# Do Bards still suck?



## Holy Bovine (Aug 12, 2011)

So I have the PF rulebook and have been reading over the changes to the classes mainly and trying to digest and judge those changes.  Many of the classes got significant overhauls & power boosts (Paladin and Barbarian) while some remained untouched (Wizard).  The one thing that jumped out at me was that Bards seem to be much the same as they always were.  That's a little disappointing to me.  I was hoping to see an overhaul of this class on the order of the Rogue (who needed little) or even Sorcerer (bloodlines are a little bookkeepy but seem worth it).  What am I missing?  The bardic music still seems to boil down to the Bluff, bluff the stupid Ogre thing and their high level powers were something of a joke (cause _fear_ at 14th level?  Ugh. _mass cure serious wounds_ with a 4 round 'casting' time?!).  

So what am I missing?  Do bards rock on toast as the party buffer during actual play?  Any significant changes to their spells or spell lists?  I'm likely starting a PF game in the near future and want to know if I should just warn people away from the bard as usual (believe me - 3 attempts to play 3.0 & 3.5 bards have all met with failure with unhappy, overhsadowed players feeling useless to the success of the group)


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## Retreater (Aug 12, 2011)

My experience is yes, they still suck.


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## Systole (Aug 12, 2011)

Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Bards - Pathfinder_OGC


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 12, 2011)

Wizard got buffed, Barbarian was nerfed.

Bards...are about where they were in 3E.  They're definitely not the WORST class (Monk and Rogue well surpass them there), but at the same time, a few classes that were inferior to them in 3E got some nice buffs (Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger), so their ranking on the totem pole slipped a bit, you could say.

They gained more spells per day, eventual swift action bardic performance activation, and the ability to tie a whole lot of skill checks into a handful of perform skills, all helpful.  Unfortunately, their bardic music duration was MASSIVELY cut, now you only get a handful of rounds per day.  Which makes a lot of non-combat songs practically worthless and restricts their buffing power a tad even in combat.  Ultimately, the biggest loss a PF Bard faces is losing all the massive amounts of love they got in 3E splat books (IMO, they got more than anyone except maybe sorcerer).  In a PF-only game, you can't optimize your inspire courage to +14 or whatever nor turn it into +Xd6 sonic damage, you can't snowflake wardance, and you can't go sublime chord for 9th level spell casting in armor with awesome skill points.

To put it more simply...if by "suck" you mean decent at everything but great at nothing...then yeah, they still suck.  But they at least get a bunch of spells per day to win a combat with a save-or-lose*.  Rogue and Monk get to be mediocre at most things and not get redeeming qualities.


*I'm being tongue-in-cheek, I don't actually think winning a combat on a single action is the sole defining characteristic of being useful.  Please don't flame me.

EDIT: The title actually confuses me...  Bards were the 5th best of the core classes in 3E, right after Wizard, Cleric, Druid, and Sorcerer.


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## Thazar (Aug 12, 2011)

Bards got a lot of love in the APG.  They are really much better then they were in 3E.  That is probably in no small part due to James Jacobs is a fan of the class (based upon my impression of his comments and posts) so it gets lots of attention in the in house playtests.


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## Jadeite (Aug 12, 2011)

Bards were a pretty solid class in 3.5. With the changes to Inspire Courage, I'd say they still are a pretty solid class in Pathfinder.


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## Summer-Knight925 (Aug 12, 2011)

Playing a bard is always fun, if you want to play a crafty character that is

some people like the straight up fighter
some like the wizard
some say they're crafty and play rogue

play a bard, lie to your party, steal the loot, write a song about it.


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## TheAuldGrump (Aug 12, 2011)

In my estimation the bard has not sucked since 3.5, though they are, perhaps, one of the more challenging classes to play.

They are probably my third favorite, after wizard and paladin, though the PF sorcerer is close.

They are also, in my opinion the best 'fifth class' - that is after the party already has a wizard/sorcerer, fighter/paladin/barbarian, cleric/druid, and rogue. Being able to boost a full party comes in awfully handy.

The Auld Grump


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## Kaisoku (Aug 12, 2011)

Some rundown of changes from 3.5e to Pathfinder:

*Alignment Restrictions removed.* No Ex-Bards.

*Bardic Music*
- Starting a bardic performance goes from Standard -> Move at 7th, and Move -> Swift at 13th.
_- Maintaining_ a bardic performance went from Standard action (3.5e) to Free action (Pathfinder core, 1st level).
- Also, while doing a bardic performance, you can do whatever you want (including cast spells, etc). It's not "concentration" based, it's only stopped when you are pretty much prevented from making a free action.

_This set of benefits means you can use your bardic performances while doing other actions, like attacking, casting spells, using skills, whatever.
Yes, give everyone the group buff but not be stuck "only buffing".

You lose overall time of usage (and unfortunately out of combat benefits for things like inspire competence), but overall as the bard you can do more._

*Bardic Music (continued)*
- End cap "Deadly Performance" for a save-or-die (and even a make the save and still suck) effect makes it a pretty decent 20th level effect (if you play to that level).
- Stealth boost: Inspire Courage now gives a +competence bonus to attack and damage rolls, not morale. This means it stacks with the Bard-worthy spells of Heroism (Greater) and Good Hope.

*Skills*
- Skill consolidation was the first step towards making a 6 + int class even better at doing skill things.
- Versatile Performance is an amazing class feature that basically means that you can get a pile more out of your skillpionts for having invested into multiple perform skills.
Note: The developers on the Paizo boards have outright stated that you shouldn't be inhibited from character development from a class ability, so ranks that you put into a skill skill that is later covered by Versatile Performance could be reassigned (similar to how Int bonuses give skillpoints retroactively now too).
- Lore Master and Jack of all Trades are not really amazing (unless your group tends to go heavy into Knowledge skills for Lore Master). Jack of all Trades feels a bit low-benefit for the levels you get them at (not really a high level perk all things considered, but hey.. it's added on top of everything else).

_Overall, they feel like a better skills class than the Ranger or Rogue (short of a couple quirks like tracking or stealth while on the move).
If you place any value on skills in your game, then the Bard got a serious improvement in this area (I know some people feel skills are completely replaceable with magic, so I guess YMMV).
_
*Spells*
- The APG granted the Bard a fairly extensive set of utility options for their spells. A lot of "mess with people" effects, and bypassing resistances and immunities (like bypassing DR or hitting incorporeal creatures).
The Finale line of spells give some neat buffing/saving options with the condition of being in the middle of using bardic performance. Allow an ally to reroll a save (like the fighter who just got dominated/etc).
- I haven't checked out Ultimate Magic much yet, but I hear it has some decent offensive options in there.

*General Stuff*
- If you don't like some of the bardic performance options, then the archetypes typically have at least a couple replacements. I like the Arcane Duelist and Sandman options from the APG.
- I haven't checked out Ultimate Magic with regards to Bards much, but Masterpieces are supposed to be decent (although the cost might be a bit high). Not sure what the spells and archetypes do for the class there yet.
- I believe Ultimate Combat has feats to expand use for the Whip, and on top of that, includes an archetype of Archeologist.
This, to me, pushed the class up a notch on the fun factor, regardless of how the class archetype even plays out. Being able to play Indiana Jones? Yes please!


I feel that the "can do bardic performance while attacking and spellcasting, while inspire courage stacks better" that really puts the Bard head and shoulders better than it was in 3.5e. The skill mastery stuff is just gravy on top of that.
And that's the core Bard, without even getting into some crazy archetype or spell combination.

Although there is a thread about using Beguiling Gift (force someone to use an item you hand them) and giving a Druid a metal shield, to force them lose druid powers for 24 hours.
Granted, a Will save-based spell here isn't the best of ideas, but it still makes me chuckle at the thought of that combination.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 12, 2011)

Bards could maintain inspire as a free action in 3.5, too.  It was only songs that required concentration ot maintain, like Fascinate and Suggestion, that cost you your action each round.

"Starting a bardic music effect is a standard action. *Some bardic music abilities require concentration, which means the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability.* Even while using bardic music that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), spell trigger (such as wands), or command word. Just as for casting a spell with a verbal component, a deaf bard has a 20% chance to fail when attempting to use bardic music. If he fails, the attempt still counts against his daily limit."

You couldn't cast spells (feats or Harmoizing weapon fixed that) or use a bunch of magic items.  But you could absolutely fight while performing after starting it.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 12, 2011)

Also, they do get some good new songs.  I like Dirge of Doom at level 8.  It makes foes shaken *with no save* as long as the performance lasts.  Combine it with anything, anything at all that also cases fear and it makes fear escalation easy as pie!


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## Steel_Wind (Aug 12, 2011)

_Inspire Courage_ + _Good Hope_ = +4/+4 to all allies = WIN

I have not played a bard in Pathfinder. I have, however, played WITH a bard in my Kingmaker party for the past 14 months. The Bard is actually our titular Baron/Duke/King in the PCs Kingdom. As a supporting cast member in the party - Bards ROCK.

This is not an isolated opinion. My other gaming group, also playing Kingmaker, are also of the opinion that their own bard, which fulfills the identical role in their Kingmaker campaign is +4/+4 and _Full of Win_. In terms of impact upon play, this bard combo is in a dead heat with the Wizard's _Haste_ spell.

Given that there really is no spell in the game more useful than _Haste_ in terms of multiplying the party's overall combat effectiveness, that's saying a *LOT*.

Not every player is content to play such a supporting role. They are not the front line fighter, nor the front line spellcaster. They do have utility and healing spells which can come in real handy in a pinch -- but they are not the "star" of the underlying combat game. 

But above all, they have their Loremaster ability and _Inspire Courage_ and _Good Hope_._ +4/+4 never, *ever*, gets old._ Add in _Haste_, and we are +5/+4 in Round 1 for essentially the entire combat out of the gate.

No wonder the bad guys don't stand a chance.


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## Crothian (Aug 12, 2011)

The only thing that has caused the bard to suck has been players trying to make the bard character be something else.


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## Ahnehnois (Aug 12, 2011)

Even if bards got 9th level spells, full base attack, and bardic music that granted wishes, they would still suck.


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## paradox42 (Aug 12, 2011)

Ahnehnois said:


> Even if bards got 9th level spells, full base attack, and bardic music that granted wishes, they would still suck.



Funny you mention this- in my Epic house rules, Bards *do* in fact get Bardic Performance that grants _Wish_ at 30th level. 

But for the OP's question? I'll echo Crothian: if you think Bards suck then it's because you wanted to play something else anyway.


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## HalfordAskold (Aug 12, 2011)

Crothian said:


> The only thing that has caused the bard to suck has been players trying to make the bard character be something else.






Bravo!


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## Toben the Many (Aug 12, 2011)

Kaisoku said:


> Some rundown of changes from 3.5e to Pathfinder:




This basically outlines why I don't think that Bards suck in Pathfinder. In our early play-arounds with the system, people were looking over at the guy playing the Bard with mouths agape, saying, "What _is _this? A bard that doesn't suck? A bard that can actually do stuff?" Our bards were slaying giants, picking off bad guys, and generally rocking. They didn't rock the house like a fighter (but they're not supposed to), but they were quite solid.  

The key, I think, is making the right build with the bard. For example, the bard/archer, IMO, is an example of a very effective, very competent build.


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## IronWolf (Aug 12, 2011)

I am generally always happy to sit down at a table with a bard. They tend to be useful in several different scenarios and can provide some nice support during combat.

I have not yet tried my hand at a Pathfinder bard though - perhaps I will put it on my list of character classes to try!


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## TarionzCousin (Aug 13, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> you can't snowflake wardance,



Are you saying bards are no longer *special snowflakes*?


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## Holy Bovine (Aug 13, 2011)

Crothian said:


> The only thing that has caused the bard to suck has been players trying to make the bard character be something else.






paradox42 said:


> But for the OP's question? I'll echo Crothian: if you think Bards suck then it's because you wanted to play something else anyway.




Yeah - uh guys?  how about you take the attitude about how and what I or my friends play into any other thread but this one m'kay?



Steel_Wind said:


> _Inspire Courage_ + _Good Hope_ = +4/+4 to all allies = WIN
> 
> I have not played a bard in Pathfinder. I have, however, played WITH a bard in my Kingmaker party for the past 14 months. The Bard is actually our titular Baron/Duke/King in the PCs Kingdom. As a supporting cast member in the party - Bards ROCK.
> 
> ...




This is what i was really interested in - actual in game experiences!  Thanks Steel Wind!  This looks much more hopeful.  The Bard is most likely one of those classes that plays much better than it looks on paper.



Kaisoku said:


> Some rundown of changes from 3.5e to Pathfinder:
> _snip awesome rundown of bard powers & ability changes_




Thanks!  That is a lot more than was readily apparent from my initial read through.  I always seem to have a hard time 'eyeballing' a new class for power/balance/usefulness after one read through.  It is really helpful to see the side by side comparison of the 2 versions like this.  

Also thanks to everyone else for responding.  If my thread title offended you please believe me when I say it was done with love and a lot of player input (mainly from my wife who played a Bard to 9th level in 3.5 and really grew to hate the class in the end).  I _want_ the Bard to be great.  It doesn't have to overshadow every class or anything but being really good at a few things is really nice to see.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 13, 2011)

Just read the Inspire Courage Optimization thread.  Or look at the Sublime Chord prestige class.  Bards could get very very nasty with supplements.

Even in core only, it's by default the 5th most powerful class just by virtue of being the 5th most powerful spellcaster.


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## Victim (Aug 13, 2011)

> Bardic Music
> - Starting a bardic performance goes from Standard -> Move at 7th, and Move -> Swift at 13th.
> - Maintaining a bardic performance went from Standard action (3.5e) to Free action (Pathfinder core, 1st level).
> - Also, while doing a bardic performance, you can do whatever you want (including cast spells, etc). It's not "concentration" based, it's only stopped when you are pretty much prevented from making a free action.
> ...




You could always fight while doing bardic music.

Personally, I don't think the ability to start bardic music as a swift action in the middle of a fight competes favorably with the ability to start bardic music as a standard action outside of combat and then maintain over a series of encounters (even if you don't maintain it all day...).

Add in the fact that 3.5 supplemental material for bards seems better than UM and APG (especially for Inspire Courage), and I think that the PF bard is weaker than the 3.5 one.


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## tylermalan (Aug 13, 2011)

Holy Bovine said:


> Yeah - uh guys?  how about you take the attitude about how and what I or my friends play into any other thread but this one m'kay?




I don't think they were accusing you of this...


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## Crothian (Aug 13, 2011)

Holy Bovine said:


> Yeah - uh guys?  how about you take the attitude about how and what I or my friends play into any other thread but this one m'kay?




I have no idea how or what you and your friends play.  I do know that in many bard threads people describe the bard as weak because they can't do well as a front line fighter or as a damage causing caster.  We've had threads on the bard for over a decade now and many posters do try to make the bard into something it is not.  Bards are not always the best class to take in the dungeon.  But in my city campaign bards have really shown to be effective.  They can get very subtle with their spell casting and enchantments can be used very effectively on many different NPCs.  They have the skills and versatility to be able to handle many situations.


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## IronWolf (Aug 13, 2011)

Holy Bovine said:
			
		

> Crothian  said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




These were very valid comments as Crothian has further clarified. 

You asked 'Do bards still suck?' and a good portion of that question depends on what your expectations of a bard are. The bard is an easy class to find yourself trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. If you find yourself doing that with your bard then you are apt to be unhappy with them. If you play to their strengths and flexibility then you are not likely to find that bards suck.

It does not appear either poster was accusing you of doing that - merely stating that they see this as a frequent issue with the bard.


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## paradox42 (Aug 13, 2011)

IronWolf said:


> It does not appear either poster was accusing you of doing that - merely stating that they see this as a frequent issue with the bard.



I certainly was. Really, in any campaign featuring any social interaction at all, I'd much rather have a Bard in the party (most times) than a Rogue. Bards as the "party face" are *scary* good. Seriously, in 3.5 one of my players- the one who is _least_ interested in statistics and character optimization- made a Bard who had a Diplomacy modifier in the mid-20s at 8th level. He did this without even trying hard. Now, PF Bards lost some options, but the skill consolidation if anything makes them even _more_ effective this way than the class was in 3.5. As far as I can tell they still rock on toast when it comes to any social interaction at all.

So: need to sell that loot? The Bard will get you the best price. Need to find that one special scroll? The Bard will take you to the seller (and convince him to give you a discount), or let you know unequivocally that there isn't one to be found. Need to talk your way past those guards so as to not make noise and draw lots of other guards onto you? Let the Bard smooth your way. Sure, he can't find traps like a Rogue could, but if you can hire an NPC trapfinder at reasonable rates, why care about that? And how often are you really in a situation where traps are likely, anyway?

I ran two campaigns during most of my time DM'ing 3.X, and for several years one campaign had a Bard (the one I mentioned above) while the other had no real "party face" at all. After a couple of years, the differences between the parties was striking and unmistakeable- the Bard-equipped party had plenty of good equipment, mostly the best possible stuff that they could get, and plenty of cash stashed in the party Portable Hole to get more with when they needed to. The other party had taken a lot _longer_ to acquire a party Portable Hole, had substandard equipment for their level, and were notably resource-poor. And the difference was very clearly due to the second party not having a "face," because shortly after one player retired his old character and made a new one that was designed (among other things) to act as a "face," the second party quickly started to improve their situation. The moral I took: it isn't a spectacular role, but being able to find the right deals (and jobs) and get the best prices in a town or city is *vital* to an average adventuring party. And Bards do it better than anybody else.

So yes, it's campaign-dependent to a degree, but Bards definitely do not suck (and never really did IMO).


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## tylermalan (Aug 13, 2011)

paradox42 said:


> I certainly was.




Oh, well... rage on, then!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 13, 2011)

I don't get people saying bards suck in melee and saying they're for social interaction.  Even core only, a level 20 Bard's Inspire Courage is giving the same attack and damage bonus a level 20 *Barbarian* is getting, except shared with the entire party and with none of the drawbacks.  A core bard 20 using a longspear or a longsword two-handed with power attack is doing +12 damage in 3E; +16 damage in PF.

And he's doing it Blurred, Invisible, Mirror Image'd, hasted, blinking, and/or displaced.  That is when he isn't throwing down dominate person, glitterdust, pyrotechnics, grease, and the like.


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## Voadam (Aug 15, 2011)

The bard in my PF game was pretty disappointed. Modest improvements from 3.5.

Still a great roleplay concept class, still good at skills, still good at out of combat stuff, still a decent buff to the party in combat, and still fairly weak at personally fighting with some modest improvements.

I keep being tempted to house rule them to two options: either full sorcerer spell casting with the bard list instead of bard 6th level limits for the fey sonomancer style (like that enchantment and illusion class from PHII), or full BAB or trailblazer style phantom full base attack bonus for the viking skald or swashbuckler style character.


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## Treantmonklvl20 (Aug 15, 2011)

Systole said:


> Treantmonk's Guide to Pathfinder Bards - Pathfinder_OGC




Wow - what a great resource!  Well thought out and written! 

Bards got TONS of love in Pathfinder.

1) Bardic Music is much better.  It is now a free action to maintain, so a Bard can inspire courage while attacking or casting spells.  By 7th level it's a move action to initiate which means you can inspire and cast a spell right on round 1.

2) Skills are much better.  Bardic Knowledge now covers every knowledge skill, and Versatile Performance adds more yet.  A Bard out skills every other class in the game now, even rogues, by a longshot.

3) Spells.  Spellcasting is the most powerful ability in the game, and now Bard's get higher level spells earlier.  They now get 1st level spells right at level 1 (with more known spells than a sorcerer)

More too...really, just read the rules.  This is all core alone.  APG opens a whole new world on top.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Aug 15, 2011)

Ok, FOR THE LAST TIME...

A Bard has always been able to maintain inspire courage as a free action (at least in 3.5, I honestly don't remember how it was in 3.0)  This is nothing new.  It's not some grand boon PF gave them.  It was there already!  I quoted the rules text exactly to that effect upthread.  Why do people continue to say otherwise?!


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## Starbuck_II (Aug 16, 2011)

StreamOfTheSky said:


> Ok, FOR THE LAST TIME...
> 
> A Bard has always been able to maintain inspire courage as a free action (at least in 3.5, I honestly don't remember how it was in 3.0) This is nothing new. It's not some grand boon PF gave them. It was there already! I quoted the rules text exactly to that effect upthread. Why do people continue to say otherwise?!




I guess because no one in Pathfinder actually read the text in 3.5 and assumed otherwise. So they had to be explicit in the text.


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## Shisumo (Aug 16, 2011)

Because a) it wasn't the case in 3.0, just in 3.5, so it's a legacy rules issue that gets confused, and b) because d6 HD 3.5 bards didn't fight all that much, so their inability to cast spells is what people remember anyway.


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## Kaisoku (Aug 17, 2011)

It was a standard action to maintain concentration on some performances. This has been changed to a free action (I looked at the differences between 3.5e SRD and Pathfdinder PRD, this is one of them). Yeah, this only affected a couple things, but it makes them that much more usable.

The 3.5e Bard was never able to cast spells or use "magic word" items (so no wands to bypass this either) with any performance.
If your DM didn't hand-waive stuff to the way Pathfinder does now, then it's a significant improvement, actually. The main one that people are talking about.

I lumped all those little changes into one big chunk that I feel pushes playing the Bard a much easier/fun thing to do. Each individual bump is nice, but on the whole, it feels less inhibited as a class.


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## Kaisoku (Aug 17, 2011)

Voadam said:


> The bard in my PF game was pretty disappointed.
> 
> ...
> still fairly weak at personally fighting with some modest improvements.




You might want to check out the Archetypes for the Bard. The Arcane Duelist seems like a pretty good fighter:
- Gain arcane strike for free (instead of having to burn a feat)
- Medium Armor casting
- replace (the non-combaty) suggestion performances with adding variable enhancements to weapons (need ghost touch? a +4 weapon for bypassing adamantine DR?)
- Bonus feats, up to and including fighter-only DR bypassing feats
- Arcane bond so you can enhance your weapon without needing the feats, and can cast somatic components while holding it (twohanded weapons included)

Until the Magus came along, it seemed a pretty good "gish" class (fighter-magic user).

With Ultimate Magic out, you could even combine that with Songhealer and get some nice high level healing capability (since they don't replace things from Arcane Duelist, I believe). The "use curative wands at your own caster level" can be significant cost savings at lower levels if you are running the bard in a group without a divine caster (and even with them if you are using wands to top up anyways).


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## MichaelSomething (Aug 20, 2011)

As a bard fan, I feel the need to defend them.  However, I already written a blog post explaining it!  The cool thing about having a blog is that you can pre write your opinion on subjects that come up on a regular basis!


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## Gazra (Aug 27, 2011)

I agree with the sentiment that if you think Bards suck, it's because you want to play something else. 

They are engineered to be a jack-of-all-trades. The downside to their utility is that they don't excel at any one thing. What they can do, that no other class can, is fill a gap at a moment's notice. In smaller groups, however, the gaps are too large for one character to be reasonably expected to fill and their lack of specialty can become a liability.


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## Friend of the Dork (Aug 29, 2011)

*Melee attack while playing an instrument?*

Hey, I was thinking I should ask my question here instead of making a new thread: 

It is stated here that it is only a free action to sustain Inspire Courage, and that you can even cast spells while doing so. However there is nothing in the class description or here about what kind of Perform skills are allowed to use, or what you can do alongside. So here are the questions: 

1.  Can a bard play a mandolin a standard action, then sustain it as a free action while using a shield and sword to fight?

2. Do they still need a hand free to cast spells?

3. Are they required to keep actually singing, chanting, talking, playing or even acting, while sustaining bardic music?

If common sense (rule 0?) says you need hands free to play an instrument, then it seems verbal Perform skills are still the only logical choice for a bard that want to be able to fight.


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## Starbuck_II (Aug 31, 2011)

Friend of the Dork said:


> Hey, I was thinking I should ask my question here instead of making a new thread:
> 
> It is stated here that it is only a free action to sustain Inspire Courage



Yes, every edition this was true.
The only musics in 3.5 that needed maintaining were Suggestion, Fascinate, and Countersong. But this is an often overlooked fact.


> , and that you can even cast spells while doing so.



New thing in Pathfinder, as before it ended the maintaining (but not the 5 rd sustaining).


> 1. Can a bard play a mandolin a standard action, then sustain it as a free action while using a shield and sword to fight?



No, you have to keep playing in Pathfinder each rd. (no one ever uses a Mandolin in D&D for that reason).
Why are you using one? 


> 2. Do they still need a hand free to cast spells?



That never changed.


> 3. Are they required to keep actually singing, chanting, talking, playing or even acting, while sustaining bardic music?



Yes, 3.5 was better in this as you could end it and it was sustained for 5 rds thereafter.


But yes, you have to keep singing /beatboxing/ whistling/ chanting/ talking/ acting for all the rds you use it.

When people talk about warrior bards, they never play mandolins.


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## Kaisoku (Aug 31, 2011)

The APG has the feat Lingering Performance. Makes it last for 2 rounds after you stop maintaining it. Similar effect for the 3.5e Inspire Courage, only it works on any bardic performance.


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## Corwynn Maelstrom (Sep 11, 2011)

All I have to say is: the Archeologist Archetype combined with Vagabond Child trait means no more Rogue needed. The Bard can handle all of the rogue's utility duties (even better actually than a Rogue in some cases) and when built up as an Archer can do very well indeed as ranged damage.

Sure, others can fight better, but can they handle all the rogue duties plus replace the need for the wizard's knowledge skills?

Add in Lingering Performance and all of the sudden the Bard can use Archeologist's Luck pretty much every combat of the day. (Gives you essentially 3x the duration, as all you do is pulse it once every three rounds.)

To be honest for the game I'm working on a bard is going to be the party's leader and will be handling all the rogue duties, has heavy access to knowledge (every single one) and can hold their own in combat.

My estimation, yeah, bards are awesome.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 11, 2011)

Lingering Song is awesome with Archaeologist, and actually makes Extra Performance basically +18 rounds, possibly also worth taking.

If think Archaeologist is the best Bard archetype to prestige class out of, though.  The class level has no bearing at all on rounds/day, and rogue talents are pretty meh (on the other hand, since you actually have use for charisma, dipping Ninja for a ki pool and ki-based ninja tricks is a possibility, rogue talents can be used to buy them), so post level 6, IMHO, the biggest losses are the extra +2 on your luck and the spellcasting.  Unfortunately, PF has pretty terrible prestige classes, so I'm not sure any are worth leaving Bard for, anyway.


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## Corwynn Maelstrom (Sep 11, 2011)

The campaign in question is a Pathfinder group so the bard has the Maestro of the Society trait which is an extra 3 (9) rounds.

Assuming you don't take the liberal "oh, it just says level" view of the archetype, you need the extra levels to power Archeologist's Luck (which is like extra BAB and damage, bringing the bard closer to full BAB higher feat/bonus ability specialists) and their abilities to disable device (which is one of the main reasons to choose this specific archetype) . . .

Besides, really, Bard (Archeologist)/Ninja?  Is this a roleplaying game or a roll-playing game?


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 11, 2011)

Archaeologist is in its very description, a rogue-like Bard.  A ninja is a charismatic rogue, at least in Paizo's minds.  I see no fluff reason why they shouldn't make sense to combine. 

And yes, you need levels to increase the bonus.  But I'm skeptical that an extra +2 past level 5 by sticking around for 12+ more levels is really worth it.  Also, losing the capstone without any replacement is kinda grating.

If a prestige class advanced the casting at full or nearly full rate and gave interesting class features, I think that would be more preferable than a few rogue talents and another +2.  Sadly, there is no such prestige class to meet those rather narrow guidelines.

Thinking up a Divine Hunter Paladin / Archaeologist Bard / Ninja focused on archery and being sexy (massive charisma) right now.  Tentative concept would be Pal 2 / Bard 12 / Ninja 6, though not in such a clean progression order as that.   Kinda requires a common sense houserule that you can take master Tricks with Advanced Rogue Talent to be worth going so far in Archaeologist, though.


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## gamerprinter (Sep 11, 2011)

In our upcoming Way of the Yakuza for Kaidan, we've got a blind bard called a Moso. Although moso are indeed blind, not being able to read scrolls or other types of magic that require readiing, they have an acute sense of hearing, granting them able to tell friend from foe within 20' of them. (Which increases by 5' every 4 levels) and suffer no penalties in melee combat. (If someone successfully makes a stealth check, the moso doen't notice them).

A moso performance skills include: Ward (a protection from evil to listeners), Counterfear (replaces fascinate), Song of life - damages undead, Dismissal (as spell), Soothing performance gets bumped up to 18th.

Interesting build, and better off than a blind oracle.


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## MichaelSomething (Sep 13, 2011)

Corwynn Maelstrom said:


> Besides, really, Bard (Archeologist)/Ninja?  Is this a roleplaying game or a roll-playing game?




But that's the best idea for a character ever!  You're a rocking ninja who goes into tombs for knowledge!


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## StreamOfTheSky (Sep 13, 2011)

Actually, archaeologists have to give up on being a rock star.  No performance abilities at all. 

Not that a Bardinja hasn't been done before

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMcemeW5Byw[/ame]

Yes, she's fighting with a guitar.


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## Starbuck_II (Sep 13, 2011)

I just wanted to say that bardnja was awesome.
Great video.


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## blargney the second (Feb 12, 2012)

I tried the Strength-dominant bard that I learned to love on DDO, and it fits amazingly well with the PF bard.  Basic idea: buff & smash, then patch up the party afterwards.  If your Charisma is reasonable, grab the occasional debilitation spell like _glitterdust_ or _sound burst_, and drop them judiciously.

Right now I'm trying to find some info on how the arcane duelist's bonded weapon works.  Level 5 is coming up quickly, and I had some questions when I finally read up on the details of arcane bond.


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