# Dragonborn Paladin starting stats



## daddystabz (Jun 11, 2008)

In my first 4e character I've made thus far I had the Dragonborn Paladin starting stats set to:

Str 18
Con 12
Dex 12
Int 8 
Wis 13 
Cha 16

I was trying to use the 18 in str to hit more often since attack bonus is huge in 42 and I also wanted to be able to do my share of damage to foes.  I was hoping to be really good in Cha for my powers and good in Wis also for the same reason.  Int is a dump stat.

However, the following starting stats seemed quite intruiging and seem to be well balanced as well:

STR 16
CON 14
DEX 12
INT 8
WIS 14
CHA 16

Which starting stats do you all feel is overall best/optimal for a Dragonborn Paladin and why?


----------



## Surgoshan (Jun 11, 2008)

Depeneds, really.  The extra +1 to hit definitely helps, but +2 to Con and +1 to wis is nothing to cry about.  The extra con gives him 2 HP and a whole healing surge and the extra wisdom boosts the effects of his powers.

Question: Which is better?
Answer:  Yup.


----------



## Lurker37 (Jun 11, 2008)

Are you intending to focus on Str-based powers, Cha-based powers, or dabble in both?


----------



## False Keraptis (Jun 11, 2008)

For the love of god, keep the 18 in str!  I would drop your con down to 10 to add a point to Wis - the pally gets plenty of healing surges as it is.


----------



## Wik (Jun 11, 2008)

Nah, you'll want the high con, if only so you can use your breath weapon effectively.  We ran that in play today (our first 4e game), and the weapon took out three minions in one go, and the dragonborn then made an attack that wiped out the fourth.

Personally, dexterity as a dump stat is where to go, along with int.  You don't need the high dex, as you'll be wearing plate anyways.  And few of your powers are based off dex, anyways.  If both Dex and Int are low, though, you'll have an achilles' heel in your low reflex.  Something to keep in mind.

High strength is nice, though.  Remember that pallies get a minor action at-will that lets them add their strength modifier to an attack... couple that with pretty much any of their at-wills, and they're adding twice their strength modifier to every attack they make.  Our own Dragonborn Pally did just that - dealing 1d6+6 on an average attack, each round.


----------



## Nifft (Jun 11, 2008)

You want an 18 in either Strength or Charisma, and a 14 in Wisdom. The rest all depends on what feats you want. You do not need 16s in both Strength and Charisma -- you'll only be attacking with one or the other.

Cheers, -- N


----------



## phil500 (Jun 11, 2008)

I prefer taking 

18 str, 18 cha, 12 wis and 12 con.

d-born pally is the only race/class which can take 18's in both main attack stats.

the cha lets you multi into warlock.  the breath is a nice encounter power, esp with the feat to make it 5 by 5.

thats the most versatile char i can think of- defender with striker multi and an anti-minion power.


----------



## daddystabz (Jun 11, 2008)

But low Dex means no Astral Fire and now Blade Opportunist! Also, aren't you gimpling your Dragon Breath and some of your Paladin powers by a kind of low Wis score, Phil500?

How about 

Str 18* (+4), Con 12 (+1), Dex 11 (+0), Int 8 (-1) , Wis 14 (+2), Cha 16* (+3)

Would I still be able to get Astral Fire and Blade Opportunist with this loadout?


----------



## phil500 (Jun 11, 2008)

dragon breath is for killing minions.

im not sure about astral fire or blade opp, havent thought out the build past that.


----------



## bjorn2bwild (Jun 11, 2008)

unfortunately, both astral fire and blade opportunist require dex 13


----------



## bjorn2bwild (Jun 11, 2008)

unfortunately, both astral fire and blade opportunist require dex 13


----------



## daddystabz (Jun 11, 2008)

bjorn2bwild said:
			
		

> unfortunately, both astral fire and blade opportunist require dex 13





Right...and all I will need to do is add 2 pts into Dex with my starting stats and I will be set!

I will have to check what lvl I will be able to get 2 pts into Dex at.


----------



## Lurker37 (Jun 12, 2008)

Heres some comments just from what I've noticed in the rules, and a bit of fiddling with spreadsheets. Actual play may vary, and if it does I'm keen to hear of it, and even more keen to understand why:

You'll need to increase any stat you use to hit with at every chance you get. So if you plan to use both Str and Cha based powers, that means that all your stat increases are already spoken for.

Dragonbreath will become useless for minion-clearing if it's not linked to a primary stat - imagine needing an 18 to hit even minions by level 28. Even as it is, while you start off rolling 8 or 9 to hit, even with a primary stat that started at 18 (with racial bonus) you end up needing to roll 13 to hit the average monster at level 30 (DMG  p42). 

Since most powers that give you a bonus to hit require hitting and damaging the enemy first, it seems to me that minions will either be at full defences or dead. Has anyone found a feat ability that would give dragon breath a better chance to hit without damaging the target first?

Also consider how it will feel to play the character. Str-based paladins are mainly about smites with weapons - they need to close to melee range (several powers help with this) and their weapon influences their damage. Cha-based paladins will be casting spells prayers with their holy symbol more often than they're swinging their weapons - they feel more like the 3E cleric in some ways. The problem I see with this is that as defenders they'll usually have monsters in their face, meaning that any ranged or area power will provoke an OA. If you want a mix of these powers then you'll need to keep both Cha and Str as high as possible, while still wanting high Wis for the bonuses to some powers and at least some Con bonus for dragonborn racials.

Cha-based pladins also suffer because (assuming they make will secondary to maximise the effect of their Cha powers) both their level-increased stats go into Will defence. Str-based paladins increase stats that feed both Fort and Will, so will have two good defences instead of one.

As I said at the start - if I'm wrong in any of my observations I'm very keen to hear about what I'm doing wrong.


----------



## Victim (Jun 12, 2008)

Wik said:
			
		

> High strength is nice, though.  Remember that pallies get a minor action at-will that lets them add their strength modifier to an attack... couple that with pretty much any of their at-wills, and they're adding twice their strength modifier to every attack they make.  Our own Dragonborn Pally did just that - dealing 1d6+6 on an average attack, each round.




Divine Strength is an encounter power, not at will.


----------



## Kichwas (Jun 12, 2008)

Obviously a little different than a Dragonborne, without the breath weapon... but for my half Elf I've been considering:

St 12
Co 14
Dx 12
In 10
Wi 14
Ch 18

Or:
change:
St to 8
Wi to 16

Other than when I have to make a basic melee attack, Str is useless as far as I can tell as I'm going all protection / cha. At level 11, will probably go into Justicar. I considered Champion of Order for the double marking, but it has two str powers that would be useless... A hard choice.

Power path:

Enfeebling Strike
Bolstering Strike
Shielding Smite
Radiant Delirium
-
Martyr's Blessing
-
Righteous Smite
-
Hallowed Circle or Sign of Vuln
-
Divine Bodyguard
-
Beckon Foe
-
Radiant Pulse
-
Noble Shield
-
Entangling Smite
-
True Nemesis
-
Angelic Intercession
-
Hand of the Gods (if I Divine challenge A, and then use this on B next to A, can I get 2 marks as both are hit satifying Divine Challenge needs?)
-
Corona of Blinding Radiance
(Righteous Inferno is bad as it causes them to flee, and a paladin wants to get hit)
-
etc... I pathed up to 20.


----------



## daddystabz (Jun 12, 2008)

Str is not a dump stat for a Paladin.  Some of their prayers allow them to add their str to attacks and many of their other abilities are based on either Str or Cha or Wis.


----------



## KarinsDad (Jun 12, 2008)

Our DP did:

Str 18
Con 12
Dex 13
Int 8 
Wis 14 
Cha 15

This allows him to bump up Dex in order to get decent Reflex saves, Shield Specialization at 11th, and Heavy Blade Specialization (or whatever it is called) at 21st.

His stats at 28th level would be:

Str 26
Con 14
Dex 18
Int 10
Wis 16 
Cha 20

At that level without magic or feats or powers (just Shield Specialization as a defensive feat), he would be:

AC 35 (normal Plate Armor, not Warplate or anything)
REF 30
FORT 33
WILL 30

The problem with dumping both Int and Dex is that Reflex saves (and inits) suffer.

Balancing stats is all about pros and cons. But this allows a Defensive Paladin to not have any glaring weaknesses, and to gain some feats that he is normally shut out of. Sure, Wis and Con are not adding a lot to his abilities, but an extra point or so there doesn't do as much as good Reflex saves. IMO.


----------



## Blackbrrd (Jun 12, 2008)

daddystabz said:
			
		

> Str is not a dump stat for a Paladin.  Some of their prayers allow them to add their str to attacks and many of their other abilities are based on either Str or Cha or Wis.




Roughly 50% of the paladin powers are Str based, and 50% cha based. If you just pick cha based powers you can dumpstat str and put those points in for instance wis, consititution and dex.

The powers are usually str + wis OR cha + wis. I haven't seen any with str + cha.


----------



## BradfordFerguson (Jun 12, 2008)

I have to agree with Blackbrrd,

You either want Str + Wis or Cha + Wis.  Having high str & high cha is a waste.  Very seldomly does it look like you need both high str and high cha in terms of paladin powers.  Wisdom does matter with powers that key off of Str or Cha, however single powers never (?) power off of both Str & Cha.

I agree that dragon breath is good at getting rid of minions, but that is also what a wizard should be good at?

for paladin: Str seems better at damage dealing.  Cha seems better at helping out allies, but is still good at damage dealing.


----------



## mneme (Jun 12, 2008)

Lurker37 said:
			
		

> You'll need to increase any stat you use to hit with at every chance you get. So if you plan to use both Str and Cha based powers, that means that all your stat increases are already spoken for.



Well, except, for, if you're planning on epic levels, the +1s across the board (and, since there are 7 stat increases 1-30, the odd points from the last three boosts; if you want an optimized 30th level char, you need to take the last three round in a circle unless you started with odd stats).  This does mean that if you're planning for epic feats requiring a 13, you need to start with an 11, or a 12 for Paragon feats requiring a 13.



			
				Lurker37 said:
			
		

> Dragonbreath will become useless for minion-clearing if it's not linked to a primary stat - imagine needing an 18 to hit even minions by level 28. Even as it is, while you start off rolling 8 or 9 to hit, even with a primary stat that started at 18 (with racial bonus) you end up needing to roll 13 to hit the average monster at level 30 (DMG  p42).



Dragonbreath will nearly always be linked to a primary stat -- it keys off any physical stat, and -most- classes Dragonborn want to play have a physical stat they care about.  (exceptions: DB Fey Warlock, DB Cha paladin).  Also, don't forget that it A. attacks reflex, and B. autoscales by tier.  A 30th level, non-demigod character DB who started with an 18 in in a primary trait will have a +8 bonus in their primary stat, +6 for DB's inherent bonus, plus 15 = 29.  I don't think p42 is that useful, so I'll look at some l30 critters -- The Ancient Red Dragon has a reflex 43, so you hit it on a 14 (unless you're a fighter, and hit it on a 13); much more often than you hit its AC of 48 with the same bonuses plus a proficiency bonus.  The Tarasque has a more reasonable Reflex of 38, so you'll hit it on an easy 9.  Much more importantly, the highest level minion we have is the Lich Vestage, level 26, with reflex 40 -- a 26th level non-fighter can have a +8 stat bonus, so is at +27 base, hitting on a 13, without bonuses.  That's not that bad, but it's easy enough to boost with helper powers, I think.  (which given that minion's defenses, you might want anyway.  Vestages are pretty tough to take down!)



			
				Lurker37 said:
			
		

> Cha-based paladins will be casting spells prayers with their holy symbol more often than they're swinging their weapons - they feel more like the 3E cleric in some ways. The problem I see with this is that as defenders they'll usually have monsters in their face, meaning that any ranged or area power will provoke an OA.




Cha based paladins are an interesting beast, actually.  They do tend to attract attention, but as ranged defenders, their best bet is actually to challenge a foe in melee (but not marked by) another character, or ideally more than one.  The monster's then got the fun choice of charging past several defenders (drawing mutliple AoOs) to get at the happy paladin, or sit there, attack in melee, and take a pile of damage every round.  A lovely choice...for the PCs.  There are also a bunch of Cha melee/close attacks available to the Cha-based paladin -- all the paragon Cha attacks are melee or burst, frex.  Actually, going down the list, the -only- level where there -isn't- a melee or "close burst, enemies only" attack is 15. That's it, though there also isn't a 1st level Daily non-ranged attack (but both 1st level enounter attacks are not ranged, and the all the 1st level Paladin at-wills are melee).  The only needs a Cha-paladin has for Str are Divine Strength (after all, not -all- monsters drop saves you need to save Divine Mettle for) and AoOs.

The defense question is interesting--a Cha-paladin -will- have a lower total set of defenses than a Str-paladin -- but they'll also be very, very flexible -- with big close (and -selective-) burst effects, healing, buffing (Divine Wrath FTW!), melee, debufs, etc--like a wizard, they trade defense for more flexible offense.  Really, the only thing they're missing is a Magic Missile equivalent--give them a Cha-based At-will attack that counts as a basic attack and they're G2G.  (beyond that, well, go with at least 14 Str, 14 Wis, and 18 Cha and they're decent enough, even with weak attacks of opportunity, particularly with great blast effects if enemies try to mob them, and ranged and marking if enemies ignore them).


----------



## Kichwas (Jun 12, 2008)

Lurker37 said:
			
		

> You'll need to increase any stat you use to hit with at every chance you get. So if you plan to use both Str and Cha based powers, that means that all your stat increases are already spoken for.




An avenging paladin, basically a DPS toon (damage per second), yes, but a protection paladin is more interesting in being a target - and in a min/max game, in any choice between increasing your chance to be focused on and dealing out damage, the protection paladin should choose chance to be a focus - which really does mean, max out Cha and Wis and gimp Str. Cha for your powers, Wis as it boosts up so many of the Cha powers.



			
				mneme said:
			
		

> Cha based paladins are an interesting beast, actually.  They do tend to attract attention, but as ranged defenders, their best bet is actually to challenge a foe in melee (but not marked by) another character, or ideally more than one.  The monster's then got the fun choice of charging past several defenders (drawing mutliple AoOs) to get at the happy paladin, or sit there, attack in melee, and take a pile of damage every round.  A lovely choice...for the PCs.
> ...
> The only needs a Cha-paladin has for Str are Divine Strength (after all, not -all- monsters drop saves you need to save Divine Mettle for) and AoOs.
> ...
> The defense question is interesting--a Cha-paladin -will- have a lower total set of defenses than a Str-paladin -- but they'll also be very, very flexible




Honestly don't see myself, on a Cha paladin, -ever- using Divine Strength. The other Channel Divinity powers are -always- better options for my role in the group - defending and making myself the prime target.

A protection based paladin, which is the Cha line, is not there to deliver hits and damage, but to take hits and damage. You want to be dangerous to ignore, but you don't need to be so dangerous if they pay attention to you. In fact you are -more- effective if you can be less harmful if paid attention to, because that encourages critters to pay attention to you.

I've actually been thumbing through my book noting down all the ways I can -give- enemies combat advantage against me. Trying to find every trick in the book I can to paint a big bullseye on my character.

Even if I have to charge into the middle of them and lay down prone... for a protection paladin, that's actually a wise tactic. (and similar to what goos prot paladins in World of Warcraft do, btw).

The purpose of a defender is to say "hey, hit me, not those other guys!" so that the rest of the group can then unleash the full potential off all their offensive abilities while the cleric spams healing on me without having to split the heals up between me and several others - or at the least, having to burn as few as possible on others.

A final note, in my Cha pally build to 20 on page 1, if I recall right, all of the abilities I took are about swinging my weapon. None of them about prayers.


----------



## Lurker37 (Jun 13, 2008)

Having re-read the paladin class and actually planned out a couple of builds, one for Str and one for Cha, I've reached the following conclusions:

I was wrong about Cha-based being mainly a caster. As others have pointed out, it's a pretty good mix of types with plenty of weapon attacks and close attacks. Only a couple of powers will provoke OA.

Str-based powers don't use Cha, and vice-versa. Wis is useful for both, but moreso for Cha-based it seems, although this depend on the actual powers chosen.

Needing both Str and Cha is only going to happen if the character deliberately takes a mix of Str and Cha based powers. Both builds can do quite well without taking cross-picks except for Str-based paladins at level 9.

Str-based paladins have fewer powers to chose from, only having one Str-based power at many levels.

Being able to have more than one target marked requires using powers that need to hit the target(s). Likewise many other attacks that can disable or distract the enemy by doing things like pushing, weakening, dazing or blinding them require a successful attack. I'm not convinced that a Cha-paladin is better off dropping prone than potentially striking every adjacent enemy blind. Add powers like "any attack you make will also hurt you, bypassing your immunities" and suddenly I _really_ want to be able to hit the enemy as a Cha-based Paladin.

Dragonborn without a Con bonus waste one of their racial powers (Con bonus adds to Healing Surges.) 

Dragonborn without a primary or secondary physical stat will really struggle to hit equal-level minions (Edit: With their Breath Weapon) in the epic tier. (Let's say the highest started at 12, so went up to a mighty 14. That's +23 to hit at level 30. That means a 17 or better to hit those Lich Vastages, who are a full four levels lower.)

Looking at the powers that Wis bonus affects, some of them look _really_ nice to have a high Wis bonus for. I'm just torn between that and having a second high defense score, given how much difference 3 or 4 points makes to the math now. 

Is it worth losing some points in Wis bonus (with all it grants to paladin Cha powers) to pump up another stat? If so which one? Str because of the racial +2? Con for healing surges and hit points? Would it even be worth considering Int for a rituals or Dex for initiative?  

I'm less concerned about the Breath Weapon since I noticed Cha-based paladins get some burst[>1] attacks, but I would still be quite disappointed to have such a thematic power be essentially useless at high levels since it would still be attached to a stat that had fallen behind the curve.


----------



## Kichwas (Jun 13, 2008)

I'm starting to think Dragonborn make better Avengers than protectors because of the breath weapon issue. Essentially, it becomes a racial power that they aren't able to maximize.

Con bonus to Healing Surge is rough for a paladin. After you max out Str (or Cha), then Wis, your next step is Con, and just how high can get it after the other two... To be honest when I read that racial power on Dragonborn I came away thinking it was underpowered. Even if you had high Con, like a fighter, even at 18. Is a +4 to healing surge really equal to what other races get?

I'm a little disappointed that there aren't more Str based paladin powers. It reminds me a bit of the situation in Warcraft, where there's a notable bias in the abilities for Protection over Retribution. I just hope that Avengers play out as strong as Protectors (unlike the situation in WoW - where the only good paladins at endgame are Protection line, the class making poor raid healers and poor damagers).

Remember that for a Protection based paladin, Cha adds to to-hit for the at-wills, so they shouldn't have any trouble laying waste to minions. Add to this powers like Radiant Pulse (and the other level 9 dailies which hit everyone in burst), Just Action, Challenge the Unjust, Righteous Inferno (pretty much only useful for swamps of minions as it damages on a miss at burst 2 - useless otherwise as any survivor will flee and avoid you until you turn it off, defeating the point of being a defender), and others.


----------



## daddystabz (Jun 13, 2008)

So would I be better off trying to get say like a 16 in both Str and Cha and maybe a 13 or 14 in Wis to start off with as a Dragonborn Paladin for my starting stats instead of maxing Str to 18 and building like this:

Str 18* (+4), Con 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1) , Wis 13 (+1), Cha 16* (+3)
(+2 to Str and Cha from Racial bonuses)?


----------



## Blackbrrd (Jun 13, 2008)

Lurker37 said:
			
		

> ...
> Dragonborn without a primary or secondary physical stat will really struggle to hit equal-level minions in the epic tier. (Let's say the highest started at 12, so went up to a mighty 14. That's +23 to hit at level 30. That means a 17 or better to hit those Lich Vastages, who are a full four levels lower.)
> ...




Why would he struggle to hit if he hasn't got a high physical stat? He will be using Cha to hit instead. As you mentioned yourself, you can go exclusively Cha powers.

Personally I would have low str, high con on a cha-based paladin. Which means, a half-elf would work very well.

What a cha-based paladin misses out on is opportunity attacks until he gets to level 11+ when he can take a feat that lets him use at-will powers instead of basic attacks for OA.

A cha based paladin also lacks good ranged options. (there is no reason to bump dex high enough to make it good)


----------



## Destil (Jun 13, 2008)

Nifft said:
			
		

> You want an 18 in either Strength or Charisma, and a 14 in Wisdom. The rest all depends on what feats you want. You do not need 16s in both Strength and Charisma -- you'll only be attacking with one or the other.
> 
> Cheers, -- N



Not at level 9 you won't.

(There are no Str powers at 9, I'd recommend fighter or warlord multiclass, the possibly retrain them away out once you can drop your level 9 daily if you go Str).



			
				daddystabz said:
			
		

> So would I be better off trying to get say like a 16 in both Str and Cha and maybe a 13 or 14 in Wis to start off with as a Dragonborn Paladin for my starting stats instead of maxing Str to 18 and building like this:
> 
> Str 18* (+4), Con 12 (+1), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1) , Wis 13 (+1), Cha 16* (+3)
> (+2 to Str and Cha from Racial bonuses)?




Dragonborn are odd, because they really like Con. Especially paladins... who already suffer from MAD.

That's not a bad build, but I'd personally tank Cha to 12 (+2 for 14) and get Wis higher, possibly split the difference between Wis and Con. A Str based paladin gets some bonus for Cha...


----------



## Lurker37 (Jun 13, 2008)

Blackbrrd said:
			
		

> Why would he struggle to hit if he hasn't got a high physical stat? He will be using Cha to hit instead. As you mentioned yourself, you can go exclusively Cha powers.




Sorry. I was referring to the Breath Weapon, but forgot to mention that. I've edited my post.




			
				Blackbrrd said:
			
		

> What a cha-based paladin misses out on is opportunity attacks until he gets to level 11+ when he can take a feat that lets him use at-will powers instead of basic attacks for OA.




I must be missing something. The only feat like that I can see is the heavy blade one, but it requires high scores in Str and Dex.

Actually, isn't that a serious flaw in a Cha-based Paladin? They have to use Str for OA, but since Str is low...


----------



## mneme (Jun 13, 2008)

*MAD about Paladins*

Lurker: re OA: oh, yeah.  Er, didn't I mention this? Biggest problem a Cha-based Paladin has is crap OAs; if they could take an at-will that was a basic Cha-based melee attack with no specials, they'd take it every time (and were I running, I'd probably add it to the list; it's a perfectly balanced power that fits the archetype).

The level 9 problem isn't -that- much of a problem for a Str-based Pally.  Actually, check that; yes; yes it is.  From levels 1-14, there are only two Str dailies--Paladin's Judgement and Martyr's Retribution.  So the Str Paladin is stuck spending two feats multiclassing (almost certainly -- to Ranger or Fighter, likely.  Maybe Cleric?) or having to load a Chr daily she can't afford to maintain.

There's another MAD issue with the Paladin, now that I think on it.  The Paladin is all about healing surges.  I mean, really -- the Paladin's a defender, which means she takes hits and needs to be healed (spend healing surges), plus she has the ability to spend her healing surges to heal someone else, plus she has powers like Martyr's Retribution (which costs a healing surge for an above-level attack), Bloodied Retribution (Good attack, but requires that you need a healing surge -- and lets you spend one), and Death Ward (costs a healing surge for good, level-scaled, but limited healing...heh; I can so totally see a paladin and a rogue (or anyone, but it's funnier with a rogue) teaming up to "heal" a badly wounded comerade.  "ok, you hit him.  Once he's dying, I'll heal him up nicely before he's at risk!").  So there's good reason for a Paladin to want a high-constitution; they -do- stuff with their healing surges, even if they don't take all that much damage due to the ability to wear Plate at first level (and FWIW, I totally disagree that the paladin wants to be beat on; due to the healing surge mechanic, -nobody- can tank for the party in 4e.  The paladin wants to put the enemy in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" position; ideally one where some enemies bounce off the Pally's armor, and others attack friends and get zapped by the Paladin's Divine Challenge; remember, the Challenge is strictly worse than the Fighter's challenge if it never does damage).  However, the Paladin only has one more Surge than the fighter does, and has no use other for constitution (unless she's a Dragonborn) other than HP and feats (and that need is drastically reduced by starting with Plate).

So a Paladin wants Str (for OAs, if nothing else) Con (for extra healing surges, if nothing else), one of Dex or Int (for reflex defense/init.  Or more likely, you get a paladin with the same Achilles heel as every other paladin, as init isn't really that important for the paladin and bumping a ref/AC stat -just- for reflex defense is a bad idea), Wis (for lay on hands and boosting nearly every Paladin power) and Chas (for Divine Challenge, if nothing else).

All that said, the Paladin is still a pretty cool class, capable of doing defense, minion killing, good damage, healing and buffing.

I suppose you might say that the Paladin has stayed true to her roots in 3.5 -- as the most MAD class there is.


----------



## Regicide (Jun 13, 2008)

mneme said:
			
		

> There's another MAD issue with the Paladin, now that I think on it.  The Paladin is all about healing surges.  I mean, really -- the Paladin's a defender, which means she takes hits and needs to be healed (spend healing surges),




  Maybe...  the paladin can give themselves a lot of temporary hit points.  Maybe not effective at higher levels, but at low levels a paladin could walk out of a lot of combats with almost no damage on them despite having been hit a lot.


----------



## Jack of Shadows (Jun 13, 2008)

arcady said:
			
		

> Obviously a little different than a *Dragonborne*, without the breath weapon...




OK,

Total threadjack but just because of that small typo I am now compelled to create a Dragonborn Rogue who was found floating in the sea and has no memory of his past. I'll call his quest the Dragonborne Conspiracy.

JoS


----------



## mlund (Jun 13, 2008)

As people have already mentioned, for optimization you usually pick either Strength or Charisma and then back up your choice with Wisdom.

You CAN structure a build that tries to balance the two, but it is kind of a waste since you won't have any good opportunities to boost your Wisdom otherwise.

You could do an initial point-buy like this:

S17 C10 D13 I8 W14 C17 and then dump your level 4 bumps into STR and CON to get your 18s, but you're much better off with this buy, IMO: S12 C12 D12 I8 W16 C18, then picking up Astral Fire at Level 4 or as a Paragon level retrain when your Dexterity bumps up to 13 automatically.

- Marty Lund


----------



## daddystabz (Jun 16, 2008)

Here is version 2 of my Dragonborn Paladin. Please let me know what you think and feel free to critique/point out any errors/give advice, etc!

Name: Kriv Level/Alignment: Lvl 1 Lawful Good Paladin
Race: Dragonborn Class: Paladin
Role: Defender Deity: Bahamut
Size: Medium Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Normal Height: 6’8”
Weight: 315 lbs. Languages: Common, Draconic
HPs Gained/Lvl: 6 Build Type: Protecting Paladin
Armor Proficiencies: Cloth, leather, hide, chainmail,
scale, plate; light shield, heavy shield

Weapon Proficiencies: Simple melee, military melee,
simple ranged

Implements: Holy symbol
*Racial Abilities: +2 Str, +2 Cha. Dragonborn Fury: When you’re bloodied, you gain a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls. Draconic Heritage: Your Healing Surge value is equal to one-quarter of your max hit points + your Con modifier. Dragon Breath: You can use Dragon Breath as an encounter power.

Ability Scores
Str 16* (+3), Con 14 (+2), Dex 12 (+1), Int 8 (-1) , Wis 14 (+2), Cha 16* (+3)
(+2 to Str and Cha from Racial bonuses)
Defenses
AC: 20 (10+8 from Plate Armor+ 2 from shield bonus + ½ Char lvl)
Fortitude Defense: 14 (10+Str mod+1 from paladin + ½ char lvl)
Reflex Defense: 14 (10+Dex mod+ 1 from paladin, +2 from shield bonus + ½ char lvl)
Will Defense: 14 (10+Cha mod+1 from paladin + ½ char lvl)

Hit Points: 34 (5 extra included from Toughness feat)
Bloodied: 17
Healing Surge HP Healed: 10 (1/4 max HPs + Con mod)
Healing Surges/Day: 12

Initiative: +1/-3 overall when in plate armor and Heavy Shield equipped (1/2 lvl + dex mod – armor check penalty)
Action Points: 1

Equipment
Plate Armor: Armor Bonus + 8, Check – 2, Speed – 1, Weight 50 lb.
Longsword: +3 to attack, 1d8 dmg, Weight: 4lb, Heavy Blade, Versatile
Heavy Shield: Shield Bonus +2, Check – 2, Weight 15 lb.
Standard Adventurer’s Kit: Backpack, Bedroll, Flint and Steel, a Belt Pouch, 2 Sunrods, 10 days worth of Trail Rations, 50 ft. of Hempen Rope, a Waterskin
Lantern: Weight 2 lb.

Money: 18 gold

Skills
Religion (Int)+4

Heal (Wis)+7 

Endurance (Con)+7/+3 in plate armor and with Heavy Shield equipped)

Prayers

Encounter Powers:

Dragon Breath 

Channel Divinity: Divine Strength 

Channel Divinity: Divine Mettle 

Fearsome Smite 


At Will Powers

Divine Challenge 

Lay on Hands 

Valiant Strike

Enfeebling Strike 

Daily Powers

On Pain of Death

Utility Powers

Feats
Toughness


----------

