# Converting monsters from Dragon magazine (Part Two)



## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Part Two.  

Original thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 post count.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Let's get this one out of the way while centaurs are still fresh in our mind.

*CENTAUR, SEA*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: //24"
HIT DICE: 5
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: See below
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 weapon
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 5%
INTELLIGENCE: Average to exceptional
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
SIZE: L (12-15' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: V/245 + 5/hp

These aquatic creatures appear to be a cross between a triton and a hippocampus.  They are found in any area where either of the other two creatures might be found.

Sea centaurs usually gather in small, nomadic families, but occasionally may be found amongst a group of tritons. Tritons feel superior to the sea centaurs because of the latter's lesser abilities (e.g., lower magic resistance, lack of psionic ability, etc.); tritons sometimes use sea centaurs as mounts if the latter are agreeable.  

For the most part, sea centaurs have no treasure (except for an occasional piece of jewelry), although 10% of them have acquired tritons' magic conch shells. When used by sea centaurs, these shells summon 2-8 hippocampi; they can also be used to send messages underwater within a halfmile radius.

There is a 10% chance that any sea centaur has the ability to cast spells as a 1st-4th level druid. All sea centaurs speak triton and hippocampus, and 25% of them also speak common. They say little about the deity they worship, but it is assumed to be the same one as worshiped by the tritons (i.e., Triton).

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Compare to 2e standard centaur stats...

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate forest 
FREQUENCY: Rare 
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Omnivorous 
INTELLIGENCE: Low to average (5-10) 
TREASURE: M, Q (D, I, T) 
ALIGNMENT: Neutral or chaotic good 
NO. APPEARING: 1-8 
ARMOR CLASS: 5 (4) 
MOVEMENT: 18 
HIT DICE: 4 
THAC0: 17 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6/1-6 and weapon 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil 
SIZE: L(8'-9' tall) 
MORALE: Elite (13-14) 
XP VALUE: 175 
Centaur leader 270 
Centaur priest 420

Centaur: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 11, +3 natural
Hippocampus: Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 5, Wis 13, Cha 8, +3 natural
Triton: Str 12, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11, +6 natural

Average to Exceptional translates to Int 8-16.

AC = 15 with no armor suggested.

How about: Str 18, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11, +4 natural (to go with +2 Dex and -1 size)?


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## RavinRay (Feb 18, 2008)

Would it be feasible to adapt the tauric template to the triton and hippocampus (_Stormwrack_, not _Arms and Equipment Guide_) to come up with sea centaur? It gets the Str, Dex and Con of the hippocampus and the Int, Wis and Cha of the triton.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

The template would give it Str 16, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11 and +6 natural armor.

Or Str +6, Dex +4, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +2.

Compared with typical centaur's Str +8, Dexterity +4, Constitution +4, Intelligence -2, Wisdom +2. 

So basically it would trade some Str and Con for greater Wisdom.  I could live with that.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Sounds fine to me.  Monstrous humanoid (aquatic), btw?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I went with the standard triton weapons (trident and heavy crossbow).

Skills: 24
Hippocampus has Listen and Spot
Triton has Craft (any one), Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival 

Feats: 2
Hippocampus has Alertness, Iron Will
Triton has Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack

Organization:: Solitary, family (2–3), or x (x plus x tritons)
Tritons are Company (2–5), squad (6–11), or band (20–80)

Challenge Rating: 4? (Standard 4HD centaur is CR 3)



> For the most part, sea centaurs have no treasure (except for an occasional piece of jewelry), although 10% of them have acquired tritons' magic conch shells. When used by sea centaurs, these shells summon 2-8 hippocampi; they can also be used to send messages underwater within a halfmile radius.




Treasure: No coins; standard goods (jewelry only); standard items?

Tritons no longer have these conch shells.  We could make them, though.



> There is a 10% chance that any sea centaur has the ability to cast spells as a 1st-4th level druid.




Favored class: druid?

A sea centaur is 12 to 15 feet long and weighs about x pounds.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

For skills, let's go with Listen, Spot, and Survival at 8 ranks (we can siphon some off if you want).

Feats: I'd stick with the hippocampus ones, Alertness & Iron Will.

The rest sounds good.  I don't see a real need for the conch shells.  No good idea for the weight at the moment.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Updated.

Let's just go with 2,400 pounds (slightly heavier than a standard centaur).

Anyone know the domains for Triton (the god, not the creature)?

Bonus Languages:  Draconic, Elven (for aquatic elves), Sahuagin?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

No idea about the domains, though Water is an obvious one.  The bonus languages look good.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Some searching revealed that Persana is the deity of the tritons, and his focus is on architecture, and domains include Protection and Water.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Sounds good.  Are these done already?


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

I added Artifice as an additional domain, so they'd have a choice.  It was about the closest thing I could find to architecture.

And yes, it looks like we're done.


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## Leopold (Mar 6, 2008)

What's next?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

*Gargoyle, Spouter*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ruins and occupied dwellings
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (Evil)
NO. APPEARING:
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 14
HIT DICE: 5 + 7
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5/2-5
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (3')
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 1,400

The spouter gargoyle generally looks like an ugly goblinoid statue, often found perched above a door or serving as a raingutter outlet on a roof. Its mouth is always gaping hideously, and its forearms sport two rows of sharp spikes; on its back are two undersized wings, far too small to provide flight.

Combat: Anyone who enters the spouter's territory without sneaking the password or making the appropriate gesture will be attacked, usually from above, by the spouter's acid spittle. This spittle can be used only once every four rounds and has a range of just 5' unless the attack is from above (the spouter can attack anyone directly below it no matter how far down). The acid inflicts 2-40 (2d20) points of damage, with a successful save vs. breath weapons indicating half damage. If the spouter's opponents somehow escape or prove resistant to the acid, the gargoyle can float down using its undersized wings to break its fall. The spouter can attack on the ground using its arm-spikes, which cause 1d4+1 points of damage per attack.

The spouter has a nasty streak and revels in "accidentally" attacking its master or his or her associates if they forget to make the appropriate signal, even if the gargoyle recognizes them as "safe."

The spouter is immune to all forms of acid, is struck only by +1 or better weapons, and can climb wall with 90% probability.

Habitat/Society: Though occasionally matched sets of spouters are found, usually there is only one creature. Very rarely (5%), a group of 1d4+2 spouters has found each other and joined up in defense of their mutual territory.  There isn't much competition between the group members, so there is no chieftain or ruler.

Occasionally, a "free" spouter will offer its services to a powerful evil entity, such is its love of mayhem and its guardian instinct. 

Ecology: Spouters need not eat, drink or sleep, and like all gargoyles can remain perfectly motionless for any length of time. Thus, they generally have little impact on the environment
around them, though their acid works wreaks havoc on mature and often the presence of a spouter can be detected by the numerous acid-scars on plants and structures in the area.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #223 (1995)

---------------------------------------------------------
*Gargoyle, Spouter*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Building or ruin
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 (rarely more)
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5 + 7
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4+1/1d4+1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Acid
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better magical weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: S (3' tall)
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 1,400

The spouter gargoyle generally looks like an ugly imp.  It is often found perched above a door or serving as a raingutter outlet on a roof. Its mouth is always gaping hideously.  Its forearms sport two rows of sharp spikes; on its back are two undersized wings, far too small to provide flight.  When motionless, it is indistinguishable from normal stonework.  However, plant life and structures in the area will often be pitted and scarred, as if by acid.

Combat: Anyone who enters the spouter's territory without uttering a password or making the appropriate gesture will be attacked, usually from above, by the spouter's acid spittle. This spittle can be used once every four rounds and has a range of just 5 feet (unless the attack is from above--the spouter can hit anyone directly below it no matter how far down). The acid inflicts 2d20 points of damage, with a successful save vs. breath weapon indicating half damage. If the spouter's opponents escape or prove resistant to the acid, the gargoyle can float down using its tiny undersized wings to break its fall. On the ground, the spouter can attack using its arm-spikes, which cause 1d4+1 points of damage per attack.

The spouter has a nasty streak and revels in "accidentally" attacking its master or his or her associates if they forget to make the appropriate signal, even if it recognizes them as safe.

The spouter is immune to all forms of acid, is struck only by weapons of +1 enchantment or better, and can climb wall with 90% chance of success.

Habitat/Society: Though matched sets of spouters are occasionally found, usually there will be only one. Very rarely, a group of 1d4+2 spouters will find each other and join for mutual defense of their territory.  There isn't much competition between group members, so they will choose no chieftain or ruler.  Sometimes a "free" spouter, one whose master has been slain, will offer its services to a powerful evil entity, such is its love of mayhem and its guardian instinct. 

Ecology: Spouters need not eat, drink or sleep, and can remain perfectly motionless for any length of time. Thus, they usually have little impact on their surroundings, other than the havoc their acid wreaks on local plants and structures.

(Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three version.)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

OK, so the breath weapon seems fairly easy to convert, but should we make it a ranged touch attack instead? That way, the spouter doesn't become ludicrously overpowered merely by virtue of sitting directly above a party climbing up to melee with it and useless by them all stepping five feet away from the wall and engaging it at range. If we made it a ranged touch, we could make it a Fort save for half damage, keep the Reflex save or just ignore the save altogether.

Other than that, it doesn't have much. Camouflage as an ordinary gargoyle, feather fall, a racial climb speed, DR and acid immunity. Our target CR should probably be only a little higher than an ordinary gargoyle, so it should have more hit dice (and the HD 5+7 seems to support this, although I'm unsure how many Hit Dice gargoyles had in 2e).

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Compared to a standard 2e gargoyle, it appears to have a higher Con (due to greater bonus hps), 1 worse AC (so maybe worse Dex?), and deals more damage with its claws (2-5 vs 1-3), so maybe greater Str.

3e gargoyle ability scores:  Str 15, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 7

So maybe...

Str 17, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 7?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2008)

Those ability scores look pretty much right. 

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2008)

I like the abilities, too.  As far as the "breath weapon," I'm for making it a ranged touch attack and maybe decreasing the damage output a step.  I'd guess we're looking at CR5, so what do you think about the damage?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

For the "wings break the fall", we could model it after feather fall or after the glide ability of the hadozee:

Gliding: A hadozee can use its wings to glide, negating any damage from a fall of any height and allowing travel 20 feet horizontally for every 5 feet of descent. A hadozee glides at a speed of 40 feet (poor maneuverability).

For the spout acid ability, I agree that just allowing it to dump endlessly from above is unfair.  How about if we give it the option of either breathing a 5-foot cone or making a ranged touch attack?   That way, it doesn't draw attacks of opportunity when right next to opponents (if it were just a ranged touch attack)?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2008)

I like Shade's idea of making its breath weapon an option. I think that feather falling was more of what the authors had in mind... but I like gliding. 

As for the damage of the breath weapon, it does seem a bit high... but I really like it. Not too often the d20s get broken out for damage. 

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> As for the damage of the breath weapon, it does seem a bit high... but I really like it. Not too often the d20s get broken out for damage.




Indeed.  Bring on the d20s and d12s for damage!


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

How about the ranged touch is 2d12 but the breath weapon is 2d20 with Ref save for half?  I like glide, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> How about the ranged touch is 2d12 but the breath weapon is 2d20 with Ref save for half?  I like glide, too.



Strikes me as a perfectly good compromise.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2008)

Sounds good, then.  For the skills, how about we max out Hide?  For feats, Stealthy goes with the hiding schtick, but I'm not sure what else is good.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2008)

Sounds good.

Max range on spit acid with touch attack?

Standard gargoyles have Hide, Listen, Spot, and I think all would apply here as well.

Alertness or Improved Initiative for the second feat?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2008)

Make the max range 60ft. Enough so it can sit up from a height and spew at foes. 

We might want to make its feats Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, although we could alternatively give it Precise Shot as a bonus feat. If we did that, make its second "real" feat Improved Initiative.

You are right that all of those skills sound good.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2008)

Hmm, so Hide 2, Listen 3, Spot 3?  Hide can make up for it with the bonuses.

60 ft on the ranged attack, 5 ft cone for the breath?

Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot are really good ideas for the two feats.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2008)

Updated.

20 ft. climb speed?

CR 5 (standard gargoyle is CR 4)?

Advancement: x 
Normal gargoyle is 5–6 HD (Medium); 7–12 HD (Large)

A spouter gargoyle stands 3 feet tall and weighs X pounds. (No weight given for standard gargoyle)


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2008)

20 ft climb, CR 5 sound good.  6-8 HD (Small), 9-12 (Medium)?  50-75 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Mar 13, 2008)

These done, then?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> 20 ft climb, CR 5 sound good.  6-8 HD (Small), 9-12 (Medium)?  50-75 lb?



I'd double that weight--they are made of stone, after all.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I'd double that weight--they are made of stone, after all.




Agreed.  These fellas are finished.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

*Gargoyle, Stone Lion*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Ruins and occupied dwellings
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: See below
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral Good
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 20
HIT DICE: 8+3
THACO: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-10/1-8/1-B
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7' long)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The stone lion is a solemn guardian, often found in pairs, generally serving good priests and wizards.  The lion has an excellent memory for faces and scents and cannot be fooled by disguises. It is usually set up near the main door of the house, but occasionally is placed on ledges overhead - the stone lion can jump down 20' without harm.

Unlike other sorts of gargoyles, the lions are kindly creations and seek to serve as protectors to the world, rather than wreakers of havoc.

Combat: The stone lion is a superior combatant, functioning as if it had Strength and Dexterity scores of 18. It attacks with its crushing bite and deadly claws but often defeats its opponents more with its speed and agility rather than physical power. The stone lion has one special power: it can roar once every three rounds, and this functions as a scare spell.

Habitat/Society: The stone lion occasionally serves as a pet or companion to its owner and can form friendships with living beings as well as other stone lions. 

Ecology: The stone lion has little or no impact on its environment. When not accompanying its master or patrolling the area, the lion is content to sit motionless, defending its territory.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #223 (1995)

---------------------------------------------------------

*Gargoyle, Stone Lion*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Building or ruin
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVEMENT: 21
HIT DICE: 8+3
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d8/1d8/1d10
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Scare
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better magical weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (7' long)
MORALE: Champion (15-16)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The stone lion is a solemn guardian, often found in pairs, generally serving good priests and wizards.  The lion has an excellent memory for faces and scents and cannot be fooled by disguises. The lion is usually set up near the main door of the house, but occasionally is placed on a ledge overhead - the stone lion can jump down 20 feet without harm.

Combat: The stone lion is a superior combatant, functioning as if it had Strength and Dexterity scores of 18. It attacks with its crushing bite and deadly claws, but often defeats its opponents more with its speed and agility rather than physical power. 

The stone lion has one special power: it can roar once every three rounds, and this functions as a scare spell.  Like other gargoyles, a stone lion can be hit only by weapons of +1 or better enchantment.

Habitat/Society: Unlike other types of gargoyles, a stone lion is a kindly creation and seeks to serve as a protector rather than a wreaker of havoc.  It occasionally acts as a pet or companion to its owner, and can form friendships with living beings as well as other stone lions.  It fights only to defend its area or to protect its friends from mortal danger.  When motionless, the stone lion is indistinguishable from a statue of a lion carved from stone.

When its creator dies and the stone lion becomes free-willed, it will often seek to continue its guardian duties along more public lines.  Most commonly they become defenders of temples or of public builidings.  They patrol these confines at night, sitting motionless during the day unless needed.

Ecology: The stone lion is a magical guardian that has little or no impact on its environment.  It need not eat, drink, or sleep.  When not accompanying its master or patrolling the area, the lion is content to sit motionless, defending its territory.

(Monstrous Compendium Annual Volume Three version.)


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Cool, I kind of like the idea of these.  Seems like we know Str 18, Dex 18.  How about mostly borrowing the rest from the regular gargole: Con 18, Int 7, Wis 11, Cha 13?  I bumped Int by 1, so we have half-odd/half-even scores.  I also bumped Cha for the roar DC.  DR 5/magic or 10/magic?  Borrow the roar from the shadow mastiff?

Roar (Su):  Every 3 rounds, a stone lion gargoyle may unleash a frightening roar.  When a stone lion roars, all creatures within a 300?-foot spread must succeed on a DC X Will save or become panicked for 2d4 rounds. This is a sonic mind-affecting fear effect. Whether or not the save is successful, an affected creature is immune to the same stone lion’s roar for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based. 

The scare spell doesn't seem like the right effect, since it's so targeted.  Thoughts?  Should we change the size of the spread?


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

Hmmm...Medium or Large?

The regular lion is Large, and says it is 5 to 8 feet long.  The stone lion is listed as 7 feet long, so that would seem to put it in the Large range.

If we make them Large, I'm thinking 18 Str may be too low.  A standard lion is Str 21.  If we stick with Medium, I can accept the lower Str, since it would be smaller.

The other ability scores look good.

As for the roar, that can probably work, but since scare only frightens, while fear panicks, I think we should reduce the condition to frightened.

DR 10/magic, since it has more HD than a standard gargoyle, which also has 10/magic.

Should we give it pounce, since it likes to jump down?


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Let's stay Medium.  I guess I kind of have those Chinese lion statues in mind.  If others have strong opinions, though, I can see Large.

Let's reduce the roar to frightened, then, but maybe let's then grant 24-hr immunity to the roar only on a successful save.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 14, 2008)

So what creature type would this be? Monstrous humanoid won't work for these.  

I should probably note that the grandfather plaque (from the same article) is a construct.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2008)

Good point.  I could go with either Construct or Magical Beast.  Based on the other gargoyles, though, I'd lean toward Magical Beast.


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## Shade (Mar 14, 2008)

This is a tough one.  Since gargoyles are no longer created beings, and this one lists no information on how to create one, I could see going magical beast.  Additionally, magical beasts can be creations (such as owlbear).  It also lacks the usual construct immunities, so that's another point in favor of magical beast.

Anyone opposed to magical beast?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 14, 2008)

I am in favor of Magical Beast. I'm also in favor of pounce.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Pounce is also good for me.   To go with that, these should also have an ability like the monk's slow fall to reduce falling damage (ie, ignore the first 20 ft fallen).


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

We could go with the slow fall, or make an ability that extends this...



> Jumping Down: If you intentionally jump from a height, you take less damage than you would if you just fell. The DC to jump down from a height is 15. You do not have to get a running start to jump down, so the DC is not doubled if you do not get a running start.  If you succeed on the check, you take falling damage as if you had dropped 10 fewer feet than you actually did.




...to take falling damage as if it had dropped 20 fewer feet than it actually did.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 17, 2008)

If we can make the jumping down ability of stone lions concise, then I'm all for using the Jump check as opposed to slow fall.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

How's this:

Jump Down (Ex): If a stone lion intentionally jumps from a height and succeeds on DC 15 Jump check, it takes falling damage as if it had dropped 20 fewer feet than it actually did.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2008)

Works for me.

Can we change the roar so that creatures only get immunity on a successful save?  That way it can keep frightening people.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Works for me.
> 
> Can we change the roar so that creatures only get immunity on a successful save?  That way it can keep frightening people.




Done.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 11  (Balance, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot are the skills used by gargoyles and lions)

Which of these racial bonuses shall we retain?

Gargoyle Skills: Gargoyles have a +2 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks. *The Hide bonus increases by +8 when a gargoyle is concealed against a background of stone.

Lion Skills: Lions have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +12.

Feats: 3
Lion has Alertness, Run
Gargoyle has Multiattack, Toughness


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2008)

Looks almost done.

Feats: Multiattack, Ability Focus (roar), ?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

I think it needs ranks in Climb. Maybe even a climb speed. After all, how does it get back up from where it jumped down?

I say Ability Focus (roar), Alertness, Multiattack for the feats.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2008)

I had a similar thought, and had climb 20 ft. as a placeholder.  Does that suffice, or should it be faster?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 18, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I had a similar thought, and had climb 20 ft. as a placeholder.  Does that suffice, or should it be faster?



Slow is fine.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

With the climb speed, maybe we can leave out the ranks for climb.  Maybe Hide 3, Listen 3, Spot 3, Move Silently 2?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2008)

Sounds good to me.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2008)

Updated.



> The lion has an excellent memory for faces and scents and cannot be fooled by disguises.




Give 'em scent?  A racial bonus on Sense Motive checks?

Challenge Rating: 5?

Advancement: 9-11 HD (Medium); 12-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge)?

A stone lion gargoyle is 7 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2008)

Scent sounds good, and so does a +8 bonus on Sense Motive.

CR and advancement look right, though maybe it's a little tough of CR5.

500 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

Stick a fork in it. It's done.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

*Lich's Blood*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Magic
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING:1
ARMOR CLASS: 7
MOVEMENT: 3
HIT DICE: 4+2
THAC0: 16
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drain spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES:  Immune to weapons and all magic
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Special
SIZE: M
MORALE: Fearless (20)
XP VALUE: 1,400

The lich’s blood is an artificial monster created by the necromancers final experiment. Fittingly, the first monster slew its maker before slinking off to find more of his kind, planning to take out its vengeance on all of its creator’s ilk. Thus, this creature is a menace to all wizards. Lich’s blood looks like a pool of animated blood that slowly oozes or drips around, searching for wizards and magical items.

Combat: Lich’s blood attempts to coat a wizard, running down his throat, blocking his nostrils, and suffocating him as it drains his spells. This suffocation takes the form of 1d4 hp damage per round, with no attack roll needed to hit after the first successful attack. Each round the victim is coated, he must save vs. spells or lose 1d4 spells from his memory, starting with the highest-level spells memorized. Even after the victim is devoid of spells, the lich’s blood continues to coat him, draining every last bit of magic from his body. Only after five rounds have passed after all spells have been drained does the lich’s blood leave the victim alone. Because of its liquid state, lich’s blood is immune to all weapon-based attacks. Thanks to its magic-draining nature, all spells cast on it are absorbed harmlessly. The only way to kill a lich’s blood is to use nonmagical acid, fire, or the deprivation of magic. A dispel magic spell cast on lich’s blood causes 1d6 hp damage per level of the caster; an anti-magic shell cast on one destroys the creature immediately.

Habitat/Society: Lich’s blood has no society, working individually.  These monsters heed magic as a human needs water. A lich’s blood can survive indefinitely by coating a permanent
magical item, living off the magical emanations of the object.  However, the best source of such sustenance is a wizard, and a lich’s blood will never miss an opportunity to attack such a being. Upon feasting on a wizard of 6th level or higher, lich’s blood divides much as an amoeba does. The separate entities then go their own ways, each to seek out more sustenance alone. Lich’s blood may exist in any environment, but it prefers the darkness of underground setting. Sunlight is painful but not damaging to the creature.

Ecology: Lich’s blood has no natural predators and no prey other than spellcasters.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #238 (1997).


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2008)

First:  ooze or undead with oozlike qualities?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2008)

Ooze with undead-like qualities. Give it a tomb tainted soul-like ability to heal from negative energy and harmed by positive energy.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

I definitely agree with ooze, but I'm not seeing much of a need for undead qualities (other than name).  In some ways, with the magic immunity and special vulnerabilities, it reminds me more of a construct.


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## RavinRay (Mar 21, 2008)

Ooze. If it does have undead traits, there's a precedent of sorts in the teratomorph in _MM II_ which, while not having the chaotic subtype, attacks rather like a chaos beast.


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## Shade (Mar 21, 2008)

OK, we've got an exceptionally-intelligent ooze.  Fun!

So...Int is 15-16.

Physical ability scores of similarly-sized oozes:

Toxic Ooze: Str 14, Dex 5, Con 23 
Gray Ooze: Str 12, Dex 1, Con 21
Summoning Ooze: Str 14, Dex 10, Con 16
Reason Stealer: Str 14, Dex 1, Con 16
Snowflake Ooze: Str 20, Dex 1, Con 20
Assassin Jelly: Str 15, Dex 15, Con 20

Considering that its AC converts to 17, and oozes tend to lack natural armor, I'm thinking that Dex should be closer to the assassin jelly.

For the others, it looks like Str 12-15 and Con 16-20.  I could see the low end for both of these, since it will have decent mental stats.

Mabye Str 12, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 11, Cha 14?


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2008)

Those look like a good set of stats.  



> Because of its liquid state, lich’s blood is immune to all weapon-based attacks. Thanks to its magic-draining nature, all spells cast on it are absorbed harmlessly. The only way to kill a lich’s blood is to use nonmagical acid, fire, or the deprivation of magic. A dispel magic spell cast on lich’s blood causes 1d6 hp damage per level of the caster; an anti-magic shell cast on one destroys the creature immediately.




Do we want true weapon immunity or DR more like a normal ooze?  As for the magic stuff, I'd say we more or less cut & paste from a golem, using dispel magic and anti-magic field.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 21, 2008)

Give it a high level of DR/-. Maybe acid vulnerability. And I agree that we can steal a golem's magic immunity.


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## freyar (Mar 22, 2008)

How about DR 10/- and Regeneration 5 (fire and acid do normal damage)?

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A lich's blood is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.  Dispel magic cast on a lich's blood does 1d6 hp of damage per caster level, and antimagic field destroys a lich's blood (on a failed Fort save).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> How about DR 10/- and Regeneration 5 (fire and acid do normal damage)?



Sounds good, but sweet Vecna is this thing tough. It's going to have quite the CR.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2008)

Yeah.  We could cut back the DR some, but the original text is pretty nasty.  Seems like about the only way to kill it is with a lot of indirect damage kind of spells and just stumbling on dispel or antimagic.

Let's start working on the wizard coating bit (we'll need to work on the name ).  The way I'm writing this, we need improved grab.

The One that Coats is the Only One You Need (Su): On a successful grapple check against an arcane spellcaster, a lich's blood streams into its victims orifices, coating its nostrils and lungs and making it impossible to breathe (see the DMG for suffocation rules).  Each round, the victim must make a DC X Will save or lose its highest level prepared spell or spell slot.  When the victim has no remaining spells or spell slots, the lich's blood remains for five more rounds, dealing a negative level each round on a failed save (if the victim is still alive).  Once a lich's blood has coated a spellcaster, only its death can remove it.

We could also put in a dependency on magic, unless you think that should be flavor:

Magic Dependency (Su): A lich's blood survives by eating magic.  It can gain constant nutrition by coating a permanent magic item and feeding off the constant magic emanations, but lich's bloods prefer arcane spellcasters to all other forms of food.  A lich's blood that does not feed on magic for X days dies.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

I think there should be ways to remove a coated lich's blood. Casting freedom of movement or dispel evil on the poor unfortunate mage, that sort of thing. On the other hand, I think that attacks made on the lich's blood should also damage who it's coating.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 23, 2008)

Good ideas.  Probably not dispel evil, though, since these are neutral.  What if we say any lethal damage causes it to let go?  And if freedom of movement works, so should a grapple check.  Revising:


Immunity to Magic (Ex): A lich's blood is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below. Dispel magic or greater dispel magic cast on a lich's blood does 1d6 hp of normal damage per caster level, and antimagic field destroys a lich's blood (on a failed Fort save).

The One that Coats is the Only One You Need (Su): On a successful grapple check against an arcane spellcaster, a lich's blood streams into its victims orifices, coating its nostrils and lungs and making it impossible to breathe (see the DMG for suffocation rules). Each round, the victim must make a DC X Will save or lose its highest level prepared spell or spell slot. When the victim has no remaining spells or spell slots, the lich's blood remains for five more rounds, dealing a negative level each round on a failed save (if the victim is still alive). 

Once a lich's blood has coated a spellcaster, the victim may escape by making two successful grapple or Escape Artist checks (as if to escape a pin).  A freedom of movement spell cast on the victim also immediately causes the lich's blood to retract.  In addition, if the lich's blood takes X hit points of normal damage, it will retract.  Any weapon attacks directed at the lich's blood while it is coating a victim deal 1/2 of their damage to the victim instead.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 23, 2008)

I agree with the grappling as if to escape a pin. I don't think there should be a set amount of lethal damage needed that'll make it automatically let go; it's smart enough to be able to make tactical decisions, after all.

And I think these guys _should_ be evil. They're smart enough to, and their tactics are pretty sadistic.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I agree that they seem evil.  Perhaps "usually neutral evil" for the alignment?

As for the other abilities, they look good, although "The One that Coats is the Only One You Need" has to be renamed.    

So how does the thing initiate the grapple check?  Should we give it a (weak) slam attack and improved grab like many oozes?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2008)

Slam + improved grab makes sense. As does NE alignment.

I think "engulf" is a pretty good name for the ability, but it works much differently than the usual engulfing.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Fair enough on alignment.  I also like slam + imp grab.  Not sure of any particular name for this ability.  I agree that engulf works, but I'd prefer something else because there is a standard for engulf.  We can add dispel evil to the ways to end the "engulf" ability; if you also want to get rid of the fixed hp damage to drive it off, that's fine.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Slam damage 1d6 like similarly-sized gray ooze?  Or downgrade it to 1d4 since it's not the main method of killing prey?

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a lich's blood must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can "engulf".

Maybe "coat" for the "engulf" ability?  Or "spell-stealing suffocation"?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2008)

Let's go with 1d4 slam, since it probably shouldn't really even have one. 

Let's call it "spell-stealing suffocation."  That has such a nice ring to it!


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 25, 2008)

Agreed to both.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 25, 2008)

Updated.

Should we give it some ability to actually detect arcane magic so it knows on whom to feed?

Also, I think it needs a climb speed.  10 feet like its land speed?

Skills: 35 (7 max ranks)
Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Move Silently, Spellcraft, Spot, Survival?

Racial bonus on Climb (as result of climb speed) and Disguise checks made to impersonate a puddle of blood?

Feats: 2 
Stealthy, Track?

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

Lich's blood is x feet in diameter and weighs x pounds.

A lich's blood that does not feed on magic for X days dies.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Yes (continual arcane sight that also can see spellcasters?), yes.

Skills: it gets 5 at 7 ranks each, so maybe drop Hide?

Feats look good.  

If we add dispel evil and dealing 10 pts of damage as ways to get this to retract, I could maybe see CR 4.  Probably this has to be higher.

5-8 HD (Medium), 9-12 HD (Large)

5 ft, 20 lb?

How about 6 days?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

Updated.

I didn't max all the skills, but made sure to get synergy bonuses where applicable to leave ranks for all six skills.

Look OK?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2008)

Just a typo of "lich's blodo" in the skill bonus line.   Otherwise, I guess it's done.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 26, 2008)

I personally dislike the "if it takes ten points of damage, it retracts" mechanic. If it were mindless, sure. But this thing is smarter than people; it should retract based more on the tactical decision to.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I personally dislike the "if it takes ten points of damage, it retracts" mechanic. If it were mindless, sure. But this thing is smarter than people; it should retract based more on the tactical decision to.




Yeah, that makes sense.  Let's ditch it.

And I sent "Blodo" back to the shire.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Here's one of my all-time favorites.    

*VILTCH*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-20
ARMOR CLASS: -4
MOVE: 21"
HIT DICE: 5 + 2
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 claws and 1 bite
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5/2-5/2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Minor poison; spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells; never surprised; various immunities & resistances
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 40%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic neutral or chaotic evil
SIZE: M (5' tall,)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VI/575 + 6/hp

Vitches are hateful creatures from the plane of Pandemonium, inclined to malign destruction and disorder. They are skilled vandals, ripping open wineskins, spoiling food, biting through ropes and straps, tormenting domestic animals, smashing wood, and generally creating havoc wherever they go. The more beautiful or orderly an object or an arrangement is, the greater their determination to destroy it. Though they can inflict fatal wounds, viltches prefer to cause mere scratches and nicks, concentrating on various random acts of hooliganism.  They seek out weak prey and avoid direct confrontation with powerful creatures.

The following powers are available to a viltch, usable one at a time, once per round: detect traps, dimension door, shatter (three times per day), teleport (once per day), trip (three times per day), warp wood (three times per day), and gate (30% chance of 1-20 more viltches from Pandemonium). A viltch is immune to electrical damage, psionic attacks and powers, and poisons or gases of any sort. It takes half damage from cold or fire. Viltches have both infravision and ultravision out to 90'.

Viltches are never surprised and always gain +2 on initiative rolls because of their speed. They have the abilities of 12th-level thieves in picking pockets, opening locks, removing traps, and climbing walls. A viltch can dodge non-magical missiles if it saves vs. petrification. The venomous bite of a viltch causes pain in a live victim (-3 "to hit" and no chance of casting spells or attacking psionically) for 1-6 turns. 

A viltch resembles a mandrill with matted and disheveled fur, and is a dirty gray color.  Its muzzle is blue-gray. It has a mane of darker color, and its eyes burn a baleful yellow. A viltch has only three legs: a single leg in back, and two in front. It seems not to be handicapped by this arrangement. 

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #94 (1985).


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

> The following powers are available to a viltch, usable one at a time, once per round: detect traps, dimension door, shatter (three times per day), teleport (once per day), trip (three times per day), warp wood (three times per day), and gate (30% chance of 1-20 more viltches from Pandemonium). A viltch is immune to electrical damage, psionic attacks and powers, and poisons or gases of any sort. It takes half damage from cold or fire. Viltches have both infravision and ultravision out to 90'.




Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--dimension door, find traps; 3/day--shatter, warp wood; 1/day--greater teleport.

The spell "trip" no longer exists.  We could either make this a unique SLA or give it telekinesis and limit it to tripping only.

Summon Viltch (Sp): Once per day a viltch can attempt to summon 1d20 viltches with a 30% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a xth-level spell.

We should probably reduce that number, as that could result in a TPK.

Immunity to electricity, poison, and psionics?

Resistance to cold X and fire X?

Darkvision 90' and low-light vision?


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 1, 2008)

The scythetail, which is in the CC, also had trip.  Here's how it was handled:

Trip (Sp): When a scythetail touches a long object (such as a rope, vine, or tree branch), it imbues that object with the ability to trip opponents for that day.  At will, the scythetail may cause this object to rise slightly off the ground to trip any creatures passing by once per round, up to three times per day.  Any creatures moving past this object will be subject (to) a normal trip attack.  Running creatures are also subject to a trip attack, and suffer 1d6 points of damage in addition to being stunned for 1d4 rounds.  Creatures of Huge size or larger are immune to this attack.

By the way, would this be an outsider or extraplanar magical beast (my vote would be for outsider)?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Thanks for the find.

I'm with you on outsider for these things.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 1, 2008)

These guys are cool! Always thought there needed to be more creatures from Pandemonium. 

Definitely an outsider. Animate rope could also be used as a model for magical tripping.

Reduce the "immune to psionics" to "immune to mind-influencing effects"; the SR will take care of the rest, due to psi/magic transparencies. Make the resistances 10, as that's standard for outsiders these days. 

The poison, as it gives a penalty to attack rolls and makes it impossible to cast spells, is an odd one. We could do something like:

Poison (Ex): The poison of a viltch causes extreme pain in living targets. Fortitude DC X negates, initial damage sickened 1 minute, secondary damage nauseated 1 minute. Any creature that fails the initial save must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell within a minute of the bite. The save DC is Constitution based.

The remark about high initiative suggests that they have Imp. Init as one of their feats. The dodging missiles can be interpreted as Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat or a miss-chance to ranged attacks only (like entropic shield).

...thoughts?

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> These guys are cool! Always thought there needed to be more creatures from Pandemonium.




Hell yeah!  My biggest disappointment was that I never got an article on an exemplar race from Pandemonium into Dragon.  It got close a couple times.   :\ 



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Definitely an outsider. Animate rope could also be used as a model for magical tripping.




I'll check that out as well.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Reduce the "immune to psionics" to "immune to mind-influencing effects"; the SR will take care of the rest, due to psi/magic transparencies. Make the resistances 10, as that's standard for outsiders these days.




Good idea.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The poison, as it gives a penalty to attack rolls and makes it impossible to cast spells, is an odd one. We could do something like:
> 
> Poison (Ex): The poison of a viltch causes extreme pain in living targets. Fortitude DC X negates, initial damage sickened 1 minute, secondary damage nauseated 1 minute. Any creature that fails the initial save must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell within a minute of the bite. The save DC is Constitution based.




Looks good. We might also borrow from symbol of pain or the pain spell from Complete Arcane.

I hope Pathfinder broadens the condition summary to include things like pained, hypnotized, withered, etc. that appear in multiple places.



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The remark about high initiative suggests that they have Imp. Init as one of their feats. The dodging missiles can be interpreted as Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat or a miss-chance to ranged attacks only (like entropic shield).




Agreed on all that.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Oooh, nice wild slaad alternative.  I'm agreed on everything said so far.  Let's reduce the summoning number to maybe 1d6?  It's still a lot but maybe we can bump the CR a little.  

Regarding "thief skills," do you want to do large racial bonuses?  It won't have nearly enough ranks otherwise.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Yeah, definitely good racial bonuses to "thief skills".

Let's figure out ability scores.

Int is Average (8-10).

Con is positive due to the "+2" on the HD line.

Dex is at least 14-15, but I think it should be higher due to the crazy-good AC for its HD and its focus on theft.

Str should yield at least a +1 damage bonus, but I also think it should be higher.

Cha should be decent due to SLAs.  Wis could be average.

Looking at comparable outsiders:

Bar-lgura:  Str 22, Dex 19, Con 19, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Skurchur:  Str 15, Dex 20, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 19, Cha 18
Spinagon:  Str 10, Dex 25, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 13, Cha 13
Black Abishai:  Str 14, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 13
Barbazu:  Str 15, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 10
Canoloth:  Str 19, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 5, Wis 17, Cha 12
Red Slaad: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 8

And since they are apelike:
Ape:  Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

So, how about.... Str 19, Dex 21, Con 17, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 13?

I figure they'd be slightly more agile than a bar-lgura, but a bit less in the brute strength dept.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Sounds about right.  I'd even be willing to up the Dex a little.  After all, it does have AC 24, so we can go up to Dex 37 if we really want.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I currently have them with +8 natural armor like the bar-lgura, which leaves +6 for Dexterity, so I gave them Dex 23.  We can adjust these numbers if we find we need higher Dex as we work out the skills and abilities.

We need to decide which method to use to replace the trip SLA.  Suggested above were the following options:


The enwrap function of the animate rope spell
Telekinesis as an SLA (limited to tripping)
Trip (Sp): When a scythetail touches a long object (such as a rope, vine, or tree branch), it imbues that object with the ability to trip opponents for that day. At will, the scythetail may cause this object to rise slightly off the ground to trip any creatures passing by once per round, up to three times per day. Any creatures moving past this object will be subject (to) a normal trip attack. Running creatures are also subject to a trip attack, and suffer 1d6 points of damage in addition to being stunned for 1d4 rounds. Creatures of Huge size or larger are immune to this attack.

We could also use some combination of the above.   Thoughts?

Also, Pandemonium petitioners have immunity to sonic in addition to electricity, and resistance to acid, which the viltch lacks.  Shall we grant the viltch the same?

I'd also recommend adding this so they can get around on their home plane...

Wind Tolerance (Su): Viltches are unaffected by high winds, and are never checked, knocked down, or blown away by wind conditions. Viltches suffer no penalties to Listen checks made in areas of high winds, nor are their spells and effects that rely on sonic energy limited to a range of 10 feet.


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

I'm for the telekinesis option.  I don't get the picture of these as using objects to do the tripping; it's more of a magical force.

Immunities and resistance are good.  Wind tolerance makes sense.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 3, 2008)

Agreed on wind tolerance. I think we can leave off the acid resistance, because they have so many other immunities and resistances, but sonic immunity makes thematic sense.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

oops, double post!


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Agreed on wind tolerance. I think we can leave off the acid resistance, because they have so many other immunities and resistances, but sonic immunity makes thematic sense.
> 
> Demiurge out.



 That's true.  Fine either way with me on the acid.  

Here's a fun special ability:



> A viltch can dodge non-magical missiles if it saves vs. petrification.




Missile Dodging (Su): A viltch targeted by a magic missile may make a Reflex save (at the usual DC for the caster) to dodge the magic missle (negating the missile's damage).


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Missile Dodging (Su): A viltch targeted by a magic missile may make a Reflex save (at the usual DC for the caster) to dodge the magic missle (negating the missile's damage).




I'm OK with adding that, but note that the original text was for "non-magical" missles.    

So at the very least, we'll need to expand out the ability to cover mundane ranged weapons.


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

Oh, geez, I noticed that before and just missed it this tmie through.  Let's do Deflect Arrows as a bonus feat, like demiurge suggested above.  No reason to give these things a defense against the magic missile!


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

Here's a stab at modifying that particular portion of the telekinesis spell into a unique SLA:

Telekinetic Trip (Sp):  Three times per day, a viltch can use telekinesis to perform a trip attempt. Resolve this attempt as normal, except that it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, the viltch uses its Charisma modifier in place of its Strength modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. (This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.)

Since the viltch is "never surprised", shall we give it uncanny dodge?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 4, 2008)

Improved uncanny dodge, even.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Updated.

Damage reduction 5/lawful?

Skills: 7 at 8 ranks
Climb, Disable Device, Listen, Open Locks, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble?

Feats: Deflect Arrows (B), Improved Initiative (B), 2 more
Multiattack?  Power Attack?

Organization: Solitary, pair, or x (3-20)
x = gang?

Challenge Rating: 5?

Advancement: 6-10 HD (Medium); 11-15 HD (Large)?

A viltch stands 5 feet tall and weighs 150 pounds?

A viltch can be summoned using a summon monster VI spell?

Viltches speak Abyssal and Slaadi?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

That all sounds good.  Summon viltch is probably equivalent to a 3rd or 4th level spell (better than the babau's summon demon, which is 3rd, but probably worse than a glabrezu's which is 4th).


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

A babau only gets 1 other babau, and the viltch gets 1d6 of its kind, so I'd err on the side of caution and go with 4th.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Also, caster level 5th for SLAs?

Telekinetic Trip (Sp): Three times per day, a viltch can use telekinesis to perform a trip attempt. Resolve this attempt as normal, except that it doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, the viltch uses its Charisma modifier in place of its Strength modifier, and a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target. No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally. *(This version of the spell can last 1 round per caster level, but it ends if you cease concentration.)*

Do we want to allow the bolded bit, or just make it a one-shot effect?

Skills:  A viltch has a +x racial bonus on Climb, Disable Device, Open Locks, and Sleight of Hand checks.

+8?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

CL 5 and +8 racial bonus sounds about right.  I'm undecided on trip.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 5, 2008)

Let's have it be an instantaneous effect.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Sounds fine.  Is it done?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

I think so.  I'm really happy with the way these guys turned out.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

*Sea Giant*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon [Very rare]
NO APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6 or better
MOVE: 12"//30" [//30"]
HIT DICE: 12 [16-19]
% IN LAIR: 25% [10%]
TREASURE TYPE: E [E, Qxl00]
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 fist or weapon [or tail smash]
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5-30 [8-48] or by weapon type (see below) [or see below]
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Rending, hurling rocks for 2-20 hp damage [or spell use; psionics possible]
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistance to cold, pressure, and poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very [Exceptional]
ALIGNMENT Neutral good [Neutral]
SIZE: L (15' tall) [L (25' long or more)]
PSIONIC ABILITY Nil [See below]
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil [See below]
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VIII/4800 + 16/hp
[X/10,250 + 20/hp to 19,100 + 30/hp]

Note: Figures in [brackets] are for Type II sea giant.

The sea giant is an evolutionary offshoot of giantkind which returned to the sea and are adapted to a marine environment. The lesser form (Type I) is amphibious and spends part of its time on land, while the other form (Type II) spends its entire life in or upon the ocean.

The Type I sea giant can be found living in large coastal grottoes, on small islands or in small (for a giant) towers near deserted strands. (Such a tower will have a waterfilled tunnel or bore leading directly to the sea.) Of all the species of giantkind, this one is the most friendly toward humans and demi-humans. Amphibious sea giants are known to have rescued small fishing skiffs caught in storms and people in danger of drowning. Fishermen sometimes report seeing one of these giants swimming on or just below the surface of the sea. 

Type I sea giants have skin color ranging from light green for those in tropical waters to light blue for those inhabiting polar regions. This giant has webbing between its fingers and toes, is as strong as a fire giant (22 strength) but taller and slimmer, and has little apparent body hair except for the top of its head. An amphibious sea giant is capable of deep dives (as far as 500') and long submersions (up to an hour) before needing to resurface for air.

The Type II sea giant has wholly adapted to life in the sea. A solitary being, the marine sea giant lives most of his life (possibly with a mate) in the depths of the ocean and rarely ventures near the surface. This giant possesses gills, but has also retained a pair of vestigial lungs which enable him to function on the ocean surface for up to an hour at a time.  

The skin color of a marine sea giant varies from sea green to icy blue, with a mane of white hair crowning the head. The hands are webbed much like a duck's feet, but are able to grasp and hold objects. The lower half of the body is shaped like the tail of a whale, ending in a set of horizontal flukes.  The giant can use this tail to strike at foes, doing damage of 2-12, 4-16, 4-24, or 5-30 hp depending on the giant's hit dice.

The marine sea giant has strength equivalent to a storm giant (24 strength) and is usually encountered when carrying a huge trident. For this reason, some individuals have mistaken the giant for Poseidon (or another similarly powerful sea-dwelling deity) and offered it treasure. Depending on his precise alignment (50% are inclined toward evil, 50% toward good), this giant will either accept such offerings and take advantage of the situation, or decline the treasure and inform the individuals of their mistake.

Sages speculate that the marine sea giant lives a nomadic existence, usually roaming the depths but sometimes dwelling temporarily in a great undersea cavern or in a castle constructed of stone, large sea shells, and the bones of sea monsters. If adventurers come upon such a castle, the jewel-treasure they find within it will be mostly composed of large pearls. 

Sailors believe that the sighting of a marine sea giant foretells a coming storm; if the giant is looking toward the ship when seen, then the storm will take a life, but if he is facing away from the ship then the storm will be weathered without loss. This belief may have its  foundation in the fact that the Type II sea giant has some innate spell-like abilities. The giant can perform the following feats, each twice per day and one per round: control  weather, predict weather, control winds, weather summoning, animal summoning III (sea creatures only), and polymorph others (into some form of sea creature).

There is a 5% chance that any Type II sea giant will be psionic, with 140-190 ability points and randomly determined attack and defense modes. A psionic sea giant will have the following disciplines, all performed at the 12th level of mastery: animal telepathy, body weaponry, clairaudience, clairvoyance, and telepathy.  

All sea giants have a natural armor class of 6 which they can augment. Amphibious sea giants may wear specially made armor of leather (improving AC by one or two places) and carry a shield; marine sea giants are often attired in armor made of giant shells or the hides of sea beasts (improving AC by two to five places) and often bear shields made from the shell of a dragon turtle or an archelon. Although they can do great damage with their fists, sea giants often carry weapons; either type may be found carrying trident and net, spear, or a form of heavy crossbow which is usable underwater -- all sized appropriately for use by giants, of course, and doing twice (for Type I) or three times (for Type II) the damage of a normal-sized weapon of the same sort.

If a sea giant attacks barehanded against a size L opponent and the 'to hit' roll is a natural 18 or higher, the giant has succeeded in grabbing his foe with both hands, and can do additional rending damage of 3-18 hp damage (for Type I) or 4-24 hp damage (for Type II) in the same round.

As a byproduct of their ability to withstand the cold and pressure of the ocean depths, sea giants take only one-half normal damage from cold-based attacks and the various Bigby's hand spells (save, when applicable, for one-quarter damage). They are unaffected by injected poisons of any sort, since the toxin is simply absorbed by the layer of insulating fat which protects their bodies. Both types of sea giant possess infravision (12" range) and a form of underwater sonar which they use for navigation and identification in the lightless depths, to a range of 600'.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

*Sea Giant*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon [Very rare]
NO APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 6 or better
MOVE: 12"//30" [//30"]
HIT DICE: 12 [16-19]
% IN LAIR: 25% [10%]
TREASURE TYPE: E [E, Qxl00]
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 fist or weapon [or tail smash]
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5-30 [8-48] or by weapon type (see below) [or see below]
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Rending, hurling rocks for 2-20 hp damage [or spell use; psionics possible]
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistance to cold, pressure, and poison
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Very [Exceptional]
ALIGNMENT Neutral good [Neutral]
SIZE: L (15' tall) [L (25' long or more)]
PSIONIC ABILITY Nil [See below]
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil [See below]
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: VIII/4800 + 16/hp
[X/10,250 + 20/hp to 19,100 + 30/hp]

Note: Figures in [brackets] are for Type II sea giant.

The sea giant is an evolutionary offshoot of giantkind which returned to the sea and are adapted to a marine environment. The lesser form (Type I) is amphibious and spends part of its time on land, while the other form (Type II) spends its entire life in or upon the ocean.

The Type I sea giant can be found living in large coastal grottoes, on small islands or in small (for a giant) towers near deserted strands. (Such a tower will have a waterfilled tunnel or bore leading directly to the sea.) Of all the species of giantkind, this one is the most friendly toward humans and demi-humans. Amphibious sea giants are known to have rescued small fishing skiffs caught in storms and people in danger of drowning. Fishermen sometimes report seeing one of these giants swimming on or just below the surface of the sea. 

Type I sea giants have skin color ranging from light green for those in tropical waters to light blue for those inhabiting polar regions. This giant has webbing between its fingers and toes, is as strong as a fire giant (22 strength) but taller and slimmer, and has little apparent body hair except for the top of its head. An amphibious sea giant is capable of deep dives (as far as 500') and long submersions (up to an hour) before needing to resurface for air.

The Type II sea giant has wholly adapted to life in the sea. A solitary being, the marine sea giant lives most of his life (possibly with a mate) in the depths of the ocean and rarely ventures near the surface. This giant possesses gills, but has also retained a pair of vestigial lungs which enable him to function on the ocean surface for up to an hour at a time.  

The skin color of a marine sea giant varies from sea green to icy blue, with a mane of white hair crowning the head. The hands are webbed much like a duck's feet, but are able to grasp and hold objects. The lower half of the body is shaped like the tail of a whale, ending in a set of horizontal flukes.  The giant can use this tail to strike at foes, doing damage of 2-12, 4-16, 4-24, or 5-30 hp depending on the giant's hit dice.

The marine sea giant has strength equivalent to a storm giant (24 strength) and is usually encountered when carrying a huge trident. For this reason, some individuals have mistaken the giant for Poseidon (or another similarly powerful sea-dwelling deity) and offered it treasure. Depending on his precise alignment (50% are inclined toward evil, 50% toward good), this giant will either accept such offerings and take advantage of the situation, or decline the treasure and inform the individuals of their mistake.

Sages speculate that the marine sea giant lives a nomadic existence, usually roaming the depths but sometimes dwelling temporarily in a great undersea cavern or in a castle constructed of stone, large sea shells, and the bones of sea monsters. If adventurers come upon such a castle, the jewel-treasure they find within it will be mostly composed of large pearls. 

Sailors believe that the sighting of a marine sea giant foretells a coming storm; if the giant is looking toward the ship when seen, then the storm will take a life, but if he is facing away from the ship then the storm will be weathered without loss. This belief may have its  foundation in the fact that the Type II sea giant has some innate spell-like abilities. The giant can perform the following feats, each twice per day and one per round: control  weather, predict weather, control winds, weather summoning, animal summoning III (sea creatures only), and polymorph others (into some form of sea creature).

There is a 5% chance that any Type II sea giant will be psionic, with 140-190 ability points and randomly determined attack and defense modes. A psionic sea giant will have the following disciplines, all performed at the 12th level of mastery: animal telepathy, body weaponry, clairaudience, clairvoyance, and telepathy.  

All sea giants have a natural armor class of 6 which they can augment. Amphibious sea giants may wear specially made armor of leather (improving AC by one or two places) and carry a shield; marine sea giants are often attired in armor made of giant shells or the hides of sea beasts (improving AC by two to five places) and often bear shields made from the shell of a dragon turtle or an archelon. Although they can do great damage with their fists, sea giants often carry weapons; either type may be found carrying trident and net, spear, or a form of heavy crossbow which is usable underwater -- all sized appropriately for use by giants, of course, and doing twice (for Type I) or three times (for Type II) the damage of a normal-sized weapon of the same sort.

If a sea giant attacks barehanded against a size L opponent and the 'to hit' roll is a natural 18 or higher, the giant has succeeded in grabbing his foe with both hands, and can do additional rending damage of 3-18 hp damage (for Type I) or 4-24 hp damage (for Type II) in the same round.

As a byproduct of their ability to withstand the cold and pressure of the ocean depths, sea giants take only one-half normal damage from cold-based attacks and the various Bigby's hand spells (save, when applicable, for one-quarter damage). They are unaffected by injected poisons of any sort, since the toxin is simply absorbed by the layer of insulating fat which protects their bodies. Both types of sea giant possess infravision (12" range) and a form of underwater sonar which they use for navigation and identification in the lightless depths, to a range of 600'.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #101 (1985).


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## RavinRay (Apr 26, 2008)

From the name alone I guessed it might have similarities to the ocean giant in _Monster Manual II_, and the Type II giant does physically resemble it.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Indeed.  I think they're different enough to warrant conversion, but we can definitely use the ocean giant for inspiration.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Huh, do we want to do these as a single conversion (just do the type II with a note that there is a slightly weaker amphibious version) or two separate conversions?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

I'd say two separate conversions, like the lesser and greater cyclops.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Sounds good to me!  Which first?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Let's start with lesser (Type I).

It's as strong as a fire giant, but taller and slimmer.  Int is Very (11-12).

Fire giant scores:  Str 31, Dex 9, Con 21, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 11

Maybe Str 31, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 12, Wis 15, Cha 13?



> All sea giants have a natural armor class of 6 which they can augment.




So +6 natural armor?  A fire giant is +8 natural.


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2008)

Those abilities look good, and so does +6 natural armor.

Giant (aquatic) with amphibious SQ?  Or 


> An amphibious sea giant is capable of deep dives (as far as 500') and long submersions (up to an hour) before needing to resurface for air.



just Giant with a good water breathing ability?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

Based on that text, I'd say this should suffice:

Hold Breath (Ex): A zeuglodon can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 8 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Nah, that would only be like 8 minutes.  Got anything better?


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## RavinRay (Apr 29, 2008)

I got a different figure than that: 19 (Con) * 8 rounds/Con * 6 sec/round / 60 sec/min = 15.2 minutes. The Con score * 8 is the highest multiplier in _Stormwrack_ isn't it?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

Oops!  I was thinking it was minutes!

I believe I've seen creatures go as high as 10, but I can't find an example right now.  But it would take a very large multiplier to get to an hour.

How about reverse-engineering this?

Water Dependent (Ex): Sahuagin can survive out of the water for 1 hour per 2 points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

RavinRay said:
			
		

> I got a different figure than that: 19 (Con) * 8 rounds/Con * 6 sec/round / 60 sec/min = 15.2 minutes. The Con score * 8 is the highest multiplier in _Stormwrack_ isn't it?



 Oh, yeah, you're right, 15-16 minutes.  I multiplied by Con=10 for some reason.  But still I think Shade's idea works best.

Air Dependent (Ex): A type I sea giant can survive underwater for 10 minutes per two points of Constitution (after that, refer to the drowning rules on page 304 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide).

That would give them 90 minutes, which is a little longer but probably not a big deal.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

That'll work.  And I propose that we call them "lesser" and "greater" rather than "type I" and "type II" from here on out.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

That sounds much better to me.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> All sea giants have a natural armor class of 6 which they can augment. Amphibious sea giants may wear specially made armor of leather (improving AC by one or two places) and carry a shield; marine sea giants are often attired in armor made of giant shells or the hides of sea beasts (improving AC by two to five places) and often bear shields made from the shell of a dragon turtle or an archelon. Although they can do great damage with their fists, sea giants often carry weapons; either type may be found carrying trident and net, spear, or a form of heavy crossbow which is usable underwater -- all sized appropriately for use by giants, of course, and doing twice (for Type I) or three times (for Type II) the damage of a normal-sized weapon of the same sort.




Besides a slam attack, what weapons shall we stick on the attack lines?  If we go with a two-handed weapon or two weapons, no shield.



> If a sea giant attacks barehanded against a size L opponent and the 'to hit' roll is a natural 18 or higher, the giant has succeeded in grabbing his foe with both hands, and can do additional rending damage of 3-18 hp damage (for Type I) or 4-24 hp damage (for Type II) in the same round.




Interesting.  Is their precedent for rend with slams?



> As a byproduct of their ability to withstand the cold and pressure of the ocean depths, sea giants take only one-half normal damage from cold-based attacks and the various Bigby's hand spells (save, when applicable, for one-quarter damage). They are unaffected by injected poisons of any sort, since the toxin is simply absorbed by the layer of insulating fat which protects their bodies. Both types of sea giant possess infravision (12" range) and a form of underwater sonar which they use for navigation and identification in the lightless depths, to a range of 600'.




Some interesting stuff here.   Something akin to evasion for cold and force effects?   Simplify to immunity to poison or limit it to injected and contact poisons?   Blindsight/blindsense 600 ft.?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Besides a slam attack, what weapons shall we stick on the attack lines?  If we go with a two-handed weapon or two weapons, no shield.



I like trident for melee with a shield and net or special crossbow for ranged.  Too complicated?



> Interesting.  Is their precedent for rend with slams?



I don't know, but I think we should do it.  Of course, the bit about rolling an 18 could just mean that they get Improved Crit (slam) as a bonus feat and some sort of augment critical ability.



> Some interesting stuff here.   Something akin to evasion for cold and force effects?   Simplify to immunity to poison or limit it to injected and contact poisons?   Blindsight/blindsense 600 ft.?




I think the cold/force bit should be more like resistance (at a suitably high value).  I would make it immunity to injected & contact poisons only.  I like blindsight 600 ft.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2008)

Paizo just set a precedent for slams with rend, actually. Their "ogre degenerate", from Classic Monsters Revisited, has a "pummel" SA--acts as rend, with the delightful side effect of Fort save or dazed for a round.

By injected, do you mean injury poisons? I say simplify things; make them immune to poisons of all sorts.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Paizo just set a precedent for slams with rend, actually. Their "ogre degenerate", from Classic Monsters Revisited, has a "pummel" SA--acts as rend, with the delightful side effect of Fort save or dazed for a round.




Cool!



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> By injected, do you mean injury poisons? I say simplify things; make them immune to poisons of all sorts.




Poison gaffe #2.    Yep, I meant injury.

I'm fine with simplifying to all poisons, though.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Ok, then, rend with slams, then. 

I'm fine with granting immunity to all poisons, since you both seem to be for it.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Updated.

Slam damage was originally 5d6.  That's quite high for a Large creature (normally 1d6). In fact, most giants do less than average slam damage for their size (1d4 for fire, frost, and stone at Large).  So...stick with 1d4 like the other giants, go with 1d6 since they seem to rely a little more on their slams, or something else?

Resistance to cold 20 and force 20?

Also, a whale's blindsight is limited to 120 ft.  I think the current 600 ft. for these guys is a bit much.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Let's do 1d6 on slams plus the rend, then.

Resistance 20 is good.

I guess we should stick with 120 ft, then.


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Shall we modify this for our sea giant?

Kna Crossbow: A kna uses a specially designed crossbow that is not subject to the normal -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls for every five feet of distance underwater. Additionally, its range increment is unaffected in aquatic environs. Kna crossbows are always masterwork quality and are often sumptuously decorated.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Yes.  Do you want to say they buy the crossbows from Knas?   Nah...


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

> SPECIAL ATTACKS: hurling rocks for 2-20 hp damage




2d6+10 like the fire giant?

Rock Throwing (Ex): The range increment is 120 feet for a sea giant’s thrown rocks.  (same as frost and fire)?

Rock Catching (Ex): A giant of at least Large size can catch Small, Medium, or Large rocks (or projectiles of similar shape).

Once per round, a giant that would normally be hit by a rock can make a Reflex save to catch it as a free action. The DC is 15 for a Small rock, 20 for a Medium one, and 25 for a Large one. (If the projectile provides a magical bonus on attack rolls, the DC increases by that amount.) The giant must be ready for and aware of the attack in order to make a rock catching attempt.



> SPECIAL DEFENSES: Resistance to cold, pressure, and poison






			
				Water Dangers said:
			
		

> Very deep water is not only generally pitch black, posing a navigational hazard, but worse, it deals water pressure damage of 1d6 points per minute for every 100 feet the character is below the surface. A successful Fortitude save (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) means the diver takes no damage in that minute. Very cold water deals 1d6 points of nonlethal damage from hypothermia per minute of exposure.




How's this?

Water Pressure Tolerance (Ex):  Sea giants take no damage from water pressure at depths of less than 1 mile.


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

Yes to all the above, including 2d6+10 thrown rock damage.  Add a reference to Water dangers to Water Pressure Tolerance.

I'm not seeing anything else necessary for the lesser sea giants.  Anyone else see anything?


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 45 (+8 Swim)
Many giants have Climb, Craft (any one), Intimidate,  Jump, and Spot

Feats: 5
Many giants have Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack

Challenge Rating: 9?  (They have less HD than a frost giant, but the resistances and blindsight probably balance out.)

Treasure: Standard like most giants?

Level Adjustment: +6? (fire and frost are +4, and these guys have two high resistances, a swim speed, and great blindsight range)


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## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2008)

Feats: Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack

CR 9 seems about right to me.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

I like the feats demiurge suggests, and CR 9 sounds ok to me, too.  Standard treasure and LA +6 also sound ok.

Skills: 9 ranks each of Climb, Craft (basketweaving ), Intimidate, Jump, and Spot
More seriously, we could go with craft (weaponsmithing) for making those fancy crossbows.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=219404&page=4&pp=30Updated.

Let's stick with the Craft (any one) designation like most giants, but I'll put in the flavor text that they often take weaponsmithing or armorsmithing for making their special gear.  

Also, how about swapping Climb ranks for Swim?

I don't think we ever resolved the rake issue.  Are we going with the Paizo pummel ability, or modifying standard rake?

Do we want to add a "Lesser Sea Giant Characters" section like most giants?

How about details on their giant's bags?

Do we want to link them to ocean giants in flavor text?


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Oh, absolutely right about Swim vs Climb.

I'm ok with just using Rend with the slam attacks.  We can go with Pummel (add stunned on a failed Fort save) if anyone wants.

Yes on characters.

Lesser sea giants carry rocks, large sea shells, coins, and sometimes magic items. ?

Any thematic relations between these and ocean giants (besides the obvious salt water bit)?


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'm ok with just using Rend with the slam attacks.  We can go with Pummel (add stunned on a failed Fort save) if anyone wants.




Anyone else have a preference?



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Any thematic relations between these and ocean giants (besides the obvious salt water bit)?




Not really.  Both are relatively peaceful.


Lesser Sea Giant Characters
A lesser sea giant cleric has access to two of the following domains: x.  (Most giants have four domains to choose from).


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

I'd suggest Water, Weather, and maybe Repose and Travel Domains.

Doesn't matter much to me about the Ocean Giants.


----------



## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

I say Good, Travel, Water, Weather for the domains. 

And I'd rather not mention the ocean giants.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Those domains sound pretty good to me.  About ready to move to the greater sea giants?


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## Shade (May 6, 2008)

One last thing:

Lesser sea giants can live to be x years old.

350 years like a fire giant?


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## freyar (May 6, 2008)

Umm, let's go with 300 just to be a little different.  Greater sea giants can live longer, like 400 years, if we have no other consideration for that.


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## Shade (May 7, 2008)

Moving on to the greater sea giant...

They have no land speed.

Shall we start with the low end of the Hit Dice range presented (16)?

Int is 15-16.

Alignment is Neutral.

Size is "25' long or more", so Huge?  (A storm giant is 21' tall)



> The Type II sea giant has wholly adapted to life in the sea. A solitary being, the marine sea giant lives most of his life (possibly with a mate) in the depths of the ocean and rarely ventures near the surface. This giant possesses gills, but has also retained a pair of vestigial lungs which enable him to function on the ocean surface for up to an hour at a time.




It looks like we'll have a reverse form of the lesser's Air Dependent ability.



> The skin color of a marine sea giant varies from sea green to icy blue, with a mane of white hair crowning the head. The hands are webbed much like a duck's feet, but are able to grasp and hold objects. The lower half of the body is shaped like the tail of a whale, ending in a set of horizontal flukes.  The giant can use this tail to strike at foes, doing damage of 2-12, 4-16, 4-24, or 5-30 hp depending on the giant's hit dice.




We should probably stick with standard damage based on size.



> The marine sea giant has strength equivalent to a storm giant (24 strength) and is usually encountered when carrying a huge trident. For this reason, some individuals have mistaken the giant for Poseidon (or another similarly powerful sea-dwelling deity) and offered it treasure. Depending on his precise alignment (50% are inclined toward evil, 50% toward good), this giant will either accept such offerings and take advantage of the situation, or decline the treasure and inform the individuals of their mistake.




A storm giant is Str 39 in 3.5.



> Sages speculate that the marine sea giant lives a nomadic existence, usually roaming the depths but sometimes dwelling temporarily in a great undersea cavern or in a castle constructed of stone, large sea shells, and the bones of sea monsters. If adventurers come upon such a castle, the jewel-treasure they find within it will be mostly composed of large pearls.




Treasure: Half coins; triple goods (gems); half items?



> Sailors believe that the sighting of a marine sea giant foretells a coming storm; if the giant is looking toward the ship when seen, then the storm will take a life, but if he is facing away from the ship then the storm will be weathered without loss. This belief may have its  foundation in the fact that the Type II sea giant has some innate spell-like abilities. The giant can perform the following feats, each twice per day and one per round: control  weather, predict weather, control winds, weather summoning, animal summoning III (sea creatures only), and polymorph others (into some form of sea creature).




Most of those convert.  We can model predict weather off weather eye in Spell Compendium.

For animal summoning III, want to replace it with a more specific summon ability?



> There is a 5% chance that any Type II sea giant will be psionic, with 140-190 ability points and randomly determined attack and defense modes. A psionic sea giant will have the following disciplines, all performed at the 12th level of mastery: animal telepathy, body weaponry, clairaudience, clairvoyance, and telepathy.




Psionic variant "sidebar"?



> All sea giants have a natural armor class of 6 which they can augment. Amphibious sea giants may wear specially made armor of leather (improving AC by one or two places) and carry a shield; marine sea giants are often attired in armor made of giant shells or the hides of sea beasts (improving AC by two to five places) and often bear shields made from the shell of a dragon turtle or an archelon. Although they can do great damage with their fists, sea giants often carry weapons; either type may be found carrying trident and net, spear, or a form of heavy crossbow which is usable underwater -- all sized appropriately for use by giants, of course, and doing twice (for Type I) or three times (for Type II) the damage of a normal-sized weapon of the same sort.




Same as lesser sea giant, except for the armor and shield?


----------



## freyar (May 8, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Shall we start with the low end of the Hit Dice range presented (16)?



Yes.


> Size is "25' long or more", so Huge?  (A storm giant is 21' tall)



Yup.


> It looks like we'll have a reverse form of the lesser's Air Dependent ability.
> ...
> We should probably stick with standard damage based on size.



Agreed to both.


> Treasure: Half coins; triple goods (gems); half items?



Sounds good.


> For animal summoning III, want to replace it with a more specific summon ability?



Probably summon monster III will be enough.  Pretty obviously it will just be aquatic critters.


> Psionic variant "sidebar"?



Yes.


> Same as lesser sea giant, except for the armor and shield?



Sounds right.  

Abilities: Str 39, Dex 11, Con 24, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 13?
Sort of mixed up Storm Giant with Lesser Sea Giant there.  I also noticed that the lesser sea giant homebrews still has "pummel/rake" in the SA line but no description and also has a line about "Frost giants like to take captives" at the bottom.


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Added greater to Homebrews and updated the lesser.

First, we'll need a replacement for the Good domain, since these are usually neutral.

Should we go with hide armor?  Treat the archelon shell shield as wood or steel shield?

Natural armor?  If we upsized the lesser to Huge, it would gain +3 higher natural armor, for a total bonus of +9.

I added a predict weather ability that mimics the weather eye spell.  Please critique.


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## freyar (May 9, 2008)

The lesser one looks good now.

Maybe Strength domain?

Hide armor makes sense; maybe we could even make it +1 hide.  Or else a breastplate made of shell or something.  I'd say the shield should count as a heavy wooden shield.

How about +11 natural armor, so it's better than an advanced lesser sea giant?

I think predict weather looks good, though the range is a little funny.  How about 1 mile per HD of the greater sea giant if we go Su?  Or we could go Sp and make it 1 mile + 1 per level at CL 16?  Maybe the second option make sense.  What spell equivalent would this be?


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Strength domain sounds reasonable.

Hide and shell armor (Stormwrack) are very close.  The only difference is Hide allows +1 greater Dex, and shell has 1 lower check penalty.

The similarly-sized storm giant has +12 natural armor, so +11 should work here.

The range bit was borrowed directly from the spell.  I mainly left it for a placeholder.  If we make it a spell-like ability, I'd suggest basing it off caster level.  Otherwise, as a Su ability, we can pick whatever range we'd like.  Weather eye is a 3rd-level divination spell.


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## freyar (May 10, 2008)

Let's go with hide armor and maybe put in a sidebar for shell.

Here's predict weather from the "old school spells compilation" someone posted in the general rpg forum last year:


> Predict Weather (Divination)
> Range: 0 Components: V, S, M
> Duration: Instantaneous Casting Time: 1 round
> Area of Effect: 2 square miles Saving Throw: None
> Explanation/Description: When a predict weather spell is cast by a druid, he or she gains 100% accurate knowledge of the weather (sky, temperature, precipitation) in a nine square mile area centering on the druid. For each level of experience of the druid casting the spell, two hours advance weather can be forecast. Thus, at 1st level the druid knows what the weather will be for two hours; at second level he or she knows the weather for 4 hours in advance, etc. (PHB)




So maybe we should take what you have and reduce range & duration to 2 hr/CL.  Might as well make it Sp.  What do you think?


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Mixing and matching the two...

Predict Weather (Su):  Twice per day, a greater sea giant can accurately predict the natural weather in a 16-mile radius up to 24 hours into the future.  If unnatural forces currently affect the weather, this ability reveals the spells or abilities in effect, though not the source of those abilities.  

I think Su just feels better in this case than spell-like.  If you feel strongly about spell-like, we can switch it back.  The only advantage to making it spell-like that I can see is if we want others to be able to counter it.   Otherwise, it just adds extra complications (need for caster level, level-equivalent, etc.)


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Su is fine, and I think it looks pretty good.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Also, how about dropping it to once per day?  I see no reason to do it twice, as it is automatically successful.  It would just be more bookkeeping for the DM to reset the 24 hour counter.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Yeah, good idea.  Any other SAs to add?

Skills: Craft (any one), Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Swim?


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Looks good, and I don't believe they have other special abilities (other than the psionic variant).

Updated.

Feats: 6
Awesome Blow, Cleave, Great Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Iron Will, Power Attack?

Challenge Rating: 12?  (They're a bit weaker than storm giants)

An adult male is about 25 feet long and weighs about x pounds. 

Greater sea giants speak Aquan and Giant?  (Note:  We forgot languages for the lesser sea giant...maybe Common and Giant for them?)


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Quicken SLA (baleful polymorph) instead of Iron Will, maybe?    CR 12 is ok.  4600 lb (that's scaling up the lesser, basically)?  Languages are good.  We also have the lesser sea giant age line in the greater sea giant; I say greaters should live to 400.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

No go on baleful polymorph...at CL 16, it can only quicken up to 4th-level spells.


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Rats.  Let's stick with Iron Will, then, and work on that psionic variant.  Do we want to give it some manifester level as a psion or just psionicize its SLAs?


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

> There is a 5% chance that any Type II sea giant will be psionic, with 140-190 ability points and randomly determined attack and defense modes. A psionic sea giant will have the following disciplines, all performed at the 12th level of mastery: animal telepathy, body weaponry, clairaudience, clairvoyance, and telepathy.




Hmmm...it might make more sense to simply state that they often advance as psions, since they are advancing by character class anyway.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

Sounds fine to me.  Makes the sidebar easy.   Then it's done, I guess.


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## demiurge1138 (May 15, 2008)

Looks so to me.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Moving on, then, this one is fairly similar...

*TITAN, SEA*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: //21"
HIT DICE: 22-28
% IN LAIR: 20%
TREASURE TYPE: A, U, Z
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 punch or 1 flipper slap
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 10-60 or 10-40
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Crushing hug, spells
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 50%
INTELLIGENCE: High and up
ALIGNMENT: Neutral (25% evil)
SIZE: L (40'+ 2'/HD beyond 22)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: X/16,600 + 35/hp

These monstrous beings inhabit the deepest, darkest depths of the ocean, although they sometimes swim to lesser depths to hunt for whales or passing ships. Occasionally, a hungry sea titan ventures into coastal waters. In appearance, sea titans resemble tritons - the main difference being their size. The lower body of a sea titan resembles a scaled pair of fish tails in place of legs (with the fins upright, not flat like a whale's), with the upper body of a man.  The sea titan has a ridge of small fins along its spine which extend down the creature's back and legs, diminishing before the flippers. The sea titan's fingers are webbed, and they have blue to bluegreen hair, silvery upper body skin, and blue-silver scales.  

Sea titans have the ability to summon and control creatures of the sea through charm monsters spell use (by touch, usable five times per day). Sea titans have the additional ability to use as many first- to third-level spells as a 6th-level magic-user (but at the 12th level of ability). 

Sea titans feed on larger sea creatures and occasionally on passing sailors. For the most part, however, sea titans do not approach or harass seafarers unless harassed themselves, unless they are evil. An attack on a sea-going ship is performed in one of several ways. The sea titan might batter the ship with its massive arms, capsize the ship by coming up from beneath it, or slap it with a flipper. If the ship is small enough, the sea titan may try to crush it by embracing it in its sinewy arms. A punch from a sea titan delivers 4 points of structural (hull) damage per hit; a flipper slap delivers 2 points. A crush delivers 8 points of structural damage. Sea titans have titan strength (a rating of 25).

Though they have little use for magical items, sea titans do have an interest in treasure and often have a sizable stockpile of gold and silver as a result. Sea titans speak their own language, as well as triton and 2-8 other oceanic tongues.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Well, since tritons and titans are both Outsiders, we should go with Outsider (aquatic).  Should we compare an advanced triton to a titan for abilities?  (These look Huge to me based on the size or maybe even Gargantuan.)


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Sure.  Increasing a triton to Huge yields...

Str 28, Dex 6, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 13, Cha 11

Compared with normal titan...

Str 43, Dex 12, Con 39, Int 21, Wis 28, Cha 24

...it seems quite a bit on the weak side, eh?


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

What if we compromise?
Str 36, Dex 11, Con 32, Int 19, Wis 21, Cha 24? 
I went with higher Cha for the SLAs.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews using those ability scores.


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

> Sea titans have the ability to summon and control creatures of the sea through charm monsters spell use (by touch, usable five times per day). Sea titans have the additional ability to use as many first- to third-level spells as a 6th-level magic-user (but at the 12th level of ability).



Innate casting as a sorcerer?  Do we just want to give it charm monster 5/day as an SLA or bump to dominate monster given its HD? (I think I prefer dominate.)


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Yes to innate spellcasting, and I tend to agree about dominate.


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

I think we should give it more casting than a 6th level sorcerer, since this guy is probably going to be very high CR. We might even consider switching sorcerer for druid casting.


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

Agreed about the bump to how many spells.  It should be 12th level at a minimum (like the listed CL), but probably around 20th.  It would be interesting to compare the titan's SLAs to sorc casting.  The switch to druid is an intriguing idea; I'll think about that.



> Sea titans have titan strength (a rating of 25).



Just noticed that.  Should we bump to Str 43, Dex 12 to put them more like a normal titan?


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Good suggestions on all that.

I definitely think we should up the Str and Dex based on that text.

Per the 2e Monstrous Manual...

"All titans are able to employ both mage or priest spells (dependent on the individual titan -- only one, not both) as a 20th-level spell caster."

Since titans lost their spellcasting and retained only their SLAs in 3e, I'd recommend we simply create a list of SLAs for them, based largely on druidic spells.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

I like the idea of SLAs only. For one thing, that's less paperwork for us.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Some suggestions:

Call Lightning 
Call Lightning Storm
Control Weather
Control Winds
Elemental Swarm (water only)
Greater Dispel Magic
Repel Wood
Storm of Vengeance
Warp Wood

The wood spells are to mess with ships.


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## demiurge1138 (May 19, 2008)

Chain lightning and telekinesis still fit, I think. I like the wood-destroying spells, and the weather control.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

This all sounds good.  The regular titan has 16 SLAs (good or evil ones get 4 more), and we have 11 so far.  What about also a high-level Summon Nature's Ally, Hold Monster, Water Breathing (for allies?), Whirlwind, Antilife Shell?  The good and evil ones could get the same additional SLAs as good and evil normal titans, if we want.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

Are we going for dominate monster as an SLA? I like freyar's suggestion, but would also like to offer up sunburst, transmute metal to wood and antipathy as options as well.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Ah, forgot about dominate monster.  Ok, here's a suggested list (can work out uses/day in a bit):

Call Lightning Storm
Control Weather
Control Winds
Elemental Swarm (water only)
Greater Dispel Magic
Repel Wood
Storm of Vengeance
Warp Wood
Chain lightning 
Telekinesis
Dominate Monster
Water Breathing
Whirlwind
Sunburst
Transmute Metal to Wood
Antipathy

I swapped Hold Monster for Dominate Monster, dropped Call Lightning (seemed kind of low-level, and we can bump the uses of Call Lightning Storm if we want), dropped SNA, and dropped Antilife Shell (since Antipathy more or less covers that).  But we could add one more more back in.  These have more HD than normal titans and could probably therefore use a little more in the SLA department.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Suggested usage:

Call Lightning Storm - 3/day
Control Weather - 3/day
Control Winds - at will
Elemental Swarm (water only) - 1/day
Greater Dispel Magic - at will
Repel Wood - 3/day
Storm of Vengeance - 1/day
Warp Wood - at will
Chain lightning - at will
Telekinesis - at will
Dominate Monster - 5/day
Water Breathing - at will
Whirlwind - 1/day
Sunburst - 1/day
Transmute Metal to Wood - 3/day
Antipathy - 1/day


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

Looks pretty good to me.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

I like it too.  Do we want to add the extra SLAs for good and evil sea titans a la the normal titan?  These are as follows.


			
				SRD said:
			
		

> In addition, titans of good or neutral alignment can use the following additional spell-like abilities. Caster level 20th. The save DCs are Charisma-based:
> 
> At will - daylight, holy smite (DC 21), remove curse (DC 21);
> 1/day - greater restoration.
> ...


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I like it too.  Do we want to add the extra SLAs for good and evil sea titans a la the normal titan?




I'm thinking "no", since they are usually neutral, with about a quarter being evil.  It seems like the standard titan is more alignment-focused.

That said, I'm not strongly opposed to the extra SLAs if anyone is strongly for them.


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

It's fine with me to leave off the SLAs for the good and evil sea titans, but I think we should have a few more in general, then, just because these should be at least as tough as a normal titan (given the HD).


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

How about adding one or more fog spells, like acid fog, fog cloud, obscuring mist?

Crushing hand from the evil titan's list seems useful too, for putting the squeeze on sailors.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Incendiary cloud would be mean... fun, but mean. Fog cloud would be good too. Are we giving these guys blindsight?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Even though incendiary cloud is maybe more fun, acid fog is probably more in line with the rest of the flavor.   Blindsight isn't unreasonable, and I like crushing hand, too.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

So how about:

Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--chain lightning, control winds, greater dispel magic, telekinesis, warp wood, water breathing; 5/day--dominate monster; 3/day--call lightning storm, control weather, fog cloud, repel wood, transmute metal to wood; 1/day--acid fog, antipathy, crushing hand, elemental swarm (water only), incendiary cloud, storm of vengeance, sunburst, whirlwind.  Caster level 20th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

What range for the blindsight?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

That's probably sufficient for the SLAs.  

How about 120 ft for blindsight?


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

> An attack on a sea-going ship is performed in one of several ways. The sea titan might batter the ship with its massive arms, capsize the ship by coming up from beneath it, or slap it with a flipper. If the ship is small enough, the sea titan may try to crush it by embracing it in its sinewy arms. A punch from a sea titan delivers 4 points of structural (hull) damage per hit; a flipper slap delivers 2 points. A crush delivers 8 points of structural damage.




We can borrow these abilities:

Capsize (Ex): A submerged dragon turtle that surfaces under a boat or ship less than 20 feet long capsizes the vessel 95% of the time. It has a 50% chance to capsize a vessel from 20 to 60 feet long and a 20% chance to capsize one over 60 feet long. 

Constrict Ship (Ex): Instead of crushing a ship with its tail, a sea drake can wrap its serpentine body around all but the largest ships and crush them or drag them below the waves automatically. This can be done to a rowboath (1 round), keelboats (3 rounds), longships (5 rounds), and sailing ships (10 rounds). Warships and galleys are too large for a sea drake to affect in this way.

Crushing Blow (Ex): A sea drake can use its tail flukes to smash a boat to splinters. The ship is hit automatically once every 10 rounds, taking tail smash damage (between attacks the sea drake is submerged). The ship's pilot must make a Reflex saving throw (DC 20) after each hit to keep the vessel from being breached and sinking in 1d10 minutes. Apply a modifier to the DC based on the type of ship: rowboat +4, keelboat +2, sailing ship or longship +0, warship -3, galley -5. Regardless of the ship's saving throw result, characters aboard the ship must make Reflex saving throws (DC 20); a successful save means the character takes 1d4 points of damage; on a failed save, a character on deck is hurled overboard and a character belowdecks takes 2d4 points of damage.




> Though they have little use for magical items, sea titans do have an interest in treasure and often have a sizable stockpile of gold and silver as a result.




Titans have double standard plus gear.

How about Double coins; double goods; no items?



> Sea titans speak their own language, as well as triton and 2-8 other oceanic tongues.




Titans speak Abyssal, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant.

Tritons speak Common and Aquan.

Combine the two?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

The vessel attacks look good, though we might need to re-jigger based on size.  (BTW, I just noticed that the size is listed as Medium, when I think we may want Gargantuan -- 40 ft long/tall, right?)

Let's do triple coins & goods, just to make them worth a bit.

Since these are native outsiders and neutral, I'd drop Abyssal and Celestial and go with Aquan, Common, Celestial, Draconic, and Giant.  If we really need another, add Undercommon.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Other than forgetting to change the word "Medium", everything else was based off Huge like that regular titan.   Do we want to raise them to Gargantuan?  If so, we're probably looking at modified physical stats to go with that.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Hmm, isn't 40 feet long Gargantuan?  Or is that still Huge?  I can never remember, and I think that's only given in the MM, not SRD (as far as I can ever find it).


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Yeah, Gargantuan starts at 32 feet.

And I checked, and titans didn't get any smaller between 2e and 3e, so it looks like the sea titan was intended to be bigger than a standard titan.


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

Ok, let's just bump the stats to G size.  Are the HD a little low now, or do you think it's still ok?


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

According to the MM, Gargantuan minimum HD is 12, so we're fine.  

Updated.

Note that the capsize ability is based off the Huge dragon turtle. It may need to be adjusted.  The other two ship-busting abilities are based off the Gargantuan sea drake, so those should be fine.

Skills: 12 at 25 ranks
Titan has Balance +7, Bluff +19, Climb +22, Concentration +37, Craft (any one) +28, Diplomacy +11, Disguise +7 (+9 acting), Heal +20, Intimidate +32, Jump +38, Knowledge (any one) +28, Listen +32, Perform (oratory) +30, Sense Motive +32, Search +28, Spellcraft +17, Spot +32, Survival +9 (+11 following tracks), Swim +16  (Note that the low ones are probably the result of synergy bonuses)

Feats: 8 (1 can be epic)
Titan has Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Sunder, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning).


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

We'll just up the sizes on the boats for capsize, I guess. I'll try to look at that on the weekend.

For feats, nothing inspiring springs to mind to add to that list.  But we could drop Imp Sunder (cause these guys don't use weapons anyway) and add Imp Init and Superior Init.  Maybe you can come up with something better.

I'll have to come back to the skills later.


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

How about 25 ranks each in Bluff, Concentration, Craft (any one), Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (any one), Listen, Sense Motive, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, and Swim?

Fre feats, Awesome Blow, Blind-Fight, Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Quicken Spell-Like Ability (chain lightning), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (control winds), Superior Initiative?

Any weekend inspiration on capsize?


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## freyar (May 27, 2008)

Skills and feats look good to me.

For capsize, why don't we bump the boat sizes to 30 and 80 ft for the percentage break points?


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## demiurge1138 (May 27, 2008)

Does it need Blind-Fight if it has blindsight?


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## Shade (May 27, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.

CR 22 (one higher than standard titan)?

Natural armor?  Titans have +19.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Demiurge is right; blindfight isn't gonna do anything for this one.  What about Imp Crit (slam) or Imp Overrun?

CR 22 is ok.  Maybe natural armor +22 to make up for the size increase (and a little).


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2008)

I prefer Imp Crit, and I like na +22.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Updated.

2d8 plus Str and 1/2 tail slap damage?

Advancement: 23-44 HD (Gargantuan); 45+ (Colossal)?

A sea titan is about 40 feet tall and weighs about x pounds.  (A titan is about 25 feet tall and weighs about 14,000 pounds.)


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Tail slap  and advancement seem about right.  Maybe go with 30,000 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2008)

Going by the weight of a humpback whale (about the same size, if not the same shape), 60,000 lb would be more accurate.


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## Shade (May 28, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (May 28, 2008)

Sounds good, and it looks done!


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## Shade (May 29, 2008)

Next...

Africa is a continent of rivers, with the Nile, the Zaire (formerly Congo), and Niger systems ranking among the longest in the world. There are also several great lakes surpassed in size only by those of North America. These bodies of water teem with a countless variety of fish, as well as hippopotami, crocodiles, and water birds.

Formidable as the hippo and crocodile are, even they are sometimes forced to retreat when confronted by the unknown beasts that share their environment. One dangerous rival is the dingonek, a 15'-long creature with a head like that of a lioness or otter, long saberlike fangs, thick scales like those of an armadillo, and a long, broad tail. The dingoneks body is covered with leopard-like spots, and its bulk rivals that of a hippo. Its feet bear reptilian claws.

*DINGONEK*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1-2
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVE: 9"//9"(6")
HIT DICE: 8 +4
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 bite and 2 claws
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-16/2-12/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Charge
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: VII/1300 + 12/hp

A fearless, aggressive carnivore that rivals the bulette in temper. Accustomed to attacking other large monsters, the dingonek has developed a charging attack using its head and body as a massive ram. Given 60' in which to reach charging speed, the dingonek will deliberately hurl itself at large or dangerous prey, inflicting double damage with claw attacks, an additional 2-20 hp damage from its head butt (though without a bite), and stunning all man-size or smaller beings as per a symbol of stunning. The dingonek can also dig into the earth with its claws and burst out of the ground to attack encampments and villages. Anyone standing behind a dingonek can be smacked with its tail for 3-12 hp damage, though this attack is at -4 to hit. Unfortunately, dingoneks can swim, too.

To be called "brave as a dingonek" means to be stupidly fearless and aggressive. The best policy that humans have when encountering a dingonek is to leave the area and hope it finds something bigger to pick on.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #122 (1987).


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2008)

Some variety of powerful charge for the body slamming attack? It can claw when body slamming, which suggests pounce. Do we want to give it a tail slap attack, or tail sweep?


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Definitely yes to the stunning powerful charge and pounce, probably both tail slap and sweep.

Animal?  The stunning bit could almost push it into magical beast territory.

Shall we work on ability scores?

Hippo: Str 24, Dex 9, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 3
Lion: Str 21, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Tiger: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

Maybe Str 24, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

Those ability scores definitely appeal.

And I wasn't under the impression that there was a question of animal vs. magical beast. Magical beast, all the way. It's a hideous fusion animal, much like a hippogriff, griffon or owlbear.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Let's work on the "stunning powerful charge".  Does this work?

Powerful Charge (Ex): When a dingonek charges, its claw attacks deal 4d6+6 points of damage.  Additionally, it can make a head butt attack.

Head Butt (Ex): When a dingonek charges, it may make a head butt attack at its full attack bonus which deals 2d10+7 points of bludgeoning damage.  The victim must also succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for x rounds. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

It looks like we may want to give it pounce, if it gets both claws and a head butt attack. Alternatively, we give it the head butt only on a charge. I think 1d2 would be a reasonable duration for stunning.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

Updated.

Can pounce and powerful charge coexist?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

I don't see why not...


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2008)

How's this for the tail sweep?

Tail Sweep (Ex): A dingonek can sweep with its tail as a standard action. The sweep affects a half-circle with a radius of 20 feet extending from an intersection on the edge of the dingonek's space in any direction. Medium or smaller creatures within the swept area take automatic tail slap damage (DC X Reflex half).  The save DC is Strength-based.

Skills: 11

Feats: 3

Advancement: 9-16 HD (Large); 17-32 HD (Huge)?


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

We should mention the head butt in pounce, too, I think.  Tail sweep looks ok.

Maybe split the ranks between Spot and Listen?  Seems reasonable for a predator like this.

Should we add tremorsense (like bulette) so it can sense prey while underground?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

Spot, Listen, tremorsense all make sense to me.


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## Shade (Jun 13, 2008)

60 feet for the tremorsense?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2008)

That's standard, isn't it? Let's go 60ft.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

60 feet sounds good.  

Feats: Multiattack, Power Attack, Ability Focus (Head Butt)?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 14, 2008)

The headbutt DC is already going to be pretty good, what with it being based on Str. Improved Initiative might be a good idea--if it goes first, it's more likely to get a charge in.


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## freyar (Jun 14, 2008)

You're right.  Let's go with Imp Init for the 3rd feat.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 6?

A dingonek is 15 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

CR 6 is probably right, due to the higher damage, even though the attack bonus is a little low.

Hippos average 4000 lb or thereabouts, and these are bigger, so maybe 10000 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2008)

There's still no definitive answer in the dingonek as to when the headbutt goes off. Is it included in pounce, or is it instead of the full attack?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

I think it would work well as part of pounce.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Part of the pounce.  Let's just say "including 2 claw attacks and a head butt attack" at the end of pounce.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

I don't think we need to specify that there are two claws in the pounce--it gets a full attack, which includes the claws anyway. Mentioning the claws specifically makes it seem as if they get two more, like a rake attack.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Fair enough, esp since we also mention them in powerful charge.  But I think we should mention the head butt.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Updated.

Are we finished?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

I would cut the mention of headbutt out of powerful charge, but after that... looks done.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Done and done.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2008)

This next one was created by James Jacobs, is affiliate with Iuz, and is wicked deadly.  What more can you ask for?  

*Murdakus*
Climate/Terrain: Empire of Iuz
Freq: Very rare
Org: Solitary
Activity Cycle: See below
Diet: Carnivore
Int:  Semi (2-4)
Treasure: Nil
Align: Neutral evil
# App: 1
AC: -4
Movement: 15, fly 18 (D), sprint 30
HD: 18
THAC0: 7
# ATT: 5
Dmg/Att: 2-12/2-12/3-30/3-30/2-24
SA: Death frenzy, severing, breath weapon
SD: Immunities, regeneration, absorb heat
Magic Resistance: Nil
Size: G (50' long, 45' tail)
Morale: Fanatic (17-18)
XP Value: 25,000

These behemoths are more than 90 feet long when fully grown and vaguely resemble dragons.  They have six powerful legs, a pair of batlike wings, and a long prehensile tail tipped with a scythelike stinger.  A triple row of spines extend from the base of their thick necks to the stinger.  Murdakus have two separate sets of saurian jaws filled with razor-sharp teeth as well as two eyes on each side of their horned heads.

Combat:  A murdakus attacks five times per round and can split these attacks among separate attackers.  Two of the creature's attacks are bites from its twin jaws for 3d10 points of damage each.  It can also rear up on its hind four feet, allowing attacks with its claws for 2d6 points of damage each.  Finally, the murdakus can strike at anything within 45 feet with its tail blade, inflicting 2d12 points of damage on a hit and severing a random limb from the target if it scores a natural 20.

Against creatures beyond melee range, a murdakus has only one attack: its breath weapon, usable once per turn.  This consists of a pair of narrow beams of intense heat that lance forth from each of its jaws.  Teh murdakus msut aim these twin beams in different directions in up to a 90 degree arc; creatures of size L or smaller can be hit by only one beam.  Each beam causes 12d6+24 points of damage to all creatures in its path (120 feet long and 5 feet wide).  Teh murdakus loathes to use this attack, however, since it lsoes the ability to regenerate for the next turn as its body heat replenishes.  If reduced to less than 1 hit point, a murdakus goes into a frenzy, gaining double its normal amount of attacks for 1 round.  At the end of this round, it loses a further 3d8 hit points and drops to the ground.

The murdakus regenerates damage at the rate of 1d4 points per round as it draws heat from the surrounding environment to magically repair its wounds.  Whorls of fire and shimmering radiance play over the body of a regenerating murdakus; anyone touching a regenerating murdakus must make a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon or suffer 1d4 points of heat-based damage.  A murdakus cannot regenerate damage caused by acid or negative energy.  A sure way to slay a murdakus permanently is to reduce it to negative hit poitns within a turn of its use of its breath weapon.

The murdakus is immune to mind-affecting attacks and suffer half damage from poisons that do not slay outright.  Fire attacks heal damage on a point-for-point basis.  Although resistant to natural cold, it suffers normal damage from magical cold.

Habitat/Society:  Murdakus are ravenous; just one of them can depopulate all life within 2 square miles in less than a day. Luckily, they have terribly inefficent metabolisms.  After 1d3 days of activity, a murdakus must rest for 2d4 weeks.  Until it rests, it suffers a +4 penalty to its AC, a -4 penalty to its THAC0, and a 50% reduction to its movement.  A very hot fire (like dragon breath or a fireball) revitalizes a murdakus for 1d3 days.

Ecology:  During the dark times of the Greyhawk wars, the Bonehart decided to create a chimerical monstrosity to devastate their enemies.  Their first attempt spawned a lesser form of murdakus that functioned for a short period of time before lapsting into a fatal coma.  Seeking to improve their creation, the Bonehart infused the beast with the ability to metabolize heat.  Unfortunately, the murdakus quickly built up an immunity to magical control and rebelled against their allies, causing great damage to Iuz's forces before retreating into the northern wilderness.  Iuz was angered at the turn of events, and ordered the deaths of all those who knew the secrets of murdakus creation and destroyed all of their notes.  Since then, no new murdakus have been created, and none have been known to breed.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #270 (2000).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 3, 2008)

I love these guys. 

Breath weapons or rays for the ranged attack? It sounds like a breath weapon, but the aiming in arcs is reminiscent of a beholder's eye rays.

We should standardize regeneration. Do we want to keep the mechanic where they lose regeneration the round after using it.

Are we going to keep the severing mechanic, or switch it to augmented critical? Frankly, for a beast of this caliber, I say let it lop off limbs.


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Wow, just wow.  Ok, I think this is a breath weapon.  I'm unsure whether to keep the aiming requirement or what, though.

I agree with standardizing regeneration.  Regarding the "no regeneration after breath weapon" thing, I see these as very tarrasque-like.  It would be nice to have some gimmick to kill them, but something a little more standard would be nicer.  If we can't come up with something good, I'd be ok with just the "reduce to -10 and hit it with wish or miracle" route.

Limb severing is good, but do we know what that does to PCs?


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Yeah, these guys are easily in my all-time top 20.  

I'm with you guys on retaining limb-servering, and I think it would be cool to disallow regeneration between breath weapon recharges.

Let's figure out type, size and ability scores so I can Homebrew them.

First up, dragon type? 

Colossal?  

We know Int is Semi (2-4).  Wis is probably at least average, and Cha is probably decent.

Looking at some Colossal dragons, I'd say Str 45-47, Con 31-33.  Any reason not to go with Dex 10?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

Dragon makes sense, and Colossal is imperative! 

How about Str 47, Dex 10, Con 33, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 15?  I'm happy shifting around a little on any of these.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews using those stats.  We can always fiddle with them later.

I kept the same damage as 2e for the attacks.  Do we want to increase to Colossal dragon standards (4d8 bite, 4d6 claws, 4d6 tail slap)?  Should we add wing buffets, crush, and tail sweep like Colossal true dragons?


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## freyar (Jul 3, 2008)

I say up the damage to Colossal dragon standards.  Given that these have low HD and hp compared to the SRD Colossal dragons, let's just add the wing buffets and crush but not tail sweep.  It's got a pretty good tail attack already.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

Taking a stab at a few of the abilities:

Breath Weapon (Su): Beam of intense heat, 120-foot line, once every 1d4 rounds, damage 12d8 fire, Reflex DC x half. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Death Frenzy (Ex):  If an attack reduces a murdakus to less than 1 hit point, the murdakus flies into a frenzy on its next action before falling unconscious (or dying).  The murdakus doubles its natural attacks for the round.  At the end of its round, it takes an additional 3d8 points of damage.

Healed by Fire (Ex):  An attack that deals fire damage breaks heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the murdakus to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. 

Limited Regeneration (Ex): Acid and negative energy deal normal damage to a murdakus. If a murdakus loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.  During any round in which its breath weapon is unavailable, a murdakus may not regenerate damage.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

Severing of limbs was detailed as an option in 3e, sort of--targeted damage. It suggested -4 penalties to appropriate schools in addition to the obvious inability to use weapons, or reduction of speed. The _wither limb_ spell, last seen in Libris Mortis, could also provide some good mechanical ideas.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

> a murdakus has only one attack: its breath weapon, usable once per turn. This consists of a pair of narrow beams of intense heat that lance forth from each of its jaws. Teh murdakus msut aim these twin beams in different directions in up to a 90 degree arc; creatures of size L or smaller can be hit by only one beam.



Should we make the breath weapon 2 120 ft lines at once?  There are some linnorms with similar double breath weapons, right?

The rest looks good.

Thanks for the info, demiurge.  Let's maybe go with the core options for severed limbs.


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## RavinRay (Jul 5, 2008)

Wow this is one bizarre dragon. What do the twin jaws look like? One on top of the other?

It's the dread linnorm that has cold and fire breath weapons for each of its two heads.

Shade's three (Ex) abilities seem spot-on. Now for the magical cold damage line.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 5, 2008)

RavinRay said:


> Wow this is one bizarre dragon. What do the twin jaws look like? One on top of the other?




Two heads fused together at the base of the skull, like those two-headed cows you see in freak shows.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Revising the breath weapon...

Breath Weapon (Su): Once every 1d4 rounds, as a standard action, a murdakus can breathe either with one head or with both heads simultaneously.  The breath weapon is a 120-foot line of intense heat that deals 12d8 points of fire damage (Reflex DC x half).  Each beam must be directed in a different trajectory, no greater than 90 degrees apart due to the structure of the heads.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Here's a stab at the severing ability...

Sever Limb (Ex):  The tail blade of a murdakus is extremely sharp, capable of severing limbs on a successful critical hit.  Randomly determine which limb is severed based on the creature's number of limbs (thus, a d4 for a typical humanoid, with a 1 and 2 severing an arm and 3 and 4 severing a leg, for example).  A severed leg imposes a -x penalty on Reflex saves, Dexterity checks, and Dexterity-based skill checks, and reduces the victim's land speed by 10 feet.  A victim who loses all its legs falls prone and its land speed is reduced to 5 feet.  A severed arm imposes a -x penalty on attack rolls, Strength checks, Climb checks, and Swim checks, and makes it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components unless it has a remaining hand free.  The victim also loses the ability to wield a weapon two-handed (unless it has at least two arms left).

Do we want to stick to limbs or expand it to vorpal/head as well?   I also think we should give them augmented critical with the tail.  Thoughts?



> The murdakus is immune to mind-affecting attacks and suffer half damage from poisons that do not slay outright. Fire attacks heal damage on a point-for-point basis. Although resistant to natural cold, it suffers normal damage from magical cold.




Should we simplify the first part to immunity to poison, or change it to a racial bonus on saves vs. poison?  

For the cold part, do we want to give it a cold tolerance type of ability for surviving in cold weather?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

+4 bonus on saves vs. cold, immunity to poison.

I think that a vorpal ability should be added.


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Revising...

Sever Limb (Ex): The tail blade of a murdakus is extremely sharp, capable of severing limbs or heads on a successful critical hit. Randomly determine which extremity is severed based on the creature's number of limbs and heads (for example, a d6 for a typical humanoid, with a 1 and 2 severing an arm, a 3 and 4 severing a leg, a 5 beheading the opponent, and reroll a 6). A severed leg imposes a -x penalty on Reflex saves, Dexterity checks, and Dexterity-based skill checks, and reduces the victim's land speed by 10 feet. A victim who loses all its legs falls prone and its land speed is reduced to 5 feet. A severed arm imposes a -x penalty on attack rolls, Strength checks, Climb checks, and Swim checks, and makes it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components unless it has a remaining hand free. The victim also loses the ability to wield a weapon two-handed (unless it has at least two arms left).  A severed head kills most creatures instantly.  Some creatures, such as many aberrations and all oozes, have no heads. Others, such as golems and undead creatures other than vampires, are not affected by the loss of their heads.


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## freyar (Jul 9, 2008)

All looking good.  If we don't have a value for the penalties for missing limbs from another conversion, probably the -4 demiurge mentioned above is appropriate.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Thoughts on augmented critical for the tail?  At the very least, I'd suggest Improved Critical for one of its feats.

How should we handle this?



> Habitat/Society: Murdakus are ravenous; just one of them can depopulate all life within 2 square miles in less than a day. Luckily, they have terribly inefficent metabolisms. After 1d3 days of activity, a murdakus must rest for 2d4 weeks. Until it rests, it suffers a +4 penalty to its AC, a -4 penalty to its THAC0, and a 50% reduction to its movement. A very hot fire (like dragon breath or a fireball) revitalizes a murdakus for 1d3 days.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 9, 2008)

How about this:

Inefficient Metabolism (Ex): The inefficient metabolism of a murdakus limits its activity.  After 1d3 days of activity, the murdakus is exhausted until it can rest for 2d4 weeks.  Any fire based attack dealing more than 20(?) points of damage negates the exhausted condition for 1d3 days.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2008)

Looks great!


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## freyar (Jul 14, 2008)

This is really shaping up!  I like it all so far.

Definitely a yes on augmented crit for the tail as far as I'm concerned.



> Whorls of fire and shimmering radiance play over the body of a regenerating murdakus; anyone touching a regenerating murdakus must make a successful saving throw vs. breath weapon or suffer 1d4 points of heat-based damage.




We might want to put fire damage (I know it says 1d4, but 1d6 might be more appropriate) in the attacks, as well as something like this:

Heat Aura (Su): During any round that the murdakus may regenerate (that is, any round in which it may use its breath weapon), any creature that touches the murdakus, including with a touch or natural weapon attack, must make a DC X Reflex save or take X points of fire damage.  Any creature grappled by the murdakus automatically takes X points of damage per round with no save.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

How about 2d8 fire like an elder fire elemental?

How's this?

Augmented Critical (Ex): A murdakus's tail-blade threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit and possibly severing a limb or head (see sever limb, below).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2008)

Perhaps there should be a save on severing limbs? Strength based?

And I like their natural attacks doing fire damage, as well as fiery defense.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2008)

Nothing to see here...


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## Shade (Jul 14, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Perhaps there should be a save on severing limbs? Strength based?




Fort or Reflex?



demiurge1138 said:


> Nothing to see here...




...moving on...


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 14, 2008)

Hm... both Fort or Reflex make sense. I'm leaning Fortitude at the moment, but this may be subject to future change. My roommate also suggests that the saving throw DC be something like 10+ damage dealt.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Hm... both Fort or Reflex make sense. I'm leaning Fortitude at the moment, but this may be subject to future change. My roommate also suggests that the saving throw DC be something like 10+ damage dealt.



I also lean toward Fort, as it may be too late to get out of the way if you've already been critted.   Your roommate makes a good suggestion for the DC as well. 

Elder fire elemental damage for the aura (is that really the right word for something that only happens on touch?) and natural weapon damage makes good sense to me.


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

Updated.

Do the revisions to heat (formerly "heat aura") and sever limb look good? 

Space/Reach: 40 ft./40 ft. (45 ft. with tail)?

Fill in some X's:

Armor Class: 24+ (–8 size, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x

Darkvision x ft.

limited regeneration x

A murdakus is 50 feet long with a 45-foot tail and weighs x pounds.

Murdakus speak x.


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## freyar (Jul 15, 2008)

Revisions look good, and so does space/reach.

I guess +22 natural armor is ok, though I could be persuaded to go higher than the original. 

Darkvision 120 ft?

The original had 1d4 for regeneration, which seems too low.  The tarrasque has 40, so maybe 15?

70 tons?

Do they speak?  If so, I'd go with either Common or Draconic (or both).


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## Shade (Jul 15, 2008)

freyar said:


> I guess +22 natural armor is ok, though I could be persuaded to go higher than the original.




The tarrasque is +30, so I'd see maybe going up to +25 or so with these guys.



freyar said:


> Do they speak?  If so, I'd go with either Common or Draconic (or both).




At Int 4, they'd barely speak.  Maybe rudimentary Draconic?

Skills: 63

Feats: 7


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 16, 2008)

Agree to natural armor +25, rudimentary Draconic. 

Feats: Cleave, Great Cleave, Hover, Improved Critical (tail), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack

Or is Improved Critical too mean?


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Could we just "improve" augmented critical and save a feat if we want to do that?  I could go for Snatch in place of Imp Crit.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Or is Improved Critical too mean?




Not for me.  

Let's stick with the 18-20 and leave it up to the truly rat bastard DMs to give 'em Improved Critical.  

21 ranks each in Listen, Spot, and Survival?

Environment: Any?

Advancement:  19+ HD (Colossal)?

CR: 18?


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

Sounds good on all the above.  No HD cap for the advancement?


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> Sounds good on all the above.  No HD cap for the advancement?




Nah.  Let's allow them to reach truly kaiju proportions.  James would like that.


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

I can see the movie posters now: Murdakus vs Tarrasque!


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

So...is this one done?


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## freyar (Jul 16, 2008)

If everyone else is happy with it, I am.


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2008)

I e-mailed James Jacobs to show him what we'd done with his "baby".  He liked it, and also passed along that the plural form should be "murdaki".  I'll update the entry accordingly.


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

*Tolwar*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 5-16
(d12+4) + 1-4 infants
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: 15”
HIT DICE 6
% IN LAIR: Nil
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 (2)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: (see below)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hurling stones for 2-24 points damage
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below. Also, superior bearing, surprise only on a 1.
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
SIZE: L (6’ high at shoulder)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil

Tolwars are herd animals, preferring open grasslands, near water, to other terrain. At first glance, they appear to be little more than undersized, trunkless elephants. The error of this assumption will soon become obvious to anyone who should attack them, however.  

Tolwars are able to employ at will a limited form of telekinesis, which they use to uproot grass or playfully throw waterballs at each other. In addition, it can be used twice per round to various advantages. By telekinesis, Tolwars are able to lift up to 1000 gp weight, such as a large boulder, and hurl it at an opponent, doing 2-24 points of damage. Similarly, such missiles can be caught by Tolwars’ telekinesis 50% of the time. Up to 2 normal missiles, such as arrows, bolts, or spears, can also be caught in a round (75% chance for each catch), or the above functions (hurling and catching) can be mixed as needed, up to two actions per round. The telekinetic ability has a functioning range of 2”, though boulders may be hurled as far as 10”, with a -2 to hit at long range (5” or more) and a -1 to hit at medium range (3”).

A Tolwar raised from infancy by a single person becomes a loyal, loving mount. They are the equal of horses in intelligence, and, though slower, are much hardier. At 7500 gp weight carried they are slowed to half speed, up to their maximum load of 10,000 gp weight.  They will defend their masters dutifully to the death, assaulting their enemies with boulders or other handy objects, or catching missiles hurled at their riders. They may also trample opponents for 2-8 points damage with each forefoot which hits, striking once per round (double damage if charging). A trained Tolwar will defend his master from the second round of battle onward. It should be noted that if a Tolwar successfully tramples an opponent, the victim will be prone on the next round unless initiative is gained. Lance thrusts made from a Tolwar’s back do damage as from the back of a heavy warhorse, with +4 to damage.

Tolwars are not easy to raise or train. First of all, before they are  bought or captured, a pen strong enough to contain them must be built. For obvious reasons, the pen and all the ground within 2” of it should be cleared of any movable object. Gates or doors must be designed with padlocks, for a Tolwar will easily lift bars. The pen walls will always need to be of stone. The pen must be at least 100 feet square, to allow the growing Tolwar room to exercise. A three-foot thickness of stone, six feet high, of the dimension of 100 feet to a side, will probably cost around 1200 gp. A shelter of stone will also have to be built, at about the same cost. And of course, all stones used in construction had better weigh more than 1000 gp!  

In addition, if an infant Tolwar’s initial reaction is not 60% or greater, it will not respond to its new owner, eventually becoming unmanageable.

Infant Tolwar have 2 hit dice. Newborns can already telekinese 250 gp weight, and hurl small stones as far as 4”, doing 1-8 points of damage. They may also butt with their heads for 1-3 points of damage. An adult Tolwar consumes roughly five times as much grain as a heavy warhorse each day, at 5 sp a meal. Once imprinted, a Tolwar will never favor anyone but the man who raised it.

Saddles, barding, and other accoutrements generally cost triple the price of the same gear for a horse. Bridle and bit are unnecessary, as a Tolwar is guided by nudging it with the foot behind one ear or the other.

Tolwars give birth to only one infant at a time (after 1½ years pregnancy).  Infants take 4 years to reach maturity, although they can be ridden into battle after only 2 years. They live to around 20 years of age.

A healthy infant Tolwar is valued at 10,000 gp on the open market.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #43 (1980).


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2008)

Everyone agreed on magical beast, then?

Maybe we should include some abbreviated stats for infants.

Might be able to get physical stats by "deadvancing" elephants to Large.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

Sounds good to me. They also need stability. Perhaps we should give them an entropic shield effect and/or Deflect Arrows?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Maybe.  Does telekinesis allow you to catch ranged weapons?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

Not as such. We could do a rock catching thing like a giant.


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

Here are the scores for a "downsized" elephant:

Str 22, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 7


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Those look pretty good.  Want to bump Wis a little to help with the "only surprised on 1" bit or just give them a lot of Spot & Listen along with Alertness?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 30, 2008)

We'll also want to boost Charisma, as telekinesis' DCs will be Cha-based.


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Yeah, let's put Cha at 15.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

It isn't clear what type of attack they have besides the telekinesis.  The infants head butt, which we could retain for the adults.  Take the gore attack from an elephant and we have a slam and two stamps.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

I like headbutting.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

The original also seems to have stamps, so let's go with the headbutt and 2 stamps for the adults (maybe drop the stamps if we write up the infants).


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

Getting back to the telekinetic powers, here are some sources of inspiration:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticForce.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/telekineticManeuver.htm

Telekinesis (Su): A metalmaster can affect one creature within 60 feet as if using a telekinesis spell (DC 14). Its effective Strength is 25 (+7 bonus) for the purpose of any opposed checks required in conjunction with this ability. If the metalmaster chooses the violent thrust function of the telekinesis spell, the effects are resolved immediately and do not last beyond its turn.

The metalmaster's magnetism ability could also provide some possible ideas for the "catching missiles":

Magnetism (Su): A metalmaster can create magical fields of magnetic energy. Once per round as a free action, it can create one of the following effects (caster level 12th). The save DCs for these abilities are Charisma-based, and its magnetism has an effective Strength score of 25.

A metalmaster's magnetism affects only metallic creatures, creatures wearing metal armor, or creatures carrying metal weapons or shields. Creatures carrying metal objects can simply drop them to avoid the effect. The metalmaster's magnetism affects the dropped objects just as it would any other unattended items.

Each of these abilities functions continuously until the metalmaster's next turn unless otherwise noted. Any creature that enters the area of the magnetism is subject to its effects.

Attraction (Su): All metallic creatures and objects within 60 feet of the metalmaster are entangled and dragged closer to it. This ability functions like a bull rush (check modifier +11), except that it does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and targets that lose the opposed check move towards the metalmaster instead of away from it. The metalmaster does not move if it loses the opposed Strength check.

Repelling Aura (Su): All metallic creatures and objects within 60 feet of the metalmaster are pushed backward. This ability functions like attraction (see above), except that the affected creatures are not entangled, and they move away from the metalmaster rather than toward it. While using this ability, the metalmaster gains a +8 deflection bonus to AC against attacks by weapons that have metal components.


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

How about something like this?

Telekinetics (Su):  A tolwar can, as a full-round action, generate any two of the following effects:

_Toss_: A tolwar can throw a 25lb object (within a range of 10 ft) a distance of 20 ft.  The tolwar can throw this object toward another creature with a ranged touch attack.  If successful, the attack does 1d6 hp of damage.

_Catch_: A tolwar can catch a single large object of up to 25lb or up to two small projectiles (such as darts, arrows, bolts, etc).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2008)

Catching... doesn't work as written, unless the catching field lasts for a full round.


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## freyar (Aug 5, 2008)

Something more like this?

_Catch:_ A tolwar can catch a single large object of up to 25lb or up to two small projectiles (such as darts, arrows, bolts, etc).  These objects can be caught at any time in the full round.

Want to add telekinetic special maneuvers, too?  Not strictly in the original, but they would seem appropriate.


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2008)

I think telekinetic maneuvers would be appropriate, yes.


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## Shade (Aug 6, 2008)

Agreed.


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## freyar (Aug 6, 2008)

If we took this from the telekinesis spell, it'd be a serious downgrade for the tolwar, since they'd have to use Cha instead of Str for the bonus on the maneuvers (and probably should lose their size bonus as well).  So I'd decrease the range but keep Str, as follows:

_Combat Maneuver_: A tolwar can perform a single bull rush, disarm, grapple (including pin), or trip attempt on any creature within 30 ft. Resolve these attempts as normal, except that they don’t provoke attacks of opportunity and that a failed attempt doesn’t allow a reactive attempt by the target (such as for disarm or trip). No save is allowed against these attempts, but spell resistance applies normally.  The tolwar uses its usual base attack bonus, Str bonus, and size modifier.  To maintain a grapple, a tolwar must use this option every round.

It occurs to me that we should add a range to catch.  Maybe 10 ft?

_Catch[\i]: A tolwar can catch a single large object of up to 25lb or up to two small projectiles (such as darts, arrows, bolts, etc). These objects can be caught at any time in the full round but must be within 10 ft of the tolwar when they are caught._


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## Shade (Aug 8, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 11, 2008)

Just to continue on here, is 1d6+ Str reasonable for the headbutt?  1d8 for the stamps?  We may need to give these a slam or use the headbutt damage for trample.


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

That looks reasonable, and I'd use stamps for trample.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

So trample would be 1d8 +X then, I guess.

Concentration for the skill (I think Su abilities need Concentration, am I right?)?  For feats, maybe Multiattack, Endurance, Iron Will?


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## Shade (Aug 18, 2008)

freyar said:


> Concentration for the skill (I think Su abilities need Concentration, am I right?)?  For feats, maybe Multiattack, Endurance, Iron Will?




Not usually.  Mainly just SLAs require Concentration.  Wanna split Listen and Spot like an elephant?

The feats look good.

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 18, 2008)

Yeah, let's split the skills.  Environment looks good.  CR 4?  Advancement: 7-11 HD (Medium), 12-17 HD (Large). 800-1000lb?


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## Shade (Aug 19, 2008)

Updated.

Time to work on the training/as mounts section?


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## Shade (Aug 20, 2008)

We may be able to use this as inspiration...

Training a Elven Hound
Although their intelligence is no higher than that of a typical canine, elven hounds have an independent spirit and tend to distrust nonelves. To be trained, an elven hound must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer. An elven hound usually has a friendly attitude toward trainers who are elves or who have elf blood (such as half-elves), provided the trainer supplies the hound with sustenance for at least a few days and has not attacked or mistreated the creature. An elven hound is indifferent (at best) toward most other creatures. Changing an elven hound's attitude requires a wild empathy check (with the normal -4 penalty applied against magical beasts). A character can use a Diplomacy check instead, provided the character has some way to communicate with the cooshee, such as access to a speak with animals spell.

Training a friendly elven hound requires a Handle Animal check. An elf (or a creature with elf blood) can train an elven hound without penalty, but the Handle Animal DCs for any other trainer increase by 5 (in addition to the normal +5 increase to DCs for training a magical beast). The time require depends on the tricks or task the elven hound must learn, as noted in the Handle Animal skill description.

An elven hound pup is worth 150 gp on the open market, but pups are seldom offered for sale. A hound is ready for training by age two and can live for 50 years. Adult elven hounds are generally trained for hunting or guarding. A fully trained elven hound costs at least 300 gp on the open market, if it is offered for sale at all.


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## freyar (Aug 21, 2008)

Ok, let's give it a shot:

Training a Tolwar
Although their intelligence is similar to that of a typical horse, tolwars have a playful spirit and can be difficult to train. To be trained, a tolwar must have a friendly attitude toward the trainer. A tolwar usually has a friendly attitude toward trainers who have provided to tolwar with sustenance for at least a few days and has not attacked or mistreated the creature. A tolwar is indifferent (at best) toward most other creatures. Changing a tolwar's attitude requires a wild empathy check (with the normal -4 penalty applied against magical beasts). A character can use a Diplomacy check instead, provided the character has some way to communicate with the tolwar, such as access to a speak with animals spell.

Training a friendly tolwar requires a Handle Animal check.  The time require depends on the tricks or task the tolwar must learn, as noted in the Handle Animal skill description.  Tolwars can be trained to use their telekinesis as part of the Attack or Defend tricks, but this raises the check DC by 2 in each case.

An infant tolwar is worth X gp on the open market. A tolwar is ready for training by age two and can live for 20 years. Adult tolwars (age 4 years and older) are generally trained for combat riding. A fully trained tolwar costs at least X gp on the open market, if it is offered for sale at all.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Updated.

We'll need this, too:

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a tolwar is up to 300 pounds; a medium load, 301–600 pounds; and a heavy load, 601–900 pounds. A tolwar can drag 4,500 pounds.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Updated.

We'll need this, too:

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a tolwar is up to x pounds; a medium load, x–x pounds; and a heavy load, x–x pounds. A tolwar can drag x pounds.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

What do you think for prices?  Compared to a heavy warhorse (400 gp), I'd think a trained tolwar should be at least 1000-2000 gp.  Maybe an infant should be 1/5 or 1/4 that much?

Carrying Capacity: A light load for a tolwar is up to 519 pounds; a medium load, 520–1038 pounds; and a heavy load, 1039–1560 pounds. A tolwar can drag 7800 pounds.

(That's using the x3 multiplier for Large quadrupeds.)


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Here are some other magical beasts for comparison:

Hippogriff (3 HD) eggs are worth 2,000 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 3,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,000 gp to rear or train a hippogriff.

Deep hound (6 HD) pups are worth 4,000 gp on the open market. Professional trainers charge 250 gp to train a deep hound.

Griffon (7 HD) eggs are worth 3,500 gp apiece on the open market, while young are worth 7,000 gp each. Professional trainers charge 1,500 gp to rear or train a griffon.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Following those, let's change the last paragraph of the training section to (I think these are probably not quite worth as much as a griffon b/c of the griffon's flight):

"Tolwar young are worth 5,000 gp each on the open market. Professional trainers charge 1,500 gp to rear and train a tolwar."

We should also mention in the 2nd paragraph of the training that DCs for Handle Animal checks are increased by 5 because it is a magical beast.  And there should be a "d" at the end of "required" when discussing the time.


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## Shade (Aug 22, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Aug 22, 2008)

Looks done to me.


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## Shade (Sep 9, 2008)

*Light worm*
Created by Willie Callison
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1 (75%) or 1-3
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: 6”
HIT DICE: 4
% IN LAIR: 40%
TREASURE TYPE: I, Y
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 75% (see below)
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (7’-10’ long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

These creatures are usually found singly in dungeons and similar subterranean settings. The light worm’s principal weapon is a very poisonous bite. Victims must make a saving throw vs. poison (at +1 on first bite, then -2 for each additional bite, cumulative) or die in 1-8 minutes.  There is no known antidote for this poison, although Slow Poison and Neutralize Poison spells are effective.

The bite, however, isn’t the creature’s most potent weapon. There is a 35% chance per round that the light worm will create a sphere of colored lights around its victims. The diameter of this hypnotic sphere is 20 feet, and the monster can cast it at a range of 120 feet. During the first three rounds of its use, all in the affected area are dizzy (-2 “to hit” per round, cumulative). In rounds 4 and 5, the victims will have become so dizzy that no forms of attack are possible, and it will be a struggle merely to keep their feet. After six rounds of continuous exposure to the lights, those affected will fall unconscious for 11-20 minutes, during which the light worm will devour its prey if left undisturbed.  

A saving throw vs. spells at -2 is allowed during the first round of the worm’s mental attack; those who make the save will suffer only the dizzying effects of the first three rounds, with the corresponding penalties “to hit.” After three rounds, they will shake off the hypnotic effects of the sphere and will be able to attack normally. Dispel Illusion, Mind Blank, and True Seeing stop the effects of the light pattern, as does the use of a Helm of Telepathy.

Once the creature begins to use its colored-light attack, there is only a 5% chance per round thereafter that it will discontinue that form of attack. The creature has the ability to maintain the pattern despite all attacks directed at it, or any damage it takes short of death. If the lights are negated by some means or the worm ceases to maintain the sphere, the monster will immediately return to biting or it will disengage. It generates a sphere of light once every 12 hours.

If more than one light worm is encountered, and more than one uses the colored-light attack, victims must make saving throws against each sphere of lights.If a victim is affected by more than one sphere, each at full strength, the effects are cumulative.

Light worms are immune to Sleep, Charm, Hold, and Illusion spells of any strength or form. Snakes to Sticks will stun the creature for 1-3 rounds, cancelling the light pattern in use at the time.  Cold- and heat-based attacks do double damage if the creature fails a saving throw, normal damage otherwise. The worm’s magic resistance does not apply to cold- and heat-based spells, or to spells which negate the light pattern.

The light worm looks very much like a giant snake, but there are several distinguishing features, The worm’s coloring is black on the underside and alternating bands of violet and light blue on top. The head is that of a normal snake, except for two small bumps above the eyes that may have been or may yet evolve into horns. Along the beast’s underside are two rows of small stubs which are apparently the vestiges of some sort of “feet.”

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #61 (1982).


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 9, 2008)

Hm. Do we want to convert the light orb straight, or replace it with a similar existing spell, like rainbow pattern or scintillating pattern? Actually, looking at the scintillating pattern spell, tweaking that might be a good idea.


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## freyar (Sep 10, 2008)

I agree that the effects of scintillating pattern on 6HD or less creatures is roughly right, though sort of reverse order.  I'd maybe go dazzled 1d4 rounds, dazed 1d4 rounds (or possibly stunned), unconscious 2d10+Con modifier (the worm's) minutes.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Sep 10, 2008)

Either way could work.

Let's figure out the basics.

I'm assuming Large Magical Beast.

A Large viper has Str 10, Dex 17, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2

Semi-intelligence converts to 2-4.

Cha should be decent as the scintillating effect would likely be Cha-based.


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

Con should also be ok for the poison.  How about Str 10, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 15?


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## Shade (Sep 11, 2008)

Added.

I retained the climb speed of a Large viper.  Do we want a swim speed as well?   Most snakes have 'em.



> Light worms are immune to Sleep, Charm, Hold, and Illusion spells of any strength or form.




Immunity to mind-influecing effects?



> Snakes to Sticks will stun the creature for 1-3 rounds, cancelling the light pattern in use at the time.




Since it's no longer a core spell, ignore that bit?



> Cold- and heat-based attacks do double damage if the creature fails a saving throw, normal damage otherwise. The worm’s magic resistance does not apply to cold- and heat-based spells, or to spells which negate the light pattern.




Will vulnerability to cold and fire cover it?


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## freyar (Sep 11, 2008)

I'm ambivalent on swim.
Immunity to mind-affecting is good.
Unless you can think of a thematically appropriate spell, I'm for ignoring that.
Yeah, I think vulnerability is ok.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 12, 2008)

Let's let them not swim.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Updated.



freyar said:


> I agree that the effects of scintillating pattern on 6HD or less creatures is roughly right, though sort of reverse order.  I'd maybe go dazzled 1d4 rounds, dazed 1d4 rounds (or possibly stunned), unconscious 2d10+Con modifier (the worm's) minutes.  What do you think?




Here's a rough draft...

Scintillating Sphere (Su):  Twice per day, a light worm can generate a  twisting pattern of discordant, coruscating colors.  This creates a 10-foot-radius burst with a maximum range of 120 feet.  All creatures within the area are dazzled for 1d4 rounds.  Additionally, creatures must succeed on a DC X Will save or be dazed for 1d4 rounds following the dazzled duration.  A second save is required to avoid unconsciousness for 2d10+x minutes after that.  The save DC is Charisma-based.  Sightless creatures are not affected by this ability.

The light worm must use a standard action each round to maintain this effect.  If it does not, all current conditions affecting creatures are dismissed.


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## freyar (Sep 12, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  Can we switch to maintain concentration rather than use a standard action?  Or else keep people unconscious if it switches the ability off?  That way it can eat unconscious victims as in the original text.


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## Shade (Sep 12, 2008)

Sure.  We'll just need to be sure to give it a good Concentration skill.


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## freyar (Sep 13, 2008)

Ok, let's max out Concentration, then.  For Feats, how about Ability Focus (scintillating sphere) and Weapon Focus (bite)?


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 13, 2008)

I was thinking Ability Focus and Stealthy myself, but Weapon Focus would also work.


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## freyar (Sep 14, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I was thinking Ability Focus and Stealthy myself, but Weapon Focus would also work.



Hadn't thought about these as being sneaky, but I like it!  Let's go with Stealthy.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Updated.

Treasure Type I and Y includes...
3-18 100s of platinum pieces: 30%
2-20 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: Any 1: 15%
2-12 1,000s of gold pieces: 70%

So...Treasure:  Double coins, double goods (gems only); standard items?

Advancement: x

A light worm is 10 feet long and weighs x pounds.

CR 3?  (They are deadlier than a CR 2 Large viper)


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Seems weird that this kind of critter would have so much treasure, but yeah, sure.  Maybe remove the gems only restriction since they can have jewelry also.

5-10 HD (Large) 11-20 HD (Huge?

500 lb?

CR 3 is ok.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 15, 2008)

Are these snake-shaped or fat worms? The average king cobra is about 12-13 feet long and only weighs 12-13 pounds.


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

It's probably open to interpretation, as the illustration doesn't include any other creatures for comparison.

Also, we need a name for the group:  Organization: Solitary or x (2-3)


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Seems snakish to me.  I can revise down to 10-15lb. 

If we're going for snake, I kind of like "knot" for organization.  Otherwise, nest is more generic but also probably good.  Or we could do something silly like "candelabra."


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## Shade (Sep 15, 2008)

Knot sounds good.

Updated.

The flavor text is awfully slim.  Any suggestions to jazz it up?


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## freyar (Sep 15, 2008)

Not much springing to mind at the moment, but I'll let you know.


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## Shade (Sep 16, 2008)

We can just leave them of mysterious origin and give DMs the freedom to decide.


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## freyar (Sep 16, 2008)

"The origin of light worms is unknown, but some sages speculate that they may be escaped creations of the aboleths." ??  Anyway, I think they're done.


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## Shade (Sep 19, 2008)

*Surchur*
Created by Jeff Brandt
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 2
MOVE: 6"
HIT DICE: 5-7
% IN LAIR: 60%
TREASURE TYPE: U,V,W,Z
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5-20
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (9-10' tall)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil

This loathsome creature has no redeeming physical features. Vaguely humanoid, the creature’s body is light brown to tan in color. Protruding from the upper front of the body are eight slimy, brownish-green tentacles. These tentacles range from 6-8 feet in length, depending on the creature’s body size.

The mouth of a surchur doesn’t have teeth, but is lined with rows upon rows of sticky cilia that secrete a chemical which digests the flesh of humans and demihumans.

Two stout horns protrude from the middle back of the beast. They are not unlike those of a bull, but somewhat larger. The horns are composed of an ivory-like material which is generally of good quality. Each horn can be sold for100-600 gp, depending on its quality and the size of the surchur it came from.

The surchur will typically attack first by trying to grab a victim in its tentacles; if an 18 or higher is the result of the monster’s “to hit” roll, the victim is caught and immediately takes 5-20 points of damage. During the next two rounds the surchur will attempt to pull the captured victim into its mouth. The victim may attempt to break free in each round, with a base chance of 20% for success, plus 10% for each plus “to hit” the character may have due to high strength.

While the surchur is holding a victim it cannot attack another figure.  A victim which is dragged into the surchur’s mouth will take 2-8 points of damage per round from the digestive juices until the victim or the monster is dead.  A surchur cannot put more than one victim in its mouth at one time. However,
it prefers fresh food if it has a choice. A second victim can be grabbed and held while the first is in the mouth. When the tentacles have immobilized another victim, the first one will be expelled from the mouth cavity even if it isn’t dead, and the new victim will be engulfed instead.

If the surchur does not succeed in grabbing a victim, it will still do damage to an adversary within range of its tentacles by hitting with the tentacles themselves.  A surchur which is not injured will be able to effectively attack with a bunch of five tentacles at once, with each tentacle considered to do 1-4 points of damage on a successful hit. Any blow which is aimed at a tentacle, hits it, and does at least 3 points of damage will sever a tentacle. A surchur with fewer than 5 tentacles intact will do correspondingly less damage from a strike, and a surchur with fewer than 4 tentacles will not keep its grip on a victim as easily; the chance to escape per round is increased to 60% against a surchur with 4 tentacles, +10% for every tentacle less than four.

If a surchur is very hungry, it will continue to attempt grabbing victims as long as it is able. If its appetite has been at least partly satisfied, it will attempt to flee when seriously injured. A surchur’s lost tentacles will grow back in 3-6 days.

The typical climate in which surchurs are found is jungle-like, but they can be found in just about any environment except extreme cold.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #55 (1981).


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## RavinRay (Sep 20, 2008)

Large monstrous humanoid, or aberration?


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## GrayLinnorm (Sep 20, 2008)

I have this issue, and it looks like an aberration to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Sep 20, 2008)

Another vote for aberration.


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## freyar (Sep 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Another vote for aberration.



Same here, I think.

Looks like Imp Grab plus Constrict and a modified Swallow Whole (something like Chew, but only acid damage).


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Aberration it is!

Let's figure out ability scores.

Int is Average (8-10).  Other mental scores are probably similar.

Str should be decent or better.  

With a converted AC of 18, it either gets alot of natural armor, or has a decent Dex score.  Maybe nat armor +5, Dex 16-17?

Con is at least average.


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## freyar (Sep 23, 2008)

Str 18, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 9?


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## Shade (Sep 23, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.



> These tentacles range from 6-8 feet in length, depending on the creature’s body size.




Extended reach with tentacles?



> NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
> DAMAGE/ATTACK: 5-20






> The surchur will typically attack first by trying to grab a victim in its tentacles; if an 18 or higher is the result of the monster’s “to hit” roll, the victim is caught and immediately takes 5-20 points of damage.




Single, cluster attack or 5 individual attacks at 1d4 damage each?



> During the next two rounds the surchur will attempt to pull the captured victim into its mouth. The victim may attempt to break free in each round, with a base chance of 20% for success, plus 10% for each plus “to hit” the character may have due to high strength.




Drag mechanic like cave fisher?



> The mouth of a surchur doesn’t have teeth, but is lined with rows upon rows of sticky cilia that secrete a chemical which digests the flesh of humans and demihumans.






> While the surchur is holding a victim it cannot attack another figure. A victim which is dragged into the surchur’s mouth will take 2-8 points of damage per round from the digestive juices until the victim or the monster is dead.




2d4 acid damage?



> A surchur cannot put more than one victim in its mouth at one time. However, it prefers fresh food if it has a choice. A second victim can be grabbed and held while the first is in the mouth. When the tentacles have immobilized another victim, the first one will be expelled from the mouth cavity even if it isn’t dead, and the new victim will be engulfed instead.




So improved grab, and maybe something similar to the Multigrab feat?



> If the surchur does not succeed in grabbing a victim, it will still do damage to an adversary within range of its tentacles by hitting with the tentacles themselves. A surchur which is not injured will be able to effectively attack with a bunch of five tentacles at once, with each tentacle considered to do 1-4 points of damage on a successful hit. Any blow which is aimed at a tentacle, hits it, and does at least 3 points of damage will sever a tentacle.




Never mind the "cluster attack" idea above.  

It looks like we'll be able to once again use the severing text.



> A surchur’s lost tentacles will grow back in 3-6 days.






> A surchur with fewer than 5 tentacles intact will do correspondingly less damage from a strike, and a surchur with fewer than 4 tentacles will not keep its grip on a victim as easily; the chance to escape per round is increased to 60% against a surchur with 4 tentacles, +10% for every tentacle less than four.




We can borrow the mechanic from the illithid.


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## freyar (Sep 25, 2008)

Shade said:


> Extended reach with tentacles?



Absolutely!



> Single, cluster attack or 5 individual attacks at 1d4 damage each?



I think I prefer a single attack w/Imp Grab and Constrict (Constrict damage done even on first grapple check).



> Drag mechanic like cave fisher?



Maybe.  Or maybe just two grapple checks to swallow?



> 2d4 acid damage?



Yes.



> So improved grab, and maybe something similar to the Multigrab feat?



Oooh, what's Multigrab?  (I'm gonna feel silly if it's in Lords of Madness.)



> Never mind the "cluster attack" idea above.
> 
> It looks like we'll be able to once again use the severing text.
> 
> We can borrow the mechanic from the illithid.



Yes, you're right.  So multiple tentacle attacks, Imp Grab, I think Constrict, some sort of modified Swallow Whole.  Sound right?


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## Shade (Sep 25, 2008)

Multigrab is a feat from Serpent Kingdoms, and prior to that, Savage Species.

"Benefit: When grappling an opponent with the part of your body that made the attack, you take only a -10 penalty on grapple checks made to maintain the hold."

There's also Greater Multigrab:

"Benefit: When grappling an opponent with only the part of your body that made the attack, you take no penalty on grapple checks to maintain the hold."


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## freyar (Sep 26, 2008)

Maybe a reduce the penalty for each tentacle it uses to grab?


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## Shade (Sep 26, 2008)

Updated.

Does that work?


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## freyar (Sep 28, 2008)

Looks good.  Should we mention the usual -20 penalty for holding but not being considered grappled?


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## Shade (Sep 29, 2008)

Sure.  Do we want to keep that penalty, or let it bypass that as well?


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## freyar (Sep 29, 2008)

I think I'm fine with keeping the penalty -- attaching additional tentacles is a way around that.  Or we could reduce it to -10, like multigrab.  I think I'd lean toward what we have now, though.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Sep 30, 2008)

Sure, we can stick with what we've got.

Skills: 8

Feats: 2 

Treasure: x
It has U, V, W, Z...

U:
10-80 gems: 90%
5-30 jewelry: 80%
Maps or Magic Items: 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%

V:
Maps or Magic Items: 2 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 85%

W:
5-30 1,000s of gold pieces: 60%
1-8 100s of platinum pieces: 15%
10-80 gems: 60%
5-40 jewelry: 50%
Maps or Magic Items: 1 map: 55%

X:
Maps or Magic Items: 1 misc. magic plus 1 potion: 60%

Advancement: x

A surchur is 9 to 10 feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Surchurs cannot speak, but understand Undercommon?


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Uhh, max Spot?

I'm thinking Power Attack for one feat.  Maybe something "exotic" like Stand Still from the psionics section for the other.

Ummm, does that seem like standard treasure?  Seems like a bit of a mess.

6-9 HD (Large), 10-20 HD (Huge)?

1000 lb?

Language looks good.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

Stand Still is a great idea!  

Updated.

CR 3?  (And thus, spell resistance 10)


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Yes, and it appears done at that.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

*Wailing Wights*

A few priests hired by Acererak to consecrate his new temple also found their unfortunate way into the mass grave of Acererak's treachery. In the fullness of time, two animated to form undead creatures whose abilities combine the ill attributes of wights and banshees; the screaming wail of these two former priests (hereafter referred to as wailing wights) has the power to temporarily drain life energy levels from living creatures within earshot! 

A wailing wight can scream once every round--all who hear must make a save vs. spells or be drained of one experience level.  Assuming a victim is still alive after an encounter with these creatures, the stolen levels return at a rate of one level per turn. The effects of the scream are cumulative, and those who are drained to 0 level are slain, doomed to rise again as a standard wight. Note that there are some similarities between wailing wights and what some arcane texts refer to as agarats; however, unlike agarats, the touch of a wailing wight inflicts permanent level drain in the same manner as a standard wight.

One of the two wailing wights constantly wanders the Undertomb, giving vent to its misery in a howl of pure pain; explorers have a 20% chance to encounter this wandering undead for every three turns they spend within the Undertomb. The other is always found at the side of Moghadam in his lair.

Wailing Wights (2): AC 0; MV 12; HD 8 + 6; hp 56,70; THAC0 12; #AT 1; Dmg 1d6; SA Touch causes permanent energy drain, scream causes temporary energy drain; SD Hit only by +2 or better magical weapons; immune to charm, hold, sleep, cold, poison and death magic, turns as special undead; SZ M (6' tall); ML Elite (14); Int Average (9); AL LE; XP 3,000.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #249 (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

Enervation seems to have the sort of "temporary negative level" mechanic we're looking for.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

Good idea!

Something like this?

If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels.

Wail (Su):  As a standard action, a wailing wight can unleash a screaming wail.  All creatures within x feet that can hear the wailing must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or gain 1 negative level.  If the subject has at least as many negative levels as HD, it dies. Each negative level gives a creature a –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack.

Assuming the subject survives, it regains one lost level per hour. Usually, negative levels have a chance of permanently draining the victim’s levels, but the negative levels from the wail don’t last long enough to do so.

An undead creature that hears the wail gains 1d4x5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

And borrowing from the standard wight...

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid slain by a wailing wight becomes a wight in 1d4 rounds. Spawn are under the command of the wailing wight that created them and remain enslaved until its death. They do not possess any of the abilities they had in life.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a wailing wight’s slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is x for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the wailing wight gains 5 temporary hit points.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

I don't think we should keep it 1d4 negative levels from the wail... but I do like it giving undead temporary HP.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Oops!  That line was a leftover cut'n'paste remnant.  It should be 1 negative level.

Compared to 2e wights, these have:

4 more HD 
5 better AC
1 higher damage die
Better plus weapon needed to hit


3e Wight ability scores:  Str 12, Dex 12, Con —, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 15

Maybe boost Dex by 4, nat armor by 3, to account for the additional AC?

Int is the same, so I'd leave that and Wis unchanged.  Maybe boost Cha a bit?

Raise slam damage to d6?

3e wights have no DR.  How about adding 5/silver?   Wights used to require a silver or magic weapon to hit them.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 3, 2008)

Boost AC and Charisma, give them DR/silver, increase slam damage all sound good. I like these guys!


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Do we want to retain the wight's +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks?  I'm thinking that it is a bit counter to their nature.

Skills: 44
Wights have Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

Feats: 3
Wights have Alertness, Blind-Fight


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## freyar (Oct 3, 2008)

Let's drop the racial Move Silently bonus and swap the Move Silently ranks for Tumble, since they're relatively dexterous.

Could do Ability Focus (wail) for the last feat, but that might be kind of tough.  Weapon Focus (slam) might also work.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 5?  The 4 additional HD are worth a CR increase alone, and the wail seems worthy of another bump.

Advancement: 9-16 HD (Medium)?

Create undead or create greater undead needed for creation?  (Oddly, wights are on neither list).

Wail (Su): As a standard action, a wailing wight can unleash a screaming wail. All creatures *within x feet *that can hear the wailing must


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2008)

I'm good with CR 5. 

60ft for the range of the wail? 30?


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Let's go with 30 feet since it is quite potent.

Thoughts on the create undead vs. create greater undead?


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## freyar (Oct 6, 2008)

With the exception of the devourer, create undead is corporeal and create greater is incorporeal.  So maybe create undead at CL 15th like a mummy?  That's the same CR and HD.  

I still find it silly how high level you have to be to create some of these undead...


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Well spotted.  We'll go with that.

Updated.

Are we finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 6, 2008)

It looks like it to me.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Yeah, put another one on the pile.


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

*Web-spectre*
Climate/Terrain: Temperate to tropical
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any (usually night)
Diet: Nil
Intelligence: Very
Treasure: U
Alignment: Neutral evil
No. Appearing: 1
AC: 8
Movement: 12
Hit Dice: 6
THAC0: 15
No. of Attacks: 2 or 1
Damage/Attack: 1-4/1-4 or special
Special Attacks: Spiders (see below)
Special Defenses: See below
Magic Resistance: See below
Size; M
Morale: Elite (13-14)

Some evil wizards of 6th level or higher prepare themselves before death to become web-spectres.  The process takes one year per level, and the would-be spectre must arrange to have himself interred after death in an underground chamber, sitting or standing in a lifelike pose.  Any treasure the spectre possesses is found here.

A web-spectre appears as a humanoid mass of spider webs, dirty from collected dust and grit, complete with a colony of 30-120 (3d4 x 10) spiders living in its body.  Unlike some species of undead, it can shamble about in broad daylight.  A particularly daring spectre can even pass for a human, if it is fully clothed and wears gloves and head-covering gear.

Combat:  The web-spectre hits with its malformed fists for 1-4 hp damage, or it can opt to grab instead.  A grab counts as an attack but inflicts no damage.  Instead, the spectre releases 3-18 spiders onto the victim.  The spiders are small (AC 10, 1 hp, THACO 20, Dmg 1 hp), but their numbers can overwhelm a character.

The web-spectre is silent and stealthy. Opponents suffer a -3 penalty to surprise rolls (1-8 on 1d10). It can cast wizard spells at the same level it knew in life.  It can teleport without error twice per day, appearing in the most unexpected places, such as stairways, cupboards, and attics.  It is immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based spells.  It is immune to poisons and paralyzation.  It can be turned as a spectre, and a splash of holy water inflicts 2-8 hp damage upon it.  It can be hit by ordinary weapons, and fire causes double damage to the creature.  However, it can absorb any spider webbing within a hundred-yard radius to repair its body, at a rate of 2 hp per round.  (There are few places on the Prime Material Plane totally free of cobwebs; even a grassy meadow is inhabited by thousands of tiny spiders.)  Any one area becomes depleted of webbing in 2d6 rounds (longer in well-webbed places like crypts and dungeons), so a spectre tries to end a conflict quickly, or at least shift the battle to a new location when hard pressed.

If reduced to 0 hit points, the web-spectre's unnatural life-force can sometimes (75%) abandon its matted silk body and create another one elsewhere.  To prevent this, a remove curse, abjure, or similar spell must be cast on the tattered remains.

Habitat/Society: A web-spectre is essentially a minor form of lich, and this form of quasi-immortality is sometimes chosen by mages who are not powerful enough to become true liches.  They are normally solitary beings, but web-spectres will make contact with wizards, liches, and other charaters in attempts to gain new spells or other knowledge.  They do not actively seek to destroy life as do many undead creatures, but they are easily angered and seek revenge on any character they perceive as having wronged them.

Ecology:  Like all forms of undead, web-spectres have no place in nature.  They have a special rapport with arachnids, and sometimes they employ monstrous spiders as guards.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #252 (1998).


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

I'd say this one has to be a template, and I'd open it to anyone with arcane caster level 6+.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 8, 2008)

Adhesive, cohabitant with a number of spider swarms?


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Agreed to all those points.

Should we begin by reverse-engineering the lich template, since it is a "minor lich"?


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

We could, but I'm not sure how much work that will save us, since the SAs are quite different.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Yeah, you're probably right.

Should the number of spider swarms be based upon HD of the web-spectre?   Should they only be released while grappling?



> The web-spectre is silent and stealthy. Opponents suffer a -3 penalty to surprise rolls (1-8 on 1d10).




Racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks?  Improved Initiative as a bonus feat?



> It can teleport without error twice per day, appearing in the most unexpected places, such as stairways, cupboards, and attics.




Greater teleport as 2/day SLA?  Caster level equal HD?



> It is immune to sleep, charm, hold, and cold-based spells. It is immune to poisons and paralyzation.






> It can be hit by ordinary weapons, and fire causes double damage to the creature.




Immunity to cold and vulnerability to fire.  Simplify to cold subtype?



> It can be turned as a spectre




That equates to +2 turn resistance.


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## GrayLinnorm (Oct 8, 2008)

I'd say no to the cold subtype, since it doesn't have cold based abilities or dwell in arctic conditions


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> I'd say no to the cold subtype, since it doesn't have cold based abilities or dwell in arctic conditions




Yeah, it felt a bit awkward.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 9, 2008)

No to cold subtype, but the rest of it sounds good.


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

Here's an attempt at one of the abilities...

Cohabitant Spider Swarm (Ex):  A web-spectre houses a number of spiders within its web-filled body.  While grappling an opponent, a web-spectre can release a spider swarm into its space which attacks its foe, but does not harm the web-spectre.  If the victim escapes the grapple, the spider swarm returns to the web-spectre on its next action.  While within the web-spectre's body, the swarm quickly replenishes, and is at full hit points when next released.  If the swarm is slain, the web-spectre can accumulate enough spiders with its web healing ability to replenish the swarm in x rounds.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

I'm not sure we actually have to make it act like a swarm. It could just do automatic damage plus poison to anything it grapples, and make the hundreds of surging spiders more flavor-text than anything else.


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## freyar (Oct 11, 2008)

Yeah, I agree with demiurge on this.  Maybe

Cohabitant Spider Swarm (Ex): A web-spectre houses a number of spiders within its web-filled body. While grappling an opponent, a web-spectre releases these spiders its space to attack its foe. The spiders do 1d6 damage plus poison (injury, 1d3 Str, 1d3 Str, Fortitude save is Charisma-based) each round that the victim is grappled. If the victim escapes the grapple, the spiders return to the web-spectre immediately.

Damage and poison about right or too much?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

Looks good.

For the web healing, should it work like a mephit's fast healing (conditional fast healing)?  For example...

Fast Healing (Ex): A fire mephit heals only if it is touching a flame at least as large as a torch.

Fast Healing (Ex): A dust mephit heals only if in an arid, dusty environment.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

Conditional fast healing strikes me as right.


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## freyar (Oct 14, 2008)

I also agree with conditional fast healing.  We could also give some guidelines as to when there are cobwebs around: indefinitely underground, 2d6 rounds in a clean building or a field, 3d6 rounds in a forest (or something).


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Something like this?

Web Healing (Ex): A web-spectre absorbs nearby spider webbing and cobwebs to repair its own body.  As a result, it has fast healing 2, but it heals only if in an area with webs present.  As a general rule, this allows it to utilize its fast healing indefinitely underground, 3d6 rounds in a forest, and 2d6 rounds in a clean building or a field.  Areas with monstrous spiders present or otherwise spider-dominant (such as the Demonweb) would also allow indefinite healing, while an area where spiders cannot exist (such as in a vacuum or underwater) would prevent any such healing.  The DM should excercise judgement for other situations.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

I think that gets it just right.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Updated.

Demiurge mentioned an adhesive ability upthread.   Were you thinking something like that we gave the arucha?



> Adhesive (Ex): An arucha exudes a sticky slime that holds fast any creature or item touching it. It automatically grapples any creature it hits with its slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the ooze is alive. The ooze makes one additional slam attack each round against any creature stuck to it.
> 
> A weapon that strikes an arucha sticks fast unless the wielder makes a DC 20 Reflex save. A successful DC 20 Strength check is needed to pry it off. The save and check DCs are both Constitution-based and include a +4 racial bonus.
> 
> The adhesive can be weakened by alcohol, but even in such a case the ooze gets a +4 bonus on grapple checks (for a total bonus of +9). The substance breaks down 5 rounds after the ooze dies.




Or would a simple racial bonus on grapple checks suffice?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

I was thinking something like what you mentioned in the quote box, Shade.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Let's give it a +4 racial bonus to grapple checks due to the stickiness of its web body.  Edit: I just saw demiurge's reply above.  It's not a big deal to me either way, but is there something in the original text that suggests that kind of ability?  

Need a rejuvenation ability.  Modifying from the ghost:

Rejuvenation (Su): In most cases, it’s difficult to destroy a web-spectre through simple combat: The “destroyed” web-spectre will often restore itself in 1d10 days. A web-spectre that would otherwise be destroyed returns to unlife with a successful level check (1d20 + HD) against DC 16. A remove curse, break enchantment, or similar magic cast on the web-spectre's remains will prevent this rejuvenation if it has not already taken place.

I took the rejuvenation time from the lich and the level check mechanic (rather than a straight 75%) from the gost for uniformity.  But I'm open to changing that.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Rejuvenation looks good.

The farastu's adhesive looks more appropriate...



> Adhesive Slime (Ex): The thick, tarlike slime that farstus secrete acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast creatures or items that touch it. Farastus have a +8 racial bonus on grapple checks and disarm checks due to their adhesive slime. A farastu frequently chooses to grapple its foes and then maul its enemies with natural attacks.
> 
> A weapon that strikes a farastu is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a Reflex save (DC 17). Prying off a stuck weapon requires a Strength check (DC 17). The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> Lantern oil or some other flammable oil (such as alchemist's fire) dissolves the farstu's adhesive slime; the creature requires 10 minutes to renew its adhesive coating if doused with oil. A farastu can dissolve its adhesive slime at will, and the substance breaks down 1 minute after the creature dies.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2008)

Agreed to faratsu adhesion.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Fine with me also, though we need to remember to switch to Cha-based.  Let's reduce the grapple bonus to +4, since I don't see these being quite as sticky.

BTW, am I missing something, or are we adding an ability for flavor here?


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

freyar said:


> BTW, am I missing something, or are we adding an ability for flavor here?




Yep.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate and warm forests and underground?

Organization: Solitary or x (web-spectre plus x monstrous spiders of assorted sizes)?

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +x.

Treasure: Standard coins; double goods; double items?  (Same as lich)

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +x.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Environment seems good.
Could go with colony (like monstrous spider, aranea) or troupe (like ettercap) for the group.  I'd say 2d6 spiders, maybe an ettercap too.
Probably CR +2, maybe CR +1.
Treasure sounds right.  This should be a lowish level big bad, I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 20, 2008)

I say CR +2. Not quite as good as a lich, but there's the greater teleport...

Oh, and you missed a "farastus" in the copy-paste of the adhesive text.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

freyar said:


> Could go with colony (like monstrous spider, aranea) or troupe (like ettercap) for the group.  I'd say 2d6 spiders, maybe an ettercap too.




Why not both?

Solitary, colony (web-spectre plus 2-12 monstrous spiders of assorted sizes), or troupe (web-spectre plus 1-2 ettercaps plus 2-12 monstrous spiders of assorted sizes)


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

I like that.  Ettercaps seem like decent henchmen for these.


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Updated.

Suggested sample creature?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

What about a 6th level elf wizard?


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

Sounds good.  Here we go...

6th-level elven wizard
Medium Humanoid (elf) 
Hit Dice: 6d4-6 (9 hp) 
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares) 
Armor Class: 12 (+2 Dex), touch 12, flat-footed 10
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+3
Attack: Weapon +3 melee (x) 
Full Attack: Weapon +3 melee (x)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Spells 
Special Qualities: Elf traits, low-light vision, summon familiar
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +4, Will +6
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 14, Con 8, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 13
Skills: 38 (note: Int increased at 4th-level)
Feats: Scribe Scroll (B), 3 more and 1 wizard bonus feat
Environment: Any 
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 6
Treasure: x
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: By character class 
Level Adjustment: +0

Wizard Spells Prepared: (CL 6th; +12 ranged touch) 
3rd—3; 
2nd—4; 
1st—4; 
0—4.


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Quarterstaff seems like a good weapon.

Feats: Brew Potion, Improved Counterspell, Spell Mastery, Extend Spell?

Skills: Concentration 9, Knowledge (arcana) 9, Spellcraft 9, Knowledge (nature) 6, Spot 5?

Should we maybe give these a bonus on Climb checks or a Climb speed?

0 - read magic, detect magic, prestidigitation, touch of fatigue
1 - cause fear, ray of enfeeblement, unseen servant, protection from good?
2 - summon swarm, fog cloud, blindness/deafness, ghoul touch
3 - vampiric touch, summon monster III, hold person


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## Shade (Oct 20, 2008)

I like all that.



freyar said:


> Should we maybe give these a bonus on Climb checks or a Climb speed?




Good idea.  Preferences?


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## freyar (Oct 20, 2008)

Maybe a 10 ft Climb speed if everyone agrees.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

20 foot Climb speed. And let's replace cause fear with mage armor.


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> 20 foot Climb speed. And let's replace cause fear with mage armor.



Works for me.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Updated.



freyar said:


> Skills: Concentration 9, Knowledge (arcana) 9, Spellcraft 9, Knowledge (nature) 6, Spot 5?




Spot is cross-class for wizards, so we'll need to either poach ranks from elsewhere or reassign the Spot ranks.

Do we need to note which spells are mastered with the Spell Mastery feat?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

Hmmm, let's drop Spot and either go with Knowledge (religion) (since it is undead after all) or some Craft useful for a future item creation feat.

That's the way I read Spell Mastery.  Let's say our web-spectre took Spell Mastery after increasing Int, so maybe unseen servant, summon swarm, vampiric touch?


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Updated.

I think all that's left is any gear we might give it.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 21, 2008)

Sorry, but I'm not seeing unseen servant as being important enough to cast when your spellbook is lost. Ray of enfeeblement or mage armor would make the most sense to me.

Oh! We should also have it using its Extend Spell feat.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

Let's go with ray of enfeeblement.

Replace fog cloud with extended mage armor.  Anything else worth extending?


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## freyar (Oct 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sorry, but I'm not seeing unseen servant as being important enough to cast when your spellbook is lost. Ray of enfeeblement or mage armor would make the most sense to me.
> 
> Oh! We should also have it using its Extend Spell feat.



I guess you're right, but, if I were a semi-immortal spider-lich-thing, I wouldn't want to be without my incorporeal butler even for a day. 

Looking good.  Can extend spell work on summon swarm (concentration+2 rounds)?  Or we could swap summon monster III for extended summon monster II.


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## Shade (Oct 21, 2008)

freyar said:


> Can extend spell work on summon swarm (concentration+2 rounds)?




I don't think it can...



			
				Extend Spell said:
			
		

> A spell with a duration of concentration, instantaneous, or permanent is not affected by this feat.




Extended summon monster II will work, though.

Updated.

Wanna give it any potions or scrolls, since it has the item creation feats?   Any other magic items?


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## freyar (Oct 22, 2008)

Yeah, I was wondering if it could extend the +2 rounds part, but it seems like not.  Summon monster works, though; that's kind of what I was thinking of extending.

Yeah, with double items, there should be room for a few scrolls and potions.  (Darn it, why can't spells with a range of personal be potions??)  How about potions of Fox's Cunning and Gaseous Form, maybe Protection from Energy?


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Sounds good.

Scrolls of fly, haste, web, darkness, resist energy, and shield?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 22, 2008)

Good scrolls.


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## Shade (Oct 22, 2008)

Updated.   Finished?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

Looks good, I think.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 23, 2008)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

This next one looks like alot of fun.  

*Ice Mummy*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Mountain glacier
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: None
INTELLIGENCE: High to genius (11-18)
TREASURE: P (D)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVEMENT: 6
HIT DICE: 7
THAC0: 12
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-12 or by weapon type +1
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Fear, breath weapon, withering touch, spell use
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5’-6’)
MORALE: Champion (15)
XP VALUE: 4,000

Leathery, desiccated brown skin is drawn tight over the bones of an ice mummy. The hair and clothing remain intact but show the effects of centuries of entombment. The clothing and weapons are ancient, perhaps including a flint knife, a copper-bladed ax, a spear with a stone points, or arrows with obsidian heads. The eyes are sunken and opaque, though open and visible, filled with a blank hatred. The ice mummy’s mouth is agape in an eternal scream.

Combat: The ice mummy is intelligent as well as cunning. It creates false trails to lead travelers onto fragile snow bridges over crevasses. The only warning of its attack may be the brief glimpse of a figure traveling through the fog on a glacier. When the figure staggers and falls, travelers may go to its aid, only to stumble into its ambush. The ice mummy seldom fights at a disadvantage.  When it has its intended victims isolated, it strikes. If the fear it generates has not sent all of the ice mummy’s prey into a trap, it uses magic or resorts to its breath weapon, a cone of cold that blasts from the hideous, gaping mouth. It then moves away to wait for the cumulative effects of the magical cold and the natural cold to take their toll. If any brave souls are still able to pursue, so much the better.  

Although ice mummies are so rare that one can spend a lifetime traveling the high mountains and never encounter one outside of old songs and stories, most of them have the power to work magic as a 9th-level wizard, except that the mummy can employ only spells of 3rd level or lower. Furthermore, ice mummies can never use spells that involve fire as a weapon.  Thus, an ice mummy can cast affect normal fires to reduce the campfire lit by a group of travelers, but the monster cannot cast a fireball spell to attack them. Ice mummies are known to use the following unique spells as well as those commonly employed by human wizards: slippery slope, ice shatter, and call blizzard.

If forced into melee combat, an ice mummy uses weapons.  Its inhuman strength lends a +1 bonus both to THAC0 and to damage rolls. Missile weapons used by an ice mummy, usually barbed arrows, also enjoy a +1 THAC0 bonus and also cause 2 hp damage for each round they remain embedded in the victim, because of the supernatural cold with which they are imbued. Removing the barbed arrow of an ice mummy without the help of a character with the healing proficiency inflicts an additional 1d6 hp damage. A dispel magic, limited wish, or wish spell negates the chill effect completely.

If encountered without weapons, an ice mummy can strike for 1d12 hp damage with its cold fists, which also cause damage as per a staff of withering. Three times a day, an ice mummy can breath a blast of cold that inflicts 4d6 hp damage to all within its area of effect, a 20’ long cone that is 10’ wide at its base.

The supernatural cold exuded by an ice mummy numbs all warm-blooded creatures that come within 25’ of the creature.  Non-magical weapons used against the creature must save vs. crushing blow each time they hit the creature or freeze so cold that they shatter. Additionally, those who remain within 25’ of the ice mummy suffer 1d3 hp damage per round from severe frostbite. Finally, ice mummies cause fear as do normal mummies.

Ecology: Ice mummies are the freeze-dried remains of travelers who lost their way in the icy wastes of the mountains.  Bitter and afraid, they died alone, hating those who never came to their rescue. At every opportunity, they seek to punish those who mock their demise by traveling the same dangerous terrain that once ruined them.

New Spells

_Slippery Slope_
(Conjuration/Alteration)
Level 3
Range: 60 yds.
Components: S, M
Duration: 1 day
Casting Time: 2 rounds
Area of Effect: Up to 500 square feet
Saving Throw: None
This spell creates a slick layer of glare ice over the natural surface of snow, ice, or rock. The glare ice coating makes even rough-looking surfaces very slick.  Anyone traversing the affected area must make Dexterity checks at a -4 to move at half normal movement rate. Trying to move faster incurs a -8 penalty, and attempts at running (moving faster than the full normal movement rate) causes an automatic fall. Characters employing a spider climb spell can move normally across this surface. Those standing on a slope upon which this spell is cast hurtle down automatically. 
The material component for slippery slope is the mummy’s talisman or tattoo.

_Ice Shatter_
(Alteration)
Level 3
Range: 10 yds./level
Components: S, M
Duration: Instant
Casting Time: 4 rounds
Area of Effect: 3 square feet/level
Saving Throw: None
By means of this spell, the caster can cause glacier ice to crack and break. The solid ice may split along a single crack or splinter into hundreds of dagger-sharp fragments, at the caster’s option. In hard-packed snow, like that which forms bridges across crevasses, the area of effect is tripled. The spell can also be used to start avalanches in areas where there are unstable masses of snow on slopes above the glacier.

If the spell is used to shatter the ice rather than crack it, it can make a trail or path impassable. It can also provide the caster with icy spikes perfect for lining the bottom of a pitfall.

The material component for ice shatter is the mummy’s talisman or tattoo.

_Call Blizzard_
(Conjuration/Alteration)
Level 3
Range: 0
Components: S, M
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 1 turn
Area of Effect: Special
Saving Throw: None
This spell can be cast only on a glacier or a similarly vast expanse of ice, such as a huge iceberg. Call blizzard allows the caster to use the unique micro-climate of the glacier to attack its enemies. Even in summer, it is possible to have wintery conditions on mountain glaciers and similar terrain. This spell generates high winds that drive frozen precipitation in a blinding storm that makes travel virtually impossible. Windchill effects make the temperatures seem even lower than they already are, and the powerful gusts make walking difficult.

After the spell is cast, the blizzard arrives in 1d6 hours. The spell can be interrupted only during the actual casting period, not between the casting and the blizzards arrival. Signs of the ensuing change in the weather are visible any time after the first hour. Once summoned, the blizzard cannot be dispelled by anything less than a control weather or wish spell. The blizzard affects the entire area of the glacier.

In warmer seasons, the blizzard is composed of sleet lasting 1d4+1 hours, soaking the clothing of travelers and coating the glacier in a sheath of slippery, wet ice. The soaking effect of the sleet ruins the insulative effect of the victim’s clothing, bringing on hypothermia if a fire and dry clothing are not found within two hours. Hypothermia causes a loss of coordination represented by a loss of 1d4+1 points of Dexterity and requires a successful Constitution check each turn until warmth and shelter are found for the victim to remain conscious. Once unconscious, a victim dies within a number of hours equal to half the victim’s Constitution (rounded up).

In fall and spring, there is a 50% chance of sleet and a 50% chance of a true snow blizzard, either of which lasts 1d6+6 hours. In winter, the spell always causes a snow blizzard that lasts for 2d10+4 hours. Vision is reduced to 10’, and victims must make a successful Intelligence check each round to stay on course when traveling. Movement is reduced to one-third normal, and after four hours, each character in the blizzard must make a successful Constitution check to avoid hypothermia, as described above.

Exhaustion caused by walking through the powerful blizzard winds sets in after four hours of travel. Afterward, characters must make a successful Constitution check each with a cumulative -1 penalty per hour. Thus, on the fifth hour of travel, the check is at -2, on the sixth -4, and so on. Once exhausted, characters cannot erect a shelter or build a fire.

The high wind-chill factor during a blizzard adds another peril: frostbite. This freezes exposed skin and extremities, so noses and ears are especially vulnerable as well as fingers and toes.  Frostbite may occur after one hour of trying to move about in the blizzard. Roll 1d4 to determine whether a character suffers frostbite. A roll of “1” indicates that superficial frostbite has occurred. If the victim is not informed by a companion that his skin is beginning to turn pale, there is a 50% chance that he notices the frostbite himself. If not treated, superficial frostbite becomes serious in one hour. If not treated for a second hour, serious frostbite turns to extreme frostbite.

Superficial frostbite heals in 1d4 weeks. It is painful and causes unpleasant hardening and breaking of the affected skin, but it causes no damage. A cure light wounds spell eases the ‘discomfort and heals the visible damage.

Serious frostbite takes 1d4 weeks to heal naturally, and it is more painful and unpleasant-looking than superficial frostbite. Victims suffer a temporary loss of 1d2+1 points of Charisma until the condition is healed naturally or by a cure serious wounds or more powerful healing spell.

Extreme frostbite has the above effects and has penetrated far enough to cause the loss of the affected portion of the body. At the DM’s discretion, the victim may lose one or more toes and or fingers, one or both ears, or even his nose. Frost-bitten fingers cannot, of course, perform fine tasks such as untying knots or making spell gestures. Only a regeneration or more powerful healing spell can cure extreme frostbite.

The material component for call blizzard is the mummy’s talisman or tattoo.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #238 (1997).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 23, 2008)

Do we want to keep the thing where they cast as 9th level magic users, but only up to 3rd level spells? Or do we want to give them either 9th or 6th level casting?


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

6th level casting is closer to the HD and likely CR, so maybe that is better.  I'd like to give these energy substitution as a bonus feat, but doesn't seem to be in the SRD (?!?!).  Maybe we can just write an ability.  Also on the casting, want to go with sorc-like rather than wiz-like?

Cold aura.

Some sort of imbue arrows ability for the magic cold damage, or maybe they carry bows with the frost quality that lose their enchantment when separated from the ice mummy.  Should we write up barbed arrows as a new weapon?

I like these!  They remind me of the guy found in the Italian alps (and from the date, I suppose that's how the author came up with them).


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Do we want to keep the thing where they cast as 9th level magic users, but only up to 3rd level spells? Or do we want to give them either 9th or 6th level casting?






freyar said:


> 6th level casting is closer to the HD and likely CR, so maybe that is better.  I'd like to give these energy substitution as a bonus feat, but doesn't seem to be in the SRD (?!?!).  Maybe we can just write an ability.  Also on the casting, want to go with sorc-like rather than wiz-like?




I guess first we should decide if they are going to be a template or monster.  If a template, I could see either retaining existing spellcasting or granting spellcasting based on Hit Dice.  If a monster, I think I'd agree with leaning toward 6th-level spellcasting, or even just selecting appropriate SLAs.


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## freyar (Oct 23, 2008)

For some reason, they read like monsters to me, but I'm ok with template.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Monster, not template, is my vote as well. 

The barbs on the arrows should just be flavor-text, methinks.


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Hmmm, I could see doing a heal check to remove the arrows w/o causing damage.  (It would be weird, honestly, if there weren't barbed arrows in some source somewhere.)  But in any case, I think we need to get frost on the arrows or bows for sure.

demiurge, what did you think about spellcasting.  I'm leaning toward casting as inherent sorcerers, but I could be persuaded for SLAs.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Casting as inherent sorcerer is my pick as well.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

OK, so monster with 6th-level inherent sorcerer spellcasting?

Standard mummy abilities: Str 24, Dex 10, Con —, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 15

Comparing these fellas to 2e mummies, they actually have 1 more Hit Die, so should be 9 HD in 3.5 compared to the mummy's 8.

The 3e mummy has an Int score (6) equal to the middle of the 2e mummy's range (5-7), so maybe take the middle of the ice mummy's range, giving it Int 14 or 15?


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## freyar (Oct 24, 2008)

Int 14 is good.  Let's also boost Cha, maybe to 19?  Keeping physical stats the same as a standard mummy seems ok, though.


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## Shade (Oct 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Should we retain the standard mummy's vulnerablity to fire?  If so, give them cold subtype?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 24, 2008)

Ice mummies should have the cold subtype. And I vote for increasing their Dexterity, so they can actually use those bows of theirs.


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## freyar (Oct 26, 2008)

Good point.  Drop Str a little to compensate?  Maybe Str 20, Dex 18?

Cold subtype is good.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 27, 2008)

Agreed to dropping STR a bit.


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2008)

Good ideas.  Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

> Three times a day, an ice mummy can breath a blast of cold that inflicts 4d6 hp damage to all within its area of effect, a 20’ long cone that is 10’ wide at its base.




Breath Weapon (Su): 3x/day, 20 ft cone, 4d6 cold damage, DC 18 Reflex save half.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Withering Fists (Su): Any creature hit by an ice mummy's slam attacks must make a DC X Fortitude save or take 1d4 points of Strength and Constitution damage. On a critical hit, this damage is instead ability drain. The save DC is Charisma based.

Any reason we've stepped away from the original d12 of damage? Too powerful? These guys have enough powerful abilities that we might as well go whole-hog, give them unholy toughness and a high CR (8-9) to match.

Wow. I just realized I've recommended unholy toughness in my last three posts. Working on the undead will do that.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Any reason we've stepped away from the original d12 of damage? Too powerful?




Since they matched the traditional mummy in 2e with 1d12, I figured we'd retain the similarities.  If you guys want to jump to 1d12, though, that works for me.



demiurge1138 said:


> These guys have enough powerful abilities that we might as well go whole-hog, give them unholy toughness and a high CR (8-9) to match.
> 
> Wow. I just realized I've recommended unholy toughness in my last three posts. Working on the undead will do that.




Sure, I'm fine with that.  And I find myself doing the same thing.


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2008)

Other than the fact that d12s are underused, I think we should match the regular mummy.  But I agree with unholy toughness and a higher CR.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

Didn't know that about 2e mummies having d12 fists. So let's stick to 1d6.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2008)

> The supernatural cold exuded by an ice mummy numbs all warm-blooded creatures that come within 25’ of the creature. Non-magical weapons used against the creature must save vs. crushing blow each time they hit the creature or freeze so cold that they shatter. Additionally, those who remain within 25’ of the ice mummy suffer 1d3 hp damage per round from severe frostbite.




Cold Aura (Ex): Anyone within 25 feet of an ice mummy takes 1d3 points of cold damage per round from the extreme cold of its presence.

And perhaps we can borrow from this...

Frostbrittle (Su): Any weapon that strikes Cryonax has its hardness reduced by 5 for 10 rounds, thereby increasing the effectiveness of sunder attempts against the weapon. In addition, rolling a 1 on an attack with the targeted weapon causes it to take damage equivalent to the amount it would have dealt on a successful hit.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2008)

I like giving them frostbrittle.

Also, 25 feet and 1d3 seem like weird numbers. How about 20 feet and 1d4?


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

All those suggestions work for me.  Going with frostbrittle, we should make sure these get Improved Sunder.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Updated.

Let's get back to this...



> Missile weapons used by an ice mummy, usually barbed arrows, also enjoy a +1 THAC0 bonus and also cause 2 hp damage for each round they remain embedded in the victim, because of the supernatural cold with which they are imbued. Removing the barbed arrow of an ice mummy without the help of a character with the healing proficiency inflicts an additional 1d6 hp damage. A dispel magic, limited wish, or wish spell negates the chill effect completely.






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Some sort of imbue arrows ability for the magic cold damage, or maybe they carry bows with the frost quality that lose their enchantment when separated from the ice mummy. Should we write up barbed arrows as a new weapon?






			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Hmmm, I could see doing a heal check to remove the arrows w/o causing damage. (It would be weird, honestly, if there weren't barbed arrows in some source somewhere.) But in any case, I think we need to get frost on the arrows or bows for sure.




Here are a few barbed mechanics...

"A thin fishing line can be tied to the bolt, which, if yanked out of a victim, inflicts a further 1d4 points of damage."  (from fishing crossbow in Dungeon/Polyhedron #109)

"The harpooned creature can pull the harpoon from its wound if it has two free hands and takes a full-round action to do so, but it deals damage to itself equal to the initial damage the harpoon dealt. A character who succeeds on a DC 15 Heal check can remove a harpoon without further damage." (From harpoon in Frostburn, Races of Faerun, Stormwrack, and Sword & Fist)


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

Not quite on the topic at hand, but since the ice mummy has only one slam attack, it should get Str x 1.5 for its damage bonus.

I like the idea of the weapons having the frost enhancement in the hands of the ice mummy only. Not sure if I want them to keep doing cold damage every round they're lodged, but I like the "damage upon yanking out" mechanic from the harpoon.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2008)

Ok, two things here:

Frosty Bow (Su): Any bow or crossbow carried by an ice mummy functions as a frost weapon, so projectiles fired by it deal an extra 1d6 cold damage on a successful hit.  This is a supernatural ability of the ice mummy, not the bow.

Barbed arrows: Barbed arrows function as normal arrows, but they remain stuck in the wound.  A creature can pull a barbed arrow from a wound with two hands. This takes a full-round action to do so, but it deals damage to the victim equal to the initial piercing damage the arrow dealt. A character who succeeds on a DC 15 Heal check can remove a barbed arrow without further damage.

Want to reduce to a fixed number of hp for the barbed arrow?  I think in the past we've done things like 1d4 or 1d6.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2008)

Fantastic!



freyar said:


> Want to reduce to a fixed number of hp for the barbed arrow?  I think in the past we've done things like 1d4 or 1d6.




Nah, let's keep it the same.

Shall we address the spellcasting now?

Spells: An ice mummy casts spells as a 6th-level sorcerer.

Sorcerer Spells Known (6/7/6/4, save DC 14 + spell level): 
0—7; 
1st—4; 
2nd—2; 
3rd—1.

Do we want to convert the three unique spells, or make them SLAs?  Note that the ice mummy gets only one 3rd-level spell known, so each could only know one of the unique spells as written.  Of course, we could state that those three spells are always treated as spells known for ice mummies.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2008)

The call blizzard seems way too powerful for a 3rd level spell--it's basically a limited version of control weather, which is 7th!


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> The call blizzard seems way too powerful for a 3rd level spell--it's basically a limited version of control weather, which is 7th!



Thought so, too.  I think we should probably reduce the power somewhat but still end up with a slightly higher level spell than 3rd.  

Let's treat these as normal spells but say that advanced ice mummies pick up the ones they didn't know.  Maybe one of these could drop to 2nd level, not sure.

Questions: how will caster level advance w/HD, or are we going with character class advancement only?


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## Shade (Oct 30, 2008)

freyar said:


> Thought so, too.  I think we should probably reduce the power somewhat but still end up with a slightly higher level spell than 3rd.




Alternatively, we could give them the ability to call a blizzard as a spell-like ability 1/week or somesuch.



freyar said:


> Questions: how will caster level advance w/HD, or are we going with character class advancement only?




Good question.  Since mummies advance by Hit Dice, I think we should allow for both.  Maybe caster level equals Hit Dice -3?  Alternatively, we could improve caster level ever 4 HD to coincide with CR increase.


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## freyar (Oct 30, 2008)

Either way we go with the blizzard, we need to simplify.  Use the SRD blizzard for effects?

Let's say one CL per 4HD and stacking with sorc levels of course.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 30, 2008)

I like caster level improving every 4 HD, and I like the ability to call a blizzard 1/week.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Blizzard SLA 1/week is good by me, but let's convert the other 2 spells.


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## Shade (Oct 31, 2008)

Sounds like a plan.



> Slippery Slope
> (Conjuration/Alteration)
> Level 3
> Range: 60 yds.
> ...




Getting started...

Slippery Slope
Conjuration (Creation) [Cold]
Level: Sor/Wiz 3?
Components: S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: x
Duration: 1 day
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Slippery slope covers terrain with a slick layer of glare ice.  Characters walking on ice must spend 2 squares of movement to enter a square covered by ice, and the DC for Balance and Tumble checks increases by +5.

Material Component: An ice mummy’s talisman or tattoo.


I just borrowed the typical terrain effects for ice.  Should it do more?

For the effect, do we want to make it a number of 10-foot squares/level, similar to wall of ice or wall of force?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2008)

It appears that it causes people to fall down, even though it only barely mentions that. So it should be like grease, only making the resulting area also difficult terrain.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

Let's at least also put in "A DC 10 Balance check is required to run or charge across an ice sheet."  Maybe also "A character standing in the area of the ice when it is created must immediately make a Balance check or fall prone.  The DC of the check is equal to the spell's DC."

1 10ft square/level?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2008)

Sure. Should we also give the ice mummy some sort of icewalking ability?


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> Sure. Should we also give the ice mummy some sort of icewalking ability?



That only makes sense.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2008)

Updated.


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## freyar (Nov 4, 2008)

These spells all have the ice mummy's talisman or tatoo as a focus, but I didn't see anything about a talisman or tatoo in the original text.  Want to write up something for that?



> Ice Shatter
> (Alteration)
> Level 3
> Range: 10 yds./level
> ...



This next?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2008)

Yes on both counts.

Here are the rules for avalanches:



> Avalanches (CR 7)
> The combination of high peaks and heavy snowfalls means that avalanches are a deadly peril in many mountainous areas. While avalanches of snow and ice are common, it’s also possible to have an avalanche of rock and soil.
> 
> An avalanche can be spotted from as far away as 1d10×500 feet downslope by a character who makes a DC 20 Spot check, treating the avalanche as a Colossal creature. If all characters fail their Spot checks to determine the encounter distance, the avalanche moves closer to them, and they automatically become aware of it when it closes to half the original distance. It’s possible to hear an avalanche coming even if you can’t see it. Under optimum conditions (no other loud noises occurring), a character who makes a DC 15 Listen check can hear the avalanche or landslide when it is 1d6×500 feet away. This check might have a DC of 20, 25, or higher in conditions where hearing is difficult (such as in the middle of a thunderstorm).
> ...


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2008)

Hmmm, I'm not sure if causing an avalanche is a little too powerful for a 3rd level spell.  Maybe a smaller or less deadly one?  Any thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 9, 2008)

A spell that creates an avalanche also seems too powerful for 3rd level! I think we should give it a similar SLA to form them, rather than convert ice shatter.

With the ability to make blizzards and avalanches, these guys are really quite strong, aren't they?


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## GrayLinnorm (Nov 9, 2008)

The avalancher (MMIII) is a CR 5 creature that can cause avalanches.  Most 5th level characters have access to 3rd level spells.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2008)

GrayLinnorm said:


> The avalancher (MMIII) is a CR 5 creature that can cause avalanches.  Most 5th level characters have access to 3rd level spells.



Good point, I didn't remember about the avalancher.  I think I'm ok with the spell, at least if we restrict the conditions that the spell can cause an avalanche a little.  Anyone else?


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## Shade (Nov 21, 2008)

An avalanche is only a CR 7 hazard, so it's probably about right for a creature of this power, no?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 21, 2008)

It still strikes me as a little over-the-top, but I think I can live with it.


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## freyar (Nov 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> It still strikes me as a little over-the-top, but I think I can live with it.



I'd generally agree, but perhaps we can build in some cost or special conditions to get the avalanche.  Hmmm.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2008)

After being away from this for a bit, I think I'd rather go the unique SLA route Demiurge suggested upthread rather than converting the spells.

Here's the avalancher's ability to use as a basis:

Cause Avalanche (Su): Three times per day, an avalancher can let loose a low, rumbling noise that causes avalanches. This avalanche originates within 30 feet of the avalancher and must take place on terrain that has both loose rock and a significant slope (DM's discretion). The avalanche moves down a 45-degree slope at a speed of 30 feet per round (slower on a gentler slope, faster on a steeper one). It spreads outward in a cone, dealing 2d6 points of damage to anyone caught in its path (DC 15 Reflex half). Creatures that fail this save must make a DC 20 Reflex save or become buried beneath the rocks. Buried characters take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute. If a buried character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage every minute thereafter until freed or dead.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2008)

This seems considerably tamer than a "garden variety" avalanche, just because it starts in a particular point.  It also doesn't have a bury zone, and it's a lot slower.  I'd say we adapt from the avalancher but simplify a little.  For example, maybe remove the second save; you either make the first save and take 1d6 or fail it and take 2d6 and get buried.  Or we can just simplfy more and say they act as normal avalanches but only have a slide zone.  What do you think?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 3, 2008)

I like 1 save for half damage and not buried.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

How much damage do you think?  2d6 or 3d6?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's go 2d6.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Attempted revision...

Create Avalanche (Su): x times per day, an ice mummy can let crack nearby snow and ice to create an avalanche. This avalanche originates within x feet of the ice mummy and must take place on terrain that has both snow or ice cover and a significant slope (DM's discretion). The avalanche moves down a 45-degree slope at a speed of 30 feet per round (slower on a gentler slope, faster on a steeper one). It spreads outward in a cone, dealing 2d6 points of damage to anyone caught in its path (DC x Reflex half).  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

And then buried?


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2008)

Let's just add the lines "Those who fail their saves are buried. Buried characters take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute. If a buried character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead." right after the Ref save for half.

Originates within 30 ft of the ice mummy?  Once per day?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Like so?

Create Avalanche (Su): Once per day, an ice mummy can crack nearby snow and ice to create an avalanche. This avalanche originates within 30 feet of the ice mummy and must take place on terrain that has both snow or ice cover and a significant slope (DM's discretion). The avalanche moves down a 45-degree slope at a speed of 30 feet per round (slower on a gentler slope, faster on a steeper one). It spreads outward in a cone, dealing 2d6 points of damage to anyone caught in its path (DC x Reflex half). Those who fail their saves are buried. Buried characters take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage per minute. If a buried character falls unconscious, he or she must make a DC 15 Constitution check or take 1d6 points of lethal damage each minute thereafter until freed or dead. The save DC is Charisma-based.

It seems like the origination point could be further than 30 feet, though.  How about 120 feet?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 4, 2008)

120 feet sounds good for origin point.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2008)

Updated.



> _Call Blizzard_
> (Conjuration/Alteration)
> Level 3
> Range: 0
> ...




We discussed upthread making this a 1/week SLA that is a limited version of the control weather spell.   How's this?

Call Blizzard (Sp):  Once per week, an ice mummy can create a blizzard.  This works exactly like the control weather spell (CL xth), except that it may only be used to create a blizzard.  This is the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2008)

All that works for me.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2008)

Updated.

Did we ever decide what to do with its "cold arrows"?

Also, any suggestions for flavor text for the "ice mummy’s talisman or tattoo" suggested upthread?


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2008)

Suggested the following upthread:

Frosty Bow (Su): Any bow or crossbow carried by an ice mummy functions as a frost weapon, so projectiles fired by it deal an extra 1d6 cold damage on a successful hit. This is a supernatural ability of the ice mummy, not the bow.

Barbed arrows: Barbed arrows function as normal arrows, but they remain stuck in the wound. A creature can pull a barbed arrow from a wound with two hands. This takes a full-round action to do so, but it deals damage to the victim equal to the initial piercing damage the arrow dealt. A character who succeeds on a DC 15 Heal check can remove a barbed arrow without further damage.


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## Shade (Dec 8, 2008)

D'oh!  I remember that now.  That works for me!  Updated.

Thoughts on the talisman and tattoo?


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## freyar (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't know about the talisman or tattoo.  (Though it should probably be a focus for the spell.)  It doesn't show up in the original text except for the spells.  We could say that it holds the key to the mummy's Blizzard and Avalanche abilities; perhaps someone who steals a talisman can use those abilities for 2 weeks?  Or we could just drop it.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 8, 2008)

Ditch talisman, give them the tattoo, which only works for the mummy. We could say, however, than they favor magical amulets as treasure.


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

We might as well drop the tattoo then, also, since I don't see anything to really do with it.  I like the treasure idea.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

OK, we'll drop the tattoo.  Suggested replacement material component for slippery slope?   Maybe a drop of white dragon blood?

I like the treasure suggestion as well.

Skills: 6 at 12 ranks
Mummy has Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot

Feats: 4
Mummy has Alertness, Great Fortitude, Toughness

Environment: Any cold?

Treasure: Standard coins standard goods, double items?

Alignment: Usually chaotic evil?

Advancement: 10–16 HD (Medium); 17–24 HD (Large) or by character class[This follows mummy progression, but adds class advancement for additional sorcerer levels]


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Full ranks in Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Concentration, Spellcraft


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.



> Combat: The ice mummy is intelligent as well as cunning. It creates false trails to lead travelers onto fragile snow bridges over crevasses. The only warning of its attack may be the brief glimpse of a figure traveling through the fog on a glacier. When the figure staggers and falls, travelers may go to its aid, only to stumble into its ambush.




Maybe pilfer a few ranks for Survival and Craft (trapmaking)?



> Furthermore, ice mummies can never use spells that involve fire as a weapon.  Thus, an ice mummy can cast affect normal fires to reduce the campfire lit by a group of travelers, but the monster cannot cast a fireball spell to attack them. Ice mummies are known to use the following unique spells as well as those commonly employed by human wizards: slippery slope, ice shatter, and call blizzard.




Sorcerer Spells Known (6/7/6/4, save DC 14 + spell level): 
0—7; 
1st—4; 
2nd—2; 
3rd—slippery slope.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Survival and Craft (trapmaking) are both good. And Spellcraft isn't very necessary.

2nd- minor image, pyrotechnics

1st- alarm, feather fall, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

That's all good.  How about these at 0th level: resistance, detect magic, daze, dancing lights, ray of frost, touch of fatigue, and ghost sound?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Those sound good.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

CR 8?

Caster level for call blizzard?


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## freyar (Dec 9, 2008)

CR 8 seems about right, maybe even CR 9 as these have a boatload of good abilities.

CL doesn't seem to affect control weather much, so maybe just CL 9 from the HD.

Should we put barbed arrows in the damage for the frost bow?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 9, 2008)

Let's go CR 8. They've got a lot of good abilities, but their actual to-hit isn't stellar. They're durable, but vulnerable to fire.


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## Shade (Dec 9, 2008)

Updated.

I mentioned barbed arrows in the tactics, rather than the damage line, since they don't deal extra damage initially.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> I mentioned barbed arrows in the tactics, rather than the damage line, since they don't deal extra damage initially.



Ah, I must have missed that before.  These look done!


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Whew!  That was a lenghty one.   This next request should go much, much faster.  

*Bug-a-boo*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Tribal
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivorous
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: Individuals J (C)
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 4-24
ARMOR CLASS: 7 (10)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 1 + 1
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Opponents have -2 on surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (5’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (11-12)
XP VALUE: 65

Bug-a-boos look like small and frail bugbears, and they are often mistaken for their larger kin, especially since they can often be found on the outskirts of bugbear territory. The 'boos live off whatever they are able to scavenge from bugbear activities.

If seven or more 'boos are encountered, it is 30% likely that they have a bugbear leader close by. Occasionally, 'boos may be taken in by a bugbear tribe and used as expendable front-line troops.

'Boos use whatever weapons are available, usually ones of inferior craftsmanship.

'Boos speak their own dialect of the bugbear tongue, which anyone who knows the latter language can understand. They get along well with other humanoids.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #158 (1990).


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Hmm, my first guess at physical stats would be similar to hobgoblins, but, after reading it again, I almost think these should be weaker and more dextrous (though this puts them in goblin territory).   Based on the Int, mental stats should probably be lower than those other humanoids, though.  Anyone else have some ideas?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Do we want them to have racial HD, or just advance by class levels?


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Well, there's not a single humanoid in the SRD with 1 racial HD, which is actually even a rule for the humanoid type now that I check.  So I guess these should be 1st level warriors.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Here are 2e hobgoblin stats for comparison...



> CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any non-arctic
> FREQUENCY: Uncommon
> ORGANIZATION: Tribal
> ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
> ...




It looks like they are basically shorter, slightly faster, hobgoblins, with the added "opponents have -2 on surprise" benefit.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Ok, give them hobgoblin physical stats and a racial Hide bonus?


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Comparing to their kin...

Goblin: –2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, –2 Charisma.. 
Hobgoblin: +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. 
Bugbear: +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.

All three have +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.  Goblin additionally has +4 racial bonus on Ride checks. 

Goblin and bugbear have favored class rogue, while hobgoblin is fighter.

Also note that 2e goblins and bugbears have Int Low to average (5-10).

So maybe...

+2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Intelligence
+4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks
Favored Class: Rogue (since they're scavengers)


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

Agreed to ability scores and racial bonuses on stealth-based skills.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Added to Homebrews, borrowing liberally from hobgoblin and bugbear.


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2008)

I'm thinking either Stealthy or Alertness for the feat.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 10, 2008)

I like Stealthy for the feat.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2008)

Agreed.  It only gets 4 skills, and their either from the warrior list or cross-class.


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## freyar (Dec 11, 2008)

Let's either put them cross-class into Hide or else all into Climb.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 11, 2008)

I like putting skills into Climb. Good mental image of these guys skulking in trees or on cliffs to shoot down at the unsuspecting.


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2008)

Updated.



> If seven or more 'boos are encountered, it is 30% likely that they have a bugbear leader close by. Occasionally, 'boos may be taken in by a bugbear tribe and used as expendable front-line troops.




Here's the bugbear Organization line...

Organization: Solitary, gang (2–4), or band (11–20 plus 150% noncombatants plus 2 2nd-level sergeants and 1 leader of 2nd–5th level)


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2008)

Let's just change the band organization to 11–20 plus 1-4 bugbears and add a tribe (20-30 plus 150% noncombatants plus 3 2nd-level sergeants and 1-6 bugbears up to 5th level).  Or something like that.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

Sounds good.  Updated.  Anything left?


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## freyar (Dec 16, 2008)

Looks done!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

I think we're done here. That was easy.


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## Shade (Dec 16, 2008)

*Gith Dog, Kaoulgrim (Canis astri)*
FREQUENCY Very rare 
NO. APPEARING: Varies with masters
ARMOR CLASS: 4 
MOVE: 15.//9”
HIT DICE: 5 + 5
% IN LAIR: Varies with masters
TREASURE TYPE: Nil 
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-12 
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hold 
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text 
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard 
INTELLIGENCE: Semi- 
ALIGNMENT! Neutral 
SIZE: M 
PSIONIC ABILITY: See text
Attack/Defense Modes: See text
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IV/225 + 6 per hp 

*Gith dogs*
In the years immediately following their emancipation from the illithids, or mindflayers, the followers of Gith (the githyanki and githzerai) acquired dogs from the Prime Material Plane and began to apply to them the same breeding techniques that they had so painfully learned from their former masters. The object of this project was to produce a breed of dog that would serve in a war of extermination on the illithid race. Great importance was attached to the production of these dogs, so much so that when the githyanki/githzerai split came, some called it the War of Dogs. The two factions had already diverged to the extent that they had separate breeding programs, and each side adopted the line it had bred as a symbol.

After the series of conflicts that sundered the two races forever, the githyanki and githzerai clans continued their breeding programs, each claiming to follow the precepts laid down by Gith, and each reviling the other’s perversion of doctrine.

Despite their long years of divergence, the two kinds of dogs have a number of features on common. Both have the senses of their canine ancestors, so that a gith dog gains a 20% bonus to its chances of detecting otherwise hidden creatures by scent, and a 20% bonus for its keen hearing (see page 60 of the DMG). These bonuses are cumulative where they are applicable, and either may be halved or doubled as conditions warrant. Gith dogs can also track as an onyx dog can (DMG, page 144). They gain a 50% bonus to their chances of detecting or tracking illithids by smell. In addition to this, gith dogs can see invisible, astral, and ethereal creatures and objects. Alert and silent, they surprise opponents on a 1-4 and are themselves surprised only on a 1.

Each gith dog has a latent degree of psionic power which can be tapped under certain conditions. The githyanki and githzerai magic-users have a spell similar to find familiar which they may cast either for themselves or for other individuals. A dog that is bound to a psionically endowed master by this spell may serve as a storehouse of psionic energy, holding up to 20 psionic strength points in the manner of an ioun stone (DMG, page 147). These are added to the master’s strength total and may be released to him or her so long as the dog remains within 12”.

The bond has several other effects as well within the 12” range. It allows telepathic communication between hound and master, including the transfer of sensory information. The canine member of the team is immune to mental attacks, including charm, confusion, sleep, and hold spells, as well as the effects of a psionic blast. If the master succumbs to psionic attack, though, the dog is also affected.  The two travel at the master’s rate on the Astral Plane, and the dog is included if its master so desires when the psionic disciplines of astral projection or psionic travel are exercised, or when the master projects onto the Prime Material Plane.  Beyond this 12’ range, either member of the team is aware of the direction (but not the distance) of the other, regardless of the separation between the two, as long as they are on the same plane. However, the stored ability points are not available to the master in this case. If the dog is killed, its master loses 40 psionic ability points immediately; if the score is reduced to a negative number, the master becomes comatose until a positive total is reached (strength points are regained in the normal ways).

When they encounter illithids or other psionically endowed foes, githyanki and githzerai send their dogs into physical combat while they batter down the psionic defenses of the foe. Gith dogs are particularly effective against illithids because their heads are not so positioned that an illithid can comfortably attack with its tentacles (-4 on to-hit scores). The mindflayers hate and fear these beasts, and always retreat from them unless the illithids have servants of their own who can occupy the dogs.

Both kaoulgrim and szarkel (see below) are taught to grasp their enemies and hold on if so commanded. A hold is inflicted on a successful attack roll of 4 or more over the number needed to hit, and the victim is thereafter considered to be held by one leg, with combat penalties as given on page 67 of the DMG. The dog inflicts half its normal biting damage on each round thereafter, with no “to hit” roll required for the attack.

Gith dogs are relatively rare even among the githyanki and gifhzerai, each of which is only 1% likely per level of experience to have acquired one.

*Kaoulgrim*
The ultimate development of the githyanki breeding pens was the kaoulgrim, a massive, bearish dog with a shaggy coat, powerful jaws, and a compact build. Precisely what went into the making of the breed is unknown, but it is strongly suspected that the blood of creatures from the Lower Planes flows in its veins. It stands about 3’ tall at the shoulder and weighs 200-300 pounds. Kaoulgrim are usually black, though golden-colored specimens are not unknown. The heavy fur forms a lionlike mane about the shoulders, and it is often clipped in some decorative pattern. The tongue and lips are black, and the small black eyes reflect a reddish light. The powerful voice is audible over distances of more than a mile.

Kaoulgrim have a strong, musky, salty odor. These dogs may be outfitted with ornamental spiked collars if they have served well, or with plate armor in the ornate githyanki style. This armor confers AC 2 but limits the movement rate to 12”. 

Kaoulgrim are raised in githyanki colonies on the Prime Material Plane, since the nature of the Astral Plane does not allow conception or growth. Weak or otherwise unsatisfactory members of the litter are killed as soon as their deficiencies become apparent, and the remainder are pitted against various creatures in savage public contests at the end of their first year. The survivors are matched to githyanki warriors, and, after the bonding ceremony, receive rigorous training over the course of the next two years, by which time they are mature. They then project with their masters onto the Astral Plane, where they serve indefinitely as guard and war dogs, aging only when they project with their masters onto some other plane. Unbonded dogs may serve as guards and breeding stock in the githyanki colonies. 

Adult kaoulgrim are without exception vicious and mistrustful of strangers, though among themselves they are gregarious. They are tormented as pups by non githyanki slaves as part of a program to instill this behavior. Githyanki warriors have boasted that their kaoulgrim are fed on the flesh of illithids as well as on that of various humans and demi-human races, and there is reason to believe that the latter claim at least is true. What one of these dogs would be like if it were brought up away from githyanki influence is unknown, since no thief has succeeded in stealing a pup and lived to carry out the experiment.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #117 (1986).


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 16, 2008)

So... they have no special attacks other than those of all gith-dogs? The kaoulgrim-specific text seems to be all flavor.

So, 5 HD magical beast, high Str and Con, improved grab, Track, scent, bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, act as a power point resivoir, immunity to mind-influencing effects, grants its psi-bonded master a bonus to those effects? Do we want to make it psionics-only, or all mind-influencing effects?


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2008)

That sounds like a pretty good assessment, though it might help to have the githzerai version for comparison.  They also seem to have a special form of see invisibility that lets them see into the Ethereal plane and Astral plane (though I'd think they are usually Astral themselves).  Worth thinking about.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Here's the other for comparison...

Gith Dog, Szarkel (Canis chaosi)
FREQUENCY Very rare
NO. APPEARING: Varies with masters
ARMOR CLASS: 4 
MOVE: 24"//12"
HIT DICE: 4+1
% IN LAIR: Varies with masters
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hold
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT! Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: See text
Attack/Defense Modes: See text
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IV/205 + 5 per hp

Szarkel
The antecedents of the szarkel breed are not known, though the blood of various doglike creatures from the chaotic planes was undoubtedly added to the line.  Szarkel are certainly well adapted to the unpredictable planes of Limbo.

A szarkel stands 3' high at the shoulder and may weigh 150 pounds or more. It is of slender build, with a long muzzle, a long body and tail, and long legs. The teeth are unnaturally sharp.  A szarkel's eyes are large and yellow, the pupil a vertical slit. The normal coat is short and gray, but these dogs have a limited polymorph ability that allows them to alter the color, length, and quality of the fur to suit local conditions: long and thick in cold weather, short in hot weather, waterproof light in swampy territory, and so on, while its color may be any shade or combination of white, brown, red, black, or gray. Coat alteration takes one turn. The smell of szarkel is pleasant, rather like scented wood. Unlike normal dogs, szarkel can close their nostrils and swim comfortably underwater, remaining active beneath the surface for up to three rounds at a time.

Szarkel are raised on the plane of Limbo, and are only found as adults on other planes where they join their masters in battle or in the hunt. During their first year, pups are given the run of the settlement, and the githzerai take no active part in their rearing. At the end of that time, juvenile szarkel choose and are chosen by candidate githzerai in a simple ceremony.

Unbonded dogs are ejected from the community, and presumably do not survive the hazards of the Planes of Limbo by themselves. Once bonded, a szarkel is a loyal if sometimes willful follower, and obeys no one but its own master. Szarkel sometimes show an astounding degree of independent thought and initiative, but even the githzerai find them difficult to train.

Though they are occasionally set to guard an area or item, szarkel are not reliable in this capacity. They are restless creatures and seldom remain in one spot for long. They constantly roam their master's dwelling or encampments, awaiting a call to action or the approach of intruders.  With their unpredictable and incessant movement and their keen senses, they make it extremely difficult for strangers to approach any large group of githzerai unnoticed.

Szarkel are sometimes equipped with light leathery armor made of a clear substance that the githzerai find or harvest on the planes of Limbo. This improves the dog's armor class by one place, but restricts its movement rate to 21". A szarkel is usually equipped with a simple collar identifying its master.

Szarkel are aloof and reserved, and do not seem to care much for each other's company.  No more than three dogs can be housed in the same kennel; even then, there is sometimes fighting. The pups are cared for by both parents. Would-be thieves have found that the adults are vigilant, and that the githzerai are greatly disturbed if a litter is taken despite their otherwise indifferent attitude toward the pups.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

The only things that szarkel have that the other one doesn't is fur that changes color and thickness (racial bonus to Hide checks and to Fort saves to endure extreme temperatures?) and hold breath. Should we give the githyanki dog a few little perks to further differentiate it as well?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Yeah, a couple things like that would make sense.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

How about:

Mindtracking (Su): A whatever-a-githyanki-dog-is-called gains a +4 bonus on all Survival checks made to track creatures not immune to mind-influencing effects.

Mindflight (Su): Due to its familiarity with the Astral Plane, a whatever-a-githyanki-dog-is-called gains a +30ft enhancement bonus to its move speed on a plane with subjective directional gravity.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Since the szarkel's unique abilities appear to be a result of contact with Limbo, perhaps the kaoulgrim's should be somehow caused by Astral contact. 

Maybe something based off the "no gravity" or "timeless" planar traits?  Something like racial bonus on Jump checks, or bonus on saves against poison, or the ability to go twice as long before starvation and thirst set in?

*Edit: * Or just go with Demiurge's fantastic abilities above.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

Let's go with demiurge's suggestions, as they're great.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Let's figure out some ability scores.

Riding Dog (M): Str 15, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Hell Hound (M): Str 13, Dex 13, Con 13, Int 6, Wis 10, Cha 6
Shadow Mastiff (M): Str 17, Dex 13, Con 17, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 13

We should also pay _really _close attention to the spectral hounds from Polyhedron #100 (the Incursion issue), as they are essentially a third form of gith hound.

Spectral Hound (M): Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 8


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

I'd be pretty happy with the Spectral Hound's scores, and their more or less middle of the road.  The high Wis makes good sense, too.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Maybe give the kaoulgrim slightly higher Str and Con, and the szarkel slightly higher Dex?

Something like...

Spectral Hound: Str 15, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 8
Kaoulgrim: Str 17, Dex 14, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 8 
Szarkel: Str 15, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 8


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2008)

I like it!


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 18, 2008)

Sounds good to me too. Helps differentiate them more.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2008)

> Despite their long years of divergence, the two kinds of dogs have a number of features on common. Both have the senses of their canine ancestors, so that a gith dog gains a 20% bonus to its chances of detecting otherwise hidden creatures by scent, and a 20% bonus for its keen hearing (see page 60 of the DMG). These bonuses are cumulative where they are applicable, and either may be halved or doubled as conditions warrant. Gith dogs can also track as an onyx dog can (DMG, page 144). They gain a 50% bonus to their chances of detecting or tracking illithids by smell. In addition to this, gith dogs can see invisible, astral, and ethereal creatures and objects. Alert and silent, they surprise opponents on a 1-4 and are themselves surprised only on a 1.




Racial Spot (+4?), Listen (+4?), and Move Silently (+8?) bonuses.  Track as a bonus feat, and an extra racial bonus tracking mind flayers.  Continual see invisibility (or an Su that also allows for seeing astral?).


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

I agree with all that, and there no longer appears to be a "see astral" need.

How's this for a start?

Bred Flayer-Foe (Ex):  Gith hounds are bred to hunt and kill illithids.  As a result, gith hounds gain a +x racial bonus on attack rolls against mind flayers, and a +x racial bonus on opposed grapple checks vs. illithids or Escape Artist checks made to escape an illithid's grapple.  Gith hounds also gain a +x racial bonus on Survival checks made to follow an illithid's tracks.  DMs should consider extending these bonuses to illithidkin such as illithidae, neothelids, and elder brains.

Also, these two features of the spectral hound may be appropriate...

Astral Tracking (Su): A spectral hound can attempt to track normally even through the featureless wastes of the Astral Plane (base DC 25). A spectral hound can use this ability to track quarry that uses a teleportation spell to travel, by entering the Astral Plane at the departure point, following the trail of the teleportation through the Astral Plane, and returning to the plane of departure at its quarry's destination.

Skills: *Spectral hounds receive a +10 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent (including tracking on the Astral Plane).


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## freyar (Dec 23, 2008)

I like Bred Flayer-foe and Astral Tracking.  Since we have Mindtracking, maybe we don't need the racial skill bonus to Survival, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 23, 2008)

The bonus from flayer-foe should be +4, methinks.

And astral tracking looks good.


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## Shade (Dec 23, 2008)

Updated.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

Shall we work on this now?



> Each gith dog has a latent degree of psionic power which can be tapped under certain conditions. The githyanki and githzerai magic-users have a spell similar to find familiar which they may cast either for themselves or for other individuals. A dog that is bound to a psionically endowed master by this spell may serve as a storehouse of psionic energy, holding up to 20 psionic strength points in the manner of an ioun stone (DMG, page 147). These are added to the master’s strength total and may be released to him or her so long as the dog remains within 12”.


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 30, 2008)

20 pp is huge these days--it costs vast sums of gold to get a cognizance crystal that holds 20 pp. Maybe we should cut it down to something more reasonable, like, say, 5.


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## Shade (Dec 30, 2008)

I'm wondering if the gith hound should take the place of a psicrystal...in other words, the psionic character must select one or the other.  Sort of like an Improved Familiar.


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## freyar (Dec 30, 2008)

I'll agree to both 5 points and "Improved Familiar."  Should we make a feat for the gith to take similar to Psicrystal Affinity?


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## demiurge1138 (Dec 31, 2008)

Good idea!


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## RavinRay (Jan 5, 2009)

Yeah, make a gith dog and a psicrystal mutually exclusive. At least the former's better than an elemental steward from _Complete Psionic_ IMO.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Here's a rough draft...

Gith Hound Bond [Psionic]
You have formed a special bond with a gith hound.
Prerequisite: Manifester level 1st?
Benefit: Your bonded gith hound gains the following abilities based upon your manifester level as if it were a psicrystal:  Alertness, improved evasion, 
share powers, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, power resistance, and channel power.  Additionally, the bonded gith hound may store up to 5 power points for its master as if it were a congizance crystal.
Special: A creature bonded with a gith hound may not gain a psicrystal.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Make it manifester level 5th or 7th, like Improved Familiar. And specify that it works both ways--if you bond with a psicrystal, you can't bond with a gith hound. If you bond with a gith hound, you can't bond with a psicrystal.


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

Let's leave it at 5th and revisit it once the creature is finished.  We may end up needing different manifester levels to qualify for a kaoulgrim or szarkel.

Revising...

Gith Hound Bond [Psionic]
You have formed a special bond with a gith hound.
Prerequisite: Manifester level 5th.
Benefit: Your bonded gith hound gains the following abilities based upon your manifester level as if it were a psicrystal: Alertness, improved evasion, 
share powers, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, power resistance, and channel power. Additionally, the bonded gith hound may store up to 5 power points for its master as if it were a congizance crystal.
Special: A creature bonded with a gith hound may not gain a psicrystal, nor may a creature possessing a psicrystal bond with a gith hound.


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

I like it!


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 6, 2009)

Looks good to me!


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## freyar (Jan 6, 2009)

Do we allow this for spectral hounds as well, or are those "off-limits" since they're from Dragon?


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## Shade (Jan 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Do we allow this for spectral hounds as well, or are those "off-limits" since they're from Dragon?




Since the spectral hound information isn't necessary to use the feat, I see no problem with mentioning them.  Perhaps in a format like this?

Gith Hound Bond [Psionic]
You have formed a special bond with a gith hound.
Prerequisite: Manifester level 5th.
Benefit: Your bonded gith hound gains the following abilities based upon your manifester level as if it were a psicrystal: Alertness, improved evasion, 
share powers, telepathic link, deliver touch powers, power resistance, and channel power. Additionally, the bonded gith hound may store up to 5 power points for its master as if it were a congizance crystal.
Special: A creature bonded with a gith hound may not gain a psicrystal, nor may a creature possessing a psicrystal bond with a gith hound. 
Note:  If you have access to Polyhedron Magazine #100, this feat can be expanded to include the spectral hound.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Ooops, I meant Polyhedron.  But that works for me!


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## Echohawk (Jan 7, 2009)

Shade said:


> Note:  If you have access to Polyhedron Magazine #100, this feat can be expanded to include the spectral hound.



Heh. This has nothing to do with the gith hound, but I'd like to point out that Polyhedron #100 was by far the hardest issue to get a copy of, when I put together a complete set a year or so ago. I ended up buying Monte Cook's personal copy in an auction .


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Heh. This has nothing to do with the gith hound, but I'd like to point out that Polyhedron #100 was by far the hardest issue to get a copy of, when I put together a complete set a year or so ago. I ended up buying Monte Cook's personal copy in an auction .




No kidding?   I'm glad I had a subscription at the time!   The Incursion issues are fantastic.


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## Echohawk (Jan 7, 2009)

That's Dungeon #100


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> That's Dungeon #100




Ahh, well...in that case, I may _not_ have Polyhedron #100.


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## Echohawk (Jan 7, 2009)

If it's any consolation, Dungeon #100 is now also one of the trickier issues to get, but not nearly as much as the dreaded issue #2...


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Ready to return to the dogs themselves?

(Sometimes these conversations make me glad I'm not a collector!)


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Sure!  Updated.

Armor Class: x (+2 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x

Skills: 8

Feats: Track (B), 2 more


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## Echohawk (Jan 7, 2009)

Almost... now that I check, the Spectral Hound is actually in Dungeon #100 and not Polyhedron #100, so that feat probably needs fixing.


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2009)

Fixed.


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## freyar (Jan 7, 2009)

Max out Survival?

Imp Init, Weapon Focus (bite)?

+3 natural?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x

Challenge Rating: 3-4?  They aren't much deadlier than a hell hound (CR 3), but would be a strong CR 3.

Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2009)

They've got enough hp and a good enough Strength for me to say CR 4.


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

Fair enough.  Should the Organization just be "Domesticated" like horses?  They don't exist outside of githyanki communities.

Advancement:  6-10 HD (Medium)?


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2009)

Yes and yes.

On to the szarkel?


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## Shade (Jan 8, 2009)

I think so...

*Gith Dog, Szarkel (Canis chaosi)*
FREQUENCY Very rare
NO. APPEARING: Varies with masters
ARMOR CLASS: 4 
MOVE: 24"//12"
HIT DICE: 4+1
% IN LAIR: Varies with masters
TREASURE TYPE: Nil
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Hold
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See text
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
INTELLIGENCE: Semi-
ALIGNMENT! Neutral
SIZE: M
PSIONIC ABILITY: See text
Attack/Defense Modes: See text
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IV/205 + 5 per hp

Szarkel
The antecedents of the szarkel breed are not known, though the blood of various doglike creatures from the chaotic planes was undoubtedly added to the line. Szarkel are certainly well adapted to the unpredictable planes of Limbo.

A szarkel stands 3' high at the shoulder and may weigh 150 pounds or more. It is of slender build, with a long muzzle, a long body and tail, and long legs. The teeth are unnaturally sharp. A szarkel's eyes are large and yellow, the pupil a vertical slit. The normal coat is short and gray, but these dogs have a limited polymorph ability that allows them to alter the color, length, and quality of the fur to suit local conditions: long and thick in cold weather, short in hot weather, waterproof light in swampy territory, and so on, while its color may be any shade or combination of white, brown, red, black, or gray. Coat alteration takes one turn. The smell of szarkel is pleasant, rather like scented wood. Unlike normal dogs, szarkel can close their nostrils and swim comfortably underwater, remaining active beneath the surface for up to three rounds at a time.

Szarkel are raised on the plane of Limbo, and are only found as adults on other planes where they join their masters in battle or in the hunt. During their first year, pups are given the run of the settlement, and the githzerai take no active part in their rearing. At the end of that time, juvenile szarkel choose and are chosen by candidate githzerai in a simple ceremony.

Unbonded dogs are ejected from the community, and presumably do not survive the hazards of the Planes of Limbo by themselves. Once bonded, a szarkel is a loyal if sometimes willful follower, and obeys no one but its own master. Szarkel sometimes show an astounding degree of independent thought and initiative, but even the githzerai find them difficult to train.

Though they are occasionally set to guard an area or item, szarkel are not reliable in this capacity. They are restless creatures and seldom remain in one spot for long. They constantly roam their master's dwelling or encampments, awaiting a call to action or the approach of intruders. With their unpredictable and incessant movement and their keen senses, they make it extremely difficult for strangers to approach any large group of githzerai unnoticed.

Szarkel are sometimes equipped with light leathery armor made of a clear substance that the githzerai find or harvest on the planes of Limbo. This improves the dog's armor class by one place, but restricts its movement rate to 21". A szarkel is usually equipped with a simple collar identifying its master.

Szarkel are aloof and reserved, and do not seem to care much for each other's company. No more than three dogs can be housed in the same kennel; even then, there is sometimes fighting. The pups are cared for by both parents. Would-be thieves have found that the adults are vigilant, and that the githzerai are greatly disturbed if a litter is taken despite their otherwise indifferent attitude toward the pups.


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## RavinRay (Jan 9, 2009)

Hmmm… don't see a single remark about psionic abilities (except possibly that "limited polymorph" thing), unless we give them those pertaining to sensing and detecting.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

I think the "see text" refers to the overall gith dog entry, where the "psionic ability" is basically the power point storage.

Upthread, we determined the szarkel's ability scores would be Str 15, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 8.

It looks like we can just plug in the different ability scores and other stat differences (less HD, greater speed).   

Beyond that, the only things that seem to differentiate them are the "hold breath"-like ability, and 10% spell resistance/power resistance.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

Agreed.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Are we keeping the various astral tracking abilities?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Hmmm...probably need to tailor those more towards Limbo.  Suggestions?


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

> The normal coat is short and gray, but these dogs have a limited polymorph ability that allows them to alter the color, length, and quality of the fur to suit local conditions: long and thick in cold weather, short in hot weather, waterproof light in swampy territory, and so on, while its color may be any shade or combination of white, brown, red, black, or gray. Coat alteration takes one turn. The smell of szarkel is pleasant, rather like scented wood. Unlike normal dogs, szarkel can close their nostrils and swim comfortably underwater, remaining active beneath the surface for up to three rounds at a time.




Upthread:



			
				demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> The only things that szarkel have that the other one doesn't is fur that changes color and thickness (racial bonus to Hide checks and to Fort saves to endure extreme temperatures?) and hold breath.




I like demiurge's suggestions, and we can drop the kaougrim's astral tracking and mindflight.  Is that a fair tradeoff?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

I think it's a fair tradeoff. We might want to lower its CR compared to the githyank dog, though.


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

That does seem fair.  Maybe alter the astral tracking to apply to Limbo?

Astral Tracking (Su): A szarkel can attempt to track normally even through the ever-changing chaos of Limbo (base DC 20).


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Maybe Chaotic Tracking?


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## Shade (Jan 9, 2009)

Sounds good.

How are these?

Coat Alteration (Su):  As a full-round action, a szarkel may alter the color, length, and quality of its fur to better adapt to its environment.  Doing so grants it a +x racial bonus to Hide checks for as long as it remains within the same type of environment.  Additionally, it grants the szarkel a +x racial bonus on Fortitude saves to endure extreme temperatures.

Hold Breath (Ex): A szarkel can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 3 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.


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## freyar (Jan 9, 2009)

Looks good!  +2 or +4 on the coat alteration bonuses?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 9, 2009)

+4 for both Hide and Fortitude bonuses.


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## RavinRay (Jan 10, 2009)

The szarkel's ability to adapt is reminiscent of but inferior to a slaad's Limbo adaptability, so it looks good.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

Updated.


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## freyar (Jan 12, 2009)

Max Survival?
Feats: Imp Init seems like a good fit again, and maybe Weapon Finesse this time?  Dodge or even Endurance might be good also.


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## Shade (Jan 12, 2009)

All sounds good.  I think Endurance fits the bill.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Updated.

CR 3?

Power resistance/spell resistance = CR + 5?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Agreed to both.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

Shall we go back to the gith-hound bonding feat? It strikes me that the githzerai hound should have a lower required manifester level to bond with than a githyanki hound.


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## Shade (Jan 13, 2009)

Good point.  Manifester level 3rd for szarkel?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 13, 2009)

For Improved Familiar, a CR 2 creature (like an imp or quasit) is CL 5th. I'd say 7th for the szarkel and 9th for... the other one.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Reasonable enough.

Also, given that the githzerai give these leather-ish armor (listed in flavor text), should we give them armor in the stat block?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

I think so. Leather has no ACP, so it should be fine.


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## Shade (Jan 14, 2009)

Updated.

Also, updated kaoulgrim with same revised feat.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 14, 2009)

Looks good to me.


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## freyar (Jan 14, 2009)

Same here.


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## Shade (Jan 15, 2009)

Here's the "one of these things is not like the other" leftover undine we decided to rename "ondine" to avoid confusion.

*UNDINE*
FREQUENCY: Very rare (uncommon on Elemental Plane of Water)
NO. APPEARING: 2-20
ARMOR CLASS: 6
MOVE: //12.
HIT DICE: 2
% IN LAIR: 80%
TREASURE TYPE: P, R, any two magic
items (20%)
NO. OF ATTACKS: See below
DAMAGE/ATTACK: See below
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Rapid drowning, paralysis
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Invisible in water, plane shift
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Low
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: S(3. long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: IV/163 + 2/hp

These creatures come from the Elemental Plane of Water. Like water weirds, they enjoy drowning their victims; it is also believed that they survive by draining the lifeforce of their victims. In appearance, undines are similar to miniature merwomen; they have a single, scaled, lateral tail (much like that of a dolphin) which is connected to a humanoid upper body.

Their lairs are simply areas of water which they use as a base for traveling between planes, This area is found along a well-traveled route, populated seacoast, or any other area which offers a great number of potential victims. As a result, many bodies often litter the floor of the lake, river, or ocean that they inhabit.

Undines have the ability to charm monsters as per the spell, usable once per day. By doing so, undines can command larger sea creatures (whales, giant squids, or octopi) to do their bidding. Undines use these larger creatures to destroy ships or whisk sailors from decks. Once in the water, these sailors are then attacked by the undines, who attempt to slay them. During this time, the other creatures do not attack as the undine must kill the victim themselves in order to consume their lifeforce. An (invisible) undine grasps a person on a successful to-hit roll, which causes the victim to save vs. paralysis or become completely paralyzed. The victim drowns in 1-2 rounds, even if able to take a deep breath before going under. Undines are not strong, so a mobile character can easily escape from one’s clutches.

Undines are naturally invisible in water, even if attacking. If an undine is losing a battle, the creature flees for its lair. Characters attempting to locate an undine must use magical means (spells or devices) to do so. In extreme cases, as when the undine’s death is the probable outcome of combat, this creature may use its ability to transport itself back to the Elemental Plane of Water if no other means of escape is available.  This plane shift ability works once per year, so they are reluctant to use it.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #116 (1986).


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## RavinRay (Jan 16, 2009)

This reminds me of the breathdrinker from Monster Manual II that does a similar thing to air-breathers.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Indeed.   Paralysis by touch rather than by gaze, but the other mechanic should probably port over nicely.

So to get these things going, lets look at ability scores.  We know Int is Low (5-7).  The flavor text notes they aren't strong, so low Str.  Dex is probably decent, based on their AC, and the fact that they will most likely rely on a touch attack.   Cha should be good for their reliance on SLAs.  Con appears average.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jan 16, 2009)

These creatures are similar to nereids, which have the following ability scores:

Str 9 Dex 17 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 12 Cha 16

It's also worth noting that nereids are fey.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

I like these being Outsider (water) or Elemental, actually. Tritons are Outsider (Water) and give me a similar vibe.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

I also think Monstrous Humanoid (extraplanar) or even Magical Beast (extraplanar) could work.  But I'm inclined to go with Outsider (Water).  I like the idea of fey, but I think the tie to the Elemental Plane of Water rules that out.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

I like Outsider, as I too got the triton vibe.

The nereid physical scores should be a good start.  Since these are Small, they should be weaker.  Since their AC translates to 14, and they get a +1 for Small size, I think the nereid's Dex of 17 works perfectly.  

How about Str 7, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 5, Wis 12, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Those ability scores look pretty good, although considering that they charm animal on really big, scary things and have nearly insta-kill attacks, we may want to boost HD and AC a bit to make them defensive enough for their CR.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2009)

Since they're Outsiders, they're reasonable candidates for some kind of "grace" that gives them a deflection bonus to AC.  Cha could get boosted then, which would help with the charming, too.

Edit: let's not forget that they're naturally invisible, too. Maybe they don't need much more AC with that.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Good point on natural invisibility. I do sort of like the idea of grace, but I think that their existing Cha should be enough.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2009)

Boost to somewhere in the 4-6 HD range?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 16, 2009)

Sure. 5 HD sounds good to me.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2009)

Works here, too.  Watery grace, no boost to Cha, also?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 17, 2009)

I vote for watery grace with no Cha boost.


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## Shade (Jan 20, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Stick with the water transparency we gave the undine, or go with the invisible stalker's natural invisibility?

Borrow this from the breathdrinker?

Steal Breath (Su): As a full-round action, a breathdrinker can attempt to suck the air from the lungs of any helpless creature within reach. The target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw (DC 17) or take 1d6 points of Constitution damage. The target dies when his or her Constitution score reaches 0. The breathdrinker heals 5 points of damage for each point of Constitution the target loses, gaining any excess as temporary hit points. So long as the target remains helpless, the breathdrinker continues to use this attack against that creature every round until it dies.


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## freyar (Jan 20, 2009)

Let's go with the invisible stalker version.  I think that's what's intended (but only underwater).  

Steal Breath seems good.


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 20, 2009)

Transparency. Invisible creatures in the RAW only have concealment underwater, because they can be placed through displacement of water. 

Agreed to borrowing steal breath, but if the victim is holding its breath, for every failed Fortitude save, the victim must make another failed save or cease holding its breath?


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## freyar (Jan 21, 2009)

Oooh, true about invisibility under water.  But invisibility gives additional benefits besides (full) concealment -- +2 to attacks, ignores Dex AC, etc.  How about adding those to transparency?

Sounds reasonable about steal breath.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2009)

Do you propose we add those benefits to the (other) undine's ability as well?


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## freyar (Jan 22, 2009)

Unless it didn't specifically said it wasn't really invisible, I think so.  It just seems like if you can't see them, they should get the full benefits of invisibility.  If anyone disagrees, though, I'm open to discussion.


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2009)

I'm OK with it.  Demiurge?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 23, 2009)

I'd prefer transparency to just grant full concealment. It's more streamlined.


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## freyar (Jan 24, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I'd prefer transparency to just grant full concealment. It's more streamlined.



I'd agree, but 







> Characters attempting to locate an undine must use magical means (spells or devices) to do so.



I think they should at least get a big Hide bonus underwater.  You know, not just full concealment but inability to be seen.


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## Shade (Jan 27, 2009)

I'm fine with a huge Hide bonus underwater as well.


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## freyar (Jan 27, 2009)

+8 or +12 even for the Hide bonus?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

Let's go +12.


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

Updated.

Does the steal breath revision look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

The revised steal breath looks fine to me.


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Same here.  

How about 1d4+1 (like ghouls/ghasts) or 1d6 rounds for paralysis?  

CL 5?

Uhh, 50 lb?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 28, 2009)

I like d4+1


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

A Small water elemental is 35 pounds at 4 feet, so since these ladies are only 3 feet long, maybe 25 pounds?

Agreed with all of the rest.

Updated.

Skills: 40

Feats: 2


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## freyar (Jan 28, 2009)

Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim?

Ability Focus (charm monster), Ability Focus (steal breath)?


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## Shade (Jan 28, 2009)

I like those selections.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-20)

Challenge Rating: x



> P, R, any two magic items (20%)




P:
1-6 1,000s of silver pieces: 30% 
1-2 1,000s of electrum pieces: 25% 

R:
2-8 1,000s of gold pieces: 40%
10-60 100s of platinum pieces: 50%
4-32 gems: 55%
1-12 jewelry: 45%

Treasure: Double standard?

Advancement: x


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 30, 2009)

Double standard treasure. Advancement 6-15 HD (Small)?

Why is the touch +9 to hit? I'm assuming that it was assumed we'd be giving them Weapon Finesse. We should, either at the expense of Ability Focus (charm monster) or as a bonus feat.


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## Shade (Jan 30, 2009)

Indeed. Let's go bonus feat.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or x (2-20)
x = wave?  maelstrom?  tide?  

Challenge Rating: 4?


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## freyar (Jan 31, 2009)

I like maelstrom, and CR 4 sounds right.


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## Shade (Feb 3, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

Welcome back!  Hopefully the others can get back soon as well.

*Averx*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subterranean
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Clan
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Omnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Genius (18)
TREASURE TYPE: W; Q on individuals
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 4-16 (10%: 1-2)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 9, Fl 15
HIT DICE: 1+3 (leaders 2+1)
THAC0: 19
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: By weapon type
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Spells, +4 to surprise foes
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Spells, thieving abilities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 25%
SIZE: T (1½’ tall)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 650 (Leaders 975)

Averxes, in their usual form, resemble small, thin, gray-skinned humans with horns, amber eyes, miniature wings, and little clothing. These miniature “dungeon demons” or “cave devils” enjoy hampering and stealing from adventurers or other beings unlucky enough to stumble across their path, but they have other concerns and goals as well.

Combat: Averxes can move silently, hide in shadows, and read languages with an 85% chance of success. They utilize other thieving abilities at the fifth level of use, using Table 19 in the Dungeon Master’s Guide. All averxes have infravision to 120', but light causes them no harm.

They can use each of the following spells twice per day: blink, enlarge, invisibility, and levitate. They can also cast, thrice per day, faerie fire, audible glamer phantasmal force, light, and spook. All spells work as though cast by a 5th-level mage. In addition to these spells, an averx leader can cast fear, silence 15’ radius, and warp wood once a day. These spells can be cast even in total silence, though the averx must have its hands free for somatic gestures.

Oddly enough, no averx is affected by a cursed weapon or item, and they are immune to all forms of curse spells.  Averxes avoid direct combat, preferring hit-and-run raids, traps, sabotage, misdirection, and bluffing. They attack other beings only if attacked themselves or if such beings enter and harm the averxes’ territory, but they enjoy causing trouble for its own sake as well. In particular, these creatures hunt out small, evil beings like jermlaine and other vermin of the Underdark, killing them and casting their bodies into any available deep pits.

In all combat situation, averxes are extremely clever, observant, and commanding. They set traps of fiendish design in the underground corridors leading to their most carefully guarded lairs and realms, using all manner of snares, pits, poisons, and the like.

Habitat/Society: Averxes prefer to live deep underground in the most beautiful natural areas imaginable, especially in vast, crystalline caverns. They enjoy lighting their homes in different ways to enhance the natural beauty, and they conduct elaborate rituals in honor of their homes at irregular intervals. Any intruders who damage these caverns in any way, whether by mining, construction, or simple rock collecting, will spark the averxes’ communal anger.

Averxes do not usually carry treasure upon their persons, but each one is likely to have thin rope or cord, knives, wire, oil, tinderboxes, caltrops, or darts. Leaders may carry cursed items for bothersome intruders to “find.” An averx lair has only a relatively small amount of treasure, and averxes usually carry a few gems around with them for their own pleasure. A lair is usually high in a cavern ceiling, in a hole or tunnel or along a ledge. Every effort is made to conceal this area from view and to keep it safe.

Sometimes one or two averxes, acting on their own curiosity, make their ways into dungeons or deep cellars. They rarely stay long, preferring to acquire some minor treasures and leave—possibly after causing a little mischief.

Ecology: With their array of powers, one would guess that averxes are nothing more than nuisance monsters. Some sages, however, believe that averxes were created by unknown (and possibly extinct) greater powers as guardians of subterranean lands and protectors of their beauty. They prey on small animals and evil creatures but largely leave everything else alone.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #172 (1991).


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Huh, couldn't get in all morning, but I saw a post by Umbran in Meta that the DNS issue seems to have been fixed.

Fey could work for these, but the picture I have borders on humanoid.  This is one of those overlapping cases, I guess, like gnomes and spriggans.


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## Shade (Feb 4, 2009)

You might jot this down in case you lose access again.

ENWorld's IP address is 68.68.204.19.  You can plug that directly into your browser's address line, which should get around DNS issues.

I wish I'd had that Monday.  

Anyway, I think I'm leaning toward fey for these fellows, if for no other reason that this passage...



> Some sages, however, believe that averxes were created by unknown (and possibly extinct) greater powers as guardians of subterranean lands and protectors of their beauty.


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## freyar (Feb 4, 2009)

Yeah, but you still can't navigate around unless you type it all in!  At least I couldn't.

Sure, let's go fey.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

I like the idea of them as fey, and the whole "immune to curses" thing, I really like.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

1 HD, Tiny?  Pretty decent Con based on the extra hp, I think, or else some kind of Cha-based toughness.  Give them rogue class abilities as if 5th level?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Good Con, I think. I dunno about full rogue abilities, but evasion and uncanny dodge, definitely.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Yeah, I also like a good Con.  I think they should also have trap-finding, trap sense, etc., given their use of traps.

Based on the other Tiny fey, how about Str 4, Dex 20, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 11, Cha 13?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Those ability scores appeal.

OK. Trap finding and trap sense. That's fine--I was worried that you were shooting for sneak attack, which I thought was too much. I'd actually be fine with not including, say, uncanny dodge.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

While sneak attack would be fun, I don't see a real call for it (or really for uncanny dodge or evasion, but I'm ok with including any of these).

I'd also support a substantial racial bonus (+4 at least) to Hide and Move Silently.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 5, 2009)

Substantial bonus to Hide and Move Silently is good. Evasion I like (and it'll help even more with those traps if it sets them off!)

I was thinking about doing something with its immunity to curses. I like the whole "carry cursed items to mess with adventurers", but I can't help but think there should be something else.


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## freyar (Feb 5, 2009)

Let's keep Evasion as well, then.

I can't think of much else for the curses thing, either.  Let's brainstorm: how else do curses come up in a D&D game?  And what specific spells are they immune to (just ones with curse in the name)?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

Also:

Roguish (Ex): Averxes have trapfinding, trap sense +1, and evasion as rogues of 5th level.

If we let them advance by character class (which seems like an option to me), I guess this should stack with actual rogue levels, huh?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes.

As for the curses thing, only bestow curse is core, but there's a bunch of other curses in non-core supplements. Perhaps we could borrow from one of them for a minor cursing ability?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Also:
> 
> Roguish (Ex): Averxes have trapfinding, trap sense +1, and evasion as rogues of 5th level.
> 
> If we let them advance by character class (which seems like an option to me), I guess this should stack with actual rogue levels, huh?




Yes to the stacking, although I'm not sure this should be a single ability.  Generally, monsters with class abilities list them out individually.

For example, see the MM3 rakshasa, particularly the nathzarune.


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## freyar (Feb 6, 2009)

Sure, we can list them separately.  That works.

These should be immune to the effects of cursed items, too, right?


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## Shade (Feb 6, 2009)

Yes.  "Curse" should really be an effect, like fear, polymorph, etc.

They should be immune to all curses, whether from a bestow curse spell, a cursed item, mummy rot, lycanthropy, or the dying curse of some creatures.


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## freyar (Feb 8, 2009)

Immune to Curses (Su): Averxes are not subject to any ill effects from curses, including the bestow curse spell, cursed items, supernatural diseases such as mummy rot, lycanthropy, hexes, or dying curses of certain creatures.  ??


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## RavinRay (Feb 8, 2009)

Would this would include the warlock's invocations and the hexblade's curses?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 8, 2009)

Hexblade curses, yes. Hexblade spells, no. Warlock invocations? Unless they model a curse (like curse of despair), then no.


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

Yeah, I wasn't sure how to talk about hexblades and warlocks, exactly, but I guess we don't have to dance too carefully around those words.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Will this cover it?

Immune to Curses (Su): Averxes are not subject to any ill effects from curses.  This includes the bestow curse spell, cursed items, supernatural diseases such as mummy rot, lycanthropy, hexes, dying curses of certain creatures, and any other effect or special ability with the word "curse" in the title.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

I think that should do the trick.


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Updated.



> All averxes have infravision to 120', but light causes them no harm.




As fey, they get low-light vision.  Should we give them darkvision 120 feet as well?



> They set traps of fiendish design in the underground corridors leading to their most carefully guarded lairs and realms, using all manner of snares, pits, poisons, and the like.




Give 'em poison use?


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## freyar (Feb 9, 2009)

Since they live underground, I say yes to darkvision.  I think poison use makes good sense.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

Ditto on darkvision and poison use. Also--somewhere to spend the skill points!


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## Shade (Feb 9, 2009)

Speaking of skill points...

Skills: 40
Feats: 1



> These miniature “dungeon demons” or “cave devils” enjoy hampering and stealing from adventurers or other beings unlucky enough to stumble across their path






> Averxes avoid direct combat, preferring hit-and-run raids, traps, sabotage, misdirection, and bluffing.






> In all combat situation, averxes are extremely clever, observant, and commanding. They set traps of fiendish design in the underground corridors leading to their most carefully guarded lairs and realms, using all manner of snares, pits, poisons, and the like.






> Averxes prefer to live deep underground in the most beautiful natural areas imaginable, especially in vast, crystalline caverns. They enjoy lighting their homes in different ways to enhance the natural beauty, and they conduct elaborate rituals in honor of their homes at irregular intervals.




Bluff, Craft (trapfinding), Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Listen, Open Lock, Move Silently, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble?

Also, this has been bugging me...



> HIT DICE: 1+3 (leaders 2+1)





> In addition to these spells, an averx leader can cast fear, silence 15’ radius, and warp wood once a day.




That's about it to differentiate leaders.  I'd propose we make the base averx 2 HD (since they have such a wide range of abilities), and make the leaders the highest-level rogues.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 9, 2009)

That sounds reasonable. Give them Spring Attack and Weapon Finesse as bonus feats, and Stealthy for their actual feat?


----------



## freyar (Feb 10, 2009)

So do all of them get all the SLAs then?


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## Shade (Feb 10, 2009)

Yes.  Is that OK?

It just seems silly to allow a strange advancement pattern for a single Hit Die, and then essentially dooming them to low-level hell or causing odd "leaders" with 2 HD but less class levels than their "followers".


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 10, 2009)

Agreed to SLAs for everybody and leaders with levels in actual rogue.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Updated.

fly 40 ft. (perfect)?

Short sword and light crossbow for weapons?

Damage reduction x/cold iron



> Averxes do not usually carry treasure upon their persons, but each one is likely to have thin rope or cord, knives, wire, oil, tinderboxes, caltrops, or darts. Leaders may carry cursed items for bothersome intruders to “find.” An averx lair has only a relatively small amount of treasure, and averxes usually carry a few gems around with them for their own pleasure.




Treasure:  Half coins; double goods; standard items?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

That all sounds pretty good.  Let's add that the items are often cursed directly in the treasure line.  DR 2?

Let's make them Usually N unless there's a good reason for always.  CR 2?  Or even 3 due to those SAs?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Agreed to DR 2, CR 3. I should point out that enlarge person would do nothing for them--we should instead give them a change size something like the efreet.


----------



## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Updated.

Good catch on enlarge.  How's this?

Change Size (Sp): Twice per day, an averx can magically change its size. This works just like an enlarge person spell, except that the ability can work on the averx. This is the equivalent of a 2nd-level spell.

Averxes speak Sylvan and Undercommon?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

Good for both.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

Updated.

Anything left for these fellows?

As an aside, every time I see "Tiny Fey" I think it says "Tina Fey".


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 11, 2009)

Ditto, ditto.


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2009)

That looks like it.


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

*Adaro*
Armor Class: 1 Magic Ability: Wizard, 10th Level
Move: 14”/21” Fighter Ability: Lord, 9th Level
Hit Points 70

The Adaro are Sea-sprites who travel in waterspouts or Sunshowers and use Rainbows as bridges. They are partly human and partly fishlike in appearance. They shoot men with flying fish, and when the missile strikes, the victim feels pain in the nape of the neck and loses consciousness. Unless an offering of a flying fox is made in ten hours, the victim will die. The chief of the Adaro is Ngorieru.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #29 (1979).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaro_(mythology)

See also:  Dictionary of Natural Myths


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2009)

A few more links...

ADARO : The demon from Oceanic Mythology
Adaro - Monstropedia - the largest encyclopedia about monsters
Adaro

...and check out this awesome artistic rendering!


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Well, those links don't give us much more to go on.  But all I have to say is "weird!"  They shoot people with _flying fish_??!!?!

Do we use the "divide by 3.5" (20 HD) or "divide by 4.5" (15-16HD) rule?


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## RavinRay (Feb 12, 2009)

Is that flying fox offering an actual flying fox, those Old World megabats that navigate by sight and not echolocation? Oh wait a minute, there's a flying fox _fish_.

Maybe those flying fish weapons are the hardened, dried bodies, or they somehow magically harden a living flying fish to make it a weapon.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Do we use the "divide by 3.5" (20 HD) or "divide by 4.5" (15-16HD) rule?




I'd lean toward the latter, and allow advancement to at least 20 HD.



RavinRay said:


> Is that flying fox offering an actual flying fox, those Old World megabats that navigate by sight and not echolocation? Oh wait a minute, there's a flying fox _fish_.
> 
> Maybe those flying fish weapons are the hardened, dried bodies, or they somehow magically harden a living flying fish to make it a weapon.




Great idea!  Sufficiently creepy.  

I could also see them traveling with a swarm of flying fish to direct at foes.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2009)

Alrighty then, let's start with 15 HD.  I guess let's go with magically hardened living fish.   Well, when we get that far.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

From _The Element Encyclopedia of Magical Creatures_ by John Matthews:  This strange being appears in the myths of the Solomon Islands in the western Pacific Ocean.  He is clearly related to the merman, but unlike these familiar sea creatures, the Adaro has legs, attached to which are fins; a larger fin, similar to that of a shark, sprouts from his head.  He also has fish gills and a sharp horn where his nose ought to be.  The Adaro commands a huge army of flying fish, which savagely rend into pieces anyone foolish enough to invade his waters.  The Solomon Islanders describe him as flying through the air, carried by his fish army or riding on the back of a rainbow during storms at sea.

So, 15-HD Medium aquatic fey?

Can command/summon swarms of flying fish to attack foes?

Can use hardened fish as a piercing ranged attack, possibly with poison?

Can perform something similar to air walk upon rainbows, and maybe "ride" on schools of flying fish?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 12, 2009)

Flying fish as a piercing ranged attack with poison--melee attacks with nose saw and spear?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2009)

Sounds good.

No ability score hints are given but they are good fighters and accomplished wizards.  So I'd say decent Str and Con, high Int, probably high Cha, average to decent Wis, and decent to high Dex?


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## RavinRay (Feb 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> The Adaro commands a huge army of flying fish, which savagely rend into pieces anyone foolish enough to invade his waters.



This is reminiscent of the piranha swarm from _Stormwrack_. Perhaps we can draw inspiration from that.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

All good suggestions here.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Str 17, Dex 24, Con 19, Int 17, Wis 16, Cha 21?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Sure!


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

Also agreed.  Should we give them some inherent spellcasting?


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Cast spells as 10th-level sorcerers?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 13, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Allow them to cast spells from the Water (and maybe Evil or Weather) domains as arcane spells, too?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

Water and Weather work for me. Not as keen on evil.


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Spells: An adaro casts spells as a 10th-level sorcerer.  An adaro can also cast spells from the Water and Weather domains as arcane spells.

Sorcerer Spells Known (6/8/7/7/6/4, save DC 15 + spell level): 
0—9; 
1st—5; 
2nd—4; 
3rd—3;
4th—2;
5th—1.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 17, 2009)

How about:

0th: dancing lights, detect magic, detect poison, ghost sound, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, read magic, touch of fatigue
1st: color spray, mage armor, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, ventriloquism
2nd: bull's strength, blur, fog cloud, touch of idiocy
3rd: call lightning, suggestion, slow
4th: charm monster, control water
5th: cone of cold


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## Shade (Feb 17, 2009)

Great!  Updated.

Taking RavingRay's suggestion upthread, here's the piranha swarm for inspiration for our flying fish swarms...

Tiny Animal (Aquatic, Swarm)
Hit Dice: 8d8+11 (47 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: Swim 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/-
Attack: Swarm (3d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (3d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Distraction (DC 15)
Special Qualities: Half damage from slashing and piercing weapons, low-light vision, scent, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +10, Listen +9, Spot +8, Swim +5
Feats: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Toughness
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary or school (2-4 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: -


Reduce damage, add poison and some sort of "flight"?

According to various sites...

This fish has been captured "flying" out of the water for a full 45 seconds.  
These fish have been know to reach speeds of over 60 mph and travel over 1300' in one glide. 
The maximum size for one of these fish is about 1-1/2'. 
The Flying Fish feeds mostly on plankton floating about.


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

Might be able to base the "flight" on the various crickets' leaping abilities.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Attempt #1...

Leaping Glide (Ex):  A flying fish swarm may leap from the water and glide at a speed of x feet for up to x rounds.  The swarm may reach a height equal to the result of its Jump check, then fly with x manueverability.  It may descend, but cannot ascend during this travel.


Since flying fish have been recorded "flying" out of the water for a full 45 seconds, we could simplify that to 8 rounds.   It says they have been know to reach speeds of over 60 mph and travel over 1300' in one glide.  A cheetah can run from 70 to 75 mph, which translates to a sprint speed of 500 feet in 3.5, which would indicate something closer to 400 feet.  But if we divide 1300 by 8, we get 162.5.  Maybe we can just round that off to a fly speed of 160 feet?


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## freyar (Feb 18, 2009)

I think that should work, provided we give them a healthy racial Jump bonus.  160 ft is ok for 8 rounds. Make them clumsy since they don't really have a means of propulsion once in the air.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

Sounds good.

Suggested poison effects?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, since it's lethal, Con damage leaps out at me.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2009)

1d4 Con for primary and secondary?

Should the fish have injury poison as well, or is it the venom from a "thrown fish" tranferred into the wound as if the victim had consumed poisonous flesh?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

Let's make it normally ingested with the Su ability from the adaro for the wounding.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Summarizing...

Tiny Animal (Aquatic, Swarm)
Hit Dice: 8d8+8 (44 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: Swim 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/-
Attack: Swarm (2d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (2d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Distraction (DC 15)
Special Qualities: Half damage from slashing and piercing weapons, leaping glide, low-light vision, poison flesh, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +8, Will +3
Abilities: Str 4, Dex 15, Con 12, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Jump +18, Swim +5, plus 11 ranks
Feats: 3
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary or school (2-4 swarms)
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: -

Distraction (Ex): Any living creature vulnerable to the piranha swarm's damage that begins its turn with a flying fish swarm in its square is nauseated for 1 round; a DC 15 Fortitude save negates the effect. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Leaping Glide (Ex): A flying fish swarm may leap from the water and glide at a speed of 160 feet for up to 8 rounds. The swarm may reach a height equal to the result of its Jump check, then fly with clumsy manueverability. It may descend, but cannot ascend during this travel.

Poison Flesh (Ex): Ingested, Fort DC 15, 1d4 Con/1d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Skills: A flying fish swarm has a +16 racial bonus on Jump checks, and uses its Dexterity modifier for Jump checks. A flying fish swarm has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

You've got a piranha in your distraction! 

7 ranks in Swim, 4 in Jump?

Alertness, Iron Will, Improved Initiative?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 19, 2009)

Feats sound pretty good to me.


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2009)

Updated.



> They shoot men with flying fish, and when the missile strikes, the victim feels pain in the nape of the neck and loses consciousness.




"Throw Poison Fish" (Su):  An adaro can supernaturally launch a flying fish from one of its accompanying swarms as a deadly missile.  This is a ranged attack with a maximum range of x feet and a x-foot range increment.   A creature damaged by the attack is exposed to the flying fish's poison, as if it had consumed the fish.

_Flying Fish Venom:_ Ingested, Fort DC 15, 1d4 Con/1d4 Con. 

Should we change the secondary damage to unconsciousness?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2009)

I think you're right, and I think we should change the secondary damage in the swarm description, too.  Killing the victim sounds like something the adaro might do as a CDG if not appeased.

Should we add a Summon Flying Fish Swarm ability?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2009)

Sure.   How many swarms should an adaro get?  I'm picturing maybe up to 4?

Any suggestions for a better name than "throw poison fish"?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2009)

4 sounds right.  

Fish Darts?


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## RavinRay (Feb 21, 2009)

Fish darts! I love it.  Now trying whispering it and "darts" becomes "tarts." 

Using living weapons is a plot device designed to add a level of creepiness to a story and it's been done with varying levels of success. I've seen it done more in sci-fi settings, such as the classic GI Joe made-for-TV movie where Cobra was actually the front for a reptilian race (shades of yuan-ti) that used snakes as spears other creatures as weapons and vehicles of transport. In the Star Wars expanded universe the nihilistic Force-resistant Yuuzhan Vong similarly used organic technology


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Fish darts it is!   That beats "fish n' clips" or "filet o' flesh".  

Attempting a few of the other abilities...

Rainbow Walk (Sp):  An adaro may walk upon rainbows.   This functions as the air walk spell (caster level 15th), but only works an hour after rain.

Flying Fish Stride (Ex):  An adaro may "ride" a flying fish swarm.  To do so, the adaro must simply end its movement within the space of a flying fish swarm.  The adaro then moves with the swarm on the swarm's action.  This ability imposes no penalty on either the adaro or the swarm, and the adaro may still take actions on its own turn (including moving).


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2009)

I like those.  Perhaps we should just put in an ability that adaros are immune to swarm damage and therefore distraction of all aquatic swarms.


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Excellent suggestion.

How's this?

Swarmfriend (Ex):  An adaro never suffers deleterious effects when sharing its space with an aquatic swarm.


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## freyar (Feb 23, 2009)

Works for me!


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## Shade (Feb 23, 2009)

Updated.

Damage reduction 10/cold iron?

Skills: 9 at 18 ranks

Feats: 6

Environment: Warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or school (adaro plus 1-4 flying fish swarms)?

Alignment: Usually neutral evil?

Advancement: 16-20 HD (Medium); 21-45 HD (Large)?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 23, 2009)

Agreed to DR, alignment. Feats...

Skill Focus (concentration), Weapon Finesse, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Quick Draw. Make the fish darts iterative with Quick Draw. 

Skills: Concentration, Hide, Knowledge (arcana, nature), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Swim, Tumble


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## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Agreed to all that.

To go with rainbow walking, should these have some sort of air breathing ability?  After all, they can be out of the water for a long time while rainbow walking.  Also, should we clarify whether they can rainbow walk while it is raining?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

I pilfered 8 ranks from Swim (the same amount as the bonus for having a swim speed) and put them into Spellcraft, since it is a spellcaster.



freyar said:


> To go with rainbow walking, should these have some sort of air breathing ability?  After all, they can be out of the water for a long time while rainbow walking.  Also, should we clarify whether they can rainbow walk while it is raining?




An excellent point!   Make 'em amphibious, borrow water-dependent from sahuagin, or give them an air-breathing unique SLA?

Suggested range and range increments for fish darts?


----------



## freyar (Feb 24, 2009)

Let's go with water-dependent, I think.

How about 30 ft, the usual 10 range increments?


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## Shade (Feb 24, 2009)

Updated.

Suggested damage for nose-saw and fish darts?

An adaro stands x feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Adaro speak Aquan, Common, and Sylvan?

Also, thoughts on using rainbow walk in the rain?


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 25, 2009)

2d4 for nose saw, 1d6 for fish darts?


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## Melatuis (Feb 25, 2009)

Rainbow walk - in heavy rain no - in light rain, where you can see Sun Light (light drizzle?) yes.


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2009)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: 12?

Treasure: Standard?

An adaro stands x feet tall and weighs x pounds. 

Adaro speak Aquan and Sylvan?

Equivalent spell level of summon flying fish swarms?


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## freyar (Feb 27, 2009)

5 to 6 ft and 110-250 lb?

6th level spell?  Not quite sure.

The rest sounds right.


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## Shade (Feb 27, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?

I really like the way these guys turned out, considering how little we had to work with.


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## demiurge1138 (Feb 27, 2009)

The damage for the nose saw needs to be dropped to 2d4+1 in the full attack line, but other than that, it looks done!


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## freyar (Mar 1, 2009)

Yeah, pretty good!


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

*Venus Fly-Trap, Giant*
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: See below
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3-8 "bites" (only one "bite" per opponent)
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-1 0 per "bite"
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Drowning; multiple attacks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Concealment
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
SIZE: L (covers 15' to 20' diameter area on ground)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
Attack/Defense Modes: Nil
LEVEL/X.P. VALUE: V/275 + 6/hp for
body; add 36 + 2/hp per set of jaws

Looking very much like a normal venus fly-trap enlarged to twenty times regular size, the giant fly-trap is usually concealed in forest undergrowth so well that there is only a 20% chance of seeing it before one walks into it. The plant's 3-8 jaws are each 3-6 feet across and rest on or near the ground.

The giant fly-trap is activated by contact, as a creature brushes against the "teeth" sticking out from the jaws; the jaws immediately strike out in the direction of the prey with the odds "to hit" of a 2 HD monster, doing 4-10 hp damage and gripping the prey tightly. Prey up to 4' in height and 100 lbs. in weight can be enclosed in a 6' large set of jaws, which will then fill with fluid and drown small-sized victims in 2-8 rounds. The enclosed jaws then fill with a mild acid that dissolves prey in 7-10 days. 

Once "swallowed" by the jaws, a victim may only attack with claws, teeth, or handheld daggers from inside. Each set of jaws will take 2 HD of damage before being destroyed (roll separately for each set), after which the prey inside can escape. Attacks on a set of jaws inflicted from the outside while it holds prey will inflict half the damage on the jaws themselves and the other half on the victim inside. A lost set of jaws will be regenerated by the main body of the plant in two weeks, unless the 6 HD plant body is also destroyed. One may try to force the jaws of the plant open, but a strength roll for bending bars/lifting gates is required and can only be attempted once by a single character for a given set of jaws.

If a set of jaws latches onto a figure larger than they can "swallow," the jaws will continue to cling to the victim, doing 1-4 hp damage per round thereafter for 1-6 turns, and the jaws will then automatically detach themselves from the main body of the plant. The victim, if still alive, can then be pried out at leisure. If the main body of the plant is slain, all held victims will be released in 2-5 rounds from the jaws still attached to the plant.  

Treasure may surround a patch of giant fly-traps, or the plants may have been planted over a treasure hoard for protection. Giant fly-traps take +1 hp per die of damage done by fire attacks.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #89 (1984).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

OK, swallow whole seems a good start on the trap mechanics.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Agreed.  And we need to give them some specific HD per individual plant.


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 4, 2009)

It says in the article that the main body has 6 HD.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Indeed.

We could probably start by downsizing a greenvise to Large and 6 HD, and remove the death fog and acid immunity.  It would look like this...

Large Plant
Hit Dice: 6d8+12 (39 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 0 ft.
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Bite +8 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 3 bites +8 melee (1d6+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, plant traits, woodsense
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6
Skills: 9
Feats: 3
Environment: Temperate or warm forests?
Organization: Solitary, pair or patch (3-8)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: x
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: —


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Good start. Of course, that's currently rather more animate than the Venus Flytrap as written--as written, it's actually a straight conversion of the real world plant, and doesn't make bite attacks or anything--it relies on creatures walking into the traps to trigger them.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Good point.  I suppose we could keep the bite attacks, but note that it only attacks once "triggered".  Perhaps drop the low-light vision and give them a short-ranged tremorsense?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Agreed to blind + tremorsense


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

Should we change the swallow whole mechanics to apply to each individual set of jaws?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Yeah. Each jaw can swallow a Medium or smaller creature, but can only have one thing in them at a time. If someone cuts their way out, it loses access to that trap for... one week? one day? I've grown flytraps, they can regenerate dead traps pretty quickly.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Say 1 week.

On the swallow whole, should this basically be like the mivilorn (milivorn?  I just can't spell that) again?  No gizzard, just a mouth?

Are we doing some kind of option to sever each trap from the body?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Sure.  Borrow the usual sundering text from giant squid?

An opponent can attack a giant squid’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A giant squid’s tentacles have 10 hit points each. If a giant squid is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a giant squid’s tentacles deals 5 points of damage to the creature. A giant squid usually withdraws from combat if it loses five tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2009)

A good start, although in this case, attacking it from the inside should probably stack with sundering and/or kill traps.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

OK, let's try to summarize all this...


Jaws (Ex):  Each of a giant venus fly-trap's jaws may make a single bite attack each round.  It a jaw hits with its bite attack, the fly-trap can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.

With each of its jaws, a giant venus fly-trap can try to swallow a single grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes x points of crushing damage plus x points of acid damage per round from the plant's fluids. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the jaws (AC x), destroying that set of jaws in the process.

An opponent not currently swallowed can attack a giant venus fly-trap's jaws with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A giant venus fly-trap's jaws have x hit points each. If a giant venus fly-trap is currently grappling a target with the jaw that is being attacked, it usually uses another jaw to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a giant venus fly-trap's jaws deals 5 points of damage to the creature. The creature regrows severed jaws in 1 week.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Let's say 10 hp from the inside, which also deals 5 hp to the body (or does that always happen?).  Jaw AC is 12 by normal swallow whole rules.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Sounds good.  Suggested crushing and acid damage?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

You know, we should probably say that a jaw with a critter inside can't make a bite attack.

1d6 + 5 bludgeoning and 1d6 acid?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Damage sounds fair. And yes, having a swallowed opponent precludes making other attacks with that trap.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Revising...

Jaws (Ex): Each of a giant venus fly-trap's jaws may make a single bite attack each round. It a jaw hits with its bite attack, the fly-trap can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can attempt to swallow the foe the following round.  A jaw enganged in a grapple cannot make a bite attack, but the giant venus fly-trap is not considered grapple.

With each of its jaws, a giant venus fly-trap can try to swallow a single grabbed opponent of a smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. Once inside, the opponent takes 1d6+5 points of crushing damage plus 5 points of acid damage per round from the plant's fluids. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 10 points of damage to the jaws (AC 12), destroying that set of jaws (and dealing 5 points of damage to the fly-trap) in the process.

An opponent not currently swallowed can attack a giant venus fly-trap's jaws with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A giant venus fly-trap's jaws have 10 hit points each. If a giant venus fly-trap is currently grappling a target with the jaw that is being attacked, it usually uses another jaw to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a giant venus fly-trap's jaws deals 5 points of damage to the creature. The creature regrows severed jaws in 1 week.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Change "grapple" at the end ofthe 1st paragraph to "grappled" and say "severed or destroyed" in the regrowing line, and I like it.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.



> Prey up to 4' in height and 100 lbs. in weight can be enclosed in a 6' large set of jaws, which will then fill with fluid and drown small-sized victims in 2-8 rounds.




Do we want to do anything with this "drowning"?  



> The giant fly-trap is usually concealed in forest undergrowth so well that there is only a 20% chance of seeing it before one walks into it.




That sounds more like a high racial bonus on Hide checks then camouflage, eh?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> 
> 
> Do we want to do anything with this "drowning"?




Will the standard rules for drowning work?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Probably.  Maybe require less damage to puncture the jaw and remove the threat of drowning, as opposed to completely escaping?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Venus flytraps don't actually drown victims, but crush them. We could go for suffocation rules inside of the traps, though.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

I'm feeling a bit noncommital on the suffocation or drowning. 

I could go for a +4 or even higher Hide bonus in forests or other vegetated areas, though.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

freyar said:


> I'm feeling a bit noncommital on the suffocation or drowning.




Same here.  If anyone feels strongly about it, I'm willing to add it, though.



freyar said:


> I could go for a +4 or even higher Hide bonus in forests or other vegetated areas, though.




I was thinking +8 minimum, probably closer to +16 like treants.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

+12 in warm forests or similar vegetated areas?  They'd be easy to spot in a coniferous forest!  And I don't think they blend in quite as easily, since flytraps look a bit different than most other plants, yes?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

They're native to swamps, actually.


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

Ooops, forgot there was a separate "marsh terrain" entry in the rules.   Ok, then, +12 in swamps with light or heavy undergrowth?  Warm or temperate swapms for the environment entry, then?


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Sounds good.  Updated.

Tremorsense 30 ft.?

Skills: 9
Put all ranks in Hide?  Tremorsense and blind negates the need for Spot and probably Listen checks.

Feats: 3

Treasure: Standard?  (from its past victims, of course)

Advancement: 7-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge); 25-32 HD (Gargantuan)?


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## freyar (Mar 11, 2009)

All those suggestions sound good.

Tremorsense 30 ft?

Weapon Focus (bite), Combat Reflexes, Iron Will?  Or maybe Lightning Reflexes, not sure.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Let's go Iron Will. This thing is immobile. Might want to drop treasure to half standard. Agreed to all skills in Hide.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Updated.



			
				[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus_Fly-trap" said:
			
		

> Wikipedia[/URL]]Small in stature and slow growing, the Venus flytrap tolerates fire well, and depends on periodic burning to suppress its competition.[9] Fire suppression threatens its future in the wild.[10] It survives in wet sandy and peaty soils.




Resistance to fire 5?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 11, 2009)

Fire resistance is sensible.


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## Shade (Mar 11, 2009)

Cr 4?


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Maybe CR 3.  If it gets surprise, it could whack a low-level character, but it's quite vulnerable to ranged attacks.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Good point.  CR 3 it is!


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

Seems done in that case!


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

Indeed!

*Bohun Tree*
FREQUENCY: Rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5 (main trunk)
MOVE: Nil
HIT DICE: 10 (main trunk)
% IN LAIR: 100%
TREASURE TYPE: C
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1-6 thorn missiles
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-5 per thorn
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poisonous fruit;
missiles; root drain; multiple attacks
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Root system; immune to will-force spells
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Standard
INTELLIGENCE: Average
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
SIZE: L (trunk 30'-60' tall, branches
and roots up to 120' long)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
AttacklDefense Modes: Nil
LEVEL1X.P. VALUE: VII/2850 + 14/hp

The bohun tree, or "tree of death," is found only in deep woodlands. Such trees are always solitary, but are surrounded by other varieties of trees on which they feed. The bohun tree, usually brownish grey or greenish grey, can be distinguished by its massive trunk and unique blossoms.

The bohun tree's branches usually start 10 to 12 feet above the ground and spread out horizontally from the top of the trunk; on them hang thick clusters of dark red, luscious fruits. These smooth- and soft-skinned fruits resemble giant grapes, and if bruised or cut open, they exude a vapor within a 60' radius that either induces sleep (80% chance), paralyzes the lungs and slays by suffocation (10%), or has no effect (10%) This effect (or lack of one) is determined separately for each fruit that bursts. A would-be victim is entitled to a save vs. poison to avoid either of the damaging effects. The tree will deliberately cause 1 fruit to burst every other round if it is attacked.  The vapor's odor resembles that of' crushed apples or fresh cider.

The flesh of the fruit may be fatally poisonous if ingested (eater must save vs. poison at -4), causing painful acidic reactions within the stomach. A victim will usually go into violent convulsions that will continue even after he has fainted from the pain, lasting 2-8 turns until death occurs. Ninety percent of all elves, centaurs, and satyrs are immune to the effects of the tree's poison. Pixies, treants, stirges, and undead creatures are entirely immune.

Against creatures that approach too closely, a bohun tree directs the thorns that grow on its branches between fruit clusters. These 18-inch-long thorns are flexible, sharp, and weighted so they will fly true. They are fired from the tree by means of sap pressure. A bohun tree has 30-60 thorns at any time, and can regrow 1-4 per day after some have been fired. It hurls these with deadly accuracy and force (as a 10 HD monster hurling missiles) up to 9 ", firing 1-6 per round at targets within range (medium and long range modifiers apply). The thorns do 2-5 points of damage each.

The bohun tree has keen eyesight; hundreds of compound eyes stud fissures in the trunk and grow amid the fruit clusters. It uses this eyesight to home in on the targets of its thorn attacks and also to locate assailants that it can entrap with its roots. The bohun tree can send roots tunneling through the ground, breaking the surface where a target is located and (on a successful "to hit" roll) binding the target's arms or legs (50% chance of either). A target immobilized in this way is more likely to be hit by attacks from the tree's thorns (+4 to hit vs. any target in range). Only one root will attach to any target, and a maximum of 5-8 roots will attack in this way during any single combat episode. A root is AC 9 and has an effective strength of 17 so that its grip can be broken only by a character or creature with a strength of 18 or greater. Each root that attaches to a target will take 2-7 points of damage (determine separately for each root) before being severed.

A bohun tree will cease combat when all of its thorns are gone or after the loss of all of its attacking roots. It can be slain if the main trunk takes damage equal to its hit points (root damage does not count in this total), or by the application of a power word kill spell.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #89 (1984).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 12, 2009)

The "random effects of the fruit" need to be standardized, methinks.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The "random effects of the fruit" need to be standardized, methinks.



Agreed.

Here's another one with manticore-like spikes!  Also seems like it has an entangle-like ability.


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## Shade (Mar 12, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> The "random effects of the fruit" need to be standardized, methinks.




The simplest way to standardize and retail all three effects is to make it poisonous gas, with initial damage sleep, secondary damage suffocation.


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## freyar (Mar 12, 2009)

That sounds right, but how many rounds do they have to hold their breath?


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

That is a good question.  Let's revisit that after working out the basics.



> SIZE: L (trunk 30'-60' tall, branches and roots up to 120' long)




Start at Huge or Gargantuan?  It might be nice to go Gargantuan, as that is an underserved niche.

Ability scores of similar "tree monsters"...

Ironmaw (H): Str 30, Dex 9, Con 23, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 14
Octopus Tree (H): Str 30, Dex 3, Con 20, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 15
Orcwort (C): Str 39, Dex 7, Con 29, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
Dark Tree (H): Str 28, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 5, Wis 10, Cha 7
Ancient Night Twist (H): Str 45, Dex 6, Con 34, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 23
Flesh-Mulcher Tree (H): Str 20, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 10, Cha 4
Bonetree (H): Str 10, Dex 10, Con 20, Int -, Wis 10, Cha 2
Death's Head Tree (H): Str 20, Dex 6, Con 18, Int 3, Wis 5, Cha 1


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

Gargantuan.


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## Shade (Mar 13, 2009)

Cool.  So how about...

Str 34, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10?

I didn't want to penalized Dex due to the "deadly accuracy" of their fired thorns.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 13, 2009)

Ability scores appeal.


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## freyar (Mar 14, 2009)

Seem good to me too.


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## JiCi (Mar 16, 2009)

I see this plant can strike with its roots... the Crystal Sunflower in a Mind's Eye article had the similar abilities, so we could adapt that to this monster as well.
--
*Reach (Ex)*: The bohun tree has an extended reach with its root stab. Its normal reach is doubled for this attack.

*Root Stab (Ex)*: The bohun tree's primary attack is to stab with a sharpened root from under the ground. Unless the target has a means of seeing through the ground or has the tremorsense special quality, treat this attack as if the attacker is unseen. The target cannot use its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, and the bohun tree gains a +2 bonus on the attack roll.
--

These could do the trick:

*Thorn barrage (Ex)*: The bohun tree can launch up to 6 thorns as a full round action. A typical bohun tree has 1d4+2 x 10 thorns at any time, and thorns regrow after 1d4 days. Thorns have a range increment of 50 ft.

*Fruit barrage (Ex)*: When thorns have been used up, the bohun tree can as a desperate measure launch its fruits instead. treat this attack as a greande-like thrown weapon, and targets hit suffer the effects of the fruits as they bursts on impact.

Hope that helps !


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Hmmm, instead of root stab, I think the original reads something like an entangle effect.  What do you think?


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## Zarahon (Mar 17, 2009)

Wait, sorry to barge in on this conversion, but was overjoyed to see this request I made being  developed in each post! I had a mild suggestion at the last minute: what about a strength check requirement to pry the jaws apart from the outside if the person didn't want to accidently injure his pal trapped inside its jaws? Or would that just be a simple roll against its str score and I'm just thinking in 2nd edition rules?


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## JiCi (Mar 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, instead of root stab, I think the original reads something like an entangle effect.  What do you think?



Well, root _stab_ is only the name of the attack for the Crystal Sunflower, yet it only indicates according to what I've found that it only treats that attacker as unseen. It doesn't say that the root deals X points of damage of X type. A root _snare_ works as well, like this: "root +X melee (grab)".

Now that you mention it, if the roots act as an entangle effect, should we just instead replace it with Constrict ?


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

Zarahon said:
			
		

> Wait, sorry to barge in on this conversion, but was overjoyed to see this request I made being developed in each post! I had a mild suggestion at the last minute: what about a strength check requirement to pry the jaws apart from the outside if the person didn't want to accidently injure his pal trapped inside its jaws? Or would that just be a simple roll against its str score and I'm just thinking in 2nd edition rules?




Did you mean the flytrap?  Now that you mention it, we should put in a line about how a sunder attempt could injure a creature trapped by the jaws.  And allow for an extra grappler to open currently closed jaws.  Shade, what do you think?



			
				JiCi said:
			
		

> Well, root stab is only the name of the attack for the Crystal Sunflower, yet it only indicates according to what I've found that it only treats that attacker as unseen. It doesn't say that the root deals X points of damage of X type. A root snare works as well, like this: "root +X melee (grab)".
> 
> Now that you mention it, if the roots act as an entangle effect, should we just instead replace it with Constrict ?



Well, I was actually thinking of replacing it with entangle, but as an Ex instead of Sp ability.  The -4 Dex penalty would provide the loss of AC to the thorn attack.


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## JiCi (Mar 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, I was actually thinking of replacing it with entangle, but as an Ex instead of Sp ability.  The -4 Dex penalty would provide the loss of AC to the thorn attack.



How about the effect of _Briar Web_ instead ? It does the same as _entangle_ but does 1d4 points of damage per round.


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Did you mean the flytrap?  Now that you mention it, we should put in a line about how a sunder attempt could injure a creature trapped by the jaws.  And allow for an extra grappler to open currently closed jaws.  Shade, what do you think?




Yeah, good suggestions guys!



freyar said:


> Well, I was actually thinking of replacing it with entangle, but as an Ex instead of Sp ability.  The -4 Dex penalty would provide the loss of AC to the thorn attack.






JiCi said:


> How about the effect of _Briar Web_ instead ? It does the same as _entangle_ but does 1d4 points of damage per round.




The original didn't deal any damage, but I don't mind "jazzing them up" a bit.


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## freyar (Mar 17, 2009)

I'm ok with going for the 1d4 per round from the root-entangle, sure!


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## Shade (Mar 17, 2009)

Updated the fly-trap.

Does that sufficiently cover the suggested mechanics?


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## JiCi (Mar 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> The original didn't deal any damage, but I don't mind "jazzing them up" a bit.



Well, I'm kinda comparing to other plants whose grapple-like abilities deal damage. Sure the spell _entangle_ ensnares targets only, but being a tree, it would probably crush its victims to pulp with its roots so it can absorb them with these.

It's like the octopus and squid deal no initial damage with their arms, but their giant versions do. See my point ?

Huh, aside from launching thorns, root grabbing and poisonous fruits, what does the bohun tree has up its arsenal ? Does it have a slam attack like a treant or something ?


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

On the flytrap: how about we say "a 50% chance of dealing 1/2 the damage to the trapped victim"?  Then I like it.

The bohun really seems like a tree with few mobile parts.  So I'd say no to a slam, or at most a very weak slam from the branches that might whip around to launch thorns (maybe 1d4+1/2 Str as a secondary natural attack).


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.

It does not appear to have any melee attacks (other than the roots).

Speaking of the roots, after re-reading the original text, I'm wondering if the roots shouldn't function more like a squid's tentacles, with improved grab and constrict...


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## freyar (Mar 18, 2009)

I could see Imp Grab and constrict.  Minor damage on the root attack or just a touch attack to set up the Grab?


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## JiCi (Mar 18, 2009)

You might want to add this:

Attack: Thorn + ranged (xdx+x) or fruit + ranged (xdx+x)
Full Attack: 6 thorns + ranged (xdx+x) or x fruits + ranged (xdx+x)

As for the roots, how about using the Crystal Sunflower ability to treat targets as "unaware of an unseen attacker" when the tree attacks with its roots ?


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## freyar (Mar 19, 2009)

If we go with the attack, imp grab, constrict for the roots, I'd agree to the unseen attack rule.


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

I agree with all that.

Updating...

Attack: Root +15 melee (2d6+12) or 6 thorns +3 ranged (1d4+12) or fruit +3 ranged (see text)
Full Attack: 8 roots +15 melee (2d6+12) or 6 thorns +3 ranged (1d4+12) or x fruits +3 ranged (see text)

An opponent can attack a bohun tree's roots with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A bohun tree's roots have 10 hit points each. If a bohun tree is currently grappling a target with the root that is being attacked, it usually uses another root to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a bohun tree's roots deals 5 points of damage to the creature. The creature regrows severed limbs in 1d10+10 days.

Burrowing Roots (Ex): The bohun tree sends its roots burrowing through the ground, bursting forth to grab prey. Unless the target has a means of seeing through the ground or has the tremorsense special quality, treat this attack as if the attacker is unseen. The target loses its Dexterity bonus (if any) to Armor Class, and the bohun tree gains a +2 bonus on the attack roll.

Constrict (Ex): A bohun treat deals 2d6+12 points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a bohun treat must hit an opponent of any size with a root attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.


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## JiCi (Mar 19, 2009)

Looks good to me, and a bohun *treat* looks tasty.

Huh... what type of damage do the roots do ? blungeoning, piercing, both ?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Mmmm...that's a tasty typo!  

Bludgeoning.  Essentially, they're tentacles with a different name.  But we should probably note that in the text somewhere.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 19, 2009)

I'd lower the damage a bit. These guys have a very high output. Maybe 1d8?


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## Shade (Mar 19, 2009)

Good point.

Updated.

Number of fruits in fruit barrage?

Duration for sleep from fruit?  Normal suffocation rules for secondary damage (In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates)?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

6 fruits?

I'm going to say 3d6 round for sleep.  Suffocation works by requiring the first DC 10 Con check at the onset of secondary damage.  The victim can breathe again when waking.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

That works.  Updated.

Should we add DR/slashing like treants?

Let's revisit the fruit barrage...



> The tree will deliberately cause 1 fruit to burst every other round if it is attacked.




Since it has such a large burst area, I'd recommend we cut it back to tossing a single fruit at a time.  In fact, I'm not sure if it needs to be tossed at all, but rather just bursts on its stem.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 20, 2009)

Bursting on the stem works. Agreed to DR/slashing. 5?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

DR 5 is good.

Generally the fruit just bursts on the tree and is only thrown in the desperation barrage.

A bohun tree starts combat with 4d8 fruits?  And they can regrow in 1d6 days?


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

That sounds like a good compromise.  Updated.



> Ninety percent of all elves, centaurs, and satyrs are immune to the effects of the tree's poison. Pixies, treants, stirges, and undead creatures are entirely immune.




Elves and fey gain a +2 racial bonus on saves vs. the fruit poison?   Undead and plants (what about pesticide?) are already immune to poison.  Stirges seem to much of an exception to bother.



> The bohun tree has keen eyesight; hundreds of compound eyes stud fissures in the trunk and grow amid the fruit clusters. It uses this eyesight to home in on the targets of its thorn attacks and also to locate assailants that it can entrap with its roots.




All-around vision, racial bonus on Spot checks, and maybe superior low-light vision?


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## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Hmm, does the poison count as a sleep effect?  If so, elves are immune b/c they can't sleep.  Possibly the same for fey?  I agree that stirges are too small of a corner case.

Yes to all three vision effects.


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## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Good point on the elves.  Fey, however eat, sleep, and breathe.


----------



## freyar (Mar 20, 2009)

Hmmm, let's just give them immunity, then.  That seems more in line with the original intent.


----------



## Shade (Mar 20, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 26

Feats: 4


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## freyar (Mar 21, 2009)

Let's go for Spot and Listen.  (Are we putting in an extra racial Spot bonus?)

Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Alertness, Ability Focus (bohun tree fruit gas)?  Does that boost the DC too much?


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## Shade (Mar 23, 2009)

Hmmm..DC 25 might be a tad brutal for a 10-HD creature.

I'm open-minded about the Spot bonus.   A gibbering mouther has more eyes than a beholder, and still only has the +4 bonus from all-around vision.  Ditto for the overseer.


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Let's not do the extra Spot bonus.

If we go for Ability Focus, we might think about boosting the CR.  If everybody in a party falls asleep, it could be quite deadly.  The problem is figuring out another good feat for an immobile monster.  Weapon Focus (roots)?


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## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Weapon Focus (thorns) is probably a better choice, since they have such a poor attack modifier with them.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 24, 2009)

Agreed to Weapon Focus (thorn)


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate forests?

Challenge Rating: 9?

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Usually neutral evil?

Advancement: 11-30 HD (Gargantuan); 31-50 HD (Colossal)?

A bohun tree stands 30 to 60 feet tall, with a “trunk” about x feet in diameter. Bark coloration ranges from brownish gray to greenish gray.

Bohun trees do not speak but understand Sylvan and Treant?


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## freyar (Mar 24, 2009)

Agreed to all that.  4 ft trunk, 9000 to 20000 lb?


----------



## Shade (Mar 24, 2009)

Trunk size sounds good.  We can probably leave off weight since they are immobile.

Updated.

Are we missing anything?


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## JiCi (Mar 25, 2009)

Huh... on what occasion could a fruit be pierced ? does an attacker have a chance of piercing the fruit while using a piercing weapon ? or is it only if picked and eaten ?


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## freyar (Mar 25, 2009)

I think normally the tree chooses to "pop" one of its own fruit.  But if it's eaten, that would release the gas, too.  I'm not sure about the chance from attacking, since I think the fruit is in the branches and most attacks would be directed toward the trunk.  I could be convinced, though.


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Agreed.  However, I could see a situation where an archer might want to "pop" all the fruit before moving into range, so I suppose we could allow such a mechanic.

Suggestions?


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

1 point of piercing damage pops the fruit, fruit AC is tree Dex + size modifier for Diminutive (maybe Fine) fruit?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

Great!  How's this?

Fruit (Ex): If the skin of a bohun tree's fruit is pierced, it releases poisonous gas in a 60-foot-radius burst. Generally, a bonun tree simply bursts a single attached fruit, but can hurl fruit in a desperation barrage. A bohun tree has 4d8 fruits at any time. Spent fruit regrows in 1d6 days.  An opponent may target an individual fruit (AC 14). A piercing attack dealing at least 1 point of damage will cause the fruit to burst.  This is a dangerous tactic unless done from distance, for the deadly gas is released.


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2009)

In that case, let's move on...

*Giant Rainbow Plant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate and tropical forests and swamps
INTELLIGENCE: Semi
NO. APPEARING: 1-4
ARMOR CLASS: 7
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: See text
DAMAGE/ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See text
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Dazzling
SIZE: L
MORALE: Elite (13)
XP VALUE: 3,000

The giant rainbow plant has a woody, trunklike stem from which grow 5-20 branchlike leaves that each end in a knobby tip. The stem grows up to 10’ In height, with each leaf half the height of the plant in length.

Combat: Like the giant sundew, this plant has developed an awareness of its surroundings and is selective about its prey. It will not attack anything under 4’ in height. The leaves and the stem are coated in a thick mucilage produced by glands throughout the plant. This mucilage gives the plant a shimmering appearance during the day, and under intense light causes a nonmagical dazzling effect on those who view and fail to save vs. petrification.  The effect lasts for 1-4 rounds and makes the dazzled creature -2 on attack rolls.

Also like the giant sundew, the rainbow plant strikes with its leaves, with 1-6 branches lashing out at each victim within reach and striking for 1-2 hp damage from the knob at the end of each leaf. Each leaf adheres to the object struck, reducing the victim’s ability attack by -1 for every four leaves adhering to him. If the plant rolls a natural 20, the plant’s leaf struck the victim’s head, clogging the victim’s mouth and nostrils with mucilage. Suffocation results in 1-4 rounds unless the sap is dissolved with vinegar or alcohol, The leaves also produce a mild enzyme causing 1 hp damage per round per leaf unless the leaf is broken. The chance for breaking a leaf is the same as for opening doors, checking for each leaf separately. Fiery attacks and missiles do only half damage because of the plant’s mucilage covering. Blunt weapons do no damage.

Habitat/Ecology: The plant favors sandy soils under moist conditions, though it may die back during drought seasons, going into a dormant state until conditions improve. A few druids and wizards are said to keep such plants as guardians, but this is a very rare practice.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #167 (1991).


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## freyar (Mar 26, 2009)

Interesting.  Not sure if I want to keep the suffocation or not for these, or at least change the bit about dissolving being the only way to avoid suffocating.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2009)

Here's the real rainbow plant:
Byblis (plant) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Downsize red sundew from MM2 to Large to find ability scores?

Red Sundew (H): Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8
Red Sundew (L): Str 21, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 8


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 27, 2009)

Ability scores appeal. Agreed to toning down suffocation--I've grown Byblis, and they're not as sticky as sundews.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2009)

Agreed to the ability scores.  

So... keep suffocation but allow to escape as a grapple with a set DC (or via Str/Escape Artist checks)?  I should go look up the Red Sundew.


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## Shade (Mar 30, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Combat: Like the giant sundew, this plant has developed an awareness of its surroundings and is selective about its prey. It will not attack anything under 4’ in height.




The red sundew has the (maligned around these parts) woodsense ability.  Change to blindsense/tremorsense?



> The leaves and the stem are coated in a thick mucilage produced by glands throughout the plant. This mucilage gives the plant a shimmering appearance during the day, and under intense light causes a nonmagical dazzling effect on those who view and fail to save vs. petrification.  The effect lasts for 1-4 rounds and makes the dazzled creature -2 on attack rolls.




Function like a gaze attack that only works in areas of bright illumination?



> Also like the giant sundew, the rainbow plant strikes with its leaves, with 1-6 branches lashing out at each victim within reach and striking for 1-2 hp damage from the knob at the end of each leaf.




Red sundews have 4 slam attacks at 1d6+Str.  Stick with 4 attacks here, but reduce damage to 1d4 or less?   Provide special advancement rules that additional attacks are gained at HD (or size) milestones?



> Each leaf adheres to the object struck, reducing the victim’s ability attack by -1 for every four leaves adhering to him. If the plant rolls a natural 20, the plant’s leaf struck the victim’s head, clogging the victim’s mouth and nostrils with mucilage. Suffocation results in 1-4 rounds unless the sap is dissolved with vinegar or alcohol, The leaves also produce a mild enzyme causing 1 hp damage per round per leaf unless the leaf is broken. The chance for breaking a leaf is the same as for opening doors, checking for each leaf separately.




The red sundew has this for comparison...

Sticky Acid (Ex): A red sundew is coated with a thick, acidic goo. Any creature or object that makes physical contact with the monster is smeared with this sticky acid, which deals 1d6 points of acid damage per round until removed. Thus, any successful hit from or against the red sundew automatically deals acid damage to the opponent or the opponent's weapon, depending upon the point of contact. Sticky acid remains on a creature or object for 1d4+1 rounds. It cannot be scraped off, but it can be washed off with a full-round action and at least 1 gallon of water.



> Fiery attacks and missiles do only half damage because of the plant’s mucilage covering. Blunt weapons do no damage.




Resistance to fire and DR/slashing?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 30, 2009)

Agreed to dazzling gaze, blindsight, resistance to fire, DR/slashing and reduced damage.


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

I'd agree too.


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2009)

Updated.

How do we want to handle the adhering leaves and resultant suffocation?


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## freyar (Mar 31, 2009)

How about using the raggamofyn technique again, with the adhesive granting a grapple bonus?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2009)

That could work.  Also, it sounds like it doesn't always grab the mouth, so it might work like the farastu's slime on a non-critical hit...

Adhesive Slime (Ex): The thick, tarlike slime that farstus secrete acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast creatures or items that touch it. Farastus have a +8 racial bonus on grapple checks and disarm checks due to their adhesive slime. A farastu frequently chooses to grapple its foes and then maul its enemies with natural attacks.

A weapon that strikes a farastu is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a Reflex save (DC 17). Prying off a stuck weapon requires a Strength check (DC 17). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Lantern oil or some other flammable oil (such as alchemist's fire) dissolves the farstu's adhesive slime; the creature requires 10 minutes to renew its adhesive coating if doused with oil. A farastu can dissolve its adhesive slime at will, and the substance breaks down 1 minute after the creature dies.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

Good point.  Need to think about this a little more.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 2, 2009)

Adhesive sounds good. I don't know if we need it to be suffocating, certainly.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2009)

I think we should go with adhesive as farastu (maybe minus the bit about weapons sticking, since it seems the adhesive isn't all over the whole plant?) and suffocation as the ragamoffyn.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 2, 2009)

Sounds fair to me.


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2009)

Hmmm...



> Each leaf adheres to the object struck, reducing the victim’s ability attack by -1 for every four leaves adhering to him. If the plant rolls a natural 20, the plant’s leaf struck the victim’s head, clogging the victim’s mouth and nostrils with mucilage. Suffocation results in 1-4 rounds unless the sap is dissolved with vinegar or alcohol, The leaves also produce a mild enzyme causing 1 hp damage per round per leaf unless the leaf is broken. The chance for breaking a leaf is the same as for opening doors, checking for each leaf separately.




Looking at that again, I wonder if it wouldn't be better modeled off the illithid's improved grab ability, where additional tentacles (or leaves in this case) improve the creature's grapple bonus.   Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 6, 2009)

-1 per four? That's sort of silly. While I see what you're getting at with illithid grab, we should modify it a bit. Perhaps it works as adhesive, but the DC increases with every leaf hit, rather than multiple rolls?


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## freyar (Apr 6, 2009)

Yeah, I could see adding to the grapple bonus per leaf.  But I still kind of like the ragamoffyn-like suffocation mechanism.


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## Shade (Apr 10, 2009)

Here's a first stab at the abilities...

Adhesive Leaves (Ex): Giant rainbow plants have a +8 racial bonus on grapple checks and disarm checks due to their adhesive coating. 

A weapon that strikes a giant rainbow plant is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC X Reflex save. Prying off a stuck weapon requires a DC X Strength check. The check and save DCs are Constitution-based.

Alcohol or vinegar dissolves the adhesive; the creature requires 10 minutes to renew its adhesive coating if doused with either of these substances. A giant rainbow plant can dissolve its adhesive at will, and the substance breaks down 1 minute after the creature dies. 

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a giant rainbow plant must hit with a slam attack. It can attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and may attempt to suffocate.

Due to the adhesive nature of its leaves, a giant rainbow plant gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every leaf that was attached at the beginning of the opponent's turn.

Suffocate (Ex): A giant rainbow plant can asphyxiate a wrapped creature by drawing the air from its lungs. This attack automatically deals 1d4 points of damage per round.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 10, 2009)

That looks pretty good to me.


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## freyar (Apr 11, 2009)

Same here.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Updated.

Fill in the x's:  
Blindsight x ft., damage reduction x/slashing, resistance to fire x

Skills: 9

Feats: 3


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 13, 2009)

Blindsight 60 feet, DR 5, resist fire 10.


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Those appeal.

Skills: 9
Listen?

Feats: 3
Ability Focus (adhesive leaves)? Weapon Focus (slam)?  Improved Initiative?


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## freyar (Apr 13, 2009)

I still can't figure out good skills for immobile plants that don't need Spot or Listen.  Hmmm.

Ability Focus (dazzling appearance)...


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## Shade (Apr 13, 2009)

Ninja strike!    (We need a ninja emoticon)


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 14, 2009)

Listen works for the skill.


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## Shade (Apr 14, 2009)

So max ranks in Listen.

Which three of the following?
Ability Focus (adhesive leaves), Ability Focus (dazzling appearance), Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (slam)


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## freyar (Apr 14, 2009)

Weapon Focus is a little boring, if effective.  Let's drop that.

CR 4?  Lowish hp and AC, but reasonable special defenses and interesting attacks to make up for it?


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## Shade (Apr 15, 2009)

Updated.

Environment: Temperate and warm forests and marshes?

Organization: Solitary or x (2-4)

Treasure: x  (half standard for incidental?)

Advancement: x


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## freyar (Apr 15, 2009)

Yes.

stand?

Yes.

7-16 HD (Large); 17-24 HD (Huge); 25-32 HD (Gargantuan) like venus fly-trap?


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2009)

Updated.

Finished?


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## freyar (Apr 28, 2009)

Looks good!


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## JiCi (Apr 28, 2009)

"Advanced Giant Rainbow Plants

A giant rainbow plant gains an additional slam attack for *each x additional Hit Dice*."

How about 3 HD ?


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

JiCi said:


> "Advanced Giant Rainbow Plants
> 
> A giant rainbow plant gains an additional slam attack for *each x additional Hit Dice*."
> 
> How about 3 HD ?



Good catch!  3 sounds about right, too.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2009)

Agreed.  Updated.


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2009)

Must be done now.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

This next one isn't in the true dragons thread since it seems more like a linnorm or landwyrm in terms of advancement.

*Swamp Wyrm*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Subarctic/Lakes(guivre); Temperate and Subtropical/Swamp (knucker)
FREQUENCY Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: G
ALIGNMENT: Neutral evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 (10% of 2)
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 9, Sw 15
HIT DICE: 8
THAC0: 13
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1 or 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 4-16 or 4-16/2-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon, constriction,surprise
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Half damage fromfire-based (guivre) or frost-based (knucker) attacks
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: G (30’-40’ long)
MORALE: Steady (12)
XP VALUE: 5,000

Swamp wyrms are huge legless reptiles that are distantly related to dragons; they also appear to be related to constrictor snakes. Their bodies are serpentine, but their heads are quite draconic. Swamp wyrms come in two distinct though similar species: the knucker and the guivre (giv-ray), names given them before it was realized that they were so closely related. The olive-hued knucker prefers warm climates, while the pale-green guivre loves cold ones. They can breathe water or air with equal ease.

Combat: The swamp wyrm’s favored hunting method is to lie barely submerged in murky water (it can see perfectly through it), then grab anything that comes down to drink. This tactic gives it a +2 bonus to surprise. A swamp wyrm fights using a bite-constriction combination. If it can successfully bite an opponent, it then attempts to wrap its body around the foe (requiring another attack roll). A successful hit means the victim has been caught in the swamp wyrm’s coils and can be crushed starting on the following round; the victim can also be bitten with a +4 to the swamp wyrm’s attack roll, the victim gaining no dexterity or shield bonuses, once per round thereafter. 

Each wyrm also has a breath weapon: a 30’ cone, 5’ wide at the base and 15’ at its terminus. The breath weapon does 4-40 hp damage (half with a saving throw vs. breath weapons). The guivre (surprisingly) breathes fire, and the knucker breathes frost. In general, the breath weapon will be saved for emergencies or obviously dangerous opponents, as it can be used only three times a day. A swamp wyrm will also take only half damage from attack forms similar to its breath weapon (i.e., fire and heat for the guivre, and frost and cold for the knucker).

Habitat/Society: Swamp wyrms make their homes in remote wilderness areas, in small, still lakes called either “knucker holes” or “guivre pools”. depending on the occupant. The water temperature is strongly affected by a magical secretion from the swamp wyrms’ scales. Guivre pools are always steaming hot, melting snow and ice around them like hot springs, while knucker holes are chill, fog-shrouded, and sometimes iced over, killing all vegetation around them. Stagnant waters from these lakes are poisonous to all except swamp wyrms and other reptiles, thanks to the secretion; those drinking the water must save vs. poison or suffer 1-4 hp damage per round for 1-6 rounds.

Like dragons, swamp wyrms prefer to live alone, coming together only in the spring for mating though they rarely if ever fight with one another. Male and female swamp wyrms of either species collect treasure hoards, which they display to all other visiting wyrms. The wyrms with the most treasure in their hoards have first pick of the available members of the opposite sex for purposes of mating, leading many sages to suppose that dragons gather treasure for similar reasons (although this isn.t particularly true). This seems to be the only reason they bother to collect treasure, as they never use it to bargain, either to gain allies or to save their own lives. Swamp wyrms give birth to 1-4 young three months after mating. Swamp wyrms speak only a very crude language (dubbed Wyrmic), reserving their brain power for discovering clever ways to capture prey. They will eagerly fight all other large creatures besides themselves, including dragons, in order to gain more treasure.

Ecology: Swamp wyrms are fierce carnivores, living on any creatures that come too near their pools. They often slither into nearby bodies of water, even oceans to hunt food (most animals soon learn to avoid the poisonous lakes these creatures inhabit). A few prefer to live near weakly defended civilized areas, or at least ones near major rivers that lead to these places, to assure plenty of human or humanoid prey and the domestic animals associated with them. Unlike dragons, swamp wyrms eat frequently, destroying all wildlife, and they are sometimes considered more of a problem than certain dragons are. Swamp wyrms rest at the top of their local food chain, but they actively destroy the local ecology around their lakes and ravage the wildlife nearby. Adventurers and large monsters are their only true enemies, but most swamp wyrms live where neither foe is in great supply. Numerous uses have been rumored for their body parts, particularly the many glands under their scales that give off the water-affecting secretion.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #182 (1992).


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Borrow murkvision from the shark-kin?

Make the knucker the main entry, and list the guivre as a variant?

Ability scores of other Gargantuan "lesser" dragons...

Desert Landwyrm: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 24, Int 21, Wis 17, Cha 20
Swamp Landwyrm: Str 39, Dex 10, Con 26, Int 17, Wis 17, Cha 24
Firedrake: Str 39, Dex 10, Con 28, Int 11, Wis 20, Cha 21
Storm Drake: Str 35, Dex 13, Con 24, Int 15, Wis 19, Cha 20
Womrdrake: Str 38, Dex 16, Con 27, Int 22, Wis 20, Cha 22

These guys have Int Low (5-7).


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Agreed to murkvishion and guivre sidebar variant.

Since they're Gargantuan, should we boost HD a little?  8HD is considerably less than even the Gargantuan vermin in the SRD.  When we've decided that, I'll have a better idea on abilities (though I agree on the comparison to landwyrms).


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Sure!  Hit Dice of the lesser dragons mentioned above...

Desert Landwyrm: 32 HD
Swamp Landwyrm: 36 HD
Firedrake: 28 HD
Storm Drake: 30 HD
Womrdrake: 26 HD

That will entail a huge HD boost, which is acceptable to me.  Alternatively, we could start 'em at Huge with HD closer to the original, and advance well into Gargantuan.   Preferences?


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Let's start Huge but still boost to 18-20 HD.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Sure.   In that case, here are the scores of Huge lesser dragons...

Abyssal Drake: Str 29, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 6, Wis 15, Cha 15
Wardrake: Str 23, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 13
Hill Landwyrm: Str 29, Dex 10, Con 20, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 12
Jungle Landwyrm: Str 31, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 17, Wis 21, Cha 16
Tundra Landwyrm: Str 27, Dex 10, Con 22, Int 9, Wis 13, Cha 12


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Hmmm, what about Str 27, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 12?


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

Feats: Constrict and Improved grab  stand out for me.  Add in Improved Initiative for this "Surprise" ability.   If worse comes to work toss it in as bonus feat.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Right, those, the breath weapon, and the poisonous secretion will be the main abilities, I think.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Should we give it a tail slap attack to initiate constrict (like the sea serpents), or transfer to coils after biting like some creatures?


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

transfer to coils after a bite, these things lay in wait then pounce with their mouth. Says so right in their combat log as they bite something then transfer it down to constrict and crush the enemy.

These are more snakelike than dragonlike.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's start Huge but still boost to 18-20 HD.  What do you think?




Huge sounds good to me, it's appropriate for a 30-40' serpentine monster.

As for the Hit Dice, I'm a bit divided. If you want to give it True Dragon scale Hit Dice I agree something like 16-20HD seems appropriate.

However, 8 Hit Dice is in the same ballpark as a Giant Constrictor Snake (11HD), a Huge Monstrous Centipede (6HD) or a one-size category downscaled Purple Worm (which would be around 8HD, as a Gargantuan one's 16HD), the much stockier Dragon Turtle is only 12HD and a Dragonne advanced to Huge is only 13HD.

So, I'd be tempted to leave it at 8HD but give it a wide Advancement range, say 9-16HD (Huge), 17-32 (Gargantuan).


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2009)

freyar said:


> Hmmm, what about Str 27, Dex 12, Con 20, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 12?




I'd be tempted to bump its Dex up to 17, the same as a Giant Constrictor Snake, and drop its Int to 6, the same as a Dragonne. But then, I don't much care for draconic creatures with mediocre dexterity.


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## Cleon (Jun 2, 2009)

Shade said:


> Should we give it a tail slap attack to initiate constrict (like the sea serpents), or transfer to coils after biting like some creatures?




I agree with Leopold, Improved grab bite and then Constrict like a snake, plus a breath weapon. The write-up indicates they can constrict one victim in their coils while biting another, I think that'd better carry over into the 3E version.

Now I was wondering, since its magical secretions can cause a whole pool to boil, wouldn't they burn creatures that touch them? If I was writing the thing up from scratch I'd be tempted to have them do additional fire (or cold) damage to anything they grapple/Constrict.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Huge sounds good to me, it's appropriate for a 30-40' serpentine monster.
> 
> As for the Hit Dice, I'm a bit divided. If you want to give it True Dragon scale Hit Dice I agree something like 16-20HD seems appropriate.
> 
> ...




Dragonnes become Huge at 13HD.  I don't think these should be as low on HD as giant animals or vermin, either.  So I'd be willing to go as low as 13HD, even though I'd prefer higher.



Cleon said:


> I'd be tempted to bump its Dex up to 17, the same as a Giant Constrictor Snake, and drop its Int to 6, the same as a Dragonne. But then, I don't much care for draconic creatures with mediocre dexterity.




Higher Dex is ok with me.



Cleon said:


> I agree with Leopold, Improved grab bite and then Constrict like a snake, plus a breath weapon. The write-up indicates they can constrict one victim in their coils while biting another, I think that'd better carry over into the 3E version.
> 
> Now I was wondering, since its magical secretions can cause a whole pool to boil, wouldn't they burn creatures that touch them? If I was writing the thing up from scratch I'd be tempted to have them do additional fire (or cold) damage to anything they grapple/Constrict.




Imp Grab based on bite is fine.  We definitely need to think about the secretion, too.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Let's start 'em at 18 HD.

Added to Homebrews.

The secretion damage sounds plausible to me.


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

For our comparison dragons, we have:
Abyssal Drake: 10 HD, +12 natural
Hill Landwyrm: 20 HD, +15 natural
Jungle Landwyrm: 28 HD, +15 natural
Tundra Landwyrm: 24 HD, +18 natural
So maybe +14 natural?

Couldn't find the wardrake.  Where's that from?


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## Cleon (Jun 3, 2009)

freyar said:


> Dragonnes become Huge at 13HD.  I don't think these should be as low on HD as giant animals or vermin, either.  So I'd be willing to go as low as 13HD, even though I'd prefer higher.




Gah! I swear I typed in 13HD for the Huge Dragonne.

Come to think of it, I remember duplicated the "I'd be tempted to leave it at 8HD" bit after that bit while monkeying around with that post, I must have accidentally deleted the 13HD bit when I cut it out.

That error will not stand! I must edit the post to 13HD, to defend my gaming honour.



freyar said:


> Higher Dex is ok with me.




Good, in that case I think we should change its Int to 6 (or maybe 8) so it has three odd ability scores and three even.



Shade said:


> Let's start 'em at 18 HD.




That's OK by me. Dragonnes and Dragon Turtles are rather weedy in 3rd edition. Maybe we should address them in a "Building a Better Monster" thread?



freyar said:


> For our comparison dragons, we have:
> Abyssal Drake: 10 HD, +12 natural
> Hill Landwyrm: 20 HD, +15 natural
> Jungle Landwyrm: 28 HD, +15 natural
> ...




I'd go for +10 or +12 natural. The original has a fairly unimpressive AC4. 
Besides, its unusually high Dex will help it AC wise.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Leopold (Jun 3, 2009)

I'll chime in for +12 natural armor, it seems to fit that this thing is a big snake/lizard combo and rather tough.

Constriction damage do 2d8 fire damage as well as normal damage.  I'm pegging this thing around a CR12 or higher and that seems a decent amount to do around that time. Scale up as they get larger of course.

Feats: Power Attack,  Improved Bull Rush, Improved Over Power, Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Snatch

Skills: Spot, Listen, Hide, Knowledge (Nature)

This thing seems quick like a boa constrictor/viper. It's a huge dragon/snake it lies in wait, it sense prey, it pounces.  Picture a smarter version of the movie Anaconda.


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## freyar (Jun 4, 2009)

Was there agreement on dropping to Int 6?

Does this look good?  I could see upping the cone size.
Breath weapon (Su): 30 ft cone, every 1d4 rounds up to 3 times/day, damage 4d10 cold, DC X Reflex save half.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

The secretion seems to be next on tap.


> The water temperature is strongly affected by a magical secretion from the swamp wyrms’ scales. Guivre pools are always steaming hot, melting snow and ice around them like hot springs, while knucker holes are chill, fog-shrouded, and sometimes iced over, killing all vegetation around them. Stagnant waters from these lakes are poisonous to all except swamp wyrms and other reptiles, thanks to the secretion; those drinking the water must save vs. poison or suffer 1-4 hp damage per round for 1-6 rounds.




Did we want energy damage from swimming in the pools as well as the poison?  Also, I guess we want constrict to cause energy damage.  Any other effects?


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm fine with Int 6.

Breath weapon looks good, but let's drop the "up to 3/day" like we've done for most creatures with breath weapons, allowing the standard 1d4 rounds to suffice.

I think we should writeup the secretions similar to the fire elemental's burn ability (minus the chance for combustion), and note that underwater the burn works to a x-foot radius.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

I like that idea for the secretion, and I'm happy with dropping the 3/day limit on the breath.  These are dragons, after all.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with Int 6.
> 
> Breath weapon looks good, but let's drop the "up to 3/day" like we've done for most creatures with breath weapons, allowing the standard 1d4 rounds to suffice.
> 
> I think we should writeup the secretions similar to the fire elemental's burn ability (minus the chance for combustion), and note that underwater the burn works to a x-foot radius.




All those Int, breath weapon & secretion proposals looks good to me.

So are we OK with natural +12 armour?

Armor Class: 23 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +12 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 20

Hmm, that looks a bit low for an 18HD Dragon, so I can see a case for improving it somewhat. Maybe +15 natural?

Armor Class: 26 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +15 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 23

At least that would give it a chance of missing itself.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Agreed to +15 natural armor.

Updated.



> A swamp wyrm will also take only half damage from attack forms similar to its breath weapon (i.e., fire and heat for the guivre, and frost and cold for the knucker).




Resistance to cold/fire 20?



> Stagnant waters from these lakes are poisonous to all except swamp wyrms and other reptiles, thanks to the secretion; those drinking the water must save vs. poison or suffer 1-4 hp damage per round for 1-6 rounds.




Stick with poison, or borrow the corrupt water ability from black dragons?


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## Leopold (Jun 5, 2009)

Resistance 15 is fine with these things. Steal the black dragons, make it easy on us


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Resistance 15 or 20, either way.

I like corrupt water, as well.  More elegant.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Updated.



> The swamp wyrm’s favored hunting method is to lie barely submerged in murky water (it can see perfectly through it), then grab anything that comes down to drink. This tactic gives it a +2 bonus to surprise




Shall we borrow this?

*Swamp landwyrms have a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks when in swamp environments. This bonus on Hide checks increases to +8 when the landwyrm is immobile.

Skills: 84
Upthread, Leopold suggested Spot, Listen, Hide, Knowledge (Nature)

I'd recommend replacing Knowledge (nature) with Move Silently.

Feats: 7
Upthread, Leopold suggested Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Over Power, Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Alertness, Snatch

I like Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Improved Bull Rush, and Power Attack from that list.  I think Improved Overrun (is that what you meant by Over Power?) isn't too beneficial for its typical tactics, and Snatch is a bit redundant with its improved grab ability.   Alertness is fine if we can't find something more exciting.

I'd recommend adding to that list Improved Critical (bite) and Weapon Focus (bite), since its combat success hinges almost solely on a successful bite.  Improved Initiative seems a good fit, too.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

It's looking good.

I agree to the Hide bonuses from the landwyrm.

Either set of skills is fine.  Or we could compromise on Hide 17, Knowledge (nature) 16, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Spot 17 for ranks.  With the racial bonus, it should be ok on Hide, I'd think.

I like Shade's feat list with Improved Init.  If we're worried about hiding, we can drop Imp Init for Stealthy.  

Constrict damage, maybe 2d8+8 like a behir?  The behir has fewer HD, but the swamp dragon will also have the cold/fire damage.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> Resistance 15 or 20, either way.




How about we set the resistance so it stops half the average damage of its breath weapon, thus riffing off the original's "half damage".

An adult Black Dragon has 19HD and does 12d4 with its breath weapon. That averages out to 30 hit points (12*2.5) of damage, so I vote for Fire/Cold Resistance 15 and a breath weapon that does 6d10 damage (assuming we want to preserve the original's ten-sided dice at breath weapon damage).



freyar said:


> I like corrupt water, as well.  More elegant.




Corrupt Water works for me, although I would argue for increasing the volume. At 10 cubic feet a day it would take it _*sixteen years*_ to corrupt a pool 50' in diameter and 30' deep. If it wanted to corrupt a 180' radius hemispherical pool (the largest size it could manage if it follows an adult dragon's Frightful Presence radius) it would take over 3300 years to corrupt!

I would suggest it corrupts a 10 foot cube (i.e. 1000 cubic feet) a day, then it would take 60 days to corrupt the aforementioned 50' dia. pool.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

I agree with all the above suggestions.  I was a bit bothered by the relatively weak breath weapon.  

Updated.

Advancement: 19-30 HD (Huge); 31-38 HD (Gargantuan); 39-45 HD (Colossal)?  This follows the stomrdrake and wardrake progressions rather closely.

CR 10-11?  It's somewhere between a wardrake (CR 9) and a hill landwyrm (CR 12).  It's fairly comparable to a CR 10 forest landwyrm, although it can dish out more overall damage.


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> It's looking good.
> 
> I agree to the Hide bonuses from the landwyrm.
> 
> Either set of skills is fine.  Or we could compromise on Hide 17, Knowledge (nature) 16, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Spot 17 for ranks.  With the racial bonus, it should be ok on Hide, I'd think.




I'd prefer Survival instead of Knowledge (nature), and rearranging the points to max out its Hide as it's primarily an ambush hunter. How about:

Hide 21, Listen 17, Move Silently 17, Spot 17, Survival {or Knowledge (nature)} 12



freyar said:


> I like Shade's feat list with Improved Init.  If we're worried about hiding, we can drop Imp Init for Stealthy.




Let me just check I have this straight, Shade's proposed feats are Awesome Blow, Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (bite), Improved Initiative, Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack and Weapon Focus (bite)?

Those work for me.

If we wanted to modify them, the Improved Initiative feat is arguably the least useful. Maybe swap it for Blind-Fight?



freyar said:


> Constrict damage, maybe 2d8+8 like a behir?  The behir has fewer HD, but the swamp dragon will also have the cold/fire damage.




Actually, a Behir is probably nastier, since it adds those six +15 melee 1d4+4 claw rakes to its 2d8+8 Constrict damage.

Constrict damage often adds 150% Strength bonus, so how about 2d8+12 plus 2d8 fire/cold?


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## Cleon (Jun 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Advancement: 19-30 HD (Huge); 31-38 HD (Gargantuan); 39-45 HD (Colossal)?  This follows the stomrdrake and wardrake progressions rather closely.




That's a bit of an odd progression, since it goes +12HD; +8 HD; +7HD. Why not just even it out to +9HD; +9HD;+9HD or +6HD; +9HD; +12HD?

Hmm, the latter option would give it 19-24 HD (Huge); 25-33 HD (Gargantuan); 34-45 HD (Colossal) the former, 19-27 HD (Huge); 28-36 HD (Gargantuan); 37-45 HD (Colossal):

Actually, I prefer +9HD; +9HD; +18HD so it ends up with the normal *3 max HD. That works out:

Advancement: 19-27 HD (Huge); 28-36 HD (Gargantuan); 37-54 HD (Colossal)



Shade said:


> CR 10-11?  It's somewhere between a wardrake (CR 9) and a hill landwyrm (CR 12).  It's fairly comparable to a CR 10 forest landwyrm, although it can dish out more overall damage.




I was thinking a CR around 11-12, so how about splitting the difference and saying 11.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

I can see swapping Survival for Knowledge (nature), sure.  And swapping a few more ranks to hide.  So Cleon's suggestion is good.

Probably following the landwyrms' advancement progression makes sense, if there's a common one.

CR 11 is ok.

Can someone tell me where to find the wardrake?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

Odd progressions are OK, and fairly common.  If everything fell into the common "up to double HD (same size)/up to double HD triple HD (next size)" progression, the world would be a boring place.  

CR 11 works.

Survival does make more sense than Knowledge (nature), considering the monster's low intellect.  It doesn't strike me as "scholarly".  

Updated.

Freyar, if I told you where to find the wardrake, you'd have to fight it.  And you don't want that.  (Aw, what the hell...Dragon #309).


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Looks pretty good.

Let's set the radius of damage from the secretion to 30 ft, sure.

On the guivre sidebar, just note the places to replace cold with fire?

About that wardrake --- don't you think all those years of school got me at least a few levels of expert?


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> About that wardrake --- don't you think all those years of school got me at least a few levels of expert?




Probably.  But you don't want to join your aristrocrat friends in its belly, do ya?

Updated.


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2009)

Shade said:


> Probably.  But you don't want to join your aristrocrat friends in its belly, do ya?
> 
> Updated.



I've got my pocket knife dagger, I'm ready to go! 

The swamp wyrm is looking good, but the guivre constrict does fire damage from the burning secretion, not the chilling secretion. Besides that correction, I think they're ready.


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## Cleon (Jun 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> I've got my pocket knife dagger, I'm ready to go!
> 
> The swamp wyrm is looking good, but the guivre constrict does fire damage from the burning secretion, not the chilling secretion. Besides that correction, I think they're ready.




Yes, it's looking finished.

The only thing I can think of is maybe increasing its treasure, since the original has quite a good treasure (G) for a solitary 8HD monster, and they're noted for amassing loot to impress the chicks.

So, maybe double treasure?


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## freyar (Jun 6, 2009)

Double works for me.  It is a dragon, after all.


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## Cleon (Jun 7, 2009)

freyar said:


> Double works for me.  It is a dragon, after all.




Quite, apart from Treasure I think we've just got flavour text left.

It hasn't been given a weight yet, just a length of "over 30 feet long". Somewhere between 5,000 and 10,000 pounds seems right, based on the Remorhaz and a scaled-down Purple Worm.

Shall we average it to 7,500 pounds?


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

I'd left the weight off since most other dragons don't list weights, but since you went to the trouble, 7,500 pounds works for me.  

Anyone else think of medical infomercials every time they see "burning secretions"?  ("Side effects may include...")  

Updated.

All done?


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## Cleon (Jun 8, 2009)

Shade said:


> All done?




I think so.

What's up next?


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

I picked Snatch for one of it's feats from here:

SRD:Snatch - D&D Wiki

It would take an enemy, grapple them with improved grab, breathe on them (no reflex save), and then fling them aside.  This was more it's dragonlike aspect.  

This idea went with the more thought of the pounce ability. Improved Grab, if i remember, doesn't give you all those extra perks, just allows you to not get an AoO when you grapple.  Snatch would swap out for Weapon Focus.   Call it a more tactile feat over Weapon Focus. 

Improved Overrun:
SRD:Improved Overrun - D&D Wiki

More focus on pounce and bullrush. Snatch and Grab opponents, take them under like a gator and drown them. 

It's a big critter, it'll bullrush the enemy knock others sides bite, grab, Dive deep.

Take out improved Critical for this.

Most monsters have a standard set of feats, I wanted to branch out into something else for this one.

Beyond that, this guy is done.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

I'll meet you halfway.  

I still don't like Improved Overrun for this guy, but I can definitely see the logic behind Snatch (especially since its improved grab is more a mechanic to get creatures to its coils).

Updated.  Finished?


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Signed, Sealed, Delivered.


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

In that case...

*Lindworm*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Variable (see text)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Low (5-7)
TREASURE: B
ALIGNMENT: Variable, but always evil
NO. APPEARING: 1 (20% of 2)
ARMOR CLASS: Variable (see text)
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 3
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-8/1-6/2-12
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Breath weapon
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Immune to attacks similar to those of breath weapon
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (20’ long)
MORALE: Steady (11)
XP VALUE: 650

The lindworm is a deficient form of evil dragon, one that may be born to a black, blue, green, red, or white dragon. This may be due to a curse of the gods or simply nature’s way of insuring that the population of true dragons doesn’t grow too large. Either way, the lindworm, while formidable, is not nearly as dangerous as a regular dragon. It looks like a two-legged dragon, rather like a wyvern, but without wings or the wyvern’s poison stinger. The lindworm has a typically draconic head and long neck, but the creature’s body is built like that of a huge scaly bird. Its color and other details of its appearance are similar to those of its parents.

Combat: The lindworm has three physical attacks: a bite (1-8 hp), a clawing attack (1-6 hp; only one clawing attack can be made, since the lindworm must have one leg to stand on), and a tail lash (1-12 hp). No lindworm can cast spells, but they do inherit their parents’ breath weapon, which has only half the physical dimensions of the usual form and does 5d8 hp damage (half if a successful save vs. breath weapons is made). The breath attack may be used three times a day. All lindworms are also immune to attack forms similar to those of their breath weapons (e.g., fire and heat for the lindworm spawn of red dragons). As a final defense, the lindworm’s armor class is equal to the parent dragon’s base armor class.

Habitat/Society: Lindworms are the result of a dragon couple’s breeding failures (one appearing every 100 births), and as such they are quickly driven forth from the den. Eighty percent of the time, only one lindworm is encountered; otherwise, there are twins. Because they are effectively banished from draconic society, lindworms are extremely vicious, selfish, bitter creatures seeking revenge on the world. Twins are quite loyal to each other, as each is the only creature in the world that provides companionship for the other. If one is killed or injured, the other attacks with no thought for its own life (Morale 20). They speak their parents natural tongue only, but rarely speak before or instead of attacking. Lindworms have no true society, despising even each other unless they are twins.

Ecology: The lindworm has no ingrained hunting technique, having to learn through trial and error. (Even if dragons knew how to kill through instinct instead of being taught by their parents, the lindworm’s lack of wings and forelimbs would make this knowledge useless.) All lindworm hunting methods are essentially variants on the ambush: hiding in thick brush or woods, waiting behind boulders, sitting submerged in murky water, or burying itself in sand or snow (depending on the lindworm’s parentage and environment). Lindworms eat anything they can catch and are almost always hungry, a state that only adds to their generally bad dispositions. They don’t value treasure for its own sake as their parents do, but often leave the spoils of a previous hunt as bait for intelligent prey.

Though dangerous, lindworms are often deposed from the top of the local food chain by even more dangerous predators. Dragons who were not their birth parents will willingly slay them out of hand, without eating the bodies; other powerful monsters find them to be interesting prey, and adventurers regularly reduce their ranks. Wizards have yet to find a use for lindworm parts.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #182 (1992).


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

Sigh, this is gonna be a beast.

Are we doing a baseline for this creature i.e. huge, set HD, set Breath Weapon, set feats. or we doing a scaling/table based conversion here for what looks like 5 different colors.

I'm sorry, huge with only 5 hit dice? No way.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

Definitely need to bump the HD.  Up to 15 or so?

I think a base design with a table for the different colors (breath weapon and immunities) would suffice.  What do you all think?


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## Shade (Jun 8, 2009)

freyar said:


> Definitely need to bump the HD.  Up to 15 or so?
> 
> I think a base design with a table for the different colors (breath weapon and immunities) would suffice.  What do you all think?




Agreed on both counts.

Since it sounds like they are based off the wyvern, we can probably upsize a wyvern to Huge to get the ability scores.

That would give us...

Str 27, Dex 10, Con 19, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9


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## Leopold (Jun 8, 2009)

AS it is huge we are going off the baseline of an Adult instead of a wyrmling or smaller? Did we want to start small and work up or start off with Adult as the baseline?

Reason I ask is that Huge is usually adult size and the stats we are using lead to that conclusion.


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## freyar (Jun 8, 2009)

I expect these are stats for adults lindwyrms.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 9, 2009)

Yeah, lindworms do not appear to follow true dragon age categories. Makes things much easier on us. 

Shall we call them "false lindworms" or something? Linnorms, after all, have different context in D&D already.


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

freyar said:


> Definitely need to bump the HD.  Up to 15 or so?
> 
> I think a base design with a table for the different colors (breath weapon and immunities) would suffice.  What do you all think?






Shade said:


> Agreed on both counts.
> 
> Since it sounds like they are based off the wyvern, we can probably upsize a wyvern to Huge to get the ability scores.
> 
> ...




I get the impression these are supposed to be small 'runts', so making them Huge as adults seems off to me. Many true dragons are Large size as adults (e.g. Black, Brass, Copper, White). Besides, if the 20' length is mostly tail and neck it probably fits the 3E Large category.

So, I'd drop the Lindorm to Large like a Wyvern and keep the 5HD.

The advancement could go up to Gargantuan, also like a wyvern, say 6-8 HD (Large); 9-15 (Huge); 16-25 HD (Gargantuan)?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Shall we call them "false lindworms" or something? Linnorms, after all, have different context in D&D already.






Cleon said:


> I get the impression these are supposed to be small 'runts', so making them Huge as adults seems off to me. Many true dragons are Large size as adults (e.g. Black, Brass, Copper, White). Besides, if the 20' length is mostly tail and neck it probably fits the 3E Large category.
> 
> So, I'd drop the Lindorm to Large like a Wyvern and keep the 5HD.
> 
> The advancement could go up to Gargantuan, also like a wyvern, say 6-8 HD (Large); 9-15 (Huge); 16-25 HD (Gargantuan)?




All this sounds good.

In that case, just use wyvern ability scores?   Or modify slightly?


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> All this sounds good.
> 
> In that case, just use wyvern ability scores?   Or modify slightly?




I'd say modify them slightly.

Hmm, all the SRD's Large adult true Dragon havs Str 23, Dex 10, Con 19.

A Wyvern is Str 19, Dex 10, Con 15.

How about averaging them to Str 21, Dex 12, Con 17?

I chose the higher of the Dex's because our previous wyrm had a good Dex.

The AC may be a problem, we don't want to give them their parent dragon's natural armour or else they'll have ACs way too high for their CR. An adult black dragon has +18 natural, we'd end end up with a Lindorm with AC28 and a +9 bite attack (+5BAB +5Str -1 size) - it would barely be able to hit itself!

Maybe parent dragon's Adult natural armour -10? (black +8NA, blue +10NA, green +9NA, red +11NA, white +7NA)


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Let's not increase the Dex, as they are "deficient" true dragons, nearly none of which has a Dex score other than 10.

I'd also rather standardize the natural armor, instead of basing it off parents (and having yet another table entry).  If the majority prefers loads of table entries, though, I'll defer.


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## Leopold (Jun 9, 2009)

I'd shoot for an Average natural armor, stats, and abilities for these things with templating only the breath weapon and SUs.  This way the DM can pick a green "false lindorm" (I like this idea) and add in it's few abilities as easily as say a blue one.  Maximum flexibility.


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## Cleon (Jun 9, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's not increase the Dex, as they are "deficient" true dragons, nearly none of which has a Dex score other than 10.
> 
> I'd also rather standardize the natural armor, instead of basing it off parents (and having yet another table entry).  If the majority prefers loads of table entries, though, I'll defer.




As you like, averaging out the NA-10 approach for the full evil draconic spectrum gives us +8 natural armour.

AC 17 (-1 size, +8 natural), touch 9, flat footed 17


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Large, 5HD, +8 natural all sounds good.   I also don't want to bump the Dex, but the abilities look good.  Still use Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 9, 2009)

Looks pretty good!  We don't want to keep the 3/day limit on the breath?  That would make them more like half-dragons.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

I like the 3/day limit to the breath weapon. Again, makes them draconic, but deficient.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> Large, 5HD, +8 natural all sounds good.   I also don't want to bump the Dex, but the abilities look good.  Still use Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9?




Looks OK. I've never liked true dragons having mediocre Dexterity, but have learned to live with it...



Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.




5d10 damage for its breath weapon seems high for a 5 Hit Dice dragon. I was thinking 5d4 or 5d6.

We need some more stuff in Advancement. Its breath weapon should increase in damage (say 1d4 or 1d6 per Hit Dice?) as well as size, and I was thinking its natural armour should increase faster than normal advancement, like true dragons do.

How about natural armour around +13 for a Huge lindorm and NA +20 for Gargantuan?



freyar said:


> Looks pretty good! We don't want to keep the 3/day limit on the breath? That would make them more like half-dragons.




Are we talking 3/day *and* a 1d4 round delay between breaths? I guess I don't mind that.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I think the original breath weapon has 5d8, but 5d6 also seems reasonable.  These are pretty low CR probably.

I could go either way on the exceptional advancement.

Yeah, I meant 3/day and 1d4 rounds between.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Oops...breath weapon should've been 5d8.  Will fix.

In this instance, I can live with the "1d4 rounds but only up to 3/day" exception, since it can be easily explained by their deficient nature.

I agree that breath weapon and natural armor should scale with advancement.   +13/+20 sounds reasonable for the armor, and I propose breath weapon increase by an additional 1d8 per 3 HD gained.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think the original breath weapon has 5d8, but 5d6 also seems reasonable.  These are pretty low CR probably.
> 
> I could go either way on the exceptional advancement.




After glancing at post #901 the breath weapon did to 5d8. That's pretty meaty for a 5HD AD&D monster, so 5d10 would be a closer fit with the original.

But if we keep it, I would still like its breath damage to increase with Advancement, but 1d10/HD seems to much to me. Maybe an extra 1d10 per two extra hit dice? Then a 9HD Huge lindorm would do 7d10 and a 15HD Gargantuan one 10d10 with its breath.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade slipped it back to 5d8, which I think is fair here.  The low HD are an important factor.  I also like Shade's proposed advancement, though I could go to +1 damage die per 2 HD.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

freyar said:


> Shade slipped it back to 5d8, which I think is fair here.  The low HD are an important factor.  I also like Shade's proposed advancement, though I could go to +1 damage die per 2 HD.




I don't have anything against 5d10, since the original had a pretty high-damage breath weapon.

I prefer +1 die per 2HD since it has the breath weapon damage increase  synchronize with its size steps. If its +1 die per 3HD the lindorm gains the damage boost a HD before each size increase (6d8 at 8HD, 8d8 at 14HD, while its size increases at 9HD and 15HD)


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm fine with +1 per 2 HD.  I just suggested the slower progression since it was more "deficient" than most true dragons. 

Updated.

Should they have any of the following abilities common to true dragons:  frightful presence, keen senses, blindsense?


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## Leopold (Jun 10, 2009)

Frightful Presence and Blindsense. Keen Senses? Well they are the retarded step children so probably not.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 10, 2009)

I like keen senses. Frightful presence and blindsense can fall by the wayside, methinks.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I like keen senses. Frightful presence and blindsense can fall by the wayside, methinks.




Methinks keen senses and blindsense go together, so I vote for both.

Frightful presence? Probably not, I imagine them as being slightly pathetic looking. A basic dragon turtle surely looks more frightening than a lindorm, and they don't terrify folk by their mere presence.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm going to vote with Cleon: keen senses and blindsense, but no frightful presence.  However, I'm not averse to dropping blindsense, either; that's just a slight preference.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

We could halve the blindsense range of true dragons, bringing it to 30 feet.


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## Cleon (Jun 10, 2009)

Shade said:


> We could halve the blindsense range of true dragons, bringing it to 30 feet.




OK by me, how about cutting down its draconic keen senses too. Something like:

*Keen Senses (Ex):* A false lindorm sees three times as well as a human in shadowy illumination. It also has darkvision out to 90 feet.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

I like diminishing the blindsense and keen senses.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Updated.



> All lindworm hunting methods are essentially variants on the ambush: hiding in thick brush or woods, waiting behind boulders, sitting submerged in murky water, or burying itself in sand or snow (depending on the lindworm’s parentage and environment). Lindworms eat anything they can catch and are almost always hungry, a state that only adds to their generally bad dispositions. They don’t value treasure for its own sake as their parents do, but often leave the spoils of a previous hunt as bait for intelligent prey.




Skills: 32
Hide 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 8, Spot 8?

Feats: 2
Multiattack, Stealthy?


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

Skills look fine.

Stealthy works. Give it some flavor as it's an ambusher not a full frontal assault critter.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

Either Stealthy or Ability Focus (breath weapon) work for me, but Multiattack is a must.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Updated.

CR 4?  They aren't as good as a CR 5 ambush drake, and a fairly comparable to a stone drake.

Treasure: Standard?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

I don't know if the MM3 is really a good place to be drawing CR comparisons from--it's notoriously broken, and I remember ambush drakes specifically being too good for their CR. I think 5 is appropriate.

I don't think we should keep that "only one claw attack" thing. They can lie on their bellies and move like snakes, if depictions of linnorms in other media has anything to say about it.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Good point!   My hatred for MM3 has cooled significantly over time (supplanted by 4e rage ).

CR 5 and 2 claw attacks sounds good.

Updated.

An adult false lindworm is x feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Skills: 32
> Hide 8, Listen 8, Move Silently 8, Spot 8?
> ...




The skills work for me. I'd be tempted to give it some racial bonus to Hide, Listen or Spot, but true dragons don't get any so I guess it'd be inappropriate. Besides, its got maxed-out skill ranks, so that should do.

Multiattack and Stealthy are fine.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> I don't think we should keep that "only one claw attack" thing. They can lie on their bellies and move like snakes, if depictions of linnorms in other media has anything to say about it.




I'd keep the one claw attack, it has to stand on one leg while kicking with the other, like the SRD Deinonychus/Megaraptor's talon attack.


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## Cleon (Jun 11, 2009)

Shade said:


> An adult false lindworm is x feet long and weighs x pounds.




20 feet nose to tail and 2000 pounds?


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Let's stick with two attacks, since other creatures with similar builds (like linnorms) have multiple claw attacks.

Also note that the dinosaurs you mentioned list "talon*s*".  Like some birds, its seems they lump them into a single attack representing both sets striking at once.  It makes sense for a diving eagle or hawk, but I don't get it for the dinos.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Looks really good!

I like the length and weight.  It might be a little big to be Large (same length as Huge remorhaz, but only 1/5 the weight), but I think it's ok due to the low weight.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's stick with two attacks, since other creatures with similar builds (like linnorms) have multiple claw attacks.
> 
> Also note that the dinosaurs you mentioned list "talon*s*".  Like some birds, its seems they lump them into a single attack representing both sets striking at once.  It makes sense for a diving eagle or hawk, but I don't get it for the dinos.




I think I'll blame the counter-intuitive terminology of 3E attacks, since an bird of prey has a set of "talons" on each foot, it can attack with one or two sets, although in 3E each would probably be called a 'claw/talon attack'.

Come to think of it, the Digester makes a better argument. That's got a similarly armless biped build to a lindorm and only has one claw attack.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Looks really good!
> 
> I like the length and weight.  It might be a little big to be Large (same length as Huge remorhaz, but only 1/5 the weight), but I think it's ok due to the low weight.




I just scaled-down the Guivre/Knocker's length and weight and rounded the weight to the nearest thousand. 2000 pounds at 20 feet works out as 3.2 times heavier than a scaled down Purple Worm (20 tons and 80').

As for the Remorhaz, they have a body 5 feet wide which doesn't appear to taper much, plus lots of legs. A lindorm which, say, has a body 3 feet wide at its thickest point, tapers more rapidly and only has two smallish legs could easily be 20% of that weight.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 12, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Come to think of it, the Digester makes a better argument. That's got a similarly armless biped build to a lindorm and only has one claw attack.




Yes, but lindorms are serpentine. Their bellies are right down near the (short) legs, and they can rest on them/use them for locomotion whilst clawing. A digester (poor thing), would just tip over if it tried to do the same.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Actually, demiurge, although I prefer the picture you present, lindworms are birdish (see Shade's flavor text).  The original monster description states


> It looks like a two-legged dragon, rather like a wyvern, but without wings or the wyvern’s poison stinger. The lindworm has a typically draconic head and long neck, but the creature’s body is built like that of a huge scaly bird. Its color and other details of its appearance are similar to those of its parents.
> 
> Combat: The lindworm has three physical attacks: a bite (1-8 hp), a clawing attack (1-6 hp; only one clawing attack can be made, since the lindworm must have one leg to stand on), and a tail lash (1-12 hp).



Unless we're changing the body shape, I think I'd have to agree with Cleon that we should go to 1 claw (or 1 talon, whichever).


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## Leopold (Jun 12, 2009)

Yes, one claw or a bite, not both claws. Picture a chicken if you want to look at something. A gigantic scalely chicken.


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## Cleon (Jun 12, 2009)

Looks like things are swinging towards "One Claw Attack To Rule Them All", and I didn't even have to resort to bribery or the use of dark powers.

Oh, and if they really look like giant scaly chickens it's hardly surprising they don't have Frightful Presence.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Really, despite the fact that I had been originally thinking of them as like linnorms, I now think that the lindworm is really supposed to look like a big but slightly wimpy wyvern with a breath weapon rather than poison tail.  Note that wyverns can only get talon attacks when flying, too.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2009)

OK, fair enough. I was going by my (wrong) mental image. One claw attack it is.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Giant scaly chicken for the win.

Updated.

Do we want to add a sidebar for false lindworms based on other chromatic dragons, like the brown and Faerunian yellow?


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

Can't hurt to add those 2 in there and then call it a day.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Just put in a statement that they have the same type breath weapon and energy immunity as the parent dragon?  That could cover all cases, right?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Sounds good.

Updated.

All done?


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## Cleon (Jun 15, 2009)

Shade said:


> Sounds good.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> All done?




Looks fine, except that I reckon its Spot and Listen skills should be +9.

I suspect it's missing the +1 for Wisdom 12.

Apart from that it's good to go, who (or rather what) do we have up next?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Good catch.  Fixed.  More to come soon...


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

They look good!


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

*Bloodstinger*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Temperate or subtropical mountain forests and jungles
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Day
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Animal
TREASURE: Incidental
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 
ARMOR CLASS: 3
MOVEMENT: 18, fly 24 (D)
HIT DICE: 5
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8/1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Poison
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: H (15’ long, 20’ wingspan)
MORALE: Elite (14)
XP VALUE: 650

Other than size, the most obvious difference between the pseudodragon and the wyvern is the number of limbs: the wyvern lacks the front legs of its smaller cousin.  The recent discovery of the bloodstinger, a wyvern-like creature with small forelimbs, has led many to believe the creature is a “missing link” between the two reptiles.  Whether the bloodstinger is an intermediate form showing how the pseudodragon evolved into the wyvern or how the wyvern evolved into the smaller pseudodragon is a matter of contention in academic circles; many sages discount both theories, believing both creatures are the result of divergent lines of evolution from the “original” bloodstinger stock.
Standing upright on huge, powerful legs, the bloodstinger is rather tyrannosaur-like in build.  However, its lengthy tail is equipped with a foot-long stinger, and it sports a pair of batlike wings.  Two backward-curving horns project from the top of its skull, further evidence of a common ancestry with the wyvern.  Its skin is pebbly, with a texture and coloration similar to that of a gila monster: mottled black and red.  It is from its red coloration that the bloodstinger gets its name.

Combat: Oddly enough, the bloodstinger prefers to attack from the ground, using its wings merely as a means of rapid transportation to prey.  It delivers a vicious bite for 2-8 hp damage and also stings with its tail-spike for an additional 1-4 hp damage.  Those struck by the tail-spike must save vs. poison or be slowed for 4-20 rounds, after which time they must save vs. poison again or die.  Subsequent stinger hits are not cumulative; the victim suffers the poison effects of the first hit only (although he suffers 1-4 puncture damage from each subsequent stinger hit).  Bloodstingers are immune to the effects of their own poison.

Habitat/Society: Bloodstingers are loners, gathering only during mating season in the spring.  After an elaborate mating ritual, including aggressive roars and an intricate bobbing dance, the mating itself occurs in flight.  The females lay their eggs (3-6 in a clutch) in their mountain-top nests, caring for the young for the first year only.

Strictly carnivorous, a bloodstinger attacks just about anything that moves, regardless of its size.  If it finds it has “bitten off more than it can chew,” it relies on flight to escape.  There is no safety in numbers when dealing with bloodstingers, for they are not intimidated by large numbers of adversaries.

Perhaps because of their relatively poor maneuverability, bloodstingers tend to ignore aerial prey.  Strangely, being airborne is one of the safest places to be in combat against one of these flying creatures, for they are much more likely to break away from combat and search out easier, landbound prey than they are to pursue prey once it takes to the skies.  It is believed that a bloodstinger’s wings tire quickly; except for their mating flights, they are never spotted in the air for long periods.

Some have thought that bloodstingers would make excellent riding mounts.  Unfortunately , this has never been successfully accomplished; even when raised in captivity, bloodstingers refuse to acknowledge any master and seek to devour those who would use them as steeds.  Only through charm monster spells can these creatures be used in such a manner.

Ecology: Bloodstinger flesh is next to inedible, but their brightly-colored skin is often sought after by primitive hunters (and several lizard man tribes) for shields or hide armor.  The poison sacs in their tails can be used to harvest the equivalent of 1-3 potions of poison, each with the same effects as a bloodstinger’s stinger attack once ingested.  In addition, the hard, bony stinger itself is often used as a weapon, either as a one-handed weapon as is or mounted on a pole to create a spear.

Originally appeared in Dragon Magazine #251 (1998).


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Comparing to the 2e wyvern and pseudodragon stats, this does indeed appear to be a missing link between the two.  Its poison is essentially a blending of the two.

Ironically, its size is exactly indentical to that of the 3e wyvern.  However, the 2e wyvern was much larger (35-foot long with 50-foot wingspan), so I could see reducing these to Medium for our conversion.

So, shall we downsize a wyvern to Medium, reduce mental stats as appropriate for animal intelligence, and make the other minor changes?


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

Looks like a blend of a Wyvern and a T-Rex.  

I'm all for making it a touch smaller. Tempting to keep it Large though. Just cause it's an offshoot doesn't neccessarily mean "smaller" 


Str 21, Dex 12, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7

STronger and tougher and now dumber and uglier.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

I'd be fine with either a smallish Large or Medium. Poison slows, then kills. How about 1d6 Dex damage/2d6 Con damage?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

That poison will probably work.

A wyvern downsized to Medium looks like this...

Str 11, Dex 14, Con 11, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9

A pseudodragon upsized to Medium looks like this...

Str 14, Dex 11, Con 15, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 10

Since these have animal intelligence, how about...

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9?


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

Str 16?  I'd like to make these a touch tougher for physical damage. After all it is the parent of the Wyvern species.

beyond that i'm fine with the deisgn.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

The thing is that wyverns aren't so strong for Large monsters.  I'd be happy to stick with Str 14, but Str 16 is ok if that's what the group wants to do.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2009)

Hmm, tricky. The SRD Wyvern has identical dimensions to the Bloodstinger, which argues for it being the lower end of Large, but on the other hand the Bloodstinger's bite and sting damage are pretty close to a Wyvern that's been downscaled one category. (Bite 2d8 -> 1d10, Sting 1d6 -> 1d4)

I'll go for Medium, since the 2E Wyvern is about twice as long as the 2E Bloodstinger (25' vs 15'). We could halve the length of the Bloodstinger to 7 to 8 feet, including a four foot tail, plus a 10 foot wingspan. It should weigh about 250 pounds.

I'd use the stats of the Wyvern, but drop its Int to 2 (animal intelligence) and cut its Strength by 4 (it should be weaker than a Wyvern but I don't think it deserves the whole +/- 8 Str advancement between Medium and Large):

Str 15, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9.

Natural Armour would probably be +6, giving it AC17 with its Dex.

As for its poison, I suspect the intent was to duplicate a slow spell's effect:
An affected creature moves and attacks at a drastically slowed rate. A slowed creature can take only a single move action or standard action each turn, but not both (nor may it take full-round actions). Additionally, it takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves. A slowed creature moves at half its normal speed (round down to the next 5-foot increment), which affects the creature’s jumping distance as normal for decreased speed.​A minute of that followed by Con damage is pretty nasty.

If you fancy a less cruel option, what about the initial effect being similar to fatigued, exhausted or sickened?

Say, the victim can not run or charge and suffers a -1 or -2 penalty on attacks, Reflex saves, Dexterity checks and Dex-based skills for the poison's duration?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

Your ability scores are fairly close to Shade's, Cleon.  Can we agree on his?  Or do people prefer Str 15 as a compromise between 14 and 16? 

Well, I could see substituting fatigued or sickened for a minute or so for the Dex damage just to be interesting.


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## Cleon (Jun 16, 2009)

freyar said:


> Your ability scores are fairly close to Shade's, Cleon.  Can we agree on his?  Or do people prefer Str 15 as a compromise between 14 and 16?




Str 14-16 is fine, I'm more concerned with the Dex 14 Shade proposed. Reading the description gives me the impression of a fairly clumsy beast, although that may be limited to the air, but regardless it makes me want to aim for the lower range of Dex. We could compensate for it with a higher Con but I'm not sure that's needed, since the original creature didn't have an X+Y Hit Dice like a 2E Wyvern's 7+7.

So, Shade's proposal:

Str 14, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 9

My proposal:

Str 15, Dex 12, Con 15, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 9

or a compromise proposal that's an average (rounding Str up, Wis down):

Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 9

Decisions, decisions.

Whichever one we go for, it's not a major difference.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

I agree with Cleon on this one. The flavor text supports a stronger, somewhat clumsier critter than Shade's stat overlay. 

I still prefer the Dex damage to just nausea/sickness/fatigue, though.


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2009)

Let's go with Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 9 and Dex poison, then.  Dex 13 gives us a few more feat options.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

That's true. Opens up the Dodge tree, among others.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> Let's go with Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 9 and Dex poison, then. Dex 13 gives us a few more feat options.





demiurge1138 said:


> That's true. Opens up the Dodge tree, among others.




OK, we seem to be getting somewhere. Good point about the Feat prereqs. So, we're agreed on Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 9.

As for the poison, I'm still against plain Dex damage. The description says it only causes slowness as its initial effect, if it does Dex it (a) has the potential of causing paralysis and (b) has a lot of fiddly knock-on effects to its target's stats. Some status effect seems both simpler and truer to the original to me.

What about its other stats. I'm seeing something like the following:

*Hit Dice:* 5d12+10 (37 hp)
* Speed:* 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 60 ft. (poor) [_*Faster on land, fly = Wyvern*_]
* Armor Class:* 17 (+1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 16
*Base Attack/Grapple:* +5/+7
*Attacks:* Sting +7 melee (1d4+2 poison) or bite +7 melee (1d10+2)
*Full Attack:* Sting +7 melee (1d4+2 poison) and bite +5 melee (1d10+2)
*Special Attacks:* Poison, improved grab [_*Like a Wyvern*_]
*Special Qualities:* Darkvision 60 ft., immunity to _sleep _and paralysis, low-light vision, scent [_*Like a Wyvern*_]
*Saves:* Fort +6, Ref +5, Wil +5
*Abilities:* Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 4, Wis 12, Cha 9
*Skills:* Hide +9, Listen +9, Move Silently +9, Spot +9, Survival +9
[_*Like a Wyvern with Survival as the extra skill from its higher Int, all maxed out and not including any feats or racial bonuses it may have*_]
*Feats:* Two, plus Multiattack (B) [_*Multiattack as *__*a bonus like Wyvern*_]
*Environment:* Warm hills [_*Like a Wyvern*_]
*Treasure:* Standard [_*Like a Wyvern*_]

I'm thinking one of its feats should be Alertness, since both the Wyvern and Pseudodragon have it, and probably Ability Focus (poison) for the other.

As for Advancement, Wyverns have an odd advancement, being 7HD (Large); 8-10 HD (Huge); 11-21 HD (Gargantuan) so I'm thinking something similar for the Bloodstinger, how about:

Advancement 6-7 HD (Large); 8-15 HD (Huge)


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm fine with the revised stats, except somewhere along the way I screwed up and indavertently improved Int to 4, when these are clearly animal intelligence.  I've corrected that to 2.

Added to Homebrews.

I also retained the wyvern's full attack routine, and would like the advancement to follow the wyvern's up to Gargantuan.  I'm open to debate, though.

Some things we might borrow from the pseudodragon...

Add "and temperate forests" to the Environment line.
Blindsense
Racial bonus on Hide checks
Initial damage on poison could be sleep
We don't have to use any of that, just some food for thought.


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

Needs to have worse flying or slower flying. This criter barely flies this thing is T-Rex with Wings (that's my mental picture I'm running with it).

What about Swallow Whole for a feat or is it too small to bother?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

Swallow Whole is not a feat in the SRD--it's opened up as a feat option in the Draconomicon, but we can't use that. As a special ability... this thing is Medium. So it could only swallow Tiny or smaller creatures, and unless you hate your player's familiars... not worth it.

I don't think the talons and wings should be included in the attacks line. I like just the bite and the sting. The poison also explicitly causes slowness, not sleep--if it caused sleep, there wouldn't need to be secondary damage that deadly, because the creature would just rip the head off of the sleeping prey. Temperate forests is good, though, and I like the bonus to Hide checks.

If we wanted to give it some pseudodragon flavor, we could say that it treats prey like a cat playing with a mouse--giving it a sting, letting it run for a while, toying with it.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

Leopold said:
			
		

> Needs to have worse flying or slower flying. This criter barely flies this thing is T-Rex with Wings (that's my mental picture I'm running with it).




Speed is fine (it matched the wyvern in 2e), but I'll agree it should probably be a clumsy flier.



demiurge1138 said:


> If we wanted to give it some pseudodragon flavor, we could say that it treats prey like a cat playing with a mouse--giving it a sting, letting it run for a while, toying with it.




I like that!

Toss out improved grab with the talons (from which the wyvern's is triggered)?


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> I'm fine with the revised stats, except somewhere along the way I screwed up and indavertently improved Int to 4, when these are clearly animal intelligence.  I've corrected that to 2.




That wasn't you, it was me. If you look back in post #965 you'll see it says "I'd use the stat of the Wyvern, but drop its Int to 2", but I just forgot to change it.



Shade said:


> I also retained the wyvern's full attack routine, and would like the advancement to follow the wyvern's up to Gargantuan.  I'm open to debate, though.




I prefer sting/bite/talon/talon myself and Advancement up to Huge.

EDIT: Although I'm fine with it just having bite/sting like the original.



Shade said:


> Some things we might borrow from the pseudodragon...
> 
> Add "and temperate forests" to the Environment line.
> Blindsense
> ...




Great minds think alike (at least partially), I'd back changing the Environment to "Warm or temperate hills and forests" and would consider a racial bonus to Hide. I'd also toyed with the notion of dropping its fly to clumsy, but its original manoeuvrability of D matched up with poor, while an AD&D wyvern is an even clumsier flier (type E). Still, it fits with it always landing to fight, so we might as well change it.

Blindsense I'd vote against, since there's nothing to support it in the original. There's no mention that it can _see invisible_ like the AD&D pseudodragon.

I still prefer _slow_ for its poison's initial effect.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

OK, there are a few minor errors in the attack lines. Some of the strength bonuses haven't been downgraded from a wyvern's. We've got:Attack: Sting +7 melee (1d4+2 plus poison) or talon +7 melee (1d8+2) or bite +7 melee (1d10+2)
Full Attack: Sting +7 melee (1d4+4 plus poison) and bite +5 melee (1d10+4) and 2 wings +5 melee (1d6+1) and 2 talons +5 melee (1d8+2)​when it should be:Attack: Sting +7 melee (1d4+2 plus poison) or talon +7 melee (1d8+2) or bite +7 melee (1d10+2)
Full Attack: Sting +7 melee (1d4+2 plus poison) and bite +5 melee (1d10+2) and 2 wings +5 melee (1d6+1) and 2 talons +5 melee (1d8+2)​That's assuming we don't drop the wing and/or talon attacks like I suggested in my previous post.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

I thought so at first, but check the SRD: Wyvern.

It appears to follow some bastardized twist on the true dragon overview, with bite, tail, and claws getting full strength and wing buffets getting half strength.


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## Cleon (Jun 17, 2009)

Shade said:


> I thought so at first, but check the SRD: Wyvern.
> 
> It appears to follow some bastardized twist on the true dragon overview, with bite, tail, and claws getting full strength and wing buffets getting half strength.




My suggested correction does have the Bloodstingers full damage bonus for bite, claw and tail and half to wing buffet. My point was that some of the attacks in the current version still have the +4 damage bonus from the wyvern's 19 Strength rather than the +2 from the 'stingers Str 15.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2009)

Shade said:


> Toss out improved grab with the talons (from which the wyvern's is triggered)?




I think so, yeah. We could keep the imp grab and attach it to the bite, perhaps, if you think they should be grappling.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2009)

I kinda like the bite n' grab, then sting at its leisure.

Updated.

So where are we at on the poison?   Let's get a quick vote on Dex damage vs. slow.

Cleon's for slow.
Demiurge is for Dex damage.

Where do the rest of you stand?


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## Leopold (Jun 18, 2009)

Attach the grab to the bite. This thing picks up it's prey and tosses it around and then rips it apart with it's mouth. It has claws but aren't used much as it's primary attack. T-Rex with Wings.


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## Cleon (Jun 18, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Attach the grab to the bite. This thing picks up it's prey and tosses it around and then rips it apart with it's mouth. It has claws but aren't used much as it's primary attack. T-Rex with Wings.




Switching the Improved Grab to bite works for me too, at least we seem to have a broad agreement on that.

Shall we start on skills & feats while we're voting on the venom?

Wyverns have the following skills:*Skills:* Hide +7, Listen +13, Move Silently +11, Spot +16
+3 racial bonus on Spot checks​Pseudodragons have:*Skills:* Diplomacy +2, Hide +20*, Listen +9, Search +6, Sense Motive +7, Spot +9, Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)
+4 racial bonus on Hide checks, improves to +8 inn forests or overgrown areas.​Diplomacy, Search and Sense Motive seem inappropriate, which leaves:*Skills:* Hide +?, Listen +?, Move Silently +?, Spot +?, Survival?​Give it +3 racial to Spot like a Wyvern and the pseudodragons +4/+8 racial to Hide?

It will only have 16 skill points (5HD+3 times 6 + -4 Int penalty = 8 times 2) so we'll need to spend them carefully. Might drop the Survival skill if we decide it can't spare the skill points. May have to add some more racial bonuses if we decide to bump up the skills.

I think the bloodstinger is a pursuit predator, so it finds its prey and chase it rather than lies in ambush or sneaks up on it. So, I'd put most of its points in Spot and Survival and a point or two in the others.
Hide 2, Listen 2, Move Silently 2, Spot 5, Survival 5​ Add in the ability modifiers and the previously suggested racial bonuses and we get:
*Skills: *Hide +7*, Listen +5, Move Silently +3, Spot +11, Survival +6​ Maybe move a couple of the skill points in Survival over to Move Silently, if we decide it needs more of a sneakiness to tracking balance.
*Skills: *Hide +7*, Listen +5, Move Silently +5, Spot +11, Survival +4​  Hmm, the Move Silently may be a bit low if we go the sneaky route. If we want to mend that we could switch all its survival skill points into MS or give it a +3 racial bonus to Move Silently to get:
*Skills: *Hide +7*, Listen +5, Move Silently +8, Spot +11, Survival +1 or +4​   As for feats, I'd say Alertness (as both wyverns and pseudodragon's have it), plus Ability Focus (poison) from the wyvern, the wyvern's other feat, FLyby attack, is inappropriate as the bloodstinger is a clumsy flier.
Feats: Ability Focus (poison), Alertness, Multiattack (B)​ Which do you lot prefer?


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## Leopold (Jun 19, 2009)

Skills: Hide +7*, Listen +5, Move Silently +3, Spot +11, Survival +6

I like this thing as a wait and then pounce. although it's similar to a raptor type critter it can hide and then attack.

I like the feats, they work for this guy

I'll vote for Dex Damage. cripple it then kill it.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

Except that Alertness is a crappy, boring feat and the bloodstinger already has very good senses. Drop Alertness, give it Iron Will or Power Attack or something.


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## Cleon (Jun 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Except that Alertness is a crappy, boring feat and the bloodstinger already has very good senses. Drop Alertness, give it Iron Will or Power Attack or something.




Yes, I know it's not a very exciting feat but the thing's only got Int 2, maybe it's too dumb to pick a good feat. Or it's played by a newbie.

That said, I would be fine with Iron Will as an alternative. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I think its attack bonus & damage is likely too low for it to get a lot of benefit from Power Attack.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> That's true. Opens up the Dodge tree, among others.




I still like this idea.

How about:  Ability Focus (poison), Dodge (B), Multiattack (B), Spring Attack?

Let's drop Survival and reallocate those ranks.  That skill is about as boring and useless to most (i.e. non-tracking) creatures as Toughness.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

Well, in order to get Spring Attack, it needs Mobility, and I'm fine with dropping Ability Focus (poison).


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2009)

You know, with that flavor about playing with food, a slow effect might be nice for the poison.  But Dex damage might be easier to deal with.  I'm torn.

I'm also fine with dropping ability focus for mobility if we like.


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## Cleon (Jun 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Let's drop Survival and reallocate those ranks.  That skill is about as boring and useless to most (i.e. non-tracking) creatures as Toughness.




Well it may not be exciting, but I think Survival skill is useful and appropriate for most wild creatures in 3E. They're not like civilized humanoids with houses, herds and crops to sustain them, but need to hunt/forage, find shelter, avoid natural hazards and not get lost or they may *die*. Given the choice, I'd give most of the SRD animals some racial bonus in survival just to help them, like, survive.

As for Dodge/Mobility/Spring Attack idea, that doesn't go with my concept of the beast (I see it more brutish than agile) but I'm fine with it if the rest of you prefer the bloodstinger that way.

Since bonus feats don't need prerequisites, you could drop the Dodge and Mobility and just give it Spring Attack (B), that would let us keep Ability Focus (poison) if we want it.


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## freyar (Jun 20, 2009)

That's a reasonable idea about the feats, and it would get another regular feat.  Thoughts?

Interesting thoughts about Survival.  I'd say, though, that Survival isn't really needed for wild animals after looking at the skill description.  Animals can take 10 on it since they're not rushed, so as long as they don't have a Wis penalty, they can feed themselves *and* move at 1/2 speed.  Furthermore, if they're in their native environment and not trying to go anywhere, that's probably +4 in circumstance bonus to their check.  So unless they're trying to track something, I don't think most animals need Survival.  Reasonable?


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## Cleon (Jun 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> That's a reasonable idea about the feats, and it would get another regular feat.  Thoughts?
> 
> Interesting thoughts about Survival.  I'd say, though, that Survival isn't really needed for wild animals after looking at the skill description.  Animals can take 10 on it since they're not rushed, so as long as they don't have a Wis penalty, they can feed themselves *and* move at 1/2 speed.  Furthermore, if they're in their native environment and not trying to go anywhere, that's probably +4 in circumstance bonus to their check.  So unless they're trying to track something, I don't think most animals need Survival.  Reasonable?




That's a good argument, it just doesn't feel right to me for many animals not to have Survival. I was more concerned about the DC15 checks against various forms of nature's unpleasantness. Giving them a circumstance bonus in their native terrain is effectively little different from giving them a racial bonus like I suggested earlier.

Hmm, I just realized that means humanoids can do the same take 10s, which means a D&D pen-pusher from some big city can be dropped in the middle of the jungle and they'll survive. That doesn't seem right. Even if they can't take 10, the "provide food and water for one other person for every 2 points by which your check result exceeds 10" bit should let them stockpile their good days' food to feed them on bad days.

Maybe civilized folks have a penalty to Survival checks?

Anyhows, getting back to the Bloodstinger I'd prefer to give it Survival and superior tracking ability, even if we have to give it Track as a bonus feat.

Although if nobody else fancies that I'd be OK with us just giving it the the default of being able to track a trail up to DC10 and just list its default Survival skill, that's what the SRD pseudodragon (the other half of the bloodstinger, so to speak) has with its "Survival +1 (+3 following tracks)".

The pseudodragon doesn't have and ranks in the skill, its +1 is just from Wisdom, and the +3 includes its synergy bonus from Search.


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## freyar (Jun 21, 2009)

I think Shade always puts in skills that have a synergy bonus.

I'd agree that a civilized person probably would get some kind of circumstance penalty if they've never really been outdoors before.  But someone who's traveled much wouldn't, I think.


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## Cleon (Jun 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> I think Shade always puts in skills that have a synergy bonus.




Well it doesn't matter in this case, since the bloodstinger doesn't get any synergy bonuses from the skill ranks it's got.

The bloodstinger is pretty close to done, apart from the haggling over its poison and feats. Oh, and its CR, but we can't really judge that until we've settled on what its poison does.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Good point on the bonus feats, Cleon, so Ability Focus (poison), Multiattack (B), Spring Attack (B), and either Alertness or Track?

I'm still not convinced that Survival is necessary.  Wolves also track by scent, and rely only on the bonuses granted from Wisdom and the scent ability when tracking.

It looks like there's more votes for Dex damage than slow at this point.  Let's make that the standard, but I'm willing to throw in a "sidebar" nothing some have variant "slow poisons" if you'd like.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

Let's go with Track for the last feat.  Whether we add Survival ranks or not, let's list it.

An alternate poison sidebar is a good idea!  More options.


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## Cleon (Jun 22, 2009)

Shade said:


> Good point on the bonus feats, Cleon, so Ability Focus (poison), Multiattack (B), Spring Attack (B), and either Alertness or Track?
> 
> I'm still not convinced that Survival is necessary.  Wolves also track by scent, and rely only on the bonuses granted from Wisdom and the scent ability when tracking.




Well I suggested a racial bonus of some sort as an alternative. If I remember correctly, that what the SRD does with wolves.

*goes to check*

Yup, wolves have a +4 racial bonus on survival checks when tracking by scent. I wouldn't give anything like that to the Bloodstinger though, there's no indication it has a keen sense of smell. I imagine it as more of a sight-hunter, with tracking as a back-up strategy.

I like the Ability Focus (poison), Multiattack (B), Spring Attack (B), Track feat selection. You can cut out its Survival ranks if you like, but I wouldn't mind if it still had a point or two in the skill.



Shade said:


> It looks like there's more votes for Dex damage than slow at this point.  Let's make that the standard, but I'm willing to throw in a "sidebar" nothing some have variant "slow poisons" if you'd like.




Works for me.


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2009)

Updated.

CR 4?


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## Leopold (Jun 22, 2009)

Less Hit dice, lower stats, and worse abilities than a CR6 wyvern. 4 is fine.


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## freyar (Jun 22, 2009)

Yeah, CR 4.

Edit: Hey, and this is post 1000, time to kill the thread!


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

Updated.  Finished?


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## Leopold (Jun 23, 2009)

looked through the critter, she looks good.


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## Cleon (Jun 23, 2009)

Leopold said:


> looked through the critter, she looks good.




I agree, looks good to go.

Would you mind starting part 2 of this thread and posting a link to it here, Shade?

EDIT: Just read the following post and remembered this is already part 2. Don't posts fly when people are enjoying themselves.


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## Shade (Jun 23, 2009)

I'll be happy to, but it's actually part *three*!


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## Shade (Jun 24, 2009)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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