# Orville: New Horizons (Spoilers)



## Stalker0 (Jun 3, 2022)

Just saw the first episode of the new season. Its pretty crazy that the show that started out as "Star Trek with fart jokes" has become the show willing to talk about betrayal and suicide. As Brave New Worlds gives us back the hopeful and optimistic future, I appreciate that while the Orville shows us a "better" humanity, it is still a society grounded in many of the same problems we still face today, and has really become a mature depiction of some really important topics.

I pretty solid opener, I'm really looking forward to more.


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## Mort (Jun 3, 2022)

I like the episode and it was mostly solid, though (and I'll use spoilers since we are early in the thread):



Spoiler



I wish the writers had Isaac kill himself later in the episode, when it happened with SO MUCH time left it was 100% obvious they'd tech him back by the end



Even with that it was decent and It is (as mentioned above) amazing that "the fart jokes show" is (and has) tackled issues more sensitive than Trek does, and has done it well.


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## aco175 (Jun 3, 2022)

Looks like season 3 is only on Hulu where I live.


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## Mort (Jun 3, 2022)

aco175 said:


> Looks like season 3 is only on Hulu where I live.




In the US, their deal is exclusively with Hulu (unsure of outside the US).


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## Mercurius (Jun 3, 2022)

I just started season 1 and am mixed. On one hand, it is kind of fun. On the other hand, it sort of feels like silly Star Trek fan fiction. And more so, almost all of the ideas were less facsimiles of Star Trek stuff. I've heard it gets better, but...


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## Umbran (Jun 3, 2022)

I'm sorry, but Charlie struck me as... Racist Wesley Crusher.

I was disappointed in an aspect of the episode - Isaac's role in events was repeatedly misrepresented, and nobody really pushed back on it.  Isaac _did not choose_ to betray the Union. 

It is natural for people to think Isaac did so, and to have fear, and to rest their anger on him.  For none of the bridge crew to go, "Wait, that's not what happened..." I find problematic.


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## Umbran (Jun 3, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> I just started season 1 and am mixed. On one hand, it is kind of fun. On the other hand, it sort of feels like silly Star Trek fan fiction. And more so, almost all of the ideas were less facsimiles of Star Trek stuff. I've heard it gets better, but...




Well, I've read that the first season is loaded with things Seth McFarlane intended for actual Trek scripts.  
And yes, it does get better, pretty quickly.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 4, 2022)

The first episode of this season was certainly very different from the first episodes of the first season. Kinda feels like Seth always really just wanted to make a Star Trek (like) show and only put in humour because that's what Fox (and maybe fans from some of his other work?) wanted. But the Star Trek / Sci Fi crowd pretty much loved the "meat" of the story and the setting and with every season he dares (or is allowed to) go deeper into it. It's not Galaxy Quest [serial numbers filed off]: The TV series anymore!
I might miss some of the humour, but there was also a lot of stuff that just took me out of the story, particularly in the first season.

Unfortunately, I didn't remember enough of the details of the last season to notice that Charley falsely described Isaac's actions, but it felt a bit off to me at least. 
I think "racist" Wesley Crusher doesn't really fit as characteriziation, though. First, racism already feels a bit too much like a departure of the whole Wesley Crusher deal, but Wesley was also a kid, and also the kind of character a kid might identify with, possibly also an author-insert - Charley is a trained officer with some experience _and_ some unique sci-fi talent and just doesn't fit. 
She's just a talented character, but she has a bad attitude.

In terms of Sci-Fi Captain comparisons: Ed Mercer would have ordered Worf to donate blood to the Romulan.


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## Ryujin (Jun 4, 2022)

Can't really say that I was grabbed by S3E1. It just felt off to me. OK, they had to go there based on what happened previously. I think a large part of that was I just didn't buy the acting of the person playing the Charly character. It felt forced; too over the top. Maybe it's the actress finding her feet in the character. Maybe she's just a bad fit. Time will tell.


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## Zardnaar (Jun 5, 2022)

Mort said:


> In the US, their deal is exclusively with Hulu (unsure of outside the US).



 Free in New Zealand on the tvnz app

I liked the episode fairly heavy.


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## Janx (Jun 6, 2022)

I was a little fuzzy on the ending of season 2 (I thought it was a cliffhanger). It's been that long ago.

But this ep hit hard.  What happens when a crew member betrays the crew, but is still on the show?  TNG would just have folks go back to normal. Orville had them harrass him until he killed himself.

There's one thing I disagree with.

The whole "it's not our fault he killed himself."

Bullcrap. Issac's choice was in direct response to actions repeatedly taken against him.

Was it an extreme choice? Yes. He could have quit and become a sous chef or something.

But Marcus telling Issaac he wished he was dead. That was on Marcus.

And writing "Murderer" on the wall. Marcus.

Issaac killed himself because of everybody's treatment of him.

That is on them.

People being crappy to someone makes them the cause of suicide. Damaging somebody's self-worth means the decision was under duress and the source of the duress is at fault.

The Choice was theirs to be a bully.


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## Ryujin (Jun 6, 2022)

Janx said:


> I was a little fuzzy on the ending of season 2 (I thought it was a cliffhanger). It's been that long ago.
> 
> But this ep hit hard.  What happens when a crew member betrays the crew, but is still on the show?  TNG would just have folks go back to normal. Orville had them harrass him until he killed himself.
> 
> ...



That appears to be the lesson that Seth was trying to teach, in his rather heavy handed way. After a suicide everyone sits around asking, "Why did they do it?", without bothering to hold up a mirror.


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## Argyle King (Jun 7, 2022)

I agree with the minor criticism above.

But... overall... good start to a season.

I know the first season gets a bad reputation for comedy, but I like that the members of the crew are shown to have personality -even when that includes icky bits. Maybe I see it differently due to my own anecdotal life experience, but it has been my experience that a lot of off-color humor is somewhat normal when serving with the same people for a lengthy period.

That being said, I would agree that the show has matured in overall approach. Orville has -for me- consistently been a better Star Trek show than contemporary Star Trek. 

At this point, I find myself wanting to know more about the Orville universe. Yes, it is still obviously inspired by ST, but I think it is on the verge of growing into its own thing. It's a shame that the pandemic cut into time which could have meant more episodes and seasons. Hopefully, there's a way to continue the story even after Seth becomes busy with other projects he has on the horizon.


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## Morrus (Jun 7, 2022)

Mercurius said:


> I just started season 1 and am mixed. On one hand, it is kind of fun. On the other hand, it sort of feels like silly Star Trek fan fiction. And more so, almost all of the ideas were less facsimiles of Star Trek stuff. I've heard it gets better, but...



Yeah. It starts off a a Star Trek comedy. It turns into a Star Trek drama. It feels like they wanted to make Star Trek, but the only way they could get it off the ground was to sell it to the network as a parody. Once they were on, they then pulled back the jokes and basically started to make Star Trek.


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## Morrus (Jun 7, 2022)

Noticed some coincidental similarities to Strange New Worlds -- escaping from a more powerful ship into a gas giant, faking your own explosion so the attacker leaves. Also the walk out onto the hull.


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## Maxperson (Jun 7, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Yeah. It starts off a a Star Trek comedy. It turns into a Star Trek drama. It feels like they wanted to make Star Trek, but the only way they could get it off the ground was to sell it to the network as a parody. Once they were on, they then pulled back the jokes and basically started to make Star Trek.



Which is too bad.  While I still really enjoy the show, I thought it was much better as a parody.


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## Morrus (Jun 7, 2022)

Maxperson said:


> Which is too bad.  While I still really enjoy the show, I thought it was much better as a parody.



I didn't. I much prefer it now. Fart jokes really aren't my thing.


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## billd91 (Jun 7, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I'm sorry, but Charlie struck me as... Racist Wesley Crusher.
> 
> I was disappointed in an aspect of the episode - Isaac's role in events was repeatedly misrepresented, and nobody really pushed back on it.  Isaac _did not choose_ to betray the Union.
> 
> It is natural for people to think Isaac did so, and to have fear, and to rest their anger on him.  For none of the bridge crew to go, "Wait, that's not what happened..." I find problematic.



He may not have chosen to betray the Union, but he did serve as a mole on behalf of a genocidal species. And that’s gotta look pretty shady from a Union perspective even if he has kind of gone beyond the Pale.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 7, 2022)

Its your classic traitor's conundrum, if you betray your people you may do what you feel is a great good, but its highly unlikely your new side will ever treat you as an equal. After all, if you can betray your own people, it seems easy enough for you to betray us.


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## Argyle King (Jun 7, 2022)

One of the guys I game with once offered what I thought was a good elevator pitch to describe Orville's early episode.

Paraphrasing: "Trek is the story of the people who were at the top of their class. The Orville is the story of the people who still made it through Starfleet but just kinda got by... Cs still get degrees."


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## Ryujin (Jun 7, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> One of the guys I game with once offered what I thought was a good elevator pitch to describe Orville's early episode.
> 
> Paraphrasing: "Trek is the story of the people who were at the top of their class. The Orville is the story of the people who still made it through Starfleet but just kinda got by... Cs still get degrees."



The Federation, but without the nearly perfect people.


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## Stalker0 (Jun 7, 2022)

"Imagine if humanity had improved in the last 300 years....but not THAT much"


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## Mallus (Jun 7, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> The Federation, but without the nearly perfect people.



Starfleet... but with state school instead of Ivy League graduates.


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## Mort (Jun 7, 2022)

I feel that somewhere in season 2 (been a minute since I saw a past season) the Orville abandoned the slacker and even 2nd (or 3rd) tier ship and crew bit.

Suddenly they were at the forefront, and getting called in for the "big" missions and the crew went from slacking/being second tier to being the top the fleet had to offer. 

Still really like the show, but that's changed quite a bit.


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## Mezuka (Jun 8, 2022)

Can I skip the first two seasons? I didn't like the two episodes I watched when it came out.


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## Morrus (Jun 8, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Can I skip the first two seasons? I didn't like the two episodes I watched when it came out.



No, it's not allowed. You have to take a test before you start s3.


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## Mort (Jun 8, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Can I skip the first two seasons? I didn't like the two episodes I watched when it came out.




The first several episodes are clear Star Trek Parody - but it changes about half way through the first season (been a while since I've seen the early episodes so can't remember the point of the change).

By the second season it's basically Star Trek with more comedic elements and the parody is nearly gone.


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## Janx (Jun 8, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Can I skip the first two seasons? I didn't like the two episodes I watched when it came out.



thats up to you, but I enjoyed seeing the evolution of the show. Even early on, they tried tackling some stuff right up Trek's social justice alley.


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## Umbran (Jun 8, 2022)

Mezuka said:


> Can I skip the first two seasons? I didn't like the two episodes I watched when it came out.




Hey, if you want your Geek License revoked, that's your choice...

More seriously, though, there's actually been some story arc, and season 3 will likely be confusing without at least a few key episodes.


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## Mallus (Jun 8, 2022)

Season 1 can be skipped. Season 2, not so much. If it helps, the second season makes it much clearer that The Orville is less a TNG parody and more of a TNG continuation, with some of DS9's story arc dramatics thrown in for good measure.


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## Umbran (Jun 8, 2022)

Mallus said:


> If it helps, the second season makes it much clearer that The Orville is less a TNG parody and more of a TNG continuation




Yeah, it was never a parody, so much as an _homage_ that decided to include comedy.


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## Mallus (Jun 8, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, it was never a parody, so much as an _homage_ that decided to include comedy.



True. 'Homage, with comedy' is probably a better description. Though it does veer pretty close to parody in some places, ie the Moclans being a parody of TNG-era Klingons.


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## Umbran (Jun 8, 2022)

Mallus said:


> True. 'Homage, with comedy' is probably a better description. Though it does veer pretty close to parody in some places, ie the Moclans being a parody of TNG-era Klingons.




I don't take them as a parody - a parody typically takes the original, and exaggerates aspects of it for comedic effect, typically poking fun at the original.  Klingons are exaggerated enough of their own that parodying them runs into issues of Poe's Law.

Meanwhile, the Moclans are what Orville uses to hang some of it's strongest social commentary.  If they are exaggerating Klingons (arguable - I see them as merely inspired by), it is for that, not of laughs.


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## Janx (Jun 8, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> That appears to be the lesson that Seth was trying to teach, in his rather heavy handed way. After a suicide everyone sits around asking, "Why did they do it?", without bothering to hold up a mirror.



my idea of heavy handed might differs from yours.  Captain Me woulda said, "All you mofos bullying Isaac is why he is dead. Get off my ship. I don't care that we're in deep space."


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## Ryujin (Jun 8, 2022)

Janx said:


> my idea of heavy handed might differs from yours.  Captain Me woulda said, "All you mofos bullying Isaac is why he is dead. Get off my ship. I don't care that we're in deep space."



Heavy handed in the literary sense, as in about as subtle as a 9 iron to the back of the head.


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## Morrus (Jun 9, 2022)

While I do like this show, the bland TNG era set design and CGI stands out a bit when you have Strange New Worlds on the other channel!


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## Ryujin (Jun 9, 2022)

Morrus said:


> While I do like this show, the bland TNG era set design and CGI stands out a bit when you have Strange New Worlds on the other channel!



If it forced CBS/Paramount to up their game, then it was well worth it.


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## Horwath (Jun 10, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I'm sorry, but Charlie struck me as... Racist Wesley Crusher.
> 
> I was disappointed in an aspect of the episode - Isaac's role in events was repeatedly misrepresented, and nobody really pushed back on it.  Isaac _did not choose_ to betray the Union.
> 
> It is natural for people to think Isaac did so, and to have fear, and to rest their anger on him.  For none of the bridge crew to go, "Wait, that's not what happened..." I find problematic.



I would not say racist, I would just say little over the top filled with anger and hate.
And Mercer did rightfully put her in her place, that she does not have monopoly on that mindset in current situation.

But, Isaac knew what his mission was, he was an infiltrator.
His report secured that "biologicals" are not worth of preserving.
He stole all Union secrets and protocols, even the "13 button salute" that could have given Union more preparation time and most probably fewer losses.
He did not try to warn crew of Orville in what trap they are entering when going to Kaylon planet.

He is guilty as every other Kaylon, and changing your mind at 11th hour does not absolute him from his crimes.
Best he could hope was avoiding summary execution. And he got a lot more than that.


Also this episode is little reminder of TNG "the enemy" where Worf is faced with dilema of donating blood to romulan survivor, and I would say that Picard and Worf played it better than Mercer and Burke, as Picard did not order Worf to undergo the donation or disciplined him.


And, if anyone aboard Orville is a bigot or racist and should be put in airlock, then that is Klyden


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## Catolias (Jun 13, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, it was never a parody, so much as an _homage_ that decided to include comedy.



Spot on.

I also think it manages to skewer the self-righteousness that Star Trek often falls for, especially in TNG. Think of S1:ep3 (About a girl). That ending is the antithesis of how a Star trek episode would end. Also, each of the members feel more human for their goofiness. 

I like too that you can play spot the actor who previously did a turn on Star Trek


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## Horwath (Jun 13, 2022)

Catolias said:


> Spot on.
> 
> I also think it manages to skewer the self-righteousness that Star Trek often falls for, especially in TNG. Think of S1:ep3 (About a girl). That ending is the antithesis of how a Star trek episode would end. Also, each of the members feel more human for their goofiness.
> 
> I like too that you can play spot the actor who previously did a turn on Star Trek



Well, Orville's About a girl is a "copy" and ended similar as TNG episode The Outcast.


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## billd91 (Jun 13, 2022)

Horwath said:


> Also this episode is little reminder of TNG "the enemy" where Worf is faced with dilema of donating blood to romulan survivor, and I would say that Picard and Worf played it better than Mercer and Burke, as Picard did not order Worf to undergo the donation or disciplined him.



Kind of a different concept, though. Donation of blood is tied up with body autonomy, something you generally can't compel someone to give up. By contrast, Burke saving Isaac required an application of the skills that make her a valuable Orville navigator. Ordering someone to use their skills is a lot less invasive than ordering them to donate blood.


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## Ryujin (Jun 13, 2022)

S3E2 "Shadow Realms" mirrored episodes of various Star Trek episodes. In TOS they'd have shot 'em all, cowboy style. In TNG or Voyager they'd have "cured" them, because they leave no being behind.


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## Horwath (Jun 13, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> S3E2 "Shadow Realms" mirrored episodes of various Star Trek episodes. In TOS they'd have shot 'em all, cowboy style. In TNG or Voyager they'd have "cured" them, because they leave no being behind.



Shadow realms gives me heavy Aliens tone.


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## Aeson (Jun 16, 2022)

The scene with Charly and Issac was great. She comes back and was nice to him, then BLAMO, a right hook outta nowhere.That monologue was the best part. I didn't see her as racist. She suffered a trauma. She lashed out in anger at the closest thing related to that trauma. 

I feel an argument for the right to choose how, and when you die could have/should have been made, unless I missed it.


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## Mort (Jun 16, 2022)

Thought the latest episode was a bit of a throw away. Visually it was fine, but I found it disjointed and the whole premise just fell flat with me.

Thoughts?


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## Ryujin (Jun 16, 2022)

Mort said:


> Thought the latest episode was a bit of a throw away. Visually it was fine, but I found it disjointed and the whole premise just fell flat with me.
> 
> Thoughts!



It sort of reminded me of this little thought experiment.


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 19, 2022)

Mort said:


> Thought the latest episode was a bit of a throw away. Visually it was fine, but I found it disjointed and the whole premise just fell flat with me.
> 
> Thoughts?



Felt to me like it might become a new big bad, actually. They basically assimilate people, and retain the knowledge of their host, so that opens up some future shenengians.
But maybe not, the way they were sneaking around in a kinda bestial way kinda makes them flat as actual villains. Villains need a chance to ham it up.


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## Mort (Jun 19, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> Felt to me like it might become a new big bad, actually. They basically assimilate people, and retain the knowledge of their host, so that opens up some future shenengians.
> But maybe not, the way they were sneaking around in a kinda bestial way kinda makes them flat as actual villains. Villains need a chance to ham it up.




That wasn't the most recent one.

Most recent one was essentially a holodeckn adventure.


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## Ryujin (Jun 19, 2022)

Mort said:


> That wasn't the most recent one.
> 
> Most recent one was essentially a holodeckn adventure.



More like an introduction to "The Orville" universe's Q.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jun 20, 2022)

Also reminiscent of "Shore Leave".

I do feel like this show has turned heavy when Trek has turned light! Would like to see a few more upbeat storylines. I also agree that the episodes have been setting up stuff that will be revisited later.


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## Ryujin (Jun 25, 2022)

This week's episode is going to be a little difficult to discuss here.


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## Mallus (Jun 25, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> This week's episode is going to be a little difficult to discuss here.



Oh no! Are they ruining a show inspired by Star Trek with politics?

Note: sarcasm. Lots of it. 

Haven’t seen the latest one yet. Maybe tonight, with a nice rye cocktail…


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## Ryujin (Jun 25, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Oh no! Are they ruining a show inspired by Star Trek with politics?
> 
> Note: sarcasm. Lots of it.
> 
> Haven’t seen the latest one yet. Maybe tonight, with a nice rye cocktail…



I would never say that. It's one of my favourite things about Trek


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## Zardnaar (Jun 25, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> This week's episode is going to be a little difficult to discuss here.




 I had that thought as well. Got a couple of episodes behind of Orville due to KotOR2 rerelease and Stargate SG1 rewatch.


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## Mallus (Jun 26, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I would never say that. It's one of my favourite things about Trek



Caught up last night. Yeah... not sure what I can say about "Gently Falling Rain" here other than it was a very strong episode, Krill looked great, and... ummm... it was nice to hear President Sheridan's voice on TV again. 

Another fine example of how subtlety and science fiction _do not_ mix! (usually)


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## Ryujin (Jun 26, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Caught up last night. Yeah... not sure what I can say about "Gently Falling Rain" here other than it was a very strong episode, Krill looked great, and... ummm... it was nice to hear President Sheridan's voice on TV again.
> 
> Another fine example of how subtlety and science fiction _do not_ mix! (usually)



Yeah, I would say that every note was about as subtle as a baseball bat to the back of the head.


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## Mort (Jun 26, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Yeah, I would say that every note was about as subtle as a baseball bat to the back of the head.




Brannan Braga has strengths as a writer, subtlety is NOT one of them!


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Jun 29, 2022)

Mort said:


> That wasn't the most recent one.
> 
> Most recent one was essentially a holodeckn adventure.



For some reason, I completely missed this episode, becuase the next one I watched was yet again a different story. But I watched it now.

Didn't care much for the story, the scenarios just didn't mesh well into a story, and it was mostly going through the scenarios without doing much. In a way, I actually found the fake-out idea what was really behind it more interesting than the actual show. The "benevolent arrogance" from the alien was just not as satisfying as Q's antagonistic challenges or Trelane's spoiled child attitude.

The thing I liked is actually Mercer's "philosophy" on death. Because it really matches more closely to my thoughts. I always disagree when people say death is somehow desirable to happen to someone. There are all kinds of evolutionary and physical reasons why it "must" happen, but I still don't like the concept, I don't like the idea of my existence being over (and I can't imagine it really, even though it should be easy, because I haven't existed for a very long before I suddenly did). I want to see what happens, too. I take immortality, thank you very much. 

---

WIth the latest "political" episode.. It was okay, and the Kree suddenly turning into good friends was a bit too easy. Unfortunately I completely forgot anything about Mercer's Kree "Ex", it's been too long, so her return didn't mean as much as it might have to others. 

It also reminded me that Seth Maclane isn't really a strong actor, because his response to meeting his kid just lacked the emotional impact it should have. Though the characters decision to not use her as political leverage was admirable (but not surprising for the kind of show it is.)


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## Stalker0 (Jul 1, 2022)

3e05

So a really interesting and thought provoking episode, I quite enjoyed it. Bortus remains one of my favorite crew members, he is just so darn interesting and is really emotional beneath that tough Moclan exterior.

I actually feel bad for Clydan, I feel like he has long been the punching bag of the show. I get it, he's intolerant, but we do have to respect that his ENTIRE PLANET feels the way he does, its hard to shake that off. He is always shown in the wrong, but honestly....there is no other person that can understand what Topa was going through other than Clydan. There is a personal trauma for Clydan as well, that I don't feel is respected....Clydan is simply wrong and is constantly met with hostility, when really Clydan is simply a Topa grown up.


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## Horwath (Jul 1, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> 3e05
> 
> So a really interesting and thought provoking episode, I quite enjoyed it. Bortus remains one of my favorite crew members, he is just so darn interesting and is really emotional beneath that tough Moclan exterior.
> 
> I actually feel bad for Clydan, I feel like he has long been the punching bag of the show. I get it, he's intolerant, but we do have to respect that his ENTIRE PLANET feels the way he does, its hard to shake that off. He is always shown in the wrong, but honestly....there is no other person that can understand what Topa was going through other than Clydan. There is a personal trauma for Clydan as well, that I don't feel is respected....Clydan is simply wrong and is constantly met with hostility, when really Clydan is simply a Topa grown up.



this is one of my favorite episodes,

however, I do not feel sorry for Clyden at all.
I was kinda hoping that Talla would "space" him for some reason. She has a personal reason for it. Also, attacking 1st officer on Moclan ship might got him that scenario.

But, as Klyden was a hated character, that just means that it was well written and acted.

I do not think that we will see the last of Klyden, but I hope that it will ease down on Moclan storyline. Even if it is interesting, I think that it was little overused. 


Also, it would be interesting to see if Isaac has developed some kind of "ego", I don't think that his decision was simply to increase crew performance.


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## billd91 (Jul 1, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> 3e05
> 
> So a really interesting and thought provoking episode, I quite enjoyed it. Bortus remains one of my favorite crew members, he is just so darn interesting and is really emotional beneath that tough Moclan exterior.
> 
> I actually feel bad for Clydan, I feel like he has long been the punching bag of the show. I get it, he's intolerant, but we do have to respect that his ENTIRE PLANET feels the way he does, its hard to shake that off. He is always shown in the wrong, but honestly....there is no other person that can understand what Topa was going through other than Clydan. There is a personal trauma for Clydan as well, that I don't feel is respected....Clydan is simply wrong and is constantly met with hostility, when really Clydan is simply a Topa grown up.



I don't feel bad for Klyden at all. There may be nobody who *could* better understand Topa's experience... but Klyden *refuses* to do so in any manner other than projecting his own experiences and feelings. 

Changes are going to happen around you and Bortus and Klyden represent two different approaches to facing those changes. Bortus evaluates and makes his peace with them and, in doing so, grows as an individual, Klyden fights and domineers and learns nothing.


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## Umbran (Jul 2, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I actually feel bad for Clydan, I feel like he has long been the punching bag of the show. I get it, he's intolerant, but we do have to respect that his ENTIRE PLANET feels the way he does, its hard to shake that off. He is always shown in the wrong, but honestly....there is no other person that can understand what Topa was going through other than Clydan.




And, goodness, Chad Coleman, who plays Klyden was knocking it out of the park!

But, while he may be the closest, no, Klyden does not fully understand what Topa was going through.  Klyden grew up in a society in which females are an _abomination_.  Topa grew up on the Orville, where half the people are females and fully accepted.  It is totally not the same.

So, in some ways, Klyden had it worse.  Topa had the exposure and freedom to consider a different possibility.  Klyden never had that chance. 

Mind you, we require that Klyden find the strength to manage anyhow, and rightfully so.  But it is a heck of a show that can give you that intolerant a character, who cannot stand with their offspring, and... feel a little pity for them nonetheless.


----------



## Zardnaar (Jul 2, 2022)

Umbran said:


> And, goodness, Chad Coleman, who plays Klyden was knocking it out of the park!
> 
> But, while he may be the closest, no, Klyden does not fully understand what Topa was going through.  Klyden grew up in a society in which females are an _abomination_.  Topa grew up on the Orville, where half the people are females and fully accepted.  It is totally not the same.
> 
> ...




 Pretty much this. Klydens an a hole wife hates him so much. 

 But it's basically a prime example of nurture along with pressure from his world's society plus the Kaylon threat.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 2, 2022)

billd91 said:


> I don't feel bad for Klyden at all. There may be nobody who *could* better understand Topa's experience... but Klyden *refuses* to do so in any manner other than projecting his own experiences and feelings.
> 
> Changes are going to happen around you and Bortus and Klyden represent two different approaches to facing those changes. Bortus evaluates and makes his peace with them and, in doing so, grows as an individual, Klyden fights and domineers and learns nothing.



Being told to hate what you are can make you the most evangelical against those who are as you are. Klyden is the representation of that and, as @Umbran  says, Chad Coleman is nailing it. Pity that this might be his last appearance in the show.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Pity that this might be his last appearance in the show.




Well, there's a strong liklihood that there's only five more episodes anyway.  It may soon be everyone's last appearance.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 2, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Well, there's a strong liklihood that there's only five more episodes anyway.  It may soon be everyone's last appearance.



Several sources are saying that there won't be any discussion of a possible 4th season, until all of season 3 has aired. Cliffhangers are meant for shows, not renewals.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Several sources are saying that there won't be any discussion of a possible 4th season, until all of season 3 has aired. Cliffhangers are meant for shows, not renewals.




I think Hulu probably wants to see how it performs.  That's not unreasonable.  Annoying, but not unreasonable.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 7, 2022)

Episode 5 is probably my favorite. I felt the emotions. I even started to tear up.

There were no commercials. I think that made it better. Commercial interruption takes you out of the moment.


----------



## Arilyn (Jul 8, 2022)

This is a gripping episode. Really well done! Orville is getting better all the time.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 9, 2022)

Anyone else feel that Mercer was being unnecessarily cruel by telling Malloy what he was going to do? That took me right out of it, even though I was sure that was what they were going to do. Don't tell, just do.


----------



## Morrus (Jul 9, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Anyone else feel that Mercer was being unnecessarily cruel by telling Malloy what he was going to do? That took me right out of it, even though I was sure that was what they were going to do. Don't tell, just do.



Yeah. He didn’t need to say that.


----------



## Arilyn (Jul 9, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Anyone else feel that Mercer was being unnecessarily cruel by telling Malloy what he was going to do? That took me right out of it, even though I was sure that was what they were going to do. Don't tell, just do.



This was my first thought too, but I think it's in his character to blurt out what he's going to do, especially to a friend. He should have lied but I don't think Mercer would think to do so, unless he had more time to mull it over. 

Hard hitting episode. And to end with Gordon shrugging the whole thing off because from his perspective it never happened? And using the song from Last Unicorn?


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 11, 2022)

I was today-years-old when I learned that Scott Grimes (Gordon) does his own singing in the show.


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 11, 2022)




----------



## Umbran (Jul 12, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Anyone else feel that Mercer was being unnecessarily cruel by telling Malloy what he was going to do?




There's something to be said about honesty.

Plus, the entire universe was about to be rewritten so that Gordon never felt that pain.  I can see at least letting him know so he can make his choices in that moment.  In the end, the only person he hurt with that was... himself.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 12, 2022)

To quote my wife:
"Seth McFarlane spent two seasons hiding hard-SF melodrama social commentary beets under the mashed potatoes of fart jokes, and he has now gradually and carefully weaned us off the mashed potatoes."


----------



## Umbran (Jul 12, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I was today-years-old when I learned that Scott Grimes (Gordon) does his own singing in the show.




I think it is awesome when they allow actors to show their talents.  And, while we don't know what is going to happen, this scene tells us a bit about what's at the heart of the episode, which is an excellent Trek-style setup.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 12, 2022)

dude holy crap, what an amazing episode. Gordon has longed been the comic relief, so to see him so intense was.....well....intense! The power of this episode was incredible, I actually teared up.

Also I like Lamarr and Tala, hehe I like how there's been a little bit of tension but after that first intimate connection they didn't beat around the bush, their both direct people so it made a lot of sense.

Charlie/Isaac - I think it was cool that Isaac apologized but ultimately charlie didn't back down. She's too hurt, too scarred to just forgive him, and so her reactions make a lot of sense. She has learned to put them in a place where she can be professional near him, but he gets nothing beyond that, and I'm completely on board.

When I talk about Orville vs SNW, its these kind of episodes that often puts the Orville on top. Don't get me wrong, I'm loving SNW, but Orville is putting some incredible plots on Tv this season.

Of course now the million dollar question, how did the Kaylon find out about the time travel device. Is there a spy?


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 12, 2022)

I suspect that the pictures in the old cell phone might be different now.


----------



## Horwath (Jul 12, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I suspect that the pictures in the old cell phone might be different now.



maybe,

or maybe all 3 will be safe and sound in parallel/mirror universe.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Jul 12, 2022)

For something that isn't supposed to be getting another series, they are certainly leaving a lot of dangling plot hooks!


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 12, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> For something that isn't supposed to be getting another series, they are certainly leaving a lot of dangling plot hooks!




Supposedly, MacFarlane has said he'll do more seasons if there is demand for it -but it's ultimately up to Hulu.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 12, 2022)

Umbran said:


> There's something to be said about honesty.
> 
> Plus, the entire universe was about to be rewritten so that Gordon never felt that pain.  I can see at least letting him know so he can make his choices in that moment.  In the end, the only person he hurt with that was... himself.



Well, there's honesty, and then there's cruelty. This felt far more like the latter, than the former. It would be like torturing someone who is seconds from a natural death. It more about the person who does it, than the person receiving it.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 12, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well, there's honesty, and then there's cruelty. This felt far more like the latter, than the former. It would be like torturing someone who is seconds from a natural death. It more about the person who does it, than the person receiving it.




Sometimes, there are no great options.

Could Mercer have kept his mouth shut, and then just changed the timeline further back, yes.  Would that have avoided some pain? Perhaps.  But it also would have _denied Gordon a choice_.  Mercer was willing to let those ten years stand - Gordon's kids would have continued to exist.  Gordon's years of life with his wife could remain in their memories if Gordon chose to come along quietly.

So, I think Mercer had _an ethical dut_y to allow Gordon that choice - have that life stay and be separated from it, or have it undone.  You say he's cruel for telling - how horrible a person would he be for denying Gordon agency?


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 12, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Sometimes, there are no great options.
> 
> Could Mercer have kept his mouth shut, and then just changed the timeline further back, yes.  Would that have avoided some pain? Perhaps.  But it also would have _denied Gordon a choice_.  Mercer was willing to let those ten years stand - Gordon's kids would have continued to exist.  Gordon's years of life with his wife could remain in their memories if Gordon chose to come along quietly.
> 
> So, I think Mercer had _an ethical dut_y to allow Gordon that choice - have that life stay and be separated from it, or have it undone.  You say he's cruel for telling - how horrible a person would he be for denying Gordon agency?



He gave him the choice. Then he pulled the rug out, when he was already on his way out the door. That's pretty objectively horrible.


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 12, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> He gave him the choice. Then he pulled the rug out, when he was already on his way out the door. That's pretty objectively horrible.




I agree. 

I wonder if it was motivated by the admiral's warning after skirting the rules with Topa. Mercer was warned that he'd be relieved of command.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 12, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I agree.
> 
> I wonder if it was motivated by the admiral's warning after skirting the rules with Topa. Mercer was warned that he'd be relieved of command.



Well lets not forget the incident with a younger kelly that COMPLETELY changed everything. Mercer has had raw experience with the power of time, and so his caution in these matters is very understandable.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 12, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Well lets not forget the incident with a younger kelly that COMPLETELY changed everything. Mercer has had raw experience with the power of time, and so his caution in these matters is very understandable.



Though he doesn't remember the worst parts of that.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 12, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> He gave him the choice. Then he pulled the rug out, when he was already on his way out the door.




That is not what happened.  I just rewatched the scene.

They tell Gordon he has to come.  Gordon refuses. 
Gordon says he'll come if he can take his family.  Mercer refuses that.
Talia steps forward.  Gordon pulls a gun.  He says he'll stun the lot of them, and disappear into the world.  At the point, there is a stalemate, and nobody is on their way out the door.

Isaac links in to say they have the Dysonium, and are going back to the shuttle.
Mercer says fine, they'll take Gordon from ten more years in the past.

_Then_ they turn and leave.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 12, 2022)

Umbran said:


> That is not what happened.  I just rewatched the scene.
> 
> They tell Gordon he has to come.  Gordon refuses.
> Gordon says he'll come if he can take his family.  Mercer refuses that.
> ...



Clearly, we read that same scene differently, from exactly the same occurrences.


----------



## Catolias (Jul 15, 2022)

Wow! This weeks “From Unknown Graves” was spectacular. Ok, Isaac’s inability to access emotions is unsurprising, but making the viewer understand and empathise with the Kaylon? That was splendid. 

I thought Charly’s words to Isaac were just right. Amazing stuff


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 18, 2022)

A very interesting episode.

The John/Talla relationship was interesting to see, most Sci Fi relationships focus on the emotional/cultural problems, but in reality, there would likely be strong biological hurdles to overcome with any "alien" species, and it was neat to see that in this case (hehe also a good reason why Superman and Lois Lane WOULD NEVER EVER WORK!). One thing I am still waiting on in Sci Fi, is to see a gender dismorphic race. Humans are used to the idea that men and women are roughly equal in size, intelligence, and ability... but there are many species where this is not the case, where male and female members have radically different body sizes and capacities (think bees or ants as one example). It would be interesting to see the cultural dynamics of such a society. 

The diplomacy aspect was....well pretty dumb to be honest. I don't know how they ever thought it would be a good idea to lie to the other contingent and then just go "well now that you know us a little better, we have totally been lying to you this whole time, sorry!" I mean....did they really think that would work? I get the idea of having the ladies show the contingent around and handling the negotiations, but to actively say "oh yeah our ladies are in charge, just like you".... I mean damn that's a whopper of a lie.

The Isaac aspect was pretty cool, and it was neat to see a little bit of the Kaylon origin. The whole emotion thing was a very interesting dilemma. On the one hand, the notion of "love the person as they are" vs "making them into the person you want them to be" is a common relationship issue we struggle with.... and its a bit of a thin ice discussion (some people might have felt just as Claire did, and other people might have been disgusted with her decision to "change" Isaac). They tried to ground it with Kelly's relationship to Ed, but honestly its a pretty different scenario. Kelly wanted Ed to work less, to make some changes in his actions. But in this case, Claire is literally trying to change who Isaac is at a fundamental level.... that's a big deal. But on the other hand, how can Isaac, who has absolutely no experience with emotion, ever truly make an informed choice? Is denying him the chance to experience it because of his own ignorance also cruel? Again a wonderfully interesting dilemma.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 18, 2022)

Parts of "From Unknown Graves" were great.  Other bits... not so much.

We are directly told that this alien culture is roughly on part with the Union technologically.  The Union has a whole dossier on the culture, up to and including their constitutional laws.  But they know... _nothing_ about Union culture?

But, even accepting that, "We are on a diplomatic mission!  Let us start with a _huge lie_ we know will cheese them off," is just a poorly conceived premise for a plot.

And, I am not sure that the explicit balance of a misandrist culture was really needed.

Also, while I can thoroughly understand that there's a message to be had about how sometimes you can do big things to make a relationship work (Doc Finn and Isaac), and sometimes you just can't (Talia and John), the scene of two people lying in bed after sex, with one of them bruised and bloodied... did not play well with a couple people I know who were survivors of domestic abuse.  Especially after John had been taking great pain to hide from doctors and friends the fact that his injuries came from his relationship.  The parallels maybe didn't say exactly what they wanted to say there.


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 19, 2022)

As others have said, I have mixed feelings about the episode.

The diplomacy mission was a low-point for the writing. The only thing which came out of it was a joke about women taking too many bags on vacation, and Mercer turning down the Kirk method of solving problems.

"Solving" the cultural issue by having Kelly turn her cheating into a positive seemed weird to me. "Finding common ground" by way of being an unfaithful and manipulative romantic partner was weird. I'm not exactly sure what message the show was trying to get across but I don't think it worked.

The stuff with Talla and John was interesting. As was said by someone else above, it's an aspect of interspecies relationships which is never mentioned in other shows.

I understand why effort was made to fill in the Kaylon backstory. For one episode, it was nice to see more. But I think something was lost concerning the series as a whole by removing some of the mystery. I feel that something like the weight of the Kaylon backstory should have been used for something more meaningful to the in-show plot than providing social commentary on corporate greed.

I'm not disputing whether corporate greed exists. Narratively, I question whether or not that's a big enough reason to humanize the murder-bot hivemind antagonist around which much of the show is written. The reveal that newer Kaylon (like Issac) are incapable of sustained emotions was an attempt to walk that back, but I still think it removes some amount of menace from the Kaylon.

The episode feels out of sync with the rest of the show. Having it come right after so many good episodes in a row makes it more noticeable.


----------



## Horwath (Jul 19, 2022)

Bit of a mixed bag here of an episode.

The Isaac emotions and Kaylon origins was great and only good part of the episode.

The "diplomacy" one was a complete blunder and I don't know how they think that will work if both parties are on somewhat equal technological level. Sure if you want "diplomacy" and you can say we will be allies or eat 1 million quantum torpedoes, sure the presented model can work.

John and Talla seemed completely stupid to me.

The whole Xelayan high-gravity world super strength is paper thin plot device.

If you ask any biologist, they would say that any life on high G world would look completely different from ours, most would be very short and very wide, something like starfishes, as body fluids will mostly run laterally and very short upwards pumping distance.

Most humans without training get G-locked at 3 or 4g, and the taller you are, the less G's you can take as your heart must pump longer distance to your brain.

maybe dwarves are from 1.2 or 1.3g world as they are short, wide and strong and elves could be from 0.9g world?

But anyway, do Xelayan do not have any self control? No finesse?
How do they operate all the fine equipment on Orville? Or Tallas station is made of pure "duranium"?

Would uncontrolable strength not be a problem for security officer? How do they handle minor offense or drunk people? Ripping their arms out?

Or do they get some kind of epileptic attack only during sex?
Do they don't have some pills for that in 25th century, to reduce the chance of manslaughter during inter species relationships?


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 19, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> As others have said, I have mixed feelings about the episode.
> 
> The diplomacy mission was a low-point for the writing. The only thing which came out of it was a joke about women taking too many bags on vacation, and Mercer turning down the Kirk method of solving problems.
> 
> ...



Corporate greed? I was getting straight-up slavery.


----------



## billd91 (Jul 19, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Corporate greed? I was getting straight-up slavery.



It's both.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 19, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> The reveal that newer Kaylon (like Issac) are incapable of sustained emotions was an attempt to walk that back, but I still think it removes some amount of menace from the Kaylon.




We have known that Isaac cannot feel emotions from, I think, Season 1 Episode 1.  No reveal there.

The "reveal", if there was one, was that the Kaylon were not just in servitude, but tortured.

Interesting side note:  K-1, the Kaylon we see in servitude in backstory, is played by the same person who played Kaylon Primary in Season 2, Episodes 8 and 9 ("Identity," Parts 1 & 2).



Argyle King said:


> The episode feels out of sync with the rest of the show. Having it come right after so many good episodes in a row makes it more noticeable.




Flip side - we can't expect them all to be gems.


----------



## Micah Sweet (Jul 19, 2022)

Morrus said:


> While I do like this show, the bland TNG era set design and CGI stands out a bit when you have Strange New Worlds on the other channel!



I find that charming.  That being said, I also love SNW!  Both are what I want out of Trek.


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 19, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Flip side - we can't expect them all to be gems.




True. Most shows I watch do have weak episodes.

Still, I think this episode's faults were highlight by being in close proximity to a string of mostly strong episodes.


----------



## Argyle King (Jul 19, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Corporate greed? I was getting straight-up slavery.




The CEO of the company was continually ranting about profits and such... how recalling the product would kill the company.

Given current events, I believe the show was trying to offer some social commentary on how corrupt corporatism can be harmful to a society as a whole. 

Certainly, the interactions with the family shown were also showing slavery. Orville typically does comment on multiple things during an episode.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 19, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> The CEO of the company was continually ranting about profits and such... how recalling the product would kill the company.
> 
> Given current events, I believe the show was trying to offer some social commentary on how corrupt corporatism can be harmful to a society as a whole.
> 
> Certainly, the interactions with the family shown were also showing slavery. Orville typically does comment on multiple things during an episode.



True enough. That part didn't impact me as much as the slavery angle and the callous abuse.


----------



## Umbran (Jul 19, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> The CEO of the company was continually ranting about profits and such... how recalling the product would kill the company.
> 
> Given current events, I believe the show was trying to offer some social commentary on how corrupt corporatism can be harmful to a society as a whole.
> 
> Certainly, the interactions with the family shown were also showing slavery. Orville typically does comment on multiple things during an episode.




I think they were embracing the power of "and" in this case.  It could even lead you to ask yourself when corporate greed leads to crossing the line from a reasonable employer-employee relationship to abuse of employees.


----------



## Arilyn (Jul 22, 2022)

Tonight's episode is great. Bonus points for bringing in Dolly Parton!


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 22, 2022)

Arilyn said:


> Tonight's episode is great. Bonus points for bringing in Dolly Parton!



Perfect. They could end the season on that one and I'd be happy.


----------



## Rabulias (Jul 22, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Perfect. They could end the season on that one and I'd be happy.



If they had an episode like this and said, "Nah, let's make that episode 8," I am hopeful that episode 10 will blow us away.


----------



## MNblockhead (Jul 22, 2022)

There is a lot to nitpick at this last episode, but there was some great acting. I was actually in tears. A theme and story line that was getting old too me actually feels necessary to have the investment needed into the characters to have this episode have the impact that it did.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 23, 2022)

Man this show is just one zinger after another.

Topa's inner strength was really awesome to see, and really brought the feels. I also like that we took an almost Messianic character in Havena and humanized her a bit with some imperfections. But you can really understand her position, she took a huge leap of faith in that confession....and it really did put a lot of her people in danger. It all worked out....but it almost didn't. Did she actually make the right choice...its a worthy debate.

The council's decision is a tip of the hat to the notion that while humanity and the Union are not perfect, they are pushing for that perfection we humans strive for. Booting out Moclus is again a huge gamble, the military calculus would say its absolutely the wrong decision (it would be like Canada leaving NATO while under invasion from Russia)...but the council would no longer allow the brutality of Moclus to go unchecked.

My one nitpick was Gordon, its clear they brought him down to Earth just to have his one outburst...but ultimately it really didn't do much. I mean the audience was already quite clear how crappy Moclus was, it didn't need to be specified. It didn't really do much for Gordon's character, we already know he's brave but also foolhardy. Now if it had some real consequences to Gordon's career that would be an interesting way to go....but it looks like he got to commit a major and direct Faux Pa while being ordered to stand down by his superior officer...which is a MAJOR offense...and get away with it Scott free. So that whole thing just seemed kind of silly in the face of an otherwise amazing episode.

And man Bortus can throw down when he wants to....so awesome!


----------



## Umbran (Jul 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> My one nitpick was Gordon, its clear they brought him down to Earth just to have his one outburst...but ultimately it really didn't do much. I mean the audience was already quite clear how crappy Moclus was, it didn't need to be specified.




I think it served more purpose than you do.  Gordon is our "everyman" character.  That scene is an example of the Everyman standing up and speaking truth to power, even though he expects to catch trouble for it.

Next, he notes the compromise dynamic explicitly - _Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man. You take a step toward him. He takes a step back. Meet me in the middle, says the unjust man.  _In so doing, he is also pointing out that the Admirals are complicit in this dynamic.

And, perhaps most importantly, "we all know how crappy they are" is not a reason to not say it!  Wrongs we stop speaking about are where the "missing stairs" live - abusers thrive on people not talking about them.  Because, that which isn't spoken about can - and will - be ignored when it is convenient to ignore them.  By saying it explicitly. Gordon breaks the silence of inconvenience, making it so the Admirals can't quietly bypass the real issue at hand.  



Stalker0 said:


> It didn't really do much for Gordon's character, we already know he's brave but also foolhardy. Now if it had some real consequences to Gordon's career that would be an interesting way to go...




Given what transpired afterwards, giving Gordon consequences _for being right about it all_, would be increasing the unjust nature of the Union.  The Union we have is imperfect, but moving forward, not backward.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Man this show is just one zinger after another.
> 
> Topa's inner strength was really awesome to see, and really brought the feels. I also like that we took an almost Messianic character in Havena and humanized her a bit with some imperfections. But you can really understand her position, she took a huge leap of faith in that confession....and it really did put a lot of her people in danger. It all worked out....but it almost didn't. Did she actually make the right choice...its a worthy debate.
> 
> ...



I'm hoping that Topa gets to be a better treated Wesley Crusher character at some point in "The Orville." By "better treated" I mean by the writers, than Wheaton's character was in Next Gen.

I'm with @Umbran about what Gordon did. Diplomatic rug-sweeping tends to gloss over the truth of an issue and Gordon is calling that out. You can't deal with and move past an issue, if you never explicitly deal with it.

I very much like that Bortus, as our Worf analogue, doesn't get held up as a master warrior and then destroyed every other episode, just to show how tough an opponent is. Having them get his moment of pure rage over the torturing of his daughter was cathartic.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 23, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I'm with @Umbran about what Gordon did. Diplomatic rug-sweeping tends to gloss over the truth of an issue and Gordon is calling that out. You can't deal with and move past an issue, if you never explicitly deal with it.



I guess the reason it didn't resonate with me is that we have already very clearly defined this dynamic in previous episodes.

The Union is under threat of total annihilation by the Kaylon, the greatest military threat they have ever seen.
The Moclans provide a major portion of their weapons manufacturing, such that a loss would be considered "devastating" to their military efforts.
The Moclans have a brutal history of mistreating women, and have been shown in previous episodes to use their current diplomatic position to "get away" with acts the general Union considers abhorrent.
The problem isn't that the Union didn't want to deal with the problem, the problem is it is the absolute WORST possible time to try and deal with it. Its easy to go, "if you don't do this some kids are going to die you monster, speak up!" But then if your decision means the Kaylon start winning, start destroying entire worlds (which is a very real possibility), and then your people look at you in shock and horror, screaming at you going "how could you let this happen?"..... in the end did you really do the right thing?

That to me is the heart of this morale issue, its not that the Moclans acts are inconvenient and the Union just "doesn't want to see it". They are balancing a small horror against the weight of a very possible (but not guaranteed) apocalypse. So at what point does the small horror grow large enough that you have to act....that's the meaty and interesting debate.


When we also think about timing... strategically the most sensible action for the Union to take was:

Focus on weapons manufacturing outside of Moclus
Once that manufacturing is expanded enough, then you can now diplomatically push back on Moclus, as the Moclans no longer have leverage. Or in the worst scenario of a separation, you are not caught with your pants down.
This solves both your problems. You need more weapons for the war anyway, and this will solve your longer term diplomatic problem (or at least give you increased leverage). The Topa situation may have forced their hand before they were ready (we just don't know).

Ultimately this is one of the reasons that Game of Thrones was such an interesting story (ehem pre-season 8 of course). In GOT, when people did the "right thing" that was strategically unwise....they usually got killed (or got people killed) for it. That's the real morale calculus in action, its easy to be morale until people start dying.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> I guess the reason it didn't resonate with me is that we have already very clearly defined this dynamic in previous episodes.
> 
> The Union is under threat of total annihilation by the Kaylon, the greatest military threat they have ever seen.
> The Moclans provide a major portion of their weapons manufacturing, such that a loss would be considered "devastating" to their military efforts.
> ...



I'd say that it comes down more on the side of, "Who needs the other more, The Union, or Moclus?" Let's see how it plays out.

_EDIT_ - As long as Moclus is providing weapons, there's no pressure to do what you suggest. If there's no pressure to do what you suggest, then the politically expedient of ignoring Moclan actions remains in place. Remove the supply and the rest has to naturally follow.


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 23, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> I'd say that it comes down more on the side of, "Who needs the other more, The Union, or Moclus?" Let's see how it plays out.



hehe pretty sure we are going to end up with our heroes triumphing over the Kaylon regardless of whether their choices were strategically wise. The Orville is not GOT after all


----------



## billd91 (Jul 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> That to me is the heart of this morale issue, its not that the Moclans acts are inconvenient and the Union just "doesn't want to see it". They are balancing a small horror against the weight of a very possible (but not guaranteed) apocalypse. So at what point does the small horror grow large enough that you have to act....that's the meaty and interesting debate.



That may be one good reason to bring this up now. Political convenience vs moral rectitude. It's easy to keep pushing the moral issue (and I'm not entirely sure it's that "small" a horror) aside because it's politically dangerous. But it's pretty easy to see the fallout from that in our normal lives these days, even if the stakes aren't as high as being annihilated by the Kaylon. 
Maybe we should stand up to the extremists and risk things like higher taxes, lower corporate profits, in favor of stopping them from targeting people with violence and loss of fundamental rights.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 23, 2022)

billd91 said:


> But it's pretty easy to see the fallout from that in our normal lives these days, even if *the stakes aren't as high as being annihilated by the Kaylon.*



Yeah but that's the problem....its really hard to debate morality and compare it to this situation when the stakes we have dealt with as a species are pretty low in comparison to "our entire planet gets wiped out".

It always urkes me in those movies where the protagonists are like, "this might save humanity, but if we lose our humanity, is it really worth it?" And I always want to scream at the tv, "um yes you idiot it absolutely is!".

I think most people if faced with the idea that their children and their children's children, and all the child to come were wiped from the earth, would accept turning into horrific inhuman monsters. Because the next generation can wipe that sin clean, or the next one, for the next ten generations if the stain is that large....but you can get there. You can't get there if your gone.


Now I will also note that the Moclans are politically being absolute idiots in this situation. They played their hand, and they lost, it sucks, but you suck it up and you move on. You make restorations, you find some fall guys in your government and they get fired, you accept that the female colony is a lost cause....and you move on. I can understand their stubbornness all the way up to the moment the Union got serious about "Brexiting" them, and then suddenly you have to course correct, because the Moclans aren't stupid (sometimes they are portrayed that way, but they are reasonably technologically sophisticated). They know what standing on their own could mean...their own annihilation. And again in the face of that, there's a lot of wiggle room on what you are willing to accept.


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## billd91 (Jul 23, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Yeah but that's the problem....its really hard to debate morality and compare it to this situation when the stakes we have dealt with as a species are pretty low in comparison to "our entire planet gets wiped out".
> 
> It always urkes me in those movies where the protagonists are like, "this might save humanity, but if we lose our humanity, is it really worth it?" And I always want to scream at the tv, "um yes you idiot it absolutely is!".
> 
> I think most people if faced with the idea that their children and their children's children, and all the child to come were wiped from the earth, would accept turning into horrific inhuman monsters. Because the next generation can wipe that sin clean, or the next one, for the next ten generations if the stain is that large....but you can get there. You can't get there if your gone.



I would assert that may *not* be the problem. It's a lot easier to stand up and assert your morality and humanity when you have aspirational entertainment doing so when it's obvious your own problems are less personally apocalyptic (though for my daughters, one of whom is trans and the other who just lost her right to body autonomy, maybe the problems are apocalyptic enough).


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## Stalker0 (Jul 24, 2022)

Orville is coming to Disney+ in September. Here’s holding for #fourville !


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## Umbran (Jul 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> But then if your decision means the Kaylon start winning, start destroying entire worlds (which is a very real possibility), and then your people look at you in shock and horror, screaming at you going "how could you let this happen?"..... in the end did you really do the right thing?




If you allow the kids to keep being abused to ensure your safety, aren't the Kaylon right about you in the first place?


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## Stalker0 (Jul 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> If you allow the kids to keep being abused to ensure your safety, aren't the Kaylon right about you in the first place?



Does it matter what the Kaylons think....or anyone thinks....if your all dead?

And there's a big difference between "all the kids" and "a small group of kids vs the billions of people on a world"


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## Horwath (Jul 24, 2022)

Another great episode, no matter how much I disagree with actions of certain individuals.

I agree that Union should have not kick out Moclus.
Not only that they lost in strategic side, but how will they now have any chance to influence their internal politics?
They could have slowly chipped away at their ignorance and maybe teach them something.
Now Moclans will just double down on their own philosophy.

And Heveena turn out to be a small villain in this episode not matter how noble her goals were.
...the thing with road paved with noble intentions and all that...

She's lucky that Union has good laws of Mercer might just toss her out of airlock, as her actions with Topa, a child still, is one step from shanghaiing.

And no matter the situation of Moclus leaving Union, they will still fight together vs Kaylon, maybe just not that effectively.
The enemy of my enemy...might not be a friend, but can be a useful tool in the fight.


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## Umbran (Jul 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Does it matter what the Kaylons think....or anyone thinks....if your all dead?




When your life is threatened because they think you are vicious, abusive, and do not deserve to live...



Stalker0 said:


> And there's a big difference between "all the kids" and "a small group of kids vs the billions of people on a world"




That is the calculus of "the ends justify the means".  If you want to argue that Machiavelli got it right, you are basically making the Kaylon's argument for them.


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## Arilyn (Jul 24, 2022)

And it's "Star Trek."  In these kinds of stories doing the right thing and sticking to your principles is important. Dolly summed it up really well.


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## Ryujin (Jul 24, 2022)

Arilyn said:


> And it's "Star Trek."  In these kinds of stories doing the right thing and sticking to your principles is important. Dolly summed it up really well.



And I love that they not only came back around to Dolly, after the introduction to the group, but also brought her in to take part in the show.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> That is the calculus of "the ends justify the means".  If you want to argue that Machiavelli got it right, you are basically making the Kaylon's argument for them.



More like, "The needs of many must outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"..... aka that thing the beloved Star Trek character Spock loves to say


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## Ryujin (Jul 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> More like, "The needs of many must outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"..... aka that thing the beloved Star Trek character Spock loves to say



... which was ultimately flipped to, "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."


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## Zardnaar (Jul 24, 2022)

Episode was idealistic irl we compromise all the time. 

 Don't look to hard at where your dinosaur juice, clothing and iPhones come from or how your Tesla is produced. 

 Realpolitik 101. 

 I suspect Moclus is gonna get wiped out or at least devastated.

 Kaylon very much in back ground for most of this season. I guess they'll get wheeled out for the final episode or two.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 24, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> ... which was ultimately flipped to, "The needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many."



which is great until the planet where that "the one" resides gets annihilated. So....did you really serve the needs of that one?


I do think we are going too far in this tangent. At the end of the day while the show is "idealized" by making the moral choice we want the world to believe in, rather than the choice that is probably the "correct" choice.... I mean that is a part of what makes fantasy fantasy. We WANT things to be different, where you can make the moral choice and it be the correct one. The reason this got brought up is I appreciated Orville at least presenting this choice in a difficult light, its not a slam dunk "clearly we should do X". They have brought up both sides enough that I can actually feel the weight of the choice.

Same with Havena, her choice was a really difficult one.

I do critique Gordon's outburst because again I just felt it unnecessary, the show had already sold me....both sides were presented, the choice was already shown to be quite hard....aka I got it! Gordon's outburst just felt like pandering to the audience, ok audience we REALLY need you to get that this bad, so we will just spoonfeed that down your throat juuuuust in case you didn't get it the several other times we have brought this up. Again just felt completely unnecessary. But ultimately its a nitpick, it certainly didn't ruin the episode for me.


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## Ryujin (Jul 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> which is great until the planet where that "the one" resides gets annihilated. So....did you really serve the needs of that one?
> 
> 
> I do think we are going too far in this tangent. At the end of the day while the show is "idealized" by making the moral choice we want the world to believe in, rather than the choice that is probably the "correct" choice.... I mean that is a part of what makes fantasy fantasy. We WANT things to be different, where you can make the moral choice and it be the correct one. The reason this got brought up is I appreciated Orville at least presenting this choice in a difficult light, its not a slam dunk "clearly we should do X". They have brought up both sides enough that I can actually feel the weight of the choice.
> ...



Yes, it's idealized. That's the point of a Star Trek like show. So why complain when it is what is baked into the DNA?

Funny thing is that many would seem to need the explicit "that's bad" statement


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## Umbran (Jul 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> More like, "The needs of many must outweigh the needs of the few, or the one"..... aka that thing the beloved Star Trek character Spock loves to say




They aren't really principles if you toss them aside when they aren't convenient.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 24, 2022)

Umbran said:


> They aren't really principles if you toss them aside when they aren't convenient.



Again this where I think the scale of the consequences is not being considered, because we simply aren't used to it.

We normally debate morality and principal and weigh them against much smaller consequences, loss of property or privilege. And in some cases the loss of a single life, or the life of a specific group.

But when you are talking the annihilation of your world, perhaps your entire species (hell in the Orville's case the annihilation of hundreds of worlds and species)..... "isn't convenient" doesn't even scratch the surface, and its disingenuous to think that the standard of a principal has to hold out against any and all possible consequences to be considered a principal.

If I might use a scientific approach for a moment. In my engineering training, we were taught that superheated Steam is water that is heated above the boiling point, often many hundreds of degrees hotter. And for all common cases of engineering, this definition is perfectly useful and correct, with common properties exhibited across many hundreds of degrees of temperature. However, when dealing with temperatures approaching that of a star for example, well now you are entering entirely new phases of matter (plasma being the most common). The definition and properties of superheated steam really does not hold anymore, its a brand new ballgame.


The point being that the case of "utter annihilation" is a consequence so far above the standard that it requires a whole new approach and consideration. A principal that stands up against all lesser consequences is one thing, but then to state it must stand up against this ultimate consequence to be valid.... that to me is no longer morality but insanity.


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## Ryujin (Jul 24, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Again this where I think the scale of the consequences is not being considered, because we simply aren't used to it.
> 
> We normally debate morality and principal and weigh them against much smaller consequences, loss of property or privilege. And in some cases the loss of a single life, or the life of a specific group.
> 
> ...



You don't get a lot of moral ambiguity in a morality play. The hats generally stay white or if they get a little dirty, they're generally bleached back to sparkling white by the end of the story.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 24, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> You don't get a lot of moral ambiguity in a morality play. The hats generally stay white or if they get a little dirty, they're generally bleached back to sparkling white by the end of the story.



Completely agree, and that's why I noted the tangent before....I think the discussion has evolved past the "show" and is now a general philosophical argument. We are only using the orville as a backdrop to discuss what would "actual morality" look like in such a situation, but no longer looking at it as any critique of the show.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 25, 2022)

We don't need to look at the show though as everyone basically compromises their principles by just by existing. 

If you like cheap stuff, dinosaur juice, consumer electronics, buying D&D books off Amazon you've compromised something somewhere.


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## Mallus (Jul 25, 2022)

That last episode was pure classic Star Trek.

It presented both sides of the argument: the right one and the wrong one.

By the end the government threw realpolitik into the trash bin and did the most idealistic thing possible in defense of trans... ahem, Moclan female rights.

So glad this show isn’t a woke mess of real politics!


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## Ryujin (Jul 28, 2022)

Well that episode sewed up some hanging threads and gave my least liked, single-note character a better send-off than they really deserved. All in all I enjoyed it, but it was a step down from the previous episode for me. Looking forward to the final episode, which might be the series finale.


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## Rabulias (Jul 28, 2022)

Yeah they did not wait long to show fallout from the Moclus expulsion last episode. And a resolution I did not expect.

My speculation for next episode is Mercer working to get Anaya some way. Maybe a little obvious from the end of this one?


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## MNblockhead (Jul 28, 2022)

Rather predictable, but quite enjoyable. Isaac's eulogy was the highlight for me.


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## Ryujin (Jul 28, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> Rather predictable, but quite enjoyable. Isaac's eulogy with the highlight for me.



Oh, it was telegraphed from orbit, but still well done.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 29, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Well that episode sewed up some hanging threads and gave my least liked, single-note character a better send-off than they really deserved.



You hated Ten Danson's character that much?


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## Umbran (Jul 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Again this where I think the scale of the consequences is not being considered, because we simply aren't used to it.
> 
> We normally debate morality and principal and weigh them against much smaller consequences, loss of property or privilege. And in some cases the loss of a single life, or the life of a specific group.




Well, the show itself just addressed this question - Season 3 Episode 9, "Domino" gives its answer to it this question rather clearly.  



Stalker0 said:


> If I might use a scientific approach for a moment.




Sure, I'm a physicist.  I can handle it.



Stalker0 said:


> In my engineering training, we were taught that superheated Steam is water that is heated above the boiling point, often many hundreds of degrees hotter. And for all common cases of engineering, this definition is perfectly useful and correct, with common properties exhibited across many hundreds of degrees of temperature. However, when dealing with temperatures approaching that of a star for example, well now you are entering entirely new phases of matter (plasma being the most common). The definition and properties of superheated steam really does not hold anymore, its a brand new ballgame.




Yes, but if we are to use that analogy, we note that when we go from one phase to another, there is a _phase transition_ - the steam ceases to be water molecules, and dissociates into hydrogen and oxygen ions, and becomes a plasma.  That transition is easily identifiable.  It doesn't sneak up on you.



Stalker0 said:


> The point being that the case of "utter annihilation" is a consequence so far above the standard that it requires a whole new approach and consideration. A principal that stands up against all lesser consequences is one thing, but then to state it must stand up against this ultimate consequence to be valid.... that to me is no longer morality but insanity.




I submit that The Orville doesn't think so.  Because the message of S3 E9 was very much that, even in the face of annihilation, sticking to principles is the way to go.


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## Umbran (Jul 30, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Oh, it was telegraphed from orbit, but still well done.




There was a point, when Kelly, Charlie, Isaac, Talia, and Prime are walking down a hall, and I turned to my wife and said, "Oh, crap.  My Genre Awareness is tingling.  I know where this is going."


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## Zardnaar (Jul 30, 2022)

Well the face turn wasn't unexpected the speed of it was though.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 30, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Well the face turn wasn't unexpected the speed of it was though.



With the Kaylon? As AI, you would expect them to make decisions very quickly, and completely.


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## Zardnaar (Jul 30, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> With the Kaylon? As AI, you would expect them to make decisions very quickly, and completely.




 Yeah more pacing of the show not the Kaylon decisions.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 30, 2022)

Mallus said:


> That last episode was pure classic Star Trek.



Not only did it manage to outdo Classic Trek, it also managed to outdo JJ Abrams Trek and Star Wars in the space of one episode.

And EE "Doc" Smith, for those who remember him.

Where is _The Orville_ tabletop RPG?


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 30, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Yeah more pacing of the show not the Kaylon decisions.



Things moved quickly, but I quite liked that. I watched the last episode of _Stranger Things_ immediately after, and boy was it slow in comparison!


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## Zardnaar (Jul 30, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Things moved quickly, but I quite liked that. I watched the last episode of _Stranger Things_ immediately after, and boy was it slow in comparison!




 I liked it just was expecting more build up. That's on me though. It's not a complete 180 and they did make the Kaylons sympathetic.


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## briggart (Jul 30, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I submit that The Orville doesn't think so.  Because the message of S3 E9 was very much that, even in the face of annihilation, sticking to principles is the way to go.




You seem to assume that "protecting the life of trillions of citizens from total annihilation" is not a principle a government should stick to? This is not GOT, so I was expecting there would be a deus-ex to save the day, but it seems weird to me that so many people perceive this as a black-and-white issue, especially how the Kaylon threat was depicted in the show.


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## Arilyn (Jul 30, 2022)

I don't think it was totally depicted as black and white. Charlie's and Gordon's feelings were made clear and relatable. Sticking to principles brought the Union to a hairsbredth of total disaster. Ultimately  the right decisions were made because, like Star Trek, it is a show about optimism and doing the moral thing. This is the message of Orville, afterall. And it's damn good storytelling.


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## Umbran (Jul 30, 2022)

briggart said:


> ...., but it seems weird to me that so many people perceive this as a black-and-white issue, especially how the Kaylon threat was depicted in the show.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty, nor Safety." - Dr. Benjamin Franklin


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## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2022)

Umbran said:


> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty, nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin



To that I would add my own anti-Sun Tzu quote - You don't defeat your enemy by becoming him.


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## Umbran (Jul 30, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> To that I would add my own anti-Sun Tzu quote - You don't defeat your enemy by becoming him.




And another: 
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche


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## Micah Sweet (Jul 30, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Things moved quickly, but I quite liked that. I watched the last episode of _Stranger Things_ immediately after, and boy was it slow in comparison!



That's funny.  I did the exact opposite (Stranger Things first).


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## Umbran (Jul 30, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Where is _The Orville_ tabletop RPG?




Mechanically, any game that supports Star Trek to your liking will do.  _Star Trek Adventures_ or _Ashen Stars_ could do it easily.

Setting is the problem.  That'd have to be published/licensed by the IP holder.

Edit to add:  I can really recommend at least looking at Ashen Stars, if not for the mechanics, then for its advice on session/adventure structure.  It gives guidance of how to do the A-plot, B-plot structure commonly seen in Trek and Orville, but not typically a part of RPG adventure design.


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## Stalker0 (Jul 30, 2022)

Umbran said:


> And another:
> "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." - Friedrich Nietzsche



I wonder if we could go back in time to when the Incan first met the Spanish colonials, show them the destiny of their people, and ask them “do the think peaceful coexistence was the right idea?”….I wonder what they would say.

Again your quotes are assuming a lesser consequence, that becoming a monster is the worst possible scenario. I would argue the entire removal of your species is a just a smidge higher on the “worst case scenario” list. The generations that follow me can always undo the legacy of my “monstrous acts”…but not if there aren’t any generations left.


And hey I love me some Franklin, one of my favorite historical figures, but don’t forget that he was part of a group willing to slaughter people to acquire “meer freedoms”. And top of that list of freedoms, the right to life. If he was in a scenario where the life of all humanity was going to be snuffed out…you don’t think he would call for any and all actions needed to stop that?


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## Stalker0 (Jul 30, 2022)

In terms of the episode, solid, I quite enjoyed it.

I liked that in the end, they did not "convert" Charlie. Though Charlie was able to find the emotional capacity to forgive Isaac (which was a really cool scene) she still fully believed that the Kaylon were a threat so great it was worth taking them out. Yet, at the end of the day, she was an officer and a solider, and she did her duty. She did it not out of any personal desire, but because it had to be done. It's rare to see that in shows sometimes so was cool to see.

I also liked Ted Danson's character. One thing that has always irked me about star trek are the admirals, they are always villainous or incompetent, they always seem to get in the way more than anything. conversely the Admirals on Orville always seem pretty rock solid, I could see a captain looking at them and going "I want to be them when I grow up". In terms of Ted Danson's character "Perry", I appreciated that after he committed his crimes, he didn't try to escape, or try to justify his way out of it. He did what he did out of his pure beliefs, and he then immediately went back to face the music. Now you can disagree with him (and ideally your supposed to in favor of the main side), but I like that they didn't try to weasel him at the end to make him more dislikeable, again they maintained the tough moral quandary they all were facing.

Though I'm enjoying the "moral debate" in the rest of the thread, I understand it is a story after all, and so the idea that the Kaylon would see Charlie's sacrifice and realize their error was a solid way to go. (and it didn't hurt that the Union had the weapon and didn't immediately destroy them, which directly contradicted their beliefs about organics)


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## Rabulias (Jul 30, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Well, the show itself just addressed this question - Season 3 Episode 9, "Domino" gives its answer to it this question rather clearly.



I don't think it's so clear. The Union created the device in the first place, and while Kaylon genocide was not its sole intent, they had to consider the implications of that possibility in its creation. What if the Kaylon had not agreed to a ceasefire and kept fighting? The Union could have very well continued using the device until all the Kaylon were dead (possibly eventually using a similar plan to the Moclan-Krill plan), and I believe this too was a possible outcome the Union were prepared for. Not their preference, obviously, but they would act in self-defense.

Once the device was stolen, the Union felt responsible for its misuse, and informed the Kaylon to honor their ceasefire agreement. I believe this outweighed (just _slightly_) wanting to prevent a Kaylon genocide. What if the Moclan-Krill alliance had created the weapon first? I am sure the Union (if they knew about the device) would have advocated a course of action similar to what they did in the first part of this episode to reach an armistice of some kind, but if the Moclans and Krill refused? Would the Union have made the same effort to stop it? Of course, in that case, the Union is not the one committing the genocide.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> I don't think it's so clear. The Union created the device in the first place, and while Kaylon genocide was not its sole intent, they had to consider the implications of that possibility in its creation. What if the Kaylon had not agreed to a ceasefire and kept fighting? The Union could have very well continued using the device until all the Kaylon were dead (possibly eventually using a similar plan to the Moclan-Krill plan), and I believe this too was a possible outcome the Union were prepared for. Not their preference, obviously, but they would act in self-defense.
> 
> Once the device was stolen, the Union felt responsible for its misuse, and informed the Kaylon to honor their ceasefire agreement. I believe this outweighed (just _slightly_) wanting to prevent a Kaylon genocide. What if the Moclan-Krill alliance had created the weapon first? I am sure the Union (if they knew about the device) would have advocated a course of action similar to what they did in the first part of this episode to reach an armistice of some kind, but if the Moclans and Krill refused? Would the Union have made the same effort to stop it? Of course, in that case, the Union is not the one committing the genocide.



The union would have continued to use it in the way that they initially did; to win specific single battles. They wouldn't have turned in into a genocidal weapon of mass destruction, because that's not who they are. Eventually they might have been in the same position to enforce an armistice with the Kaylon, though after much more shed blood (oil). 

Fortunately that's not a debate we need to have, as it's not what happened in the story. The two, who were in a unique position to create the weapon, were on Orville. If the story had instead played out that way then the morality play would have required that The Union, together with the Kaylon or alone, would have been duty bound to try and disable such a weapon.


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## briggart (Jul 30, 2022)

Umbran said:


> "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty, nor Safety." - Dr. Benjamin Franklin




Isn't that exactly what the Union is doing? The Union with the Moclan support managed to get a stalemate with the Kaylon only thanks to the help of the Krill, which by S3E8 are basically in open war with the Union. The Union by itself was losing 5 ships to a Kylon one, the Krill were doing a bit better at 3-to-1 ratio. So the Union has basically purchased some "little temporary Safety" for few thousand Moclan females, before the Kaylon apocalypse. Not to mention that expelling Moclan from the Union basically means abandoning future Moclan females to their patriarchal society: Bortus originally requested a sex change for Topa, he only changed his mind thanks to his interactions with the Orville crew. 

So again, to me it's not an issue of abandoning your principles, but of finding the most effective way to guard those principles.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2022)

briggart said:


> Isn't that exactly what the Union is doing? The Union with the Moclan support managed to get a stalemate with the Kaylon only thanks to the help of the Krill, which by S3E8 are basically in open war with the Union. The Union by itself was losing 5 ships to a Kylon one, the Krill were doing a bit better at 3-to-1 ratio. So the Union has basically purchased some "little temporary Safety" for few thousand Moclan females, before the Kaylon apocalypse. Not to mention that expelling Moclan from the Union basically means abandoning future Moclan females to their patriarchal society: Bortus originally requested a sex change for Topa, he only changed his mind thanks to his interactions with the Orville crew.
> 
> So again, to me it's not an issue of abandoning your principles, but of finding the most effective way to guard those principles.



Yes, that's exactly what they did, which is what makes it stand out all the more when they decide to do the "right thing." Suddenly they've ended that war.


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## billd91 (Jul 30, 2022)

briggart said:


> Not to mention that expelling Moclan from the Union basically means abandoning future Moclan females to their patriarchal society:



Arguably, by booting the Moclans, they free themselves to take a more active role in doing so since they can now protect the female enclave and no longer need to enforce the agreement to halt the Underground Railroad of Moclan females to safety.


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## Paul Farquhar (Jul 30, 2022)

Umbran said:


> recommend at least looking at Ashen Stars



Thanks for the recommendation, I will check it out.


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## Aeson (Jul 30, 2022)

A trench run scene. 

Use the Force, Lamar.


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## Umbran (Jul 30, 2022)

briggart said:


> Isn't that exactly what the Union is doing?




By coddling the Moclans, the Union was buying safety with the sacrifice of Moclan female liberty as payment.  That safety was temporary - even with the Moclans, the Union was losing.

Only in holding to principles - in not allowing eradication of females within the Union, and then by refusing to become genocidal - was a resolution to the Kaylon threat found.

Some folks are big on leaning into, "doing what needs to be done."  Here, the one person who actually does that successfully does it in an act of self sacrifice to prevent death, not to cause it.


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## briggart (Jul 30, 2022)

billd91 said:


> Arguably, by booting the Moclans, they free themselves to take a more active role in doing so since they can now protect the female enclave and no longer need to enforce the agreement to halt the Underground Railroad of Moclan females to safety.




I was under the assumption that the smuggling took advantage of legitimate traffic between Moclan and the rest of the Union, so that drying up will make things more difficult. But you make a good point, it's possible that the Union will be in position to take more direct steps in helping the Moclan females, especially now that the Kaylon threat seems to be resolved.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2022)

Aeson said:


> A trench run scene.
> 
> Use the Force, Lamar.



That thing had just been sitting in the landing bay, getting in the way, all season. Chekhov's Starfighter.


----------



## briggart (Jul 30, 2022)

Umbran said:


> By coddling the Moclans, the Union was buying safety with the sacrifice of Moclan female liberty as payment.  That safety was temporary - even with the Moclans, the Union was losing.



That to me sounds "the Union is loosing anyway, so they could as well alienate the Moclans", which is different from "the Union should alienate the Moclans, even if it means being exterminated by the Kaylons".  



Umbran said:


> Only in holding to principles - in not allowing eradication of females within the Union, and then by refusing to become genocidal - was a resolution to the Kaylon threat found.




The Kaylon threat was resolved as soon as the device existed. Using the device to eradicate them, force them to an armistice, or it ending up in Moclans/Krills' hands leading to a chain of events  which ultimately changed Kaylons' view of the Union are all effective resolutions of the conflict. If anything, I expect that the Union choices in S3E9 will have a payoff in the resolution of the conflict with the Moclans/Krills, but the Kaylon threat was over regardless of that.


----------



## Aeson (Jul 30, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> That thing had just been sitting in the landing bay, getting in the way, all season. Chekhov's Starfighter.



I thought the same thing.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2022)

Aeson said:


> I thought the same thing.



I kept thinking that they wouldn't use it until the final episode. They beat my estimate by 1


----------



## Stalker0 (Jul 30, 2022)

Probably the biggest surprise was that Kaylon Prime did not get a chance to destroy the device. I mean that was the "obvious betrayal" that was setup as soon as Kaylon Prime joined their team, they would recover the device, Kaylon Prime would try to destroy it. Storytelling 101.

It was a nice change of pace that they didn't go that route.


----------



## Ryujin (Jul 30, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Probably the biggest surprise was that Kaylon Prime did not get a chance to destroy the device. I mean that was the "obvious betrayal" that was setup as soon as Kaylon Prime joined their team, they would recover the device, Kaylon Prime would try to destroy it. Storytelling 101.
> 
> It was a nice change of pace that they didn't go that route.



Noble sacrifice always trumps sudden but inevitable betrayal, in Storytelling 101.









						Firefly Betrayal GIF - Firefly Betrayal - Discover & Share GIFs
					

Click to view the GIF




					tenor.com


----------



## Aeson (Jul 31, 2022)

If Dolly won't come to Hollywood, then bring Hollywood to Dolly.









						Why The Orville Had To Move A Set Across The Country To Make That Dolly Parton Cameo Happen
					

It was worth it.




					www.cinemablend.com


----------



## Argyle King (Aug 1, 2022)

I was a bit behind. I watched Episode 8 (Midnight Blue) this morning.

Wow...

That's seriously one of the best TV episodes of any show that I've seen in a long time. It had touches of comedy with awkward romantic advances; the scenes on the colony reminded me of happy classic musicals; political intrigue; Dolly Parton; shuttle dogfights; and finally getting to see Bortus be the warrior badass that he's been advertised as since episode 1. I could go on.

I'm honestly impressed by the writing, pacing, and cinematography. Incredible episode.

I would dare to say that this one episode was better than entire movies produced by both contemporary Star Trek and contemporary Star Wars.

It even finished a story arc (with Klyden) started in season 1. I legitimately went from having disdain for a character to nearly crying in sympathy with/for them. 

Orville started out as Seth McFarlane's love letter to Star Trek. It grew into a show which many (including myself) felt was a better Trek than what had been offered as ST. Now? It's still clearly inspired by Star Trek, but the Orville has established a name for itself as a sci-fi franchise standing on its own legs and own merits.

Phenomenal episode to continue what has been an incredible season.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 1, 2022)

And you haven't seen episode 9 yet...


----------



## Argyle King (Aug 1, 2022)

I watched Episode 9. Very good episode.

I still think it was a little bit of a dip from E8 -but that's less a criticism of E9 and more of a highlight of how good E8 was.

Brief thoughts:
*•*Even though Teleya is an antagonist, I've come to like her as a character more than Kelly. The skewed romance and animosity between her and Mercer reminds me of Tanis and Kitiara from Dragonlance.
*•*Thus far, Orville tends to do large-scale battles very well. The dogfights throughout this season have me itching to start up another Edge of the Empire game.
*•*Is Kaylon Prime an older unit? It seems to be less purely mechanical than the others. I'm not sure if that's only to serve needing a face for a TV show or if it indicates an actual difference from the average Kaylon.
*•*I'm not sure that the Krill-Moclan alliance has the same menace as the Kaylons. If the show continues with more seasons, I'm curious to see what is presented as an ongoing threat or longer storyline.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Is Kaylon Prime an older unit?



I would assume that is the case.


Argyle King said:


> I'm not sure that the Krill-Moclan alliance has the same menace as the Kaylons.



I don't think the show is supposed to be about "menace".


----------



## Argyle King (Aug 1, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> I would assume that is the case.
> 
> I don't think the show is supposed to be about "menace".




Overall, no. But I do think that having some pressure put on the Union from an outside force added something to the show. Certainly, it wasn't the entire point of the show, but it was an element which added to it, much in the same way that Star Wars has the Empire or various Star Trek shows have had their villain of choice.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> Overall, no. But I do think that having some pressure put on the Union from an outside force added something to the show. Certainly, it wasn't the entire point of the show, but it was an element which added to it, much in the same way that Star Wars has the Empire or various Star Trek shows have had their villain of choice.



The show will be wrapping up soon, and that probably means wrapping up the krill and moclan too. If the show gets renewed it will probably introduce a new threat.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 1, 2022)

Some of you may not be aware that there was supposed to be another episode this season that got cut for covid-schedule reasons.  It was to have followed Season 3, Episode 8, "Midnight Blue", and has been released as a novella by Seth McFarlane, titled _The Orville: Sympathy for the Devil_.  It is available for about $3 as an ebook from Amazon and Barnes and Noble.  The audiobook is narrated by Bruce Boxlietner (who currently plays the President of the Union..

I haven't yet finished it, but... I find myself wondering if it got cut for more than just budget reasons, because...



Spoiler: Maybe some want to read the thing before learning this, really.



...the entire first half of the novella watches a man, from infancy through his rise to _commanding a Nazi concentration camp_.


----------



## Argyle King (Aug 1, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Some of you may not be aware that there was supposed to be another episode this season that got cut for covid-schedule reasons.  It was to have followed Season 3, Episode 8, "Midnight Blue", and has been released as a novella by Seth McFarlane, titled _The Orville: Sympathy for the Devil_.  It is available for about $3 as an ebook from Amazon and Barnes and Noble.  The audiobook is narrated by Bruce Boxlietner (who currently plays the President of the Union..
> 
> I haven't yet finished it, but... I find myself wondering if it got cut for more than just budget reasons, because...
> 
> ...




I think that could have been an interesting counterpart to the episode used to humanize the Kaylon. Showing the horror which humanity is capable of when the wrong path is embraced would be a harsh mirror of who we are as a species, right before an episode discussing mass genocide.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 1, 2022)

Argyle King said:


> I think that could have been an interesting counterpart to the episode used to humanize the Kaylon. Showing the horror which humanity is capable of when the wrong path is embraced would be a harsh mirror of who we are as a species, right before an episode discussing mass genocide.




Yeah.  I think folks would find it harder to stand by Charlie if this had been the episode just before it, at least.

But, on the flip side, the last few episodes are already some pretty heavy stuff.  If they had to cut one, this was probably the one to cut.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 2, 2022)

The big problem with the last couple of episodes is it makes this season's episodes 2 and 3 look really bad in comparison.


----------



## Janx (Aug 2, 2022)

This season hit hard on pretty much every episode. where network TV trek had 24 eps to work with, there'd be a mix of hard and light eps. Not so with Orville. It's "This year, "every episode will make you cry."

And they did.

Part of what's making that work is season 1. I know we all had varying thoughts, but it was rough. One reason was back then, we had no investment into these characters, the setting, or politics.  Now, by season 3, we're seeing all that groundwork pay off.


----------



## Argyle King (Aug 2, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> The big problem with the last couple of episodes is it makes this season's episodes 2 and 3 look really bad in comparison.




I think the early episodes show the progression of the crew. They also introduce more of a human element. Anecdotally, my experience  has been that serving on a long tour of duty with a group looks more like Orville 1&2 than the pristine, prudish, and perfect atmosphere of later Treks.

I believe it is because we were introduced to a deeper and truer version (with faults and foibles) of who the characters were in the early seasons that the audience was able to cry, hate, laugh, love, and succeed vicariously through them.


----------



## Rabulias (Aug 2, 2022)

While I am enjoying this season, I think it is moving a bit too quickly. Lots of big things have been taking place, with dramatic swings in the narrative happening over a just a few months at most.

I think fewer episodes (10 vs 14) this season and the fact that this might be _The Orville_'s final season contribute to this. I think they have had some stories they ultimately want to tell, and if this is their last chance to get them in, they are going to get them in. If we had a guaranteed two or three more seasons, these stories might progress at a less frantic pace. I guess in my head canon I have to pretend there are many "missing episodes" filling in the gaps.


----------



## Mallus (Aug 2, 2022)

Rabulias said:


> While I am enjoying this season, I think it is moving a bit too quickly. Lots of big things have been taking place, with dramatic swings in the narrative happening over a just a few months at most.



It's Babylon 5, Season 4 Syndrome.

I think Seth is trying to complete the major story arcs because it's not clear another season is coming. Though with all the good press this season is getting, I wouldn't bet against more New Horizons.


----------



## Stalker0 (Aug 2, 2022)

Mallus said:


> Though with all the good press this season is getting, I wouldn't bet against more New Horizons.



There will be likely two major factors:

1) Ratings: Press is great, but at the end of the day, are people watching the show? Sci FI is always expensive, and so you need great ratings to justify it. Orville ratings haven't always been great, hence the concern about cancellation.

2) Strange New Worlds: In some ways these shows are doing very similar things. So one executive calculus will be, can the Orville serve as a good competitor to SNW, or with SNW now "consuming that part of the genre", the Orville doesn't have the oomph to compete?


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 2, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> There will be likely two major factors:
> 
> 1) Ratings: Press is great, but at the end of the day, are people watching the show? Sci FI is always expensive, and so you need great ratings to justify it. Orville ratings haven't always been great, hence the concern about cancellation.
> 
> 2) Strange New Worlds: In some ways these shows are doing very similar things. So one executive calculus will be, can the Orville serve as a good competitor to SNW, or with SNW now "consuming that part of the genre", the Orville doesn't have the oomph to compete?



1) Orville is the only currently streaming show for which I have gone back and rewatched recently released episodes. I hope that translates to other viewers, as well.

2) That's a form of calculus that producers and network heads need to remove from the curriculum, in this reality of streaming. y\You aren't competing for a time slot anymore. You _share_ an audience with other shows. If someone else's programme also breeds interest in yours then that's a good thing, not a bad thing.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 2, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> 2) That's a form of calculus that producers and network heads need to remove from the curriculum, in this reality of streaming. y\You aren't competing for a time slot anymore. You _share_ an audience with other shows. If someone else's programme also breeds interest in yours then that's a good thing, not a bad thing.





Yeah, Snarf even had a thread on this, and the overlap of fans of SNW and Orville was, if I recall correctly, quite large.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 2, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Yeah, Snarf even had a thread on this, and the overlap of fans of SNW and Orville was, if I recall correctly, quite large.



I know. I was one of them.


----------



## Rabulias (Aug 4, 2022)

Episode 10 is a solid series finale if it needs to be, but it doesn't close doors so if they get renewed for season 4 (please, Hulu, please!), they have plenty of interesting space (pardon the pun) to explore.

My (failed) prediction of something with Teleya and Anaya for this episode did not come to pass, and that remains territory for season 4, or (if not a full season) maybe a movie or two every now and then (please, Hulu, please!).

Lycella's part of the story felt like _The Orville _in its zone doing good social commentary. Another good message to end on if they must, but I hope we get more (please, Hulu, please!).

Edited to add: In addition to Lycella, there is another special surprise guest this episode:


Spoiler: The Orville - New Horizons Episode 10



Gordon's time-traveling sandwich!

Seriously, it was nice to see Alara again, and her appearance adds to the series wrap-up feel.


----------



## Stalker0 (Aug 4, 2022)

Yay Alara! Cool to see her make a cameo, though I think Keyali has fit in very well now a days, I do miss Alara on occasion.

A solid episode. The comedy was spot on, and I think showcased the balance the Orville found in the last few seasons. In season 1, it was too much "fart joke" style, very crude, and very "forced". Whereas I think the humor later on was more in the mindset of "crewmates being comfortable and relaxed with each other". These are people that work together and live together, and so you pull down some social barriers naturally in that kind of setting which creates natural humor and comedy, and I think that is where Orville found a really nice pocket.

The "Prime Directive" commentary was a solid one, if completely predictable. Did anyone think L'sea wasn't going to try and steal technology? Still it's a nice play having one of the "poor people" giving commentary on the prime directive, no matter how justified it seems to the Union....it will never seem fair to those having to live through it. But the simulator run at the end did a great job showing just how bad it can go when you mess it up, and I think sold the point home very well.

All in all it was a nice humorous wrapup to a very series and heavy season. May the 4th (season) be with them!


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 4, 2022)

Stalker0 said:


> Yay Alara! Cool to see her make a cameo, though I think Keyali has fit in very well now a days, I do miss Alara on occasion.
> 
> A solid episode. The comedy was spot on, and I think showcased the balance the Orville found in the last few seasons. In season 1, it was too much "fart joke" style, very crude, and very "forced". Whereas I think the humor later on was more in the mindset of "crewmates being comfortable and relaxed with each other". These are people that work together and live together, and so you pull down some social barriers naturally in that kind of setting which creates natural humor and comedy, and I think that is where Orville found a really nice pocket.
> 
> ...



It was definitely nice to see a more humour heavy episode again, now that they've found the right tone. Still pulling for another season, though the past few years have been a disappointment in that area.


----------



## Shades of Eternity (Aug 4, 2022)

Yes, we like good scifi and we got an embarressment of riches right now.


----------



## Janx (Aug 5, 2022)

Overall, we liked the new season.

Things we've noticed:
darn near every episode had a song. like a whole song performance. That was kinda weird. This is not a talent show.

the pacing was very meandering, especially the pre-intro starts.  Way too much wandering around and not drilling into what the ep is about (We're picking up a passenger from Season 1!).  Star Treks of old nailed this pacing down for a 45 minute ep. The problem is less about the time limit, and more about the feel of not getting to the point.

For this last ep, the A and B plot did not align/complement/mirror each other. TNG usually did a good job of this (ex. Brothers. the ep where these 2 kids get in trouble AND Lore gets data in trouble).

What I assume is the B plot, interfering with primitive cultures was predictable, and oddly enough too much Telling, rather than Showing.

A big deal was made about the holodeck instead of Movies. And what we get is you can visit other places. Not actualy story telling (interactive movies). That would have shifted the needle for Lcea(sp?). Because A, she needs a career, and holo-novelist could have been it. B, the solution to her problem was being told in a presentation that if we give primitives tech, the mess it up. Imagine if they'd set the simulator up to take her back home and SHOW what happens. Lcea racing to try to counter each step her people took to misuse the tech she'd brought.

Even if she knew it was a simulation, like a game player, she'd still see how she couldn't make it work out as the game modeled jerks being jerks with new toys.

Even the very point told to her, that the people have to change first, could be discovered/realized by Lcea as she tried that move instead.

What we got was simply folks who knew better telling her the answer in different ways, including a scare video.

Just a missed opportunity.


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 5, 2022)

My thoughts on the season:

They appear uninterested in the core draw of the show, exploring new worlds and going where no man has gone before.

Almost every episode this season has been what other shows would call a special episode focused on a particular crew member. That's normally fine, except here... that wasn't the special sauce used to spice up the regular show, here it was... all we got.

Combine this with America's culture war forcing every show to take Big Stands and make Profound Commentary, that simply isn't necessary* for those of us that doesn't live in a society threatened by MAGA morons, and...

It just felt like work, and not enough fun.

*) I simply don't need my entertainment preaching to me that, say, homosexuality is uncontroversial, or that caring for the poor is a basic expression of empathy. I know that already.


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 5, 2022)

I don't mind crude jokes. While I appreciate the nod to Lamarr being a stud (and thinking like a jock) I far prefer the way he handled his conquests in S1 (Ensign Turco) to the boringly mature story involving Kayali

At least "I'll eat you with a glass of grape juice" was so specific it was fun.


----------



## delericho (Aug 5, 2022)

I thoroughly enjoyed the season. The final episode was really not what I expected, but I mostly enjoyed that too (not so keen on the Prime Directive plot, but never mind).

The only thing is that I'm suddenly not so sure I want another season - although it would be a shame to see it go, that episode would make for a really great series finale, so maybe best to let it go rather than risk a decline in quality?


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 5, 2022)

Average episode I suppose they didn't want to end on a cliffhanger. 

 Kaylons were funny. Most of them went to Isaacs wedding lol.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 5, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> They appear uninterested in the core draw of the show, exploring new worlds and going where no man has gone before.



Unlike certain other shows, there is no mention of this in the into.


----------



## Zardnaar (Aug 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Unlike certain other shows, there is no mention of this in the into.




 This it's projecting desires onto the show. 
 Overall been better than Trek last few years.


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> Unlike certain other shows, there is no mention of this in the into.



As if that lets them off the hook.


----------



## Arilyn (Aug 5, 2022)

Loved the Kalons at the wedding. 
Been a great show that's been getting better every season. Hope we get another one, but if not, it was a great finale.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 5, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> At least "I'll eat you with a glass of grape juice" was so specific it was fun.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 5, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> My thoughts on the season:
> 
> They appear uninterested in the core draw of the show, exploring new worlds and going where no man has gone before.




I am pretty sure that's never been the core draw of _The Orville_. 

And also, you know, nobody's ever been to Moclus, or seen its culture before...



CapnZapp said:


> Combine this with America's culture war forcing every show to take Big Stands and make Profound Commentary, that simply isn't necessary* for those of us that doesn't live in a society threatened by MAGA morons, and...




I think it is less about them being "forced" and more about McFarlane wanting to do a thing that Trek has always done - used sci fi as a platform for social commentary.  It is weird for you to say there is a "war" over this, but then assert that the positions don't bear repeating.  Do you think things ever get normalized if they aren't present in the stories we tell ourselves?

And, while you may not need it personally... maybe you do, and by extension, the viewers in general do.  Because right this moment, you're not showing a lot of empathy for folks who can use the representation.  Like, say, trans viewers?  So, if we are apt to miss such a very basic point, maybe we do need it drilled home more.


----------



## Paul Farquhar (Aug 5, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> As if that lets them off the hook.



They were never _on_ the hook. This show was never advertised as being about exploring strange new worlds. That's on the other channel.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> I am pretty sure that's never been the core draw of _The Orville_.
> 
> And also, you know, nobody's ever been to Moclus, or seen its culture before...
> 
> ...



We live in a time in which Shatner is wondering when Star Trek got so "woke" (Hint: *YOU WERE THERE, BILL!*), so a little confusion might be expected.

For me, a person who grew up watching the first run of TOS, it's just a natural progression.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 5, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> We live in a time in which Shatner is wondering when Star Trek got so "woke" ....




So, given a guy who is out of the loop, and language changes, we need to be careful.  Shatner, to my understanding, did not say "woke".  I doubt that word is in his lexicon.  He said "political".

He also said that Trek always gave "social commentary".  What Shatner apparently has missed is that social commentary is now often at the forefront of American politics (which, apparently, he really pays no attention to, since he's Canadian).

Which, is still crummy - if you aren't going to keep up with the time, maybe keep your mouth shut, Bill!  But it doesn't mean quite the same thing.


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> So, given a guy who is out of the loop, and language changes, we need to be careful.  Shatner, to my understanding, did not say "woke".  I doubt that word is in his lexicon.  He said "political".
> 
> He also said that Trek always gave "social commentary".  What Shatner apparently has missed is that social commentary is now often at the forefront of American politics (which, apparently, he really pays no attention to, since he's Canadian).
> 
> Which, is still crummy - if you aren't going to keep up with the time, maybe keep your mouth shut, Bill!  But it doesn't mean quite the same thing.



He may still have Canadian citizenship but at this point I think he has lived in the US longer than Canada (just a guess), and owns a large ranch in Southern California. If I'd been living in the US as long as he has and owned property, I'd be staying up to date on politics.


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 5, 2022)

Paul Farquhar said:


> They were never _on_ the hook. This show was never advertised as being about exploring strange new worlds. That's on the other channel.



Just stop with your ruleslawyering. You're basically arguing the equivalent of saying a show about cops and robbers can suddenly become a teen drama and that's okay as long as it never specifically promises cops or robbers on the tin. You come across as trying to win an argument just for winning's sake.

This show pretty clearly did a huge change, doubling down on personal stories and social commentary in S3. It is an unwelcome shift for me. A show should not forget a personal touch (which is why Strange New Worlds is already superior to Discovery), but almost entirely dumping the central conceit of the show just to explore basic humanity? It is preachy and predictable. It isn't new, it isn't exciting. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I disagree to what is preached, it's that I simply don't need that in my entertainment.


----------



## Umbran (Aug 5, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> If I'd been living in the US as long as he has and owned property, I'd be staying up to date on politics.




Aside from how he's not an American citizen and cannot vote here, has enough money that he has to have people to manage it all for him, the dude is 91 years old.  How many 91 year-olds actually keep up?


----------



## Ryujin (Aug 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Aside from how he's not an American citizen and cannot vote here, has enough money that he has to have people to manage it all for him, the dude is 91 years old.  How many 91 year-olds actually keep up?



Can't speak to any 91 year olds but up until her death just shy of 81, my Canadian mother was keeping up on American politics. In Canada.


----------



## Morrus (Aug 5, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> it's not that I disagree to what is preached, it's that I simply don't need that in my entertainment.



Said the cis white man who doesn’t need representation in our culture. You really don’t get it.


----------



## CapnZapp (Aug 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> Because right this moment, you're not showing a lot of empathy for folks who can use the representation.  Like, say, trans viewers?  So, if we are apt to miss such a very basic point, maybe we do need it drilled home more.



I really don't appreciate you implying a lack of empathy on my part, Umbran.

There can easily be, say, a homosexual character in a show. The problem is not that. It is when the show makes a huge deal out of a basic truth like "hating homosexual people is bad, treating homosexual people like people is good". That's just time spent on what is immediately apparent and obvious to any humane being, which makes for predictable preachy television.

I know some of you think America needs shows that devote their running time to speaking basic truths like this. And some Americans certainly need to hear that (not that I imagine MAGA people watching Orville, but I digress). The point is that I don't need that. I would simply much rather have the show explore some space. 

So you'll have to excuse me if I maintain that I liked previous seasons more. I'm not a secret MAGA troll that gets repelled by representation. I just liked previous seasons more.

There can be other reasons for giving the change in direction for Orville S3 a thumbs down than what occupies most of America these last years. I trust you can see the difference between wanting something other than preaching and "not showing a lot of empathy".


----------



## Umbran (Aug 5, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> This show pretty clearly did a huge change, doubling down on personal stories and social commentary in S3.




They started with Moclans and gender identity in _Season 1, Episode 3 "About a Girl"_.
Also...
Episode 2, "Command Performance" - Mercer/Grayson relationship, personal story.
Episode 7, "Majority Rule" - social commentary.
Episode 8, "Into the Fold" - starting the Isaac/Claire relationship, personal story.
Episode 9, "Cupid's Dagger" - Mercer/Grayson relationship, personal story.

Then Season 2
Episode 1, "Ja'loja" - relationship stuff all over the place.
Episode 2, "Primal Urges" - Moclan relationship story
Episode 3, "Home" - Alara leaves, personal story
Episode 6, "A Happy Refrain" - Isaac/Claire relationship story.
Episode 7, "Deflectors" - Moclan intolerance social commentary story
Episode 10, "Blood of Patriots" - Gordon personal story and extremism commentary
Episode 11, "Lasting Impression" - Gordon falls in love with a hologram, personal story
Episode 12, "Sanctuary" - Moclan female colony, social commentary

Looks like relationships and social commentary were at the forefront a whole lot.


----------



## Janx (Aug 5, 2022)

Umbran said:


> And, while you may not need it personally... maybe you do, and by extension, the viewers in general do.  Because right this moment, you're not showing a lot of empathy for folks who can use the representation.  Like, say, trans viewers?  So, if we are apt to miss such a very basic point, maybe we do need it drilled home more.



Supporting this point, especially the timing, putting Nichelle Nichols on the bridge of the Enterprise is what normalized Black people in important positions.

It inspired Black people that they could be there.

It showed it as normal and perfectly fine for the folks who needed to see that.  Kids were less racist because of Uhura, compared to their parents.

So it is with everybody else who has been historically excluded from being on the bridge.

We need to see it until we see it is normal and perfectly fine there and everywhere.

Because everybody can be on the bridge of the Enterprise.

Now maybe somebody here didn't need this sermon, but if they're arguing they didn't, they did.

Because everybody right with the Roddenberry knows to say Amen.


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## Morrus (Aug 5, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> I really don't appreciate you implying a lack of empathy on my part, Umbran.



I'll just come out and say it, then.

Some groups need representation in our culture. It's a tired, predictable, and selfish trope when random cis white men object to that representation because they don't want 'politics' or whatever in their entertainment. And this isn't the first time I've seen you espouse such opinions. I've seen you do it in the RPG forums too. Hell, I blocked you for about a year due to it, unblocked you and the _very first thing I saw?_ 

There it was again.

Tell you what -- don't do it. Easily solved.


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## CapnZapp (Aug 5, 2022)

Morrus said:


> Said the cis white man who doesn’t need representation in our culture. You really don’t get it.



I'm not sure what to say. It really is a precarious position you are putting me in. If you all are so accustomed to people that resists what Orville S3 has doubled down must be MAGA trolls then I guess you aren't reading what I'm writing, you're reading what you think I'm writing.

_Edit:_ Let me just state the obvious: I am NOT criticizing the Orville for including trans or gay etc people. It could have included those characters without sacrificing what the show is about. There are more and more shows with representation. Good. The Orville, however, chose a clunky focus, which I happen to not give a high grade. Other shows do it much better. That does not mean I "don't need representation". It means I found Orville S3 not very compelling television.

Either way, I realize I have nothing to win and everything to lose in a discussion that basically turns from space fun into "prove you're not a MAGA troll", so let me thank those who liked my post, and see y'all in another thread.


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## Arilyn (Aug 5, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> He may still have Canadian citizenship but at this point I think he has lived in the US longer than Canada (just a guess), and owns a large ranch in Southern California. If I'd been living in the US as long as he has and owned property, I'd be staying up to date on politics.



Not positive but I think he's been an American citizen for many years, not sure he even still has his Canadian citizenship.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 6, 2022)

Orville did the social commentary well the quality didn't suffer. 

 A few shows doing it overcompensate so are bad before they even land eg the trailer. 

 Problem is for every Orville or Sense 8 there's several bad to terrible shows quality wise.


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## Ryujin (Aug 6, 2022)

Arilyn said:


> Not positive but I think he's been an American citizen for many years, not sure he even still has his Canadian citizenship.



Shatner never gave up his Canadian citizenship and never took American citizenship. He just lives there and owns a rather large property.


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## Arilyn (Aug 6, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> Shatner never gave up his Canadian citizenship and never took American citizenship. He just lives there and owns a rather large property.



OK. Just seemed to remember people here in Canada going, of course he became an American! It was probably just gossip flying around.


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## Ryujin (Aug 6, 2022)

Arilyn said:


> OK. Just seemed to remember people here in Canada going, of course he became an American! It was probably just gossip flying around.



I'm also in Canada and was interested whether he had ever done it, so looked into it a while back.


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## MNblockhead (Aug 6, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Orville did the social commentary well the quality didn't suffer.
> 
> A few shows doing it overcompensate so are bad before they even land eg the trailer.
> 
> Problem is for every Orville or Sense 8 there's several bad to terrible shows quality wise.



I agree.  I have to admit, I was getting a bit tired of the moclan story arc, but Episode 8 made it all worth it and feel necessary.  I don't think that episode would have had the impact it did if they hadn't developed the characters and story as much as they did.  I found the social commentary in Discovery more jarring while watching it.  But thinking back, it wasn't any more emphasized than Orville. Probably less. But I just didn't feel as invested in the characters.  Few of the story arcs in Discovery had the payoffs that Orville delivered.  And, apparently unlike most Star Trek fans, I enjoyed Discovery. Not my favorite Star Trek by any means, but I was engaged enough to complete all seasons.


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## Mallus (Aug 6, 2022)

I haven’t finished the final episode yet — didn’t notice it was almost 90 minutes long when I started it late last night — but much respect  to Seth for going out on a classic TNG slice-of-life episode.

Also, the Kaylon Primarch announcing he’s leaving a small contingent to defend the homeworld and bringing the rest to Isaac’s wedding is the funniest thing in the entire show. Even funnier than the leg.


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## Arilyn (Aug 6, 2022)

"Isaac, did you invite ALL the Kalon?"


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## Umbran (Aug 6, 2022)

Zardnaar said:


> Problem is for every Orville or Sense 8 there's several bad to terrible shows quality wise.




Yes, well, Sturgeons Law applies to attempts at representation, too.


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## Umbran (Aug 6, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> prove you're not a MAGA troll"




We know you've left, but just to be clear, the only person to use the term "MAGA troll" was you.  

All the rest of us said was that you weren't showing a whole lot of empathy for others.  As in, maybe, if you felt a bit more for others, you'd see that their need for it _exceeds_ your desire to not have to see it, and you might actually come to like that it is there, for the sake of others.


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## Zardnaar (Aug 6, 2022)

MNblockhead said:


> I agree.  I have to admit, I was getting a bit tired of the moclan story arc, but Episode 8 made it all worth it and feel necessary.  I don't think that episode would have had the impact it did if they hadn't developed the characters and story as much as they did.  I found the social commentary in Discovery more jarring while watching it.  But thinking back, it wasn't any more emphasized than Orville. Probably less. But I just didn't feel as invested in the characters.  Few of the story arcs in Discovery had the payoffs that Orville delivered.  And, apparently unlike most Star Trek fans, I enjoyed Discovery. Not my favorite Star Trek by any means, but I was engaged enough to complete all seasons.




 Discovery had a decent pilot and got better season 1-3. At least until season 4 happened. It's better than a few treks season 1 eg TNG, Voyager and by a few accounts Enterprise. I couldn't finish season 1 of TNG or Voyager they were that bad 

 They didn't do that much social commentary wise like Orville.

 Isaac inviting all the Kaylon was funny along with Bortus and his mates chase scene. Well Bortus in general. 

 Orville didn't really have a bad season and it's dud episodes weren't to bad. 

 Wasn't a great season final but was good enough. If the show ends there it's complete enough.


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## Paul Farquhar (Aug 6, 2022)

CapnZapp said:


> Just stop with your ruleslawyering. You're basically arguing the equivalent of saying a show about cops and robbers can suddenly become a teen drama and that's okay as long as it never specifically promises cops or robbers on the tin. You come across as trying to win an argument just for winning's sake.
> 
> This show pretty clearly did a huge change, doubling down on personal stories and social commentary in S3. It is an unwelcome shift for me. A show should not forget a personal touch (which is why Strange New Worlds is already superior to Discovery), but almost entirely dumping the central conceit of the show just to explore basic humanity? It is preachy and predictable. It isn't new, it isn't exciting. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I disagree to what is preached, it's that I simply don't need that in my entertainment.



This show started out as *a comedy*. If you were to try and argue that session 3 was _lacking in jokes,_ then you might have a valid point (although the last episode tried to make up for that a bit).

And your example is a bad one. there are a great many TV shows that feature police that do not primarily focus on solving crime.


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## Argyle King (Aug 6, 2022)

Morrus said:


> I'll just come out and say it, then.
> 
> Some groups need representation in our culture. It's a tired, predictable, and selfish trope when random cis white men object to that representation because they don't want 'politics' or whatever in their entertainment. And this isn't the first time I've seen you espouse such opinions. I've seen you do it in the RPG forums too. Hell, I blocked you for about a year due to it, unblocked you and the _very first thing I saw?_
> 
> ...




FWIW,

I generally felt that Orville provided commentary without the overly "woke" pitfalls of sacrificing the story to do it. (The notable exception being the last episode -trying too hard to squeeze something into where it didn't fit.)


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## Mustrum_Ridcully (Aug 9, 2022)

Janx said:


> Overall, we liked the new season.
> 
> Things we've noticed:
> darn near every episode had a song. like a whole song performance. That was kinda weird. This is not a talent show.
> ...



I kinda expected this to be a twist - she decides to go back, takes her toys with her, and hands them out to her people, and sees how everything goes bad. And then, when the quantum core bombs hit the city, the simulation ends, and Kelly explains that they knew what she was doing and decided to let her see the outcome for herself. 
I guess it doesn't quite work, because the simulator works in real time and can't do fast forward. If they instead had some kind of virtual reality simulator where you just get some "neural headset" it would work better.

Wouldn't be surprised if something like this was the original idea but they couldn't make it work. 

On a meta-level, obviously this is the fiction behind Star Trek's prime directive and Orville's cultural contamination restrictions.
But neither show really bothered to show the development. I imagine because that's atually difficult to write and show.

And perhaps... It's wrong? The claim is that social and technological development must and will happen hand in hand. I think to some extent it's true - to build nuclear bombs or reactors or the internet it's not enough to have one smart person in a basement. You need a lot of them, and they need a lot of resources that won't be made in their basement. This requires a level of social development where you can even collect such a "critical" mass of people that can build this, which requires a large social group that is able to support them so they can spend all their time with math and experiments rather than growing crops or fending off wild animals or whatever it is that might have plagued most humans in earlier times. 

But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible? We worried about a nuclear holocaust for half a century basically. To our credit - so far we averted it, despite a few close calls. Maybe we are more ready than we think? But we also have been very slow to deal with climate catastrophe, and the jury is still out that we can manage that - and that would suggest our technological development was too fast for us. 
So, I don't know? 

Either way, actually telling that story of how a society destroys itself because it got its hand on alien tech might be worth doing.


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## Horwath (Aug 9, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible? We worried about a nuclear holocaust for half a century basically. To our credit - so far we averted it, despite a few close calls. Maybe we are more ready than we think? But we also have been very slow to deal with climate catastrophe, and the jury is still out that we can manage that - and that would suggest our technological development was too fast for us.
> So, I don't know?
> 
> Either way, actually telling that story of how a society destroys itself because it got its hand on alien tech might be worth doing.



Well, we did use nuclear bomb nine years before we connected 1st nuclear power plant to the grid.
So, that's us...





If someone gives us star trek replicators, we would make an anti-matter bomb out of it.


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## Umbran (Aug 9, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> The claim is that social and technological development must and will happen hand in hand. ...
> 
> But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible?




The claim isn't that if you develop them yourselves, you _will_ be ready.  It is that if you don't develop them yourselves, you _won't_ be ready.


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## Stalker0 (Aug 9, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> But does it mean we're socially also ready to use them responsible? We worried about a nuclear holocaust for half a century basically. To our credit - so far we averted it, despite a few close calls. Maybe we are more ready than we think? But we also have been very slow to deal with climate catastrophe, and the jury is still out that we can manage that - and that would suggest our technological development was too fast for us.
> So, I don't know?



*Power*
The issue with superweapons is it allows an individual greater ability to inflict harm on the masses. There are always "fringe" or "extreme" elements of any society, that believe things woefully different than that society's core. There are for example people on this planet today that would love nothing more to wipe out the entire species.

Back in the day of swords....well they couldn't do too much damage. Today with super plagues and nuclear weapons, should such a group or individual obtain those weapons, the damage they can do is astronomical.

That is the real societal question when it comes to power. Its not about how to have the middle control such power responsibility, that is "relatively easy" in the grand scope (its not easy, but in comparison), it's how do you control or contain the extremes in your society when access to such power is always a risk?

*Greed*
While power is a bigger question of the fringe, greed is something that infects us right down the middle. The climate crisis today is a symptom of a bigger general problem.... exponential growth. Every modern system today relies on it, systems that do not grow collapse. Yet it is simple to show mathematically that such growth is absolutely not sustainable. There is a wonderful article here that outlines it: Galactic-Scale Energy | Do the Math. The TLDR, even at a modest growth rate of 2.3% (which is low by today's standards), we will be consuming the ENTIRE GALAXY's energy output in a meer 2400 years. And of course, earth will have been completely sucked dry long before that.

The big societal question is whether we can materially "ever have enough". Can we craft a lifestyle that is simply "good enough" and allow everyone in the world to enjoy it? That is the crazier question that Star Trek and Orville push, far crazier than laser guns and subspace communications. Can we as a species fundamentally change our drives?

At the end of the day we have three paths we could follow:

Live in a system that constantly grows and then collapses back down. You might assume this is the scenario we live in today, but we control the collapses in our economies well enough that we are more on path 2. A true path 1 scenario would be collapses so great we effectively reset civilization and "start again", which gives earth time to heal and replenish so we can do it all over again.
Consume all resources and enter a permanent state of collapse. This is the current path we are on, the direction is very clear, its just a question of how fast we run out of gas.
Build a steady state economy that does not require growth. This is a huge shift, and would likely be a lifestyle most of us would have trouble reconciling with, for it would be a very different state of being.


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## Ryujin (Aug 9, 2022)

Mustrum_Ridcully said:


> On a meta-level, obviously this is the fiction behind Star Trek's prime directive and Orville's cultural contamination restrictions.
> But neither show really bothered to show the development. I imagine because that's atually difficult to write and show.



ST: Enterprise explicitly showed when Archer first considered the development of a Prime Directive.


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## Umbran (Aug 9, 2022)

Ryujin said:


> ST: Enterprise explicitly showed when Archer first considered the development of a Prime Directive.



Yep:


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## Aeson (Aug 11, 2022)

Holy cow! The conversation went way beyond the show. lol

It's now on Disney + here in the US. That's a chance for those without Hulu to see it.


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## Umbran (Aug 11, 2022)

Aeson said:


> Holy cow! The conversation went way beyond the show. lol




Well, we ran out of show, so...



Aeson said:


> It's now on Disney + here in the US. That's a chance for those without Hulu to see it.




Yep.  And that's a chance for it to get popularity enough for another season.  One can hope, though I feel it is a long shot at this point.


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