# So even the brain dead can graduate grade school



## sabrinathecat (Jun 14, 2014)

There was a big fluff piece on the news last night. Last December a girl was hit by stray bullets from a driveby and was rendered brain dead. The parents struggled against the doctors to have her kept alive.

The schools made a big fuss about how the girl would have graduated. It seemed so ridiculously pathetic and meaningless. "We're honoring her." How can the girl graduate without finishing the work? And in 6 years, will she get to graduate high school without taking a single class?
It might make the parents feel better, but is this really meaningful?
Or am I just cold, heartless, and insensitive?


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## Umbran (Jun 14, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> How can the girl graduate without finishing the work?




You know that pretty much every University around gives out honorary doctorates, right?



> It might make the parents feel better, but is this really meaningful?




Is it basically just a gesture?  Perhaps.  But to those in grief - the parents, the friends, the teachers -  gestures matter.  Showing you care matters.    Humans are social creatures, and emotional support from others helps us get through tough times.  It won't make it all better, but it'll help them cope just a little bit more.

So, is lifting a bit of the pain and suffering in the world meaningful?  Answer that, and you'll know if you're cold and insensitive.


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 15, 2014)

So, you don't think it invalidates or diminishes the accomplishments of those who did the work and put in the efforts?


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## trappedslider (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> So, you don't think it invalidates or diminishes the accomplishments of those who did the work and put in the efforts?



based on this the answer to this 



sabrinathecat said:


> Or am I just cold, heartless, and insensitive?




is yes


Aside from that, it doesn't look like it's that much of a big deal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorary_degree



> The degree is often conferred as a way of honouring a distinguished visitor's contributions to a specific field or to society in general. It is often given to graduation speakers at a university or college, and the university may derive benefits by association with the person in question. The degree is not recognized by employers as having the same stature as a corresponding earned doctorate degree and should not be represented as such. It is sometimes recommended that such degrees be listed in one's CV as an award and not in their education section, and some institutions of higher education have policies on the use of the title "Dr" in formal correspondence.




All kinds of famous folk seem to get one http://erichmarre.net/famoushonorarydoctors.html

here's Harvard's list http://www.harvard.edu/honorary-degrees

So in this case as Umbran said,  it was a feel good  gesture.


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## was (Jun 15, 2014)

It may be an empty gesture to make the parents feel better.  It might also help bring closure to some of her friends and classmates. Either way, it doesn't really diminish anybody  Since probably 99% of the public graduates from elementary school, it's not really a recognition that most people fondly cherish for the rest of their life.  It will, however, be something that the parents will remember for the rest of theirs.  Especially since the chances are good that their child will not live to see a high school graduation.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> So, you don't think it invalidates or diminishes the accomplishments of those who did the work and put in the efforts?




Possibly, but if it brings some comfort to grieving parents then that's a small price to pay.

You also have to remember the culture: there's a lot of fakery and theatricality about US culture - the synchronised applause/standing ovations at the State of the Union, the weird terminology for college students, the obsession with titles - so this is probably quite culturally-appropriate, as I am learning more and more as the years go by that I live in this former US colony with its own particular take on US-inspired fakery/theatricality.

So, yeah, I wouldn't do it and I would find no comfort in it in the same situation but I can understand how someone there (or here) might find it a meaningful experience.


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## dante_121 (Jun 15, 2014)

I seriously doubt anyone would have their nose out of joint over this. I mean seriously, if it does anything to make the poor parents feel a little better that their daughter is being remembered I am all for it. 

I think the real question is what sort of person is getting upset by this?


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 15, 2014)

someone who thinks (insert political activity) is more newsworthy and or important? And that maybe the news should have just let this be something private instead of filling up time with a tear-jerker fluff piece?

And those honorary degrees are for people who still accomplished something. Being on life support for a year doesn't sound like much of an accomplishment, especially when you were not given any choice or say in the matter.


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## Umbran (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> So, you don't think it invalidates or diminishes the accomplishments of those who did the work and put in the efforts?




In a word, no.

Setting aside how, while you seem to be a bit weak on the subject, the world at large understands the concept of an honorary diploma.  And if I get you right, we are talking about grade school.  Hardly the greatest height the majority of her classmates will reach.

By your report, a young girl had her self ripped away untimely.  By comparison to that, any loss others may suffer by including her is... diddly squat.  It seems to me that accepting the lost soul alongside her classmates, without being so selfish as to worry about what it says about you, is itself an achievement.

So, if her fellow grade-schoolers don't mind, maybe you shouldn't worry too much about it, hm?


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## dante_121 (Jun 15, 2014)

So now your issue is that was reported. To start with your issue was that she was awarded her certificate.

I think more than anything, I have not lost a child, and it's not our place to judge what parents want to do to remember their child.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> There was a big fluff piece on the news last night. Last December a girl was hit by stray bullets from a driveby and was rendered brain dead. The parents struggled against the doctors to have her kept alive.
> 
> The schools made a big fuss about how the girl would have graduated. It seemed so ridiculously pathetic and meaningless. "We're honoring her." How can the girl graduate without finishing the work? And in 6 years, will she get to graduate high school without taking a single class?
> It might make the parents feel better, but is this really meaningful?
> Or am I just cold, heartless, and insensitive?



Why does it bother you so much?


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 15, 2014)

Let's simplify here.

Item 1: award of achievement without merit. 
Item 2: tv news fluff reporting

Item 1 a problem? debatable.
Item 2 a problem? absolutely

I might have had fewer problems with item 1, if not for item 2


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## JamesonCourage (Jun 15, 2014)

I am totally and completely okay with the news talking about humans being good to other humans. Because that's much more what my life is about.

Yes, I'm interested in reading politics, philosophy, economics, and (to a lesser degree) science. But I'm very interested in how people can be good to one another. That's so much more representative of my personal life than any article about politics, economics, or science.


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## trappedslider (Jun 15, 2014)

JamesonCourage said:


> I am totally and completely okay with the news talking about humans being good to other humans. Because that's much more what my life is about.
> 
> Yes, I'm interested in reading politics, philosophy, economics, and (to a lesser degree) science. But I'm very interested in how people can be good to one another. That's so much more representative of my personal life than any article about politics, economics, or science.




Don't forget it also gives hope that the human race isn't filled only with jerky jerkfaces...As Samwise Gamgee said “There is some good in this world, and it's worth fighting for.” and fluff pieces prove that  IMO


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 15, 2014)

"Which makes him what I'd like to call 'One of Bart's People'."

One reason it all rang so false was that every kid interviewed in the piece all said the same thing, like they'd been taught a catch phrase about "honoring her" without being told or taught what it means.


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## billd91 (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> someone who thinks (insert political activity) is more newsworthy and or important? And that maybe the news should have just let this be something private instead of filling up time with a tear-jerker fluff piece?




Considering the news generally follows the mantra "if it bleeds, it leads," having a human interest piece keeps the news from being a constant drag. Plus, it reminds us how we're supposed to value humane sentiments like compassion. So, yes it is newsworthy and it is important.



			
				sabrinathecat said:
			
		

> Or am I just cold, heartless, and insensitive?




Apparently.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Let's simplify here.
> 
> Item 1: award of achievement without merit.
> Item 2: tv news fluff reporting
> ...




1) the award is honorary, not merit based, and everyone understands this.  Like a funeral, this was less about the "honoree" and more about the emotional state of the family and friends of the "honoree".  It is a ceremonial healing of wounds within the community.

2) to paraphrase, good must not only be done, it must be seen to be done.  Using a little airtime on the news or column space in a periodical to show humans tending to the emotional needs of others reveals a good thing to those beyond the immediate scope of the event.


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## dante_121 (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> "Which makes him what I'd like to call 'One of Bart's People'."
> 
> One reason it all rang so false was that every kid interviewed in the piece all said the same thing, like they'd been taught a catch phrase about "honoring her" without being told or taught what it means.




I think there are better things to get morally outraged about mate, like murder rates, starving children etc. maybe direct your outrage to things like that instead of a dead child getting an honorary high school diploma.


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## Scrivener of Doom (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> "Which makes him what I'd like to call 'One of Bart's People'."
> 
> One reason it all rang so false was that every kid interviewed in the piece all said the same thing, like they'd been taught a catch phrase about "honoring her" without being told or taught what it means.




Most catchphrases exist to obviate the need for any sort of critical thinking. 

I think you are really missing the point, though: this isn't about bestowing a meaningless award on someone who is not worthy of it - I would point you to the syncronised and choreographed applause at your State of the Union for examples of displays of utter emptiness - but offering some sort of comfort to the parents in a culturally-appropriate way.

And it's not like they're handing out a free PhD: this is just a grade school certificate.

As for modern media, I am Australian so I must apologise for Rupert Murdoch. Then again, he's a US citizen now. He's your problem.


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## Janx (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> So, you don't think it invalidates or diminishes the accomplishments of those who did the work and put in the efforts?




I'm pretty sure the non-dead kids do not feel like they have been shown up by the dead kid.  Most kids get the fact that the dead kid and retarded kids aren't on stage for the same reasons.


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## Mallus (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Or am I just cold, heartless, and insensitive?



I'd go with d) looking for attention by adopting a thorny contrarian persona online. For my money, that's better than a) cold, b) heartless, and c) insensitive any day of the week!

Umbran nailed this in post #2. This has nothing to do with the poor girl's achievements. It's to help -- in some small feeble way -- her parents, loved ones, and the rest of the community.


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 15, 2014)

Attention seeking & picking a thorny issue? No, that's more of an OTTer thing.
The way it was reported really did bug me.
And the implications of honorary degree (in any form) bug me as well.

Most kids don't have a problem with the Pledge of Allegiance either. Of course, they aren't (well, I wasn't) taught about the state-sponsored prayer aspect until much later. Had I known, even at 6, I would not have participated.
As for helping the community? Yeah, I don't get that. The Family maybe. But the community? Maybe because I'm not a joiner.

Unfortunately, most of the outrages I'd rather tear into are not permitted on this board. (Though I would suggest watching "Dirty Wars")


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> So, you don't think it invalidates or diminishes the accomplishments of those who did the work and put in the efforts?



Do you feel this has invalidated any of your achievements?


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Let's simplify here.
> 
> Item 1: award of achievement without merit.
> Item 2: tv news fluff reporting
> ...



Could you explain why you have a problem with 1? 
Why do you have a problem with 2?


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 15, 2014)

All honorary degrees diminish those who have worked to earn legitimate degrees.

I've gone over the fluff reporting several times already.

And how, exactly, does this help people "heal"? It seems to me more like a be a slap in the face of something that won't ever happen.


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> All honorary degrees diminish those who have worked to earn legitimate degrees.



How? When you apply for a job, are you competing with people that have honorary PhDs? Have yo lost a job to someone with an honorary degree? Does it make your degree worth any less to those that are hiring you?



> I've gone over the fluff reporting several times already.



Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see what you identify as a problem with "fluff" pieces. 



> And how, exactly, does this help people "heal"? It seems to me more like a be a slap in the face of something that won't ever happen.



Different people grieve in different ways. They also get closure in different ways. How do you grieve?


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## Umbran (Jun 15, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> All honorary degrees diminish those who have worked to earn legitimate degrees.




No, they don't.  Because, as stated, pretty much everybody but you understands that they are different beasts.  

But, even if they weren't.  A young girl was ripped from herself untimely.  Any "diminishment" that her fellow sixth graders will experience via having to share their sixth grade diploma with someone who has passed is diddly-squat compared to what the girl lost.  So, really, a sense of perspective is in order.



> And how, exactly, does this help people "heal"?




If you honestly do not understand the basic interactions of human mourning, you probably need more assistance on the matter than can be given in a short-form, plain-text medium.  If you really want to know, I recommend speaking to a mental health professional or grief counselor about it.  They'd likely do a better job of describing it than we can.

But, we can try, I suppose.  There are a few ways such a memorial might help:

1) Generalized emotional support.  As I said upthread, when someone is grieving, or under great stress, the plain statement that others in the community care is assistance.  Humans are tribal animals, and we can draw emotional strength from support given by others.

2) There is a certain amount of mental processing that must occur for humans to get past a major emotional loss in a healthy manner.  Memorials of this form can often assist that processing, by giving it a framework, and marking at least one of the milestones that was expected, but was aborted.

3) You noted in the OP that this was the result of a drive-by shooting.  That means it wasn't just a random accident, but a community-centered one.  There is crime within the community that caused this.  Failing to come together over it may well allow fear and cynicism to bake that much further into the community, which can be part of a negative-feedback spiral.


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## dante_121 (Jun 15, 2014)

Dude, build a bridge and get over it.


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## Umbran (Jun 16, 2014)

dante_121 said:


> Dude, build a bridge and get over it.




Or, perhaps less dismissively - if you don't understand something, and you ask others, don't buck their answers.


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## Elf Witch (Jun 16, 2014)

In my senior year of high school one of my friends was hit by a drunk driver and left to die in a ditch. He had been a popular student a member of the marching band and student government. 

He was awarded his diploma with the rest of the graduates ,accepting his was his younger sister. There was a standing ovation and many tears when she came up to accept it. I know that it meant a lot to his family and his friends it was a way of sharing our loss or grief and remembering him and having part of that special day. 

As for the news covering feel good fluff stories all I have to say is thank god because without them it is all to grim it is nice to be reminded that good things happen in this world too.


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## trappedslider (Jun 16, 2014)

Honestly, I think this just shows how cynical and jaded you have become about humanity.


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 16, 2014)

trappedslider said:


> Honestly, I think this just shows how cynical and jaded you have become about humanity.




I think that's the first honest and useful criticism I've received in weeks.
Thank you.


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 16, 2014)

And for the record, it seems I confused two stories from about the same time. The girl getting the honorary grad was in a coma & brain dead after botched tonsillectomy. The drive-by happened a week later, and that child was killed.

Trying to find the fluff-piece that annoyed me so you could see what I was talking about. Found all sorts of things (including the Global News and World News that sound like they are being read by computers), but not that fluff piece.


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## Dioltach (Jun 16, 2014)

Here's a question: is their any doubt that the girl would have graduated anyway? Is there some kind of pass/fail exam to finish grade school in the States?


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 16, 2014)

Dioltach said:


> Here's a question: is their any doubt that the girl would have graduated anyway? Is there some kind of pass/fail exam to finish grade school in the States?




In some states yes, in others, no.


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 16, 2014)

Used to be you needed a pulse and to have made at least some effort.
Don't know what the requirements are now, but they seem to have dropped.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 16, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Used to be you needed a pulse and to have made at least some effort.
> Don't know what the requirements are now, but they seem to have dropped.




As others have said, you're comparing apples and oranges.

The degrees you earn have real economic value.  They open doors to jobs and/or higher education. 

These honorary degrees do none of that.  They are purely ceremonial, and awarded for a variety of reasons.  Sometimes, they're awarded to a fallen member of a class.  Sometimes they are awarded in recognition of RW experiences or even contributions to a field- like a "lifetime achievement award".  Its a feel-good thing.


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## Janx (Jun 16, 2014)

Elf Witch said:


> In my senior year of high school one of my friends was hit by a drunk driver and left to die in a ditch. He had been a popular student a member of the marching band and student government.
> 
> He was awarded his diploma with the rest of the graduates ,accepting his was his younger sister. There was a standing ovation and many tears when she came up to accept it. I know that it meant a lot to his family and his friends it was a way of sharing our loss or grief and remembering him and having part of that special day.
> 
> As for the news covering feel good fluff stories all I have to say is thank god because without them it is all to grim it is nice to be reminded that good things happen in this world too.




To add  to this concept of recognizing a fallen student, why assume the award is just for the family.  Teachers are impacted emotionally by the death of a student.  Students are impacted.  Schools are communities as well.  So this kind of thing is part of the school's way of coping with the loss as well.


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## Janx (Jun 16, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Used to be you needed a pulse and to have made at least some effort.
> Don't know what the requirements are now, but they seem to have dropped.




I'm sorry to inform you, but if you can't tell the difference between handing a dead kid a piece of paper and promoting a batch of thugs who can't read to the next grade, then that's indicative of a problem with prioritizing concerns.

If you don't understand why a family or community may choose to recognize someone they've lost, you might be a sociopath.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 16, 2014)

"If you don't understand why a family or community may choose to recognize someone they've lost, you might be a sociopath."


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 16, 2014)

So by not seeing the point of something "purely ceremonial" or "feel good", I might be a sociopath?

Hmmm.
Maybe part of why I never manage to feel like a joiner?


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## trappedslider (Jun 16, 2014)

I wouldn't go that far...I'd just say that due to only experiencing the icky part of humanity you have lost the ability to see the good.


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## Umbran (Jun 17, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> So by not seeing the point of something "purely ceremonial" or "feel good", I might be a sociopath?




What you've suggested is a bit beyond "I don't see the point" and is a bit more to, "I don't understand how this might help *anyone else* either".  

Maybe not so much a sociopath as a Vogon.  Curmugeonliness can be taken too far, you know.


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## Vyvyan Basterd (Jun 17, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Or am I just cold, heartless, and insensitive?




As a parent I can think of many more appropriate descriptors. But you've proven in the rest of the thread that you're not worth getting banned over. At least I won't have to read any more TV/Movie rants from you.


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## Scorpio616 (Jun 18, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> I might be a sociopath?



If you were one, you'd know better than to mention it where it can be traced back to you.


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## Janx (Jun 18, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> So by not seeing the point of something "purely ceremonial" or "feel good", I might be a sociopath?
> 
> Hmmm.
> Maybe part of why I never manage to feel like a joiner?




if not sociopath, perhaps one of those autism-variants.  the kind that makes you functional, but not quite relatable with the rest of humanity.  

I have a sociopath on my team and used to have another guy with a different thing where he couldn't look people in the eye or easily talk to people, but he could focus on technical details (he had a real thing, i can't remember what its called, something-berger's I think).

As I can't name what you have, obviously I'm not qualified to diagnose you.  But you are exhibiting traits of some kind of social issue.  I hesitate to call it a problem or disorder, but I suspect there's a name for it.  

Assuming you do have a Thing, if it's not causing you problems, I wouldn't worry about it.  Just be aware that it may cause you to look at things in ways that make other people look at you funny.  My sociopath only seems to hurt bike couriers because there's a legal vector for it, otherwise, he's mostly safe.


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## Dannyalcatraz (Jun 18, 2014)

Janx said:


> if not sociopath, perhaps one of those autism-variants.  the kind that makes you functional, but not quite relatable with the rest of humanity.
> 
> I have a sociopath on my team and used to have another guy with a different thing where he couldn't look people in the eye or easily talk to people, but he could focus on technical details (he had a real thing, i can't remember what its called, something-berger's I think).
> 
> ...





Were you thinking Asperger's, perhahps?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

Actually, AFAIK, none of us here is qualified to diagnose whether someone is or is not sociopathic or has Aspberger's- or any other disorder beyond being a grumpier person than we are usually talking to.  And even if we were, it's unethical to actually diagnose someone over the Internet...


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Jun 18, 2014)

Janx said:


> if not sociopath, perhaps one of those autism-variants.  the kind that makes you functional, but not quite relatable with the rest of humanity.



I highly doubt he meets the criteria for either. 



> I have a sociopath on my team and used to have another guy with a different thing where he couldn't look people in the eye or easily talk to people, but he could focus on technical details (he had a real thing, i can't remember what its called, something-berger's I think).



What you are referring to is Asperger's Disorder, which is no longer its own diagnosis. It has been folded into the Autism Spectrum Disorder diagnosis. 



> As I can't name what you have, obviously I'm not qualified to diagnose you.  But you are exhibiting traits of some kind of social issue.  I hesitate to call it a problem or disorder, but I suspect there's a name for it.



Couldn't Sabrina just be a jerk? Why do people automatically believe that because someone acts differently, they must have some mental disorder?


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## Homicidal_Squirrel (Jun 18, 2014)

Dannyalcatraz said:


> it's unethical to actually diagnose someone over the Internet...



Well, that depends. There are various ways to use the internet to perform assessments. Webcams and such are very helpful, and it's possible to provide mental health services through telemedicine/telehealth methods. There are certain assessments that can be conducted through a webcam, as long as you have a trained administrator with the subject.

In any case, trying to diagnose someone based solely on an internet forum post is unethical, if you are seriously trying to diagnose the person. You certainly couldn't charge the person, and you definitely shouldn't try to treat the person.


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## Janx (Jun 18, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> I highly doubt he meets the criteria for either.




I'd need more notes on Sab before I could armchair diagnose him.  He doesn't think much of humanity, can't seem to understand the situation in this thread, and is very very picky about what Nerd Genre stuff he likes.



Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> What you are referring to is Asperger's Disorder, which is no longer its own diagnosis. It has been folded into the Autism Spectrum Disorder diagnosis.




And that's why I said autism-related, as I knew what you just said but couldn't remember the name.  I clearly left enough clues so you and Danny could finish my thought.



Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Couldn't Sabrina just be a jerk? Why do people automatically believe that because someone acts differently, they must have some mental disorder?




I haven't seen traits of jerkiness from Sabrina in my dealings with him.  just because he can't fathom why the rest of us think it's OK to hand out diplomas to dead people, doesn't mean he acts like a jerk to people.

I'm not wholly sure that whatever he's got (assuming its something to have) is a disorder, so much as a batch of wiring that doesn't enable him to relate to other humans.  And that's overly broad and thus likely to be wrong.  I can't put my finger on it, but something's different with Sab's wiring.  I don't think it gets in the way of Sab's life, so I don't see it as a disorder. Just different.

There's been threads where Topic X has a majority of people siding with Y and a few people with oppose it on grounds that seem very counter to average human response.  I suspect these some of these cases may be indicative of one of these diagnosable traits (rather than simple political differences).

Or not.


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## Janx (Jun 18, 2014)

Homicidal_Squirrel said:


> Well, that depends. There are various ways to use the internet to perform assessments. Webcams and such are very helpful, and it's possible to provide mental health services through telemedicine/telehealth methods. There are certain assessments that can be conducted through a webcam, as long as you have a trained administrator with the subject.
> 
> In any case, trying to diagnose someone based solely on an internet forum post is unethical, if you are seriously trying to diagnose the person. You certainly couldn't charge the person, and you definitely shouldn't try to treat the person.




I think there's also a difference from observing that somebody's behavior is kind of socipathic, than declaring that somebody has a medical condition based on some forum posts.

I'm too lazy to look up the definition for sociopathy, but my internal impression is that it includes an element of cruelty.  My pet sociopath likes to take out bike messengers who ride on the sidewalk because it is illegal to ride on the sidewalk and when a cop is called, he gets off scott free while the bicyclist gets a ticket.


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## sabrinathecat (Jun 18, 2014)

Well, thanks everyone.

Sorry for the offense I have caused.
Clearly this was the wrong place for venting.


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## Umbran (Jun 18, 2014)

sabrinathecat said:


> Well, thanks everyone.
> 
> Sorry for the offense I have caused.
> Clearly this was the wrong place for venting.




Given this, I think it is best to close the thread.


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