# WotC Layoffs - Rob Heinsoo, Logan Bonner, and Chris Sims



## Morrus

An anonymous source tells me that WotC had it's pre-Christmas layoffs yesterday - and that *Rob Heinsoo*, *Logan Bonner*, and *Chris Sims* were among the casualties.

Please treat this as rumour until confirmed, although the source is one I trust.


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## ExploderWizard

Given what has happened in the past this is sadly not shocking.


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## ggroy

Any word on whether these gentlemen will be replaced with new full-time hires, or is their workload being taken over by freelancers?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

I suppose they use dice to determine who goes? 

And why pre-Christmas? Note that there is any good time for it, but why Christmas exactly? Do they avoid giving some Christmas bonus? Or because they already got one?


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## Morrus

ggroy said:


> Any word on whether these gentlemen will be replaced with new full-time hires, or is their workload being taken over by freelancers?




I don't know any more than the above, I'm afraid.  But WotC does this every year.

I'm in two minds about the timing - on the one hand it makes for a sucky Christmas for those affected.  On the other hand, I guess it's better to be laid off _before_ you spend all that money rather than immediately after Christmas.


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## catsclaw227

Are the people that have been laid off by WoTC usually converted into freelancers and generally continue to work on WOTC products?  

I can't recall who has been part of past WOTC layoffs and if they did any ongoing freelance work for WOTC.

And don't then then hire again after the turn of the year?  I wonder if this is about the ending of a fiscal year and showing lower expenditures for shareholders....


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## ExploderWizard

New Company Policy:

WOTC will henceforth be known as The Dread Pirate Roberts.

All employees upon acceptance of said employment must legally change thier name to Wesley.


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## Umbran

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> And why pre-Christmas?




I would guess that the WotC fiscal year matches or is close to the calendar year - this timing would then give them a couple of weeks to do knowledge transfer, and get the people off the books before the end of the fiscal year.


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## DaveyJones

Happy Christmas?


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## Mouseferatu

Damn. This is just...

I've really enjoyed working with, and have utmost respect for, everyone on that list.  If this is accurate, I really, _really_ hope they're all able to bounce back.


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## vagabundo

These kind of layoffs make for a sucky atmosphere...

Commiserations and hopefully this will turn up trumps - in time - for all those affected.


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## The_Baldman

Mouseferatu said:


> Damn. This is just...
> 
> I've really enjoyed working with, and have utmost respect for, everyone on that list.  If this is accurate, I really, _really_ hope they're all able to bounce back.




It's what sucks more and more each year as you become friends with more and more people at Wizards. The notices suck.


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## ggroy

Umbran said:


> I would guess that the WotC fiscal year matches or is close to the calendar year - this timing would then give them a couple of weeks to do knowledge transfer, and get the people off the books before the end of the fiscal year.




For last year's 10-K filed by Hasbro, it represents the fiscal year that ended on December 28, 2008.

HASBRO INC 10-K (Annual Reports) 2009-02-25


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## Varianor Abroad

ExploderWizard said:


> Given what has happened in the past this is sadly not shocking.




No. It is however still a sad event for those losing jobs and an example of the poor quality of management at Hasbro that they consider people this replaceable. How many executives that don't add value to the games themselves were laid off?


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## Dragonhelm

Umbran said:


> I would guess that the WotC fiscal year matches or is close to the calendar year - this timing would then give them a couple of weeks to do knowledge transfer, and get the people off the books before the end of the fiscal year.




And before year-end bonuses.

This has happened several times in the past.  Some have gone on to be WotC freelancers, some have moved on to other ventures.

Of course, I'm still shocked that Jeff Grubb is gone.


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## El Mahdi

I know it's not just WotC, but damn...rpg's are a just a brutal industry.  For those working in it, you have got to have some serious love for the hobby...and some seriously _Big Brass Ones_.

I salute all of you in this industry for loving it enough to make the hobby products we all love (and probably have a bit of an addiction for).

Best wishes for Rob Heinsoo, Logan Bonner, and Chris Sims (if the rumor is true).  May you land on your feet, be able to continue to be a part of this wonderful hobby you've all contributed so much to, and have a very Merry Christmas.


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## Charwoman Gene

One of my "If I ran the world" or "If I had a humongulous pile of money" schemes is to buy D&D and start a foundation.


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## Obryn

Damn, that's quite a list....

I mean, after the past 5 or 6 years, I'm not surprised when WotC lays off people I'd consider vital, but nevertheless...  I was wondering who'd get the ol' Christmas Boot this year.  Sucks, guys.

-O


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## Dragonhelm

El Mahdi said:


> I know it's not just WotC, but damn...rpg's are a just a brutal industry.  For those working in it, you have got to have some serious love for the hobby...and some seriously _Big Brass Ones_.




Tracy Hickman once gave me some good advice regarding game design and writing in general.

"Don't quit your day job."


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## Anand

Charwoman Gene said:


> One of my "If I ran the world" or "If I had a humongulous pile of money" schemes is to buy D&D and start a foundation.




Wow. My feeling as well. I also wish everyone can bouce quickly and smoothly. I loved Rob Heinsoo work.

Cheers.


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## MerricB

I'm so sorry to hear that those three are no longer at Wizards. They've all done great work and they'll be missed.


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## filthgrinder

Do we have any sort of confirmation on this? It fits the pattern of lay offs, but I'm going to be a doubting thomas until we get confirmation from a named source.


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## Tuft

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I suppose they use dice to determine who goes?
> 
> And why pre-Christmas? Note that there is any good time for it, but why Christmas exactly? Do they avoid giving some Christmas bonus? Or because they already got one?




Probably because the Christmas season is the absolutely most important season for a toy/game company like Hasbro. Once the retailer pre-orders are in for the season, it's time to cut down until it is time to gear up again for next year's season. 

And similarly, since it is those pre-orders that make or break the year, it's also at that time that you can evaluate the year and decide on how high your stake for the next one is going to be.


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## ggroy

Tuft said:


> Probably because the Christmas season is the absolutely most important season for a toy/game company like Hasbro. Once the retailer pre-orders are in for the season, it's time to cut down until it is time to gear up again for next year's season.
> 
> And similarly, since it is those pre-orders that make or break the year, it's also at that time that you can evaluate the year and decide on how high your stake for the next one is going to be.




Wonder how well "black friday" turned out this year for Hasbro and other toy companies.


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## Aristotle

Most companies have to downsize now and again, but the trend at WoTC has not set right with me since just after 3rd edition launched and a lot of great people got cut out. Luckily, for these newest names, their time at WoTC often gives them enough clout within the industry to allow them to find or create work for themselves.

I stopped collecting 4th Edition months ago, after having been a fan early on, and have no intention of playing again. I have a lot of reasons for that, but the way WoTC treats their talent... that was a factor for me. I'd rather not support a game or company that is run like that.


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## Haffrung Helleyes

*Well*

If you want to do something for these people, support Paizo -- they seem to hire quite a few victims of the annual WoTC layoffs.

Ken


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## Shemeska

ggroy said:


> Wonder how well "black friday" turned out this year for Hasbro and other toy companies.




If there were to be any, I was expecting any layoffs to come in January, pending the results of holiday sales. This came early and it sucks for all involved. 

Hopefully we'll see them picked up by other companies or continue on as freelancers.


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## jaerdaph

Sorry to hear about anyone losing their job. 

The timing as always sucks (Christmas etc.), but it is the end of the fiscal year for many companies, which is why these things usually happen now.  

I wish them the best of luck.


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## hexgrid

Given the history, Christmas must be a pretty tense time of year at the WotC offices. It would suck to work in that kind of environment.


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## filthgrinder

Just searching around for some kind of confirmation of this rumor, I found this:

If you are in Seattle, you can go down to the Barnes and Noble and ask Rob himself about it...
Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (PH Holiday Bundle Signing)


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## Matt James

gah!   I just got done working with Chris on a project (albleit a small one for Dragon).  This is terrible news if true.


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## Khur

It's true. 

Maybe there's more to say later, but right now I have a Dark Sun game to prepare for.


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## Matt James

That stinks


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## Mouseferatu

Damn, Chris. I mean, I suspected it was accurate, but it still sucks to hear it.


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## Frylock

I constantly hear people complaing that the industry won't let them in, but this shows that it's not a very big industry.  Why they do this during the holidays is the bigger question. It might have to do with the timing of Hasbro's fiscal year.  Either way, it sucks to hear that people are out of work.


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## Azgulor

hexgrid said:


> Given the history, Christmas must be a pretty tense time of year at the WotC offices. It would suck to work in that kind of environment.




Having worked in an environment where bi-annual layoffs could be predicted almost like clockwork, I can confirm that yes, it does suck to be in that kind of environment.

Hell, I don't even play 4e, but the fact that this continues to be a part of the WotC business plan just pisses me off.


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## Pour

As a fellow victim of unemployment, my condolences. But I believe all three of you guys will find new things quickly! Your track records speak for themselves.


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## Nymrohd

Commiserations In the current climate, even healthy businesses that are doing well still downsize if they can afford to do so I'm afraid. Hope everyone can bounce back reasonably fast.


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## Drkfathr1

I guess the Rouse got out while the gettin' was good. 

I really couldn't imagine working for WoTC knowing that layoffs were coming every Christmas. 

As others have said, this just gives some of us even more reason to no longer support WotC.


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## Tarrl

Very, very disappointing!!!  :O(


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## Kzach

Everyone is assuming this is some nasty corporate stratagem cooked up at the last minute to punish the innocent and all that but have we ever actually heard the real story behind these lay-offs?

I mean, as far as I'm aware, we know nothing about them. For all we know, it could've been simply their end of contract and something they have known was coming ever since they signed the contract. They could be getting redundancy pay-offs and freelance contracts.

All I'm saying is that we don't really know anything other than they're no longer working as WotC employees.


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## Banshee16

Morrus said:


> I don't know any more than the above, I'm afraid.  But WotC does this every year.
> 
> I'm in two minds about the timing - on the one hand it makes for a sucky Christmas for those affected.  On the other hand, I guess it's better to be laid off _before_ you spend all that money rather than immediately after Christmas.




Having been through it last year myself, I can generally say that it sucks either way.  I'm not sure that getting laid off before Christmas really helps with respect to saving money though.  I mean, Christmas is one of the most stressful times of year to begin with, and one of the times with the most suicides, heart attacks, etc.  And to be laid off on top of that just adds extra stress.  Plus, not many companies are hiring in the month or two before Christmas, and as a result, it makes it very difficult to find a replacement position.  So you lose your job, you still don't want to disappoint your kids by canceling Christmas presents, you're stressed about the holidays, stressed because you're out of work, and other companies out there aren't hiring, because *they* are focused on Christmas, and most new ventures, including hiring, are put off until the New Year (which means you're often stuck until about mid-way through January before you can do much about being out of work).

Not cool.  It's a despicable practice, and I can empathize for Rob and the others.  It's especially despicable when the executives then get bonuses because they found ways to cut costs and save money.

Banshee


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## Banshee16

Nymrohd said:


> Commiserations In the current climate, even healthy businesses that are doing well still downsize if they can afford to do so I'm afraid. Hope everyone can bounce back reasonably fast.




It's too bad that downsizing only actually improves a business maybe 30% of the time.  30% of the time, things don't get better or worse...just more of the same, and 30% of the time, your remaining staff are even more overworked, more stressed, performance and customer satisfaction suffer, and the business is weakened.

Banshee


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## Drammattex

Double post?


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## ggroy

Banshee16 said:


> It's too bad that downsizing only actually improves a business maybe 30% of the time.  30% of the time, things don't get better or worse...just more of the same, and 30% of the time, your remaining staff are even more overworked, more stressed, performance and customer satisfaction suffer, and the business is weakened.




It looks like the remaining overworked WotC full-time D&D designers left are Mike Mearls, James Wyatt, Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell working on the following 4E titles in 2010:

Mike Mearls - Psionic Power, Demonomicon, Monster Manual 3, PH Races: Tieflings, Hammerfast, Player's Handbook 3

Bruce Cordell - Dark Sun Creature Catalog

James Wyatt - D&D Player's Strategy Guide, PH Races: Dragonborn

Rich Baker - Dark Sun Campaign Guide, Dark Sun Creature Catalog, Marauders of the Dune Sea, Martial Power 2


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## Umbran

Drkfathr1 said:


> I really couldn't imagine working for WoTC knowing that layoffs were coming every Christmas.




As I understand it, most places that have a strongly scheduled budget also have yearly layoffs as that budget year closes.  That they come before Christmas is not really all that much worse than coming any other time of year.

The way the economy is running, where on average it takes six months or more to get a new position, they could have been laid off back in September and still not have something new by X-mas.  So, really, the exact timing isn't as bad as one might imagine.


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## Matt James

Drkfathr1 said:


> I really couldn't imagine working for WoTC knowing that layoffs were coming every Christmas.
> 
> As others have said, this just gives some of us even more reason to no longer support WotC.




We're not sure this didn't come from Hasbro.


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## messy

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> If you want to do something for these people, support Paizo -- they seem to hire quite a few victims of the annual WoTC layoffs.
> 
> Ken




that's good. paizo seems to be on the right track.

did they hire david noonan after he was laid off last year? whatever happened to dave? he deserves to have a job with a gaming company...

messy


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## Drammattex

Raising a glass to everyone's glorious achievements while at WotC. All of you have touched my life and my many, many games with your talent. 

And one extra toast to Rob for his work on the D&D Miniatures game. You're a heck of a guy, a hell of a designer, and I loved interviewing you at Gen Con. To you, sir!


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## Drkfathr1

Matt James said:


> We're not sure this didn't come from Hasbro.




True. Although we have been told time and time again that Hasbro doesn't exercise that level of involvement in WoTC's management.


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## Plane Sailing

Stinky news for the guys laid off. Others have already said it, but I will too. Sucky of a company to lay people off at Christmas. Sounds like the people who could watch 'Scrooge' and not get it at all.

:-(


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## Turtlejay

Haffrung Helleyes said:


> If you want to do something for these people, support Paizo -- they seem to hire quite a few victims of the annual WoTC layoffs.
> 
> Ken




Wait, what?  That sounds backwards to me.  If your favorite drinking hole has to let one of their folks go, it is because money is tight.  I'd imagine this applies to business on a larger scale, only more cutthroat.  I'd say if you want your favorite designers to have jobs, buy stuff with their names on the cover, not stuff from their competition.  Am I crazy?

Jay


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## Matt James

Turtlejay said:


> Wait, what?  That sounds backwards to me.  If your favorite drinking hole has to let one of their folks go, it is because money is tight.  I'd imagine this applies to business on a larger scale, only more cutthroat.  I'd say if you want your favorite designers to have jobs, buy stuff with their names on the cover, not stuff from their competition.  Am I crazy?
> 
> Jay




I'm with your line of thinking.  I don't for a minute think WotC/Hasbro did this out of random malice.


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## Frylock

*Huh?*



Drkfathr1 said:


> As others have said, this just gives some of us even more reason to no longer support WotC.




That would probably be short-sighted.  I'm sure they don't enjoy laying off employees.  When they (or almost anyone) do, it's usually out of necessity because they aren't getting enough "support" from their fan base for a wide variety of reasons.  Using that as the *motivation* to pull your support is counter-productive.  In any case, forming an opinion one way or the other without the facts is always reckless.

EDIT: I was ninja'd several times before I posted this reply, which is good.  I'm glad many people do have a grip on the realities of industry.  I will also add that whether this came from WotC or Hasbro is irrelevant.  I'd also be shaking in my shoes if I were on the WotC payroll.  Personally, I wouldn't be concerned with who was going to fire me, but rather that I was going to be fired at all.  That seems to be a regular thing there.


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## Banshee16

ggroy said:


> It looks like the remaining overworked WotC full-time D&D designers left are Mike Mearls, James Wyatt, Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell working on the following 4E titles in 2010:
> 
> Mike Mearls - Psionic Power, Demonomicon, Monster Manual 3, PH Races: Tieflings, Hammerfast, Player's Handbook 3
> 
> Bruce Cordell - Dark Sun Creature Catalog
> 
> James Wyatt - D&D Player's Strategy Guide, PH Races: Dragonborn
> 
> Rich Baker - Dark Sun Campaign Guide, Dark Sun Creature Catalog, Marauders of the Dune Sea, Martial Power 2




Eek, they're going to be busy boys...

Still sucks for those now looking for jobs right before Christmas.

Banshee


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## Morrus

Another name to add to the list (from the same source): *Stephen Radney-McFarland*.


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## wedgeski

messy said:


> did they hire david noonan after he was laid off last year? whatever happened to dave? he deserves to have a job with a gaming company...



He's working on Aion.


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## Banshee16

Turtlejay said:


> Wait, what?  That sounds backwards to me.  If your favorite drinking hole has to let one of their folks go, it is because money is tight.  I'd imagine this applies to business on a larger scale, only more cutthroat.  I'd say if you want your favorite designers to have jobs, buy stuff with their names on the cover, not stuff from their competition.  Am I crazy?
> 
> Jay




There's different ways to look at it.  Guess it depends on how you like the company doing the layoffs.  Sometimes getting rid of staff who're popular with customers will have unintended effects.....like losing customers.

At the point that these guys have been laid off, buying books with their names on them from WotC does nothing to help them with WotC....they've already been laid off at that point.  And if you like what that writer did, why would you ever support the company who got rid of them?  That's kind of a backward way to look at it, isn't it?

I know when I was laid off, the company lost customers who liked me, and were disappointed I was in the layoff group.  I can't fault them for leaving my former employer, and the display of loyalty can be reassuring when you've just had your feet knocked out from under you.

These guys have accomplished enough for WotC, in terms of what they've written, that I do think they'll be able to either find positions, or freelance jobs.  The statement to support Paizo is (I think) simply recognition that Paizo tends to hire people WotC has gotten rid of, so, if you happen to like Paizo, buy their products, because they keep hiring people you used to like who were at WotC.  Buying Paizo book X won't necessarily help ex-WotC employee Y who was just laid off.....but if Paizo is doing well, and they keep hiring WotC people as WotC gets rid of them, well, when they are ready to fill their next position, your favourite writer might have a better than average chance of getting a position.  I'm pretty sure that was the rationale behind the suggestion.

Banshee


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## kenmarable

Kzach said:


> Everyone is assuming this is some nasty corporate stratagem cooked up at the last minute to punish the innocent and all that but have we ever actually heard the real story behind these lay-offs?
> 
> I mean, as far as I'm aware, we know nothing about them. For all we know, it could've been simply their end of contract and something they have known was coming ever since they signed the contract. They could be getting redundancy pay-offs and freelance contracts.
> 
> All I'm saying is that we don't really know anything other than they're no longer working as WotC employees.



Of course we don't know the full details in this instance, but in the annual layoffs pretty much since 3e came out 9 years ago, those who have spoken have said it was sudden and unexpected like layoffs tend to be everywhere.

I'm not sure if he was in the Christmas layoffs or not, but the only case of it not being a surprise that I have heard was Sean Reynolds who was planning on quitting since he was moving and they told him "Uh... how about a layoff instead? You'll get some severance."

Anyone have time to do some digging and see if this is annual? I know it sure feels like it's been every single year since 2000, but my Google Fu is failing me in verifying which years might have been layoff free.


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## fireinthedust

I have enjoyed the products of each of these designers.  4e is a great product that has and continues to have a firm place at my gaming table.  Poeple who've never gamed outside of 2e or even just Fable are doing their characters on my laptop CB and moving minis around with the best of them.  It's taken a lot of weight off my shoulders as GM, and brought my group together into a tightly knit collective.  

Please keep writing for 4e!

Please take some time to come to Toronto and run some games for me and my friends!

I know I'll be using my gift certificates this year, and keeping an eye out for books you lot have written.   ...I'd likely have picked them up anyway, but now I'll make a point of it.  

For sure it'd be good to read blogs by you folks, on gaming and other topics like game design, etc.


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## Jason Bulmahn

As I have said in previous years...

This sucks. If any of the folks affected are reading this, you have my sympathies.. and offers of a free beer or two the next time I see you.

Jason Bulmahn


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## Haffrung Helleyes

"if Paizo is doing well, and they keep hiring WotC people as WotC gets rid of them, well, when they are ready to fill their next position, your favourite writer might have a better than average chance of getting a position. I'm pretty sure that was the rationale behind the suggestion."


Yes, that was the idea behind my suggestion.  

Also, Hasbro isn't exactly broke.  Their net revenues (after expenses ) were over 3 BILLION dollars last year.  They have a share buyback plan whose purpose is to "return excess cash to its shareholders through share repurchases and dividends".  

Ken


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## MortalPlague

My condolences... I hope everyone involved lands on their feet.


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## Riley

"The sackings will continue until morale improves!"

This modern version of WOTC sounds like a terrible company to work for.  My sympathies to the latest victims of the revolving door at Wizards.


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## Dragonblade

Aristotle said:


> I stopped collecting 4th Edition months ago, after having been a fan early on, and have no intention of playing again. I have a lot of reasons for that, but the way WoTC treats their talent... that was a factor for me. I'd rather not support a game or company that is run like that.




There is nothing evil or immoral about a layoff. Of course it sucks for those affected. I won't deny that. I have been restructured out of a position before. But if a company can't control costs because they of some misguided belief that they should never let anyone go, they will eventually go under and then EVERYONE loses their jobs. How is that somehow a more desirous result?

Not buying WotC products will have the exact opposite result from what you want. Lower sales only results in more employees being laid off. If you truly want WotC not to lay people off, to hire more people, and pay better, you should be buying all the 4e product you can.


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## Umbran

kenmarable said:


> Of course we don't know the full details in this instance, but in the annual layoffs pretty much since 3e came out 9 years ago, those who have spoken have said it was sudden and unexpected like layoffs tend to be everywhere.




Well, if they have been doing this every year (I did a quick search of threads here, and they don't confirm or deny that, I'd have to dig further), then by now it should not be unexpected.  

As for those saying how bad it is to lay off at X-mas, allow me to add the following thought:

WotC has a budget, and a fiscal year.  If they know they must cut people to meet next years budget, cutting them as close to the deadline as possible keeps them on payroll as long as possible, and allows their severance and unemployment benefits to last as long beyond the holidays as possible.  In this economy, every month they stay on the payroll is another month of possible improvement in the general economic situation, making their getting new jobs that much more likely.

So, one might quibble that having a fiscal year that ends with the calendar year necessitates cutting now, as opposed to some other time.  But, given that deadline, it seems to me that waiting until the last moment really is doing as well by those employees as possible.


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## Darrin Drader

Frylock said:


> That would probably be short-sighted.  I'm sure they don't enjoy laying off employees.  When they (or almost anyone) do, it's usually out of necessity because they aren't getting enough "support" from their fan base for a wide variety of reasons.  Using that as the *motivation* to pull your support is counter-productive.  In any case, forming an opinion one way or the other without the facts is always reckless.




Every six months or so people are laid off and when someone suggests not supporting them anymore, someone else says that this suggestion is shortsighted. Nevertheless, they keep getting rid of their talent. The sad thing is that in all likelyhood, there are a number of others from throughout the company who are also getting the boot, but you rarely hear about them because they aren't names in the business. At any rate, most of the people who worked on D&D when I was there are gone now, and the ones who are left will probably be gone sooner or later and replaced by newer employees who are brought in at lower salaries. It's a despicable practice, absolutely unconscionable, but it's become par for the course since WotC was sold to Hasbro. Personally, I've taken to giving my gaming dollars to companies that don't fire their senior talent every year.

And for those who have said that it's hard to work in that kind of an environment, you're right. It's one of a handful of reasons I opted to leave the company on my own terms when I had the chance. My stress induced ulcer went away shortly afterward, and I no longer have the joy of going into work wondering if I'll still be able to support my family a few weeks down the line. When I worked there, I couldn't imagine the heartbreak of being laid off, but once I realized that being laid off was a foregone conclusion and showed myself the door, I couldn't imagine ever working for them again.


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## catsclaw227

Umbran said:


> WotC has a budget, and a fiscal year.  If they know they must cut people to meet next years budget, cutting them as close to the deadline as possible keeps them on payroll as long as possible, and allows their severance and unemployment benefits to last as long beyond the holidays as possible.  In this economy, every month they stay on the payroll is another month of possible improvement in the general economic situation, making their getting new jobs that much more likely.
> 
> So, one might quibble that having a fiscal year that ends with the calendar year necessitates cutting now, as opposed to some other time.  But, given that deadline, it seems to me that waiting until the last moment really is doing as well by those employees as possible.



These are my thoughts as well, but Darrin has a point too.

I imagine they are laying off the ones with the biggest salaries, and that most positively affects the bottom line when the numbers need to be good at the end of the fiscal year.

I hope that their severance pay is good enough to get them through the holidays and on to other positions.

I once worked for a mid-sized company that laid off people each year as well, and I was one of the ones that got laid off, but their severance was a golden balloon, three full months of pay plus I was able to receive unemployment.  

It gave me plenty enough time to find a new job.

Does anyone know how good severance pay at WOTC has been in the past?


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## DaveMage

I remain amazed that people even apply for jobs at WotC anymore.

And for those that are still there (especially in the D&D arena), I really hope for your sake that you're continually checking the job market because it seems like it's only a matter of time before your number will be called....


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## catsclaw227

DaveMage said:


> I remain amazed that people even apply for jobs at WotC anymore.



I know..... who would want to get a job writing for D&D? 

I imagine that the writing credit alone would be able to land you more jobs than would be possible prior to working for them.


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## AllisterH

catsclaw227 said:


> I know..... who would want to get a job writing for D&D?
> 
> I imagine that the writing credit alone would be able to land you more jobs than would be possible prior to working for them.




Then of course, there's the actual wages and the benefits. From what I gather, it is significantly better than what you could get in other companies. You can actually live comfortably on that one salary.


----------



## Pramas

catsclaw227 said:


> I imagine they are laying off the ones with the biggest salaries, and that most positively affects the bottom line when the numbers need to be good at the end of the fiscal year.




That's part of it, but I doubt it's the whole story. These things often also hinge on internal politics, who your friends are, and how well you play (or insulate yourself from) the corporate game.

And to be clear, I don't have info on this specific round of layoffs. I'm just generalizing based on past history.


----------



## catsclaw227

Pramas said:


> That's part of it, but I doubt it's the whole story. These things often also hinge on internal politics, who your friends are, and how well you play (or insulate yourself from) the corporate game.
> 
> And to be clear, I have info on this specific round of layoffs. I'm just generalizing based on past history.



Absolutely, internal politics, who-you-know and how-you-behaved were all part and parcel of the layoffs I went through a number of years ago.  But it had much more to do with divisions needing to reduce overhead, removing salaries that could be replaced with lower ones, and making the shareholders happy.

BTW.. do you mean, you DON'T have info on this specific round of layoffs?


----------



## Logan_Bonner

I can confirm that I was let go yesterday. I plan to stay somewhat active here at ENWorld. (Though I'll need a name change; how about just "Logan_Bonner"?) I'd like to keep working in gaming, so hopefully you'll still see my name from time to time.

The funny thing is, my best work isn't even released yet! Keep an eye out for HS1: The Slaying Stone. Buy a copy; that'll show 'em! (Okay, not really. But I think you'll like the adventure.) I went out working on something cool, too (that I can't tell you about, of course). I mean, I spent part of my last day writing about mind flayers! How many people who got laid off can say that?!



ggroy said:


> It looks like the remaining overworked WotC full-time D&D designers left are Mike Mearls, James Wyatt, Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell working on the following 4E titles in 2010: (snip)




Let's not forget Peter Lee! He's mostly working on minis, board games, and other non-books products. Let's not forget Matt Sernett, who also does great stuff for Magic! Let's not forget Steve Schubert, Peter Schaefer, and Rodney Thompson, who'll be working a little bit harder with one less developer! Let's not forget the editors and managing editors (okay, I ran out of steam in listing names), who'll be dealing with text that's not had quite as much care and attention as it might have had with a bigger staff! Let's not forget the D&D Insider crew who'll be running without Mr. Sims.

I wish all my friends back at WotC the best of luck. They're a capable crew, and it's been a please working in an environment with such creative people for the last 3-1/2 years. I can design games anywhere, but not having all these great people to work with every day will be the hardest part.



fireinthedust said:


> (snip) Please keep writing for 4e!
> 
> (snip)
> 
> For sure it'd be good to read blogs by you folks, on gaming and other topics like game design, etc.




I plan to, as long as I can find work. I still love the game and have more I want to get out there. I'd love to find a good way to get my thoughts on gaming out there, and I'll start looking for a venue soon.



Darrin Drader said:


> (snip) The sad thing is that in all likelyhood, there are a number of others from throughout the company who are also getting the boot, but you rarely hear about them because they aren't names in the business. (snip)




Four people from CAPS (the graphic design and production side of making the games) were also let go. I don't feel comfortable divulging their information personally.


----------



## Frylock

A company that fires their best employees doesn't last as long as WotC has.  It just doesn't happen like that unless politics (and thus emotions) are involved, and too much of that kills a business relatively quickly (depending on size).  Any stories to the contrary are almost certainly urban legends originating from a former employee with "sour grapes," accepted without debate by those who take the easy "I hate big business" approach.  If that we're truly their business method, they'd be long dead by now.  Instead, they're the biggest force in the gaming universe, and the only one that has as large a payroll as it has.  

I'm guessing, considering the talent that was let go today, those guys won't be blasting their former employer.

EDIT: Ninja'd in a sense by WotC_Logan.


----------



## rgard

My sympathies and prayers are with those who were laid off.  I've been there and yes it is devastating to include the timing.  

BTW, I have no doubt some execs at WotC and or Hasbro will get kudos in their annual reviews for 'keeping costs at or below budget'.

That's just the way it is.

Thanks,
Rich


----------



## Glyfair

I worked for a company that laid me off the day before Thanksgiving (note this was a seasonal layoff and I was back to work in January).  The holidays happen to come at a time where layoffs are common in a lot of industries.



Banshee16 said:


> I mean, Christmas is one of the most stressful times of year to begin with, and one of the times with the most suicides...




Just for the record, this is an urban legend and is false.


----------



## Darrin Drader

Frylock said:


> A company that fires their best employees doesn't last as long as WotC has.




So you're arguing that WotC doesn't let their best talent go? I'll be sure to mention that to Jeff Grubb, Sean K. Reynolds, Skip Williams, Jonathan Tweet, Julia Martin, Jim Butler, Chris Pramas, David Noonan, Stan!, Owen Stephens,and a handful of others (AKA - a who's who of the gaming industry, even today, most of whom were considered essential personnel and moved to Seattle from TSR). These are people who made D&D a success in the modern era and remain deeply concerned with the state of the game today.


----------



## Frylock

Darrin Drader said:


> So you're arguing that WotC doesn't let their best talent go?




No, I'm not saying that.  Re-read the post.


----------



## Mark

Sorry to read this.  Best of luck to those who have lost their jobs.


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## Darrin Drader

Frylock said:


> No, I'm not saying that.  Re-read the post.




I did. That is what you said, and there are numerous cases of laid off WotC employees blasting their former employer for this practice. In fact, I recall that Monte Cook had some words on the subject the last time this happened.


----------



## diaglo

i'm not a WotC supporter. you all pretty much know that if you paid any attention to any of my posts from 1997 on...


but we do know that in a couple months they will be hiring again.

Mr Drader and Mr Mearls are examples of guys hired after one of these Xmas firings.

they hire and fire in pretty regular cycles.


----------



## delericho

Well, that sucks.

Hopefully, those affected will be able to quickly find better jobs elsewhere.


----------



## Frylock

Darrin Drader said:


> Every six months . . . companies . . . don't fire their senior talent.  _n . . . that kind of an environment . . . I . . . have the joy of going into work."_



_

Your words, not mine.

Learn to read words in context._


----------



## diaglo

Frylock said:


> Your words, not mine.
> 
> Learn to read words in context.




they let Mr Drader go a few years back.

not that they don't rehire. the guy who did the 2edADnD return to the keep on the borderlands can tell you how many times he was hired and fired. (john d rateliff or maybe i'm confusing him with john nephew)

or maybe SKR will pop in here too.


----------



## samursus

I feel I must add my condolences to the talented people being laid off from WotC.  Your contributions will be sorely missed.

I also must say I feel a bit concerned with the loss of these people, who for me, have been the faces and voices of Wizards.

Those who love D&D like what they like, as seen by many of the impassioned and emotional threads that have appeared on this board.

And we liked these people!

These are the people that created 4e, an edition that I and many others have grown to love...

This makes me wonder how solvent Wizards is, that they can afford to let go some of their most visual and well-known talent.  I mean, wasn't 4e supposed to be doing awesome fiscally??


Makes me wonder at the future of D&D.


----------



## Darrin Drader

diaglo said:


> they let Mr Drader go a few years back.




Hey, get the story right. I showed myself the door and have happily left it in the rear-view mirror.


----------



## diaglo

samursus said:


> Makes me wonder at the future of D&D.




D&D is alive and thriving.

the other stuff that is d02 and after can die.

until they fire Andy Collins this crap will continue to darken D&D's good name.

that is my Xmas wish.


----------



## catsclaw227

Darrin Drader said:


> Hey, get the story right. I showed myself the door and have happily left it in the rear-view mirror.



Did you leave because of a specific incident (or series of incidents) or was it because you saw the layoff writing on the wall and got out earlier? 

I'm not looking for details.... just curious if there was some bad blood when it happened.  And I only ask because I recall some of your posts reflect a lingering resentment (surely unintentional) and some other posts show an open dislike of WOTC.  

Did someone there give you a major screw-job?  You did some really good stuff for them (and a few other companies as well).


----------



## catsclaw227

diaglo said:


> until they fire Andy Collins this crap will continue to darken D&D's good name.
> 
> that is my Xmas wish.



me no understandy.

What did Andy Collins do that got you this riled up?  Was it the introduction of the d20 system?


----------



## noretoc

Turtlejay said:


> Wait, what? That sounds backwards to me. If your favorite drinking hole has to let one of their folks go, it is because money is tight. I'd imagine this applies to business on a larger scale, only more cutthroat. I'd say if you want your favorite designers to have jobs, buy stuff with their names on the cover, not stuff from their competition. Am I crazy?
> 
> Jay




Actually this is axactly what not to do.  I mean if you have been supporting them because you like the writers, then you just got a kick in the face too.  If you weren't supporting them before, then they should have been making a better a product to get thoes dollars from you and keep the work steady.  Jumping in and buying now just rewards the company for getting rid of good people.  As for the timing, Most places do this to avoid bonuses.  I have had it happen to me several times.  There is NOTHING good about losing your job right before christmas.  

Keep an eye out for these writers from here,  if you like them and make any of thier new projects successful.  That is how you can support them.


----------



## freyar

I'd just like to say that I wish those laid off the best of luck finding new work.  Can't be fun having to worry about that now.


----------



## DaveMage

catsclaw227 said:


> I know..... who would want to get a job writing for D&D?




You can get a job writing for D&D without being a full-time employee with WotC....



catsclaw227 said:


> I imagine that the writing credit alone would be able to land you more jobs than would be possible prior to working for them.




Which, apparenlty, is going to be needed by the folks laid off today.  So they have that going for them....which is nice.


----------



## Friadoc

Best wishes and sympathies to those hit by this layoff, as it's already an emotional event without the undue stress that can sometimes be brought on by the holiday season. Hopefully you'll all land well on your feet and the holidays go well and good.


----------



## Khairn

Business is business, I understand that and have had to lay off employees (and been laid off) in the past.  Eventually you pick yourself up and move on with your life.  Its brutal on family, but its not the end of the world.

Having said that, WotC's continuing habit of laying people off just before Christmas, simply sucks.  The decision to lay people off is not made in a vacum and is usually based on trends that are recognized and monitored ahead of time.  Deciding that Christmas is the "right" time to pull the trigger on the layoffs says volumes about those making the decision.


----------



## Morrus

This is probably a far-fetched request, but it would be great for the news if anyone had a list of notable people both laid off _and_ hired from WotC in the last ten years (with approximate dates).  It would give a great insight into the pattern.


----------



## catsclaw227

DaveMage said:


> You can get a job writing for D&D without being a full-time employee with WotC....



Sure, but being around all the other developers and designers, playing in lunchtime games, working closely with the other D&D team....  That surely has to have more juice to it than to be a freelancer. 

No knock on freelancers AT ALL.... the ones that write for WOTC and frequent this site, like our undead mouse, are awesome.


----------



## Banshee16

Dragonblade said:


> There is nothing evil or immoral about a layoff. Of course it sucks for those affected. I won't deny that. I have been restructured out of a position before. But if a company can't control costs because they of some misguided belief that they should never let anyone go, they will eventually go under and then EVERYONE loses their jobs. How is that somehow a more desirous result?
> 
> Not buying WotC products will have the exact opposite result from what you want. Lower sales only results in more employees being laid off. If you truly want WotC not to lay people off, to hire more people, and pay better, you should be buying all the 4e product you can.




I just don't understand how rewarding a company by buying their products in any way lets you tell them you disapprove of their business practices (particularly letting go the authors who wrote the products you happened to like)?  I just don't see it.

Yeah, not buying their products will hurt them...but that's kind of the point.

There are companies out there who have management that isn't out there choosing to lay off staff first.  I've had friends working at companies where the executives passed on their bonuses, and *all* staff, including management took a pay cut, with the understanding that there would be no layoffs.

If money is tight, I'm sure that many employees would rather be given the opportunity to forgo a bonus, or take a pay cut, rather than lose their job.  But I've seen enough instances of companies where the executives did layoffs, and then got bonuses, to lack any kind of respect for the cycle.

Banshee


----------



## Perram

I'm really sorry to hear about these cut backs.  Those who are loosing their positions have my deepest sympathies and I wish them a quick recovery and a long healthy life in the industry should that be their passion.

Regardless of our allegiences, any loss of these artists (of which I view every aspect of the creation of these games as art) is a horrible thing and makes our world a little less than it was before, a little less vibrant, a little less briliant, a little less fun.

Be well,



Perram


----------



## billd91

Frylock said:


> Your words, not mine.
> 
> Learn to read words in context.




What are you talking about? I've read your post a few times and I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're saying and why Derrin's characterization of your post is wrong. It sounds to me like you're directly challenging his statements about WotC's layoff practices. But he's the one with the first hand observations of WotC and he's not the only one who's made similar comments.

Also, companies can be fairly successful at managing their costs by getting rid of more expensive experienced talent in favor of lower-cost new employees, particularly when there's a lot of competition for the work as there is in the gaming industry. Same with getting rid of permanent staff in favor of freelancers and consultants. Sure, you often pay them more per hour of work, but you don't pay for their benefits. And that can be substantial savings.


----------



## Banshee16

Darrin Drader said:


> Every six months or so people are laid off and when someone suggests not supporting them anymore, someone else says that this suggestion is shortsighted. Nevertheless, they keep getting rid of their talent. The sad thing is that in all likelyhood, there are a number of others from throughout the company who are also getting the boot, but you rarely hear about them because they aren't names in the business. At any rate, most of the people who worked on D&D when I was there are gone now, and the ones who are left will probably be gone sooner or later and replaced by newer employees who are brought in at lower salaries. It's a despicable practice, absolutely unconscionable, but it's become par for the course since WotC was sold to Hasbro. Personally, I've taken to giving my gaming dollars to companies that don't fire their senior talent every year.
> 
> And for those who have said that it's hard to work in that kind of an environment, you're right. It's one of a handful of reasons I opted to leave the company on my own terms when I had the chance. My stress induced ulcer went away shortly afterward, and I no longer have the joy of going into work wondering if I'll still be able to support my family a few weeks down the line. When I worked there, I couldn't imagine the heartbreak of being laid off, but once I realized that being laid off was a foregone conclusion and showed myself the door, I couldn't imagine ever working for them again.




Kudos to you for that Darren.  It takes steel ***** to recognize when things are going south, and leave of your own will.

And I agree.....any environment where layoffs are occurring...particularly if they're expected, is a pretty stressful environment to work in, and not at all pleasant.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16

DaveMage said:


> I remain amazed that people even apply for jobs at WotC anymore.





Well, I suspect that there are enough up and comers in the industry, wanting to cut their teeth in the industry, and enthused about the prospect of working on D&D that they'll always find new staff willing to overlook a bad corporate environment in order to "make" their resume (the assumption being that in the industry, if you've done good work for WotC, you have an excellent chance of getting jobs designing for other companies).

Banshee


----------



## DaveMage

Banshee16 said:


> Well, I suspect that there are enough up and comers in the industry, wanting to cut their teeth in the industry, and enthused about the prospect of working on D&D that they'll always find new staff willing to overlook a bad corporate environment in order to "make" their resume (the assumption being that in the industry, if you've done good work for WotC, you have an excellent chance of getting jobs designing for other companies).
> 
> Banshee




If they are using it as a stepping stone - that I could see.  As long as they go into it knowing it's likely a temp job.


----------



## catsclaw227

billd91 said:


> Also, companies can be fairly successful at managing their costs by getting rid of more expensive experienced talent in favor of lower-cost new employees, particularly when there's a lot of competition for the work as there is in the gaming industry. Same with getting rid of permanent staff in favor of freelancers and consultants. Sure, you often pay them more per hour of work, *but you don't pay for their benefits*. And that can be substantial savings.



My emphasis above....

Health and Worker's Comp insurance are pretty expensive and is one of the reasons why companies go to layoffs and/or freelancers to reduce their operating costs.


----------



## Banshee16

Frylock said:


> A company that fires their best employees doesn't last as long as WotC has.




This is not correct at all.  Sometimes they're lucky enough to find new talent.  And sometimes the rot, and damaged caused by the layoffs simply takes awhile to have an effect......look at Nortel, for instance.  That company's been crumbling for a decade.....but they were doing layoffs in 2001, and it's been steadily downhill from there.

When companies are really large (in gaming terms, WotC is a giant), they can take body blows, like losing top talent.  Sometimes they can come out of it, and sometimes the damage just takes a long time to really be noticed.

I knew another company that a family member of mine ran.  It was about 2000 people, and he held them at some of their best profit levels.  And when things tightened a bit due to overseas competition, the owners brought in a manager who decided to get rid of that family member, and several other staff.  It allowed them to claw back pensions, save money from salaries etc. for that year.  However, turns out that those high salaries paid to the people they just got rid of were justified, and without those minds helming the ship, the company did worse.  In the end, they went into a tailspin, and were gobbled up a few years later as a result.  It happens.

Layoffs may be a standard practice nowaways, but I'd contest that they're a sign of a desperate business, or bad management.  They make things better less than half the time.

Banshee


----------



## Stalker0

Good luck to those recently let go.


I will say though that I think people are being too hard on WOTC. America is in double digit unemployment right now....many other countries are worse. While the firings might be regular, especially right now they may be justified. I'm still glad to have gaming companies, in a recession I suspect they are badly hit.


----------



## Mistwell

Drkfathr1 said:


> As others have said, this just gives some of us even more reason to no longer support WotC.




Are you declining to purchase products and services from all other businesses doing layoffs? As in, are you simply not buying anything at all these days?

I don't get this attitude that people should try to harm the companies that produce the things they like the most.  You do understand that if you were successful, your success would be measured in yet more game designers being laid off, right?


----------



## The Little Raven

Stalker0 said:


> Good luck to those recently let go.




Agreed. These are some talented and respectable fellows. The best of fortune to you all.



> I will say though that I think people are being too hard on WOTC. America is in double digit unemployment right now....many other countries are worse. While the firings might be regular, especially right now they may be justified. I'm still glad to have gaming companies, in a recession I suspect they are badly hit.




Doubly agreed.

This is the RPG industry, which has never been a huge contender as far as entertainment industries go, during the biggest recession and period of massive unemployment that it has faced in its lifetime to date.


----------



## Friadoc

Mistwell said:


> Are you declining to purchase products and services from all other businesses doing layoffs? As in, are you simply not buying anything at all these days?
> 
> I don't get this attitude that people should try to harm the companies that produce the things they like the most.  You do understand that if you were successful, your success would be measured in yet more game designers being laid off, right?




So, what would you suggest?

I mean, seriously, if you disapprove of things that a company is doing it seems rather silly to continue to support them out of fear that they'll do more of what you're disapproving of. Do nothing? Rail impotently?

We're customers and the only thing we've got is our patronage and dollar. Period. Sure, you'll hear talk from companies saying that they listen to their customers, but what they really mean is that they watch how customers spend their money.

Sure, removing our dollars from WotC's future coffers would result in tighter times, more folks losing their jobs, but if you expect a change from WotC, if you expect them to notice that you're irked at them, withdrawal of purchasing power is the only real way to impact them. It sucks, it's sad, but that's the nature of economics.

Maybe if they were better about layoffs, maybe if they showed a record of hiring folks back, then maybe a lot of folks wouldn't feel the way that they do. As it currently stands, I wouldn't take a job from WotC without a grain of mercenarial salt in my pouches, since I'd only be as loyal to them as I expected them to be loyal to me. I'd jump for a better job elsewhere, just as I know they'd throw me to the wolves if they needed to.

It's a sad state of things, I think, but that's life right now in this economy.


----------



## Darrin Drader

catsclaw227 said:


> Did you leave because of a specific incident (or series of incidents) or was it because you saw the layoff writing on the wall and got out earlier?
> 
> I'm not looking for details.... just curious if there was some bad blood when it happened.  And I only ask because I recall some of your posts reflect a lingering resentment (surely unintentional) and some other posts show an open dislike of WOTC.
> 
> Did someone there give you a major screw-job?  You did some really good stuff for them (and a few other companies as well).




That's a fair question and I don't mind answering it. First of all, my job was not in jeopardy, and it wasn't a Cartmanesque "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" In fact, I gave them a month notice and continued to do a good amount of freelance work for them after I left.

There were decisions that were made at the highest level that I disagreed with. Some of them affected me personally while others just annoyed me, but none of them were the types of things that would have ended my job or put me on the short list for termination. I'd delve into details, but they really aren't the types of things that need to be aired, and they weren't deal breakers.

The main issue for me was layoffs. I highly doubt that anyone working there has any sense of job security. In the four years I worked there, I didn't see any. At the time, my second child had just been born and the one thing that I needed was job security. The stress levels caused by the uncertainty were increasing and it was taking a toll on my health. Having worked for places that weren't so random and unpredictable when eliminating employees, I knew that there were more stable places to be, so I made arrangements to leave. 

Ultimately my path led me back to school to finish up my undergrad degree (I'll have it in a couple weeks. Thanks in advance for your congratulations). The next question for me is whether to go to grad school, which I'm being urged to do by two of the three people who sit on the grad school admissions panel, or do something else. Right now I'm leaning towards more school, as academia tends to have the security that I'm looking for, not to mention the opportunity to shape the minds of the next generation of up and comers.

At any rate, when I left WotC, I was asked if I was certain that it was what I wanted to do by my supervisors, I gave them more than a month's notice, and I continued to do freelance work for them for a couple years after I left. My separation from the company was on fine terms. The reason that I'm critical of them today has to do with the fact that I've seen several more of my friends laid off, many of whom struggled to find quality employment after they left, and because of many of the decisions that were made regarding the rollout of 4E. I'm not going to rehash all of that as I'm sure that my posting history speaks for itself, but I feel that a number of those decisions had harmful effects on the industry at the time. 

But, there's also evidence that the industry has recovered over this past year and I'm not particularly worried about the way things have realigned. In fact, it looks as though things are healthier now than they have been for several years. I haven't been this busy as a freelancer in about three years. In other words, the reason I speak up when WotC lays people off is because these are talented people, many of them have families, I consider these yearly cuts mostly unnecessary, and there is a human toll when this happens. It is possible to operate a company ethically and profitably, and while this year is particularly hard on most businesses, yesterday's layoffs are part of a well established and easy to track pattern with WotC. I have nothing but good wishes and respect for the few people I know who still work there.


----------



## M.L. Martin

Darrin Drader said:


> At any rate, most of the people who worked on D&D when I was there are gone now, and the ones who are left will probably be gone sooner or later and replaced by newer employees who are brought in at lower salaries. It's a despicable practice, absolutely unconscionable, but it's become par for the course since WotC was sold to Hasbro.




  You'd know better than I would, but I was under the impression that the Christmas layoff pattern at WotC predated the Hasbro acquisition--even predated WotC's acquisition of TSR, actually. Am I wrong, or is it just the replacement with newer employees you're talking about?


----------



## Bedrockgames

December seems like a bad time to let people go, even if it does make economic sense to do so for the company.


----------



## Kzach

Friadoc said:


> I mean, seriously, if you disapprove of things that a company is doing it seems rather silly to continue to support them out of fear that they'll do more of what you're disapproving of. Do nothing? Rail impotently?




There's a pretty large disparity between a company letting people go as part of a regular fiscal cycle, or even just because they want to improve their bottom line, or heck, even just out of pure spite because of internal politics, and Nike child slave labour in third world countries.

Making a mountain out of a mole hill causes more problems than it solves. The answer to your question is that people should choose their battles with a little more wisdom and forethought. Some battles are worth fighting, and some are just petty and pointless.


----------



## Mistwell

Friadoc said:


> So, what would you suggest?
> 
> I mean, seriously, if you disapprove of things that a company is doing it seems rather silly to continue to support them out of fear that they'll do more of what you're disapproving of. Do nothing? Rail impotently?




I am saying its a huge double standard.

You are posting using an ISP that probably laid people off.  You continue to support that ISP though.  Because it's simply not something you looked into or probably care a whole lot about.

You care about games though, so you punish more game designers by not supporting their company.  Meanwhile, you reward your ISP because it's not something you care as much about.

It's totally backwards thinking.  We should be supporting the companies who produce the things we like the most MORE now, not less.  In this economy, our support is what allows for game designers to have a job at all.

I mean, what reaction do you think you could get if your "protest" were successful?  Do you think a) they will never lay people off again, or b) they will lay more people off because now they are making even less money? The answer is b.  You would be effecting the layoff of another employee whose work you probably like.



> We're customers and the only thing we've got is our patronage and dollar. Period. Sure, you'll hear talk from companies saying that they listen to their customers, but what they really mean is that they watch how customers spend their money.
> 
> Sure, removing our dollars from WotC's future coffers would result in tighter times, more folks losing their jobs, but if you expect a change from WotC, if you expect them to notice that you're irked at them, withdrawal of purchasing power is the only real way to impact them. It sucks, it's sad, but that's the nature of economics.




Except they won't notice.  They will never track this event to loss of future revenue.  There isn't anyone looking for that kind of distant link, nor frankly should there be.  All it will mean is a while from now at another end of year they will see less money and lay more people off.  Nobody will every say "gee it's because of the last lay off".



> Maybe if they were better about layoffs, maybe if they showed a record of hiring folks back,




Um, they do though.  It's in this thread.  They often do rehiring in January and February.  Of course, that is unless your plan actually works, in which case they won't have the money to do that rehiring.

This kind of "protest" is one stage thinking.  It doesn't contemplate the actual likely ramifications of your actions.


----------



## Darrin Drader

Matthew L. Martin said:


> You'd know better than I would, but I was under the impression that the Christmas layoff pattern at WotC predated the Hasbro acquisition--even predated WotC's acquisition of TSR, actually. Am I wrong, or is it just the replacement with newer employees you're talking about?




My perception is that Peter Adkison was never as layoff-happy as Hasbro-WotC is. Since my personal experience with WotC started after the Hasbro acquisition, and the fact that I happen to think Peter Adkison is a great human being, I admit that my perception could be inaccurate. I don't have the numbers from before the Hasbro layoffs, but I did see a significant downsizing of the company that was a direct result of the corporate merger while I worked there.


----------



## Morrus

Bedrockgames said:


> December seems like a bad time to let people go, even if it does make economic sense to do so for the company.




Better than January, I think. Imagine having splashed out on an expensive Christmas and _then_ losing your job.



Kzach said:


> There's a pretty large disparity between a company letting people go as part of a regular fiscal cycle, or even just because they want to improve their bottom line, or heck, even just out of pure spite because of internal politics, and Nike child slave labour in third world countries.




Sure, but it's up to him where the line is drawn as far as his wallet is concerned. He's decided where to draw it; nobody can tell him he's wrong to do so. Your line is clearly in a different place.

Not that a couple of people on the intrawebs are exactly going to have an effect; but that's beside the point.


----------



## M.L. Martin

Darrin Drader said:


> My perception is that Peter Adkison was never as layoff-happy as Hasbro-WotC is. Since my personal experience with WotC started after the Hasbro acquisition, and the fact that I happen to think Peter Adkison is a great human being, I admit that my perception could be inaccurate. I don't have the numbers from before the Hasbro layoffs, but I did see a significant downsizing of the company that was a direct result of the corporate merger while I worked there.




   OK--it looks like there were substantial layoffs in 1995 (with the dissolution of the whole RPG department), and if my memory's not playing tricks on me, there may have been a round in 1996 as well. I seem to remember comments on Usenet about that time that it suggested it was becoming a pattern, but that might have been internet snark.

  However, I hadn't remembered that Hasbro's acquisition of WotC goes back to 1999. That actually explains a few things--I had thought the shift in culture I perceived/read into matters was due to TSR finally being absorbed by WotC, but the Hasbro acquisition and (more importantly) the changeover in key personnel would be much more likely.


----------



## Friadoc

Mistwell said:


> I am saying its a huge double standard.
> 
> You are posting using an ISP that probably laid people off.  You continue to support that ISP though.  Because it's simply not something you looked into or probably care a whole lot about.
> 
> You care about games though, so you punish more game designers by not supporting their company.  Meanwhile, you reward your ISP because it's not something you care as much about.
> 
> It's totally backwards thinking.  We should be supporting the companies who produce the things we like the most MORE now, not less.  In this economy, our support is what allows for game designers to have a job at all.
> 
> I mean, what reaction do you think you could get if your "protest" were successful?  Do you think a) they will never lay people off again, or b) they will lay more people off because now they are making even less money? The answer is b.  You would be effecting the layoff of another employee whose work you probably like.
> 
> 
> 
> Except they won't notice.  They will never track this event to loss of future revenue.  There isn't anyone looking for that kind of distant link, nor frankly should there be.  All it will mean is a while from now at another end of year they will see less money and lay more people off.  Nobody will every say "gee it's because of the last lay off".
> 
> 
> 
> Um, they do though.  It's in this thread.  They often do rehiring in January and February.  Of course, that is unless your plan actually works, in which case they won't have the money to do that rehiring.
> 
> This kind of "protest" is one stage thinking.  It doesn't contemplate the actual likely ramifications of your actions.





While Charter has had layoffs, they've seemed better timed and bettered executed, especially those stemming from their restructuring last year. Sure, they suck, but layoffs are only suppose to be seasonal in industries that are seasonal, ala construction wildfire watchtower workers, and so forth.

If you have layoffs they should be to improve the companies fiscal fortitude, to the point that you don't have them the following year, thus showing an improvement in overall business. 

As a previous Hasbro investor, who sold his stock due to dissatisfaction with choices being made, I don't have that much confidence in a company who seems to think being an unstable employer as good business. 

As for the hiring in January and February, I'd have more respect for it if they were hiring back those that they previously laid off. Heck, I'm sure they could do a seasonal reduction in workforce, except it doesn't cut as much out of their bottom line as they'd like since they'd still have to maintain some level of HR footprint. Instead, they often laid folks off and hire new folks, and then repeat the process again come the next holiday season.

It ain't good business, in my opinion, as it shows an unstable employer, a lack of loyalty to employees, and weak job security. *shrugs*

But, I should just bow out of this at this point, especially since I've not bought a WotC product since sometime in the spring and I cancelled my DDI renewal at about the same time. Which, I guess, means I'm partially responsible for the layoffs.

Of course, WotC and its parent company is more responsible and could use better choices in management to handle such situations better.


----------



## pawsplay

I wish all the laid off persons, as well as WotC, the best in finding ways to meet their goals and prosper. Happy holidays to all, regardless.


----------



## pogre

Good luck men. I'm sorry this happened. I enjoyed much of your work. I'm certain talented fellows such as you are will land on your feet. Take care.


----------



## Friadoc

Kzach said:


> There's a pretty large disparity between a company letting people go as part of a regular fiscal cycle, or even just because they want to improve their bottom line, or heck, even just out of pure spite because of internal politics, and Nike child slave labour in third world countries.
> 
> Making a mountain out of a mole hill causes more problems than it solves. The answer to your question is that people should choose their battles with a little more wisdom and forethought. Some battles are worth fighting, and some are just petty and pointless.




You're right, there is a vast disparity between the two, which makes me glad that I didn't try and make that point. It'd have been a massive non-sequitur, too, given that there are actual laws against child labor and knowingly doing business with child labor law violators in the US.

But, choosing to remove my patronage from a company, because I disagree with various policies, be it design or bureaucracy, is fully reasonable. It's just as reasonable for them to design to someone else's tastes or hirer and fire completely upon their own choices, but to act like personal opinion isn't a battle worth waging, well more of a skirmish than a battle, is a rather banal thought.

People don't own any company their patronage, period. If we like someone, they get our business and if we don't, they don't. It's a pretty simple system, thus why companies like SJ Games, Paizo, Otherworld Creations, Malhavoc Press, Open Design/Kobold Quaterly and others get my business.


----------



## Darrin Drader

Mistwell said:


> I am saying its a huge double standard.
> 
> You are posting using an ISP that probably laid people off.  You continue to support that ISP though.  Because it's simply not something you looked into or probably care a whole lot about.
> 
> You care about games though, so you punish more game designers by not supporting their company.  Meanwhile, you reward your ISP because it's not something you care as much about.
> 
> It's totally backwards thinking.  We should be supporting the companies who produce the things we like the most MORE now, not less.  In this economy, our support is what allows for game designers to have a job at all.
> 
> I mean, what reaction do you think you could get if your "protest" were successful?  Do you think a) they will never lay people off again, or b) they will lay more people off because now they are making even less money? The answer is b.  You would be effecting the layoff of another employee whose work you probably like.
> 
> This kind of "protest" is one stage thinking.  It doesn't contemplate the actual likely ramifications of your actions.




In general, I agree with you to a point. Much of this argument comes down to whether you consider D&D a product or a creative vehicle for the writer. It's true that any game designer can step into the shoes left vacant by the previous person and still turn out decent, playable work. On the other hand, I feel that there's a certain quality about Monte Cook's work, or Jeff Grubb's work, for example, that stands out and makes their products greater than the sum of their parts. Not having them writing D&D anymore is, in my opinion, a huge, unrecoverable, loss to D&D. In that sense, the decision to stop buying it is a bit like the decision to stop watching X-Files after Duchovny left (by the way, I continued to watch after Duchovny left). Another example relating back to the entertainment industry was my decision to boycott TNT after the screwjob they gave Joe Straczynsky on the Babylon 5 spinoff series Crusade. Does TNT still make good shows? I'd presume so. Do I watch it? No, I don't. Maybe I could apply the same standard to the syfy channel, because they've done some boneheaded things, but they tend to not cancel good shows often enough to keep me watching - at the very least, they tend to let shows have a few seasons before giving them the axe. I just don't feel that WotC values their creative talent enough, and at a certain point you have to decide whether or not you want to continue supporting corporate behavior that you don't like. Everyone is entitled to make whatever decision they think is best.


----------



## coyote6

Dang, that sucks. Again. (This thread is way too deja vu.) Good luck to all those laid off.

Having been laid off on 1/15/2001, I can testify that it does indeed suck mightily to get a pink slip just as the Christmas bills are rolling in. Of course, it sucks anytime.

One side-note...



Darrin Drader said:


> Another example relating back to the entertainment industry was my decision to boycott TNT after the screwjob they gave Joe Straczynsky on the Babylon 5 spinoff series Crusade. Does TNT still make good shows? I'd presume so. Do I watch it? No, I don't.




FWIW, I think the executives have been turned over, so the folks that trashed Crusade are gone. And TNT does have some mighty fine shows (including one, _Leverage_, made by an ENWorlder; one of the funner shows on TV, IMO).


----------



## Asmor

That sucks.

Those are all names I recognize, too, so either the D&D staff is so small I know most of the people on it or WotC's laying off some of their best and most prolific contributors.

In any case, my feelings go out to those who may have lost their jobs.


----------



## Derulbaskul

My condolences to all who have been affected by this latest round of lay-offs.



Dragonhelm said:


> Tracy Hickman once gave me some good advice regarding game design and writing in general. "Don't quit your day job."




Honestly, I have never understood why people take up full-time employment in this micro-industry. There are too many people chasing too few jobs with even fewer employers and it's a declining micro-industry (the RPG business is too small to be considered an industry, IMO). As a designer you will never have the bargaining power you need to really carve out a niche for yourself that will keep you gainfully employed for life.

I hope those who have been retrenched are even more successful in the next stage of their lives. There is no better revenge than success!


----------



## Darrin Drader

Derulbaskul said:


> My condolences to all who have been affected by this latest round of lay-offs.
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, I have never understood why people take up full-time employment in this micro-industry. There are too many people chasing too few jobs with even fewer employers and it's a declining micro-industry (the RPG business is too small to be considered an industry, IMO). As a designer you will never have the bargaining power you need to really carve out a niche for yourself that will keep you gainfully employed for life.
> 
> I hope those who have been retrenched are even more successful in the next stage of their lives. There is no better revenge than success!




While this is definitely good advice and very true, a number of former WotC game designers now work for video game studios, and they end up doing much the same thing as they did before.


----------



## Jack99

First of all, good luck to those who have been fired. 



DaveMage said:


> You can get a job writing for D&D without being a full-time employee with WotC....



Considering the state of the 3pp business today, what companies other than WotC are likely to hire fulltime? Goodman Games perhaps? 



DaveMage said:


> If they are using it as a stepping stone - that I could see.  As long as they go into it knowing it's likely a temp job.



If the practice has been there for 10 years or so, can't we agree that most if not all knew the risks (or whatever you want to call them)?



Darrin Drader said:


> That's a fair question and I don't mind answering it. First of all, my job was not in jeopardy, and it wasn't a Cartmanesque "Screw you guys, I'm going home!" In fact, I gave them a month notice and continued to do a good amount of freelance work for them after I left.
> 
> There were decisions that were made at the highest level that I disagreed with. Some of them affected me personally while others just annoyed me, but none of them were the types of things that would have ended my job or put me on the short list for termination. I'd delve into details, but they really aren't the types of things that need to be aired, and they weren't deal breakers.
> 
> The main issue for me was layoffs. I highly doubt that anyone working there has any sense of job security. In the four years I worked there, I didn't see any. At the time, my second child had just been born and the one thing that I needed was job security. The stress levels caused by the uncertainty were increasing and it was taking a toll on my health. Having worked for places that weren't so random and unpredictable when eliminating employees, I knew that there were more stable places to be, so I made arrangements to leave.
> 
> Ultimately my path led me back to school to finish up my undergrad degree (I'll have it in a couple weeks. Thanks in advance for your congratulations). The next question for me is whether to go to grad school, which I'm being urged to do by two of the three people who sit on the grad school admissions panel, or do something else. Right now I'm leaning towards more school, as academia tends to have the security that I'm looking for, not to mention the opportunity to shape the minds of the next generation of up and comers.
> 
> At any rate, when I left WotC, I was asked if I was certain that it was what I wanted to do by my supervisors, I gave them more than a month's notice, and I continued to do freelance work for them for a couple years after I left. My separation from the company was on fine terms. The reason that I'm critical of them today has to do with the fact that I've seen several more of my friends laid off, many of whom struggled to find quality employment after they left, and because of many of the decisions that were made regarding the rollout of 4E. I'm not going to rehash all of that as I'm sure that my posting history speaks for itself, but I feel that a number of those decisions had harmful effects on the industry at the time.
> 
> But, there's also evidence that the industry has recovered over this past year and I'm not particularly worried about the way things have realigned. In fact, it looks as though things are healthier now than they have been for several years. I haven't been this busy as a freelancer in about three years. In other words, the reason I speak up when WotC lays people off is because these are talented people, many of them have families, I consider these yearly cuts mostly unnecessary, and there is a human toll when this happens. It is possible to operate a company ethically and profitably, and while this year is particularly hard on most businesses, yesterday's layoffs are part of a well established and easy to track pattern with WotC. I have nothing but good wishes and respect for the few people I know who still work there.




I thought it was the creative change within the company that made you leave?


----------



## chikako

Darrin Drader said:


> My perception is that Peter Adkison was never as layoff-happy as Hasbro-WotC is. Since my personal experience with WotC started after the Hasbro acquisition, and the fact that I happen to think Peter Adkison is a great human being, I admit that my perception could be inaccurate. I don't have the numbers from before the Hasbro layoffs, but I did see a significant downsizing of the company that was a direct result of the corporate merger while I worked there.




When one company is bought by another, the execs of the previous company often fool themselves into thinking they will be able to continue as a fully funded branch of the new company. That is very rare. More often than not, any duplicate functions are trimmed from the incoming entity before the ink is dry and anyone not associated with the the reason of the acquisition will suffer in the next six months or so. For example, when Adobe acquired Macromedia, anyone close to the success of Flash (and Dreamweaver) were treated as gold, whereas someone associated with a less important or non important product was treated terribly (or had the sense to leave first).

The one upside I see of a migration of talent is that talent can bolster competition in the market.  A lot of awesome products in the RPG market nowadays are coming from companies started by ex-WOTC employees. In fact, when I look at what's on our shelf, I see no new Hasbro products. All the most interesting things Ive bought come from the other companies - ones like Green Ronin, Paizo, Pelgrane Press and Mongoose (and others).


----------



## Dilandau Kale

Lisa Stevens talks about the layoffs over on the Paizo forums

paizo.com - Error

Despite what the link has as a title (no idea how that happened) It does work


----------



## Keefe the Thief

Condolences to all who were let go.

Man, these threads really get to me. The mass-appreciation and well-wishing of the community is nice, but there are a lot of knives coming out of pockets who had been sharpened long before the Christmas layoffs. Either way, this sucks.


----------



## Truth Seeker

Okay, who is left in the old guard?


----------



## Kzach

Keefe the Thief said:


> The mass-appreciation and well-wishing of the community is nice, but there are a lot of knives coming out of pockets who had been sharpened long before the Christmas layoffs.




Huh?


----------



## Windjammer

My condolences to all involved - speaking of whom, may I suggest to move Stephan Radney-MacFarland's name into the OP? 

Rob Heinsoo's departure comes as a heavy blow to me, as his contribution to 4E was decisive. I have taken this occasion to write him a tribute on Enworld here, since the way the thread progressed here seems a poor fit for that. That said, the discussion on WotC' layoff policy may profit by re-reading Monte Cook's post the last time this happened. Darren Drader already referenced the post, and you can reread it here.

Another suitable point of comparison are Zach' Houston's "Not so Fearless Predictions for 2009" which he made on Dec 30 2008 (excerpted):



> *December 1:*  Wizards of the Coast continues its cheery tradition of holiday layoffs by firing everyone but Mike Mearls and Enis the janitor.  Mearls and Enis immediately begin work on Player's Handbook 4.  After its completion, Enis gets the word to give Mearls the axe.


----------



## Keefe the Thief

Cool tribute, Windjammer! A "what they contributed to D&D" webpage would actually be a cool idea, me thinks.


----------



## Rechan

Can folks stop using the misfortune of these folks as a venue for their own personal axe-grinding? 

This thread should be about the people let go. Let's keep it consoling and supportive of Rob, Chris and Logan, without bickering about company policies. I imagine they don't want to swim through that stuff just to read the well wishes. 

I'm sad to hear you guys let go. Chris is a great DM, evident through the Podcasts, and the calmest voice around. Logan has always been the most prodigious WotC forum guy, and I always recognize Rob's work and enjoyed hearing interviews with him.


----------



## Nymrohd

I am curious, academically speaking, of how layoffs affect this type of business. In many industries layoffs are part of restructuring and downsizing costs, and are done often so you can fudge your numbers for the shareholders. But even more so than other types of business, creative business lives on knowledge workers and bleeding talent never has as simple an opportunity cost as lower apparent costs.


----------



## ggroy

Nymrohd said:


> I am curious, academically speaking, of how layoffs affect this type of business. In many industries layoffs are part of restructuring and downsizing costs, and are done often so you can fudge your numbers for the shareholders. But even more so than other types of business, creative business lives on knowledge workers and bleeding talent never has as simple an opportunity cost as lower apparent costs.




Another question is who exactly is making these layoff decisions, and for what reasons.  Wouldn't be too surprising if many workplaces resemble stuff that goes on in Dilbert.


----------



## diaglo

Darrin Drader said:


> My perception is that Peter Adkison was never as layoff-happy as Hasbro-WotC is. Since my personal experience with WotC started after the Hasbro acquisition, and the fact that I happen to think Peter Adkison is a great human being, I admit that my perception could be inaccurate. I don't have the numbers from before the Hasbro layoffs, but I did see a significant downsizing of the company that was a direct result of the corporate merger while I worked there.




WotC bought TSR in 1997. the move to seattle was a big breaker for many. some retired some were let go.

Hasbro bought Avalon Hill in 1998. although, iirc as far back as 1994 they thought about buying WotC. i think it was Pokemon which finally caused them to act/bid. the purchase for WotC was in sept 1999.

Peter Adkison left in 2001.

i wanna say the layoffs were just normal business before then too. but not really large in numbers and mostly they were guys who were asked. then hired back later. 

after Peter left though i think they went whole hog on the layoffs. i very much remember the 2001 Xmas layoffs and the 2003 ones as well. only b/c it seemed so strange to be getting rid of some of their talent during the height of d02 and Magic the Gathering going Online.

i'm not a historian and my memory sucks lemons. but that is just how i remember it. which certainly could be flawed.

at Gen Con 03 i remember chatting with anthony valterra at his booth. one day, he left work for the night. and the next they jhad locked him out of his office. he had to call a friend to escort him in to get some of his personal stuff.


----------



## avin

What a crapstatic company having D&D in its cold hands...


----------



## DaveMage

Jack99 said:


> First of all, good luck to those who have been fired.
> 
> Considering the state of the 3pp business today, what companies other than WotC are likely to hire fulltime? Goodman Games perhaps?




No - not 3PPs - Freelance for WotC (so that presumably you have an income from another source as well).



Jack99 said:


> If the practice has been there for 10 years or so, can't we agree that most if not all knew the risks (or whatever you want to call them)?




Maybe - as long as one goes into it with the idea that they are going in and getting out on their own terms, and not really caring what happens to WotC long term (as WotC apparently doesn't really care what happens to the employee long term).

In other words, if you're going to work there, go in with a 2-3 year plan, then get out.


----------



## Drkfathr1

Mistwell said:


> Are you declining to purchase products and services from all other businesses doing layoffs? As in, are you simply not buying anything at all these days?
> 
> I don't get this attitude that people should try to harm the companies that produce the things they like the most.  You do understand that if you were successful, your success would be measured in yet more game designers being laid off, right?




Oh, the layoffs are not the entirety of it at all, they're just the icing on the cake. I have many reasons not to buy from WoTC anymore. See, they don't produce the things I like the most. But thanks for trying to totally describe my motives for me. 

I don't get the attitude of people that don't understand that others don't think the same way they do.


----------



## Charwoman Gene

Rechan said:


> I'm sad to hear you guys let go. Chris is a great DM, evident through the Podcasts, and the calmest voice around.




While, I'm sure Chris Sims is a great DM too, are you talking about the D&D/Penny Arcade Podcasts?  That's Chris Perkins, who IIRC is not laid off.


----------



## Umbran

diaglo said:


> that is my Xmas wish.





At the moment, my X-mas wish is that people learn to use a bit of decorum in threads dealing with the misfortune of others.  

How about we cut back on the snarkiness and rudeness.  It fails to make your point, folks.


----------



## Zaukrie

Having worked where layoffs happened more than once, my sympathies to both those that lost their jobs, and those that will now work harder/more.

Also, as annoyed as we all feel, I can't see not buying product from a company that lays off people. Usually it is done so the company can survive. I suppose they could just keep all the people, not make a profit, and shut done. Also, pretty much every part of every big company has experienced layoffs. There wouldn't be many products you could buy if you never bought from a company that did layoffs.

It sucks getting laid off. It sucks sitting in your cube, not having the same friends to work with, and taking on their work (thought usually not as much as getting laid off). It all sucks.


----------



## Nathal

Darrin Drader said:


> ...the ones who are left will probably be gone sooner or later and replaced by newer employees who are brought in at lower salaries. It's a despicable practice, absolutely unconscionable, but it's become par for the course since WotC was sold to Hasbro. Personally, I've taken to giving my gaming dollars to companies that don't fire their senior talent every year.




Job seekers are always well advised to check out a company's turnover, and check out the prevailing working conditions for its employees. Getting a job at WOTC sounds to me like gambling with your financial welfare, a risk much greater than many other industries. WOTC interviewers should warn prospective employees, "by the way, Mr. Talent, you're quite expendable. Like a burger flipper really, so if we hire you, I wouldn't get to cozy. At the end of the year we'll roll a D20 and must Save Versus Layoff...that's our annual policy. So do you want the job?"

I've read the same goes for the entire field of journalism right now. This is not a Golden Age for talented, professional writers seeking dependable corporate employment!


----------



## diaglo

for some personal stories about the purchase of TSR by WotC back in 1997. check out the 30th anniversary coffee table book. look for the ones by (T)Ed Stark, Harold Johnson, and Peter Adkison. edit: they are somewhat related to this thread as it discusses layoffs and such.

edit3: also on a related note. last year's list is: 







> Randy Buehler (VP of digital gaming)
> Andrew Finch (director of digital games)
> Stacy Longstreet (senior art director)
> Julia Martin (editor)
> William Meyers (creative manager, digital design)
> Dave Noonan (game designer)
> Jennifer Paige (online community manager)
> Jennifer Powers (marketing)
> Jonathan Tweet (game designer)


----------



## AllisterH

Nathal said:


> Job seekers are always well advised to check out a company's turnover, and check out the prevailing working conditions for its employees. Getting a job at WOTC sounds to me like gambling with your financial welfare, a risk much greater than many other industries. WOTC interviewers should warn prospective employees, "by the way, Mr. Talent, you're quite expendable. Like a burger flipper really, so if we hire you, I wouldn't get to cozy. At the end of the year we'll roll a D20 and must Save Versus Layoff...that's our annual policy. So do you want the job?"
> 
> I've read the same goes for the entire field of journalism right now. This is not a Golden Age for talented, professional writers seeking dependable corporate employment!





Quite True...

But like I said before, given WOTC's payscale (assumption on my part that WOTC is paying more than say Goodman games) plus benefits (which I imagine many of the other RPG companies can't afford and Hasbro has always had a quite nice benefits package), for a 2-3 year stint, it might be worth it.


----------



## Rechan

Charwoman Gene said:


> While, I'm sure Chris Sims is a great DM too, are you talking about the D&D/Penny Arcade Podcasts?  That's Chris Perkins, who IIRC is not laid off.



Oops. 

Well, I know I've heard Chris Sims on a podcast interview or two.


----------



## megamania

My thoughts and good wishes to the folks let go especially at the time of year it is.


----------



## diaglo

Morrus said:


> This is probably a far-fetched request, but it would be great for the news if anyone had a list of notable people both laid off _and_ hired from WotC in the last ten years (with approximate dates).  It would give a great insight into the pattern.




i'll see what i can find on google, Wotc, Paizo, and here.

so far i've bumped a few tidbits.

Mike Mearls was hired around aug 2007.
there is a post over at Goodman Games from 2002 that talks about the 100+ let go around Gen Con time from WotC.


----------



## Khur

ggroy said:


> It looks like the remaining overworked WotC full-time D&D designers left are Mike Mearls, James Wyatt, Rich Baker, Bruce Cordell working on the following 4E titles in 2010:
> 
> Mike Mearls - Psionic Power, Demonomicon, Monster Manual 3, PH Races: Tieflings, Hammerfast, Player's Handbook 3
> 
> Bruce Cordell - Dark Sun Creature Catalog
> 
> James Wyatt - D&D Player's Strategy Guide, PH Races: Dragonborn
> 
> Rich Baker - Dark Sun Campaign Guide, Dark Sun Creature Catalog, Marauders of the Dune Sea, Martial Power 2



All these titles are already in the bag, mostly, just FYI. I contributed considerably to the Dark Sun books.



Jack99 said:


> Considering the state of the 3pp business today, what companies other than WotC are likely to hire fulltime? Goodman Games perhaps?



My response to this is way off topic, so I forked it here.


----------



## Aristotle

Probably too deep in the thread to be noticed, but for the people who criticize my decision to not buy the game anymore (and citing that the layoffs were a factor in that decision). I made that decision based on the layoffs that happened directly after 3rd edition was released, and then again directly after 4th edition was released. Those are not hard times for the company. A new, well received, edition with 3 base books means a large influx of cash.

I don't think WotC is evil. I do think I dislike their business practices. There are certainly game companies out there that seem much more loyal to their designers. Sure, even they sometimes have to drop someone.. but it's uaully pretty obvious why.


----------



## Keefe the Thief

I´m interested in that. Can you name two or three game companies that let staff go, and how the reasons were more transparent than at Wotc?


----------



## jdrakeh

Keefe the Thief said:


> I´m interested in that.




Ditto. In fact, I can't think of any other game company whose employee hiring and firing has generated so much public scrutiny. A not insignificant number of people seem to be _really_ fixated on the decisions of WotC's HR department every year to the point that it's almost like listening to sports announcers call a football game.


----------



## Morrus

Keefe the Thief said:


> I´m interested in that. Can you name two or three game companies that let staff go, and how the reasons were more transparent than at Wotc?




Not many game companies have staff at the scale that WotC does; freelancers and contractors are very commonly used in the industry.


----------



## Mistwell

Drkfathr1 said:


> Oh, the layoffs are not the entirety of it at all, they're just the icing on the cake. I have many reasons not to buy from WoTC anymore. *See, they don't produce the things I like the most. *But thanks for trying to totally describe my motives for me.
> 
> I don't get the attitude of people that don't understand that others don't think the same way they do.




I think an awful lot of the people doing the complaining in this thread and "threatening" to stop buying WOTC products were already not buying WOTC products any longer.  And therefore the claim that this was the event that tipped the scales does not seem to hold much water.  I think for some this is just another opportunity to rant about a past decision, and try and recruit others to that cause, and not a new decision for many.

You can not like the same things that I like, and think differently than I do. I just hope people are not  pretending that they were still buying WOTC products up until this layoff but now are not because of the layoff, when in reality they made the decision to stop buying WOTC products before this event.

And, as I said, I don't like it when people ignore other layoffs in companies they do frequently buy from because it's not the industry they care about, while punishing the industry they do care about.  It seems like a backwards way to go about it, or at best inconsistent behavior.


----------



## Mistwell

Nathal said:


> Getting a job at WOTC sounds to me like gambling with your financial welfare, a risk much greater than many other industries.




It's the worst recession of our lifetimes.  Almost o industry or company is safe. Saying that, right now, seems pretty silly to me.  Just getting a job at any company, much less WOTC, is pretty hard to do right now.  And you think people should not try to get that job because the company has a history of laying people off? Really? You think that right now, in this economy, is a sound decision?

Do you think there are hordes of "safe" jobs out there right now* for writers*, in any industry? I don't.  Writing is rarely a "safe" job even in good times.  But right now? It's all "unsafe".


----------



## Shroomy

I'm saddened by the news and hope that everyone affected by the layoffs gets back on their feet as soon as possible.


----------



## Drkfathr1

Mistwell said:


> I think an awful lot of the people doing the complaining in this thread and "threatening" to stop buying WOTC products were already not buying WOTC products any longer.  And therefore the claim that this was the event that tipped the scales does not seem to hold much water.  I think for some this is just another opportunity to rant about a past decision, and try and recruit others to that cause, and not a new decision for many.
> 
> You can not like the same things that I like, and think differently than I do. I just hope people are not  pretending that they were still buying WOTC products up until this layoff but now are not because of the layoff, when in reality they made the decision to stop buying WOTC products before this event.
> 
> And, as I said, I don't like it when people ignore other layoffs in companies they do frequently buy from because it's not the industry they care about, while punishing the industry they do care about.  It seems like a backwards way to go about it, or at best inconsistent behavior.




Well, I can't speak for others, but I'm not "threatening" to stop buying, I have stopped, and never claimed it was because of this round of layoffs. This round of layoffs just continue to affirm the decisions I've made in the past.


----------



## Shroomy

jdrakeh said:


> Ditto. In fact, I can't think of any other game company whose employee hiring and firing has generated so much public scrutiny. A not insignificant number of people seem to be _really_ fixated on the decisions of WotC's HR department every year to the point that it's almost like listening to sports announcers call a football game.




I've seen a lot of talk in some quarters about layoffs at Palladium.


----------



## Mistwell

Drkfathr1 said:


> Well, I can't speak for others, but I'm not "threatening" to stop buying, I have stopped, and never claimed it was because of this round of layoffs. This round of layoffs just continue to affirm the decisions I've made in the past.




You never claimed it, but you did imply it.  

You said it gave you even more reason to *no longer* support WOTC, as if you built up to a new decision now to not support them, with this event being one of the factors in that new decision.  You wouldn't need "more" reason to make a decision that you already made a while ago.

You then said the layoffs were not the entirety of it at all, but that they were "*the icing on the cake*".  As if the layoffs represented the final tipping point for you.  There is no icing on the cake if the cake was consumed 6 months ago.  Icing on the cake again implied a new decision was made as a result of a final event.

I guessed you had stopped buying WOTC products a while ago, but was not sure.  You sure seemed to be implying this was some sort of crossing point for your decision, but now it sounds like it was not.

Had they not done this lay-off, would that have called into question your decision? I doubt it.  I hope you are not using this layoff to make yourself feel better about, or gloat about, your prior decision to not support WOTC.  It seems to me that does a disservice to the people who just got laid off, to use their misfortune like that.


----------



## jdrakeh

Shroomy said:


> I've seen a lot of talk in some quarters about layoffs at Palladium.




Really? I thought that Palladium had quit using full-time game designers some time ago (i.e., I'm pretty certain that  Erick Wujcik was the last of the lot), instead contracting projects out to freelancers.


----------



## Shemeska

Mistwell said:


> Had they not done this lay-off, would that have called into question your decision? I doubt it.  I hope you are not using this layoff to make yourself feel better about, or gloat about, your prior decision to not support WOTC.  It seems to me that does a disservice to the people who just got laid off, to use their misfortune like that.




That's an incredibly low accusation to be making Mistwell. Seriously dude.


----------



## Rechan

jdrakeh said:


> A not insignificant number of people seem to be _really_ fixated on the decisions of WotC'



I feel this is a bit more accurate.


----------



## Rechan

As an aside. I personally would love to work at WotC, even for just six months. It'd be like going to work for Google. But more RPG-y.


----------



## Khur

Working at Wizards is largely great, so nobody should hesitate if he or she has the chance to do so. The people are fantastic, across the departments from R&D to brand. And I personally think most of the RPG R&D people are mad geniuses of one sort or another. RPG R&D is full of persons funny, snarky, creative, and with a real love of D&D and games. What I'll miss the most is being around that bunch of folks every day.


----------



## Drkfathr1

Mistwell said:


> You never claimed it, but you did imply it.
> 
> You said it gave you even more reason to *no longer* support WOTC, as if you built up to a new decision now to not support them, with this event being one of the factors in that new decision.  You wouldn't need "more" reason to make a decision that you already made a while ago.
> 
> You then said the layoffs were not the entirety of it at all, but that they were "*the icing on the cake*".  As if the layoffs represented the final tipping point for you.  There is no icing on the cake if the cake was consumed 6 months ago.  Icing on the cake again implied a new decision was made as a result of a final event.
> 
> I guessed you had stopped buying WOTC products a while ago, but was not sure.  You sure seemed to be implying this was some sort of crossing point for your decision, but now it sounds like it was not.
> 
> Had they not done this lay-off, would that have called into question your decision? I doubt it.  I hope you are not using this layoff to make yourself feel better about, or gloat about, your prior decision to not support WOTC.  It seems to me that does a disservice to the people who just got laid off, to use their misfortune like that.




Wow, thanks for ascribing motives to what I post. Do I attack your opinions/positions or make thinly-veiled personal attacks on you? 

Them not laying off workers, or even paying out big bonuses to all their workers WOULD have moved them up a notch in my opinion, and would have been a step towards regaining my business/support. 

But since you obviously know me so well why don't you just continue to tell me what I really mean.


----------



## mxyzplk

Best wishes to the laid-off.

In terms of "who's hiring" - Mongoose and Paizo are both growing and adding on positions from time to time.  Louis Porter, Jr (LPJ Design) has even immediately offered a freelance gig to the WotC victims.


----------



## TheAuldGrump

Good luck to the latest group to fall victim to WotC's Christmas surprise. 

I have bought no WotC since the whole OGL/GSL changeover, and I don't think that is likely to change. I am not going to say 'they are dead to me' (actually, I am, but just because I like the way that sounds...  ), but I have lost any respect or liking for the company, so why would I want to support them? At this time I don't like their third party policies, I don't like their products, and I don't like the way they treat their people.

There are too many alternatives that do not irritate me in this fashion, so those other companies are getting my business. (Paizo, Crafty, Blue Moon Manufacturing, World Works Games, etc. etc. etc.... Trust me, I have no shortage of places to spend my gaming dollar.)

The Auld Grump


----------



## Umbran

Folks,

You know how we often warn that you shouldn't make arguments personal?  Well, now would be an excellent time to exercise just that sort of restraint.


----------



## Roland55

Mouseferatu said:


> Damn. This is just...
> 
> I've really enjoyed working with, and have utmost respect for, everyone on that list.  If this is accurate, I really, _really_ hope they're all able to bounce back.




As do I.  At least the unemployment news has become a trifle less bleak very recently.

Wishing them all the best ...


----------



## Roland55

Mistwell said:


> It's the worst recession of our lifetimes.  Almost o industry or company is safe. Saying that, right now, seems pretty silly to me.  Just getting a job at any company, much less WOTC, is pretty hard to do right now.  And you think people should not try to get that job because the company has a history of laying people off? Really? You think that right now, in this economy, is a sound decision?
> 
> Do you think there are hordes of "safe" jobs out there right now* for writers*, in any industry? I don't.  Writing is rarely a "safe" job even in good times.  But right now? It's all "unsafe".




There's truth here.

My own industry couldn't be further away from the rpg or media industries.  And we're experiencing just as much stress and angst.  These are tough times for all professionals ... all workers.

There is some comfort, at least, in being "in it" together.


----------



## wedgeski

Good luck to everyone let go. I think we all know just how good you guys are at what you do, I'm sure there are ample opportunities out there.


----------



## fba827

Don't know how many now-ex-wotc staff are reading this, but ...

To those affected (whether or not your name appears in big letters on a book -- yes, I'm including you silent desk-jockies in the background who never get much notice), I wish you good luck


----------



## Plane Sailing

Logan_Bonner said:


> I can confirm that I was let go yesterday. I plan to stay somewhat active here at ENWorld. (Though I'll need a name change; how about just "Logan_Bonner"?)




Sure thing, name changed to *Logan_Bonner*.

Regards,


----------



## qstor

Sorry guys. Hope you find something soon.

Mike


----------



## Plane Sailing

Mistwell said:


> You never claimed it, but you did imply it.
> 
> You said it gave you even more reason to *no longer* support WOTC, as if you built up to a new decision now to not support them, with this event being one of the factors in that new decision.  You wouldn't need "more" reason to make a decision that you already made a while ago.




Mistwell is banned from the thread, for what seems like a continuing attempt to attack someone based on their feelings and decisions.

Once, we'll overlook, but c'mon. You are not a policeman whose job it is to analyse someone elses preferences and/or put words into their mouths.

After discussion, I realise I made a mistake here. I've let Mistwell back into the thread. Apologies to all concerned.

Regards,


----------



## Shemeska

So with the discussion of WotC potentially hiring or rehiring people in 2010, I had the following thought:

Is WotC still under the Hasbro mandated hiring freeze for all non-critical positions, and if so shouldn't this preclude anyone new coming in to fill any open positions in the 4e group?

Something to consider I suppose.


----------



## Drkfathr1

Good question. I wonder if that would apply to freelancers though?


----------



## Hairfoot

Hasbro fully deserves greater scrutiny of its hiring and firing than smaller publishers.  It dominates the RPG industry, publishes the hobby's flagship game and, as others have noted, is riding the success of its newest product line.

If a tiny publisher with half a dozen employees sacks someone, it's most likely in order to stay viable.  Hasbro doesn't have that excuse, and regular Christmas lay-offs look like outright bastardry.  If it's not, an explanation should be forthcoming to customers.


----------



## Shemeska

Drkfathr1 said:


> Good question. I wonder if that would apply to freelancers though?




Presumably not, which probably means a much larger use of them for 4e books and DDI articles moving forward.


----------



## ggroy

Shemeska said:


> Presumably not, which probably means a much larger use of them for 4e books and DDI articles moving forward.




Looking at what was released during the 3.5E era, a lot of stuff was done by Ari Marmell, Rob Schwalb, Keith Baker, Nicolas Logue, James Jacobs, Jason Bulmahn, Erik Mona, Ed Greenwood, Wolfgang Baur, etc ... who all appeared to be freelancers for WotC during the 3.5E era (if I'm not mistaken).

It wouldn't be too surprising if the same thing happened moving forward.


----------



## Shemeska

ggroy said:


> It wouldn't be too surprising if the same thing happened moving forward.




True, though I didn't really notice the big use of freelancers till the point in 3.5 that 4e was in development. So same result, different reasons moving forward most likely.


----------



## Hairfoot

"Moving forward" is _precisely _the type of corporate-ese I imagine Hasbro employees are used to.


----------



## ggroy

Shemeska said:


> True, though I didn't really notice the big use of freelancers till the point in 3.5 that 4e was in development. So same result, different reasons moving forward most likely.




Interesting point.

Examining Rob Heinsoo's output from 2005 to 2008, there's not many WotC titles which have his name credited on the front cover.  Wonder how much of his time and effort was dedicated to designing 4E over those years.


----------



## AllisterH

Hairfoot said:


> Hasbro fully deserves greater scrutiny of its hiring and firing than smaller publishers. It dominates the RPG industry, publishes the hobby's flagship game and, as others have noted, is riding the success of its newest product line.
> 
> If a tiny publisher with half a dozen employees sacks someone, it's most likely in order to stay viable. Hasbro doesn't have that excuse, and regular Christmas lay-offs look like outright bastardry. If it's not, an explanation should be forthcoming to customers.




You do realize Hasbro is a publically held company right?

Buy shares in Hasbro and you can ask these questions yourselves but keep in mind that as a publiclly traded company, Hasbro is legally forced to maximize profits.

Again, I don't think it's that easy for Hasbro to simply change its budget cycle. Companies like Hasbro given their size are in fact more unable to change when their budget cycle starts fresh since they are so tied to other aspects of the company.


----------



## Hairfoot

Well, I'm making a moral argument about job security for artists, so in that respect the profit imperative is loathsome, but it applies equally to other corporations, not just Hasbro.

WotC employees are shed in a scheduled process that applies to all of Hasbro's subdivisions, but it would be nice to think of D&D's publisher as a business that invests in and retains talent, rather than a lean, budget-obsessed supplement mill dedicated to squeezing the most work out of as few employees as possible.


----------



## CharlesRyan

Hi, all--

I think I can speak with some authority on WotC's nearly annual layoff cycle. In addition to being a victim of it, I survived several rounds in which better people than I were let go.

I can probably be forgiven for feeling that WotC's attitude toward their employees is somewhat cavalier. As Darrin points out, the company does not exhibit a strong sense of loyalty to its employees. That's hard on people who are shown the door--and it's hard on those who are left behind, with heavier workloads and worries over when their time will come.

But I'm also going to second Logan's points: While you are there, WotC is an incredible place to work. The people are terrific, the environment is very pleasant, and the company is good to those within its walls. For every story about layoffs, there's a story about a companywide Nerf war day. Despite the unhappy end to my tenure, should life ever lead me that way again I'd be happy to consider working at WotC again.

I'll add one more thing: At least up through my redundancy (and I hope for the sake of the recently let go that it remains the case), WotC had a very generous severance policy. Losing your job sucks. Losing it before the holidays sucks. But knowing you're financially sound for at least a few months, and getting some help in the job-search process, does take a bit of the edge off. That's no more than a barely-silver lining, I know, but it might take the edge of the apparent heartlessness of holiday layoffs.

(And about the timing: WotC's budgeting process is based on the calendar year. Payroll is based on budget. Naturally, the budget for a given year is finalized toward the conclusion of the previous year. Once finalized, any changes to payroll (in other words, staffing) need to be implemented. The timing is nothing more (or less) sinister than that.)

My heart goes out to those who were let go--those we know and those we don't. Rob in particular is a good friend, though they're all great people. Best of luck, guys.


----------



## rjdafoe

It is interesting to watch WotC.  As far as I am concerned, regular yearly layoffs of employees is one of the worst things a company can do.

Yes, layoffs happen, but they are usually sporadic, not an annual cycle that a company goes through enless your business is tied to some natural cycle like construction or similiar and you live in the northeast for instance.

I don't consisder WotC business to have that cycle.


----------



## vagabundo

rjdafoe said:


> It is interesting to watch WotC.  As far as I am concerned, regular yearly layoffs of employees is one of the worst things a company can do.
> 
> Yes, layoffs happen, but they are usually sporadic, not an annual cycle that a company goes through enless your business is tied to some natural cycle like construction or similiar and you live in the northeast for instance.
> 
> I don't consisder WotC business to have that cycle.




I agree, I think it is a poor business model and one that they should work to eliminate. Keeping quality staff should be one of the priorities of any business.


----------



## ggroy

vagabundo said:


> I agree, I think it is a poor business model and one that they should work to eliminate. Keeping quality staff should be one of the priorities of any business.




The question is whether Hasbro/WotC considers game designers/developers as "quality staff" and/or for that matter, whether they believe all game designers/developers are more or less replaceable with one another in a "commodity" like manner.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

vagabundo said:


> I agree, I think it is a poor business model and one that they should work to eliminate. Keeping quality staff should be one of the priorities of any business.



Hmm, that reminds on a recent post on CM about materialism vs idealism. Sure, if it was their free choice, they would keep every capable employer they ever got. Doesn't mean they _can_.


----------



## Plane Sailing

AllisterH said:


> that as a publiclly traded company, Hasbro is legally forced to maximize profits.




Is that strictly true? If so, over what timescale? I know several non-publicly traded companies which had an accountant take over the CEO job and they became completely focussed on profits with a one-year horizon and they all died a few years later (one of them had ~15,000 employees!).

"Maximising profits" rather than maximising profitability sounds like a very short term approach.

I'm guessing that I'm probably misunderstanding you here?

Cheers


----------



## ggroy

Plane Sailing said:


> Is that strictly true? If so, over what timescale? I know several non-publicly traded companies which had an accountant take over the CEO job and they became completely focussed on profits with a one-year horizon and they all died a few years later (one of them had ~15,000 employees!).
> 
> "Maximising profits" rather than maximising profitability sounds like a very short term approach.
> 
> I'm guessing that I'm probably misunderstanding you here?




I suspect it is highly dependent on who are the largest shareholders of a company.  For huge large-cap companies which are publicly traded on the NYSE and other stock exachanges, many such companies' largest shareholders are institutional investors such as mutual funds, index funds, pension funds, etc ...  For example, here's a list of Hasbro's largest shareholders:

HAS: Major Holders for HASBRO INC - Yahoo! Finance

For such large institutional shareholders, returns on their investment portfolios are probably their main focus and very little attention on the companies' products and services, unless something drastic happens to the balance sheet (ie. such as the Exxon Valdez disaster, the Union Carbide disaster at Bhopal, asbestos, big lawsuits against tobacco companies, etc ...).


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Plane Sailing said:


> Is that strictly true? If so, over what timescale? I know several non-publicly traded companies which had an accountant take over the CEO job and they became completely focussed on profits with a one-year horizon and they all died a few years later (one of them had ~15,000 employees!).
> 
> "Maximising profits" rather than maximising profitability sounds like a very short term approach.
> 
> I'm guessing that I'm probably misunderstanding you here?
> 
> Cheers



I think it is as much true as any decision-maker in the company wants to. If the stockholders care for short-term interests, that's what the company will strive for (or trying to get rid of those stock-holders). Some have no interest in long-term success if they can get short-term results. Others care more for long-term success, maybe not even motivated by financial gains overal but also by "soft" values like "tradition".  

But that might not really be relevant to WotC. Christmas layoffs are not the nicest things to do, even if cushioned with decent severence packages and all. But it doesn't seem as if the decisions for WotC are bad. There is no indication that different decisions would make it better. We just don't have this kind of information or insights into their business. We can only react on an emotional level.


----------



## AllisterH

Plane Sailing said:


> Is that strictly true? If so, over what timescale? I know several non-publicly traded companies which had an accountant take over the CEO job and they became completely focussed on profits with a one-year horizon and they all died a few years later (one of them had ~15,000 employees!).
> 
> "Maximising profits" rather than maximising profitability sounds like a very short term approach.
> 
> I'm guessing that I'm probably misunderstanding you here?
> 
> Cheers




While that is partly why we currently are in the mess we are in (too much shortsighted thinking), I don't believe this is the same thing here.

Legally, executives found to be purposely tanking a publicly traded company can be brought to court by shareholders. 

re: WOTC

Keep in mind WOTC only published 1 D&D book per month (and people were complaining this was an aggressive schedule). Unless every year you increase your audience (and RPGs seem to be a mature industry for D&D. Up and comers like Paizo and Green Ronin have room to grow) and thus sell more book every year (which again many people already think WOTC has an aggressive release schedule) long term employees cost you more than hiring either new employees or the even cheaper, freelancer. You can see this with Darksun specifically and artists in general. Brom, I might guess, is WAY more expensive than he was (even factoring in inflation) than when he was first doing DS

Unless you're ramping up for a new edition (thus need new designers to either handle the current stuff or work on the new stuff), what exactly are you doing with the excess staff.

There's also another factor I think people are forgetting. 

The new talent.

If you're WOTC and you only produce 1 book per month and you see a new person with great talent out there how exactly do you get them on your payroll??


----------



## catsclaw227

In past years has WOTC shown a decrease in sales of products when they have had developer/designer turnover due to layoffs?  

If there hasn't...

1. Been a noticible drop-off in sales for products that were already in the pipeline
2. Been noticable changes in quality that affected sales of products developed after the layoffs

...then there's no indication (from a shareholder perspective) that the annual process of layoffs has jeopardized the business.

The question is, then, do the shareholders even know about the layoffs beyond a line-item in a report?  i.e. do they see the names and recognize their impact in the industry and care about the layoffs to a point that it rolls up to higher management and therefore affects change?

I am sure most everyone hates the idea of layoffs from a human perspective, but most people simply chalk it up to the economy and a necessary evil to allow companies to survive.

I bet there are a lot of other services and products I use that were developed by companies that had to lay people off this year.  I guess care about the layoffs of the people at WOTC more than others because I am familiar with the individuals and I am a big fan of the hobby in general.


----------



## Umbran

AllisterH said:


> ... as a publiclly traded company, Hasbro is legally forced to maximize profits.




I am pretty sure this is not true as stated.

A company, and it's board of directors, have several legal responsibilities. Specifically, they must act in good faith to do what they think is best for the company.  This _may not be_ short-term maximization of profits.


----------



## TerraDave

Can it really be good HR policy to lay people off, from not very big teams, almost every single year?

Oh well, they are joining a fairly exclusive club, though that may not be much concilation. 



Umbran said:


> A company, and it's board of directors...must act in good faith to do what they think is best for the company.




This is correct, and what is good for the company can be interpreted quite broadly.


----------



## czak

TerraDave said:


> Can it really be good HR policy to lay people off, from not very big teams, almost every single year?
> 
> Oh well, they are joining a fairly exclusive club, though that may not be much concilation.
> 
> 
> 
> This is correct, and what is good for the company can be interpreted quite broadly.





Up here in Canada, what is 'best for the corporation' is very broad.  A board of directors does not have to maximize short term profits, or profits at all. In considering what is best for the corporation they are entitled to weigh the interests of: "the interests of shareholders, employees, suppliers, creditors, consumers, governments and the environment" - Peoples Department Stores (Trustee of) v Wise, [2004] 3 S.C.R. 461, 2004 SCC 68.  So long as the directors weigh these potentially conflicting interests in a fair and reasonable manner, the courts won't interfere - BCE Inc v 1976 Debentureholders, [2008] 3 S.C.R. 560, 2008 SCC 69.


Of course you folks in the US will have a different statutory set up and different common law. I don't think we've forked that drastically yet...
*goes back to studying for is corporations final*


----------



## ForceUser

This is why I'll never work for corporate America again. Best wishes to all who've felt the sting of layoffs. I hope you find work soon.


----------



## Herschel

ggroy said:


> Wonder how well "black friday" turned out this year for Hasbro and other toy companies.




"Black Friday" itself really doesn't mean much for Hasbro or toy companies. Their sales are aggregate so total sales volume would be their indicator rather than any specific day or few days.


----------



## Dragonstar

Best of luck to all who were let go - with such a large pool of talent, I'm sure something new will come up soon. Being let go ANY time of the year is never good, but speaking from experience this is probably the BEST time to be let go. I was given the axe after 5 years with a major company three days before Thanksgiving, and while it took me 10 weeks of unemployment to find a new job, I had the fortunate side effect of being able to spend the entire holiday with my family for the first time in a decade. It was really a blessing for me.

So to all of you who were let go this year, my best of wishes to you, and enjoy what matters most to you this holiday season!


----------



## Herschel

Logan_Bonner said:


> I mean, I spent part of my last day writing about mind flayers! How many people who got laid off can say that?!
> .




If you're writing about your work experince/updating the resume with corporate HR in mind it's the same thing. Just sayin'...


----------



## Herschel

Darrin Drader said:


> Hey, get the story right. I showed myself the door and have happily left it in the rear-view mirror.





All of the bitterness with none of the severence. Sounds like a diet ad. 

It's almost always better to leave on your own terms, so kudos for that. I've left a couple of positions I hated also (or at least the company), both by choice and by layoff. If I didn't buy from every company I didn't like a business practice they did I'd have nothing and what money I did have would be buried in mason jars or in a mattress.

These things suck, and I'd guess most of us with any amount of work history in a white collar environment would have experience with it.


----------



## Shemeska

ForceUser said:


> This is why I'll never work for corporate America again. Best wishes to all who've felt the sting of layoffs. I hope you find work soon.




Working for the government has its own drawbacks as well. For all the pitfalls in the corporate world, I'd have elective surgery before working for a government agency again.


----------



## Black Flame Zealot

Logan_Bonner said:


> I can confirm that I was let go yesterday. I plan to stay somewhat active here at ENWorld. (Though I'll need a name change; how about just "Logan_Bonner"?) I'd like to keep working in gaming, so hopefully you'll still see my name from time to time.
> 
> The funny thing is, my best work isn't even released yet! Keep an eye out for HS1: The Slaying Stone. Buy a copy; that'll show 'em! (Okay, not really. But I think you'll like the adventure.) I went out working on something cool, too (that I can't tell you about, of course). I mean, I spent part of my last day writing about mind flayers! How many people who got laid off can say that?!
> 
> 
> 
> Let's not forget Peter Lee! He's mostly working on minis, board games, and other non-books products. Let's not forget Matt Sernett, who also does great stuff for Magic! Let's not forget Steve Schubert, Peter Schaefer, and Rodney Thompson, who'll be working a little bit harder with one less developer! Let's not forget the editors and managing editors (okay, I ran out of steam in listing names), who'll be dealing with text that's not had quite as much care and attention as it might have had with a bigger staff! Let's not forget the D&D Insider crew who'll be running without Mr. Sims.
> 
> I wish all my friends back at WotC the best of luck. They're a capable crew, and it's been a please working in an environment with such creative people for the last 3-1/2 years. I can design games anywhere, but not having all these great people to work with every day will be the hardest part.
> 
> 
> 
> I plan to, as long as I can find work. I still love the game and have more I want to get out there. I'd love to find a good way to get my thoughts on gaming out there, and I'll start looking for a venue soon.
> 
> 
> 
> Four people from CAPS (the graphic design and production side of making the games) were also let go. I don't feel comfortable divulging their information personally.



I've had a lot of great times working with this recent crew of folks from R&D that got let go. 

Logan and I play in a weekly game together and he's one of the best friends I have here in Seattle; not to mention he's done some fantastic work on adventures for me in Organized Play (his Monster Manual 2 Game Day adventure was raved about by everyone I knew that played it). Stephen and I go WAAAY back - I worked for him as a contractor back in the Living Greyhawk days, and I now occupy his once-held position here at Wizards, before he came back to work with R&D. We worked on development on many projects here in the last year or so together, and he's taught me a lot about the ins and outs of the job I now hold. In fact, I certainly wouldn't be at Wizards if it wasn't for him.

Even though I haven't worked too closely on many projects with Rob and Chris Sims, I certainly can say I know them well enough (I've gamed with both of them some too) and they're great - honest, hard-working, and dedicated to the game. 

I wish all of them the best of luck down future roads. I know I'll try to help 'em out if they need it.


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## MerricB

I had this horrible thought when I saw you'd posted, Chris, that you'd been "let go" as well. Thank goodness that's not the case!

But that doesn't change how much it sucks that Rob, Stephen, Chris and Logan are going.


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## Black Flame Zealot

MerricB said:


> I had this horrible thought when I saw you'd posted, Chris, that you'd been "let go" as well. Thank goodness that's not the case!
> 
> But that doesn't change how much it sucks that Rob, Stephen, Chris and Logan are going.




Nope, I'm still here, and still working hard, trying to get things in place for 2010.


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## Lord Karsus

Shemmy said:
			
		

> Working for the government has its own drawbacks as well. For all the pitfalls in the corporate world, I'd have elective surgery before working for a government agency again.



-Ah, having incompetent bosses isn't THAT bad.


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## The Little Raven

CharlesRyan said:


> I can probably be forgiven for feeling that WotC's attitude toward their employees is somewhat cavalier.




It appears that this began back in the 1990s, from what I can gather from various sources, such as the Death of the Minotaur article on Salon.com. That's when WotC started its big push for brand management (Disney was their idol in that regard) and brought in consultants all the time to "improve" things.


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## Holy Bovine

Hairfoot said:


> HasbroWotC fully deserves greater scrutiny of its hiring and firing than smaller publishers.  It dominates the RPG industry, publishes the hobby's flagship game and, as others have noted, is riding the success of its newest product line.
> 
> If a tiny publisher with half a dozen employees sacks someone, it's most likely in order to stay viable.  HasbroWotC doesn't have that excuse , and regular Christmas lay-offs look like outright bastardry.  If it's not, an explanation should be forthcoming to customers.




So why, exactly, can't WotC layoff people again?  They owe something to the _customers_?  I really can't wrap my head around this.  Small companies can let people go to stay viable but larger ones can't?  Are large companies immune to recessions?  What a bizarre double standard.


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## Snoweel

Holy Bovine said:


> So why, exactly, can't WotC layoff people again?  They owe something to the _customers_?  I really can't wrap my head around this.  Small companies can let people go to stay viable but larger ones can't?  Are large companies immune to recessions?  What a bizarre double standard.




Ridiculous isn't it?

I don't think people realise that these "CORPORATIONS" are the only entities that will provide for us in our retirements, now that pensions are a thing of the past.

I mean, even just staying viable isn't enough. If the value of a company doesn't grow faster than inflation then I'm better off hiding my savings under my mattress and hoping it's enough to pay the bills when I'm too old to work.

And if some 'artists' have to get a real job (as opposed to the dream job they're currently in) and start doing their hobby for free like the rest of us then I'm ok with that too.

I'd rather have some dignity in retirement and like it or not, our retirement plans are tied up in publicly traded companies.


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## Jack99

Shemeska said:


> Working for the government has its own drawbacks as well. For all the pitfalls in the corporate world, I'd have elective surgery before working for a government agency again.




Did they screw up your last boob-job or what?


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## delericho

Holy Bovine said:


> So why, exactly, can't WotC layoff people again?  They owe something to the _customers_?  I really can't wrap my head around this.  Small companies can let people go to stay viable but larger ones can't?  Are large companies immune to recessions?  What a bizarre double standard.




WotC have a set of layoffs at this time almost every year, recession or no. This suggests that it's either a matter of policy for them to clear out a bunch of people annually, or they are so badly managed that they have to do so every year just to stay viable. Neither is a good thing.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

delericho said:


> WotC have a set of layoffs at this time almost every year, recession or no. This suggests that it's either a matter of policy for them to clear out a bunch of people annually, or they are so badly managed that they have to do so every year just to stay viable. Neither is a good thing.



Why does it have to be bad management if they do it this way? Maybe they found it the most cost-effective way to deal with "spikes" in their business - there are times each year where they need to do more work (maybe for preparing a new major release like D&D 4 itself, or their newest set of core rules), and their are times where they do not. 

Unless of course it is bad management to have something like "big releases" each year.


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## wedgeski

delericho said:


> WotC have a set of layoffs at this time almost every year, recession or no. This suggests that it's either a matter of policy for them to clear out a bunch of people annually, or they are so badly managed that they have to do so every year just to stay viable. Neither is a good thing.



Another possibility to consider is that this is the policy which has kept the D&D business viable this long. I seem to recall an insider (Monte Cook?) blogging or posting at some point that senior designers were often let go when the salary they started commanding outweighed what WotC saw as their value to the product.

Now I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with this (okay, actually, I disagree strongly with this, but I'm not running the business), but we have to consider the possibility that keeping designers of Reynolds, Cook, and Tweet's pedigree on-board forever might squeeze the margins of an already niche market to breaking point.


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## delericho

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Why does it have to be bad management if they do it this way?




It was an either/or.

If it is their policy to lay off employees every year before Christmas, then that's not bad management as such, just a rather sucky policy.

If, however, they are forced to lay off employees every year before Christmas in order to remain viable, then that is a sign of bad management.


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## evilref

Snoweel said:


> Ridiculous isn't it?
> 
> 
> And if some 'artists' have to get a real job (as opposed to the dream job they're currently in) and start doing their hobby for free like the rest of us then I'm ok with that too.



This has to be a very badly thought out troll...surely?

I.... yeah, not worth going into the many ways this is wrong and insulting.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

> This has to be a very badly thought out troll...surely?
> 
> I.... yeah, not worth going into the many ways this is wrong and insulting.



There is a report button for when you really believe it could be a troll.
And there is a quote button if you want to discuss the content of the post. 

Better not to mix these things.


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## Relique du Madde

Snoweel said:


> Ridiculous isn't it?
> 
> I don't think people realise that these "CORPORATIONS" are the only entities that will provide for us in our retirements, now that pensions are a thing of the past.




You obviously are not a union man or a politician in California, 'cause their some of their pensions are to die for (as in people get paid up to 60-75% of their final years pay ANNUALLY regardless of whether they end up staying retired or seek reemployment 6 months later).


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## evilref

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> There is a report button for when you really believe it could be a troll.
> And there is a quote button if you want to discuss the content of the post.
> 
> Better not to mix these things.




I'm sure many people are in need of patronising somewhere, maybe you could go help them.


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## AllisterH

There _IS_ a way that WOTC could have a policy where it doesn't have an annual layoff policy.

Either freeze salaries OR hire freelancers OR a combination of the two.

Of course, both of those have their own drawbacks as well...(As someone who has been a freelancer/contractor in an entirely different field..I hated it with a passion)


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## Relique du Madde

AllisterH said:


> There _IS_ a way that WOTC could have a policy where it doesn't have an annual layoff policy.
> 
> Either freeze salaries OR hire freelancers OR a combination of the two.
> 
> Of course, both of those have their own drawbacks as well...(As someone who has been a freelancer/contractor in an entirely different field..I hated it with a passion)



Or they could go for an entirely web based buisness model for their 'print' products, thus getting rid of their printing fees, or they could cut the number of products they release each year or raise prices.

Problem is, which option would be acceptable to their employees and which would be acceptable to the consumer?


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

evilref said:


> I'm sure many people are in need of patronising somewhere, maybe you could go help them.






Spoiler



I am just saying. Don't feed them. And if there is no one to feed, there was probably someone insulted in the proces. [/patron]


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## Snoweel

evilref said:


> This has to be a very badly thought out troll...surely?
> 
> I.... yeah, not worth going into the many ways this is wrong and insulting.




No more insulting than yelling TROLL!!!! at anybody who says something you don't like eh?

Don't worry mate, I know exactly where the Report button is.


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## Snoweel

Relique du Madde said:


> You obviously are not a union man or a politician in California, 'cause their some of their pensions are to die for (as in people get paid up to 60-75% of their final years pay ANNUALLY regardless of whether they end up staying retired or seek reemployment 6 months later).




Wow, they should really attract the top applicants then shouldn't they?

Just like WotC should only attract employees who are prepared for the possibility of a Christmas time layoff.


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## CharlesRyan

The Little Raven said:


> It appears that this began back in the 1990s, from what I can gather from various sources, such as the Death of the Minotaur article on Salon.com. That's when WotC started its big push for brand management (Disney was their idol in that regard) and brought in consultants all the time to "improve" things.




Don't be too dismissive of things like this.

In the mid-90s, WotC went from being a garage operation to a 700 MILLION dollar company in the space of a few years. From three or four people to over 700. Can you imagine trying to ride that bronco?

I've long felt that the company's single most impressive feat has nothing to do with game design. It's managing that explosion without completely falling to shambles.


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## Umbran

Snoweel said:


> Don't worry mate, I know exactly where the Report button is.





And yet, you went with public confrontation anyway?  Not exactly the wisest move.

Folks, cut out the bickering and poking at each other already.


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## Desdichado

Hairfoot said:


> If a tiny publisher with half a dozen employees sacks someone, it's most likely in order to stay viable.  Hasbro doesn't have that excuse, and regular Christmas lay-offs look like outright bastardry.  If it's not, an explanation should be forthcoming to customers.



If anyone deserves an explanation, it's the person being sacked.  The customers shouldn't expect anything.


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## Herschel

Relique du Madde said:


> You obviously are not a union man or a politician in California, 'cause their some of their pensions are to die for (as in people get paid up to 60-75% of their final years pay ANNUALLY regardless of whether they end up staying retired or seek reemployment 6 months later).




But it is all trade-offs, is it not? Generally speaking one takes a slightly smaller pay scale (or pays union dues) in order to have (in theory) more security and said pension in the public sector. 

Then the question in the niche market is 'would I rather design for a game I love and the inherent risks, or write policy manuals or work with peoples' feces?'


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## diaglo

The 2008 thread was started by Eric Noah and was closed on Dec 8, 2008. so I didn't bump it. but you can certainly find more there on past goings on.

it seems Dec 4 is the usual day for the announcement. at least when we look at the 2005, 2006, 2008 and now 2009 threads.


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## Mournblade94

Really layoff's at Christmas is no surprise.  I know quite a few people withing the last 20 years taht had their layoffs at christmas.  I think it is just when a lot of companies end their fiscal year.


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## Paul_Klein

This is just me speculating, but I wonder if layoffs before Christmas are intentional (for many companies, not just WotC) for other reasons. Christmas is generally time of getting together with family, which is often times just what a recently layed-off person might need - for support and advice. Kinda like the whole, "we do lay offs on Fridays because the weekend helps minimize incidents," thing. 

Sure, it's also generally a time of increased spending, but I'm sure each person layed-off got some sort of severance package, so the little ones can still have toys under the tree and all. 

Anyway, continue on.


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## rjdafoe

Holy Bovine said:


> So why, exactly, can't WotC layoff people again? They owe something to the _customers_? I really can't wrap my head around this. Small companies can let people go to stay viable but larger ones can't? Are large companies immune to recessions? What a bizarre double standard.




I think there would be less scrutiny if this was not a yearly occurance.  

If the conpany was being run correctly why do they need a yearly layoff to be "viable".  This happened when there was no recessions as well, so you can't attribute it to that.


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## billd91

rjdafoe said:


> I think there would be less scrutiny if this was not a yearly occurance.
> 
> If the conpany was being run correctly why do they need a yearly layoff to be "viable".  This happened when there was no recessions as well, so you can't attribute it to that.




There are well and appropriately run companies that go through annual layoff cycles - but they have the honesty to call it seasonal employment.


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## TheAuldGrump

As an aside - does anybody know if _Hasbro_ has a similar routine of letting folks go (esp. design staff) just before Christmas every year? If not, then....

The Auld Grump


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## darjr

Rob Heinsoo - Death & Freelance


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## Hairfoot

Holy Bovine said:


> So why, exactly, can't WotC layoff people again?  They owe something to the _customers_?  I really can't wrap my head around this.  Small companies can let people go to stay viable but larger ones can't?  Are large companies immune to recessions?  What a bizarre double standard.




They can lay people off.  They'll just be regarded as soulless profiteers.

Small companies are in it for the love of the hobby.  No-one ever said, "Hey!  I want to be rich. Let's cash in and start a tiny RPG publishing business!".  Global corporations like Hasbro, though, are in it for the cash.  They acquire successful businesses in small industries and gear them to maximise profit, regardless of what that does to the product.

If Hasbro buys out a cute little boutique cupcake shop employing six master pastry chefs, and then judges that the kitchen can produce generic spongecake for Walmart, it will become another spongecake factory among thousands, employing three mindless lever-pullers to produce an endless mound of low-value crap.

Is that what you want for Dungeons & Dragons?

D&D is the product of artists, and Hasbro has the resources to invest in artists, rather than cutting back and turning the D&D headquarters into another cog/wheel factory.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hairfoot said:


> They can lay people off.  They'll just be regarded as soulless profiteers.



Soulless profiteers that keep giving me products I like.

Maybe souls are overrated?



> Small companies are in it for the love of the hobby.  No-one ever said, "Hey!  I want to be rich. Let's cash in and start a tiny RPG publishing business!".



No one ever said, "Hey! I want steady employment and good wages. Let's cash in and become a RPG developer!" 



> Global corporations like Hasbro, though, are in it for the cash.  They acquire successful businesses in small industries and gear them to maximise profit, regardless of what that does to the product.



Even it means that they can continue to produce profitable products forever instead of having to close business.

Without a profitable business, there might not be layoffs. But that's just because you won't hire much anyway. Freelancers and contract workers are all you can afford. 

Profitable business is not the problem. It's the requirement.


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## Hairfoot

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Soulless profiteers that keep giving me products I like.




That's great for you.  Just realise that if the largest segment of the market wants to play F.A.T.A.L combined with Monopoly, then that's what D&D will become, regardless of history or vision.

What you like won't matter a fig.




Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> No one ever said, "Hey! I want steady employment and good wages. Let's cash in and become a RPG developer!"




That's _precisely _what they said.  The RPG industry is composed of people who hoped to quit their day jobs and make a living out of publishing games, even though it won't make them rich.




Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Profitable business is not the problem. It's the requirement.




Profitable business is the requirement.  Ruthless penny-pinching and debasement of the industry is not.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hairfoot said:


> That's great for you.  Just realise that if the largest segment of the market wants to play F.A.T.A.L combined with Monopoly, then that's what D&D will become, regardless of history or vision.
> 
> What you like won't matter a fig.



Yup. If everyone goes crazy, everyone goes crazy. No matter how sane I remain.

Doesn't mean it's likely.



> That's _precisely _what they said.  The RPG industry is composed of people who hoped to quit their day jobs and make a living out of publishing games, even though it won't make them rich.



No, that is not precisely what they said. It is more like "I rather do something I love than something I like, even if it means my job security is worse and I don't earn as much money."

Doesn't make layoffs or unemployment more enjoyable, of course. 



> Profitable business is the requirement.  Ruthless penny-pinching and debasement of the industry is not.



Hyperbole is certainly a requirement to fuel online discussions, it seems.


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## AllisterH

You do realize that unlike a small business, Hasbro is not playing with their own money but OTHER people's money, right?


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## ProfessorCirno

Ah, I see we're at the stage where all of capitalism is evil.  It's like I'm really back on a college campus!


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## Bugleyman

...and I see we're at the stage where anything done in the name of capitalism is good, and responsibility to shareholders somehow absolves corporations of all other accountability.


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## Jack99

ProfessorCirno said:


> Ah, I see we're at the stage where all of capitalism is evil.  It's like I'm really back on a college campus!




You guys surely are behind. That's highschool over here. Once you go to college, its all about the money.. 


I am with MR - If WotC (evil) ways allow them to profit enough to stay afloat longer, it means there is a good chance that they will keep providing me with my entertainment of choice, just as they have now for a decade. Which means I can live with how they treat their employees. Doesn't mean I do not feel sorry for the great guys who have been fired, merely that I won't lose any sleep over it.


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## Mark

Bugleyman said:


> ...and I see we're at the stage where anything done in the name of capitalism is good, and responsibility to shareholders somehow absolves corporations of all other accountability.






Not everyone thinks that way though I find it ashame that some who do think that way cannot spend the holidays babysitting the kids of a few siblings/cousins who fell to layoffs and need to search for work.  That might shift them away from the "It's just business" mantra that helps keep it impersonal for them.


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## Umbran

Thirteen pages, and we are now down to sniping and people trying to make others feel bad.  I think we're done here.


----------

