# Undead warforged



## AuraSeer (Nov 15, 2004)

Warforged are living creatures, but they're not made of ordinary flesh. I'm wondering whether that prevents them from being turned into undead creatures.

Can a dead warforged be animated as a zombie?
Can a warforged wizard become a lich?
How about wraiths, wights, vampires, vampire spawn, and other kinds of undead?


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## DanMcS (Nov 15, 2004)

AuraSeer said:
			
		

> Warforged are living creatures, but they're not made of ordinary flesh. I'm wondering whether that prevents them from being turned into undead creatures.
> 
> Can a dead warforged be animated as a zombie?
> Can a warforged wizard become a lich?
> How about wraiths, wights, vampires, vampire spawn, and other kinds of undead?




They're living constructs, and immune to energy drain, but not ability drain.

Constructs can't become undead, because they were never alive.  Most of the undead templates say something like _"Vampire" is an acquired template that can be added to any humanoid or monstrous humanoid creature_'; warforged are neither, they're living constructs, which is a subtype of construct.  So technically, probably not.

I'd go with the rule of cool: if it would be cool and useful for your campaign to have a vampire warforged, go for it.


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## Liquidsabre (Nov 15, 2004)

A dead warforged, a living construct, whose body is given animation after it's soul has passed would be a normal construct, lifeless and souless.


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## Knight Otu (Nov 15, 2004)

A warforged could become undead, if there were an undead creature that could spawn from them. There are none of them in the SRD. Most only spawn from humanoid creatures (type restriction), or pass on a disease (which living constructs are immune against). Warforged have no skeletal system, and thus cannot be animated as skeletons or zombies. An undead template that can be applied to living creatures could be used, if the warforged could be killed by the attack that does the spawning.


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## Herobizkit (Feb 13, 2010)

"Rule of Cool" should apply to an undead Warforged.  Undead and Constructs share similar immunities, so it's just a matter of stats (ie loss of Con).


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## Vegepygmy (Feb 13, 2010)

AuraSeer said:


> Warforged are living creatures, but they're not made of ordinary flesh. I'm wondering whether that prevents them from being turned into undead creatures.



*From Races of Eberron, page 16:*

"The Treaty of Thronehold gave warforged their freedom, but only after great debate. House Cannith and Thrane argued ardently that warforged were not living creatures because they do not possess souls. Their evidence for this was that warforged cannot become undead by any known method, not even ghosts or shadows."​


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## Herobizkit (Feb 13, 2010)

But what about unknown methods?


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## Jack Simth (Feb 13, 2010)

Well... technically, there is a method by which you can turn a Warforged into a Wight.

Step 1: Get a 1st level LG Warforged.
Step 2: Get an Unholy Chaotic Weapon
Step 3: Convince the Warforged to wield the weapon

Effect: The Warforged gains a negative level or two - as it has more negative levels than hit dice, it dies.  As it was killed by negative levels, it rises the next day as a Wight.


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## FoxWander (Feb 13, 2010)

AuraSeer said:


> Warforged are living creatures, but they're not made of ordinary flesh. I'm wondering whether that prevents them from being turned into undead creatures.
> 
> Can a dead warforged be animated as a zombie?
> Can a warforged wizard become a lich?
> How about wraiths, wights, vampires, vampire spawn, and other kinds of undead?



Well, they don't have blanket immunity to necromancy effects, so _theoretically_ they can become undead. However, because of the type restrictions, it's difficult to find an undead template that can be applied to them. It has to be a template which can be applied to "any corporeal creature" without any other qualifiers. Zombie and skeleton are out because they require a corporeal creature WITH a skeletal system- which warforged don't have. The same goes for the other undead types you list.

The only undead "template" that kinda works on a warforged is "Spawn of Kyuss" from MM2- and even that one depends on ruling that warforged have a brain for the spawn worm to burrow into. If the worm can cause enough intelligence damage to kill a warforged, then it will become a spawn.

You can also create warforged wights- but it requires some extra work. Normally they would be immune to "wightdom" because of their immunity to energy drain, but under the spell _Greater Humanoid Essence_ (Races of Eberron, Cleric 7, Artificer 6) a warforged loses the living construct subtype, their main type changes to humanoid and they lose ALL their other immunities. They are now eligible to be energy drained to death (Yay! What a fun prize!) and can become wights. When the spell wears off they'll be UNliving constructs! In fact, that spell could be used to create several types of undead warforged that require the "humanoid" type.


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## Umbran (Feb 13, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> Well, they don't have blanket immunity to necromancy effects, so _theoretically_ they can become undead.




I'm working from the d20 srd, which doesn't cover warforged specifically.  However:

Constructs are immune to necromantic effects.

And the level loss from an unholy or chaotic weapon _isn't necromantic_ - the weapons are made with _evocation_ magic.  And the weapon power description notes that it cannot result in actual permanent level loss.  So, I'm thinking it cannot kill you and have you come back as a wight.


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## Vardock (Feb 14, 2010)

In one my my Eberron books, I found references to the "Woeforged". They are warforged that live in the Mournland that are "sort of undead", just as Warforged are "Sort of alive"


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## FoxWander (Feb 14, 2010)

Umbran said:


> Constructs are immune to necromantic effects.




Constructs- yes, but not the living construct subtype. From the D&D Glossary that DanMcS linked to above: 

_Unlike other constructs, living constructs are subject to critical hits, effects requiring a Fort save, death from massive damage, nonlethal damage, stunning, *ability damage*, ability drain, and death effects or *necromancy effects*._
Emphasis added to show how they would be vulnerable to the Spawn of Kyuss worm (if they have brains that can be burrowed into) and necromancy in general. 


Also, it doesn't have to be permanent level loss to kill you.  From the SRD- Energy Drain and Negative Levels:

_A character with negative levels at least equal to her current level, or drained below 1st level, is instantly slain. Depending on the creature that killed her, she may rise the next night as a monster of that kind. If not, she rises as a wight._
So I would guess that a 1st-level good-aligned warforged who attempts to wield an _unholy_ weapon would be instantly slain and rise as a wight.


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## freebiewitz (Feb 14, 2010)

Just a thought. Assuming the warforged gets turned into an undead what kinda bonuses/disadvantages would it get?

For example would using negative energy to heal work? Or would it only heal them at half power?


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## pawsplay (Feb 14, 2010)

Jack Simth said:


> Well... technically, there is a method by which you can turn a Warforged into a Wight.
> 
> Step 1: Get a 1st level LG Warforged.
> Step 2: Get an Unholy Chaotic Weapon
> ...




Only negative levels from energy drain turn you into a wight.


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## FoxWander (Feb 14, 2010)

pawsplay said:


> Only negative levels from energy drain turn you into a wight.



Where is that from? Everything I've read about negative levels, wherever they're gained from, says if you die from them you'll rise as a wight. It even says so in the WOTC online glossary: negative levels. IT mentions multiple sources for the negative levels (_"resulting from energy drain, spells, magic items, or magical effects"_) and then ends with the bit I quoted in my last post- rising as the kind of monster that killed you *OR* as a wight.


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## Jhaelen (Feb 15, 2010)

Vardock said:


> In one my my Eberron books, I found references to the "Woeforged". They are warforged that live in the Mournland that are "sort of undead", just as Warforged are "Sort of alive"



Yep, that's what I wanted to point out as well. They're mentioned in 'Forge of War'.


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## Walking Dad (Feb 16, 2010)

I used to play an unliving construct.

Character Sheet is here:

Scavenger

we (DM and me) used a combination of Necropolit and Warforged.


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## irdeggman (Feb 16, 2010)

Rules Compendium pg 49

"Death Due to Energy Drain"

"A creature that has negative levels equal to its current level or Hit Dice is instantly slain. A creature slain by energy drain in this way might rise as an undead of the same type as the energy draining creature. Such an occurence is detailed in the energy draining creature's description. If this isn't the case, a creature slain by energy drain rises as a wight *(if it can)."*

Since the specific text is under "death by energy drain" and not merely gaining negative levels and a Warforged is immune to energy drain - then they can not become undead.

Rules Compendium is technically the definitive rules source for 3.5 and where it conflicts with other sources it takes precededence (I know not everyone agrees, but that is RAW).

Now as FoxWander pointed out - if you can strip them of their living construct status then you have a different set of possibilities.

Also the SRD liste energy drain and negative levels at the same place - leading credence to how the RC has laid it out. Basically that it takes an ergy drain (or energy drain effect, which can come from a spell) to yield the undead effect.



> *ENERGY DRAIN AND NEGATIVE LEVELS*
> Some horrible creatures, especially undead monsters, possess a fearsome supernatural ability to drain levels from those they strike in combat. The creature making an energy drain attack draws a portion of its victim’s life force from her. Most energy drain attacks require a successful melee attack roll—mere physical contact is not enough. Each successful energy drain attack bestows one or more negative levels on the opponent. A creature takes the following penalties for each negative level it has gained.
> –1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
> –1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
> ...


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## Jack Simth (Feb 16, 2010)

irdeggman said:


> Rules Compendium is technically the definitive rules source for 3.5 and where it conflicts with other sources it takes precededence (I know not everyone agrees, but that is RAW).



Correction:
According to the Rules Compendium, the Rules Compendium dominates.
According to the Primary Source Rule at the top of the errata, the PHB, DMG, and MM dominate.


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## irdeggman (Feb 16, 2010)

Jack Simth said:


> Correction:
> According to the Rules Compendium, the Rules Compendium dominates.
> According to the Primary Source Rule at the top of the errata, the PHB, DMG, and MM dominate.




I know you have historically not taken the RC as "official rules" but not only does the RC itself state that it dominates WotC also has said so (or that at the very least it contained errata {notably that was not included in the "free errata", but errata regardless)

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (<i>Rules Compendium</i>)

(a link to a web supplement to the RC which includes the living construct "type")

Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (Rules Compendium)


As far as the Primary source rule goes



> Errata Rule: Primary Sources
> When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules
> sources, *unless an official errata file says otherwise*, the
> primary source is correct. One example of a
> ...




So if one doesn't read that the RC contains "official errata" {even though several sources state it does} then an argument could be made that it has no meaning whatsover.


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## FoxWander (Feb 16, 2010)

irdeggman said:


> Since the specific text is under "death by energy drain" and not merely gaining negative levels and a Warforged is immune to energy drain - then they can not become undead.




Correlation is not causation- what if the negative level ISN'T due to energy drain? You imply that immunity to energy drain makes them immune to becoming undead, but that's not the case. A warforged's immunity to energy drain merely makes them immune to gaining negative levels FROM energy drain, NOT from gaining negative levels at all! And it's the negative levels that can make a creature undead.

Now, admittedly, there aren't very many incidents where one can get negative levels WITHOUT an obvious energy drain effect as the cause, but it can happen- as is the case when a good creature attempts to wield an _unholy_ weapon. If said creature is only first level, it's pretty clear that gaining a negative level (temporarily or not, and whatever the cause) will instantly kill it. Then what happens? 

According to the glossary entry I quoted above (And two things about that: 1-it's an entry on 'negative levels' by itself, not attached to energy drain and, 2-it's an online reference and so presumably up to date with all current errata. I only point this out to avoid reference to the RC since its propriety is somehow in doubt AND it only references negative levels as linked to energy drain which doesn't help in answering this question.) someone slain by negative levels WILL RISE as something- without an undead creature as the cause, the default is rising as a wight.

Since we're bringing up controversial sources, I should point out that my original post (that warforged can become undead, it's just difficult finding an undead template that can be applied) is based on the official D&D faq on the WOTC site (see pg. 7 "Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an undead?"). The faq also points out how picking up _unholy_ weapons can be lethal for first level good-aligned characters (pg. 59).


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## Jack Simth (Feb 16, 2010)

irdeggman said:


> I know you have historically not taken the RC as "official rules" but not only does the RC itself state that it dominates WotC also has said so (or that at the very least it contained errata {notably that was not included in the "free errata", but errata regardless)
> 
> Dungeons & Dragons Roleplaying Game Official Home Page - Article (<i>Rules Compendium</i>)
> 
> ...




Contains errata vs. is errata.  d20SRD.org updates their content with errata'd changes.  It contains errata.  d20SRD.org is not, of itself, "an errata file" as specified in the primary source rule.  

What do the articles you linked say about the Rules Compendium and Errata?  It "includes errata" - it is not, of itself, errata.  It is an attempt "to clarify" - clarification is not supposed to actually change things.  It's supposed to "collect all the rules you need to play the game at the table in one place".  It's not, of itself, errata.  Just a quick reference guide.


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## irdeggman (Feb 17, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> Correlation is not causation- what if the negative level ISN'T due to energy drain? You imply that immunity to energy drain makes them immune to becoming undead, but that's not the case. A warforged's immunity to energy drain merely makes them immune to gaining negative levels FROM energy drain, NOT from gaining negative levels at all! And it's the negative levels that can make a creature undead.




Correct



> Now, admittedly, there aren't very many incidents where one can get negative levels WITHOUT an obvious energy drain effect as the cause, but it can happen- as is the case when a good creature attempts to wield an _unholy_ weapon. If said creature is only first level, it's pretty clear that gaining a negative level (temporarily or not, and whatever the cause) will instantly kill it. Then what happens?




Why? Only the FAQ answer leads to that conclusion. 



> According to the glossary entry I quoted above (And two things about that: 1-it's an entry on 'negative levels' by itself, not attached to energy drain and, 2-it's an online reference and so presumably up to date with all current errata. I only point this out to avoid reference to the RC since its propriety is somehow in doubt AND it only references negative levels as linked to energy drain which doesn't help in answering this question.) someone slain by negative levels WILL RISE as something- without an undead creature as the cause, the default is rising as a wight.
> 
> Since we're bringing up controversial sources, I should point out that my original post (that warforged can become undead, it's just difficult finding an undead template that can be applied) is based on the official D&D faq on the WOTC site (see pg. 7 "Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an undead?"). The faq also points out how picking up _unholy_ weapons can be lethal for first level good-aligned characters (pg. 59).




The original question - yes they could be transformed into undead (but not by negative levels, unless the monster entry specifically states so. Negative levels transforming a creature into a wight is specifically listed only in conjuncture with "energy drain" in the SRD and in the DMG (the MM entry is lacking on the result of turning into a wight with negative levels from enrgy drain). Using an on-line glossery is at best questionable since it is by it's very nature a brief descriptin. In the absence of other other evidence I would use it, but we have other evidence that leads down a different path.

The FAQ on warforged and undead



> *Can a warforged be animated as or transformed into an
> undead?*
> 
> A warforged isn’t immune to necromancy effects, so it can
> ...




Spells can cause energy drains (which a warforged is specifically immune to) but the animate dead spell (a necromancy spell) with a target of 1 corpse {no type mentioned} should work since it has nothing to do with energy drain.

As far as gaining negative levels from an unholy weapon



> *If a character gains a negative level by picking up an
> unholy weapon, and this results in her negative levels
> equaling her current level, is she killed even though the
> negative level goes away as soon as she releases the
> ...




There is a difference between being dead and becoming an undead from the effect.

But there is definitely room for confusion in this answer and interpretation.

IMO the FAQ is merely something that gives more evidence, and unless there is other evidence it might be the only thing we have to go on. In this case, it isn't and IMO taking the section of text about being dead from negative levels out of the context is in general bad form. The text (in the DMG) is written in conjunction with energy drain and not something that stands alone.


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## FoxWander (Feb 17, 2010)

Ok, for the most part I think you've convinced me. There simply isn't an explicit rule that says death from negative levels (that are gained separately from an energy drain effect) would do anything but simply kill you. Both the FAQ answer about unholy weapons and the SRD description of the _enervation_ spell (which also gives neg levels without mentioning "energy drain") say it can kill you, but mention nothing about rising again as a wight. And you'd think that would be a fairly significant point to mention.  So I guess negative levels by themselves can kill you, but not make you a wight. 

Now with the point conceded, I do still have some questions/comments on a few of your responses- but only to clear things up and avoid confusion.



irdeggman said:


> Why? Only the FAQ answer leads to that conclusion.



Are you saying that a 1st level good character picking up an unholy weapon _would not_ be killed as a result of the negative level gained? I'll admit that he won't become a wight because of it (although I think it's cooler if he does- it makes such weapons much more evil if they can create an evil creature that can then wield it in combat.) but I'm pretty sure the negative level will kill the character. Every source mentioned in this thread that talks about negative levels all agree that when you get as many as you have character levels- you die. I agree now that you don't necessarily become undead afterward- but you are slain.




irdeggman said:


> Spells can cause energy drains (which a warforged is specifically immune to) but the animate dead spell (a necromancy spell) with a target of 1 corpse {no type mentioned} should work since it has nothing to do with energy drain.



Actually _animate dead_ won't work because of the template problem. This is mentioned at the end of the faq entry you quoted. The spell might be able to target any corpse but it's effect is a templated creature. Both the skeleton and zombie templates require a corporeal creature with a skeletal system. If you go with the faq answer, which states they don't have a skeleton, then they can't be animated as either undead. If you ignore the faq and rule that they do have skeletons, then they can be animated by the spell.



irdeggman said:


> As far as gaining negative levels from an unholy weapon...
> There is a difference between being dead and becoming an undead from the effect.



Point conceded.


Just one last thing for my own clarification, because I try not to argue sloppily...


irdeggman said:


> ...taking the section of text about being dead from negative levels out of the context is in general bad form. The text (in the DMG) is written in conjunction with energy drain and not something that stands alone.



What was I taking out of context? I tried to only talk about the negative energy definition from the online glossary. And I don't think that was out of context. I mentioned only the glossary entry specifically because it was not in context with energy drain. Or are you talking about the being dead from negative levels in regards to the faq answer about unholy weapons? If so, then yes I think I was wrong about what it would do (bring you back as a wight) because of the glossary entry. I combined the death-by-negative-levels bit (in the unholy weapon faq) with the rise-as-a-wight result (from the glossary). I don't think that was out of context (although I do now think I was wrong) but I could have been more clear with regards to the connection I was inferring between the two sources.


Anyway, to sum up...
1) More neg levels that character levels = death (and nothing more)
2) Too many neg levels again, but his time from undead energy drain = death then rising as that type undead, or a wight
3) 1st level good guy vs. unholy weapon = dead good guy, but not undead non-good guy (although it's cooler if they do become undead)
and finally, 
4) Without spells that strip away the living construct type, the only RAW undead that work on warforged are Spawn of Kyuss- provided one rules that warforged have a brain which can be burrowed into by the spawn worms. According to the faq (for whatever that's worth) they do have brains- see question on page six about having said brains extracted by mind flayers. 


Actually, as a complete aside from the whole undead business, the entire warforged section of the faq is a rather haphazard, bizarre and somewhat contradictory explanation of warforged "biology." From the various questions it is inferred that warforged...
...are only slightly denser than other races and can swim with only mild difficulty.
...don't need to breathe but are vulnerable to depth pressure.
...are immune to fatigue and exhaustion, but still take non-lethal damage from overworking themselves (running, forced march, etc.).
...do not gain adamantine slam attacks even if they have the adamantine body feat.
...have a brain (edible by mind flayers no less) but no skeletal system.
 Curiouser and curiouser.


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## irdeggman (Feb 17, 2010)

FoxWander said:


> Just one last thing for my own clarification, because I try not to argue sloppily...
> 
> What was I taking out of context? I tried to only talk about the negative energy definition from the online glossary. And I don't think that was out of context. I mentioned only the glossary entry specifically because it was not in context with energy drain. Or are you talking about the being dead from negative levels in regards to the faq answer about unholy weapons? If so, then yes I think I was wrong about what it would do (bring you back as a wight) because of the glossary entry. I combined the death-by-negative-levels bit (in the unholy weapon faq) with the rise-as-a-wight result (from the glossary). I don't think that was out of context (although I do now think I was wrong) but I could have been more clear with regards to the connection I was inferring between the two sources.




Not you - but the glossary, which is an inherent problem with "glossaries" they tend to be incomplete and abreviated, in this case missing the context that the "rule" was written in.





> Actually, as a complete aside from the whole undead business, the entire warforged section of the faq is a rather haphazard, bizarre and somewhat contradictory explanation of warforged "biology."




I agree.  This is a problem with relying on the FAQ without any other supporting evidence. The writer(s) haave a tendency to provide a "quick and dirty" answer without actually looking up the rules.

There was one answer pertaining to the whether an item created by an artificer was "arcane" or "divine" but the Sage failed to check the errata that actually cleared up the issue (it was later caught by the Sage, but damage was done and reputation suffered accordingly).  That is why, even I though I do consider the FAQ an authoritative document, it falls below other sources and I always try to find mutliple sources to use.


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## malevolentnuzzler (Jul 27, 2010)

the deathmaster class from the dragon compinion whenthe deathmaster reaches 20 level it becomes a lich no mater what its base type was


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## FoxWander (Jul 28, 2010)

Thread necromancy in a thread about necromancy.... hmm. But you bring up a good point, that is another path for undead warforged. This would also work for a 20th level warforged dread necromancer. 

On a side note- both of these options would be an interesting class option for warforged from a roleplaying perspective. Curiosity about life and death leads a creature who is somewhat outside of both to embrace necromancy. A twist on the classic trope of a robot who is "evil" only because of its complete lack of empathy. Or perhaps a character who believes that the warforged were created as a mockery of life by humanity decides to turn the tables and create its own pale imitations from the living.


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