# So-and-so has [died/gotten sick/gotten divorced/grown a hangnail] posts



## PowerWordDumb (Sep 12, 2003)

This has probably been moaned-and-groaned about ad infinitum already, but it's really started to bug me, so here goes:

Far be it from me to attempt to water down the community aspect of ENWorld.  I value it as much as the rest of you folks do, believe me.  It means something that one can develop an impression of posters and have an impression of their personality and likes/dislikes to help understand their position on any given discussion.  Obviously some form of interaction beyond the strictest game-related discussion goes into building that community feeling, I recognize.  OT threads are a fact of life, and as long as they're somewhat related - stories of how you grew up with D&D, how it affected your life, etc - that's cool.

But the General RPG Discussions forum is filling up more and more with completely irrelevant threads about pretty much any topic that means anything to any of the members.  Posts about a member's health like Angelsboi I can understand - he's one of us and we care how he's doing.  Posts about somebody's country being attacked by terrorists I can also understand, because they're events of large magnitude that touch many people.

But how many posts do we need about entertainer X who's died, or politician Y who got stabbed, or friend-of-a-friend Z who got sick and had to blow his nose?  The way we're going, soon we'll have threads cluttering the forum whenever someone's dog does something cute, or their cat uses the litterbox, or their kid wins a spelling bee, or Ben and J-Lo get a divorce.  Yay for community.

Sure that stuff may be relevant to some members, but the General RPG Discussions forum isn't the right place for it.  It is after all about RPG discussions.  I realize there isn't any place better right now, and Meta isn't it either, so it's a tough thing - Can we get a "Yak Yak" forum thrown together for this?  Coming in every day and having to weed through the OT threads to find something of interest on what is primarily a gaming site is a little ridiculous.  Obviously the warning to hold off on OT posting if there were already a few on the front page has flown completely over peoples' heads.

Okay, rant over.  Thanks for listening!


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## PowerWordDumb (Sep 12, 2003)

I'll just add that I fully expect some "If you don't like it, don't read it" responses, and while they're at least half-valid, it's quite difficult sometimes tiptoeing around the OT threads to find the ones of value to me.

Yes, that's right - of value to me.  I grant completely they may be of value to others, but the part of my brain that wants things neat and tidy and sorted into their appropriate bins is holding sway today, hence the post.


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## Hand of Evil (Sep 12, 2003)

I feel your pain, at least you know where to put the post (no pun) and use the right tag.  

As a member I do post somethings that should not be posted but feel the need to get it off my chest, see my info highway post, the trick is posting to the right forum.  

People like to share with those they are closes too and if someone post something they feel is important I am honored they feel they can come to us.  I may not read every post but I will not turn my back to those that have something to say.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 12, 2003)

I'd like to agree with you man (and on most other days I'd agree) but I just posted to the Johnny Cash thread 

I could do without all of the WTC post, but as you pointed out in your post, I just don't read them.


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## Henry (Sep 12, 2003)

I don't mean to offend, PWD, but at last count, out of the first two pages in General Discussion, I see four OT unclosed posts of the type you described (the johnny cash/john ritter one, the Swedish FM stabbing, someone turning 30, and the WTC thread); the other posts I saw marked OT were pertaining directly to members of the forums. It can certainly seem like the boards are getting overrun, especially if a group of these threads hit at one time, but overall, 4 out of 50 aren't too bad.

Even still, we'll keep an eye on OT threads the next few days, because there is a LOT of stuff going on right now in the news (I'm surprised not to see a thread on Hurricane Isabel yet. ) If we get more than what we have now, we'll have to start reducing the amount of OT stuff coming up.


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## pogre (Sep 12, 2003)

I can dodge off-topic threads if they are labelled as such. The ones that get me are those with titles like Did Anyone Notice...

I open it assuming it to be an observation about gaming only to find it off-topic. I used a hypothetical title, because I am not here to offend anyone. I just want the OT tags please.


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## PowerWordDumb (Sep 12, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> I don't mean to offend, PWD, but at last count, out of the first two pages in General Discussion, I see four OT unclosed posts of the type you




It may very well be my imagination Henry, but I'll swear that yesterday afternoon there were at least six or seven OT threads on the front page - and some of them were waaaaaaay OT.  At times this morning I've counted either four or five.  Seeing new ones about Johnny Cash/Ritter this morning just made me blow a gasket.

Yeah, it happens, and I'm not calling for a revolution or a jihad or executions or anything  - just wanted to moan and groan uselessly without adding to the clutter in the General forum.

There's good people here, and I'm interested in what they've got going on in their lives, but only to a point.  Ultimately I'm here to read and post about gaming.  If there were a place for this stuff that'd be great, if not - I'll just try to turn a blind eye to some of the more understandable stuff.


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## Desdichado (Sep 12, 2003)

Keep in mind, too, that a lot fewer threads per page are viewable now.  Four or five OT threads on the first page, when there's only 20-30 threads visible at a time, is quite a few.


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## Darkness (Sep 12, 2003)

Henry said:
			
		

> someone turning 30



Ah, thanks for reminding me, mate. I meant to move that thread to Meta, where birthday threads (even self-started ones) ought to go...
*swoosh* There - better.


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## Teflon Billy (Sep 12, 2003)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> ....Seeing new ones about Johnny Cash...this morning just made me blow a gasket...




might want to avoid that one then, cause I posted an epic


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## PowerWordDumb (Sep 12, 2003)

Teflon Billy said:
			
		

> might want to avoid that one then, cause I posted an epic




How can I possibly get mad at you when there's already a second thread on the same subject?  

Besides, with cracked ideas like what you tossed out in the "heads in a box" thread, I can't possibly stay mad at you - your sense of humour reminds me too much of my own.  You just have a way of expressing it without offending everyone in the joint - a skill at which I am less adept.


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## Darkness (Sep 12, 2003)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> How can I possibly get mad at you when there's already a second thread on the same subject?



Merged...


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## Heretic Apostate (Sep 13, 2003)

I think PWD has something of a point.  The mods went through a day or two ago, locking thread after thread, so they've probably dropped a few pages by now.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 13, 2003)

PowerWordDumb said:
			
		

> The way we're going, soon we'll have threads cluttering the forum whenever... their cat uses the litterbox.... Yay for community.




Piratecat doesn't like us talking about him going to the bathroom.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Sep 13, 2003)

I don't mean to be a pest, but, can't you just not read them? Most are marked as such. I mean, there are both on and off topic threads I have no interest in, I read the subject line and ignore the ones I don't want to read. 

I guess I just don't see what the big deal is. I have pretty slow internet service too, and it doesn't really bog me down or anything.

Different strokes I guess.


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## jdavis (Sep 13, 2003)

I got no problem with off topic threads, heck I like off topic threads, after the 27,000 "3.5 will destroy the world" threads there were floating around it's a nice change, but I do have two things that do bother me about them. 1. They never seem to make it to the right forum 2. There always seems to be two or three threads on the same subject floating around. Those two seem to be related too as many of the multiple topic threads happen when a general thread gets moved to the proper forum where there is already a existing thread. Maybe if people would just pay a little attention to what is already on the board and where things go a lot of the "bothered by Off Topic" off topic post would go away too. Shame there is no way to make people's keyboards deliver a mild shock when topics are posted to the wrong forums


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## Cedric (Sep 13, 2003)

Personally...I would like to see a General Forum up there next to General RPG Discussions. Honestly, this has become so much of a community, that I think having a place, near the top very visible, for our day to day discussions that are either off the rpg topic or only loosely related to it would be a nice addition to the forum. 

Cedric


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## Darrin Drader (Sep 13, 2003)

My feeling is that gamers have a uniquely gamer perspective on many issues and its good to talk about them. I know this has been discussed to death and ultimately rejected already, but I would be in favor of an Off Topic forum. Heck, I would probably spend quite a bit more time there than in the RPG General discussion forum. I feel it would satisfy the people who just want to chat and those who want to discuss nothing but gaming.

But since there isn't such a forum here, I agree with the sentiment that if you don't like them, don't read them. I also agree that if you are about to post something OT, you should first check to see if a similar thread already exists.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 13, 2003)

I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate (great movie!) about the Off-Topic Forum idea.

For one thing, bandwidth issues are already a very big thing here at ENWorld.  Recent steps have made the boards run a little more smoothly, but the reality is that as the site grows in popularity (do we have numbers?) we're going to keep banging up against this wall.  An off-topic forum, while interesting, might make this happen faster, since I imagine that would be one of the most popularly used forums.

Another problem I have with it is that at least one site already exists, started specifcally, AFAIK, because people wanted to post off topic stuff.  That would be Nutkinland.  There's no need to have it here if places already exist where off-topic posting can occur.

A third problem is that of moderation.  IME, you have a lot more cases where moderation is needed with an off-topic forum.  A lot of this would be because of politics and religion, which many people will assume they should be able to post about, and it's their right to post on whatever they choose.  I'd like to think that ENWorld is different, but realistically the popularity of Nutkinland suggests otherwise (assuming my second point is indeed correct).

Finally, and it has been said, if you don't like posts, don't read them.  I will concur, at times I've found it annoying as well, but unfortunately there's no filtering system set in place (that I know of) that allows a user to automagically weed OT threads so they don't show up.  I would imagine it would use a fair bit of bandwidth anyway, since I see parallels to the search function.


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## reapersaurus (Sep 13, 2003)

I just want to throw my voice in support of PowerWordDumb's initial post.

(just deleted my unpopular opinion)

I just think there's too much OT stuff, and I do include member-personal-threads in that total.


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## Darkness (Sep 13, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate (great movie!) about the Off-Topic Forum idea.
> 
> For one thing, bandwidth issues are already a very big thing here at ENWorld. Recent steps have made the boards run a little more smoothly, but the reality is that as the site grows in popularity (do we have numbers?) we're going to keep banging up against this wall. An off-topic forum, while interesting, might make this happen faster, since I imagine that would be one of the most popularly used forums.



 Oh yeah, if rpg.net is any indication; Tangency is like twice the size of Open.


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## PowerWordDumb (Sep 13, 2003)

I'll be the first to admit there's likely no real easy answer (and no, "don't read them" isn't one either), but I'm of the opinion you don't point out a problem without at least suggesting some possible form of solution.  I'm not wedded to the idea of an OT forum, it was just the first possible solution that came to mind.

Granted, an offtopic forum may create more issues than it's worth, as might filters, but there's got to be some way to maintain the community aspects of ENWorld without having to wade through OT threads up to your neck in the General *RPG* Discussion forum.  Posts about how much gamer-chic you wear is one thing.  A boatload of posts about random public personality X's trials and tribulations is entirely another.

I'm as open to ideas as anyone.  Must be something constructive and non-draconian we can do, if even just deciding to show a tiny little bit of restraint in our posting habits.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 13, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I'm gonna play Devil's Advocate (great movie!) about the Off-Topic Forum idea.
> 
> For one thing, bandwidth issues are already a very big thing here at ENWorld. Recent steps have made the boards run a little more smoothly, but the reality is that as the site grows in popularity (do we have numbers?) we're going to keep banging up against this wall. An off-topic forum, while interesting, might make this happen faster, since I imagine that would be one of the most popularly used forums.




Adding some flavor of OT Forum is the mootest point ever. Morrus and Eric have said time and again why they don't want this. IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN.

You do bring up a good point about the limitations of the site's operations.  But there's an alternative to altering an aspect of the boards that make it so great (IMHO, but apparently Morrus's HO and Eric's HO too) if we want to have boards that work better. Why not push for a Community Supporter subscription drive, like the ones on PBS but with fewer program interruptions ? This is something that would make the entire site run better and faster and we would not have to change _one iota of its content_. Even if such a "pledge drive" only netted 100 new Supporters, that would be like, what, $3000? That's a new server, right there. 

How can we go about this? 

*Slap a puchase link right there at the top of the thread list.* I know that I kinda had to go hunting for a link when I signed up for a CSA. It should not be that hard.

How about a slight price break, maybe to $30 or $25 (For a Limited Time Only, of course)? Knock a few bucks off and it might net a few people who were on the fence. 

Tell people what EN World will do with the increased revenue and exactly how it will help the site. 

Community Supporters get one or two nice perks for signing up. Would vBulletin support more perks added in? Maybe free up more space for .sigs. I know that I wouldn't turn down a freebie PDF or three as well.

Net result: More proud members. More revenue. Better site infrastructure. I'm not the EN World accountant, but this sure feels like a no-lose proposition. How about it, Morrus?


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## jdavis (Sep 13, 2003)

As much as I love reading OT threads I would hate to see a OT forum, there are plenty of forums here now and many of the off topic post are only off topic because they are posted in general (such as the Johnny Cash post really wouldn't be OT if it was in Movies & TV and most personal posts probably belong in Meta). On the first two pages of General right now there are only three OT threads and one has already been moved to computers and software, this isn't that big a problem that we need a whole new forum. Just get people to post in the right forums, besides I'm sure the moderators wouldn't mind not having to move threads around all the time.


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## Tarrasque Wrangler (Sep 13, 2003)

Yeah, what the fryman said.  Although I think Johnny Cash would be OT for Movies and TV, and I think Meta's gone offtrack enough with the birthday posts.  I thought meta was topics about the boards, but it seems to be a dumping ground for oddities too.

And to the folks who think that an OT forum would make General run faster: I think that the "peer pressure" that keeps OT posts to about 10% of the total (mod or admin care to check what the actual percentage is?  I'm eyeballing here, but I think my estimate's on the high side) would evaporate if you gave it it's own forum.  As Darkness said above, look at Tangency on RPG.net.  Unless you gave it it's own server, that one forum's just going to slow down every other forum too.


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 13, 2003)

I can see this on both sides, if your going to cut out OT post then pretty much all of them need to be cut out.  When you start looking at censorship (even in posts) it means someone has final say, which I don't have a problem with, but someone’s going to have to work more or someone is going to end up looking like the bad guy.  Another non RPG board I go to has a zero tolerance for OT, again I have no issues with this, but the main thread theirs one guys that patrols it pretty much 24/7 and is very disliked cause of his job...  Poor guy rarely posts for anything other than for his job cause of that policy.

Now giving a total off topic forum is just a horrible idea as there would be the temptation for many to try and fill it up.

I really just suggest the status quo, and ignore the ones you don't want to read, as this is a community and will always act as one.


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## William Ronald (Sep 15, 2003)

I was initially going to create a thread for an idea that I have, but saw this thread.  (No need to create threads needlessly.)

One possible solution to some of the OT posts would be a Community Forum.  As an example of how it might be described, here is a sample tag line:  "Posts on events in the lives of your fellow board members.  A place for various announcements. No political or religious discussion please." 

This might provide many of the OT posts a home where members can check on various announcements. It would at least cut down on some complaints about various OT threads.  (I don't really have a problem with OT threads, per se.  I am offering a possible solution to what some people see as a problem.)  An advantage of a Community forum is that it might cut down on some of the complaints.  (I have no problem with trying to be supportive to my fellow board members in the General RPG forum. I would continue to be supportive even if the messages are posted somewhere else.)

I don't know if this would really make the moderators work any easier, but I have seen some things that would fit well in a community forum. OT posts are to be expected.  I tried posting about a few OT stuff in plots and places (real world stuff that can be used as plot hooks), but the thread never took off.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Sep 15, 2003)

I don't really understand why the NFL and other real world sports stuff is still up, yet other OT stuff gets closed/ moved, etc?


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 15, 2003)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I don't really understand why the NFL and other real world sports stuff is still up, yet other OT stuff gets closed/ moved, etc?



Probably cause it's only an issue on Sunday and it quickly fades from the front page by Monday morning...  Only about 20 more weeks of football though...   

Are you sure threads have been closed and not just moved?


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 15, 2003)

I think a big part of reducing off-topic threads, wrong forum posts, and improper tagging is simply to get a hammer and bludgeon people over the head.




			
				Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> I don't really understand why the NFL and other real world sports stuff is still up, yet other OT stuff gets closed/ moved, etc?




Well, asumming you're talking about yours and Arthur's threads that were moved, I presume it's because those are about the forums and their members, and thus belonged in Meta in the first place.  I mean, they don't write those forum descriptions for nothing.  The NFL stuff isn't about the forums, or members, and thus is OT in any forum.  Thus, it stays in General.

Now, that's just my interpretation, and I'm not a moderator.  I understand the frustration that posts meant to further the sense of community are moved when less-OT posts aren't.  Personally, I don't understand why sports stuff is allowed to stay myself either - there are whole other websites devoted to that, and certainly Nutkinland if nothing else.  But again, I'm not a moderator, or site owner, and it's basically the call of the mods and Morrus as to what goes and stays.


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## Dinkeldog (Sep 15, 2003)

With the smaller number of threads shown per page, expect threads appropriate to another forum to be moved more diligently than before.


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## Piratecat (Sep 15, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> I presume it's because those are about the forums and their members, and thus belonged in Meta in the first place.  I mean, they don't write those forum descriptions for nothing.  The NFL stuff isn't about the forums, or members, and thus is OT in any forum.  Thus, it stays in General.




This is indeed correct. I tried to state this explicitly when I moved threads yesterday, explaining why each one got shifted. Threads that are about the boards or the members have a specific place; the occasional thread on sports doesn't, so they end up in General.

Remember, guys, we don't move threads to be jerks or to mess with people. I'd just as soon not move _any_ threads, because it's a pain.  We do this because we try to keep threads in the forums they belong in. That way people know where to find them. As a pleasant byproduct, this sort of organization staves off hideous and eternal  chaos.


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## Tom Cashel (Sep 15, 2003)

Always with the chaos.

Implication of order = expansion of chaos.
Expansion of chaos = implication of order.
Box of Mallomars = a chocolatey-mallowy-graham-crackery experience.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Sep 15, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> This is indeed correct. I tried to state this explicitly when I moved threads yesterday, explaining why each one got shifted. Threads that are about the boards or the members have a specific place; the occasional thread on sports doesn't, so they end up in General.




For the record, I wasn't talking about MY gallery thread. I know that was something to do with the boards and I was actually going to put it in Meta, but the regular Gallery thread had been going on the General board for weeks, so I figured it was ok. 

I was talking about news stories, people asking where they could find things and other such off topic posts. Just wondered what made the NFL posts more OK?

I should also note that I don't really care. I don't care about sports, hence I don't look at those threads.

I was just curious. 

There's also a thread about someone looking for Pasta recipes or something that was on the first page the other day from last December or something. I was also confused as to why that was still open.


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## Piratecat (Sep 15, 2003)

OT threads aren't prohibited from General. Heck, some of them are fine! It's only when we're getting flooded by them that we usually start closing ones.

And your assumption about the Gallery thread was a very valid one; I would have assumed the same thing.


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 15, 2003)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> For the record, I wasn't talking about MY gallery thread.




My bad, I sorry.


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## Djeta Thernadier (Sep 15, 2003)

LightPhoenix said:
			
		

> My bad, I sorry.




S'ok. I hope I didn't sound snippy


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## Brother Shatterstone (Sep 15, 2003)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> As a pleasant byproduct, this sort of organization staves off hideous and eternal  chaos.




Piratecat, you know I don't think I ever saw you as a member of the Lawful alignment before...   

Be careful are you might suffer a permanent alignment shift…


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## LightPhoenix (Sep 15, 2003)

Djeta Thernadier said:
			
		

> S'ok. I hope I didn't sound snippy




Compared to the number of times I come off as snippy?  

Nah.


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