# Converting monsters from First Edition modules



## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions” started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in various First Edition modules.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

The following is a list of monsters from 1E modules that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog.  You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when.  If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.

A2 - Secret of the Slavers' Stockade
Cave Beetle
Cave Lizard
Cave Spider
Caveling

C5 - Bane of Llywelyn
Viper Vines

CB1 - Conan: Unchained! 
Summonings

CB2 - Conan: Against Darkness! 
Crawler in the Dark
Fire Guardians
Serpent Folk
Winged Gaunt

DQ1 - Shattered Statue
Dragonwright
Hydravine, Giant

I5 – Lost Tomb of Martek
Cryptknights

I8 – Ravager of Time
Golem, Slime
Life-Bane Duplicates

I13 - Adventure Pack I 
Ape, Giant
Caterpillar, Giant
Living Pool
Lure Lichen
Mouse, Giant
Rat, Gigantic
Snake Grass
Spear Grass
Spyder Plant
Sunflower, Giant
Topiary Plant
Walking Stick

OP1 - Tales of the Outer Planes
Flame Roper
Wartle

RS1 - Red Sonja Unconquered 
Drowner
Nika

S3 - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks
Android
Robot, Worker

UK5 - Eye of the Serpent 
Splanxty

UK6 - All that Glitters... 
Atem
Hek


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

here's my first conversion for this thread, from module C3:

FERAL SLASHER
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMORCLASS: 2
MOVE: 24”
HIT DICE: 2+3
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4
DAMAGE ATTACK: 1-6 / 1-6 / 1-4 / 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Ferocity may stun or cause fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Neutral
SIZE: S (3’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 11\65 + 3/hp
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/Nil

This three-foot-tall mammalian carnivore relies on blinding speed and ferocity to stun and panic its prey. It is dull-witted, attacking regardless of the size of its victim, and slow to respond to the unexpected. It resembles a hyena but with oversized hind legs. The multiple attacks represent two jaw and two claw attacks per round. A victim must roll his charisma or less on 1d20 to avoid being stunned or panicked. If the roll fails, roll ld6. 1-4 indicates that the victim is stunned for one melee round; 5-6 indicates panic, and the victim runs from the attack for two rounds.



here is my basic outline for the feral slasher:

*Feral Slasher*
Small Magical Beast
HD: 2d10+X (X hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 60 ft (12 squares)
AC: 18 (+1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: Claw +X melee (1d4+X) or bite +X (1d6+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X/+X melee (1d6+X) and 2 claws (1d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Ferocity
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 2 Wis X Chr X
Skills: Listen +, Spot +
Feats: 1 (Multiattack?)

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary or pair
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always chaotic neutral
Advancement: 2-4 HD (Small); 5-6 HD (Medium)
Level Adjustment: ---



Also, I found a 3.0 conversion of the feral slasher here: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=889 - perhaps we can make use of this version in our new one.


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## Echohawk (Oct 16, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> C3 – Lost Island of Castanamir
> Gingwatzim



 Dragon  #295 already has 3.0 stats for five types of Gingwatzim  (Eoluzim, Graegzim, Maronzim, Naranzim and Pakim). Are there any other flavours in C3?


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## BOZ (Oct 16, 2003)

ah, that's right, i had heard they were somewhere but couldn't remember... in c3 there were those 5 types, as well as the Tim (the enchanter?) variety, which are the weakest kind.  that being the case, i don't think i'll bother converting them.


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## Echohawk (Oct 16, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ah, that's right, i had heard they were somewhere but couldn't remember...



 There is definitely a need for a master index of D&D creatures, listing all of their appearances during the last 30-odd years. Shouldn't take more than a few months to compile


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2003)

more discussion here!  

ok...

am i right in thinking this should be a magical beast?  under 3.0 it clearly would qualify as a beast, but in 3.5 i'm not as sure.

i included this link to provoke discussion:



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, I found a 3.0 conversion of the feral slasher here: http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=889 - perhaps we can make use of this version in our new one.




and i liked some things and disliked other things from that conversion.

i like that he gave it scent, but i think pounce is wrong.  if anything, it should have trip since it is like a hyena.  and also, we need to figure out how its "ferocity" power should work.  i know it sounds like frightful presence, but there needs to be a way for a 3 foot tall creature to affect a 6 foot tall creature like that.  i don't know, give it some thought.  get back to me on that.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> am i right in thinking this should be a magical beast?  under 3.0 it clearly would qualify as a beast, but in 3.5 i'm not as sure.




I'd say you are correct.  From the MM 3.5 Making Monsters chapter:

"If your creature resembles an animal, but is intelligent or has supernatural or spell-like abilities, it's probably a magical beast. You can also use this type for animallike creatures that combine the features of two or more animals, or are _similar to animals but just tougher_."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i like that he gave it scent, but i think pounce is wrong.  if anything, it should have trip since it is like a hyena.  and also, we need to figure out how its "ferocity" power should work.  i know it sounds like frightful presence, but there needs to be a way for a 3 foot tall creature to affect a 6 foot tall creature like that.  i don't know, give it some thought.  get back to me on that.




How about:

*Ferocity (Ex):*   Any creature struck by the feral slasher's natural attacks must succeed on a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 feral slaher's HD + feral slasher's Constitution modifier) or be stunned for 1 round.  If the Fortitude save is successful, the victim must then make a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 feral slaher's HD + feral slasher's Constitution modifier) or become panicked for 2 rounds.  

I agree with you on Multiattack as its feat.


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## BOZ (Oct 20, 2003)

it's got promise... i'll see what i can do when i have some time to work with it.


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## Filby (Oct 21, 2003)

Is the steeder from H2 the duergar spider? If so, it's already in 'Races of Faerun'.

Btw, it's nice to see some new conversions from you, in this thread and the other... always excellent quality.


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## BOZ (Oct 21, 2003)

thanks filby; are you sure they're the same spider?


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## BOZ (Oct 21, 2003)

shade; i like the writeup for the ferocity, but charisma should be the DC base for all fear-type effects.  and also, i think we need to rename it a bit since "ferocity" is now the ability to stay conscious after 0 hp.

also, i think the effect should have a limit, like only working once or once per encounter.


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## Filby (Oct 21, 2003)

No prob. I can't say for sure, since I've never seen H2... I'm only going by the name.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> shade; i like the writeup for the ferocity, but charisma should be the DC base for all fear-type effects.  and also, i think we need to rename it a bit since "ferocity" is now the ability to stay conscious after 0 hp.
> 
> also, i think the effect should have a limit, like only working once or once per encounter.




How about calling it "Feral Slash" since that's the name of the monster, and is unlikely to be used for another ability down the line?

I'm in favor of either once per encounter, or stating that once a creature successfully saves, it is immune to that feral slashers _special attack name_ for 24 hours.


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## BOZ (Oct 21, 2003)

i rewrote it like this:

Feral Fury (Ex): Any creature struck by the feral slasher's natural attacks must succeed on a Will save (DC 11 + feral slasher's Charisma modifier) or become panicked for two rounds. If the first save was successful, the victim must then make another Will save (DC 11 + feral slasher's Charisma modifier) or be stunned for one round.  After the first successful attack from a feral slasher, that victim is immune to this effect for the remainder of the encounter.   The save DC is Charisma-based.

the power wasn't meant to be super strong, but it should mess up lower level guys pretty good, and i think this covers it a little better.

now, to work on ability scores...

how about Str 8, Dex 21, Con 14, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 14?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i rewrote it like this:
> 
> Feral Fury (Ex): Any creature struck by the feral slasher's natural attacks must succeed on a Will save (DC 11 + feral slasher's Charisma modifier) or become panicked for two rounds. If the first save was successful, the victim must then make another Will save (DC 11 + feral slasher's Charisma modifier) or be stunned for one round.  After the first successful attack from a feral slasher, that victim is immune to this effect for the remainder of the encounter.   The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> ...




I like your name for the ability much better.  I'd recommend making the stun save first, as it is the more powerful ability.  It seems logical, that after getting hit so hard you were nearly stunned that you might be scared afterward, rather than not being scared, but finding yourself possibly stunned instead.  

I think you've chosen appropriate ability scores for the critter.


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## BOZ (Oct 22, 2003)

why would you say the stun is a worse effect?  it only lasts one round, and it doesn't send you running away.    now, of course, while stunned the slasher will be attacking you mercilessly...


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> why would you say the stun is a worse effect?  it only lasts one round, and it doesn't send you running away.    now, of course, while stunned the slasher will be attacking you mercilessly...




Both effects are troublesome, but one allows you to try to get away.    

I guess it could go either way.  I was thinking more of a pair of them, where one stunned you while the other tore you apart with your reduced AC.  Plus, while you are only stunned for 1 round, the next round will be spent picking up your weapon unless you've got a decent backup.   I can see your logic, though, and since you're the monster-guru, I'd go with what feels right to you.


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## BOZ (Oct 22, 2003)

i'm not sure which one is better, it could go either way i guess.


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2003)

i meant to update this little beast yesterday, but i fixed it now.  let me know if there's anything i should change about it, or if i should move on.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2003)

He looks good.  Before you move on, don't forget the description.  I suppose you could pretty much throw italics around the first paragraph and call it a day.


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2003)

naw, i want input from you guys.    mainly, for these decriptions i'm looking for whatever adjectives you all can pull out of your heads.

and yes, time for a description.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2003)

_A slavering, furry beast, nearly three feet tall at the shoulders looms before you.  It looks somewhat like a hyena, but its powerul jaws lined with razor-sharp teeth and the crazed look in its eyes hint at something much more feral.  Suddenly it stands on its hind legs, looking like a small gnoll._


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2003)

ok, next.  this one is fairly easy, and is really just a miniature iron golem so we can modify the stats from there.


IRON MAN

FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 12”
HITDICE: 4
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +3 weapon to hit, magical fire repairs damage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Only affected by electrical magic attacks
INTELLIGENCE: Non-intelligent
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (3’ tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: IV/165 + 4/hp
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/nil

This is a miniature iron golem; it costs one-third as much and requires only one month to construct. Like a full-sized iron golem, it is under the control of the magic-user who created it. The poisonous cloud of the iron man is 1” x 1” x 1” every 7 rounds, but causes only 1-6 points of damage, no save. It is smaller and less formidable than an iron golem but twice as fast. It is damaged only by +3 or better weapons. Only electrical magical attacks affect it, slowing it 50% for 3 rounds. Magical fire attacks repair damage on a one-hit-point for one-hit-point basis. An iron man is vulnerable to rust monster attacks.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, next.  this one is fairly easy, and is really just a miniature iron golem so we can modify the stats from there.




You know, I've always thought that WOTC should have come up with a guideline for reducing monsters, similar to advancing monsters.   It shouldn't be too hard, simply use the size change table in reverse, lower the DC's based on lowered HD and ability scores, etc.   I suppose the Gauth in the 3.5 MM was their attempt at this in a manner.

As for this little fellow, I'd recommend reducing the DR to 5/adamantine, give it 10 bonus hit points (as a Small construct), and make the following size modifications (reducing from Large to Small):  -12 Str, +4 Dex, -2 natual armor, +2 size modifier to attack and AC.  Oh, and of course reduce the grapple bonus by -8.


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## BOZ (Oct 27, 2003)

ok, posted some stats for this thing, let me know what you think.    i upped the Dex a bit more, but lowered the natural armor a bit more.  give me some suggestions on construction costs and other number reductions.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2003)

I'm with you on the stat changes.    I figure it should weigh 1250 lbs.  Basically, I divided the iron golem's weight by its height, and multiplied the result by 3 to arrive at this number.  It's a much cleaner number than dividing 5000 by 3.     

I can't figure out a formula for the DCs on Craft checks, so I'm just copying off the flesh golem (DC 13).

CONSTRUCTION
An iron man’s body is sculpted from 1,250 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 2,500 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 13 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 13 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

As for the rest of the construction, I still can't figure out how they came up with the XP costs.  They don't match the 1/25 of the gp cost rule of the Craft Construct feat, unless I'm missing something.  (For the iron golem, 300 XP can be attributed to limited wish, but the other spells have no XP costs).


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2003)

ok, we still need to figure out caster level, as well as the cost to make it.  i'll take a good estimate.  

also, do you like the way i set the values for the breath weapon?


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## Leopold (Oct 28, 2003)

boz where are you posting these thigns at?


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> also, do you like the way i set the values for the breath weapon?




I like it.

As for the caster level, I'd like to see it rather low, as this is an "entry-level" golem.   The minimum caster level it can be is 5th, since Craft Construct requires Craft Magic Arms and Armor, which has a prereq of caster level 5th.  It would be nice if we could come up with some alternate spells that aren't as high-level.  Maybe poison or stinking cloud, lesser geas and animate objects?


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2003)

Leopold said:
			
		

> boz where are you posting these thigns at?




homebrews forum, in the other sticky thread.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> As for the caster level, I'd like to see it rather low, as this is an "entry-level" golem.   The minimum caster level it can be is 5th, since Craft Construct requires Craft Magic Arms and Armor, which has a prereq of caster level 5th.  It would be nice if we could come up with some alternate spells that aren't as high-level.  Maybe poison or stinking cloud, lesser geas and animate objects?




sounds like a good way to go.  anyone have any further ideas?


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## Leopold (Oct 28, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds like a good way to go.  anyone have any further ideas?





i'm all for poison cloud on these, 1d3 dex damage let's say? or stinking cloud type damage?


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## Leopold (Oct 28, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> homebrews forum, in the other sticky thread.





so are you gonna post these in the thread and update them taht way or do we have to toggle between each? I prefer it if you post in this thread so i don't have to open another window to look at it while you update.


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## BOZ (Oct 28, 2003)

they're a lot easier to find if i keep them all in one place.  that way i, and everyone else, don't have to dig through pages and pages of posts to find what we want.

see?  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66577


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## BOZ (Oct 29, 2003)

any more ideas on values for construction?  or should we go with shade's ideas?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I11 – Needle
> Chak
> Tin Man




I was looking at this module today, and noticed the following weren't listed: 
Chomper (to the purple worm what the iron man is to the iron golem)
Glommer (is this the girallon?)
Roc, Moon

Have these appeared somewhere else?


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2003)

as far as the construction goes, i think i want to keep the same spells for the iron man as the iron golem.  it's already been established that someone can cast the spells for you (i think, right?)  i think the caster level should be more like 6th or 7th.  as for the GP and XP costs... any ideas?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2003)

I do not have any of these modules, but I found the following monsters in an onlne index of 1E modules.  I figured I'd post 'em in cast you missed them, BOZ.

C5 - Bane of Llywelyn
Viper Vines

DQ1 - The Shattered Statue
Awtawmatawyn 

I4 - Oasis of the White Palm
Aeraldoth (vizier to Caliph of the Djinn)
Pasha of the Efreet (Vizier of the Fire Sultan)
Symbayan 
Thune Dervish


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## BOZ (Oct 30, 2003)

and the contruction costs?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and the contruction costs?




Alright, alright.    

CL 6th; Craft Construct, _cloudkill, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object_, caster must be at least 16th level; Price 25,000 gp; Cost 15,000 gp + 900 XP.

Does that seem reasonable?


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

sorry, i can be annoying.  

as far as the caster levels changing... i noticed that the caster levels were identical for the stone golem and the greater stone golem as were the spells used to create them (although, not surprisingly, the costs increased).  should we heed that or is it good to have a lower caster level for this lil' golemite?


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

and, thanks for the additions to the list.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

Let's heed the tradition.  Besides, the caster level isn't going to make much difference when it requires a 16th-level caster to pop out polymorph any object, right?


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

right.    now for a description and we move on...


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

_What first appeared to be a 3 foot tall statue of an armored figure begins to move, revealing it to be a tiny automaton._


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

ok, next we're doing monsters from the module WG5 Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure!


Colchiln

FREQUENCY Rare (on the Prime Material Plane)
NO. APPEARING: 2-16
ARMORCLASS: 4
MOVE: 10”
HIT DICE: 4-7
% IN LAIR: 60%
TREASURE TYPE: F
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-9/4-9 (plus strength bonus)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSE: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Evil
SIZE: S (4 ft.)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: (4 HD) III/130 +  5/hp; (7 HD) V/500 +  10/hp

The Colchiln are a most uncommon demon-spawn, set upon this world to assist high-level evil beings (demons or similar creatures). They may be found wherever major concentrations of evil are located, but are most often found underground in mountainous caves that extend into the inky depths of the earth, lower level dungeons where abominable rites are practiced and horned non-human deities are worshipped. The colchiln are possibly created from larvae, but the complete process is unknown. Their mission is to serve and follow. They do this very well, for even if they are incapable of imaginative thought, they usually have a good memory and can follow orders explicitly. They are thus often incorporated into legions to fight subterranean wars to which those “evil ones of the pits and caverns” are accustomed.
The colchiln attack with their iron-hard claws, but have no teeth. They usually (55%) move silently, and when set for ambush, surprise their victims two-thirds of the time.
Their strengths range from 18/01 to 18/00, but the creatures gain only the +3, +4, +5, or +6 damage bonus (add to the base ld6.3 points of damage) and not the corresponding “to hit” bonus, as they are rather uncoordinated. However, their appearance provides no indication of their great strength. They never check morale, and will impassively fight to the death in all situations.

Description
A colchiln is black in color, bipedal, with scale-like skin and lidless, bulbous white eyes. Its mouth sports no teeth, but its red forked serpent’s tongue is used to sense things. Its four-fingered hands have iron-hard claws, adamantite-hard in larger varieties of colchiln.



here are some preliminary stats:

*Colchiln*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
HD: 4d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
AC: 15 (+X size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+X
Attack: Claw +X melee (2d4+X)
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (2d4+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: X
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, (damage reduction X/X?), (fearless?), spell resistance 15
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 19 (at least) Dex X Con X Int 6 Wis X Chr X
Skills: Move Silently (+6 bonus)
Feats: ---

Environment: (Gehenna?  Hades?  Carceri? – probably created from larva)
Organization: 2-16
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT


Originally found in module WG5 - Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure (1984, Robert J. Kuntz and Gary Gygax).


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

Interesting beastie.   Shouldn't it be size Small, since it is only 4 feet tall?   Also, it is "demon-spawned" but Neutral Evil.   So, should we just say fiend-spawned and make a creation of the yugoloths?   Then we can make its plane of origin Gehenna.

Here's a few preliminary ideas filled into what you had.  I used the Mane and the Dretch for inspiration for its ability scores other than Strength, and gave it a low Dex to account for its "rather uncoordinated" nature.  

I suggest we state that they always Power Attack at their full base attack bonus, to simulate the Strength bonus to damage but not on attack rolls.  Whaddya think?

Colchiln
Medium Outsider (Evil, Extraplanar)
HD: 4d8+8 (26 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares)
AC: 15 (+0 size, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+9
Attack: Claw +9 melee (2d4+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (2d4+5)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, damage reduction 5/cold iron or good, immunity to fear, spell resistance 15
Saves: Fort +6 Ref +3 Will +5
Abilities: Str 21 Dex 9 Con 14 Int 6 Wis 12 Chr 4
Skills: Hide +7, Listen +7, Move Silently +13 (includes +6 racial bonus) , Spot +7 14 total
Feats: Improved Initiative, Power Attack

Environment: (Gehenna? Hades? Carceri? – probably created from larva)
Organization: Solitary, pair, or legion (2-16)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium); 9-12 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

> Interesting beastie.




I thought so.  Definitely different.  



> Shouldn't it be size Small, since it is only 4 feet tall?




I wondered about this one myself.  Dwarves are 4 feet tall, after all, and in 3E they are considered Medium.  But I can go either way on that…



> Also, it is "demon-spawned" but Neutral Evil. So, should we just say fiend-spawned and make a creation of the yugoloths? Then we can make its plane of origin Gehenna.




it’s a matter of 1E terminology being less precise than 3E.  Sean Reynolds would have a field day with this one.    I would say that this thing is considered a “multi-purpose” servitor.  Yugoloths sound like a good idea, but we can always give them an ambiguous origin.  The text suggests that they are “possibly created from larvae”, so maybe it’s really the night hags that created them?  That would make their plane of origin Hades.  It’s something to puzzle over.   



> Here's a few preliminary ideas filled into what you had. I used the Mane and the Dretch for inspiration for its ability scores other than Strength, and gave it a low Dex to account for its "rather uncoordinated" nature.




good call!



> I suggest we state that they always Power Attack at their full base attack bonus, to simulate the Strength bonus to damage but not on attack rolls. Whaddya think?




that could work nicely.    flavor text all the way, though.



> Special Qualities: immunity to fear




would this work like the paladin’s Aura of Courage, except that it only affects the colchiln?




> Skills: Hide +7, Listen +7, Move Silently +13 (includes +6 racial bonus) , Spot +7 14 total




that’s definitely more than 14… unless you forgot to adjust Hide and MS by –1 for low Dex?



> Feats: Improved Initiative




didn’t you say they were uncoordinated?


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I wondered about this one myself.  Dwarves are 4 feet tall, after all, and in 3E they are considered Medium.  But I can go either way on that…




The dretch is 4 feet tall and Small.  Besides, dwarves just get that because they are the 3.5 uber-race.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it’s a matter of 1E terminology being less precise than 3E.  Sean Reynolds would have a field day with this one.    I would say that this thing is considered a “multi-purpose” servitor.  Yugoloths sound like a good idea, but we can always give them an ambiguous origin.  The text suggests that they are “possibly created from larvae”, so maybe it’s really the night hags that created them?  That would make their plane of origin Hades.  It’s something to puzzle over.




No kidding!  SKR would blow a gasket, especially if we outfitted them with "enchanted" weapons.   How about stick with the ambiguous origin, but instead of demonic say "fiendish".  We could set the environment simply as "Lower Planes", right?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> would this work like the paladin’s Aura of Courage, except that it only affects the colchiln?




That sounds do-able.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that’s definitely more than 14… unless you forgot to adjust Hide and MS by –1 for low Dex?




Oops!  That should state "14 remaining", as it has a total of 42 skill points and I allocated all but 14.   But...I did forget to adjust everything for low Dex.  For some reason, I always think of 9 as +0 instead of -1 for stats.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> didn’t you say they were uncoordinated?




Yep, but many monsters with Dex-penalties have Imp. Init.  It's one of the only ways to simulate "suprise" in 3E, right?


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## BOZ (Oct 31, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> The dretch is 4 feet tall and Small.  Besides, dwarves just get that because they are the 3.5 uber-race.




good point - Small it is then!



> No kidding!  SKR would blow a gasket, especially if we outfitted them with "enchanted" weapons.   How about stick with the ambiguous origin, but instead of demonic say "fiendish".  We could set the environment simply as "Lower Planes", right?




heh heh heh...  

and i guess that could work, but what would be the effect of having it be native to the Lower Planes - does that mean it couldn't be banished from any evil plane or something?


i'm going to alter your statblock a little, and post a new version of it in the homebrews forum in a little while.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2003)

Some official creatures have their environment listed as "Lower Planes" or "Upper Planes" (for example, solars).   I take it to mean that you pick a home plane for the individual beastie, so it Joe Wizard casts banishment, you can cast one back to Carceri, another to Gehenna, etc.

I checked out your updated stats.  It looks good.  Here are my suggestions for skills:  7 ranks each in Climb, Hide, Listen, Spot, Move Silently, Survival. 

For weight, I'd go with 45 lbs.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2003)

i guess it's done then?  would we want to put an LA on it?  is CR 4 about right?

it's kind of fat in the picture, and bulky otherwise, so i made it 95 lbs instead.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2003)

I'm glad you described the picture.  I got the impression that it was gaunt!   The dretch is described as bloated and caps out at the "max" weight of 60 lb. for a Small critter.  But we can bend the rules to 95 lb. if you want.

CR 4 might be too high, as it has no special attacks.  Compare to a Rutterkin, which is CR 3, and has spell-like abilities and summon tanar'ri.  I'm thinking more like CR 2.

Let's ask our resident LA expert if it needs one.


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## BOZ (Nov 3, 2003)

brought it down to 60 pounds then... it's not more bulky than a dretch.  

i have pictures of most of our recent conversions here: http://www.geocities.com/kbozman74/gallery3.html

someone care to write a description of this little puke?


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2003)

_This four-foot tall bipedal creature is bloated with black-scaled skin.  Its arms end in four-fingered claws, and its lidless eyes are bulbous.   A red forked serpent’s tongue darts out of its toothless maw._


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2003)

next!!

Tyrg (Spotted Hound)
FREQUENCY Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 5-8
% IN LAIR: 30%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (6-9 ft. long)
PSIONIC ABILITY Nil
Atack/Defense Modes: Nil/nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: (5 HD) IV/130 + 5/hp; (8 HD) VI/550 + 10/hp

The Tyrg is a cross between a dog (in watchfulness) and a tiger (in stalking ability). These creatures are often found in the mountains, but not too far from woods (wherein they prefer to hunt). When they engage prey in melee, they emit fierce howls which will serve to mildly stun the victims engaged (-1 penalty to initiative, -2 penalty to hit) for the following three rounds. The effects of this stunning are not cumulative, and only after the first three rounds of stunning have worn off can those affected be stunned once again. After howling, a tyrg attacks. Tyrgs can move silently 75% of the time, and are surprised only on a roll of 1 on ld6.
If encountered in their lair, there will be 1-4 young present (20-70% grown). These will fight with the adults to preserve the lair. All others in the lair will be adults, the majority male, though the sexes cannot be told apart
because of a lack of general knowledge regarding these hounds.

Description
A tyrg stands 3 ft. tall at the shoulder and varies in length, as noted above. Its overall coloring is white with grey, black, and tan splotches. Its sleek stance while hunting is reminiscent of’a cat, but its powerful jaws, containing many fangs, demonstrate its relation to the world of dogs.



MC5:

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any/Mountains or hilly forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Pack
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: C
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: 18
HIT DICE: 5-8
THAC0: 5-6 HD: 15
7-8 HD: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Stunning howl, paw rake
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: L (6'-9' long)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 5 HD: 270
6 HD: 420
7HD:650
8 HD: 975

The tyrg is a cross between a dog (in watchfulness) and a tiger (in stalking ability).
A tyrg stands three feet tall at the shoulder and varies in length from six to nine feet. Its overall coloring is white with gray, black, and tan splotches. The tyrg’s sleek stance while hunting is reminiscent of a cat, but its powerful jaws, containing many fangs, demonstrates its relation to the world’s dogs.

Combat: When tyrgs engage prey in melee, they emit fierce howls that serve to mildly stun their victims ( +2 penalty to initiative, -2 penalty to attack rolls) for the following three rounds. There is no saving throw for these howls. Note that the effects of this stunning are not cumulative, and only after the first three rounds of stunning have worn off can those affected be stunned again. After howling, tyrgs attack. Their powerful jaws full of massive teeth cause ld12 points of damage with every vicious bite. If an opponent is overborne, or otherwise finds himself prone on the ground, the tyrg's raking forepaws can inflict ld4 points each on the already besieged victim.
Tyrgs can move silently 75 % of the time and are surprised only on a roll of 1 due to their superior senses.

Habitat/Society Little is known about tyrgs, as they have been encountered only relatively recently. What has been gathered has been from wholly unreliable observation carried out by completely inexperienced information gatherers (i.e., adventurers). Tyrgs have been reportedly sighted in roving packs, leading one to believe they lean heavily to the wild dog branch of their ancestry. However, the few lairs that have been breached successfully tend to support the idea that the female tyrgs do the majority of the hunting. This observation tends to suggest the pride-like nature of tigers and lions.
Combining the two observations is difficult, but a suitable hypothesis has been proposed. Pending verification by trustworthy sources, it is believed that tyrgs travel in roving, almost nomadic, packs across the wilderness. Every few seasons, or perhaps years, the current lair is abandoned, and the pack moves on (under the leading male's guidance). However, when the pack is stationary, having chosen a suitable lair, the tyrgs settle back and form a new pride.
Females, after giving birth to their young, forage out to seek food. The males remain behind, guarding the lair and the young, and proceeding to test the strength and power of the other males, thereby reestablishing or reorganizing the ruling hierarchy. If tyrgs are encountered in their lair (usually a cave or deep hole in the ground), there are ld4 young present (20-70% grown). These fight with the adults to presenre the lair. All others in the lair are adults.

Ecology: It is important to note that the sexes cannot yet be told apart from afar, because of a lack of general knowledge regarding these hounds. Coloration notes or behavioral anecdotes might provide a clue.
Otherwise, tyrgs are straight-forward predatory carnivores. They have no natural enemies, other than monsters even nastier and hungrier than they are, and have no natural allies. Even related species, like wild dogs and tigers, are dealt with on a case-by-case basis, meaning that sometimes they are greeted, sometimes they are attacked. Again, no obvious behavioral patterns have been observed.


here are some preliminary stats for the tyrg:

*Tyrg*
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d12+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d12+X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Howl, rake
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, scent
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 6 Wis X Chr X
Skills: Move Silently (+ bonus) – 8 total
Feats: 2 (alertness?)

Environment: Any mountains, hills, and forest
Organization: Pack (1-10) or pride (includes young)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT



Originally found in module WG5 - Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure (1984, Robert J. Kuntz and Gary Gygax), and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


----------



## Shade (Nov 4, 2003)

I added some ideas to your stat block, BOZ.

Tyrg
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+7
Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d12+2)
Full Attack: Bite +7 melee (1d12+2) and 2 claws +2 melee (1d6+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Howl, rake (1d6+1)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4 Ref +4 Will +1
Abilities: Str 15 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 6 Wis 12 Chr 6
Skills: Hide +X, Listen +X, Move Silently (+ bonus), Spot +X – 8 total
Feats: Alertness, 1 more

Environment: Any mountains, hills, and forest
Organization: Pack (1-10) or pride (includes young)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X

I based the ability scores on downsizing a tiger from Large to Medium, and then factoring in the relevant dog traits.


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## BOZ (Nov 4, 2003)

cool


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## Leopold (Nov 4, 2003)

things gonna be a cohort for sure.


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## BOZ (Nov 5, 2003)

probably the most likely candidate that we've done so far, yes


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## Leopold (Nov 5, 2003)

i'm waiting till your done with the critter and posting it in your other threads in homebrews before i do ECL and discuss it.


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## BOZ (Nov 12, 2003)

*Tyrg*
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10+10 (37 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+8
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d12+3)
Full Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d12+3) and 2 claws +3 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Howl, rake 1d4+3
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +4 Ref +4 Will +1
Abilities: Str 16 Dex 17 Con 15 Int 6 Wis 12 Chr 10
Skills: Hide +, Listen +, Move Silently + (+6 bonus), Spot + – 8 total
Feats: Alertness plus 1 more

Environment: Any mountains, hills, and forest
Organization: Pair, pack (3-5) or pride (6-12 plus 1-4 young)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic neutral
Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X

I took shade’s numbers and bumped the Str by +1 (compared tigers and dire wolves, dire wolves had Str 25 so I averaged them – also bumped Cha due to dire wolves’ higher score).

There are also skills and feats to consider of course:
Dire wolves have Hide +0, Listen +7, Move Silently +4, Spot +7, Survival +2 (+4 when tracking by scent) (racial bonus of +2 to Hide, Listen, Move Silently, and Spot); Alertness, Run, Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite)
Tigers have Balance +6, Hide +3 (+8 racial bonus in tall grass or heavy undergrowth), Listen +3, Move Silently +9, Spot +3, Swim +11 (racial bonus of +4 to Balance, Hide, and Move Silently); Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved Natural Attack (claw)


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2003)

Ok, while I’m on the tyrg, how about looking at its capabilities:

1e module WG5 (Modenkainen’s Fantastic Adventure)


			
				WG5 said:
			
		

> When they engage prey in melee, they emit fierce howls which will serve to mildly stun the victims engaged (-1 penalty to initiative, -2 penalty to hit) for the following three rounds. The effects of this stunning are not cumulative, and only after the first three rounds of stunning have worn off can those affected be stunned once again.




1e Monstrous Compendium 5 (Greyhawk)


			
				mc5 said:
			
		

> When tyrgs engage prey in melee, they emit fierce howls that serve to mildly stun their victims ( +2 penalty to initiative, -2 penalty to attack rolls) for the following three rounds. There is no saving throw for these howls. Note that the effects of this stunning are not cumulative, and only after the first three rounds of stunning have worn off can those affected be stunned again.




and



			
				both sources said:
			
		

> Tyrgs can move silently 75 % of the time and are surprised only on a roll of 1 due to their superior senses.




and



			
				mc5 said:
			
		

> If an opponent is overborne, or otherwise finds himself prone on the ground, the tyrg's raking forepaws can inflict ld4 points each on the already besieged victim.




do you think we should give it the old pounce/improved grab/rake routine?  Should it have a trip attack too for being canine-like?


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2003)

I'd make their howl ability leave the opponent shaken on a failed save.

I vote that we give it pounce/improved grab/rake and trip.  That sounds like fun.     

For skills, I'd go with Listen +2, Move Silently +3, and Spot +3, and then give it a racial bonus to Hide, Listen, Move Silently and Spot.

For the remaining feat, I'm thinking Improved Initiative or Improved Natural Attack.


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## BOZ (Nov 13, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> I vote that we give it pounce/improved grab/rake and trip.  That sounds like fun.




yer evil.


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## Leopold (Nov 13, 2003)

use the same type of howl that the howler uses from the SRD.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2003)

nahh... i like shaken (not stirred) better.  MC5 says no saving throw, and WG5 doesn't even mention a save.  should we keep it a no-save effect?  those immune to mind-affecting effects would be safe.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2003)

how's dat?  

Howl (Su?): A tyrg can emit a fierce howl, once per round as a free action, that causes all beings that hear it to be shaken for three rounds.  The effects of the howl are not cumulative.  The victim cannot be affected by the howl again until the effects of the last howl have worn off.  (if we use a saving throw - The save DC is Charisma-based.)  This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.

Edit: posted a tyrg in homebrews, look it over.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how's dat?
> 
> Howl (Su?): A tyrg can emit a fierce howl, once per round as a free action, that causes all beings that hear it to be shaken for three rounds.  The effects of the howl are not cumulative.  The victim cannot be affected by the howl again until the effects of the last howl have worn off.  (if we use a saving throw - The save DC is Charisma-based.)  This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.
> 
> Edit: posted a tyrg in homebrews, look it over.




I like it.   I'd vote for a save, or at least a HD limit.  I can't really picture a 15th-level fighter being afraid of its howl, yet saving against the frightful presence of a dragon.    

As for the remaining Xs, here are a few suggestions:

Weight 450-650 lbs. (I figure its canine traits make it slightly heavier than a normal tiger)
Rake +8 melee
Trip +8 check modifier

Remaining feat:  Improved Initiative?

CR 4?  Tiger has CR 4, but has 1 more HD and thus 1 more feat.  Tyrg has howl and trip, which would seem comparable.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2003)

i'm in favor of level limit.    it's not a crippling attack, so no save might be a-ok.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm in favor of level limit.    it's not a crippling attack, so no save might be a-ok.




Should the limit be any creature with HD no greater than the tyrg's HD?


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2003)

at least.  maybe higher?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2003)

Double its HD?


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2003)

10 HD works just fine.    will post an updated version in a moment - let me know if there's anything that needs doing with it!


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2003)

so how ya like me now?


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2003)

That is one badass cat-dog!    

He still needs one feat (I'm still pulling for Improved Initiative) and a LA.


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## BOZ (Nov 14, 2003)

i'll leave the LA up to leo.  

for feats, i'm going with Alertness, Track (B), Weapon Focus (bite)


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## BOZ (Nov 15, 2003)

NEXT!  

Hetfish
FREQUENCY Uncommon
ARMORCLASS: 5
%INLAIR: 70%
TREASURE TYPE: Q (x3)
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGEIATTACK: 1 per fish
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: S (1-3 ft. long)
PSIONIC ABILITY Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: (1 HD) 1/14 +  l/hp;
NO. APPEARING: 20-70
HITDICE: 1-3
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/nil
(3 HD) 11/50 + 31hp

Hetfish are found in both fresh and salt water, and in any clime from arctic to boiling hot springs. These fish have super-heated bodies (350 degrees Fahrenheit), which can actually bum objects touched. Their sizes range from 1-3 ft. long, and each attacks as a 1-3 hit die monster. Length determines attack probability. Their great maneuverability and speed in the water account for their armor class rating and attack capability. These fish are attracted by motion in the water. When their “den” is disturbed, they swarm en masse to meet the intruder. Their mode of attack is to bump or ram their intended targets, inflicting 1 point of heat damage per touch per fish. Hetfish have been known to continue these swarming attacks indefinitely. A victim may be “boiled alive” due to the proximity of great numbers of these fish heating the water nearby. Hetfish have been known to ram small ships and other waterborne vessels. Wooden ships sustain 1 point of structural damage per 30 small (1 ft.), 20 medium (2 ft.) or 10 large (3 ft.) hetfish attacking.
These fish have been known to bring a good price (10-100 gp each, depending on their size and condition) when captured alive and sold to men of wisdom (sages, alchemists, certain priests and mages, et a].), as these scholars have yet to learn about this fish’s strange properties, which resemble the fire-breathing dragon or the remorhaz.

Description
General coloring of the hetfish is silver and orange. Many small bumps and unnatural-looking skin boils can be seen covering their bodies. They otherwise resemble pirahna, though they have no teeth of note.


MCA2:

Hetfish
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any water
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Den
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5)
TREASURE: Nil (Qx3)
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 20-70
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: sw 12
HIT DICE: 1-3
THACO: 1-2 HD: 19
3 HD: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Heat
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (1'-3' long)
MORALE: Unsteady (7)
XP VALUE: Varies

Hetfish
The hetfish, or hotfish as some sailors know it, is another wonder of the undersea world. It is a small (one to three feet long) silver-and-orange fish, whose skin is covered by unseemly bumps and boils. It is found in both fresh and salt water, from arctic climes to boiling hot springs. Its basic body shape resembles that of a piranha, although it has neither the piranha's teeth nor its distinctive underbite.

Combat: Hetfish have super-heated bodies whose temperatures exceed 350 degrees Fahrenheit. This effectively turns the water within several inches of them to steam.
When their den is disturbed, these fish swarm en masse to meet the intruder. Each hetfish has as many Hit Dice as feet in length (one to three), and the entire den bumps or rams the intruders, doing 1 point of damage per fish. Hetfish have been known to continue these attacks indefinitely, long after the target has been boiled to bone.
Even if a victim cannot be touched directly, he can be injured by merely remaining in the vicinity of hetfish for too long. Every round a creature swims within 20 feet of a den of hetfish, it suffers 2 points of damage from the hot water. 
Hetfish are possessed of a simple intelligence; they are attracted to bright, shiny things, particularly gemstones. A hetfish coral den, when broken open, contains one gemstone for each fish, with a base value of 10 gp. Some hetfish communities have learned that ships often carry such pretty things, and they try to ram ships and sink them for treasure. Wooden ships sustain 1 point of hull damage per 15 Hit Dice of hetfish attacking, per round.

Habitat/Society: Hetfish live in large communal dens. They are about as intelligent as bright dogs, or particularly dull polls. They have nothing resembling a language. They seem content to swim about and patrol a territory that is 50 feet in radius per hetfish in the den. Any creature entering this area is considered fair prey by the fish, regardless of its size or ferocity There are very few creatures that can endure 30-40 points of damage each round, and thus there are very few creatures that live in the hetfish's territory.

Ecology: It seems that the hetfish requires a steam environment for respiration, as it is unable to breathe water. How it continues to buoy itself up in the water is just one of the hetfish's mysteries. However, because of its heat-producing powers, the hetfish's greatest threats are civilized races. Underwater races, such as the tritons, hunt hetfish ruthlessly,
as the super-heated fish are an environmental hazard in any but the hottest natural springs. Surface dwellers hunt hetfish as well, not merely for the gemstones the fish collect or to guard against hetfish sinking more boats. Alive, the animals are worth 10d10 gp apiece to alchemists and sages, for no one has yet learned the secret of the hetfish's strange properties, which resemble those of the remorhaz.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

Do we want to this critter as a swarm, considering it appears in groups of 30-70?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

i was considering that.  let me have another look at the abilities and see how that works out.

do we have a precedent for aquatic swarms yet?


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i was considering that.  let me have another look at the abilities and see how that works out.
> 
> do we have a precedent for aquatic swarms yet?




Yes, the bloodbloater ooze in the Fiend Folio is an aquatic swarm.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

thanks, i'll look that up.


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## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

ok, yes, i've decided to go with a swarm.  

here are some preliminary stats for the hetfish:

*Hetfish*
Tiny Magical Beast (Aquatic, Swarm)
Hit Dice: Xd10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: Swim 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/---
Attack: Swam (0 plus heat)
Full Attack: Swarm (0 plus heat)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Distraction, heat
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immune to weapon damage, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 5 Wis X Chr X
Skills: ?
Feats: ?

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or school (X swarms)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: +X



COMBAT



Originally found in module WG5 - Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure (1984, Robert J. Kuntz and Gary Gygax), and Monstrous Compendium Annual Two (1995).


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

The Hit Dice is a challenge.   Each individual hetfish has 1-3 HD.   I tried to compare it to individual animals in the MM and their associated swarms to get an idea:

Tiny Viper:  1/4d8...Swarm 5 HD
Rat:  1/4d8...Swarm 4 HD
Bat:  1/4d8...Swarm 3 HD

Obviously, there is no correlation.    

The cranium rats, which are magical beasts like the hetfish, have 6 HD for a single swarm.   The highest HD for magical beast swarms is the death raven at 18 HD.

So I guess we just have to pick a HD and go with it.  I'd vote for the 7-9 HD range, so it is superior to just plain animal swarms, but still within the realm of realism that a single hetfish could be caught by a fisherman.  Any thoughts?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 17, 2003)

i'd go higher.  maybe 9-12 even.


----------



## Shade (Nov 17, 2003)

Being a fan of primarily high-level monsters, you won't have to twist my arm.   Let's go with 12 HD.


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2003)

don't forget, you've got a mix of 1-3 HD creatures in there... those 3HD monsters are also 3-feet long, so techincally they should be Small... but there is no rule for Small swarms.    so giving it a 12 HD would help make up for that, i think.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2003)

Good point.   Here's a modified stat block based on 12 HD:

Hetfish
Tiny Magical Beast (Aquatic, Swarm)
Hit Dice: 12d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: Swim 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +X Dex), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/---
Attack: Swam (3d6 plus heat)
Full Attack: Swarm (3d6 plus heat)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: Distraction, heat
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immune to weapon damage, low-light vision, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +8 Ref +8 Will +4
Abilities: Str X Dex X Con X Int 5 Wis X Chr X
Skills: 105 total
Feats: 5 total

Environment: Any aquatic
Organization: Solitary or school (X swarms)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ?
Level Adjustment: +X

A 12 HD swarm should do 3d6 damage according to the table in the swarm entry.  We could make it simply do 3d6 fire damage and no physical, or 3d6 physical plus additional fire damage.  I added low-light vision since magical beasts get it.  

I figure it should have decent Dex, based on the descriptive text.   For feats, perhaps Improved Sunder?


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Skills: 105 total




 do you mean 15?  



> A 12 HD swarm should do 3d6 damage according to the table in the swarm entry.  We could make it simply do 3d6 fire damage and no physical, or 3d6 physical plus additional fire damage.  I added low-light vision since magical beasts get it.




i don't think the swarm attack itself should cause any damage.  in the description, all of their damage is from heat/fire.  despite their speed, no damage appears to come from a slam or charge sort of attack, and they have no teeth for a bite attack.

since it mentions the remorhaz in the description, we should probably loosely base the heat attack on that monster's heat attack.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> do you mean 15?




Oops...an extra zero snuck in there!    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't think the swarm attack itself should cause any damage.  in the description, all of their damage is from heat/fire.  despite their speed, no damage appears to come from a slam or charge sort of attack, and they have no teeth for a bite attack.
> 
> since it mentions the remorhaz in the description, we should probably loosely base the heat attack on that monster's heat attack.




Are you sure I can't convince you.  I'm just afraid that the swarm will be useless once fire protection is brought into play.  Even a lowly swarm of Diminutive spiders does 1d6 swarm damage per round, as does a swarm of bats.  I'd figure a swarm of one to three-foot fish slamming into you should at least hurt as much as that.    

Here's the remorhaz's heat attack for reference:

Heat (Ex): An enraged remorhaz generates heat so intense that anything touching its body takes 8d6 points of fire damage. Creatures striking a remorhaz with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, but creatures striking with melee weapons do not take damage from the remorhaz’s heat. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a remorhaz is allowed a DC 18 Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2003)

i guess we could give them a 1d6, but i'm not particularly comfortable with that.  and yes, fire protection would make these creatures no real threat to you (even with the 1d6, assuming you've got higher HD to have fire protection in the first place) but these are not the type of monster you would send against people who have that kind of protection are they?


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## BOZ (Nov 18, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> Heat (Ex): An enraged remorhaz generates heat so intense that anything touching its body takes 8d6 points of fire damage. Creatures striking a remorhaz with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, but creatures striking with melee weapons do not take damage from the remorhaz’s heat. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a remorhaz is allowed a DC 18 Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based.




let's see here...

WG5:


> These fish have super-heated bodies (350 degrees Fahrenheit), which can actually bum objects touched. ... These fish are attracted by motion in the water. When their “den” is disturbed, they swarm en masse to meet the intruder. Their mode of attack is to bump or ram their intended targets, inflicting 1 point of heat damage per touch per fish. Hetfish have been known to continue these swarming attacks indefinitely. A victim may be “boiled alive” due to the proximity of great numbers of these fish heating the water nearby. Hetfish have been known to ram small ships and other waterborne vessels. Wooden ships sustain 1 point of structural damage per 30 small (1 ft.), 20 medium (2 ft.) or 10 large (3 ft.) hetfish attacking.




MCA2:


> Hetfish have super-heated bodies whose temperatures exceed 350 degrees Fahrenheit. This effectively turns the water within several inches of them to steam.
> When their den is disturbed, these fish swarm en masse to meet the intruder. Each hetfish has as many Hit Dice as feet in length (one to three), and the entire den bumps or rams the intruders, doing 1 point of damage per fish. Hetfish have been known to continue these attacks indefinitely, long after the target has been boiled to bone.
> Even if a victim cannot be touched directly, he can be injured by merely remaining in the vicinity of hetfish for too long. Every round a creature swims within 20 feet of a den of hetfish, it suffers 2 points of damage from the hot water.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2003)

We'll have to keep this in mind for their structural damage:

"Electricity and *fire* attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness."


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## BOZ (Nov 19, 2003)

i'll try to get to this guy today...


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

how aboot this?

Heat (Ex): A hetfish generates heat so intense that anything within a swarm takes X points of fire damage. Creatures striking a hetfish swarm with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, as well as any creature trying to touch a hetfish. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a hetfish swarm is allowed a DC X Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based. 
Likewise, the heat generated by a hetfish swarm is so intense that it causes the water nearby to boil and scald creatures.  Anything within 20 feet of a hetfish swarm suffers X points of fire damage per round.


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

here's a very telling line: "There are very few creatures that can endure 30-40 points of damage each round, and thus there are very few creatures that live in the hetfish's territory."


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2003)

So do we want to have it deal 1d10+30 fire damage?


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

not necessarily, but that makes a good indicator.  i think what we need to do is figure out how much damage comes from being in a hetfish sqaure, and how much damage comes from being in the 20 radius.


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2003)

Well, if we stick with the swarm standard damage, 3d6 would be the amount for a swarm of this HD.  However, if we gave it the superior swarm quality (like the scarab beetle swarm), it would do 5d6 damage.    

On the other hand, we can just ignore the "swarm standard" altogether, since this is heat damage and not true swarm damage.

Since the remorhaz is Huge, and a Swarm is basically Large, I don't think the hetfish swarm should exceed the 8d6 damage of the remorhaz.  Perhaps 5d6 would be reasonable for being in its square, and 2d6 for being in the 20 foot radius?


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## BOZ (Nov 20, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> On the other hand, we can just ignore the "swarm standard" altogether, since this is heat damage and not true swarm damage.




yes.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

posted a version in homebrews, check it out.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

The base saves for a 12 HD magical beast are Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +4.

For stats, I'd recommend the following:

Str 2 Dex 19 Con 14 Int 5 Wis 14 Chr 4

The Dex 19 is derived from another agile swarm, the centipede swarm.
The other physical stats I based off the cranium rat swarm, which would seem to be about the closest sized magical beast swarm.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

sounds good to me.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

Based on those ability scores, here are some updates:

Hit Dice: 12d10+24 (90 hp)
Initiative: +4
Armor Class: 16 (+2 size, +4 Dex), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Saves: Fort +8 Ref +12 Will +6
Abilities: Str 2 Dex 19 Con 14 Int 5 Wis 14 Chr 4


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

let's get to finishing these fishy fishy fish up:

Skills: Listen, Spot, and Swim should do.

Feats, maybe: Alertness and Improved Initiative are good staples for feats, and fit these monsters well.  Lightning Reflexes also makes sense.  For the rest, maybe an Ability or Skill focus, perhaps Iron Will or Endurance?


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

Agreed on the skills.   They get a +8 to swim checks due to swim speed, of course.

I like Ability Focus (heat), Alertness, Endurance, Improved Initiative, and Lightning Reflexes.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

but wait, doesn't the heat damage have no saving throw?  would ability focus still work?


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> but wait, doesn't the heat damage have no saving throw?  would ability focus still work?




It would work for the weapon melting portion of the ability (as you have it in Homebrews right now).   If you don't think that is enough to warrant the feat, go ahead and swap it out for another.

I just figured it would help it melt those annoying fishing hooks that keep hitting it.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

well, lacking a better idea of what to replace it with, i might just leave it.  

updated the stats, check out the numbers and everything for me.


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2003)

I believe you still have 2 skill ranks left to spend (15 total, right?)

Listen +7 (3 ranks, +2 Wis, +2 Alertness), Spot +7 (3 ranks, +2 Wis, +2 Alertness), Swim +11 (7 ranks, -4 Str, +8 racial)

Otherwise, it looks ready to publish.


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## BOZ (Nov 21, 2003)

yeah, i goofed that one.  i gave it +1 mod for wisdom instead of +2


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

Bump.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

requests?


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> requests?




Pasha of the Efreet, unless it would better fit into the epic-level thread.  Otherwise, Awtawmatawyn, as the name intrigues me.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

most likely epic level for the pasha, yes.  (i'll have a better look later.)  there are only 6, and they seem fairly tough.

as for the "Awtawmatawyn", say it slowly with me...  Aw-taw-ma-tawn.   *groan*


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## Shade (Dec 1, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> most likely epic level for the pasha, yes.  (i'll have a better look later.)  there are only 6, and they seem fairly tough.
> 
> as for the "Awtawmatawyn", say it slowly with me...  Aw-taw-ma-tawn.   *groan*




I got as far as Aw-taw and had to start over.


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## BOZ (Dec 1, 2003)

Automaton.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Automaton.




I just now got it.


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## BOZ (Dec 13, 2003)

ok, here's a new one for this thread.  dug this odd feller up, not sure what to do with it.  whee!!  

Ba'atun

FREQUENCY: Very Rare 
NO. APPEARING: 8-64 plus leaders 
ARMOUR CLASS: 4 
MOVE: 9"/21" (MC:C) 
HIT DICE: 2+1/variable 
%IN LAIR: 10% 
TREASURE TYPE: E, Q (x5) 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-4/1-4 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below 
SPECIAL DEFENCES: See below 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard 
INTELLIGENCE: Average to genius 
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Evil 
SIZE: M (519" tall) 
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/defense modes: Nil 
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: Variable

History: From where the ba'atun first came no one is sure. Some claimed they were demons made from snow, while others thought they were exiles, banished from a frozen parallel world. What little is known to a few erudite sages, is that several millenia ago they arrived in the Cloudscape Mountains with their constant companions - death and destruction. For a brief period it looked as though the mountains and surrounding lands would fall to their onslaught. An alliance between the aarakocra, the cloud giants and the arch-mage Devral halted the ba'atun attacks and succeeded in imprisoning their leader Yesorkh Pahyeh (see From the Dark Past - page 2). During the following centuries the days of the ba'atun terror were forgotten. Now they have returned, and are once again preparing to spread their evil.

Appearance: Ba'atun have large white, bat-like wings. Their fur is an icy blue colour and they have red rumps. Facially, ba'atun resemble baboons with long snouts and sharp fanged teeth set in red maws. Their eyes are bright blue and red rimmed. The ba'atun have their own language and are not normally able to speak anything else (alignment tongue excepted).

Attacks: Ba'atun bite with their sharp vicious teeth (1-6) and rend with their dirty claws (1-4/1-4). They are not able to attack more than one target per round. When attacking, ba'atun emit a loud piercing and chilling screech which affects all creatures within 60 feet. Creatures hearing the screech must save vs. Spells at +4 or be struck by fear and unable to take any offensive actions for I round. Each round that the screeching lasts, characters must make a successful saving throw (before initiative is determined) to be able to act. Only one saving throw per round is required, no matter how many ba'atun there are.

Ba'atun make all saving throws vs. cold attacks at +2, and take either half or no damage from such attacks. They are allowed a saving throw against ice storm spells, with success resulting in half damage. Against fire attacks, ba'atun have a penalty of -2 to saying throws.

Organisation: Ba'atun are organised into squads of 8, each led by a 3 hit dice wing sergeant. Two squads form a flight (led by a flight leader), and two flights make up a swarm (led by a swarm leader).

Flight leaders have an armour class of 3, and 5 hit dice. A flight leader's strength and skill gives him a +1 bonus to damage on all attacks. A flight leader carries a sling and three web stones, which, upon hitting a creature or surface, create small sticky webs in a five-foot-diameter area (similar to a web spell, see PHB p72, but needing no anchor points, duration 3 turns). Once per day, a flight leader can fire shards of ice from his hand, at a creature up to 5" away. The shards cause 2d8 points of damage (make a saving throw vs. Breath for half damage).

Swarm leaders have 7 hit dice, armour class 1, and a +2 bonus on to hit and damage rolls. A swarm leader usually carries 1-3 ice javelins, which are considered to be +2 weapons for purposes of creatures hit only by magical weapons, and which do 1d6 points of damage against small creatures and 1d8 against large. In addition, a successful hit causes the weapon to explode in a volley of icy splinters which inflict an extra 2d8 points of damage to all within 10 feet of the blast (make a saving throw vs. Breath for half damage; creatures wearing magical armour take half or no damage).

As well as being able to fire shards of ice from their hands (cf. flight leaders), swarm leaders have the ability, once per day, to create a ray of cold. The ray is a cone 50 feet long and 20 wide at the base, and causes 3d8 points of damage to all creatures within it. A successful saving throw vs. Breath results in half damage.

Ba'atun clerics: A ba'atun lair will usually have a temple where bloody rites are celebrated regularly by a ba'atun high priest. The high priest has the abilities of a 7th level cleric and can create a ray of cold and ice shards once per day (see above). In addition to the high priest, there will be a 4th level priest and 2-5 2nd level acolytes (2+1 HD). Ba'atun clerics shave their heads, exposing the pink skin beneath. They also colour their bodies with blood-red ochre to intimidate their enemies.

SUMMARY OF BA'ATUN ATTACKS


________________________________________________ICE SHARDS_________COLD RAY_______WEB STONES_______ICE JAVELIN
TYPE_____________THAC0__DAMAGE____________AC__(Range/AofE/Dmg)_(Cone size/Dmg) (Range/AofE/Drtn)__(Range/Dmg)
normal ba'atun___16_____1d6/1d4/1d4________4_______---______________---______________---______________---
wing sergeant____16_____1d6/1d4/1d4________4_______---______________---______________---______________---
flight leader____15_____1d6+1/1d4+1/1d4+1__3__5"/5 feet/2d8_________---_______16'/5'diam./3 turns_____---
swarm leader_____11_____1d6+2/1d4+2/1d4+2__1__5”/5 feet/2d8____50' x 20'/3d8_________---___________6"/ld6+2d8
_________________________________________________________________________________________________(ice splinters)


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2003)

Here's how I'd do it:

*Ba'atun*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 2d8+0 (0 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
AC: 16 (+X Dex, +X natural) touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X) and 2 claws +X melee (1d4+X) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Screech
Special Qualities: Cold immunity, darkvision 60 ft., vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: (8+Int mod)x5
Feats: 1
Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard(?)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: X

-------------------------

*Ba'atun, Wing Sergeant*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 3d8+0 (0 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
AC: 16 (+X Dex, +X natural) touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X) and 2 claws +X melee (1d4+X) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Screech
Special Qualities: Cold immunity, darkvision 60 ft., vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: (8+Int mod)x8
Feats: 2
Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard(?)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: X

-------------------------

*Ba'atun, Flight Leader*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 5d8+0 (0 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
AC: 17 (+X Dex, +X natural) touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X) or sling +X ranged (1d4+X)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X) and 2 claws +X melee (1d4+X) or sling +X ranged (1d4+X) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Ice shards, screech, web stones
Special Qualities: Cold immunity, darkvision 60 ft., vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 14, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: (8+Int mod)x8
Feats: 2
Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard(?)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: X

-------------------------

*Ba'atun, Swarm Leader*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 7d8+0 (0 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), fly 60 ft. (average)
AC: 19 (+X Dex, +X natural) touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+X
Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X) or ice javelin +X ranged (1d6+X plus ice splinters)
Full Attack: Bite +X melee (1d6+X) and 2 claws +X melee (1d4+X) or ice 
javelin +X ranged (1d6+X plus ice splinters)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Cold ray, ice shards, screech
Special Qualities: Cold immunity, darkvision 60 ft., vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 16, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: (8+Int mod)x10
Feats: 3
Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard(?)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: X

To account for the "to hit" and damage bonuses for the leaders, we could either give them appropriate Str (12-13 for flight leaders, 14-15 for swarm leaders) or Weapon Focus/Weapon Specialization as bonus feats.   I'd vote for the latter, as the Str would leave the normal and sergeants rather weak.


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## BOZ (Dec 16, 2003)

you're thinking outsider?

and do we need all the statblocks?  i think that might be overdoing it...

i'll look more at this one later


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you're thinking outsider?




Yep.  I chose to go with the latter option of this passage:

"From where the ba'atun first came no one is sure. Some claimed they were demons made from snow, while others thought they were exiles, banished from a frozen parallel world."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and do we need all the statblocks?  i think that might be overdoing it...




That seems to be the standard for monsters with different abilities at different HD levels.  See elementals, tojanida, salamanders, arrowhawks, varrangoin...

Plus, it is easier for someone to use a swarm leader "on the fly", without having to adjust all the relevant stats for increased HD and so on.


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## BOZ (Dec 17, 2003)

ok, we'll work on the ordinary ba'atun first, then the heirarchy afterwards.  

and outsider (native) is ok by me.  more later...


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ok, we'll work on the ordinary ba'atun first, then the heirarchy afterwards.
> 
> and outsider (native) is ok by me.  more later...




Sounds good!


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## BOZ (Dec 27, 2003)

I think the best way to work these guys out is to start at the bottom, with the weakest variety, and work up from there.  I gave these guys the same Str, Dex, and Con as baboons, +1.

*Ba’atun*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 60 ft (average)
AC: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +0 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Screech
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, resistance to cold 5, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: 40 (Climb, Hide, Intimidate, Listen, Spot?)
Feats: 1 (Flyby attack, ability focus screech?)

Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: X

_This creature has a baboon-like appearance, with a long snout and sharp fangs set in its red maw.  Its bright blue eyes are red-rimmed.  Its fur is an icy blue color, and it has a hairless monkey-like red rump.  What makes it clear that this is no ordinary primate is its set of large, white, bat wings._

Ba’atun are slightly less than 6 feet tall, and weigh about X pounds.

COMBAT
A group of ba’atun will usually begin a combat by screeching.

Screech (Su): Ba'atun can emit a loud, piercing and chilling screech as a free action.  All creatures within 60 feet of the ba’atun must make a successful Will save (DC X) or be struck by fear and be cowering for one full round.  Each round that the screeching lasts, victims must make another successful saving throw at the beginning of initiative to be able to act. Only one saving throw per round is required, no matter how many ba'atun there are.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Originally found in module UK7 – Dark Clouds Gather (1985, Jim Bambra and Phil Gallagher).


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## Shade (Dec 27, 2003)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I think the best way to work these guys out is to start at the bottom, with the weakest variety, and work up from there.  I gave these guys the same Str, Dex, and Con as baboons, +1.




Nice call on the physical stats.

For the screech, why not simplify it to those that fail their saves are panicked?

Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. _If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack_, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Ability Focus (screech) would probably be a good choice, since they seem to really rely on the screech attack.

Another idea...

Ba’atun Characters
Many groups of ba'atun include clerics. A ba'atun cleric has access to two of the following domains: Death, Destruction, Law, or Water.

(I picked Water because it is the ony core domain to include cone of cold and ice storm, which were the closest core domain spells to emulate the high priest's "ray of cold and ice shards").


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## BOZ (Dec 28, 2003)

Shade said:
			
		

> For the screech, why not simplify it to those that fail their saves are panicked?




because the foes weren't meant to run.  i chose Cowering instead (DMG p 300), as it is essentially the same as shaken, but is a fear effect and doesn't require the affected to drop their weapons.  i thought that was the most appropriate effect.


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## Shade (Dec 29, 2003)

Ahh, nice.  I didn't catch that cowering was in the condition summary, probably because it wasn't listed as part of the "fear tree" (skaken-frightened-panicked).   Cowering is definitely more appropriate.  Good catch.


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## BOZ (Dec 31, 2003)

here are some updated stat blocks:

*Ba’atun*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 25 ft (5 squares), fly 60 ft (average)
AC: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+5
Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +0 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Screech
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, resistance to cold 5, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 13, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +7, Hide +9, Intimidate +9, Listen +7, Spot +7, Tumble +8
Feats: Ability Focus (screech) (B), Flyby Attack

Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X


*Ba'atun, Wing Sergeant*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 3d8+6 (19 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), fly 60 ft (average)
AC: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural) touch 12, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+6
Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (1d6+3) and 2 claws +1 melee (1d4+1)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Screech
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, resistance to cold 5, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +4
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 14
Skills: 54
Feats: 2

Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

-------------------------

*Ba'atun, Flight Leader*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 5d8+0 (0 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), fly 60 ft (average)
AC: 17 (+3 Dex, +4 natural) touch 13, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+9
Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d6+4) or sling +8 ranged (1d4+4?)
Full Attack: Bite +9 melee (1d6+4) and 2 claws +4 melee (1d4+2) or sling +8 ranged (1d4+4?)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Ice shards, screech, web stones
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, resistance to cold 5, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +7
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 16
Skills: 80
Feats: 2

Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X

-------------------------

*Ba'atun, Swarm Leader*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 (66 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), fly 60 ft (average)
AC: 19 (+4 Dex, +5 natural) touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+12
Attack: Bite +12 melee (1d6+5) or ice javelin +11 ranged (1d6+5 plus ice splinters)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (1d6+5) and 2 claws +7 melee (1d4+2) or ice 
javelin +11 ranged (1d6+5 plus ice splinters)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Cold ray, ice shards, screech
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, resistance to cold 5, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 19
Skills: 120
Feats: 3

Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, squad (8 plus 1 wing sergeant), flight (16 plus 2 wing sergeants, plus flight leader), or swarm (32 plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X


----------



## Shade (Dec 31, 2003)

Cool..something to look at.   I'm bored at work, so I'll see what I can come up with on these guys.

BOZ - did you get a chance to look at this thread?
http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=73170

I've been gathering info this afternoon.  If you're interested, I could post some prelims to work on.


----------



## Shade (Dec 31, 2003)

Suggested Feats:
Wing Sergeant - Ability Focus (screech) (B), Flyby Attack, Weapon Focus (bite or claw)
Flight Leader - Ability Focus (screech) (B), Flyby Attack, Precise Shot
Swarm Leader - Ability Focus (screech) (B), Flyby Attack, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Suggested Skill Ranks:
Wing Sergeant - Climb (6), Hide (6), Intimidate (6), Listen (6), Move Silently (6), Search (6), Spot (6), Tumble (6), Surival (6)
Flight Leader - Bluff (8), Climb (8), Hide (8), Intimidate (8), Listen (8), Move Silently (8), Search (8), Spot (8), Tumble (8), Surival (8)
Swarm Leader - Bluff (12), Climb (12), Hide (12), Intimidate (12), Listen (12), Move Silently (12), Search (12), Spot (12), Tumble (12), Surival (12)

Bluff could be replaced by Knowledge (the planes) or Escape Artist for the leaders.

Suggest CR:
Wing Sergeant - 2
Flight Leader - 3
Swarm Leader - 5


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## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

here's a section from the module that i missed - want to convert her too?


Yesorkh Pahyeh

The ba'atun leader Yesorkh Pahyeh, is an "albino" with a black colouration. She is a 9th level magic user who has the power of possession once per week (cf. magic jar spell - PHB p81). Using this power, Yesorkh is able to possess the body of any creature within 1" which fails its saving throw vs. Spells (wisdom bonuses apply).

Yesorkh is able to cast spells as long as the possessed creature has a humanoid form. Any special abilities of the possessed creature are usable by Yesorkh. She cannot call upon the exact memories of the creature, though certain things will be known to her.

Any affected creature remains possessed until Yesorkh returns to her own body or possesses another creature. When returning to her own body, Yesorkh's life-essence can be seen in the form of a shadow-like figure which moves at 48" (even through solid matter) and cannot be harmed. Yesorkh can he driven from her victim by an exorcism spell or by the casting of a remove curse spell by a cleric of 8th level or higher.

When abandoned by Yesorkh, her victim will collapse in a state of shock for 1-10 turns.

While Possessing Lachlan (cloud giant):

AC 2; MV 15"; HD 12+7; hp 74; #AT 1; D 6-36; SA/SD hurl boulders for 2-24, only surprised on a 1, levitate; Int Genius; AL LE; Size L (19'); xp 4000 (for driving Yesorkh from Lachlan's body); THACO 9; MM(44).

Clothing/protection: Robes; jewelled headband (value - 10000 gp) with matching earrings (value - 6000 gp the pair).

Spells Memorised
(C=casting time, R= range, D= duration)

First level: charm person (C Is; R 12"), magic missile x2 (C Is; R 15"), ventriloquism (C 1s; R 6"; D 11 r)

Second level: darkness 15' radius (C 2s; R 9"; D 19r), invisibility (C 2s; D Special), mirror image (C 2s; D 18r)

Third level: haste (C 3s; R 6"; D 12r), lightning bolt (C 3s; R 13"), protection from normal missiles (C 3s; D 9t)

Fourth level: dimension door (C 1s; D Special), minor globe of invulnerability (C 4s; D 9r)

Fifth level: monster summoning III (C 5s; R 5"; D 13r)

Special attacks: ice shards and cold ray (see Ba'atun - Pull-out Sheet II), wall of ice (as 9th level magic user, once per day)

Languages: Ba'atun, common

Note: Yesorkh will leave Lachlan's body when it is reduced to 25 or less hit points.

In Ba'atun Form:

AC -2; MV 12"/24"; HD 9; hp 53; #AT 3; D 3-8/3-6/3-6; SA/SD Spells etc.; Int Genius; AL LE; Size M; xp 2836; THACO 10.

Clothing/protection: cloak of protection +2; amulet of shielding (same as brooch of shielding - 31 charges); ring of fire resistance.

Spells/special attacks/languages: as above.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 2, 2004)

Ice Shards (Su?): These ba’atun can fire shards of ice from their hands, once per day, up to 5 feet away.  These shards cause 2d8 points of cold damage to a single target (Reflex save DC X for half).

Web Stones (Ex?): Ba’atun flight leaders carry special sling stones that create webs, as the spell, upon hitting a creature or surface.  These webs stick to whatever they hit, and everything within a 5-foot-diameter area for 3 minutes, and require no anchor points to stick to.
(Need a note that flight leaders carry 3 of these.)

Cold Ray (Su?): Ba’atun swarm leaders can create a ray of cold, once per day.  The ray is a cone 50 feet long and 20 wide at the base, and causes 3d8 points of cold damage to all creatures within it (Reflex save DC X for half).

Not sure how to write this one up:



> A swarm leader usually carries 1-3 ice javelins, which are considered to be +2 weapons for purposes of creatures hit only by magical weapons, and which do 1d6 points of damage against small creatures and 1d8 against large. In addition, a successful hit causes the weapon to explode in a volley of icy splinters which inflict an extra 2d8 points of damage to all within 10 feet of the blast (make a saving throw vs. Breath for half damage; creatures wearing magical armour take half or no damage).




something to the effect of:

Ice Javelins (Ex?): Ba’atun swarm leaders carry javelins which explode in a volley of icy splinters upon impact.  All creatures within 10 feet of the blast suffer 2d8 points of cold damage (Reflex save DC X for half).  These javelins are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.


----------



## Shade (Jan 2, 2004)

Yes, let's convert Yesorkh Pahyeh.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ice Shards (Su?): These ba’atun can fire shards of ice from their hands, once per day, up to 5 feet away.  These shards cause 2d8 points of cold damage to a single target (Reflex save DC X for half).




Looks good.  I'd go with Su.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Web Stones (Ex?): Ba’atun flight leaders carry special sling stones that create webs, as the spell, upon hitting a creature or surface.  These webs stick to whatever they hit, and everything within a 5-foot-diameter area for 3 minutes, and require no anchor points to stick to.
> (Need a note that flight leaders carry 3 of these.)




Since this is simply a function of their equipment, I don't think an Ex/Su/Sp designator is necessary.   Is there a save DC (the web spell has one)?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Cold Ray (Su?): Ba’atun swarm leaders can create a ray of cold, once per day.  The ray is a cone 50 feet long and 20 wide at the base, and causes 3d8 points of cold damage to all creatures within it (Reflex save DC X for half).




Hmmm...maybe we should rename this ability to Cold Beam or something to avoid confusion with ray attacks.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ice Javelins (Ex?): Ba’atun swarm leaders carry javelins which explode in a volley of icy splinters upon impact.  All creatures within 10 feet of the blast suffer 2d8 points of cold damage (Reflex save DC X for half).  These javelins are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.




I'd once again lose the Ex designator.  Also, I'd add "in addition to dealing javelin damage to any creature struck, all creatures within..."


----------



## BOZ (Jan 8, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yes, let's convert Yesorkh Pahyeh.




ok.  




> The ba'atun leader Yesorkh Pahyeh, is an "albino" with a black colouration. She is a 9th level magic user…




should we just slap 9 levels of wizard (I’d say wizard and not sorcerer) onto a basic ba’atun?  Or onto a swarm leader, since she has the powers of one?



> …who has the power of possession once per week (cf. magic jar spell - PHB p81). Using this power, Yesorkh is able to possess the body of any creature within 1" which fails its saving throw vs. Spells (wisdom bonuses apply).
> 
> Yesorkh is able to cast spells as long as the possessed creature has a humanoid form. Any special abilities of the possessed creature are usable by Yesorkh. She cannot call upon the exact memories of the creature, though certain things will be known to her.
> 
> ...




this is her main attack, works like the magic jar spell.  Could be a spell-like ability, but maybe we want to make it a supernatural power.



> Spells Memorised
> (C=casting time, R= range, D= duration)
> 
> First level: charm person (C Is; R 12"), magic missile x2 (C Is; R 15"), ventriloquism (C 1s; R 6"; D 11 r)
> ...




of course, this will for the basis for her spellbook.  We can fill in as needed.



> Special attacks: ice shards and cold ray (see Ba'atun - Pull-out Sheet II), wall of ice (as 9th level magic user, once per day)




see, I told you!  Also has wall of ice as a spell-like ability?



> Languages: Ba'atun, common
> 
> Note: Yesorkh will leave Lachlan's body when it is reduced to 25 or less hit points.
> 
> ...




more info to work in there somewhere.  more from me tomorrow.  If I get a chance, I’ll look through the module for more info about her and the ba’atun.


----------



## Shade (Jan 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> should we just slap 9 levels of wizard (I’d say wizard and not sorcerer) onto a basic ba’atun?  Or onto a swarm leader, since she has the powers of one?




I'm with you on wizard onto swarm leader.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> this is her main attack, works like the magic jar spell.  Could be a spell-like ability, but maybe we want to make it a supernatural power.




Hmmm...what did we do for the visage?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> of course, this will for the basis for her spellbook.  We can fill in as needed.




Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> see, I told you!  Also has wall of ice as a spell-like ability?




You sure did tell us.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> more info to work in there somewhere.  more from me tomorrow.  If I get a chance, I’ll look through the module for more info about her and the ba’atun.




Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

don't want this thread to collect dust forever...

how's this for a stat block?  

*Ba'atun, Yesorkh Pahyeh*
Medium Outsider (Evil, Lawful, Native)
Hit Dice: 7d8+35 plus 9d4+45 (133 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), fly 60 ft (average)
AC: 19 (+4 Dex, +5 natural) touch 14, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+16 (BAB for 9th-level wizard is +4)
Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d6+5) or ice javelin +15 ranged (1d6+5 plus ice splinters)
Full Attack: Bite +16 melee (1d6+5) and 2 claws +11 melee (1d4+2) or ice 
javelin +15 ranged (1d6+5 plus ice splinters)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: Cold beam, ice shards, possession, screech, spells, wall of ice
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft, resistance to cold 5, vulnerability to fire
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +15
Abilities: Str 20, Dex 19, Con 20, Int 20, Wis 18, Cha 19
Skills: Bluff +13, Climb +13, Escape Artist +11, Hide +14, Intimidate +18, Knowledge (the planes) +12, Listen +16, Move Silently +12, Search +16, Spot +16, Tumble +14, Survival +14 (plus 84 more?)
Feats: Ability Focus (screech) (B), Flyby Attack, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot (PLUS 4 more? Plus scribe scroll and one bonus metamagic)

Environment: Cold mountains
Organization: Solitary, or retinue (32 ba’atun plus 4 wing sergeants plus 2 flight leaders plus 1 swarm leader)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard (plus cloak of protection +2; amulet of shielding (same as brooch of shielding - 31 charges); ring of fire resistance)
Alignment: Always lawful evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +X


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

Looking good so far.    

It looks like the standard for denoting a monster with class levels is (see the sample lich):

Yesorkh Pahyeh, 9th-Level Ba'atun Wizard

Additional Skills:   Definitely maxed-out Spellcraft and Concentration, also Knowlege (arcana).

Feats:  Shouldn't she get 3 more feats, plus one wizard bonus feat and Scribe Scroll?    I'd suggest Empower Spell for the bonus wizard feat, and for the others Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and either Spell Focus (Evocation) or Improved Counterspell.

She is entitled to a familiar...should we give her one?   I'd vote no.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Looking good so far.
> 
> It looks like the standard for denoting a monster with class levels is (see the sample lich):
> 
> Yesorkh Pahyeh, 9th-Level Ba'atun Wizard




i know about that.  the problem is, the name i need to input when i post these monsters is both what will show up on the monster index as well as the monster's individual page.  i don't know any other way to put "Orc, 1st level warrior" on there, other than to state it in the text.  



> Additional Skills:   Definitely maxed-out Spellcraft and Concentration, also Knowlege (arcana).
> 
> Feats:  Shouldn't she get 3 more feats, plus one wizard bonus feat and Scribe Scroll?    I'd suggest Empower Spell for the bonus wizard feat, and for the others Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, and either Spell Focus (Evocation) or Improved Counterspell.




i wasn't sure if she would get one as a 1st level character, or if that was covered under the first monster HD.



> She is entitled to a familiar...should we give her one?   I'd vote no.




i concur.  

otherwise her stats look fine?  i'd like to try to finish the ba'atun over the weekend so we can move on to something else.


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i know about that.  the problem is, the name i need to input when i post these monsters is both what will show up on the monster index as well as the monster's individual page.  i don't know any other way to put "Orc, 1st level warrior" on there, other than to state it in the text.




No problem.  Stating it in the text should be sufficient.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i wasn't sure if she would get one as a 1st level character, or if that was covered under the first monster HD.




I used to second-guess myself on this all the time.  Here's the relevant info:

Feat Acquisition and Ability Score Increases: A monster’s total Hit Dice, not its ECL, govern its acquisition of feats and ability score increases. For example, a 1st-level minotaur barbarian has a total of 7 HD. It has three feats (for its 1st, 3rd, and 6th HD). When it gains 2nd level as a barbarian, it becomes a creature of 8 Hit Dice and improves one ability score by 1 point. When it adds its 3rd level of barbarian, the minotaur becomes a creature of 9 Hit Dice and gains its fourth feat.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> otherwise her stats look fine?  i'd like to try to finish the ba'atun over the weekend so we can move on to something else.




She's a beauty.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

i doubt it.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 15, 2004)

how aboot this:

COMBAT
Yesorkh uses her ability to possess other creatures to further her machinations.  She spends a good deal of her time inhabiting other creatures’ bodies.  In combat, she will use whatever capabilities her victim has, and will show no concern for the condition of the victim.  She will tend to abandon her victim’s body when it loses two thirds of its hit points if the battle is going badly for her.

Cold Beam (Su): Yesorkh can create a beam of cold, once per day. The beam is shaped like a cone 50 feet long and 20 wide at the base, and causes 3d8 points of cold damage to all creatures within it (Reflex save DC 18 for half).  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Ice Shards (Su): Yesorkh can fire shards of ice from her hands, once per day, up to 5 feet away. These shards cause 2d8 points of cold damage to a single target (Reflex save DC 17? for half).  The save DC is Dexterity-based.

Possession (Su): Yesorkh has the ability to possess the body of any creature, once per week.  Yesorkh must succeed on a melee touch attack and she gains control over a creature if it fails a Will save (DC X).  While possessing a creature, Yesorkh has access to the victim’s surface thoughts, and she can use any of the possessed creature’s special attacks and special qualities.  Yesorkh can also cast her arcane spells if the possessed creature has a humanoid form.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

The creature remains possessed by Yesorkh indefinitely, until she returns to her own body or possesses another creature.  The banishment spell will drive her from her victim’s body as will a remove curse spell cast by an 8th-level or higher caster.

Yesorkh can relinquish control over her victim as a free action.  In this form, she appears as a shadowy version of herself.  She is incorporeal and can move at a speed of 120.  She can reenter her own body as a free action by touching it.

When Yesorkh leaves a creature’s body, willingly or unwillingly, the victim collapses in a state of shock for 1d10 minutes.

Screech (Su): Ba'atun can emit a loud, piercing and chilling screech as a free action.  All creatures within 60 feet of the ba’atun must make a successful Will save (DC 19?) or be struck by fear and be cowering for one full round.  Each round that the screeching lasts, victims must make another successful saving throw at the beginning of initiative to be able to act. Only one saving throw per round is required (at the highest DC within range of each character), no matter how many ba'atun there are.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting fear effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spells: Yesorkh is a 9th-level wizard.  She has access to the following spells: 0 – acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue; 1st – charm person, magic missile, ventriloquism; 2nd – darkness, invisibility, mirror image, protection from arrows; 3rd – haste, lightning bolt; 4th – dimension door, lesser globe of invulnerability; 5th – summon monster V.  The save DCs are Intelligence-based.

Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/6/5/4/3/2; save DC 15 + spell level); 0 – x; 1st – charm person, magic missile (x2), ventriloquism; 2nd – darkness, invisibility, mirror image, protection from arrows; 3rd – haste, lightning bolt; 4th – dimension door, lesser globe of invulnerability; 5th – summon monster V.

Wall of Ice (Sp): Yesorkh can create a wall of ice, as the spell, once per day.  Caster level 9th.

***

Other spells I think she might dig (no fire-related spells!) for her spellbook:

1 – protection from good, mage armor, obscuring mist, hypnotism, sleep, disguise self, jump
2 – fog cloud, glitterdust, web, touch of idiocy, blur, minor image, scare, spider climb
3 – stinking cloud, suggestion, wind wall, blink, gaseous form
4 – ice storm, solid fog, confusion, fear
5 – cone of cold, teleport, hold monster, feeblemind, baleful polymorph


----------



## Shade (Jan 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how aboot this:
> 
> COMBAT
> Yesorkh uses her ability to possess other creatures to further her machinations.  She spends a good deal of her time inhabiting other creatures’ bodies.  In combat, she will use whatever capabilities her victim has, and will show no concern for the condition of the victim.  She will tend to abandon her victim’s body when it loses two thirds of its hit points if the battle is going badly for her.
> ...




Lookin' good so far.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ice Shards (Su): Yesorkh can fire shards of ice from her hands, once per day, up to 5 feet away. These shards cause 2d8 points of cold damage to a single target (Reflex save DC 17? for half).  The save DC is Dexterity-based.




DC 17 is correct.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Possession (Su): Yesorkh has the ability to possess the body of any creature, once per week.  Yesorkh must succeed on a melee touch attack and she gains control over a creature if it fails a Will save (DC X).  While possessing a creature, Yesorkh has access to the victim’s surface thoughts, and she can use any of the possessed creature’s special attacks and special qualities.  Yesorkh can also cast her arcane spells if the possessed creature has a humanoid form.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




DC 17 unless we give her Ability Focus for it.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The creature remains possessed by Yesorkh indefinitely, until she returns to her own body or possesses another creature.  The banishment spell will drive her from her victim’s body as will a remove curse spell cast by an 8th-level or higher caster.
> 
> Yesorkh can relinquish control over her victim as a free action.  In this form, she appears as a shadowy version of herself.  She is incorporeal and can move at a speed of 120.  She can reenter her own body as a free action by touching it.




Incorporeal creatures usually fly with perfect maneuverability now, so you might mention that.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> When Yesorkh leaves a creature’s body, willingly or unwillingly, the victim collapses in a state of shock for 1d10 minutes.




Maybe allow a Fort save here?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Screech (Su): Ba'atun can emit a loud, piercing and chilling screech as a free action.  All creatures within 60 feet of the ba’atun must make a successful Will save (DC 19?) or be struck by fear and be cowering for one full round.  Each round that the screeching lasts, victims must make another successful saving throw at the beginning of initiative to be able to act. Only one saving throw per round is required (at the highest DC within range of each character), no matter how many ba'atun there are.  This is a sonic, mind-affecting fear effect.  The save DC is Charisma-based.




DC 19 is correct.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Spells: Yesorkh is a 9th-level wizard.  She has access to the following spells: 0 – acid splash, arcane mark, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, detect poison, disrupt undead, flare, ghost sound, light, mage hand, mending, message, open/close, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read magic, resistance, touch of fatigue; 1st – charm person, magic missile, ventriloquism; 2nd – darkness, invisibility, mirror image, protection from arrows; 3rd – haste, lightning bolt; 4th – dimension door, lesser globe of invulnerability; 5th – summon monster V.  The save DCs are Intelligence-based.
> 
> Typical Wizard Spells Prepared (4/6/5/4/3/2; save DC 15 + spell level); 0 – x; 1st – charm person, magic missile (x2), ventriloquism; 2nd – darkness, invisibility, mirror image, protection from arrows; 3rd – haste, lightning bolt; 4th – dimension door, lesser globe of invulnerability; 5th – summon monster V.
> 
> ...




This all looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Other spells I think she might dig (no fire-related spells!) for her spellbook:
> 
> 1 – protection from good, mage armor, obscuring mist, hypnotism, sleep, disguise self, jump
> 2 – fog cloud, glitterdust, web, touch of idiocy, blur, minor image, scare, spider climb
> ...




Agreed on all counts.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 19, 2004)

kind of lost focus on what i was doing with these...

posting what i have in homebrews, maybe we're closer to done than i think.


----------



## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

Looking over Homebrews....

LAs for Ba’atun (all varieties except Yesorkh, who shouldn't have one)
+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+1 for natural armor
+1 for fly speed
+1 for cold resistance
---------------------------------------
+4 Total

Weight of 200 lbs. sounds fine.

Yesorkh CR:  5 (standard swarm leader) + 3 (7 nonassociated class levels divided by 2) + 2(2 associated class levels) = 10.

Otherwise, I think they're finished.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> LAs for Ba’atun (all varieties except Yesorkh, who shouldn't have one)




thought so, but i wasn't sure.  



> +4 Total
> 
> Weight of 200 lbs. sounds fine.




cool.  



> Yesorkh CR:  5 (standard swarm leader) + 3 (7 nonassociated class levels divided by 2) + 2(2 associated class levels) = 10.




eh?  'splain!  seems kinda low for a 9th-level character with 7 additional HD...


----------



## Shade (Jan 20, 2004)

Yeah, this is kinda tricky.  From the Improving Monsters section of the MM...

Associated Class Levels - "Class levels that increase a monster’s existing strengths are known as associated class levels. Each associated class level a monster has increases its CR by 1.  Barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on its fighting ability.  Rogue and ranger are associated classes for a creature that relies on stealth to surprise its foes, or on skill use to give itself an advantage.  A spellcasting class is an associated class for a creature that already has the ability to cast spells as a character of the class in question, since the monster’s levels in the spellcasting class stack with its innate spellcasting ability. A rakshasa, for example, casts spells as a 7th-level sorcerer. If it picks up a level of sorcerer, it casts spells as an 8th-level sorcerer."

Nonassociated Class Levels: ""If you add a class level that doesn’t directly play to a creature’s strength, the class level is considered nonassociated, and things get a little more complicated. Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by 1/2 per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice. At that point, each additional level of the same class or a similar one is considered associated and increases the monster’s CR by 1."

Since she has no existing spellcasting ability, it seemed to fall under the nonassoicated class levels.  But if you're more comforatable just adding 9 to her base CR, go for it.


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## BOZ (Jan 20, 2004)

CR 14?  sure.


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

Yeah, looks like you’re right about being done.  Only a couple items to clear up before moving on:

Do slings allow a Strength bonus to damage?  To attacks?

And does good ol’ standard DC 15 work here?:

When Yesorkh leaves a creature’s body, willingly or unwillingly, the victim must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 15?) or collapse in a state of shock for 1d10 minutes.


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## Shade (Jan 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Do slings allow a Strength bonus to damage?  To attacks?




Yes to damage, no to attacks.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And does good ol’ standard DC 15 work here?:
> 
> When Yesorkh leaves a creature’s body, willingly or unwillingly, the victim must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 15?) or collapse in a state of shock for 1d10 minutes.




It will work, or you could use 10 + 1/2 Yesork's HD + Cha modifier.


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

ok, updating in homebrews.  let me know how they look!

but not to waste any time, i'll be posting the next monster momentarily...


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## BOZ (Jan 21, 2004)

Hey, it’s the living web’s cousin!  


From module UK4 – When a Star Falls:

MEMORY WEB

FREQUENCY: Very rare	
No. APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: 2	
MOVE: 3" or leap 18"	
HIT DICE: 6	
%IN LAIR: Nil	
TREASURE TYPE: Nil	
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1	
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6	
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil	
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Non-magical weapons only do half damage
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard	
INTELLIGENCE: Very	
ALIGNMENT: Neutral	
SIZE: See below	
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil	
	Attack/defence modes: Nil	
LEVEL/xpVALUE: lV/110 + 4 per hit point	 

This creature is an animated mass of fibres resembling those created by a web spell (see PHB p72) and has similar but not identical attributes. It can hide by compressing itself into a tight ball and attacks by leaping up to 18", spreading out as it does so. It will enmesh anyone within a circular area 20 feet across and does not need anchor points. Anyone caught has the same chance of breaking free as from a normal web, and will take 1-6 hit points of damage (by constriction) per round until the web is destroyed or they are released. A memory web will take only half damage from non-magical weapons or fire.

Memories of dead victims are absorbed by the memory web, and if destroyed, it will emit all memories gained during the previous day, in a kind of telepathic shock wave. These will lodge in the minds of creatures up to 200 feet from the web, and will take the form of dream-like recollections with some details clear, and others just beyond recall.



From MC3, very similar (merely the difference between 1E and 2E): 

Web, Living
Memory




CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Caverns, ruins
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Very (11-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 3 (leap 18)
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 13
NO. Of ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: See below
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 3000

This creature is a mass of fibers resembling those created by a web spell; it has similar but not identical attributes. It can hide by compressing itself into a tight ball. It attacks by leaping up to 180 feet, spreading out into a circular web 20 feet in diameter. The web does not need anchor points. Anyone caught by the memory web has the same chance of breaking free as if escaping a normal web. As the web constricts, enwrapped victims suffer 1d6 points of damage per round until they escape, die, or the web is destroyed. A memory web suffers only half damage from non-magical weapons or fire.

Memories of slain victims are absorbed by the memory web. If the web is destroyed, it will emit all the memories gained during the previous day in the form of a telepathic shock wave. The memories lodge into the minds of all creatures up to 200 feet from the web and take the form of dream-like recollections. Some details will be clear, others beyond recall.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2004)

Memory Web
Gargantuan Ooze? 
Hit Dice: 6d10+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
AC: 18 (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural) touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: -
Full Attack: -
Space/Reach: 20 ft./0 ft.?
Special Attacks: Constrict 1d6+X, entangle, telepathic shock wave
Special Qualities: Blindsight 60 ft., ooze traits 
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 27
Feats: 3

Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Always neutral 
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


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## BOZ (Jan 22, 2004)

Gargantuan?  The biggest it seems to get is a 20’ diameter (not radius).  That would make it Huge at most, I would think.  But actually, I’m inclined to go with the “tight little ball” for its normal size, but with the ability to expand out to a 20/20 square area.

Ooze?  Maybe.  If it worked for the other web, it might just work here too.  If not, then aberration.

Skills, of course Jump is important.  They can jump 50 feet (18 x 2.5 rounded up) per round.  And Hide, definitely.

“A memory web suffers only half damage from non-magical weapons or fire.”  Damage reduction and fire resistance, naturally.

Attacks – a touch attack to start the entangle maybe?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Gargantuan?  The biggest it seems to get is a 20’ diameter (not radius).  That would make it Huge at most, I would think.  But actually, I’m inclined to go with the “tight little ball” for its normal size, but with the ability to expand out to a 20/20 square area.




Oops!   I did indeed assume diameter rather than radius.    

What size are you thinking for the “tight little ball”?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ooze?  Maybe.  If it worked for the other web, it might just work here too.  If not, then aberration.




 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills, of course Jump is important.  They can jump 50 feet (18 x 2.5 rounded up) per round.  And Hide, definitely.




Good points.  They'll need a huge racial bonus to be able to jump that far with the Jump skill.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “A memory web suffers only half damage from non-magical weapons or fire.”  Damage reduction and fire resistance, naturally.




Naturally.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Attacks – a touch attack to start the entangle maybe?




Sure.  

"Memories of dead victims are absorbed by the memory web, and if destroyed, it will emit all memories gained during the previous day, in a kind of telepathic shock wave. These will lodge in the minds of creatures up to 200 feet from the web, and will take the form of dream-like recollections with some details clear, and others just beyond recall."

What do we do with this?  As it stands, it is sort of a nonability.  Maybe a 50% chance to lose any attempted actions, like with bestow curse?


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

i don't think the shock wave should be an attack, per se.  maybe some people would have painful memories, but in all it wouldn't really affect a character (except maybe drive em a little nuts).

for size... tiny?  diminutive even?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

How about diminutive.  There just aren't enough diminutive creatures.    

So is the "telepathic shock wave" just going to be flavor text?  It seems like it should have at least some gameplay effect, since it is the only aspect of memories associated with the creature.  It is, after all, called the "memory web".


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## BOZ (Jan 23, 2004)

maybe dazed for a few rounds?  some sort of lesser confusion effect?

naturally, of course, if a PC gets useable memories from an important character, that will be a useful game effect.  

diminutive would be ok - maybe they're the size of a basketball?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2004)

True, getting the right memories would be a good thing.    

I was thinking that the wrong memories should have some sort of effect.  I like the dazed idea.

It's the basketball...OF DOOM!


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## Krishnath (Jan 23, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good points.  They'll need a huge racial bonus to be able to jump that far with the Jump skill.




Why not just give them a jump speed of 50'? It's not like it would be the first creature with a weird form of movement (The Neh-Telggu (sp?) for example has a movement rating of _Dimension Door_ in addition to it's normal movement.)

As for the Telepathic Shockwave, how about this:

*Death Throes (Ex):* When a memory Web dies, it sends out a mental shockwave that affects all creatures within an X' radius. Those within the radius must succeed at a will save (DC X) or be affected as by the confusion spell for a number of rounds equal to the Memory Webs HD. Creatures entagled by the memory web get no saves.

Sound good?


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2004)

Since jump is already a mechanic handled by the Jump skill, the purist in me wants to avoid adding an additional type of movement.   Maybe we could just give it a huge bonus on the Jump skill, and also allow it to use its Dex bonus instead of Str for Jump checks (like cats)?  I'm assuming it will have a high Dexterity if it ends up being Diminutive.

I like Krishnath's death throes writeup.


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## BOZ (Jan 30, 2004)

i agree with shade that it should be a skill-based manuever, with a high Jump bonus.

the death throes is nice, but i would prefer to use lesser confusion instead.


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## Krishnath (Jan 31, 2004)

Then use my deathroes writeup, but add lesser before confusion


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

how's this?

Death Throes (Ex?): When a memory web dies, it sends out a mental shockwave that affects all creatures within a 200-foot radius. Those within the radius must succeed at a will save (DC X) or be affected as by the lesser confusion spell. Creatures entangled by the memory web receive no saving throw.  This is a mind-affecting effect.  The save DC is Charisma(?)-based.  All creatures affected will experience a series of dream-like recollections over the next 1d3 days, based on the memories that the web had drained during the 24 hours before it died.


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## BOZ (Feb 1, 2004)

and here's an updated stat block:

*Memory Web*
Diminutive (Ooze or Aberration?)
Hit Dice: 6d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: Touch + X melee touch
Full Attack: Touch + X melee touch
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: web/entangle, constrict 1d6, death throes
Special Qualities: blindsight 60 ft, damage reduction, fire resistance X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 12, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X super Jump, Hide (size bonus +12)
Feats: 3

i like the idea of using Dex for Jump checks, but i think it may need a racial bonus too.


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## Shade (Feb 2, 2004)

Suggested ability scores:  Str 1, Dex 25, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 1

Skills:  Memory webs have a +16 racial bonus on Jump checks. They use their Dexterity modifier instead of their Strength modifier for Climb and Jump checks. 

Jump bonus so far:  9 skill ranks + 16 racial bonus + 7 Dex bonus -12 speed penalty = +20.

DC to Jump 50 feet (with running start) = DC 50.   Unfortunately, since its speed is only 10 ft., in can only make a running jump as part of a charge attack.  Otherwise the DC doubles.

With the suggested skill modifiers above, it can jump 20 feet without rolling, and a max of 40 feet on a roll of 20.

If we were to increase its base speed to 20 ft., it would lose -6 from the speed penalty, and wouldn't have to charge to get a running start.  It could jump 26 feet without rolling, and a max of 46 feet on a roll of 20.   This is closer to what it could jump in 1E/2E.


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## Krishnath (Feb 4, 2004)

I say, make it an aberration


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

is there a way we could make it so that it does a standing jump instead of a running jump?  extraordinary ability if need be?


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## Shade (Feb 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> is there a way we could make it so that it does a standing jump instead of a running jump?  extraordinary ability if need be?




I swear I've seen a creature with such an ability before, but I haven't been able to locate it.

Here's an attempt to describe this ability:

Powerful Leap (Ex):  A memory web treats all Jump checks as if it had taken a 20-foot running start.  Thus, the DCs of long jumps and high jumps made without a running start are not doubled.


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## BOZ (Feb 5, 2004)

that sounds like a good way to start.


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

i think i will make these guys aberrations.

with that ability, how well will they be able to jump now?

and for the entangle attack, we can borrow a bit from the ba'atun writeup:
Web Stones: Ba’atun flight leaders carry special sling stones that create webs, as the spell, upon hitting a creature or surface. These webs stick to whatever they hit, and everything within a 5-foot-diameter area for 3 minutes (Reflex save DC 15 to avoid), and require no anchor points to stick to. The save DC is Dexterity-based.


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

shade - why would we only give them a charisma of 1, if their int is 12 and their wis is 14?

and would a Str score of 1 impair their ability to entangle, and do constriction damage?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> with that ability, how well will they be able to jump now?




The DC of the Jump check would equal the distance jumped, rather than double the distance jumped.   In other words, it can jump twice as far with this ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> shade - why would we only give them a charisma of 1, if their int is 12 and their wis is 14?




Because at the time I thought they were a mindless ooze, and I copied it from the living web.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and would a Str score of 1 impair their ability to entangle, and do constriction damage?




It shouldn't effect entangle, if it is like the web spell, since the DC is static.  It would do less constriction damage, though, due to a Strength penalty.


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## BOZ (Feb 10, 2004)

i thought so.  well, since constrict is how it kills its enemies...


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2004)

...it'll need a higher Strength.    

But, since constrict is based on a grapple check, and Diminutive creatures get a -12 grapple modifier....


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2004)

besides the jump check, it will need some sort of bonus to grappling and constricting as well.  hmm... now i'm almost thinking maybe we should have made it bigger, with the ability to collapse into a small form...


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2004)

It's not too late.


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## BOZ (Feb 11, 2004)

i'll need to think about that.  get back to you later.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

ok, from here out, the memory web will be a Huge creature.  
this line kind of did it for me while i was reading it:
"It can hide by compressing itself into a tight ball"

so, instead of some of the abilities we've been giving it, we'll now give it a Hide bonus of +12 instead of a penalty of -8, for example.

this will also mean a lower Dex (but not a low Dex) and a higher Str (but not necessarily a very high Str - maybe "minimum" for its size)

methinks we should also keep "powerful leap", perhaps with modifications, but i like the fact that it can take nice standing jumps.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

Thoughts about the memory web…

Here are the changes I’m thinking about for ability scores: Str 24, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15

Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft?

Damage reduction – (5 or 10)/(magic and/or slashing) ?

Fire resistance 5 or 10?

Adding Amorphous SQ.

Removing “Dex modifier for Jump checks.”  Racial bonus to Jump should remain, but can be reduced.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Here are the changes I’m thinking about for ability scores: Str 24, Dex 18, Con 11, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 15




That'll work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Space/Reach: 15 ft/10 ft?




I'd go 15 ft. on reach.   The critter attacks with its whole body, so it ought to match its space, right?    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Damage reduction – (5 or 10)/(magic and/or slashing) ?




I vote for 10/slashing.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Fire resistance 5 or 10?




I think 5 is appropriate for a 6 HD creature.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Adding Amorphous SQ.




Great!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Removing “Dex modifier for Jump checks.”  Racial bonus to Jump should remain, but can be reduced.




Agreed.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

flavor text...

_ This appears to be a balled-up mass of spider webs, about one foot in diameter._

The memory web is an animated mass of web-like fibers that feeds off the mental energies of the creatures it kills.  It spends most of its time compressed into a tight ball, but can expand to a 20-foot circle to ensnare prey.  It seeks to absorb the memories of sentient creatures, which will pacify it as it relives them in its own mind.

COMBAT
A memory web usually hides from prey in its compressed form, then leaps out at great distances to enmesh its unwary victims.  It constricts those it has caught until they are dead, but if met with dangerous foes that it cannot deal with, the creature will flee.


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

Here’s an attempt at an SQ:
Compress (Ex): A memory web can compress its form so that it temporarily becomes a Diminutive sphere.  In this form the memory web gains a +X racial bonus on Jump checks, and a +12 bonus on Hide checks (instead of its normal –8 penalty to Hide checks).  It moves at its normal rate by rolling on the ground, and it cannot move or jump while not compressed.  A memory web cannot use its touch attack while compressed.

Adding this to the combat text:
The memory web stretches out to its full size while in the air, and makes an entangle attack as it lands.

Entangle (Ex): A memory web at its full size is able to entrap creatures as if it were a web spell.  The memory web requires no anchor points to stick to.  Creatures in the area can make a Reflex save (DC X) to avoid the web.  Entangled creatures are subject to the web’s constrict attack, and will remain entangled until the memory web is destroyed, or until they are able to escape.  The save DC is (Dexterity?)-based.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2004)

...and the memory remains...

Wow, BOZ.  You're on a roll on these guys.   Everything is looking good so far.
My only concern is the entangle effect.   The web spell says...

"Anyone in the effect’s area when the spell is cast must make a Reflex save. If this save succeeds, the creature is entangled, but not prevented from moving, though moving is more difficult than normal for being entangled (see below). If the save fails, the creature is entangled and can’t move from its space, but can break loose by spending 1 round and making a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check. Once loose (either by making the initial Reflex save or a later Strength check or Escape Artist check), a creature remains entangled, but may move through the web very slowly. Each round devoted to moving allows the creature to make a new Strength check or Escape Artist check. The creature moves 5 feet for each full 5 points by which the check result exceeds 10."

"If you have at least 5 feet of web between you and an opponent, it provides cover. If you have at least 20 feet of web between you, it provides total cover."

So how would this work with constrict?  Constrict usually requires a grapple check.   Can entangled creatures move through the creature with a successful skill check?


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## BOZ (Feb 12, 2004)

On a roll?  Get it?  They roll…?  

I knew there was something that didn’t add up perfectly.  Naturally, one cannot really move while constricted.
How about this.
Anything caught in the area of effect is entangled, right?  But maybe the web must roll a touch attack (and against a prone opponent being entangled, it’s almost guaranteed to hit) to start a grapple/constrict.
There’s a way to do this, it just leaves us to figure out how.  I’d say a certain set of circumstances must be right for each attack form to work – this makes the creature more versatile and interesting, IMO.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2004)

Got it.  Now that's what I call a sticky situation.    

We could always give it improved grab and say that it may make grapple attempts against all creatures within its area.  Perhaps it could make one grapple check opposed by all creatures in the area, and that those that fail are considered grappled and subject to constriction.  Those that succeed are simply considered entangled  (–2 penalty on all attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity, must make a DC 15 + the spell’s level Concentration check or lose a spell.)   I'd also say that the memory web does not suffer the usual -20 penalty if it does not want to be considered grappled.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

i think you're getting where i'm coming from.  i'm low on time at the moment, but i hope to write this up tomorrow.

Let me explain how I envision an attack from a memory web.  Let’s say a memory web falls on four characters; a fighter, a rogue, a wizard, and a cleric.  Each rolls its Reflex save, and only the rogue succeeds – the other three are now entangled.  The web decides the fighter has the best chance of escaping, so in the next round, it does a constrict attack on him.  The wizard and cleric can try their Strength checks or Escape Artist checks to escape, or the rogue can assist them by attacking the web.  If the web kills the fighter (or he escapes) before the wizard and cleric get free, it will try to constrict one of them.  When no characters are entangled, the web will make another entangle attack.

At least, that’s one possible way of doing it.    what we need to do is set up the powers so that it can work that way.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

thoughts?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2004)

I was waiting for "i hope to write this up tomorrow."    

This is uncharted territory, so it may take a while before we get it right.

Here's an attempt to polish up what we've got so far...

Entanging Strike (Ex?):  When a memory web attacks, all creatures within its space must succeed on DC X Reflex save or become entangled.  If the save fails, the creature is entangled and can’t move from its space, but can break loose by spending 1 round and making a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 25 Escape Artist check.  Any creature that is entangled may be targeted by the memory web's constrict ability on its next action.  When no characters are entangled, the web will make another entangling strike.


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## BOZ (Feb 13, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I was waiting for "i hope to write this up tomorrow."







not sure about that writeup... will require some thought.


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## BOZ (Feb 14, 2004)

Let’s see here…

For the most part, I like the “works like the web spell” aspect, since there’s very little about it that’s really different.

What I think I forgot to mention is that the constrict attack would be coming from a touch attack.  Adding Improved Grab is a-OK by me.  I think it should only be able to grapple/constrict one opponent at a time, but it may entangle as many opponents as can fit in its space.

Entangle (Ex): A memory web expanded to its full size is able to entrap foes as a standard action. This attack functions as a web spell, except that the memory web requires no anchor points to stick to. Creatures in the area can make a Reflex save (DC X) to avoid the web.  Those that fail the save will remain entangled until the memory web is destroyed, or until they are able to escape.  Creatures that are entangled within the memory web may be subjected to its touch attack the following round.  The save DC is (Dexterity?)-based.


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## BOZ (Feb 14, 2004)

Such as:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a memory web must hit with its touch attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.

I’m thinking the memweb can also make a touch attack against creatures that it is not grappling, if they are within its reach, but it would probably not do this as entangling them first is much easier.


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## BOZ (Feb 14, 2004)

oh by the way, i'm heading home now to start the "convert-a-thon"    you'll hear much more from me in an hour or 2...


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## BOZ (Feb 16, 2004)

what a lie that was.  

so, thoughts?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

So are you wanting to stick with the ability for creatures to move through the memory web with a successful skill check, since that is what the web spell allows?


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

yes (unless constricted of course) - do you think we need to restate that, or simply going with "as the spell" covers that?

as i have it:

Entangle (Ex): A memory web expanded to its full size is able to entrap foes as a standard action. This attack functions as a web spell, except that the memory web requires no anchor points to stick to. Creatures in the area can make a Reflex save (DC X) to avoid the web. Those that fail the save will remain entangled until the memory web is destroyed, or until they are able to escape. Creatures that are entangled within the memory web may be subjected to its touch attack the following round. The save DC is (Dexterity?)-based.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a memory web must hit with its touch attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m thinking the memweb can also make a touch attack against creatures that it is not grappling, if they are within its reach, but it would probably not do this as entangling them first is much easier.




I'd just stick with the entangle attack for simplicity's sake.

"As the spell" probably does cover the movement issues.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

you're probably right, and touch attacks would be so much easier against an entangled opponent, as they would hardly ever fail!  

so the attack routine i have above is gut, ja?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

Das ist gut.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

cool, posting in homebrews in a moment...


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

It gets 27 skill ranks.   How about Hide 6, Jump 9, Spot 7, Tumble 5?  This way it gets a +2 synergy bonus on Jump checks.

These ranks would make its skill modifiers Hide +10 (-8 while Huge, +12 while Diminutive), Jump +18 plus racial bonus, Spot +9, Tumble +9.  

If we give it a +12 racial bonus to Jump checks, it would have a Jump modifier of +30, allowing it to leap 30 ft. without rolling, and 50 ft. on a 20.  I'd say we've accounted for the fact that it originally could leap 50 ft.  

However.... 

Normally, it would have a -12 penalty for having a speed of 10 ft.  (-6 for every 10 ft. less than 30 ft.)   Perhaps we could make a note in the powerful leap ability that the memory web does not suffer these penalties?

Should we mention that entangle does not provoke an attack of opportunity?


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

> It gets 27 skill ranks. How about Hide 6, Jump 9, Spot 7, Tumble 5? This way it gets a +2 synergy bonus on Jump checks.
> 
> These ranks would make its skill modifiers Hide +10 (-8 while Huge, +12 while Diminutive), Jump +18 plus racial bonus, Spot +9, Tumble +9.
> 
> ...



would it otherwise provoke AoO?  If so, then I’d say yes.  

I swear I’ve seen creatures that have no Jump penalty for size, so it would be child’s play to modify that so that it said the same for speed.

+12 racial bonus to Jump checks would be cool by me.  Keep in mind that the jump bonus would only be usable in smaller form – the stretched out web does not move.

Acrobatic feat would be tres nice, also.    then, we could (optionally) reduce the jump bonus to +10.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> would it otherwise provoke AoO?  If so, then I’d say yes.




I think it would, unless it said otherwise.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I swear I’ve seen creatures that have no Jump penalty for size, so it would be child’s play to modify that so that it said the same for speed.




Is there a Jump penalty for size?    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> +12 racial bonus to Jump checks would be cool by me.  Keep in mind that the jump bonus would only be usable in smaller form – the stretched out web does not move.




Good point.   Maybe make it part of the powerful leap ability rather than the skills entry?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Acrobatic feat would be tres nice, also.    then, we could (optionally) reduce the jump bonus to +10.




Good call!  That sounds much better.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Is there a Jump penalty for size?




isn't it that there is a maximum distance you can jump based on your size?  i've seen creatures that say there is no such restritction.



> Good point.   Maybe make it part of the powerful leap ability rather than the skills entry?




sure.  i have it under the Compress entry, but i can just as easily move it under powerful leap.  

Good call!  That sounds much better.   [/QUOTE]


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

Hmmm...I don't see anything in the Jump skill description.  I wonder if it was something they dumped from 3E.   In 3.5, it actually helps to be bigger...vertical reach is a factor for jumping up.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

aha!  i knew i wasn't just blowing smoke.    i gave this creature the leap ability as listed because someone suggested it based on a creature they had seen in a book.  http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=719


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

+30!?!?!   WOW!    

I now think I realize what the size penalty was in 3E...the vertical distance being limited by height.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

and this is no longer in effect?


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

Not completely.  It is now based on "vertical reach".

High Jump: A high jump is a vertical leap made to reach a ledge high above or to grasp something overhead. The DC is equal to 4 times the distance to be cleared. If you jumped up to grab something, a successful check indicates that you reached the desired height. If you wish to pull yourself up, you can do so with a move action and a DC 15 Climb check. If you fail the Jump check, you do not reach the height, and you land on your feet in the same spot from which you jumped. As with a long jump, the DC is doubled if you do not get a running start of at least 20 feet.

High Jump Distance* (Jump DC**)
1 foot (4) 
2 feet (8) 
3 feet (12) 
4 feet (16) 
5 feet (20) 
6 feet (24)
7 feet (28) 
8 feet (32) 
*Not including vertical reach; see below.
**Requires a 20-foot running start. Without a running start, double the DC.

Obviously, the difficulty of reaching a given height varies according to the size of the character or creature. The maximum vertical reach (height the creature can reach without jumping) for an average creature of a given size is shown on the table below. (As a Medium creature, a typical human can reach 8 feet without jumping.)

Quadrupedal creatures don’t have the same vertical reach as a bipedal creature; treat them as being one size category smaller.

Creature Size / Vertical Reach 
Colossal / 128 ft. 
Gargantuan / 64 ft. 
Huge / 32 ft. 
Large / 16 ft. 
Medium / 8 ft. 
Small / 4 ft. 
Tiny / 2 ft. 
Diminutive  / 1 ft. 
Fine / 1/2 ft.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

so, if we're limited to a jumping height of 1 foot, would i also want to add a note that the memweb has no such limitation, as i did with camprat?  (assuming i'm reading that right)


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

That's not necessary.  Basically, it is saying that in addition to its Jump check result, the critter gets another 1 ft. of vertical reach (to account for its arms reaching out, I suppose).  

So, with its Jump check modifier of +30, it needs to roll a 2 to jump 9 ft. up (the DC is for 8 ft, but it gains 1 ft. for vertical reach).

At least that's how I understand it.


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

OK.  

neh?

Powerful Leap (Ex): A memory web treats all Jump checks as if it had taken a 20-foot running start. Thus, the DCs of long jumps and high jumps made without a running start are not doubled.  A memory web gains a +10 competence bonus on all Jump checks, and it suffers no penalty to Jump checks for its slow speed.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2004)

Perfecto!


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## BOZ (Feb 17, 2004)

good then!  updating in homebrews...


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

It is coming along nicely.

I like damage reduction 10/slashing.

Other feat suggestions:  Alertness, Stealthy, Great Fortitude, or Ability Focus (entangle).

CR 4?

For LA, I'd recommend none.  It's a little too weird (lacking arms and whatnot) to be a playable character.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

Finishing up the memory web:

I gave it DR 10/slashing or magic.

Feats: Stealthy for sure.  Alertness would be nice, but Ability Focus might be better.  

Would resistance to fire 5 be sufficient?  Maybe it should be 10 as this is a 6-HD monster?

CR 4 sounds good – could be as high as 5 maybe, but 4 works.

Death Throes – I’m thinking this could be extraordinary, but if it could be blocked by anything that stops magic then maybe it wouldn’t be?  Will save DC 15, Charisma-based?

Entangle: Dex-based save?  DC 17, or DC 19 if we give it Ability Focus?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Go with resistance to fire 10.

Death Throes - It sounds like a Su ability to me, and Cha-based.

Entangle - I agree with Dex-based.  Let's give it Ability Focus since it relies so heavily on this ability.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

updating - is it done?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Just about.  We need languages and weight.   Seeing as its a bunch of webs, I'm thinking it weighs very little.

It is smart enough to understand languages, but probably shouldn't speak.   Should we say that the memory web understands Undercommon, but does not speak?


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

i agree about the languages.  for weight... geez, how much would a basket-ball sized clump of spiderwebs weigh?  5 pounds, maybe less?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

Well, a small air elemental weighs 1 lb., so I doubt a cluster of spiderwebs would weigh much more.   How about saying "a memory web weighs up to 5 lbs."  That would account for any leftover bits of its victims that are still stuck within it.


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

LOL  after it eats, maybe


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## BOZ (Feb 19, 2004)

is this guy done?

_ This appears to be a balled-up mass of spider webs, about one foot in diameter._

The memory web is an animated mass of web-like fibers that feeds off the mental energies of the creatures it kills.  It seeks to slake its hunger by absorbing the memories of sentient creatures, which will pacify it as it relives them in its own mind.

A memory web spends most of its time compressed into a tight ball, but can expand to a 20-foot circle to ensnare prey.  When compressed, a memory web is the size of a 1-foot diameter sphere, and weighs no more than 5 pounds total.

A memory web possesses no vocal capabilities, but can understand Undercommon.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2004)

I'd say it's fit to print.


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## BOZ (Feb 23, 2004)

OOH, check this one out - weird but really nasty fun for the DM to use!  (we can call them Trollkillers, LOL)


VITRIOLUS

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 10-100 or 100-1,000
ARMOR CLASS: 8
MOVE: 6"
HIT DICE: 1/2
% IN LAIR: NO
NO. OF ATTACKS: I
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Exploding
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (Chaotic)
SIZE: S (3' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: 11/32 + 1 per hp

Vitrioli are enchanted monsters native to the Para-elemental Plane of Ooze. They do not respond to conjurations by any known spell, but can be summoned by use of a special liquid. Though anyone can use the liquid, only its creator can command the vitrioli only when they first appear.

Vitrioli appear on the Prime Plane as tiny faceless humanoids that appear to be made of sand. They glow with a dim green light. Excitable even on their home plane, they become enraged when drawn from it, attacking any living thing they see, except each other. All details here apply only to their Prime Plane forms, as they have thus far eluded close observation in their native environment.

A Vitriolus explodes when hit or when it hits an opponent. The explosion has a 5-foot radius, and produces both fire and acid damage. Each victim in the area must make two Saving Throws vs. Breath Weapon. The fire damage is 1d8 points plus the original hit points of the Vitriolus. The acid damage is 2d4 points. A successful saving throw reduces damage to one-half in each case. Failure of either saving throw requires further saving throws for items carried. The explosion can also cause structural damage: I point to wood, 1/2 point to metal, but no damage to earth or stone. The Vitriolus is immune to fire and acid-based attacks. It loses 1 hit point per 6 hours spent away from its home plane, disintegrating when reaching 0 hit points.

	Vitrioliquid: A cleric may create a vial of this rare fluid by combining three types of acid, swamp water, and graveyard soil in the proper proportions. The following spells must be cast on the mixture, in this order: light, flame strike, animate object, command, implore, and quest. Some knowledge of the Para-elemental Plane of Ooze is also required. There is a 30% chance that the finished liquid suddenly and permanently drains 1 point of Constitution from the caster, probably because of some force emanating from the monsters' home plane. Such damage cannot be avoided except by chance, though it can be repaired in the usual ways.

Vitrioliquid is always kept in a glass vial, for glass is the only known substance through which the liquid cannot eat. If the entire potion is poured out or the vial broken on earth or stone,

10-100 vitrioli appear from the spot at the rate of one each two segments (5 per round). If only part of the liquid is used, the number of creatures appearing is proportionately fewer. If the liquid is poured into a swamp or other mixture of water and abundant plant life, the number of creatures summoned is greater by tenfold (100- 1,000), as the rich muck beneath the water somehow enhances the effect. If the liquid is poured out onto any other substance except glass, it eats its way through and continues downward until it reaches stone or earth.

A sip of vitrioliquid causes 1-6 points of damage; drinking more than a sip is extremely dangerous. The foolish imbiber must roll ld20; a result of 1-19 indicates death (immediate reduction to -20 hit points), and a result of 20 means that the victim survives the experience but with only 14 hit points remaining. This effect supercedes and negates the usual effects of the liquid; no creatures are summoned, and the liquid does not eat its way out of the victim.


some preliminary stats for the vitriolus:

*Vitriolus*
Small (Aberration? Ooze?) (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 1/2d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: Slam +X melee (explode)
Full Attack: Slam +X melee (explode)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: explode
Special Qualities: immunity to fire and acid, disintegrate
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: ---
Feats: ---

Environment: X
Organization: 10-100 or 100-1000
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: (chaotic neutral?)
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


A vitriolus is 3 feet tall

COMBAT


Originally found in module I7 – Baltron’s Beacon.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2004)

I like ooze for the type.

For the Environment line, should we use Paraelemental Plane of Ooze, or replace it with Elemental Plane of Earth or Water?   I don't believe that the paraelemental planes are acknowledged in 3E/3.5.


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## BOZ (Feb 23, 2004)

i think the plane of Earth might be the closest to what these guys would be.  we can also add "earth" as a subtype then.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2004)

Sounds good.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

for ability scores, i compared to ordinary oozes, and mindless ones get a 1 for Wis and Cha.  for physical stats, i'd say probably 7-10 Str, low Dex - probably 10 at most (they might be small, but i think they'd be kind of slow and plodding, look at the speed), and for Con 10-15.


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

A Small ooze paraelemental has the following stats:  Str 14, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11

Based on your suggestions and this information, I'd recommend:  Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

good picks!  Their ability scores are largely meaningless anyway, since they explode on contact.    still, if they have a lower attack bonus, you might well survive longer against a horde of these things!


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

So true!  



> A Vitriolus explodes when hit or when it hits an opponent. The explosion has a 5-foot radius, and produces both fire and acid damage. Each victim in the area must make two Saving Throws vs. Breath Weapon. The fire damage is 1d8 points plus the original hit points of the Vitriolus. The acid damage is 2d4 points. A successful saving throw reduces damage to one-half in each case. Failure of either saving throw requires further saving throws for items carried. The explosion can also cause structural damage: I point to wood, 1/2 point to metal, but no damage to earth or stone. The Vitriolus is immune to fire and acid-based attacks. It loses 1 hit point per 6 hours spent away from its home plane, disintegrating when reaching 0 hit points.



For this ability, do we want to simplify it to simply being like the fire elemental's burn ability?

*Burn (Ex):* A fire elemental’s slam attack deals bludgeoning damage plus fire damage from the elemental’s flaming body. Those hit by a fire elemental‘s slam attack also must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire. The flame burns for 1d4 rounds. The save DC varies with the elemental’s size (see the table below). A burning creature can take a move action to put out the flame. The save DC is Constitution-based.
Creatures hitting a fire elemental with natural weapons or unarmed attacks take fire damage as though hit by the elemental’s attack, and also catch on fire unless they succeed on a Reflex save.


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

i was under the impression that when these things explode, they really explode - that is, they die.  was i reading it wrong?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

After re-reading it, I think you are right.   Here's a stab at it...

*Explosion (Ex):*  A vitriolus explodes when hit or when it hits an opponent.  Each creature in a 5-foot radius takes 1d8+3 points of fire damage and 2d4 points of acid damage.   A successful Reflex save (DC X) halves the damage.  
Unattended nonmagical objects within the radius also take the damage, and are not entitled to a saving throw.  Note that fire attacks deal half damage to most objects, while acid deals full damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Should we force attended items to make a save if the wielder fails a save, or stick with the usual format that attended items only need to make a save on a critical failure (natural 1)?


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## BOZ (Feb 24, 2004)

now that's much better.  

i would make this sentence a little more specific though: 


> A vitriolus explodes when hit or when it hits an opponent.



i would assume that it only explodes from weapons, claws, slams, and the like, and not energy attacks.  fire and acid, of course, it is immune to.  other attacks, i'd say will hurt it but not cause it to explode.

i don't see why attended items should need a save beyond the character's save.  and we're merging the separate save for each type of damage into one?  (i'm ok with that, just asking if that's intentional)


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2004)

Yeah, it was intentional.  Two saves for essentially the same thing seemed kinda pointless.  Maybe in past editions this was common, but nowadays many dragons deal more than one energy type with their breath weapon, for example.How about:  "A vitriolus explodes when it hits an opponent with its slam attack.  It also explodes when a creature hits the vitriolus with a manufactured weapon, natural attack, or unarmed attack."


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

OK, this was a pretty quick easy conversion.  the only real time we might spend is working on this:

	Vitrioliquid: A cleric may create a vial of this rare fluid by combining three types of acid, swamp water, and graveyard soil in the proper proportions. The following spells must be cast on the mixture, in this order: light, flame strike, animate object, command, implore, and quest. Some knowledge of the Para-elemental Plane of Ooze is also required. There is a 30% chance that the finished liquid suddenly and permanently drains 1 point of Constitution from the caster, probably because of some force emanating from the monsters' home plane. Such damage cannot be avoided except by chance, though it can be repaired in the usual ways.

Vitrioliquid is always kept in a glass vial, for glass is the only known substance through which the liquid cannot eat. If the entire potion is poured out or the vial broken on earth or stone,

10-100 vitrioli appear from the spot at the rate of one each two segments (5 per round). If only part of the liquid is used, the number of creatures appearing is proportionately fewer. If the liquid is poured into a swamp or other mixture of water and abundant plant life, the number of creatures summoned is greater by tenfold (100- 1,000), as the rich muck beneath the water somehow enhances the effect. If the liquid is poured out onto any other substance except glass, it eats its way through and continues downward until it reaches stone or earth.

A sip of vitrioliquid causes 1-6 points of damage; drinking more than a sip is extremely dangerous. The foolish imbiber must roll ld20; a result of 1-19 indicates death (immediate reduction to -20 hit points), and a result of 20 means that the victim survives the experience but with only 14 hit points remaining. This effect supercedes and negates the usual effects of the liquid; no creatures are summoned, and the liquid does not eat its way out of the victim.


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## Shade (Feb 25, 2004)

Here's an initital attempt at the stuff.  Since spellcasting is involved, it seemed more appropriate as a magic item than as an alchemical substance.

*Vitrioliquid:*  Vitrioliquid is always kept in a glass vial, for glass is the only known substance through which the liquid cannot eat. If the entire potion is poured out or the vial broken on earth or stone, 10d10 vitrioli appear from the spot at the rate of 5 per round. If only part of the liquid is used, the number of creatures appearing is proportionately fewer. If the liquid is poured into a swamp or other mixture of water and abundant plant life, the number of creatures summoned is greater by tenfold (10d100), as the rich muck beneath the water somehow enhances the effect. If the liquid is poured out onto any other substance except glass, it eats its way through and continues downward until it reaches stone or earth. 

A sip of vitrioliquid deals 1d6 points of acid damage to the imbiber; drinking more than a sip is extremely dangerous. The foolish imbiber must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or die.  A successful save reduces's the imbiber's current hit point total to 14. This effect supercedes and negates the usual effects of the liquid; no creatures are summoned, and the liquid does not eat its way out of the victim.  Strong conjuration; CL Xth; Craft Wondrous Item, Craft (alchemy) X ranks, Knowledge (the planes) X ranks, _animate object, command, flame strike, light_, and _quest_; Price X gp.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

“vitrioliquid” as a magic item rather than alchemical substance sounds good to me.  

should we keep the caveat in there that only clerics can make it?

How about the notes of combining acid, swamp water, and cemetery soil to make it?  And the possible Con drain for the creator?



> If the entire potion is poured out or the vial broken on earth or stone, 10d10 vitrioli appear from the spot at the rate of 5 per round. If only part of the liquid is used, the number of creatures appearing is proportionately fewer.




there’s got to be a better way to more specifically state what happens when using less than 100% of the vial, or else we might as well nix that second line.



> The foolish imbiber must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or die. A successful save reduces the imbiber's current hit point total to 14.




it boggles my mind as to how and why they chose 14 in the first place.  What if he only had 16 hit points in the first place – that’s hardly a punishment!  We need to come up with a better way to hurt the dumbass who would drink this stuff.  

other than those comments, I dig what you did shade-man!    I will reorganize and rewrite some of the text though, since we’re not really supposed to use it verbatim.


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## Shade (Feb 25, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> should we keep the caveat in there that only clerics can make it?



Nah, the prereq of quest shoud take care of it.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> How about the notes of combining acid, swamp water, and cemetery soil to make it? And the possible Con drain for the creator?



I'd leave those out, just to be consistent with other magic item creation.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> there’s got to be a better way to more specifically state what happens when using less than 100% of the vial, or else we might as well nix that second line.



Agreed.  I thought about borrowing from the sovereign glue like thus...

A vial of vitrioliquid, when found, holds anywhere from 1 to 10 ounces of the stuff (1d10).  A newly created vial always contains 10 ounces.  Each ounce used summons 1d10 vitrioli, while using the whole vial at ounce summons 10d10 vitrioli.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it boggles my mind as to how and why they chose 14 in the first place. What if he only had 16 hit points in the first place – that’s hardly a punishment! We need to come up with a better way to hurt the dumbass who would drink this stuff.



I found that odd as well.  Those past versions had so many wacky rules.  Maybe have it do Con damage?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> other than those comments, I dig what you did shade-man!  I will reorganize and rewrite some of the text though, since we’re not really supposed to use it verbatim.



Stop it...you'll make me blush.


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## BOZ (Feb 25, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed.  I thought about borrowing from the sovereign glue like thus...
> 
> A vial of vitrioliquid, when found, holds anywhere from 1 to 10 ounces of the stuff (1d10).  A newly created vial always contains 10 ounces.  Each ounce used summons 1d10 vitrioli, while using the whole vial at ounce summons 10d10 vitrioli.




that'll do it!  



> I found that odd as well.  Those past versions had so many wacky rules.  Maybe have it do Con damage?




you mean like a poizin?


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## BOZ (Feb 26, 2004)

here we go, how about this?

Vitrioliquid: Vitrioliquid is a magical substance that was created to summon vitrioli from their home plane.  There is no other known way to summon these creatures.  This liquid is highly acidic, and will eat through any substance other than glass, stone, or earth.  The vitrioliquid must be kept in a glass vial to keep it contained.

If the vial is shattered or poured out over earth or stone, vitrioli will appear on that spot at a rate of 5 per round.  A vial of vitrioliquid, when found, holds anywhere from 1 to 10 ounces of the stuff (1d10). A newly created vial always contains 10 ounces. Each ounce used summons 1d10 vitrioli, while using the whole vial at once summons a swarm of 10d10 vitrioli.  If the liquid is instead poured into a swamp or other body of water rich with plant life, it will instead summon a horde of 100d10 vitrioli. If the substance falls on or is poured into anything other than glass, it will eat its way through and continue downward until it reaches stone or earth, at will point it will begin to summon vitrioli.

The vitrioli will be enraged upon summoning, but can be controlled by creator who mixed the vitrioliquid if he is physically present at the summoning.  This control requires concentration, and only lasts for a maximum of X rounds.

A sip of vitrioliquid deals 1d6 points of acid damage to the foolish imbiber; drinking more than a sip is extremely dangerous. Vitriolus is highly poisonous, and aside from the acid damage, the creature must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or suffer X Con damage as initial and secondary damage. Even if the save is successful, the creature will still suffer X Con damage.  This effect supercedes and negates the usual effects of the liquid; no creatures are summoned, and the liquid does not eat its way out of the victim. Strong conjuration; CL Xth; Craft Wondrous Item, Craft (alchemy) X ranks, Knowledge (the planes) X ranks, animate object, command, flame strike, light, and quest; Price X gp.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2004)

I like what you've done with it.   I think we need to do something about these parts, though:



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> This liquid is highly acidic, and will eat through any substance other than glass, stone, or earth. The vitrioliquid must be kept in a glass vial to keep it contained.





			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> If the substance falls on or is poured into anything other than glass, it will eat its way through and continue downward until it reaches stone or earth, at will point it will begin to summon vitrioli.



Perhaps we could have it do an amount of acid damage to objects.   Acid deals normal damage to objects and bypasses hardness.  Maybe we can find some inspiration from the black pudding's acid:

*Acid (Ex):* The creature secretes a digestive acid that dissolves organic material and metal quickly, but does not affect stone. Any melee hit or constrict attack deals acid damage, and the opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless they succeed on DC 21 Reflex saves. A metal or wooden weapon that strikes a black pudding also dissolves immediately unless it succeeds on a DC 21 Reflex save. The save DCs are Constitution-based.
The pudding’s acidic touch deals 21 points of damage per round to wooden or metal objects, but the ooze must remain in contact with the object for 1 full round to deal this damage.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

yes, i think something to that effect would be mucho beneficial.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2004)

Cool.  How about adding the following to the vitrioliquid description:

Vitrioliquid dissolves most material quickly, but does not affect glass, earth, or stone. Vitrioliquid deals X points of damage per round to objects other than glass, earth, or stone.  When vitrioliquid comes into contact with earth or stone, the vitrioli are summoned.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

posting in homebrews...


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2004)

CR 1/4 or 1/2?   They're only deadly to melee-types.  Archers and spellcasters can dispatch them with ease, out of the blast radius.

For weight, a Small ooze paraelemental is 4 feet tall and weights 34 lbs.   So maybe 25 lbs. since these guys are a foot shorter?

I'd rename the Disintegrate ability to "Dissolve".  We wouldn't want a hasty DM to think that they get disentegrate as a spell-like ability, would we?


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

Most basic humanoid races are CR 1/2.  I don’t think these things present as much of a challenge – for one thing, they die very easily.  They are very deadly in numbers though, and will usually appear in great numbers.  You’re right that by avoiding melee they are easily dealt with.  A team of archers will dispatch them very quickly.  I’d say either CR 1/4 or CR 1/3.

For weight, I think these guys would be more like a small earth elemental, which is 80 lbs.  They need at least the “minimum” weight of a Small creature, which is 60 lbs.

Good call on disintegrate.  We don’t want Sean Reynolds to start a rant about us.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Most basic humanoid races are CR 1/2. I don’t think these things present as much of a challenge – for one thing, they die very easily. They are very deadly in numbers though, and will usually appear in great numbers. You’re right that by avoiding melee they are easily dealt with. A team of archers will dispatch them very quickly. I’d say either CR 1/4 or CR 1/3.



Well, a weasel and a kobold are both CR 1/4.   I think one of these fellas is more challenging than either of those guys, so 1/3 may be better.  That puts them in line with the mighty "dog" and Tiny viper.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For weight, I think these guys would be more like a small earth elemental, which is 80 lbs. They need at least the “minimum” weight of a Small creature, which is 60 lbs.



That works for me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Good call on disintegrate. We don’t want Sean Reynolds to start a rant about us.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

Yeah, I was leaning towards 1/3 – that’s why I suggested it.    the thing is, if you are unprepared, they will slaughter a low-level, or even mid-level party.  If you know how to defend yourself and approach them properly, they are even easier to defeat than kobolds.  We don’t want a fighter with rings of fire and acid resistance and Great Cleave to rack up a ton of XP for going toe-to-toe with these things (for him, that would be shooting fish in a barrel).

For advancement, perhaps "---" is the best answer?


----------



## Shade (Feb 27, 2004)

Agreed.   Instead of advancing 'em, just bring in more of 'em.


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## BOZ (Feb 27, 2004)

it looks done other than filling in the various values for the vitrioliquid.  i'll take a look at my DMG for inspiration when i'm at home.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

Forgot to take the time to look at the DMG for inspiration for the vitrioliquid.  The values we need to fill in are:

Damage dealt to objects

# rounds the caster can control vitrioli (I’ll say… 2d4?  Really only need enough time to say “go this way and attack”)

DC for saving throw for idiots drinking it (good ol’ 15 or should it be higher?)

Con damage for drinking it (maybe 2d4 like the acid damage from explode?  Damage on successful save would be half)

Caster level to create

Ranks in Craft and Knowlegde

Price for a vial

suggestions?


----------



## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Damage dealt to objects



10 acid?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> # rounds the caster can control vitrioli (I’ll say… 2d4? Really only need enough time to say “go this way and attack”)



How about whatever caster level we pick for the liquid?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> DC for saving throw for idiots drinking it (good ol’ 15 or should it be higher?)



15 should suffice.  That puts it in the middle of the ingested poisons DC range.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Con damage for drinking it (maybe 2d4 like the acid damage from explode? Damage on successful save would be half)



2d4 sounds good.  If its like poizin, it should negate, but still require the secondary save.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Caster level to create



The highest spell level in the prereqs is 6, so 11th-level would be the minimum.   Shall we go with 11?  [That would make the duration I suggested be 11 rounds].



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ranks in Craft and Knowledge



10?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Price for a vial



Single use, use-activated: 6 (Spell level) x 11 (caster level) x 50 gp = 3,300 gp.  We could raise it a bit since it can be more than single use.


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

I’ll go with most of that.  For duration of control, I’ll say actual caster level instead of minimum caster level.  So a Wiz 15 could control these things for 15 rounds.  Capice?

For the “poison” damage… well, it is _like_ poizin, but it is not actually a poison.  If we go 2d4 damage on a failed Fort save, you’re still pouring an acidic substance down your throat so you take half damage.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I’ll go with most of that. For duration of control, I’ll say actual caster level instead of minimum caster level. So a Wiz 15 could control these things for 15 rounds. Capice?



Capice.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For the “poison” damage… well, it is _like_ poizin, but it is not actually a poison. If we go 2d4 damage on a failed Fort save, you’re still pouring an acidic substance down your throat so you take half damage.



OK, I see where you're coming from now.  The "Damage on successful save would be half" part was what I had concerns with (thinking you meant half the Con damage).


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

Hey pison!

Hmm, just to set it straight… were we going to do Con damage or just straight up acid damage if you swallow it?

If Con damage, I support 2d4 with 1d4 on successful save.

If acid damage, I support a more deadly effect, like 2d6 or 2d8, and half that on a successful save.


----------



## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

Yowza!  I figured we were doing acid damage on a sip, Con damage if swallowed and a failed Fort save, and acid damage if swallowed and a successful save.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

*spins around and faints*


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

*applies smelling salts*

Perhaps this helps visualize what I was thinking:

"A sip of vitrioliquid deals 1d6 points of acid damage to the foolish imbiber; drinking more than a sip is extremely dangerous. Vitriolus is highly poisonous, and aside from the acid damage, the creature must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or suffer 2d4 Con damage as initial and secondary damage. Even if the save is successful, the creature will still suffer 2d8 points of acid damage. This effect supercedes and negates the usual effects of the liquid; no creatures are summoned, and the liquid does not eat its way out of the victim. "

However, if it relieves the pressure, either method works for me.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

Actually, I like the way you wrote it just fine.  I was starting to think along those lines yesterday evening as I considered what to do with it.  I’m not sure there is any great way to handle it, but maybe this would be the best.  

updating…


----------



## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

so what up - does it look done?  am i missing anything?


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

I think it's finished.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 3, 2004)

yay!  then we finish prometheus and we have 10 more to add!


----------



## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

Sweetrock of Gibraltar!


----------



## thom99 (Mar 9, 2004)

*Vampiric Mist*

Hey Boz!  I hope I'm not stepping on too many toes here, but I've *always* loved this guy, and this is my recent workup on him.  I was getting ready to throw him at my PCs soon.   Please feel free to rip, tear, & shred this if you've got a better idea (I couldn't find a way to ask you to convert on on the CC website - so I had to take a stab at it).

Vampiric Mist  medium Aberration    
HD:  3D8+3 (17hp)		
Alignment:  always NE
Initiative: +6 (dex+feat)					
Speed:  Fly 40ft, (20ft after satiated)
AC:16  (+2 Dex, +4 Deflection)   13 (+1Dex +2 Deflection–after satiation)
Attacks/Grapple:  touch +3 / +3				
Damage: special
Face/Reach: 5ft/5ft
Special Attacks:  engulf
Special Qualities: darkvision 60’, Damage Reduction 5/magic,  susceptibility 
Saves:  Fort+04  Reflex+03  Will+03 
Spell Resistance: n/a
Abilities:  S12/D14/C12/I10/W10/Ch10
Skills: Hide +08 (4pt+feat)  Listen +02 (2pt)  Move Silently +10 (6pt+feat)
Feats: 2  Improved Initiative,  Stealthy(+2 hide & MS)
Climate/Terrain: temperate swamp/marsh & subterranean
Organization:  Solitiary		
Challenge Rating: 3
Treasure: ??				
Advancement: 4–6 HD (med)

Combat: a  Vampiric mist attacks by engulfing a foe with its body & draining the victim of all his body fluids.

*Engulf *(Ex):  if successful in a touch attack, as a standard action can attempt to engulf a medium–sized or smaller creature; this involves a grapple check that does not provoke an AOO.  If it succeeds in the grapple, it drains 1D2 CON every round as long as it maintains the grapple.  After it drains 8 points on CON, it is satiated & disengages. 

*Susceptibility:*  after draining 8 points of CON, the ‘mist moves at 20ft, and has AC13 for 1 hour.

So let me know where you were going, and if this is in the same general direction?

thomas cooper
thomas@jtbs.net


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

thanks thom!  i was actually going to work on this monster in another thread, starting in a few days (when i can get my stuff together!), so i will move this post to that thread at that time.    keep an eye out for that!


----------



## thom99 (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks Boz!  I'll keep an eye out for it!  

thomas cooper


----------



## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

hope so!  we'll start on that one most likely between thursday to saturday, but if i can squeak it in i might just start it tonight.    i've been trying to learn not to make promises about things like that, as i often don't succeed.


----------



## Shade (Mar 11, 2004)

What's on deck next?   Not really a request, but "Life-Bane Duplicates" sounds intriguing...


----------



## thom99 (Mar 12, 2004)

Hey BOZ!! is *this* where you're gonna post your conversion of the Vampiric Mist?  I'd vote for that next after Shade's idea (or even sooner if you're willing - sorry Shade <sg>!!

thom
thomas@jtbs.net


----------



## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

No problem.  I'm in no hurry on this one.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

You got it fella!  I’ve moved your notes here.  We can form a queue: vampiric mist fist, then horgar/stone-eater, and then life-bane duplicates.    remind me if I forget.

I7

VAMPIRE MIST

FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 4 (8)
MOVE: 12 " (6" after feeding)
HIT DICE: 3
% IN LAIR: 60%
TREASURE TYPE: E
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
	Attack/Defense Modes: Nil/Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: IV/280 + 3 per hp

The vampire mist is related to the crimson death, and is suspected to be the immature form of that horror. It appears as a pale cloud, normally 5-8 feet in diameter but variable in size and density. It is encountered only in bogs, swamps, and similar chill and damp places, including dank subterranean areas.

Healthy vampire mists have maximum hit points (8 per die), but are almost never encountered in this state. A 'mist loses I hp for each 12 hours without feeding, and is thus always hungry when encountered wandering. It regains hit points by enveloping its victim with its gaseous tendrils, and draining the victim's fluids, turning a pink hue after feeding. The 'mist regains I hit point for each 2 points of blood drained, but this is not regeneration.

Though this is the 'mist's primary reason for attacking, it is quite capable of defending itself even when fully sated. The slightest touch of its airy tendril inflicts 1-8 points of damage, draining blood that the monster simply discards.

Non-magical protections are usually of no value against the 'mist's attacks. Character types are thus treated as base AC 10, modified only by Dexterity and magical protections (shields having no effect).

If the 'mist's hit roll is 4 or greater than the minimum needed, its enveloping attempt is successful. No further hit rolls are needed; the 'mist automatically inflicts 1d8 points of damage each round thereafter until it flees or is slain. If the 'mist is struck while its victim is enveloped, the damage from the blow is divided evenly between the victim and the 'mist. An enveloped victim may attack the mist physically, without risk of sharing the damage. However, the enveloping damage is constant, disrupting concentration, and thus preventing the victim's use of spells and most magical devices.

A 'mist can normally be damaged only by magical weapons and spells that affect air, including lightning and magic missile spells. After feeding, however, the monster takes on substance; it slows to 6" rate, its Armor Class drops to 8, and it can then be damaged by normal weapons.


MC5

Mist, Vampiric

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Non-arctic/Swamps and subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: Blood
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE: (D)
ALIGNMENT:	Neutral evil

NO, APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 4 (8 when substantial)
MOVEMENT: 12 (6 when substantial)
HIT DICE: 3
THAC0: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below
SIZE: M (5’-8’ tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 270

These gaseous monsters prey on all living creatures, enveloping them with their gaseous tendrils, then draining the blood for food.

Vampiric mists appear as thick, billowing clouds, five to eight feet in diameter. Color ranges from pale pink when hungry to crimson red when sated. Vampiric mists speak no language, but they communicate through a limited form of telepathy. These creatures reek of old blood and are often smelled before seen.

Combat: Vampiric mists automatically sense the presence of any warm-blooded creature within 50 feet. Hungry mists take the shortest route possible to the victim, navigating by touch, flowing easily over water or through narrow cracks. Their path can be blocked by nonporous obstacles, but vampiric mists are intelligent and if any reasonable path exists they will find it.

All vampiric mists have maximum hit points (8 per die) when full, but they are almost never encountered in this state. For each 12 hours a mist goes unfed, it loses 1 hit point. Vampiric mists whose hit point totals reach 0 due to starvation die. To regain hit points, vampiric mists must drain fresh blood from living victims (hence the mist's name). For each 2 hit points of blood drained, the mist regains 1 hit point.

A vampiric mist may attack one victim per round by reaching out with a gaseous tendril. Targets of a vampiric mist are treated as AC 10. Modify this number by the victim's Dexterity, and by the magical protection worn (+1, +2, etc.) but ignore magical shields, The touch of a vampiric mist drains 1d8 points of blood. A hit 4 above the needed to hit number means the mist has enveloped its victim. Enveloped victims are automatically hit each round until either the mist dies, finishes feeding, or retreats. Attacks by other characters against an enveloping vampiric mist divide their damage evenly - half against the mist, half against the victim. Only the enveloped victim may attack the mist without harm to himself. However, because of the disorienting effect of rapid blood loss, enveloped victims may not use any spells or magical devices that require concentration.

While blood draining is mainly used to feed, the ability can also be used in defense by sated vampiric mists. Extra blood is simply dumped upon the ground.

Normally, a vampiric mist is damaged only by magical weapons or by spells that effect air. Lightning bolt and magic missile are also effective. However, immediately after reaching maximum hit points a vampiric mist takes on substance. This substantial stage
last 1d6 turns. During this time the mist's movement rate slows to 6, its AC drops to 8, and it may be hit by normal weapons.

Blood draining is not a form of regeneration; a mist that loses hit points in combat must heal those points normally. Keep track of a mist's current hit points and its maximum possible for that combat (this total starts at 24 and goes down with damage caused to the mist). Each time the mist is wounded, reduce both the current hit points and the maximum. If the current hit point total ever reaches 0, the mist dies. Hit points gained by draining blood are added to the current hit points, which cannot exceed the maximum total (24 minus damage to the mist). Hit points lost due to starvation are subtracted from the current hit points only. The current hit points may never exceed the mist's maximum hit point total. (After the current battle is over, the maximum hit point totals for any surviving mists return to 24.)

Habitat/Society: These dread monsters inhabit both swamps, where they creep along mixing in with morning and night fog, and subterranean caverns, where they stalk prey in absolute darkness. Vampiric mists attack at night or early morning, flowing over the ground in search of warm-blooded victims. They prefer lone victims, but hungry mists sometimes raid towns at night, slaying livestock and draining victims in their sleep, before slipping out at dawn.

Ecology: First thought to be immature forms of crimson death, it is now known that these fiends were deliberately created by a powerful vampire wizard.

Vampiric mists reproduce via division. A mist is 10% likely to divide during its substantial stage immediately after feeding. The two mists created have 3 Hit Dice each, but only 4 hit points per die (thus they are born ravenously hungry).

Vampiric mists prey on all warm-blooded creatures. No animals hunt vampiric mist deliberately, though stirges, leeches, and other bloodsuckers are sometimes drawn (fatally) to their smell. Vampiric mists have no known life span. They live until they starve, are slain, or reproduce.


some preliminary stats for the vampire mist:

*Mist, Vampiric*
Medium Aberration?
Hit Dice: 3d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: Tendril (touch) +X melee (drain blood)
Full Attack: Tendril (touch) +X melee (drain blood)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: drain blood, envelop
Special Qualities: damage reduction (10?)/(magic?), immunities, satiation, sense blood, telepathy (weak)
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 12
Feats: 2

Environment: Temperate and warm marsh and underground
Organization: Solitary or (1-3)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X (Standard?)
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: +X

COMBAT
Originally found in module I7 – Baltron’s Beacon (1985, Philip Meyers) and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## Filby (Mar 12, 2004)

I think Aberration is an appropriate type, yeah... like the fogwarden in the CC and ToH. Fits better than Undead, Outsider, or Elemental (the other likely choices), I think.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

> The vampire mist is related to the crimson death, and is suspected to be the immature form of that horror.



I find this hilarious, since the crimson death is an undead creature.   I guess I'll start referring to my elf character as "the immature form of a baelnorn".   

I'd go with aberration or elemental.  Its relationship to the crimson death reminds me of that of the phiuhl from the Fiend Folio to elementals.


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## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

really, the crimson death is considered an undead?  wacky!


----------



## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

Comparing thom99’s version to what I have so far:

Aberration it is.    I find it odd that crimson deaths are considered undead – they never were before, were they?  I don’t remember ever thinking of them that way, despite the original drawing from the old MM2.  

Still, as suggested by the text, the creatures do have a lot of similarities, so we can borrow some things from the crimson death in the 3E MM2.  to support this, I’m going to take this line from MC5 to heart: “First thought to be immature forms of crimson death, it is now known that these fiends were deliberately created by a powerful vampire wizard.”

thom99’s suggesting DR 5/magic.  I looked under the gaseous form spell, and noted that it gives you DR 10/magic.  it could go either way, I’d imagine, but I do think magic weapons should be the component.

Making them incorporeal gives them that nifty deflection bonus, and a gaseous creature doesn’t make a lot of sense having a natural armor bonus.  How can we keep the creature consisting of matter but still having an AC of 16?  It doesn’t need a Dex of 22…

Improved Initiative and Stealthy as feats, that might work (definitely keep Stealthy)

Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, that might be sufficient though I would add Search and/or Spot (just cause I like everything to see and hear!)  

Ability scores Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
We might negate the Strength score, and I’m not sure if I want to use a use a grapple check, but if so we can always increase the Cha score and use that instead.  Otherwise, I guess the rest of those scores look allright.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Aberration it is.  I find it odd that crimson deaths are considered undead – they never were before, were they? I don’t remember ever thinking of them that way, despite the original drawing from the old MM2.



I always assumed that they were undead, basically spirits.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Still, as suggested by the text, the creatures do have a lot of similarities, so we can borrow some things from the crimson death in the 3E MM2. to support this, I’m going to take this line from MC5 to heart: “First thought to be immature forms of crimson death, it is now known that these fiends were deliberately created by a powerful vampire wizard.”



So now they're fiends?   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> thom99’s suggesting DR 5/magic. I looked under the gaseous form spell, and noted that it gives you DR 10/magic. it could go either way, I’d imagine, but I do think magic weapons should be the component.



I'd go with 10/magic...all the creatures that emulate gaseous form have that.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Making them incorporeal gives them that nifty deflection bonus, and a gaseous creature doesn’t make a lot of sense having a natural armor bonus. How can we keep the creature consisting of matter but still having an AC of 16? It doesn’t need a Dex of 22…



Check out the phiuhl in the FF.  It's a gaseous aberrations with...natural armor.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Improved Initiative and Stealthy as feats, that might work (definitely keep Stealthy)



That works for me.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: Hide, Listen, Move Silently, that might be sufficient though I would add Search and/or Spot (just cause I like everything to see and hear!)



Spot.  Search is really only useful for rogues, trackers, and secret-door seekers.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ability scores Str 12, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10
> We might negate the Strength score, and I’m not sure if I want to use a use a grapple check, but if so we can always increase the Cha score and use that instead. Otherwise, I guess the rest of those scores look allright.



Once again, look to the phiuhl:  Str 11, Dex 20, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10.   Its got a Strength score, and crazy-high Dex.

I pity the fool that don't look at the phiuhl.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 12, 2004)

i guess these guys will wind up being some sort of amalgam between the crimson death and phiuhl.


----------



## thom99 (Mar 13, 2004)

Sorry I'm late to the party!  

I'm *quite*  happy with 10/magic, I was going with 5/magic based on the coversion from 3.0 to 3.5 guide about monster stats.

The guide also mentioned about how to figure AC (usually CR + 13); I was shooting for a CR3 creature so that's how I arrived at AC16.  Natural armor *does*  sound kinda funky for a mist, but Shade's example does give us some wiggle room.

I agree with the spot, I didn't think it that far in my earlier example.  This looks *great*  so far guys!

thom


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## Filby (Mar 13, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Aberration it is.    I find it odd that crimson deaths are considered undead – they never were before, were they?  I don’t remember ever thinking of them that way, despite the original drawing from the old MM2.




It's odd, I know, but the 2E MM insinuated that crimson deaths are linked to vampires: when a person's physical remains is animated as a vampire, the spectral remains become a crimson mist, and that each vampire has a crimson mist counterpart.

Which I think is a pretty loopy idea.

I'm rather glad that they dropped that concept in 3E.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

I’m thinking a raise in Dex might be necessary – maybe 19?

As for the “redeadening”    I could find no reference in the old MM2 that suggested anything to do with a crimson death being undead.  I looked through the monstrous manual, however, and found this:

“Legends tell of a connection between crimson deaths and vampires. One tale suggests that, when an undead vampire is destroyed, its spirit is transformed into a crimson death. Another tale suggests that, when a vampire is created, the monster's lost soul is reborn elsewhere as a crimson death. This legend also suggests that a vampire may be restored to normal life if it is rejoined by its crimson death counterpart. A third legend says that extremely evil air elementals are condemned and cast out into the Prime Material plane in the forms of crimson deaths.”

Which does not prove that it is undead at all, since the best it has are “legends.”  So, while it could be undead, elemental, or even outsider, I’d still say that aberration works best.


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

19 Dex sounds about right.


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## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampire mist drains blood, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage on a successful tendril attack.  The vampire mist craves blood, so it usually presses its attack until it can deal at least 8 points of Constitution damage.

For the Envelop attack, does it sound like the crimson death’s seize, a gelatinous cube’s engulf, a simple grapple check, or something else altogether?



			
				I7 said:
			
		

> If the 'mist's hit roll is 4 or greater than the minimum needed, its enveloping attempt is successful. No further hit rolls are needed; the 'mist automatically inflicts 1d8 points of damage each round thereafter until it flees or is slain. If the 'mist is struck while its victim is enveloped, the damage from the blow is divided evenly between the victim and the 'mist. An enveloped victim may attack the mist physically, without risk of sharing the damage. However, the enveloping damage is constant, disrupting concentration, and thus preventing the victim's use of spells and most magical devices.






			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> A vampiric mist may attack one victim per round by reaching out with a gaseous tendril. Targets of a vampiric mist are treated as AC 10. Modify this number by the victim's Dexterity, and by the magical protection worn (+1, +2, etc.) but ignore magical shields. The touch of a vampiric mist drains 1d8 points of blood. A hit 4 above the needed to hit number means the mist has enveloped its victim. Enveloped victims are automatically hit each round until either the mist dies, finishes feeding, or retreats. Attacks by other characters against an enveloping vampiric mist divide their damage evenly - half against the mist, half against the victim. Only the enveloped victim may attack the mist without harm to himself. However, because of the disorienting effect of rapid blood loss, enveloped victims may not use any spells or magical devices that require concentration.




also, should the tendril attack be a touch attack or regular melee?


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

I'd mimic the crimson death's ability, since they are related.

Melee touch sounds right for tendrils.


----------



## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

On second thought, I don’t really like the seize for these guys.  Automatically on any hit, a crimson death (sort of) grapples the opponent.  That, and it says nothing about maintaining a hold to get automatic damage.  Maybe it should be something more along the lines of improved grab (but not necessarily that)?

(PS, check out the responses i posted to the other threads below)


----------



## Shade (Mar 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> On second thought, I don’t really like the seize for these guys. Automatically on any hit, a crimson death (sort of) grapples the opponent. That, and it says nothing about maintaining a hold to get automatic damage. Maybe it should be something more along the lines of improved grab (but not necessarily that)?



Check out the belker's smoke form and smoke claws abilities.   Would this work here?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> (PS, check out the responses i posted to the other threads below)



Did I reply to all the ones you were referring to?


----------



## BOZ (Mar 15, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Check out the belker's smoke form and smoke claws abilities. Would this work here?




i'll have a look.  



> Did I reply to all the ones you were referring to?




seems that way.  

Whatever shall we do about these?  



			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Vampiric mists automatically sense the presence of any warm-blooded creature within 50 feet.






			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Hungry mists take the shortest route possible to the victim, navigating by touch, flowing easily over water or through narrow cracks. Their path can be blocked by nonporous obstacles, but vampiric mists are intelligent and if any reasonable path exists they will find it.






			
				I7 said:
			
		

> Healthy vampire mists have maximum hit points (8 per die), but are almost never encountered in this state. A 'mist loses 1 hp for each 12 hours without feeding, and is thus always hungry when encountered wandering. It regains hit points by enveloping its victim with its gaseous tendrils, and draining the victim's fluids, turning a pink hue after feeding. The 'mist regains I hit point for each 2 points of blood drained, but this is not regeneration.






			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> All vampiric mists have maximum hit points (8 per die) when full, but they are almost never encountered in this state. For each 12 hours a mist goes unfed, it loses 1 hit point. Vampiric mists whose hit point totals reach 0 due to starvation die. To regain hit points, vampiric mists must drain fresh blood from living victims (hence the mist's name). For each 2 hit points of blood drained, the mist regains 1 hit point.






			
				I7 said:
			
		

> A 'mist can normally be damaged only by magical weapons and spells that affect air, including lightning and magic missile spells.






			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Normally, a vampiric mist is damaged only by magical weapons or by spells that effect air. Lightning bolt and magic missile are also effective. However, immediately after reaching maximum hit points a vampiric mist takes on substance.






			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Blood draining is not a form of regeneration; a mist that loses hit points in combat must heal those points normally. Keep track of a mist's current hit points and its maximum possible for that combat (this total starts at 24 and goes down with damage caused to the mist). Each time the mist is wounded, reduce both the current hit points and the maximum. If the current hit point total ever reaches 0, the mist dies. Hit points gained by draining blood are added to the current hit points, which cannot exceed the maximum total (24 minus damage to the mist). Hit points lost due to starvation are subtracted from the current hit points only. The current hit points may never exceed the mist's maximum hit point total. (After the current battle is over, the maximum hit point totals for any surviving mists return to 24.)


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

just to prove i'm serious, i did have a look.  

smoke claws, yes, with some modification of course.

as to smoke form, we can't port that as easily as we did with the vapor rat.  the vampire mist is always gaseous, and i'm not even sure that it isn't still mostly gaseous when it is sated and bloody.    still, i bet we can use part of that.

combining "smoke claws" with the crimson death's attack and adding some herbs and spices, we get:

Envelop (Ex): A vampire mist can engulf opponents by moving on top of them, as a standard action.  It fills the air around one Medium or smaller opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity.  The two creatures are not considered grappled, but the opponent can break free and leave the vampire mist’s space with a successful Escape Artist or grapple check (DC X?).  So long as an opponent remains enveloped in a vampire mist, the mist can automatically hit with its tendril attack each round.


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## thom99 (Mar 16, 2004)

Yes!!  *That's* what *I* was having trouble with; how to handle the mechanics of the 'mist's actual envelop/engulf attack.  BTW, have you thought of the mechanics for how the enveloped PC's allies attack the engaged pair?  The Greyhawk MC states that an enveloped victim takes half the damage inflicted - do we want to deal with that?

If Dex19 sounds better than natural armor, that's fine by me.  That gives the 'mist an AC of 14, assuming no natural armor, right?

Aberration makes sense to me, too.

thom


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

sometimes it just takes a little thought, but with enough discussion we usually get things right around here…

as far as accidentally attacking engulfed allies… I’m sure I must have seen rules for something similar to that before.  At the very least, I think I wrote something like that into one of our recent conversions (the shiere eladrin).

As for raising the Dex to 19, part of the reason I did that is so that when the monster is sated, we can set the Dex to 10.  since the AC drop was by 4 before, that would be an equal drop now without having to change the natural AC or anything.  

more thoughts on my last 2 or 3 posts?


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

> Vampiric mists automatically sense the presence of any warm-blooded creature within 50 feet.



Detect Living (Sp):  Vampiric mists continuously use detect living, as the _detect undead_ spell, except that instead of undead creatures, it reveals living creatures (caster level Xth).



> Hungry mists take the shortest route possible to the victim, navigating by touch, flowing easily over water or through narrow cracks. Their path can be blocked by nonporous obstacles, but vampiric mists are intelligent and if any reasonable path exists they will find it.



Flavor text or as part of gaseous form or similar ability?



> Healthy vampire mists have maximum hit points (8 per die), but are almost never encountered in this state. A 'mist loses 1 hp for each 12 hours without feeding, and is thus always hungry when encountered wandering. It regains hit points by enveloping its victim with its gaseous tendrils, and draining the victim's fluids, turning a pink hue after feeding. The 'mist regains I hit point for each 2 points of blood drained, but this is not regeneration.



Since blood drain grants temporary hit points, just have them start with a number of temporary hit points, and have them disappear at the normal rate.



> Normally, a vampiric mist is damaged only by magical weapons or by spells that effect air. Lightning bolt and magic missile are also effective. However, immediately after reaching maximum hit points a vampiric mist takes on substance.



Maybe make them vulnerable to force effects, electricity, and spells with the Air descriptor?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Envelop (Ex): A vampire mist can engulf opponents by moving on top of them, as a standard action. It fills the air around one Medium or smaller opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity. The two creatures are not considered grappled, but the opponent can break free and leave the vampire mist’s space with a successful Escape Artist or grapple check (DC X?). So long as an opponent remains enveloped in a vampire mist, the mist can automatically hit with its tendril attack each round.



Looking' good.


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Detect Living (Sp): Vampiric mists continuously use detect living, as the detect undead spell, except that instead of undead creatures, it reveals living creatures (caster level Xth).




hmm, not sure about that.  I think it should be spelled out.  And I think it would definitely be warm-blood they’re looking for.  Reptiles and plant-creatures, while living, just won’t do.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

That could be tough to do, considering the "bloodedness" of most creatures is not known.  I suppose you could rule out plants and creatures with the Reptilian subtype, as well as the usual non-living undead and constructs.


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

and elementals.

i think that's something we can leave up to the DM.  it's sort of like how sharks can smell fresh blood, only these guys can sense it even inside of living creatures.


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

God, completely forgot this from the phiuhl:

Gaseous Form (Ex): A vampire mist’s insubstantial form grants it immunity to critical hits.  A vampire mist cannot run, but it can fly, and it is subject to winds.  It cannot ever wear armor, manipulate solid objects, or enter water or other liquids.  It can pass through small holes or narrow openings – even mere cracks.  It also can occupy squares occupied by enemies.

Should we also make it immune to flanking?



> Maybe make them vulnerable to force effects, electricity, and spells with the Air descriptor?




we could say something to the effect of: Vampire mists are immune to physical damage from all spells and magical effects, except for force effects, electricity, and any spells intended to effect air.



> Since blood drain grants temporary hit points, just have them start with a number of temporary hit points, and have them disappear at the normal rate.




hmm, how about some of these…
A vampire mist loses 1 hit point for every 12 hours it spends without feeding.  When a vampire mist has 16 or fewer hit points, it becomes ravenously hungry and begins searching for a victim to drain.
A vampire mist reaches satiation when it has a total of 27 hit points, and can never have more than 27.
At the beginning of any encounter, a vampire mist is likely to have 1d4 fewer hit points than listed above.  
A vampiric mist that reaches 0 hit points due to starvation dies immediately.
A vampiric mist that loses hit points from damage suffered must regain those hit points through healing and cannot regain them from draining blood.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Gaseous Form (Ex): A vampire mist’s insubstantial form grants it immunity to critical hits. A vampire mist cannot run, but it can fly, and it is subject to winds. It cannot ever wear armor, manipulate solid objects, or enter water or other liquids. It can pass through small holes or narrow openings – even mere cracks. It also can occupy squares occupied by enemies.



Looks good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should we also make it immune to flanking?



 I don't see any precedence for it to be, do you?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we could say something to the effect of: Vampire mists are immune to physical damage from all spells and magical effects, except for force effects, electricity, and any spells intended to effect air.



That should cover it.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, how about some of these…
> A vampire mist loses 1 hit point for every 12 hours it spends without feeding. When a vampire mist has 16 or fewer hit points, it becomes ravenously hungry and begins searching for a victim to drain.
> A vampire mist reaches satiation when it has a total of 27 hit points, and can never have more than 27.
> At the beginning of any encounter, a vampire mist is likely to have 1d4 fewer hit points than listed above.
> ...



Are these actual hit points or temporary hit points?


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

i'm not sure about the whole flanking thing.  i was going with the whole "no clear front or back" idea.  elementals and oozes are immune to flanking, so that's where i was coming from.

as far as temporary hit points... well, how exactly do those work?  is there a set forumla we can emulate instead of making up our own?


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## thom99 (Mar 17, 2004)

> i'm not sure about the whole flanking thing. i was going with the whole "no clear front or back" idea. elementals and oozes are immune to flanking, so that's where i was coming from.



  It makes sense to me, because it's gaseous, and you *should* spell it out so DMs don't have to wrangle with their PCs over it  



> as far as temporary hit points... well, how exactly do those work? is there a set forumla we can emulate instead of making up our own?



  What's wrong with giving the mist the maximum hit points to start with, and then (as BOZ suggested) just roll 1D6, 1D8, or even 1D10 for hit points missing at the start of the encounter?  Personally, I'll always decide for myself based on the circumstances, but the die roll would be less headache for DMs using it on the fly...that seems less 'messy' than keeping track of temporary hit points IMHO.

I would *Definitely*  go with the immunity stuff a la the phiul...



> we could say something to the effect of: Vampire mists are immune to physical damage from all spells and magical effects, except for force effects, electricity, and any spells intended to effect air.



  Sounds good to me.  But the devil in me has to ask, will this make it *too* powerful for a CR3 creature - or are you considering bumping its CR up?

It's looking cool, guys!  

thom


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## BOZ (Mar 17, 2004)

I don’t consider bumping the CR to be a problem if it’s worthy.  As it is, I might have to with all the abilities it has now.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm not sure about the whole flanking thing. i was going with the whole "no clear front or back" idea. elementals and oozes are immune to flanking, so that's where i was coming from.



Oh, gotcha.   That would be good to give them, then.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> as far as temporary hit points... well, how exactly do those work? is there a set forumla we can emulate instead of making up our own?



Here's what the SRD says about temporary hit points:
"Certain effects give a character temporary hit points. When a character gains temporary hit points, note his current hit point total. When the temporary hit points go away the character’s hit points drop to his current hit point total. If the character’s hit points are below his current hit point total at that time, all the temporary hit points have already been lost and the character’s hit point total does not drop further."

"When temporary hit points are lost, they cannot be restored as real hit points can be, even by magic."

"Increases in Constitution Score and Current Hit Points: An increase in a character’s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more hit points (an effective hit point increase), but these are not temporary hit points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary hit points are."

Note that the blood drain of vampires gives them temp hp.    The blood drain of stirges and dire weasels gives them no hp, temp or otherwise.


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## thom99 (Mar 23, 2004)

Hey BOZ!  anything you need help on figuring out?  I don't want to step on any toes here! <sg>

thom


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## BOZ (Mar 23, 2004)

no, not at all, post your thoughts.  don't let my lack of time or attention make you think i'm not interested in this one!  i love all my babies.    heh, seriously, all things in due time, but as shade has no doubt learned, posting even when i'm not active on a thread has its benefits as i always come back to it later.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

And, as promised, here I am.    I didn’t mean to leave this thread (and the others) for so long, but hey, sh*t happens.  


Borrowing a bit from the shark, how about:

Sense Blood (Ex): A vampiric mist can sense the presence of warm-blooded creatures in a 50-foot radius and can detect spilt blood at ranges of up to (a mile?).

I’m going to leave it up to DMs to determine what constitutes a warm-blooded creature.


Thom99 (hope you’re still with us, sorry about the delay) brought up a point about attacking engulfed beings.  Here is how we handled that with the noviere eladrin:

If the noviere is able to maintain a hold on the victim, the victim will be at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the Dungeon Master’s Guide for the risks and effects of drowning). A trapped victim can attack the noviere or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. If other characters use edged weapons to attack the noviere while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the noviere. 

While holding a victim, the noviere cannot attack other creatures with its slam, nor can it shift to its humanoid form. It can, however, use its spells, spell-like abilities, and water bolt attack.


OK, shade is probably right about the whole temporary hp thing.  I don’t want them to start out with any extra hp though, but we can have them starting with the listed hp and wanting to add to that.  We could say that a hungry vampire mist is one that has less than 8 hp per die.

So, we’d need to add this line to the blood drain attack: “On each successful attack, the vampiric mist gains X temporary hit points.”  I’d want the X to be maybe 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, or 2d4 rather than a set value.

Some ideas that I posted earlier:
A vampire mist loses 1 hit point for every 12 hours it spends without feeding. When a vampire mist has 16 or fewer hit points, it becomes ravenously hungry and begins searching for a victim to drain.
A vampire mist reaches satiation when it has a total of 27 hit points, and can never have more than 27.
At the beginning of any encounter, a vampire mist is likely to have 1d4 fewer hit points than listed above. 
A vampiric mist that reaches 0 hit points due to starvation dies immediately.
A vampiric mist that loses hit points from damage suffered must regain those hit points through healing and cannot regain them from draining blood.

We could rule that the temporary hp remain indefinitely, but do drain away as a result of its normal 2 hp/day loss.


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## thom99 (Apr 2, 2004)

Welcome back BOZ! 

I like the sense blood writeup, AND the way you've got attacking engulfed beings handled.




> So, we’d need to add this line to the blood drain attack: “On each successful attack, the vampiric mist gains X temporary hit points.”  I’d want the X to be maybe 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, or 2d4 rather than a set value
> 
> A vampire mist loses 1 hit point for every 12 hours it spends without feeding. When a vampire mist has 16 or fewer hit points, it becomes ravenously hungry and begins searching for a victim to drain.
> A vampire mist reaches satiation when it has a total of 27 hit points, and can never have more than 27.
> ...




I would *definitely*  go with the 1D4 for gain of temporary hit points, any more would be too powerful, IMHO...grumble, grumble, I *still*  like the idea of max hit points minus a certain amount determined at the start, but I defer to your greater experience in converting these suckers.  Everything else on the hit points sounds pretty good to me.

Thanks for all the hard work you're doing, Boz!

thom


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

what i meant was that the default encounter would be a vampire mist of the listed hp, now of course a creative DM can always give it more or less hp than that to start with.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Sense Blood (Ex): A vampiric mist can sense the presence of warm-blooded creatures in a 50-foot radius and can detect spilt blood at ranges of up to (a mile?).
> 
> I’m going to leave it up to DMs to determine what constitutes a warm-blooded creature.



I'd stick with a mile for range.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Engulf description



The info ported over from the noviere should work for the mist.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, shade is probably right about the whole temporary hp thing. I don’t want them to start out with any extra hp though, but we can have them starting with the listed hp and wanting to add to that. We could say that a hungry vampire mist is one that has less than 8 hp per die.
> 
> So, we’d need to add this line to the blood drain attack: “On each successful attack, the vampiric mist gains X temporary hit points.” I’d want the X to be maybe 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, or 2d4 rather than a set value.



I agree with Thom99 on 1d4.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Some ideas that I posted earlier:
> A vampire mist loses 1 hit point for every 12 hours it spends without feeding. When a vampire mist has 16 or fewer hit points, it becomes ravenously hungry and begins searching for a victim to drain.
> A vampire mist reaches satiation when it has a total of 27 hit points, and can never have more than 27.
> At the beginning of any encounter, a vampire mist is likely to have 1d4 fewer hit points than listed above.
> ...



This should be added to the blood drain ability, particularly the point at which it is sated.  Look to the stirge for inspiration for wording.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> We could rule that the temporary hp remain indefinitely, but do drain away as a result of its normal 2 hp/day loss.



That should work.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

i'll need to go over how the whole blood drain/satiation thing works in my mind for awhile to see how exactly it should work now.

you want to keep all of this, editing as necessary?


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> If the noviere is able to maintain a hold on the victim, the victim will be at risk of drowning (see Water Dangers in the Dungeon Master’s Guide for the risks and effects of drowning). A trapped victim can attack the noviere or make additional grapple checks to escape its grasp. The character cannot cast spells with a verbal component or use any other item or ability that requires speech. If other characters use edged weapons to attack the noviere while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the noviere.
> 
> While holding a victim, the noviere cannot attack other creatures with its slam, nor can it shift to its humanoid form. It can, however, use its spells, spell-like abilities, and water bolt attack.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

I'd eliminate the references to drowning and speech, as they don't apply to a creature made of mist as they do to a creature made of water.  Otherwise, I think editing the remainder would work.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

While engulfing a victim, the vampire mist cannot attack other creatures with its tendrils or envelop another character. An engulfed victim can attack the vampire mist normally with physical attacks. If other characters use edged weapons to attack the vampire mist while it is holding a victim, those attacks have a 25% chance of hitting the trapped character, and they do no harm to the vampire mist.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

Right on the money.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

posting in homebrews...


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## thom99 (Apr 5, 2004)

Does "posting in homebrews" mean you're done? Just curious...

thom


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

not yet, no.  what it means i that i have posted an updated version of the stats i have so far on this thread, for review by those who are helping me with it:  http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=66577&page=3 (scroll down, it's currently about 2/3 down the way on that page)


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

Some random thoughts...

I would not give it a LA...it has no appendages to wield items, etc.   You can put it up for debate in that other thread if you want.

Telepathy (weak):   Is this meant to be shorter distance than usual telepathy, or something where it can only communicate with others of its kind, or something else entirely?

Weightless seems appropriate.

Since it has no set lair, I'd give it no treasure.

CR 3 is probably right.  It is physically weak for its CR, but the fact that its primary attacks are touch and allow no save earns it.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I would not give it a LA...it has no appendages to wield items, etc.   You can put it up for debate in that other thread if you want.




it’s a fair argument.  I’ll leave it at “---“ unless someone has a better idea.



> Telepathy (weak):   Is this meant to be shorter distance than usual telepathy, or something where it can only communicate with others of its kind, or something else entirely?




MC5 - “Vampiric mists speak no language, but they communicate through a limited form of telepathy.”  That’s all I have to go on for that.



> Weightless seems appropriate.
> 
> Since it has no set lair, I'd give it no treasure.




Crimson death has standard treasure though, and the original vampy mist descriptions gave it either type E or D treasure.



> CR 3 is probably right.  It is physically weak for its CR, but the fact that its primary attacks are touch and allow no save earns it.




right on.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> MC5 - “Vampiric mists speak no language, but they communicate through a limited form of telepathy.” That’s all I have to go on for that.



How about telepathy 50 ft. (instead of the "usual" 100 ft.)?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Crimson death has standard treasure though, and the original vampy mist descriptions gave it either type E or D treasure.



Ahh, but:  "a crimson death usually carries the bodies of its victims back to its lair, which is a charnel-house piled with the corpses and treasure of its victims."

I just don't know where you'd find vampy's treasure.  :\


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

you're right.  there is no mention made at all of any lair.  the vampire mist doesn't (usually) consume victims whole, just take enough to be satisfied and then leave.  i'll leave treasure as "none".


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

Did a bit of rewriting to tie these powers in together better.  Let me know how this works now:

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampiric mist drains blood, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage on a successful tendril attack.  The vampire mist craves blood, so it usually presses its attack until it can deal at least 8 points of Constitution damage.

On each successful attack, the vampiric mist gains 1d4 temporary hit points, which remain until lost from hunger or from taking damage. A vampire mist will reach satiation when it has its maximum of 9 hit points per hit die (27 hit points for a standard mist) and will disengage its attack. A vampiric mist that loses hit points from damage suffered must regain those hit points through healing and cannot regain them from draining blood.

Hunger (Ex): A vampiric mist begins to starve not long after feeding.  For every 12 hours since it has last drained blood, a vampire mist will lose one hit point.  When the vampire mist reaches its normal hit point total, it becomes ravenously hungry, and must search for a victim to drain.  A vampire mist that reaches 0 hit points due to starvation dies immediately.

Satiation (Ex): When a vampire mist has drained enough blood to become sated, it becomes more substantial and its weight makes it slower.  The vampire mist’s fly speed drops to 20 feet, its Dexterity score drops to 10, and it loses its damage reduction.  These limitations persist for 1d6 minutes, at which point the creature starts to hunger again.


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## thom99 (Apr 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> The two creatures are not considered grappled, but the opponent can break free and leave the vampire mist’s space with a successful Escape Artist or grapple check (DC X?).




I *think* the DC is just a normal grapple combat between the 'mist and its target, and therefore doesn't have a DC involved.

This looks like a winner!  

thom


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

thom99 said:
			
		

> I *think* the DC is just a normal grapple combat between the 'mist and its target, and therefore doesn't have a DC involved.



Good catch!


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

yeah, that does make sense.  

any thoughts on my last post above?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> yeah, that does make sense.
> 
> any thoughts on my last post above?



It all looks good to me.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

Close, but there was a little bit that I needed to fix:

Blood Drain (Ex): A vampiric mist drains blood, dealing 1d3 points of Constitution damage on a successful tendril attack.  The vampire mist craves blood, so it usually presses its attack until it can deal at least 8 points of Constitution damage.

On each successful attack, the vampiric mist gains 1d4 temporary hit points, which remain until lost from hunger or from taking damage. A vampire mist will reach satiation when it has its maximum hit points (usually 9 hit points per hit die, or 27 hit points for a standard, undamaged mist) and will disengage its attack. A vampiric mist’s maximum number of hit points is lowered by the number of hit points it has suffered from physical damage; such hit points can only be regained through normal healing and a vampire mist cannot regain them from draining blood.

Hunger (Ex): A vampiric mist begins to starve not long after feeding.  For every 12 hours since it has last drained blood, a vampire mist will lose one hit point.  When the vampire mist reaches its normal hit point total, it becomes ravenously hungry, and must search for a victim to drain.  A vampire mist that reaches 0 hit points due to starvation dies immediately.

Satiation (Ex): When a vampire mist has drained enough blood to become sated, it becomes more substantial and its weight makes it slower.  The vampire mist’s flight speed drops to 20 feet, its Dexterity score drops to 10, and it loses its damage reduction.  These limitations persist for 1d6 minutes, at which point the creature returns to normal.

Now, I’m satisfied!


----------



## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

But are you _sated_?


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

nope!  time to drain your blood...


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

heh...

about the only thing i see left to fix is skills.  how about this (keeping in mind Stealthy feat, and Dex bonus of +4):

Skills: Hide +6*, Listen +4, Move Silently +8, Spot +6

Skills: *A vampire mist’s misty form makes it difficult to spot in fog.  Before feeding, the creature receives a +8 bonus on Hide checks in smoky or foggy areas.  When sated, the bonus drops to +4 because of its red coloration.


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

and updated in homebrews.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

I couldn't find anything in need of fixin'.


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## thom99 (Apr 7, 2004)

GOOD one Shade  

I can't see anything else you need to cover; I like the skills just fine-let's wrap this sucker up and move on to the whipsting!  

Thanks for all the hard work guys!  I'll be using our friendly 'mist *very* soon!  

thom


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

glad you like it thom!  you should stick around and help us out in our other threads too.  

i did promise the whipsting didn't i?  but wasn't that one for the other thread? (hell, if need be, i can make a "special request" thread to stick it on, if you need it in a hurry)

let's have a look at page 1 and see what's left... oh yes, quite a bit.    and in fact, diaglo mentioned quite a few that i had never even thought/heard of yet, and those needed to be added to our "to do" list...


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> You got it fella! I’ve moved your notes here. We can form a queue: vampiric mist fist, then horgar/stone-eater, and then life-bane duplicates.  remind me if I forget.



Consider this your reminder.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

LOL  that’s right… horgar it is!


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## thom99 (Apr 9, 2004)

OK! OK!  the horgar...then can we "pretty please" consider the whipsting??  Thanks for the efforts guys!

thomas


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## BOZ (Apr 10, 2004)

i'll do you one better than that.  instead of waiting for us to finish the horgar here, i'll squeeze it in here after we finish the frost linnorm: http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=69690&goto=lastpost


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## BOZ (Apr 10, 2004)

Module H2 (1E):

Stone-Eater

(also called horgar by the dwarves and storgin by the gnomes)

Frequency: Very rare 
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: - 10 (head is AC 0) 
Move: 3"
Hit Dice: 30-100 
% in Lair: 10%
Treasure Type: Nil 
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 20d4
Special Attacks: Squirt acid up to 20', radiate intense heat 
Special Defenses: See below 
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Low
Alignment: Neutral
Size: L (30' to 100' long) 
Psionic Ability: Nil
Level/XP Value: X/ 13,200 + 35/hp

The mysterious stone-eater is worshipped as a god by some of the lesser underground races, and it is easy to understand why.

This immense and powerful creature eats its way through the solid rock, creating tunnels and passages in its wake. It does this by a combination of acid excretion and intense body heat (400 to 500 degrees Fahrenheit) that eats away and fuses the rock into a tunnel. When the creature is moving through granite, the tunnels become permanent; when it tunnels through sandstone, the passages collapse behind it. Perhaps thus do the great cavern networks of the Underdark come into being.

The natural armor class of the stone-eater is due to its skin, which is solid rock up to five feet thick. This chitinous exterior is lined with fissures through which the natural acid and heat generated by the creature escape to the surface. Only the head (about 2' in diameter) is exposed. The stone-eater can squirt its acid up to 20' as a weapon, but its other defenses are more formidable. If touched by bare flesh, the skin of the stone-eater causes 10d4 points of heat damage plus 20d4 points of acid damage automatically.

Any edged weapon strikes the stone-eater for half-normal damage and must roll on the Saving Throw Matrix for Magical and Nonmagical items (DMG, pg. 80) against crushing blow and then against acid. Non-edged weapons must roll on the matrix against acid.

The creature is immune to acid-, fire-, and electrical-based magical attacks.

It is easy to detect a fresh stone-eater tunnel, because it radiates heat for up to 24 hours after the creature's passage. For up to three hours, the walls are dangerously hot, causing 1d20 points of damage if touched by bare flesh. Pools of liquid form at the bottom of the tunnel; those are pure acid. If stepped in, they cause 10d4 points of damage to bare flesh and cause any other items to roll on the matrix, as above.

Some of the more powerful evil races of the Underdark have managed to domesticate the stone-eaters. The creatures are imprisoned in glass-lined pits. To move the creatures in the proper direction , either to carve a new tunnel or attack an enemy formation, the keepers use long, thin	spears to slip through the narrow cracks in the stone skin and prod the sensitive flesh below. This is not a recommended technique for amateurs; even skilled horgarin (as the keepers are called) sometimes fall victim to their captives.

A stone-eater lays eggs once each 500 years. The eggs are kept in a small cavern deep beneath the earth, normally with only one passage leading to them. The eggs look like small boulders, but radiate heat and ooze acid. They are worth 10,000 gp to alchemists and magical researchers in major centers of learning.

A young stone-eater is of the smallest size and grows approximately 1 HD per year until it reaches full-size. The size of a stone-eater is approximately one foot for every HD. There are rumors of ancient stone-eaters that are much larger than those described here, but no one has seen them and lived. But there are immense corridors through the rock in certain areas of Deepearth that look suspiciously familiar....

Description: The stone-eater looks like a giant rock slug. When not moving, it resembles a cooled-down lava formation.


MC5 (2E):

Horgar

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any/Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Rocks or earth
INTELLIGENCE: Semi (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: - 10 (head is AC 0)
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 30 to 100
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 20-80
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Squirt acid
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Intense heat
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (30'-100' long)
MORALE: Fearless (19-20)
XP VALUE: 30 HD: 26,000
(add 1,000/HD above 30)

This immense and powerful creature eats its way through solid rock, creating tunnels, passageways, and caverns in its wake. When not in motion, a horgar resembles a lava formation. In motion it looks like a giant, black rock slug. It is an oblong lump with a thick skin of true stone (five feet thick in an adult). Great cracks in the skin divide it into large plates that shift and slide when the horgar is moving, The only, exposed part is the head, located at one end of the oblong, which is just a lump of softer-looking stone.

The horgar smells like the super-heated acid that it secretes from between its rock plates, somewhat like ammonia. The gases make other creatures' eyes water and irritate their mouths and nasal passages. The only sounds it makes are the grinding of its skin against the tunnel walls and the hiss of acid and heat melting rock.

Combat: The horgar is not an aggressive creature. The main problem is that it does not recognize most living creatures, at all. If unprovoked, it goes its own way, whether or not somebody is in the way. If attacked, it tries to leave. The tunnels it leaves behind are dangerously hot for the first three hours, causing 2d10 points of damage if touched by bare flesh. Wood or paper that come in contact with a hot wall ignite instantly; metal that is in contact with the wall for one turn can cause 2d10 points of burn damage. The walls are still hot, but not dangerous, for a full 24 hours after the horgar passes. The tunnel is also littered with pools of acid, which cause 1d4x10 points of damage to bare flesh. Other objects must roll successful saving throws vs. acid or be destroyed.

This creature is immune to acid, fire, and electrical attacks. Striking it with physical weapons is like hitting a granite boulder. Edged weapons cause only half damage and must roll saving throws vs. crushing blow. All weapons must roll saving throws vs. acid, which means edged weapons must roll two saving throws for each hit. Failure of either saving throw means the weapon is destroyed, either shattered or dissolved.

If the horgar can’t run away from attackers, it turns and fights. Its only weapon is to squirt acid from its head up to 20 feet away. At the first opportunity, it again tries to flee, Horgar are so hard to hurt, and so dangerous, that most creature just leave them alone.

Habitat/Society: Horgar live in the deep, hard-rock regions of the earth. On rare occasions they can be found closer to the surface or in softer rock. They do not have any society of their own, but they have affected many other societies. The name horgar is dwarvish, while the gnomes call them storgin: both names translate loosely to stone-eater.

For all the ages that the horgar have been tunneling in the Underdark, thousands of miles of tunnels and caverns are left behind. Other natural conditions, such as running water, have eroded most of them, giving them a natural look. These caverns have become homes to many races.

Some of the more primitive races of the Underdark worship the horgar as gods. Others, such as the dwarves, duergar, drow, gnomes, and the deep gnomes use them as work beasts. The horgar are kept in reinforced, glass-lined pits. They can be driven by slipping thin, glass-sheathed spears between the plates of their skin. This causes no damage, but irritates them sufficiently to make them move away from that side. The handler, called horgarin in dwarvish, must be skilled and quick to avoid having his spear snapped by the sliding plates of the skin. The dwarves have a saying, "as unlucky as a horgarin without a spear:"

Every 500 years, a horgar splits off 2d10 small parts of itself in a deep, hidden cave with only a single entrance. Each egg that is laid subtracts 1 Hit Die from the horgar. They radiate heat and slowly ooze acid. In the next two years the eggs mature into 30-Hit Die infants and become active, hungry, and mobile. After that they grow 1 Hit Die per year until they reach adulthood at 100 Hit Dice. Horgar are roughly one foot long for each Hit Die.

Ecology: The horgar are vital to the ecology of the Underdark. The byproducts of the stone-eaters are breathable gases, acids and other fluids, and various mineral deposits, Without the tunneling horgar, life would not be possible in the Underdark. The
bodies of the horgar provides nothing, of value, except to wizards - some parts of it are used for spells involving earth, stone, digging, and molten heat.


some preliminary stats for a horgar:

*Horgar (Stone-Eater)*
Gargantuan (Aberration? Magical Beast?)
Hit Dice: 30dX+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 30 (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch 16, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: 
Full Attack: Acid squirt +X ranged touch (20d4 acid)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: intense heat, squirt acid
Special Qualities: blindsight/blindsense, immunity to acid, electricity, and fire, damage reduction X/bludgeoning, digest earth
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 7, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 11

Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 31-60 HD (Gargantuan); 61-90 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: +X


A horgar is at least 30 feet long and can grow up to 100 feet in length, and weighs X tons.

COMBAT


Originally found in module H2 – The Mines of Bloodstone (1986, Michael Dobson and Douglas Niles), and Monstrous Compendium MC5 - Greyhawk Appendix (1990).


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

I looked at two MM creatures with "acid-launching" attacks, the ankheg and the bombardier beetle.   The ankheg spits a line, and the bombardier a cone.  Here's what I came up with:

Acid Spray (Ex): When attacked or disturbed, the creature can release a 20-foot cone of acid once per round. Those within the cone must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or take 20d4 points of acid damage.  A successful save halves the damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

We can probably extrapolate the corrosive slime of the delver and the heat of the remorhaz into one ability that sums up the horgar's acid and intense heat.  Here they are for ease of reference...

Corrosive Slime (Ex): A delver produces a mucuslike slime that contains a highly corrosive substance. The slime is particularly effective against stone.

A delver’s mere touch deals 2d6 points of acid damage to organic creatures or objects. Against metallic creatures or objects, a delver’s slime deals 4d8 points of damage, and against stony creatures (including earth elementals) or objects it deals 8d10 points of damage. A slam attack by a delver leaves a patch of slime that deals 2d6 points of damage on contact and another 2d6 points of damage in each of the next 2 rounds. A large quantity (at least a quart) of water or weak acid, such as vinegar, washes off the slime.

An opponent’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless the wearer succeeds on a DC 22 Reflex save. Weapons that strike a delver also dissolve immediately unless the wielder succeeds on a DC 22 Reflex save.

A creature attacking a delver with natural weapons takes damage from its slime each time an attack hits unless the creature succeeds on a DC 22 Reflex save. These save DCs are Constitution-based.

Heat (Ex): An enraged remorhaz generates heat so intense that anything touching its body takes 8d6 points of fire damage. Creatures striking a remorhaz with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, but creatures striking with melee weapons do not take damage from the remorhaz’s heat. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a remorhaz is allowed a DC 18 Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

i'll spend some time looking at this later.  at first i was thinking a line would be good, but then it would take an awfully long time to make a tunnel with just a line of acid!  hey, maybe it can have both?


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2004)

Both would work!


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## BOZ (Apr 16, 2004)

Yes… yes they would!  Muahahahahahahaha!!


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## Shade (Apr 20, 2004)

I think the horgar should be an aberration. 

Suggested ability scores (basically advancing a delver to Gargantuan for physical stats):  Str 35, Dex 13, Con 25, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 8.


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## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

> I think the horgar should be an aberration.




I agree, and not just because of the delver, but because it was my first instinct as well.  



> Suggested ability scores (basically advancing a delver to Gargantuan for physical stats): Str 35, Dex 13, Con 25, Int 7, Wis 14, Cha 8.




Since they’re not related creatures, as far as I know, I’ll allow that.    we might want to make the Dex lower though; I’ll think about that.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

Give it blindsight rather than blindsense, so it can see where it's going.   

Based on its HD and description, I'd go with DR 15/bludgeoning or maybe even 20/.


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## BOZ (Apr 23, 2004)

I don’t think this one has eyes; that’s why I suggested blindsense instead.

Given the HD and size, I’ll go with DR 20/blgn.


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t think this one has eyes; that’s why I suggested blindsense instead.



Right.  That's why I suggested blindsight.     Blindsense is inferior and often given to sighted creatures to help them sense the presence of hidden foes, while blindsight is echolation, and so on.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Given the HD and size, I’ll go with DR 20/blgn.



Sweet.


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## GreyShadow (Apr 24, 2004)

I have to agree with Shade, blindsense makes more sense to me too.


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

Thanks for the agreement, I think, but I suggested blind_sight_.   

WOTC should be poked in the eye for adding such a similar-sounding, similar-usage term to the game.


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

At which point they would have… blindsense or blindsight?


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## Shade (Apr 26, 2004)

SIGHT!!!!


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## BOZ (Apr 26, 2004)

what?  i can't hear you, i'm blind.


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## GreyShadow (Apr 27, 2004)

blindsmell?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2004)

Ok...moving right along... 

Space/Reach:  20 ft./15 ft.

Any thoughts on my earlier post regarding special abilities?


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## BOZ (May 5, 2004)

I haven’t forgotten ya!    following is a good example of why I like to post quotes from multiple sources – the different wording can show different angles on how a monster works.



			
				H2 said:
			
		

> This immense and powerful creature eats its way through the solid rock, creating tunnels and passages in its wake. It does this by a combination of acid excretion and intense body heat (400 to 500 degrees Fahrenheit) that eats away and fuses the rock into a tunnel. When the creature is moving through granite, the tunnels become permanent; when it tunnels through sandstone, the passages collapse behind it. Perhaps thus do the great cavern networks of the Underdark come into being.




maybe…
Heat (Ex): A horgar’s body generates heat so intense that anything touching its body takes 10d4 points of fire damage. Creatures striking a horgar with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, but creatures striking with melee weapons do not take damage from the horgar’s heat. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a horgar is allowed a DC X Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based.

we could also add something about the heat fusing the stone that the acid dissolves, as above.



			
				H2 said:
			
		

> Any edged weapon strikes the stone-eater for half-normal damage and must roll on the Saving Throw Matrix for Magical and Nonmagical items (DMG, pg. 80) against crushing blow and then against acid. Non-edged weapons must roll on the matrix against acid.





			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Striking it with physical weapons is like hitting a granite boulder. Edged weapons cause only half damage and must roll saving throws vs. crushing blow. All weapons must roll saving throws vs. acid, which means edged weapons must roll two saving throws for each hit. Failure of either saving throw means the weapon is destroyed, either shattered or dissolved.




taking the “This immense and powerful creature” paragraph with the ones above, we get something kind of like this:

Corrosive Slime (Ex): A horgar produces a mucuslike slime that contains a highly corrosive substance. The slime is particularly effective against stone.

A horgar’s mere touch deals X points of acid damage to organic creatures or objects. Against metallic creatures or objects, a horgar’s slime deals X points of damage, and against stony creatures (including earth elementals) or objects it deals X points of damage. The passage of a horgar through earth leaves pools of pure acid that form at the bottom of the tunnel.  Any creatures touching these pools with bare flesh take 10d4 points of acid damage.  

A creature’s armor and clothing dissolve and become useless immediately unless the wearer succeeds on a DC X Reflex save. Weapons that strike a horgar or touch one of the pools of acid it leaves behind also dissolve immediately unless the wielder succeeds on a DC X Reflex save.

A creature attacking a horgar with natural weapons takes damage from its slime each time an attack hits unless the creature succeeds on a DC X Reflex save. These save DCs are Constitution-based.



			
				H2 said:
			
		

> The natural armor class of the stone-eater is due to its skin, which is solid rock up to five feet thick. This chitinous exterior is lined with fissures through which the natural acid and heat generated by the creature escape to the surface. Only the head (about 2' in diameter) is exposed.




I’m wondering if we could/should use this in any way?



			
				H2 said:
			
		

> The stone-eater can squirt its acid up to 20' as a weapon, but its other defenses are more formidable. If touched by bare flesh, the skin of the stone-eater causes 10d4 points of heat damage plus 20d4 points of acid damage automatically.





			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> If the horgar can’t run away from attackers, it turns and fights. Its only weapon is to squirt acid from its head up to 20 feet away. At the first opportunity, it again tries to flee, Horgar are so hard to hurt, and so dangerous, that most creature just leave them alone.




Shade suggested an acid spray, while I had a line of acid going as its normal attack mode.  I’m thinking that if we keep both, the line of acid should be its normal attack routine (since it has not other physical attacks), and the acid spray would be a more limited attack that it doesn’t use every round, maybe closer to what the ankheg does.



			
				H2 said:
			
		

> It is easy to detect a fresh stone-eater tunnel, because it radiates heat for up to 24 hours after the creature's passage. For up to three hours, the walls are dangerously hot, causing 1d20 points of damage if touched by bare flesh. Pools of liquid form at the bottom of the tunnel; those are pure acid. If stepped in, they cause 10d4 points of damage to bare flesh and cause any other items to roll on the matrix, as above.





			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The tunnels it leaves behind are dangerously hot for the first three hours, causing 2d10 points of damage if touched by bare flesh. Wood or paper that come in contact with a hot wall ignite instantly; metal that is in contact with the wall for one turn can cause 2d10 points of burn damage. The walls are still hot, but not dangerous, for a full 24 hours after the horgar passes. The tunnel is also littered with pools of acid, which cause 1d4x10 points of damage to bare flesh. Other objects must roll successful saving throws vs. acid or be destroyed.




I’m sure there’s a way to implement this, as a notation somewhere.  I think the acidic remains part are covered above.



			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The horgar smells like the super-heated acid that it secretes from between its rock plates, somewhat like ammonia. The gases make other creatures' eyes water and irritate their mouths and nasal passages.




should we use this or is it just flavor text?


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## GreyShadow (May 5, 2004)

With the pools of acid it leaves behind, would that be normal acid that mad adventurers could collect or special horgar acid?


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## BOZ (May 5, 2004)

you never know.    i think it should be collectable, but of course highly risky.  does acid dry up over time or does it just sit there forever?


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## GreyShadow (May 5, 2004)

I use Nitric acid at work.  It evaporates into a gas as it eats into dripped on.  Apart from glass and a couple of other substances.

If it was nitric acid the horgar was carving its tunnels, I wouldn't want to be in them afterwards.  Not without a lot of fresh air.


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## Shade (May 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Heat (Ex): A horgar’s body generates heat so intense that anything touching its body takes 10d4 points of fire damage. Creatures striking a horgar with natural attacks or unarmed attacks are subject to this damage, but creatures striking with melee weapons do not take damage from the horgar’s heat. This heat can melt or char weapons; any weapon that strikes a horgar is allowed a DC X Fortitude save to avoid destruction. The save DC is Constitution-based.



Lookin' good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> we could also add something about the heat fusing the stone that the acid dissolves, as above.



 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Corrosive Slime (Ex): A horgar produces a mucuslike slime that contains a highly corrosive substance. The slime is particularly effective against stone.
> 
> A horgar’s mere touch deals X points of acid damage to organic creatures or objects. Against metallic creatures or objects, a horgar’s slime deals X points of damage, and against stony creatures (including earth elementals) or objects it deals X points of damage. The passage of a horgar through earth leaves pools of pure acid that form at the bottom of the tunnel. Any creatures touching these pools with bare flesh take 10d4 points of acid damage.
> 
> ...



Nice work! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m wondering if we could/should use this in any way?



High natural armor?   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Shade suggested an acid spray, while I had a line of acid going as its normal attack mode. I’m thinking that if we keep both, the line of acid should be its normal attack routine (since it has not other physical attacks), and the acid spray would be a more limited attack that it doesn’t use every round, maybe closer to what the ankheg does.



I suggested it as an SA rather than a primary attack because both the bombardier beetle and the ankheg had their acid attacks as SAs, not on the attack line.  I couldn't find any critters with acid spray on the attack line (but I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't out there). 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m sure there’s a way to implement this, as a notation somewhere. I think the acidic remains part are covered above.



Perhaps the acid information from the environment section of the DMG could be applied:

"Corrosive acids deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure except in the case of total immersion (such as into a vat of acid), which deals 10d6 points of damage per round. An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster’s spittle, counts as a round of exposure."

"The fumes from most acids are inhaled poisons. Those who come close enough to a large body of acid to dunk a creature in it must make a DC 13 Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage. All such characters must make a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage."

"Creatures immune to acid’s caustic properties might still drown in it if they are totally immersed (see Drowning)."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should we use this or is it just flavor text?



Hmmm...I'm tempted to say no, since acid normally doesn't have that effect.  But part of me says that this is too interesting to pass up.


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## BOZ (May 6, 2004)

Did I just misread “eats its way through the solid rock” as meaning it eats the rock instead of eats it away with acid?



			
				H2 said:
			
		

> It does this by a combination of acid excretion and intense body heat (400 to 500 degrees Fahrenheit) that eats away and fuses the rock into a tunnel.






			
				H2 said:
			
		

> When the creature is moving through granite, the tunnels become permanent; when it tunnels through sandstone, the passages collapse behind it.




Should we use these bits, and if so how?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> High natural armor?




Right, I get that we have the high natural armor, but keep in mind the “solid rock up to five feet thick” is pretty unusual.  Of course, we could always say that the damage reduction accounts for that and be done with it… 



> I suggested it as an SA rather than a primary attack because both the bombardier beetle and the ankheg had their acid attacks as SAs, not on the attack line.  I couldn't find any critters with acid spray on the attack line (but I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't out there).




One thing to keep in mind that differentiates a horgar from other creatures that attack with acid, is that the horgar has no slam or other physical attacks because it lacks appendages.  If it weren’t so danged slow I could even recommend some sort of charge.  For the line of acid attack I’m suggesting something how the arrowhawk’s lightning ray is listed on the attack line (and we’d give a further explanation below).



			
				H2 said:
			
		

> It is easy to detect a fresh stone-eater tunnel, because it radiates heat for up to 24 hours after the creature's passage. For up to three hours, the walls are dangerously hot, causing 1d20 points of damage if touched by bare flesh.





			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The tunnels it leaves behind are dangerously hot for the first three hours, causing 2d10 points of damage if touched by bare flesh. Wood or paper that come in contact with a hot wall ignite instantly; metal that is in contact with the wall for one turn can cause 2d10 points of burn damage. The walls are still hot, but not dangerous, for a full 24 hours after the horgar passes.




could we add these parts to the heat attack, or make up something separate?


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## Shade (May 7, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Did I just misread “eats its way through the solid rock” as meaning it eats the rock instead of eats it away with acid?



I think you did.     (But I could be wrong). 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should we use these bits, and if so how?



Flavor text only? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Right, I get that we have the high natural armor, but keep in mind the “solid rock up to five feet thick” is pretty unusual. Of course, we could always say that the damage reduction accounts for that and be done with it…



Yeah, I think so.  Other thick, rocklike creatures don't have any other special benefits (Galeb Duhr, Maulgoth, etc.) 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> One thing to keep in mind that differentiates a horgar from other creatures that attack with acid, is that the horgar has no slam or other physical attacks because it lacks appendages. If it weren’t so danged slow I could even recommend some sort of charge. For the line of acid attack I’m suggesting something how the arrowhawk’s lightning ray is listed on the attack line (and we’d give a further explanation below).



Trample?  Squash like Juggernaut?  Head butt/knockback (like Indricothere)? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> could we add these parts to the heat attack, or make up something separate?



Add to heat attack.


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## BOZ (Jun 16, 2004)

On second thought, 


			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> DIET: Rocks or earth



and the fact that it is called a “stone-eater” lead me to believe that it probably does digest earthen material.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Trample? Squash like Juggernaut? Head butt/knockback (like Indricothere)?




hmm, even if we do give it something like that (and I’m not currently in favor of it, though with some thought I may change my mind), I still want to keep the “acid squirt” in the attack line.



> Add to heat attack.




how about as such: 

The tunnels created by a horgar’s slime and body heat remain dangerously hot for three hours.  Any creature or object touching the walls of such a tunnel (including the floor) takes 2d10 points of fire damage per round.  Metal in contact with such a surface is affected as if by a heat metal spell, though it remains searing hot until removed from the wall.  After the first three hours, the walls remain hot for a full 24 hours after the horgar has passed, though not hot enough to burn anything.


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## BOZ (Jun 16, 2004)

Also…

Did we discuss adding something regarding breaking weapons?



			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> Striking it with physical weapons is like hitting a granite boulder.  Edged weapons cause only half damage and must roll saving throws vs. crushing blow.




this passage should help illustrate why I don’t think a physical attack is necessary:


			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The horgar is not an aggressive creature. The main problem is that it does not recognize most living creatures, at all. If unprovoked, it goes its own way, whether or not somebody is in the way. If attacked, it tries to leave.




if we give it anything, it should not be terribly damaging.  The slime and heat should take care of most attackers, and if it comes up against something that is immune to acid and fire, then that is its problem.  


finally wrote up the flavor text:

_This appears to be a cooled-down, oblong lava formation at first.  It begins to move, giving it the appearance of a slug made from black granite.  Even at a distance, the heat generated by this creature is intense, and its acidic odor of ammonia is powerful._

The horgar is an immense, powerful creature that eats its way through solid rock to create subterranean tunnels, passageways, and caverns.  It lives deep within the earth, spending all of its time tunneling through and eating rock.  

Some races call this creature a stone-eater, though it is commonly known by its dwarven name of horgar, and its less commonly known gnomish name of storgin (both of which mean “stone-eater”). These mysterious creatures are sometimes worshipped as gods by primitive lesser races.  Some races try to tame horgar, to use the creatures to make passageways as they want and to attack enemies.  Such captive horgar are kept in glass-lined pits, and their keepers (called horgarin in the Dwarf tongue) slip long, thin spears through the cracks in their skin to prod the sensitive flesh below.  Thus, a horgarin may control which direction a horgar moves, though a careless handler is likely to lose his life to his charge.

A horgar’s chitinous skin is made from five-foot thick stone, with great cracks that divide it into large plates.  These plates shift and slide while the creature moves, creating small fissures from which the horgar secretes its super-heated slime. A horgar also constantly generates searing heat from its body, reaching between 400 and 500 degrees. As a horgar moves, it grinds against the tunnel walls it makes, as its slime and heat melt the rock and fuse it into new formations.  The only exposed part of a horgar is its round head, located at one end, which just seems to be a lump of softer-looking stone.

It is easy to detect a fresh stone-eater tunnel, as it remains hot for many hours.  Tunnels and other new formations cut through hard rocks such as granite remain permanent, while passages made in softer stone such as sandstone collapse as the horgar moves through them.

A horgar is at least 30 feet long and can grow up to 100 feet in length, and weighs X tons.

COMBAT
A horgar is not an aggressive creature, by any stretch of the imagination.  A horgar does not recognize most organic things as living creatures, and tends to continue moving whether or not something is in the way.  If provoked or attacked, a horgar will usually try to leave.  If it cannot run away, a horgar will turn to fight.  It can squirt acid from its head up to 20 feet away.  It will try to flee again at the first available opportunity.


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> On second thought,
> 
> and the fact that it is called a “stone-eater” lead me to believe that it probably does digest earthen material.



That makes sense.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, even if we do give it something like that (and I’m not currently in favor of it, though with some thought I may change my mind), I still want to keep the “acid squirt” in the attack line.



Acid squirt alone is fine. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about as such:
> 
> The tunnels created by a horgar’s slime and body heat remain dangerously hot for three hours. Any creature or object touching the walls of such a tunnel (including the floor) takes 2d10 points of fire damage per round. Metal in contact with such a surface is affected as if by a heat metal spell, though it remains searing hot until removed from the wall. After the first three hours, the walls remain hot for a full 24 hours after the horgar has passed, though not hot enough to burn anything.



Sounds good, except heat metal normally allows a save.  Is this going to allow a save, and if so, will it need a caster level for the effect?


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## BOZ (Jun 18, 2004)

"Metal in contact with such a surface is affected as if by a heat metal spell, though it remains searing hot until removed from the wall.  Such an item may make a Will save (DC X) to avoid this effect, but must make a new save every round it remains in contact with the surface.  The save DC is (Constitution?)-based."

should we write anything up for digesting earth and stone, or is a brief note in the flavor text sufficient?

and see the first question in my last post, regarding breaking weapons.


----------



## Shade (Jun 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "Metal in contact with such a surface is affected as if by a heat metal spell, though it remains searing hot until removed from the wall. Such an item may make a Will save (DC X) to avoid this effect, but must make a new save every round it remains in contact with the surface. The save DC is (Constitution?)-based."



Sounds good, and yes, I think it should be Constitution-based.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should we write anything up for digesting earth and stone, or is a brief note in the flavor text sufficient?



Unless it has an effect on creatures composed of earth (such as earth elementals), I think flavor text is sufficient.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "and see the first question in my last post, regarding breaking weapons.



I don't think we covered this yet.   There is a creature that has a similar ability, but I'm drawing a blank at the moment.  I'll get back to you on that.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 21, 2004)

OK, I’ll be waiting.  

In the meantime, posting the horgar in homebrews…

(for reference, we currently have 6 ready for the next batch.  epimetheus, shimnus, and the house hunter counts as 3.  plus, since i've abandoned the april fools thread, might as well toss in the tirapheg.   )


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, I’ll be waiting.



Here's one that is vaguely similar:

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): The armor plates that cover a rukanyr shift and rub against each other in combat, creating a jarring sound like that of trees rubbing together in a high wind. Anyone who strikes a rukanyr with a slashing or piercing melee attack must make a Reflex save (DC 11) or the armor plates shift and crush the weapon, dealing 4d6+5 points of damage to the weapon and tearing it from the victim's grasp. The weapon lands at the attacker's feet if it is not broken by the damage.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> (for reference, we currently have 6 ready for the next batch. epimetheus, shimnus, and the house hunter counts as 3. plus, since i've abandoned the april fools thread, might as well toss in the tirapheg.  )



I pity the (april) fools!


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## BOZ (Jun 21, 2004)

vaguely similar yes, but not quite what i was thinking.  what you've got here is something that "grabs" the weapon and grinds it up, while the horgar is more like attacking a boulder with a sword.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2004)

True, it was a stretch.   How about something like this (obviously, it needs work):

Reverse Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar is like hitting a granite boulder.  Any slashing or piercing weapon that strikes a horgar takes X points of damage.  The weapon's hardness still applies.

Are we giving this thing DR/bludgeoning?  If so, we could have it deal damage to the weapon equal to the amount of damage absorbed by the DR.


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## BOZ (Jun 22, 2004)

close...  i posted a thread in the rules forum to see what kind of input we can get: http://65.127.163.19/showthread.php?t=92142

and yes, DR 20/bludgeoning as i mentioned in that thread.


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## BOZ (Jul 23, 2004)

thinking... you know, the last thing shade posted might actually be right on.  only thing though, the original text allowed a saving throw for the weapon, so i think we should maintain that.  would that be a Reflex save rolled by the attacking character?


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## BOZ (Jul 23, 2004)

how about this?

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or the weapon takes 30 points of damage. The weapon's hardness still applies.  The save DC is (Constitution?  Strength?)-based.

not sure if the sentence about hardness is necessary?  If I’m reading the table right, I set the damage to destroy any normal weapon on a failed save.  Or maybe the damage should be a random number with the Strength bonus (which will almost always destroy a weapon anyway).  Should I add a note that this does not provoke an attack of opportunity?


----------



## Shade (Jul 26, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how about this?
> 
> Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or the weapon takes 30 points of damage. The weapon's hardness still applies. The save DC is (Constitution? Strength?)-based.
> 
> not sure if the sentence about hardness is necessary? If I’m reading the table right, I set the damage to destroy any normal weapon on a failed save. Or maybe the damage should be a random number with the Strength bonus (which will almost always destroy a weapon anyway). Should I add a note that this does not provoke an attack of opportunity?



What table are you referring to?  

30 points would indeed destroy any weapon other than a one-handed metal-hafted weapon made of adamantine (hardness 20, hp 20).

I'm not sure that this should be able to destroy an adamantine weapon outright.  So maybe the suggestion of variable damage or a lower number would be appropriate.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 27, 2004)

the table i'm referring to is on p. 158, which you seem to be familiar with already given your response.    it is apparently repeated on p. 166.

OK, i'll entertain variable damage. let's see, Str 35 gives +12 damage bonus.  so, let's say... 3d8+12?  this will destroy most weapons most of the time, though some will survive the first hit (prompting most attackers to rethink using that weapon).

any thoughts on the saving throw?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 27, 2004)

ALSO...

I’ll be adding this to the Combat section:
Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.

Also, wondering, should we set a time limit as to how long its pools of acid remain after it leaves?  Same as the “hot walls” maybe?

More things:

Need a range for Blindsight.  And if we’re giving it Tremorsense, need a range for that too.

It has 33 skill ranks.  Not sure which skills are appropriate, but maybe some of these will work:
Climb, Escape Artist, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Survival

Also, it has 11 feats.  It should have limited combat capability, and it doesn’t qualify for many other feats.  So, these are some which might not be inappropriate:
Alertness, Blind-Fight, Endurance/Diehard, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot (and feats from associated tree), Skill Focus, Toughness (more than one maybe), Track, and Weapon Focus (acid squirt)


----------



## Shade (Jul 27, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the table i'm referring to is on p. 158, which you seem to be familiar with already given your response.  it is apparently repeated on p. 166.



Gotcha.  I'm familiar with said table.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, i'll entertain variable damage. let's see, Str 35 gives +12 damage bonus. so, let's say... 3d8+12? this will destroy most weapons most of the time, though some will survive the first hit (prompting most attackers to rethink using that weapon).
> 
> any thoughts on the saving throw?



Hmmm...I'm almost tempted to think that adamantine should be immune to the sundering.  Since it can bypass up to hardness 20, and hewn stone only has hardness 8, wouldn't it stand to reason that adamantine cuts right through to the "chewy center"?

Looking at it again, the save doesn't make much sense.   If you make a Reflex save to avoid hitting the creature, and thus damaging the weapon, you wouldn't hit the creature at all.   How would a character realize this until the weapon had already taken damage?   

Maybe I'm reading too much into this...



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ALSO...
> 
> I’ll be adding this to the Combat section:
> Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.



Sweet.  How about adding splash damage to those near targets?   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, wondering, should we set a time limit as to how long its pools of acid remain after it leaves? Same as the “hot walls” maybe?



That is a good idea.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> More things:
> 
> Need a range for Blindsight. And if we’re giving it Tremorsense, need a range for that too.



How about blindsight 60 ft., tremorsense 120 ft.?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> It has 33 skill ranks. Not sure which skills are appropriate, but maybe some of these will work:
> Climb, Escape Artist, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Survival



I can definitely see Listen, Search, and Survival.  Why would it care about moving silently?  It's a tank!       Escape Artist wouldn't be terrible useful, since it probably has great strength and size modifiers, right?   Perhaps add Knowledge (dungeoneering)?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, it has 11 feats. It should have limited combat capability, and it doesn’t qualify for many other feats. So, these are some which might not be inappropriate:
> Alertness, Blind-Fight, Endurance/Diehard, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot (and feats from associated tree), Skill Focus, Toughness (more than one maybe), Track, and Weapon Focus (acid squirt)



Would Point Blank Shot and similar ranged weapon feats apply to a line?  Since it qualifies for epic feats, I'd give it Epic Toughness (+30 hp) rather than Toughness.  All the other suggestions seem appropriate.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 28, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...I'm almost tempted to think that adamantine should be immune to the sundering. Since it can bypass up to hardness 20, and hewn stone only has hardness 8, wouldn't it stand to reason that adamantine cuts right through to the "chewy center"?




do keep in mind that we are talking about a creature that has 5-foot thick stone skin though.    I *guess* I could put in a line about this ability not affecting adamantine though, if it will help you sleep better at night.    if I lower the damage enough that adamantine would not be damaged, then this ability will be pretty weak.

Meanwhile, how does the 3d8+12 damage sound anyway?  



> Looking at it again, the save doesn't make much sense. If you make a Reflex save to avoid hitting the creature, and thus damaging the weapon, you wouldn't hit the creature at all. How would a character realize this until the weapon had already taken damage?
> 
> Maybe I'm reading too much into this...




maybe.  

the saving throw is, of course, up for revision or I wouldn’t be asking about it.  I could argue in favor of the Reflex save, saying that while you do hit the creature, you manage to hold the blade a certain way or strike at a certain angle to keep it from being damaged.  If that is not good enough, perhaps we can substitute a Fortitude save.  I’m not that worried about it, as long as the player gets a chance to save his weapon.  Keep in mind, you already have fire and acid damage to your weapon likely when striking a horgar… (and both of those allow saves for the weapon – I see a Fort save on the heat, and a Ref save on the slime.  Does a Constitution-based DC make more sense than a Strength-based DC?



> Sweet. How about adding splash damage to those near targets?




I might have to rethink the whole “line of acid” idea.  here is the probable clincher: does a black dragon’s breath weapon cause splash damage?  maybe i will make the Attack lines "---" and make this an SA only just for the sake of ease.



> That is a good idea.




“The pools of acid evaporate in X rounds/hours.”- like so?



> I can definitely see Listen, Search, and Survival. Why would it care about moving silently? It's a tank!  Escape Artist wouldn't be terrible useful, since it probably has great strength and size modifiers, right? Perhaps add Knowledge (dungeoneering)?




Climb no good?  I suggested Escape Artist (uncertainly) because it wriggles around like a worm, so who knows.  Move Silently was a, what the hell who knows.    Dungeoneering?  Naw, it knows the Underdark like the back of its… slug.  

How about:  Listen +12, Search +10, Survival +13 ?



> Would Point Blank Shot and similar ranged weapon feats apply to a line? Since it qualifies for epic feats, I'd give it Epic Toughness (+30 hp) rather than Toughness. All the other suggestions seem appropriate.




I thought Epic Toughness was +20?  Good idea, regardless.  How about, then:
Feats: Blind-Fight, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Survival), Track
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)


----------



## BOZ (Jul 28, 2004)

Also, thought of this as I was re-reading back over the thread…



			
				MC5 said:
			
		

> The horgar smells like the super-heated acid that it secretes from between its rock plates, somewhat like ammonia. The gases make other creatures' eyes water and irritate their mouths and nasal passages.




I think we were considering using this at some point, but discussion trailed off on it.  Shade had quoted a section from the environment section of the DMG regarding how the stench of acid can affect characters.  Maybe instead of dealing any damage though, it just nauseates creatures or something.

And updating in homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Jul 28, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> do keep in mind that we are talking about a creature that has 5-foot thick stone skin though.  I *guess* I could put in a line about this ability not affecting adamantine though, if it will help you sleep better at night.  if I lower the damage enough that adamantine would not be damaged, then this ability will be pretty weak.



I'd just make adamantine an exception, not lower the damage, since adamantine is an exception to the hardness rules to being with.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Meanwhile, how does the 3d8+12 damage sound anyway?



Sounds good! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the saving throw is, of course, up for revision or I wouldn’t be asking about it. I could argue in favor of the Reflex save, saying that while you do hit the creature, you manage to hold the blade a certain way or strike at a certain angle to keep it from being damaged. If that is not good enough, perhaps we can substitute a Fortitude save. I’m not that worried about it, as long as the player gets a chance to save his weapon. Keep in mind, you already have fire and acid damage to your weapon likely when striking a horgar… (and both of those allow saves for the weapon – I see a Fort save on the heat, and a Ref save on the slime. Does a Constitution-based DC make more sense than a Strength-based DC?



Constitution-based makes more sense, since the horgar isn't _actively_ attempting to cause the effect.  Right?   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I might have to rethink the whole “line of acid” idea. here is the probable clincher: does a black dragon’s breath weapon cause splash damage? maybe i will make the Attack lines "---" and make this an SA only just for the sake of ease.



No, the dragon's does not.  I guess it should either be a line of acid similar to a weapon, or a glob/spray/etc. of acid as a ranged touch attack.  The former would be subject to a Reflex save, while the latter would be a ranged touch attack and allow all the feats and splash damage. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “The pools of acid evaporate in X rounds/hours.”- like so?



Cool.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Climb no good? I suggested Escape Artist (uncertainly) because it wriggles around like a worm, so who knows. Move Silently was a, what the hell who knows.  Dungeoneering? Naw, it knows the Underdark like the back of its… slug.
> 
> How about_: Listen +12, Search +10, Survival +13 ?



Actually, Climb is fine...not sure why I skipped it.   I like the others you mentioned. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I thought Epic Toughness was +20? Good idea, regardless. How about, then:
> Feats: Blind-Fight, Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Skill Focus (Survival), Track
> Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)



Epic Toughness was raised to +30 in _Complete Warrior_, which states that it supercedes previous sources.  Additionally, Andy Smith said that he intends to update the SRD to reflect this as well.

Your new feat block looks good.


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## BOZ (Jul 29, 2004)

Slight revision brings us to this:

Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC 32 Reflex save or the weapon takes 3d8+12 points of damage. Weapons made of adamantine are not subject to this attack. The save DC is Constitution-based.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> No, the dragon's does not. I guess it should either be a line of acid similar to a weapon, or a glob/spray/etc. of acid as a ranged touch attack. The former would be subject to a Reflex save, while the latter would be a ranged touch attack and allow all the feats and splash damage.




the ranged touch attack is what I’ve been pushing for all along.    so, tell me how to modify this line to make it so, and include the effects for splash damage:

Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.

Revising my Skills and Feats a bit:

Skills: Climb +16, Listen +11, Search +10, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)
Feats: Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Track, Weapon Focus (acid spray)
Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)

And any thoughts on the acid-stench effects as above?


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Slight revision brings us to this:
> 
> Reflexive Sunder (Ex): Striking a horgar's body is like hitting a granite boulder, and may destroy manufactured weapons. Any character that strikes a horgar with a slashing or piercing melee weapon must succeed on a DC 32 Reflex save or the weapon takes 3d8+12 points of damage. Weapons made of adamantine are not subject to this attack. The save DC is Constitution-based.



Nice work! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the ranged touch attack is what I’ve been pushing for all along.



See, give it time and people will come around to your way of thinking.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so, tell me how to modify this line to make it so, and include the effects for splash damage:
> 
> Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can fire a 20-foot line of acid once per round, that deals 20d4 points of acid damage.



Attack: melee attacks or acid squirt +X ranged touch (20d4 acid plus 5d4 acid splash)

Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can spit a stream of acid at an opponent or area.  Treat this as a splash weapon.  Thus, the horgar makes a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet and a maximum range of 20 feet. A direct hit deals 20d4 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 5d4 points of acid damage from the splash.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Revising my Skills and Feats a bit:
> 
> Skills: Climb +16, Listen +11, Search +10, Survival +11 (+13 following tracks)
> Feats: Diehard, Endurance, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot, Track, Weapon Focus (acid spray)
> Epic Feats: Epic Toughness (x4)



Excellent.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And any thoughts on the acid-stench effects as above?



Which post was that in again?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 30, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Acid Squirt (Ex): A horgar can spit a stream of acid at an opponent or area. Treat this as a splash weapon. Thus, the horgar makes a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet and a maximum range of 20 feet. A direct hit deals 20d4 points of acid damage. Every creature within 5 feet of the point where the acid hits takes 5d4 points of acid damage from the splash.




perfect!  I’m using that as-is. 



> Which post was that in again?




post #377  , which you responded to in a post a few pages back (#357).  

and we’re just about done… need CR, maybe 20-ish?


----------



## Shade (Jul 30, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> perfect! I’m using that as-is.



Sweet! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> post #377 , which you responded to in a post a few pages back (#357).
> 
> and we’re just about done… need CR, maybe 20-ish?



Ahh, post numbers to the rescue.   I'm fine with either the nausea or the usual environmental effect.

CR 20 seems reasonable.   It is damn tough, but its deadliest abilities are easy to counter with protection from (or immunity to) acid effects.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 31, 2004)

To make things easier, here is the text in question:



			
				 MC5 said:
			
		

> The horgar smells like the super-heated acid that it secretes from between its rock plates, somewhat like ammonia. The gases make other creatures' eyes water and irritate their mouths and nasal passages.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps the acid information from the environment section of the DMG could be applied:
> 
> "Corrosive acids deals 1d6 points of damage per round of exposure except in the case of total immersion (such as into a vat of acid), which deals 10d6 points of damage per round. An attack with acid, such as from a hurled vial or a monster’s spittle, counts as a round of exposure."
> 
> ...




so, perhaps for creatures in adjacent squares to a horgar or one of its acid pools, we can give a negative effect.  We could add a paragraph like this to the Corrosive Slime description, or perhaps give it its own description:

The fumes from a horgar’s acid are inhaled poisons.  Any creature that is adjacent to a horgar or one of the pools of acid it leaves behind must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage.  All such creatures must make a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage.


----------



## Shade (Aug 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> so, perhaps for creatures in adjacent squares to a horgar or one of its acid pools, we can give a negative effect. We could add a paragraph like this to the Corrosive Slime description, or perhaps give it its own description:
> 
> The fumes from a horgar’s acid are inhaled poisons. Any creature that is adjacent to a horgar or one of the pools of acid it leaves behind must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1 point of Constitution damage. All such creatures must make a second save 1 minute later or take another 1d4 points of Constitution damage.



I think that should work.  I'd recommend its own entry rather than tacked onto corrosive slime.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 2, 2004)

Yep, that’s pretty crowded anyway.    ok, updating in homebrews; don’t see much more left beyond plugging in some values here and there.


----------



## Shade (Aug 3, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Yep, that’s pretty crowded anyway.  ok, updating in homebrews; don’t see much more left beyond plugging in some values here and there.



For weight, it is twice as long as a delver, which is kinda similar in body shape.  If we double the weight of a delver, we get 6 tons.

Heat DC (second paragraph) = 32.

Noxious Stench should be Con-based, DC 32.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A horgar’s mere touch deals 20d4 points of acid damage to organic creatures or objects. Against metallic creatures or objects, a horgar’s slime deals X points of damage, and against stony creatures (including earth elementals) or objects it deals X points of damage. The passage of a horgar through earth leaves pools of pure acid that form at the bottom of the tunnel. Any creatures touching these pools with bare flesh take 10d4 points of acid damage. The pools of acid evaporate in X rounds/hours.



The delver's formula is 2d6, 4d8, 8d10.   This doesn't really follow any of the current size increase for damage tables I could find, but I think the following would work:

20d4, 20d8 vs. metallic, 40d10 vs. stone.   

I have no idea for the acid duration.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 3, 2004)

For duration of the acid pools, how about 1d3 days?


----------



## Shade (Aug 3, 2004)

That should work.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 4, 2004)

OK, updating… how’s this big fella look?


----------



## Shade (Aug 4, 2004)

He looks like a slug made from black granite.   

But seriously, I think he's finished.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 10, 2004)

time for a new one!    i dug up this obscure little fellow a while back...

PRESENCE (and WHISPS)

FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOUR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 1”
HIT DICE: 11-15
% IN LAIR: 100
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NUMBER OF ATTACKS: Nil
DAMAGE/ATTACK: Nil
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Creation of whisps
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Need magical or silver weapons to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Immune to sleep, charm, etc.
INTELLIGENCE: Genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: S (2-3’ diameter)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil
LEVEL/xp VALUE: Variable

Presences are highly intelligent, non-corporeal creatures who generally inhabit long-abandoned and little-frequented places.  They are extremely evil, and spend most of their time in deep, introverted speculations on evil philosophy.  In appearance they resemble a small zone of unnatural darkness, not unlike that produced by a darkness spell.

These creatures seldom move, and do not themselves attack in any direct way. However, they loathe all non-evil creatures, and hate to have their philosophical deliberations disturbed.  In order to defend themselves, presences create whisps.  Although whisps are only extensions of the presence, they may be thought of as distinct entities with the following characteristics for the purposes of combat:

ARMOUR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 18”
HIT DICE: 4 hp
NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Ignore effects of armour (see below)
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Need magical or silver weapons to hit
SIZE: S (c. 1’ long)

In appearance, whisps are snake-like, writhing, green smoky clouds. Unlike smoke, however, they are unaffected by wind, etc, and are fast-moving and mobile. They are able to pass	through the narrowest of cracks, and are even unhindered by up to six inches of wood or one inch of stone. A presence may send its whisps up to 50 feet away from itself, and its control over them may not be blocked.

When attacking, whisps strike like snakes and, being non-corporeal, are unaffected by armour or shields.  All opponents are treated as having armour class 10 (modified for dexterity if appropriate).  This ability extends even to creatures not normally affected by non-magical weapons and to creatures wearing magical armour or other magical protection devices.  Whisps are not regarded as “summoned” creatures for the purposes of protection from evil spells etc.  Whisps attack on the “Under 1 HD” column, but, as extensions of the presence, are treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks.

Each whisp created by a presence causes the presence to lose four hit points. These are restored if the presence re-absorbs the whisp, but if the whisp is destroyed they are lost, The presence has total control over the actions of its whisps. It can create and control up to one whisp per hit die at any single time, but a presence will never convert all its hit points into whisps. Whisps can attack the round they are created.

The presence can see and hear exactly what the whisps see and hear, but has no sight or hearing except through one or more of its whisps.  In the absence of whisps, a presence’s only sense is the ability to detect living creatures and their alignments within a radius of 60 feet. In general, a presence will create whisps in order to attack any creatures of non-evil alignment which it detects, retaining enough hit points to produce a number of whisps (usually a little under half its total capacity) to defend itself in case of absolute need.


some preliminary stats for the presence:

*Presence*
Small Aberration (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 11d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: Fly 5 ft (1 square)
Armor Class: 14 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: whisps
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/magic or silver, detect living, immune to sleep & charm, incorporeal traits
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---

From module UK2 – The Sentinel


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2004)

Wow, more gaseous creatures.  We need Beano around here.   

Base Att/Grapple should be +8/-.

Base saves should be +3/+3/+7.

Str should be "-".   Replace +X natural with +X deflection.

Genius Int equates to 17-18, right?


----------



## BOZ (Aug 10, 2004)

One odd function I noticed about this creature is the “whisps” – while the writer clearly states that they are really just an extension of a Presence, he also at the same time tries to treat them as if they are other creatures, even giving them a partial stat block.  I think a description of them under the combat section should be more than enough.  The presence itself would have no attacks, but the whisps would get incorporeal touches.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2004)

I agree.  They are not separate creatures.  Their hp could serve for severing purposes similar to many creature's tentacles, eh?


----------



## EyeforanEye2 (Sep 15, 2004)

Is this thread dead???  I was hoping the Presence would be completed....

Where is everyone???


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2004)

The gang (or most of 'em) are still here, but the ringleader (BOZ) is tied up with some other projects, so these threads are on hold for now.   But don't worry, they'll be active again in the near future.


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## BOZ (Sep 15, 2004)

yep, what he said.    i've got a project that is due in a little over 2 weeks; after that i am a free man again and will return to these threads.  

on a side note, it is refreshing to see someone with an interest in this obscure critter!


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## EyeforanEye2 (Sep 26, 2004)

Yes, I am interested in what the final say is on this creature...  I have converted many of the old 1st Edition modules over and this is one of the very few monsters i really have to be careful on...  I am looking forward to helping in any way possible...


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## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

Hello!  This one was re-requested in the not-too-distant past, so there is at least one person who would like to see it completed.    so, time to get a move on.  One nice thing about this critter is that, since we weren’t too far into it, we are still on the same page and it won’t take long to look back and see what has been done so far…



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I agree. They are not separate creatures. Their hp could serve for severing purposes similar to many creature's tentacles, eh?




quite right, yes, I hadn’t thought of that.  Needs to be a little different though, since they are a bit different than normal.  But keep in mind, they move on their own, away from the presence, so I don’t know if a sunder attack is appropriate or not (imagine them as little flying snakes make of smoke).

“An opponent can attack a presence’s whisps with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A presence’s whisps have 4 hit points each. Destroying one of a presence’s whisps deals 4 points of damage to the creature.”


----------



## Shade (Nov 24, 2004)

Given time to distance myself from this thread, I now think that maybe we should stat the whisps as separate creatures, and simply have the damage be dealt to the presence as stated.

We have a few creatures we can look to for inspiration:  the protean scourge (MM3), the puzzle golem (Dragon), and the split ability of some oozes.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

I don’t have access to those two monsters, so I don’t know what they look like.  for oozes, I don’t think that’s quite the same situation as what we have here.

What you have to keep in mind, is that the whisps are not separate creatures; they are extensions of the presence.  They have no mind or will of their own.  If we gave them a separate stat block, they’d have to be mindless – Int 0, no skills or feats, and immune to mind-affecting effects (and probably anything that requires a will save), no alignment etc.  But yes, I imagine we could do that if that’s the best option.


----------



## Shade (Nov 24, 2004)

I'm honestly not sure on this one...I could see it go either way.   Maybe we should just pick one method and see how it goes, knowing that we can always fall back on the other one?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 24, 2004)

OK, i'll try the separate stat block thing, and we'll see where it goes from there.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 25, 2004)

here we go, for starters: 

*Whisp*
Tiny Aberration (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 1d8 (4 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: Fly 50 ft (10 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 size, +X Dex, +X deflection), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/---
Attack: Incorporeal touch +X melee (1d6)
Full Attack:  Incorporeal touch +X melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 2 ½ ft/0 ft
Special Attacks: ---
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/magic or silver, incorporeal traits, mindless
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str ---, Dex X, Con 10, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: ---
Feats: ---


----------



## Shade (Nov 25, 2004)

Add "(perfect)" to fly speed.



> The presence can see and hear exactly what the whisps see and hear, but has no sight or hearing except through one or more of its whisps.



So it looks like the whisps should get the darkvision 60 ft. common to aberrations, while the presence should be blind and deaf.

The more I look at this, it seems very similar to the master/familiar relationship.  Perhaps, then, we can borrow/modify the following:

Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master’s character level or the familiar’s normal HD total, whichever is higher.

Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.  Damage equals that of a normal creature of the familiar’s kind.

Saving Throws: For each saving throw, use either the familiar’s base save bonus (Fortitude +2, Reflex +2, Will +0) or the master’s (as calculated from all his classes), whichever is better. The familiar uses its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any of the other bonuses that the master might have on saves.

Skills: For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.

Some of the other familiar abilities might also be appropriate.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 26, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Add "(perfect)" to fly speed.




good call - i gave that to the presence also, with as fast as it can go at 5 ft per round.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> So it looks like the whisps should get the darkvision 60 ft. common to aberrations, while the presence should be blind and deaf.




interesting, and probably true.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The more I look at this, it seems very similar to the master/familiar relationship.




Think of it this way.  Imagine you could detach your fingers, turn them into lightning bolts, have them attack your enemies, and then rejoin your body.  Whisps are more or less like that, from how I see it.  I?m not so sure that familiars work the same way ? there you have independent creatures who function as you choose, but are only technically a part of you, but with whisps they exist only at the will of the presence, and are completely a part of and dependent on the originating creature.

That said, either way, we could probably adapt some parts of the familiars rules.  I?ll need to give some thought to that later.  I?ll be back home tonight.


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## BOZ (Nov 26, 2004)

haven't left yet.  

this sentence here, i think, is the key:

"Although whisps are only extensions of the presence, they may be thought of as distinct entities with the following characteristics for the purposes of combat"


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2004)

Time to break some of this down:

"In appearance they resemble a small zone of unnatural darkness, not unlike that produced by a darkness spell."

Should there be any combat application for this?

"In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is the ability to detect living creatures and their alignments within a radius of 60 feet."

This should get a writeup as well.


For whisps:

"In appearance, whisps are snake-like, writhing, green smoky clouds. Unlike smoke, however, they are unaffected by wind, etc, and are fast-moving and mobile."

Is this assumed because they are incorporeal?

"They are able to pass through the narrowest of cracks, and are even unhindered by up to six inches of wood or one inch of stone."

They are otherwise like gaseous forms.  But then again, aren't they supposed to be incorporeal?

"A presence may send its whisps up to 50 feet away from itself, and its control over them may not be blocked."

Limitations and unlimitations?

"Whisps are not regarded as "summoned" creatures for the purposes of protection from evil spells etc."

OK.  

"Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column, but, as extensions of the presence, are treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks."

Not quite sure what they are getting at?

"Each whisp created by a presence causes the presence to lose four hit points. These are restored if the presence re-absorbs the whisp, but if the whisp is destroyed they are lost, The presence has total control over the actions of its whisps. It can create and control up to one whisp per hit die at any single time, but a presence will never convert all its hit points into whisps. Whisps can attack the round they are created."

All of that is useful.

"The presence can see and hear exactly what the whisps see and hear, but has no sight or hearing except through one or more of its whisps."

As is that.

"In general, a presence will create whisps in order to attack any creatures of non-evil alignment which it detects, retaining enough hit points to produce a number of whisps (usually a little under half its total capacity) to defend itself in case of absolute need."

Flavor text.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Time to break some of this down:
> 
> "In appearance they resemble a small zone of unnatural darkness, not unlike that produced by a darkness spell."
> 
> Should there be any combat application for this?



We could give 'em concealment (20% miss chance) like the darkness spell grants now.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is the ability to detect living creatures and their alignments within a radius of 60 feet."
> 
> This should get a writeup as well.



Didn't we do a lifesense ability on another critter?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For whisps:
> 
> "In appearance, whisps are snake-like, writhing, green smoky clouds. Unlike smoke, however, they are unaffected by wind, etc, and are fast-moving and mobile."
> 
> ...



I think incorporeality didn't really have a mechanic prior to 3E, so they had to spell out whatever an individual creature could do.   I'd vote that we just make 'em incorporeal, and forget about all the squeezing and unaffected by wind hooey.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "A presence may send its whisps up to 50 feet away from itself, and its control over them may not be blocked."
> 
> Limitations and unlimitations?



Limitations.  I'm not seeing any "unlimitations".  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column, but, as extensions of the presence, are treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks."
> 
> Not quite sure what they are getting at?



IIRC, monsters used the old THACO tables based on HD.  This is one of the areas I thought that familiar abilities would work great...

Attacks: Use the master’s base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar’s Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar’s melee attack bonus with natural weapons.

or, in our case...

Attacks: Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "Each whisp created by a presence causes the presence to lose four hit points. These are restored if the presence re-absorbs the whisp, but if the whisp is destroyed they are lost, The presence has total control over the actions of its whisps. It can create and control up to one whisp per hit die at any single time, but a presence will never convert all its hit points into whisps. Whisps can attack the round they are created."
> 
> All of that is useful.



Indeed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "The presence can see and hear exactly what the whisps see and hear, but has no sight or hearing except through one or more of its whisps."
> 
> As is that.



How about something like...

Unnatural Senses (Su):  A presence is blind and deaf.  However, it can see and hear exactly what its whisps see and hear.   In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is its lifesense ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "In general, a presence will create whisps in order to attack any creatures of non-evil alignment which it detects, retaining enough hit points to produce a number of whisps (usually a little under half its total capacity) to defend itself in case of absolute need."
> 
> Flavor text.



Yep.


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## BOZ (Nov 27, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> We could give 'em concealment (20% miss chance) like the darkness spell grants now.




not bad, coupled with incorporeality.  

Darkform (Ex): A presence's physical form seems to consist of a shadowy illumination that grants it concealment (20% miss chance).  This effect is otherwise like the darkness spell.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Didn't we do a lifesense ability on another critter?




Don't remember.  If so, we need to make sure it grants both the ability to detect living creatures, as well as their alignments.  I'm assuming this would exclude undead and constructs?


Whisps:



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I think incorporeality didn't really have a mechanic prior to 3E, so they had to spell out whatever an individual creature could do. I'd vote that we just make 'em incorporeal, and forget about all the squeezing and unaffected by wind hooey.




that's kind of what I was thinking.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Limitations. I'm not seeing any "unlimitations".




well, the fact that a presence's control over a whisp cannot be blocked sounds like the opposite of a limitation to me.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> IIRC, monsters used the old THACO tables based on HD. This is one of the areas I thought that familiar abilities would work great...
> 
> Attacks: Use the master's base attack bonus, as calculated from all his classes. Use the familiar's Dexterity or Strength modifier, whichever is greater, to get the familiar's melee attack bonus with natural weapons.
> 
> ...




well, as incorporeals, they have no Str score, so we can assume the Dex will cover that.    what I meant by my question was that, it is obvious that the whisp was intended to have a low attack roll (Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column) but the "treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks" was confusing me.  Was it something like, in 1E, that fighters did something like the modern Cleave feat to creatures that had low-HD? In other words, if whisps technically had 11+ HD, fighters in 1E could not attack one after the other?

But yes, although the original version gave whisps a low attack value on purpose, if you like I guess we can give them a better one now.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How about something like...
> 
> Unnatural Senses (Su): A presence is blind and deaf. However, it can see and hear exactly what its whisps see and hear. In the absence of whisps, a presence's only sense is its lifesense ability.




that could work, but I may want to revise...


OK, here is a first attempt at a writeup for the whisps...

Whisps (Su): A presence can create whisps at will, using its own life force, which enable it to attack enemies. To create a whisp, a presence sacrifices four of its hit points.  A presence can create as many whisps as it has Hit Dice as a standard action, and it cannot have more whisps than it has Hit Dice.  A presence cannot convert all of its hit points into whisps.  If the presence re-absorbs a whisp (as a free action), it regains all the hit points that the whisp had remaining.

A presence has total control over all its whisps, and its control over them cannot be blocked by any means.  A whisp is fast-moving and mobile, and each one moves independently, and can move up to 50 feet away from the presence. A whisp can move and attack in the same round in which it is created.

A whisp has no independent will of its own, though each one is treated as a separate creature for combat purposes.  (Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity modifier to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons.)


note that the whisp isn't going to have any skills.  As for saving throws, I don't want to give it any higher saves than what it would get for HD.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> not bad, coupled with incorporeality.
> 
> Darkform (Ex): A presence's physical form seems to consist of a shadowy illumination that grants it concealment (20% miss chance). This effect is otherwise like the darkness spell.



Not bad at all.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Don't remember. If so, we need to make sure it grants both the ability to detect living creatures, as well as their alignments. I'm assuming this would exclude undead and constructs?



Agreed and yes.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, the fact that a presence's control over a whisp cannot be blocked sounds like the opposite of a limitation to me.



Right.  Gotcha.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> well, as incorporeals, they have no Str score, so we can assume the Dex will cover that.  what I meant by my question was that, it is obvious that the whisp was intended to have a low attack roll (Whisps attack on the "Under 1 HD" column) but the "treated as having more than one hit die for purposes of multiple fighter attacks" was confusing me. Was it something like, in 1E, that fighters did something like the modern Cleave feat to creatures that had low-HD? In other words, if whisps technically had 11+ HD, fighters in 1E could not attack one after the other?
> 
> But yes, although the original version gave whisps a low attack value on purpose, if you like I guess we can give them a better one now.



Oh yeah, duh on the no Str score.  

I believe fighters got their second attack right off the bat in 1E/2E.  Didn't it go 1 every 1, 3 every 2, then 2 every 2, and finally 3 every 3?   Regardless, I think they should use the presence's BAB to be a challenge.   I'm not sure about that last bit.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, here is a first attempt at a writeup for the whisps...
> 
> Whisps (Su): A presence can create whisps at will, using its own life force, which enable it to attack enemies. To create a whisp, a presence sacrifices four of its hit points. A presence can create as many whisps as it has Hit Dice as a standard action, and it cannot have more whisps than it has Hit Dice. A presence cannot convert all of its hit points into whisps. If the presence re-absorbs a whisp (as a free action), it regains all the hit points that the whisp had remaining.
> 
> ...



You don't want to go with the "share saves" like the master/familiar?   If not, these guys are toast to even the lowest-level area effect spells cast by a caster level of the presence's CR.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 28, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed and yes.




got anything for a sense life/alignment then?    and, thinking, would the alignment sense work on undead and constructs?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I believe fighters got their second attack right off the bat in 1E/2E. Didn't it go 1 every 1, 3 every 2, then 2 every 2, and finally 3 every 3? Regardless, I think they should use the presence's BAB to be a challenge. I'm not sure about that last bit.




no no, what I meant was something like Cleave but not as good - I vaguely remember it.  Something like if you were a fighter attacking small low-level enemies, you could make extra attacks - I think that's what they were getting at.  Say, if you killed a kobold, you got a free attack on his buddy standing next to him.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> You don't want to go with the "share saves" like the master/familiar? If not, these guys are toast to even the lowest-level area effect spells cast by a caster level of the presence's CR.




life is rough sometimes.    I'm going to assume that a creature as intelligent as a presence would have them not grouped together, unless piling on an enemy.  And as tiny creatures, don't they need to be in an opponent's space to hit anyway?

You like the writeup otherwise?


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> got anything for a sense life/alignment then?  and, thinking, would the alignment sense work on undead and constructs?



I know we've done this before, but I can't seem to find it.  

Anyhoo, here's a stab at it:

"Lifesense" (Su):  A presence continually detects the presence of living creatures and their alignments within 60 feet.  This functions similar to a detect undead spell, except that it detects only living creatures, as well as detect chaos/evil/good/law.  This ability is always active.

I don't think it should work on constructs and undead, since the original text said "living creatures _and_ their alignments".




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> no no, what I meant was something like Cleave but not as good - I vaguely remember it. Something like if you were a fighter attacking small low-level enemies, you could make extra attacks - I think that's what they were getting at. Say, if you killed a kobold, you got a free attack on his buddy standing next to him.



Oh, I remember what you were talking about now.   I think it was called "sweep".  I remember it from the old Gold Box computer games.  Regardless, I don't think it applies anymore, since fighters now have to choose Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack to achieve the same results.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> life is rough sometimes.  I'm going to assume that a creature as intelligent as a presence would have them not grouped together, unless piling on an enemy. And as tiny creatures, don't they need to be in an opponent's space to hit anyway?
> 
> You like the writeup otherwise?



Ouch, OK.  Yes, they do have to be in an enemy's space, but as incorporeal creatures, probably won't draw an attack of opportunity most of the time.   I guess they'll still avoid 50% of corporeal spells, anyway.

I do like the writeup, otherwise.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I know we've done this before, but I can't seem to find it.
> 
> Anyhoo, here's a stab at it:
> 
> ...




I like where you're coming from, and I agree about the non-living creatures, but that is a bit disorganized.  I think we can skip detecting chaos and law, since the presence doesn't seem interested in those.  Let me retry it:

Lifesense (Su): A presence continually detects the presence of living creatures and their alignments within 60 feet. This functions similar to a detect undead spell, except that it detects living creatures instead of undead, and the presence is never stunned if a living creature has more than twice its Hit Dice.  Additionally, this ability allows the presence to use detect evil and detect good automatically on any living creatures it detects.  This ability is always active.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Oh, I remember what you were talking about now. I think it was called "sweep". I remember it from the old Gold Box computer games.




EXACTLY.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Regardless, I don't think it applies anymore, since fighters now have to choose Cleave, Great Cleave, or Whirlwind Attack to achieve the same results.




right.  I wasn't suggesting we use it, I was just wondering if that was what they meant originally.  Only a curiosity on my part.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Ouch, OK. Yes, they do have to be in an enemy's space, but as incorporeal creatures, probably won't draw an attack of opportunity most of the time. I guess they'll still avoid 50% of corporeal spells, anyway.
> 
> I do like the writeup, otherwise.




good deal.  

posting in homebrews...


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2004)

Nice lifesense revision.  







> "In general, a presence will create whisps in order to attack any creatures of non-evil alignment which it detects, retaining enough hit points to produce a number of whisps (usually a little under half its total capacity) to defend itself in case of absolute need."



Based on this quote, I'd argue that detect good isn't necessary, either.  It just needs detect evil...if it ain't evil, it's fightin' time.  

For stats, definitely high Wis and Cha.   Any reason you suggested a low Dex?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Based on this quote, I'd argue that detect good isn't necessary, either. It just needs detect evil...if it ain't evil, it's fightin' time.




clobberin time?    and you’re right – it doesn’t hate good creatures, it hates non-evil creatures.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For stats, definitely high Wis and Cha. Any reason you suggested a low Dex?




low Dex, because to me the presence doesn’t seem like a particularly mobile creature.  “These creatures seldom move” coupled with the very slow speed seem to support this viewpoint.

Wis 17-19?  Cha 16-17?

Now here’s a question I’ve been wondering about… is damage reduction X/magic or silver still relevant to incorporeal creatures?


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2004)

Gotcha. Dex 10, then?

Wis 19, Cha 17.

Well, DR/silver would still matter. Imagine a +1 silver longsword. Since magic weapons can hit incorporeal creatures, the /silver part would still reduce the damage, right?

The magic part is probably redundant, however. So if it is "magic *or* silver", it might as well not be there. If it is "magic *and *silver", I think we can just make it "silver".

I just checked the MM3...two of the incorporeal creatures have damage reduction, albeit alignment-based, for what it's worth.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Well, DR/silver would still matter. Imagine a +1 silver longsword. Since magic weapons can hit incorporeal creatures, the /silver part would still reduce the damage, right?
> 
> The magic part is probably redundant, however. So if it is "magic or silver", it might as well not be there. If it is "magic and silver", I think we can just make it "silver".
> 
> I just checked the MM3...two of the incorporeal creatures have damage reduction, albeit alignment-based, for what it's worth.




Given all that, I'd say "good or silver" is a better way to go.    10 for the presence and 5 for the whisps, or 5 for both?

What do you think the Con score should be - high or low?

Updating in homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2004)

Good or silver...perfect!   10 for presence, 5 for whisps sounds good.

For Con, I'm thinking 12-14.

In Combat section, there's a typo:  "snake-like, *writing*, green smoky clouds".  It looks like it needs an "h", unless the whips like to demonstrate their penmanship.  

For skills, are we assuming that the presence can use its Search, Spot, and Listen skills via the whisps?   If so, I'd suggest the following ranks:

Escape Artist 14, Hide 14, Knowledge (arcana) 14, Listen 14, Search 14, Spot 14.  (Its kind of limited in what skills it can use, since it usually just sits there pondering evil stuff.)

Suggested Feats:  Alertness, Great Fortitutde, Iron Will, Stealthy.

Any land and underground sounds about right for Environment line.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 1, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> In Combat section, there's a typo: "snake-like, writing, green smoky clouds". It looks like it needs an "h", unless the whips like to demonstrate their penmanship.




typo!  how dare you underestimate this thing's need for good writing skills!  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For skills, are we assuming that the presence can use its Search, Spot, and Listen skills via the whisps?




good call!  I think I'll add a note about that...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Its kind of limited in what skills it can use, since it usually just sits there pondering evil stuff.




true... but this is an intelligent creature, so some more Knowledge-based skills would be a good idea.  Not sure how an incorporeal would benefit from Escape Artist though?  For Hide, how big of a racial bonus to hide in shadows?  We could diversify a bit with skills like Gather Information, Sense Motive, or Spellcraft.

do we keep this line?  Without it, a whisp has a +6 incorporeal touch attack, but with this line, it has a +13 to hit.
"Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity modifier to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons."

Should we add anything to the whisp's description about mindlessness?


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> typo! how dare you underestimate this thing's need for good writing skills!



Perhaps we could give them Craft (calligraphy) so they can write real pretty.  




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> true... but this is an intelligent creature, so some more Knowledge-based skills would be a good idea. Not sure how an incorporeal would benefit from Escape Artist though? For Hide, how big of a racial bonus to hide in shadows? We could diversify a bit with skills like Gather Information, Sense Motive, or Spellcraft.



My thought was that since it barely moves and hides away in remote locations, it wouldn't really have an opportunity to Gather Information.   As for Sense Motive and Spellcraft, I assume it would have to be able to use these through the whisps as well, since it has no sight/hearing of its own.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> do we keep this line? Without it, a whisp has a +6 incorporeal touch attack, but with this line, it has a +13 to hit.
> "Whisps use the presence's base attack bonus, but use their own Dexterity modifier to determine their melee attack bonus with natural weapons."



Keep it.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should we add anything to the whisp's description about mindlessness?



I'm not sure that it is necessary, since they have a "-" for Intelligence.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perhaps we could give them Craft (calligraphy) so they can write real pretty.








			
				Shade said:
			
		

> My thought was that since it barely moves and hides away in remote locations, it wouldn't really have an opportunity to Gather Information. As for Sense Motive and Spellcraft, I assume it would have to be able to use these through the whisps as well, since it has no sight/hearing of its own.




"A presence can likewise make checks for any skill with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as its key ability, through what a whisp observes."

adding Sense Motive and Spellcraft, and changing Knowledge to Knowledge (any three).  

Not sure how an incorporeal would benefit from Escape Artist though? For Hide, how big of a racial bonus to hide in shadows?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm not sure that it is necessary, since they have a "-" for Intelligence.




sounds good, as long as that can be assumed.  I mean, it's not listed for oozes and vermin, though it is listed under their type traits.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> "A presence can likewise make checks for any skill with Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma as its key ability, through what a whisp observes."



Excellent!  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> adding Sense Motive and Spellcraft, and changing Knowledge to Knowledge (any three).



That'll work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Not sure how an incorporeal would benefit from Escape Artist though? For Hide, how big of a racial bonus to hide in shadows?



Good point.  Ditch Escape Artist.   I'd give it the common +8 to Hide. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good, as long as that can be assumed. I mean, it's not listed for oozes and vermin, though it is listed under their type traits.



True.  But skeletons and zombies are mindless, and I don't believe it is listed in their descriptions nor in their type entry.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> True. But skeletons and zombies are mindless, and I don't believe it is listed in their descriptions nor in their type entry.




yes, you’re absolutely right.  OK, no need to add anything about Mindless.

Updating…


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2004)

CR 8?  It really isn't very dangerous.

Advancement:  Is there any reason it can't get bigger?   22 HD is awfully high for a Small creature.   Peraps limit it's advancement but keep it Small, or add additional size categories to cover the spread?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> CR 8? It really isn't very dangerous.




it’s practically harmless without the whisps.    and if you have ghost touch armor, it can’t even really do anything to you.  8 is just fine.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Advancement: Is there any reason it can't get bigger? 22 HD is awfully high for a Small creature. Peraps limit it's advancement but keep it Small, or add additional size categories to cover the spread?




Well, 11 HD is a lot for a Small creature to begin with.  

I don’t see what difference the size makes for this creature.  Going up to medium won’t change its Space, and it doesn’t make any attacks of its own.  The only thing I see changing is that it loses its size bonus to AC, so I don’t see why we need to make it any bigger.  I guess it would get a few more HP, but its already low Dex would go down, and it doesn’t have any natural armor to compensate since it is incorporeal.


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2004)

Points taken.  Keep it Small.  In fact, make it get _smaller _as it advances.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 3, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Points taken. Keep it Small. In fact, make it get smaller as it advances.




heh.    incorporeals really miss out on all the advantages to size increases, and get stuck with the disadvantages.  

updating again – does it look good to go?


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2004)

I think its ready for the Catalog.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> C5 - Bane of Llywelyn
> Viper Vines




Here's a plant that was missing from the polls.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

i thought it was in there?  just no votes.


----------



## Shade (Nov 7, 2005)

We're approaching a year on this one as well.  How about Pasha of the Efreet?  I know we had it earmarked for the Epic thread, but seeing as that thread is popular and this one isn't, why not just do it here?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 7, 2005)

i guess i can't skip that guy forever.    i'll have a look at that one.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 17, 2006)

here's a new one!

MASCHIN-I-BOZORG
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
No. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOUR CLASS: 1/9
MOVE: 9''
HIT DICE: 4' - 30 hp; 8' - 50 hp; 12' - 70 hp - % 
IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4' - 2 darts; 8' - 4 darts; 12' - 8 darts 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-3 per dart 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Steam, darts (stun and slow) and crush (see below)
SPECIAL DEFENCES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Non-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: 4' - S; 8' - M; 12' - L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/defence modes: Nil  
LEVEL/xp VALUE: 4' - VI/950; 8' - VII/1325; 12' - VII/1700

This diabolical machine, created by the kagu-svirfnebli, consists of a low, elongated, metal dome, whose surface is broken only by small slits through which its weapons may be fired. Only the kagu-svirfnebli understand its construction and animation. It is propelled by a multitude of small wheels that protrude from its underside. The bozorg fires darts which stun and slow (see the svirfneblin in the FIEND FOLIO* tome) and has two nozzles which epithets of steam. There are three sizes of bozorg measuring 4, 8 and 12 feet in length, and which have varying hit joints and attacks as shown. All of them attack and save as 8 hit dice monsters.

The vapour jets fire simultaneously to the fore and aft in a cone, with varying effects as follows (a successful saving throw vs. Breath means that the damage is halved): 
4' bozorg - range 3"; base diameter 1"; damage 2-8 hp 
8' bozorg - range 6"; base diameter 2"; damage 3-12 hp 
12' bozorg - range 9"; base diameter 3"; damage 4-16 hp 

The numbered darts fired per round depends on the size of the bozorg (darts can be fired in any direction): 
4' bozorg - 2 darts per round 
8' bozorg - 4 darts per round 
12' bozorg - 8 darts per round

If the bozorg rolls over a prone victim, it will cause 1-4 hit points of crushing damage each round until it moves on, or is flipped over.

If reduced to below zero hit points, a bozorg's power source will overload, rapidly heating its outer shell and causing 1-8 hit points of heat damage to anyone within 10 feet. After one round it implodes (harmlessly) and cools, becoming completely useless. If the bozorg is turned over, it cannot move and its underside (AC 9) is exposed. It during combat, a character scores a hit, having previously stated an intention to try to turn the monster over, the chance of doing so is shown below (note that no damage is done to the bozorg during the attempt): 
4' bozorg - bend bars percentage 
8' bozorg - bend bars -10% 
12' bozorg - bend bars -20% 

A bozorg can move easily over any smooth surface at an angle of less than 45 degrees. However, it will become completely immobilized by soft ground. It is immunity attacks using heat, cold or electricity as well as any attacks upon the will or mind, as the bozorg has neither.




some preliminary stats for the maschin-i-bozorg:

*Maschin-I-Bozorg*
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 8?d8+20 (6 hp) 
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 19 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: Dart +X ranged (1d3 plus X)
Full Attack: Dart +X ranged (1d3 plus X)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: crush, steam
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft, immunity to cold, electricity, and fire, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: ---
Feats: ---

Environment: Underground
Organization:  1-20
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---



Originally found in module UK4 – When a Star Falls (1984, Graeme Morris).


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Medium Construct



Size could, perhaps, vary depending on the original's length - Maybe:
4 ft = Small
8 ft = Medium
12 ft = Large
(Just seen that the original stats give the same sizes)   


> Hit Dice: 8?d8+20 (6 hp)



Constructs d10's? 
Again vary with size?
Small (4 ft): 4d10+10
Medium (8 ft): 6d10+20
Large (12 ft): 8d8+30

Armor Class:
Small (4 ft): 20 (+1 Dex, +8 natural, +1 size)
Medium (8 ft): 19 (+1 Dex, +8 natural)
Large (12 ft): 18 (+1 Dex, +8 natural, -1 size)



> Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X



Small (4 ft): +3/+X (+3 + Str Mod -4 size)
Medium (8 ft): +4/+X (+4 +Str mod)
Large (12 ft): +6/+X (+6 + Str mod +4 size)



> Full Attack: Dart +X ranged (1d3 plus X)



Size affects number of darts?
Small (4 ft): 2 darts +X ranged (1d3 plus X)
Medium (8 ft): 4 darts +X ranged (1d3 plus X)
Large (12 ft): 8 darts +X ranged (1d3 plus X)

Abilities: Str 12/16/20 depending on size?, Dex 12, Con ---, Int ---, Wis 11, Cha 10

Some special attacks/abilities

*Vapor Jets (Ex): * The bozorg fires two vapor jets, simultaneously, from its front and rear in a cone, with varying effects as follows (Reflex save for half; the Reflex save is Str based?): 
Small (4 ft) bozorg: 15 ft cone; damage 2d4 fire.
Medium (8 ft) bozorg: 30 ft cone; damage 3d4 fire.
Large (12 ft) bozorg: 45 ft cone; damage 4d4 fire.

*Power Surge (Ex): * When a bozorg is reduced to less than 0 hit points, its power supply begins to overload. This causes its outer shell to rapidly heat up and inflicts 1d8 points of fire damage to anyone within 10 ft (Reflex save for half?). The round after the bozorg harmlessly implodes and cools down, becoming completely useless.



			
				UK4 said:
			
		

> If the bozorg rolls over a prone victim, it will cause 1-4 hit points of crushing damage each round until it moves on, or is flipped over.



Is this enough to give it a trample attack?



> The bozorg fires darts which stun and slow



Poison?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2006)

> The bozorg fires darts which stun and slow (see the svirfneblin in the FIEND FOLIO* tome)




What does this imply?  Did the svirfies have similar darts in the FF?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 17, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> What does this imply?  Did the svirfies have similar darts in the FF?



Must check.

If they don't do we want to keep the darts? If so I suggest that the 'slow' be the primary effect with the stun being secondary - its not much use to have a slowed opponent 1 minute (10 rounds) into an encounter.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Jul 17, 2006)

before getting into those other concerns, i will post this:



			
				Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Each individual also carries a pouch of special darts, 7-10 hand-hurled missiles of about nine inches in length, with a 40' range and which inflict 1-3 hit points of damage. When one of these darts strikes it is constructed so as to compact and break a small glass bead containing a gas. Any creature struck on its front parts must save against poison; if it fails, the puff of gas has reached the creature's system and the creature will be _stunned_ on the next round and _slowed_ for the four rounds following that.


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2006)

Yep, definitely poison.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 17, 2006)

svirfies might not have these darts anymore (don't know; haven't looked), but as they are pretty central to the bozorgs, i would keep it for certain.


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2006)

Nothing in the MM entry, but there is this in Races of Faerun:



> Unique Items: Svirfneblin manufacture and use a number of specialized weapons particular to their race, including acid darts, crystal caltrops, *stun darts*, and flash grenades (see the appendices).


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 17, 2006)

Races of Faerun said:
			
		

> Dart, Stun: When one of these hollow darts hits a target, it releases a small puff of poison gas. The victim must make a Fortitude save (DC 12) or be stunned for one round. After one round, the target must make another Fortitude save (DC 12) or be stunned for an additional 1d4 rounds.




i think the question is, do we want to leave them like so, or try to make them more like the originals?


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2006)

I'm fine with either, but I kinda prefer the "all stunning" variety for simplicity's sake.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 17, 2006)

That's probably the best way to go.

I like Mortis' idea of giving the same HD as size.  I could also see them with having three separate stat blocks; once for each size.

As for giving it a trample attack, I don't see that.  I mean, these guys in my mind move around kind of like Daleks or something, and I really can't see them zooming around crushing people.  Besides, it says that they only do this to prone opponents, so just creatures who are lying flat on the ground.


----------



## Shade (Jul 17, 2006)

Agreed with all that.


----------



## dhaga (Jul 17, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed with all that.




Ditto.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 18, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> That's probably the best way to go.



Agreed


> I like Mortis' idea of giving the same HD as size.



 Although the original stats pretty much suggested it - except the line about them all hitting and saving as 8HD creatures.


> I could also see them with having three separate stat blocks; once for each size.



Again that follows from them having three sizes. I assume that we will work on all three simultaneously?


> As for giving it a trample attack, I don't see that.



Wasn't sure myself, which is why I queried it.  


> ...Daleks...



Woo! D20 Daleks - someone must have done them.  

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 18, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Although the original stats pretty much suggested it - except the line about them all hitting and saving as 8HD creatures.
> 
> Again that follows from them having three sizes. I assume that we will work on all three simultaneously?




indeed!  also, i decided to go 4-HD, 8-HD, and 12-HD.




			
				UK4 said:
			
		

> The vapour jets fire simultaneously to the fore and aft in a cone, with varying effects as follows (a successful saving throw vs. Breath means that the damage is halved):
> 4' bozorg - range 3"; base diameter 1"; damage 2-8 hp
> 8' bozorg - range 6"; base diameter 2"; damage 3-12 hp
> 12' bozorg - range 9"; base diameter 3"; damage 4-16 hp






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Vapor Jets (Ex): The bozorg fires two vapor jets, simultaneously, from its front and rear in a cone, with varying effects as follows (Reflex save for half; the Reflex save is Str based?):
> Small (4 ft) bozorg: 15 ft cone; damage 2d4 fire.
> Medium (8 ft) bozorg: 30 ft cone; damage 3d4 fire.
> Large (12 ft) bozorg: 45 ft cone; damage 4d4 fire.




i wish i could make a table out of that...  the sizes of the cones should probably be smaller than that.  don't think the save should be Str-based.  we also need to find a way to state that one cone comes out at one direction, and the other will always come out in the opposite direction.




			
				UK4 said:
			
		

> If reduced to below zero hit points, a bozorg's power source will overload, rapidly heating its outer shell and causing 1-8 hit points of heat damage to anyone within 10 feet. After one round it implodes (harmlessly) and cools, becoming completely useless.






			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Power Surge (Ex):* When a bozorg is reduced to less than 0 hit points, its power supply begins to overload. This causes its outer shell to rapidly heat up and inflicts 1d8 points of fire damage to anyone within 10 ft (Reflex save for half?). The round after the bozorg harmlessly implodes and cools down, becoming completely useless.




a bit of reworking...

Power Surge (Ex): When killed, a bozorg's power supply begins to overload, rapidly heating its outer shell and dealing 1d8 points of fire damage to anyone within 10 ft (Reflex DC X half). The following round, the power source harmlessly implodes and cools down, becoming completely useless.  The save DC is Constitution?-based.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i wish i could make a table out of that...  the sizes of the cones should probably be smaller than that.  don't think the save should be Str-based.  we also need to find a way to state that one cone comes out at one direction, and the other will always come out in the opposite direction.




As one of the only things that utilizes "facing", we could look to the dragon's tail sweep as inspiration...

Tail Sweep (Ex): This special attack allows a dragon of at least Gargantuan size to sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 30 feet (or 40 feet for a Colossal dragon), extending from an intersection on the edge of the dragon’s space in any direction. Creatures within the swept area are affected if they are four or more size categories smaller than the dragon. A tail sweep automatically deals the indicated damage plus 1-1/2 times the dragon’s Strength bonus (round down). Affected creatures can attempt Reflex saves to take half damage (DC equal to that of the dragon’s breath weapon).

Definition of cone:

A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners.

So maybe...

Vapor Jets (Ex): The bozorg fires two vapor jets, simultaneously, from its front and rear.  Select one corner of the bozorg's square as normal for a cone; the second cone originates from the opposite corner.  The vapor jets deal fire damage based on the bozorg's size.  A Reflex save halves the damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based. 



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> a bit of reworking...
> 
> Power Surge (Ex): When killed, a bozorg's power supply begins to overload, rapidly heating its outer shell and dealing 1d8 points of fire damage to anyone within 10 ft (Reflex DC X half). The following round, the power source harmlessly implodes and cools down, becoming completely useless.  The save DC is Constitution?-based.




Looks good.


----------



## dhaga (Jul 18, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> Power Surge (Ex): When killed, a bozorg's power supply begins to overload, rapidly heating its outer shell and dealing 1d8 points of fire damage to anyone within 10 ft (Reflex DC X half). The following round, the power source harmlessly implodes and cools down, becoming completely useless. The save DC is Constitution?-based.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Vapor Jets (Ex): The bozorg fires two vapor jets, simultaneously, from its front and rear. Select one corner of the bozorg's square as normal for a cone; the second cone originates from the opposite corner. The vapor jets deal fire damage based on the bozorg's size. A Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.




I think these both look good.  Pretty intuitive.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 18, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Vapor Jets (Ex): The bozorg fires two vapor jets, simultaneously, from its front and rear.  Select one corner of the bozorg's square as normal for a cone; the second cone originates from the opposite corner.  The vapor jets deal fire damage based on the bozorg's size.  A Reflex save halves the damage.  The save DC is Constitution-based.




works for me!


----------



## dhaga (Jul 18, 2006)

I wouldn't say a table is necessary for the cone size and damage; Mortis' text is concise enough, yet contains all the necessary info.

Shrinking the cones down would probably be a good idea, say:

Small (4 ft) bozorg: 10 ft cone; damage 2d4 fire.
Medium (8 ft) bozorg: 20 ft cone; damage 3d4 fire.
Large (12 ft) bozorg: 30 ft cone; damage 4d4 fire.

I think the damage put forth by Mortis looks good, so I kept it in the block.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 18, 2006)

those sizes work better for me.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2006)

Perfect!  And if one were to want to expand them to Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal, it would be easy to do so.


----------



## dhaga (Jul 18, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Perfect!  And if one were to want to expand them to Huge, Gargantuan, and Colossal, it would be easy to do so.




That's right; just keep on in the same pattern   Sweet!

What's next?  Work on Crush?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 18, 2006)

yep.  we need to modify crush for a slightly slow-moving creature that can only use it on prone or helpless opponents.  the damage will be small as well.


----------



## Shade (Jul 18, 2006)

Are we talking about crush or trample at this point?


----------



## BOZ (Jul 19, 2006)

good question.    it's a little bit of both at the same time, i suppose.  let's examine a few items and see what we come up with.

first of all, the smallest of these guys is 4 feet in diameter.  the recommended top weight of a Small creature is 60 pounds, but of course constructs often go higher than that.  let's say the Small bozorg is 100 pounds.  have you ever had 100 pounds of pressure on top of you?  hurts a little bit maybe, but doesn't exactly feel as if it's going to kill you does it?  i would say that since the machine is trying to roll over and hurt you, the 1d4 recommended damage would work for the smallest variety (higher damage + Str bonus for bigger models).


----------



## Mortis (Jul 19, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> indeed!  also, i decided to go 4-HD, 8-HD, and 12-HD.



No problem with the increased HD. I just took the bonus hp (for construct size) off and divided the remainder by 5.5 to give a rough guide.


> the sizes of the cones should probably be smaller than that.



On reflection the cones should be smaller - dhagas' suggestions look good to me.


> don't think the save should be Str-based.



Well they don't get a Con or I would have used that. Are there any constructs with a breath weapon etc. that we can use as a guide?


> a bit of reworking...
> 
> Power Surge (Ex): When killed, a bozorg's power supply begins to overload, rapidly heating its outer shell and dealing 1d8 points of fire damage to anyone within 10 ft (Reflex DC X half). The following round, the power source harmlessly implodes and cools down, becoming completely useless.  The save DC is Constitution?-based.



Again, no Con score but does that matter? Like the reworking though. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Vapor Jets (Ex): The bozorg fires two vapor jets, simultaneously, from its front and rear. Select one corner of the bozorg's square as normal for a cone; the second cone originates from the opposite corner. The vapor jets deal fire damage based on the bozorg's size. A Reflex save halves the damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.



I like. 


			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> first of all, the smallest of these guys is 4 feet in diameter. the recommended top weight of a Small creature is 60 pounds, but of course constructs often go higher than that. let's say the Small bozorg is 100 pounds. have you ever had 100 pounds of pressure on top of you? hurts a little bit maybe, but doesn't exactly feel as if it's going to kill you does it? i would say that since the machine is trying to roll over and hurt you, the 1d4 recommended damage would work for the smallest variety (higher damage + Str bonus for bigger models).



I would suggest that they all get the Str bon to the damage. We can always give the Small bozorg a Str of 10 or 11 (instead of my suggested 12) for a 1d4+0. 

Do we need to limit the size of creatures it can roll over? Given that it can climb a 45 degree lope bozorg size category + 1?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Well they don't get a Con or I would have used that. Are there any constructs with a breath weapon etc. that we can use as a guide?




Iron Golem:
Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of poisonous gas lasting 1 round, free action once every 1d4+1 rounds; initial damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage 3d4 Con, Fortitude DC 19 negates. The save DC is *Constitution*-based. 

Stone Golem:
Slow (Su): A stone golem can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 7 rounds, requiring a DC 17 Will save to negate. The save DC is *Constitution*-based.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 19, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Iron Golem:...
> Stone Golem:...



That's OK then.   

What have we got so far? Time for an appearance in homebrews?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 19, 2006)

i'll see if i can post them today.    there's not a lot to look at yet, but that might be a perfect reason why to post them.


----------



## dhaga (Jul 19, 2006)

How's this for Crush?

Crush (Ex): a bozorg can roll over a prone or helpless creature, dealing crushing damage with its considerable weight.  The damage dealt varies according to the bozorg’s size:
Small (4 ft): 1d4 damage (+Str mod)
Medium (8 ft): 1d8 damage (+Str mod)
Large (12 ft): 2d6 damage (+Str mod)

A bozorg can use its Crush attack on targets smaller than itself, and up to 2 size categories larger than itself.  The bozorg can use its other attacks in the same round that it uses Crush.

Alternatively, we could add a bozorg’s crush damage to it’s size-specific “stat block”.
Example: 
Small (4 ft) bozorg: 
Vapor Jet: 10 ft cone - damage 2d4 fire
Crush: 1d4 damage (+Str mod)


----------



## BOZ (Jul 19, 2006)

that's a possibility.  posting what i have in homebrews, in the meantime.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2006)

Physical ability scores of animated objects:

Small Animated Object: Str 10, Dex 12, Con -
Medium Animated Object: Str 10, Dex 12, Con -
Large Animated Object: Str 16, Dex 10, Con -

Perhaps we could use these for inspiration?   Maybe change the Med to Str 12 to differentiate a bit more?


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 19, 2006)

or plop it directly in the middle for 13?  

a Dex loss for the Large one is fine, since the Str goes up notably.


----------



## Shade (Jul 19, 2006)

Yeah, let's go with lucky 13.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 20, 2006)

should we make any changes to this?

Stun Dart (Ex): When one of these hollow darts hits a target, it releases a small puff of poison gas. The victim must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be stunned for one round. After one round, the target must succeed on a DC 12 Fortitude save or be stunned for an additional 1d4 rounds.

in Races of Faerun, they are given a 20 ft range increment.

the damage is 1d4, i assumed for Medium, so therefore the Small gets 1d2 and the Large gets 1d6.

should we state a maximum number of uses for the darts before they have to be reloaded by someone?


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2006)

Consolidating a bit...

Stun Dart (Ex): A bozorg may fire a number of darts each round as a full attack (?) action, based on its size.  These darts have a range increment of 20 feet, and release a small puff of poison gas (DC 12 Fort, initial damage stunned for 1 round, secondary damage stunned for 1d4 rounds).  A bozorg carries X darts before it must be reloaded.  (A bozorg can fire other varieties of darts appropriate for its size?).


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 20, 2006)

Actually, my bad.  since the dart is a weapon featured in the PHB (no, really!) we don't need to include all of that info.  I'll let the attack line speak to how many can be fired as a full-attack.  I want to put how the gas affects targets back the way it was in RoF.

Stun Dart (Ex): A bozorg may fire a number of hollow darts that release a small puff of poison gas upon hitting a target. The victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for one round. After one round, the target must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for an additional 1d4 rounds. A bozorg carries X darts before it must be reloaded. A bozorg can fire other varieties of darts appropriate for its size.

Do we keep the DC at 12?  Maybe so, because these are manufactured weapons?  Of course, the 12-HD variety will be fighting foes who will almost never fail their saves...

I don't see why firing other types of darts would be a problem, so we can leave that last line in there.

As for how many darts it can carry, that should be a function of size.  Maybe enough for them to fire at, say, 5 or 10 rounds using a full attack?


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2006)

10 rounds sounds good for the ammo.

We could make the DCs higher for the larger ones due to a bigger "payload" being delivered.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 20, 2006)

how would that be accomplished?  

updating in homebrews.


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## Shade (Jul 20, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how would that be accomplished?




Just saying so should suffice.  If you wanna get fancy, you could include a statement that "larger darts deliver a larger dose of the gas, thereby increasing its save DC" or something.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 20, 2006)

"The larger bozorgs carry bigger darts which contain more poison, making them more potent."


----------



## Shade (Jul 20, 2006)

That works for me.


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## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 20, 2006)

UK4 said:
			
		

> If the bozorg rolls over a prone victim, it will cause 1-4 hit points of crushing damage each round until it moves on, or is flipped over.






			
				UK4 said:
			
		

> If the bozorg is turned over, it cannot move and its underside (AC 9) is exposed. It during combat, a character scores a hit, having previously stated an intention to try to turn the monster over, the chance of doing so is shown below (note that no damage is done to the bozorg during the attempt):
> 4' bozorg - bend bars percentage
> 8' bozorg - bend bars -10%
> 12' bozorg - bend bars -20%




should we give it a flipping-over vulnerability?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 21, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> should we give it a flipping-over vulnerability?



I guess so. Strength check based on bozorg's weight?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 21, 2006)

initiated from a grapple perhaps?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> should we give it a flipping-over vulnerability?




I'd rather not...turtles (which probably inspired the vulnerability) and other similar creatures don't have a game mechanic for this type of vulnerabilty.

If anything, I'd give them a penalty on opposed rolls to avoid being tripped.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 21, 2006)

Shade what would the result of them being tripped be? There's no way, IMHO, that they could self-right. (I'm now thinking of the TV series Robot Wars  were after the first series most 'bots had a self-righting mechanism)



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> initiated from a grapple perhaps?



I would say so. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 21, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd rather not...turtles (which probably inspired the vulnerability) and other similar creatures don't have a game mechanic for this type of vulnerabilty.
> 
> If anything, I'd give them a penalty on opposed rolls to avoid being tripped.




so if you trip them, they're flipped over?  

did they give the flumph a vulnerability like that when it appeared in Dungeon mag last year?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2006)

By George, you're right!  I forgot about ol' flumphy.    

Helplessness (Ex): A flumph that is flipped over becomes helpless, disoriented, and falls to the ground. While flipped over, a flumph cannot exude acid from its tentacles--it can barely move and talk. It can attempt to right itself once per day by making a successful DC 20 Escape Artist check, but otherwise the creature is stuck until an ally flips it back over. A flumph can be flipped with a successful trip attack, or by failing its Fortitude save when exposed to high wind.

And people say the flumph is useless.  Look how helpful he was here!


----------



## Mortis (Jul 21, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> And people say the flumph is useless.  Look how helpful he was here!



 
I would add that an overturned bozorg loses its Dex to AC (which is covered under 'being helpless' ?) as well as any Natural Armor (to reflect the unarmoured underbelly).

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2006)

Losing (or reducing) the nat armor bonus is a good idea.


----------



## dhaga (Jul 21, 2006)

I'd vote for reducing the nat armor bonus rather than flat out losing it.  I'd expect the underside to be underarmored, but not entirely unarmored.  Say the underside has just 50% of the nat armor? 25%?  Am I getting too complicated?  Probably.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 21, 2006)

eh?

Helplessness (Ex): A maschin-i-bozorg that is flipped over becomes helpless. While flipped over, a bozorg cannot move, and loses its natural armor bonus. The bozorg is stuck until an ally flips it back over. A bozorg can be flipped with a successful trip attack, or (with a successful opposed grapple check?).

i think the bozorg, however, should get a bonus to resist a trip attack, such as how quadrupeds have one.


----------



## dhaga (Jul 21, 2006)

Losing the nat armor bonus is much easier to document, isn't it?  +4 bonus to resist trip attacks?

And for the darts -- I would say the larger ones would have larger darts, delivering a larger payload of poison, say increase the save DC by 2 for each size category larger than small? (medium DC would be 14, large DC would be 16, etc).  Should the initial dart damage be increased, too, since they'll be heavier? d4 for small / med, d6 for large?


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2006)

+4 is absolutely correct.



			
				PHB said:
			
		

> The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid.




The rest looks good.  I'd say rather than a grapple check, successfully pinning it could do the trick.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 21, 2006)

dhaga said:
			
		

> And for the darts -- I would say the larger ones would have larger darts, delivering a larger payload of poison, say increase the save DC by 2 for each size category larger than small? (medium DC would be 14, large DC would be 16, etc).  Should the initial dart damage be increased, too, since they'll be heavier? d4 for small / med, d6 for large?




definitely right on the increasing dart damage - i have already figured that in.  i may want to increase the poison DCs more than that; i'll give it some thought.


taking something that dhaga wrote earlier and modifying.  how does it look?

Crush (Ex): A bozorg can roll over a prone or helpless creature of up to one size larger than itself as a standard action, using its weight to crush the opponent.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Reflex save or be pinned, automatically taking 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage. The save DC is (Constitution? Strength?)-based. Thereafter, if the bozorg chooses to maintain the pin, treat it as a normal grapple attack. While pinned, the opponent takes crush damage each round.  A bozorg can use its other attack forms as normal while conducting a grapple.


The damage dealt varies according to the bozorg's size:
Small (4 ft): 1d4 damage (+Str mod)
Medium (8 ft): 1d8 damage (+Str mod)
Large (12 ft): 2d6 damage (+Str mod)


----------



## Shade (Jul 21, 2006)

That looks good.  I'd go with Str-based, like trample.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 24, 2006)

i'll work on prettying this conversion up today.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 24, 2006)

updated / cleaned up a bit.


----------



## Shade (Jul 24, 2006)

For the weights, how about 100 lbs. for Small, 250 lbs. for Medium, and 500 lbs. for Large?

Small - CR 3?
Medium - CR 5?
Large - CR 8?


----------



## Shade (Jul 24, 2006)

For AC, if we follow the normal size advancement rules:

Small = +7 natural
Med= +7 natural (same)
Large= +9 natural


----------



## BOZ (Jul 25, 2006)

that seems a bit low though.  that yields an AC of 19 for the Small, but 18 of the larger two.  how about if we set the CRs, then do a bit of comparison?

let's see, they have the stun darts and vapor jets which are cool attacks, but the DCs aren't great.  the crush is a very weak and specialized attack, and the power surge is a death throes attack, so neither of them should really figure into the CR.  the flipping over vulnerability doesn't help them much, although they may not fall victim to it very often.  they are constructs though, so they do get decent hp but sucky saves, plus a slew of immunities as well as the extra cold, fire, and electricity immunities.

they are definitely not as badass as golems, and are probably not a high challenge for the HD, but not total pushovers either.  how about CR 2 for the small, CR 5 for the Medium, and CR 8 for the Large?


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Small - CR 3?
> Medium - CR 5?
> Large - CR 8?






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> they are definitely not as badass as golems, and are probably not a high challenge for the HD, but not total pushovers either.  how about CR 2 for the small, CR 5 for the Medium, and CR 8 for the Large?




Other than the Small, it looks like we are in complete agreement.    

For the Small, they seem at least as good as, if not slightly better than, the wood and tin golems from a recent Dragon, which are both CR 3.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 25, 2006)

OK, given those CRs, what should be the target AC for constructs of these HD?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 25, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, given those CRs, what should be the target AC for constructs of these HD?



I'ld do for something like 20, 23, and 26. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2006)

AC comparisons:

CR 3 constructs:
Large Animated Object = 14
Tin Golem = 19
Wood Golem = 17

CR 5 constructs:
Huge Animated Object = 13
Chain Golem = 21
Equine Golem = 15
Junk Golem = 17
Stained Glass Golem = 15

CR 8 constructs:
Blood Golem of Hextor = 26
Brass Steed = 22
Cadaver Golem = 20
Rune Golem = 20
Serpentflesh Golem = 21
Thayan Golem = 24


So I'd recommend:
Small:  17-19
Medium: 18-21
Large:  22-23


----------



## BOZ (Jul 25, 2006)

since we've already got the Small at 19, i'll go with the high end of the range for the others.  

updating!


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2006)

Brilliant!


----------



## BOZ (Jul 25, 2006)

is it done though?


----------



## Shade (Jul 25, 2006)

I believe it is done.  Brilliantly, I might add.


----------



## dhaga (Aug 14, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I believe it is done. Brilliantly, I might add.




I agree.  Sweet!


----------



## Mortis (Aug 15, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I believe it is done.  Brilliantly, I might add.



Next 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Aug 15, 2006)

soon enough.    got to finish some higher-priority Dragon submissions.  

hey come on, you know commission work gets done before free stuff.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2006)

I4 - Oasis of the White Palm
Aeraldoth (vizier to Caliph of the Djinn)  - earmarked for epic thread
Pasha of the Efreet (Vizier of the Fire Sultan) - completed


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

BOZ gave me the go-ahead to lead some conversion threads while he focuses on the Dukes of Hell.   So here's another...

Chomper
(Modified Monster)
Armor Class:   5
Move:    9"
Hit Dice:   9
Hit Points:   40
No. of Attacks:   1 bite & 1 tail sting
Damage:   2d8/1d4 + poison (paralysis)
THACO:   12
Alignment:   N
Size:   L
Intelligence:   Animal
Sts:   14
STw:         13
Special Attacks: tail sting (save vs. poison or suffer paralysis for 2-12 turns)

The chomper is a smallish variety of purple worm (Monster Manual, pg. 80), only 20-30' long but otherwise identical. It eats rock, burrowing deep and instinctively avoiding the lethal airless lunar surface. Chompers are slightly more intelligent than purple worms. They were introduced to the moon by the Chak, who trained them to respond to simple commands, and they are the primary means of creating new tunnel systems. Tame chompers are virtually harmless, never biting creatures except by accident. Wild chompers exist, however, and are not averse to adding a bit of meat to their diet. A chompers tail stinger is poisonous, but only causes paralysis. The maw can only swallow creatures of halfling size or smaller.

Source:  I11: Needle


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

This one should be fairly easy.   If we "downsize" a purple worm to Large, we get the following...

Large Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 9d10+27 (76 hp)
Initiative: –1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), burrow 20 ft., swim 10 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, –1 Dex, +8 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+17
Attack: Bite +12 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: Bite +12 melee (1d8+4) and sting +7 melee (1d6+2 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole, poison
Special Qualities: Tremorsense 60 ft.
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 19, Dex 8, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 8, Cha 8
Skills: Listen +11, Swim +12
Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (sting) [It must lose one of these]
Environment: Underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: No coins, 50% goods (stone only), no items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 10–27 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: --

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a chomper must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial damage paralysis for X, secondary damage paralysis for X. The save DC is Constitution-based.  [2-12 turns was a long time]

Swallow Whole (Ex): A chomper can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 1d8+4 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the worm’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 14). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Large chomper's interior can hold 2 Small, 8 Tiny, or 32 Diminutive or smaller opponents.  [We should probably lessen the acid damage and the amount of damage to cut out]

Skills: A chomper has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Chompers are slightly more intelligent than purple worms.



Int 2?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Yeah, that works perfectly with "animal" intelligence.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 20, 2007)

heh


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Feats: Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (bite), Weapon Focus (sting) [It must lose one of these]



How about losing Weapon Focus (bite) as, at least the tame ones, never bite anything except by accident.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Large Magical Beast
> ...
> Swallow Whole (Ex): A chomper can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of *a smaller size * than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 1d8+4 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the worm’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 14). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Large chomper's interior can hold *2 Small, 8 Tiny, or 32 Diminutive or smaller opponents*.  [We should probably lessen the acid damage and the amount of damage to cut out]



Should it be able to swallow creatures two sizes smaller or hold 2 Mediums etc?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> How about losing Weapon Focus (bite) as, at least the tame ones, never bite anything except by accident.




Good call.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Should it be able to swallow creatures two sizes smaller or hold 2 Mediums etc?




I think the former is probably truer to the original.  What do you think?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think the former is probably truer to the original.  What do you think?



I'd say so.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

Just a few things before we can finish this one up.



> Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial damage paralysis for X, secondary damage paralysis for X. The save DC is Constitution-based. [2-12 turns was a long time]




What should the paralysis duration be?  2-12 turns equals 20-120 minutes.   Maybe 2d6 rounds initital, and 2d6 minutes secondary?



> Swallow Whole (Ex): A chomper can try to swallow a grabbed opponent up to two size categories smaller than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 1d8+4 points of crushing damage plus 8 points of acid damage per round from the worm’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 25 points of damage to the gizzard (AC 14). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out. A Large chomper's interior can hold 2 Small, 8 Tiny, or 32 Diminutive or smaller opponents. [We should probably lessen the acid damage and the amount of damage to cut out]




For the cut out, does 15 points seem reasonable for a downsized purple worm?  That's essentially a 5-point reduction per size category.

We also need its CR.  If we reverse advance a purple worm, it goes down 2 CRs for the drop in size category, and 2 more for the HD reduction.  That would make it CR 8.  Does that seem about right?


----------



## Mortis (Jun 25, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe 2d6 rounds initital, and 2d6 minutes secondary?



Looks reasonable.



> For the cut out, does 15 points seem reasonable for a downsized purple worm?  That's essentially a 5-point reduction per size category.



Again, looks good.

Reduce acid damage to 4 points?



> We also need its CR.  If we reverse advance a purple worm, it goes down 2 CRs for the drop in size category, and 2 more for the HD reduction.  That would make it CR 8.  Does that seem about right?



I'm tempted to go down to 7 - most pc's are immune to it's Swallow Whole ability.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 25, 2007)

That all sounds good.   Updated in Homebrews.  I think we're finished.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated in Homebrews.  I think we're finished.



I'd say so, anyone else?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

Next...

*Glommer*
(Adapted Monster)
Armor Class:  5 
Move:    12"
Hit Dice:   6
No. of Attacks:   4 claws or weapons
Damage:   1d4 (X4) or by weapon
THACO:   13
Alignment:   NE
Size:   M
Intelligence:   animal
STs:    16
Stw:   15

The glommer is a four-armed carnivorous ape, perhaps a mutation, brought to the moon from its native jungles by evil Chak. Using all four arms, a glommer has an effective Strength of 22 (carry 1,000 lb. weight, open doors 11 in 12, wizard locks 4 in 12, and bend bars/lift gates 80%).

Glommers normally use no weapons. They may be taught to use clubs or throw rocks, but not other weapons. With either weapon, no penalties "to hit" or to damage apply for multiple attacks. Club damage is standard (1d6/1d3), and small rocks may be thrown to 3"/6"/9" ranges, for Dmg 1-4 each. If all four of an unarmed glommer's claw attacks hit a single opponent, an extra 2-20 points of rending damage are automatically inflicted. If three claws hit, rending damage is 1-12. If only two hit, rending damage is 1-8.

Source: I11: Needle


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

At first glance, it doesn't appear much different than a girallon.   However, it does have rock throwing, some weapon proficiencies, and is only Medium.

Elsewhere in the module, it mentions that they can make powerful jumps, so it might possess different skill bonuses as well.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 26, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Using all four arms, a glommer has an effective Strength of 22 (carry 1,000 lb. weight, open doors 11 in 12, wizard locks 4 in 12, and bend bars/lift gates 80%).



Count it as a quadruped when using all four arms to lift?

How about the 'powerful build' quality?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 26, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Count it as a quadruped when using all four arms to lift?
> 
> How about the 'powerful build' quality?




I really like the first option...that definitely differentiates it from the girallon.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Modified girallon stats including change in size.

Str should have been reduced to 14 but I only reduced it to 15 so that it could lift the 1,000 lbs stated when using all four arms.

Con should have been reduced to 10, but that seemed too low, so I split the dfference. 

Glommer
Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 6d10+12 (45 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 40 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (+4 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+8
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d3+2) or rock +10 ranged (1d4+2)
Full Attack: 4 claws +8 melee (1d3+2) and bite +7 melee (1d6+1) or rock +10 ranged (1d4+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d3+3, rock throwing
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +9, Will +3
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +11, Hide +5, Jump +11, Listen +5, Move Silently +6, Spot +5
Feats:Alertness, Toughness (2)
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary or company (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 
Level Adjustment: —

_desc_

Combat
A glommer can be trained to use a simple club as a weapon.

Muscular coordination (Ex): When a glommer uses all four of it's forearms to lift a weight, it counts as being a quadruped for the purpose of carrying capacity, maximum load etc.

Rend (Ex): A glommer that hits with two or more claw attacks latches onto the opponent’s body and tears the flesh. This attack automatically deals an extra 2d3+3 points of damage.

Rock throwing (Ex): The range increment is 10 feet for a glommer’s thrown rocks. 

Skills: A glommer has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. A glommer has a +4 racial bonus on Jump checks.

Does that seem ok, any changes/improvements needed?

<edit>updated with suggestions

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

Lookin' good.

I think we should add in some Listen ranks, as both the ape and dire ape possess them.

Let's swap out Iron Will for Alertness, to more closely mimic other apes.   Also, it appears elsewhere in the module that they are easily enslaved so its a bit antithetical to Iron Will.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think we should add in some Listen ranks, as both the ape and dire ape possess them.



Taken a rank of each of Climb and Jump and given them to Listen.



> Let's swap out Iron Will for Alertness, to more closely mimic other apes.   Also, it appears elsewhere in the module that they are easily enslaved so its a bit antithetical to Iron Will.



That's done as well.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

I added what you compiled to Homebrews.


----------



## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I added what you compiled to Homebrews.



Looks done to me - except for the range increment for the thrown rocks.

The original had three range brackets of 3/6/9 for a maximum range of 45 feet. So if we have a increment of 10 that gives  a maximum range of 50 feet, close enough?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jun 29, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> The original had three range brackets of 3/6/9 for a maximum range of 45 feet. So if we have a increment of 10 that gives  a maximum range of 50 feet, close enough?




That'll work.

It looks like all that's left is flavor text.


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## Mortis (Jul 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It looks like all that's left is flavor text.



Perhaps the glommer is to the chimpanzee what the giraillon is to the gorilla?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Perhaps the glommer is to the chimpanzee what the giraillon is to the gorilla?




I like it!


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## Shade (Aug 2, 2007)

Here's one to keep you busy while I'm on vacation next week...

Chak
(New Monster)
Armor Class:   5 (AC 0 if armored)
Move:    9*21
Hit Dice:  5 
No. of Attacks:  1 weapon, 2 lightwand, or bite
Damage:   by weapon or 1d6 + poison
THACO:   15
Alignment:   Any
Size:   L
Intelligence:   Avg. to High
STs:    14
STw:    13
Special Attacks:  poisonous bite, weapons, lightwands (13 charges each)
Special Defense:   shift out of phase

The Chak are a race of intelligent beings closely related to phase spiders. They are the dominant creatures in Part 3 of this adventure. The Chak have prospered as merchants, trading among many of the races of the Inner Planes of Existence. Their society is large and advanced. Planets are ruled by local kings serving an emperor who rules from the race's home planet somewhere in the Prime Plane.

Individual Chak may be of any alignment but tend to associate only with those of similar alignment (at least along good-evil lines). The average Chak lives over a thousand years. All Chak speak a common language of the same name, and many have learned to speak human Common and several other tongues through their dealings with other races. When speaking a "foreign language," their speech patterns mimic their teachers. They develop some odd colloquial expressions, and these habits are hard to break. (The "gee whiz" phrase came into their vocabulary from contact with a paladin some 800 years past.)

Noble Chak are 1-4 Hit Dice larger than the average, with a corresponding damage bonus (1-4), and are AC 3. Kings have at least 10 Hit Dice, with bite damage 2d10 and AC0.

The most common weapon used by the Chak is the lightwand, a seemingly innocent, light-producing device which, when fitted with a special control ring, can be fired as a laser (range 120', #AT 2/round, Dmg 2d8, save vs. wands for 1/2 damage; target treated as AC 10 modified for magic or dexterity only). Other small weapons, such as daggers or hand axes, are also used. In their lair, over 40% of the Chak encountered are armed with lightwand weapons.

Chak spin webs, but only in their residences, not throughout a Chak community. A webbed victim of 18 or greater Strength can break free in one round. For each point of Strength under 18, it takes one additional round to break free of Chak webbing.

Though Chak can shift out of phase as normal phase spiders, entering the Ethereal Plane at will and returning when desired, they consider it very impolite to do so. Besides, the Ether is cold and possibly dangerous, so it is normally used only as a route to other planes, except in emergencies (such as attacks). In addition, items carried by the Chak do not go to the Ethereal Plane with them.

From I11: Needle


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## Mortis (Aug 3, 2007)

Well we can obviously use the Phase Spider's stats as a basis.

We just need to increase Int to 10+ (12?) and include some rules for the 'lightwand'.

Environment and Organization will need changing too.

Include By character class to Advancement?

Alignment: Any?

Give them a Level Adjustment?

Should we alter Ethereal Jaunt to reflect that chaks canot take objects with them?

Borrowing the web entry of monstrous spiders, which we should be able to shorten. 


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> Web (Ex)
> Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.
> 
> Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.
> ...




For a Large spider a web has the following stats the Escape Artist DC is 13, Break DC 17, and has 12 hp.

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Aug 8, 2007)

Ok to kick start this one here are most of the stats

*CHAK*
*Large Magical Beast*
*Hit Dice:* 5d10+15 (42 hp)
*Initiative:* +7? (+3 Dex, +4 Improved Initiative?)
*Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), climb 20 ft.
*Armor Class:* 5 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+12 
*Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d6+4 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* Bite +7 melee (1d6+4 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft./5 ft.
*Special Attacks:* Poison
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., ethereal jaunt, low-light vision
*Saves:* Fort +7, Ref +7, Will +2
*Abilities:* Str 17, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 13, Cha 10 
*Skills: 24
Feats:* 2 (Improved Initiative)

*Environment:* X
*Organization:* X
*Challenge Rating:* X
*Treasure:* X
*Alignment:* X
*Advancement:* X
*Level Adjustment:* X



*Ethereal Jaunt (Su): *A chak can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action (or during a move action). The ability is otherwise identical with _ethereal jaunt_ (caster level 15th) except that the chak can take no equipment with him.

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial and secondary damage 1d8 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Web (Ex): *Chaks can create sheets of sticky webbing (up to X feet square). These webs are almost always spun in the chak's own residence not outside. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become entangled. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check (DC 13) or burst it with a Strength check (DC 17). Both are standard actions. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has 12 hit points, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.
A chak can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

*Skills: *A chak has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. 


Regards
Mortis


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## GrayLinnorm (Aug 8, 2007)

These guys are a lot like the planar spiders from the D&D Masters' Set (they later appeared in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium).


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## Mortis (Aug 8, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> These guys are a lot like the planar spiders from the D&D Masters' Set (they later appeared in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium).



Hmmmm!!!! 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> These guys are a lot like the planar spiders from the D&D Masters' Set (they later appeared in the Mystara Monstrous Compendium).




Interesting.  They appear to be the same creatures.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Since they "prosper as merchants", perhaps skill and feat selection should represent this?   Appraise, Diplomacy, Persuasive, etc.


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## dhaga (Sep 20, 2007)

Good idea on the skills.  Appraise +9, Diplomacy +8, + one more at max rank?
Sense Motive? (+9)


----------



## Shade (Sep 20, 2007)

Sense Motive would be very useful in mercantile transactions.


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## dhaga (Sep 20, 2007)

Appraise +9, Diplomacy +8, Sense Motive +9, then?  How does that sit with folks?


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## dhaga (Sep 20, 2007)

Feats: Improved Init and Persuasive ?

What about the light wand?  
I was thinking: Ray attack, 60 ft. max range, no increment.  I don't have my books handy; does Searing Light do "fire" damage, or is it actually "light" damage?  The light wand should have a similar effect, I would think.  2d6 damage?


----------



## Mortis (Sep 21, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Appraise +9, Diplomacy +8, Sense Motive +9, then?  How does that sit with folks?



Fine with me

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Sep 21, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Appraise +9, Diplomacy +8, Sense Motive +9, then?  How does that sit with folks?




That's two ranks too many (unless I'm missing something), but we can go with 3 ranks for all 8 and go from there.

On second thought, Persuasive might not be the best feat, since it grants bonuses to Bluff and Intimidate.  I think I confused it with Negotiator, which buffs Diplomacy and Sense Motive.  Does this sound better?



> The most common weapon used by the Chak is the lightwand, a seemingly innocent, light-producing device which, when fitted with a special control ring, can be fired as a laser (range 120', #AT 2/round, Dmg 2d8, save vs. wands for 1/2 damage; target treated as AC 10 modified for magic or dexterity only). Other small weapons, such as daggers or hand axes, are also used. In their lair, over 40% of the Chak encountered are armed with lightwand weapons.






			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> Ray attack, 60 ft. max range, no increment. I don't have my books handy; does Searing Light do "fire" damage, or is it actually "light" damage? The light wand should have a similar effect, I would think. 2d6 damage?






> Focusing divine power like a ray of the sun, you project a blast of light from your open palm. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to strike your target. A creature struck by this ray of light takes 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8). An undead creature takes 1d6 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), and an undead creature particularly vulnerable to bright light takes 1d8 points of damage per caster level (maximum 10d8). A construct or inanimate object takes only 1d6 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d6).




Here's a slightly similar weapon:



> Etherblade: Resembling a short glaive topped with a hollow barrel, this favored weapon of the ethergaunts can fire a ray of force as a ranged touch attack for 1d6 points of damage. The etherblade ray has a range increment of 40 feet. The weapon can fire 50 times before it is exhausted. It cannot be recharged.  An etherblade can be used as a two-handed weapon in melee combat to deal 1d10 points of slashing damage. A fully-charged etherblade has a market price of 800 gp.




So gathering all these ideas together...

Lightwand:  This weapon resembles a normal sunrod (but slightly smaller?), but with a special control ring, can be converted into a deadly weapon.   With the ring attached, a lightwand can fire a ray of light to a range of 60 feet with no range increment.  A creature struck by this ray of light takes 2d8 points of damage. An undead creature takes 4d6 points of damage, and an undead creature particularly vulnerable to bright light takes 4d8 points of damage. A construct or inanimate object takes only 2d6 points of damage.  A control ring can be used to generate 50 rays before it becomes powerless and must be replaced.  A lightwand has a market price of X gp (same as sunrod?), and a fully-charged control ring has a market price of X gp.


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## Mortis (Sep 21, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> On second thought, Persuasive might not be the best feat, since it grants bonuses to Bluff and Intimidate.  I think I confused it with Negotiator, which buffs Diplomacy and Sense Motive.  Does this sound better?



Yup I think Negotiator fits the flavour of the chak better.



> Lightwand:  This weapon resembles a normal sunrod (but slightly smaller?), but with a special control ring, can be converted into a deadly weapon.   With the ring attached, a lightwand can fire a ray of light to a range of 60 feet with no range increment.  A creature struck by this ray of light takes 2d8 points of damage. An undead creature takes 4d6 points of damage, and an undead creature particularly vulnerable to bright light takes 4d8 points of damage. A construct or inanimate object takes only 2d6 points of damage.  A control ring can be used to generate 50 rays before it becomes powerless and must be replaced.  A lightwand has a market price of X gp (same as sunrod?), and a fully-charged control ring has a market price of X gp.




I like it

Regards
Mortis


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## dhaga (Sep 21, 2007)

Negotiator! That's what we wanted, yes 

For the skills -- max ranks for all 3 is good; isn't that 8 ranks each?

The lightwand text looks great, Shade.  The lightwand can have the same market price as a sunrod. We could make it easy and say the control ring can be fitted over a sunrod, to avoid having to provide new lighting stats for the wand.  The control ring is going to be the expensive part, surely.  Not sure what the market price should be.


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## Shade (Sep 21, 2007)

An excellent suggestion!

The etherblade does less damage, and is 800 gp.   Maybe 1,200 gp for this?


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## dhaga (Sep 21, 2007)

1200 gp sounds fair to me 
Lightwand ranged touch +7 (I think)

I believe the Armor Class should be 15, instead of 5 

Environment: Any?
Organization: Solitary, Cluster (2-5), or Community (? - ?)


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## Shade (Sep 24, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> 1200 gp sounds fair to me
> Lightwand ranged touch +7 (I think)
> 
> I believe the Armor Class should be 15, instead of 5
> ...




Good catches on my miscalculations and typos.    

Any will probably wourk for environment.

Since they have kings, I'd imagine a community could be rather large.  At least 100, probably.   Thoughts?



> Noble Chak are 1-4 Hit Dice larger than the average, with a corresponding damage bonus (1-4), and are AC 3. Kings have at least 10 Hit Dice, with bite damage 2d10 and AC0.




Special advancement?


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## dhaga (Sep 24, 2007)

Community (100 - 1000)

Advancement: 6-9 (Large, Noble); 10-15 (Huge, King)

Then note the stat changes at the bottom of the creature entry.
Something like:
Noble chak are stronger and tougher than normal chak.
Make the following adjustments for Noble chak:
- +4 Str
- +2 natural armor
Noble chak otherwise have the same statistics as normal chak.

King chak are the largest and toughest of their kind.
Make the following adjustments for King chak:
- size increase Large to Huge (include stat changes in the stat block for ease of use)
- +4 natural armor
- bonus feat: Improved Natural Attack

Thoughts?

Aside from advancement details, do we need anything else for the Chak?


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

CR 5?

Standard treasure?


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## dhaga (Oct 2, 2007)

CR 5 and Standard treasure sound fine to me.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2007)

Good deal.   Per the Savage Species guidelines, LA breaks down as follows:

+1 for climb speed
+1 for natural armor
+1 for unbalanced ability scores
+2 for Con-damaging poison
----------------------------
+5 total

Does this sound about right?


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## dhaga (Oct 9, 2007)

> Does this sound about right?




Sure does


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2007)

Next!

*Tin Man*
(New Monster)
Armor Class:   6
Move:    9"
Hit Dice:   6
Hit Points:   27
No. of Attacks:   1 axe or fist
Damage:   1-8 or 1-4
THACO:   13
Alignment:   N
Size:    M(6')
Intelligence:  non

The tin man is a tin golem, found during Part 2 of this adventure. Long ago, the Chak bought it from another race and sold it to the Grippli. If the party brings the tin man along, they may learn how to activate and control it by talking with the Chak advisors, and it may prove useful.

Once activated, the tin man always speaks when spoken to, but it has no brain and offers only random comments or answers to any questions. It is immune to most spells, but water- or ice-based attacks (normal or magical) cause it to become stiff and immobile in 1-4 rounds. (Thorough oiling will free it.) It can be affected by normal or magical weapons. When reduced to 0 hp or less, it is not destroyed but merely immobilized. It can only be destroyed by melting in red dragon breath or hotter. The tin man can be activated or deactivated by the command word "Zihweeg."

The tin man is immune to damage from lightwands; its shiny surface reflects the shots. If a shot hits, however, it is reflected in a random direction (roll 1d6): 
Die Roll (1d6) Direction
1        90 degrees left
2        45 degrees left
3        Back at attacker
4        45 degrees right
5        90 degrees right
6        Straight up

Any target in the path of the reflection must make a saving throw vs. wands or take 1-8 points of damage.

Source: I11: Needle


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Next!
> 
> *Tin Man*
> (
> ...




I thought it was the scarecrow who had no brain.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> I thought it was the scarecrow who had no brain.




Wasn't that the lion?


----------



## freyar (Oct 10, 2007)

Tin man has no heart, scarecrow has no brain, lion has no courage.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

Anyhow...    

Tin Man
Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 6d10+20 (53 hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (+4 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+x
Attack: Slam +x melee (x+x) or "axe" +x melee (x+x)
Full Attack: Slam +x melee (x+x) and/or "axe" +x melee (x+x)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: -
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision, "reflective surface"
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or gang (3-4)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 7-12 HD (Medium); 13-18 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: -


----------



## dhaga (Oct 10, 2007)

> When reduced to 0 hp or less, it is not destroyed but merely immobilized. It can only be destroyed by melting in red dragon breath or hotter.




This would be an interesting mechanic to keep.

*Nigh Indestructible (Su):* When reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by non-fire sources, a tin man is not destroyed, merely immobilized.  Only fire can cause sufficient structural damage to destroy a tin man.


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## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> This would be an interesting mechanic to keep.
> 
> *Nigh Indestructible (Su):* When reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by non-fire sources, a tin man is not destroyed, merely immobilized.  Only fire can cause sufficient structural damage to destroy a tin man.




I like!


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## dhaga (Oct 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like!



Woot.

Probably not super strong.  Str. 18? 20 at most, I would say.  Dex 7 or 8.
+4 natural armor?



> It is immune to most spells, but water- or ice-based attacks (normal or magical) cause it to become stiff and immobile in 1-4 rounds. (Thorough oiling will free it.)




*Seize (Ex):* Any water- or ice-based attack will cause the tin man to seize up and become immobile in 1d4 rounds.  A full round spent oiling the tin man’s joints will allow it to move freely again.

We could leave it at that, neither stating nor denying that oiling is the ONLY way to free him.  Leave it up to imaginative players and DMs to find other ways, if no oil is available… 

Or we could state that without oiling, the tin man will be able to move freely again in X rounds.


----------



## Shade (Oct 11, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Probably not super strong.  Str. 18? 20 at most, I would say.  Dex 7 or 8.
> +4 natural armor?




Looking at similar size, similar composition golems:

Tin Golem:  Str 14, Dex 10,
Chain Golem:  Str 18, Dex 17
Junk Golem:  Str 18, Dex 8

So I'd say your recommendations are about on target.   Let's go with Str 18, Dex 8.



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> *Seize (Ex):* Any water- or ice-based attack will cause the tin man to seize up and become immobile in 1d4 rounds.  A full round spent oiling the tin man’s joints will allow it to move freely again.
> 
> We could leave it at that, neither stating nor denying that oiling is the ONLY way to free him.  Leave it up to imaginative players and DMs to find other ways, if no oil is available…
> 
> Or we could state that without oiling, the tin man will be able to move freely again in X rounds.




Sounds good.  Modifying slightly...

*Immunity to Magic (Ex):* A tin man is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

Any spell with cold or water descriptor deals no damage but causes the golem to seize up (see seize).

*Seize (Ex):* A tin man is immune to cold damage, but if it is targeted by or caught within the area of a cold or water-based effect (such as being struck by a frost weapon, a ray of frost, or within the area of a sleet storm) will cause the tin man to seize up and become immobile in 1d4 rounds.  A full round spent oiling the tin man’s joints will allow it to move freely again.

How do we want to deal with mundane cold and water?  Do we want to specify a certain temperature upon which it will seize up?   Does it need to be submerged in water, or simply within a rainstorm?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How do we want to deal with mundane cold and water? Do we want to specify a certain temperature upon which it will seize up? Does it need to be submerged in water, or simply within a rainstorm?




I'd say any temperature below freezing will cause it to seize up.  Since any water-based effect will do it, I'd say a rainstorm would be sufficient, as well.  Anything that causes water to drip down onto the joints.


----------



## Shade (Oct 12, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

How do we want to deal with this:



> The tin man is immune to damage from lightwands; its shiny surface reflects the shots. If a shot hits, however, it is reflected in a random direction (roll 1d6):
> Die Roll (1d6) Direction
> 1 90 degrees left
> 2 45 degrees left
> ...


----------



## dhaga (Oct 12, 2007)

> The tin man is immune to damage from lightwands; its shiny surface reflects the shots. If a shot hits, however, it is reflected in a random direction (roll 1d6):
> Die Roll (1d6) Direction
> 1 90 degrees left
> 2 45 degrees left
> ...




We could expand on it to include directed magical attacks, including magic missile, like the Tarrasque and its reflective carapace.

The text can remain similar, change the roll to 1d8 and use the grenade table to determine the direction of reflection (or 1d10 and allow up and down as directions).

The last part can be rewritten to "Any target in the path of the reflection must succeed at an appropriate saving throw for the effect (if one is allowed) or take full damage."

So if a magic missile got reflected and hit someone, they would take full damage, with no save, since magic missile does not allow a save.


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## Mortis (Oct 13, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> We could expand on it to include directed magical attacks, including magic missile, like the Tarrasque and its reflective carapace.
> 
> ...
> 
> The last part can be rewritten to "Any target in the path of the reflection must succeed at an appropriate saving throw for the effect (if one is allowed) or take full damage."



Change 'or take full damage' to 'or suffer the full effect' (or something similar) for those cases in which damage is not caused but another effect is such as petrification for example.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

How's this?

"Reflective Surface" (Ex): The tin man's shiny surface deflects all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.  Roll 1d8 to determine the direction of the reflection, with 1 being straight back at the source of the effect and 2 through 8 counting clockwise around the tin man. Any target in the path of the reflection must succeed at an appropriate saving throw for the effect (if one is allowed) or suffer the full effect.


----------



## Raven Crowking (Oct 15, 2007)

I would just like to take a moment to thank you guys for doing all this work, which has definitely made the game better IMHO.

RC


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2007)

RC, I know Shade responded to you elsewhere, but I'd also like to say that you're welcome.  This is fun stuff, much better than making NPC stat blocks! 



> The tin man can be activated or deactivated by the command word "Zihweeg."




*Deactivation (Ex):* The tin man becomes immobilized if it hears the word "Zihweeg."  This same command word reactivates the tin man if it is immobilized due to deactivation (but not due to damage).


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## dhaga (Oct 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> "Reflective Surface" (Ex): The tin man's shiny surface deflects all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells. Check for reflection before rolling to overcome the creature’s spell resistance.  Roll 1d8 to determine the direction of the reflection, with 1 being straight back at the source of the effect and 2 through 8 counting clockwise around the tin man. Any target in the path of the reflection must succeed at an appropriate saving throw for the effect (if one is allowed) or suffer the full effect.




Looks great, Shade 



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Deactivation (Ex): The tin man becomes immobilized if it hears the word "Zihweeg." This same command word reactivates the tin man if it is immobilized due to deactivation (but not due to damage).




Looks good to me 

Str 18 and Dex 8 allow us to fill in some more x's:
Initiative: -1
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+8
Attack: Slam +8 melee ((1d6?)+4) or "axe" +8 melee (1d8?+4/x3)


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

I went back into the module, and it looks like the tin man simply has the option of wielding an axe.  The axe is not part of its body.

Thus, the attack lines should be:

Attack: Slam +8 melee (1d6+4) or battleaxe +8 melee (1d8+4/x3)
Full Attack: 2 slams +8 melee (1d6+4) or battleaxe +8 melee (1d8+4/x3)

Attached is the pic of tin man:


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## dhaga (Oct 15, 2007)

Looks good.  Just need a CR, and some text.
CR 3?  It's hard to kill, but will become immobilized quickly if assaulted physically.

Text:
The tin man is a tin golem.  Once activated, using the command word, the tin man always speaks when spoken to, but it has no brain and offers only random comments or answers to any questions.

Tactics:
A tin man is a straightforward combatant, approaching the nearest opponent and slamming with its fists or slashing with an axe until it or the opponent has stopped moving.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

1,000 pounds sound good?


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## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Updated in Homebrews.
> 
> 1,000 pounds sound good?



Depends on how solid it is - just a couple of hundred pounds if hollow.

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Depends on how solid it is - just a couple of hundred pounds if hollow.




Since it doesn't say...any preferences?


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## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since it doesn't say...any preferences?



Let's compromise - 500 lbs 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

That'll work!

Do we want to do a construction section for these guys?


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## Mortis (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to do a construction section for these guys?



I suppose we better but I'm getting off now and wont be back til Thursday 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

Let's see if we can't get this accomplished before Mortis gets back.    

Here's the construction of the similar composition and similarly-CRed tin golem:



> Construction
> The materials involved in the construction of a tin golem's body are inexpensive (400 gp), but the actual crafting of the body is more difficult. To craft the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check. The body is then infused with with magial energies and components that turn the inanimate metal into a construct.
> CL 5th; Craft Construct, fox's cunning, magic mouth, mending, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 6,400 gp; Cost 3,400 gp + 240 XP.




So maybe swap out the requisite spells with mirror image (for the reflective surface since spell turning is too high-level), grease (to represent oiling the joints), and bull's strength?


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## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So maybe swap out the requisite spells with mirror image (for the reflective surface since spell turning is too high-level), grease (to represent oiling the joints), and bull's strength?




Grease and Bull's Strength sound good; mirror image is correct in the name, but the effect is not really what we are looking for. Too bad there's not a lower-level spell turning effect...


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Grease and Bull's Strength sound good; mirror image is correct in the name, but the effect is not really what we are looking for. Too bad there's not a lower-level spell turning effect...




Indeed.  Sometimes you just have to get close in spirit.  Maybe misdirection would work better?


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## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Indeed.  Sometimes you just have to get close in spirit.  Maybe misdirection would work better?



I think misdirection would be a better choice, in this case.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

So...

The materials involved in the construction of a tin golem's body are inexpensive (400 gp), but the actual crafting of the body is more difficult. To craft the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check. The body is then infused with with magial energies and components that turn the inanimate metal into a construct. 
CL 5th; Craft Construct, bull's strength, grease, misdirection, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 6,400 gp; Cost 3,400 gp + 240 XP. 

Wanna change anything else or go with this?


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## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So...
> 
> The materials involved in the construction of a tin golem's body are inexpensive (400 gp), but the actual crafting of the body is more difficult. To craft the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check. The body is then infused with with magial energies and components that turn the inanimate metal into a construct.
> CL 5th; Craft Construct, bull's strength, grease, misdirection, caster must be at least 5th level; Price 6,400 gp; Cost 3,400 gp + 240 XP.
> ...




That looks good to me


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

Here's the last one from I11.  I'm not sure if this even needs to be a unique creature.  Maybe a template, or maybe simply a brief paragraph as a roc variant.

*Roc, Moon*
(Adapted Monster)
Armor Class: 4
Move: 3" /24"
Hit Dice: 18
No. of Attacks: 2 claws or 1 beak
Damage: 	3d6/3d6 or 4d6
THACO: 	7
Alignment: N
Size: L (70' wingspread)
Intelligence: animal
STs: 11
Stw: 10

The lunar variety of this species was created by some mad wizard. Moon rocs need no air and fly magically, using their wings only for stability. They are immune to all gases and feed on and are cured by light and heat, absorbed through the wings. Moon rocs are otherwise very similar to their terrestrial cousins.

From elsewhere in the module:

"Just in time!" pants Ackack. "Gee whiz; have to fix that later." If questioned, he describes the two predatory creatures of the lunar surface: rock creatures which stand about 10 feet tall, and huge birds like the one just seen, which have a 70-foot wing-spread. "They appear similar to birds of your world," Ackack comments, "but have adapted to ours. Great and fierce creatures they are, who do not know fear. You will probably not encounter any in your travels, but if you do, beware! Gee whiz! They are called moon rocs."


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## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

Could easily take the Roc stat block, and just make these a variation on those massive birds.


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Could easily take the Roc stat block, and just make these a variation on those massive birds.



Yeah, just add their immunities, special healing, etc.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> The lunar variety of this species was created by some mad wizard. Moon rocs need no air and fly magically, using their wings only for stability. They are immune to all gases and feed on and are cured by light and heat, absorbed through the wings. Moon rocs are otherwise very similar to their terrestrial cousins.




So...

SQ:  Fast healing X, "immunity to gases"

Is there a precedent for immunity to gases?

Fast Healing (Ex): A moon roc heals only if it is within an area with greater than shadowy illumination or with a temperature greater than X degrees.

Flight (Su): Although a moon roc possesses wings, it can fly by means of magic. This effect cannot be dispelled.


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Is there a precedent for immunity to gases?



I don't know, there doesn't seem to many gas effects around now, for example in the old days a green dragon would breath chlorine gas.



> Fast Healing (Ex): A moon roc heals only if it is within an area with greater than shadowy illumination or with a temperature greater than X degrees.



Fast Healing 3? 
Temperature 50 degrees?



> Flight (Su): Although a moon roc possesses wings, it can fly by means of magic. This effect cannot be dispelled.



Should it also have a non-magical glide?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I don't know, there doesn't seem to many gas effects around now, for example in the old days a green dragon would breath chlorine gas.




Now that I think about it, there is a breathless ability that would make more sense here, since it needs to breathe in an environment without a breathable atmosphere.  Now which monster has that...



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Fast Healing 3?
> Temperature 50 degrees?




Both sound good.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Should it also have a non-magical glide?




Yeah.  I'd imagine if one was captured and transported to a non-moon, it could probably still fly.   Agree?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Now that I think about it, there is a breathless ability that would make more sense here, since it needs to breathe in an environment without a breathable atmosphere.  Now which monster has that...



There are a number of 'moon' monsters such as the mooncalf, maybe one of those?
Just checked MMII and the moonbeast, mooncalf, and moonrat don't have the ability.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Bingo!

Breathless: Air genasi do not breathe, so they are immune to drowning, suffocation, and attacks that require inhalation (such as some types of poisons).


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Bingo!
> 
> Breathless: Air genasi do not breathe, so they are immune to drowning, suffocation, and attacks that require inhalation (such as some types of poisons).



Brilliant - although it makes you wonder how all those other lunar creatures cope 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Brilliant - although it makes you wonder how all those other lunar creatures cope




Indeed.  I think WotC really missed the mark in 3e on exploring other planets/worlds/moons/etc.  Other than the Spelljammer thing in Poly, it was basically ignored.   I guess they figured D20 Modern and D20 Future could pick up the slack.


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

For the magical flight, should we mimic the fly spell, increasing the maneuverability to good and reducing speed to 60 feet?

Is the fast healing and breathless enough to bump up the CR by 1?


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For the magical flight, should we mimic the fly spell, increasing the maneuverability to good and reducing speed to 60 feet?



Absolutely



> Is the fast healing and breathless enough to bump up the CR by 1?



I'd say so.

Regards
Mortis


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 18, 2007)

If they're cured by absorbing light and heat, shouldn't light and fire based attacks heal them?


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## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> If they're cured by absorbing light and heat, shouldn't light and fire based attacks heal them?



I'd say so.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> If they're cured by absorbing light and heat, shouldn't light and fire based attacks heal them?




Probably so.  In that case, should we grant them immunity to fire and damaging effects with the light descriptor (such as searing light)?


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Probably so.  In that case, should we grant them immunity to fire and damaging effects with the light descriptor (such as searing light)?



Absolutely it would strange for an effect to both damage and heal at the same time. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

How's this?

Special Qualities: Breathless, fast healing 3, flight, immunity to fire and damaging light effects, low-light vision

Fast Healing (Ex): A moon roc heals only if it is within an area with greater than shadowy illumination or with a temperature greater than 50 degrees.   Additionally, any effect with the light descriptor that deals damage (such as searing light), or any effect that deals fire damage, also triggers the moon roc's fast healing for that round.

Immunity to Damaging Light Effects (Ex):  A moon roc is immune to any effect with the light descriptor that deals damage (such as searing light), and such an effect triggers its fast healing ability for that round.


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## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Special Qualities: Breathless, fast healing 3, flight, immunity to fire and damaging light effects, low-light vision
> 
> ...



I like, lets so what the others think.

Regards
Mortis


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## freyar (Oct 19, 2007)

Seems good to me also.


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## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

I agree that it looks good.
Is this the last creature for this module?


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Yep, this is it!


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

We've exhausted the requests for this thread.   We've also exhausted my resources for this thread.    

If anyone has any of the following and would like to post the stats, please do and we'll continue the conversions.  Otherwise, this thread is essentially on hold for awhile.  

C5 - Bane of Llywelyn
Viper Vines

DQ1 - The Shattered Statue
Awtawmatawyn

I2 - Tomb of the Lizard King
Vampiric Lizard Man

I4 - Oasis of the White Palm
Aeraldoth (vizier to Caliph of the Djinn)
Symbayan 
Thune Dervish

I5 – Lost Tomb of Martek
Cryptknights
Spectral Minions

I8 – Ravager of Time
Golem, Slime
Life-Bane Duplicates


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

Viper Vines

Frequency: Rare
No. Appearing: 1-10
Armor Class: 8
Move: 3"
Hit Dice: 4
% in Lair: 0%
Treasure Type: lncidental only
No. of Attacks: 1
Damage/Attack: 1-4
Special Attacks: Poison
Special Defenses: Immune to blunt
Magic Resistance: Standard
Intelligence: Low
Alignment: Neutral
Size: L (20' to 50' long)
Level/X.P. Value: III/110 + 4/hit point

Viper vines are a type of carnivorous, poisonous plant indigenous to tropical forests, and 90% indistinguishable from normal vines. They hang from trees, trailing their ends on the ground to snare unwary animals. They have two forms of attack, the first being constriction as they wrap around their victim much like a snake, doing 1-4 points of damage each melee round. The second is a paralyzing poison exuded from the skin onto the ensnared creature (save vs. poison applicable). Viper vines can control this poison, generally not using it until having constricted their victim for 1-4 melee rounds.

Description: Viper vines are thick (3 " diameter), ropy vines, brownish green in color.


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

AD&D Game Awtawmatawn Statistics:
FREQUENCY Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 40 (180 hit points)
% IN LAIR: 0%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2/3 rounds
DAMAGE: 5d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE 50% (see below)
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT Lawful Evil
SIZE: L (30' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 113
Attack/Defense Modes: B, C/F, G, H
LEVEL/X P VALUE: IX/33,300

From the golem, the awtawmatawn gains the following abilities: cast slow spell on any opponent within 1" of its front facing every other melee round; immunity to normal weapons-- +2 or greater weapons required to hit; immune to physically-damaging spells other than rock to mud (which slows the monster 50% for 2d6 melee rounds, while mud to rock repairs all damage suffered by the golem), and stone to flesh makes the golem vulnerable to normal attacks on the next round (Note: a single use of this spell will affect 1d6+2 of the monster's Hit Dice.)
Because of its size, the awtawmatawn moves more slowly than the characters and may attack foes less than half its size twice every three rounds. it may attack larger foes and buildings once per round.
From Rotbite the horned devil, the awtawmatawn gains the ability to exude fear in a 30' radius (normal radius of 5' enhanced by its
size-saving throw vs. wands applies); once per turn or melee round as applicable: charm person, suggestion, infravision, know alignment, animate dead, pyrotechnics, produce flame, ESP, detect magic, and illusion. Once per day, it can create a wall of fire of triple normal strength with regard to damage caused (3d8).
Rotbite's natural Magic Resistance is applied to all magical spells that can physically affect the golem's stone body or mentally affect his mind.
In his current form, the horned devil Rotbite cannot summon others of his kind.


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

VAMPIRIC LIZARD MAN
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 1
MOVE: 12”/18”
HIT DICE: 6+2
% IN LAIR: 25%
TREASURE TYPE: P, Y
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5-10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Energy drain as vampire
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better magic weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: As vampire
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic Evil
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Aside from its number of hit dice, the vampiric lizard man is in all respects a vampire. The origin of these horrid creatures was the result of the dying wish to Sakatha, the great Lizard King who accidentally wished himself into a vampiric existence.
Females of this types are like their male counterparts, but have only 4+3 hit dice, and because they are not as strong (Strength = 18), do only 2-5 points of damage per blow.
Sakatha, the vampiric Lizard King, is a special case. In addition to having all the characteristics of a vampire, Sakatha can strike with his special trident for 5-20 points of damage. On a “to hit” roll 5 or greater than the minimum needed, the trident will do double damage at a minimum of 15 points. This will happen only when the trident is wielded by a Lizard King. Sakatha has spell capabilities as a 9th level magic user.


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## Mortis (Oct 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I2 - Tomb of the Lizard King
> Vampiric Lizard Man



Surely we can just give the vampire template to a lizard man?

Regards
Mortis


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

Aeraldoth, Vizier to the Caliph of the Djinn
FREQUENCY: Unique out of six
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 24"/24"
HIT DICE: 88 hit points
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: H
NO. ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 2-24/2-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See Below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: 90
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
Attack/Defense Modes: A,B,D/H,I,J

There are six Viziers to the Caliph of the Djinn, all of whom naturally inhabit the Elemental Plane of Air. The Viziers try to maintain the harmonious balance of the universe, and do not intervene in mortal affairs unless evil forces threaten to seriously disrupt the balance. All viziers are djinn nobles.
These creatures may use the following spells at will as 25th level magic users: pass without trace, predict weather, call lightning, protection from fire, control temperature (unlimited radius), dispel magic, control winds, weather summoning, control weather, and finger of death. They may travel at will among the planes known to the Djinn.
A Djinni Vizier can grant three wishes per day but seldom does because of the possibility that they could be used to disrupt the
universal balance.


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

Symbayan
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 5-50+ (Never to exceed 200)
ARMOR CLASS: Variable (typically 4)
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: Variable (typically 4)
% IN LAIR: 60%
TREASURE TYPE: D
NO. ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon (typically 1-8)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Variable
ALIGNMENT: Variable
SIZE: M
PSlONlC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Symbayans are a group of semi-nomadic tribesmen who deal mainly in trade. They are generally more civilized, less honest, and more cunning than the Thunes. The Symbayans seldom wage war, except against the Thunes, whom they will fight on sight.
While they often go on trading missions, they prefer to remain at home, usually at an oasis fortress and trade center. They were once brother tribesmen with the Thunes many centuries ago but were converted to the True Faith (the worship of the one god, Anu) and now are as fervent in the destruction of idols as the Thunes are in the preservation of idols. Their favorite swear words are “The place is set!”
Symbayan traders are members of the Sandvoyagers’ Guild. They are famous for their sand sleds, their typical way of travel. The Symbayans are also famous for their Airlancers, a group of elite warriors mounted on Pegasi.
The Symbayans of the Oasis of the White Palm are but a small part of a greater culture that lies far to the south. Each tribe has its own ways and traditions. The Symbayans have been at the Oasis of the White Palm for about 50 years. Their marriage ceremony is still modeled after the ancient one since it names no specific deity and thus does not go against the True Faith. The original forefathers of the southern tribes were rumored to have come from the oasis area and the Symbayans have returned to claim it as their ancestral home. The Symbayans are from the southern parts of the desert and are attempting to extend their trade lanes northward toward unknown realms. They are scattering the Thunes before them as they progress from oasis to oasis across the desert.


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

Thune Dervish
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 5-50+ (Not to exceed 100)
ARMOR CLASS: Variable (typically 6)
MOVE: 12"
HIT DICE: Variable (typically 4)
% IN LAIR: 40%
TREASURE TYPE: J
NO. ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type (typically 1d8+2 with scimitar)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Bloodquest (See below)
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Variable
ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral
SIZE: M
PSlONlC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

The Thune Dervishes are nomadic people, roughened by the desert winds and sand. They are fanatical, somber, pessimistic and almost always bad-mannered. They are a hot-tempered, passionate people who do not care much for outsiders. They are scrupulously honest and fearless in a fight. They have few outside interests, except for gambling, wine, and sports.
Aliens wherever they go, they roam the desert on an eternal holy quest. Their mission in life is to protect the religious freedoms and holy shrines of all nations, regardless of the specific beliefs of the worshippers. If the people hold an idol or shrine as sacred, that's enough for the Thune Dervishes. The Thune Dervishes hate grave robbers and defilers of all kinds. If a Dervish sees someone steal or desecrate a holy item or shrine, the defiler is marked for Bloodquest. This holy rite, carried out under the trembling, vibrating scream of any Dervish at hand, means a fight to the death. If necessary, the entire Dervish clan will join the Bloodquest.
The Dervishes have tracking powers equal to those of rangers. If they find a shrine or tomb desecrated, 1-6 Dervishes will track down and destroy the defilers.
There are approximately 300 people in the Thune tribe in scattered nomadic camps. They have been driven northward from their ancient homelands into the desert by the Symbayans. They fight the Symbayans at every opportunity. Most Dervishes encountered will be from 15 to 60 years old.


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

Cryptknights
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NUMBER APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 9
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: continual fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi
ALIGNMENT: LE
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Cryptknights are only known to exist in the wizard Martek’s tomb. Cryptknights are creatures that were time-trapped (see the SPECIAL NOTE in the MOBIUS TOWER PROLOGUE on page 20) just as they died. Thus, they became trapped in their deaths. Because of their frightening deaths, 70% of all Cryptknights emanate continuous fear (as the fourth level magic users’ spell fear). Over the centuries, some cryptknights escaped from the Mobius tower to other parts of Martek’s tomb. Cryptknights look like skeletal forms of the people they were before they were time-trapped.


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

Spectral Minions
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NUMBER APPEARING: 1-40+
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 30" (Restricted; See below)
HIT DICE: 3 (Also see below)
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 0 or 1 (See below)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon (See below)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
INTELLIGENCE: Standard
ALIGNMENT: Variable
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Spectral minions are the spirits of humans or demihumans who died before they could fulfill powerful vows or quests that had been placed on them. Similar to ghosts, spectral minions do not fully exist on the Prime Material plane. Even in death, spectral minions are bound to the vows or quests placed upon them when they were alive. Every day, they must relive the events leading to their deaths, trying to fulfill their vows and quests. Outdoors, spectral minions must stay within 1,000 yards of where they died. Otherwise, they must stay in the corridor or room where they were at death. Spectral minions have a +1 on initiative rolls, due to their speed.
Spectral minions can only do damage if they died holding a weapon. Such a weapon becomes a part of them. Unless otherwise noted, only 50% of all spectral minions have weapons. Those that do have weapons have swords, unless otherwise noted. A remove curse will get rid of them permanently. If their vow or quest is fulfilled for them, they will disappear forever.
When very powerful people, such as high level paladins, become spectral minions, their hit points will be the same as before they died.
Spectral minions are barely visible because light passes through them. They look like the people they were before they died, but they have no color and are mostly transparent.


----------



## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

Golem, Slime
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOUR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 1O
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE: 2d4/2d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralysis
SPECIAL DEFENCES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: N
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: 1950 + 14/hp

These flaccid, squat, man-sized creatures are created from crystal ooze (MMII27), and combine some of the abilities of the ooze with those of a golem. A blow from one of these creatures paralyses for 2d10 turns (save vs. Paralysis to negate) in addition to inflicting normal damage. Magical weapons are required to hit slime golems, which are immune to acid, cold, heat and fire, and to sleep, charm and hold spells.
A slime golem can move equally effectively on land and through water, and its soft semi-transparent flesh allows it to squeeze through narrow gaps with ease.


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## Echohawk (Oct 22, 2007)

The life-bane duplicates don't have a stat block, but instead have about three-quarters of a page of text explaining how to create duplicates from the original. I'm guessing this would become a template. Should I post all of that text?


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Surely we can just give the vampire template to a lizard man?




I have to agree with this sentiment.  No need for a real conversion here, since the text says they are vampires in all respects.


----------



## freyar (Oct 22, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> The life-bane duplicates don't have a stat block, but instead have about three-quarters of a page of text explaining how to create duplicates from the original. I'm guessing this would become a template. Should I post all of that text?




If it's not too much trouble, sounds fun!  Thanks for inputting all these, btw.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2007)

Wow, Echohawk, thanks!    

It looks like several these don't really need converting.

As mentioned, the vampiric lizard man is really just that.  Not a unique creature like the vampiric illithid.

The Symbayan and Thune dervishes appear to simply be humans.

It was brought to my attention that we've got a version of the viper vines in the CC:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=447

That one appears to be from MC11, Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium Appendix II.  Anyone know if these are the same?

It looks like the Awtawmatawn might be a good one to start with.   It sounds like its a horned devil trapped in a stone golem body.  Is this a correct assessment?


----------



## Echohawk (Oct 23, 2007)

*Life-Bane Duplicates*

A duplicate created by Nuala's power of life-bane (see PSVII) is a magical entity which can parasitically tap the vitality of a single victim (no saving throw). This tapping cannot be halted until the duplicate is destroyed, or the victim dies from the strain, giving the duplicate the powers of the victim.

In appearance, voice and so on, a duplicate is indistinguishable from the original, and even has copies of the victim's clothing and equipment. Although a duplicate would be capable of fooling even the closest associates of the victim under normal circumstances, a truesight spell or similar magic would reveal it as an impostor, and a detect magic spell will reveal a magical aura.

*Powers of Duplicates*

Duplicates exist only as long as their individual victims live and they can continue to sap energy from them. During this time, duplicates can utilise all of the powers and abilities available to their individual victims... and more!

*Duplicated Powers*

With the exception of additional powers (see below), all of the attributes of a duplicate (including ability scores and bonuses, hit points, combat abilities, special abilities and so on) are identical to those of its victim before he or she was affected by Nuala's magic.

When the link is first established with a spell-using victim, the duplicate gains "copies" of the spells which the victim has memorised at the time and can cast them in the same manner. Although a duplicate's spells are used up in the normal way when it casts them, it cannot relearn spells of its own accord. Instead, the spells it has available are determined by which ones the victim memorises. Each time that its victim relearns spells or memorises new ones, the duplicate's list of available spells becomes the same as the victim's.

Although the duplicate has the same list of spells as its victim, the casting of a given spell by the duplicate does not affect the character's ability to use it. Similarly, if the character casts a spell this does not deprive the duplicate of it.

*Duplicated Equipment*

In addition to taking on the physical form of its victim, a duplicate also acquires temporary "copies" of all his or her personal equipment. This includes clothing, armour, weapons, magical items, horses or other animals, but not, of course, any human or demi-human henchmen or hirelings.

This equipment is identical in appearance to the originals, and can be used by the duplicate in the same way. It is not real in the ordinary sense and exists only because of the duplicate's life-draining. Only the duplicate concerned may use it, and it vanishes if the duplicate is destroyed. Acquisition or loss of equipment by the victim or duplicate do not affect the equipment possessed by the other -- nor do damage or other changes (including using up the charges of magical items).

*Additional Powers*

In addition to simply copying characters' original abilities, the accelerated rate at which duplicates use their victims' energies means that, in some respects, they are more powerful than the victims were originally. The extra abilities of duplicates are listed below:


Regeneration: Duplicates regenerate lost hit points at a rate of 2 per round after injury, so long as they remain above zero hit points.
Movement: Duplicates can move at a rate 3" greater than the victim.
Reaction Speed: Duplicates have a bonus of 1 on all initiative rolls.
Melee Attacks: In melee, a duplicate has 1 attack per round more than its victim had.
Magical Immunity: Duplicates are immune to mind-affecting magic, such as sleep, char, and hold spells.

*Killing Duplicates*

When a duplicate is "killed" (reduced to 0 hit points or below), it and all of its duplicated equipment vanish in a brilliant flash of light, leaving behind not a single trace.


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## Echohawk (Oct 23, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> It was brought to my attention that we've got a version of the viper vines in the CC:
> http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/cc/converted/view_c.php?CreatureID=447
> 
> That one appears to be from MC11, Forgotten Realms Monstrous Compendium Appendix II.  Anyone know if these are the same?



I think so, the Viper Vines first appeared in Polyhedron #19 (1984), were reprinted in Bane of Llewellyn (C5) (1985) and updated to 2nd Edition in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11) (1992). I'm going from memory here though, since most all of my D&D collection is currently packed in boxes in preparation for a cross-country move next week.  :\ 



> It looks like the Awtawmatawn might be a good one to start with.   It sounds like its a horned devil trapped in a stone golem body.  Is this a correct assessment?



Yes. Here's some more background from DQ1:


> The specific aspects of magic are taught by specialized colleges. Two of these Colleges no longer exist. They were destroyed by the Statue of Awtawmatawn, a magical creation of Valmous the Shaper, an Adept of the College of Shaping Magics.
> Valmous was completing the first of his awtawmatawns, gargantuan yet gentle stone golems, who, in the space of a few years, could advance the king's ambitious building projects by generations. During the final stage of the statue's creation, the spell backfired and a minor devil appeared, taking over the statue. Unprepared, the Shapers could not defend themselves adequately and most were slain. The gravely injured Valmous was driven away.
> Sensing one more magical college nearby, the awtawmatawn thundered over the mountains into the College of Rune Magics. The Rune Adepts were waiting, allied with Valmous. Valmous suspected the statue's weakness and guided his brothers in magic to destroy it.
> Even so, few survived the fierce battle and yet another College of Magic lay in ruins, its practitioners dead or scattered.
> ...


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2007)

Echohawk said:
			
		

> I think so, the Viper Vines first appeared in Polyhedron #19 (1984), were reprinted in Bane of Llewellyn (C5) (1985) and updated to 2nd Edition in Monstrous Compendium Forgotten Realms Appendix (MC11) (1992). I'm going from memory here though, since most all of my D&D collection is currently packed in boxes in preparation for a cross-country move next week.  :\




Thanks, and good luck with the move!


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2007)

So to get started with the awtawmatawn, I've reprinted both of Echohawk's posts here.

AD&D Game Awtawmatawn Statistics:
FREQUENCY Unique
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15"
HIT DICE: 40 (180 hit points)
% IN LAIR: 0%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2/3 rounds
DAMAGE: 5d8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE 50% (see below)
INTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT Lawful Evil
SIZE: L (30' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: 113
Attack/Defense Modes: B, C/F, G, H
LEVEL/X P VALUE: IX/33,300

From the golem, the awtawmatawn gains the following abilities: cast slow spell on any opponent within 1" of its front facing every other melee round; immunity to normal weapons-- +2 or greater weapons required to hit; immune to physically-damaging spells other than rock to mud (which slows the monster 50% for 2d6 melee rounds, while mud to rock repairs all damage suffered by the golem), and stone to flesh makes the golem vulnerable to normal attacks on the next round (Note: a single use of this spell will affect 1d6+2 of the monster's Hit Dice.)

Because of its size, the awtawmatawn moves more slowly than the characters and may attack foes less than half its size twice every three rounds. it may attack larger foes and buildings once per round.

From Rotbite the horned devil, the awtawmatawn gains the ability to exude fear in a 30' radius (normal radius of 5' enhanced by its size-saving throw vs. wands applies); once per turn or melee round as applicable: charm person, suggestion, infravision, know alignment, animate dead, pyrotechnics, produce flame, ESP, detect magic, and illusion. Once per day, it can create a wall of fire of triple normal strength with regard to damage caused (3d8).
Rotbite's natural Magic Resistance is applied to all magical spells that can physically affect the golem's stone body or mentally affect his mind.  In his current form, the horned devil Rotbite cannot summon others of his kind.



The specific aspects of magic are taught by specialized colleges. Two of these Colleges no longer exist. They were destroyed by the Statue of Awtawmatawn, a magical creation of Valmous the Shaper, an Adept of the College of Shaping Magics.

Valmous was completing the first of his awtawmatawns, gargantuan yet gentle stone golems, who, in the space of a few years, could advance the king's ambitious building projects by generations. During the final stage of the statue's creation, the spell backfired and a minor devil appeared, taking over the statue. Unprepared, the Shapers could not defend themselves adequately and most were slain. The gravely injured Valmous was driven away.

Sensing one more magical college nearby, the awtawmatawn thundered over the mountains into the College of Rune Magics. The Rune Adepts were waiting, allied with Valmous. Valmous suspected the statue's weakness and guided his brothers in magic to destroy it. 
Even so, few survived the fierce battle and yet another College of Magic lay in ruins, its practitioners dead or scattered.

With the aid of several young Rune Magic Adepts, Valmous hid the awtawmatawn’s fragments. He could still detect the aura of the devil amongst the pieces. Were the statue to be reassembled, it would live again. Using their own magics and the Shaper's devices, the Rune Adepts placed the dying Valmous into a healing stasis trance, to awaken when the need arose. All then faded into history.

Countless decades later, an excited Alchemist held his breath as his magical potions welded the fragments of a colossal stone arm and its magical aura grew. The legends he had discovered were true. The ancients had indeed created a stone golem of mythic proportions, and he, Amelior Amanitas, would be the one to bring this wonder of the ages back into being, to serve mankind as the legends described. He began excitedly scribbling notes again. He would need some brave heroic types to recover the lost fragments from the places the superstitious locals had hidden them in. If the rest of the pieces were even half as large as those he now had, he would need wagons... big wagons.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

For starters, lets advance a stone golem to 40 HD, giving us...

Stone Golem
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 40d10+40 (107 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 27 (–2 size, –2 Dex, +21 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+52
Attack: Slam +41 melee (4d8+13)
Full Attack: 2 slams +41 melee (4d8+13)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Slow
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +13
Abilities: Str 37, Dex 7, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4)
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 41–42 (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -

Combat

Slow (Su): A stone golem can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 7 rounds, requiring a DC 30 Will save to negate. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A stone golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A transmute rock to mud spell slows a stone golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all of its lost hit points.

A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.

...now lets note a few subtle differences in the statblock...

Move 15 translates to 40 ft.

Damage:  5d8.   We could simply bump up the damage, or, thanks to its Intelligence granting it feats, take Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat.

Int: High translates to an Intelligence score of 13-14.  A horned devil's mental ability scores are Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 22, so this fits nicely.   Shall we just use those mental stats?

Other things we might borrow from the cornugon...

Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good and silver, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, regeneration 5, see in darkness, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft.
Skills (as inspiration for which skills it should take): Bluff +24, Climb +28, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +6 (+8 acting), Hide +21, Intimidate +26, Listen +22, Move Silently +23, Search +20, Sense Motive +22, Spot +22, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks)
Feats (as inspiration for which feats it shoudl take): Cleave, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain)

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—dispel chaos (DC 21), dispel good (DC 21), magic circle against good, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); persistent image (DC 21) 3/day—fireball (DC 19), lightning bolt (DC 19). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Fear Aura (Su): A horned devil can radiate a 5-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 23 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 15th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same horned devil’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Stun (Su): Whenever a horned devil hits with a spiked chain attack, the opponent must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Strength-based. This ability is a function of the horned devil, not of the spiked chain.

Infernal Wound (Su): The damage a horned devil deals with its tail attack causes a persistent wound. An injured creature loses 2 additional hit points each round. The wound does not heal naturally and resists healing spells. The continuing hit point loss can be stopped by a DC 24 Heal check, a cure spell, or a heal spell. However, a character attempting to cast a cure spell or a heal spell on a creature damaged by a horned devil’s tail must succeed on a DC 24 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character. A successful Heal check automatically stops the continuing hit point loss as well as restoring hit points. The check DC is Constitution-based.

Regeneration (Ex): A horned devil takes normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.

See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2007)

Thoughts?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2007)

The hp on the stone golem seem a little low compared to the awtawmawtawn.  Also, is huge quite big enough, or should we see what happens if we push things to gargantuan?


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2007)

Going to Gargantuan...

Stone Golem
Gargantuan Construct
Hit Dice: 40d10+60 (127 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: 29 (–4 size, –2 Dex, +25 natural), touch 4, flat-footed 29
Base Attack/Grapple: +30/+60
Attack: Slam +43 melee (4d8+17)
Full Attack: 2 slams +43 melee (4d8+17)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./20 ft.
Special Attacks: Slow
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, darkvision 60 ft., immunity to magic, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +11, Will +13
Abilities: Str 45, Dex 7, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2–4)
Challenge Rating: 19
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 41–42 (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: -

Combat

Slow (Su): A stone golem can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 7 rounds, requiring a DC 30 Will save to negate. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A stone golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A transmute rock to mud spell slows a stone golem (as the slow spell) for 2d6 rounds, with no saving throw, while transmute mud to rock heals all of its lost hit points.

A stone to flesh spell does not actually change the golem’s structure but negates its damage reduction and immunity to magic for 1 full round.

...now lets note a few subtle differences in the statblock...

Move 15 translates to 40 ft.

Damage: 5d8. We could simply bump up the damage, or, thanks to its Intelligence granting it feats, take Improved Natural Attack as a bonus feat.

Int: High translates to an Intelligence score of 13-14. A horned devil's mental ability scores are Int 14, Wis 18, Cha 22, so this fits nicely. Shall we just use those mental stats?

Other things we might borrow from the cornugon...

Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/good and silver, immunity to fire and poison, resistance to acid 10 and cold 10, regeneration 5, see in darkness, spell resistance 28, telepathy 100 ft.
Skills (as inspiration for which skills it should take): Bluff +24, Climb +28, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +6 (+8 acting), Hide +21, Intimidate +26, Listen +22, Move Silently +23, Search +20, Sense Motive +22, Spot +22, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks)
Feats (as inspiration for which feats it shoudl take): Cleave, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain)

Spell-Like Abilities: At will—dispel chaos (DC 21), dispel good (DC 21), magic circle against good, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); persistent image (DC 21) 3/day—fireball (DC 19), lightning bolt (DC 19). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Fear Aura (Su): A horned devil can radiate a 5-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC 23 Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level 15th). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same horned devil’s aura for 24 hours. Other devils are immune to the aura. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Stun (Su): Whenever a horned devil hits with a spiked chain attack, the opponent must succeed on a DC 27 Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4 rounds. The save DC is Strength-based. This ability is a function of the horned devil, not of the spiked chain.

Infernal Wound (Su): The damage a horned devil deals with its tail attack causes a persistent wound. An injured creature loses 2 additional hit points each round. The wound does not heal naturally and resists healing spells. The continuing hit point loss can be stopped by a DC 24 Heal check, a cure spell, or a heal spell. However, a character attempting to cast a cure spell or a heal spell on a creature damaged by a horned devil’s tail must succeed on a DC 24 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character. A successful Heal check automatically stops the continuing hit point loss as well as restoring hit points. The check DC is Constitution-based.

Regeneration (Ex): A horned devil takes normal damage from good-aligned silvered weapons, and from spells or effects with the good descriptor.

See in Darkness (Su): All baatezu can see perfectly in darkness of any kind, even that created by a deeper darkness spell.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2007)

If we give it Epic Toughness a couple times (using the latest +30 hp version), the hp will go to 187.


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

I created a Homebrews  entry incorporating some of the changes I suggested.


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## freyar (Nov 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I created a Homebrews  entry incorporating some of the changes I suggested.




Looks like a good start.  I'd add "and magic" or even "and epic" to the DR.  Should we work on the SLAs next?


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## Shade (Nov 1, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks like a good start.  I'd add "and magic" or even "and epic" to the DR.  Should we work on the SLAs next?




How about "and good" to borrow an element from the cornugon spirit's DR?



> From Rotbite the horned devil, the awtawmatawn gains the ability to exude fear in a 30' radius (normal radius of 5' enhanced by its size-saving throw vs. wands applies); once per turn or melee round as applicable: charm person, suggestion, infravision, know alignment, animate dead, pyrotechnics, produce flame, ESP, detect magic, and illusion. Once per day, it can create a wall of fire of triple normal strength with regard to damage caused (3d8).




Cornugon SLAs:
Spell-Like Abilities: At will—dispel chaos (DC 21), dispel good (DC 21), magic circle against good, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); persistent image (DC 21) 3/day—fireball (DC 19), lightning bolt (DC 19). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about "and good" to borrow an element from the cornugon spirit's DR?



Sounds all right. 

As for these:


> From Rotbite the horned devil, the awtawmatawn gains the ability to exude fear in a 30' radius (normal radius of 5' enhanced by its size-saving throw vs. wands applies); once per turn or melee round as applicable: charm person, suggestion, infravision, know alignment, animate dead, pyrotechnics, produce flame, ESP, detect magic, and illusion. Once per day, it can create a wall of fire of triple normal strength with regard to damage caused (3d8).






> Cornugon SLAs:
> Spell-Like Abilities: At will—dispel chaos (DC 21), dispel good (DC 21), magic circle against good, greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only); persistent image (DC 21) 3/day—fireball (DC 19), lightning bolt (DC 19). Caster level 15th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.




This is tricky.  Either horned devils have changed a fair bit or else Rotbite was one abnormal dude.  Should we go with the original or the cornugon?


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## Shade (Nov 6, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> This is tricky.  Either horned devils have changed a fair bit or else Rotbite was one abnormal dude.  Should we go with the original or the cornugon?




I'll check the 2e cornugon's list and see what it had before making a decision.


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

From 2e:

In addition to the magical abilities inherent to all baatezu, cornugons can use the spell-like powers detect magic, ESP, lightning bolt (3/day), produce flame, pyrotechnics, and wall of fire (1/day).

All baatezu had advanced illusion, animate dead, charm person, infravision, know alignment (always active), suggestion, and teleport without error.


So other than the better-than-normal wall of fire, it had typical cornugon powers.


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2007)

Ok, then, why don't we give the awtawmawtawn all the 3e cornugon's SLAs and maybe maximize the fireball or even wall of fire as an additional?


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## Shade (Nov 7, 2007)

Sounds good.



> Sensing one more magical college nearby, the awtawmatawn thundered over the mountains into the College of Rune Magics. The Rune Adepts were waiting, allied with Valmous. Valmous suspected the statue's weakness and guided his brothers in magic to destroy it.
> Even so, few survived the fierce battle and yet another College of Magic lay in ruins, its practitioners dead or scattered.
> 
> With the aid of several young Rune Magic Adepts, Valmous hid the awtawmatawn’s fragments. He could still detect the aura of the devil amongst the pieces. Were the statue to be reassembled, it would live again. Using their own magics and the Shaper's devices, the Rune Adepts placed the dying Valmous into a healing stasis trance, to awaken when the need arose. All then faded into history.




Some sort of rejuvenation power?   The parts detect as overwhelming evil with a detect evil spell?


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## freyar (Nov 7, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Some sort of rejuvenation power?   The parts detect as overwhelming evil with a detect evil spell?




For detect evil: yes.

For rejuvenation, maybe give it either regeneration or fast healing and then some sort of tarrasque-like ability.  So it fragments when reduced to 0 hp but isn't completely destroyed unless (fill in the blanks).  I'll try to write something up tonight if I can.  Kind of swamped atm.


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 8, 2007)

I just saw the conversion of the moon roc in the catalog.  Shouldn't it be a magical beast? Animals don't have fast healing or energy immunity.


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> I just saw the conversion of the moon roc in the catalog.  Shouldn't it be a magical beast? Animals don't have fast healing or energy immunity.




I'd be inclined to agree, though what does it for me is the supernatural flight.  Animals can have (Ex) abilities but not magic.


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> I just saw the conversion of the moon roc in the catalog.  Shouldn't it be a magical beast? Animals don't have fast healing or energy immunity.




Good point.  I'll make the change to magical beast when I have an opportunity.


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## freyar (Nov 8, 2007)

Back to the awtawmawtawn:

The tarrasque has


			
				srd said:
			
		

> Regeneration (Ex): No form of attack deals lethal damage to the tarrasque. The tarrasque regenerates even if it fails a saving throw against a disintegrate spell or a death effect. If the tarrasque fails its save against a spell or effect that would kill it instantly (such as those mentioned above), the spell or effect instead deals nonlethal damage equal to the creature’s full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hp). The tarrasque is immune to effects that produce incurable or bleeding wounds, such as mummy rot, a sword with the wounding special ability, or a clay golem’s cursed wound ability. The tarrasque can be slain only by raising its nonlethal damage total to its full normal hit points +10 (or 868 hit points) and using a wish or miracle spell to keep it dead.
> 
> If the tarrasque loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 1d6 minutes (the detached piece dies and decays normally). The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.




but I'm starting to think along the lines of the ghost



			
				srd said:
			
		

> Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a ghost through simple combat: The “destroyed” spirit will often restore itself in 2d4 days. Even the most powerful spells are usually only temporary solutions. A ghost that would otherwise be destroyed returns to its old haunts with a successful level check (1d20 + ghost’s HD) against DC 16. As a rule, the only way to get rid of a ghost for sure is to determine the reason for its existence and set right whatever prevents it from resting in peace. The exact means varies with each spirit and may require a good deal of research.




So let's try something like

*Rejuvenation (Su):* It is very difficult to destroy the awtawmawtawn due to its possession by Rotbite.  If it is reduced to 0 hp, the awtawmawtawn breaks into many (Large) pieces but is not destroyed completely.  Due to their animating spirit, these pieces detect as overwhelming evil to a _detect evil_ spell.  If the pieces are ever reassembled, the awtawmawtawn returns to life with full hit points.  The only way to destroy the awtawmawtawn permanently is to reduce it to 0 hp and then use a _wish_ or _miracle_ spell to destroy the animating presence of Rotbite.

Waddaya think?


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## Shade (Nov 8, 2007)

I like it!


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## dhaga (Nov 8, 2007)

Nicely written, freyar.


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## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good point.  I'll make the change to magical beast when I have an opportunity.



The appropriate items are

Gargantuan Magical Beast 
Hit Dice: 18d10+126 (225 hp)
Base Attack/Grapple: +18/+42
Attack: Talon +26 melee (2d6+12) 
Full Attack: 2 talons +26 melee (2d6+12) and bite +24 melee (2d8+6)
Special Qualities: Breathless, darkvision 60 ft., fast healing 3, flight, immunity to fire and damaging light effects, low-light vision

Thankfully they have the same skill points and saves.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Moon roc has been fixed.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Getting back to Awtawmatawn...

Skills: 172
Feats: Epic Toughness (x2), Improved Natural Attack (slam), 11 more (5 of which can be epic)

Cornugon Skills: Bluff +24, Climb +28, Concentration +24, Diplomacy +10, Disguise +6 (+8 acting), Hide +21, Intimidate +26, Listen +22, Move Silently +23, Search +20, Sense Motive +22, Spot +22, Survival +4 (+6 following tracks)
Cornugon Feats: Cleave, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (spiked chain)

So at the very least, probably Cleave, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack?

Awtawmatawn has 44 less skill ranks than a cornugon.  We could drop the 18 ranks in Hide, as it really doesn't need them.  That leaves 26 more to shave off.  We could take 7 ranks off Climb to account for the Str bonus differential, leaving 19 ranks to remove.  I'd suggest dropping the 16 ranks in Move Silently, and shave 1 rank each off Listen, Search, and Spot.

Thoughts?


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## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Getting back to Awtawmatawn...
> 
> Feats: Epic Toughness (x2), Improved Natural Attack (slam), 11 more (5 of which can be epic)
> 
> So at the very least, probably Cleave, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Power Attack?



Some ideas

Dire Charge [epic], Great Cleave, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Initiative, Overwhelming Critical (slam), Superior Initiative [epic], Weapon Focus (slam)



> Awtawmatawn has 44 less skill ranks than a cornugon.  We could drop the 18 ranks in Hide, as it really doesn't need them.  That leaves 26 more to shave off.  We could take 7 ranks off Climb to account for the Str bonus differential, leaving 19 ranks to remove.  I'd suggest dropping the 16 ranks in Move Silently, and shave 1 rank each off Listen, Search, and Spot.
> 
> Thoughts?



I like

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

I like those.

Updated Homebrews.

I think all that remains is weight and CR.


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## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I like those.



There's still four to go, I only mentioned 7 (of the 11)

<edit>
doh - which added to the four you suggested comes to 11.   

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Comparing to other golems...

It's quite a bit more powerful than the CR 21 mithral golem.

It's not quite as powerful as the CR 25 adamantine golem.

I'd peg it at CR 23.

For weight, the also-30-foot-tall adamantine golem An weighs around 32,000 pounds.  So maybe 30,000 lbs.? I'd imagine stone weighs less than adamantine.


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## Mortis (Nov 9, 2007)

Both suggestions look good

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

Updated.   Anything left?


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2007)

I think this looks good.


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## Mortis (Nov 12, 2007)

Looks done to me, too.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Great!   Let's do this one next...

Aeraldoth, Vizier to the Caliph of the Djinn
FREQUENCY: Unique out of six
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 24"/24"
HIT DICE: 88 hit points
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: H
NO. ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: 2-24/2-24
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See Below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
INTELLIGENCE: Supra-genius
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: 90
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
Attack/Defense Modes: A,B,D/H,I,J

There are six Viziers to the Caliph of the Djinn, all of whom naturally inhabit the Elemental Plane of Air. The Viziers try to maintain the harmonious balance of the universe, and do not intervene in mortal affairs unless evil forces threaten to seriously disrupt the balance. All viziers are djinn nobles.
These creatures may use the following spells at will as 25th level magic users: pass without trace, predict weather, call lightning, protection from fire, control temperature (unlimited radius), dispel magic, control winds, weather summoning, control weather, and finger of death. They may travel at will among the planes known to the Djinn.
A Djinni Vizier can grant three wishes per day but seldom does because of the possibility that they could be used to disrupt the
universal balance.

Check here and here to see what we did with his efeeti counterpart.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Since the original had 88 hp (vs the pasha of the efreet's 101), that equates to about 3 HD.

So, let's try out 27 HD (vs. the pasha's 30 HD).

Advancing a djinn (but not increasing its size) to 26 HD gives us...

Large Outsider (Air, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 27d8+54 (175 hp)
Initiative: +8
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 16 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +3 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +27/+35
Attack: Slam +30 melee (1d8+4)
Full Attack: 2 slams +30 melee (1d8+4)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Air mastery, spell-like abilities, whirlwind
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to acid, plane shift, telepathy 100 ft.
Saves: Fort +17, Ref +19, Will +17
Abilities: Str 18, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15
Skills: Appraise +12, Concentration +12, Craft (any one) +12, Diplomacy +4, Escape Artist +14, Knowledge (any one) +12, Listen +12, Move Silently +14, Sense Motive +12, Spellcraft +12, Spot +12, Use Rope +4 (+6 with bindings) (plus 200 more)
Feats: Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B) (10 total, 3 can be epic)
Environment: Elemental Plane of Air
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 21-22
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Always chaotic good
Advancement: -
Level Adjustment: -

Speed translates to 60 ft (12 squares), fly 60 ft (perfect).

We gave the Pasha the following ability scores:  
Str 36, Dex 29, Con 26, Int 22, Wis 25, Cha 25

Compared to a standard efreet, that is:
Str +13, Dex +12, Con +12, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +10

Stadard Efreet: Str 23, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 15
Standard Djinn:  Str 18, Dex 19, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 15

So maybe reverse the Str and Dex bonuses like so...
Str +12, Dex +13, Con +12, Int +10, Wis +10, Cha +10

Yielding...
Str 30, Dex 32, Con 26, Int 24, Wis 25, Cha 25

How does that look?


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2007)

Taking a minute to parse: looks reasonable.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.



> These creatures may use the following spells at will as 25th level magic users: pass without trace, predict weather, call lightning, protection from fire, control temperature (unlimited radius), dispel magic, control winds, weather summoning, control weather, and finger of death.




Typical djinn spell-like abilities: At will—invisibility (self only); 1/day—create food and water, create wine (as create water, but wine instead), major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent), persistent image (DC 17), wind walk. Once per day, a djinni can assume gaseous form (as the spell) for up to 1 hour. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2007)

Seems like these should have all the djinn SLAs and maybe some or all of the other ones also.  Or is that overkill? I guess we should ask what the 1e djinn SLAs were and what you did with the efreet versions.


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## Steve Jung (Nov 13, 2007)

1ed djiinni SLAs:
1/day:_ create nutritious food_ for 2-12 persons,_ create water or wine_ for 2-12 persons,_ create soft goods or wooden items_ (up to about 16 cubic feet of the former, 9 cubic feet of the latter) with permanence,_ create metal items_ of short life span (the harder the metal the shorter the time it lasts,_ i.e._ gold has about a 24 hour existence, djinni steel lasts only 1 hour) of up to about 1,000 gold pieces weight,_ create an illusion_ with both visual and audial components which will last without concentration until magically dispelled or touched,_ become invisible, assume gaseous form, wind walk,_ or_ form a whirlwind._


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2007)

Thanks, Steve!

For the Pasha of the Efreet, we combined the lists.

Typical djinn spell-like abilities: At will—invisibility (self only); 1/day—create food and water, create wine (as create water, but wine instead), major creation (created vegetable matter is permanent), persistent image (DC 17), wind walk. Once per day, a djinni can assume gaseous form (as the spell) for up to 1 hour. Caster level 25th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Call lightning, dispel magic, control winds, control weather, finger of death, and pass without trace are all still present in 3e.

protection from fire = resist energy/protection from energy (fire only?)

Predict weather, control temperature (unlimited radius), and weather summoning all need replacements, unique abilities, or should be dropped.


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## dhaga (Nov 13, 2007)

Control Weather can cover weather summoning.

For predict weather, perhaps just some flavor text:
Aeraldoth can predict the weather with astonishing precision, and has been known to offer accurate predictions up to a week in advance.

We can give him Knowledge (Weather) (or Knowledge (Nature)) as a skill, to promote the text.

We could generate an ability for control temperature, which could be fun.

Control Temperature (Su): Aeraldoth can control the temperature of the air around him, up to a (100' ?) radius.  As a swift action, he can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees.  This change affects the entire (100 ' ?) area.


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## Steve Jung (Nov 14, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> For predict weather, perhaps just some flavor text:
> Aeraldoth can predict the weather with astonishing precision, and has been known to offer accurate predictions up to a week in advance.
> 
> We can give him Knowledge (Weather) (or Knowledge (Nature)) as a skill, to promote the text..



You're welcome, Shade. Predicting weather a week in advance is a DC 45 Survival check. (base DC for 1 day is 15, +5 for each additional day)


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Great.   We'll go with max ranks in Survival to account for that.

Dhaga, good start on the control temperature ability.   We might want to note that the effects are cumulative.


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great.   We'll go with max ranks in Survival to account for that.
> 
> Dhaga, good start on the control temperature ability.   We might want to note that the effects are cumulative.




Control Temperature (Su): Aeraldoth can control the temperature of the air around him, in a radius of 100 feet.  As a swift action, he can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees. This change affects the entire radius, and additional uses of the ability are cumulative with the previous uses.

Still not sure that sounds quite right, but I think it's on the right track.


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Control Temperature (Su): Aeraldoth can control the temperature of the air around him, in a radius of 100 feet.  As a swift action, he can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees. This change affects the entire radius, and additional uses of the ability are cumulative with the previous uses.
> 
> Still not sure that sounds quite right, but I think it's on the right track.




Streamlining a tad...

Control Temperature (Su): As a swift action, Aeraldoth can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 100-foot-radius centered on him. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, so he could, for example, lower the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds.


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## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Streamlining a tad...
> 
> Control Temperature (Su): As a swift action, Aeraldoth can raise or lower the temperature by 10 degrees in a 100-foot-radius centered on him. Subsequent uses of this ability stack, so he could, for example, lower the temperature by a total of 20 degrees after two rounds.




Yeah, that's it!


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## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

Shall we give this guy a nice weapon like we did for the Pasha of the Efreet?  We gave him a +3 flaming burst unholy falchion.

Maybe a scimitar?


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## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

Definitely a scimitar.  Something electric, I would say.


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## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

+3 keen shocking burst?


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## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> +3 keen shocking burst?



Sounds glorious.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

Time to determine feats and skills.

Skills: 450 (Max out Survival for weather prediction)

Standard djinn skills:  Appraise +12, Concentration +12, Craft (any one) +12, Diplomacy +4, Escape Artist +14, Knowledge (any one) +12, Listen +12, Move Silently +14, Sense Motive +12, Spellcraft +12, Spot +12, Use Rope +4 (+6 with bindings)

Feats (includes standard djinn feats): Combat Casting, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Initiative (B), Improved Natural Attack (slam), (10 total, 3 can be epic)

Here's what we gave Pasha of the Efreet:

Skills: Bluff +40, Craft (any one) +39, Concentration +41, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Intimidate +42, Jump +25, Knowledge (any 3) +39, Knowledge (the planes) +42, Listen +40, Move Silently +42, Sense Motive +40, Spellcraft +39 (+41 scrolls), Spot +40, Survival +7 (+9 on other planes), Use Magic Device +40 (+42 scrolls) 

Feats: Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Empower Spell-Like Ability (fireball), Empower Spell-Like Ability (flame strike), Improved Initiative b, Improved Natural Attack (slam), Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (fireball), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (scorching ray), Skill Focus (Knowledge [the planes]), Spring Attack


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

For feats, how about:

Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Empower Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Improved Initiative (b), Improved Natural Attack (slam), Improved Whirlwind Attack (epic), Mobility, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (control winds), Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack

For skills, how about:

Appraise +30, Concentration +30, Craft (any one) +30, Diplomacy +30, Escape Artist +30, Knowledge (nobility and royalty) +30, Knowledge (the planes) +30, Listen +30, Move Silently +30, Sense Motive +30, Spellcraft +30, Spot +30, Survival +30, Tumble +30, Use Magic Device +30


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2007)

Updated Homebrews using the feats and skills I suggested above.

Does it look good?   Finished?


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## Mortis (Nov 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Does it look good?   Finished?



Looks good... and finished. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

*Golem, Slime*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 2-8
ARMOUR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 9"
HIT DICE: 1O
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE: 2d4/2d4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Paralysis
SPECIAL DEFENCES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: N
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defence Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: 1950 + 14/hp

These flaccid, squat, man-sized creatures are created from crystal ooze (MMII27), and combine some of the abilities of the ooze with those of a golem. A blow from one of these creatures paralyses for 2d10 turns (save vs. Paralysis to negate) in addition to inflicting normal damage. Magical weapons are required to hit slime golems, which are immune to acid, cold, heat and fire, and to sleep, charm and hold spells.

A slime golem can move equally effectively on land and through water, and its soft semi-transparent flesh allows it to squeeze through narrow gaps with ease.

From I8: Ravager of Time


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Medium construct with amorphous qualities?


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## Shroomy (Dec 5, 2007)

I would go with a Medium construct with the aquatic sub-type; I'd also crib the malleability power from the FF Vine Horror to explain its amorphous traits.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Sounds good.

Here are the ability scores for the similarly-sized, somewhat gooey maggot golem:

Str 12, Dex 14, Con -, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 10

The slime golem is Int Low (5-7), though.

Do the other stats work?


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2007)

I'd say those stats sound reasonable.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Here's what the crystal ooze has in the Tome of Horrors revised:

Paralysis (Ex): A crystal ooze secretes a paralytic slime. A target hit by a crystal ooze’s slam or constrict attack must succeed on a DC 17 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 3d6 rounds. The crystal ooze can automatically constrict a paralyzed opponent. The save DC is
Constitution-based.

Another ability it possesses might be worth using here...

Transparent (Ex): When submerged, a crystal ooze is difficult to see. It takes a successful DC 20 Spot check to notice one. Creatures who fail to notice a crystal ooze and walk (or swim) into it are automatically hit with a melee attack for slam damage and are subjected to the ooze’s paralysis.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2007)

We can probably just lift those completely, though 2d10 turns is a lot longer than 3d6 rounds.  Was there a similar downgrading of the crystal ooze's paralysis in ToH?


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> We can probably just lift those completely, though 2d10 turns is a lot longer than 3d6 rounds.  Was there a similar downgrading of the crystal ooze's paralysis in ToH?




Dunno.  I don't have the original Tome with me, and the CC version lacks paralysis altogether.


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## Mortis (Dec 6, 2007)

As an aside we've done an awful lot of constructs lately 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> As an aside we've done an awful lot of constructs lately




That was intentional.  Partly because I looked at the CC and noticed a lack of constructs compared to many other creature types, partly because it's easier to convert a bunch of similar creatures at once, and partially because I want to start trying to do "themed batches" of uploads.


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## Shade (Dec 6, 2007)

Give it the following ooze traits?


Blind (but have the blindsight special quality), with immunity to gaze attacks, visual effects, illusions, and other attack forms that rely on sight. 
Not subject to flanking. 

Damage reduction ?

Skills: 13 (Swim +8 from swim speed)
Put all ranks in Swim like the crystal ooze?

Feats: 4
Ability Focus (paralysis), Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Weapon Focus (slam)?

Environment: Any?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-8)

Advancement: ?

A slime golem is 6(?)feet tall and weighs around x pounds.


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2007)

Ooze traits: yes.
DR: isn't there a basic set for golems?  Maybe add bludgeoning as common for oozes.
Skills & feats look good.
Maybe any underground for environment?
No good idea for the organization.
Maybe standard advancement.
200lbs?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

How about "wave" for the organization?

Golems tend to have DR x/adamantine.   Spot-checking oozes, it appears that none of them have DR.   Your suggestion of x/bludgeoning seems reasonable, though.  It also stated a need for magical weapons, so we could go x/magic or x/bludgeoning and magic.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

I must be thinking of the oozes that split when you hit them with piercing or slashing, or something.  We should probably go with adamantine for DR.

Wave sounds good.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

Ahh...I see what you mean.

I like the /bludgeoning to help differentiate them from most golems.  Do we want to add "and magic"?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

If we're not adding adamantine, let's add magic.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

Will do.

CR 8?

Construction?  All we know is the following...



> These flaccid, squat, man-sized creatures are created from crystal ooze (MMII27), and combine some of the abilities of the ooze with those of a golem.




For starters, I'd say that a single crystal ooze is needed.  Beyond that, maybe hold person or hold monster (for the paralysis), invisibility (for the transparency), resist energy (for the immunity to acid, cold, and fire), and maybe polymorph (to "shape" the ooze)?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

CR 8 seems reasonable, I guess.  The AC is a bit low, but it has enough hp and plenty of other defenses.

I'd agree with all those spells.  Perhaps something like limited wish or wish to grant intelligence (what do we usually do for that?).  Awaken would be good, but it's a darned druid spell.  Any other components?  Maybe keep them simple because I imagine a crystal ooze is probably difficult enough to come by.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

Rather than go the usual geas/quest, limited wish, or animate objects route, how about fox's cunning to keep the caster level down?

Updated.

How's it look?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Sounds good and looks done!


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## Mortis (Dec 13, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> Sounds good and looks done!



I agree

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

*Cryptknights*
FREQUENCY: Very Rare
NUMBER APPEARING: 1-10
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVE: 12”
HIT DICE: 9
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NUMBER OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: continual fear
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi
ALIGNMENT: LE
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

Cryptknights are only known to exist in the wizard Martek’s tomb. Cryptknights are creatures that were time-trapped (see the SPECIAL NOTE in the MOBIUS TOWER PROLOGUE on page 20) just as they died. Thus, they became trapped in their deaths. Because of their frightening deaths, 70% of all Cryptknights emanate continuous fear (as the fourth level magic users’ spell fear). Over the centuries, some cryptknights escaped from the Mobius tower to other parts of Martek’s tomb. Cryptknights look like skeletal forms of the people they were before they were time-trapped.

From I5 - Lost Tomb of Martek (1983).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 5, 2008)

I say horrid appearance, as per a sea hag, for that level of fear. 

Do they attack with a slam for a d12, or should they carry around greataxes?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 5, 2008)

Good call on horrid appearance.

The greataxes would be interesting, but I get the feeling these would have slam attacks.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Semi-Intelligent is 2-4.

Nothing seems to cry out for anything other than average physical scores.
Wis is at least average, and Cha is probably low.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Well, we could reduce the slam damage and go with higher strength, but here's a provisional list:
Str 13, Dex 10, Con -, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 14.  I bumped Cha because the fear/horrid appearance DC will be based on Cha.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Those scores should work.

These things are terribly uninteresting.  Here's one idea to spice them up a tad:  Since they are "time-trapped", perhaps they should be immune to all time-affecting spells (slow, haste, time stop, etc.)?


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Also, do we have any more information on time-trapping?  Maybe there are more SAs we could dig out of that to make these a little more interesting.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

I'll have to page Echohawk, as I don't have the module in question.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 7, 2008)

I like the idea of being immune to time-based spells. Maybe spells with durations affect them differently? Rounds become minutes, minutes become hours, hours become days? This could be a blessing or a curse, depending on what sort of spell's on them.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

I like it.  I've paged Echohawk to see what else we can get on these guys.


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## freyar (Apr 8, 2008)

Courtesy of Echohawk:


> SPECIAL NOTE: The Mobius Tower is time-trapped. Most of the people and things in the Mobius Tower are in a different time-frame than the PCs. This does not affect the PCs in any way. Everything in the Mobius Tower (except the listed monsters) is moving VERY SLOWLY. A thousand years could pass before the PCs could see any of the people or things in the Tower move. These objects will seem to the PCs to be “frozen” in both time and space. Time-trapped people and things cannot be moved or damaged unless their time-frame is changed to the PCs' time-frame. There are only two ways of doing that:
> 1. Teleport the object into room L4a.
> 2. Change the object's time-frame with the Medallion of
> Time found in room L3f.




This doesn't give us much, but demiurge's idea about spell durations would make a lot of sense.  Maybe even instantaneous spells take a round before they work on them or something.

EDIT: Ooh, or maybe anything takes a while to happen to them.  So you chop them with a sword or something, and they take the damage one round later.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 8, 2008)

Delay Damage as a Su quality? I like it!

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 9, 2008)

Let's give this a whirl.  I'm opting for a slightly easier version of the extended spell durations, so see what you think.

Delay Damage (Su): Any effect takes a full round to affect a cryptknight.  For example, weapon damage done to a cryptknight applies one round after the successful attack.  Similarly, a spell affects a cryptknight one round after it normally would (a fireball targeting an area including a orc and a cryptknight would damage the orc immediately but the cryptknight one round later).  This also applies to nondamaging effects.

Spell Extension (Su): Any spell effect with a duration other than concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is doubled (as by the extend spell metamagic feat) in its effect on a cryptknight.   That is, a spell with a one round effect would last for two rounds.  In addition, the effect of the spell begins one round later than usual (see Delay Damage).


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 10, 2008)

I'd say "is doubled in duration" explicitly.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 10, 2008)

Oops, you're right, that's what I meant.

Spell Extension (Su): Any spell effect with a duration other than concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is doubled in duration (as by the extend spell metamagic feat) in its effect on a cryptknight. That is, a spell with a one round effect would last for two rounds. In addition, the effect of the spell begins one round later than usual (see Delay Damage).


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2008)

Great ideas!  I'll get these guys Homebrewed.


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## Shade (Apr 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Some more random thoughts...

What if these things moved at odd intervals, similar to Samara in The Ring or Lancelot in Monty Python and the Holy Grail?   You know what I mean, where they seem to just suddenly blink closer (or further)?  Maybe allow them to move as if in time stop every other round?

I think we need to beef them up a bit.  For 9 HD undead, they are rather weak.  Let's go with the greataxe, and increase the Str a bit to allow for a bit more damage.  Say, 17?

AC translates to 20.  With no Dex, that's all natural and armor.  Since they are skeletal undead, we could stick with the skeleton's +3 natural armor.  Since they have no Dex bonus, we could stick 'em in any sort of armor we'd like.

Shall we also give 'em a skeleton's damage reduction 5/bludgeoning and immunity to cold?


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## freyar (Apr 16, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> What if these things moved at odd intervals, similar to Samara in The Ring or Lancelot in Monty Python and the Holy Grail?   You know what I mean, where they seem to just suddenly blink closer (or further)?  Maybe allow them to move as if in time stop every other round?




Interesting idea!  Not quite sure how to write this one, though.



> I think we need to beef them up a bit.  For 9 HD undead, they are rather weak.  Let's go with the greataxe, and increase the Str a bit to allow for a bit more damage.  Say, 17?



Sounds good to me.


> AC translates to 20.  With no Dex, that's all natural and armor.  Since they are skeletal undead, we could stick with the skeleton's +3 natural armor.  Since they have no Dex bonus, we could stick 'em in any sort of armor we'd like.
> 
> Shall we also give 'em a skeleton's damage reduction 5/bludgeoning and immunity to cold?



DR and cold immunity sound good.  As these are knights after all, give them +3 natural armor and half-plate?  Alternately, I could see increasing the Dex some.  I didn't have a real reason for picking Dex 10.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 17, 2008)

I like the idea of them moving suddenly. Rather than time stop, we could model it on the blink dog's blinking ability (although we can say it's a temporal effect as opposed to a teleportation).

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

I found this ability from the temporal drake which seems to capture what I was thinking nicely...

Temporal Slide (Su): The temporal drake can manipulate time as it moves, allowing it to seemingly disappear and reappear elsewhere instantaneously. As a free action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, the temporal drake moves its current speed (following the normal rules for movement). The temporal drake can use this ability a number of times per day equal to its Constitution bonus (4 for an average temporal drake). It can use this ability only once per round.


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

Sounds good, we can just plug in the names.  

How's it looking?


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## Shade (Apr 17, 2008)

Updated.

I changed the number of times it could use temporal slide to Cha-based from Con-based, but it still can't do it seemingly often enough.  Should we just restrict it to every other round?


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## freyar (Apr 17, 2008)

Yeah, every other round.  These monsters need something, esp given their HD.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 17, 2008)

I say every other round.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Updated.

Wanna add anything else?

If not, we can move on to feats and skills.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

These are probably interesting enough for CR 7 or so.

Feats: Weapon Focus (greataxe), Imp Init, Great Fort, Lightning Reflexes?

I'd love some of the rest of the WF feat chain for these, but we'd have to give them an SA to qualify for fighter bonus feats.  Want to do that?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 18, 2008)

I like the idea of making them count as fighters for the purposes of feat selection. Not sure why I'm so fond of it, but it seems cool.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

If we go with this...

Feats:  Cryptknights count as fighters of a level equal to their Hit Dice for the purposes of meeting prerequisites for feats.

...a cryptknight could take Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

Let's do that.  Since we're going with half-plate and greataxes, they sound like they were fighters in life anyway.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 12 (-7 check penalty)

Organization: Solitary or x (2-10)

Challenge Rating: 6?

Alignment: Always lawful evil?

Advancement: 10-20 HD (Medium)? [This would make the greatest among them the equivalent of 20th-level fighters]


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

Skills: Spot 6, Listen 6 ?
Army? Field?
CR 6 and always LE sound fine.  So does the advancement.


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## Shade (Apr 18, 2008)

Updated.

The best name for a grouping of knights I could find was an "order".  Sound OK?

Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 18, 2008)

Sounds fine and looks done!


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 19, 2008)

Looks done to me, too!

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2008)

*Life-Bane Duplicates*

A duplicate created by Nuala's power of life-bane (see PSVII) is a magical entity which can parasitically tap the vitality of a single victim (no saving throw). This tapping cannot be halted until the duplicate is destroyed, or the victim dies from the strain, giving the duplicate the powers of the victim.

In appearance, voice and so on, a duplicate is indistinguishable from the original, and even has copies of the victim's clothing and equipment. Although a duplicate would be capable of fooling even the closest associates of the victim under normal circumstances, a truesight spell or similar magic would reveal it as an impostor, and a detect magic spell will reveal a magical aura.

*Powers of Duplicates*

Duplicates exist only as long as their individual victims live and they can continue to sap energy from them. During this time, duplicates can utilise all of the powers and abilities available to their individual victims... and more!

*Duplicated Powers*

With the exception of additional powers (see below), all of the attributes of a duplicate (including ability scores and bonuses, hit points, combat abilities, special abilities and so on) are identical to those of its victim before he or she was affected by Nuala's magic.

When the link is first established with a spell-using victim, the duplicate gains "copies" of the spells which the victim has memorised at the time and can cast them in the same manner. Although a duplicate's spells are used up in the normal way when it casts them, it cannot relearn spells of its own accord. Instead, the spells it has available are determined by which ones the victim memorises. Each time that its victim relearns spells or memorises new ones, the duplicate's list of available spells becomes the same as the victim's.

Although the duplicate has the same list of spells as its victim, the casting of a given spell by the duplicate does not affect the character's ability to use it. Similarly, if the character casts a spell this does not deprive the duplicate of it.

*Duplicated Equipment*

In addition to taking on the physical form of its victim, a duplicate also acquires temporary "copies" of all his or her personal equipment. This includes clothing, armour, weapons, magical items, horses or other animals, but not, of course, any human or demi-human henchmen or hirelings.

This equipment is identical in appearance to the originals, and can be used by the duplicate in the same way. It is not real in the ordinary sense and exists only because of the duplicate's life-draining. Only the duplicate concerned may use it, and it vanishes if the duplicate is destroyed. Acquisition or loss of equipment by the victim or duplicate do not affect the equipment possessed by the other -- nor do damage or other changes (including using up the charges of magical items).

*Additional Powers*

In addition to simply copying characters' original abilities, the accelerated rate at which duplicates use their victims' energies means that, in some respects, they are more powerful than the victims were originally. The extra abilities of duplicates are listed below:


Regeneration: Duplicates regenerate lost hit points at a rate of 2 per round after injury, so long as they remain above zero hit points.
Movement: Duplicates can move at a rate 3" greater than the victim.
Reaction Speed: Duplicates have a bonus of 1 on all initiative rolls.
Melee Attacks: In melee, a duplicate has 1 attack per round more than its victim had.
Magical Immunity: Duplicates are immune to mind-affecting magic, such as sleep, char, and hold spells.

*Killing Duplicates*

When a duplicate is "killed" (reduced to 0 hit points or below), it and all of its duplicated equipment vanish in a brilliant flash of light, leaving behind not a single trace.

Originally appeared in I8 – Ravager of Time.


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2008)

Strange: I wonder if these were just invented as replacement doppelgangers or something.

Obviously templates, I guess.  Looks like they are exactly the same as the base creature but gain fast healing 2, speed boost (not sure how much 3" corresponds to), +1 initiative, immunity to mind-affecting, maybe some sort of haste (for the extra attack).

How do you want to handle the spellcasting bit?

Should these be telepathically controlled by their creator or something?


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

freyar said:


> Strange: I wonder if these were just invented as replacement doppelgangers or something.




Probably.  Based on the subject matter of the module, I'm guessing they are from a different timestream.



freyar said:


> Obviously templates, I guess.  Looks like they are exactly the same as the base creature but gain fast healing 2, speed boost (not sure how much 3" corresponds to), +1 initiative, immunity to mind-affecting, maybe some sort of haste (for the extra attack).




That all sounds about right.  3" equals 30 feet.



freyar said:


> How do you want to handle the spellcasting bit?




I'd say that there spells known/spells per day are the same as the duplicated victim's at the beginning of a day.



freyar said:


> Should these be telepathically controlled by their creator or something?




We might want to bug Echohawk for more details from the module.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2008)

The extra attack and speed boost could be handled by just giving them a permanent haste effect--we've done this before for a number of critters.


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> The extra attack and speed boost could be handled by just giving them a permanent haste effect--we've done this before for a number of critters.



Yeah, that sounds like the simplest thing to do.


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## Echohawk (Jul 15, 2008)

Freyar said:
			
		

> Should these be telepathically controlled by their creator or something?





Shade said:


> We might want to bug Echohawk for more details from the module.




"*Creating Duplicates*
With this ability, Nuala can create a duplicates of a human or demi-human creatures and their equipment. These duplicates are parasitic entities which constantly drain and consume the vitality of their victims through an undetectable magical link. The duplicates are totally loyal to Nuala and, since they consume the victims' life-energy at a vastly accelerated rate, are more powerful than the originals. Life-bane duplicates are described on p24."


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Hmmm...it sounds like the creator doesn't have any special control over them.

It also sounds like some slow Con damage, similar to the symbionts, eh?


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Shade said:


> Hmmm...it sounds like the creator doesn't have any special control over them.
> 
> It also sounds like some slow Con damage, similar to the symbionts, eh?



Definitely agreed to the Con damage, maybe 1d4/day.  I don't think the creator has any direct control, but there should be some sort of loyalty as described.


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## Shade (Jul 18, 2008)

Added a rough outline to Homebrews.

We need to determine how the link between parasite and host is first established.  Apparently, it was an inherent ability of Nuala, but we'll need a way to make it more generically applicable.


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## freyar (Jul 18, 2008)

Well, we could write a spell.  It might also be interesting if they can be formed as a backlash from a failed incantation (ok, not exactly kosher SRD, but it's in the online versions).

Incidentally, in the template, you say that it deals 1d4 Con damage per day to the "host."  We should say that the host is the actual base creature, which exists simultaneously with the duplicate.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

That all sounds reasonable.  I rather like the idea of the failed incantation.   Another possibility is that they are sometimes created spontaneously as a side effect of using time-altering magic.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Oh, why don't we mention all these possibilities in the flavor text?

Ok, should we try to figure out what to do with spellcasting for these things?


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

freyar said:


> Oh, why don't we mention all these possibilities in the flavor text?




Sounds good.



freyar said:


> Ok, should we try to figure out what to do with spellcasting for these things?




Yes, and we also should address psionics and other "chosen daily" abilities.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, we have this so far:



> Duplicated Powers
> 
> With the exception of additional powers (see below), all of the attributes of a duplicate (including ability scores and bonuses, hit points, combat abilities, special abilities and so on) are identical to those of its victim before he or she was affected by Nuala's magic.
> 
> ...




This seems to work for characters that prepare spells, like wizards and clerics, but we need something for spontaneous casters as well as psionics.  

Actually, maybe we could say that they regenerate spell slots/power points when the target does, but they can use them as they like.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

freyar said:


> Actually, maybe we could say that they regenerate spell slots/power points when the target does, but they can use them as they like.  What do you think?




Yeah.  Simple and elegant.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

How about this, then?

Duplicated Powers

With the exception of additional powers (see below), all of the attributes of a duplicate (including ability scores and bonuses, hit points, combat abilities, special abilities and so on) are identical to those of its victim before he or she was affected by Nuala's magic.

When the link is first established with a victim that prepares spells, the duplicate gains "copies" of the spells which the victim has memorised at the time and can cast them in the same manner. Although a duplicate's spells are used up in the normal way when it casts them, it cannot relearn spells of its own accord. Instead, the spells it has available are determined by which ones the victim memorises. Each time that its victim relearns spells or memorises new ones, the duplicate's list of available spells becomes the same as the victim's.

When the link is first established with a victim that casts spells spontaneously or manifests psionic powers, the duplicate gains "copies" of the spell slots or power points that the victim possesses at that time.  Although the duplicate's spell slots or power points are used up in the usual way as it casts spells or manifests powers, the duplicate cannot regenerate spell slots or power points on its own.  Instead, the duplicate regenerates spell slots or power points precisely when the victim does.  The duplicate's list of spells or powers known is always identical to the victim's.

If the victim normally prepares spells but can cast some spontaneously (such as a cleric can cast cure or inflict spells spontaneously), the duplicate can do so as well.  This uses one of the duplicate's spell slots as normal, which is then only restored when the victim prepares spells again.

Although the duplicate has the same list of spells and powers as its victim, the casting of a given spell or use of a spell slot or power point by the duplicate does not affect the character's ability to use it. Similarly, if the character casts a spell or uses a spell slot or power point, this does not deprive the duplicate of it.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Excellent!   Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

Organization: Solitary or Party (3-6)?
CR: +2? Or is does the haste make it worth +3?
Treasure: Same as base creature, not adjusted for higher CR.
Always evil.
Advancement: As base creature.

I forget, do we need to put in that duplicates die when the victims die?


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

+2 seems reasonable and I agree we need to add that they die when the host dies.

Updated.



> In appearance, voice and so on, a duplicate is indistinguishable from the original, and even has copies of the victim's clothing and equipment. Although a duplicate would be capable of fooling even the closest associates of the victim under normal circumstances, a truesight spell or similar magic would reveal it as an impostor, and a detect magic spell will reveal a magical aura.




We probably need to address the true seeing/detect magic bits.



> *Duplicated Equipment*
> 
> In addition to taking on the physical form of its victim, a duplicate also acquires temporary "copies" of all his or her personal equipment. This includes clothing, armour, weapons, magical items, horses or other animals, but not, of course, any human or demi-human henchmen or hirelings.
> 
> This equipment is identical in appearance to the originals, and can be used by the duplicate in the same way. It is not real in the ordinary sense and exists only because of the duplicate's life-draining. Only the duplicate concerned may use it, and it vanishes if the duplicate is destroyed. Acquisition or loss of equipment by the victim or duplicate do not affect the equipment possessed by the other -- nor do damage or other changes (including using up the charges of magical items).




Should the duplicated items disappear if dropped?   If not, another could theoretically use it.

How do we want to handle duplicated mounts?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

On the first point:

Perfect Disguise (Ex): A life-bane duplicate's Disguise checks always defeats mundane opposed Spot checks to recognize the duplicate as an impostor.  However, life-bane duplicates always detect as magic to the detect magic spell (moderate aura, Conjuration and Transmutation magic) or similar spells.  In addition, true seeing and similar magic reveals that the life-bane duplicate is not, in fact, the creature it appears to be.

Do you think I got the spell schools right?

I guess the duplicate's equipment should disappear if dropped.  Maybe mounts run away if someone tries to use them (or vanish if they are force to be used)?  Have to think more on this.


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

I would say either transmutation, or as a magic item of a caster level equal to its Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Aug 8, 2008)

So, "However, life-bane duplicates always detect as magic to the detect magic spell (as a magic item of caster level equal to HD, Transmutation magic) or similar spells"?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Sounds good.   Updated.

Perhaps we should create a natural form for these things, just to keep it simple when viewed with true seeing and so forth?


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2008)

They could look like the true form of doppelgangers, maybe, sort of amorphous humanoids.  

Do we just need the sample?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

freyar said:


> Do we just need the sample?




I think so!


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Should we do a spellcaster or even something psionic? Or just 5th level fighter?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

How about a 10th-level ranger?  That gives us some spells and other abilities.


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2008)

Sounds good.  Maybe a gnome, too, if that's not too much work.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

Life-bane Duplicate, 10th-Level Gnome Ranger
Small Humanoid (Gnome)
Hit Dice: 10d8+30 (75 hp)
Initiative: +7
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: x (+1 size, +3 Dex, +1 dodge, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +10/+6
Attack: Weapon +15 melee (x) 
Full Attack: Weapon +15/+15/+10 melee (x) 
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Life drain, spells, spell-like abilities
Special Qualities: Animal companion, evasion, fast healing 2, favored enemy, gnome traits, haste, immunity to mind-affecting spells and abilities, low-light vision, perfect disguise, swift tracker, wild empathy, woodland stride
Saves: Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +5
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8
Skills: Concentration +11, Craft (alchemy) +2, Hide +16, Jump +21, Listen +17, Move Silently +16, Spot +15, Survival +15
Feats: Endurance (B), Improved Initiative (B), Track (B), 2 combat style bonus feats, 4 more
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or party (3-6)
Challenge Rating: 12
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Any evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +0

Life Drain (Su): A life-bane duplicate deals 1d4 points of Constitution damage to its host each day.

Haste (Su): A life-bane duplicate is continuously hasted (as the spell).  These modifications are already included in the statistics above.

Perfect Disguise (Ex): A life-bane duplicate's Disguise checks always defeats mundane opposed Spot checks to recognize the duplicate as an impostor. However, life-bane duplicates always detect as magic to the detect magic spell (as a magic item of caster level equal to HD, Transmutation magic) or similar spells. In addition, true seeing and similar magic reveals the life-bane duplicate's true form, that of a featureless humanoid.

Spell-Like Abilities: 1/day—speak with animals (burrowing mammal only, duration 1 minute). 

Spells:
1st-2
2nd-2

Stats before template:  Str 10, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 8.

Give him a gnome hooked hammer and the two-weapon fighting combat style?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2008)

I like the idea of the gnome hooked hammer and TWF.

Spells: 1st--longstrider, resist energy
2nd--bear's endurance, spike stones


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

I also like TWF and the spells.  

So we have TWF and Imp TWF for feats.  Too bad Weapon Finesse doesn't apply to the hooked hammer.  Maybe Weapon Focus, Two Weapon Defense, Iron Will, Track?

Three favored enemies: Humanoid (reptilian), Humanoid (goblinoid), Magical beast?


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

Blasted double posts!


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

It already gets Track as a bonus feat by virtue of being a ranger.  

The rest sounds good.

So...

Humanoid (reptilian) +6, Humanoid (goblinoid) +4, Magical beast +2?


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

You know, I'd like to run a ranger sometime...

The favored enemy order looks good.

Could do Animal Affinity or Self-Sufficient for the last feat.


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## Shade (Aug 21, 2008)

I've played one...wished I'd gone fighter/rogue instead.  

How about Acrobatic or Stealthy instead?

Mithral chain shirt for armor?


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Stealthy works, and so does the chain shirt.  Need anything else for this?


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Updated.

Since he's 10th-level, wanna give him a magic hooked hammer?


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Yeah, let's make it magic.  Want to make it +1/+1 or +1 shock/+0?  The prices are 4000 gp and 8000 gp respectively.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Let's keep it simple with +1/+1.

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Yeah, think it's done!


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## Leopold (Jun 1, 2009)

Bump. Very interested in getting these done.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Any requests?   Here's the list of what's left.


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## Leopold (Jun 1, 2009)

From Secret of the Slavers' Stockade (A2):

    * Cave Beetle - Vermin
    * Cave Lizard - Animal
    * Cave Spider - Vermin
    * Caveling - Humanoid


I searched the CC, can any of these be knocked out just because they are very similar to other creatures.   The only one that would be different would be the caveling.  If I had to start with one, start with that one.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

I'll page Echohawk for the stats.


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> The cave beetle, spider and lizard do not have full stat blocks, and appear only in the "wandering encounters" table for the caves inhabited by the cavelings:
> 
> Cave beetle (1; AC 5; MV 12"; HD 2+2; #AT 1; D 1-6)
> Cave spider (1-2; AC 8; MV 6"/15"; HD 1+1; #AT 1; D 1 + Poison, save at +2)
> Cave Lizard (1; AC 5; MV 15"; HD 3+1; #AT 1; D 1-8)




Why reinvent the wheel with these as they are just simply variants of existing monsters. 

Beetle (take out fire part same thing go large with more hp):
SRD:Giant Fire Beetle - D&D Wiki

Spider:
SRD:Small Monstrous Spider - D&D Wiki

Lizard (Make it a medium with more HD):
SRD:Lizard - D&D Wiki

Cavelings:
I can't find the link to the creature, I'm sure it's in one of the Tome of Horrors. These type of patchwork, island of dr. moreux creatures have been done before.

There is nothing special about them, I would consider just referencing a monster in the MM and say "See pg XXX for stats"  

All this could go in the other thread but I didn't see Shade posting.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

It's been a busy morning.  

I posted in the other thread, but I think the cavelings, despite being somewhat like mongrelfolk, are worthy of conversion.  The vermin, not so much.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Reposting what Echohawk provided...

There are a number of individual cavelings in A2, but this extract seems to provide a good overview of their culture, and stats for a typical caveling:

The cavelings have formed their own society within these caverns and live in different caves, one for each tribe. Most cavelings are insane and any children they have had, they have raised insane. Since most of the cavelings come from lawful races, they have reorganized themselves as one people where it is normal to be insane.

Each caveling tribe serves a purpose in the community. There is the tribe of Leaders, who help decide how new arrivals should be treated and direct the activities of the others. There is the tribe of Warriors who practice mock combats and are supposed to defend the cavelings from slavers and go on raids to the safe cell #28b. The Workers build things and gather fungus, water and small insects. The Hunters hunt cave beetles, spiders and the feared cave lizard. And the Thinkers are teachers and priests and help doctor wounded cavelings and make cavelings out of the children. 

Insanity is also on a tribal basis with the affliction helping to determine which tribe a caveling will become a member of. For example: Warriors might be homicidal maniacs, while Leaders might be suffering from megalomania. The DM should select the insanities and will find details in the Dungeon Masters Guide, pages 83-84.

The bodies of the cavelings are horribly twisted and distorted, due to Markessa's "improvements" and they are not recognizable as their original race. The DM should determine how a specific caveling has been modified. Some of the changes are useful, such as the ability to climb walls, infravision, clawed hands and so forth, while others will only grotesque. The typical caveling will be AC 10; MV 12"; HD 1, 2 or 3; #AT 1; D rock 1-2 +2 or stone club 1-6+2.

Communiction with cavelings will be difficult, because their language consists of gutteral grunts and shrieks.

When cavelings are first encountered they will be curious, but cautious. If the cavelings reaction is friendly they will try to amuse the newcomers with songs, dances, tricks and by throwing gifts of fungus or smooth stones at them. These actions may appear hostile to the party, but if no hostile action is taken in return, the party will be deemed friendly and they will grab the hands of the characters and drag them to the Leaders' cave. 

If the Leaders determine the characters are not the "Messengers of Light" they await, they will welcome them as caveling, and set a feast of fungus, puffballs, spider meat, dried roaches and fermented beetle juice. The beetle juice is very intoxicating and characters imbibing must save vs. Poison or become drunk and slow-witted. Drunk characters will fight at -2 to hit and damage.

There will be much dancing and hooting and then the Thinkers will be sent for to make the newcomers into cavelings. To make a caveling the Thinkers will attempt to surgically alter the form of the character. A character must make a system shock roll to survive the completed operation. 

Several encounter areas are provided below with information about certain personalities detailed. The DM should create the characteristics of the other cavelings. The caveling reactions are left to the DM's decision because they are so random and insane.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Template or "cafeteria plan" like the seelie faeries?


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## Echohawk (Jun 2, 2009)

If you go the "cafeteria plan" route, nudge me to post some of the examples cavelings in A2; those should help populate the menu.


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

If by cafeteria plan you mean taking the base creature, adding a bunch of random abilities on it and calling it OK then I'm in agreement.  I can't find the seelie faerie stuff to use but I'm pretty sure we could cobble together a list and have them pick.

I'm using the different tribes and associating them to a class to get a better feel for how to spec them out or use them accordingly.

Leaders:  Aristocrat base
Warriors: Fighter base
Workers: Commoner base
Hunters:  Ranger base
Thinkers: Clearic base
I found this neat little table of mental illnesses:

Discordia Inc. - RPGs - Avatar - Chapter 7 - Magic - Part 1 of 4

or if we wanted to use the FLAWS system (which is already done for us) it could work better:
Roleplaying Flaws (DnD Other - D&D Wiki)


I'm rethinking this idea. A template at first to put over the base HUMANOID (gotta be humanoid) creature, then from there have a seperate list of abilities that the dm could pick if it's a warrior, thinker, hunter. Then tack on 1d4 mental illnesses and call it a day. 

That sounds feasable.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

A template with tables?  Could work!  But this definitely seems to call for tables, if maybe only one or two.

We're getting a lot of that recently.  Just because we're getting into tougher conversions?


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> A template with tables?  Could work!  But this definitely seems to call for tables, if maybe only one or two.



Tables would easy to do as, like you said you only need 2:
1. Subspecies/class and any bonus'
2. Insanity chart

The more I look at that 2ndary flaw listing I find that it will do rather well for us to use that as a reference instead of making something new all together.  It's got: branded, misfigured, compulsive liar, lecherous. All quality ideas that are applicable to this creature and save us a mountain of time.




> We're getting a lot of that recently.  Just because we're getting into tougher conversions?




From looking at the creatures in the past they was a few things that went on.
None of us had a feel for how to convert the creatures, now we do. Most of the people wanted the generic stuff which was easy to convert.

This stuff is oddball and random. Heck, most of these critters I've never heard of before (maztica ones come to mind).  This is the time to stretch that brain power and see what magic we can come up with!  Less than 1000 left!


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Yes, I'm not sure we need the insanity table, just note that they are all quite insane and possibly point to references if people need ideas.


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

Ok. let's start on the template then and then go from there leaving the insanity part alone for now. Shade normally does this part right?


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

We do need Shade to start a homebrews, but we can start thinking about basics.

Can be applied to any humanoid.  
Probably mental stat penalties (though choosing from the table of "mutations" might reduce some of those).  
What else?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2009)

Yeah, a template with a mutation table seems appropriate here.


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## Leopold (Jun 3, 2009)

Leaders: +4 CHA -2 INT
Warriors: +4 STR/CON -6 INT
Workers: +4 CON -6 INT
Hunters: +4 DEX/CON -6 INT
Thinkers: +4 WIS -2 INT

I can't see adding an extra HD to this template. I'll tack on lowlight vision just due to living in the caves.

Trying to flesh out which stats are priortiy. I can't see these critters being anything more than an ECL of 1.

These things are basically insane humanlike critters who've been experimented on. Their alignment is Lawful(Any). They are bat  crazy.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

Those ability score boosts seem a bit too generous.  I'm not sure that any physical ability scores changes are justified, regardless of caste.

Insanity is often associated with Wisdom loss, so I'd recommend a Wisdom penalty at the very least.

Darkvision would seem to make more sense than low-light vision considering their habitat, although I could see the argument for both (phosporescent fungus and so forth providing low-light conditions).

I added the basic framework to Homebrews.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't think we should have any stat changes for caste. That's just classes. Non-elite array, if we must.


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## Leopold (Jun 4, 2009)

I figured the bigger creatures were stronger so had more ablities, wanted to counter balance the -stat loss.  Insanity isn't INT loss? Wrong there for me. So much to remember.

Darkvision over lowlight is fine that makes sense.   

Do we really need a massive template or would a simple ECL of 0 be acceptable here with the majority of the work be the insanity table? Won't the flaws work just as well? This really doesn't seem to be that complex of a conversion as these critters have no real special bonus', no real special additions, just misfigured shells of the base critter. 

Only bonus' are their 1d3 (seems right) modifications and the -4 to WIS, their Lawful (any).  Considering these things are going nutty why not reduce the avg WIS by -4. 

the class table above could be used to say what each critter is like in the caste for the DM to use.  


Beetle juice:  Fort save DC 12 (this adventure was very low level) or recieve -2 to BAB/DMG


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

Insane but Lawful.  I like! 

I'd think the Wis penalty, either -2 or -4 is enough to the abilities, although we could have one or more mutation offer a bonus to Str or Dex (I don't get a vibe that these will get Con bonuses, though).  

For the mutations, we might want to revisit the troll mutates.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Since these guys are truly insane, I'm wondering if we shouldn't just set Wisdom to 1?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

BTW, I found the source of the "loss of Wisdom = insanity".  It's mainly associated with the Far Realm, particularly the alienist prestige class and the article "Enter the Far Realm" in Dragon Magazine #330.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Since these guys are truly insane, I'm wondering if we shouldn't just set Wisdom to 1?



Insane, but not totally unaware of their surroundings, I think.  Let's not go all the way to Wis 1.  However, I could also see some Int or Cha penalty (particularly Cha, due to their weirdness).


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 7, 2009)

Big ol' Wis and Cha penalties.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

-8 Wis, -4 Cha (minimum 1 for both)?


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

I'm blind. Freyar enlightened me


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

I think I like -4 to all mental abilities (minimum 1).  How's that sound to people?

Leopold, the homebrews is here, for your reference.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2009)

Minimum 3 for Int, at the least. And I'd be alright allowing them to keep their Int. They sound fairly clever, what with their surgical techniques. Just grotesque, mad and horrible.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Agreed to keeping Int, based on original description.

So -4 Wis, -4 Cha?


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

Those penalties look acceptable.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Sure, fine by me.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Updated.

Let's work on the mutations.



> The DM should determine how a specific caveling has been modified. Some of the changes are useful, such as the ability to climb walls, infravision, clawed hands and so forth, while others will only grotesque.




Suction Cups (Ex):  The caveling's fingertips end in lizardlike suction cups, granting it a climb speed of 10 feet.

Low-Light Vision (Ex):  The caveling gains low-light vision.

Claws (Ex):  The caveling's hands end in wicked claws.  It gains two claw attacks as natural attacks that deal 1d4 points of damage each.

Some more ideas...

Gills (Ex):  The caveling can breathe water as well as air.

Fangs (Ex):  The caveling gains a bite attack that deals 1d6 points of damage.

Cricket Legs (Ex):  The caveling's legs have warped into an approximation of a cave cricket's.  The caveling gains a +10 racial bonus on Jump checks.

Deformity:  The caveling's appearance has grown more grotesque, resulting in a -2 penalty on Charisma-based skill checks.

Other suggestions?


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

Massive Intellect: Creature gains +2 to INT but -1 to CHA due to swelling of the frontal lobe.

Hunter Sense: Gains Scent ability 

bug Eye: Gains insect like eyeballs +10 to spot check but bright light causes -4 to all rolls.

Cavern FAngs: Creature gains bite attack 1d4

Farmer's Touch: +4 to all Knowledge(Nature) and Knowledge(plant) checks, skin has a green color to it

Blood of the FAllen: Damage caused by sharp weapons has a chance to cause 1d4 damage to the attacker.

Muscle Back: Bulging muscles implanted in the body +2 to Str but -2 to INT


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

We might borrow from the troll mutate.  The cavelings have surgically attached deformities, but it's sort of similar to random growths.  Also, I like the idea of rolling for the mutation.


			
				Troll Mutate said:
			
		

> Troll Mutation Table
> 1d12 - Appendage
> 1 - Arm (claw 1d4+Str)
> 2 - Ear (+2 bonus on Listen and Balance checks and a -1 penalty on saves vs. sonic attacks)
> ...


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

If we can come up with 20 total mutations a 1d20 would work well with:

19. Exceptional Mutation, roll twice on this table
20. Test Subject: Roll four times on this table.

So only need 6 after that table with a few modifications


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Well, you guys already have (counting distinct ones): suction cups, low-light vision, claws, gills, fangs, cricket legs, deformity, massive intellect, bug eye, farmer's touch, blood of the fallen, muscle back.  That's 12.  Blood of the fallen seems a little weird to me, but maybe we could change it into acid blood or something?

From the troll mutate table, I'd probably pick additionally numbers 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8.  But we'd need to change the names, perhaps.


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Updated.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

I threw out ideas off the top of my head. Feel free to pick and choose ones that are good and toss out ones that suck


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

I used most of 'em.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

Hm... looking at those mutations:

Acid blood should have an "of", not an "od".

I'm not sure I like fungal farmer. I don't get how the mutated skin and bonus to Knowledge go together, or necessarily with farming fungus. How about green-gray skin and +4 to saves vs. poison and disease? Working around spores will expose you to a lot of those.

Bug eyes--I believe the most appropriate word is "compound", not "insectile".

Should we specify that the damages listed for the various natural weapons are as appropriate for a Medium-sized creature, and thus larger or smaller cavelings should have different base damages?


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I think I agree with demiurge about Fungal Farmer.  The save bonus is nice!

Also, let's have those be Medium damages, sure.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

I agree with all that.

Since it is based on the humanoid type, would it be fairly safe to assume that most will be Small, Medium, or Large?   If so, we can just list damage values for each size on the pertinent traits.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I think that would be a pretty safe assumption.  If not, the DM can judge how to change the weapon damage, just like normal manufactured weapons.


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

They could be made of stone, simple weapons mostly. These guys are castoffs and pretty much work with what they have at hand.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

These are natural weapons, I think.  I do agree that our sample should have crude manufactured weapons, like a club.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Agreed.  Updated.

Were we still planning to work with the variable psychoses, or just stick with Wis and Cha loss?


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

Stick with Wis and CHA loss. Any psychosis make it flavor text for DM to work with and provide reference to some ideas on which to use:

Leaders: Insane, Meglomaniac
Hunters: ADD
Warriors: Homocidial maniacs
thinkers: Maniac depressive

It's mostly for roleplay I'd say. Creating stat blocks and templates would be a pain in the ass for this. If  you want reference go here, there's TONS of them:

Roleplaying Flaws (DnD Other - D&D Wiki)

Copy and paste if needbe.

example:



> Multiple Personality Disorder
> 
> You have more than one personality.
> 
> ...


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

Yeah, I'd agree to the psychoses being flavor only.

Tribe (20-200)?
CR: you think it deserves a +1?  I'm not sure.
LA: same question

The rest looks good!  Are we putting in a juice sidebar?


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

With the loss to wisdom, the disfigurement, and the psychosis I'd tack on an LA/CR of 1 to these things.  It really depends on how many afflictions one of these has. 

We could scale it to say: less than 2=0  2-4=1 5-7=2 etc etc
That way if someone had a very nasty homocidial,meglomaniac orc sorcerer with 3 arms, tough skin, and acid blood it would scale up.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

I think the loss to mental scores balances out the gain of the mutations.  If any seem exceedinly beneficial, we can note that the the individual mutation modifies the CR and/or LA by +x.


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## freyar (Jun 11, 2009)

Maybe a small bump for someone with a lot of mutations or perhaps some specific ones.  Sure, I can see that.


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## Leopold (Jun 12, 2009)

Lets go with the Exceptional mutations with an LA and then note something around having a few stack doesn't mean additive, every 3 +1 =+2 or something. Want to keep the math simple yet flexible...or just make them all .5 and round down


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Looking them over, I'd say acidic blood and modified anatomy both warrant a CR increase.  I'd think that exceptionally mutated would be +1 and test subject +2.

For LA, it gets a bit trickier...

Acidic Blood = +1
All-Around Vision = +1
Hunter Sense = +1
Modified Anatomy = +1
Suction Cups = +1

And probably an additional +1 for exceptionally mutated and +2 for test subject.


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

looks fine. Anything else we are missing?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

I think that sounds fair.  

The only thing I think is missing is the sample creature!


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

and we use a gnome warrior for these?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

I think we've went to the gnome well a few too many times lately!

How about a hobgoblin?


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

Hobgoblin or Orc works fine.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Mmmm, subsumed gnomes, my favorite! 

Hobgoblinn sounds fine.    I rolled randomly for a mutation and got 17 tentacle.  Want to stick with that, or does anyone have anything specific in mind?


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

PIck 2 mutations and go with it.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Roll up a second one, freyar!


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

DiceSage says #9 -- Fungal Farmer!


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Our tentacled, hobgoblin fungal farmer shall soon appear in the Homebrews writeup.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Updated.

We still need to fill in the Organization line for the template.


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

I'll say : Gang (2–4), squad (11–20 plus 2 3rd-level mutatns and 1 leader of 3rd–6th level), or band (30–100 plus 150% noncombatants plus 1 3rd-level mutant per 10 adults, 5 5th-level mutants, and 3 7th-level leaders) 


I stole the orc section and edited it.  This is about right for this type of organization that has allot of outcasts of all shapes and if they are found running around in big packs someone with some brains and higher level will be with them.

furhtermore it doesn't overally imbalance the Dungeon that this came from as the pc's are level 3-7 and probably don't want to tackle on a whole village but they can.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

That's similar to LE hobgoblins, so that organization seems fine.  These are about done, then!


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left?


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

looks good to me chief.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

How does the tentacle work? It's unclear from the wording "constrict a grappled opponent". What I'm assuming is that the creature doesn't have an ordinary tentacle attack, but does bonus damage in a grapple it initiates by other means, yes?


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

ATtacks just like an octopus does. Use that as a reference.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> How does the tentacle work? It's unclear from the wording "constrict a grappled opponent". What I'm assuming is that the creature doesn't have an ordinary tentacle attack, but does bonus damage in a grapple it initiates by other means, yes?




Yeah, that was the intent.  I agree it is a bit vague.  Can you suggest a better wording?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

17. Tentacle (Ex): The caveling gains a tentacle.  The tentacle does not have an independent natural attack, but the caveling automatically constricts a grappled opponent on a successful grapple check, doing bludgeoning damage based on size: Small = 1d3, Medium = 1d4, Large = 1d6.

That better?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

Much better. Also Leopold, octopus do have an independant tentacle attack, so that isn't very applicable as a reference point.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Nice!  Updated.


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Much better. Also Leopold, octopus do have an independant tentacle attack, so that isn't very applicable as a reference point.




I picked the first thing that came to mind with a tentacle *shrug*


This one done? What's next?


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## freyar (Jun 18, 2009)

Yeah, looks good.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

I can't believe these have gone unconverted so long!

*Guardian Daemon*
FREQUENCY: Very rare 
INO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOUR CLASS: 1
MOVE: 9" (but see below)
HIT DICE: 8
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1 - 12/1- 12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENCES:See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: See below 
INTELLIGENCE: Very
ALl GNM ENT: Neutral
S I2 E : Variable
PSlONlC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL1X.P. VALUE: V11/1,275 + IO per hitpoint

These daemons vary in size and form - examples encountered have resembled type I I or type IV demons, large bears and wild cats. They are summoned by evil high priests to guard treasure and though their movement for melee purposes is 9' they are constrained never to leave the treasure they guard, unless released by the summoner. Despite their variation in size and form they always exhibit certain characteristics in common:

a) immunity to charm, hold, sleep, polymorph and fear;

b) immunity to non-magical weapons and to magical weapons with a bonus less than +2;

c) ability to speak and understand all languages; and

d) ability to breathe fire in a cone 30' long with a IO' base diameter inflicting 5-30 hit points of damage (saving throw will halve damage).

In melee the daemon attacks with a bite for 1-6 hit points of damage and two claws, each inflicting 1-1 2 hit points of damage, since they are unable to use their breath weapon on a target within IO'. The nature of their summoning usually (80%) leaves them invulnerable to one other particular form of attack (e.g. fire or swords) in addition to those specified above.

Guardian daemons have no treasure of their own (on the Prime Material Plane -they may well own treasure in their natural home) and will always be guarding the treasure of their summoner, so treasure must be determined by reference to the summoner. In that treasure there will usually be at least one clerical scroll and/or a magical device of clerical nature.

Originally appeared in Fiend Folio (1981).

Here's the 2e Monstrous Manual version...

*Yugoloth, Guardian*
Least Lesser Greater 
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any Any Any 
FREQUENCY: Rare Very rare Very rare 
ORGANIZATION: Solitary Solitary Solitary 
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any Any Any 
DIET: Nil Nil Nil 
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10) Very (11-12) High (13-14) 
TREASURE: See below See below See below 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Neutral (evil) Neutral (evil) 
NO. APPEARING: 1 1 1 
ARMOR CLASS: 3 1 -1 
MOVEMENT: 9 9 9, Fl 9 (D) 
HIT DICE: 6 8 10 
THAC0: 15 13 11 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 3 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4/1-10/1-10 1-6/1-12/1-12 1-10/1-12/1-12 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below See below See below 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below See below See below 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil Nil 25% 
SIZE: Variable Variable L (9' tall) 
MORALE: Elite (14) Champion (16) Fanatic (18) 
XP VALUE: 2,000 4,000 11,000

These yugoloths are summoned by evil wizards or priests to guard something of importance. Yugoloth guardians always defend their charge with great ferocity.

There are three types of yugoloth guardians -- least, lesser, and greater. The least and lesser yugoloth guardians vary in size and form, often being horned and frog-like (least) or ape- or boar-like (lesser). Greater yugoloth guardians always appear as gigantic, winged bears with ram horns protruding from their foreheads, and eagle talons for hands.

yugoloths guardian have the ability to speak all languages.

Combat: yugoloth guardians can breath fire three times per day in a cone 30 feet long with a 10-foot base diameter. Damage depends upon the type of daemon breathing. Least and lesser yugoloths cause 3d6 and 5d6 points of damage, respectively, while greater yugoloths inflict 7d6 points per breath attack. A successful saving throw vs. breath weapon reduces damage by half. Yugoloth guardians never use their fire breath if the fire might damage whatever they are assigned to protect.

All yugoloth guardians are immune to charm, hold, sleep, polymorph, and fear spells. Lesser and greater yugoloths are also impervious to weapons with less than a +2 bonus. Many of these creatures are invulnerable to one or more additional forms of attack (e.g., sword, cold, fire, electricity).

Habitat/Society: Yugoloth guardians must remain at all times within 90 yards of the object they have been summoned to protect. Within this 90-yard radius, yugoloth guardians prefer to remain at a distance in battle, using their breath weapon to maximum advantage.

Ecology: Summoning a guardian daemon is a dangerous affair. There is a 10% chance for each level the summoner is over 7th level of having his request for a guardian daemon granted (maximum chance of 90%). Conversely, if the summoning fails, there is a 30% chance (-2% per level of the summoner over 10th) that the daemon takes offense and gates in to slay the spellcaster.

Least Yugoloth
These creatures are often summoned to protect treasures valued at less than 25,000 gold pieces. Least yugoloths have a 50% chance of being immune to one additional type of attack.

Lesser Yugoloth
Lesser yugoloths are usually found guarding treasures of 25,000 gold pieces or more. They have a 80% chance of being impervious to one additional attack form.

Greater Yugoloth
These yugoloths are dispatched only to protect objects of exceedingly great value. Greater yugoloth guardians are resistant to magic (25%) and are always immune to two additional forms of attack. They can make a suggestion, as the spell, once per round, even when engaged in combat.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2009)

Yugoloth Traits: A yugoloth possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
—Immunity to acid and poison.
—Resistance to cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
—Summon (Sp): Yugoloths share the ability to summon others of their kind (the success chance and type of yugoloth summoned are noted in each monster description). Summoning a yugoloth poses a serious risk. There is a 25% chance that a summoned yugoloth turns on its summoner, attacking immediately (and hoping for a reward from whatever was threatening the first yugoloth).
—Yugoloths can communicate telepathically with any creature within 100 feet that has a language. 
Except where otherwise noted, yugoloths speak Abyssal, Draconic, and Infernal.

Here are the ability scores of similar-HD yugoloths...

Canoloth (6 HD, M): Str 19, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 5, Wis 17, Cha 12
Dergholoth (8 HD, L): Str 20, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 14
Echinoloth (8 HD, L): Str 22, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 11
Piscoloth (9 HD, M): Str 19, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 14
Marraenoloth (10 HD, M): Str 13, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 10
Mezzoloth (10 HD, M): Str 16, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 14

I’d recommend we make the least Small, the lesser Medium, and the greater Large.   Int 9, 11, 13 respectively?


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2009)

Wow, lots of awesome recently! 

I agree with your recommendations.  Probably these should have pretty decent physical stats, too, Str for the melee attacks and Con for the breath weapon.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2009)

They're in the Tome of Horrors.

That said, I wouldn't mind doing our own version...


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

What are they called in the ToH?  I can't tell from the contents listed through the CC page.  But anyway, I'm game to do them if Shade is.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

They're listed as "Guardian Daemon", separate from the standard Daemon entry.

I'm using an older (re: pre-4e) version of Echohawk's index, so it was still on the unconverted pile.

Still, I'm fine with doing our own version of them.  I'm a sucker for all things fiendish.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

In that case, do we want to do 1 version (a la 1e) or 3 versions (a la 2e)?  Let's definitely use the 'loth traits.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Since they have variable powers by size, I think three types is the best approach.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2009)

Okee dokee.  More fiends is always better!

Start with the least version?


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2009)

Least: Small, Str 16, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 10?
Lesser: Medium, Str 18, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 12?
Greater: Large, Str 22, Dex 12, Con 23, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 14?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

That all sounds reasonable to me!

I like that we're going the other route than the ToH did, more variety.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

Those ability scores appeal.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> ability to speak and understand all languages




Tongues, or does the usual yugoloth telepathy cover it well enough?



> Least Yugoloth
> These creatures are often summoned to protect treasures valued at less than 25,000 gold pieces. Least yugoloths have a 50% chance of being immune to one additional type of attack.




Shall we have a table of random immunities, with half the numbers having a result of "none"?

Something like...

d20
1 - cold
2 - electricity
3 - fire 
4 - sonic
5 - force
6 - death effects
7 - ability damage/drain
8 - stunning and paralysis
9 - critical hits
10 - spells and effects with the good descriptor
11-20 No additional immunity


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Telepathy is good enough for me, but I'm not averse to Tongues if anyone wants it.

I like the random immunities table!  

I'm not seeing anything else needed in the way of special abilities.  It doesn't seem like these even get summon yugoloth.  Skills and feats already?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 7, 2009)

I prefer tongues, and like the random immunities table.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

We'll need to address this...



> Yugoloth guardians must remain at all times within 90 yards of the object they have been summoned to protect. Within this 90-yard radius, yugoloth guardians prefer to remain at a distance in battle, using their breath weapon to maximum advantage.




And this...



> Summoning a guardian daemon is a dangerous affair. There is a 10% chance for each level the summoner is over 7th level of having his request for a guardian daemon granted (maximum chance of 90%). Conversely, if the summoning fails, there is a 30% chance (-2% per level of the summoner over 10th) that the daemon takes offense and gates in to slay the spellcaster.


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## Shade (Aug 7, 2009)

Also, since these things are guardians, I think they should at the very least get racial bonuses on Listen and Spot, and maybe get some magical form of detection, like detect magic or see invisibility.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Aug 7, 2009)

Hmm:

Devoted Guardian (Su): A guardian daemon that agrees to protect an object is mystically bound to it.  Until it completes its term or service or is released from its agreement, it may not move more than 270 ft from the object it guards.

The summoning danger sounds like the text in the normal summon yugoloths ability, don't you think?  This could potentially go into flavor.  Though if they can gate in to attack, I guess we should give them plane shift or gate or something!

Racial bonuses to Spot and Listen are good.  Always-on see invisibility also sounds good, not so sure about detect magic.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 8, 2009)

The summoning thing's basically folded up into the planar ally spells. Perhaps mention that guardian daemons take offense to unconvincing summoners, and attack if the Cha check is failed?


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## freyar (Aug 9, 2009)

You mean planar binding?  But I'd agree that sounds like an elegant solution.  And doesn't seem to require any extra SLA for the daemons.  Nice.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 9, 2009)

Yes, planar binding.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Yep, great solution!

For the devoted guardian, wanna bump it up to a more round number like 300 feet (or even 300 yards like the dryad's tree dependent ability)?   

Also, we should note what happens if one is forced outside its range.  Does it immediately teleport back, as if a word of recall were cast, or does it suffer damage, etc.?


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

300 ft sounds reasonable.  As for being forced out, I think I prefer the teleportation option.  Which do you like?


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

The same.  Any objections?


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2009)

Here's a test run:

Devoted Guardian (Su): A guardian daemon that agrees to protect an object is mystically bound to it. Until it completes its term or service or is released from its agreement, it may not move more than 300 ft from the object it guards.  If the daemon is forced outside that range, it is instantly teleported back to a designated area within 5 ft of the treasure, as if by a word of recall spell.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2009)

Looks good.  Would it be simpler to just state "adjacent to the treasure", since the greaters will be larger than 5 feet?


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2009)

That sounds reasonable!


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 12, 2009)

300 feet plus teleport is pretty good.


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 7 at 9 ranks
Listen, Sense Motive, Spot...
+4 racial bonus on Listen and Spot?

Feats: 3
Alertness, Improved Initiative, Multiattack?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

Agreed to the racial Spot and Listen bonuses. Your feats make sense, but I can't help but think there's something we could do that's better than Alertness. Lightning Reflexes?


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

Sure.  Power Attack makes sense, too, since they're mostly melee beasts.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 13, 2009)

I was contemplating Power Attack. My rationale was that Lightning Reflexes would make them more defensive, since they'd pass more Reflex saves and take even less damage from AoEs. On the other hand, Power Attack would allow them to deal more damage faster, potentially preventing their guarded treasures from getting stolen more easily. Hm. Either works for me. freyar?


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## Shade (Aug 13, 2009)

We could always retain both, and make Improved Initiative a bonus feat.


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## freyar (Aug 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> We could always retain both, and make Improved Initiative a bonus feat.



That sounds like a good plan! And it makes some sense for them to have Imp Init as a bonus in their guardian nature.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 14, 2009)

Sure!


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Updated.

We need four more skills.  Intimidate?  Knowledge (the planes)?


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

Those two, Appraise, and Tumble.  Somehow Appraise just feels appropriate, given their greedy nature and any potential need to guard the most valuable item.


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## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 4-5?  (Canoloths seem a bit deadlier at CR 5)

Treasure: Standard?

Advancement: 7 HD (Small) (Lesser version starts at 8 HD)

Did we ever decide on DR?   I'd recommend 5/evil like the canoloth.


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

That all sounds right.  It's a good CR 4, but probably CR 4 is ok.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 14, 2009)

You mean DR 5/good? 

Love Appraise, by the way.

Oh, and the claw damage in the Attack line is very, very wrong.


----------



## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

Oops...yeah, DR/good.

Updated.

I added some flavor text.   Feel free to expand upon it.

A lesser guardian yugoloth is x feet tall and weighs x pounds. Their appearances very, but are most often horned and froglike.


----------



## freyar (Aug 14, 2009)

What is/was wrong with the claw damage?  The original text lists claws as 1-10, bites as 1-6.

The flavor you have is excellent!

3 ft tall, 50 lb?


----------



## Shade (Aug 14, 2009)

I had the attack line as 1-3 or something else wonky.

Bite is 1d4 for the least.

Suggested size sounds good.


----------



## freyar (Aug 15, 2009)

Yeah, you're right on the bite, just remembered wrong on typing that.

Ready for the lesser one?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 15, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

> Lesser Yugoloth
> Lesser yugoloths are usually found guarding treasures of 25,000 gold pieces or more. They have a 80% chance of being impervious to one additional attack form.




So we can just modify the table to allow greater chances of additional immunity.  Like so?

1-2 - cold
3-4 - electricity
5-6 - fire 
7-8 - sonic
9-10 - force
11 - death effects
12 - ability damage/drain
13 - stunning and paralysis
14 - critical hits
15 - spells and effects with the good descriptor
16-20 - No additional immunity



> Lesser and greater yugoloths are also impervious to weapons with less than a +2 bonus.




Add "and magic" to the DR 5/good? Or silver like some of the high-end yuguloths?

Upthread, we decided upon Medium, Str 18, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 11, Wis 14, Cha 12.

Fire breath is listed as 5d6.


----------



## demiurge1138 (Aug 17, 2009)

Add silver to the DR.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: Appraise +11, Balance +3, Diplomacy +3, Intimidate +12, Jump +6, Knowledge (the planes) +11, Listen +17, Sense Motive +13, Spot +17, Survival +2 (+4 on other planes), Tumble +12, *1 more at 11 ranks*

Challenge Rating: 5-6?

A lesser guardian yugoloth is around 6 feet tall and weighs rougly x pounds. Their appearances very, but are most often apelike and boarlike.


----------



## freyar (Aug 17, 2009)

Looks good!

Let's add Bluff.

CR 6?  I was going to say 5, because it's pretty comparable to the CR 5 greater barghest, but I think the CR 6 average salamander doesn't really look better unless Imp Grab is worth more than I think.


----------



## Shade (Aug 17, 2009)

Updated.

A lesser guardian yugoloth is around 6 feet tall and weighs rougly x pounds. Their appearances very, but are most often apelike and boarlike.   (An adult male ape is 5-1/2 to 6 feet tall and weighs 300 to 400 pounds.)


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Agreed to Bluff and CR 6. The greater barghest is woefully under CRed.


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Ok, then, bump to CR 6 and add that weight, and we're ready for the greater one.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Perhaps we want to make the breath weapon bigger for this version? A 10 foot cone is pretty sad coverage.


----------



## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Good point.  20 ft for the lesser?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

How about 30 for the lesser, and 60 for the greater?


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

30 ft is fine, but greater ones aren't bigger than Large are they?  60 ft would be the same as a  Gargantuan dragon.  Nothing precisely wrong with that, but it's a little weird thinking about it.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Good point.  40 ft. like a Large dragon is fine.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

All agreed to 10/30/40 ft for least/lesser/greater?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 18, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2009)

Updated.



> Greater Yugoloth
> These yugoloths are dispatched only to protect objects of exceedingly great value. Greater yugoloth guardians are resistant to magic (25%) and are always immune to two additional forms of attack. They can make a suggestion, as the spell, once per round, even when engaged in combat.




Spell resistance CR + 6?

Suggestion as an automatically quickened, at will SLA?

Additional Immunity (Ex): Greater guardian yugoloths possess two additional immunities. Roll 1d20 and consult the table below.  If the same ability is rolled twice, roll again.

1-2 - cold
3-4 - electricity
5-6 - fire 
7-8 - sonic
9-10 - force
11-12 - death effects
13-14 - ability damage/drain
15-16 - stunning and paralysis
17-18 - critical hits
19-20 - spells and effects with the good descriptor



> Greater yugoloth guardians always appear as gigantic, winged bears with ram horns protruding from their foreheads, and eagle talons for hands.




Any interest in adding a head butt attack?

Upthread we decided on Large, Str 22, Dex 12, Con 23, Int 13, Wis 16, Cha 14.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2009)

Yes, yes, looks good, and sure!  Maybe not too strong, like 1d6?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 19, 2009)

Agreed to a gore attack. From the sound of "even while engaged in combat", it sounds like that suggestion might be quickened.


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: Appraise +14, Balance +3, Bluff +15, Diplomacy +6, Disguise +2 (+4 acting), Intimidate +17, Jump +6, Knowledge (the planes) +14, Listen +20, Sense Motive +16, Spot +20, Survival +3 (+5 on other planes), Tumble +14, *1 more at 13 ranks*

Feats: Improved Initiative (B), Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack, *1 more*

Hover?

Advancement: 11-20 HD (Large); 21-30 HD (Huge)?

A greater guardian yugoloth is around 9 feet tall and weighs rougly x pounds.  (An owlbear is 8 feet tall and weighs up to 1,500 pounds)


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## freyar (Aug 19, 2009)

Umm, Search in case a rogue grabs and hides something??

Hover sounds good.

Advancement looks fine.

up to 2200 lb based on scaling the owlbear.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Updated.  CR 9?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 20, 2009)

Agreed to Hover and CR 9. They're about as nasty as a bone devil, I think.


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2009)

Looks good.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 21, 2009)

Looks fantastic to me.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

*Snake Grass*
AC:10 MV:0 HD:1+1 hp:15 #AT:1 Dmg:1 SA:Special poison SD:Multiple heads AL:N THAC0:18 

"The path winds beside the lake shore past stands of reeds and floating lilies. Here and there the path turns into a patch of mud and leaves. Suddenly, you are brought to an abrupt halt by the sound of hissing and rattling that comes from a patch of segmented reeds that overgrows the path."

This is a patch of snake grass. This weird animated grassy reed bears the tiny head of a snake at its tip that hisses and curls its tongue at intruders. Anyone trying to cut a path through them will be attacked by the elongating reeds. Every time 5 points of damage is inflicted, a reed will be severed and another segment will be revealed beneath with another snake head. The snake grass injects a weak poison that causes a cumulative -1 penalty to all rolls for one day. Save vs. poison at -2 for no damage. There are 18 reeds.

Originally appeared in I13 - Adventure Pack I (1987).


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## Cleon (Jul 28, 2010)

How is their "multiple heads" supposed to work? The wording is rather confusing, but I'm guessing they mean that it grows an additional head every time it takes 5 or more damage.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2010)

Yeah, a bit like a Lernaean hydra methinks.


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## Cleon (Jul 29, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yeah, a bit like a Lernaean hydra methinks.




Yes, that's the monster I was thinking of too!

So shall we start on the stats.

First question, how does it get 15 hit points with 1+1 HD?

If we give it 1 Hit Dice it'd need an extraordinarily high Constitution for those HP, so I'm thinking 2HD and Toughness as a bonus feat.


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2010)

Uh, first off, magical beast or plant?  

It's going to need a decent Con even with 2HD and Toughness, depending on the type.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2010)

I'm inclined to stick with the plant type.  To better fit it, we could say the tips of the reeds simply resemble snake heads.

Alternately, I could see these as aberrations with plantlike traits, perhaps created by the yuan-ti.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2010)

Hmm, or by medusas.   Well, I'm pretty much up in the air among the three options.  I guess aberration is slightly ahead of plant, but I don't mind much either way.


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## Cleon (Jul 30, 2010)

Shade said:


> I'm inclined to stick with the plant type.  To better fit it, we could say the tips of the reeds simply resemble snake heads.
> 
> Alternately, I could see these as aberrations with plantlike traits, perhaps created by the yuan-ti.




I prefer Plant for them too.

Getting some inspiration from the Hydra, Medium Viper and Tendriculos, hows about something like this:

*Snake Grass*
Medium Plant
Hit Dice: 2d8+6 (15 hp)
Attack: Bite +1 melee (1 plus poison)
Full Attack: 1+ bites +1 melee (1 plus poison)
Special Attacks: Poison, sprout heads
Special Defenses: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, plant traits, scent
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3?
Feats: Combat Reflexes (B), Weapon Finesse (B) ?


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2010)

Looks good so far, though I have a kind of far-out idea.  What about we make them a swarm of Tiny plants?  It's a patch of grass, so I have a hard time seeing it as a single plant.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> Looks good so far, though I have a kind of far-out idea.  What about we make them a swarm of Tiny plants?  It's a patch of grass, so I have a hard time seeing it as a single plant.




I like the idea of an immobile Swarm but I don't think it'd work well with the Snake Grass's ability to sprout multiple heads.

Cut the grass in one square of the Swarm and the grass blades in its other squares wouldn't sprout extra heads, since they haven't been severed.

Methinks we're better sticking to single monster.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2010)

I thought each reed sprouts the new head, not that a new reed grows up.


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## Cleon (Aug 1, 2010)

freyar said:


> I thought each reed sprouts the new head, not that a new reed grows up.




I think a new head forks off the severed reed, so you've got a "two heads on one stump" thing going on like a Lernean Hydra.

Still, the point is if it's a swarm the extra head would be in a particular square and presumably won't have any Reach, being Tiny, which would be awkward to adjudicate.

Keeping them a single monster just seems easier.


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2010)

A single monster with 18+ attacks, though?  That's going to be a super-pain to deal with, especially for something with 2HD.


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## Cleon (Aug 2, 2010)

freyar said:


> A single monster with 18+ attacks, though?  That's going to be a super-pain to deal with, especially for something with 2HD.




It gets an extra attack every time it takes 5+ damage, so an average plant can't grow more than two before it goes dying/dead.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2010)

Even so, it starts with 18 reeds!


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2010)

Yeah, this one is a bit of a mess.

We could go with a swarm, and simply increase the damage by 1 die each time it takes 5 points of damage to represent additional heads.

Or we could take a step back, and make it a single Diminutive creature with 1 head, and just let them cluster close together.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2010)

I think I prefer the swarm, but doing a Diminutive single version appeals too.


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## Cleon (Aug 5, 2010)

freyar said:


> Even so, it starts with 18 reeds!




It only has 1 attack to begin with though. Do you think each "reed" is a separate monster then?

Anyhow, I still don't like Swarm for them. They original makes attack rolls, and I'd like to keep that.

I suppose we could make them littler but with increased Reach so the "reeds" can reach into an adjacent square. Diminutive seems too small though, I wouldn't want to go below Tiny.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

How about we keep 'em Medium, but cluster the attacks like a medusa's "snakes" attack, and perhaps give it extended reach?   Maybe increase Dex a tad and give it Combat Reflexes for more AoOs?

Whenever the snake grass suffers 5 points of damage, it could gain a second "snakes" attack?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

Cleon said:


> It only has 1 attack to begin with though. Do you think each "reed" is a separate monster then?
> 
> Anyhow, I still don't like Swarm for them. They original makes attack rolls, and I'd like to keep that.
> 
> I suppose we could make them littler but with increased Reach so the "reeds" can reach into an adjacent square. Diminutive seems too small though, I wouldn't want to go below Tiny.




I certainly read the original monster as saying each reed has a bite attack and that there are 18 reeds.



Shade said:


> How about we keep 'em Medium, but cluster the attacks like a medusa's "snakes" attack, and perhaps give it extended reach?   Maybe increase Dex a tad and give it Combat Reflexes for more AoOs?
> 
> Whenever the snake grass suffers 5 points of damage, it could gain a second "snakes" attack?




That's a pretty good idea.  I'm not sure if 5 hp is still going to be the right threshold, but this is simple.  I wouldn't give it extended reach, since a Medium creature can reach adjacent squares, and I think the original could only bite critters actually in the grass.  We might boost the poison a little to account for multiple bites, too.


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## Cleon (Aug 6, 2010)

Shade said:


> How about we keep 'em Medium, but cluster the attacks like a medusa's "snakes" attack, and perhaps give it extended reach?   Maybe increase Dex a tad and give it Combat Reflexes for more AoOs?
> 
> Whenever the snake grass suffers 5 points of damage, it could gain a second "snakes" attack?




Sounds good.

Modifying my earlier rough draft:

*Snake Grass*
 Medium Plant
 Hit Dice: 2d8+6 (15 hp)
 Initiative: +0
 Speed: 0 ft. (immobile)
 Armor Class: 10, touch 10, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
 Attack: Snakes +1 melee (1 plus poison)
 Full Attack: Snakes +1 melee (1 plus poison)
 Space/Reach: 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison, pruned growth
 Special Defenses: All-around vision, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, plant traits, scent
 Saves: Fort +6, Ref +0, Will -1
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 16, Int --, Wis 8, Cha 3?
 Feats: Combat Reflexes (B), Weapon Finesse (B) ?     
Environment: ?
Organization: Solitary or bed (?)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: Incidental or none?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: —

*Pruned Growth (Ex):* Whenever a patch of snake grass has  taken 5 hp of  damage, its damaged reeds sprout new snake heads, which  increases the  damage of its snakes attack by an additional die (maximum  additional damage dice equals the HD of the patch of snake grass, so a  standard patch can grow up to 4d4 damage). Extra heads gained from  pruned growth wither and die within a day, returning the damage of the  snakes attack to its original amount.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2010)

Make damage 2d4?  Each 5 hp (or whatever amount we decide upon) increase by 1d4?


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2010)

2d4 damage seems right.

Pruned Growth (Ex): Whenever a patch of snake grass has taken X hp of damage, its damaged reeds sprout new snake heads, which increases the damage of its snakes attack by an additional die.

Hmm, a snake grass patch that survives multiple fights could have quite a few damage dice!


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## Cleon (Aug 7, 2010)

freyar said:


> 2d4 damage seems right.




It seems a bit high to me, but not so much I'd oppose it.



freyar said:


> Pruned Growth (Ex): Whenever a patch of snake grass has taken X hp of damage, its damaged reeds sprout new snake heads, which increases the damage of its snakes attack by an additional die.
> 
> Hmm, a snake grass patch that survives multiple fights could have quite a few damage dice!




Maybe make it Slashing damage?

I'd also apply a cap to the extra heads, maybe equal to its HD. I'm wondering whether a set value might be better though.

How much "snakes" damage should a Large or Huge patch of snake grass do?  If a Large patch does, say, 2d6 damage and has 4-7 HD, that means it  could theoretically do up to 9d6 damage, which seems too high to me.

I'm also thinking the extra heads should wither and drop off after a while, like a hydras.

Something like...

*Pruned Growth (Ex):* Whenever a patch of snake grass has taken 5 hp of  damage, its damaged reeds sprout new snake heads, which increases the  damage of its snakes attack by an additional die (maximum additional damage dice equals the HD of the patch of snake grass, so a standard patch can grow up to 4d4 damage). Extra heads gained from pruned growth wither and die within a day, returning the damage of the snakes attack to its original amount.


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## Shade (Aug 9, 2010)

That seems reasonable.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> That seems reasonable.




Good, I'll fold it into *post #944*.

Are we keeping them mindless or giving them a point of Int like regular snakes?

What poison are we giving them? The original's cumulative -1 to rolls is a bit fiddly, so I'm thinking a small amount (say, 1d3) of Dex and/or Str damage.


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## freyar (Aug 10, 2010)

Just make it "slashing" damage with the 5hp, and it's set.


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## Shade (Aug 10, 2010)

How about 1d3 Dex primary, 1d3 Str secondary?

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2010)

That looks pretty good.

Temperate and warm land?
bed (2-8)
CR 1
I think we can take the question mark off the Cha.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

CR is tricky on this one. It has enough poison potential to warrant a higher CR, but since it is immobile, its rather limited.  So I supposed I could see CR 1.

The rest sounds good.

Snake grass grows to a height of about 4 feet?


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## Cleon (Aug 11, 2010)

freyar said:


> That looks pretty good.
> 
> Temperate and warm land?
> bed (2-8)
> ...




That all looks reasonable.

As for the height, I was thinking snake grass should get up 6+ feet to account for the 10-ft reach.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2010)

When did we agree on extended reach?  That really doesn't sound right for these.  5 ft reach is surely enough.


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## Shade (Aug 11, 2010)

Sounds good!  Updated.   I think it's finished.

Next!

*Spyder Plant*
AC:8 MV:6 HD:1+1 hp:5 #AT:1 Dmg:1 SAoison (save +2) SD:Nil AL:N THAC0:18 
Just beyond the doorway is a spyder plant in a pot hanging in the shadows overhead. Two spyder plant shoots attack the first character to walk through the doorway. The two shoots are attached by vines to the mother plant, which cannot move.

Originally appeared in I13 - Adventure Pack I (1987).


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## freyar (Aug 12, 2010)

A little different than the spider plants my parents have. 

Not a lot to go on here.  The only thing is really the poison: just base it on a 1HD monstrous spider?


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

freyar said:


> When did we agree on extended reach?  That really doesn't sound right for these.  5 ft reach is surely enough.




Unless my memory deceives me, Shade thought it would help compensate for their immobility.

Anyhow, the snake grass look done to me.


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## Cleon (Aug 12, 2010)

Shade said:


> Sounds good!  Updated.   I think it's finished.
> 
> Next!
> 
> ...




So if I understand correctly it's a giant arachnid version of the *Lamb of Tartary*?

There's a central plant which produces mobile spyder-shoots attached to their parent plant by a tether.

The listed stats appear to be for the shoots rather than the actual plant.

So, do we stat up the plant and the shoots separately?

What AC and hp do we give the tether, and what effect does severing it have (presumably it kills the spyder-shoot, but is this immediately fatal? 

Does the tether have a much better AC that the shoot (being thin, agile and thus hard to hit)?

It'd be easier if damage to the tether just counts against the shoot's hit points.

I suppose we could treat the shoots as _very_ long tentacles whose "biting end" can move 20 ft. with a move action?


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## freyar (Aug 14, 2010)

They're also clearly a joke version of this.

My tendency would be to make the shoots an attack with extended reach, something like a roper's strands (but with different effect, of course).  I wouldn't give the base plant too many more HD, since they don't seem like they're supposed to be very tough.


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## Cleon (Aug 15, 2010)

freyar said:


> They're also clearly a joke version of this.
> 
> My tendency would be to make the shoots an attack with extended reach, something like a roper's strands (but with different effect, of course).  I wouldn't give the base plant too many more HD, since they don't seem like they're supposed to be very tough.




Giving the shoots a move speed seems a better fit to the original than Extended Reach.

I quite like the idea of making them semi-autonomous, maybe allowing them to make multiple bites as a standard attack like the SRD Hydra's multiple heads? Although if we assign the shoots a separate stat-block we wouldn't need to do that.

At the very least, the shoots ought to be something that can be separately targeted, like a giant octopus's tentacles.


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## Shade (Aug 16, 2010)

Here's a precedent we can borrow:

Tendrils (Ex): A draknor has 30 tendrils that it uses to feed on heat sources. These snaky tendrils move independently of the draknor’s body, at a speed of 40 feet per round, and burrow through solid rock at a speed of 30 feet per round. The ends of these tendrils can reach up to a mile away from the draknor’s main body. If one or more of a draknor’s tendrils taps into a source of continual heat (such as magma), the draknor heals 3 points of damage per round (as fast healing). A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray. 

An opponent can attack a draknor’s tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tendrils have 10 hit points each. Severing one of a draknor’s tendrils deals 5 points of damage to the creature. If 10 or more tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2 points per round, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1 point per round. These tendrils do not regrow without magical healing, and if all are severed, the draknor dies of starvation in two weeks.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 16, 2010)

Shade said:


> Here's a precedent we can borrow:
> 
> Tendrils (Ex): A draknor has 30 tendrils that it uses to feed on heat sources. These snaky tendrils move independently of the draknor’s body, at a speed of 40 feet per round, and burrow through solid rock at a speed of 30 feet per round. The ends of these tendrils can reach up to a mile away from the draknor’s main body. If one or more of a draknor’s tendrils taps into a source of continual heat (such as magma), the draknor heals 3 points of damage per round (as fast healing). A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.
> 
> An opponent can attack a draknor’s tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tendrils have 10 hit points each. Severing one of a draknor’s tendrils deals 5 points of damage to the creature. If 10 or more tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2 points per round, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1 point per round. These tendrils do not regrow without magical healing, and if all are severed, the draknor dies of starvation in two weeks.




That's pretty much what I was thinking of, we just need to answer the questions:


How long is the tether?
How many hit points does it have and does it damage the plant if severed?
Does it regrow if severed?
...and put them in something like.

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* A spyder plant has [two?] shoots it uses to attack, feed and defend itself. Each shoot is a vaguely spider-like mass of fronds and tendrils with hollow thorns for "fangs" which is attached to the parent plant by a long tendril. These shoots move independently of the spyder plant's body,  at a speed of 20 feet per round, and have a Climb speed of 20 feet per round. The shoots can reach up to *X* away from the plant's main body. The spyder plant can make a [bite?] attack with each of its shoots as a standard action.

An opponent can attack a spyder plant's shoots with a sunder attempt as if  they were weapons, each shoot has *Y* hit points each.  Severing one of a spyder plant's shoots deals *Y/2* points of damage to the plant. Severed tendrils regrow in *Z* days.


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## Shade (Aug 17, 2010)

A "tendril" attack is common enough on attack lines that I suggest we use it instead of "bite".  Two shoots seem fine.  I think 60 feet max.  

Since the main plant only has 5 hit points, I'd make the tendrils 2 hp to sever, and not have any damage dealt to the main plant.  I'd let 'em regrow in 1 week.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 17, 2010)

Shade said:


> A "tendril" attack is common enough on attack lines that I suggest we use it instead of "bite".  Two shoots seem fine.  I think 60 feet max.
> 
> Since the main plant only has 5 hit points, I'd make the tendrils 2 hp to sever, and not have any damage dealt to the main plant.  I'd let 'em regrow in 1 week.




I thought the 1+1 HD original stat blocks represented the shoots, why else do they have a move listed?

i.e. I was thinking about making them 2 Hit Dice plants with 5 hp shoots.


----------



## Shade (Aug 19, 2010)

2 HD w/ 5 hp shoots works, but I still would rather not deal damage to the main plant.


----------



## freyar (Aug 19, 2010)

Shade said:


> 2 HD w/ 5 hp shoots works, but I still would rather not deal damage to the main plant.



Sounds good to me.


----------



## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> Sounds good to me.




Me too.

We'd better add stats for bigger plants too.

Revising...

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* A spyder plant has two  shoots it uses to attack, feed and defend itself. Each shoot is a  vaguely spider-like mass of fronds and tendrils with hollow thorns for  "fangs" which is attached to the parent plant by a long tendril. These  shoots move independently of the spyder plant's body,  at a speed of 20  feet per round, and have a Climb speed of 20 feet per round. The shoots  can reach up to [*40 ft.?*] away from the plant's main body. The spyder plant can make a tendril attack with each of its shoots as a standard action.

An opponent can attack a spyder plant's shoots with a sunder attempt as if  they were weapons, each shoot has 5 hit points each.  Severing one of a spyder plant's shoots does no damage to the plant. Severed tendrils regrow in 1 week.

A [*Large**-sized?*] spyder plant has [*four**?*] shoots with [*10**?*]hitpoints that can reach up to [*60 ft.?*], a [*Huge**-sized?*] spyder plant has [*six**?*] shoots with [*15**?*]hitpoints that can reach up to [*80 ft.?*], and a [*Gargantuan**-sized?*] spyder plant has [*eight?*] shoots with [*20**?*] hitpoints that can reach up to [*120 ft.?*].

Well also need some stats for it. Here's a start:

*Spyder Plant*
Medium Plant
Hit Dice: 2d8+2 (11 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 0 ft. (immobile)
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+1
Attack: 2 tendrils +3 melee (1d4-2 plus poison)
Full Attack: 2 tendrils +3 melee (1d4-2 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./0 ft. (40 ft. with shoots)
Special Attacks: Poison, spyder-shoots
Special Defenses: Low-light vision?, plant traits, tremorsense?
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 7, Dex 15, Con 12, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
Skills: —
Feats:Combat Reflexes (B), Weapon Finesse (B) *?*
Environment: ?
Organization: ?
Challenge Rating: ?
Treasure: 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items ?
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X-X HD (Large); X-X HD (Huge); X-X HD (Gargantuan) ?
Level Adjustment: —


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## freyar (Aug 20, 2010)

This all seems pretty reasonable.  Just the poison, then?  Maybe

Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 12, initial damage 1d4 Str, secondary damage 1d4 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Just arbitarily took the poison damages from the Medium monstrous spider.


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## Cleon (Aug 20, 2010)

freyar said:


> This all seems pretty reasonable.  Just the poison, then?  Maybe
> 
> Poison (Ex): Injury, Fortitude DC 12, initial damage 1d4 Str, secondary damage 1d4 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> Just arbitarily took the poison damages from the Medium monstrous spider.




I was thinking 1d3 like the Small Monstrous Spider, since the original basically has the stats of two small spiders on tethers (they may be called "Large Spiders" in AD&D but they're smaller than Man-sized).

Also, I was sure I put 1d4 for the tendril damage, but it came out 2d4 *and* I forgot to include the Strength penalty. Have to fix it.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2010)

What about 1d3/1d4 as a compromise?  They're 2HD, which should make them slightly tougher than the Small monstrous spiders.


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## Cleon (Aug 21, 2010)

freyar said:


> What about 1d3/1d4 as a compromise?  They're 2HD, which should make them slightly tougher than the Small monstrous spiders.




I don't mind 1d4/1d4 Str damage for the poison. The more the nastier.


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## Shade (Aug 23, 2010)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 24, 2010)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




Blast, I forgot to apply the Str penalty to its Grapple too. It should have Grapple -1, not +1.

Let's fill in the other blanks.

The original was in a pot in a dungeon, showing they can live underground, but there's also something about them that says "Tropical Jungle" to me.

*Environment:* Warm forests or underground ?

Number-wise, I imagine they propagate using *stolons* - the "spider shoot" roots itself and becomes a new plant, maybe it sometimes separates from its parent and wanders away before rooting? 

In either case, should they form colonies of some sort like Monstrous Spiders? I'd like to change the name though.

*Organization:* Solitary; patch (2-5) or web (6-16) ?

As for Challenge Rating, I'm thinking CR 1, the same as a pair of Small Monstrous Spiders.

*Challenge Rating:* 1

Advancement following the usual "double HD" schema?
*
Advancement:* 3-4 HD (Large); 5-8 HD (Huge); 9-16 HD (Gargantuan)


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## Shade (Aug 24, 2010)

All looks good.  Updated.

A spyder plant is x feet in diameter and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 25, 2010)

4 ft and 20 lb???

The bit about stolons is how the houseplant reproduces, at least.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

That seems reasonable to me.


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

freyar said:


> 4 ft and 20 lb???
> 
> The bit about stolons is how the houseplant reproduces, at least.




Isn't that a bit light for a Medium sized creature? I'd prefer 40 to 50 pounds.

Shall we add a bit about stolons to its description?

Speaking of which..._Spider-like creatures formed out of leaves and fronds, with sharp thorns for fangs. They are attached to a fern-like plant by long creepers._

Spider plants are carnivorous plant that use their mobile, arachnoid shoots to prey on animals. These spider-shoots may resemble individual creatures, but they are merely appendages of the main plant. Spider plants are mindless and attack anything that appears edible.

Spider plants reproduce by turning their spider-like shoots into reproductive creepers known as stolons. The shoot buries itself into the soil and grows into a new plant, then the creeper attaching it to its parent withers and dies. Occasionally, a spider plant will separate one or more of its spider-shoots to colonize new territory, but the reproductive shoot must find suitable soil with a few hours or it will die.

A typical spider plant is about 4 feet in diameter, with two spider-shoots about 2 feet across. The entire plant weighs 40 or 50 pounds.​The combat entry looks fine as is.


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## Shade (Aug 25, 2010)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Cleon (Aug 25, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.  Finished?




Looks fine.

I'm glad you remembered to change all those spiders into spyders.

EDIT: Hold on, It's got *Special Defenses* instead of *Special Qualities* - I must be reading too many AD&D monsters recently!

EDITED EDIT: If I'm feeling energetic I might stat up the Advanced versions.


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## Shade (Aug 26, 2010)

_Spyder plant, spyder plant, does whatever a spyder can._

Fixed.

Here's the next one...

*Topiary Plant*
AC:7 MV:12 HD:3+2 hp:14 #AT:1-4 Dmg:2-5 each SAoison (save +4) SD:Shape change AL:N THAC0:16 
Here is an oddity among the wilds, a small thorny bush trimmed to resemble a dog. This is actually a living creature and if the party looks away, when they look back the bush appears to have moved, although at the moment it is motionless.

This is a topiary plant, a strange scavenger that can adopt the shape of anything it consumes, gaining 1 hit point per hit die of its prey, The plant's hit dice equal one fourth of its hit points. A topiary plant may grow no larger than 0 hit dice. [Editor: Not a scanning mistake, the text really says "no larger than 0 hit dice"! I'm guessing this is supposed to be "10".] It takes one turn for a topiary plant to alter its shape. This plant is non-aggressive, preferring dead prey to living. Its thorns exude a weak poison (save at +4 to avoid its effects).

Any druid with a speak with plants spell may befriend this plant for one day.

Originally appeared in I13 - Adventure Pack I (1987).

We need to make sure to differentiate them enough from the Topiary Guardians in MM3.


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## freyar (Aug 27, 2010)

No joke about the topiary guardians and these.

Should we change "growing 1 hp per HD of the prey" into something like the barghest?


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## Cleon (Aug 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> _Spyder plant, spyder plant, does whatever a spyder can._
> 
> Fixed.




Hold on a minute, where's its Space/Reach disappeared to!

Space/Reach: 5 ft/0 ft. (5 ft. reach with 40 ft. long spyder-shoots)

Also, the spyder-shoot's description has "each shoot has 5 hit points each". That seems one too many eaches, let's cut out the last one![FONT=&quot][/FONT]


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## Cleon (Aug 27, 2010)

Shade said:


> We need to make sure to differentiate them enough from the Topiary Guardians in MM3.






freyar said:


> No joke about the topiary guardians and these.




If I could remember what the MM3 Topiary Guardians were like that might mean something!



freyar said:


> Should we change "growing 1 hp per HD of the prey" into something like the barghest?




Yes that'd make sense. Unlike the barghest it doesn't need to kill and eat live humanoids, since it's a scavenger, but we can adapt the basic SA.

It's also got that Shape Change ability, which seems to be a _polymorph_ like effect that allows it to take the shape of any creature it has eaten.

Apart from being a Medium Plant there's not much else to go on. It isn't even given an Intelligence score!

It's unlikely to be mindless, since it needs to understand the traits of creatures it copies, but I can't see it being terribly smart.

Maybe Int 6 or so? With Wisdom 12 and Charisma 5?

Physically, its 2-5 damage attacks suggest it ain't that strong, maybe Str 13?

I'd compensate by giving it a good Constitution, say 14-15.

Dex-wise, I'd suspect most or all of its armour is from thick bark and thorns.

Putting that together...

Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 5, NA +3

Hmm, well it's a start.


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## Cleon (Aug 28, 2010)

Oh, and I did feel energetic and do the Advanced stats for the Topiary Plant. I did them with standard size advancement and wasn't that pleased with the results, so I did them again with an ability Advancement more akin to a Monstrous Spider: +4 Str and +4 Con per size category but no reduction in Dex, I kept the +4 Con because they have far less HD than an equivalent sized Monstrous Spider and, well, Plants should be tough.

I liked the "Custom Job" results a lot more:

 *Standard Advancement*

*Large Spyder Plant*
Large Plant
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+9 (24 hp)
*Initiative:* +1
*Speed:* 0 ft. (immobile)
*Armor Class:* 12 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+8
*Attack:* 2 tendrils +3 melee (1d6+2 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* 2 tendrils +3 melee (1d6+2 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft/0 ft. (5 ft. reach with 60 ft. long spyder-shoots)
*Special Attacks:* Poison, spyder-shoots
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, plant traits, tremorsense 60 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 13, Con 16, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or underground
*Organization:* Solitary; patch (2-5) or web (6-16)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4 HD (Large); 5-8 HD (Huge); 9-16 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 1d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* Reaches up to 60 feet away from the plant's main body, each shoot has 10 hit points.

*Huge Spyder Plant*
Huge Plant
*Hit Dice:* 5d8+25 (47 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 0 ft. (immobile)
*Armor Class:* 13 (-2 size, +5 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+17
*Attack:* 6 tendrils +7 melee (1d8+6 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* 6 tendrils +7 melee (1d8+6 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft/0 ft. (10 ft. reach with 80 ft. long spyder-shoots)
*Special Attacks:* Poison, spyder-shoots
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, plant traits, tremorsense 60 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +1, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 23, Dex 11, Con 20, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* —
*Environment:* Warm forests or underground
*Organization:* Solitary; patch (2-5) or web (6-16)
*Challenge Rating:* 4
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 6-8 HD (Huge); 9-16 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial damage 1d8 Str, secondary damage 1d8 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* Reaches up to 80 feet away from the plant's main body, each shoot has 15 hit points.

*Gargantuan Spyder Plant*
Gargantuan Plant
*Hit Dice:* 9d8+63 (103 hp)
*Initiative:* +0
*Speed:* 0 ft. (immobile)
*Armor Class:* 15 (-4 size, +9 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+28
*Attack:* 8 tendrils +12 melee (2d6+10 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* 8 tendrils +12 melee (2d6+10 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft/0 ft. (15 ft. reach with 120 ft. long spyder-shoots)
*Special Attacks:* Poison, spyder-shoots
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, plant traits, tremorsense 60 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +13, Ref +3, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 31, Dex 11, Con 24, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* —
*Environment:* Warm forests or underground
*Organization:* Solitary; patch (2-5) or web (6-16)
*Challenge Rating:* 6
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 10-16 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 21, initial damage 2d6 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* Reaches up to 120 feet away from the plant's main body, each shoot has 20 hit points. 

*Custom Advancement*
*I prefer Strength and Dexterity Advancement with the same steps as a Monstrous Spider, as follows:*

*Large Spyder Plant*
Large Plant
*Hit Dice:* 3d8+9 (22 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 0 ft. (immobile)
*Armor Class:* 13 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 11
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +2/+6
*Attack:* 4 tendrils +3 melee (1d6 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* 4 tendrils +3 melee (1d6 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 10 ft/0 ft. (5 ft. reach with 60 ft. long spyder-shoots)
*Special Attacks:* Poison, spyder-shoots
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, plant traits, tremorsense 60 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 11, Dex 15, Con 16, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or underground
*Organization:* Solitary; patch (2-5) or web (6-16)
*Challenge Rating:* 2
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 4 HD (Large); 5-8 HD (Huge); 9-16 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 14, initial damage 1d6 Str, secondary damage 1d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* Reaches up to 60 feet away from the plant's main body, each shoot has 10 hit points.

*Huge Spyder Plant*
Huge Plant
*Hit Dice:* 5d8+25 (47 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 0 ft. (immobile)
*Armor Class:* 15 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 13
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +3/+13
*Attack:* 6 tendrils +3 melee (1d8+2 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* 6 tendrils +3 melee (1d8+2 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 15 ft/0 ft. (10 ft. reach with 80 ft. long spyder-shoots)
*Special Attacks:* Poison, spyder-shoots
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, plant traits, tremorsense 60 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +9, Ref +3, Will +1
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 15, Con 20, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or underground
*Organization:* Solitary; patch (2-5) or web (6-16)
*Challenge Rating:* 3
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 6-8 HD (Huge); 9-16 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 17, initial damage 1d8 Str, secondary damage 1d8 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based.

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* Reaches up to 80 feet away from the plant's main body, each shoot has 15 hit points.

*Gargantuan Spyder Plant*
Gargantuan Plant
*Hit Dice:* 9d8+63 (103 hp)
*Initiative:* +2
*Speed:* 0 ft. (immobile)
*Armor Class:* 17 (-4 size, +2 Dex, +9 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 15
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +6/+22
*Attack:* 8 tendrils +6 melee (2d6+4 plus poison)
*Full Attack:* 8 tendrils +6 melee (2d6+4 plus poison)
*Space/Reach:* 20 ft/0 ft. (15 ft. reach with 120 ft. long spyder-shoots)
*Special Attacks:* Poison, spyder-shoots
*Special Qualities:* Low-light vision, plant traits, tremorsense 60 ft.
*Saves:* Fort +13, Ref +5, Will +3
*Abilities:* Str 19, Dex 15, Con 24, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 2
*Skills:* —
*Feats:* Combat Reflexes (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
*Environment:* Warm forests or underground
*Organization:* Solitary; patch (2-5) or web (6-16)
*Challenge Rating:* 5
*Treasure:* 1/10 coins; 50% goods; 50% items
*Alignment:* Always neutral
*Advancement:* 10-16 HD (Gargantuan)
*Level Adjustment:* —

*Poison (Ex): *Injury, Fortitude DC 21, initial damage 2d6 Str, secondary damage 2d6 Str. The save DC is Constitution-based. 

*Spyder-Shoots (Ex):* Reaches up to 120 feet away from the plant's main body, each shoot has 20 hit points.


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## freyar (Aug 29, 2010)

Energetic doesn't even come close to describing you, Cleon!

Your proposed abilities for the topiary plant are fine with me.  The change shape, though, I was thinking of being as part of the "barghest advancement."  Each time it eats something completely, it advances and changes shape.  What do you think?


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## Cleon (Aug 29, 2010)

freyar said:


> Energetic doesn't even come close to describing you, Cleon!




Those were easy compared to the Animal Generals' followers.



freyar said:


> Your proposed abilities for the topiary plant are fine with me.  The change shape, though, I was thinking of being as part of the "barghest advancement."  Each time it eats something completely, it advances and changes shape.  What do you think?




Well it says they are "a strange scavenger that can adopt the shape of anything it consumes" which to me suggests it can switch between the shapes of its victims. If it were only the latest victim's shape then I'd have thought it would says something like "a strange scavenger that adopts the shape of the last creature it consumes".

Besides, isn't giving it multiple shapes more interesting?


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

Mmaaaayyyy-be.  The trouble is figuring out which shapes to allow for a "typical" topiary plant.  Any (animal, magical beast, ??) the same size category?  Animals typical to the area?


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> Mmaaaayyyy-be.  The trouble is figuring out which shapes to allow for a "typical" topiary plant.  Any (animal, magical beast, ??) the same size category?  Animals typical to the area?




Well the original creature seems to be imitating a dog or wolf, so I'd use that for the listed creature.

The original creature doesn't seem to gain the attacks or movement rates of the copied creatures, just their general shape, so if we keep that it won't be a big deal since it's mostly cosmetic (maybe a Disguise check to pretend to be its prey?).

Unless the "#Att: 1-4" means it gains between 1 to 4 of its 1d4+1 damage attacks depending on how many natural attacks the creature it's shaped like has?


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## freyar (Aug 30, 2010)

So something not as complete as alternate form or change shape.  Sure.  I can go along with that.

I doubt the Disguise check will be very good.  It's a plant pretending to be an animal, after all, and it still looks like a bush.


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## Shade (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> I doubt the Disguise check will be very good.  It's a plant pretending to be an animal, after all, and it still looks like a bush.




Indeed!  It's almost comical to imagine it smug and self-satisfied with its "disguise".  

We might borrow and modify the imperfect change shape from the lesser ghul...

Diminished Change Shape (Su): A lesser ghul can assume the form of any Small, Medium, or Large humanoid, giant, or genie. This works exactly as the change shape special ability, except that the ghul cannot transform the appearance of its feet. The ghul therefore only gains a bonus of +6 to Disguise checks when using this ability to disguise itself.


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## Cleon (Aug 30, 2010)

freyar said:


> So something not as complete as alternate form or change shape.  Sure.  I can go along with that.
> 
> I doubt the Disguise check will be very good.  It's a plant pretending to be an animal, after all, and it still looks like a bush.




Yes, I was only thinking of +4 or +5, half the bonus of a Mimic's mimicry or a _disguise self_ spell.


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## freyar (Aug 31, 2010)

Yes, just a +4 to the Disguise check.  And probably no ranks.


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## Shade (Aug 31, 2010)

I agree.

Added to Homebrews.


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## Cleon (Aug 31, 2010)

freyar said:


> Yes, just a +4 to the Disguise check.  And probably no ranks.




That's OK by me.

*Diminished Disguise Appearance (Su):* A topiary beast can imitate the appearance of any creature it has eaten. This works like the _disguise self_ spell, except the beast retains its original size and can imitate any living creature. The topiary beast's appearance retains vegetative features (vine-like fingers, thorny hair, a greenish complexion, et cetera), so only gains a +4  bonus to Disguise checks when using this ability to disguise itself.


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## freyar (Sep 1, 2010)

Looks fine.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

It looks good, but I'd suggest we drop "Diminished" from the ability name since no "Disguise Appearance" ability exists.


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> It looks good, but I'd suggest we drop "Diminished" from the ability name since no "Disguise Appearance" ability exists.




I like the "Resemble Shape" Shade used earlier, shall we use that?

Revising...

*Resemble Shape (Su):* A topiary beast can imitate the appearance of any creature it has eaten. This works like the _disguise self_  spell, except the beast retains its original size and can resemble any  living creature. The topiary beast's appearance retains vegetative  features (vine-like fingers, thorny hair, a greenish complexion, et  cetera), so it only gains a +4  bonus to Disguise checks when using this  ability to disguise itself.     

What are we going to do about the 1-4 number of attacks?

I'm thinking it'd be easier to just give it extra bite attacks as it gains Hit Dice.

Maybe one more bite per 2 Hit Dice, so it has 2 bites at 5 HD, 3 bites at 7 HD and 4 bites at its maximum size of 9 HD?


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

Lookin' good.

Honestly, additional bite attacks make no sense to me, unless it is resembling a creature with mulitple mouths.   Can we just stick with a single bite?   Or perhaps allow it to mimic claws, gores, etc. as it advances?


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## Cleon (Sep 1, 2010)

Shade said:


> Lookin' good.
> 
> Honestly, additional bite attacks make no sense to me, unless it is resembling a creature with mulitple mouths.   Can we just stick with a single bite?   Or perhaps allow it to mimic claws, gores, etc. as it advances?




Well I was thinking the additional attacks might _*resemble*_ clawed hands, antlers or whatever, but are technically bites, but upon reflection it doesn't make much difference if the damage is the same.

How about this...

*Resemble Shape (Su):* A topiary beast can imitate the appearance of any creature it has eaten. This works like the _disguise self_   spell, except the beast retains its original size and can resemble any   living creature. The topiary beast's appearance retains vegetative   features (vine-like fingers, thorny hair, a greenish complexion, et   cetera), so it only gains a +4  bonus to Disguise checks when using this   ability to disguise itself.     

An advanced topiary beast can use resemble shape to give itself an additional secondary attack for every 2 hit dice it gains (e.g. 1 secondary attack at 5-6 HD, 2 at 7-8 HD and 3 at 9 HD). These attacks can be any natural weapon possessed by a creature the topiary beast has eaten, but the attack always does 1d4 damage, or 1d6 for a Large topiary beast.


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## Shade (Sep 1, 2010)

That seems a good solution.


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## Cleon (Sep 2, 2010)

Shade said:


> That seems a good solution.




Let's plug it in then.

I'm wondering whether we should add a note as to the _condition_ of the creature it has eaten, e.g..

Hold on, it's a Topiary _*Plant*_, not a Topiary _*Beast*_. Better change that!

...I just liked the name Topiary Beast better, so it got stuck in my mind. If I recall correctly it's already used in 3E, alas.

*



			Resemble Shape (Su):
		
Click to expand...


*


> A topiary plant can imitate the appearance of any creature it has eaten. The topiary plant need not have killed the creature itself, but if the creature has been dead for more than two weeks it is too decayed for the plant to mimic its living appearance. This works like the _disguise self_ spell, except the topiary plant retains its original size and can resemble any living creature. The topiary plant's appearance retains vegetative features (vine-like fingers, thorny hair, a greenish complexion, et cetera), so it only gains a +4 bonus to Disguise checks when using this ability to disguise itself.
> 
> An advanced topiary plant can use resemble shape to give itself an additional secondary attack for every 2 hit dice it gains (e.g. 1 secondary attack at 5-6 HD, 2 at 7-8 HD and 3 at 9 HD). These attacks can be any natural weapon possessed by a creature the topiary plant has eaten, but the attack always does 1d4 damage, or 1d6 for a Large topiary plant.





Also, since it's a scavenger, I fancy adding Scent to help it sniff out food.

That leaves the poison.

It doesn't say what it does except that it's "weak", but AD&D poison is usually lethal. How about 1d2/1d2 or 1d3/1d3 Con damage? Maybe include a -2 racial penalty?

e.g.:

*Poison (Ex):* All a topiary plant's natural attacks are coated in a weak poison that does 1d3 Con damage as initial and secondary damage (DC X Fortitude save). The save DC is Constitution-based and includes a -2 racial penalty.


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## Shade (Sep 7, 2010)

Smells good. 

Updated.


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Smells good.
> 
> Updated.




Hmm, would it be better with "An advanced topiary plant can use resemble shape to give itself an additional secondary attack for every 2 hit dice it has advanced (e.g. 1 secondary attack at 5-6 HD, 2 at 7-8 HD and 3 at 9 HD). These  attacks can be any natural weapon possessed by a creature the topiary  plant has eaten, but the attack always does 1d4 damage, or 1d6 for a  Large topiary plant."?

Should we move that paragraph to an "Advanced Topiary Plant" entry?

Skills and feats next methinks...

Listen, Move Silently and Spot like a Phantom Fungus or Tendriculos?

2 ranks apiece?

Alertness and Iron Will?


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## Shade (Sep 8, 2010)

Yes, I prefer the Advanced section as well.

As usual, I don't care for Iron Will.  You like all creatures to be mentally-fortified powerhouses, don't you?  

If we give it a save-booster, I'd prefer Lighnting Reflexes.  However, I'd actually prefer Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus to either of those.


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## Cleon (Sep 8, 2010)

Shade said:


> Yes, I prefer the Advanced section as well.
> 
> As usual, I don't care for Iron Will.  You like all creatures to be mentally-fortified powerhouses, don't you?




More like I don't want then to be weak-minded pushovers.

Actually I was thinking there seems to be a trend for Plant monsters to have Iron Will, like the Shambling Mound and Tendriculos, so fancied the Topiary Plant following suit.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.



Shade said:


> If we give it a save-booster, I'd prefer Lighnting Reflexes.  However, I'd actually prefer Improved Initiative or Weapon Focus to either of those.




Of those three Weapon Focus is my preferred one. They don't strike me as speedy, agile creatures.

Besides, it goes with them being shaped like wolves since the SRD Wolf has WF (bite).


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2010)

Admit it.  You've got Iron Will posters on your bedroom wall, and once followed them on their Epic Will tour.  Didn't ya?  

Updated.

Shapechanger subtype?

Environment: Any forests?

Organization: Solitary or garden (2-x)?

Challenge Rating: 2?

Treasure: None?

Alignment: Always neutral?

Advancement: x

A typical topiary plant is about x feet tall/x feet in diameter. The plant weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2010)

Yes, yes, garden (2-8), CR 2, yes, yes.

4-6 HD (Medium), 7-10 HD (Large)?

And Cleon can do the size/weight, since he likes to so much.


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## Cleon (Sep 10, 2010)

Shade said:


> Admit it.  You've got Iron Will posters on your bedroom wall, and once followed them on their Epic Will tour.  Didn't ya?




Hey, Iron Will are the best band ever. Their so-called rivals suck. Lightning Reflexes are all flash, and their lyrics have none of the depth of Will. As for Great Fortitude, everyone knows they're too square to be any good, might as well be a Christian Rock group.



Shade said:


> http://www.enworld.org/forum/5304062-post14.htmlShapechanger subtype?




I doubt their Resemble Shape is good enough for them to count as Shapechangers, but I'll go along with that subtype if you both want it.



Shade said:


> Environment: Any forests?




I was thinking "Any land" or maybe "Any land except mountains"



Shade said:


> Organization: Solitary or garden (2-x)?




How about "hedge (2-8)" instead of garden?



Shade said:


> Challenge Rating: 2?
> 
> Treasure: None?
> 
> Alignment: Always neutral?




That all looks reasonable.



Shade said:


> Advancement: x




I'd fancy having them grow up to Huge size.

*Advancement:* 4-5 HD (Medium), 6-11 HD (Large); 12-18 HD (Huge) ?



Shade said:


> A typical topiary plant is about x feet tall/x feet in diameter. The plant weighs x pounds.




How's this:

A typical topiary plant usually resembles an animal between 5 and 8 feet long, although its basic form is a thorny bush about 4 feet across. The plant weighs 100 pounds.


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2010)

Updated.

Feel free to expand on the nearly-nonexistent flavor text.


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## Cleon (Sep 11, 2010)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Feel free to expand on the nearly-nonexistent flavor text.




That'll have to wait 'til the morrow.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2010)

Well, seems quite done otherwise.  Not a terribly inspiring critter.


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## Shade (Sep 14, 2010)

freyar said:


> Well, seems quite done otherwise.  Not a terribly inspiring critter.




We need a few of those every now and then to balance the transient golems and mold wyrms.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2010)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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