# [GUIDE] The Art of Battleraging



## Lejaun

*Dwarven guide of the Battleragers*

Contents:
1.       Introduction
2.       Stats and Races
3.       Class Features
4.       Path Features
5.       Skills, Backgrounds and Feats
6.       Weapons and Armor
7.       Multi-classing
8.       Sample builds


*Introduction*:
Welcome to one of the most suicidal classes out there.  A properly played battlerager is a lot of fun, but don't expect to stand back and avoid danger with this build.

Color guide: 
*Gold* is your primary choice and is what you want to focus on the most.
*Turqoise* represents a great choice, just below the gold mark.
*Dark Blue* represents a solid choice that helps your character, but isn't a priority.
*Black *represents the middle of the road choice.  It's not going to hurt you, but it won't help you that much either.
*Purple* represents a weaker choice.  You'll want to avoid focusing on this unless you have something specific in mind.
*Red* represents the weakest choice, one that you should probably consider as a last resort to take.

*Stats*: 
You will be focusing on three stats above all else: STR, then CON, then DEX. 
*
Strength*:  This is your bread and butter stat.  A high STR improves your min/max damage, as well as increasing the chance your attacks or grapples succeed.
*
Constitution*:  You aren’t designed to stand back.  The Battlerager is an in-your-face class, and you are going to get hit….a lot. 
*
Dexterity*:  This is an important stat, but don’t worry about improving this past 14 unless you have stats to spare or decide to use a DEX build.  Spiked Armor has a maximum dexterity bonus 
of +2 to Armor Class, so 14 is as much as you’ll need.
*
Wisdom*:  Perception is a useful skill, both active and passive.  Survival also relies on WIS.  Not an important
*
Charisma*:  Intimidation is what puts this slightly above INT. 
*
Intelligence*:  You’re here to kick butt and take names.  Leave the investigating for the arcane classes.

*Races*:
Dwarf, dwarf, dwarf.  This class is dwarven exclusive unless your DM says otherwise.
The dwarf is built to be a Battlerager, regardless of which path you take.  You add +2 to your CON as a dwarven bonus.  You have darkvision, advantage against poison saving throws, and resistance against poison among other abilities.  These are all very useful racial traits.

*Gray Dwarf (Duergar)*:  It’s a tough battle between Mountain and Gray dwarves as to which one is better, and it may depend on your campaign.  Add +2 CON like all dwarves, plus +1 for STR for the duergar.  You also get to double your darkvision to 120 feet.  In addition, you have advantage on saving throws against illusions and against being charmed or paralyzed.  That is a huge bonus to make sure you stay raging.  You also get to cast Enlarge at 3rd level, which lets you become large (a factor for grappling), have advantage on STR checks and saving throws (so-so, you get that anyway if raging), and your weapons deal 1d4 extra damage, which is great. The downside is that you can't concentrate on Enlarge while raging.  You also can cast Invisibility at 5th level.  Spiked Armor has a disadvantage in stealth checks, however, so this ability is reduced somewhat.

So why wouldn’t you play a gray dwarf?  One single reason:  Sunlight Sensitivity.  Disadvantage on attack rolls and Perception Checks while in direct sunlight can be a huge negative feature if your campaign fights a lot in the day.  If you spend most of your time underground or adventuring at night, this effect is mostly ignored.  It’s the only thing that holds the gray dwarf from clearly being superior to the other two.

*Mountain Dwarf*:  In addition to your +2 dwarven CON, you also get to add +2 STR.  You just put +2 to two of your most important stats.  There isn’t much more you could ask for.

*Hill Dwarf*:  +2 to CON as all dwarves get, as well as +1 to WIS.   WIS doesn’t do much for you, so a hill dwarf is generally inferior to a mountain dwarf in stats.  Hill dwarfs do get +1 hitpoint per level, which is a nice perk, but still not enough to miss out on the mountain dwarf’s +2 STR.



*Class Features*:
*
Rage*:  Your key skill.  There are very few times you don’t want to be raging.  Advantage on STR checks and saving throws.  This ties in very well with the Battlerager armor when you grapple.  It also adds bonus damage to your STR melee attacks, which includes your spiked armor bonus attack.  Resistance to blunt, piercing, and slashing damage.  This is huge.  You’ll be the tip of the spear, charging into battle.  Reducing damage is one of the few things that will help keep you alive.
*
Unarmored Defense*:  Bleh.  You want to be wearing spiked armor.  No point in being a Battlerager without it.  You’ll mostly ignore this ability unless you lose all of your gear.
*
Reckless Attack*:  Advantage on STR melee attack rolls at the cost of giving your opponent advantage until your next turn on you.  Powerful ability, but it can be deadly to you.  Best used when you are in one on one combat or are in a must hit your enemy situation.
*
Danger Sense*:  Advantage on DEX saving throws against effects you can see.  Very useful considering you like to charge into battle.  If you chose to use a shield and the shield mastery feat, this gets even better.
*
Extra Attack*:  5th level can’t come soon enough.  Another attack is always useful.  Your STR bonus plus Rage bonus adds up when you have multiple attacks, even if you roll a 1 on the damage dice.
*
Fast Movement*:  Yes, yes, yes, yes !  Finally your little dwarven legs can keep up with the rest of the party.
*
Feral Instinct*:  Getting to attack before your opponents is always a bonus.  This is especially nice if you choose to grapple or shove a lot.
*
Brutal Critical*:  Battleragers get a bonus attack with spike armor.  In addition, you also have reckless attack.  Chances are you are going to get some critical hits, so an extra die of damage comes in handy.  This is a nice feature that you pick up at 9th, and it gets better at 13th and 17th level.
*
Relentless Rage*:  You are going to be taking as many hits as anyone in your party.  This 11th level skill is yet another way you’ll have a chance to survive to fight another day, giving you a chance to make a saving throw and drop to 1 hit point instead of dying.
*
Persistant Rage*:  The bane of all barbarians are DM’s who use tricks to make you lose your valuable rages.  At 15th level those tricks are going to be nearly impossible to play on you. 
*
Indomitable Might*:  Let’s just say that between having advantage on STR checks when raging, let alone this 18th level ability, there aren’t many chances you are going to lose STR battles.
*
Primal Champion*:  Your final ability.  This gives you +4 to STR and CON, your two most important statistics, as well as allowing you to reach a maximum of 24 in those scores.  Looks like it’s time to arm wrestle some giants…..unless you decide you are just going to bash in their faces instead with your newly found STR.

*Path Features*:
Dwarf only, unless your DM lifts this restriction.
*
Battlerager Armor*:  For 75 gold, you get armor that gives you 14 AC with a max DEX modifier of +2.  You also get disadvantage on Stealth checks.  In return, if you are wearing the armor and raging you can use your bonus action to attack with the armor.  This  attack uses STR to hit and add damage, as well as doing 1d4 piercing damage.  It also lets you deal 3 points of damage when you successfully grapple an opponent.  This feature is 99% of the reason you play a Battlerager.

Don’t underestimate the spiked armor attack.  Considering that it is a melee attack, you can add your STR and your Rage bonus to it, it makes the 1d4 dice roll much more impressive as a bonus action.  This spike attack is the number one reason why you want STR to be your primary stat.  A raging dwarf with 18th STR at level 4 (very doable with racial +STR bonus and level 4 stat bump), you are doing 7-10 points of damage every time you connect with your bonus action spike attack.
*
Reckless Abandon*:  6th level ability to let you gain temporary hit points (equal to your constitution bonus) if you are raging and reckless attack.  Not a huge amount of life, but considering you will almost always be taking attacks, everything helps.
*
Battlerager Charge*:  Lets you Dash as a bonus action if you are raging.  Useful ability to get those short dwarf legs moving and get into melee range, but considering you already get Fast Movement at 5th level, it’s not as useful as you’d like.
*
Spiked Retribution*:  This makes an opponent not want to attack you.  3 points of damage every time an opponent hits you with a melee attack and is within 5 feet if you are raging and not incapacitated.  Great ability, but it doesn’t come until 14th level.  The damage is a nice perk, but at this stage it’s probably too little too late to have a significant impact against powerful enemies.




*Skills, Backgrounds and Feats*:
*Skills:*
*Athletics*:  This comes in handy often and is one of the skills you’ll use most.
*
Acrobatics*:  Your DEX score will limit you, but this is a good skill to have if you like to do some crazy attacks, battlerager style.
*
Sleight of hand*:  Skip the tricks…just bash them instead
*
Stealth*:  Spiked armor….not so sneaky.  Skip
*
Arcana*:  Who cares about magic?
*
History*:  You have dwarven stone knowledge.  Everything else is pointless to you usually.
*
Investigation*:  Leave the investigating to the eggheads.  You are here to bash.
*
Nature*:  Sometimes useful, sometimes not.
*
Religion*:  Kill ‘em all, let someone sort them out while you skip this skill.
*
Animal handling*:  Not many cases where this skill comes in handy.
*
Insight*:  Your wisdom is bad.  Let others determine enemy intentions
*
Medicine*:   You kill, others heal.  Better than nothing, though.
*
Perception*:  One of the most valuable skills, no matter the class you play.
*
Survival*:  Seldom as useful as it seems it might be.
*
Deception*:  You smash, not lie.
*
Intimidation*:   The battlerager way.  What’s scarier than an angry dwarf in spikes?  Decent skill.
*
Performance*:  Skip.  You don’t entertain people.
*
Persuasion*:  Intimidation is more of your style, especially if DM’s let you use STR to roll on intimidation checks.


*Backgrounds*:
*Acolyte*:  A proficiency bonus to insight and access to free healing are the best features of this class for you.
*
Charlatan*:  You lose a lot of your key features without spiked armor on.  Disguising yourself is going to be tough unless you take off that armor.  Skip.
*
City Watch*:  Useful in city campaigns, and skills are decent with athletics and insight.
*
Clan Crafter*:  Free room and board is O.K.  Artisan tool proficiency already covered by being a dwarf, however.
*
Cloistered Schola*r:  What do you need library access for?
*
Courtier*:  A battlerager isn’t really a politician.  Skip in most campaigns.
*
Criminal*:  Stealth is not your focus.  Skip.
*
Entertainer*:  Acrobatics is a nice skill to add, but not much else here for you.
*
Faction Agent*:  Faction assistance is nice.  Not much else here for you.
*
Far Traveler*:  You already draw attention wearing spiked armor. 
*
Folk Hero*:  You already get the skills here, and the feature isn’t enough to be anything special.  Skip.
*
Guild Artisan*:  Gaining access to a place to smith might be useful should you need to replace your spiked armor.  Other than that, it’s not worth taking.
*
Hermit*:  Kind of a flavor background.  Medicine and religion skills should not be your concern.
*
Inherito*r:  I guess the value of this background depends on what your DM is willing to give you.
*
Knight of the Order*:  Shelter.  Doesn’t really fit your style, however.
*
Mercenary Veteran*:  Finding mercenary work is nice, but you could probably do that without this background.
*
Noble*:  Not too much gained here, and your persuasion checks aren’t worth taking this background.
*
Outlande*r:  Skills are useless, but ability to find food and fresh water is nice in outdoor campaigns.  Better than nothing.
*
Sage*:  You are a blood spiller, not a sage.  Skip.
*
Sailor*:  Getting proficiency in Perception makes up for you most likely having low wisdom.  Ships passage will rarely if ever be used, but useful if you ever do.
*
Soldier*:  One of the better feats for you.  Proficiency in athletics and intimidation is right up your alley.  Land vehicles has rare uses but is nice to have if you can use it.
*
Urban Bounty Hunter*:  It might be hard to hunt people down with your Stealth disadvantage armor.
*
Urchin*:  Sleight of hand and stealth are for sneaky classes, you ain’t that.
*
Uthgardt Tribe Membe*r:  Knowing the land is a nice feature, as is finding extra food and water.  Useless outside of your homelands, however.
*
Waterdhavian Noble*:  More room and board, but in style.  Skills don’t really fit your skillset.

*Feats*:
*Alert*: Nice to have a +5 bonus to initiative or be surprised, but stat increases and other feats are better choices to make.
*
Athlete*:  Let’s you get +1 STR or DEX (take STR usually), but the jumping and climbing isn’t hugely valuable to you.
*
Actor*:  Avoid.  No reason for you to pretend to be anything other than a one-man army.
*
Charger*:  Not as important at later levels considering you get Battlerager charge.  Dashing as a dwarf to make up for your lesser movement rate and then attacking with +5 to damage that same turn is a better than average feature, however.
*
Crossbow Expert*:  You are a spiked wrecking ball.  Leave the crossbows at home.
*
Defensive duelist*:  Wait, why are you using a finesse weapon as a barbarian?
*
Dual wielder*:  One of the better feats to take if you don’t like great weapons, but otherwise it’s ok to skip this one.  +1 to AC and ability to use heavier weapons isn’t too bad.
*
Dungeon Delver*:  You aren’t here to search for traps.  Your disadvantage on stealth rolls makes it unlikely you are scouting ahead of the party looking for traps.  Leave it to the rogues.
*
Durable.*  Constitution +1 is a nice perk, as are the hit point minimums if you play in a campaign where you roll for hitpoints.
*
Elemental Adapt*:  You don’t cast spells, so why would you want this?
*
Grappler*:  Sounds great initially, but you already get advantage on STR checks if you are raging, so this doesn’t add much to you.
*
Great Weapon Master*:  Not a bad feat if you use one, especially combined with reckless attack to make sure that if you use the -5 attack roll for +10 damage feature.
*
Healer*:  Your job is to make things dead.  Save the healing for other classes.
*
Heavily armored*:  No use other than +1 STR.  You use spiked armor (medium)
*
Heavy Armor Master*:  Same deal as above.  Shame you can’t use heavy armor and rage (damage resistance + reduction would be ridiculous)
*
Inspiring Leader*:  It’s doubtful you have much of a Charisma bonus.  Skip it.
*
Keen Mind*:  Intelligence isn’t your forte.  Skip it.
*
Lightly Armored*:  You already have the skill to use light and medium armor.  Skip it.
*
Linguist*:  Do you plan on talking to enemies or killing them?  Skip.
*
Lucky*:   By far one of the best feats.  Lets you recklessly attack (or save or whatever) without the downside.
*
Mage Slayer*:  Useful if you fight a lot of casters, useless if you don’t.
*
Magic Initiate*:  Raging doesn’t like casting, skip it.
*
Martial Adept*:  Pretty good feature for burst damage.  Stick to the maneuvers that let you attack and add superiority dice to the damage.
*
Medium Armor Maste*r:  Dexterity should probably be stat number three in priority, so chances are you won’t see as much of a benefit from this feat as you’d like.
*
Mobile*:  As a dwarf, the extra speed helps.  It doesn’t help enough to take it over stat increases though.
*
Moderately Armored*:  You can use medium armor and shields already.  Pass.
*
Mounted Combat*:  As amusing as a mounted dwarven battlerager is, you want to be on the ground in combat normally.  Skip.
*
Observant*:  You are here to cause blood to spill, not read lips.
*
Polearm master*: Pretty good feat, but the bonus attack isn’t much of a benefit considering you can spike armor attack.
*
Resilent*:  Skip.  Better off getting +1 to two stats instead unless you need the saving throw BADLY.
*
Ritual Caster*:  More of that useless casting stuff.
*
Savage Attacker*:  Nice little feat to make sure that you can maximize your weapons.  1d12 on a great axe can be rough if you roll a 1.  This gives you a chance to try for a 12 instead.
*
Sentinel*:  Solid feat that ties in well with you charging into the middle of your enemies.
*
Sharpshooter*:  You are a melee master, leave the bows to the elven rangers.
*
Shield Master*:  Very nice feat if you use a shield.  You already have advantage on many dexterity saving throws.  Adding your shield AC bonus to that roll and taking no damage in many cases if you succeed make this very valuable.  Probably the first feat you should take if you plan to use a shield.
*
Skilled*:  Bleh.  You are a killer, not a skill monkey.
*
Skulke*r:  Good luck sneaking with spiked armor.
*
Spell Sniper*:   Trash.  You don’t cast spells.
*
Tavern Brawler*:  Spiked armor attack pretty much makes this just a redundant feature.  Using a bonus action to grapple is nice, though.
*
Tough*:  Hitpoints are very important for a battlerager, but unless you are maxed out on Constitution, you should skip for awhile.
*
War Caster*:  Caster, caster, blah blah.
*
Weapon Master*:  You know plenty of weapons already.  This is basically just +1 STR or DEX.  Skip.

*Multi-Classing*:
The battlerager wants to be a single class.  Stat bonus increases, rage bonus increases, and proficiency (attack) increases make it worth it to stay one class. 
Spell casters are pretty much a no-no.  They don’t work well with rage. There are some useful spells, but you need to cast them before battle.  In most builds, you’ll want to skip.

*Bard*: The best bard features don’t work well with a battlerager.  You want to be using your bonus action with spike attacks, not inspiring people. 

*Cleric*:  If you add this class, War Domain is probably your best bet.  Adding +10 to an attack roll helps you hit without Reckless Attack (and its downside), especially if you use a feat like Great Weapon Mastery to add extra damage.

*Druid*:  Spiked armor doesn’t do much if you shapechange into an animal.

*Fighter*:  Specializing in Great Weapon Fighting or Two-Weapon Fighting can really up your damage output when raging and with a high STR, but remember that TWF is already pretty much covered by using spiked armor attacks instead.  Battlemasters add some useful maneuvers if you go to 3rd level.  Skip Eldritch knights.  Rage and casting don’t mix well.

*Monk*:  Monk speed is nice as a dwarf.  Unarmored defense is already covered as a barbarian, and the wisdom based monk defense isn’t going to help you much.  You also already have a bonus attack with spike armor.

*Paladin*:  Great Weapon Fighting and Defense are nice fighting styles to have.  Divine smite is also nice for damage, but spell casting isn’t your best style.
*
Ranger*:  Defense or Two-Weapon Fighting should be your fighting styles to take, but keep in mind that you already have a spike bonus attack you can use.  Colossus Slayer as a Hunter is nice.
  An animal companion for the beast master is more often a hindrance than a bonus.
*
Rogue*:  It’s hard to utilize sneak attack in spiked armor and with short dwarven legs.  Rogue fighting styles are the opposite of what you are about.
*
Sorceror*:  Spells? No thanks
*
Warlock*:  A blade pact is probably the best route to go if you take this class.    Thirsting blade is a nice invocation to have as well.  Best caster class for a battlerager.
*
Wizard*:  Move along, nothing to see here.

*Sample build*:
*
The classic barbarian*:  Take the biggest weapon you can get (Great Axe or sword or maul) and swing away.  Get your DEX to 14 and never worry about it again.  That will give you a 16 AC.  Getting your STR to 18 is your number one priority, followed by CON.  All other stats are pretty much fluff for you.  In most cases, you are going to want to skip feats at 4th level and instead get STAT increases.  This is most likely true for 8th level as well.  Stats for a battlerager trump anything feats do for you usually.

STR + Rage damage on your weapon and spike armor make you an offensive juggernaut.  If you are going to take a feat, take Great Weapon Master, as it works very well with Reckless Attack.  An enlarged Gray dwarf adds 1d4 damage as well with its weapons (but you can't be enlarged and raging), so you could theoretically deal 2d6 (weapon) + 4 damage (18 STR) + 2 damage (Rage) + 1d4 (spike attack) + 2 (Rage) + 4 (18 STR) for 15-28 damage if your regular attack and spike attack hit.  If you elect to be a giant gray dwarf instead of raging, you deal 2d6 (weapon) + 4 damage (18 STR) + 1d4 (Enlarged) + 1d4 (spike) + 1d4 (enlarged) + 4 (STR) for a total of 13-32 damage.


*The shield master*:  This build works well for a battlerager, especially early on.  Like the classic barbarian build, you are going to put your DEX to 14 and forget about it.  With a shield, you'll have an 18 AC at level 3  (14 AC spiked armor + 2 DEX + 2 shield AC).  The disadvantage you take is that you must use a weaker weapon.  This build relies heavily on STR if you want to put out consistent damage, so make sure you get it maxed ASAP.  Your damage output will be much weaker if you don't..  

Your main consistent damage is going to come from rage (or enlarge) and STR bonuses rather than just a brute high damage weapon.  Your damage output isn't bad, however, because the spikes do get STR damage bonus to them.  You can expect to do 1d8 (weapon) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) + 1d4 (spikes) + 4 (STR) + 2 (Rage) if a mountain or hill dwarf or gray dwarf raging for a total of 14-24 damage per 1 regular and 1 bonus attack.  If you choose to be enlarged as a gray dwarf, you will do 1d8 (weapon) + 4 (STR) + 1d4 (enlarged weapon) + 1d4 (spikes) + 4 (STR) + 1d4 (enlarged weapon) for a total of 12-28 damage.

With the shield master, you'll want to take stats at level 4.  You need that 18 STR and high CON asap to survive, as you will often be considered the party's tank.  Level 8 is trickier, and if you stay with the shield build it is a toss-up whether to take more stats or to take shield master.  A level 12 shield master build will almost always want to have that feat.  This is the tankiest build you can play, but at the cost of lower damage.

*Battle Options*:

_Round one of battle_:  Charge your opponent like a madman with your movement, use bonus action to rage, and either grapple your opponent (3 damage) or swing with your weapon.  Keep in mind that a raging barbarian has advantage on STR checks.

_Round two_:  Time to do some damage.  Swing with your main attack, swing with your bonus spike armor attack.  If you grappled, maintain that grapple and shove your opponent prone. 

_Round three_:  Rinse and repeat if you are doing damage first.  If you grappled and shoved your opponent prone, you now have them at disadvantage on the ground.  Time to smash !

Your group encounters a boss and his underlings-  Charge the boss, rage and grapple him.  Knock him prone if possible so he has a speed of zero while prone and grappled.  Let your party wipe up the underlings while you keep the boss occupied.  This strategy works well with the shield battlerager, due to his higher AC and making the boss attack with disadvantage for being prone.

Be creative with your attacks.  Some DMs will give you a lot of space to do some crazy maneuvers.  WWE is an excellent fighting style to emulate.  Grapple your opponent and body slam him off of a small cliff or drop.  A heavy dwarf in spiked armor landing on top of his foe has to hurt !

Choosing to be a gray dwarf has it's advantages, but remember that you lose the biggest advantage a barbarian has if you choose to use Enlarge instead of Rage.  Rage gives you a higher minimum damage, but Enlarge has a slightly higher damage maximum.  The biggest problem with Enlarge is that you can't rage and concentrate on the spell.  This means no rage bonus of having resistance to piercing, slashing, and blunt weapons.  You can expect that sooner than later the non-resistance is going to catch up to you as you take full damage from melee attacks.


----------



## Lejaun

*Edited in a change:  You can't maintain concentration on Enlarge while raging.  This changes the value of the Duergar as well as damage output.


----------



## WanderingMystic

I would personally rate a 1-3 level dip into fighter as begin blue, not just black. As a Battlerager you are not using your Con modifier for your AC so the +4 Strength and +4 Constitution at 20th level is not as important as it is for other Barbarians so multi classing is a much more valid option than other types of Barbarians.

Very nice guide for a path that most people overlook due to it's reliance on armor.


----------



## Blue

I'm wondering about multiclass ranger 3.  (Well, 4 for ASI.)  Fighting Style gives a boost to AC (none of the others really fit), you get some casting for when you aren't ranging (yum, goodberries), and Hunter has some interesting options.  Giant Killer could help shore up against opponents too large to grapple well.  Horde Breaker can add an extra attack around against another adjacent opponent that doesn't use your bonus action.  But that takes a 13 Wisdom.


----------



## Lejaun

WanderingMystic said:


> I would personally rate a 1-3 level dip into fighter as begin blue, not just black. As a Battlerager you are not using your Con modifier for your AC so the +4 Strength and +4 Constitution at 20th level is not as important as it is for other Barbarians so multi classing is a much more valid option than other types of Barbarians.
> 
> Very nice guide for a path that most people overlook due to it's reliance on armor.




Valid point, Wandering Mystic.  I myself prefer not multi-classing, but it certainly has its value.


----------



## Lejaun

Blue said:


> I'm wondering about multiclass ranger 3.  (Well, 4 for ASI.)  Fighting Style gives a boost to AC (none of the others really fit), you get some casting for when you aren't ranging (yum, goodberries), and Hunter has some interesting options.  Giant Killer could help shore up against opponents too large to grapple well.  Horde Breaker can add an extra attack around against another adjacent opponent that doesn't use your bonus action.  But that takes a 13 Wisdom.




I'm unsure about rangers.  The abilities it can add are useful, especially if you choose defense for a shield build (AC 19 with no magical bonus is pretty decent for wearing medium armor), but the wisdom may be a steep cost for some characters.  Rangers would be a must-have top choice to multi-class into if you could use Hunter's Mark while raging.  Adding +1d6 every time you hit with normal attack(s) and bonus spike armor would be so nice.  Damn rage and concentration!

Other than that, spells would pretty much just be Goodberries usually for the healing.  The Hunter options all work nice as well with a battlerager.

It's just the wisdom that hangs me up and doesn't match with my play style.  I feel strongly that a battlerager wants STR 18-20 above all else as quickly as possible.  Dex needs to get you that +2 AC bonus (14), but can be ignored after that.  All remaining efforts go into the very valuable Constitution.  This class begs to be played aggressively and on the front lines, so you need all the HP you can get, even with rage resistance.

My battlerager group uses the 15,14,13,12,10,8 PH method for stats, but if you have acceptable stats from rolling, ranger multi-classing will certainly give you some nice choices to work with.  Mountain dwarves with their +2 STR and +2 CON should help some in freeing up some stats for ranger WIS.


----------



## Z. H. Darkstar

Slight correction needs to be made to your damage example under Spiked Armor. The damage range would be 7-10. Other than that, solid guide.


----------



## the_move

WanderingMystic said:


> I would personally rate a 1-3 level dip into fighter as begin blue, not just black. As a Battlerager you are not using your Con modifier for your AC so the +4 Strength and +4 Constitution at 20th level is not as important as it is for other Barbarians so multi classing is a much more valid option than other types of Barbarians.
> 
> Very nice guide for a path that most people overlook due to it's reliance on armor.




The increase in Con grants you 2 more temp HP via Reckless Abandon (up to 7 per round if being reckless) along an additional 40 HP to your total and adds to your Con Save. The increase in STR grants you a better hit chance and more damage, probably more than you could gain from Battlemaster during a busy day with not many rests, as well as better athletics. Keep in mind we are talking about practically four ASIs all at once here!!! Unless you have some very rare magic items that increase both your strength and constitution beyond those benchmarks this capstone is really mighty.

What do you get for 3 lvls of fighter?
- Action Surge once per rest. Pretty nice, but dependent on the amount of rests the party takes (warlock is your best friend on this matter). 
- a d10+3 Second Wind per rest 
- a Fighting Style 
- some maneuvers along an amount of 4 d8 superiority die per rest.

you further lose one ASI/feat (with Primal Champion that makes 5 then and that's pretty bad) and Indomitable Might (not that important).

IMHO Feral Instinct should be rated higher, since not only does it grant you advantage on initiative checks, but also provides a mechanic similar to the Alert feat. As long as you are able to enter a rage you can act normally during a surprise round which means technically you are not surprised at all. It also makes Wisdom less of a neccessity.


----------



## Lejaun

the_move said:


> The increase in Con grants you 2 more temp HP via Reckless Abandon (up to 7 per round) along an additional 40 HP to your total and adds to your Con Save. The increase in STR grants you a better hit chance and more damage, probably more than you could gain from Battlemaster during a long fight, as well as better athletics. Keep in mind we are talking about practically four ASIs all at once here!!! Unless you have some very rare magic items that increase both your strength and constitution beyond those benchmarks this capstone is really mighty.
> 
> IMHO Feral Instinct should be rated higher, since not only does it grant you advantage on initiative checks, but also provides a mechanic similar to the Alert feat. As long as you are able to enter a rage you can act normally during a surprise round which means technically you are not surprised at all. It also makes Wisdom less of a neccessity.
> 
> What do you get for 3 lvls of fighter?
> Action Surge once per rest. Pretty nice, but dependent on the amount of rests the party takes (warlock is your best friend on this matter)
> a d10+3 Second Wind per rest
> a Fighting Style
> some maneuvers along a couple of 4 d8 superiority dices per rest.
> 
> you further lose one ASI/feat (with Primal Champion that makes 5 then and that's pretty bad) and Indomitable Might (not that bad).




Good points.  I'm personally convinced that the battlerager is one class that benefits the most from being a single class.  Multi-class benefits are there for the short term, but overall I'd prefer to just have a level 20 battlerager over other combinations.  Having a 24 STR and CON without needing magic items is more powerful than some realize, I think.


----------



## WanderingMystic

Over all at 20th level action surge and fighting style balance out the loss of +4 strength. Using second wind covers about 65% of the hp loss from +4 Con (you are still 2 points lower on your con save). That leave the full class barbarian with Indomitable Might, unlimited rages (I'm used to only 6 combats per day so this to me is a moot point) and an ASI, compared to one tool proficiency, 4 battle dice d8, and 3 maneuvers. Over all i feel that they are balanced, dipping fighter gives you a little more damage while staying barbarian gives you more surviveability. The main benefit I find from dipping fighter is that you do not have to wait until level 20 to get all this extra damage and health, instead you get it at a much earlier level so it is more applicable over the coarse of your characters life.


----------



## the_move

WanderingMystic said:


> Over all at 20th level action surge and fighting style balance out the loss of +4 strength. Using second wind covers about 65% of the hp loss from +4 Con (you are still 2 points lower on your con save). That leave the full class barbarian with Indomitable Might, unlimited rages (I'm used to only 6 combats per day so this to me is a moot point) and an ASI, compared to one tool proficiency, 4 battle dice d8, and 3 maneuvers. Over all i feel that they are balanced, dipping fighter gives you a little more damage while staying barbarian gives you more surviveability. The main benefit I find from dipping fighter is that you do not have to wait until level 20 to get all this extra damage and health, instead you get it at a much earlier level so it is more applicable over the coarse of your characters life.




You are clearly ignoring some points. +4 strength is +2 to hit and damage. The +2 to hit makes the use of Great Weapon Mastery (-5 to hit, +10 damage) even more appealing, especially with Recklessness. Those 4 d8 superiority die (each only fuels a single damage roll) totally lose out on +12 damage (more strength + GWM) on each successful attack. 

With +4 Con (24 total) you can achieve 7 temp HP per round (as long as you are being reckless), instead of 5 and a meager d10+3 (average 9) per rest. Also Second Wind requires a bonus action to trigger, so one less extra attack with spiked armor, which will hurt your damage output. There goes a d4+7, or even d12+17 if you manage to kill/critically hit a creature during your turn (GWM). You have a total of 285 HP and lvl 20 instead of 242 HP (3 lvls of fighter, otherwise it would be 245) and you have it easier to succeed on Relentless Rage a second, a third or even a fourth time, especially since you saved one more ASI/feat (lvl19) to choose Lucky. When it comes to resting it's 20x d12+7 vs  17 x d12+5 + 3x d10+5. 

And infinite rage also means infinite Feral Instinct.

Of course this will all be redundant if you quit playing your character after reaching lvl 20. If your character continues on some kind of epic campaign (you can still acquire items instead of lvls), you should take this into consideration.


----------



## WanderingMystic

I do agree that if you are playing an epic level game going 20 levels of barbarian is amazing, no doubt about it. My only statement was that if you are not going to hit level 20 a three level dip in fighter is worth it.

Even at level 20 the barbarian with a battlemaster dip is doing  the same amount of damage as a full barbarian assuming 2 short rest and 24 rounds of combat spread over 6-8 combats.  If you go less round of combat then the fighter dip wins out, if you go more rounds of combat the full barbarian wins. Don't forget Riposte with if missed (granted if you are reckless then that wont happen that often) you get another attack.

I had totally forgotten about the  temp hp being replenishes every round for some reason i keep reading it as when you rage not when you recklessly attack. There is no way dipping in fighter can be as sturdy as a full barbarian and I never thought they could but I did not realize just how far off they were due to the extra temp hp.


----------



## the_move

I do not know, how you have been calgulating 24 rounds of combat and 2 short rests for the lvl 17 barb/3 battlemaster to be on par with the lvl 20 barb. Yes, the battlemaster with riposte may have an additional 12 reaction attacks with an extra d8 damage (superiority die). But having 4 STR less than the full barb will take 10% off of his hit chance in comparison. and this will even hurt more, if GWM (-5 hit/+10 damage) is used on a regular basis...If you had one ASI/feat left to gain this as multiclass, since - as being - said you lose 1 ASI/feat along the way. Either GWM, or lucky, or one of the 3 ASIs in order to increase STR and CON to MAX, which already requires a mountain dwarf to accomplish. Picking GWM and Lucky and leaving CON at 18 will take another 20 off of your total health pool and reduces your THP gain through Reckless Abandon to 4/round)

Full prof and 20 STR gives you a +11 bonus to hit. Full prof and 24 STR gives you a +13 Bonus to hit. Substract the GWM penalty and the Battlemaster multiclass is left with only his prof bonus, whereas the full barb has a +8 to hit left. Even and especially with advantage you will notice a difference, particularly against creatures with an AC beyond 17.

Also the multiclass only has 6 rages, covering 6 battles per long rest and only if these last 10 rounds or less. Having just 1 more battle during the day and/or maybe longer lasting battles will let you fall behind significantly, as you lose all benefits from raging (plus Reckless Abandon).


----------



## Lejaun

I'll state that personally (no offense to anyone) that I find it kind of silly to look at a class as better or worse for multi-classing or not at 20th level.  Most characters rarely ever get that far, and if they do it is likely that they are going to be relatively well off with magic items to complement and fill in any weaknesses they have.  That said, I still look at the various possibilities and rank them myself for whatever I play.

Looking at a Fighter 3/Barbarian 17 I think it's good to look at what a build would actually be.  For sake of comparing, I will use a mountain dwarf for each class and utilize the standard array in PHB for stats.  I'm also going to ignore INT, WIS, and CHA as they don't have much of an impact on combat effectiveness of a barbarian battlerager.  I'm also going to use ASI instead of feats to keep the comparisons the same.

15,14,13,12,10,8 are our stats. 
 14 goes to DEX, as that's the highest that we get an AC bonus from using Spiked Armor. 
 15 goes to STR
13 goes to CON starting off
Add +2 STR and +2 CON for a mountain dwarf.  We now have this starting off:

STR:  17 (+3 bonus)
DEX:  14 (+2 bonus)
CON:  15 (+2 bonus)
Hitpoints:  14 // (12 + 2)
AC:  14 (can't use spiked armor yet)
To Hit:  +5
To damage: +3  
----------------------------------------------------------------
At level 4, a pure barbarian gets +2 to his stats due to ASI (or a feat).  That changes us to the following:
STR:  18 (+4 bonus)
DEX:  14 (+2 bonus)
CON:  16 (+3 bonus)
Hitpoints:  45  // (12 + (7*3) + (4*3)
AC:  16 (AC 14 Spiked armor + 2 DEX)
To Hit:  +6
To damage: +4

Considering that the Battlerager is our main class, we'll make it Barbarian 3, Fighter 1 at 4th level.  That means no ASI or feat this go around.
STR: 17 (+3)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 15 (+2)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints:  40 // (12 + (7*2) + 6 = (2*4)
To Hit:  +5
To damage: +3

Gain Great Weapon Fighting or Defense fighting style, Gain Second Wind (Heal 1d10 + 1)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Level 8 barbarian, another time for a feat or ASI
STR: 18 (+4)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 18 (+4)
AC: 16
Hitpoints: 93 // (12 + (7*7) + (8*4)
To Hit:  +7
To damage:  + 4

Level 8 (Barbarian 5, fighter 3)
STR:  18 (+4 bonus)
DEX:  14 (+2 bonus)
CON:  16 (+3 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints:  82 // 12 + (7*4) + (6*3) + (8*3)
To Hit: +7
To Damage:  +4

Keep Second Wind (Heal 1d10 + 3 hp)
Gain Battlemaster w/3 manuevers, Action Surge
No access Feral Instinct and Reckless Abandon because you are not high enough level as a barbarian battlerager yet.
--------------------------------------
Level 12 (Barbarian 12)
STR: 20 (+5 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 18 (+4)
AC 16
Hitpoints: 137 // 12 + (7*11) + (12*4)
To Hit:  +9
To Damage:  +5

(Barbarian 9, Fighter 3)
STR:  18 (+4 bonus)
DEX:  14 (+2 bonus)
CON:  18 (+4 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints:  134 // 12 + (7*8) + (6*3) + (12*4)
To Hit: +8
To Damage:  +4
No access to Relentless Rage or Battlerager charge yet.
-----------------------------------------
Level 16 (Barbarian 16)
STR: 20 (+5 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 20 (+5)
AC 16
Hitpoints: 197 // 12 + (7*15) + (16*5)
To Hit:  +10
To Damage:  +5

(Barbarian 13, Fighter 3)
STR:  20 (+5 bonus)
DEX:  14 (+2 bonus)
CON:  18 (+4 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints:  178 // 12 + (7*12) + (6*3) + (16*4)
To Hit: +10
To Damage:  +5
Gains access to Relentless Rage
No access to Persistent Rage or Spiked Retribution yet.
--------------------
End result at level 20:

Level 20 (Barbarian 20)
STR: 24 (+7 bonus)
DEX: 14 (+2)
CON: 24 (+7)
AC 16
Hitpoints: 285 // 12 + (7*19) + (20*7)
To Hit:  +13
To Damage:  +7
Primal champion's +4 to STR and CON means no need to use ASI.  Barbarian can take a feat here with no real penalty to stats.

(Barbarian 17, Fighter 3)
STR:  20 (+5 bonus)
DEX:  14 (+2 bonus)
CON:  20 (+5 bonus)
AC: 16 or 17
Hitpoints: 209  // 12 + (7*17) + (6*3) + (12*5)
To Hit: +11
To Damage:  +5
No access to Indomitable Might or Primal Champion
Has access to Fighting style (Great Weapon Fighting or Defense top choices)
Has access to Second Wind (heal 1d10 + 3 HP)
Has access to Action surge
Has access to Battle Master fighter arch-type with 4 d8superiority dice and know 3 maneuvers


----------



## Lejaun

Hopefully I didn't butcher the stats.

Looking at level 20, a pure barbarian will have about 76 more hit points, +2 to hit and +2 to damage, access to Primal Champion and Indomitable Might class features, and have either +2 ASI to distribute to other stats or have a feat that the 17/3 would not have.
A level 17 barbarian / level 3 fighter may have +1 AC or Great Weapon Fighting, be able to heal 1d10 + 3 HP, have action surge, and have 4 (d8) superiority dice on which to spend on 3 known maneuvers.  

The multi-class also has periods where it is behind on HP or takes longer to get barbarian and battlerager features as it levels up.

Now you have to decide which fits you best.  It might make more sense to go 16 barbarian, 4 fighter just to get the ASI/feat from 4 levels of fighter.


----------



## WanderingMystic

[Great sword with GWF = 9 +5(str)+4(rage) +10 (GWM) +.525 (crit damage average)=28.525 damage x2 attacks per round = 51.05 *.6 (.6% chance to hit+.25%from advantage -.25% from GWM)] =34.23 damage + [(11.5)bonus attack *.85%=9.775] = 44.005 damage per round
24 rounds =1056.12
Action surge x3 102.69
Superiority dice x12 =145.89 [54 min, 237.78 if all riposte]
for a total of 1304.7 or 54.36 per round

Great Axe [6.5 +7(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+1.125 (crit average)=28.625 *2 attacks = 57.25 *.7(chance to hit)]=40.075 +bonus(2.5+7(str)+4(rage)=13.5 *.95= 12.825] for a total of 52.9 damage per round.

In the games I have been playing for the last year we have only had a few combats last more than 2-3 rounds none longer than 6, your gaming group might vary so for our games the damage a fighter dip grants you grows to 58 damage per round vs the barbarians 54

edited; gave the great axe damage as if you had gwm so it is really slightly lower


----------



## the_move

Why using great sword on one and great axe on the other? Both can be used by either MC and pure barb. 

And now please do the math with only 1 Action surge and 4 superiority dice (no short rest during the whole adventuring day). Because I had sessions where this also happened.


----------



## Lejaun

I'd agree on using the same weapons for comparisons sake.


----------



## WanderingMystic

great sword or mauls do more damage if you have gwm, great axe dose slightly better if you don't so i was giving you the best outcome.

(Barbarian 17, Fighter 3)
Attack action: Maul/Sword 17.34 per attack x2 attacks [34.68]
                 : Axe 16.8 per attack x2 attacks [33.6]
Bonus action:10.2
Action Surge: 34.68
Superiority Dice: 34.3 per riposte or = 11.725 distracting strike average x2 each =[92.05]

9(maul)+5(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+.9 (crit)= 28.9 *.6 (hit chance)=17.34 x2 attacks = 34.68
7.5(axe)+5(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+1.5 (crit) = 28 *.6(hit chance)=16.8
bonus action [2.5+ 5(str)+4(rage) +.5 crit = 12*.85

assuming 16 rounds of combat with no rest total damage done = 844.81 or 52.8 per round with maul/sword       828.61 or 51.79 per round with axe

(Barbarian 20)
Attack action: Maul/Sword 20.09 per attack x2 attacks [40.18]
                 : Axe 20.16 per attack x2 attacks [40.32]
Bonus action:13.3
total per round 53.62 with an axe 53.48 per round with a sword or maul


7(maul)+7(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+.7 (crit)= 28.7 *.7 (hit chance)=20.09 x2 attacks = 40.18
6.5(axe)+7(str)+4(rage)+10(gwm)+1.3 (crit) = 28.8 *.7(hit chance)=20.16

bonus action [2.5+ 7(str)+4(rage) +.5 crit = 14*.95

So the break down is that if you have 15+ round of combat between rest a pure barbarian dose more damage. If you do 14 or less rounds of combat then a fighter splash works better. If you do 14 or less rounds of combat then a fighter splash works better. 

For more damage you could add Savage Attacker(better mechanically than lucky) witch would add about 1.625 damage per round to the ax welding full barbarian meaning that you would need to have 13+ rounds of combat between rest for the barbarian to do more damage per round.


----------



## Colder

So with all this talk about multiclassing battle master, has anyone considered champion instead?  I think improved critical, when combined with reckless attack, reckless abandon, and brutal critical, might warrant looking into.  It's less on-demand damage and less utility, but I think a crit-fishing build fits with the Battlerager fluff very well.


----------



## Lejaun

Colder said:


> So with all this talk about multiclassing battle master, has anyone considered champion instead?  I think improved critical, when combined with reckless attack, reckless abandon, and brutal critical, might warrant looking into.  It's less on-demand damage and less utility, but I think a crit-fishing build fits with the Battlerager fluff very well.




Personally, I'd probably choose champion instead of the battle master if I had to, just for the ease and simplicity of it.

There is a beauty to adding a champion to a battlerager, of course.  Changing critical hits from 5% (1 out of 20) to 10% (2 out of 20) is pretty big for any class.  As you mentioned, rolling two dice instead of one for reckless attack and have a 10% chance of any roll being a critical already would make you a crit machine.

Personally, I still prefer the pure barbarian path.  The possibility of 24 CON and STR naturally seems pretty huge.  Of course, at level 20 you probably have had a fair shot at magical STR anyways....so who knows.


----------



## Eric Edge

As you level higher monsters you cross might have non-magical weapon resistance. How would you circumvent this for spiked armor? Have magic armor crafted? Is that allowed in 5e? Also the real interest would be a bonus to attack/damage not necessarily AC.


----------



## Lejaun

Eric Edge said:


> As you level higher monsters you cross might have non-magical weapon resistance. How would you circumvent this for spiked armor? Have magic armor crafted? Is that allowed in 5e? Also the real interest would be a bonus to attack/damage not necessarily AC.




Magic armor can certainly be crafted.  I imagine you would have to find a good dwarven smith to craft you an exception set of armor before having it enchanted.  It may also be possible/cheaper to use high end metals like silver to bypass certain immunities.


----------



## Eric Edge

My level 5 Battlerager  (str 18, con 18, dex 14, AC 16) recently acquired a Cloak of Displacement which gives disadvantage to attacks against me. I am fighting with a Greataxe and planned to go 20th Barb. But now that I have the cloak I am rethinking my build to be more tanky and harder to hit. Yet I hate to give up the damage output of my Greataxe.

A compromise might be to pick up a shield (bumping to 18 AC) then dip into fighter to pick up the Dueling fighting style to give +2 damage to a Battle-axe. If I went this route, I was contemplating progressing Barb 5/Fighter1. Then Barb 8/Fighter 2 to pick up a ASI to bring my strength to 20. Then go four more levels of Barb to 12 to pick up Shield Mastery Feat. Then two levels of fighters to get action surge and a Battlemaster archetype. Then Barb the rest of the way and increasing my con to 20. If I even play this character that far.

I play Adventure League so if I got to rank 3 in my faction I could work toward a +1 shield and +1 spiked armor. That would bump me to AC 20. 

Not going 20 Barbarian means I would lose the 24 possibility to strength and constitution.

Thought? What are the pros and cons? What does the math look like comparing possibility to hit and damage?


----------



## Blue

Eric Edge said:


> My level 5 Battlerager  (str 18, con 18, dex 14, AC 16) recently acquired a Cloak of Displacement which gives disadvantage to attacks against me. I am fighting with a Greataxe and planned to go 20th Barb. But now that I have the cloak I am rethinking my build to be more tanky and harder to hit. Yet I hate to give up the damage output of my Greataxe.
> 
> A compromise might be to pick up a shield (bumping to 18 AC) then dip into fighter to pick up the Dueling fighting style to give +2 damage to a Battle-axe. If I went this route, I was contemplating progressing Barb 5/Fighter1. Then Barb 8/Fighter 2 to pick up a ASI to bring my strength to 20. Then go four more levels of Barb to 12 to pick up Shield Mastery Feat. Then two levels of fighters to get action surge and a Battlemaster archetype. Then Barb the rest of the way and increasing my con to 20. If I even play this character that far.
> 
> I play Adventure League so if I got to rank 3 in my faction I could work toward a +1 shield and +1 spiked armor. That would bump me to AC 20.
> 
> Not going 20 Barbarian means I would lose the 24 possibility to strength and constitution.
> 
> Thought? What are the pros and cons? What does the math look like comparing possibility to hit and damage?




The defining mechanical feature of the battlerager subclass to me is that you get temp  HPs that are refreshed every round.  If you don't get hit, you effectively aren't using that feature that round.  Switching more defensive has not only the opportunity cost of less damage, but also that you might not get to use your ability, especially since you don't grant advantage often.

I wouldn't suggest investing in one-handed damage for a battlerager.  Besdies the above, it also dilutes later features like getting extra weapon dice on crit.

If you want to be a bit more defensive, you can go fighter and pick up the +1 AC while armored fighting style, which is half a shield without having to give up your two handed weapon.  You might also want to carry a battleaxe and shield for fights where endurance is more important than damage but you are out of rages.


----------



## Markh3rd

I think you underestimate the Grappler feat with this class. Advantage on all attacks against a creature you are grappling is huge. It even nets you advantage on a shove since that is a special attack if you want to give your friends advantage.  But if the party is more ranged focused and don't want you to shove the target,  no problem you still get advantage on all attacks and the target isn't going anywhere.


----------



## Yunru

Markh3rd said:


> I think you underestimate the Grappler feat with this class. Advantage on all attacks against a creature you are grappling is huge. It even nets you advantage on a shove since that is a special attack if you want to give your friends advantage.  But if the party is more ranged focused and don't want you to shove the target,  no problem you still get advantage on all attacks and the target isn't going anywhere.




That's not worth a half feat, let alone a full feat.


----------



## Markh3rd

Yunru said:


> That's not worth a half feat, let alone a full feat.




How is advantage on all attacks not worth it, since it's something you're going to be doing anyway with this class?


----------



## RogueJK

Lejaun said:


> *
> Rogue*:  It’s hard to utilize sneak attack in spiked armor and with short dwarven legs.  Rogue fighting styles are the opposite of what you are about.




For a Grapple Barbarian like a Battlerager, I would certainly rate a 1 level Rogue dip as higher than Purple.  

The big thing you gain is *Expertise in Athletics*.  This doubles your proficiency bonus to your Athletics checks, which when combined with Rage's Advantage, makes your grapples/shoves almost certain to succeed, and nigh-impossible to escape from.

Sneak Attack is very useful too.  It's not hard for a Battlerager (or any Grapple Barbarian) to utilize Sneak Attack.  Sneak Attack does require you to use a Finesse-capable weapon, so that limits your melee weapon options to something like a Dagger, Rapier, Scimitar, Short Sword or Whip.  But that's not a problem, since Grappling requires a free hand, and therefore you can only use a 1H weapon to attack someone you've Grappled anyway.  And while the idea of a Battlerager using a dainty Rapier may seem odd, mechanically the 1d8+STR from a Rapier is the same as the 1d8+STR from a Warhammer or Battleaxe or Longsword.  You could always refluff it as something like a Basket-hilted Broadsword, for a Highlander Battlerager.  Or for a Steampunk Battlerager, that Rapier is refluffed as a spring-loaded retractable metal spike that deploys out of the forearm of his spiked gauntlet.  Or with a Scimitar or Short Sword refluffed as a Cutlass, you've got a Pirate Battlerager.

As long as you're using one of those qualifying weapons, Sneak Attack applies when you have Advantage on an attack.  Keep in mind that *Reckless Attack* grants you Advantage.  So therefore, that's extra damage every round that you're Recklessly Attacking.  You also gain Advantage on a Prone enemy, and a Prone Grappled enemy can't stand up.  So if you Grapple an enemy and then Shove them Prone (or vice-versa), that's Advantage on every attack until the Grapple ends, which means Sneak Attack will apply every round you're attacking a Prone Grappled enemy, even without using Reckless Attack.  (There are other sources of Advantage too, from certain spells and other enemy conditions.)  Sneak Attack also applies when you don't have Advantage but another ally is within 5 feet of the same enemy, which means if your party contains at least 1 other melee fighter, or your party has a Summoner caster, you and one ally or summoned creature can both gang up on one enemy to trigger Sneak Attack even without Advantage.  

So the 1d6 extra Sneak Attack damage from 1 level of Rogue could potentially apply to a large number of your attacks as a Battlerager, provided you're using the right weapon.  And it means that Scimitar or Short Sword is now doing the same damage as a Greatsword (2d6+STR).  Or a Rapier is now doing *more* damage than a Greatsword (1d8+1d6+STR).  And unlike a 2H Greatsword, those 1H weapons can be used against an enemy that you're holding in a Grapple.  Even if you don't plan to utilize Grappling very often, and want to play it more defensive, it still allows you to have Greatsword-style damage while wielding a Shield for +2 AC.

1 level of Rogue also gets you a few other skill-related benefits, like an extra skill proficiency, plus Thieves Tools proficiency, plus Expertise in a second skill besides Athletics.  (I'd probably choose Perception.)

All that at the cost of merely delaying your Battlerager progress by 1 level.

Therefore, I'd rate 1 level in Rogue as Turquoise.  Better than a Fighter dip, IMO.  Not quite mandatory Gold, but a seriously good choice that will noticeably increase your grappling capability, add damage to most of your attacks, plus net you some other handy skill benefits to boot, all at a small cost of a slight delay.


Higher levels of Rogue aren't usually worth it, though.  2 levels of Rogue only gets you Cunning Action, which isn't of any use to you.  Bonus Action Dash could be situationally useful, but you get that anyway at Battlerager 10.  As a frontliner you will hardly ever be Disengaging.  And you have Disadvantage on Stealth from your Spiked Armor so you won't be Hiding.  Besides, you have other uses for your Bonus Actions, like making Spiked Armor attacks.

3 levels of Rogue does open up a couple interesting options, though.  First, you get an extra 1d6 to your Sneak Attacks (+2d6 total), so your Scimitar/Short Sword is doing 3d6+STR damage on most attacks, and your Rapier is doing 1d8+2d6+STR on most attacks.  You can also choose a Rogue Archetype.  Mastermind, Inquisitive, Swashbuckler, and Arcane Trickster don't offer much of anything to you.  Assassin could be somewhat useful, if you have a way of reliably generating surprise, allowing you to do a decent amount of extra damage in the first round of combat, provided you have a high Initiative.  I'd recommend the Alert feat paired with a high DEX if you go this route.  Thief could be slightly handy for exploration, with a bit better climbing and jumping ability to complement your high Athletics and STR score, and combined with the Healer feat and a Healer's Kit, you could make a decent backup healer with Bonus Action Use An Object.  

Scout is where it gets really interesting.  It gets you Proficiency and Expertise in a couple nature-related skills, and more importantly adds the interesting feature of Skirmisher.  With this, you can move up to half your speed when an enemy ends their turn within 5 feet of you.  If you have an enemy Grappled, they can't move, so they will have to end their turn within 5 feet of you.  You can also drag a Grappled enemy with you when you move, although it cuts you down to half your speed.  So if your DM is willing to play ball with the concept (which seems to work RAW), you could potentially Grapple an enemy on your turn and drag them half your speed.  Then on their turn, when they end it still Grappled, you could drag them another quarter of your speed. (Half speed for Skirmisher, and half of that for dragging a Grappled enemy.)  This could be really good when combined with a party caster running something like Create Bonfire, Cloud of Daggers, Spike Growth, or a similar spell, with you repeatedly dragging an enemy through a damaging spell area and triggering that damage, on both your turn as well as on the enemy's turn.  This would work especially well with speed-boosting feats like Mobile or Squat Nimbleness.

So if you have the ability scores and feats to take advantage of Assassin or Thief, or you can work up a party strategy like the above for Scout, 3 levels of Rogue for an Archetype and extra Sneak Attack damage could potentially be worth the larger delay in Barbarian levels.  Otherwise, it's not worth going past 1 level in Rogue.


----------



## Blue

Markh3rd said:


> How is advantage on all attacks not worth it, since it's something you're going to be doing anyway with this class?




You can already get advantage on all attacks with Reckless Attack.  Between your resistance to B/P/S and the temp HPs you gain every round, the fact that a few more enemy attacks hit you in a round isn't a big deal.  You need to use Reckless Attack to get those bonus tHPs every round, so you *already* have Advantage doing what you're going to do anyway.

Now, you may want to grapple because it helps your allies, but it doesn't grant you personally anything you shouldn't already have.  And since you need a hand free to do a grapple you are depowering yourself holding a 1H weapon and no shield to do so.  The 3 damage you do when initiating a grapple is lost in the +X rage damage the weapon attack would have brought.


----------



## FrogReaver

I've played barbarians before.  I've played paladins and fighters too.  Compared to fighters and paladins they lack some offensive oomph due to having no burst capabilities.  I highly recommend battlemaster 3-4 on any barbarian build just so you can get some damage burst with action surge.  Likewise, if you use GWM, precision attack significantly helps increase your effective hit chance high enough (about +3ish) so that the accuracy penality of the -5/+10 is mostly mitigated.  You can get those abilities much earlier than level 20.

At level 20 the pure barbarian could even be better.  But even if that's the case, if the barbarian/fighter is better for a decent chunk of levels leading up to level 20 then I'd gladly sacrifice a little effectiveness at level 20 for the earlier effectiveness.


----------



## UngeheuerLich

I don´t like that battlerager armor is actually lowering your AC if your constitution is 20 or even 24...
But on the other hand, you will most probably find a way to have it magical at that time keeping up with it.

You probably start with 15 Con (17 Str, Dex 14) and raise str first to 20. So we are speaking of level 19 and 20 when your con bonus finally supersedes +4. So practically never. If you are going for feats on top, you will probably never see that issue.


----------



## RogueJK

UngeheuerLich said:


> You probably start with 15 Con (17 Str, Dex 14) and raise str first to 20. So we are speaking of level 19 and 20 when your con bonus finally supersedes +4. So practically never.




With a Mountain Dwarf and the Standard Array, going 17 STR, 14 DEX, and 15 CON, you could be at 20 STR and 20 CON by Level 16.  (+1 STR/CON, +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 CON.)

Using Point Buy, a Mountain Dwarf could start with 17 STR, 14 DEX, 17 CON.  That's 20 STR and 20 CON by Level 12. (+1 STR/CON, +2 STR, +2 CON.)

You could be at 20 STR and 20 CON sooner than 12 if you roll for stats, and roll well.


----------



## Markh3rd

Blue said:


> You can already get advantage on all attacks with Reckless Attack.  Between your resistance to B/P/S and the temp HPs you gain every round, the fact that a few more enemy attacks hit you in a round isn't a big deal.  You need to use Reckless Attack to get those bonus tHPs every round, so you *already* have Advantage doing what you're going to do anyway.
> 
> Now, you may want to grapple because it helps your allies, but it doesn't grant you personally anything you shouldn't already have.  And since you need a hand free to do a grapple you are depowering yourself holding a 1H weapon and no shield to do so.  The 3 damage you do when initiating a grapple is lost in the +X rage damage the weapon attack would have brought.




When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).

Since it’s a special melee attack, using strength,the rage bonus damage should apply. Spiked armor is considered a weapon, as well as armor.

While you are wearing spiked armor and are raging, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack with your armor spikes against a target within 5 feet of you.


----------



## RogueJK

Markh3rd said:


> Since it’s a special melee attack, using strength,the rage bonus damage should apply.




Note that per the wording of Rage, the bonus damage applies to a "melee weapon attack using Strength".

A Grapple is a special melee attack.  But it is not a melee *weapon* attack.


----------



## Markh3rd

RogueJK said:


> Note that per the wording of Rage, the bonus damage applies to a "melee weapon attack using Strength".
> 
> A Grapple is a special melee attack.  But it is not a melee *weapon* attack.




Read my post again, I added clarification from the rules.


----------



## RogueJK

When wearing Spiked Armor, the spikes inflict the 3 points of bonus damage as part of your Battlerager class feature upon a successful Grapple.  But the spikes don't make the Grapple attempt a "melee weapon attack".  

Only if you make specifically a melee weapon attack with the spikes as a Bonus Action would the extra Rage damage then apply.


This is like saying that all Grapples are "melee weapon attacks" because they're initiated with a free hand, and all creatures' punches with a free hand count as melee weapon attacks per the Sage Advice Compendium, therefore all Barbarians inflict Rage damage every time they grapple someone with their hand.

But that is not the case.  Just because a hand can be used at times to make a melee weapon attack (with an unarmed strike) doesn't mean all types of melee attacks (including grapples) with that hand are specifically melee weapon attacks.  Same with armor spikes.  


RAW, Grapples are called out as being specifically special melee attacks, but not specifically melee *weapon* attacks.  Apples and oranges.  They're both fruit (melee attacks), but two separate and distinct types.


----------



## UngeheuerLich

RogueJK said:


> With a Mountain Dwarf and the Standard Array, going 17 STR, 14 DEX, and 15 CON, you could be at 20 STR and 20 CON by Level 16.  (+1 STR/CON, +2 STR, +2 CON, +2 CON.)
> 
> Using Point Buy, a Mountain Dwarf could start with 17 STR, 14 DEX, 17 CON.  That's 20 STR and 20 CON by Level 12. (+1 STR/CON, +2 STR, +2 CON.)
> 
> You could be at 20 STR and 20 CON sooner than 12 if you roll for stats, and roll well.




Yes. I somehow miscalculated it... bit 16 or 19... no big difference and you might stiĺ take a feat.


----------



## Markh3rd

Tell this guy his grapple isn't a weapon, lol.


----------



## Blue

Markh3rd said:


> When you want to grab a creature or wrestle with it, you can use the Attack action to make a special melee attack, a grapple. Using at least one free hand, you try to seize the target by making a grapple check instead of an attack roll: a Strength (Athletics) check contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check (the target chooses the ability to use).
> 
> Since it’s a special melee attack, using strength,the rage bonus damage should apply. Spiked armor is considered a weapon, as well as armor.
> 
> While you are wearing spiked armor and are raging, you can use a bonus action to make one melee weapon attack with your armor spikes against a target within 5 feet of you.




Except that the rage damage is not on an attack.  It's on a "melee weapon attack using Strength".  A grapple, while an attack, is not a melee weapon attack.  So you don't add the rage damage to your grapple attack.

And, that really ignores that weapon damage size between a one handed and two handed weapon anyway.

Your comment about being able to make a spiked armor attack as a bonus action is just that, a bonus action attack.  It explicitly, as a bonus action, is not part of "when you yous the Attack action to grapple...", since you can't take an Attack action with a bonus action.


----------



## Markh3rd

I know the letter of the law may say no. But it can be argued that because spiked armor is a weapon, and when battleragers use it to grapple, which does damage as a weapon (3 points), then it could be argued in this one exception when a battlerager dwarf in spiked armor uses a grapple attack, but could be reasonably considered a weapon attack instead. Anyone else in any other armor, including spiked, no. But if it can do 3 points of damage,  it must be a weapon. The 3 points don't come from bad breath (or maybe it does!). 

I would allow it. I mean,  you grapple a target and the damage only happens once. It's not like if you maintain the grapple the target keeps taking damage. I'm not going to worry over 3 more points for example against a 156hp target. But that's me, you do what you want with it.


----------



## Yunru

If the letter of the law says no, then that's where the buck stops. Because that's the only baseline a guide can take.


----------



## FrogReaver

Markh3rd said:


> I know the letter of the law may say no. But it can be argued that because spiked armor is a weapon, and when battleragers use it to grapple, which does damage as a weapon (3 points), then it could be argued in this one exception when a battlerager dwarf in spiked armor uses a grapple attack, but could be reasonably considered a weapon attack instead. Anyone else in any other armor, including spiked, no. But if it can do 3 points of damage,  it must be a weapon. The 3 points don't come from bad breath (or maybe it does!).
> 
> I would allow it. I mean,  you grapple a target and the damage only happens once. It's not like if you maintain the grapple the target keeps taking damage. I'm not going to worry over 3 more points for example against a 156hp target. But that's me, you do what you want with it.




I can make lots of arguments like that:
You shouldn't be able to attack with a bow when an enemy is in melee range.  
You should be able to use a hand crossbow and shield because you could reload with your teeth.
Any character should deal damage when they grapple and are wearing spike armor.
ETC.

For almost anything there's a reason to make a houserule about the interactions if it bothers you that much.  None of those are houserules (including yours above) that I would expect many tables to use.


----------

