# (IRR) The Other Industrial Revolutions



## Creamsteak (May 11, 2002)

This is a thread to talk about having an Industrial Refolution in Rokugan. I will try and explain what I was thinking about.

It is also for Forsaken Ones game, and Anabsters game. They should talk about thier stuff also.


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## Tokiwong (May 11, 2002)

Rokugan sounds cool... ooooh.... can I be the Crane can I.. can I... or the Unicorn... oh joy... Long live the Moto...


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## Tokiwong (May 11, 2002)

I would be interested on being at the ground zero of this project... hell if no oen else wants to I coudl try the moderation madness...


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## Anabstercorian (May 11, 2002)

There was a world, once.

Now, that world is dying.

This world is a world of magic and endless power, but it has been crushed under its own weight and vast wars.

Storms are brewing, Stormgates connecting this world... to another world.

In this other world, magic is unknown, and there is only one sentient species - Humanity.  They live on the brink of nuclear extinction, on the knifeedge of nuclear war.  Conspiracies control nations, Metal Gears hold nuclear bullets to the heads of a planet.  Heroes are all but unknown.

Earth is about to meet a dead world.  In the seas, in the skies of Earth, vast storms are brewing.  Other worlds are about to step through, in to Earth, and conflict will result.  The conspiracies of earth will struggle against the naked power of elven magic, dwarven smithery, and orcish savagery.

A dark cult is arising on Earth, the cult of the Demipower Melkor, the bleak lord of Oblivion.  What are they?

A vast conflict is about to enter Earth.

On the side of Earth are the nations and the conspiracies.  The Patriots, controlling most of the western hemisphere.  The Cult of Melkor, controlling vast hordes of crazed cultists ready to die for Nothing.  The Academians, corporate spies representing the secret power structure of the Universities across the world.  CalTech, MIT, Brown, Harvard, all are member of the Academians, who control vast influence and creative power.  The Illuminati, who desire to control the world with their ruthless, Illuminated Eye.

On the side of Otherworld, there are the Elves, magical arcanists who live centuries.  There are the Dwarves, miners who live beneath the earth and are blessed with incredible martial skill.  There are the Orcs, savage humanoids who desire to send all of Earth in to pre-civilized feral glory.  There are the Dragons, an ancient race who lives in secret, burns with fire, and bows to no one.

And far to the side are the Planars.  The Angels, the Daemons, the Slaadi, and the Formians, representing Good, Evil, Chaos, and Law.  The Elementals.  The Ethereal.  The Astral.

Pick a side and prepare for havoc.


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## Sollir Furryfoot (May 11, 2002)

As I said creamsteak, I volunteer to play Daigotsu, Lord of the Shadowlands


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## Creamsteak (May 11, 2002)

Well where should I look for Daigotsu in my book? I know where most of the information is... and I have to work on some lists posts and so forth. Tokiwong, if you know a lot more about the story, then you can be moderator. I'll find some group to be. I was working on some rules, I'll post them below, tell me what you think. Keep in mind that I'm Betaing stuff right now.

Well... the below file doesn't show everything lined up right, so use the word version that I will attach in yet a third post in a row.


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## Creamsteak (May 11, 2002)

*The Rokugan Industrial Revolution*

The Rokugan Industrial Revolution is a strategy game based on the Rokugan Campaign Setting. The concepts, ideas, and references are all based on the Oriental Adventures D20 sourcebook. This add-on book is the only resource a player needs in order to fully understand the Rokugan Industrial Revolution. Wars will be fought with magic, technological, and teeth in order to bring sanctity or ruin to the world.

*Rule #1: The Industrial Arms Race*

The Industrial Arms Race is the basis for gaining power in this game. Your rank in the Industrial Arms Race shows how fast you can train troops; build weapons, and research magic. Each school, country, and army you claim will have an Industrial Rank between 1 and 21 to start. Each of these Ranks represents a certain degree of industrialization. A Clan School has a Rank of 10, while a minor town has a rank of 1. The different Industrial Ranks of different territories will be in the first lists post.

Your Industrial Rating also determines how much food your infrastructure can accommodate. Namely, your PL cannot exceed triple your Industrial Rank without causing starvation. Starvation affects your Attack/Defense scores (see rule #4).

The Industrial Rank (IR) of each territory determines how much strength a territory can produce per turn. Below is a table that shows exactly how high your Industrial Rank needs to be in order to produce a different amount of PL per turn. The Equation I chose is the simplest diminishing returns formula you can use:

x(1/2x + 0.5) = Rank Required
Where x = the PL production per turn

Rank	PL Increase (Per Turn)	Rank	PL Increase Per Turn
0	+0	351	+26
1	+1	378	+27
3	+2	406	+28
6	+3	435	+29
10	+4	465	+30
15	+5	496	+31
21	+6	528	+32
28	+7	561	+33
36	+8	595	+34
45	+9	630	+35
55	+10	666	+36
66	+11	703	+37
78	+12	741	+38
91	+13	780	+39
105	+14	820	+40
120	+15	861	+41
136	+16	903	+42
153	+17	946	+43
171	+18	990	+44
190	+19	1035	+45
210	+20	1081	+46
231	+21	1128	+47
253	+22	1176	+48
276	+23	1225	+49
300	+24	1275	+50
325	+25	1326	+51

Earlier I said that territories start with only a Rank from 1-21. So how do Ranks go down to 0 or above 21? Well, that can be solved by a number of methods. In the IR you must spend Power Level (PL) each turn in order to increase your Industrial Rating (IR). There are a number of factors that affect this. Below is a table that describes the most common methods of altering your IR.

Industrial Arms Modifier	Rank Change
Spending 10 PL to advance your Rank	+1 to each territory
Gaining 10th Level Magic	+10 to each territory
Gaining 11th Level Magic	+100 to each territory
Gaining 12th Level Magic	+1000 to each territory
War Damage (fighting occurred here)	-2 per 10 PL fighting
Nuclear or Cataclysm Level Damage	-10 per Nuke/Cataclysm
Thermonuclear or 11th Level Disaster	-100 per Nuke/Disaster
Anti-Matter Strike or 12th Level Assault	-1000 per Strike/Assault

Now the above is also a teaser. It shoes you that your power can gain technological weapons, and upper level magic. That will be detailed in the next two rules.

*Rule #2: The Technological Arms Race*

Technology is just as important as Magic in the Rokugan IR. You must understand that in order to understand just how an Anti-Matter Strike would be just as decimating as a 12th Level Magic Assault. Developing Technology can improve your overall power in the IR and is second only to the Industrialization Rating (IR) in importance. 

Each power selects a School to research each turn. There are eight starting schools. These are Construction, Chemistry, Computers, Physics, Power, Sociology, Biology, and Fields. These schools raise your ratings in each sub-race.

The Technological Arms Race is divided into these sub-races:  Agriculture, Attack, Defense, Espionage, Industry, and Research. You can develop a new school of research (ecology, quantum physics, etc.) that has different Technology subraces. Doing this takes a full turn, and the modifiers cannot exceed an 8. Negative modifiers can be applied, but no more than –2. No one score can go up by more than 4 in one turn.

Technology Subraces	Agr.	Att.	Def.	Esp.	Ind.	Res.
Construction	0	0	4	0	4	0
Chemistry	2	2	2	0	2	0
Computers	0	0	0	4	0	4
Physics	1	4	1	1	1	0
Power	0	4	0	0	4	0
Sociology	2	0	0	4	0	2
Biology	4	2	2	0	0	0
Fields	0	2	4	2	0	0

As your power advances, you will gain certain advantages in each core group. The first noticeable advancement does not occur until your score reaches at least 5. 

Agriculture – (Affects do not stack)
5 – Every Territory under your control produces 4x its industrial rating in food.
15 – Every Territory under your control produces 5x its industrial rating in food.
30 – Every Territory under your control produces 6x its industrial rating in food.
50 – Every Territory under your control produces 7x its industrial rating in food.
75 – Every Territory under your control produces 8x its industrial rating in food.
105 – Every Territory under your control produces 9x its industrial rating in food.
140 – Every Territory under your control produces 10x its industrial rating in food.

Attack – (Affects do not stack)
5 – Your Attack score becomes +1 (see rule #4)
15 – Your Attack score becomes +2
30 – Your Attack score becomes +3
50 – Your Attack score becomes +4 and Nuclear weapons become available.
75 – Your Attack score becomes +5
105 – Your Attack score becomes +6
140 – Your Attack score becomes +7 and thermonuclear weapons become available.
180 – Your Attack score becomes +8
225 – Your Attack score becomes +9
275 – Your Attack score becomes +10 and anti-matter weapons become available.

Defense – (Affects do not stack)
5 – Your Defense score becomes +1 (see rule #4)
15 – Your Defense score becomes +2
30 – Your Defense score becomes +3
50 – Your Defense score becomes +4
75 – Your Defense score becomes +5
105 – Your Defense score becomes +6
140 – Your Defense score becomes +7
180 – Your Defense score becomes +8
225 – Your Defense score becomes +9
275 – Your Defense score becomes +10

Espionage – (Affects DO stack)
5 – You gain a 5% chance to find out another powers template. You gain a 5% defense against such actions.
15 – You gain a 10% chance to find out another powers template. You gain a 10% defense against such actions.
30 – You gain a 15% chance to find out another powers template. You gain a 15% defense against such actions.
50 – You gain a 20% chance to find out another powers template. You gain a 20% defense against such actions.
75 – You gain a 25% chance to find out another powers template. You gain a 25% defense against such actions.
105 – You gain a 30% chance to find out another powers template. You gain a 30% defense against such actions.

Industry – (Affects do not stack)
5 – Every Territory under your control gains an additional +1 PL per turn.
15 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +3 PL per turn.
30 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +6 PL per turn.
50 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +10 PL per turn.
75 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +15 PL per turn.
105 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +21 PL per turn.
140 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +28 PL per turn.
180 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +36 PL per turn.
225 – Every Territory under your control produces an additional +45 PL per turn.

Research – (Affects do stack)
5 – All research sub-races gain a +1 per turn. You develop the first computers.
15 – All research sub-races gain a +1 per turn. You develop the calculator. Bomb safety devices designed.
30 – All research sub-races gain a +1 per turn. You develop the Internet. Computer guided weapons are designed.
50 – All research sub-races gain a +1 per turn. You develop nano-computers. Gain +1 PL per turn.
75 – All research sub-races gain a +1 per turn. You develop Artificial Intelligence. Constructs self replicate.
105 – All research sub races become 4 per turn base. Your Attack/Defense scores both gain +2.
140 – All research sub-races become 6 per turn base.
180 – All research sub-races become 8 per turn base. Your Attack/Defense scores both gain +2.
225 – All research sub races become 10 per turn base.

*Rule #3: The Magic Arms Race*

Magic is secondary to science. You can choose to develop magic as and will find its affects devastating if you earn them. Magic is costly, however. You can gain Magic Arms Race Points by doing the following:

Spend 10 PL on research this turn. You lose 2 PL permanently. You gain 1 point in the Magic Arms Race.
Spend 10 PL on research this turn. You lose 4 PL permanently. You gain 2 points in the Magic Arms Race.
Spend 10 PL on research this turn. You lose 6 PL permanently. You gain 3 points in the Magic Arms Race.
Spend 10 PL on research this turn. You lose 8 PL permanently. You gain 4 points in the Magic Arms Race.
Spend 10 PL on research this turn. You lose 10 PL permanently. You gain 5 points in the Magic Arms Race.

You can choose to spend more than 10 PL. You must, however, spend in 10 PL increments. The more of your power you sacrifice, the faster your rate of gain will be. What do points in the Magic Arms race do for you?

Well, first of all, a power with 10th level magic can block nukes from damaging them. 10th Level magic can affect major changes on a small territory, or minor changes on a medium area. The exact list of things you can do with 10th level magic will be provided when and if a player gains it.

With 11th Level Magic, a power can perform 11th Level Attacks. These kinds of attacks can wipe out entire nations and cripple those power that do not have 11th level magic to defend them. Expect research on such a subject to take many turns, even with multiple powers organizing it.

With 12th Level Magic, you can challenge entire crystal spheres. You can choose to launch attacks that are 10x greater than any attack made by an 11th level power. You will only encounter 12th level magic if a player manages to reach its incredibly shocking requirements.

A rank of 500 in the Magic Arms Race earns a power 10th Level Magic. 
A rank of 25,000 in the Magic Arms Race earns a power 11th Level Magic.
A rank of 625,000 in the Magic Arms Race earns a power 12th Level Magic.

The cost is incredible, and the explanation is lacking: but expect 10th-12th level magic to be worth its incredible cost.

11th Level Magic won the last IR. It would require a player to sacrifice 125,000 PL in order to produce 12th. 

*Rule #4: Attack and Defense*

The fourth rule is the most important rule when two powers disagree. Wars are fought and won with armies, and in the IR it is no exception. This rule is the focal point of most of the IR, until powers gain 11th and 12th level magic. The rule of thumb here is a powers Attack/Defense score.

During an attack, both powers declare how much force they are devoting to the front. This is in PL, which is defined as the basic unit of combat. For each PL in the battle, a D6 is rolled. On a roll of 6, an attack is made. On the defenders side they get a defense (cancels the damage of the attack) on a 6. Then the Defense rolls their attack against the attackers, and the attackers are forced to roll their defense. The final results are reported at the end of a turn.

Each Player has an Attack/Defense score based on their magic and technology. Other modifiers are listed:

All Modifiers Stack:
Player has 10th Level Magic: (+2 Attack/+2 Defense)
Player has 11th Level Magic: (+2 Attack/+2 Defense)
Player has 12th Level Magic: (+2 Attack/+2 Defense)
Player is suffering Starvation: (-2 Attack/-2 Defense)
Player has been poisoned: (-2 Attack/-2 Defense)

Modifiers that do not Stack:
Player is defending a Tower: (+0 Attack/+2 Defense)
Player is defending a Palace: (+1 Attack/+2 Defense)
Player is defending a Castle: (+2 Attack/+3 Defense)
Player is defending a Fort: (+2 Attack/+4 Defense)
Player has set a Trap: (+4 Attack/+0 Defense)


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## Creamsteak (May 11, 2002)

This link contains a word format, should be easier to read than the above, for most of you.


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## Tokiwong (May 11, 2002)

Looks pretty cool going to take some time to familiarize myself with the rules... and everything I know of Rokugan comes from the D20 books so take anything I say with a grain of salt... but if people don't mind having fun.. then yeah I can stab at running a monstrously huge game....


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## Creamsteak (May 12, 2002)

Tokiwong,

Actually if you know a LOT more than me about the campaign setting you should be a player: come to think of it. It would give more fuel to the flame. All I have to do is moderate.

I'll give you the hotseat if you need it.

Black Omega knows some... but so far he just pointed out some from the book. Don't know.

Black Omega,

Are you going to play if we start this up?


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

That works for me either... way... I know alot and well how the oiverall clans operate... and the schemes that can go about... Rokugan is a hotbed for intrigue... warfare and fanciful madness...


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## Creamsteak (May 12, 2002)

If anyone wants to help me out, I need people to type up stuff off the map provided with the book. I'll type up the upper left corner (we will call this A1 temporarily) tonight.

If someone would type up all the names of every town in square A2 (the upper right) that would help. And someone cover B1 (the one below A1) and B2 (the one below A2) tonight and we can get a lists post together soon. I'll do it all myself if I have to, but I have stuff to take care of this weekend, and I have to leave soon enough.


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## Mr. Draco (May 12, 2002)

Anabstercorian, I'll play the academicians.  It sounds like fun. 

Creamsteak, I really don't know much about Rokugan, so I'll stay out of that IR.  Expect me to be a reader though.


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## William Ronald (May 12, 2002)

Creamsteak,

Feel free to use Bugbear's G.I.R.A. site as a resource.  It is at http://bugbearslair.homestead.com/GIRA1.html  and has all the IR threads.  (Or will when he is done archiving them.)

My free time will become shorter, but expect me to pop in at least as an observer.


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## Anabstercorian (May 12, 2002)

Hmmm...  I think I'll actually play in Creamsteaks Rokugan game.  It'll give me an excuse to pick up Oriental Adventures.  I'll use his game as a case study to learn more about running this sort of thing.  'Sides, I've got school now.

But I must ask: *Are there Illithid in Rokugan, and if not, can I add some?*  Illithid are my special friends.


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## Kalanyr (May 12, 2002)

Anab do you mind if I claim the Celestials?


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## Creamsteak (May 12, 2002)

There are no Illthid in Rokugan.

I am making some exceptions from the normal "rokugan" game. I might be adding the prestige classes that are "not" in Rokugan.

I don't know about Illthid: however I could see Anabster dropping in out of nowhere. I'll work on that after I get the damn lists together...

Goes back to typing.


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *There are no Illthid in Rokugan.
> 
> I am making some exceptions from the normal "rokugan" game. I might be adding the prestige classes that are "not" in Rokugan.
> 
> ...




Personally I think Illithid would be bad for the setting.. there are plenty of nasties avialable... but you could make them Shadowlands aligned... but still my gut says no


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## Anabstercorian (May 12, 2002)

Okay, I don't want to damage the integrity of the setting, and the presence of Anabstercorian in his current state would be unbalancing to the game, even if he was my only force.  I'll choose something Illithid-y after I pick up the Oriental Adventures guidebook.

Kalanyr, when I do start my game, you can be the Celestials.

Mr. Draco, when I do start my game, you can be the Academians.


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

Like Black Omega said I would go with clans or at least call them families... it alld epends on how many players you want... Family may be best... and then just use Ronin for everything else


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## Sollir Furryfoot (May 12, 2002)

Daigotsu is near the end of the NPCs area in the Rokugan book that WotC put out...Maho-Tsukai 20 (this is that level 20 PrC, he has no base class except for it), no race, he can send his spirit out to possess any oni, and while such his body is near invincible.  He has a female partner (can't spell it, don't have the book on me) who's a very powerful spellcaster as well.


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## Black Omega (May 12, 2002)

Sollir Furryfoot said:
			
		

> *Daigotsu is near the end of the NPCs area in the Rokugan book that WotC put out...Maho-Tsukai 20 (this is that level 20 PrC, he has no base class except for it), no race, he can send his spirit out to possess any oni, and while such his body is near invincible.  He has a female partner (can't spell it, don't have the book on me) who's a very powerful spellcaster as well. *




Daigotsu is listed in the Rokugan d20 book on page 166.  He's an evil outsider and a Maho-tsukai level 20.  This takes into account that the Maho-tsukai PrC allows level conversion from Shugenja to Maho-tsukai.  Technically, he can possess any oni in line of sight, I believe.  But he can jump from Oni to oni without returning to his body first.

Calling Shahai a partner might be a little generous.    She's cooperating with Daigotsu at the present , though  how long that will last..  Daigotsu is creating a highly lawful mirror of the Emerald Empire in the Shadowlands.  Shahai is the leader of the Bloodspeakers, an evil, highly chaotic group of Maho-tsukai in the Emerald Empire.


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## Black Omega (May 12, 2002)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *Looks pretty cool going to take some time to familiarize myself with the rules... and everything I know of Rokugan comes from the D20 books so take anything I say with a grain of salt... but if people don't mind having fun.. then yeah I can stab at running a monstrously huge game.... *



Well, keeping in mind the Rokugan d20 books are written by the same people writing the L5R storyline you are in pretty decent shape.  

If something is needed typed up I can probably manage.  I have quite a bit typed up already for my game.


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> Well, keeping in mind the Rokugan d20 books are written by the same people writing the L5R storyline you are in pretty decent shape.
> 
> If something is needed typed up I can probably manage.  I have quite a bit typed up already for my game. *




I know that and I still ofer to moderate as needed... I love DMing


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## Edena_of_Neith (May 12, 2002)

Does anyone want any of my advice on how to run IRs?

  I have just a few comments to make, but such advice should be wanted.


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## Kalanyr (May 12, 2002)

Considering that I'm seriously thinking about running a campaign in the Aftermath of the 3rd IR, I'll take any advice you want to give. It may not be an IR but a general idea of how you run things would be good to at least keep a similar theme/feel.


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

Edena_of_Neith said:
			
		

> *Does anyone want any of my advice on how to run IRs?
> 
> I have just a few comments to make, but such advice should be wanted. *




speak up Edena


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## Animus Abdicerer (May 12, 2002)

I'll take a backrow seat to Black Omega or Tokiwong if you two want to DM. I have read the book cover to cover -but only a single time. Afterwards I just kind of glance back and forth over it. The only books I KNOW everything from would be my Final Fantasy Tactics stuff: because I wrote most of it. I need to finish the next chapter of it soon anyway (the weapons and armor chapter  ). So here is what I will do:

Tokiwong is Moderator for the FIRST ROKUGAN IR
Creamsteak will create the Lists post, and Tokiwong will adjust PL as he sees fit.

We will deal with claims when we get done with the lists.

Tokiwong and I will work on the rules (I have a start done... but it isn't nearly hard copy).

and here are the territories I have done from the books. (PL and IR excluded for now, I'll wait before I post that stuff.)

Class and Clan Specific Territories
Title of Territory/School/Family
Kuni School (Shugenja/Witch Hunter)
Hiruma School (Shadow Scout)
Hida Family (Hida Defender)
Asahina School (Shugenja)
Kakita School (Iaijutsu Master)
Daidoji Family (Daidoji Bodyguard)
Tamori School (Shugenja)
Togashi School (Tattooed Monk)
Hitomi School (Tattooed Monk)
Mirumoto Family (Mirumoto Niten Master)
Kitsu School (Shugenja)
Matsu School (Singh Rager)
Akodo Family (Akodo Champion)
Agasha School (Shugenja)
Asako School (Henshin Mystic)
Isawa School (Void Disciple)
Shiba Family (Shiba Protector)
Soshi School (Shugenja)
Yogo School (Shugenja)
Shosoro School (Ninja Spy)
Bayushi Family (Bayushi Deciever)
Iuchi School (Shugenja)
Utaku School (Battle Maiden)
Shinjo School (Kishi Charger)
Moto Family (Moto Avenger)
Mantis School (Mantis Mercenary)
Bear School (Bear Warrior)
Shadowlands (Maho-Bujin)
Shadowlands (Maho-Tsukai)

Territories in the Far South East of Rokugan
Title of Territory/School/Family
Aiso ni Ryokosha (Village)
Bells of the Dead (Shrine)
Festering Pit of Fu Leng (Sinkhole)
Forgotten Tomb of Fu Leng (Maho Site)
Haikyo Sano Kappa (Ruins)
Heiwa na Kaze Heigen (Quiet Wind Plane)
Jukami (Village)
Kabe ue no ho ni sa Umi (Wall above the Ocean)
Kaiu Kabe (Carpenter Wall)
Kaiu Toge (Carpernter Pass)
Kawa Kurai Tsuki (River of the Dark Moon)
Kawa Sano Saigo No Kamae (River of the Last Stand)
Kenkai Hanto (Lookout Peninsula)
Kishi no Mizu-umi (Forbidden Lake)
Koten (Village)
Kuroi Yubi Kawa (Black Finger River)
Kuni Areno (Kuni Wastes)
Kyuden Hida (Palace)
Nishiyama (Village)
Saigo no Kamae Heigen (Last Stand Plain)
Shinden Asahina (Castle)
Shio Senyo no Riku (Tidal Landbridge)
Shiro Hiruma (Castle)
Shiro Kuni (Castle)
Sunda Mizu (City)
Watchtower of the East (Tower)
Yasuki Yashiki (Castle)
Yugure Yama (Twilight Mountains)

Territories in the South West of Rokugan
Title of Territory/School/Family
Aka Mizu-umi (Red Lake)
Beiden (Town)
Dangai (Shrine)
Ginasutra (Village)
Hotei Seido (Shrine)
Iyotishi (Town)
Kagoki (Village)
Kaia Osho (Village)
Kaiu Shiro (Castle)
Kakita Bogu (Village)
Kamisori sano Yoake Shiro (Castle)
Kitsune Mori (Village)
Koeru (Village)
Kuda (Village)
Kyuden Ashinagabachi (Palace)
Kyuden Bayushi (Palace)
Kyuden Miya (Palace)
Maemikake (Town)
Meidochi (Village)
Midaki (Village)
Mizu-umi no o (Lake of Sorrows)
Mizu-umi no Sakura Yuki (Lake of Cherry Blossom Snow)
Nirukti (Ruins)
Ronin Chiiki (Ronin Plains)
Shiden Osano-Wo (Shrine)
Shimomura (Village)
Shinomen Mori (Hidden Forest)
Shiro Heichi (Ruins)
Shiro Kaotsuki no Higashi (Castle)
Siksa (Town)
Taki sano Okami Jikan (Hour of the Wolf Falls)
Tomb of Iuchiban (Maho Site)
Vyakarana (Town)
Watchtower of the West (Tower)
Zakyo (City)


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## Animus Abdicerer (May 12, 2002)

Oh, and the reason for me posting the character classes associated with certain territories is this:

In the IR we posted races (elven, human, dragon, etc.) after each territory to give each player an idea of what forces lived there. In Rokugan I have noticed that 90% of the population is Human except in the wild lands and shadowlands. I figure that clan and class would divide up the culture the same way as race did before.

If nobody wants to see what classes are associated to any families or schools, just tell me and I'll edit it. Tell me if anything like that should be changed, Tokiwong.


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## Gurdjieff (May 12, 2002)

Hmmm, sounds nice 

I don't know if you're already looking for players, but I'd like to


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

Well it all sounds great... question you guys want to run them here or somewhere else... I have a Message Board that works... all the time... no waiting... My Forums....

Either way is cool with me...


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## Black Omega (May 12, 2002)

Animus Abdicerer said:
			
		

> *and here are the territories I have done from the books. (PL and IR excluded for now, I'll wait before I post that stuff.)*




I'm working on stuff for my Rokugan game now so I'll add a little more from the Rokugan d20 book.

Clans followed by the familes with Daimya, favored class and PrC's.  Family Honor is listed on a 1-3 scale with 1 being dishonorable, 2 average, and 3 being honorable.

*Major Clans*

*Crab Clan*
Clan Champion: Hida Kuroda (Male Sam 10) * Current for the book, the storyline has changed this.
Population:  4,590,000 (255,000 Samurai)
*Families*
Hida (Samurai/Hida Defender/Honor 2) Daimyo: Hida Kuroda
Hiruma (Ranger/Shadow Scout/Honor 2) Daimyo:  Hiruma Masagaro (Male Rng 5, Sam 2,  Shadowlands Vet 5)
Kaiu (Samurai/Siegemaster/Honor 2) Daimyo: Kaiu Umasu (Male Sam 5, Siege 10)
Kuni (Shugenja/Witch Hunter/Honor 1) Daimyo:  Kuni Tansho (Female Shu 18)
Toritaka (Fighter/Honor 2) Daimyo:  Toritaka Tatsune (Male Ftr 4/Sam 2/Rng 1/Shadowlands Vet 7)

Note:  Shadowlands Vet is a general PrC strongly associated with the Crab since they are the one's fighting the Shadowlands 24/7.

Note:  The Yasuki were formerly part of the Crab.  They are not a family of the Crane, so I've not listed them here.  I added the Toritaka and Kaiu families to be complete.

*Crane Clan*
Clan Champion:  Doji Kurohito (Male Sam 6/Iaijutsu 5)
Population:  3,780,000 (210,000 Samurai)

*Families*
Doji (Courtier/Honor 3) Daimyo Doji Kurohito
Asahina (Shugenja/Honor 3) Daimyo: Kimita (Female Shu 12)
Daidoji (Fighter/Daidoji Bodyguard/Honor 2) Daimyo: Daidoji Rekai (Female Sam 10/Ftr 10)
Kakita (Samurai or Courtier/Iaijutsu Master/Honor 3) Daimyo: Kakita Kaiten (Male Sam 15)
Yasuki (Fighter/Honor 2) Daimyo Yasuki Hachi (Male Sam 5/Ftr 4)

Note:  I've added the Yasuki and Doji for completeness, and because the Doji actually rule the clan.

*Dragon Clan*
Clan Champion: Togashi Hoshi (Male Unique Half-Dragon Sam 5/Swordmaster 10/Monk 5)
Population:  1,890,000 (105,000 Samurai)

*Families*
Togashi (Inkyo/'Tattooed Monk-ise zumi'/Honor 2) Daimyo: Togashi Hoshi
Hitomi (Monk/'Tattooed Monk-kikage zumi'/Honor 1) Daimyo: Hitomi Kagetora (Male Sam 9/Monk 10)
Kitsuki (Samurai/Honor 3) Daimyo: Kitsuki Mizuochi (Male Sam 13)
Mirumoto (Samurai/Dragon Swordmaster/Honor 2) Daimyo:  Miromoto Uso (Male Sam 9/Swordmaster 8)
Tamori (Shugenja/Honor 2) Daimyo: Tamori Shaitung (Female Shu 16)

Note:  I added the Kitsuki for completeness.

Note: Inkyo is an enlightened monk core class.

Note:  The Rokugan book replaced the Tattooed Monk PrC with guidelines for Inkyo and Monks to gain tattoos.  This is a form of magic so ingrained in the Hitomi and Togashi that at times children are born with tattoos.

*Lion Clan*
Clan Champion:  Matsu Nimuro (Male Sam 15)
Population:  5,400,000 (300,000 Samurai)

*Families*
Akodo (Samurai/Akodo Champion/Honor 3) Daimyo:  Akodo Ginawa (Male Sam 15/Ftr 3)
Ikoma (Courtier/Honor 3) Daimyo:  Ikoma Sume (Male Court 7/Sam 9)
Kitsu (Shugenja/Honor 2) Daimyo: Kitsu Juri (Male Shu 16)
Matsu School (Berzerker/Matsu Rager or Lion's Pride/Honor 2) Daimyo: Matsu Ketsui (Female Sam 7/LionPride 8)

Note:  Ikoma were added for completeness.

Note:  The Singh Rager's name changes to Matsu Rager in Rokugan.  The Bezerker is what the Barbarian class is called in Rokugan.

*Mantis Clan*
Clan Champion: Yoritomo Kitao (Female Ftr 6/Rog 8)
Population: 1,080,000 (60,000 Samurai)

*Families*
Yoritomo (Fighter/Storm Legion/Honor 2) Daimyo: Yoritomo Kitao
Moshi (Shugenja/Honor 3) Daimyo: Moshi Juiko (Female Shu 17)
Tsuruchi (Fighter/Wasp Bountyhunter/Honor 2) Daimyo: Tsuruchi Ichiro (Male Ftr 6/Wasp BH 5)

Note:  Updated this totally from previous list.

Note:  The Storm Legion PrC replaces the Mantis Merc PrC from the OA, expanding it to 10 levels.

*Phoenix Clan*
Clan Champion:  Shiba Tsukune (Female Sam 17)
Population: 1,620,000 (90,000 Samurai)

*Families*
Shiba (Samurai/Shiba Protector/Honor 3) Daimyo: Shiba Tsukune
Agasha (Shugenja/Honor 3) Daimyo: Agasha Hamanari (Male Shu 10)
Asako (Inkyo/Henshin Mystic/Honor 3) Daimyo: Asako Toshi (Male Inkyo 12)
Isawa (Shugenja/Void Disciple/Honor 2) Daimyo: None

Note:  the Isawa are ruled by the Council of Elemental Masters, one master for each of the five elements.  This council also rules the Phoenix, the Clan Champion traditionally defering authority to them.

*Scorpion Clan*
Clan Champion:  Bayushi Yojiro (Male Sam 5/Court5/EmMag 9)
Population:  1,890,000 (105,000 Samurai)

*Families*
Bayushi (Rogue/Bayushi Deciever/Honor 1) Daimyo: Bayushi Yojiro
Shosoro (Ninja/Honor 1) Daimyo: Shosuro Yudoka (Male Ftr 6/Nin 12)
Soshi (Shugenja/Honor 1) Daimyo:  Soshi Uidori (Female Shu 8/Nin 4)
Yogo (Shugenja/Honor 0) Daimyo: Yogo Koji (Male Shu 13)

Note:  Ninja is a core class in Rokugan.  EmMag is Emerald Magistrate, a Rokugan PrC.

Note:  Yes, the Yogo manage to have an honor of 0.  Even dishonorable dogs look at them and think "What scum."

*Unicorn Clan*
Clan Champion:  Moto Gaheris (Male Sam 5/Moto Avenge 10) * This is from the book, the storyline has since changed this.
Population:  3,780,000 (210,000 Samurai)

*Families*
Moto (Berzerker/Moto Avenger/Honor 1) Daimyo: Moto Gaheris
Iuchi (Shugenja/Honor 2) Daimyo: Iuchi Yue (Female Shu 14)
Shinjo (Ranger/Shinjo Explorer & Kishi Charger/Honor 2) Daimyo: Shinjo Shono (Male Rng 2/Sam 3/EXplorer 3)
Utaku (Samurai/Battle Maiden/Honor 3) Daimyo: Utaku Xieng Chi (Female Samurai 7/BattleMaiden 8)

*Other*
Bear School (Bear Warrior)

Note:  This is not a Rokugan class.

I've not included Minor Clans and Imperial Families since their power is pretty minor compared to everyone else.  The Imperial Legions and the Four Winds should probably be added somehow though.

Shadowlands Horde
Ruled by Daigotsu (Male Evil Outsider Maho-tsukai 20)
A variety of Bakemono, Oni and other tainted creatures based in the Shadowlands.

Tsuburu no Oni
One of two Oni lords no sworn to Daigotsu, it continues to set it's own agenda and seems to want to just be left alone by Daigotsu.

Kyoso no Oni
This Oni Lord's constant schemes left her exiled to Jigoku, Rokugani Hell, by Daigotsu.  

Blood Speakers
Lead by Shahai (Female Shu 7/Maho-tsukai 11)
A secret cult of Maho-tsukai working for evil and chaos through the Emerald Empire.  She has a loose alliance at present with Daigotsu.  Though it likely will end suddenly the moment she feels he's more powerful than the Emerald Empire.


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

thanks Black Omega that was cool...


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## Anabstercorian (May 12, 2002)

I call Lion clan.

Edena, share the wisdom!


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## Black Omega (May 12, 2002)

Anabstercorian said:
			
		

> *I call Lion clan. *



Should be interesting.  The rigid, traditional, honorable types.  Quite different from ana.

*



			Edena, share the wisdom!
		
Click to expand...


*Indeed, let's hear it, dude.


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## Lichtenhart (May 12, 2002)

Excuse me for the intrusion. Are these games only for veterans, or you'll be accepting new players?


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## Tokiwong (May 12, 2002)

Lichtenhart said:
			
		

> *Excuse me for the intrusion. Are these games only for veterans, or you'll be accepting new players? *




any and all can join...


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## The Forsaken One (May 12, 2002)

Yeah we are veterans 

I would rather call most of us megalomanial destoyers of worlds, at least I am


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## Sollir Furryfoot (May 12, 2002)

Or galaxies...for me...


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## Mr. Draco (May 13, 2002)

Yeah, we are veterans.

I mean who besides those in our game can claim to have participated in the complete destruction, repair, and restructuring of not only one, but (counts) well, several official settings?  After all, it is an IR.


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## Creamsteak (May 13, 2002)

Important Characters of Rokugan
NPCs (Optional Player Characters)
Crab Clan Champion: Hida Kuroda (Male Sam 10)
Crane Clan Champion: Doji Kurohito (Male Sam 6/Iaijutsu 5) 
Dragon Clan Champion: Togashi Hoshi (Male Unique Half-Dragon Sam 5/Swordmaster 10/Monk 5)
Lion Clan Champion: Matsu Nimuro (Male Sam 15) 
Mantis Clan Champion: Yoritomo Kitao (Female Ftr 6/Rog 8) 
Phoenix Clan Champion: Shiba Tsukune (Female Sam 17) 
Scorpion Clan Champion: Bayushi Yojiro (Male Sam 5/Court5/EmMag 9) 
Unicorn Clan Champion: Moto Gaheris (Male Sam 5/Moto Avenge 10) 
Daigotsu (Male Evil Outsider Maho-tsukai 20) Leader of the Maho-tsukai
Tsuburu no Oni (Powerful Oni Lord) One of two Oni lords sworn to Daigotsu
Kyoso no Oni (Powerful Oni Lord) Exiled to Jigoku, Rokugani Hell, by Daigotsu.
Lead by Shahai (Female Shu 7/Maho-tsukai 11) Leader of the Blood Speakers

Clan Families and Shadowlands Groups
Title of Territory/School/Family
Crab Clan
Hida (Samurai/Hida Defender/Honor 2) Daimyo: Hida Kuroda (Male Sam 10) 
Hiruma (Ranger/Shadow Scout/Honor 2) Daimyo: Hiruma Masagaro (Male Rng 5, Sam 2, Shadowlands Vet 5) 
Kaiu (Samurai/Siegemaster/Honor 2) Daimyo: Kaiu Umasu (Male Sam 5, Siege 10) 
Kuni (Shugenja/Witch Hunter/Honor 1) Daimyo: Kuni Tansho (Female Shu 18) 
Toritaka (Fighter/Honor 2) Daimyo: Toritaka Tatsune (Male Ftr 4/Sam 2/Rng 1/Shadowlands Vet 7)

Crane Clan
Doji (Courtier/Honor 3) Daimyo Doji Kurohito (Male Sam 6/Iaijutsu 5)
Asahina (Shugenja/Honor 3) Daimyo: Kimita (Female Shu 12)
Daidoji (Fighter/Daidoji Bodyguard/Honor 2) Daimyo: Daidoji Rekai (Female Sam 10/Ftr 10)
Kakita (Samurai or Courtier/Iaijutsu Master/Honor 3) Daimyo: Kakita Kaiten (Male Sam 15)
Yasuki (Fighter/Honor 2) Daimyo Yasuki Hachi (Male Sam 5/Ftr 4)

Dragon Clan
Togashi (Inkyo/'Tattooed Monk-ise zumi'/Honor 2) Daimyo: Togashi Hoshi (Male Unique Half-Dragon Sam 5/Swordmaster 10/Monk 5)
Hitomi (Monk/'Tattooed Monk-kikage zumi'/Honor 1) Daimyo: Hitomi Kagetora (Male Sam 9/Monk 10)
Kitsuki (Samurai/Honor 3) Daimyo: Kitsuki Mizuochi (Male Sam 13)
Mirumoto (Samurai/Dragon Swordmaster/Honor 2) Daimyo: Miromoto Uso (Male Sam 9/Swordmaster 8)
Tamori (Shugenja/Honor 2) Daimyo: Tamori Shaitung (Female Shu 16)

Lion Clan
Akodo (Samurai/Akodo Champion/Honor 3) Daimyo: Akodo Ginawa (Male Sam 15/Ftr 3)
Ikoma (Courtier/Honor 3) Daimyo: Ikoma Sume (Male Court 7/Sam 9)
Kitsu (Shugenja/Honor 2) Daimyo: Kitsu Juri (Male Shu 16)
Matsu School (Berzerker/Matsu Rager or Lion's Pride/Honor 2) Daimyo: Matsu Ketsui (Female Sam 7/LionPride 8)

Mantis Clan
Yoritomo (Fighter/Storm Legion/Honor 2) Daimyo: Yoritomo Kitao (Female Ftr 6/Rog 8) 
Moshi (Shugenja/Honor 3) Daimyo: Moshi Juiko (Female Shu 17)
Tsuruchi (Fighter/Wasp Bountyhunter/Honor 2) Daimyo: Tsuruchi Ichiro (Male Ftr 6/Wasp BH 5) 

Phoenix Clan
Shiba (Samurai/Shiba Protector/Honor 3) Daimyo: Shiba Tsukune (Female Sam 17) 
Agasha (Shugenja/Honor 3) Daimyo: Agasha Hamanari (Male Shu 10)
Asako (Inkyo/Henshin Mystic/Honor 3) Daimyo: Asako Toshi (Male Inkyo 12)
Isawa (Shugenja/Void Disciple/Honor 2) Daimyo: ruled by the Council of Elemental Masters. This council also rules the Phoenix.

Scorpion Clan
Bayushi (Rogue/Bayushi Deciever/Honor 1) Daimyo: Bayushi Yojiro (Male Sam 5/Court5/EmMag 9) 
Shosoro (Ninja/Honor 1) Daimyo: Shosuro Yudoka (Male Ftr 6/Nin 12)
Soshi (Shugenja/Honor 1) Daimyo: Soshi Uidori (Female Shu 8/Nin 4)
Yogo (Shugenja/Honor 0) Daimyo: Yogo Koji (Male Shu 13)

Unicorn Clan
Moto (Berzerker/Moto Avenger/Honor 1) Daimyo: Moto Gaheris (Male Sam 5/Moto Avenge 10) 
Iuchi (Shugenja/Honor 2) Daimyo: Iuchi Yue (Female Shu 14)
Shinjo (Ranger/Shinjo Explorer & Kishi Charger/Honor 2) Daimyo: Shinjo Shono (Male Rng 2/Sam 3/EXplorer 3)
Utaku (Samurai/Battle Maiden/Honor 3) Daimyo: Utaku Xieng Chi (Female Samurai 7/BattleMaiden 8)

Shadowlands Horde (Ruled by A variety of Bakemono, Oni and other tainted creatures based in the Shadowlands.)
Blood Speakers (A secret cult of Maho-tsukai working for evil and chaos through the Emerald Empire…)

Territories in the Far South West of Rokugan
Title of Territory/School/Family
Aiso ni Ryokosha (Village)
Bells of the Dead (Shrine)
Festering Pit of Fu Leng (Sinkhole)
Forgotten Tomb of Fu Leng (Maho Site)
Haikyo Sano Kappa (Ruins)
Heiwa na Kaze Heigen (Quiet Wind Plane)
Jukami (Village)
Kabe ue no ho ni sa Umi (Wall above the Ocean)
Kaiu Kabe (Carpenter Wall)
Kaiu Toge (Carpernter Pass)
Kawa Kurai Tsuki (River of the Dark Moon)
Kawa Sano Saigo No Kamae (River of the Last Stand)
Kenkai Hanto (Lookout Peninsula)
Kishi no Mizu-umi (Forbidden Lake)
Koten (Village)
Kuroi Yubi Kawa (Black Finger River)
Kuni Areno (Kuni Wastes)
Kyuden Hida (Palace)
Nishiyama (Village)
Saigo no Kamae Heigen (Last Stand Plain)
Shinden Asahina (Castle)
Shio Senyo no Riku (Tidal Landbridge)
Shiro Hiruma (Castle)
Shiro Kuni (Castle)
Sunda Mizu (City)
Watchtower of the East (Tower)
Yasuki Yashiki (Castle)
Yugure Yama (Twilight Mountains)

Territories in the South West of Rokugan
Title of Territory/School/Family
Aka Mizu-umi (Red Lake)
Beiden (Town)
Dangai (Shrine)
Ginasutra (Village)
Hotei Seido (Shrine)
Iyotishi (Town)
Kagoki (Village)
Kaia Osho (Village)
Kaiu Shiro (Castle)
Kakita Bogu (Village)
Kamisori sano Yoake Shiro (Castle)
Kitsune Mori (Village)
Koeru (Village)
Kuda (Village)
Kyuden Ashinagabachi (Palace)
Kyuden Bayushi (Palace)
Kyuden Miya (Palace)
Maemikake (Town)
Meidochi (Village)
Midaki (Village)
Mizu-umi no o (Lake of Sorrows)
Mizu-umi no Sakura Yuki (Lake of Cherry Blossom Snow)
Nirukti (Ruins)
Ronin Chiiki (Ronin Plains)
Shiden Osano-Wo (Shrine)
Shimomura (Village)
Shinomen Mori (Hidden Forest)
Shiro Heichi (Ruins)
Shiro Kaotsuki no Higashi (Castle)
Siksa (Town)
Taki sano Okami Jikan (Hour of the Wolf Falls)
Tomb of Iuchiban (Maho Site)
Vyakarana (Town)
Watchtower of the West (Tower)
Zakyo (City)

Territories in the Far South East of Rokugan
Title of Territory/School/Family
Bunyo sana Asahina (Fields of the Morning Sun)
Daidoji Training Grounds (Castle)
Higashiyama (Village)
Inazuma (City)
Kaimentsu-uo Seido (Shrine)
Koutetsukan (City)
Maigosera Seido (Lighthouse)
Mura Sabishi (City)
Okami (City)
Oni Mura (Village)
Tokigogachu (Village)
Umoeru (Village)
Yama ue na ho ni Umi (Village)
Yasuki Hanko (Village)

Territories in the South East of Rokugan
Title of Territory/School/Family
Aketsu (Town)
Daidoji Yukan-se (Tower)
Hanto no Yoake (Peninsula of Dawn)
Heigen no Doji (Doji Family Plains)
Higashi Chushin (Village)
Kawa na Zatu Shudoshi (River of the Blind Monk)
Kyuden Doji (Palace)
Kyuden Gotei (Palace)
Maigo no Musume Wan (Lost Daughter Bay)
Minawa Chushin (village)
Mizen (Town)
Musume (Village)
Nichibotsu Fushere (Tower)
Nishi Chushin (Village)
Otosan Uchi (Capital)
Samui Kaze (City)
Shima No Kinu (Island of Silk)
Shima No Koshinryo (Island of Spice)
Umi Yakamo (Sea of the Sun God)
Wan no Asaguroi Mizu (Bay of Dark Water)
Wan Sana Kin Taiyo (Bay of the Golden Sun)
Yuu Na Heigen (City)

Territories in the West of Rokugan
Title of Territory/School/Family
Bishamon Seido (Shrine)
Daikoku Seido (Shrine)
Duzaki (Town)
Hae Moete (Firefly River)
Heigen Yuki (Snow Plain)
Hisatu-Kesu (Village)
Kakusu Keikei Torid-e (Castle)
Kawa Mitsu Kishi (Three Sides River)
Kawa Sano Fui no Dansei wo Sasu (River of the Unexpected Hero)
Kenson Gakka (Castle)
Kita Toge (Northern Pass)
Kudo (Village)
Kyodai Na Ana (The Great Crater)
Kyuden Ikoma (Palace)
Meiyo Gisei (City)
Minami Toke (Southern Pass)
Mizu (Town)
Mizu-Umi Kiku Hanabira (Chrysanthemum Petal Lake)
Naga Doro Heigen (Naga Road Plain)
Nihai Tower (Tower)
Pokau (Town)
Ryoko Owari (City)
Seikitsu San Tama no Oi (Spine of the World Mountains)
Shinomen Tower (Tower)
Shiranai (City)
Shiro Ide (Castle)
Shiro Iuchi (Castle)
Shiroi Kishi (Village)
Shiroi Kishi Heigen (White Shore Plain)
Shiroi Kishi Mizu-umi (White Shore Lake)
Shiro Shosuro (Castle)
Shiro Soshi (Castle)
Shiro Usagi (Castle)
Toge Puramu Hana (Plum Blossom Pass)
Turo Kojiri (Village)
Utaku Seido (Shrine)
Watchtower (Tower)
Yama sano Kaminari (Mountain of the Seven Thunders)
Yogo Shiro (Castle)


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## Tokiwong (May 13, 2002)

good work... thanx Creamsteak


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## Creamsteak (May 13, 2002)

Note 1:
Ok, the above is current. I have three more blocks of map left to cover. Any mistakes still there? Black Omega? Tokiwong?

Note 2:
If we are allowed to make "general" claims like PC and clan allignment: I claim Dragon Clan and the Dragon Clan Daimyo.


Note 3: If anyone wants to know PL for those territories (I have not posted it yet to differ people from number crunching just yet) you can assume the following:

Town-Capital: Size Class x2 = PL  Size Class x1 = IR

Village is size 1
Town is size 2
City is size 3
Capital is size 4

Tower-Castle: Size Class x 4 = PL Size Class x2 = IR

Tower is size 1
Palace is size 2
Castle is size 3

Ruins are 1/2 Castle

Families have PL of 20 + Daimyo's Level -10

That is my current measurements: if anyone has any recommendations just tell me.

Oh- Land Masses have PL of 1 x Size Class and IR of 1 x Size Class. Size class for land masses is determined by font size on the map. So big areas like mountain ranges have Size classes much higher than that of a small valley. Also, Water has 1/2 the size class land would have.


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## Tokiwong (May 13, 2002)

Looks good sp far and if you want to be the Dragon then coolies... I for one think that the players can change their daimyo's if they like to represent whatever... stay true to the setting but also allow them some room to breathe.... I will crunch through the stuff you posted and see if anything seems askew...


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## Black Omega (May 13, 2002)

Tokiwong said:
			
		

> *Looks good sp far and if you want to be the Dragon then coolies... I for one think that the players can change their daimyo's if they like to represent whatever... stay true to the setting but also allow them some room to breathe.... I will crunch through the stuff you posted and see if anything seems askew... *



Well, for the most part Daimyo writeups go as far as gender and levels and that's about it.  So it's pretty flexible even to start.  

Anyway, if you are running it, Toki, do what you want.  If you need anything else posted, let me know.


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## The Forsaken One (May 13, 2002)

Can someone that knows the setteing here give me a summary of how this setting works?
Hostory ect?

I'll be looking myself but keyinfo from DM and stufff is nice.


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## Lichtenhart (May 13, 2002)

May I claim the Crane Clan?

And I'll second the Forsaken One's request.


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## Black Omega (May 13, 2002)

Hmm..can try a fast and dirty overview.  There is a ton of depth that will get left out, however.

The Emerald Empire, also called the Empire of Rokugan, is the campaign setting.  Geographicaly it's not unlike China, mostly land based with a great wall to the south protecting from the Shadowlands.  It's large enough geography varies quite a bit., freezing in the north to warm and temperate to the south.  The society is uniformly lawful and orderly and strongly based on Japanese culture.  Samurai rule the Empire, following the dictates of Bushido.  It should be noted Samurai is a character class but it is also the noble social class.  Courtiers, shugenja and Samurai all belong to it.

Historically, the Empire was formed after the Kami fell from Heaven, the result of a mythic level struggle between them and their father, Lord Moon.  Celestrial beings born of the Sun and Moon, they quickly set up an empire and it's clans.  And soon enough found themselves in a war against their evil brother, Fu Leng.  His fall had opened a pit into Hell that was corrupting the land and everyone in the area.  He was defeated when Shinsei (the Rokugani Buddha) selected a hero from each of the seven great clans.  Called the Thunders, they and Shinsei found a way to mostly seal away the power of Fu Leng, leading to his defeat.

Fast forward a thousand plus years.  The Empire decends into an unprecedented period of chaos and warfare called the Clan Wars.  Shadowland armies spread the plague and death, clan fights clan, everything goes to hell as Fu Leng possesses Hantei the 39th.  Then Fu Leng is defeated on the second Day of Thunder by souls of the original Thunders, reborn.  With the death of the last of the Hantei the dynasty that had ruled the empire for over a thousand years comes to an end and a new one starts with Toturi the 1st, the former Akodo who led the war to defeat Fu Leng.

Not that things are peaceful after that.  The war against the Lying Darkness that sought to destroy the past and sink all Rokugan into nothingness was fought and won, the Lying Darkness utterly destroyed.  But not before a number of spirits were freed from the realms of the afterlife and returned to the Empire.  Among them the savage Hantei the 16th, the infamous Steel Crysanthemum.  His schemes led to the Spirit Wars as he tried to return the throne to a Hantei.  His defeat left the empire at relative peace, until the present day.

The rest depends on where Tokiwong plans to start to game at.  With the book, or with current storyline.  Hope this helps a little.


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## Melkor Lord Of ALL! (May 13, 2002)

Hmm, I would have joined Rokugan IR, but it seems that I will be mostly offline during the summer. Anabstecorian, do you intend to make your IR after the summer? Oh, and Melkor won`t reveal himself as God of Oblivion to Earthlings, rather as power and freedom( to do what you want, nevermind others). He might even disguise himself as Celestial, and pretend to be a Christian Archangel, and create a fundamentalist Christian Church under himself, of course its members will be slowly brainwashed to be  completely obedient to him!


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## Anabstercorian (May 13, 2002)

Man, it wouldn't be an IR without a truly evil mofo like you around, Melkor.  I'll probably hold it after the summer, immediately after the Rokugan IR.


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## Edena_of_Neith (May 14, 2002)

*My personal memoirs about the 1st IR (part 1)*

Edena here.

  Since my advice was asked for, I wish to talk about what happened in my IR.

  I cannot say:  Do this, or do that.  Don't do this, or don't do that.
  Such advice would be offensive anyways - I don't think many people like being told what they should and should not do.

  Instead, I will relate my personal memoirs.
  Why my memoirs?

  Well, it's pleasant to relate good things out of the past.
  And, perhaps, it might help matters.

  A psychologist I am not.
  Perhaps one of you is, and can better analyze what happened.

  Here are some posts from the first IR, started over a year ago.
  And here are my reflections on those posts.

  And Gods, I hate it.  I hate watching the 3rd IR fade away.  It hurts.  It is sad.  I wish we could have continued.  But my instincts said stop.  I had to stop.  Better some sadness, and many happy memories.

  - - -

  THE FIRST IR

  Topic:   What would your PCs do if gnomes invented the Industrial Revolution? 

  COMMENT:  

  What a silly question.  I didn't even use proper English.  It should have been:  What would your PCs do if gnomes began the Industrial Revolution?
  I had posted a thread on the ENBoards called You Must Be Tolerant - a subject I had strong feelings about.
  Unfortunately, so did others, and it caused a Flame War.
  Afterwards, I thought to myself:  No more solemn, serious threads for a while.  Why not something silly, inane (colloquial for irrelevant), frivolous?
  Thus, this question.

  I mean, anyone who knows the official FR Setting knows that anyone trying an industrial revolution would be squashed.
  ESPECIALLY in FR, over any other setting. 
  There are simply too many powerful NPCs and deities running the show, calling the shots, and too interested in keeping things stagnant, for something as radical as the industrial revolution to come to FR (heck, even in most Home Games, it never happens.)

  So, the question was completely irrelevant.
  It was a question about a situation that could not happen.
  I might as well have asked:  What would your PC do if Ozma gently asked him to get rid of all his magical items and magic period?

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  This is meant semi-humorously.

  Your world awakens to a new reality.
  Gnomes have invented steam power.
  They have invented the Consumer Society.

  Suddenly, smokestacks start going up in the gnomish country.
  Industry appears. The land is a din of pounding hammers and thunderous booms as machines and factories spring up.
  The first railroad is built, and the horseless carriage carries trainloads of gnomes to and from the great mines where black coal is scooped up in vast quantities to fuel the growing revolution.

  Now, the gnomes start building railroads into neighboring countries, bribing the governments, cutting deals, making treaties.
  The gnomes want to dig new mines.
  The gnomes want to build factories in your city.
  The gnomes want vast number of changes and upgrades to your local area.

  Let's say this occurs in Toril.
  The gnomes have converted Amn and Tethyr. They are working on Waterdeep and the Lord's Alliance. They have emissaries to Luruar.
  They are cutting deals with the Red Wizards, with the cities of the Moonsea, with Westgate.
  Mulhorand and Chessenta are taking a look. Negotiations have begun in Thesk and Aglarond.
  What would your characters - let us assume they are extremely high level, 25th or so - do?

  COMMENT:

  See?  Amn and Tethyr were two of the countries where it all started, so when Melkor occupied them, he really did occupy the heartland of the United Commonwealth, which was derived from the Technomancy, which started in Amn and Tethyr.

  Of course, you just know Elminster and the Simbul, and the others, would have squashed the gnomes, Red Wizards, and all LONG before it got to this point.
  That's why I started at this point.  To get past that obvious detail, to render it irrelevant (if Elminster was going to squash the gnomes, he would have done it by now, in other words.)

  - - -

  Diarnothe

  Never mind what a PC would do. Every @(&!*@@ druid in the realms is going to come down on this like call lightning on an iron golem.... (and maybe just as effectual too)

  ANSWER:

  The IR was a COMPLETE accident, folks.
  I never expected more than a dozen replies to my question.  20, tops.  And I was just asking casually - I had no intention of doing anything more than checking out the responses, and having a few laughs.
  And why not?
  Of course the druids would move to squash these gnomish upstarts!


  Edena_of_Neith

  Well, of course, the gnomes immediately put out the call that extremists are attacking, endangering lives and wrecking public property.
  The gnomes put out the call to all good adventurers to put a stop to these marauding druids.
  Meanwhile, the smokestacks keep going up. The air becomes polluted and difficult to breath in the cities of Amn and Tethyr.
  The gnomes shoot and destroy all the monsters found in their territory, wiping out entire species. The iron horse (railroad) makes this easy to do.
  This is done for the good of society, claim the gnomes.

  ANSWER:

  This was rabble-rousing.
  There is no other word for it.
  I thought to myself - those stinking druids.  Always preserving the Balance, always keeping things stagnant!
  Well, what if the gnomes showed them a thing or two?!
  What if?!
  Heh.  I wrote this just out of pure impulse.  Thought to myself that those gnomes would put those druids in their place!

  - - -

  Amrynn_Moonshadow

  i guess i'd spelljam myself and my loved ones off of toril . . . providing i could get hooked up with the starwing fleet defenders of evermeet . . . or something like that. i don't know . . . kiss my elven butt goodbye?

  "Never anger an elf, we have very long memories."
  ~Amrynn Moonshadow

  COMMENT:

  Amrynn was the first elven responder, as it were.
  Didn't take long, did it?
  It is the classic elf here - elves would never tolerate the mass destruction of forests, air pollution, water poisoning, etc. of the industrial revolution.
  Still, I was a bit surprised at the kiss my elven butt goodbye part.  After all, I only said a few nations were involved.
  Fleeing Toril because of that?  I realized this was a very strong reaction to my frivolous question - that there were strong feelings here.

  - - -

     Edena_of_Neith

  You do realize, don't you, that the Elven Imperial Navy refuses to involve itself with the affairs of surface elves on Toril?
  Except, obviously, for Evermeet. 
  Yet even there, they did not come to Evermeet's aid when Kymil Nemesin attacked them.

  Therefore, you cannot abandon Toril in this manner.
  The gnomes invite all elves to join them in their new progressive revolution.
  They propose a vast industrial complex in Leuthilspar to produce metal items. One of Leuthilspar's great parks can be sacrificed for this purpose, so no elven homes will have to be, say the gnomes.
  The gnomes propose clearing a way through the elven forests for an Evermeet railroad, the timber to be used to build elven ships. New and improved ships of the gnome's design.
  The gnomes advocate the cannon as an effective harbor defense for Leuthilspar.
  They feel ironworks should be set up, so that Leuthilspar can produce it's own arsenal of firearms, cannon, and great Ironbacks (armored ships.)
  Some of the nations of Toril are receptive to the proposals of the gnomes. Others are mulling it over.
  Yet others are uninterested.
  Your characters could make the difference. What do you do?

  COMMENT:

  This was more than rabblerousing, it was ridiculous to boot, and I knew it.
  Build railroads in Evermeet?  Hahaha!
  Build factories in Leuthilspar?  Hahahaha!!
  Sacrifice one of Leuthrilspar's parks for this purpose??  Hahahahahaha!!
  More like, the gnome who proposed this would be run out of Evermeet on a rail (and that assumes he was invited to Evermeet in the first place, which wouldn't happen, and has never happened in the history of Toril.)

  Of course, I had to stick that point in about the Elven Imperial Navy.  It is quite true, as it comes from the sourcebooks.

  If I had been (actually, I am) an ardent player of elves, I would simply had HAD to make a retort to that.
  Such sacrilege to Evermeet could not be tolerated!
  Of course, since it was a theoretical scenario, I would respond in all good fun (the elves stuff the gnomes in their own iron pipes, and let them gently float on one of Evermeet's own lakes ...)

  - - -

  bondetamp

  I would start a labour union. 

  ------------------
  -bondetamp

  -but you may call me sir.

  COMMENT:

  Now, this was humor, pure and simple.  I loved this one!

  - - -

  GuardianLurker

  Well, that depends. 

  If I'm playing the 25th level Archmage Gadgeteer, I cash in.
  If I'm playing the curmudgeon ex-adventuring Fighter, "What was good enough for Granpappy is good enough for me.", I complain a lot.
  If I'm the tree-hugging druid, I get together with a bunch of my brethern and demonstrate exactly how damaging the reality behind the words "hurricane", "tornado", "earthquake", "flood", etc. can be to a primitive industrial society.
  If I'm the inquisitive Bard, I investigate to find out what caused this sudden change in the Gnome's Behavior - surely some form of unearthly demonic magic must be behind it.
  If I'm the wise Cleric, I gather together a group of young adventurers and send them on a quest to discover why the Gnomish Gods are permitting this, while I try to establish treaties and agreements that will halt the gnomish advance. (And thanks to magic, a binding agreement takes on a whole new meaning.)
  The Barbarian (and hir horde) sack a few gnomish industrial towns, then blow the gold in the world's biggest party.
  If I'm the reclusive sorceror, I enhance my aeries' defenses, and blow up anything that even comes near me.
  If I'm the sneaky Rouge swindler, I swindle the gnomes looking for trading partners, the non-gnomes looking to cash in, and anyone else (because you can't leave a mark unfleeced). And I spend even more time running away.
  The Paladin starts training for the apocalyptic battle he is sure is coming.
  And the Monk retires to the monastery to contemplate the changes life brings.
  And if I'm a member of that adventuring party, I have a wild and wonderous journey through all the planes of existence to find out the answer.

  ------------------

  GuardianLurker
  Be seeing you.

  COMMENT:

  The paladin had it right, as later events proved!
  This article was great.
  Not only did it take the theoretical question seriously, but it fleshed it out.
  It provided material to fire the imagination of other people reading the thread.
  It showed that different people would react differently - it showed how some people would support the gnomes, and some would oppose them.  
  It actually began the process of making a question into a campaign.
  Because what is a campaign, if it is not ideas and what ifs taken far enough that they do not fire the imagination, and - with a skeletal framework of rules to help - create a whole new setting?

  - - -

  Volaran the Blue

  FInd one of these oh so spiffy portals Toril is riddled with and get off the planet. The industrial revolution has happened elsewhere with little effect on the planes...even Mechanus is relatively clean in its industry.

  ANSWER:

  I remember Volaran as an ardent player of elves.
  Again, I was surprised by this response.
  Flee Toril because of a few gnomes and their (relatively primitive) inventions?
  I was quite surprised.
  Then again, Volaran saw - I am guessing - what I, at the time, did not:  what the IR would lead to.

  - - -

     Masked

  I for one would realize the gnomes must be stopped. There is only one thing that can come of this ...
  Final Fantasy 7+
  The gnomes must be stopped no matter what the cost.

  ANSWER:

  At this point, I was still only watching with disinterest.
  I thought the whole thing was dying down, and would soon fade into ENBoard history.
  I was surprised, and pleased, at all the responses, but nothing was that extraordinary (I mean, you'd expect elves and druids to oppose the gnomes.)

  - - -

  ColonelHardisson

  Tangentially...

  How did it come to pass that the Gnomes are now considered the "technological" race of D&D? I mean, I know that it started in Dragonlance with Tinker Gnomes, and they expanded out into the universe via Spelljammer. What I'm wondering is: why the Gnomes?
  Dwarves have always seemed more technologically inclined in D&D, what with Dwarven-designed forges and great stonework and cleverly designed doors and traps seeming to appear in a lot of adventures. The Greyhawk 2000 article in Dragon recently also posits that the Dwarves would be the leaders in technological know-how.
  I just don't get where the gnomes became the default tech race. And Tinker Gnomes are an abomination.
  Sorry; it needed saying. The only two races more annoying are kender and gully dwarves.
  Re: the question. The PCs wouldn't do much, except for any druids or maybe rangers and other wilderness-oriented characters - and even these would probably do more "monitoring" than anything else. If things were getting polluted, the druids would likely meet with the gnomes, discuss the problem, and try to come up with mundane and magical ways to eliminate the transmission of pollution. I imagine some might be radical, and resort to violent means, but eventually they'd be brushed aside - there really aren't that many druids running around in the first place. 
  I'd like to know why this is on your mind. Is it a campaign idea that you're about to implement, or have already implemented? 
  By the way, I think the dwarves would eventually simply shove the gnomes aside and become the real technological force i the world. It suits them more.

  COMMENT:

  I remember Colonel Hardisson.
  He was a serious and solemn poster on the ENBoards, and I am guessing he still is.
  He had a good point about the dwarves - why not the dwarves, and not the gnomes?
  I suppose it's because everyone keeps portraying the dwarves as conservative, careful, cautious, while the gnomes are well known as being uncareful, incautious, and devil-may-care about things.
  Obviously, the tinker-gnome mess created a stereotype, but consider Gond the Wonderbringer, God of the gnomes in FR.  
  Now, I would most certainly lose a serious debate with Colonel Hardisson on this matter - the man is much better at debating than me.
  I am merely commenting on why I think - my opinion only - that gnomes are looked upon this way.
  Gnomes are the troublemakers.  And who else but troublemakers would start an industrial revolution in FR?!

  - - -

     LostSoul

  quote:

  Originally posted by bondetamp:
  I would start a labour union. 

  Ya beat me to it.

  I would go around supporting the rights of the workers, promoting freedom and equality and other utopian causes, all the while changing the social structure to benefit ME.
  Then I would take my legions of conscripted soldiers with mass-produced weapons and conquer the WORLD!
  HAHAHAHAHAHA!

  ANSWER:

  (chuckle)  The first of the articles of this type.
  The first to say:  I would take the evil route, and conquer!
  Also, note that this is not a reply to me, but to another replier.  
  A chain reaction is starting.
  A chain reaction, in which they start advocating concepts and ideas of their own - what ifs of their own, as it were.
  And others start answering those what ifs, and thus more what ifs are created, and more answers come in, and the situation grows more complicated, and it starts feeding on itself.

  However, at this point I was still watching with increasing disinterest.
  Just a dying thread, that was all it was.

  - - -

     PrivateerMatt

  Colonel H, 

  You beat me to it! I have always wondered about that too. OK, the DL books were good, and *at the time* I really liked the spin they put on gnomes. But here's my dirty little secret -- I don't like how that notion has invaded the rest of fantasy gaming. It's not just D&D, either. I'm sure a lot of you here have played EverQuest, where this gnome tinkerer bit is taken to an extreme. I'm sure there are other examples out there too. 
  Anyway, glad I found a kindred spirit on that topic.  
  Hey, why didn't the kender take off like gnomes did? IMHO they are a much more interesting race. But that's another thread. 
  (By the way, there are no gnomes in the Iron Kingdoms. Not that you can't play 'em... but they aren't part of the material we are producing. Nothing personal, we just wanted to do things differently.) 
  - Matt

  ANSWER:

  I don't know quite what to say here.
  Whether a thread catches fire or not, seems to be it's own kind of magic.
  Some threads just wither and die quickly, but others go on, most annoyingly, teasingly, always somehow turning up at the top of the board.

  Remember that, at that time, the ENBoards were less stratified than they are now.
  This was occurring in RPG General, where everyone goes to post - the board that gets the most posts.
  And a few people - a very few - kept responding, kept this most annoying, most irrelevant and ridiculous, thread going.

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith


  Colonel Hardisson, just a humorous thing.

  Well now, it is obvious what happens next.

  Elminster, the Chosen, and the Harpers try to stop the gnomes covertly. 
  The gnomes take their losses, then blow up Shadowdale.
  World War is then declared, with Amn, Tethyr, Calimshan, Thay, Zhentil Keep, Mulmaster, Thesk, Mulhorand, and Chessenta on one side, and Waterdeep, the Lord's Alliance, Westgate, Luruar and it's 8 cities, Rashemen, Aglarond, Cormyr, and the Harpers and Chosen on the other side.
  Sembia is neutral, trading off of everyone, making huge money in the war business.
  This war wakes up and annoys the phaerimm, who had been sleeping under Anarouch. (There is a saying with hornets: If you can see them, you're too close ... )
  The phaerimm burst through the ancient and collasping sharn wall, and go to war against everyone.
  The elves and dwarves, not yet caught in the holocaust going on, decide now is the time to regain their supremacy over the continent of Toril, which they held for millennia.
  They declare war on everyone, and the halflings join them.
  The Sharn had been sleeping deep under the earth. The phaerimm were their ancient enemies.
  Now the sharn come up to the surface and go to war against the phaerimm.
  In the Hordelands, the fierce peoples there look west at the mess, and also at the riches for plunder.
  They muster all their armies, and march west, and a new Tuigan invasion is begun.
  Up in space, the Neogi look down, and the Mind Flayers, and the Goblins, and they see plunder, and their fleets attack in force.
  Only to be met by the Elven Imperial Navy, which battles them in spectacular combats across the Torilian skies.
  Finally, the tumult wakes up the Tarrasque.

  (No more news comes from the world of Toril after this point)

  ANSWER:

  What a stupid post.
  Only I would make a post like that.
  This is a case of jumping the gun.  Such things wouldn't happen all at once!
  This post got ignored, too, for it was too unbelievable and too far out to kindle any reaction.

  - - -

  Blood Jester

  quote:

  Originally posted by ColonelHardisson:
  Tangentially...

  How did it come to pass that the Gnomes are now considered the "technological" race of D&D? I mean, I know that it started in Dragonlance with Tinker Gnomes, and they expanded out into the universe via Spelljammer. What I'm wondering is: why the Gnomes?
  Dwarves have always seemed more technologically inclined in D&D, what with Dwarven-designed forges and great stonework and cleverly designed doors and traps seeming to appear in a lot of adventures. The Greyhawk 2000 article in Dragon recently also posits that the Dwarves would be the leaders in technological know-how.
  ......
  By the way, I think the dwarves would eventually simply shove the gnomes aside and become the real technological force i the world. It suits them more.

  OPINION:

  -Dwarves: being much more conservative, would not rush madly into such a radical change in the ways of the world.
  -Gnomes: are more 'experimental'.

  -Dwarves: are more in tune with, and reverent of the earth (lower case), they love to mine, but would not strip mine, rape the land, or change its face frivolously.
  -Gnomes: ...not so much.

  -Dwarves: don't want to interact with all the other races willy-nilly, so why have extensive railroads?
  -Gnomes: what changed over there in the last week?

  ...and so on.

  (One possible answer to your query?)

  Blood Jester

  COMMENT:

  Look at the above.
  This is a case of someone answering, not my posts, but another person's posts.
  And in so doing, he did more than express an opinion - he sketched out a serious scenario.
  For he outlined how dwarves and gnomes behave, what they do what they do, and why they do what they do.
  The more a setting is discussed, the more real it becomes - books are a kind of discussion forum all by themselves.  (Who hasn't read a book, and found it did not try, at least, to outline a reality?)
  So, here I see Blood Jester doing something that made my question take on more significance, more reality, in the mind of the reader - which, of course, would grab the reader's interest better, which makes it more likely he or she would respond.
  And any response, just adds more to the overall framework.

  - - -

     Blood Jester

  Now, what would my PC do?

  My Favorite, a Neutral Good Ranger/Cleric Wood Elf Specialty Priest of Solonor Thelandira? (2nd Ed.)

  Sabotage, sabotage, sabotage...

  This abomination against the lands MUST be stopped, the creatures of the lands MUST be protected. After one shot at reasoning (at most) force is not only acceptable, it is called for. And if excessive, rapid violence has been done to the land and the animals, SCR*W the reasoning, war has already been declared by the other side!

  My current character, a Lawful Neutral Wizard who worships Azuth:

  1)Examine if magic is being used, if so learn about it.
  2)Calculate the degree to which the natural balance of the world, and of the Weave is being affected.
  3)Use various means to scry on the future, and the end results of this behavior.
  4)Attempt to use any legal means to dissuade or stop the gnomes.
  5)For the betterment of the world, the stability of the realms, and the preservation of the (much preferable)
  status quo, not to mention the ascendancy of magic...utilize whatever means available to eradicate the gnomish inventions, and lock away (if magical) or destroy (if non-magical) all knowledge of their 'technology'.

  Blood Jester

  ANSWER:

  If you look at many later postings in the IR, you will see that those against the elves point out they started the war first.
  This is where they started the war - with a hypothetical response from Blood Jester.
  Note - they did not later say:  A person wrote a hypothetical response to a hypothetical question.
  They said:  the elves started the war.
  It took on greater and greater reality in the minds of those reading it - otherwise, why would they say such things?
  They took a hypothetical answer to a hypothetical question, and turned it into campaign history.

  Again, I honestly believe that, what happened here, is that in responding to my question and to each other's posts, everyone actually sketched out a new campaign setting.
  Nobody, including me, realized what was happening, yet it was happening, slowly and insidiously, and it sucked more and more people in.

  - - -

  Ashtal

  I'd say you'd have something akin to Castle Falkenstein, but that's just me. 

  Ashtal - who has no gnomes in her campaign but has Dwarves with gunpowder in a rennaisance culture who brought both steel and a new sense of humanitarianism to the human people in my campaign.

  ANSWER:

  Another answer to my original question.

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  Blood Jester Wrote:

  Now, what would my PC do?
  My Favorite, a Neutral Good Ranger/Cleric Wood Elf Specialty Priest of Solonor Thelandira? (2nd Ed.)
  Sabotage, sabotage, sabotage...
  This abomination against the lands MUST be stopped, the creatures of the lands MUST be protected. After one shot at reasoning (at most) force is not only acceptable, it is called for. And if excessive, rapid violence has been done to the land and the animals, SCR*W the reasoning, war has already been declared by the other side!


  : )

  The gnomes declare this character a vile outlaw! They are sending their best people after this extremist elf!
  Perhaps, say the gnomes, the elves should be excluded from ALL civilized lands, since they are barbarians who could not understand Progress if it struck them in the face!


  Blood Jester wrote:

  My current character, a Lawful Neutral Wizard who worships Azuth:

  1)Examine if magic is being used, if so learn about it.

  The Answer:
  They are using magic, you would learn, although they do not realize it.

  2)Calculate the degree to which the natural balance of the world, and of the Weave is being affected.

  The Answer:
  The natural balance of both Toril and the Weave are being altered.  Being altered in ways that nobody can predict, although numerous Sages have tried to determine the outcome.
  The gnomes poo-poo the whole thing (that is, research to see if this is dangerous) as backwards thinking.
  Onward, upward! That is their motto.

  3)Use various means to scry on the future, and the end results of this behavior.

  The Answer:
  There are many possible endings. 
  Most of them bewildering beyond comprehension.
  Some of them show the world ending in flame.
  Some of them show the world filled with buildings that pierce the clouds.
  Most of them show gnomish inventions flying through the air, racing across the ground, strange lines hung in the air, the ground covered in strange grey stuff.
  Some of them show this great city, with all sorts of races walking by - mind flayers, orcs, kobolds, humans, elves, dwarves, halflings, even neogi with their umber hulk servants!, and they are paying no attention to each other, but hurrying down the grey ground amidst a jumble of gnomish machines, strange lights, towering buildings, and a tumult of noise.
  Where they are going, or what they are doing, cannot even be guessed.

  4)Attempt to use any legal means to dissuade or stop the gnomes.

  The Answer:
  The gnomes refer you to their Complaints Department.
  Case 55.
  Section B, Article 235.
  You must go before an Arbitrator, and state your case. 
  If the Arbitrator allows, this can be taken to Court.
  If you win your case in Court, the gnomes will consider your case before the Tethyr Circuit Court.
  If that Court is favorable, your case will be considered by the Tethyr supreme court.
  If the Tethyr supreme court agrees your case is reasonable, the High Court will take it up.
  If the High Court agrees your case is reasonable, the Gnomish Bureucracy will take up your issue, and - the gnomes proclaim - you will receive a reasonable judgment.
  The whole process shouldn't take more than 10 years.

  5)For the betterment of the world, the stability of the realms, and the preservation of the (much preferable) status quo, not to mention the ascendancy of magic...utilize whatever means available to eradicate the gnomish inventions, and lock away (if magical) or destroy (if non-magical) all knowledge of their 'technology'.

  The Answer
  All foretellings show the status quo will be destroyed if the gnomes continue, or if any nation on the planet, period, decides to take up the gnomish path.
  And another nation is likely to take up the gnomish path, and soon, if the gnomes continue to do as they are doing.
  Some things get institutionalized, you see.

  ANSWER:

  I think I was bored.  
  I think I had become bored, and wanted to stir up trouble to cause excitement.
  Why else would I write such a ridiculous answer, deliberately designed to cause a response?

  Also, at this point, I think I was enjoying the theoretical back and forth banter.
  I had not expected so many answers to the question, and I ... don't ask me why ... really enjoyed counterreplying to the responses.

  They said:  stop the gnomes!  And I said:  I'll bet you wish you could!  
  And they said:  We squash the gnomes!  And I said:  Fat chance!

  I guess there was obsession starting there, too.
  I have an obsessive personality (how else could anyone go on running an IR every day, for nearly 4 months?)
  And my obsessive personality was getting involved in this - my obsessive was starting to focus on this thread.

  Not just a question anymore.
  An exciting chance to rile people up, to counteranswer, blow the situation up, see what new responses would occur.
  Great for DMing, this kind of thing.  Awful, to do this as a player (it tends to make the entire party mad at you, and kill your character.  Trust me, I know ...)

  - - -

  mastermind

  I would start a factory that produces Pokemon stuff.
  I'll become a millionaire!!

  ANSWER:

  Pure humor!  This was fun reading.

  - - -

  Tsyr


  What would I do?
  I'd simply kill all the gnomes.
  Not like anyone actualy likes gnomes anyhow...
  *grins evily*
  Besides... railroads? Common... depending on the sub-race of gnomes, I might be doing the world a big favor killing them... with a network of railroads across the planet, it could be doomsday...

  ANSWER:

  If I was setting a trap, Tsyr fell into it, lock, stock, and barrel.
  You just know this is the kind of thing I'd jump on.
  Kill the gnomes!  (hehe)  But of course, we mustn't let the rotters destroy the planet with their pollution!
  But ... (evil grin on MY part) what if the Red Wizards, the Zhentarim, myriad other nefarious groups, were on the side of the gnomes? ... (why do you think I choose Calimshan, Amn, and Tethyr as the starting point, and not Aglarond, Shadowdale, or Luruar?!)

  - - -

  soldarin

  Wait anxiously for the first automobile, then buy one? 

  ANSWER:

  Pure humor!  And humor is fun.  Humor means laughs.  Laughter is fun.
  All the best games I've ever been in had lots of laughter - and laughter makes people more interested in a thread.

  - - -

  eatenmyeyes

  Wouldn't the rise of technology weaken magic? It was my understanding that the amount of each are inversely proportional to each other and that magic varied depending on the level of tech. Thus, wizards who knew this would try to stop them.

  ANSWER:

  A serious answer.  Thus, we have more campaign building.
  They were writing the first chapter of the book, without ever realizing they were doing so.
  Writing it in the air, and putting it down on the ENBoards.
  For questions lead to answers, and answers lead to questions, and the result is a consistent framework one can imagine within.

  - - -

     drothgery

  My PC, presumably a high-level wizard on any world other than Toril (and so a mid-level wizard on Toril), would research the a magical item that, when placed on top of smokestacks, magically filters out the pollutants.
  He'd then make a fortune selling them to gnomes.

  ANSWER:

  More campaign building.
  Think about it - wizards just might do such things!   

  - - -

  Gez

  It seems people just don't realize that concerns like "ecology" and "pollution" were just unknown when the actual Industrial Revolution happened IRL. If you go back in time in the 19th century and say to people "steam engine are dangerous! you will pollute the air, you will all be sick, and the atmosphere will be warmed, and we will all be flooded!" people will think you're some sort of idiotic mystic doomsayer and will discard you and your arguments. Hell, nowadays, even someone as responsible and reasonnable as the leader of the One Hyperpower of the world estimate pollution isn't dangerous.
  Except for druids or rangers that could be upseted by a railroad coming through her beloved forest, reaction would be either "wow, that's cool" or "why making brutish and bristle machine when magic can achieve the same effect more rapidly, comfortably and efficiently ?".
  Now, given I *do* know in character, not in metagame thinking, that industry is dangerous, what would I do?
  Clean. Gnomes have an innate knwack for magic, and it should be fairly easy for them to learn spells like "Purify Air".
  You see, with magic items, it is really easy to avoid pollution. Some circlet of Transmute Smock to Air could be put on top of chimney, for example.
  You could gather toxins and industrial waste in a place, and when you have enough, ship them to a center where a Sphere of Disruption will destroy it forever.
  Even nuclear wastes are of no danger when you can simply banish them forever in the Nowhere.
  About specy extinctions: a D&D world has an incredible bio-diversity, and I think some species could be extincted for the good of all. Notably, several Aberrations, Drow elves, Tinker gnomes, Gully dwarves, and Kender halflings.
  Tsyr: What have you against railroads ? In my books, automobile are more doomsday-triggerers than trains. Cars pollute more, takes more places, provoke more accidents, and are one possible cause for obesity (I won't expand this here).
  Oh, and there is the argument that technology and magic are antagonist. Why should it be this way ? The only reason I've found is that people don't like mixing magic and science and so declare that you can't have both, but it's arbitrary.
  Finally, I would emphasize some points. Except for the savage Spriggans, gnomes are NG. I doubt they would associate with the Moonsea cities. I doubt any non-human race will associate with Hillsfar.
  As I see things, Gnomes will create industrial device with magical cleaner to prevent pollution (because Gnomes are GOOD and don't want to cause grave troubles) and everyone will be happy of being able to use those so safe trains and planes to travel, rather than be exposed to the harshness of the element, the brutality of the maraudings bandits, the length of the journey...
  But the gnomes you describe, Edena, seems to have a LE WoD-technocatric behavior, and associate with all Evil countries and organizations against all goods. Strange.

  COMMENT:

  This article, above, was like throwing a match into a keg of dynamite.
  After all, think - they spent 4 pages arguing about whether the standard housecat could kill the standard Commoner, in 3rd edition.

  People on the ENBoards love philosophical debates (just look at the number of alignment arguments - if there aren't 10 million arguments over what paladins can and cannot do, then I can't read!)

  People on the ENBoards love to argue philosophy, and the above article had more philosophy than you could shake a stick at.

  It took my silly, shallow, hypothetical question, and deepened it, wrapped it in philosophy, and absolutely begged a response - not from me, but from other people on the ENBoards.

  A whole bunch of questions were asked in the above article, and many weren't phrased as questions 
  Such as, all gnomes are neutral good.  That is a question, not a statement - because many, including Yours Truly, were not portraying them as such.)
  Or better yet:  cars are worse than trains, for various reasons.  Are they?  Can you prove it?  
  Gnomes would build clean technology.  Given as a statement, but would they?

  - - -

  Tyrion

  I have trouble seeing how this sort of Industrial Revolution could ever take place in a fantasy realm...the gnomes would be smacked down soon after they tried to expand. The smart ones of their race wouldn't even bother. Here's why:

  1) What's the point of railways? Instead of the immense cost and time of setting up a railroad network over the countryside, just have some high-level mages create permanent teleportation circles where you need them.
  2) The gnomes want to develop more mines. Where do they find these mines that have not been already exploited by another faction?

  I think, however, that a consumer society and mass-production could possibly occur, although they would be radically different than our modern view of these concepts. Magic does everything the society needs, and in most cases better than technology.

  ANSWER:

  A serious, and reasonable answer, to my question.
  Yet, it provides more campaign background.
  Every new comment adds a little more to the reality of the fantasy.

  - - -

  bondetamp

  The thing is that even if an industrial revolution on Torill would damage the environment, no one but a very few extremists would notice until it was far too late to stop it.

  ANSWER:

  This was the last comment on page one of IR One.
  By this time, over a week had passed since I posted my question.
  I was still watching with disinterest, not particularly caring if the thread lived or died.

  The comment above begged a response.
  It was a strong statement of opinion, and of course everyone on the ENBoards has a counter-opinion, and likes to voice it.
  And when it involves FR, EVERYONE seems to have a strong opinion.

  - - -

  ColonelHardisson


  Again, tangentially...

  In my campaign world, Dwarves are the guys into heavy machinery. They'd be the ones to build railways because they already use them in the mines for their ore carts, and a railroad across the land would give them quick and easy access to consumers who would buy their consumer goods.
  Halflings IMC are not the race of thieves or pseudo-kender of modern D&D; they're more like a cross between Tolkien's Hobbits and D&D halflings, with a large dollop of honesty and practicality thrown in. More like Merry and Pippin in "The Scouring of the Shire" than Bilbo at the beginning of "An Unexpected Party."
  They still like creature comforts, and have invented a lot of labor-saving items. They even have lawnmowers, toilets, and street lights. 

  COMMENT:

  Although Colonel Hardisson did not participate in the main IR, per se, this statement above helped get it going.
  For he introduced a large amount of material from his campaign world into the thread.
  That kind of thing gets people thinking.
  People might wonder, then, how FR gnomes, dwarves, and halflings would handle technology.
  It really builds up the what if question.
  It begs for a reply, as most strongly opinionated articles on the ENBoards do.

  - - -

     CarpeDM

  quote:

  Originally posted by ColonelHardisson:
  Tangentially...

  How did it come to pass that the Gnomes are now considered the "technological" race of D&D? I mean, I know that it started in Dragonlance with Tinker Gnomes, and they expanded out into the universe via Spelljammer. What I'm wondering is: why the Gnomes?


  Well, the only real hook that 1st edition gnomes had was that they were into practical jokes and were decent illusionists. This didn't fit in with Weis and Hickman's view of Krynn (humans and elves did all the magic, Kender were the pranksters), so they looked for another idea. Mad scientist inventors was what they came up with, and for whatever reason that's what we're stuck with.
  Of course, Dwarves in the DragonLance modules were no slouches in the engineering business (the big difference being that Dwarf machines actually worked). The Dwarf kingdom in one of the early modules (Thorbardin? Don't have my books handy) includes some pretty out-there technology. But Dwarves also have the "doomed society of warriors" hook, so their technological accomplishments were eventually downplayed. The DragonLance portrayal of Kender and Tinker Gnomes was so popular that 3rd edition made it canon.
  In my campaign, Gnomes have always been kind of a cross between Dwarves and Elves - they have an Elf-like appreciation for nature, combined with the Dwarf work ethic. They're not very technological at all; the
  Dwarves are the clear leaders in that respect, and they're not interested in exporting their discoveries. The Dwarves have the technology to start industrial revolution-style change (or at least are close to it), but their focus on individual craftsmanship means they're not interested in mass production techniques. And since they're not likely to export their secrets, other cultures aren't even aware that the technology exists.
  My gnomes, OTOH, are very much in tune with nature and magic (to them, they're the same thing). Absent some other influence, they tend to form semi-nomadic cultures. In the more civilized areas of my world, they tend to live in symbiosis with Dwarf or Elf cultures (sometimes both) rather than separate nations.

  ANSWER:

  A vast amount of campaign information.
  A lot of information on Dragonlance.
  A serious answer to a serious question from Colonel Hardisson.
  This article provided a lot of fantasy to chew on, to think about, to establish further the framework of the new campaign setting that would become the IR.

  - - -

  Estlor

  Well on Mystara gnomes always were big into technology. However, for the most part that was always geared towards better smithing techniques, better preservation of shiny things.
  THEN one of them discovered a Blackmoor anti-gravity drive pod.
  As you can imagine, holy hell broke loose for the better part of a thousand plus years until the gnomes built that bad boy into a flying city complete with biplane defense fighters.
  But I digress.

  Assuming I was in Toril playing the elven bard Estlor, I would use my influence to get as many elves behind me and decree the technomancy of the gnomes to be a profoundly wicked belief. Using the considerable magic reserves of the elves, I'd fortify the forest against the intrusion of non-elves and technomancers such that when the rest of the world has forgotten magic and embraced industry there will still be a corner of the world that holds on to the old ways.
  And lord help them when they have lost all their magic and the elves decide it's time to stop hiding  

  ANSWER:

  Again, everyone said the elves started it.
  This article, and Blood Jester's were the articles that made the elves into the proverbial bad guys, as it were.
  I don't know enough of how people work to say exactly why it all happened, but it sure did happen, as you know from the later reactions to the elves.
  Perhaps people just wanted to have fun, carrying on the now semi-imaginable scenario.
  Maybe they were bored, and just wanted to post.
  Maybe they liked sparring on possibilities (well, really, that wouldn't happen - now, if you look, you'll see that this would happen instead ...)
  Maybe their imaginations were fired by all this, and they wanted to be a part of a growing movement - jumping on the bandwagon as it were.

  Somehow, it clicked.  And the IR took off like a rocket.
  It was posts like this one that made it happen.

  - - -

     Wayne Ligon

  quote:

  Originally posted by Gez:

  either "wow, that's cool" or "why making brutish and bristle machine when magic can achieve the same effect more rapidly, comfortably and efficiently ?".

  Because to use that machine requires, at most, a week or so of training - if that - whereas magic takes months or years to learn. And depending on the world you're running, maybe all people cannot USE magic, period. 
  God created Man, but Sam Colt made 'em equal.

  ANSWER:

  Now, that's the beginning of a debate (if not an argument.)
  That wasn't a reply to me at all.
  That was a reply to Gez.

  So, the situation - gnomes starting the IR - is being debated, and discussed, and argued, and philosophical debates are occuring, and as this happens it becomes more real, and more real, and more real, in the minds of those reading the material.
  A new campaign setting is born.  Still very gauzy, and just an illusion, but with enough reality to hold people's interest.

  - - -

     Victim

  One of my characters takes a rather keen interest in new technology. He'd be forwarned.
  Initial trials would be watched. Assuming the gnome designs don't destroy themselves, sabotage would be employed. The design notes would be subtlely altered to make designs that would work into death traps, leading the gnomes to cease studying valid solutions.
  Meanwhile, my character would then publicly declare support for the inventions while they were at an early stage. Not only would this possibly discredit the inventions as unrealistic expectations develop and people are let down, but this would alert other people who might not grasp the implications. Like the Harpers. Even though I wouldn't want the Harpers to be my allies in game of Diplomacy and don't trust them to fight or plot their way out of paper sack, they could still be rather annoying.
  Then we find some Zhent bastards, kill or capture them and take their stuff, especially any prominent symbols and such. Now we disguises.
  Now the Zhentarim (see above) begin raiding temples of Gond (I assume that the Wonderbringer's temples would be focal points for the industry). Liberal use of disentategrate destroys prototypes and technical knowledge. Things that were built would be teleported to the vicinity of Zhent strongholds. Of course, appropriate precautions against divination magic would be taken. 
  My character would get some mages to learn how to conjure rust monsters and help design spells that used acids or sonics to wreck machines. However, he still claims support the gnomes and advocates harsh retalitory measures against Zhentarim. 
  Just to spice things up, a reverse engineered and refined steam powered warmachine would be teleported from the Citadel of the Raven (getting in would be tough but not impossible) to the headquarters of this attempt to destroy the realms, probably Lantan.
  Now everyone can play in the techie vs. Zhent war. 
  Under constant assualt from the druids, harpers, probably a some other power groups and now the powerful mages of the Zhentarim, the Industrial coalition should be overwhelmed. In the process, however, both the Zhents and Harpers would be extremly weakened. Hopefully, the Zhents would gone down in flames.
  Of course, so far no one has taken divine intervention into account. Other gods might get upset at situation that would send Gond's power beyond all the other gods put together.

  ANSWER:

  This was more than any mere answer to my question.
  This was someone else writing a story in the air.
  This was storywriting.  Bringing the IR to life, with a storywriting response to the question.
  This definitely was the kind of article that would fire the imagination, and cause people to respond.

  - - -

     Edena_of_Neith

  I have looked at the Posts on this Thread.
  I have evaluated their quality.
  And I have come to the inevitable conclusion that:

  The Gnomish Industrial Revolution is stopped! 
  Victory for the elves, druids, and the mages in the shadows!

  ANSWER:

  And now, I did something I had never done before on the boards.
  Don't ask me why I did it - I can't tell you.
  The impulse to do it, was just there.

  To answer the posts, the philosophical discourses, the storywriting - with more storywriting.
  DMing, as it were.
  Don't ask me why - it just seemed the fun thing to do.
  Heh - three people had demonstrated pretty firmly that those nasty gnomes were fried - so, I ruled they were!

  - - -

  Lannon

  Oh please the war isnt over yet. I dont think covert operations is going to simply shut down a massive operation like an industrial revolution. How about all these other countries that figure out how wonderful it is to suddenly be outproducing, outfarming, and generally outperforming all the other countries that are still relying on their few mages for power and the backs of their peasants. Heck lets say that they start mass producing... dong dong dong guns! And then they start shooting mages, fighters and other pesky adventurers. And when they go to battle with other nations they bring those same guns along... It would be a real mess if a well equipped group of men with guns faced a well equipped group of men with swords... 
  All those bloody, dying men, would be wishing their country was taking part in this marvelous industrial revolution that puts explosives akin to magic into the hands of the common footsoldier. And one elf! Some little elf that is breaking in and burning papers and has no idea what is going on. Well why not set up some interesting problems for him too. Why not hire our own mages, we can sell them their own guns, then the mage can fire off his spells and pump a quarter inch ball into the gut of the closest fighter. Come to think of it, that mage might just appreciate that nifty little gun. Furthermore, if we can just harness the damage capacity of these nifty little bullets, maybe we can get some casings on them... 
  If you have the industrial revolution kiss your non industrial revolutioned butt good bye. Magic really isnt going to save you, not when the vast majority of people dont have it, and not when the production capacity of these gnomes will vastly outperform that of even a thousand mages. I can just see it, the gnomes, pumping up their machines to produce instruments of destruction that any person can use. Any peasant now has the capability of a low level fighter. And all those poor mages trying desperately and expensively to create wands and staves. But those mages know its already doomed because they and their comrades will be the only ones that can use them. "We cant just train the commoners to wield magical staves and wands me-lord. Its these damn guns! All the explosion of magic and any fool from the fields can shoot down one of my best troops! And that is after a single day of training!".
  The problems just go on and on and on. No one has considered retaliation from the states that have embraced the revolution. These are just some ideas...

  ANSWER:

  This was more than any answer to my question.
  This was more than a rebuttal to previous posts by others.
  This was full scale writing in itself.
  Lannon even went so far as to declare my ruling null and void, as if I were a DM!

  It was here, for the first time, that I realized - truly - that something was happening.  
  Something unexpected, something new.
  I sensed building momentum, a sense of something big to come.
  And I was really excited about it.
  I was eager to get in, and be a part of it.

  - - -

     TheBalor

  Out-perform mages? Lessee...any number of mage spells can stop bullets, kill you instantly, destroy entire cities in a few hours, defy all laws of physics effortlessly, mend any item instantly, bring people BACK TO LIFE (wish or clone), need I go on? I REALLY doubt that guns are more destructive than say, cloudkill or Power word:kill. Let ALONE pre revelutionary war guns..

  ANSWER:

  This isn't an argument.
  This is momentum building.
  We have people who now care enough about this thread to write increasingly long and complex articles to it.
  It's become real enough, compelling enough, that people are willing to really argue, really debate, create more what if scenarios, and thus the momentum grows and grows.

  - - -

  Victim

Protection from arrows works against guns. 

  The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows. Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that you make them out to be.
  Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics. Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. 
  How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have worked out
amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when the crops aren't enhanced?
  Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why would a world rich in magic need one?
  Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external threats?

  ANSWER:

  See?  Now, a full scale debate is beginning to rage.
  They aren't talking about my simple, silly question anymore.
  They are now debating about whether a campaign theme would work.
  They are now seriously debating whether an IR would work, and what would happen in it.
  They are putting considerable time and effort into doing so - which means they have put a lot of thought into the matter.
  It's getting more and more real.  It's becoming more and more important.

  Now that it's started, I don't need to ask more questions - the situation is feeding off of itself.
  Posts are coming in faster and faster, as the subject draws more and more people in.

  - - -

  TheBalor

  *takes deep breath* Dragon scales are harder than reinforced steel, and more resistant according to type. What do you do against etheral opponents? And ONE DAY OF TRAINING? Don't make me laugh. A policeman can hit a moving target 1 out of 10 times, and that's with a modern day glock or magnum. Now, if I just hand a peasant a flint lock(at best) and tell him how to reload, fire, etc.,etc., he'll miss about a million times. If I were a level 2 mage, I could kill that guy with a magic missle, not to mention screw up his aim with illusions, go etheral, or just use a stoneskin, he'll be dead.dead.dead.

  ANSWER:

  The debate rages.  The IR takes on greater and greater reality with each word put down on paper.

  - - -

     Abbas


  Hmm, why is it stopped?

  What we have are a number of Elves, mostly out of world and by the time most of them would recognize the facts and really do something the Gnomes would have had a few hundred years and Stealth Bombers, nuclear rockets...
  But to come back to Gnomes nature, they wouldn't start to build great Railroads. They would have an 'Iron horse' around their village, be pleased and do something else. 
  Dwarves are Ingenieurs, Gnomes are Scientists. 
  They don't produce useful things, they produce things, because they want to know if they function.
  Same with Gnomish Magic, Illusions are the most facinating kind of Magic.

  ANSWER:

  The point:  I didn't start the IR.
  They did. 
  Look at them.
  Look at them argue and debate.
  Look at the thought and effort put into these posts.
  Look at how these posts created a fantasy setting where no fantasy setting existed before, in the mind of the reader.

  - - -

  Lannon

  quote:

  Originally posted by Victim:

  Protection from arrows works against guns. 

  The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows. Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that you make them out to be.

  < The reason is range and armor penetration my friend. If you have not considered teh effects of armor penetration in your argument then you are completely ignoring why these weapons immediatly outclassed heavily armored knights>

  Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics. Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. 


  How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have worked out amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when the crops aren't enhanced?

  Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why would a world rich in magic need one?

  Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external threats?

  How are they helpless. Build newer and better explosives. Build bigger guns. Shoot some cannons at the Dragon. Blow up the mind flayer. Have your own mages enchant your guns. Are you daft man there isnt any need to kill all the mages, only fools that are trying to hurt the revolution!

  As for the fellow that talked about actually shooting someone with a gun. Its different hitting a moving target with one bullet when that person is moving all around. It is another story when taht same man is about ten feet away and closing fast. Any fool with a gun will shoot you flat in the chest at that range. Dont tell me it wouldnt happen.

  ANSWER:

  More answers to questions I did not ask.
  More questions for others to answer, and not me.
  More what ifs?
  The IR concept becoming more real and more real.
  More and more writing, to read, and respond to.
  Momentum building further, becoming greater and greater.

  - - -

  TheBalor

  *salivates over the idea of a enchanted, +5 vorpal AK-47*

  ANSWER:

  Heh.  The imagination knoweth!

  - - -

  Lannon

  quote:

  Originally posted by Victim:
  Protection from arrows works against guns. 

  The primary advantage of guns is ease of use. Ease of doesn't matter much in a DnD world as the HP, AC, and DR on many monsters are too much for normal weapons to defeat. A unit of men with primitive guns would probably be less effective than the same unit with cross bows.
  Guns, especially the inaccurate, unreliable and slow ones, aren't exactly the ultimate weapon. I can't see how getting shot with gun would be much worse than a bow. Look in the DMG, good firearms are rated at D12, not the magical kill anything/anyone weapons that you make them out to be.
  Even if the guns were as effective as you believe, AoE spells and mass charm/suggestion would cause your army to explode or shoot each other. How many of those peasents with a day of training would make save against web, sleep or color spray, let alone powerful magics.
  Or simple illusion that wastes all your limited ammo. 

  How would the industrial society support itself? With druids around, not many people have worked out amazing farming techniques. Probably the only reason Faerun can support its current urban population is because of druids. How many people in your cities starve when the crops aren't enhanced?

  Of course, people make the assumption that an industrial revolution would be accepted. You believe that many nations would embrace technology because its advantages. I doubt it. It isn't needed and there is no pressure for it. The greeks could have begun an industrial revolution but didn't. If the greek's didn't want or need an industrial revolution, then why
 would a world rich in magic need one?

  Not to mention the fact an industrial, consumer society faced with certain foes is completely helpless. After magic is abandoned, who can stop a mind flayer? Outsiders? Dragons? How could they even know what they face? Who would be prepared to resist these external threats?


  I dont know why but part of my response was deleted. 

  You meantion spells. Well why dont the industrial nations hire their own wizards to combat those of the other nations? Why not have their mages keep the other mages busy. In the meantime the foot soldiers with their nifty guns can shoot the armor off the poor fools with swords and make a mess out of archers with volleys of high powered shot. Why not let a wonderful archane archer have fun empowering the shots for a musket? All the arguments you make about magic come to nothing. The industrial nation does not have to abandon magic. They simply will use it in a different way. Enchanted cannon and muskets, or gasp cartridge loaded weaponry would make short work of those dragons and illithids. 

  Suddenly the fighter is gone, replaced by glorious alternity with joe shmoe firing shots from his hip and mowing down morons in plate armor with his machine gun.
  As for the problem with druids. Why dont the gnomes have the druids taken out? Why not hire some kindly adventurers to take out those nasty barbarians that are killing men out in the fields. Why these are hard working peasants that are simply trying to earn a good days labor. Something needs to be done!
  Furthermore, who needs a druid when increased production due to the incorporation of new technology is possible? dont forget that the industrial revolution inspired advances in farming as well. Those advances in farming were enough to feed the growing populations of an industrialized nation. Another side note, terrorist groups do not win wars.

  ANSWER:

  Lannon was the founder of the Technomancy.
  The Technomancy would go on, eventually, to become the United Commonwealth of Toril.
  This is how it all started, with posts like these.
  The posts of someone interested in the subject, who was asking questions, answering questions, thinking on the subject, imagining possibilities, and was in general fired up about the whole thing.

  Not that I have hardly posted at all, up til now.
  This has all gone on without my help, or even without my intervention.
  All I did was ask a question, which started more people asking questions, and answering those questions, then shooting down the answers and asking more questions, then debating, philosophizing, arguing - and in the process creating a whole new campaign world.

  - - -

  TheBalor


  Gah...I'm starting to lean towards the more magi-tech side(anyone here played FF3/6?) Umm...Lannon, why do you feel you need to kill the druids and barbs? I think that they could work with the new farming technology. Think about it; plant growth improved with technology, and then doubled with the spell plant growth. Ya just seem a bit extreme...


  Lannon

  quote:

  Originally posted by TheBalor:

  Gah...I'm starting to lean towards the more magi-tech side(anyone here played FF3/6?)
  Umm...Lannon, why do you feel you need to kill the druids and barbs? I think that they could work with the new farming technology. Think about it; plant growth improved with technology, and then doubled with the spell plant growth. Ya just seem a bit extreme...

  They dont need to be killed. However druids are more concerned with the balance of nature. That being the case, stripping the land for resources and improving farming techniques by savaging the land would probably arouse their attention and force some confrontation. Now, if they want to cooperate and perhaps live within some designated "Wild Zones" maybe something could be worked out .

  ANSWER:

  Now, the above is active campaign building.  Think about it.
  No longer just asking questions, or answering someone else's questions.
  Now, Lannon is answering his own questions.  He is creating, building, something new.

  - - -

  Gez

  Edena, please, answer me...
  Read my previous post (on page one) and tell me WHY there would be a war. Yep, why ?
  Because Elves and Druids are a bunch of genociding idiots that want to kill all gnomes at the slightiest pretext ?

  Because the OOC knowledge that pollutions kill animals and induce global warming is magically granted to just everyone (but not those silly self-claiming "True Good" Gnome) ?
  Because it would be impossible to mix magic and technology to create clean and reliable machinery to everyone ?
  Try to be consistant. A permanently Heated metal container can boil water without need for burning carbon.
  A photoelectric cell can be forever alimented by a Continual Flame. There's just so much ways of having a pollution-free industry in a magic world.
  And even if you create waste, you can destroy them forever (look at Bottomless Pit in R&R for a low-level way of disposing of garbage).
  With the appropriate precautions, a railroad is of strictly no harms for nature: have it pass on bridges (like a highway), so that animals pass below it without risks. No black smoke, because the vapor is produced by throwing water from an Endless Decanter in a Permanently Heated chamber.
  Lots of people on this thread acted like rampaging luddites, thirsty for gnome blood. Why so much hate ? (I have to start a thread called "Hey guys, why do u hate gnomes ?")
  Use your Int score, and your Wis score. An industrimagical revolution is not a bad, evil thing.
  For those who claim that it will raise Gond's power over those of other gods. Not entirely true. He will sure be raised in power, but as a god of invention and innovations, as soon as something becomes old-tech it's no more in his domain. Compare it with Mystra's grasp over all magic. Gond would be about as important as Mystra in power, but no greater.
  Don't forget several other gods have claim over craft and tools (particularly in the Dwarven and Gnome pantheon).
  Furthermore, an industrial revolution would give more power to existing god. Akadi can become the patroness of Planes and Zeppelins, for example. Shaundakul, or other travel-deity could also have claims over vehicles. War gods can take claim over guns and firearms: a Torm worshipping soldier will not convert to the cult of the Wonderbringer because he want to use a gun.
  And other deity will emerge. Look at war: it's something that interest lots of people, so they are lots of war gods. Once industry interest lots of people, new industry gods will emerge.

  ANSWER:

  This person had become fully involved.
  He had been pulled in completely.
  Look at how ardently he posted, how strong his feelings were, the real sense of outrage at some of the other posts prior to this one.
  Now, he is demanding answers out of me, as if I were an Arbitrator.
  Somehow, through some process that I will never truly understand, I became the Arbitrator.  Go figure.  I ask a question, and they are now asking me for the answer!

  Furthermore, this person is strongly campaign building.
  He is asking questions and answering them.  He is rebuking other answers, and providing his own.
  He is most certainly posting something that is going to elict responses from others, thus continuing and strengthening the momentum.

  A successful campaign always depends on how much it's players care about what is happening.
  When someone starts posting like this, you know that they care - they cared enough to spend some time in writing said post, and they used some pretty strong words here!
  To this person, the IR had become real enough to elict strong feelings and emotions.

  - - -

  Dareoon Dalandrove

  Has anyone read the book The Jackal of Nar? I think if you wanted to add some of these advanced technologies but keep the medieval feel this is a good model. The most brilliant engineering and scientific mind is a short little guy too!

  ANSWER:

  Now, someone is offering supplemental material from books to answer the questions posted on this thread.
  I think this person is already treating the IR like a setting - he speaks of keeping the medieval feel, and that is a campaign reference.

  - - -

  Rincewind

  Go check out the Mondus Fumus setting in the Whereabouts boards... the technology there is a fusion of tech and magic (musket with an extradimensional space to store bullets). I'm bumping it now.

  ANSWER:

  Again, someone is offering supplemental material for the questions being raised.
  Even bumping another thread to lend help.

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  I've read the Posts.
  Read them, and concluded that:

  The Industrial Revolution of the Gnomes is not stopped, after all.
  It has the backing of too many allied nations at this point to be easily stopped.

  The gnomes start combining magic with technology (see the articles by Gez on this page and on page one.)
  They invent clean technologies. The skies do not pollute over their cities.
  They build with a minimum of destruction to their environment, using magic.
  The gnomes attempt to deal with their neighbors peacefully, advertising their new technologies as beneficial, something to be desired. 
  The peaceful and beneficial use of combined technology and magic, with all it's new wonders, is advertised in every city that will listen, shown to the people in World Fair type exhibitions.
  Unfortunately, the Zhentarim, Red Wizards, Lords of Calimshan, and the rulers of Mulhorand are not so reasonable.
  These nations and wizards begin a mad production of magical firearms and magical cannon.
  Great Red Wizard Ironbacks with hulls of enchanted steel and Cannons of Accuracy roar into the Sea of Fallen Stars.
  A similar situation occurs in the Moonsea.
  There is no war. Yet.
  The gnomes do not desire war. They will not, however, simply abandon their magical technology because someone asks them to.
  The nations now involved in magical technological research aren't listening to anyone.

  ANSWER:

  One of you, Uvenelei, referred to being in a book, when he referred to the 3rd IR.
  I try to write a story when I DM.
  And by now, I had a sense of story.  The posts had given life and reality to my question, made it into something much greater than any mere question.

  I like writing, and I like writing stories in the air - that is what I tried to do when I was a DM - and here was my chance again.

  It wasn't yet to the full point of massive posting - the IR as you would think of it.
  But it had a reality of it's own, and people were interested, momentum was going, and ... somehow, in some way ... it occurred to me that, for some incredible reason, they were looking to me to moderate this somehow.

  The story, which everyone now calls the IR, started here.

  And I decided at this point I would continue to moderate, and throw in more material, and place more posts that got rises out of people, and build the whole thing higher and higher.

  It just seemed like the fun thing to do.

  - - -

     Gez

  Thanks to have taken into account my (and also other, less vocal people's) objections on polluting gnomes.
  Well, it's an interesting scenario. Maybe we should propose that to Greenwood (as you place this revolution in the Realms).
  It could make it way in D&D 4e's Realms 
  What would be interesting is that the "Forgotten Folk" will suddenly be the center of much attentions. Maybe this was even the reason of their technocrusade, they were tired of being ignored...
  Hum... With their innate knack for illusion, I think Gnomes could make excellent movie theaters, and fabulous films. I predict a great success of Gnomes in the leisure industry (once Dwarves will have taken over the heavy metalworking industry).

  ANSWER:

  Now, others are calling it a Scenario.
  It's become real.
  And the imagination of a lot of people, has been fired up, and they are ready to vent their imagination furiously.

  - - -

     Estlor

  Here's how you can figure that the industrial revolution would EVENTUALLY be stopped.
  As people move more and more towards technology they invaribly forget how to do things for themselves.
  How many people here know how to ride horses? I'd wager that number is smaller than back in the medival times. Or how many can start a fire with two sticks?
  So people find easier ways to do things. Fighters die out because no one needs to spend all their time training when they can aim and fire. Wizards die out because no one needs to spend years studying light or produce fire when they can flip a switch, take train, irrigate by turning a knob, and so on. With the wonders of technology attainable, people stop looking to the gods to solve their problems and clerics and paladins go out. The barbarians are civilized and become warriors. Druids and elves retreat to the forests and protect themselves with wards. Rogues and bards flourish, as do experts, warriors, and commoners.
  And this continues for 200 years until all the humanoids that knew about the wonders of the fantasy age are dead and buried.
  Then the elves and druids come back, bringing something that no one has known about for years - magic.
  Imagine if a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a sorcerer dropped into the middle of your local city. Do you think the police, or even the army, could stop them? You get a lucky shot in on the wizard, the cleric raised him. 
  The sorcerer tears apart the riot squad with a single fireball. Tanks are swallowed whole and planes buffeted out of the sky by the druid.
  So the gnomes would win for a while, yes. But the Coalition Against Gnomish Technology (CAGT) ultimately moves region by region, cleansing the land from the gnomish perversions, permitting only those limited things that do not upset the natural balance to survive. The druids become the Lords of the Land, acting as regional peace-keepers and overseers. The elves become the Lords of the Culture, acting as the ruling race until humanity can recover from the dark age CAGT sent them spiraling into.
  And ultimately, hundreds of years farther into the future the forces of CAGT have succeeded in breeding a magical United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) that lives in unity with nature and provides for all the needs of the blended culture with clean, efficient magic.
  Oh, the industrial revolution is stopped - this much you can be assured of. And the damage those pesky gnomes caused will be restored with patience and magical purity.

   ANSWER:

  More imagination.
  More answers, and more questions.
  More what ifs?

  And most importantly of all, names.
  Actual names, for the first time, for the Scenario.
  The CAGT (Coalition Against Gnomish Technology.)
  The UTSA (United Toril-Sphere Alliance.)

  It's getting real enough they are creating names for it.

  - - -      

     Abbas

  That's complete nonsense. Nobody would stop to learn Magic, because Spellcasters would earn the big money.
  There are thousand things we would need machines for millions of bucks, a single Wizard or Cleric can do with Magic.

  ANSWER:

  Another match thrown into the dynamite.  
  Of course, the dynamite is already going off, but further posts to set people off never hurt.

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  So, if what I'm hearing (see above Posts) is true, the Gnomish Industrial Revolution gives way to the Supremacy of the Druids and Elves.
  They now rule all of Toril, and no technology is allowed at all that they do not permit.
  In fact, they rule all of Realmspace. The United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) reigns supreme.
  All you dwarves out there, take note!

  ANSWER:

  My silly hypothetical continuation of the story.
  It was only my second Story Post.
  It was made in the spirit of pure fun.

  I simply thought - look at all those posts about elves and druids whelming the poor gnomes!  I guess the gnomes are buried!
  So, I posted this.

  I was still warming up to the story, and the posts were still coming in slowly.
  I still - even now - did not realize what was about to happen.

  For all I knew, interest in the thread would die then and there - hadn't the elven posters made their point?
  Wasn't it pretty obvious the gnomes were history?
  I was wrong.
  I was staggeringly wrong.
  What happened next, astonished me beyond words.
  I could never have guessed just how sky-high it would blow.  It was like a shooting star, when it finally hit.

  - - -

     naya

  my 25th level merchant (let's make him a rogue)... will work an alliance with the gnomes (with my +36 in diplomacy and my charisma of 28, my "natural" roll of 20).. then i'll create the first multinational company. i'll hire little half-orcs children to work in my factories 15 hours a day and pay them one copper a month (just so that i have an excuse not to call it slavery!).. then with my new superpowerfull company i'll start taking over every single industry and finally taking over the world... that is when I will invent the word "capitalism"...
  after that,my other personality will take over tthe body of the merchat: a 25th level cleric named marx...

  ANSWER:

  Heh.  An answer to my question, and storywriting both.  

  - - -

     Lannon

  quote:

  Originally posted by Estlor:

  Here's how you can figure that the industrial revolution would EVENTUALLY be stopped.
  As people move more and more towards technology they invaribly forget how to do things for themselves. How many people here know how to ride horses? I'd wager that number is smaller than back in the medival times. Or how many can start a fire with two sticks?
  So people find easier ways to do things. Fighters die out because no one needs to spend all their time training when they can aim and fire. Wizards die out because no one needs to spend years studying light or produce fire when they can flip a switch, take train, irrigate by turning a knob, and so on. With the wonders of technology attainable, people stop looking to the gods to solve their problems and clerics and paladins go out. The barbarians are civilized and become warriors. Druids and elves retreat to the forests and protect themselves with wards. Rogues and bards flourish, as do experts, warriors, and commoners.
  And this continues for 200 years until all the humanoids that knew about the wonders of the fantasy age are dead and buried.
  Then the elves and druids come back, bringing something that no one has known about for years - magic.
  Imagine if a wizard, a cleric, a druid, and a sorcerer dropped into the middle of your local city. Do you think the police, or even the army, could stop them? You get a lucky shot in on the wizard, the cleric raised him. The sorcerer tears apart the riot squad with a single fireball. Tanks are swallowed whole and planes buffeted out of the sky by the druid.
  So the gnomes would win for a while, yes. But the Coalition Against Gnomish Technology (CAGT) ultimately moves region by region, cleansing the land from the gnomish perversions, permitting only those limited things that do not upset the natural balance to survive. The druids become the Lords of the Land, acting as regional peace-keepers and overseers. The elves become the Lords of the Culture, acting as the ruling race until humanity can recover from the dark age CAGT sent them spiraling into.
  And ultimately, hundreds of years farther into the future the forces of CAGT have succeeded in breeding a magical United Toril-Sphere Alliance (UTSA) that lives in unity with nature and provides for all the needs of the blended culture with clean, efficient magic.
  Oh, the industrial revolution is stopped - this much you can be assured of. And the damage those pesky gnomes caused will be restored with patience and magical purity.


  This is crazy. You are vastly exagerating the powers available to wizards and you are totally ignoring the advantages available in modern technology. You bet I think an army with rifles could take out a long pc party. It would take all of an instant for the military to put so much metal in them that they wouldnt be recognizable as human. That could happen in the first round of combat. Yah one riot squad down, of course that does nothing for the thousands behind him. All of those thousands carrying firepower superior to batallions of sword wielding men. All that firepower in little cartridge loaded weapons. You think the fighter can stand up to that, the wizard, the cleric? Give me a break!!!
  Not to meantion that you are still ignoring the fact that magic will have its uses. Ignoring the fact that we have modern day warriors, ignoring the fact that we have modern day clerics.
  The stupid druids can be massacred so can the elves. And guess what if no one is worshipping the gods they start to slip farther and farther away. No more magic spells for clerics and druids. Not to meantion that if, as you suggested (because i certainly didnt), that wizards begin to disappear then so does the weave and so does mystra. No more magic period. Of course there isnt any need to kill off magic, like I said an enchanted assault rifle would be something special.

  ANSWER:

  Look at how the emotion continues to build.
  We have quite an argument now, on which would win - magic or technology.
  Nevermind the philosophical side of the debate.

  - - -

  Lannon

  bump

  ANSWER:

  Yes.  For a brief time, the whole thing died completely.  I thought it was over.
  Lannon had to bump up the thread, which had fallen back to page 2.
  A quiet lull set in.

  - - -

  TheBalor

  therein lies your error. MODERN technology, my friend, does not yet exist. The best they have are flintlocks, and those take forever to load. I wonder why we all think it would erupt into war. Mages would make the best of the situation, and although there are many things nowadays that can do a fraction of the things wizards could do( though at a much,much higher price) wizards can ALWAYS outdo I.R. technology. And clerical magic would stay strong, for though there are many millions of atheists/agnostics in this world, I believe that is due to the utter lack of proof of divinity. Clerics are also far more efficient, and can bring back the dead. BUT, if steampunk,wizardry, and clerical magic combine...Man, you'd have one helluva civilization. As for druids and rangers? F*ck them.

  ANSWER:

  I thought (and still think) the Balor was great.
  His articles, his intensity, his ardor, helped create the IR and make it what is was.
  I miss his posts.

  - - -                            

  Blood Jester

  How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you, but I give off no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility. As far as bullets, you are forgetting Protection from Normal Missiles. As far as the early days of the war go, our own history tell you that a squad of archers will annihilate easily twice their number of musket, or even single shot rifle types.
  Our world had many cultural blocks to the growth of archer based armies. The few who utilized archers gained overwhelming victories in what seemed to be one sided battles against them. In a world with such things as Elven nations dedicated to archery, and archer based military, the early gunners and artillerists are screwed. Guns became popular because any idiot can pick one up and kill with it with no training, but if there had been an army against it's makers, and they (the pro-tech types) had armed their soldiers with, say, Civil War era guns, the archers would win with very few casualties. The guns development would have ended right then and there, along with the rest of the 'Industrial Revolution' that the Elvish army was out to halt. (And btw, trained police officers, who I respect, miss way more than two thirds of their shots at shoot-out ranges of under six feet according to their own statistics.)
  The 'why' of the war is the existence of the ability to see the future, and of gods who do not want their world ruined. Add in that the 'D&D Universe' is supposed to be based on more absolute standards of Good and Evil, and you have people out to stop the eventual destruction of their world. Make no mistake, bad people will make trains that pollute, and will toss their garbage anywhere, regardless of ways to do things cleanly because, hey "dem wizurds cost money, and I gots to gets my profits!" (can't lose those extra three coppers a month.) Not to mention noise pollution, and the disturbance to the virgin forests inherent in building and running even a 'clean' 'elevated' railway straight across the land. (And remember, Faerun is not the cesspool of misery that the real dark ages were and has magic, so the growth of technology is not needed to feed the people, or stem the spread of disease. And there are plenty of races who are at their essence magic, and would rapidly be killed by our polluted way of living.)

  So, back to war, and Death To Technology!

                           Blood Jester

  ANSWER:

  I think he had a lot of fun with that article, Blood Jester did.
  There was a great deal of philosophy in the article, a great deal of carefully laid out thought, and a lot of opinion.

  The point is not whether Blood Jester was right or wrong about any of what he had to say.

  The point is that Blood Jester was MOTIVATED to say what he said.
  He was having fun.
  The IR was real enough in his mind to have fired his imagination, and to be fun to discuss.
  He was getting something out of posting, something intrisically fun.

  That was the real magic of the first IR, that it went from a silly question, to something that could fire the imagination of people, inspire people to write long and thought out philosophical articles about it, long technical articles, discourses in IRL history, not to mention all the actual IR story itself.

  Nobody was e-mailing me here, folks.
  This was strictly on the boards.
  This was strictly between them, and I was for the most part an observer only.
  Yet look at how much they cared.
  Look at how much effort they put into this.
  People only have limited time IRL - they had to have cared a lot to have devoted this kind of time to this thread.

  Blood Jester and Estlor would become the Elven Players of the 1st IR.

  - - -

  mastermind

  bump

  ANSWER:

  Again, as I said, this was a lull in the IR, where there were few posts.
  Thus, this second bump.
  The lull, as it were, ended here.

  - - -

     Edena_of_Neith


  Ok, I have read the above Threads.
  And, I must conclude, sadly, that:

  The elves and druids do actually go to war against the gnomes and all the nations industrializing.
  Some nations and religions join the elves and druids.
  Some nations and religions join the gnomes and industrializing nations.
  Let us assume a major war is now in progress on Toril.

  Which side does your character take? And why?
  If your character does not take sides, and remains neutral, why?

  ANSWER:

  You know me.
  Rabble-rouser.
  I would have to go and ask that question.
  I was not moderator per se yet - there was no game to moderate.
  I just tried a variation on my original question - I took the situation I envisioned from all their posts, wrote it out, and said:  what would you do?

  Seemed a good way to keep things going.

  - - -

  Gez

  I join the Gnome!
  Fight the stupid, obscurantist Druids who do not understand technology, magic and nature can combine nicely!
  Kill these obnoxious, elitists bastards!
  Estlor, your Druids are Talibans!
  I encourage all who want to fight against obscurantism and oppression to choose the good side: the Gnome Technomages' one!
  (And for all the do-gooders here, I'll repeat once again that Gnomes are NG, whereas Druids are TN:  Gnomes act for the betterment of all, Druids act to protect the statu-quo, even if it's not optimal).
  Estlor, be ready for a bad surprise: Gnomish technology is deeply entertwined with magic. People continue to become wizard, cleric (and even druid) in the industrialized land, because they fit the engineer/scientist role.
  So, magic don't disappear, it even becomes omnipresent. In the average gnomish city, you have everwarm chamber vaporing everflowing water, the vapor activate electric generator, condensate, and is then canalized to warm habitations, before being annihilated (to avoid flooding).
  Vehicles are similarly powered by magical infinite energy sources. Magic is studied.
  As a result, the gnome industry will not looks like our mundane industry, far from it. Magical wards will protect engine. And when the army will have to battle the revolted Taliban-druids, the Gnomish Military Force will have +5 Rifles, +4 Cannons of Flaming Burst loaded with +3 Brillant Energy Flaming Missile; soldiers will be equipped by Adamantine Powersuit of Lifeforce regenerations, etc.
  It will not be a fight of High Magic against Technology, but a fight of Primitivism+High Magic against High-Tech+High-Magic.
  Guess who will won...

  ANSWER:

  Nevermind the Taliban remarks (this was long before 9/11.)

  This was a true storywriting post.
  No answers to questions here - this was an In Your Face We Will Win! post.
  Storywriting.
  The story of the 1st IR.
  The beginning of the War of the First IR.

  - - -

  Gez

  Invisibility ?
  Duh! Have you seen the Bow of True Arrow ? True Strike at will! (so you fire one round on two, but you're pretty sure to hit).
  True Strike allow you to ignore miss chance due to concealment, invisibility, blur, displacement, mirror image, etc. Against anything!
  Protection from arrow give you DR 20/+1 against projectile weapons.
  All I can tell you is that Keen Flaming +5 bullets fired by a +5 Rifle of True Hits will be something like d12+1d6+10 damages, ignoring all DR except those of the X/- forms, and ignoring misschance from all magic tricks.
  Re-read my posts (I insist) all you gnome-haters: they will have several gods behind them (BTW, you do remember that Gond, Deneir and Mystra are rather friendly ? All knowledge-deity tend to appreciate each other).
  You know, reloading time for a Magical Musket with Bullet of Returning is pretty small: you fire, you hit, the bullet is ready, lather, rinse, repeat.
 Gnome Rules !

  ANSWER:

  The War is building.  The story has started, and is being written.
  Will others join in? 
  It takes more than one to write a story, D&D style.

  - - -

     Estlor

  You honestly over-estimate the human nature that everyone has.

  Point in case: Humans are lazy. Do you know how a VCR works? Not exactly, because all you need to know is press play and it does.

  So even if the technology would be magical (which, if you go back to page 1, it states they discover STEAM power, which is natural and implies their technology will be a natural development, not magical), only a handful would even remember the magic needed to build it. Suppose you have an efficient, enchanted construction plant where all you do is turn a nob and a gnomish whizzel-wob is created. After a hundred years, no one has a clue how to make a whizzel-wob because all they know is turn a nob and it's there.
  Likewise, the machine never breaks down, so no one knows how to enchant a new one.
  So when the elvish wizards come and dispel the machine, no more whizzel-wobs.
  Do you know how to fix your car at home? Most do not because they don't have to. Imagine a world where enchanted cars never broke down. Soon no one would know how to fix them or enchant them because they always were just there.
  Even if technology is for the good of all, that's why the elves and druids oppose it. Technology makes people lazy and ignorant. By taking the technology away and creating a new society, the elves foster the relearning of lost crafts and arts until the world is a more learned place.
  So yes, people WOULD stop practicing magic and praying to the gods for help. Why waste all that time learning magic missile when you can pick up a gnomish handgun of oopsie and do the same thing with no training? And with no potions of longevity in the game anymore, soon the great masters die out and only the elves and druids have magic.
  Face it, the gnomes may have good intentions, but the advent of technology means the destruction of magic as we know it. And as such, the new Gnomish Trade League (GTL) will eventually fall to he CAGT and give yield to the UTSA. And thank heavens that the elves are good as well - imagine if the orcs took over!

  ANSWER:

  The story has a second writer now.
  Estlor.
  He and Gez are now writing the first chapter of the IR.
  No more questions to me, no more what ifs.
  We have a scenario here, and by Jove, our side would win!
  Here are all the reasons why.

  - - -

  Blood Jester

  quote:

  Originally posted by Gez:

  Invisibility ?
  Duh! Have you seen the Bow of True Arrow ? True Strike at will! (so you fire one round on two, but you're pretty sure to hit).
  True Strike allow you to ignore miss chance due to concealment, invisibility, blur, displacement, mirror image, etc. Against anything!
  Protection from arrow give you DR 20/+1 against projectile weapons.
  All I can tell you is that Keen Flaming +5 bullets fired by a +5 Rifle of True Hits will be something like d12+1d6+10 damages, ignoring all DR except those of the X/- forms, and ignoring misschance from all magic tricks.
  Re-read my posts (I insist) all you gnome-haters: they will have several gods behind them (BTW, you do remember that Gond, Deneir and Mystra are rather friendly ? All knowledge-deity tend to appreciate each other).
  You know, reloading time for a Magical Musket with Bullet of Returning is pretty small: you fire, you hit, the bullet is ready, lather, rinse, repeat.
  Gnome Rules !



  Gez:

  I was going off topic and replying to your comments about modern day 'real world' police dealing with the sudden appearance of an adventuring party. 
  But I will say that most of the pro-techno folks seem to be relying on a LOT of magic to win this war. What happens when the majority of mages and non-PC-race magic beings join the anti-tech side out of self-preservation?
  Also, druids no longer need to be true neutral any more. Things will get scary when the Neutral Good and Neutral Evil druids band together in a common cause (along with the LN, CN, and TN druids.)

  Blood Jester

  Most of the pro-techno folks seem to be relying on a LOT of magic to win this war.
  So Blood Jester said.
  Technology.  Magic.  Technology.  Magic.  Technomagic.  Technomancy.

  - - -

     Icarus

  Well, it has been an interesting read, but now I think I'll answer the question.

  My players would either:
  A - jump on the tech bandwagon and milk it for all its worth.

  Or

  B - fight to the death against the encroaching technologies.

  ANSWER:

  Well, that's both sides, of course, but it is a response.  Someone else is now involved.

  - - -

  Enkhidu

  As an interesting aside...

  You might want to pick up a book called The Case of the Toxic Spell Dump. It's a neat book that details a "modern" world that uses magic for all the little things that we use technology for.
  It's an interesting, Alternate Earth read.

  Enkhidu

  ANSWER:

  Another case of someone being nice enough to offer supplemental material they knew about to aid those posting.

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  Looking at the Posts above, I would have to conclude that the gnomes and their industrializing allies are currently winning the war against the elves and druids.
  Primarily because the gnomes and their allies are also using magic, in addition to their technology. 
  They are combining technology and magic into technomagic.
  Their foes are only using pure magic.
  Also, the gnomes are winning because their allies are ruthless.
  Ruthless. These industrializing nations are willing to do whatever it takes to win, building ever better (and more horrific) weapons of war, attacking and burning whole elvish forests, devastating their own natural environments with mines and logging.
  The gnomes disavow such behavior, and do not engage in it, but they have no control over their power mad allies, who see technomagic as the way to world supremacy.
  The gnomes might even go to war against these nations, but the elves and druids are attacking them also, so the gnomes have no choice but to carry on their part of the war against said elves and druids.
  The nations who have joined the elves and druids are at a disadvantage.
  They have only pure magic, and no technomagic.
  Thus, they are outmatched. They are fighting hard, but the magical firearms and magical cannon, the enemy Ironbacks of the sea, are taking a heavy toll on them.

  ANSWER:

  Heck, I was just speaking my mind.
  I was guessing how some of the nations of Faerun would react to technology and technology and magic combined.
  And ... again, don't ask me why ... I thought it would be a neat idea to balance all the posts on a scale, and see which side had won the debate (for I saw it as a debate of a sort, at that time.)
  And it seemed to me that the gnomes now had the upper hand.
  The sense of story grew steadily.

  - - -

     Riot Gear

  My character, of no special importance, would definitely join the Technomagocracy. Guns are cool. 
  "BANG! Hee hee hee he...."

   ANSWER:

  There it is.  Technomagocracy.  
  The first reference to the Technomancy.
  The Technomancy that ultimately became the United Commonwealth of Toril.
  In my opinion, the giving of a name to the concept made it more real yet, and certainly it was becoming real in the mind of the writer.

  By real, of course, I mean - real fantasy.  Real enough to stir the imagination, the emotions, and fire someone up to write.

  - - -

  TheBalor


  Lessee here...in one cornah lots of animals. With a teensy bit of magical backup. And a bunch of hippie elves. Against archmages, goodly, neutral, and evil priests, just about every nation/city-state/powerful orginization in the world that believes in progress, and better lives for their people(or more power). Huh.
  Who's in the right now? 

  ANSWER:

  I loved Balor's posts.  He was great.
  And this was more matches in the dynamite.

  - - -                                       

  DarwinofMind

  quote:

  Originally posted by Blood Jester:
  How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you, but I give off *no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility. Blood Jester
*


  Very simply, Eventually someone will invent RADAR or SONAR. In fact in a world with invisiblity they would be invented faster, Your not phased, the Radar or Sonar ping will bounce off you so slick, If you really want to hide from technology you have to go etherial, invisiblity isn't going to do it.

  ANSWER:

  Darwin of Mind was one of the best people in the first IR.
  I remember him, and miss his posts greatly.
  This was his first post, and as you can see he has jumped whole-heartedly into the magic versus technology argument.
  He has jumped head first into the infant IR.

  - - -

     Blood Jester

  Everyone seems to be overlooking those teensy-weensy magical critters we humbly refer to as DRAGONS.
  Since these guys are all intelligent enough to see a train-wreck headed their way, I think I can safely say they will pretty much unanimously way in on the side of us 'wussy' elves, druids, and critters. There is no way that the technomagic side can hope to scale up the pace of their discovery/invention cycle fast enough to counter these bad boys. Our side will use our magic (as well as their own) to buffer them against the 'magic' side of the technomagic coalition, and they can easily handle anything 'tech' that the fledgling technomagic forces can hurl at them.
  Score one for the good guys.

  Blood Jester

  ANSWER:

  This was great!  
  This was strong storywriting.
  It enabled me to escalate the war.
  It drew more people into the thread.
  It heightened emotions and feelings.

  If every action has an equal and opposite reaction, then this action certainly proves that statement, and then some.

  - - -

  Blood Jester

  quote:

  Originally posted by DarwinofMind:

  Very simply, Eventually someone will invent RADAR or SONAR. In fact in a world with invisiblity they would be invented faster, Your not phased, the Radar or Sonar ping will bounce off you so slick, If you really want to hide from technology you have to go etherial, invisiblity isn't going to do it.


  Silence 15' Radius. Bye-bye Sonar. And I think RADAR will take long enough to develop to be irrelevant in our little conflict. And in the 'real' world, radar can NOT target accurately enough (from a hand-held unit) for a foot soldier to target an individual with a handgun unless they stand still for a long time and let him set up two tripods with RADAR and gun to target.

  ANSWER:

  Our little conflict.
  Heh.  He said it.  Now, that could mean our little debate.
  But it ended up being:  Our campaign scenario.

  - - -

     DarwinofMind

  Just as one final thing for everyone on this thread that seems to think that technology would never devolop in DND world becuase magic is better, You'ld better rule 0 out the crossbow. 

  Oh while your at it, Rule 0 out the sword, It I can throw a fireball at you, why invent the sword.

  Technology just happens, It's so much better than spells that you can only use so many times a day. It's inevitable.

  None of your Eco Warriors are Eco Warriors becuase no one realizes without looking into the future that this is dangerous to the enviroment and no one is going to waste there per day spell alotment on looking into the future of this without reason.

  ANSWER:

  An ardent post.  MORE matches into the dynamite.
  Heck, who needed me???  They had a roaring fireworks show going long before I got fully into the mix!

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  Very well. The above article makes sense. I'll go with it.

  The dragons join the war on the side of the elves and druids.
  The entrance of dragons into the war escalates everything dramatically.
  Subsequently, there is colossal destruction as those dragons target industrial areas.
  Huge explosions and fires destroy large areas of major cities. Dragons streak across the skies, smashing trains and sinking ironbacks. The fledgling telegraph invented by the gnomes, communications carried by wires, is shredded.
  Farmers everywhere flee their fields, leaving their crops to rot, terrified of the death from the sky. 
  Subsequently, anarchy and starvation, and disease, break out over wide areas of Faerun.
  Now, there is GREAT anger against the elves, druids, and their draconic allies, because of the massive civilian casualities.
  In the city firestorms, thousands burned to death. Others lie crippled and maimed from explosions. Strict rationing of food is in effect, and people spend much of their time in newly built underground shelters.
  The gnomes suffered less because they were underground heavily to begin with, but they now firmly embrace their allies, and ignore all the deprivations their allies had been doing, because what the dragons are doing is much worse.
  The loose coalition of industrializing nations, previously only a loose confederation, declares themselves unified against the foe.
  They are taking the elves, druids, and dragons seriously now.
  They are now longer thinking about defeating these enemies.
  They are thinking about exterminating these enemies.
  There is now a state of total war. 
  All elves caught in the gnomish/industrialized states regions are imprisoned or killed outright.
  All druidical religions are outlawed in these areas, the druids imprisoned or killed, and all other clerical institutions are shut down or convert over to wartime, using their powers to aid their native lands.

  ANSWER:

  A combination of storywriting and rabble-rousing.
  By this time, I knew there would be a reaction to whatever I wrote - I knew this thread was taking off.
  And, I was actively writing a story now - I had begun the storywriting in the air that I like to do so much.

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  Oh yes, I forgot something.

  Considering the capabilities of archmages and archmagistresses with Time Stop (see the thread How to cast 19 to 54 spells using the core rules):
  A second wave of massive destruction hits both sides as the archmages and archmagistresses take to the field.
  Kings and Queens die, their royal palaces are smashed flat, mage towers are blown to smithereens, secret fortresses annihilated, command and control centers disintegrated, and vast numbers of civilians flee the exposed cities for the imagined safety of forest and country.

  ANSWER:  

  They really DID figure out how to throw 54 spells in 3E (for that matter, someone figured out how to throw over 100 spells in a round in 3E ...)
  However, nevermind that.
  More storywriting from Yours Truly.
  And more rabble-rousing.

  - - -

  paperboy

  Hmmm . . . well, let's see. Gnomes, industrial revolution, capitalism, modernism, . . . I got it. I would wait it out. As a 25th level wizard I'd extend my life a good long time and wait for the world to turn real sour.
  We are talking full-on modernization of enough of the globe to create a worldwide consummer society that it totally dependant on what is essentially an information storage device. And THAT is when I will spring into action. I will rename myself "Bill Gates" and head up a 'company' called microsoft. Eventually I will become the single most wealthy and powerful mortal in existence and be able to defy even the gods. I figure by then I'll be like 90th level, if I play my cards right, and then I will simply ascend into the heavens with my unlimited power and cause no end of misery on earth. For you see, I will be an evil god who creates software that is glitchy and funky and dumb. Muhahah. MUhahah. MUAHAHAHH!!!

  . . . never let me post again. 

   ANSWER:

  Heh.  Humor again.  One always needs humor, folks.

  - - -

     Edena_of_Neith

  War Update #1:

  On the side of the Elvish Alliance:

  Blood Jester (he was always on the elven side, and has won great renown)
  Estlor (he was always on the elven side, and is famous for talking the dragons into fighting on the elven side)
  Victim (he is famous for helping to start the war, with his massive sabotage of machines, factories, depots, and the destruction of vast amounts of gnomish research. He's still fighting, leading his covert forces to victory)

  On the side of the Technomancy Confederation:

  The Balor (he was neutral, but he didn't like elves or druids, apparently - they tried to arrest him, so he joined the technomancy)
  Darwin of Mind (he was neutral, but his opinions caused the elves to arrest him: he's escaped and joined the technomancy)
  Gez (he was always on the technomancer side, and he is ardently fighting in their cause)
  Icarus (he's actually on both sides, but nevermind that ... )
  Lannon (he's been on the technomancer side from the start, and has won great victories for them)
  Riot Gear (he's eagerly joined the technomancer side)

  Neutrals 

  Enkhidu (this philosophical character is contemplating it all, and trying to stay out of the mess)
  Naya (not on either side, but he IS now a wealthy character: his war profiteering and slave labor tactics have filled his secret treasury with a million gold pieces)
  Paperboy (he, like a lot of other figures in the shadows, is waiting for the war to end so he can take over in the ensuing power vacuum)

  Upper Krust, where are you?! You could end this war - you're bright enough to figure out the way to finish it ...

  ANSWER:

  Don't ask me why I did this.
  This was the first of my ... long ... posts (you know, the Lists posts, etc.?)
  I knew the thread was taking off, and I wrote this.
  Chalk it up to obsession.
  I guess I became obsessed with the story.  Why else write up such a discertation?
  So, I organized everything that had happened into a clear scenario.

  - - -

     elfric

  My gnome would be in the front of the train shouting "stupid humans it´s our time now" lalalalala

  ANSWER:

  Heh.  More humor.

  This was the end of page 3.

  And now, more than a week after my first post ... it all blew sky high.

  - - -

  Dr Skull

  I'd join the Gnomes in a second. (Besides the fact that I hate Druids and often play Gnomes. Technology means more leisure and less hard work for more people, and I'm all for that.

  ANSWER:

  An answer, and strong opinions.

  - - -

  buzzard

Originally posted by Blood Jester:
  How does technology deal with Improved Invisibility? Remember, it's magic, I can see you, but I give off *no energy in ANY spectrum, if I did dwarves would be immune to Invisibility.
  As far as bullets, you are forgetting Protection from Normal Missiles. As far as the early days of the war go, our own history tell you that a squad of archers will annihilate easily twice their number of musket, or even single shot rifle types. Our world had many cultural blocks to the growth of archer based armies. The few who utilized archers gained overwhelming victories in what seemed to be one sided battles against them. In a world with such things as Elven nations dedicated to archery, and archer based military, the early gunners and artillerists are screwed. Guns became popular because any idiot can pick one up and kill with it with no training, but if there had been an army against it's makers, and they (the pro-tech types) had armed their soldiers with, say, Civil War era guns, the archers would win with very few casualties. The guns development would have ended right then and there, along with the rest of the 'Industrial Revolution' that the Elvish army was out to halt. (And btw, trained police officers, who I respect, miss way more than two thirds of their shots at shoot-out ranges of under six feet according to their own statistics.)
  Blood Jester



  I'd restate your anti-tech argument if I were you. Civil war guns are actually enough superior to bows and arrows to prove you wrong. Earlier ones were pretty poor, but once the Minie ball was introduced, there was a sea change in warfare. The Minie ball allowed for reasonable rapid reloading of rifled weapons. This increased effective range to something like 1000 yards. No bow can do that. Also given the pre packages charges and bullets, reloading was not so slow anymore. You took out the paper case, tore it with your teeth, poured it down the barrel, dropped a bullet on it (I'm not sure if you had to pack it down or not in this era, you probably did), placed a percussion cap on the firing pan, and BLAM. Then you could really reach out and touch someone. The civil war was so bloody because technology had advanced while tactics hadn't.
  Also the Civil war did see the introduction of repeating rifles (the Henry and the Spencer), breechloading artillery, and the Gatling gun. 
  Protection from normal missiles will do nothing against artillery. Improved invisibility won't do much against massed fire into the area. 
  However, if you are talking about earlier weapons, like American Revolutionary War period, then yes, those muskets sucked. However the case was made for Railroad era technology, and since weapons always keep pace with other technology, I'd say the mages are in trouble. 
  Also the real advantage of the tech side- logistics. Railroads mean you can get your troops to any battle much more quickly. Thus troops don't need to be dispersed to guard a front. Also re-supply becomes much easier. 
  I'm not saying that it's be a romp or anything, but technology does have its advantages. 

  Buzzard

  ANSWER:

  A strong post, backed by historical facts.
 Someone wanted to make a real point here.

  - - -

  zouron

  My level 25th necromancer (actually he is more but that is another matter) would make alliances on the technomancer sides early, and while the was escalate gather an huge army of undead to protect his interest, while he would aid the gnome with extensive magical knowledge and research. His life devoted to the study of magic he would use his alliance with the gnomes to gather all magical material book, knowledge and so on he could, make his carstle a sanctuary for all people devoted solely to magic as a protection. By the time the dragons do enter the war and the time mage do start his estate would be well protected by the magic and observing the war, the gnomes no longer completely honouring their agreement would still be kept allianced, but in a passive way. 
  My necromancer would gather those he could and prepare for the gods interception in the war, just in case setting up a stronghold on a demiplane specifically created for this, gather all things magical they can. The undead armies gathered would still be guarding the estate but also expanding their territory gathering land as far as possible, devoting the land to the study of magic, integrrated with technology and as a stand alone, using whatever means of magic and technology to keep enemies at bay. This there is a large focus on magic education of youth also becomes an important part of those villages/towns gathered under their
rule. 
  The plan is to gatehr as much magic as possible and create a safe haven for it, offering that druids can study side by side with gnomes how to make nature and technology co-exist, but at the same time use powerful magic that those that comes over their board are true to their word and bind them to their agreement. 
  As soon as a reasonable power base at home is established, then seek out both parts to negotiate peace treaty for the better of all.
  hmm sounds like gun 

  ANSWER:

  As I was storywriting at this point, I took this post and added it to my story (or, rather, their story.)
  Thus, the Magocracy of Zouron was created (and Zouron the Dark is still around today.)

  - - -

  Lannon

  Originally posted by Edena_of_Neith:

  Very well. The above article makes sense. I'll go with it.

  The dragons join the war on the side of the elves and druids.
  The entrance of dragons into the war escalates everything dramatically.
  Subsequently, there is colossal destruction as those dragons target industrial areas.
  Huge explosions and fires destroy large areas of major cities. Dragons streak across the skies, smashing trains and sinking ironbacks. The fledgling telegraph invented by the gnomes, communications carried by wires, is shredded.
  Farmers everywhere flee their fields, leaving their crops to rot, terrified of the death from the sky. 
  Subsequently, anarchy and starvation, and disease, break out over wide areas of Faerun.
  Now, there is GREAT anger against the elves, druids, and their draconic allies, because of the massive civilian casualities.
  In the city firestorms, thousands burned to death. Others lie crippled and maimed from explosions. Strict rationing of food is in effect, and people spend much of their time in newly built underground shelters.
  The gnomes suffered less because they were underground heavily to begin with, but they now firmly embrace their allies, and ignore all the deprivations their allies had been doing, because what the dragons are doing is much worse.
  The loose coalition of industrializing nations, previously only a loose confederation, declares themselves unified against the foe.
  They are taking the elves, druids, and dragons seriously now.
  They are now longer thinking about defeating these enemies.
  They are thinking about exterminating these enemies.
  There is now a state of total war. 
  All elves caught in the gnomish/industrialized states regions are imprisoned or killed outright.
  All druidical religions are outlawed in these areas, the druids imprisoned or killed, and all other clerical institutions are shut down or convert over to wartime, using their powers to aid their native lands.


  Very well the dragons are in it. Now its time to make them an offer. Look at this prototype most magnificent dragon, for us this is a monstrously huge gun which would be unwieldy in combat and impossible for us to use. For you it is the ultimate extension of your own prowess. We offer you a handgun for the dragon, no other creature has the strength and power of you and your brethren. Only you dragons can use these weapons... If you will take up arms on our side we will begin providing these arms to your most magnificent selves. Will you be willing to aid us? 
  As for magic, we realize its usefulness. It helps our economy, helps production, and our mages can keep their mages busy. 
  And remember to give our industrialized societies a chance to retaliate Edena, we have to be able to kill some of these dragons and some of these mages...
  I think its time to set some ounfriendly neighbors homes on fire, and I want to know about the dragons responses.

  been fun

  COMMENT:

  Notice that in this post, Lannon is actually gaming for the first time.
  He is no longer just asking or answering or rebuking questions.
  He is actually gaming, and knowingly storywriting alongside me.
  This is the first post in the IR where someone said:  

  I do (statement of action), Edena.  What happens?

  - - -

  maddman75

  Alright boys and girls, try this one on for size....

  The great technology war has spread across faerun. Several powerful characters would likely seek to escape to somewhere saner. Some of them would undoubtedly make thier way to Sigil to relax a bit. 
  The planars would hear of this war between nature and the technology. The celestial would weep at the loss of life. The Modrons might be tempted to go and join the gnomes. The Slaadi would eat whoever was trying to tell them about it.
  But the demons and devils would drool.
  Both would want the weapons for the blood war. Devils would appear and make offers to the gnomes, help against the nature lovers in exchange for thier weaponry.
  The Demons would start raiding the gnomish areas mercilessly, stealing what they could. As the war escalates, several Demon princes try to make deals with the nature lovers - we'll help you destroy the techies, just let us take the stufff when the fighting is over.
  It doesn't really matter if either side takes the fiends up on thier offer. They will see this as a possible edge in their endless war. They will send fiend after fiend into faerun, fighting for all eternity. By the time the gnomes or techies could be said to have won, the fiends will be so deeply entrinced they will have forgotten why they are fighting on this plane in the first place. Faerun is now the from lines in the Blood War.

  I hope you gnomes are happy!

  ANSWER:

  A second person has started gaming.
  A second person is no longer asking questions or answering them, but is actively and knowingly writing his own story to add to the IR.

  - - -

  Lannon

  Furthermore, now that we have technology we are not as needful of magic arms for our men. Our mages and dragons can be offered a large percentage of the magical spoils and we need only collect large amounts of essential ore (iron, steel, etc). 
  As said we can use enhancements on our weapons. Our weapons can be enchanted. These can be accuracy enchantments, speed enhancements etc.. Additionally our industrialized societies can keep working on ammunition research, this is most important and needs to be developed. Furthermore, Edena has already given us railroads, so technically we should already have cartridge loaded weaponry. This means that we need only find the mechanisms appropriate for rapid fire capability (of course observe that at this time in our own history the gatling gun was available and had a rate of fire that exceeded most modern machine guns. These rapid firing weapons can be enchanted, perhaps an enchantment to have them spin the barrels on their own... Of course when the technology comes along the magic can be replaced with the mechanics.). 
  Furthermore, its time to contact the dwarves. They should be informed that some are taking a negative view of technology and may take some of their ire out on the followers of Clangeddin(sp?). We would like their help, this will include an offer of peace and joint industrialization and research. "Your dwarven fighters will be given the chance to be trained with our weaponry and the weaponry produced by the revolution in the future.
  This will aid you in your war against the underdark races. And will further protect the dwarven nation from dangerous outlanders. Additionally, your homes will no longer be inhabited by the putrid scum, orcs, and drow. We ask only that we come together as brothers in this war against the barbaric magic users whom do nothing but destroy our homes and unleash dragons in our midst. Will you join us?"
  Furthermore, I want to point out the benefits of technology for those taking part in overland commerce.
  Bodyguards can be armed with powerful weaponry that drastically increases survivability. Undoubtedly the people without magic at hand will recognize its usefulness. And undoubtedly those men and women with magic will recognize its ability to augment their own power. This should encourage some to join us.
  Furthermore, I still do not see why some regions are going to be revolting against industrialiation. So far only fringe groups have been presented as possible dissenters. I have yet to see a reasonable argument as to why any *nation* would want to keep industrialization away from its borders. A non industrialized society simply cannot compete with one that is (see civil war for examples). Furthermore, it provides additional economic opportunities. The only people I have seen upset here are individual players that simply dont want to see industry in the realms. I am not hearing from the huge *nations* that would be adopting this technology. Provide some useful examples of why some nations would revolt against this and then we can have a war. And if we are fighting, well then, all my suggestions above apply. We can make all these offers to different factions, and more...

  been fun

  ANSWER:

  MAJOR storywriting here.  Lannon is fully into the IR now, as much as any of you were, in the 3rd IR.
  Things are in full swing.
  It's increasingly a campaign, not a debate.  The debate gives way to an actual game.

  - - -

     Edena_of_Neith


  War Update #2:

  The war is going very badly for the elves, druids, and their allies, both men and dragons.
  Lannon is successfully talking dragons into switching sides! (you know how dragons are ... where there is loot, there goes a dragon's heart)
  Now the elves are learning what it means to suffer dragon attack.
  Their forests are burning, their tree cities smashed asunder.
  Sacred druid groves, it is discovered, make great aerial targets of opportunity, and the kindling left afterwards makes a great bonfire.
  Thanks to one Maddman75, a large number of Outsiders are joining the war, especially Fiends, and they are taking both sides.
  As long as mages are willing to let them into the world, these Outsiders continue to increase in number.
  Another reason the technomancy is winning is simple: more people are supporting it than people are supporting the elves/druids. 
  Just look at the list below!  And I am guessing that, if more people on this list are taking the technomancer's side, then surely PCs are lining up to fight for the technomancy!

  On the side of the Elvish Alliance:

Blood Jester
Estlor
Victim

On the side of the Technomancy Confederation:

The Balor
Buzzard
Darwin of Mind
Dr Skull
Elfric
Gez
Icarus
Lannon
Zouron (secretly neutral)


Neutrals 

Enkhidu
Naya
Paperboy

  ANSWER:

  Nothing like defining things.
  I defined things by creating Lists.
  Lists, to show who stood where.  To give greater reality to all of it.
  The more real it is, the more people can emotionally connect to it, and the more they will want to post.  The more they will post.

  - - -

  TheBalor

  Whoah, whoah, my side is usin' FIENDS?!! I form a 4th party in this war. The people who want to stop this war before the realms are ripped asunder (though I'm neither mage, engineer, nor elf or druid, so I don't wield alot of power..) I think I could get most of the heros of the realm, plus alot of extraplanar help like celestials, though I could just ask Eremith and have him make everyone kiss and make up before he gives them the mental abilities of lizards. 
  (edit, lol, I just noticed that my stance on this runs contradictory to my sig and my name..)

  ANSWER:

  Now, Balor is gaming, fully.  I now have 3 people who are gaming in the IR, and no longer simply discussing the situation in the hypothetical magic versus technology scenario.

  - - -

  Edena_of_Neith

  There have, indeed, been several calls for peace.
  But peace requires you sit down with the enemy and negotiate.
  Let us assume that is possible.
  Let us assume both sides send negotiators.
  What do you wish to negotiate?
  What terms are you demanding of the other side?
  What price must be paid for peace?

  ANSWER:

  (wicked chuckle)  The first of the Infamous Peace Proposals (and Conferences.)  Don't we know them well?
  This, of course, was storywriting.
  But there was something more.
  A Peace Conference is a place where people can talk.
  Where people can talk, people can post.
  Where people can post, they can argue their side - especially if they are actually gaming fully, and not just debating a theoretical scenario.
  And the more they debate, the more real it becomes, and the more they care about what happens
  The more they are pulled in.

  - - -

  Forrester

  You know, I know it seems like I'm going out on a limb here -- but I'm going to go AGAINST the Elvish Alliance.

  What the hay. Count my goblins 'n kobolds in . . . as long as nobody tries to kill 'em. We humanoids have little problem with pollution -- and this technology stuff could move us out of the proverbial Stone Age. And we hate the drow just as much as you above-worlders. 

  ANSWER:

  Into the 1st IR came a titan.
  Literally.
  His opinions and his posts, his ardent gaming, would help carry the IR.
  He fiercely hated elves IC, and OOC, and he still does.

  Note that Forrester jumped in gaming first, not debating the hypothetical scenario.
  He came into this as a gamer, and assumed control of the humanoids.

  Heck, Estlor and Blood Jester were the elves, Lannon was the technomancy, others were fence-sitting, and now the humanoids were in the story.

  The story was now growing sideways, as well as upward.

  And it was now in full swing.  Posts were coming in faster and faster.
  It was fun.  It was really fun.  I had never seen anything like it before, and I suppose I never will again.*


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## Black Omega (May 14, 2002)

Now that the link is working again...

For those interested in more info on Rokugan there is:

http://www.rpweld3.com/Rokugan/

The Miya Archives have quite a bit of information on Rokugan.


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## Creamsteak (May 14, 2002)

Note: Where should I insert the Gnomish Industrial Revolution territory into Rokugan? The Technomancy has to be there, traditionally. The Technomancy is ALWAYS in the IR.

Edena, you said you might consider playing. May I say: it would be a plus. It would also give you a chance to play from the other side -completely- for once. Me and Tokiwong and Black Omega will do the busy work from back here, and it would be interesting to see what YOU have planned.

Of course, one thing I don't think any of us could do: tell you your plan won't work. It just seems awkward to tell your mentor "no -you don't do it that way!"

Eh, just pondering...

Oh, sense I will be leaving soon... do you guys want to start without me, or wait for me?


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## Black Omega (May 14, 2002)

creamsteak said:
			
		

> *Note: Where should I insert the Gnomish Industrial Revolution territory into Rokugan? The Technomancy has to be there, traditionally. The Technomancy is ALWAYS in the IR.*




Well, you need someone to start the Industrial Revolution.  I wouldn't say there needs to be technomancy.   The magic availible is different in Rokugan than in DnD, for example.  It's all divine and based on spirits.  No continual light to power those photoelectric cells, to steal an example from the first IR.  Also magic items are mostly what are called nemurani, awakened spirits who only work for their owner.  There's nothing resembling the attitude of mass prodiucrtion of magic that exists in FR or GH.

There are a few spots the IR could start.  With the Ox Clan, secretly the last bastion of the Kolat and a minor clan.  The Kolat are working to overthrown the celetrial order and anything that puts commoners on a level with Shugenja and Samurai would appeal to them.  The Kaiu family of the Crab. They are the master engineers, smiths  and architects.  And the IR would suit the Crab, it favors numbers over quality.  And the big edge the shadowlands have is no numbers, it is the mega powerful oni, and masses of samurai with muskets using jade inlayed bullets would be a nice edge.

Either the Unicorn or Mantis could be involved, they are both more outsiders and have contacts with the world outside the empire.

*



			Oh, sense I will be leaving soon... do you guys want to start without me, or wait for me?
		
Click to expand...


*Depends on Tokiwong since he got volunteered to run it.  I'm just typing stuff in for information as the spirit moves me.


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## The Forsaken One (May 14, 2002)

Riot Gear 

My character, of no special importance, would definitely join the Technomagocracy. Guns are cool. 
"BANG! Hee hee hee he...." 


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Heheh LOL, that's Anabstercorian hahaha.

GUNS GUNS GUNS BENG BENG!!!!

hahaha Anab rules!!!


Hihihihihi hey and you know what?
He got his mega hyper dream guns as well hahaa!!!

And it started there!!

Anabster has been with this since the very first thread.
Cool!!!


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## zouron (May 14, 2002)

*First Traitor of the IR hehe*

I guess I didn't realize I am the first to play double game in this IR, to take both sides hehe I guess zouron the dark wasn't far away back then! hehe


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## Anabstercorian (May 14, 2002)

Of course I have!  Of course, now instead of firing hot lead I fire bolts of hyper-energized plasma pressurized in to a semi-solid flechette round, and I fire 3000 rounds a minute instead of 5, but I'm basically the same.
Anabstercorian the character hadn't been named or created yet (back then I was a human sorceror), but I'm sure he was still down in the underdark, scribing the history of the events on the surface in binary record.  After all, he was a historian.


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## Creamsteak (May 14, 2002)

I'll post a poll about the Technomancy Subject. Ox, Crab, Unicorn, Mantis...


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## Black Omega (May 15, 2002)

And some additional information on magic in Rokugan.  The magic users in the Emerald Empire are Shugenja, a sort of divine sorcerer who draws their power from the spirits.  Different families teach specialities in different elements.  Spells from an opposing element are forbidden tothe shugenja.  A shugenja who trains with the Unicorn would learn water magic and thus could not cast fire spells.  These are the elements and the schools that teach them.

Air: Subtle spells involving travel, divination and illusion.
Asahina (Crane)
Soshi (Scorpion)
Toritaka (Crab)

Earth: Spells involving resilience, strength, and endurence.
Kuni (Crab)
Tamori (Dragon)
Yogo (Scorpion)
Kitsune (minor clan)

Fire:  Spells both destructive and creative.
Agasha (Phoenix)
Moshi (Mantis)

Water:  Spells of transformation, cleansing and healing.
Kitsu (Lion)
Iuchi (Unicorn)

Void: Can pick any element to train in or pick the void as their element.
Isawa (Phoenix)


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## Edena_of_Neith (May 18, 2002)

A bump here from ol Edena.


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