# Ogre Mage - CR 8?



## Great Guru (May 11, 2010)

I'm thinking that with a puny BAB of +3 and only 5 hit dice that CR 6 would be more realistic for the ogre mage. He's got some cool powers but not as heavy a punch as a CR 8 should have.

And while we're talking inappropriate CRs - what about the mountain giant from MM II? CR 26! Really? I think a single 26th level character would mop the floor with said giant. CR 15 looks more favorable to me.

What do you think and what other monsters out there in 3.0/3.5 have overrated CRs?


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 11, 2010)

Ogre Mage is definitely overrated, I think parties can mop the floor with them at ECL 5!  Really, regeneration loses a lot of its magic when you realize you can still drown or strangle a creature to death.  Even barring that, IME parties would just take to occasional 5 minute spurts of full on beating the utter crap out of thhe poor thing as it lay there limp, running up its nonlethal damage into the thousands so that they could then continue along travelling until the next regularly scheduled beat down, as they looked for a means to kill the thing or someone who could tell them how.  It actually made them comical to my group, instead of the fearsome/scary horror movie vibe I thought they were supposed to give off, with the whole rising from the "dead" a minute after you thought you had "killed" it to attack once again.

For my submission, i recommend the Remorhaz as a being under-CR.  I didn't fathom it in 3.0, and they didn't really change anything going to 3.5, so apparently WotC REALLY thinks that's a fair challenge for a level 7 party.
Of course, I'm an evil DM, so when i used one against my gestalt party, I felt the need to make my Remorhaz *more* fearsome.  So I looked into the rules applications of Swallow Whole + natural burrow speed.


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## Vigilance (May 11, 2010)

It's the combination of flight at will and invisibility at will, plus spell resistance, along with a 1/day 9d6 cone of cold that bumps up the Ogre Mage imo.

They are terrors outdoors. Very hard to pin down, and usually start off the combat with a 9d6 cone of cold that catches the entire party in its AoE, since, with invisibility at will, and flight, the ogre can set up a perfect shot. 

Plus, the ogre mage can usually retreat whenever it wants at low levels to regenerate, thanks to that invisibility at will plus flight.


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## Jhaelen (May 11, 2010)

Great Guru said:


> I'm thinking that with a puny BAB of +3 and only 5 hit dice that CR 6 would be more realistic for the ogre mage. He's got some cool powers but not as heavy a punch as a CR 8 should have.



Apparently Mike Mearls agrees with you: Ogre Mage Makeover

There are quite a few CRs that aren't very accurate. Most of them are in MM2 and Fiend Folio. If you have a highly optimized group of pcs, pretty much every CR will be inaccurate.

I've found a good way to improve monsters without affecting their CR is to select better feats for them. Apart from that there isn't a lot you can do, except closely examine the monsters to make sure their CR is appropriate for their power.


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## Vigilance (May 11, 2010)

Jhaelen said:


> Apparently Mike Mearls agrees with you: Ogre Mage Makeover
> 
> There are quite a few CRs that aren't very accurate. Most of them are in MM2 and Fiend Folio. If you have a highly optimized group of pcs, pretty much every CR will be inaccurate.
> 
> I've found a good way to improve monsters without affecting their CR is to select better feats for them. Apart from that there isn't a lot you can do, except closely examine the monsters to make sure their CR is appropriate for their power.




I think its important to realize that CRs are a guide not a rule, at least they should be.

The Ogre Mage is a very different beastie outside than it is in the dungeon, where its size and the cramped quarters hinder its mobility, which is in my opinion the key to its CR. 

It deals 9d6 with that cone of cold and at 5th level, that's enough to take out a magic user even if he makes his save (average HP of 12, average cone of cold damage of 32, 16 if he makes his save). 

Also, even if the mage survives the initial assault, the ogre mage's spell resistance are going to make inflicting fire damage at range difficult. 

I dunno- I've seen ogre mages wipe the floor with parties when they got lucky or when the terrain favored their abilities.

And with a 14 Int and 14 Wis, I don't see Ogre Mages sitting around in 40 ft. rooms underground waiting for a party to kick the door in.


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## Runestar (May 11, 2010)

If I wanted to make the ogre mage worth its cr, I would probably give it 3 more HD and replace its SLAs with wizard9 spellcasting or something. 

But then it may lose some of its uniqueness as it then becomes just another spellcaster with more hp. 



> And while we're talking inappropriate CRs - what about the mountain  giant from MM II? CR 26! Really? I think a single 26th level character  would mop the floor with said giant. CR 15 looks more favorable to me.




Worse, it has a will save of only +10, so any wizard can easily dominate it and be on his way. And we all know that huge brutish foes tend to have crap will saves, so I won't really call it meta-gaming. I agree with cr15-16 tops. At any rate, the tarrasque seems more threatening than it. 



> For my submission, i recommend the Remorhaz as a being under-CR.  I  didn't fathom it in 3.0, and they didn't really change anything going to  3.5, so apparently WotC REALLY thinks that's a fair challenge for a  level 7 party.




It is "fair" if you can accept that "expends 25% of the party's resources" means losing 1 PC, since that is typically what will happen (remorhaz springs out of the ice, swallows whole a PC, the rest of the party focus-fires on it while the fighter melts inside). 

On my part, I feel the digestor does not warrant its cr6. It has no real attacks beyond its acid spray which doesn't really deal that much damage either.

I dunno about the tarrasque being cr20 either. I have heard about parties as low as lv14 taking it down. 

Also, while not necessarily under-cr'ed, I do feel that a few spellcasting-type monsters, such as the nymph and ghaele are too fragile to warrant so high crs. Unless they are supported adequately with tanks, they will likely go down too quickly in combat before they can utilize their powers.


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## Dandu (May 11, 2010)

Vigilance said:


> Also, even if the mage survives the initial assault, the ogre mage's spell resistance are going to make inflicting fire damage at range difficult.



Orb of Fire says "Hi!"


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## LockesMonk (May 11, 2010)

Yeah, our party fought an ogre mage, and because our ranger KEPT breaking strings or dropping his arrows (he's an awesome roller), none of us could really get at it when it was up in the air. I think that CR really just depends on the situation, because if it can get around flying or invisible, it can be quiiiite a problem.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 11, 2010)

It sounds to me like Ogre Mage is CR 8 mostly because of a (relative for the levels involved) powerful 1/day spell-like ability.  That's pretty crappy design, IMO.  Especially since he basically has to use it the first round before revealing himself to be sure to get it off before dying.  And I distinctly remember advice in the MM saying that monsters aren't generally supposed to come right out firing off all of their daily resources, or their most powerful ones.  They're supposed to be treated reasonably as creatures in the world.  The Ogre Mage wouldn't want to waste his only nuke for the day on easy pickings and then be screwed later if he needs it, so it makes no sense to me that he'd just go and open a fight with it in most scenarios.  Obviously, if he knows about the party and their threat level, that could be an exception.

I guess that design concept changed as more groups reported their spellcasters starting off fights with their heaviest hitters in the hopes of ending the fight sooner and take less damage.  A rather tragic cycle of logic.  "The faster things die, the safer we'll be," causing the DM to respond in kind with the NPCs.



LockesMonk said:


> Yeah, our party fought an ogre mage, and because our ranger KEPT breaking strings or dropping his arrows (he's an awesome roller), none of us could really get at it when it was up in the air. I think that CR really just depends on the situation, because if it can get around flying or invisible, it can be quiiiite a problem.




Ah, critical fumble rolls.  Inserting "realism" into the game since 2001.  Because everyone knows that in reality, if a line of archers all fires their bows in formation, surely at least one of them will destroy his bow beyond use or comically drop the ammunition.


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## Great Guru (May 11, 2010)

*CR 6 At Best*

If an ogre mage only warrants a CR 8 if he's outside, flying, invisible, and gets off his Cone of Cold against the whole group he's not a CR 8 at all. The creature's ideal attack scenario isn't always going to happen for it.

I'm thinking CR 5 or 6. A 5th or 6th level party has access to Fly, See Invisibility, and Melf's Acid Arrow. If the DM allows it there's the whole line of Orb spells available which pretty much negates the SR advantage (which is why IMC I made them all evocations allowing SR).

Moreover, check out the crappy Will save (they are merely giants after all). Any spellcaster with Spell Penetration is going to have a decent shot at hitting them with mind-affecting effects. Bleah.


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## Great Guru (May 11, 2010)

I read that Mearls article. Good stuff. Followed the linky to the Noonan "Proud Nails" article. The guy can't take halfling and gnome combatants seriously based on observing a 2-year old child? How about a chimpanzee? Those things are literally strong enough to beat you to death and rip off your face.


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## Vigilance (May 11, 2010)

Great Guru said:


> If an ogre mage only warrants a CR 8 if he's outside, flying, invisible, and gets off his Cone of Cold against the whole group he's not a CR 8 at all. The creature's ideal attack scenario isn't always going to happen for it.




Right, which is why CRs are not 100% accurate all the time. Circumstances come into play.

However, you need to keep in mind that against a 5th level party, there is a chance that an Ogre Mage can TPK them with one spell.

In Mearls' CR 5 version of the Ogre, you'll note that he removes the cone of cold and reduces the invisibility to 3/day and removes the regeneration.

That's a fairly significant weakening of the monster imo, which leads me to believe that maybe the CR isn't all that off. 

In fact, I don't actually think Mearls ever says the CR for the Ogre Mage is wrong. When he says its "too high" he means "too high for them to work with ogres", which is something he thinks would make them cooler (I agree btw). 



> I'm thinking CR 5 or 6. A 5th or 6th level party has access to Fly, See Invisibility, and Melf's Acid Arrow. If the DM allows it there's the whole line of Orb spells available which pretty much negates the SR advantage (which is why IMC I made them all evocations allowing SR).




I'd agree with you but for that 1/day 9d6 damage cone of cold with a save DC of 18.

It really skews the whole design and I've never really liked it (that goes all the way back to at least 1st edition btw).


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## Great Guru (May 11, 2010)

The Cone of Cold can be lethal if it catches the whole party and if they all miss their saving throws. After that, assuming at least some of the party makes their saves (the rogue probably making it and not taking damage at all) the party can react and do damage control (i.e. potions or spells of healing).

I've decided on CR 6 for my campaign, given the ogre mage one more Hit Die, and of course they only change shape now instead of polymorph as in pre-errata 3.5.


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## Great Guru (May 11, 2010)

Compare my CR 6 ogre mage with the CR 5 very young red dragon in 3.5 MM. I think that dragon is probably more lethal - again depending on the circumstances of the encounter.

Other CR 6 monsters include the annis hag, babau, lamia, and wyvern. I think this version of the ogre mage compares favorably with those creatures.


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## ValhallaGH (May 11, 2010)

Great Guru said:


> Compare my CR 6 ogre mage with the CR 5 very young red dragon in 3.5 MM. I think that dragon is probably more lethal -




Yeah, but all the dragons are underrated for CR.  That's because they were meant to be the _elites_ or _solos_ or a game that didn't allow for either concept in it's monster design.


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## coyote6 (May 11, 2010)

I think the last time I used an ogre mage, I upgraded it -- added a couple of hit dice, IIRC -- without changing its CR. I agree that its combination of abilities make it hard to lower its CR, without turning it into a TPK Monster. Yet it's HD mean that once the party has the ability to take a shot from the _cone of cold_, and counter the invisibility, it's effectiveness falls way off. So, adding a couple of hit dice seemed to work, at least for me. 

In effect, the ogre mage is one of a number of monsters that seems to have a step CR -- against PCs of a certain range of levels, it functions as CR X -- that is, it is about as dangerous to the PCs as other monsters of CR X. But once the PCs are a higher level, it becomes less of a threat than other CR X monsters, and its CR is then somewhat overblown.

It's kind of an eggshells-with-hammers thing.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2010)

I used one of these guys, and IME Mearls was just way off. These guys are tough. The way it played out with my group, you had an invisible guy with a glaive attacking. When they finally cornered him, he took a step back and blasted them all at the same time with Cone of Cold. While they were healing, he grappled the wizard. It was the second-closest thing to a TPK in my campaign (number one was the premature attack on the ancient blue dragon). ... And that was with the ogre mage being alone and indoors, far from an ideal situation for the monster.

Then you have to consider what happens when you advance him with class levels. Adding two levels of rogue makes him, in theory, CR 9, and now you have an invisible sneak attacking dude with evasion.


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## Dandu (May 12, 2010)

Will save of +3 means that the Orge Mage attacks, gets blinded by Glitterdust, and is swiftly ganked by the fighter.


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## pawsplay (May 12, 2010)

First the party has to figure out where the ogre mage is in order to glitterdust. Then the ogre mage has to fail its save, which depending on the character we can count on being between 15 and 16, not a sure thing at all. Further, even while blinded, the ogre mage is no slouch. He can still fly out of reach. In fact, he can cast darkness, equalizing the situation. 

Now, against a party of well-armed fighter-mages armed to the teeth with glitterdust and magic missiles, the ogre mage is going to be in trouble, but against a more conventional party, he is significantly threatening. Against a high level party, the low Will save is more of an issue.

CR 6 was put forward as a good benchmark. Well, I'm picturing a 6th level party, and I frankly doubt they are going to fully prepared for an invisible, flying foe that can melee and has a very nasty cone attack. At that level, they could literally run out of glitterdusts before they ever found him. If the fighter closes, the ogre mage is not likely to offer a full attack. And with a +12 grapple modifier, what's to stop him from pinning a 6th level fighter, flying straight up in the air, and dropping him? 

An argument could be made for CR 7.


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## Dandu (May 12, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> First the party has to figure out where the ogre mage is in order to glitterdust.



Fortunately, Spot and Listen allow you to notice and pinpoint invisible creatures, respectively.


> Then the ogre mage has to fail its save, which depending on the character we can count on being between 15 and 16, not a sure thing at all.



It's a 70-75% chance of the Orge Mage sucking due to the first spell cast. I call that pretty good. 







> Further, even while blinded, the ogre mage is no slouch. He can still fly out of reach.



And is no threat to anyone if he's retreating.


> In fact, he can cast darkness, equalizing the situation.



I cast Magic Missile at your Darkness.


> Now, against a party of well-armed fighter-mages armed to the teeth with glitterdust and magic missiles, the ogre mage is going to be in trouble, but against a more conventional party, he is significantly threatening. Against a high level party, the low Will save is more of an issue.



Round 1: Rogue notices something and marks the area for the wizard to glitterdust (say, by running up to it, or shooting in the square) Wizard does so. Ogre Mage is revealed and has a 70-75% chance of being blinded.
Round 2: Orge Mage either tries to escape or Cones of Cold the party. In the first case, the Orge's efficacy is diminished. In the second, he's marked and will be subject to attacks. Wizard can cast Glitterdust again for another 70-75% chance to blind it if necessary. (Admittedly, a good Cone of Cold could take out the party wizard because wizards don't have a great deal of HP).
Round 3: ???
Round 4: Profit.

Now, unless parties with Rogues who have invested in Spot and Listen, along with Wizards who use Glitterdust, are now "high powered parties", I think we can consider your point disproven.


> CR 6 was put forward as a good benchmark. Well, I'm picturing a 6th level party, and I frankly doubt they are going to fully prepared for an invisible, flying foe that can melee and has a very nasty cone attack.



Unless they have anyone with a decent listen check (Ranger, Rogue, Barbarian, Druid). 


> At that level, they could literally run out of glitterdusts before they ever found him.



How fortunate it is that we can find out which squares invisible creatures are in without resorting to random blasting.



> If the fighter closes, the ogre mage is not likely to offer a full attack. And with a +12 grapple modifier, what's to stop him from pinning a 6th level fighter, flying straight up in the air, and dropping him?



1. It provokes an Attack of Opportunity from the Fighter because it does not have the feat Improved Grapple.
2. The fighter will have a +10 grapple modifier from strength and BAB, which means the orge mage has a 60% chance of success. This is lower than the 70-75% chance of it resisting Glitterdust.
3. It has to initiate grapple the first round, and then pin in the second. This means it can be sneak attacked in the meantime by the Rogue.
4. Opposed grapple checks to move. Again, 60% chance of success.
5. Wizard casting Grease or Enlarge Person on the Fighter. Grease helps him escape, Enlarge Person gives him a +4 bonus to grapple... which makes his total bonus +14.
6. The cleric can force a will save vs Bestow Curse, Hold Person, etc. This would be bad for the Orge Mage.
7. You move at half your speed when grappling after winning the opposed roll. Ascending also forces you  to move at half speed. This means in one round, the Orge Mage can move  up and drop the fighter... 10 feet. This deals 1d6 damage. Using two rounds to pursue an attack that is unlikely to work, provoking several attacks of opportunities, all in order to deal 1d6 damage does not strike me as impressive.


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## Great Guru (May 12, 2010)

Glitterdust's area is large enough that if we're talking a typical dungeon room or corridor it won't be hard to use it effectively.

My group - in a dungeon setting - would Glitterdust and Web the crap out of it. If your Glitterduster is a sorcerer he's got the slots to spare.

If your party includes a warlock with the right invocations - See the Unseen and Fell Flight - it goes down hill for the ogre mage in a big hurry.


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## coyote6 (May 12, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> I used one of these guys, and IME Mearls was just way off. These guys are tough. The way it played out with my group, you had an invisible guy with a glaive attacking.




As soon as the ogre mage swings that glaive at someone, he's no longer invisible (it's just _invisibility_, not the greater version). The whole party then gets a round of actions to attack him; if _glitterdust_ is available, they can cast it, and the ogre mage never gets to be invisible again; same if the cleric has _invisibility purge_. 

In any case, the ogre mage then has to use his standard action to turn invisible again; most likely, he's threatened by one or two people (assuming a regular dungeon where he can't just hover out of reach), so he has to cast defensively or soak up AoOs (and possibly have the invisibility interrupted). Ogre mage's have a 25% chance of blowing the concentration check, which would mean that round was basically wasted; might want to fly away (provoking AoOs).

Now he's (maybe) invisible; next round he can get a pair of attacks while invisible. Then rinse and repeat.

Note that this ogre mage differs in a key way from the standard MM version: he's got a glaive, giving him a really long reach. Long reach + flight can be brutal. If the ceiling is tall enough, that right there would be vicious -- hover 20 ft off the ground, far out of reach of most everyone (you'd need to be flying, spider climbing, levitating, or enlarged w/a reach weapon), hacking away. Invisibility & cone of cold would just be the cherries on top of that Oh God Oh God He's Killing Us sundae (turn invisible & fly to a distant corner & wait to regenerate, then move in and attack again).


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## Alzrius (May 12, 2010)

According to v.6.1 of Craig Cochrane's Challenging Challenge Ratings system - which deconstructs CR at a truly minute level - the ogre mage is CR 4.


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## jedavis (May 12, 2010)

I distinctly recall a 3.0 Rog3/Wiz 5 and Fighter 6/Ranger 1 once having their asses handed to them by an Ogre Mage indoors without the use of invisibility or cone of cold.  Don't remember the gory details, but I do remember a _lot_ of failed SR penetration rolls and then getting pulped by a huge greatsword (I was playing the Wiz/Rogue).


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 12, 2010)

Alzrius said:


> According to v.6.1 of Craig Cochrane's Challenging Challenge Ratings system - which deconstructs CR at a truly minute level - the ogre mage is CR 4.




I think Craig's ratings system needs a sanity check.  If his system spits out an Ogre Mage as CR 4, something is clearly screwed up in there.  Massively.


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## coyote6 (May 12, 2010)

Yeah, CR 4 seems really low. 4 PCs of 4th level would very likely get wiped out by one _cone of cold_, and are much less likely to be able to deal with flight and invisibility and regeneration.

Never mind 2nd level PCs -- a CR 4 foe should be a tough, but beatable, opponent for four 2nd level PCs. They'd get murdered.

Perhaps this system redefines CR in some way? (E.g., I think some people have used alternate CR values where CR meant "a tough fight for the PCs" rather than the standard "use 25% of their resources [and the PCs are likely to win".)


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## pawsplay (May 13, 2010)

Again, I've actually played this out. With the group I played with, only the last glitterdust even hit the right square. Spot and Listen can be used to pinpoint, but it's not an easy process. Magic missiles cannot be cast on ogre magi who are invisible. By some readings, only a fighter with reach could effectively AoO an ogre mage who tried to grapple, and no one can if the ogre mage is invisible. Glitterdust has a notably short duration--8 rounds at 8th level--and covers a 10 foot radius spread, which, by the way, you hope covers the ogre mage but not your own party. 

A well-coordinated attack by an intelligent and prepared party will destroy him, but that's true of most CR 8 creatures encountered solo. A juvenile green dragon has lots of hit points, but it can't turn invisible or regenerate.


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## Dandu (May 13, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Again, I've actually played this out. With the group I played with, only the last glitterdust even hit the right square. Spot and Listen can be used to pinpoint, but it's not an easy process.



Spot is a flat DC 20 to notice an invisible creature (DC 30 if he's holding very still). You can get a spot modifier of 9 ranks+5 (2,500 gp item) for a +14 spot modifier before anything else comes into play.

Listen vs Move Silently to notice the general direction of the sounds an invisible creature makes. Beat the DC by 20 and you can pinpoint it. 9 ranks gives a +9 modifier vs the Orge Mage's move silently modifier of +0.

Between the two, I think the party is likely to notice something's around.


> Magic missiles cannot be cast on ogre magi who are invisible.



Magic Missile was a response to Darkness.



> By some readings, only a fighter with reach could effectively AoO an ogre mage who tried to grapple



Yes, and fighters with reach weapons are so rare. You still haven't addressed the problem of the fighter having a comperable grapple modifier which makes grappling difficult.



> and no one can if the ogre mage is invisible.



You lose invisiblity when you attack someone. Grappling is an attack. You therefore are not invisible when you're grappling someone.







> Glitterdust has a notably short duration--8 rounds at 8th level



Fortunately most melee fighters don't need that long to kill it.



> --and covers a 10 foot radius spread, which, by the way, you hope covers the ogre mage but not your own party.



Why would the mage ever include party members in the area of Glitterdust in the first place? Surely a man as intelligent as Einstein would know not to do such a thing? When you resort to such petty nit picking to defend your position, could it be a sign that your position is tenuous?


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## Runestar (May 13, 2010)

Unless 2 or more PCs are surrounding the ogre mage, you should never end up in a scenario where you have to risk hitting both the mage and your PC with glitterdust simultaneously. 



> I think Craig's ratings system needs a sanity check.  If his system  spits out an Ogre Mage as CR 4, something is clearly screwed up in  there.  Massively.




I think it highlights just what a 1-trick pony the ogre mage is. After it has used its cone of cold, it is really just an ogre with flight, sr and regeneration. Cr4 is probably too low (an ogre is already cr3), but likely not that far off the mark. Maybe cr5-6 max.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 13, 2010)

I'd say Ogre Mage is about CR 6.  And yes, CR 4 is still way off, even if it's within "just" 2 points.  An Ogre Mage can easily TPK a level 4 party.  They might beat him, sure (I'm placing it as CR 6, afterall, so it's well within the realm of possible), but there's a very high risk of multiple PC deaths.  That is not what I'd call an equivalent level challenge.

I think Ogre Mage should either be stripped of Cone of Cold and made CR 6 or a very strong CR 5.  OR, add in several HD and one or two more at will, passive all-day, or per encounter abilties to make them more robust overall, and actually let them earn their CR 8 ranking.

A while back, I wanted to make an Oni variant Ogre Mage using Tome of Battle maneuvers as a per encounter resource instead of spell-likes.  I might go back to that sometime.


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## Dandu (May 13, 2010)

coyote6 said:


> Note that this ogre mage differs in a key way from the standard MM version: he's got a glaive, giving him a really long reach. Long reach + flight can be brutal. If the ceiling is tall enough, that right there would be vicious -- hover 20 ft off the ground, far out of reach of most everyone (*you'd need to be flying, spider climbing, levitating, or enlarged w/a reach weapon*)



What happened to archery?


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## pawsplay (May 13, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Spot is a flat DC 20 to notice an invisible creature (DC 30 if he's holding very still). You can get a spot modifier of 9 ranks+5 (2,500 gp item) for a +14 spot modifier before anything else comes into play.




While the +5 item and the maxed ranks is reasonable, I would not think it's assumed at 6th level. I'm not even sure what premade items exist grant a Spot bonus.



> Listen vs Move Silently to notice the general direction of the sounds an invisible creature makes. Beat the DC by 20 and you can pinpoint it. 9 ranks gives a +9 modifier vs the Orge Mage's move silently modifier of +0.




But to succeed, you first have to be close enough.




> Yes, and fighters with reach weapons are so rare. You still haven't addressed the problem of the fighter having a comperable grapple modifier which makes grappling difficult.




A four point advantage in the ogre mage's favor is pretty good.



> Why would the mage ever include party members in the area of Glitterdust in the first place? Surely a man as intelligent as Einstein would know not to do such a thing? When you resort to such petty nit picking to defend your position, could it be a sign that your position is tenuous?




Why would an ogre mage who is invisible do anything OTHER than stroll casually right into the middle of the party, not adjacent to the rogue with the maxed out Listen skill, but instead adjacent at an unknown location next to the easily grappled wizard who does not have a maxed out Listen skill?
The mage would not purposefully include party members in the area of glitterdust, which means the ogre mage can purposefully stand near the party when it's safe to do so.

Now imagine the ogre mage readying cone of cold to cast if the mage casts any spell at all. Hilarity ensues. No glitterdust, possibly no mage, no full attack from the fighter. Maybe the rogue can flank him.


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## pawsplay (May 13, 2010)

Dandu said:


> What happened to archery?




Invisible guys sundering bows springs to mind, but archery is definitely an option I would implement, if I could see my foe.


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## Dandu (May 13, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Invisible guys sundering bows springs to mind



Backup bows spring to mind.


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## Dandu (May 13, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> While the +5 item and the maxed ranks is reasonable, I would not think it's assumed at 6th level. I'm not even sure what premade items exist grant a Spot bonus.



Eyes of the Eagle from the PHB
 


> But to succeed, you first have to be close enough.



To be a threat, the Ogre Mage has to be close by.



> A four point advantage in the ogre mage's favor is pretty good.



Last time I checked, 12 - 10 = 2
I have a question. How can you consider the 60% chance of success on a grapple check from the Ogre Mage vs the fighter good, while considering the 70-75% chance of success from the wizard casting Glitterdust bad?



> Why would an ogre mage who is invisible do anything OTHER than stroll casually right into the middle of the party, not adjacent to the rogue with the maxed out Listen skill, but instead adjacent at an unknown location next to the easily grappled wizard who does not have a maxed out Listen skill?



Grappling the wizard means you are denied Dex to AC, lose invisiblity, and can be sneak attacked by the rogue and murdered by the fighter. Cleric will either cast a spell on you or bring out a mace. Furthermore, when the Ogre Mage starts the grapple, he spends his first round establishing a grapple and he can't deal damage until his second round.

Also, there are several familiars with spot, listen, blindsense, and scent which may make sneaking up on the wizard harder than it sounds.


> The mage would not purposefully include party members in the area of glitterdust, which means the ogre mage can purposefully stand near the party when it's safe to do so.



Ogre mage occupies a 10 ft square. Glitterdust affects a 10 ft square. 

If the Ogre Mage simply stood next to someone, the Wizard would just have to keep a 5 ft distance between the edge of the Glitterdust spell and the character.



> Now imagine the ogre mage readying cone of cold to cast if the mage casts any spell at all. Hilarity ensues. No glitterdust, possibly no mage, no full attack from the fighter. Maybe the rogue can flank him.



I'm imagining. Wizards can cast Glitterdust more than once a day. Ogres mages can only cast Cone of Cold once per day. Do you see where I am going with this?

If you kill/knock out the wizard with the Cone of Cold, things get tougher for the party. Unless the Rogue has a sack of flour, Enlarge Person, or Faerie Fire.


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## Runestar (May 13, 2010)

My wizard with scorching burst (the reserve feat from complete mage) says hi.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 13, 2010)

Runestar said:


> My wizard with scorching burst (the reserve feat from complete mage) says hi.




It's Fiery Burst.  And what's that have to do with anything?


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## Runestar (May 13, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> It's Fiery Burst.  And what's that have to do with anything?



Just noting how easily it deals with the ogre mage. You don't need to expend any resources, AoE ignores invisibility, punches through sr being an SU ability, and low damage is offset somewhat by the ogre mage having so little hp to begin with.


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## Dandu (May 13, 2010)

Dealing damage to it really isn't the issue, as much as pawsplay tries to make it one. Finding it is.


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## pawsplay (May 13, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Last time I checked, 12 - 10 = 2
> 
> I have a question. How can you consider the 60% chance of success on a grapple check from the Ogre Mage vs the fighter good, while considering the 70-75% chance of success from the wizard casting Glitterdust bad?




It's not great. However, grappling is an unlimited resource, albeit one with a risk associated with it, whereas glitterdust is finite. Further, the ogre mage is only going to grapple when it's optimal to do so, whereas a 6th-8th level party is going to need to hit the ogre mage with Glitterdust before they can be very effective. And the consequences of being grappled and dropped from a great height are quite dire... if the ogre mage gets you, you can get away with light falling damage if you escape the first round, but but it gets rapidly worse after that. 



> Grappling the wizard means you are denied Dex to AC, lose invisiblity, and can be sneak attacked by the rogue and murdered by the fighter. Cleric will either cast a spell on you or bring out a mace. Furthermore, when the Ogre Mage starts the grapple, he spends his first round establishing a grapple and he can't deal damage until his second round.




Sure... but he's got the wizard.  A CR 8 monster versus a level 8 party is supposed to consume 25% of their resources, so if he simply kills the wizard, he's done his job. The ogre mage doesn't have to _win_ this one to justify his CR, he just has to cause some hurt. 



> Ogre mage occupies a 10 ft square. Glitterdust affects a 10 ft square.
> 
> If the Ogre Mage simply stood next to someone, the Wizard would just have to keep a 5 ft distance between the edge of the Glitterdust spell and the character.




Sure. But it makes for a harder game of battleship.



> I'm imagining. Wizards can cast Glitterdust more than once a day. Ogres mages can only cast Cone of Cold once per day. Do you see where I am going with this?




Wizards would have to specifically prepare an "all Glitterdust all the time" strategy in order to be extremely effective in this scenario, or carry scrolls? Sorry, that's my best guess. Of course, a sorcerer might be really handy in this scenario, but they may versatility problems.



> If you kill/knock out the wizard with the Cone of Cold, things get tougher for the party. Unless the Rogue has a sack of flour, Enlarge Person, or Faerie Fire.




The ogre mage's low hit points are its biggest weakness, but I don't think the rogue is out of the woods just by being able to pinpoint its square.


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## Jeff Wilder (May 13, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Orb of Fire says "Hi!"



To be fair: (1) The _orb_ spells are near the top of the cheese list for official spells, and (2) It's not all that meaningful to point out that an expansion spell makes the ogre mage CR (a core creature) seem even worse.  (Don't get me wrong, the ogre mage is significantly weaker than its CR indicates, IMO.  But the _orb_ spells pretty much screw over _any_ creature with SR.)


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## pawsplay (May 13, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Spot is a flat DC 20 to notice an invisible creature (DC 30 if he's holding very still). You can get a spot modifier of 9 ranks+5 (2,500 gp item) for a +14 spot modifier before anything else comes into play.
> 
> Listen vs Move Silently to notice the general direction of the sounds an invisible creature makes. Beat the DC by 20 and you can pinpoint it. 9 ranks gives a +9 modifier vs the Orge Mage's move silently modifier of +0.
> 
> Between the two, I think the party is likely to notice something's around.




I looked it up, and pintpoint a creature's location is +20 DC. I think I'm starting to remember why my PCs resorted to failed bull rush attempts as a way of locating the ogre mage.


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## pawsplay (May 13, 2010)

Jeff Wilder said:


> To be fair: (1) The _orb_ spells are near the top of the cheese list for official spells, and (2) It's not all that meaningful to point out that an expansion spell makes the ogre mage CR (a core creature) seem even worse.  (Don't get me wrong, the ogre mage is significantly weaker than its CR indicates, IMO.  But the _orb_ spells pretty much screw over _any_ creature with SR.)




It's worth noting that even Glitterdust is a low-level conjuration that directly affects the ogre mage and ignores SR, and buys the price of admission for a lower level party in this scenario.


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## pawsplay (May 13, 2010)

I'm looking at the Pathfinder version, and they basically turned him into a native outsider and have him four extra HD while leaving much the rest exactly the same. In addition to addressing the low hp and saves, that would be in keeping with the Pathfinder approach to more consistent numbers for a given CR and bending monsters and PCs toward the stronger examplars. It uses its extra feats on Combat Reflexes and Iron Will.

If you wanted to take the same approach in d20, you could always advance the ogre mage, by the book, up to 3 HD without necessarily changing the CR. Ogre magi normally advance by character class. I feel that if you advance the ogre mage by class, its CR quickly becomes justified, but it would be reasonable to set the base CR to 7 if you were concerned about being overgenerous.


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## coyote6 (May 13, 2010)

Oh, yeah, you can make advanced ogre magi nasty. I used an ogre mage warlock in my last D&D game, and he made for a nice little fight. 

By that time, though, I had read Mearls' article, redubbed the ogre mage CR 6, and started using Mearls' variant & my own.


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## Dandu (May 14, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> And the consequences of being grappled and dropped from a great height are quite dire... if the ogre mage gets you, you can get away with light falling damage if you escape the first round, but but it gets rapidly worse after that.



Drop a fighter 50 feet and deal him 5d6 damage (average 17.5 damage). Meanwhile, you've done nothing but ascend for 5 rounds and made yourself a target denied dex bonus all the time. Can you see how that would be a bad thing?



> Sure... but he's got the wizard.  A CR 8 monster versus a level 8 party is supposed to consume 25% of their resources, so if he simply kills the wizard, he's done his job.



He's not going to kill the wizard in the first round of grapple because you don't deal damage. He's not going to the second round either, because he won't deal enough damage. It's going to take a while, and he'll be taking fire in the meantime. This does not strike me as the path to victory.


> Sure. But it makes for a harder game of battleship.



Never play battleship with a man whose intelligence is on par with that of Einstein's.

Assuming that Einstein was a human with 18 int, of course.

In an actual game, the player will likely not be as smart as his character. Still, if the rogue/ranger/etc says "I hear something in the spot I'm pointing at with my sword, please Glitterdust it", then it's not really that hard to launch a Glitterdust at said square. And not hit his buddy due to the fact that the player can see the grid and position his spell accordingly.



> Wizards would have to specifically prepare an "all Glitterdust all the time" strategy in order to be extremely effective in this scenario, or carry scrolls? Sorry, that's my best guess.



1. Glitterdust is one of the strongest second level spells in the game, why not prepare it?
2. It's not like wizards don't get Scribe Scroll as a bonus feat.


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## Runestar (May 14, 2010)

Why can't the wizard simply cast detect invis to pinpoint the location of the ogre mage before zapping him with glitterdust?


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## FEADIN (May 14, 2010)

IMC the wizard (Mystic theurge now) took Glitterdust very early and he often uses it, at some point they'll encounter an Ogre mage with 4 fighter levels, by now they are 9th level and this poor CR12 creature seems weak for the group, with 1 or 2 more levels for the group, even with others npc I'm not sure he will see the second round.
The archer alone can destroy him (Arcane archer) in 2 rounds.


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## Starbuck_II (May 14, 2010)

Dandu said:


> He's not going to kill the wizard in the first round of grapple because you don't deal damage. He's not going to the second round either, because he won't deal enough damage. It's going to take a while, and he'll be taking fire in the meantime. This does not strike me as the path to victory.
> Never play battleship with a man whose intelligence is on par with that of Einstein's.



What if the player isn't smart and dumps Con? At 1 HP/lv, it might be possible to be killed by a grapple.

Not that they should dump Con, but not all players are smart.


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## pawsplay (May 14, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Why can't the wizard simply cast detect invis to pinpoint the location of the ogre mage before zapping him with glitterdust?




He can. Provided he has both detect invisibility and glitterdust memorized. Meanwhile, in some other thread he wishes he had enlarge person and resist energy while he's fighting a drow warlock with chilling tentacles.


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## pawsplay (May 14, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Drop a fighter 50 feet and deal him 5d6 damage (average 17.5 damage). Meanwhile, you've done nothing but ascend for 5 rounds and made yourself a target denied dex bonus all the time. Can you see how that would be a bad thing?




Not really. The ogre mage's AC isn't all that great anyway, and you won't be able to sneak attack him from a range while he's holding the fighter. He is a better grappler than the fighter, and if the fighter "wins," he falls and takes damage. Provided the ogre mage uses this tactic at a good opportunity and doesn't use it at a very bad opportunity, I don't see much of a problem.


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## Dandu (May 14, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Why can't the wizard simply cast detect invis to pinpoint the location of the ogre mage before zapping him with glitterdust?



I used Glitterdust because Glitterdust is a spell that is more generally applicable to adventuring situations than See Invisibility, since Glitterdust can be used to just blind things as well.



> What if the player isn't smart and dumps Con? At 1 HP/lv, it might be  possible to be killed by a grapple.



This is quite possible. However, despite my low opinion of my fellow man in general, I try to remind myself that people generally aren't complete and total idiots.



> Not really. The ogre mage's AC isn't all that great anyway, and you  won't be able to sneak attack him from a range while he's holding the  fighter.



I'm not sure what you are talking about, since a rogue can sneak attack at a range of 30 feet.



> He is a better grappler than the fighter, and if the fighter  "wins," he falls and takes damage.



Why do you portray the fighter is an idiot? If he wins the grapple 50 feet above ground, he might choose to continue grappling in order to deal more damage to the ogre mage, while his friends plug the enemy with arrows.



> Provided the ogre mage uses this  tactic at a good opportunity and doesn't use it at a very bad  opportunity, I don't see much of a problem.



Why do you keep assuming that the ogre mage will use the best tactics available while the players will all act like chickens with their heads cut off?


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## pawsplay (May 14, 2010)

Dandu said:


> I'm not sure what you are talking about, since a rogue can sneak attack at a range of 30 feet.




Firing into a grapple gives you a 50% chance of hitting your own ally. Presumably, this makes sneak attack impossible, as such a miss chance implies a lack of precision; if it is not impossible, it makes the shot a dangerous gamble. And your fighter doesn't regenerate...



> Why do you portray the fighter is an idiot? If he wins the grapple 50 feet above ground, he might choose to continue grappling in order to deal more damage to the ogre mage, while his friends plug the enemy with arrows.




Every arrow that hits has a 50% chance of hitting him. He can choose to grapple, but he won't be as effective as the ogre mage. 



> Why do you keep assuming that the ogre mage will use the best tactics available while the players will all act like chickens with their heads cut off?




I'm going from my my experiences running ogre magi in combat, plus some basic extrapolations in response to some of the scenarios you are suggesting. It's certainly possible for a party to be well-prepared for an ogre mage encounter, but it's not possible to be well-prepared for every possible encounter. 

I think it's reasonable to assume that a genius-level monster, fighting solo, in a planned encounter, is going to use nearly the best tactics. As for the players, well, they can make their own beds. In a normal scenario, I think the ogre mage is going to justify his CR; glitterdusts will be expended, hit points lost, and so forth, and against a lower level party, fatalities may occur.


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## Dandu (May 14, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Firing into a grapple gives you a 50% chance of hitting your own ally.



Yes, you're right, that is a problem that I overlooked. Ranged attacks in a grapple are out. (Unless they are spells cast directly on the Ogre Mage, which considering he left the casters alone, will probably start flying.)

It's still quite possible for the fighter to escape grapple, take a small amount of damage (you can negate 1d6 of it with a jump check if you deliberately fall), and have the party pincushion the Ogre Mage after.



> He can choose to grapple, but he won't be as effective as the ogre mage.



Being 2 points behind on his grapple modifier isn't going to kill him.



> I think it's reasonable to assume that a genius-level monster, fighting solo, in a planned encounter, is going to use nearly the best tactics.



Ogre Mage has Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17. It's above average, but not quite a genius. Well, for humans anyways.



> I think the ogre mage is going to justify his CR; glitterdusts will be  expended, hit points lost, and so forth, and against a lower level  party, fatalities may occur.



I think I'd walk over it if I was in an 8th level party that got ambushed by an Ogre Mage and was fulfilling the role of arcane caster, but maybe that's just because I'm good at the game and going by my personal experiences.


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## pawsplay (May 15, 2010)

Sure, and as I said above, the ogre mage is more like a CR 7.5 than a solid 8, and a strange critter, at that.


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## Runestar (May 15, 2010)

> He can. Provided he has both detect invisibility and glitterdust  memorized. Meanwhile, in some other thread he wishes he had enlarge  person and resist energy while he's fighting a drow warlock with  chilling tentacles.




Between spontaneous divination, alacritous cogitation and uncanny forethought, a wizard should rarely be caught with the wrong spell for the job.


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## Dandu (May 15, 2010)

> He can. Provided he has both detect invisibility and glitterdust   memorized.



If you don't have See Invisibility prepared and for some reason your  party spotter is absent, there's always your familiar. Bats have  Blindsense, snakes and rats have Scent, and owls and eagles have great  spot checks. I believe I may be forgetting a few useful familiars.



> Meanwhile, in some other thread he wishes he had enlarge   person and resist energy while he's fighting a drow warlock with   chilling tentacles.



When fighting a Drow Warlock, Glitterdust is a viable course of action.


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## Great Guru (May 15, 2010)

I think Glitterdust is a viable option in just about any encounter with creatures that rely on sight. Odds are that somebody will get blinded.


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## Great Guru (May 15, 2010)

*Moving on...*

How about gricks. CR 3? Sure they've got DR 10/magic and a good number of attacks...but they've only got 9 hp and their attacks are fairly low damage.

DR x/magic might not even be a roadblock if the party cleric has the War domain and casts Magic Weapon on the weapon of the party bruiser.

Would CR 2 be more realistic?


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## Runestar (May 15, 2010)

Great Guru said:


> How about gricks. CR 3? Sure they've got DR 10/magic and a good number of attacks...but they've only got 9 hp and their attacks are fairly low damage.
> 
> DR x/magic might not even be a roadblock if the party cleric has the War domain and casts Magic Weapon on the weapon of the party bruiser.
> 
> Would CR 2 be more realistic?




Possibly. Though even cr2 seems a tad too high, but it is definitely too tough for a cr1. 

I think that in extreme cases like this, you may want to redesign the grick rather than try to find a compromise for it. As mentioned, it has low hp which is supposedly compensated by decent dr (except that scorching ray does it in, a raging barb could plausibly deal that much damage on a hit), crap damage but a lot of attacks (4 tentacles can really add up). 

For me, I would advance it all the way to 6HD (improving its cr to 4), then slap on the dungeonbred template to reduce its size back to medium. This improves its hp to 45 (I place the extra stat point for its 4th HD in con), attack to +8 (4 tentacles at 1d6+4 each), fort/reflex/will weigh in at +5/+4/+7. 

Featwise, dungeonbred grants the endurance feat for free, which paves the way for diehard (giving that little bit of extra hp). Other possible feats include travel devotion (if you want to give it a version of pounce so it can attack with all its tentacles more consistently) or perhaps simply weapon focus. 

I know that being large should technically add +1cr, but since it is arguably too weak for a cr3 to begin with, plus staying medium robs it of reach, I decided to assume it has already been factored in. Seems fair for a cr4?


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## pawsplay (May 15, 2010)

Dandu said:


> If you don't have See Invisibility prepared and for some reason your  party spotter is absent, there's always your familiar. Bats have  Blindsense, snakes and rats have Scent, and owls and eagles have great  spot checks. I believe I may be forgetting a few useful familiars.




Handy. Potentially risky, but handy.



> When fighting a Drow Warlock, Glitterdust is a viable course of action.




Sure. Still, the duration on Glitterdust is very short. And at higher levels, the warlock is going to dispel glitterdust to get free hit points.


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## Dandu (May 15, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Handy. Potentially risky, but handy.



Blindsense and Scent are effective if the Ogre is "standing right next to you".




> Sure. Still, the duration on Glitterdust is very short.



It's called Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Lesser.



> And at higher levels, the warlock is going to dispel glitterdust to get free hit points.



At those levels, warlocks have long since ceased to be an actual threat.


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## Runestar (May 16, 2010)

> Sure. Still, the duration on Glitterdust is very short. And at higher  levels, the warlock is going to dispel glitterdust to get free hit  points.




Glitterdust will last for at least 3 rounds. How long do you need to take down the warlock? Combat generally won't last for more than 4-5 rounds at any rate.


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## pawsplay (May 16, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Blindsense and Scent are effective if the Ogre is "standing right next to you".




Right, I was just thinking about a relatively weak familiar being under enemy fire.


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## Great Guru (May 16, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Possibly. Though even cr2 seems a tad too high, but it is definitely too tough for a cr1.
> 
> I think that in extreme cases like this, you may want to redesign the grick rather than try to find a compromise for it. As mentioned, it has low hp which is supposedly compensated by decent dr (except that scorching ray does it in, a raging barb could plausibly deal that much damage on a hit), crap damage but a lot of attacks (4 tentacles can really add up).
> 
> ...




All very reasonable. However, I'm sort of looking at CRs for the "base value" monster - the monster as is from the MM.

I'm not familiar with the dungeonbred template. What's its source?


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## Uder (May 16, 2010)

Holy moving goalposts Batman.

I think the ogre mage is too weak for CR8 against a standard party, but if there's a Theoretical Internet Wizard in the party? The kind with every spell, metamagic rod, and familiar required to shoot down a rhetorical point? CR 1/2 at best.


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## Dandu (May 17, 2010)

Uder said:


> Holy moving goalposts Batman.
> 
> I think the ogre mage is too weak for CR8 against a standard party, but if there's a Theoretical Internet Wizard in the party? The kind with every spell, metamagic rod, and familiar required to shoot down a rhetorical point? CR 1/2 at best.



I wasn't aware that a wizard who prepared glitterdust more than once/had a spare scroll or two of it on hand was a Theoretical Internet Wizard.


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## Runestar (May 17, 2010)

Well, I guess there still are wizards out there who prep bull's strength and knock in their slots instead of glitterdust and web. 



> Holy moving goalposts Batman.
> 
> I think the ogre mage is too weak for CR8 against a standard party, but  if there's a Theoretical Internet Wizard in the party? The kind with  every spell, metamagic rod, and familiar required to shoot down a  rhetorical point? CR 1/2 at best.



To be fair, my wizard would be expected to at least have a rod of lesser extend by 5th lv. And glitterdust is simply too good to not prepare. But even without extending it, it lasts for 4-5 rounds minimum, enough time to plan and execute a counter-attack against the ogre mage. 



> I wasn't aware that a wizard who prepared glitterdust more than once/had  a spare scroll or two of it on hand was a Theoretical Internet Wizard.



Seems the standards for qualifying as a Theoretical Internet Wizard get lower every year. 

Though I wouldn't cast it from a scroll, seeing how the DC caps at a crummy 13.



> All very reasonable. However, I'm sort of looking at CRs for the "base  value" monster - the monster as is from the MM.
> 
> I'm not familiar with the dungeonbred template. What's its source?




Dungeonbred is from dungeonscape, basically "de-advances" a monster by 1 size category, while making it more suited to an enclosed dungeon environment. Been using it for quite a while, especially since I don't quite like too big monsters cluttering up the battlefield. 

As for why I didn't give a straight cr, I felt that some monsters are just too fragile to merit a single cr value. Their effectiveness would depend on a variety of factors, such as whether they manage to pull an ambush off. It has the hp of a cr1 foe, but a damage output that puts a cr4 monster to shame (actually comparable to a very young white dragon!), offset only by its crummy attack bonus. 

So I thought what I could do was to try and patch some of its more glaring weaknesses, making it more well-rounded so it has no one clear weakness the PCs can exploit. Though I admit that even the cr4 version seems to pale in comparison to the very young white dragon...(but then again, everything sucks compared to a dragon of the same cr...)


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## Vigilance (May 17, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> I used one of these guys, and IME Mearls was just way off. These guys are tough.




I don't think Mearls ever said they weren't tough. He just said they didn't really have a good schtick, and were too tough to use _with ogres_, which was something he felt was natural. 

But I don't think he was actually saying their CR was wrong.


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## pawsplay (May 17, 2010)

Well, he wanted to take away _cone of cold_, and they've been blasting cold "as a wand of cold" since AD&D, so I shall pout.  It's not that I'm religious about old monsters or anything, but as with any cultural transformation, rapid change can lead to the loss of language and shared experiences.


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## Dandu (May 17, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Seems the standards for qualifying as a Theoretical Internet Wizard get lower every year.



Standard's the same as it always has been. If it makes the other person's argument look bad, you play the card.


> Though I wouldn't cast it from a scroll, seeing how the DC caps at a crummy 13.



Wizards. They can craft their own scrolls.


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## Runestar (May 17, 2010)

> Standard's the same as it always has been. If it makes the other  person's argument look bad, you play the card.




I meant as in the wizard in question being played. I thought it was reserved solely for wizards who somehow always had the perfect spell in reserve, however esoteric or scenario-specific. Now, it is applicable even to wizards who prep glitterdust and are able to access see invis somehow (2 very common spells no wizard in my games are ever without). Next thing you know, the wizard simply needs to prep magic missiles and fireballs to qualify as an internet wizard. 



> Wizards. They can craft their own scrolls.




Even then, I would usually reserve this for spells which do not rely on DCs and/or have a fairly duration at minimum caster lv, so as to drive the price down. So yes to buffs such as mage armour, scorching ray or haste. No to debuffs like sleep (DC11?!?) or ray of enfeeblement (which needs a fairly high caster lv to be effective).


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## Dandu (May 17, 2010)

Even if the DC for Glitterdust was lower for a scroll the mage crafted himself, it would still have the revealing effect.


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## Uder (May 17, 2010)

The ogre mage should be CR7 as-is, and many of the suggestions for changes here and in Mearl's article have merit.



Dandu said:


> Standard's the same as it always has been. If it makes the other person's argument look bad, you play the card.




It bugs me that somebody brings up a fair point (they are tough in situation X) only to get shouted down with "It's called situation Y, BZZAAP!" It's the opposite of conversation.

I guess a better term would be "drive-by optimizer,"... someone who assumes the best possible counter to any given situation will always be available.

Yes, if your party has access to see invis, fiery burst, glitterdust, orb of fire, eyes of the eagle, and a metamagic rod, then an ogre mage is even less of a challenge than its normally too-high CR would suggest.

Not all players that play wizards memorize what you think are automatic choices. Not even all player that optimize builds do this. At 8th level, the spells given above are a fair bit of a wizard's firepower, just for what amounts to an EL6 or EL7 encounter. For 4th-5th level characters, where the ogre mage and a single low-CR lackey make a good miniboss encounter, it's wishful thinking.


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## Dandu (May 18, 2010)

Uder said:


> The ogre mage should be CR7 as-is



Isn't the Ogre Mage a CR 8?



> It bugs me that somebody brings up a fair point (they are tough in situation X) only to get shouted down with "It's called situation Y, BZZAAP!" It's the opposite of conversation.



I'll be sure to lose some sleep over it.


> I guess a better term would be "drive-by optimizer,"... someone who assumes the best possible counter to any given situation will always be available.



Glitterdust isn't the best possible counter to the given situation. It is, however, a counter to the situation that I often see wizards prepare.

Best possible counter is to cast "Summon Mirror Mephit", use its SLA of Simalicrum to create a Solar, and have the Solar beat up the Ogre Mage.

Well, no, that's still not quite as much overkill as possible...



> Yes, if your party has access to see invis, fiery burst, glitterdust,  orb of fire, eyes of the eagle, and a metamagic rod, then an ogre mage  is even less of a challenge than its normally too-high CR would suggest.



Are you confusing me with someone else? I never suggested that the party would have access to reserve feats such as Fiery Burst, and I don't believe I said the wizard would have See Invisibility either. I stuck with Glitterdust and Eyes of the Eagle. A cheap metamagic rod was mentioned as a way to make Glitterdust last longer, but it wasn't critical. I don't believe Orb of Fire was mentioned more than once by myself in a side discussion of how to deal with the Ogre Mage's SR.


> Not all players that play wizards memorize what you think are automatic choices. Not even all player that optimize builds do this.



Some people play wizards with an Int score below 10. Some people spend their time learning useless spells like Tenser's Transformation. I choose to assume that the average player is not an idiot and will make reasonable choices.



> At 8th level, the spells given above are a fair bit of a wizard's firepower, just for what amounts to an EL6 or EL7 encounter.



 Two Glitterdust spells is not a "fair bit" of a wizard's firepower.

Also, Fiery Burst is an at-will reserve feat, Eyes of the Eagle is an wondrous item, and a metamagic rod is a rod, not a spell.



> For 4th-5th level characters, where the ogre mage and a single low-CR  lackey make a good miniboss encounter, it's wishful thinking.



I do not believe anyone has been talking about 4-5th level characters, at least not recently.


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## Runestar (May 18, 2010)

> Not all players that play wizards memorize what you think are automatic  choices. Not even all player that optimize builds do this. At 8th level,  the spells given above are a fair bit of a wizard's firepower, just for  what amounts to an EL6 or EL7 encounter. For 4th-5th level characters,  where the ogre mage and a single low-CR lackey make a good miniboss  encounter, it's wishful thinking.




On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all. 

Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?


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## Dandu (May 18, 2010)

Runestar said:


> On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all.
> 
> Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?



Naught but Tenser's Floating Disk and True Strike. And Extended Tenser's Floating Disk. And _Empowered _Floating Disk.


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## pawsplay (May 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> I do not believe anyone has been talking aobut 4-5th level characters,a t least not recently.




I'm pretty sure all examples so far have been a four person party of 6th or 8th level, depending on whether the ogre mage was being a "challenging" or "standard" encounter in that particular example.


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## pawsplay (May 18, 2010)

Runestar said:


> On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all.
> 
> Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?




Well, they'd be pretty sorry if they were heavy on summon monsters, haste, and ground-based area spells.


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## Dandu (May 18, 2010)

Actually, a summoning focused wizard would be able to cast Summon Monster III and get a Fiendish Dire Bat with DR5/magic, Resist Cold and Fire 5, Flying, Blindsense 40 ft, and a +10 to grapple.

Or a Celestial Hippogriff with Resist Cold 5, Scent, Flying, and +11 to grapple.


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## Uder (May 18, 2010)

Runestar said:


> On the flip side, I would think it rare that a wizard somehow ends up preparing spells which are wholly unsuited to fighting an ogre mage at all.
> 
> Perhaps you can provide an example of what an "unlucky" wizard might have prepared?




I'm not going to stat out a full 4/4+1/3+1/3+1/2+1 progression for an 8th level wizard. Here's four of 1st-4th that are not bad choices or underpowered for your average party: Lightning Bolt. Charm Person. Minor Image. Mass Enlarge Person. I'm sure we can all imagine the rest of the spell list. They're not foolish choices, depending on the group build, but they're not specifically useful against an ogre mage - at least not in such a way that the encounter turns into a rock-paper-scissors match.

I think assuming a party is going to have a specific loadout of magic items and spells - and then debating the CR of a monster from that perspective - isn't very useful.


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## Uder (May 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Isn't the Ogre Mage a CR 8?




I meant to say "An ogre mage as-is should be CR7." Forgive me, message board text isn't my main social outlet.


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## Dandu (May 18, 2010)

Uder said:


> I'm not going to stat out a full 4/4+1/3+1/3+1/2+1 progression for an 8th level wizard. Here's four of 1st-4th that are not bad choices or underpowered for your average party: Lightning Bolt. Charm Person. Minor Image. Mass Enlarge Person. I'm sure we can all imagine the rest of the spell list. They're not foolish choices, depending on the group build, but they're not specifically useful against an ogre mage - at least not in such a way that the encounter turns into a rock-paper-scissors match.



Actually, Mass Enlarge Person means the Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue now have the same reach as the Ogre Mage, and Charm Person might be used neutralize the threat after he reveals himself and before your party starts attacking. The horrible reflex save means that Lightening Bolt will have a significant impact.


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## Uder (May 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Actually, Mass Enlarge Person means the Fighter, Cleric, and Rogue now have the same reach as the Ogre Mage, and Charm Person might be used neutralize the threat after he reveals himself and before your party starts attacking. The horrible reflex save means that Lightening Bolt will have a significant impact.




Perhaps that's why I picked them as examples of good but not too-tailored-to-be-true?

BTW, Charm Person on an ogre mage? Are we talking Pathfinder?

The _Lightning_ Bolt from an 8th level caster has only a 50/50 chance of getting through the spell resistance ("It's called Spell Penetration, BZZZAM!" I get it). It's a good all-around spell but not a rock to the ogre mage's scissors. My point was that there are plenty of spells in the book, and many of them aren't tailored to one threat or another. I'd even broaden it - with any given untailored party, the ogre mage will be a fair CR7. If you tailor party items and spells to the fight, it shouldn't have a CR. Give an ad hoc xp award and move on.


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## Dandu (May 18, 2010)

Uder said:


> BTW, Charm Person on an ogre mage? Are we talking Pathfinder?



No, my mistake.


> The _Lightning_ Bolt from an 8th level caster has only a 50/50  chance of getting through the spell resistance



Not to nitpick, but it's a 55/45 chance favoring the Ogre. 



> ("It's called Spell  Penetration, BZZZAM!" I get it).



Let's take a moment away from putting words in my mouth to consider that its is a poor substitute for a valid argument.

But that being said, if you're going to continue to do it, Spell Penetration is a horrible phrase to put in my mouth, as I would use either True Casting or Assay Spell Resistance.



> My point was that there are plenty of spells in the book, and many of them aren't tailored to one threat or another.



 Hold on. What do you mean by "tailored"?

Mass Enlarge Person is tailored to threats involving warriors, Charm Person is tailored to humanoids, and Lightening Bolt is tailored to people with low reflex saves and the tendency to stand in a line. These spells are all tailored to one threat or another. Most spells that you'd cast in combat are.



> I'd even broaden it - with any given untailored party, the ogre mage will be a fair CR7.



You do realize that this is about what I and the others have been saying, right? That the Ogre Mage is over CR'd and should be taken down a notch or two.


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## Uder (May 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Mass Enlarge Person is tailored to threats involving warriors, Charm Person is tailored to humanoids, and Lightening Bolt is tailored to people with low reflex saves and the tendency to stand in a line. These spells are all tailored to one threat or another. Most spells that you'd cast in combat are.




No, they're not tailored. Something can't be tailored until you have a threat in mind. They're four spells specifically chosen because they represent a broad range of situations. Spells specifically dumped on a message board in response to why one or two people think something is worth its CR are tailored. It's a habit as old (older?) as usenet, and it bugs me. Sorry.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 18, 2010)

Dandu said:


> But that being said, if you're going to continue to do it, Spell Penetration is a horrible phrase to put in my mouth, as I would use either True Casting or Assay Spell Resistance.




To be fair, Ogre Mage is a core monster, so some parties may not have access to those spells.  And if non-core is allowed, the Ogre Mage himself is fair game to get tricked out with new options (probably with class level advancement, but as long as you adjust CR accordingly, that shouldn't affect the base argument of whether or not a non-classed Ogre Mage is at the right CR).

Nitpick aside, mostly agree with you.  I'm feeling pretty comfortable labelling Ogre Mage as a very unbalanced CR 6.  Depending on party setup, he's either a pushover CR 6, or a possible TPK CR 6.  Which could be fixed by giving him more HD and robustness to go with a higher CR, or by removing the cone of cold and maybe some other features that can be rough for a low level party to handle and lowering his CR further.


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## Dandu (May 19, 2010)

Uder said:


> No, they're not tailored. Something can't be tailored until you have a threat in mind.



Lightening Bolt is an Area of Effect blasting spell that one would assume, was designed to deal with threats that had a tendency to congregate.


> They're four spells specifically chosen because they represent a broad range of situations.



A broad range of situations... most of which have to do with combat.



> Spells specifically dumped on a message board in response to why one or two people think something is worth its CR are tailored.



You've lost me. The spell was created before this discussion sprang into existence, so it can't have been tailored for the message board.


> It's a habit as old (older?) as usenet, and it bugs me. Sorry.



Shall I get off your lawn?


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## Uder (May 19, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Shall I get off your lawn?




Yah, that'll work.


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## Dandu (May 19, 2010)

Let us return to considering the Ogre Mage's abilities.

1. Cone of Cold. The Ogre Mage will likely get one off and damage the party.
2. Darkness. Hinders the party, but also the Ogre Mage as well.
3. Charm Person. Somewhat useless in combat, as it grants a bonus to resist it.
4. Invisibility. Good for sneaking up and in position, but it disappears the moment he attacks and has to be cast again.
5. Gaseous Form. For escaping.
6. Flight. Useful.
7. Sleep. Useless. Unless you have a sadistic DM, you will be above level 4 when fighting this.

Tactics: Ogre Mages are noted as favoring magic over melee. Its most potent magical attack is the Cone of Cold.

I see it starting combat by spraying the party from a distance (since sneaking up won't go well due to its lack of move silently and the flat DC 20 spot check to notice invisible creatures) for 9d6 (31.5 average) damage. It is then revealed and can be attacked. How it is attacked will determine if it survives the encounter or not, but since assuming a party has specific things (Glitterdust, weapons, competence, etc) is not the way to judge CR, I'm not entirely sure how to proceed. 

Thoughts on how to continue? Perhaps we could drag out a few other CR 6-8 monsters and see how they compare?


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## Runestar (May 19, 2010)

In a thread over at giantip, one poster described his battle with an ogre mage as the party winning initiative, taking it down in the 1st round before it had a chance to act, then spending about 10 minutes trying all kinds of stuff to overcome its regeneration.


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## pawsplay (May 20, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Actually, a summoning focused wizard would be able to cast Summon Monster III and get a Fiendish Dire Bat with DR5/magic, Resist Cold and Fire 5, Flying, Blindsense 40 ft, and a +10 to grapple.
> 
> Or a Celestial Hippogriff with Resist Cold 5, Scent, Flying, and +11 to grapple.




Those are pretty good options, but mainly for distracting the ogre mage while you try to escape. A 50% miss chance just isn't a winning strategy, and either one dies if it fails its save against Cone of Cold. In a protracted battle, the ogre mage would try to get far away and stall the summoned monsters until the duration ran out, regenerate its wounds, and return.


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## pawsplay (May 20, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Thoughts on how to continue? Perhaps we could drag out a few other CR 6-8 monsters and see how they compare?




We know the young blue is probably lowballed at CR 7, but that's probably an important comparison. Then we'd probably want to look at a level 8 human sorcerer who can cast cone of cold, invisibility, flight, and darkness. 

Then, for something completely different, how about an Evolved Wraith (CR 6), a succubus (CR 7), and a Hill Giant (CR 7).


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## Dandu (May 21, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Those are pretty good options, but mainly for distracting the ogre mage while you try to escape. A 50% miss chance just isn't a winning strategy



No, but it lets you know where the thing is for AoE spells and attacks.



> either one dies if it fails its save against Cone of Cold.



Which means the Ogre Mage has used up his most potent attack against a summon. 



> In a protracted battle, the ogre mage would try to get far away and stall the summoned monsters until the duration ran out, regenerate its wounds, and return.



In which case, he'd return without a Cone of Cold and be easy pickings.


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## LuckyBoneDice (May 21, 2010)

Ogre Mage is always my #1 pick for monster campaigns.

as for its CR, I say its definately overpowered. My 2nd level PCs beat an Ogre Mage and his Kobold Minions in 4 rounds.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 21, 2010)

LuckyBoneDice said:


> as for its CR, I say its definately overpowered. My 2nd level PCs beat an Ogre Mage and his Kobold Minions in 4 rounds.




Your entire party consisted of monks and rogues that rolled really well on their reflex saves, then?


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## LuckyBoneDice (May 21, 2010)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Your entire party consisted of monks and rogues that rolled really well on their reflex saves, then?



 nope. the Wizard knew was an Uldra Abjurer, who took advantage of his size and happened to not be in the range of the Cone, and cast every abjuration he could. It was the Ninja, who was a fricken Whisper Gnome, who dropped the final bomb on the OM (his Silence made the CoC useless)


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## pawsplay (May 21, 2010)

Dandu said:


> Which means the Ogre Mage has used up his most potent attack against a summon.
> 
> In which case, he'd return without a Cone of Cold and be easy pickings.




Uh, no. The evading the summoned creatures for several rounds before coming back to finish the job is a different resolution than the situation where the summoned creatures simply die incidentally, without any extra effort, while the ogre mage is severely damaging the rest of the party. No cone of cold is required to simply survive eight rounds of being charged by a dire bat, particularly with a 50% miss chance should the ogre mage happen to continue to be invisible.


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## Great Guru (May 21, 2010)

Some other CR 8 creatures - athach, behir, efreeti, erinyes, stone giant, mind flayer, tyrannosaurus rex.  I think in terms of badassery they outclass the ogre mage on many levels. Cone of cold is great but he's not swallowing anyone whole or stunning you and ripping out your brains.

Some CR 6 beasties - annis hag, chain devil, babau demon, ettin, gauth beholder, will -o'-wisp. These seem more on par with the ogre mage. I'm comfortable with the ogre mage in this kind of company.

CR 7 - aboleth (the ogre mage is more powerful than an aboleth? really?), bulette, chaos beast, chimera, chuul, drider, hill giant, flesh golem, succubus. These all seem to be tougher than the ogre mage.

As always, circumstances of environment may add to or detract from overall badassery.


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## Runestar (May 21, 2010)

> It was the Ninja, who was a fricken Whisper Gnome, who dropped the final  bomb on the OM (his Silence made the CoC useless)




How would silence render CoC useless? Being a SLA, it does not require verbal or somatic components, so an ogre mage can use it in an area of silence just fine.


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## Dandu (May 21, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Uh, no. The evading the summoned creatures for several rounds before coming back to finish the job is a different resolution than the situation where the summoned creatures simply die incidentally, without any extra effort, while the ogre mage is severely damaging the rest of the party. No cone of cold is required to simply survive eight rounds of being charged by a dire bat, particularly with a 50% miss chance should the ogre mage happen to continue to be invisible.



You do realize that while the bat is pointing out which square the Ogre Mage is in, the party is unlikely to be standing around ineffectively, right?

Chances are, once they've been attacked by/notice the presence of the Ogre Mage and have summoned a monster, they are likely to be doing something other than munching on popcorn and watching the bat go at it.


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## pawsplay (May 21, 2010)

Dandu said:


> You do realize that while the bat is pointing out which square the Ogre Mage is in, the party is unlikely to be standing around ineffectively, right?
> 
> Chances are, once they've been attacked by/notice the presence of the Ogre Mage and have summoned a monster, they are likely to be doing something other than munching on popcorn and watching the bat go at it.




Gosh, Dandu, I never thought of that. But now that you have helpfully brough this to my attention, I have to ask, what is your point?

*See below, please. ~ PCat*


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## Dandu (May 21, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Gosh, Dandu, I never thought of that.



Well you sure showed me with that incisive display of wit. I am humbled.



> But now that you have helpfully brough this to my attention, I have to ask, what is your point?



That you mention that one spell can't solve once and for all the problem... without taking into account how it helps the situation?

You're doing something very useful when you summon the dire bat; you are showing everyone where the Ogre Mage is. This is a good thing.


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## Uder (May 21, 2010)

Great Guru said:


> Some other CR 8 creatures - athach, behir, efreeti, erinyes, stone giant, mind flayer, tyrannosaurus rex.  I think in terms of badassery they outclass the ogre mage on many levels. Cone of cold is great but he's not swallowing anyone whole or stunning you and ripping out your brains.
> 
> Some CR 6 beasties - annis hag, chain devil, babau demon, ettin, gauth beholder, will -o'-wisp. These seem more on par with the ogre mage. I'm comfortable with the ogre mage in this kind of company.
> 
> ...




All of that makes sense. The Ogre Mage needs a couple more hit dice and another damage-dealing ranged power or two (or another use of Cone of Cold) to hang with the CR8 critters - and even some of the CR7 ones. Once you buff him up though, he becomes more isolated from the niche that Mearls mentions - as a boss or ally of standard ogres. He also becomes a bit too hard for 4th-5th level groups to deal with as a boss monster.

I'm not comfortable with it at CR6 without implementing some of the changes Mearls mentions, just because that's boss monster territory for 2-4th level characters, and the ogre mage is way too tough for parties of that level. Likewise, I'm not comfortable with dropping all of its abilities and using the CR5 version because I don't subscribe to the 5-round-lifespan vanilla flavoring groupthink that D&D R&D fell into while they were simultaneously designing 4th edition and still flogging 3rd.

I've never felt Mind Flayers were quite right for CR8 either - but a lot of monsters that used to require fodder to do well in previous editions feel that way in 3e regardless of CR anyway.


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## Runestar (May 22, 2010)

> I've never felt Mind Flayers were quite right for CR8 either - but a lot  of monsters that used to require fodder to do well in previous editions  feel that way in 3e regardless of CR anyway.




They are fairly swingy - combat can go either direction depending on how its mindblast goes (and it can spam to its heart's content), and there are few counters to it at this lv. Cr8 seems about right. 

MM5 has the mindflayer cleric4, which for +2cr, gives it a massive boost in AC and hp, as well as some actual melee capability. 

As for the ogre mage, what do you think of replacing its SLAs with warlock invocations? There are invocations for at-will invis and darkness, and it gets a 4d6 eldritch blast instead of having to swing with a crummy greatsword.


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## Piratecat (May 22, 2010)

*Gentlemen. Please read over your last few posts and imagine how you'd react if you saw someone else typing that snippily. It's fine to disagree with someone; just don't make it personal, and don't be a jerk about it.

PM me if this is in any way unclear.*


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## Uder (May 23, 2010)

Runestar said:


> As for the ogre mage, what do you think of replacing its SLAs with warlock invocations? There are invocations for at-will invis and darkness, and it gets a 4d6 eldritch blast instead of having to swing with a crummy greatsword.




I don't see any reason to switch invis/darkness, since the evocations work the same as the spells, but adding an eldritch blast (maybe with Hideous Blow?) would make for an interesting encounter.

Edit: Devil's Sight would be fun too.


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## Runestar (May 23, 2010)

Hideous blow is a nice idea. That would soup up its melee attack, and give it a viable ranged attack (touch compensates for its crummy bab).


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## pawsplay (May 24, 2010)

Hideous blow is never the answer.


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## Runestar (May 24, 2010)

Advance the ogre mage to 8HD, max out ranks in concentration and give him combat casting to ensure he never fails his check to cast defensively.


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## StreamOfTheSky (May 24, 2010)

Runestar said:


> Advance the ogre mage to 8HD, max out ranks in concentration and give him combat casting to ensure he never fails his check to cast defensively.




Whoah, careful there.  Hideous Blow AND Combat Casting?  Let's not powergame this guy too much now...


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## Great Guru (May 24, 2010)

Some "minor" tweaks one could employ: change the ogre mage from giant to monstrous humanoid (which I like better than outsider); add a couple hit dice (or even just 1 for the boost to BAB and saving throws); definitely raise its AC.

I think an "ogre warlock" would be cool.


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## Runestar (May 24, 2010)

> I think an "ogre warlock" would be cool.




Or what if we simply tacked warlock lvs onto an existing ogre?

Treating them as non-associated class lvs, we can get an ogre warlock5 as a cr6 npc. 

Just ignore invocations with a save (so their low cha is not an issue). 

Lacks many of the iconic abilities such as flight or cone of cold, but some of the lower lv invocations could be useful in combat, such as hid..*GAH!!! Why can't I stop thinking of how to optimize hideous blow?!?*


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## Uder (May 24, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Hideous blow is never the answer.




If you buy into the premise that Hideous Blow provokes an AoO, then you're right. I'm in the "as if" crowd though.


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## pawsplay (May 24, 2010)

Uder said:


> If you buy into the premise that Hideous Blow provokes an AoO, then you're right. I'm in the "as if" crowd though.




Even then, your criticals will make you weep with regret.


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## Runestar (May 25, 2010)

The ogre mage has reach, right? Give it a reach weapon and provoking AoOs may not even be an issue when you are attacking from 20-ft away and the players are in no position to take advantage of this. Combos well with flyby attack too.


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## icallitdnd (May 25, 2010)

How about a nice eldritch glaive? Touch makes attacking easier and it slides right into the whole warlock thing. If thats not enough dm can slip a haste spell on him


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## Dandu (May 25, 2010)

Haste does not affect Eldritch Glaive because the glaive gives you iterative attacks based on your BAB. Says so in the feat.


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## Jhaelen (May 25, 2010)

Runestar said:


> MM5 has the mindflayer cleric4, which for +2cr, gives it a massive boost in AC and hp, as well as some actual melee capability.



Yeah, it does. However, it's not really worth the CR boost. I wanted to use them in my last adventure but after reading the stat-block I decided I'd rather create my own version to get something more effective.

The main problem is that the cleric levels don't actually add anything wortwhile - the default mindflayer options are always better!

So, for a start I decided that cleric levels are non-associated for mind-flayers. Then I switched most of the feats to get Practiced Spellcaster (for the cleric levels) and Practiced Manifester (for the psion levels).
Note, that I used the XPH version of the mind-flayer as a basis switching a couple of powers for additional fun (empathic transfer, mental barrier, vigor, etc.).

The results looked a lot more like a CR 10 monster. It may even have been a bit on the strong side, at least considering its defenses (SR30, AC40+). But then the party's effective level was 15, so it was okay (I used two of them plus six Thoon soldiers for an EL14 encounter).


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