# Flaganus vs. Module Plot



## Kzach (Jan 25, 2010)

So, I ran the Flaganus encounter and the players, being clever cookies, immediately tried Diplomacy and then Intimidate.

Both succeeded.

I was feeling really sick at the time of running it and was running a fever so I wasn't really in the best of mind-sets and ended up slavishly following the module text.

In other words, I ignored the rolls. I really regret doing this as I hate that kind of thing as a player so I started trying to think of how I could've done things differently. In hindsight, though, I'm not sure how I could've changed anything.

Intimidate is just too damn powerful. But that's not the real issue. The issue is that there's really not much you could do in this situation. He's not about to hand over the kid, and the PC's aren't about to let him go.

So how would you 'fix' this encounter?


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## Morrus (Jan 25, 2010)

Although you can use Intimidate to get a bloodied enemy to surrender, I'd have house-ruled that to say that the _party_ had to have bloodied him.  Otherwise you could technically walk into a hospital and intimidate everyone.

Situational modifiers are also the DM's best friend.


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## Kzach (Jan 25, 2010)

Morrus said:


> Situational modifiers are also the DM's best friend.




I didn't consider that but a situational modifier is usually a +2 in 4e, and the Intimidate roll was 28 meaning it passed by 3.

Part of the problem, of course, was that I just didn't foresee the intimidate issue (or diplomacy for that matter). If I had, I think I would've changed his hit points to 2/3 instead of bloodied. That way, the tension of the kid situation still occurs and the party is still motivated to burn dailies on him (my players were pissed at him and I figure most people would be).

The main problem, though, is that the situation doesn't allow for any other result, regardless of what the players do or say. As a DM and player, I really don't like that.

Part of what interested me in running WotBS in the first place was the obvious effort that had been made to allow for a variety of outcomes and situations. It's what I feel both makes it good and challenging to run as a DM, and interesting and challenging to play through.

I guess there will be exceptions to this, but it would be nice to have some alternative directions that the encounter could take. Normally I would've let things play out naturally, but I could see the importance of making the enemy a real enemy in the minds of the players, hence my hesitation when running the encounter and my query here on how it could be done differently whilst effecting the same result.


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## Kneecleaver (Jan 25, 2010)

Maybe there is something I'm not seeing, but is there a problem with them actually cowing him, saving the child and taking him captive?   Flanagus knows that he's got mates not far behind him so any imprisonment won't last that long.  Then you could have a mob rules scene at the safehouse, if they actually take him there.  Otherwise you might have a situation where the party has a prisoner and they need to do something with him.

I'm not intimately familar with these modules yet, but I don't see a major problem with the encounter turning out different than laid forth in the module, it doesn't seem to be a lynchpin unless I'm overlooking something.

If a party does well with both Diplomacy and Intimidate, they should have a resolution to this that reflects that.  Flaganus has both a 14 INT and WIS, he's not a mindless beast that is only going to react in a Fight/Flight manner.  He knows that he's dead if he takes on the party and just maybe these week willed people will delay executing him long enough that he gets rescued, or perhaps he can escape.  To me this kind of resolution is just as interesting as a combat.  Plus they get to save the kid's life.


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## Daern (Jan 25, 2010)

I think it would have been legitimate to require those checks to be part of a skill challenge (a la WOTBS guide "changing attitudes"), but that would be even more of a drag for a sick DM...  Its a tough call.  The orc is definitely a cornered animal in this scene.  He's just killed the mother and more or less ready to die.  I think its legit to say that a bloodied orc is in his "bloodied rage" state from Warrior's Surge and therefore even less intimidated... Hope it was a good fight!


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## Kneecleaver (Jan 25, 2010)

Durn said:


> I think it would have been legitimate to require those checks to be part of a skill challenge (a la WOTBS guide "changing attitudes")...




digression
This is off the subject of the thread, but I really hate skill challenges in 4E.  I like the concept of what they try to present, but the execution of the concept is sorely lacking.  I just do skill stuff free form as I always have.  I think the entire skill challenge structure was really unnecessary.
/digression


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## Truename (Jan 25, 2010)

Kzach said:


> I guess there will be exceptions to this, but it would be nice to have some alternative directions that the encounter could take. Normally I would've let things play out naturally, but I could see the importance of making the enemy a real enemy in the minds of the players, hence my hesitation when running the encounter and my query here on how it could be done differently whilst effecting the same result.




My group is starting our WotBS campaign tomorrow, so I haven't played this encounter yet. But it's one of the ones that stood out for me on my read-through. I like it because it establishes, early on, that this is a campaign world where there's consequences beyond winning or losing a fight, and there isn't always a happy ending.

In my notes, I put Flaganus down as "desperate and disoriented." He's trapped behind enemy lines and he just fell out of the sky and took massive damage. If this were to come up with my group, I think I'd do the same thing you did. I'd roleplay an effect of the check, but the end result would be the same. For diplomacy, I'd have him back slowly out of the room, threatening the hostage, then turning and fleeing when out of sight. For intimidate, I'd have him turn and flee immediately, throwing the baby in order to slow down the party.

Thanks for bringing this up! My group will probably try something similar, so it's nice to discuss it in advance.


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## samursus (Jan 25, 2010)

My group did this encounter last night.  They basically told FM that he wasn't leaving the building while he had the kid, so he did what he was supposed to according to the text.  And man, was the party ever mad!  Characters jumping in, using action points, full out rage assault.  Flaganus really shone the first 3 or 4 rounds, dropping one character to 0 hps in 1 attack and almost doing the same to the defender.  Unfortunately, his rolls took a bit of a nosedive after that AND I forgot he was bloodied!  So my players ended up taking him out at full hps!  Thus actually worked out well, because they missed out on xp from Animal Crossing and Shocking Revelations.


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## housefull (Jan 26, 2010)

If a party does well with both Diplomacy and Intimidate, they should have a resolution to this that reflects that. Flaganus has both a 14 INT and WIS, he's not a mindless beast that is only going to react in a Fight/Flight manner. He knows that he's dead if he takes on the party and just maybe these week willed people will delay executing him long enough that he gets rescued, or perhaps he can escape. To me this kind of resolution is just as interesting as a combat. Plus they get to save the kid's life.


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## Daern (Jan 26, 2010)

They are a bit of a pain sometimes but can also be a good structure. Anyways my point I guess was not to let the one or two high rolls determine the encounter, ask for a few more rolls and give yourself room to negotiate.  Sometimes when my players get a super high roll on a skill check I feel a bit like a deer in headlights -"Now what?"


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## Kzach (Jan 26, 2010)

Truename said:


> My group is starting our WotBS campaign tomorrow, so I haven't played this encounter yet. But it's one of the ones that stood out for me on my read-through. I like it because it establishes, early on, that this is a campaign world where there's consequences beyond winning or losing a fight, and there isn't always a happy ending.




Yes, exactly, which is why I couldn't process a result that would give the same sense of anger without the kid dying.



Durn said:


> Sometimes when my players get a super high roll on a skill check I feel a bit like a deer in headlights -"Now what?"




Yeah, that's what happened to me as well. A 25 DC is pretty damn unlikely to succeed and it didn't occur to me that it would and I'd have to deal with the result.

I definitely could've handled the encounter better, which is why I felt this thread might help others who have to run the encounter.


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## SteveC (Jan 27, 2010)

For what it's worth, I would have let it stand and congratulated the group on coming up with a good solution to the problem. There's nothing plot related that saving the child alters, and later on when the councilman talks about the wyvern rider that a mysterious group defeated, it becomes even a bigger story in the telling!

I ran the scenario twice for different groups, and the first time the encounter went as expected. Boy was the group angry! They had a genuinely emotional moment as a result, and I expanded the story a bit as they were looking for the boy's father to try and make amends.

In the second game, the group had a priest who walked up to Flaganus and put himself in front of the axe, going so far as to offer to be helpless to give him a free coup de gras. With that sacrifice in mind (he almost died from it) I let them save the child. It was a very emotional moment as well. The character in question had grown up on the streets and told me he would not suffer a child's death, even at the cost of his own life. I gave him the toughest fight I could, but in the end they won...and the story became better for it.

In other words, I'd say "roll with it..." you'll have the possibility for a great story as a result.

--Steve


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## Truename (Jan 27, 2010)

SteveC said:


> In the second game, the group had a priest who walked up to Flaganus and put himself in front of the axe, going so far as to offer to be helpless to give him a free coup de gras. With that sacrifice in mind (he almost died from it) I let them save the child. It was a very emotional moment as well. The character in question had grown up on the streets and told me he would not suffer a child's death, even at the cost of his own life. I gave him the toughest fight I could, but in the end they won...and the story became better for it.




That's awesome. I hope I would have done the same.

To be clear, what I object to in this encounter is allowing "instant win" diplomacy/intimidate rolls to cheapen the emotional aspect of the encounter. Truly creative and interesting solutions like this one add to the weight of the encounter, and I hope my group comes up with something nearly as good.


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## Kzach (Jan 27, 2010)

SteveC said:


> In other words, I'd say "roll with it..." you'll have the possibility for a great story as a result.




You're right. I regret handling it the way I did. I can only learn from the mistake I guess.


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