ight
*A*gility
*R*esilience
*V*igilance
*E*go
*L*ogic

I see what they did...
EDIT: I got ninja'd hard but still... I see it.


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## Undrave (Jun 8, 2021)

Morrus said:


> Biggest movie franchise in the world! This is going to be very interesting to watch.



Technically Pokémon is still a bigger franchise... but I guess it's not a 'movie' franchise... 

Where's the tabletop RPG, GameFreaks?!


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## darjr (Jun 8, 2021)

Undrave said:


> Technically Pokémon is still a bigger franchise... but I guess it's not a 'movie' franchise...
> 
> Where's the tabletop RPG, GameFreaks?!



WotC had one written


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## pemerton (Jun 8, 2021)

Undrave said:


> Technically Pokémon is still a bigger franchise... but I guess it's not a 'movie' franchise...



Does the Marvel Universe have a Katy Perry song yet?


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## Undrave (Jun 8, 2021)

darjr said:


> WotC had one written



Yeah back then had the card game licence they made a sorta 'Baby's first RPG' but it was closer to Choose Your Own Adventure than D&D.


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## darjr (Jun 8, 2021)

Undrave said:


> Yeah back then had the card game licence they made a sorta 'Baby's first RPG' but it was closer to Choose Your Own Adventure than D&D.



Yup and it almost outsold every other rpg prodict.


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## Lord_Blacksteel (Jun 8, 2021)

<Managed to mess that up nicely>


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## Mistwell (Jun 8, 2021)

I did not realize Earth 616 is the main Marvel universe. Duh!


----------



## Lord_Blacksteel (Jun 8, 2021)

Zaukrie said:


> Putting aside mechanics......what kind of adventures happen in super hero games? How do you keep them from being all powerful all the time? I've never played a super hero game.....and am curious what kinds of stories people ran.



Well usually the goal is to play through something like what you would see in a comic book run, a superhero movie, or -and probably the best example - something you would see in an episode of "Justice League".

It's not about loot. It's not about powering up with items you find. It's about doing the right thing, saving the world, and bragging rights ...
"Did you see that? I just punched Doctor Zero through a skyscraper!"

You can also season to taste by focusing in on personal relationships, questions of right vs. wrong and vigilante-ism vs legal niceties. Are you hunted and feared for your strange abilities or widely admired for your awesome powers?

Stopping supervillians, thwarting the plans of evil agencies, heading off alien invasions, helping people through natural disasters, and generally saving the world - or the universe - is a regular part of these kinds of games.


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## aramis erak (Jun 9, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The main reason to think dice like a d20 would be ysed is that they sell those duce sets in Walmart and Target, so they are very, very widely available.



I got doublmark d7 (physical d14) via walmart.com... d14, d16, d18, and d24 are available via walmart.com, either direct mail or ship to store. Not as convenient as having them in stock to go pick up (and not all walmarts have toy & game sections), but if a kid has a gift card, it's easy enough to order to store and bypass mom & dad...


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## aramis erak (Jun 9, 2021)

Ruin Explorer said:


> I presume dice sets include all dice equally? I mean, they sure used to. Looking at Walmart and Target in the US the dice sets they sell are either all d6 or equal-ish numbers of all dice. So d20s are exactly as available as d12s, d10s, d8s and d4s aren't they?



Variation in standard poly sets goes back to the mid 1980s...
All of the following were "standard" by 1990:

d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20
d4, 3d6, d8, d10, d12, d20
d4, 4d6, d8, d10, d12, d20
d4, 3d6, d8, 2d10, d12, d20 (Noting that the second d10 was a different color)
Modern sets _tend_ to be:

d4, d6, d8, d10, d10×10, d12, d20
d4, 3d6, d8, d10, d10×10, d12, d20
d4, 4d6, d8, d10, d10×10, d12, d20
But I've seen ones without the d10×10 recently (last 13 months) as well. 4d6 tend to be more common than 3d6, since those who roll tend to use 4d6k3 for stat gen.

I like minidice, too. And I've not seen a minidice poly set in a decade that didn't have 3d6 or 4d6 and a d10×10. (That may be selection by my available local game stores. Most of which are friendly.)

So, categorically, no, they don't.
Especially now that there are sets with d3, d5, d7, d14, d16, d18, d22, d24 d28 d30... those sets I've seen include multiple d6 and a d10×10; one included a d10×100 (for rolling d1000).

edit to add: a few sets were sold that were 2d10 and 4d6, as well, specifically for twilight 2000 2.0 and a few other games using only 10's and 6's (Cyberpunk 2013, 2020). They were not common. It also was a good set for WFRP.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 9, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> So, categorically, no, they don't.



Yeah I guess my question was phrased badly, because what you detected I was actually asking was "Have dice sets changed in what they contain since I was buying dice regularly in the 1990s" and the answer is basically "no" - there's a subtle change you illustrate but not much. But still there's no particular reason to use d20s in a game - and I'll be honest and say I hope they do not. The longer I play RPGs, the better I understand mechanics, the less I like d20s, much as I loved the hell out of them when I was new.


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## Wardook (Jun 9, 2021)

Mat says:

Matt Forbeck
JUNE 8, 2021 AT 3:54 PM
I didn’t write the press release, so I can’t say for sure if that plural was intentional or not. I might point out, however, that even the most popular RPG of all time is actually an evolutionary set of RPGs that led to the release of the latest edition.

That said, there are numerous influences on the game. I’ve worked on countless systems myself—and played even more—and those experiences all come into play (so to speak).


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## Wardook (Jun 9, 2021)

Double post.


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## darjr (Jun 9, 2021)

They are d616 TABLES. Now you need to figure out how to roll on em!  

Dunno what the mechanics are but I do trust the creators on this project.


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## Undrave (Jun 9, 2021)

I'm gonna guess they'll use some kind of special dice, that seems to be all the rage nowadays to squeeze more money out of the fanbase. You're gonna need to buy the book and the dice set and there will be a special set with both.


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## Ruin Explorer (Jun 9, 2021)

Undrave said:


> I'm gonna guess they'll use some kind of special dice, that seems to be all the rage nowadays to squeeze more money out of the fanbase. You're gonna need to buy the book and the dice set and there will be a special set with both.



Ugh if they do that's a dealbreaker for me. I've had enough of special dice.

But I doubt it given d616, because d66 and d666 are just normal d6es rolled in a specific way.


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## Parmandur (Jun 9, 2021)

Undrave said:


> I'm gonna guess they'll use some kind of special dice, that seems to be all the rage nowadays to squeeze more money out of the fanbase. You're gonna need to buy the book and the dice set and there will be a special set with both.



They seem to be signaling the opposite, actually.


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## Undrave (Jun 9, 2021)

Ruin Explorer said:


> Ugh if they do that's a dealbreaker for me. I've had enough of special dice.
> 
> But I doubt it given d616, because d66 and d666 are just normal d6es rolled in a specific way.



I was thinking they could use a d6+d16 thing somehow. d16 aren't impossible to find but they're not standard so they would release their own set of dice.


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## pemerton (Jun 10, 2021)

I'm not going to go so far as to say the use of a D16 is inconceivable. Just that it's _incredibly _unlikely.

The systems will almost certainly use a d20 as its key resolution tool. That's how you make it easy for D&D players to understand and pick up.

There are plenty of non-d20, non-D&D adjacent games that use a d20 for resolution. HeroWars/Quest is one; The Green Knight RPG (the movie-inspired one) is another. That latter game also uses stats (Courage, Charm, Cunning, Intellect, Might) and skills that sit under them (three skills per stat, and all the stats do is feed through to the skill bonuses). But its resolution system and its play have almost nothing in common with D&D besides both being RPGs.

So I think it's very possible to have a 6-stat, d20 based game that will - in its surface features - be accessible to D&D players, and yet have a game that in its maths and the nuances of its play is quite different from D&D. I think that that is more likely to be where the interesting design questions arise for this Marvel RPG.


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## Parmandur (Jun 10, 2021)

pemerton said:


> I'm not going to go so far as to say the use of a D16 is inconceivable. Just that it's _incredibly _unlikely.
> 
> The systems will almost certainly use a d20 as its key resolution tool. That's how you make it easy for D&D players to understand and pick up.
> 
> ...



There is a lot you can do with Platonic solids, mathematically.


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## Marc Radle (Jun 10, 2021)

Undrave said:


> I'm gonna guess they'll use some kind of special dice, that seems to be all the rage nowadays to squeeze more money out of the fanbase. You're gonna need to buy the book and the dice set and there will be a special set with both.




I’m curious what you mean by ‘all the rage nowadays’. What current games require special dice other than the typical 7 we all have?


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## pemerton (Jun 10, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> There is a lot you can do with Platonic solids, mathematically.



Even more than that: there's a lot you can do with a d20 + bonuses rolled against a target number that will affect the play of the game.

To elaborate by reference to The Green Knight (which I played twice on the weekend, after my boxed set arrived on Friday morning, and so it's on my mind!):

Characters are defined by whether or not a stat is ticked (you get 2 ticks) and whether or not a skill is ticked (you get 4 ticks). As I said, each skill sits under stat and so each skill has zero ticks, one tick (stat ticked, or skill ticked, but not both) or two ticks (both stat and skill ticked). The corresponding bonus is +0, +2 or +4. Action resolution is d20 + bonus.

So far, so simple. And pretty easy, I think, for even a casual d20 player to pick up.

The target number for all actions is the character's Dishonour score. This starts at 10. If you succeed in an Honourable action, it drops by 1. If you fail in an Honourable action, or attempt a Dishonourable one (whether you succeed or fail), it grows by 1. And a further rule: if your action is Dishonourable then you want to roll equal or lower rather than equal or higher, and you subtract rather than add your bonuses.

There are some further rules that affect the Dishonour score: some character abilities can manipulate the way action resolution affects Dishonour; at the top of each action order every character gains a point of Dishonour (so every encounter is on a clock); and at the end of each Encounter the GM awards Honour or Dishonour according to a fairly systematic list of actions they may have performed during the encounter, and the way the encounter resolved.

This is an illustration of how rules for setting target numbers, feedback rules between action resolution and those target numbers, rules for how encounter outcomes affect other parameters, etc, can all shape the game play pretty profoundly while having a system that, on its surface, looks pretty familiar and is easy to pick up if all you know is D&D.

Now to be clear, I'm not predicting that this Marvel game will look anything like The Green Knight, nor that it will be as different in its play from D&D as The Green Knight is. I'm just trying to make the point that you can get a pretty varied range of incentives, play experiences, etc while using d20 + bonus => target number as the core of your resolution engine.


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## Undrave (Jun 10, 2021)

Marc Radle said:


> I’m curious what you mean by ‘all the rage nowadays’. What current games require special dice other than the typical 7 we all have?



I know Fate uses different dices... And the guys who do the Star Trek RPG, aren't they known for specialty dice? And the Star Wars one used special dice too right?


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## Parmandur (Jun 10, 2021)

Undrave said:


> I know Fate uses different dices... And the guys who do the Star Trek RPG, aren't they known for specialty dice? And the Star Wars one used special dice too right?



The Star Trek RPG uses 2 d20, they do sell d20s with Star Trek stuff on them. Fate dice can be replaced with any do, just rolling for odd or even. Star Wars and the heritage version, Genedis, used special dice, but isn't a currently updating game. All the active games I can think of use do, d20 or d100 in some combo primarily,  other dice optional.


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## Undrave (Jun 10, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> The Star Trek RPG uses 2 d20, they do sell d20s with Star Trek stuff on them. Fate dice can be replaced with any do, just rolling for odd or even. Star Wars and the heritage version, Genedis, used special dice, but isn't a currently updating game. All the active games I can think of use do, d20 or d100 in some combo primarily,  other dice optional.



Well, nevermind then, I wasn't paying attention I guess.

Well I guess it might just be one of those systems where you throw a bunch of d6 and the 6 are successes? So it's d616 as in "roll Xd6 and get one 6 to Y"?


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## Campbell (Jun 10, 2021)

2d20 uses effect dice which you can purchase from Modiphius, but you can also use standard d6s for. Vampire 5th Edition also can benefit from special dice, but standard d10s work pretty well.

The only major RPGs that pretty much require special dice I am aware of are FFG's various games and Fate.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 10, 2021)

Regarding the D616 system, someone asked about it on Matt Forbeck's blog and this was his reply:

"I’m afraid I can’t say more at the moment about the particulars, but it is a whole new system."

So Matt is calling it a whole new system, but how new can any system be these days, especially if it uses the standard dice.


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## Thomas Shey (Jun 10, 2021)

Campbell said:


> 2d20 uses effect dice which you can purchase from Modiphius, but you can also use standard d6s for. Vampire 5th Edition also can benefit from special dice, but standard d10s work pretty well.
> 
> The only major RPGs that pretty much require special dice I am aware of are FFG's various games and Fate.




And it should be noted that Fudge dice are mechanically identical to just rolling 4D3-8.  Its probably a little clumsier than using the Fudge dice if you aren't used to reading D6 as D3s and don't have custom D3s, but its entirely doable.


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## pemerton (Jun 10, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> how new can any system be these days, especially if it uses the standard dice.



See my post not far upthread. I think the answer is _pretty new!_


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## aramis erak (Jun 10, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> And it should be noted that Fudge dice are mechanically identical to just rolling 4D3-8.  Its probably a little clumsier than using the Fudge dice if you aren't used to reading D6 as D3s and don't have custom D3s, but its entirely doable.



Not to mention that a number of fate implementations specify 1d6-1d6 instead of 4dF, and the game plays much the same either way.

I'd not be at all surprised to see uncommon dice used to be a sales boost. 

I somehow doubt that symbolic results (a la FFG SW/Genesys, FFG L5R, Modiphius effect dice) will be used.  The biggest pushback amongst the people I've gamed with is the need for custom dice. Once they tried star wars or L5R using conversion mats, they decided the app or the custom dice were an improvement over conversion mats; most felt it worth using the custom dice, but not buying the custom dice. 
Modiphius' effect dice are not slow enough for most to want the official effect dice. For my own use, I repainted some of the dots.

If they do, as some of us have suggested, use 1d6 & 1d16 for Marvel, a 2 dice set can get away with a $5 pair. Or maybe 3 pair for $12.
Until they actually tell us the dice mechanic, it's all speculation, but I'll note that a number of groups bought FFG's EOTE starter box (released during the Edge Playtest) to get the dice and map; some groups had multiple players do so... (Mine had 3 beginner boxes by the close of the playtest.)


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## Thomas Shey (Jun 11, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> Not to mention that a number of fate implementations specify 1d6-1d6 instead of 4dF, and the game plays much the same either way.




Sure, but that one is mathematically a little different if someone is fussy.


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## aramis erak (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> Sure, but that one is mathematically a little different if someone is fussy.



I'm not saying optional rule; several flavors of FATE specify their dice roll as d6-d6, never even mentioning fudge/fate dice. They're older - at least 5 years... once fate took off, fate branded df became suddenly a thing. So, for those flavors, fussy doesn't really matter.


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## Thomas Shey (Jun 11, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> I'm not saying optional rule; several flavors of FATE specify their dice roll as d6-d6, never even mentioning fudge/fate dice. They're older - at least 5 years... once fate took off, fate branded df became suddenly a thing. So, for those flavors, fussy doesn't really matter.




You obviously have not been around some of the FATE fans I have.   If they hit a FATE game that didn't use FATE dice, they'd immediately make it that it does.


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## aramis erak (Jun 11, 2021)

Thomas Shey said:


> You obviously have not been around some of the FATE fans I have.   If they hit a FATE game that didn't use FATE dice, they'd immediately make it that it does.



That's not _fussy_, that's _arrogant_.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 11, 2021)

Alright, some more thoughts. Multiverse is in the title, but the MCU does not have a multiverse.....yet. The playtest does not even get released until next Spring, so if the MCU information might be part of the RPG, what do we have happening in the movies/Disney+ before the playtest is released? The release of Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness on March 25, 2022. I think the timing of the releases of the movie and the playtest are intentional because there won't be a multiverse for the RPG until the movie comes out.


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## Parmandur (Jun 11, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Alright, some more thoughts. Multiverse is in the title, but the MCU does not have a multiverse.....yet. The playtest does not even get released until next Spring, so if the MCU information might be part of the RPG, what do we have happening in the movies/Disney+ before the playtest is released? The release of Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness on March 25, 2022. I think the timing of the releases of the movie and the playtest are intentional because there won't be a multiverse for the RPG until the movie comes out.



Marvel comics has had a multiverse for decades, and this is a Marvel Comics RPG...not MCU.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 11, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> Marvel comics has had a multiverse for decades, and this is a Marvel Comics RPG...not MCU.




A lot of people are expecting it to be both, since the MCU is part of the overall Marvel multiverse.


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## Parmandur (Jun 11, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> A lot of people are expecting it to be both, since the MCU is part of the overall Marvel multiverse.



It'll probably make it in somewhere if the game is successful...but this is comics first.


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## Thomas Shey (Jun 11, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> That's not _fussy_, that's _arrogant_.




If you say so, but the distinction seems pretty subtle to me.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 11, 2021)

Parmandur said:


> It'll probably make it in somewhere if the game is successful...but this is comics first.




And that has a chance to limit the audience for the game. Many millions more people watch the movies than ever read the comics. I have not read a Marvel or DC comic since the late 90's and I have no desire to go back to them and much prefer the stories from the movies and D+. The comic books could all be cancelled and rebooted for the 100th time and I would never notice.


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## aramis erak (Jun 12, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> And that has a chance to limit the audience for the game. Many millions more people watch the movies than ever read the comics. I have not read a Marvel or DC comic since the late 90's and I have no desire to go back to them and much prefer the stories from the movies and D+. The comic books could all be cancelled and rebooted for the 100th time and I would never notice.



Maybe, but not really that significant, _due to the nature of the Marvel continuities_...

The MCU (u# 199999) is pretty close to the main comics continuity (u# 616), and most of  the big plotlines have been borrowed into 199999 from 616. Whedon having been in charge, he's kept 199999 pretty close to 616, quite on purpose, as he's a comics nerd, too.

There is, however, simply more to draw from in 616, so the broader coverage is a good thing. And it's not like stats for Black Widow #1 (Natasha) are that different across the range. Nor Thor, Loki, Captain America, Spiderman, Spider-woman, Spider Girl, Hulk, She-hulk, Storm, Wolverine, Rogue, etc...


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## Staffan (Jun 12, 2021)

Marc Radle said:


> I’m curious what you mean by ‘all the rage nowadays’. What current games require special dice other than the typical 7 we all have?



In addition to FFG's Star Wars/Genesys and Modiphius's 2d20 effect dice, Mutant Year Zero does. Technically you can get by with regular d6:es, but you need to provide them in at least three different colors and keep track of special effects on 1s on two of them. Forbidden Lands uses a similar system, but mixes it up by adding Artifact dice that can be bigger and have up to three successes (IIRC) on them.

2d20, at least in its Star Trek form, uses Challenge Dice that I would not want to convert from regular dice on the fly. A 1 is one hit/damage, a 2 is two hits/damage, 3-4 do nothing, and 5-6 are one hit/damage + an Effect. That's complex enough that I'd want to use the special dice.

The One Ring also uses a special d12 numbered 1-10 with a pair of extra symbols, but I'm not sure what those mean or how convenient it would be to just use a regular d12 and say 11 = Gandalf and 12 = Sauron.


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## aramis erak (Jun 12, 2021)

Staffan said:


> In addition to FFG's Star Wars/Genesys and Modiphius's 2d20 effect dice, Mutant Year Zero does. Technically you can get by with regular d6:es, but you need to provide them in at least three different colors and keep track of special effects on 1s on two of them. Forbidden Lands uses a similar system, but mixes it up by adding Artifact dice that can be bigger and have up to three successes (IIRC) on them.
> 
> 2d20, at least in its Star Trek form, uses Challenge Dice that I would not want to convert from regular dice on the fly. A 1 is one hit/damage, a 2 is two hits/damage, 3-4 do nothing, and 5-6 are one hit/damage + an Effect. That's complex enough that I'd want to use the special dice.
> 
> The One Ring also uses a special d12 numbered 1-10 with a pair of extra symbols, but I'm not sure what those mean or how convenient it would be to just use a regular d12 and say 11 = Gandalf and 12 = Sauron.



You've got the relationship backwards on the d12 for TOR. 11 is Sauron, 12 for gandalf. 11/Sauron is read as 0, and if you failed, a crit fail.  12/Gandalf is simply a "you achieve a success"...

Trek, JCoM, and Conan use effect dice; Dune does not.  The effect dice work identically across games. My players had no issues using a graphical card reminder of the effect dice results.

MYZ needs three colors; Alien needs two. Tales needs 1. Vaessen needs 1. The custom symbols are nice, but far from essential, as it's always and only 1 for bad and 6 for success.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Jun 12, 2021)

People are going on about special uses for the standard 7 dice, when it was asked about systems that use special dice and not the standard 7, it was meant about dice with a number of sides other than those 7, not standard-sided dice with things other than numbers on them. This is drawn from the early talk about whether this new system will use a D16.


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## Staffan (Jun 12, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> MYZ needs three colors; Alien needs two. Tales needs 1. Vaessen needs 1. The custom symbols are nice, but far from essential, as it's always and only 1 for bad and 6 for success.



Yes, you can do without in a pinch, but they're really nice to have. Particularly because 1s (a) mean different things on gear, skill, and ability dice, and (b) can be rerolled when pushing on skill dice but not on ability or gear dice (as shown by having symbols on the "1" side on those dice).

I mean, you can use regular dice for any game. Even Star Wars has a key explaining how to use regular d6s, d8s, and d12s, but I certainly wouldn't want to play that way.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 7, 2021)

Not much new info that I can find on this four months after the initial announcement. One thing, if Amazon has the correct date, is that the vague March 2022 release date is now showing a specific date of March 29, 2022 and a page count of 104 and it is $9.99. That date is now officially after Doctor Strange 2 hits theaters, so as I wondered before, if the game includes all Marvel properties, Loki has aired, and What If? has aired, and the multiverse of DS2 will be known, how will it all work together?


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## Tonguez (Oct 8, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Not much new info that I can find on this four months after the initial announcement. One thing, if Amazon has the correct date, is that the vague March 2022 release date is now showing a specific date of March 29, 2022 and a page count of 104 and it is $9.99. That date is now officially after Doctor Strange 2 hits theaters, so as I wondered before, if the game includes all Marvel properties, Loki has aired, and What If? has aired, and the multiverse of DS2 will be known, how will it all work together?



As of Loki and What If... there is No Canon so every game table is a unique timeline where players create their own M.A.R.V.E.L stories, the company gets to mine the MCU for basic build ideas and then give players permission to have Variants of everything


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## Umbran (Oct 8, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> That date is now officially after Doctor Strange 2 hits theaters, so as I wondered before, if the game includes all Marvel properties, Loki has aired, and What If? has aired, and the multiverse of DS2 will be known, how will it all work together?




I don't think it has to "all work together".  This is not the "Marvel Released Canon" RPG.  The titular acceptance of the Multiverse means that every game is its own thing, and you don't have to worry about it all.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Oct 8, 2021)

I also asked Matt Forbeck on Twitter if those were just placeholders or the real deal and he said that date and price are as accurate as he is aware, though things can change.


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## ART! (Oct 8, 2021)

Umbran said:


> I don't think it has to "all work together".  This is not the "Marvel Released Canon" RPG.  The titular acceptance of the Multiverse means that every game is its own thing, and you don't have to worry about it all.



Yeah, I will be _very_ surprised if this game is well-coordinated with the MCU as of whenever it's published.


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## aramis erak (Oct 14, 2021)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Not much new info that I can find on this four months after the initial announcement. One thing, if Amazon has the correct date, is that the vague March 2022 release date is now showing a specific date of March 29, 2022 and a page count of 104 and it is $9.99. That date is now officially after Doctor Strange 2 hits theaters, so as I wondered before, if the game includes all Marvel properties, Loki has aired, and What If? has aired, and the multiverse of DS2 will be known, how will it all work together?



According to Amazon, That's the public playtest version - loss leader pricing. Expect the final game to be later and more expensive.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Nov 19, 2021)

aramis erak said:


> According to Amazon, That's the public playtest version - loss leader pricing. Expect the final game to be later and more expensive.




I somehow missed this reply to me, but of course it is the price for just the playtest version. No one ever said anything different.

And for everyone following this thread, who might somehow miss the new announcement thread:









						Marvel Multiverse RPG Alternate Covers
					

Marvel has revealed some alternate covers for its upcoming Marvel Multiverse RPG (written by Matt Forbeck). The new covers are by Peach Momoko and Logan Lubera, and the standard cover is by Iban Coello.  The game uses a new "D616" system and will be released next year with a playtest book. "“…...




					www.enworld.org


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## jagrhunter (Nov 20, 2021)

They won't lose money.  They may, however, simply not have a long term vision and willingness to support the game moving forward


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## overgeeked (Nov 20, 2021)

Since we now know rolls will be 3d6 and something special happens when you roll 6-1-6, let's speculate on the system itself.

With 3d6 there are 216 possible combinations of results. That 6-1-6 thing will happen...what...3/216 or 1.38%.

There's two top contenders for resolution. 3d6 added together vs TN or 3d6 looking for successes.

Looking for successes is slightly easier and faster. Added together is slightly slower. Neither is particularly "familiar" to D&D players. 3d6 added together is slightly more familiar as it's one of the lesser used options for generating character stats. If you're rolling stats in D&D it's more likely to be 4d6 drop the lowest.

Maybe that "familiar" line is about the six stats being nearly identical to D&D's six.

MARVEL. Might. Agility. Resilience. Vigilance. Ego. Logic.

Ego is the odd one out. The rest are fairly straightforward. STR, DEX, CON, WIS, X, INT.

Does Ego the Living Planet have that stat maxed?

I wonder if there will be any connection to the Official Power Grid Marvel has used. That 0-7 thing they have in their official books and appears in the wikias and fandom sites, like this one...









						Thor Odinson (Earth-616)
					

Thor is the God of Thunder, a member of the race known as the Asgardians, a group of humanoid beings from the pocket dimension of Asgard, the Realm Eternal. Thor is the son of Odin, the All-Father and King of Asgard. He was worshiped by the humans known as Vikings and became part of Norse...




					marvel.fandom.com
				




Though that has six stats, they're different than those presented in the RPG.


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## Staffan (Nov 20, 2021)

overgeeked said:


> Ego is the odd one out. The rest are fairly straightforward. STR, DEX, CON, WIS, X, INT.



Ego is likely some version of willpower, psychic/magic ability, and the like.


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## darjr (Nov 20, 2021)

Ego is, like, this planet, ya know?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 24, 2022)

Small update on this. A small delay in release date and a small increase in page count.


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## Von Ether (Feb 24, 2022)

120 pages? Interesting.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 24, 2022)

Von Ether said:


> 120 pages? Interesting.




Yep, not a bad size for just a playtest book.


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## eyeheartawk (Feb 24, 2022)

Wait, are they doing the whole "Pay us to playtest the book" thing?


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 24, 2022)

eyeheartawk said:


> Wait, are they doing the whole "Pay us to playtest the book" thing?




Yes, that has never been a secret and was known since the original announcement back in June.


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## ART! (Feb 24, 2022)

I pre-ordered a copy through my FLCS. I don't know what the odds are of my group playing it, but between my curiosity, the cost, and willingness to support the store, I figured "what the heck?"


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## Jer (Feb 24, 2022)

Von Ether said:


> 120 pages? Interesting.



$10 for a 120 page comic book sounds about right these days. 



eyeheartawk said:


> Wait, are they doing the whole "Pay us to playtest the book" thing?



Yes, except it's probably more along the lines of "pay us for a preview for the game and we might tweak a few things between this preview and the final release based on feedback".  Making Marvel readers feel like "part of the company" is part of what the Marvel experience has always been about after all.

Marvel is selling this as if it were a comic book through comic book channels, not a game through game store channels.  Which makes this an interesting experiment but also means bringing comic book store owners on board to sell it.  A $10 preview IMO is actually not that bad if it actually does contain a playable game experience.

(Here's their Diamond Previews page for it - as a comics reader for _mumble mumble_ years it's pretty obvious what Marvel's doing with this. MARVEL MULTIVERSE RPG PLAYTEST RULEBOOK TP MOMOKO DM VAR (DEC211092))


----------



## eyeheartawk (Feb 24, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yes, that has never been a secret and was known since the original announcement back in June.



Okay, I saw the OP and it didn't mention there was a cost to the open playtest, but looking back in the previous pages, it appears that wasn't a secret.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Feb 24, 2022)

eyeheartawk said:


> Okay, I saw the OP and it didn't mention there was a cost to the open playtest, but looking back in the previous pages, it appears that wasn't a secret.




Well, we did have to click through the link to the official Marvel announcement to see price and such. Why that was not listed in the OP, I don't know.

And at least it is a lot cheaper than the Pathfinder playtest books or the 5E Eberron "playtest" book was. And yes, while that was not strictly a playtest, it's popularity did lead to the expanded hardcover Eberron book getting published.


----------



## Staffan (Feb 24, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Well, we did have to click through the link to the official Marvel announcement to see price and such. Why that was not listed in the OP, I don't know.
> 
> And at least it is a lot cheaper than the Pathfinder playtest books or the 5E Eberron "playtest" book was. And yes, while that was not strictly a playtest, it's popularity did lead to the expanded hardcover Eberron book getting published.



In fairness, the Pathfinder playtest material was also freely available online. The cost of the physical books was basically the printing cost plus whatever various middle-men add on top.


----------



## LongTimeLurker (Feb 24, 2022)

Just bring back the FASERIP system.


----------



## Umbran (Feb 24, 2022)

LongTimeLurker said:


> Just bring back the FASERIP system.




It would be difficult, in that was originally a TSR, and so now probably a WotC/Hasbro, product. Hashing through what's copyright protected, and what wasn't, would be such a bear.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Feb 24, 2022)

Not to yuck anyone's yum, but...just playtest the damn thing and then release a first edition. Or do a free open beta, essentially, via PDFs. So what if that limits your audience some? At least it doesn't come across as a bumbling, opportunistic cash grab, and establishes your bona fides at the start of what one would hope is a long product lifespan.


----------



## Jer (Feb 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> It would be difficult, in that was originally a TSR, and so now probably a WotC/Hasbro, product. Hashing through what's copyright protected, and what wasn't, would be such a bear.



There are retroclones out there that are walking that line but yeah - I doubt anyone with money would want to use that system.

Also - chart-based systems are pretty retro these days.  Torg is the only one in print that I can think of off the top of my head, and their decision to hew as close to the original system as possible was a choice made because it's so core to the original game that it's hard to imagine doing it without it (and they did cut as many charts at they could from the system when they revamped it).


----------



## Jer (Feb 24, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Not to yuck anyone's yum, but...just playtest the damn thing and then release a first edition. Or do a free open beta, essentially, via PDFs. So what if that limits your audience some? At least it doesn't come across as a bumbling, opportunistic cash grab, and establishes your bona fides at the start of what one would hope is a long product lifespan.



This is Marvel we're talking about.  This isn't a third party license making the game, Marvel is putting this together internally.  They aren't a game company, though they did hire at least one experienced game professional to write it.

I strongly suspect that Marvel is planning to avoid game stores and sell this through comic book stores.  Building hype for it and getting their current readers (and more importantly store owners) interested in it is going to be crucial to making it work.

(I'm still actually wondering if the final form factor for this game will be a traditional release, a comic-book sized trade paperback, or if Marvel will put the game out as individual issues and then collect them into a tradepaperback afterward.  And that last one is only somewhat a joke.)


----------



## Umbran (Feb 24, 2022)

Jer said:


> There are retroclones out there that are walking that line but yeah - I doubt anyone with money would want to use that system.




Retroclones with no economic impact aren't worth pursuing the issue on.  Since it isn't a trademark thing, they could choose what to let slide, and what not.



Jer said:


> Also - chart-based systems are pretty retro these days.




That too.  At least it is only the one chart, though.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Feb 24, 2022)

Jer said:


> This is Marvel we're talking about.  This isn't a third party license making the game, Marvel is putting this together internally.  They aren't a game company, though they did hire at least one experienced game professional to write it.
> 
> I strongly suspect that Marvel is planning to avoid game stores and sell this through comic book stores.  Building hype for it and getting their current readers (and more importantly store owners) interested in it is going to be crucial to making it work.
> 
> (I'm still actually wondering if the final form factor for this game will be a traditional release, a comic-book sized trade paperback, or if Marvel will put the game out as individual issues and then collect them into a tradepaperback afterward.  And that last one is only somewhat a joke.)




That it's Marvel, with all of the access to fans and instant press coverage they currently enjoy, is all the more reason to go the open beta route, at least to me. This isn't some itch.io project that needs to scrape together funds for an ashcan edition. Just make the game. Companies do it every day without charging for playtest access.

And just because something is a marketing strategy, even one that ultimately works, doesn't mean it has to be respected. Companies do exploitative stuff all the time. People like me whining about it is as much a part of the whole ugly capitalist process as anything else.


----------



## Von Ether (Feb 24, 2022)

I was just commenting on how short the book was at 120 pages. I didn't know it was $10 for a beta. I'm intrigued.


----------



## Jer (Feb 24, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> And just because something is a marketing strategy, even one that ultimately works, doesn't mean it has to be respected. Companies do exploitative stuff all the time. People like me whining about it is as much a part of the whole ugly capitalist process as anything else.



Oh I didn't say I *respect *it - let me make that clear.

It's just that if you look at the marketing strategies that Marvel uses on a monthly basis, this one is mild in comparison.  They're only trying to get store owners to shell out for 2 variant covers on it for starters.  That shows remarkable restraint on their part!  The standard for shadiness in the comics market needs a completely different calibration than what the games market uses.  But you can take it as read that mostly I object to pretty much most of how the comics arm of Marvel does business - from how they treat their employees all the way up to how their editor in chief once pretended to be Japanese to get stories published.


----------



## Parmandur (Feb 24, 2022)

Von Ether said:


> I was just commenting on how short the book was at 120 pages. I didn't know it was $10 for a beta. I'm intrigued.



Worth checking out, for sure.


----------



## Rikka66 (Feb 24, 2022)

Jer said:


> I strongly suspect that Marvel is planning to avoid game stores and sell this through comic book stores.




Are those different things in your area? Of my four local geek hobby shops, two just sell games and two sell both comics and games.


----------



## Grendel_Khan (Feb 24, 2022)

Jer said:


> Oh I didn't say I *respect *it - let me make that clear.
> 
> It's just that if you look at the marketing strategies that Marvel uses on a monthly basis, this one is mild in comparison.  They're only trying to get store owners to shell out for 2 variant covers on it for starters.  That shows remarkable restraint on their part!  The standard for shadiness in the comics market needs a completely different calibration than what the games market uses.  But you can take it as read that mostly I object to pretty much most of how the comics arm of Marvel does business - from how they treat their employees all the way up to how their editor in chief once pretended to be Japanese to get stories published.




Apologies! Bad reading comprehension on my part. We're certainly on the same team here.


----------



## Jer (Feb 24, 2022)

Grendel_Khan said:


> Apologies! Bad reading comprehension on my part. We're certainly on the same team here.



Naw - not your fault.  It very easily looks like I'm trying to defend them when actually I'm just resigned to their business practices.  I can see how my cynicism reads like support 

It's tough being a comics fan once you know how the business works.  The creators are great but the companies are terrible in general.


----------



## LongTimeLurker (Feb 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> It would be difficult, in that was originally a TSR, and so now probably a WotC/Hasbro, product. Hashing through what's copyright protected, and what wasn't, would be such a bear.



you're probably right; someone should clone it!


----------



## Staffan (Feb 24, 2022)

Jer said:


> There are retroclones out there that are walking that line but yeah - I doubt anyone with money would want to use that system.
> 
> Also - chart-based systems are pretty retro these days.  Torg is the only one in print that I can think of off the top of my head, and their decision to hew as close to the original system as possible was a choice made because it's so core to the original game that it's hard to imagine doing it without it (and they did cut as many charts at they could from the system when they revamped it).



To be fair, you only have the bonus chart in TORG: Eternity, although that does see a *lot* of use. But it's not like OG TORG where you also had charts for different types of interaction attacks, general success levels, damage (differentiated between ords and possibility-rated targets), two different types of "pushes" (things like running faster, lifting more, etc.), charm/persuasion, etcetera. OG TORG basically required a GM screen with all the charts, but TORG: Eternity pretty much only needs the bonus chart.


----------



## aramis erak (Feb 25, 2022)

Rikka66 said:


> Are those different things in your area? Of my four local geek hobby shops, two just sell games and two sell both comics and games.



In my area, two of the three gamestores are not comic stores. One I've not been to, but drive by; one I won't go back to ever (Owner is an arrogant jerk who makes me look humble and non-confrontational). The last is the comics, games, and collectibles shop...
three other stores carry some games... two educational supply places, and a hobby shop. The hobby shop is reducing their games progressively; they're getting out of the games business save for MTG sealed packs.


----------



## Vael (Apr 11, 2022)

Any recent news or reviews/previews?


----------



## ART! (Apr 11, 2022)

Vael said:


> Any recent news or reviews/previews?



My underdstanding is that my FLCS will have it in early May, so we can probably expect some lucky folks to have review copies or the like soon.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 11, 2022)

ART! said:


> My underdstanding is that my FLCS will have it in early May, so we can probably expect some lucky folks to have review copies or the like soon.




Are they sure they have the right date? Or did they just not order it soon enough to get copies on release day? It is still listed as April 19 for both physical and kindle release.


----------



## Lord_Blacksteel (Apr 11, 2022)

The latest release date on our Amazon pre-orders is the19th so some people may have a copy next week.

Screen refreshes and I see Enevhar already mentioned it above - ah well!


----------



## ART! (Apr 11, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Are they sure they have the right date? Or did they just not order it soon enough to get copies on release day? It is still listed as April 19 for both physical and kindle release.



IIRC, I was told the release date had been bumped to early May.


----------



## Morrus (Apr 11, 2022)

ART! said:


> IIRC, I was told the release date had been bumped to early May.



Matt Forbeck was saying 'less than two weeks' on the 7th April, and Amazon still says the 19th, so it sounds like the 19th April is still the release date. Your FLGS seems to be getting it later for some reason?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 11, 2022)

I recently moved to a new city, which seems to have about 5 or 6 comic shops, or about 5 more than my previous location, but they practice the US small-business tradition of being closed on Mondays, so I need to wait until tomorrow to call around and see if any of them pre-ordered copies or if I have to order through Amazon. But I will find out more on their date for it tomorrow. If theirs are off too, then it could just be a Diamond Distribution thing, or whichever company is handling it.

edit: just went to Twitter and Matt just posted this a couple of minutes ago. @Morrus I don't know if you want to start a new thread dedicated to discussing this or not?









						Get a First Look at the New Marvel Multiverse Role-Playing Game
					

Plus an exclusive Q&A with game designer Matt Forbeck!




					www.marvel.com
				




Oh, and this article, direct from Marvel, says both digital and physical copies are available on April 20.


----------



## Gradine (Apr 11, 2022)

Nice


----------



## overgeeked (Apr 11, 2022)

Preview.









						Get a First Look at the New Marvel Multiverse Role-Playing Game
					

Plus an exclusive Q&A with game designer Matt Forbeck!




					www.marvel.com
				




“You roll three standard six-sided dice, one of which is the Marvel die. If you get a 1 on the Marvel die, you get a fantastic result and something amazing happens. If you get 6 on both of the other dice—or a 6-1-6 result—that’s an ultimate fantastic roll, which is even better.”

“Combine that with our rules for edges and troubles—which offer dice re-rolls”

Sounds like dis/advantage.


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## overgeeked (Apr 11, 2022)

I mean, the dice sound fun. But that branching / ranking power system. That reads a lot like feat chains. Ugh. I hope I’m wrong. If I’m right, I think I’d rather stick with MHR or Marvel Superheroes.


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## ART! (Apr 11, 2022)

I pre-ordered it through my FLCS, so I might be able to add to the convo when it lands.


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## darjr (Apr 11, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> I mean, the dice sound fun. But that branching / ranking power system. That reads a lot like feat chains. Ugh. I hope I’m wrong. If I’m right, I think I’d rather stick with MHR or Marvel Superheroes.



This is a playtest, I think, so time to chime in.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 11, 2022)

darjr said:


> This is a playtest, I think, so time to chime in.




I think there will be official channels to report playtests directly to Marvel, but I guess we will find out more on how that works in another 9 days!


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## overgeeked (Apr 11, 2022)

darjr said:


> This is a playtest, I think, so time to chime in.



Sure. But the chances of them reworking a fundamental aspect of a game that’s due to properly launch…when? 6-8 months from now…is not what I’d call high. Like most public playtests, especially those with a price tag, it’s more a marketing gimmick than a proper playtest.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 11, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Sure. But the chances of them reworking a fundamental aspect of a game that’s due to properly launch…when? 6-8 months from now…is not what I’d call high. Like most public playtests, especially those with a price tag, it’s more a marketing gimmick than a proper playtest.




No exact date has been given, just some time in 2023, so anywhere from 8-20 months from the release of the playtest. My guess would be at least 12 months after for the finalized book to come out. We will have a better estimate once the playtest is out and we see what time frame they give for reporting playtests back to them.


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## Jer (Apr 11, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> I mean, the dice sound fun. But that branching / ranking power system. That reads a lot like feat chains. Ugh. I hope I’m wrong. If I’m right, I think I’d rather stick with MHR or Marvel Superheroes.



Worse IMO I don't think those look like feat chains so much as "stunt restrictions".  As in you can't do the stunts named off your powers until you hit a certain rank and by the stunt.

I much prefer superhero systems where there's a stunt mechanic that lets you do the stunt without leveling up or hitting a certain level.  Spend some karma or a point of determination or a hero point or allow a die roll or anything like that.  Unless it's a tactical minis game (like Heroclix) half the fun of a superhero RPG is figuring out weird ways to use your powers.


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## overgeeked (Apr 12, 2022)

Jer said:


> Worse IMO I don't think those look like feat chains so much as "stunt restrictions".  As in you can't do the stunts named off your powers until you hit a certain rank and by the stunt.
> 
> I much prefer superhero systems where there's a stunt mechanic that lets you do the stunt without leveling up or hitting a certain level.  Spend some karma or a point of determination or a hero point or allow a die roll or anything like that.  Unless it's a tactical minis game (like Heroclix) half the fun of a superhero RPG is figuring out weird ways to use your powers.



Yeah. As other threads on other forums on the topic seem to indicate, it’s going to be a class and level system. Spidey’s class is polymath and his level is 10. If I wanted that level if supers crunch I would play M&M.


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## JEB (Apr 12, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> If I wanted that level if supers crunch I would play M&M.



M&M was my go-to system for nearly a decade, so I feel obliged to point out that it was not, in fact, class-based. And barely level based (basically just used for balancing character builds).

It was definitely crunchier than I'd play now, though. (5E spoiled me; and I keep hoping someone will try and do a M&M-type game based on 5E instead of 3E...)


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## Micah Sweet (Apr 12, 2022)

JEB said:


> M&M was go-to system for nearly a decade, so I feel obliged to point out that it was not, in fact, class-based. And barely level based (basically just used for balancing character builds).
> 
> It was definitely crunchier than I'd play now, though. (5E spoiled me; and I keep hoping someone will try and do a M&M-type game based on 5E instead of 3E...)



At least a few people have, but as far as I can tell nothing's really broken out of the pack.


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## JEB (Apr 12, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> At least a few people have, but as far as I can tell nothing's really broken out of the pack.



So far every 5E-based superhero game I've encountered still depends on classes, which is kind of the deal-breaker for me. (Yes, I consider this a likely minus for Multiverse here as well, but a friend is really hyped for it so I'll give it a try.) If you know of exceptions, I'm certainly interested...


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## overgeeked (Apr 12, 2022)

JEB said:


> M&M was my go-to system for nearly a decade, so I feel obliged to point out that it was not, in fact, class-based.



Yes, I’m well aware and quite familiar with the system. 


JEB said:


> It was definitely crunchier than I'd play now, though. (5E spoiled me; and I keep hoping someone will try and do a M&M-type game based on 5E instead of 3E...)



I’m honestly surprised GR hasn’t done a Supers AGE game.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 12, 2022)

JEB said:


> M&M was my go-to system for nearly a decade, so I feel obliged to point out that it was not, in fact, class-based. And barely level based (basically just used for balancing character builds).
> 
> It was definitely crunchier than I'd play now, though. (5E spoiled me; and I keep hoping someone will try and do a M&M-type game based on 5E instead of 3E...)





There are at least two.  I'm not a fan, because I don't think a D&D chassis is particularly good for a superhero game (notably M&M swung pretty far afield from 3e, moreso over time), but they exist.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 12, 2022)

JEB said:


> So far every 5E-based superhero game I've encountered still depends on classes, which is kind of the deal-breaker for me. (Yes, I consider this a likely minus for Multiverse here as well, but a friend is really hyped for it so I'll give it a try.) If you know of exceptions, I'm certainly interested...




Ah, yeah, far as I know all the ones to date use classes.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 12, 2022)

overgeeked said:


> Yes, I’m well aware and quite familiar with the system.
> 
> I’m honestly surprised GR hasn’t done a Supers AGE game.




They've got one of the more successful superhero games already.  Why compete with themselves?


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## Von Ether (Apr 12, 2022)

M&M was proof in the pudding for me players that will jump to play a "D&D" game even if the rules have changed so much that there is zero difference in the effort between learning it vs. an original game system.


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## humble minion (Apr 12, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> They've got one of the more successful superhero games already. Why compete with themselves?



I seems GR consider M&M a gameline that's either complete, or one that's been abandoned.  There hasn't been a new book for the game for well over a year, and GR have pivoted to churning out licenced properties like The Expanse and AGE sourcebooks mostly.

I've wondered for a while if we'd see an M&M 4th ed influenced either by AGE or 5e, but if GR are planning something like that they're keeping it reeeeal close to their chest.


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## JEB (Apr 12, 2022)

To be honest, at this point I'd rather someone other than Green Ronin produce an M&M successor, or really any RPG product I might actually want to use; the whole C.A. Suleiman situation put me off supporting the company for years now. (Since I really really liked Green Ronin before that, I keep hoping they'll do something to atone - but nothing so far...)


----------



## pemerton (Apr 12, 2022)

The preview of this system looks very unappealing to me. A MHRP "datafile" really portrays the character as I know them from the comics: their distinctions, their powersets, their special tricks. The least engaging part of a MHRP datafile is the list of "specialties" (basically, skills) - and the whole of the example Spider-Man sheet struck me as being like that.


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## Micah Sweet (Apr 12, 2022)

This game seems quite crunchy for a modern supers game, which as a genre has been trending narrative (veteran M&M notwithstanding).  I'm glad to see it, actually.  I love Marvel, but MHR had too much of FATE's skeleton for my taste.  FASERIP and M&M were my supers games of choice.


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## Blue (Apr 12, 2022)

eyeheartawk said:


> What's the over/under on how many books come out for this before Marvel yanks the license out from under them? Recent history has shown that this will be likely.



Asking this not to debate, but to clear up something I don't have a lot of information on:

When Margret Weis Productions no longer had the license to produce their Marvel Heroic Roleplay, was the license yanked/made prohibitive by Marvel or was let lapse on MWP's part?  I had the impression that MWP didn't renew the license, perhaps it wasn't profitable enough.  But I don't think I actively read that, just picked up a tone.


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## darjr (Apr 12, 2022)

Demiplane and Roll20 access for the playtest announcements!


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## Micah Sweet (Apr 12, 2022)

Blue said:


> Asking this not to debate, but to clear up something I don't have a lot of information on:
> 
> When Margret Weis Productions no longer had the license to produce their Marvel Heroic Roleplay, was the license yanked/made prohibitive by Marvel or was let lapse on MWP's part?  I had the impression that MWP didn't renew the license, perhaps it wasn't profitable enough.  But I don't think I actively read that, just picked up a tone.



My understanding was that the license was not renewed by Marvel because it wasn't profitable enough by their standards.  I believe MWP had at least one project close to completion that they weren't able to release because the license was pulled.


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## overgeeked (Apr 12, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> My understanding was that the license was not renewed by Marvel because it wasn't profitable enough by their standards.  I believe MWP had at least one project close to completion that they weren't able to release because the license was pulled.



MWP had more than one project in various stages of planning and was actively bringing in more freelancers to expand the line when the hammer dropped.


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 12, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> My understanding was that the license was not renewed by Marvel because it wasn't profitable enough by their standards.  I believe MWP had at least one project close to completion that they weren't able to release because the license was pulled.




Licenses are lost regardless of profits. Look at Cubicle 7 and them losing the license for The One Ring and Adventures in Middle-Earth when they were in the middle of making the 2nd edition of ToR and the big Moria boxed set. And those games, when combined, were quite profitable.


----------



## Thomas Shey (Apr 12, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Licenses are lost regardless of profits. Look at Cubicle 7 and them losing the license for The One Ring and Adventures in Middle-Earth when they were in the middle of making the 2nd edition of ToR and the big Moria boxed set. And those games, when combined, were quite profitable.




You might be having two different conversations here.  I think he's referring to profitable to the _licensor_, not the licensee, and I believe you might be referring the other way around.

Almost no RPG is going to be notably profitable to a big media licensor.  There's just not enough money in most of the business to be more than a blip to them.  I think there's some multiple-reinforcement benefits to having an RPG out there with your IP on it, but that's subtler, and hard to judge if the overhead on managing the license is worthwhile.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 12, 2022)

Thomas Shey said:


> You might be having two different conversations here.  I think he's referring to profitable to the _licensor_, not the licensee, and I believe you might be referring the other way around.
> 
> Almost no RPG is going to be notably profitable to a big media licensor.  There's just not enough money in most of the business to be more than a blip to them.  I think there's some multiple-reinforcement benefits to having an RPG out there with your IP on it, but that's subtler, and hard to judge if the overhead on managing the license is worthwhile.




Maybe. The license that C7 had was actually a sub-license from Sophisticated Games, who hold the actual license for ttrpgs using the LotR and Hobbit material, though Middle-Earth Enterprises still approved every book before it was released. And it has still never been publicly revealed what happened. I still wonder if it was because C7 was getting so heavy into all the Games Workshop licenses that Sophisticated felt C7 was not giving ToR enough attention and that triggered some clause in the contract, costing C7 the license regardless of actual profit. Or ME Ent was not happy with the additional lore being created for the game, same as when Iron Crown lost the license for making MERP.


----------



## Jer (Apr 12, 2022)

Micah Sweet said:


> My understanding was that the license was not renewed by Marvel because it wasn't profitable enough by their standards.  I believe MWP had at least one project close to completion that they weren't able to release because the license was pulled.



My understanding is that it was the other way around - they thought the agreement that they'd arranged with Marvel would be profitable, but after their first two releases sales numbers came in they realized it just wasn't going to make them the money needed to pay for the license.  So MWP dumped the Marvel license without producing the product they had in the pipeline.

The original link is dead, but here's the Internet Archive link to the blog post where they lay it out: Pipeline News



> And in Marvel news… the economics of licensing a tie-in product is always something we have to weigh carefully. We brokered an admittedly ambitious license with Marvel. Our first event, CIVIL WAR, was successful and well received, but it didn’t garner the level of sales necessary to sustain the rest of the line. We’ve learned from this and are taking a very different approach with the other licensed properties we’re bringing out to you in the next three years. We believe we created a great game. Those of you that have supported us have been terrific, and we appreciate you. But, unfortunately, we will not be bringing any new product out under the Marvel line. We know this affects our customers. Those that have pre-ordered Annihilation will receive a full refund or a credit worth 150% of their Annihilation order to use on existing or future product.


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## SteveC (Apr 12, 2022)

I think that the issue with the previous license was that MWP didn't have the staff to produce at the rate that Marvel needed them to. I also think the game itself was sort of a niche product and perhaps too different from what the market was looking for.
That's definitely not saying it was bad, just not what the mainstream RPG audience was looking for at that time.
This new version ... I'm really not sure. I think it seems to have moved too far in the other direction but that's based on a terribly small sampling. We'll obviously see more shortly.


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## Thomas Shey (Apr 12, 2022)

There are so many ways license contracts can be written, its hard to say.  But one way or another, with a Marvel game there's liable to be some big money involved somewhere in it by RPG industry standards, and that's a problem.


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## Micah Sweet (Apr 12, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Licenses are lost regardless of profits. Look at Cubicle 7 and them losing the license for The One Ring and Adventures in Middle-Earth when they were in the middle of making the 2nd edition of ToR and the big Moria boxed set. And those games, when combined, were quite profitable.



Absolutely. But, in the case of MHR I believe it was Marvel's profit concerns that were the problem.


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## Greg K (Apr 13, 2022)

SteveC said:


> I think that the issue with the previous license was that MWP didn't have the staff to produce at the rate that Marvel needed them to. I also think the game itself was sort of a niche product and perhaps too different from what the market was looking for.
> That's definitely not saying it was bad, just not what the mainstream RPG audience was looking for at that time.
> This new version ... I'm really not sure. I think it seems to have moved too far in the other direction but that's based on a terribly small sampling. We'll obviously see more shortly.



For myself, there was a lot to like about MHR, but I did have a couple of issues including the Event format as I have a strong dislike for the big Marvel Events. I know a few critics of MHR have said the Cortex Prime fixes the mechanical issues they had with the Doom Pool, but I don't know what the actual fixes are.


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## pemerton (Apr 13, 2022)

Greg K said:


> I did have a couple of issues including the Event format as I have a strong dislike for the big Marvel Events.



I ignored the Event format, but took bits and pieces out of the book to use in my own game. I think MHRP strongly supports scene-framing play without a prepared script. But it's good to have plenty of datafiles and ideas for framing individual scenes.


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## Morrus (Apr 13, 2022)

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Maybe. The license that C7 had was actually a sub-license from Sophisticated Games, who hold the actual license for ttrpgs using the LotR and Hobbit material, though Middle-Earth Enterprises still approved every book before it was released. And it has still never been publicly revealed what happened. I still wonder if it was because C7 was getting so heavy into all the Games Workshop licenses that Sophisticated felt C7 was not giving ToR enough attention and that triggered some clause in the contract, costing C7 the license regardless of actual profit. Or ME Ent was not happy with the additional lore being created for the game, same as when Iron Crown lost the license for making MERP.



Everybody always phrases these things as a publisher 'losing' the license, as though it's some kind of failure on their art. Sometimes it's the other way round. Cubicle 7 has said a number of times that it was their decision. (Other times, license terms just expire, though that wasn't the case here--a license might be for a finite period of time).


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## Enevhar Aldarion (Apr 13, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Everybody always phrases these things as a publisher 'losing' the license, as though it's some kind of failure on their art. Sometimes it's the other way round. Cubicle 7 has said a number of times that it was their decision. (Other times, license terms just expire, though that wasn't the case here--a license might be for a finite period of time).




True, but that one situation still feels so shady to me. For all we know, the guy who created the game, Francesco Nepitello, had a falling out with C7 and forced them to give up the license. But whatever the real reason was, at least they are all being professional and not being negative about each other. And we know you have experience with what happens with licensed properties and have authority to comment on stuff like this.


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