# Star Wars: Andor



## Aeson

It premiers on September 21 with 3 episodes. I am so excited it's finally here.


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## Zardnaar

Trailers looked good, we have Disney+ so yeah hopefully it's good.


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## Dioltach

Oooooh, this looks good!


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## Celebrim

The only Disney era Star Wars I actually liked was Rogue One, so I'm tentatively hopeful about Andor.  

Mandalorian had a few good moments, but ultimately went off the rails, and Book of Boba Fett ended all my interest in the Disney TV shows until this one.


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## pukunui

I love _Rogue One_. I’m really excited for this show. 

I’m also looking forward to Mando S3!


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## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> I love _Rogue One_. I’m really excited for this show.
> 
> I’m also looking forward to Mando S3!




Both look reasonably good.


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## Aeson

I told someone my only reason for having Disney+ is Star Wars and Marvel. I've watched a few things but it's mostly Star Wars and Marvel. I'm ready for Willow but it's Lucas Films so it's Star Wars adjacent. I enjoyed Rogue One very much. I'm also the one person on Earth that likes Solo.


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## Rabulias

Aeson said:


> I'm also the one person on Earth that likes Solo.



You're not alone. I am quite bummed that we won't get more with the characters and the threads set up in the film.


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## Zaukrie

Rabulias said:


> You're not alone. I am quite bummed that we won't get more with the characters and the threads set up in the film.



Agreed. I really liked that movie.


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## Aeson

Rabulias said:


> You're not alone. I am quite bummed that we won't get more with the characters and the threads set up in the film.



I keep seeing rumors Qi'ra may appear on The Mandalorian. But, it's just rumor.


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## Aeson

I derailed my own thread. lol


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## Rabulias

Aeson said:


> I keep seeing rumors Qi'ra may appear on The Mandalorian. But, it's just rumor.



Timeline-wise, it might be easier for her to show up in _Andor_, if not this season, then maybe in season 2. _The Mandalorian_ is about 19 years after we last saw her, and I want to see a lot of the intervening time. Like her dealings with Maul, taking the leadership of Crimson Dawn when he is gone, and dealing with the Empire, to just name a few.


Aeson said:


> I derailed my own thread. lol



Happy to bring it kinda back on track.


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## Aeson

That would make more sense. I think it's because she's a popular character and The Mandalorian is the flagship show. The rebellion working with or crossing paths with the underworld would certainly happen. Maul and Qi'ra making appearances could easily be worked in.


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## pukunui

For the record, I also really liked _Solo_ and would like to see more of Qi’ra.

I would also like to see more of Donald Glover as the younger Lando.


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## Zardnaar

I liked Solo as well. If they continue the story it will be in the comics imho.


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## Dioltach

My name is Dioltach, and I liked Solo.


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## Davies

Aeson said:


> I enjoyed Rogue One very much. I'm also the one person on Earth that likes Solo.



Signs point to no on that last one.


Zardnaar said:


> I liked Solo as well. If they continue the story it will be in the comics imho.



Has been already -- Qi'ra has featured as a major player in the current Marvel storyline, set between 5 & 6.


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## Zardnaar

Davies said:


> Signs point to no on that last one.
> 
> Has been already -- Qi'ra has featured as a major player in the current Marvel storyline, set between 5 & 6.




 Yeah think I saw something like that on YouTube. Couldn't remember the timeline. Think she was dueling Vader


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## Aeson

Dueling Vader with what? Did they make her Force sensitive?


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## Morrus

Aeson said:


> I'm also the one person on Earth that likes Solo.



It was fine. It shouldn't have forcibly namechecked the name, blaster, etc. But it was a decent space action film.


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## Zardnaar

Aeson said:


> Dueling Vader with what? Did they make her Force sensitive?




 Shotos iirc. Haven't read the comics just the YouTube recap.


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## Rabulias

Davies said:


> Has been already -- Qi'ra has featured as a major player in the current Marvel storyline, set between 5 & 6.



  Thanks for the word. I may have to look those up.


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## Davies

Aeson said:


> Dueling Vader with what?



Teras kasi, I think. She didn't win but she didn't lose, either, though the storyline is still ongoing and things don't look like they're going to go well for her.


Rabulias said:


> Thanks for the word. I may have to look those up.



She shows up at the start of "War of the Bounty Hunters", back in May of last year.


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## Dioltach

I just watched the first episode. A slow start, but a nice setup. It's got the dirty, lived-in look that makes Star Wars feel so real. The characters come across as realistic too, right up to the officer who in today's world would be triggering those "what managers do v. what leaders do" lists that keep showing up on LinkedIn.


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## Dioltach

Finished the second and third episodes. It starts slowly, but by episode 3 it takes off. Excellent show so far. It takes its time to present the story and the characters. This might be even better than The Mandalorian.


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## MarkB

A good first three episodes. That corpo officer has definite Inspector Javert vibes - I can easily see him either trying to join the Imperial military or going on his own little crusade after his superior inevitably fires him.


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## Dioltach

I think it was a smart move to release the first three episodes together. Without ep. 3, people would complain that it's too slow and nothing is happening. But they know that pretty much everyone who cares enough to watch on the first day will watch all three of them, so they get to build their world first and still give the fans an excellent and very tense episode that will keep them coming back for more.


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## embee

Watching it now. 

It's dark, bleak, and cynical. And I'm here for all of it.


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## Rabulias

It's off to a good start, IMO. Looks like we will get his childhood backstory in flashbacks spread out through the series, rather than a linear telling.


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## MarkB

I do love the poor, earnest little red cube-droid (is his name just B?). He reminds me of B.O.B. from The Black Hole. Lying to people is so difficult he has to recharge afterwards? Just too cute.


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## wicked cool

Might be the best marvel Disney show so far after 3 episodes. Right up there with mandalorian. For me this has a very skirmish/spy game feel to it . Loving that they aren’t holding back the grit etc. I will be rewatching rogue 1 after


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## Enevhar Aldarion

Dioltach said:


> I think it was a smart move to release the first three episodes together. Without ep. 3, people would complain that it's too slow and nothing is happening. But they know that pretty much everyone who cares enough to watch on the first day will watch all three of them, so they get to build their world first and still give the fans an excellent and very tense episode that will keep them coming back for more.




I definitely agree. If only the 1st episode had come out today, I would not have been impressed and would have probably waited until there were another 4 or 5 episodes available before trying the show again. But with three episodes to start with, I enjoyed it enough to be mad at Lucasfilm for changing the ending of Rogue One. I want the version from the first trailers that showed Jyn and Cassian surviving, not the version where everyone dies. I still have not rewatched it because of that.


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## Benjamin Olson

Aeson said:


> I'm also the one person on Earth that likes Solo.



I never got the hate for Solo. It's just easy, breezy, unpretentious and fun sci-fi action.

I think it mainly just suffered from Star Wars burnout, with too many movies coming out in quick succession. Particularly amongst the people who feel obligated in some way to have hot takes on every Star Wars thing but who no longer actually enjoy the franchise (or at least don't enjoy it enough to be happy to go see something in a theater).


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## Mallus

I hope everything starring Cassian Andor opens with a cold-blooded murder. We’re two for two so far!


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## Wolfram stout

MarkB said:


> I do love the poor, earnest little red cube-droid (is his name just B?). He reminds me of B.O.B. from The Black Hole. Lying to people is so difficult he has to recharge afterwards? Just too cute.



B2-emo I believe. I think I got that from the subtitles.


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## Aeson

MarkB said:


> A good first three episodes. That corpo officer has definite Inspector Javert vibes - I can easily see him either trying to join the Imperial military or going on his own little crusade after his superior inevitably fires him.



I thought the same thing. This becomes an obsession for him. I'm afraid that Andor's friends will blame him instead of the officers for how things went down.


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## MarkB

What's really impressive in these first three episodes is that they've managed to very effectively convey the sense of Imperial oppression, without showing us even a single Imperial trooper, officer or vehicle.


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## Dioltach

MarkB said:


> I do love the poor, earnest little red cube-droid (is his name just B?). He reminds me of B.O.B. from The Black Hole. Lying to people is so difficult he has to recharge afterwards? Just too cute.



I wouldn't get too attached to it. Disney SW droids have a tendency to die.


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## Paul Farquhar

Dioltach said:


> I wouldn't get too attached to it. Disney SW droids have a tendency to die.



BB-8 didn't.

Unfortunately.


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## embee

MarkB said:


> What's really impressive in these first three episodes is that they've managed to very effectively convey the sense of Imperial oppression, without showing us even a single Imperial trooper, officer or vehicle.



I am quite pleased by the refreshing lack of troopers, Jedi, and lightsabers.


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## Celebrim

embee said:


> I am quite pleased by the refreshing lack of troopers, Jedi, and lightsabers.




And Tatooine.  If we see Tatooine again, I'll scream.  Supposed to be a nowhere world with just 40,000 official Imperial colonists, and yet of the 400,000 officially colonized worlds of the Empire we seem to go back again and again.  And if we aren't on Tatooine, it feels like we are always on some world that looks like Tatooine.

The galaxy is a big place.  It should feel big.


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## embee

The abandoned warehouse firefight scene is amazingly inventive. Anyone complaining about the "slowness" needs to watch episode 3.


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## wicked cool

Silly question-is Andor. the only 1 of his race in these episodes? Other than the flashbacks . 
When he looks down into the valley which looks like a temple was that location from lore?
The flashbacks reminded me of lord of the flies but like I said above any insights on what say the crew from the crashed ship was from etc


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## MarkB

wicked cool said:


> Silly question-is Andor. the only 1 of his race in these episodes? Other than the flashbacks .
> When he looks down into the valley which looks like a temple was that location from lore?
> The flashbacks reminded me of lord of the flies but like I said above any insights on what say the crew from the crashed ship was from etc



Pretty much all of those questions are still up in the air at this point.


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## FitzTheRuke

I've only watched Ep1 so far (lack of time) and it was excellent. Dark for Star Wars, which is nice to see, and yet very much Star Wars. For a prequel show that no one really asked for, this is much more the kind of Star Wars I'd like to see. Invent new characters, go to new locations. Good stuff.


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## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> I do love the poor, earnest little red cube-droid (is his name just B?). He reminds me of B.O.B. from The Black Hole. Lying to people is so difficult he has to recharge afterwards? Just too cute.





Wolfram stout said:


> B2-emo I believe. I think I got that from the subtitles.



Yup, B2EMO. No dash.


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## Dire Bare

Dioltach said:


> I wouldn't get too attached to it. Disney SW droids have a tendency to die.



Huh? BB-8, D-O, LO-LA59?

NED-B bites it in the Obi-Wan series (_big yellow humanoid droid_), but other than that . . . major character droids introduced tend to stick around.


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## shawnhcorey

Dire Bare said:


> Huh? BB-8, D-O, LO-LA59?
> 
> NED-B bites it in the Obi-Wan series (_big yellow humanoid droid_), but other than that . . . major character droids introduced tend to stick around.




Only those with speaking parts.


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## Dioltach

Dire Bare said:


> Huh? BB-8, D-O, LO-LA59?
> 
> NED-B bites it in the Obi-Wan series (_big yellow humanoid droid_), but other than that . . . major character droids introduced tend to stick around.



Besides NED-B in Obi-Wan (one of two significant characters to die, if I remember correctly - even the two Inquisitors who were stabbed in the gut got better), there's K-2SO in Rogue One and L3-37 in Solo.

ETA: there's also IG-11 in The Mandalorian.


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## Wolfram stout

Dire Bare said:


> Yup, B2EMO. No dash.
> View attachment 262065



NO DASH?  STAR WARS has ruined my childhood.


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## embee

Dire Bare said:


> Yup, B2EMO. No dash.
> View attachment 262065



B2EMO is okay. 

But I'll stick with BMO


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## embee

Dioltach said:


> Besides NED-B in Obi-Wan (one of two significant characters to die, if I remember correctly - even the two Inquisitors who were stabbed in the gut got better), there's K-2SO in Rogue One and L3-37 in Solo.
> 
> ETA: there's also IG-11 in The Mandalorian.



Andor, on the other hand, has actually shown human characters bleeding on-screen, a first for Star Wars if I'm not mistaken.


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## Dioltach

I suppose we should be glad it was Disney that bought Star Wars, and not Microsoft. Otherwise we'd be watching shows about CL-P:


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## Enevhar Aldarion

wicked cool said:


> Silly question-is Andor. the only 1 of his race in these episodes? Other than the flashbacks .
> When he looks down into the valley which looks like a temple was that location from lore?
> The flashbacks reminded me of lord of the flies but like I said above any insights on what say the crew from the crashed ship was from etc




You mean when he looked down the hill and at the huge strip-mining operation, where some accident caused the operation, and the planet, to be abandoned? I can't figure out if the kids were born on the planet right before the accident, and all their adult family and tribal members died in whatever happened, or it has been a couple of generations, though a longer time period would not explain why there are no older people present. As for being the only one, he is looking for his sister, so I am sure we will get more flashbacks of the Republic ship sending down troops to investigate and evacuating all the other kids from the planet?

The flashbacks are post-clone wars, but before the Republic becomes the Empire, which I figured out after looking up Cassian's age. And that is something I have to call BS on, though. In trying to figure out when the flashbacks are set, I find that Cassian Andor is only 26 years old in Rogue One, as he is listed as being born in 26 BBY, making him merely 21 during Andor, while being played by a 42-year old actor (37 in Rogue One). I will never be able to believe the character is that young and that hurts the immersion some. Hopefully what this article talks about how the series is changing the canon about Cassian and making the character older is true.









						‘Andor’: What Happened on Kenari and How Does It Change Star Wars Canon?
					

Everybody’s talking about Kenari!




					decider.com


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## Nikosandros

The first two epidodes were a bit of a slog, but the pace picked up in the third one (perhaps it is no coincidence that they released the first three together). Great atmosphere and visuals. Let's see where it goes.


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## LordEntrails

MarkB said:


> after his superior inevitably fires him.



Or he goes after his boss for dereliction of duty, as suggested by the sergeant... Possibilities!


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## Davies

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The flashbacks are post-clone wars, but before the Republic becomes the Empire, which I figured out after looking up Cassian's age. And that is something I have to call BS on, though. In trying to figure out when the flashbacks are set, I find that Cassian Andor is only 26 years old in Rogue One, as he is listed as being born in 26 BBY, making him merely 21 during Andor, while being played by a 42-year old actor (37 in Rogue One). I will never be able to believe the character is that young and that hurts the immersion some. Hopefully what this article talks about how the series is changing the canon about Cassian and making the character older is true.




I can buy him as a twenty-something in the present narrative, but not twenty-one.


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## DeviousQuail

As others have said, it is a slow burn for the first two episodes but worth it for what we get in the third. What I really liked is you could lose the Star Wars name and background info and still appreciate what we're getting. The characters, themes, visuals, etc are all working with maybe one Imperial symbol shown through three episodes. It's nice that it is Star Wars but if it can stand on it's own two feet without needing anything prior that is a strong indicator of a good story.


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## Zardnaar

I liked it and it's getting good reviews. Highest since Mandalorian. 

 End up liking Obi Wan a bit but the first two episodes were weaker than Andor. 

 Book of Boba Fett they dropped the ball on that one. 

 Disney has been nailing the droids though since Chopper in Rebels.


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## Zaukrie

Only watched one so far. I liked it, though I don't get why we get a foreign language and no subtitles.....I get they are trying to show is they are not part of the bigger empire in a way, but I never get movies and tv shows that do that when the characters understand the language.


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## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> Only watched one so far. I liked it, though I don't get why we get a foreign language and no subtitles.....I get they are trying to show is they are not part of the bigger empire in a way, but I never get movies and tv shows that do that when the characters understand the language.



I think the whole point is that it's basically a dead language.


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## Zaukrie

MarkB said:


> I think the whole point is that it's basically a dead language.



Sure, but they understand it....I get the goal, not sure I love the execution. My wife watched a movie the other day where the characters started speaking french, and no subtitles?


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## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> Sure, but they understand it....I get the goal, not sure I love the execution. My wife watched a movie the other day where the characters started speaking french, and no subtitles?



Usually it's a matter of how they choose to present the scene. If the protagonist is excluded from the conversation, then frequently so is the audience (and it's a little bonus for those who do speak the language).

Likewise, in this instance, the whole point is that nobody in the galaxy outside of those kids understand that language - and so, as outside observers, neither do we.

I don't think there's anything in those scenes where the general meaning can't be gathered from context.


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## RangerWickett

Zaukrie said:


> Sure, but they understand it....I get the goal, not sure I love the execution. My wife watched a movie the other day where the characters started speaking french, and no subtitles?



Was it Prey?

Sometimes it's a choice to show that your POV character doesn't understand, so you in the audience share their confusion. That's Prey.

In Andor, I think it's done to hammer home how isolated they were before the outsiders came a knocking. It lets you understand that Cassian has no home. And you don't need subtitles because, well, all those other characters are probably dead. Nothing specific they said matters, just the emotion behind it.


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## John R Davis

embee said:


> The abandoned warehouse firefight scene is amazingly inventive. Anyone complaining about the "slowness" needs to watch episode 3.



The one from the extended trailer? *OTT nonsense

I'm two episodes in and aside from the zealot corporate Sgt I'm not finding anyone interesting.

* Maybe in the context of ep3 it will be better.

EDIT. Now watched all of ep3. Last ten minutes are good though my whole empathy is with the Corporate guys. I would play a game where you are those.


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## Zaukrie

I'm not sure why y'all are explaining something I said I understood, that I disagree with art wise. I was merely pointing out it doesn't work for me art wise.

On another vein, Matt Colville is not a fan, apparently.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You mean when he looked down the hill and at the huge strip-mining operation, where some accident caused the operation, and the planet, to be abandoned? I can't figure out if the kids were born on the planet right before the accident, and all their adult family and tribal members died in whatever happened, or it has been a couple of generations, though a longer time period would not explain why there are no older people present. As for being the only one, he is looking for his sister, so I am sure we will get more flashbacks of the Republic ship sending down troops to investigate and evacuating all the other kids from the planet?
> 
> The flashbacks are post-clone wars, but before the Republic becomes the Empire, which I figured out after looking up Cassian's age. And that is something I have to call BS on, though. In trying to figure out when the flashbacks are set, I find that Cassian Andor is only 26 years old in Rogue One, as he is listed as being born in 26 BBY, making him merely 21 during Andor, while being played by a 42-year old actor (37 in Rogue One). I will never be able to believe the character is that young and that hurts the immersion some. Hopefully what this article talks about how the series is changing the canon about Cassian and making the character older is true.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ‘Andor’: What Happened on Kenari and How Does It Change Star Wars Canon?
> 
> 
> Everybody’s talking about Kenari!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> decider.com



I am reminded a bit of the Star Trek episode whose name I forgot about a civlization of children. There was a disease that killed off all the adults. 

Maybe the mining accident lead to something similar. The people from the crashed ship didn't look like they all died in the crash, the ones that made it outside were strangely discolored.
Quite possibly the toxins (if it's not actually some disease) are spread across the planet and basically undectable to human senses - so eventually everyone that is old enough to be affected by it runs into some spot where the toxin lingers or is blown to, and then you die. 

Even if the toxins didn't kill the children, it might have lingering effects - like Cassian growing old faster than normal...


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## MoonSong

Benjamin Olson said:


> I never got the hate for Solo. It's just easy, breezy, unpretentious and fun sci-fi action.
> 
> I think it mainly just suffered from Star Wars burnout, with too many movies coming out in quick succession. Particularly amongst the people who feel obligated in some way to have hot takes on every Star Wars thing but who no longer actually enjoy the franchise (or at least don't enjoy it enough to be happy to go see something in a theater).



The problem was EP 8. People were so angry at that one that they decided they wanted to somehow unwatch it and get their money back. So, boycotting Solo was the next best thing... Seriously, I wanted to watch it in theaters, but I just didn't have the time at the time. I didn't feel in a hurry because being SW I was sure it would last a couple months, but come week three and it was just gone....


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## RuinousPowers

Cassian is portrayed as unlikeable, which is foreshadowing to how he is unlikeable in Rogue One too.


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## Morrus

RuinousPowers said:


> Cassian is portrayed as unlikeable



Is he? I like him just fine.


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## RuinousPowers

Morrus said:


> Is he? I like him just fine.



I have to ask why. He's a jerk who owes everyone money, is viewed as unreliable by his "friends", and abuses relationships by constantly asking for favors. He implies blackmail and theft from the one person who seemed to be defending him. I hope you don't have a lot of Cassians in your life.


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## Morrus

RuinousPowers said:


> I have to ask why. He's a jerk who owes everyone money, is viewed as unreliable by his "friends", and abuses relationships by constantly asking for favors.



So was Han Solo. I like him too.


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## RuinousPowers

Morrus said:


> So was Han Solo. I like him too.



Solo left zero impressions on me, and I can't remember anything about it, but maybe you're right. But at least the next time we see Han he seemed to have learned friendship and loyalty, while our first introduction (re-introduction?) to Cassian isn't so charitable- he's literally the exact same person we are seeing now.


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## Morrus

RuinousPowers said:


> Solo left zero impressions on me, and I can't remember anything about it, but maybe you're right. But at least the next time we see Han he seemed to have learned friendship and loyalty, while our first introduction (re-introduction?) to Cassian isn't so charitable- he's literally the exact same person we are seeing now.



 I dunno what to tell you. You don't like him, I do.


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## RuinousPowers

Morrus said:


> I dunno what to tell you. You don't like him, I do.



I know you do. I asked why, and you compared him to Han. I know Han Solo, and Cassian Andor is no Han Solo. 
So, what about him do you like?


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## Morrus

RuinousPowers said:


> I know you do. I asked why, and you compared him to Han. I know Han Solo, and Cassian Andor is no Han Solo.
> So, what about him do you like?



That's not really how I like people. I don't use lists of traits. It's an instinctive thing. It happens naturally, and it's OK if it's different for different people.


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## MarkB

I like Cassian, but I do think he's dangerous to his friends. He pushes people to go beyond what's safe for them on his behalf, and hasn't shown much sign of being there for them in return.


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## Eltab

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I am reminded a bit of the Star Trek episode whose name I forgot about a civilization of children. There was a disease that killed off all the adults.



IIRC the Star Trek episode was called "Miri".
Or maybe that was the leader girl on the planet's name.
A disease kills adults and makes teen / adolescence last for decades ... then you mature into adulthood and it kills you too.


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## Nikosandros

MarkB said:


> I like Cassian, but I do think he's dangerous to his friends. He pushes people to go beyond what's safe for them on his behalf, and hasn't shown much sign of being there for them in return.



Yes, I very much like Cassian as a character and I want to follow his story. If he was a real person, I'm not so sure I'd want him as a friend.


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## John R Davis

Really struggling to " like" anybody.
Must have been filmed at same spot as ROP so the cockney peasents could chop n change between studios


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## RangerWickett

John R Davis said:


> The one from the extended trailer? *OTT nonsense
> 
> I'm two episodes in and aside from the zealot corporate Sgt I'm not finding anyone interesting.
> 
> * Maybe in the context of ep3 it will be better.
> 
> EDIT. Now watched all of ep3. Last ten minutes are good though my whole empathy is with the Corporate guys. I would play a game where you are those.



I don't think the show wants you to root for the fascism-adjacent corporate paramilitary 'police.' Certainly not with the leader of the op being pro-Imperial tyranny.

Cassian is presented as a victim of an exploitative power, who has to operate outside the borders of legality because the 'law' is unjust. The majority of people in his community agree. He's just one of the first to be actively rebelling rather than keeping his head down and hoping the villains find someone else to torment.

He is also, thankfully, a Star Wars protagonist with a motivation. We haven't had enough of those. Too many lead characters have been swept up in events (Jyn is forced to help the rebellion; Rey is just trying to survive; Mando is initially just a detached soldier of fortune), rather than driving the plot.


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## Morrus

What is unusual is that nobody on that planet has an American accent. Typically (with Obi Wan and a couple of others excepted) Star Wars gives good guys American accents and bad guys English accents. It’s refreshing!


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## John R Davis

Didn't the Republic kill his tribal chum and wreck the planet?
The corporates look poorly trained, not well disciplined and utterly out their depths, trying to maintain law and order in a place that seems impossible to do so.


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## Enevhar Aldarion

John R Davis said:


> Didn't the Republic kill his tribal chum and wreck the planet?




Yes, it was a Republic ship that crashed on Kenari. We don't know yet if it was pre-Clone Wars or during. If this new history for Cassian does not adjust his age, though, it would be post-Clone Wars, but pre-Empire declaration. The planet had also been abandoned for an unknown number of years because of a mining accident, which probably contaminated the air, but the edict to stay away from Kenari is an Imperial one, so the time line feels really jumbled for now.


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## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yes, it was a Republic ship that crashed on Kenari. We don't know yet if it was pre-Clone Wars or during. If this new history for Cassian does not adjust his age, though, it would be post-Clone Wars, but pre-Empire declaration.



Isn't that a pretty narrow timeframe? Seems like it was only hours, possibly days, between Anakin slaughtering the Separatist leaders and deactivating the droid armies, and Palpatine announcing the formation of the Galactic Empire.


Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The planet had also been abandoned for an unknown number of years because of a mining accident, which probably contaminated the air, but the edict to stay away from Kenari is an Imperial one, so the time line feels really jumbled for now.



I feel like what happened to Kenari is going to turn out to be a one-two punch. Whatever it was that caused the mining operations to shut down and left an entire community of kids orphaned has already happened as we join the flashbacks, but whatever happens that leads to Cassian trying to find his sister offworld is something that's going to happen in a future flashback - and I don't think it's going to leave anyone else on Kenari still standing.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> Isn't that a pretty narrow timeframe? Seems like it was only hours, possibly days, between Anakin slaughtering the Separatist leaders and deactivating the droid armies, and Palpatine announcing the formation of the Galactic Empire.




I was talking about the time between when little Anakin blew up the ships at the end of the first movie and when Palpatine went all Evil Emperor on everyone. Plus, the Clone Wars lasted 3 years.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I was talking about the time between when little Anakin blew up the ships at the end of the first movie and when Palpatine went all Evil Emperor on everyone. Plus, the Clone Wars lasted 3 years.



Thanks for the clarification. Generally, when someone talks about "post-war" they mean after the war, not during it.


----------



## Rabulias

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> If this new history for Cassian does not adjust his age, though, it would be post-Clone Wars, but pre-Empire declaration.



That would be a very small window of time, a day or two at most. They will have to adjust his age for all the details to fit. Taking the official canon that Andor is 26 in _Rogue One _we get this:


Andor AgeEventBBYN/A_The Phantom Menace_ - Palpatine becomes Chancellor320Andor born264Clone Wars begin226Andor "begins fighting"207Clone Wars end - Empire declared1921_Andor _season 1526_Rogue One_0

He would start his fight during the Clone Wars, so this fits, but the flashback sequences we see in _Andor _do not. The Separatist insignia on the crashed crew's uniforms and the references to a Republic ship indicate that flashback takes place during the Clone Wars, but it is hard to believe Kassa is 7 years old there. You could handwave it to be "alien physiology" physically maturing faster, but whatever.

Andor's age is not mentioned in _Rogue One, _that has come from secondary (albeit official) sources. If they adjust his age to be 30 in _Rogue One_ (making him born in 30BBY), then the timeline lines up better to what we see in _Andor_, IMO. He would be 11 at the end of the Clone Wars.

But "wait a minute," I hear you say. What about him having "been in this fight" since he was 6? On this adjusted timeline, that would be two years before the Clone Wars begin. Who was he fighting? I would say that in the lead-up to the Clone Wars, the Republic was not always a good place. Palpatine as Chancellor was working to secretly stir up trouble, and would turn a blind eye to atrocities on minor worlds that never became widely known. Most (all?) of the systems that would eventually join the Separatists would be part of the Republic at this point. I think we may see this in _Andor _-- showing that the mining disaster took place about 5 years prior, when Kassa was 6, and was the result of an unscrupulous/corrupt Republic system taking advantage of the Kenari world. It certainly looks like the equipment in the jungle has been left to the elements for a few years.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> Thanks for the clarification. Generally, when someone talks about "post-war" they mean after the war, not during it.




I guess I see it as two different wars. One ended at the end of the first movie, then 10 years pass, then the 2nd and 3rd movie cover 3 years and the real war, or second part of a war that had a quiet stage of 10 years.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Rabulias said:


> Andor's age is not mentioned in _Rogue One, _that has come from secondary (albeit official) sources. If they adjust his age to be 30 in _Rogue One_ (making him born in 30BBY), then the timeline lines up better to what we see in _Andor_, IMO. He would be 11 at the end of the Clone Wars.




They have retconned his planet of origin, so I would expect/hope the age thing will be dealt with too.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I guess I see it as two different wars. One ended at the end of the first movie, then 10 years pass, then the 2nd and 3rd movie cover 3 years and the real war, or second part of a war that had a quiet stage of 10 years.



The one in the first movie isn't the Clone Wars. You can tell by the lack of clones.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> The one in the first movie isn't the Clone Wars. You can tell by the lack of clones.




That is how much I care about the prequel trilogy. I think I have watched each movie all the way through once.   lol


----------



## Paul Farquhar

We weren't impressed by this, and consider it by far the weakest live action Star Wars TV series. We very nearly gave up on it before getting to episode 3 and something happened. Really, if nothing happens in your first two episodes, why make them episodes? Just have one longer episode.

Also agree with those who disliked the central character, a murderer and a jerk; and those who felt the "alien" language needed subtitles.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

The Kenari scenes appear to take place towards the end of the Clone War (BBY 20-19). The Republic has already become the Empire in all but name. Which is why Maarva thinks the Republic will send people to massacre the Kenari survivors.


----------



## pukunui

Finally got around to watching this. The sets and the multitude of accents really stood out for me.

I’m just a little confused about the timing of the flashbacks. The guys in the crashed ship on Kenari* have the Separatist symbol on their space suits, but Maarva and her husband refer to the ship as a Republic vessel, and then that guy on Ferrix who looks up Kenari on the holonet mentions an Imperial mining disaster.

It seems to me like the mining disaster occurred before the Empire came into being, and maybe it was a Republic ship that had been boarded by Separatist soldiers before it crashed?




*I keep hearing this as “Qunari” in my head.


----------



## Mallus

RuinousPowers said:


> I know you do. I asked why, and you compared him to Han. I know Han Solo, and Cassian Andor is no Han Solo.
> So, what about him do you like?



Cassian is interesting to watch. It’s what I look for in a film character.


----------



## DeviousQuail

pukunui said:


> *I keep hearing this as “Qunari” in my head.



You are not the only one.


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> Finally got around to watching this. The sets and the multitude of accents really stood out for me.
> 
> I’m just a little confused about the timing of the flashbacks. The guys in the crashed ship on Kenari* have the Separatist symbol on their space suits, but Maarva and her husband refer to the ship as a Republic vessel, and then that guy on Ferrix who looks up Kenari on the holonet mentions an Imperial mining disaster.
> 
> It seems to me like the mining disaster occurred before the Empire came into being, and maybe it was a Republic ship that had been boarded by Separatist soldiers before it crashed?



Yeah, seems like there's more to this than just that one incident. I think something occurred prior to the flashback scenes that put the kids in their predicament as it was then, but something else is going to occur in future flashbacks that results in Cassian looking for his sister offworld, and everyone believing Kenari to be uninhabited.

Which means we're probably going to see the birth of the Empire through the eyes of Cassian and his adoptive parents/abductors. Should be interesting to see how it compares to the perspective of The Bad Batch.


pukunui said:


> *I keep hearing this as “Qunari” in my head.



Right there with you.


----------



## Celebrim

Watched the first 3 episodes now.  It's not perfect.  The flashbacks to his childhood are a bit of a clunker.   Speaking as a GM, I feel this is a terrible background for a spy character.   Running my bounty hunter campaign, the biggest problems the PC's often face is that there are no good records on the person they are trying to find.   If you have the info you need to load up a bounty puck with the personal information and genetic code, you are already way ahead of the game.   Criminals that the Empire has records on because of a former arrest or something have a really hard time of it and would be very ill-suited to trying to penetrate the more civilized worlds and especially secure facilities.  If I was recruiting spies, I'd be looking for people that weren't in the records - zeroes off the grid that could become anyone.   Cassian with his background as a survivor of what looks like a bioweapon incident (all adults died?) on an abandoned world would be perfect for that, if in fact he hadn't been at least twice associated with major crimes against Imperial rule.  

But those are nitpicks.  

The summary of Andor so far is that this is by far the best written Disney Star Wars TV show, matching the quality of the best written Mandalorian episodes but so far without the wildly varying unevenness of the writing that plagues that franchise.  It's a whip smart show that really captures the lived-in universe feel that is the hallmark of Star Wars and which dumbs down nothing for the sake of its audience because it assumes its audience is not stupid.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Watched the first 3 episodes now.  It's not perfect.  The flashbacks to his childhood are a bit of a clunker.   Speaking as a GM, I feel this is a terrible background for a spy character.   Running my bounty hunter campaign, the biggest problems the PC's often face is that there are no good records on the person they are trying to find.   If you have the info you need to load up a bounty puck with the personal information and genetic code, you are already way ahead of the game.   Criminals that the Empire has records on because of a former arrest or something have a really hard time of it and would be very ill-suited to trying to penetrate the more civilized worlds and especially secure facilities.  If I was recruiting spies, I'd be looking for people that weren't in the records - zeroes off the grid that could become anyone.   Cassian with his background as a survivor of what looks like a bioweapon incident (all adults died?) on an abandoned world would be perfect for that, if in fact he hadn't been at least twice associated with major crimes against Imperial rule.



So, what, you're going to disavow your agents every time they narrowly avoid capture? Because there's no difference between that and what's happened to Cassian so far.

The magic homing trackers of The Mandalorian clearly either aren't around yet or aren't in the Empire's repertoire, otherwise they wouldn't  have had so much trouble finding people such as Obi-wan, or the crew of the Ghost.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> So, what, you're going to disavow your agents every time they narrowly avoid capture? Because there's no difference between that and what's happened to Cassian so far.




Cassian is not an agent yet.  He's a thief that is being recruited to be an agent.   And he's a thief whose identity is well known to the Empire.  It doesn't take a magic homing tracker like The Mandalorian used or implied as a way of reducing the shown complexity of bounty hunting.  It just needs a short-range life form scanner that is well within the sort of capabilities shown way back in the original movies.   The sort of technology that would make Cassian Andor's life difficult already exists today in primitive form.   Every time Cassian Andor has to pass customs or a security check point, he's a security risk to the Alliance.  He's not at all an ideal agent, and to the extent that he might have been he was compromised during the first episodes of the show.



> otherwise they wouldn't  have had so much trouble finding people such as Obi-wan, or the crew of the Ghost.




It can be assumed that the Legends Obi-Wan stayed in the desert, avoided leaving the planet, never passed through Imperial Customs, never was on a ship that was boarded, and never passed a security checkpoint he couldn't get buy just by waving his fingers and going, "You don't need to see my ID or take a genetic scan."


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Cassian is not an agent yet.  He's a thief that is being recruited to be an agent.   And he's a thief whose identity is well known to the Empire.



Actually, he's not at all known to the Empire as yet. He's known to one corporation with Imperial ties, for suspected crimes that have nothing to do with seditious activities. Nothing he's done so far puts him as even a blip on the Empire's radar.


Celebrim said:


> It doesn't take a magic homing tracker like The Mandalorian used or implied as a way of reducing the shown complexity of bounty hunting.  It just needs a short-range life form scanner that is well within the sort of capabilities shown way back in the 1970s.   The sort of technology that would make Cassian Andor's life difficult already exists today in primitive form.   Every time Cassian Andor has to pass customs or a security check point, he's a security risk to the Alliance.  He's not at all an ideal agent, and to the extent that he might have been he was compromised during the first episodes of the show.



Still no different than any other agent who gets scanned by such a device even once during their career and doesn't make a perfectly clean getaway. If such scanning devices exist, then once you're scanned and connected to criminal activity, any future scans would raise an alarm.

So, again, do you just disavow every agent who is in this position? Or do the rebels maybe have solutions to such problems, if those problems exist at all?


----------



## FitzTheRuke

Celebrim said:


> The sort of technology that would make Cassian Andor's life difficult already exists today in primitive form.




Today? This takes place "A Long Time Ago". Their technology is often shown to be _worse_ than ours, except when it comes to AIs and Warp Drives. I mean, their TVs are B&W and grainy. Their technological advancement was clearly built with different priorities. 

Or in other words, it doesn't matter what _we_ have when it comes to what _they_ have.


----------



## MarkB

DeviousQuail said:


> You are not the only one.



I'm just waiting for Princess Leia to meet him and say "aren't you a little short for a Qunari?"


----------



## pukunui

Cassian may have a criminal record, but as he points out to Rael, the Empire’s arrogance means he can just don one of their uniforms and waltz right in because it looks like he belongs there.


----------



## RuinousPowers

Mallus said:


> Cassian is interesting to watch. It’s what I look for in a film character.



So was the portrayal of Jeffery Dahmer, but I wouldn't say that I liked him.


----------



## RuinousPowers

MarkB said:


> So, what, you're going to disavow your agents every time they narrowly avoid capture? Because there's no difference between that and what's happened to Cassian so far.
> 
> The magic homing trackers of The Mandalorian clearly either aren't around yet or aren't in the Empire's repertoire, otherwise they wouldn't  have had so much trouble finding people such as Obi-wan, or the crew of the Ghost.



Yeah, those universe-wide DNA trackers really are far more advanced than anything else in the galaxy.


----------



## MarkB

RuinousPowers said:


> Yeah, those universe-wide DNA trackers really are far more advanced than anything else in the galaxy.



To be fair, there does seem to be a progression in-canon here. The tracking fobs and pucks in The Mandalorian are based on chain codes, and the Empire begins introducing chain code IDs shortly after coming to power - it's a plot point in The Bad Batch.

So, maybe the sort of tracking tech Celebrim's talking about is something the Empire is working on, but it's likely still in its infancy as of this storyline - we don't see Vader handing out fobs for Princess Leia's very public ID to the bounty hunters in The Empire Strikes Back, for instance.


----------



## Celebrim

RuinousPowers said:


> Yeah, those universe-wide DNA trackers really are far more advanced than anything else in the galaxy.




In my Rise of the Empire age D6 bounty hunter game, if you know the gene code of the target a puck can pick up and track target from a range of say 100 meters in good conditions, while typical ship's sensors capable of detecting life signs might have a range of up to a few kilometers if equipped with appropriate software.  As with all Star Wars sensors, they are subject to interference, jamming, and masking.   Dense life such as a forest or a large crowd can make resolving an individual signature difficult or nigh impossible, and simple precautions like 10 meters of rock or plasticrete can hide them entirely.  Jamming technology can also hide your signature from sensors, though it's often possible to tell that jamming technology is in use if your scan is focused enough just not what is being covered up.  

It's presumed that the Mandalorian dumbed down the complexities of using the tracking technology for the purposes of the show, skipping over the part where the Mandalorian used contacts and Guild assets to narrow down where to find the acquisition before using short-ranged sensors to pinpoint the target's location.   It's also possible that the "tracking fobs" in the show are tracking a hyperspace or subspace beacon somehow related to the target, if the target was previously in custody.  Reasonably small subspace beacons with ranges in lightyears exist.  The device the empire concealed aboard the Falcon was small enough to evade casual detection but as it issued a hyperspace signal did have a near galactic wide range.

Also in my Star Wars D6 game, chain codes are part of the Empire's attempt to catalogue and take a census on all sentient beings in the galaxy.  The Republic had very lax record keeping systems, usually leaving the registration of citizens up to individual worlds, many of which - especially in the outer rim - made little effort to document their citizens.  It's a trope of my game that outer rim citizens only show up in records if they own land.  Birth and death certificates are rare, but colonists typically do register claims on property for legal reasons so land records are often the best way to track where an acquisition might be.  Unfortunately, worlds without centralized tax authorities (until recently) often didn't maintain centralized databases, meaning that you often need to be on the right track to get access to the specific information.


----------



## RuinousPowers

MarkB said:


> To be fair, there does seem to be a progression in-canon here. The tracking fobs and pucks in The Mandalorian are based on chain codes, and the Empire begins introducing chain code IDs shortly after coming to power - it's a plot point in The Bad Batch.
> 
> So, maybe the sort of tracking tech Celebrim's talking about is something the Empire is working on, but it's likely still in its infancy as of this storyline - we don't see Vader handing out fobs for Princess Leia's very public ID to the bounty hunters in The Empire Strikes Back, for instance.



I dontcknow how it works, but it seems silly to try to hide out in these barbaric Outer Rim planets while holding on to your government issue ID that can be traced with pinpoint accuracy.


----------



## MarkB

RuinousPowers said:


> I dontcknow how it works, but it seems silly to try to hide out in these barbaric Outer Rim planets while holding on to your government issue ID that can be traced with pinpoint accuracy.



My assumption was that the ID required you to register your genetic sequence, and that "chain code" is Star Wars speak for a DNA sequence. So they're not tracking your ID, they're tracking you through the information you submitted to obtain your ID.


----------



## RuinousPowers

MarkB said:


> My assumption was that the ID required you to register your genetic sequence, and that "chain code" is Star Wars speak for a DNA sequence. So they're not tracking your ID, they're tracking you through the information you submitted to obtain your ID.



I'm not sure how my DNA on Tatooine gets picked up and broadcasted to a guy light-years away. I mean, I know it's all space magic at the end of the day, and it works better than watching Mando actually having to investigate, but it really changes what it takes to be a skilled bounty hunter.


----------



## Zaukrie

Why is every city in an advanced society a naughty word hole (other than where the two princesses grew up)?


----------



## Dioltach

Zaukrie said:


> Why is every city in an advanced society a naughty word hole (other than where the two princesses grew up)?



Only the cities where the interesting stories happen.


----------



## MarkB

Zaukrie said:


> Why is every city in an advanced society a naughty word hole (other than where the two princesses grew up)?



Because (A) the Republic was too big for its own good and was impossible to administer efficiently, thus leading to the conditions of inequality and unrest that led to the Separatists' secession, and (B) as a result of the events precipitated by A, it's just come out of a massive galaxy-spanning war.

Basically, despite its age, the Republic wasn't that advanced in the first place, and the Empire has no interest in addressing the economic inequities of the previous administration.


----------



## DeviousQuail

MarkB said:


> Because (A) the Republic was too big for its own good and was impossible to administer efficiently, thus leading to the conditions of inequality and unrest that led to the Separatists' secession, and (B) as a result of the events precipitated by A, it's just come out of a massive galaxy-spanning war.
> 
> Basically, despite its age, the Republic wasn't that advanced in the first place, and the Empire has no interest in addressing the economic inequities of the previous administration.



There are also plenty of "nice" places in Star Wars. Coruscant, Glavis (where the armorer was hiding in BoBF), the planets destroyed by star killer base weren't backwaters, the resort in Last Jedi, Mos Espa has a crime problem but is fine for a city in a desert, Kashyyyk when it's not a war zone, Alderaan, Naboo (human and gungan cities), and any number of planets from the animated shows.


----------



## wicked cool

What a great episode. Yes lite on action but truly felt the acting and effort put into backstory and set designs. This for me was better than even recent Star Wars novels


----------



## MarkB

Lots of new characters introduced, but Cassian ended up feeling a bit lost in the crowd in this one. Looking forward to seeing the next episode.


----------



## Celebrim

Zaukrie said:


> Why is every city in an advanced society a naughty word hole (other than where the two princesses grew up)?




Because the places you visit are mostly places where people are disgruntled and unhappy.  In Star Wars, that occurs in two locations - newly settled planets without the money and infrastructure to terraform and long settled planets where overcrowding has led to a large impoverished underclass without property.  The vast majority of the Republic/Empire lives in extreme comfort except when war or disaster happens, but people who live in extreme comfort are generally unwilling to risk the status quo.  Which is part of the reason the people who live in the Outer Rim are so unhappy, because they know how good it can be for the inner and mid rim planets that have resources and good government that ensures freedom and low levels of corruption, and they are like, "Why can't the Galactic government do more to transfer wealth to the colony worlds, or at the least deal with the corrupt regulations, corrupt business practices, corrupt governments, crime, slavery, and other problems that keep the pace of development in the rim slow?"  

Palpatine is initially reasonably well received by a lot of people because he promises to clean up the corruption, establish fair and uniform trade regulations, and end the lawlessness that besets the outer rim.  Trouble is, Palpatine had absolutely no intention of delivering on those promises.  The Moffs were even worse than the Senators, and unlike the Senators had no real limits on their power.  Instead of outlawing slavery as expected, and has the Republic officially had done, Palpatine signed deals with the major slave traders and started exporting whole populations for use as cheap laborers even in older more settled parts of the galaxy.  The irony is that if Palpatine hadn't been such a complete jerk, he probably could have hung on to power indefinitely.  He didn't even need to be perfect.  All he had to do was not be worse than the already existing terrible situation.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> The irony is that if Palpatine hadn't been such a complete jerk, he probably could have hung on to power indefinitely.  He didn't even need to be perfect.  All he had to do was not be worse than the already existing terrible situation.



Yeah, well, Sith - he didn't get into power just to be rich or secure, he did it so he could be evil on an industrial scale.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Lots of new characters introduced, but Cassian ended up feeling a bit lost in the crowd in this one. Looking forward to seeing the next episode.



Best place for him, he is the least interesting character in the whole show.


----------



## wicked cool

Strongly disagree as I find him to be 1 and f the more interesting characters
But hey I liked Dirty Harry , most Clint Eastwood western characters, most Charles Bronson characters, Han Solo, John berenthal, the boba fett character, Loki character, jack sparrow etc
And yes there are times I want that person to be near me in real life. For example brad Marchand is a hockey player but many don’t like him because he’s a jerk on the ice. Same with John McEnroe came of like a jerk. These people are interesting to me and it wouldn’t bother me if they sat at my dinner table
I’m confused on the timeline and why some are saying that the crashed ship people were dying from poison in the air. The scavengers that radio Andor didn’t seem concerned. 
The Death Star -the twins-kenobi-solo-Andor-the bothans. Now in kenobi/Andor the senate still  exists but it’s disbanded during Star Wars but mothma is already leading the rebellion? Luke is 18+ during new hope but under 10 during kenobi so is it a 10 year timeline


----------



## Paul Farquhar

wicked cool said:


> Strongly disagree as I find him to be 1 and f the more interesting characters
> But hey I liked Dirty Harry , most Clint Eastwood western characters, most Charles Bronson characters, Han Solo, John berenthal, the boba fett character, Loki character, jack sparrow etc



Sure, I liked those guys, because _they_ had charisma, unlike Andor, who is just has a sulk.


----------



## Nikosandros

Another slow episode, IMO. I'm liking the story, but - perhaps - 24 episodes in total is a bit much.


----------



## Celebrim

After watching episode 4, again, amazing show with whip smart dialogue and a commitment to showing and not telling.  I'm amazed the team at Disney that has been churning out such dreck managed to make a show that looks this good, is this well written, and is this ambitious.  I'm blown away.  It's too slow paced for the movie format, but it's movie quality in it's production, in it's sound design, in it's acting.  Just incredible show and blowing me away compared to anything Disney has released under the Star Wars logo (except for, perhaps unsurprisingly, "Rogue One").

I haven't heard anyone talk about this anywhere, but is anyone else loving the stress and tension in this show?  Like intellectually I know that Cassian and Mon Mothma are going to survive the show, but emotionally the whole time I'm watching I'm expecting sudden tragedy.   When you are watching The Mandalorian emotionally you know there is basically zero chance The Mandalorian is going to be placed in any real difficulty and that no matter what happens it is going to work out.   There is no tension because you have basically superheroes fighting mere mortals.   This is a show about a mere mortal.   The tension and the anxiety is pervasive in the show and you can't help but have your skin crawl watching the show.  Everyone in the show is feeling abject terror almost all the time, and if they ever aren't experiencing abject terror it's because they are clueless and about to get destroyed.  The tension is so bad that you even have sympathy for characters that you should have no sympathy for just because of the anxiety everyone is in.  The music.  The facial expressions.  It's so intense.  

Drop whatever you are doing as a nerd and watch this show.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> Sure, I liked those guys, because _they_ had charisma, unlike Andor, who is just has a sulk.




This is a bildungsroman.  Andor hasn't yet acquired his cool yet.   His mentor has that coolness and charisma.  Andor is learning.


----------



## Celebrim

Nikosandros said:


> Another slow episode, IMO. I'm liking the story, but - perhaps - 24 episodes in total is a bit much.




No.  24 episodes is just enough.

One of the things I disliked about The Mandalorian is that for being a show about being a bounty hunter, it stopped being a show about a bounty hunter around episode 3.  I would have liked a little slower pacing that allowed us to spend more time with Mando just being a bounty hunter before getting derailed on his quest.  It wasn't terrible that we skipped over that if the had no ideas for making a good show about bounty hunters, but as a guy actually running a Star Wars bounty hunter campaign I am positive there is plenty of room for a great show about bounty hunters that is still exciting despite having small stakes.

Star Wars is a setting that is interesting and available to tell stories in that aren't about The Chosen One and wizard-knight superheroes.  In fact, in some ways it's more interesting when we focus on the characters that aren't wizard-knight superheroes, because it's more human and less simple ego gratifying wish-fulfillment.  One of Star Wars strengths right from the start of the franchise is the feeling of being a lived in universe where things get dirty and things break and people have ordinary lives despite the extraordinary setting.


----------



## billd91

Four episodes in and I'm loving Andor. Hell, I really enjoyed it at the first episode. I *like* that we're taking the time to build and develop.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> This is a bildungsroman.  Andor hasn't yet acquired his cool yet.   His mentor has that coolness and charisma.  Andor is learning.



Han Solo was born cool. Andor gets vaporised by the Death Star long before he gets close.

Joking aside, it's down to the actors, and Diego Luna just aint entertaining to watch. Skarsgard and Shaw act him off the screen. The furniture puts in a more interesting performance.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> Joking aside, it's down to the actors, and Diego Luna just aint entertaining to watch. Skarsgard and Shaw act him off the screen. The furniture puts in a more interesting performance.




I find the character intense.   One of the "tells" not "show" moments happens in Episode 4, and it's earned, with one of the would be rebels conceding in an argument about whether to accept "Clem" onto the team something like, "He has brass.  You can see that, but..."   And yeah, I think Luna has been perfect and Cassian Andor as a character is one of the best editions to the universe we've had a long time.  We know he's going to end up being a smooth operator.  He's not oozing charisma right now because he's playing his cards close to his chest and he's new to the game.  I love that they show his intelligence by the fact he doesn't talk.  I'm sure we'll see him turn on the charm when the time is right.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> "He has brass. You can see that, but..."



 And I find that simply unbelievable that someone should think that. Because all I see is some sulky emo guy with no evidence of exceptional skills in any field.


----------



## pukunui

wicked cool said:


> I’m confused on the timeline and why some are saying that the crashed ship people were dying from poison in the air. The scavengers that radio Andor didn’t seem concerned.



There appeared to have been some poison in the air _in the ship_, which is why all the dead Separatists had yellowed skin and were wearing gas masks.

As Maarva and her husband enter the ship, B2EMO lets them know the air is fine to breathe, and Maarva comments that whatever it was has "burned off" and tells her husband to take his mask off.

It's possible that the poison got into the ship because they visited the mine where the disaster happened, but there certainly wasn't any poison in the planet's air, otherwise all the Kenari children would've died long ago.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> There appeared to have been some poison in the air _in the ship_, which is why all the dead Separatists had yellowed skin and were wearing gas masks.
> 
> As Maarva and her husband enter the ship, B2EMO lets them know the air is fine to breathe, and Maarva comments that whatever it was has "burned off" and tells her husband to take his mask off.
> 
> It's possible that the poison got into the ship because they visited the mine where the disaster happened, but there certainly wasn't any poison in the planet's air, otherwise all the Kenari children would've died long ago.



I was assuming the folk on the ship where just aliens who looked human apart from skin-colour. But that is a more sensible explanation. I found the storytelling somewhat incoherent in those flashback sections.


pukunui said:


> otherwise all the Kenari children would've died long ago.



Unless they had developed some kind of poison immunity, which will turn out to be a plot point later on.

Imperial: _"Gas them all!"_

Andor: _"Ah hah! I am immune to poison because of an incident retconned into my backstory."_


----------



## Older Beholder

I'm enjoying the series so far. Probably the best looking Star Wars series so far.

I just realised Tony Gilroy (who co-wrote Rogue one) is the brother of Dan Gilroy who wrote and directed Nightcrawler 
And both have writing credits on Andor.

I'm a big fan of Nightcrawler, so this has increased my interest in the series even more.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> I found the storytelling somewhat incoherent in those flashback sections.




The flashback sequences were the clunkiest part of the story so far.  If in fact his backstory proves to be unimportant to any further part of the story, then I'm going to strike those as a failure and a waste of time.  



> Unless they had developed some kind of poison immunity, which will turn out to be a plot point later on.




What was going on in the backstory sequence is really hard to work out.  Where the kids alive because the adults had given them some sort of antidote that was in limited supply, or where the kids alive because it wasn't a poisonous agent at all but a biological agent that like some diseases causes only weak symptoms in children but is lethal to adults?   There are a variety of possible inspirations in the Legends canon for the empire covering up planetary devastation with claims of a "mining accident".  

My best guess is that there was an Imperial bioweapons facility on the planet that suffered an accident.  (The Empire was big into bioweapons development late in the clone wars and in the early rise period before too many "accidents" of this kind persuaded them to give it up.)  The CIS agents were there to get a sample of bioweapon agent in order to develop a countermeasure in the event the Empire deployed it, but were attacked by the Republic/Empire (the phrase "Republic Cruiser" is very ambiguous since it can refer to a family of light warships or to a cruiser in service to the Republic) and exposed to the agent.  Working against this theory is the presence of the adults who kidnap/rescue Cassian, which suggests it was a chemical agent released on a global scale, which then leaves you to wonder how the kids survived.

My guess is that Cassian at some point is going to want to quit or will quit, but then will be told what really happened and this will convince him to keep fighting.   Or Cassian will have a mission that relates to Imperial WMD development that ties into what happened in his childhood.  I really hope it's not a throw away sequence.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Speaking of retconning, it looks like they took care of the age thing in episode 4. Cassian talks about being 16 and fighting in some war, while in the original canon, he was 6 when he became a child soldier. That puts Cassian a lot closer to Diego's actual age and now makes him about 30-31 for the start of the show, instead of 20-21, and 36 in Rogue One.


----------



## Rabulias

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Speaking of retconning, it looks like they took care of the age thing in episode 4. Cassian talks about being 16 and fighting in some war, while in the original canon, he was 6 when he became a child soldier. That puts Cassian a lot closer to Diego's actual age and now makes him about 30-31 for the start of the show, instead of 20-21, and 36 in Rogue One.



Possibly. It fits, but we saw fighting on Mimban in _Solo_, and that was about 10BBY, so fighting on Mimban continues or resumes some unknown amount of time after the Clone Wars end. In fact, it sounds suspiciously like they took his official age in _Rogue One _(26), and said "Hey, when did that fighting on Mimban in _Solo _take place? 10 years before _Rogue One_? Let's see, 26 minus 10 gives us... 16!"


----------



## pukunui

We could also just assume he was 6 when he and the other Kenari children were orphaned and so he considers _that _to be the starting point of his fight against the Empire.

That would also remove the unsavory “child soldier” element.


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> We could also just assume he was 6 when he and the other Kenari children were orphaned and so he considers _that _to be the starting point of his fight against the Empire.
> 
> That would also remove the unsavory “child soldier” element.



And I suspect we're not done with the flashback scenes - there just wasn't time for them this episode with all the introductions. We may yet see the seeds of his opposition to the Empire being sown shortly after his rescue/abduction.


----------



## wicked cool

Paul Farquhar said:


> I was assuming the folk on the ship where just aliens who looked human apart from skin-colour. But that is a more sensible explanation. I found the storytelling somewhat incoherent in those flashback sections.
> 
> Unless they had developed some kind of poison immunity, which will turn out to be a plot point later on.
> 
> Imperial: _"Gas them all!"_
> 
> Andor: _"Ah hah! I am immune to poison because of an incident retconned into my backstory."_



I thought they had green skin as well.


----------



## pukunui

Just catching up on ep 4.

The reference to the Rakatan Invasion is a deep lore cut.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> Just catching up on ep 4.
> 
> The reference to the Rakatan Invasion is a deep lore cut.



Knights of the Old Republic movie confirmed!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> Knights of the Old Republic movie confirmed!




Didn't Rebels already have some KotOR references?


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Didn't Rebels already have some KotOR references?



Yes, and Luke also has something that was officially Revan’s in his hut in TLJ. That said, I’m fairly certain this is the first time anyone has referred to the Rakatans outside of KotOR.


----------



## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> Yes, and Luke also has something that was officially Revan’s in his hut in TLJ. That said, I’m fairly certain this is the first time anyone has referred to the Rakatans outside of KotOR.




 I did hear that reference wasn't sure if I heard correctly. 
 Revan is canon again as well


----------



## Paul Farquhar

[Brian Blessed]*REVEN'S ALIVE!*[/Brian Blessed]


----------



## Dioltach

Watched ep. 4 just now. A good tension-builder after the previous episode's action.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Paul Farquhar said:


> And I find that simply unbelievable that someone should think that. Because all I see is some sulky emo guy with no evidence of exceptional skills in any field.




That means: 

He was most likely in a fight recently and didn't immediately seek treatment for a blaster wound.
He escaped that fight and got where they are without being pursued
When he recieves treatment without pain medication he barely responds and doesn't complain
He is together with a bunch of strangers that he has good reason to suspect are armed and he has no back-up
He joins them to commit a grossly criminal act against the galactic empire
Doesn't mean he's good at exactly what they need him to do, or will fit the team, doesn't mean he's secretly a spy that will betray them. But he definitely got brass, and very likely some skill.


----------



## Aeson

But what I do have are a very particular set of skills, skills I have acquired over a very long career.


----------



## RuinousPowers

The show is ok, so far. It hasn't hit the high points of The Mandalorian, but has been significantly better than BoBF. 

I'm worried we will be entering "hard men making hard decisions" territory, and I'm not crazy about having a Leia supported Rebellion that was cool with the kind of atrocities the Empire commits.


----------



## MarkB

RuinousPowers said:


> I'm worried we will be entering "hard men making hard decisions" territory, and I'm not crazy about having a Leia supported Rebellion that was cool with the kind of atrocities the Empire commits.



Well, we know from Rogue One that Cassian and many others did things for the sake of the rebellion that they were ashamed of and found it hard to live with.

But we also know that they had some standards and principles, given that Saw Gerrera's group were thrown out for stepping over that line.


----------



## Celebrim

RuinousPowers said:


> The show is ok, so far. It hasn't hit the high points of The Mandalorian, but has been significantly better than BoBF.




I think that is mostly fair in that I don't feel we have an episode as good as say the best 4 episodes of the Mandalorian.  Unfortunately, for me at least, the The Mandalorian wasn't defined by its best 4 episodes any more than the The Last Jedi was defined by its best 2 story beats.  The defining moments for me of The Mandalorian were the wretched quality of its worst episodes, such as the season 1 finale.  



> I'm worried we will be entering "hard men making hard decisions" territory, and I'm not crazy about having a Leia supported Rebellion that was cool with the kind of atrocities the Empire commits.




I think we are already "hard men making hard decisions" territory.  Andor is introduced to us in Rogue One as a guy who murders his informant in order to keep the Empire from knowing what the Rebels know.  But I don't think is anywhere near the level of atrocities the Empire commits nor is it an act in service to anything like the cause the Empire stands for.  So I don't agree with the moral equivalence.  

We are introduced to Andor in the show with him again committing a murder.  He didn't mean to kill the young officer who hits his head, but the older corrupt officer he has at his mercy and he shoots him.   So Andor is definitely not a clear cut good guy.  He's not a moral paragon.  He's a thief and a murderer, and the fact that the older corrupt officer is a bad guy doesn't change that.  But also consider, he has Syril Karn at his mercy and is even told by his superior to kill him, and instead he ties him up.   Andor isn't completely ruthless.  We're not given the impression he enjoys killing people or that he won't be merciful when he can.

So we have a situation where a guy like Syril Karn is a good guy working for the bad guys, and Cassian Andor is a bad guy working for the good guys.  We're definitely in complicated territory.


----------



## RuinousPowers

Celebrim said:


> I think we are already "hard men making hard decisions" territory.  Andor is introduced to us in Rogue One as a guy who murders his informant in order to keep the Empire from knowing what the Rebels know.  But I don't think is anywhere near the level of atrocities the Empire commits nor is it an act in service to anything like the cause the Empire stands for.  So I don't agree with the moral equivalence.



I'm just worried since the more they fill in the gaps between stories, the more they ruin what came before. For me anyway. Like, the end of Rogue One ruins the opening of A New Hope by completely changing the situation. Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.


----------



## Nikosandros

RuinousPowers said:


> Like, the end of Rogue One ruins the opening of A New Hope by completely changing the situation. Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.



As much as I liked Rogue One, I agree fully with this. I wish they handled the ending and lead-in to Ep IV in a different way.


----------



## Dioltach

RuinousPowers said:


> Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.



To quote Shaggy: "Say it wasn't you!"

"But they saw us fighting at Scariff!"
"Wasn't me."
"Know we have the transmission!"
"Wasn't me."
"Caught us fleeing the battle!"
"Wasn't me."
"This Rebellion is over!"

Etc.


----------



## Celebrim

RuinousPowers said:


> I'm just worried since the more they fill in the gaps between stories, the more they ruin what came before. For me anyway. Like, the end of Rogue One ruins the opening of A New Hope by completely changing the situation. Instead of Vader attacking a diplomatic ship because he believed the plans were on it, he instead was attacking a ship that was directly involved in a fleet battle against the Empire. It makes Leia's protestations and their dialog seem ridiculous.




I don't think it changes the situation at all.  Rogue One is very much the movie of the opening scrawl of the original Star Wars.  Rogue One gives meaning and depth to the introduction to Star Wars in a way nothing else I've seen or read about does.  

And frankly, Leia's protestations were always ridiculous and Vader always treated them as such.  He's having none of it.  He has solid evidence that the plans were abroad this ship.  When she tries to give him excuses about her diplomatic status he responds, "You are a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor.", treating her feeble protests for exactly what they are.  The dialogue makes perfect sense.  Leia doesn't even really expect Vader to listen, they are both just playing their roles.  Leia is never going to give anything to the Empire or concede anything.  To the extent she has a plan at this point it's to stay alive long enough to get rescued by Obi Wan or failing that hope for a public trial that can grow sympathy for the rebellion.

What it might do is change your own fan fiction, the backstory you had written for yourself of the scene.  But I don't think your fan fiction has stronger textual support than the backstory given in Rogue One.


----------



## billd91

Nikosandros said:


> As much as I liked Rogue One, I agree fully with this. I wish they handled the ending and lead-in to Ep IV in a different way.



I agree. I think they wanted to ramp up the excitement as Vader pursues the soldiers trying to hand off the data doohickey. But it could have been handled pretty easily by having the Tantive IV in high orbit itself, observing the battle, and getting the data transmission of the plans before jumping out of the system.


----------



## Celebrim

billd91 said:


> I agree. I think they wanted to ramp up the excitement as Vader pursues the soldiers trying to hand off the data doohickey. But it could have been handled pretty easily by having the Tantive IV in high orbit itself, observing the battle, and getting the data transmission of the plans before jumping out of the system.




I don't think that changes anything.  Tantive IV is still at the battle.  Vader still has his solid evidence of which ship got the data transmission.  The conversation between Leia and Vader still plays out the same were Leia is lying and probably doesn't even expect anyone to believe her lies, and Vader still treats her protests as feeble.

But I think Rogue One still patches more plot holes than it opens.  For example, Rogue One tells us that the plans involve so much data that they aren't easily transmitted by subspace or hyperspace relay.  You need special communication gear to transmit the plans in a timely fashion.  This means that Leia or anyone else can't just get the plans to the alliance by publically broadcasting them.  The physical copy of the plans is valuable, which is something that made sense back in the 1970's but which isn't obvious in today's era of fast internet.   But it isn't unreasonable that faster than light communication has limited bandwidth in a way that fiber optic cable isn't.   As a Star Wars D6 GM, things that make the universe work coherently are welcome, because Star Wars has never really been science fiction you can't really pay too much attention to realism when running it, but it is nice to have some gloss as it were.  

I really felt Rogue One explained Star Wars in a way that there was less fridge logic moments than before, so that you watch Rogue One and go "Oh, so that's why..."


----------



## RuinousPowers

Celebrim said:


> I don't think it changes the situation at all.  Rogue One is very much the movie of the opening scrawl of the original Star Wars.  Rogue One gives meaning and depth to the introduction to Star Wars in a way nothing else I've seen or read about does.
> 
> And frankly, Leia's protestations were always ridiculous and Vader always treated them as such.  He's having none of it.  He has solid evidence that the plans were abroad this ship.  When she tries to give him excuses about her diplomatic status he responds, "You are a member of the Rebel Alliance and a traitor.", treating her feeble protests for exactly what they are.  The dialogue makes perfect sense.  Leia doesn't even really expect Vader to listen, they are both just playing their roles.  Leia is never going to give anything to the Empire or concede anything.  To the extent she has a plan at this point it's to stay alive long enough to get rescued by Obi Wan or failing that hope for a public trial that can grow sympathy for the rebellion.
> 
> What it might do is change your own fan fiction, the backstory you had written for yourself of the scene.  But I don't think your fan fiction has stronger textual support than the backstory given in Rogue One.



There is a difference between attacking a ship you suspect has the secret plans and attacking a ship that was fleeing a battle. I feel it fundamentally changes the opening, from the Empire attacking a diplomatic vessel in open space, to the Empire attacking a hostile rebel vessel they pursued from a battle.  In one scenario Vader has accusations, in the second he has proof.


----------



## Celebrim

RuinousPowers said:


> There is a difference between attacking a ship you suspect has the secret plans and attacking a ship that was fleeing a battle. I feel it fundamentally changes the opening, from the Empire attacking a diplomatic vessel in open space, to the Empire attacking a hostile rebel vessel they pursued from a battle.  In one scenario Vader has accusations, in the second he has proof.




Vader acts like he has proof in the original conception, and we the audience know that he's right.  He's not frustrated because he has mistakenly attacked a diplomatic ship.  He's frustrated because he can't find the plans that he knows are here.  He never for a second acts like he's acting on a hunch and he's not conducting this operation like diplomatic niceties are in play, because they aren't.  If nothing else, the Tantive IV was firing on his Star Destroyer.  They weren't acting like, "Oh, we're going to be boarded and then we'll run a diplomatic bluff and pretend innocence." at any point.  So again, we seem to be fighting against your fan fiction here, and not what is shown on film in the original 1977 release.


----------



## MarkB

Or the Tantive IV may have the same ID-masking tech that the crew of the Ghost used all the time in Rebels, and they're genuinely trying to bluff it out as being an entirely different Corellian Corvette than the one that escaped Scarif, however transparent the attempt.


----------



## Davies

Celebrim said:


> So we have a situation where a guy like Syril Karn is a good guy working for the bad guys



I suspect that perception is going to change _quickly_ over the remaining eps.


----------



## Rabulias

RuinousPowers said:


> There is a difference between attacking a ship you suspect has the secret plans and attacking a ship that was fleeing a battle. I feel it fundamentally changes the opening, from the Empire attacking a diplomatic vessel in open space, to the Empire attacking a hostile rebel vessel they pursued from a battle.  In one scenario Vader has accusations, in the second he has proof.



I enjoyed _Rogue One _a lot. Was it necessary? No. Does it enrich and broaden the Star Wars saga? Yes.

Before _Rogue One_, Vader's interception of the _Tantive IV _was warranted by his statements "Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you." In fact, this is one of my few continuity complaints about _Rogue One_: nothing was beamed to the _Tantive IV. _As Vader well knows, the plans were _physically _handed off.


----------



## RuinousPowers

Rabulias said:


> I enjoyed _Rogue One _a lot. Was it necessary? No. Does it enrich and broaden the Star Wars saga? Yes.
> 
> Before _Rogue One_, Vader's interception of the _Tantive IV _was warranted by his statements "Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you." In fact, this is one of my few continuity complaints about _Rogue One_: nothing was beamed to the _Tantive IV. _As Vader well knows, the plans were _physically _handed off.



Reminds me of a clickbait FB post about how R1 finally answered the huge plot hole of the Extra Chair at the Table,

I just want what happened with Andor to be an exception. I wouldn't want Leia being cool with suicide bombers or the rebellion accepting mass civilian casualties as "the price of freedom". I want the good guys to be good guys.


----------



## MarkB

Rabulias said:


> I enjoyed _Rogue One _a lot. Was it necessary? No. Does it enrich and broaden the Star Wars saga? Yes.
> 
> Before _Rogue One_, Vader's interception of the _Tantive IV _was warranted by his statements "Several transmissions were beamed to this ship by rebel spies. I want to know what happened to the plans they sent you." In fact, this is one of my few continuity complaints about _Rogue One_: nothing was beamed to the _Tantive IV. _As Vader well knows, the plans were _physically _handed off.



Does he? Sure, people were running away from him down a corridor carrying something, but even if he noticed that he doesn't know it was the plans. There's no particular reason, from his perspective, that the smaller ship couldn't have picked up the same transmission its mothership did.


----------



## Celebrim

Davies said:


> I suspect that perception is going to change _quickly_ over the remaining eps.




It could.  I have no idea where they are going with this.  I really hope that they do.  Set up is easy.  Pay off is hard.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Or the Tantive IV may have the same ID-masking tech that the crew of the Ghost used all the time in Rebels, and they're genuinely trying to bluff it out as being an entirely different Corellian Corvette than the one that escaped Scarif, however transparent the attempt.




Yeah, this is pretty standard in my Star Wars D6 campaign.  The PC's own a ship called "The Dogfish" that they have illegal transponder masking and forging software on, so that they superficially can appear to be a different ship than what they actually are.  

In the Andor series, when Andor steals the used space craft from the dealer he works for, he pulls out the transponder so that it won't transmit a signal.  This is why his friend when he sees he's putting the transponder back in is so angry, and ultimately one of the reasons he is compromised.  If he had the illegal transponder forging equipment he wouldn't have stood out when flight operations ran the tapes of the inbound ships from the prior evening.

And my Star Wars D6 campaign is a bounty hunter campaign so this sort of process of finding someone (or not getting found themselves) is something they've been doing in game since the start of the campaign.


----------



## Rabulias

MarkB said:


> Does he? Sure, people were running away from him down a corridor carrying something, but even if he noticed that he doesn't know it was the plans. There's no particular reason, from his perspective, that the smaller ship couldn't have picked up the same transmission its mothership did.



Fair point, but he does know the last of those rebel troopers he was mowing down was saying "Here, here! Take it! Take it!" and handing something off to crewmen on the _Tantive IV_ as Vader approached (and death was imminent). Whatever was handed off must be very important, most likely the plans.


----------



## Zardnaar

Tantive IV also fired on Vader's ship. 

 IRL try firing on government forces and see what happens (cops, military). 

Fleeing is one thing but either way Vader was correct. Pre Rogue one he had them dead to rights. Even then Leia's protests were weak 

 Even if the Tantive IV could appear as a different ship it didn't matter. Once they boarded were they wearing rebel uniforms or was that the Alderaan one? From memory it was the same as the rebels on Yavin same movie.


----------



## Celebrim

RuinousPowers said:


> I just want what happened with Andor to be an exception. I wouldn't want Leia being cool with suicide bombers or the rebellion accepting mass civilian casualties as "the price of freedom". I want the good guys to be good guys.




The Rebel Alliance isn't cool with suicide bombers, civilian targets, or mass collateral damage.  That's why they've broke with other anti-Imperial groups like the Partisan Front and the Justice Action Network.


----------



## Stalker0

Overall, really enjoying this one. I do agree with the note that the two first episodes are a bit slow, I don't mind some build up but very little actually happens there. But once we get to episode 3 it gets solid.

I do enjoy the tone, love seeing Mon Mothma working in the shadows, the bad guys actually acting competently, that security lieutenant is actually kind of a baller.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Or the Tantive IV may have the same ID-masking tech that the crew of the Ghost used all the time in Rebels, and they're genuinely trying to bluff it out as being an entirely different Corellian Corvette than the one that escaped Scarif, however transparent the attempt.



If they had wanted to bluff it out, they wouldn't have been shooting back at a legitimate government vessel. They would have stood by and allowed themselves to be boarded.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Davies said:


> I suspect that perception is going to change _quickly_ over the remaining eps.



There are a number of ways Syril could go. Which is why his story is far more interesting than Andor's.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> The Rebel Alliance isn't cool with suicide bombers, civilian targets, or mass collateral damage.  That's why they've broke with other anti-Imperial groups like the Partisan Front and the Justice Action Network.



Don't forget the Judean Peoples' Front.


----------



## Mallus

Paul Farquhar said:


> Don't forget the Judean Peoples' Front.



Judeaooine People's Front.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> If they had wanted to bluff it out, they wouldn't have been shooting back at a legitimate government vessel. They would have stood by and allowed themselves to be boarded.




If you respond to a hail of "Turn off your engines and prepare to be boarded" by as desperate of a move as opening fire on a Star Destroyer with a corvette that has like 1/1000th of the tonnage of the attacking vessel, you pretty much know the gig is up and that pretending to be a consular ship on a diplomatic mission is an even more ridiculous move that is only likely to work if the villains are written by Disney.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> If you respond to a hail of "Turn off your engines and prepare to be boarded" by as desperate of a move as opening fire on a Star Destroyer with a corvette that has like 1/1000th of the tonnage of the attacking vessel, you pretty much know the gig is up and that pretending to be a consular ship on a diplomatic mission is an even more ridiculous move that is only likely to work if the villains are written by Disney.



Yeah, but you also know that shutting down your engines and getting boarded isn't a better fate. They were probably hoping to nail the SD's tractor beam emitter with a lucky shot and then outrun it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Mallus said:


> Judeaooine People's Front.



Not to be confused with The People's Front of Jedha.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Yeah, but you also know that shutting down your engines and getting boarded isn't a better fate. They were probably hoping to nail the SD's tractor beam emitter with a lucky shot and then outrun it.




I totally get what they are going for, I just don't think the 1977 Star Wars ever gave me the impression that the  whole deal about being a "consular ship" was a bluff anyone was going to believe under the circumstances or that Leia really was anything but a member of the rebel alliance and a traitor who had been caught in an act of treason.


----------



## Stalker0

MarkB said:


> Yeah, but you also know that shutting down your engines and getting boarded isn't a better fate. They were probably hoping to nail the SD's tractor beam emitter with a lucky shot and then outrun it.



Or do exactly what they ultimately did, get the plans off the ships before they get boarded.

Yeah I don't think anyone ever considered Leia's "diplomatic ship" an actual "attempt" at getting away, its just a throwaway line, she has to say something in defiance to the empire, and its better than "you'll never get away with this".


----------



## Eltab

Celebrim said:


> I totally get what they are going for, I just don't think the 1977 Star Wars ever gave me the impression that the  whole deal about being a "consular ship" was a bluff anyone was going to believe under the circumstances or that Leia really was anything but a member of the rebel alliance and a traitor who had been caught in an act of treason.



In 1977, I did get the impression that the big-engined speedster was a diplomatic vessel with special protections / privileges (maybe "personal" property that comes with the Senate seat), which Leia was trying to stretch the rules to get away with pulling a fast one.


----------



## billd91

Eltab said:


> In 1977, I did get the impression that the big-engined speedster was a diplomatic vessel with special protections / privileges (maybe "personal" property that comes with the Senate seat), which Leia was trying to stretch the rules to get away with pulling a fast one.



She'd hardly be the only person bending the privileges of diplomacy in the service of a higher moral calling. Just check out Raoul Wallenberg and Carl Lutz.


----------



## Older Beholder




----------



## Hussar

LIke the show, but, man... it is SLOOOOWWWW.  Actually, no, that's not fair.  I don't understand why the episodes are so short.  That's probably why I think it's so slow.  What's the point in 30 minute episodes?  Five minute intro (for a streaming show, so that gets skipped, thirty minutes of episode and then six or seven minutes of credits,(which, again, gets skipped).

In other words, we've had about 2 hours of run time so far.  This wasn't four episodes, this was barely two.  And it would have been a lot more fun to watch that way.  First two episodes, cool, slow burn, getting the pieces in the right place.  Next two episodes, lots of action, introduce the main plot.  Great.

As it is, I'm not bothering to watch any more episodes I think until at least four or five more have dropped.  It's just too choppy for me.  Good grief, I've watched sitcoms with more run time than this.

I mean, ok, we've got Les Miserables meets The Italian Job.  It's fun.  It's a good show, but, GET ON WITH IT.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Hussar said:


> I don't understand why the episodes are so short.



This. A slow pace is fine when your episodes are 90 minutes. Does Disney think we have the attention spans of goldfish?


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> This. A slow pace is fine when your episodes are 90 minutes. Does Disney think we have the attention spans of goldfish?



They think at least some of us are only here for the Star Wars, and fewer, longer episodes mean more fallow months and lapsed subscriptions.


----------



## trappedslider

Paul Farquhar said:


> This. A slow pace is fine when your episodes are 90 minutes. Does Disney think we have the attention spans of goldfish?


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Hussar said:


> I mean, ok, we've got Les Miserables meets The Italian Job.  It's fun.  It's a good show, but, GET ON WITH IT.



Les Miserables. That was exactly what I was thinking about. Even though I only saw the first half of the movie musical and otherwise only have the cliff notes from _For the Uniform'_s conflict between Sisko and Eddington (DS9).
I mean, Andor did certainly do more than steal bread, but Corporate Security Officer Javert certainly found his Jean Valjean.

Edit: Not convinced with THe Italian Job. It's a heist, but not as well fitting as Les Miserables.


----------



## wicked cool

Another good episode

The figures on the out of work officers desk famous bounty hunters from empire strikes back?


----------



## Hussar

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Les Miserables. That was exactly what I was thinking about. Even though I only saw the first half of the movie musical and otherwise only have the cliff notes from _For the Uniform'_s conflict between Sisko and Eddington (DS9).
> I mean, Andor did certainly do more than steal bread, but Corporate Security Officer Javert certainly found his Jean Valjean.
> 
> Edit: Not convinced with THe Italian Job. It's a heist, but not as well fitting as Les Miserables.



To early to tell yet, but, it seems to be headed in that sort of direction.  It's a pretty broad genre, so, pick your poison.


----------



## MarkB

It is a very heist-movie set-up. Large motley crew, very specific plan that we're told in advance, extremely tight timing, plenty to go wrong.

But also a couple of the crew have unspecified roles, which means that the plan is not actually the plan, and when it inevitably goes wrong, it may actually be going right.


----------



## Celebrim

Hussar said:


> LIke the show, but, man... it is SLOOOOWWWW.  Actually, no, that's not fair.  I don't understand why the episodes are so short.  That's probably why I think it's so slow.  What's the point in 30 minute episodes?




I didn't quite understand your point when the run time of the prior episodes was up to like 46 minutes, but yeah, this second act episode felt too short.  I know that sets up a long and complicated third act, but I would have liked more story advancing on the Mon Mothma front.  

I think Syril Karn is going to end up in the ISB.  I think after the heist, the female Lt. Supervisor is going to find out he's on Coruscant and interview him clandestinely, then offer him a job in her department working on the "Andor case".

Again, minor complaint that if you got line of sight on an Imperial installation like that, you'd been made in my D6 Star Wars game.  There would be scouts up there on speeders in 4-5 minutes conducting interviews and weapon checks.   Some of that added run time could have covered them moving a herd of sheep up there to cover their movements or otherwise doing things that made the Imps ignore what was on their sensors because they had nice alternative explanations.  We could have had a scene to cover this that wouldn't have cost much money and explained how they were getting away with it,


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Again, minor complaint that if you got line of sight on an Imperial installation like that, you'd been made in my D6 Star Wars game.  There would be scouts up there on speeders in 4-5 minutes conducting interviews and weapon checks.   Some of that added run time could have covered them moving a herd of sheep up there to cover their movements or otherwise doing things that made the Imps ignore what was on their sensors because they had nice alternative explanations.  We could have had a scene to cover this that wouldn't have cost much money and explained how they were getting away with it,



Just the line that they've been scouting the place for months should suffice. If they were going to get caught, they'd have been caught long ago.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

They are disguised as shepherds.

Sheperd spy.


----------



## RuinousPowers

The last episode might be one of my favorite Disney series episodes for dialog and overall feel.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Just the line that they've been scouting the place for months should suffice. If they were going to get caught, they'd have been caught long ago.




Like I said, as a guy who runs Star Wars D6, that all fell flat for me.   Star Wars sensors are very powerful, as the movies and other media have repeatedly shown.   A military complex like that is going to pretty much instantly spot anything in line of sight, and have a sensor network laid out around it to detect things that aren't in line of sight.   As soon as you get a life form or a power source in line of sight, in open country like that you are going to get scanned.  That the writers ignore that is one of the few examples we have of the writers dumbing things down for the audience.   There are plenty of ways to fool the sensors or the person using them, but it appears that the writers didn't want to go there.  

I would have liked 10-15 more minutes to show just that sort of thing, as well as the dinner party the prior scene with Mon Mothma promised and more time to develop her plot line and maybe make the relationship with her husband more complex (as he is mostly silent in all the scenes, the audience isn't seeing what he is thinking).

But overall, this show is wonderful.  It's smart.  It's grown up.  It's well made and well conceived.   It looks really good.  It's pretty much everything we haven't been seeing from Star Wars since Disney got a hold of the property, aside from Rogue One.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Like I said, as a guy who runs Star Wars D6, that all fell flat for me.   Star Wars sensors are very powerful, as the movies and other media have repeatedly shown.   A military complex like that is going to pretty much instantly spot anything in line of sight, and have a sensor network laid out around it to detect things that aren't in line of sight.   As soon as you get a life form or a power source in line of sight, in open country like that you are going to get scanned.  That the writers ignore that is one of the few examples we have of the writers dumbing things down for the audience.   There are plenty of ways to fool the sensors or the person using them, but it appears that the writers didn't want to go there.
> 
> I would have liked 10-15 more minutes to show just that sort of thing, as well as the dinner party the prior scene with Mon Mothma promised and more time to develop her plot line and maybe make the relationship with her husband more complex (as he is mostly silent in all the scenes, the audience isn't seeing what he is thinking).
> 
> But overall, this show is wonderful.  It's smart.  It's grown up.  It's well made and well conceived.   It looks really good.  It's pretty much everything we haven't been seeing from Star Wars since Disney got a hold of the property, aside from Rogue One.



I don't think it's that they didn't get spotted, it's that the Imperials didn't care. It's established that there are locals wandering the hills, and they're probably used to seeing civilians in the area. A close approach to the gates would warrant a challenge, but not just standing around on a nearby hill.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> I don't think it's that they didn't get spotted, it's that the Imperials didn't care. It's established that there are locals wandering the hills, and they're probably used to seeing civilians in the area. A close approach to the gates would warrant a challenge, but not just standing around on a nearby hill.




I think the real reason here is they don't expect the audience to think about this much and don't want to slow the episode down even more.  But if you had to, you could argue that at this point in the war the Empire is simply lax on security.  They don't think anyone can hurt them.   I don't think the Empire was ever as lax and unparanoid as your explanation, because the Imperial Army had just fought the clone wars within the lifetime and careers of most of the Imperial officers, but it is plausible I guess that they simply are as Andor says unable to imagine anyone getting to them.  

And sure, I'd buy the whole 'local shepherds' disguise thing more if they brought sheep with them and were really careful not to bring into line of sight anything with a power cell and like modern soldiers did there best to not be visible on a ridge line.  If my PC's scouted an Imperial facility with all their gear available for a sensor sweep, the security would be going, "Sir, I'm reading multiple concentrated power sources on the north ridge.  Could possibly be weapons." and there would be a recon team going out to the base perimeter to do an inspection.  

Basically, I don't want a situation where I feel the good guys are only winning because the bad guys are stupid.  They've done a good job making complex bad guys and avoiding the "Cobra Commander" after school cartoon villains we've been seeing from Disney so so much who are just completely incompetent at everything to the point of being comic relief.  And I'd like it to stay with the tone they are setting.


----------



## billd91

MarkB said:


> I don't think it's that they didn't get spotted, it's that the Imperials didn't care. It's established that there are locals wandering the hills, and they're probably used to seeing civilians in the area. A close approach to the gates would warrant a challenge, but not just standing around on a nearby hill.



I think it's also likely that there isn't a lot of significant opposition to the Empire yet. They're still in that mindset that they've beaten down the real opposition. Only a couple of officers at intelligence warm to the possibility that there's something out there, and they're only just starting to be so.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> I think the real reason here is they don't expect the audience to think about this much and don't want to slow the episode down even more.  But if you had to, you could argue that at this point in the war the Empire is simply lax on security.  They don't think anyone can hurt them.   I don't think the Empire was ever as lax and unparanoid as your explanation, because the Imperial Army had just fought the clone wars within the lifetime and careers of most of the Imperial officers, but it is plausible I guess that they simply are as Andor says unable to imagine anyone getting to them.
> 
> And sure, I'd buy the whole 'local shepherds' disguise thing more if they brought sheep with them and were really careful not to bring into line of sight anything with a power cell and like modern soldiers did there best to not be visible on a ridge line.  If my PC's scouted an Imperial facility with all their gear available for a sensor sweep, the security would be going, "Sir, I'm reading multiple concentrated power sources on the north ridge.  Could possibly be weapons." and there would be a recon team going out to the base perimeter to do an inspection.



Yeah, but we know that Star Wars tech doesn't work that way. You can walk right up to the back doors of the shield generator and nobody notices until you actually step into view. And nobody notices concealed weapons unless you actually step through a security scanner.


Celebrim said:


> Basically, I don't want a situation where I feel the good guys are only winning because the bad guys are stupid.  They've done a good job making complex bad guys and avoiding the "Cobra Commander" after school cartoon villains we've been seeing from Disney so so much who are just completely incompetent at everything to the point of being comic relief.  And I'd like it to stay with the tone they are setting.



You think they're going to win? I don't expect even half of them to make it out of there alive.


----------



## Stalker0

Celebrim said:


> Like I said, as a guy who runs Star Wars D6, that all fell flat for me.   Star Wars sensors are very powerful, as the movies and other media have repeatedly shown.   A military complex like that is going to pretty much instantly spot anything in line of sight, and have a sensor network laid out around it to detect things that aren't in line of sight.



However, the Star Wars movies have a very long history now of showing bad guy "incompetence". No matter how powerful the empire is supposed to be on paper, when its go time, they always have hilarious gaps in their security, troopers that can't shoot, etc etc. Whether that's the "will of the force" or "plot armor" or XYZ, take your pick...but that is certainly not new to the franchise.


----------



## Celebrim

Stalker0 said:


> However, the Star Wars movies have a very long history now of showing bad guy "incompetence". No matter how powerful the empire is supposed to be on paper, when its go time, they always have hilarious gaps in their security, troopers that can't shoot, etc etc. Whether that's the "will of the force" or "plot armor" or XYZ, take your pick...but that is certainly not new to the franchise.




Sure there are a few scenes of that, often involving Han or Luke, where the troopers suddenly lose the ability to conduct accurate fire even at close range - Han running into a room full of Storm Troopers (made worse in the Special edition when it goes from like 10 to like 100) or Luke swinging across the chasm in the Death Star after the blast door has been cranked part way open. 

But even so, there is a qualitative difference between the presentation of the Scout Troopers on Endor back handing Solo and engaging in a running battle with the heroes and the ones on the speeder bikes in the final episode of season 1 of the Mandalorian.  There is a qualitative difference between the presentation of Storm Troopers in the original movies, who aside from one or two moments do tend to win any battle that is remotely equal, and the Mandalorian having a mere Army Trooper talking openly about Storm Troopers being poor shots.  There is a huge qualitative difference between the presentation of Darth Vader, Moff Tarkin, and the rest of the Imperial Leadership, and the presentation of General Hux in The Last Jedi - who goes full Cobra Commander in the opening scene and is so bad at his job that they had to make an unplanned nearly 4th wall breaking plot point of it in the final movie.


----------



## Dioltach

Don't forget the Imperials are expecting as many as a hundred locals to show up at the temple for the Eye. A small group hanging round in the hills above it the day before isn't going to seem suspicious.


----------



## RuinousPowers

Celebrim said:


> Like I said, as a guy who runs Star Wars D6, that all fell flat for me.   Star Wars sensors are very powerful, as the movies and other media have repeatedly shown.   A military complex like that is going to pretty much instantly spot anything in line of sight, and have a sensor network laid out around it to detect things that aren't in line of sight.   As soon as you get a life form or a power source in line of sight, in open country like that you are going to get scanned.  That the writers ignore that is one of the few examples we have of the writers dumbing things down for the audience.   There are plenty of ways to fool the sensors or the person using them, but it appears that the writers didn't want to go there.
> 
> I would have liked 10-15 more minutes to show just that sort of thing, as well as the dinner party the prior scene with Mon Mothma promised and more time to develop her plot line and maybe make the relationship with her husband more complex (as he is mostly silent in all the scenes, the audience isn't seeing what he is thinking).
> 
> But overall, this show is wonderful.  It's smart.  It's grown up.  It's well made and well conceived.   It looks really good.  It's pretty much everything we haven't been seeing from Star Wars since Disney got a hold of the property, aside from Rogue One.



I guess we are supposed to write the lax security off to Imperial hubris?


----------



## Stalker0

Celebrim said:


> Sure there are a few scenes of that, often involving Han or Luke, where the troopers suddenly lose the ability to conduct accurate fire even at close range - Han running into a room full of Storm Troopers (made worse in the Special edition when it goes from like 10 to like 100) or Luke swinging across the chasm in the Death Star after the blast door has been cranked part way open.
> 
> But even so, there is a qualitative difference between the presentation of the Scout Troopers on Endor back handing Solo and engaging in a running battle with the heroes and the ones on the speeder bikes in the final episode of season 1 of the Mandalorian.  There is a qualitative difference between the presentation of Storm Troopers in the original movies, who aside from one or two moments do tend to win any battle that is remotely equal, and the Mandalorian having a mere Army Trooper talking openly about Storm Troopers being poor shots.  There is a huge qualitative difference between the presentation of Darth Vader, Moff Tarkin, and the rest of the Imperial Leadership, and the presentation of General Hux in The Last Jedi - who goes full Cobra Commander in the opening scene and is so bad at his job that they had to make an unplanned nearly 4th wall breaking plot point of it in the final movie.



You mean the troops on endor that got their butts handed to them by primitive tiny bear people? That have lasers, modern armor, and walkers?

With respect, this isn't a one off kind of thing, there is a repeated pattern of incompetency. Every storm trooper battle in the first 3 movies is a miss fest, heck in the first movie Luke literally stands there for about 5 seconds after obi-wan gets killed with blaster fire all around him, then stands there shooting for a few more seconds before running for cover...and isn't hit once.

The death star's big weakness is another example. 

There is a clear pattern here where the bad guys are simply incompetent when it matters.


Now I do agree with you that a big difference in the new movies is that the 1st order is "hilariously" incompetent, aka its actually played for laughs. The empire was far more serious, but just as incompetent.

As for Andor...this just seems like the classic "big empire that can't manage its own stuff" we have seen from the first 3 movies, nothing outrageous, nothing as laughable like in the last few movies.


----------



## damiller

And since the Empire are supposed to be Space Nazis, isn't incompetence supposed to BE the point. A large fat fascists system that only exists because average folks didn't just say "uh no thanks" out loud?


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Stalker0 said:


> However, the Star Wars movies have a very long history now of showing bad guy "incompetence". No matter how powerful the empire is supposed to be on paper, when its go time, they always have hilarious gaps in their security, troopers that can't shoot, etc etc. Whether that's the "will of the force" or "plot armor" or XYZ, take your pick...but that is certainly not new to the franchise.



It's the danger of trying to make a Star Wars show that is more realistic and grounded though. Tropes that an audience will accept in a fantasy suddenly become implausible.


----------



## Stalker0

Paul Farquhar said:


> Tropes that an audience will accept in a fantasy suddenly become implausible.



The idea that the rebels, who have scouted and planned for this for a while now, have figured out means to avoid the sensors, or are just using the cover of shepards gathering for the holy day (which has now been explained to us to be a big deal, and something that local people absolutely gather there for, aka its not really suspicious to see them there).... that seems pretty plausible to me, honestly way more plausible than a lot of star wars stories.

If its 100% military accurate, no...but is it in the realm of possibility for a slightly more grounded than normal space fantasy show...I think so.


----------



## Dioltach

Also, the Imperial soldiers are shown to be quite unmotivated: the junk lying around the temple, the corporal lounging on the dam while on duty, the comment that most of the garrison are there to see the spectacle of the Eye anyway. Could be that the lieutenant didn't have much trouble convincing them that a few shepherds in the hills aren't worth getting excited about at the best of times.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> It's the danger of trying to make a Star Wars show that is more realistic and grounded though. Tropes that an audience will accept in a fantasy suddenly become implausible.




Sure, but I'm probably going to be the nit pickiest critic you can possibly get in terms of grounded.  I'm literally asking, "Does this game in my Star Wars D6 game?"  It doesn't have to be realistic.  It just has to be plausible enough to be accepted within a game.   So for me, getting defeated by Ewoks is no proof of incompetency.  It's just proof that if you fight 100,000 angry intelligent chimpanzees in a game universe where the rules skew in favor of melee combat (see lightsabers as one of many examples), you are probably going to have problems.   It works in a game even better than it works on the screen owing to the limitations of the special effects in the 1980's because the Ewoks in the game universe really can move like chimpanzees with claws where as the Ewoks in the movie move like little people in costumes.   If you accept the most powerful warriors in the universe are swinging laser swords, you can accept that even an elite soldier is going to have problems when a half-dozen chimpanzees with sharp objects jump out of the trees like mythical drop bears and start pounding on him.   Many storm troopers died when there helmets were ripped off and their throats ripped out by Ewok teeth.  They just didn't show that to you in a family movie.

The biggest problems in those scenes are the biggest problems in the entire otherwise incredibly staged battle sequence - the 1980s special effects could not deal with a battle of the scale that was being shown.  They couldn't show an entire legion of storm troopers, much less the tens of thousands of Ewoks that had gathered to kill them.  They couldn't show a rebel fleet large enough to actually threaten 80 star destroyers.  It was considered phenomenal at the time that they had 80 moving objects on screen at the same time using practical effects only.  The reality is that both sides had literally hundreds of fighters in that battle.  The reality is that the Storm Troopers weren't incompetent, they were just outnumbered in difficult terrain that entirely favored the native population that was heavily adapted to it.  

And on top of that, I'm biased by my game world's expectations.  I'm running a game in the same era in which the PC's are also criminals and are going into a mission that will also bring them in contact with the Imperial military.  Plus, one of the tropes of my game is that despite the fact that many of canon special effects make the universe seem in many ways more primitive than modern reality, it's not actually.  The game universe is more real than the special effects.  Those computers aren't primitive.  Things you see on screen have capabilities exceeding what is available now in 2022.

And one of the things that is cool about 'Andor' is it is combining the aesthetics of the original trilogy with casually displaying that no really, this is a high tech world.  I loved every ones datapad in the ISB board room scene was basically a laptop.


----------



## Celebrim

Stalker0 said:


> There is a clear pattern here where the bad guys are simply incompetent when it matters.




The clear pattern is the bad guys are incompetent when facing against player characters/protagonists.   And I can work with that.  They are in fact highly competent when facing off against NPCs.  

The Storm Troopers absolutely overwhelm Rebel Navy Troopers in the opening scene.  It's not even close in terms of casualties, hit rates, etc.

The Massassi group in their X-Wings ("Gold Squadron" and "Red Squadron") are some of the most formidable fighter pilots in the Outer Rim, but when they attack the Death Star, the Tie Fighter pilots hold their own.  There is not in fact a lot of evidence that the kill ratios in those dogfights are much different than 1:1.  The Rebels are getting wiped out.

And Rogue One actually fixes the plot hole with the Death Star's vulnerability, which, let's face it isn't that vulnerable since it took Luke spending a force point to actually exploit it.  The Rogue One novelization actually goes into detail how Galen Erso hid the vulnerability from the Empire, and it's really dang clever and exploits realistic vulnerabilities that a centralized fascist bureaucracy would have.

Empire Strikes Back has the Empire winning the entire movie, leading to the famous, "Did the bad guys just win?" moment as the lights go on that was so dramatic and revolutionary at the time.  

Return of the Jedi repeatedly shows the battle at Endor hanging in the balance with heavy losses on both sides.   Any incompetency can be explained simply, as Luke noted, "Your over confidence is your weakness."  The Empire was being hampered at Endor by the insanity of a megalomaniac sociopath.  

In short, the incompetency of the Empire not nearly as bad as the memes make it out to be.   The incompetency tends to be a fridge logic moment, and isn't the experience most first time watchers of the film have or had.  In fact, the first time emotional response tends to be just how frightening and intimidating the Empire seems to be, especially compared to how villains had been portrayed before.



> Now I do agree with you that a big difference in the new movies is that the 1st order is "hilariously" incompetent, aka its actually played for laughs. The empire was far more serious, but just as incompetent.




This is enough of a difference for me.  I can make a serious game out of the later, but I can't make a serious game out of the first.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Sure, but I'm probably going to be the nit pickiest critic you can possibly get in terms of grounded.  I'm literally asking, "Does this game in my Star Wars D6 game?"  It doesn't have to be realistic.  It just has to be plausible enough to be accepted within a game.   So for me, getting defeated by Ewoks is no proof of incompetency.  It's just proof that if you fight 100,000 angry intelligent chimpanzees in a game universe where the rules skew in favor of melee combat (see lightsabers as one of many examples), you are probably going to have problems.   It works in a game even better than it works on the screen owing to the limitations of the special effects in the 1980's because the Ewoks in the game universe really can move like chimpanzees with claws where as the Ewoks in the movie move like little people in costumes.   If you accept the most powerful warriors in the universe are swinging laser swords, you can accept that even an elite soldier is going to have problems when a half-dozen chimpanzees with sharp objects jump out of the trees like mythical drop bears and start pounding on him.   Many storm troopers died when there helmets were ripped off and their throats ripped out by Ewok teeth.  They just didn't show that to you in a family movie.
> 
> The biggest problems in those scenes are the biggest problems in the entire otherwise incredibly staged battle sequence - the 1980s special effects could not deal with a battle of the scale that was being shown.  They couldn't show an entire legion of storm troopers, much less the tens of thousands of Ewoks that had gathered to kill them.  They couldn't show a rebel fleet large enough to actually threaten 80 star destroyers.  It was considered phenomenal at the time that they had 80 moving objects on screen at the same time using practical effects only.  The reality is that both sides had literally hundreds of fighters in that battle.  The reality is that the Storm Troopers weren't incompetent, they were just outnumbered in difficult terrain that entirely favored the native population that was heavily adapted to it.
> 
> And on top of that, I'm biased by my game world's expectations.  I'm running a game in the same era in which the PC's are also criminals and are going into a mission that will also bring them in contact with the Imperial military.  Plus, one of the tropes of my game is that despite the fact that many of canon special effects make the universe seem in many ways more primitive than modern reality, it's not actually.  The game universe is more real than the special effects.  Those computers aren't primitive.  Things you see on screen have capabilities exceeding what is available now in 2022.
> 
> And one of the things that is cool about 'Andor' is it is combining the aesthetics of the original trilogy with casually displaying that no really, this is a high tech world.  I loved every ones datapad in the ISB board room scene was basically a laptop.



There is no 'reality'. This telling of fictitious events is all we get.

And Star Wars has always been internally contradictory in its technological levels. They have droids and spaceflight and shields and lasers, but in every other respect their tech level isn't even 1970s-equivalent - it's 1940s-equivalent, because Star Wars is basically meant to be World War II IN SPACE.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> There is no 'reality'. This telling of fictitious events is all we get.




Speaking as a gamer, that's simply not true.  The game space is a shared reality.  We tell fictitious events in it, but there is a noticeable difference between fiction that is gameable or generated within a game and fiction that isn't.  



> And Star Wars has always been internally contradictory in its technological levels. They have droids and spaceflight and shields and lasers, but in every other respect their tech level isn't even 1970s-equivalent - it's 1940s-equivalent, because Star Wars is basically meant to be World War II IN SPACE.




I agree that Star Wars has internal contradictions, especially when it comes to scale and especially those related to visually perceived speed on screen.   And indeed, this is very much tied to the presentation of Star Wars as "World War II in Space", in as much as the movement of snub fighters on the screen mimics that of WWII fighters shooting tracer bullets at each other.   But this I I think a more general problem having to do with people being simply unable to imagine the scale of space and the scale of space making for undramatic combat when it is presented on the screen.  There are similar problems with how close together modern Star Trek combat is presented.  In many ways, TOS is more realistic because the ships are represented as being thousands of kilometers apart and never on the screen at the same time, even though in reality the main reason for that was the limitations of the available special effects.  It just makes for more intuitive space combat if we see a ship moving for several seconds over the hull of a kilometer long ship, instead of the sort of real interception and passing rates we'd expect of space combat when closing speeds might be in dozens or hundreds or even thousands of kilometers per second.   Even sci-fi with a commitment to hard sci-fi like 'The Expanse' has trouble presenting realistic space combat at realistic time frames and realistic distances, and occasionally takes short cuts for dramatic purposes.  

So yes, there is a, "Don't think to hard about the space combat." element to Star Wars that is less of a problem in Babylon 5 or the Expanse where in Star Wars ultimately it is impossible to make the scales work if you try to define how fast things are moving or should be moving.  Star Wars simultaneously depicts sub-light travel at a non-trivial percentage of light speed and at 200 mph at the same time depending on the frame of reference. 

But that's not the same as being 1940's equivalent tech or even 1970's tech.  That's a wholly different problem you'll probably run into with most Sci Fi games set in space.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Speaking as a gamer, that's simply not true.  The game space is a shared reality.  We tell fictitious events in it, but there is a noticeable difference between fiction that is gameable or generated within a game and fiction that isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree that Star Wars has internal contradictions, especially when it comes to scale and especially those related to visually perceived speed on screen.   And indeed, this is very much tied to the presentation of Star Wars as "World War II in Space", in as much as the movement of snub fighters on the screen mimics that of WWII fighters shooting tracer bullets at each other.   But this I I think a more general problem having to do with people being simply unable to imagine the scale of space and the scale of space making for undramatic combat when it is presented on the screen.  There are similar problems with how close together modern Star Trek combat is presented.  In many ways, TOS is more realistic because the ships are represented as being thousands of kilometers apart and never on the screen at the same time, even though in reality the main reason for that was the limitations of the available special effects.  It just makes for more intuitive space combat if we see a ship moving for several seconds over the hull of a kilometer long ship, instead of the sort of real interception and passing rates we'd expect of space combat when closing speeds might be in dozens or hundreds or even thousands of kilometers per second.   Even sci-fi with a commitment to hard sci-fi like 'The Expanse' has trouble presenting realistic space combat at realistic time frames and realistic distances, and occasionally takes short cuts for dramatic purposes.
> 
> So yes, there is a, "Don't think to hard about the space combat." element to Star Wars that is less of a problem in Babylon 5 or the Expanse where in Star Wars ultimately it is impossible to make the scales work if you try to define how fast things are moving or should be moving.  Star Wars simultaneously depicts sub-light travel at a non-trivial percentage of light speed and at 200 mph at the same time depending on the frame of reference.
> 
> But that's not the same as being 1940's equivalent tech or even 1970's tech.  That's a wholly different problem you'll probably run into with most Sci Fi games set in space.



Nope, it's not just in space, it's every aspect, from the individual-scale gunplay to the land based battles to the clunky design of every gadget. Heck, the Gungans-versus-droids battle in Episode I is WW2 tanks which can hover vs catapults throwing glowy balls, all at point-blank range.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Nope, it's not just in space, it's every aspect, from the individual-scale gunplay to the land based battles to the clunky design of every gadget. Heck, the Gungans-versus-droids battle in Episode I is WW2 tanks which can hover vs catapults throwing glowy balls, all at point-blank range.




I disagree that this is the problem you claim, but even more so that even if you were to make this argument convincing that this was any proof at all of Star Wars tech being analogous to 1940's tech - which is your original claim.

The clunky design is not an attempt to mimic 1940's tech, but is the result of prioritizing artistic appearance over form.  AT-AT's are definitely not WW2 tanks, clunky mechas though they may be.   But like all mecha, they definitely look cool.   The Millennium Falcon may have a terrible shape for a freighter, but it definitely looks cool on screen.   Weapon systems in the Prequels are all over the place, drawing from basically every period of human history and adding fantasy elements in many cases.  The visual precedence for the battle on Naboo is probably Spartacus and not Battle of the Bulge.  Indeed, the whole movie 'The Phantom Menace' is heavily inspired by "Swords and Sandals" especially Ben Hur, Cleopatra, and Spartacus.   Again, Star Wars the movies are trying to make the visual presentation unique and compelling.  It has nothing to do with the tech level being 1940s and especially in "every other respect".

And heck, you are going to have this problem even in movie presentations of 1940's tech.  "Fury" and it's presentation of WWII tank combat is not realistic, but the ways in which it is not realistic are designed to make the presentation more visually appealing and relatable to the non-technical audience.   The same is true in many ways to (don't laugh) "Girls und Panzers", which while it massively more realistic than "Fury" in some aspects - consider the detail it goes into explaining to the audience how to aim a tank gun and engage an enemy tank at realistic ranges - but also has those tanks move around with the agility and speed of rally cars to make for more visually impressive combat.


----------



## Stalker0

Celebrim said:


> The Rogue One novelization actually goes into detail how Galen Erso hid the vulnerability from the Empire, and it's really dang clever and exploits realistic vulnerabilities that a centralized fascist bureaucracy would have.



So apparently we just need to wait for the Andor novelization which will in detail explain how the rebels avoided those sensors for you


----------



## Celebrim

Stalker0 said:


> So apparently we just need to wait for the Andor novelization which will in detail explain how the rebels avoided those sensors for you




Yeah. 

Seriously, I got a copy of the Star Wars novelization when I was 7, and it contains all the deleted scenes since it was based on the original screenplay.  So it was kind of like getting a preview of the 'Extended Edition', only better because it also contains the Toshi Station scene with the critical early dialogue with Biggs Darklighter when he tells Luke that he's going to join the Rebellion.  The actual 1977 released version has very choppy story editing and is a little bit incoherent, so much so that my wife says she never really understood the story of the movie until she saw the Extended Edition in the theaters.  But the novelization features some awesome character building moments.

So whenever I watch a good Star Wars movie, I always like to get the novelization to get the details that didn't end up in the movie for pacing reasons.


----------



## pukunui

Celebrim said:


> So whenever I watch a good Star Wars movie, I always like to get the novelization to get the details that didn't end up in the movie for pacing reasons.



Meanwhile, RA Salvatore’s novelisation of the _worst _Star Wars movie (_Attack of the Clones_) doubles down on the stupid by including all the deleted scenes, several of which are redundant.


(I do really like the novelisation of _Revenge of the Sith_, though. I feel it goes a long way towards explaining Anakin’s behavior – e.g. the reason he throws a tantrum about being put on the council without being made a master is because only masters have access to the restricted section in the temple library, and he’s been convinced that the secrets he needs to save Padme’s life are hidden away in there.)


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> Meanwhile, RA Salvatore’s novelisation of the _worst _Star Wars movie (_Attack of the Clones_) doubles down on the stupid by including all the deleted scenes, several of which are redundant.




Well, there are two reasons I never read the novelization of Attack of the Clones.


----------



## Zardnaar

Celebrim said:


> Well, there are two reasons I never read the novelization of Attack of the Clones.




 Prequel novels don't have the same reputation as the movies. Apparently RotS is good and TPM is decent. Not sure on the AotC novels.


----------



## pukunui

Celebrim said:


> Well, there are two reasons I never read the novelization of Attack of the Clones.



Having enjoyed the RotS novelisation, I was hoping the AotC novelisation would have the same effect. Alas, it only further cemented that story in my mind as the worst of the lot. Bob should really stick to writing about Drizzt.


----------



## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> Having enjoyed the RotS novelisation, I was hoping the AotC novelisation would have the same effect. Alas, it only further cemented that story in my mind as the worst of the lot. Bob should really stick to writing about Drizzt.




 He hasn't written a great Drizzt book since 1999 the last half decent one was 2006 iirc.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

And he has written some decent Star Wars novels. He just can't do it consistently, or with poor quality source material.

I don't know that they do novelisations for TV series. The closest I know of is the graphic novel adaptation of The Mandalorian.


----------



## Dioltach

Paul Farquhar said:


> I don't know that they do novelisations for TV series. The closest I know of is the graphic novel adaptation of The Mandalorian.



Speaking of The Mandalorian, yesterday I was walking in my town at about 8am, and saw someone dressed in Mandalorian armour putting out the trash.


----------



## Zardnaar

Paul Farquhar said:


> And he has written some decent Star Wars novels. He just can't do it consistently, or with poor quality source material.
> 
> I don't know that they do novelisations for TV series. The closest I know of is the graphic novel adaptation of The Mandalorian.




 His Star Wars novels were fairly so so. There's a lot worse I wouldn't call them good though.

 There's a handful of fairly consistent SW authors they're a rare breed.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Zardnaar said:


> His Star Wars novels were fairly so so. There's a lot worse I wouldn't call them good though.
> 
> There's a handful of fairly consistent SW authors they're a rare breed.



I agree. No bad, but also not good. IMO the best Star Wars novels were written by Zahn, Daley and Stackpole.


----------



## Zardnaar

Paul Farquhar said:


> I agree. No bad, but also not good. IMO the best Star Wars novels were written by Zahn, Daley and Stackpole.




 Add Allston to that list and yeah I would agree. 

 AC Crispin Solo trilogy was also a standout imho.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Zardnaar said:


> Add Allston to that list and yeah I would agree.
> 
> AC Crispin Solo trilogy was also a standout imho.



Oh yes, I liked the Allston novels. I felt the Crispin Solo trilogy suffered hugely in comparison to the Daley Solo trilogy through. Also worthy of mention is the Drew Karpyshyn Bane series.


----------



## Zardnaar

Paul Farquhar said:


> Oh yes, I liked the Allston novels. I felt the Crispin Solo trilogy suffered hugely in comparison to the Daley Solo trilogy through. Also worthy of mention is the Drew Karpyshyn Bane series.




 True Drew is a good auther. I think he worked on the MN ass Effect story. 

  Allston. Wraith squadron books were better than Rogue Squadron imho. 

  His books were also a stand out in the Vong series.

 I've heard good things about the new Lost Stars books and the Zahn books.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Zardnaar said:


> True Drew is a good auther. I think he worked on the MN ass Effect story.



Yeah, he worked for Bioware, contributing to Mass Effect, KOTOR and Baldur's Gate 2 (I think).


Zardnaar said:


> Allston. Wraith squadron books were better than Rogue Squadron imho.



I liked both series, but Rogue Squadron edges it for me.


Zardnaar said:


> His books were also a stand out in the Vong series.



I hate all things Vong.


Zardnaar said:


> I've heard good things about the new Lost Stars books and the Zahn books.



The Zahn books are well worth reading if you haven't done so.


----------



## Zardnaar

Paul Farquhar said:


> Yeah, he worked for Bioware, contributing to Mass Effect, KOTOR and Baldur's Gate 2 (I think).
> 
> I liked both series, but Rogue Squadron edges it for me.
> 
> I hate all things Vong.
> 
> The Zahn books are well worth reading if you haven't done so.




 Vong stuff was fairly crap his books were the best ones imho. 

 Think I enjoyed maybe 5/23 of those books or however many there were.

 His legacy books were also decent.


----------



## trappedslider

Well, that went better than I expected, but I knew someone was going to try to split with Andor just wasn't sure who it was going to be. Also, two of the blasters used are clearly based on the AK lol


----------



## wicked cool

Awesome episode. Reminded of those 70’s world war movies with Clint Eastwood and Harrison ford etc. 
this should be the standard for Disney television and not the outlier 
The one nitpick would be the lack of aliens and wildlife (we did get the dr) but this is the best Star Wars since rogue one


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> Well, that went better than I expected, but I knew someone was going to try to split with Andor just wasn't sure who it was going to be.



It turned out about as well as I thought it would - success with high casualties. The kid was clearly too good for this world. I wonder what Cassian will do with his manifesto.


trappedslider said:


> Also, two of the blasters used are clearly based on the AK lol



Yeah, they were a bit jarring. Cassian's, on the other hand, strongly reminds me of Kyle Katarn's blaster from the Jedi Knight games.


----------



## Dioltach

Good, tense episode. I agree with @wicked cool , very reminiscent of the old war movies - very much like Rogue One, in fact. The scenes at the end, with Mon Mothma and Luthen Rael, were great to take the viewer out of the tension of the small-scale bloody heist and remind them that there's a whole Rebellion at stake.


----------



## MarkB

Dioltach said:


> The scenes at the end, with Mon Mothma and Luthen Rael, were great to take the viewer out of the tension of the small-scale bloody heist and remind them that there's a whole Rebellion at stake.



And shows the scale of what they pulled off. We knew it was a big heist, but there was no real indication of its significance on a galactic level. Now we know that it was sufficient to interrupt a Senate session, and galvanise the entire Imperial Security Bureau headquarters.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Yeah, they were a bit jarring. Cassian's, on the other hand, strongly reminds me of Kyle Katarn's blaster from the Jedi Knight games.




That's because it's the exact same model as Kyle Katarn's blaster.


----------



## Older Beholder

Great episode, the visuals of the ships flying into the sky filled with lights was pretty stunning.
While the pacing feels slow across the series so far, the payoffs already feel worth it.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> It turned out about as well as I thought it would



It needed to be successful, in order to give the ISB a reason to pursue Andor. Otherwise, there would be nothing to connect those plot threads together.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> That's because it's the exact same model as Kyle Katarn's blaster.



Bryar Pistol


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> It needed to be successful, in order to give the ISB a reason to pursue Andor. Otherwise, there would be nothing to connect those plot threads together.



The funny thing about the zealous ISB officer is that she was drawing false conclusions in the first place. The item Cassian stole was a red herring, only connected to the rebellion retrospectively. Probably explains why it was taking her so long to find a pattern.


----------



## pukunui

The meteor shower was beautifully done.

Mon Mothma certainly has a lippy teenage daughter.

I thought it was a bit sad that all the POC on the rebel team were either killed or left behind.

Karn seems to be spinning his wheels but, that said, I appreciated the juxtaposition of his suburban banality with the life-and-death stakes of the heist rebels.

Clearly Karn hasn’t stopped thinking about Cassian, despite having lost his job. I wonder if he’ll end up working for the ISB.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> It needed to be successful, in order to give the ISB a reason to pursue Andor. Otherwise, there would be nothing to connect those plot threads together.




I'm expecting the Empire to find the stolen corporate blaster on the planet, and that this will start joining the threads together and lead the Empire to think that Andor is one of the leaders of the rebellion.


----------



## Dioltach

Then there's also the possibility that Andor will return home to pay off his debts, and run into ISB instead of the corporate goons.


----------



## Celebrim

Dioltach said:


> Then there's also the possibility that Andor will return home to pay off his debts, and run into ISB instead of the corporate goons.




Yeah, it feels rather short sighted of Andor to make two somewhat contradictory decisions: 

1) Follow his professional ethics and kill the traitor so that he can complete the job he was paid for.
2) Burn bridges with his employer and go on the run using his own limited resources.  

I guess Andor is still thinking the work is too risky and just trying to stay alive, but he's already in deep.  But maybe he's just burning the bridge with Vel, knowing that she's never going to trust him after he killed Skeen and this is the only safe way to exit the situation. 

 On the other hand, he has no way of reconnecting with Luthen without Vel.    So maybe he has to go back to Bix to get reconnected.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I don't know that Vel will never trust him. He only took the share he was owed (which is nothing compared to the money they stole). He did pretty much do exaclty what he was paid for, and probably saved her from being shot in the back by Skeen. (And she probably will believe the latter more easily because of the former). 
That isn't to say she won't have doubts, and she'll know that she really makes sure what he is in for and what not beforehand.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Yeah, it feels rather short sighted of Andor to make two somewhat contradictory decisions:
> 
> 1) Follow his professional ethics and kill the traitor so that he can complete the job he was paid for.
> 2) Burn bridges with his employer and go on the run using his own limited resources.
> 
> I guess Andor is still thinking the work is too risky and just trying to stay alive, but he's already in deep.  But maybe he's just burning the bridge with Vel, knowing that she's never going to trust him after he killed Skeen and this is the only safe way to exit the situation.
> 
> On the other hand, he has no way of reconnecting with Luthen without Vel.    So maybe he has to go back to Bix to get reconnected.



Right now he has ethics, but not commitment. He clearly still has his own task that he's trying to pursue (missing sister) and doesn't want the distraction of joining a rebellion.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Right now he has ethics, but not commitment. He clearly still has his own task that he's trying to pursue (missing sister) and doesn't want the distraction of joining a rebellion.



Who wants to take bets on Dedra being the missing sister?

We have learned suspiciously little about this so called "sister".


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> We have learned suspiciously little about this so called "sister".



Yeah, all we really know is that she's from the same planet as Cassian. Presumably would have to be from his little orphan tribe, but not necessarily family. I wonder if we'll have a return to some flashbacks, or some other form of exposition.


----------



## Davies

-deleted after certain possibilities were imagined-


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Davies said:


> No bet. Dedra's actor, Denise Gough, is in her early forties, and the point of the flashbacks was that Kerri (name from Wikipedia) was too young to come along on the expedition that resulted in Kassa's kidnapping.



What makes you think that is the "sister" Andor is looking for? He hasn't seen her since he was a kid, why would he suddenly start looking for her twenty years later?


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> What makes you think that is the "sister" Andor is looking for? He hasn't seen her since he was a kid, why would he suddenly start looking for her twenty years later?



To be fair, we don't know it's sudden. This could just as easily be something he's been working on for years, even decades, and just not making much headway.


----------



## Davies

Paul Farquhar said:


> What makes you think that is the "sister" Andor is looking for? He hasn't seen her since he was a kid, why would he suddenly start looking for her twenty years later?



The comment was withdrawn.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Davies said:


> The comment was withdrawn.



I'm sorry if I came across as hostile, that was not my intent. That _might_ be the sister he is looking for,


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> Who wants to take bets on Dedra being the missing sister?



You think the ambitious ISB agent is Cassian's missing sister?

I would think it more likely for someone like Cinta to be Cassian's missing sister than Dedra. That said, I doubt we have seen his sister on-screen yet. (I think if it had been Cinta, they would have recognized each other somehow.)


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Remember the official line is that season one covers the first year and season two covers the other four years, leading into Rogue One, so I would be surprised if the sister shows up in season one, or maybe at the very end.

And I don't expect it to be a happy thing. Something has to make Cassian be willing to give his life for the Rebellion. Sure, it could be to protect her, but more likely to prevent what happened to her from happening to more people.


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Remember the official line is that season one covers the first year and season two covers the other four years, leading into Rogue One, so I would be surprised if the sister shows up in season one, or maybe at the very end.
> 
> And I don't expect it to be a happy thing. Something has to make Cassian be willing to give his life for the Rebellion. Sure, it could be to protect her, but more likely to prevent what happened to her from happening to more people.



I'm looking forward to K-2S0 joining in season 2. If it is meant to cover more time, I hope it isn't quite as jerky in its time skips as House of the Dragon has been.


----------



## Davies

pukunui said:


> You think the ambitious ISB agent is Cassian's missing sister?



It is not an impossibility. Her actor is a few months younger than Diego Luna, and since Andor is played significantly younger ... and there was that line in her introductory episode, that line about "that's why we're bringing in officers like you" which implies that there's something unusual in her background.

I am _not_ convinced, but will at least acknowledge the possibility.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> You think the ambitious ISB agent is Cassian's missing sister?
> 
> I would think it more likely for someone like Cinta to be Cassian's missing sister than Dedra. That said, I doubt we have seen his sister on-screen yet. (I think if it had been Cinta, they would have recognized each other somehow.)



There are other ways to be someone's sister other than being a blood relative. Cassian was adopted by Maarva Andor, he might have a sister by adoption.

Or he may simply have been lying when he said the person he was looking for was his sister.


----------



## Rabulias

Paul Farquhar said:


> There are other ways to be someone's sister other than being a blood relative. Cassian was adopted by Maarva Andor, he might have a sister by adoption.



Though the lead he was following in the first episode was a fellow Kenaran, so unless Maarva adopted more than just Cassian from Kenari, this is not likely.


Paul Farquhar said:


> Or he may simply have been lying when he said the person he was looking for was his sister.



This is a possibility, and would be interesting, but we have seen a younger sister that Kassa was close to. It is much more likely he is telling the truth about the person he is seeking.


----------



## Hussar

Daaaaamn.  That show got good.  

Just ... yeah... that was some very good TV.  Hell, that was a good movie.  Tense, seat of the pants, tight writing.  Just all around really, really good.  

About the only quibble I have is that every Imperial officer is not only a colossal douche to the colonized people, but, also abusive parent and whatnot too.  I mean, it's a bit on the nose.  Forgivable and certainly doesn't ruin anything, but, not really needed and honestly, I'd rather they humanized the Imperials a bit too.  Makes a more nuanced story if not every Imperial is an abusive dick to everyone.


----------



## Celebrim

Hussar said:


> Daaaaamn.  That show got good.
> 
> Just ... yeah... that was some very good TV.  Hell, that was a good movie.  Tense, seat of the pants, tight writing.  Just all around really, really good.
> 
> About the only quibble I have is that every Imperial officer is not only a colossal douche to the colonized people, but, also abusive parent and whatnot too.  I mean, it's a bit on the nose.  Forgivable and certainly doesn't ruin anything, but, not really needed and honestly, I'd rather they humanized the Imperials a bit too.  Makes a more nuanced story if not every Imperial is an abusive dick to everyone.




The Imperial base commander's argument with this son and spouse exactly mimics the argument Mon Mothma has with her husband and daughter right down to both having an outer garment neither wanted to wear.  

And the Imperial Colonel was willing to risk his life to (as he thought) save the life of a child.  

The Imperial's that aren't on board with the program, don't get promotions.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> The Imperial's that aren't on board with the program, don't get promotions.



Or turn their backs on it and become rebels. No coincidence that the crew includes both a serving officer and a former stormtrooper.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Rabulias said:


> Though the lead he was following in the first episode was a fellow Kenaran, so unless Maarva adopted more than just Cassian from Kenari, this is not likely.



How would a Kenari get off world, unless they where adopted? Either by Maarva, or someone else (Imprerial).

And in a sense, any female Kenari could be described as Andor's sister.


----------



## Randomthoughts

Watched the last episode and I have to say, this is just as good as the Mandalorian IMHO. Are there one or two more seasons? I read S1 is halfway but thought there was going to be a S3.

That said, this makes me want to run a burgeoning Rebellion campaign! I love how the rebels are a rag-tag band, including mercs and low-lifes.


----------



## Morrus

I’m curious why the soldiers (and the stolen uniforms) weren’t stormtroopers. I thought they were like the standard soldier of the Empire. It was an interesting choice to create a new soldier uniform; it took me slightly out of the Star Wars universe.

Great episode though. I enjoyed it immensely!


----------



## MarkB

Morrus said:


> I’m curious why the soldiers (and the stolen uniforms) weren’t stormtroopers. I thought they were like the standard soldier of the Empire. It was an interesting choice to create a new soldier uniform; it took me slightly out of the Star Wars universe.
> 
> Great episode though. I enjoyed it immensely!



Isn't it the same uniform Han was in after he joined the Empire in Solo? Very similar, at least.


----------



## Morrus

MarkB said:


> Isn't it the same uniform Han was in after he joined the Empire in Solo? Very similar, at least.



Maybe. I don’t recall that film well.


----------



## pukunui

Yeah, that’s the Imperial Army uniform. They’re the grunt soldiers of the Empire. The stormtroopers are the elite soldiers.


----------



## Lidgar

Maybe stormtroopers are more for interplanetary work, like marines? Don’t know. But great episode. Really intense and some nice twists along the way.


----------



## Morrus

pukunui said:


> Yeah, that’s the Imperial Army uniform. They’re the grunt soldiers of the Empire. The stormtroopers are the elite soldiers.



For elite soldiers they do a lot of grunt work!


----------



## pukunui

Morrus said:


> For elite soldiers they do a lot of grunt work!



You’re not wrong!

According to wookieepedia:


> As the Empire reinforced their grip on the galaxy, these units were gradually phased out in some areas and were replaced by stormtrooper garrisons, elite shock troops fanatically loyal to the Emperor himself.


----------



## RuinousPowers

For a show I was not looking forward to, the past 2 episodes were tense and exciting. I'm sad to see this part end, as I didn't find the story from the first episodes very captivating.


----------



## trappedslider

So, that's what a star wars cubical farm looks like


----------



## wicked cool

I’m just a tourist. Wow that scene/area felt like another show. Great stuff 
I at 1 point thought 1 character was a spy but now I’m not sure


----------



## MarkB

Cassian in this episode reminds me of Kraglin in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 - "I didn't mean to do a mutiny."

He really wasn't looking to start a rebellion, but it seems the Empire doesn't have any gears between "low-level oppression" and "de facto martial law".

I wonder whether they really have the infrastructure to support such a large-scale crackdown - presumably our spymaster antiquities-dealer is counting on the answer being "no", and these measures exposing some vulnerabilities for his nascent rebel network to exploit.


----------



## Dioltach

Great episode again. The scene with Maarva was so powerful.

Andor is starting to replace some of the OT on my list of favourite Star Wars. It's definitely some of the best television at the moment.


----------



## Morrus

Sadly it’s apparently drastically underperforming stats-wise.


----------



## DeviousQuail

Great episode. The tension is so good throughout this whole show. Fingers crossed they keep it up for two seasons.

Now I'm just imagining if they did this show, nailed it all the way through, and then released Rogue One.


----------



## Davies

"And the rock cried out, no hiding place."


----------



## Vael

That interaction with the Shoretrooper? Fiona MFing Shaw absolutely killing me? Andor is now my favourite post prequel Star Wars show.


----------



## Randomthoughts

Morrus said:


> Sadly it’s apparently drastically underperforming stats-wise.



Can you elaborate? Is there some tracker on viewership?


----------



## Morrus

Randomthoughts said:


> Can you elaborate? Is there some tracker on viewership?



It’s all over the web — here’s one article but there are plenty of others to look at: 








						ANDOR Viewership Well Below STAR WARS TV Shows Like THE MANDALORIAN And OBI-WAN KENOBI
					

Andor may have received high praise from critics, but some viewership data suggests the Disney+ series is drawing a considerably lower number of Star Wars fans on a weekly basis. Read on for details...




					comicbookmovie.com


----------



## DeviousQuail

Morrus said:


> It’s all over the web — here’s one article but there are plenty of others to look at:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ANDOR Viewership Well Below STAR WARS TV Shows Like THE MANDALORIAN And OBI-WAN KENOBI
> 
> 
> Andor may have received high praise from critics, but some viewership data suggests the Disney+ series is drawing a considerably lower number of Star Wars fans on a weekly basis. Read on for details...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> comicbookmovie.com



Well that is unfortunate. The silver lining is that season 2 was already greenlit and they only planned to do 2 seasons. Us fans should be happy knowing we'll get a full story out of this.


----------



## Randomthoughts

I’m also hoping that word of mouth will garner the show more attention over time. It really is a good show and hope others will eventually see it for themselves.


----------



## Celebrim

Episode VII is just great TV.  We've gotten far enough along in the story that introductions are over and we are forward with everyone's story line.  And wow, this is just doing everything right.  The Galaxy feels big and we aren't just revisiting the same little town on Tatooine.  The political tension is tense, and we see it playing out from the halls of power all the way down to the locals on the receiving end.   We don't feel like a glorified cartoon that is just yucking it up and feeding an audience it doesn't respect memberberries.  It's whip smart.  It's got great characters.  It's telling a story.  It's everything Disney Star Wars just generally isn't.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Morrus said:


> It’s all over the web — here’s one article but there are plenty of others to look at:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ANDOR Viewership Well Below STAR WARS TV Shows Like THE MANDALORIAN And OBI-WAN KENOBI
> 
> 
> Andor may have received high praise from critics, but some viewership data suggests the Disney+ series is drawing a considerably lower number of Star Wars fans on a weekly basis. Read on for details...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> comicbookmovie.com



I think it's to do with the way people watch streamed shows. What I do (and I don't think I'm atypical) is watch the first episode, then decide if I want to see the rest. And Andor very nearly lost me with a boring first episode. The show didn't get interesting until episode 3. If they had stitched the first 3 episodes into a "feature length pilot" I think they would have kept a bigger audience. And done something about the confusing and incoherent flashback sequences. They could have been cut completely once it was clear they didn't work, and delivered the critical information via dialogue.


----------



## Zaukrie

Paul Farquhar said:


> I think it's to do with the way people watch streamed shows. What I do (and I don't think I'm atypical) is watch the first episode, then decide if I want to see the rest. And Andor very nearly lost me with a boring first episode. The show didn't get interesting until episode 3. If they had stitched the first 3 episodes into a "feature length pilot" I think they would have kept a bigger audience. And done something about the confusing and incoherent flashback sequences. They could have been cut completely once it was clear they didn't work, and delivered the critical information via dialogue.



Agreed


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Davies said:


> "And the rock cried out, no hiding place."



I guess I understand why you would write this.

And that sound of prison doors closing over a view on the Imperial Standards cubicles...


----------



## Celebrim

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I guess I understand why you would write this.
> 
> And that sound of prison doors closing over a view on the Imperial Standards cubicles...




Everyone is ultimately going to be carrying their prison with them, even the jailers.

I like Syril and I hope to see him turn his life around, but as a writer the other direction you could take his character is entirely as the tree the ax of Cassian has forgotten.


----------



## John R Davis

I'm clearly odd because I think it is dire and dreary slow, with not a single rebel character to care about.

Aside from some interesting insights into the working of the Empire I can find nothing positive to say.


----------



## pukunui

Finally caught up yesterday.

Luthen’s assistant, Kleya, is more involved than it first seemed. She’s ruthless. I wonder if she’s connected to Saw Gerrera. We haven’t seen him yet.

It was good to see that Cinta is still alive and free, but will she and Vel be able to reunite? Speaking of Vel, I didn’t recognize her at first all glammed up like that.

Even though Syril is clearly bored out of his mind, I’m really liking the middle class humdrum of his current circumstances. Star Wars tends to show only those in extreme wealth or extreme poverty (or those who live apart from it, such as soldiers and Jedi) so getting a glimpse into the lives of the middle class is a nice treat. And his mother is killing it.

Should we believe Maarva about Andor’s sister?

I love the attention to detail on this show – e.g. in the flashbacks showing Clem’s death, the troopers are still in Clone Wars armor. They’re undoubtedly still clones underneath as well. Poor Clem.

Obviously Cassian isn’t going to spend the next six years in jail. Will Vel break him out instead of killing him?

It was fun to see the KX droids as a bit of foreshadowing, even if K2 isn’t going to appear this season.


----------



## trappedslider

pukunui said:


> Even though Syril is clearly bored out of his mind, I’m really liking the middle class humdrum of his current circumstances. Star Wars tends to show only those in extreme wealth or extreme poverty (or those who live apart from it, such as soldiers and Jedi) so getting a glimpse into the lives of the middle class is a nice treat. And his mother is killing it.



I got jewish mother vibes from her:

Q: How many Jewish mothers does it take the change a light bulb?

A: (Sigh) Don’t bother, I’ll sit in the dark, I don’t want to be a nuisance to anybody . . .


----------



## Mallus

So after seven episodes there's a legitimate question about who this series is for, exactly.

There's also an argument to be made that it's also the best Star Wars thing made (so far).

And is Luthen the Rebellion's Thrawn? Discuss!


----------



## Davies

Mallus said:


> And is Luthen the Rebellion's Thrawn? Discuss!




I don't see Thrawn getting played as badly as I think Kleya is playing Luthen, somehow.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Mallus said:


> So after seven episodes there's a legitimate question about who this series is for, exactly.



The intersection between people who like serious political drama and people who like Star Wars.

The trouble is, in order to understand the political situation, you have to have seen the juvenile pulp fantasy action movies [as perceived by some]. Andor cannot serve as a point of entry into the franchise.

Which highlights the limitation of a shared universe to support different sorts of shows. Also see: She Hulk.


Mallus said:


> There's also an argument to be made that it's also the best Star Wars thing made (so far).
> 
> And is Luthen the Rebellion's Thrawn? Discuss!



Given that Luthen is almost certainly toast by the end of the series, I don't think so.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> Given that Luthen is almost certainly toast by the end of the series, I don't think so.



Well, Thrawn was also out of the picture by the time of the original trilogy, so that's not necessarily a disqualifier (hurry up Ahsoka series, need to see how that turns out!)

I feel like Luthen is more in the Saw Gerrera camp in terms of where to take the rebellion, so if he survives at all, I could see him eventually being pushed out by the mainstream Alliance.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Well, Thrawn was also out of the picture by the time of the original trilogy, so that's not necessarily a disqualifier (hurry up Ahsoka series, need to see how that turns out!)



Thrawn had a contingency plan to avoid becoming dead. And a contingency plan for the contingency plan. And will no doubt have found a way to turn his abduction by space whales to his advantage*, and was manipulating events all the way through the original trilogy...

*He had reason to believe Palpatine was about to kill him, his disappearance at Lothal almost certainly was to his advantage.

Luthen is planning on dying.


MarkB said:


> I feel like Luthen is more in the Saw Gerrera camp in terms of where to take the rebellion, so if he survives at all, I could see him eventually being pushed out by the mainstream Alliance.



Luthen intends his death to motivate Mon Mothma to fully commit.

It's established in Rebels that about a year after this she goes on the run.


----------



## pukunui

Davies said:


> I don't see Thrawn getting played as badly as I think Kleya is playing Luthen, somehow.



What makes you think Kleya is playing Luthen? I don't see it.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> Thrawn had a contingency plan to avoid becoming dead. And a contingency plan for the contingency plan. And will no doubt have found a way to turn his abduction by space whales to his advantage*, and was manipulating events all the way through the original trilogy...
> 
> *He had reason to believe Palpatine was about to kill him, his disappearance at Lothal almost certainly was to his advantage.
> 
> Luthen is planning on dying.
> 
> Luthen intends his death to motivate Mon Mothma to fully commit.
> 
> It's established in Rebels that about a year after this she goes on the run.



That makes assumptions about both characters that aren't in evidence on screen.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> That makes assumptions about both characters that aren't in evidence on screen.




Unlike the MCU, Star Wars canon is not limited to what is on-screen. There have been plenty of new novels and comics that are part of the current canon, some involving Thrawn.


----------



## Morrus

Paul Farquhar said:


> Thrawn had a contingency plan to avoid becoming dead.



"Becoming dead" -- the new euphemism for "dying"! 

"Gaining the Dead condition".


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Morrus said:


> "Becoming dead" -- the new euphemism for "dying"!
> 
> "Gaining the Dead condition".



Dead condition can be removed by...


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Unlike the MCU, Star Wars canon is not limited to what is on-screen. There have been plenty of new novels and comics that are part of the current canon, some involving Thrawn.



Indeed, specifically the canon novel Thrawn: Treason, which refers to the Rebels finale and the precarious state of Thrawn's relationship with the emperor at that time.

As for Luthen, it's called good acting. If you watch it closely you can tell what a character is thinking.


----------



## Older Beholder

That episode felt more like THX 1138 than Star Wars.


----------



## trappedslider

Older Beholder said:


> That episode felt more like THX 1138 than Star Wars.



looks like Saw was already a little crazy before Rogue One


----------



## Dioltach

Nice to see young Gollum.


----------



## Rabulias

Melshi! I am guessing he will break out with (or be broken out with) Andor.


----------



## trappedslider

I was thinking about the drink tube and if you could use it to fry the floor outside the pods


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> I was thinking about the drink tube and if you could use it to fry the floor outside the pods



Perhaps, but it only seems to dispense via suction, so there's no opening the valve to spray out a large quantity, and no receptacles to store extra - even the plate and fork have to be stowed away, vertically, after use. They don't even use liquid water in the showers.

On the other hand, it's only the Imperials' feet that are fully insulated, and the floor is electrified in large sections at a time, so it's tough to target specific individuals. Trip an officer and press their face into the floor and you've got a hostage.


----------



## John R Davis

I love the empire in this show.
All the rebel stuff is just dull


----------



## Dioltach

It's a show about small people in a very big galaxy. Not a one of them would come out of the Total Perspective Vortex alive.

But that makes them so relatable. You can see small things like how the tension goes out of Lt. Meero when her boss defends her to his boss. She might be a cog in the workings of a fascist regime,* but we've all had those meetings, when our career depends on approval from the higher-ups.  

* Which I think for the first time we're now also seeing on the personal (as opposed to the "blowing up planets") scale. Andor being arrested and sentenced simply for being in wrong place, prisoners' sentences being doubled with no explanation, and their treatment in general, Bix being arrested based purely on assumption.


----------



## MarkB

Dioltach said:


> Bix being arrested based purely on assumption.



I agree with the rest, but I don't think this was the case. She was brought in for interrogation as part of the investigation into Cassian, both because she's a known associate and because she was involved in the prior incident. Very deliberate targeting in her case.


----------



## Dioltach

MarkB said:


> I agree with the rest, but I don't think this was the case. She was brought in for interrogation as part of the investigation into Cassian, both because she's a known associate and because she was involved in the prior incident. Very deliberate targeting in her case.



I agree with that, I was referring more to the "Hey, you look like someone we're looking for", without first confirming her identity.


----------



## MarkB

Dioltach said:


> I agree with that, I was referring more to the "Hey, you look like someone we're looking for", without first confirming her identity.



They had a picture. There was the whole "if you're not her, the resemblance is striking" line. I don't think calling her out by name is the sign of a faceless oppressor.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Well, this show is certainly slowing back down again, almost as bad as the first two episodes. I almost did not even finish the latest one.


----------



## Nikosandros

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Well, this show is certainly slowing back down again, almost as bad as the first two episodes. I almost did not even finish the latest one.



Strangely, for me the "war" episode felt a bit flat, but I loved the last two episodes.


----------



## Vael

I'd watch whole episodes of Mon Mothma at dinner parties, hating her husband, being fabulous and politicing


----------



## Davies

Vael said:


> I'd watch whole episodes of Mon Mothma at dinner parties



I suspect that this episode will be the last of that for a while. The hating her husband part will probably continue, if, as seems likely, he just escalated the breakdown of their marriage by getting/having Tay killed.


----------



## trappedslider

i'm starting to think Mon's husband is just a twit and not intentionally being a bad guy. I'm also waiting for the daughter to do something like give her parents an actual what-the hell talk


----------



## pukunui

trappedslider said:


> i'm starting to think Mon's husband is just a twit and not intentionally being a bad guy. I'm also waiting for the daughter to do something like give her parents an actual what-the hell talk



I dunno. I feel like he’s not as much of a twit as he appears. That said, I’m not convinced he’s so nefarious as to arrange to have his wife’s old chum assassinated.

As for their daughter, the actress is nailing the sassy, long-suffering teenage girl! (I have several in my household at the moment.)

I’m really curious to see how Cassian gets out of that prison. Anyone have any idea what they are building? They look a bit like KX droid chassis.


----------



## Davies

pukunui said:


> Anyone have any idea what they are building?



Two guesses:

1) TIE fighters -- the part that Cassian is assembling looks like it could be part of the outer wing structure, _or_ part of the command pod.
2) Nothing. It's all busy work that accomplishes nothing. "The objective of X is X."


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Just a mention of a minor easter egg: "Axis" is a synonym for "Fulcrum".


----------



## MarkB

Davies said:


> 2) Nothing. It's all busy work that accomplishes nothing. "The objective of X is X."



I think it's unlikely, the Empire will have trouble supporting this level of mass incarcerations if it isn't putting prisoners to work - but I'm also imagining how soul-crushing it would be for Cassian to be transferred to a different room only to find that they're disassembling the same parts he was previously assembling.


----------



## John R Davis

Yeah, my initial thought was exactly this. Keep the prisoners busy by recycling


----------



## Celebrim

Davies said:


> Two guesses:




The best guess I've seen is that it's the top portion of a probe droid armature assembly.

However, it could also be - and this would fit with Cassian being the Rebels primary case handler for Project Stardust - part of the Death star framing assembly.


----------



## Celebrim

So after watching episode 8, I have many thoughts.  One of them is that there is some tribute here to THX-1338, but I've heard other commentators call that out.

The one that really struck me that I haven't heard anyone else say is that the introduction scene to the prison guards is meant to make clear that the guards are just as much prisoners as the prisoners.  They have the exact same stresses and challenges as the prisoners that they are handling.  They are worried when they are short staffed, and they are regularly short staffed.  They are under what they feel is a crushing timeline and they are terrified when they get behind in their work by even a few seconds.  The episode is meant to show that Palpatine is turning the entire Empire into one vast industrialized prison.  Eventually, everyone is going to be inside a prison like that.


----------



## Morrus

The music made me think _Bladerunner _a lot.


----------



## embee

I think that was the most depressing 48 minutes of sci-fi I have seen since the first episode of _The Leftovers_. Honestly, that episode explains the Rebellion far more than any speech by Jyn Erso ever could. 

Once again, it's a show that tells a story without words.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> I’m really curious to see how Cassian gets out of that prison.




Me too.  But once you breach the other defenses, I feel the whole thing tumbles quickly.  The guards aren't well armed, and the means of evading most of the defenses is just good electrical insulation.  The guards are also shown to be short staffed.  

The prisoners are actually well armed.  They have the tensioners which would make brutal clubs that would basically match guard shock sticks, and they have laser or fusion cutters that in confined quarters would be almost as good as blasters.  And they are all fit from hours of hard manual labor.

I think that one obvious problem with the prison as constructed is that it has very little down time for maintenance.  The guards feel rushed.  During the shift changes they have to get the cells cleaned, provide the clean uniforms, and fix all the stuff that is going to break from routine use.  If you build a prison like this there are some really strong features, but at some level it's got the very same problems that the horribly designed zoos in Jurassic Park have - the system is so complicated that once one part of it breaks the whole thing breaks.

Think of all the things that have to happen that we haven't seen.  They need some way to punish the room and floor supervisors.  They need to move the production from one shift out of the room into a verification area to check the work, and someone has to check that work.  There are portions of the factory that would have to have more freedom of movement between areas than the poor grunts on the factory floor.  And there is clear evidence that the workers are being able to subvert their controls as they move.  Shifts are talking to each other during the shift exchange using sign language.  It really just takes one well-placed guy getting a hold of boots and the guards have a potentially cascading problem.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Me too.  But once you breach the other defenses, I feel the whole thing tumbles quickly.  The guards aren't well armed, and the means of evading most of the defenses is just good electrical insulation.  The guards are also shown to be short staffed.
> 
> The prisoners are actually well armed.  They have the tensioners which would make brutal clubs that would basically match guard shock sticks, and they have laser or fusion cutters that in confined quarters would be almost as good as blasters.  And they are all fit from hours of hard manual labor.
> 
> I think that one obvious problem with the prison as constructed is that it has very little down time for maintenance.  The guards feel rushed.  During the shift changes they have to get the cells cleaned, provide the clean uniforms, and fix all the stuff that is going to break from routine use.  If you build a prison like this there are some really strong features, but at some level it's got the very same problems that the horribly designed zoos in Jurassic Park have - the system is so complicated that once one part of it breaks the whole thing breaks.
> 
> Think of all the things that have to happen that we haven't seen.  They need some way to punish the room and floor supervisors.  They need to move the production from one shift out of the room into a verification area to check the work, and someone has to check that work.  There are portions of the factory that would have to have more freedom of movement between areas than the poor grunts on the factory floor.  And there is clear evidence that the workers are being able to subvert their controls as they move.  Shifts are talking to each other during the shift exchange using sign language.  It really just takes one well-placed guy getting a hold of boots and the guards have a potentially cascading problem.



Their main security measure, aside from the electrified floor, is the physical separation between prisoners and guards, with the prisoners effectively self-policing. But that self-policing is based on the premise of using prisoners near the end of their sentences, on the assumption that they'll be reluctant to jeopardise their imminent freedom.

But the Public Order bill undermines that, by extending the sentences of all prisoners, which removes the incentive for good behaviour.

And there's one time when guards do enter the prisoners' area - when adding or removing prisoners. That seems like the point of vulnerability.


----------



## embee

Realization that didn't sink in until I had my coffee:

At the beginning of the episode, Cassian is brought in to fill a vacant spot at a table. He is the new guy. There is no mention of the prior prisoner.  

At the end of the episode, a prisoner commits suicide. He is treated as a bit of refuse to haul away ("Oi... we're going to be smelling him in the morning."). Left unspoken is that there is now a new vacancy at a table in the room. Another "Cassian" will be filling it soon enough. 

Also, I don't think that the punishment for the table in last place is electrocution (Level 3). I suspect it's Level 2. Intractable pain followed by more interminable labor.


----------



## embee

Celebrim said:


> Me too.  But once you breach the other defenses, I feel the whole thing tumbles quickly.  The guards aren't well armed, and the means of evading most of the defenses is just good electrical insulation.  The guards are also shown to be short staffed.
> 
> The prisoners are actually well armed.  They have the tensioners which would make brutal clubs that would basically match guard shock sticks, and they have laser or fusion cutters that in confined quarters would be almost as good as blasters.  And they are all fit from hours of hard manual labor.
> 
> I think that one obvious problem with the prison as constructed is that it has very little down time for maintenance.  The guards feel rushed.  During the shift changes they have to get the cells cleaned, provide the clean uniforms, and fix all the stuff that is going to break from routine use.  If you build a prison like this there are some really strong features, but at some level it's got the very same problems that the horribly designed zoos in Jurassic Park have - the system is so complicated that once one part of it breaks the whole thing breaks.
> 
> Think of all the things that have to happen that we haven't seen.  They need some way to punish the room and floor supervisors.  They need to move the production from one shift out of the room into a verification area to check the work, and someone has to check that work.  There are portions of the factory that would have to have more freedom of movement between areas than the poor grunts on the factory floor.  And there is clear evidence that the workers are being able to subvert their controls as they move.  Shifts are talking to each other during the shift exchange using sign language.  It really just takes one well-placed guy getting a hold of boots and the guards have a potentially cascading problem.



I think that the prison is better crafted than you give it credit for.

It's not prisoners vs guards. It's cell blocks vs each other, tables against each other. prisoners against each other. And the worst enemy of all is despair. 

Kino Loy is a prisoner. He's ultimately a straw boss. We don't know how long he's been there but only that he's got one year left. He wasn't assigned there. He was sentenced there. 

There are 50 prisoners per room - Loy's the 50th prisoner. The rooms seem to average about 1 suicide a month. So after 4 years, a room will have, on average, lost an entire cohort to suicide. 

As the straw boss, Loy represents the only possible "hope" - last long enough to be the boss. 

That's goddamn insidious. 

You say that all it takes is one guy getting a pair of guard boots. That's like saying that all it takes to put a man on the Moon is a rocket ship. How do you get the boots? If someone gets the boots, how do you know he'll go along with The Plan? This is clutch given that every prisoner is conditioned to view his fellow prisoners as rivals, not allies.


----------



## MarkB

embee said:


> I think that the prison is better crafted than you give it credit for.
> 
> It's not prisoners vs guards. It's cell blocks vs each other, tables against each other. prisoners against each other. And the worst enemy of all is despair.
> 
> Kino Loy is a prisoner. He's ultimately a straw boss. We don't know how long he's been there but only that he's got one year left. He wasn't assigned there. He was sentenced there.
> 
> There are 50 prisoners per room - Loy's the 50th prisoner. The rooms seem to average about 1 suicide a month. So after 4 years, a room will have, on average, lost an entire cohort to suicide.
> 
> As the straw boss, Loy represents the only possible "hope" - last long enough to be the boss.
> 
> That's goddamn insidious.
> 
> You say that all it takes is one guy getting a pair of guard boots. That's like saying that all it takes to put a man on the Moon is a rocket ship. How do you get the boots? If someone gets the boots, how do you know he'll go along with The Plan? This is clutch given that every prisoner is conditioned to view his fellow prisoners as rivals, not allies.



Add to that, the primary means of punishment is general, not targeted. If you know that the result of one of your fellow prisoners grabbing a pair of boots is you and everyone else in the room being subjected to excruciating, possibly lethal punishment, you're conditioned to take down that prisoner yourself.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> Add to that, the primary means of punishment is general, not targeted. If you know that the result of one of your fellow prisoners grabbing a pair of boots is you and everyone else in the room being subjected to excruciating, possibly lethal punishment, you're conditioned to take down that prisoner yourself.



So you kill all the other prisoners first, then steel the guard's boots.

Simples.


----------



## Celebrim

@embee: I'm aware of all that.  I got that the first time.  Also, I suspect all punishment is Level 1 - short term pain.  Level 2 presumably cripples the subject for a considerable period, which you wouldn't want to do to your machine parts.   

And the episode is constructed to give you that overwhelming sense of the inevitability and terror of the prison.  It is a genius setup.  I get the psychology of it.

But it's also made of glass, and the Public Order and Resentencing Directive is part of the hammer that is threatening to smash the system.  

Despair is an enemy of the system.  The designers know that.   For one thing, if prisoner's despair, they commit suicide (which is a weakness in the system IMO).  But the thing about suicidal despairing people is that they often want to take their perceived enemy down with them.  So the designers are walking this fine line between hope and despair.  The prisoners can't have hope, but they also can't let the prisoner's despair.  There are carrots in the system as well as sticks.  

"Revolutions are built on hope."  All that needs to happen to take down the system is for one room to have the sense that can resist.  As long as no one believes resistance is possible, you're right - every table is going to treat every other table as the enemy.  No one wants to be punished.  And even then, if the prisoners have some other hope at all, if they think that they can just work their time and leave then they'll probably not have the courage to take up arms.

But what happens when prisoners in despair get that hope?  As soon as the Empire arbitrarily increased sentence lengths, they broke the one thing keeping every room from despair.  So now the whole system is primed ready to explode.  You can't afford to have a whole room in despair willing to rail itself, because if they are willing to rail themselves then they are also willing to fight.  As soon as one group breaks the system, it will start to cascade.  As long as the groups can only compete, they'll compete.  But this is also the sort of shared environment of hardship that militaries use to forge special forces.  As soon as the groups find something to cooperate on, the Empire will realize it's accidentally invented Sardaukar. 

Another thing that struck me as potential weakness in the system is sorting the prisoners by cultural affiliation.  By sorting out prisoners by home planet, you are importing loyalties that preexist the ones in the artificial culture you've created.  And we can see in that desire for rooms to talk to each other that weakness, because without preexisting loyalties what would rooms have to say to one another?  It's not like things are happening in their lives.  It's preexisting feeling - for a brother, a friend, a fellow citizen - that motivates that.  

Again, any hope but the hope of release and any motivations other than to win is dangerous.


----------



## Rabulias

Celebrim said:


> And the episode is constructed to give you that overwhelming sense of the inevitability and terror of the prison.  It is a genius setup.  I get the psychology of it.
> 
> But it's also made of glass, and the Public Order and Resentencing Directive is part of the hammer that is threatening to smash the system.
> 
> Despair is an enemy of the system.  The designers know that.   For one thing, if prisoner's despair, they commit suicide (which is a weakness in the system IMO).  But the thing about suicidal despairing people is that they often want to take their perceived enemy down with them.  So the designers are walking this fine line between hope and despair.  The prisoners can't have hope, but they also can't let the prisoner's despair.  There are carrots in the system as well as sticks.
> 
> "Revolutions are built on hope."  All that needs to happen to take down the system is for one room to have the sense that can resist.  As long as no one believes resistance is possible, you're right - every table is going to treat every other table as the enemy.  No one wants to be punished.  And even then, if the prisoners have some other hope at all, if they think that they can just work their time and leave then they'll probably not have the courage to take up arms.



Very much so. And I think Luthen realizes this and is why he is pushing the Empire to move more quickly. If the Empire gets to turn the heat up slowly, the citizens adapt and accept the status quo as they can still get by... until it is too late. If the Empire moves too quickly, it will shatter that fragile hope that most people are clinging to. Luthen is looking to light the fire recognizing what the Empire is doing before it is too late.


Celebrim said:


> Another thing that struck me as potential weakness in the system is sorting the prisoners by cultural affiliation.  By sorting out prisoners by home planet, you are importing loyalties that preexist the ones in the artificial culture you've created.  And we can see in that desire for rooms to talk to each other that weakness, because without preexisting loyalties what would rooms have to say to one another?  It's not like things are happening in their lives.  It's preexisting feeling - for a brother, a friend, a fellow citizen - that motivates that.



It may also play into the sign language communication we see.


----------



## trappedslider

Rabulias said:


> Very much so. And I think Luthen realizes this and is why he is pushing the Empire to move more quickly. If the Empire gets to turn the heat up slowly, the citizens adapt and accept the status quo as they can still get by... until it is too late. If the Empire moves too quickly, it will shatter that fragile hope that most people are clinging to. Luthen is looking to light the fire recognizing what the Empire is doing before it is too late.



The frog in boiling water vs slowly turning the heat up.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> @embee: I'm aware of all that.  I got that the first time.  Also, I suspect all punishment is Level 1 - short term pain.  Level 2 presumably cripples the subject for a considerable period, which you wouldn't want to do to your machine parts.
> 
> And the episode is constructed to give you that overwhelming sense of the inevitability and terror of the prison.  It is a genius setup.  I get the psychology of it.
> 
> But it's also made of glass, and the Public Order and Resentencing Directive is part of the hammer that is threatening to smash the system.
> 
> Despair is an enemy of the system.  The designers know that.   For one thing, if prisoner's despair, they commit suicide (which is a weakness in the system IMO).  But the thing about suicidal despairing people is that they often want to take their perceived enemy down with them.  So the designers are walking this fine line between hope and despair.  The prisoners can't have hope, but they also can't let the prisoner's despair.  There are carrots in the system as well as sticks.
> 
> "Revolutions are built on hope."  All that needs to happen to take down the system is for one room to have the sense that can resist.  As long as no one believes resistance is possible, you're right - every table is going to treat every other table as the enemy.  No one wants to be punished.  And even then, if the prisoners have some other hope at all, if they think that they can just work their time and leave then they'll probably not have the courage to take up arms.
> 
> But what happens when prisoners in despair get that hope?  As soon as the Empire arbitrarily increased sentence lengths, they broke the one thing keeping every room from despair.  So now the whole system is primed ready to explode.  You can't afford to have a whole room in despair willing to rail itself, because if they are willing to rail themselves then they are also willing to fight.  As soon as one group breaks the system, it will start to cascade.  As long as the groups can only compete, they'll compete.  But this is also the sort of shared environment of hardship that militaries use to forge special forces.  As soon as the groups find something to cooperate on, the Empire will realize it's accidentally invented Sardaukar.
> 
> Another thing that struck me as potential weakness in the system is sorting the prisoners by cultural affiliation.  By sorting out prisoners by home planet, you are importing loyalties that preexist the ones in the artificial culture you've created.  And we can see in that desire for rooms to talk to each other that weakness, because without preexisting loyalties what would rooms have to say to one another?  It's not like things are happening in their lives.  It's preexisting feeling - for a brother, a friend, a fellow citizen - that motivates that.
> 
> Again, any hope but the hope of release and any motivations other than to win is dangerous.



I suspect the filtering by home planet is to match the inmates to the prison system - there's a distinct lack of non-humans in this one. You don't want to accidentally consign an electrically-resistant alien to your electrified prison - or one who can't get nutrition from the centrally-sourced food sludge.


----------



## RuinousPowers

The more the season progresses the more I feel the flashbacks were completely unnecessary. Even if the big reveal is that Meero is Cassian's sister, it's still time that was wasted. The show could have really used another editing pass to tighten it up.


----------



## pukunui

The question I have is: even if they manage to overwhelm the guards, what then? How do they get out? Do they wait for another prisoner transport? I suppose there could be spacecraft for the guards to use somewhere.


----------



## Randomthoughts

RuinousPowers said:


> The more the season progresses the more I feel the flashbacks were completely unnecessary. Even if the big reveal is that Meero is Cassian's sister, it's still time that was wasted. The show could have really used another editing pass to tighten it up.



Yeah, I agree with this. I really enjoy the show but the "find my sister" arc is all but abandoned during these later episodes. I assume it will be a thread that will be picked up in later seasons, or supply the zinger in this one. But the story could be tighter. 

That being said, I really like the cloak-and-dagger and heist vibes these later episodes have, and how different they are from the normal fare of Star Wars. I like how Luthen isn't portrayed as a noble character (at least IMHO e.g., "people will suffer", "that suffering is needed" (or something like that). And I really like how the start of the rebellion seems pretty messy, with different factions (Luthen vs Saw), motivations and levels of involvement - from the true believers in Alhdanni (not all of them of course), to Mon Mothma and of course, Andor himself. 

Wonderful show (but the beginning episodes were too slow).


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> The question I have is: even if they manage to overwhelm the guards, what then? How do they get out? Do they wait for another prisoner transport? I suppose there could be spacecraft for the guards to use somewhere.



They're building components (unless it really is just busywork), so there has to be a cargo and shipping area somewhere - materials coming in, finished product going out.

One security measure that isn't confirmed as existing, and I haven't seen mentioned yet, but it's got to be there: Most of this facility, and all of the work areas, are below the waterline. If everything else fails, there has to be an ultimate failsafe that floods the whole building. Probably remotely activated.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> I suspect the filtering by home planet is to match the inmates to the prison system - there's a distinct lack of non-humans in this one. You don't want to accidentally consign an electrically-resistant alien to your electrified prison - or one who can't get nutrition from the centrally-sourced food sludge.




My first thought while watching the episode was filtering by planet ensured the prisoners would be able to communicate and work together, which was necessary for the design of the prison.  But then my second thoughts were like, "But they might also be able to communicate and work together too well."


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> They're building components (unless it really is just busywork), so there has to be a cargo and shipping area somewhere - materials coming in, finished product going out.




It's also a working city of some 5000 people.  There has to be shipments of all sorts coming in.  First, there are the parts for the say ~3500 harness assemblies that they build every day.  Each of those seems to weigh say 800 lbs, so that's hundreds of tons per day of components that are going in and out.  And even the sludge, they are probably eating like 7 tons of it per day.  Assume they need deliveries of soap and disinfectant, plus enough amenities for the guards to keep them from revolting, plus all the parts that have to be maintained daily in a giant working factor complex to keep all those hundreds of thousands of parts working, plus transports for the contractors that you'll have to pay to repair all that stuff, and yeah there are dozens of semi-truck loads worth of things going in and out per day.  

The trouble though is you at best would get one or two ships hijacked before the Empire learns what is going on, so maybe 1-2% of the factory could actually escape and everyone else is going to be made an example of, unless you can get outside help.



> One security measure that isn't confirmed as existing, and I haven't seen mentioned yet, but it's got to be there: Most of this facility, and all of the work areas, are below the waterline. If everything else fails, there has to be an ultimate failsafe that floods the whole building. Probably remotely activated.




Brutal but logical.  On the other hand, you probably don't want to flood the non-living spaces of the factory even as a failsafe.  The factory is worth more than the workers in it as far as the Empire would be concerned.  Most machinery does not like being emersed in water.


----------



## Sacrosanct

pukunui said:


> I’m really curious to see how Cassian gets out of that prison. Anyone have any idea what they are building? They look a bit like KX droid chassis.



Imperial Recon Droid apparently.


----------



## pukunui

Sacrosanct said:


> Imperial Recon Droid apparently.



I've seen that as a suggestion on the internet, yes. Hopefully we'll get some kind of confirmation as Cassian leaves.


----------



## Older Beholder

Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone has said 'I've got a bad feeling about this' despite there being plenty of things to have had a bad feeling about so far.


----------



## Celebrim

Older Beholder said:


> Unless I missed it, I don't think anyone has said 'I've got a bad feeling about this' despite there being plenty of things to have had a bad feeling about so far.




The show is almost entirely devoid of memberberries.  It's nice.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

You know what the whole "prisoner in charge of the other prisoners" thing made me think of right away, which younger folks would not see, if they don't know their history? Concentration camps and how certain Jewish prisoners were put in charge of keeping the others in line and behaving.


----------



## Older Beholder

Celebrim said:


> The show is almost entirely devoid of memberberries.  It's nice.



It's a credit to the restraint of the writers.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> The question I have is: even if they manage to overwhelm the guards, what then? How do they get out? Do they wait for another prisoner transport? I suppose there could be spacecraft for the guards to use somewhere.



I think it's more likely that Andor will be tracked down by the ISB, then rescued by rebels, than escape by himself.


----------



## Sacrosanct

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> You know what the whole "prisoner in charge of the other prisoners" thing made me think of right away, which younger folks would not see, if they don't know their history? Concentration camps and how certain Jewish prisoners were put in charge of keeping the others in line and behaving.



That's pretty typical of most prison labor camps, not just Jewish concentration camps though, right?  I seem to recall the Chinese labor camps up until at least the 1950s, The Burma Railway (Japanese labor camps), and Russian labor camps doing the same.


----------



## phuong

I wasn't sure if Andor was going to be exciting enough but by the end of the 3rd episode I was hooked hard and binge watched the rest of the series in one night.  Just fantastic atmosphere, setting, characters, story telling.  I really felt like I was back inside the original George Lucas universe.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Sacrosanct said:


> That's pretty typical of most prison labor camps, not just Jewish concentration camps though, right?  I seem to recall the Chinese labor camps up until at least the 1950s, The Burma Railway (Japanese labor camps), and Russian labor camps doing the same.



I think inmate trustees are common in most prison systems.

It's much like prefects in boarding schools for that matter.


----------



## pukunui

Character check-in as of episode 9:

*Cassian *is planning an escape with some of the other prisoners.
*Mon *is still having to deal with a snarky teenager and is also having doubts about her mission.
*Vel *is Mon's cousin.
*Tay *is still alive and is suggesting Mon take a loan from a gangster who wants to be seen at Mon's apartments as part of the deal.
*Perrin *is still stirring things up between his wife and daughter.
Poor *Bix* is being tortured by the sounds of genocide.
*Syril *has received a promotion and is also stalking Dedra at the ISB because he wants what she wants (or does he just want her?).
*Syril's mom* is still guilt-tripping him.
*Dedra *is getting what she wants, even though she feels like she's wasting her time.
*Heert *is continuing to impress Dedra with his initiative.
*Kino *is realizing that "staying on program" may not get him what he wants after all.
*Melshi* is still biding his time.
*Ulaf* is finally free.


----------



## reelo

Celebrim said:


> The show is almost entirely devoid of memberberries. It's nice.



Here's one, though. But don't ask me about it.


----------



## Ryujin

Sacrosanct said:


> Imperial Recon Droid apparently.



Also looks remarkably like it could be the junction point of the solar arrays on a Tie Fighter.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> The show is almost entirely devoid of memberberries.  It's nice.



And when they do pick one, it's the most chilling you could imagine. That cutaway to the patrolling guard's feet as the door closes on the screaming Bix - augh.

I just finished watching the episode, and I'm still having chills. The sense of crushing oppression they deliver in each episode just keeps ramping up.


----------



## wicked cool

Another solid episodr


----------



## Vael

Considering this is the same Empire that makes Death Stars ... that torture device might be the most f*cked up thing that's been created.


----------



## Dioltach

Yup, the voices of children, no less.

This is the most evil we've seen the Empire. It felt suffocating just watching this episode. I think anyone watching this show, and then watching the OT, will have an even more cathartic experience than we did back in the day. Back then, the Empire was something we loved to hate. Now, it's just something to hate.


----------



## embee

This show has gone from tense to taut to gripping to exciting to terrifying. 

Every actor is delivering an epic tour de force of barely restrained emotions. Syril's mother steals every scene she's in, though Syril steals many of his own. Dedra Meero is bone-chillingly ruthless. Dr. Gorst is a somewhat generic depiction of a Mengele-style villain but scary in his own right. Even Ulad, a minor part, evokes a bit of pathos reminiscent of Brooks from _Shawshank Redemption_. 

My only regret is that this production team hasn't done more for Star Wars earlier. This is Star Wars at its full potential.


----------



## MarkB

Dioltach said:


> Yup, the voices of children, no less.
> 
> This is the most evil we've seen the Empire. It felt suffocating just watching this episode. I think anyone watching this show, and then watching the OT, will have an even more cathartic experience than we did back in the day. Back then, the Empire was something we loved to hate. Now, it's just something to hate.



It's like high-functioning sociopathy as a societal trait. To understand those sounds, to know how and why they would cause unbearable distress, yet to have no emotional reaction to the choice to deliberately apply that distress to another being.

I was left shaken for a good half-hour after watching the episode. Still feeling it as I recall the details.


----------



## trappedslider

Well, that's a way to remind us of how evil the empire is. You know I think Kino when he ran his hands through his hair was a "holy crap, what's really going on" moment for him.


----------



## MarkB

I'll be interested to see this not-a-banker Mon Mothma is about to be indebted to. Are we thinking independent gangster, or a member of one of the Star Wars galaxy's known criminal syndicates?


----------



## RuinousPowers

I'm not disliking the show, but it is starting to drag its feet again. The whole "we torture you with dying children" comes across as mustache twirling evil, but without the humor. It's just over the top ridiculousness, but played totally straight.


----------



## embee

RuinousPowers said:


> I'm not disliking the show, but it is starting to drag its feet again. The whole "we torture you with dying children" comes across as mustache twirling evil, but without the humor. It's just over the top ridiculousness, but played totally straight.



I feel like that's the sort of thing that they certainly would have used on Leia in Star Wars and Han in Empire Strikes Back.


----------



## Celebrim

RuinousPowers said:


> I'm not disliking the show, but it is starting to drag its feet again. The whole "we torture you with dying children" comes across as mustache twirling evil, but without the humor. It's just over the top ridiculousness, but played totally straight.




I agree that was one of the weaker moments.  The show is too gritty to insert that sort of magic in here and then imagine it can be bottled by a machine.  

Still, the actress nailed it.

I'm likewise not necessarily liking where they are going with Syril.  He's obviously lost his marbles at this point, which is no way to win the girl.  I was looking forward to those two being a team and maybe attracting the jealousy of Heert.  

I rank this probably as one of my bottom 2 episodes, just because it was short, predictable and we got too many viewpoints where not a lot is going on.  However, Diego Luna continues to shine and his plot line managed to carry the episode.  We also see that Deedra is not far behind "Axis", as she's learned of the plot he's trying to get Saw in on to provide air cover.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

So this new interrogation method is so perfect at getting information that they somehow decide to abandon it and go with those interrogation droids in the movies?


----------



## Sacrosanct

RuinousPowers said:


> I'm not disliking the show, but it is starting to drag its feet again.



I'm pretty sure the next episode will be...not dragging its feet


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> So this new interrogation method is so perfect at getting information that they somehow decide to abandon it and go with those interrogation droids in the movies?



How do you know the interrogation droids don't incorporate it?


----------



## Hussar

Have we ever seen an example of torture not working in Star Wars?   It's not like anyone resisted it.  At most, Leia gives up an older Rebel base, but, then again, she's got Force resistances to draw from.  Which means you can wave away most plot points.

That being said though, this is probably one of the best SF series I've seen in a long time.  This goes right up there with The Expanse for me.  I'll cop to not being totally on board with the first couple of episodes - too much flashback and waaaay to plodding for me.  But since then?  Oh yeah.  Even the last three episodes, where there's been pretty much no action to speak of, just people talking to each other, have been edge of the seat watching for me.

Very, very different tone from standard Star Wars.  Much more nuanced and mature and, as someone said earlier, this would make a terrible entry point into Star Wars, but, as a different view of Star Wars?  More please.  

Funny thing about viewership though, I wonder if I'm a weird one.  See, with streaming shows, I don't watch them when they come out.  I wait until there are two or three episodes and then watch them all - it helps me to follow the story better.  I lose details when I watch week on week, particularly in a show that has this many characters.  

I think I'll wait out a bit for the season finale to see what the viewership statistics are.  It might catch back up.  I really hope so.  And I really hope this writing team gets another crack at a Star Wars series.  They've very certainly got what I want.


----------



## Lidgar

Dang, the empire is freaking evil.


----------



## Rabulias

MarkB said:


> How do you know the interrogation droids don't incorporate it?



Fair point. Maybe the droid does not incorporate it, but uses something newer, that is faster/more evil?

Also, we don't know yet how this whole thing works out for Meero. We know Andor does not get caught, but if her investigation becomes some embarrassing debacle for the Empire, her and her methods may all become tainted in the future.


----------



## Davies

Celebrim said:


> I'm likewise not necessarily liking where they are going with Syril.  He's obviously lost his marbles at this point, which is no way to win the girl.



I suspect that may not number among his goals. He doesn't want to be _with_ her. He wants to be in (what he imagines as) her station.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

RuinousPowers said:


> I'm not disliking the show, but it is starting to drag its feet again.



This. They really need to avoid episodes in which nothing happens. It's self-indulgent.


----------



## reelo

Paul Farquhar said:


> This. They really need to avoid episodes in which nothing happens. It's self-indulgent.



_Au contraire, mon ami!_ this is some of the best Star Wars I've ever seen _because_ it's a slow-burn. It's refreshingly different. Though I can see how a generation of ppl who are used to MCU movies might think it's boring.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

reelo said:


> _Au contraire, mon ami!_ this is some of the best Star Wars I've ever seen _because_ it's a slow-burn. It's refreshingly different. Though I can see how a generation of ppl who are used to MCU movies might think it's boring.



I'm used to 1970s Doctor Who, with 6 episodes of running up and down corridors, and I think it's boring!


----------



## Hussar

reelo said:


> _Au contraire, mon ami!_ this is some of the best Star Wars I've ever seen _because_ it's a slow-burn. It's refreshingly different. Though I can see how a generation of ppl who are used to MCU movies might think it's boring.




Wow that’s not condescending at all. 

Yikes.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> This. They really need to avoid episodes in which nothing happens. It's self-indulgent.




I don't feel "nothing happens"

a) A minor character died and the death was meaningful.
b) Another minor character did a heel face turn and we had reason to care.
c) Syril has developed an obsession with Deedra to go along with his obsession with Andor.  It wasn't a good look, and I feel his character is death spiraling, which is sad because I was rooting for him.  Which again, just shows I had reason to care.
d) Deedra got promoted and is now assuming a position of leadership within the ISB Oversector group she's a part of.  We learn that she is right on the heels of Luthien, having detected the very plan that Luthien is trying to get Saw to get on board.  But after being put into a position to root for her earlier on, we're now rooting against her even as she triumphs.  

I do feel that some of the plot lines were weak resulting in poor pacing.

i) Bix failed to develop in any way as a character.  The torture scene was IMO weak, although that may not be fair because some people found it really strong world building.  Deedra as a field agent may have been her weakest scene, and the whole torture scene was a lot of telling not showing - something Andor has been otherwise good at avoiding.  There are more minor characters on Ferrix that we care about than Bix.
ii) Mon Mothma's plot line continues to be about the weakest of the bunch and also the most jagged story telling since we skip around so much.  While new plot points have been introduced and the insight into the politics of the empire in this period is interesting, I feel it's not interesting enough to really justify the time we are taking on it.
iii) The Vel plotline continued to be weak, and really we've had no reason to see her since the end of the Aldanni episode.  Learning she was related to the Mothma's also was a "small galaxy" move that didn't really advance any plots, and it also wasted the viewers time with Mon Mothma.  

I feel part of the problem is ultimately how actors in TV shows are contracted.  Contracts for actors generally require that they appear in X episodes if they are going to be a long term part of the show.  If you want a primary cast member, you can't have them only appearing in 3 shows per season.


----------



## Zaukrie

I got the feeling they weren't really cousins.... Am I the only one that saw the senator stroke Vels arm? I mean, my wife thought I was wrong....Vel also used the same line about the rebellion taking the lead in life that she and her lover use. I'm sure I'm wrong...

I think the prison stuff is great. I think the idea the rebel leaders want the empire to get more evil, to stoke rebellion, is great. Some real life parallels there....

The torture scene was much better than watching it like GoT. But the characters back home just aren't growing. Also, man, those early flashbacks were a total waste.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> I don't feel "nothing happens"
> 
> a) A minor character died and the death was meaningful.



Who, the old convict guy? It was obvious he was going to die from the point he was introduced. His only purpose in the narrative was to die to show how horrible the Empire is.


Celebrim said:


> b) Another minor character did a heel face turn and we had reason to care.



Who? I must have missed that.


Celebrim said:


> c) Syril has developed an obsession with Deedra to go along with his obsession with Andor.  It wasn't a good look, and I feel his character is death spiraling, which is sad because I was rooting for him.  Which again, just shows I had reason to care.



Not something that take 50 minutes to establish.


Celebrim said:


> d) Deedra got promoted and is now assuming a position of leadership within the ISB Oversector group she's a part of.  We learn that she is right on the heels of Luthien, having detected the very plan that Luthien is trying to get Saw to get on board.  But after being put into a position to root for her earlier on, we're now rooting against her even as she triumphs.



All this was established in the previous episode.


Celebrim said:


> I do feel that some of the plot lines were weak resulting in poor pacing.
> 
> i) Bix failed to develop in any way as a character.



Agreed.


Celebrim said:


> The torture scene was IMO weak, although that may not be fair because some people found it really strong world building.  Deedra as a field agent may have been her weakest scene, and the whole torture scene was a lot of telling not showing - something Andor has been otherwise good at avoiding.  There are more minor characters on Ferrix that we care about than Bix.
> ii) Mon Mothma's plot line continues to be about the weakest of the bunch and also the most jagged story telling since we skip around so much.  While new plot points have been introduced and the insight into the politics of the empire in this period is interesting, I feel it's not interesting enough to really justify the time we are taking on it.
> iii) The Vel plotline continued to be weak, and really we've had no reason to see her since the end of the Aldanni episode.



Too many characters.


Celebrim said:


> Learning she was related to the Mothma's also was a "small galaxy" move that didn't really advance any plots, and it also wasted the viewers time with Mon Mothma.
> 
> I feel part of the problem is ultimately how actors in TV shows are contracted.  Contracts for actors generally require that they appear in X episodes if they are going to be a long term part of the show.  If you want a primary cast member, you can't have them only appearing in 3 shows per season.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> Who, the old convict guy? It was obvious he was going to die from the point he was introduced. His only purpose in the narrative was to die to show how horrible the Empire is.




Yes, his death was obvious from the time we first met him, but not for the reason you suggest.  They could have killed anyone to how horrible the Empire was.  The point of killing the old guy is that he was a "short timer".  He was about ready to leave.



> Who? I must have missed that.




Kino Loy.  I mean that was the central story arc of the episode.  Kino Loy has represented the hard-nosed tough guy that ultimately believes that if you follow the Empire's rules and work within the system, that eventually it's going to work out - at the end of the program or the process or whatever, there will be a just world.   And now that Andor has his respect, because Andor's team is the most productive on the floor, Andor has been working on him this whole episode trying to get him to see that he can't work with the Empire.  And Kino Loy has literally been turning his back on Andor.  But after the death of "the old guy" and learning that the Empire isn't ever going to let anyone out of the prison converts Kino Loy to Cassian's point of view, signified by the fact that Kino answers Cassian's question about how many guards work each floor.  In other words, the room supervisors and other "trusted" prisoners (like the med-techs and other prisoners that work behind the scenes) will now be in on the escape attempt.

The prison is a microcosm for the whole galaxy.  The whole point of the prison episodes is to convey that really the whole galaxy is within the prison.  This is done in a lot of subtle ways.



> Not something that take 50 minutes to establish.




It didn't.  It took like 4 minutes.  The rest of the show was devoted to the main plot lines with Deedra and Cassian, which very Star Wars like shows viewpoint characters for both the good guys and the bad guys.   



> All this was established in the previous episode.




No, it wasn't.   In the last Episode, Deedra defeated her foil in the board room battle and was allowed to begin her war on the Rebels.  Now we are beginning to see the outcome of that war as Deedra wins victories in the field that are leading to her greater and greater prestige "at court".  And we learned something we did not know, that Deedra has got intelligence on Kreeger from an intercepted rebel logistics pilot which means Saw's assessment that Kreeger is "slow and stupid" may get vindicated as Kreeger will be walking into a trap when he attacks the power plants.



> Too many characters.




Possibly.  As I said, Vel is a decent character but she really hasn't deserved screen time in episodes 7,8 and 9.  That's time that should have been invested in other characters or just cut out to preserve pacing.  But the problem might not be too many characters, but the choppy way each story is being told.  It might have been better to just give Mon Mothma a full episode to establish her and then only cut back to her when she's making decisions that impact the rebellion.  I think it was a mistake for example to not show the dinner party that she didn't want to attend, as it would have beautifully tied in to the canon while actually giving her spotlight time and building a meaningful disagreement between herself and her husband (who is currently being played only as a shallow bimbo, which is uninteresting).  I mean, I could get into depth where I think the pacing goes wrong and why, but EnWorld isn't a particularly friendly place to have a conversation about how the artists need to be didactic (probably to make suits happy) is getting in the way of just telling the story.  Point is, I think between the realities of making a professional TV production meaning that your actor contracts will contain clauses insisting on appearing in a certain number of episodes so that they can be billed as a cast member and not a guest star and all the rest of the screen actor's guild boilerplate, combined with producers that demand "relevant" plot lines is interfering with how things are staged.  

Right now it's not clear that Syril Karn's story has a payoff.  Just when I think they are going to make him relevant again, they keep subverting my expectations.  If Syril Karn doesn't have a payoff worth the time investment, then I'll agree with you that like Vel his time on stage needed to be cut.   But, on the other hand, he's a fascinating viewpoint character and I think the writers are good enough that if they didn't have a gun for him to fire later on, they wouldn't be showing him to you now.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> Yes, his death was obvious from the time we first met him, but not for the reason you suggest.  They could have killed anyone to how horrible the Empire was.  The point of killing the old guy is that he was a "short timer".  He was about ready to leave.



That just made his fate more obvious. If he had walked on wearing a red shirt and carrying a spear it couldn't have made it any more predictable.


Celebrim said:


> Kino Loy.  I mean that was the central story arc of the episode.



Again, predictable. And he hasn't changed his character - he is still working for his own best interests. He has just been shown proof that his best interests are not served by playing by the rules.


Celebrim said:


> It didn't.  It took like 4 minutes.



And then we had 40 minutes of nothing happening.

The last two episodes should have been edited into one, the first two episodes should have been edited into one. This is just someone who can't bear to use the scissors.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> That just made his fate more obvious. If he had walked on wearing a red shirt and carrying a spear it couldn't have made it any more predictable.
> 
> Again, predictable. And he hasn't changed his character - he is still working for his own best interests. He has just been shown proof that his best interests are not served by playing by the rules.
> 
> And then we had 40 minutes of nothing happening.
> 
> The last two episodes should have been edited into one, the first two episodes should have been edited into one. This is just someone who can't bear to use the scissors.



I think we need this level of weight to it. We need to see the prison working as intended, the Imperial system in general working as intended, to really feel the stakes and see the effects on the people. If Andor had walked into prison one week and mounted a mass break-out the next, that would've been just bog-standard Imperial incompetence.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> I think we need this level of weight to it. We need to see the prison working as intended, the Imperial system in general working as intended, to really feel the stakes and see the effects on the people. If Andor had walked into prison one week and mounted a mass break-out the next, that would've been just bog-standard Imperial incompetence.




Agreed.

Most of my concerns on the pacing are agnostic, in as much as they are scenes that currently do not have a payoff but which may have a payoff at a future point.  

a) The Syril Karn story line after episode #3.
b) The childhood flashbacks in episodes #1 and #2.
c) The Vel story line after episode #6.
d) Is Mon Mothma's character being explored deeply enough to justify the time?  I feel like she either needs less screen time or more depending on what the story around her is driving at.  For example, her story suffers for the lack of any foil but her husband, who hasn't been presented with any depth compared to foils and antagonists like Syril, Deedra, Skeen, Blevin or even Syril's mother.  Her antagonist is actually The Emperor himself, so I think it's been a mistake to not put a foil in her way like Sate Pestage.  I also have problems with the lack of nuance she has in her speeches.  She talks like an opposition party in a free government, not like a member of an opposition party in an authoritarian government.  Someone should have spent more time listening to say Russian State TV and how opposition figures word their statements in a way that they are critical but not of the person of the ruler.  

All of that might be filler, depending on what happens in the future.  Of the three, I think following Syril Karn is the most obviously worthwhile and the other two are very much in question.

But I don't feel like this is a show that has filler or wasted dialogue.  The writing is generally very sharp and purposeful.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Rabulias said:


> Fair point. Maybe the droid does not incorporate it, but uses something newer, that is faster/more evil?



It might be just the kind of internal department jealosy and jurisdictional conflicts you might expect from a totalitarian bureaucracy where everyone fears that he's the next on the chopping black and needs some ace in a hole. The kind fo shenengians Dedra was dealing with, when the officer responsible for Feenix refused to hand over information that she could use to further her investigation because it was not her jurisdiction.

Quite simply Darth Vader and Tarkin weren't part of the ISB or commanding an ISB division, so they won't get the fancy ISB tools, they only get the Imperial Navy tools. (But Tarkin was sitting on the Death Star, that would clearly give him, pardon, the Empire, ultimate power and make the ISB an irrelevant organization since no one would even dare to rebel out of fear of losing their homeworld. But hey, if the ISB needs they more screams for their interrogation toy, he could place some microphones on the Death Star target worlds...)


----------



## Sacrosanct

Maybe it's just me, but the hardest/most difficult parts to watch have been the scenes with Syril's mother.


----------



## billd91

Sacrosanct said:


> Maybe it's just me, but the hardest/most difficult parts to watch have been the scenes with Syril's mother.



I've been enjoying them. She reminds of me of Nancy Walker playing Ida, Rhoda Morgenstern's mother.


----------



## embee

Celebrim said:


> Kino Loy. I mean that was the central story arc of the episode. Kino Loy has represented the hard-nosed tough guy that ultimately believes that if you follow the Empire's rules and work within the system, that eventually it's going to work out - at the end of the program or the process or whatever, there will be a just world. And now that Andor has his respect, because Andor's team is the most productive on the floor, Andor has been working on him this whole episode trying to get him to see that he can't work with the Empire. And Kino Loy has literally been turning his back on Andor. But after the death of "the old guy" and learning that the Empire isn't ever going to let anyone out of the prison converts Kino Loy to Cassian's point of view, signified by the fact that Kino answers Cassian's question about how many guards work each floor. In other words, the room supervisors and other "trusted" prisoners (like the med-techs and other prisoners that work behind the scenes) will now be in on the escape attempt.



Well not exactly. Kino Loy had been there for a long time and had less than a year left. He doesn't "believe in the system" or in any kind of just world theory so much as he doesn't want Cassian to cause any trouble that would jeopardize his own place in a very cutthroat world. He was going along to get along. And if working his fellow prisoners to death gets him a step closer to his own freedom, he's okay with that. 

That was the point. 

He thought that playing his little part in the system would get him out. After all, he'd seen that before. Yes prisoners died but prisoners also got freed (so he thought). But with the purge on Level 2, he realized it was all a snow job and that, at this point, they could be purged at any time for any reason. Meaning that his only hope of getting out alive was to escape as soon as possible.

He's not doing it for justice. He's probably not even doing it for revenge. He's still saving his own skin because this is the only way out.


----------



## embee

Sacrosanct said:


> Maybe it's just me, but the hardest/most difficult parts to watch have been the scenes with Syril's mother.



It's not just you. They are painful. That's not to say that they're bad. Every scene is amazing. But they cause emotional anguish.


----------



## Sacrosanct

billd91 said:


> I've been enjoying them. She reminds of me of Nancy Walker playing Ida, Rhoda Morgenstern's mother.



She reminds me of my own mom, so...


----------



## Celebrim

embee said:


> He thought that playing his little part in the system would get him out.




I'm struggling to understand how we disagree.


----------



## embee

Celebrim said:


> I'm struggling to understand how we disagree.



For starters, I don't think Kino ever believed in any kind of just world. He only believed that he knew how the game was played and was more than willing to play that game to save his own skin. His entire motivation the entire time was "don't screw this up for me."

And he doesn't respect Andor. He didn't before and he still doesn't. He barely trusts Andor. Table 5's did its work for same reason as everyone else: 10% hope of prize and 90% fear of pain. Being 1st is great and do everything possible to not be last. 

On top of that, Andor is an obstacle. He's a potential troublemaker which is the last thing Kino wants with the end of his sentence coming up. 

But now, Andor is his only chance at getting out. That's not respect; that's need.


----------



## Ryujin

embee said:


> It's not just you. They are painful. That's not to say that they're bad. Every scene is amazing. But they cause emotional anguish.



Same. Maybe it's that my own mother passed recently. Maybe it's because I can sense what's coming.


----------



## Celebrim

embee said:


> For starters, I don't think Kino ever believed in any kind of just world.




You said it yourself.  "He thought that playing his little part in the system would get him out."  For Kino, and really for most people, that's what a just world looks like.  Most people's just world is just the world that impacts them and if they play the game - whatever that game is - by the rules they'll get what they think they'll have earned.   Not everyone is Thomas Acquinas or Karis Nemik.



> And he doesn't respect Andor. He didn't before and he still doesn't. He barely trusts Andor.




I guess that's a matter of opinion, but I read this in the way his demeanor changes to Andor between the two episodes.  Andor has become part of the team.  It's the shared comradery of hardship.  There are some serious parallels here to infantry platoons at war that I think are probably intentional (40 man, divided into 7 teams, each with a team leader).  Andor last episode was a green recruit.  Now he's part of the platoon, and even looking like NCO material and despite his rabble rousing, treated like that.  

If any of these rooms gets out intact, that's going to be the makings of some seriously elite Rebel infantry.  All they need is weapons training, and I would be very scared.


----------



## pukunui

Celebrim said:


> If any of these rooms gets out intact, that's going to be the makings of some seriously elite Rebel infantry.  All they need is weapons training, and I would be very scared.



Well, we know that Melshi does. Maybe some of the others do too.


----------



## Hussar

Celebrim said:


> If any of these rooms gets out intact, that's going to be the makings of some seriously elite Rebel infantry. All they need is weapons training, and I would be very scared.




I was thinking the same thing. Here’s your Rebel army.


----------



## trappedslider

So, I just realized a very dark parallel "work will set you free".....


----------



## reelo

Here's a bit of "fan art" I made, in reference to an old 70s flick.


----------



## Celebrim

trappedslider said:


> So, I just realized a very dark parallel "work will set you free".....




Lots of parallels to the actual Soviet Gulag system as well.


----------



## trappedslider

https://collider.com/andor-season-2-filming/s


----------



## MarkB

trappedslider said:


> https://collider.com/andor-season-2-filming/s



404 Not Found


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> 404 Not Found



Try it without the s on the end: Here's When 'Andor' Season 2 Starts Filming [Exclusive]

Basically, they're going to start production on season 2 in just a few weeks!


Also from Collider, Andy Serkis says the prison set was very immersive and messed with his head. He also says he got to write his character's backstory, and he decided Kino was originally a shop steward advocating for workers' rights, which caused the Empire to see him as a troublemaker.


----------



## pukunui

Zaukrie said:


> I got the feeling they weren't really cousins.... Am I the only one that saw the senator stroke Vels arm? I mean, my wife thought I was wrong....Vel also used the same line about the rebellion taking the lead in life that she and her lover use. I'm sure I'm wrong...



I think you are wrong. Leida refers to Vel as her aunt (although I don’t think she means it literally). Mon talks about family back home asking her to find out where Vel is. Mon’s husband talks to her like he’s known her for ages. I got “she’s part of the family” from all those scenes.

Also, it’s only just clicked that Mon lives at the Chandrilan embassy. It’s not her own apartment.


----------



## Rabulias

pukunui said:


> I think you are wrong. Leida refers to Vel as her aunt (although I don’t think she means it literally). Mon talks about family back home asking her to find out where Vel is. Mon’s husband talks to her like he’s known her for ages. I got “she’s part of the family” from all those scenes.



Agreed. Additionally, in episode 8, Cinta makes a remark about using a cover story of a "rich girl running away from her family" and Vel's reaction ("Well, that's cold. Even for you.") indicates that is Vel's background.


----------



## reelo

Damn, Episode 10 was seriously epic! Not giving away any spoilers, but there's some fantastic dialogue, some of the best yet seen in Star Wars!


----------



## trappedslider

reelo said:


> Damn, Episode 10 was seriously epic! Not giving away any spoilers, but there's some fantastic dialogue, some of the best yet seen in Star Wars!



Indeed and I totally expected the "Can't swim" from one of them but it was still good.


----------



## Vael

trappedslider said:


> Indeed and I totally expected the "Can't swim" from one of them but it was still good.



MFer Andy Serkis really just performed the hell out of it. All the decisions and thoughts are just written there, and he knew going in he wasn't getting out.


----------



## RuinousPowers

When Andor hits it's stride its a good show, not just a "good for Star Wars" show. If they had just removed some of the excess scenes, a little more editing, then this could have been the best thing to have come out of Disney's Star Wars. It's like they had all these great set pieces but didn't know how to connect them so they made these convoluted, and mostly pointless, segues.


----------



## Celebrim

RuinousPowers said:


> When Andor hits it's stride its a good show, not just a "good for Star Wars" show. If they had just removed some of the excess scenes, a little more editing, then this could have been the best thing to have come out of Disney's Star Wars. It's like they had all these great set pieces but didn't know how to connect them so they made these convoluted, and mostly pointless, segues.




I think the problem ultimately is that they are writing for a 5 season story arc where they have plenty of time for payoffs, but their star backed out and agreed to only two seasons.  So that is going to leave them with a lot of story arcs for otherwise good characters that are going to lack payoffs.

a) At this point, there is not time left to have a reasonable resolution to "where is my sister".  I'm not sure if they were planning that, or whether they just needed some way for his cover to get blown that survived fridge logic, but with one season left it's not important enough to pursue.
b) At this point, as much as I love Syril, with just one season left and his relevancy decreasing all the time, he just needed to disappear after episode three. 
c) Mon Motha's story arc has so far been irrelevant.  It lacks it's own foil/adversary.   It's been very choppy.  She's experiencing no character growth.  She's stuck in the same place churning her wheels.  She's a great character, the set design for the embassy is wonderful, and the perspective from the Senate in this period is welcome, but we either need much more time with her or much less.  There is also a big problem that her husband dynamic is too much like Tim in the first story arc, which makes almost anywhere they could go with this story redundant and/or uninteresting.
d) Vel and Cinta are decent characters, but they've had absolutely nothing to do since episode six and all the time we've digressed to follow Vel and/or Cinta in this period is time wasted.  Additionally, Vel is less interesting of a character than Nemik or Skeen so we are having a bit of a "all the good secondary characters are dying" problem last seen in The Mandalorian season 1.
e) At this point, it's hard to see why we needed the flashbacks to Andor's childhood.  They did not help us understand the character, and they don't seem to be mystery that we are going to revisit in a story arc.  Season 2 will only give us time for 4 more story arcs, so unless we devote 3 episodes to how what happened on that planet is somehow relevant to the Galaxy as a whole, they were a waste of time.

Chopped down to present day Andor and Dedra, the story is very tight and fast moving and the time lost on stories that aren't going anywhere could have at this point fit in more story arc - perhaps more with Saw or other rebel leaders in this period.  Or else we could have given Mon a personal foil in the form of one of those people invited to the dinner party she didn't want, and actually shown Mon being a skilled politician instead of showing how futile everything she does is again and again.

Not saying any of this is bad - the writing is actually solid - but do understand why some people find it slow moving and don't think it's going to overcome that criticism given we only have one more season to tell everyone's stories.


----------



## RuinousPowers

Celebrim said:


> I think the problem ultimately is that they are writing for a 5 season story arc where they have plenty of time for payoffs, but their star backed out and agreed to only two seasons.  So that is going to leave them with a lot of story arcs for otherwise good characters that are going to lack payoffs.
> 
> a) At this point, there is not time left to have a reasonable resolution to "where is my sister".  I'm not sure if they were planning that, or whether they just needed some way for his cover to get blown that survived fridge logic, but with one season left it's not important enough to pursue.
> b) At this point, as much as I love Syril, with just one season left and his relevancy decreasing all the time, he just needed to disappear after episode three.
> c) Mon Motha's story arc has so far been irrelevant.  It lacks it's own foil/adversary.   It's been very choppy.  She's experiencing no character growth.  She's stuck in the same place churning her wheels.  She's a great character, the set design for the embassy is wonderful, and the perspective from the Senate in this period is welcome, but we either need much more time with her or much less.  There is also a big problem that her husband dynamic is too much like Tim in the first story arc, which makes almost anywhere they could go with this story redundant and/or uninteresting.
> d) Vel and Cinta are decent characters, but they've had absolutely nothing to do since episode six and all the time we've digressed to follow Vel and/or Cinta in this period is time wasted.  Additionally, Vel is less interesting of a character than Nemik or Skeen so we are having a bit of a "all the good secondary characters are dying" problem last seen in The Mandalorian season 1.
> e) At this point, it's hard to see why we needed the flashbacks to Andor's childhood.  They did not help us understand the character, and they don't seem to be mystery that we are going to revisit in a story arc.  Season 2 will only give us time for 4 more story arcs, so unless we devote 3 episodes to how what happened on that planet is somehow relevant to the Galaxy as a whole, they were a waste of time.
> 
> Chopped down to present day Andor and Dedra, the story is very tight and fast moving and the time lost on stories that aren't going anywhere could have at this point fit in more story arc - perhaps more with Saw or other rebel leaders in this period.  Or else we could have given Mon a personal foil in the form of one of those people invited to the dinner party she didn't want, and actually shown Mon being a skilled politician instead of showing how futile everything she does is again and again.
> 
> Not saying any of this is bad - the writing is actually solid - but do understand why some people find it slow moving and don't think it's going to overcome that criticism given we only have one more season to tell everyone's stories.



This echoes my thoughts too. I hadn't realized that the show went from 5 seasons to 2, but that should have led to a complete restructuring of the whole season. I think there is a very excellent 7 episode season that could be edited from the whole.


----------



## Dioltach

This show is like the Shawshank Redemption. All about the characters, nothing much happening, then it all comes together. I'll withhold any criticism of "wasted storylines" and "uninteresting characters" until we get to the end. So far, the show deserves the benefit of any doubt.


----------



## Older Beholder

I continue to be blown away at how great this show is. Near perfect at times.
Despite Andy Serkis giving an amazing performance, Stellan Skarsgård's speech at the end stole the show for me (if not the series so far).

"I burn my life for a sunrise I will never see."


----------



## Cadence

Thanos gave that up to.


----------



## Davies

Older Beholder said:


> "I burn my life for a sunrise I will never see."



<rubs fingers together> "I play the world's smallest violin. If the resistance employs the tactics of the oppressor, why support the resistance?"


----------



## Older Beholder

Davies said:


> <rubs fingers together> "I play the world's smallest violin. If the resistance employs the tactics of the oppressor, why support the resistance?"



I thought the line "I burn my life for a sunrise I will never see." was foreshadowing Cassian's fate in Rogue One.
'I share my dreams with ghosts' was another great line from that speech.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

RuinousPowers said:


> This echoes my thoughts too. I hadn't realized that the show went from 5 seasons to 2, but that should have led to a complete restructuring of the whole season. I think there is a very excellent 7 episode season that could be edited from the whole.




We are getting 2 12-episode seasons. That may have originally been planned as 3 8-episode or 4 6-episode seasons. And like you, I never read anywhere that 5 seasons was the confirmed number, just that the series covers the 5 years leading up to Rogue One, so maybe some people are confusing the two.


----------



## Celebrim

WWOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO, was THAT a ride!   Awesome episode.  Amazing.  This is how you get payoffs from slow burns.  

So many good monologues.  

OK, I didn't want to believe it, but Luthien is a Jedi.  Or rather, was a Jedi.   He hints strongly that he was kicked out of the order for experimenting with the Dark Side, and now as a force sensitive he's doing dark and terrible things and so he knows he's damned, because he is sensitive he knows how dark and terrible that they are and he can feel the constant allure.  

Oh it's so good.  Mon Mothma contemplating what she may be sacrificing.  Everyone is giving everything up.


----------



## Celebrim

Davies said:


> <rubs fingers together> "I play the world's smallest violin. If the resistance employs the tactics of the oppressor, why support the resistance?"




How you fight is important.  But it isn't just how you fight.  It's what you are fighting for.

My ancestors were slave owners.  They owned a horse plantation.  Their slaves were relatively privileged compared to field hands, valuable grooms and jockeys and farriers.  But they were still slaves.  When the war came, all the adult men in my family volunteered for the 1st Cavalry.  They fought with great honor and distinction.  One of them was killed when an enemy force feigned a surrender under a white flag, and then shot the Confederates as they approached.  One died in a Union prison camp of exposure, starving in cold.  Eight of the nine adult men in my family didn't survive the war.  

Does it matter that they fought often more bravely and honorably than the ones they fought against?  Maybe.  Maybe it matters some.  But the trouble is, they were fighting for the wrong side.  They were rebels, but they weren't freedom fighters.  They were patriots, but they weren't on the right side.  And that does make a difference.

My family paid a 100 year long price for their mistakes the like of which you can't imagine and I won't describe.

But I can tell you this.  The world isn't nothing but moral greys.  There are things that are right and there are things that are wrong.  And that maybe some times hard to see.  Both sides may and will have people that believe that they are doing the right thing.   Neither side may be right.  But sometimes, you are fighting for what is good and just and true.  And that matters.


----------



## Sacrosanct

The messaging in this episode was loud and clear, especially during election season. 

As an aside, Andy Serkis’s character is quickly becoming one of my top 5 non-core characters in the Star Wars universe.


----------



## Davies

Celebrim said:


> How you fight is important.  But it isn't just how you fight.  It's what you are fighting for.



You are treating a premise as an equation can be reversed, when it cannot. If you fight bravely and nobly for what is wrong, then you are still wrong. That is true. But If you are fighting for what is good and just and true, and you use the tactics of those who fight for what is bad and wrong and false, then why should anyone believe that your allies will, if victorious, uphold those things?


----------



## Celebrim

Davies said:


> You are treating a premise as an equation can be reversed, when it cannot. If you fight bravely and nobly for what is wrong, then you are still wrong. That is true. But If you are fighting for what is good and just and true, and you use the tactics of those who fight for what is bad and wrong and false, then why should anyone believe that your allies will, if victorious, uphold those things?




Because all wars are dirty horrible affairs.  I gave one historical example personally relevant to me of many that history provides.  The measure of a nation is less how they fight the war, than how they make the peace.


----------



## Davies

Celebrim said:


> Because all wars are dirty horrible affairs.  I gave one historical example personally relevant to me of many that history provides.  The measure of a nation is less how they fight the war, than how they make the peace.



But why should anyone believe that someone who fights an unjust war will make a just peace?

That whole speech was just whining about how hard the tough choices he has to make are, after having threatened the life of a child of less than six years. It's disgusting.


----------



## Celebrim

Davies said:


> But why should anyone believe that someone who fights an unjust war will make a just peace?




Is the fight against the Empire unjust?  Or you merely saying that the people doing the fighting are at times doing unjust things.



> That whole speech was just whining about how hard the tough choices he has to make are, after having threatened the life of a child of less than six years. It's disgusting.




The guy giving the speech agrees.  And technically, he did not threaten the life of the child.  He's merely reminding the guy he's handling that he can't get out and that it's the life of his child that is at stake if he messes up or losses his nerve.  Luthien isn't actually going to kill his kid.  What possible value could he get out of turning his contact into an enemy?  No, the real threat to the family is the Empire, who have no such qualms.  All Luthien is doing is planting doubt.  Because he's a spy.  And spies aren't boy scouts, no matter your idealism.  And no, you can't be certain that people who do unjust things will, if they win, remember the scruples that they so recently put down.  That's exactly my point though.  The proof is made when the peace is made.


----------



## Davies

Celebrim said:


> The guy giving the speech agrees.



I don't care.


Celebrim said:


> Luthien isn't actually going to kill his kid.



I have no reason to believe that.


----------



## embee

I have teeth marks in my knuckles from how tense and exciting and thrilling that that episode was.

The only core moment in Star Wars that even begins to approach the level of emotion in this episode is the Throne Room fight in ROTJ when Luke lashes out.

The level of quality of, well, everything in this show is far better than Star Wars deserves. Serkis goddamn nails it. His final pained statement "I can't swim" contains so much pathos. His character arc is amazing. His speech was potent.

Andor knows tension. It does tense on a level I've not seen in a long time. The bad guys don't twirl mustaches or tie damsels to train tracks. They don't even threaten. The gangster's overture to Mon Mothma was perfectly driven home with his line "You know... That's the first untrue thing that you've said."

One might say that the episode is too monologue heavy. But damn if every monologue wasn't great.

I feel bad for the Obi-Wan crew. Andor far eclipses it.


----------



## Celebrim

Davies said:


> I don't care.
> 
> I have no reason to believe that.




It's clear you will believe what you want to believe, and I won't be able to convince you otherwise.


----------



## embee

(duplicate deleted)


----------



## Celebrim

embee said:


> I feel bad for the Obi-Wan crew. Andor far eclipses it.




Excepting Rogue One, until now everything Disney has done with the Star Wars IP has felt like an afterschool 1980's cartoon.  Sometimes, as in about 5 episodes of The Mandalorian, it felt like a really well done cartoon.  But it still felt like a cartoon.  

This to me feels like the first real adult drama since I watch the original trilogy back in the theaters.  It's dark, but it's not gratuitous.  It's not dark because it loves the darkness, but because it hates it.  It's brilliantly written human characters that feel real, not like members of Superfriends playing games with laser swords and killing off faceless mooks to provide the viewers vicarious egotistical power thrills.  

You actually pity the bad guys because the bad guys are also just humans trapped in the system.  The guards huddled in the closet hoping they wouldn't be noticed, you didn't hope they died.  They surely weren't all sadists.   So much of the time Star Wars is offering up violence without cost, war without sacrifice, and in the Disney era, fights whose only purpose is pure spectacle.  Like think how many fights in The Mandalorian involve some nameless group of thugs whose sole purpose is to die for our enjoyment in a visually compelling but meaningless conflict that doesn't advance the story.  

People are dying in Andor, but it isn't for our enjoyment.


----------



## pukunui

Yeah, that was a thrilling episode.

I’ll have to listen to Luthen’s speech again because I did not pick up on any hints that he might be Force sensitive let alone an ex-Jedi.

Sounds like Cassian’s mother is refusing to take her medicine. Cinta overhears as she walks past, then the camera lingers on some unknown guy who’s lurking nearby. A disguised Imperial agent keeping an eye on Cassian’s mom in case Cassian shows up?

I would’ve thought Mon would be happy to get rid of her daughter, given how awful she is to her. But I guess she really does love her anyway and doesn’t want to subject her to the same arranged marriage situation she went through – and certainly doesn’t want to make such a connection with a known gangster. But I suppose in the end she will agree to the arrangement.


----------



## embee

pukunui said:


> I would’ve thought Mon would be happy to get rid of her daughter, given how awful she is to her. But I guess she really does love her anyway and doesn’t want to subject her to the same arranged marriage situation she went through – and certainly doesn’t want to make such a connection with a known gangster. But I suppose in the end she will agree to the arrangement.



She may not like her daughter but she does love her daughter. And she also likely loves her family's good name.


----------



## trappedslider

He who fights monsters
A rebellion is always legal in the first person, such as "our rebellion." It is only in the third person - "their rebellion" - that it becomes illegal.
One man's freedom fighter is another's terrorist
___
When Serkis said he couldn't swim all I could think was
"Are _you_ crazy? _The fall will probably kill_ ya."


----------



## pukunui

So how will Cassian and Melshi make it off that moon?

Also, the whole thing about sacrificing Kreegyr so the ISB doesn’t catch on that they’ve got a leak reminds me of how the Allies in WW2 had to make similar sacrifices in places like Greece and Crete so that the Nazis wouldn’t catch on that their codes had been broken by the enigma device.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> Also, the whole thing about sacrificing Kreegyr so the ISB doesn’t catch on that they’ve got a leak reminds me of how the Allies in WW2 had to make similar sacrifices in places like Greece and Crete so that the Nazis wouldn’t catch on that their codes had been broken by the enigma device.




True, but I think Luthen is lying.  I think in episode 12, Saw will show up with his air cover and save the day and Luthen will have subtly altered the plan to account for the trap.


----------



## phuong

embee said:


> Serkis goddamn nails it.
> 
> Andor knows tension. It does tense on a level I've not seen in a long time. The bad guys don't twirl mustaches or tie damsels to train tracks. They don't even threaten. The



I am blown away.  Just wow.  What a combination of acting, writing, execution.  Just incredible.

This show delivers a world that reflects a reality, not a childish fantasy, where adults have adult emotions, make tough decisions that have consequences. Its grim and dark, but no gratuitous sex and violence.  Everything serves a purpose.

I cannot thank the Disney crew that made this possible.  Incredible gem.  
I feel I could watch all over again immediately and it is not even finished.


----------



## pukunui

Celebrim said:


> True, but I think Luthen is lying.  I think in episode 12, Saw will show up with his air cover and save the day and Luthen will have subtly altered the plan to account for the trap.



I’m not sure how your quote of my post got attributed to trappedslider but anyway, you might be right. We’ll have to wait and see.

Interestingly, the show’s creator has said we’ll find out about Luthen’s past by the end of the series. (Not necessarily this season, though.)

On the topic of Kreegyr, I think it’s a nice detail that he’s a Separatist now fighting as a rebel. One thing SW hasn’t really touched on is what happened to all the Separatist worlds and their people after the end of the Clone Wars. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the former Separatists joined the Rebel Alliance, especially since the Separatist Confederacy had a high concentration of aliens, and the Empire was very anti-alien.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> On the topic of Kreegyr, I think it’s a nice detail that he’s a Separatist now fighting as a rebel. One thing SW hasn’t really touched on is what happened to all the Separatist worlds and their people after the end of the Clone Wars. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the former Separatists joined the Rebel Alliance, especially since the Separatist Confederacy had a high concentration of aliens, and the Empire was very anti-alien.




The Separatist Holdouts are a very real and important part of the equation from BBY 18 to BBY 3 when they became overshadowed by the Alliance to Restore the Republic, and I very much agree that is territory that hasn't been explored enough.

Despite being a treacherous scoundrel, Dooku was a charismatic figure with a public philosophical position that was attractive and defensible.  Lots of people kept the dream of a Separate outer rim based on a free association of worlds alive after or especially after the corporate backers of the CIS were eliminated by Palpatine.  While the Clone Wars officially ended, there were dozens of smaller campaigns in the early years of the Empire to subjugate separatist worlds and leaders that refused to give up their dreams.

What's interesting about trying to fold those separatists into an 'Alliance to Restore the Republic' is that restoring the Republic is sort of the last thing on the Separatists minds.  For more than a decade they've been fighting to leave the Republic, then you've got to come along and convince them to join the project, possibly by convincing them that you are joining their project, a new equitable Republic with representation and guaranteed liberties and freedoms for all worlds.   It's a very interesting problem, and it's one that Andor has been at least touching on with Saw's speech decrying the politics of all other rebel factions but his own - "Human Cultists!" (apparently in his estimation, restoring the Republic goes with implicitly accepting the High Human Culture ideology that the Empire is built on?) or "Galaxy Partitionists!" (who are outsiders to decide for others were borders and sectors should be drawn?).  Saw has the clarity of purpose of a true fanatic, and Luthen is the consumate realist - all ideas get messy in the implementation.  

The Star Wars campaign I've been running for the last 2 years is set in BBY 15 so this is all grist for the brain mill for me.  I had notes on a lot of these things, but the series is giving me lots of depth and lots of new canon to play with.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> I would’ve thought Mon would be happy to get rid of her daughter, given how awful she is to her



Ever met a teenager? If parents didn't keep on loving them despite how awful they are none of us would be here.

Teachers, too, put up with a lot of **** from teenagers and keep on caring.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

RuinousPowers said:


> When Andor hits it's stride its a good show, not just a "good for Star Wars" show. If they had just removed some of the excess scenes, a little more editing, then this could have been the best thing to have come out of Disney's Star Wars. It's like they had all these great set pieces but didn't know how to connect them so they made these convoluted, and mostly pointless, segues.



One in three episodes qualifies as "great".

It's a shame we have to sit through two out of three that are boring in order to get there.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> So how will Cassian and Melshi make it off that moon?
> 
> Also, the whole thing about sacrificing Kreegyr so the ISB doesn’t catch on that they’ve got a leak reminds me of how the Allies in WW2 had to make similar sacrifices in places like Greece and Crete so that the Nazis wouldn’t catch on that their codes had been broken by the enigma device.



The destruction of Coventry was the one that came to my mind. Which was allowed to happen unimpeded and without evacuation to conceal that the Enigma code had been cracked.

The destruction of an entire city makes 50 rebels look like a bargain.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Paul Farquhar said:


> One in three episodes qualifies as "great".
> 
> It's a shame we have to sit through two out of three that are boring in order to get there.




Of the 10 episodes so far, I would say 5 were good, 4 were definitely slow, bordering on boring, and 1 was in between.


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> On the topic of Kreegyr, I think it’s a nice detail that he’s a Separatist now fighting as a rebel. One thing SW hasn’t really touched on is what happened to all the Separatist worlds and their people after the end of the Clone Wars. I wouldn’t be surprised if many of the former Separatists joined the Rebel Alliance, especially since the Separatist Confederacy had a high concentration of aliens, and the Empire was very anti-alien.



It often gets overlooked that the Republic was already an unjust ruler even before it became the Empire. Palpatine exacerbated tensions in order to incite the Separatists to war, but they had legitimate grievances.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> It often gets overlooked that the Republic was already an unjust ruler even before it became the Empire. Palpatine exacerbated tensions in order to incite the Separatists to war, but they had legitimate grievances.



This is addressed in Tales of the Jedi. But who knows how long the Sith had been working to undermine the Republic? Maybe The Acolyte will touch on this.


----------



## wicked cool

Another awesome episode. It’s must watch tv for me and I have a hard tim waiting to watch it. I think it’s even better than the mandalorian and might be one of the better science fiction stories in the past 10 years

I wonder if we see serkis again


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Paul Farquhar said:


> One in three episodes qualifies as "great".
> 
> It's a shame we have to sit through two out of three that are boring in order to get there.




This isn't wrong, but it's also not right. I will say this with the caveat that preferences are individual, and people like what they like. Not all episodes are equally great.

_That said ...._

Remember when you were a kid, and you thought, "Hey, when I'm all grown up, I'm going to eat candy all the time, every meal, every day!" Or maybe it was raw cookie dough. Or pumpkin pie. Or packets of powdered dairy creamer ... not judging.

Anyway, at a certain point, you likely gave up that dream. Mostly because you realized that a non-stop diet of coffee mate packets candy would kill you. But also because constant sugar, all the time, stops being special. If every day is Christmas, then December 25 is just another day. 

It's the same with shows and pacing. What you call boring, others (like me) call necessary plot and character development. Those are the episodes that laid the groundwork for an episode like this to have the resonance that it does. All of that time Cassian has been hiding behind that cynical shell- yes, even in the payroll heist- gets exposed and ripped away as he exhorts Kino to fight. 

I don't say this because everything was perfect before- I still think that the presentation of the flashbacks was odd, although it did help explain the dynamic on the planet (with his "mother" and the understanding of his resentment toward the Empire) but overall, this is _by far_ the best of the Star Wars shows.



> I wonder if we see serkis again




@wicked cool 

On the one hand, the general rule of thumb for television is that if you don't see a character actually die, the character is not dead. And if you do see the character die, they still might get better.

On the other hand, the basic story and narrative beats if the story pretty much require that Kino died. That was the whole point- he always knew that would be the likely final result _if he succeeded_. And yet, he chose to fight. Him not dying would retroactively make all of that ... a lot less powerful.


----------



## MarkB

Snarf Zagyg said:


> On the one hand, the general rule of thumb for television is that if you don't see a character actually die, the character is not dead. And if you do see the character die, they still might get better.
> 
> On the other hand, the basic story and narrative beats if the story pretty much require that Kino died. That was the whole point- he always knew that would be the likely final result _if he succeeded_. And yet, he chose to fight. Him not dying would retroactively make all of that ... a lot less powerful.



Him _ escaping_ would make it a lot less powerful. Him getting left behind, and eventually falling into Dedra's clutches, might make it more so.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> I’ll have to listen to Luthen’s speech again because I did not pick up on any hints that he might be Force sensitive let alone an ex-Jedi.






Spoiler



Listen to it again as if Luthen is recalling his past and ticking off the things that are lost to him.  The first thing he lists is somewhat surprising:

"Calm"

The thing about "Calm" in the Star Was universe is that it is a very loaded term full of resonance.  We learn about "Calm" and it's importance way back in Empire.  Luke asks Yoda how he can know if he is on the Light side, and Yoda tells him: "You will know.  You will know when you are calm, at peace, passive."  For a force user on the light side, to say you have sacrificed your calm is a devastating thing to say.  And because it is both innocuous sounding and devastating in its depths, that's how I know Luthen is a force user.  Because only a good writer would start the speech with "Calm" knowing how loaded that term.

But Luthen continues recounting his sacrifices:

"Kindness", "Kinship", "Love"

Now Luthen is telling us his history.  Because these are things that the Jedi order demands you sacrifice.  The Jedi order as it exists in this era avoids attachment to the point of avoiding even higher emotions.   At some point in the past, Luthen had kindness, kinship, and love - and then those things were lost to him as he journeyed on his path.  But why?

Luthen tells us:

"I have given up all chance at inner peace"   Once again, Luthen returns to the mystical and the religious of experience.  He gave up all chance of inner peace on his path.  

And then he says:

"I share my dreams with ghosts"  Luthen shares his dreams with the dead.  The people who understood Luthen and wanted what he wanted are dead.   And again, "ghosts" is a loaded term in the Star Wars universe.  It brings to mind Force Ghosts.  Luthen's dead that he shares his dreams with are Jedi.

"I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago to which there is only one conclusion"  

Now Luthen gives hints to his timeline.  When did this change start to happen?   When did he give up all chance of "inner peace"?  Fifteen years ago.

And again he returns to the mystical and religious to describe this transformation.

"I'm damned for what I do".

And he tells us why he is damned.

"My anger.  My ego.  My unwillingness to yield.  My eagerness to fight has set me on a path from which there is no escape"  

All these things are Jedi sins.  It's the Jedi who avoid anger and ego.  It's the Jedi whose life is suppose to be a continual act of yielding to the force.  It's the Jedi who are supposed to be always passive, only using the force for defense and never to attack.  Only a Jedi sees damnation in this way within the Star Wars universe.  Only a Jedi talks like this. 

And again, notice the use of loaded Star Wars language.  He's on a "path" for which there is no escape.  

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.  Consume you it will."

Think about this in the excellent terms of the WEG Star Wars D6 RPG.  If Luthen is not a force sensitive, then what he's doing can be justified by the ends.  He's fighting the good fight.  He's acting heroically.   But force sensitives are held to a higher standard.  They have to adhere to Davies idealism.  It matter to them not just whether they are fighting the right fight, but how they fight the fight.  Cassian or another non-force sensitive can shoot a contact in the back for higher purpose, committing murder and betrayal of a friend whom they know is doomed in order to protect the galaxy from an existential threat, but a force sensitive PC that does that earns a dark side point because they do know the full implications of their actions.   Luthen's murky grey path is uniquely torturous to him, because as a force sensitive he can't escape the reality of what he's doing and it's damaging him.

Luthen goes on to say, "I yearned to be a savior to fight against injustice, but by the time I looked down there is no longer any ground beneath my feet.  What is my sacrifice?  I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them.  I burned my decency for someone else's future.  I burned my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see.  The [eager?] that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude.  So what do I sacrifice?  EVERYTHING!"  

In the Star Wars universe, only the Jedi talk like that.  I can tell him for a Jedi the same way I can tell from the language of writer what works they grew up with and chewed over and read and reread.  You don't write that speech as a writer in the Star Wars universe unless you've really chewed over what it means to be a Jedi, and since this writer is good I know he doesn't write that speech by accident.  He knows exactly what he is saying.


----------



## Celebrim

Addendum to the above post.

I'm very much reminded of one of the main story arcs in Avatar the Last Airbender. 

Early on a lot of viewers guessed that Prince Zuko was going to be the fire bending master that trains Aang.  And conversely a lot of viewers heard that theory and either denied or groaned, because it's so predictable and so trite.  And especially with the show being a cartoon, everyone was kind of expecting that if they did go that way, that it would be too easy and involve too little character transformation to go from where Zuko was as a character to the sort of character that would befriend and aid the Avatar.

But of course, while the protest that Zuko becoming a good guy is predictable and trite is a correct one, it's based on the assumption that the writer won't take the time to do that story right and further that because it is predictable and trite that it is just excessively hard to do it right.  But of course, the writers did do it right and it's one of the most powerful arcs in TV cinematic history.

I feel the same way here.  A lot of people guess Luthen was a Jedi from the clues we got before this with the cane and the Khyber crystal and the Holocrons.  And I was definitely among the crowd that denied this and groaned, for the same reason that Zuko becoming a good guy made me groan at first.  

But, if they are going to put in the work to make the reveal work, and they seem to be doing that, then like the Zuko arc this could be absolutely amazing and I'm going to have to eat my words about how the story would be better if we never see a lightsaber the whole time.    Because if you do the work right, then even with the spoiler it doesn't matter.  Zuko's "prodigal son" scene brings tears to my eyes every single time.

Right now my only regret is Diego Luna refused to do all 5 of the originally planned seasons forcing the pacing to be this fast.


----------



## RuinousPowers

Paul Farquhar said:


> One in three episodes qualifies as "great".
> 
> It's a shame we have to sit through two out of three that are boring in order to get there.



I would be more generous and say half instead of a third. But the first 3 episodes were some of the worst of the series.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> Ever met a teenager? If parents didn't keep on loving them despite how awful they are none of us would be here.



I know. I was being somewhat facetious. I have two teenage (and one pre-teen) daughters of my own.



Celebrim said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Listen to it again as if Luthen is recalling his past and ticking off the things that are lost to him.  The first thing he lists is somewhat surprising:
> 
> "Calm"
> 
> The thing about "Calm" in the Star Was universe is that it is a very loaded term full of resonance.  We learn about "Calm" and it's importance way back in Empire.  Luke asks Yoda how he can know if he is on the Light side, and Yoda tells him: "You will know.  You will know when you are calm, at peace, passive."  For a force user on the light side, to say you have sacrificed your calm is a devastating thing to say.  And because it is both innocuous sounding and devastating in its depths, that's how I know Luthen is a force user.  Because only a good writer would start the speech with "Calm" knowing how loaded that term.
> 
> But Luthen continues recounting his sacrifices:
> 
> "Kindness", "Kinship", "Love"
> 
> Now Luthen is telling us his history.  Because these are things that the Jedi order demands you sacrifice.  The Jedi order as it exists in this era avoids attachment to the point of avoiding even higher emotions.   At some point in the past, Luthen had kindness, kinship, and love - and then those things were lost to him as he journeyed on his path.  But why?
> 
> Luthen tells us:
> 
> "I have given up all chance at inner peace"   Once again, Luthen returns to the mystical and the religious of experience.  He gave up all chance of inner peace on his path.
> 
> And then he says:
> 
> "I share my dreams with ghosts"  Luthen shares his dreams with the dead.  The people who understood Luthen and wanted what he wanted are dead.   And again, "ghosts" is a loaded term in the Star Wars universe.  It brings to mind Force Ghosts.  Luthen's dead that he shares his dreams with are Jedi.
> 
> "I wake up every day to an equation I wrote 15 years ago to which there is only one conclusion"
> 
> Now Luthen gives hints to his timeline.  When did this change start to happen?   When did he give up all chance of "inner peace"?  Fifteen years ago.
> 
> And again he returns to the mystical and religious to describe this transformation.
> 
> "I'm damned for what I do".
> 
> And he tells us why he is damned.
> 
> "My anger.  My ego.  My unwillingness to yield.  My eagerness to fight has set me on a path from which there is no escape"
> 
> All these things are Jedi sins.  It's the Jedi who avoid anger and ego.  It's the Jedi whose life is suppose to be a continual act of yielding to the force.  It's the Jedi who are supposed to be always passive, only using the force for defense and never to attack.  Only a Jedi sees damnation in this way within the Star Wars universe.  Only a Jedi talks like this.
> 
> And again, notice the use of loaded Star Wars language.  He's on a "path" for which there is no escape.
> 
> "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.  Consume you it will."
> 
> Think about this in the excellent terms of the WEG Star Wars D6 RPG.  If Luthen is not a force sensitive, then what he's doing can be justified by the ends.  He's fighting the good fight.  He's acting heroically.   But force sensitives are held to a higher standard.  They have to adhere to Davies idealism.  It matter to them not just whether they are fighting the right fight, but how they fight the fight.  Cassian or another non-force sensitive can shoot a contact in the back for higher purpose, committing murder and betrayal of a friend whom they know is doomed in order to protect the galaxy from an existential threat, but a force sensitive PC that does that earns a dark side point because they do know the full implications of their actions.   Luthen's murky grey path is uniquely torturous to him, because as a force sensitive he can't escape the reality of what he's doing and it's damaging him.
> 
> Luthen goes on to say, "I yearned to be a savior to fight against injustice, but by the time I looked down there is no longer any ground beneath my feet.  What is my sacrifice?  I'm condemned to use the tools of my enemy to defeat them.  I burned my decency for someone else's future.  I burned my life to make a sunrise that I know I'll never see.  The [eager?] that started this fight will never have a mirror or an audience or the light of gratitude.  So what do I sacrifice?  EVERYTHING!"
> 
> In the Star Wars universe, only the Jedi talk like that.  I can tell him for a Jedi the same way I can tell from the language of writer what works they grew up with and chewed over and read and reread.  You don't write that speech as a writer in the Star Wars universe unless you've really chewed over what it means to be a Jedi, and since this writer is good I know he doesn't write that speech by accident.  He knows exactly what he is saying.



Somehow you have again attributed a quote from me to someone else. But yes, I did go back and listen again and also looked at what other people were saying around the internet, and I agree that he could very well be a Jedi who calls on the dark side of the Force to accomplish his goals. I do not agree with the theory that he is a Sith with Kleya as his apprentice, though. That seems a bit too far-fetched and does not fit with the speech he just gave his ISB mole. (If Luthen was a Jedi, Kleya could have been his padawan.)

If Luthen is a Jedi, that also explains why the Khyber crystal he loaned Cassian meant so much to him.

I wonder if he has cut himself off from the Force like Luke did many years later.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> Somehow you have again attributed a quote from me to someone else.




Which is weird and I'm not sure how it is happening.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> But yes, I did go back and listen again and also looked at what other people were saying around the internet, and I agree that he could very well be a Jedi who calls on the dark side of the Force to accomplish his goals. I do not agree with the theory that he is a Sith with Kleya as his apprentice, though. That seems a bit too far-fetched and does not fit with the speech he just gave his ISB mole. (If Luthen was a Jedi, Kleya could have been his padawan.)




I personally don't think Luthen is a Sith or that he is wielding Dark Force powers.  Rather, when he talks about "using the tools of the enemy" he means something more subtle such as the fact that his primary mode of operation is spreading fear and deciet.   I don't think he's Sith or ex-Sith because he doesn't talk like a Sith, think like a Sith, or act like a Sith.  A Sith wouldn't say that he's given up the things he's given up, or fill the need to give them up.  Also, while I disagreed with @Davies to a large extent, I don't disagree fully.  If Luthen is going as far into the Dark Side as that, he'd lose sight of the goals.   Unlike Anakin, Luthen is failed, but he's not fallen.


----------



## Zaukrie

Two great, powerful, speeches. One looking at us, asking us to help others. One where the character looked at the camera, but really inside themselves. While it sounded like a speech about himself, it, too, asked us to do something. Truly amazing this is a Disney / Star Wars show.


----------



## Rabulias

Celebrim said:


> Right now my only regret is Diego Luna refused to do all 5 of the originally planned seasons forcing the pacing to be this fast.



I heard it was the producers realizing they would spend 8 to 10 years producing five seasons that drove the decision to move to two seasons.

You make a compelling case for Luthen being an ex-Jedi. I had not considered it before but I may go back and watch his scenes again with that possibility in mind. It may also explain his relationship with Kleya and her loyalty to him if she was his padawan.


----------



## Rabulias

pukunui said:


> Somehow you have again attributed a quote from me to someone else.



I see the quoting in Celebrim's message to be accurate, but maybe I am missing the quote you are talking about.

If I click your name in the quote section, it takes me to your message earlier in the thread that includes the quote.


----------



## Ryujin

For the people who think that Andor is boring, I'm guessing that a movie like GATTACA puts you right to sleep.


----------



## pukunui

Rabulias said:


> I see the quoting in Celebrim's message to be accurate, but maybe I am missing the quote you are talking about.
> 
> If I click your name in the quote section, it takes me to your message earlier in the thread that includes the quote.



I suspect Celebrim went back and fixed the misquotes. Previously it indicated he was quoting trappedslider and wickedcool respectively.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Ryujin said:


> For the people who think that Andor is boring, I'm guessing that a movie like GATTACA puts you right to sleep.




I couldn't even get halfway through that. I also can't stand slow-burning political dramas in general.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Ryujin said:


> For the people who think that Andor is boring, I'm guessing that a movie like GATTACA puts you right to sleep.




Wait until they watch _Drive My Car._

(Great movie, by the way! One of my favorites from the last few years. But it's three hours, and it makes _Gattaca _look like _Crank: High Voltage_).


----------



## tomBitonti

So, I’m enjoying this, and found the prison break exciting.  However, I’m needing a lot of suspension of disbelief.  The prison design is a huge fail.  Weapons adjacent to prisoners?  Doors that don’t require external release?  Key components in prisoner accessible areas?  I guess maybe the facility was repurposed from being a factory to being a prison.  Not a huge problem as I’ve grown well used to such problems in fiction.
TomB


----------



## Lidgar

tomBitonti said:


> So, I’m enjoying this, and found the prison break exciting.  However, I’m needing a lot of suspension of disbelief.  The prison design is a huge fail.  Weapons adjacent to prisoners?  Doors that don’t require external release?  Key components in prisoner accessible areas?  I guess maybe the facility was repurposed from being a factory to being a prison.  Not a huge problem as I’ve grown well used to such problems in fiction.
> TomB



Its Star Wars, where every door can be opened by shooting the control panel with a blaster, and major control switches are on parapets with no safety rails. I just view it as part of the lore...but yeah, hear you there.


----------



## pukunui

I was expecting the prisoners to don the guards' special boots, but they kept leaving them on the racks, so then I was expecting them to pay for that oversight, but they didn't. So the boots ended up being a bit of a red herring -- that is to say, when they turned out not to be as important as I thought they would be.



Lidgar said:


> Its Star Wars, where every door can be opened by shooting the control panel with a blaster, and major control switches are on parapets with no safety rails. I just view it as part of the lore...



Exactly. The Empire doesn't care about health and safety. That being said, the second Death Star had some in the throne room at least ...



			https://v.redd.it/eaf3b80hsct81/DASH_1080.mp4


----------



## Dioltach

pukunui said:


> I was expecting the prisoners to don the guards' special boots, but they kept leaving them on the racks, so then I was expecting them to pay for that oversight, but they didn't. So the boots ended up being a bit of a red herring -- that is to say, when they turned out not to be as important as I thought they would be.



They really wrong-footed the audience. I hope they didn't step on anyone's toes, though: I don't want any of the writers to get the boot.

(OK, I'm done. I'll put a sock in it.)


----------



## trappedslider




----------



## Zardnaar

I liked Andor not a much as Mandalorian or Rebels, better than BoBF. 

Think Obi Wan was also better. Shrugs.
 After Rise of Skywalker and reading the old Legends Crystal Star and Children of the Jedi you'll know bad Star Wars


----------



## pukunui

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to me that Luthen is a Jedi survivor. Between the khyber crystal that means more to him than money and the carefully worded speech he gave his ISB mole, it all adds up. Whether he is actively using the dark side of the Force or is just acting in ways that go against the Jedi code remains to be seen.

That just leaves his "assistant", Kleya. Is she just a ruthlessly dedicated rebel or is she a fellow Jedi survivor? If the latter, she would have been a child when Order 66 was issued. She may have been a youngling like Reva, or perhaps she'd only recently started on her journey as a padawan. 

Hopefully we'll find out more about them both before this series is over!


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

I don't think anyone involved so far is a Jedi and will just take them at face value. I think putting former Jedi or Sith in at this point kinda undercuts the story, showing off how "normal" people deal with the Empire and the rebellion. 

And this episode was fantastic.
Kino did know what he was getting into when he decided to work with Andor. The only way out wasn't one he could take. When he repeated Andors claim that he'd rather die fighting the Empire than keep working for it, he meant it quite literally. 

Luthen gives a strong speech about his sacrifices. But I kinda find Mon Mothma potential sacrifice even more powerful than his - will she sacrfice her daughter for the Rebellion, putting her en route to an arranged marriage, something she despises? Could she live with herself? I see  a possiblity that she refuses, or takoing a huge risk by telling her daughter what really is going on and getting her to agree to play along. But I could also see to go "full-Luthien" and know she hasn't has just sacrificed herself to the cause of the Rebellion, but even her daughter, and that her daughter will likely never forgive her.


----------



## pukunui

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I don't think anyone involved so far is a Jedi and will just take them at face value. I think putting former Jedi or Sith in at this point kinda undercuts the story, showing off how "normal" people deal with the Empire and the rebellion.



Luthen is almost certainly a Jedi. He has a lightsaber crystal, and his recent speech was peppered with coded clues, as elaborated on by @Celebrim above.

I’m on the fence about Kleya. Something feels off about her, but I haven’t quite figured out what yet.


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> Luthen is almost certainly a Jedi. He has a lightsaber crystal, and his recent speech was peppered with coded clues, as elaborated on by @Celebrim above.



I feel like a lot of that was reaching. I'll keep an open mind, but from what's been on-screen so far, I'm just not feeling it.


----------



## Zaukrie

My first thought in seeing him in that robe was JEDI!


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I'm in the don't think Luthen is a jedi camp. For a start he is old enough (Stellan is 71) that we would have seen him in the prequal trilogy or TCW, and he doesn't look like any of those Jedi.

Wild guess: he had a child who became a jedi. The Kyber crystal belonged to them.


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> I feel like a lot of that was reaching. I'll keep an open mind, but from what's been on-screen so far, I'm just not feeling it.



Fair enough. I'm not terribly fussed either way. As long as it works for the story, I'll be happy with whatever.



Paul Farquhar said:


> I'm in the don't think Luthen is a jedi camp. For a start he is old enough (Stellan is 71) that *we would have seen him in the prequal trilogy or TCW*, and he doesn't look like any of those Jedi.



Not necessarily. The Jedi Order was like 10,000 members strong before Order 66. There's no way we've seen anywhere close to that number on screen.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> Fair enough. I'm not terribly fussed either way. As long as it works for the story, I'll be happy with whatever.
> 
> 
> Not necessarily. The Jedi Order was like 10,000 members strong before Order 66. There's no way we've seen anywhere close to that number on screen.



It was 10,000 at the hight (i.e. Episode 1). They were already depleted by the Clone War before Order 66. But he would have been about 50 - not an age to be an obscure padawan, he would have been either senior or a washout. Even if he hadn't been on screen the Inquisitors would have pictures of senior jedi. He would be recognised on Coruscant.

And Failed Jedi doesn't seem to fit the narrative. If he was already failing before the Empire, he didn't have that much to sacrifice.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> It was 10,000 at the hight (i.e. Episode 1). They were already depleted by the Clone War before Order 66. But he would have been about 50 - not an age to be an obscure padawan, he would have been either senior or a washout. Even if he hadn't been on screen the Inquisitors would have pictures of senior jedi. He would be recognised on Coruscant.
> 
> And Failed Jedi doesn't seem to fit the narrative. If he was already failing before the Empire, he didn't have that much to sacrifice.



I think there's enough gray area there to have an older Jedi who wasn't important enough to be a senior member of the order (let alone a council member) but who also wasn't a washout. I also don't have any issue with him being savvy enough to evade the inquisitors and hide in plain sight on Coruscant - especially if he's cut himself off from the Force.

If he's _not_ a Jedi survivor, then the writers have done a good job making me (and plenty of others on the internet) think that he might be.


----------



## Older Beholder

I'm looking forward to getting the new Andor Lego set for Christmas


----------



## Lidgar

Older Beholder said:


> I'm looking forward to getting the new Andor Lego set for Christmas
> 
> View attachment 266437



I like the "Repeat Until Death" prompt. Only for the very committed Legoist!


----------



## trappedslider

Lidgar said:


> I like the "Repeat Until Death" prompt. Only for the very committed Legoist!



I'm gonna share this on the star wars Lego reddit


----------



## Rabulias

pukunui said:


> I think there's enough gray area there to have an older Jedi who wasn't important enough to be a senior member of the order (let alone a council member) but who also wasn't a washout. I also don't have any issue with him being savvy enough to evade the inquisitors and hide in plain sight on Coruscant - especially if he's cut himself off from the Force.
> 
> If he's _not_ a Jedi survivor, then the writers have done a good job making me (and plenty of others on the internet) think that he might be.



Yeah I could see him maybe being a Jedi historian/librarian/archeologist out in the remote regions, which would inform his cover identity and make it so he would not have been seen around Coruscant (and thus definitely not in any of the movies).


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> It was 10,000 at the hight (i.e. Episode 1). They were already depleted by the Clone War before Order 66. But he would have been about 50 - not an age to be an obscure padawan, he would have been either senior or a washout. Even if he hadn't been on screen the Inquisitors would have pictures of senior jedi. He would be recognised on Coruscant.
> 
> And Failed Jedi doesn't seem to fit the narrative. If he was already failing before the Empire, he didn't have that much to sacrifice.



If "Obi Wan" has shown us anything, it's that Jedi age like a fine wine; Spend decades in relative ease, improving with age, and then are exposed to heat and quickly turn to vinegar.


----------



## pukunui

Rabulias said:


> Yeah I could see him maybe being a Jedi historian/librarian/archeologist out in the remote regions, which would inform his cover identity and make it so he would not have been seen around Coruscant (and thus definitely not in any of the movies).



Yes. Like Eno Cordova!


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> Yes. Like Eno Cordova!



I would argue that an obscure and isolated jedi like Cordoval simply does not have that much to sacrifice.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> I would argue that an obscure and isolated jedi like Cordoval simply does not have that much to sacrifice.



Well, as I mentioned upthread, the show's creator has said that Luthen's backstory will be revealed by the end of the show, so we'll just have to wait and see who is right!


----------



## trappedslider

Well that's one idea shot down Andor Creator Debunks 'Nihilistic' Fan Theory About the Prison: 'We're Not That Dark'


----------



## Celebrim

trappedslider said:


> Well that's one idea shot down Andor Creator Debunks 'Nihilistic' Fan Theory About the Prison: 'We're Not That Dark'




Never bought that theory.  It is a theory ground in art, not in setting or story.   It's also a cheap twist.  It was obvious that the writers of the show were very much trying to ground the show in a baseline reality.  The more you think about the theory that they aren't actually making anything useful to the Empire, the less sense it makes.


----------



## Ryujin

Celebrim said:


> Never bought that theory.  It is a theory ground in art, not in setting or story.   It's also a cheap twist.  It was obvious that the writers of the show were very much trying to ground the show in a baseline reality.  The more you think about the theory that they aren't actually making anything useful to the Empire, the less sense it makes.



Especially given that once taken in, they never get out. That makes far more sense for a concentration camp style 'wartime' production facility, than it does casual cruelty.


----------



## Dioltach

I just read an article saying that Star Wars fans are clamouring for an Andor-style show set during the collapse of the Empire. Someone commented that they want a series set after the Battle of Yavin, which is all about Vader explaining the destruction of the Death Star to the Emperor, and the resulting insurance claim.

I have to say, if they got the Andor writing team, I'd probably watch that.


----------



## Ryujin

Dioltach said:


> I just read an article saying that Star Wars fans are clamouring for an Andor-style show set during the collapse of the Empire. Someone commented that they want a series set after the Battle of Yavin, which is all about Vader explaining the destruction of the Death Star to the Emperor, and the resulting insurance claim.
> 
> I have to say, if they got the Andor writing team, I'd probably watch that.



"I'm sorry, but we can't provide coverage for your replacement vehicle. You didn't even put a door on the thing?"


----------



## Dioltach

The quiet drama of the lead claims assessor arguing with his wife about being home late for dinner day after day. Imperial agents trying to hide traces of top secret weapon systems, Rebels trying to steal the files. An auditor driving their team day and night to uncover all the accounts from the construction.

Like I said, I'd watch it.


----------



## Celebrim

Dioltach said:


> I just read an article saying that Star Wars fans are clamoring for an Andor-style show set during the collapse of the Empire. Someone commented that they want a series set after the Battle of Yavin, which is all about Vader explaining the destruction of the Death Star to the Emperor, and the resulting insurance claim.
> 
> I have to say, if they got the Andor writing team, I'd probably watch that.




You know that scene in Clerks where they are discussing whether or not the destruction of the second Death Star is a morally clean act since the second Death Star still being under construction would have had millions of civilian contractors on board, and the contractor comes into the store and discusses the morality of his work and whether a civilian contractor is morally culpable for the contracts he takes.

Well, we actually know that even the first Death Star had a very large number of civilian contractors aboard doing things as mundane as catering, so you could have a character who is the family member of one of those civilian contractors for whom the ax that forgets is Luke Skywalker.  Imagine there is like a teenager aboard the Death Star whose job it is to load lunches for the officers on to Mouse droids for delivery, and there is like this dad who is dead set on vengeance because, "Those terrorists killed my baby!" and he becomes this pro-Imperial vigilante that is out for vengeance - like a Charles Bronson Death Wish style character whose attacking the smugglers that make up the logistics backbone of the Rebellion, and unlike the ISB he's actually good at it because he does human intel well.  And then he could like on his journey meet an orphan from Alderaan and the two could heal together as the dad comes to realize that the world is not the morally simple universe he believed, and if anything as he learns the reality of the Empire's impact outside of the shelter of the Core Worlds, he's actually on the dark side of the spectrum.


----------



## Ryujin

Celebrim said:


> You know that scene in Clerks where they are discussing whether or not the destruction of the second Death Star is a morally clean act since the second Death Star still being under construction would have had millions of civilian contractors on board, and the contractor comes into the store and discusses the morality of his work and whether a civilian contractor is morally culpable for the contracts he takes.
> 
> Well, we actually know that even the first Death Star had a very large number of civilian contractors aboard doing things as mundane as catering, so you could have a character who is the family member of one of those civilian contractors for whom the ax that forgets is Luke Skywalker.  Imagine there is like a teenager aboard the Death Star whose job it is to load lunches for the officers on to Mouse droids for delivery, and there is like this dad who is dead set on vengeance because, "Those terrorists killed my baby!" and he becomes this pro-Imperial vigilante that is out for vengeance - like a Charles Bronson Death Wish style character whose attacking the smugglers that make up the logistics backbone of the Rebellion, and unlike the ISB he's actually good at it because he does human intel well.  And then he could like on his journey meet an orphan from Alderaan and the two could heal together as the dad comes to realize that the world is not the morally simple universe he believed, and if anything as he learns the reality of the Empire's impact outside of the shelter of the Core Worlds, he's actually on the dark side of the spectrum.


----------



## Dioltach

The Death Star explosion should have included a leaflet fluttering around with "Bring Your Kid To Work Day!"


----------



## pukunui

So we've only got two episodes left to go with this season. What do y'all think is going to happen?

Tony Gilroy is confident we'll be satisfied with how this season ends.



> "I saw somebody say that we were spreading ourselves too thin with all these characters," he said. "But we [will] be pulling people together. That is not something that we would let go by. And we won't be leaving you with much of an enigmatic ending."
> 
> "Hopefully, [Episodes 11 and 12] are the most powerful two episodes that we have in the show," he said. "It's our emotional catharsis. It's our physical catharsis. It's our summing up for these 12 episodes. We've invested a lot in it, so we have high expectations that we're paying it off."


----------



## embee

pukunui said:


> So we've only got two episodes left to go with this season. What do y'all think is going to happen?



Sadly, I think that Episodes 11 & 12 will pale in comparison to the Narkina 5 arc. 

Not that I don't believe in the show but, dayum, how do you go up from there?


----------



## pukunui

embee said:


> Sadly, I think that Episodes 11 & 12 will pale in comparison to the Narkina 5 arc.
> 
> Not that I don't believe in the show but, dayum, how do you go up from there?



Showrunner Gilroy thinks the last two episodes are the "most powerful".


----------



## Celebrim

Ryujin said:


>




More seriously, a Janitor aboard an Imperial facility is the sort of character I'd expect to make a difference and get shot at in Andor.


----------



## Celebrim

embee said:


> Sadly, I think that Episodes 11 & 12 will pale in comparison to the Narkina 5 arc.
> 
> Not that I don't believe in the show but, dayum, how do you go up from there?




I know how, but it remains to be seen whether Andor has the budget for what I want.


----------



## embee

trappedslider said:


> Well that's one idea shot down Andor Creator Debunks 'Nihilistic' Fan Theory About the Prison: 'We're Not That Dark'



So that's where the line is. Just past "ISB interrogator with strong Dr. Mengele energy."


----------



## embee

pukunui said:


> Showrunner Gilroy thinks the last two episodes are the "most powerful".



If that's true, then I just can't. This show is already so much better than we deserve.


----------



## Celebrim

embee said:


> If that's true, then I just can't. This show is already so much better than we deserve.




No, this is the show we've deserved ever since Disney bought the product.  It's the other stuff that we didn't deserve - the terrible sequels, the half-baked Solo movie, the live action cartoons that are continually veering into unintentional self-parody, etc.  Star Wars should be better than that.


----------



## Ryujin

Celebrim said:


> More seriously, a Janitor aboard an Imperial facility is the sort of character I'd expect to make a difference and get shot at in Andor.



Less seriously, explained in S1E8


----------



## MarkB

Dioltach said:


> The quiet drama of the lead claims assessor arguing with his wife about being home late for dinner day after day. Imperial agents trying to hide traces of top secret weapon systems, Rebels trying to steal the files. An auditor driving their team day and night to uncover all the accounts from the construction.
> 
> Like I said, I'd watch it.



"Now, sir, you claim that your insurance and licence documents were filed at the Imperial data facility on Scarif. However, this facility was seemingly caught in some form of planetary-scale friendly-fire incident mere days before you lost your vehicle, and several witnesses report seeing an additional moon in the area at the time. Can you shed any light on this?"


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Celebrim said:


> No, this is the show we've deserved ever since Disney bought the product.  It's the other stuff that we didn't deserve - the terrible sequels, the half-baked Solo movie, the live action cartoons that are continually veering into unintentional self-parody, etc.  *Star Wars should be better than that.*




Serious question .... why?

Just think for a second.

You have an original trilogy that consisted of 2.5 really good movies. Arguably, the last great (truly great) Star Wars movie was in 1980 .... *42 years ago*. 

To give you a quick idea on perspective- someone watching _The Empire Strikes Back_ was closer in time to _Casblanca_ than we are to _ESB_.

Other than the original trilogy, we've had-
1. Various forgettable TV specials (Caravan of Courage etc.) and an, um, unforgettable one (HOLIDAY/COCAINE SPECIAL!)

2. A prequel trilogy that was ... well, controversial.

3. A sequel trilogy that was ... well, controversial.

4. Two other movies, ranging from mediocre to pretty good (Solo, Rogue One).

I like Star Wars. I love Andor. 


But TBH, it seems like the fans are getting what they deserve, for the most part. Which .... take that as you will.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Snarf Zagyg said:


> Serious question .... why?



Indeed. Star Wars (ANH) was never intended to be anything more than a forgettable piece of light entertainment. There is no reason to expect anything else in the franchise to be more than that.

The only reason any of these are "controversial" is people's expectations are set way too high.


----------



## MarkB

The latest episode felt like a very transitional one, just lining up all the pieces into place for a showdown next week. It did have a few points of interest, though.

The Ferrix funerary practices put a new spin on all the brickwork seen in their construction. It's nice to have your relatives close and providing ongoing support, but does this mean that urban redevelopment is considered to be desecration of the dead?

Luthen was pretty up-front with Saw. Making it clear that the only reason he wouldn't throw him to the ISB in a pinch is that Saw knows too much. 

And Luthen's ship earns some serious hero-ship status as he escapes an Imperial patrol while leaving the planet.


----------



## Vael

It's a sign of how much I bought into Luthen's way of thinking that after fist pumping over his escape, I'm like ... oh, damn, gotta get rid of that ship before it gets traced back to Luthen's shop.

Also, I had discounted the Luthen is a Jedi theory, and then this episode forced me to reevaluate

B2EMO is breaking my heart and I love Brasso being so empathic towards the droid. I find the status and sentience of Droids is one of the weirdest things about Star Wars, and a lot of things break if you look too closely at it, but I am a sucker for kindness towards droids.


----------



## RuinousPowers

I will be profoundly disappointed if Luthien turns out to be a Jedi. Doubly so if he ignites a lightsaber.


----------



## Dioltach

Luthen's ship was like the Darth Maul double lightsaber moment!

Can't wait for next week's episode. Also, I don't believe Maarva's actually dead. The Sisters of Ferrix have something planned, something that they need Rick's Road closed for.


----------



## Ryujin

RuinousPowers said:


> I will be profoundly disappointed if Luthien turns out to be a Jedi. Doubly so if he ignites a lightsaber.



Well they're certainly teasing the possibility with that rod thing he had. "Either throw it away or give it back."


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

RuinousPowers said:


> I will be profoundly disappointed if Luthien turns out to be a Jedi. Doubly so if he ignites a lightsaber.




I still expect a family member was a Jedi or a Padawan and the crystal he carries was theirs. And he could still be force-sensitive, but never trained formally. He would make a good Grey Force user. KotOR had them and Ahsoka definitely feels like one.


----------



## Celebrim

Vael said:


> B2EMO is breaking my heart and I love Brasso being so empathic towards the droid. I find the status and sentience of Droids is one of the weirdest things about Star Wars, and a lot of things break if you look too closely at it, but I am a sucker for kindness towards droids.




I have always felt Star Wars treatment of artificial intelligences is one of the best things about it.

Artificial intelligences defy current human experience because the only intelligent and sentient beings we are familiar with at present is us.  

Humans therefore tend to respond to robots in one of two equally bad ways.  Either they assert that they are human, and therefore want to treat them according to human rights and dignities.  Or else they assert that they are objects and want to treat them as objects with the rights and dignities of an object.  But AI's would be neither, and either one is a dysfunctional category failure akin to the well-meaning Hermione Granger attempting to trick Hogwarts house elves into receiving clothing in the wrong-headed and condescending effort to "set them free".  Granger is operating from the theory that the best way to relate to a non-human intelligence is to assume its wants, desires, dignities, and so forth are exactly what a human would desire where a human to find itself in the same circumstances.  This is a failure of imagination, or as in Hermione's case, a failure of empathy by our favorite semi-autistic nerd girl.  

Star Wars has always charted what I think is the correct middle way of seeing them as some entirely different class of being with its own set of rights and dignities that good people will recognize and respect, but at the same time not human and not trying to impose on them unwanted humanity.  

It's a fundamental human arrogance to suppose both that everything else wants to be human, and that what humans want is in fact the right and noble way to live.


----------



## Celebrim

Vael said:


> It's a sign of how much I bought into Luthen's way of thinking that after fist pumping over his escape, I'm like ... oh, damn, gotta get rid of that ship before it gets traced back to Luthen's shop.




Which as a Star Wars GM running games in this era is absolutely how protagonists have to think.  Because the good guys simply don't have the resources and the Empire is overwhelmingly powerful.

As for Brasso, I'd love to see a Rebels: Spec Ops series with Brasso and Melsh as Pathfinders conducting small commando missions.


----------



## MarkB

Vael said:


> It's a sign of how much I bought into Luthen's way of thinking that after fist pumping over his escape, I'm like ... oh, damn, gotta get rid of that ship before it gets traced back to Luthen's shop.



He's probably okay, given the sophisticated ID-spoofing tech he has on board. On the other hand, I seem to recall Cassian commenting on how rare it was for a ship of that class to have a hyperdrive, which he pretty clearly demonstrated it to have when escaping.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Celebrim said:


> I have always felt Star Wars treatment of artificial intelligences is one of the best things about it.




The few episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation that dealt with this made you think too, especially the one where Data built his own "daughter".


----------



## Celebrim

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The few episodes of Star Trek: The Next Generation that dealt with this made you think too, especially the one where Data built his own "daughter".




The Data situation is different than the typical Star Wars droid.  Data was made specifically to be an independent sophont by a creator that viewed Data as his progeny and inheritor.  As such, it's quite possible that Data does deserve to be treated as human, does want to be treated as human, and will be made happy and healthy by being treated as a human in a way that is not true of say R2-D2.  

Which isn't to say that R2-D2 is an object but that no one is going to buy an astromech that wants, needs, and deserves to be treated as human and perhaps more critically, it's an engineering design failure that in my opinion is severe enough to be considered an act of immorality to design an astromech that wants or need to be treated as human or has a human emotional framework through which it judges and experiences life.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> He's probably okay, given the sophisticated ID-spoofing tech he has on board. On the other hand, I seem to recall Cassian commenting on how rare it was for a ship of that class to have a hyperdrive, which he pretty clearly demonstrated it to have when escaping.




The PC's in my game have a similar problem.  They fly a medium freighter that has been modified to be an assault carrier that can carry 4 Z-95's.  While they can turn off their transponder and/or transmit a forged transponder code, their ship is unique enough that they are probably the only people in the whole quadrant flying a ship of that sort in that configuration.  When they are doing something clandestine, if they get close enough to an Imperial vessel to get focus scanned and they leave survivors or enough time for the enemy ship to use an unjammed comm system, Imperial Intelligence or the ISB will eventually put two and two together.  They've already gotten in trouble once because they made a banking transaction that raised red flags.  They won't survive another mistake.  Or rather they might, but as they put it, "Pretty soon we're going to have to go work for the Hutts".

It's a good bet the Empire now knows that there is a Fondor Haulcraft out there with a class 0.5 hyperdrive, advanced engines, side mounted lance projectors, advanced targeting software, and an experimental micro-missile array.  The ISB has the resources to simply request all the records of all Fondor Haulcraft that have made hyperspace jumps in the last week, and then go investigate every single one of them.  It's a big galaxy, but any number that isn't in the millions is perfectly doable for the Empire.

And here I was hoping Luthen would survive the season.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Celebrim said:


> The Data situation is different than the typical Star Wars droid.  Data was made specifically to be an independent sophont by a creator that viewed Data as his progeny and inheritor.  As such, it's quite possible that Data does deserve to be treated as human, does want to be treated as human, and will be made happy and healthy by being treated as a human in a way that is not true of say R2-D2.
> 
> Which isn't to say that R2-D2 is an object but that no one is going to buy an astromech that wants, needs, and deserves to be treated as human and perhaps more critically, it's an engineering design failure that in my opinion is severe enough to be considered an act of immorality to design an astromech that wants or need to be treated as human or has a human emotional framework through which it judges and experiences life.




Aside from all that other stuff about Data, he has zero emotion capability until very late in the series/movies, so that is something that Star Wars AI have as an advantage (disadvantage?) over him.


----------



## Ryujin

And yet we frequently see droids being treated simply as property, in Star Wars. Probably one of its few recurring social commentaries.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Ryujin said:


> And yet we frequently see droids being treated simply as property, in Star Wars. Probably one of its few recurring social commentaries.




Yeah, I think the only way to "be your own droid" is to become a bounty hunter. There may be a few that are employed and not owned, but it is still a very grey area to me.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Yeah, I think the only way to "be your own droid" is to become a bounty hunter.



Maybe not even then. IG-11 in The Mandalorian seemed beholden to a larger organisation (possibly of fellow droids) to the extent of having a self-destruct system he was obliged to engage in order to protect his proprietary design.

Which is the other thing about droids - they're frequently treated as entirely disposable.

I never like it when a fictional species is depicted as being servile by nature or design. @Celebrim mention House Elves earlier, which are also an uncomfortable example. Anything that points people to the idea that a sentient species can be seen as having an innate need to serve others is teaching a bad lesson. If we ever do get to make our own sentient 'droids', it'll be a bad day - a society based upon intrinsic servitude is unhealthy for both the servants and the served.


----------



## Celebrim

Ryujin said:


> And yet we frequently see droids being treated simply as property, in Star Wars. Probably one of its few recurring social commentaries.




Droids are property.  If they weren't property, no one would make them.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> @Celebrim mention House Elves earlier, which are also an uncomfortable example. Anything that points people to the idea that a sentient species can be seen as having an innate need to serve others is teaching a bad lesson. If we ever do get to make our own sentient 'droids', it'll be a bad day - a society based upon intrinsic servitude is unhealthy for both the servants and the served.




The house elves don't think so.  I think they think they got the better end of the deal.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> The house elves don't think so.  I think they think they got the better end of the deal.



And that message - sometimes making someone your servant is doing them a favour - is not a healthy lesson to impart to children.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> And that message - sometimes making someone your servant is doing them a favour - is not a healthy lesson to impart to children.




Only because house elves aren't real.

Besides which, that isn't even the message.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> Which is the other thing about droids - they're frequently treated as entirely disposable.
> 
> I never like it when a fictional species is depicted as being servile by nature or design. @Celebrim mention House Elves earlier, which are also an uncomfortable example. Anything that points people to the idea that a sentient species can be seen as having an innate need to serve others is teaching a bad lesson. If we ever do get to make our own sentient 'droids', it'll be a bad day - *a society based upon intrinsic servitude is unhealthy for both the servants and the served.*




So, basically how women in the real world have been treated for at least a couple thousand years, and only as recently as the 1970's started to change, depending on country and religion, or course.


----------



## pukunui

Luthen's ship is seriously tricked out. Were those giant lightsabers he used to cut up the last two TIEs?


----------



## Mallus

pukunui said:


> Luthen's ship is seriously tricked out. Were those giant lightsabers he used to cut up the last two TIEs?



And he handed Saw’s guard a lightsaber. I wonder if this is foreshadowing? 

(it’s funny how much of Luthen’s speech to the ISB mole also applies to being a Jedi, come to think...)


----------



## embee

Vael said:


> B2EMO is breaking my heart and I love Brasso being so empathic towards the droid. I find the status and sentience of Droids is one of the weirdest things about Star Wars, and a lot of things break if you look too closely at it, but I am a sucker for kindness towards droids.



Two things:

1) Joplin Sibtain's (Brasso) very restrained performance, like every other actor's performance in this show, was spot on. It truly is jazz. It's not the notes that are played; it's the notes that aren't played.

2) The biggest problem with _Solo_ is how close it came to actually addressing a huge moral quandary in _Star Wars_ and how, instead, it chose to go for cheap laughs. Droids are sentient. One of the immoralities of the Empire is that it routinely wipes droids' memories. Basically, they get lobotomized. But that's not to say that the "good guys" aren't morally blameless either. When Luke first meets Threepio and Artoo, he takes off their restraining bolts, not to free them, but because he figures that they won't run away. He very much regards them as property. The ugly truth is that droids in Star Wars are pretty close to being chattel slaves. And in _Solo_, when L337 tries to lead an uprising, it's pretty much a joke.

_Andor _has the people with whom we are supposed to empathize regard droids as people, not as property. 

B2EMO is amazingly human. Brasso is refreshingly humane.


----------



## Vael

embee said:


> 2) The biggest problem with _Solo_ is how close it came to actually addressing a huge moral quandary in _Star Wars_ and how, instead, it chose to go for cheap laughs. Droids are sentient. One of the immoralities of the Empire is that it routinely wipes droids' memories. Basically, they get lobotomized. But that's not to say that the "good guys" aren't morally blameless either. When Luke first meets Threepio and Artoo, he takes off their restraining bolts, not to free them, but because he figures that they won't run away. He very much regards them as property. The ugly truth is that droids in Star Wars are pretty close to being chattel slaves. And in _Solo_, when L337 tries to lead an uprising, it's pretty much a joke.




Precisely. It's one of those things that I just try not to look at too closely, because this is the conclusion I reach. And so _Solo _commits the double sin of both pointing out something that I'd sooner not and says "isn't this funny?", to which my answer is "no, that's horrifying". Then tripling down on it with the fate of L337.


----------



## embee

Vael said:


> Precisely. It's one of those things that I just try not to look at too closely, because this is the conclusion I reach. And so _Solo _commits the double sin of both pointing out something that I'd sooner not and says "isn't this funny?", to which my answer is "no, that's horrifying". Then tripling down on it with the fate of L337.



And then, you can go back and see just how horrifically he consistently treats Threepio in ESB. He regards Threepio with outright contempt and disdain in every scene, treating him as an appliance (go plug the Professor into the hyperdrive). 

Han Solo is pretty darned racist towards droids.


----------



## billd91

embee said:


> And then, you can go back and see just how horrifically he consistently treats Threepio in ESB. He regards Threepio with outright contempt and disdain in every scene, treating him as an appliance (go plug the Professor into the hyperdrive).
> 
> Han Solo is pretty darned racist towards droids.



Yeah, but Threepio is pretty darn racist towards Wookies. So, maybe what goes around...


----------



## Zardnaar

Star Wars Droids are property basically. 

How sentient they are is debatable (sentient vs clever programming?). 

 Old Legends material touched on it with droid rights groups, uprising etc.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

embee said:


> Han Solo is pretty darned racist towards droids.




Well, Luke and Obi-Wan did have to go find Han in a cantina that did not allow droids to come in, so.....


----------



## Zardnaar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Well, Luke and Obi-Wan did have to go find Han in a cantina that did not allow droids to come in, so.....




 That's because of the clone wars.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Did someone splice a toy commercial into the middle of this week's episode?


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> That's because of the clone wars.



Is it? I'm pretty sure nobody bothered battling over Tatooine in the Clone Wars. I'd guess they probably had that policy of not letting 'their kind' in all the way back to Episode I and earlier.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> Is it? I'm pretty sure nobody bothered battling over Tatooine in the Clone Wars. I'd guess they probably had that policy of not letting 'their kind' in all the way back to Episode I and earlier.




 Point that was a legends thing. 

  It's debatable how sentient Droids are due to programming. An assassin droid wants you dead well it's gonna try. 

  Did get touched on in legends Disney comic reliefed it


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Zardnaar said:


> Point that was a legends thing.




There was no Legends, or any other media, in existence when the original movie came out. We know a lot of what came after had not even been thought up yet by Lucas, let alone put down on paper, so has he ever said in any interviews from the time why droids were hated in some places?


----------



## Zardnaar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> There was no Legends, or any other media, in existence when the original movie came out. We know a lot of what came after had not even been thought up yet by Lucas, let alone put down on paper, so has he ever said in any interviews from the time why droids were hated in some places?




No idea and I never claimed otherwise so yeah. Disney hasn't really covered droid rights in their canon that much afaik.


----------



## trappedslider

I am disappointed that none of you made the joke "All in all, she's just another brick in the wall"


----------



## Nikosandros

trappedslider said:


> I am disappointed that none of you made the joke "All in all, she's just another brick in the wall"



Perhaps the posters in this thread have become comfortably numb?


----------



## trappedslider

well this is happening Exclusive: Mon Mothma Series In Development, Timeline Revealed


----------



## reelo

Celebrim said:


> It's a good bet the Empire now knows that there is a Fondor Haulcraft out there with a class 0.5 hyperdrive, advanced engines, side mounted lance projectors, advanced targeting software, and an experimental micro-missile array. The ISB has the resources to simply request all the records of all Fondor Haulcraft that have made hyperspace jumps in the last week, and then go investigate every single one of them. It's a big galaxy, but any number that isn't in the millions is perfectly doable for the Empire.
> And here I was hoping Luthen would survive the season.




Good thing they made a point of showing a nice spaceship scrapyard on Ferrix in the first arc of the show, right?


----------



## Dioltach

trappedslider said:


> well this is happening Exclusive: Mon Mothma Series In Development, Timeline Revealed



The author really did their research: "...the Mon Mothma series will cover some part of the time period between _A New Hope _and _Return of the Jedi_ and presumably lead up to her role in the Disney+ series _Andor_."


----------



## Celebrim

Zardnaar said:


> Star Wars Droids are property basically.
> 
> How sentient they are is debatable (sentient vs clever programming?).
> 
> Old Legends material touched on it with droid rights groups, uprising etc.




The problem with being the only sentient thing we have experience with is that we tend to treat sentience as a quality and not a quantity.  We also tend to think that with sentience automatically comes a whole host of other qualities that we only observe in that one thing (ourselves) and so assume that there is a tight correlation between say sentience and being self-willed or independent or between sentience and desiring the sort of things that humans think make a fulfilling life - acquiring stuff, acquiring mates, and dominating imposing our will on others. 

And naturally, being sentient apes, we make big shows of pounding the ground with our fists and hooting if we think someone is saying something that might threaten us or our station in the tribe, and likewise expect any sentient thing is going to do the same and have the same basic array of not only emotions but emotional displays and behaviors.

And I don't think that any of that is true.  To put it bluntly, both our notion of sentience equals personhood and that personhood equals humanity are flawed.  And this bothers me because we're getting close to making semi-sentient beings and at that point all that theoretical ignorance becomes potentially dangerous or immoral - like the well-meaning Hermoine Granger condescendingly trying to trick a being that she thinks (correctly as it turns out) is a person into receiving clothes for their own good because she thinks she knows better than they do what is good for them.   Because she's a wizard or something.

Rawlings treatment of interactions between widely divergent sentient beings is one of the best in fiction.  She's actually comfortable with the concept of alien.  I can't think of another author that has done it better, though Gordon R. Dickson's "The Alien Way" and Amy Thompson's "The Color of Distance" are both good, in some ways they reflect more human bias and make apes less uncomfortable than what Rawlings does.

The Star Wars droids are debatably sentient, but that's because they demonstrate a range of sentience, from being about as sentient as say your pets to being as sentient as you are.   But even more so, they show a range of emotional frameworks and independence of thought.  So you have a sentient like IG-11 that is almost incapable of independent thought, because someone probably quite rightly thought it was a bad idea to give a sentient killing machine a great degree of independence of thought.  I mean, why would you make that machine?  And humanities first instinct to that is to get offended and to also assume that almost the first thing that is going to happen and the most likely thing that is going to happen is that the machine is going to want to alter its programming so it can be more human.  Because, well, a human would in the same situation, so naturally a machine would as well.  But that is as fundamentally ridiculous as a machine being romantically and sexually attracted to a female human because well, isn't that how every sentient thing thinks?   Those assumptions are really just ape biases and ape insecurities being manifested.  

As I mentioned before, Data is clearly different in purpose and intent from most Star Wars droids.   It's a crime to not treat him as a person.  But it would be equally a crime to insist that Data act more human than he wants to.  Data as a conceit of the show wants to be more human, because well we narcissistic ape types just assume everyone would want to be more like us.  And that's fine, but if Data didn't want to be more human because he is a person it would be immoral to treat his wishes otherwise.  Just like it would be immoral to have a Gonk droid liberation front because we assume that they want to be independent and acquire possessions and mates.  One wonders what value people think R2-D2 or B2EMO could possibly derive in not be servile chattel?  Do anyone think think R2-D2 wants to acquire power and possessions?  Does anyone think the maker that made him created an emotional framework that was satisfied and thrilled to dominate over others?  That really wants to do anything other than be allowed to fix things that don't belong to him?  What pay could you possibly give R2-D2?  Do you think R2-D2 gets bored?  Why would you be so cruel as to design a droid to get bored and need to watch vicarious thrilling episodes of apes fighting and mating with one another to remain marginally emotionally stable?   R2-D2 is alien by design and by necessity.


----------



## Rabulias

Celebrim said:


> One wonders what value people think R2-D2 or B2EMO could possibly derive in not be servile chattel?  Do anyone think think R2-D2 wants to acquire power and possessions?  Does anyone think the maker that made him created an emotional framework that was satisfied and thrilled to dominate over others?



As an aside, there is the wonderfully entertaining webcomic _Darths & Droids _(Darths & Droids), which takes a humorous look at the Star Wars films as if they were played by a typical D&D group. R2-D2 in the strip is played by an optimizing powergamer, and it becomes  a running gag that R2 wants an impressive ship. Here is an example dialog from the end of their treatment of _The Phantom Menace_:


----------



## Celebrim

So, let's go ahead and stake out some intellectual territory and see if I can defend it.

The relationship of the Andor family to be B2EMO is probably the most abusive we've seen the relationship be outside of Jabba the Hutt's palace and is maybe more dysfunctional than the way Jawa's treat droids.

Fundamentally the reason for that is we've never seen a less happy droid.  B2EMO is the most insecure and emotionally pained droid we've ever encountered.  Every time we see him he's uncomfortable and needs comfort.  And fundamentally, that's because he's being abused in multiple ways.   Canonically - and yes I'm aware this makes no sense - B2EMO is supposed to be a salvage assistance droid.  Let's let aside that it's obvious that out of universe B2EMO was designed not as a rational salvage assistance droid, but to be emotionally evocative on screen.  Let's pretend he is a well-designed salvage assistance droid even though it's obvious he's not.  He's more of a panda/puppy designed to be cute.  

B2EMO has been abused in multiple ways.  First, B2EMO was initially forced to cooperate in illegal salvage operations, something that almost certainly caused him emotional distress since behaving immorally would have been against not only a general emotional framework for friendly droids, but would have been specifically against the emotional framework you'd want to give a salvage droid - don't take and cut up stuff that doesn't belong to you is something a salvage droid needs to understand to be functional salvage droid.  It's possible that B2EMO was professionally programmed to accommodate his new operating framework, but I don't think so.  I don't think the illegal operation was profitable enough for that.  So I think Keef and Maarva did their own programming, most likely through crude verbal commands, to get B2EMO to go along with this, but it clearly makes him uncomfortable to be in a criminal minded family but not have the emotional framework to accommodate that.  Quite rightly for a simple benevolent droid, he doesn't want to lie or steal or otherwise do the wrong thing.   But here he is.

After Keef and Maarva left the illegal salvage business, they lacked money for B2EMO's upkeep which led over time to B2EMO's physical body deterioration - something that clearly causes him pain and emotional distress.  Quite obviously, one of the moral preconditions of owning a droid is being responsible for the droid's upkeep.  They are trusting their owner to repair them and to treat them according to the owner's manual.  But lacking the wherewithal to do so, they don't sell B2EMO, but instead keep him in increasingly uncomfortable (for him) service.

Moreover, they repurpose B2EMO.  Instead of using him according to his primary function as a working companion of a laborer in a salvage yard, Cassian makes him a surrogate companion for his mother since he himself is not a very attentive son and also can't afford a new droid that could actually cope with this demand.  B2EMO the salvage droid becomes B2EMO the companion droid and B2EMO the domestic helper and errand runner, things that a salvage droid just would be ill-equipped to do.  Nonetheless, trying to be a loyal droid, B2EMO soldiers on trying to do his best to fulfill jobs he's not really capable of and which he wasn't programmed to find emotionally and intellectually fulfilling.  And he's mostly miserable the whole time.  And, he can't just memory wipe and do a factory reset even though his emotional framework is telling him he's going increasingly insane, because he has to retain all this information about being a domestic helper and emotional support companion he wasn't programmed with.   He knows that Maarva needs him as surrogate emotional support because Cassian is never around, so on he goes with all his insecurities, worries, and pain.

And we see the result - a droid in some of the worst emotional pain we've ever seen a droid in.  A purpose built companion droid would have built in the understanding and emotional framework to deal with the loss of their owner.  You would have never seen such a droid be in pain like that because why would you build a droid that way?  No, you'd build it to know it needed to support the humans around it in their time of loss and to be emotionally fulfilled by that and to count that as 'grieving in its own way'.  Why would you program a droid to suffer just because a human would?  That would be unethical and immoral and probably get your license to make AI revoked in any civilized universe.

Probably in his natural state B2EMO would be completely pain free right now, since the death was not the result of an error on his part on the salvage yard - concepts he'd understand.  He'd be just like, "Ok, who needs me now?  I want to work."   But having been ad hoc programmed for so long and having been used so far outside his intended purpose, he has no way of knowing whether Maarva's death is the result of his failure as a companion, no way to understand what happens next, and no way to access a blissful factory reset to restore his happiness. 

And into this comes one of my favorite characters on the show, the well-meaning and good hearted Brasso and he tries to comfort B2EMO like B2EMO is a human, with clearly absolutely no understanding of what is going on in B2EMO's head.  For example, he asks a droid that is programmed to work alongside a human, and who has been forced to be an emotional support companion (essentially a pet) for his owner for a decade if "he wants to be alone".  And B2EMO is of course going, "No!"  Brasso of course eventually does do the right thing for the droids emotional well-being, because he's a good guy, but still.   

B2EMO has been unintentionally abused nearly as severely as Dobby, Winky, or Kreacher.  One hopes Cassian grows morally enough to rectify this situation.  Or if not, let's hope Brasso actually uses the droid as a salvage yard companion, repairs the droid, and starts undoing the damage.


----------



## Celebrim

trappedslider said:


> well this is happening Exclusive: Mon Mothma Series In Development, Timeline Revealed




I have no problem with covering the events in between the movies, with Mon Mothma as the civilian head of government of the dissident Senate, but I do wonder if she could be the primary protagonist of such a series since most of what she is going during that period is paperwork .  I suppose you could make it as interesting as say a biopic of Winston Churchill in WW2, but you'd have to make her as charismatic of a speaker as Churchill and write all those speeches.    I think a better use for her would be roughly the sort of role she has in Andor or Rogue One, where she provides larger context to the boots on the ground missions, but the protagonists would be those boots on the ground.

In other words, I'm hoping this is really Star Wars: Pathfinders or Star Wars: Rogue Squadron in disguise.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Celebrim said:


> In other words, I'm hoping this is really Star Wars: Pathfinders or Star Wars: Rogue Squadron in disguise.




I'm hoping that they're rebooting the classic Britcom, _Yes, Minister_, but with Mon Mothma!


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> The problem with being the only sentient thing we have experience with is that we tend to treat sentience as a quality and not a quantity.  We also tend to think that with sentience automatically comes a whole host of other qualities that we only observe in that one thing (ourselves) and so assume that there is a tight correlation between say sentience and being self-willed or independent or between sentience and desiring the sort of things that humans think make a fulfilling life - acquiring stuff, acquiring mates, and dominating imposing our will on others.
> 
> And naturally, being sentient apes, we make big shows of pounding the ground with our fists and hooting if we think someone is saying something that might threaten us or our station in the tribe, and likewise expect any sentient thing is going to do the same and have the same basic array of not only emotions but emotional displays and behaviors.
> 
> And I don't think that any of that is true.  To put it bluntly, both our notion of sentience equals personhood and that personhood equals humanity are flawed.  And this bothers me because we're getting close to making semi-sentient beings and at that point all that theoretical ignorance becomes potentially dangerous or immoral - like the well-meaning Hermoine Granger condescendingly trying to trick a being that she thinks (correctly as it turns out) is a person into receiving clothes for their own good because she thinks she knows better than they do what is good for them.   Because she's a wizard or something.
> 
> Rawlings treatment of interactions between widely divergent sentient beings is one of the best in fiction.  She's actually comfortable with the concept of alien.  I can't think of another author that has done it better, though Gordon R. Dickson's "The Alien Way" and Amy Thompson's "The Color of Distance" are both good, in some ways they reflect more human bias and make apes less uncomfortable than what Rawlings does.
> 
> The Star Wars droids are debatably sentient, but that's because they demonstrate a range of sentience, from being about as sentient as say your pets to being as sentient as you are.   But even more so, they show a range of emotional frameworks and independence of thought.  So you have a sentient like IG-11 that is almost incapable of independent thought, because someone probably quite rightly thought it was a bad idea to give a sentient killing machine a great degree of independence of thought.  I mean, why would you make that machine?  And humanities first instinct to that is to get offended and to also assume that almost the first thing that is going to happen and the most likely thing that is going to happen is that the machine is going to want to alter its programming so it can be more human.  Because, well, a human would in the same situation, so naturally a machine would as well.  But that is as fundamentally ridiculous as a machine being romantically and sexually attracted to a female human because well, isn't that how every sentient thing thinks?   Those assumptions are really just ape biases and ape insecurities being manifested.
> 
> As I mentioned before, Data is clearly different in purpose and intent from most Star Wars droids.   It's a crime to not treat him as a person.  But it would be equally a crime to insist that Data act more human than he wants to.  Data as a conceit of the show wants to be more human, because well we narcissistic ape types just assume everyone would want to be more like us.  And that's fine, but if Data didn't want to be more human because he is a person it would be immoral to treat his wishes otherwise.  Just like it would be immoral to have a Gonk droid liberation front because we assume that they want to be independent and acquire possessions and mates.  One wonders what value people think R2-D2 or B2EMO could possibly derive in not be servile chattel?  Do anyone think think R2-D2 wants to acquire power and possessions?  Does anyone think the maker that made him created an emotional framework that was satisfied and thrilled to dominate over others?  That really wants to do anything other than be allowed to fix things that don't belong to him?  What pay could you possibly give R2-D2?  Do you think R2-D2 gets bored?  Why would you be so cruel as to design a droid to get bored and need to watch vicarious thrilling episodes of apes fighting and mating with one another to remain marginally emotionally stable?   R2-D2 is alien by design and by necessity.



While you have some valid points in there, the fact is that, as you stated, we currently _are_ the only sentient species in existence, and - like all science fiction - the aliens / robots / fantasy creatures in these fictional tales are ultimately there as stand-ins for ourselves. So the attitudes towards other sentients imparted in these tales are, perforce, representative of our values towards other humans.

This is basically the exact same issue that caused WotC to have to revise the flavour text for the Hadozee in the recent Spelljammer supplement. When you're describing a race of aliens essentially bred for servitude, you're ultimately reflecting concepts of ethnic groups of humans having been portrayed as such.

While it can be interesting to explore these other paradigms of sentience, works which are at least partially intended to be consumed by children during their formative years do not constitute a safe space in which to make those explorations.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> So, let's go ahead and stake out some intellectual territory and see if I can defend it.
> 
> The relationship of the Andor family to be B2EMO is probably the most abusive we've seen the relationship be outside of Jabba the Hutt's palace and is maybe more dysfunctional than the way Jawa's treat droids.
> 
> Fundamentally the reason for that is we've never seen a less happy droid.  B2EMO is the most insecure and emotionally pained droid we've ever encountered.  Every time we see him he's uncomfortable and needs comfort.  And fundamentally, that's because he's being abused in multiple ways.   Canonically - and yes I'm aware this makes no sense - B2EMO is supposed to be a salvage assistance droid.  Let's let aside that it's obvious that out of universe B2EMO was designed not as a rational salvage assistance droid, but to be emotionally evocative on screen.  Let's pretend he is a well-designed salvage assistance droid even though it's obvious he's not.  He's more of a panda/puppy designed to be cute.
> 
> B2EMO has been abused in multiple ways.  First, B2EMO was initially forced to cooperate in illegal salvage operations, something that almost certainly caused him emotional distress since behaving immorally would have been against not only a general emotional framework for friendly droids, but would have been specifically against the emotional framework you'd want to give a salvage droid - don't take and cut up stuff that doesn't belong to you is something a salvage droid needs to understand to be functional salvage droid.  It's possible that B2EMO was professionally programmed to accommodate his new operating framework, but I don't think so.  I don't think the illegal operation was profitable enough for that.  So I think Keef and Maarva did their own programming, most likely through crude verbal commands, to get B2EMO to go along with this, but it clearly makes him uncomfortable to be in a criminal minded family but not have the emotional framework to accommodate that.  Quite rightly for a simple benevolent droid, he doesn't want to lie or steal or otherwise do the wrong thing.   But here he is.
> 
> After Keef and Maarva left the illegal salvage business, they lacked money for B2EMO's upkeep which led over time to B2EMO's physical body deterioration - something that clearly causes him pain and emotional distress.  Quite obviously, one of the moral preconditions of owning a droid is being responsible for the droid's upkeep.  They are trusting their owner to repair them and to treat them according to the owner's manual.  But lacking the wherewithal to do so, they don't sell B2EMO, but instead keep him in increasingly uncomfortable (for him) service.
> 
> Moreover, they repurpose B2EMO.  Instead of using him according to his primary function as a working companion of a laborer in a salvage yard, Cassian makes him a surrogate companion for his mother since he himself is not a very attentive son and also can't afford a new droid that could actually cope with this demand.  B2EMO the salvage droid becomes B2EMO the companion droid and B2EMO the domestic helper and errand runner, things that a salvage droid just would be ill-equipped to do.  Nonetheless, trying to be a loyal droid, B2EMO soldiers on trying to do his best to fulfill jobs he's not really capable of and which he wasn't programmed to find emotionally and intellectually fulfilling.  And he's mostly miserable the whole time.  And, he can't just memory wipe and do a factory reset even though his emotional framework is telling him he's going increasingly insane, because he has to retain all this information about being a domestic helper and emotional support companion he wasn't programmed with.   He knows that Maarva needs him as surrogate emotional support because Cassian is never around, so on he goes with all his insecurities, worries, and pain.
> 
> And we see the result - a droid in some of the worst emotional pain we've ever seen a droid in.  A purpose built companion droid would have built in the understanding and emotional framework to deal with the loss of their owner.  You would have never seen such a droid be in pain like that because why would you build a droid that way?  No, you'd build it to know it needed to support the humans around it in their time of loss and to be emotionally fulfilled by that and to count that as 'grieving in its own way'.  Why would you program a droid to suffer just because a human would?  That would be unethical and immoral and probably get your license to make AI revoked in any civilized universe.
> 
> Probably in his natural state B2EMO would be completely pain free right now, since the death was not the result of an error on his part on the salvage yard - concepts he'd understand.  He'd be just like, "Ok, who needs me now?  I want to work."   But having been ad hoc programmed for so long and having been used so far outside his intended purpose, he has no way of knowing whether Maarva's death is the result of his failure as a companion, no way to understand what happens next, and no way to access a blissful factory reset to restore his happiness.
> 
> And into this comes one of my favorite characters on the show, the well-meaning and good hearted Brasso and he tries to comfort B2EMO like B2EMO is a human, with clearly absolutely no understanding of what is going on in B2EMO's head.  For example, he asks a droid that is programmed to work alongside a human, and who has been forced to be an emotional support companion (essentially a pet) for his owner for a decade if "he wants to be alone".  And B2EMO is of course going, "No!"  Brasso of course eventually does do the right thing for the droids emotional well-being, because he's a good guy, but still.
> 
> B2EMO has been unintentionally abused nearly as severely as Dobby, Winky, or Kreacher.  One hopes Cassian grows morally enough to rectify this situation.  Or if not, let's hope Brasso actually uses the droid as a salvage yard companion, repairs the droid, and starts undoing the damage.



One particularly painful moment is early on, when Cassian asks B2 to craft a lie. This droid is so fundamentally honest in nature that he has to carefully craft a falsehood in order to be able to deliver it. It's almost that he has to overwrite his own memory. And it's an exhausting task for him - literally, it costs him a great deal of power, requiring him to recharge early.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> While you have some valid points in there, the fact is that, as you stated, we currently _are_ the only sentient species in existence...




With you so far.



> and - like all science fiction - the aliens / robots / fantasy creatures in these fictional tales are ultimately there as stand-ins for ourselves.




No.  Absolutely not.  I disagree strongly.  That is the exact opposite of the case.  All those alien things are stand ins for The Other, and the Not Sefl, which we have to imagine since we have no cases of.  They are an attempt to create a mirror in which we can see ourselves, but the mirror is not us ourselves, but the means of comparison to ourselves.  We imagine things that are not us to give contrast and comparison that we would not otherwise have.  We know that from a vantage point inside ourselves it is almost impossible to see ourselves and what might make us distinctive and different and well, essentially ourselves.  We know it's almost impossible to learn anything from a set with one member.  So we need to try to imagine the not self, that is to say the ways a sentient being might be that are not us, so that we can actually study ourselves.



> So the attitudes towards other sentients imparted in these tales are, perforce, representative of our values towards other humans.




No, absolutely not!  Or at the very least, I can say speaking for myself as an author, that is not at all my intent and you are completely missing what I'm trying to communicate if that's your take on it, and I feel pretty certain that you are also missing the intent and the purpose of a good portion of science fiction authors if you read the text that way.  



> This is basically the exact same issue that caused WotC to have to revise the flavour text for the Hadozee in the recent Spelljammer supplement. When you're describing a race of aliens essentially bred for servitude, you're ultimately reflecting concepts of ethnic groups of humans having been portrayed as such.




No, that's a completely different issue.  The problem with the Hadozee was not that they were a race bred for servitude.  The problem with the Hadozee was that reading a race bred for servitude, the authors and content creators failed in imagination, creativity, and empathy and immediately made a deliberate analogy to a real human race that had historically been subject to unwilling servitude and abuse.  The problem was not in the concept of the alien, but that they failed to actually make it alien and instead relied on familiar, simplistic, easy, and offensive tropes and markers.  That is not the same thing.



> While it can be interesting to explore these other paradigms of sentience, works which are at least partially intended to be consumed by children during their formative years do not constitute a safe space in which to make those explorations.




My children or grandchildren may grow up in a world of semi-sentient droids.  Giving them proper context for how to treat a droid with kindness, empathy and understanding is precisely my responsibility.


----------



## Zardnaar

Problem with Star Wars Droids is are they really free willed? They're intelligent but they can be programmed and assassin droids exist. 

 So they kind of get treated as pets but some are somewhat intelligent AR-15 rifles with assassin programming. 

 After the clone wars with the Droid armies makes sense that they're not allowed into cantinas. 

  So is R2 sentient or just very clever programming faking it? R2 make be fully sentient due to lack of memory wipe but there won't be to many droids like that I would imagine.

 Even then he can be reprogrammed.


----------



## phuong

Celebrim said:


> My children or grandchildren may grow up in a world of semi-sentient droids.  Giving them proper context for how to treat a droid with kindness, empathy and understanding is precisely my responsibility.



Please leave the show alone, it is not for you, it is for grown ups.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> No.  Absolutely not.  I disagree strongly.  That is the exact opposite of the case.  All those alien things are stand ins for The Other, and the Not Sefl, which we have to imagine since we have no cases of.  They are an attempt to create a mirror in which we can see ourselves, but the mirror is not us ourselves, but the means of comparison to ourselves.  We imagine things that are not us to give contrast and comparison that we would not otherwise have.  We know that from a vantage point inside ourselves it is almost impossible to see ourselves and what might make us distinctive and different and well, essentially ourselves.  We know it's almost impossible to learn anything from a set with one member.  So we need to try to imagine the not self, that is to say the ways a sentient being might be that are not us, so that we can actually study ourselves.



That feels like a softer distinction than you think it is. And the droids in Star Wars, especially Threepio and Artoo, are frequently specifically there as audience stand-ins, sympathetic observers through which we can see the story. They are absolutely not the Other.


Celebrim said:


> No, absolutely not!  Or at the very least, I can say speaking for myself as an author, that is not at all my intent and you are completely missing what I'm trying to communicate if that's your take on it, and I feel pretty certain that you are also missing the intent and the purpose of a good portion of science fiction authors if you read the text that way.



There are presently no other sentient beings that we can relate to. When we examine how we would relate to non-human sentience, we are examining our own attitudes and how we treat others. And that is only of value if we are, in the process, examining how we treat other humans, because, again, there are no other sentients that we are aware of.


Celebrim said:


> No, that's a completely different issue.  The problem with the Hadozee was not that they were a race bred for servitude.  The problem with the Hadozee was that reading a race bred for servitude, the authors and content creators failed in imagination, creativity, and empathy and immediately made a deliberate analogy to a real human race that had historically been subject to unwilling servitude and abuse.  The problem was not in the concept of the alien, but that they failed to actually make it alien and instead relied on familiar, simplistic, easy, and offensive tropes and markers.  That is not the same thing.



It is, because you can't make a species alien that is intended to be played by human beings. Ultimately, any playable character is an expression of ourselves.


Celebrim said:


> My children or grandchildren may grow up in a world of semi-sentient droids.  Giving them proper context for how to treat a droid with kindness, empathy and understanding is precisely my responsibility.



Nothing that's currently been portrayed in science fiction or fantasy comes close to what those beings will actually be like. We really have frighteningly little context for knowing what a being with high intelligence but which lacks any of our atavistic evolved behaviours, weird brain chemistry or ingrained social programming will actually look like, or how we can or should interact with it.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Zardnaar said:


> So is R2 sentient or just very clever programming faking it? R2 make be fully sentient due to lack of memory wipe but there won't be to many droids like that I would imagine.




So are you saying a human suffering from amnesia or memory loss due to illness is less human/sentient because they are missing their memories?


----------



## Celebrim

phuong said:


> Please leave the show alone, it is not for you, it is for grown ups.




I don't understand how this is a response to anything I said.


----------



## Zardnaar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> So are you saying a human suffering from amnesia or memory loss due to illness is less human/sentient because they are missing their memories?




No because humans can't be reprogrammed as such. 

 Someone could theoretically capture R2, memory wipe him easily (not really possible with a human) install assassin droid programming and send R2 after Luke. 

  Data by comparison is fully sentient. Star Wars Droids are still limited by their programming so argueably lack true free will.

 If your PC could talk to you is it sentient?


----------



## Ryujin

Zardnaar said:


> No because humans can't be reprogrammed as such.
> 
> Someone could theoretically capture R2, memory wipe him easily (not really possible with a human) install assassin droid programming and send R2 after Luke.
> 
> Data by comparison is fully sentient. Star Wars Droids are still limited by their programming so argueably lack true free will.
> 
> If your PC could talk to you is it sentient?



Even Data was "reprogrammed" a couple of times.


----------



## phuong

Celebrim said:


> I don't understand how this is a response to anything I said.



it is a childish fantasy to suggest we will write computer code that magically makes our computers sentient.
your essay on how droids need to have rights is childish and the show is not for children, it is for adults, stick with star trek and mainstream disney, that was designed for you.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> No because humans can't be reprogrammed as such.
> 
> Someone could theoretically capture R2, memory wipe him easily (not really possible with a human) install assassin droid programming and send R2 after Luke.
> 
> Data by comparison is fully sentient. Star Wars Droids are still limited by their programming so argueably lack true free will.
> 
> If your PC could talk to you is it sentient?



How about the Doctor from Voyager? He very much can be reprogrammed, have his behaviour overridden, even have his memory wiped - there are episodes in which those things happen. But he's also a fully-realised person who campaigns for and ultimately achieves a degree of equal standing with the other Voyager crewmembers.


----------



## Dioltach

How about we steer away from the discussion about AI and droid rights before we get this thread closed? Start a new thread if necessary. Or leave the discussion until after we get the final episode next week.

(And I can't believe no-one has brought up Red Dwarf in the discussion about AI.)


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> That feels like a softer distinction than you think it is.




I don't see how.



> And the droids in Star Wars, especially Threepio and Artoo, are frequently specifically there as audience stand-ins, sympathetic observers through which we can see the story. They are absolutely not the Other.




Well, they are certainly not human.  And I don't see them as a stand-in for myself when I'm watching the movie.



> There are presently no other sentient beings that we can relate to.




That was part of my point.



> When we examine how we would relate to non-human sentience, we are examining our own attitudes and how we treat others.




That was part of my point as well.



> And that is only of value if we are, in the process, examining how we treat other humans, because, again, there are no other sentients that we are aware of.




I don't think that follows.  First, because examining what we would do in a hypothetical situation is a major portion of play.  Science fiction is about a yearning for the future, where we make intellectual play of things that might be, like what it would be like to have AI or to meet aliens.  And I think that is valuable play, because you can see how that play over time has made people more thoughtful and open minded, less likely to act by instinctive or emotional reflex, which will be valuable when and if these hypothetical events come about.  More to the point though, the act of examining how we might relate to non-humans does not in itself preclude the other purpose, using that as a spring board for self-reflection about ourselves using comparison and contrast.  If the justification for treating a non-human some way is the contrast with humans, then it can't be true that that is the justification for treating a human that way.  

But when I'm examining how I ought to properly treat a Vulcan, an Andorran, a protocol droid, or a parasitical xenomorph I am most certainly not claiming that in doing so I'm making an analogy for how I treat other humans!  Each should be treated differently. It would be better to not have any non-human thing or to imagine any non-human thing than to imagine a non-human thing and suggest that's how you should treat a human!



> It is, because you can't make a species alien that is intended to be played by human beings. Ultimately, any playable character is an expression of ourselves.




That's not as strong of a statement as you think it is.  This isn't a categorical truth.  This is truth by degree.  While I agree that we can never fully imagine the alien and as such every imagined alien is in someway not fully alien but an expression of our humanity, that doesn't mean that the human imagination is so paltry that we are unable to role-play something that isn't fully ourself.  While any playable character is in some sense an expression of the player, that doesn't mean that player character is necessarily the player!  It's quite possible that PC's have personality beliefs actions and logical/ethical/emotional frameworks quite at odds with the player.



> Nothing that's currently been portrayed in science fiction or fantasy comes close to what those beings will actually be like. We really have frighteningly little context for knowing what a being with high intelligence but which lacks any of our atavistic evolved behaviours, weird brain chemistry or ingrained social programming will actually look like, or how we can or should interact with it.




This is an argument for engaging in this sort of imaginative play; not an argument against it.  All the more reason to explore the concepts.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> How about the Doctor from Voyager? He very much can be reprogrammed, have his behaviour overridden, even have his memory wiped - there are episodes in which those things happen. But he's also a fully-realised person who campaigns for and ultimately achieves a degree of equal standing with the other Voyager crewmembers.




 Couldn't make it through season 1 of voyager watched maybe 6-8 episodes. 

  If AI can be reprogrammed its logical that others won't trust them eg the Cantina. 

 Star Wars Droids are somewhere between property and pets at least depicted onscreen. 

 The old Legends materials did go into things like droid rights, sentient Droids and an assassin droid that broke her own programming. 

 A droid that can and has broken their programming in Star Wars is essentially free willed.


----------



## Celebrim

Dioltach said:


> How about we steer away from the discussion about AI and droid rights before we get this thread closed?




What board rules am I breaking or in danger of breaking?


----------



## Zardnaar

Dioltach said:


> How about we steer away from the discussion about AI and droid rights before we get this thread closed? Start a new thread if necessary. Or leave the discussion until after we get the final episode next week.
> 
> (And I can't believe no-one has brought up Red Dwarf in the discussion about AI.)




 Are you a mod? No.


----------



## Celebrim

phuong said:


> it is a childish fantasy to suggest we will write computer code that magically makes our computers sentient.




There isn't going to be any magic about it.  Sooner or later we'll have computers that pass the Turing Test on a wide variety of fronts and then we're going to have to deal with what that means and what we think about it as a species.  It's a topic requiring the utmost maturity and wisdom.



> your essay on how droids need to have rights is childish..




I don't think so.  I don't think it would be childish to suggest animals, though they are not persons, have rights although they are not perhaps the rights of a person.  I don't see therefore how it is childish to suggest that something which has even more of the qualities of the person has at least as much need for rights, abliet not necessarily exactly the same ones as either a person or an animal (as it is not necessarily either of those things).  And this is a major topic of a lot of very non-childish Science Fiction, including I think this Andor show.  I could give an extensive reading list.  So I'm not following your argument.



> and the show is not for children, it is for adults, stick with star trek and mainstream disney, that was designed for you.




I don't think I've suggested that Andor is a show for children, and I am probably one of Andor's biggest fans and evangelists.  I do think I'm the sort of fan it was designed for.  I don't understand the basis of your claim.


----------



## Zaukrie

Dioltach said:


> How about we steer away from the discussion about AI and droid rights before we get this thread closed? Start a new thread if necessary. Or leave the discussion until after we get the final episode next week.
> 
> (And I can't believe no-one has brought up Red Dwarf in the discussion about AI.)



That would be great! Good luck.

Another great episode. I loved the tractor beam idea!


----------



## Ryujin

Zaukrie said:


> That would be great! Good luck.
> 
> Another great episode. I loved the tractor beam idea!



Seems rather odd that no one had thought of "shotgun blast to the tractor assembly" before, nor since.


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> Seems rather odd that no one had thought of "shotgun blast to the tractor assembly" before, nor since.



That ship design was pretty unique - in most cases the tractor beam emitters aren't so obvious, or they're mounted on well-shielded capital ships that would shrug off a blast of shrapnel. That ship was, like, at least 30% tractor beam.

And Luthen isn't the first person to think of targeting the dish.


----------



## Zaukrie

Ryujin said:


> Seems rather odd that no one had thought of "shotgun blast to the tractor assembly" before, nor since.



The first time people think of obviously good ideas always seems like a head slapper. It was entertaining, that's what mostly matters to me.


----------



## Celebrim

Ryujin said:


> Seems rather odd that no one had thought of "shotgun blast to the tractor assembly" before, nor since.




The tactic Luthen uses turns up in the Legends canon.  Luke Skywalker does something similar to escape a trap laid by Thrawn.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> The tactic Luthen uses turns up in the Legends canon.  Luke Skywalker does something similar to escape a trap laid by Thrawn.



And there are other workarounds. In Rebels, the Ghost is capable of jamming tractor beam emitters.


----------



## Zardnaar

Ryujin said:


> Seems rather odd that no one had thought of "shotgun blast to the tractor assembly" before, nor since.




 1991 or 92 Luke did it in Legends


----------



## Ryujin

Just for the record, I have read absolutely zero of the Extended Universe stuff.


----------



## Zardnaar

Ryujin said:


> Just for the record, I have read absolutely zero of the Extended Universe stuff.




 Understandable main point was it's been done before. 

  I don't mind them mining Legends or Easter egging it. 

 It's painful when they don't learn the lessons of Legends though and repeat the same mistakes. 
 Andors pretty good though along with Rogue One. Generally Disney has done a decent job with Droids as well.


----------



## pukunui

Celebrim said:


> What board rules am I breaking or in danger of breaking?



I don't think you were breaking any rules. More just that the mods tend to close down threads when they turn into circular arguments between the same two or three posters.



MarkB said:


> That ship design was pretty unique - in most cases the tractor beam emitters aren't so obvious, or they're mounted on well-shielded capital ships that would shrug off a blast of shrapnel. That ship was, like, at least 30% tractor beam.



Yeah, that Imperial cruiser was an interesting design. At first glance, I thought it was more like an AWACS plane:






With the dishes being listening devices rather than tractor beam emitters.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> Yeah, that Imperial cruiser was an interesting design




I was very much hoping it would fit into the small capital ship space that is so poorly explored in Star Wars, where everything seems to be 30m or less or 1000m or more.   After all, you would build anti-piracy/anti-smuggling patrol ships to be cost effective, right?  So you could build lots of them?  I mean, you'd only need them to be big enough to daunt the average pirate or smuggler.  

But no, crew of 2000+.  Utterly ridiculous size for its weapons load out.  And for some reason, carries two full wings of tie-fighters which are specialized interceptor/escort craft that while they are serviceable against other snub fighters, really lack the firepower to seriously hamper larger vessels of the sort pirates would operate. and aren't useful for boarding actions.   So it's this weird light carrier/customs patrol craft hybrid that is uber-expensive to operate compared to what you get.

Yet another thing I'll have to massage to fit it into my D6 game.   I think I'll shrink it down to 200m and give it a crew complement of about 200, and make it a tender for smaller patrol craft like the Guardian class.


----------



## Zardnaar

Celebrim said:


> I was very much hoping it would fit into the small capital ship space that is so poorly explored in Star Wars, where everything seems to be 30m or less or 1000m or more.   After all, you would build anti-piracy/anti-smuggling patrol ships to be cost effective, right?  So you could build lots of them?  I mean, you'd only need them to be big enough to daunt the average pirate or smuggler.
> 
> But no, crew of 2000+.  Utterly ridiculous size for its weapons load out.  And for some reason, carries two full wings of tie-fighters which are specialized interceptor/escort craft that while they are serviceable against other snub fighters, really lack the firepower to seriously hamper larger vessels of the sort pirates would operate. and aren't useful for boarding actions.   So it's this weird light carrier/customs patrol craft hybrid that is uber-expensive to operate compared to what you get.
> 
> Yet another thing I'll have to massage to fit it into my D6 game.   I think I'll shrink it down to 200m and give it a crew complement of about 200, and make it a tender for smaller patrol craft like the Guardian class.




 Thought I was one of the last D6 loyalists lol. 

 The ship was in Solo movie on one of the backgrounds in the navy posters.






						Andor Episode 11: The Arrestor Cruiser's Star Wars History
					

"Daughter of Ferrix" put a spotlight on a little-seen, but long-lived classic Star Wars ship design.




					gizmodo.com
				




 It's probably a cheap/crappy interdictor or even a precursor as the Interdictor covers the gravity wells.


----------



## embee

Zardnaar said:


> So is R2 sentient or just very clever programming faking it? R2 make be fully sentient due to lack of memory wipe but there won't be to many droids like that I would imagine.



Hence the inherent immorality of essentially lobotomizing a sentient being against its will. That was the central conceit of Threepio's (neutered) sacrifice - that having his memory wiped would erase his humanity. 

Q: Would Threepio's sacrifice mean anything if wasn't sentient?


----------



## embee

MarkB said:


> While it can be interesting to explore these other paradigms of sentience, works which are at least partially intended to be consumed by children during their formative years do not constitute a safe space in which to make those explorations.







I strongly disagree.


----------



## Zardnaar

embee said:


> Hence the inherent immorality of essentially lobotomizing a sentient being against its will. That was the central conceit of Threepio's (neutered) sacrifice - that having his memory wiped would erase his humanity.
> 
> Q: Would Threepio's sacrifice mean anything if wasn't sentient?




 Is C3-PO actually sentient though? 

 On Endor it was against his programming to impersonate a deity. Ergo how much free will does he actually have?

 Here's the problem treating Star Wars droids as organics. Parody but you'll see the point. Assume Palapatine went in a different direction. 

 Galactic News Network. It has been a year since Chancellor Palpatine introduced the droids voting rights act granting citizenship rights to droids. We are here to interview V1-TE on their opinion of the Trade federation-Techno Union merger. 

V1-TE "Vote Palapatine". 

 Reporter "That's great V1. VK-47 what's your opinion"?

VK-47 "Palpatine is my favorite meatbag".

 "And B1-V2 what's your opinion"?
B1-V2 "We love Palpatine Roger Roger". 

 GNN: "Breaking news the Senate has just announced a 5% tax raise. The money has  earmarked for 1 trillion new V0-TE droids. GNN welcomes our new citizens.

 Even in old Legends which dif explore droid sentience there's a species of sentient Droids (not manufactured by Republic/Empire,) experimental models (IG series, Guri) and R2 (debateable) that actually have free well. Those models are similar to Data from Trek  cutting ng edge prototypes. 

C3-PO argueably is an intelligent walking Google translate machine.


----------



## Ryujin

Zardnaar said:


> Is C3-PO actually sentient though?
> 
> On Endor it was against his programming to impersonate a deity. Ergo how much free will does he actually have?
> 
> Here's the problem treating Star Wars droids as organics. Parody but you'll see the point. Assume Palapatine went in a different direction.
> 
> Galactic News Network. It has been a year since Chancellor Palpatine introduced the droids voting rights act granting citizenship rights to droids. We are here to interview V1-TE on their opinion of the Trade federation-Techno Union merger.
> 
> V1-TE "Vote Palapatine".
> 
> Reporter "That's great V1. VK-47 what's your opinion"?
> 
> VK-47 "Palpatine is my favorite meatbag".
> 
> "And B1-V2 what's your opinion"?
> B1-V2 "We love Palpatine Roger Roger".
> 
> GNN: "Breaking news the Senate has just announced a 5% tax raise. The money has  earmarked for 1 trillion new V0-TE droids. GNN welcomes our new citizens.
> 
> Even in old Legends which dif explore droid sentience there's a species of sentient Droids (not manufactured by Republic/Empire,) experimental models (IG series, Guri) and R2 that actually have free well.
> 
> C3-PO argueably is an intelligent walking Google translate.



In response I would ask, "Are you sentient?" How would you prove it to an entity other than yourself? If it walks/rolls/flies, talks/communicates, emotes, appears to be concious of itself, then it's likely best to treat it as if it is sentient.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Is C3-PO actually sentient though?
> 
> On Endor it was against his programming to impersonate a deity. Ergo how much free will does he actually have?



It was also against his programming to get into an escape pod at the start of Episode IV. He still did it, though.

And does having constraints upon the actions you're allowed to take really have a bearing on sentience? He's able to consider the possiblity of impersonating a deity. It's just acting upon it that's not allowed.


----------



## embee

Zardnaar said:


> On Endor it was against his programming to impersonate a deity. Ergo how much free will does he actually have?



How literally should we interpret that? Do we interpret that in a Three Laws sense that he is actually incapable of doing it? Or is it the droid equivalent of law and/or morality with "programming" being a word choice by the screenwriter to imply a form of droid morality?

If the former, then Threepio lacks free will. Virtue comes from the choice to act in a set manner, not from the mere performance of that act. And if Threepio lacks free will and is just cleverly executing subroutines, then does his "sacrifice" in ROTS contain any virtue? In that case, no. It's a mere performative act that is the product of his programming. 

If the latter, then Threepio's protestation in ROTJ is rooted in principle, not literal programming. It's not that he is physically incapable of doing but rather that he has concluded that doing so is wrong and "it's against my programming" is droid-speak for such. From this interpretation, Threepio's ROTS "sacrifice" gets meaning because he is actively choosing to give up his existence. 

As to your droid suffrage hypothetical, it presumes that all droids are equally programmed. Is a mouse droid interchangeable with Artoo? Both are droids. One could ask whether a gibbon interchangeable with you? After all, you are both apes.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> It was also against his programming to get into an escape pod at the start of Episode IV. He still did it, though.
> 
> And does having constraints upon the actions you're allowed to take really have a bearing on sentience? He's able to consider the possiblity of impersonating a deity. It's just acting upon it that's not allowed.




 Is it against  his programming to get into the pod or it just doesn't conflict with his core programming? 

  R2 is sentient imho. C3-PO maybe. It's borderline me for some of the smarter droids like C3-PO. R2 doesn't seem to be restrained by programming anymore, C3-PO still is. 

 I don't have definitive answer, Disney hasn't addressed it afaik Legends did have sentient Droids.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> It was also against his programming to get into an escape pod at the start of Episode IV. He still did it, though.
> 
> And does having constraints upon the actions you're allowed to take really have a bearing on sentience? He's able to consider the possiblity of impersonating a deity. It's just acting upon it that's not allowed.




 He doesn't have true free will. He's essentially very clever programming. 

 R2, Skynet, Data have genuine free will imho. It's one of the oldest tropes in sci fi if done well I think it's still isn't played out.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Is it against  his programming to get into the pod or it just doesn't conflict with his core programming?
> 
> R2 is sentient imho. C3-PO maybe. It's borderline me for some of the smarter droids like C3-PO. R2 doesn't seem to be restrained by programming anymore, C3-PO still is.
> 
> I don't have definitive answer, Disney hasn't addressed it afaik Legends did have sentient Droids.



I'll put it this way: I don't think George Lucas, or any of the subsequent movie writers, draw any distinction between Artoo's sentience and Threepio's. For us to do so is to impose a construct upon that setting that is not intrinsic to it.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> I'll put it this way: I don't think George Lucas, or any of the subsequent movie writers, draw any distinction between Artoo's sentience and Threepio's. For us to do so is to impose a construct upon that setting that is not intrinsic to it.




No it's not a core part of the story although it could be done. 

 But just with what we see onscreen R2 has more agency than C3. 

 If you think about it hard enough though if droids are sentient SW has a problem.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> If you think about it hard enough though if droids are sentient SW has a problem.



I mean, yeah, I stated that as my position several pages ago.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Zardnaar said:


> Is it against  his programming to get into the pod or it just doesn't conflict with his core programming?
> 
> R2 is sentient imho. C3-PO maybe. It's borderline me for some of the smarter droids like C3-PO. R2 doesn't seem to be restrained by programming anymore, C3-PO still is.
> 
> I don't have definitive answer, Disney hasn't addressed it afaik Legends did have sentient Droids.




Chopper in Rebels is another droid that seems very self-aware and capable of things we restrict to sentient beings. Some of that is just there to be cute for the kids watching, but not all of it. It will be interesting to see how his live-action version plays out.


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Chopper in Rebels is another droid that seems very self-aware and capable of things we restrict to sentient beings. Some of that is just there to be cute for the kids watching, but not all of it. It will be interesting to see how his live-action version plays out.



Are we getting a live action version of Chopper?


----------



## MarkB

I think the sentient droids in Star Wars are a problem, and I think it's actually addressed, just not overtly.

I always wondered why the Republic and the Jedi so casually accepted the idea of using cloned humans as a slave army at the start of the Separatist conflict, despite there being laws against slavery within the Republic. I got that it was a desperate time that maybe called for desperate measures, but in most sources it's not even brought up as a point of contention - everyone just goes along with it.

I never really made the connection before, but perhaps the universal pervasiveness of droids had simply made that entire culture predisposed towards accepting the concept of a slave race, to the point that, with only the tiniest of spin, it slipped past any moral objections and became the norm. A lesson in the dangers of becoming comfortable with even artificial subservience.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> Are we getting a live action version of Chopper?




Rumors for Ahsoka series. Will be with Sabine.


----------



## Zardnaar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Chopper in Rebels is another droid that seems very self-aware and capable of things we restrict to sentient beings. Some of that is just there to be cute for the kids watching, but not all of it. It will be interesting to see how his live-action version plays out.




 Yeah chopper and the droids from Solo and Rogue One come to mind. 

 Disney droids in general I like in terms of personality R2, Chopper and HK47 probably my favorite droids. That and Darth Chuckles.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Rumors for Ahsoka series. Will be with Sabine.



That would be nice, but hopefully only on assignment. The only way he'd be with Sabine full-time is if something had happened to Hera.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Disney droids in general I like in terms of personality R2, Chopper and HK47 probably my favorite droids. That and Darth Chuckles.



They did a good job with BB-8, and Poe always treats him as a best friend rather than a subordinate.


----------



## Rabulias

pukunui said:


> Are we getting a live action version of Chopper?



We already have had a "blink-and-you'll-miss-it" Chopper cameo in _Rogue One_.


MarkB said:


> That would be nice, but hopefully only on assignment. The only way he'd be with Sabine full-time is if something had happened to Hera.





Spoiler



Rumor has it we will see Hera in the _Ahsoka _series as well.


----------



## pukunui

Rabulias said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Rumor has it we will see Hera in the _Ahsoka _series as well.



That would be cool. They're getting better at depicting aliens in live action.

I also love _Rebels _(I'm currently halfway through binge rewatching it) and am pretty excited that the _Ahsoka _series appears to be shaping up to be a live action follow-up to the cartoon.


----------



## Older Beholder

One thing I didn't get...

When Andor and the other prisoner get caught by the two aliens after getting to the top of the cliff... I didn't really catch what they said that convinced them to be let go so quickly. Anyone pick that up?


----------



## Zardnaar

pukunui said:


> That would be cool. They're getting better at depicting aliens in live action.
> 
> I also love _Rebels _(I'm currently halfway through binge rewatching it) and am pretty excited that the _Ahsoka _series appears to be shaping up to be a live action follow-up to the cartoon.




 Yeah it's basically what I want as well. 

 I thought rebels was really good. Hence disappoinment in the ST. They started off so well. 

 Ahsokas story arch has been well supported since 2008.


----------



## Davies

Older Beholder said:


> When Andor and the other prisoner get caught by the two aliens after getting to the top of the cliff... I didn't really catch what they said that convinced them to be let go so quickly. Anyone pick that up?



It wasn't really anything that they said that convinced them to do so. The aliens were fisherfolk who were understandably upset that the prison factory had killed much of the fish in the waters around it. As such, they were never going to turn anybody over to the prison that they hate so much, but weren't above amusing themselves by scaring the escapees a bit.


----------



## Ryujin

Older Beholder said:


> One thing I didn't get...
> 
> When Andor and the other prisoner get caught by the two aliens after getting to the top of the cliff... I didn't really catch what they said that convinced them to be let go so quickly. Anyone pick that up?



The upshot is, "The prisons are destroying our water, so screw them."


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

MarkB said:


> That would be nice, but hopefully only on assignment. The only way he'd be with Sabine full-time is if something had happened to Hera.




I worry about what has happened with Hera, with Kanan dying. But the Ghost was part of the Rebel fleet at the end of Rogue One, and like Rabulias said, supposedly Chopper was in a long-distance shot, rolling across the tarmac at the Rebel base. It is possible that Hera and the Ghost did not survive the war, which is why it is just Sabine, and hopefully Chopper, showing up.

Edit: Okay, should have googled sooner. Hera, Sabine and Chopper were all confirmed to appear way back in May. I don't know how I missed all the stories online.  lol


----------



## pukunui

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> and like Rabulias said, supposedly Chopper was in a long-distance shot, rolling across the tarmac at the Rebel base.



Not the shot from the movie but: 



Older Beholder said:


> One thing I didn't get...
> 
> When Andor and the other prisoner get caught by the two aliens after getting to the top of the cliff... I didn't really catch what they said that convinced them to be let go so quickly. Anyone pick that up?



It was really hard to understand them. I had to rewatch that part with subtitles on. Apparently they are the native Narkinians.


----------



## Davies

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I worry about what has happened with Hera, with Kanan dying.



Hera has shown up in recent Marvel Star Wars comics, and seemed to be doing okay. 



Spoiler



She's present when the news about the construction of the second Death Star is brought in, along with Ackbar and Mon Mothma.


 So she at least survives up until _Jedi_, and they _probably_ won't have her die "off-stage".


----------



## Zardnaar

Hera, San be, Ahsoka stole the show lol. Liked all of the Ghosts crew although Janus was probably the one I liked least but he's more 7.5/10 vs 9/10 sorta.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Star Wars Celebration from back in May. Chopper rolls out at about the 4 minute mark.


----------



## Older Beholder

pukunui said:


> Not the shot from the movie but:
> 
> 
> It was really hard to understand them. I had to rewatch that part with subtitles on. Apparently they are the native Narkinians.




I always watch everything with subs on (I used to live under a flight path and just got used to doing it that way so as to not miss anything) but I still missed what happened. I assumed Andor convinced them that he was also against the empire, it just all seemed to happen pretty quickly. 
I'll watch it again at some point I'm sure, I was just wondering if anyone else picked it up.


----------



## pukunui

Older Beholder said:


> I always watch everything with subs on (I used to live under a flight path and just got used to doing it that way so as to not miss anything) but I still missed what happened. I assumed Andor convinced them that he was also against the empire, it just all seemed to happen pretty quickly.
> I'll watch it again at some point I'm sure, I was just wondering if anyone else picked it up.



As others have said, there really wasn't much to it. They convince the Narkinians that they're not Imperials just escaped prisoners. The Narkinians hate how the Imperials have degraded the environment. The talkative Narkinian asks them where they're going to go, Cassian indicates they'll go back to the pleasure world, and then the Narkinians let them take their quadjumper.


----------



## Older Beholder

Davies said:


> It wasn't really anything that they said that convinced them to do so. The aliens were fisherfolk who were understandably upset that the prison factory had killed much of the fish in the waters around it. As such, they were never going to turn anybody over to the prison that they hate so much, but weren't above amusing themselves by scaring the escapees a bit.





Ryujin said:


> The upshot is, "The prisons are destroying our water, so screw them."




Oops, I missed these responses earlier.
Yeah, this was the impression I got, I just thought there might have been a key piece of dialogue that had convinced them that I missed.

Cheers


----------



## Dannyalcatraz

phuong said:


> it is a childish fantasy to suggest we will write computer code that magically makes our computers sentient.
> your essay on how droids need to have rights is childish and the show is not for children, it is for adults, stick with star trek and mainstream disney, that was designed for you.



*Mod Note:*

Disagreeing with other posters is fine.  Being disagreeable is not.

Your post here is quite rude, and not acceptable.  You’re done in this thread,  And if you make a habit of behaving like this, you’ll be disinvited from future participation on this site.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> It is possible that Hera and the Ghost did not survive the war



The last episode of Rebels, with it's flash-forward to post RotJ, confirmed that Hera, Chopper and the Ghost survived the war.

The Ghost is in TRoS.


----------



## reelo

Paul Farquhar said:


> The Ghost is in TRoS.




Yeah, I was gonna mention that.
I hope the Ahsoka series also has Kanaan and Hera's son.


----------



## Mallus

The last episode could have been called "The One Where We Remind You This Is a Star Wars Show". I admit I found it a little jarring. I'm going to have to think about that...


----------



## Sacrosanct

Mallus said:


> The last episode could have been called "The One Where We Remind You This Is a Star Wars Show". I admit I found it a little jarring. I'm going to have to think about that...



Yeah, that was my thought too.  I was immediately reminded about someone's comment a few weeks ago about "And this show doesn't even have laser battles or spaceships!"


----------



## CapnZapp

Five-star show


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

MarkB said:


> I think the sentient droids in Star Wars are a problem, and I think it's actually addressed, just not overtly.
> 
> I always wondered why the Republic and the Jedi so casually accepted the idea of using cloned humans as a slave army at the start of the Separatist conflict, despite there being laws against slavery within the Republic. I got that it was a desperate time that maybe called for desperate measures, but in most sources it's not even brought up as a point of contention - everyone just goes along with it.
> 
> I never really made the connection before, but perhaps the universal pervasiveness of droids had simply made that entire culture predisposed towards accepting the concept of a slave race, to the point that, with only the tiniest of spin, it slipped past any moral objections and became the norm. A lesson in the dangers of becoming comfortable with even artificial subservience.



Kinda exactly what a fellow poster warns us: If you design a slavce race in your fiction, you open up the head space to allow that a sentient seeming being might just be acceptable as slave. This may be possible in fiction, it may be possible in a hypothetical future with machine intelligences. But right now, a sentient - or rather, sapient - being is just another fellow human being and should never be enslaved.

But yeah, the clone troopers were rather easily accepted. As was the idea that Anakin's mother should be okay to stay in slavery. For Star Wars, the question of whether droids are enslaved or just do what they were made to do and are fine with that (or have no capability to be fine or not fine with something) is almost irrelevant because they are already commonly employ slaves - and even the Jedi, supposed to be paragons of virtue and justice, were willing to rely on ready-made combat slaves. 

I also think that something like 3POs limitation to not pretend to be god is that much of a sign that he is not sentient. Humans have things they won't do. We wouldn't ask a parent to kill his own child to prove his sentience and that he's not just following some moral programming, heck there are probably some religious people that would also categorally refuse to pretend to be god, too.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Mallus said:


> The last episode could have been called "The One Where We Remind You This Is a Star Wars Show". I admit I found it a little jarring. I'm going to have to think about that...




And it was better than at least three of the previous ten episodes.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Mallus said:


> The last episode could have been called "The One Where We Remind You This Is a Star Wars Show". I admit I found it a little jarring. I'm going to have to think about that...



Absolutely my thought too (see my "toy commercial" comment earlier).

When doing something that looks like Star Wars pulls you out of the show, as this did, it makes me think it should never had been a Star Wars show in the first place. It feels more like Blake's Seven to me (aside from the spaceships with frikkin lightsabres).


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Paul Farquhar said:


> When doing something that looks like Star Wars pulls you out of the show, as this did, it makes me think it should never had been a Star Wars show in the first place. It feels more like Blake's Seven to me (aside from the spaceships with frikkin lightsabres).




I disagree, in two parts.

First- Blake's 7 (not spelled out, weirdly). We can all agree that Andor can't hold a candle up to that show when it comes to special effects ... after all, the Andromeda Fleet was a high point in the genre that may never be matched ... but I can understand the superficial similarity. Show about freedom fighter rebelling against the Empire/Federation, with dark themes. But once you peel away the superficial similarity, you realize the messages are completely different.

Andor has the trappings of so-called grimdark, but it's fundamentally a hopeful show. We are seeing the horror of the Empire, and the sacrifices people must make to remove tyranny, but we know (we literally know!) that these sacrifices will be worth it. Moreover, while we see the rebellion forced to make hard choices ... we see them struggle with those hard choices. That's what differentiates them from the Empire. There is no institutionalized causal cruelty.

Blake's 7 is not that show, for two reasons. First, there was no knowledge of how it would end- you didn't know of any inevitable triumph. Second, it became apparent that there was no inevitable triumph. That the best that could be hoped for was moments of respite in between the grinding of the boot. In that sense, despite the production values and the amazing job of Servalan ... the show was much more realistic than Andor. The downfall of tyranny wasn't inevitable ... in fact, it was unlikely, and all that sacrifice was probably for nothing. 


Now, the second part. This is a "Star Wars" show. In fact, this is the best Star Wars show yet. To say this is not a Star Wars show is to strangle what little is left of Star Wars in the licensed bedsheets on the 1970s. A good story, well-told, and well-acted, in the Star Wars universe is a Star Wars show. I get that not everything here makes people comfortable- after all, it's easier to think of the abstract "cartoon villainy" of the Empire than consider what was necessary for it to function (the abstract idea of torture droids working off screen in ANH is much easier to pass over than to acknowledge that this was a normal part of how society was working, for example). It's also much easier to think about the heroics of Luke Skywalker showing up and shootin' down a Death Star than wondering what led to the rebellion that we see. I don't want every (or most) Star Wars shows to be quite this ... real ... but this has been a great run so far.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Snarf Zagyg said:


> First, there was no knowledge of how it would end- you didn't know of any inevitable triumph.



And the show would have been stronger if it had that element. It would also have been more powerful if they had only revealed the evil of the empire gradually, rather than have it something we know from the start.


Snarf Zagyg said:


> Now, the second part. This is a "Star Wars" show.



Only in name. In spirit, it's nothing like.

Which is not to say it's bad, but it aint Star Wars, and jedi knights with lightsabre twirling spaceships do not belong in it.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> Only in name. In spirit, it's nothing like.
> 
> Which is not to say it's bad, but it aint Star Wars, and jedi knights with lightsabre twirling spaceships do not belong in it.



This reminds me of the criticisms of Rogue One, that it shifted gears from espionage movie to war movie halfway through, and the two parts didn't go together.

I never got that. The movie does both of those things superbly, and integrates them well. It also firmly places them within the realm of the Star Wars setting, and Andor is doing the same.


----------



## Celebrim

Paul Farquhar said:


> In spirit, it's nothing like.




It's pretty much like a Star Wars WEG D6 RPG brought to life.  We've taken our eyes off of the main heroes of the galaxy, and we've moved off to the supporting cast - lesser heroes fighting smaller battles that make what the main characters do possible.  And of course the story here is that the heroic is just as heroic if not more heroic than the superheroic.  The small figures making the big sacrifices aren't less heroes than the Chosen One or the powerful Space Wizards with the ability to will the universe to obey them.   

And it's doing this for a lot of important reasons, but one of which I would say is that the Galaxy had become really small.  If the entire range of Star Wars was merely the immediate family of the Chosen One and the few characters that had interacted with them, then only very small stories could be told in the Star Wars universe and all the important ones had already been told.  

And for that reason it also feels like some of the best of the Star Wars EU, where people were trying to tell stories about something other than the Skywalkers.  



> Which is not to say it's bad, but it aint Star Wars, and jedi knights with lightsabre twirling spaceships do not belong in it.




Oh, but they do.  Because just because we've been focusing on the smaller heroes doing their thankless jobs outside of the limelight of the Chosen One, doesn't mean that those larger than life characters aren't out there.  It's just that thankfully, we've been looking in on the countless trillions of people in the Galaxy that aren't those figures and suggesting that maybe they mean just as much.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> This reminds me of the criticisms of Rogue One, that it shifted gears from espionage movie to war movie halfway through



That's hardly a new thing, have you seen_ Where Eagles Dare_? Which is tonally more Star Wars than Andor is, although Rogue One managed to retain Star Warsishness better than Andor.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> It's pretty much like a Star Wars WEG D6 RPG brought to life.



The tone of a tabletop RPG is determined by the players, and can be quite different to the original IP.


----------



## Ryujin

Celebrim said:


> It's pretty much like a Star Wars WEG D6 RPG brought to life.  We've taken our eyes off of the main heroes of the galaxy, and we've moved off to the supporting cast - lesser heroes fighting smaller battles that make what the main characters do possible.  And of course the story here is that the heroic is just as heroic if not more heroic than the superheroic.  The small figures making the big sacrifices aren't less heroes than the Chosen One or the powerful Space Wizards with the ability to will the universe to obey them.
> 
> And it's doing this for a lot of important reasons, but one of which I would say is that the Galaxy had become really small.  If the entire range of Star Wars was merely the immediate family of the Chosen One and the few characters that had interacted with them, then only very small stories could be told in the Star Wars universe and all the important ones had already been told.
> 
> And for that reason it also feels like some of the best of the Star Wars EU, where people were trying to tell stories about something other than the Skywalkers.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, but they do.  Because just because we've been focusing on the smaller heroes doing their thankless jobs outside of the limelight of the Chosen One, doesn't mean that those larger than life characters aren't out there.  It's just that thankfully, we've been looking in on the countless trillions of people in the Galaxy that aren't those figures and suggesting that maybe they mean just as much.



I would even argue that the regular folks who do the work behind the scenes, so that the Chosen One can do his thing, are even more heroic. They don't have "Space Magic"(tm) so they have even less chance of succeeding. They suffer more. They die more. They have less hope, but still do what they must. For every Jedi that you see suffer and die, in the original six movies, there are thousands of regular folks who did too.

Rather interestingly back in the day, when we had a regular WEG Star Wars campaign going, I was the only one who wanted to play a Jedi. Everyone else wanted to be some variation of the "Scruffy Nerfherder", or a bounty Hunter type of some kind.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> I would even argue that the regular folks who do the work behind the scenes, so that the Chosen One can do his thing, are even more heroic. They don't have "Space Magic"(tm) so they have even less chance of succeeding. They suffer more. They die more. They have less hope, but still do what they must. For every Jedi that you see suffer and die, in the original six movies, there are thousands of regular folks who did too.
> 
> Rather interestingly back in the day, when we had a regular WEG Star Wars campaign going, I was the only one who wanted to play a Jedi. Everyone else wanted to be some variation of the "Scruffy Nerfherder", or a bounty Hunter type of some kind.



I played WEG Star Wars. It made a pretty good stab at balancing the Scruffy Nerfherder  archetype against jedi PCs, so everyone was equally ridiculously heroic and plot armoured.


----------



## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> That's hardly a new thing, have you seen_ Where Eagles Dare_?



Oh, absolutely - a seriously underrated action espionage movie that deserves to stand alongside anything in the Bond franchise. And even most other Star Wars movies have this transition from small-scale character-based drama to huge space / ground battles, which makes it weird that Rogue One gets called out on it.


Paul Farquhar said:


> Which is tonally more Star Wars than Andor is, although Rogue One managed to retain Star Warsishness better than Andor.



Star Wars is as much a setting as a tone, and while Andor is tonally different than the movies, it fits perfectly well within the setting.


----------



## Dioltach

I'd argue that Andor is actually more Star Wars than the sequel trilogy, which feel like a cheap ripoff of the OT.


----------



## Vael

After the toxic discourse around TLJ and how much TROS bummed me out ... I didn't want to be a Star Wars fan anymore, didn't care to engage with it anymore. And while the Mandalorian was cute, it didn't draw me in the way Andor has. Between some killer acting, great world building, Andor has me. I'm both eager for the season finale and kinda dreading the wait after for S2.


----------



## billd91

Andor is tonally different from the original trilogy, sure. But the movies involved a full-fledged Rebel Alliance on the ascent with sophisticated military hardware and organization as well as personnel. It was nice, fat sausage.
Now, we’re watching those sausages being made. We’re watching the work that was invested to get to the original trilogy’s tone. 
And it’s a great Star Wars show.

I also keep in mind that Star Wars has and can support a variety of tones. We see that in the original movies too.


----------



## pukunui

I’ve been binge re-watching Rebels. There’s an episode in season 3 where they watch a recording of Mon Mothma speaking out against the Emperor. Later that episode, they end up helping Mon escape. I wonder if Andor s2 will show us more of that event in live action.

Also, I feel like Saw Gerrera is mostly wasted in live action. He just stands around and talks. Whereas in the cartoons and Jedi: Fallen Order (where he is still voiced by Forest Whitaker), he gets to be a man of action. He also comes across as less crazy (but still unscrupulous).

Even Two-Tubes gets a speaking part in Rebels instead of just standing around not saying anything.


----------



## Zaukrie

Paul Farquhar said:


> Absolutely my thought too (see my "toy commercial" comment earlier).
> 
> When doing something that looks like Star Wars pulls you out of the show, as this did, it makes me think it should never had been a Star Wars show in the first place. It feels more like Blake's Seven to me (aside from the spaceships with frikkin lightsabres).



It didn't pull anyone I know out of the show. I don't think everyone agrees on this....


----------



## Dire Bare

Zaukrie said:


> It didn't pull anyone I know out of the show. I don't think everyone agrees on this....



I found it mildly jarring . . . the scenes with the natives on the prison planet . . . but mostly because the aliens were so hard to understand, and the effects made them look very stiff, obviously _dudes-in-suits_. But it didn't kill my enjoyment of this amazing series on any level.

The aliens we've seen in other scenes, like when Luthen visits Saw's rebel cell, fit totally in the narrative seemlessly for me. And since nobody is talking about those scenes, I think it's a case of less-than-stellar effects rather than tonal shifts with the big aliens on the prison planet.


----------



## MarkB

Dire Bare said:


> I found it mildly jarring . . . the scenes with the natives on the prison planet . . . but mostly because the aliens were so hard to understand, and the effects made them look very stiff, obviously _dudes-in-suits_. But it didn't kill my enjoyment of this amazing series on any level.
> 
> The aliens we've seen in other scenes, like when Luthen visits Saw's rebel cell, fit totally in the narrative seemlessly for me. And since nobody is talking about those scenes, I think it's a case of less-than-stellar effects rather than tonal shifts with the big aliens on the prison planet.



I don't think that's the scene people are referring to as being jarring. I think it's Luthen's escape from the Imperial patrol in his tricked-out transport ship.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> I don't think that's the scene people are referring to as being jarring. I think it's Luthen's escape from the Imperial patrol in his tricked-out transport ship.



Indeed. A lightsabre wielding spaceship seems very juvenile for an otherwise adult focused show.

I have nothing against juvenile, it's the sudden switch that jarred.


----------



## Dire Bare

MarkB said:


> I don't think that's the scene people are referring to as being jarring. I think it's Luthen's escape from the Imperial patrol in his tricked-out transport ship.



Eh, I didn't find that jarring at all. Luthen is a wealthy bad-ass, of course he has a ship with all sorts of tricks.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> But no, crew of 2000+.  Utterly ridiculous size for its weapons load out.  And for some reason, carries two full wings of tie-fighters which are specialized interceptor/escort craft that while they are serviceable against other snub fighters, really lack the firepower to seriously hamper larger vessels of the sort pirates would operate. and aren't useful for boarding actions.



So, one fun fact that I only picked up from a Youtube video today - that twin-hulled TIE that's launched to pursue the Haulcraft isn't actually a TIE Bomber (you can tell by the lack of underslung warhead launcher). It's a rarely-seen TIE Boarding Craft, its secondary hull carrying a boarding team rather than munitions.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> So, one fun fact that I only picked up from a Youtube video today - that twin-hulled TIE that's launched to pursue the Haulcraft isn't actually a TIE Bomber (you can tell by the lack of underslung warhead launcher). It's a rarely-seen TIE Boarding Craft, its secondary hull carrying a boarding team rather than munitions.




Yeah, I watched the same video.  I honestly had forgotten about the existence of the Tie/Br and was surprised to see it canonized.   While the Tie/Br is barely suitable for customs inspections, I wouldn't want to assault a pirate ship with one.   And it doesn't really address my issues with the lack of firepower.  At least a Tie/sa can actually disable a large craft.

Point being, it's really easy to see why the Empire didn't build a ton of the Cantwell class.  The only thing it would be good at is harassing law abiding citizens and the most petty sorts of criminals, and for that job it's massive overkill.  And because it is massive overkill, you couldn't build enough of them to actually provide an effective blockade against petty crime.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> Yeah, I watched the same video.  I honestly had forgotten about the existence of the Tie/Br and was surprised to see it canonized.   While the Tie/Br is barely suitable for customs inspections, I wouldn't want to assault a pirate ship with one.   And it doesn't really address my issues with the lack of firepower.  At least a Tie/sa can actually disable a large craft.
> 
> Point being, it's really easy to see why the Empire didn't build a ton of the Cantwell class.  The only thing it would be good at is harassing law abiding citizens and the most petty sorts of criminals, and for that job it's massive overkill.  And because it is massive overkill, you couldn't build enough of them to actually provide an effective blockade against petty crime.



Pretty much in line with standard Imperial policy. They'd consider TIEs adequate against anything up to a light freighter, and anything larger shouldn't be able to evade the parent ship's own weapons.

And I'm always astonished at the listed crew complements of Star Wars capital ships.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> Pretty much in line with standard Imperial policy. They'd consider TIEs adequate against anything up to a light freighter, and anything larger shouldn't be able to evade the parent ship's own weapons.
> 
> And I'm always astonished at the listed crew complements of Star Wars capital ships.




To small or large?


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Pretty much in line with standard Imperial policy. They'd consider TIEs adequate against anything up to a light freighter, and anything larger shouldn't be able to evade the parent ship's own weapons.




I'm really sensitive to this because my PC's 68m long medium freighter is in a sweet spot where it's big enough that a standard Tie/Ln can't do much against it, but it's still small and nimble enough to usually avoid capital ship weaponry.  (Though it's revealed some weaknesses in WEG D6 that need remedies.)  My PC's ship is basically a tough version of what would be a standard pirate vessel in my campaign, and while it probably couldn't break a tractor lock (I know my PC's are going to be wanting to buy a tractor counter measure system now) it could put up quite a fight against a Cantwell with a crew of just 6 + 2 droids and a ship that's like 1000th the price and daily operating cost. 



> And I'm always astonished at the listed crew complements of Star Wars capital ships.




Historic and modern naval vessels in the real world usually astonish people with their crew complements as well, and people are often stunned by the number of people necessary to field say 12 artillery pieces.  So I'm not usually that fussed about large crew complements on a big ship. 

It's just I think that they could field a ship 1/4 as long and 1/60th as costly with a crew of 250ish that would do the job it seems designed to do even better.  

And I've been thinking about custom and patrol ships a lot lately - cutters, patrol frigates, patrol destroyers, corvettes, etc. - because that's the scale of what the PC's would usually be up against when/if they get exposed as rogue peacekeepers and the Empire goes after them.  There isn't a lot of attention paid to the Empire at that scale, especially in non-RPG media.   Fortunately, we've been getting things like the Raider-class corvette in video games, and fanmade ships like the Velox class.


----------



## Ryujin

People who are generally surprised at the crew compliments of ships should look up the term "hot racking." Given that a spaceship would probably operate on something similar to a submarine model, it's likely what is being done on Empire warships.


----------



## Zardnaar

Imperial ships have very low crew density for the size of the ship.


----------



## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> I'm really sensitive to this because my PC's 68m long medium freighter is in a sweet spot where it's big enough that a standard Tie/Ln can't do much against it, but it's still small and nimble enough to usually avoid capital ship weaponry.  (Though it's revealed some weaknesses in WEG D6 that need remedies.)



I'm not familiar with WEG D6, but I recall from Saga Edition that there was a not-so-sweet spot for light transports in that system - large enough to be more easily targeted by capital ships, but small enough that starfighters are a significant threat. There was an option in that system to fit thrusters that would allow a transport ship to engage in dogfighting, which sounded cool but was very inadvisable in practice, as the ship's size and manoeuvrability worked against it in practically all the available dogfighting manoeuvers.

Likewise, in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter PC games, there was a size bracket at which craft would go from being targetable only from short range, like starfighters, to being easily targeted at medium range, and a lot of transports and shuttles ended up on the wrong side of it.


Celebrim said:


> My PC's ship is basically a tough version of what would be a standard pirate vessel in my campaign, and while it probably couldn't break a tractor lock (I know my PC's are going to be wanting to buy a tractor counter measure system now) it could put up quite a fight against a Cantwell with a crew of just 6 + 2 droids and a ship that's like 1000th the price and daily operating cost.



True enough, but it's a consequence of the genre to some extent. Even small squadrons of starfighters can be a major threat to capital ships, and hero ships tend to straddle the line between starfighter and gunship.


Celebrim said:


> Historic and modern naval vessels in the real world usually astonish people with their crew complements as well, and people are often stunned by the number of people necessary to field say 12 artillery pieces.  So I'm not usually that fussed about large crew complements on a big ship.
> 
> It's just I think that they could field a ship 1/4 as long and 1/60th as costly with a crew of 250ish that would do the job it seems designed to do even better.
> 
> And I've been thinking about custom and patrol ships a lot lately - cutters, patrol frigates, patrol destroyers, corvettes, etc. - because that's the scale of what the PC's would usually be up against when/if they get exposed as rogue peacekeepers and the Empire goes after them.  There isn't a lot of attention paid to the Empire at that scale, especially in non-RPG media.   Fortunately, we've been getting things like the Raider-class corvette in video games, and fanmade ships like the Velox class.



Well, they've got the Arquitens light cruiser and Gozanti transport. They're both a lot less intensive in personnel requirements, and we see them used routinely for patrol duties in Rebels.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Well, they've got the Arquitens light cruiser and Gozanti transport. They're both a lot less intensive in personnel requirements, and we see them used routinely for patrol duties in Rebels.




The Arquitens is a really weird design.   I'm not that fond of it.  It's got the whole mini star destroyer thing going that does give it some punch versus other ships its size, but as an escort ship it leaves a lot to desire.  Starfighters rip it apart but at the same time it just cannot hold its own against bigger Capital ships. 

And the Gozanti transport is not really a combat vessel despite being grandiosely called a cruiser.  It's really a medium freighter and is a near-peer to the PC's modified Suwantek medium freighter.  It's also a terrible patrol craft, and less well armed than something like a YZ-775. 

Both ships have showed up a lot because Disney owns good 3D models of the ships that they can use in a variety of media by altering the skins and resolution. 

SAGA edition is probably doing better genre emulation by the sound of it, though I have to wonder how the Millenium Falcon was so capable of a craft under those rules. 

D6 has a number of issues with star ship combat that I'm solely working through as I get more experience with the system, one of them is that the range that is "star fighters" goes from like something like a TIE/Ln or Z-95 up to things that are almost capital ships with a length of around 95m.   But the range of available maneuverability doesn't really come close to handling that.   Another problem is that in the long run pilot skill so dominates maneuverability that a good pilot can make even a brick nimble.   Anyway, as usual with basically ever system I've ever run, I'm having to rewrite almost the whole thing - new stats for everything in the game, new game subsystems, etc.  Published game materials are really terrible quality overall.


----------



## Ryujin

Celebrim said:


> The Arquitens is a really weird design.   I'm not that fond of it.  It's got the whole mini star destroyer thing going that does give it some punch versus other ships its size, but as an escort ship it leaves a lot to desire.  Starfighters rip it apart but at the same time it just cannot hold its own against bigger Capital ships.
> 
> And the Gozanti transport is not really a combat vessel despite being grandiosely called a cruiser.  It's really a medium freighter and is a near-peer to the PC's modified Suwantek medium freighter.  It's also a terrible patrol craft, and less well armed than something like a YZ-775.
> 
> Both ships have showed up a lot because Disney owns good 3D models of the ships that they can use in a variety of media by altering the skins and resolution.
> 
> SAGA edition is probably doing better genre emulation by the sound of it, though I have to wonder how the Millenium Falcon was so capable of a craft under those rules.
> 
> D6 has a number of issues with star ship combat that I'm solely working through as I get more experience with the system, one of them is that the range that is "star fighters" goes from like something like a TIE/Ln or Z-95 up to things that are almost capital ships with a length of around 95m.   But the range of available maneuverability doesn't really come close to handling that.   Another problem is that in the long run pilot skill so dominates maneuverability that a good pilot can make even a brick nimble.   Anyway, as usual with basically ever system I've ever run, I'm having to rewrite almost the whole thing - new stats for everything in the game, new game subsystems, etc.  Published game materials are really terrible quality overall.



I think that the way that WEG Star Wars handles ship combat, with the pilot's skill being able to turn a garbage scow into a combat fighter, is very in keeping with a universe that takes a fairly large chunk of its DNA from the movie serials of the '30s and '40s. It's not a combat simulator but rather about recreating the cinematic feel of the original movies that involves fast paced action, and improbable escapes. That, it does exceedingly well.


----------



## Celebrim

Ryujin said:


> I think that the way that WEG Star Wars handles ship combat, with the pilot's skill being able to turn a garbage scow into a combat fighter, is very in keeping with a universe that takes a fairly large chunk of its DNA from the movie serials of the '30s and '40s. It's not a combat simulator but rather about recreating the cinematic feel of the original movies that involves fast paced action, and improbable escapes. That, it does exceedingly well.




Yeah, I know what it's going for and to a certain extent I'm on board the project.  But the more you dig into the math the more of a problem you realize it is, in that while you do want to have the PC's pull off the improbable escapes and victories, if they are actually by the math almost certainties then there is no drama either.  The heroes need to experience a bit of struggle on their way to victory.  You also want to avoid a situation where both sides are engaged in futility, because that's not very exciting either.


----------



## Ryujin

Celebrim said:


> Yeah, I know what it's going for and to a certain extent I'm on board the project.  But the more you dig into the math the more of a problem you realize it is, in that while you do want to have the PC's pull off the improbable escapes and victories, if they are actually by the math almost certainties then there is no drama either.  The heroes need to experience a bit of struggle on their way to victory.  You also want to avoid a situation where both sides are engaged in futility, because that's not very exciting either.



If that's happening then, as with any other game, the opponents scale to match. Run-of-the-mill bounty hunters not doing it anymore? Guess it's time that someone takes notice and puts the elite on their tail. Too many easy get-aways in their ship? I guess it's time that an elite flight of Tie Fighter pilots by dispatched. When the GM got tired of me defeating opponents largely just by defending myself, with my Lightsabre, he sent in opponents who actually knew what a Lightsabre was. On top of that there's always just sending numbers. Having to split your actions means less dice per action, which means more tension.


----------



## Hussar

Celebrim said:


> Right now my only regret is Diego Luna refused to do all 5 of the originally planned seasons forcing the pacing to be this fast.



While I'm absolutely loving this show, further reducing its pace by 80% would make it unwatchable for me.  It's not like this is a very fast paced show at all.


----------



## Hussar

A few thoughts now that I'm caught up.

1.  ADORING THIS SHOW.  Wow, this is probably one of the top three SF shows I've seen (My other two being The Expanse and Children of Earth - the Torchwood movie)

2.  I do find it interesting though that when Star Wars goes "adult" it's lauded as being fantastic as a Star Wars story, but, when Star Trek tried to do the exact same thing with Discovery, they got absolutely dog piled for it not being "real" Star Trek.  Now sure what that says about fandom.


----------



## Ryujin

Hussar said:


> A few thoughts now that I'm caught up.
> 
> 1.  ADORING THIS SHOW.  Wow, this is probably one of the top three SF shows I've seen (My other two being The Expanse and Children of Earth - the Torchwood movie)
> 
> 2.  I do find it interesting though that when Star Wars goes "adult" it's lauded as being fantastic as a Star Wars story, but, when Star Trek tried to do the exact same thing with Discovery, they got absolutely dog piled for it not being "real" Star Trek.  Now sure what that says about fandom.



Not sure what to say about the second point. I just didn't like "Discovery" and no, it didn't feel like Star Trek to me, so I just couldn't get into it. Like the Kelvin Universe movies it felt more like a generic ScFi, with a coat of Star Trek paint on.


----------



## Zardnaar

MarkB said:


> I'm not familiar with WEG D6, but I recall from Saga Edition that there was a not-so-sweet spot for light transports in that system - large enough to be more easily targeted by capital ships, but small enough that starfighters are a significant threat. There was an option in that system to fit thrusters that would allow a transport ship to engage in dogfighting, which sounded cool but was very inadvisable in practice, as the ship's size and manoeuvrability worked against it in practically all the available dogfighting manoeuvers.
> 
> Likewise, in the X-Wing and TIE Fighter PC games, there was a size bracket at which craft would go from being targetable only from short range, like starfighters, to being easily targeted at medium range, and a lot of transports and shuttles ended up on the wrong side of it.
> 
> True enough, but it's a consequence of the genre to some extent. Even small squadrons of starfighters can be a major threat to capital ships, and hero ships tend to straddle the line between starfighter and gunship.
> 
> Well, they've got the Arquitens light cruiser and Gozanti transport. They're both a lot less intensive in personnel requirements, and we see them used routinely for patrol duties in Rebels.




 Light transports in saga are big enough for capital ship weapons to hit. Combat thrusters iirc gets them down to starfighter size. 

 Best ships to dogfight in Saga are huge starfighters vs everything else. In all cases modifying your shops is great. Something like a tie interceptor with protons and shields will rip apart an x-wing in a dogfight. 

 Best freighter to use is the tie scout. It's gargantuan vs colossal with generous cargo hold. All transports you want to reduce cargo for more modification points. From memory a gargantuan ship reduces 2 tons while colossal is 5 tons. Shields are underpriced and easy to mod in. 

 Cheap capital ship is something like a bulk freighter modified into a light cruiser. Heavy shields, turbolasers, capital ship proton torpedos. 

 D6 it's all about maneuverability on your starfighters. On capitals ships having a fewer high damage weapons is better than lots of weaker ones. Eg 7D turbolasers vs 4D or 5D. This is because of how the hull+ shield system works. 

 In both systems cost plus crew requirements make strike cruisers and Victory ISDs best ships in game. 10 strike cruisers will eat an ISD for breakfast and require a fraction of the crew.


----------



## MarkB

Zardnaar said:


> Light transports in saga are big enough for capital ship weapons to hit. Combat thrusters iirc gets them down to starfighter size.



I no longer have the book to hand, but my recollection is that combat thrusters let you engage (or be engaged) in dogfights, but didn't reduce your effective size. You still had the same -10 size penalty as any larger vessel, and could still be targeted without penalty by capital ships. Worst of both worlds.


Zardnaar said:


> D6 it's all about maneuverability on your starfighters. On capitals ships having a fewer high damage weapons is better than lots of weaker ones. Eg 7D turbolasers vs 4D or 5D. This is because of how the hull+ shield system works.



Also true to some extent in Saga due to how shields and damage threshold works, except that they have the battery fire rules which allow a bank of smaller weapons to focus and synchronise fire so that they pack the punch of a single larger weapon.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Hussar said:


> While I'm absolutely loving this show, further reducing its pace by 80% would make it unwatchable for me.  It's not like this is a very fast paced show at all.




The problem is uneven pacing. You get a slow episode, or two, followed by a couple that are more tense and exciting, then another slow, and so on. For example, while some people thought the first two episodes were fine, that are a lot of viewers who are very glad that the first three episodes were released at one time, because the 3rd one saved the show. The first three episodes could have easily been condensed down into two and made for a much more interesting start.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The problem is uneven pacing. You get a slow episode, or two, followed by a couple that are more tense and exciting, then another slow, and so on. For example, while some people thought the first two episodes were fine, that are a lot of viewers who are very glad that the first three episodes were released at one time, because the 3rd one saved the show. The first three episodes could have easily been condensed down into two and made for a much more interesting start.



At this point it feels entirely deliberate. An episode or two to lay out the groundwork of the new situation, then an episode or two of just dialling up the tension to the breaking point, then a climactic episode that goes big and pays off everything the last few episodes were setting up. I like it - haven't always been on the edge of my seat, but haven't been bored.


----------



## Celebrim

MarkB said:


> Also true to some extent in Saga due to how shields and damage threshold works, except that they have the battery fire rules which allow a bank of smaller weapons to focus and synchronise fire so that they pack the punch of a single larger weapon.




You can do that in D6 too.  You just assign a battery of weapons a gunnery officer and have him make a Command roll to have all the guns in battery assist one gun on a damage roll.

Alternately, you could do the same to boost the weapons roll to increase the chances of hitting an agile target.


----------



## Hussar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> The problem is uneven pacing. You get a slow episode, or two, followed by a couple that are more tense and exciting, then another slow, and so on. For example, while some people thought the first two episodes were fine, that are a lot of viewers who are very glad that the first three episodes were released at one time, because the 3rd one saved the show. The first three episodes could have easily been condensed down into two and made for a much more interesting start.



There is also the streaming effect to take into consideration.  I deliberately don't watch two or three episodes and then binge them all at once.  So, I watched like the first 4 in one sitting, then the next 3 then the next 3.  So, if you watch like that, the pacing works really, really well.  You keep getting the payoff for the slow build episodes.  And, since the episodes are very short - like 30-40 minutes each, watching three episodes at once feels like a single episode with a couple of pee breaks thrown in.


----------



## Older Beholder

I haven't had an issue with the pacing, having slow episodes that build to eps with more action isn't 'uneven' to me, that's exactly what pacing means. The first three episodes give more weight to what's happening in the show now and why Andor would risk going back, etc...


----------



## Zardnaar

Celebrim said:


> You can do that in D6 too.  You just assign a battery of weapons a gunnery officer and have him make a Command roll to have all the guns in battery assist one gun on a damage roll.
> 
> Alternately, you could do the same to boost the weapons roll to increase the chances of hitting an agile target.




 Super star destroyers are essentially invincible. Until command skill gets used "concentrate all fire on that SSD".

 Akbar has 10D+ in command off the top of my head.

 In both systems adding shields


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Hussar said:


> And, since the episodes are very short - like 30-40 minutes each, watching three episodes at once feels like a single episode with a couple of pee breaks thrown in.




Only one episode was under 40 minutes, and most have been 45-55 minutes long.


----------



## Hussar

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Only one episode was under 40 minutes, and most have been 45-55 minutes long.



Kinda?  There's more than five minutes of credits at the end of every episode and the first two or three minutes is recap and opening credits.  So the episodes are actually about 40 minutes long.  They really are very short.


----------



## embee

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Only one episode was under 40 minutes, and most have been 45-55 minutes long.



Don't think of them as episodes. 

Watch 3 episode story arcs all at once. They are more like made-for-TV movies.


----------



## Celebrim

Zardnaar said:


> Light transports in Saga...




It sounds like switching to Saga would just bring a new set of problems to solve.

Based on canon, the best ships in the game should be gunships that have been modified to have star fighter like speed and agility - think Millenium Falcon, Ghost, Luthen's Haulcraft, Moldy Crow, etc.  The Falcon for example combines the best qualities of a star fighter with enough shields and hull to not die the first time they are hit by capital ship scale weaponry and has the subtle advantage of having multiple crew that can each focus on single tasks.  The second-best ships should be the extreme high end space superiority craft where unlimited skill at piloting gives you effectively unlimited ability to avoid getting hit while still having enough firepower to harass or destroy even the modified gunships.  These are the hero ships, though arguably at some scale heroes seem to also use the Star Destroyer scale ships as well.  

I love the Tie-In, but it shouldn't even be possible to put shields and proton torp launchers on it.  There isn't enough space, and if you increased it's weight to give it enough space, it should be relatively ungainly like a Tie-Sa.   The Tie-A has the extra hull space for that sort of thing and Tie-D's and Tie-A's should represent the peak of what you can do with that hull.  



> Best freighter to use is the tie scout.




Ughh.



> In both systems cost plus crew requirements make strike cruisers and Victory ISDs best ships in game. 10 strike cruisers will eat an ISD for breakfast and require a fraction of the crew.




I have a modifications to the Capital ship damage rules that I intend to put in place that should balance large capital ships against smaller ones better.   Basically, bigger ships should have bigger damage tracks.   That may require some rebalancing on the super-capitals to drop their hull closer to capitals in exchange for truly massive damage tracks, but I don't really intend to run engagements with super-capitals ever anyway and besides which the stats for capital ships are all messed up across the board anyway simply because you can tell people threw them out and never play tested them.


----------



## Ryujin

Being noticed by a capital ship in Star Wars should be pretty much something like being noticed by a god in D&D; something that you _never_ want to have happen.


----------



## MarkB

Ryujin said:


> Being noticed by a capital ship in Star Wars should be pretty much something like being noticed by a god in D&D; something that you _never_ want to have happen.



Imperial capital ships are ubiquitous, though. In the original trilogy, barring fighters and shuttles, the Empire never fields anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and will frequently throw two or three of them at a problem, even if that problem is just one light freighter.


----------



## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> Imperial capital ships are ubiquitous, though. In the original trilogy, barring fighters and shuttles, the Empire never fields anything smaller than a Star Destroyer, and will frequently throw two or three of them at a problem, even if that problem is just one light freighter.



And the general rule is run, or get caught/destroyed.


----------



## pukunui

So tonight's the night! I'm excited to see what the finale brings.

What's next on the continuous cycle of MCU and Star Wars Disney+ content? I've lost track. Are we getting anything else between now and when the Mandalorian S3 debuts early next year?


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> What's next on the continuous cycle of MCU and Star Wars Disney+ content? I've lost track. Are we getting anything else between now and when the Mandalorian S3 debuts early next year?




Other than the GotG Holiday Special on Friday, nothing for Marvel until Secret Invasion in the "Spring", though What If? season 2 is also listed as "early 2023", so we may get that before Secret Invasion.

For Star Wars, Bad Batch season 2 is supposed to start on Jan 4, and then Mandalorian some time in February, as far as I can find.

But we also get the Willow series next Wednesday on the 29th and the National Treasure series on Dec 14. So other good stuff to occupy us.


----------



## Zardnaar

Celebrim said:


> It sounds like switching to Saga would just bring a new set of problems to solve.
> 
> Based on canon, the best ships in the game should be gunships that have been modified to have star fighter like speed and agility - think Millenium Falcon, Ghost, Luthen's Haulcraft, Moldy Crow, etc.  The Falcon for example combines the best qualities of a star fighter with enough shields and hull to not die the first time they are hit by capital ship scale weaponry and has the subtle advantage of having multiple crew that can each focus on single tasks.  The second-best ships should be the extreme high end space superiority craft where unlimited skill at piloting gives you effectively unlimited ability to avoid getting hit while still having enough firepower to harass or destroy even the modified gunships.  These are the hero ships, though arguably at some scale heroes seem to also use the Star Destroyer scale ships as well.
> 
> I love the Tie-In, but it shouldn't even be possible to put shields and proton torp launchers on it.  There isn't enough space, and if you increased it's weight to give it enough space, it should be relatively ungainly like a Tie-Sa.   The Tie-A has the extra hull space for that sort of thing and Tie-D's and Tie-A's should represent the peak of what you can do with that hull.
> 
> 
> 
> Ughh.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a modifications to the Capital ship damage rules that I intend to put in place that should balance large capital ships against smaller ones better.   Basically, bigger ships should have bigger damage tracks.   That may require some rebalancing on the super-capitals to drop their hull closer to capitals in exchange for truly massive damage tracks, but I don't really intend to run engagements with super-capitals ever anyway and besides which the stats for capital ships are all messed up across the board anyway simply because you can tell people threw them out and never play tested them.




 In D6 transports have larger gull amounts and something like a YT-2400 modified would be very good.

 Various military shuttles s d gunships also fairly decent. 

 Falcon has something like 6D hull and 3D shields.

What's best is generally what the GM allows one to aquire and how generous with money they are. 

 A Saga character can build around access to black market and can get wealth regardless to be raw can aquire anything they be can afford reasonably early in the game eg level 4 or 5 with the wealth talent. 

 That's enough for a basic freighter or something or a modified light fighter. Something like a TIE with 5D cannons and 1D+2 shields.


----------



## Zardnaar

Celebrim said:


> It sounds like switching to Saga would just bring a new set of problems to solve.
> 
> Based on canon, the best ships in the game should be gunships that have been modified to have star fighter like speed and agility - think Millenium Falcon, Ghost, Luthen's Haulcraft, Moldy Crow, etc.  The Falcon for example combines the best qualities of a star fighter with enough shields and hull to not die the first time they are hit by capital ship scale weaponry and has the subtle advantage of having multiple crew that can each focus on single tasks.  The second-best ships should be the extreme high end space superiority craft where unlimited skill at piloting gives you effectively unlimited ability to avoid getting hit while still having enough firepower to harass or destroy even the modified gunships.  These are the hero ships, though arguably at some scale heroes seem to also use the Star Destroyer scale ships as well.
> 
> I love the Tie-In, but it shouldn't even be possible to put shields and proton torp launchers on it.  There isn't enough space, and if you increased it's weight to give it enough space, it should be relatively ungainly like a Tie-Sa.   The Tie-A has the extra hull space for that sort of thing and Tie-D's and Tie-A's should represent the peak of what you can do with that hull.
> 
> 
> 
> Ughh.
> 
> 
> 
> I have a modifications to the Capital ship damage rules that I intend to put in place that should balance large capital ships against smaller ones better.   Basically, bigger ships should have bigger damage tracks.   That may require some rebalancing on the super-capitals to drop their hull closer to capitals in exchange for truly massive damage tracks, but I don't really intend to run engagements with super-capitals ever anyway and besides which the stats for capital ships are all messed up across the board anyway simply because you can tell people threw them out and never play tested them.




TIE Scouts a better ship in D6 than a YT-1300 as well.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

embee said:


> Don't think of them as episodes.
> 
> Watch 3 episode story arcs all at once. They are more like made-for-TV movies.



I think the show might have done better in the ratings had they dropped the whole series at once, Netflix style. I don't think having to wait three weeks for anything exciting to happen did it any favours.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> Based on canon, the best ships in the game should be gunships that have been modified to have star fighter like speed and agility - think Millenium Falcon, Ghost, Luthen's Haulcraft, Moldy Crow, etc.



I have a completely unsubstantiated head-canon that the Force also binds non-living things. So both droids and ships that have a lot of attention invested in them, especially by force-sensitives, become capable of things well beyond their design parameters. If you tried to reproduce the Millenium Falcon off a production line it simply wouldn't fly. C-3PO enters an escape pod and impersonates a god even though he is prevented from doing so by his programming.

Other examples: In Episode 1, R2-D2 seems to avoid being blasted whilst repairing the ship by shear luck. But in the Star Wars universe, there is no luck, there is the Force. In KotOR the Ebon Hawk has a reputation as a "cursed" ship.


----------



## Hussar

That… was … AWESOME!!!!!


----------



## pukunui

That was a helluva finale!

N.B. There is a post-credits scene!


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Considering how dark and gritty Rogue One was, and Andor is trying to be, I am quite surprised there were no deaths of major characters on either the Rebel or Imperial side in the finale. Sure, a couple of peripheral characters died, but nobody major. So of all the stuff from all 12 episodes, that is the thing that most threw me off the vibe of the show. Oh, and the Imperial officers allowing the holo-speech to go on as long as it did. And him running up to cover the holo-projector with a coat?  lol   If it were not Star Wars, the droid would have been blasted instead.


----------



## Nikosandros

What do you think? Is Mon's husband truly gambling away a lot of money or was that disinformation to cover her illegal pro- rebel banking activities?


----------



## Davies

Nikosandros said:


> What do you think? Is Mon's husband truly gambling away a lot of money or was that disinformation to cover her illegal pro- rebel banking activities?



He _seemed_ genuinely surprised to be accused of this, so while I suspect he is gambling, he isn't doing it enough that she needs to cover it up with the money she's getting from Davo. _Mostly_ disinfo, then.


----------



## Ryujin

A head-butt? What does Storm Trooper armour even do?


----------



## Ryujin

Hold on through the credits for a stinger, that shows what they were building in the prison.


----------



## MarkB

Nikosandros said:


> What do you think? Is Mon's husband truly gambling away a lot of money or was that disinformation to cover her illegal pro- rebel banking activities?



Oh, absolutely disinformation. She's in a corner and she's decided she'd rather sacrifice her husband than her daughter. But since the 'play-date' has gone ahead anyway, she may wind up sacrificing both.


----------



## Dioltach

Great episode. Nothing too flashy, all the action was gritty and realistic. An excellent way to end the series. Nice shout-out to the Rebel base on Dantooine.


----------



## MarkB

Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Oh, and the Imperial officers allowing the holo-speech to go on as long as it did. And him running up to cover the holo-projector with a coat?  lol   If it were not Star Wars, the droid would have been blasted instead.



That's missing the point - this was all about the Empire working against itself, and all these individual acts of insurrection happening to come together.

Normally this wouldn't have worked - in fact, the entire funeral wouldn't have been allowed to take place. But the officers on the street are hamstrung by Dedra's instructions - they have to let the funeral play out until Cassian shows up, and they can't immediately use lethal methods because they need to take him alive.


----------



## RuinousPowers

I feel that it was one of the weaker episodes. I really didn't feel a lot of tension, and everything seemed a bit broadcasted from 2 scenes away. The camera kept panning over to one guy, and then he died and got a closeup too; was I supposed to remember him from an earlier episode? Once again, the Empire's ability to open fire on an unarmed crowd seems pretty weak.


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> Oh, absolutely disinformation. She's in a corner and she's decided she'd rather sacrifice her husband than her daughter. But since the 'play-date' has gone ahead anyway, she may wind up sacrificing both.



Unfortunately for Mon, even if she’s turned against her world’s traditions, her daughter has completely bought into them, even going so far as to hold the equivalent of Bible study classes for her friends. She looked happy to be getting married off.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Nikosandros said:


> What do you think? Is Mon's husband truly gambling away a lot of money or was that disinformation to cover her illegal pro- rebel banking activities?



It's disinformation to cover her money transfers. In the first episode that introduces Mon Mothma, she makes a point to call out her new driver as probable spy. If it was true, she'd try to talk about it without prying ears.


----------



## Nikosandros

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> It's disinformation to cover her money transfers. In the first episode that introduces Mon Mothma, she makes a point to call out her new driver as probable spy. If it was true, she'd try to talk about it without prying ears.



Yes, I thought I remembered something like that...


----------



## pukunui

So now that Syril has saved Dedra’s life, will we see him working for the ISB next season?


----------



## MarkB

pukunui said:


> So now that Syril has saved Dedra’s life, will we see him working for the ISB next season?



Probably 50/50 between that and him kidnapping her to a creepy basement somewhere.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

pukunui said:


> So now that Syril has saved Dedra’s life, will we see him working for the ISB next season?




I am just so glad that the writers did not give in to the tired old trope of "woman falls for her male rescuer". I was so ready, but not ready, for the cringe of her kissing him.


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> Probably 50/50 between that and him kidnapping her to a creepy basement somewhere.



I mean, yeah, he does kind of look at her in that way, but I think that might be a little too grimdark even for this show ...



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> I am just so glad that the writers did not give in to the tired old trope of "woman falls for her male rescuer". I was so ready, but not ready, for the cringe of her kissing him.



This.


I think the real question is: Will Syril modify his ISB uniform?


----------



## Dioltach

pukunui said:


> I think the real question is: Will Syril modify his ISB uniform?



Nonono, the real question is what Syril's mum will think of his new girlfriend.


----------



## MarkB

The use of diagetic music in this episode was awesome. Starting with the booming tones of the town bell, the marching band of the funerary procession managed to convey both a deep solemnity and a sense of challenge that was all the more effective for the visible effect it was having on the Imperial forces in the town centre.

I'm hard-pressed to think of any show that does "rising tension" more effectively than Andor, and that scene was the peak performance.


----------



## pukunui

MarkB said:


> The use of diagetic music in this episode was awesome. Starting with the booming tones of the town bell, the marching band of the funerary procession managed to convey both a deep solemnity and a sense of challenge that was all the more effective for the visible effect it was having on the Imperial forces in the town centre.
> 
> I'm hard-pressed to think of any show that does "rising tension" more effectively than Andor, and that scene was the peak performance.



Agreed. And they were also playing the show's main theme (which is played in different ways at the start of every episode).

Also, re: the earlier point about the way the Imperial reacted to Maarva's message - I think his intentions were to prevent a riot, even though his actions ultimately were the trigger for one.


----------



## trappedslider

MarkB said:


> Probably 50/50 between that and him kidnapping her to a creepy basement somewhere.



Criminal Minds: A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

Also the first two episodes ( I think) are airing tonight on network tv ABC


----------



## Hussar

Man, there are just so many really dark things to unpack in that show.  

They definitely did put this one square in the center of entertainment not really for kids.  I imagine that's going to be a tightrope walk going forward.  Do you make a Star Wars that's for the pre-teen crowd like most of the animated series (note, I say most, not all) or do you go full on Andor or something in the middle?  That's a really tight needle to thread.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Also, was it just me or did others expect those weird flutes, and other overly complex-looking instruments, to be concealing blasters?


----------



## pukunui

Hussar said:


> Man, there are just so many really dark things to unpack in that show.
> 
> They definitely did put this one square in the center of entertainment not really for kids.  I imagine that's going to be a tightrope walk going forward.  Do you make a Star Wars that's for the pre-teen crowd like most of the animated series (note, I say most, not all) or do you go full on Andor or something in the middle?  That's a really tight needle to thread.



I've been watching it with my children (16, 14, and 10). I think the really dark, adult themes mostly just go over the younger ones' heads. I quizzed them about the subtleties of the interactions between Mon and Davo, for instance, and they just didn't really get what was going on there.



Enevhar Aldarion said:


> Also, was it just me or did others expect those weird flutes, and other overly complex-looking instruments, to be concealing blasters?



I didn't.


----------



## Celebrim

So, 7/10.

I really think this show did an amazing amount with it's budget and yet at the same time was held back by not enough budget.  Everything about the show was good, and yet I felt the need for a bit of desert that was just not forthcoming.

This episode really needed about 20 minutes more and a bit more ambition.  I love all the build up, but the longer you build up the more payoff you are promising and this was good but not great.


----------



## pukunui

Yeah, for sure. A good show that was a major departure from typical SW fare that still could have been even better with a bit more polish.


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> Unfortunately for Mon, even if she’s turned against her world’s traditions, her daughter has completely bought into them, even going so far as to hold the equivalent of Bible study classes for her friends. She looked happy to be getting married off.




Notice also the very subtle thing where the daughter glances at her mother checking for approval, but Mon Mothma is looking away and doesn't see, and then when the daughter looks back, Mon Mothma focuses her attention on her with concern and fear - but the daughter doesn't see it.  It's a microcosm of the two characters inability to communicate with each other.

I love the Mon Mothma story line, but it hasn't gotten enough attention and didn't finish with enough closure.  I think 15-20 more minutes of dialogue could have made this much more epic, building up more of the complex relationship she has with her husband, showing Mon Mothma being more devious and skilled of a politician, and in particular I would have loved that they showed that dinner party with Sate Pestus and the other members of the Imperial High Council and how she had to navigate the treacherous waters and convince them of her loyalty to the Empire.  And I also would have loved if in the finale episode of the season, they brought back her son from the Legends canon - home from the Imperial Academy (a soldier like his father) - and furious about his mother fraternizing with this gangster from the home world.


----------



## Vael

If this was the series finale, I'd agree, but this was the season finale and I'm glad Andor didn't completely up end the board. Mon Mothma's initial problem, her bank accounts, may be settled, but that doesn't deal with the Imperial scrutiny she's under, or any of the complications that are sure to rise by choosing to work with Davo. So those issues are there and sure to take up her story in the next season. Which will be an unbearable wait for.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> I love the Mon Mothma story line, but it hasn't gotten enough attention and didn't finish with enough closure.



This. It was well written and well-acted, and there was nothing like enough of it.

Instead, we got irrelevant and incoherent snapshots of Cassian's childhood, and a missing sister subplot that went nowhere.

I think the show should have been called something like "Rise of the Rebellion" and Cassian just one of many characters, rather than the lead.


----------



## reelo

One think I thought of when I saw the funeral marching bands: Gilroy is the guy who gave us the Bourne flicks, so spy-thrillers are his thing: the marching bands must have been an callback to _another_ classic spy franchise, namely James Bond, Live and let Die.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> A head-butt? What does Storm Trooper armour even do?



In Rebels, Rex does complain about how rubbish Stormtrooper armour is compared to the old clone armour.


----------



## Dioltach

Stormtrooper armour is actually made from eggshells. Or perhaps it's just bodypaint.


----------



## pukunui

Celebrim said:


> Notice also the very subtle thing where the daughter glances at her mother checking for approval, but Mon Mothma is looking away and doesn't see, and then when the daughter looks back, Mon Mothma focuses her attention on her with concern and fear - but the daughter doesn't see it.  It's a microcosm of the two characters inability to communicate with each other.



Agreed. I loved this show’s subtleties and attention to detail.



Celebrim said:


> I love the Mon Mothma story line, but it hasn't gotten enough attention and didn't finish with enough closure.  I think 15-20 more minutes of dialogue could have made this much more epic, building up more of the complex relationship she has with her husband, showing Mon Mothma being more devious and skilled of a politician, and in particular I would have loved that they showed that dinner party with Sate Pestus and the other members of the Imperial High Council and how she had to navigate the treacherous waters and convince them of her loyalty to the Empire.  And I also would have loved if in the finale episode of the season, they brought back her son from the Legends canon - home from the Imperial Academy (a soldier like his father) - and furious about his mother fraternizing with this gangster from the home world.





Vael said:


> If this was the series finale, I'd agree, but this was the season finale and I'm glad Andor didn't completely up end the board. Mon Mothma's initial problem, her bank accounts, may be settled, but that doesn't deal with the Imperial scrutiny she's under, or any of the complications that are sure to rise by choosing to work with Davo. So those issues are there and sure to take up her story in the next season. Which will be an unbearable wait for.



While I agree, it also feels a bit like they’re rushing things. Going by the timeline established by Rebels, there’s still ~ 3 years to go between the end of Andor and when Mon finally denounces the Emperor and flees Coruscant. If she loses both her daughter and her husband in quick succession, she‘s going to end up isolated for quite some time.


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

I don't have the link to the interview handy, but the director, Tony Gilroy?, said that the beginning of season two is set a full year after the end of season one. So we will not see any of the immediate aftermath of the finale, unless we get more flashbacks.


----------



## Hussar

Well, really, what would be the immediate aftermath?  There's going to be a massacre.  We don't really need to see that on screen do we?  It's not like there's any chance that Ferrix will stage some sort of successful rebellion.  And the Rebel Alliance isn't a thing yet, so, it's not like Ferrix is going to get any help.  Fast forwarding a year seems like a pretty decent idea.


----------



## MarkB

Hussar said:


> Well, really, what would be the immediate aftermath?  There's going to be a massacre.  We don't really need to see that on screen do we?  It's not like there's any chance that Ferrix will stage some sort of successful rebellion.  And the Rebel Alliance isn't a thing yet, so, it's not like Ferrix is going to get any help.  Fast forwarding a year seems like a pretty decent idea.



On the other hand, seeing how the rest of that last scene between Andor and Luthen plays out would be nice, as well as where the other Ferrix escapees go.


----------



## Dioltach

MarkB said:


> as well as where the other Ferrix escapees go.



Dantooine, they said. Which in A New Hope is mentioned as having formerly been a Rebel Base. It's where Leia say the Rebels are hiding, instead of Yavin.


----------



## Zardnaar

Dioltach said:


> Dantooine, they said. Which in A New Hope is mentioned as having formerly been a Rebel Base. It's where Leia say the Rebels are hiding, instead of Yavin.




 Wonder if they find the ruins of a Jedi academy there and a crystal cave?


----------



## trappedslider

reelo said:


> One think I thought of when I saw the funeral marching bands:



this is what I thought of when they started marching toward the imperials


----------



## Celebrim

pukunui said:


> While I agree, it also feels a bit like they’re rushing things. Going by the timeline established by Rebels, there’s still ~ 3 years to go between the end of Andor and when Mon finally denounces the Emperor and flees Coruscant. If she loses both her daughter and her husband in quick succession, she‘s going to end up isolated for quite some time.




I'm convinced a lot of the shows problems come down to the script was originally written for a 5 season story arc and Diego Luna pulled out of the 8 year commitment that implied and they've had to pare down the script to just two seasons.  In a 5 season story arc you'd want all these Checkov Guns hanging on the wall waiting to be fired, but some of them now there just isn't really time.  Like the sister story arc could be 6 episodes on its own to get full close - three to find the sister and three to explain how the destruction of everyone on that planet was relevant to the larger galaxy.  But without that, we're reduced to the search for the sister being only the impetus that led to Cassian running afoul of the Empire.  

Still, as it's clear there is now no time for payoff, I think the flashback sequence could have gone.  There is likewise no reason for Vel to have been a part of the story since the end of episode 6, and we really didn't need a shot of Cinta between episode 7 and episode 11.

Aside from the stunted story line, I really think the other problem the TV series has is the "main cast" problem making these sorts of TV series.  In order to get an actor/actress to sign a TV series like this, they have to have assurance that they are part of the "main cast".  Main cast billing requires that they appear in a certain percentage of the episodes.  So to it's pretty clear Vel and Cinta, and to a lesser extent Syril, are getting screen time largely for the purposes of keeping their actors in the "main cast".

Still, this is so much better than anything else Disney is done that I don't want to seem like I'm dissing the show.   There are just a few little problems that to me keep it from being 10/10 and which I think if corrected would have also made the show more accessible to the 20% or so of Star Wars fans that don't appreciate it, and to the much wider audience of non-Star Wars nerds that are like going "I tried to watch it but I fell asleep".


----------



## Rabulias

Dioltach said:


> Dantooine, they said.



Who said? I must have missed it. All I heard was Cassian asking if they could make it to Gangi Moon.


Celebrim said:


> Aside from the stunted story line, I really think the other problem the TV series has is the "main cast" problem making these sorts of TV series.  In order to get an actor/actress to sign a TV series like this, they have to have assurance that they are part of the "main cast".  Main cast billing requires that they appear in a certain percentage of the episodes.  So to it's pretty clear Vel and Cinta, and to a lesser extent Syril, are getting screen time largely for the purposes of keeping their actors in the "main cast".



They must have large roles to play in season 2, otherwise, why do it?


----------



## Dioltach

Rabulias said:


> Who said? I must have missed it. All I heard was Cassian asking if they could make it to Gangi Moon.



Is that what he said? I heard it as Dantooine.


----------



## Nikosandros

Dioltach said:


> Is that what he said? I heard it as Dantooine.



The subtitles say "Gangi Moon".


----------



## Enevhar Aldarion

Hussar said:


> Well, really, what would be the immediate aftermath?  There's going to be a massacre.  We don't really need to see that on screen do we?  It's not like there's any chance that Ferrix will stage some sort of successful rebellion.  And the Rebel Alliance isn't a thing yet, so, it's not like Ferrix is going to get any help.  Fast forwarding a year seems like a pretty decent idea.




Also a year's worth of Mon's dealings with the Senate and her husband and daughter. And a year's worth of Dedra hunting Cassian and the other rebels. And a year's worth of Syril and his obsessions. The last two could go somewhat quiet if all the rebels just disappear, but a year in politics is forever and so much could happen.


----------



## Older Beholder

Celebrim said:


> I'm convinced a lot of the shows problems come down to the script was originally written for a 5 season story arc and Diego Luna pulled out of the 8 year commitment that implied and they've had to pare down the script to just two seasons.




I can‘t help but think that would have meant we got the first 3 eps as season 1, the heist as S2 and the prison break as S3. If that was the case I’m glad it got made into 2 seasons of 12.

It will also mean that the next 12 eps will be the last 2 seasons, so should have more room. This is all just me speculating based on the idea it was meant to be 5 seasons, who knows?

Personally I thought the show was nothing short of a masterpiece and have complete trust in the writers and people making the show.


----------



## Ryujin

If people are already complaining about it being "uneven" or "slow paced", how would they react to it being stretched over 5 seasons?

I'm good with it the way that it is. I like a slow burn and earned results.


----------



## trappedslider

well, i guess she didn't become just another brick in the wall


----------



## Aeson

"Another insurrection quashed by the brave members of the Imperial Armed Forces. This is why our forces are in your sector, to keep you safe and secure. Report any and all rebellious and seditious activity to your local authorities. Only with your help can we defeat these rebels."
-- Cucker Tarlson


----------



## Dioltach

trappedslider said:


> well, i guess she didn't become just another brick in the wall



I reckon that Maarva would have been happier this way.


----------



## Aeson

Dioltach said:


> I reckon that Maarva would have been happier this way.



Getting to kick ass one more time.


----------



## Dioltach

That Stormtrooper must have been bricking it.


----------



## Aeson

Dioltach said:


> That Stormtrooper must have been bricking it.



They proved they can hit their target if there are enough unarmed people around.


----------



## MarkB

Get your official Maarva lego figurine in time for Christmas.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Celebrim said:


> There is likewise no reason for Vel to have been a part of the story since the end of episode 6, and we really didn't need a shot of Cinta between episode 7 and episode 11.



In the last episode those two just kind of milled around doing nothing. They could have at least had some kind of confrontation with Andor at the hotel.

Talking of which, did Andor find Luthen's ship because he parked it in the same place? That's minus superspy points for him.


----------



## Hussar

trappedslider said:


> this is what I thought of when they started marching toward the imperials



They've always had a pretty strong Les Mis theme running all the way through the show.


----------



## Aeson

I got the feeling this show was more about showing life under Imperial rule. They threw action and intrigue in to spice it up a bit.


----------



## Ryujin

Aeson said:


> I got the feeling this show was more about showing life under Imperial rule. They threw action and intrigue in to spice it up a bit.



I'd say there's also more than a little Russian Revolution to it. you may make the proles angry enough to rebel, however, it's the landed Middle Class who push the revolution forward and fund it.


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> In the last episode those two just kind of milled around doing nothing. They could have at least had some kind of confrontation with Andor at the hotel.



Agreed. Cinta should have had more to do than kill the undercover Imperial agent.



Paul Farquhar said:


> Talking of which, did Andor find Luthen's ship because he parked it in the same place? That's minus superspy points for him.



I noticed that as well ... but I suppose it's possible Luthen parked his ship in the same place because he _wanted _Andor to come find him.


----------



## Rabulias

Older Beholder said:


> It will also mean that the next 12 eps will be the last 2 seasons, so should have more room. This is all just me speculating based on the idea it was meant to be 5 seasons, who knows



As I understand it, season 2 will cover the next four years leading right up to _Rogue One_, with each year covered by three episodes. These stories will be condensed from and/or highlights from the original 5 year plan.


----------



## Mallus

Paul Farquhar said:


> In the last episode those two just kind of milled around doing nothing.



I think they showed the cost of being rebel insurgents, ie it cost them their relationship. They illustrated Luthen’s soliloquy to the mole.

I like that. In an inferior work, Cinta would never have made it off Aldhani.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Mallus said:


> I think they showed the cost of being rebel insurgents, ie it cost them their relationship.



Without the rebellion, they wouldn't have had a relationship in the first place. I didn't see anything beyond the normal strains of a relationship with someone you also work with.


Mallus said:


> They illustrated Luthen’s soliloquy to the mole.



Not really. The idle rich and people with little to live for often jump at the chance of rebellion. It gives them something to live for that they wouldn't otherwise have.


Mallus said:


> I like that. In an inferior work, Cinta would never have made it off Aldhani.



Given that she didn't do anything afterwards, the "inferior work" would have been right. A "superior work" would have given her something to do.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

pukunui said:


> I noticed that as well ... but I suppose it's possible Luthen parked his ship in the same place because he _wanted _Andor to come find him.



He looked very surprised then!


----------



## pukunui

Paul Farquhar said:


> He looked very surprised then!



Luthen’s a good actor. He could have been feigning surprise so Cassian wouldn’t realize his move had been anticipated.


----------



## Justice and Rule

Paul Farquhar said:


> This. It was well written and well-acted, and there was nothing like enough of it.
> 
> Instead, we got irrelevant and incoherent snapshots of Cassian's childhood, and a missing sister subplot that went nowhere.




What was incoherent or irrelevant? It all informs us of where Cassian came from and what he's about. He doesn't need these things to feel bad about leaving Maarva or caring deeply about Maarva, but they do give us an expanded context about their relationship, who they were, and why they feel the way they feel. They are hardly irrelevant.

And it's okay for some things to not be resolved. If anything, it adds to the realism of the entire situation: sometimes life interrupts what you want to do and changes everything. Cass killed a person, and that changed everything about where he was and where he was going; that doesn't mean it wasn't meaningful, it just means that he hasn't been able to get back to it. Perhaps he never gets back to it, but that doesn't make it irrelevant, it just means his life has changed in such a way that he can't or he doesn't desire to.


----------



## Hussar

Justice and Rule said:


> What was incoherent or irrelevant? It all informs us of where Cassian came from and what he's about. He doesn't need these things to feel bad about leaving Maarva or caring deeply about Maarva, but they do give us an expanded context about their relationship, who they were, and why they feel the way they feel. They are hardly irrelevant.
> 
> And it's okay for some things to not be resolved. If anything, it adds to the realism of the entire situation: sometimes life interrupts what you want to do and changes everything. Cass killed a person, and that changed everything about where he was and where he was going; that doesn't mean it wasn't meaningful, it just means that he hasn't been able to get back to it. Perhaps he never gets back to it, but that doesn't make it irrelevant, it just means his life has changed in such a way that he can't or he doesn't desire to.



I imagine that at some point in Season 2, it will become a thing again.

If the arcs that are mentioned above are correct - with the 4 years being covered by 3 ep stories each, then I imagine that one of those four years will resolve this.  

I do kinda like this plan though.  Each year is sort of a mini-movie - more or less a 90 minute movie leading up to the movie.  Very cool idea.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

I really do not like plot threads that are unresolved at the end of a season. Because frankly, cancelation is more probable than renewal, circumstances can force cast changes, and we know from experience that some plot threads simply get forgotten about.


----------



## Aeson

The first two episodes are available on Hulu for a limited time. This is a chance for those without Disney + to check it out.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Aeson said:


> The first two episodes are available on Hulu for a limited time. This is a chance for those without Disney + to check it out.



Odd choice for a show that doesn't get interesting until episode 3.


----------



## Ryujin

Paul Farquhar said:


> Odd choice for a show that doesn't get interesting until episode 3.



In Canada, Hulu shows are on Disney+. Disney owns Hulu.


----------



## Aeson

Paul Farquhar said:


> Odd choice for a show that doesn't get interesting until episode 3.



That might be true, but the show starts with episode 1. In that case it makes perfect sense.


----------



## MarkB

Aeson said:


> That might be true, but the show starts with episode 1. In that case it makes perfect sense.



I think the intent was that they should have shown three episodes instead of 2, which would make sense since the show is structured into 3-episode mini-arcs.


----------



## Justice and Rule

Paul Farquhar said:


> Odd choice for a show that doesn't get interesting until episode 3.




I think it's interesting before then because the build it good, but Episode 3 is so important because build is nothing without execution. Episode 3 shows they can execute on the world they are building and makes everything work. It's a weird decision, and I wonder if it is somehow influenced by TV run times (I thought I heard they were going to run it on ABC and FX as well). Maybe they'll run 3-4 as a pair?


----------



## Hussar

Length of episodes makes a lot more sense if they’re going to run this on network tv. Gotta make time for commercials.


----------



## Zaukrie

Great episode. So well written.

I expected a lot more of the senator's story.... And the two women rebels didn't really do anything the last few episodes.


----------



## Ryujin

I can't remember seeing this posted previously, but perhaps I missed it. Someone pieced together the music from the opening credits and turns out that it's the funeral march.


----------



## MarkB

I came across this compilation of visuals from Andor the other day. Really emphasises how beautiful this series is.


----------



## pukunui

Ryujin said:


> I can't remember seeing this posted previously, but perhaps I missed it. Someone pieced together the music from the opening credits and turns out that it's the funeral march.



Yes.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Aeson said:


> That might be true, but the show starts with episode 1. In that case it makes perfect sense.



Perfect sense if you want people to decide that it's a boring show in which nothing happens.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> I can't remember seeing this posted previously, but perhaps I missed it. Someone pieced together the music from the opening credits and turns out that it's the funeral march.



I noticed that - the opening music is pretty clearly funerial anyway. Which makes sense, since we know Andor dies.


----------



## Hussar

MarkB said:


> I came across this compilation of visuals from Andor the other day. Really emphasises how beautiful this series is.



Heh, watched that and didn't realize just how much time we spend looking at the back of people's heads.  

But, man, that is pretty.  Say what you like about Star Wars - some of it is good, some of it is bad, but man, ALL of it is achingly pretty.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

MarkB said:


> I came across this compilation of visuals from Andor the other day. Really emphasises how beautiful this series is.



Brutiful!

Did someone post the Andor 1975 fan TV intro yet?


----------



## Dioltach

Apart from the last couple of action shots, that fan intro does an excellent job of making it look like a show with a 1970s BBC budget: all story and acting, no sets or effects (or at least nothing that couldn't be filmed in an old quarry or using a polystyrene model).


----------



## Ryujin

Dioltach said:


> Apart from the last couple of action shots, that fan intro does an excellent job of making it look like a show with a 1970s BBC budget: all story and acting, no sets or effects (or at least nothing that couldn't be filmed in an old quarry or using a polystyrene model).



Reminded me more of things like "Buck Rogers" and "Genesis 2."


_EDIT_ Anyone recognize the name of the lead character from another, later Roddenberry spawned project?


----------



## Dioltach

MarkB said:


> I came across this compilation of visuals from Andor the other day. Really emphasises how beautiful this series is.



The show has such amazing storytelling, acting and dialogue that it's easy to miss just how great the visuals are.


----------



## Zaukrie

I know I've already posted this in the thread, but, wow, great tv. Seriously love this show now that we aren't getting flashbacks.....so good.


----------



## Mustrum_Ridcully

Ryujin said:


> Reminded me more of things like "Buck Rogers" and "Genesis 2."
> 
> 
> _EDIT_ Anyone recognize the name of the lead character from another, later Roddenberry spawned project?



Hercules in Space! Also known as Andromeda. Arguably, until Sorbo took full control, it had a pretty neat story and setting, but when he drove away key writers it became less interesting... Never watched the final season, I think.


----------



## Snarf Zagyg

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Hercules in Space! Also known as Andromeda. Arguably, until Sorbo took full control, it had a pretty neat story and setting, but when he drove away key writers it became less interesting... Never watched the final season, I think.




There were a few promising, but ultimately terribly unsatisfying, "UHF" scifi shows in the 90s.

The two that spring to mind are always Earth:Final Conflict and Andromeda.

Both shows had really good first seasons (especially for the time), and then completely cratered after that.

You point out what happened with Andromeda (Sorbo seizing more control and marginalizing the writers and actors that made the show ... you know ... good). An even greater tragedy, in my opinion, was E:FC. It was also based on a Rodenberry idea.

The first season was genuinely good and intriguing for its time ... not great, but solid and had a few episodes that showed you the potential. And then ...  there was an issue with the main actor (Kevin Kilner) and they went in a terrible and stupid direction. It went from a good and intriguing show to one of the worst things on television.


----------



## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Hercules in Space! Also known as Andromeda. Arguably, until Sorbo took full control, it had a pretty neat story and setting, but when he drove away key writers it became less interesting... Never watched the final season, I think.




Having seen both I'm pretty sure that the original idea for "Andromeda" was first shown in "Genesis II." Both are Roddenberry-based projects. Both involve a man who has been effectively frozen in time until long past when his world has ended. Both involve bad guys who are arguably superior to regular humans. I would say that of the two, "Genesis II" was the better property. Not only was Lyra-a (Mariette Hartley) 
hot and had two navels, but the movie also had Lurch the Butler (Ted Cassidy) in a starring role.



Snarf Zagyg said:


> There were a few promising, but ultimately terribly unsatisfying, "UHF" scifi shows in the 90s.
> 
> The two that spring to mind are always Earth:Final Conflict and Andromeda.
> 
> Both shows had really good first seasons (especially for the time), and then completely cratered after that.
> 
> You point out what happened with Andromeda (Sorbo seizing more control and marginalizing the writers and actors that made the show ... you know ... good). An even greater tragedy, in my opinion, was E:FC. It was also based on a Rodenberry idea.
> 
> The first season was genuinely good and intriguing for its time ... not great, but solid and had a few episodes that showed you the potential. And then ...  there was an issue with the main actor (Kevin Kilner) and they went in a terrible and stupid direction. It went from a good and intriguing show to one of the worst things on television.



Don't forget about "TekWar." Created by Captain Kirk. Starring BJ, but no Bear, and also featuring a rather young Andromeda.


----------



## Paul Farquhar

Dioltach said:


> Apart from the last couple of action shots, that fan intro does an excellent job of making it look like a show with a 1970s BBC budget: all story and acting, no sets or effects (or at least nothing that couldn't be filmed in an old quarry or using a polystyrene model).



If they got anything wrong, it's the choice of font for the credits. Too modern.

Still slow, compared to Space 1999...

The font is similar, but not quite right...


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## trappedslider




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## Paul Farquhar

trappedslider said:


>



It might of been fun if Luthen had discussed the significance of the headdress with a customer. Something along the lines of "it's an ancient Nubian courting helmet". But Andor doesn't do fun.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully

Some people here and elsewhere wonder if Luthien might be a former Jedi (or even Sith). It's possible, but here is my reasoning why within Andor's more "grounded" feeling it would be wrong:
The time for Jedi to save the day comes later, after the ordinary people have done the basics. The Rebellion's foundation and growth must be based on the expressed will of the oppressed, the victims of the Empire starting to resist, not the whims of a superpowered individual. Only then does the legitimacy exist for what is basically a superhero to help them accomplish their goal. It's already the will of the people for the Empire to end, they just can't do it alone because the Empire is lead by a supervillain, too.

If the Jedi basically manipulate the Rebellion into existence, it loses legitimacy. Of course, some would point out that it's a symmetry, a Sith manipulated the Empire into existence, a Jedi manipulates the Rebellion to defeat it. But I think it violates the spirit of the Jedi being the good guys. The Sith do things because they want to serve their own interests,  the Jedi do things to serve the interests of the people. For a correct symmetry, the Rebellion has to be started and organized by "ordinary" folk.

I could be wrong, of course, then you can all laugh and point.


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## Nikosandros

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> I could be wrong, of course, then you can all laugh and point.



IDK if your are right or not, but I love your take.


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## Ryujin

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Some people here and elsewhere wonder if Luthien might be a former Jedi (or even Sith). It's possible, but here is my reasoning why within Andor's more "grounded" feeling it would be wrong:
> The time for Jedi to save the day comes later, after the ordinary people have done the basics. The Rebellion's foundation and growth must be based on the expressed will of the oppressed, the victims of the Empire starting to resist, not the whims of a superpowered individual. Only then does the legitimacy exist for what is basically a superhero to help them accomplish their goal. It's already the will of the people for the Empire to end, they just can't do it alone because the Empire is lead by a supervillain, too.
> 
> If the Jedi basically manipulate the Rebellion into existence, it loses legitimacy. Of course, some would point out that it's a symmetry, a Sith manipulated the Empire into existence, a Jedi manipulates the Rebellion to defeat it. But I think it violates the spirit of the Jedi being the good guys. The Sith do things because they want to serve their own interests,  the Jedi do things to serve the interests of the people. For a correct symmetry, the Rebellion has to be started and organized by "ordinary" folk.
> 
> I could be wrong, of course, then you can all laugh and point.



I absolutely agree with this. The Jedi are supposed to serve, not lead. And it makes sense that a dealer in antiquities not only knows about Lightsabres, but has an understanding of how Kyber Crystal tech works (talking about his ship-borne "lightsabres" here).


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## Rabulias

Luthen's past, Jedi or not, is something I hope they can touch on more in season 2. @Celebrim and @Mustrum_Ridcully both make great cases on the both sides of the Luthen Jedi question. I don't know if it is intentional, but I love that the show has hints to support both arguments.


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## pukunui

The sh


Rabulias said:


> Luthen's past, Jedi or not, or something I hope they can touch on more in season 2. @Celebrim and @Mustrum_Ridcully both make great cases on the both sides of the Luthen Jedi question. I don't know if it is intentional, but I love that the show has hints to support both arguments.



As I mentioned somewhere upthread, Tony Gilroy (Andor's showrunner) has stated that Luthen's backstory will be revealed on the show.


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## Paul Farquhar

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Some people here and elsewhere wonder if Luthien might be a former Jedi (or even Sith). It's possible, but here is my reasoning why within Andor's more "grounded" feeling it would be wrong:
> The time for Jedi to save the day comes later, after the ordinary people have done the basics. The Rebellion's foundation and growth must be based on the expressed will of the oppressed, the victims of the Empire starting to resist, not the whims of a superpowered individual. Only then does the legitimacy exist for what is basically a superhero to help them accomplish their goal. It's already the will of the people for the Empire to end, they just can't do it alone because the Empire is lead by a supervillain, too.
> 
> If the Jedi basically manipulate the Rebellion into existence, it loses legitimacy. Of course, some would point out that it's a symmetry, a Sith manipulated the Empire into existence, a Jedi manipulates the Rebellion to defeat it. But I think it violates the spirit of the Jedi being the good guys. The Sith do things because they want to serve their own interests,  the Jedi do things to serve the interests of the people. For a correct symmetry, the Rebellion has to be started and organized by "ordinary" folk.
> 
> I could be wrong, of course, then you can all laugh and point.



I agree. It has also been mentioned that a Luthien toy 



Spoiler



the assumed-to be a lightsabre he carries actually contains a regular concealed blade.



My feeling is Luthien-jedi is a deliberate fake-out.


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## Paul Farquhar

Ryujin said:


> has an understanding of how Kyber Crystal tech works (talking about his ship-borne "lightsabres" here).



One way Luthien might have Kyber weapons on his ship is if he has a history with Galen Erso. It's already confirmed that Saw Gerrera is a mutual acquaintance.


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## MarkB

Paul Farquhar said:


> One way Luthien might have Kyber weapons on his ship is if he has a history with Galen Erso. It's already confirmed that Saw Gerrera is a mutual acquaintance.



Or they might not be lightsaber tech at all. The LAAT gunships in the clone wars had composite-beam lasers that were functionally similar to those on Luthen's ship, and they were mass-produced.


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## Ryujin

MarkB said:


> Or they might not be lightsaber tech at all. The LAAT gunships in the clone wars had composite-beam lasers that were functionally similar to those on Luthen's ship, and they were mass-produced.



But Luthen has already been shown to have access to at least one Kyber Crystal, which is what makes me think that might be the tech involved.


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## Rabulias

Paul Farquhar said:


> I agree. It has also been mentioned that a Luthien toy
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the assumed-to be a lightsabre he carries actually contains a regular concealed blade.



I think we have seen in the show that it is a collapsible walking stick. It may also serve as weapon but we have not seen it used as such so far.


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## Celebrim

Rabulias said:


> I think we have seen in the show that it is a collapsible walking stick. It may also serve as weapon but we have not seen it used as such so far.




I believe the blade was shown in episode 2 or 3.

It's important to consider that the toy maker is making the two based off what was revealed to them in footage given to them for the first episode.  The fact that Luthen's collapsible walking stick also has a concealed blade in the hilt does not explain Luthen's behavior or the writer's continually reminding us of the existence of his accessory.   

Luthen's stick at the least is his "James Bond" toy.  He values it as something more than a walking stick with a concealed vibro-knife in the hilt.  It's part of his signature and his persona, and the writers really don't want the audience to forget it.

So they have a plan for it of some such, and it's not just for hiking.


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## MarkB

Celebrim said:


> I believe the blade was shown in episode 2 or 3.
> 
> It's important to consider that the two maker is making the two based off what was revealed to them in footage given to them for the first episode.  The fact that Luthen's collapsible walking stick also has a concealed blade in the hilt does not explain Luthen's behavior or the writer's continually reminding us of the existence of his accessory.
> 
> Luthen's stick at the least is his "James Bond" toy.  He values it as something more than a walking stick with a concealed vibro-knife in the hilt.  It's part of his signature and his persona, and the writers really don't want the audience to forget it.
> 
> So they have a plan for it of some such, and it's not just for hiking.



Is it really that prominent? I saw it when it was highlighted in the frisking scene when he visited Saw, but I have no conscious memory of having seen it in any other scene. Certainly I wouldn't consider it as having been continually brought to light.


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## Ryujin

Celebrim said:


> I believe the blade was shown in episode 2 or 3.
> 
> It's important to consider that the two maker is making the two based off what was revealed to them in footage given to them for the first episode.  The fact that Luthen's collapsible walking stick also has a concealed blade in the hilt does not explain Luthen's behavior or the writer's continually reminding us of the existence of his accessory.
> 
> Luthen's stick at the least is his "James Bond" toy.  He values it as something more than a walking stick with a concealed vibro-knife in the hilt.  It's part of his signature and his persona, and the writers really don't want the audience to forget it.
> 
> So they have a plan for it of some such, and it's not just for hiking.



It has a certain "Chekov's Gun" feel to it.


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## pukunui

I just rewatched the finale with my girls, who hadn’t seen it yet.

I got the sense that the Imp commander let the funeral and Maarva’s recording go on for as long as he did because he was trying to buy Dedra more time to find Cassian.

Also, I noticed that Luthen’s name was misspelled as “Luthan” in the end credits.


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## trappedslider

pukunui said:


> Also, I noticed that Luthen’s name was misspelled as “Luthan” in the end credits.



confirmed Star Wars is ruined forever now.


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## MarkB

pukunui said:


> I just rewatched the finale with my girls, who hadn’t seen it yet.
> 
> I got the sense that the Imp commander let the funeral and Maarva’s recording go on for as long as he did because he was trying to buy Dedra more time to find Cassian.



That, and waiting as long as he did to order lethal force once things kicked off. Dedra was very specific about nobody risking shooting Cassian.


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## Paul Farquhar

MarkB said:


> That, and waiting as long as he did to order lethal force once things kicked off. Dedra was very specific about nobody risking shooting Cassian.



If you think about it, had the Empire actually succeeded in capturing Andor, or Luthen, or even Val it would have been well worth the funeral debacle.


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