# Full Flurry of Blows with both hands on one Temple Sword?



## RonYon (Oct 2, 2010)

No response when I posted this here:Pathfinder SRD Messageboards :: View topic - Full Flurry of Blows with both hands on one Temple Sword?
So I thought I might try here. I tried searching, but apparently I dont have the privileges.So anyway...

A Monk "may make one additional attack using any combination of unarmed strikes or attacks with a special monk weapon (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham) as if using the Two-Weapon Fighting feat" 
Since the two weapon fighting feat requires,well,two hands,If one is using a one handed weapon in two hands, can one still make multiple attacks with it? 

I ask because I want to use Temple Sword, in two hands, and make all of my flurry attacks with it. 
If this is possible, I might even up-size the sword and eat the -2 penalty, just to get 2d6 instead of 1d8. 
So, will any of this work, or will I have to settle for one Temple Sword attack, with balance being something else(unarmed kicks, head-butt, siangham thrown via Throw Anything...)?


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## Dandu (Oct 2, 2010)

Can you Flurry while wielding a quarterstaff in two hands, as opposed to using it as a two handed weapon?

I might be a bit rusty, but I suspect you'll have to settle.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 2, 2010)

Pretty sure you can, since flurry isn't realy like TWF at all and Paizo never should have made that comparison.  Flurry says you do str damage on all attacks no matter what, for instance.  That means that while you can two-hand the sword, it won't give you more str to damage, just make it harder to disarm.  I DO think two handing it would still give you the higher Power Attack benefit, though.


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## pawsplay (Oct 2, 2010)

With a quarterstaff, you can use it two-handed, but get only your normal Str bonus to damage. I think StreamOfSky's observation about Power Attack is correct, though.


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## Anguish (Oct 2, 2010)

The point of declaring something a monk weapon is to state that it's compatible with FoB.  The reference to TWF is to give an idea how the mechanism works beyond what's stated in the FoB description.  Since you're allowed to make an extra attack, you're allowed to make an extra attack.  A monk can make a FoB using a single fist if he or she decides to.  Point is that there aren't necessarily two weapons involved despite the reference to TWF.

Yes, this is a powerful choice because you can get 1.5x Str to damage with the temple sword.  On the other hand you don't get your unarmed strike damage progression because you're using a weapon.  No biggie.


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## Shisumo (Oct 2, 2010)

Anguish said:


> Yes, this is a powerful choice because you can get 1.5x Str to damage with the temple sword.



Nope.  Flurry of blows specifically disallows getting bonus damage for using a weapon in two hands.  You do get the Power Attack bonus, but not the Strength bonus.


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## RonYon (Oct 4, 2010)

Well the SRD does say







> A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.




This doesnt bother me-I am ok with just adding the potential for another 4 points to my weapon  damage, by upsizing it from 1 handed to two handed.
What matters most to me is how many attacks I could get with this, since unlike a quarterstaff, a temple sword isnt a double weapon.
StreamOfTheSky and Anguish seem to agree that one could flurry with a two handed weapon,Dandu is in doubt,does anyone  else have a take on this?


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## Shisumo (Oct 4, 2010)

RonYon said:


> Well the SRD does say



Right - you get your full Strength bonus, but not the 1.5x Strength multiplier, even if wielding it in two hands.

You can absolutely flurry with a single two-handed weapon.


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## Walking Dad (Oct 4, 2010)

Can you also flurry with *just one brass knuckle*? I want to gain an enhancement bonus for all to hit without paying an ridicilous amount of gold and using up the neck slot.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 4, 2010)

Walking Dad said:


> Can you also flurry with *just one brass knuckle*? I want to gain an enhancement bonus for all to hit without paying an ridicilous amount of gold and using up the neck slot.




Yes.  Your unarmed strike is the same, no matter what you use to attack for it.  Paizo could have just done the *right thing* (TM) and made amulet of mighty fists affect only one natural weapon and cost the same as weapon enhancements, but the company's made of fail, so they left it as it was in 3E: An outrageously overpriced piece of garbage for a monk, and an incredibly desirable item for a Thri-Kreen.

Just get a single enhanced brass knuckle, describe your attacks however you please, and see if the DM actually gets upset.  If he raises an issue about it, repeat after me: "Ok.  Instead of kneeing him in the junk, I punch him in the junk with my right hand AND IT HAS THE EXACT SAME EFFECT."


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## RonYon (Oct 5, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. 
Concernimg the Strength multiplication, the SRd does say:







> A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands



Thats cool, and it is something I didnt catch, so thank you to those who pointed that out.
I still want to upsize the Teple Sword from Medium to Large,and that would make it go from a one handed to a two handed weapon.
One poster questions if a two handed weapon could execute more than one attack in flurry, while a couple of others confirm, that yes, it can be done.

Does any one else have an opinion on this matter?


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## GlassEye (Oct 5, 2010)

As a DM I would hesitate to allow a monk flurry with an over-sized weapon that pushed it up into the two-handed category.  I have no rules support for this opinion, however, only circumstantial information (monk weapons are all light, one-handed, or double weapons and monks never get 1.5 Str damage when flurrying even with a weapon wielded in two hands).

The question I would ask myself as a player is: Is an average of 2 points of damage more per successful strike worth the extra -2 to hit?


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## RonYon (Oct 6, 2010)

Sorry about the repeated content of my posts-I wasn't seeing them  in the viewing mode I was using.

I had figured on a Trip N' Slash attack routine, but that means being subject to an AoO, and seems to have a low chance of success.

 Still it seems worth while to eat that -2 to hit for an average +2  bonus to damage, especially since I can always Punch or kick for 1d6 instead.Its kind of like a 6 lbs sword of power attack. I would consider getting Improved Trip, but Im, just dipping Monk for the Wis to AC, so I would have to burn a regular Feat, which Im not going to do...
 The fact that Im just dipping the Monk made me look for ways to maximize damage on the flurry, thus the big ass sword.
 I also chose Throw Anything so I could Flurry/Throw weapons that were not Shuriken. Siangham have the best weight to damage dice ratio(1lb to 1d6), out of all the Flurry capable weapons.


I like the Brass knuckle idea, I might use it, but I would use a Gauntlet instead....


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## Otakkun (Oct 6, 2010)

> Paizo could have just done* the right thing *(TM)...




roflol... you had me laughing there.

Anyway, we use the following for monks:

"*Monk Tattoo:* Once he has completed his training, a monk is tattoed by his masters. This tattoo is far from normal as it connected to his inner ki. A monk tattoo can be enchanted just like a normal weapon and it empowers the blows of the monk whenever he uses his flurry of blows ability." 

Not a bad house rule, as it works only for FoB, preventing any misuse via polymorph of other methods.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 6, 2010)

What abuse?  Paizo nerfed ever-loving  out of the polymorph spells.  I don't get how enhancing his entire unarmed strike for 1x cost could be abused...at all.  It's not benefiting natural weapon attacks if he then goes druid, if that's what you meant.  Not to mention druids kinda have a spell called Greater Magic Fang to help with that anyway.

What does limiting it to FoB do other than further make the monk completely and utterly fail at skirmishing attacks (as if only having full BAB while using FoB and the nerfs to tumble didn't do enough in that regard)?


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## ffanxii4ever (Oct 6, 2010)

RonYon said:


> Sorry about the repeated content of my posts-I wasn't seeing them  in the viewing mode I was using.
> 
> I had figured on a Trip N' Slash attack routine, but that means being subject to an AoO, and seems to have a low chance of success.
> 
> ...



First, a Gauntlet doesn't work with FoB.   Brass Knuckles do.    Second, a -2 to hit, aka a -10% to hit, is NEVER WORTH A MERE TWO POINTS OF DAMAGE!!!   Third, if you are blowing a feat to throw Siangham (why, I don't know), sure they might "have the best weight to damage dice ratio", but you can't forget this:  Cost of 1 +1 Siangham = 2303 gp.   Cost of 50 +1 Shuriken = 2310 gp.   Which one gets you more bang for your buck?


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## RonYon (Oct 7, 2010)

I thought the reason that a brass knuckle could be used in flurry is that unarmed attacks could be used in a flurry.I fso , well, a Gauntlet is listed under unarmed attacks in the SRD.
 If that isnt the right rational, I am confused, so please clue me in...



> Second, a -2 to hit, aka a -10% to hit, is NEVER WORTH A MERE TWO POINTS OF DAMAGE!!!



Your emphatic post made me look at this further, and I have to agree.I actually wasnt clued in on the mechanism of Power Attack, which is the trade of I was comparing it to, having never played a  character who used melee as anything other than to horde spell slots rather than use them vs. low level opponents, or as a last ditch defense. Checking up on it, I see that up-sizing a weapon doenst compare, and  that pathfinders Power Attack seems better than WotC 3.5 version.
I still see melee as a last ditch option, but Flurrying with a normal sized temple sword might be the right way to go.

As to this:







> ost of 1 +1 Siangham = 2303 gp. Cost of 50 +1 Shuriken = 2310 gp. Which one gets you more bang for your buck?



I hadnt figured on using Magical or master worked any thing to start with.We are starting at level 3 and either of those choices would mean using up more than 2/3rds of my starting cash.Thus I would use Siangham , as 1d6 seems better than 1d2.I expect he will carry Shuriken as well, as a cheap back up weapon.
I was toying with using the Rough and Ready Trait, and maxing out Profession:Juggler, in order to get a +1 to throwing torches,juggling balls, cleavers, and wine bottles, as they would be tools of the trade.
 If I did do that, I would routinely throw the bottle(filled with Lamp Oil) followed by the torch.But Skill points are tight, so actually juggling these items during combat , while cool, is still cost prohibitive.

Fun fun, fun but still there probably are better choices for a first Level  Monks Bonus Feat.Which of these would you chose?







> Catch Off-Guard, Combat Reflexes, Deflect Arrows, Dodge, Improved Grapple, Scorpion Style, and Throw Anything



Both Dodge and Deflect Arrow seem like more practical  Feat choices, but not as much fun.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 7, 2010)

What regular feat are you taking?  Is the game Paizo only, or 3E stuff allowed?  If Paizo only, is the Advanced Player's Guide open?  Dodge is a solid, if un-fun, choice.  Note it also adds to CMD, because it's a dodge bonus to AC.  Combat Reflexes is a good feat if you have a build to make around it, but I don't know what a monk could really do with it, so probably pass.  Grappling got nerfed from 3E badly, but it can still be handy to screw over certain enemies, so you might want Improved Grapple.

One important note about the Scorpion Style line is that you can always grab a later one with a bonus feat slot and ignore the pre-reqs, so only take the lower ones if you actually want them, not because the Medusa feat is tempting.


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## RonYon (Oct 8, 2010)

We are using anything Pathfinder, I think.
I am hoping we would use Occupations, In which case I will chose Hunter, and get Point-Blank Shot. If we dont use Occupations,I will probably chose point Blank Shot at first level, and Rapid Shot at 3rd, though I have heard Rapid Shot is mathematically inferior to just shooting/throwing  one attack.
Any input on that point would be truly welcome! I mean throwing 3 iron arrows  a Turn sounds cool, but if its really ineffective...it wont be  so much fun.

Anyway, I was thinking of choosing Deadly Aim if I get Point-Blank Shot for "free",so input on that choice would be great.


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## StreamOfTheSky (Oct 8, 2010)

You're doing a ranged monk?  Are you using Zen Archer from the APG?  It gives basically every single archery feat you could ever possibly need (except for Deadly Aim, grab that at level 3 once you meet the BAB requirement) as bonus feats.  Like, I'm just building one now myself and I'm amazed how there's absolutely no feats I really need.


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## RonYon (Oct 11, 2010)

Well Im only dipping one level of monk, plus we are not using anything but the core book, something about testing the system out before we add stuff...boo...
Played our first session.I threw a lot, missed a lot , but did take out the wizard and then some. It was outdoors so the range increment really jacked me up.
I will have to get a crossbow, for initial long range engagement.This time i borrowed one from the Wizard/Cleric, our party leader...
 I  cast Divine Fortune, the Wizard1/Cleric2 cast Bless, the Cleric3 used Summon Monster 2, we all used Guidance before we jumped the enemy.
We all like ranged combat, though the Cleric 3 is the PC best suited for melee. 
I ended up in melee a lot, due to bad maneuvering on my part,so  I had to dodge my companions attacks , when they missed the guy who was up in my face...

I think I will get some splash weapons to use with Rapid Attack.I also need a better long  ranged threat.


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