# OGL: What Are The Publishers Saying



## Olrox17

Hopefully nobody makes the mistake of signing the new “””Open””” Game License. Making a lot of noise and defending the 1.0 OGL’s non-revokability seems like the best strategy right now.
However, if I was a 3pp I’d also consider moving my company in the EU or opening a new company there. EU laws and courts could prove to be a very tough nut to crack for WotC lawyers.


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## jerryrice4949

Bummer.  I was intestate in the Broken Weave kickstarter but I am not backing something with the C7d6 system.


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## dbolack

I've seen a number of publishers who I've had content from RPGNow through DriveThru send me "Going out of OGL" sale notices.


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## CapnZapp

Olrox17 said:


> Hopefully nobody makes the mistake of signing the new “””Open””” Game License.



That's fair.



> Making a lot of noise and defending the 1.0 OGL’s non-revokability seems like the best strategy right now.



Making noise is easy and free and nobody will stop you, so that's fair too. On the other hand, it is likely completely inconsequential, and you should consider whether it's worth your while to waste your time shouting in the wind before you decide to do so.



> However, if I was a 3pp I’d also consider moving my company in the EU or opening a new company there. EU laws and courts could prove to be a very tough nut to crack for WotC lawyers.



This is dangerously naive. Any approach that doesn't realize that nobody in the business (I mean zero companies other than Hasbro themselves) have the resources needed to fight this new OGL in court. 

So all those arguments "they can't enforce this" will not matter. Hasbro will never have to enforce this, since the mere threat of getting sued by a megacorp will make any ttrpg publisher melt away, even the "biggest" ones like Paizo. 

The only realistic paths forward I can see are 
a) sign the OGL 1.1 
or 
b) leave D&D and burn your bridges behind you
or, of course, 
c) make content just for the fun of it (if you don't profit from it, Hasbro doesn't care about you)


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## MNblockhead

jerryrice4949 said:


> Bummer.  I was intestate in the Broken Weave kickstarter but I am not backing something with the C7d6 system.



Curious why?  I never heard of the C7d6 system and will be looking it up to see what it is about. Why wouldn't you back something with C7d6?  Just don't like the system?


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## DaveMage

I'm waiting to hear from Paizo, Goodman, Frog God, and Kobold Press.   Of course, the OGL 1.1 still hasn't actually been released, so maybe there's still hope 1.0a sticks around?  (Although WotC is unlikely to ever be trusted again.)

It's amazing they didn't learn anything from the GSL fiasco, but maybe it's all new people now.


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## UngeheuerLich

Don't you have insurances to cover legal costs in US?


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## Reynard

DaveMage said:


> I'm waiting to hear from Paizo, Goodman, Frog God, and Kobold Press.   Of course, the OGL 1.1 still hasn't actually been released, so maybe there's still hope 1.0a sticks around?  (Although WotC is unlikely to ever be trusted again.)



The big companies are less likely to have kneejerk reactions. They are talking to WotC, to each other, and to counsel, no doubt.


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## eyeheartawk

UngeheuerLich said:


> Don't you have insurances to cover legal costs in US?



You mean like in business insurance? 

That's only for certain things, like if somebody gets injured on your premises and sues your company, things like that. 

I'm unaware of any kind of insurance for something like copyright/IP litigation.


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## FoolishFrost

This is wotc.  They were willing to breach contract with Weiss and Hickman.  Being dumb, greedy, and throwing their weight around seems to be the new normal for them.

That said, I feel bad for anyone who signed under duress, because they are screwed.  Even if this gets reversed, they will have already signed away their rights.


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## FoolishFrost

Troll lords seems to using it for a fire sale.  Seemed to insinuate they were selling off all stock of 5e stuff and done with it.


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## overgeeked

What’s the “C7d6 system”? Is that what they’re calling Vortex now?


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## Olrox17

CapnZapp said:


> This is dangerously naive. Any approach that doesn't realize that nobody in the business (I mean zero companies other than Hasbro themselves) have the resources needed to fight this new OGL in court.
> 
> So all those arguments "they can't enforce this" will not matter. Hasbro will never have to enforce this, since the mere threat of getting sued by a megacorp will make any ttrpg publisher melt away, even the "biggest" ones like Paizo.
> 
> The only realistic paths forward I can see are
> a) sign the OGL 1.1
> or
> b) leave D&D and burn your bridges behind you
> or, of course,
> c) make content just for the fun of it (if you don't profit from it, Hasbro doesn't care about you)



Having contingency plans and multiple potential avenues of attack and defense is never a bad idea. US citizens often forget there are different legislations and court systems out there, some of which aren't as disproportionally favorable to ultra rich corps as their own.


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## schneeland

overgeeked said:


> What’s the “C7d6 system”? Is that what they’re calling Vortex now?



If I gathered it correctly from a follow-up tweet, it's the system they use with Age of Sigmar.


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## overgeeked

FoolishFrost said:


> This is wotc.  They were willing to breach contract with Weiss and Hickman.  Being dumb, greedy, and throwing their weight around seems to be the new normal for them.
> 
> That said, I feel bad for engine who signed under duress, because they are screwed.  Even if this gets reversed, they will have already signed away their rights.



Who signed?


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## eyeheartawk

FoolishFrost said:


> Troll lords seems to using it for a fire sale.  Seemed to insinuate they were selling off all stock of 5e stuff and done with it.



Probably for the best. 

It probably also doesn't help that their Amazing Adventures 5e stuff had a bunch of Satine Phoenix all over it, including on the cover.


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## overgeeked

schneeland said:


> If I gathered it correctly from a follow-up tweet, it's the system they use with Age of Sigmar.



Ah. Thanks.


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## taosecurity

CapnZapp said:


> So all those arguments "they can't enforce this" will not matter. Hasbro will never have to enforce this, since the mere threat of getting sued by a megacorp will make any ttrpg publisher melt away, even the "biggest" ones like Paizo.



This x1000. "Risk" is the key point missed by many commentators. I see lawyers on both sides, but most (all?) agree that they do not know how a court would rule. That means the risk is too high for publishers, especially the smallest ones. The "chilling effect" of this license is key.


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## CapnZapp

Olrox17 said:


> Having contingency plans and multiple potential avenues of attack and defense is never a bad idea. US citizens often forget there are different legislations and court systems out there, some of which aren't as disproportionally favorable to ultra rich corps as their own.



The only realistic path for any third-party publisher for D&D content is... to cease being a third-party publisher for D&D content. 

What you're saying might be technically true. I just don't think it has any practical concerns.


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## CapnZapp

taosecurity said:


> This x1000. "Risk" is the key point missed by many commentators. I see lawyers on both sides, but most (all?) agree that they do not know how a court would rule. That means the risk is too high for publishers, especially the smallest ones. The "chilling effect" of this license is key.



Of course.

Questions such as "is it legal?" or "they can't stop me in court" are completely beside the point.

Heck, they probably even don't have to actually publish the damn thing! Already today the only sane decision is to leave D&D behind, and scorch your earth behind you.


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## eyeheartawk

CapnZapp said:


> Heck, they probably even don't have to actually publish the damn thing! Already today the only sane decision is to leave D&D behind, and scorch your earth behind you.



Yeah, good point. 

If basically nobody accepts the terms they've achieved their goal of eliminating the marketplace, wresting total control of the IP and also not have to stand up and man the mechanisms to enforce it, collect royalties etc.


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## Mistwell

UngeheuerLich said:


> Don't you have insurances to cover legal costs in US?



Of someone suing you? Yes.

Of someone cancelling a license? Not really.


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## GMforPowergamers

jerryrice4949 said:


> Bummer.  I was intestate in the Broken Weave kickstarter but I am not backing something with the C7d6 system.



I had already signed up to be emailed when it went live.


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## CapnZapp

eyeheartawk said:


> Yeah, good point.
> 
> If basically nobody accepts the terms they've achieved their goal of eliminating the marketplace, wresting total control of the IP and also not have to stand up and man the mechanisms to enforce it, collect royalties etc.



The idea of collecting 25% of revenue (above x dollars) is a complete pipe dream.

This isn't the business of selling virtual strawberries to kids with phones. 

This is table-top roleplaying. If we round the total revenue of the entire business outside of Hasbro we get... (calculating, rounding) "frak all" (in the words of Juice Media).





No entity in this business can stomach an "Apple Tax", so Hasbro will easily accomplish their goal of making everybody scatter, leaving D&D to WotC and only WotC.


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## zooey

This is from the DMDave article:
"*We can't fight this in court, even though we're confident we'd win*. It would be extremely expensive and take two years just to get a verdict. And then we can expect another 4+ years of appeals just to have Wizards settle in the end. During that time, the courts could file an injunction preventing me from publishing anything."

That pretty much says it all.


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## GMforPowergamers

UngeheuerLich said:


> Don't you have insurances to cover legal costs in US?



US insurance is a joke.  Home owners Insurance you pay $100-$200 per month but if something happens you have to meet a deductible (if reasonable it's $500, but for some its 2-3k) and they have riders that just say "opps nope not paying" that make them something you are ALREADY practicly need a lawyer for... I don't want to talk about car and health insurance, they make the Home owners seem easy.

Some businesses (smart ones) still pay the extor...insurance, but that wont cover anywhere NEAR enough to do these things.


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## CapnZapp

zooey said:


> This is from the DMDave article:
> "*We can't fight this in court, even though we're confident we'd win*. It would be extremely expensive and take two years just to get a verdict. And then we can expect another 4+ years of appeals just to have Wizards settle in the end. During that time, the courts could file an injunction preventing me from publishing anything."
> 
> That pretty much says it all.



Yes of course.


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## GMforPowergamers

taosecurity said:


> This x1000. "Risk" is the key point missed by many commentators. I see lawyers on both sides, but most (all?) agree that they do not know how a court would rule. That means the risk is too high for publishers, especially the smallest ones. The "chilling effect" of this license is key.



yes, I have a few times broken down what that risk means for a 'big' company... for a small one it's a death sentence.


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## eyeheartawk

GMforPowergamers said:


> US insurance is a joke.  Home owners Insurance you pay $100-$200 per month but if something happens you have to meet a deductible (if reasonable it's $500, but for some its 2-3k) and they have riders that just say "opps nope not paying" that make them something you are ALREADY practicly need a lawyer for... I don't want to talk about car and health insurance, they make the Home owners seem easy.
> 
> Some businesses (smart ones) still pay the extor...insurance, but that wont cover anywhere NEAR enough to do these things.



Can you imagine the insurance business model in any other context?

_Hi Valued Customer,

We're so pleased you chose OGL Insurance. Please note the following terms:

You will pay us monthly for coverage. Should you choose to actually use the thing you are paying for you will then pay an additional fee at that time. Once you've done that we will review your request and pay you an amount less than what is really required. Once we've done that we'll raise your monthly rates. 

Oh, also, if you use this more than we would like we will drop you entirely. We are aware that you cannot control the factors that lead you to make a claim as they are outside of your control, but we'll do it anyway. _


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## overgeeked

CapnZapp said:


> No entity in this business can stomach an "Apple Tax", so Hasbro will easily accomplish their goal of making everybody scatter, leaving D&D to WotC and only WotC.



Which would be fine if WotC products were worth a damn. There’s more creativity and cool design in the tiniest OSR product. 5E’s mission statement was to be as bland as possible. WotC couldn’t keep up creatively so they decided to nuke the industry.


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## jerryrice4949

GMforPowergamers said:


> yes, I have a few times broken down what that risk means for a 'big' company... for a small one it's a death sentence.



Either way may be a death sentence.  One fast and one slow.  I think a lot of  these publishers moving to their own system may find a slow death.  At first most of their followers will come with them but if the movie is a big hit and WoTC makes some great products a lot of people will drift back.


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## UngainlyTitan

CapnZapp said:


> The only realistic path for any third-party publisher for D&D content is... to cease being a third-party publisher for D&D content.



That is fine for publishers that have a non D&D market but it is my understanding that there are a lot of publishers that only have a D&D market or their more successful products serve the D&D market.


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## overgeeked

jerryrice4949 said:


> and WoTC makes some great products a lot of people will drift back.



They haven’t done that in years.


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## eyeheartawk

jerryrice4949 said:


> Either way may be a death sentence.  One fast and one slow.  I think a lot of  these publishers moving to their own system may find a slow death.  At first most of their followers will come with them but if the movie is a big hit and WoTC makes some great products a lot of people will drift back.



Eh, maybe?

It'll kind of just look like the market did in the 80s and 90s, which if you're like me isn't entirely a bad thing. No more Dark Souls 5E, that sort of stuff. Systems can actually fit their themes and tones again now.


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## CapnZapp

UngainlyTitan said:


> That is fine for publishers that have a non D&D market but it is my understanding that there are a lot of publishers that only have a D&D market or their more successful products serve the D&D market.



Yes I am aware that the only path forward for many small publishers is to simply cease publishing and go back to their day jobs.

Either way, I never said I was fine with anything. Just laying out the grim reality.


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## CapnZapp

GMforPowergamers said:


> yes, I have a few times broken down what that risk means for a 'big' company... for a small one it's a death sentence.



There are no 'big' companies in this business (except Hasbro itself)


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## GMforPowergamers

eyeheartawk said:


> Can you imagine the insurance business model in any other context?



yes and no... I understand (better then I wish I did) how they make a profit.


eyeheartawk said:


> _Hi Valued Customer,
> 
> We're so pleased you chose OGL Insurance. Please note the following terms:
> 
> You will pay us monthly for coverage. Should you choose to actually use the thing you are paying for you will then pay an additional fee at that time. Once you've done that we will review your request and pay you an amount less than what is really required. Once we've done that we'll raise your monthly rates.
> 
> Oh, also, if you use this more than we would like we will drop you entirely. We are aware that you cannot control the factors that lead you to make a claim as they are outside of your control, but we'll do it anyway. _



this is pretty much US insurance in a nut shell... and it's better now then 20 years ago when it was worse then that...


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## Sacrosanct

Our own Statement:

The future with the OGL 1.1​January 10, 2023


The recent couple of weeks have been a doozy for the gaming community, especially for third-party publishers who use the OGL, like yours truly.  As you can imagine, I've been watching this pretty closely.

How will this land?  What do the lawyers say?  What are the risks?

*Part 1: The existing OGL 1.0a*
Will this still exist when the new OGL 1.1 comes out?  Can Hasbro really de-authorize it?
The only thing that is clear from a legal standpoint is that it isn't clear. IP lawyers who have chimed in are of differing opinions.  But one thing seems clear regardless: even if I might "be right", there is no possible way I can fight a C&D or lawsuit by Hasbro in court.
Therefore, going forward Izegrim Creations will *not *be putting out any additional products using any version of the OGL.  Not in the near future.  Not until at least it gets hashed out in court by someone with pockets deep enough to fight Hasbro on this.

*Part 2: The new leaked OGL 1.1*
Judging by the 1.1 version of the OGL (the leaked version as of Jan 10, 2023), the specifics of that license are very problematic on several levels.  These include but are not limited to: mandatory reporting, 30-day alteration changes, giving all ownership rights in perpetuity to Hasbro, and being on the hook for paying Hasbro lawyers if _they _decide they want to get them involved.  Suffice to say, there really isn't enough incentive in them currently to offset all of the risks and issues I see within it.
Therefore, going forward Izegrim Creations will *not *be using the new OGL 1.1 in any form, commercial or non-commercial, as it is written now.

*Part 3: Going forward.*
The good news is there are still plenty of ways to be creative and support the gaming community.  We've put out material that doesn't use the OGL, and will continue to do so.  We are currently collaborating with some experienced and great industry professionals to put out an open gaming system using Creative Commons, to allow all other creators and publishers to do what the original OGL was intended to do.  So stay tuned!


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## Reynard

eyeheartawk said:


> Eh, maybe?
> 
> It'll kind of just look like the market did in the 80s and 90s, which if you're like me isn't entirely a bad thing. No more Dark Souls 5E, that sort of stuff. Systems can actually fit their themes and tones again now.



So a return to a time when D&D was completely dominant but there was only one voice in that D&D space? That doesn't sound better.


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## FoolishFrost

overgeeked said:


> Who signed?



Edited.  Meant anyone, not engine.


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## eyeheartawk

Reynard said:


> So a return to a time when D&D was completely dominant but there was only one voice in that D&D space? That doesn't sound better.



As dominant as they are now? There were lots of other really big games that came out in this period and had tons of support. Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Star Wars D6, most of the World of Darkness plus lots of others.


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## BMaC

zooey said:


> This is from the DMDave article:
> "*We can't fight this in court, even though we're confident we'd win*. It would be extremely expensive and take two years just to get a verdict. And then we can expect another 4+ years of appeals just to have Wizards settle in the end. During that time, the courts could file an injunction preventing me from publishing anything."
> 
> That pretty much says it all.






zooey said:


> This is from the DMDave article:
> "*We can't fight this in court, even though we're confident we'd win*. It would be extremely expensive and take two years just to get a verdict. And then we can expect another 4+ years of appeals just to have Wizards settle in the end. During that time, the courts could file an injunction preventing me from publishing anything."
> 
> That pretty much says it all.



Hasbro has such a weak case that a judge is not going to grant an injunction pending appeal.


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## Quarzis

I do wonder if there may be others out there (not TTRPG publishers) whose best interest would be served by challenging WotC’s contention that they can cancel the OGL.  A lot of modern computer programs are based on open source code.  While I’m sure the big licenses (like Apache) are better drafted, it would not surprise me if there were code snippets that came from less well worded licenses.  This could have huge knock on impacts for industries far outside of the RPG industry. I would think there are several multi billion dollar firms (with far more lawyers and resources than Hasbro) that would want any question that a perpetual open source license could be deauthorized to be put to rest (not too mention open source foundations themselves). Can you imagine the copy cat and copyright trolls that could come out of the wood work?


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## BMaC

Quarzis said:


> I do wonder if there may be others out there (not TTRPG publishers) whose best interest would be served by challenging WotC’s contention that they can cancel the OGL.  A lot of modern computer programs are based on open source code.  While I’m sure the big licenses (like Apache) are better drafted, it would not surprise me if there were code snippets that came from less well worded licenses.  This could have huge knock on impacts for industries far outside of the RPG industry. I would think there are several multi billion dollar firms (with far more lawyers and resources than Hasbro) that would want any question that a perpetual open source license could be deauthorized to be put to rest (not too mention open source foundations themselves). Can you imagine the copy cat and copyright trolls that could come out of the wood work?



I wonder if EFF would be interested...


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## Reynard

eyeheartawk said:


> As dominant as they are now? There were lots of other really big games that came out in this period and had tons of support. Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, Star Wars D6, most of the World of Darkness plus lots of others.



Other than WoD for a relatively short time I think you are overestimating the market share of those games.

There are lots of great games now with dedicated fanbases, probably significantly more than were around in the 80s because the bar to entry is so much lower. We don't need the OGL to go away for new ideas to flourish. The OGL is a driver of new ideas, in fact.


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## overgeeked

Reynard said:


> We don't need the OGL to go away for new ideas to flourish. The OGL is a driver of new ideas, in fact.



The OGL crippled creativity by making people force and shoe horn their ideas into a system that wasn’t well suited to their purpose. It forced designers and companies to adapt and mangle their ideas to fit D&D rather than let their ideas be their own unique thing. The OGL did drive sales though. Sales are not the same as creativity.


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## GMforPowergamers

CapnZapp said:


> There are no 'big' companies in this business (except Hasbro itself)



oh those quote marks were on purpose.


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## GMforPowergamers

BMaC said:


> Hasbro has such a weak case that a judge is not going to grant an injunction pending appeal.



but would you bet your house on that? I don't know about you but if someone told me that I had a 95% chance that I would win I would STILL have to think really hard about betting my home.


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## Grendel_Khan

Reynard said:


> Other than WoD for a relatively short time I think you are overestimating the market share of those games.
> 
> There are lots of great games now with dedicated fanbases, probably significantly more than were around in the 80s because the bar to entry is so much lower. We don't need the OGL to go away for new ideas to flourish. The OGL is a driver of new ideas, in fact.




Games like Shadowrun and WoD didn't have to beat D&D to make an impact. They were still major influences, and had a much greater market share than similar games have now.

But also...were you gaming during that period? It really was very different. D&D was still D&D, but it didn't suck up all the oxygen in the room. And people also relied entirely on game stores, including the ability to browse and discover stuff organically. I'm not saying it was a better time, the good old days, etc.—the games I most like to play today didn't exist then. But the relationship between D&D and the rest of the hobby was very different.


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## eyeheartawk

Grendel_Khan said:


> But also...were you gaming during that period? It really was very different. D&D was still D&D, but it didn't suck up all the oxygen in the room. And people also relied entirely on game stores, including the ability to browse and discover stuff organically. I'm not saying it was a better time, the good old days, etc.—the games I most like to play today didn't exist then. But the relationship between D&D and the rest of the hobby was very different.



I was in game stores every week in the late 90s and early 200s and yeah, the transition from a diversified marketplace to everything having a D20 label slapped on it was night and day. It really was omnipresent and inescapable.


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## Nodoze

BMaC said:


> Hasbro has such a weak case that a judge is not going to grant an injunction pending appeal.



*Status quo* & *first mover advantage* matters...  The likely injunction would be against WotC...

As soon as OGL1.1 is released a *Class Action Lawsuit* could likely get an *injunction or* Temporary Restraining Order (*TRO*) *stopping all enforcement of OGL1.1 until the validity of OGL1.0a revocation can be adjudicated*...  Considering all factors status quo would likely be maintained...

A well structured & accountable *Legal Defense Fund* could also be established to help defer costs for the Class Action.  Personally I would donate to help & think many others would as well...

With the above approach the cost to any individual person/entity would not be that great...  *HasBorg*/WoTC would likely be stopped dead in their tracks until the revocation question is answered...  I think they know this and that is why they are silent...


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## Micah Sweet

overgeeked said:


> The OGL crippled creativity by making people force and shoe horn their ideas into a system that wasn’t well suited to their purpose. It forced designers and companies to adapt and mangle their ideas to fit D&D rather than let their ideas be their own unique thing. The OGL did drive sales though. Sales are not the same as creativity.



I disagree.   There are plenty of products that wouldn't exist at all, in any system, without the OGL.  Folks just wouldn't publish.


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## Reynard

Grendel_Khan said:


> Games like Shadowrun and WoD didn't have to beat D&D to make an impact. They were still major influences, *and had a much greater market share than similar games have now.*



Citation needed.


Grendel_Khan said:


> But also...were you gaming during that period? It really was very different. D&D was still D&D, but it didn't suck up all the oxygen in the room. And people also relied entirely on game stores, including the ability to browse and discover stuff organically. I'm not saying it was a better time, the good old days, etc.—the games I most like to play today didn't exist then. But the relationship between D&D and the rest of the hobby was very different.



I can assure you I was, and the biggest game shelf at Kenmore Comics in Akron was still D&D by a wide margin.

There have ALWAYS been games by other companies, with people that love them. And yet D&D has also always been the market leader by a wide margin, for some reason or another. It is a strange thing to even debate.


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## mamba

overgeeked said:


> The OGL crippled creativity by making people force and shoe horn their ideas into a system that wasn’t well suited to their purpose. It forced designers and companies to adapt and mangle their ideas to fit D&D rather than let their ideas be their own unique thing. The OGL did drive sales though. Sales are not the same as creativity.



Sounds like you are confusing the OGL for the 5e market it allowed to flourish.

You can also use it for your own TTRPG and be sure WotC doesn’t come after you.


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## Reynard

eyeheartawk said:


> I was in game stores every week in the late 90s and early 200s and yeah, the transition from a diversified marketplace to everything having a D20 label slapped on it was night and day. It really was omnipresent and inescapable.



No one is saying that the d20 glut did not happen, but it was much shorter than most folks remember. It imploded after 3 years with the release of 3.5 and the collapse of the d20STL. I was there, working in the industry as a freelancer.


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## FoolishFrost

BMaC said:


> Hasbro has such a weak case that a judge is not going to grant an injunction pending appeal.



Objection: "Opinion"  Judges can grant injunctions based on the position of the planets and the day of the week.  And have.  And will.


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## Reynard

overgeeked said:


> The OGL crippled creativity by making people force and shoe horn their ideas into a system that wasn’t well suited to their purpose. It forced designers and companies to adapt and mangle their ideas to fit D&D rather than let their ideas be their own unique thing. The OGL did drive sales though. Sales are not the same as creativity.



I don't buy this at all. I think the opposite occurred because people sought something different just because so much material was homogenous. After all, the Forge was during this time. Skarka was during this time. Fate came out during this time. PbtA rose as a result of the innovations during this time. It is demonstrably false to say that innovation died because of the OGL.


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## BMaC

Litigate, don't capitulate


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## SAVeira

Reynard said:


> No one is saying that the d20 glut did not happen, but it was much shorter than most folks remember. It imploded after 3 years with the release of 3.5 and the collapse of the d20STL. I was there, working in the industry as a freelancer.



There are game stores in my area that are still stuck with merchandise from the d20 glut.  Since then, they have not ordered almost anything D&D related but books from WotC, Pazio or Kobold Press.  More than one retailer has told me that they consider a 3rd party 5E book to a risk to carry.  They will other games systems like CoC, Shadowrun or Savage World, but do not want to experience a 5E glut like they saw with d20.


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## overgeeked

Micah Sweet said:


> I disagree. There are plenty of products that wouldn't exist at all, in any system, without the OGL. Folks just wouldn't publish.



Publishing and creation are different beasts. Look at the OSR. That those retroclones exist as published books is because of the OGL. But creative referees have always made their own stuff. Always published in various niche ways. Zines, photocopied house rules and systems, swapping ideas over drinks at a con, etc. What’s different because of the OGL isn’t the creative drive rather the ability to freely publish and make a buck. Completely different things. So when people say the OGL unleashed people’s creativity I have to object. It did no such thing. Gamers have always and will always be creative. The OGL let people make a buck off their home brew without fear of a WotC lawyer’s C&D. That’s all it did.


----------



## Reynard

SAVeira said:


> There are game stores in my area that are still stuck with merchandise from the d20 glut.  Since then, they have not ordered almost anything D&D related but books from WotC, Pazio or Kobold Press.  More than one retailer has told me that they consider a 3rd party 5E book to a risk to carry.  They will other games systems like CoC, Shadowrun or Savage World, but do not want to experience a 5E glut like they saw with d20.



People running their businesses like it is 2003. Whatcha gonna do?


----------



## Reynard

overgeeked said:


> Publishing and creation are different beasts. Look at the OSR. That those retroclones exist as published books is because of the OGL. But creative referees have always made their own stuff. Always published in various niche ways. Zines, photocopied house rules and systems, swapping ideas over drinks at a con, etc. What’s different because of the OGL isn’t the creative drive rather the ability to freely publish and make a buck. Completely different things. So when people say the OGL unleashed people’s creativity I have to object. It did no such thing. Gamers have always and will always be creative. The OGL let people make a buck off their home brew without fear of a WotC lawyer’s C&D. That’s all it did.



The fact that folks thought they might "make a buck" drove many of them to create things they otherwise wouldn't.


----------



## overgeeked

Reynard said:


> It is demonstrably false to say that innovation died because of the OGL.



I didn’t say die. I said crippled.


----------



## Desdichado

Here's the ACKS response: The Perfidious Treachery of WOTC


----------



## overgeeked

Reynard said:


> The fact that folks thought they might "make a buck" drove many of them to create things they otherwise wouldn't.



Yes. Exactly. They chased the market. That’s not what I’d call creative.


----------



## Reynard

overgeeked said:


> Yes. Exactly. They chased the market. That’s not what I’d call creative.



That displays a complete misunderstanding of what it means to work in creative industries.


----------



## Micah Sweet

overgeeked said:


> Publishing and creation are different beasts. Look at the OSR. That those retroclones exist as published books is because of the OGL. But creative referees have always made their own stuff. Always published in various niche ways. Zines, photocopied house rules and systems, swapping ideas over drinks at a con, etc. What’s different because of the OGL isn’t the creative drive rather the ability to freely publish and make a buck. Completely different things. So when people say the OGL unleashed people’s creativity I have to object. It did no such thing. Gamers have always and will always be creative. The OGL let people make a buck off their home brew without fear of a WotC lawyer’s C&D. That’s all it did.



I don't think its fair to assume from your statement that you meant either personal, private creativity that hardly anyone gets to see or know about, or the "concept" of creativity.  Those things aren't affected by much of anything.


----------



## CapnZapp

BMaC said:


> Hasbro has such a weak case that a judge is not going to grant an injunction pending appeal.



Do you have a couple of million dollars you're willing to bet on being right here?

No, didn't think so.


----------



## kenada

CapnZapp said:


> There are no 'big' companies in this business (except Hasbro itself)



Embracer Group has a larger market cap than Hasbro. I’ve seen it argued they’re the real competition that worries Hasbro (not Paizo or any of the the others).


----------



## overgeeked

Reynard said:


> That displays a complete misunderstanding of what it means to work in creative industries.



Weird. Because I make a living in creative industries. I understand what it does to people when they chase the market instead of create what they’re passionate about. Chasing the market gives us endless bland samey blockbusters rather than anything new.


----------



## deganawida

eyeheartawk said:


> I was in game stores every week in the late 90s and early 200s and yeah, the transition from a diversified marketplace to everything having a D20 label slapped on it was night and day. It really was omnipresent and inescapable.



And depressing.  Don't get me wrong, I have bought and played my share of d20 stuff (both WotC and 3PP), but I loved the diversity of systems of the 90s.  D&D was huge, yes, but there were so many other interesting games to play, and I played Palladium, WoD, Shadowrun, and wanted a bunch more.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Desdichado said:


> Here's the ACKS response: The Perfidious Treachery of WOTC



This is a very good article on the matter. Too bad it's from Macris. 

I vote we alter the OGL 1.1 to apply to nobody _except _him.


----------



## Desdichado

eyeheartawk said:


> This is a very good article on the matter. Too bad it's from Macris.
> 
> I vote we alter the OGL 1.1 to apply to nobody _except _him.



Reported


----------



## CapnZapp

Desdichado said:


> Here's the ACKS response: The Perfidious Treachery of WOTC



The relevant bit, so people don't have to leave the site just to see what your post is about.

"The American justice system is pay-to-play, and the amount you have to pay is unfathomable to those who haven’t gone through it. I consulted with one of New York’s top IP litigators last week to find out how much money I’d have to raise via GoFundMe to fight Wizards. When I asked him if $100,000 would be enough, he laughed. He said I’d need $500,000 to even have a chance of summary judgment, and $4 million for a trial. Wizards has a war chest measured in millions and will fight this out for 4-6 years."



			
				ACKS said:
			
		

> Therefore, the only choice is to abandon the OGL entirely.



The one sentence summary. You don't need to read the rest.


----------



## reelo

News from Kobold Press:









						Raising Our Flag - Kobold Press
					

Kobold Press is committed to open gaming. We are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: Project Black Flag.




					koboldpress.com


----------



## Ulfgeir

Grendel_Khan said:


> Games like Shadowrun and WoD didn't have to beat D&D to make an impact. They were still major influences, and had a *much greater market share than similar games have now.*



WoD had at one time yes, Shadowrun nope. It might have hang around for a long time, but it never had a big marketshare. Fans that love the setting, yes. But that is a different thing, and it never made much impact on the rpg scene afaik.


----------



## see

The game line most impacted by the original release of the OGL and SRD was Palladium, and that was because Palladium's system was such a close knockoff of D&D in the first place.


----------



## BMaC

CapnZapp said:


> Do you have a couple of million dollars you're willing to bet on being right here?
> 
> No, didn't think so.



I'm in Europe.  We use neither your currency nor your legal system.


----------



## Desdichado

Ulfgeir said:


> WoD had at one time yes, Shadowrun nope. It might have hang around for a long time, but it never had a big marketshare. Fans that love the setting, yes. But that is a different thing, and it never made much impact on the rpg scene afaik.



Stuff was different in different markets too, though. Graeme Davis, in the revised Cubicle 7 "director's cut" of The Enemy Within mentioned that he was told by the head of Games Workshop to make the campaign the way he did in part because of the success of Call of Cthulhu and Thieves' World in the British Market, for instance, relative to D&D.


----------



## Desdichado

BMaC said:


> I'm in Europe.  We use neither your currency nor your legal system.



Well, bring your lawsuit then, in whatever jurisdiction you can do so. I'll be cheering you on. Put your money where your mouth is. Whatever currency you like.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Desdichado said:


> Reported



Cool. 

Report away. 

I'm not the one who employed and defended known Nazi and grooming enthusiast Milo Yiannopoulos. But you do you.


----------



## Greg Benage

reelo said:


> News from Kobold Press:



Let a thousand fantasy heartbreakers bloom.

(In the Kickstarter era, it's unlikely that any hearts will be broken.)


----------



## Gammadoodler

reelo said:


> News from Kobold Press:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raising Our Flag - Kobold Press
> 
> 
> Kobold Press is committed to open gaming. We are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: Project Black Flag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koboldpress.com



An interesting knock-on effect of all this is the "free" publicity 3PP are getting to announce systems that are not dependent on the WOTC ecosystem.


----------



## mhd

Greg Benage said:


> Let a thousand fantasy heartbreakers bloom.



Green Ronins official motto.


----------



## BMaC

reelo said:


> News from Kobold Press:
> 
> https://koboldpress.com/raising-our-flag/[/URL



http://


reelo said:


> News from Kobold Press:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raising Our Flag - Kobold Press
> 
> 
> Kobold Press is committed to open gaming. We are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: Project Black Flag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koboldpress.com



This is fantastic news


----------



## Reynard

reelo said:


> News from Kobold Press:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Raising Our Flag - Kobold Press
> 
> 
> Kobold Press is committed to open gaming. We are moving forward with clear-eyed work on a new Core Fantasy tabletop ruleset: available, open, and subscription-free for those who love it—Code Name: Project Black Flag.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> koboldpress.com



I am legitimately surprised and pleased. i would have bet real money Kobold would have sided with WotC -- not because they aren't for Open Gaming, or good people, but because their business is built around supporting the current, official version of D&D.


----------



## CapnZapp

BMaC said:


> I'm in Europe.  We use neither your currency nor your legal system.



I'm in Europe too. So? 

If you write for the English-speaking D&D market, good luck turning a profit if you can't sell your stuff anywhere English-speaking gamers purchase their gaming materials...


----------



## ngenius

In Ryan Dancey's thread, I hastily mentioned selling my Level Up 5e books and got a ready buyer who already paid up yesterday. Probably that premature sale was a bad idea. I see EN Publishing seems not to be affected by OGL 1.1 so the new Kickstarter that launched looks safe for 29 days. But in that case I will surely be able to purchase all the Level Up 5e books again without any OGL if that is how EN Publishing will avoid the OGL 1.1 restrictions. Could EN Publishing become our new Paizo in a post OGL world?









						Level Up: A5E Gate Pass Gazette Annual 2022
					

A hardcover compilation of archetypes, feats, spells, heritages, monsters, and more for Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition!




					www.kickstarter.com


----------



## Lakesidefantasy

DaveMage said:


> I'm waiting to hear from Paizo, Goodman, Frog God, and Kobold Press.   Of course, the OGL 1.1 still hasn't actually been released, so maybe there's still hope 1.0a sticks around?



Maybe it has been released, exactly as it's was leaked, and the above companies have already signed on to it. Maybe that's why they're not talking.


----------



## Scottius

Reynard said:


> I am legitimately surprised and pleased. i would have bet real money Kobold would have sided with WotC -- not because they aren't for Open Gaming, or good people, but because their business is built around supporting the current, official version of D&D.



I was a little worried about that too for the same reasons. As a big fan of Kobold Press I'm happy to see them not supporting 1.1. They have my support for their new direction.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

BMaC said:


> Litigate, don't capitulate



that is easy to say and hard to do.

Imagine the designer of gambling wheels walked into your office tomorrow, He told you there was a wheel that was just shy of 3/4 red, and just shy of 1/4 black... the rest were little 1% blue green and yellow... so far ONLY black has been bet on 10 to 1. if you can get 2-3 million dollars, and risk a slight chance of no income while it is spinning you can bet on red... and the wheel he tells you is not balanced... the line between red and black is where it will always land more on the red side (trust me I do this for living he says)... but the wheel might spin for 2years or more and best case at least a year... at some point the guy who bet on black will for totally sure (trust me I know he says) want the money they bet back and offer you to just stop the wheel both take 1/3 of your money back and he will give you a bag of candy and some nice shinny rocks and a tip on a horse race... just get that 2-3 million dollars up on what is for sure a sure thing.
People online keep telling you go for it... they will support you and offer a few bucks here and there to help you...

Do you risk 2-3 million and maybe your lifes work? 

THAT is risk analysis at the best case. Oh and the rub... that guy who bet on 1/4 black auto wins an gloats if no one bets against him... but he bet a rounding error of his income.


----------



## MatthewJHanson

Atlas Games talked about the OGL 1.1 in their latest update for their Planegea Kickstarter (which to the best of my knowledge is their only 5e compatible product).

Bottom line is "The OGL 1.1 as described so far is not an agreement that Atlas Games will sign."


----------



## Reynard

Lakesidefantasy said:


> Maybe it has been released, exactly as it's was leaked, and the above companies have already signed on to it. Maybe that's why they're not talking.



Kobold: Raising Our Flag - Kobold Press


----------



## Grendel_Khan

Reynard said:


> Citation needed.



Ah yes, one of the more execrable responses the internet has loosed upon us.  

Anyways I worked at the biggest hobby shop in NYC at the time and had to do monthly inventory counts for our location and others in the Northeast. Plus WW’s splatbooks became a thing because they were insanely good sellers, and if you were going into full-on game stores at that time as opposed to comic shops the racks were packed with WoD stuff as well as Shadowrun’s novel (at-the-time) cadence of supplements released to advance the game’s timeline basically in real time.


----------



## CapnZapp

ngenius said:


> I see EN Publishing seems not to be affected by OGL 1.1 so the new Kickstarter that launched looks safe for 29 days.



Where do you see that? (I followed your link but couldn't find anything relevant) Thanks


----------



## GMforPowergamers

SAVeira said:


> There are game stores in my area that are still stuck with merchandise from the d20 glut.  Since then, they have not ordered almost anything D&D related but books from WotC, Pazio or Kobold Press.  More than one retailer has told me that they consider a 3rd party 5E book to a risk to carry.  They will other games systems like CoC, Shadowrun or Savage World, but do not want to experience a 5E glut like they saw with d20.



I had a game store here inCT US that opened after 5e became a thing and the ONLY games that sold were magic, yugioh minis dice and 5e. Me and 2 buddies pre ordered copies of V5 vampire through them and so they bought 2 or 3 more for the shelf... when they went out of business' as a thank you i bought 2 of those copies from them i gave them to friends who use to LARP "for old times sake"


----------



## CapnZapp

BMaC said:


> Litigate, don't capitulate



You first.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

Reynard said:


> Kobold: Raising Our Flag - Kobold Press



signing up but that site is getting a lot of use right now


----------



## ngenius

CapnZapp said:


> Where do you see that? (I followed your link but couldn't find anything relevant) Thanks











						Level Up: A5E Gate Pass Gazette Annual 2022
					

A hardcover compilation of archetypes, feats, spells, heritages, monsters, and more for Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition!




					www.kickstarter.com
				



The Kickstarter is running for 5e compatible products right now. I have not posted the Level Up 5e books my buyer paid for yesterday, but it would be rude to cancel. If EN Publishing survives OGL 1.1, I think I can purchase new books free from the OGL if that is how EN Publishing is escaping from WoTC litigation.


----------



## CapnZapp

ngenius said:


> Level Up: A5E Gate Pass Gazette Annual 2022
> 
> 
> A hardcover compilation of archetypes, feats, spells, heritages, monsters, and more for Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.kickstarter.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Kickstarter is running for 5e compatible products right now. I have not posted the Level Up 5e books my buyer paid for yesterday, but it would be rude to cancel. If EN Publishing survives OGL 1.1, I think I can purchase new books free from the OGL if that is how EN Publishing is escaping from WoTC litigation.



I asked you where you saw EN Publishing weren't affected. Now I realize you're taking the mere fact the KS isn't stopped to mean this. Personally, I wouldn't, but at least now I see where your statement came from.


----------



## bedir than

Desdichado said:


> Well, bring your lawsuit then, in whatever jurisdiction you can do so. I'll be cheering you on. Put your money where your mouth is. Whatever currency you like.



Gambling with other people's money is always easy


----------



## CapnZapp

bedir than said:


> Gambling with other people's money is always easy



Maybe say that to the cavalier poster?


----------



## Eyes of Nine

CapnZapp said:


> c) make content just for the fun of it (if you don't profit from it, Hasbro doesn't care about you)



I am not aware of the margins on a crowdfund; but if you can land your KS in that $500k range, and take home 20% of that, and do that once or twice a year, you are living the dream, right?
Also, one thing I have not heard anyone mention yet - on Kickstarter you can limit the number of rewards. I wonder if people are going to limit the qty of rewards in such a way as to prevent them from going over 750k?


----------



## TheAlkaizer

Kevin Crawford of _Stars Without Numbers_ and _World Without Numbers_ has discussed the situation a little bit on Reddit too. His username is CardinalXimenes.

Here's the thread:


----------



## Gammadoodler

overgeeked said:


> Weird. Because I make a living in creative industries. I understand what it does to people when they chase the market instead of create what they’re passionate about. Chasing the market gives us endless bland samey blockbusters rather than anything new.



Anytime there is an opportunity to make money from a creative endeavor you will get both good and bad content made with the intent to secure that money.

But all that content, both good and bad is *more* content than was available before.


----------



## CapnZapp

Eyes of Nine said:


> I am not aware of the margins on a crowdfund; but if you can land your KS in that $500k range, and take home 20% of that, and do that once or twice a year, you are living the dream, right?
> Also, one thing I have not heard anyone mention yet - on Kickstarter you can limit the number of rewards. I wonder if people are going to limit the qty of rewards in such a way as to prevent them from going over 750k?



Nobody will stay with the OGL, since in 30 days WotC could conceivably change the number from $750,000 to just $750.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

Eyes of Nine said:


> I am not aware of the margins on a crowdfund; but if you can land your KS in that $500k range, and take home 20% of that, and do that once or twice a year, you are living the dream, right?
> Also, one thing I have not heard anyone mention yet - on Kickstarter you can limit the number of rewards. I wonder if people are going to limit the qty of rewards in such a way as to prevent them from going over 750k?



if you take home 20%... oh that is cute.

I have not done a KS, but I have talked to people who have. Taking home 7% is a "good number" and taking home a fraction of a % isn't unheard of... if you break even and have stock to try to keep selling you are at least not in the red.

Some kickstarters ARE in the red... they have there product launched, they had to kick some capital into it and haven't gotten anything back but now they have the product and hope to break even by end of year.

so lets do your 500K twice a year... oh wait that beats the $750 cap and makes you lose 20% before kickstarters cut to WotC... so lets say you make it to the wire... 750k.

what is 7% of that... $53k  (rounded) but that isn't bad. I lived off that before my fiancé moved in. That can be a good life. I know people that make much more but I know people that make much less... I know families running on less. 

So a good well balanced kickstarter that comes in at the wire could have you living wellish... but that isn't going to be the norm and we all know it.


----------



## Micah Sweet

CapnZapp said:


> Nobody will stay with the OGL, since in 30 days WotC could conceivably change the number from $750,000 to just $750.



Unless it turns out to be opt-in.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Micah Sweet said:


> Unless it turns out to be opt-in.



In which case it'll just kick the can down the road. Once they gate an actual meaningfully new SRD behind it that's probably the end of the road for alot of publishers either way.


----------



## Greg Benage

TheAlkaizer said:


> Kevin Crawford of _Stars Without Numbers_ and _World Without Numbers_ has discussed the situation a little bit on Reddit too.



I love this guy. Terrific designer, makes his games available for free, and takes a Neutral Good position on copyright law.


----------



## CapnZapp

Micah Sweet said:


> Unless it turns out to be opt-in.



No. Even if you are able to politely decline, your business still gets destroyed, since without a license, you have no future. 

The only way to be safe is to stay fully clear of the OGL - to leave the D&D market entirely and permanently. This is a sea change; easily the biggest rpg news in thirty years, probably ever.


----------



## Cadence

TheAlkaizer said:


> Kevin Crawford of _Stars Without Numbers_ and _World Without Numbers_ has discussed the situation a little bit on Reddit too. His username is CardinalXimenes.
> 
> Here's the thread:




And if he someday sells the IP to another company, or someone inherits it someday, or he turns evil, does his saying so here actually mean much if it isn't in formal legal writing somewhere with the product that some parts are public domain?   Or if he was Hasbro rich would it come down to what the courts say?


----------



## CapnZapp

Greg Benage said:


> I love this guy. Terrific designer, makes his games available for free, and takes a Neutral Good position on copyright law.



If you make stuff for free, you can afford the luxury of not giving a crap about these issues.

(I myself recommend you don't treat D&D as a source of income, so please don't read the above as flippant or dismissive)


----------



## Micah Sweet

CapnZapp said:


> No. Even if you are able to politely decline, your business still gets destroyed, since without a license, you have no future.
> 
> The only way to be safe is to stay fully clear of the OGL - to leave the D&D market entirely and permanently. This is a sea change; easily the biggest rpg news in thirty years, probably ever.



If they can't de-authorize the 1.0(a), then you can ignore 1.1 and keep using the old license.  The social contract is definitely broken, but you can keep doing business.


----------



## eyeheartawk

Micah Sweet said:


> If they can't de-authorize the 1.0(a), then you can ignore 1.1 and keep using the old license.  The social contract is definitely broken, but you can keep doing business.



I mean, sure, as long as you don't mind exposing yourself to a lawsuit by Hasbro.

Not to mention the very real risk of no marketplace carrying it because of the legal risk anyway.


----------



## CapnZapp

Micah Sweet said:


> If they can't de-authorize the 1.0(a), then you can ignore 1.1 and keep using the old license.  The social contract is definitely broken, but you can keep doing business.



Counterpoint: but they don't need to de-authorize anything, they only have to threaten it.

So... no, you can't?


----------



## Ulfgeir

Micah Sweet said:


> If they can't de-authorize the 1.0(a), then you can ignore 1.1 and keep using the old license.  The social contract is definitely broken, but you can keep doing business.



There's a difference between "Being right, and being proven right"  (loose translation of "Skillnad på att ha rätt, och att få rätt") .


----------



## dbolack

overgeeked said:


> Yes. Exactly. They chased the market. That’s not what I’d call creative.




These are not mutually exclusive concepts.


----------



## MoonSong

Sacrosanct said:


> Our own Statement:
> 
> The future with the OGL 1.1​January 10, 2023
> 
> 
> The recent couple of weeks have been a doozy for the gaming community, especially for third-party publishers who use the OGL, like yours truly.  As you can imagine, I've been watching this pretty closely.
> 
> How will this land?  What do the lawyers say?  What are the risks?
> 
> *Part 1: The existing OGL 1.0a*
> Will this still exist when the new OGL 1.1 comes out?  Can Hasbro really de-authorize it?
> The only thing that is clear from a legal standpoint is that it isn't clear. IP lawyers who have chimed in are of differing opinions.  But one thing seems clear regardless: even if I might "be right", there is no possible way I can fight a C&D or lawsuit by Hasbro in court.
> Therefore, going forward Izegrim Creations will *not *be putting out any additional products using any version of the OGL.  Not in the near future.  Not until at least it gets hashed out in court by someone with pockets deep enough to fight Hasbro on this.
> 
> *Part 2: The new leaked OGL 1.1*
> Judging by the 1.1 version of the OGL (the leaked version as of Jan 10, 2023), the specifics of that license are very problematic on several levels.  These include but are not limited to: mandatory reporting, 30-day alteration changes, giving all ownership rights in perpetuity to Hasbro, and being on the hook for paying Hasbro lawyers if _they _decide they want to get them involved.  Suffice to say, there really isn't enough incentive in them currently to offset all of the risks and issues I see within it.
> Therefore, going forward Izegrim Creations will *not *be using the new OGL 1.1 in any form, commercial or non-commercial, as it is written now.
> 
> *Part 3: Going forward.*
> The good news is there are still plenty of ways to be creative and support the gaming community.  We've put out material that doesn't use the OGL, and will continue to do so.  We are currently collaborating with some experienced and great industry professionals to put out an open gaming system using Creative Commons, to allow all other creators and publishers to do what the original OGL was intended to do.  So stay tuned!



Check heroes against darkness, it could work as an inspiration and it is already CC


----------



## GMforPowergamers

CapnZapp said:


> No. Even if you are able to politely decline, your business still gets destroyed, since without a license, you have no future.
> 
> The only way to be safe is to stay fully clear of the OGL - to leave the D&D market entirely and permanently. This is a sea change; easily the biggest rpg news in thirty years, probably ever.



The only use I can see for the current not OGL would be to get a few items out (preferable selling between 400k and 700k per year) and then taking an audience you gain by your awesome product to your own game. 

Its an advertisement. "here is a D&D thing, see how cool it is, why don't you come see this other cool thing I am working on" 

ANd without knowing the exact margins on TTRPGs (but I am guessing low) I don't know if thats worth it...

BUT BIG BUT HERE... if you are selling your homebrew adventure or campagin setting and bringing in 20k or so, this would be fine. But ain't no one starting a business' off of it.


----------



## Erdric Dragin

At this point, even if the OGL1.0a stays and isn't revoked, the damage is already done by just looking at what the fear of it alone ha caused all these companies to do. 

Either way, this leak ruined the entire community.


----------



## macd21

GMforPowergamers said:


> The only use I can see for the current not OGL would be to get a few items out (preferable selling between 400k and 700k per year) and then taking an audience you gain by your awesome product to your own game.
> 
> Its an advertisement. "here is a D&D thing, see how cool it is, why don't you come see this other cool thing I am working on"
> 
> ANd without knowing the exact margins on TTRPGs (but I am guessing low) I don't know if thats worth it...
> 
> BUT BIG BUT HERE... if you are selling your homebrew adventure or campagin setting and bringing in 20k or so, this would be fine. But ain't no one starting a business' off of it.



Even that is risky, as WotC can change the terms with just 30 days notice. Imagine you’re preparing to release your new product, anticipating 500k or so in sales, when WotC changes the OGL again and renders your product entirely non-viable. You’ve already paid for art, writing, layout etc. All for a product you can’t sell.

That was why the supposed irrevocable nature of the OGL was so important - publishers didn’t have to worry about WotC pulling the rug from under them. Only now it turns out that maybe they did…


----------



## Aldarc

Reynard said:


> I don't buy this at all. I think the opposite occurred because people sought something different just because so much material was homogenous. After all, the Forge was during this time. Skarka was during this time. Fate came out during this time. PbtA rose as a result of the innovations during this time. It is demonstrably false to say that innovation died because of the OGL.



A lot of non-D&D games came out during the time of 4e D&D when the marketplace was fragmented and before (or shortly after) 5e released, so roughly between 2008 and 2015. Almost all of these are non-OGL games.

_Apocalypse World_: 2008.
_Cortex Plus _(legal precursor to Cortex Prime): 2009.
_Dragon AGE RPG_: 2010.
_Stars Without Number_ 1e (non-OGL): 2010.
_The One Ring RPG_ (1e): 2011.
_Star Wars: Edge of the Empire_: 2012.
_Fate Core_: 2013.
_Torchbeare_r: 2013.
_Numenera_: 2013.
_Shadow of the Demon Lord_: 2015

Long before this OGL fiasco, I have seen a fair number of long-time indie designers say on Twitter that 4e D&D did more for the indie designer scene than the OGL or 5e D&D. There is a reason, however horrible it is for 5e creatives and publishers, that I have mixed feelings about what WotC is doing. Because if this "new GSL" is anything like the "old GSL," then many of the future next generation games could be designed during this time and that prospect does excite me. And we are already seeing hints of that with a number of publishers declaring a desire to make their own games. Rejoice!

Edit: Edited the above list of games into a more legible bullet-point list.


----------



## Incenjucar

I expect that at least some companies will provide conversion rules for their work. Concepts like skeleton dragons with ghostly breath weapons or whatever can easily exist in dozens of systems with enough tweaking, so selling a book of monsters for "Pits and Perils" or "Recesses and Rascals" and then making a conversion chart freely available lets you keep your profit without forcing hard decisions on the players and GMs.


----------



## Desdichado

bedir than said:


> Gambling with other people's money is always easy



Exactly my point. As is blithely suggesting that you're not even gambling... as long as its someone else's money.


----------



## UVAtom

I have a question for the stock market gurus on this board. It would seem to me, that if all of our uproar about the OGL is to have any real impact, it would need to affect the stock price. Which is doesn't appear to be doing (to my amateur eyes). Can someone elaborate?


----------



## bedir than

UVAtom said:


> I have a question for the stock market gurus on this board. It would seem to me, that if all of our uproar about the OGL is to have any real impact, it would need to affect the stock price. Which is doesn't appear to be doing (to my amateur eyes). Can someone elaborate?



Corporate investors probably aren't looking at the angst of 10,000 people on Twitter for the 5th largest earner (at best) in a company with a billion or so consumers.


----------



## darjr

Teos Abadia talks to Baldman Games about OneD&D. It looks like a regular stream they do. But at one point they talk about the OGL 1.1 and I think this pretty much confirms the rumors too. He pretty much says it's no good.

Baldman Games runs D&D at PAX, GenCon, Origins for WotC. They also run WinterFantasy. I think they are a WotC partner or if not might as well be.




darjr said:


> Teos Abadia talks to Baldman Games about OneD&D. It looks like a regular stream they do. But at one point they talk about the OGL 1.1 and I think this pretty much confirms the rumors too. He pretty much says it's no good.
> 
> Baldman Games runs D&D at PAX, GenCon, Origins for WotC. They also run WinterFantasy. I think they are a WotC partner or if not might as well be.


----------



## UngainlyTitan

UVAtom said:


> I have a question for the stock market gurus on this board. It would seem to me, that if all of our uproar about the OGL is to have any real impact, it would need to affect the stock price. Which is doesn't appear to be doing (to my amateur eyes). Can someone elaborate?



It is not yet apparent that WoTC will suffer financially from this. No one is going to sell stocks based on a kerfuffle in the fan base. Now if WoTC financials show a big hit that might change something.


----------



## Whizbang Dustyboots

One of the Kickstarter campaigns I backed, Wolves of Langdon, is gently pumping the brakes on fulfillment so they can be compatible with the new OGL.


----------



## GMforPowergamers

UVAtom said:


> I have a question for the stock market gurus on this board. It would seem to me, that if all of our uproar about the OGL is to have any real impact, it would need to affect the stock price. Which is doesn't appear to be doing (to my amateur eyes). Can someone elaborate?



Funny thing I invested in HASBRO years ago and forgot... so I just checked it is down over all for the last year, but did resently have both up and down turns. Today it is up from yesterday by a smidge over 1%... over all it is worth more then when I bought it, but it was worth WAY more inbetween then and now if I was smart and had 'sold high'
and no my stocks are not even a blip on the radar... I bought them on a lark. 

If anyone care overall between my stocks bonds 401k and IRAs my retirement plan appears to be die at work...


----------



## GMforPowergamers

UngainlyTitan said:


> It is not yet apparent that WoTC will suffer financially from this. No one is going to sell stocks based on a kerfuffle in the fan base. Now if WoTC financials show a big hit that might change something.



and my bet is even WORST case 1D&D will sell big next year for the 50th. Even if it doesn't sustain it will make WotC look like a winner for a bit.


----------



## Weiley31

Well: I'm glad that I have gotten a number of Kobold Press books that I wanted for 5E as well as other 3PP kickstarter products. I'm wondering how Privateer Press will react now as well since they are close to entering the fulfillment stages for _The Nightmare Kingdoms._ And I really liked getting the Iron Kingdom 5E books. Now I'm not sure if they'll go through with the next kickstarter they were planning for the IP. Who knows.

I also wonder what will happen to the current 5E SRD.


----------



## Desdichado

UVAtom said:


> I have a question for the stock market gurus on this board. It would seem to me, that if all of our uproar about the OGL is to have any real impact, it would need to affect the stock price. Which is doesn't appear to be doing (to my amateur eyes). Can someone elaborate?



Well, that's an interesting line of inquiry. Although a lot of people talk about how much money WotC made last year, the reality is that was a year ago, and the outlook has not been nearly as rosy the last 12 months or so. Professor Dungeon Master has made a bunch of videos in the last couple of months suggesting that Hasrbo and WotC are facing some pretty choppy financial waters. I suspect, that if true, that's a significant player in why WotC is doing what it's doing.

EDIT: Here's a couple of recent ones:


----------



## Plageman

UngainlyTitan said:


> It is not yet apparent that WoTC will suffer financially from this. No one is going to sell stocks based on a kerfuffle in the fan base. Now if WoTC financials show a big hit that might change something.



Third party publisher with printed products may want to leave the 5e market; it's already happening with Kobold Press and Troll Lord Games. What I'm more curious about is what will happen to the thousand of the PDF-only/PoD products in the DM's Guild.


----------



## SAVeira

Desdichado said:


> Well, that's an interesting line of inquiry. Although a lot of people talk about how much money WotC made last year, the reality is that was a year ago, and the outlook has not been nearly as rosy the last 12 months or so. Professor Dungeon Master has made a bunch of videos in the last couple of months suggesting that Hasrbo and WotC are facing some pretty choppy financial waters. I suspect, that if true, that's a significant player in why WotC is doing what it's doing.



It is also worth realizing that there recently a fight with some Hasbro shareholders feeling that Hasbro was getting the full worth out of D&D.    This could be one reaction to that pressure.


----------



## CapnZapp

Erdric Dragin said:


> At this point, even if the OGL1.0a stays and isn't revoked, the damage is already done by just looking at what the fear of it alone ha caused all these companies to do.
> 
> Either way, this leak ruined the entire community.



No, the leak didn't ruin anything. WoTC's decision making is what's ruining things.


----------



## SkidAce

Reynard said:


> So a return to a time when D&D was completely dominant but there was only one voice in that D&D space? That doesn't sound better.



Dominant?  Maybe.  

Only?  nah, Rifts, Champions, Torg, Runequest, Rolemaster, etc etc.


----------



## Reynard

SkidAce said:


> Dominant?  Maybe.
> 
> Only?  nah, Rifts, Champions, Torg, Runequest, Rolemaster, etc etc.



"Only one voice in that D&D space."

I meant that it is better that if D&D is dominant, there should be more voiced defining D&D.


----------



## Jimmy Dick

CapnZapp said:


> There are no 'big' companies in this business (except Hasbro itself)



Depends on how you define big.


----------



## CapnZapp

Jimmy Dick said:


> Depends on how you define big.



Define it however you want, my claim stands: noone is going to be interested in challenging Hasbro in court.


----------



## CapnZapp

UngainlyTitan said:


> It is not yet apparent that WoTC will suffer financially from this. No one is going to sell stocks based on a kerfuffle in the fan base. Now if WoTC financials show a big hit that might change something.



Are you going to purchase D&D One after this monumental PR disaster?

Are you going to watch Hasbros movies and tv shows? Their D&D toys and board games?

Maybe you are, but if the point was to garner goodwill, broaden their user base and attract new customers, they have done _literally the polar opposite_ by setting fire to the D&D content people love: EN Publishing, Critical Role, Pathfinder, OSR, and probably a hundred others...


----------



## Jimmy Dick

CapnZapp said:


> Define it however you want, my claim stands: noone is going to be interested in challenging Hasbro in cou



I disagree. There are enough parties who could band together and pool their resources to fight this. Not to mention legal experts willing to donate their time. Hasbro may be big, but there are several companies who make millions in this industry and they do have the weight to fight back. 

But rather than waste time, they could just move away from D&D mechanics entirely. 5e really is not that good of a game and only coasts on its reputation which right now is being ripped to shreds by its own owners. People are looking elsewhere and this is going to cost Hasbro a lot of money in lost revenue.


----------



## SkidAce

Incenjucar said:


> I expect that at least some companies will provide conversion rules for their work. Concepts like skeleton dragons with ghostly breath weapons or whatever can easily exist in dozens of systems with enough tweaking, so selling a book of monsters for "Pits and Perils" or "Recesses and Rascals" and then making a conversion chart freely available lets you keep your profit without forcing hard decisions on the players and GMs.



WotC did that with their Primal Order series in the early 90s(?).  It had conversion notes for many for the current systems.

I think they got sued by a couple of them.


----------



## CapnZapp

Jimmy Dick said:


> But rather than waste time, they could just move away from D&D mechanics entirely.



Thank you for arguing my point for me


----------



## Vaalingrade

The sad part is, fighting them in court is fighting them for the right to feed them.


----------



## dbolack

SkidAce said:


> WotC did that with their Primal Order series in the early 90s(?).  It had conversion notes for many for the current systems.
> 
> I think they got sued by a couple of them.




Correct. By Palladium. It's why Magic got shuffled off to a different entity for a spell.  They also used a system agnostic stats system in their gaming magazine.


----------



## Incenjucar

SkidAce said:


> WotC did that with their Primal Order series in the early 90s(?).  It had conversion notes for many for the current systems.
> 
> I think they got sued by a couple of them.



I see Palladium did so, and they later excluded D&D and Warp World.


----------



## Clint_L

CapnZapp said:


> Define it however you want, my claim stands: noone is going to be interested in challenging Hasbro in court.



Maaaaybe. Critical Role fans raised millions to get a cartoon made. And Critical Role is a pretty powerful and growing business in the RPG world, with ties to Amazon. What if Matt Mercer decides to fight this thing? What if the Critters are unleashed on it?

You think Critical Role wants to let Hasbro take their IP? And does Hasbro really want to burn those bridges?


----------



## Desdichado

Since 2019, Hasbro has lost 45% of their stock value, and they were just downgraded a month or two ago by Bank of America to Sell. Ray Winninger was either pushed out the window, or jumped, right in the middle of the OneD&D launch, after appearing in the trailer looking pretty excited about the future. (EDIT: By which I mean he left the company. That's a metaphor.)

I think there's more to this than what most people are looking at. I think Hasbro is not doing well, and they see more troubled waters on the horizon, so they're trying to gather their resources for the downturn that they anticipate (and which has already started.)

Granted, as most people here have noted, this hardly seems to have been a winning move for them, as they've poisoned much of their goodwill with hard-hitting fans who spend time on the internet talking about D&D (who knows if casual players have any idea whatsoever that any of this is even happening.) But this comes across as a semi-desperate move to stop the bleeding.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

CapnZapp said:


> Do you have a couple of million dollars you're willing to bet on being right here?
> 
> No, didn't think so.



*Mod Note:*

Noooot really helpful.


----------



## Jimmy Dick

CapnZapp said:


> Thank you for arguing my point for me



Not a problem. I like pointing out how Hasbro is cutting their throats with this stupid decision and that it will cost them far more than they stand to make by continuing the status quo.


----------



## Sabathius42

Ulfgeir said:


> WoD had at one time yes, Shadowrun nope. It might have hang around for a long time, but it never had a big marketshare. Fans that love the setting, yes. But that is a different thing, and it never made much impact on the rpg scene afaik.



It was big enough to spawn two different studios to make a videogame on the SNES/Genesis and a bunch of novels.

 Shadowrun wasnt obscure.


----------



## Scribe

Erdric Dragin said:


> At this point, even if the OGL1.0a stays and isn't revoked, the damage is already done by just looking at what the fear of it alone ha caused all these companies to do.
> 
> Either way, this leak ruined the entire community.



No, Wizards did. Not the leak.

The executive level at Wizards and Hasbro, are 100% the issue.

Anyone heard from Crawford  and Perkins??


----------



## kenada

Plageman said:


> What I'm more curious about is what will happen to the thousand of the PDF-only/PoD products in the DM's Guild.



DM’s Guild doesn’t use or allow the OGL. The terms are arguably worse (higher cut, can’t sell elsewhere, all content published is shared), but you are at least allowed to use D&D’s settings for your product.


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

*Mod Note:*

Everyone:  I’m seeing a lot of needlessly snarky, pointed comments being thrown around in a thread that is already inherently highly charged due to the subject matter.

PLEASE, if you want to keep posting in this thread, think about your tone and your targeting before posting again.


----------



## billd91

Clint_L said:


> Maaaaybe. Critical Role fans raised millions to get a cartoon made. And Critical Role is a pretty powerful and growing business in the RPG world, with ties to Amazon. What if Matt Mercer decides to fight this thing? What if the Critters are unleashed on it?
> 
> You think Critical Role wants to let Hasbro take their IP? And does Hasbro really want to burn those bridges?



Critical Role in the position of having a *LOT* to lose if a lawsuit doesn't go their way. And considering OGL 1.1 won't work for them, they're forced into making a hasty decision to enter into a special license with WotC. I'd bet that's a significant factor in WotC choosing this particular method of releasing an updated license. Bully the big players into individual licensing arrangements with less onerous terms than OGL1.1.


----------



## Reynard

billd91 said:


> Critical Role in the position of having a *LOT* to lose if a lawsuit doesn't go their way. And considering OGL 1.1 won't work for them, they're forced into making a hasty decision to enter into a special license with WotC. I'd bet that's a significant factor in WotC choosing this particular method of releasing an updated license. Bully the big players into individual licensing arrangements with less onerous terms than OGL1.1.



It apparently failed with Kobold, which has to be one of the bigger players. I wonder if that is causing some rethinking on the upper floors...


----------



## Cadence

Desdichado said:


> Since 2019, Hasbro has lost 45% of their stock value,




They certainly aren't doing great, but the 45% fall since 2019 seems a bit cherry-picking.  They are, for example, up 40% since March 20, 2020...  (Alphabet, for example, is down 40%, for example, from just late last year, but well up since 2019)


----------



## Desdichado

Dannyalcatraz said:


> *Mod Note:*
> 
> Noooot really helpful.



Y'know, what? Nevermind. :grumpy:


----------



## Desdichado

Cadence said:


> They certainly aren't doing great, but the 45% fall since 2019 seems a bit cherry-picking.  They are, for example, up 40% since March 20, 2020...  (Alphabet, for example, is down 40%, for example, from just late last year, but well up since 2019)



The downgrade to sell by Bank of America is still valid regardless of the stock prices. I agree that analyzing stock prices can be difficult, because you can select comparison dates that appear to tell a very different story. But their long term reports on, say, Yahoo! Finance also show them making quite the nosedive, and the label associated with them is Bearish.

Here's the 5Y chart:


----------



## CapnZapp

Desdichado said:


> text



Thanks but I wouldn't talk back to a mod if I were you.


----------



## Transformer

Whizbang Dustyboots said:


> One of the Kickstarter campaigns I backed, Wolves of Langdon, is gently pumping the brakes on fulfillment so they can be compatible with the new OGL.




Interesting



> We also want to address the Open Gaming Licence 1.1 (OGL 1.1). If you haven't heard anything about this yet, then we envy you. But given we are creating a solo adventure based on the game mechanics of Dungeons and Dragons: 5th Edition under the former Open Gaming License (OGL 1.0a), we want to be certain we're staying on the right side of Wizards of the Coast's upcoming changes to its licensing.
> 
> No matter what, we will still be releasing the solo adventure you backed, the full-party modules, and all the supplemental materials included in the stretch goals. We are just making sure we do so correctly, and part of that is waiting until the OGL is finalized and released. (Indeed, it's just a leak and not necessarily the final version.)




This doesn't exactly say they're accepting the OGL 1.1, but it seems to imply it. If so, this is the first publisher I have personally seen that is actually accepting 1.1. That would be unfortunate; naturally, I would prefer that not a single publisher accept 1.1 or take a bespoke sweetheart deal in its stead.

So far, the only concrete response I've seen from publishers is from those who are dropping the OGL entirely. I have yet to see anyone signal acceptance of 1.1, or state that they are continuing on with 1.0(a) (and potentially inviting a lawsuit), or accept a bespoke deal with WotC (this last option is presumably still covered by an NDA, if any publishers have in fact taken the bait).


----------



## Umbran

Desdichado said:


> Is it helpful to say to just sue them then? Trying to determine what you think is a helpful suggestion and what you think isn't, since it isn't clear to me at all based on this, since the one you're responding to seems considerably more practical  and helpful than the one that HE'S responding to.




*Mod Note:*
If you have a question or issue with moderation, take it to PM, please. We should not clutter the thread with this.


----------



## J.Quondam

billd91 said:


> Critical Role in the position of having a *LOT* to lose if a lawsuit doesn't go their way. And considering OGL 1.1 won't work for them, they're forced into making a hasty decision to enter into a special license with WotC. I'd bet that's a significant factor in WotC choosing this particular method of releasing an updated license. Bully the big players into individual licensing arrangements with less onerous terms than OGL1.1.



I'd think that of all the bigger players, CR is probably the most insulated from this. They're really a "lifestyle brand" unto themselves, aren't they? Seems like they could fairly easily shove off from D&D to spin off their own thing, since so much of what they are derives from the characters and setting and stories, not the specifics of he game. And if they chose to really make a stink about this, there would be millions of Critters - gamers and not - who'd be happy to amplify that hullaballoo.
I'm not super familiar with the WotC/CR relationship so maybe I'm missing something obvious, but it seems to me that WotC needs CR more than CR needs WotC.


----------



## mangamuscle

I am not a lawyer (maybe only a rules-lawyer) but from what I remember Kenzer & Co. won a lawsuit against WotC, so IMO it is not hard to believe WotC will lose this one also.


----------



## dragoner

I have three books ogl, sort of a bummer as I put the finishing touches on one to go to the printer, nevertheless, I have had some plans, so likely going forward I'll have a bespoke system.


----------



## UngainlyTitan

Plageman said:


> Third party publisher with printed products may want to leave the 5e market; it's already happening with Kobold Press and Troll Lord Games. What I'm more curious about is what will happen to the thousand of the PDF-only/PoD products in the DM's Guild.



They are under a separate licence.


----------



## Umbran

eyeheartawk said:


> Report away.
> 
> I'm not the one who employed and defended known Nazi and grooming enthusiast Milo Yiannopoulos. But you do you.




*Mod Note:*
Interestingly, we were going to let the report slide.  Then you came back with some really nasty personal accusations, which was a really bad move on your part.  

This kind of rhetoric devolves quickly, so by using it, you've earned ejection from the thread.

Stop upping the ante, folks.


----------



## Desdichado

Rhetoric is kind of a devolved version of communication to begin with, but sadly, the majority of people are not fluent in dialectic.  In any case, back to the topic, the more I dig into the financials of Hasbro and their status with the investment community, the more I'm getting a completely different take on what's happening and why. Not that it's making me sympathetic to them, by any means, but at least it seems less randomly arbitrary and mean-spirited. I think Hasbro is kind of in trouble, and the new management is under the gun to show some results.


----------



## Grendel_Khan

Just realized how awful the timing of this is for Zinequest...


----------



## Rabulias

mangamuscle said:


> I am not a lawyer (maybe only a rules-lawyer) but from what I remember Kenzer & Co. won a lawsuit against WotC, so IMO it is not hard to believe WotC will lose this one also.



That case was a very different matter. As I recall, it was that WotC had included Kenzer's _Knights of the Dinner Table _strips that were in _Dragon _magazine in the _Dragon Magazine CD-ROM _product without getting permission from Kenzer to do so.


----------



## Alzrius

mangamuscle said:


> I am not a lawyer (maybe only a rules-lawyer) but from what I remember Kenzer & Co. won a lawsuit against WotC, so IMO it is not hard to believe WotC will lose this one also.



Strictly speaking, that ended in a settlement (albeit one that, from the outside, looks like it was highly favorable to Kenzer & Co.).


----------



## Gammadoodler

J.Quondam said:


> I'd think that of all the bigger players, CR is probably the most insulated from this. They're really a "lifestyle brand" unto themselves, aren't they? Seems like they could fairly easily shove off from D&D to spin off their own thing, since so much of what they are derives from the characters and setting and stories, not the specifics of he game. And if they chose to really make a stink about this, there would be millions of Critters - gamers and not - who'd be happy to amplify that hullaballoo.
> I'm not super familiar with the WotC/CR relationship so maybe I'm missing something obvious, but it seems to me that WotC needs CR more than CR needs WotC.



They are, currently, one of D&D's primary advertising partners, likely the largest/most impactful.

They are also, as individuals, broadly trusted and admired within the community.

Losing Critical Role as partners and/or having them move over to a competing game system would be a disaster for D&D, the WoTC-branded game.

That said, if the D&D movie is great and does really well, maybe Hasbro/WotC doesn't care about the game?


----------



## Gammadoodler

One of the things I'm most amazed by here is the dramatic shift in WotC's perception from: 


Basically benevolent if sometimes lazy/sloppy/whatever game designer pals to,
Ruthless malevolent corporate overlords
For a game that runs 90% on trust, where barriers to entry are significant, it's crazy to me that they'd be willing to so thoroughly poison their image.


----------



## Myrdin Potter

Desdichado said:


> Rhetoric is kind of a devolved version of communication to begin with, but sadly, the majority of people are not fluent in dialectic.  In any case, back to the topic, the more I dig into the financials of Hasbro and their status with the investment community, the more I'm getting a completely different take on what's happening and why. Not that it's making me sympathetic to them, by any means, but at least it seems less randomly arbitrary and mean-spirited. I think Hasbro is kind of in trouble, and the new management is under the gun to show some results.



Not so sure about that conclusion. The market itself has struggled and many stocks are suffering. I am not sure if the percentage change is a sign of deep troubles and if a 5 year timeline is best.

Now, they changed CEO to Cocks fairly recently due to their old CEO dying. Cocks lead WoTC to alltime highs of revenue and profitability. Immediately after he became CEO, he had a proxy fight over the direction of the company (basically the company was accused of taking MTG profits and wasting them). Cynthia Williams was fairly recently brought in to replace him as the head of WoTC.

The previous CEO's strategy was to bet heavier on movies and entertainment and now Cocks wants to sell one of the recent aquisitions made in that vein. Streaming in general has been suffering in the market.


----------



## UngainlyTitan

Good Questions


CapnZapp said:


> Are you going to purchase D&D One after this monumental PR disaster?



I really love 5e and like the proposed changes for One so I do not know.



CapnZapp said:


> Are you going to watch Hasbros movies and tv shows? Their D&D toys and board games?



Again torn, I was looking forward to the movie, have no current opinion on the TV show. I would not watch either the movie or show if I did not think they were worth it. I do not watch stuff because it is specific stuff, same for the boardgames and I not a consumer of branded merch. I make the odd exception for the odd YouTuber I like and have no other way to support.


CapnZapp said:


> Maybe you are, but if the point was to garner goodwill, broaden their user base and attract new customers, they have done _literally the polar opposite_ by setting fire to the D&D content people love: EN Publishing, Critical Role, Pathfinder, OSR, and probably a hundred others...



Totally agree.


----------



## p_johnston

Desdichado said:


> Since 2019, Hasbro has lost 45% of their stock value, and they were just downgraded a month or two ago by Bank of America to Sell. Ray Winninger was either pushed out the window, or jumped, right in the middle of the OneD&D launch, after appearing in the trailer looking pretty excited about the future. (EDIT: By which I mean he left the company. That's a metaphor.)
> 
> I think there's more to this than what most people are looking at. I think Hasbro is not doing well, and they see more troubled waters on the horizon, so they're trying to gather their resources for the downturn that they anticipate (and which has already started.)
> 
> Granted, as most people here have noted, this hardly seems to have been a winning move for them, as they've poisoned much of their goodwill with hard-hitting fans who spend time on the internet talking about D&D (who knows if casual players have any idea whatsoever that any of this is even happening.) But this comes across as a semi-desperate move to stop the bleeding.



I will chip in to say that their lowering stock prices is pretty much Hasbro's own fault. for about.... 6? years or so they've repeatedly made decisions with MTG that have focused on making short term profits over the long term health of the hobby, and I've been waiting for it to bite them in the ass. Now their solution to "We messed up the long term sustainability of our cash cow" is to try and shoot the long term sustainability of another product for a quick buck WHICH IS EXACTLY WHY THEIR IN THIS POSITION TO BEGIN WITH!
Hasbro has annoyed me for a long time. This is just the largest and most recent example.


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## Glade Riven

I haven't seen any Paizo news either, but my *speculation *based on how they designed Pathfinder 2nd Edition and Starfinder: Pathfinder 2 stripped quite a bit if not all of the copyrightable elements of the d20 SRD in their core rule book, up to and including how the book was organized. Paizo could likely errata out what little might remain and ditch Wizard's OGL completely while maintaining their own OGL. Starfinder might need slightly more work, but again, is structurally quite different from the d20 SRD. The harder part is going through all the splat material where something may have snuck back in from the d20 SRD.


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## Glade Riven

Hasbro also has problems that they have licenses to make toys for Disney but Disney isn't making properties that are able to sell toys right now (exception: Spiderman, mostly thanks to Sony).


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## mangamuscle

Rabulias said:


> That case was a very different matter. As I recall, it was that WotC had included Kenzer's _Knights of the Dinner Table _strips that were in _Dragon _magazine in the _Dragon Magazine CD-ROM _product without getting permission from Kenzer to do so.



That is not the point I am arguing about, but the "WotC is so big and 3pp is so small that you CAN'T litigate against them if your end goal is to win" mantra I feel from some posts here.


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## billd91

J.Quondam said:


> I'd think that of all the bigger players, CR is probably the most insulated from this. They're really a "lifestyle brand" unto themselves, aren't they? Seems like they could fairly easily shove off from D&D to spin off their own thing, since so much of what they are derives from the characters and setting and stories, not the specifics of he game. And if they chose to really make a stink about this, there would be millions of Critters - gamers and not - who'd be happy to amplify that hullaballoo.
> I'm not super familiar with the WotC/CR relationship so maybe I'm missing something obvious, but it seems to me that WotC needs CR more than CR needs WotC.



It may be that WotC needs CR more than CR needs WotC, but I'd be concerned that a lot of CR's IP, like their characters, might be vulnerable to WotC claims on them as derivative IP.


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## Glade Riven

billd91 said:


> It may be that WotC needs CR more than CR needs WotC, but I'd be concerned that a lot of CR's IP, like their characters, might be vulnerable to WotC claims on them as derivative IP.



That's not a road WotC wants to go down. DnD is 98% derivative IP with the serial numbers barely filed off.


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