# Converting prehistoric creatures



## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Part Three.

Original Thread here.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2010)

Did we determine the following was too similar to the dire hippo in Sandstorm?  Or is it worth a quick conversion?

*Hippopotamus, giant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical lakes and rivers
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Family group
DIET: Herbivore
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 6; SW 12
HIT DICE: 10 +5
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 5-20 or 4-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Surprise
SIZE: L (12. long)
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: 2,000 (males), 1,400 (females)

This massive animal is the direct ancestor of the behemoth (AD&D 1st Edition Monster Manual II) but has two differences, detailed below.

Combat: First, the giant hippo has smaller tusks than the behemoth, doing only 5-20 hp damage (4-16 for females). Second, the giant hippo has eyes that stick up above the skull like periscopes. Thus, it can hide its entire body below the water, with only its eyes above the surface. This gives it a -2 modifier to surprise rolls against swimmers and boats.

Habitat/Society: When a group is encountered, it will typically be one male (bull) and 1-3 females (cows). Only the young are subject to attack, and only by the largest predators.

Originally appeared in Dragon #167 (1991).


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Well the _Sandstorm_ version has a lot more HD so I guess we could do one. Something between a Dire Hippo and a regular one.

Not terribly interesting though, a _Sandstorm_ Hippopotamus with a few HD advancement would do in a pinch.

I'll leave it to you.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Further on the Giant Hippo, it says it's an ancestor of the Behemoth.

The Creature Catalog 3.0 version of the *Behemoth* is mighty close to what I'd imagine our Giant Hippopotamus conversion will end out like.

How about we just update the Behemoth to 3.5 and say it's also known as Giant Hippopotamus, and make the _Sandstorm_ Dire Hippopotamus the "real" Behemoth?


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2010)

Cleon said:


> How about we just update the Behemoth to 3.5 and say it's also known as Giant Hippopotamus, and make the _Sandstorm_ Dire Hippopotamus the "real" Behemoth?




Yeah, that makes good sense.


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## Cleon (Sep 21, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, that makes good sense.




Okay then!

So, do we want to give them anything more than the usual 3.5 updates to feats, skills and so forth.

Hold Breath?

Augmented Critical with the bite?

A +10 bonus to Hide when submerged, like the SRD crocodile? That would fit with the Surprise of the _Dragon 167_ Giant Hippopotamus.


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## freyar (Sep 22, 2010)

All those suggestions sound pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Feats: 4
Hippo has Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Power Attack
Dire hippo has those plus Alertness, Die Hard, Endurance, Improved Critical (bite),


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## Cleon (Sep 22, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Feats: 4
> Hippo has Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, Power Attack
> Dire hippo has those plus Alertness, Die Hard, Endurance, Improved Critical (bite),




I'd give them the Hippopotamus's feats plus Alertness.

Sadly, they don't have the BAB for Improved Critical (bite).

The size limit and DC for their Overturn SQ seems very low. I'd have thought they'd be able to overturn boats at least their own size & weight. At +1 DC per 100 lb and Str 34 they couldn't flip a boat weighing more than 1200 lbs, but its maximum carrying load is 16,800 pounds.

How about:

*Overturn (Ex):* Behemoths can overturn small watercraft on a  Strength check, the DC depends on the total weight of  the craft and contents: DC20 if the weight it a light load for the behemoth (up to 5,600 pounds for a typical behemoth); DC 25 for a medium load (up to 11,200 pounds); and DC 30 for a heavy load (up to 16,800 pounds). If the check succeeds, the boat overturns,  spilling its passengers and contents into the water.


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## Shade (Sep 22, 2010)

It's got augmented critical, so it's still better off.  

That all sounds good.  Updated.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2010)

CR 8 or maybe 9?  It's about as good as a triceratops except for hp.  And it's probably better than a T-rex except for hp, too.  How the tyrannosaurus ended up worse than a triceratops is beyond me...

Once we agree on CR and Cleon provides us a weight range , I'd say it's done.


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

I think it's a solid CR 9.  That damage output is fierce.

For weight calculations, note...

A typical dire hippo is over 20 feet long and weighs between four and six tons.


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## Cleon (Sep 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> I think it's a solid CR 9.  That damage output is fierce.




I'd make them CR8. A triceratops has trample, 6 more HD, ~50%more hp and does more damage with a powerful charge (4d8+20 vs 2d8+18 is 11 points more on average).

The giant hippo is also slower than a human on land, but that probably doesn't make much difference.



Shade said:


> For weight calculations, note...
> 
> A typical dire hippo is over 20 feet long and weighs between four and six tons.




Let's see, I've got a table of animal sizes somewhere...

A cow hippo is 1300-2500 kg and 280-370 cm, a bull hippo 1600-3200 kg and 330-400 cm. Those length exclude the tail. That's a range of 2863-7000 lbs and 9'2" to 13'1".

The behemoth (giant hippopotamus) is 12 feet or more, which is near the top of that range, so how about:

"A typical behemoth is 12 feet long and weighs 3 tons, but these animals can grow considerably larger than that."


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Sep 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Looks fine to me.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2010)

Yup.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2010)

Wanna do anything with this?

*Eucladoceros*
This giant forest deer is equal to the giant stag in the MC4 Monstrous Compendium, DRAGONLANCE® Appendix. However, Eucladoceros has a huge antler array with numerous tines; its antler damage is 3-18 hp damage.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).

Eucladoceros - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 1, 2010)

I'm reading USA Today and they have an article about Inkayacu, a giant prehistoric penguin, one of the largest species to exist.  Does that sound like something we could stat up?


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I'm reading USA Today and they have an article about Inkayacu, a giant prehistoric penguin, one of the largest species to exist.  Does that sound like something we could stat up?




Sure!


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## Cleon (Oct 3, 2010)

Shade said:


> Wanna do anything with this?
> 
> *Eucladoceros*
> This giant forest deer is equal to the giant stag in the MC4 Monstrous  Compendium, DRAGONLANCE® Appendix. However, Eucladoceros has a huge  antler array with numerous tines; its antler damage is 3-18 hp damage.
> ...






GrayLinnorm said:


> I'm reading USA Today and they have an article about Inkayacu, a giant prehistoric penguin, one of the largest species to exist.  Does that sound like something we could stat up?




Why not do both, they don't look like they'd take long.


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2010)

Let's tackle Eucladoceros first.

Fit it between an elk and a moose?

*Elk*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
Attack: Hoof +4 melee (1d4+2)
Full Attack: 2 hooves +4 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +3, Listen +5, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Cold forests, hills, and mountains
Organization: Solitary or herd (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

*Moose*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 11 (-1 size, -2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
Attack: Gore +4 melee (1d8+2)
Full Attack: Gore +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 7, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 8, Cha 5
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2
Feats: Endurance, Power Attack
Environment: Cold forests and cold plains
Organization: ?
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2010)

Because it's lonely in here...

*Eucladoceros*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+8
Attack: Hoof +4 melee (1d8+2/18-20/x3)
Full Attack: 2 hooves +4 melee (1d8+2/18-20/x3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical
Special Qualities: Dire, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +3, Listen +5, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Cold forests, hills, and mountains
Organization: Solitary or herd (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 2?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

_The oversized antler array of this large deer is comblike, with numerous tines._

The eucladoceros, or "bush-antlered deer",  sports up to a dozen tines per pedicle in its bushlike antler array.

An eucladoceros is 8 feet long, stands almost 6 feet tall at the shoulder, and sports a rack of antlers 5-1/2 feet wide.  It weighs x pounds.

Combat

Tactics.

Augmented Critical (Ex): An eucladoceros' gore attack threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.

Dire (Ex): An eucladoceros is considered to be a dire animal for the purposes of determining saving throws.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).



I modeled it off the elk, since it fit much better with the horses and camel of the MM than the moose statistics from Dragon.


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

Shade said:


> Because it's lonely in here...
> 
> *Eucladoceros*
> Large Animal
> ...




The Eucladoceros we're converting has the stats of the MC4 giant stag except its antlers that do 3d6 damage. The above doesn't fit that description very well!


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## Cleon (Oct 7, 2010)

Here's the MC4 Giant Stag:
*
Giant Stag*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate/Forest, plain, hill, and mountain
Frequency: Rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Day
Diet: Herbivore
Intelligence: Animal (1)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Nil
No. Appearing: 1-2
Armor Class: 7
Movement: 21
Hit Dice: 5
THAC0: 15
No. of Attacks: 1 or 2
Damage/Attack: 1-4/1-4 or 4-16
Special Attacks: Nil
Special Defenses: Nil
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: L (7’ + tall, excluding antlers)
Morale: Unsteady (7)
XP Value:175

*Giant Stags*
Giant stags are larger versions of wild stags, often topping seven feet in height and weighing in excess of 1,500 pounds. A giant stags antler attack inflicts 4d4 points of damage, while his fore hooves inflict 1d4 points of damage each Otherwise, the giant stag conforms to the general characteristics of the wild stag.

_Originally appeared in MC4 - Monstrous Compendium Dragonlance Appendix (1990)._


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2010)

Cleon said:


> The Eucladoceros we're converting has the stats of the MC4 giant stag except its antlers that do 3d6 damage. The above doesn't fit that description very well!




I was following the description in the Wikipedia entry of the real creature, which doesn't sound very "giant".

Feel free to offer suggested changes, though.


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## Cleon (Oct 9, 2010)

Shade said:


> I was following the description in the Wikipedia entry of the real creature, which doesn't sound very "giant".
> 
> Feel free to offer suggested changes, though.




We could do a "Dire Stag" with 5HD and a hefty gore attack.


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## freyar (Oct 10, 2010)

Odd that Shade's version has augmented crit for gore but no gore attack. 

Why not boost Shade's version to 5HD and add a 3d6 gore?  Maybe reduce the hooves, too.  Anyway, then we can argue about the height later.


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## Cleon (Oct 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> Odd that Shade's version has augmented crit for gore but no gore attack.
> 
> Why not boost Shade's version to 5HD and add a 3d6 gore?  Maybe reduce the hooves, too.  Anyway, then we can argue about the height later.




Fine by me, except I'd make the "gore" a "horns".

I'd consider dropping the augmented critical altogether and just giving it the impressive base damage. A dire version ought to have a better Strength and Constitution too.

It also needs a +4 racial bonus to Hide to explain the modifier.

That would give something like the following:

*Dire Eucladoceros*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (32 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Horns +8 melee (3d6+6/18-20x3?)
Full Attack: Horns +8 melee (3d6+6/18-20x3?) and 2 hooves +3 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: --- Augmented critical?
Special Qualities: Dire, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +5, Listen +5, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Cold forests, hills, and mountains
Organization: Solitary or herd (3-12)
Challenge Rating: 3?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

_The oversized antler array of this large deer is comblike, with numerous tines._

The eucladoceros, or "bush-antlered deer",  sports up to a dozen tines per pedicle in its bushlike antler array.

A dire eucladoceros is over 10 feet long, stands at least 7 feet tall at the  shoulder, and sports a rack of antlers 6 feet wide.  It weighs x  pounds.

Combat

Tactics.

Augmented Critical (Ex): A dire eucladoceros' horns attack threatens a  critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on  a successful critical hit.

Dire (Ex): A dire eucladoceros is considered to be a dire animal for the purposes of determining saving throws.

Skills: Dire eucladoceros have a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## freyar (Oct 13, 2010)

How about reducing the Str to 18 and keeping augmented crit?  I agree that the damage would get a bit high as it stands, but augmented crit really feels right for these.  Or instead they could cause the wound to bleed for a certain number of rounds.


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## Cleon (Oct 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> How about reducing the Str to 18 and keeping augmented crit?  I agree that the damage would get a bit high as it stands, but augmented crit really feels right for these.  Or instead they could cause the wound to bleed for a certain number of rounds.




If a giant stag's 7 feet tall at the shoulder, that's several feet taller than a typical horse so I think we should keep the Strength higher.

As for augmented critical, it doesn't make much sense to me - antlers aren't designed for killing, and these deer's antlers have dozens of points which should make them less likely to inflict a deep and hence potentially fatal injury than a few long points would (since the pressure will be spread out). As for bleeding, they're certainly no more likely to pierce blood vessels than a big cat's fangs (and I'd think would be less likely). If tiger and lion fangs don't cause bleeding wounds, why should these antlers?

Besides, I think these conversions have overused Augmented Critical. (Plus I feel that triple damage and an 18-20 threat range is way too high for most realistic animals' natural weapons).


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2010)

I don't mind dropping augmented critical.  It was just an attempt to make 'em different.

Why use "horns" rather than "gore"?!?!   The latter is a game term with common usage and is easily relatable to damage type for DMs?  It drives me a bit nuts when creatures vary from the standard attack routines without explanation.


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## Cleon (Oct 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> I don't mind dropping augmented critical.  It was just an attempt to make 'em different.
> 
> Why use "horns" rather than "gore"?!?!   The latter is a game term with common usage and is easily relatable to damage type for DMs?  It drives me a bit nuts when creatures vary from the standard attack routines without explanation.




Feel free to change it to gore if it will help avert nuttiness.

I just prefer the specificity of "horns" to "gore", it makes it clear what the animal is actually using to do the damage.

Although taxonomically speaking I should have used "antlers".


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's drop the "dire" from the name, and maybe allow a bit of Advancement.

CR 3 seems apt, especially without augmented critical.

That just leaves weight and tactics, methinks.


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## Cleon (Oct 20, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Let's drop the "dire" from the name, and maybe allow a bit of Advancement.




I'd rather keep the dire, since the 5HD version is larger and tougher than a _Eucladoceros_ actually was, being about 7 feet at the shoulder and 10 feet long instead of 5 1/2 to 6 feet tall and about 8 feet long like a real _Eucladoceros_.



Shade said:


> CR 3 seems apt, especially without augmented critical.
> 
> That just leaves weight and tactics, methinks.




At 7 feet tall they're the size of a big elk, so they ought to weigh the same: 1000 to 1400 pounds. Say about 1200 pounds on average?

A dire _Eucladoceros_ prefers to flee threats, but will fight fiercely when backed into a corner or if its young or mate is threatened. _Eucladoceros_ often charge opponents with their antlers.

Oh, and I notice it's got "Eucladoceri" in the skills description.

The plural of _Eucladoceros _should be either _Eucladoceros_ or Eucladoceroses. Take your pick, but I prefer the former.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2010)

It seems odd to tack a "dire" onto a prehistoric creature name.

How about "Dire Brush-Antlered Deer", then?  We can mention its proper name in the description.

And of course, we'll no longer have need of the "Dire" SQ.


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## Cleon (Oct 23, 2010)

Shade said:


> It seems odd to tack a "dire" onto a prehistoric creature name.
> 
> How about "Dire Brush-Antlered Deer", then?  We can mention its proper name in the description.
> 
> And of course, we'll no longer have need of the "Dire" SQ.




Well since this is based on the Giant Stag we could just call it a "Dire Stag" and use your 3HD version for a "regular" _Eucladoceros_, with a note that there's a dire version of the _Eucladoceros_ that uses Dire Stag stats.

Hmm, but if we call it a Dire Stag does that mean we need to do a Dire Hind as well for the female of the species?


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2010)

Yoik, this naming is just getting too complicated!  I'm staying out of this!


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2010)

Updated (and renamed) giant stag and added Eucladoceros based on my earlier conversion, as Cleon suggested.


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## Cleon (Oct 26, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated (and renamed) giant stag and added Eucladoceros based on my earlier conversion, as Cleon suggested.




The _Eucladoceros_ needs a few tweaks.

Were'nt we removing the Dire from it, thus changing the Will save to +2?

It should have "Larger versions of eucladoceros are known to exist, and use the *dire stag* statistics.", not "giant stag".

The skills have a "Dire Stag" which should be a "eucladoceros".

The first paragraph of the Dire Stag could do with some tweaking, how about:

Dire Stags are giant deer, often with a prehistoric appearance. They are often oversized versions of eucladoceros, the "bush-antlered deer", named after the bush-like array of spikes on its enormous antlers.

Also, if its "over 10 feet" and "at least 7 feet" I'd suggest adding an "or more" after the weight, since the 1,200 pounds was based on those dimensions and you're implying it's often bigger.

A dire stag is over 10 feet long, stands at least 7 feet tall at the  shoulder, and sports a rack of antlers 6 feet wide. It weighs 1,200  pounds or more.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2010)

Cleon said:


> Were'nt we removing the Dire from it, thus changing the Will save to +2?




No, I just meant that the "Dire" SQ is redundant with a dire creature.  In other words, if it says "Dire" in its name, it is assumed to have the good Will saves.   The standard eucladoceros, IMHO, should still get the dire trait, but isn't called "Dire Eucladoceros".

I'll fix all the rest.


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## Cleon (Oct 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> No, I just meant that the "Dire" SQ is redundant with a dire creature.  In other words, if it says "Dire" in its name, it is assumed to have the good Will saves.   The standard eucladoceros, IMHO, should still get the dire trait, but isn't called "Dire Eucladoceros".
> 
> I'll fix all the rest.




Okay. I'm not _that_ partial to giving the standard _Eucladoceros_ the dire SQ, but not enough to kick up a fuss about it.

So, I guess that means they're both done.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2010)

Moving on?


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## Cleon (Oct 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Moving on?




Lead on, MacShade!


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2010)

We'd discussed doing this next...



GrayLinnorm said:


> I'm reading USA Today and they have an article about Inkayacu, a giant prehistoric penguin, one of the largest species to exist.  Does that sound like something we could stat up?


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## Cleon (Oct 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> We'd discussed doing this next...




Dire Penguin?

Do we have any stats for regular penguins?


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 31, 2010)

Penguins are in _Frostburn._


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## Cleon (Oct 31, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Penguins are in _Frostburn._




Anyone have the stats handy?


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2010)

*Penguin*
Tiny Animal
Hit Dice: ½d8 (2 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 40 ft.
Armor Class: 12 (+2 size, -1 Dex, +1 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12
Attack: Bite -4 melee* (1d2-4)
Full Attack: Bite -4 melee* (1d2-4)
Space/Reach: 2-½ ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0
Abilities: Str 2, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +6
Feats: Endurance, Weapon FinesseB
Environment: Cold aquatic
Organization: Flock (11-30)
Challenge Rating: 1/6
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Hold Breath (Ex): A penguin can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.

Skills: A penguin has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always can choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Cleon (Nov 3, 2010)

Thanks, I was hoping someone else would spare me having to find the stats and type them out. 

Hang on, what's the point of giving it Weapon Finesse when it has a Dex penalty?

So, increase the size to Medium and give them the Dire quality?

Standard Advancement would give:

*Dire Penguin*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: -3
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 40 ft.
Armor Class: 8 (-3 Dex, +1 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 8
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: Bite -4 melee* (1d4)
Full Attack: Bite -4 melee* (1d4)
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 5, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6

Hmm, I think we'd better keep the Dex the same as the Tiny penguin.

If its Dire we might as well make the bite a normal attack. I toyed with the idea of increasing the Strength to 12-13, but decided that was too much. These things are only a bit bigger than an Emperor penguin, so shouldn't be that strong.

Probably add a drop of NA.

Oh, and penguins are not restricted to cold climates, indeed the Inkayacu we're basing this on is a South American species. The environment should just be "Aquatic".

*Dire Penguin*
 Medium Animal
 Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
 Initiative: -1
 Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 40 ft.
 Armor Class: 11 (-1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 11
 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
 Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d4)
 Full Attack: Bite +1 melee* (1d4)
 Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
 Special Attacks: ---
 Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
 Saves: Fort +4, Ref +0, Will +0
 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 9, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6
 Skills: Listen +2, Spot +3, Swim +8
 Feats: Endurance
 Environment: Aquatic
 Organization: Flock (11-30)
 Challenge Rating: 1/2
 Treasure: None
 Alignment: Always neutral
 Advancement: ---
 Level Adjustment: ---


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 3, 2010)

It looks like they gave the penguin Weapon Finesse because its strength is even worse than its dexterity.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> It looks like they gave the penguin Weapon Finesse because its strength is even worse than its dexterity.




That makes sense...helps offset the penalty.

Plus, WF is common among other avians.


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## Cleon (Nov 4, 2010)

GrayLinnorm said:


> It looks like they gave the penguin Weapon Finesse because its strength is even worse than its dexterity.




Oh right, that makes sense.

Although they'd have been better cutting out that silly "secondary attack" penalty.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2010)

Does our dire penguin friend need anything else?


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## Cleon (Nov 6, 2010)

freyar said:


> Does our dire penguin friend need anything else?




The saves are wrong, not only did I fail to adjust them for the higher Dex they should have all good saves if they're Dire.

I'd also give them Advancement to Large, since most Dire Animals can advance by one size category.

Apart from that I think their statblock is fine, although we still need the rest of the text.

Revising...

*Dire Penguin*
 Medium Animal
 Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
 Initiative: -1
 Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 40 ft.
 Armor Class: 11 (-1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 11
 Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
 Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d4)
 Full Attack: Bite +1 melee (1d4)
 Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
 Special Attacks: ---
 Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
 Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +3
 Abilities: Str 10, Dex 9, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6
 Skills: Listen +2, Spot +3, Swim +8
 Feats: Endurance
 Environment: Aquatic
 Organization: Flock (11-30)
 Challenge Rating: 1/2
 Treasure: None
 Alignment: Always neutral
 Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
 Level Adjustment: ---


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2010)

Looks good!  Let's send this one along to homebrews....


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.

I'm not sure if this will end up in the CC, since it's not a conversion in even the loosest interpretation (penguins didn't appear in D&D until 3e, as far as I can tell).


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## Cleon (Nov 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I'm not sure if this will end up in the CC, since it's not a conversion in even the loosest interpretation (penguins didn't appear in D&D until 3e, as far as I can tell).




That's OK, we'll still have had the satisfaction.

So, do we want the description to actually call it a penguin?

Are we making it black-and-white like a modern penguin or red-and-white or grey-and-white like a Inkayacu probably was, going by its surviving pigments?

I favour the latter:

_A flightless bird as tall as a short human, its __gray body has __a rust-red underside outlined by a white strip. __The bird is built for swimming, __with __webbed feet and short, thick wings; its__ stubby legs look ill-suited for walking__. It has__ a long, sharp beak like a heron's._

This is a penguin of unusual size and pugnacity, such as the prehistoric genus _Inkayacu_. Some species of dire penguin come in the familiar black-and-white of common penguins, but Inkayacu has the gray-and-red coloration described above.

A typical dire penguin is 4 to 5 feet tall and weighs around 80 to 120 pounds.

*Combat*
Dire penguins prefer to swim away from threats, but are not adverse to pecking in self defense or to protect their eggs and hatchlings.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Nov 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




You forgot to cut out the "A dire penguin is over 4-1/2 feet long and weighs x pounds." but apart from that it's done.

I'd also rather _Inkayacu_ was italicized to follow taxonomical conventions.


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## freyar (Nov 15, 2010)

With Cleon's changes, I'd agree that it's done.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2010)

Updated with those chances, and therefore, done.


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated with those chances, and therefore, done.




Looks fine.

What prehistoric beast is next?


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2010)

From the "Creatures that Time Forgot" article...

From earlier in the article...

To simplify the listings, all creatures will conform to the following AD&D statistics unless otherwise noted:
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Shallow sea floor
DIET: Carnivore/Scavenger
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil

All these animals walk or crawl on the bottom of the sea, though some can swim. For game purposes, I’ve assumed that some can come out of the water for short periods of time.

*Yohoia*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1d8
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 2, Sw 4
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 (x2)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Seize gear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Camouflage
SIZE: M (6’ long)
MORALE: Average (8)
XP VALUE: 270

Yohoia is obviously similar to Opabinia, no doubt hunting in the same manner (camouflage and ambush) with the same surprise penalty for AD&D characters. It can swim twice as fast, however, and has two four-fingered “hands” instead of the pincer. When hunting small prey, Yohoia spears its quarry on the fingertips, then folds its arm back to bring the food to its mouth. A group of Yohoia may work together against a common threat, as a hive of bees does.

I am assuming that the finger-spines themselves have some flexibility, enabling Yohoia to grab items too large to be conveniently speared. If it grabs a man-sized character, it may yank off a piece of gear, such as a wand, dagger, pouch, or holstered pistol. PCs trying to keep the thing from making off with their gear should make the same strength rolls as listed above for breaking free from Opabinia’s grasp.  (The Opabinia’s is strong enough to yank a man off his feet and hold him under until he drowns. A trapped AD&D character must roll a strength check on 1d20 to escape.)

NOTE:  The article presented stats for both D&D and a game called "Bug Hunters".  I tried to cut out all references to game mechanics for the latter, but may have missed one here or there.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2010)

Yohoia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here's Demiurge's Opabinia from Dragon #348...

*Opabinia*
Medium Aberration (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +11
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12; Dodge
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. (bite 10 ft.)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, worry 1d6+4
Special Qualities: Extended reach, jagged bite
Senses: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 5
Skills: Hide +6, Move Silently +6, Spot +7, Swim +11
Feats: Dodge, Stealthy
Environment: See below
Organization:: See below
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: See below
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -

Extended Reach (Ex): The mouth of an opabinia sits on a long trunk, granting its bite attack 10-foot reach.

Improved Grab (Ex): In order to use this ability, an opabinia must hit a Small or smaller creature with its bite attack. It can then make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it can make worry attacks.

Jagged Bite (Ex): An opabinia's bite leaves terrible tears in the flesh. Damage taken from an opabinia's bite does not heal naturally. Magical healing (such as with cure spells), fast healing, and regeneration work normally.

Worry (Ex): An opabinia shakes opponents grabbed in its jaws, dealing 1d6+4 damage every round it maintains the grapple.

Skills: An opanbinia has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line. An opabinia's five eyes grant it a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks.


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## freyar (Dec 29, 2010)

Shouldn't it be an animal if it's a real prehistoric critter, rather than an aberration?


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Shouldn't it be an animal if it's a real prehistoric critter, rather than an aberration?




Ours can be.  I didn't past Demiurge's flavor text, but his take on the opabinia was warped by the daelkyr, so aberration was an apt choice.


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## Cleon (Dec 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Shouldn't it be an animal if it's a real prehistoric critter, rather than an aberration?




I'd think Vermin suits them better, since they're non-intelligent arthropods.

Indeed most, if not all, of the creatures in that _Dragon_ article could well be Vermin.


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## RavinRay (Dec 31, 2010)

Not a true arthropod, but still a vermin to me. Is that article all about the Burgess Shale critters?


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

RavinRay said:


> Not a true arthropod, but still a vermin to me.




Well paleo-people are still arguing over the taxonomy, and are likely to be doing so for a long time. but the sources I read most recently put _Yohoia_ in Arthopoda, possibly as a proto-Chelicerate like _Sanctacaris_.

Still, I'll agree it makes little difference to them being Vermin whether they're true arthropods or "arthopod-like" creatures such as tardigrades and velvet worms.



RavinRay said:


> Is that article all about the Burgess Shale critters?




Yes, the article has monster versions of a lot of Burgess Shale fauna for both the AD&D and BUGHUNTERS games.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2010)

Hold on, I just realized the article makes all these critters animal-intelligent rather than non-intelligent.

That doesn't seem very likely paleontologically, but I'm game to make the monster version Int 1 Animals.

The conversions of the _Hallucigenia_ we did changed them to Int 0 Vermin, and I'd still prefer to do the same for the other Cambrian critters. Such primitive creature's are not likely to be very smart.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2010)

Vermin somehow just slipped my mind in the shock of seeing aberration!  I'd go with Int - (not Int 0!) vermin myself.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Vermin somehow just slipped my mind in the shock of seeing aberration!  I'd go with Int - (not Int 0!) vermin myself.




OK then, I think that's enough of us agreed to make it a Vermin.

Statwise I think we can start by modifying a Medium Monstrous Scorpion, e.g. (I increased the speed from the original's 2//4, which would give 5 ft., swim 10 ft.):

*Yohoia
*Medium Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 14 (+4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+3
Attack: Claw +2 melee (1d8+1)
Full Attack: 2 claws +2 melee (1d8+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Snatch?
Special Qualities: Camouflage, darkvision 60 ft., hold breath (or Amphibious plus water dependency?), tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +0, Will +0
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: Swim +9
Feats: —
Environment: Aquatic
Organization: Solitary or colony (2-8)
Challenge Rating: ?
Advancement: 3-5 HD (Medium); 6-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2011)

I'm all for mindless vermin as well.

That seems a reasonable start.  I'd lean toward amphibious/water dependency over hold breath, but might be convinced otherwise.


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm all for mindless vermin as well.
> 
> That seems a reasonable start.  I'd lean toward amphibious/water dependency over hold breath, but might be convinced otherwise.




I preferred amphibious/water dependency too.

Although upon reflection they don't need the Amphibious. We can simply give them Water Dependent like a Sahuagin:

*Water Dependent (Ex):* Yohoia can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.



> Yohoia ... has two four-fingered “hands” instead of the pincer. When hunting small prey, Yohoia spears its quarry on the fingertips, then folds its arm back to bring the food to its mouth.




Hmm...improved grab, snatch, or something else?



> I am assuming that the finger-spines themselves have some flexibility, enabling Yohoia to grab items too large to be conveniently speared. If it grabs a man-sized character, it may yank off a piece of gear, such as a wand, dagger, pouch, or holstered pistol. PCs trying to keep the thing from making off with their gear should make the same strength rolls as listed above for breaking free from Opabinia’s grasp. (The Opabinia’s is strong enough to yank a man off his feet and hold him under until he drowns. A trapped AD&D character must roll a strength check on 1d20 to escape.)




Didn't we come up with a "thieving strike" ability for a prior conversion?


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Hmm...improved grab, snatch, or something else?




My first thought was wrapping it all together into a Snatch-type special attack.



Shade said:


> Didn't we come up with a "thieving strike" ability for a prior conversion?




Rings a bell, but I can't quite place it.

Some kind of imp/gremlin or a larcenous bird?


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## Cleon (Jan 5, 2011)

By the way, I came across *a paper* today about a prehistoric Jamaican ibis that appears to have had nunchuks for wings. "We propose that the elongate forelimb and                      massive hand functioned in combat as a jointed club or flail."

A dire version of _Xenicibis xympithecus_ should make an nice monster...


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

I thought it was the pilfer vine, but not quite.  :/


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## Shade (Jan 5, 2011)

Cleon said:


> By the way, I came across *a paper* today about a prehistoric Jamaican ibis that appears to have had nunchuks for wings. "We propose that the elongate forelimb and                      massive hand functioned in combat as a jointed club or flail."
> 
> A dire version of _Xenicibis xympithecus_ should make an nice monster...




Indeed!  

As for the "pilfering strike", rather than wasting more time hunting for precedents...

Pilfering Strike (Ex):  With each successful claw attack, the yohoia may make a Sleight of Hand check as a free action to lift a small object from a person.  The yohoia does not suffer the usual -20 penalty on the check.


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2011)

There you go!  Looks pretty good.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2011)

Updated.



> My first thought was wrapping it all together into a Snatch-type special attack.




Looking over Snatch, it seems improved grab/constrict might work better for a creature of this size.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2011)

I was thinking improved grab and gnaw, actually, since it brings the victims to its mouth.  But that's usually associated with a bite attack.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> I was thinking improved grab and gnaw, actually, since it brings the victims to its mouth.  But that's usually associated with a bite attack.




Aren't we getting away from the original monster a bit. It didn't grapple creatures around its own size, but snatched things off them. It seems to only be able to grab much smaller opponents/victims.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2011)

Well, imp grab is normally limited to critters a size category or more smaller.  We could limit it to 2 size categories smaller, but since it hunts by grabbing and then eating things, I think imp grab is appropriate.


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, imp grab is normally limited to critters a size category or more smaller.  We could limit it to 2 size categories smaller, but since it hunts by grabbing and then eating things, I think imp grab is appropriate.




That works for me.


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## Cleon (Jan 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, imp grab is normally limited to critters a size category or more smaller.  We could limit it to 2 size categories smaller, but since it hunts by grabbing and then eating things, I think imp grab is appropriate.




I still prefer folding the snatching effects together, something like this:

*Snatching Claws (Ex):* If a yohoia hits an opponent with a claw attack it automatically tries to "snatch" the opponent as a free action and transfer it to its mouthparts. Resolve this special attack as a grapple attempt which does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

If a yohoia succeeds in snatching an opponent 2 or more sizes smaller than itself, it establishes a hold and automatically chews the grappled opponent for X damage on each subsequent rounds.

If a yohoia make a successful snatching claws attack against an opponent bigger than 2 sizes smaller than the yohoia, it steals a randomly selected object held or carried by its opponent. The yohoia transfers the stolen object to its mouthparts and chews it for X damage per round. If the object is even vaguely edible (e.g. iron rations, leather boot,  unlucky familiar) the yohoia will continue chewing it until  it is destroyed. Should the object proves inedible, the yohoia spits it out after a single round of chewing.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2011)

That looks like a great Cleon Special (TM).


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> That looks like a great Cleon Special (TM).




That reads suspiciously like "more Special than Shade would like for the Enworld version".


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## Cleon (Jan 13, 2011)

Oh, and what are we doing about the Camouflage?

I'm thinking the standard static DC20 version is good enough.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and what are we doing about the Camouflage?
> 
> I'm thinking the standard static DC20 version is good enough.




Other transparent creatures usually have a racial bonus on Hide checks.  The static DC 20 camouflage is usually reserved for creatures that resemble inanimate objects.   I'll see if I can find a precedent or two to determine the amount of the bonus.

Edit:  I stand corrected.  The g-cube has this...

Transparent (Ex): Gelatinous cubes are hard to see, even under ideal conditions, and it takes a DC 15 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a cube and walk into it are automatically engulfed.

In that case, I'm fine with simply borrowing that ability.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't think they're quite as transparent as a cube, though.  I'd probably prefer a racial bonus to Hide.

Cleon, all your monsters are special.


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## Cleon (Jan 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Other transparent creatures usually have a racial bonus on Hide checks.  The static DC 20 camouflage is usually reserved for creatures that resemble inanimate objects.   I'll see if I can find a precedent or two to determine the amount of the bonus.
> 
> Edit:  I stand corrected.  The g-cube has this...
> 
> ...




It's the Icetails that are partially transparent, this thread's currently converting the _Yohoia_. That beastie covers itself in silt and springs out at passing prey.

Maybe a crocodile-like "covers itself in mud so only eyes and claw-tips are visible, giving a +12 circumstance bonus on Hide checks" plus a racial bonus on Hide checks when on muddy seafloors. The latter assumes it's mud-coloured, which seems reasonable.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2011)

+12 might be a bit much, but I'm all for the crocodilian Hide bonus.


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

+8 then?


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## Cleon (Jan 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> +8 then?




I could tolerate that, or we could split the difference like the SRD Crocodile's "Further, a crocodile can lie in the water with only its eyes and nostrils showing, gaining a *+10* cover bonus on Hide checks."


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2011)

+8 when lying still, +10 when buried in mud?


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2011)

Works for me.


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## Cleon (Jan 20, 2011)

Shade said:


> +8 when lying still, +10 when buried in mud?




I'd prefer them to be a bit more obvious when not concealed beneath mud. Maybe +4 bonus normally, +10 buried? Or split it evenly +5/+10?


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

Let's keep it even numbers, so +4 and +10.

Essentially, that's the same as the crocodile, so...

*A yohoia gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water. Further, a yohoia can lie in the water with only its eyes and claws showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.

Updated.

As an aside, I like these fellas, because I can search for "Yoho" to quickly find 'em in the Homebrews thread.   A pirate's life for me!


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2011)

Ahoy, matey!

Weren't we going to give them gnaw to go with imp grab?

CR 2 in that case?

A ft-long lobster is what, 5 lb?  That would make these around 1000 lb.  Seem too heavy?


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2011)

It looks like you and Cleon never reached an agreement on gnaw.  I'm impartial on the matter.  



freyar said:


> I was thinking improved grab and gnaw, actually, since it brings the victims to its mouth.  But that's usually associated with a bite attack.






Cleon said:


> Aren't we getting away from the original monster a bit. It didn't grapple creatures around its own size, but snatched things off them. It seems to only be able to grab much smaller opponents/victims.


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Let's keep it even numbers, so +4 and +10.
> 
> Essentially, that's the same as the crocodile, so...
> 
> ...




They bury themselves in mud, remember. They don't lie just at the surface of water crocodile-fashion.

Something like:

Skills: A yohoia has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some  special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a  Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action  while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A yohoia gains a  +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water or liquid mud. Further, a yohoia can bury itself in liquid mud with only its eyes and claws showing, gaining a +10  cover bonus on Hide checks.


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ahoy, matey!
> 
> Weren't we going to give them gnaw to go with imp grab?




Can we just modify the Improved Grab like the SRD Squid, except with claw damage instead of a bite. It only "gnaws" creatures 2 or more sizes smaller, so it isn't much use against most adventurers.



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> *Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a squid must hit an opponent of any size with its arms attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage. *A squid has a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks.




*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a yohoia must hit an  opponent two or more sizes smaller than itself with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a  grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If  it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically  deals claw damage every round it can maintain the grapple.



freyar said:


> CR 2 in that case?




I'd say CR 1. They're not far away from a Medium Monstrous Scorpion challenge-wise.



freyar said:


> A ft-long lobster is what, 5 lb?  That would make these around 1000 lb.  Seem too heavy?




A European Lobster (_Homarus gammarus_) is typically about 25-40 cm and 0.7-2.2 kg, big one can reach 50-60 cm and up to 6 kg or so. There are records of them reaching 9-10 kg, and a 126 cm lobster was caught in 1931 Cornwall.

Going by that, assuming a Yohoia has a similar build, its 6 foot of length might weigh anywhere between 350 lb and 485 lbs, which suggests an average about 400 lbs.

That's a bit high for my taste, and the reconstructions of _Yohoia_ look a bit slimmer than a lobster, so I'd cut its weight a bit.

300 pounds?


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## Cleon (Jan 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> It looks like you and Cleon never reached an agreement on gnaw.  I'm impartial on the matter.




I'd rather cut Gnaw and fold the damage into Imp. Grab.

It can't use it against man-sized opponents so there's little point emphasizing it.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2011)

There's not so much point in imp grab, by that logic.   But we don't have to spell out the claw damage.  Here's the relevant line in Imp Grab:



			
				SRD said:
			
		

> If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2011)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2011)

Looks fine.


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




The description seems a bit wordy, how many adventures would stop to count its segments and secondary appendages?

How about this:
_
This segmented creature resembles a cross between a lobster and a woodlouse, with an elongated trunk that ends in a paddle-shaped tail. Instead of a lobster's claws it has two arm-like limbs__, each ends in a "hand" of four finger-like spikes. __Bulbous formations at the front of its head-shield appear to be eyes._

Also, we should list a Sleight of Hand modifier for its Pilfering Strike (especially as that skill can't normally be used untrained!). Come to think of it, we'd better add some text explaining it can make untrained sleight of hand.

Also, it currently only has a 5% chance per attack of swiping something. I'd rather make it a bit higher. Say give it a +4 racial bonus for 25%?

Putting it together:
*Skills:* Hide +0*, Sleight of Hand +0*, Swim +9

*Pilfering Strike (Ex):* With each successful claw attack, the yohoia may  make a Sleight of Hand check as a free action to lift a small object  from a person (a typical yohoia has a +4 modifier on this check). Yohoia can make untrained Sleight of Hand skill checks with pilfering strike and do not suffer the usual -20 penalty on such checks.

*Skills:* A yohoia has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some  special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a  Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action  while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*A yohoia can make Sleight of Hand skill checks for its pilfering strike special attack as untrained skill checks with a +4 racial bonus. It can not use Sleight of Hand to make untrained skill checks for any other action.

*A yohoia gains a  +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in the water or liquid mud.  Further, a yohoia can bury itself in liquid mud with only its eyes and  claws showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.​Apart from those two quibbles I think it's good to go.


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## Cleon (Jan 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Looking at tactics. I don't much like the "similar to a hive of bees" reference since it carries too much social insect baggage (implying a hive-like nest, queens et cetera). I know it's in the original, but it just feels wrong.

I also prefer "opponent's" to "victim's" and "on its fingertips" to "on the fingertips":

When hunting small prey, a yohoia spears its quarry on its fingertips,  then folds its arm back to bring the food to its mouth. Groups of yohoia  often work together against a common threat, like a swarm of insects.    A yohoia's flexible finger-spines have been known to yank off a piece  of their opponent's gear.


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2011)

Great suggestions.  Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 26, 2011)

That does sound better.


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## Shade (Jan 26, 2011)

Ready for the next one?


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2011)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

*Marrella*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-24
ARMOR CLASS: 6, 2 (head)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6/1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Charge
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: L (12’ long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 975

From earlier in the article...

To simplify the listings, all creatures will conform to the following AD&D statistics unless otherwise noted:
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Shallow sea floor
DIET: Carnivore/Scavenger
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil

All these animals walk or crawl on the bottom of the sea, though some can swim. For game purposes, I’ve assumed that some can come out of the water for short periods of time.

This arthropod looks something like a cross between a trilobite and a centipede. It spends most of its time in the water (the fluffy-looking antennae are gills), but it can spend up to an hour at a time on dry land, and often does so traveling from one body of water to another.

The Marrella attacks by means of its two wiplike antennae, lashing out for 1d6 points of damage each. In addition, a Marrella at least 10’ away from its foe can charge, doing damage through impact with its heavily armored head (2d8 damage points). Attacks on the head are less effective than on the body.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


----------



## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sure!




The Yohoia looks finished to me too.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2011)

Ok, for marella: sounds like 8HD, Large Vermin.  Two tentacles/tendrils (for lack of a better term) and powerful charge -- do we need to give it a slam to go with that?


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Marrella*
> 
> Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).




These seem pretty straightforward. A Large Vermin with 2 "whip" attacks and a slam, plus Powerful Charge and Water Dependency.

Maybe base the stats on the SRD Giant Stag Beetle?


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## Cleon (Jan 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, for marella: sounds like 8HD, Large Vermin.  Two tentacles/tendrils (for lack of a better term) and powerful charge -- do we need to give it a slam to go with that?




Looks like we're cross-posting.

As I indicated earlier, I would prefer a slam attack, just one it doesn't use much except in a charge.

I'm also thinking we should aim for the higher AC value (AC2) rather than the lower AC6.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2011)

The higher AC appeals.

I also wonder if we shouldn't give it extended reach, since they went out of their way to point it out in the original.


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## Cleon (Jan 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> The higher AC appeals.
> 
> I also wonder if we shouldn't give it extended reach, since they went out of their way to point it out in the original.




Not extended, but I was going to go for short-reach with the slam and long-reach with the whips.

Might as well stat something out:

*Marrella, Giant*
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 8d8+24 (60 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class:* 18 (-1 size, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+16
*Attack:* Whip +11 melee (1d6+6) or slam +11 melee (1d8+6)
*Full Attack:* 2 whips +11 melee (1d6+6) or slam +11 melee (1d8+6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with whip)
*Special Attacks:* Powerful charge
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits, water dependency
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +2, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 10, Con 17, Int –, Wis 10, Cha 9
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* —
*Environment:* Any aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary, cluster (2-5) or mass (6-24)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Advancement:* 9-11 HD (Large); 12-24 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Powerful Charge (Ex):* When a giant marrella charges, its slam attack deals 2d8+12 points of damage.

*Water Dependent (Ex):* Marrella can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 4 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules).


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2011)

Seems pretty good to me right there.  An idea: Why not make the slam secondary since it doesn't use it much?


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## Cleon (Jan 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems pretty good to me right there.  An idea: Why not make the slam secondary since it doesn't use it much?




Do you mean secondary as in "a standard attack treated as a secondary weapon" or "full attacks with 2 whips and a (secondary) slam" or "secondary slam as a standard attack, primary slam with Powerful Charge".

The last option might look something like:

*Attack:* Whip +11 melee (1d6+6) or slam +6 melee (1d8+3)
*Full Attack:* 2 whips +11 melee (1d6+6) or slam +11 melee (1d8+9)

A Marrella's slam attack is treated as a secondary weapon when it makes a standard attack, but is not penalized when it makes a full attack or a charge.

 *Powerful Charge (Ex):* When a giant marrella charges, its slam attack deals 2d8+12 points of damage.


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## freyar (Feb 2, 2011)

I mean secondary as in the normal definition "Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity."

But I suppose you could maybe talk me into no penalty on a charge.  I think it should have the penalty on a normal full attack, though.


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## Cleon (Feb 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> I mean secondary as in the normal definition "Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity."
> 
> But I suppose you could maybe talk me into no penalty on a charge.  I think it should have the penalty on a normal full attack, though.




So this:

*Attack:* Whip +11 melee (1d6+6) or slam +6 melee (1d8+3)
*Full Attack:* 2 whips +11 melee (1d6+6) or slam +6 melee (1d8+3)

 *Powerful Charge (Ex):* When a giant marrella charges, its slam attack deals 2d8+12 points of damage and is treated as a primary natural weapon (+11 melee).

I could live with that, although I quite liked the "full slam" option.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2011)

Just seems that you might as well make the slam primary in that case.  And you're really only supposed to have one (set of) primary weapon(s).


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2011)

Yeah, let's keep it secondary.  It can always choose to attack with it as its sole attack if it prefers.

How about giving it improved grab with its whips, and something akin to gnaw where it gets a free charging slam attack (with powerful charge) if it hits with both whips?


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## Cleon (Feb 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yeah, let's keep it secondary.  It can always choose to attack with it as its sole attack if it prefers.
> 
> How about giving it improved grab with its whips, and something akin to gnaw where it gets a free charging slam attack (with powerful charge) if it hits with both whips?




We've already got far too many creatures with Improved Grab, so I'd rather not add another one. Slamming foes with charging head-butts is its schtick.

Furthermore, I think of Marrella as being more of a scavenger than a predator.

Besides, if its whips have a 10 foot reach how would it have enough distance to charge an opponent it's grabbed with them?


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## Shade (Feb 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We've already got far too many creatures with Improved Grab, so I'd rather not add another one. Slamming foes with charging head-butts is its schtick.




That's not the strongest argument.  That's like saying too many creatures have poison.  Improved grab is simply one of those far-too-necessary abilities.   Generally, if it has tentacle-like attacks, it'll have improved grab.



Cleon said:


> Furthermore, I think of Marrella as being more of a scavenger than a predator.




Now that's a better reason.  



Cleon said:


> Besides, if its whips have a 10 foot reach how would it have enough distance to charge an opponent it's grabbed with them?




It wouldn't, under normal charging rules.  But there are feats and other abilities that allow "partial charges".  Still, I'm fine to drop this idea.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2011)

I'm ok with leaving them as is.  As scavengers, they don't need to be the toughest combatants.


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## Cleon (Feb 9, 2011)

freyar said:


> I'm ok with leaving them as is.  As scavengers, they don't need to be the toughest combatants.




We seem to be agreed on the grabless Marrella then.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




So all we need is a weight and fleshing out the flavour and tactics a bit.

For a start, they don't have a swim speed or swim skill listed so "it swims just above the muddy ocean floor" makes little sense.

The description could do with a bit more prettying up, too.

How about:

_This creature resembles a cross between a trilobite and a centipede.   Its head is a __large, __ armored shield sporting two pairs of long rearward spikes.  Two  pairs of antennae protrude from the underside of its head, one pair of antennae are long whiplike organs, the other pair are short and stout.  __ Its colorful body has an  iridescent sheen, each body segment__ has a pair of branched appendages, the lower branch is a leg and the upper a feathery gill._

Marrella is a prehistoric marine arthropod.  It spends most of its time crawling across the muddy ocean floor looking for food. Marrella are primarily scavengers, but capture prey if given the chance. They can spend several hours at a time on dry land, and often leave the water to comb beaches for food or travel from one body of water to another.

A marrella is 12 feet long and weighs 2000 pounds.

* COMBAT*
A marrella starts combat by charging an opponent with a smashingly powerful slam, then attack by lashing its two whiplike antennae. Marrella never retreat, since they are too brainless to realize when they're losing a fight.


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

Updated.

Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Yes.

On to the Odontogriphus!


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2011)

*Odontogriphus*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 10
MOVEMENT: 6, SW 12
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Blood drain,
constriction
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: H (18’ long)
MORALE: Average (8)
XP VALUE: 270

Odontogriphus is seems like a cross between a flatworm (like the planaria you mess with in biology class) and a leech, with a swimming style somewhat like that of a manta ray. It has a mouth with a curious ring of teeth on its underside, so its attack method is obvious: drop down on the prey from above, bite in, and start sucking. The bite does 1d6 points of damage initially, with another 1d4 points per round due to blood drain. A stricken AD&D character must roll a successful Strength check (as above) to escape.

Because of its flexibility, Odontogriphus also has the capability for a constriction attack, dropping itself down on man-sized or smaller prey and wrapping itself around it like an aquatic version of the AD&D game’s lurker above. Constriction adds 1d6 damage per attack, and suffocates the victim within 1d4 + 1 rounds at most. Even if the character is underwater and has her own air supply, she still suffocates, as this attack prevents her from drawing air into her lungs. All attacks made on the constricting monster will do half damage (rounding down) on the constricting victim.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Odontogriphus*
> FREQUENCY: Uncommon
> NO. APPEARING: 1-8
> ARMOR CLASS: 10
> ...




These seem too weak too be Huge.

Make them Large Vermin (Aquatic) with 4 Hit Dice?

I'd set their stats as similar to a Large Constrictor Snake with no NA and Dex 13 which has a Blood Drain attack.

If they're built like leech/flatworms I think they should climbers as well as crawlers.

Should be easy to whip up some stats.


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## Cleon (Feb 11, 2011)

*Odontogriphus Working Draft*

*Odontogriphus*
Large Vermin
*Hit Dice:* 4d8+4 (22 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), climb 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 10 (-1 size, +1 Dex), touch 10, flat-footed 9
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+11
*Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+6)
*Full Attack:* Bite +6 melee (1d6+6)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Blood drain, constrict 1d6+6, improved grab
*Special Qualities:* Scent, vermin traits
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +0
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 13, Con 13, Int –, Wis 8, Cha 2
*Skills:* Climb +12, Hide +1, Listen +5, Swim +12
*Feats:* —
*Environment:* Any aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or swarm (2-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Advancement:* 5-6 HD (Large); 7-12 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_Description_

Flavour

*COMBAT*
Odontogriphus hunt by grabbing prey with their mouths and sucking their blood, while squeezing their victim with their powerful bodies.

*Blood Drain (Ex):* An odontogriphus drains blood for 1d4 points of Constitution damage each round it maintains a hold on an opponent. It does not need to make a grapple check, but continues automatically draining blood until its victim escapes its grip (see Escape from Grapple) or dies and is drained of all their blood.

*Constrict (Ex):* On a successful grapple check, an odontogriphus deals 1d6+6 points of damage.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, an odontogriphus must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can blood drain and constrict.

*Skills:* Odontogriphus have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Listen checks. An odontogriphus has a +8 racial bonus on Climb and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Odontogriphus has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2011)

As long as they advance to Huge, I'm happy with making them large. 

Upsizing a giant leech (Small) to Large yields...

Str 18, Dex 8, Con 17, Int -, Wis 8, Cha 2

I can't find a Large constrictor, but the giant (Huge) variety has...

Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Your assessment of Dex 13 appeals, but I'm not sure what do do with the Str and Con.  I'm tempted to use the leech's Str (18) and the snake's Con (13).  The leech's mental scores should suffice.


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## Cleon (Feb 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> As long as they advance to Huge, I'm happy with making them large.
> 
> Upsizing a giant leech (Small) to Large yields...
> 
> ...




You couldn't find a Large Constrictor 'cause there isn't one in the SRD. 

However, a standard Constrictor is Str 17 and Medium and a Giant Constrictor is Str 25 and Huge.

Averaging the two produces Str 21 and Large.

That said, I like Strength 18 better since it gives a nice neat 1d6+6 damage.

Wisdom 8 like a leech also looks good to me.

I'll change them both.

*Updated*.


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## Shade (Feb 14, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Since they were clearly aquatic, added that subtype.  Do you want any ability to survive on land?

An odontogriphus is 18 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Feb 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> Since they were clearly aquatic, added that subtype.  Do you want any ability to survive on land?




Funny, I was sure I had Aquatic in my last draft. I though I copy-and-pasted the Types of the Marrella.

As for surviving on land, I think this one will stick to the water.

Upon reflection, I'm wondering whether we should cut out the Climb speed and leave it as a swimmer & crawler...

...no, if it's got a mollusc-style foot it would be a good climber, since it can use it to grip vertical surfaces.



Shade said:


> An odontogriphus is 18 feet long and weighs x pounds.




Tricky. Its body plan doesn't match well to anything living so we don't have anything to compare it to.

Still, it's a free swimmer so *must* have the same density as water. It's roughly 18' long and 6' wide. If we knew its thickness we can calculate its mass. Unfortunately, there's no way to tell from the fossil.

It's compared to a flatworm, which have bodies about one twentieth as thick as their length (or about 30-50% as thick as their width).

That suggests an average thickness of about 9 inches to a foot, which gives a volume of ... 75-100 cubic feet, or 4,700 to 6,250 pounds weight.

Call it 5000 pounds.

That's over the standard weights for a Large creature, but there are  Oozes and other living things that are overweight for their Size.

Incidentally, that's about the weight of a big (~25' ft.) manta ray, a creature their swimming style is compared to.

"A typical odontogriphus is about 18 feet long and weighs up to 5,000 pounds, most of its 6 foot wide body is less than a foot thick."


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2011)

Updated.  Finished already?


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## freyar (Feb 16, 2011)

Guess so!


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## Cleon (Feb 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished already?




I'd remove the mention of "warm-blooded prey" from the flavour text. It seems an unnecessary carry-over from the Leech. They probably mostly feed on fish and giant arthropods, after all.

Also, the original description says "its attack method is obvious: drop down on the prey from above, bite in, and start sucking". Shouldn't we mention the "death from above" in tactics?

Further, it says "dropping itself down on man-sized or smaller prey" which implies they only attack creatures smaller than themselves (which makes sense following the standard Improved Grab / Constrict rules. I think we should add that in too.

Revising...

Odontogriphus is a prehistoric marine bilaterian. It spends most of its time swimming across the sea floor, hunting for prey from which to obtain nourishing blood.

A typical odontogriphus is about 18 feet long and weighs up to 5,000 pounds, most of its 6 foot wide body is less than a foot thick.

COMBAT

An odontogriphus hunts by dropping on prey from above, grabbing hold with its mouth, and then sucking its victim's blood while squeezing with its powerful bodies. They only attack creatures smaller than themselves.


----------



## Shade (Feb 16, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Feb 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks finished.


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2011)

*Leanchoilia*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 4 (crawling and swimming)
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4/1d6 (x2)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Entangle
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: L (8’ long)
MORALE: Average (8)
XP VALUE: 270

This arthropod has fin-feet of the sort common to Burgess creatures such as Opabinia and Yohoia, enabling it to both swim and crawl at the same slow, steady pace. It is otherwise noted for three things: a pair of antennaelike frontal appendages, each ending with three whips; an armored shell (in the BUGHUNTERS game, this blocks four points of damage per attack and reduces lethality ratings by two); and a saw-edged tail spine that may have been used for digging. (It is not a weapon, but you don’t need to tell the players that!)

In battle, Leanchoilia lashes out with its whiplike arms, doing 1d6 points of damage with each. Aside from laceration damage, they also may entangle a target of mansize or smaller, making him unable to fight back or escape unless he makes a Strength roll on 1d20. Prey that has been successfully snagged will be dragged to the mouth, which inflicts 1d4 points of biting damage per combat sequence. As the creature can come out on dry land for an hour or so, it is a considerable threat to human life.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


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## Cleon (Feb 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> *Leanchoilia*




How about modifying the Marrella - reduce the Str and Con by "half a size", give it three whips as a primary attack (with Improved Grab), plus a secondary bite attack (which it can use to Gnaw a grabbed victim).

Hold on! Looking at the Marrella why in the Cambrian Ocean does it have Charisma 9? Shouldn't it be Cha 2 or 3?

Anyhow, something like this for the new one:

*Leanchoilia*
Large Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 5d8+10 (32 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 10 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (-1 size, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+11
Attack: Whip +6 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: 3 whips +6 melee (1d6+4) and bite +1 melee (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft. (10 ft. with whip)
Special Attacks: Gnaw, improved grab
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits, water dependency
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 2?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Large); 11-15 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: —


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2011)

That seems about right.  I'll lower the Cha on the marrella as well.


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2011)

Seems pretty good to me too.


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## Cleon (Feb 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems pretty good to me too.




Good! It just needs some descriptive text then.


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## Shade (Feb 28, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

A leanchoilia is 8 feet long and weighs x pounds.  (A marrella is 12 feet long and weighs 2,000 pounds.)

Flavor text is essentially a straight port from the marrella, as I could find little on them outside the original text.

Tactics?


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## freyar (Mar 4, 2011)

Scaling would give a bit less than 1/3 the weight, so maybe 600 lb.

Tactics: attack only when it looks like they have a clear advantage, since they're primarily scavengers?


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Scaling would give a bit less than 1/3 the weight, so maybe 600 lb.
> 
> Tactics: attack only when it looks like they have a clear advantage, since they're primarily scavengers?




Okay, a few points.

Firstly, no eyes have been found for _Leanchoilia_ so it may have been a blind creature that felt around with its "whips".

Shall we add the Blind and Blindsight SQs?

Secondly, *reconstructions* show an animal with a much thicker body than a _Marrella_. I suggest doubling _Leanchoilia's_ weight to 1200 pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 7, 2011)

Weight is fine.

Are the fossils good enough to be sure there aren't some kind of soft light sensing organs?  I wouldn't know.


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## Cleon (Mar 8, 2011)

freyar said:


> Weight is fine.
> 
> Are the fossils good enough to be sure there aren't some kind of soft light sensing organs?  I wouldn't know.




To the best of my knowledge, we can't be _*sure*_ they didn't have soft light-sensing organs.

How about compromising by giving them poor eyesight (e.g. no ranks in or racial bonus in Spot) plus blindsight due to their feelers?


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about compromising by giving them poor eyesight (e.g. no ranks in or racial bonus in Spot) plus blindsight due to their feelers?




I like it, and it helps differentiate them.

Since it already lacks skills and a racial bonus to Spot, we could borrow this...

Myopic (Ex): A rekeihs is nearsighted, resulting in a -8 racial penalty on Spot checks made beyond 30 feet.

Blindsight 30 ft.?


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2011)

Neat, nice idea.  Let's go with that.


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## Cleon (Mar 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Neat, nice idea.  Let's go with that.




Suits me too.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2011)

Updated.

Suggested tactics?


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## Cleon (Mar 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Suggested tactics?




How's this:

*Combat*
Should a creature smaller than a leanchoilia wander too close to it (within 30 feet or so), the leanchoilia will charge and try to seize that creature in its whip. If it takes hold of its prey it will whip and gnaw away until either the leancholia or its victim dies. Leancholia instinctively avoid any creature their own size or larger.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Looks good.  Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Mar 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> Looks good.  Updated.  Finished?




Looks done, except I left a couple of typos in the tactics (some leanchoilia are mispelled leancholia). It should be:

*Combat*
Should a creature smaller than a leanchoilia wander too close to it  (within 30 feet or so), the leanchoilia will charge and try to seize  that creature in its whip. If it takes hold of its prey it will whip and  gnaw away until either the leanchoilia or its victim dies. Leanchoilia  instinctively avoid any creature their own size or larger.

I think it's a bit odd it gets 3 whip attacks when it has 2 antennae, each with a triple whip (for 6 whips in total). If I was designing it I'd give it 2 (1/antennae) or 6 (1/whip) attacks.

Still, 3 whips is what the AD&D version had and I don't mind keeping to that.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Looks done, except I left a couple of typos in the tactics (some leanchoilia are mispelled leancholia). It should be:
> 
> *Combat*
> Should a creature smaller than a leanchoilia wander too close to it  (within 30 feet or so), the leanchoilia will charge and try to seize  that creature in its whip. If it takes hold of its prey it will whip and  gnaw away until either the leanchoilia or its victim dies. Leanchoilia  instinctively avoid any creature their own size or larger.
> ...




That is odd!   I'm happy to reduce it to two attacks, as three for two natural weapons is essentially broken.


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2011)

Good point, let's drop to two whip attacks.


----------



## Shade (Mar 16, 2011)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2011)

All done?


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## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Good point, let's drop to two whip attacks.




I'm happy leaving it with three whip attacks. Maybe it lashes with one of its "arms" and gets an attack for each whip on that limb?


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## Cleon (Mar 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> All done?




Apart from liking the original's triple-whip attack, the Combat entry should have "seize that creature in its whips" rather than a single "whip".


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'm happy leaving it with three whip attacks. Maybe it lashes with one of its "arms" and gets an attack for each whip on that limb?




While that makes some sense, it would seem to support 6 attacks (2 per "arm"), which is too many for such a low-CR creature.   Also, multi-pronged attacks (like the scourge) have a precedent as a single attack in 3.5.  Let's just go with 2 and call it a day.

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2011)

All done, then?


----------



## Shade (Mar 22, 2011)

Methinks.

*Amiskwia*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 8, Sw 24
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6 + 2
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: M (5' long)
MORALE: Average (10)
XP VALUE: 65

Amiskwia is a wormlike equivalent to modern-day seals, being a strong swimmer that hunches along on land at lesser speeds. It also spends about as much time on land as a seal would, living in small colonies. Its main attack is a bite that does 1d6 +2 points of damage. The members of a threatened colony will frequently gang up on a lone intruder, or on a small group of them.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


----------



## freyar (Mar 22, 2011)

Ok, 3HD.  Looks like Str is pretty decent (could stick to 14-15 for the +2 to damage, but I think it would be fair to bump in the conversion).  And a 1d6 bite.  Nothing else to speak of, I guess.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> All done, then?




Yup.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, 3HD.  Looks like Str is pretty decent (could stick to 14-15 for the +2 to damage, but I think it would be fair to bump in the conversion).  And a 1d6 bite.  Nothing else to speak of, I guess.




That's what I was thinking.

Might as well go for Str 15.

20 ft. crawling and 50-60 ft. swimming.

Downsize a Purple Worm, change it to an Aquatic Vermin, and give it Str 15?

Purple Worm: Str 35, Dex 6, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8
Medium Worm: Str 11, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8

Hmph. Better cut the Charisma too:

Amiskwia: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 2, NA +2 ?


----------



## freyar (Mar 28, 2011)

Works for me.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Works for me.




I'll start a working draft then.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

*Amiskwia Working Draft*

*Amiskwia*
Medium Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 3d8+3 (16 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft.
Armor Class: 13 (+1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+4
Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +4 melee (1d6+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Vermin traits, water dependent
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 2
Skills: Swim +10
Feats: —
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary, cluster (2-5) or colony (5-20)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

_Description_

Amiskwia is an *X**X**X**X*.

An amiskwia is 5 feet long and weighs *X* pounds.

* COMBAT
* 
Tactics.
*
Water Dependent (Ex):* Amiskwia can survive out of the water for 1  hour per *X* points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning  rules). 

*Skills:* An amiskwia  has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform  some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10  on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run  action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 31, 2011)

Shade said:


> While that makes some sense, it would seem to support 6 attacks (2 per "arm"), which is too many for such a low-CR creature.   Also, multi-pronged attacks (like the scourge) have a precedent as a single attack in 3.5.  Let's just go with 2 and call it a day.
> 
> Updated.




Rereading the original description it has 2 arms (1d6 damage) and a bite (1d4 damage) in the first place. How on earth did we get so confused?


----------



## Shade (Apr 4, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Rereading the original description it has 2 arms (1d6 damage) and a bite (1d4 damage) in the first place. How on earth did we get so confused?




Wow...we really went off the rails on that one!

The Amiskwia Working Draft is looking good.  Swim speed converts to 60 feet.  I'd retain that, since it has little else to make it interesting.


----------



## freyar (Apr 5, 2011)

Agreed with all that....


----------



## Shade (Apr 5, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




I'm OK with a 60 ft. swim speed.

Not much left to do.

250 pounds weight?

"1 hour per 4 points of Constitution" for Water Dependency like the others, or does their wormlike body make them more vulnerable to dehydration?

Maybe "10 minutes per point of Constitution"?


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2011)

I like "10 minutes per point of Constitution".

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like "10 minutes per point of Constitution".




So did I.



Shade said:


> Updated.




Looks done.

I did a check and, remarkably, couldn't find any obvious errors.

We must be slipping.


----------



## Shade (Apr 8, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We must be slipping.




We'll try harder with the next one.  

*Sanctacaris*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 3, 0 (head)
MOVEMENT: 8 (crawling and swimming)
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: H (15’ long)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 650

Sanctacaris is a primitive arthropod that seems to be an ancestor of the arachnids (horseshoe crabs, spiders, etc.). In appearance, it looks like a centipede with the armor of a lobster. However, the legs are more like fins, and the jaws have branching sets of feeding appendages on them. The men who described it scientifically nicknamed it “Santa Claws.”

This creature bites its prey, doing 1d12 points of damage. It lives in one of two types of caves: those that are narrow tunnels, and those with narrow entrance tunnels but chambers wide enough for the animal to turn around in. It always backs into the former cave. Either way, anyone attempting to invade its lair will face its formidable jaws and head, which is more heavily armored than the body. 

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> We'll try harder with the next one.
> 
> *Sanctacaris*




Holy shrimps! I remember seeing a fossil of one of these at the ROM.

Do we want to keep it Huge?

15 foot could be the upper end of Large or the smaller end of Huge in 3E terms. A 1d12 bite doesn't seem very impressive for a Huge predator, so I'm leaning towards Large.


----------



## Shade (Apr 11, 2011)

As long as Advancement goes to Huge, I'm content with Large.


----------



## freyar (Apr 11, 2011)

Go for Large.


----------



## Shade (Apr 12, 2011)

Sounds good.  Do we have another Large shrimplike creature for ability score inspiration?


----------



## freyar (Apr 12, 2011)

How about the Chuul, weighing in at 11HD and Str 20, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 5?  I might tone that down a little for a 7HD critter, but it might work.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 12, 2011)

freyar said:


> How about the Chuul, weighing in at 11HD and Str 20, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 5?  I might tone that down a little for a 7HD critter, but it might work.




I'm fine with those physical stats.

The Santa-Claws is a lot bigger & stockier than a Phase Spider (Str 17, Dex 17, Con 16), so ought to have a higher Str and Con, although that Dex seems way too good.

Maybe not quite that high a Strength, either.

Wisdom 10, Cha 3?

Str 19, Dex 13, Con 18, Int --, Wis 10, Cha 2 ?


----------



## Shade (Apr 13, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.

Do anything with this?



> It lives in one of two types of caves: those that are narrow tunnels, and those with narrow entrance tunnels but chambers wide enough for the animal to turn around in. It always backs into the former cave. Either way, anyone attempting to invade its lair will face its formidable jaws and head, which is more heavily armored than the body.




While 3.5 doesn't allow rules for different ACs for different body parts, I could see giving it a circumstance bonus to AC when fighting in tunnels no larger than its Space.  Thoughts?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> While 3.5 doesn't allow rules for different ACs for different body parts, I could see giving it a circumstance bonus to AC when fighting in tunnels no larger than its Space.  Thoughts?




Sure, why not.

A +3 bonus like the difference in the original's head & body ACs?


----------



## Shade (Apr 14, 2011)

Something like this?

Armored Head (Ex):  A sanctacaris gains a +3 circumstance bonus to its Armor Class when fighting in tunnels no larger than its Space.


----------



## freyar (Apr 15, 2011)

All works for me.


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Updated.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Something like this?
> 
> Armored Head (Ex):  A sanctacaris gains a +3 circumstance bonus to its Armor Class when fighting in tunnels no larger than its Space.




That looks fine.


----------



## Shade (Apr 15, 2011)

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A sanctacaris is 15 feet long and weighs x pounds.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: x




Challenge Rating 3?

They don't have anything special going for them, so CR would be pretty low.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




Advancement: 8-11 HD (Large); 12-21 HD (Huge) ?



Shade said:


> A sanctacaris is 15 feet long and weighs x pounds.




They're build pretty much the same as a Leanchoilia, so ought to weigh 4000-8000 pounds. Let's say 4000, the cusp of Large/Huge.

A sanctacaris is 15 feet long and weighs 4000 pounds or more. ?


----------



## freyar (Apr 17, 2011)

The bite in full attack needs to match the attack line 1d12+6.  

I'd actually say CR 4, since I think it's better than the CR 3 animated object (but not as good as the CR 5 one).

The rest is good.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> The bite in full attack needs to match the attack line 1d12+6.
> 
> I'd actually say CR 4, since I think it's better than the CR 3 animated object (but not as good as the CR 5 one).
> 
> The rest is good.




I was wondering whether someone else would mention that bite damage before I did.

I'm not sure an Animated Object is a good comparison, since they're too variable in their abilities - they might have Hardness or Trample, for example.

A Giant Stag Beetle may be a better comparison - those are pretty similar statwise except they have a better attack than a _Sanctacaris_ (4d6+9 vs 1d12+6), which is almost twice as much average damage (21 vs 12.5). That might be enough to lower the Stag Beetle's CR4 to CR3.

Still, I'd be OK to go with Challenge Rating 4 if that's the majority.

Where's our Shady tiebreaker when we need him?


----------



## Shade (Apr 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Where's our Shady tiebreaker when we need him?




_Foooooouuuuurrrrrrr!_

Updated.


----------



## freyar (Apr 19, 2011)

Done then?


----------



## Shade (Apr 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Done then?




Methinks.

Here's the next one...

*Wiwaxia*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1-8
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 2
HIT DICE: 2
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
-DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spines
SIZE: S (3’ long)
MORALE: Steady

Wiwaxia is a small, bottom-crawling creature a yard in length, protected by hard scaly plates and fourteen long spines (seven per side). This animal is more of a scavenger than a carnivore, but it will attack live prey when an opportunity presents itself.

Wiwaxia’s toothy jaws slant slightly backward, while the toothless center bulges forward. The animal attacks by crawling forward, pressing the bulge against the target and causing the jaws to spring forward and snap shut, doing 1d8 points of damage. Because of its armor, Wiwaxia is hard to damage, and anyone who presses a melee attack will take 1d10 points of damage from the bladed, swordlike spines. In the BUGHUNTERS game, the creatures’ armor reduces all attacks by six damage points and two lethality ratings. This creature is not much of a threat to alert characters in the open, but cleaning out an area infested with these creatures will be a dangerous nuisance.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).

Wiwaxia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## freyar (Apr 20, 2011)

2HD Small animal with barbed defense.  Con sounds ok, probably Str too.  Any other thoughts?  Pretty high natural AC, I guess.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Apr 21, 2011)

The bite of a Wixwaxia should probably be pretty weak--they didn't have much to speak of in the way of jaws. Barbed defense is the way to go, with maybe a little DR/- or DR/bludgeoning if you feel comfortable giving that to vermin.

Hi, by the way.

Demiurge out.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> 2HD Small animal with barbed defense.  Con sounds ok, probably Str too.  Any other thoughts?  Pretty high natural AC, I guess.




Wiwaxia probably crawled along like a spiky snail, so its Dexterity is likely to be low too. Maybe Dex 4-7 or so? That suggests a +9 or +10 NA to get the equivalent Armour Class (AC 18).


----------



## Cleon (Apr 21, 2011)

demiurge1138 said:


> The bite of a Wixwaxia should probably be pretty weak--they didn't have much to speak of in the way of jaws. Barbed defense is the way to go, with maybe a little DR/- or DR/bludgeoning if you feel comfortable giving that to vermin.
> 
> Hi, by the way.
> 
> Demiurge out.




Yes, I'm guessing we'll have it use a spike for its attack rather than its mouth.

Oh, and Hi back to ya!


----------



## Shade (Apr 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> 2HD Small animal with barbed defense.  Con sounds ok, probably Str too.  Any other thoughts?  Pretty high natural AC, I guess.




Sounds about right.



demiurge1138 said:


> The bite of a Wixwaxia should probably be pretty weak--they didn't have much to speak of in the way of jaws. Barbed defense is the way to go, with maybe a little DR/- or DR/bludgeoning if you feel comfortable giving that to vermin.




I'm comfortable with DR for vermin.  There's a few official precedents.



Cleon said:


> Wiwaxia probably crawled along like a spiky snail, so its Dexterity is likely to be low too. Maybe Dex 4-7 or so? That suggests a +9 or +10 NA to get the equivalent Armour Class (AC 18).




That'll work.



Cleon said:


> Yes, I'm guessing we'll have it use a spike for its attack rather than its mouth.




Seems reasonable.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

Time to start a Working Draft then.

EDIT: I used a couple of bits of our Porcupine conversion in the working draft.

Our idea of not giving it a bite attack doesn't match the _Dragon_ magazine article, which says "_Wiwaxia's_ toothy jaws slant slightly backward, while the toothless center bulges forward. The animal attacks by crawling forward, pressing the bulge against the target and causing the jaws to spring forward and snap shut, doing 1d8 points of damage". Should we change the spine to a bite attack?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 23, 2011)

*Wiwaxia Working Draft*

*Wiwaxia*
Small Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 5 ft. (1 squares), climb 5 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (+1 size, -2 Dex, +9 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d8)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d8)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Spines
Special Qualities: DR 2/—, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +5, Ref -2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 6, Con 15, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 3
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or cluster (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-6 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

_Description._

Stuff.

A wiwaxia is 3 feet long and weighs X pounds or more.

COMBAT

Tactics.

Spiny Defense (Ex): Melee combat with a wiwaxia is dangerous. An opponent who attacks a wiwaxia with a melee weapon that does not have reach must succeed on a DC 13 Reflex save or be struck by a spine and take *1d8* piercing damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Shade (Apr 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Should we change the spine to a bite attack?




Either way is fine with me.  Many "bite" attacks are rather abstract uses of the game term, so I think it could work here.


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Just call it a bite for simplicity.

Why not go with the full 1d10 for the spiny defense?


----------



## Cleon (Apr 26, 2011)

Shade said:


> Either way is fine with me.  Many "bite" attacks are rather abstract uses of the game term, so I think it could work here.




I'll change it to a bite then.

EDIT: *Updated*. I also changed the Advancement so it went up to Large at 5-6 HD. It just felt right.


----------



## Shade (Apr 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not go with the full 1d10 for the spiny defense?




Yeah, why not?



Cleon said:


> I also changed the Advancement so it went up to Large at 5-6 HD. It just felt right.




Yep, feels right.


----------



## freyar (Apr 26, 2011)

Done?


----------



## Shade (Apr 28, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.  We just need weight, methinks.


----------



## freyar (Apr 28, 2011)

50 lb?  Just spitballing here.


----------



## Cleon (May 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> 50 lb?  Just spitballing here.




Methinks they'd work well heavier than the standard upper limit for Small, maybe 60-80 pounds.


----------



## Cleon (May 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.  We just need weight, methinks.




Hmm, I think their underslung jaws are probably hidden beneath their body so oughtn't to be in the description. They also aren't that big compared to the size of the animal.

The "Wiwaxia are primarily scavengers, but capture smaller prey if given the chance." doesn't jibe very well with "Wiwaxia is a simple predator, crawling toward prey and biting with its large jaws."

It also wouldn't hurt to say what shape it is...

_This three-foot creature has a square-sided elliptical body covered in hard, scaly plates.  Seven  pairs of long, bladelike spines run down each side of its body. It oozes along like a slug._

Wiwaxia is a primitive marine vermin. It spends most of its time  crawling across the muddy ocean floor looking for food.

Wiwaxia are  primarily scavengers, but devour live prey if given the chance.  Wiwaxia have a backwards-slanted mouth hidden beneath their body, just in  front of their slug-like foot. Folded inside this mouth are two or three flexible rows of conical teeth, the wiwaxia can push these jaws out of its mouth to scrape away food.

A wiwaxia is 3 feet long and weighs 50 pounds or more.

COMBAT

Wiwaxia crawl toward anything that smells edible and then bites with powerful snaps of its tooth-rows.


----------



## freyar (May 2, 2011)

That looks good!


----------



## Shade (May 4, 2011)

Agreed.  Updated.  Finished?


----------



## freyar (May 5, 2011)

All done.


----------



## Shade (May 6, 2011)

*Ottoia*
FREQUENCY Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-6
ARMOR CLASS: 7, 3 (head)
MOVEMENT 2, Br 6
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spines
SIZE: G (30’ long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 975

Ottoia is a priapulid (a type of primitive worm) that is strictly carnivorous, burrowing in the sand and waiting for prospective prey to come to it. The creature senses the approach of prey by feeling the vibrations generated by its movement, and its head is several feet below the top of the hole that is its ambush point. When a victim is close enough, Ottoia extends its proboscis up to six feet and bites (doing 2d8 damage). In the AD&D game, if the beast’s attack roll is four or higher than what was needed, the victim is swallowed whole. In the BUGHUNTERS game, the creature has a Success Margin of 7 to determine if its prey has been swallowed. Swallowed victims have one chance to break free (make a Strength or a Fitness roll); anyone swallowed will take 1d10 points of damage from digestive juices until he dies. To make matters worse, these worms often live together in clusters of six, with their burrows arranged in a  circular formation, so getting hit by one Ottoia is equivalent to stepping on one mine in a minefield.  As usual, swallowed victims take half damage from any attacks on the swallower, but this shouldn’t happen too often.  Remember, the animal is completely buried under up to ten feet of sand, save for its head. Once the proboscis is withdrawn, the head presents a blank, roughly spherical front, and is covered with short spines that do 1d6 damage to any characters coming in contact with them. BUGHUNTERS PCs also remove three damage points and two lethality ratings to any attack on the head.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


----------



## freyar (May 6, 2011)

Didn't we convert another tube worm like this sometime?  We should just be able to borrow the attack from that, maybe just tweak it.


----------



## Shade (May 12, 2011)

We've done several...

Diopatra
Eunice
Glycera


----------



## freyar (May 12, 2011)

Seems like we just used their normal reach and gave them Imp Grab and Chew.  Here, maybe change that to Imp Grab and Swallow Whole.  Nothing special for the tubes, so I guess we assumed normal cover rules.


----------



## Shade (May 12, 2011)

Yeah, I seem to remember that debate/decision.


----------



## freyar (May 12, 2011)

Ok, let's stick to that.

Do we know what "spines" in the defense line is?


----------



## Shade (May 13, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoia



			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> The spines on the proboscis of Ottoia have been interpreted as teeth used to capture prey.




It sounds like its just a bite attack.  I'm not sure if they're prominent enough to count as spined defense.


----------



## freyar (May 16, 2011)

Fair enough.

This is about the same size as Eunice, which has Str 27, Dex 16, Con 20, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 5.  Damage is a little higher, which suggests possibly slightly higher Str, but HD are less.  Maybe bump Str a little but reduce Con and/or Dex to compensate?


----------



## Shade (May 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> This is about the same size as Eunice, which has Str 27, Dex 16, Con 20, Int -, Wis 9, Cha 5.  Damage is a little higher, which suggests possibly slightly higher Str, but HD are less.  Maybe bump Str a little but reduce Con and/or Dex to compensate?




Sure!  Raise Str by 2 and reduce Dex by 2?


----------



## freyar (May 18, 2011)

Works for me.  

What natural armor do we want?  Just +3, I guess, then using cover rules for the tunnel?


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Agreed.  Updated.  Finished?




Yup, it's done.


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> We've done several...
> 
> Diopatra
> Eunice
> Glycera




The Ottoia is very similar to the *Nereis* conversion we did. I'd just use a Huge version of that.


----------



## Shade (May 19, 2011)

Boosting a Nereis to Huge yields...

Str 26, Dex 9, Con 19, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 5, +6 natural

...compared to our suggestion upthread...

Str 29, Dex 14, Con 20, Int —, Wis 9, Cha 5, +6 natural (from Eunice)

That's fairly close.  How about blending the two to give us...

Str 29, Dex 12, Con 20, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 5, +6 natural


----------



## freyar (May 20, 2011)

That's fine.


----------



## Cleon (May 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> Boosting a Nereis to Huge yields...
> 
> Str 26, Dex 9, Con 19, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 5, +6 natural
> 
> ...




How about giving it the same armored head SQ we gave the Sanctacaris, to boost its AC when it retreats into its tunnel?

The AC works out at 15, midway between the original's AC 3/7 (and 2 points higher than the lower AC).

I don't mind the increased AC, it goes with the general stat inflation of 3E.


----------



## Shade (May 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> How about giving it the same armored head SQ we gave the Sanctacaris, to boost its AC when it retreats into its tunnel?
> 
> The AC works out at 15, midway between the original's AC 3/7 (and 2 points higher than the lower AC).
> 
> I don't mind the increased AC, it goes with the general stat inflation of 3E.




Yep, that sounds good.  I'll Homebrew 'em shortly.


----------



## Cleon (May 28, 2011)

Shade said:


> Yep, that sounds good.  I'll Homebrew 'em shortly.




Take your time.


----------



## Shade (May 31, 2011)

Shortly took longer than expected.  

Added.


----------



## freyar (May 31, 2011)

This is all fine, though I thought the cover bonus from the tunnel took care of the AC change.  We could note that in tactics rather than as an SQ.


----------



## Cleon (May 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> This is all fine, though I thought the cover bonus from the tunnel took care of the AC change.  We could note that in tactics rather than as an SQ.




I'd rather mention it in tactics AND keep it as a SQ.


----------



## Shade (Jun 1, 2011)

I'd be Ok with both the armored head and the cover bonus mentioned in tactics.  The two should stack since they're of different types.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'd be Ok with both the armored head and the cover bonus mentioned in tactics.  The two should stack since they're of different types.




Fine by me.


----------



## freyar (Jun 6, 2011)

Sure.


----------



## Shade (Jun 6, 2011)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x


----------



## freyar (Jun 7, 2011)

Probably CR 6.  Did we have a standardized advancement for the other tube worms?  If so, let's go with that pattern.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Probably CR 6.  Did we have a standardized advancement for the other tube worms?  If so, let's go with that pattern.




Challenge Rating 6 seems rather high, What makes it two ratings nastier than a Rhinoceros?

I was thinking more CR 4.

We tended to go for two or three size steps increase, with double HD for each. That would make it.

*Advancement:* 7-12 HD (Huge); 13-24 HD (Gargantuan); 25-48 HD (Colossal)


----------



## Shade (Jun 7, 2011)

CR 4 does seem about right.  The Advancement appeals as well.

Updated.  

Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Jun 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> CR 4 does seem about right.  The Advancement appeals as well.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Afraid not.

Mechanically, the Swallow Whole has "xdx bludgeoning and x acid".

Our _Nereis_ conversion did 1d4 crushing plus 1 acid but was Medium sized.

Increasing that to Huge suggests 1d8+9 plus 4 acid.

That seems about right for a CR4 monster, although I don't object to increasing it to 1d8+13 or 2d6+9 for the bludgeoning or 6 points of acid damage.

Methinks the description and flavour could do with some work..._A long thick worm erupts from the sand, presenting a blank, roughly  spherical head covered with short spines.  An eversible proboscis  extends from the head, seeking prey._​There should be a comma after "long". Also, how can the viewer tell it's "long" when only its head is sticking out of the sand? Also, the proboscis would be the first thing you see, since the worm shoots it out at prey.An ottoia is a carnivorous primitive worm found mostly burrowing in sandy reef bottoms.​Wouldn't "primitive carnivorous" be better, I also feel "mostly burrowing" is clumsily phrased.An ottoia lies in ambush, waiting to detect approaching prey via  tremsorsense.  It generally fights with only his its head exposed,  gaining both cover and the benefit of its armored head.  ​Apart from the "it" generally fights with "his" and the "tremsorsense" typo I think the wording could do with more polish as well as more info on how it actually fights.

How's this:

_A long proboscis erupts from the concealed burrow of a massive worm as thick as a barrel. The worm's blank, roughly spherical head is covered with short spines. Its eversible proboscis quests about in search of prey._

A ottoia is a primitive carnivorous worm that lives in burrows in the sea floor. They are mostly found in sandy reef bottoms.

The body of an ottoia is 2 to 3 feet in diameter and 30 to 50 feet in length, weighing about 5,000 pounds. 

COMBAT
 A giant ottoia lies in ambush, waiting to detect approaching prey via  tremsorsense. It attacks as soon as a creature small enough to swallow whole come within its reach. An ottoia generally fights with only its head exposed,  gaining both cover and the benefit of its armored head.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2011)

All good.  Updated.

*Anomalocaris*
FREQUENCY Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT SW 18
HIT DICE: 12
THAC0: 9
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8 (x2)/2d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Swallow whole
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
SIZE: G (80’ long)
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 6,000

Anomalocaris, the “odd shrimp”, is the largest of the creatures in the Burgess Shale, so I felt justified in making it the biggest monster on the list. Superficially, it resembles a giant squid with curved walrus tusks. Closer examination, however, shows that the .tusks. are really tentacular appendages with additional grasping arms on them, while the tail fins are far longer and broader than a squid's. Anomalocaris is a strong swimmer that aggressively chases its prey.

When attacking, Anomalocaris seizes its prey with its grasping appendages, doing 1d8 points of constriction damage with each, then shoves it into the round mouth (2d8 points of biting damage). This creature follows the swallowing rules above. This is another case where a swallowed victim won’t have to worry much about taking half damage from the attacks of would-be rescuers, because he won’t last long. It.s not a matter of digestive juices dissolving him, either. If he does not break free right away (a Strength check made at -2 or a Fitness roll at -10), he will discover to his dismay that Anomalocaris has row upon row of crushing teeth, extending all the way through the front end of the creature,s gut! Simply put, this means that the swallowed PC will take 2d8 points of biting damage for the next three turns. Then, and only then, will he be exposed to the monster’s digestive juices (1d8 points of damage per turn).

Damaging Anomalocaris won't be easy, either. The entire animal has a tough hide that, in BUGHUNTERS terms, removes two damage points and one lethality rating from each attack. Remember, too, the difficulty of using certain weapons on a opponent that is always in the water. Everyone fighting the creature may well wind up in the water, no matter how the fight begins, as Anomalocaris is more than powerful enough to flip over a small boat, even one large enough to hold an entire infantry squad or typical AD&D adventuring party.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #204 (1994).


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2011)

The "drawn-out swallow whole" ability looks fun!


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2011)

Shade said:


> All good.  Updated.
> 
> *Anomalocaris*




Isn't there already a conversion of this somewhere on enworld we can look to for inspiration?

Anyhow, the original's 80 ft. length matches 3E's Colossal size, but I'd rather make them Gargantuan, since that's a better fit to the original's 12 Hit Dice.

Rather than a "drawn out" Swallow Whole it looks more like a regular swallow whole that does a lot of crushing/slashing/piercing damage.

Statwise, I'm thinking a Purple Worm might be a useful comparison for the ability scores.

The BUGHUNTER version's tough hide suggests DR X/— and some level of fortification.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2011)

Gargantuan and DR x/- appeal.

Anomalocaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Gargantuan and DR x/- appeal.
> 
> Anomalocaris - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




What about fortification for the BUGHUNTER's lethality reduction?

I think I'll rough something out.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

The Ottoia still has "waiting to detect approaching prey via tremsorsense" in tactics.

Oh, and I should have started the description with "An ottoia is a primitive carnivorous worm", not "a ottoia".

Its special abilities seem to have gotten screwed up, they should be:

Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Armored head, darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits

I think I'll start a working draft for the Strange Shrimp.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2011)

Fixed.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

*Anomalocaris Working Draft*

*Anomalocaris*
Gargantuan Vermin (Aquatic)
Hit Dice: 12d8+84 (138 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: Swim 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (-4 size, +10 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+33
Attack: Tentacle +17 melee (2d6+12)
Full Attack: 2 tentacles +17 melee (2d6+12) and bite +12 melee (3d8+6)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., damage reduction X/—, fortification, vermin traits
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 25, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 6
Skills: Swim +20
Feats: —
Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-24 HD (Gargantuan); 25-48 HD (Colossal) 
Level Adjustment: —

_Description._

Stuff.

The body of an anomalocaris is 40 to 80 feet in length, they weigh between 20 and 150 tons or more. 

COMBAT

Grab! Crunch! Crunch!! Crunch!!!

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, an anomalocaris must hit with a  tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action  without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple  check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the  following round. 

Swallow Whole (Ex): An anomalocaris can try to swallow a grabbed opponent two  size categories smaller than itself by making a successful grapple  check. Once inside, the opponent is masticated by the multiple rows of teeth lining the anomalocaris's gizzard, taking 3d8+18 points of bludgeoning/slashing/piercing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round. A  swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or  piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 15). Once  the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed  opponent must cut its own way out. A Huge anomalocaris's interior can hold 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents. 

Skills: An anomalocarishas a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform  some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10  on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run  action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Fixed.




Good, I think it's _finally_ finished!


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2011)

The working draft looks like a good start!

We can borrow this...

Light Fortification (Ex): A cacops' bony plates protect its vital areas and makes it resistant to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks. Anytime a cacops is hit by a critical hit or a sneak attack, it has a 25% chance to resist the extra damage.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2011)

Looking good.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> The working draft looks like a good start!
> 
> We can borrow this...
> 
> Light Fortification (Ex): A cacops' bony plates protect its vital areas and makes it resistant to extra damage from critical hits and sneak attacks. Anytime a cacops is hit by a critical hit or a sneak attack, it has a 25% chance to resist the extra damage.




Yes, that's the sort of thing I was going for (although I was thinking of the version I used for the Pangolin).

Is 25% enough? Do we want to increase it to 50%?

Should a Colossal specimen have better Fortification?


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## Shade (Jun 14, 2011)

I'd be OK with increasing it to 50%, but don't see any need for it to improve with size.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2011)

I don't know BUGHUNTERS enough to comment on light vs somewhat-less-than-moderate fortification, so whichever.  I agree with Shade that it doesn't need to change with size.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> I don't know BUGHUNTERS enough to comment on light vs somewhat-less-than-moderate fortification, so whichever.  I agree with Shade that it doesn't need to change with size.




I think a 25% fortification ought to be enough. Most of the *BUGHUNTER* creatures with armoured shells in the *Dragon 204* article (e.g. _Sanctacaris_ and _Wiwaxia_) have 2 levels of lethality reduction and the _Anomalocaris_ only has 1 level.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2011)

Added to Homebrews.



> Everyone fighting the creature may well wind up in the water, no matter how the fight begins, as Anomalocaris is more than powerful enough to flip over a small boat, even one large enough to hold an entire infantry squad or typical AD&D adventuring party.




Should we add a capsize mechanic?

Capsize (Ex): A submerged dragon turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2011)

I was also thinking about adding capsize.  So yes.    And that may just be the right size for the vessels, too.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2011)

Updated.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Should we add a capsize mechanic?
> 
> Capsize (Ex): A submerged dragon turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long.




Sure, why not!


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.




Shouldn't the SQ line have "light fortification" rather than just "fortification"?


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Shouldn't the SQ line have "light fortification" rather than just "fortification"?



Yup.  Stats look about done, though.


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yup.  Stats look about done, though.




It needs a value for its Damage Reduction.

DR 3/— or DR 4/—?

It's description and tactics need some work, the "These "tusks" are really tentacular appendages with additional grasping  arms on them, making it a strong swimmer that aggressively chases its  prey." bit doesn't make any sense, for a start.

Also, 80 feet is very big for Gargantuan, which is why I put a "40 to 80 feet" in the working draft. If you'd rather only mention the original's 80' in the entry, I'd go for:

An anomalocatis's body is up to 80 feet long, they weigh from 20 tons to 150 tons or more.

We don't need to list a weight if we don't want to.

How's this:

_An enormous creature swims into view. Big as a longship, its flattened torpedo-shaped body tapers to a fanlike tail. A row of overlapping finlike lobes run down each flank, undulating in concert with its tail to drive the beast through the water. Its broad head sports two semi-globular eyes on short stalks and what appear to be a pair of giant, walrus-like tusks. A second look reveals these "tusks" to be tentacle-like grasping appendages lined with spiky protrusions. These appendages flex inwards towards a circular mouth on the underside of the creature's head. Said mouth irises in and out, clashing together a ring of jagged teeth; more rings of teeth lie farther down the creature’s throat, ready to grind up anything it swallows._

Anomalocaris, or "odd shrimp", somewhat resembles a giant squid with curved walrus tusks. By far the largest creature in the primeval oceans it calls home, anomalocaris is a free-swimming predator that had no  competitors apart from other anomalocaris.

An anomalocatis's body is up to 80 feet long, their weight ranges from 20 tons to 150 tons or more.

*COMBAT*
An anomalocaris views any creature small enough to swallow as a potential meal. Anomalocaris aggressively chase prey, seizing victims in its pseudo-tusks and transferring them to its mouth to be swallowed and ground up by its toothy gullet.

An anomalocaris will attack prey on the surface as well as underwater. They may mistake ships for rival anomalocaris and attack them, which can result in vessels being capsized by an anomalocaris surfacing beneath them. Any creatures thrown in the water when their craft capsizes will usually be attacked by the anomalocaris that "defeated" its perceived rival.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2011)

Round up to DR 5/- or even DR 10/-.

The rest looks great!


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## Cleon (Jun 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Round up to DR 5/- or even DR 10/-.
> 
> The rest looks great!




I'm reluctant to put it higher than 6/- or so.


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2011)

The revised description looks fantastic!  

5/- appeals.   Updated.

Finished?


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## Cleon (Jun 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> The revised description looks fantastic!
> 
> 5/- appeals.   Updated.
> 
> Finished?




Yup, looks done to me.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

Thus ends that article.  

This looks like two conversions in one...

*SLOTH, GROUND*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 9”
HIT DICE: 10 (8)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12/2-12 (2-8/2-8)

These massive creatures lived in the Pleistocene and even survived into Recent times. Although herbivorous, ground sloths were armed with huge claws. Megatherium was the largest such creature (its statistics are given above), but the red-haired Mylodon was the longest surviving one, being hunted by tribesmen in South America (its statistics are in parentheses above). Ground sloths feed heavily on trees and shrubs, moving constantly (if slowly) in search of food. Undoubtedly, cave men found them to be easy prey. Megatherium was almost 20’ long and weighed three tons.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).


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## Mortis (Jun 22, 2011)

Shade said:


> Megatherium



Isn't/wasn't it in the Fiend Folio. Or am I mixing my editions up?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Isn't/wasn't it in the Fiend Folio. Or am I mixing my editions up?




D'oh!   You are correct.  It looks like just the Mylodon needs converting.


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## Mortis (Jun 22, 2011)

Dug out the Fiend Folio

It's megatherium is 20 foot long and Huge size.

Checking wikipedia the mylodon is 10 foot long.

I guess we could reduce the FF critter by a size category (and make sure it's 3.5E compliant).

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2011)

Here's how a downsized Megatherium looks...

*Mylodon*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 8d8+40 (76 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 23 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+14
Attack: Claw +10 melee (2d3+4)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (2d3+4) and bite +4 melee (1d8+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pin down, trample 2d6+6
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 15, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +9
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (claw)
Environment: Any forest, hill, or plains
Organization: Solitary or family (2-4)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 9-13 HD (Large); 14-16 HD (Huge); 17-24 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

Improved Grab (Ex): If a mylodon hits an opponent that is at least one size category smaller than itself with a claw attack, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it can pin down the opponent on its next successful grapple check. 

Pin Down (Ex): A mylodon can make a grapple check against an already grappled opponent in an attempt to pin it down. If successful, the opponent is pinned down beneath the mylodon's claw. Pinned opponents take trample damage each round they are pinned, including the round in which the pin is established.

Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 18. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## Mortis (Jun 22, 2011)

I like it except for the natural armour bonus. Seems a bit high to me, I'd favour something around +6 or +8.

I'd drop Con to 18 or 19 too.

CR 6 feels about right.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Thus ends that article.




I'm not happy leaving the _Opabinia_ as Shade's Daelyr-warped Aberration from _Dragon 348_, but I guess doing a Vermin version of it might be treading on some OGL toes too hard.

EDIT: I got bored and statted up my own take on the Opabinia.

See below for details.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

I've just reviewed out Prehistoric Vermin and there's a couple of problems with the *Yohoia*.

First, there's a minor error in the Yohoia's Advancement:

*Advancement:* 3-5 HD (Medium); 6-9 HD (Large)

Yohoia starts with 3 Hit Dice, so it ought to be:

*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)

Second, the Yohoia has "camouflage" listed in its SQ, but no such ability in its Combat entry. We replaced it with some special text in its Skills.

Better cut out the Camouflage:

Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits, water dependency


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Mortis said:


> I like it except for the natural armour bonus. Seems a bit high to me, I'd favour something around +6 or +8.
> 
> I'd drop Con to 18 or 19 too.
> 
> ...




I'm fine with the Constitution but that armour class definitely needs lowering.

Giant Sloths have notoriously tough skin, so I'd be OK with natural armour around +8 to +10.

Indeed, I'd fancy giving them Damage Reduction as well.

Dex 15 and 40 ft. speed seems too high, they seem rather ungainly creatures.

Maybe Dex 13, 30 ft. and NA +10? Possibly DR 4/—?

CR 6 might be a tad too high, maybe 5 would be better? Hmm, they do have trample though. I'll have to think about it some more...


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

*Opabinia Homebrew*

*Opabinia*
Medium Vermin (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+6 (19 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 10 ft.
*Armor Class:* 14 (+4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+3
*Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6+4)
*Full Attack:* Bite +5 melee (1d6+4)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft. (bite 10 ft.)
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, worry 1d6+4
*Special Qualities:* All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, vermin traits, water dependency
*Saves:* Fort +5, Ref +1, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* Hide +0*, Search +4, Spot +4, Swim +9
*Feats:* —
*Environment:* Temperate or warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or colony (2-4)
*Challenge Rating:* 1
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This bizarre creature has body life an elongated woodlouse, five bulbous eyes on its head, and a long, tentacle-like proboscis that ends in a crab-like claw._

Opabinia is a type of prehistoric arthropod. They are mainly passive hunters, burying themselves in mud and grabbing passing prey with their prehensile proboscis, but will also wander about the sea floor to scavenge for a meal. Opabinia occasionally venture out of water to beachcomb for food.

A typical opabinia is 5 feet long (not including its proboscis, which can stretch up to 8 feet) and weighs 200 pounds.

*COMBAT*
An opabinia buries itself in mud, with only its 5 eyes and claw-tip above the silt, then waits to ambush passing prey. As soon as it senses an edible victim, the opabinia tries to grab it with its clawed proboscis and shake and tear its victim to death. They only attack active prey smaller than themselves, but will feed off larger creatures that are too seriously injured to offer much resistance. Opabinia will bite anything that threatens them, fighting to the death.

*All-Around Vision (Ex):* An opabinia’s five globular eyes gives it a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks, and they can't be flanked.

*Extended Reach (Ex):* The mouth of an opabinia sits on a long trunk, granting its bite attack a 10 ft. reach (15 ft. for a Large opabinia).

*Improved Grab (Ex):* In order to use this ability, an opabinia must hit a Small or smaller creature with its bite attack. It can then make a grapple check as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it gets a hold, it can make worry attacks.

*Worry (Ex):* An opabinia shakes opponents grabbed in its jaws, dealing 1d6+4 damage every round it maintains the grapple.

*Skills:* An opabinia has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*An opabinia gains a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when it is lying against mud. Further, an opabinia can bury itself in silt or mud with only its eyes and claws showing, gaining a +10 cover bonus on Hide checks.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here's how a downsized Megatherium looks...
> 
> *Mylodon*
> Special Attacks: Improved grab, pin down, trample 2d6+6




Shouldn't the Trample be 1d10+6, since the Fiend Folio _Megatherium_ has a 2d8+12 trample?


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Maybe Dex 13, 30 ft. and NA +10? Possibly DR 4/—?




I like the revised Dex, speed and NA, but not DR for them.  Especially since the larger megatherium lacks it.



Cleon said:


> Shouldn't the Trample be 1d10+6, since the Fiend Folio _Megatherium_ has a 2d8+12 trample?




Yep, probably.

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Jun 25, 2011)

Shade said:


> I like the revised Dex, speed and NA, but not DR for them.  Especially since the larger megatherium lacks it.




I can put up with the lack of DR. 

They look done apart from some flavour text.


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## freyar (Jun 26, 2011)

Would it make sense to cut the advancement down a bit, since they're pretty much just a down-sized version of another critter?

Other than that, the stats seem done.  

Paraphrasing tactics from the megatherium:

When pressed into combat, a mylodon charges into battle, trampling as many opponents as possible.  Once surrounded, it will pin down its nearest foe while clawing at other enemies.


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## Cleon (Jun 26, 2011)

freyar said:


> Would it make sense to cut the advancement down a bit, since they're pretty much just a down-sized version of another critter?




Yes, I'd go for the same Advancement as the SRD Rhinoceros - 9-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge).


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2011)

Shade said:


> but not DR for them.  Especially since the larger megatherium lacks it.



Hmm... I''m tempted to give them DR 4/steel in Hollow World. That way the natives wooden/bone/bronze weapons would have a job getting through the hide but 'new technology' would have a better chance.

Of course, I'd then have to add it to their large cousin. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Hmm... I''m tempted to give them DR 4/steel in Hollow World. That way the natives wooden/bone/bronze weapons would have a job getting through the hide but 'new technology' would have a better chance.




That's a bit iffy. Material based DR is for creatures with a particular vulnerability to a material, like a werewolf's susceptibility to silver weapons.

DR 4/steel would mean the Sloth gets that DR against weapons of harder materials, such as mithral or adamantine!

If you want to make it resistant to softer materials you'd need something equivalent to "DR/hardness 10+", so wood (hardness 5) or stone (hardness 8) don't cut it.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2011)

Not such a fan of DR for this one myself.  Unless we really want to say its hide is thick enough it gets DR X/-.


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Not such a fan of DR for this one myself.  Unless we really want to say its hide is thick enough it gets DR X/-.




I'd like to give it some X/- but the Fiend Folio Megatherium doesn't have it, so it is easier to just drop the idea.


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## freyar (Jun 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd like to give it some X/- but the Fiend Folio Megatherium doesn't have it, so it is easier to just drop the idea.



Yes, I have to agree with that.


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, I have to agree with that.




So, we've just got the question of changing the Advancement (I proposed a Rhino's 9-12 HD (Large); 13-24 HD (Huge) for them) and setting the Challenge Rating.

CR wise it's not that bad, maybe a 6?

Hold on, shouldn't its claw damage be 1d6+4? A 2d4 weapon usually downsizes to 1d6, not 2d3.


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2011)

That advancement is ok, CR 6 seems alright, and I agree on the claw damage.


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## Mortis (Jun 29, 2011)

Cleon said:


> That's a bit iffy. Material based DR is for creatures with a particular vulnerability to a material, like a werewolf's susceptibility to silver weapons.



True, and I don't want to sidetrack the discussion. It was a fleeting thought that doesn't really stand upto scrutiny. Now if D&D had a system where armour reduced damage suffered...

...we'd have a completely different game system (yes I know D&D and other d20 variants have offered such systems in the past - Mongoose's Conan for one).

Anyway back to our regular programming.

Rhino advance and a 1d6 claw damage look fine.
And I guess I'll stick with CR 6.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2011)

Mortis said:


> True, and I don't want to sidetrack the discussion. It was a fleeting thought that doesn't really stand upto scrutiny. Now if D&D had a system where armour reduced damage suffered...
> 
> ...we'd have a completely different game system (yes I know D&D and other d20 variants have offered such systems in the past - Mongoose's Conan for one).




Agreed. I wouldn't want to divert my laser-like focus.

Now Conan, I was distressed to hear the allegations about the rules problems its original edition had. It is so much prettier than the Hyborian edition, but I didn't want to buy a game with mechanical issues.

What was that? Side tracking you say? I don't know what you mean... 



Mortis said:


> Rhino advance and a 1d6 claw damage look fine.
> And I guess I'll stick with CR 6.




In that case I think we're about done with it.

Hmm, since it's a downscaled Giant Ground Sloth, does that make it a Mini-Megatherium?


----------



## Shade (Jun 30, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hold on, shouldn't its claw damage be 1d6+4? A 2d4 weapon usually downsizes to 1d6, not 2d3.




I just did that to retain the odd damage dice.  I'm perfectly content with 1d6, though.



			
				Cleon said:
			
		

> Hmm, since it's a downscaled Giant Ground Sloth, does that make it a Mini-Megatherium?




Indeed! 

Updated.  Finished?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> I just did that to retain the odd damage dice.  I'm perfectly content with 1d6, though.
> 
> Indeed!
> 
> Updated.  Finished?





 200 kilos is too light for a 3 metre tall ground sloth. That's probably the weight of an average-sized specimen considerably smaller than the 10 foot maximum height it goes "up to". I've seen skeletons of ground sloths that were shorter than a man, albeit much stockier. Since we're talking a creature with the Str and HD of a Rhinoceros, it's presumably one of the bigger Mylodontid sloths, just not elephant-sized like the largest _Megatherium_.

A _Megatherium_ can reach 6000 pounds if I remember correctly. Assuming that's what the 20 foot-long, 15-foot tall *Fiend Folio* version weighs, a 10 foot tall sloth should be about 2500 pounds.

Let's see what info I can find...

According to the San Diego Zoo website's *handy facts sheet*, a large ground sloth was about as big as a bison, and a small one was the size of a brown bear.

Hmm, I'm thinking we could stat up the smaller ground sloths as a Medium sized creature.

Oh, by the way, did you know some ground sloths *dug burrows* and there were also *marine species*?

I also don't much care for the "wickedly sharp" claws. They're more like picks than razors.

How's this:

*Ground Sloth (Mylodon)*
_This large, red-haired sloth has __powerful forelegs with huge,__ curved claws._

Mylodons are giant ground sloths related to the larger _Megatherium_. Its diet consists of trees and shrubs, and it grazes mostly in open areas. Some Mylodons use their powerful claws to dig out burrows, such burrows can be 7 feet wide, 5 feet high up to 100 feet long.

This entry describes the larger varieties of mylodon. These bison-sized animals weigh around 2500 pounds  and stand about 10 feet tall when walking on their hind legs, or about 4  feet tall and 13 feet long when on all fours. See lesser ground sloths, below, for details of the smaller species.

*Ground Sloth, Lesser*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+16 (26 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+5
Attack: Claw +5 melee (1d4+2)
Full Attack: 2 claws +5 melee (1d4+2) and bite +0 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pin down
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +5, Will +2
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +6, Spot +7
Feats: Alertness, Great Fortitude
Environment: Any forest, hill, or plains
Organization: Solitary or family (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: —

About the size of a black bear, lesser ground sloths are the smallest cousins of the giant ground sloth _Megatherium_. About 8 feet long and 2½ feet tall when walking on all fours, or 6 feet tall when walking upright, a lesser ground sloth usually weighs 400 to 500 pounds.

*Giant Marine Sloth*
_Thalassocnus _was a variety of giant sloth that had taken to see sea to graze on seaweed. A giant marine sloths' limbs are adapted for the water, this makes them good swimmers but prevents _Thalassocnus _making trample attacks. They have the same stats as a normal Mylodon ground sloth, except for the following changes:

Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), swim 30 ft.
 Special Attacks: Improved grab, pin down
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., hold breath, low-light vision, scent
Skills: Listen +8, Spot +9, Swim +12
Environment: Warm aquatic
Challenge Rating: 5

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A giant marine sloth can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning. 

*Skills:* A giant marine sloth has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## freyar (Jul 4, 2011)

Looks good for a rather substantial underbar!


----------



## Cleon (Jul 5, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks good for a rather substantial underbar!




Are we done then?


----------



## freyar (Jul 5, 2011)

I think so, if everyone's satisfied.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> I think so, if everyone's satisfied.



I'd say so.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Jul 6, 2011)

What's next then?

Glancing through Dragon #137's _*Into the Age of Mammals*_ it looks like we've done most of them already.

Have we done _Zeuglodon _yet? Maybe under its correct name of _Basilosaurus_?


----------



## Shade (Jul 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What's next then?
> 
> Glancing through Dragon #137's _*Into the Age of Mammals*_ it looks like we've done most of them already.
> 
> Have we done _Zeuglodon _yet? Maybe under its correct name of _Basilosaurus_?




Zeuglodon is in _Frostburn_, and it's quite impressive.   I think I killed at least one PC with one of 'em.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Zeuglodon is in _Frostburn_, and it's quite impressive.   I think I killed at least one PC with one of 'em.




Dang it, I'd forgotten it was in _*Frostburn*_. I'd remembered all the other prehistoric mammals in that book. Including _Glyptodon_, who's presence in _*Frostburn*_ never seemed right to me - they didn't live in frozen regions!

Getting back to the topic at hand, are there any creatures from _*Into the Age of Mammals*_ that haven't been converted yet?


----------



## Shade (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't think we've done this one:

*CATTLE (Auroch)*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 2-5
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 6
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 horns, or 1 charge with trample
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6, or 3-18 and 1-6/1-6
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-

Aurochs are slightly larger and tougher versions of the wild cattle found in the Monster Manual. Aurochs in the real world have only recently become extinct (in the 17th century in Europe), once living in temperate forests and meadows.

Aurochs may be domesticated by farmers in some campaigns. Some bulls measured 7' high at the shoulder, and aurochs in general were much more fierce and agile than normal cattle. For game purposes, treat auroch cows as buffalo and young adults as normal cattle. The statistics given are for auroch males.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I don't think we've done this one:
> 
> *CATTLE (Auroch)*




I'm game!

It's basically a Bison with a trample attack, shouldn't take long.

Incidentally, I've already got a homebrew version of the Aurochs sitting on my harddrive somewhere. Be interesting to see how it differs from what we come up with collaboratively.

So, before we start, which singular/plural are we using: auroch/aurochs, aurochs/aurochses or aurochs/aurochsen.

The first seems the most popular, the second is acceptable, and the third cleaves to the original Germanic/Olde Worlde version but is a bit dubious for modern English.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, before we start, which singular/plural are we using: auroch/aurochs, aurochs/aurochses or aurochs/aurochsen.
> 
> The first seems the most popular, the second is acceptable, and the third cleaves to the original Germanic/Olde Worlde version but is a bit dubious for modern English.



Although I quite like the third option, I guess we'll settle on the first. I don't like the middle one.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Although I quite like the third option, I guess we'll settle on the first. I don't like the middle one.




My thoughts exactly.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 14, 2011)

I've just come across a 3.0 version of the auroch in Monkeygod's 'From Stone to Steel'. It's a guide about weapons and armour but has some animals (war dog, auroch, bull;, gazelle, giraffe, hippo, and ostrich). in the section about Roman gladiators.

It's also open content as far as I can tell - could be converted to 3.5 fairly easily.

Plus being the Mystara fan that I am, I should also mention the two versions on the Vaults of Pandius (1, 2).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Shade said:


> My thoughts exactly.




Seems we're all of a mind to use an auroch/many aurochs then.


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

Mortis said:


> I've just come across a 3.0 version of the auroch in Monkeygod's 'From Stone to Steel'. It's a guide about weapons and armour but has some animals (war dog, auroch, bull;, gazelle, giraffe, hippo, and ostrich). in the section about Roman gladiators.
> 
> It's also open content as far as I can tell - could be converted to 3.5 fairly easily.




If it's Open then should you post it here?



Mortis said:


> Plus being the Mystara fan that I am, I should also mention the two versions on the Vaults of Pandius (1, 2).
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




Yes, I wondered about referring to those. The Shaggy Auroch isn't particularly relevant, since it's a smaller, domesticated version.


----------



## freyar (Jul 14, 2011)

Note that Paizo also has an auroch (I believe 3.5 in the Pathfinder Chronicles setting and PFRPG in their SRD).  So this is well-trodden ground.

Anyway, shall we get started?


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Note that Paizo also has an auroch (I believe 3.5 in the Pathfinder Chronicles setting and PFRPG in their SRD).  So this is well-trodden ground.
> 
> Anyway, shall we get started?




Yes, I think we shall.  

Do as Cleon suggested upthread, and start with a bison and add trample?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Note that Paizo also has an auroch (I believe 3.5 in the Pathfinder Chronicles setting and PFRPG in their SRD).  So this is well-trodden ground.




Yes, it's *here*.

They made it a lot less nasty than the Bison, I don't think they did their research!



freyar said:


> Anyway, shall we get started?




Be my guest...


----------



## Shade (Jul 14, 2011)

Here's a bison + trample.  What else shall we change?

*Aurochs*
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 5d8+15 (37 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 13 (–1 size, +4 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Full Attack: Gore +8 melee (1d8+9)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Stampede, trample xdx+9
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
Skills: Listen +7, Spot +5
Feats: Alertness, Endurance
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary or herd (6–30)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 6–7 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: --

Stampede (Ex): A frightened herd of bison flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five bison in the herd (Reflex DC 18 half ). The save DC is Strength-based.

Trample (Ex): Reflex half DC 18. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2011)

We need to change the bison to aurochs in stampede.

Is it worth fiddling with ability scores any?


----------



## Cleon (Jul 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> Here's a bison + trample.  What else shall we change?




I think I'll hold off any suggestions, otherwise it'll just end up like my Homebrew version.

I'm hoping for a different take on them although, frankly, there isn't that much room for variation in a Bison.


----------



## freyar (Jul 18, 2011)

Well, is there any justification for boosting Str or Con?  Or the reverse?


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, is there any justification for boosting Str or Con?  Or the reverse?




I wonder the same thing...


----------



## Mortis (Jul 20, 2011)

Cleon said:


> If it's Open then should you post it here?




Well here it is anyway. (remember it's 3.0)

*Auroch*
*Large Animal*
*Hit Dice:* 6d8+18 (45 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 40 ft
*AC:* 13 (-1 Size, +4 natural)
*Attacks:* Gore +8 melee
*Damage:* Gore 2d6+6
*Face/Reach:* 5 ft. by 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Stampede
*Special Qualities:* Scent
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 18, Dex 10, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4
*Skills:* Listen +8, Spot +5
*Feat:* Spirited Charge
*Climate/Terrain:* Temperate Plains
*Organization:* Solitary, Herd (6–30)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always Neutral
*Advancement:* 6–7 HD (Large)

Related to the bison and the modern cow, these impressive creatures were driven to edge of extinction due to their popularity in the Venatones. Large shaggy beasts with great horns that could cause fearsome damage, these lords of the plains were finally hunted to extinction some time in the 17th century.

*Combat*
An Auroch is a normally passive creature, although the bulls are very territorial and protective of their cows. In the arena Aurochs were often whipped, prodded, or burned in order to drive them into a state of anger. Aurochs prefer to gore enemies on their horns, and will often make charging runs towards any antagonist.
*Stampede (Ex):* A frightened herd of Aurochs flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of size Large or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five aurochs in the herd. A successful Reflex save (DC 16) halves the damage.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Well here it is anyway. (remember it's 3.0)
> 
> *Auroch*
> *Large Animal*
> ...




Thanks!

Let's see... seems pretty much the same as the SRD Bison.

Hold on, Spirited Charge? *Spirited Charge!*

What on earth!!

Ignoring the fact it has none of the prerequisites, the aurochs *would have to be riding a mount *to use that feat!



> Benefit: *When mounted* and using the charge action, the character deals double damage with a melee weapon (or triple damage with a lance).




What are Monkeygod's aurochs supposed to be riding?

Elephants?

Other, larger aurochs?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What are Monkeygod's aurochs supposed to be riding?
> 
> Elephants?
> 
> Other, larger aurochs?




Now that's a visual!


----------



## Mortis (Jul 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Hold on, Spirited Charge? *Spirited Charge!*



Ah, but these are for the arenas of Rome - they've obviously been trained as cavalry. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Jul 22, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Ah, but these are for the arenas of Rome - they've obviously been trained as cavalry.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




Well in that case I feel sorry for the horses. 

Getting back to Shade's post #313 do you fancy any alterations to it?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 26, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Getting back to Shade's post #313 do you fancy any alterations to it?



Don't you mean 322? 

I'd like to bump it up one HD to 6, given that that's what the original had.

It also needs a value for the trample damage.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Jul 27, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Don't you mean 322?




Yes I do.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2011)

Added to Homebrews, with increase to 6 HD.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews, with increase to 6 HD.




What additional feat do you fancy?

The stampede should have aurochs, not bison, and the DC ought to be 19.


----------



## Shade (Aug 5, 2011)

Cleon said:


> What additional feat do you fancy?




Diehard?   Great Fortitude?



Cleon said:


> The stampede should have aurochs, not bison, and the DC ought to be 19.




Fixed.  Suggested trample damage?


----------



## freyar (Aug 5, 2011)

Diehard sounds fun.
1d8 trample?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> Diehard?   Great Fortitude?




Either of those would work for me.



Shade said:


> Fixed.  Suggested trample damage?




I wouldn't want to unfairly influence you.


----------



## Shade (Aug 8, 2011)

OK, it appears Diehard is the winner.

1d8 trample seems a bit low.   An elephant is 2d8.  Downsizing that to Large would give 1d10.  Seem reasonable?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> OK, it appears Diehard is the winner.
> 
> 1d8 trample seems a bit low.   An elephant is 2d8.  Downsizing that to Large would give 1d10.  Seem reasonable?




Well I find it reasonable enough.


----------



## Shade (Aug 9, 2011)

Updated.

CR 3 (one higher than bison)?

Advancement: 7-8 HD (Large)?
Bison is 6–7 HD (Large)


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> CR 3 (one higher than bison)?
> 
> ...




Well it depends whether you think Trample is worth a CR boost. Most creatures with Trample have a higher CR, so I guess the aurochs should too...


----------



## freyar (Aug 10, 2011)

It has an extra HD, too.  Go for CR 3.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2011)

Updated.  Help me fill out the flavor text.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Help me fill out the flavor text.




This is what I used for my own conversion, feel free to steal borrow some of it:

Unlike most breeds of modern cattle, Aurochs had lyre-shaped horns set at a forward angle, a pale stripe down the spine, and sexual dimorphism of coat color. Males were black with a pale eel stripe called a "finching" down the spine, while females and calves were reddish. Aurochs reputedly had very aggressive temperaments.

1500-2500 pounds, 10-12 feet long and 5½-7 feet tall.

*Combat*
Aurochs normally avoid confrontations, but often charge when provoked or threatened.


----------



## Shade (Aug 11, 2011)

I only stole borrowed the weight.  

Updated.

Finished?  If so, care to post the Cleon Original (TM) version?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Finished?  If so, care to post the Cleon Original (TM) version?




Sure:

*Aurochs **[Cleon Homebrew]*

*Aurochs, Cow*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice: *5d8+15 (37 hp)
*Initiative: *+1
*Speed: *40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class: *14 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+3/+14
*Attack: *Gore +9 melee (2d6+10/19-20)
*Full Attack: *Gore +9 melee (2d6+10/19-20)
*Space/Reach: *10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks: *Powerful charge 3d6+14, stampede, trample 1d6+6
*Special Qualities: *Low-light vision, scent
*Saves: *Fort +7, Ref +5, Will +1
*Abilities: *Str 24, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 5
*Skills: *Listen +7, Spot +5
*Feats: *Alertness, Endurance
*Environment: *Temperate forests
*Organization: *Solitary or herd (6-30)
*Challenge Rating: *2
*Treasure: *None
*Alignment: *Always neutral
*Advancement: *6-7 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment: *—

*Aurochs, Bull*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice: *6d8+18 (45 hp)
*Initiative: *+1
*Speed: *40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class: *14 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+4/+16
*Attack: *Gore +11 melee (2d6+12/19-20)
*Full Attack: *Gore +11 melee (2d6+12/19-20)
*Space/Reach: *10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks: *Powerful charge 3d6+16, stampede, trample 1d8+8
*Special Qualities: *Low-light vision, scent
*Saves: *Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities: *Str 26, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 5
*Skills: *Listen +7, Spot +6
*Feats: *Alertness, Endurance, Power Attack
*Environment: *Temperate forests
*Organization: *Solitary or herd (6-30)
*Challenge Rating: *3
*Treasure: *None
*Alignment: *Always neutral
*Advancement: *7-9 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment: *—

Unlike most breeds of modern cattle, Aurochs had lyre-shaped horns set at a forward angle, a pale stripe down the spine, and sexual dimorphism of coat color. Males were black with a pale eel stripe called a "finching" down the spine, while females and calves were reddish. Aurochs reputedly had very aggressive temperaments.

1500-2500 pounds, 10-12 feet long and 5½-7 feet tall.

*Combat*
Aurochs normally avoid confrontations, but often charge when provoked or threatened.

*Powerful Charge (Ex): *An aurochs’ forward-pointing horns do an additional 1d6 damage plus double their Strength bonus on a charge attack - 3d6+14 for cow aurochs, 3d6+16 for bulls.

*Stampede (Ex): *A frightened herd of aurochs flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five aurochs in the herd (Reflex DC 21 half, maximum damage 8d12). The save DC is Strength-based.

*Trample (Ex): *Reflex half DC 19 (cows) or 21 (bulls). The save DC is Strength-based.

*Note: *The above stats are probably slightly exaggerated. This was deliberately, to reflect legends of the aurochs' ferocity and strength.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I only stole borrowed the weight.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Finished?  If so, care to post the Cleon Original (TM) version?




Oh, and I do think the Shade "pales in comparison to my version" is finished.


----------



## Shade (Aug 15, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Oh, and I do think the Shade "pales in comparison to my version" is finished.




Hey, it was a group effort to pale in comparison!


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> Hey, it was a group effort to pale in comparison!




My apologies. I wouldn't want to wrongly deny your colleagues of paling recognition.


----------



## Shade (Aug 25, 2011)

Is this worthy of conversion?

PROTOCERATID
These deerlike animals were noted for their multiplicity of horns. Protoceras of the Oligocene had six spike horns: two on the nose, two above the eyes, and two back of the ears. Syndyoceras of the Miocene had four spike horns: two on the nose and two above the eyes. Synthetoceras, the oddest of all, had two spike horns above the eyes and one long Y-shaped horn on the nose. Treat all these creatures as stags, except that each may make two separate horn attacks. The damage done is as follows:

Protoceratid Damage
Protoceras 2-5/2-5
Syndyoceras 1-4/1-4
Synthetoceras 2-5/1-6


----------



## freyar (Aug 26, 2011)

Do we have a deer to start with?  Maybe make them dire and add extra attacks?


----------



## Shade (Aug 26, 2011)

Well, let's see...

There's a deer and elk in _Silver Marches_.   An alternative elk appears in Dragon #333.

We did a dire stag and Eucladoceros as well.


----------



## freyar (Aug 26, 2011)

Well, if we do these, let's just take the dire stag, add an extra gore or two, and fiddle around the margins.  Is that worth it?


----------



## Cleon (Aug 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> Well, if we do these, let's just take the dire stag, add an extra gore or two, and fiddle around the margins.  Is that worth it?




I didn't think you liked giving animals multiple horn/gore attacks, considering the fuss you make about not taking that approach for that prehistoric warthog conversion we did.

Anyhow, it seems no less deserving of a conversion than most of the Wild Canids we did.

I'm not fussed either way, so I'll leave it to you two to fight it out.


----------



## freyar (Aug 30, 2011)

Hmm, can't even remember the warthog.  Did the original creature mention multiple attacks?  Anyway, I'm at the point of just looking for differentiation.  We could boost the damage or something instead.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, can't even remember the warthog.  Did the original creature mention multiple attacks?  Anyway, I'm at the point of just looking for differentiation.  We could boost the damage or something instead.




It was the *Enworld conversion* of the _Metridiochoerus_ 'Giant Warthog' from _Dragon #167_. The original AD&D creature had a 2-12/2-12 attack with a pair of tusks, which became a single 2d6 gore when we converted it.

Incidentally, normal-sized Warthogs also get two attacks (2-8/2-8) in AD&D.

Anyhow, getting back to the Protoceratids. It says to use the stats of a Stag, except for damage. An AD&D Wild Stag does 1-3/1-3 with its hooves and 2-8 with its horns, so _Protoceras_ and _Synthetoceras_ do 2 points more damage with their horns (average 7 vs 5) but _Syndyoceras_ does the same (except with two 1d4 attacks instead of one 2d4 attack).

I think it'd be easier just giving the first two a one-step damage boost and using regular Stag stats for _Syndyoceras_.


----------



## Shade (Sep 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I think it'd be easier just giving the first two a one-step damage boost and using regular Stag stats for _Syndyoceras_.




Agreed.  1e had some weird facing concepts for some monsters, where if they possessed more than one long stabbing/slashing implement, they often had multiple attacks (despite the fact that they originated from the same body part).  I guess someone just really liked the idea of a critter goring a separate foe on each tusk, although that would generally be pretty difficult to pull off.


----------



## freyar (Sep 2, 2011)

Sounds like a plan, in that case.  Is there anything else to change, other than telling people to use Imp Nat Attack as a substitute feat?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 3, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds like a plan, in that case.  Is there anything else to change, other than telling people to use Imp Nat Attack as a substitute feat?




Probably not.

These stats are probably way exaggerated. _Protoceras_ wasn't that big (about fallow deer size) and its horns were probably blunt and skin-covered like a giraffe's. In real life they were probably _less_ dangerous than a male red deer (which is pretty much what a D&D Stag is).

Well I suppose it could be a Dire Protoceras...


----------



## freyar (Sep 6, 2011)

Ok, let's just drop these.  If we need an "official conversion," we can change skills and feats around a little.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> Ok, let's just drop these.  If we need an "official conversion," we can change skills and feats around a little.




Well I don't mind converting them if Shade wants to, but skipping them would suit me as well.


----------



## Shade (Sep 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well I don't mind converting them if Shade wants to, but skipping them would suit me as well.




Skipping 'em suits me.  Any other prehistoric critters still out there, or has this thread experienced an extinction event?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> Skipping 'em suits me.  Any other prehistoric critters still out there, or has this thread experienced an extinction event?




Do we have a list?

Even if there are no more AD&D or BECMI paleontological beasties left to convert, there are presumably plenty that never had D&D stats at all.


----------



## Shade (Sep 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Do we have a list?
> 
> Even if there are no more AD&D or BECMI paleontological beasties left to convert, there are presumably plenty that never had D&D stats at all.




An unconverted list?   No, not anymore, since it's finished.  

A list of all prehistoric creatures?   I don't have one.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 13, 2011)

Shade said:


> An unconverted list?   No, not anymore, since it's finished.




Or, rather, extinct.



Shade said:


> A list of all prehistoric creatures?   I don't have one.




Well there is this invention called the internet which, I understand, has an ample supply of paleontological sites...

Going through every extinct animal in them ought to keep us busy for a little while... 

More to the point, can anyone think of some prehistoric critters that are relatively common but haven't got official (or CC conversion) stats yet?

Ammonites and Belemites, for example, appear to be absent from D&D. Well, apart from the "Golden Ammonite", but that isn't a natural animal.


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Sep 14, 2011)

Hesperornis?

Eohippus?

Carnotaurus?


----------



## Cleon (Sep 14, 2011)

GrayLinnorm said:


> Hesperornis?
> 
> Eohippus?
> 
> Carnotaurus?




I've seen a 3E version of _Carnotaurus_ on the 'web, but can't recall quite where. Probably one of the Wizards fora.


----------



## Shade (Sep 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well there is this invention called the internet which, I understand, has an ample supply of paleontological sites...




You don't say?  



Cleon said:


> Going through every extinct animal in them ought to keep us busy for a little while...
> 
> More to the point, can anyone think of some prehistoric critters that are relatively common but haven't got official (or CC conversion) stats yet?




That it would.



Cleon said:


> Ammonites and Belemites, for example, appear to be absent from D&D. Well, apart from the "Golden Ammonite", but that isn't a natural animal.






GrayLinnorm said:


> Hesperornis?
> 
> Eohippus?
> 
> Carnotaurus?






Cleon said:


> I've seen a 3E version of _Carnotaurus_ on the 'web, but can't recall quite where. Probably one of the Wizards fora.




I don't see an official version of Carnotaurus, so I'd say any of those are fair game.

I need to go through Echohawks spreadsheet and see if any have been converted by other sites, but not "officially".  We could probably tackle those first before heading out into the never converted.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> I don't see an official version of Carnotaurus, so I'd say any of those are fair game.
> 
> I need to go through Echohawks spreadsheet and see if any have been converted by other sites, but not "officially".  We could probably tackle those first before heading out into the never converted.




Sounds like a plan.

I can wait...


----------



## Shade (Sep 23, 2011)

I've begun compiling a list, but this one immediately caught my attention...

CAT, SABRE-TOOTH
Despite the common name, sabre-tooth cats and their kin were not tigers or any other kind of feline cat; they were a branch of cats separate from modern felines. Sabre-tooth cats existed in many sizes; Smilodon was merely the largest. Included here is Thylacosmilus, a marsupial predator that looked almost exactly like a sabre-tooth cat.  Those sabre-tooth cats smaller than Smilodon can be treated as the appropriately sized feline cat, except for bite damage. All sabre-tooth cats have a +2 bonus to hit with their fangs. Bite damage is adjusted as follows:

Cat size Bite damage
Tiger/lion 2-11
Jaguar (and Thylacosmilus) 2-9
Leopard 2-8

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).

That can open us up to anything listed here:
Saber-toothed cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'd never heard of a sabre-tooth jaguar or leopard, but I like the concept.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 24, 2011)

Shade said:


> Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #137 (1988).
> 
> That can open us up to anything listed here:
> Saber-toothed cat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> ...




There were quite a lot of species of catlike carnivores with large canines back in the Cenozoic, in a whole range of sizes. Prey animals tended to be big back then, so having sabre-teeth (or scimitar-teeth) was presumably quite advantageous.

Which reminds me, I've got a copy of Alan Turner's [ame="http://www.amazon.com/Big-Cats-Their-Fossil-Relatives/dp/0231102291/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1316903409&sr=8-1"]_*The Big Cats and their Fossil Relatives*_[/ame] somewhere on my bookshelves. I wonder what's happened to it.


----------



## Shade (Sep 26, 2011)

Any objections to converting some of these?


----------



## freyar (Sep 27, 2011)

None here.


----------



## Cleon (Sep 28, 2011)

freyar said:


> None here.




Start with the smallest and work our way up?


----------



## freyar (Sep 30, 2011)

Sounds good.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> Sounds good.




So, take the SRD Leopard and tweak it, I guess.

Will these be Dire Beasts (like the _*Frostburn*_ Smilodon) or standard Animals?


----------



## freyar (Oct 3, 2011)

Might as well make them dire, I think.


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2011)

Comparing a standard tiger to a saber-tooth...

3 more HD
+1 natural armor
1 less damage die for claws (probably due to sample tiger having Improved Natural Attack feat; smilodon does not)
Augmented critical
+1 Str, -1 Dex, -1 Con
Feats:  Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (rather than Improved Natural Attack)
*In forest terrain, their Hide bonus improves to +8. (rather than grassy terrain)

Applying the same to a leopard yields...

Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (39 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+4 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d6+3/x3)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d6+3/x3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d3+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Augmented critical, improved grab, pounce, rake 1d3+1
Special Qualities: Dire, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +9, Will +6
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +12, Climb +11, Hide +8*, Jump +11, Listen +6, Move Silently +8, Spot +6, 3 more ranks
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Finesse, 1 more (and possibly replace some)
Environment: Warm forests (cold forests like smilodon?)
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x–x HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: --

Augmented Critical (Ex): A saber-toothed leopard deals triple damage if it scores a critical hit with its bite attack.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a saber-toothed leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Pounce (Ex): If a saber-toothed leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +8 melee, damage 1d3+1.

Skills: Saber-toothed leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Saber-toothed leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A saber-toothed leopard can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 4, 2011)

Shade said:


> Comparing a standard tiger to a saber-tooth...
> 
> 3 more HD
> +1 natural armor
> ...




I'd go for +50% Hit Dice rather than a straight +3 HD.

e.g.

3 HD Leopard => 4 HD.
5 HD Lion => 7 HD.

That suggests a "Sabre Toothed Jaguar" would have 6 HD, since they have 4 HD in AD&D.


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2011)

Fair enough, but let's round up on the +50%.  Just for the heck of it.


----------



## Shade (Oct 6, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'd go for +50% Hit Dice rather than a straight +3 HD.
> 
> e.g.
> 
> ...




So the stats I whipped up above would actually be the "sabre toothed jaguar", and then we downsize it to 4 HD for the "saber toothed leopard"?


----------



## freyar (Oct 6, 2011)

That sounds like a good labor-saving device.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

freyar said:


> Fair enough, but let's round up on the +50%.  Just for the heck of it.




Don't you always round down in 3rd edition.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 7, 2011)

Shade said:


> So the stats I whipped up above would actually be the "sabre toothed jaguar", and then we downsize it to 4 HD for the "saber toothed leopard"?




That'd be OK by me.

Although the Jaguar version might be a bit stronger than the 4 HD one, since it's midway in size between the two cats. The Sabre-Lion's going to be Str 22 and the Sabre-Leopard Str 17, suggesting a Sabre-Jaguar should be about Str 19.


----------



## Shade (Oct 7, 2011)

Added to Homebrews...

Saber-Toothed Jaguar
Saber-Toothed Leopard
Saber-Toothed Lion


----------



## Cleon (Oct 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews...
> 
> Saber-Toothed Jaguar
> Saber-Toothed Leopard
> Saber-Toothed Lion




I'd increase the Sabre-Jaguar's bite damage to 1d8 and the Sabre-Lion's to 1d10.

Any preferences for the feats? Multiattack or Improved Grapple tempt me.


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2011)

Yes, let's increase the bite, though one step for the lion is 2d6.

Definitely Multi-Attack.  Could do Imp Grapple (esp for the jag), though I'm not sure why we wouldn't just give them Imp Grab.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 10, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, let's increase the bite, though one step for the lion is 2d6.




I wanted the damage to be midway between a Lion (1d8) and a Tiger/Smilodon (2d6), thus 1d10 or "half a step above 1d8".



freyar said:


> Definitely Multi-Attack.  Could do Imp Grapple (esp for the jag), though I'm not sure why we wouldn't just give them Imp Grab.




They've already got Improved Grab. I suggested just for the grapple boost, since most sabre-toothed cats probably wrestled big prey. Could make it a racial bonus instead, I guess, but I prefer the feat.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2011)

Cleon said:


> They've already got Improved Grab. I suggested just for the grapple boost, since most sabre-toothed cats probably wrestled big prey. Could make it a racial bonus instead, I guess, but I prefer the feat.




I prefer the racial bonus, as the feat appears designed for unarmed humanoids (hence the Improved Unarmed Strike prereq).

I'm OK with Multiattack and 1d8/1d10 for the bites.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> I prefer the racial bonus, as the feat appears designed for unarmed humanoids (hence the Improved Unarmed Strike prereq).
> 
> I'm OK with Multiattack and 1d8/1d10 for the bites.




Okay so we've got Alertness, Multiattack and a smallish (+2? +4?) racial bonus to grapple.

What about its remaining feat.

If it deals with big prey, it would benefit from a way of boosting damage.

Power Attack?

Alternatively, we could give it Stealthy to help it sneak up to prey.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2011)

Stealthy appeals.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> Stealthy appeals.




...but a bit boring, I prefer Power Attack.

Still, I'll go along with Stealthy if you and Freyar prefer it.

What grapple bonus? I think +2 should be plenty - I don't want them to be as talented grapplers as the SRD Squid.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> ...but a bit boring, I prefer Power Attack.




...says the guy always pushing for Alertness and Iron Will!  



Cleon said:


> Still, I'll go along with Stealthy if you and Freyar prefer it.




freyar, you make the call.



Cleon said:


> What grapple bonus? I think +2 should be plenty - I don't want them to be as talented grapplers as the SRD Squid.




Agreed.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> ...says the guy always pushing for Alertness and Iron Will!




Not always, I can be fickle you know. 



Shade said:


> freyar, you make the call.




Fine by me.

Let someone else take the blame. 



Shade said:


> Agreed.




+2 racial to grapple it is, then.


----------



## freyar (Oct 13, 2011)

Why not Power Attack for the lion and Stealthy for the jaguar?

+2 grapple bonus it is.


----------



## Shade (Oct 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not Power Attack for the lion and Stealthy for the jaguar?




Yeah, that seems a good fit.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 14, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not Power Attack for the lion and Stealthy for the jaguar?




Works for me!



freyar said:


> +2 grapple bonus it is.




So at least that's settled.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2011)

Updated:

Saber-Toothed Jaguar
Saber-Toothed Leopard
Saber-Toothed Lion


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2011)

Any other mechanics?

As they are now, I'd go with a tough CR 2 for the leopard (though I could see a case for 3), jaguar is probably 4 but maybe a tough 3, and lion is definitely a solid 4.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2011)

Did we discuss what to do with the extra skill ranks?

And what about the environment?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 18, 2011)

Shade said:


> Did we discuss what to do with the extra skill ranks?




No, we didn't. Probably just stick them in Hide.



Shade said:


> And what about the environment?




Well the various species of sabre-toothed cats were pretty widespread, so we could just make it "Any warm or temperate land".


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2011)

Cleon said:


> No, we didn't. Probably just stick them in Hide.




That works for me.



Cleon said:


> Well the various species of sabre-toothed cats were pretty widespread, so we could just make it "Any warm or temperate land".




Weren't smilodons found in cold lands?   Were the other saber-toothed cats not found there?


----------



## Cleon (Oct 19, 2011)

Shade said:


> Weren't smilodons found in cold lands?   Were the other saber-toothed cats not found there?




A lot of _Smilodon_ remains have been found in California, so they  obviously weren't restricted to cold climates. Even in the Ice Age,  California probably wasn't that cold. 

As I said before, sabre-tooth cats were found all over the place. In the case of _Smilodon_, they lived across a lot of North America, and moved into South America once the two continents joined together. 

Hmm, maybe "Any plain or forest" would be better? I've seen speculation they might have preferred grasslands and forests.


----------



## freyar (Oct 20, 2011)

Go for "any plain and forest."  I'd be happy with that.


----------



## Shade (Oct 21, 2011)

That'll work.  Updated all three.  

Suggested advancement ranges?

Smilodon advances up to double HD and remains the same size.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 21, 2011)

freyar said:


> Go for "any plain and forest."  I'd be happy with that.




Fine by me.


----------



## freyar (Oct 24, 2011)

And I'll also agree to advancing to double HD remaining the same size.


----------



## Cleon (Oct 25, 2011)

freyar said:


> And I'll also agree to advancing to double HD remaining the same size.




Sounds like we're agreed *again*.

That Blue Moon must be warping our sensibilities. 

So, what do we have left for them?


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Sounds like we're agreed *again*.
> 
> That Blue Moon must be warping our sensibilities.
> 
> So, what do we have left for them?




Spooooooky!

I updated all three.  I believe all that's left is desc/flavor/tactics.


----------



## freyar (Oct 26, 2011)

Anyone good with that stuff around here?

*Clunk*

Oh, there goes another one of those hints....


----------



## Cleon (Oct 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> Anyone good with that stuff around here?
> 
> *Clunk*
> 
> Oh, there goes another one of those hints....




Yes, I need to be careful not to trip over the dang things.


----------



## freyar (Oct 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Yes, I need to be careful not to trip over the dang things.



But you were _supposed_ to trip over that....


----------



## Cleon (Oct 29, 2011)

freyar said:


> But you were _supposed_ to trip over that....




'Fraid you'll need a higher DC to have much chance of me not noticing these Tripping Hint Traps. 

I _suppose_ I could show leniency and propose some flavour text.


----------



## Shade (Oct 31, 2011)

<clunk>

$&%^&*#!!!!!

I'd write some flavor-text, but I don't know enough about these creatures other than saying they are longer-fanged, prehistoric counterparts of their base creatures.


----------



## freyar (Oct 31, 2011)

I guess that leaves our resident paleontological expert...


----------



## Cleon (Nov 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> <clunk>
> 
> $&%^&*#!!!!!
> 
> I'd write some flavor-text, but I don't know enough about these creatures other than saying they are longer-fanged, prehistoric counterparts of their base creatures.




Very well,  I think we'd better keep it fairly simple. How's this for a beginning.

_A great cat with long canines protruding from its upper jaw. Its body is heavy set and rippling with powerful muscles._

Saber-toothed cats are prehistoric carnivores who hunt the large herbivores that were abundant in those lost ages. There are many species of saber-cat, some of which are only distant kin to each other. The above stats categorize saber-cats by their size - e.g. a saber-toothed lion is roughly the size of a modern lion, but is probably not closely related to a lion.

A saber-toothed leopard is about 4 feet long and 150 pounds, a saber-toothed jaguar is about 5 feet long and 250 to 300 pounds, and a saber-toothed lion is 6 to 8 feet long and 500 to 700 pounds.

*COMBAT*

Saber-toothed cats are ambush predators, like most cats. They stalk up to prey and pounce, then tear into their victim with claws and fang. A saber-cat will usually finish off a victim with a saber-fanged bite. 

Saber toothed cats can do terrible damage, but are no more courageous than other cats. They will usually retreat if a fight turns against them and seek easier prey.

 A few species of saber-cat may hunt in small prides. Such a pride can predate very big animals, such as mastodons or aurochs. They tend to concentrate their efforts on bringing down a single opponent.


----------



## freyar (Nov 2, 2011)

Looks good to me!


----------



## Shade (Nov 2, 2011)

Updated all three:

Saber-Toothed Jaguar
Saber-Toothed Leopard
Saber-Toothed Lion

Finished?


----------



## Mortis (Nov 2, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Saber-toothed cats *are* prehistoric carnivores who hunt the large herbivores that *were* abundant in those lost ages.



Now I'll be the first to admit that I failed my English Language O Level (which dates me for those aware of such things) but aren't you mixing tenses here?

Given as they are going to be creatures that encountered 'now' (unless some time travel, summoning from the pas etc. is involved) wouldn't it be best to stick with present tense?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Cleon (Nov 2, 2011)

freyar said:


> Looks good to me!




So we should be about done, then.


----------



## Shade (Nov 3, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Now I'll be the first to admit that I failed my English Language O Level (which dates me for those aware of such things) but aren't you mixing tenses here?
> 
> Given as they are going to be creatures that encountered 'now' (unless some time travel, summoning from the pas etc. is involved) wouldn't it be best to stick with present tense?
> 
> ...




Good point.  I've updated all three to correct that.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Now I'll be the first to admit that I failed my English Language O Level (which dates me for those aware of such things) but aren't you mixing tenses here?
> 
> Given as they are going to be creatures that encountered 'now' (unless some time travel, summoning from the pas etc. is involved) wouldn't it be best to stick with present tense?
> 
> ...




Well, they _*are*_ from prehistoric times, if temporal transfers weren't involved how do your modern PCs meet them?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> Good point.  I've updated all three to correct that.




I'd either add a "pride" group to all the saber-cats (speculative though it is) or remove the tactics bit mentioning prides from the cats that don't have a pride in their Organization.

Oh, and I would suggest a smaller lower end and possibly a wider range for the pride.

E.g. pride (3-6) or pride (3-12).


----------



## freyar (Nov 3, 2011)

The pride modifications make sense.

As for the tenses, they are right now predators.  But the big game they hunt used to be numerous but are around now only in smaller numbers.  I think the mixed tenses are ok here.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 6, 2011)

freyar said:


> The pride modifications make sense.




Are you referring to all the pride modifications, or just a subset?



freyar said:


> As for the tenses, they are right now predators.  But the big game they hunt used to be numerous but are around now only in smaller numbers.  I think the mixed tenses are ok here.




Quite, I see nothing wrong with it.

While I prefer my earlier phrasing, I would accept Shade's rewording if the "hunt mostly" became "mostly hunt".


----------



## RavinRay (Nov 7, 2011)

Whew. Sorry I've been away so long guys, this year's been busy travel-wise for the office. Being sent away on two-week fieldworks plus attending seminars and workshops in and out-of-town. I'll take a look at the _Smilodon_ and come back to you.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 7, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Whew. Sorry I've been away so long guys, this year's been busy travel-wise for the office. Being sent away on two-week fieldworks plus attending seminars and workshops in and out-of-town. I'll take a look at the _Smilodon_ and come back to you.




Welcome back!

We look about done with the sabre-cats, but I will welcome any feedback.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> While I prefer my earlier phrasing, I would accept Shade's rewording if the "hunt mostly" became "mostly hunt".




Consider it done.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 8, 2011)

Shade said:


> Consider it done.




So, would you like to wait for RavinRay or shall we contemplate the next beastie?

If there is a next beastie. We seem to be running low of archaeo-critters.


----------



## RavinRay (Nov 10, 2011)

I checked all three saber-toothed cats, and it looks like you did a good job of differentiating them from one another other than just HD while noting their similarities. Neat-o!


----------



## Shade (Nov 10, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> I checked all three saber-toothed cats, and it looks like you did a good job of differentiating them from one another other than just HD while noting their similarities. Neat-o!




Woo-hoo!

*Aetosaur *
Aetosaurs are archosaurs from the Triassic. These inoffensive herbivores and omnivores resemble land-going crocodiles in overall form, but the head of each is small and terminates in a blunt, piglike, rooting snout. The back and belly are protected by a layer of armor plating, and there may also be projecting spines around the shoulder and neck. An aetosaur’s best defense is to swing its heavy tail at attackers, though it can also bite. Aetosaurs may be treated as terrestrial crocodilians (see below) of up to 6 HD, though they have an armor class of 4 and a bite that does damage like that of a crocodilian two sizes smaller (that is, a 6 HD aetosaur bites for 2-8 points of damage).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).

Aetosaur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Worthy of conversion?


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Updated all three:
> 
> Saber-Toothed Jaguar
> Saber-Toothed Leopard
> ...




I was just saving these fellows for posterity when I noticed the accreditation's wrong. They're from Dragon #137, not #102.

Methinks Shade copied one of the Canines conversions and forgot to change it.


----------



## Cleon (Nov 11, 2011)

Shade said:


> Woo-hoo!
> 
> *Aetosaur *
> Aetosaurs are archosaurs from the Triassic. These inoffensive herbivores and omnivores resemble land-going crocodiles in overall form, but the head of each is small and terminates in a blunt, piglike, rooting snout. The back and belly are protected by a layer of armor plating, and there may also be projecting spines around the shoulder and neck. An aetosaur’s best defense is to swing its heavy tail at attackers, though it can also bite. Aetosaurs may be treated as terrestrial crocodilians (see below) of up to 6 HD, though they have an armor class of 4 and a bite that does damage like that of a crocodilian two sizes smaller (that is, a 6 HD aetosaur bites for 2-8 points of damage).
> ...




Sure, why not. Shouldn't take long to modify a crocodile.

Although I'm more interested in the other specialized Crocodilian variants in _Dragon #112_ (Gavial-type, Oceanic, Terrestrial).

Incidentally, that's from one of my favourite articles from the early days of _Dragon_, it was one of the main inspirations for some of the Mesozoic menagerie I've posted here.


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## RavinRay (Nov 13, 2011)

Ooh, an aetosaur! Fearsome-looking plant-eater distant crocodile relative. (Unlike the misnamed phytosaur, the carnivorous "plant lizard".)

Of course dinosaurs like _Stegosaurus_ and  _Ankylosaurus_ (in the _Monster Manual II_) were tail swingers too, but theirs were spiked and spiked/clubbed, respectively, This one sounds more like a simple tail attack.


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## Cleon (Nov 13, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Ooh, an aetosaur! Fearsome-looking plant-eater distant crocodile relative. (Unlike the misnamed phytosaur, the carnivorous "plant lizard".)
> 
> Of course dinosaurs like _Stegosaurus_ and  _Ankylosaurus_ (in the _Monster Manual II_) were tail swingers too, but theirs were spiked and spiked/clubbed, respectively, This one sounds more like a simple tail attack.




So, are you OK about modifying the SRD crocodile for it?

Lower the bite damage 2 steps, change Weapon Focus (bite) to  Weapon Focus (tail slap), drop the Swim speed and _maybe_ increase the land speed, add a few points to natural armour, plus remove the Hold Breath, Improved Grab and bonuses to Hide.

Oh, and broaden Advancement to 4-5 HD (Medium); 6-9 HD (Large) and change the Environment to "Warm land" or "Warm plains".

That seems to cover it.


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## RavinRay (Nov 14, 2011)

Cleon said:


> So, are you OK about modifying the SRD crocodile for it?
> 
> Lower the bite damage 2 steps, change Weapon Focus (bite) to Weapon Focus (tail slap), drop the Swim speed and _maybe_ increase the land speed, add a few points to natural armour, plus remove the Hold Breath, Improved Grab and bonuses to Hide.
> 
> ...



Agreed on those, it's more terrestrial than amphibious and as a vegetarian it had a far weaker bite. It may have had a more erect posture than a crocodile, but the ankle remains crocodile-like so at most it would have only a +5 speed boost I'd say.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Agreed on those, it's more terrestrial than amphibious and as a vegetarian it had a far weaker bite. It may have had a more erect posture than a crocodile, but the ankle remains crocodile-like so at most it would have only a +5 speed boost I'd say.




The Dragon article in question gave terrestrial crocodiles a 15" ground speed, but that seems too high to me. I'd give them Spd 30 ft., the same as the SRD Monitor Lizard.

Anyhow, since you're OK with the above I might as well post a Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2011)

*Aetosaur Working Draft*

*Aetosaur*
Medium Animal
Hit Dice: 3d8+9 (22 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+6
Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d12+6) or bite +6 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d12+6) or bite +6 melee (1d4+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +4, Listen +4, Spot +4
Feats: Alertness, Weapon Focus (tail)
Environment: Any warm land
Organization: Solitary or herd (4-24)
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 4–5 HD (Medium); 6-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

_Description._

Background.

A typical aetosaur is about X feet long and weighs Y pounds.

COMBAT

Skills: ?
*
Spined Aetosaur*
Some aetosaurs have several pairs of horn-covered spikes on the back of these shoulders, which serve as defensive weapons. Add the following:

Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d12+6) or bite +6 melee (1d4+4) or spines +6 melee (1d4+4)
Full Attack: Tail slap +7 melee (1d12+6) or bite +6 melee (1d4+4) or spines +6 melee (1d4+4)
Special Attacks: Spines

*Spines (Ex):* Any creature striking an aetosaur with  handheld   weapons or natural weapons must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take  1d4+4  points of piercing and  slashing damage from the reptile's  spines. Note  that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears,  do  not  endanger their users in this way. An aetosaur may also  use its  spines  offensively.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2011)

I'm no expert on these things, but this...



> The back and belly are protected by a layer of armor plating, and there may also be projecting spines around the shoulder and neck.




...suggests a Spines attack.  Or are these simply decorative spines?


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## Cleon (Nov 15, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm no expert on these things, but this...
> 
> ...suggests a Spines attack.  Or are these simply decorative spines?




They're hefty spines similar to those of some armoured dinosaurs like _Polacanthus_. They look formidable enough to be defensive weapons, but I was reluctant to start the Working Draft with anything that wasn't in the Dragon #102 Aetosaur or the 3E Crocodile.

I'd be happy to add them once we agree on the basics.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> They're hefty spines similar to those of some armoured dinosaurs like _Polacanthus_. They look formidable enough to be defensive weapons, but I was reluctant to start the Working Draft with anything that wasn't in the Dragon #102 Aetosaur or the 3E Crocodile.
> 
> I'd be happy to add them once we agree on the basics.




I'm ready to agree with the basics you've got in the Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Nov 16, 2011)

Shade said:


> I'm ready to agree with the basics you've got in the Working Draft.




So, what would you like to do with the spines, the usual spiny defense, as used in out Dacentrurus conversion, or do we allow for it to employ them offensively like the Giant Porcupine Fish?



			
				Creature Catalog said:
			
		

> *Spiny Defense (Ex):* Any creature that hits a dacentrurus in melee using a handheld or natural weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed on a DC 13 Reflex save or take 1d6+6 points of damage from the creature’s broad spines. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
> 
> Spines (Ex): Any creature striking an inflated giant porcupine fish with handheld weapons or natural weapons takes 1d6-1 points of piercing and slashing damage from the fish's spines, and expose them to the fish's poison. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do not endanger their users in this way. A giant porcupine fish may also use its spines offensively.




Which translates:

* #1** Spiny Defense (Ex):* Any creature that hits an aetosaur in melee using a handheld or natural weapon (but not a reach weapon) must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take Y points of damage from the creature’s broad spines. The save DC is Dexterity-based.

*#2 **Spines (Ex):* Any creature striking an aetosaur with  handheld weapons or natural weapons takes X points of piercing and  slashing damage from the reptile's spines. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do  not endanger their users in this way. An aetosaur may also  use its spines offensively.

Or we could combine the two into a save-avoided spiny defense plus a spiny offense:

*Attack/Full Attack:* Tail slap +7 melee (1d12+6) or bite +6 melee (1d4+4) or spines +6 melee (1d4+4)

*#3 Spines (Ex):* Any creature striking an aetosaur with  handheld weapons or natural weapons must succeed on a DC 12 Reflex save or take X points of piercing and  slashing damage from the reptile's spines. Note that weapons with exceptional reach, such as longspears, do  not endanger their users in this way. An aetosaur may also  use its spines offensively.

An aetosaur doesn't have many spines, but their pretty big and pointy, so I'm leaning toward option #3.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2011)

Option #3 appeals.


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2011)

Hmm, I'd like to hear from RavinRay if possible on the offensive use, but I'll agree tentatively.


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2011)

freyar said:


> Hmm, I'd like to hear from RavinRay if possible on the offensive use, but I'll agree tentatively.




I can wait.


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## RavinRay (Nov 17, 2011)

The shoulder spikes seem like they work best when the animal is charging or turning it's head and shoulders sideways. I suppose you can work the damage when the aetosaur charges?


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## Cleon (Nov 18, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> The shoulder spikes seem like they work best when the animal is charging or turning it's head and shoulders sideways. I suppose you can work the damage when the aetosaur charges?




That would fall under option #3, which provides a standard melee attack with its spines it can use for a charge attack.

We could add a "powerful charge" so its spines do more damage when it charges, but I think that's straying too far. Besides, the spines point sideways or at an angle, they're not _that_ well placed for a charge attack.


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## RavinRay (Nov 19, 2011)

Hmm… that's a valid point about the charge. If we opt to make spines offensive as well as defensive (#1 and #2 options) weapons, would a slam make sense?


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Hmm… that's a valid point about the charge. If we opt to make spines offensive as well as defensive (#1 and #2 options) weapons, would a slam make sense?




#2 is an offensive plus defensive option like #3, the difference is that #3 has a Reflex save to avoid the defensive spines, while #2 has the defensive spines hit automatically.

Anyhow, #3 already is the combination of #1 and #2 options so I'll add it to the *Working Draft*. I'll give the defensive spines the same damage as the standard attack version.



RavinRay said:


> … would a slam make sense?




Are we proposing adding a slam attack which can be augmented by a Powerful Charge?

Don't care for that. We've already added one attack (assuming we're using the spines), and as far as I can tell aetosaurs don't seem to be built for charging any more than most tetrapods. Is there any evidence of them having reinforced necks or heads, or other impact-surviving adaptations?

I'd leave it at Spines.

They look about done mechanically, which just leaves the flavour text.

I'm thinking 6 to 8 feet long (including tail) and 150 to 400 pounds for a "typical aetosaur". Smaller species can be as little as half that size (i.e. roughly a yard long), and the largest Aetosaurs like _Desmatosuchus_ were about twice as big (up to 15 feet?).


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## Cleon (Nov 19, 2011)

Oh, and some Aetosaurs lacked these shoulder/back spines. Should we include a "spineless option"?

Hmm, or we could make "spined aetosaurs" the option and cut the spines from the basic model.

I'll need to check whether spined or spineless species are more numerous, but I'm starting to lean towards a spineless default, since that's what the _Dragon #112_ article uses.

EDIT: I think I'll modify the *Working Draft* with a spined version.


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## Mortis (Nov 21, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Should we include a "spineless option"?



Will that give it a penalty to fear checks? 

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2011)

Mortis said:


> Will that give it a penalty to fear checks?
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




It'd also subtract from rolls to resist Intimidation.


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## Shade (Nov 22, 2011)

Cleon said:


> It'd also subtract from rolls to resist Intimidation.




And since it's now invertebrate, should we switch the type to Vermin?


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## Cleon (Nov 23, 2011)

Shade said:


> And since it's now invertebrate, should we switch the type to Vermin?




Nah, it's still a reptile but is somehow miraculously able to live without a spine.

That suggests Magical Beast or Aberration.


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2011)

You folks clearly have too much time on your hands. 

Anyway, this is looking pretty good.  Anything else for them?


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> You folks clearly have too much time on your hands.
> 
> Anyway, this is looking pretty good.  Anything else for them?




We've got to decide on the Organization - it's currently the same as the SRD crocodile - and add some flavour.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We've got to decide on the Organization - it's currently the same as the SRD crocodile - and add some flavour.




Since I know next to nothing about these guys, I'll defer to the experts.


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## freyar (Nov 29, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since I know next to nothing about these guys, I'll defer to the experts.



Same here, but I don't have a problem leaving it the same as the croc by default.


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## Cleon (Nov 30, 2011)

Shade said:


> Since I know next to nothing about these guys, I'll defer to the experts.




Well, there are some mass death assemblages of Aetosaurs (e.g. lots of fossil aetosaurs that seem to have died at the same time), suggesting at least some of them gathered in groups. There's a mass death assemblage with 24 specimens of _*Aetosaurus*_.

I think that's enough to give them "herd" organization. Maybe 4-24?


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Well, there are some mass death assemblages of Aetosaurs (e.g. lots of fossil aetosaurs that seem to have died at the same time), suggesting at least some of them gathered in groups. There's a mass death assemblage with 24 specimens of _*Aetosaurus*_.
> 
> I think that's enough to give them "herd" organization. Maybe 4-24?




Works for me!


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

Shade said:


> Works for me!




Updating *Working Draft*.

So, are we giving them any racial bonus to skills? If not, we just need flavour text to polish them off.


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2011)

Cleon said:


> Updating *Working Draft*.
> 
> So, are we giving them any racial bonus to skills? If not, we just need flavour text to polish them off.




I can't think of any racial skills they need.


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## freyar (Dec 1, 2011)

Yeah, I don't see a need to do too much with the skills.  Spot if you really want could get a small bonus.

I'll let the experts weigh in on size and flavor.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I don't see a need to do too much with the skills.  Spot if you really want could get a small bonus.




I'm not in favour of any racial skill bonuses, but I wanted to open the matter to consultation.



freyar said:


> I'll let the experts weigh in on size and flavor.




I'm thinking something like:

_A reptilian creature resembling a thick bodied crocodile, heavily armored with plates of horn-covered bone. Its head has a long beak with rows of small, conical teeth._

Aetosaurs are a type of herbivorous prehistoric reptiles that lived before the age of the dinosaurs. Aetosaurs ate ground vegetation, grazing off stalks and leaves or digging up roots. Ground ferns are a major part of many aetosaurs' diet. 

A typical aetosaur is 6 to 8 feet long (including tail) and weighs 150 to 400 pounds, The biggest species of aetosaur could grow up to twice this size (16 feet or so), the smallest were as little as a yard long.

COMBAT
An aetosaur will defend itself with its tail and bite if attacked, but prefers to walk away from something that looks like a threat.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

Combined the flavor with the working draft and added to Homebrews.

Finished?


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## Cleon (Dec 2, 2011)

Shade said:


> Combined the flavor with the working draft and added to Homebrews.
> 
> Finished?




Looks that way.


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## RavinRay (Dec 2, 2011)

Cleon's got the herd organization and physical stats pat down so it's a go for me.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2011)

Is this one worthy of conversion?

*PHYTOSAUR*
Phytosaurs are archosaurs from the Triassic, rivals of the crocodilians “ancestors”. They resemble crocodilians, but the nostrils are set on a volcano-shaped bump between the eyes rather than on the end of the snout. Phytosaurs may be treated as crocodilians; many are specialized fish-eaters, but they lack the other crocodiliansubtypes and they never exceed 7 HD.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).


Phytosaur - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cleon (Dec 3, 2011)

Shade said:


> Is this one worthy of conversion?
> 
> *PHYTOSAUR*
> Phytosaurs are archosaurs from the Triassic, rivals of the crocodilians “ancestors”. They resemble crocodilians, but the nostrils are set on a volcano-shaped bump between the eyes rather than on the end of the snout. Phytosaurs may be treated as crocodilians; many are specialized fish-eaters, but they lack the other crocodiliansubtypes and they never exceed 7 HD.
> ...




They may not actually be Crocodilians, but their morphology is so similar they ought to use the SRD Crocodile stats.

I'm OK skipping this one.


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## RavinRay (Dec 5, 2011)

Agreed, they're too similar to crocodiles to be differntiated game-wise. As an aside, the name _phyotosaur_ means "plant lizard" which is obviously misleading for a carnivore. How the first paleontologist who named them came to the conclusion they were peaceful herbivores boggles me!


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2011)

Next?


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## Cleon (Dec 5, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Agreed, they're too similar to crocodiles to be differntiated game-wise. As an aside, the name _phyotosaur_ means "plant lizard" which is obviously misleading for a carnivore. How the first paleontologist who named them came to the conclusion they were peaceful herbivores boggles me!




Well I did a bit of internet rummaging, and apparently the original describer of _Phytosaurus_ came up with this plant-eating identification because he mistook fossilized casts of the animal's tooth *sockets* for its actual teeth. See *here* or *here* for some details.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2011)

How 'bout this one?

*Pliosaur*
Pliosaurs are marine reptiles related to plesiosaurs. Like plesiosaurs, they row about the Jurassic and Cretaceous oceans with their paddlelike fins. Unlike plesiosaurs, they have short necks and long jaws. Though their mode of locomotion differs, they may be treated as crocodilians of 5 HD or more, all adapted to aquatic conditions and some adapted to shell-crushing. They are nonintelligent.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).

Pliosaurus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Cleon (Dec 6, 2011)

Shade said:


> How 'bout this one?
> 
> *Pliosaur*
> Pliosaurs are marine reptiles related to plesiosaurs. Like plesiosaurs, they row about the Jurassic and Cretaceous oceans with their paddlelike fins. Unlike plesiosaurs, they have short necks and long jaws. Though their mode of locomotion differs, they may be treated as crocodilians of 5 HD or more, all adapted to aquatic conditions and some adapted to shell-crushing. They are nonintelligent.
> ...




We've already done stats for _Kronosaurus_ and _Liopleurodon_, Gargantuan/Colossal examples of Pliosaur.

These are simply smaller versions of those creatures, so should be fairly easy to stat up.


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## Shade (Dec 7, 2011)

Cleon said:


> We've already done stats for _Kronosaurus_ and _Liopleurodon_, Gargantuan/Colossal examples of Pliosaur.
> 
> These are simply smaller versions of those creatures, so should be fairly easy to stat up.




Sounds good.  What size shall we make 'em?


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## RavinRay (Dec 7, 2011)

Huge for me.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2011)

Huge works.


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## Cleon (Dec 8, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> Huge for me.




I'd start with 5 HD Large animals and work up from there.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2011)

How big were these things anyway?  As in feet long and weight?


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2011)

We've got multiple votes for Huge.  Care to sell us on Large, Cleon?


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## Cleon (Dec 10, 2011)

Shade said:


> We've got multiple votes for Huge.  Care to sell us on Large, Cleon?




If you like.

*Argument #1*
Roll up! Roll up! Buy your compact sized pliosaurs here! Half the length of Huge and half the fuss! With our new compact breeds you enjoy reduced feed bills and need never fear them outgrowing your monster infested moat!

*Argument #2*
The Dragon magazine Dinosaurs article says "they may be treated as crocodilians of 5 HD or more".

That Dragon Magazine's article on Crocodilians has the following HD/Damage/Size table:

*   Hit Dice        Damage      Size
*       1 hp                Nil        S(to 3)
         ¼                   1            S(4)
         ½                 1d2          S(5)
         1                  1d4         M(6)
         2                1d4+1       M(7)
         3                  2d4        L(8-9)
          4                  2d6      L(10-11)
       5-6                2d8      L(12-15)
       7-8               2d10     L(16-25)
      9-10               3d8      L(26-35)
     11-12             3d10     L(36-45)
     13-14             3d12     L(46-55)

As you can see, the 5 Hit Dice crocodilian is 12-15 feet long, which is a better fit to Large than Huge.

*Argument #3*
Your SRD Crocodile is 3 HD and Medium, with 4-5 HD (Medium) Advancement, so according yo the official 3rd edition rules a 5 HD crocodilian is _smaller_ than Large. That means I'm being generous making them Large rather than Huge...

*Argument #4*
The fossil record indicates the largest species of Pliosaur could reach 50 feet long (e.g. "Predator X"), but the smaller species could be considerably smaller, e.g. _*Macroplata*_ (~15 feet), _*Meyerasaurus*_ and _*Peloneustes*_ (~10 to 12 feet) or the modest *Thalassiodracon* (which was only 5 to 7 feet long).

*Argument #5*
Even if every Pliosaur in the D&D seas grew up to be Huge- or larger monsters, they'll be smaller when they were younger. A juvenile pliosaur would probably hunt much like an adult, so the DM would probably use the same stats for half-grown _*Kronosaurus*_ as for a full-grown _*Macroplata*_, since both are about 15 feet long.

Argument #6
I was assuming we'd be having seperate stat blocks for each size category, e.g. Generic Large Pliosaur, Generic Huge Pliosaur, Generic Gargantuan Pliosaur et cetera.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2011)

Not sure we need separate statblocks, given that we already have larger versions...

But I am convinced that we should start with Large, advancing well into Huge, just based on the real-world sizes of some of these things.


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## Cleon (Dec 11, 2011)

freyar said:


> Not sure we need separate statblocks, given that we already have larger versions...
> 
> But I am convinced that we should start with Large, advancing well into  Huge, just based on the real-world sizes of some of these  things.




I think the advancement should go up to Gargantuan, since the largest Pliosaurs were 50+ feet.

They could go like this:

Generic Large Pliosaur 10-12 feet long (5 Hit Dice)
Generic Huge Pliosaur 20-25 feet long (10 Hit Dice)
Generic Gargantuan Pliosaur 40-50 feet long (20 Hit Dice)

That would fit with the SRD Elasmosaurus which is 10 HD and Huge, and  reaches Gargantuan at 21+ HD.

*Generic Pliosaur #1:* 5-9 HD (Large); 10-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)

Contrariwise, if they are based on "Crocodilian" stats we should also  consider the SRD Giant Crocodile, which is 7 HD and Huge. Also, we've  also got a big Pliosaur conversion in Enworld, the _Kronosaurus_, which is Gargantuan but only has 17 Hit Dice.

That suggests it may have a lower HD range, maybe something like:

*Generic Pliosaur #2:* 5-8 HD (Large); 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-25 HD (Gargantuan)

Liopleurodon has official stats in Dragon #318, It is a Colossal 80+  foot creature with 38 Hit Dice, which is much larger than known fossil  evidence supports.

If we expand our Pliosaurs HD and size values  to Colossal, you'll see that a 38 HD Liopleurodon is a better fit to the  "lower HD" *Pliosaur #2*:

*Expanded Generic Pliosaur #1:* 5-9 HD (Large); 10-20 HD (Huge); 21-41? HD (Gargantuan); 42-75? HD (Colossal)
*Expanded Generic Pliosaur #2:* 5-8 HD (Large); 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-32 HD (Gargantuan); 33-75 HD (Colossal)


----------



## Cleon (Dec 11, 2011)

Oh, and I also posted a homebrew _Pliosaurus_ which is posted *here*.


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## RavinRay (Dec 12, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I think the advancement should go up to Gargantuan, since the largest Pliosaurs were 50+ feet.



There's some debate as to whether a recently describe giant _Pliosaurus_ is actually either _Kronosaurus_ or _Liopluerodon_, but in any case it demonstrates that this genus can be scaled up, as per the rest of Cleon's post.


> Liopleurodon has official stats in Dragon #318, It is a Colossal 80+  foot creature with 38 Hit Dice, which is much larger than known fossil  evidence supports.



True, an 80 foot pliosaur, has, as of this writing at least, not yet been discovered. If it does happen, it would be another case of life imitating art after the discovery of more complete _Utahraptor_ fossil following Spielberg's decision to scale up _Velociraptor_ in the _Jurassic Park_ movie, though it had already been named from an earlier pre-movie find.


----------



## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

RavinRay said:


> There's some debate as to whether a recently describe giant _Pliosaurus_ is actually either _Kronosaurus_ or _Liopluerodon_, but in any case it demonstrates that this genus can be scaled up, as per the rest of Cleon's post.
> 
> True, an 80 foot pliosaur, has, as of this writing at least, not yet been discovered. If it does happen, it would be another case of life imitating art after the discovery of more complete _Utahraptor_ fossil following Spielberg's decision to scale up _Velociraptor_ in the _Jurassic Park_ movie, though it had already been named from an earlier pre-movie find.




There are several potential 50+ foot giant Pliosaur fossils, and I haven't heard that any have been clearly identified yet. What genus they are doesn't matter much for the purposes of this thread. As you say, so long as it establishes Gargantuan examples existed we should include them in our Generic Pliosaur stats.

As for the 80-foot Liopleurodon, well it is a fantasy game so we might as well include a larger-than-supported-by-the-fossil-record example in the stats. It's no more a stretch than some of the size advancements WotC gave dinosaurs - such as _Tyrannosaurus rex_ advancing to Gargantuan.

So, where are you on the size/HD question?

I'm starting to lean towards 10 Hit Dice for the Huge Pliosaur, because I don't want them to have fewer HD than the SRD _Elasmosaurus_, which should make a "more official" baseline than a Crocodile or Giant Crocodile.

I guess we could tweak the HD scale a bit to fit in the 38 HD Colossal Liopleurodon, since that's also an official creature:

*Expanded Generic Pliosaur #1:* 5-9 HD (Large); 10-20 HD (Huge); 21-41? HD (Gargantuan); 42-75? HD (Colossal)
*Expanded Generic Pliosaur #2:* 5-8 HD (Large); 9-16 HD (Huge); 17-32 HD (Gargantuan); 33-75 HD (Colossal) 	
*Expanded Generic Pliosaur #3:* 5-9 HD (Large); 10-20 HD (Huge); 21-37 HD (Gargantuan); 38-75 HD (Colossal)

Hmm, I like that #3 progression, it's a decent fit to the available data points.

Also, what special abilities are we giving them - at the very least they need Keen Scent and Hold Breath.

I'm also wondering whether we can shoehorn in any Special Attacks - Improved Grab to seize prey, Worry to shake prey apart, Swallow Whole for smaller opponents, Burst of Speed to catch swift prey, Powerful Charge to make its underwater ambushes more devastating?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

I prefer #3.


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

Shade said:


> I prefer #3.




So do I.

Might as well start on it.

We've got a number of official creatures to model the stats on - the SRD's _Elasmosaurus_ and crocodiles, plus Dragon #318's _Liopleurodon_:

Liopleurodon (C) Str 46, Dex 10, Con 34, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 13, 4d8 bite, NA +20
Elasmosaurus (H) Str 26, Dex 14, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9, 2d8 bite, NA +3
Crocodile (M) Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2, 1d8 bite, NA +4 
Giant Crocodile (H) Str 27, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2, 2d8 bite, NA +7

We'd need to change their size to Large for our base creature:


*Large Versions*
Liopleurodon Str 22, Dex 16, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 13, 1d10 bite, NA +8
Elasmosaurus Str 18, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9, 1d10 bite, NA +0
Crocodile (M) Str 27, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2, 2d6 bite, NA +6
G Crocodile (H) Str 19, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2, 1d10 bite, NA +4

If we just average all four sets of numbers it works out:

Str 21½, Dex 13½, Con 21, Int 1½, Wis 13¼, Cha 6½, 1d10 bite, NA +4½

Hmm, I'm liking the Liopleurodon's Strength (which is also the average of the two Crocs) and the Elasmosaurus for the other stats.

1d10 seems too low for bite damage though. The Dragon #112 article gave 2d8 for the damage, so I'd peg it inbetween at 2d6, like an SRD Crocodile advanced one size. It should certainly have base damage more than an _Elasmosaurus_, since they have much bigger heads.

I'll start a Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Dec 12, 2011)

*Generic Pliosaur Working Draft*

*Pliosaur, Large
*Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 5d8+20 (42 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+12
*Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d10+9)
*Full Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d10+9)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole, worry 2d8+12
*Special Qualities:* Keen scent, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 22, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +14
*Feats:* Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 6-9 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Pliosaur, Huge
*Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 10d8+60 (105 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 50 ft.
*Armor Class:* 17 (-2 size, +1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +7/+25
*Attack:* Bite +16 melee (2d8+15/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +16 melee (2d8+15/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole, worry 3d8+20
*Special Qualities:* Keen scent, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +4
*Abilities:* Str 30, Dex 12, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Listen +6, Spot +9, Swim +18
*Feats:* Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 7
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 11-20 HD (Huge)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Pliosaur, Gargantuan
*Gargantuan Animal
*Hit Dice:* 21d8+219 (313 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* Swim 60 ft.
*Armor Class:* 19 (-4 size, +13 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +15/+41
*Attack:* Bite +24 melee (4d8+21/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +24 melee (4d8+21/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft./15 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole, worry 6d8+28
*Special Qualities:* Keen scent, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +23, Ref +12, Will +8
*Abilities:* Str 38, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Listen +8, Spot +18, Swim +22
*Feats:* Awesome Blow, Epic Toughness, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 11
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 22-37 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Pliosaur, Colossal
*Colossal Animal
*Hit Dice:* 38d8+546 (717 hp)
*Initiative:* +4
*Speed:* Swim 60 ft.
*Armor Class:* 22 (-8 size, +20 natural), touch 2, flat-footed 22
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +28/+62
*Attack:* Bite +39 melee (6d8+27/19-20)
*Full Attack:* Bite +39 melee (6d8+27/19-20)
*Space/Reach:* 30 ft./20 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, swallow whole, worry 8d8+36
*Special Qualities:* Keen scent, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +35, Ref +25, Will +17
*Abilities:* Str 46, Dex 10, Con 34, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
*Skills:* Listen +13, Spot +30, Swim +26
*Feats:* Awesome Blow, Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness × 3, Epic Will, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 11
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 39-75 HD (Colossal)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_This swimming reptile has a sleek body propelled by four powerful  flippers and a comparatively short tail and neck. Its large head is  dominated by long jaws filled with huge, conical teeth._

Pliosaurs are aquatic reptiles related to the long-necked plesiosaurs such as _Elasmosaurus_.  While ordinary plesiosaurs had small heads and ate prey much smaller  than themselves, pliosaurs used their mighty jaws to tackle bigger prey,  including large fish, ammonites and other marine reptiles.

Known species of pliosaur ranged in size from as little as 5 feet long  from nose to tail to at least 50 feet in length. A typical Large-sized  pliosaur in between 10 and 12 feet long.

*COMBAT*

A pliosaur may try to eat creatures up to its own size, but prefers prey  smaller than itself. The reptile usually charges an opponent and  attempts to seize it in their jaws. Small and weak prey are normally  swallowed whole once a pliosaur has them in its grip. It uses its worry  special attack against more formidable prey, literally trying to shake  its opponent into pieces.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A pliosaur can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. 

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a pliosaur must hit an opponent of up to one size smaller with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can try to swallow the foe the following round.

*Keen Scent (Ex):* A pliosaur can notice creatures by scent in a 180-foot radius, and can sense blood in the water at ranges of up to a mile.

*Swallow Whole (Ex):* A pliosaur can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of up to two sizes smaller by making a successful grapple check.

The swallowed creature takes 1d10+5 points of bludgeoning damage and 6 points of acid damage per round from the pliosaur’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 45 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

A Large pliosaur gizzard can hold 2 Small, 8 Tiny, 32 Diminutive, or 128 Fine opponents.

*Worry (Ex):* Each round a pliosaur maintains a grapple, it shakes its prey violently, dealing it 2d8+12 damage.

*Skills:* A pliosaur has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2011)

I can find no fault with the stats so far.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2011)

Seems pretty good so far.

I'd also be ok with adding worry if you all like.


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

freyar said:


> Seems pretty good so far.




I'm having worries regarding the 2d6 bite. If we want them to fit with the existing Liopleurodon/Kronosaurus/Elasmosaurus they should have a 1d10 bite.



freyar said:


> I'd also be ok with adding worry if you all like.




Thus?

*Worry (Ex):* Each round a pliosaur maintains a grapple, it shakes its prey violently, dealing it 4d6+12 damage. (or 2d10+12?)


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## Cleon (Dec 13, 2011)

Cleon said:


> I'm having worries regarding the 2d6 bite. If we want them to fit with the existing Liopleurodon/Kronosaurus/Elasmosaurus they should have a 1d10 bite.
> 
> Thus?
> 
> *Worry (Ex):* Each round a pliosaur maintains a grapple, it shakes its prey violently, dealing it 4d6+12 damage. (or 2d10+12?)




Upon reflection, how about giving it a base 1d10 bite and a 2d8 damage Worry.

That'll match the 1d10 bite derived from the _Elasmosaurus_/_Liopleurodon_ and the 2d8 bite from the Dragon #112 Crocodilian.

Bite 1d10+9, Worry 2d8+12?


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## freyar (Dec 14, 2011)

That's ok by me, though I think we could just double bite damage to 2d10+2 Str.


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's ok by me, though I think we could just double bite damage to 2d10+2 Str.




The doubling appeals.


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## Cleon (Dec 16, 2011)

freyar said:


> That's ok by me, though I think we could just double bite damage to 2d10+2 Str.




2d10+12 just feels a bit too much for a 10 ft. sea lizard. It's a fair bit more than the bite damage of a Large Crocodile (2d6+12).

I prefer 2d8+12 for Worry, but if you both insist I'll go along.

In any case, I'll update the regular bite damage of the *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2011)

Cleon said:


> 2d10+12 just feels a bit too much for a 10 ft. sea lizard. It's a fair bit more than the bite damage of a Large Crocodile (2d6+12).
> 
> I prefer 2d8+12 for Worry, but if you both insist I'll go along.
> 
> In any case, I'll update the regular bite damage of the *Working Draft*.




I won't insist.  Your reasoning makes good sense.


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## Cleon (Dec 17, 2011)

Shade said:


> I won't insist.  Your reasoning makes good sense.




Updated the *Working Draft*.

Looks like we just need flavour text, then I can stat up the bigger versions.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2011)

Yes, looks good.  Any fossil fiend want to flavor this?


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## Cleon (Dec 19, 2011)

freyar said:


> Yes, looks good.  Any fossil fiend want to flavor this?




Let's see, how's this...

_This swimming reptile has a sleek body propelled by four powerful flippers and a comparatively short tail and neck. Its large head is dominated by long jaws filled with huge, conical teeth._

Pliosaurs are aquatic reptiles related to the long-necked plesiosaurs such as _Elasmosaurus_. While ordinary plesiosaurs had small heads and ate prey much smaller than themselves, pliosaurs used their mighty jaws yo tackle bigger prey, including large fish, ammonites and other marine reptiles.

Known species of pliosaur ranged in size from as little as 5 feet long from nose to tail to at least 50 feet in length. A typical Large-sized pliosaur in between 10 and 12 feet long.

*TACTICS*
A pliosaur may try to eat creatures up to its own size, but prefers prey smaller than itself. The reptile usually charges an opponent and attempts to seize it in their jaws. Small and weak prey are normally swallowed whole once a pliosaur has them in its grip. It uses its worry special attack against more formidable prey, literally trying to shake its opponent into pieces.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

Do you mean "ordinary plesiosaurs" vs "pliosaurs" in the 2nd flavor sentence there?  As is, you have pliosaurs vs pliosaurs.


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## Cleon (Dec 20, 2011)

freyar said:


> Do you mean "ordinary plesiosaurs" vs "pliosaurs" in the 2nd flavor sentence there?  As is, you have pliosaurs vs pliosaurs.




Dang it, it should be plesiosaurs. I spent a lot of time fiddling with that sentence, and the wrong marine reptile got left in the wash.

Easy enough to edit.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2011)

It looks pretty good with that change.


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## Shade (Dec 21, 2011)

"their mighty jaws yo tackle bigger prey"

Yo, tackle that prey!  

Transferred to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Dec 21, 2011)

Shade said:


> "their mighty jaws yo tackle bigger prey"
> 
> Yo, tackle that prey!




Don't you know all Pliosaurs are Pirates? 

Odd, I remember noticing that "yo" typo when I was correcting the "ordinary pliosaurs" mistake and was sure I'd corrected it.



Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.




I'd add Huge, Gargantuan, and _possibly_ Colossal Pliosaurs to the stats.

I'm thinking the bigger versions should lose their land speed, and might have a few other tweaks.

 Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Dec 22, 2011)

Why not just add an underbar about the land speed and otherwise have normal advancement?


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## Cleon (Dec 22, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not just add an underbar about the land speed and otherwise have normal advancement?




Cause I want to stat them up, that's why.

Besides, as well as a speed tweak I'm tempted to modify their other stats a bit to more closely match the _Dragon #318_ Liopleurodon, such as natural armour or Wisdom.

Besides, having fully statted Pliosaurs is an act of generosity to any DM who wants to use them.


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## freyar (Dec 24, 2011)

So split out one to use as lipleurodon later?


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## Cleon (Dec 24, 2011)

freyar said:


> So split out one to use as lipleurodon later?




I prefer having them all under one entry, like the different sizes of Tojanida or Monstrous Spider.

I've already put the outlines in the *Working Draft*.

The main decision to make is what feats to give them.

It should be pretty obvious I don't want to give the Colossal version seven Toughness feats like the Dragon #318 _Liopleurodon_. 

How about:

*Huge Pliosaur** (4 feats)**:* Great Fortitude, Improved Critical (bite), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)

*Gargantuan Pliosaur (7 feats + 1 epic feat):* Awesome Blow, *Epic Toughness*, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)

Not so sure what to do about the Colossal version. Since it's _possibly_ an exaggeratedly large & powerful creature I'm tempted to give it the Devastating Critical chain, for a DC 47 save vs death. That _might_ be a bit too nasty though.

*Colossal Pliosaur** #1 (7 feats + 6 epic feats)**:* Awesome Blow, Cleave, *Devastating Critical*, *Epic Toughness*, Great Cleave, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), *Overwhelming Critical*, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)

Could just give it Improved Initiative (like Liopleurodon) and a straightforward mix of save- and hp-boosting epic feats (Epic Reflexes, two Epic Toughnesses and an Epic Will):

*Colossal Pliosaur** #2 (7 feats + 6 epic feats)**:*  Awesome Blow, *Epic Reflexes*, *Epic Toughness × 3*, *Epic Will*, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite)

Hmm... for everyday use I prefer #2.


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## freyar (Dec 25, 2011)

I believe the monstrous spider and tojanida have nonstandard advancement.  I just looked through these stats quickly, but I think these are all just advanced in a standard way.  If we're going to spell out all the stats, precedent is for nonstandard advancement.  So is there some fudging of the abilities you want to do?  Like not decrease Dex quite so much or something?


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## Cleon (Dec 27, 2011)

freyar said:


> I believe the monstrous spider and tojanida have nonstandard advancement.  I just looked through these stats quickly, but I think these are all just advanced in a standard way.  If we're going to spell out all the stats, precedent is for nonstandard advancement.  So is there some fudging of the abilities you want to do?  Like not decrease Dex quite so much or something?




I was going to increase the NA advancement above standard rates and see what I fancy after that.

The _Liopleurodon_ has +20 NA, 4 more than standard advancement, so I'm thinking another +1 at Huge (AC 17), +2 at Gargantuan (AC 19) and +4 at Colossal (AC 22)?

EDIT: Although I'm also tempted by +3 (AC 21) at Colossal, although it doesn't match the Dragon #318 Liopleurodon. It just seems more symmetrical.


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2011)

Why not change the ability advancement a bit too?  Changing NA doesn't seem like very much.


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## Cleon (Dec 31, 2011)

freyar said:


> Why not change the ability advancement a bit too?  Changing NA doesn't seem like very much.




What ability changes do you suggest?

The Dragon #318 _Liopleurodon_ has Con 34, so +2 Con at Gargantuan, +4 Con at Colossal?

I'd also limit each size's Advancement so it doesn't spill up into the next category - e.g. Large Pliosaur has Advancement 6-9 HD (Large) - so they match the format of Monstrous Vermin.

Oh, and were the previously proposed feats OK by you?


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

I think the feats are fine.  

I'll agree to the Con changes and definitely to the advancement limits.  That'll work.


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## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think the feats are fine.
> 
> I'll agree to the Con changes and definitely to the advancement limits.  That'll work.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

Done?


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## freyar (Jan 2, 2012)

If everyone else checks off on it, sure.


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## Cleon (Jan 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> If everyone else checks off on it, sure.




The only thing I'm wondering about is whether to increase the base damage of Gargantuan and Colossal version's Worry special attack so it's in step with the increased bite damage or swap the Improved Natural Attack (bite) feat for something else.

Currently, the Gargantuan/Colossal ones do the same dice damage with Bite as the do Worry.

Might be easier just giving it Cleave instead.

EDIT: Or we could rewrite the Worry to specify the damage is derived from the bite damage, like this:

*Worry (Ex):* Each round a pliosaur maintains a grapple, it can shake its prey violently, dealing damage equal to its bite attack increased by one damage step, plus double its Strength bonus. For example, a Large pliosaur (1d10 bite, +6 Str bonus) does 2d8+12 when worrying an opponent, a Colossal pliosaur with 6d8+27 bite damage does 8d8+36 worry damage.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2012)

The working draft looks good to me.

I think Worry implies bite unless otherwise specified.


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2012)

The new worry is fine if you want to spell it out that much.


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## Cleon (Jan 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> The working draft looks good to me.
> 
> I think Worry implies bite unless otherwise specified.




In that case I'll just bump the Worry damage up to match.

 Updating the *Working Draft*.

Done?


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## Shade (Jan 4, 2012)

Updated Homebrews.

I think we're finished.

Are the following worthy of a unique conversion?

*Proterosuchian/Pseudosuchian*
Proterosuchians and pseudosuchians are archosaurs from the Triassic. They are crocodilelike in appearance, although they have a more erect gait and occasionally rise up on their hind legs. They are treated as crocodilians of terrestrial form with a 12” move on land. They have up to 6 HD.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).


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## Cleon (Jan 4, 2012)

Shade said:


> Updated Homebrews.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## freyar (Jan 5, 2012)

Could we also give them some sort of crush ability having to do with rearing up?  These are kind of a stretch otherwise, maybe.


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## Cleon (Jan 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> Could we also give them some sort of crush ability having to do with rearing up?  These are kind of a stretch otherwise, maybe.




Rearing up? Where did you get that idea from?

If you want a special attack I'd think Worry to accompany the SRD Crocs' Improved Grab, or a disease-bearing bite, would make more sense.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2012)

It says they rise up on hind legs sometimes.  

Worry is good.  I'm partial to that.


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> It says they rise up on hind legs sometimes.
> 
> Worry is good.  I'm partial to that.




Methinks It's more likely they lift their front legs off the ground to run faster rather than rearing to crush their victims.


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## Cleon (Jan 7, 2012)

Time for a Working Draft?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

If that's Burst of Speed, then I'd be all for it.  

Sure, draft away.


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

*Proterosuchian Working Draft*

*Proterosuchian*
Medium Animal
*Hit Dice: *3d8+9 (22 hp)
*Initiative: *+1
*Speed: *30 ft. (6 squares)
*Armor Class: *15 (+1 Dex, +4 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 14
*Base Attack/Grapple: *+2/+6
*Attack: *Bite +6 melee (1d8+6) or tail slap +6 melee (1d12+6)
*Full Attack: *Bite +6 melee (1d8+6) or tail slap +6 melee (1d12+6)
*Space/Reach: *5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Burst of speed, improved grab, worry
*Special Qualities: *Low-light vision, scent
*Saves: *Fort +6, Ref +4, Will +2
*Abilities: *Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
*Skills: *Hide +8*, Listen +4, Move Silently +6, Spot +4, Swim +8
*Feats: *Alertness, Power Attack
*Environment:* Warm land
*Organization:* Solitary or group (2-12)
*Challenge Rating: *2
*Advancement: *4–5 HD (Medium), 6-9 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment: *—

_A creature resembling a short-tailed crocodile with a robust body  that stands on four stocky legs. Its head is large and deep, with  powerful spike-toothed jaws._

Proterosuchians are extinct relatives of modern crocodiles and  alligators. They came in many forms and included both aquatic and  terrestrial species. This entry describes an erythrosuchid, the apex  predator among the proterosuchians. Erythrosuchians are fierce predators  whose large heads resemble those of predatory dinosaurs. Their legs do  not sprawl like a lizard, but are held under the body, allowing  the  animal to stand almost erect. The other proterosuchians had long tails,  slimmer bodies, a sprawling gait and more modest sized heads. The other  proterosuchians use the _Monster Manual_ entries for crocodiles or monitor lizards, depending on whether they dwell on land or in water.

These apex predator proterosuchians ranged in size from 5 feet long to  over 15 feet. This entry describes an average sized proterosuchian such  as _Shansisuchus_. It is roughly 7 feet long, stands about 2 feet tall, and weighs 200 pounds or more.

COMBAT

A proterosuchian prefers to ambush its prey, but will stalk its victims  if it needs to. They move with a sudden burst of speed to reach their  intended victim, then try to grab their opponent in their jaws and worry  them to death.

*Burst of Speed (Ex):* Up to three times per hour, a proterosuchian can increase its land speed to 60 ft. for 1 round as a free action. During this round, it gains a +2 dodge bonus to its Armor Class.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a proterosuchian must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, the proterosuchian establishes a hold on the opponent with its mouth and can worry.

*Worry (Ex):* Each round a proterosuchian maintains a grapple, it shakes its prey violently, dealing its bite damage.

*Skills:* Proterosuchians have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Move Silently and Swim checks. *In forested or overgrown areas, the Hide bonus improves to +8.


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## Cleon (Jan 8, 2012)

I'm wondering what swimming ability to give it. I was thinking we  could either give it a +4 racial bonus to Swim like a Lizardfolk, or a  20 ft. or 30 ft. Swim speed like an SRD Lizard or Monitor Lizard.

To decide that, we should decide what ancient reptile we're using as a model. "Proterosuchia" is a catch-all term for primitive archosaurs that isn't used in modern paleontology. "Pseudosuchia" is an even vaguer taxonomic term.

Anyhow, we've got a number of families of ancient archosaur to choose from that are (or were) considered to be Proterosuchia...

The family Proterosuchidae have slender heads and long tails and likely would have swum as well as monitor lizards do, and at least some of these probably ambushed prey from the water. There's also a very crocodile-like family, the Proterochampsidae.

There's also the Erythosuchidae, a family which tend towards big heads and short tails, like _Shansisuchus_ or _Erythrosuchus_. These don't look like they're built for swimming. They had a semi-erect gait and were evolving towards walking on their toes, meaning they were terrestrial creatures.

I'm thinking we should use the Erythrosuchids as a model, since the Dragon #112 article says the primitive archosaurs in this entry are are "of terrestrial form", and the two previous families seem to favor water.

So, I'd fancy giving it a +4 to Swim but no swim speed. We could mention the other families or "Protosuchian", and say they have the same stats as the SRD Monitor Lizards and Crocodiles. 

Speaking of the SRD Monitor Lizard, I'm wondering whether we should imitate the SRD Monitor Lizard and give them a +4 racial bonus to Hide checks (*improved to +8 in forested or overgrown areas) together with a +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2012)

I agree with the +4 to Swim, and I lean toward the Hide and Move Silently bonuses as well.


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## Cleon (Jan 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> I agree with the +4 to Swim, and I lean toward the Hide and Move Silently bonuses as well.




Hmm, it's already got a pretty good +8 in Hide without a racial bonus. I'm thinking we should change the Skill Focus (Hide) to another feat and juggle a skill point or two from Hide to Spot and/or Move Silently.

Updating *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jan 13, 2012)

Power Attack seems kind of appropriate.


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## Cleon (Jan 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> Power Attack seems kind of appropriate.




Power Attack works for me.

Updating *Working Draft*.

Do you think we should give it the Scent special quality?


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2012)

You know more about these than I do, but I'd suppose so.


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## Cleon (Jan 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> You know more about these than I do, but I'd suppose so.




I'm tempted too.

The SRD Monitor Lizard lacks scent, although it should really have it.

Hmm, real-world crocodiles have a good sense of smell, although I suspect it may not be quite as good as some monitor lizards which have larger olfactory organs and specialized air-scenting tongues.

Heck, we might as well give it the quality.

Updating *Working Draft*.


----------



## freyar (Jan 17, 2012)

CR 2 and advancement look good.  So does environment, but you know more about that than I also.


----------



## Shade (Jan 18, 2012)

I'm happy with everything in the Working Draft.   Throw in some flavor, simmer for 3-4 minutes, and allow to cool and we're ready to eat.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> CR 2 and advancement look good.  So does environment, but you know more about that than I also.




Hah! I've got him fooled. I just make something up after looking something up on Wikipedia.

Oh My Gawd! Wikipedia Isn't Working!! How shall I feign knowledge know!!! 



You know, I don't much care for the 3E croc's organisation of colony (6-10). These things are derivatives of the AD&D Crocodile, which appeared in groups of 3-24 (standard) or 2-12 (giant). I prefer the latter.

So, how about making it "Organization: Solitary of group (2-12)"?


----------



## Cleon (Jan 18, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'm happy with everything in the Working Draft.   Throw in some flavor, simmer for 3-4 minutes, and allow to cool and we're ready to eat.




Any preferences for the flavour?


----------



## freyar (Jan 18, 2012)

2-12 for the org is fine.

For flavor: I prefer proterosuchian with garam masala and ginger....


Not really.  I'm a vegetarian.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> 2-12 for the org is fine.




I'll include that when I next update the *Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> For flavor: I prefer proterosuchian with garam masala and ginger....
> 
> Not really.  I'm a vegetarian.




Well they probably end up tasting like chicken however you spice 'em.

_A creature resembling a short-tailed crocodile with a robust body that stands on four stocky legs. Its head is large and deep, with powerful spike-toothed jaws._

Proterosuchians are extinct relatives of modern crocodiles and alligators. They came in many forms and included both aquatic and terrestrial species. This entry describes an erythrosuchid, the apex predator among the proterosuchians. Erythrosuchians are fierce predators whose large heads resemble those of predatory dinosaurs. Their legs do not sprawl like a lizard, but are held under the body, allowing  the animal to stand almost erect. The other proterosuchians had long tails, slimmer bodies, a sprawling gait and more modest sized heads. The other proterosuchians use the _Monster Manual_ entries for crocodiles or monitor lizards, depending on whether they dwell on land or in water.

These apex predator proterosuchians ranged in size from 5 feet long to over 15 feet. This entry describes an average sized proterosuchian such as _Shansisuchus_. It is roughly 7 feet long, stands about 2 feet tall, and weighs 200 pounds or more.

COMBAT

A proterosuchian prefers to ambush its prey, but will stalk its victims if it needs to. They move with a sudden burst of speed to reach their intended victim, then try to grab their opponent in their jaws and worry them to death.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 19, 2012)

By the way, I just noticed we've already got the large version of this critter in the Creature Catalog as *Archosaur, Erythrosuchus*.

It's different enough I'm OK continuing with the current conversion.


----------



## freyar (Jan 19, 2012)

Yes, it seems fine.


----------



## Shade (Jan 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, it seems fine.




No objections here.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> No objections here.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

Looks like they're ready for eatin'.


----------



## freyar (Jan 23, 2012)

Yup, they seem done.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yup, they seem done.




Fine by me.

You know, since Erythrosuchians have short tails (unlike most Proterosuchians) I'm wondering why we're keeping their tail-slap attack. I guess it does no harm.


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2012)

Transferred to Homebrews.

Next!

*Placodont*
Placodonts are Triassic reptiles that live in and near the sea and eat molluscs. Some forms are encased in bony armor and may be treated as marine chelonians. Others are more lizardlike in form, having a long broad tail and limbs that are less flipper-like. These may also be treated as chelonians, except that they are 3” faster on land, have an armor class of 5, and are 50% longer. Either form may have up to 4 HD.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).

Placodont - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Cleon (Jan 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.
> 
> Next!
> 
> ...




I reckon we need something halfway between a crocodile and a turtle as far as the stats go.

Maybe give it an improved Hold Breath, so they can dive deeper and longer while foraging for shellfish.


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I reckon we need something halfway between a crocodile and a turtle as far as the stats go.
> 
> Maybe give it an improved Hold Breath, so they can dive deeper and longer while foraging for shellfish.




That sounds about right, and the Stormwrack snapping turtle has Hold Breath.  

*Snapping Turtle*
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 2d8+4 (13 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 5 ft. (1 square), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, -1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-2
Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Bite +3 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Spot +6, Swim +9
Feats: Improved Natural ArmorB, Weapon Focus (bite)
Environment: Temperate marshes
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 3-4 HD (Small)
Level Adjustment: -

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a snapping turtle must hit an opponent of up to Medium size with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Hold Breath (Ex): A snapping turtle can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical snapping turtle, this is 120 rounds, or 12 minutes.

Skills: A snapping turtle has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> That sounds about right, and the Stormwrack snapping turtle has Hold Breath.
> 
> *Snapping Turtle*
> Small Animal
> ...




That looks a pretty good start. We can cut the Improved Natural Armor and swap the Weapon Focus for some other feat - I fancy Endurance.

The Placodons have a better swim speed - I'd make it Swim 30 ft. rather than the 40 ft. or so that the original stat's 15" swim suggests, since placodonts were so heavily built it's unlikely they were fast swimmers.

Better check the _Dragon #112_ Dinosaur article's stats for the "Chelonians" it mentions, to see what they're talking about...*CHELONIAN, MARINE  *FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 3”//18”
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 7HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Capsize boat
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Shell
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
SIZE: S to L, (2 to 12’ long)

They vary with size as shown below:

*   Hit Dice        . Damage          . Size*
to ¼                . . . Nil            . . S(2-3)
 ½                   . . . . . 1 . .. M(4)
 1                  . . .. . 1d2 . . L(5)
 2                  . . .. . 1d3              . . L(6)
 3                  . . .. . 1d4              . . L(7)
       4-5 . .. .                1d6           . . L(8-10)
       6-7                . .. . 2d4          . . L(11-12)
​  Aquatic chelonians, also known as sea turtles, may be found in Cretaceous settings as well as in modern ones, with the difference that Cretaceous forms may exceed 3 HD in size. Though large, they are inoffensive eaters of sea grasses and jellyfish. Modern leatherback and hawksbill turtles are typical, while Archelon is an extremely large Cretaceous form. If attacked, they usually flee; if this fails, they retaliate with a bite. Chelonians that are not attacking or swimming have an armor class of 2.​So, we're going from Small (2 foot long) to Large (8-10 feet long) for the Placodonts. That matches neatly with the fossil record.

I'm thinking we should have separate stat blocks for each size like we did for the Pliosaurs, and give the Large version a Capsize special attack.


----------



## freyar (Jan 26, 2012)

I don't see much support for capsize, and something Large shouldn't be able to capsize much of a boat anyway.

And why do we need to be so fond of non-standard advancement?  I'd rather choose a size and just list the advancement.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> I don't see much support for capsize, and something Large shouldn't be able to capsize much of a boat anyway.
> 
> And why do we need to be so fond of non-standard advancement?  I'd rather choose a size and just list the advancement.




I'm not that set on Capsize, but I thought if we go for separate stat-blocks we'd want something to distinguish them from standard advancement and Capsize seemed a good pick, since it's listed as the Placodont's special attack.

We should consider Achelon when coming up with the stats. The _Stormwrack_ version is Huge-sized, 12 HD, +15 NA and Str 28, Dex 7, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7, and has Hold Breath with a 10 × Con multiple.

So, something like this for the Placodont?

*Advancement #1
*1 HD Small
2-3 HD Medium
4-6 HD Large

*Advancement #2
*1-2 HD Small
3-4 HD Medium
5-8 HD Large

I don't think they should be as vicious as a Snapping Turtle. I'm leaning towards Advancement #2 at the moment, since Crocodiles and Monitor Lizards are 3 HD Medium-sized animals.


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm leaning toward #2 as well, and agree that we don't need nonstandard advancement.


----------



## freyar (Jan 27, 2012)

#2 advancement works.  I would rather have standard advancement; if we want to put in capsize, we can just use an underbar about the largest ones.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> #2 advancement works.  I would rather have standard advancement; if we want to put in capsize, we can just use an underbar about the largest ones.




Or do a Huge-sized Dire Placodont with a capsize attack that specializing in tipping over rowboats and crunching heavily armored adventurers. 

Guess I can start a Working Draft then.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

*Placodont Working Draft*

*Placodont*
Small Animal
Hit Dice: 1d8+2 (6 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 square), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (+1 size, -1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-3
Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: Bite +2 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: ---
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +1, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
Skills: Hide +6, Spot +2, Swim +9
Feats: Endurance
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 2 HD (Small); 3-4 HD (Medium); 5-8 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ---

_A broad-bodied reptile resembling a cross between a turtle and a marine iguana. It has no shell, but its heavy body is armoured with small bony plates. A long, flattened tail and short legs with webbed feet suggest it's faster in the water than on land._

Placodonts are primitive marine reptiles that specialize in eating shellfish, which they crush with the broad, flat teeth in their mouths. They are slow-moving creatures with poor natural armaments, so rely on size, armor or stealth to protect them from predators. Placodonts live in shallow tropical waters, where they do not have to dive deep to find food and big predators are unlikely to venture due to the risk of them being beached on a shoal.

The various species of placodont range between 3 feet and 10 feet in size (nose to tail). The typical example detailed above is about 3 or 4 feet long and weighs from 10 to 50 pounds. Placodonts tend to be small, and few species grow larger than a human. A placodont's shape and weight varies a lot - some species have lizard-like bodies, others are as broad as turtles, but most are somewhere in-between.

*COMBAT*

If a Placodont can't hide or flee from a threat it will bite in self-defense.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A placodont can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 10 times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.


----------



## Cleon (Jan 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Don't you know all Pliosaurs are Pirates?




I just realized I forgot to put Hold Breath in the Generic Pliosaurs Special Qualities line.

Duh!

Updating the *Working Draft*.


----------



## freyar (Jan 30, 2012)

This looks fine so far.  The ranks seem like they should go in something like Hide, since they seem like they'd be prey animals mostly.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> This looks fine so far.  The ranks seem like they should go in something like Hide, since they seem like they'd be prey animals mostly.




Hmm, well Placodonts started out in the early Triassic, when there (probably) weren't many predators large enough to eat them. We're statting up an "armoured" version here though, so I guess it had to deal with large sharks or giant ichthyosaurs like _Shonisaurus_. The Hide skill and a tough skin would seem the most effective defensive technique for them - they certainly couldn't outrun or outswim such predators.

Hmm, an AC 15 isn't a terribly effective defence though, maybe we should give them a bit of DR/— or a "teeth-shattering hide", maybe restricted toweapons with low hardness. It'd give them _something_ a bit interesting.

We could modify this SQ from my Thyreophoran conversion:

*Weapon-Breaking Armour (Ex):* A _Gastonia's_ armour is so thick, rough and hard that it can damage weapons that strike it. Any weapon that hits the dinosaur takes 1d6+5 points of damage unless the attacker succeeds at a DC 18 Reflex save. The damage the weapon takes can not exceed the damage it rolled against the _Gastonia_. If a natural weapon hits the _Gastonia_, the attacking creature takes the indicated damage. Weapons that are objects, such as most handheld and missile weapons, take half damage as per the standard rules. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## freyar (Feb 2, 2012)

That seems just a bit too much.  AC 15 may not be terribly effective, but it's ok in a pinch.  Hence Hide.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 2, 2012)

freyar said:


> That seems just a bit too much.  AC 15 may not be terribly effective, but it's ok in a pinch.  Hence Hide.




How about a bit of damage reduction then? I posted a homebrew Pangolin with DR [FONT=&quot]2/–[/FONT] which no-one seemed to mind.

Basically, I would like to give them _something_ to make them a bit more interesting.

Oh, and I should get around to updating the *Working Draft* with Hide. I think I'll give it a point or two of Spot as well.


----------



## freyar (Feb 5, 2012)

Can you find me another dino-like critter in the CC or something official with DR?  If you want to reflect the "armor plating" of the critter, that's NA.  We can increase that if you like.  But DR is usually supernatural or the result of unusual anatomy.  I'd rather bump NA.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> Can you find me another dino-like critter in the CC or something official with DR?  If you want to reflect the "armor plating" of the critter, that's NA.  We can increase that if you like.  But DR is usually supernatural or the result of unusual anatomy.  I'd rather bump NA.




You're not going to let a little thing like lacking a precedent get in the way of a beautiful idea, will you?

Someone has to be first, and it might as well be us!

Well, except it's hardly the first time we've given a critter DR.

Let's see, we gave the Armadillephant DR 5/-. They're big and scaly, is that dinosaur enough for you.


----------



## Shade (Feb 7, 2012)

I could've sworn I'd seen DR on a dino before, but I can't find one.  I have certainly seen it on a mundane creature, though.

Still, if the Archelon and Ankylosaurus don't have it, I'm not sure why these fellas should.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> I could've sworn I'd seen DR on a dino before, but I can't find one.  I have certainly seen it on a mundane creature, though.
> 
> Still, if the Archelon and Ankylosaurus don't have it, I'm not sure why these fellas should.




I think it's more a question of they _should_ but they _don't_.


----------



## Shade (Feb 9, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I think it's more a question of they _should_ but they _don't_.




No arguments here.  If I were doing a Dragon Magazine article revising the dinos, I'd do it in a heartbeat.   But since we're not in the habit of revising what already has official 3.5 stats...


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

Shade said:


> No arguments here.  If I were doing a Dragon Magazine article revising the dinos, I'd do it in a heartbeat.   But since we're not in the habit of revising what already has official 3.5 stats...




So, are we just adding some flavour to them and calling it a day?


----------



## freyar (Feb 10, 2012)

If we remove the question marks in red, I guess so.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> If we remove the question marks in red, I guess so.




But that's red-hot, quizzical flavour.

I might remove them if you propose some cooler flavour such as a description and background.


----------



## freyar (Feb 13, 2012)

I meant in feats, environment, and CR.

Ummm, I don't know much about these, unfortunately.  In fact, really only what you've said in this thread!


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> I meant in feats, environment, and CR.
> 
> Ummm, I don't know much about these, unfortunately.  In fact, really only what you've said in this thread!




Well, we might as well keep it simple._A broad-bodied reptile resembling a cross between a turtle and a marine iguana. It has no shell, but its heavy body is armoured with small bony plates. A long, flattened tail and short legs with webbed feet suggest it's faster in the water than on land._

Placodonts are primitive marine reptiles that specialize in eating shellfish, which they crush with the broad, flat teeth in their mouths. They are slow-moving creatures with poor natural armaments, so rely on size, armor or stealth to protect them from predators. Placodonts live in shallow tropical waters, where they do not have to dive deep to find food and big predators are unlikely to venture due to the risk of them being beached on a shoal.

The various species of placodont range between 3 feet and 10 feet in size (nose to tail). The typical example detailed above is about 3 or 4 feet long with a weight from 10 to 30 pounds. Placodonts tend to be small, and few species grow larger than a human. A placodont's shape and weight varies a lot - some species have  lizard-like bodies, others are as broad as turtles, but most are  somewhere in-between.​I'm wondering about cutting out the weight, since many marine animals don't have it and it's a difficult thing to estimate.


----------



## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm wondering about cutting out the weight, since many marine animals don't have it and it's a difficult thing to estimate.




I'm happy to leave it off.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'm happy to leave it off.




I think the 10-30 pound weight is a reasonable guesstimate for a yard long Placodont, based on a comparison to the weights of iguanas, crocodiles, and turtles.

A 3 foot long marine iguana is about 3-4 pounds, a crocodile 5-8 pounds, and a turtle around a 100 pounds (but possibly up to 180). Only one species of Placodont is as "round" as a turtle, most are of a similar shape to an iguana but several times wider. They also have armored skin like a croc, which might make them heavier.

Come to think of it, I added an "or 4" to the length but didn't adjust the weight. If we do add a weight I think we'd better either cut the "or 4" or increase the upper weight limit to match.

e.g.

*#1:* The typical example detailed above is about 3 feet long and weighs from 10 to 30 pounds.
*#2:* The typical example detailed above is about 3 or 4 feet long and weighs from 10 to 50 pounds.

I prefer #2, but what about you?


----------



## Shade (Feb 14, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I prefer #2, but what about you?




I'm not terribly bothered by whatever you do,
But said the Cat in the Hat, I prefer Thing 2.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 14, 2012)

Shade said:


> I'm not terribly bothered by whatever you do,
> But said the Cat in the Hat, I prefer Thing 2.




Just steer clear of the green eggs. The ham's all right, but those eggs do your guts no good.

Updating the *Working Draft*.


----------



## Shade (Feb 16, 2012)

It looks good.  Ready to transfer to Homebrews and move on?


----------



## Cleon (Feb 17, 2012)

Shade said:


> It looks good.  Ready to transfer to Homebrews and move on?




I'm happy to proceed to the next beast.


----------



## Shade (Feb 21, 2012)

Transferred to Homebrews.

Anything worth doing with these?

*CHELONIAN, MARINE*
FREQUENCY: Common
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 3"//18"
HIT DICE: 1 hp to 7HD
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (bite)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil to 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Capsize boat
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Shell
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
SIZE: S to L, (2 to 12’ long)

Aquatic chelonians, also known as sea turtles, may be found in Cretaceous settings as well as in modern ones, with the difference that Cretaceous forms may exceed 3 HD in size. Though large, they are inoffensive eaters of sea grasses and jellyfish. Modern leatherback and hawksbill turtles are typical, while Archelon is extremely large Cretaceous form. If attacked, they usually flee; if this fails, they retaliate with a bite. Chelonians that are not attacking or swimming have an armor class of 2. They vary with size as shown below:

HD: to ¼ ½ 1 2 3 4-5 6-7
DAMAGE: Nil 1 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-6 2-8
SIZE: S (2-3) M(4) L(5) L(6) L(7) L(8-10) L(11-12)

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #112 (1986).


----------



## Cleon (Feb 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.
> 
> Anything worth doing with these?
> 
> *CHELONIAN, MARINE*




These are pretty much ordinary Sea Turtles. If they don't already have 3rd edition stats I suppose we could write them up.


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2012)

Don't see a sea turtle converted to 3e in Echohawk's index.  (There are some earlier edition giant sea turtles.)  Still, I'd rather convert those and say they include prehistoric versions and then save the name "chelonian" for something appropriately pulpy, like the Dr Who monsters.


----------



## Cleon (Feb 26, 2012)

freyar said:


> Don't see a sea turtle converted to 3e in Echohawk's index.  (There are some earlier edition giant sea turtles.)  Still, I'd rather convert those and say they include prehistoric versions and then save the name "chelonian" for something appropriately pulpy, like the Dr Who monsters.




Yes, if I recall correctly the Archelon has 3E stats in *Stormwrack*.

So, are you suggesting we do a "Sea Turtle" conversion and have it go up to Huge size?

Let's see... according to Echohawk's index the Dragon #112 is the only extant version or a "regular" marine turtle, although there's a Giant Sea Turtle in a number of sources - 1E Monster Manual; 2E Greyhawk MC, MC Annual #2.

Do you want to include the Huge/Gargantuan Giant Sea Turtles in this conversion as well?


----------



## freyar (Mar 1, 2012)

Yes, you understand me right, and I'm fine with going to Huge or Gargantuan.


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, you understand me right, and I'm fine with going to Huge or Gargantuan.




Sounds like a plan.


----------



## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> Sounds like a plan.




Fine! I'll start a working draft using the Snapping Turtle as a foundation.

I'm thinking we'd be better off having separate stat blocks for standard "Sea Turtles" and Huge+ "Giant Sea Turtles".


----------



## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

*Sea Turtle Working Draft*

*Sea Turtle*
Small Animal
*Hit Dice:* 1d8+1 (5 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 40 ft.
*Armor Class:* 17 (+1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 12,
flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +0/-5
*Attack:* Bite +1 melee (1d4-1)
*Full Attack:* Bite +1 melee (1d4-1)
*Space/Reach:* 5 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Fortification, hold breath, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 8, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Spot +5, Swim +9
*Feats:* Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 1/3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 2 HD (Small); 3-4 HD (Medium); 4-7 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Sea Turtle, Giant*
Huge Animal
*Hit Dice:* 8d8+48 (84 hp)
*Initiative:* -2
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 40 ft.
*Armor Class:* 18 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +12 natural), touch 6,
 flat-footed 18
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+23
*Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d6+13)
*Full Attack:* Bite +14 melee (2d6+13)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft./10 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Capsize
*Special Qualities:* Fortification, hold breath, low-light vision, withdraw
*Saves:* Fort +12, Ref +4, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 28, Dex 7, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Spot +12, Swim +19
*Feats:* Endurance, Snatch, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 9-14 HD (Huge); 15-24 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —


_A turtle with a flattened body and powerful fore-flippers._

Sea turtles are common marine reptiles. Most of them are omnivores or  herbivores and mainly eating seaweed, but there are carnivorous  varieties that eat fish or jellyfish. A sea turtle lives its life in the  water, except for when the females crawl onto sandy beaches to bury  their eggs. Humanoids often hunt sea turtles. Their flesh and eggs are  quite tasty, and their shells can be fashioned into implements or  ornaments.

The statistics presented here describe a small sea turtle, 2 to 3 feet  long and weighing 70 to 100 pounds. Some kinds of sea turtle grow much  larger than that.

*COMBAT*

Sea turtles are rarely aggressive, preferring to swim away from opponents. They bite if threatened.

*Fortification (Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is  scored on a sea turtle there is a 25% chance that the special  attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally, similar to the  effect of armor enchanted with the Light Fortification quality.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A sea turtle can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 10 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning. For a typical sea turtle, this is 130 rounds, or 13 minutes.

*Skills:* A sea turtle has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. A sea turtle can use its Dexterity modifier or its Strength modifier on Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Giant Sea Turtle
*These  relatives of ordinary sea turtles are so enormous they can live  comfortably in cold waters. Giant sea turtles are omnivores, preferring  to eat plants and small animals. They do not usually hunt prey the size  of most humanoids. These reptiles are just as tasty as their  normal-sized cousins, and their shells are so huge they can be used as  roofs or boats.

 A giant sea turtle typically measures from 20 to 30 feet from snout to  tail, with a shell from 15  to 25 feet in diameter, and weighs 30,000  pounds or more. Old specimens often reach lengths of 50 or 60 feet.

*COMBAT*

 Giant sea turtles are basically non-aggressive, but fight fiercely if  sorely provoked. If a giant sea turtle feels bothered by an intruder, it  normally withdraws into its shell and waits to be left alone. Should a  persistent enemy annoy or injure it, the turtle will bite with its  deadly, tearing beak. An angry giant sea turtle may capsizes a ship by  surfacing underneath it. 	

*Capsize (Ex):* A submerged giant turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long.

*Fortification (Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a giant sea turtle there is a 75% chance that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally, similar to the effect of armor enchanted with the Moderate Fortification quality. This chance increases to 100% when the turtle withdraws its appendages into its shell.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A giant sea turtle can hold its breath for a number  of rounds equal to 10 × its Constitution score before it risks drowning.  For a typical sea turtle, this is 230 rounds, or 23 minutes.

*Withdraw (Ex):* A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs to  protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take  any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover.  Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle heavy fortification, giving it 100% resistance to critical hits.

*Skills:* A giant sea turtle has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to  perform some special action or avoid a hazard. A sea turtle can use its  Dexterity modifier or its Strength modifier on Swim checks. It can  always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or  endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims  in a straight line.


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2012)

Should the giant sea turtle be alot tougher than the similar-sized archelon?   Because as it stands, it is quite tougher (Str and Con).  

For comparison...

Archelon
Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 12d8+84 (138 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 10 ft. (2 squares), swim 20 ft.
Armor Class: 21 (-2 size, -2 Dex, +15 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+26
Attack: Bite +16 melee (2d6+13)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (2d6+13)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +16, Ref +2, Will +5
Abilities: Str 28, Dex 7, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7
Skills: Listen +11, Spot +6, Swim +17
Feats: Great Fortitude, Toughness (x4)
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 13-24 HD (Huge); 25-36 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Cleon said:


> *Sea Turtle*




Dang it, I mucked up the Con and Str. I wanted them to be based on a downscaled Archelon.

Easy enough to change.

Also, several of the earlier D&D versions of Giant Turtles had a Capsize attack, so I fancy adding that to the Giant version.

Updating *Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Mar 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> Should the giant sea turtle be alot tougher than the similar-sized archelon?   Because as it stands, it is quite tougher (Str and Con).




As I said in my previous post, I just got the sums wrong. I wanted the basic Huge-sized Giant Turtle to be as strong but less powerful than _*Stormwrack's*_ _Archelon_.

Incidentally, The AD&D Giant Turtle was tougher than an _Archelon_ - the 1E/2E Archelon was AC 3, HD 7, Bite 3d4, Size L (12' dia.) and the 1E/2E Giant Turtle AC 2, HD 15, Bite 4d4, Size L or G (50' dia.). That's why I had the working draft of the 3E Giant Turtle advance to Gargantuan at 15 HD, in honour of its predecessors.

I think the Giant Snapping Turtle should be more powerful than an _Archelon_ (e.g. Str 32, Con 25) once we get around to converting it. Or, rather, once we get around to updating Enworld's 3.0 conversion of the *Giant Snapping Turtle*.


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## freyar (Mar 2, 2012)

Do sea turtles actually have the ability to retract anything other than their heads?


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## Cleon (Mar 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> Do sea turtles actually have the ability to retract anything other than their heads?




No, but the AD&D Giant Sea Turtle ain't your regular turtle.


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2012)

Can you post the AD&D stats in that case?  The chelonians don't seem to have anything like that.


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## Cleon (Mar 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> Can you post the AD&D stats in that case?  The chelonians don't seem to have anything like that.




Sure.

Here's the most recent AD&D version, from _Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Two (1995)_.*Turtle, Sea, Giant*
Climate/Terrain: Any sea
Frequency: Uncommon
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Omnivore
Intelligence: Non- (0)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 1-3
Armor Class: 2/5
Movement: 1, Sw 15
Hit Dice: 15
THAC0: 5
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 4d4
Special Attacks: Upset craft
Special Defenses: Hide limbs
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: G (50’ diam.)
Morale: Champion (15-16)
XP Value: 5,000

Giant turtles are simply huge varieties of the normal species encountered daily in the wild. They resemble their common counterparts in every respect except for size. 

A turtle is characterized by its bony outer shell. The lower portion of the shell is known as the plastron, while the upper shell is referred to as the carapace. It is within this shell that a turtle withdraws its legs and head when threatened. Some turtles are incapable of completely shielding their limbs in this way, and plaster their legs very close to the shell for protection. 

Giant turtles eat whatever is available in their environment, from living plants to all types of insects, small mammals, and fish of all kinds. They prefer fresh green plants and live worms, as turtles do not enjoy feeding on carrion or rotting vegetation. Naturally, such foods are fair game if the turtle is in danger of starvation. 

Turtles have very long life spans—from 30-150 years, depending on the species. They are slow-moving and thus would rather withdraw into their shells when faced with an enemy, rather than either fight or flee. However, when harmed or persistently molested, the strong, quick bite of a giant turtle is a deadly weapon indeed. 

Giant turtle meat is considered a delicacy in most cultures, and it is highly nourishing and palatable. The upper shells of giant turtles are also greatly preferred as they can be made into small huts, strong roofs, or even boats. Without exception, the tropical marine varieties of sea turtles are the finest tasting and have the most attractive shells. 

*Giant Sea Turtles* 
These basically non-aggressive marine creatures fight fiercely if annoyed or threatened. The tearing bite of giant sea turtles causes 4d4 points of damage to the unlucky victim. If one surfaces beneath a small craft, there is a possibility of upsetting the vessel. There is a 90% chance for a rowboat but only 10% for a typical drakkar. Adjust this base chance for other sea-going vessels according to the size and stability of the craft.

The head and flippers of giant sea turtles are Armor Class 5, while the shell is AC 2. If the turtle withdraws its head and flippers into its shell either for defense or while resting, all attacks are considered to be directed against the shell. 
​There's also a "Father Of All The Turtles" in a Dragon #190 (Feb 1993) article _Monsters of the Deep_ by Greg Detwiler, but statwise it's pretty close to the Giant Sea Turtle:*Father-of-all-the-turtles*
*Father-of-all-the-turtles* *:* Named after a similar creature from Sumatran legends, this is basically a giant sea turtle 60’ long and 40’ wide. It has a mouth so wide that it splits the head in two when it opens (one report claims the inside of the mouth is brilliant red color), large eyes, and a shell whose front slopes up and backward in front, then slants down toward the rear. The scales on the front are hardly noticeable, while those to the rear of the shell are so large they have been compared to roofing shingles. Sometimes fleshy filaments are reported hanging around the mouth. There are only a few reports of this beast, the last in 1960. Oddly for a reptile, it is found in cold temperate areas. However, really large reptiles lose heat more slowly than their smaller fellows, and the Leatherback turtle _does_ travel far to the north.

 If it exists, the Father-of-all-the-turtles is probably an enlarged descendant of the Cretaceous sea turtle Archelon. Stats are those from the MC3, with the following exceptions: 16 HD; THAC0 5; DAMAGE/ATTACK 2-20; SIZE G (60’ long by 40' wide); XP VALUE 8,000. 
​Finally, here's another Turtle I think we should convert. I suggest calling it a Ferry Turtle rather than a Giant Freshwater Turtle:*From The Sylvan Veil (1999)*
Most visitors to Silvanost must cross the Thon-Thalas to enter the city. During the city’s early days, traditional ferryboats used rope lines or magic to move passengers from Fallon Island and the mainland. However, priests of the Blue Phoenix later enlarged several turtles to do the job.

As time passed, these large turtles bred, creating even more turtles to replace the older ones. When Speaker Lorac’s Nightmare twisted the forest and tainted the river, most of the turtles died. Thankfully, when Porthios and his forces cleared the forest of the Nightmares, the kirath discovered several turtles and a clutch of large eggs. Since then, this clutch has hatched, and now large turtles pull barges between the island and the mainland. Even the drain of the Silvanesti Shield hasn’t stopped these strong creatures performing their job. 

*Giant turtle:*  AC 1; MV 3; Sw 9; HD 4+4; hp 30; THAC0 17; #AT 1, Dmg 2d6 (bite); SZ L (8’ long); Int low (5); Al N.​The Int 5 and being trainable strongly suggests these aren't simply smaller freshwater versions of Giant Sea Turtles.


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2012)

I definitely like the idea of the Ferry Turtle, and wouldn't mind trying to make Father-of-all-Turtles unique enough to get its own conversion.


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## Cleon (Mar 7, 2012)

Shade said:


> I definitely like the idea of the Ferry Turtle, and wouldn't mind trying to make Father-of-all-Turtles unique enough to get its own conversion.




Well maybe if we do some Googling for Sumatran mythology we will find some additional inspiration?

And yes, the Ferry Turtle is definitely on my to-do list. Should be simple enough to downsize a Huge Giant Sea Turtle and "Magical Beast" it.


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## freyar (Mar 9, 2012)

Heck, we could just make the giant ones magical beasts, like giant owls or eagles.  But no biggie.

So: hiding limbs should provide what kind of benefit?  Circumstance bonus to AC or something?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> Heck, we could just make the giant ones magical beasts, like giant owls or eagles.  But no biggie.
> 
> So: hiding limbs should provide what kind of benefit?  Circumstance bonus to AC or something?




Probably similar to what we did for the giant porcupine or echidna, I suppose.


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## Cleon (Mar 10, 2012)

freyar said:


> Heck, we could just make the giant ones magical beasts, like giant owls or eagles.  But no biggie.




I'd consider upgrading the giant turtle to a Dire Animal, but see no reason to make it Magical Beast.



freyar said:


> So: hiding limbs should provide what kind of benefit?  Circumstance bonus to AC or something?




Yes, and I'd consider giving it fortification and damage reduction too, both of which get circumstance bonuses if if "turtles up".


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 13, 2012)

Hey guys, I haven't posted here in a while!

I noticed you were talking about giant turtles and what benefits withdrawing their limbs into their shells would get them, rules wise. Here's what I came up with a while back:



> Withdraw (Ex): An Atlas tortoise can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains the equivalent of improved cover (+8 AC, +4 on Reflex saves, improved evasion against any attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies). Withdrawing into its shell also improves the Atlas tortoise's fortification to moderate, giving it a 75% chance to avoid critical hits and sneak attacks.


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2012)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> Hey guys, I haven't posted here in a while!




Welcome back! It's been a long time since you've been round these parts.



InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> I noticed you were talking about giant turtles and what benefits withdrawing their limbs into their shells would get them, rules wise. Here's what I came up with a while back:
> 
> 
> 
> > Withdraw (Ex): An Atlas tortoise can pull in its head and limbs to  protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take  any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains the equivalent of  improved cover (+8 AC, +4 on Reflex saves, improved evasion against any  attack to which the Reflex save bonus applies). Withdrawing into its  shell also improves the Atlas tortoise's fortification to moderate,  giving it a 75% chance to avoid critical hits and sneak attacks.




Not keen on the bonus to Reflex saves, since it's immobile while withdrawn.

Here's a vaguely similar SQ I came up with...

*Armoured Ball (Ex):* A pangolin can roll into a tight ball as a move action. A rolled-up pangolin loses its dexterity modifier to AC and can take no action apart from Shivering Scales (see below), but gains a +3 circumstance bonus to its Natural Armour, Damage Reduction and the DC of its Shivering Scales special attack, thus increasing its defences to DC15 Shivering Scales, AC17 (touch 11, flat-footed 17) and DR 5/–. The pangolin can unroll into an upright position with a standard action.

Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is scored on a tree pangolin rolled into an Armoured Ball, there is a 25% chance (50% for Medium-sized pangolins) that the special attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally.

An attacker can forcibly unroll a pangolin with a grapple check, but the pangolin receives a +12 racial bonus on its grapple check to resist, and the attacker must continue making grapple checks each round or the pangolin can roll itself back up.

Also, the Porcupine conversion we whipped up for the Enworld CC had a "Hunker Down" SQ:

*Hunker Down (Ex):* If a porcupine is threatened in melee and cannot retreat to a safe distance from its opponent(s), it curls its head and legs under its torso while on the ground and flares its quills in all directions. In this defensive position, the Reflex save DC of its quills special attack gains a +2 bonus (increasing it to DC 14 for a typical porcupine), but the porcupine's speed is reduced to 10 ft. and it cannot charge or run.


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## InsanePsychoRabbit (Mar 13, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Welcome back! It's been a long time since you've been round these parts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I understand your opinion on the bonus to Reflex saves. I chose improved cover (with bonus to Reflex saves) intentionally on the basis of I once saw a documentary in which an African tortoise survived a grass fire by withdrawing into its shell. (I wasn't able to find it again, but if you Google "tortoise survives fire" there's a reference to a pet tortoise that survived a house fire.) Now, imagine that fire was a _fireball_ spell instead, which the tortoise avoids (Reflex save) by seeking cover in the form of its shell.

If you still don't like the whole bonus-to-Reflex-saves idea, I'd be willing to work with the Armored Ball ability or something similar. I suppose the DR gained with that ability could also represent what I'm getting at with the tortoise-survives-fire thing.


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## Cleon (Mar 13, 2012)

InsanePsychoRabbit said:


> I understand your opinion on the bonus to Reflex saves. I chose improved cover (with bonus to Reflex saves) intentionally on the basis of I once saw a documentary in which an African tortoise survived a grass fire by withdrawing into its shell. (I wasn't able to find it again, but if you Google "tortoise survives fire" there's a reference to a pet tortoise that survived a house fire.) Now, imagine that fire was a _fireball_ spell instead, which the tortoise avoids (Reflex save) by seeking cover in the form of its shell.
> 
> If you still don't like the whole bonus-to-Reflex-saves idea, I'd be willing to work with the Armored Ball ability or something similar. I suppose the DR gained with that ability could also represent what I'm getting at with the tortoise-survives-fire thing.




Well, even if the DM applies Reflex saves to grass fires, the tortoise is going to be in the fire for a pretty long time, so wouldn't it need to succeed at a LOT of Ref saves to avoid roasting?

Having a "withdrawn" tortoise gain some energy-resistance protection would seem a better fit.

Although I prefer the Giant Sea Turtle to get bonuses to NA and DR when it's limbs are retracted.


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2012)

I don't really like energy resistance, as that just feels weird.  Maybe maybe maybe a small amount.  If everyone really wants it.

Some variation of Armored Ball or Withdraw works.  I don't particularly like boosting NA/cover *plus* DR, since the shell should either be protecting the turtle (providing AC) or be considered a part of the turtle resistant to damage (DR), but not both.

A good analogy might be the tower shield, which normally provides AC but can be used to provide cover.  So I think I like some refinement of IPR's Withdraw.  How about something like this?  (Name is certainly up for discussion.)

Withdraw (Ex): A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle light fortification.

We could bump the fortification if we're giving it fortification when not withdrawn, I guess.


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## Cleon (Mar 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> How about something like this?  (Name is certainly up for discussion.)
> 
> Withdraw (Ex): A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle light fortification.
> 
> We could bump the fortification if we're giving it fortification when not withdrawn, I guess.




I could go along with that, although I prefer heavy or moderate fortification with moderate or light fortification for the un-withdrawn turtle.


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## Shade (Mar 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Withdraw (Ex): A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs to protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot take any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover. Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle light fortification.




I like this.



Cleon said:


> I could go along with that, although I prefer heavy or moderate fortification with moderate or light fortification for the un-withdrawn turtle.




That's fine, too.


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## Cleon (Mar 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> I like this.
> 
> That's fine, too.




OK, I'll update the *Working Draft* with the latter option.

Do we give it light fortification & moderate when withdrawn or moderate fortification & heavy when withdrawn.

I prefer moderate & heavy - these things are HUGE, so ought to have very tough shells. Besides, that'll give use an excuse to give the Ferry Turtle light fortification.

So that's what I'm going to give it!


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## freyar (Mar 16, 2012)

I thought it was going to be moderate fortification (75%) when not withdrawn, not some un-named 50%. ;p

But it looks pretty good.

I might go to CR 1/2 on the normal size version, just since the AC is pretty decent.  And CR 5 on the giant one, I think.


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## Cleon (Mar 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> I thought it was going to be moderate fortification (75%) when not withdrawn, not some un-named 50%. ;p
> 
> But it looks pretty good.
> 
> I might go to CR 1/2 on the normal size version, just since the AC is pretty decent.  And CR 5 on the giant one, I think.




I'm leaning more toward 1/3 and 4 myself.

Can you persuade me otherwise?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2012)

Well, the non-giant sea turtle looks a bit better than a Tiny animated object (CR 1/2), better than a dire rat (except for the disease) (CR 1/2), and only slightly worse than a formian worker (CR 1/2).  If you feel it needs a boost, I think it would be entirely reasonable to give it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.  

As for the giant one, a good comp is the adult tojanida, which has considerably better AC but less in the way of damage.  I think the fortification (at least if we go with usual moderate fortification at 75% unwithdrawn) makes up a bit for the AC, just like the tojanida's imp grab and ink cloud make up a bit for the reduced damage.


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## Cleon (Mar 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, the non-giant sea turtle looks a bit better than a Tiny animated object (CR 1/2), better than a dire rat (except for the disease) (CR 1/2), and only slightly worse than a formian worker (CR 1/2).  If you feel it needs a boost, I think it would be entirely reasonable to give it Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat.




Tiny animated objects usually have hardness - say, wood at hardness 5. They're a lot tougher to kill.

A Formian Worker has a better attack (+2 attack odds, average damage per hit of 3.5 vs the turtle's 2 - meaning it'll do about twice as much damage on average), various resistances, useful SLAs, and its saves are as good or better. Plus they can act intelligently and in perfect coordination.

It still looks like a 1/3 to me.



freyar said:


> As for the giant one, a good comp is the adult tojanida, which has considerably better AC but less in the way of damage.  I think the fortification (at least if we go with usual moderate fortification at 75% unwithdrawn) makes up a bit for the AC, just like the tojanida's imp grab and ink cloud make up a bit for the reduced damage.




I'm not that attached to CR 4 for the Giant version (which is why I've still got "4 or 5?" in the Working Draft.

Hmm, they are pretty tough, and have a reasonably good speed. I could see going for Challenge Rating 5 for the Giant Sea Turtle.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2012)

OK, then, you've convinced me, we'll go with CR 1/3.  What do you think about Weapon Finesse *?

CR 5 for the giant ones, then.  Shall we go with the normal moderate fortification?*


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## Shade (Mar 22, 2012)

freyar said:


> OK, then, you've convinced me, we'll go with CR 1/3.  What do you think about Weapon Finesse *?*



*

When I think "turtle", the next word to come to mind isn't "finesse".  



freyar said:



			CR 5 for the giant ones, then.  Shall we go with the normal moderate fortification?
		
Click to expand...



Yep on both counts.*


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## Cleon (Mar 23, 2012)

Shade said:


> When I think "turtle", the next word to come to mind isn't "finesse".
> 
> Yep on both counts.




That's OK by me.

I've updated the *Working Draft*.

So, are we giving the regular Sea Turtle Light Fortification or not?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2012)

I'd be ok with that but might want to revisit the CR 1/3 vs 1/2 issue if we do.


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## Cleon (Mar 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> I'd be ok with that but might want to revisit the CR 1/3 vs 1/2 issue if we do.




Well, they've still only got 5 hit points and a 1d4-1 bite. I don't think a 25% chance of cancelling a crit makes _that _much difference.

I don't believe Shade gave a preference - are we waiting for him?


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2012)

Eh, just stick to CR 1/3 if it makes a difference to you.


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## Cleon (Mar 28, 2012)

freyar said:


> Eh, just stick to CR 1/3 if it makes a difference to you.




Well, I didn't mind leaving out the Light Fortification, but since it doesn't bother you...

Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2012)

Looking good.  CR 1/3 is fine by me.   Are we just left with flavor?


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## Cleon (Apr 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looking good.  CR 1/3 is fine by me.   Are we just left with flavor?




Where do you stand on whether it should have Light Fortification?

I'd rather keep the fortification, but I don't mind dropping it if you're against the critical resistance.

Also, are you OK with CR 5 for the Giant version?


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Where do you stand on whether it should have Light Fortification?
> 
> I'd rather keep the fortification, but I don't mind dropping it if you're against the critical resistance.
> 
> Also, are you OK with CR 5 for the Giant version?




The light fortification doesn't bother me.

CR 5 for the giant version appeals.


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## Cleon (Apr 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> The light fortification doesn't bother me.
> 
> CR 5 for the giant version appeals.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

I corrected some giant sea turtle stuff that got copied over into the regular turtle's Fortification and Hold Breath SQs.

Time for the flavour text then. If I recall the Monstrous Compendium correctly, Giant Sea Turtles are mighty tasty...


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2012)

We still need 2 feats for the giant one.  Endurance?  Snatch?


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## Cleon (Apr 8, 2012)

freyar said:


> We still need 2 feats for the giant one.  Endurance?  Snatch?




Works for me!

Updating the *Working Draft*.

How's this for the flavour:

_A turtle with a flattened body and powerful fore-flippers._

Sea turtles are common marine reptiles. Most of them are omnivores or herbivores and mainly eating seaweed, but there are carnivorous varieties that eat fish or jellyfish. A sea turtle lives its life in the water, except for when the females crawl onto sandy beaches to bury their eggs. Humanoids often hunt sea turtles. Their flesh and eggs are quite tasty, and their shells can be fashioned into implements or ornaments.

The statistics presented here describe a small sea turtle, 2 to 3 feet long and weighing 70 to 100 pounds. Some kinds of sea turtle grow much larger than that.

COMBAT

Sea turtles are rarely aggressive, preferring to swim away from opponents. They bite if threatened.

*Giant Sea Turtle
*These relatives of ordinary sea turtles are so enormous they can live comfortably in cold waters. Giant sea turtles are omnivores, preferring to eat plants and small animals. They do not usually hunt prey the size of most humanoids. These reptiles are just as tasty as their normal-sized cousins, and their shells are so huge they can be used as roofs or boats.

A giant sea turtle typically measures from 20 to 30 feet from snout to tail, with a shell from 15  to 25 feet in diameter, and weighs 30,000 pounds or more. Old specimens often reach lengths of 50 or 60 feet.

COMBAT

Giant sea turtles are basically non-aggressive, but fight fiercely if sorely provoked. If a giant sea turtle feels bothered by an intruder, it normally withdraws into its shell and waits to be left alone. Should a persistent enemy annoy or injure it, the turtle will bite with its deadly, tearing beak. An angry giant sea turtle may capsizes a ship by surfacing underneath it.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2012)

Looks great!  Let's say they're done.


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## Cleon (Apr 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> Looks great!  Let's say they're done.




Yup, looks that way!

Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2012)

Transferred to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Apr 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> Transferred to Homebrews.




So, are we doing The Father Of All Turtles, the Ferry Turtle, or the Nik'too next?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2012)

Cleon said:


> So, are we doing The Father Of All Turtles, the Ferry Turtle, or the Nik'too next?




I hear Nik'too is highly addictive, so it might be necessary.


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## Cleon (Apr 13, 2012)

Shade said:


> I hear Nik'too is highly addictive, so it might be necessary.




Only if you smoke 'em.

So, which of the three would you pick?


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2012)

Rolling dice...

EDIT: Since it's a 6, I guess that's the 3rd option, or Nik'too.


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## Cleon (Apr 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Rolling dice...
> 
> EDIT: Since it's a 6, I guess that's the 3rd option, or Nik'too.




If you like, the Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium WotC unleashed to the public has AD&D stats. You can see them *here* in the The Vaults of Pandius.

Note it says they are "stronger than horses".

The dismembering bite sounds nasty. Should we keep that, or reserve it for a "Dire Nik'too"?


----------



## freyar (Apr 18, 2012)

No need to save it!  Vorpal bite!


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## Cleon (Apr 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> No need to save it!  Vorpal bite!




It doesn't bite off Heads. Fortunately.

We can reuse this sweet little special attack:

*Sever Limb (Su):* If the quickbiter scores a critical hit with its bite attack, the victim must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or lose a hand or foot (determine randomly). A victim who loses a foot falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed hand makes it impossible for the subject to use objects in that hand or cast spells with somatic components. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## Shade (Apr 19, 2012)

Cleon said:


> It doesn't bite off Heads. Fortunately.
> 
> We can reuse this sweet little special attack:
> 
> *Sever Limb (Su):* If the quickbiter scores a critical hit with its bite attack, the victim must succeed on a DC 21 Fortitude save or lose a hand or foot (determine randomly). A victim who loses a foot falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed hand makes it impossible for the subject to use objects in that hand or cast spells with somatic components. The save DC is Strength-based.




I was going to mention that we'd done something like that several times before.  Where'd you find that one?


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## freyar (Apr 19, 2012)

Not vorpal in the head sense, vorpal in the chopping sense!  Don't you like exception-based nomenclature? 

That Su ability will work perfectly, though I think it should be Ex in this case.


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## Cleon (Apr 20, 2012)

Shade said:


> I was going to mention that we'd done something like that several times before.  Where'd you find that one?




Don't you remember us converting the Quickbiter?

It's originally from the _Crypt of Lyzandred the Mad._

Anyhow, I think we have enough for me to begin a Working Draft. I'll just downsize a Giant Sea Turtle to begin with and we can start fiddling with it from there.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 20, 2012)

*Nikt'oo Working Draft*

*Nikt'oo, Female*
Large Animal (Aquatic)
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+12 (25 hp)
*Initiative:* -1
*Speed:* 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 40 ft.
*Armor Class:* 15 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +7 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+11
*Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d10+7)
*Full Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d10+7)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Sever limb
*Special Qualities:* Amphibious, indefatigable march, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +2, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 9, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 4
*Skills:* Spot +7, Swim +13
*Feats:* Endurance (B), Great Fortitude, Weapon Focus (bite)
*Environment:* Any aquatic or forest
*Organization:* Solitary
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A large turtle-like creature with a viciously sharp beak._

 A nikt'oo is not a turtle, although it looks  very much like one. These reptilian creatures can breathe both water and  air. Their shells are mostly thick hide, with inserts of bony plates.  Female nikt'oo live in the sea and in coastal forests. Male nikt'oo live  in the sea, emerging onto the shore only to fight for mates and breed.  Nikt'oo can be tamed and trained as mounts and beasts of burden. Usually  only female nikt'oo are trained, as the flipper-footed males are far  more aggressive and can not move easily on land. Nikt'oo are mostly  domesticated by tortles, snappers, and other reptilian humanoids.

 An adult niktoo is typically 10 to 12 feet long and stands about 3 feet  high. Adult female nikt'oo usually weigh about 2,500 pounds, but they  can weigh more than twice as much. Male nikt'oo can grow much bigger  than females, reaching lengths of up to 20 feet.

*COMBAT*

 Nikt'oo are normally passive creatures who only become aggressive during  their mating season. They usually only fight when their lives are  threatened or if they've been specially trained for war. Male nikt'oos  will viciously defend a female if it is interfered with during  egg-laying.

*Sever Limb (Su):* If the nikt'oo scores a critical hit with  its bite attack, the victim must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save or  lose a hand or foot (determine randomly). A victim who loses a foot  falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed hand  makes it impossible for the subject to use objects in that hand or cast  spells with somatic components. The save DC is Strength-based.

*Indefatigable March (Ex):* In a day of normal walking, a nikt'oo can  walk for 16 hours instead of the 8 hours of a normal creature. The  remaining time is usually spent resting and eating. Thus, a nikt'oo can  move twice as many miles in a day as its 20 ft. land speed would  indicate. If a nikt'oo walks for longer than 16 hours per day it can  become worn out (see the Forced March subsection of the Overland  Movement rules). A nikt'oo can use its Indefatigable March ability while  swimming, but it swims at half speed (20 ft.) while doing so. A nikt'oo  can not use Indefatigable March while under the effect of any spell or  special ability that increases its speed.

A nikt'oo can eat and sleep during a Indefatigable March and continue walking  (or swimming at half-speed). If it encounters a threat or unexpected  obstacle while "sleep marching" it can attempt a Listen or Spot checks  to notice it, at a -5 penalty. If it succeeds the nikt'oo immediately  wakes up.

*Skills:* A nikt'oo has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action  or avoid a hazard. A nikt'oo can use its Dexterity modifier or its  Strength modifier on Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a  Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action  while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

*Carrying Capacity*
     A light load for a nikt'oo is up to 400 pounds; a medium load, 401-800 pounds; and a heavy load, 801-1200 pounds. A nikt'oo can drag 6,000 pounds.

*Nikt'oo, Mal**e*
The above entry describes a female nikt'oo. Male nikt'oo are bulkier  than females and spend their lives at sea. They are clumsy on land, and  usually only emerge from the water to attack creatures they think are  threatening a female nikt'oo. An average male nikt'oo is 10 to 12 feet long and weighs 2500 to 4000 pounds. Male nikt'oo can grow much bigger than  females, reaching lengths up to 20 feet and weights of 10 tons or more.

A male nikt'oos has the following changes to its statistics block. Any statistic that is not listed is the same as a female nikt'oo.

*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 40 ft.
*Environment:* Any aquatic
*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Large); 7-9 HD (Huge)


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2012)

21d10!!!!  

I'm OK with retaining 3d4, but don't mind the change to the presumed 1d10, or even 1d12.


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## Cleon (Apr 21, 2012)

Shade said:


> 21d10!!!!
> 
> I'm OK with retaining 3d4, but don't mind the change to the presumed 1d10, or even 1d12.




What, you think an average damage of 123.5 is too much?

'Twas but a typo, I'll update it.

The AD&D Giant Sea Turtle had a 4d4 bite, which is 1 step up from 3d4, so I though it reasonable to downstep the damage.

The text indicates Nikt'oo have sexual dimorphism. with the males being a marine and a lot less agile out of water. They also grow larger than the females, and are fierce if they think a female is being bothered, all of which makes them less suitable as mount.

It also says the "turtle-like" Nikt'oo is _*amphibious*_. Do we want to give them that trait? i.e. add Aquatic and Amphibious and drop Hold Breath.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2012)

Cleon said:


> It also says the "turtle-like" Nikt'oo is _*amphibious*_. Do we want to give them that trait? i.e. add Aquatic and Amphibious and drop Hold Breath.




Let's do!


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2012)

1d10 bite and aquatic/amphibious works for me.  If you want to go the dimorphism route, we can put an underbar mentioning that females are not aquatic but have hold breath or something.


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## Cleon (Apr 24, 2012)

Shade said:


> Let's do!




*Done*!


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## Cleon (Apr 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> 1d10 bite and aquatic/amphibious works for me.  If you want to go the dimorphism route, we can put an underbar mentioning that females are not aquatic but have hold breath or something.




I was thinking something like the following:

*Male Nikt'oo*
The above entry describes a female nikt'oo. Male nikt'oo are bulkier than females and spend their lives at sea. They are clumsy on land, and usually only emerge from the water to attack creatures they think are threatening a female nikt'oo. Male nikt'oo can grow much bigger than females, reaching lengths of up to 20 feet.

A male nikt'oo uses the following changes:

*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 square), swim 40 ft.
*Environment:* Any aquatic
*Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Large); 7-9 HD (Huge) *[?]

**Female Advancement:* 4-6 HD (Large) *[?]*


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2012)

What about droppoing Aquatic/Amphibious for females and giving them hold breath as freyar suggested?


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## Cleon (Apr 25, 2012)

Shade said:


> What about droppoing Aquatic/Amphibious for females and giving them hold breath as freyar suggested?




I'd rather not.

The original text says nikt'oo are amphibious, not that only male nikt'oo are amphibious.

It'd seem off to have one sex that can drown in the sea while the other won't, especially when there's nothing to that effect in the original description.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'd rather not.
> 
> The original text says nikt'oo are amphibious, not that only male nikt'oo are amphibious.
> 
> It'd seem off to have one sex that can drown in the sea while the other won't, especially when there's nothing to that effect in the original description.




OK, I'm convinced.


----------



## Cleon (Apr 28, 2012)

Shade said:


> OK, I'm convinced.




Shall I update the *Working Draft* 	 then?


----------



## Shade (May 1, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Shall I update the *Working Draft* 	 then?




Please!


----------



## Cleon (May 2, 2012)

Shade said:


> Please!




Done.

I changed the first name to "Niktoo, Female" but might change it back again later.

I'm wondering whether we should give them some special Stamina increase for forced marches, due to their "These strong creatures can run for days without rest and, at half their normal movement, swim indefinitely (eating and even sleeping while they move, waking just long enough to make course corrections)."

Apart from that, it's missing its feats.


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## Shade (May 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm wondering whether we should give them some special Stamina increase for forced marches, due to their "These strong creatures can run for days without rest and, at half their normal movement, swim indefinitely (eating and even sleeping while they move, waking just long enough to make course corrections)."
> 
> Apart from that, it's missing its feats.




Endurance as a bonus feat sufficiently appeals for covering the "forced march" bits.

For the other feats, probably Weapon Focus (bite) like the snapping turtle and maybe Great Fortitude for the other?


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## Cleon (May 3, 2012)

Shade said:


> Endurance as a bonus feat sufficiently appeals for covering the "forced march" bits.
> 
> For the other feats, probably Weapon Focus (bite) like the snapping turtle and maybe Great Fortitude for the other?




The problem with that is a bonus Endurance feat is a lot less effective that the original nikt'oo's ability to run or swim (at half speed) nonstop for days at a time. It would be able to force march an hour or so longer on average, but with its 20 ft. base speed that means an average horse would still travel roughly twice in a day.

I think that's the important comparison - I'd like a creature on a nikt'oo should be able to travel overland the same distance in a day as a creature on a horse, although the "slow and steady" nikt'oo might arrive hours after the speedier horse.

So, I'm thinking we could give them a modified form of the Herdsman Genie's Tireless March, something like this:

*Tireless March (Ex):* In a day of normal walking, a nikt'oo can walk for 16 hours instead of the 8 hours of a normal creature. The remaining time is usually spent resting and eating. Thus, a nikt'oo can move twice as many miles in a day as its 20 ft. land speed would indicate. If a nikt'oo walks for longer than 16 hours per day it can become worn out (see the Forced March subsection of the Overland Movement rules). A nikt'oo can use its Tireless March ability while swimming, but it swims at half speed (20 ft.) while doing so. A nikt'oo can not use Tireless March while under the effect of any spell or special ability that increases its speed.

A nikt'oo can eat and sleep during a Tireless March and continue walking (or swimming at half-speed). If it encounters a threat or unexpected obstacle while "sleep marching" it can attempt a Listen or Spot checks to notice it, at a -5 penalty. If it succeeds the nikt'oo immediately wakes up.

Hmm, you know I quite like this!


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## Cleon (May 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> *Tireless March (Ex):* In a day of normal walking, a nikt'oo can walk for 16 hours instead of the 8 hours of a normal creature. The remaining time is usually spent resting and eating. Thus, a nikt'oo can move twice as many miles in a day as its 20 ft. land speed would indicate. If a nikt'oo walks for longer than 16 hours per day it can become worn out (see the Forced March subsection of the Overland Movement rules). A nikt'oo can use its Tireless March ability while swimming, but it swims at half speed (20 ft.) while doing so. A nikt'oo can not use Tireless March while under the effect of any spell or special ability that increases its speed.
> 
> A nikt'oo can eat and sleep during a Tireless March and continue walking (or swimming at half-speed). If it encounters a threat or unexpected obstacle while "sleep marching" it can attempt a Listen or Spot checks to notice it, at a -5 penalty. If it succeeds the nikt'oo immediately wakes up.




Although I would like to give it Endurance as a bonus feat _*as well*_ as Tireless March.


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## freyar (May 7, 2012)

I think I could go with that.  But I have a strange feeling we've done something similar before; I first thought it was the Buraq that had it, but I just checked and can't find it.  Hmm.


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## Cleon (May 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> I think I could go with that.  But I have a strange feeling we've done something similar before; I first thought it was the Buraq that had it, but I just checked and can't find it.  Hmm.




You think we've done something similar before?

Whatever could have given you that idea...



Cleon said:


> So, I'm thinking we could give them a modified form  of the *Herdsman Genie's Tireless March*, something like this:




Is *that ability* similar enough for you?


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## Shade (May 8, 2012)

My only issue is that was a Su ability...I'm not sure I can accept it as Ex, but might be persuaded.


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## freyar (May 8, 2012)

Heh, that's right...

Well, can it be modified slightly to make it more acceptable as Ex?


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## Mortis (May 9, 2012)

freyar said:


> Well, can it be modified slightly to make it more acceptable as Ex?



In my opinion that is only a Su ability as the genies can affect others (the herd) with it. As an ability that only affects the creature that possesses it changing it to Ex makes sense to me.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (May 10, 2012)

Mortis said:


> In my opinion that is only a Su ability as the genies can affect others (the herd) with it. As an ability that only affects the creature that possesses it changing it to Ex makes sense to me.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




Quite. The nikt'oo isn't magically making other creatures be able to march for days at a time. It just has a peculiar metabolism that allows it to do that itself.

Anyhow, I'm pretty happy with the ability as-is. Does anyone have any changes they can suggest?


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## Shade (May 10, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Quite. The nikt'oo isn't magically making other creatures be able to march for days at a time. It just has a peculiar metabolism that allows it to do that itself.
> 
> Anyhow, I'm pretty happy with the ability as-is. Does anyone have any changes they can suggest?




Looking at it again, I think you stripped out anything supernatural about it, so I think it will work.


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## Cleon (May 11, 2012)

Shade said:


> Looking at it again, I think you stripped out anything supernatural about it, so I think it will work.




In that case, I'll go ahead with adding it to the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (May 15, 2012)

It looks fine to me, but should we change the name slightly to distinguish it from the Su ability?  Indefatigable (Ex), maybe?


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## Shade (May 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> It looks fine to me, but should we change the name slightly to distinguish it from the Su ability?  Indefatigable (Ex), maybe?




That's not a bad idea.


----------



## Cleon (May 15, 2012)

Shade said:


> That's not a bad idea.




It's a good idea, but I prefer "Indefatigable March".


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## freyar (May 15, 2012)

Fine with me.


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## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

freyar said:


> Fine with me.




Updating the *Working Draft*.


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## Mortis (May 16, 2012)

Noticed a couple of (very) small issues in the working draft.

Speed has (4 square) rather than (4 squares) and the second paragraph of Indefatigable March still uses the term 'Tireless March'.

That said, and it doesn't actually affect anything important, I prefer 'Relentless March' over 'Indefatigable March'.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

Mortis said:


> Noticed a couple of (very) small issues in the working draft.
> 
> Speed has (4 square) rather than (4 squares) and the second paragraph of Indefatigable March still uses the term 'Tireless March'.
> 
> ...




Both those are carry-overs from copy & pasting.

Easy enough to fix by updating the *Working Draft*.

Don't much like "Relentless March". A nikt'oo isn't inexorable or unrelenting when it marches, it just can march a long time without getting tired. I'd be willing to meet halfway with "Unflagging March", I suppose.

How about "Tenacious March" instead? I like that better than Indefatigable March or Unflagging March?


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## Shade (May 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> How about "Tenacious March" instead? I like that better than Indefatigable March or Unflagging March?




4 out of 5 Jack Black's agree!


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## Mortis (May 16, 2012)

Cleon said:
			
		

> Both those are carry-overs from copy & pasting.



Figured as much.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> 4 out of 5 Jack Black's agree!



I don't mind 'Tenacious March' either.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

Mortis said:


> Figured as much.
> 
> 
> I don't mind 'Tenacious March' either.
> ...




Amending the *Working Draft*.

Feats and Skills?


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## Mortis (May 16, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Feats and Skills?



Skills look done according to the working draft.

Shade suggested Weapon Focus (bite) and Great Fortitude earlier which seem fine to me.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (May 16, 2012)

Mortis said:


> Skills look done according to the working draft.
> 
> Shade suggested Weapon Focus (bite) and Great Fortitude earlier which seem fine to me.
> 
> ...




The _Stormwrack_ Archelon has Great Fortitude, so that works for me.

Updating the *Working Draft*.

Is Challenge Rating 2 enough?


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## Shade (May 17, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Is Challenge Rating 2 enough?




I think sever limb is enough to boost it to 3.


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## Cleon (May 18, 2012)

Shade said:


> I think sever limb is enough to boost it to 3.




The 825 hit points would count for something too! 

Hmm, it should also have a flat-footed AC of 15.

Apart from fixing those flaws, it looks ready for the background & tactics. Are we giving it a Training a Nikt'oo entry or just a Carrying Capacity?


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## freyar (May 18, 2012)

As animals, they shouldn't need a special training section, right?  They should just fall under the usual Handle Animal skill entry.


----------



## Cleon (May 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> As animals, they shouldn't need a special training section, right?  They should just fall under the usual Handle Animal skill entry.




I was only asking! They don't appear to need any special training to ride. Going by the _*Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium*_ picture they can be ridden with standard saddles.

So, we just need background & flavour text, then!


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## Shade (May 22, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I was only asking! They don't appear to need any special training to ride. Going by the _*Savage Coast Monstrous Compendium*_ picture they can be ridden with standard saddles.
> 
> So, we just need background & flavour text, then!




It appears so!


----------



## Cleon (May 22, 2012)

Shade said:


> It appears so!




Care to suggest anything?

Oh, and you wanted Challenge Rating 3, so I'd better update that in the *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (May 23, 2012)

Tactics: Nik'too bite aggressively, fleeing only when in fear for their lives.


----------



## Cleon (May 24, 2012)

freyar said:


> Tactics: Nik'too bite aggressively, fleeing only when in fear for their lives.




That ill matches the original text, which describes them as only fighting in self-defense or when specially trained.

How about this...

Nikt'oo are normally passive creatures who only become aggressive during their mating season. They usually only fight when their lives are threatened or if they've been specially trained for war. Male nikt'oos will viciously defend a female if it is interfered with during egg-laying.


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## freyar (May 26, 2012)

Sure, works for me.


----------



## Cleon (May 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure, works for me.




Updating the *Working Draft*.

That just leaves the description and background.


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## freyar (May 30, 2012)

A giant turtle-like creature with a visciously sharp beak.


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## Cleon (May 31, 2012)

freyar said:


> A giant turtle-like creature with a visciously sharp beak.




What is so treacle-like about the consistency of its beak? 

Also "giant" makes me imagine a turtle-like creature the size of a house. Nikt'oo aren't that big.

How's this...

_A *large* turtle-like creature with a *viciously *sharp beak._

A nikto'oo is not a turtle, although it looks very much like one. These reptilian creatures can breathe both water and air. Their shells are mostly thick hide, with inserts of bony plates. Female nikt'oo live in the sea and in coastal forests. Male nikt'oo live in the sea, emerging onto the shore only to fight for mates and breed. Nikt'oo can be tamed and trained as mounts and beasts of burden. Usually only female nikt'oo are trained, the flipper-footed males are far more aggressive can not move easily on land. Nikt'oo are mostly domesticated by tortles, snappers, and other reptilian humanoids.

An adult niktoo is typically 10 to 12 feet   long, stands about 3 feet  high. Adult female nikt'oo can weigh 2,500 pounds, or even more. Male  nikt'oo can grow much bigger than females, reaching lengths of up to 20  feet.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2012)

I didn't say "viscous," actually. There's an "i" in there.  

And, while I won't quibble with "large," nik'too are Large, just like a horse.  

The rest is fine, although there are some misplaced commas and run-ons.  Editing:

A large turtle-like creature with a viciously sharp beak.

A nikto'oo is not a turtle, although it looks very much like one. These reptilian creatures can breathe both water and air. Their shells are mostly thick hide, with inserts of bony plates. Female nikt'oo live in the sea and in coastal forests. Male nikt'oo live in the sea, emerging onto the shore only to fight for mates and breed. Nikt'oo can be tamed and trained as mounts and beasts of burden. Usually only female nikt'oo are trained, as the flipper-footed males are far more aggressive can not move easily on land. Nikt'oo are mostly domesticated by tortles, snappers, and other reptilian humanoids.

An adult niktoo is typically 10 to 12 feet long and stands about 3 feet high. Adult female nikt'oo can weigh 2,500 pounds or even more. Male nikt'oo can grow much bigger than females, reaching lengths of up to 20 feet.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2012)

freyar said:


> I didn't say "viscous," actually. There's an "i" in there.
> 
> And, while I won't quibble with "large," nik'too are Large, just like a horse.
> 
> The rest is fine, although there are some misplaced commas and run-ons.  Editing:




It's still a work in progress. I can see a few words I can tweak and one typo that needs fixing. Oh, and some of those commas seem fine to me.

_ A large turtle-like creature with a viciously sharp beak._

A nikt'oo is not a turtle, although it looks very much like one. These reptilian creatures can breathe both water and air. Their shells are mostly thick hide, with inserts of bony plates. Female nikt'oo live in the sea and in coastal forests. Male nikt'oo live in the sea, emerging onto the shore only to fight for mates and breed. Nikt'oo can be tamed and trained as mounts and beasts of burden. Usually only female nikt'oo are trained, as the flipper-footed males are far more aggressive and can not move easily on land. Nikt'oo are mostly domesticated by tortles, snappers, and other reptilian humanoids.

An adult niktoo is typically 10 to 12 feet long and stands about 3 feet high. Adult female nikt'oo usually weigh about 2,500 pounds, but can weigh more than twice that much. Male nikt'oo can grow much bigger than females, reaching lengths of up to 20 feet.


----------



## freyar (Jun 7, 2012)

Shouldn't actually be a comma before "but can weigh more" in that last bit of red text.  There's no new subject.  But the rest looks good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Shouldn't actually be a comma before "but can weigh more" in that last bit of red text.  There's no new subject.  But the rest looks good to me.




A new subject is not required. The "can weigh more than twice that much" is a new clause, so can have a comma in front of it.


----------



## freyar (Jun 10, 2012)

Uggh, arguing about commas.  First off, it's not a clause unless it has a subject and predicate (see here); this is a phrase since it's not a complete thought.  New phrases introduced by conjunctions such as "and", "or", or "but" do not get commas, unless you're joining together three or more.  For example, "The 3-year old cannot read but can tie her shoes." should not have a comma.  On the other hand, you do need a comma in "The 3-year old cannot read, but she can tie her shoes."


----------



## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Uggh, arguing about commas.  First off, it's not a clause unless it has a subject and predicate (see here); this is a phrase since it's not a complete thought.  New phrases introduced by conjunctions such as "and", "or", or "but" do not get commas, unless you're joining together three or more.  For example, "The 3-year old cannot read but can tie her shoes." should not have a comma.  On the other hand, you do need a comma in "The 3-year old cannot read, but she can tie her shoes."




So you'll stop complaining about my comma if I make it "they can weigh more than twice as much"?


----------



## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

Yep. 

Sorry about the fuss, but I find comma mis-usage a great annoyance in RPG books.  Especially when they're used to slap two sentences together as a run-on, which happens quite frequently.


----------



## Cleon (Jun 11, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yep.
> 
> Sorry about the fuss, but I find comma mis-usage a great annoyance in RPG books.  Especially when they're used to slap two sentences together as a run-on, which happens quite frequently.




You say that like its a bad thing, nothing wrong with slapping a couple of sentences together with a comma. 

I'll update the *Working Draft* with._A large turtle-like creature with a viciously sharp beak._

A nikt'oo is not a turtle, although it looks  very much like one. These reptilian creatures can breathe both water and  air. Their shells are mostly thick hide, with inserts of bony plates.  Female nikt'oo live in the sea and in coastal forests. Male nikt'oo live  in the sea, emerging onto the shore only to fight for mates and breed.  Nikt'oo can be tamed and trained as mounts and beasts of burden. Usually  only female nikt'oo are trained, as the flipper-footed males are far  more aggressive and can not move easily on land. Nikt'oo are mostly domesticated by tortles, snappers, and other reptilian humanoids.

An adult niktoo is typically 10 to 12 feet long and stands about 3 feet  high. Adult female nikt'oo usually weigh about 2,500 pounds, but they can weigh more than twice as much. Male nikt'oo can grow much bigger than females, reaching lengths of up to 20 feet.​Done?


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2012)

All done.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2012)

freyar said:


> All done.




So which tersudine would you like to do next, The Father Of All Turtles or the Ferry Turtle?


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2012)

Take your pick; it matters not to me.


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## Cleon (Jun 13, 2012)

freyar said:


> Take your pick; it matters not to me.




The Ferry Turtle seems the easiest, since it's pretty close to a Nikt'oo.

Plus, it gives us more time to come up with something interesting to do with Grampa Turtle.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2012)

Sounds fine.  Post the stats at your leisure.


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sounds fine.  Post the stats at your leisure.




That'll have to wait for later. I have the stats typed out, but they're saved on another computer.


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## freyar (Jun 27, 2012)

When you have time.  I think it's going to take a while to get the CC going again, and I'm feeling melancholy enough to keep it moving slowly.


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2012)

Here's the AD&D original version of the "Ferry Turtle".

*Ferry*
Most visitors to Silvanost must cross the Thon-Thalas to enter the city. During the city’s early days, traditional ferryboats used rope lines or magic to move passengers from Fallon Island and the mainland. However, priests of the Blue Phoenix later enlarged several turtles to do the job.

As time passed, these large turtles bred, creating even more turtles to replace the older ones. When Speaker Lorac’s Nightmare twisted the forest and tainted the river, most of the turtles died. Thankfully, when Porthios and his forces cleared the forest of the Nightmares, the kirath discovered several turtles and a clutch of large eggs. Since then, this clutch has hatched, and now large turtles pull barges between the island and the mainland. Even the drain of the Silvanesti Shield hasn’t stopped these strong creatures performing their job.

*Giant turtle:* AC 1; MV 3; Sw 9; HD 4+4; hp 30; THAC0 17; #AT  1, Dmg 2d6 (bite); SZ L (8’ long); Int low (5); Al N.

_Originally appeared in The Sylvan Veil (1999)._


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> *Giant turtle:* AC 1; MV 3; Sw 9; HD 4+4; hp 30; THAC0 17; [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=AT]#AT [/URL]  1, Dmg 2d6 (bite); SZ L (8’ long); Int low (5); Al N.
> 
> _Originally appeared in The Sylvan Veil (1999)._




OK, compared to a Nikt'oo it's got a 4-point higher AC, slower speed, 1 more HD, lots more HP, does _slightly_ less damage and is a bit smaller.

Most importantly, it is intelligent.

So, turn a Nikt'oo into a Magical Beast with Int 5, add 4 NA and an additional HD, then lower the speed to 5 ft., swim 30 ft.

We should cut the Nikt'oo's Aquatic, Amphibious and Sever Limb abilities, then add a Hold Breath ability.

Do we want to give it the Giant Sea Turtle's Fortification and its ability to Withdraw its limbs?


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## Cleon (Jun 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> *Giant turtle:* AC 1; MV 3; Sw 9; HD 4+4; hp 30; THAC0 17; [URL=http://www.enworld.org/forum/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=AT]#AT [/URL]  1, Dmg 2d6 (bite); SZ L (8’ long); Int low (5); Al N.




What's up with this hash tag? I didn't put a hyperlink in there.


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2012)

Cleon said:


> lots more HP



The extra HD takes the hp up to 32 which is about what the original had. Or do you fancy bumping Con up a point (to 20) which will take the hp to 36?



> Do we want to give it the Giant Sea Turtle's Fortification and its ability to Withdraw its limbs?




Yeah, why not.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2012)

Mortis said:


> The extra HD takes the hp up to 32 which is about what the original had. Or do you fancy bumping Con up a point (to 20) which will take the hp to 36?




I think your sums are wrong there. As a magical beast it'll get 10-sided Hit Dice, giving it 4d10+16 HD with Con 19, for an average of 38 hit points.

Let's see, a 3 HD AD&D Nikt'oo averages 13.5 hp, which is less than half the 30 hp given for a "Ferry Turtle", which in turn is less than the 22 hp average of that turtle's 4+4 HD.

If we assume the 30 hp is just because the examples in _*Sylvan Veil*_ are exceptional specimens and just use the average hit points (22 hp vs 13.5 hp), that's a difference of +7.5 hp or +63%. That suggests our 3E update should have about 40-41 hp, based on our Nikt'oo conversion's 25 hp.

To get close to that hp target we need to either increase its Constitution to the next bonus number (Con 20-21), giving it an average of 42 hp, or give it Toughness, giving it an average of 41 hp.

Hmm, I'm tempted by the Toughness solution, since Con 21 just feels a little too high. Maybe make it a bonus feat?



Mortis said:


> Yeah, why not.




I think we've got enough for me to start a Working Draft. I'll launch one after I finish work today.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention - I think it should have a 1d8 bite (based on the damage progression of the Sea Turtles) rather than the Nikt'oo's 1d10 damage.


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2012)

*Ferry Turtle Working Draft*

*Ferry Turtle*
Large Magical Beast
*Hit Dice:* 4d10+20 (42 hp)
*Initiative:* -1
*Speed:* 5 ft. (1 squares), swim 30 ft.
*Armor Class:* 19 (-1 size, -1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 19
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +4/+13
*Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d8+7)
*Full Attack:* Bite +8 melee (1d8+7)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* —
*Special Qualities:* Fortification, hold breath, indefatigable swim, low-light vision, withdraw
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 20, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 5
*Skills:* Listen +5, Spot +8, Swim +13
*Feats:* Alertness, Endurance
*Environment:* Temperate or warm aquatic
*Organization:* Solitary or bale (2-8)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 5-8 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A turtle the size of a large ox. It has a smooth flat shell and powerful flippers._ 

Ferry turtles are intelligent chelonians that are often employed to tow  watercraft. They were originally created as a means of river  transportation, by magically enlarging ordinary turtles, and bred true  through a quirk of fate.

 A ferry turtle measures about 8 feet from snout to  tail, with a shell 6 feet in diameter, and weighs about 2500  pounds.

*COMBAT*

 Ferry turtles are docile creatures who would rather swim away or   withdraw into  their shells than fight.  When forced, however, they   attack with a  powerful bite.

*Fortification (Ex):* Whenever a critical hit or sneak attack is  scored on a ferry turtle there is a 75% chance that the special  attack is negated and its damage is rolled normally, similar to the  effect of armor enchanted with the Light Fortification quality. This  chance increases to 100% when the turtle withdraws its appendages into  its shell.

*Hold Breath (Ex):* A ferry turtle can hold its breath for a  number  of rounds equal to 10 × its Constitution score before it risks  drowning.  For a typical ferry turtle, this is 200 rounds, or 20 minutes.

*Indefatigable Swim (Ex):* A ferry turtle can swim for 16 hours instead of the 8 hours  of a normal creature. The  remaining time is usually spent resting and  eating. Thus, a ferry turtle can  move twice as many miles in a day as its 30  ft. swim speed would  indicate. If a ferry turtle swims for longer than 16  hours per day it can  become worn out (see the Forced March subsection  of the Overland  Movement rules). A ferry turtle can not use Indefatigable Swim while under the  effect of any spell or  special ability that increases its speed.

A ferry turtle can eat and sleep during a Indefatigable Swim and continue swimming. If it encounters a threat or  unexpected  obstacle while "sleep swimming" it can attempt a Listen or  Spot checks  to notice it, at a -5 penalty. If it succeeds the ferry turtle immediately  wakes up.

*Withdraw (Ex):* A giant sea turtle can pull in its head and limbs  to  protect its vulnerable areas. While withdrawn, the tortoise cannot  take  any actions other than exiting its shell, but it gains cover.   Withdrawing into its shell also grants the sea turtle heavy fortification, giving it 100% resistance to critical hits.

*Skills:* A ferry turtle has a +8 racial  bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action  or avoid a  hazard. A ferry turtle can use its Dexterity modifier or its  Strength  modifier on Swim checks. It can always choose to take 10 on a  Swim  check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action   while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

* Training A Ferry Turtle*
Although intelligent, a ferry turtle requires training before it can  bear a rider or drag a barge in combat. To be trained, a ferry turtle  must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved  through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly ferry turtle  requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check.

Riding a ferry turtle requires an exotic saddle. A ferry turtle can  fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he  or she succeeds on a Ride check. Ferry turtle eggs are worth 1,500 gp  apiece on the open market. Professional trainers charge 700 gp to rear  or train a ferry turtle.

*Carrying Capacity:* Due to their sturdy build, ferry turtles can bear   exceptionally heavy  loads. Their carrying capacity is twice that of  an ordinary creature  with their size and their Strength. A typical ferry  turtle can  carry a  light load of up to 800 pounds, a medium load of 801-1600 pound,  a   heavy load of 1601-2400 pounds, and can drag 12,000 pounds.

*In Krynn*
Ferry turtles were created by priests of the Blue Phoenix to tow  passenger-ferries to the city of Silvanost. Most of them died when  Speaker Lorac's Nightmare poisoned the Thon-Thalas river, but a few  adults and a clutch of eggs survived and those turtles and their  descendants still move cargo barges and ferryboats between Fallon island  and the mainland.

_Originally appeared in The Sylvan Veil (1999)_


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## Cleon (Jun 28, 2012)

I just realized I forgot to make the Endurance feat in the *Nikt'oo Working Draft* a bonus feat, and its Fort save didn't include the Great Fortitude.

It's fixed now.


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## Mortis (Jun 29, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I think your sums are wrong there. As a magical beast it'll get 10-sided Hit Dice, giving it 4d10+16 HD with Con 19, for an average of 38 hit points.



I didn't get them wrong, I just missed the bit where you changed them to magical beasts - which, of course, they should be given their Intelligence. 


> Hmm, I'm tempted by the Toughness solution, since Con 21 just feels a little too high. Maybe make it a bonus feat?



I'd like Con 20 - but that would make the stats a bit 'wonky', I'd rather not give a 4HD creature 2 bonus feats (assuming it keeps Endurance) but that's probably just me. Don't mind Toughness or even Improved Tougness (is that in the SRD?) as a standard feat.

Regards
Mortis


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## Cleon (Jun 29, 2012)

Mortis said:


> I didn't get them wrong, I just missed the bit where you changed them to magical beasts - which, of course, they should be given their Intelligence.




Actually, you said they would average 32 hit points, while a 4 Hit Dice Con 19 Animal's  averages 34 hit points. (4d8 + 16 = 4*4.5 + 16 = 18 + 16 = 34)



Mortis said:


> I'd like Con 20 - but that would make the stats a bit 'wonky', I'd rather not give a 4HD creature 2 bonus feats (assuming it keeps Endurance) but that's probably just me. Don't mind Toughness or even Improved Tougness (is that in the SRD?) as a standard feat.
> 
> Regards
> Mortis




I was thinking we could cut the Weapon Focus (bite), since they don't seem to be aggressive biters like a Nikt'oo and they have the better BAB of a Magical Beast.

Further, their extra HD gives them a point higher base Fort save.

Thus, we could give them Endurance and Toughness as regular feats if we wanted too.

Let's see what Freyar thinks...


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## freyar (Jun 29, 2012)

Con 20 and bump Cha to 5. 

I think we should keep Indefatigable Swim but perhaps alter it slightly to give it a larger than usual carrying capacity.

EDIT: on the feats, let's definitely drop Weapon Focus and give them Endurance and Toughness as the normal feats.


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## Cleon (Jun 30, 2012)

freyar said:


> Con 20 and bump Cha to 5.




*As you like*.



freyar said:


> I think we should keep Indefatigable Swim but perhaps alter it slightly to give it a larger than usual carrying capacity.




I'm unsure as to how many turtles pulled each ferry. It could have been several per barge. Also, would they use their "drag" weight to determine how heavy a ferry they can pull? I suppose if it's more than their "heavy load" they won't be able to tow it very quickly.

Hmm, I suppose a *Sled* is the closest thing on the Equipment List to a small ferry. They weigh 300 pounds. If we assume it can carry six people like a *Carriage*, that's another 1500 pounds or so.

That's 1800 pounds in toto, which is more than the 1200 pound heavy load of a Ferry Turtle, so I wouldn't object to increasing it. 

However, I'd rather keep the Indefatigable Swim as-is and modify the Carrying Capacity entry, like we did for the *Xytar (and Camarilla)*.

I propose one of the following:

*Carrying Capacity #1 :* Due to their sturdy build, ferry turtles can bear  exceptionally heavy loads. Their carrying capacity is 50% higher than an ordinary creature with their size and their Strength. A typical ferry turtle can  carry a light load of up to 600 pounds, a medium load of 601-1200 pound, a  heavy load of 1201-1800 pounds, and can drag 9,000 pounds.

*Carrying Capacity #2 :* Due to their sturdy build, ferry turtles can bear   exceptionally heavy loads. Their carrying capacity is twice that of  an ordinary creature with their size and their Strength. A typical ferry  turtle can  carry a light load of up to 800 pounds, a medium load of 801-1600 pound,  a  heavy load of 1601-2400 pounds, and can drag 12,000 pounds.

#2  seems the most appropriate.



freyar said:


> EDIT: on the feats, let's definitely drop Weapon Focus and give them Endurance and Toughness as the normal feats.




Increasing the Con to 20 accomplishes the target HP I was aiming for, so it doesn't need the Toughness too.

So, we can use that feat for something else.

Maybe Alertness, Diehard, Iron Will or Run?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2012)

Yes, let's go for Carrying Capacity option 2.  

Alertness seems like the most appropriate of those feats.

I'm fine with the 75% fortification and 100% when withdrawn.  These are magical critters, after all, and they just seem like they'd be tough.

Looks like we need 200 rounds/20 minutes for Hold Breath.

CR 4?  They seem to fall in between the juvenile and adult tojanida, which are similarish critters.


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## Echohawk (Jul 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> I'm unsure as to how many turtles pulled each ferry. It could have been several per barge.



I've just spent more than an hour paging through a variety of Dragonlance sources to try to provide a firm answer to this question, but it seems that the ferry turtles are only mentioned once, in _The Sylan Veil_, and that doesn't specify how many pull each barge.

Still, given the troubled recent history of Silvanesti (turned into a nightmare realm for thirty years by King Lorac and the Dragonorb; tricked by Cyan Bloodbane into raising a shield which killed nearly half of the population; invaded by Mina and the Dark Knights; and finally, invaded again by minotaurs during the War of Souls) I guess it isn't terribly surprising that these turtles don't get more attention. 

It is probably safest to assume that a small to average barge could be pulled by one ferry turtle, and that larger craft would make use of more turtles.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying "I like Carrying Capacity option 2" as well


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## Cleon (Jul 3, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, let's go for Carrying Capacity option 2.
> 
> Alertness seems like the most appropriate of those feats.
> 
> ...




Updating *Working Draft*.

I moved some SPs from Spot to Listen.

Challenge Rating 4 seems a bit high. It's not that far from the CR 3 Ogre as far as its combat abilities go. The Ogre does a bit more damage and has a ranged attack with Reach, but the Turtle has better defences.

They look more like a 3 to me.

What about Organization and Advancement?

Will we have them living in groups? I like the idea of them being social beasts.

Do we want them Advancing to Huge size, or will we keep them Large?


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## Echohawk (Jul 3, 2012)

Cleon said:


> Will we have them living in groups? I like the idea of them being social beasts.
> 
> Do we want them Advancing to Huge size, or will we keep them Large



I think they probably shouldn't get any bigger. They were magically enlarged in the first place, so it strikes me that their default size should be the largest they get.

I'm also not sure they should be social beasts, since the only examples were bred in captivity and are used as beasts of burden. Then again, they might have retained social traits from their original forms and indeed live in groups when not put to work pulling barges.


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## Cleon (Jul 4, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> I think they probably shouldn't get any bigger. They were magically enlarged in the first place, so it strikes me that their default size should be the largest they get.




I'm OK either way.

Reptiles tend to grow slowly throughout their adult lives, so wouldn't mind it if particularly ancient Ferry Turtles grown to Huge size, but if you're all agin' it I'd be OK without size Advancement.



Echohawk said:


> I'm also not sure they should be social beasts, since the only examples were bred in captivity and are used as beasts of burden. Then again, they might have retained social traits from their original forms and indeed live in groups when not put to work pulling barges.




Well, they are intelligent creatures that are willing to work for another species, which suggests to me they are unlikely to be "unsocial".

At the very least, I think they'd be tolerant enough of other Ferry Turtles to live together. They may not necessarily _cooperate_ with each other, so each individual turtle in a group in the wild tends to "do its own thing", but I don't think they should be solitary creatures like, say, a leopard.


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## freyar (Jul 6, 2012)

This is the problem with the somewhat uneven CR system.  There is a pretty big difference in damage-dealing potential between the ferry turtle and ogre, but, as you say, the turtle's defenses are much better, including quite a few more hp.  Plus, it lives in the water, which is a little tough for most PCs of that level to deal with (given the good defenses, ranged attacks would take a while to do too much to them).  Meanwhile, it's much better than the juvenile tojanida.  And I'd say it's comparable to the CR 4 sea cat.  Maybe this is a case of the ogre being under-CRed?  Anyway, I'd prefer CR 4, but I don't think it makes a huge difference, as these shouldn't be targets most of the time.


Turtles are pretty social in my experience, in as much as they hang around in fairly large groups as often as not, even if they don't really interact most of the time.  So I'd think a group organization of 4-20 is reasonable.  One noun for a group of turtles is a "bale"; how about using that?


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2012)

freyar said:


> This is the problem with the somewhat uneven CR system.  There is a pretty big difference in damage-dealing potential between the ferry turtle and ogre, but, as you say, the turtle's defenses are much better, including quite a few more hp.  Plus, it lives in the water, which is a little tough for most PCs of that level to deal with (given the good defenses, ranged attacks would take a while to do too much to them).  Meanwhile, it's much better than the juvenile tojanida.  And I'd say it's comparable to the CR 4 sea cat.  Maybe this is a case of the ogre being under-CRed?  Anyway, I'd prefer CR 4, but I don't think it makes a huge difference, as these shouldn't be targets most of the time.




Compared to our Ferry Turtle, the Sea Cat's got more HP, three attacks that add up to higher damage (1d8+7 vs 1d6+4 & 1d6+4 & 1d8+2), ans Rend for even more damage (2d6+6). It's a good CR 4, but is a nastier combatant than the Ferry Turtle.

We seem to be at an impasse, shall we turn to Echohawk to decide?



freyar said:


> Turtles are pretty social in my experience, in as much as they hang around in fairly large groups as often as not, even if they don't really interact most of the time.  So I'd think a group organization of 4-20 is reasonable.  One noun for a group of turtles is a "bale"; how about using that?




Quite, it's the "hanging around together" that I was thinking of.

Bale's a good collective noun for them. Maybe it's inspired by the goods they ferry?

I was thinking of a smaller number than that. The Giant Snapping Turtle is encountered in groups of 1-4, and the Giant Sea Turtle has a 1-3 No. Appearing.

How about 2-8 for the Ferry Turtle group size?


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## Echohawk (Jul 6, 2012)

Cleon said:


> We seem to be at an impasse, shall we turn to Echohawk to decide?



I recall the ogre being under-CRed, so that's probably not the best creature to use for comparison purposes. But I'm really not good at judging CRs at all -- it's been far too long since I ran any 3.x monsters. 

I'll let a coin toss decide instead... and the coin seems to think that the ferry turtle should be CR 3.


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2012)

Echohawk said:


> I recall the ogre being under-CRed, so that's probably not the best creature to use for comparison purposes. But I'm really not good at judging CRs at all -- it's been far too long since I ran any 3.x monsters.
> 
> I'll let a coin toss decide instead... and the coin seems to think that the ferry turtle should be CR 3.




Ha! Victory is Mine!! Random Numbers are My Friend!!!

Oh and  Updating *Working Draft*!!!!

I Think That's Enough Exclamation Marks!!!!!


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## Cleon (Jul 6, 2012)

So Freyar, where are you standing on the Size Advancement and Organization questions?



Cleon said:


> Echohawk said:
> 
> 
> > I think they probably shouldn't get any bigger.  They were magically enlarged in the first place, so it strikes me that  their default size should be the largest they get.
> ...




I'm leaning towards giving them have a size advancement, but would be OK without it.



Cleon said:


> freyar said:
> 
> 
> > Turtles are pretty social in my experience, in as  much as they hang around in fairly large groups as often as not, even if  they don't really interact most of the time.  So I'd think a group  organization of 4-20 is reasonable.  One noun for a group of turtles is a  "bale"; how about using that?
> ...


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## freyar (Jul 7, 2012)

Let's leave off the size advancement, I think.  But I'd go 5-8 HD (Large).

2-8 for the bale is fine.


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's leave off the size advancement, I think.  But I'd go 5-8 HD (Large).
> 
> 2-8 for the bale is fine.




No objections to that.

Updating *Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Jul 13, 2012)

I assume we're happy with the stats.

Tactics: Ferry turtles are docile creatures who usually prefer to withdraw into their shells rather than fight.  When forced, however, they attack with a powerful bite.


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## Cleon (Jul 14, 2012)

freyar said:


> I assume we're happy with the stats.




You assume correctly.



freyar said:


> Tactics: Ferry turtles are docile creatures who usually prefer to  withdraw into their shells rather than fight.  When forced, however,  they attack with a powerful bite.




I'd like to add a "swim away" option:

Ferry turtles are docile creatures who would rather swim away or withdraw into  their shells than fight.  When forced, however, they attack with a  powerful bite.


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## freyar (Jul 17, 2012)

Sure thing, update away.  Any ideas on background?  The original has some text about magical breeding, so shall we keep that?


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure thing, update away.  Any ideas on background?  The original has some text about magical breeding, so shall we keep that?




We ought to work it in somewhere, yes.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2012)

Hmmm....  I like the descriptive text, by the way.

Ferry turtles were originally enlarged magically as a means of river transportation, but their size bred true through a quirk of fate.  

Hmm.  I was about to put in a bit about their intelligence and liking to ferry things, but I got to thinking about training.  Should we add a training section with the usual magical beast modifications?


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## Cleon (Jul 18, 2012)

freyar said:


> Hmmm....  I like the descriptive text, by the way.




 Yes, _"A turtle of unusual size"_ was definitely one of the best things I've ever written. 

Shall I update the Tactics with the proposed  "Ferry turtles are docile creatures who would rather swim away or  withdraw into  their shells than fight.  When forced, however, they  attack with a  powerful bite."



freyar said:


> Ferry turtles were originally enlarged magically as a means of river transportation, but their size bred true through a quirk of fate.




Needs some work methinks, I'll have a think after work today...



freyar said:


> Hmm.  I was about to put in a bit about their intelligence and liking to ferry things, but I got to thinking about training.  Should we add a training section with the usual magical beast modifications?




They should probably have a Training Section, yes.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2012)

Yes, please update away.

TRAINING A FERRY TURTLE

Although intelligent, a ferry turtle requires training before it can bear a rider or drag a barge in combat. To be trained, a ferry turtle must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer (this can be achieved through a successful Diplomacy check). Training a friendly ferry turtle requires six weeks of work and a DC 25 Handle Animal check.

Riding a ferry turtle requires an exotic saddle. A ferry turtle can fight while carrying a rider, but the rider cannot also attack unless he or she succeeds on a Ride check. Ferry turtle eggs are worth 1,500 gp apiece on the open market. Professional trainers charge 700 gp to rear or train a ferry turtle.

Just guesstimated at the prices there.


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## Cleon (Jul 19, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, please update away.
> 
> TRAINING A FERRY TURTLE
> 
> ...




The training section looks fine, including price. They may have the same CR as Griffons but they are a lot less valuable mounts - they can't fly, for a start!

Updating *Ferry Turtle Working Draft* with tactics & training.

I also cut out the red question from "*Environment:* Temperate or warm aquatic *[?]*", I assume you have no objection.

That just leaves background and description. I'm not getting any inspiration about either at the moment, maybe later.


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## freyar (Jul 19, 2012)

Here's a start.  I'm roughly basing the description on a painted turtle.

_This turtle is the size of a carriage.  It has a smooth flat shell with colored spots and stripes along the shell and neck._

Ferry turtles were originally enlarged magically as a means of river transportation, but their size bred true through a quirk of fate.  Ferry turtles are docile creatures who willingly haul barges even without training.


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## Cleon (Jul 20, 2012)

freyar said:


> Here's a start.  I'm roughly basing the description on a painted turtle.
> 
> _This turtle is the size of a carriage.  It has a smooth flat shell with colored spots and stripes along the shell and neck._
> 
> Ferry turtles were originally enlarged magically as a means of river transportation, but their size bred true through a quirk of fate.  Ferry turtles are docile creatures who willingly haul barges even without training.




They're only 8 foot from nose to tail. That seems a lot smaller than a carriage.

I'd rather not give a color, since there's no mention of it in the original text.

_A turtle the size of a large ox. It has a smooth flat shell and powerful flippers._

Ferry turtles are intelligent chelonians that are often employed to tow watercraft. They were originally created as a means of river transportation, by magically enlarging ordinary turtles, and bred true through a quirk of fate.

Do we want an "In Krynn" subsection?


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## freyar (Jul 21, 2012)

There wasn't a whole lot to go on for Krynn, but feel free if you think there's enough to be worth it.  I guess we could say, "Ferry turtles are used to transport visitors to Silvanost across the Thon-Thalas." if nothing else.


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## Cleon (Jul 21, 2012)

freyar said:


> There wasn't a whole lot to go on for Krynn, but feel free if you think there's enough to be worth it.  I guess we could say, "Ferry turtles are used to transport visitors to Silvanost across the Thon-Thalas." if nothing else.




They were created by a special order of elven priests weren't they? The "Blue Phoenix" if I remember rightly. We can do something with that.


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## freyar (Jul 23, 2012)

It does say that.  And that they were lost during Speaker Lorac's Nightmare, but some were found later.  I can't say I know much about Krynn, so I wouldn't know what to do with that.


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## Cleon (Jul 23, 2012)

freyar said:


> It does say that.  And that they were lost during Speaker Lorac's Nightmare, but some were found later.  I can't say I know much about Krynn, so I wouldn't know what to do with that.




Don't ask me, I never ran any Dragonlance apart from the first adventure (module DL1).


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

Let's give it one more day to see if anyone knows more and can improve on the following:

In Krynn
Ferry turtles are used to transport visitors to Silvanost across the Thon-Thalas.  They were initially created by priests of the Blue Phoenix, but only a few survived Speaker Lorac's Nightmare.


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Let's give it one more day to see if anyone knows more and can improve on the following:
> 
> In Krynn
> Ferry turtles are used to transport visitors to Silvanost across the Thon-Thalas.  They were initially created by priests of the Blue Phoenix, but only a few survived Speaker Lorac's Nightmare.




Hmm...

I think we can elaborate that a bit, how about...

*In Krynn*
Ferry turtles were created by priests of the Blue Phoenix to tow passenger-ferries to the city of Silvanost. Most of them died when Speaker Lorac's Nightmare poisoned the Thon-Thalas river, but a few adults and a clutch of eggs survived and those turtles and their descendants still move cargo barges and ferryboats between Fallon island and the mainland.


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## freyar (Jul 25, 2012)

Sure, that's fine by me!


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## Cleon (Jul 25, 2012)

freyar said:


> Sure, that's fine by me!




Updating *Ferry Turtle Working Draft*.

Looks pretty finished to me!


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## freyar (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes, let's just add "Originally appeared in The Sylvan Veil (1999)," as we discussed.

Shall we allow this thread to rest a little?  I think we're low on prehistoric critters anyway.


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## Cleon (Jul 27, 2012)

freyar said:


> Yes, let's just add "Originally appeared in The Sylvan Veil (1999)," as we discussed.




I didn't fancy going back through all the monsters we've already declared finished and adding accreditations, but we should do it to the Conversion in Progress as we update them.

Updating *Ferry Turtle Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Shall we allow this thread to rest a little?  I think we're low on prehistoric critters anyway.




were'nt we more-or-less out of them? Isn't that why we're stretching the definition of "prehistoric critter" to include giant-sized Pre-Cambrian lifeforms and intelligent turtles?

Anyhow, I have no objection to letting this thread go to sleep for a while.


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## Cleon (Jul 7, 2013)

While reviewing out CC entries I discovered we don't have a conversion for the Cave Bear - probably because we got it confused with our conversion for the *Bulldog Bear*.

We might as well do it, just for completeness sake.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2013)

Sure.  Are there any old edition stats, or is this just from general knowledge?


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2013)

freyar said:


> Sure.  Are there any old edition stats, or is this just from general knowledge?




Actually, there are two old edition Cave Bears. There's an AD&D Cave Bear that is smaller and weaker than the BECMI version.

The AD&D Cave Bear is neatly inbetween the AD&D Brown Bear and Polar Bear in strength:

Brown: 5+5 HD, attacks of 1-6/1-6/1-8, 9' tall.
Cave: 6+6 HD, attacks of 1-8/1-8/1-12, 12' tall.
Polar: 8+8 HD, attacks of 1-10/1-10/2-12, 14' tall.

The BECMI Cave Bear is the strongest of the regular Bears in that system, with the Polar Bear being neatly between it and the Grizzly Bear, that system's version of the Brown:

Grizzly: 5 HD, attacks of 1d8/1d8/1d10, 9' tall.
Polar: 6 HD, attacks of 1d6/1d6/1d10, 11' tall.
Cave: 7 HD, attacks of 2d4/2d4/2d6, 15' tall.

Even I'm not obsessive enough to want to convert two separate versions, so I'd be OK combining the two into one.

I'll post the original stats.


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## Cleon (Jul 17, 2013)

*Cave Bear Original Stats*

_*This is the most recent AD&D version:
*_
*Bear
Cave*
*Climate/Terrain:* Any land
*Frequency:* Uncommon
*Organization:* Family
*Activity Cycle:* Day
*Diet:* Omnivore
*Intelligence:* Semi- (2- 4)
*Treasure:* Nil
*Alignment:* Neutral
*No. Appearing:* 1-2
*Armor Class:* 6
*Movement:* 12
*Hit Dice:* 6+6
*THAC0:* 13
* No. of Attacks:* 3
*Damage/Attack:* 1- 8/1-8/1-12
*Special Attacks:* Hug
*Special Defenses:* Nil
*Magic Resistance:* Nil
*Size:* H (12’+ tall)
*Morale:* Average (8-10)
*XP Value:* 650

A rather common omnivorous mammal, bears tend to avoid humans unless provoked. Exceptions to this rule can be a most unfortunate occurrence.

Bears are, in general, large and powerful animals which are found throughout the world’s temperate and cooler climates. With dense fur protecting them from the elements and powerful claws protecting them from other animals, bears are the true rulers of the animal kingdom in the areas where they live.

*SNIP*

*Habitat/Society:* All bears have excellent senses of hearing and smell but rather poor eyesight. The size shown is an average for the variety and larger individuals will, of course, be correspondingly more powerful.

One common misconception people hold about bears is that they hibernate during the winter. In fact, they sleep most of the time, but their metabolism does not slow down, and they often wake up and leave their lairs during warm spells.

Bears live in small family groups. Female bears are very protective of their young, and more than one individual has been badly injured when taunting or playing with seemingly harmless bear cubs.

*Ecology:* All of these ursoids are omnivorous, although the gigantic cave bear tends towards a diet of meat.

Bears are fairly intelligent animals that can be trained to perform in a variety of ways, particularly if captured as cubs. Bears can thus be found dancing in circuses or accompanying “mountain men” in the wilderness.

*Cave Bear *
Cave bears are quite aggressive, willing to attack well-armed parties without provocation. If a cave bear scores a paw hit with an 18 or better it also hugs for 2-16 (2d8) points of additional damage. Cave bears will continue to fight for 1-4 melee rounds after reaching 0 to -8 hit points. At -9 or fewer hit points, they are killed immediately.

_Originally from Monster Manual (1977); updated to 2nd Edition AD&D in Monstrous Compendium Volume One (1989) and reprinted in Monstrous Manual (1993)_.

_*This is the BECMI version from the Rules Cyclopedia:*_

*Bear*
_Cave _
*Armor Class:* 5
*Hit Dice:* 7 (L)
*Move:* 120’ (40’)
*Attacks:* 2 claws/1 bite
*Damage:* 2d4/2d4/2d6
*No. Appearing:* 1-2 (1d2)
*Save As:* F4
*Morale:* 9
*Treasure Type:* V
*Intelligence:* 2
*Alignment:* Neutral
*XP Value:* 450

_Monster Type:_ Black, Grizzly Bears: Normal Animal (Common). Polar Bear: Normal Animal (Rare). Cave Bear: Prehistoric Animal (Very Rare).
Bears are well known to all adventurers. If any bear hits one victim with both paws in one round, the bear hugs its victim and inflicts 2d8 points of additional damage in that same round.
*Cave Bear:* These enormous bears stand about 15’ tall. They do not see well at all but hunt very well by scent. If hungry, they will follow a track of blood until they have eaten. They prefer a diet of fresh-killed red meat and live in caves, mostly in prehistoric environments or very distant mountain areas where human civilization has not penetrated.
_Terrain:_ Hill, Mountain, Woods. (Cave Bear: Same, but prehistoric.)

_From D&D Rules Cyclopedia (1991)._

_*The BECMI Cave Bear first appeared in the Moldvay Basic Set with an interesting bit of flavour text:*_

*Cave bear:* A cave bear is a type of giant grizzly bear which lives in caves and “lost world” areas. It stands about 15’ tall and is the most ferocious of all the bears. Though omnivorous, a cave bear prefers meat and enjoys human flesh. Cave bears have bad eyesight but a good sense of smell. If hungry, they will follow a track of blood until they have eaten.

_D&D Basic Set (Moldvay, 1981)_.


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## freyar (Jul 24, 2013)

I'd be inclined to do the just the "big and strong" version.  Seems like they have a constrict version of rend, can't remember if we've done that before.

Anyway, start with 7HD and a good Con to go with the 6+6 HD of the AD&D version?


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## Cleon (Jul 24, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'd be inclined to do the just the "big and strong" version.  Seems like they have a constrict version of rend, can't remember if we've done that before.




AD&D and BECMI Cave bears use the exact same "hug" mechanic as the other standard bears (black, brown, polar etc.), suggesting we should just give them Improved Grab like the SRD Brown and Polar Bears.



freyar said:


> Anyway, start with 7HD and a good Con to go with the 6+6 HD of the AD&D version?




Yes, i was thinking 7 Hit Dice too. This makes them smaller than the 3E/AD&D Polar Bear's 8 HD. It makes more sense to use the BECMI version since it has more differences from a brown/polar bear.

The SRD Brown Bear and Polar Bear have identical ability scores, natural weapon damage and AC.

The BECMI Cave Bear has a 1-point better AC, higher damage (2d6 bite vs. 1d10, plus 2d4 claws vs 1d8 or 1d6)

Give it another point of NA and 2d4 claws and 2d8 bite like a Dire Bear?

I'd rather not give it a higher Con, since all the Large Bears in the SRD have Con 19. I'd be willing to entertain a 2 point increase in Strength, though.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2013)

Con 19 is probably good enough.  I'm ok with increasing NA by +1 and damage to match the dire bear.  Probably don't need to increase Str if we're increasing damage, but I'd think about that, too.  Shall we give these the dire property?


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2013)

freyar said:


> Con 19 is probably good enough.  I'm ok with increasing NA by +1 and damage to match the dire bear.  Probably don't need to increase Str if we're increasing damage, but I'd think about that, too.  Shall we give these the dire property?




Well historical cave bears weren't any bigger than a large grizzly or a polar bear so we could easily keep it at Str 27.

That wouldn't give it much to distinguish it from a standard Brown Bear, though.

Making it a Dire Animal would certainly help. We used that approach for the Short-Faced Bear.

Might as well start a Working Draft.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2013)

*Cave Bear Working Draft*

*Bear, Cave*
Large Animal
*Hit Dice:* 7d8+28 (59 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares)
*Armor Class:* 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+18
*Attack:* Claw +13 melee (2d4+9)
*Full Attack:* 2 claws +13 melee (2d4+9) and bite +11 melee (2d8+4)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Improved grab, rend 2d8+13
*Special Qualities:* Dire, low-light vision, scent
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +6
*Abilities:* Str 29, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
*Skills:* Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +13, Survival +2* (+6 track by scent)
*Feats:* Endurance, Multiattack, Track
*Environment:* Cold forests and hills
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* None
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 8-12 HD (Large)
*Level Adjustment:* —

_A massively built bear with a steep forehead and domed skull._ 

The size of the largest brown bears, these fearsome omnivores are named  after their preference for hibernating in caves. Cave bears mainly eat  plants, but will devour meat if they happen upon it. They rarely bother  creatures that respectfully avoid them, but can be highly dangerous to  anything that threatens their territory or food sources.

A typical cave bear is 10 feet long and weighs as much as 2,000  pounds. The largest specimens stand up to 12 feet tall when they rear up  on their hind legs.

*Combat*
A cave bear mainly attacks by tearing at opponents with its claws, rending anything they hit with both paws.

*Improved Grab (Ex):* To use this ability, a cave bear must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. 

*Rend (Ex):*  A cave bear that hits with both claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d8+13 points of damage. 

*Skills:* A cave bear has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks.

*A cave bear has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.

_Originally appeared in Monster Manual (1977)_.


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2013)

It's a good start.  I'd think seriously about giving it rend but don't think I'd go for maul.  BTW, where did the frightful roar come from?


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> It's a good start.  I'd think seriously about  giving it rend but don't think I'd go for maul.




So base of 2d8 for the Rend damage?



freyar said:


> BTW, where did the frightful roar come from?




It's from copy-and-pasting the statblock from the Bulldog Bear. I thought I'd got rid of it.


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## Cleon (Aug 14, 2013)

Cleon said:


> Well historical cave bears weren't any bigger than a large grizzly or a polar bear so we could easily keep it at Str 27.




I'm still wondering about giving it a Strength bump. A Cave Bear was as big as the largest brown bears (e.g. a Kodiak bear), not an "average-sized" brown bear.

Hmm, although the SRD Brown Bear weighs "more than 1,800 pounds", which is *very* big for a _Ursus arctos_ which implies its Str 27 is representative of said largest brown bears.

Further, Cave Bears were also about the size of a Polar Bear, which have Str 27.

It's just that an extra half-point (1d8 to 2d4) of average claw damage and an extra point (2d6 to 2d8) of average bite damage seems a little low relative to comparative proportions of the original.

AD&D 1d6 claws vs 1d8 claws (+29%), 1d8 bite vs 1d12 bite (+44%)
3rd Ed 1d8+8 claws vs 2d4+8 claws (+4%), 2d6+4 bite vs 2d8+4 bite (+18%)

The BECMI Grizzly/Cave Bears make a better comparison, though:

BECMI 1d8 claws vs 2d4 claws (+11%), 1d10 bite vs 2d6 bite (+27%)


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## freyar (Aug 28, 2013)

Let's not over-think this too much.  How about Str 29?


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2013)

freyar said:


> Let's not over-think this too much.  How about Str 29?




Suits me.

Updating *Cave Bear Working Draft*.


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## freyar (Sep 2, 2013)

2d8 Rend and Imp Grab will work.  Do these need anything else special?  They're looking fairly good to me.


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## Cleon (Sep 3, 2013)

freyar said:


> 2d8 Rend and Imp Grab will work.  Do these need anything else special?  They're looking fairly good to me.




I think that'll do for them mechanically apart from the skills. The rest is just flavor.

How about:

*Skills:* Listen +4, Spot +7, Survival +2
*Environment:* Cold forests and hills
*Organization:* Solitary or pair
*Challenge Rating:* 5 [the Rend means they potentially do a LOT of damage and they have a Dire Animal's all-good saves]


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2013)

I'll agree to all that.  Am I correct in guessing that you have some paleontological background for these?


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## Cleon (Sep 14, 2013)

freyar said:


> I'll agree to all that.




Updating *Cave Bear Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Am I correct in guessing  that you have some paleontological background for these?




I'm not fancying anything too elaborate. How about this:

_A massively built bear with a steep forehead and domed skull._ 

The size of the largest brown bears, these fearsome omnivores are named after their preference for hibernating in caves. Cave bears mainly eat plants, but will devour meat if they happen upon it. They rarely bother creatures that respectfully avoid them, but can be highly dangerous to anything that threatens their territory or food sources.

 	A typical cave bear is 10 feet long and weighs as much as 2,000 pounds. The largest specimens stand up to 12 feet tall when they rear up on their hind legs.

*Combat*
A cave bear mainly attacks by tearing at opponents with its claws, rending anything they hit with both paws.


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## freyar (Oct 4, 2013)

Looks good!  Do they only need the copyright/credit information?


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

freyar said:


> Looks good!  Do they only need the copyright/credit information?




Looks that way.

Updating *Cave Bear Working Draft*.

Hold on a sec, I forgot the +4 racial bonus to Swim most bears get.

Re-Updating *Cave Bear Working Draft*.


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## Cleon (Oct 6, 2013)

I've just remembered something.

The Hollow World version of the cave bear's flavour text says it "hunts well by scent", so how about giving it a +4 racial bonus on track-by-scent Survival checks?

We gave the same ability to the *Short-Faced Bear* conversion.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2013)

Agreed to +4 Survival when by scent.

Is this thread ready for a rest?


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## Cleon (Oct 17, 2013)

freyar said:


> Agreed to +4 Survival when by scent.




Re-Re-Updating *Cave Bear Working Draft*.



freyar said:


> Is this thread ready for a rest?




Well we seem to have finished with _Ursus spelaeus_ so we can let this thread lie fallow if you like.


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