# [OT]Wrestling... how much is fake?



## Eternalknight (Aug 26, 2002)

I'm just a newbie wrestling fan, but after seeing Summer Slam and the match between HBK and HHH, I was just wondering how much of it is actually scripted?  How is it done?


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## Leopold (Aug 26, 2002)

the damage done is fake. the end results are scripted, what they people say is of their own design. What moves they use in the ring is their own accord, just as long as the right guy wins in the end....


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## DevoutlyApathetic (Aug 26, 2002)

If you mean the attempts to hurt the other guy, pretty much all of it.  If you mean the insane physical stuff they do...that's real for the most part.

While matches are not usually scripted move by move they definitely know how things are going to end before they start.


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## Westwind (Aug 26, 2002)

As DDP once said: Wrestling is fixed, it isn't fake.

It takes an amazing amount of athletic talent and training to do the moves a lot of those guys do, mostly because it would be much easier to maim your opponent than to keep them safe.  Most matches rely on the participants coming up with moves on the fly, although there are often "spots" which involve a pre-arranged string of moves and counter-moves.  You see spots in cruiser-weight matches more often than you do in heavy-weight matches (i.e. Hardyz do a ton of spots, Undertaker probably hasn't done one in his career).  Various wreslters have reps as being "stiff" (no, not that!) which means they are not very good at protecting their opponent during the risky moves.  Ahmed Johnson, a wreslter from many years ago, is a good example of this.  Conversly, Bret Hart was in the ring for years and never hurt an opponent.

The blood you see, incidently, is real.  Wrestlers often "blade," a process that involves cutting their forehead in such a way that ensure a lot of blood flows without much risk of serious injury (sometimes the wrestler blades himself, sometimes the ref does it, cameramen are good at hiding the act so when you see the camera train on X and when they get back to Y, his face is covered in blood, you know what happened).


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

Westwind said:
			
		

> *
> The blood you see, incidently, is real.  Wrestlers often "blade," a process that involves cutting their forehead in such a way that ensure a lot of blood flows without much risk of serious injury (sometimes the wrestler blades himself, sometimes the ref does it, cameramen are good at hiding the act so when you see the camera train on X and when they get back to Y, his face is covered in blood, you know what happened). *




According to Foley's first book- another way to draw blood is to hit a part of the forehead a certain way. He has a story about how a guy wasn't doing it right, but kept trying. Ouch.

I recall a special I saw on wrestling once where they showed how they have massage people and chiropacters back stage- the wrestlers usually go right to them after a match.

A lot of wrestlers have suffered serious injuries in the course of wrestling, just over the last few of years:

Austin broke his neck.
Triple H ripped a muscle off of his leg (and still finished a match).
Eddie Guerero(spelling is off) dislocated his elbow his first night on WWF
Droz broke his neck and is quadropalegic.
The worst was the death of Owen Hart, but his death was from an f'n stupid stunt- not a wrestling match.

FD


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## Eternalknight (Aug 26, 2002)

So, for instance, the Hogan thing a few weeks ago with Brock Lesner was completely fake?  If that is the case, how come he didn't come out to Australia as part of the global warning tour?  Money?  Something else?


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> *So, for instance, the Hogan thing a few weeks ago with Brock Lesner was completely fake?  If that is the case, how come he didn't come out to Australia as part of the global warning tour?  Money?  Something else? *




I am not sure which "he" you are referring to- but overseas travel, from what I have read, is tough on wrestlers. It is hard enough to be away from your families more then half of every week, but such travel precludes seeing their families for some time.

Unless things have changed since Foley's time, the wrestlers pay for all their travel and boarding. I am sure they get paid more on a big trip like that, but it would be after the case- so they would have to shill out for an expensive (and long) flight down there. 

Foley has a lot of stories of sharing motel rooms and rental cars with other wrestlers. The best being what him and Austin did to DDP when they were all in WCW.

I would really suggest reading Mick Foley's book if you are wanting to get an inside view of the industry.

Have A Nice Day! 

Plus, you get to read about the frightening barbwired matchs, C4 matchs, and flaming chair matchs that don't happen in WWE. 

FD


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## Westwind (Aug 26, 2002)

All injuries that announcers play up (My God!  How much more can one man take?!) and that don't cause paramedics (who don't get beaten up and are normal sized) to come running to the ring RIGHT AWAY are fake and part of the storyline.  Hogan's no-show in Oz is the subject of a lot of speculation, as he has a not-so-stellar repuation amongst "smart marks" for being generally selfish, terrible in-ring, and poison in the locker room (no Nash, but who is?).  The official wwe reason was long-term injuries to Hogan's back made the plane ride impossible for him.  I'm not really buying that, but I'm a cynic when it comes to Hogan, Nash, etc.  Brock v. Hogan was an effort to make Brock into a believable/creidible heel so he could beat Rock at Summerslam (woot, my picks came through for me in the pool!).  Alas, Rock is becoming a transition champ.  Who will be the next face to compete for the belts?  I was thinking Triple  H, but his loss buries him for a bit.  People are saying Goldberg might be signing with the wwe in the future, but that's not a sure thing and I'm sure the writers have something already planned.

Note: There are a few exceptions to the injury rule above.  JR was (rightly) going nuts during Mankind vs. Taker in their first Hell in a Cell match and I can assure you, those were some serious injuries.  But, more often than not, they'll fake an injury to cover for a real unjury and give the guy some time to recover.  For example, Benoit was on the shelf for a long time with a legit neck injury, but it was a lingering effect and not the result of his match with Jericho, as wwe would have you belive.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

Westwind said:
			
		

> *Brock v. Hogan was an effort to make Brock into a believable/creidible heel so he could beat Rock at Summerslam (woot, my picks came through for me in the pool!).   *




That is the only reason it seems hogan is there- to push other wrestlers; either by teaming with them or making them look good in a match.

I use to think the same thing about Hogan that you mentioned, but considering the defeats he has been willing to make- I am keeping an open mind on who he is today.

FD


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## Ferret (Aug 26, 2002)

Hogan has become a jobber*?


*Someone who comes to the match and just loses, never someone who is in the WWE just "Newcommers"


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## Grazzt (Aug 26, 2002)

Hogan didnt make the Austrailian tour because he is in a money dispute with McMahon. Apparently he wants more and McMahon doesnt think he deserves it. Jim Ross cited Hogan's health (saying something like his back or whatever was sore and he couldnt fly) as the reason he didnt make it.

Check the various wrestling sites around the net (not the "mark" sites) like Pro Wrestling Between the Sheets (www.pwbts.com) or The Torch (www.pwtorch.com)


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## RyanL (Aug 26, 2002)

Referring specifically to last night's match, everything you saw on TV was fake.  Shawn Michaels really does have a broken back, however.

-Ryan


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## Grazzt (Aug 26, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> A lot of wrestlers have suffered serious injuries in the course of wrestling, just over the last few of years:
> 
> ...




Hyabusa (Japanese wrestler in FMW) was paralyzed Oct 22, 2001 when he slipped from the top ropes doing a 450 phoenix splash. He landed on top of his head and broke his neck.

Check Foley's book. He got injured as well. Part of his ear was ripped off in a match when he got his head tangled in the ropes.

New Jack and Vic Grimes (when they were both in ECW [my fave promotion when it was around]) both suffered injuries when they leapt from the balcony 25 feet into three tables. New Jack severed the nerves in his left eye.

Vic Grimes (again) suffered serious injuries when he took a stiff bump in XPW. He was  thrown off a scaffold 35 feet into the ring through three tables stacked on top of each other.

Yakushi (I think) was injured in an FMW death match when his opponent set the entire ring on fire and then powerbombed him into it. He suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on his back. The ref in the match was likewise injured as he was near the fire and it "splattered" on him when Yakushi was powerbombed.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

RyanL said:
			
		

> *Referring specifically to last night's match, everything you saw on TV was fake.  Shawn Michaels really does have a broken back, however.
> 
> -Ryan *




From what I understand, Michaels just wanted one more chance in the ring so his son could see him at a show.

FD


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## Grazzt (Aug 26, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> According to Foley's first book- another way to draw blood is to hit a part of the forehead a certain way. He has a story about how a guy wasn't doing it right, but kept trying. Ouch.
> 
> FD *




Ya ever see the ECW match where New Jack wrestled a newcomer calling himself Mass Transit? Transit was supposedly an 18-19 year old kid who wrestled indepently. Axl Rotten was injured and so ECW let Transit sub in his place and wrestle New Jack. 

During the match Transit asked New Jack to blade him because he had never done it. New Jack obliged but hit an artery and Transit was bleeding profusely when it was done. If you check out the video footage of the incident you can see the blood spurting from his head every time his heart beats.

Now- the screwed up part.....Transit had a fake ID, no wrestling knowledge really, and was only 17 years old. He lied to the ECW guys so he could wrestle. When he got hurt he turned around and tried to sue them. He lost in court when the footage was shown to the jury.


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## Wolfen Priest (Aug 26, 2002)

DevoutlyApathetic said:
			
		

> *While matches are not usually scripted move by move they definitely know how things are going to end before they start. *




Oh, so you're saying they just go out there and "wing it?"  No way, every match is scripted right down to the facial expressions, if you ask me.


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## Grazzt (Aug 26, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> From what I understand, Michaels just wanted one more chance in the ring so his son could see him at a show.
> 
> FD *




Yeppers- I heard something like that. Michaels back is injured but it isnt broken. I believe his career is more or less over.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

Wolfen Priest said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh, so you're saying they just go out there and "wing it?"  No way, every match is scripted right down to the facial expressions, if you ask me. *




Go read some biographies- they plan some major moments/moves, but most of it is momentum and pacing that decides the wrestlers actions.

Back in the day- you could tell when one guy did not want to job for another, and a real fight broke out. But that has not happened in a very long time.

FD


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

Grazzt said:
			
		

> *
> Ya ever see the ECW match where New Jack wrestled a newcomer calling himself Mass Transit? *




Real violence turns my stomach- and ECW was too much for me. 

WWE is the perfect level of cartoony-violence for me- though when they hit women, the channel gets turned.

FD


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## jmucchiello (Aug 26, 2002)

*Warning: SPOILERS for SUMMERSLAM (sorta)*

Hogan didn't go to Australia because he and Vince disagreed over whether or not it was a special event. Vince said it was just another house show; Hogan said you don't fly 16 hours to a house show. Hogan also has very bad knees. A 16 hour flight would have had him laid up for a day or two after each flight. It is hard to call Hogan just another jobber when you consider how over he is with the fans. He's got some time off now because Vince is annoyed with him (and because it really helped build Brock Lesner). He'll be back.

Fake: All wrestling matches have a planned ending: who wins and usually how it happens. Sometimes the wrestlers just wing it, waiting until the referee tells them it's time to finish the match. Some wrestlers prefer to script the match down to each chop to the chest. Others only like to work out complicated stuff. Angle ducking Mysterio's first 619 at Summerslam was probably just as planned as the one he took to the face later in the match.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

*Re: Warning: SPOILERS for SUMMERSLAM (sorta)*



			
				jmucchiello said:
			
		

> *Angle ducking Mysterio's first 619 at Summerslam was probably just as planned as the one he took to the face later in the match. *




Mysterio is an impressive wrestler- I hope they don't screw him up like WCW did to most of their wrestlers.

Argh, why did they bring that dork Bischoff to WWE? The guy is horrible. I hope he has absolutely no creative control.

FD


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## bolen (Aug 26, 2002)

A&E had an interesting show on this.  The ref is kind of the stage manager.  He tells the wrestlers when to rap it up.  The show implied that they had a general idea of what was going to happen but the action was not completely staged (all the hits and so forth are worked out on the fly).


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## Westwind (Aug 26, 2002)

If you get a good camera angle on wrestlers when they are in "rest holds" you can see their lips moving.  What they are doing is discussing the next spot (unless you're Buff Bagwell, in which case your entire in-ring package consists of rest holds).  Some wrestlers have great chemistry so they don't need to do this as often as others and other wrestlers have repuations for being able to make anyone look good (Angle and Benoit, for example).


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## Requiem (Aug 26, 2002)

> WWE is the perfect level of cartoony-violence for me- though when they hit women, the channel gets turned - Furn-Darkside





Hi,

I'm very interested in your point of view there..this has been rasied by many as woman wrestlers etc have increasingly become a bigger feature on wwe over the past couple of years perhaps you  could provide me with some insight. 

Why do you feel the cartoony violence becomes unacceptable when it involves a woman? Do you feel the same about tv series like Buffy etc which involve women often get beaten up by men?

To my mind its all just "acting" and I dont draw any distiction between them.

Requiem


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

Requiem said:
			
		

> *
> Why do you feel the cartoony violence becomes unacceptable when it involves a woman? *




I don't care for any displays of violence against women- cartoony or realistic.



> Do you feel the same about tv series like Buffy etc which involve women often get beaten up by men?




I think Buffy is a stupid show, but I get your point. 

Let me use Xena for example- the violence against women in that show is non-existant. You can tell no one is getting hurt. 

Violence against a woman in a more dramatic show/movie makes me uncomfortable, but if it fits the mood of show- then it does not bother me enough to turn it off. It is part of the story. (Though I could tell a self-humiliating anecdote about Mary Shelly's Frankenstein.)

However,  I watch wrestling to see silly storylines and great wrestlers like Benoit and Malinko.  Watching women getting really hurt, even in a "safe" environment is not my cup of tea. 

Personally, I think there are too many women in WWE outside of the matchs as well. If I wanted to watch porn or a strip show, then I would go do that- I watch wrestling for wrestling.



> To my mind its all just "acting" and I dont draw any distiction between them.




I have seen and been in too much violence in my life to be able to draw that distinction easily.

Wrestling at its best (holds, moves, counters, silly story lines) is a live action cartoon/display of skills. 

FD


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## Requiem (Aug 26, 2002)

Hi,

Thankyou for the insight. 

However I do believe some of the woman wrestlers are as talented (if not more so) than the men and therefore matches involving woman are, imho, as viable entertainment (for the reasons stated by yourself) as those involving men.

However I think the WWE's treatment of the woman of wrestling has done severe damage to the the whole womans wrestling movement and has reduced it to a mere T&A sideshow.

Requiem


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## Black Omega (Aug 26, 2002)

I'd agree women wrestlers can be just as talented but then I watch the Japanese women wrestlers and they are amazing.  The WWE product is all T&A, as they basically admit.

A thing I saw interesting, I think it was on Wrestling Observer, was how even with steroids, the massively juscles wrestlers tend to have a longer career than the smaller guys doing the dangerous bumps.  Which might explain Brock's push.  By himself he seems like an almost total zero.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Aug 26, 2002)

I was caught a cable channel while in a nowhere hotel room showing "minor league" wrestling.

It was very enlightening about the level of skill the top level people have.  Since the up and coming amateurs perform let me really see some of the tricks they used; they were not slick enough yet to get the timing right to hide techniques.

Things I noticed:
--a stomp on the mat timed to make the "hit" sound impressive as the attacker lunges forward
--punches that don't land
--arm swings and elbow swing that appear to strike the head (because the head is thrown back in response) but connect with the striker's own hand/forearm or victim's feebly raised arm/elbow to make a good amount of noise
--huge windups that look impressive but a mostly to help the timing, i.e. so the victim knows when to throw himself back

After seeing these guys I had a new appreciation for the top pros.  It takes a lot of skill, practice, hard work to make a variety of moves look good.  And it is not just your punches require practice, but being on the receiving end does, too.

I am sure it is a tough business to be in.  The training is hard work.  Blows do land, rarely or never at full force, but I am sure it is painful.  Jumping onto a bouncy, padded, spring floor can still injure you badly.  Accidents happen.


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## Squire James (Aug 26, 2002)

I remember watching a supposedly rare match between two "good guy" teams on TV once (lordy, 15-20 years ago!).  They shook hands a stupid number of times during the match, helped each other up, etc.  Interestingly enough, on one of those "jumping to avoid opponent's rush" moves, one guy didn't jump quite high enough.  I think the "accidental head to the groin" really was an accidental head to the groin.  Even the "bad guy announcer" was wincing over that one!

Aside from that, I agree the sport is mostly "scripted outcomes" and "mostly unscripted but choregraphed moves".


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## Grazzt (Aug 26, 2002)

Ridley's Cohort said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Things I noticed:
> --a stomp on the mat timed to make the "hit" sound impressive as the attacker lunges forward
> ...




Yeppers- and ring mics (usually 3-5 microphones placed under the ring itself) add to the "thud" made when someone "connects" or hits the mat.

Basically- to sum it up- wrestling is a male-oriented soap opera.


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## Phowett (Aug 26, 2002)

Commercial wrestling is pretty much fake.  The stunts are real, but they never actually (purposely) hurt the other person in the ring. In fact, most of the time they don't even touch the other person if you look really hard.

Commercial wrestling is like a soap opera nowadays.


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## Andrew D. Gable (Aug 26, 2002)

*Re: Re: Warning: SPOILERS for SUMMERSLAM (sorta)*



			
				Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *Mysterio is an impressive wrestler- I hope they don't screw him up like WCW did to most of their wrestlers.*




I'm with you on that one.  I don't know much about wrestling, but Mysterio impresses me.  He's got real skill, that one, I think.


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## eXodus (Aug 26, 2002)

it is all fake, except for the spandex.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Aug 26, 2002)

Phowett said:
			
		

> *Commercial wrestling is pretty much fake.  The stunts are real, but they never actually (purposely) hurt the other person in the ring. In fact, most of the time they don't even touch the other person if you look really hard.
> 
> Commercial wrestling is like a soap opera nowadays. *




I hope you don't mean "Compared to the good old days when it was real!"

It has always been a scripted exhibition of skills. Calling it fake is like storming out of a Schwartenegger film crying "fake."


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## Drew (Aug 26, 2002)

What a minute! Wrestling is FAKE? What the hell! I can't believe that...oh...I get it! You guys are just kidding. Whew! Next thing you're going to tell me is that there's no such thing as Santa Claus.

By the way, has everyone heard of Kayfabe, the inside wreslting Roleplaying Game? Its all about running a wrestling federation from the "behind the scenes" perspective. The match outcomes don't really matter, but backstage politics, injury, heat, etc all comes into play. Pretty cool game. Check it out at http://www.angelfire.com/games3/errantknight/kayfabe/


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

There is a d20 wrestling rpg coming out:

http://www.enworld.org/d20reviews.asp?sub=yes&where=publist&which=Fantages+Studios

I am looking forward to seeing what they come up with.

FD


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## Chimera (Aug 26, 2002)

The WWF (Get the E out) shied away from women/men matches until Joanie Lauer aka Chyna started asking to be put in matches with men.  Her whole gig was that she was a Woman who could handle herself in the ring against the Men.  I would have a severe problem with anyone griping about "Violence against Women" when the Woman is fighting for the right to be considered the equal of the Men in a Violent form of entertainment.

For better or worse, the women in WWE are either requesting, or being asked to work more mixed matches.  They do tend to do a good job of keeping the smaller women from being attacked by these great big men.  Except when the story lines call for it, in which case the entire point is to gain Heat (Read: Boos) for the Heel (Read: Villain, or Bad Guy).

In those cases, Yes, I am somewhat bothered by the unnecessary violence towards tiny women.  Even in a Wrestling program.  But it's part of the business and always has been.

As a 40-year old man with a bad back and bad knees, I can say that I would not consider a 16 hour flight to Australia, then another one back, within a week where you still have to do American shows and TV tapings, to be a _freaking House Show!_  Hogan has done pretty much everything asked of him, including jobbing to Lesner when Austin refused.  This is a little much to be asking, IMHO.  (And this from a guy who got into watching wrestling because of Hogan (early 80's), but grew to despise him.)


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## Black Omega (Aug 26, 2002)

Vyvyan Basterd said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I hope you don't mean "Compared to the good old days when it was real!"
> 
> It has always been a scripted exhibition of skills. Calling it fake is like storming out of a Schwartenegger film crying "fake." *



It's possible it was real wrestling back in the 1800's.  Because deception is so ingrained into pro wrestling it's very hard to tell.  By Lou Thasz's own admission wrestling was mostly fake by the time he was watching it in the 1920's, with the rare exception of real matches to settle a grudge.  The real matches weren't always advertised, since they were pretty boring.

In the Good Old Days wrestling was less soap opera and spent more time trying to maintain the aura of it being a real competition.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 26, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> It's possible it was real wrestling back in the 1800's.  *




You know- for a while I use to really pine to see a real competition between fighters and fighting styles.

Then I saw toughman contests and the UFC- and I realized how boring real fighting is to watch. 

I drift to and from professional wrestling. I really like watching some people: HHH, Benoit, and Malinko.  It is the watching the many other wrestlers that drives me away.

FD


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## Glyfair (Aug 26, 2002)

Phowett said:
			
		

> *Commercial wrestling is pretty much fake.  The stunts are real, but they never actually (purposely) hurt the other person in the ring. In fact, most of the time they don't even touch the other person if you look really hard.
> 
> Commercial wrestling is like a soap opera nowadays. *




That depends on what you mean by actually hurting the other person.  Actually, much of what you see in wrestling does hurt the other person. Just not to the extent they want you to think.

 To take an extreme example, look at the chair shots you see.  You know how they do that?  They hit the other person with the chair.  Yes, there are ways to hit someone so that it isn't horrible (hitting across the back, for example).  However, don't think getting hit with the chair doesn't hurt.

Glyfair of Glamis


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## Klaatu B. Nikto (Aug 27, 2002)

Chimera said:
			
		

> *Hogan has done pretty much everything asked of him, including jobbing to Lesner when Austin refused.  This is a little much to be asking, IMHO.  *




Is this a more specific reason Austin walked? I remember Jim Ross saying he walked because he didn't like where his character was going. It's not like his then current story line couldn't be canned or rewritten.

Heck, the DM's I've had will do the same.

Anyways, I'd rather they push Rey Mysterio (or other cruiserweights) instead of Brock. *shrug* I ain't too impressed with the hulking slabs o' muscle since they're all basically the same tho Bam Bam Bigelow was rather agile for his size.


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## Holy Bovine (Aug 27, 2002)

Wolfen Priest said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh, so you're saying they just go out there and "wing it?"  No way, every match is scripted right down to the facial expressions, if you ask me. *




Not true - and pretty impossible to manage as well.  The announcers and refs are linked by ear plug mics and basically dictate the matches flow by how the crowd is reacting (I saw this on the wrestling documentary Beyond the Mat (I think - it may have been a different show)).  They will tell the refs to have the wrestlers to pick up the action or slow it down a bit with some clutch n' grab moves.  The winner is predetermined but what moves they do to get to that conclusion are left up to the wrestlers for the most part (the refs & announcers rarely tell them what moves to do but the wrestlers to talk to each other in the ring and what moves they are going to do next)


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## Ristamar (Aug 27, 2002)

The Sacred Cow is correct, for the most part.  There are a few key points in matches that are scripted, though the material used between these _spots_ is improvised in the ring.  For this reason many wrestlers consider matches a sort of art form, combining a well-executed, believable, exciting moves with the an illusionary in-ring psychology and proper pacing.  In fact, most wrestlers don't refer to it as wrestling for the fans, but instead, _performing_ for the fans.


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## Ashtal (Aug 27, 2002)

Media stuff.  *boing*


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## Black Omega (Aug 27, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> You know- for a while I use to really pine to see a real competition between fighters and fighting styles.
> 
> ...




It really depends on the fighters.  The toughman contests suffer from the fact most people in them aren't in great shape or all that skilled.

The trouble MMA (Mixed Martial Arts) fight like the UFC and PRIDE have had at times is that there are so many ways to lose fighters have become more careful and aware.  In boxing you only have to worry about punches.  In MMA it's punches, elbows, knees, kicks anywhere from your legs to face, take downs and submissions. I've seen some excellent fights, but to often a tight rank match will turn dull as two highly skilled fighters circle each other.

From Lou Thesz's book, this is why wrestling became worked.  It started in the carnivals and usually the two house wrestlers were not all that evenly matched and real matches would be boring anyway.  So they would work together to make the match more competative and exciting, which meant more money.


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## Black Omega (Aug 27, 2002)

Ristamar said:
			
		

> *The Sacred Cow is correct, for the most part.  There are a few key points in matches that are scripted, though the material used between these spots is improvised in the ring.  For this reason many wrestlers consider matches a sort of art form, combining a well-executed, believable, exciting moves with the an illusionary in-ring psychology and proper pacing.  In fact, most wrestlers don't refer to it as wrestling for the fans, but instead, performing for the fans. *




I nbelieve it was Dave Meltzer who commented that there are three levels of working matches.  

1.  The Hulk Hogan, every move is scripted ahead of time style.  Hogan-Ultimate Warrior from years ago at Wrestlemania was practiced move for move for a week before the actual match.  This is fairly uncommon.

2.  The most common is a prescripted ending and spots with the actual pacing and stuff worked out in the ring.  Once you know what you are looking for, it's fairly easy to spot the times when wrestlers are communicating.  Shawn Michaels was notorious at times for trying to make people look bad by making the move calling very obvious.

3.  Totally freeform performance.  Very rare and it takes a good wrestler to pull it off.  A famous Great Muta-Brad Armstrong match from years ago was actually a fill in match where the two men were told "We need a match fast.  Muta wins with a moonsault in ten minutes.  Get to it."  and five minutes later they were in the ring, no time to even work out spots.


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## Ranger REG (Aug 27, 2002)

Eternalknight said:
			
		

> *
> I'm just a newbie wrestling fan, but after seeing Summer Slam and the match between HBK and HHH, I was just wondering how much of it is actually scripted?  How is it done? *



It would be just like any choreagraphed stunt performance in a movie or tv show, only they have to do it live. So they scripted out the moves they'll make to one another beforehand, determining who gets the upper hand in order to get the audience reactions at the right moment.

But while they practice safety first, what they do is risky, and it takes a great toll on the wrestler's fit bodies.

After all, it is *Wrestling Entertainment.*


----------



## drowdude (Aug 27, 2002)

Heh, I was sooooo glad when I heard Scott Hall was out of the WWF..E...whatever... towards the end you could actually hear and see him calling the moves as he wrestled... totally ruined the suspension of disbelief for me


----------



## Black Omega (Aug 27, 2002)

drowdude said:
			
		

> *Heh, I was sooooo glad when I heard Scott Hall was out of the WWF..E...whatever... towards the end you could actually hear and see him calling the moves as he wrestled... totally ruined the suspension of disbelief for me  *



Scott Hall has had issues with drug and alcohol abuse for some time, sadly.  Not as bad as Jake 'the Snake' Roberts, but still pretty bad.


----------



## Phowett (Aug 27, 2002)

*sigh*...


----------



## Zub (Aug 28, 2002)

Wolfen Priest said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Oh, so you're saying they just go out there and "wing it?"  No way, every match is scripted right down to the facial expressions, if you ask me. *




You'd be wrong.  Some matches last for over 20 minutes.  Wrestlers will discuss the general flow of the match before hand, and perhaps even discuss specific moves, but much of the match is just a give and take between the wrestlers.  They talk to each other the whole match, setting up moves.

WWE Confidential has had a good story where they interviewed RVD and Eddie Guerrero.  They talked about how they planned the match before hand and some of the things they would do.

In general, I've been pleased with the openness WWE has now.  They freely admit that wrestling is just entertainment and that shows and storylines are fixed.  I'm actually more interested in the behind-the-scens stuff anyways.  I like to see the wrestlers out of character.  They are very interesting people.


----------



## Zub (Aug 28, 2002)

Phowett said:
			
		

> *Commercial wrestling is pretty much fake.  The stunts are real, but they never actually (purposely) hurt the other person in the ring. In fact, most of the time they don't even touch the other person if you look really hard.
> 
> Commercial wrestling is like a soap opera nowadays. *




No, some of the wrestlers hit very hard.  On Toug Enough 2, a british wrestle visited the kids who were training.  I forget his name, but one thing he said was "I hit very hard but in safe places".  He then gave a kid a massive chop to the chest.  He said, if you can't take that, they your in the wrong business.

I think what happens is you can sell the other wrestler's move, i.e. He hits you softly, but you can convinceingly make it look like you got crap kicked out of you, then he will continue that way, but if you can't sell the move, he'll Tag you for real.  In Tough Enough 1, Triple H hit one of the kids relatively softly, and when the kids didn't react  appropriately, he said, "If you did that in the ring, I'd tag you for real."


----------



## Zub (Aug 28, 2002)

*HEre's a question: Was the scew job planeed or not?*

Was Brett HArt really screwed by Mcmahon or was it all planned?

I tend to think McMahon doublecrossed him.


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Aug 28, 2002)

*Re: HEre's a question: Was the scew job planeed or not?*



			
				Zub said:
			
		

> *Was Brett HArt really screwed by Mcmahon or was it all planned?
> *




Well, he was screwed in the sense that he thought the match was supposed to end one way(a double dq), but HBK and McMahon over ruled that secretly and Brett lost the match.

Brett Hart was leaving the company that night- and he currently held the belt. McMahon did not want him leaving with the belt, and Hart did not want to lose it in Canada.

Hart offered to drop it the next night on Raw, but it is not like he had any contractual obligation to do so.

I can understand both sides, but he punched McMahon after the match- so, I guess he got even.

FD


----------



## Black Omega (Aug 28, 2002)

Zub said:
			
		

> *No, some of the wrestlers hit very hard.  On Toug Enough 2, a british wrestle visited the kids who were training.  I forget his name, but one thing he said was "I hit very hard but in safe places".  He then gave a kid a massive chop to the chest.  He said, if you can't take that, they your in the wrong business.*



  I don't watch Tough Enough, but I'd feel pretty safe guessing that was Steve (William) Regal.  He's notorious for things like that.  He's a real tough guy.

*



			I think what happens is you can sell the other wrestler's move, i.e. He hits you softly, but you can convinceingly make it look like you got crap kicked out of you, then he will continue that way, but if you can't sell the move, he'll Tag you for real.  In Tough Enough 1, Triple H hit one of the kids relatively softly, and when the kids didn't react  appropriately, he said, "If you did that in the ring, I'd tag you for real."
		
Click to expand...


*Back in the 80's when the Road Warriors were just starting this came up.  They were massively muscled guys who got a big aura from no selling their opponants moves, sometimes way too much.  In a match against Jerry Blackwell and Larry 'The Axe' Hennig they were doing that and ended up getting slapped around pretty good as a lesson.  It's rare, but it does happen.


----------



## Tharkun (Aug 30, 2002)

Why watch it if it's already prescripted?  Sounds like a waste of airtime to me.


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## Furn_Darkside (Aug 30, 2002)

Tharkun said:
			
		

> *Why watch it if it's already prescripted?  Sounds like a waste of airtime to me. *




Why watch most television shows? Most are prescripted.

FD


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## Ranger REG (Aug 30, 2002)

Tharkun said:
			
		

> *
> Why watch it if it's already prescripted?  Sounds like a waste of airtime to me. *



Why? Entertainment. Pure entertainment. It's like watching stunt scenes after stunt scenes.


----------



## Dahak (Aug 31, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> Back in the 80's when the Road Warriors were just starting this came up.  They were massively muscled guys who got a big aura from no selling their opponants moves, sometimes way too much.  In a match against Jerry Blackwell and Larry 'The Axe' Hennig they were doing that and ended up getting slapped around pretty good as a lesson.  It's rare, but it does happen. *




Ah, the AWA... beautiful memories. 

The Road Warriors have been in a few matches where miscommunication led to both parties ceasing to cooperate.  Lex Luger is another one with a similar history.

More recently, Perry Saturn tossed around Mike Bell like a sack of manure after Bell flubbed a spot, at a WWF Jakked (now WWE Velocity) taping. Among Saturn's punishment was having to take some very stiff moves from Bradshaw and Ron Simmons during the WCW mole hunt angle.


----------



## Tharkun (Sep 1, 2002)

Actually, I pretty much *don't* watch the TV...why?  Because it's dull, except for some things, though the majority of TV shows are not so great.  I've played many computer games that are more fun than several TV shows 



			
				Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Why watch most television shows? Most are prescripted.
> 
> FD *


----------



## Black Omega (Sep 1, 2002)

Dahak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Ah, the AWA... beautiful memories.
> 
> The Road Warriors have been in a few matches where miscommunication led to both parties ceasing to cooperate.  Lex Luger is another one with a similar history.*



Heh.  I have a tape of the match where Lex Lugar was leaving Florida and in the middle of a Steel Cage match Bruiser Brody quit cooperating with Lex.  It's not a real shoot, but you can tell he's not working with Lex anymore and Lex is getting scared.

*



			More recently, Perry Saturn tossed around Mike Bell like a sack of manure after Bell flubbed a spot, at a WWF Jakked (now WWE Velocity) taping. Among Saturn's punishment was having to take some very stiff moves from Bradshaw and Ron Simmons during the WCW mole hunt angle.
		
Click to expand...


*And that would hurt.  Those two can really put some sting into their moves.  A slightly different angle that was interesting at the time was Regal exposing Goldberg during a Nitro match.  It wasn't really a shoot, but there were times he put moves on Goldberg and simply didn't let Goldberg escape properly.


----------



## JacktheRabbit (Sep 3, 2002)

Perry Saturn got off easy. The way he knocked Bell out of the ring resulted in Bell landing very badly on his head. He could have easily broke his neck or done other permanent damage. 

Getting three powerbombs on the flat of his back by the APA are small punishment in comparison.




			
				Dahak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> More recently, Perry Saturn tossed around Mike Bell like a sack of manure after Bell flubbed a spot, at a WWF Jakked (now WWE Velocity) taping. Among Saturn's punishment was having to take some very stiff moves from Bradshaw and Ron Simmons during the WCW mole hunt angle. *


----------



## Dahak (Sep 3, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> Heh.  I have a tape of the match where Lex Lugar was leaving Florida and in the middle of a Steel Cage match Bruiser Brody quit cooperating with Lex.  It's not a real shoot, but you can tell he's not working with Lex anymore and Lex is getting scared.
> 
> *




Brody definitely had a habit of screwing with people. I can see why Larry would get legit scared.

On a similar note, one of the dirtsheet sites had a rhetorical question up concerning last night's awarding of the WCW World Title to Triple H. Something along the lines of "Why didn't Eric Biscoff just hire a shooter to take the belt off of Brock Lesnar like Sam Muchnik did in '63?"   Buddy Rogers definitely had reason to fear Thesz's ability tho'. With the sole exception of Kurt Angle, I doubt anyone employed in that company will be stretching Lesnar anytime soon.


----------



## Black Omega (Sep 3, 2002)

Dahak said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Brody definitely had a habit of screwing with people. I can see why Larry would get legit scared.*



Agreed.  Brody was also notorious for signing in with a territory, being built into the top heel, then suddenly moving on before the other guy got revenge. 

*



			On a similar note, one of the dirtsheet sites had a rhetorical question up concerning last night's awarding of the WCW World Title to Triple H. Something along the lines of "Why didn't Eric Biscoff just hire a shooter to take the belt off of Brock Lesnar like Sam Muchnik did in '63?"   Buddy Rogers definitely had reason to fear Thesz's ability tho'. With the sole exception of Kurt Angle, I doubt anyone employed in that company will be stretching Lesnar anytime soon.
		
Click to expand...


*I'd pay good money to see Kevin Nash try.  He and Sid Vicious top the 'all mouth' team in wrestling.  Ken Shamrock probably could, if he's kept in sharp.  and could avoid injury...that loss to Fujita at Pride was pretty sad.  Lou Thesz was in a class of his own in his younger days.

Another wrestler with a rep for shooting was Akira Maeda.  I doubt we'll ever know the real details behind that match with Andre the Giant.


----------



## Villano (Sep 4, 2002)

Black Omega said:
			
		

> *
> Agreed.  Brody was also notorious for signing in with a territory, being built into the top heel, then suddenly moving on before the other guy got revenge.
> 
> 
> ...



* 


Ah, good ole Kevin Nash.  Since signing on with WWE for $700,000 a year he's only wrestled in 2 televised matches.

Well, he actually wrestled in 4, but I don't count the other 2 because he injured himself in them.  In the first one, he tore his bicep while kicking someone (a pretty amazing feat if you ask me).  When he came back from that (I think it was 6 months later), he was in the ring only 17 seconds before tearing his quad (that's a leg muscle) while walking across the ring.  It's expected he'll be out 8 months at least.

$700,000 for less than 1 hours work in a year. 

And let's not forget Sid, who jumps off the 2nd rope and shatters his leg.  

See, kids, this is what steroids do to you.  You literally fall apart before you hit 50.

As for legit wrestlers in the WWE, Angle claims that he actually beat Lesnar in a "friendly" match backstage (or on the road).  He also claims that he beat Big Show, who, while not a great, or even good, wrestler, is supposedly one of the strongest guys in the business.

Dean Malenko is also a guy with a lot of technical knowledge.  He's one of my absolute favorites.  

I don't think he ever faced Angle in a match (I've never seen one, at least).  That's a shame because it would have been a great match.  The stuff he did with Benoit, Guererro, and Jericho in WCW and ECW was amazing.

Regal and Fit Finlay are both considered to be some of the toughest guys around.  

Meng (aka Haku) is a just plain scary guy.  He bit a guy's ear or nose off in a barfight.  He may not possess a lot of skill, but it's hard to wrestle a guy who's trying to bite your finger off. 

And, speaking of Regal, I liked him in WCW, and I loved his WWE role, but ever since I earned why he was canned from WCW, I can't look at him the same.

It seems that he's one of those wrestlers who don't handle plane travel well.  On one flight, he got really loaded and when the stewardess refused to give him any more drinks, he knocked her down and, um, urinated on her. Yuck!  I'm surprised he even got hired by WWE after that.*


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 4, 2002)

Villano said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Dean Malenko is also a guy with a lot of technical knowledge.  He's one of my absolute favorites.
> *




I agree. (I apologize if I have said this before..) The best match I have ever seen is the Benoit/Malenko match in WCW- it was move/counter/counter-counter/crowd goes nuts/repeat. 

BTW- malenko may have had a match with Angle in it during the whole (ugh) "radical" storyline.

FD


----------



## Villano (Sep 4, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I agree. (I apologize if I have said this before..) The best match I have ever seen is the Benoit/Malenko match in WCW- it was move/counter/counter-counter/crowd goes nuts/repeat.
> 
> ...





You can say that Malenko is the best as many times as you want, I won't object.

You're right about the Radicals.  If he they did face each other, it was most likely in a tag match (an awful lot of tag matches during that time).

BTW, have you ever seen any of Malenko's matches from his time in Japan.  I saw one where he was wrestling either Liger or Ultimo Dragon.  The announcers are calling the match in Japanese (naturally), when I suddenly hear them say "Dean Malenko, samurai".

It was pretty cool to hear him getting the respect he never really got here.


----------



## Dahak (Sep 4, 2002)

Wow... for a few moments, I thought I was reading a thread on Kayfabe Memories rather than EN World.


----------



## Furn_Darkside (Sep 4, 2002)

Villano said:
			
		

> *
> It was pretty cool to hear him getting the respect he never really got here. *




I always think it is a great shame that the smaller wrestlers must be in the same show as the larger guys. 

Most of the larger guys have little ability beyond being.. large.

However- when in matchs against them, the smaller and more technical wrestlers lose prestige in the process.

BTW- since you seem to be in the know. Where is Malenko now? Last I heard he was working backstage to help shapen up the skills of other wrestlers, but that was some time ago.

FD


----------



## Villano (Sep 4, 2002)

Furn_Darkside said:
			
		

> *
> 
> I always think it is a great shame that the smaller wrestlers must be in the same show as the larger guys.
> 
> ...





Well, it would help if the big guys actually sold once in a while. 

And I agree with you about the big guys having little more than their size.  It's rare that you see them do little more than "punch, kick, stomp".  Has Big Show ever done an actual wrestling move in his entire career?

And Malenko is supposedly working as a road agent.  I hear he's very happy with his new position.  

I'm not sure if he's still doing any teaching, though.  During his last days with WCW, he closed down his own school, so I don't know if he's just lost the urge to teach.

The thing is that WWE has one of the best technicians on the planet, and they don't use him on Tough Enough.  Considering that some of these kids are so green as to be embarrassing *cough*Jackie*cough*, they need someone who can teach them the concept of "hold/counterhold".

And Malenko has a reputation as a nice and funny guy.  So much so, in fact, that he almost got an announcing gig on Smackdown or Heat when he first retired from the ring.  Considering that he almost got a full-time position on camera behind a mike, I doubt that he doesn't have the personality to be on the show.

Oh, well, like I said, he seems to be happy where he is.  He's in his '40's now, so he probably just wants an office job, collecting a good paycheck and spending more time with his family.


----------



## Eternalknight (Sep 4, 2002)

On a side note, other than the official WWE site, do you guys know of any good wrestling sites?  In particular, things that deal with behind the scenes stuff?


----------



## Black Omega (Sep 4, 2002)

Dean was also booking the cruiserweight division for a time, for what it's worth.  His technical skill is pretty impressive.  He and his brother trained Carl Malenko (and let him use the Malenko name) for wrestling but he's handled himself pretty well in shoot matches in PRIDE.

As for Sid, I wasn't really thinking of him breaking his leg.  More the 'take it easy on him' orders Benoit had for matches with Sid in the WCW.  As well as the infamous squeegie incident with Brian Pillman.

Meng/Haku is a very tough guy along the lines of APA.  Not a guy you'd want to fight in a bar.  During his never lose streak in the WCW part of the reason he never lost was the booker didn't want to meet him face to face and tell him to lose.


----------



## Triple H (Sep 11, 2002)

Hey guys glad to see wrestling being talked about on the Enworld. For those of you who dont know I am a real life wrestler still training to make it into the big leagues.

If you have any questions just let me know.


----------



## Eternalknight (Sep 12, 2002)

Triple H said:
			
		

> *Hey guys glad to see wrestling being talked about on the Enworld. For those of you who dont know I am a real life wrestler still training to make it into the big leagues.
> 
> If you have any questions just let me know. *




On a side note, other than the official WWE site, do you guys know of any good wrestling sites? In particular, things that deal with behind the scenes stuff?


----------



## Black Omega (Sep 12, 2002)

There are a few worth checking out.

Wrestling Observer Online 
More an online advertisement for Dave's Wrestling Observer newsletter.  But still pretty cool.  For inside info you won't beat WO, but it costs money.

1wrestling.com A silly number of popups but at least current info.

That's about it.  With the wrestling boom well past, I'm finding the other websites I have bookmarked are mostly gone.


----------



## Villano (Sep 12, 2002)

*Oops...*

Sorry, Eternalknight.  I kinda forgot about this thread.

Like Black Omega says, Wrestling Observer is a great site. 

1Wrestling is also good information-wise, but I haven't been on it in a while due to the site itself.  All the ads and other crap causes it to take forever to load on my system.  

Plus there are a lot of redundancies.  Take the "Ask 1Wrestling" column.  Click on the link only to be taken to a page that tells you to click on something else which takes you to a page with the intro from which you have to click on something else to get to the first questions.

Add that to the a slow loading time and you see why I tend to not go there.

Another site is www.pwtorch.com

So-so site.  It can have some good info, but some of the columnists think they are comedians and try their hands at "funny" (to use the word very loosely) columns.

They also allow guest editorials, sometimes written by people who state the painfully obvious or are complete WWE fanboys.  

I usually avoid them along with the letters from readers.        

I haven't watched an entire episode of RAW (I don't get Smackdown) in quite awhile.  I'll turn it on every once in a while and watch until something incredibly stupid happens at which point I turn it off.

Sadly, they are becoming more and more like WCW every day.  Some good matches (usually thrown together with no backstory) which end in DQs.  Main eventers who are getting old and/or aren't good wrestlers, who use their power to push themselves (Triple H is just handed the title?! Sure, whatever.).

It all comes down to very bad writing (which MacMahon will never admit since his daughter, Steph, is in charge) and bad business decisions (Let's hire all the guys who brought down WCW!  Brilliant, Vince!).

The ratings have been dipping week-by-week, and knowing Vince, he'll blame it on the "little guys" and the new guys.  His solution will probably be to have Triple H and Undertaker squash some mid-carders.       

I just read something on PW Torch which said that, 4 years ago, WCW & WWF were pulling in a combined rating around 9.  Now WWE is hovering around a 3.4.  That means that there are less than half the fans watching anymore.

Vince will probably continue to cut talent (Whatever happened to Jerry Lynn and the WCW cruiserweights?) to save costs (While paying Nash to stay at home).  

And we'll see Undertaker vs Triple H for the 1,000th time.  

Oh, joy.


----------



## Wild Fandango (Sep 13, 2002)

I still think that one of the best was Mick Foley.. I really dont' know anyone who worked harder and who really didn't have any tallent whatsoever, but the man worked really hard and payed the price that is for sure.. Mr. Socko was damn funny..

And speaking of Foley, the second Hell in the Cell match where Undertaker threw him off and then through the top of the cage was unbelievable.. sorry, but if anyone says that was fake needs to be chokeslamed through a cage to the mat 15ft below...

as of now, I really don't like too many wrestlers in the biz.. i like Rey Mysterio just because the man defies gravity, Triple H cause he is well, Triple H  and a few others that I won't bore people with..


----------



## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2002)

We know that some of the high-risk maneuvers and stunts they do are not fake. They're well-choreagraphed stunts. Like stuntmen, these performers are willing to put their body on the line to captivate their audience.

But being high risk, sh*t happens. Like Droz, for example. He was paralyzed after he got power-bombed from J-Lo Brown. Steve Austin had to undergo neck surgery years later to correct an injury caused by a piledriver maneuver. In fact, that maneuver and variations of that have not been used very often in WWE matches, what with the Undertaker's most famous signature move is the Tombstone being replaced with The Last Ride (a power bomb variation).


----------



## Black Omega (Sep 13, 2002)

Ranger REG said:
			
		

> *We know that some of the high-risk maneuvers and stunts they do are not fake. They're well-choreagraphed stunts. Like stuntmen, these performers are willing to put their body on the line to captivate their audience.*



A good point.  I'll also give props to the high flyers because they are doing real teim stunts they must get right the first time.

*



			But being high risk, sh*t happens. Like Droz, for example. He was paralyzed after he got power-bombed from J-Lo Brown.
		
Click to expand...


*I'm pretty sure you mean D-Lo Brown.

*



			Steve Austin had to undergo neck surgery years later to correct an injury caused by a piledriver maneuver. In fact, that maneuver and variations of that have not been used very often in WWE matches, what with the Undertaker's most famous signature move is the Tombstone being replaced with The Last Ride (a power bomb variation).
		
Click to expand...


*Yes, Austin held that against Owen Hart right to the end.  Ironically, Austin almost killed a Japanese wrestler in the same way, earlier.

In Lucha Libre down in Mexico piledrivers were outlawed years ago.  They still use them, but only very rarely and they are put over as a devestating, That's-The-End type of move.


----------



## Ranger REG (Sep 13, 2002)

Um yeah, D-Lo Brown. My bad. For some reason my head is filled with Jennifer Lopez. I mean it's bad enough I'm already dreaming of Trish, Torrie, and Stacy in a nude freestyle wrestling match and I'm the coach.


----------

