# Foresight: Worst 9th Level Spell?



## Drew (Sep 22, 2004)

You'll forgive me if this has been brought up before, but I don't think it has. Am I missing something, or is the Foresight spell not in any way worth a 9th level spell? Its one I've glossed over since 2000, but looking at it now I'm not sure I'd value it as a 5th level spell. +2 to AC and reflex saves for 10 min/lvl and you're never surprised. I think this one should have disappeared with the revision.

Foresight
Divination
Level: Drd 9, Knowledge 9, Sor/Wiz 9
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Personal or touch
Target: See text
Duration: 10 min./level
Saving Throw: None or Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No or Yes (harmless)
This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.
When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves.
Arcane Material Component: A hummingbird’s feather.


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## Droid101 (Sep 22, 2004)

Drew said:
			
		

> You'll forgive me if this has been brought up before, but I don't think it has. Am I missing something, or is the Foresight spell not in any way worth a 9th level spell? Its one I've glossed over since 2000, but looking at it now I'm not sure I'd value it as a 5th level spell. +2 to AC and reflex saves for 10 min/lvl and you're never surprised. I think this one should have disappeared with the revision.



It is a 9th level spell, and therefore the DM should adjucate it as such.  The player who cast it should be constantly updated with mental warnings such as: "If you turn this corner, you will be in danger in 4 minutes."  "Duck in 10 seconds."  "Look above you in 1 minute, 25 seconds and prepare for the worst."  "Don't go down that tunnel, there will be no way out."

Sure, if the DM doesn't do this, then yes, the spell is worth about 5th or 4th level at best.  This spell's worth most definitely depends on the DM.


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## Piratecat (Sep 22, 2004)

I normally disagree with most rules complaints, but this is one I can get behind. As written, it's astonishingly weak. If interpreted as Droid101 suggests, it's much cooler but a pain in the butt for the DM to adjudicate. Bleck.


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## ARandomGod (Sep 22, 2004)

Piratecat said:
			
		

> I normally disagree with most rules complaints, but this is one I can get behind. As written, it's astonishingly weak. If interpreted as Droid101 suggests, it's much cooler but a pain in the butt for the DM to adjudicate. Bleck.




Yea, this is a carryover spell. In it's original incarnation it was a basically a powerful "spidy sense". You get to know things substantially before they happen. And not just of danger, but of things in general. In this they've downplayed the sixth sense part and written out some mechanics that it grants... but it's not what it used to be, at least not as written.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Sep 22, 2004)

I agree with Droid101 and Piratecat.


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## Thanee (Sep 22, 2004)

Drew said:
			
		

> Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself ...




The above is the main effect of the spell.

In many cases, this spell will avoid any unexpected dangers, since you will get an idea about the best possible action to perform in defense.



> You are never surprised or flat-footed and it gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC.




That here is just a bonus.

At least this is how I'd see the spell as a DM.

Besides, to never be surprised is a pretty big bonus at high levels, when the surprise round is like half the combat sometimes. 

Bye
Thanee


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## ForceUser (Sep 22, 2004)

_Moment of prescience_ is a level lower and far superior as a "spidey sense." To put it bluntly, _foresight_ sucks.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 22, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> _Moment of prescience_ is a level lower and far superior as a "spidey sense." To put it bluntly, _foresight_ sucks.




Eh?

Moment of Prescience provides it's bonus against a *single* attack, roll, etc.

Granted, the bonus is (potentially) much higher, but it's still a single-shot.


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## Paragon (Sep 22, 2004)

Agreed!!!!!


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## ForceUser (Sep 22, 2004)

Patryn of Elvenshae said:
			
		

> Eh?
> 
> Moment of Prescience provides it's bonus against a *single* attack, roll, etc.
> 
> Granted, the bonus is (potentially) much higher, but it's still a single-shot.



How often does one get surprised, anyway? In other words, every once in a while an enemy gets the drop on you in a major way, and if you have _moment of prescience_ up, you survive.


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## Patryn of Elvenshae (Sep 22, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> How often does one get surprised, anyway? In other words, every once in a while an enemy gets the drop on you in a major way, and if you have _moment of prescience_ up, you survive.




Uh, no.  You probably survive the first charge by the first enemy - that + CL to your Armor Class being particularly useful.

It is useless against the other 6 creatures with him, however, and cannot be applied to an initiative roll or to a Spot roll that you have already failed.

MoP is useless against surprises.

And, if you're playing "right," surprise happens more and more often as you get higher in level because attacking from ambush becomes the only really effective way to counter a powerful group (either your own party or your targets).


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 22, 2004)

For some threads that have discussed foresight in the past:

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=79903&highlight=foresight (specifically about foresight)

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=89518&highlight=foresight (about over/underpowered spells and includes foresight)

Cheers


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## Saeviomagy (Sep 23, 2004)

ForceUser said:
			
		

> _Moment of prescience_ is a level lower and far superior as a "spidey sense." To put it bluntly, _foresight_ sucks.




Except for the fact that foresight stops the PARTY from being surprised.

If the GM is being a git about it, then you need to cast it on someone else to get party protection - but the "when cast on another" part of the spell is clear: Not only do YOU get at least a surprise round action (because otherwise you wouldn't be able to perform the actions listed), but if your action consists of warning the other individual, then the warning comes early enough for that individual to act on it.

Frankly, I'd say that the spell is going to hand out an automatic surprise round to the party whenever they are about to be attacked, with the added knowledge of exactly what the attack consists of.

So if the attack consists of a evil guy timestopping and then releasing a furious assault, it'd be well within possibility for a well-prepared party with the use of foresight to gather around the wizard and then have the wizard teleport them to a safe locale, totally ruining the assault.

I'd say THAT makes it a 9th level spell.


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## Eremite (Sep 23, 2004)

The way I've DMed the spell is to provide the wizard with fairly detailed warnings of what offensive and defensive preparations he needs to make prior to an encounter.

Of course, this doesn't seem to be in complete accord with the RAW but it certainly makes it a 9th level spell.


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## Li Shenron (Sep 23, 2004)

I actually find _Foresight_ to be a lovely spell, exactly because it gives the DM the chance to help out the party in a very free way.   Clearly, it fits very well only a gaming group where the DM has an important role beside being a simple referee. For the groups which hate surprises and want to keep everything predictable and under control, the spell's only fixed use is very weak indeed.


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## noeuphoria (Sep 23, 2004)

If I was DMing that spell, I might be inclined to give the foresighted player a little "snapshot" of what the NPC's/enemies were planning to do.  Something like "Ok, on your initiative, you have a vision of the enemy wizard shooting a green ray that reduces your cleric into ashes.  You also see a rogue turn visible behind you, and begin stabbing you in the kidneys.  Lastly, you see the orcish barbarian charge you, trip you onto the ground, and stab you with his greatsword."  Basically, you just told them the actions the npc's were planning to take that round.  These might change based on your party's actions, but at least you know the wizard has _disentigrate_ and there's an invisible rogue hopping around.


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## VirgilCaine (Sep 24, 2004)

Eremite said:
			
		

> The way I've DMed the spell is to provide the wizard with fairly detailed warnings of what offensive and defensive preparations he needs to make prior to an encounter.
> 
> Of course, this doesn't seem to be in complete accord with the RAW but it certainly makes it a 9th level spell.




In 1e, it used to be essentially "Hand the player the module."


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## Elrik_DarkFury (Sep 24, 2004)

I personally prefer the Cone of Oblivion spell from relics and rituals  .

________________
The Wizard


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## BSF (Sep 24, 2004)

Huh, imagine if Agar had Foresight up and running in Piratecat's latest update in his Story Hour.  How would that have changed the combat so far?  

Moment of Prescience wouldn't have been terribly useful by comparison.

Yeah, the spell is written pretty poorly.  It is also a spell that has an effect that a lot of people might not like.  If this were HERO, it would be a power with a Stop sign discussing the impact of allowing it in your game.


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## Ridley's Cohort (Sep 24, 2004)

BardStephenFox said:
			
		

> Huh, imagine if Agar had Foresight up and running in Piratecat's latest update in his Story Hour.  How would that have changed the combat so far?




OTOH Foresight might warn Agar that he really, really wants to cast that same spell anyway.


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## Plane Sailing (Sep 24, 2004)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> In 1e, it used to be essentially "Hand the player the module."




No no no! Read the first thread I linked to above for more info!


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## Dthamilaye (Sep 24, 2004)

The way I see it works, and how I DM it IMC is as follows:

1)
Player says: " I'm going to open that door"
And I go: "You feel no impending danger from the door, but there is strong danger behind the door"
(Ie, no traps in door, nothing accidental is going to happen, like getting the door frame on his head, but behind the door is a nasty CR 20 monster.

2)
Player says "I'm gonna cast Disintegrate on that wizard there"
And I go: "You sense danger in doing that"
(Ie, the enemy wizard happens to have Spell Turning on himself that would turn the disintegrate back to the player)

3)
Player says: "I'm going to walk that narrow bridge to the other side of the chasm"
And I go: "You feel danger in crossing the bridge and greater danger by crossing the chasm"
(Ie, the bridge is old and would crumble by the weight of the player. However, there is a nasty CR 20 Tentacle monster in the chasm that will try to eat everyone crossing the chasm.)

4)
Player says: "I'm going to give this information about the murderer to the mayor."
And I go: "You feel impending danger in doing that"
(Ie, the mayor himself has assigned the murder and if he finds out that players know too much, he will try to eliminate the players right away)

5)
Player says: "I'm going to give a finger to that Solar"
And I go: "Well, nothing dangerous will happen"
(Ie, the Solar just won't be bothered about one finger)

6)
Player says: "I'm gonna jump through that black portal"
And I go either: "Well, no danger in sight" or "Great danger awaits", depending  where the portal goes (Outlands and Negative energy plane, respectively)

7)
Player says: "I drink that odd looking stuff from the pool"
And I go "No danger" or "Danger" or "Great danger" , depending what might happen. (Heal, alignment change and Implosion, respectively)

Notice that the warnings that the spell gives, are not completely clear. The player just know that there is danger coming out for him soon. 

This 'soon' is the difference that I could see some DMs would have. I usually keep it as immediate. Do something and in 1-5 rounds, something will happen. If the mayor would take a day or two to assign the death of the players, Foresight would not warn about it (IMC). The example above happens only, if the mayor calls his guards and puts the players to jail or tries to kill them.


This is how it should work. And I kinda hate it, as it reveals too much to the players. They always know if there is something bad behind a door, or if ANY action they make will be dangerous to them.
Of course, they sometimes need to brave the dangers to go forward, but at least they know when to prepare and when there is no need.
When this is combined with Find the Path, the 'adventure' becomes a 'tunnel run' . If they just know the place where they want to go, they will know the shortest way there, know all the mazes and puzzles, if there are any, will know every time when something dangerous if going to happen and have time to prepare.


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## ASH (Sep 24, 2004)

The way the spell is written, yup. Sucks royally... But I suppose it could me semi-houseruled to be more of a DM revealing spell. I would prefer it to be house ruled, and changed to give the spell description a more specific outcome...rather than just let the DM run with it differently every time..Its hard to take a spell that you are not totally sure of what its supposed to do in any situation. So, darnit Drew, house rule the spell for our group. Make it worth while...
We will help.


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## AGGEMAM (Sep 24, 2004)

Foresight unfortunately is one of those spells which usefulness and power is totally up to the DM mood.

When DMing it remember that it should be as useful as any other 9th level spell such as Wish or Miracle. That's pretty powerful, so you're going to reveal a lot info you normally wouldn't but that life. Be sure to only tell the person whose character is casting the spell the info, or the usefulness of it might suffer, especially for evil characters.


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## Ferret (Sep 25, 2004)

For a ninth level spell I would play it like the scene from Minority Report. Where she tells the man to do stuff, meaning they get away.

Thats what a ninth level spell does.


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## dcollins (Sep 25, 2004)

VirgilCaine said:
			
		

> In 1e, it used to be essentially "Hand the player the module."




Actually, the spell did not exist in 1st Ed.


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## Voadam (Sep 26, 2004)

I enjoyed it a lot in 2e when I was playing a high level wizard merchant prince. 


10 minutes/level of "you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself."

Instantaneous warnings of impending danger and knowledge of what action to take to protect yourself for at least 170 minutes.


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## Li Shenron (Sep 27, 2004)

AGGEMAM said:
			
		

> Foresight unfortunately is one of those spells which usefulness and power is totally up to the DM mood.




Which I think it's not a bad thing at high-level play


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