# [UPDATED AGAIN!] PRINCES OF THE APOCALYPSE - First Review!



## JTorres (Mar 21, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> p.s. The adventure also includes an eight page appendix with ideas for setting the adventure in worlds besides the Forgotten Realms.




Now that's interesting!  I wonder if adding this appendix was a response to gamers who were upset because of the move of an Elemental Evil adventure from Oerth to Faerun or if it was planned for the beginning to be ported over to whatever setting a DM wanted.  Either way, if these big APs are the new norm for WotC, I hope they continue adding these appendices.


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## CasvalRemDeikun (Mar 21, 2015)

I am hoping Oerth and Krynn are included in the appendix. Especially Oerth.


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## Jester David (Mar 21, 2015)

Do we know the page count?
Are the races/spells from the free document included?


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## Saxon1974 (Mar 21, 2015)

Not sure why but having a hard time getting interested in this. I loved getting modules for becmi and ad&d back in the day and reading through them but these newer hard book style releases kind of bore me. Maybe it'd nostalgia. I prefer the old style of modules that were 30 pages or so in a fold out cover with big fold out maps over these long story style hardbacks.


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## Wolfskin (Mar 21, 2015)

Jester Canuck said:


> Are the races/spells from the free document included?



AFAIK, the Genasi and the spells are indeed included. The rest of the races are not.


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## Jester David (Mar 21, 2015)

Saxon1974 said:


> Not sure why but having a hard time getting interested in this. I loved getting modules for becmi and ad&d back in the day and reading through them but these newer hard book style releases kind of bore me. Maybe it'd nostalgia. I prefer the old style of modules that were 30 pages or so in a fold out cover with big fold out maps over these long story style hardbacks.



Shorter attention spans of the modern world?


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## JohnnyZemo (Mar 21, 2015)

Saxon1974 said:


> Not sure why but having a hard time getting interested in this. I loved getting modules for becmi and ad&d back in the day and reading through them but these newer hard book style releases kind of bore me. Maybe it'd nostalgia. I prefer the old style of modules that were 30 pages or so in a fold out cover with big fold out maps over these long story style hardbacks.




I enjoy everything from the old TSR modules to the current Pathfinder Adventure Paths, but I think this particular adventure sounds boring.  It's got four dungeons that (going from this review) are all essentially the same.  Also, element-based foes are just by nature less interesting than dragons or liches.  It's possible that the authors of this adventure have found some way to make the bad guys more interesting, but the review doesn't really make that clear.  I wish the reviewer was a little more clear about why he thinks this adventure was good enough to rate five stars.


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## wazza (Mar 21, 2015)

Hopefully more than 160 given the price, I guess at 256.


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## Jester David (Mar 21, 2015)

I've grown to like published adventures, especially large ones with a plot. Because I can essentially run through them twice: once in my head as I read through the module, and once as my group plays it. That's some good value.


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## jamesjhaeck (Mar 21, 2015)

The sandbox-style of this adventure path gives me a lot of hope. I'm having a blast running Tyranny of Dragons, but the most enjoyable parts have been the ones that I've created and inserted myself, using villains and factions from other parts of the adventure. PotA seems like it's right up my alley.


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## pming (Mar 21, 2015)

Hiya.



Saxon1974 said:


> Not sure why but having a hard time getting interested in this. I loved getting modules for becmi and ad&d back in the day and reading through them but these newer hard book style releases kind of bore me. Maybe it'd nostalgia. I prefer the old style of modules that were 30 pages or so in a fold out cover with big fold out maps over these long story style hardbacks.




Ditto. I've even stated this multiple times through various threads on these very boards.

That said, I feel a bit of a weight has been lifted from my shoulders; I was worried they'd just screw it up in some hodge-podge "recreation" of T1-4. I'm happily surprised that they just took it as a base and used it to basically (from the sounds of it) create a whole new adventure. I can totally see some DM having done this sort of thing with it already in some game of ages past. After all, T1-4 is a pretty meaty adventure book.

Hard back adventures though? Nope. Forget it. I'm not paying $50 for something I probably would only use once. Actually, this brings me to a question:

Does anyone know how "replayable" this adventure is? I've ran the original T1-4 about a half-dozen times since it came out and I bought it (it's been so well-used the cover is getting hard to make out!)... Homlet, the Moathouse Ruins, Nulb, etc, etc... Even with the same group of people (more or less), each time we have a different story with the T1-4 story pretty much being the 'background setting' for all the roleplaying and character development. Is this new one just as "open" and "reusable"? Or are there huge swaths of "secret story reveals" that pretty much make it a one-timer?

^_^

Paul L. Ming


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## Uchawi (Mar 21, 2015)

Saxon1974 said:


> Not sure why but having a hard time getting interested in this. I loved getting modules for becmi and ad&d back in the day and reading through them but these newer hard book style releases kind of bore me. Maybe it'd nostalgia. I prefer the old style of modules that were 30 pages or so in a fold out cover with big fold out maps over these long story style hardbacks.



I agree.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 21, 2015)

What is the plot?


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## graves3141 (Mar 21, 2015)

Sounds like a great adventure and I'm definitely getting it.  Can we get a confirmation on the page count of the book?  I'm sure it's between 256 and 320 but I'd love to know the exact number.


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## casterblaster (Mar 21, 2015)

I would like to have it since it seems to transition nicely from LMoP. Anyone want to buy my copies of HotDQ and RoT?


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## Ed_Laprade (Mar 21, 2015)

Back in the day I'd buy adventures just to read, even if I didn't intend to run them. But at 50 bucks a pop? NO WAY! (Don't have a group, so that's all I could do with it.)


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## Fildrigar (Mar 21, 2015)

Deleted


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## jhingelshod (Mar 21, 2015)

Saxon1974 said:


> Not sure why but having a hard time getting interested in this. I loved getting modules for becmi and ad&d back in the day and reading through them but these newer hard book style releases kind of bore me. Maybe it'd nostalgia. I prefer the old style of modules that were 30 pages or so in a fold out cover with big fold out maps over these long story style hardbacks.




I think we're just older....


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 21, 2015)

I really want to know the CR of the Elemental Princes. Going to bet it will be in the 24 to 26 range.


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## CasvalRemDeikun (Mar 21, 2015)

I hope they go back and make an article for Lost Mines of Phandelver and the Tyranny of Dragons that makes an appendix similar to the one PotA is going to have so SMs can have a guide on how to run those adventures in other settings.


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## graves3141 (Mar 21, 2015)

Page count?


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## Morrus (Mar 21, 2015)

graves3141 said:


> Page count?




Custard?


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## graves3141 (Mar 21, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Custard?




I was hoping for something more "meaty".


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## Psikerlord# (Mar 21, 2015)

I'm very glad to hear this is a sandboxy style adventure. It's the sort of thing I might actually use. But at $50.... I would very much prefer a return to the smaller, cheaper adventures. Happily Ensider appears to have me covered on that front!


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 21, 2015)

graves3141 said:


> Page count?




Mearls stated it was between 256 and 320. I think Crawford said it was 256 pages.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 21, 2015)

Deletef


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 21, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> 18-19, IIRC.




Weaker then I expected. From the 18 to 19 thing I am guessing their CR's differ. So who are the princes with the 18s and who are the ones with the 19s.


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## EthanSental (Mar 22, 2015)

I know every one had a different price point they are willing to pay.  The pathfinder AP monthly books are 96 pages at 22.99 a piece.  If this book is 256 pages and a hard back at $49.99, that's actually a better deal than 2 monthly APs from Paizo (45.98 for 192 pages and not a hardcover).  I've had my copy pre-ordered for a while now and look forward to it's arrival.


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## Parmandur (Mar 22, 2015)

Does the Appendix cover specific settings, or is targeted at which aspects of the adventure would need to be changed?


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## Fildrigar (Mar 22, 2015)

Parmandur said:


> Does the Appendix cover specific settings, or is targeted at which aspects of the adventure would need to be changed?




Yes.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 22, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Yes.




I always find non answers like this funny.


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## pemerton (Mar 22, 2015)

JohnnyZemo said:


> I think this particular adventure sounds boring.  It's got four dungeons that (going from this review) are all essentially the same.



I don't think I'll be buying or playing the adventure - I've got a lot of material on my shelf already - but I don't know where you're getting this from.

All the review says about the dungeons is that each has a temple on the surface, a trail, tunnel, or path to get to a deeper dungeon under the hills, and then an Elemental Node. I don't see any reason to think that they're "essentially the same"!


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## Echohawk (Mar 22, 2015)

Morrus -- you might want to fix the title of this product in the review database. Although I really like the way _Princes of the Apolocalypse_ sounds, there are a couple of extraneous letters in there


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 22, 2015)

pemerton said:


> I don't think I'll be buying or playing the adventure - I've got a lot of material on my shelf already - but I don't know where you're getting this from.
> 
> All the review says about the dungeons is that each has a temple on the surface, a trail, tunnel, or path to get to a deeper dungeon under the hills, and then an Elemental Node. I don't see any reason to think that they're "essentially the same"!




It appears that the temple on the surface is not even a temple. More a keep or outpost from the Encounters PDF. The Air Cult has a tower overlooking a valley. The Water Cult has a Keep on the River side. 

Both are very diffrent in appearance and likely need to be approached differently. The Earth and Fire Cult's outposts will probably going to be fairly different too.


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## pemerton (Mar 22, 2015)

MonsterEnvy said:


> It appears that the temple on the surface is not even a temple. More a keep or outpost from the Encounters PDF. The Air Cult has a tower overlooking a valley. The Water Cult has a Keep on the River side.
> 
> Both are very diffrent in appearance and likely need to be approached differently. The Earth and Fire Cult's outposts will probably going to be fairly different too.



That makes sense. Presumably the Earth outpost will be something cave-like, and the Fire outpost will be in a volcano or other hot/fiery location.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 22, 2015)

pemerton said:


> That makes sense. Presumably the Earth outpost will be something cave-like, and the Fire outpost will be in a volcano or other hot/fiery location.




We only know the names of the later two outposts. While two are detailed.

Feathergale Spire which the air cult occupies. This one is detailed
Riverguard Keep were the water cult is. This one is detailed
Scared Stone Monastery is not detailed in the short pdf but the earth cult is stated to be in it.
Scarlet Moon Hall only gets a namedrop, but it has to be were the fire cult's outpost is.


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## pukunui (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm looking forward to this adventure a whole lot more now! Thanks.


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## Chimpy (Mar 22, 2015)

I've got the trimmed down encounters version and it does indeed look much better than HotDQ. Ran first session last week and was pleased with it. Attention to detail seems good, plenty of lovely maps and art, has options for players in where to go and what to do. I think there are still a few places where some more DM guidance would be useful, but that seems to be the 5e style.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 22, 2015)

Echohawk said:


> Morrus -- you might want to fix the title of this product in the review database. Although I really like the way _Princes of the Apolocalypse_ sounds, there are a couple of extraneous letters in there




Maybe it's an editorial comment? Princes of the ApoLOLcalypse?


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## chibi graz'zt (Mar 22, 2015)

I think this question has been asked 4-5x, what is the page count Fildrigar? If you actually have the book could you tell us?


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## Henry (Mar 22, 2015)

Echohawk said:


> Morrus -- you might want to fix the title of this product in the review database. Although I really like the way _Princes of the Apolocalypse_ sounds, there are a couple of extraneous letters in there




It doesn't matter, i'm still probably going to pony up the cash for this one.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 22, 2015)

Deleted


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## chibi graz'zt (Mar 22, 2015)

Awesome, that is what I was hoping for. Thanks Fildrigar. I am picking up this bad puppy on Friday.


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## Rhenny (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm definitely grabbing it.  Sounds like additional content with super adventure and campaign guide is a winner.  The presentation covers all the bases.


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## HobbitFan (Mar 22, 2015)

Does that "unearth the deception" tagline they are using have anything to do with anything in the adventure?


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## Staffan (Mar 22, 2015)

HobbitFan said:


> Does that "unearth the deception" tagline they are using have anything to do with anything in the adventure?




Judging by what has been released so far:
[sblock]All four prophets claim to be something they're not. For example, the air prophet claims to be an avariel (winged elf) - but she's really a moon elf with illusory wings who on occasion casts _fly_ when she needs to maintain appearances.[/sblock]


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 22, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> 256 big, meaty, lovely, full colored pages.



Only meat? No custard?


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## raphaelus (Mar 22, 2015)

Can't wait! Its basically a whole campaign a very nice package.  Since I saw the cover image and read the blurb I got a great feeling about it. The archetypical temple for each element I think may serve well to pull new geeks to the hobby by bringing images of L.o.Zelda games and the like. I'll be getting it later on the year, but I'll enjoy in the mean time good articles and reviews about it.


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## Desh-Rae-Halra (Mar 23, 2015)

So 4 versions of Genasi, any other races? New classes?


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## TRDG (Mar 23, 2015)

A bit wary of a 5 Star right out of the gate as the review did not really have listed a "5 star MUST HAVE IT" info, some problems do seem to exist but if it that much better/fixed than HotD and RoT then I'll be happy.

Pre ordered some time ago so I'll find out Friday, but this one kind of makes or breaks me with trusting them to do Hard Cover campaigns I will spend cash on.

Is there a way to do a 4.5 star system in the future, for me 5 Stars indicates no problems what so ever and a must have feel to it.

Very curious how he got it a week early, did a store sell it to him early, but good to have some feedback on it and curious to see what the boardgame will work out as to.

Tom


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 23, 2015)

Desh-Rae-Halra said:


> So 4 versions of Genasi, any other races? New classes?




http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/EE_PlayersCompanion.pdf

All the player stuff was already released.


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## Lidgar (Mar 23, 2015)

TarionzCousin said:


> Only meat? No custard?




How can you have any custard if you don't eat your meat? Stand still laddie!


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## MerricB (Mar 23, 2015)

HobbitFan said:


> Does that "unearth the deception" tagline they are using have anything to do with anything in the adventure?




Yep. Absolutely. Lots of cultists pretending to be something else. 

They're very, very different cultists than those in Tyranny of Dragons, who weren't hidden very much at all!

Cheers!


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## Celtavian (Mar 23, 2015)

Sounds too much like the previous module for my tastes with elemental powers substituted for dragons. I'd still much rather have AP style adventures with the same amount of work put in that Paizo puts into APs. I miss APs a great deal. New monsters, world information, and a cool adventure every month was worth my gaming dollar. This once every six months or a year mega-adventure doesn't seem very interesting.


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## MerricB (Mar 23, 2015)

Celtavian said:


> Sounds too much like the previous module for my tastes with elemental powers substituted for dragons. I'd still much rather have AP style adventures with the same amount of work put in that Paizo puts into APs. I miss APs a great deal. New monsters, world information, and a cool adventure every month was worth my gaming dollar. This once every six months or a year mega-adventure doesn't seem very interesting.




The two _Tyranny of Dragons_ adventures are incredibly different from _Princes of the Apocalypse_. From the top level - "stop X from summoning Y" - they seem really similar, but once you look at the adventures, the stories and structures are completely different.

Cheers!


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## Celtavian (Mar 23, 2015)

MerricB said:


> The two _Tyranny of Dragons_ adventures are incredibly different from _Princes of the Apocalypse_. From the top level - "stop X from summoning Y" - they seem really similar, but once you look at the adventures, the stories and structures are completely different.
> 
> Cheers!




What exactly does "completely different" mean? The end enemies aren't dragons? I'm going into nodes instead of dragon lairs? Can you give some examples? From the review, I'm not seeing a huge difference. Cultists again? Why cultists again? I spent the last two modules fighting cultists. Why can't they do something like _Rise of the Runelords_ or _Kingmaker_? You ever read or play _Rise of the Runelords_? That was an amazing AP from start to finish. _Kingmaker_ was something "completely different" from everything else Paizo was doing. 

If you compare _Kingmaker_ to _Tyranny of Dragons_, you will find those two adventures are as different as night and day. How much different is _Princes of the Apocalypse_ compared to the difference between _Kingmaker_ and _Tyranny of Dragons_? The synopsis doesn't sound very different. If you didn't play _Kingmaker_, boy, did you miss out. _Kingmaker_ easily equaled or beat the best D&D adventures of all time.

I'm also saying if WotC wants to compete with Paizo, they need to make sure their adventures are as good as Paizo's. I'm not getting my socks blown off by this next offering. Can you give some examples of why it's "completely different" and great?


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## JWO (Mar 23, 2015)

Does anyone know which temple the hookshot is found in?!


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

EthanSental said:


> I know every one had a different price point they are willing to pay.  The pathfinder AP monthly books are 96 pages at 22.99 a piece.  If this book is 256 pages and a hard back at $49.99, that's actually a better deal than 2 monthly APs from Paizo (45.98 for 192 pages and not a hardcover).  I've had my copy pre-ordered for a while now and look forward to it's arrival.




Of course, if price is really an issue...

Pathfinder APs are best purchased on subscription (where you can, technically, subscribe for one month if you want), to get a 30% discount and a free PDF. So, a shade under $16 per volume.

Or Princes of the Apocalypse can be had from Amazon for $32.69. (But not in the UK. We get to pay full price.  )


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## Iosue (Mar 23, 2015)

JWO said:


> Does anyone know which temple the hookshot is found in?!




Probably the Water Temple.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

Celtavian said:


> I'm also saying if WotC wants to compete with Paizo, they need to make sure their adventures are as good as Paizo's. I'm not getting my socks blown off by this next offering. Can you give some examples of why it's "completely different" and great?




That is the most disconcerting part of WotC's plan for 5e. They decided to put all their eggs in the AP basket. A type of product they never mastered and have a poor repution with adventures. Their main rival pretty much wrote the book on APs and is at the top of its game. WotC needs to out perform Paizo to impress everyone.

If only WotC _also_ bet on one of D&D's strenghts as a back up. Um... What are D&D's strenghts nowadays that can be profitable? Campaign settings? Simple rules? Doesn't that mean more splat or rule variants?


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> If only WotC _also_ bet on one of D&D's strenghts as a back up. Um... What are D&D's strenghts nowadays that can be profitable?




They could have stuck with the DDI. ~40k subscribers at $6 a month isn't bad - probably more than either the CS or the supplement treadmill, at least.


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## ssvegeta555 (Mar 23, 2015)

TRDG said:


> A bit wary of a 5 Star right out of the gate as the review did not really have listed a "5 star MUST HAVE IT" info, some problems do seem to exist but if it that much better/fixed than HotD and RoT then I'll be happy.
> 
> Pre ordered some time ago so I'll find out Friday, but this one kind of makes or breaks me with trusting them to do Hard Cover campaigns I will spend cash on.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I'm skeptical of the review myself. It was very vague and didn't really give me a clear picture of what it is and why it deserves the 5 star rating. I want a chapter breakdown, story points, what's unique, cool and interesting that stands out, what are the mechanics, so on and so forth. I want details, not a simple summary. I mean, if you're going to be the first review up, take advantage of that, go hog wild! Like you, I'm a bit wary of this review as well.

But from the sounds of it, this seems to be leagues better than the **** that was HotD (I didn't bother getting the second half of that adventure. I dropped the campaign and did my own thing). So that's a good sign.


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

ssvegeta555 said:


> Yeah, I'm skeptical of the review myself. It was very vague and didn't really give me a clear picture of what it is and why it deserves the 5 star rating.




I'm not sure how relevant it is, but Fildrigar has done 7 reviews, _all_ of which are 5-stars.

More generally, I've found that a single review from someone I don't know is largely useless - tastes are so subjective that what he likes I might hate, and vice versa. I've found two strategies can work: either wait for there to be a lot of reviews and then look at a sample, or find a reviewer I generally agree with and see what that person says. Neither of which really applies here, sadly.



> I want a chapter breakdown, story points, what's unique, cool and interesting that stands out, what are the mechanics, so on and so forth. I want details, not a simple summary.




Presumably Neuroglyph will have a review coming soon that will provide these things. That's one I'm waiting for! (That said, I've put Neuroglyph on probation after his reviews of HotDQ and RoT. It's fair to say I didn't entirely agree.)


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## Morrus (Mar 23, 2015)

delericho said:


> I'm not sure how relevant it is, but Fildrigar has done 7 reviews, _all_ of which are 5-stars.




Some folks prefer to review (or recommend) stuff they like.  Unless they're a professional reviewer, spending time reading and writing about stuff they don't like it probably not high on their list of priorities.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

Can you really give 5 stars to an adventure you never run? 

Just asking.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

delericho said:


> They could have stuck with the DDI. ~40k subscribers at $6 a month isn't bad - probably more than either the CS or the supplement treadmill, at least.




I have doubts about those (speculated) number of subscribers. That would mean revenues of 2,880,000 dollars a year. In an industry that generates 15 million dollars of revenue a year, DDI would be almost one fifth of the industry. It is something I would support and develop, heck, I would make it a priority.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 23, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Some folks prefer to review (or recommend) stuff they like.  Unless they're a professional reviewer, spending time reading and writing about stuff they don't like it probably not high on their list of priorities.




Yep. If I don't like something ( HotDQ ) I'm just not going to review it. I'm not a professional reviewer, just someone who loves games. And this module blew me away. I quickly shelved the plans I had for my campaign, and pushed the party towards the Sumber Hills. My review is deliberately a little vague, because the book isn't out yet, and I don't want to get anyone in trouble. ( I shouldn't have it yet, not until Friday. ) I will try to expand it more this week. 

And I wish there was a way to rate with half stars, because I would have rated several of the things I've reviewed 4.5. ( Including this one.)


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## Fildrigar (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Can you really give 5 stars to an adventure you never run?
> 
> Just asking.




All right, that's enough man. You want to drive people away from this site and be a "gatekeeper."


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## Desh-Rae-Halra (Mar 23, 2015)

Thanks MonsterEnvy. I haven't really been up on 5E since we tried playing part of HotDQ and basically stopped.


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## Desh-Rae-Halra (Mar 23, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Some folks prefer to review (or recommend) stuff they like.  Unless they're a professional reviewer, spending time reading and writing about stuff they don't like it probably not high on their list of priorities.




Its funny, I tend to review things I dont like/am unhappy with,really for the purpose of making other buyers more informed (in hopes they won't feel burned by the purchase). 
An example:

http://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Character-Record-Sheets/dp/0786948531


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> All right, that's enough man.



Not really, actually.

So, how did you get your hands on the AP and read it before it was sold anywhere? 

From your comment about the levels of the Princes (the "If I Reckon Correctly" or IIRC comment), it would seem you skimmed it once. Maybe you work in a warehouse or for some distributor and had it briefly in your hands?

I wonder if skimming an AP once and not actually have ran the thing, lets someone give it a five star review?

Just asking.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Not really, actually.
> 
> So, how did you get your hands on the AP and read it before it was sold anywhere?
> 
> ...




Yep. That's what always comes next. Prove it. Thanks, buddy.


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Can you really give 5 stars to an adventure you never run?




I wondered about that. But the problem is that the only people who have run it are under NDA. And making that a requirement makes it almost impossible to produce relevant reviews - we need them as the item is 'hot', but the weeks needed to run it would more or less prevent that.

Besides, even a run-through is of only limited use, since your impression is inevitably going to be heavily coloured by your individual experience - if one of your players decides to be awkward he could ruin an otherwise good adventure for you.


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## Desh-Rae-Halra (Mar 23, 2015)

There's not much (any?) point in giving Fildrigar grief over this. It is just one person's review/preview. 
It's not like now I HAVE to go out and buy it immediately because it got a good review....
I'm not picking this up, but even if I was, I would certainly flip through it at the store before throwing down my money.
If anything, allow his review to make you more skeptical so you figure out if this is up to your standards, and then please come back and let us know. 
No good deed goes unpunished I guess....


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Yep. If I don't like something ( HotDQ ) I'm just not going to review it. I'm not a professional reviewer, just someone who loves games.




Thanks for clarifying. And, indeed, thanks for your review.

And if it felt like I was questioning your integrity, I apologise - that was not my intent, but I can certainly see how it could have been read that way. Morrus was, of course, absolutely right about some people choosing to only review things they love.


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> I have doubts about those (speculated) number of subscribers. That would mean revenues of 2,880,000 dollars a year.




The ~40k figure is actually considerably lower than the "known" values from this thread. I was never 100% sure those values were accurate, but had no specific evidence to suggest they weren't, so...



> In an industry that generates 15 million dollars of revenue a year, DDI would be almost one fifth of the industry. It is something I would support and develop, heck, I would make it a priority.




I suspect the $15m for the industry never included DDI at all.

And, yes, it's something I would make a priority, especially if they want to provide support for hardcore gamers without causing the "Wall of Books" problem or bloating the game for 'casual' players. But WotC appear to have chosen a different route, which is their prerogative I guess.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Yep. That's what always comes next. Prove it. Thanks, buddy.



You reviewed the AP before it was made public and I must prove how _you_ got it? 

You make very little sense.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

delericho said:


> I wondered about that. But the problem is that the only people who have run it are under NDA. And making that a requirement makes it almost impossible to produce relevant reviews - we need them as the item is 'hot', but the weeks needed to run it would more or less prevent that.
> 
> Besides, even a run-through is of only limited use, since your impression is inevitably going to be heavily coloured by your individual experience - if one of your players decides to be awkward he could ruin an otherwise good adventure for you.




Every review will be subjective. But if you say ran the AP, your review is based on more than superficial impressions. I would qualify that as more informative and having more value.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> You reviewed the AP before it was made public and I must prove how _you_ got it?
> 
> You make very little sense.




Stop being a jerk.  If you're not interested in his comments on the book for whatever reason, feel free to move on and read something else.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> You reviewed the AP before it was made public and I must prove how _you_ got it?
> 
> You make very little sense.




No he's annoyed that your asking him to prove it.


----------



## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

delericho said:


> The ~40k figure is actually considerably lower than the "known" values from this thread. I was never 100% sure those values were accurate, but had no specific evidence to suggest they weren't, so...



Those are the subscribers for the paper mags. Not sure they can be used for the emags. 



> I suspect the $15m for the industry never included DDI at all.



I think so too. ICv2 never had access to take kind of info. This would mean DDI had even more value if it generated "extra" revenues. 



> And, yes, it's something I would make a priority, especially if they want to provide support for hardcore gamers without causing the "Wall of Books" problem or bloating the game for 'casual' players. But WotC appear to have chosen a different route, which is their prerogative I guess.



I ment back in the day, when 4e was still being supported.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

MonsterEnvy said:


> No he's annoyed that your asking him to prove it.




I didn't ask to prove anything. Just asked where he read it. We're all curious. No?


----------



## Morrus (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> I didn't ask to prove anything. Just asked where he read it. We're all curious. No?




Obviously there's a reason why he feels he doesn't want to share that information with you. I can think of at least a couple of very good reasons.


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## Fabio Andrea Rossi (Mar 23, 2015)

In the meanwhile, Fildrigar deleted his own review...du-du-du-dun! The mistery gets deeper...anyway, I liked the review! It served the purpose to tell me this is nearer to LMoP than anything else, and I loved LMoP!

PS
The precise numbers of STARS imho is something only important to Nemesis in RE3, I think 

PPS
edit: typo


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Those are the subscribers for the paper mags. Not sure they can be used for the emags.




If you look through the thread you'll find various updates giving the number of DDI subscriptions. It seemed to be somewhere over 50k in the first post up to ~70k by the end.

That said, I'm not sure I can really recommend wading through all that. 



> I think so too. ICv2 never had access to take kind of info. This would mean DDI had even more value if it generated "extra" revenues.




Yep, and I think it did.

As far as I can see, DDI had tens of thousands of subscribers, something which would have delighted anyone else in the industry. But I think Hasbro's management was sold on DDI on the basis of _hundreds_ of thousands, which it of course failed to achieve. And so, despite being huge in terms of RPGs, it still counted as a "failure", albeit against absurd expectations. (Worse, I'm pretty sure DDI must have canibalised sales of the books at least to some extent, and especially of the splatbooks, which should have been the "safe bets" as far as supplements are concerned.)



> I ment back in the day, when 4e was still being supported.




Ah, I see. I thought it was the priority, at least for several years there. I may be wrong - I was very much an observer in the 4e days.


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## Waller (Mar 23, 2015)

It's been deleted but its on Facebook and other places.
-----

Let's get this part out of the way right up front: This is not THE Temple of Elemental Evil. It was clearly *inspired* by ToEE.

It details four elemental cults attempting to summon the Princes of Elemental Evil, but Tharzdun/Zuggtmoy/Iuz are not contained within this adventure in any way shape or form. What you find instead is a fairly sandboxy adventure set in the Sumber Hills of the Sword Coast of the Forgotten Realms.

The adventure is designed for levels 3-15, although it contains a number of initial side treks that you can use to get a party up from level one to level three. Since it is set a hop skip and a jump away from the Neverwinter area, it is really easy to direct your party there post Lost Mines of Phandelver.

The adventure details Red Larch and the surrounding environment, and has brief descriptions Beliard, West Bridge, and Womford. There are four temple areas on the surface, and each has a trail, tunnel, or path to get to a deeper dungeon under the hills. Each dungeon then leads to an Elemental Node. ( In addition to a connection to the other dungeons. ) The adventure also contains a number of other, unrelated side treks, which can be dropped here and there into the recommended order of running the adventure. There are also a number of responses to intrusion that the elemental cults will take, designed to be dropped in depending upon which temples get taken out first. The cultists will lash out at the surrounding area, causing mayhem.

Some DM work will be required to make everything fit together perfectly. There is one of each air/water/earth/fire of each set of areas. ( Surface, dungeon, node. ) Each is designed for a slightly different level. Luckily, 5e has a built in mechanism ( bounded accuracy ) to make it so that ending up at the areas of a slightly different level than your party is won't end up being a complete TPK tragedy. Some DM work may be required, however, in some cases. I suspect that shortly after release, some enterprising people will go about making some guides to help newer DMs realize the biggest areas to watch out for if done out of level range. This is my one criticism of the module, but it's not bad enough to drop an entire star from my rating. And unlike 5e, I don't automatically round down.

p.s. The adventure also includes an eight page appendix with ideas for setting the adventure in worlds besides the Forgotten Realms.


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## Mercule (Mar 23, 2015)

Desh-Rae-Halra said:


> Thanks MonsterEnvy. I haven't really been up on 5E since we tried playing part of HotDQ and basically stopped.



If we'd started with HotDQ instead of LMoP, we probably wouldn't be playing 5E, right now. I can't put my finger on it, but I just didn't like HotDQ. LMoP was a blast, though.



Fildrigar said:


> Yep. If I don't like something ( HotDQ ) I'm just not going to review it. I'm not a professional reviewer, just someone who loves games. And this module blew me away. I quickly shelved the plans I had for my campaign, and pushed the party towards the Sumber Hills. My review is deliberately a little vague, because the book isn't out yet, and I don't want to get anyone in trouble. ( I shouldn't have it yet, not until Friday. ) I will try to expand it more this week.



While I get you're not a professional reviewer, I'd love more information. I appreciate that you've come in here and given a bit more detail. Thanks. The fact that you were less than awed by HotDQ already lends weight to your review, IMO.

What I'm (personally and selfishly) interested in is:
- How ready is it to play "out of the box"? I didn't run HotDQ largely because it looked like a story outline with a couple dungeons. If I need to fill in the details and/or "wing it" for half the chapters, I might just as well roll my own.

- How tied to the Realms is it? This is the other reason I didn't run HotDQ: I strongly dislike the Realms and didn't see any way to neatly decouple the adventure from the setting w/o massively rewriting portions.

- Corollary: Could it be move to Eberron? You said there was a small conversion guide. Does it have advice on integration or just where to file off the serial numbers?

- Is it a campaign or a big adventure? The difference is in including a place for the PCs to have some downtime and a base, as well as an opportunity (vs. requirement) to branch out from what's present and add a side quest or two.


----------



## Iosue (Mar 23, 2015)

The higher-ups at WotC and/or Hasbro probably don't give the thumbs up on announcing 5e early and shutting down all print material during a two-year open playtest unless DDI is bringing in a nice chunk of revenue.


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## darjr (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> I have doubts about those (speculated) number of subscribers. That would mean revenues of 2,880,000 dollars a year. In an industry that generates 15 million dollars of revenue a year, DDI would be almost one fifth of the industry. It is something I would support and develop, heck, I would make it a priority.




I think mostly confirmed in designers & dragons. Though that book does draw from these very forums.


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## Morrus (Mar 23, 2015)

darjr said:


> I think mostly confirmed in designers & dragons. Though that book does draw from these very forums.




Does it?  I don't have the book.  What does it say?


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## darjr (Mar 23, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Does it?  I don't have the book.  What does it say?




In the section about WoTC near the end when he muses over the life of 4e.

You should consider getting it. It is pretty amazing.

ENWorld is credited as a source. Though I think he confirms almost everything with other sources and interviews. He notes specifically when info is unconfirmed.


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

Iosue said:


> The higher-ups at WotC and/or Hasbro probably don't give the thumbs up on announcing 5e early and shutting down all print material during a two-year open playtest unless DDI is bringing in a nice chunk of revenue.




So they authorised the creation of a new edition on the back of DDI incomes, and as part of the strategy for that new edition they mothball the DDI? That doesn't sound like a sensible course of action.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

Morrus said:


> Obviously there's a reason why he feels he doesn't want to share that information with you. I can think of at least a couple of very good reasons.



Like what? I just can't understand why he wouldn't want to share it with the community.


----------



## Morrus (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Like what? I just can't understand why he wouldn't want to share it with the community.




I'm sorry to hear that. Your understanding is not necessarily required, however. Drop it and move on.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

delericho said:


> If you look through the thread you'll find various updates giving the number of DDI subscriptions. It seemed to be somewhere over 50k in the first post up to ~70k by the end.
> 
> That said, I'm not sure I can really recommend wading through all that.



Yeah, I won't. Are those estimated numbers or official ones? I have doubts about estimated ones. 



> (Worse, I'm pretty sure DDI must have canibalised sales of the books at least to some extent, and especially of the splatbooks, which should have been the "safe bets" as far as supplements are concerned.)



And why some thinkthe online builder was made. 



> Ah, I see. I thought it was the priority, at least for several years there. I may be wrong - I was very much an observer in the 4e days.



Depends when you look. At first DDI was just the mags and they were free and contained 3.5 material. They were supposed to bridge the period when we transitionned from the paper mags to the online mags with 4e content. They hardly were supported. I wouldn't say they were a priority then. 

Then 4e launched and so did DDI. The tools were buggy, but they got fixed. The emags had regular articles. I do not know if DDI was a priority, but it had support.

And then came a contencious patch/update for the offline tools, the new (buggy) online tools, and articles were late or never materialized. People cancelled their subscriptions and WotC was issuing refunds. Not sure it was sucha priority. All the discontent, the refunds, the low quality of DDI, make me skeptical about speculated numbers of DDI members.


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## DEFCON 1 (Mar 23, 2015)

delericho said:


> So they authorised the creation of a new edition on the back of DDI incomes, and as part of the strategy for that new edition they mothball the DDI? That doesn't sound like a sensible course of action.




Technically DDI isn't in mothballs, as I believe you can still subscribe to it if you are a current 4E player and still have use of the several online builders, compendium, Dungeon and Dragon Magazine archives etc.

But as far as having it available for 5E as well... they probably *could* have, but it would have come down to the cost of actually recreating all the online builders and compendium etc. for 5E... plus have the staff on hand to plan, organize, write and/or edit all the articles for the online magazines.  Mike has said all along that they were taking a long view of the financials of the game, so it seems as though having an available DDI at launch was not something they were interested in taking on (even if it did generate revenue for 4E).  But like everything else... I'd imagine that Mike hasn't dismissed DDI for 5E out of hand, he just hasn't felt expending all the resources right off the top to get it up and running was necessarily the smartest course of action.

After all... if the game is still going strong in Year Four, Year Five, and DDI *has* been put back up and running successfully at that point... most of us will probably forget about the first year of the game when we didn't have it.


----------



## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> Yeah, I won't. Are those estimated numbers or official ones? I have doubts about estimated ones.




They're taken from the membership of the DDI group in their Community, which I believe included all those who were DDI subscribers and had also filled out their CS accounts. So it was taken as a _minimum_ number of subscribers. Like you, I was somewhat sceptical of the numbers, but didn't have any evidence that might cause me to doubt them, just a gut feel.

AFAIK, WotC have never released any official subscriber numbers, nor would I expect them to. (The paper mags, though, were required to reveal this information, hence the info in the first post in that thread.)



> Then 4e launched and so did DDI. The tools were buggy, but they got fixed. The emags had regular articles. I do not know if DDI was a priority, but it had support.




Yeah, that was the spell I was thinking of - it seemed that every two weeks we got a stack of errata for the Character Builder, the magazines were putting out regular stuff, and I definitely got the sense that the books were the secondary concern behind the regular (and significant) income from subscriptions.

I may, of course, have had an incorrect impression.


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

DEFCON 1 said:


> But as far as having it available for 5E as well... they probably *could* have, but it would have come down to the cost of actually recreating all the online builders and compendium etc. for 5E... plus have the staff on hand to plan, organize, write and/or edit all the articles for the online magazines.




The plans for Codename: Morningstar would indicate that a 5e DDI was not on the cards. They might have changed their plans in light of the cancellation of that project, but we can be reasonably sure that it's plan B at best.


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## carmachu (Mar 23, 2015)

Psikerlord# said:


> I'm very glad to hear this is a sandboxy style adventure. It's the sort of thing I might actually use. But at $50.... I would very much prefer a return to the smaller, cheaper adventures. Happily Ensider appears to have me covered on that front!




Honestly I find it a bit annoying for fils to complain about the cosy. You 6 book AP from pathfinder costs considerable mor even a the subscription rate.


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## Kramodlog (Mar 23, 2015)

delericho said:


> They're taken from the membership of the DDI group in their Community, which I believe included all those who were DDI subscribers and had also filled out their CS accounts. So it was taken as a _minimum_ number of subscribers. Like you, I was somewhat sceptical of the numbers, but didn't have any evidence that might cause me to doubt them, just a gut feel.
> 
> AFAIK, WotC have never released any official subscriber numbers, nor would I expect them to. (The paper mags, though, were required to reveal this information, hence the info in the first post in that thread.)



The biggest issue I had with those numbers was that they didn't drop. They only grew. When people cancelled subscriptions and asked for refunds it should have gone down. And you know, the elephant in the room. 4e wasn't that popular. That isn't conductive to growth of membership.



> Yeah, that was the spell I was thinking of - it seemed that every two weeks we got a stack of errata for the Character Builder, the magazines were putting out regular stuff, and I definitely got the sense that the books were the secondary concern behind the regular (and significant) income from subscriptions.



And then it stopped. Not what I would do to a successful endeavor. Especially since it happened around Essential's launch. When new breath was supposed to be infused into 4e. 



> I may, of course, have had an incorrect impression.



Reality is subjective.


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## darjr (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> The biggest issue I had with those numbers was that they didn't drop. They only grew. When people cancelled subscriptions and asked for refunds it should have gone down. And you know, the elephant in the room. 4e wasn't that popular. That isn't conductive to growth of membership.
> 
> And then it stopped. Not what I would do to a successful endeavor. Especially since it happened around Essential's launch. When new breath was supposed to be infused into 4e.
> 
> Reality is subjective.




They did drop. I verified it myself in the prior version of the software and I wasn't the only one that verified it.


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## Psikerlord# (Mar 23, 2015)

carmachu said:


> Honestly I find it a bit annoying for fils to complain about the cosy. You 6 book AP from pathfinder costs considerable mor even a the subscription rate.



I dont like AP's either coz they're too long - at least me complaining is consistent!


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## delericho (Mar 23, 2015)

goldomark said:


> The biggest issue I had with those numbers was that they didn't drop. They only grew. When people cancelled subscriptions and asked for refunds it should have gone down. And you know, the elephant in the room. 4e wasn't that popular. That isn't conductive to growth of membership.




As darjr notes, the numbers did drop, though you had to be quick to see it.

As for the popularity of 4e: WotC reckon about 1 million people actively play D&D on a regular basis. Compared to that, ~80k subscribers isn't actually all that many.



> And then it stopped. Not what I would do to a successful endeavor. Especially since it happened around Essential's launch. When new breath was supposed to be infused into 4e.




That could indicate failure, or it could indicate a change in direction. The time in question was also marked by the transition from Bill Slavicsek to Mike Mearls as the big cheese over there, which as we know has also seen the shift towards a much more sparce release schedule.

If the higher-ups at WotC were indeed sold DDI on the basis of hundreds of thousands of subscribers, they may well have looked at the ~80k they actually got and concluded, "that's good, but not good enough to justify further investment." As such, when they went through the edition cycle again, since the old tools were no longer relevant, and with no willingness for further investment, the programme come to a natural end point.

Unless, of course, the strategy changes again.


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## ssvegeta555 (Mar 23, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Yep. If I don't like something ( HotDQ ) I'm just not going to review it. I'm not a professional reviewer, just someone who loves games. And this module blew me away. I quickly shelved the plans I had for my campaign, and pushed the party towards the Sumber Hills. My review is deliberately a little vague, because the book isn't out yet, and I don't want to get anyone in trouble. ( I shouldn't have it yet, not until Friday. ) I will try to expand it more this week.
> 
> And I wish there was a way to rate with half stars, because I would have rated several of the things I've reviewed 4.5. ( Including this one.)




I'm glad to hear that. HotDQ left a bad taste in my mouth, that's for sure. I'm glad to hear this module is much better. From what I can gather, it's closer to LMoP which I absolutely loved. And I wouldn't worry about being vague just because the book isn't out yet for a few more days. I say take advantage of the fact you're the only one who has access to the book.  But that's just me.


----------



## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

Mercule said:


> If we'd started with HotDQ instead of LMoP, we probably wouldn't be playing 5E, right now. I can't put my finger on it, but I just didn't like HotDQ. LMoP was a blast, though.
> 
> 
> While I get you're not a professional reviewer, I'd love more information. I appreciate that you've come in here and given a bit more detail. Thanks. The fact that you were less than awed by HotDQ already lends weight to your review, IMO.
> ...




It's pretty much ready to go out of the box. It has twenty or so plot hooks to possibly dole out to characters one way or another. It also has reasons for each faction to send adventurers there to check things out. The town that functions as a "home base" of sorts has two levels of clues/rumors/plot hooks depending on whether the party is level one or level 3/4. I, personally, adapted the plot hooks to be a series of dreams that I emailed my players a week before our first session. Each character had an individualized dream customized to their character. I guess I did a pretty good job personalizing them, as the players didn't really want to compare dreams at our first session. ( The Barbarian laughed about having a "wet dream" as he woke covered in sea water from a dream of the ship he grew up on being wracked by a storm apparently directed by a man covered in barnacles, hoisting a trident above his head. )



Mercule said:


> - How tied to the Realms is it? This is the other reason I didn't run HotDQ: I strongly dislike the Realms and didn't see any way to neatly decouple the adventure from the setting w/o massively rewriting portions.
> 
> - Corollary: Could it be move to Eberron? You said there was a small conversion guide. Does it have advice on integration or just where to file off the serial numbers?




As I said, eight pages of ideas for converting to other worlds, including Eberron. I haven't but skimmed that section, as I'm a pretty big fan of the Forgotten Realms. ( In fact, I did a lot of work to convert Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil to Faerun, back in the day. I know, sacrilege to some. ) 



Mercule said:


> - Is it a campaign or a big adventure? The difference is in including a place for the PCs to have some downtime and a base, as well as an opportunity (vs. requirement) to branch out from what's present and add a side quest or two.




It's not exactly a mega dungeon. While the places are all connected, they shouldn't be completed as if they are. Travelling back to town fairly often should be something that gets done. There are a good number of side quests presented, some related to the main quest, but some completely divorced from it. There are also a number of scenarios detailing the responses from the cults, as the heroes start taking down parts of the temples. ( They will at some point begin lashing out at the local towns and communities. ) As far as establishing a base, there are a number of places where it would make total sense to do so. One thing that gets mentioned in passing a couple of times, but I don't see directly addressed is the possible need to guard some of the locations as they get cleared out. These would be good places to establish a base of operations.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

goldomark said:


> That is the most disconcerting part of WotC's plan for 5e. They decided to put all their eggs in the AP basket. A type of product they never mastered and have a poor repution with adventures. Their main rival pretty much wrote the book on APs and is at the top of its game. WotC needs to out perform Paizo to impress everyone.
> 
> If only WotC _also_ bet on one of D&D's strenghts as a back up. Um... What are D&D's strenghts nowadays that can be profitable? Campaign settings? Simple rules? Doesn't that mean more splat or rule variants?




So, why is it that you pretty much have to turn every thread that you participate in in the D&D5e part of enworld into a "crap all over Wizards" thread? I mean, here you are in a discussion of a review of an adventure quibbling about the number of subscribers to DDI. It's perfectly OK to not like things. Totally fine, in fact. But why do you have to try to bring everyone else down? I mean, I dislike Pathfinder, but you don't find me all over the Pathfinder boards snarking about Paizo. I very much dislike GW ( after years of being a fan, and owning far, far too many of their miniatures, ) but I don't go out of my way to trash talk them. So, why do you have to be a jerk? Why do you have so much direct, personal animosity towards them? Did Wizards pee in your breakfast cereal? Did they kick your puppy? Did your wife cheat on you with someone who works there? 

Just asking.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 24, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> It's pretty much ready to go out of the box. It has twenty or so plot hooks to possibly dole out to characters one way or another. It also has reasons for each faction to send adventurers there to check things out. The town that functions as a "home base" of sorts has two levels of clues/rumors/plot hooks depending on whether the party is level one or level 3/4. I, personally, adapted the plot hooks to be a series of dreams that I emailed my players a week before our first session. Each character had an individualized dream customized to their character. I guess I did a pretty good job personalizing them, as the players didn't really want to compare dreams at our first session. ( The Barbarian laughed about having a "wet dream" as he woke covered in sea water from a dream of the ship he grew up on being wracked by a storm apparently directed by a man covered in barnacles, hoisting a trident above his head. )
> 
> 
> 
> ...




This is some really cool and helpful info.


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## MoonSong (Mar 24, 2015)

@_*Fildrigar*_ you meanie... I was perfectly fine skipping on PotA and now you had to come and ruin it for me... I hope you are proud, now I'm gonna need $50 and skip on the spell cards. Thanks a lot...

signed. A very grateful and angry bunny.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonSong(Kaiilurker) said:


> @_*Fildrigar*_ you meanie... I was perfectly fine skipping on PotA and now you had to come and ruin it for me... I hope you are proud, now I'm gonna need $50 and skip on the spell cards. Thanks a lot...
> 
> signed. A very grateful and angry bunny.




You can get for $30 on Amazon or Indigo.


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## MoonSong (Mar 24, 2015)

MonsterEnvy said:


> You can get for $30 on Amazon or Indigo.




Thanks for the suggestion, but there's international shipping on top of it in Amazon, as for indigo, you mean the clothing store?


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonSong(Kaiilurker) said:


> Thanks for the suggestion, but there's international shipping on top of it in Amazon, as for indigo, you mean the clothing store?




http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca...RINCES+OF+THE+APOCALYPSE&ikwsec=Home&ikwidx=0

Looks like free shipping there. It's Canadian so don't know how it would effect you.


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## pukunui (Mar 24, 2015)

The Book Depository will probably have it for less than $50, and they don't charge for shipping no matter where you are in the world.


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## MoonSong (Mar 24, 2015)

MonsterEnvy said:


> http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/en-ca...RINCES+OF+THE+APOCALYPSE&ikwsec=Home&ikwidx=0
> 
> Looks like free shipping there. It's Canadian so don't know how it would effect you.




Those look like real bargains, I will need to find a way to research the exact shipping costs. Hopefully i wouldn't have any import taxes from Canada, but who knows.



pukunui said:


> The Book Depository will probably have it for less than $50, and they don't charge for shipping no matter where you are in the world.




Thank you! Now I'm dead sure import taxes are going to be present and need to take it into account. Don't you hate bureaucracy?


----------



## pukunui (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonSong(Kaiilurker) said:


> Thank you! Now I'm dead sure import taxes are going to be present and need to take it into account. Don't you hate bureaucracy?



What country are you in? I've never had to pay import taxes for anything I've ordered from the Book Depository. I live in New Zealand.


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## TarionzCousin (Mar 24, 2015)

MoonSong(Kaiilurker) said:


> Those look like real bargains, I will need to find a way to research the exact shipping costs. Hopefully i wouldn't have any import taxes from Canada, but who knows.
> 
> Thank you! Now I'm dead sure import taxes are going to be present and need to take it into account. Don't you hate bureaucracy?



Amazon drones delivering to the Moon will undoubtedly be expensive.

Thanks [MENTION=67925]Fildrigar[/MENTION] for the useful information. Your posts have piqued my interest. Now, the wait begins....


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## MoonSong (Mar 24, 2015)

pukunui said:


> What country are you in? I've never had to pay import taxes for anything I've ordered from the Book Depository. I live in New Zealand.




It is a riddle. Translate my listed location to a certain language and you will get the name of my country, which nationality is also the endonym for that same language. Sorry just loonie behaviour n_n


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## Magistus71 (Mar 24, 2015)

JTorres said:


> Now that's interesting!  I wonder if adding this appendix was a response to gamers who were upset because of the move of an Elemental Evil adventure from Oerth to Faerun or if it was planned for the beginning to be ported over to whatever setting a DM wanted.  Either way, if these big APs are the new norm for WotC, I hope they continue adding these appendices.




I wish people would stop thinking this is the Temple of Elemental Evil, it is not, so this does not need to be set on Oerth.  While this has been inspired by that it is it's own adventure, hence why it is on Faerun.


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## pukunui (Mar 24, 2015)

Magistus71 said:


> I wish people would stop thinking this is the Temple of Elemental Evil, it is not, so this does not need to be set on Oerth.  While this has been inspired by that it is it's own adventure, hence why it is on Faerun.



Besides which: why do people want a _new_ ToEE adventure set on Greyhawk? Why not just update the original? Personally, I'm quite happy they chose to take the elemental evil theme and put it in a new setting. It might still come across as a bit of a rehash (just like ToD was a bit of a Dragonlance rehash), but not as much as it would've been had it been set in Greyhawk.


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## nicolas.carrillos (Mar 24, 2015)

Could the author please briefly describe the outline for adapting the adventure to Eberron? Thanks!


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

nicolas.carrillos said:


> Could the author please briefly describe the outline for adapting the adventure to Eberron? Thanks!




Sorry, that's beyond the scope of a review. I did add more information to the review itself.


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## Krypter (Mar 24, 2015)

Page count? Thank you.


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## Mercule (Mar 24, 2015)

[MENTION=67925]Fildrigar[/MENTION]: Thanks. That was very helpful.



MonsterEnvy said:


> You can get for $30 on Amazon or Indigo.



I've said before that I'll pay the difference between the FLGS and Amazon if there's something I'm getting for the difference beyond the warm fuzzy of gifting money to someone. In this case, I'll be travelling next weekend, so the early release date gets me the time I need to absorb the module and the Eberron conversion notes in time to actually use it for my group. Definitely worth the cost.

The information provided here pretty much took this from a "maybe order it, for my next game" to a "almost certainly buy early and use immediately".


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

Mercule said:


> [MENTION=67925]Fildrigar[/MENTION]: Thanks. That was very helpful.
> 
> 
> I've said before that I'll pay the difference between the FLGS and Amazon if there's something I'm getting for the difference beyond the warm fuzzy of gifting money to someone. In this case, I'll be travelling next weekend, so the early release date gets me the time I need to absorb the module and the Eberron conversion notes in time to actually use it for my group. Definitely worth the cost.
> ...




I think it's that good. I immediately abandoned the plans I had for my campaign post-Phandelver to direct the party to this adventure.


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## TailleferTheWise (Mar 24, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> I think it's that good. I immediately abandoned the plans I had for my campaign post-Phandelver to direct the party to this adventure.




Does this mean there is an easy way to integrate LMoP with PotA as rumored? I've got one group going through Pandelver now, and another deciding if they want to do that or Princes. If you could easily start out PotA partway through with a transition from Lost Mine, that would be pretty cool.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

TailleferTheWise said:


> Does this mean there is an easy way to integrate LMoP with PotA as rumored? I've got one group going through Pandelver now, and another deciding if they want to do that or Princes. If you could easily start out PotA partway through with a transition from Lost Mine, that would be pretty cool.




Did you read the review?

Yes. It is easy to integrate immediately post-Phandelver.


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## TailleferTheWise (Mar 24, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Did you read the review?
> 
> Yes. It is easy to integrate immediately post-Phandelver.




I read your first iteration of it, I must have overlooked that part, unless it was added in after.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

TailleferTheWise said:


> I read your first iteration of it, I must have overlooked that part, unless it was added in after.




I have been adding to my review.


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## TailleferTheWise (Mar 24, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> I have been adding to my review.




Ok you mention in your review that it's easy to send people over from LMoP, but also that PotA starts off at level 3. Am I to take this to mean it's not to big of an issue to bring 4th-5th level characters in, or would encounters need a fair amount of tweaking to make them more challenging? Thanks for all the info!


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

TailleferTheWise said:


> Ok you mention in your review that it's easy to send people over from LMoP, but also that PotA starts off at level 3. Am I to take this to mean it's not to big of an issue to bring 4th-5th level characters in, or would encounters need a fair amount of tweaking to make them more challenging? Thanks for all the info!




It's not too big of an issue, but might take some tweaking. Bounded accuracy means an encounter a level or two below isn't going to automatically be a complete pushover.  

In my campaign, the PCs ended Phandelver at level 4. Partly because I had 6 players at one point, partly because they skipped a few encounters. 

In PotA, the first external temple you run into isn't automatically, inherently hostile. ( The air themed one.  It's the one tuned for level 3.) This made it easy for me to run it as a more investigatory chapter. ( Do you guys know anything about some evil cults acting in the area? Oh yeah. Those nasty earth guys are over there. Hey, we'll give you a lift on our flying mounts.) Partly that's because I have a good grasp on the traditions of Elemental Evil. ( skirmishing between the various elemental cults at lower levels. ) 

Hope this helps.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

I could easily have beefed it up a bit, but honestly my players aren't really optimizers. They're mostly more about the Story and playing with friends. We're down to five players now, and the air guys will be back when orders from higher in the cult come back. ( You what! You sent adventurers after the earth cult? What were you thinking? Go kick their butts now! ) 

I like a living adventure with things going on behind the scenes. No static, video gamey adventures for me.


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## graves3141 (Mar 24, 2015)

Mercule said:


> The information provided here pretty much took this from a "maybe order it, for my next game" to a "almost certainly buy early and use immediately".




Me as well, I was kinda on the fence but I'm definitely getting it now that I know more about it.  It sounds like a top-notch adventure.  If it's as good as it sounds then maybe people will start seeing PotA as the flagship adventure for 5E.


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## Chocolategravy (Mar 24, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> It's not too big of an issue, but might take some tweaking. Bounded accuracy means an encounter a level or two below isn't going to automatically be a complete pushover.



     There is a discontinuity in the power curve at level 5.  A 5th level party getting 2x the number of attacks from the extra attack ability, 2x the number of shots with their cantrips which all double in power at level 5 and dropping fireballs on enemy groups that only have enough HP for fighting a level 3 party will indeed be a complete pushover.  5E doesn't have bounded accuracy regardless.


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## TwoSix (Mar 24, 2015)

Chocolategravy said:


> There is a discontinuity in the power curve at level 5.  A 5th level party getting 2x the number of attacks from the extra attack ability, 2x the number of shots with their cantrips which all double in power at level 5 and dropping fireballs on enemy groups that only have enough HP for fighting a level 3 party will indeed be a complete pushover. 5E doesn't have bounded accuracy regardless.



Disregarding the last sentence, there is definitely a soft tier system in 5e, with breaks at 5 and 11, and softer breaks at 17 and 20.  Getting the 2nd attack and opening up 3rd level spells is a big deal.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

My intention is to write up a bunch of ideas I have for enhancing the adventure and integrating a post-Phandelver party into it. Post-release.


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## Dire Bare (Mar 24, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Yep. That's what always comes next. Prove it. Thanks, buddy.




Ignore the haters man, your review is welcome. These folks complain about EVERYTHING, even other people's product reviews. There's a reason why the guy you're responding to is on my ignore list, although he's so good at getting responses I feel like I'm reading all his posts anyway.


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## thalmin (Mar 24, 2015)

Krypter said:


> Page count? Thank you.



248 pages total.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 24, 2015)

thalmin said:


> 248 pages total.




256 which was brought up earlier in this thread.


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## Drammattex (Mar 24, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> In PotA, the first external temple you run into...




WAAAAAAAAAAAAANT!

My preciousssss.....


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## Mercule (Mar 24, 2015)

Oh. One more question....

Does it have a specific placement in Eberron? I placed Phandelver in Aundair and am curious how much that first step is going to hurt.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 24, 2015)

Mercule said:


> Oh. One more question....
> 
> Does it have a specific placement in Eberron? I placed Phandelver in Aundair and am curious how much that first step is going to hurt.




From the adventure:


> There are enough blank spaces on the map in Eberron that you should be able to translocate the Dessarin Valley wholesale;


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## pukunui (Mar 24, 2015)

[MENTION=67925]Fildrigar[/MENTION]: You mentioned previously that the archomentals have CRs in the 18-19 range. That seems a bit low to me. Are you able to say whether they are the *real* archomentals or are they just lower-level aspects of them?


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## Fildrigar (Mar 25, 2015)

pukunui said:


> [MENTION=67925]Fildrigar[/MENTION]: You mentioned previously that the archomentals have CRs in the 18-19 range. That seems a bit low to me. Are you able to say whether they are the *real* archomentals or are they just lower-level aspects of them?




When I wrote that, I was out at the pub having beers, and away from the book. ( Which is why I posed "IIRC" )  Air/Water are 18, Fire is 19, and Earth is 20. They have some pretty decent Lair actions, and are accompanied by their respective prophets. ( And a few of the prophet's bodyguards. ) You actually only end up fighting one of the Princes of Elemental Evil. You fight each prophet, but only the final one has completed the summoning. Even if the CRs seem a little low, I'm quite sure they are going to provide a very harrowing fight.


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## pukunui (Mar 25, 2015)

[MENTION=67925]Fildrigar[/MENTION]: Sounds good! Thanks.

Any chance you could touch on the list of new critters in Chapter 7 (even if just in a PM)?


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## Fildrigar (Mar 25, 2015)

pukunui said:


> [MENTION=67925]Fildrigar[/MENTION]: Sounds good! Thanks.
> 
> Any chance you could touch on the list of new critters in Chapter 7 (even if just in a PM)?




Mostly cultists in chapter 7. Plus, Princes of Elemental Evil, and myrmidions. ( Slightly different elementals in plate armor. )


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 25, 2015)

Had a Feeling Ogremoch would be the strongest of the 4. He is stated as being the Eldest of the Elemental Princes while Yan-C-Bin is the youngest.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 25, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Mostly cultists in chapter 7. Plus, Princes of Elemental Evil, and myrmidions. ( Slightly different elementals in plate armor. )




Mymidions must be the replacement for the Elemental Archons from 4e.


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## pukunui (Mar 25, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Mostly cultists in chapter 7. Plus, Princes of Elemental Evil, and myrmidions. ( Slightly different elementals in plate armor. )



OK. Thanks! On a side note, is Olhydra still a princess rather than a prince?



MonsterEnvy said:


> Had a Feeling Ogremoch would be the strongest of the 4. He is stated as being the Eldest of the Elemental Princes while Yan-C-Bin is the youngest.



'Tis a pity they're just using four of them. Cryonax is pretty cool too. (Pun intended?)



MonsterEnvy said:


> Mymidions must be the replacement for the Elemental Archons from 4e.



That's what I'm thinking too.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 25, 2015)

pukunui said:


> OK. Thanks! On a side note, is Olhydra still a princess rather than a prince?.




Olhydra, Princess of Evil Water. Yes.


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## pukunui (Mar 25, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Olhydra, Princess of Evil Water. Yes.



OK. Good. The only reason I asked is because I was looking at the (admittedly hard to read) preview image of GF9's Elemental Evil DM screen, and it kind of looked like the caption for the image of Olhydra on the screen read "Prince" rather than "Princess", so I wondered if maybe they'd changed it. I'm glad to hear they haven't.

(It's also entirely possible GF9 got it wrong on the screen.)


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## Markh3rd (Mar 25, 2015)

Are any of the adventures underwater? I'm curious if the water genasi get tto use their swimming and water breathing features in game.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 25, 2015)

Markh3rd said:


> Are any of the adventures underwater? I'm curious if the water genasi get tto use their swimming and water breathing features in game.




I personally would not be surprised in there was a not a lot of water in the Cult of the Crushing Wave part of the adventure. But I don't own the book so no idea.


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## TRDG (Mar 25, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Yep. If I don't like something ( HotDQ ) I'm just not going to review it. I'm not a professional reviewer, just someone who loves games. And this module blew me away. I quickly shelved the plans I had for my campaign, and pushed the party towards the Sumber Hills. My review is deliberately a little vague, because the book isn't out yet, and I don't want to get anyone in trouble. ( I shouldn't have it yet, not until Friday. ) I will try to expand it more this week.
> 
> And I wish there was a way to rate with half stars, because I would have rated several of the things I've reviewed 4.5. ( Including this one.)




Thanks for the updated review and I hope you kinda know what I was thinking when I first posted on this bud.  HotDQ and TRoT was such a huge let down for me, so that (rightly or wrongly) carries over to "well how "good" or Bad" will this one be..??" kind of thing!!

And then I saw your (first effort) review on the "news" with a 5 Stars and when I read it it seemed like I just did not feel there was enough listed there specifically to rate it as such.  So I ended up starting to think was this perhaps a "5th Ed can't go wrong" kinda thing or was it really that much of a better campaign compared to their first try???

Well 2 more days and I'll know for myself and still hoping it does in fact offer that much more (and live up to your 5 star rating) than the other two campaign books, ha ha

Also, would it ever be considered to change the star rating system to get the half stars as an option by chance here on EN WORLD, pretty please. 

Tom


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## Fildrigar (Mar 25, 2015)

TRDG said:


> Thanks for the updated review and I hope you kinda know what I was thinking when I first posted on this bud.  HotDQ and TRoT was such a huge let down for me, so that (rightly or wrongly) carries over to "well how "good" or Bad" will this one be..??" kind of thing!!
> 
> And then I saw your (first effort) review on the "news" with a 5 Stars and when I read it it seemed like I just did not feel there was enough listed there specifically to rate it as such.  So I ended up starting to think was this perhaps a "5th Ed can't go wrong" kinda thing or was it really that much of a better campaign compared to their first try???
> 
> ...




I've continued updating the review. I started with 4.5 stars ( though the EnWorld rating system will only let me put 5) but upon reflection raised it to 4.75. You see, reviews are subjective, and the things I was dropping a half star for are the things that I enjoy doing anyway. ( Fiddling with the structure of the adventure. Using DM powers to make things fit the way I want to run it. )


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## TRDG (Mar 25, 2015)

Yep, totally understood, right now I am kind of struggling with PF's Giantslayer's first module "ratings" I will do in the near future.  I'll let ya know about this one once I get it in hand and have a bit of time to read and ponder my thoughts about it, compared to yours, and others I am sure by then, LOL.

Cheers, til then, have fun DM creating bud

Tom


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## Fildrigar (Mar 25, 2015)

I have a three page pdf I've written up full of ideas for linking LMoP to PotA. ( plus, ideas to help the flow of the adventure.) I'll probably post it Friday, but it might be up to four or five pages by then. I just can't help myself.


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## ExoKnight (Mar 25, 2015)

How many new monsters in the book?


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## carmachu (Mar 25, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> I've continued updating the review. I started with 4.5 stars ( though the EnWorld rating system will only let me put 5) but upon reflection raised it to 4.75. You see, reviews are subjective, and the things I was dropping a half star for are the things that I enjoy doing anyway. ( Fiddling with the structure of the adventure. Using DM powers to make things fit the way I want to run it. )




Honestly I can't wait to see it. I have it and wondering if folks will have similar opinions on it.


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## CasvalRemDeikun (Mar 25, 2015)

In regard to the appendix on how to run the adventure in other settings, does it give any sort of hints on Lost Mines of Phandelver, since the maps of each adventure either touch or are very close together?


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## pukunui (Mar 26, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> You actually only end up fighting one of the Princes of Elemental Evil. You fight each prophet, but only the final one has completed the summoning.



Is this predetermined in the module, or does it depend on how the PCs progress through the adventure? That is, could one group end up fighting Olhydra while another group ends up fighting Imix?


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## Fildrigar (Mar 26, 2015)

pukunui said:


> Is this predetermined in the module, or does it depend on how the PCs progress through the adventure? That is, could one group end up fighting Olhydra while another group ends up fighting Imix?




It entirely depends on the path the party takes to the end. ( Or the path their DM directs them along. ) And I wouldn't want to be in the party fighting Imix, because, reasons. ( Fire, bad. Lava, worse. )


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## pukunui (Mar 26, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> It entirely depends on the path the party takes to the end. ( Or the path their DM directs them along. ) And I wouldn't want to be in the party fighting Imix, because, reasons. ( Fire, bad. Lava, worse. )



LOL. Fair enough. Still, it's good to know that the ending isn't predetermined as such. Yes, one prophet successfully summons their prince(ss), but which one succeeds is up in the air, so to speak. That gets a thumbs up in my book.


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## MonsterEnvy (Mar 26, 2015)

pukunui said:


> LOL. Fair enough. Still, it's good to know that the ending isn't predetermined as such. Yes, one prophet successfully summons their prince(ss), but which one succeeds is up in the air, so to speak. That gets a thumbs up in my book.




I am guessing the scenario is like this. The Prophets have started summoning their Elemental Prince. The party can say go to the Water Area and take down Gar, then to the Fire Area to take down Vanifer, then by the time they go and take down Aerisi in the Air area Marlos has finished summoning Ogrémoch. However if they went and took down Marlos instead of Aerisi, then by the time they beat Marlos Yan-C-Bin would be summoned. Same situation for the other Prophets.


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## pukunui (Mar 26, 2015)

Exactly.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 26, 2015)

MonsterEnvy said:


> I am guessing the scenario is like this. The Prophets have started summoning their Elemental Prince. The party can say go to the Water Area and take down Gar, then to the Fire Area to take down Vanifer, then by the time they go and take down Aerisi in the Air area Marlos has finished summoning Ogrémoch. However if they went and took down Marlos instead of Aerisi, then by the time they beat Marlos Yan-C-Bin would be summoned. Same situation for the other Prophets.




It's a little bit different from that. Each "lower temple" has an area where the prophet for that element is generally found. The first of those areas you enter, you face that prophet. As soon as one dies, the rest of the prophets are called away. The sub level devoted to the Elder Elemental Eye has an alter area where you will face one of the remaining three. The Nodes of the remaining prophets have them there, attempting to summon "their" Prince. The final prophet who remains alive succeeds with the summoning just as the party arrives.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 26, 2015)

Markh3rd said:


> Are any of the adventures underwater? I'm curious if the water genasi get tto use their swimming and water breathing features in game.




There is, as you would expect, a lot of water in the water node. It's not completely underwater, though.


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## DMZ2112 (Mar 26, 2015)

I really dig this book from page 243 on.  The setting conversion suggestions are full of love and well received, and the concept art reminds me of my favorite pieces from D&D3.   I actually had to check to see if they'd brought Lockwood back (they hadn't    ).  But it's too little to justify a purchase.  

The adventure content seems really useful, but I'm not in the habit of using published adventure content.  Overall I find the worldbuilding content underwhelming -- it doesn't really tell us much about the Realms, probably because it is so out of place.  This is a Greyhawk conflict transplanted into a world that already has enough conflicts of its own.

The book seems like an excellent product; it's just too focused for me.

As this is what we can expect to see as the primary source of D&D tabletop material going forward, I want to want to buy these books and support the hobby.  But in return they have to provide more kinds of support for my table beyond pretty maps and inspired encounter design.  The effort is there, but it's going to take more content diversity to win my dollar.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 27, 2015)

DMZ2112 said:


> I really dig this book from page 243 on.  The setting conversion suggestions are full of love and well received, and the concept art reminds me of my favorite pieces from D&D3.   I actually had to check to see if they'd brought Lockwood back (they hadn't    ).  But it's too little to justify a purchase.
> 
> The adventure content seems really useful, but I'm not in the habit of using published adventure content.  Overall I find the worldbuilding content underwhelming -- it doesn't really tell us much about the Realms, probably because it is so out of place.  This is a Greyhawk conflict transplanted into a world that already has enough conflicts of its own.
> 
> ...




Love all of the concept art in the back. It's really good. I *very* strongly suspect that a Forgotten Realms setting book will be one of the next products we see. 

And I disagree about this being a Greyhawk conflict. But, I did set RttoEE in the Realms, so I might be biased.


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## DMZ2112 (Mar 27, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> Love all of the concept art in the back. It's really good. I *very* strongly suspect that a Forgotten Realms setting book will be one of the next products we see.




I'm not sure why you'd think that given the total absence of evidence and clear statements to the contrary made by the developers.



> And I disagree about this being a Greyhawk conflict. But, I did set RttoEE in the Realms, so I might be biased.




Yeah, I think that if I moved the Ruins of Undermountain to Oerth it would be evidence of a setting bias.


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## Mercule (Mar 27, 2015)

Fildrigar said:


> And I disagree about this being a Greyhawk conflict. But, I did set RttoEE in the Realms, so I might be biased.



It is, but only from a certain point of view </kenobi>.

As someone who picked up the game while Gygax was still actively writing stuff, his work has always had a special charm -- even though I generally ran in a homebrew setting. When the FR gray box came onto the scene, it had its own character, so to speak, which didn't wow me, but wasn't horribly offensive, either. As it gained steam, though, it seemed to take elements that were strongly tied to Greyhawk and co-opt them. That has, in large part, driven my disdain of the Realms becoming the default setting of D&D.

There's no good reason why Elemental Evil stuff couldn't work just fine outside the Realms, and I'm actually all for treating the Realms fairly in the appendix. Officially placing the latest installment of Elemental Evil in the Realms, though, feels a bit like another cup of salty urine being dumped on an old wound.

As long as things are relatively easy to relocate to, say, Eberron or my 30-year-old home brew, I won't yelp too much. I get the benefit of an assumed/default setting and the Greyhawk ship has sailed. If the _Tyranny of Dragons_ modules are more representative -- a lackluster adventure that I found too hard to decouple from the Realms -- then my purchasing of future adventures will be pretty limited. Unfortunately, with four kids, a full-time job, and multiple volunteer/extracurricular activities, most of what I want to buy is adventures that are fun and easy to run. The high school/college GM in me shudders at the thought, but it's the reality of my stage of life.

Edit: This wasn't intended as a setting/edition/whatever flame, and I hope it doesn't read that way. Please go back to discussing the adventure.


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## Prism (Mar 27, 2015)

Mercule said:


> It is, but only from a certain point of view </kenobi>.
> 
> As someone who picked up the game while Gygax was still actively writing stuff, his work has always had a special charm -- even though I generally ran in a homebrew setting. When the FR gray box came onto the scene, it had its own character, so to speak, which didn't wow me, but wasn't horribly offensive, either. As it gained steam, though, it seemed to take elements that were strongly tied to Greyhawk and co-opt them. That has, in large part, driven my disdain of the Realms becoming the default setting of D&D.
> 
> ...




I like both worlds pretty evenly and our high level campaign does a fair bit of plane jumping between the two when needed. I'm happy this adventure seems to cover the elemental princes theme without dragging Tharizdun into the plot. I'm not against Tharizdun being a multiverse threat rather than a Greyhawk threat (we certainly use him like that), but I don't feel this adventure needed that and there are enough big threats to FR without another one being brought in.

The concept of elemental evil and in particular the elemental princes predate the original temple of elemental evil in Greyhawk as they appeared in Fiend Folio first so I reckon its fair game to set this in FR. I am aware that using the term elemental evil still has the perception of being a Greyhawk thing though - and rightly so considering the fame of the original adventure - even if that's not entirely correct


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## DMZ2112 (Mar 27, 2015)

Prism said:


> I'm happy this adventure seems to cover the elemental princes theme without dragging Tharizdun into the plot.




This is such a minor concern that I hesitate to even mention it, but I was actually turned off by how non-committal the adventure was about Tharizdun.  It actually uses the phrase "The Elder Elemental Eye -- whatever that is" at one point.  

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I know Tharizdun being the EEE is controversial canon, but that's not really the point.  The EEE ought to be /something/ specific.  If this stuff is really a multiversal threat, then /own/ it and make it a multiversal threat.  Don't tell me the threat of elemental evil crops up on multiple worlds independently for coincidental world-specific reasons.  As Gabe and Tycho from Penny Arcade would say, that's like peeing in my mouth and telling me it's raining.  I know it's not raining -- _you're peeing in my mouth_.

Between me and Mercule this is becoming another pee thread.  Dammit.



> The concept of elemental evil and in particular the elemental princes predate the original temple of elemental evil in Greyhawk as they appeared in Fiend Folio first so I reckon its fair game to set this in FR.




It's absolutely fair game.  The economics of doing so are clear, and even setting cynicism aside elemental evil /should/ be a credible multiversal threat to the worlds of D&D.  It's only unfortunate because this could have been an opportunity to provide greater clarity about the post-Spellplague crises of the Sword Coast /or/ an opportunity to provide some information about the post-post-Living Greyhawk crises of Verbobonc and Dyvers, and instead it is fully relevant to neither setting.*

I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, leave Greyhawk to Greyhawk, but even more importantly if you're going to do the Forgotten Realms, /do the Forgotten Realms/.


*What I was secretly hoping was that Princes of the Apocalypse would involve traveling between Faerun and the Flanaess through the inner planes, setting up a third adventure path set on Oerth, followed by a fourth AP that would take us from Greyhawk to Athas through the astral... but I'm just much better at this than the guys at Wizards.


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## Fildrigar (Mar 28, 2015)

I just uploaded my guide to integrating LMoP with PotA. It includes some general ideas to help the flow of the adventure for newer DMs. It's a living document, I plan on fleshing it out further.


http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?434896-Integrating-LMoP-with-PotA


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