# Converting monsters from Dungeon Magazine



## BOZ (Feb 29, 2004)

This thread continues my idea of “cooperative conversions” started in this thread, converting a series of monsters from similar sources. For this thread, we will be focusing on monsters that first appeared in Dungeon magazine.

What I will do is first post the creature’s original stats and flavor text. Then, I will post a basic outline of the things I think it needs, and then I will give you an opportunity to suggest stats and ideas on how powers and abilities should work. Then, I will add more to it and we will continue to discuss it until I feel it’s done and time to move on to the next. As we work on these creatures, they will be posted in this thread, and after 10 conversions are complete they will be added to the Creature Catalog. You may comment on monsters already finished, of course.

For a list of creatures to choose from, see this thread.  We will only be working on those creatures from magazines that appeared before the start of 3rd Edition, and that haven’t yet appeared in official WotC products, the Tome of Horrors, or the Creature Catalog.  You may feel free to make suggestions, but ultimately I will pick what to convert and when.  If I’m missing any monsters from this list or if any of these have appeared elsewhere already, feel free to inform me.


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## BOZ (Feb 29, 2004)

ok, here we go on the shimmering wraith.  when shade posts the original stats, we can really get going on this one.  


Wraith, Shimmering

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Summoned only by curse
ORGANIZATION: Special
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non (0)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral

NO. APPEARING: 1 the first day, 2 the second, 4 the third, 16 the fourth, 256 the fifth; on the sixth day and onward, attacks are nonstop
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4
THAC0: 17
NO. OF ATTACKS:	1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d6
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Shadow chill
SPECIAL DEFENSES:
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: 	M (5’-6’ tall)
MORALE:	Special
XP VALUE: Unaffected by cold, electricity, priestly turning attempts, or dispel magic

These entities are nonliving energies created by combining the forces of the Negative Energy Plane and the Quasi-elemental Plane of Lightning. Shimmering wraiths resemble shadows filled with sparkling points of light. They often go unnoticed until they coalesce into man-sized but irregular forms, just before attacking.

Shimmering wraiths speak no languages and are not known to communicate in any meaningful way.

Combat: These wraiths attack with a single touch, but a maximum of three wraiths can assault a man-sized creature at one time, and each inflicts 1d6 points of electrical damage, regardless of armor or clothing. Oddly, every hit point of damage a shimmering wraith inflicts lowers its own hit points by the exact same number, until the wraith dissipates.

Shimmering wraiths can be successfully struck by any weapon, but using a metallic weapon to touch or strike a wraith causes 1 point damage per successful touch to the attacker, as electricity surges through the weapon every time it contacts the monster.

It there is enough light (the equivalent of full daylight or a continual light spell) for a wraith to cast a shadow, it gains a second weapon. Anyone who is touched by the shadow of a wraith suffers 1d4 points of cold damage, regardless of armor or clothing. The Dungeon Master will have to determine the direction from which the light source emanates, and the area in which the wraith's shadow falls.

The wraiths are unaffected by cold or electrical attacks, and they cannot be turned like other wraiths, nor will a dispel spell eliminate them. However, a banishment spell will send them back to the Inner Planes from whence they came. When confronted with protective spells and wards such as protection from evil, wall of force, wall of iron, etc., or with physical barriers, the wraiths can become ethereal and penetrate most barriers (movement at half speed), then coalesce back into physical form and attack once more. They are nonintelligent, and their only tactic is to embrace their target.

Habitat/Society: Shimmering wraiths don't appear to have sentience, although they do recognize and pursue specific targets. They appear as the result of a curse uttered by an elemental being. Bound elementals cannot curse their masters, nor can they send shimmering wraiths from the Inner Planes to harass a former summoner, but if they break free of control while on the Prime Material Plane, they may curse a person for thwarting a plan or unsuccessfully attempting to bind them.

One day after the curse is laid, a single wraith appears and attacks the cursed character. The creature may be easily destroyed, but it reappears on the next day with another of its kind. Each day the number of shimmering wraiths is multiplied by itself, and the result is the number of them that will appear on the next day and so on until the cursed character is slain.

The only way to break the curse is to find the cursing elemental (if it is still on the Prime Material Plane) and either bind it or destroy it. If the elemental has returned to the Inner Planes, it must be summoned and bound, at which point it will withdraw its curse perforce. The creature must be satisfied or banished in order to keep it from cursing again.

Ecology: Some mages think that shimmering wraiths can be used to power wands	of lightning and similar items, but since they dissipate upon defeat and always fight to the death, no one can test the theory.


some preliminary stats for the shimmering wraith:

*Wraith, Shimmering*
Medium Outsider?
Hit Dice: 4d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares)
Armor Class: 16 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Touch +X melee (1d6)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: draining touch, shadow chill, electric backlash
Special Qualities: immunity to cold and electricity, turn immunity, immune to dispel magic?, cursed summons
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int ---, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: Negative Energy Plane?
Organization: Solitary or (varies)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---


A shimmering wraith is 5-6 feet tall and weighs

A shimmering wraith does not speak, and does not appear to communicate in any significant way.

COMBAT



Originally found in Dungeon Magazine #26 (“title,” date, author), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).


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## Shade (Feb 29, 2004)

And here are those stats.  Note that they were originally called "wraths" instead of "wraiths".

Shimmering Wrath

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any
FREQUENCY: Summoned only by the curse
ORGANIZATION: Special
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Non
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Neutral
NO. APPEARING: 1 the first day, 2 the second day, 4 the third day, 16 the fourth day, 256 the fifth day; on the sixth and later days, the attacks are nonstop
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: 12
HIT DICE: 4
THACO: 14
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 (electric shock)
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Shadow chills for 1-4
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Unaffected by cold, electricity, clerical turning, dispel magic
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M
MORALE : Special
XP VALUE: 175

These entities are combined nonliving energies created from the Negative Material plane and the elemental plane of Lightning. Resembling shadows filled with shimmering points of light, they often go unnoticed until they coalesce into mansize but irregular forms just before attacking the victims specified by the curse of the shimmering wrath of Dylihos.

The wraths attack by touch, with a maximum of three wraths attacking a size-M creature at a time, each dealing 1-6 hp electrical damage regardless of armor or clothing. Normal weapons can hit a wrath, and every hit point of damage a wrath inflicts lowers its own hit points by the same number until the wrath is dissipated.  In addition, using a metallic weapon to touch or strike a wrath causes 1-6 hp damage per touch to the attacker.

If enough light (the equivalent of full daylight) exists for a wrath to cast a shadow, anyone who is touched by the shadow of a wrath suffers 1-4 hp damage due to cold, regardless of armor or clothing. The wraths are unaffected by cold or electrical attacks and cannot be turned (as undead), nor will a dispel magic spell eliminate them. When confronted with protective spells and wards such as shield, protection from evil, wall of force, wall of iron, etc., or with physical barriers, the wraths simply become ethereal until the barrier is penetrated (movement at half speed) or circumvented, then coalesce into man form and attack once more.

Wraths are nonintelligent, and their only tactic is to embrace their targets. The wraths continue to appear on schedule, pursuing their victims anywhere through the material planes until the victims are destroyed.

Originally found in Dungeon Magazine #26 (“The Curse and the Quest", November/December 1990, p.42, by Craig Barrett and Cristopher Kederich).


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

To avoid reinventing the wheel, here's how the shocker from RTTOEE handles similar abilities:


*Electricity (Ex):* The touch attack of a shocker inflicts 1d8 points of electrical damage. This damage is dealt to the shocker as well. *Shocking Discharge (Ex):* If touched with bare flesh (including being struck in combat with a fist or claw) or a metallic weapon, the shocker delivers 1d8 points of damage to the attacker. This is true whether or not the attack is capable of affecting the shocker. The damage it inflicts is subtracted from the shocker's hit point total as well.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

I’m fine with calling it “wrath” instead of “wraith”.  I see no solid evidence to suggest that it is actually undead, so the name wraith can be misleading.

Odd how the shocker has such a similar ability!!  Hey, can you figure what sort of damage the shimmy’s touch does?  Is that electricity, cold, negative energy, or something else?

And here is a picture of the “wraith”, from MCA1:


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## Krishnath (Mar 1, 2004)

I say electricity.


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## BOZ (Mar 1, 2004)

is that based on preference, or did you gather that much from reading on it?


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## Shade (Mar 1, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m fine with calling it “wrath” instead of “wraith”. I see no solid evidence to suggest that it is actually undead, so the name wraith can be misleading.



Cool.  No sense confusing it with undead.  We could always mention in the flavor text that people sometimes mistake them for wraiths, hence the other name.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Odd how the shocker has such a similar ability!! Hey, can you figure what sort of damage the shimmy’s touch does? Is that electricity, cold, negative energy, or something else?



I get the impression that it does electricity damage with its touch.  If its shadow touches a creature, the shadow does cold damage.   I haven't figured out how negative energy figures into this thing at all.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And here is a picture of the “wraith”, from MCA1:



Cute.


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## Krishnath (Mar 2, 2004)

I think shade put it best, electricity appears to be the most logical choice for what type of damage it would deal.

Question: Elemental or Outsider?


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

Negative energy probably has nothing to do with this creature’s capabilities, but it is said to come from that plane.  That’s why I was asking what appropriate damage its touch attack should be…

It’s not impossible that this could be an elemental rather than an outsider, they are summoned by elementals after all…


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

I'd vote elemental.  There just aren't enough of 'em.


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## BOZ (Mar 2, 2004)

Allright, elemental it is fellas.    the question there is, doesn’t elemental require an energy-related subtype, and if so what would we use?  Is Electricity still a subtype?

“These wraiths attack with a single touch, but a maximum of three wraiths can assault a man-sized creature at one time, and each inflicts 1d6 points of electrical damage, regardless of armor or clothing.”  D’OH!   Sorry guys, I should have re-read before pestering you.


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## Shade (Mar 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Allright, elemental it is fellas.  the question there is, doesn’t elemental require an energy-related subtype, and if so what would we use? Is Electricity still a subtype?



From the SRD:  "An elemental is a being composed of one of the four classical elements: air, earth, fire, or water."

Unfortunately, Electricity isn't a subtype.  Krish and I had this discussion before in the video game thread, and he suggested the Electricity subtype would have electricity immunity and vulnerability to acid.   We both agreed that we need more subtypes.   That being said, to keep "in line", we could give it the Air subtype like many electrical beings have.

In a perfect world, these guys would have the Electricity and Negative subtypes.   Speaking of which, I propose the following...

*Negative Energy Adaptation (Ex):*  Shimmerwraths are immune to the detrimental effects typical of the Negative Energy Plane.

This will get around the age-old question:  "How do they survive there?"   Paging Mr. Yi, Mr. Xeg-Yi.   [Actually, the Negative Energy Plane writeup states that "Outsiders native to the Negative Energy Plane (including the xeg-yi) are immune to the detrimental effects typical of the plane."  I just wish they'd state that in the critter's writeup, too.]



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “These wraiths attack with a single touch, but a maximum of three wraiths can assault a man-sized creature at one time, and each inflicts 1d6 points of electrical damage, regardless of armor or clothing.” D’OH! Sorry guys, I should have re-read before pestering you.



No problem!


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2004)

Looking at these things more, I'm starting to think that they should be constructs. It states that they are "nonliving", they are mindless, and have ties to an elemental. Sounds like a golem, doesn't it?

If we do stick with elemental, we may not need a subtype. The xeg-yi is an elemental, and its only subtype is Incorporeal. Of course that is from the 3E MOTP, but the conversion guide didn't state otherwise (of course, it is unreliable).


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## BOZ (Mar 4, 2004)

hmm... i don't know about construct.  seems a bit of a stretch to me.  are there any constructs composed entirely of energy rather than matter?

i'm ok with only Extraplanar as a subtype, if everyone else is.


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## Shade (Mar 4, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm... i don't know about construct. seems a bit of a stretch to me. are there any constructs composed entirely of energy rather than matter?



Check out the quesar in Book of Exalted Deeds.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i'm ok with only Extraplanar as a subtype, if everyone else is.



Extraplanar works for me.  I'm fine with elemental, too, although a mindless elemental seems a bit...odd.


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## BOZ (Mar 8, 2004)

perhaps so, perhaps not.  there isn't that much of a difference from mindless to stupid.    of course, no skills or feats kinda sucks.

also, i could see no evidence that the quesar is composed of energy.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

True enough.   I looked at the quesar again, and it doesn't explicitly state that it is made of energy, although it appears to by made of light.

Let's just stick with elemental and move along.   Sorry for derailing the conversion train.


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## Shade (Mar 8, 2004)

Here are some thoughts at dealing with this:



> It there is enough light (the equivalent of full daylight or a continual light spell) for a wraith to cast a shadow, it gains a second weapon. Anyone who is touched by the shadow of a wraith suffers 1d4 points of cold damage, regardless of armor or clothing. The Dungeon Master will have to determine the direction from which the light source emanates, and the area in which the wraith's shadow falls.



Cast Shadow (Su):  In areas of shadowy illumination, a shimmering wrath casts a shadow.   The wrath's shadow deals 1d4 points of cold damage to any single creature within 5 feet of the wrath (wrath's choice of target).

This simplifies trying to determine where a shadow is cast.   If we want to make it a little more complicated and random, we could use the splash/grenadelike weapon chart, or say that the shadow is cast from the point opposite the light source.  However, this could get complicate in areas with multiple light sources.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

nah, i like that paragraph as it is - no need to make things extra complex when they're not a big thing.

and don't worry about expressing contrary opinions!  sometimes i learn a lot from people thinking differently from me!  you had me considering it for a moment.    i wish more people posted their thoughts in these threads (hint hint, all you lurkers!)


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## Filby (Mar 9, 2004)

About the quesar... _Planes of Conflict_ noted that a group of aasimon/angels went to Elysium and created the quesar from the earth of Belierin, the second layer, not energy.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

see, that's what i mean.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

Thanks filby, that sheds some _light_ on the situation!


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

i think the next thing we need to figure out is their ability scores.

Str and Con can be average (10-11) or they can be higher if that seems to make sense.

Dex should be higher than average.

Wis could be average, or higher.

Cha should probably be lower than average.

none of the attacks they have so far give saving throws, so the ability scores don't seem terribly important.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

I'm thinking Str 10, Dex 15, Con 11, Wis 11, Cha 1.


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## Filby (Mar 9, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Thanks filby, that sheds some _light_ on the situation!




Hehe! Glad to be of some help.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

Yep, those ability scores go with what I was thinking.  

more stuff:



> They often go unnoticed until they coalesce into man-sized but irregular forms, just before attacking.




should we assume that they spend most of their time discorporated into an energy form?



> The wraths are unaffected by cold or electrical attacks and cannot be turned (as undead), nor will a dispel magic spell eliminate them.




how much of this needs to be explained, and how much is irrelevant?  

additionally:


> However, a banishment spell will send them back to the Inner Planes from whence they came. When confronted with protective spells and wards such as protection from evil, wall of force, wall of iron, etc., or with physical barriers, the wraiths can become ethereal and penetrate most barriers (movement at half speed), then coalesce back into physical form and attack once more.





we need something like:

Shimmering wraths are only summoned through a specific curse uttered by an elemental against a being that has angered it.  Such an elemental cannot be bound, and must be on the same plane as the being it wishes to curse.  The only way to break this curse while any victim still lives is to destroy the elemental who summoned the shimmering wraths, or bind the elemental.  Binding the elemental will force it to withdraw the curse, but this may not prevent the elemental from restarting the curse if it should escape the binding.

Cursed Summons (Su): When an elemental places the curse of the shimmering wrath upon another being, a process begins which summons shimmering wraths to hunt those specific creatures.  All shimmering wraths are able to recognize their target and will pursue it relentlessly.  On the day after the curse is laid, a single shimmering wrath appears within X feet of the cursed victim and attacks.  If the shimmering wrath is destroyed, it reappears the next day and every day following with more of its kind, their numbers increasing exponentially every day (2 wraths on the second day, 4 the third, 16 the fourth, 256 the fifth, etc.).  The wraths continue to come every day in greater numbers until the victim is destroyed or the curse is stopped.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

also, CR shouldn't be more than 2 or 3.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> should we assume that they spend most of their time discorporated into an energy form?



We could do that.  Should it be like gaseous form, etherealness, incorporeality, or something else? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how much of this needs to be explained, and how much is irrelevant?



Really, only the cold and electrical immunity, and it can be handled on the SQ line.

The bypassing barriers will depend on our answers to your first question.   

The cursed summons looks good!


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

it does mention becoming ethereal.  

and why would they mention dispel magic as a threat - does/did that spell affect summoned creatures?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> it does mention becoming ethereal.



Well, I'd say that answers that question.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> and why would they mention dispel magic as a threat - does/did that spell affect summoned creatures?



Sure enough.  From the dispel magic spell description:  "If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object."


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

aha!  but these guys are not summoned via a spell, so then dispel magic would not work anyway?


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2004)

I agree with you.  Ditch the text.


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## BOZ (Mar 9, 2004)

ok, posting in homebrews.  

this might seem like a silly request, but could you please go to the main GMT forum, and post a link to this thread in this thread?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

A Medium air elemental weighs 2 lbs.  Should these guys weigh much more?

Perhaps for the "go ethereal" power (borrowed from the ethereal marauder and phase spider):

*Ethereal Jaunt (Su):* A shimmering wrath can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action. The ability is otherwise identical with the ethereal jaunt spell (caster level 15th).
I'd go with CR 3.  The ethereal marauder is CR 3, with one more HD but no other abilities other than the ethereal jaunt.  These guys have some immunities and two ways to deal damage, so I'd say that makes up for the lower HD and lack of skills and feats.


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

that'll do.

for the weight, they should weigh very little.  less than 10 lbs sounds good.  or maybe we could go with the line from that wierd al song, "and my shadow weighs 42 pounds, can you tell me once again, who's fat!"  

ok, updating.  one of the nice things about no skills and feats, is that we're probably done now.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

Yep, mindless makes things easy.  That's why I love creating golems.  They take all of five minutes.   Pick a theme, assign a Str and Dex score, pick X/adamantine DR, decide what spells affect it, slap a CR on it, and you're done.   

We still need to fill in the "X feet of the victim" of the cursed summons ability.  How about the usual 30 feet?


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## BOZ (Mar 10, 2004)

i just threw that part in there to make it make more sense.    30 feet sounds good - i would expect it to be within visual range (to be more intimidating for the victim) but not necessarily right on top of the person.

if everything else looks good, then we're done.


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2004)

I think we've got it.   I've already typed up the Dungeon stats for the house hunter and tuyewara.  Just let me know when you're ready for them.


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

Tuyewera

CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Tropical land
FREQUENCY: Uncommon
ORGANIZATION: Band
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Nil
INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10)
TREASURE:	Nil
ALIGNMENT:	Any evil

NO. APPEARING:	1d3
ARMOR CLASS:	8
MOVEMENT:	6
HIT DICE: 6
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS:	1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1d4 or by weapon
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Steal breath, cause disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES: See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE:	Nil
SIZE:	M (6' tall)
MORALE:	Special
XP VALUE: 	975

The tuyewera is a horrible type of undead monster created by evil clerics in remote jungle villages. The cleric takes the corpse of a man slain by death magic spells and ritually removes the legs at the knees. The tongue is also severed. The, cleric then enchants the corpse, bringing the ancestral spirit of a wizard or priest into it, which gives the corpse a horrid animation.

The tuyewera moves about on its hands and leg stumps. It is as intelligent as a man and has the following thieflike skills: MS 50%; HS 90%; OL 50%. It serves as a thief and bodyguard to the cleric in addition to being an assassin.

Combat: A tuyewera can use a weapon in melee, but it is restricted to using weapons that can be held in one hand, since the other hand is needed for balance and movement. If disarmed, a tuyewera will strike with its gnarled hand for 1d4 points of damage. Furthermore, each successful hit by the hand has a 25% chance to inflict a fatal disease on its opponent (as per the spell cause disease).

The deadliest attack of the tuyewera is its ability to drain breath. If it encounters a sleeping, unconscious, or helpless person, a tuyewera can suck the breath out of the victim's mouth, thereby slaying him. This requires one full round, at the end of which the victim must roll a successful saving vs. death magic with a -4 penalty. If he fails to save, he is instantly slain, but if he successfully makes his saving throw, he falls into a deathlike coma for 1d4 days.

As undead, tuyeweras are immune to all mental attacks, cold, sleep, and fear. Holy water inflicts 2d4 points of damage per successful attack with a full vial. Tuyeweras are turned as spectres, but an evil cleric cannot take control of a tuyewera away from the cleric who created it.

A special enchantment goes into the making of a tuyewera that renders it immune to all weapons (turning and destructive magic such as fireball are still effective). However, dispel magic removes this enchantment for 1d4 rounds. Clerics who create tuyeweras keep this counterspell handy just in case they meet someone else's tuyewera.

Habitat/Society: The spells and counterspells used for creating tuyeweras are granted only by the deities of evil witch doctors in tropical lands. Such spells are not normally available to PCs who do not visit these lands. It is recommended that PCs be unable to create such monsters, but they should be able to use the counterspells to make tuyeweras vulnerable to attack.

Ecology: As created undead, tuyewera have nothing to contribute to the ecology. They are little more than despicable machines made to do their misguided masters' bidding.  They eat nothing, and there is no known use for their parts once they are slain.



some preliminary stats for the tuyewera:

*Tuyewera*
Medium Undead
Hit Dice: 6d12 (39 hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares)
Armor Class: 12 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+X
Attack: Weapon +X melee (X+X) or slam +X melee (1d4+X plus disease)
Full Attack: Weapon +X melee (X+X) or slam +X melee (1d4+X plus disease)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: steal breath, cause disease
Special Qualities: immunity to weapons, darkvision 60 ft, undead traits
Saves: Fort +(2) Ref +(2) Will +(5)
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: 36
Feats: 3 (bonus to Move Silently, Hide, Open Locks)

Environment: Any warm land
Organization: Solitary or band (2-3)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always evil (any)
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


A tuyewera is 6 feet tall and weighs X pounds.


COMBAT


Originally found in Dungeon Magazine #X (“title,” month/year, author), and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

Here's the Dungeon Mag version...

Tuyewera
CLIMATE/TERRAIN:  Tropical, any terrain
FREQUENCY:  Uncommon
ORGANIZATION:  Bands
ACTIVITY CYCLE:  Any
DIET:  Nil
INTELLIGENCE:  Average
TREASURE TYPE:  Nil
ALIGNMENT:  Any evil
NO. APPEARING:  1-3
ARMOR CLASS:  8
MOVEMENT:  6
HIT DICE:  6
THACO: 15
NO.OF ATTACKS: 1 weapon or fist
DAMAGE/ATTACK:  By weapon type or 1-4
SPECIAL ATTACKS:  Steals breath, causes disease
SPECIAL DEFENSES:  See below
MAGIC RESISTANCE:  Standard
SIZE:  M
MORALE:  Special
XP VALUE:  2,000

The tuyewera is a horrible type of undead monster created by evil clerics in remote jungle villages.  The cleric takes the corpse of a man slain by death-magic spells and ritually removes the legs at the knees.  The tongue is also severed.  The cleric then enchants the corpse, bringing the ancestral spirit of a mage or priest into it to give the corpse a horrid animation.

The tuyewera moves about on its hands and leg stumps.  It is as intelligent as a man and has the following thieflike skills:  move silently 50%, hide in shadows 90%, pick locks 50%.  It serves as a thief and bodyguard to the cleric in addition to being an assassin.

A tuyewera can use a weapon in melee but is restricted to using weapons that can be held in one hand, since the other hand is needed for balance and movement.  If disarmed, a tuyewera will strike with its gnarled hand for 1-4 hp damage.  Each hit by the hand has a 25% chance to inflict a fatal disease on its opponent, as per the spell cause disease in the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook.

The deadliest attack of the tuyewera is its ability to drain breath.  If it encounters a sleeping, unconscious, or helpless person, a tuyewera can suck the breath out of the victim's mouth, thereby slaying him.  This requires one full round, at the end of which the victim must save vs. death magic at -4.  If he fails to save, he is instantly slain; if he makes his saving throw, he is placed in a deathlike coma for 1-4 days.

As undead, tuyeweras are immune to all mental attacks, cold, sleep, and fear.  Holy water does 2-8 hp damage per vial.  Tuyeweras are turned as spectres, but an evil cleric cannot take control of a tuyewera away from the cleric who created it.

A special enchantment goes into the making of a tuyewera that renders it immune to all weapons (turning and destructive magic, such as fireball, are still effective).  However, there is always a counterspell that removes this enchantment.  Clerics who create tuyeweras keep this counterspell handy, just in case they meet someone else's tuyewera.

The spells and counterspells used for creating tuyeweras are granted only by the deities of evil witch doctors in tropical lands.  Such spells are not normally available to PCs who do not visit these lands.  It is recommended that PCs be unable to create such monsters, but they should be able to use the counterspells to make the tuyeweras vulnerable to attack.

The legendary version of this monster is described in "Out of Africa," in DRAGON issue #122.

"The Leopard Men" by David Howery, Dungeon Magazine #22, March/April 1990, p.35.


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> The legendary version of this monster is described in "Out of Africa," in DRAGON issue #122.




very interesting.    we might convert that one separately one day.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

For ability scores, here are some similarly-sized corporeal undead for comparison.

Ghast:  Str 17, Dex 17, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16
Ghoul:  Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Mummy:  Str 24, Dex 10, Con —, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 15
Vampire:  Str 22, Dex 17, Con -, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
Zombie:  Str 12, Dex 8, Con —, Int —, Wis 10, Cha 1

That gives us a range of:

Str 12-24, Dex 8-17, Con -, Int 10, Wis 10-16, Cha 12-16

They seem like they'd be strong, but missing its legs would be a definite detriment to Dexterity.  Perhaps Str 20, Dex 9, Wis 12, Cha 12?

Also, since they are turned "as spectres", we should give them +2 turn resistance like the spectre.


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## BOZ (Mar 16, 2004)

Str 20 is kinda high, how about 18?  If it looks like they have any attacks that would be based off of Cha, we might want to raise that score a bit.  The other scores sound fine.

Actually, for turn resistance, “as specters” would mean the same HD level… if specters are effectively 9-HD for turning, we could make them +3.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

18 Str works for me.  Same goes for Cha boost, if necessary.

Good call on the turn resistance.  I didn't think of it that way, but it makes sense.


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## Shade (Mar 16, 2004)

> The deadliest attack of the tuyewera is its ability to drain breath. If it encounters a sleeping, unconscious, or helpless person, a tuyewera can suck the breath out of the victim's mouth, thereby slaying him. This requires one full round, at the end of which the victim must roll a successful saving vs. death magic with a -4 penalty. If he fails to save, he is instantly slain, but if he successfully makes his saving throw, he falls into a deathlike coma for 1d4 days.





> The deadliest attack of the tuyewera is its ability to drain breath. If it encounters a sleeping, unconscious, or helpless person, a tuyewera can suck the breath out of the victim's mouth, thereby slaying him. This requires one full round, at the end of which the victim must save vs. death magic at -4. If he fails to save, he is instantly slain; if he makes his saving throw, he is placed in a deathlike coma for 1-4 days.



For this ability, we can probably borrow from the breathdrinker in the MM2...

*Steal Breath (Su):* As a full-round action, a tuyewera can attempt to suck the air from the lungs of any helpless creature within reach. The target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw (DC X) or take 1d6 points of Constitution damage. The target dies when his or her Constitution score reaches 0. The tuyewera heals 5 points of damage for each point of Constitution the target loses, gaining any excess as temporary hit points. So long as the target remains helpless, the tuyewera continues to use this attack against that creature every round until it dies. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2004)

> A special enchantment goes into the making of a tuyewera that renders it immune to all weapons (turning and destructive magic such as fireball are still effective). However, dispel magic removes this enchantment for 1d4 rounds. Clerics who create tuyeweras keep this counterspell handy just in case they meet someone else's tuyewera.



Should we keep this as total immunity to weapon attacks, or make it into some form of damage reduction?


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## BOZ (Mar 18, 2004)

I’d say it just as it sounds – a special immunity to manufactured weapons (or maybe even natural weapons?) that can be dispelled by dispel magic for 1d4 rounds.


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## Shade (Mar 18, 2004)

Cool.  In that case, I'd make it immune to manufactured weapons, natural weapons, and unarmed strikes.

What do you think about the steal breath ability?


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## Shade (Mar 26, 2004)

Heres the information from Dragon #122.

The tuyewera, a specialty of the Kaonde people of Zambia, is a Frankenstein-like combination of an exhumed corpse and an enslaved soul. To create a tuyewera, Kaonde sorcerers first procure the body of a person who has been slain by witchcraft.  The legs of the corpse are then severed at the knees, and its tongue is cut out. The sorcerer then animates the tuyewera with the soul of an ancestor who was known to have practiced witchcraft.

The result of this procedure is an unkillable fiend that can steal, cause illness, and kill at the sorcerer's command. At night, the tuyewera is invisible. It moves by hitching itself on its hands and the stumps of its legs. It kills by sucking the breath out of sleeping victims. The only way to stop a tuyewera is to invoke an incantation that induces the spirit of the witch ancestor to leave the revived corpse. At that point, the maker of the tuyewera loses control over his creation, and the corpse swiftly decomposes. Kaonde sorcerers frequently sold tuyeweras to people who sought the services of a quiet assassin.

"Out of Africa" by Charles R. Saunders, DRAGON Magazine #122, June 1987, p.27.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

ooh, I’ve all but ignored this poor guy!    time to try to make up for that…

Cha probably needs to be higher than 12, maybe more like 16 or so.

I like your steal breath writeup.  A few nits to pick, though:
Undead cannot have Constitution-based DCs.  
I think the effect should be more deadly – say 3d4 Con per round.  Why?  “This requires one full round, at the end of which the victim must roll a successful saving vs. death magic with a -4 penalty. If he fails to save, he is instantly slain, but if he successfully makes his saving throw, he falls into a deathlike coma for 1d4 days.”  Granted, D&D no longer uses insta-kill attacks, but we replace such things with very damaging attacks.  And what about that coma on a successful save, if you make the save does that make you immune to further attacks from the steal breath?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> ooh, I’ve all but ignored this poor guy!  time to try to make up for that…



This guy's got bigger problems than you ignoring him...he's got no legs or tongue!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Cha probably needs to be higher than 12, maybe more like 16 or so.



Agreed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I like your steal breath writeup. A few nits to pick, though:
> Undead cannot have Constitution-based DCs.



I can't take credit for the writeup...I borrowed if from the MM2 breathdrinker.

I can, however, take credit for mistakenly giving an undead creature a Con-based save DC.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I think the effect should be more deadly – say 3d4 Con per round. Why? “This requires one full round, at the end of which the victim must roll a successful saving vs. death magic with a -4 penalty. If he fails to save, he is instantly slain, but if he successfully makes his saving throw, he falls into a deathlike coma for 1d4 days.” Granted, D&D no longer uses insta-kill attacks, but we replace such things with very damaging attacks. And what about that coma on a successful save, if you make the save does that make you immune to further attacks from the steal breath?



Agreed on increasing the deadliness.   I'm not sure about the coma...that would be awful powerful for a 6 HD creature.   I don't think people should be immune to the effect for 24 hours, but I'm open to the possibility.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

Here’s what I’m thinking, something like this:

Steal Breath (Su): As a full-round action, a tuyewera can attempt to suck the air from the lungs of any helpless creature within reach. The target must make a successful Fortitude saving throw (DC X) or take 3d4 points of Constitution damage. The target dies when its Constitution score reaches 0. The tuyewera heals 5 points of damage for each point of Constitution the target loses, gaining any excess as temporary hit points. So long as the target remains helpless, the tuyewera continues to use this attack against that creature every round until it dies. If a target succeeds at any saving throw, instead of the Constitution drain it will fall into a deathlike coma for 1d4 days, and will be immune to a tuyewera’s steal breath ability for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

(is there a 3e equivalent to feign death, or something like it?  Failing that, suspended animation?)

another thought – the Con drain should probably be temporary (i.e., recoverable) in case the character survives.  There’s nothing good about having a Con of 4 for the rest of your life.    however, yes, if you reach Con 0 you’re dead.


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

I agree that it should be Con damage, not Con drain.

Hmm...the closest 3E equivalent to feign death I could find was an ability possessed by the ghostwalker prestige class, but it didn't really seem like a coma.  Would this do the trick?

"The creature remains alive, but is helpless.  The comatose creature cannot move or act, nor can it take purely mental actions.   It has effective Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 0."


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

> I agree that it should be Con damage, not Con drain.




d’oh.    it already says that… sometimes I get confused between damage and drain.



> Hmm...the closest 3E equivalent to feign death I could find was an ability possessed by the ghostwalker prestige class, but it didn't really seem like a coma. Would this do the trick?
> 
> "The creature remains alive, but is helpless. The comatose creature cannot move or act, nor can it take purely mental actions. It has effective Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores of 0."




perfecto, actually!


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

Great!  When you get an opportunity, let me know what you think about my other ramblings in this thread.


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## BOZ (Apr 2, 2004)

what did i miss?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2004)

I was thinking that we hadn't come up with the ability scores and such.  But upon scrolling back, I now realize that we have.  :\ 

How about a Homebrews update to keep me on track.


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## BOZ (Apr 3, 2004)

your wish is my command.  

more stuff (maybe we talked about some of this already):


> Furthermore, each successful hit by the hand has a 25% chance to inflict a fatal disease on its opponent (as per the spell cause disease).




how can we work this?  Just switch the % chance for a saving throw?  And we can substitute the contagion spell.



> As undead, tuyeweras are immune to all mental attacks, cold, sleep, and fear. Holy water inflicts 2d4 points of damage per successful attack with a full vial. Tuyeweras are turned as spectres, but an evil cleric cannot take control of a tuyewera away from the cleric who created it.




some of that is covered by the undead type.  Also, give it cold immunity and we already gave it turn resistance.  I’m pretty sure there is a holy water standard damage already right?  And should we keep that line about not taking control of a tuyewera away from its creator?



> A special enchantment goes into the making of a tuyewera that renders it immune to all weapons (turning and destructive magic such as fireball are still effective). However, dispel magic removes this enchantment for 1d4 rounds. Clerics who create tuyeweras keep this counterspell handy just in case they meet someone else's tuyewera.




I remember getting into this a little…

There isn’t too much left to work on for these guys.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> your wish is my command.



You are truly a noble djinn.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how can we work this? Just switch the % chance for a saving throw? And we can substitute the contagion spell.



Yeah, I'd ditch the percentage, and make it as the contagion spell.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> some of that is covered by the undead type. Also, give it cold immunity and we already gave it turn resistance. I’m pretty sure there is a holy water standard damage already right? And should we keep that line about not taking control of a tuyewera away from its creator?



The holy water standard:  "A direct hit by a flask of holy water deals 2d4 points of damage to an undead creature or an evil outsider. Each such creature within 5 feet of the point where the flask hits takes 1 point of damage from the splash."   That should cover it.

As for the not taking control away, perhaps we should rewrite it to "a tuyewera cannot be commanded by any cleric other than the creator" or somesuch.   They should still be able to rebuke them.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I remember getting into this a little…



Yep, you said:  "I’d say it just as it sounds – a special immunity to manufactured weapons (or maybe even natural weapons?) that can be dispelled by dispel magic for 1d4 rounds."   That should work, except I'd make it immune to all weapon attacks (natural, manufactured, and unarmed strikes).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> There isn’t too much left to work on for these guys.



We're getting there.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'd ditch the percentage, and make it as the contagion spell.




how about:
Contagion (Su?): Any creature struck by a tuyewera’s slam attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC X) or contract a debilitating disease.  This spell causes (X disease) and affects the creature as a contagion spell (caster level X).



> As for the not taking control away, perhaps we should rewrite it to "a tuyewera cannot be commanded by any cleric other than the creator" or somesuch.   They should still be able to rebuke them.




how about:
“Bond With Creator” (Ex): A tuyewera is bound to the cleric that created it, and will always follow the commands of its creator.  A tuyewera cannot be commanded by any cleric other than the creator, even if rebuked.



> Yep, you said:  "I’d say it just as it sounds – a special immunity to manufactured weapons (or maybe even natural weapons?) that can be dispelled by dispel magic for 1d4 rounds."   That should work, except I'd make it immune to all weapon attacks (natural, manufactured, and unarmed strikes).




how about:
Immune to Weapons (Sp?): A tuyewera is immune to all weapon attacks, including natural and manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes.  If a dispel magic spell is cast on a tuyewera, this ability will be dispelled for 1d4 rounds.


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## Shade (Apr 5, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how about_:
> Contagion (Su?): Any creature struck by a tuyewera’s slam attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC X) or contract a debilitating disease. This spell causes (X disease) and affects the creature as a contagion spell (caster level X).



We can probably cut out the spell references altogether, and pare it down to...

Contagion (Su): Any creature struck by a tuyewera’s slam attack must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC X) or contract (X disease), which strikes immediately (no incubation period). 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about_:
> “Bond With Creator” (Ex): A tuyewera is bound to the cleric that created it, and will always follow the commands of its creator. A tuyewera cannot be commanded by any cleric other than the creator, even if rebuked.



Excellent! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> how about_:
> Immune to Weapons (Sp?): A tuyewera is immune to all weapon attacks, including natural and manufactured weapons and unarmed strikes. If a dispel magic spell is cast on a tuyewera, this ability will be dispelled for 1d4 rounds.



Another success story.     I'd make it Su, though.


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## BOZ (Apr 5, 2004)

rockin!


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## BOZ (Apr 6, 2004)

updated in homebrews, how's he looking?


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## Shade (Apr 6, 2004)

How about a scimitar for the weapon in the stat block?  I picture it wielding a bloody machete...and scimitar seems the closest fit.   

For weight, how about average human weight, minus enough to account for missing legs, of course.   

For advancement, I'd prefer to go with 7-12 HD (Large), 13-18 HD (Huge), rather than "by character class", simply to account for tuyewaras made from ogres and giants.   

Save DCs should be 16 for Cha-based abilities.

I'd prefer racial bonus over using Str for Dex-based skills.

Suggested Feats:  Stealthy, Nimble Fingers, Improved Init or Ability Focus (steal breath), and Two-Weapon Fighting (just kidding on that one.)

CR 5 or 6?


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> For weight, how about average human weight, minus enough to account for missing legs, of course.




how much would that be, you think?  100 lbs?  what is an average human weight?



> For advancement, I'd prefer to go with 7-12 HD (Large), 13-18 HD (Huge), rather than "by character class", simply to account for tuyewaras made from ogres and giants.




don't know why i didn't fill that in already...



> I'd prefer racial bonus over using Str for Dex-based skills.




it'll have to be generous, since the Dex is so crappified.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how much would that be, you think? 100 lbs? what is an average human weight?



An average human weighs 150 pounds.  The human leg weighs 25-35 lbs (it's amazing what you can find on the internet).  Thus 150 - 50 = 100 lbs.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it'll have to be generous, since the Dex is so crappified.



Agreed.   I'd say at least +8.   We could always raise their Dex, too, if necessary.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> An average human weighs 150 pounds. The human leg weighs 25-35 lbs (it's amazing what you can find on the internet). Thus 150 - 50 = 100 lbs.




lucky guess for me.  



> Agreed. I'd say at least +8. We could always raise their Dex, too, if necessary.




we could raise their Dex, but wasn’t part of the point that they are clumsy and slow?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

Slow, yes, but I reread both descriptions and didn't see anything that led me to believe they were'nt agile. They simply need one hand to keep them balanced while attacking with the other hand, which makes sense.

The fact that they are rogue- and assassin-like makes me think that they actually should be dextrous.

Of course, I'm the joker who originally recommended the low Dex.


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## BOZ (Apr 7, 2004)

[NELSON]ha ha![/NELSON]

how about a Dex of at least 16 now?


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2004)

That sounds much better.


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## BOZ (Apr 9, 2004)

OK, time for some cleanup.

What’s the thing most left over, skills?  We have 36 skill points, how about the following ranks:
Bluff 5, Escape Artist 6, Hide 7, Listen 7, Move Silently 2, Open Locks 2, Spot 7
Was it a +8 bonus to Move Silently, Hide, and Open Locks?  Maybe it doesn’t need to be as high with a Dex of 16.

What disease should we use for the Contagion power?  The original description was listed as “a fatal disease,” so maybe one that does Con damage?

Don’t see much else to fix there.


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> What’s the thing most left over, skills? We have 36 skill points, how about the following ranks:
> Bluff 5, Escape Artist 6, Hide 7, Listen 7, Move Silently 2, Open Locks 2, Spot 7
> Was it a +8 bonus to Move Silently, Hide, and Open Locks? Maybe it doesn’t need to be as high with a Dex of 16.



It was +8.  I think +8 racial and +3 for Dex will make them sufficiently roguelike for their HD.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> What disease should we use for the Contagion power? The original description was listed as “a fatal disease,” so maybe one that does Con damage?



If you're looking for Con damage, it would be one of the following:  filth fever, demon fever, or slimy doom.  Of course, we could always make our own.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

filth fever sounds the least inappropriate...  

also, should we give it an LA?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

The fact that I can't imagine someone wanting to play a legless, tongueless undead almost guaratees that someone will want to.   

However, ghouls and ghasts are "-", so I'd go with "-" on these guys as well.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

updating...


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Let's make the italicized description "spookier."  Something like...

_What at first appears to be a slumped over animated corpse, with its legs severed at the knees, begins to rise.  Its eyes glow with an unholy green light, and it wields a blood-stained scimitar in one filthy green hand while balancing on its other gnarled hand._

Otherwise, I think it's about finished.


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## BOZ (Apr 12, 2004)

that is better.    otherwise lookin good?


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## Shade (Apr 12, 2004)

Yeah, it looks good to me.   I've got the house hunter text typed up and awaiting your command.


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## BOZ (Apr 13, 2004)

right awn!  soon, soon...


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## releasethedogs (Apr 19, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> nah, i like that paragraph as it is - no need to make things extra complex when they're not a big thing.
> 
> and don't worry about expressing contrary opinions! sometimes i learn a lot from people thinking differently from me! you had me considering it for a moment.  i wish more people posted their thoughts in these threads (hint hint, all you lurkers!)



personally ... i'm glad you struck it down, the cast shadow ability. i just got done creating a undead that has a VERY similar ability. i was all jazzed, and i was like *yeah! this new monster is so original. and i was all proud* then i read that and i was like Nooooooooooo. hehe

i dont have a name for the monster yet but they are created when people die during an eclipse and certin other conditions are met. yay for undead. saw the new dawn of the dead the other day ... good except ZOMBIES CANT RUN. yeah iam rambling ... sorry.


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## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

Mimic, House Hunter


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## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

House hunters are large relatives of mimics. They have lost some of the latter's camouflage versatility, but they have gained the ability to live above ground.

House hunters form hard shells that look like stone, wood, or thatch, lending the appearance of a building. Young house hunters look like smaller structures such as outhouses and sheds, adults are the size of cottages and small houses, while ancient creatures are larger still, with elaborate shells that can resemble inns, temples, or ruined towers. All three sizes of this monster can produce dim, flickering light (bioluminescence), resembling candle or lantern light, at any body opening, and they can imitate domestic noises (muffled voices, clucking hens, the tolling of a temple bell, etc.).

	Bony plates resembling doors and shutters cover the shell openings, protecting and hiding their mouths, eyestalks, and huge tentacles – each specimen has a tongue that is 2 feet long per Hit Die, two eyestalks that are 6 inches long per Hit Die, and two tentacles that are 1 foot long per Hit Die. The bony plates are opened and shut by the use of strong muscles that function like those of clams. These apertures can be forced open by making a successful open doors roll. There is a wide variety in the locations of these openings: Some of these creatures have them all along the fronts of the "buildings," while others have mouths and eyes at the front, but tentacles at the left and right sides. Ancient house hunters often have extra tentacles, which may be arrayed on all sides of the structure.

Adult and ancient house hunters can talk, but they only speak a crude form of Common. Sages speculate that they communicate telepathically within a 10-mile range.

Combat: A house hunter attacks by extruding its tongue and limbs and wrapping those appendages around nearby victims (one appendage per victim). Each extremity makes a separate attack roll, suffering a -2 penalty if it is on a side that lacks an eyestalk. A successful hit indicates the member has caught its target, whereupon it will inflict damage   at the end of that and each ensuing round, continuing to do so until the victim appears to be dead or breaks free. The caught character must immediately roll a successful Dexterity check to avoid having his or her inns trapped too - if the roll fails by more than 4, both arms are pinned to the sides of the victim's body and no counterattacks are possible. If only one limb is caught, the DM must roll to determine randomly which arm has been pinned down, and thence whether counterattacks are possible.

The creature’s tongue and tentacles are covered with a musty-smelling adhesive slime; those caught by any of those appendages must make a successful Strength check in order to break free. The victim may either attempt to escape or attack (depending upon whether his weapon arm is free) in a single round, but not both.

An unresisting opponent is assumed dead by the captor house hunter, and the victim will be dropped after five additional rounds of constriction. Once all adversaries have been dealt with, the bodies are picked up by the house hunter's tongue and pulled into its mouth at the rate of one per round. Victims lying along the blind side of the monster are taken in first, followed by those along the sides with eyestalks. Anyone pretending to be dead suffers one more round of constriction damage as he is picked up, but he still has one last chance to pull free in that round before being dragged inside the house hunter.

Once inside the monster, only small, hand-held stabbing weapons - the size of a short sword or smaller - may be used to attack (consider the creature's insides to be AC 10). If any damage is inflicted, the house hunter uses its appendages to eject the person from its shell and then constricts him again until he ceases to resist for five rounds, escapes, or the monster dies. Bodies within a house hunter are fully digested and unrecoverable after 1d4 turns.

Note that the tongue, eyestalks, and tentacles of the house hunter are actually pseudopods; if any member is amputated in combat, it regrows in 1d4 turns, and all damage sustained by that appendage is returned to the creature's hit point total.

House hunters aren't damaged by sunlight, but they don't like to expose their flesh and eyes to it. Hence, they prefer to travel by night, and they delay their attacks until after dusk if possible. If forced to fight by day, they make all attacks with -2 penalties.

House-hunter shells are thick enough to reduce both normal and magical heat and cold damage by 1 point per Hit Die of damage. If one’s hit point total falls below 10, it pulls in all of its appendages, shuts all openings, and attempts to move away from its attackers.

Habitat/Society: House hunters are pack animals, cooperating to capture their prey. Young house hunters rarely attack until an adult has taken the initiative. They all have good hearing and can sense the vibration of footsteps of man-sized and larger creatures that are 120 ' yards away. They are also intelligent enough to delay their attack until they call reap the maximum reward. For example, they won't attack a single scout if there is a large party approaching behind.

The reproduction of these monsters remains a mystery, though an adult has been seen digging a large hole in the earth with its foot, then depositing its single live young in the hole. The creature subsequently made its way out of that hole and followed its mother. Shells apparently grow in size with their owners, and they are shaped over long periods of time to resemble particular buildings that the house hunters have probably seen in their limited travels.

Ecology: Treasure is usually found inside a house hunter's shell, either within the stomach or embedded in the shell wall. Such treasure consist,' of the undigestible remains of the monster's victims, including coins, gems, and similar small it items. Some treasure may be encysted in layers of shell, like pears, but these lumps have no jewel value. Occasionally, a magical item or rare antiquity may be found within the monster. A cursed item is especially possible, since those characters carrying truly powerful weapons or items would be much more likely to successfully repel the attack of a house hunter and escape. Assume that adult house hunters have a 5% chance to contain a magical item and that ancients have a 10% chance. Further, such items found in either type are 60%, likely to be magically cursed.

The underside of a house hunter has no armor. It is a slippery foot resembling that of a snail, though it isn't especially adhesive. When the creature moves, the outer shell raises slightly to allow movement over open ground, debris, etc.

If cleaned out thoroughly, a house hunter's shell can be converted into a crude dwelling.



some preliminary stats for a young house hunter:

House Hunter Mimic, Young
Large Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 10d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Tongue +X melee (2d6+X) and 2 tentacles +X melee (2d6+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: adhesive, crush
Special Qualities: darkvision 60 ft, mimic shape, resistance to cold X and fire X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 3, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 4

Environment: Any land
Organization: 1-4
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X

_This looks like a building._

A young house hunter is 10 feet tall, and weighs (many) pounds.

A young house hunter does not speak.

COMBAT

Originally found in Dungeon Magazine and MCA1.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 20, 2004)

releasethedogs said:
			
		

> personally ... i'm glad you struck it down, the cast shadow ability. i just got done creating a undead that has a VERY similar ability. i was all jazzed, and i was like *yeah! this new monster is so original. and i was all proud* then i read that and i was like Nooooooooooo. hehe
> 
> i dont have a name for the monster yet but they are created when people die during an eclipse and certin other conditions are met. yay for undead. saw the new dawn of the dead the other day ... good except ZOMBIES CANT RUN. yeah iam rambling ... sorry.




i've heard the theory that there are no original ideas.  

return of the living dead - kind of cheesy, but scary at times.  not only do zombies run in that one, but they talk, and they just keep coming.

anyway, stick around for our house hunter discussion if you like.


----------



## Shade (Apr 20, 2004)

Here's the Dungeon Magazine version:

House Hunters
FREQUENCY:  Rare
No.Appearing:  4-14
ARMOR CLASS:  0 (shell), 6 (tentacles and tongue)
MOVE:  3 (Young), 2 (Adult), 1 (Ancient)
Hit Dice:  10-14 (Young), 15-19 (Adult), 20-29 (Ancient)
TREASURE TYPE:  Nil (Young), J,K,L,M (Adult), J,K,L,M,N,Q (allx10); S (Ancient)
NO. OF ATTACKS:  3 (Young), 3 (Adult), 3-6 (Ancient)
DAMAGE/ATTACK:  2-12 (Young), 3-18 (Adult), 4-24 (Ancient)
SPECIAL ATTACKS:  Mimicry, glue on tongues and tentacles allowing continuous damage, can cause extreme damage, ancient ones may have 4+ attacks per round
SPECIAL DEFENSES:  Camouflage, low armor class, resistance to heat and cold
MAGIC RESISTANCE:  Standard
INTELLIGENCE:  Semi- to Average
ALIGNMENT:  Neutral
SIZE:  Large (Young), Huge (Adult), Gargantuan (Ancient)

House hunters are large relatives of mimics.  They have lost some of the latter's camouflage versatility but have gained the ability to live aboveground.  They form hard shells that look like stone, wood, or thatch.  Bony plates cover the shell openenings for their mouths and tongues (one tongue each; 2' of length per hit die), huge tentacles (two tentacles each; 1' of length per hit die), and eye stalks (two each; 6" of length per hit die).  These bony plates resemble doors and shutters, and are opened and closed by strong muscles resembling those of clams.  These plates may be forced open by making normal open-doors rolls.

There is a wide variation in the location of these openings.  Some of these creatures have mouths and eyes at their fronts but their tentacles at the left and right sides.  Ancient house hunters are likely to have extra limbs, with tentacles on multiple sides.

A house hunter attacks by extruding its tongue and limbs, wrapping the appendages around nearby victims, one appendage per victim.  Each appendage makes a to-hit roll at a victim (at -2 if it is striking blindly on that side.)  A successful hit means the appendage has caught a victim and can constrict it for the given amounts of damage per round.  The house hunter's tongues and tentacles are coated with musty-smelling adhesive slime; a successful strength check on 1d20 is needed to break away from an appendage's grip.  A victim may either attack the appendage or attempt to pull free of it in a round, but cannot do both at once.

An unresisting opponent is assumed to be dead and dropped after five additional rounds of constriction.  Once all opponents have been dealt with, the bodies are picked up by the house hunter's tongue and pulled into its mouth at a rate of one per round.  Anyone "playing possum" takes constriction damage one last time, but has one last chance to pull free in that round before being dragged inside.  Once inside the creature's mouth, only small, hand-held, stabbing weapons the size of a short sword or smaller may be used to attack (vs. AC 10).  If any damage is inflicted, the house hunter uses its tongue to pull the victim out of its shell and constricts until the victim ceases to resist for five rounds, the victim escapes, or the house hunter dies.  Bodies are fully digested (and unrecoverable) after 1-4 turns.

It should be noted that the tongue, eye stalks, and tentacles are actually pseudopods.  If one is amputated, the house hunter forms a replacement in 1-4 rounds, and all damage done to an appendage is taken from the total hit points of the creature.

The underside of the creature has no armor; it's a slippery foot resembling the foot of a snail, though it is not especially adhesive.  When the creature is moving, the outer shell raises slightly to allow movement over open ground, debris, etc.

House hunters aren't damage by sunlight but don't like to expose their flesh and eyes to it.  For this reason, they prefer to move by nihgt and always delay their attacks until night if possible.  If they are forced to fight by day, all attacks are at -2 to hit.  Their shells are thick enough to reduce fire-, heat-, and cold-based damage by 1 hp per hit die of damage.  If damaged below 10 hp, a house hunter pulls in all appendages, shuts all of its openings, and tries to move away from its attackers.

House hunters are pack animals; they cooperate to capture their prey.  They have good hearing and can sense the vibration of footsteps out to 120 yards.  They are intelligent enough to delay attacking until they can reap the maximum reward.  For example, they won't attack a single scout if there is a large party approaching.  It is guessed that they communicate among themselves by telepathy, to a range of up to 10 miles.

Young house hunters look like small buildings such as outhouses and sheds.  They rarely attack until the adults have taken the initiative.  Adults are the size of cottages and small houses.  Ancient house hunters are larger still, with elaborate shells that can resemble inns, temples, or ruined towers.  The reproduction of such creatures is a mystery, though an adult has been seen digging a large hole in the earth with its foot, then depositing its single live young in the hole.  The young creature made its way out of the hole, then followed its "mother".  Shells apparently grow in size with their owners, and can be shaped over long periods of time to resemble particular buildings that the house hunters have seen.

All three sizes of this monster can produce dim flickering light (bioluminescence resembling candle or lantern light) at any body opening and can imitate domestic noises (muffled voices, clucking hens, the tolling fo a temple bell, etc.).  Adults and ancients can talk, but only speak a crude form of the common tongue.  They will not negotiate for food. 

Treasure is usually found inside the shell, either in the creature's stomach or embedded in the shell wall.  Such treasure consists o fthe indigestible remains of the monster's victims, including coins, gems, and similar small items.  Treasure may be encysted in layers of shell, like pearls, but these lumps have no jewel value.  Occasionally, a magical item or rare antique may be found.  A cursed item is especially likely, since anyone carrying a really powerful item could fight off a house hunter.  Assume that adult house hunters each have a 5% change to contain a magical item; ancient ones have a 10% chance.

If cleaned out thoroughly, a house hunter's shell can be converted into a crude dwelling. 

"The Vanishing Village" by Marcus L. Rowland, Dungeon Magazine #19, September/October 1989, p.16.


----------



## releasethedogs (Apr 20, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> i've heard the theory that there are no original ideas.
> 
> return of the living dead - kind of cheesy, but scary at times. not only do zombies run in that one, but they talk, and they just keep coming.
> 
> anyway, stick around for our house hunter discussion if you like.



true that, ohhh yeah ROTLD, good movie. i did not mind the zombies runing and talking and chewing bubble gum in that movie because it was ment as more of a horror comedy. the new dawn of the dead was ment to be serious and i just can take marathon zombies serious. 

as for the house hunter's i think i remember them, did the picture have a house hunter that looked like a door with some one about to go threw the "door" which was really the house hunter mouth?


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## BOZ (Apr 21, 2004)

that's the one, yep.


----------



## Shade (Apr 21, 2004)

Since they are relatives of the mimics, we can probably mine the mimic entry for many ideas.

Mimic ability scores:  Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 10

Since a young house hunter seems generally bigger than a mimic (although still size Large), I'd recommend a slightly higher Str and Con, but slightly lower Dex.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 21, 2004)

OK then, something along the lines of…

Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 10


----------



## Shade (Apr 21, 2004)

Excellent!


----------



## Shade (Apr 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> House hunters are large relatives of mimics. They have lost some of the latter's camouflage versatility but have gained the ability to live aboveground. They form hard shells that look like stone, wood, or thatch. Bony plates cover the shell openenings for their mouths and tongues (one tongue each; 2' of length per hit die), huge tentacles (two tentacles each; 1' of length per hit die), and eye stalks (two each; 6" of length per hit die). These bony plates resemble doors and shutters, and are opened and closed by strong muscles resembling those of clams. These plates may be forced open by making normal open-doors rolls.



Mostly flavor text.   Strength check for forcing open plates?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> There is a wide variation in the location of these openings. Some of these creatures have mouths and eyes at their fronts but their tentacles at the left and right sides. Ancient house hunters are likely to have extra limbs, with tentacles on multiple sides.



Flavor text?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> A house hunter attacks by extruding its tongue and limbs, wrapping the appendages around nearby victims, one appendage per victim. Each appendage makes a to-hit roll at a victim (at -2 if it is striking blindly on that side.) A successful hit means the appendage has caught a victim and can constrict it for the given amounts of damage per round. The house hunter's tongues and tentacles are coated with musty-smelling adhesive slime; a successful strength check on 1d20 is needed to break away from an appendage's grip. A victim may either attack the appendage or attempt to pull free of it in a round, but cannot do both at once.



Borrowed from the mimic:

Adhesive (Ex): A house hunter exudes a thick slime that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that touch it. An adhesive-covered house hunter automatically grapples any creature it hits with its slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the house hunter is alive without removing the adhesive first.

A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated house hunter is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC X Reflex save. A successful DC X Strength check is needed to pry it off.

Strong alcohol dissolves the adhesive, but the house hunter still can grapple normally. A house hunter can dissolve its adhesive at will, and the substance breaks down 5 rounds after the creature dies.

Crush (Ex): A house hunter deals X+X points of damage with a successful grapple check.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> An unresisting opponent is assumed to be dead and dropped after five additional rounds of constriction. Once all opponents have been dealt with, the bodies are picked up by the house hunter's tongue and pulled into its mouth at a rate of one per round. Anyone "playing possum" takes constriction damage one last time, but has one last chance to pull free in that round before being dragged inside. Once inside the creature's mouth, only small, hand-held, stabbing weapons the size of a short sword or smaller may be used to attack (vs. AC 10). If any damage is inflicted, the house hunter uses its tongue to pull the victim out of its shell and constricts until the victim ceases to resist for five rounds, the victim escapes, or the house hunter dies. Bodies are fully digested (and unrecoverable) after 1-4 turns.



Swallow whole?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It should be noted that the tongue, eye stalks, and tentacles are actually pseudopods. If one is amputated, the house hunter forms a replacement in 1-4 rounds, and all damage done to an appendage is taken from the total hit points of the creature.



Regeneration?  Or just state that it regrows lost pseudopods in 1d4 rounds?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The underside of the creature has no armor; it's a slippery foot resembling the foot of a snail, though it is not especially adhesive. When the creature is moving, the outer shell raises slightly to allow movement over open ground, debris, etc.



Flavor text?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> House hunters aren't damage by sunlight but don't like to expose their flesh and eyes to it. For this reason, they prefer to move by nihgt and always delay their attacks until night if possible. If they are forced to fight by day, all attacks are at -2 to hit. Their shells are thick enough to reduce fire-, heat-, and cold-based damage by 1 hp per hit die of damage. If damaged below 10 hp, a house hunter pulls in all appendages, shuts all of its openings, and tries to move away from its attackers.



Light Sensitivity (Ex): House hunters are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a _daylight_ spell.

Resistance to cold 5 and fire 5?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> House hunters are pack animals; they cooperate to capture their prey. They have good hearing and can sense the vibration of footsteps out to 120 yards. They are intelligent enough to delay attacking until they can reap the maximum reward. For example, they won't attack a single scout if there is a large party approaching. It is guessed that they communicate among themselves by telepathy, to a range of up to 10 miles.



Tremorsense 360 ft.?

Mention in languages line that house hunters communicate telepathically among themselves?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Young house hunters look like small buildings such as outhouses and sheds. They rarely attack until the adults have taken the initiative. Adults are the size of cottages and small houses. Ancient house hunters are larger still, with elaborate shells that can resemble inns, temples, or ruined towers. The reproduction of such creatures is a mystery, though an adult has been seen digging a large hole in the earth with its foot, then depositing its single live young in the hole. The young creature made its way out of the hole, then followed its "mother". Shells apparently grow in size with their owners, and can be shaped over long periods of time to resemble particular buildings that the house hunters have seen.



Flavor text?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> All three sizes of this monster can produce dim flickering light (bioluminescence resembling candle or lantern light) at any body opening and can imitate domestic noises (muffled voices, clucking hens, the tolling fo a temple bell, etc.). Adults and ancients can talk, but only speak a crude form of the common tongue. They will not negotiate for food.



Bioluminescence (Su):  A house hunter can produce light equivalent to a candle at any body opening.

Sound Imitation (Ex): A house hunter can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, anytime it likes. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC X) to detect the ruse.

Add to language line:  Adult and ancient house hunters speak a crude form of Common.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Treasure is usually found inside the shell, either in the creature's stomach or embedded in the shell wall. Such treasure consists o fthe indigestible remains of the monster's victims, including coins, gems, and similar small items. Treasure may be encysted in layers of shell, like pearls, but these lumps have no jewel value. Occasionally, a magical item or rare antique may be found. A cursed item is especially likely, since anyone carrying a really powerful item could fight off a house hunter. Assume that adult house hunters each have a 5% change to contain a magical item; ancient ones have a 10% chance.



Treasure:  Standard coins; standard goods; 50% items?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> If cleaned out thoroughly, a house hunter's shell can be converted into a crude dwelling.



Flavor text?


----------



## BOZ (Apr 29, 2004)

That’s a lot, but I promise to respond in the not-too-distant future.


----------



## Shade (May 3, 2004)

The future is now.   (Just kidding!   )


----------



## BOZ (May 10, 2004)

Worked up the stat block a bit:
*House Hunter Mimic, Young*
Large Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +11 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+17
Attack: tentacle?
Full Attack: Tongue +12 melee (2d6+6) and 2 tentacles +7 melee (2d6+3)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: adhesive, crush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: bioluminescence, darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity, mimic shape, resistance to cold 5 and fire 5, sound imitation, tremorsense 360 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: 13
Feats: 4

Environment: Any land
Organization: Pack (1-4 young, 1-6 adult, and 1-4 ancient house hunters)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X

Then used it to come up with something for the other two:

*House Hunter Mimic, Adult*
Huge Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 15d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-2 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Tongue +X melee (3d6+X) and 2 tentacles +X melee (3d6+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: adhesive, crush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: bioluminescence, darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity, mimic shape, resistance to cold 5 and fire 5, sound imitation, tremorsense 360 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 7, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 5

Environment: Any land
Organization: Pack (1-4 young, 1-6 adult, and 1-4 ancient house hunters)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard coins; standard goods; 50% items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


*House Hunter Mimic, Ancient*
Gargantuan Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 20d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: Tongue +X melee (4d6+X) and 2-4 tentacles +X melee (4d6+X)
Space/Reach: X ft/X ft
Special Attacks: adhesive, crush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: bioluminescence, darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity, mimic shape, resistance to cold 5 and fire 5, sound imitation, tremorsense 360 ft
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 10, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 6

Environment: Any land
Organization: Pack (1-4 young, 1-6 adult, and 1-4 ancient house hunters)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double coins; double goods; 50% items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: +X


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2004)

Since the mimic has a LA of "-", I'd suggest we do likewise for the house hunters.

For advancement, do we want to treat the different versions as "age categories", and thus limit advancement only up to the next type's HD?   Thus...

Young 11-14 HD (Large)
Adult 16-19 HD (Huge)
Ancient 21-40 HD (Gargantuan); 41-60 HD (Colossal)

...or do we want to follow the standard mimic and have each advance up to 3 times its HD, like so...

Young 11-20 HD (Large); 21-30 HD (Huge)
Adult 16-30 HD (Huge); 31-45 HD (Gargantuan) 
Ancient 21-40 HD (Gargantuan); 41-60 HD (Colossal)


----------



## BOZ (May 10, 2004)

for advancement, i'll take the first option.


----------



## Shade (May 10, 2004)

Cool.  That's what I was hoping you'd say.   

Any thoughts on the special abilities I detailed a few posts back?


----------



## BOZ (Jun 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I promise to respond in the not-too-distant future.




is this too distant?  


some thoughts, as I was looking back over things…

for ability scores, we could always go the easy route on advancement:
Young: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 10
Young: Str 31, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 7, Wis ?, Cha ?
Young: Str 39, Dex 8, Con 29, Int 10, Wis ?, Cha ?

However, I don’t think I want the Dex to suffer– I’m thinking that maybe, like dragons, they can keep a static Dex no matter how big they get.  Sound OK?


“They have good hearing and can sense the vibration of footsteps out to 120 yards.”

besides tremorsense, also Listen bonus? 




			
				 Shade said:
			
		

> “It should be noted that the tongue, eye stalks, and tentacles are actually pseudopods. If one is amputated, the house hunter forms a replacement in 1-4 rounds, and all damage done to an appendage is taken from the total hit points of the creature.”
> 
> Regeneration? Or just state that it regrows lost pseudopods in 1d4 rounds?




How about, something like:
An opponent can make sunder attempts against a house hunter’s tentacles or tongue as if they were weapons. A house hunter’s tentacles have (X) hit points, and its tongue has (X) hit points. If a house hunter is currently grappling a target with one tentacle or its tongue, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a house hunter’s tentacle or tongue deals damage to the creature equal to half the limb’s full normal hit points.  A house hunter usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) (tentacles) or (X) (tongue).  A house hunter regrows severed limbs in 1d4 rounds.


More to come, hopefully today…


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> is this too distant?



Why, I remember back in my younger days when we were still converting things to _third_ edition D&D.   I still remember those times fondly.  Things just haven't been the same since new version 8.0 came out, what with its "cinematic pulp manga wetware metatheologic feel".   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> some thoughts, as I was looking back over things…
> 
> for ability scores, we could always go the easy route on advancement:
> Young: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 10
> ...



Looks good, and yes to "static Dex" (isn't that a band?).



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “They have good hearing and can sense the vibration of footsteps out to 120 yards.”
> 
> besides tremorsense, also Listen bonus?



_Sounds_ good to me.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> How about, something like:
> An opponent can make sunder attempts against a house hunter’s tentacles or tongue as if they were weapons. A house hunter’s tentacles have (X) hit points, and its tongue has (X) hit points. If a house hunter is currently grappling a target with one tentacle or its tongue, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a house hunter’s tentacle or tongue deals damage to the creature equal to half the limb’s full normal hit points. A house hunter usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) (tentacles) or (X) (tongue). A house hunter regrows severed limbs in 1d4 rounds.



Excellent! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> More to come, hopefully today…



By "today", do you mean it in a broader sense, like "the world of today is much different than the world of yesterday", or really truly this day?


----------



## BOZ (Jun 8, 2004)

Your smartass quotient really goes up when I’m gone for too long.    hehehh…

So the physical ability score adjustments look good – how, if at all, do you think Wis and Cha should change as the creature grows older?

Listen bonus… +4?

Glad you like the severing thing.    it’s a quality I found awhile back, and it works well for parts that can be severed…  ideas on HP for the tentacles and tongue, or should they increase with age and we’ll just figure that out later?



> By "today", do you mean it in a broader sense, like "the world of today is much different than the world of yesterday", or really truly this day?




“In The World of Tomorrow, We Will Have Flying Cars!”


about the tongue and tentacles:
“one tongue each; 2' of length per hit die”  so… 20’ for young, 30’ for adult, 40’ for ancient?
“two tentacles each; 1' of length per hit die” so… half the above?
And how do these affect reach?  The Space as standard should be 10/15/20 respectively?


Descriptive text:

Young:
_This looks like a small wooden shed.  Dim, flickering candlelight radiates out from a nearby window, and you can hear muffled voices and laughter coming from within._

Adult:
_This looks like a nice wooden and stone cottage.  Dim, flickering candlelight radiates out from a nearby window, and you can hear muffled voices and laughter coming from within._

Ancient:
_This looks like a tall stone tower.  Dim, flickering candlelight radiates out from a nearby window, and you can hear muffled voices and laughter coming from within._


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Your smartass quotient really goes up when I’m gone for too long.  hehehh…



I recently read a Manual of Quickness of Sarcasm.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> So the physical ability score adjustments look good – how, if at all, do you think Wis and Cha should change as the creature grows older?



Yeah, that's what I meant.  As for the mental stats, how about increasing Wis and Cha by 2 (or even 4) at each age category?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Listen bonus… +4?



Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Glad you like the severing thing.  it’s a quality I found awhile back, and it works well for parts that can be severed… ideas on HP for the tentacles and tongue, or should they increase with age and we’ll just figure that out later?



They should increase with age (or more appropriately, size), so we can figure it out later.  I generally look at the kraken and squids for comparable sizes, and work from there.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “In The World of Tomorrow, We Will Have Flying Cars!”



"In the year 2000..."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> about the tongue and tentacles:
> “one tongue each; 2' of length per hit die” so… 20’ for young, 30’ for adult, 40’ for ancient?
> “two tentacles each; 1' of length per hit die” so… half the above?
> And how do these affect reach? The Space as standard should be 10/15/20 respectively?



Giant squid gets double normal reach for tentacles, while kraken gets four times (!!!!) its normal reach with tentacles, and double normal reach with its tongue.   So maybe something like:

10/10 (20 with tongue)
15/15 (30 with tongue)
20/20 (40 with tongue)




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Descriptive text:
> 
> Young:
> _This looks like a small wooden shed. Dim, flickering candlelight radiates out from a nearby window, and you can hear muffled voices and laughter coming from within._
> ...



Excellent!


----------



## BOZ (Jun 8, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, that's what I meant. As for the mental stats, how about increasing Wis and Cha by 2 (or even 4) at each age category?




how about Wis by +2 and Cha by +4 – that seems to work.    so, (fixing the labels), we have:

Young: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 10
Adult: Str 31, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 14
Ancient: Str 39, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 18

Are the mental stats too high?




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Giant squid gets double normal reach for tentacles, while kraken gets four times (!!!!) its normal reach with tentacles, and double normal reach with its tongue.




so, normal reach for the tentacles, and extended reach for the tongue.  Sounds kosher!  (do you notice how it oddly works out that the space and reach equals HD and therefore, the tongue is double that?)


One question – each house hunter has a blind side(s) where the eyes are not.  Is there an applicable rule for this, or was this aspect eliminated when the facing rules were changed?


the rest of the text for each:

The house hunter is a larger relative of the more common mimic.  This creature lacks the versatility of form of its lesser cousin, but makes up for this with a greater array of powers.  These creatures live aboveground, unlike mimics, and have learned to take the form of man-made buildings and structures.

A house hunter forms a shell around it that looks like stone, wood, thatch, and other commonly used building materials to heighten its disguise.  House hunters form their shells to resemble particular buildings that they have seen while traveling, and the shell can grow and change in size and shape as the house hunter grows.  Young house hunters often choose forms such as sheds or outhouses, while adults tend to take the forms of houses, and ancient ones have the ability to resemble much larger and more elaborate structures such as inns, temples, and ruined towers.  If the house hunter’s shell is cleaned out thoroughly, it can be converted into a crude dwelling.  The creature’s treasure is usually found inside its stomach, or imbedded in the shell wall, and consists of the indigestible remains of victims.

Doors and shutters are created to cover openings in the shell, to protect and hide the mouth, long eyestalks, and huge tentacles.  These apertures are opened and shut by strong muscles like those of clams.  The mouth, eyes, and tentacles can be on any location on the body, and on any side.  This monster is able to produce a bioluminescence at any body opening, to give the illusion of candles or lanterns inside the structure.  The unarmored underside of a house hunter has a large, slippery foot-like organ like that of a snail, which allows the creature to move around.  

House hunters form packs made up of several individuals of varying ages.  Thus, a pack of house hunters can look very much like an odd little village (with no people).  House hunters dislike sunlight greatly, and lock up their openings tightly during the day to keep their eyes from exposure.  A successful Strength check can force open any of the protective bony plates.  A house hunter will likewise close up and try to flee if opponents bring it close to death.  Unless fleeing attackers, a house hunter usually only moves around at night.

Adult and ancient house hunters speak a crude form of Common.  House hunters are able to communicate telepathically amongst themselves, up to a range of 10 miles.  A house hunter will not negotiate for food, and will use unintelligible speech, animal noises, and domestic sounds like bells and chimes to lure prey in.

COMBAT
House hunters cooperate as a pack to capture prey.  Their powerful senses and keen intelligence allows them to anticipate the right time to strike to reap maximum reward.  The adults usually strike first, with the others following their lead.

A house hunter will attack by extruding its pseudopod appendages and wrapping each one around a nearby victim.  The long tongues and even longer tentacles are coated with a musty-smelling slime that adds a strong adhesive to the grip.  If a grabbed opponent does not resist for five full rounds, the house hunter assumes it to be dead and drops it.  Once all opponents have stopped moving, the house hunter will begin picking them up on at a time with a tongue attack, to swallow them.  If any swallowed creature successfully attacks a house hunter, the house hunter will extract the creature with its tongue, and crush the creature until it ceases to resist for five more rounds.

An opponent can make sunder attempts against a house hunter’s tentacles or tongue as if they were weapons. A house hunter’s tentacles have (X) hit points, and its tongue has (X) hit points. If a house hunter is currently grappling a target with one tentacle or its tongue, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a house hunter’s tentacle or tongue deals damage to the creature equal to half the limb’s full normal hit points.  A house hunter usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) (tentacles) or (X) (tongue).  A house hunter regrows severed limbs in 1d4 rounds.

Adhesive (Ex): A house hunter exudes a thick slime that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that touch it. An adhesive-covered house hunter automatically grapples any creature it hits with its slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the house hunter is alive without removing the adhesive first.

A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated house hunter is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC X Reflex save. A successful DC X Strength check is needed to pry it off.

Strong alcohol dissolves the adhesive, but the house hunter still can grapple normally. A house hunter can dissolve its adhesive at will, and the substance breaks down 5 rounds after the creature dies.

Crush (Ex): A house hunter deals X+X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A house hunter can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of (X) or smaller size by making a successful grapple check.  The swallowed creature takes X points of crushing damage plus X points of acid damage per round from the house hunter’s gizzard.  A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the (X)’s gut (AC X).  Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

Bioluminescence (Su): A house hunter can produce light equivalent to a candle at any body opening.

Light Sensitivity (Ex): House hunters are dazzled in bright sunlight or within the radius of a daylight spell.

Sound Imitation (Ex): A house hunter can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, as a free action. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC X) to detect the ruse.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Skills: A house hunter has a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks.

Originally found in Dungeon Magazine #19 ("The Vanishing Village," September/October 1989, Marcus L. Rowland) and Monstrous Compendium Annual One (1994).


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> how about Wis by +2 and Cha by +4 – that seems to work.  so, (fixing the labels), we have:
> 
> Young: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 10
> Adult: Str 31, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 14
> ...



I think those stat blocks should work.  I don't think the stats are too high. In fact, Intelligence may be too low.  A standard mimic has an Int of 10.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so, normal reach for the tentacles, and extended reach for the tongue. Sounds kosher! (do you notice how it oddly works out that the space and reach equals HD and therefore, the tongue is double that?)



I noticed that too, and though it was quite interesting. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> One question – each house hunter has a blind side(s) where the eyes are not. Is there an applicable rule for this, or was this aspect eliminated when the facing rules were changed?



Yeah, no facing in 3E/3.5 (unless you count flanking).  So the only implication I could see this having is if it were normally immune to flanking for its type or abilities, we'd need to mention that it could be flanked.  But I don't think this is the case.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Adhesive (Ex): A house hunter exudes a thick slime that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that touch it. An adhesive-covered house hunter automatically grapples any creature it hits with its slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the house hunter is alive without removing the adhesive first.
> 
> A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated house hunter is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC X Reflex save. A successful DC X Strength check is needed to pry it off.



Do we want to stick with DC 16 like the mimic?  Or do we assume that the mimic's DCs were Con-based (DC 10 + 1/2 of 3 HD + 3 for Con 17 = 16) and adjust the house hunters likewise?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Crush (Ex): A house hunter deals X+X points of damage with a successful grapple check.



Crush should equal slam damage if we go by the mimic.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Swallow Whole (Ex): A house hunter can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of (X) or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes X points of crushing damage plus X points of acid damage per round from the house hunter’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the (X)’s gut (AC X). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.



This should differ based on size.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 8, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I think those stat blocks should work. I don't think the stats are too high. In fact, Intelligence may be too low. A standard mimic has an Int of 10.




I don’t consider these “superior” mimics – just bigger ones.    nothing wrong with being mentally inferior to the ones with better shapeshifting powers…



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Yeah, no facing in 3E/3.5 (unless you count flanking). So the only implication I could see this having is if it were normally immune to flanking for its type or abilities, we'd need to mention that it could be flanked. But I don't think this is the case.




right.  In fact, the description leads one to believe that sneaking up behind them is more than possible.  Those eyestalks are long, but they are not long enough to reach all the way around the mimic.

As for the rest of your comments, yes all of that should vary based on the creature’s size and abilities.


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t consider these “superior” mimics – just bigger ones.  nothing wrong with being mentally inferior to the ones with better shapeshifting powers…



Yep.  Nothing wrong with that.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> right. In fact, the description leads one to believe that sneaking up behind them is more than possible. Those eyestalks are long, but they are not long enough to reach all the way around the mimic.



Indeed.  Perhaps we could give them a penalty to Spot checks to account for this?


----------



## BOZ (Jun 8, 2004)

i don't see why.

Here are some updated stat blocks to work with.

I realize I probably need to come up with a description for Mimic Shape.  

Also, should tentacle be the Attack line?  I don’t think tongue would be used as much.


*House Hunter Mimic, Young*
Large Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 10d8+50 (95 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +11 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+17
Attack: tentacle?
Full Attack: Tongue +12 melee (2d6+6) and 2 tentacles +7 melee (2d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft/10 ft (20 ft with tongue)
Special Attacks: adhesive, crush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: bioluminescence, darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity, mimic shape, resistance to cold 5 and fire 5, sound imitation, tremorsense 360 ft
Saves: Fort +8 Ref +3 Will +8
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 10
Skills: 13
Feats: 4

Environment: Any land
Organization: Pack (1-4 young, 1-6 adult, and 1-4 ancient house hunters)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-14 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: ---

A young house hunter is 10 feet tall, and weighs (many) pounds.


*House Hunter Mimic, Adult*
Huge Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 15d8+105 (172 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-2 size, +12 natural), touch 8, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +11/+29
Attack: X
Full Attack: Tongue +19 melee (3d6+10) and 2 tentacles +14 melee (3d6+5)
Space/Reach: 15 ft/15 ft (30 ft with tongue)
Special Attacks: adhesive, crush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: bioluminescence, darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity, mimic shape, resistance to cold 5 and fire 5, sound imitation, tremorsense 360 ft
Saves: Fort +12 Ref +5 Will +11
Abilities: Str 31, Dex 10, Con 25, Int 7, Wis 15, Cha 14
Skills: 18
Feats: 6

Environment: Any land
Organization: Pack (1-4 young, 1-6 adult, and 1-4 ancient house hunters)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Standard coins; standard goods; 50% items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 16-19 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: ---

An adult house hunter is 15-20 feet tall, and weighs (many) pounds.


*House Hunter Mimic, Ancient*
Gargantuan Aberration (Shapechanger)
Hit Dice: 20d8+180 (270 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 10 ft (2 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-4 size, +14 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 20
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+41
Attack: X
Full Attack: Tongue +25 melee (4d6+14) and 2-4 tentacles +20 melee (4d6+7)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft (40 ft with tongue)
Special Attacks: adhesive, crush, swallow whole
Special Qualities: bioluminescence, darkvision 60 ft, light sensitivity, mimic shape, resistance to cold 5 and fire 5, sound imitation, tremorsense 360 ft
Saves: Fort +15 Ref +6 Will +15
Abilities: Str 39, Dex 10, Con 29, Int 10, Wis 17, Cha 18
Skills: 46
Feats: 7

Environment: Any land
Organization: Pack (1-4 young, 1-6 adult, and 1-4 ancient house hunters)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: Double coins; double goods; 50% items
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 21-40 HD (Gargantuan); 41-60 HD (Colossal)
Level Adjustment: ---

An ancient house hunter is 30-40 feet tall, and weighs (many) pounds.


----------



## Shade (Jun 8, 2004)

I just reread the description, and it sounds like the tongue is the primary attack.

Here are the mimic's skills and feats:
Skills: Climb +9, Disguise +13, Listen +8, Spot +8
Feats: Alertness, Lightning Reflexes, Weapon Focus (slam)

I'd suggest we stick with these core skills and at least Alertness from the feat list.  Lightning Reflexes wouldn't hurt either, to help cover one of its weak areas.  Skill Focus (Disguise) would be another good candidate.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 9, 2004)

Ok, I went ahead and put the tongue on the Attack line, though I still think tentacles are more easily utilized for that.

How’s this?  How does the sentence in parenthesis look – I thought it needed a limitation.

Mimic Shape (Ex): A house hunter mimic can assume the general shape of a construction that fills roughly (X) cubic feet.  (The house hunter can only change its form once every 48 hours, and it takes a full 24 hours to settle into a new form.)  The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though.  A house hunter’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present.  Anyone who examines the house hunter can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the house hunter’s opposed Disguise check.  Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.

Skills: A house hunter has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks.


Question – from the text, does it seem that a house hunter has adhesive anywhere other than its tongue and tentacles?

For your skill selections, I think those will work OK with the two younger types, but the ancient ones have far more skills than the others, so they might need an extra skill or 2.

For feats, how aboot:
Alertness, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Disguise), Weapon Focus (tongue)
Adult adds: Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative
Ancient adds: Iron Will


----------



## BOZ (Jun 9, 2004)

Also…

Been looking at the old description, and it seems to me that only the grappling appendages (tongue and tentacles) have adhesive.  Would it be enough to rewrite the adhesive description to remove references to things getting stuck to the house hunter itself?  And does that change anything about the grapple?


Here are all the combat sections with variables, and some input on what we should add to them:

An opponent can make sunder attempts against a house hunter’s tentacles or tongue as if they were weapons. A house hunter’s tentacles have (X) hit points, and its tongue has (X) hit points. If a house hunter is currently grappling a target with one tentacle or its tongue, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the sunder attempt. Severing a house hunter’s tentacle or tongue deals damage to the creature equal to half the limb’s full normal hit points.  A house hunter usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) (tentacles) or (X) (tongue).  A house hunter regrows severed limbs in 1d4 rounds.

(hp for tentacle/tongue – Y-5/10, Ad-10/20, An-15/30 – I’d say the tongue is much bigger, stronger, and tougher than the tentacles)
(withdraw – if it loses two appendages? Or maybe if it loses the tongue or both tentacles?)

Crush (Ex): A house hunter deals X+X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

(like the mimic, probably just repeated damage with the crushing member.  Did we rule that both the tongue and tentacles crush?  If so, we should probably list both damages as “X points of damage with its tongue or X points of damage with a tentacle” or something like that)

Swallow Whole (Ex): A house hunter can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of (X) or smaller size by making a successful grapple check.  The swallowed creature takes X points of crushing damage plus X points of acid damage per round from the house hunter’s gizzard.  A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal X points of damage to the house hunter’s gut (AC X).  Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

(for comparison – behir, tyrannosaurus, dire shark, nightcrawler nightshade, purple worm, remorhaz, Tarrasque, tendriculous)
(size – is it necessary to list the size if it is the next category smaller?)
(crush – Y-2d6+6, Ad-2d8+10, An-2d8+14 - usually 2d6 or 2d8 with a + maybe Str bonus?)
(acid – Y-1d8+X, Ad-2d6+X, An-2d8+X -  varies a lot, sometimes 8 or 12 sometimes a range like 1d8, 2d6, and 2d8 with a + )
(damage to gut – Y-20, Ad-25, An-35 – seems to be based on size – Huge is 25, Gargantuan is 35, Colossal is 50)
(gut’s AC – Y-15, Ad-16, An-17 – is 10 plus ½ natural armor)

Sound Imitation (Ex): A house hunter can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, as a free action. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC X) to detect the ruse.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

(Y-15, Ad-19, An-24)


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Ok, I went ahead and put the tongue on the Attack line, though I still think tentacles are more easily utilized for that.



If its really buggin' you, go ahead and change it.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> How’s this? How does the sentence in parenthesis look – I thought it needed a limitation.
> 
> Mimic Shape (Ex): A house hunter mimic can assume the general shape of a construction that fills roughly (X) cubic feet. (The house hunter can only change its form once every 48 hours, and it takes a full 24 hours to settle into a new form.) The creature cannot substantially alter its size, though. A house hunter’s body is hard and has a rough texture, no matter what appearance it might present. Anyone who examines the house hunter can detect the ruse with a successful Spot check opposed by the house hunter’s opposed Disguise check. Of course, by this time it is generally far too late.



That should work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: A house hunter has a +8 racial bonus on Disguise checks.



But of course.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Question – from the text, does it seem that a house hunter has adhesive anywhere other than its tongue and tentacles?



Nope.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For your skill selections, I think those will work OK with the two younger types, but the ancient ones have far more skills than the others, so they might need an extra skill or 2.



Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Search, or Survival could all work.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For feats, how aboot:
> Alertness, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Disguise), Weapon Focus (tongue)
> Adult adds: Blind-Fight, Improved Initiative
> Ancient adds: Iron Will



I like 'em, except I'd replace Iron Will with Lightning Reflexes, since that is the save most in need of assistance, and follows the mimic more closely.


----------



## Shade (Jun 11, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Been looking at the old description, and it seems to me that only the grappling appendages (tongue and tentacles) have adhesive. Would it be enough to rewrite the adhesive description to remove references to things getting stuck to the house hunter itself? And does that change anything about the grapple?



A rewrite should be fine.  Since the grapple would still be initiated by tongue or tentacle attack, the grapple should remain unchanged. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> (hp for tentacle/tongue – Y-5/10, Ad-10/20, An-15/30 – I’d say the tongue is much bigger, stronger, and tougher than the tentacles)
> (withdraw – if it loses two appendages? Or maybe if it loses the tongue or both tentacles?)



I like the values you listed, and would suggest the latter option for withdraw.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> (like the mimic, probably just repeated damage with the crushing member. Did we rule that both the tongue and tentacles crush? If so, we should probably list both damages as “X points of damage with its tongue or X points of damage with a tentacle” or something like that)



I don't think we made a ruling.  The suggested method of listing both sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> (size – is it necessary to list the size if it is the next category smaller?)
> (crush – Y-2d6+6, Ad-2d8+10, An-2d8+14 - usually 2d6 or 2d8 with a + maybe Str bonus?)
> (acid – Y-1d8+X, Ad-2d6+X, An-2d8+X - varies a lot, sometimes 8 or 12 sometimes a range like 1d8, 2d6, and 2d8 with a + )
> (damage to gut – Y-20, Ad-25, An-35 – seems to be based on size – Huge is 25, Gargantuan is 35, Colossal is 50)
> (gut’s AC – Y-15, Ad-16, An-17 – is 10 plus ½ natural armor)



Either list specific size or just state "at least one size category smaller than itself".

Crush:  I like your values, with Str bonus.

Acid:  I'd just go with 1d8, 2d6, and 2d8 with no "+".

Gut values look good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Sound Imitation (Ex): A house hunter can mimic any voice or sound it has heard, as a free action. Listeners must succeed on a Will save (DC X) to detect the ruse. The save DC is Charisma-based.
> 
> (Y-15, Ad-19, An-24)



Yep, that's straightforward.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> If its really buggin' you, go ahead and change it.




I think I will.    tentacle just makes more sense to me…


Skills:
I don’t imagine they’re going to spend anytime hiding – they want to be seen.    and that would be a big waste of ranks anyway.

How about these set-ups for ranks?

Young
Skills: Climb +2, Disguise +3, Listen +3, Spot +3

Adult
Skills: Climb +2, Disguise +4, Listen +4, Spot +4, Survival +4

Ancient
Skills: Climb +4, Disguise +6, Intimidate +6, Listen +6, Move Silently +6, Search +6, Spot +6, Survival +6




> A rewrite should be fine. Since the grapple would still be initiated by tongue or tentacle attack, the grapple should remain unchanged.




so, how about:

Adhesive (Ex): A house hunter exudes a thick slime from its tongue and tentacles that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that it hits. A house hunter automatically grapples any creature it hits with a tongue or tentacle attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the house hunter is alive without removing the adhesive first.

(A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated house hunter is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC X Reflex save. A successful DC X Strength check is needed to pry it off.)
we could keep an altered version of this paragraph for use with sunder attempts, if that still makes sense.  It may not be necessary though.

Strong alcohol dissolves the adhesive, but the house hunter still can grapple normally. A house hunter can dissolve its adhesive at will, and the substance breaks down 5 rounds after the creature dies.




> I like the values you listed, and would suggest the latter option for withdraw.




actually, looking at it again and thinking about it – does it make sense for the creature to withdraw from combat at all if the appendages grow back in 1d4 rounds?


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I think I will.  tentacle just makes more sense to me…



Cool. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills:
> I don’t imagine they’re going to spend anytime hiding – they want to be seen.  and that would be a big waste of ranks anyway.
> 
> How about these set-ups for ranks?
> ...



Lookin' good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so, how about_:
> 
> Adhesive (Ex): A house hunter exudes a thick slime from its tongue and tentacles that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that it hits. A house hunter automatically grapples any creature it hits with a tongue or tentacle attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the house hunter is alive without removing the adhesive first.
> 
> ...



I think the "weapon stuck" paragraph can be ditched altogether. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> actually, looking at it again and thinking about it – does it make sense for the creature to withdraw from combat at all if the appendages grow back in 1d4 rounds?



Probably not, considering its speed.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2004)

LOL  OK, posted in homebrews.    this is one nice long post…


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2004)

Man, I wish we were getting paid by the word.   

First off, why "house hunter mimic"?   Was "house hunter" too cheesy for you?  Did it remind you of something on TLC or HGTV?   

Suggested CRs:

Young 5
Adult 7
Ancient 9

For mimic shape, the mimic is Large and can assume the general shape of any object that fills roughly 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet).  Using a similar calc based on size, how about...

Young 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet).
Adult 1,100 cubic feet (10 feet by 10 feet by 11 feet).
Ancient 3,600 cubic feet (15 feet by 15 feet by 16 feet).


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Man, I wish we were getting paid by the word.




don’t you know it!  “diarrhea of the word processor” is part of what made Stephen King rich.  



> First off, why "house hunter mimic"? Was "house hunter" too cheesy for you? Did it remind you of something on TLC or HGTV?




heheh.    MC Annual 1 refers to them as “Mimic, House Hunter”.  I decided to keep that reference, but I didn’t want to be clumsy with “Mimic, House Hunter, Young” and the like.  is “House Hunter Mimic” too unwieldy?

Your CR's seem a bit low.  Keep in mind, they have a lot more HP than a typical mimic and a wider range of abilities.  How about:

Young: 6-7
Adult: 10-12
Ancient: 13-15

Or are those too high now?  do we have something to compare to?

I’m fine with your dimension calculations – I wasn’t even going to begin trying that.    now of course, these creatures aren’t (nearly) cubic and therefore skinnier, but who the hell cares your figures are good enough.  

As far as weight, I’d assume they weigh less than an actual building (bony exosekelton filled with muscle), but still do weigh much more than the average person can lift.


----------



## Shade (Jun 14, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> don’t you know it! “diarrhea of the word processor” is part of what made Stephen King rich.



 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> heheh.  MC Annual 1 refers to them as “Mimic, House Hunter”. I decided to keep that reference, but I didn’t want to be clumsy with “Mimic, House Hunter, Young” and the like. is “House Hunter Mimic” too unwieldy?



Your naming convention sounds fine.  When I first saw "house hunters", I thought "deadly realtors".   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Your CR's seem a bit low. Keep in mind, they have a lot more HP than a typical mimic and a wider range of abilities. How about_:
> 
> Young: 6-7
> Adult: 10-12
> ...



That seems high to me.   Basically, I took a standard mimic, and added +1 CR for every 4 HD (since its an aberration), and gave 'em an additional +1 for a few extra abilities.   They aren't really that much better than a standard mimic.

Get us playtesters, stat!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m fine with your dimension calculations – I wasn’t even going to begin trying that.  now of course, these creatures aren’t (nearly) cubic and therefore skinnier, but who the hell cares your figures are good enough.



I just hope my figures allow them to be as big as a house of the appropriate size!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> As far as weight, I’d assume they weigh less than an actual building (bony exosekelton filled with muscle), but still do weigh much more than the average person can lift.



Yeah, they are chitinous goo-bags.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 14, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> That seems high to me. Basically, I took a standard mimic, and added +1 CR for every 4 HD (since its an aberration), and gave 'em an additional +1 for a few extra abilities. They aren't really that much better than a standard mimic.




OK, I see your point and I see what you are looking at (MM p 294).  You forgot the +1 for every size increase over Large.    this would apply to the two older varieties. 

Also, the suggestions on p. 302 for an “Ambusher” type of monster, of which a standard mimic is one type, suggest that the CR should be ½ HD to total HD.

So, I want to go with:

Young: 5
Adult: 8
Ancient: 11



> I just hope my figures allow them to be as big as a house of the appropriate size!




hmm, on second thought maybe we should enquire further?


----------



## Shade (Jun 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> OK, I see your point and I see what you are looking at (MM p 294). You forgot the +1 for every size increase over Large.  this would apply to the two older varieties.



I didn't forget it, I just misunderstood it.      The way it is written is misleading:  

"Size increased to Large or larger = +1 to CR" 

"Generally, increasing a monster’s size increases its combat effectiveness. Large creatures gain increased Strength, reach, and other benefits. Apply this modifier if you increase a creature beyond Medium and in conjunction with any other increases."

I got the impression that increasing from Medium to anything larger entailed a one-time +1 CR adjustment.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Also, the suggestions on p. 302 for an “Ambusher” type of monster, of which a standard mimic is one type, suggest that the CR should be ½ HD to total HD.



Now that is clear as water.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> So, I want to go with:
> 
> Young: 5
> Adult: 8
> Ancient: 11



Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> hmm, on second thought maybe we should enquire further?



Nah, I think we're OK.  1,100 square feet is pretty sweet for a cottage.  And 3,600 is almost double the size of my house.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 15, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I got the impression that increasing from Medium to anything larger entailed a one-time +1 CR adjustment.




I see how you could take it that way, but I think it makes more sense to keep adding it with every change.  The bigger the badder right?  

And OK, we’ll keep your calculations for dimensions if you’re sure about them.  I’m terrible with stuff like that.


----------



## Shade (Jun 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I see how you could take it that way, but I think it makes more sense to keep adding it with every change. The bigger the badder right?



They really, really need to do an improving monsters Sage Advice.   I went to offer a counter-argument, and found that the greater stone golem, cauchemar (nightmare), and truly horrid umber hulk all don't match their suggested improving CR formulas.  Ugh!   

So, go with what you've got.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And OK, we’ll keep your calculations for dimensions if you’re sure about them. I’m terrible with stuff like that.



I think it works.  If not, you'll see a post or get an e-mail eventually.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 16, 2004)

any ideas for weight?  the listed weight maximums are 4000 lbs for Large, 16 tons for Huge, and 125 tons for Gargantuan.  now, that might actually be too much - maybe half that?  another fraction like 2/3?


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2004)

Well, the mimic is listed at 4,500 lbs. at size Large, so it already exceeds the maximum.

I'm having a tough time finding something to compare them to.  They don't list weights for a house, tower, etc.    The heaviest thing I could find was a wagon at a mere 400 lbs.

Here's an idea, based on this passage from the mimic:



> A typical mimic has a volume of 150 cubic feet (5 feet by 5 feet by 6 feet) and weighs about 4,500 pounds.



4,500/150 = 30 lbs. per cubic foot.

Using the previous formulae:

Young 150 cubic feet X 30 = 4,500 pounds
Adult 1,100 cubic feet X 30 = 33,000 pounds
Ancient 3,600 cubic feet X 30 = 108,000 pounds

What do you think?


----------



## BOZ (Jun 17, 2004)

well, I guess that’s just fine if we are only exceeding the “maximums” by a little bit.  How about if we round up a bit and make those tons:

Adult: 17 tons, Ancient: 55 tons

I’m no engineer or mathematician, so that’s just as fine as anything to me.  And as you said before, if someone comes along and sees a problem with it they’ll let me know.


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2004)

Yeah, tons sounds better.


----------



## BOZ (Jun 17, 2004)

updating.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2004)

It seems finished to me...but that is alot of text to cover!


----------



## BOZ (Jun 18, 2004)

i know - that is a bit of a pain.    i'm calling this one "done" for now - print it out and give it a thorough lookover when you have a chance.


----------



## Shade (Jun 21, 2004)

I gave it another look-over, and it still looks good.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 10, 2004)

OK, and here’s another new one!  

This one would go just as well in the OD&D thread, but since there are far fewer Dungeon magazine critters I decided to put it here.  

TYRANNABYSS
Armor Class: 8/6
Hit Dice: 5**
Move: 60' (20') on land /120' (40') swimming
Attacks: 2 claws/1 sting
Damage: 1-4/1-4/1-4 + special
No. App.: 1-4
Save as: Fighter 3
Morale: 9
Treasure: U
Alignment: Neutral
XP Value: 425

The tyrannabyss inhabits coastal waters - especially reefs and rocky shoals – where it prowls the sea floor in search of prey. It can swim rapidly for short distances by undulations of its body. Its circular mouth is lined with rasping teeth. If its prey is hit by both clawed tentacles (1d4 hp damage each), it is drawn up against this orifice for an automatic 1d6 hp damage per round of contact. This mouth can rasp through armor at a rate equal in rounds to the difference between the AC and 10. For example, chain mail (AC 5) requires 5 rounds before actual damage to the victim results, while plate mail (AC 3) requires 7 rounds. If the victim breaks away before it takes any personal injury, damage to the armor still takes place.
Below the mouth of the tyrannabyss is its primary hunting weapon, an elongating tube that can fire a barbed sting to a range of 10'. Its sting paralyzes (saving throw applicable) its prey and the tube is retracted to draw its victim within range of its tentacles. If the saving throw is made, victims with a strength of 15 or better can resist the pulling tube, but take 1 hp damage per round due to the lacerations from the barbed sting. The sting can only be used once; then, 3 turns are required for it to be rearmed.
The tyrannabyss is covered with a thick coat of mucous which allows it to withstand prolonged periods out of water, if it can stay damp. The tyrannabyss has been reported to attach itself to the bottom of boats with its numerous suckers and prey upon the crew above. Its soft back is AC 8, while its under side, tentacles, eyestalks, and sting are AC 6. Blunt weapons do only half dam- age, while edged weapons and fire do full damage. If injured but not slain, the tyrannabyss can regenerate 1 hp per turn in seawater. It has the ability to assume the coloration of its surroundings and its boneless body can squeeze through openings considerably smaller than its body size. It cannot squeeze under doors or through small cracks. If a man can crawl through an opening, so can a tyrannabyss.


Dungeon Magazine #2 - The Keep at Koralgesh (Nov/Dec 86, Robert B. Giacomozzi and
Jonathan H. Simmons)


some preliminary stats for the tyrannabyss:

*Tyrannabyss*
Huge Aberration? Magical Beast? (Aquatic?)
Hit Dice: 5dX+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 20 ft (4 squares), swim 40 ft
Armor Class: 12 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +X/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (1d4+X) and stinger +X melee (1d4+X plus paralysis)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: rend?
Special Qualities: boneless, camouflage, damage reduction X/slashing or piercing, fast healing X
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: X

Environment: aquatic?
Organization: 1-4 (school?)
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: (U)
Alignment: Usually/always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---



COMBAT


I actually wanted to do this one because of a conversion I had found.  It appears in more than one place – actually, it is probably the same conversion, just done a little differently each time:
http://www.planewalker.com/ps3e/monsterDetail.asp?id=13
http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/tyrannabyss.rtf

you’ll notice that the description doesn’t give a size, so I included an illustration from the magazine.  These conversions above suggest a length of 20 feet, which should probably do.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2004)

Although I am loathe to inflict the aberration type upon any creature (because of the crappy BAB and saves), it does seem most appropriate in this case.

Where is the pic of the creature?


----------



## BOZ (Aug 10, 2004)

did i say... something about a picture?


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2004)

Yep, that looks like 20 feet to me.


----------



## BOZ (Aug 10, 2004)

good, i won't have to use my mind-ray on you.


----------



## Shade (Aug 10, 2004)

I should've called myself "Shadow", and then I'd be undead and immune to your mind-affecting effects.  

Should we give it the amphibious trait?

*Amphibious (Ex):* Although tyrannabysses (tyrannabyssii?) are aquatic, they can survive indefinitely on land, as long as they remain damp.

I also think they should speak their own language, Tyrannabyssal.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2004)

and here is the last of the old conversions left to finish.    we had only really just barely started on it, so there isn't much material to refresh on.  

as for amphibious, the description made it sound like a bottom-feeder at first, but then after reading more i found the sentence you were basing that on:  "The tyrannabyss is covered with a thick coat of mucous which allows it to withstand prolonged periods out of water, if it can stay damp."


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 27, 2004)

Is that guy related to the wyste?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 Space/Reach - shouldn't they be 15/15 or 15/10?

 Bebiliths, among others, can Rend Armor:

 Rend Armor (Ex): If a bebilith hits with both claw attacks, it pulls apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals 4d6+18 points of damage to the opponent’s armor. Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.


----------



## Filby (Nov 27, 2004)

I think its connection to the wyste is only superficial, since the wyste is a denizen of the Far Realm while the tyrannabys is, as far as we know, a native inhabitant of the Prime Material Plane.


----------



## Shade (Nov 27, 2004)

Although you've got fast healing listed on the SQ line, I think regeneration is more appropriate.

From the troll/scrag:

*Regeneration (Ex):* Fire and acid deal normal damage to a scrag. If a scrag loses a limb or body part, the lost portion regrows in 3d6 minutes. The creature can reattach the severed member instantly by holding it to the stump.  Scrags regenerate only if mostly immersed in water.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 27, 2004)

I don't see using regeneration for the t. The descriptions sounds much more like fast healing.
 Don't forget the paralysis effect. Also, the stinger should propably also be added to the special attacks line, if it can only be used once every three rounds (we had that discussion recently, but how long did rounds last back then?).


----------



## BOZ (Nov 27, 2004)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Is that guy related to the wyste?




Filby's got your answer.    but it was a good question.  However, given the far removal of the appearances of the two creatures? I doubt the respective designers were thinking of each other.  



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Bebiliths, among others, can Rend Armor:
> 
> Rend Armor (Ex): If a bebilith hits with both claw attacks, it pulls apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals 4d6+18 points of damage to the opponent's armor. Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.




cool, thanks, I didn't even think of that.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Although you've got fast healing listed on the SQ line, I think regeneration is more appropriate.






			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> I don't see using regeneration for the t. The descriptions sounds much more like fast healing.




"If injured but not slain, the tyrannabyss can regenerate 1 hp per turn in seawater."

I'm with the Knight on this one.    though it may need a description, since it only works underwater.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Don't forget the paralysis effect. Also, the stinger should propably also be added to the special attacks line, if it can only be used once every three rounds (we had that discussion recently, but how long did rounds last back then?).




even worse, these are not AD&D rounds, since this was a Basic(?) D&D creature, so I have no idea.  

"The sting can only be used once; then, 3 turns are required for it to be rearmed."

I'll tell you this much though; in AD&D, a "turn" meant 10 rounds.  I don't know how D&D ruled that.  So, if it takes 30 rounds to rearm, then it is only a once-per-combat attack.  

I may start a thread in the D&D Rules forum for some issues we're having with this guy.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 27, 2004)

> Filby's got your answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Propably. But that doesn't prevent them from being related. Think dwarf and azer. 



> I'm with the Knight on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Bit like the mephit:

 Fast Healing (Ex): A water mephit heals only if it is exposed to rain or submerged up to its waist in water.

 Now we only need to know how long a turn was supposed to be.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2004)

Good catch on the mephit. I'm still not convinced fast healing is appropriate, since its healing was far from fast in previous editions (once per 10 minutes!). It is more akin to a ring of regeneration. 

Add my vote to those who don't think it's related to the wyste.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 28, 2004)

"Its circular mouth is lined with rasping teeth. If its prey is hit by both clawed tentacles (1d4 hp damage each), it is drawn up against this orifice for an automatic 1d6 hp damage per round of contact. This mouth can rasp through armor at a rate equal in rounds to the difference between the AC and 10. For example, chain mail (AC 5) requires 5 rounds before actual damage to the victim results, while plate mail (AC 3) requires 7 rounds. If the victim breaks away before it takes any personal injury, damage to the armor still takes place."

Rend Armor (Ex): If a tyrannabyss hits with both claw attacks, it pulls apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals (4d6+18) points of damage to the opponent?s armor. Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.

I think the rend armor attack is close, but not quite on.  For the bebilith, you have a creature ripping apart armor (not damaging the character), but here, you have a sawing mouth that grinds through the armor to get at the character underneath.  Therefore, we probably need an improved grab combo, with the rend armor.  If no armor is worn, or the armor is destroyed, then the character takes the bite damage instead.


As for fast healing, I'm not going to worry about it saying any old stupid 1 hp per turn, and assume that mean a round instead.  

Fast Healing (Ex): A tyrannabyss heals only if it is submerged in seawater.


"Below the mouth of the tyrannabyss is its primary hunting weapon, an elongating tube that can fire a barbed sting to a range of 10'. Its sting paralyzes (saving throw applicable) its prey and the tube is retracted to draw its victim within range of its tentacles. If the saving throw is made, victims with a strength of 15 or better can resist the pulling tube, but take 1 hp damage per round due to the lacerations from the barbed sting. The sting can only be used once; then, 3 turns are required for it to be rearmed."

For the moment, I'm not going to worry about how long it takes to reload.  We can resolve that later.  For starters, I looked at an old 3.0 conversion here on ENworld (done by Southern Oracle, who still posts from time to time): http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/tyrannabyss.rtf and found something that we can hopefully adapt:

SA -- stinger: The stinger can be fired a maximum of 15 feet and has a range increment of 5 feet. It causes 1d4+3 damage and delivers a paralytic poison. The tyrannabyss takes 3 rounds to retract the stinger, allowing an opposed Str check each round to break free. Anyone breaking free suffers an additional 1 damage from the barb tearing free. When completely reeled in, a victim is subject to automatic bite attacks. The stinger tentacle has AC 14 and can take 8 points of slashing damage before being severed. 
SA -- paralysis (ex): Anyone struck by the stinger must make a successful Fortitude save (DC 16) or be paralyzed for 2d6 rounds. 


"It has the ability to assume the coloration of its surroundings and its boneless body can squeeze through openings considerably smaller than its body size. It cannot squeeze under doors or through small cracks. If a man can crawl through an opening, so can a tyrannabyss."

And from the same conversion:

SQ -- camouflage (ex): This grants the tyrannabyss a +4 circumstance bonus to Hide checks. 
SQ -- contraction (ex): The tyrannabyss has no bones or solid organs and is able to squeeze itself through openings much smaller than its apparent size. As a general rule, if a Medium-size or larger creature is able to fit through an opening, so is the tyrannabyss.


----------



## Shade (Nov 28, 2004)

Fast healing it is.  I surrender.  

As for camouflage, it now is rolled into the Skills line unless it is an active, magical or psionic ability (like the yuan-ti).

More on the rest later.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> As for camouflage, it now is rolled into the Skills line unless it is an active, magical or psionic ability (like the yuan-ti).




right - as I was fervently reminded while working on MG: Marsh and Aquatic with you all.  

borrowing a bit from our Trog friends:

Skills: A tyrannabyss has the ability to assume the coloration of its surroundings, providing a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> More on the rest later.




I?ll be waiting; no hurry.


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I think the rend armor attack is close, but not quite on. For the bebilith, you have a creature ripping apart armor (not damaging the character), but here, you have a sawing mouth that grinds through the armor to get at the character underneath. Therefore, we probably need an improved grab combo, with the rend armor. If no armor is worn, or the armor is destroyed, then the character takes the bite damage instead.



I agree.  Doing damage to the armor each round should emulate what they originally intended.  The armor's hardness should account for the AC differences listed.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "Below the mouth of the tyrannabyss is its primary hunting weapon, an elongating tube that can fire a barbed sting to a range of 10'. Its sting paralyzes (saving throw applicable) its prey and the tube is retracted to draw its victim within range of its tentacles. If the saving throw is made, victims with a strength of 15 or better can resist the pulling tube, but take 1 hp damage per round due to the lacerations from the barbed sting. The sting can only be used once; then, 3 turns are required for it to be rearmed."
> 
> For the moment, I'm not going to worry about how long it takes to reload. We can resolve that later. For starters, I looked at an old 3.0 conversion here on ENworld (done by Southern Oracle, who still posts from time to time): http://66.34.111.89/Eric/conversions/tyrannabyss.rtf and found something that we can hopefully adapt:
> 
> ...



How about modifiy the bonespears's abilities a bit:



			
				Fiend Folio said:
			
		

> Attach (Ex): If a bonespear hits with a horn attack, the horn buries itself in its target, held in place by numerous barbs on the horn's surface. EAch round thereafter that a creature remains impaled by a horn, it takes additional horn damage automatically and incurs a cumulative -1 circumstance penalty on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks. On the bonespear's turn in subsequent rounds, it attempts to drag its prey closer (see below).
> A single attack with a slashing weapon against a tendon (made as an attempt to sunder a weapon) that deals at least 15 points of damage severs a horn from its tendon. A creature impaled by a severed horn takes 1d6 points of damage per round automatically until the horn is removed. Removing a horn (a full-round action) deals 2d8 points of damage to the victim, but if the character removing the horn makes a successful Heal check (DC 20), this damage is reduced to 1d4 points.
> 
> Drag: After spearing a victim, a bonespear attempts to drag the victim closer on the bonespear's turn in each subsequent round. This activity resembles the bull rush maneuver, except that the bonespear drags its victim 10 feet closer +1 foot for each point by which its Strength check exceeds the victim's. The bonespear gains a +4 bonus on its drag check if it is set in its immobile stance. Against a Medium victim, the bonespear's Strength modifier is +10, or +14 if it is set in its stance.
> ...






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> "It has the ability to assume the coloration of its surroundings and its boneless body can squeeze through openings considerably smaller than its body size. It cannot squeeze under doors or through small cracks. If a man can crawl through an opening, so can a tyrannabyss."
> 
> And from the same conversion:
> 
> SQ -- contraction (ex): The tyrannabyss has no bones or solid organs and is able to squeeze itself through openings much smaller than its apparent size. As a general rule, if a Medium-size or larger creature is able to fit through an opening, so is the tyrannabyss.



It sounds kinda like amorphous ability of oozes.  I could've sworn that amorphous was an ability, but I can't find any critters that have it.   Regardless, I think we can polish us what you posted as follows:

Semi-amorphous (Ex):  The tyrannabyss has no bones or solid organs and is able to squeeze itself through openings much smaller than its apparent size.  Treat the tyrannabyss as a creature two size categories smaller for purposes of determining what hampers movement and when squeezing (see _Player's Handbook_, page 148).

Note:  I couldn't find the squeezing rules in the SRD, but I'll bet they're in there somewhere.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Note:  I couldn't find the squeezing rules in the SRD, but I'll bet they're in there somewhere.



 Combat II.



> Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.



 Since it normally works off the space of the creature: 1/3? 1/4?


----------



## BOZ (Nov 29, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I agree. Doing damage to the armor each round should emulate what they originally intended. The armor's hardness should account for the AC differences listed.




you’re right about that – this guy’s mouth is like a can opener.   How’s this for a starter:

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tyrannabyss must hit with both tentacle attacks.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rend the character’s armor.

Rend Armor (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a tyrannabyss pulls a character to its mouth and rips apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals (4d6+18) points of damage to the opponent’s armor. Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.  (If the character’s armor is destroyed, or the character is not wearing any armor, the damage is instead done to the character?)




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How about modifiy the bonespears's abilities a bit:




Might as well mix this up with the more current roper rules, too:

Drag (Ex): If a tyrannabyss hits with a stinger attack, the stinger buries itself in its target, held in place by numerous barbs on the stinger's surface. Each round thereafter that a creature remains impaled by a stinger, it takes additional stinger damage automatically and incurs a cumulative -1 circumstance penalty on attack rolls, saves, and skill checks.

After impaling a victim, a tyrannabyss drags the opponent 10 feet closer each subsequent round (provoking no attack of opportunity) unless that creature breaks free, which requires a DC X Escape Artist check or a DC X Strength check. The check DCs are Strength-based, and the Escape Artist DC includes a +4 racial bonus. Either way, the stinger breaks off in the victim and the victim remains impaled.  A tyrannabyss can draw in a creature within 10 feet of itself and bite with a +4 attack bonus in the same round. 

The stinger has 10 hit points and can be attacked by making a successful sunder attempt. However, attacking a tyrannabyss’s stinger does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the stinger is currently attached to a target, the tyrannabyss takes a –4 penalty on its opposed attack roll to resist the sunder attempt. Severing the stinger deals no damage to a tyrannabyss, but the victim remains impaled by the severed stinger.  

A creature impaled by a broken stinger takes (1d6) points of damage per round automatically until the stinger is removed. Removing a stinger (a full-round action) deals (2d8) points of damage to the victim, but if the character removing the stinger makes a successful Heal check (DC 20), this damage is reduced to (1d4) points.

A tyrannabyss can draw in a creature and make tentacle rake attacks with a +4 bonus on its attack roll in the same round.  It takes (X rounds) to rearm the stinger; in the meantime, the tyrannabyss cannot use this attack again.


Stinger (Ex): Most encounters with a tyrannabyss begin when it fires its barbed stinger. If a stinger misses its intended target, it is quickly reeled in. Reeling in the stinger is a full-round action. The stinger has a range of 10 feet (no range increment).

Paralysis (Ex): Living creatures hit by a tyrannabyss’ stinger must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be paralyzed (for X rounds).




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> It sounds kinda like amorphous ability of oozes. I could've sworn that amorphous was an ability, but I can't find any critters that have it. Regardless, I think we can polish us what you posted as follows:
> 
> Boneless (Ex): The tyrannabyss has no bones or solid organs and is able to squeeze itself through openings much smaller than its apparent size. Treat the tyrannabyss as a creature two size categories smaller for purposes of determining what hampers movement and when squeezing (see Player's Handbook, page 148).
> 
> Note: I couldn't find the squeezing rules in the SRD, but I'll bet they're in there somewhere.




that is absolutely perfect.    if it’s not in the SRD, then I guess we do need the PHB reference.


----------



## Knight Otu (Nov 29, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> that is absolutely perfect.    if it’s not in the SRD, then I guess we do need the PHB reference.



 *coughpreviouspostcough*


----------



## Shade (Nov 29, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> you’re right about that – this guy’s mouth is like a can opener.  How’s this for a starter:
> 
> Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a tyrannabyss must hit with both tentacle attacks. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rend the character’s armor.
> 
> Rend Armor (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a tyrannabyss pulls a character to its mouth and rips apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals (4d6+18) points of damage to the opponent’s armor. Creatures not wearing armor are unaffected by this special attack. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check. (If the character’s armor is destroyed, or the character is not wearing any armor, the damage is instead done to the character?)



Improved grab looks good.  Finishing your thought...

Rend Armor (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a tyrannabyss pulls a character to its mouth and rips apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals (4d6+18) points of damage to the opponent’s armor. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check.  Creatures not wearing armor (or whose armor has been destroyed by this ability) are unaffected by this special attack, but instead take automatic bite damage each round.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Drag, Stinger



Both look good.  We'll just need to fill in the X's.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Paralysis (Ex): Living creatures hit by a tyrannabyss’ stinger must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be paralyzed (for X rounds).



Add "The save DC is Constitution-based."



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> that is absolutely perfect.  if it’s not in the SRD, then I guess we do need the PHB reference.



I now direct you to the subliminal coughing stylings of Knight Otu.


----------



## BOZ (Nov 30, 2004)

Good deal - posting in homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Nov 30, 2004)

I suppose it is ability score time before we can proceed further.

The thing looks strong, but not exceptionally strong.  I'd imagine a high Con, low to mid Dex, low Int, high Wis, and average Cha.

Maybe something like:

Str 17-20, Dex 11-13, Con 18-22, Int 1-2, Wis 15-16, Cha 6-7.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 1, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I suppose it is ability score time before we can proceed further.
> 
> The thing looks strong, but not exceptionally strong. I'd imagine a high Con, low to mid Dex, low Int, high Wis, and average Cha.
> 
> ...




hmm, for Int, D&D critters didn?t have an Int score at first, so we actually can make that score up from scratch for a change.    are you sure we should go that low with it?  And have the Wis so much higher?

For the most part though, I agree with the rest of your assessment:

Str 20, Dex 13, Con 18, Cha 6


----------



## Shade (Dec 1, 2004)

I based the Int score off another hunter-type aberration, the carrion crawler (Int 1).  Of course, even an otyugh has Int 5, so I can see it being higher.

The rest of the stats look good.

As an aside, I'd like to request that we work on the draknor from Dungeon #24 next.   There are a couple of threads over in Homebrews of folks looking for illithid-related monsters, and this guy fits the bill.


----------



## Knight Otu (Dec 1, 2004)

Well, the wyste... *ducks the rotten fruit that's thrown at him*

 ... the wyste has Str 22, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 8.



> Boneless (Ex): The tyrannabyss has no bones or solid organs and is able to squeeze itself through openings much smaller than its apparent size. Treat the tyrannabyss as a creature two size categories smaller than itself for the purposes of determining what hampers movement and when squeezing through spaces.



 As per my SRD quote above, I think this might have to be rewritten a little bit.

 Boneless (Ex): The tyrannabyss has no bones or solid organs and is able to squeeze itself through openings much smaller than its apparent size. Treat the tyrannabyss as occupying a space 10 feet smaller than listed for the purposes of determining what hampers movement and when squeezing through spaces.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2004)

I'll go with Int 5, and Wis 11 then.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> As an aside, I'd like to request that we work on the draknor from Dungeon #24 next. There are a couple of threads over in Homebrews of folks looking for illithid-related monsters, and this guy fits the bill.




Ok, I'll give some thought to that.  I'll probably need the stats, because I don't think I have that one.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> As per my SRD quote above, I think this might have to be rewritten a little bit.
> 
> Boneless (Ex): The tyrannabyss has no bones or solid organs and is able to squeeze itself through openings much smaller than its apparent size. Treat the tyrannabyss as occupying a space 10 feet smaller than listed for the purposes of determining what hampers movement and when squeezing through spaces.




thanks!


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> I'll go with Int 5, and Wis 11 then.



Cool. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Ok, I'll give some thought to that. I'll probably need the stats, because I don't think I have that one.



No problem...I've got 'em.   I don't believe it has appeared anywhere else, so this should keep it simple.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 2, 2004)

OK, I will write up the flavor text today, when/if I get the chance.

Updating in homebrews…


----------



## Shade (Dec 2, 2004)

Attack: Tentacle rake +6 melee (1d4+5) or stinger +6 ranged (1d4+2 plus paralysis)?

Damage reduction 5/slashing or piercing?

Power Attack as other feat?

Environment:  Any aquatic?

Org:  Solitary or school (1-4)?

Usually neutral?

Weight:  1,000 lbs?


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## BOZ (Dec 2, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Attack: Tentacle rake +6 melee (1d4+5) or stinger +6 ranged (1d4+2 plus paralysis)?




stinger should be +2 to hit, because the Dex is lower than Str.

Any idea what Treasure Type U was in old D&D?


_This creature resembles a gigantic slug, with a toothy maw surrounded by four 10-foot long, clawed tentacles.  On top of the creature are four short eyestalks.  Beneath its mouth is a small opening, with an elongated tube protruding out from it.  The creature’s slimy hide is rubbery and grey._

The tyrannabyss is a foul hunter that inhabits coastal saltwater areas, especially reefs and rocky shoals.  It is usually content as a bottom feeder, prowling the sea floor in search of prey.  It is smart enough to know, however, that land creatures are a good source of food, and explores buildings near the shore for an easy meal.  These creatures also cling to the bottom of ships with their numerous suckers, to prey on the boat’s crew.

A tyrannabyss has a circular mouth, with rows of rasping teeth that are meant more for grinding and sawing than biting.  Below this mouth is the tube from which the tyrannabyss fires its harpoon-like barbed sting.  The creature’s hide is covered in a thick mucuous that leaves a trail of foul-smelling slime while moving on land.  A tyrannabyss is able to swim quite rapidly for short distances by undulating its huge body.

A tyrannabyss is 20 feet long and weighs about 1,000 pounds.

COMBAT
A tyrannabyss prefers to attack using surprise, and uses its eyestalks to peek around corners, through doors, and above the surface of the water.  When a victim approaches, it surges out from hiding, firing its stinger at the nearest target.  If it impales a victim, the tyrannabyss will dive into the water.  In melee, a tyrannabyss tries to grab a foe with its tentacles, and dive into the water – a drowned opponent does not resist.  By holding a victim in place with its tentacles, a tyrannabyss is able to cut through the armor with its mouth to get to the soft flesh below.


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## Shade (Dec 2, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> stinger should be +2 to hit, because the Dex is lower than Str.



D'oh!  I was even thinking that while I was typing it incorrectly.  :O



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Any idea what Treasure Type U was in old D&D?



No idea.  It would be really nice if we could post a thread with all the old treasure tables to reference while doing conversions.

Nice description.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 3, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> No idea. It would be really nice if we could post a thread with all the old treasure tables to reference while doing conversions.




Well, if I based type U off of the AD&D table, that was no coins, 90% chance of 2-16 games, 80% chance of 1-6 art objects, and 70% chance of 1 magic item.  So… “no coins, 50% goods, 10% items”?


----------



## Shade (Dec 3, 2004)

That sounds fine, although really, I'd think treasure would be incidental, and thus standard would work too.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 3, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> That sounds fine, although really, I'd think treasure would be incidental, and thus standard would work too.




No, Standard seems like it would be a bit more than incidental.  I think a 10% across the board should do it.

OK, updating in homebrews, and moving along…  

it has only 8 skill ranks.  It has a +4 bonus to Hide for camouflage, which is not enough to offset the –8 it takes for size – it has a +1 Dex, but I don’t want to use up all the ranks just to give it a decent Hide check.  For ranks, maybe Hide 2, Listen 3, Spot 3.

It is a big sneaky hidey type of fellow, so maybe Stealthy as a bonus feat or even in place of Power Attack?

For rearming the stinger, do we just want to bite the bullet and say it takes 3 rounds?  30 minutes seems awfully excessive.  

Are these values OK?
A creature impaled by a broken stinger takes (1d6) points of damage per round automatically until the stinger is removed. Removing a stinger (a full-round action) deals (2d8) points of damage to the victim, but if the character removing the stinger makes a successful Heal check (DC 20), this damage is reduced to (1d4) points.

2d6 fine?
Paralysis (Ex): Living creatures hit by a tyrannabyss’ stinger must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save or be paralyzed (for X rounds). The save DC is Constitution-based.

Base damage 4d6 OK or a bit much?  Should the damage bonus be Str (+5) or Str + 1/2 (+7)?
Rend Armor (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a tyrannabyss pulls a character to its mouth, which rips apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals (4d6+18) points of damage to the opponent’s armor. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check. Creatures not wearing armor, or whose armor has been destroyed by this ability, are unaffected by this special attack, but instead take automatic bite damage each round.


----------



## Shade (Dec 4, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> No, Standard seems like it would be a bit more than incidental. I think a 10% across the board should do it.



Cool.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it has only 8 skill ranks. It has a +4 bonus to Hide for camouflage, which is not enough to offset the –8 it takes for size – it has a +1 Dex, but I don’t want to use up all the ranks just to give it a decent Hide check. For ranks, maybe Hide 2, Listen 3, Spot 3.
> 
> It is a big sneaky hidey type of fellow, so maybe Stealthy as a bonus feat or even in place of Power Attack?



Those ranks are fine.   Stealthy instead of Power Attack.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> For rearming the stinger, do we just want to bite the bullet and say it takes 3 rounds? 30 minutes seems awfully excessive.



3 rounds.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Are these values OK?
> A creature impaled by a broken stinger takes (1d6) points of damage per round automatically until the stinger is removed. Removing a stinger (a full-round action) deals (2d8) points of damage to the victim, but if the character removing the stinger makes a successful Heal check (DC 20), this damage is reduced to (1d4) points.



I think these values are fine.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> 2d6 fine?
> Paralysis (Ex): Living creatures hit by a tyrannabyss’ stinger must succeed on a DC 16 Fortitude save or be paralyzed (for X rounds). The save DC is Constitution-based.



Yeah, 2d6 is fine.  A carrion crawler's is 2d4, and it has two less HD than t-byss.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Base damage 4d6 OK or a bit much? Should the damage bonus be Str (+5) or Str + 1/2 (+7)?
> 
> Rend Armor (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a tyrannabyss pulls a character to its mouth, which rips apart any armor worn by its foe. This attack deals (4d6+18) points of damage to the opponent’s armor. Armor reduced to 0 hit points is destroyed. Damaged armor may be repaired with a successful Craft (armorsmithing) check. Creatures not wearing armor, or whose armor has been destroyed by this ability, are unaffected by this special attack, but instead take automatic bite damage each round.



4d6 does seem a bit much for a 5-HD critter.  2d6 is probably more reasonable.

I think it should be Str and 1/2.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Those ranks are fine. Stealthy instead of Power Attack.




OK, I'll agree with that.  But don't you think it might need more of a bonus, since stealth is its main tactic?

I agree with the rest of what you said.


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2004)

Bump the Hide bonus to +8, that'll help.  We could also give it an additional situational Hide bonus when on the bottom of a body of water.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2004)

“It takes 3 full rounds to rearm the stinger; in the meantime, the tyrannabyss cannot use this attack again.”

Hmm… would we need to say anything like “cannot move” or “cannot attack” while it is rearming?  Or should we let a DM assume that it can do this without interfering with its other actions?  Should I add “3 full rounds to rearm the stinger (unless the stinger is broken or currently impaling a creature)”?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Bump the Hide bonus to +8, that'll help. We could also give it an additional situational Hide bonus when on the bottom of a body of water.




?
A tyrannabyss has the ability to assume the coloration of its surroundings, providing a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *When fully submerged in water, a tyrannabyss gains an additional +8 circumstance bonus on Hide checks made against landbound opponents.

Skills: Hide –1*, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Swim +13
Feats: Multiattack, Stealthy


----------



## Shade (Dec 6, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> “It takes 3 full rounds to rearm the stinger; in the meantime, the tyrannabyss cannot use this attack again.”
> 
> Hmm… would we need to say anything like “cannot move” or “cannot attack” while it is rearming? Or should we let a DM assume that it can do this without interfering with its other actions? Should I add “3 full rounds to rearm the stinger (unless the stinger is broken or currently impaling a creature)”?



I think limiting it to no move or attack actions would be too much.   You can add that clarifying bit. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ?
> A tyrannabyss has the ability to assume the coloration of its surroundings, providing a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. *When fully submerged in water, a tyrannabyss gains an additional +8 circumstance bonus on Hide checks made against landbound opponents.



OR, simplify it further, borrowing from another core critter:

*Dragon turtles have a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks when submerged.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Skills: Hide –1*, Listen +3, Move Silently +3, Spot +3, Swim +13
> Feats: Multiattack, Stealthy



It looks good to me.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 6, 2004)

OK, this big guy is just about done.  go have a look in homebrews.


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2004)

CR 6 sounds about right.   Other than that, I think it is done.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 7, 2004)

woohoo!    don't forget, we can add this guy to a "monsters of mystara" theme.    i think...


----------



## Shade (Dec 7, 2004)

Was it Mystaran?   Not that I'd mind seeing it in publication.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 8, 2004)

i don't know that it applied to Mystara or the Known World per se, but it did appear in a D&D module.  i'd have to reread the text to see where exactly this guy came from.


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2004)

Gotcha.  Hopefully it gives a region or locale that'll make it evident.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 8, 2004)

“The Keep at Koralgesh is a Basic D&D game adventure for 6-8 player characters of 1st-3rd level. This dungeon is a difficult adventure for a party made up only of 1st-level characters. Since this dungeon is not intended for a party made up solely of players new to the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game system, it is recommended that at least two or three PCs in the party should be above 1st level in experience. Note the mapping suggestions in "The Shrine of Kor" if placing this adventure in a larger campaign.”

“Adventure Background
The legend of Koralgesh is known by many, but few remember its days of glory. Prior to the adventure, the DM should familiarize the players with the following story, as it is common knowledge in the area around the Mountains of Gesh. 
Note: Koralgesh was destroyed 62 years prior to the start of this adventure, but it has already faded into legend and myth in the surrounding areas. The DM should avoid giving exact dates for its destruction, but the PCs should eventually piece together the date of the Helm's Peak blast.”

I really don’t know much of anything about Mystaran geography, but unless there is something here that ties it in, it’s probably “generic world” stuff.


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2004)

Well, the Vaults of Pandius (the official Mystara page) claims it is indeed in Mystara:

http://www.mystaranet.jamm.com/vaults/html/dungeon.html


----------



## BOZ (Dec 8, 2004)

Take another look at the heading… “D&D/ Mystaran Articles in Dungeon Magazines” which only confirms that these adventures are D&D and/or Mystaran.


----------



## Shade (Dec 8, 2004)

D'oh!   Oh well, just call me Seymour Skimmer.


----------



## Filby (Dec 8, 2004)

Yeah, I can confirm that there's no Mountains of Gesh in the Known World, or the rest of Mystara.


----------



## Shade (Dec 14, 2004)

Bumpin' request for draknor.


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## BOZ (Dec 14, 2004)

well, i need the stats first...


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## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

Ooops, right then. Gentlemen, BEHOLD!

*Draknor*
Climate/Terrain: Special
Frequency: Very rare
Organization: Solitary
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Heat/Carnivore
Intelligence: High (13-14), but special
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
No. Appearing: 1
Armor Class: -7/-1/2
Movement: Nil
Hit Dice: 20 (this specimen has 146 hp)
THACO: 5
No. Of Attacks: 2 claws, 4 tentacles
Damage/Attack: 3-18/3-18/2-8/2-8/2-8/2-8
Special Attacks: Earthquakes, constriction, breath weapon, swallow whole
Special Defenses: Hit only by +2 or better weapons; weapon and spell immunities; regeneration
Magic Resistance: 60%
Size: G (55' across)
MOrale: Fearless (20)
XP Value: 26,000

Draknor are very rarely encountered on the Prime Material plane. These creatures go through three distinct stages of growth: egg, larva, and adult. The statistics above represent a draknor in its larval stage only; the DM must invent statistics for the mature form of a draknor if one is encountered.

In the larval stage, a draknor is 55' wide, 40' long, and about 25' high, not 
including the several dozen feeding tendrils that trail beneath. These tendrils can reach amazing lengths, up to a mile long at times. A draknor larva cannot move from its lair and thus has no movement rate. Its feeding tendrils, however, can slither like snakes at a movement rate of 15 and can burrow through solid rock at a movement rate of 9. This burrowing is achieved by melting the stone with the draknor's intense heat.

The draknor supports itself with 12 rock-hard extensions that attach to nearby cave walls. Two reptilian claws protrude from the monster's front, and four large tentacles adorn its back. A draknor's body is made up of two distinct shells. A 6" gap between the upper and lower shells sports dozens of stalked eyes and sensory organs.

Although the draknor has high intelligence, its thought processes are totally alien to anything else in existence.

COMBAT: Draknor in their larval stage of growth are powerful entitites indeed. A draknor's shell is the consistency of stone; attacks against its main body, suport tentacles, or lizardlike arms and claws are against AC -7. Its four dorsal tentacles are somewhat softer; they have an armor class of -1. It is the draknor's feeding tendrils and the gap between its two shells that are the softest; here the draknor is only AC 2.

A draknor attacks six times a round in melee combat. Two attacks are with its claws, while the other four are with its dorsal tentacles. If a tentacle hits, it constricts its target for 2-12 hp damage per round, with no to-hit roll necessary in subsequent rounds. Breaking free requires a strength of at least 22 or the severing of the tentacle. Each tentacle has 30 hp in addition to the body's total. Instead of constricting a target, or if its claws hit a being of size L or smaller with a number four or more over the number needed to hit, the draknor pops the victim into its mouth. Swallowed PCs take 10-100 hp damage per round due to both acid and heat, and can escape only by doing 50 hp damage to the draknor's interior, which is AC 2. If this is done, the victim is spit up immediately.

A draknor is hit only by +2 or better weaponry. It is immune to poison and 
lightning, and takes half damage from acid. Cold causes double damage. Fire and heat heal the draknor for a number of hit points equal to the attack's normal damage, up to the creature's maximum hit points.

A draknor cannot be magically controlled and, since its thought processes are so alien, it is immune to all forms of mental attack. Treat it as if it had a 25 wisdom on Table 5, page 17 of the 2nd Edition _Player's Handbook_. It is immune to and reflects _mind blast _as well.

The 30 tendrils that trail under the draknor's body tap into heat reserves (usually pools of magma, but any continual source of great heat will do). Each tendril takes 10 hp damage to sever. If all the tendrils are severed, the draknor will no longer have a method of consuming heat and will die of starvation in about two weeks. As long as at least one of the tentacles is even partially intact, the draknor will regenerate all damage at the rate of 3 hp per round. For every 10 tentacles severed, the number of hit points regenerated per round decreases by one.

A draknor has two ways to attack assailants at long range. First, it can send a burrowing tentacle through the rocky ground under a target, causing a minor, localized earthquake that knocks teh target down on a successful hit. The victim must also save vs. paralyzation or be stunned for 2-5 rounds. The draknor can attack up to three targets per round in this fashion.

Second, in any round that it is not swallowing something, a draknor can choose to forego its regeneration and spew the heat from its mouth at any one target. This heat takes the form of a ruby-red ray that is 1' wide and up to 200' long. If this attack hits, the target must save vs. breath weapon or take 5-60 (5d12) hp damage (half damage if the save is made). Although the draknor is not damaged by its own heat ray, neither can it heal itself by striking itself with this ray.

HABITAT/SOCIETY: A draknor spends the first part of its life on the Prime Material plane. It is not known how draknor eggs arrive here, but it may be inferred that an adult draknor travels to this plane to place its eggs in secluded spots. In its egg form, a draknor is defenseless, but it soon hatches into the larval form and begins to search for food. Draknor are never encountered except singly and are always found underground. Once fully grown, the draknor migrates to the para-elemental plane of Magma to live out the rest of its life. Not much is known about adult draknor, as they have never been seen on this plane. These adults are certain to be much more powerful than their larvae, although exact details are up to the individual DM.

ECOLOGY: The draknor begins life as a 2 ft.-long egg with no forms of attack or defense. The egg has an armor class of 8 and can be destroyed very quickly and safely. After a year of growth, the egg has expanded to a length of 20' and is ready to hatch.

To grow to adulthood, the draknor larva that emerges from the egg must find a source of continual heat within two weeks or it will die. To accomplish this, the immobile draknor uses a set of 30 burrowing tentacles that snake through the ground to find pockets of molten rock. Once this magma is located, the draknor begins to grow again, gaining 1 hp every other day (starting with a total of 100). As soon as it reaches a total of 160 hp, the draknor is mature and migrates to the para-elemental plane of Magma. The great vortex of energy created by its leaving usually transforms the area into a flaming volcanic region.

Although draknor are highly intelligent, they cannot (or choose not to) communicate with other life forms. Due to their destructive life cycles, they are hunted down as soon as their presence becomes known. Although draknor eat mainly heat, they are capable of digesting both organic and inorganic substances. Just how these substances are used in draknor metabolism is not clear, although many sages hypothesize that the draknor gain both their intelligence and sensory faculties from these sources.

Source: Dungeon Magazine #24, "Thunder Under Needlespire", James Jacobs, p. 59-60.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

By the way, I'd say a conversion of this one is a shoo-in for inclusion in the Creature Catalog in Dragon Magazine. First, check out the author. 

Second, note that Erik Mona mentioned that this was the first adventure from Dungeon he ever ran, and is quite nostalgic about it.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 15, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> Gentlemen, BEHOLD!




heehee  

Whoo yeah, that’s an epic level creature allright!

And I didn’t realize that James Jacobs did this one… hmm, you think it might help that he is now the editor of the magazine?    (does it count as sucking up to submit this and the ulitharid, even if I didn’t consciously realize at the time that these were his creations?)  

some preliminary stats for the draknor:

*Draknor*
Gargantuan (Aberration? Outsider?) (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 20d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 0 ft
Armor Class: 27 (-4 size, +X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+X
Attack: X
Full Attack: 2 claws +X melee (3d6+X) and 4 tentacles +X melee (2d4+X)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft
Special Attacks: breath weapon, constrict, earthquakes, heat, improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: alien mind, damage reduction X/X, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 3, healing from fire, immune to mind-affecting effects, immunity to electricity and poison, resistance to acid X, spell resistance X, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +X Ref +X Will +X
Abilities: Str X, Dex X, Con X, Int 14?, Wis 25?, Cha X
Skills: X
Feats: 7

Environment: Elemental Plane of Fire?
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: ---


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> heehee



I got volumes 2 and 3 of Aqua Teen Hunger Force for my birthday, so I watched quite a few of them recently.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Whoo yeah, that’s an epic level creature allright!



It sure is.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> And I didn’t realize that James Jacobs did this one… hmm, you think it might help that he is now the editor of the magazine?  (does it count as sucking up to submit this and the ulitharid, even if I didn’t consciously realize at the time that these were his creations?)



It might help a little bit.      I don't think it counts as sucking up.  In fact, I'll bet that he's been anxiously awaiting the updating of his "babies" to 3E.

First off, I'm torn on the aberration vs. outsider debate.   Looking at the descriptions of the two types...



			
				Monster Manual said:
			
		

> Aberration Type: An aberration has a bizarre anatomy, strange abilities, an alien mindset, or any combination of the three.
> 
> Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.



...it definitely meets all criteria for aberration.   It does have a bit of the essence of another plane, so it could also be an outsider.  My gut says go with aberration, and if we are ever brave (or crazy) enough to stat out the mature draknor, they'd be outsiders.  If we do go with aberration, we'll definitely want the Extraplanar subtype.

Is 20 HD enough?   I'm thinking back to the archfiend conversions, where it was revealed that you divide the hp by 4.5 to get the HD.   Dividing 146 by 4.5 yields 32 HD, and 100 divided by 4.5 is 22.   Just a thought.

For environment, since we don't have the Paraelemental Plane of Magma as an option, I'd follow the magma paraelemental and go with Elemental Plane of Earth and Elemental Plane of Fire.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 15, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> First off, I'm torn on the aberration vs. outsider debate. Looking at the descriptions of the two types...
> 
> ...it definitely meets all criteria for aberration. It does have a bit of the essence of another plane, so it could also be an outsider. My gut says go with aberration, and if we are ever brave (or crazy) enough to stat out the mature draknor, they'd be outsiders. If we do go with aberration, we'll definitely want the Extraplanar subtype.




Aberration (Extraplanar) would not be wrong.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Is 20 HD enough? I'm thinking back to the archfiend conversions, where it was revealed that you divide the hp by 4.5 to get the HD. Dividing 146 by 4.5 yields 32 HD, and 100 divided by 4.5 is 22. Just a thought.




Sure, we could go higher.  All the way to 32 if you really want?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> For environment, since we don't have the Paraelemental Plane of Magma as an option, I'd follow the magma paraelemental and go with Elemental Plane of Earth and Elemental Plane of Fire.




Do you want both?  I was thinking the plane of Fire might be enough.  That way they all come from the same place.  Or maybe Earth would be better.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Aberration (Extraplanar) would not be wrong.



Yeah, that just seems the right fit. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Sure, we could go higher. All the way to 32 if you really want?



How about we start 'em at 22, with advancement range to 32.  After that, it is presumed that they become "adults".  <shivers at the thought> 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Do you want both? I was thinking the plane of Fire might be enough. That way they all come from the same place. Or maybe Earth would be better.



Yeah, I like both.   I wish they'd included the Paraelemental planes in 3E, but since they didn't this signifies that they can exist on both Earth and Fire, and probably mostly on the borders of the two.

Do we give them the Earth and Fire subtypes as well?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 15, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about we start 'em at 22, with advancement range to 32.  After that, it is presumed that they become "adults".  <shivers at the thought>




a bit weird, but yeah i guess that could work...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Do we give them the Earth and Fire subtypes as well?




Fire, yes.  Earth... maybe.


----------



## Shade (Dec 15, 2004)

For ability scores, the shivhad from Frostburn is of similar size and shape (as close as you'll get to this bizarro anatomy ).  Here are its ability scores:

Str 32, Dex 15, Con 23, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 12.

The physical ability scores could be comparable, but their Int scores differ by 7 points, so mental scores probably won't be similiar.


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2004)

Prioritizing.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 20, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> For ability scores, the shivhad from Frostburn is of similar size and shape (as close as you'll get to this bizarro anatomy  ). Here are its ability scores:
> 
> Str 32, Dex 15, Con 23, Int 21, Wis 14, Cha 12.
> 
> The physical ability scores could be comparable, but their Int scores differ by 7 points, so mental scores probably won't be similiar.




it’s… Bizarro!

I guess the physical scores are fine (maybe we can give/take up to 5 on each).  And yes, the mental stats do need to change.

“A draknor cannot be magically controlled and, since its thought processes are so alien, it is immune to all forms of mental attack. Treat it as if it had a 25 wisdom on Table 5, page 17 of the 2nd Edition Player's Handbook.”

This passage can be taken literally to mean that it should have a Wis of 25, but given the phrasing I’d say it means rather that the creature would be immune to the following: “cause fear, charm person, command, friends, hypnotism, forget, hold person, ray of enfeeblement, scare, fear, charm monster, confusion, emotion, fumble, suggestion, chaos, feeblemind, hold monster, magic jar, quest, geas, mass suggestion, rod of rulership, antipathy/sympathy, death spell, and mass charm” or, in other words, simply mind-affecting effects.  

A Cha of 12 might actually be fine, though.


----------



## Shade (Dec 20, 2004)

I agree with the immunity to mind-affecting abilities rather than actual Wisdom of 25.

It strikes me as stronger, but less hardy, than the shivhad.  So maybe increase the Str and decrease the Con.  Dex is useful for its heat ray, so maybe a slight increase?  

Perhaps:  Str 35, Dex 17, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 12?


----------



## BOZ (Dec 21, 2004)

Shade said:
			
		

> I agree with the immunity to mind-affecting abilities rather than actual Wisdom of 25.
> 
> It strikes me as stronger, but less hardy, than the shivhad. So maybe increase the Str and decrease the Con. Dex is useful for its heat ray, so maybe a slight increase?
> 
> Perhaps: Str 35, Dex 17, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 12?




that’s all fine by me.  

Let’s have a look at everything else that’s not specifically flavor text:

In the larval stage, a draknor is 55' wide, 40' long, and about 25' high, not 
including the several dozen feeding tendrils that trail beneath. These tendrils can reach amazing lengths, up to a mile long at times. A draknor larva cannot move from its lair and thus has no movement rate. Its feeding tendrils, however, can slither like snakes at a movement rate of 15 and can burrow through solid rock at a movement rate of 9. This burrowing is achieved by melting the stone with the draknor's intense heat.

The draknor supports itself with 12 rock-hard extensions that attach to nearby cave walls. 

 A draknor's shell is the consistency of stone; attacks against its main body, suport tentacles, or lizardlike arms and claws are against AC -7. Its four dorsal tentacles are somewhat softer; they have an armor class of -1. It is the draknor's feeding tendrils and the gap between its two shells that are the softest; here the draknor is only AC 2.

If a tentacle hits, it constricts its target for 2-12 hp damage per round, with no to-hit roll necessary in subsequent rounds. Breaking free requires a strength of at least 22 or the severing of the tentacle. Each tentacle has 30 hp in addition to the body's total. Instead of constricting a target, or if its claws hit a being of size L or smaller with a number four or more over the number needed to hit, the draknor pops the victim into its mouth. Swallowed PCs take 10-100 hp damage per round due to both acid and heat, and can escape only by doing 50 hp damage to the draknor's interior, which is AC 2. If this is done, the victim is spit up immediately.

Fire and heat heal the draknor for a number of hit points equal to the attack's normal damage, up to the creature's maximum hit points.

It is immune to and reflects mind blast as well.

The 30 tendrils that trail under the draknor's body tap into heat reserves (usually pools of magma, but any continual source of great heat will do). Each tendril takes 10 hp damage to sever. If all the tendrils are severed, the draknor will no longer have a method of consuming heat and will die of starvation in about two weeks. As long as at least one of the tentacles is even partially intact, the draknor will regenerate all damage at the rate of 3 hp per round. For every 10 tentacles severed, the number of hit points regenerated per round decreases by one.

A draknor has two ways to attack assailants at long range. First, it can send a burrowing tentacle through the rocky ground under a target, causing a minor, localized earthquake that knocks teh target down on a successful hit. The victim must also save vs. paralyzation or be stunned for 2-5 rounds. The draknor can attack up to three targets per round in this fashion.

Second, in any round that it is not swallowing something, a draknor can choose to forego its regeneration and spew the heat from its mouth at any one target. This heat takes the form of a ruby-red ray that is 1' wide and up to 200' long. If this attack hits, the target must save vs. breath weapon or take 5-60 (5d12) hp damage (half damage if the save is made). Although the draknor is not damaged by its own heat ray, neither can it heal itself by striking itself with this ray.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> In the larval stage, a draknor is 55' wide, 40' long, and about 25' high, not including the several dozen feeding tendrils that trail beneath. These tendrils can reach amazing lengths, up to a mile long at times. A draknor larva cannot move from its lair and thus has no movement rate. Its feeding tendrils, however, can slither like snakes at a movement rate of 15 and can burrow through solid rock at a movement rate of 9. This burrowing is achieved by melting the stone with the draknor's intense heat.



Is there any precedent for a creature that doesn't move, but its parts do?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The draknor supports itself with 12 rock-hard extensions that attach to nearby cave walls.



If nothing else, this should provide stability (+4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped).  The bonus should probably be much higher, or simply state that they are immovable.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A draknor's shell is the consistency of stone; attacks against its main body, suport tentacles, or lizardlike arms and claws are against AC -7. Its four dorsal tentacles are somewhat softer; they have an armor class of -1. It is the draknor's feeding tendrils and the gap between its two shells that are the softest; here the draknor is only AC 2.



Having a different DC for tentacles is easy.  The gap is a bit trickier, since there are no called shots in 3.5.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> If a tentacle hits, it constricts its target for 2-12 hp damage per round, with no to-hit roll necessary in subsequent rounds. Breaking free requires a strength of at least 22 or the severing of the tentacle. Each tentacle has 30 hp in addition to the body's total. Instead of constricting a target, or if its claws hit a being of size L or smaller with a number four or more over the number needed to hit, the draknor pops the victim into its mouth. Swallowed PCs take 10-100 hp damage per round due to both acid and heat, and can escape only by doing 50 hp damage to the draknor's interior, which is AC 2. If this is done, the victim is spit up immediately.



Improved Grab, constrict, and swallow whole.   Tentacle severing should be dealt with like the roper or kraken.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Fire and heat heal the draknor for a number of hit points equal to the attack's normal damage, up to the creature's maximum hit points.



Fire Healing (Su):  A magical attack that deals fire damage heals 1 point of damage for each point of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the draknor to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A draknor gets no saving throw against fire effects.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> It is immune to and reflects mind blast as well.



Immunity to mind-affecting abilities will cover the immune part, but for the reflection, we'll need to add an ability.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> The 30 tendrils that trail under the draknor's body tap into heat reserves (usually pools of magma, but any continual source of great heat will do). Each tendril takes 10 hp damage to sever. If all the tendrils are severed, the draknor will no longer have a method of consuming heat and will die of starvation in about two weeks. As long as at least one of the tentacles is even partially intact, the draknor will regenerate all damage at the rate of 3 hp per round. For every 10 tentacles severed, the number of hit points regenerated per round decreases by one.



We can borrow from the roper for tendril-severing.  

Fast Healing (Ex):  A draknor heals 3 points of damage per round as long as one of its tendrils is attached to a source of continual heat (such as magma).  If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1.   A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> A draknor has two ways to attack assailants at long range. First, it can send a burrowing tentacle through the rocky ground under a target, causing a minor, localized earthquake that knocks teh target down on a successful hit. The victim must also save vs. paralyzation or be stunned for 2-5 rounds. The draknor can attack up to three targets per round in this fashion.



Earthquake Strike (Ex):  A draknor can send a burrowing tentacle through the rocky ground under a target, causing a minor, localized earthquake that knocks the target prone on a successful hit. The victim must also succeed on a DC X Fortitude(?) save or be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. The draknor can attack up to three targets per round in this fashion.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Second, in any round that it is not swallowing something, a draknor can choose to forego its regeneration and spew the heat from its mouth at any one target. This heat takes the form of a ruby-red ray that is 1' wide and up to 200' long. If this attack hits, the target must save vs. breath weapon or take 5-60 (5d12) hp damage (half damage if the save is made). Although the draknor is not damaged by its own heat ray, neither can it heal itself by striking itself with this ray.



Heat Ray (Ex):  A draknor may forego its fast healing for the round, instead spewing the heat it channels into a ruby-red ray.  This ray has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments, and the target takes 5d12 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X halves).  The draknor cannot heal itself with its heat ray.  The save DC is Constitution(?)-based.


----------



## BOZ (Dec 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> In the larval stage, a draknor is 55' wide, 40' long, and about 25' high, not including the several dozen feeding tendrils that trail beneath. These tendrils can reach amazing lengths, up to a mile long at times. A draknor larva cannot move from its lair and thus has no movement rate. Its feeding tendrils, however, can slither like snakes at a movement rate of 15 and can burrow through solid rock at a movement rate of 9. This burrowing is achieved by melting the stone with the draknor's intense heat.






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Is there any precedent for a creature that doesn't move, but its parts do?




the Presence?    I don’t know.  I’d say the mile-long tendrils are likely coiled up next to the draknor’s body in huge piles when not being used, and can travel (you’d be thinking of the tips as the parts that are moving, I guess) fairly quickly along the ground or burrowing.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> If nothing else, this should provide stability (+4 bonus on ability checks made to resist being bull rushed or tripped). The bonus should probably be much higher, or simply state that they are immovable.




Meh?

Immoveable (Ex): A draknor anchors itself to the cave walls of its lair using 12 rock-hard extensions.  This renders a draknor immune to bull rush and trip attacks.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Having a different DC for tentacles is easy. The gap is a bit trickier, since there are no called shots in 3.5.




DC or AC?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Improved Grab, constrict, and swallow whole. Tentacle severing should be dealt with like the roper or kraken.




a bit sloppy, but how does this look for now?

An opponent can attack a draknor’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tentacles have 30 hit points each. If a draknor is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a draknor’s tentacles deals 15 points of damage to the creature.  A draknor usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) tentacles.  The creature regrows severed limbs in (X) days.

Constrict (Ex): A draknor deals 2d6+X points of damage with a successful grapple check.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a draknor must hit with its claw or tentacle attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict if grappling with a tentacle.  If grappling with a claw, the draknor transfers the opponent to its mouth and can attempt to swallow the foe in the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A draknor can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check.  The swallowed creature takes X points of crushing damage plus X points of acid damage and X points of fire damage per round from the draknor’s gizzard.  A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 50? points of damage to the draknor’s gut (AC X).  Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Fire Healing (Su): A magical attack that deals fire damage heals 1 point of damage for each point of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the draknor to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A draknor gets no saving throw against fire effects.




sounds good, but does it need to be a magical attack?  Let me reexamine the flavor text… it’s very possible that this ability and the one below need to be rolled into one…



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Immunity to mind-affecting abilities will cover the immune part, but for the reflection, we'll need to add an ability.




OK.  

Reflect Mind Blast (Su): If a draknor is hit by a mind blast ability, it can turn the mind blast back upon the creature attacking it.  Instead of a 60-foot cone, this attack manifests as a line that strikes only the creature that attacked with the mind blast.

Should we keep the same DC, or increase it to the draknor’s level?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We can borrow from the roper for tendril-severing.




ah, damn.  I don’t feel like rewriting that part again… remind me to do it later.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Fast Healing (Ex): A draknor heals 3 points of damage per round as long as one of its tendrils is attached to a source of continual heat (such as magma). If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1. A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.




see my comment above.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Earthquake Strike (Ex): A draknor can send a burrowing tentacle through the rocky ground under a target, causing a minor, localized earthquake that knocks the target prone on a successful hit. The victim must also succeed on a DC X Fortitude(?) save or be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. The draknor can attack up to three targets per round in this fashion.
> 
> Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may forego its fast healing for the round, instead spewing the heat it channels into a ruby-red ray. This ray has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments, and the target takes 5d12 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X halves). The draknor cannot heal itself with its heat ray. The save DC is Constitution(?)-based.




I need a break.  We’ll keep these two as-is, provisionally, and change them as needed based on the changes made to things above.


----------



## Shade (Dec 21, 2004)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the Presence?  I don’t know. I’d say the mile-long tendrils are likely coiled up next to the draknor’s body in huge piles when not being used, and can travel (you’d be thinking of the tips as the parts that are moving, I guess) fairly quickly along the ground or burrowing.



   So, do we give it a movement rate of 0 ft.?  Do we add the movement rate of the burrowing tentacles to the speed line, or mention it in the combat section?   Do we list "up to one mile" on the space/reach line for burrowing tentacles? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Meh?
> 
> Immoveable (Ex): A draknor anchors itself to the cave walls of its lair using 12 rock-hard extensions. This renders a draknor immune to bull rush and trip attacks.



Perfecto! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> DC or AC?



Well, Hell's bells, it's AC/DC.  

Yeah, I meant AC. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> a bit sloppy, but how does this look for now?
> 
> An opponent can attack a draknor’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tentacles have 30 hit points each. If a draknor is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a draknor’s tentacles deals 15 points of damage to the creature. A draknor usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in (X) days.
> 
> ...



Lookin' good.  I'll revisit it once it hits homebrews, as I too, need a break.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good, but does it need to be a magical attack? Let me reexamine the flavor text… it’s very possible that this ability and the one below need to be rolled into one…



Dunno.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> OK.
> 
> Reflect Mind Blast (Su): If a draknor is hit by a mind blast ability, it can turn the mind blast back upon the creature attacking it. Instead of a 60-foot cone, this attack manifests as a line that strikes only the creature that attacked with the mind blast.



Cool!  I like the "line instead of a cone" bit.



> Should we keep the same DC, or increase it to the draknor’s level?



Hmmm...probably same DC.  That seems to be the norm for reflected stuff. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> ah, damn. I don’t feel like rewriting that part again… remind me to do it later.



Will do.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> see my comment above.



Gotcha. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I need a break. We’ll keep these two as-is, provisionally, and change them as needed based on the changes made to things above.



Cool.  I'm thinking that much of this will be easier to reexamine once it hits Homebrews, so we can see "the big picture".


----------



## BOZ (Jan 24, 2005)

I think it’s about time to get back to this one, for obvious reasons.  

I don’t really want to get on to the other conversions yet, until I hear back from Dragon.  I had some questions that I want to see answers for before I get too deeply involved.  But, since we were in the process of working on the draknor anyway, why keep it sitting there?  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> So, do we give it a movement rate of 0 ft.? Do we add the movement rate of the burrowing tentacles to the speed line, or mention it in the combat section? Do we list "up to one mile" on the space/reach line for burrowing tentacles?




the drankor itself should have a speed of 0 ft, assuming it is not capable of moving in and of itself.

The tentacles should probably receive an entry in the combat section as an Ex ability.  In this section, it would state that the attacking ends of the tentacles can burrow at a certain rate, and they can move up to one mile from the draknor’s main body.

I would not put “up to one mile” on the reach, simply because people would assume that the draknor can then attack ALL targets within one mile of itself at any time – and that we do not want.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Having a different DC for tentacles is easy. The gap is a bit trickier, since there are no called shots in 3.5.





			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> DC or AC?





			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Well, Hell's bells, it's AC/DC.
> 
> Yeah, I meant AC.




So then what, if anything, would you propose to do about that?  




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Fire Healing (Su): A magical attack that deals fire damage heals 1 point of damage for each point of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the draknor to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A draknor gets no saving throw against fire effects.






			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> sounds good, but does it need to be a magical attack?  Let me reexamine the flavor text… it’s very possible that this ability and the one below need to be rolled into one…






			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Dunno.




any further thoughts?  




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Fast Healing (Ex): A draknor heals 3 points of damage per round as long as one of its tendrils is attached to a source of continual heat (such as magma). If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1. A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.
> 
> Earthquake Strike (Ex): A draknor can send a burrowing tentacle through the rocky ground under a target, causing a minor, localized earthquake that knocks the target prone on a successful hit. The victim must also succeed on a DC X Fortitude(?) save or be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. The draknor can attack up to three targets per round in this fashion.
> 
> Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may forego its fast healing for the round, instead spewing the heat it channels into a ruby-red ray. This ray has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments, and the target takes 5d12 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X halves). The draknor cannot heal itself with its heat ray. The save DC is Constitution(?)-based.




I don’t have any further thoughts on these at the moment.  This guy is a lot of work.


----------



## Shade (Jan 24, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the drankor itself should have a speed of 0 ft, assuming it is not capable of moving in and of itself.
> 
> The tentacles should probably receive an entry in the combat section as an Ex ability. In this section, it would state that the attacking ends of the tentacles can burrow at a certain rate, and they can move up to one mile from the draknor’s main body.
> 
> I would not put “up to one mile” on the reach, simply because people would assume that the draknor can then attack ALL targets within one mile of itself at any time – and that we do not want.




Here's how I think we should do it:  The draknor itself is immobile (0 ft. movement).  However, it still has a Dex score and can make Reflex saves (even though immobile things usually cannot).   Its "heat-seeking", noncombat tentacles still reach up to a mile (since it is necessary for it to survive), but its dorsal, "attack" tendrils have a reach more appropriate for a creature of its size (I'm thinking maybe 50 feet). 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> So then what, if anything, would you propose to do about that?




We could modify the weak spot ability from our very own great elder wyrm conversion.  

*Weak Spot (Ex)*: A confirmed critical hit on a natural 20 with a slashing or piercing weapon allows a creature to take advantage of an elder wyrm’s weak spot (if it remains exposed), increasing the weapon’s damage multiplier by one step (for example, a longsword which has a multiplier of x2 would have a multiplier of x3 against a great elder wyrm’s weak spot).




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> any further thoughts?




It probably shouldn't be limited to "magical" fire attacks.  Any fire damage should suffice.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I don’t have any further thoughts on these at the moment. This guy is a lot of work.




Yeah, but he's worth it.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 25, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Here's how I think we should do it: The draknor itself is immobile (0 ft. movement). However, it still has a Dex score and can make Reflex saves (even though immobile things usually cannot). Its "heat-seeking", noncombat tentacles still reach up to a mile (since it is necessary for it to survive), but its dorsal, "attack" tendrils have a reach more appropriate for a creature of its size (I'm thinking maybe 50 feet).




Ok, there we go, I wasn’t getting it…  there are separate tendrils to attack and ones to feed.  Let me take this, from the text, and spell it out clearly as night and day to avoid further confusion.  And we will use the words “tendril” and “tentacle” to mean a specific set of parts:

*Tendrils*: There are 30 feeding tendrils, that lie under the draknor and can burrow in the ground up to a mile away.  These it uses to regenerate from heat sources.

*Tentacles*: These four dorsal tentacles are used in combat, and allow the draknor to constrict.

It makes sense to give the tentacles 50’ reach, as there is no range given in the text (that I can see).

I’m wondering one thing, should the Dex be lower than 17?  Maybe a good old 10 would do?

Here’s a first shot (stealing from Shade):

Tendrils (Ex): A draknor has 30 tendrils that it uses to feed on heat sources.  These tendrils move independently of the draknor’s body, at a speed of 40 feet per round, and burrow through solid rock at a speed of 30 feet per round.  The ends of these tendrils can reach up to a mile away from the draknor’s main body.  If one or more of a draknor’s tendrils tap into a source of continual heat (such as magma), the draknor heals 3 points of damage per round (as fast healing).  A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.

An opponent can attack a draknor’s tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tendrils have 10 hit points each. Severing one of a draknor’s tendrils deals 5 points of damage to the creature.  If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2 points per round, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1 point per round. These tendrils do not grow back without healing magic, and if all are severed, the draknor will die of starvation in two weeks.




			
				Shade said:
			
		

> We could modify the weak spot ability from our very own great elder wyrm conversion.
> 
> Weak Spot (Ex): A confirmed critical hit on a natural 20 with a slashing or piercing weapon allows a creature to take advantage of an elder wyrm’s weak spot (if it remains exposed), increasing the weapon’s damage multiplier by one step (for example, a longsword which has a multiplier of x2 would have a multiplier of x3 against a great elder wyrm’s weak spot).




true… but I’m not so confident that this vulnerability is necessary.


“A draknor is hit only by +2 or better weaponry.”


here’s another attempt at these two… see if you can fix some of what is not clear about each one.

Earthquake Strike (Ex): A draknor can cause a minor, localized earthquake from the end of any of its tendrils as a standard action, once per round.  This effect can affect up to three creatures, who must all be directly above in a 30-foot radius of the tendril on the ground level.  These targets will be knocked prone, and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save of be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may spew the heat it channels through its tendrils into a ruby-red ray. This ray comes from its mouth, and has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments, and the target takes 5d12 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half). A draknor cannot strike itself with its own heat ray. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Is this a ray, as in it gets a ranged attack, or is it a line as in the target gets a Reflex save?


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Ok, there we go, I wasn’t getting it… there are separate tendrils to attack and ones to feed. Let me take this, from the text, and spell it out clearly as night and day to avoid further confusion. And we will use the words “tendril” and “tentacle” to mean a specific set of parts:
> 
> *Tendrils*: There are 30 feeding tendrils, that lie under the draknor and can burrow in the ground up to a mile away. These it uses to regenerate from heat sources.
> 
> ...




I picked 50 ft. out of the air.  Since it is a Gargantuan creature, it has a reach of 20 ft. by default.   Since tentacles often have a reach of more than double the normal reach, I went with 50 ft.   I just looked at the kraken, another Gargantuan creature with tentacles, and it has a reach of 60 ft.   So maybe we should bumb it to 60 ft.?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I’m wondering one thing, should the Dex be lower than 17? Maybe a good old 10 would do?




That is probably reasonable, since immobile creatures usually have no Dex score.  A 10 is a blessing.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Here’s a first shot (stealing from Shade):
> 
> Tendrils (Ex): A draknor has 30 tendrils that it uses to feed on heat sources. These tendrils move independently of the draknor’s body, at a speed of 40 feet per round, and burrow through solid rock at a speed of 30 feet per round. The ends of these tendrils can reach up to a mile away from the draknor’s main body. If one or more of a draknor’s tendrils tap into a source of continual heat (such as magma), the draknor heals 3 points of damage per round (as fast healing). A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.
> 
> An opponent can attack a draknor’s tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tendrils have 10 hit points each. Severing one of a draknor’s tendrils deals 5 points of damage to the creature. If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2 points per round, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1 point per round. These tendrils do not grow back without healing magic, and if all are severed, the draknor will die of starvation in two weeks.




This Shade fella is clueless.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> true… but I’m not so confident that this vulnerability is necessary.




Agreed.  Let's ditch it.  It just complicates an already complicated monster.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> “A draknor is hit only by +2 or better weaponry.”




I'm thinking either DR 15/magic or DR 5/epic.   I'd prefer the latter.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> here’s another attempt at these two… see if you can fix some of what is not clear about each one.
> 
> Earthquake Strike (Ex): A draknor can cause a minor, localized earthquake from the end of any of its tendrils as a standard action, once per round. This effect can affect up to three creatures, who must all be directly above in a 30-foot radius of the tendril on the ground level. These targets will be knocked prone, and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save of be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.




I'd change "this effect can affect" to simply "this can affect" or "this ability affects".  I'd also change it simply to a 30-foot-radius rather than up to three targets within the radius.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may spew the heat it channels through its tendrils into a ruby-red ray. This ray comes from its mouth, and has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments, and the target takes 5d12 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half). A draknor cannot strike itself with its own heat ray. The save DC is Constitution-based.
> 
> Is this a ray, as in it gets a ranged attack, or is it a line as in the target gets a Reflex save?




The original text seems to indicate a ray, since it only hits one target.   Therefore, I'd abandon the Reflex save.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 25, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I picked 50 ft. out of the air. Since it is a Gargantuan creature, it has a reach of 20 ft. by default. Since tentacles often have a reach of more than double the normal reach, I went with 50 ft. I just looked at the kraken, another Gargantuan creature with tentacles, and it has a reach of 60 ft. So maybe we should bumb it to 60 ft.?




50, 60… it’s all the same to me.    it’s still a hell of a reach, and will confound most attempts to combat the draknor.  Want to go 60?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> This Shade fella is clueless.




heh.    so, does that mean you want to keep this writeup?

Tendrils (Ex): A draknor has 30 tendrils that it uses to feed on heat sources.  These tendrils move independently of the draknor’s body, at a speed of 40 feet per round, and burrow through solid rock at a speed of 30 feet per round.  The ends of these tendrils can reach up to a mile away from the draknor’s main body.  If one or more of a draknor’s tendrils tap into a source of continual heat (such as magma), the draknor heals 3 points of damage per round (as fast healing).  A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.

An opponent can attack a draknor’s tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tendrils have 10 hit points each. Severing one of a draknor’s tendrils deals 5 points of damage to the creature.  If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2 points per round, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1 point per round. These tendrils do not grow back without healing magic, and if all are severed, the draknor will die of starvation in two weeks.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'm thinking either DR 15/magic or DR 5/epic. I'd prefer the latter.




yeah… that will do just fine, I think.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I'd change "this effect can affect" to simply "this can affect" or "this ability affects". I'd also change it simply to a 30-foot-radius rather than up to three targets within the radius.




you know what, this does make a lot more sense now:

Earthquake Strike (Ex): A draknor can cause a minor, localized earthquake from the end of any of its tendrils as a standard action, once per round.  This can affect all creatures in a 30-foot radius directly above the tendril, on the ground level.  These targets will be knocked prone, and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save of be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The original text seems to indicate a ray, since it only hits one target. Therefore, I'd abandon the Reflex save.




true… but taking away that Reflex save makes this a very deadly attack.  The ranged touch attack would be at +13 to hit, and that’s a lot of fire damage with no saving throw.  Is there any precedence for such a ray attack having a Reflex save for half?

Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may spew the heat it channels through its tendrils into a ruby-red ray. This ray comes from its mouth, and has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments, and the target takes 5d12 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half). A draknor cannot strike itself with its own heat ray. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> 50, 60… it’s all the same to me.  it’s still a hell of a reach, and will confound most attempts to combat the draknor. Want to go 60?




"But these amps go to 11."  

Yeah, let's go 60.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> heh.  so, does that mean you want to keep this writeup?
> 
> Tendrils (Ex): A draknor has 30 tendrils that it uses to feed on heat sources. These tendrils move independently of the draknor’s body, at a speed of 40 feet per round, and burrow through solid rock at a speed of 30 feet per round. The ends of these tendrils can reach up to a mile away from the draknor’s main body. If one or more of a draknor’s tendrils tap into a source of continual heat (such as magma), the draknor heals 3 points of damage per round (as fast healing). A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.
> 
> An opponent can attack a draknor’s tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tendrils have 10 hit points each. Severing one of a draknor’s tendrils deals 5 points of damage to the creature. If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2 points per round, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1 point per round. These tendrils do not grow back without healing magic, and if all are severed, the draknor will die of starvation in two weeks.




Yep, it still looks good to me. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> you know what, this does make a lot more sense now:
> 
> Earthquake Strike (Ex): A draknor can cause a minor, localized earthquake from the end of any of its tendrils as a standard action, once per round. This can affect all creatures in a 30-foot radius directly above the tendril, on the ground level. These targets will be knocked prone, and must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save of be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.




Rockin! 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> true… but taking away that Reflex save makes this a very deadly attack. The ranged touch attack would be at +13 to hit, and that’s a lot of fire damage with no saving throw. Is there any precedence for such a ray attack having a Reflex save for half?
> 
> Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may spew the heat it channels through its tendrils into a ruby-red ray. This ray comes from its mouth, and has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments, and the target takes 5d12 points of fire damage (Reflex DC X half). A draknor cannot strike itself with its own heat ray. The save DC is Constitution-based.




I believe there is precedence, but I can't find it.      Arrowhawks don't allow a save with their electricity rays.

And although it seems like alot of damage, consider what it could do instead with its melee attacks.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 25, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I believe there is precedence, but I can't find it.  Arrowhawks don't allow a save with their electricity rays.
> 
> And although it seems like alot of damage, consider what it could do instead with its melee attacks.




well, true… by comparison, a measly 5d12 points of fire damage is way less than what it could do with its melee weapons – and it would forego those weapons to use the ray anyway.  Consider the full attack line as I have it now:

Full Attack: 2 claws +23 melee (3d6+12) and 4 tentacles +18 melee (2d4+6) or heat ray +13 melee (5d12 fire)

So, how about this?  (removed the damage, since it is in the attack line already)

Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may spew the heat it channels through its tendrils into a ruby-red ray. This ray comes from its mouth, and has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments. A draknor cannot be struck with its own heat ray. The save DC is Constitution-based.


----------



## Knight Otu (Jan 25, 2005)

Well, since there is no save, you might want to remove the last sentence, but otherwise, looks good.


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2005)

Yeah, what he said.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 25, 2005)

guess this guy's powers were a lot easier to figure out than i thought.


----------



## Shade (Jan 25, 2005)

We just needed to step away from them for awhile and get a fresh perspective.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 26, 2005)

it has worked previously with other conversions (Eye and Hand anyone?)


----------



## Shade (Jan 26, 2005)

So is this fella ready for his Homebrews debut?


----------



## BOZ (Jan 27, 2005)

i've got different plans for this guy... (when i can actually find the time to make them happen, that is!)

in the meantime, to assuage your curiousity, here is what i have so far...

*Draknor*
Gargantuan Aberration (Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 22d8+110 (209 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 0 ft
Armor Class: 27 (-4 size, +21 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+39
Attack: X
Full Attack: 2 claws +23 melee (3d6+12) and 4 tentacles +18 melee (2d4+6) or heat ray +13 melee (5d12 fire)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft (60 ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: constrict, earthquake strike, heat ray, improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: damage reduction 5/epic, darkvision 60 ft, fire healing, immoveable, immune to mind-affecting effects, immunity to electricity and poison, reflect mind blast, resistance to acid X, spell resistance X, tendrils, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +12 Ref +7 Will +16
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: 100
Feats: 7

Environment: Elemental Plane of Earth or Elemental Plane of Fire
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 23-32 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---

A larval draknor is 55 feet wide, 40 feet long, and about 25 feet high, and weighs X tons.

COMBAT
An opponent can attack a draknor’s tentacles with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tentacles have 30 hit points each. If a draknor is currently grappling a target with the tentacle that is being attacked, it usually uses another limb to make its attack of opportunity against the opponent making the sunder attempt. Severing one of a draknor’s tentacles deals 15 points of damage to the creature.  A draknor usually withdraws from combat if it loses (X) tentacles.  The creature regrows severed limbs in (X) days.

Constrict (Ex): A draknor deals automatic tentacle damage with a successful grapple check.

Earthquake Strike (Ex): A draknor can cause a minor, localized earthquake from the end of any of its tendrils as a standard action, once per round.  This can affect all creatures in a 30-foot radius directly above the tendril, on the ground level.  These targets will be knocked prone if not secured, and must succeed on a DC 26 Fortitude save of be stunned for 1d4+1 rounds.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

Heat Ray (Ex): A draknor may spew the heat it channels through its tendrils into a ruby-red ray. This ray comes from its mouth, and has a maximum range of 200 feet with no range increments. A draknor cannot be struck with its own heat ray.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a draknor must hit with its claw or tentacle attack.  It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.  If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict if grappling with a tentacle.  If grappling with a claw or tentacle, the draknor can transfer the opponent to its mouth and attempt to swallow the foe in the following round.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A draknor can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check.  The swallowed creature takes X points of crushing damage plus X points of acid damage and X points of fire damage per round from the draknor’s gizzard.  A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal 50? points of damage to the draknor’s gut (AC 20).  Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.

Fire Healing (Su): Anything that would deal fire damage to a draknor instead heals 1 point of damage for each point of damage it would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the draknor to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. A draknor gets no saving throw against fire effects.

Immoveable (Ex): A draknor anchors itself to the cave walls of its lair using 12 rock-hard extensions.  This renders a draknor immune to bull rush and trip attacks.

Reflect Mind Blast (Su): If a draknor is hit by a mind blast ability, it can turn the mind blast back upon the creature attacking it.  Instead of a 60-foot cone, this attack manifests as a line that strikes only the creature that attacked with the mind blast.  The DC is the same as that of the creature that attacked with the mind blast.

Tendrils (Ex): A draknor has 30 tendrils that it uses to feed on heat sources.  These tendrils move independently of the draknor’s body, at a speed of 40 feet per round, and burrow through solid rock at a speed of 30 feet per round.  The ends of these tendrils can reach up to a mile away from the draknor’s main body.  If one or more of a draknor’s tendrils tap into a source of continual heat (such as magma), the draknor heals 3 points of damage per round (as fast healing).  A draknor does not benefit from its fast healing in any round in which it uses its heat ray.

An opponent can attack a draknor’s tendrils with a sunder attempt as if they were weapons. A draknor’s tendrils have 10 hit points each. Severing one of a draknor’s tendrils deals 5 points of damage to the creature.  If 10 or more of its tentacles are severed, its fast healing is reduced to 2 points per round, and if 20 or more are severed, it is reduced to 1 point per round. These tendrils do not grow back without magical healing, and if all the tendrils are severed, the draknor will die of starvation in two weeks.

Originally found in Dungeon Magazine #24 (“Thunder Under Needlespire,” Jul/Aug 1990, James Jacobs).


----------



## Shade (Jan 27, 2005)

Cool...thanks!

Shouldn't the heat ray be +11 ranged?

For attack line, I'd go with claw or tentacle or heat ray, as it will all depend on its adversary's distance at the time it makes the attack.

Suggested Skill Ranks:  Knowledge (dungeoneering) 20, Knowledge (the planes) 20, Listen 15, Search 20, Sense Motive 10, Spot 15.   (Since it is immobile and doesn't communicate with other creatures, it really can't benefit from most skills).

It should have 8 feats (it gets another at 21 HD).   Some suggestions to select from:

Awesome Blow, Epic Prowess, Epic Toughness, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (claw), Improved Sunder, Lightning Reflexes, Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (heat ray).


----------



## BOZ (Jan 27, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Shouldn't the heat ray be +11 ranged?




…I think so.  I must not have taken the change in Dex score into account.  Although with Weapon Focus, +12 might be more like it.  

I liked your skills and feats.  The following lines are now different:

Attack: Claw +24 melee (3d6+12/19-20) or tentacle +23 melee (2d4+6) or heat ray +12 melee (5d12 fire)
Full Attack: 2 claws +24 melee (3d6+12/19-20) and 4 tentacles +21 melee (2d4+6) or heat ray +12 melee (5d12 fire)
Saves: Fort +14 Ref +7 Will +16
Skills: Knowledge (dungeoneering) +22, Knowledge (the planes) +22, Listen +18, Search +22, Sense Motive +13, Spot +18
Feats: Awesome Blow, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (claw), Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (heat ray)


----------



## Shade (Jan 27, 2005)

Cool.  

Shouldn't the heat ray be a ranged attack rather than melee?   

Incorporating synergy bonuses and size modifiers...

Skills: Diplomacy +3, Hide -12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +22, Knowledge (the planes) +22, Listen +18, Search +22, Sense Motive +13, Spot +18, Survival +3 (+5 on other planes or underground, +5 following tracks)

Resistance to acid 20?

Spell resistance equal to CR + 11 or 12?

CR 18?


----------



## BOZ (Jan 27, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Shouldn't the heat ray be a ranged attack rather than melee?




NO.



> Incorporating synergy bonuses and size modifiers...




D'oh!  forgot that part...

well, here is the re-stat block...

*Draknor*
Gargantuan Aberration (Extraplanar, Fire)
Hit Dice: 22d8+110 (209 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 0 ft
Armor Class: 27 (-4 size, +21 natural), touch 6, flat-footed 27
Base Attack/Grapple: +15/+39
Attack: Claw +24 melee (3d6+12/19-20) or tentacle +23 melee (2d4+6) or heat ray +12 ranged (5d12 fire)
Full Attack: 2 claws +24 melee (3d6+12/19-20) and 4 tentacles +21 melee (2d4+6) or heat ray +12 ranged (5d12 fire)
Space/Reach: 20 ft/20 ft (60 ft with tentacles)
Special Attacks: Constrict 2d4+18, earthquake strike, heat ray, improved grab, swallow whole
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/epic, darkvision 60 ft, fire healing, immoveable, immune to mind-affecting effects, immunity to electricity and poison, reflect mind blast, resistance to acid 20, spell resistance 30, tendrils, vulnerability to cold
Saves: Fort +14 Ref +7 Will +16
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: Diplomacy +3, Hide -12, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +22, Knowledge (the planes) +22, Listen +18, Search +22, Sense Motive +13, Spot +18, Survival +3 (+5 on other planes or underground, +5 following tracks)
Feats: Awesome Blow, Great Fortitude, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (claw), Multiattack, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw), Weapon Focus (heat ray)

Environment: Elemental Plane of Earth or Elemental Plane of Fire
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 18
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 23-32 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: ---


----------



## Shade (Jan 27, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> NO.




Huh?

It's looking good otherwise.

Filling in the X's:

A draknor usually withdraws from combat if it loses (2?) tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in (1d6?) days.

Swallow Whole (Ex): A draknor can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes (2d8?) points of crushing damage plus (2d8?) points of acid damage and (2d8?) points of fire damage per round from the draknor’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal (50?) points of damage to the draknor’s gut (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.


----------



## Knight Otu (Jan 27, 2005)

Fun with heat rays! Shouldn't the heat ray be ranged *touch*?


----------



## BOZ (Jan 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Huh?




deadpan sarcasm, to cover my embarrassment over my mistake.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> A draknor usually withdraws from combat if it loses (2?) tentacles. The creature regrows severed limbs in (1d6?) days.




should we keep the “withdraws from combat” line anyway?  If it’s immobile, where would it go?  

1d6 days is fine – this fellow should heal pretty well with a high Con and its ability to draw sustenance and heal from flames.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Swallow Whole (Ex): A draknor can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of Huge or smaller size by making a successful grapple check. The swallowed creature takes (2d8?) points of crushing damage plus (2d8?) points of acid damage and (2d8?) points of fire damage per round from the draknor’s gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal (50?) points of damage to the draknor’s gut (AC 20). Once the creature exits, muscular action closes the hole; another swallowed opponent must cut its own way out.




here’s the line from the original text: “Swallowed PCs take 10-100 hp damage per round due to both acid and heat, and can escape only by doing 50 hp damage to the draknor's interior, which is AC 2.”

The minimum of 10 shouldn’t be a problem.  I would like to be able to achieve 100 points total with the crushing, acid, and fire.

For the tarrasque, crushing bonus damage is ½ Str bonus, so if we use that here it would be 6.  given your current values, the crushing would do a maximum of 22, and the acid and fire would have a max of 16 each.  That gets us about halfway there.  So there should be higher die ranges, and/or damage bonuses on each.

50 points of damage to get out is fine, as that was in the original text anyway.



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Fun with heat rays! Shouldn't the heat ray be ranged *touch*?




heh, well…  probably, yeah.  Now get to the other thread, you!


----------



## Knight Otu (Jan 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> heh, well…  probably, yeah.  Now get to the other thread, you!



Don't tell me, tell Shade.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 28, 2005)

he's a poopy head.  we've been doing just fine without him.  [/taunt]


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> deadpan sarcasm, to cover my embarrassment over my mistake.




Gotcha.  That was _very, very_ deadpan.     And Knight is right (isn't that an old adage?)...it should be ranged touch. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> should we keep the “withdraws from combat” line anyway? If it’s immobile, where would it go?




An excellent observation.  We should be able to ditch that statement.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> 1d6 days is fine – this fellow should heal pretty well with a high Con and its ability to draw sustenance and heal from flames.




My thoughts exactly.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> here’s the line from the original text: “Swallowed PCs take 10-100 hp damage per round due to both acid and heat, and can escape only by doing 50 hp damage to the draknor's interior, which is AC 2.”
> 
> The minimum of 10 shouldn’t be a problem. I would like to be able to achieve 100 points total with the crushing, acid, and fire.
> 
> ...




How would these numbers work out?:  crushing 4d6+6, acid 4d8, fire 4d8...that gives us a range of 18-102. 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> he's a poopy head. we've been doing just fine without him. [/taunt]




That's "Mr. Poppy head" to you.     You guys have been doing fine work without me.  I've actually got a project of my own that I've been scrambling to complete, hence my limited posting of late.  My ol' buddy Draknor called in a few favors.


----------



## BOZ (Jan 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Gotcha. That was very, very deadpan.




the excessiveness should have been a dead giveaway.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> And Knight is right (isn't that an old adage?)...it should be ranged touch.




see the last time I posted the stat block… 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> How would these numbers work out?: crushing 4d6+6, acid 4d8, fire 4d8...that gives us a range of 18-102.




perfecto!



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> That's "Mr. Poppy head" to you.  You guys have been doing fine work without me. I've actually got a project of my own that I've been scrambling to complete, hence my limited posting of late. My ol' buddy Draknor called in a few favors.




oh…?


----------



## Shade (Jan 28, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the excessiveness should have been a dead giveaway.




Yeah, I must've been distracted by something shiny.   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> see the last time I posted the stat block…




I still see just _ranged_ not _ranged touch_, unless I'm lookin' in the wrong place.   Or is this more of your brilliant deadpan humor?   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> perfecto!




Sweet!  This guy should be about done, then.  I guess we can't post it in Homebrews, or it will violated Dragon's "nothing already posted" rule, eh? 



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> oh…?




"Oh?" to which part...the fact that I demand the "Mr.", the fact that I have a project, or the fact that draknor called in a favor?


----------



## BOZ (Jan 28, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> I still see just _ranged_ not _ranged touch_, unless I'm lookin' in the wrong place.   Or is this more of your brilliant deadpan humor?




let's call it brilliant and move on.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Sweet!  This guy should be about done, then.  I guess we can't post it in Homebrews, or it will violated Dragon's "nothing already posted" rule, eh?




i was thinking that posting it in homebrews might be a bad idea.  i will create a separate thread for completed conversions for the article, which will be a "throwaway" that i will delete when it is completed.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> "Oh?" to which part...the fact that I demand the "Mr.", the fact that I have a project, or the fact that draknor called in a favor?




the first one should be expected, the second i'm unsure of, and the third i'm clueless on.


----------



## Shade (Jan 31, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> let's call it brilliant and move on.




Brilliant!  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i was thinking that posting it in homebrews might be a bad idea. i will create a separate thread for completed conversions for the article, which will be a "throwaway" that i will delete when it is completed.




Brilliant!   



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the first one should be expected, the second i'm unsure of, and the third i'm clueless on.




Brilliant!


----------



## BOZ (Jan 31, 2005)

you still didn't tell me about your oh-so-special project, or draknor's "favors"


----------



## Shade (Jan 31, 2005)

NDA...on both counts!


----------



## BOZ (Jan 31, 2005)

ooh, why you dirty --!   well then, dish the details when you can!


----------



## Shade (Apr 7, 2005)

I'd like to request that we convert "Demon" from Dungeon #14 when an opportunity arises.  It is not actually a demon, but is an extraplanar creature with very powerful spell-like abilities, poisonous saliva, acidic sweat, regeneration, numerous immunities, and great spell resistance.  I've got the original issue.


----------



## BOZ (Apr 7, 2005)

ok.  got a lot going on at the moment, might want to cut back a bit, but keep me appraised of this one.


----------



## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

Keeping BOZ abreast.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 4, 2005)

hey, that's dirty!


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2005)

We gotta do this conversion...he's got acidic sweat!   He needs something ph-balanced that's strong enough for a demon, but gentle enough for a demoness.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2005)

Here's the original writeup for when you are ready.    

The "demon" is a humanoid figure about 6' tall, with a broad and very muscular physique.  It is totally hairless, and its skin is gray with an almost metallic sheen.  Its four-fingered hands show wickedly curved claws, frighteningly sharp.  Its head is smaller in proportion to its body than a human's, and is set on a short, thick neck.  The creature has no external ears or nose; its two large nostrils are set into its broad  face just above a wide, fanged mouth.  Its red eyes are small and protected by circular ridges of bone.  When it exerts itself, it sweats; after its climb, its body glistens with moisture.  This perspiration is strongly acidic, doing 1-4 hp damge to flesh that comes in contact with it.  The creature's sweat has a bitter reek, which might be the first warning the PCs have of its presence.

"Demon":  AC -2; MV 12" (8" on rock face); HD 14; hp 80; #AT 3; Dmg 2-12+4/2-12+4/1-20; SA major magic use, poisonous saliva, acidic sweat, strength bonus of +2 to hit; SD hit only by magical weapons, regenerates 3 hp per round starting on third round after damage occurs, numerous immunities (to sleep, suggestion, hypnotism, charm, hold, paralyzation, all fire-based spells, acid, poison, normal fire, and psionic attack), 70% magic resistance; AL NE.

The creature attacks with a claw/claw/bite routine.  As its physique indicates, it is very strong (18/76), giving it a bonus of +2 "to hit" and +4 to damage (this damage bonus does not apply to the creature's bite).  Like its sweat, the creature's saliva is acidic and highly toxic.  A victim of its bite must save vs. poison or take an additional 3-24 hp damage.

The creature has a daunting number of magical abilities, each similar to the spell of the same name and cast at the 25th level of ability.  It can use the following spell-like powers once per round:  feather fall, magic missle (13 missles), fumble, gust of wind, heat metal, slow, and shatter.  It can use the following spell-like powers twice per turn:  jump, fireball, delayed blast fireball, confusion, shocking grasp, and blindness.  It can use the following spell-like powers once per day: fire storm, wall of ice, earthquake, tongues, suggestion, reverse gravity, and power word stun.  All of these abilities can be used instantly with no casting time, preparation, or continued concentration required.  The creature is highly intelligent and uses its abilities to their best effects, often combining powers in damaging "one-two punches"--for example, casting both heat metal and slow spells on an armor-clad opponent, or casting confusion and blindness spells on characters who are trying to climb the rock face.  A DM with a nasty streak can, no doubt, devise equally potent combinations.  The creature is susceptible to falling damage and crushing damage from an avalanche (should it use its earthquake power), but it sustains only half normal damage in this event (save vs. wands for one-quarter damage).

Although the creature can regenerate 3 hp damage per round starting on the third round after the damage occurred, once it is dead (-10 hp) it is dead.  It does not revive like a troll, although severed limbs will crawl back to rejoin the still-lving creature.

The creature's thoughts are so alien that ESP or telepathy have only a limited chance of contacting the creature's mind (taking into account its magic resistance and saving throws).  However, a successful connection opens the caster's mind to such a welter of alien thoughts and emotions that he is confused for 2-9 rounds (save vs. spells for half duration).  The creature's senses are supernaturally acute; it can hear noise (as the thief ability) on a 7 or 8 chance, has infra- and ultravision of 120' range, and can automatically detect invisible objects and characters.  Even if blinded (by a darkness spell, for example), its other senses compensate enough so that its penalty in combat is only -1 (rather than the normal -4).

Despite its  magical abilities, and despite what the villagers believe, the creature is not a demon nor any other denizen of the Outer Planes.  Thus, it is unaffected by holy water or clerical turning.  The banishment effect of a holy word, however, will send the creature back to its home, since it is a being from an alternate Prime Material Plane (as is Simon Weems).

On its home plane, the creature is an example of the dominant life form, a thoroughly evil race dedicated to the destruction of all "lower" forms of life.  Although it arrived on this plane by accident, it is quite pleased by its surroundings.  The rugged mountains remind it of its home world, and the life forms it has seen - the villagers and the PCs - seem ideal targets for its evil intentions.  Unlike Weems, it has no desire to return to its home.  Instead, it is already considering ways to inflict destruction on the greatest possible scale.  The creature cares nothing for torture or spreading terror - it merely wishes to destroy all life.

Combat with the creature will probably take place on and around the ledge it has chosen.  If it has the chance, it will ambush the PCs as they climb up from below, raking them with magic missles and delayed blast fireballs.  Any flying PC who is unaware of the creature's presence is likely to be greeted by a salvo of magic missles as he clears the lip of the ledge.

<snipped info about the specific ledge in the adventure>

The creature is intelligent enough to know when a fight is going against it.  If it is unable to flee, it uses its tongues and suggestion abilities to bargain for its life.  It offers the PCs great wealth and even greater knowlege, claiming all sorts of wondrous powers and abilities (none of which it possesses).  As its behavior indicates, however, it is a treacherous creature and won't abide by any deal it makes.  As soon as it senses an opportunity, it turns on the PCs and slays them or makes its escape.

<the next part is from Concluding the Adventure>

If the creature still lives, it keeps a low profile for several weeks while it learns more about its new surroundings.  Then its predator's nature and joy in destruction reassert themselves.  First, the creature falls upon the village of Havenmere and ravages it, then it terrorizes travelers passing through Thunder Gap.  Afterward, it ranges eastward toward Highmoon and Deepingdale.  Unless the monster is slain, the villages and towns of Sembia soon begin to feel its depradations.

From Dungeon #14, page 17, Nov/Dec 1988, "A Question of Balance", Nigel D. Findley.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

<gets in line behind wild halfings, starts to sweat acridly>


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## BOZ (Oct 12, 2005)

you nasty!  

let's finish up a conversion or two, then i will release his chains.


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## Shade (Oct 12, 2005)

No worries.  The backburner was getting kinda hot, so he decided to move forward.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

<grows angry at those dhours and tweens cutting in line>


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

heh, ok... what are you thinking with this one?  Monstrous Humanoid (extraplanar)?


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Yeah, that sounds about right, since the text seemed to specifically state "this is not an outsider".


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

some preliminary stats for the "demon":

*The Creature ("Demon")*
Medium Monstrous Humanoid (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 14d8+X (X hp)
Initiative: +X
Speed: 30 ft (6 squares), climb 20 ft
Armor Class: 22 (+X Dex, +X natural), touch X, flat-footed X
Base Attack/Grapple: +14/+19
Attack: Claw +19 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +19 melee (2d6+5) and bite +14 melee (2d8+2)
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Attacks: major magic use, poisonous saliva, acidic sweat
Special Qualities: damage reduction X/X, darkvision 60 ft, fast healing 3,  immunity to acid, fire, mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, and sleep, spell resistance X 
Saves: Fort +X, Ref +X, Will +X
Abilities: Str 21, Dex X, Con X, Int X, Wis X, Cha X
Skills: X Climb
Feats: 5

Environment: X
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: Neutral evil
Advancement: ---
Level Adjustment: ---

The creature is 6 feet tall and weighs about X pounds.

COMBAT


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Rereading the text, it seems that the creature isn't particularly intelligent, but is extremely cunning.  I'd imagine with its vast arrays of spell-like abilities it would have a decent Charisma, and it probably has a high Con score based on its resilience.

Comparing it to demons and devils of similar HD...

Str 21, Dex 10-14, Con 23-30, Int 12-22, Wis 14-22, Cha 18-20

...I'm thinking...

Str 21, Dex 11, Con 26, Int 13, Wis 19, Cha 20


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

just remember - it's not a demon or a devil.  

but those ablity scores seem fine for something so tough.  maybe the Con is a bit high though.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Yeah, yeah...it's not the mushrooms talkin' this time.  I just figured they were the most comparable creatures.    

Knock the Con down to 23-24 if you'd prefer.


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## BOZ (Oct 17, 2005)

i do feel more comfortable with 24.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Cool.  



> When it exerts itself, it sweats; after its climb, its body glistens with moisture. This perspiration is strongly acidic, doing 1-4 hp damge to flesh that comes in contact with it. The creature's sweat has a bitter reek, which might be the first warning the PCs have of its presence.




Do we want to define "exertion", or simply have it always laced in sweat?



> Like its sweat, the creature's saliva is acidic and highly toxic. A victim of its bite must save vs. poison or take an additional 3-24 hp damage.




Acidic Saliva (Ex):  The "demon"'s bite is extremely acidic and highly toxic.  Anyone bitten by the "demon" must make a DC X Fortitude save or take an additional 3d8 points of acid damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.



> The creature's thoughts are so alien that ESP or telepathy have only a limited chance of contacting the creature's mind (taking into account its magic resistance and saving throws). However, a successful connection opens the caster's mind to such a welter of alien thoughts and emotions that he is confused for 2-9 rounds (save vs. spells for half duration).




I'm pretty sure there are other creatures with a similar ability...



> The creature's senses are supernaturally acute; it can hear noise (as the thief ability) on a 7 or 8 chance, has infra- and ultravision of 120' range, and can automatically detect invisible objects and characters. Even if blinded (by a darkness spell, for example), its other senses compensate enough so that its penalty in combat is only -1 (rather than the normal -4).




Racial bonus on Listen checks?   Blind-Fight as bonus feat?  Blindsight, blindsense, or see invisibility?


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to define "exertion", or simply have it always laced in sweat?




You know, maybe the basic idea behind this ability helps (the underlined portions might apply to this creature):


> Stench (Ex): A XXX that performs a stressful activity, such as combat or carrying a heavy load for at least two rounds, exudes a horrid stench in a 30 foot radius. Anyone within the radius of the stench, except the XXX itself, must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the XXX's racial HD [usually +2] + the XXX's Constitution modifier [usually +3]), or be nauseated for 2d4 rounds. The stench usually lingers for the duration of the stressful activity, and for a number of rounds equal to the XXX's Constitution modifier after the activity ended, but strong winds can disperse it earlier. A character that successfully saves against the stench is immune to that particular XXX's stench for 24 hours.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> You know, maybe the basic idea behind this ability helps (the underlined portions might apply to this creature):




Excellent!   Where'd you find that?


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## Knight Otu (Oct 17, 2005)

I made it for something quite different. I don't think any official source has something similar.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2005)

Well, it works perfectly.

Caustic Sweat (Ex): A "demon" that performs a stressful activity, such as combat or carrying a heavy load for at least two rounds, begins to sweat.  This perspiration is strongly acidic, dealing 1d4 points of acid damage to any creature that touches the "demon" with a natural attack or unarmed strike.  The "demon" also deals this acid damage each round to a grappled opponent. The sweat usually lingers for the duration of the stressful activity, and for a number of rounds equal to the "demon"'s Constitution modifier after the activity ended. 

The creature's sweat has a bitter reek, and is considered an overpowering scent, meaning the "demon" can be detected at triple normal range by creature's with the scent ability.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

i promise to respond eventually - i just overextended myself by starting too many at once.


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

> The creature has a daunting number of magical abilities, each similar to the spell of the same name and cast at the 25th level of ability. It can use the following spell-like powers once per round: feather fall, magic missle (13 missles), fumble, gust of wind, heat metal, slow, and shatter. It can use the following spell-like powers twice per turn: jump, fireball, delayed blast fireball, confusion, shocking grasp, and blindness. It can use the following spell-like powers once per day: fire storm, wall of ice, earthquake, tongues, suggestion, reverse gravity, and power word stun. All of these abilities can be used instantly with no casting time, preparation, or continued concentration required.




Spell-Like Abilities:  At will--feather fall, gust of wind (DC 17), heat metal (DC 17), magic missle, shatter (DC 17), slow (DC 18);  X/day--blindness/deafness (DC 17), confusion (DC 19), fireball (DC 18), delayed blast fireball (DC 22), jump, shocking grasp;  1/day--earthquake (DC 23), fire storm (DC 23), power word stun, reverse gravity (DC 22), suggestion (DC 18), tongues, wall of ice (DC 19).  Caster level 25th.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Fumble has no 3E counterpart.  I converted it awhile back for the monsters from videogames thread.  I'll see if I can dig it up.

Magic missle normally caps at 5 missles.  Do we want to allow it more, or just stick with the spell as normal?



> The creature is susceptible to falling damage and crushing damage from an avalanche (should it use its earthquake power), but it sustains only half normal damage in this event (save vs. wands for one-quarter damage).




Should this be a special ability?


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Magic missle normally caps at 5 missles.  Do we want to allow it more, or just stick with the spell as normal?




wasn't there a class or SA that did a "twin spell" effect?  that would give him 10 at least...



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Should this be a special ability?




would DR/bludgeoning handle that?


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Twin Spell is a feat from Complete Arcane and some earlier sources.   We could writeup magic missle as a separate ability and use some of its text, if necessary.

DR/bludgeoning should work elegantly.


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## Knight Otu (Oct 18, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> DR/bludgeoning should work elegantly.



Mayhaps I'm thinking wardbacks again today, but DR/bludgeoning means it takes less damage from anything, except bludgeoning, while the text seems to imply it takes less damage from bludgeoning only...?


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

No, you are absolutely correct.  It should be DR/slashing or piercing.  D'oh!    

While you're here, let me pick your brain...



> The creature's thoughts are so alien that ESP or telepathy have only a limited chance of contacting the creature's mind (taking into account its magic resistance and saving throws). However, a successful connection opens the caster's mind to such a welter of alien thoughts and emotions that he is confused for 2-9 rounds (save vs. spells for half duration).




I swear I've seen a creature with a similar ability, but scouring Lords of Madness, all the Far Realms creatures I can find, and things like the keeper and chaos beast, I've had no luck.  Any ideas what other critters might have this ability?


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## Knight Otu (Oct 18, 2005)

Try the MMII, perhaps (mine's still borrowed away)? I'll check the FF.


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## Knight Otu (Oct 18, 2005)

Exhibit A: Phiuhl, FF p135-6.


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Thanks again, *Lord * Otu.


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> Twin Spell is a feat from Complete Arcane and some earlier sources.   We could writeup magic missle as a separate ability and use some of its text, if necessary.




works for me!  



			
				Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Mayhaps I'm thinking wardbacks again today, but DR/bludgeoning means it takes less damage from anything, except bludgeoning, while the text seems to imply it takes less damage from bludgeoning only...?




that's not the first time you caught me goofing DR up...


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## Shade (Oct 18, 2005)

Borrowing from the phiul...

Inscrutable Mind (Ex): Any creature attempting to establish a telepathic link to the creature's mind (via detect thoughts, a psionic ability, dominate monster, and so on) must make a Will save (DC X) or suffer the effects of feeblemind as cast by a 9th-level sorcerer. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Should we change feeblemind to confusion?

Barrage of Magic Missles (Sp):  At will, the creature may use magic missle (caster level 25th), except the spell take effects twice on the same target simultaneously. The affected creature recieves the effects of each spell individually (requiring two separate caster level checks to beat the target's spell resistance).


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## BOZ (Oct 18, 2005)

i like confusion better, personally.  or insanity.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

OK, revising...

Inscrutable Mind (Ex): Any creature attempting to establish a telepathic link to the creature's mind (via detect thoughts, a psionic ability, dominate monster, and so on) must make a Will save (DC X) or suffer the effects of confusion as cast by a Xth-level sorcerer. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

looks good.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

Since MR was 70%, its CR should be 15 + CR.

Suggested Skill Ranks:  Balance 7, Climb 7, Concentration 7, Jump 7, Listen 9, Spot 7, Survival 7

Suggested Feats:  Blind-Fight (B), Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Climb), Track

+4 racial bonus on Listen checks?

Skills: The creature has a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened.  *It has a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks when tracking by scent.


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## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

Shade said:
			
		

> its CR should be 15 + CR.




you sure about that?


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

Well, by the conversion guide he'd have 70/5 + 11 = 25 if you want to go that route instead.
I've found that with the high-CR critters it works better to extrapolate from the CR + 11 = 50% chance guideline, by adding 1 for each 5% they had originally.  It's not perfect, but seems to work so far.  <shrugs>


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## BOZ (Oct 19, 2005)

read what i posted again.    slowly.


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2005)

Ahh...I was doing funny math!    

*SR * = CR + 15, then.


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## BOZ (Oct 24, 2005)

figured you might want to see it in homebrews... so there it is.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

Sweet, thanks!

First off, I think we should rename it The Creature of Havenmere ("Demon")

DR 10/X?

Environment:  Unknown Alternate Material Plane?

Assuming those skill ranks...

Balance +7, Climb +23, Concentration +14, Jump +12, Listen +17, Spot +11, Survival +11

Add these from earlier:

Acidic Saliva (Ex): The "demon"'s bite is extremely acidic and highly toxic. Anyone bitten by the "demon" must make a DC 24 Fortitude save or take an additional 3d8 points of acid damage. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Caustic Sweat (Ex): A "demon" that performs a stressful activity, such as combat or carrying a heavy load for at least two rounds, begins to sweat. This perspiration is strongly acidic, dealing 1d4 points of acid damage to any creature that touches the "demon" with a natural attack or unarmed strike. The "demon" also deals this acid damage each round to a grappled opponent. The sweat usually lingers for the duration of the stressful activity, and for a number of rounds equal to the "demon"'s Constitution modifier after the activity ended. 

The creature's sweat has a bitter reek, and is considered an overpowering scent, meaning the "demon" can be detected at triple normal range by creature's with the scent ability.


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

damage reduction 10/magic and piercing or slashing?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Environment: Unknown Alternate Material Plane?




i thought 3E got rid of the idea of alternate MPs?  as in, there is only one MP with many worlds.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

BOZ said:
			
		

> damage reduction 10/magic and piercing or slashing?




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> i thought 3E got rid of the idea of alternate MPs?  as in, there is only one MP with many worlds.




Oh no, not at all.  In fact, looking at the MOTP, it refers to "a Material Plane" rather than "the Material Plane" in many places.  Several adventures have featured alternate Material Planes as well (the Harrowing is one, off the top of my head).


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

unknown alternate material plane then?


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

Brilliant!


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

just thinking on my feet.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

Inscrutable Mind DC should be 22.  As 14th-level sorcerer?

Remove normal magic missle from SLAs, since we've got a separate ability now.

CR 13 or 14?   It seems as good as, if not slightly better than a glabrezu, but not necessarily up to nalfeshnee power.


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

i'm usually conservative, but we can go 14 if you like that better.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

It's the barrage of magic missles that pushes it over the edge for me.  What do you think?


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

it's pretty powerful, especially since he can use it as a standard action.  that would be enough to increase its CR by 1 i think.

one thing i noticed about that ability, it seems to limit this to all the missiles hitting a single target; since this is different than how the spell works, is this what you wanted?


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

I'm not sure why I put in that limitation.  I just reread the original text, and it simply said "13 missles".


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## BOZ (Oct 25, 2005)

we can fix that.


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## Shade (Oct 25, 2005)

_This humanoid entity is broad and muscular, with hairless gray skin with a nearly metallic sheen.  Its head is disproportinally small in comparison to its body, set on a short, thick neck.  Its broad face boast no ears, while two large nostrils are all it has for a nose.  Circular, bonelike ridges protect its red eyes.  Its mighty arms end in four-fingered hands with wickedly curved claws.  A glistening sheen of sweat coats its body, and a bitter reek accompanies its presence._

Tactics

The creature is a cunning combatant, using terrain and its abilities to great effect.  It often combines its powers to greater impact, such as using heat metal on an opponent's armor followed by slow to increase its torment.  It prefers to fight from higher ground, often climbing sheer cliff faces and peppering its opponents with a barrage of magic missles.  If battle swings in favor of the opposition, the creature uses its tongues and suggestion abilities to save its hide, and will offer riches and powers it cannot actually provide in exchange for its freedom.


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

nice.    i can tell you've really been liking this guy.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

Yeah, I think I've got a use for him.   Heavily advanced, of course.


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

heheh.  need anything besides his background text?


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

I think that's it.  I'll give him another lookover.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

The Creature of Havenmere is a member of an evil race of monstrous humanoids from an alternate Material Plane.  These beings live only to destroy all life other than themselves.  On its homeworld, a place of jagged mountains and deadly precipices, its race is the dominant species.

Trapped on this Material Plane by an unusual storm, the creature has quickly resumed its modus operandi, finding the local villagers to be perfect targets for its destructive urges.  Unlike many evil beings, the Creature does not enjoy intimidation, torture, or toying with its prey; it is only concerned with snuffing out life in the most expedient manner.

Because of its otherworldly appearance, destructive nature, and array of spell-like abilities, the local villagers who have seen the Creature believe it to be a form of demon.  

Although its arrival on this Material Plane was accidental, the Creature has quickly adapted to these new hunting grounds and is in no hurry to return to its home plane.  Its goals are simple:  eradicate all life in the immediate vicinity, then move on to richer hunting grounds.


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

updating.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

The X/day spell-like abilities were previously 2/turn, which was twice per 10 minutes.  Maybe make them 5/day?

Init should be +4 (due to Imp Init).

Environment: Alternate Material Plane
Challenge Rating: 14
Treasure: None

spell resistance 29

Weight 300 pounds


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## BOZ (Oct 26, 2005)

updating again.


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## Shade (Oct 26, 2005)

I think the Creature should only speak the alien language of his race.  He can use his tongues ability to speak when necessary.  This seemed to be the intent of the original writeup.

After that, he looks finished.  There are some other great critters in the old Dungeons which I'll type up when we're ready to revisit this thread again.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

Working from the same issue, I'd like to tackle the following as time permits:

Black Golem
Greater Black Golem
Conjurer Puppet
Stun Puppet
Ventriloquist Puppet

Plus, there's a wood golem in there that might be related to the one queued up in the Overhaul thread.


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## BOZ (Nov 10, 2005)

i doubt that they're related.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2005)

I just compared them and they do indeed appear to be different.  There isn't much to the Dungeon ones...just a tiny stat block and brief description.


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## BOZ (Jul 24, 2006)

here's a request from Shade, from issue #14:

Black Golem 

Only an evil magic-user of 18th or higher level can use the libram to build the single greater construct detailed in the work:  a black golem.  This entails three months' research and enchantments, and requires a perfectly crafted iron figure topped with the skull of a lich.  Enchant an item, wish, and permanency spells are required for the manufacture of the golem.  Special powers are instilled by the use of further spells.  Gate and permanency spells are combined to create the open channel to the Negative Material Plane that gives the construct its ability to drain energy (one level) by blow.  Two gems of seeing are fitted into its eye sockets, giving the golem the ability to see hidden, invisible, out of phase, astral, and ethereal objects or creatures.  A protection from normal missiles spell and a limited wish are employed to give the creature immunity to all nonmagical weapons.  Use of both variations of the fire shield spell gives the creature resistance to both fire and cold attacks.  Finally, a combo of darkness 15' radius and phantasmal force, and slow spells give the golem its terrifying appearance, shrouded in a dark, shadowy penumbra in which wraiths and spectres appear to flit about it (it is possible to see the golem, but indistinctly).

Any creature approaching within 15' of the golem must save vs. spells or be slowed for 22 rounds.  Attacks against it are made at -2 to hit in addition to other penalties.  Armed with a huge two-handed sword which does fearful damage in addition to the energy drain, the black golem is a powerful guard for any evil magician's lair.  While it is technically unintelligent, the balck golem can follow quite complex instructions from its creator, making it a dreadful nemesis if so commanded.

It is whispered that a magic-user of 21st level or above with a minimum Intelligence score of 19 can use the libram of constructs to create a still more powerful form of the black golem, a semisentient construct which can create juju zombies and other undead, commanding them in the service of the mage who created it.  This nightmare creation can charm person by gaze and has other powers which hardly bear contemplation.

Black golem:  AC -1; Mv 9"; HD 12; #AT 1; Dmg 2-20; SA energy drain, slowing; SD magical weapons to hit, saves at +2 against fire- and cold-based attacks (taking half or no damage), detects hidden/invisible/out-of-phase objects and creatures, immune to mind-influencing spells, -2 to be hit; AL NE.


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## Shade (Jul 24, 2006)

Sweeeeet.

Here's the conversion I did awhile back.  We can probably salvage something from it.  My players enjoyed the battle.    

Black Golem
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 12d10+30 (96 hp)
Initiative: -1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: 23 (–1 size, -1 Dex, +13 natural, +2 deflection), touch 11, flat-footed 23
Base Attack/Grapple: +9/+21
Attack: Slam +16 melee (2d10+12 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: 2 slams +16 melee (2d10+12 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain, slow aura
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, immunity to magic, low-light vision, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10, true seeing
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +4
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 9, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 11
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 13–24 HD (Large); 25–36 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -


This perfectly crafted iron figure is twice the height of a normal human. Its head is a humanoid skull, with empty eye sockets that flicker with an unnerving crimson light. The being is shrouded in shadows, swirling with wraithlike spirits.

This golem has a humanoid body made from iron, and bears the skull of a lich as its head.

A black golem can be fashioned in any manner, just like a black golem. Its features are much smoother than those of a stone golem. Black golems sometimes carry a greatsword in both hands.

A black golem is 12 feet tall and weighs about 3,000 pounds.

A black golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise, nor does it have any distinguishable odor. It moves with a ponderous but smooth gait. Each step causes the floor to tremble unless it is on a thick, solid foundation.

Golems (Overview)

Combat
Black golems are deadly foes, combining the worst aspects of constructs and undead.

Cloak of Shadows (Su): A black golem is continuously surrounded by a darkness effect (caster level 18th).

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a black golem's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 16 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the black golem gains 5 temporary hit points.

Slow (Su): A black golem can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 7 rounds, requiring a DC 16 Will save to negate. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A black golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals positive energy damage (such as a cure spell) slows a black golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals negative energy damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a black golem hit by a inflict moderate wounds gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. A black golem gets no saving throw against negative energy effects.

A black golem is unaffected by rust attacks, despite its iron body.

True Seeing (Su): Black golems continuously use true seeing as the spell (caster level 18th).

Construction
The secrets to creating a black golem are found in the Libram of Constructs, an evil tome thats origins can be traced to the Nine Hells of Baator. Rumor has it that the book always finds its way into the hands of a powerful lawful evil wizard, as a reward for services to the baatezu.

A black golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp, and topped with the skull of a lich. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, deeper darkness, gate, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, slow, true seeing, caster must be at least 18th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.


Greater Black Golem
Huge Construct
Hit Dice: 36d10+40 (238 hp)
Initiative: -2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: 25 (–1 size, -2 Dex, +16 natural, +2 deflection), touch 9, flat-footed 25
Base Attack/Grapple: +27/+47
Attack: Slam +37 melee (4d8+18 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: 2 slams +37 melee (4d8+18 plus energy drain)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Energy drain, slow aura
Special Qualities: Construct traits, damage reduction 10/adamantine, immunity to magic, low-light vision, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10, true seeing
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +12
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 7, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or gang (2-4)
Challenge Rating: 19
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral evil
Advancement: 13–24 HD (Large); 25–36 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment: -


This perfectly crafted iron figure is twice the height of a normal human. Its head is a humanoid skull, with empty eye sockets that flicker with an unnerving crimson light. The being is shrouded in shadows, swirling with wraithlike spirits.

This golem has a humanoid body made from iron, and bears the skull of a lich as its head.

A black golem can be fashioned in any manner, just like a black golem. Its features are much smoother than those of a stone golem. Black golems sometimes carry a greatsword in both hands.

A black golem is 12 feet tall and weighs about 3,000 pounds.

A black golem cannot speak or make any vocal noise, nor does it have any distinguishable odor. It moves with a ponderous but smooth gait. Each step causes the floor to tremble unless it is on a thick, solid foundation.

Golems (Overview)

Combat
Black golems are deadly foes, combining the worst aspects of constructs and undead.

Cloak of Shadows (Su): A black golem is continuously surrounded by a darkness effect (caster level 18th).

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a black golem's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 28 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the black golem gains 5 temporary hit points.

Slow (Su): A black golem can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 7 rounds, requiring a DC 28 Will save to negate. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A black golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals positive energy damage (such as a cure spell) slows a black golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals negative energy damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a black golem hit by a inflict moderate wounds gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. A black golem gets no saving throw against negative energy effects.

A black golem is unaffected by rust attacks, despite its iron body.

True Seeing (Su): Black golems continuously use true seeing as the spell (caster level 18th).

Construction
The secrets to creating a black golem are found in the Libram of Constructs, an evil tome thats origins can be traced to the Nine Hells of Baator. Rumor has it that the book always finds its way into the hands of a powerful lawful evil wizard, as a reward for services to the baatezu.

A black golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp, and topped with the skull of a lich. Assembling the body requires a DC 20 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 20 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 16th; Craft Construct, deeper darkness, gate, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, slow, true seeing, caster must be at least 18th level; Price 150,000 gp; Cost 80,000 gp + 5,600 XP.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 24, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> A black golem can be fashioned in any manner, just like a black golem.




really?


----------



## Shade (Jul 24, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> really?




But of course.  Isn't that zen?    

I'm guessing that I meant "stone", but that was awhile ago...March 2004!  For any of you who might think being part of the CC grants your requests greater attention, I'd say this should alleviate those fears.


----------



## BOZ (Jul 27, 2006)

OK, finally found some time to look at this here feller.  

the creature is not overly complex, and fairly straightforward.  For the most part, we can just keep Shade's work.  I don't know how long ago the conversion was done, but in my experience the older the conversion is, the more work will likely have to be done to get it right.  

A few things I would draw attention to:

Creatures that had a movement rate of 9 I normally translate into 20 ft.  they were slower than 12, which is now 30 ft, so I usually like to keep them at the slower movement rate.  9 x 2.5 = 22, which could be rounded up to 30, but I prefer 20.

Should it gain temporary hp from the energy drain?  Not all creatures with energy drain attacks do, IIRC.



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> Two gems of seeing are fitted into its eye sockets, giving the golem the ability to see hidden, invisible, out of phase, astral, and ethereal objects or creatures.




I would make note of the gem-eyes as that is interesting and flavorful. 



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> A protection from normal missiles spell and a limited wish are employed to give the creature immunity to all nonmagical weapons.




I don't think that is being used?



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> Any creature approaching within 15' of the golem must save vs. spells or be slowed for 22 rounds.




Did that really say 22 rounds or was that a typo?  



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> Attacks against it are made at -2 to hit in addition to other penalties.




I'm assuming that's where the deflection bonus came from?  



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> Armed with a huge two-handed sword which does fearful damage in addition to the energy drain, the black golem is a powerful guard for any evil magician's lair.




This is not reflected on the attack lines.



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> It is whispered that a magic-user of 21st level or above with a minimum Intelligence score of 19 can use the libram of constructs to create a still more powerful form of the black golem, a semisentient construct which can create juju zombies and other undead, commanding them in the service of the mage who created it.  This nightmare creation can charm person by gaze and has other powers which hardly bear contemplation.




These attributes are not reflected in the writeup.  In fact, it looks like the flavor text is mostly copied and pasted with little editing.    we'll fix that - muahahahhahahahahha!


----------



## Shade (Jul 27, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> the creature is not overly complex, and fairly straightforward.  For the most part, we can just keep Shade's work.  I don't know how long ago the conversion was done, but in my experience the older the conversion is, the more work will likely have to be done to get it right.




March 2004...so get ready to work!    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Creatures that had a movement rate of 9 I normally translate into 20 ft.  they were slower than 12, which is now 30 ft, so I usually like to keep them at the slower movement rate.  9 x 2.5 = 22, which could be rounded up to 30, but I prefer 20.




Sounds good.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Should it gain temporary hp from the energy drain?  Not all creatures with energy drain attacks do, IIRC.




The overview of energy drain states:  "Unless otherwise specified in the creature’s description, a draining creature gains 5 temporary hit points (10 on a critical hit) for each negative level it bestows on an opponent. These temporary hit points last for a maximum of 1 hour."

I think the temp hp could be kinda cool...similar to fire effects healing an iron golem or electricity healing a flesh golem.  I can live without it, though.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I would make note of the gem-eyes as that is interesting and flavorful.




Indeed!  I think I didn't since it was just for my own personal use at the time.  



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I don't think that is being used?




Hmmm...DR/magic and adamantine?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> Did that really say 22 rounds or was that a typo?




Really did, but could've been a typo.  It was probably a function of the presumed caster level back then or something.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> I'm assuming that's where the deflection bonus came from?




If memory serves, yep.



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> This is not reflected on the attack lines.




Oops...apparently not!



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> These attributes are not reflected in the writeup.  In fact, it looks like the flavor text is mostly copied and pasted with little editing.    we'll fix that - muahahahhahahahahha!




Fix 'er up.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Jul 28, 2006)

I'll keep the greater golem at 30 feet though.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Hmmm...DR/magic and adamantine?




That might be a bit too strong, though.  it might be interesting to give it protection from arrows instead.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Oops...apparently not!




How's that:

Attack: Slam +16 melee (2d10+12 plus energy drain) or greatsword +16 melee (2d6+12/19-20 plus energy drain)
Full Attack: 2 slams +16 melee (2d10+12 plus energy drain) or greatsword +16/+11 melee (2d6+12/19-20 plus energy drain)




			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> It is whispered that a magic-user of 21st level or above with a minimum Intelligence score of 19 can use the libram of constructs to create a still more powerful form of the black golem, a semisentient construct which can create juju zombies and other undead, commanding them in the service of the mage who created it.  This nightmare creation can charm person by gaze and has other powers which hardly bear contemplation.




I'll come back to working on this guy.  Moving to my new apartment has unfortunately robbed me of some free time and mental energy so things are slowing up a bit (but not stopping yet!)


----------



## Shade (Jul 28, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I'll keep the greater golem at 30 feet though.




Cool.   




			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> That might be a bit too strong, though.  it might be interesting to give it protection from arrows instead.




The only downside to doing that is unless I'm mistaken, damage reduction doesn't stack, so only its better DR would apply.  Thus, its DR/adamantine would usually trump the DR/magic anyway.   Also, it did state "immunity to all nonmagical weapons".  I think it would be a nice surprise to have a golem that didn't have just plain ol' adamantine for overcoming its DR.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> How's that:
> 
> Attack: Slam +16 melee (2d10+12 plus energy drain) or greatsword +16 melee (2d6+12/19-20 plus energy drain)
> Full Attack: 2 slams +16 melee (2d10+12 plus energy drain) or greatsword +16/+11 melee (2d6+12/19-20 plus energy drain)




Make the greatsword 3d6+18 (it's a two-handed weapon sized for a Large creature) and it looks good.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> I'll come back to working on this guy.  Moving to my new apartment has unfortunately robbed me of some free time and mental energy so things are slowing up a bit (but not stopping yet!)




Moving will do that to ya!


----------



## BOZ (Jul 28, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> The only downside to doing that is unless I'm mistaken, damage reduction doesn't stack, so only its better DR would apply.  Thus, its DR/adamantine would usually trump the DR/magic anyway.   Also, it did state "immunity to all nonmagical weapons".  I think it would be a nice surprise to have a golem that didn't have just plain ol' adamantine for overcoming its DR.




however you want to work that out is fine by me; let me know.  

PS, no idea on how long my computer will be down, or how long it will take to get my wife's computer connected to the internet again, so i will probably be quiet all weekend at the very least.


----------



## dhaga (Aug 14, 2006)

What do we have left on this guy?



> Any creature approaching within 15' of the golem must save vs. spells or be slowed for 22 rounds.



Should probably drop this a bit, eh?  22 rounds in combat...you may as well just say "forever"...especially since I imagine an additional save is going to need to be made each round someone is within 15' of it, or the counter will get reset?

How about something sane, like 2 rounds?  Or 1d4 rounds?


----------



## Shade (Sep 6, 2006)

Stone golem slows them for 7 rounds, so I think it should be at least that good.   Maybe round off to 1 minute?


----------



## BOZ (Sep 6, 2006)

aka 10 rounds?


----------



## Shade (Sep 6, 2006)

Ayup.


----------



## dhaga (Sep 11, 2006)

> Stone golem slows them for 7 rounds




True, true.  Ok, 10 rounds is more sane


----------



## BOZ (Sep 27, 2006)

Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> A protection from normal missiles spell and a limited wish are employed to give the creature immunity to all nonmagical weapons.




were we going to give it any sort of protection from arrows effect?

it should probably be stated somewhere in the energy drain attack that it can pass the attack through the sword.



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> It is whispered that a magic-user of 21st level or above with a minimum Intelligence score of 19 can use the libram of constructs to create a still more powerful form of the black golem, a semisentient construct which can create juju zombies and other undead, commanding them in the service of the mage who created it.  This nightmare creation can charm person by gaze and has other powers which hardly bear contemplation.




the greater golem currently doesn't have most of these things.  let's fix that up.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> The only downside to doing that is unless I'm mistaken, damage reduction doesn't stack, so only its better DR would apply. Thus, its DR/adamantine would usually trump the DR/magic anyway. Also, it did state "immunity to all nonmagical weapons". I think it would be a nice surprise to have a golem that didn't have just plain ol' adamantine for overcoming its DR.




so, what do you want to do about that?  

the slow effect lasting 10 rounds is OK by me - a lot less severe than 22 rounds, but still plenty devastating.


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> were we going to give it any sort of protection from arrows effect?




I'd still prefer DR 10/magic and adamantine.   Protection from arrows would give it DR 10/magic against ranged weapons (up to 100 points).  That would give an added hassle for the DM to keep track of its current remaining points, we'd have to determine how the mindless golem decides when to replenish the ability, and the DR 10/adamantine would trump it 90% of the time anyway.




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> it should probably be stated somewhere in the energy drain attack that it can pass the attack through the sword.




Agreed!  I just saw a creature with this recently...I think it was in this month's Dragon.  The Ecology of the Wight, perhaps?



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the greater golem currently doesn't have most of these things.  let's fix that up.




Good call!

Borrowing from the spirit naga:

Charming Gaze (Su): As charm person, 30 feet, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Adapted from various other undead:

Create Spawn (Su): Any creature slain by a greater black golem becomes a juju zombie (_Unapproachable East_, p. 66) in X rounds. Spawn are under the command of the creator of the greater black golem that slayed them and remain enslaved until its death.   If you don't have access to _Unapproachable East_, use the zombie template, but the creature retains its abilities and Intelligence score, gains a climb speed equal to 1/2 its land speed, has immunity to electricity, turn resistance +4, and is not limited to single actions only.

Do we want to come up with suggested "other powers which hardly bear contemplation"?




			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> so, what do you want to do about that?




See impassioned plea, above.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> the slow effect lasting 10 rounds is OK by me - a lot less severe than 22 rounds, but still plenty devastating.




That'll work.


----------



## dhaga (Sep 27, 2006)

No need for protection from arrows, I don't think, if we're going DR 10/magic and adamantine.

I think the Charming Gaze and Create Spawn abilities are a good idea for the Greater.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to come up with suggested "other powers which hardly bear contemplation"?




Maximized (or regular) Ray of Enervation once every 1d4 rounds?  Level drain is fun for everyone!  Would be pretty nasty to see this cloud of darkness rolling towards you, an ominous, heavy tread coming from within, firing the occasional ray of nastiness.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 27, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'd still prefer DR 10/magic and adamantine.




that's pretty tough.  



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Agreed!  I just saw a creature with this recently...I think it was in this month's Dragon.  The Ecology of the Wight, perhaps?




i don't have that one.  what does it say about transferring energy drain into wielded weapons?



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Do we want to come up with suggested "other powers which hardly bear contemplation"?




why not?  



			
				dhaga said:
			
		

> Maximized (or regular) Ray of Enervation once every 1d4 rounds? Level drain is fun for everyone! Would be pretty nasty to see this cloud of darkness rolling towards you, an ominous, heavy tread coming from within, firing the occasional ray of nastiness.


----------



## Shade (Sep 27, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> that's pretty tough.




Not so much...adamantine is the hard to come by part.  A magic weapon or similar spell bypasses the magic part of the DR, and magic adamantine weapons aren't much harder to come by than "mundane" adamantine weapons.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> i don't have that one.  what does it say about transferring energy drain into wielded weapons?




Found it.  It's a feat called "Wightblade".  The relevant text:  On a successful melee hit against a living opponent, you may use your energy drain ability in addition to dealing normal damage for your weapon."



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> why not?




I like Dhaga's idea.  The actual energy drain spell is another option.

Other ideas:

- Aura of fear
- Aura of negative energy that bolsters undead
- Unholy property on greatsword


----------



## Mortis (Sep 28, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> and magic adamantine weapons aren't much harder to come by than "mundane" adamantine weapons.



I was under the impression that you couldn't enchant adamantine items, but the SRD does mention anything along those lines - so I wonder where I got that idea from?   

Unless I'm thinking of Mystara's Worldshield ore?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 28, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Found it.  It's a feat called "Wightblade".  The relevant text:  On a successful melee hit against a living opponent, you may use your energy drain ability in addition to dealing normal damage for your weapon."




should we put that line in the text, or should it be a separate line like so?

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a black golem's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 16 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the black golem gains 5 temporary hit points.

On a successful attack roll against a living opponent, a black golem may use its energy drain ability in addition to dealing normal damage for a weapon it wields.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> I like Dhaga's idea.  The actual energy drain spell is another option.
> 
> Other ideas:
> 
> ...




since we're talking a CR difference of +8, why not go with all of that?


----------



## Shade (Sep 28, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that you couldn't enchant adamantine items, but the SRD does mention anything along those lines - so I wonder where I got that idea from?
> 
> Unless I'm thinking of Mystara's Worldshield ore?
> 
> ...




It may have been that way in a prior edition, but you can definitely enchant it nowadays.    



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> should we put that line in the text, or should it be a separate line like so?
> 
> Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a black golem's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 16 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the black golem gains 5 temporary hit points.
> 
> On a successful attack roll against a living opponent, a black golem may use its energy drain ability in addition to dealing normal damage for a weapon it wields.




That looks good as you have it written.



			
				Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> since we're talking a CR difference of +8, why not go with all of that?




Excellent!


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 28, 2006)

here's what the greater golem has currently; anything you want to add, let me know.  

Charming Gaze (Su): As charm person, 30 feet, Will DC X negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Cloak of Shadows (Su): A black golem is continuously surrounded by a darkness effect (caster level 18th).

Create Spawn (Su): Any creature slain by a greater black golem becomes a juju zombie (Unapproachable East, p. 66) in X rounds. Spawn are under the command of the creator of the greater black golem that slayed them and remain enslaved until its death. If you don't have access to Unapproachable East, use the zombie template, but the creature retains its abilities and Intelligence score, gains a climb speed equal to 1/2 its land speed, has immunity to electricity, turn resistance +4, and is not limited to single actions only.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a black golem's slam attack gain one negative level. The DC is 28 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the black golem gains 5 temporary hit points.

On a successful attack roll against a living opponent, a black golem may use its energy drain ability in addition to dealing normal damage for a weapon it wields.

Slow (Su): A black golem can use a slow effect, as the spell, as a free action once every 2 rounds. The effect has a range of 10 feet and a duration of 10 rounds, requiring a DC 28 Will save to negate. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Immunity to Magic (Ex): A black golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. In addition, certain spells and effects function differently against the creature, as noted below.

A magical attack that deals positive energy damage (such as a cure spell) slows a black golem (as the slow spell) for 3 rounds, with no saving throw.

A magical attack that deals negative energy damage breaks any slow effect on the golem and heals 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage the attack would otherwise deal. If the amount of healing would cause the golem to exceed its full normal hit points, it gains any excess as temporary hit points. For example, a black golem hit by a inflict moderate wounds gains back 6 hit points if the damage total is 18 points. A black golem gets no saving throw against negative energy effects.

A black golem is unaffected by rust attacks, despite its iron body.

True Seeing (Su): Black golems continuously use true seeing as the spell (caster level 18th).


----------



## Shade (Sep 28, 2006)

How are these?

Aura of Fear and Desecration (Su): A greater black golem can radiate a X-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC X Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level Xth). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same golem's aura for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Additionally, this aura functions as a desecrate spell (caster level Xth), with the golem treated as a permanent fixture dedicated an evil deity.  Thus, each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area takes a –6 profane penalty, and every undead creature entering a desecrated area gains a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +2 hit points per HD.

Unholy Armaments (Su):  Any weapon wielded by a greater black golem is treated as if it were an unholy weapon, dealing an extra 2d6 points of damage against all of good alignment and bypassing damage reduction/evil.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 28, 2006)

i like it!


----------



## BOZ (Sep 29, 2006)

posted.


----------



## Shade (Sep 29, 2006)

A few thoughts...

The AC may be a bit low for both versions.  Compared to other golems of their CR, they probably need about a +3 or +4 bump in natural armor.

The greater black golem seems a tad to hefty for CR 19.  I'd suggest bumping it to CR 20.


----------



## Aspect of BOZ (Sep 29, 2006)

sure, those ideas sound fine to me.


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2006)

Aspect of BOZ said:
			
		

> sure, those ideas sound fine to me.




Cool.  It's nearing completion.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 2, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Cool.  It's nearing completion.



And we must be getting close to another batch of 10. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## BOZ (Oct 2, 2006)

i'll have to have a look at that.  will post more in an hour or so.


----------



## BOZ (Oct 2, 2006)

updating in homebrews... what's left for this guy? (BTW, this guy, the protein polymorph, and 2 more conversions gives us 10)

was this the adventure it appeared in?:
Master of Puppets
by Carl Sargent


----------



## Shade (Oct 2, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> was this the adventure it appeared in?:
> Master of Puppets
> by Carl Sargent




Indeed.   _Master!  Master!_

We'll need to change the construction guidelines for the greater to be, well, _greater_.    

How about...

A greater black golem’s body is sculpted from 5,000 pounds of pure iron, smelted with rare tinctures and admixtures costing at least 10,000 gp, and topped with the skull of a lich. Assembling the body requires a DC 25 Craft (armorsmithing) check or a DC 25 Craft (weaponsmithing) check.

CL 20th; Craft Construct, blasphemy, deeper darkness, energy drain, fear, gate, geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, slow, true seeing, caster must be at least 20th level; Price 200,000 gp; Cost 100,000 gp + 7,600 XP.


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## BOZ (Oct 2, 2006)

he's a-pulling your strings.

yeah, that looks good.    there are a number of values to be filled in for the big guy, as well.


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2006)

A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weights 22,000 pounds.   A normal stone golem is 9 foot/2,000 lbs., while a standard black golem is 12 foot/3,000 lbs.   Doubling the height of a standard stone golem is 11x the weight, so if we did the same for greater black golem, we'd have 24 feet tall and 33,000 pounds.  Does that work?

I edited the following with my suggestions in *bold*:

Charming Gaze (Su): As charm person, 30 feet, Will DC *28* negates. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Create Spawn (Su): Any creature slain by a greater black golem becomes a juju zombie (Unapproachable East, p. 66) in *1d6 * rounds. Spawn are under the command of the creator of the greater black golem that slayed them and remain enslaved until its death. If you don't have access to Unapproachable East, use the zombie template, but the creature retains its abilities and Intelligence score, gains a climb speed equal to 1/2 its land speed, has immunity to electricity, turn resistance +4, and is not limited to single actions only.

Aura of Fear and Desecration (Su): A greater black golem can radiate a *60*-foot-radius fear aura as a free action. A creature in the area must succeed on a DC *28 * Will save or be affected as though by a fear spell (caster level *20th*). A creature that successfully saves cannot be affected again by the same golem's aura for 24 hours. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Additionally, this aura functions as a desecrate spell (caster level *20th*), with the golem treated as a permanent fixture dedicated an evil deity. Thus, each Charisma check made to turn undead within this area takes a –6 profane penalty, and every undead creature entering a desecrated area gains a +2 profane bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and saving throws. An undead creature created within or summoned into such an area gains +2 hit points per HD.


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

cool, fixed all of that.

aren't the damage bonuses a little screwy for the slams?  did we give them the 1-1/2 Str bonus even though they can make 2 slams per round?  

does the greater golem's create spawn ability come from its energy drain?  if so, we should probably state that.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> aren't the damage bonuses a little screwy for the slams?  did we give them the 1-1/2 Str bonus even though they can make 2 slams per round?




Yup.  We messed up.    



			
				BOZ said:
			
		

> does the greater golem's create spawn ability come from its energy drain?  if so, we should probably state that.




Although it wasn't mentioned previously, that probably makes the most sense, since that is how juju zombies are generally created.


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

updated - how is it looking now?


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

Lookin' good.

Should we mention whether the gems of seeing that constitute its eyes can be recovered after its death?   Should they "burn out"?   Should they factor into construction costs?  Should we just ditch that reference altogether and just leave it with true seeing?


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

i would make those items (and the sword) "treasure"    it's certainly more flavorful.


----------



## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

OK.  Do we want to account for the 75,000 gp per gem of seeing in the creation costs, or just state that the golem's eyes retain their true seeing qualities, and function as gems of seeing after its demise?


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## Aspect of BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

i don't think the gems should be a part of the cost for the creature - that assumes that the golem's creator needs to create the gems of seeing himself.  i'd like to leave them as separate items; if the creator had a couple of them already, then he's in luck, otherwise he's stuck having to create them himself.

i don't see any reason why the gem-eyes shouldn't work after the golem is destroyed, unless of course its means of death would also destroy the gems.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

Alrighty.   Are we done here?


----------



## BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

updating once more - you tell me.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

I believe so.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2006)

On second thought, do we want to list the treasure lines as follows?

Treasure:  _Gems of seeing_


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## BOZ (Oct 3, 2006)

and the greatsword - how would that look?  "2 gems of seeing plus xx greatsword"?  or if we gave it a standard greatsword would that even need to be listed?  do you want to give the greater black golem a greatsword?


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2006)

BOZ said:
			
		

> and the greatsword - how would that look?  "2 gems of seeing plus xx greatsword"?  or if we gave it a standard greatsword would that even need to be listed?  do you want to give the greater black golem a greatsword?




Only the greater black golem has a sword, right?  Since the greatsword itself itsn't magical, but is enhanced by its unholy armaments ability, I don't see any need to list it as treasure.


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## Mortis (Oct 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Only the greater black golem has a sword, right?  Since the greatsword itself itsn't magical, but is enhanced by its unholy armaments ability, I don't see any need to list it as treasure.



I suppose it could be a masterwork greatsword. 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2006)

Mortis said:
			
		

> I suppose it could be a masterwork greatsword.




Nothing wrong with that.  Adamantine would fit nicely with the whole "black" motif, and would help it kick the snot out of other golems.


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## Mortis (Oct 4, 2006)

Shade said:
			
		

> Adamantine would fit nicely with the whole "black" motif, and would help it kick the snot out of other golems.



I like 

and if you disarm it and then use its own sword against it... 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Oct 4, 2006)

what changes should i make to the GBG's stat block to reflect it having a masterwork adamantine greatsword?


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## Shade (Oct 4, 2006)

Masterwork adds +1 to attack rolls which doesn't stack with a magical enhancement.

Note that "masterwork adamantine" is reduntant...



			
				DMG said:
			
		

> Adamantine is so costly that weapons and armor made from it are always of masterwork quality; the masterwork cost is included in the prices given below. Thus, adamantine weapons and ammunition have a +1 enhancement bonus on attack rolls...




So add +1 to the attack rolls, unless you want to change unholy armaments to treat the weapon as a +1 unholy weapon.


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

updated...


----------



## Mortis (Oct 5, 2006)

The standard black golem needs the +1 modifier adding to its adamantine greatsword attack.

Are we done then?

Regards
Mortis


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## Aspect of BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

d'oh!  i guess i hadn't fixed that.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2006)

You might want to add (+2d6 vs. good creatures) to the greater black golems greatsword attacks.


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

updating.


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## Shade (Oct 5, 2006)

Now I think we're finished.


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## BOZ (Oct 5, 2006)

yay!


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

BOZ gave me the go-ahead to lead some of the conversion threads while he focuses on the Dukes of Hell.  So, without further ado, here we go!

Reviler 

Climate/Terrain:  Abandoned buildings, dungeons, and ruins
Frequency:  Very rare
Org:  pack
Activity Cycle: Any
Diet: Nil
Int:  Avg to High (8-14)
Tresure: Nil
AL:  Any evil
# App: 1-8
AC: 2
Movement:  Fly 24 (B)
HD:  4
THAC0: 17
# Attacks: 2
DMG:  1-6/1-6
SA: Spells, alter alignment, poison
SD: +1 or better weapons to hit; see below
MR: 40%
Size: M (5' long)
MORALE: Steady
XP: 1,400

Revilers are undead spirits similar to haunts. They are created by evil gods for the purpose of spreading strife, woe, and terror. Revilers hate all things that are good and pure and seek to corrupt them, or at the veiy least twist their plans toward evil ends. Good beings turned to evil by the revilers' touch are used to sow discord and reap destruction.

Revilers are almost always invisible unless attempting to possess a victim, when they appear as ghostly, swooping shapes with leering skull faces and clawed, grasping limbs.  Their presence is sometimes revealed by soft, eerie whisperings.  A detect undeod, detect evil, or detect invisibility spell reveals the revilers' presence.  A true seeing spell reveals their true shape.

Revilers converse with one another in hollow whispers.  They can speak any intelligent language they knew in life.  Most revilers know the Common tongue.

Combat:  Revilers can attack with two sharp claws, but they must turn visible to do so.  They can also corrupt good or neutral victims by poisoning their minds. By giving up both wounding attacks, a reviler can alter the ethics of any living being it touches (requiring a successful attack roll).  Any good-aligned being touched by a reviler must make a
wisdom check. If the roll fails, the victim's alignment is changed to that of the reviler until a remove curse or dispel evil is cast. A reviler may only attempt to "poison" a certain individual once. If the attempt fails, the victim is immune to any further attacks by that particular reviler.

Revilers also have the following spell-like abilities, cast at the 10th level of ability. Usable once/day: animate object, suggestion, spectral force, stone shape.  Usable thrice/day: detect good, detect magic, telekinesis, wizard lock.

Revilers have the ability to create poison twice/day. Any liquid within 10 feet may be transformed into poison of Type I. The intemal liquids of living creatures cannot be affected. A single reviler may affect up to 1 cubic foot of liquid, and several revilers often work together to poison water wells, drinking springs, ponds, or any other liquid likely to come in contact with good-aligned beings. Such transformed liquid remains poisonous for 2d6 hours. If neutralize poison, cure disease, or purify food and drink is cast upon the poisoned liquid, it reverts to normaI.

Revilers remain invisible until they attack. They are also non corporeal and can move through solid objects, although doing so costs them half their movement.

Revilers are immune to sleep, charm, hold and mind-influencing spells, as well as poison and paralyzation. They are tumed as spectres. Holy water inflicts 1d8 hp damage per vial. Holy word ard dispel evil spells banish then permanently.  They require +1 or better weapons to hit.

Habitat/Society: Revilers inhabit abandoned buildings and ruins and are occasionally encountered in catacombs and cemeteries. As the servants of an evil deity, they are often confined to a specific location and cannot leave that location unless their master dictates otherwise. A typical reviler "haunt" can be anything from a single structure to an entire, forlorn domain. Revilers' lairs radiate strong emanations of evil and therefore tend io attract evil monsters, especially other forms of undead.

Ecology: Revilers are created from the souls of slain men and women of evil disposition. They seek freedom from their tormented state by serving the dark whims of their evil lord, bùt their undead existence only heightens the malevolence they possessed in life.

Source:  Dungeon #71, "Dreadful Vestiges", Steve Johnson, Nov 1998.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

We might as well start with the usual "Is it incorporeal?" question.  So, is it?


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## Mortis (Jun 20, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> We might as well start with the usual "Is it incorporeal?" question.  So, is it?





> They are also non corporeal and can move through solid objects, although doing so costs them half their movement.



I would say so 

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jun 20, 2007)

Well, it does say they are “non corporeal”, but there is definitely the hint that they seem to be semi-solid.     we can either make it simple and go fully incorporeal with them, or give them the ability to turn corporeal at times, or give them some sort of SQ that makes them semi-corporeal.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jun 20, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, it does say they are “non corporeal”, but there is definitely the hint that they seem to be semi-solid.     we can either make it simple and go fully incorporeal with them, or give them the ability to turn corporeal at times, or give them some sort of SQ that makes them semi-corporeal.



Semi-corporeal seems like a good idea.


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## Shade (Jun 20, 2007)

Semi-corporeal...interesting.   Any precedents?

The closest thing I can think of at the moment is the ghost's malevolence power.


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## Mortis (Jun 21, 2007)

BOZ said:
			
		

> Well, it does say they are “non corporeal”, but there is definitely the hint that they seem to be semi-solid.     we can either make it simple and go fully incorporeal with them, or give them the ability to turn corporeal at times, or give them some sort of SQ that makes them semi-corporeal.



They are also a spirit. I think we had this discussion with the Gray Philosopher - amongst others 

I would prefer them to be incorporeal and maybe have to 'manifest' to attack physically.

Semi corporeal is an interesting idea, however. An incorporeal creature can be damaged 50% of the time with a magic weapon. Maybe a semi corporeal creature can be damaged 50% of the with ANY weapon or 75% of the time with a magic weapon?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 21, 2007)

Let's pick apart the incorporeal subtype and see what might change in a "semicorporeal" state...



> Incorporeal Subtype: Some creatures are incorporeal by nature, while others (such as those that become ghosts) can acquire the incorporeal subtype. An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells, including touch spells, or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Nondamaging spell effects affect incorporeal creatures normally unless they require corporeal targets to function (such as implosion) or they create a corporeal effect that incorporeal creatures would normally be unaffected by (such as a web or wall of stone spell). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature.




As discussed upthread, perhaps 25% miss chance vs. magical attacks and weapons, and 50% vs. mundane?



> An incorporeal creature's attacks pass through (ignore) natural armor, armor, and shields, although deflection bonuses and force effects (such as mage armor) work normally against it. Nonmagical attacks made by an incorporeal creature with a melee weapon have no effect on corporeal targets, and any melee attack an incorporeal creature makes with a magic weapon against a corporeal target has a 50% miss chance, except for attacks it makes with a ghost touch weapon, while are made normally (no miss chance).




Once again, reduce its own miss chance to 25%?



> Any equipment worn or carried by an incorporeal creature is also incorporeal as long as it remains in the creature's possession. An object that the creature relinquishes loses its incorporeal quality (and the creature loses the ability to manipulate the object). If an incorporeal creature uses a thrown weapon or a ranged weapon, the projectile becomes corporeal as soon as it is fired and can affect a corporeal target normally (no miss chance). Magic items possessed by an incorporeal creature work normally with respect to their effects on the creature or on another target. Similarly, spells cast by an incorporeal creature affect corporeal creatures normally.




Nothing needs to change here, eh?



> An incorporeal creature has no natural armor bonus but has a deflection bonus equal to its Charisma bonus (always at least +1, even if the creature's Charisma score does not normally provide a bonus).




Perhaps a bonus equal to half its Cha modifier, and it can benefit from natural armor?



> An incorporeal creature can enter or pass through solid objects, but must remain adjacent to the object's exterior, and so cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than its own. It can sense the presence of creatures or objects within a square adjacent to its current location, but enemies have total concealment (50% miss chance) from an incorporeal creature that is inside an object. In order to see farther from the object it is in and attack normally, the incorporeal creature must emerge. An incorporeal creature inside an object has total cover, but when it attacks a creature outside the object it only has cover, so a creature outside with a readied action could strike at it as it attacks. An incorporeal creature cannot pass through a force effect.




Maybe use the rules for squeezing when it attempts to pass through a solid object?



> Incorporeal creatures pass through and operate in water as easily as they do in air. Incorporeal creatures cannot fall or take falling damage. Incorporeal creatures cannot make trip or grapple attacks, nor can they be tripped or grappled. In fact, they cannot take any physical action that would move or manipulate an opponent or its equipment, nor are they subject to such actions. Incorporeal creatures have no weight and do not set off traps that are triggered by weight.




Stick with all this, or maybe treat them as smaller creatures when grappling?



> An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Listen checks if it doesn't wish to be. It has no Strength score, so its Dexterity modifier applies to both its melee attacks and its ranged attacks. Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures. Incorporeal creatures have an innate sense of direction and can move at full speed even when they cannot see.




What about this?   A bonus on Move Silently checks?   Allow a Str score?


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## Mortis (Jun 22, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> As discussed upthread, perhaps 25% miss chance vs. magical attacks and weapons, and 50% vs. mundane?



Looks good.


> Once again, reduce its own miss chance to 25%?



Naturally 


> Nothing needs to change here, eh?



Other than 'incorpreal' to 'semicorporeal' - no. 


> Perhaps a bonus equal to half its Cha modifier



Sounds about right.


> and it can benefit from natural armor?



Yes but reduced. If we were talking about a template, I would recommend half the natural armor of the base creature, but as we're talking about a subtype...


> Maybe use the rules for squeezing when it attempts to pass through a solid object?



That should work.


> Stick with all this, or maybe treat them as smaller creatures when grappling?



Not sure... I can't see them being very effective at grappling but then again they are going to be difficult opponents TO grapple. Maybe a penalty for trying any 'offensive' grappling actions but a bonus to prevent from being grappled or escaping a grapple?


> A bonus on Move Silently checks?   Allow a Str score?



Yes to both 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 22, 2007)

I'd like to avoid creating a new subtype, but we could make in incorporeal and give it a special quality like so:

Semicorporeal (Ex):  Although the reviler has the incorporeal subtype, it is slightly corporeal at times.  As a result, the chance to avoid damage from a corporeal source is only 25% (rather than the usual 50%), and it can be hit by nonmagical weapons, but has a 50% chance to ignore such attacks.  When attacking a corporeal target with a magical weapon, the reviler suffers only a 25% miss chance, and can strike with nonmagical weapons with a 50% miss chance.  As a semicorporeal creature, a reviler may possess a natural armor bonus, but its deflection bonus is only equal to half its Charisma bonus.  A reviler possesses a Strength score, and applies its Strength modifier to melee attack rolls.   A reviler can pass through solid objects as incorporeal creatures do, but counts each square as if it were 2 squares, and while passing through a solid object takes a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.   A semicorporeal creature does not always move completely silently, but does gain a +8 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

So any further thoughts? 

The semi-corporeal quality looks good to me, anyone else?

Some basic stats

Reviler
Medium Undead (Incorporeal)
Hit Dice: 4d12 (26 hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: Fly X ft. (X squares) (perfect)
Armor Class: x (+x Dex, +x natural ,+x deflection), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+x
Attack: Claw +x melee (x+x)
Full Attack: 2 claws +x melee (x+x)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: 
Special Qualities: Corrupt liquid, darkvision 60 ft., incorporeal traits, semicorporeal, spell-like abilities, undead traits 
Saves: Fort +x, Ref +x, Will +x
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con x, Int x, Wis x, Cha x
Skills: X
Feats: X
Environment: X
Organization: X
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Alignment: X
Advancement: X
Level Adjustment: -

Regards
Mortis


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## Mortis (Jun 27, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Revilers are undead spirits similar to haunts.



Haunt stats (3.0): Str —, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 14

Something similar? 
Str X, Dex 13-16, Con -, Int 12-14, Wis 12-16, Cha 13-18

How strong should a semi-corporeal being be?



> They can also corrupt good or neutral victims by poisoning their minds. By giving up both *wounding* attacks...



Enough of an excuse to give the claws the 'wounding' property? 

*Spell-Like Abilities: *3/day -  _arcane lock, detect good, detect magic, telekinesis_, 1/day - _animate object, major image, suggestion, stone shape_. Caster level 10th.

What would be closest to spectral force?
<edit>Never mind here's a link, thanks to Shade's link in another thread about another spell!!!
so spectral force = major image.



> Revilers have the ability to create poison twice/day. Any liquid within 10 feet may be transformed into poison of Type I.



Corrupt Liquid (Su): ... A specific posion or a generic one.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jun 27, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Haunt stats (3.0): Str —, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 14, Cha 14
> 
> Something similar?
> Str X, Dex 13-16, Con -, Int 12-14, Wis 12-16, Cha 13-18




That sounds like a good place to start.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> How strong should a semi-corporeal being be?




Maybe like the semi-corporeal belker (Str 14)?  



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Enough of an excuse to give the claws the 'wounding' property?




I don't see why not.    



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> *Spell-Like Abilities: *3/day -  _arcane lock, detect good, detect magic, telekinesis_, 1/day - _animate object, major image, suggestion, stone shape_. Caster level 10th.




Looks good.  I added save DC placeholders in Homebrews.



			
				Mortis said:
			
		

> Corrupt Liquid (Su): ... A specific posion or a generic one.




Hmmm...will need to see what Type I poison did back in the day.


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## Mortis (Jun 28, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Maybe like the semi-corporeal belker (Str 14)?



It's in the right ballpark, so why not.  



> I added save DC placeholders in Homebrews.



Thanks



> Hmmm...will need to see what Type I poison did back in the day.



Anyone?

Regards
Mortis


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## BOZ (Jun 29, 2007)

totally forgot about the belker... although that's more like "semisolid" rather than "semi-corporeal"


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## GrayLinnorm (Jun 30, 2007)

From the 2e DMG: Table 51: Poison Strength (p.73)

Class I 
Method: Ingested
Onset: 2-12 min.
Strength: 30/15

The first number for strength is how many points of damage the poison usually inflicts; the second is how much on a successful saving throw.


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## Shade (Jul 2, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> From the 2e DMG: Table 51: Poison Strength (p.73)
> 
> Class I
> Method: Ingested
> ...




Thanks!

So in 3.5 terms, that's probably Con damage, dealing more on initial than secondary, eh?


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## Mortis (Jul 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> So in 3.5 terms, that's probably Con damage, dealing more on initial than secondary, eh?



Does 2d6/1d6 Con damage seem reasonable?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Is that a bit much for 4 HD?   (I haven't compared to other creatures, so it might not be.)


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## Mortis (Jul 5, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Is that a bit much for 4 HD?   (I haven't compared to other creatures, so it might not be.)



Possibly 

I've just checked three creatures from the srd

Large monstrous spider (4 HD) does 1d6 Str/1d6 Str
Large monstrous scorpion (5 HD) does 1d4 Con/1d4 Con
The viper always does 1d6 Con/1d6 Con only the DC varies with size.

I guess 1d6 Con/!d6 Con would be more in keeping with those.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 5, 2007)

Great!   How about 1d6/1d4 to preserve the lesser secondary effect?


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## Mortis (Jul 6, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Great!   How about 1d6/1d4 to preserve the lesser secondary effect?



Yeah that's fine

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 6, 2007)

How does this look?

Corrupt Liquid (Su): Twice per day, a reviler can transform 1 cubic foot of water into a deadly ingested poison (Fort DC X, initial damage 1d6 Con, secondary damage 1d4 Con).  Corrupted liquids revert to normal after 2d6 hours, and a neutralize poison, purify food and drink, or remove disease immediately removes the corruption.  Multiple revilers often work together to corrupt larger bodies of water.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

Let's nail down the ability scores.

Str 14, Dex 13-16, Con -, Int 12-14, Wis 12-16, Cha 13-18

How about...

Str 14, Dex 16, Con -, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15


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## BOZ (Jul 9, 2007)

it's just a picky thing, but "corrupt fluid" sounds better to me - no hard feelings if you disagree though.


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## Shade (Jul 9, 2007)

Hi, BOZ!  <waves at BOZ>

Heh heh...corrupt fluid.   <restrains comment in case Grandma's around>

Just kidding...that'll work.


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## Shade (Jul 10, 2007)

Is everyone OK with Str 14, Dex 16, Con -, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15?


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## Mortis (Jul 11, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Is everyone OK with Str 14, Dex 16, Con -, Int 12, Wis 12, Cha 15?



Yeah

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2007)

Updated in Homebrews.

Time to address this...




> They can also corrupt good or neutral victims by poisoning their minds. By giving up both wounding attacks, a reviler can alter the ethics of any living being it touches (requiring a successful attack roll). Any good-aligned being touched by a reviler must make a
> wisdom check. If the roll fails, the victim's alignment is changed to that of the reviler until a remove curse or dispel evil is cast. A reviler may only attempt to "poison" a certain individual once. If the attempt fails, the victim is immune to any further attacks by that particular reviler.




Any precedents?


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## freyar (Jul 11, 2007)

You might look at the morality undone spell in FC1.  I don't have it with me at the moment, though.


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## Shade (Jul 11, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> You might look at the morality undone spell in FC1.  I don't have it with me at the moment, though.




Good call!  Here's the relevant text...



> You temporarily turn one creature evil. The chaotic/neutral/lawful ocmponent of the subject's alignment remains unchanged. The subject retains whatever outlook, allegiances, and relationships it had before, as long as they do not conflict with its new alignment. Otherwise, it acts with its new selfish, bloodthirsty, and cruel outlook in all matters.
> 
> An atonement spell restores the subject's original alignment, but a remove curse spell has no effect.




How's this?

Touch of Evil (Su):  As a standard action, a reviler may make a melee touch attack to corrupt a nonevil creature.   The target must succeed on a DC X Will save.  Failure indicates that the creature's alignment switches to evil. The chaotic/neutral/lawful ocmponent of the subject's alignment remains unchanged. The subject retains whatever outlook, allegiances, and relationships it had before, as long as they do not conflict with its new alignment. Otherwise, it acts with its new selfish, bloodthirsty, and cruel outlook in all matters.

An atonement spell restores the subject's original alignment, but a remove curse spell has no effect.


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## Mortis (Jul 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> Touch of Evil (Su):  As a standard action, a reviler may make a melee touch attack to corrupt a nonevil creature.   The target must succeed on a DC X Will save.  Failure indicates that the creature's alignment switches to evil. The chaotic/neutral/lawful ocmponent of the subject's alignment remains unchanged. The subject retains whatever outlook, allegiances, and relationships it had before, as long as they do not conflict with its new alignment. Otherwise, it acts with its new selfish, bloodthirsty, and cruel outlook in all matters.
> 
> An atonement spell restores the subject's original alignment, but a remove curse spell has no effect.



I like that. 

Noticed a typo in the homebrew entry


> Revilers are undead spirits similar to haunts. They are created by evil gods for the purpose of spreading strife, woe, and terror. Revilers hate all things that are good and pure and seek to corrupt them, or at the *veiy* least twist their plans toward evil ends. Good beings turned to evil by the revilers' touch are used to sow discord and reap destruction.



very?

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 12, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Noticed a typo in the homebrew entry




Heh.  I'll have to rewrite that section anyway, as it is lifted word-for-word from the original.  I just threw it in there as a placeholder.

Here's what's left besides flavor text:

Natural armor bonus
Skills: 35
Feats: 2
Challenge Rating: X
Treasure: X
Advancement: X


----------



## Mortis (Jul 12, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Natural armor bonus
> Skills: 35
> Feats: 2
> Challenge Rating: X
> ...




Natural armor: +3
Skills: Hide, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (nobility & royalty), Listen, Spot - 7 ranks each - I suggest the two knowledges because what sows discord more than talking about politics and religion. 
Feats: Blind-fight, Weapon Focus (touch attacks)
CR: 4
Treasure: Well the original had none.
Advancement: 5-8 HD (Medium) or by character class

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 13, 2007)

I swapped out Weapon Focus for Weapon Finesse, as it gave the creature a better boost.    

I think we've covered everything except the invisibility.  Since they turn visible to attack, I suppose natural invisibility doesn't make much sense.   How about invisibility as an at will SLA?


----------



## Mortis (Jul 13, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I swapped out Weapon Focus for Weapon Finesse, as it gave the creature a better boost.



Nice 



> How about invisibility as an at will SLA?



That'll work

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

I think this one is done.  I cleaned up the flavor text.   Give it another look and let me know if anything is missing or is incorrect.


----------



## Mortis (Jul 16, 2007)

Looks okay to me, but then again I'm not at my best on a Monday 

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Jul 16, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Looks okay to me, but then again I'm not at my best on a Monday




Nor am I.


----------



## Shade (Oct 10, 2007)

*Conjurer Puppet*

AC 5
MV 9"
HD 7+7
hp 40, 30
#AT 2
Dmg 2-12 and special
SA hats
SD immune to mind-affecting spells, electrical attacks, poisons, paralysis, and gas attacks, suprised only on 1 in 12
AL:  N


These puppets are made of articulate brass, steel, and wood covered in treated cloth.  Each carries a floppy hat and a short wooden wand.  The puppets attack by throwing their hats; as soon as one hat is launched, another magically appears in the puppet's hand.  Each puppet can use up to six hat attacks per day (one hat per round).  The effective range of the hats is 30' (with a -2 penalty to hit at ranges greater than 10').

if a hat is successfully thrown onto a PC's head, roll 1d4 to determine the effect (which lasts for 2-5 rounds):  1, blinded; 2, stare at events in mute stupefaction; 3, collapse in helpless laughter; 4, attack nearest member of own party.  In all cases, a save vs. spells applies.  If the save is successful, the hat has no effect on the PC and disappears.  A hat also disappears at the expiration of the magical effect if the save was unsuccessful.  Unaffected PCs may remove hats from afflicted PCs, requiring one full round to do so (no "to hit" roll is needed).  If this is done, the effect of the hat dissipates in 1 round, but the hat disappears as it is grabbed.  A PC already wearing one such hat cannot be affected by a second, and the puppets are smart enough to know this and direct attacks accordingly.  

Each puppet can make a second attack per round with its wand, striking for 2-12 hp electrical damage (save vs. spells for half damage).  The wands are usable only by the puppets.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #14 (1988).


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

I need to look at the adventure again to try to get a definitive size on these fellas.



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> These puppets are made of articulate brass, steel, and wood covered in treated cloth.  Each carries a floppy hat and a short wooden wand.  The puppets attack by throwing their hats; as soon as one hat is launched, another magically appears in the puppet's hand.  Each puppet can use up to six hat attacks per day (one hat per round).  The effective range of the hats is 30' (with a -2 penalty to hit at ranges greater than 10').
> 
> if a hat is successfully thrown onto a PC's head, roll 1d4 to determine the effect (which lasts for 2-5 rounds):  1, blinded; 2, stare at events in mute stupefaction; 3, collapse in helpless laughter; 4, attack nearest member of own party.  In all cases, a save vs. spells applies.  If the save is successful, the hat has no effect on the PC and disappears.  A hat also disappears at the expiration of the magical effect if the save was unsuccessful.  Unaffected PCs may remove hats from afflicted PCs, requiring one full round to do so (no "to hit" roll is needed).  If this is done, the effect of the hat dissipates in 1 round, but the hat disappears as it is grabbed.  A PC already wearing one such hat cannot be affected by a second, and the puppets are smart enough to know this and direct attacks accordingly.




Let's see.   We have our range (30 feet) and range increment (10 feet).

Swift action to create another hat?

Will save vs. effects?

The effects can be partially modeled off the confusion spell. 



			
				Shade said:
			
		

> Each puppet can make a second attack per round with its wand, striking for 2-12 hp electrical damage (save vs. spells for half damage).  The wands are usable only by the puppets.




Hmmm...since it can make an attack with both a hat and wand in a given round, should we make one of them a swift action?  Or should we writeup a specific ability allowing a full attack to include both a hat and wand attack?


----------



## freyar (Oct 16, 2007)

I'd say:

Make the hat creation a free action, since it happens immediately.  Then make the wand a swift action, maybe.

Will save negates sounds good and the confusion spell also sounds good.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say:
> 
> Make the hat creation a free action, since it happens immediately.  Then make the wand a swift action, maybe.
> 
> Will save negates sounds good and the confusion spell also sounds good.




Sounds good.  Only one question: what is a "swift action"?


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Sounds good.  Only one question: what is a "swift action"?




Swift and immediate actions were added in 3.5.

Here's a summary:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm


----------



## dhaga (Oct 16, 2007)

Thanks, Shade.  I'm still relatively new to 3.5 (just started DMing in it myself during our most recent gaming session (was in 3.0 for a long time beforehand)) and this is the first I've heard of these "swift actions". 

Now that I know the definition, my comment: should an attack be a swift action? Does that break the rules a bit?


----------



## Shade (Oct 16, 2007)

I read back through the adventure, and no specific sizes given, but it is mentioned that they are the size of a normal ventriloquist's dummy.  So we can make them either Tiny or Small.

Since the recommended maximum HD for Tiny is 6, and these guys start at 7 HD, and are the weakest of the dummies in the module, I'd suggest we go with Small.  They can still be only 2 feet tall.   Thoughts?


----------



## freyar (Oct 17, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Since the recommended maximum HD for Tiny is 6, and these guys start at 7 HD, and are the weakest of the dummies in the module, I'd suggest we go with Small.  They can still be only 2 feet tall.   Thoughts?




A very short Small it is, then.


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

Conjurer Puppet
Small Construct
Hit Dice: 7d10+10 (48 hp)
Initiative: +x
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares)
Armor Class: x (+1 size, +x Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+x
Attack: Hat +x ranged (special) and/or wand +x ranged? (2d6 electricity)
Full Attack: Hat +x ranged (special) and wand +x ranged? (2d6 electricity)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Hats
Special Qualities: Construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +2, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str x, Dex x, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -
Environment: Any land
Organization: Solitary, pair, or gang (3-4)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -


----------



## GrayLinnorm (Oct 17, 2007)

No intelligence? The line "and the puppets are smart enough to know this" seems to imply that they are intelligent, although it could just be instinct.

I would also suggest a higher Charisma (the effects of their hats suggest a Charisma-based saving throw).


----------



## Shade (Oct 17, 2007)

GrayLinnorm said:
			
		

> No intelligence? The line "and the puppets are smart enough to know this" seems to imply that they are intelligent, although it could just be instinct.
> 
> I would also suggest a higher Charisma (the effects of their hats suggest a Charisma-based saving throw).




Excellent points.   I went with the stock mindless construct stats, but we can definitely grant them an Int and/or higher Cha.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 17, 2007)

> Each puppet can make a second attack per round with its wand, striking for 2-12 hp electrical damage (save vs. spells for half damage). The wands are usable only by the puppets.




"Striking" makes me think of a melee attack, but I don't think that would be good for these little guys, especially due to the ranged nature of the hats.  I think the wand attack should be ranged.

I agree that they should have Int, though it need not be very high.
Str 6, Dex 14, Con -, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 14?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 18, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> "Striking" makes me think of a melee attack, but I don't think that would be good for these little guys, especially due to the ranged nature of the hats.  I think the wand attack should be ranged.



Well, you can be struck by a bolt of lightning so why not?



> I agree that they should have Int, though it need not be very high.
> Str 6, Dex 14, Con -, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 14?



Looks ok to me

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 18, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

How do the special abilities look?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 18, 2007)

> Victim stupefied, doing nothing but quietly stare blankly.



That could probably be changed to "Victim is stupefied, standing quietly, with a blank stare."
We should state if a stupefied victim is considered helpless or not.

Special abilities look good otherwise.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> That could probably be changed to "Victim is stupefied, standing quietly, with a blank stare."
> We should state if a stupefied victim is considered helpless or not.




Good points.

We might also consider just going with the fascinated condition:

Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature’s ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.


----------



## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Good points.
> 
> We might also consider just going with the fascinated condition:
> 
> Fascinated: A fascinated creature is entranced by a supernatural or spell effect. The creature stands or sits quietly, taking no actions other than to pay attention to the fascinating effect, for as long as the effect lasts. It takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Listen and Spot checks. Any potential threat, such as a hostile creature approaching, allows the fascinated creature a new saving throw against the fascinating effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the fascinated creature, automatically breaks the effect. A fascinated creature’s ally may shake it free of the spell as a standard action.



Yeah I think using fascinated will work fine.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

We still need...

Armor Class: x (+1 size, +2 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x
Skills: 10
Feats: 3
Challenge Rating: x
Advancement: x
Weight
Range for wandstrike?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Armor Class: x (+1 size, +2 Dex, +x natural), touch x, flat-footed x



+4 Natural


> Skills: 10



Disguise self/hide 3 ranks, Spot 4 ranks, Listen 3 ranks,


> Feats: 3



Point blank shot, rapid shot, shot on the run


> Challenge Rating: x



3


> Advancement: x



8-14 HD (small)


> Weight



20 pounds


> Range for wandstrike?



30 feet.

Those feats should with its hats attack 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

I agree with most of that.

The feats will need some modification, though.

Shot on the Run requires Dodge, Mobility, and Point Blank Shot, so it won't be able to get it without one of those being a bonus feat.

Do you think Rapid Shot makes it too powerful?  Or more specifically, should we change the hat to a swift action rather than a free action, thereby limiting it to one per round?


----------



## Mortis (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Shot on the Run requires Dodge, Mobility, and Point Blank Shot, so it won't be able to get it without one of those being a bonus feat.



True    Something else then?



> Do you think Rapid Shot makes it too powerful?  Or more specifically, should we change the hat to a swift action rather than a free action, thereby limiting it to one per round?



I don't think so, but after reading the original text which expicitly states only one hat per round maybe we should get rid of rapid shot.

Replace it with dodge, have mobility as a bonus feat, and voila it qualifies for shot on the run. 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Replace it with dodge, have mobility as a bonus feat, and voila it qualifies for shot on the run.




Me like.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Good work 



> 2: Victim is fascinated by the hat.



Change to simply "2: Victim is fascinated."?  We know the effect is from the hat


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Change to simply "2: Victim is fascinated."?  We know the effect is from the hat




I was intending to mean "the hat is the object of its fascination", but I can see how your interpretation makes sense.    

So...should the hat or the puppet be the source of the victim's fascination?


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> I was intending to mean "the hat is the object of its fascination", but I can see how your interpretation makes sense.
> 
> So...should the hat or the puppet be the source of the victim's fascination?




Ah, and now I understand your interpretation.  I think it would be the puppet.


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

How's this?

2:  Victim is fascinated by the conjurer puppet.


----------



## freyar (Oct 19, 2007)

This is looking good.  You're moving really fast!


----------



## dhaga (Oct 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How's this?
> 
> 2:  Victim is fascinated by the conjurer puppet.



Looks good!


----------



## Shade (Oct 19, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> This is looking good.  You're moving really fast!




I'm making up for lost time the past few weeks.


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2007)

Construction time!



			
				Dungeon #14 said:
			
		

> Libram of Constructs
> 
> The libram is a magical work giving full instructions for the manufacture of a range of golemlike constructs.  The book radiates an evil aura, but may be used by an alignment.  A magic-user of 12th or higher level may manufacture any of the puppets detailed in this scenario (except the ventriloquist puppet, which requires a 14th-level magic-user creator). The manufacture of any such puppet requires a minimum of six weeks' magical research and construction, using materials and spells as the DM rules appropriate (see the following for an example).  However, without a limited wish spell, there is a 1% chance per day that the mage is not able to control the puppet, which then attacks everything in sight.  Without a permanency spell, there is a 1% chance per day that the puppet simply falls apart and is useless.  Only an evil magic-user has control over his creations using this book; all others who build constructs using this book are immediately attacked by their creations, which gain a +4 to hit against good-aligned magic-users.




The following part is taken from the black golem conversion we did from the same module:

Construction
The secrets to creating a black golem are found in the Libram of Constructs, an evil tome thats origins can be traced to the Nine Hells of Baator. Rumor has it that the book always finds its way into the hands of a powerful lawful evil wizard, as a reward for services to the baatezu.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 23, 2007)

So should the original text be included in each construct entry for the module, or are we just using a portion of the text?

I think most of the full text should be included, if possible, including the spells needed for construction.  It would not be too hard to adapt to each creature, as long as we're not limited by text space.


----------



## Shade (Oct 24, 2007)

It sure can be included.  We are only limited by our imaginations, as far as I can tell.


----------



## Shade (Oct 25, 2007)

Taking a stab at construction...

Construction
The secrets to creating a conjurer puppet are found in the Libram of Constructs, an evil tome thats origins can be traced to the Nine Hells of Baator. Rumor has it that the book always finds its way into the hands of a powerful lawful evil wizard, as a reward for services to the baatezu.

The materials involved in the construction of a conjurer puppet's body are inexpensive (x gp), but the actual crafting of the body is more difficult. To craft the body requires a DC X Craft (?) or a DC x Profession (puppetteer?) check. A dark ritual is performed that transforms the lifeless doll into a construct. 

CL 12th; Craft Construct, animate objects, blindness/deafness, confusion, hideous laughter, lightning bolt, caster must be at least 12th level; Price x gp; Cost x gp + x XP.

*Note:  Casting limited wish as an additional prerequisite eliminates the berserk ability from the conjurer puppet.

We should add this ability, modified from the flesh golem...

Berserk (Ex): When a conjurer puppet enters combat, there is a cumulative 1% chance each round that its elemental spirit breaks free and the puppet goes berserk. The uncontrolled puppet goes on a rampage, attacking the nearest living creature or blasting some object smaller than itself with its wandstrike if no creature is within reach, then moving on to spread more destruction. The puppet's creator, if within 60 feet, can try to regain control by speaking firmly and persuasively to the puppet, which requires a DC 19 Charisma check. It takes 1 minute of inactivity by the puppet to reset the puppet's berserk chance to 0%.


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## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

Fairly effective stab, I'd say.  Just need to fill in some X's:
500 gp for materials? 1000 gp?

DC 25 Craft (Doll) or Craft (Puppet) or DC 25 Profession (Puppeteer)


----------



## freyar (Oct 26, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> DC 25 Craft (Doll) or Craft (Puppet) or DC 25 Profession (Puppeteer)




I'd probably go with something like Craft (Woodworking) or similar.


----------



## dhaga (Oct 26, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd probably go with something like Craft (Woodworking) or similar.



That would probably work.  Craft (Doll) or (Puppet) maybe too specific?


----------



## Shade (Oct 30, 2007)

Updated Homebrews.

I set the market price to 5,000 gp, as that put it within the range of other CR 3 golems.

How's it looking?


----------



## freyar (Oct 31, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> That would probably work.  Craft (Doll) or (Puppet) maybe too specific?




That was my thought.  I like what Shade has now (except that the profession check says "DC DC").

Description: This appears to be an intricate ventriloquist's dummy, about two feet tall, made of wood, brass, and steel, dressed in a cloth costume.  Its hand holds a short wand, and it wears a very notable oversized, floppy hat.


----------



## Shade (Oct 31, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> That was my thought.  I like what Shade has now (except that the profession check says "DC DC").




That should have said "AC/DC".    

Updated.  How's it look now?


----------



## freyar (Oct 31, 2007)

I'd say it looks done.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 6, 2007)

Looks good to me, as well.

Nitpicky editor's note:
Wandstrike (Ex): A conjurer puppet can strike with its wand as a swift action. The wandstrike deals 2d6 points of electricity (no save) with a successful *range touch* attack. Its maximum range is 30 feet with no range increment.

Should be "ranged touch".


----------



## Shade (Nov 9, 2007)

*Stun Puppet*

AC 2
MV 9"
HD 6+6
hp 37, 32
#AT 2
Dmg 2-11/2-11
SA stunning
SD immune to mind-affecting spells, electrical attacks, poisons, paralysis, and gas attacks
AL: N

The guards here are similar in appearance to <conjurer puppets>, but they do not carry hats or wands.  Instead, they have large bronze-covered fists.

Blows from the puppets which hit on a natural 19 or 20 stun the victim (-4 on "to hit" rolls, -2 to damage, +4 AC penalty, movement rate halved, spellcasting impossible) for 2-7 rounds.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #14 (1988).


----------



## freyar (Nov 10, 2007)

Ok, this shouldn't be too bad.  Str should be 12-13 and the damage from the fist slams should be 1d10, I guess.  Make a special stun ability such that the fists have threat range 19-20.  Successful criticals force the victim to make a Con based Fort save or be stunned for 1d6+1 rounds?


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

That sounds good, except Stun attacks are usually Strength-based.

Its AC is 3 better than the conjurer puppet.  I don't think it should have better Dex (in fact, I'd suggest lower Dex), so give it better natural armor?

Stunning Fists (Ex):  A stun puppet's slam attacks threaten a critical hit on a 19-20.  Additionally, anyone struck by a stun puppet's slam attack must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d6+1 rounds.  The save DC is Strength-based.


----------



## freyar (Nov 12, 2007)

Stunning fists looks good.  I agree with going for natural armor.


----------



## Shade (Nov 12, 2007)

Added to Homebrews using much of the conjurer puppet's text as placeholder.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 14, 2007)

The conjurer puppet base stats work fine for this guy, too, with a few adjustments:
With the higher Str, Grapple will be at a whole +1!

Or maybe just that adjustment.
For feats, with could give them Power Attack (seems fitting).  Improved Sunder also?


----------



## Shade (Nov 14, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> For feats, with could give them Power Attack (seems fitting).  Improved Sunder also?




Sounds good.   Ability Focus (stunning fists) for the remaining feat?


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Sounds good.   Ability Focus (stunning fists) for the remaining feat?




Good choice.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

For skills, it has 9 ranks.

Split between Listen and Spot?


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> For skills, it has 9 ranks.
> 
> Split between Listen and Spot?




Sure.  Or else go the optimized route and dump all the ranks in one of the skills.  No big deal.


----------



## Mortis (Nov 15, 2007)

For some reason, I favour Spot 6, Listen 3, rather than having one at 5 and the other at 4, don't ask why though  :\ 

Regards
Mortis


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> For some reason, I favour Spot 6, Listen 3, rather than having one at 5 and the other at 4, don't ask why though  :\




Eh, you crazy Brits!


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> For some reason, I favour Spot 6, Listen 3, rather than having one at 5 and the other at 4, don't ask why though  :\




I can't argue with that logic.   

Construction can be very similar to the conjurer puppets, just swap out some spells.

What's a good low-level spell that leads to stunning?


----------



## freyar (Nov 15, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> What's a good low-level spell that leads to stunning?




_Color spray_ and _sound burst_ are the only ones I find below 6th level after a quick glance through the SRD.  Plenty of monsters have stun abilities, though, I think.  Edit: so it's odd that there aren't more spells.

Do any other constructs have stunning attacks?  Maybe we can look at their construction.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

_sound burst_ would be a fine choice, if we don't find any others.


----------



## Shade (Nov 15, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> _Color spray_ and _sound burst_ are the only ones I find below 6th level after a quick glance through the SRD.  Plenty of monsters have stun abilities, though, I think.  Edit: so it's odd that there aren't more spells.
> 
> Do any other constructs have stunning attacks?  Maybe we can look at their construction.




The minogon does, but its construction doesn't really address it...

geas/quest, limited wish, polymorph any object, and summon monster IV.

I'm fine with sound burst, or even bull's strength.


----------



## dhaga (Nov 15, 2007)

Let's go with sound burst, unless there is an objection.


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

Sounds fine to me. (Pun sort-of intended.)


----------



## Mortis (Nov 16, 2007)

dhaga said:
			
		

> Let's go with sound burst, unless there is an objection.



rings my bell

Regards
Mortis


----------



## Shade (Nov 16, 2007)

Sound burst it is.

I also added resist energy (since they are immune to electricity) and we needed another prereq spell.    

Updated Homebrews.  Anything left?


----------



## freyar (Nov 16, 2007)

Didn't see anything else.


----------



## Shade (Nov 20, 2007)

Ventriloquist Puppet

AC 3
MV 15"
HD 5+5
hp 33
#AT 2
Dmg 1-6/1-6 (Fists)
SA +1 on initiative rolls, spell use, drumming
SD spell use, immune to mind-affecting spells, poisons, paralysis, and gas attacks; saves as 16th-level magic-user; 15% magic resistance
AL: LE

This infuriating creature was once a ventriloquist's dummy, but by some hideous arcane means it took possession of its owner's mind and now possesses his intelligence.  Qhyjanoth has given it greater powers by magical means, and in exchange it is serving him for a limited duration.  The puppet can cast a ventriloquism spell six times per day (with which it causes maximum distraction and confusion) and the following spells once per day each:  command, hypnotism, improved invisibility, and suggestion.  The puppet may use only one of thes spells per round.  It is armed with two rods of wood and metal with which it can beat out a tattoo on any solid surface.  After three continuous rounds of listening to this drumming, PCs must save vs. spells or be confused as per the duration of the drumming and for 2-5 rounds after it stops.  The puppet can melee and use spells in the same round, but while drumming it cannot undertake any other offensive action or cast spells.  It attacks anyone but Qhyjanoth--but, unlike the zombies, it will flee after Qhyjanoth if it is injured.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #14 (1988).


----------



## Shade (Nov 21, 2007)

Drumming (Su):  As a full-round action, a ventriloquist puppet can beat a rhythm on any solid surface.   After three consecutive rounds of drumming, any creature that can hear the drumming must succeed on a DC X Will save or be confused (as the spell) for as long as the puppet continues to drum and for 1d4+1 rounds thereafter.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

Spell-Like Abilities:  6/day--ventriloquism (DC X); 1/day--command (DC X), greater invisibility, hypnotism (DC X), suggestion (DC X).  Caster level Xth.  The save DCs are Charisma-based.


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## Shade (Nov 27, 2007)

Ability scores of other puppets:

Conjurer Puppet: Str 6, Dex 14, Con -, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 14
Stun Puppet: Str 13, Dex 11, Con -, Int 6, Wis 11, Cha 14

Int should definitely be higher since it possesses its former owner's intelligence.


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## Shade (Nov 28, 2007)

Thoughts on the previous two posts?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

I think the mental stats, except Int as noted, look good (maybe set Int around 15-16?).  I'd do something like Str 10, Dex 12, which takes care of the +1 to init.  Then 1d6 slam damage for the fists? (That seems a bit high, so do we need Imp Nat Attack?)

Edit: Drumming and the SLAs look good.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

I bumped the Cha a bit over the other puppets since it is more reliant on SLAs.

How about having the prereqs require the brain of an arcane spellcaster?



> saves as 16th-level magic-user




Bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities?   Or literally set its saves equal to a 16th-level wizard (Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +10)?   Or something else to account for the difference between its current saves and these bonuses (+4/+3/+9)?

We could give it the dwarf's +2 bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities, boost Wis 16 to to help increase the Will save, and give it Iron Will as a bonus feat, netting Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +8.   Of course, it is immune to mind-affecting effects already, so the Will save might not need to be that high.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> I bumped the Cha a bit over the other puppets since it is more reliant on SLAs.
> 
> How about having the prereqs require the brain of an arcane spellcaster?




Those sound good, and I love the brain prereq!



> Bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities?   Or literally set its saves equal to a 16th-level wizard (Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +10)?   Or something else to account for the difference between its current saves and these bonuses (+4/+3/+9)?
> 
> We could give it the dwarf's +2 bonus on saves against spells and spell-like abilities, boost Wis 16 to to help increase the Will save, and give it Iron Will as a bonus feat, netting Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +8.   Of course, it is immune to mind-affecting effects already, so the Will save might not need to be that high.  Thoughts?




That could work, though I wonder if 16th level wizards had such high saves in 1e (or whichever edition that is).  Maybe we could go for some sort of compromise?  I'm not sure.


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## Mortis (Dec 1, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Of course, it is immune to mind-affecting effects already, so the Will save might not need to be that high.  Thoughts?



I wonder if the initial intention was that it is due to constructs being mindless that they have that immunity? IMO it doesn't really make any sense for intelligent constructs (and undead - where I think we've discussed this before  ) to have then immunity.
Still, that's the rules... 

That being said, I don't think that they need a Will score that high.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

I'm guessing that it is a byproduct of not possessing an actual mind (even if they are not truly "mindless" in the non-intelligent sense).

How about Wis 13, keep Iron Will as bonus feat, drop the dwarflike bonus vs. spells?


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## Mortis (Dec 3, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> How about Wis 13, keep Iron Will as bonus feat, drop the dwarflike bonus vs. spells?



Works for me.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Caster level for SLAs?  I'd argue that this should be higher than its HD, due to the "absorbed" spells from a decent spellcaster.  Maybe 10th?

Skills: 40
Concentration, Knowledge (arcana), Spellcraft all seem good options.

Feats: Iron Will (B), 2 more
Assuming caster level 10th, it could take Quicken SLA for a 1st-level spell, like ventriloquism, command, or hypnotism.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2007)

10th seems good.

Let's max out those three.  Perform (percussion) and maybe one other?  If we go for the perform, do you want to let it make a perform check in lieu of the usual DC for drumming?

I like quicken SLA, probably for ventriloquism, though I'm not of strong mind about that.  No good brainstorm for the last one, though.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Max ranks in Listen?  (An ear for music...)

For the third feat, how about Combat Casting?  Since it has no Con bonus, it could use the help.


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## freyar (Dec 3, 2007)

Good choices.

So, what did you think about the perform check for drumming?  We could use 

Drumming (Su): As a full-round action, a ventriloquist puppet can beat a rhythm on any solid surface. After three consecutive rounds of drumming, any creature that can hear the drumming must succeed on a Will save or be confused (as the spell) for as long as the puppet continues to drum and for 1d4+1 rounds thereafter. The save DC is Charisma-based and is equal to DC15 or the puppet's perform check, whichever is higher.


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## Shade (Dec 3, 2007)

Perfect.    

Updated.

CR 3?


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2007)

I think CR 3 is reasonable, sure.  Looks pretty much done!


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> and is equal to DC15 or the puppet's perform check, whichever is higher.



Why not just base it on the perform check?, it will only be less than DC15 if he rolls 3 or less.

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Mortis said:
			
		

> Why not just base it on the perform check?, it will only be less than DC15 if he rolls 3 or less.




Good point, and that's simpler.


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Updated.

All done?


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## Mortis (Dec 4, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> All done?



We can simplify it even more as perform checks are Cha based anyway.
So instead of 
'The save DC is Charisma-based and is equal to the puppet's Perform check.' 
why not just have
'The save DC is equal to the puppet's Perform check'?

Regards
Mortis


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2007)

Brilliant!  Updated.


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## freyar (Dec 4, 2007)

Looks done.  I can totally imagine some group of adventurers destroying a bunch of these things and then finding out how they were made.   Should really bring this to the attention of James Jacobs, since it seems like just the kind of thing they like for Pathfinder.


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

JJ would definitely like them.    

NEXT!

Crystal Golem

Your attention is suddently drawn to the sound of tinkling glass coming from within the room.  As you turn your light in the direction of the sound, it reflects off a dazzling, man-shaped figure approaching you with rapid steps.  The whole figure seems made of clear crystal or glass.  Meanwhile, the vapors from the staircase are rapidly filling the room, already obscuring the ceiling.

Crystal golem: INT non; AL N; AC 4; MV 12' HD 9; hp 40; THAC0 11; #AT 1; Dmg 2d10; SA color spray on one opponent within 20' every other round; SD +2 or better weapon to hit, immune to all spells except shatter (causes 3d8 hp damage) and mending (restores it to full hit points); SZ M; ML 20; XP 6,000; new monster.

The crystal golem is shaped like a stylized man with sharp features.  It is tall and slender but is not two dimensional like the glass golem (MC10).  It attacks using its sharp hands (causing both cutting and bludgeoning damage).  Blunt magical weapons cause normal damage to it.

From Dungeon #42 (1993).


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## freyar (Dec 5, 2007)

DR 10/bludgeoning and magic?

Color Ray (Su): Every 2 rounds, a crystal golem may make a ranged touch attack against a single opponent within 20 feet (no range increment).  If the attack hits, the target suffers the effects of a color spray spell.

Should we make that a swift action?


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## Shade (Dec 5, 2007)

Nice.    

Looking towards ability scores...

Stained Glass Golem (M): Str 13, Dex 10, Con --, Int 4, Wis 13, Cha 7
Psion-Killer (Crystal Golem)(L): Str 31, Dex 10, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1
Ruby Golem (L): Str 23, Dex 12, Con -, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 1
Diamond Golem (L): Str 31, Dex 12, Con -, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 1
Emerald Golem (L): Str 26, Dex 12, Con -, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 1

I suppose we need to decide on Medium or Large first.


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## freyar (Dec 6, 2007)

I think I'd go with medium based on the description, but it isn't completely clear.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

In that case...

Str 13-23, Dex 12-14, Con -, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 1


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## freyar (Dec 10, 2007)

I'd go with Dex 14 and Str on the low end, maybe 14-15, since it just sounds kind of fragile.


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## Shade (Dec 10, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.


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## Shade (Dec 11, 2007)

> immune to all spells except shatter (causes 3d8 hp damage) and mending (restores it to full hit points)




How's this?

Immunity to Magic (Su): Crystal golems are immune to all spells or spell-like abilities that allow spell resistance, except as follows:

A shatter spell deals damage as normal to a crystalline creature.

A mending spell heals 1d6 points of damage to the golem, while a make whole spell heals all of its lost hit points.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Sounds good.

CR 6?

Organization: Solitary or Cluster (2d4)?

7ft tall and 400lbs?  It is supposed to be skinny, right?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

I agree with all that except the CR.  I think they should be CR 7, since they are as deadly (if not deadlier) than a flesh golem at the same HD.

No construction given.  Color spray seems like a no-brainer. Stained glass golem requires only geas/quest and limited wish.   Maybe keen edge as well?


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

That all sounds good to me.  Cost?  Maybe 400lbs of crystal worth 2000gp?


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## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

How does this look?

A crystal golem’s body is constructed from 400 pounds of crystal worth 2,000 gp. Assembling the body requires a DC 14 Craft (sculpting) check or a DC 14 Craft (stonemasonry) check.

CL 11th; Craft Construct, color spray, geas/quest, keen edge, caster must be at least 11th level; Price 20,000 gp; Cost 11,000 gp + 800 XP.


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## freyar (Dec 12, 2007)

Looks good to me.  All done, then?


----------



## Shade (Dec 12, 2007)

I think so!  We're getting close to a "10-pack" of constructs for upload.


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

*Coral Beast*
Freq:  Very rare
# App: 1
AC: 0
Move: 9"
HD: 10
% in Lair: 90%
Treasure Type:  See below
# Att: 2
Dmg/Att: 3-18/3-18
SA: Surprise, stunning
SD: Camouflage
MR: Standard
Int: High
Alignment:  Neutral evil
Size: L (10' tall)
Psionics:  NIl
Level/XP Value:  X/2850 + 14 per hp

The coral beast is a large, vaguely humanoid creature that dwells in coral reefs.  Its hard, spiny body provides not only excellent protection and camouflage, but a powerful weapon.  The exoskeleton of a coral beast resembles the material of a coral reef, so that when it is encountered near an actual reef, it is 97% undetectable.  Away from its coral lair, it is undetectable only 75% of the time.

When attacking, the coral beast lies in wait until its victim is least expecting an attack or is otherwise rendered helpless.  It then springs out and attacks by battering the victim with its sharp, armlike appendages.  An additional stunning blow is used if the victim is surprised; a hit then indicates the victim is stunned for 1d4+4 rounds in addition to taking 3-18 hp damage.  Any treasure found is incidental, left behind by the coral beast's victims.

From Dungeon #6 (1987)


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## freyar (Dec 17, 2007)

Monstrous Humanoid (aquatic)?

Big hide bonus and even bigger in a coral reef?


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## Shade (Dec 17, 2007)

Yep.  Either a hide bonus or the camouflage ability.

High Int is 13-14.   I could see decent Wisdom as well.

A 10-1/2-foot tall hill giant is Abilities: Str 25, Dex 8, Con 19.
A 9-foot-tall troll is Str 23, Dex 14, Con 23.

So maybe Str 23, Dex 13, Con 20, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 11?


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Abilities look good.  Where is camouflage from?


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

Added to Homebrews.

Examples of camouflage ability...

Camouflage (Ex): Since an assassin vine looks like a normal plant when at rest, it takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice it before it attacks.

Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version.

Camouflage (Ex): A juvenile nabassu has the ability to change the coloration of its flesh between various shades of black, gray, and brown. As a result, it gains a +8 circumstance bonus on Hide checks made in underground or barren environments.

The Hide bonus method would work, too, though, as evidence by the similar "hide in its environs" vine horror...

Skills: Vine horrors have a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard and can always choose to take 10 on Swim checks, even if distracted or endangered. *Vine horrors have a +15 racial bonus on Hide checks in swamps or other areas with noticeable concentrations of algae.


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## freyar (Dec 18, 2007)

Well, the mechanics are all sort of similar.  Effectively, it gets an extra bonus to hide in coral (in this case).  The assassin vine version does get rid of one die roll for the DM, I guess.  I say we go for a +4 hide bonus generally, increasing to +8 or +12 in a coral reef.  If we want, we can then add an additional check required to distinguish it from moving coral. Not sure here.


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## Shade (Dec 18, 2007)

Another idea just occurred to me...what if it gets total concealment (50%) when standing still in coral, and partial concealment (20%) when moving through coral?


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Shade said:
			
		

> Another idea just occurred to me...what if it gets total concealment (50%) when standing still in coral, and partial concealment (20%) when moving through coral?




That's fun!  So a +4 hide bonus, then this.  Call if camouflage as well, or something else?


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## Shroomy (Dec 19, 2007)

Wouldn't something like a gargoyle's freeze ability work for this critter?


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> Wouldn't something like a gargoyle's freeze ability work for this critter?




That's also a very good idea.  Maybe the best one yet, actually.


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## Shade (Dec 19, 2007)

Good suggestion.  Let's combine some of these ideas:

Coral Camouflage (Ex): When remaining still on a coral reef, a coral beast blends in nearly perfectly.  An observer must succeed on a DC X Spot check to notice the coral beast is really alive.

While moving in areas of coral, a coral beast gains concealment.  While in any terrain that is predominantly coral, coral beast can use the Hide skill even while being observed. 

Skills: Coral beasts have a +x racial bonus on Hide checks. *The Hide bonus increases by +8 when a coral beast is concealed against a background of coral.


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## freyar (Dec 19, 2007)

Nice!


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

> An additional stunning blow is used if the victim is surprised; a hit then indicates the victim is stunned for 1d4+4 rounds in addition to taking 3-18 hp damage.




How's this?

Stunning Ambush (Ex):  If a coral beast successfully hits a flat-footed opponent, the victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be stunned for 1d4+4 rounds.   The save DC is Strength-based.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Looks good, and the DC is 21 for what we have now.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

Attack: "sharp, armlike appendage" +15 melee (3d6+7)
Full Attack: 2 "sharp, armlike appendages" +15 melee (3d6+7)

Call 'em claws for simplicity's sake?

Skills: 4 at 13 ranks (52 total)(Swim +8 from swim speed)
Feats: 4

Environment: Any aquatic?

Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: x
Alignment: Always (?) neutral evil


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

Claws is good.

Skills: Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently or Listen?, Spot

Feats: Combat Reflexes?, Improved Critical (claws), Imp Nat Attack (do we need this to get the large damage?), Power Attack?  You can tell I don't have great ideas for this one.

Maybe warm aquatic, since that's where coral usually is.

Standard treasure, I guess.  These have enough Int to value stuff.

I'd slightly prefer usual on the AL, but I don't mind much either way.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

I replaced Combat Reflexes with Improved Initiative to increase their chances of stunning ambush.  The other feats look good.

Usually NE works for me.

Let's drop Intimidate and just go max ranks in Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Spot.

Spot DC for Coral Camouflage?  (Gargoyle was 20)

CR 7?  They appear about as tough as a hill giant.


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## freyar (Dec 20, 2007)

I approve.


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## Shade (Dec 20, 2007)

Weight?  A hill giant is 10-1/2 feet tall and weighs 1,000 pounds.  These things are 10 feet tall, and are made of coral.

Level Adjustment:
+2 for +10 natural armor
+1 for  natural weapons deal more damage than a simple or martial weapon it could wield in one hand
+1 for reach
+1 for Unbalanced Ability Scores
+1 for stunning ambush
-----------------------
+6 total


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## freyar (Dec 21, 2007)

Hmmm.  I have no idea how dense coral is when living, though it's quite light when dead.  I tried looking on wikipedia, but that was no help.  Maybe go at 1/2 density, so 500 lb?  One thing I learned, though, is that corals can live in quite cold water, so let's change the environment back to any aquatic.


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2007)

Sounds good.

Done?


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## freyar (Dec 31, 2007)

I'd say so.  Strange how these are so intelligent but seem to be solitary, animalistic hunters.  Someone should write up a civilization for them! But maybe not me.


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## Shade (Dec 31, 2007)

freyar said:
			
		

> I'd say so.  Strange how these are so intelligent but seem to be solitary, animalistic hunters.  Someone should write up a civilization for them! But maybe not me.




They truly are odd.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

Next!

Bark (a spriggan) has been working his malicious evil against the faerie folk without fear of retribution because of his servants--a band of shikes.  Shikes are a breed of evil faeries.  They are very small, usually no larger than four inches tall, and covered by a silvery chitinous shell that looks almost like full plate armor.  Their wings are like those of beetles, folding out from beneath hinged back shells, while their heads resemble Trojan helms with broad, razor-sharp crests.  They attack by ramming their opponents, slicing through flesh and bone with their head crests.  Normal sprites and faeries are deathly afraid of these little monstrosities, and shikes hate all other faerie-folk, attacking them on sight.

Shikes (20): INT average (9); AL NE; AC 0; MV 6, fly 24 (A); HD 1-1; hp 4 each; THAC0 19; #AT 1; Dmg 1-3; SZ T (4" tall); ML 18; XP 65.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #76 (1999).


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## Shroomy (Jan 2, 2008)

A diminutive fey inflicting 1 point of damage with a headbutt is not threatening, but kind of funny.  Go with a swarm concept IMO.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

We could do that, or alternatively, play up the "razor sharp" nature of their helms and give them augmented critical and wounding.  We could also combine the too, making it a wounding swarm.


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## Shroomy (Jan 2, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> We could do that, or alternatively, play up the "razor sharp" nature of their helms and give them augmented critical and wounding.  We could also combine the too, making it a wounding swarm.




A critical for 2 points of damage is not exactly threatening either, , but the wounding is a good idea.  What level was the original adventure for, that may help guide us in determining how tough to make these suckers.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

Levels 1-2.


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## Shroomy (Jan 2, 2008)

I'd still go swarm and base them off the CR 2 bat swarm with its wounding ability.


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## Shade (Jan 2, 2008)

Sounds good.  They should gain natural armor to account for the plate-like chitin.   AC 0 translates to AC 20 by the conversion guide.

Modifying the bat swarm stats...

Diminutive Fey (Swarm)
Hit Dice: 3d6 (10 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 15 ft. (3 squares), fly 60 ft. (perfect)
Armor Class: 20 (+4 size, +2 Dex, +4 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-
Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Full Attack: Swarm (1d6)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Distraction, wounding
Special Qualities: Immune to weapon damage, low-light vision, swarm traits
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +5, Will +5
Abilities: Str 3, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 14, Cha 4
Skills: 30
Feats: 2
Environment: x
Organization: x
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Usually neutral evil?
Advancement: None
Level Adjustment: -

Int was given (9).  We should probably boost Cha to at least 9 as well.

I modified the speed by the conversion guidelines.


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## Shroomy (Jan 2, 2008)

I like the stats though AC 20 seems a little rough for a CR 2 monster.  Then again, pretty much only area of effect and splash weapons can harm it anyways, so maybe this is not such an important factor.  I agree that the Cha should be higher and I think that the alignment should be "Always NE" as these things seem to be pretty nasty.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 30
Feats: 2
Environment: Any forest?
Organization: x ("band" is mentioned if we need a term for mulitple swarms)


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

5 skills at 6 ranks each: Hide, Move Silently, Listen?, Spot?, ?

Feats: Imp. Init, Stealthy?


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

That all looks good.  The 5th skill could be Initmidate, Knowledge (nature), or Survival.


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## Shroomy (Jan 3, 2008)

How about the 5th skill being "Disguise" and then play up the fact that they can be mistaken for a beetle swarm (maybe a racial bonus to the skill).


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> How about the 5th skill being "Disguise" and then play up the fact that they can be mistaken for a beetle swarm (maybe a racial bonus to the skill).




That's a very cool idea.  Make the racial bonus apply only to pretending to be beetles.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Sounds good.  How about a +10 racial bonus when attempting to Disguise itself as a beetle swarm?


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## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

+10 works for me.


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Organization: Solitary, band (2–4 swarms), or army (11–20 swarms)?


----------



## freyar (Jan 3, 2008)

Yes, that sounds excellent!


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## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Updated.  Anything left?


----------



## Shroomy (Jan 3, 2008)

What about languages?  I'm assuming Sylvan is a given.


----------



## Shade (Jan 3, 2008)

Good catch.  Sylvan makes the most sense.  At Int 9, one language should suffice.


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

*Epadrazzil*
AC: 3
HD: 4+1***
Move: 120' (40')
Attacks: 2
Dmg:  1-4/1-4
# App: 1
Save as: Fighter 3 + special
Morale: 12
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Any
XP Value: 350

The epadrazzil is a scaled, apelike creature with unusually long arms.  The skin is brownish-grey, and the creature appears to have some reptilian origins.  The epadrazzil is a conjured guardian from a two-dimensional plane of existence.  Only a high-level magic-user has the ability to summon this creature to do his bidding.  To do so, the magic-user must create a special painting (AC 9; hp 20; half damage from weapon type) in the room whose contents the magic-user wishes the creature to guard.  The painting must be an exact mirror image of the room.  The epadrazzil is confined to this painting unless its services are required.  Any creature other than the epadrazzil's master that tampers with the contents of the room summons the creature from the painting.  The creature immediately attacks to capture the intruder.  The epadrazzil's great speed allows it to surprise 66% of the time (1-4 on 1d6).

Any hit from the creature paralyzes its victim unless a successful saving throw vs. paralysis is made.  Any victim hit by both attacks is grasped, picked up, and carried into the painting to remain in stasis until released.  The victim can be released by a dispel magic spell, a rod of cancellation, or by destroying the painting.  The latter results in the release of the epadrazzil from its bondage; it then returns to its own plane.  The epadrazzil can regenerate 2 hp per round that it remains in the painting.  All attacks on the creature while it is in the painting only damage the painting--not the epadrazzil.  The epadrazzil continues to attack the intruders until it is slain or until the room is cleared.  It is semi-intelligent and is immune to sleep, charm, and other mind-affecting spells.

From Dungeon Magazine #2 (1986).


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2008)

I'm guessing extraplanar magical beast on this one.  Should this have some sort of special disguise or hide ability when in its painting?


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

Either that or outsider.

Either a Hide bonus, Disguise bonus, or camouflage ability of some sort.


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2008)

Type isn't a big deal to me, but I'm not sure if this is an examplar of a particular plane or something else.  I guess I think of this like a fiendish/celestial creature, which is a magical beast.

Let's figure out some kind of camouflage ability.  This is too weird to be a usual hide bonus.


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## Shade (Jan 10, 2008)

I think magical beast should be fine.

Let's figure out ability scores:

"Semi-intelligent", taken literally, is Int 2-4.

Ape (L): Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Girallon (L): Str 22, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Legendary Ape (M):  Str 30, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11


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## freyar (Jan 10, 2008)

Since this thing is sort of 2D, should we tone down the physical abilities a little?  Maybe Str 19, Dex 18, Con 12?

As an aside, that girallon doesn't have the normal average array!


----------



## Shade (Jan 11, 2008)

That sounds fine.  Why the Dex boost, though?


----------



## freyar (Jan 13, 2008)

Well, it's very thin, so shouldn't it be flexible?   Mostly just compensating a little.


----------



## Shade (Jan 14, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jan 16, 2008)

Claw damage should include paralysis with a Fort save DC (Con-based).  Might want to give it Ability Focus (paralysis).  Also:

2D Healing (Su): An epadrazzil has fast healing 2 while within its painting (or on its home plane).

I could see taking out the home plane from that if we want to say that the fast healing is a property of the magic in the painting.


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## Shade (Jan 16, 2008)

Looks good.



> Any hit from the creature paralyzes its victim unless a successful saving throw vs. paralysis is made. Any victim hit by both attacks is grasped, picked up, and carried into the painting to remain in stasis until released. The victim can be released by a dispel magic spell, a rod of cancellation, or by destroying the painting. The latter results in the release of the epadrazzil from its bondage; it then returns to its own plane.




Entrapment (Ex?):  It an epadrazzil hits the same opponent with both claw attacks in a single round, it may immediately make a grapple check as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity.  If the check succeeds, the victim is carried into the painting and is placed in a state of suspended animation.  This functions as the temporal stasis spell, except the victim can also be released by destroying the painting.


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## freyar (Jan 17, 2008)

I think this is good, but it should probably be Su.


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## Shade (Jan 17, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I think this is good, but it should probably be Su.




Good point.

How do we want to handle the painting?


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2008)

> To do so, the magic-user must create a special painting (AC 9; hp 20; half damage from weapon type) in the room whose contents the magic-user wishes the creature to guard. The painting must be an exact mirror image of the room. The epadrazzil is confined to this painting unless its services are required. Any creature other than the epadrazzil's master that tampers with the contents of the room summons the creature from the painting.






> The victim can be released by a dispel magic spell, a rod of cancellation, or by destroying the painting. The latter results in the release of the epadrazzil from its bondage; it then returns to its own plane.






> All attacks on the creature while it is in the painting only damage the painting--not the epadrazzil.






> The epadrazzil continues to attack the intruders until it is slain or until the room is cleared.




Painting:  The epadrazzil is bound to a special painting created as part of the ritual used to call it.  The painting is an exact mirror image of the room in which it hangs.  Should any creature other than the spellcaster who bound the epadrazzil (or anyone he commands it to allow enter?) enter the room, the epadrazzil immediately appears and attacks.  The epadrazzil retreats into the painting once the room is cleared of any unauthorized creatures.

The painting has X hit points and hardness X.  While within the painting, the epadrazzil cannot be harmed.  If the painting is destroyed, the epadrazzil returns to its home plane and does not return.

------------------

Should the epadrazzil be able to only partially leave the painting, and thereby gain cover?


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  Maybe say "or other designated creature" when talking about who can enter the room.

Probably no hardness and 2 hp for the canvas of the painting.  We could make comments about other "canvases," but it's probably best to leave that to the DM.


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## freyar (Jan 18, 2008)

Missed the last bit.  I think the epadrazzil should be either in or out of the painting.  None of this yo-yo stuff.


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## Shade (Jan 18, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Looks pretty good.  Maybe say "or other designated creature" when talking about who can enter the room.




Cool.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Probably no hardness and 2 hp for the canvas of the painting.  We could make comments about other "canvases," but it's probably best to leave that to the DM.




That makes the epadrazzil incredibly vulnerable, though.  It took "half damage from weapon type", so that seems to support hardness or damage reduction x/magic.  The painting could have been magically enhanced.  Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jan 19, 2008)

I see what you're saying.  Let's see.  We're looking at probably CR 2-3, 4 tops, so DR X/magic will be hard to overcome, if people even think to attack the painting (esp if their friend is inside!).  Why don't we go with a mix of things like DR 5/magic, hardness 5, and 10 hp?  We can also list a knowledge (arcana) (or spellcraft?) check needed to learn that destroying the painting returns the epadrazzil to its home plane and release any entrapped characters.  DC of 20 or something, once you've already identified the epadrazzil via a knowledge check.


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## Shade (Jan 22, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 7
Feats: 2



> The epadrazzil's great speed allows it to surprise 66% of the time (1-4 on 1d6).




Spot 7?

Feats:  Improved Initiative, Skill Focus (Spot)?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

I guess so.  I don't think Listen makes as much sense, since it's stuck in the painting most of the time.  So Skill Focus seems better than Alertness.

Looking pretty good.  What do you think for the CR?  2 or 3?

Advancement: 5-12 HD (Large)?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

I'd say CR 3, maybe even 4.  Paralysis and possible stasis is pretty deadly.

An epadrazzil stands 6 feet tall and weighs 50 pounds?

Epadrazzils speak ...  (Nothing?  Its own language?  Understands commands of creator?)

Entrapment (Su): It an epadrazzil hits the same opponent with both claw attacks in a single round, it may immediately make a grapple check as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the check succeeds, the victim is carried into the painting and is placed in a state of suspended animation. This functions as the temporal stasis spell, except the victim can also be released by destroying the painting.

Fort negates (like the spell)?  Con-based?

Paralysis (Ex): A creature hit by an epadrazzil's claw attack must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be paralyzed for X rounds. The save DC is Constitution-based.

2d4 rounds like carrion crawler?

Did we want to revisit the camouflage idea upthread, or simply make them undetectable while in the painting?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Let's go with CR4, then, and bump things up if necessary.

Height & weight are good.

I'd go with understand commands of summoner.

Let's allow the fort save against entrapment, con-based.

2d4 rounds is good for paralysis.

Let's do 

Painted Camouflage (Ex): While within it's painting, an epadrazzil appears to be nothing more than pigment on canvas.  A DC 20 spot check is required to notice that the epadrazzil is actually a creature.

How's that look?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Looks good.  Updated.

Shall we work on a spell/ritual to bind the creature?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Let's go with CR4, then, and bump things up if necessary.

Height & weight are good.

I'd go with understand commands of summoner.

Let's allow the fort save against entrapment, con-based.

2d4 rounds is good for paralysis.

Let's do 

Painted Camouflage (Ex): While within it's painting, an epadrazzil appears to be nothing more than pigment on canvas.  A DC 20 spot check is required to notice that the epadrazzil is actually a creature.

How's that look?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Double-post, or did I miss something to which you were trying to draw my attention?


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Double-post, or did I miss something to which you were trying to draw my attention?




Double post due to one of those EN World database errors...  

I guess there should in fact be some kind of spell to summon and bind these.  It's probably a stock spell, but what level do we think it should be?  Wiz/Sor 5-6?


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## Shade (Jan 23, 2008)

Lesser planar binding is 5th-level, and could cover its HD, but since the epadrazzil doesn't have the same options to resist/escape, I could see bumping it to 6th.


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## freyar (Jan 23, 2008)

Ok, so that's an 11th level BBEG and CR 4 monster.  I guess that's not too much of a stretch if there's something else in the room.  Let's go with 6th and modify lesser planar binding.


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## Shade (Jan 24, 2008)

How does this look?

Bind Epadrazzil
Conjuration (Calling) [see text]
Level: Sor/Wiz 5 
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 10 minutes 
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels); see text 
Target: One epadrazzil
Duration: Instantaneous 
Saving Throw: None 
Spell Resistance: No

This spell calls an epadrazzil from its two-dimensional home plane and binds it to a special painting.  The epadrazzil is confined to this painting unless its services are required.  It will not leave the room upon which its painting is based.  If the painting is somehow removed from the room without the epadrazzil being slain, the epadrazzil is instantly transported back into the painting and will not leave it until it is restored to its original location.  Should the painting be destroyed, the epadrazzil is immediately freed and returns to its home plane.

The epadrazzil that appears shares the same alignment as the spellcaster who summoned it.  A calling spell used to call a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful creature is a spell of that type. 

It is believed that higher-level versions of this spell exist to call greater epadrazzils.

Material Component:  A special painting (worth at least xxxx gp) which creates a mirror image of the room in which it is to be placed.


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Looks good.  The similar CR copper automaton costs 5000gp to construct, so maybe a similar price for the painting?


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## Shade (Jan 25, 2008)

Yep, that sounds about right.

Updated.

How's it look?


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## freyar (Jan 25, 2008)

Looks done!


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

*Spirit Leopard:*  AC -2; MV 18; HD 15; hp 85; THAC0 5; #AT 3 (claw/claw/bite); Dmg 1d6+4/1d6+4/5d4; SA spells, bite; SD +2 or better weapons to hit, 30% magic resistance, immune to charm and hold spells; ML 20; AL NE.

This is a personal servant of Kazhak, who hails from an alternate Prime Material Plane.  Since the spirit leopard is a creature of a Prime Material plane, it cannot be turned by clerics.  The spirit leopard will try to destroy the PCs.  If it is slain, the spirit leopard vanishes and returns to its home world.

The spirit leopard looks like a leopard but is larger than a cave bear.  Its eyes sparkle with intelligence, and its upper fangs are long like those of a sabertooth cat.  Its claws are very long and cannot be completely sheathed.

The spirit leopard has several special abilities.  Its leaping ability allows it to move anywhere in the room in only seconds.  Due to its size, it can attack three different opponents at once if they are to its front or sides.  Once every five rounds, it can direct a blasting roar at one opponent, who must pass a wisdom check on 1d20 or else be stunned and helpless for three rounds.  The spirit leopard has 120' infravision and can detect invisible objects at will.

The spirit leopard's most deadly attack is its bite.  On a natural to-hit roll of 18 or 19, the bite does double damage, and the opponent will be held fast in the mouth.  The spirit leopard automatically does normal bite damage to the held victim every round thereafter.  On a natural to-hit roll of 20, all of the above occurs, and the victim is drained of one level of experience in the first round of biting. 

The spirit leopard has a number of spell-like powers that can be cast one per round:  dispel magic, fear (as a wand of fear), suggestion, darkness 15' radius.

NOTE:  Kazhak is a lawful-evil god of power, wealth, and secrecy (very similar to Tezcatilopoca, from Legends & Lore, page 35), whose holy animal and personal symbol is a spotted leopard.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #22 (


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

First things first: outsider (native) or magical beast?


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## Shade (Feb 11, 2008)

Technically, it would be "extraplanar", since it is from another Material Plane, rather than another Material Plane world.  

I'm thinking outsider, rather than magical beast, solely because it reforms on its plane, thus indicating it being a part of its plane.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Feb 11, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> I'm thinking outsider, rather than magical beast, solely because it reforms on its plane, thus indicating it being a part of its plane.   Thoughts?




Depends, I guess.  Does it reform on its plane due to its intrinsic powers or because it is summoned by servants of Kahzak?  Is it unique?  I guess I could see going either way depending on how we want to answer these questions.  Also, if we go outsider, maybe we should drop the native subtype.


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## Shroomy (Feb 12, 2008)

I think it is definitely an outsider given this comment:  "Since the spirit leopard is a creature of a Prime Material plane, it cannot be turned by clerics."  Could cleric turn outsiders in 1e or 2e (I can't remember if this issue was 1st or 2nd edition).


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## GrayLinnorm (Feb 12, 2008)

I believe they could turn demons and devils (as "special") in 1e.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Yep.  Outsider it is, then.

Since it is "larger than a cave bear", which in 3e is a dire bear, then it is bigger than this:

A typical dire bear is 12 feet long and weighs as much as 8,000 pounds.

Increasing a leopard to Large yields the following stats:

Str 24, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Full Attack: Bite (1d8+7) and 2 claws (1d4+3)
+3 natural armor

The bite damage obviously must be improved, and its mental stats need to be improved, since it is intelligent and uses spell-like abilities.   Maybe...

Str 24, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 17?

AC translates to 22, so natural armor should probably be increased, and Dex could be increased if we want.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

Well, I could see +7 natural armor (same as dire bear) and Dex 21, or, since it's an Outsider, we could go for something funky like +5 natural armor, Dex 19, and deflection equal to Cha bonus (call it Otherworldly Grace or something).  What do you think?


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I picked the increase Dex and natural armor option for simplicity's sake, as this critter is already ability-heavy.

Speaking of abilities, retain all this?

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.

Pounce (Ex): If a leopard charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.

Rake (Ex): Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d3+1.

Skills: Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Jump checks and a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks. Leopards have a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A leopard can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened.


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## freyar (Feb 12, 2008)

Improved Grab may, in fact, be the best way to deal with this:


> The spirit leopard's most deadly attack is its bite. On a natural to-hit roll of 18 or 19, the bite does double damage, and the opponent will be held fast in the mouth. The spirit leopard automatically does normal bite damage to the held victim every round thereafter. On a natural to-hit roll of 20, all of the above occurs, and the victim is drained of one level of experience in the first round of biting.




But then I guess I would drop Rake and give whatever ability lets a critter chew someone it's got grabbed.  Not sure about the level drain.

I'd say Pounce is good, as are the skill bonuses.


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## Shade (Feb 12, 2008)

Let's keep the rake since it is a leopard after all.  How's this?

Augmented Critical (Ex): The spirit leopard's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit.  On a natural attack roll of 20 with its bite attack, the spirit leopard may also use its energy drain attack.

Energy Drain (Su):  On a natural attack roll of 20 with its bite attack, the spirit leopard's bite also bestows one negative level.  The DC is X for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the spirt leopard gains 5 temporary hit points.

Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a spirit leopard must hit with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.  Additionally, it deals automatic bite damage each round it maintains the hold.


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

Looks good.

SLAs: Darkness, Dispel Magic, and Fear (or is the wand closer to Cause Fear?) at will.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> SLAs: Darkness, Dispel Magic, and Fear (or is the wand closer to Cause Fear?) at will.




Already got you covered (I went with fear).



> SD +2 or better weapons to hit, 30% magic resistance, immune to charm and hold spells




DR x/magic?  Probably 10 or 15/magic based on its high HD.



> The spirit leopard has several special abilities.  Its leaping ability allows it to move anywhere in the room in only seconds.




It inherited a +8 bonus on Jump checks from regular leopard, and gains an additional +8 due to its land speed.   And it has pounce.  Will that suffice?



> Once every five rounds, it can direct a blasting roar at one opponent, who must pass a wisdom check on 1d20 or else be stunned and helpless for three rounds.




How's this?

Blasting Roar (Su):  Once every five rounds, a spirit leopard can unleash a targeted roar at one opponent within X feet.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Will save or be stunned for three rounds.  This is a sonic effect.  The save DC is Constitution-based.



> The spirit leopard has 120' infravision and can detect invisible objects at will.




Darkvision 120 ft. and low-light vision, plus this?

See Invisibility (Su): A spirit leopard continuously uses see invisibility as the spell (caster level 15th).


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

Let's go with DR 15/magic.  I think everything else looks good.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Skills: 10 at 18 ranks
Balance 18, Concentration 18, Hide 18, Jump 18, Listen 18, Knowledge (religion) 18, Move Silently 18, Spot 18, Survival 18, Tumble 18?

Feats: 6
Improved Initiative, Improved Multiattack, Multiattack, Power Attack, Stealthy, Track

Environment: Kazhak's Realm?

Challenge Rating: 15?

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 16-24 HD (Large); 25-35 HD (Huge); 36-45 HD (Gargantuan)?

A spirit leopard is over 12 feet long and weighs as much as X pounds.  (Dire bear weighs 12,000 pounds, and this is supposedly bigger)

Spirit leopards speak x.  (Since Khazak is a LE deity, maybe Infernal?)

120 feet for blasting roar?


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## freyar (Feb 13, 2008)

Looks good to me.  I think Infernal is a good language choice, and let's go with 13000 lb.


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## Shade (Feb 13, 2008)

Updated.

I love outsiders...they almost write themselves.


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## Shade (Feb 15, 2008)

*Spider, Crystal*
Freq: Very rare
# App: 1 (5% chance of 2)
AC: 4
Move: 15" *18"
HD:  4+4
% in Lair: 95%
Treasure:  Q (x3), see below
# Att: 1
Dmg: 1-3
SA: Crystalization
SD: Nil
MR: Standard
Int: Semi-
Align: Neutral
Size: M
Level/XP: IV/165 + 5/hp

This giant arachnid bears some distinct characteristics that separate it from other spiders.  In appearance, it looks as if it were made of glass or rock crystal.  The webs of this creature are stiff and thin, and have a crystalline glow.  It travels swiftly across its webs, almost like skating on ice.

The most dreaded power of this creature is in its bite.  Although its mandibles are small and rather weak, a bitten victim must save vs. petrification or suffer the following effecs:

Round 1-5: slows
Round 6-30: paralysis
Round 31+: crystallization

The slow effect reduces the victim's number of attacks and movement by one half; a victim is able to attack only during rounds 1, 3, and 5, at which point the victim becomes immobile.  The victim usually dies of suffocation by the fifth round of paralyzation, since the diaphragm (which works the lungs) is affected as well as all other muscles.  The body gradually stiffens as the spider's powerful venom crystallizes substances or replaces them with minerals.  A crystalized victim may be revived by ressurection, alter reality, a wish, or a potion of restoration.  Limited wish brings a victim back only temporarily; after a week the victim must save vs. petrification or begin to recrystalize.

The venom of the crystal spider loses its properties if outside of a body for more than one hour.  It cannot be used as an insinuative, contact, or ingestive poison.  No weapon has yet been developed that effectively duplicates the spider's injection method.

Crystal spiders have an affinity for gems of the transparent sort, and these are often found stored in web bundles in the centers of their webs.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #4 (1987)


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## Shroomy (Feb 16, 2008)

I actually think that this creature should be an elemental with the earth subtype.


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## Shade (Feb 18, 2008)

Shroomy said:
			
		

> I actually think that this creature should be an elemental with the earth subtype.




Agreed.


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

Me too. 

Looks like Con should be 18-19, Str probably average given the bite damage.  Dex 17 like a Medium monstrous spider?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

That all sounds good.

Int Semi equals 2-4.

Wis 11, Cha 11 like earth elementals?


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## freyar (Feb 19, 2008)

Sounds about right.

Do we want to treat the bite as a poison or some sort of slow-acting Su ability?


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## Shade (Feb 19, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Do we want to treat the bite as a poison or some sort of slow-acting Su ability?




Special ability, similar to what we're doing for the thousandtooth.

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Ok, then, let's try this:

Slow Petrifying Bite (Su): On a successful bite attack, the victim takes bite damage and must make a DC X Fortitude save. On a failed save, the victim must continue to save each round thereafter and is slowed (as the spell) and takes a cumulative 10-foot penalty to speed and a -2 penalty to Dexterity, but gains a +1 enhancement bonus to its natural armor as its skin begins to harden. A successful save after the initial save does not negate the effect, but prevents any further penalties and eventual petrification. If the target fails three consecutive saves, the victim is turned to stone permanently. The effect can be reversed by a stone to flesh effect at any time. If used before complete petrification, no saving throw is required to survive the transformation. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Pretty much a straight copy, but what do you think?


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

I think this one should be different.  It took far longer for the actual petrification to occur, and also had paralysis and potential suffocation along the way.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

True, I shouldn't cut corners.   Next try:

Slow Crystallizing Bite (Su): On a successful bite attack, the victim takes bite damage and must make a DC X Fortitude save. On a failed save, the victim is _slowed_ (as the spell) for five rounds.  On the sixth round, the victim is paralyzed and cannot breathe (see the DMG suffocation rules regarding characters who cannot breathe).  Paralysis lasts until 3 minutes after the bite attack, at which point the character is petrified.  Once crystallized, a victim may only be revived by _resurrection_, _true resurrection_, _miracle_, _wish_, or _greater restoration_.  _Limited wish_ also revives a crystallized victim, but the victim must make a new Fortitude save each week or begin to recrystallize.  The crystallization process can be halted before petrification by any of the spells listed above or _stone to flesh_, though _stone to flesh_ will not return a suffocated victim to life.  The save DC is Constitution-based.

I kind of winged the spells a little, but what do you think?  Too nasty given the likely CR?  Also, I went with Con rather than Cha for the DC because this is a venom of some sort.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Slight revision:

Crystallization (Su): On a successful bite attack, the crystal spider injects its powerful venom.  The victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be slowed (as the spell) for five rounds. On the sixth round, the victim is paralyzed and begins to suffocate (see the DMG for suffocation rules).  Three minutes later, the character is completely crystallized (treat as petrified). Once crystallized, a victim may only be revived by resurrection, true resurrection, miracle, wish, or greater restoration. Limited wish also revives a crystallized victim, but the victim must make a new Fortitude save each week or begin the crystallization process anew. The crystallization process can be slowed or halted before petrification by any of the spells listed above or delay poison, neutralize poison, or stone to flesh, though these spells will not return a suffocated victim to life. The save DC is Constitution-based.  Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

So the victim dies on the 8th round w/no Con checks?  Harsh!


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> So the victim dies on the 8th round w/no Con checks?  Harsh!




Yeah, that seems a bit harsh, and also defeats the purpose of the petrification, eh?

Let's just ditch the suffocation bit.  Instead, we could say that the victims throat crystallizes, preventing the use of speech, verbal comopnents, and command words.  Sound OK?


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Sounds fine to me.  We can also get rid of the bit about how certain spells will not return a suffocated victim to life.


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## Shade (Feb 20, 2008)

Take three:

Crystallization (Su): On a successful bite attack, the crystal spider injects its powerful venom. The victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or be slowed (as the spell) for five rounds. On the sixth round, the victim is paralyzed and its throat crystallizes, preventing the use of speech, verbal components, and command words. Three minutes later, the character is completely crystallized (treat as petrified). Once crystallized, a victim may only be revived by resurrection, true resurrection, miracle, wish, or greater restoration. Limited wish also revives a crystallized victim, but the victim must make a new Fortitude save each week or begin the crystallization process anew. The crystallization process can be slowed or halted before petrification by any of the spells listed above or delay poison, neutralize poison, or stone to flesh. The save DC is Constitution-based. Creatures with immunity to poison are unaffected, and creatures resistant to poison receive their normal bonus on their saving throws.


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## freyar (Feb 20, 2008)

Now that works, I think!


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

Borrowing from similar creatures...

Web (Ex): A crystal spider can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets of up to Medium size. The web anchors the target in place, allowing no movement.

An entangled creature can escape with a DC X Escape Artist check or burst the web with a DC X Strength check. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus. The web has 6 hit points, hardness 0, and takes double damage from fire.

Crystal spiders can create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square. They usually position these to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web, or they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing receive a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot-square section has 6 hit points, hardness 0, and takes double damage from fire.

A crystal spider can move across its own sheet web at its climb speed and can determine the exact location of any creature touching the web.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2008)

Looks good.  Spot at 7 ranks for the skills?  For feats, maybe Alertness and Ability Focus (web)?


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## Shade (Feb 21, 2008)

Sounds good, but let's put the Ability Focus on crystallization, since that's the critter's spotlight ability.

Updated.

Treasure (Qx3) translates to 3-12 gems.  So...
Treasure: No coins; standard goods (gems only); no items?

Advancement: 5-7 HD (Medium); 8-12 HD (Large)?

A crystal spider is 8 feet in diameter and weighs 600 pounds?  (Slightly less than medium earth elemental at 750 pounds)

Crystal spiders speak Terran?

A crystal spider can be summoned with a summon monster VI or summon nature's ally V spell.


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## freyar (Feb 21, 2008)

If we're putting ability focus on crystallization, then I think we need to up the CR.  A DC 18 Fort save is probably pretty tough at 2nd level, and I think this thing will be able to hit with its bite attack at that level, too.  Also, the spells to counter/reverse crystallization will not be cheap.  Maybe CR 4 to mitigate this a bit?


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

Good suggestion. I've made it CR 4.

Updated.

All finished?


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

All done.  Glad you're back!


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## Shade (Feb 26, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> All done.  Glad you're back!




Thanks!  I was dealing with ice storms and illnesses.  (Good RPG title, eh?)


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## freyar (Feb 26, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Thanks!  I was dealing with ice storms and illnesses.  (Good RPG title, eh?)




You could open a new publishing company!


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## Leopold (Mar 10, 2008)

what are we waiting for on this one?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2008)

Leopold said:
			
		

> what are we waiting for on this one?




Nothing.  It's finished.    

We generally don't have all the conversion threads "active" at one time.  We usually work on up to 10 of them at a time, but any more than that gets a bit difficult to track and drowns out any non-conversion posts from the front page.   If you have any requests, please post them in the "Current Conversion Requests" thread stickied at the top of this forum.


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## Shade (Mar 27, 2008)

When a scion perishes in the Shadow World near Mhelliviene, he becomes either a skelter or a zombire (50% chance of either) with no powers or special abilities beyond those listed below.

*Skelters*

The skelter is an emaciated creature resembling a lich, with its leathery skin drawn tightly over its bony frame.  The eyes of a skelter burn with an intense hatred for all life, and its voice is raspy and spiteful.  These guant creatures have a chilling touch similar to that of a spectre.  The attack inflicts 1d8 hp damage and drains one level of experience from the victim.  (A save vs. death magic negates loss.)  The energy drain is only temporary, and lost levels (and hit points) are restored at a rate of one level/day.  A non-blooded individual slain by a skelter (or drained of all levels) rises as a zombie under the skelter's control; a blooded victim rises as a free-minded skelter.

Skelter: INT very; AL CE; AC 6; MV 12; HD 2+3; THAC0 17; #At 1; Dmg 1d8; SA energy drain (see above); SD silver or magical weapons needed to hit; immune to cold, poison, paralysis, and death magic; MR immune to sleep, charm, hold, and fear-related magic; SZ M; ML 12; XP 650.  Skelters are turned as ghasts.  One vial of holy water causes them 2d4 hp damage.

Skelters and zombires can control mindless undead within 30 yards.  When slain, skelters and zombires moulder into piles of flesh and bone.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #59 (1996).


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Template or not?

There's this...



> When a scion perishes in the Shadow World near Mhelliviene, he becomes either a skelter or a zombire (50% chance of either) *with no powers or special abilities beyond those listed below.*




...but of course skeleton is a template too, and retains none of the original's abilities.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

I guess I'd feel like doing these as templates.  Is there any other background info?


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## Shade (Mar 28, 2008)

Not really.  Basically, they appear a way to make more powerful skeletons and zombies out of "blooded" creatures in the Birthright setting.


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## freyar (Mar 28, 2008)

Hmm, why don't we start with the skeleton template and add SAs?


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## Shade (Mar 31, 2008)

Hmmm...although I mentioned them as skeletal, the description proves me wrong:



> The skelter is an emaciated creature resembling a lich, with its leathery skin drawn tightly over its bony frame.




Maybe we can work backwards from the lich template?

Here's what we know we need:

Turned as ghast = +2 turn resistance

DR/silver or magic

Touch attack deals 1d8 damage plus energy drain.

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a spectre’s incorporeal touch attack gain two negative levels. The DC is 15 for the Fortitude save to remove a negative level. The save DC is Charisma-based. For each such negative level bestowed, the spectre gains 5 temporary hit points.

Immunity to Cold


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

Also able to control mindless undead within 90 ft (as a cleric?).  Anything else?  Allow the base creature to keep armor and weapon proficiency, class abilities (if not racial SA)?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

Sounds good.

Since bloodlines are in the SRD, should we make that prereq for creation?


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## freyar (Apr 1, 2008)

I don't know the old Birthright rules; is "blooded" anything like a bloodline?


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## Shade (Apr 1, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> I don't know the old Birthright rules; is "blooded" anything like a bloodline?




I found this from a review of Birthright:

The campaign itself is set up around the idea of the "Divine Right of Kings." In Cerilia, some individuals are "Blooded," possessed of innate powers granted by ancestors who were present at a cataclysmic Battle of the Gods centuries ago. The Old Gods didn't survive the battle, but their essences were instilled into their followers and persist today, inherited by their descendants. 

It is these Blooded individuals, called scions, who rule the various nations of Cerilia (and there are a lot of them,) called "Domains." Blooded persons also control various religious orders, guilds, and sources of magical power. If you aren't Blooded, the best you can hope for is to be a trusted underling to one of these powerful characters. 

This idea may have been taken too literally--there are real, substantial game benefits to being Blooded, even aside from the fact that it makes a character potentially qualified to rule a domain. However, the actual mechanics for this are very interesting and provide for a great deal of variation between Blooded characters. There are nearly 30 different Bloodline powers. How many of them a character has access to is dependent on his Bloodline strength, which is measured in points. 

In addition, each Bloodline is derived from one of the seven Old Gods who perished at the Battle of Mount Deismaar. Each of these derivations limits a Blooded character's access to certain powers. Also covered is the manner in which a Bloodline is inherited by one's children. It's also possible to "steal" a scion's Bloodline strength, if one scion kills another in a specific manner. This is similar to the idea developed in _Highlander_, but it's less of an all-or-nothing thing--the victor can usually gain only a point or two unless certain very rare magical weapons are used to commit the deed.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Using the SRD bloodlines makes sense then.  So the base creature must have a bloodline as in the SRD.  Do you want to limit it to Celestial, Demon, Devil, and Titan bloodlines as well (since it's from deities)?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

For simplicity's sake, let's just stick with a bloodline.  I believe some of the blooded in Birthright were descended from fey as well, and other bloodlines may have been possible.


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## freyar (Apr 2, 2008)

Fine by me, then.  Shall we start on the template?


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## Shade (Apr 2, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

How do we want to modify the ability scores, if at all?


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

Since Int is Very, maybe a +2 or +4 to Int.  Maybe a similar bump to Cha for the SAs.

Changes to the template as is that I'd make:
Reduce natural armor, since that's higher than the original AC.  Maybe +3?
Energy drain should only be 1 level.
Create spawn: slain by negative energy or energy drain only?
SA and SQ: does not retain those of base creature (except those from character classes?)


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

I agree with all that, except I'm not sure about losing the special abilities, despite this...



> When a scion perishes in the Shadow World near Mhelliviene, he becomes either a skelter or a zombire (50% chance of either) with no powers or special abilities beyond those listed below.




...I don't really see a reason to lose the existing SAs and SQs, especially considering that humanoids and monstrous humanoids rarely have any.   For example, I'd think a dwarf skelter would still possess stonecunning, an elf its racial bow proficiency, and so on.

I'm wondering if they just included that text since templates didn't exist back then, and it simplified things?


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## freyar (Apr 3, 2008)

Ahhh, let them keep their SAs.  Easier to calculate the CR bump, and they're nastier, too.


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## Shade (Apr 3, 2008)

Updated.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2?

Alignment: Usually or always chaotic evil?

Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +4?


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

+2, I think usually CE, +4 all sound good.  And let's go DR 10.


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Here's a start on a sample skelter:

Skelter, 5th-Level Human Fighter/1st-Level Demon Bloodline (major)
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 5d12 (32 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: x (+1 Dex, +3 natural, +x armor), touch x, flat-footed x
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+8
Attack: Touch +6 melee (1d8+4 plus energy drain) or +1 longsword +9 melee (1d8+4/19-20)
Full Attack: Touch +6 melee (1d8+4 plus energy drain) or +1 longsword +9 melee (1d8+4/19-20)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Command undead, create spawn, energy drain
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/silver or magic, darkvision 60 ft., demon affinity, immunity to cold and mind-affecting attacks, resistance to electricity 5, +2 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 13, Con -, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18
Skills: Climb +11, Jump +11, Move Silently +3
Feats: Power Attack (B), 2 more, 3 FBFs
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

Command Undead (Su): This skelter can rebuke or command undead as a 6th-level cleric.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a skelter's energy drain attack becomes a zombire in 1d4 rounds. Zombire spawn are under the command of the spectre that created them and remain enslaved until its death. Creatures possessing a bloodline slain by a skelter instead become free-willed skelters.

Demon Affinity (Ex):  Because of its bloodline, this skelter gains a +2 bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks made to interact with demons. 

Energy Drain (Su): Living creatures hit by a skelter's touch attack gain one negative level. For each such negative level bestowed, the skelter gains 5 temporary hit points.  The Fortitude save DC to remove the negative level after 24 hours is 17.  The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Is power attack the human bonus feat?  For the other feats, let's go with Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus (Longsword), Combat Expertise, and Improved Disarm.  Or whatever you think. 

Looking at this example, do you think it's a little weak for CR8?  A standard character has 3 fewer HD than CR because it has to spend a level on bloodline.  Maybe we should do something to boost hp or else reduce to CR +1.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Power Attack is a bonus feat from the demon bloodline.

Yeah, I agree that it is over-CR'ed.  But +1 seems almost too low for energy drain.

The bloodline level really hurts it, since it grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features. 

Hmmm...it we change the template to only be applicable to creatures with a "bloodline level", rather than simply a bloodline, that would prevent a 1st-level skelter to gain energy drain at CR 2-3.  Then we might be able to get away with +1.  It still feels uncomfortable, though.  Especially since the less powerful wight template is CR+3 and ghast is CR+2.

What if we instead refigured HD based on the total of its class levels and bloodline levels?  In this case, it would by a 6 HD creature at CR 8.  Of course, this would only increase its HP by 6.5 and wouldn't affect BAB, etc.

What if we gave it a +2 to Str and Dex as well, like many of the undead templates?  This would increase its attack modifiers by 1 to make up for the lost level.


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Power Attack is a bonus feat from the demon bloodline.




Shouldn't there be an additional feat from the human bonus, then, or does the bloodline remove that?



> Yeah, I agree that it is over-CR'ed.  But +1 seems almost too low for energy drain.
> 
> The bloodline level really hurts it, since it grants no increase in base attack bonus or base save bonuses, no hit points or skill points, and no class features.
> 
> ...




How about if we give it +2 Str and Dex and instead of adding HD give it unholy grace or whatever adds the Cha modifier to the hp at each HD?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> Shouldn't there be an additional feat from the human bonus, then, or does the bloodline remove that?




Good catch!  Also, the extra skill point/level (Swim?)



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> How about if we give it +2 Str and Dex and instead of adding HD give it unholy grace or whatever adds the Cha modifier to the hp at each HD?




Sounds good.


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## freyar (Apr 4, 2008)

Good, so is this one basically done then?


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## Steve Jung (Apr 4, 2008)

Are the skelters and zombires from Birthright considered the same creatures as the ones from the 1st edition module L1: The Secret of Bone Hill?


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## Shade (Apr 4, 2008)

Steve Jung said:
			
		

> Are the skelters and zombires from Birthright considered the same creatures as the ones from the 1st edition module L1: The Secret of Bone Hill?




Interesting...I'd forgotten that they had appeard in L1.

Looking now...



> Every creature in or under these ruins hates and fears living beings, and thus they will jealously guard their treasure troves and seek at every opportunity to destroy any intruders. The wraith was once a mighty, evil warlord who now acts in concert with the magic-user to further its own hate-filled purposes. Likewise, the skelter and zombire who roam this site (detailed below) are unique beings, once utterly evil henchman of the wraith in life but then physically destroyed and cursed with undead forms, sustained by the powerful evil of this ancient and diabolical spot.






> Zombire: (AC: 5, MV 12", HD 3 + 3, hp 18,#AT 1, D 2-12). The zombire is not slow like a zombie but might pretend to be so in order to deceive the party while approaching. A zombire is immune to hold, charm, sleep, and cold based spells, in addition to poison. It can be turned as per wraiths. In addition, the zombire, the animated corpse of a low-level magic-user, can cast the following spells:
> 
> First level:	magic missile, protection from good.
> 
> It carries 20 pp and a potion of fire resistance.






> Skelter: (AC: 6, MV 12", HD 2 + 2, hp 16, #AT 1, D 1-10). The skelter, like the zombire, is the animated remains of a once very evil low-level magic-user. It is immune to the same attack forms as listed for the zombire and can cast the following first level spells: shield, sleep. It can be turned as per wights and has 42 gp.




It appears that the author of the Dungeon Adventure used them for inspiration, and amped them up considerably.


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## Steve Jung (Apr 5, 2008)

That's what I thought, based on the Dungeon magazine description. Just one of those things.


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## Shade (Apr 7, 2008)

Updated.

I changed the longsword to ranseur so it better fit with the disarm feat chain freyar suggested.

All done?


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## freyar (Apr 7, 2008)

Nice!  Looks good!


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

When a scion perishes in the Shadow World near Mhelliviene, he becomes either a skelter or a zombire (50% chance of either) with no powers or special abilities beyond those listed below.

*Zombire*

The zombire looks like a normal zombie without the sluggishness.  Like the skelter, its eyes glow with intelligence and malice. It does not suffer penalties to initiative and is surprisingly agile.  The zombire lacks the energy-draining touch of the skelter, but it can assume gaseous form at will.  However, it cannot attack in this form and must revert to a corporeal state to inflict damage. (It cannot assume corporeal form and attack in the same round.)  The zombire's rake causes 1d8 hp damage, and the victim must save vs. paralysis or be frozen in place and unable to act for 2d6 rounds.  Zombires continue to attack frozen victims.  A non-blooded individual slain by a zombire rises as a zombie under the zombire's control; a blooded victim rises as a free-minded zombire.

Zombire: INT high; AL CE; AC 7; MV 12; HD 3+2; THAC0 17; #At 1; Dmg 1d8; SA paralyzing touch; SD assume gaseous form, silver or magical weapons needed to hit; immune to cold, poison, paralysis, and death magic; MR immune to sleep, charm, hold, and fear-related magic; SZ M; ML 14; XP 975. Zombires are turned as wraiths. Holy water inflicts 2d4 hp damage/vial.

Skelters and zombires can control mindless undead within 30 yards. When slain, skelters and zombires moulder into piles of flesh and bone.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #59 (1996).


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## freyar (Apr 23, 2008)

Make this a template based off the skelter?


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## Shade (Apr 23, 2008)

Yeah, I think so.  This should go relatively fast for that reason.

Main differences:


Paralysis instead of energy drain
Ability score adjustments probably closer to zombie's than skeleton's
DR x/slashing and silver rather than x/bludgeoning and silver


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Yeah, I'd agree.  DR 10?  If we do that, what does it look like?


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Using the skelter framework, I added variable slam damage based on size (as opposed to the skelter's touch attack that only dealt negative energy damage).

Since Int was "very" rather than "high", I dropped the Int bonus by 2.  I raised Str by 2, since zombies are generally stronger than skeletons, dropped the Dex bonus (but imposed no Dex penalty as normal for zombies), and left Cha unchanged.

Look OK?

We'll need to work on their paralysis ability.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Paralysis (Su): Any creature damaged by a zombire's slam attack must make a Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 2d6 rounds.  The save DC is Charisma-based.

How's that sound?


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

Looks good.

Challenge Rating: Same as the base creature +2?  (same as skelter)
Level Adjustment: Same as the base creature +4?  (same as skelter)

Anything else before we make the sample zombire?


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

We still need to give it gaseous form as an SLA at will.  I'd just say CL 5 since there's no reason to go with anything else.

CR and LA adjustments look good, so I think we can make a sample.  Base it off the same fighter as the skelter?


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

Just borrow the vampire's ability?

Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a vampire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

Sounds good, just replace vampire with zombire.  Then I think we can make the sample.


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## Shade (Apr 24, 2008)

Here we go.  We can swap feats, skills, weapons, armor, and bloodline if you'd like.

Zombire, 5th-Level Human Fighter/1st-Level Demon Bloodline (major)
Medium Undead (Augmented Humanoid)
Hit Dice: 5d12+20 (52 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
AC: 17 (+1 Dex, +3 natural, +3 +1 leather armor), touch 11, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+9
Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d8+5 plus paralysis) or +1 ranseur +11 melee (2d4+10/x3)
Full Attack: Slam +10 melee (1d8+5 plus paralysis) or +1 ranseur +11 melee (2d4+10/x3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft. 
Special Attacks: Command undead, create spawn, paralysis
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 10/silver and slashing, darkvision 60 ft., demon affinity, immunity to cold and mind-affecting attacks, resistance to electricity 5, +2 turn resistance, undead traits
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 13, Con -, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 18
Skills: Climb +13, Jump +13, Move Silently +3, Swim +13
Feats: Cleave, Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Improved Disarm, Power Attack (B), Weapon Focus (ranseur), Weapon Specialization (ranseur)
Climate/Terrain: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 8
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually chaotic evil
Advancement: By character class
Level Adjustment: +4

Command Undead (Su): This zombire can rebuke or command undead as a 6th-level cleric.

Create Spawn (Su): Any humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a zombire becomes a zombie in 1d4 rounds. Zombie spawn are under the command of the zombire that created them and remain enslaved until its death. Creatures possessing a bloodline slain by a zombire instead become free-willed zombires.

Demon Affinity (Ex): Because of its bloodline, this zombire gains a +2 bonus on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Perform checks made to interact with demons. 

Gaseous Form (Su): As a standard action, a zombire can assume gaseous form at will as the spell (caster level 5th), but it can remain gaseous indefinitely and has a fly speed of 20 feet with perfect maneuverability.

Paralysis (Su): Any creature damaged by this zombire's slam attack must make a DC 16 Fortitude save or be paralyzed for 2d6 rounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.

Unholy Toughness (Ex): A zombire gains a bonus to its hit points equal to its Charisma modifier x its Hit Dice.


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## freyar (Apr 24, 2008)

I'm fine with leaving it the same if you are.  Makes it easier.


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## Shade (Apr 25, 2008)

Updated.  I mixed it up a little.    

All done?


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## freyar (Apr 25, 2008)

Looks pretty good.  You just need to change Weapon Focus and Specialization over to scimitar and you're done.


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## Shade (Apr 28, 2008)

*The Priesthood of Maalpherus*

The dark god of disease and plague makes many demands of his priests.  Maalpherus requires total dedication to his cause, so his priests have few wordly goods.  The colors of the priesthood are dull browns and dark reds.  He disallows the use of edged weapons in combat, save those with edges that rip or tear flesh.  Most of the clerics at his temple in the Reaching Fens cary large maces with hooked spikes that resemble claws.  These weapons cause more damage (1d6+2) than do standard footman's maces.

The spheres of influence available to followers of Maalpherus are: All, Guardian (minor), Healing, Necromantic, Protection, and Sun (minor).  Priests may use only the reverse form of the Sun sphere and are strongly encouraged to use the reverse of Healing and Necromantic spheres. In fact, Maalpherus feels that only the strongest of his followers should survive, and priests are permitted to use true Healing only on themeselves.  They may not use this power even to heal comrades.  All priests of 5th level or greater receive a bonus spell from their god: cause disease.

*Children of Maalpherus*
Climate/Terrain: Any
Freq: Very Rare
Org: Nil
Activity Cycle: Night
Diet: Nil
Int: Non- (0)
Treasure: Nil
Alignment: Neutral
# App: 2-8
SD: Spell immunity
AC: 6
Movement: 6
HD: 4
THAC0: 17
# Att: 1
Dmg/Att: 1-8
SA: See below
MR: See below
Size: M (6' tall)
Morale: Special
XP Value: 650

The Children of Maalpherus are zombies created by the priesthood of the god of disease and plague.  As the corpses animated by the priests often come from those who have angered the god, these zombies are usually in even worse condition than others.  The bodies are often missing large amounts of flesh, hair, and even some limbs (although there is a practical limit due to movement and attack purposes.)  They, like most undead, are immune to sleep, charm, hold, death magic, poisons, mind affecting spells, and cold-based spells.  Crushing and piercing weapons cause no damage, and slashing weapon damage is regenerated at the rate of 1 hit point every two rounds.  They cannot regenerate damage cuased by fire, acid, or energy spells such as magic missile, lightning bolt, etc.  A vial of holy water inflicts 3-10 hp damage (non-regenerative) on thse creatures.  Children of Maalpherus are most often found in swamps, sewers, and other disease-ridden places.

In addition to the normal damage caused by these zombies, there is a 25% chance that the individual struck will also become infected with some sort of disease (dtermined by the DM).  Because of their strong tie to the powers of their god, the Children of Maalpherus are more powerful than normal zombies and so are turned as spectres.  To create such a zombie, a priest of Maalpherus must first cast cause disease on a corpse.  Then, within 24 hours, the priest must cast an animate dead spell (which affects only the one corpse).

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #57 (1996).


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

Start with a human zombie and work from there?  Seems like the main difference is the regeneration (or fast healing, not sure which) and disease.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

We could do that.  Any reason not to use a template, though?


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## freyar (Apr 29, 2008)

These just seemed specific enough ("As the corpses animated by the priests often come from those who have angered the god, these zombies are usually in even worse condition than others.") as not to need a template, but we can go either way.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

Couldn't a giant, or dragon, or manticore, for example, anger the god?

I'm fine either way, though.

Anyone else have an opinion?


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 29, 2008)

I'd rather see this as a specific creature.  One of the things I don't like about making skeletons and zombies templates is that a zombie created from a 1st level commoner is the same as one created from a 100th level wizard.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 29, 2008)

My vote is not-template. It seems pretty specific, as freyar argued.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 29, 2008)

The majority has spoken--a template it is not.   

So...take a Medium humanoid zombie, boost it to 4 HD and make other modification?

How does regeneration work with undead (in fact, can it?) since they are immune to nonlethal damage?


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## GrayLinnorm (Apr 30, 2008)

According to the Monster Manual, only creatures with a Constitution score can regenerate. We could give it fast healing, though.


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## demiurge1138 (Apr 30, 2008)

Really, really high fast healing, with elemental vulnerabilities.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

That sounds like a reasonable solution.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Fast healing 15 that cannot affect damage due to fire, acid, force, or holy water?


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## Shade (Apr 30, 2008)

Fast healing isn't generally limited, so maybe fast healing 15 and vulnerability (+50% damage) to acid, fire, and force effects.  We can list the special vulnerability to holy water separately.


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## freyar (Apr 30, 2008)

Mmm, ok, if we're using standard fast healing, I'd say cut it to fast healing 10.  Holy water usually does 2d4 pts of damage to undead.  Let's make these 50% more vulnerable to that too.


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

I'm agreeable to that.  Any objections?


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

Well, moving on while anyone else chimes in: 

Disease (Ex): Slimy doom -- slam, Fortitude DC X, incubation period 1 day, damage 1d4 Con (when damaged, a character must succeed on a second Fortitude saving throw or one point is Con drain instead).  The save DC is Cha-based.

How's that look?


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.   As suggested upthread, I used a Medium humanoid zombie as the baseline.

The only problem I see is that with a Cha score of 1, the disease save is terrible.  We could either bump the Cha to 10-11, or we could make it Con-based with the same end result.


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## freyar (May 1, 2008)

I say we bump Cha to 11.

Anything else interesting to do with these?


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## demiurge1138 (May 1, 2008)

Yeah, Cha 11. Maybe higher; they're scary.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (May 1, 2008)

Updated, with Cha 11.  I'm fine with going higher if you all wish to do so.



> The colors of the priesthood are dull browns and dark reds.  He disallows the use of edged weapons in combat, save those with edges that rip or tear flesh.  Most of the clerics at his temple in the Reaching Fens cary large maces with hooked spikes that resemble claws.  These weapons cause more damage (1d6+2) than do standard footman's maces.




Since a human zombie has attack lines of slam or club, wanna go with the slam or hooked mace?

Shall we mention in the flavor text that their creators often dress them in dull brown or dark red clothing?



> The spheres of influence available to followers of Maalpherus are: All, Guardian (minor), Healing, Necromantic, Protection, and Sun (minor).  Priests may use only the reverse form of the Sun sphere and are strongly encouraged to use the reverse of Healing and Necromantic spheres. In fact, Maalpherus feels that only the strongest of his followers should survive, and priests are permitted to use true Healing only on themeselves.  They may not use this power even to heal comrades.  All priests of 5th level or greater receive a bonus spell from their god: cause disease.




Just brainstorming here, but what if we took that a step further and said that Children of Maalpherus receive less healing than usual from inflict spells?  Maybe allow contagion to heal them?



> Because of their strong tie to the powers of their god, the Children of Maalpherus are more powerful than normal zombies and so are turned as spectres.




That would be +2 turn resistance.



> To create such a zombie, a priest of Maalpherus must first cast cause disease on a corpse.  Then, within 24 hours, the priest must cast an animate dead spell (which affects only the one corpse).




Any suggestions on creating them?   

A juju zombie can be created with a create undead spell cast by a 16th-level spellcaster or by certain powerful magical curses or diseases.


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## demiurge1138 (May 2, 2008)

Creation guidelines same as a juju zombie works. 

A hooked mace seems to be a heavy mace.

I like the idea of contagion healing them. How about inflict heals half, like cure spells on a warforged?

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 2, 2008)

Agreed on creation guidelines and healing.  +2 turn resistance is also good.

I might go with a morningstar rather than heavy mace to get the piercing damage.


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## Shade (May 2, 2008)

Trials of Maalpherus (Su):  Maalpherus dictates that only the strongest of his followers should survive, permitting his priests to only use healing on themselves.  This mantra has carried over into the Children of Maalpherus.  As a result, a Child of Maalpherus only gains half the healing benefit of _inflict_ spells.  A contagion spell heals a Child of Maalpherus of x hit points.

A morningstar would probably suffice, or we can create a new weapon...

Hooked Mace:  The favored weapon of Maalpherus and his followers, this heavy mace has a hooked spike that resembles a claw.  It deals bludgeoning and slashing damage.


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## freyar (May 3, 2008)

How about 3d8 hp for contagion?  That would be almost equivalent to a 3rd level inflict.

Want to make the hooked mace exotic and boost the damage to 1d10?


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

freyar said:
			
		

> How about 3d8 hp for contagion?  That would be almost equivalent to a 3rd level inflict.




Sounds good.



			
				freyar said:
			
		

> Want to make the hooked mace exotic and boost the damage to 1d10?




Sure.  That differentiates it further from a morningstar.

Updated.

Organization: Solitary or mob? (2-8)

Challenge Rating: 2?

Advancement: x  (Regular zombies have no advancement)

A Child of Maalpherus can be created with a create undead spell cast by a xth-level spellcaster or by certain powerful magical curses or diseases.  (It's not really any better than a ghoul, so 11th or lower like the ghoul seems right, eh?)


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Mob, CR 2, 11th-level caster all sound good.  You need to put in the 3d8 hp healed by contagion.

For advancement, I'd be happy with some advancement to Large if you want to think about ogres, etc.  So it could be 5-6 HD (Medium), 7-8 HD (Large) if you want.  Otherwise, maybe no advancement.


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## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2008)

I say advancement to Large.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (May 5, 2008)

I suspect it should be CR 3. They're not offensively nasty, but that fast healing 10 will hurt a low level party lots. As such, they should get create undead more like a ghast than a ghoul.

Demiurge out.


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

Looks good.  I'm ok with going to CR 3 and create undead at level 12-14.  Or could we go CR 3 and leave the creation at 11th?  (I mean, you already need to be 11th CL to cast create undead.) It always kind of bothers me that you have, in this case, a CR 3 critter running around but then you all of a sudden hit  a BBEG fight with EL 11+.


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## Shade (May 5, 2008)

Updated  to CR 3 and ghastly prereqs for create undead.

Anything left for these things?


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## freyar (May 5, 2008)

All done, I think!


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## demiurge1138 (May 6, 2008)

I think so too.

Demiurge out.


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Let's tackle an easy one:

*Giant Raccoon:* AL N; AC 6; MV 18; HD 4+4; hp 25; THAC0 15; #AT 1; Dmg 2-8; SZ L (9' long); ML 2; XP 175; MM/244 (raccoon, modified).

From Dungeon Magazine #66 (1998).


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## Shade (May 9, 2008)

Taking the raccoon stats from Dragon #280...

Raccoon: CR 1/3; Tiny Animal; HD 1d8+2; hp 6; Init +3 (Dex); Spd 30 ft.; AC 16 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +1 natural); Atk +2 melee (1d4+1, bite); SQ scent; Face 2 1/2 ft. by 2 1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.; SV Fort +4, Ref +5, Will +1; Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5.
Skills: Hide +6, Listen +5, Move Silently +10, Spot +4, Swim +2.

And advancing them to Large yields...

Abilities: Str 28, Dex 11, Con 20, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5

Now, I don't think they should be stronger or higher-Con than an equally-sized dire ape, and I don't think the Dex should be so low since raccoons are nimble, and the Cha is way too low compared to dire animals, so how about...

Abilities: Str 20, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 11


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## demiurge1138 (May 10, 2008)

Racial bonus to Sleight of Hand checks?


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Stats look good and so does the racial bonus to SoH.  Do we want to add claw attacks?


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

+8 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks?

Reverse-engineering the normal raccoon's stats...

Hide +6, Listen +5, Move Silently +10, Spot +4, Swim +2.
Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 5

It looks like they reversed Hide and Move Silently (Hide would be at least +7 from +4 Tiny, +3 Dex).

Assuming that, and assuming 1 rank in each except Listen would yield:

+2 racial bonus on Hide, Move Silently, and Spot checks, and +4 racial bonus on Listen checks.

It should also get either a climb speed or decent racial bonus on Climb checks.

I'm fine with claw attacks.  Any other opinions on adding claw attacks?


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## freyar (May 12, 2008)

Those racial bonuses sound ok to me.  Give it a climb speed, too, maybe 20ft?


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## demiurge1138 (May 12, 2008)

Claw attacks and a (slowish) climb speed both appeal to me.


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## Shade (May 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Suggested bite and claw damage?

Skills: 7

Feats: 2

Challenge Rating: x

Advancement: x

A giant raccoon is 9 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Probably 1d6 damage for both.

Skills: Move Silently 4, Sleight of Hand 3?

Feats: Alertness, Stealthy, Multiattack?

CR: 3?

Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large), 9-16 HD (Huge)


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

Alertness and Stealthy for the feats.

I can see this as either a CR 2 or a CR 3. Without Multiattack (and since the bite is the predominant killing weapon of a raccoon, I don't think it should get Multiattack), its to-hit is pretty low for the claws, and its overall damage dealing capacity is pretty low.


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Let's go with CR 2.  Probably this shouldn't be that terrible.


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## Shade (May 13, 2008)

Updated.

Weight?


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Comparing to what Wikipedia says about normal raccoons, I'd say 50-90 lb.


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## Shade (May 13, 2008)

Updated.

Anything else?


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## demiurge1138 (May 13, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## freyar (May 13, 2008)

Looks good, but that weight just seems too light in retrospect, esp since these are plenty strong.  Let's go to 300 lb.


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## Shade (May 14, 2008)

I changed it to 300 pounds.


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## freyar (May 14, 2008)

Think it's done now


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Keepin' it simple...

*Giant sheep* (40): INT animal (1); AL N; AC 7; MV 12; HD 4; THAC0 17; #AT 1; Dmg 1d6; SA charge for 2d4 hp damage; SZ L; ML 3; XP 120.

Basically, these are just really big sheep that are part of a mountain giant shepherd's flock.

Originally appeared in Dungeon #69 (1998).


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Hmmm.  Do we have a sheep somewhere to upsize?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Sheep
Death Sheep


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Oh, yeah, the death sheep! 

Advancing a sheep from M to L gives Str 18, Dex 11, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 11, Cha 4.  Bite damage at 1d6 looks right.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Do we want to add trample/stampede or something else to account for this?



> charge for 2d4 hp damage


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

I'd vote for stampede.  If we give them trample, we should give them a slam attack, and I just don't see these as terribly aggressive.  OTOH, they're not smart and probably spook easily.


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Borrowing from the bison...

Stampede (Ex): A frightened flock of giant sheep flees as a group in a random direction (but always away from the perceived source of danger). They literally run over anything of Large size or smaller that gets in their way, dealing 1d12 points of damage for each five sheep in the flock (Reflex DC 16 half ). The save DC is Strength-based.

Does that work as-is?

The standard sheep splits ranks between Listen and Spot.  Ditto here?

Standard sheep has Alertness.  This fella gets two feats.  Suggestions?


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## freyar (May 16, 2008)

Stampede works fine for me.  Ditto on skills.  How about Alertness and maybe Toughness?


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## Shade (May 16, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.


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## demiurge1138 (May 17, 2008)

Alertness and Toughness sound good.


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## freyar (May 17, 2008)

Looks good.  CR 2, Advancement: 5-8 HD (Large), 9-10 HD (Huge)?  Giant sheep stand 6-8 feet tall at the shoulder and weigh 700-900 lb. 

That it?


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

Updated, and I think so.


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## Shade (May 19, 2008)

*Bassnip:* INT animal; AL N; AC 6; MV Sw 18; HD 1-1;THAC0 20; #AT 1; Dmg 1-3; SA small body part amputâtion; SZ S; ML 7; XP 15.

With trout-like pink bodies, bassnip have projecting horizontal toothy jaws that resemble pinking shears.

On a hit, a bassnip has a 15% chance of snipping off an uncovered body part such as a finger or ear.  Otherwise it damages armor by 1 AC if the armor fails to make a save vs. crushing blow.  The bassnip survive on algae and other plants in the lake.  Bassnip are poisonous to any human or demihuman who eats one.  Just one bite causes the eater to make a saving throw vs. poison with failure resulting in death in 2-12 turns.  A successful save results in the eater being ill for 24 hours.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #71 (1998).


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Animal or magical beast?  I think I'd go with animal.  Give the bite augmented critical or something more creative (related to vorpal, possibly)?


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

Didn't we recreate the sharpness mechanic on another conversion not too long ago?   I'm drawing a blank on which one, though.


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## freyar (May 20, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> Didn't we recreate the sharpness mechanic on another conversion not too long ago?   I'm drawing a blank on which one, though.



 I think so, too, but darned if I can figure it out.


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## Shade (May 20, 2008)

I found it.  It was none other than the Fenris Wolf:

Augmented Critical (Ex): The Fenris wolf's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Additionally, the victim must succeed on a DC 76 Fortitude save or lose a hand or foot (Fenris wolf's choice) A victim who loses a foot falls prone and has its land speed reduced to 5 feet. A severed hand make it impossible for the subject to use objects or cast spells with somatic components. The save DC is Strength-based.


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## demiurge1138 (May 20, 2008)

I think snipping off hands and feet is a little much for a glorified trout. Maybe its bite does Cha damage, since it leaves ugly, humiliating scars?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> I think snipping off hands and feet is a little much for a glorified trout. Maybe its bite does Cha damage, since it leaves ugly, humiliating scars?



 Probably a better idea.  But put it as part of augmented crit and give it a threat range of 18-20.  That way we reproduce the 15% change listed in the original.  Should we go with Cha drain, so it takes a little longer to go away, or is that too nasty?


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

Does 1 Cha drain on a crit? I think that's fair.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Sounds good.  So...

Augmented Critical (Ex): A bassnip's bite threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 18–20, dealing triple damage on a successful critical hit. Additionally, the victim must succeed on a DC X Fortitude save or take 1 point of Charisma drain due to the horrific scarring caused by the shearlike jaws. The save DC is Strength(?)-based.


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## demiurge1138 (May 21, 2008)

Looks good to me.


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## Shade (May 21, 2008)

Since all we have to go on is "Size S", do we want to make it a really big fish, or drop it back to Tiny or even Diminutive?


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## freyar (May 21, 2008)

Uhh, let's go to Tiny.  Since these live in a lake, and they're not Nessie, I have a hard time seeing them being Small.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Thought. Make 'em tiny, make the save DC vs. the Cha drain Dex-based, since it's about the finesse of where they snip.


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Excellent thought!  Let's give them Weapon Finesse as a bonus, also, in that case.

We still need abilities.  Looking at the ToH, the barracuda (Small) and quipper (Fine) have similar stats, so I propose aiming at the same area: Str 7, Dex 16, Con 11, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Those stats seem completely reasonable.


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

Skills: 4 (Swim +8)

Feats: I gave it Weapon Finesse as its sole feat, but we can make that a bonus feat if there's another we'd like.

Environment: Temperate or warm aquatic?

Organization: Solitary or school (x)?

Challenge Rating: 1?  (They aren't very strong, but have a decent AC and a chance to deal Cha drain, which is tough to remove at low levels)

Advancement: x

A bassnip is x feet long and weighs x pounds.  



> Bassnip are poisonous to any human or demihuman who eats one. Just one bite causes the eater to make a saving throw vs. poison with failure resulting in death in 2-12 turns. A successful save results in the eater being ill for 24 hours.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Well, we'd have to make Weapon Finesse a bonus feat; the bassnip doesn't qualify for it (everyone always forgets the BAB +1 requirement).


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

D'oh!  I should remember that, as it always pissed me off that one of my rogue's had to wait until 2nd level to be able to hit anything!


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Shade said:
			
		

> D'oh!  I should remember that, as it always pissed me off that one of my rogue's had to wait until 2nd level to be able to hit anything!



 That's what ranged weapons are for!  My Str 6 halfling rogue loved (well, still does) his hand crossbow...

Anyway, yeah, I think these need to be CR 1 due to the Cha drain.

Might as well put all the skill ranks into Swim, though I suppose there's an argument for Hide (hiding in reeds or something).

School (10-20)?

Advancement: 2-4 HD (Tiny), 5-7 HD (Small)

1-1/2 feet long and 7 lb?

Poison: Ingested, 1d4 Con, nauseated for 3 hours?


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## Shade (May 22, 2008)

Updated.

Since WF is a bonus feat, what shall we use for the standard feat?   Alertness?  Stealthy?  Skill Focus (Swim)?

Should they have scent?


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## freyar (May 22, 2008)

Think it needs any more of a swim bonus?  If so, SF (Swim).  Otherwise, let's do Alertness.

I'd say yes on scent.


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## demiurge1138 (May 22, 2008)

Yes on Alertness, yes on scent.


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

Updated.

Look finished?


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## freyar (May 23, 2008)

I think they're done.  You know, these would be interesting to write up as a swarm with the Cha drain as part of the damage (youch!).


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## Shade (May 23, 2008)

That would be frightening!


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## demiurge1138 (May 23, 2008)

I think we're done.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

*Wani (Gargantuan Crocodile)*

Male
Freq: Rare
#App: 1-2
AC: 2
Movment: 10//20
HD: 25
% in lair: Nil
Treasure: Nil
# Att: 3
Dmg/Att: 6-36/4-32/4-32
SA: Exceptional damage
SD: Minor spell immunities
MR: Standard
Int: Animal
Alignment: Neutral
Size: L (46'-55' long)
Psionics: Nil

Female
HD: 20
Dmg/Att: 5-30/3-24/3-24
Size: L (41'-50' long)

Young
#App: 2-12
AC: 4
Movment: 6//12
HD: 5
# Att: 2
Dmg/Att: 3-18/2-16
Size: L (15'-20' long)


Wani are gigantic crocodiles, huge relatives of those described on page 15 of the Monster Manual.  There are legends that this species was created magically, and it is certain that these monsters are immune to spells which affect only normal animals (e.g., speak with animals, possess animal, etc.).

Wani get three attacks: a bite, a claw, and a tail bash, each of which may be directed at a separate opponent (young wani lack the claw attacks of their elders.)  The tail can lash sideways up to half the animal's body length (e.g., 25' for an average male, 22' for a female, 8' for young.)

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #40 (1989).


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2008)

Advancing a giant crocodile to 25 HD and Gargantuan, and switching to magical beast yields...

Gargantuan Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 25d10+150 (287 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft.
Armor Class: 18 (–4 size, +1 Dex, +11 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 17
Base Attack/Grapple: +25/+49
Attack: Bite +33 melee (3d8+18) or tail slap +33 melee (3d6+18)
Full Attack: Bite +33 melee (3d8+18) or tail slap +33 melee (3d6+18)
Space/Reach: 20 ft./15 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +20, Ref +15, Will +9
Abilities: Str 35, Dex 12, Con 23, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: 28
Feats: 9 (2 can be epic)
Environment: Warm marshes
Organization: Solitary or colony (6–11)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -

Look like a good start?

We'll need to add claw attack(s) and possibly darkvision (since it usually comes with the magical beast type).


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

Two claw attacks, darkvision... can we do anything to zazz it up? Improved grab + swallow whole?


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2008)

I'd agree with improved grab & swallow whole.  I'd also suggest extended reach on the tail slap.  Maybe some additional resistance to certain kinds of spells? (Or maybe not.)


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 5, 2008)

Well, its "resistance to spells" is just immunity to spells that affect animals as written. We could definitely improve it, though.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:
			
		

> Well, its "resistance to spells" is just immunity to spells that affect animals as written. We could definitely improve it, though.



 Yeah, I agree; since it's a magical beast, it technically doesn't need anything else.  But there's so little going for it otherwise, I think it might be worthwhile.


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## Shade (Jun 5, 2008)

All that you guys suggested sounds good.

Within the module, they have a "kaiju smash" approach while looking for some stolen eggs.  Perhaps we can give them some building-bashing abilities?

Also, since they are massive creatures found in water, some capsizing abilities might be warranted.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2008)

Tail slap attack ignores hardness up to 10?  I'd agree with capsize, too.

Separate stat block for the young?


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## Shade (Jun 9, 2008)

Both sound good.


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## Shade (Jun 12, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.


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## freyar (Jun 13, 2008)

For swallow whole: 2 Large, 8 Medium, 32 Small, 128 Tiny, or 512 Diminutive or smaller opponents?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Sounds good.

Suggested claw damage?

Skills: 28

Feats: 9 (2 can be epic)

Fill in the Xs:

The swallowed creature takes x points of bludgeoning damage and x points of acid damage per round from the wani's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC x).

A wani is 40 to 55 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

3d6?

If it hunts like a croc, I'd go with splitting the ranks between Hide & Move Silently.  Maybe a little Spot, too, if you want.

Snatch, Multiattack, Power Attack, Imp Bull Rush, Awesome Blow, Cleave, Imp Init, Dire Charge, Imp Multiattack?


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2008)

Sounds good.

Updated.

CR 13-14?  Its about on par with a giganotosaurus, but slightly better than a spinosaurus.

Advancement:  26-50 HD (Gargantuan); 50+ (Colossal)?

A wani is 40 to 55 feet long and weighs x pounds.


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2008)

Your call on CR; either seems ok to me.  Low AC but big damage output.  Advancement is good.  Compared to a very large croc (16 ft and 2600 lb), I'm going to say 20 tons for the weight.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2008)

CR 13, let's say.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Updated.

Fill in the Xs:

The swallowed creature takes x points of bludgeoning damage and x points of acid damage per round from the wani's gizzard. A swallowed creature can cut its way out by using a light slashing or piercing weapon to deal x points of damage to the gizzard (AC x).

Capsize is based on the Huge dragon turtle.  Do we want to increase the ship sizes to match those we gave the Gargantuan sea titan?


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## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

I'd say bite damage 3d8+18 and maybe 8 pts acid per round.  25 points of damage.  The gizzard AC is 10+1/2 natural = 15.

Yeah, let's increase the sizes.


----------



## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Updated.

Ready for the young?



> Young
> #App: 2-12
> AC: 4
> Movment: 6//12
> ...


----------



## freyar (Jun 17, 2008)

Sounds good.  If these are really 5HD, I guess Large?


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2008)

Hmmm...it might be easiest to simply change a crocodile to magical beast and upsize it to 5 HD and Large.  I would assume many of the abilities would be lost (capsize, swallow whole, wrecking tail).

Doing so yields...

Medium Magical Beast
Hit Dice: 5d10+25 (52 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 30 ft.
Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +5/+17
Attack: Bite +6 melee (2d6+8) or tail slap +6 melee (3d6+8)
Full Attack: Bite +6 melee (2d6+8) or tail slap +6 melee (3d6+8)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 12, Con 21, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Skills: Hide +3*, Listen +4, Spot +4, Swim +16, 2 more
Feats: Alertness, Skill Focus (Hide)
Environment: Warm marshes
Organization: Solitary or colony (6–11)
Challenge Rating: x
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: x
Level Adjustment: -


----------



## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

That sounds like about right.  Have you upsized it to Large already (still says medium)?  Given the original text, I might give it extended reach with the tail.  Otherwise, this is probably about it.


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## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

Yeah, it looks like I made the adjustments for Large, but forgot to change the actual size.  

Extended reach sounds good.

CR 3?

Advancement: 6 HD (Large); 7-24 HD (Huge) [Based on giant croc being Huge at 7 HD]


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

That seems fair to me.


----------



## Shade (Jun 19, 2008)

Updated.  Another one done?


----------



## freyar (Jun 19, 2008)

Looks like it!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 20, 2008)

I'd say so.


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## Shade (Jul 3, 2008)

*Ice serpent: *Int animal; AL N(E); AC 4; MV 18 ; HD 9; hp 45 ; THACO 11 ; #AT 2 ; Ding 2-12/3-12 ; SA +3 to surprise, constriction; SZ G (45' long, 1' diameter); ML 16 ; XP 2,000 ; MC (snake, giant constrictor, variant).

The ice serpent attacks twice in a round, once with a bite and once with a lash of its tail.  The tail-lash can send man-size or smaller creatures flying through the air for great distances. Instead of using its normal bite/lash attacks, the ice serpent can opt to constrict its prey for 3-12 hp damage per round. If using its constriction attack, the serpent does not need to roll to hit each round.

Ice serpents are covered in white fur, to match the snowy realms where they live. The coloration of the serpent gives it a greater than normal chance to surprise opponents. The fur of ice serpents is much prized for making warm, waterproof garments that protect the wearer from extremely cold weather.  The fur can be sold for up to 40 gp per square yard.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #27 (1991).


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

It's listed as N(E). I say we make it a Magical Beast. 

The tail lash should have a Str-based knockback ability, similar, but not identical, to Awesome Blow.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

Agreed on magical beast.

What would you make different than Awesome Blow in the tail lash?  I might take out the -4 attack penalty, but I'm not seeing much difference.

Physical stats from the giant constrictor: Str 25, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2.  Improved grab, constrict 1d8+1-1/2 Str like constrictor or not?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 4, 2008)

I'd like to see the -4 penalty gone, but other than that, not much should be different. Unless we decided to, like the bull's rush, make knockback move the victim based on how much they failed the save by.

Physical ability scores look alright, but we should boost them by a size category, since these are Gargantuan. Ditto sizing up the constriction.

They're going to need a rather large bonus to Hide checks from camouflage if they're to remain hidden.


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## freyar (Jul 4, 2008)

We'll keep the options open on the tail, I guess.

True enough on the size.  Str 33, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2? Constrict 2d6+1-1/2 Str?

How about max ranks in Hide plus a +4 racial Hide bonus, increasing to +12 in snowy environments?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 5, 2008)

I'd say boost the Charisma a bit and the Intelligence to 3, to allow them an Evil alignment.


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## freyar (Jul 5, 2008)

Yeah, I'd agree with that.  Maybe Str 33, Dex 17, Con 17, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Added to Homebrews.

I think we need to boost the HD.  A giant constrictor has 11 HD, and becomes Gargantuan at 17 HD.  So I'd recommend boosting to 17 HD.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Updated.

A giant constrictor increased to Gargantuan would have +8 natural armor.  Does that sound good here?

Do we want to give it a climb and/or swim speed like most snakes?

How much of this do we want to retain?

Skills: Snakes have a +4 racial bonus on Hide, Listen, and Spot checks and a +8 racial bonus on Balance and Climb checks. A snake can always choose to take 10 on a Climb check, even if rushed or threatened. Snakes use either their Strength modifier or Dexterity modifier for Climb checks, whichever is higher. A snake has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


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## GrayLinnorm (Jul 7, 2008)

I support a climb speed; I don't know how useful a swim speed would be, given their prefered enviroment.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

The glacier snake in Serpent Kingdoms has a climb speed, but no swim speed, so I think your recommendation is appropriate.

Is this close to what you guys were suggesting upthread?

"Tail Toss" (Ex):  As a standard action, an ice serpent may make a single powerful blow with its tail.  If it hits a corporeal opponent smaller than itself with its tail lash, its opponent must succeed on a Reflex save (DC = damage dealt) or be knocked flying in a direction of the serpent's choice and fall prone. The opponent is moved 10 feet plus an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which it fails the save.  The serpent can only push the opponent in a straight line, and the opponent can’t move closer to the serpent than the square it started in. If an obstacle prevents the completion of the opponent’s move, the opponent and the obstacle each take 1d6 points of damage, and the opponent stops in the space adjacent to the obstacle.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

I think it should have a Swim speed. Polar bears do, after all. 

Perhaps we should boost natural armor to +10.


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## Shade (Jul 7, 2008)

Climb and swim both 20 ft.?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 7, 2008)

Sure!


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Updated.

I put all ranks in Hide as freyar suggested, yielding...
Skills: Balance +11, Climb +19, Hide +15*, Listen +5, Spot +5, Swim +19

Feats: 6
Giant constrictors have Alertness, Endurance, Skill Focus (Hide), Toughness.  I'm fine with all of those except the pointless Toughness.
Multiattack seems wise, due to their reliance on the tail lash.

Environment: Any cold land?

Organization: Solitary?

Alignment: Always neutral, often evil?

Advancement: 18-33 HD (Gargantuan); 34-41 HD (Colossal)?

An ice serpent is 45 feet long and 1 foot in diameter. It weighs x pounds. (A purple worm is 5 feet in diameter and 80 feet long, weighing about 40,000 pounds, so maybe half that?)


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

I agree with you on the weight issue. Skills look good, environment looks good...

They only have two natural attacks, so would have to have Multiattack as a bonus feat.

Ditch Toughness, give it Stealthy, Power Attack, Cleave?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> They only have two natural attacks, so would have to have Multiattack as a bonus feat.




D'oh!  That gets me every time.  

Updated.

CR 10?

Any suggestions for a better name for "tail toss"?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

A strong CR 9 or a weak CR 10.

How about "fling" instead of "tail toss"?


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## Shade (Jul 8, 2008)

Let's go with strong CR 9 and "fling".

Updated.

All done?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 8, 2008)

All done!


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## Shade (Jul 28, 2008)

*Botswanna Golgalarka*

This wagon has a glassteel window and strong iron bars.  It is home to an unusual animal that looks much like a fat, brown, 5'-long lizard with six tiny legs and a long neck and tail.  A huge sign proclaims:

"Botswanna Golgalarka
Rare Tropical Carnivorous Beast
Kills Prey by Screaming
Only One in Captivity"

The botswanna golgalarka (AC 0; MV 15"; HD 8; hp 60; #AT 1 bite; Dmg 1-8; SA ultrasonic breath weapon; AL NG) can, three times per day, create a powerful cone of ultrasonic waves that reaches a maximum distance of 70 feet with a 10'-width at that distance.  Most victims are not aware of the attack, since the sound is beyond the range of the human ear.  However, demi-humans and keen-hearing humanoids have a 50% chance to notice the lower harmonics of the beam if no other sounds are present.  The sound stuns a victim for 10 rounds and causes cellular damage equal to the hit points of the golgalarka.  A successful save vs. breath weapon results in being stunned for one round and taking only half damage.

These animals feed on small mammals and are found only in dense tropical environments.  They are 3' tall and 5' long.  The golgalarka is an extremely rare species; it is rumored that they originally came from an outer plane.  They seem to have an ability to sense alignments, and treat those of good alignment with respect.  This specimen was captured by Mordo; it greatly desires to be free and tries to communicate with anyone it believes might be able to free it.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #7 (1987).


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## freyar (Jul 28, 2008)

Medium magical beast, I guess.  I can see arguments for or against extraplanar, depending on how we interpret the flavor text.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

Let's make them extraplanar. Native to the Beastlands, perhaps, for the Good leanings?


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## freyar (Jul 29, 2008)

Sounds good (har har) to me.  Compare to Medium constrictor snakes for physical stats (those are Str 17, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2)?


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## Shade (Jul 29, 2008)

So Medium Magical Beast (Extraplanar)?

Some other ability scores for inspiration...

Monitor Lizard (M): Str 17, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2
Basilisk (M): Str 15, Dex 8, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 11
Jhakar (M): Str 14, Dex 15, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Komodo Dragon (M): Str 19, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 1, Wis 12, Cha 2


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 29, 2008)

I think the monitor lizard has appropriate physical ability scores.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Added to Homebrews using the monitor lizard ability scores.

What shall we do with ability scores?   No Int is given, but the fact that they are of good alignment and "attempt to communicate" would indicate to me at least a modicum of intelligence.


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 30, 2008)

Let's go Int 4-7, somewhere in that range. Not smart, but sapient.


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## Shade (Jul 30, 2008)

Int 5?   Increase Cha to 12?

Stick to 3/day for the breath weapon or change to the standard once every 1d4 rounds?


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## freyar (Jul 30, 2008)

Int 5, Cha 12 makes sense.

I say keep 3/day on the breath weapon.  There are a number of precedents (though we might put in a "no more often than every other round" or something).  8d10 sonic damage plus stunning seems a little harsh, so how about 3d6 sonic and stunned for 1d6 rounds if you fail the Ref save?


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## demiurge1138 (Jul 31, 2008)

Freyar's suggestion for toning it down seem good, but I'd boost the damage a bit above 3d6. It's this creature's primary gimmick.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Hmm, I was trying to keep this near the breath weapon of a true dragon with 8HD.  Want to go 4d6 or something like 3d8 or 3d10?


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## Shade (Jul 31, 2008)

Let's go 4d10.  That's half the original amount, and they lack the other offensive capabilities of true dragons, so it's OK to be a bit higher.

Plus, they're good-aligned, so probably won't be picking on too many party members unfairly.


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## freyar (Jul 31, 2008)

Ok, then, maybe

Breath weapon (Su): 3/day (no more than once every two rounds), 4d10 sonic and stunned for 1d6 rounds; Ref save DC X half damage and stunned 1 round.



> They seem to have an ability to sense alignments, and treat those of good alignment with respect.




A detect alignment "unique" SLA?  I know we've written one somewhere recently just combining detect chaos/evil/good/law.


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

I don't think we need the "no more than once every two rounds" limiter.  The party won't hold back, so why should the monster?  

I'll bet this is what you remembered...

Detect Alignment (Su): A grythok automatically detects the alignment of any creature that comes within 60 feet. This ability can be fooled by any spell, spell-like ability, or supernatural ability that masks a creature's alignment (or the Use Magic Device skill, although that requires a successful emulate alignment check prior to entering range of this ability and maintaining concentration the whole time within range).


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 1, 2008)

That works for me.


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## freyar (Aug 1, 2008)

Yeah, I think that's what I remember.  I noticed that some critters in the SRD seem to have all the detect alignment spells as SLAs.  We could go that route, too, depending if we want it to be continuous or not.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Aug 1, 2008)

In this case, I think the Su ability is a bit more appropriate since they don't seem particularly "magical".

Getting back to the breath weapon, how about this?

Breath weapon (Su): 70-foot cone, once every 1d4 rounds (but no more than three times per day), 4d10 sonic and stunned for 1d6 rounds; Ref save DC X half damage and stunned 1 round.  The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Aug 2, 2008)

Looks good to me!


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Updated.

Skills: 11

Feats: 3

A botswanna golgalarka is 5 feet long and weighs x pounds.   (Wikipedia lists komodo dragons as 150 pounds at 6 feet length).

A botswanna golgalarka speaks/understands x?


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Umm, maybe 100-120lb?

Celestial and Common?

Hide 6, Move Silently 5

Alertness, Ability Focus (breath weapon), Dodge or Iron Will


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2008)

Komodo dragon weight sounds appropriate. 

How about Improved Initiative, Track, Weapon Focus (bite)? 
4 ranks in Listen and Spot, 3 in Survival?

Speaks no languages, but understands Common, Celestial and Infernal?

Edit: To justify my skills selection, I think that the B-G has no need for stealth whatsoever. It can hunt small mammals by killing everything in a 70 foot cone and picking up the carcasses. I could see an argument for them using stealth to evade larger predators capable of resisting the breath weapon, however.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

I blended your two suggestions. Updated.

Wanna give them scent for better tracking prey?

Organization: Solitary?

Challenge Rating: 5-6?

Advancement: 9-18 HD (Medium); 19-27 HD (Large)?

Should we give them resistance to sonic to go along with their breath weapon theme?


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## freyar (Aug 4, 2008)

Scent would be reasonable.  I think we're ok with CR 6, advancement looks fine.  Maybe resistance 5 sonic to solidify the CR a little.  Solitary is fine.


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## Shade (Aug 4, 2008)

Updated.

Work complete?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 4, 2008)

Looks done to me. I like this guy!

Edit: Maybe not... I realized something. This is a CR 6. There are... three? core classes with a favored reflex save. Everyone else is not so lucky. They get a +2 from their class, plus another 2 from Dex and 2 from a cloak... if they're lucky. And they will still fail their saves versus the breath weapon most of the time.

What I'm saying is... I think we shouldn't give them Ability Focus as a default feat. Seems a little mean.


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## Shade (Aug 5, 2008)

Fair enough.  Swapped for Iron Will.

Updated.

Good?


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## demiurge1138 (Aug 6, 2008)

I'm satisfied.


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## Shade (Oct 1, 2008)

*Ether Shadow*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any ruins or subterranean chambers
FREQUENCY: Vert rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night or darkness
DIET: Living beings
INTELLIGENCE: Highly
TREASURE: F
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 5
MOVEMENT: Fly 12 (A)
HIT DICE: 8+8
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-7 + special
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Strength drain
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +1 or better weapon to hit, spell immunities
MAGIC RESISTANCE: Nil
SIZE: M (6' tall)
MORALE: Special
XP VALUE: 3,000

Ether shadows, also known as greater shadows, are the progenitors of the more common shadows of monster fame.  Like shadows, their chilling touch drains strength at the increased rate of two points per hit.  Lost strength returns after 3-18 turns.  A human or demihuman drained to zero strength or hit points by an ether shadow becomes a shadow of the type described in the Monstrous Compendium.

Ether shadows may travel freely through the Ethereal plane to manifest themselves as apparitions on any bordering plane.  They have no power to materialize on those planes, so can neither physically affect nor be affected by anything on them.  The one thing they can do is insinuate themselves into and control the dreams of any sleeper they discover—a power that lends credence to the notion that dreams are an other-planar experience.  While an ether shadow may cause no actual harm to a dreamer, it can use this power to communicate freely, or more likely to plague the dreamer with nightmares of the worst caliber.

In order to combat an ether shadow, it’s necessary to follow it to the Ethereal Plane or to the plane on which it was originally created.  On either plane, it is always partially materialized and may be affected by material weapons and by all but a few spells.  (Ether shadows are immune to sleep, charm, and hold spells, and all cold-based attacks.)

An ether shadow can change its body at will into any shape it desires, though that shape will always be made of the same shadow-stuff.  It can also vary the exact shade of its substance and so may appear as the three-dimensional creature it is rather than a patch of darkness like ordinary shadows.  Regardless, the ether shadow is always black or some shade of gray.  If it chooses to remain its normal, featureless black, it is 90% undetectable in any light less bright than a continual light spell.

Ether shadows are created in a dark ritual that divides a creature’s essence into three parts, causing it to exist simultaneously on the Ethereal Plane, the Negative Material Plane, and the Prime Material Plane on which the ritual was performed.

It was Erebus’s misfortune to duplicate the ritual with his miscast planar travel spell, scattering his essence to those very planes.  Because of the special nature of the Mistmoor family vault, Erebus is no longer on the same aspect of the Prime Material plane that holds Mistmoor Manor.  The PCs will never encounter him as more than an intangible apparition until the final confrontation.

Erebus’s two favorite forms are those of a raven and the man he was in life (a shadow of his former self, as it were.)  He rarely uses his shapeshifting abilities to assume any other form.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #35 (1992).


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## freyar (Oct 1, 2008)

Undead (extraplanar, incorporeal).

I have the sense that these should probably be tougher than greater shadows, but that's just a feeling.  Your thoughts?

The greater shadow has 9HD, so do we want to bump this to 9HD?  Whatever HD we go with, it appears to have unholy toughness or something (extra hp listed).

Some sort of permanent manifestation like a ghost?

Incorporeal touch will do Str damage and maybe extra damage.  Maybe 1d6+Cha negative energy?

Greater shadows have Str —, Dex 15, Con —, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 14.  So how about Str -, Dex 17, Con -, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 16?

Unless you feel like going template, that is...


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

I'm not really feeling "template" for this one.

I agree with your assessment of 9 HD and the ability scores you suggested look pretty good.   Added to Homebrews.

I'm a bit torn on how to handle the damage.  I've left the greater shadow's Strength damage as a placeholder for now.

Are you suggesting 1d6+Cha negative energy damage *plus* 1d8 Strength damage?  If so, I think that might work.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 2, 2008)

Real damage plus Str damage looks right to me. 

Do we want to give them nightmare as per the spell? Or can they only communicate, so just dream?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

Yeah, I'm suggesting hp (either untyped or negative energy) plus Str damage from the touch.

Since it explicitly says it can't cause damage, that would indicate dream (maybe 1/day, or do you think more?), but nightmare would be a lot more fun.  Could do both, but limit the number of times it can use nightmare to 1/week or something.


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## szarkel (Oct 2, 2008)

*Szarkel*

How abou the dreaded Szarkel


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

szarkel said:


> How abou the dreaded Szarkel




The gith dog?


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## Shade (Oct 2, 2008)

freyar said:


> Yeah, I'm suggesting hp (either untyped or negative energy) plus Str damage from the touch.




Let's go with negative energy.



freyar said:


> Since it explicitly says it can't cause damage, that would indicate dream (maybe 1/day, or do you think more?), but nightmare would be a lot more fun.  Could do both, but limit the number of times it can use nightmare to 1/week or something.




I think dream 1/day and nighmare 1/week sounds reasonable.  Caster level equals HD?


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## freyar (Oct 2, 2008)

CL=HD seems reasonable.

Any thoughts about how these appear constantly in both ethereal and "plane on which created"?  I could see a permanent version of manifestation along the lines of a ghost.


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## Shade (Oct 3, 2008)

Let's see...what needs changing in this ability to apply here?

Manifestation (Su): Every ghost has this ability. A ghost dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When a ghost manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ghost can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ghost can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ghost always moves silently. A manifested ghost can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon (see Ghostly Equipment, below). A manifested ghost remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ghost can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ghost’s incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

When a spellcasting ghost is not manifested and is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting ghost manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ghost’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.

A ghost has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.


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## Shade (Oct 6, 2008)

Like so?

Manifestation (Su): An ether shadow dwells on the Ethereal Plane and, as an ethereal creature, it cannot affect or be affected by anything in the material world. When an ether shadow manifests, it partly enters the Material Plane and becomes visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ether shadow can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ether shadow can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ether shadow always moves silently. A manifested ether shadow can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon. A manifested ether shadow remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ether shadow can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ether shadow's incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

When a spellcasting ether shadow is not manifested and is on the Ethereal Plane, its spells cannot affect targets on the Material Plane, but they work normally against ethereal targets. When a spellcasting ether shadow manifests, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ether shadow’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.

An ether shadow has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.


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## freyar (Oct 7, 2008)

Sorry, been busy at work.  Here's how I would change it: make manifestation permanent and allow other home planes besides material.  So like this:

Permanent Manifestation (Su): An ether shadow dwells on the Ethereal Plane, but it is permanently manifested on the plane where it was created (usually the Material Plane; substitute in the following as needed).  An ether shadow is therefore partly in the Material Plane and visible but incorporeal on the Material Plane. A manifested ether shadow can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons, or spells, with a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source. A manifested ether shadow can pass through solid objects at will, and its own attacks pass through armor. A manifested ether shadow always moves silently. A manifested ether shadow can strike with its touch attack or with a ghost touch weapon. A manifested ether shadow remains partially on the Ethereal Plane, where is it not incorporeal. A manifested ether shadow can be attacked by opponents on either the Material Plane or the Ethereal Plane. The ether shadow's incorporeality helps protect it from foes on the Material Plane, but not from foes on the Ethereal Plane.

Because an ether shadow is always manifested, its spells continue to affect ethereal targets and can affect targets on the Material Plane normally unless the spells rely on touch. A manifested ether shadow’s touch spells don’t work on nonethereal targets.

An ether shadow has two home planes, the Material Plane and the Ethereal Plane. It is not considered extraplanar when on either of these planes.


On the other hand, since these are not templates, maybe we don't need the spellcasting part (unless we want to refer to SLAs or allow advancement by class).


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## Shade (Oct 7, 2008)

Looks good!



freyar said:


> On the other hand, since these are not templates, maybe we don't need the spellcasting part (unless we want to refer to SLAs or allow advancement by class).




Let's leave it, in case someone advances them by character class (regardless of what we put on the Advancement line).

Updated.


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Let's add to "create spawn" that a creature reduced to Str 0 "dies and becomes a shadow..."

Also, let's insert a paragraph into permanent manifestation just before the last one:

A manifested ether shadow may take any shape it desires, but it always remains black or gray and appears somewhat insubstantial.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Updated.

Drop the Extraplanar subtype, based on permanent manifestation?

Skills: 60 ranks 
Shadows and greater shadows have Hide, Listen, Search, Spot

Feats: 4
Greater shadows have Alertness, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

Environment: Any land or Ethereal Plane?

Organization: Solitary or x (ether shadow plus x shadows)?

Challenge Rating: 9?  They are slightly better than greater shadows.

Advancement: 10-27 HD (Medium)?

Shadows and greater shadows cannot speak intelligibly.  How about these guys?


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## freyar (Oct 8, 2008)

Yeah, since ghosts aren't extraplanar, I guess these shouldn't be either.

Max those skills and also maybe Knowledge (the planes).

Feats: Alertness, Flyby Attack, Ability Focus (nightmare), Stealthy?

Environment is good.  So are CR and advancement.

Solitary or Umbra (ether shadow plus 1d6 shadows).

I think no speech.


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## Shade (Oct 8, 2008)

Updated.

How about this for creating them...

A spellcaster of 16th or higher level can create an ether shadow by casting create greater undead as part of a dark ritual involving anointing the corpse with the blood of an ethereal creature.


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## freyar (Oct 9, 2008)

Sounds good!  Is it done then?


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## Shade (Oct 9, 2008)

I think so!


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## Shade (Oct 10, 2008)

Next!

At the head of the army march two constructs of the ghouls’ necromantic magic: battering rams made entirely of sculpted living flesh, each with 40 legs.  Three ghoul officers ride on one; the army’s general rides on the other.

*Necromantic battering rams *(2): INT semi-; AL N; AC 2; MV 9; HD 16; hp 74, 70; THACO 5; #AT 1; Dmg 2d20; SA crush, trample; SD immune to mind-affecting spells; turned as “special”; SZ G (30’ long, 9’ tall); ML 18; XP 10,000.

If a battering ram strikes a foe with a natural 20, it destroys all items carried by the target unless they save vs. crushing blow at -5.  When the ram strikes a foe, he must make an ability check equal to half his Strength (percentile Strength counts as 19 for this calculation).  If the check fails, the victim suffers an additional 2d10 hp damage as the ram tramples him.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #70 (1998).


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 10, 2008)

Crushing critical should only damage one item, according to the table in the PHB (so shield, then cloak, then armor, etc).

Turned as special = +4 turn resistance?


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## Shade (Oct 13, 2008)

All sounds good so far.  I think standard trample should suffice as well.

Let's figure out some ability scores.

Int Semi- equates to 2-4.  Average Wis and Cha?

Hullathoin advanced to Gargantuan:  Str 38, Dex 8, Con —
Ulgurstasta (G): Str 28, Dex 15, Con —
Nightcrawler (G): Str 48, Dex 10, Con —
Corpse Gatherer (G): Str 34, Dex 7, Con —
Necronaut (G): Str 41, Dex 8, Con —

For Str, I'm thinking lean toward the high end, somewhere in the 40-50 range.

Dex in the 7-10 range?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

Str 45, Dex 7, Con - , Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 13?


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Added to Homebrews using those abillity scores.

Currently, I've given them unholy toughness, as I think these things should be able to withstand alot of punishment.  If you'd rather remove it, I'm fine with that.   I could even see adding DR akin to zombies.

Does crushing critical look OK?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 14, 2008)

Crushing critical looks good. 

I like unholy toughness, but they should get 16 bonus hit points, not 12. I agree that a bit of DR would be good for them as well.


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## Shade (Oct 14, 2008)

Oops!  Fixed the bonus hp.

DR x/slashing (like zombies) or x/-?

Skills: 19
Climb and Spot?

Feats: 6
Awesome Blow, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Critical (slam), Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, Power Attack?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 15, 2008)

5/- seems right.

If they have trample, I don't think they need Improved Overrun. Let's go for Cleave instead.


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Updated.

Trample 2d20+25?

Skills: 19
Climb +8, Spot +11?

Organization: Solitary or pair?

Challenge Rating: 10?  (It's not quite as deadly as a CR 11 juggernaut, which seems to fill a similar niche.  It seems on par with the CR 10 plague spewer)

Treasure: None?

Advancement: 17-32 HD (Gargantuan); 33-48 HD (Colossal)?

A necromantic battering ram is 30 feet long and 9 feet tall, weighing x pounds.


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## freyar (Oct 15, 2008)

Wow, everything looks good here!  Maybe 25,000 lb or 12-15 tons?


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## Shade (Oct 15, 2008)

Updated.

Another one done?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 16, 2008)

I think I'd lower the damage on the trample. Because, why would it ever bother using its slam? The trample does as much damage, to more targets!

Other than that, I approve.


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

demiurge1138 said:


> I think I'd lower the damage on the trample. Because, why would it ever bother using its slam? The trample does as much damage, to more targets!
> 
> Other than that, I approve.



I agree philosophically, but trample damage is generally tied to slam damage per the SRD.  The disadvantage to trample is that it allows a Ref save for half, and you can avoid it by spreading out.  

All said, though, I'm ok with reducing trample damage if Shade approves.


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

Plus it gains Improved Critical and crushing critical with slam.  

I'm fine with reducing trample, though.  Suggested reduced damage?


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## freyar (Oct 16, 2008)

Maybe 3/4 slam plus Str instead of slam plus 1.5 Str?


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## Shade (Oct 16, 2008)

So 3d10+17?


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 17, 2008)

Well, Str time 1.5 is industry standard. But I like 3d10 rather than 2d20.


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

3d10+25 is fine by me.  We should probably mention we gave it nonstandard trample somewhere, though.


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## Shade (Oct 17, 2008)

freyar said:


> 3d10+25 is fine by me.  We should probably mention we gave it nonstandard trample somewhere, though.




Updated, including a disclaimer.  

All done?


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## freyar (Oct 17, 2008)

Just say that its trample is "less than its mighty slam attack" rather than "less that," and I'm happy with it.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

*Greater Treant*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Secluded forests
FREQUENCY: Rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Photosynthesis
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: Q (5), S, T
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic good
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: -2
MOVEMENT: 9
HIT DICE: 16
THAC0: 5
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 6-36
SPECIAL ATTACKS: See below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Never surprised
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 30%
SIZE: G (26’-36’ tall)
MORALE: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 16,000

Greater treants are solitary beings found deep within forests far away from civilization.  Identical to treants in most respects, greater treants are larger and more powerful than their lesser cousins.  As sworn protectors of the forests, greater treants can be called upon in times of great need to aid a region’s inhabitants.  In addition to the language of treants, greater treants can speak most humanoid languages and have the innate ability to communicate with all plants and animals.  Some also speak in the secret tongue of druids.

Combat:  Greater treants are most often found (99%) in deep slumbers that may last for more than a century.  Anyone with evil intent entering a greater treant’s grove (which is usually protected) awakens it in 1-2 rounds.  Also, anyone who speaks a greater treant’s name while inside its grove will wake it in 1d4 rounds.  Aside from their magical abilities, greater treants can attack twice per round using their giant, armlike branches for 6d6 hp damage.  Their hardened, barklike skin provides them with a low armor class.

Greater treants have the ability to animate and control normal trees.  A greater treant can animate up to 10 normal trees at a time.  It takes one round for a tree to be animated.  The trees found within a greater treant’s forest are unusually large and have superior combat abilities:  14 Hit Dice, two attacks, 5d6 hp damage per attack, and MV 1.

In addition to their magic resistance, greater treants are immune to all charm-related spells.  Greater treants have many magical abilities which they employ as a 16th-level priest.  Once per round, a greater treant may use the following spell-like abilities: detect magic, entangle, know alignment, messenger, neutralize poison, and animal growth.  In addition, they may also use the following abilities once per day: animal summoning III, call woodland beings, charm person or mammal, dispel magic, reflecting pool, and remove curse.

Greater treants suffer a weakness against fire attacks like normal treants, and magical fires cannot be resisted.

Habitat/Society:  Greater treants live alone in secluded groves.  They are intolerant of evil and any threat to the forests in which they live.  If called upon in times of danger, a greater treant does everything in its power to ensure the well-being of its forest.  Greater treants have no use for treasure and keep such items buried deep beneath their roots, only to be used for the cause of good.

Ecology:  Greater treants, like their smaller cousins, obtain sustenance via photosynthesis.  The lifespan of greater treants is unknown.  It is believed that they are exceptionally ancient beings divinely chosen to stand watch over nature until the end of time.  They are assumed to have been around since long before the birth of humankind (some say even before the time of the elves), and no one has ever heard of a greater treant dying of old age.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #61 (1996).


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Well, the Epic Level Handbook has the elder treant. What makes these so different?


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

These fit nicely in a treant "hierarchy".

Treant = 7 HD, Huge
Elder Treant (WotC site version) = 32 HD, Colossal
Epic Elder Treant = 50 HD, Colossal

These appear to be Gargantuan, 16 HD.

They've also got the additional SLAs.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

True. Let's give it a whirl, then.


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## Shade (Mar 3, 2009)

Let's work on ability scores.

Other treants scores...

Treant: Str 29, Dex 8, Con 21, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12
Elder Treant (non-epic): Str 42, Dex 10, Con 39, Int 17, Wis 23, Cha 18
Elder Treant (epic): Str 48, Dex 8, Con 42, Int 19, Wis 33, Cha 35

Upsizing Treant to Gargantuan:  Str 37, Dex 8, Con 25, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 12

Downsizing nonepic elder treant to Gargantuan:  Str 34, Dex 10, Con 35, Int 17, Wis 23, Cha 18

Int is listed as 15-16, which puts it between the two.

So how about Str 34, Dex 8, Con 31, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 3, 2009)

Stats sound pretty good!


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> Greater treants have the ability to animate and control normal trees. A greater treant can animate up to 10 normal trees at a time. It takes one round for a tree to be animated. The trees found within a greater treant’s forest are unusually large and have superior combat abilities: 14 Hit Dice, two attacks, 5d6 hp damage per attack, and MV 1.




A normal treant's ability essentially creates more treants.  Should we come up with a stat block for these stronger trees?



> In addition to their magic resistance, greater treants are immune to all charm-related spells.




Immunity to charms?



> Greater treants have many magical abilities which they employ as a 16th-level priest. Once per round, a greater treant may use the following spell-like abilities: detect magic, entangle, know alignment, messenger, neutralize poison, and animal growth. In addition, they may also use the following abilities once per day: animal summoning III, call woodland beings, charm person or mammal, dispel magic, reflecting pool, and remove curse.




Spell-Like Abilities: At will—animal growth (DC 18), animal messenger, detect chaos/evil/good/law, detect magic, entangle (DC 14), neutralize poison (DC 17); 1/day—charm monster (DC 17), greater dispel magic, remove curse, summon nature's ally III. Caster level 16th. The save DCs are Charisma-based.

Any idea what to do with reflecting pool?


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## GrayLinnorm (Mar 5, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> 
> Any idea what to do with reflecting pool?




Scrying.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Ahh that makes sense.  I'll add it to the list.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Summon nature's ally III is pretty bad for a creature of this level. Remember, back in the day III was actually pretty good (they didn't correspond to the spell level). Let's replace it with SNA VI or VII.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

That works for me.

Thoughts on the animated trees?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

The tree animation could create more greater treants without SLAs or intelligence, similarly to that of an ordinary treant but bigger and stronger.


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

Simple and elegant.  

Like so?

Animate Trees (Sp): A greater treant can animate trees within 180 feet at will, controlling up to ten trees at a time. It takes 1 full round for a normal tree to uproot itself. Thereafter it moves at a speed of 10 feet and fights as a greater treant in all respects except it lacks spell-like abilities. Animated trees lose their ability to move if the greater treant that animated them is incapacitated or moves out of range. The ability is otherwise similar to liveoak (caster level 16th). Animated trees have the same vulnerability to fire that a greater treant has.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

Like so, yes. 

Suggested Skills: Ranks in Intimidate, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Know (nature), Survival and Concentration. All of those are skills for regular treants, with the addition of Concentration. And it should have 76 skill points, not 57, due to its Int mod of +2.

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Iron Will, Quicken SLA (charm monster), Improved Initiative, Snatch


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## freyar (Mar 5, 2009)

Wow, are these almost done already?

11 ranks in each of those skills except 10 for Survival?

Immunity to charms is not so good (only about 5 core spells), but I could see immune to charms and compulsions.  What do you think?


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## Shade (Mar 5, 2009)

freyar said:


> Wow, are these almost done already?




It's just a tree.  



freyar said:


> Immunity to charms is not so good (only about 5 core spells), but I could see immune to charms and compulsions.  What do you think?




Works for me.

Updated.



> Greater treants are most often found (99%) in deep slumbers that may last for more than a century.  Anyone with evil intent entering a greater treant’s grove (which is usually protected) awakens it in 1-2 rounds.  Also, anyone who speaks a greater treant’s name while inside its grove will wake it in 1d4 rounds.




Do anything with this other than flavor text?


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 5, 2009)

I think we should stick to that being flavor.


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Mostly flavor, but perhaps the bit about evil intent means we should mention that they sleep with detect evil "turned on."


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## Shade (Mar 6, 2009)

freyar said:


> Mostly flavor, but perhaps the bit about evil intent means we should mention that they sleep with detect evil "turned on."




Interesting idea...maybe utilize the alarm spell once again?


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## freyar (Mar 6, 2009)

Hmm, alarm tied to detect evil, sure!  For your consideration:

Evil Alert (Su): A sleeping greater treant is awakened by the intrusion of evil into its protected grove.  Any creature that detects as evil (as the detect evil spell) and enters the greater treant's grove causes the greater treant to awake.  This functions as the mental alarm function of the alarm spell, but the effect lasts as long as the greater treant sleeps.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

Fantastic!

Updated.

DR 15/slashing?  (Treant is 10/slashing, epic elder treant is 10/-, and nonepic elder treant is 30/+3)



> In addition to the language of treants, greater treants can speak most humanoid languages and have the innate ability to communicate with all plants and animals. Some also speak in the secret tongue of druids.




Greater treants speak Common, Druidic, Sylvan, and Treant, and most humanoid languages.

Speak with Plants and Animals (Ex?):  A greater treant may communicate with plants and animals as if affected by the speak with animals and speak with plants spells.


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 9, 2009)

Good speak with animals and plants. Agreed to the DR--we could make it magic and slashing.


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## Shade (Mar 9, 2009)

I like it.

A greater treant is about 36 feet tall, with a “trunk” about x feet in diameter. It weighs about x pounds.  (A treant is about 30 feet tall, with a “trunk” about 2 feet in diameter. It weighs about 4,500 pounds.  Both forms of elder treants don't list height and weight)

Challenge Rating: 12?

Treasure: Standard?

Alignment: Usually chaotic good?

Advancement: 17–32 HD (Gargantuan); 33-48 HD (Colossal)?  (This follows the standard treant and nonepic elder treant progression, and doesn't overlap the epic elder treant's HD)


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## demiurge1138 (Mar 10, 2009)

Trunk 4 feet in diameter?

The rest looks good--treasure, CR, advancement.


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

All looking good.  With a 4 ft diameter trunk, 20000 lb?


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## Shade (Mar 10, 2009)

Updated.

All done?


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## freyar (Mar 10, 2009)

Looks like it!


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

Hey, look, another unconverted demon!  

_Suddenly the water in this underground grotto starts bubbling.  Bursting out of the water is a hideous monster.  It is an enormous octopus-like seaweed-green colored creature with four tentacled appendages and a maw filled with black, glistening teeth._

This is a tribute gatherer, a special tanar’ri from Umberlee’s layer of the Abyss.  It has arrived in response to Umberlina’s earlier call.

*Tribute Gatherer*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: The Abyss (Umberlee’s Lair); Ocean (Prime Material Plane)
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Any
DIET: Carnivore
INTELLIGENCE: Exceptional (15-16)
TREASURE: F
ALIGNMENT: Chaotic evil
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 0
MOVEMENT: 9, swim 36
HIT DICE: 10
THAC0: 11
NO. OF ATTACKS: 4+special
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-6 (+6) x4
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Ink spray, bite, telekinesis
SPECIAL DEFENSES: +2 or better weapon to hit
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 20%
SIZE: L (10’ tall)
Morale: Fanatic (17-18)
XP VALUE: 8,000

Tribute gatherers resemble large gray octopi at first glance.  They have two 6’ long arms ending in hands with sharp claws as well as two 12’ tentacles, much like those of an octobus.  Its bulbous body has large flaps on the underside that extend outward and are used for propulsion (like a manta ray).  They are also strong enough for the monster to prop itself up on dry land.  In the middle of its underside is a secret pouch where the tribute gatherer stores treasure that it collects from the various temples of Umberlee and distributes it to those involved in plots meeting her favor.

Combat:  In combat, the tribute gatherer uses its two taloned hands to attack for 1d8 hp damage.  If both hands hit, the target is pulled into the tribute gatherer’s gaping maw, where it suffers 5d6 hp damage.  Each tentacle inflicts 1d12 points of damage and a roll of 17 or better means that the victim is wrapped up and suffers 1d12 hp squeezing damage each round thereafter (Bend Bars roll to escape).

In addition to its multiple melee attacks, the tribute gatherer can use its telekinesis ability, which throws an object (or person) of 500 lbs or less 30’ away.  This ability can be used every other round.

If in danger, this monster can spew out a black, caustic ink that causes 2d12 hp acid damage (save vs. breath weapon for half damage) which covers an area up to 100’ square. It can do this once every three rounds.  Tribute gatherers have a 20% resistance to magic and can only be hit by +2 or better weapons.

Ecology:  These horrid creatures dwell primarily in the Abyss on Umberlee’s layer.  A select few are sent by Umberlee to Toril where they prowl the oceans and travel to her temples.  There they collect treasure that is used to start new shrines and temples to Umberlee.  They are known to be carnivorous, and there is no ocean creature that will even approach a tribute gatherer, save for a fish that has been summoned by a priest of Umberlee to deliver a message to the tribute gatherer.  When it arrives, the fish opens its mouth, and the tribute gatherer receives the message (typically a summons to collect treasure or for help).  After the message is complete, the monster eats the messenger.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #64 (1997).


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

Neat!

Thoughts: we need to give them a real name, and say that they're used by the churches of evil underwater gods to collect tribute, among other things. Like how barbazu are referred to as "bearded devil" in parentheses next to their name in the header of their entry.

The bite when they hit with both claws sounds like our modified rend we've been using so often lately. The breath weapon probably needs a more standardized size, but could also make do with being more powerful for the HD.

Who wrote this adventure, anyway? Some of the mechanics (a caustic version of ink, bites only if it hits with other attacks) sound like the devilfish in Pathfinder.


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## Shade (May 28, 2009)

It was written by Paul and Shari Culota.

In fact, why not throw a nod out to 'em with the fancy "Abyssal name", and call 'em Culota?


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## demiurge1138 (May 28, 2009)

Works for me.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Let's figure out some ability scores.

Int is Exceptional (15-16).

A giant octopus (Large) has Str 20, Dex 15, Con 13.

Here are the scores of other Large demons around the same HD:
Vrock: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 14, Wis 16, Cha 16
Bulezau: Str 22, Dex 14, Con 24, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 10
Cerebrelith: Str 22, Dex 13, Con 25, Int 15, Wis 18, Cha 21
Laghathti (also octopoid): Str 20, Dex 13, Con 22, Int 5, Wis 15, Cha 12

So maybe Str 20, Dex 15, Con 25, Int 15, Wis 16, Cha 16?


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## demiurge1138 (May 29, 2009)

I think we should bump Str back to 22-23.


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Sounds good.

Added to Homebrews.  (Post #666...how approrpiate for a demon )


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## freyar (May 29, 2009)

This is excellent!  I'm glad you already gave it a new name, or else I was going to have to suggest that (and seriously, the adventure had a cleric of Umberlee named Umberlina?!?!).  

Abilities, etc, look good, though we might want to bump the natural armor, maybe.

I agree with the bite version of rend (which is that, maul?).  It also looks like the tentacles get improved grab and constrict.  

Treat the caustic ink as a breath weapon?

DR 10 or 15/magic?  Or switch to good, like other demons of similar HD?


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## Shade (May 29, 2009)

Suggested natural armor boost?

Yes to improved grab and constrict.

Here's maul as we've done it before...

Maul (Ex): A tribute gather that hits an opponent with bot its claw attacks immediately hits with its subsequent bite attack.

Should we add bite as a secondary attack on the full attack line, or limit to only after grabbing foes?   The roper allows a bite without catching prey first.

I prefer DR good (and/or cold iron).

Caustic ink does sound similar to a breath weapon.   Demiurge mentioned a similar ability on a Pathfinder creature, so we might look there for inspiration.


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## demiurge1138 (May 30, 2009)

The Dagon's Blood ability of the devilfish is a 20ft burst on land, 20ft cloud in water. On land, it's a grease spell, in the water, it's concealment + nausea.


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## Shade (Jun 1, 2009)

Interesting.

I think we can retain the dimensions and concealment in water, but we should probably drop the grease and nausea and go for straight acid damage.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 1, 2009)

Maybe +10 or +11 on the natural armor.  I guess +9 isn't bad compared to the giant octopus or even the kraken.

Secondary bite to go with Maul sounds right.  There's also a typo: "bot" instead of "both."
We should probably give the tentacles extraordinary reach.

DR good, possibly or cold iron.

Kind of torn on the caustic ink.  I like the idea of concealment with acid, but I'm not sure about grease on land.  How does Dagon's Blood disperse in water?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 2, 2009)

In a burst. I prefer straight acid damage on land. I don't think we should model this on Dagon's blood, just pointing it out as a similar ability.


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

Few parts that stand out for me would be:

Level Adjustment: N/A  Way too many abilities to be anything other than a +15-17 character.
Treasure: Standard, except in lair then Nonstandard or Double Good.  These are collectors, some of their quirky behavior they collect odds and ends for their mistress.

Feats: Improved Grab, Constrict, Skill Focus (Spot).  This thing seeks out items, why not make it's abilities in spot/search insanely good?


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

Updated.

Does the caustic ink look OK?



> In addition to its multiple melee attacks, the tribute gatherer can use its telekinesis ability, which throws an object (or person) of 500 lbs or less 30’ away. This ability can be used every other round.




Telekinetis (violent thrust only) once every 2 rounds?


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## Leopold (Jun 2, 2009)

Both abilities are reasonably balanced.


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## freyar (Jun 2, 2009)

Looking pretty good here, and agreed on the telekinetic thrust.

I believe constrict damage is the same as tentacle damage, usually.


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## Shade (Jun 2, 2009)

That does appear to be the standard, although the giant octopus does quite a bit more than its tentacle.

How's this?

Telekinetic Thrust (Su): Every other round, a tribute gatherer may lash out with telekinetic energy. This functions as the telekinesis spell (caster level equals culota's Hit Dice), but can only use the violent thrust option (Will DC 18 negates). The maximum weight it can throw is 500 pounds. The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 3, 2009)

Telekinetic thrust looks good, but why is the bite at a lower attack bonus than all of its other secondary attacks? The constrict damage should also have full Str bonus attached to it.

As for feats, Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack would work for the other three. I agree with Leopold that a racial bonus to Spot and Search would be appropriate, and we could also give it Appraise so it can find the most valuable items possible.

As for its summons, how about 1d4 babaus with the aquatic subtype, the amphibious SQ and a swim speed equal to land speed?


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## freyar (Jun 3, 2009)

Those feats are good.

I'll agree to the skill bonuses.  Appraise, Intimidate, Knowledge (religion), Listen, Search, Spellcraft, Spot, Swim, Use Magic Device, one more?  I'm thinking Spellcraft might help with appraising magic items, at least if we give it a detect magic SLA (or even identify/analyze dweomer). 

I appreciate what you're trying to do with the summons, but there are so many other cool monsters.  How about 1d4 or 1d6 skulvyns (FF), with an option for aquatic babau if not using the FF?


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## Leopold (Jun 3, 2009)

Why not have the options of 2 choices: land and sea.

Give them a choice of 2 summons per area 1 from the MM the other from the FF.  These things are upper level baddies, why not give them a bit of backing from the Bitch Queen.


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## Shade (Jun 3, 2009)

Updated.

Skulvyn, like the tribute gatherer, can function on both land and sea.   How about multiple fiendish octopi and/or a fiendish giant octopi?

I like the aquatic babau idea as an option for those without the FF.

I'm thinking something like this...

Summon Tanar'ri (Sp): Once per day a culota can attempt to summon 2d6 fiendish octopi or 1d6 skulvyn* with a 50% chance of success or a fiendish giant octopus or another tribute gatherer with a 20% chance of success. This ability is the equivalent of a 8th-level spell.

*If you are not using the Fiend Folio in your campaign, replace with 1d4 babaus with the aquatic subtype, the amphibious SQ and a swim speed equal to land speed.


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## Leopold (Jun 3, 2009)

Can never have too many fiendish octupi!  go for it

Advancement: None ? I don't see these things getting bigger or more powerful. Perhaps I missed the memo.

LA: -    Too many abilties and HD, you are looking at a 16th level PC at least.

Treasure: See my post above. Standard if random. In lair Double Goods/Items.

Weight: 300lbs?  It's a big blob and octopi are rather light when you take them out of water.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

Agreed that there's no need for an LA. It doesn't exactly scream "playable".


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah, I'll second that agreement on LA.  But I definitely support Advancement.  

The similar HD vrock advances as follows:  11–14 HD (Large); 15–30 HD (Huge)?  This also somewhat mimics giant octopi advancement.  Stick with that here?



> They have two 6’ long arms ending in hands with sharp claws as well as two 12’ tentacles, much like those of an octopus.




It sounds like we should give them extended reach for the tentacles.

Also, I think we should give them greater teleport (like most demons) and plane shift 1/week in order to return particularly pleasing tributes to their masters.


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## Leopold (Jun 4, 2009)

Shade said:


> Yeah, I'll second that agreement on LA.  But I definitely support Advancement.
> 
> The similar HD vrock advances as follows:  11–14 HD (Large); 15–30 HD (Huge)?  This also somewhat mimics giant octopi advancement.  Stick with that here?




That's applicable then. 





> It sounds like we should give them extended reach for the tentacles.




A normal ocotpus has 20' reach on those 2 tentacles.  Tack it on there.



> Also, I think we should give them greater teleport (like most demons) and plane shift 1/week in order to return particularly pleasing tributes to their masters.




Agreed or else how would it get back home?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

Agreed to greater reach with its tentacles, addition of travelling SLAs.


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## Shade (Jun 4, 2009)

Updated.

CR 10?  They are slightly deadlier than the equal HD, CR 9 vrock.


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## Leopold (Jun 4, 2009)

CR 10 sounds fair. I can see this giving Level 7-9 PCs problems especially with it's summoning ability.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 4, 2009)

Yeah, let's go CR 10. Its AC is worse than a vrock's is, but it has a higher damage output, especially with constriction and maul.


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## freyar (Jun 5, 2009)

Looks good!  CR 10, and it's done.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

_At the back of the chamber stands a fearsome, six-armed statue of a woman with the torso of a coiled snake.  The statue stares across the chamber with cold, serpent-like eyes and holds its threatening poise.  In bront of the statue is a long, blood-stained slab._

*Statue of Shaktari:* INT non-; AL CE; AC -1; MV 18, fly 18 (D), climb 12, burrow 9; HD 21; hp 168; THAC0 -3; #AT 6 arms; DMG 3d6 (x6); SA breath weapon (60’ x 60’ poison cloud once/turn; save or die after 1d4 rounds of helplessness); SD magical weapons needed to hit; edged/pierced weapons inflict half damage; immune to fire, cold, electricity, poison, and paralysis; MR 100%; SZ H (12’ tall); ML 20; XP 48,000; New monster.

Attached to the front of the slab is a pair of steel manacles.  When a living creature is placed in the manacles and a special incantation is recited, Shaktari animates the statue and proceeds to tear the hapless victim to shreds.  The victim’s life force is devoured, and the statue reverts to its inanimate state.  No amount of magic (not even a wish spell) can revive a person slain this way.

The statue also animates if deliberately defiled.  (This doesn’t include accidental damage caused by stray missiles or random magical effects.)  The statue is not fixed to its platform and can pursue defilers anywhere in Vudra.  The statue can also fly, dig through soft earth, and scale sheer surfaces.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #60 (1996).


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Note that Shaktari is "Queen of Mariliths".   James Jacobs gave her the following special powers in one of the Demonomicon articles that might be worth using for inspiration...

Additional Arms (Ex): Shaktari has eight arms rather than six, allowing her to make an additional two weapon attacks beyond those most mariliths make.

Aura of Toxin (Su): Most creatures within 120 feet of Shaktari automatically lose any immunity to poison they may possess. Constructs, elementals, and undead are unaffected by Shaktari's aura, as are any creatures she chooses to exclude from the effects. Neutralize poison, delay poison, and any other spell that attempts to prevent a poison effect from taking place do not function within 120 feet of Shaktari.

Poison (Su): Any weapon Shaktari wilds becomes coated in poison--this applies to her tail slap attack as well. Initial and secondary damage from this poison is 3d6 Constitution. The save DC is Constitution-based.


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## freyar (Jun 10, 2009)

Well, I think additional arms are a given.  Poison weapons, probably, though maybe toned down some.  Not sure about the aura of toxin.  That might be too much for the statue.


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## Shade (Jun 10, 2009)

Agreed.  The poison breath should adequately represent her venomous aspects.

I like this creature, as it's reminiscent of the retriever, a demonic construct.  It also reminds me quite a bit of the blackstone gigant in Fiend Folio, one of my favorite newer creatures.  

I'd imagine the stats will closely follow the greater stone golem's:  Str 37, Dex 7, Con —, Int —, Wis 11, Cha 1, which perfectly emulates a blackstone gigant's physical scores downsized to Huge.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

Wait... Vudra?! James Jacobs, you clever bastard... Vudra is the India analogue in Pathfinder!


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

That guy is the best.  

Added to Homebrews.

Natural armor?   Greater stone golem has +21; blackstone gigant has +27


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

+24 Natural Armor


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

Agreed to +24. Strike a balance twixt the two.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Sounds good.



> SA breath weapon (60’ x 60’ poison cloud once/turn; save or die after 1d4 rounds of helplessness)




Modify the iron golem's breath weapon?

Breath Weapon (Su): 10-foot cube, cloud of poisonous gas lasting 1 round, free action once every 1d4+1 rounds; initial damage 1d4 Con, secondary damage 3d4 Con, Fortitude DC 19 negates. The save DC is Constitution-based. 



> SD magical weapons needed to hit; edged/pierced weapons inflict half damage




DR 15/bludgeoning and magic?  Or switch to /adamantine like the stone golem and blacktone gigant?


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## Leopold (Jun 11, 2009)

Yes, modify the breath weapon for size 60x60, keep damage the same, this is a semi-avatar of a goddess/demoness after all, it's gonna hurt when it does this. We could reduce the radius if it's too deadly.


I like the DR/15 bludgenoing and magic.  These are bad mama jammas but not invulnerable. Shame we can't restrict it to +X magic weapons.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 11, 2009)

I prefer adamantine DR. It's construct standard. We could make it adamantine and bludgeoning if we wanted to be really mean.

As for the breath weapon, how about initial damage unconcious for 1d4 rounds, secondary damage 3d4 Con or death? I'd rather make the secondary damage death. These guys are high-CR, after all, and there's precedent (pit fiends). But if the majority decides to go for Con damage, I won't fight it.


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## Shade (Jun 11, 2009)

Let's be really mean.  

I'm usually opposed to straight-out death, but these are special links to one of the cruelest creatures the Multiverse has to offer, so why not?


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Death is good for the poison, it should be tough.

I'm fine with adamantine and bludgeoning if we're being mean.


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## Leopold (Jun 12, 2009)

Cruel savage sumnabitches. 

What about : 2d8 con damage primary and then 2d8 con damage if fail save. I don't know any PC that has 4d8 worth of con. Minimum of 16 off the bat you are taking out mages, sorcerers off the bat, fighters by 2/3 and cleric's by 1/2 at least. 

Ada/Bludgeoning is fine. If y'all want to go balls out, lets do it up.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Well, I agree that 2d8/2d8 Con will probably kill a lot of PCs.  If we're not going to go with straight death, that's a fine poison to me.


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## Leopold (Jun 12, 2009)

freyar said:


> Well, I agree that 2d8/2d8 Con will probably kill a lot of PCs.  If we're not going to go with straight death, that's a fine poison to me.




I know most 3.x players do not like the idea of instant death without much say. A saving throw will at least give the illusion of hope that they make it out alive.  Maybe I'm softening a bit in my old DM age of not wanting to kill them outright but prolong the suffering and misery with presence of false hope and maybe a prayer.


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## freyar (Jun 12, 2009)

Well, even with secondary damage of death, they'd get a save.  It's just that they then wouldn't have the hope that the statue rolls low on the Con damage.


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## Leopold (Jun 12, 2009)

I like false hope.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2009)

Let's stick to death. I mean, this is the avatar of the goddess of poison. The massive Con damage seems simultaneously weaker and meaner, somehow. Death is nice and straight forward. Besides, at high level, there's plenty of ways to get immunity/resistances to poison (I'm looking at you, heroes' feast).


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## Leopold (Jun 13, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Let's stick to death. I mean, this is the avatar of the goddess of poison. The massive Con damage seems simultaneously weaker and meaner, somehow. Death is nice and straight forward. Besides, at high level, there's plenty of ways to get immunity/resistances to poison (I'm looking at you, heroes' feast).




Fine with me. I thought they completely tossed out "Save or Die" was sticking to the 3e paradigm. If death is what it must be death it is.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 13, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Fine with me. I thought they completely tossed out "Save or Die" was sticking to the 3e paradigm. If death is what it must be death it is.




Finger of death
Slay living
Death domain power
Phantasmal killer
Destruction
Power word: kill doesn't even have a save!

Save or die is well alive in 3.X.


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

Updated.


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## Leopold (Jun 15, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> Finger of death
> Slay living
> Death domain power
> Phantasmal killer
> ...



Well slap a wig on me and call me sally.


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Leopold said:


> Well slap a wig on me and call me sally.



Hi, Sally! 

Want to put poison of some type on the slam attacks, or does that seem too much?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

That might be a bit excessive, since it's already unleashing a $#^@load of damage with its eight powerful slam attacks!


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

Makes sense. 

Ok, how about Immunity to Magic?  We don't have any guidance in the original text, but what about following the stone golem?  This is stone, right?


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## Shade (Jun 15, 2009)

That should work.  We might also mix in spells with the good descriptor dealing normal damage, or note that it is treated as a demon for purposes of spells that affect them.   Thoughts?


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## freyar (Jun 15, 2009)

All that sounds good!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Spells with the good descriptor should affect them normally, plus stone giant stuff.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

We might also look to the demonflesh golem for inspiration...

A spell with the chaotic or evil descriptor (such as chaos hammer or unholy blight) breaks any slow effect on the golem and cures 1 point of damage for each 3 points of damage it would otherwise deal. It is fully affected by spells with the law or good descriptor, unless its construct traits make it immune to the spell's effects (it cannot be blinded by a holy aura, for example, because that effect allows a Fortitude save).

As an extraplanar creature, a demonflesh golem on the Material Plane can be driven back to its home plane by a dispel evil or dispel chaos spell (as well as by holy word or dictum), but it is not affected by banishment or dismissal since they are not good or lawful spells.


Speaking of extraplanar, I think this should have that subtype and hail from the Abyss.  Thoughts?


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 16, 2009)

Agreed.


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## Shade (Jun 16, 2009)

Updated.

CR 14?  It's deadlier than an iron golem, but not nearly as dangerous as a CR 15 drakestone golem.

A statue of Shaktari is 12 feet tall and weighs x pounds.  (A stone golem is 9 feet tall and weighs around 2,000 pounds.  A greater stone golem is 18 feet tall and weighs around 22,000 pounds.)


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## Leopold (Jun 16, 2009)

CR 14 looks fair. 12ft ad 12,000lbs? It's marble right?


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## freyar (Jun 16, 2009)

This all looks good to me!

Somehow I hadn't made the connection that Vudra is a layer of the Abyss.  Must be a scary place to visit on Golarion, then!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

I think CR 15 is appropriate, actually. Although the drakestone golem has more HD and a better AC, this guy gets more attacks that do more damage, and the poison is in a 100 foot cube, rather than a 30 foot cone of petrification.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

OK, sounds reasonable.  That is a large cloud of death!

Updated.

Thoughts on construction?  I'm leaning towards none, assuming these are gifts from Shaktari herself and not the creations of her servants.  I'm might be convinced, though.


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## Leopold (Jun 17, 2009)

You can still make it constructable but difficult. This is a very very powerful golem/creation that would be guarding a main temple and not something easily done. Difficulty would be high, but still plausable.   Less construction, crafting it physically, and more a Ritual/Summoning using materials at hand and the golem rises up out of the slab like the T1000 from Terminator 2.


I'm tempted to say  it takes a solid block of black marble/ Obsidian /Adamantite sheet of no lesser than 120,000Gold, a gallon of Wyvern's blood (or poison), and a live Octopus.

The octopus must be killed and it's severed head dipped in the bucket and the contents scattered on the slab why casting the spell. Make the spell a Ritual.


Spell:
CL 14th; Craft Construct, poisonous cloud, x, x, x, caster must be at least 14th level; Price 170,000 gp; Cost 120,000 gp + 7,640 XP

Trying to figure out what other spells you'll need to cast in conjunction to get it to work. This part will take a touch of work.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 17, 2009)

I prefer the idea that these are summoned/called/sent by Shaktari rather than constructed.


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## Shade (Jun 17, 2009)

One vote for construction, two against.  Anyone else wanna weigh in?


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## Leopold (Jun 18, 2009)

My suggestion was mostly for NPC bad guys and not for PCs to summon. If they really want to do it I guess they could, but really it's more for flavor text than anything else. 

In essence what I described above was a "summoning" of the golem from the parts at hand to "make" this thing come alive. Just throwing some spice at it, if the requirements needs to be more difficult I can go through the SRD and buff the costs and spells associated with it. Heck we can sacrifice a virgin or something on the tablet too!


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 18, 2009)

If it's summoned, all that's necessary is a greater planar binding or a gate. No construction costs. Period.


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## Shade (Jun 18, 2009)

demiurge1138 said:


> If it's summoned, all that's necessary is a greater planar binding or a gate. No construction costs. Period.




And that works for me.

Updated.

So are we done here?


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## Leopold (Jun 18, 2009)

Yup. She looks good.


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## demiurge1138 (Jun 19, 2009)

I agree. We're done here.


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## freyar (Jun 19, 2009)

Looks good!


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## Shade (Oct 23, 2009)

*Kada*
CLIMATE/TERRAIN: Any 
FREQUENCY: Very rare
ORGANIZATION: Solitary
ACTIVITY CYCLE: Night
DIET: None
INELLIGENCE: Low to very (5-12)
TREASURE: Nil
ALIGNMENT: Any
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVEMENT: Fly 12 (A)
HIT DICE: 4+4
THAC0: 15
NO. OF ATTACKS: 1
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 2-8
SPECIAL ATTACKS: see below
SPECIAL DEFENSES: see below
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 10%
SIZE: M
MORALE: Elite (13-14)
XP VALUE: 975 with special attack: 1,400

Kada are magical spirits formed when a person dies in a manner which evokes emotion not quite sufficient to cause the formation of a ghost.  The dying person’s emotion casts a shadow, and a kada is formed.  The dying person’s soul then continues to the Otherlands, leaving the kada behind.  Kada always have a purpose related to what caused the emotion which created them.

Kada are spirits and cannot speak or communicate by telepathy, though they can understand all langauages which the person who formed them could understand.  ESP allows the user to read some of the kada’s thoughts.  A kada appears to a detect magic or detect invisibility spell as a colored cloud appropriate to the emotion which created it.

Kada are naturally invisible and cannot move far from the place wher they were created without the help of another being.  They have only a limited ability to interact with the world, being able to move one type (or group of types) of item appropriate to the person who created the kada.  For example, a carpenter’s kada might be able to move any saw in its range.

Combat:  Kada attack with whatever they can affect; this attack always causes 2-8 hp damage.  The range of a kada’s object moving is 60’, but while a kada is moving something it must stay stationary.  Some kada have special attacks depending on what they can affect:  a kada able to affect the wind might have a suffocation attack, whereas one able to affect bow and arrow would have a ranged missile attack.

The kada’s natural invisibility and its ephemeral nature make it difficult to hit.  For an enemy able to see the invisible or with continuous detect magic, the kada’s AC is 8.  A kada can be harmed only by items or creatures which are in some way magical.  It suffers half damage from magical cold or fire.

A magical spirit, a kada cannot be turned.  It can, however, be dispelled by a successful dispel magic vs. 9th level, which destroys the kada.  A kada cannot enter an anti-magic shell, or similar areas where magic is not active.

Habitat/Society:  Kada always have a goal that they continually attempt to achieve.  The goal is always something that was important to the person who formed the kada, but the nature of the goal can vary widely.  As kada float on the magical currents of the world, they usually have special knowledge pertaining to their goal.

Kada often run into one major problem when attempting to fulfill their goal:  they are unable to move more than 300 yards beyond the place where they were created, unless an intelligent creature moves a substantial item from that place.  If this occurs, then the kada can move with the item.  The kada itself cannot move items beyond the 300 yard radius.  Kada can thus be found anywhere where there are  or have been humans or demihumans.

Ecology:  Kada are formed more often by those who have the potential to work magic than by those who do not.  Nevertheless they are still very rare and have never yet been created intentionally.  If a kada is unable to fulfill its goal or is older than 100 years, it starts to erode and eventually breaks up.

When a kada has acheieved its goal, it dissipates.  There is a 20% chance that the magic released by the kada’s dissipation instills some minor magical power in a nearby item.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #57 (1996).


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## freyar (Oct 25, 2009)

Ethereal and manifesting like ghosts?  Always invisible (dispellable, but automatically reactivating?).

Also probably rejuvenation like a ghost.

They're tied to some particular significant object (that they don't seem to be able to move), but they have some kind of (limited?) mage hand type ability.

Probably undead, but I think a case could be made for magical beast if we wanted to go that route (esp with the turning immunity).


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## Shade (Oct 27, 2009)

I was thinking outsider.  

A difficult fit, these fellas.


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## freyar (Oct 27, 2009)

Definitely.  I'm not quite getting the outsider vibe, though, as they're what's left behind by someone in the process of becoming an outsider (petitioner, specifically).  I'm also not sure what they'd exemplify.  But you could convince me!

I still lean toward undead, though.  They're kind of like 1/2 ghosts.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 28, 2009)

I think undead is the most applicable, but it's really squidgy. Maybe tomb-tainted aberration?


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

It is squidgy, most certainly!   freyar's 1/2 ghost comment is enough to make me think we should try 'em out as undead first and see where that leads.

So, keep 'em ethereal or simplify to incorporeal?


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## freyar (Oct 28, 2009)

You know, on reflection, they don't sound ethereal.  Let's just go incorporeal.


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## Shade (Oct 28, 2009)

That would be easier.  

So that takes care of Str and Con.  Suggestions for ability scores?  Int is Low to very (5-12).  AC translates to 16, suggesting decent Dex and/or Cha.


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## freyar (Oct 29, 2009)

Let's put Int in the middle at about 7 or 8 and put Dex and Cha both at the 16-17 range.  Wis somewhere around 12-13, I guess.


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 29, 2009)

Stats sound good so far.


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## Shade (Oct 29, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> A kada appears to a detect magic or detect invisibility spell as a colored cloud appropriate to the emotion which created it.




What to do with that?



> Kada are naturally invisible and cannot move far from the place wher they were created without the help of another being.




Repurpose this?

Natural Invisibility (Su): This ability is constant, allowing a stalker to remain invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.



> They have only a limited ability to interact with the world, being able to move one type (or group of types) of item appropriate to the person who created the kada.  For example, a carpenter’s kada might be able to move any saw in its range.




Limited form of this?

Telekinesis (Su): A ghost can use telekinesis as a standard action (caster level 12th or equal to the ghost’s HD, whichever is higher). When a ghost uses this power, it must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.



> Combat:  Kada attack with whatever they can affect; this attack always causes 2-8 hp damage.  The range of a kada’s object moving is 60’, but while a kada is moving something it must stay stationary.  Some kada have special attacks depending on what they can affect:  a kada able to affect the wind might have a suffocation attack, whereas one able to affect bow and arrow would have a ranged missile attack.




Defer to telekinesis, or do something extra?



> It suffers half damage from magical cold or fire.




Simplify to resistance to cold and fire 10 or so?



> A magical spirit, a kada cannot be turned.  It can, however, be dispelled by a successful dispel magic vs. 9th level, which destroys the kada.  A kada cannot enter an anti-magic shell, or similar areas where magic is not active.




Turn immunity, and some "vulnerable to anti-magic" ability?



> Kada often run into one major problem when attempting to fulfill their goal:  they are unable to move more than 300 yards beyond the place where they were created, unless an intelligent creature moves a substantial item from that place.  If this occurs, then the kada can move with the item.  The kada itself cannot move items beyond the 300 yard radius.  Kada can thus be found anywhere where there are  or have been humans or demihumans.




Didn't we do a similar "bound to item" ability earlier?



> If a kada is unable to fulfill its goal or is older than 100 years, it starts to erode and eventually breaks up.



j

Flavor text, or part of rejuvenation ability writeup?



> When a kada has acheieved its goal, it dissipates.  There is a 20% chance that the magic released by the kada’s dissipation instills some minor magical power in a nearby item.




Some "enchant item" power?


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## Leopold (Oct 30, 2009)

Shade said:


> Added to Homebrews.
> 
> 
> 
> What to do with that?




Give an example of color: 
Died Angry: Red
Murder: Black
Sad: Blue
Died during Sex: ORGASMO! (i keed)
Leave it upto the DM to handle as flavor text.





> Repurpose this?
> 
> Natural Invisibility (Su): This ability is constant, allowing a stalker to remain invisible even when attacking. This ability is inherent and not subject to the invisibility purge spell.




They are bound to the location much like some other undead who died near their corpse. Limit their range/radius and use this ability. Outside of said range they become visible.





> Limited form of this?
> 
> Telekinesis (Su): A ghost can use telekinesis as a standard action (caster level 12th or equal to the ghost’s HD, whichever is higher). When a ghost uses this power, it must wait 1d4 rounds before using it again.




more flavor text.



> Defer to telekinesis, or do something extra?



defer to TK concerning items.



> Simplify to resistance to cold and fire 10 or so?



10/10 is fine 



> Turn immunity, and some "vulnerable to anti-magic" ability?




Yes to turn immunity.  If dispel magic is used creature needs to make a Will save vs casters level to save or be destroyed.  



> Didn't we do a similar "bound to item" ability earlier?




this sounds like a Demi-liche's Phylactery (sp)



> Flavor text, or part of rejuvenation ability writeup?



total flavor text. Any DM who will use this critter will have it exist for it's expected lifespan or as part of the adventure to outlast it and have it die. I can see that being part of an adventure arc "In 10 days it will cease to exist, the PCs must solve the mystery or else!"



> Some "enchant item" power?




Random minor enchantment on the item that it's bound to. 1-25% on the random roll or at max  +1


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## demiurge1138 (Oct 31, 2009)

I like the antimagic vulnerability, them creating magical treasures and the deference to telekinesis.


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## freyar (Oct 31, 2009)

I agree with attacking only through telekinesis, and I think most of the ideas here sound good.

A couple of Shade's questions:
Make the 100 years part of rejuvenation.  
I think the bound to item you're thinking about was the guardian yugoloths.


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## Shade (Nov 2, 2009)

Updated.

Here's the yugoloth bit...

Devoted Guardian (Su): A guardian yugoloth that agrees to protect an object is mystically bound to it. Until it completes its term or service or is released from its agreement, it may not move more than 300 ft from the object it guards. If the yugoloth is forced outside that range, it is instantly teleported back to a designated area adjacent to the treasure, as if by a word of recall spell.


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## freyar (Nov 2, 2009)

I think we could just increase the range (300 yd=900 ft vs 300 ft) or not, really, but that ability seems just right to me.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 3, 2009)

I agree with freyar.


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## Shade (Nov 3, 2009)

Updated.

Any other abilities, or shall we move on to feats and skills?


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## freyar (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't think we need more SAs, but I'd like to clarify a couple of things.

1) Does dispel magic really destroy a kada, or can it still rejuvenate?

2) Does a kada's destruction enchant an item if it's going to rejuvenate later, or only when it's finally destroyed?  

I'm not even sure I know how I want to answer these.


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## Shade (Nov 4, 2009)

Good questions!



freyar said:


> 1) Does dispel magic really destroy a kada, or can it still rejuvenate?




I'm guessing not permanently, since it's a relatively low-level spell, but it might be an interesting twist.



freyar said:


> 2) Does a kada's destruction enchant an item if it's going to rejuvenate later, or only when it's finally destroyed?




Ooh...nasty loophole.  Yeah, I think we need to clarify "final destruction".   Nice catch.


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## freyar (Nov 5, 2009)

Let's say that it can still rejuvenate after dispel magic.  We should also note that final destruction could involve failing the save on the rejuvenation.


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## Leopold (Nov 5, 2009)

I"m going to say it will enchant it when it's Destroyed and not banished.   Like any movie you've seen before where the big bad ghosty gets obliterated and leaves something shiney behind. Ghostbusters comes to mind with the traps 

If it's banished for a period of time then no imbuing gets done.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Updated.

Skills: 21

Feats: 2


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Uhh, Spot, Listen, and maybe something like Diplomacy?

I'm blanking on the feats here.


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Hmmm...Diplomacy would be difficult in most cases.  Perhaps Craft (calligraphy) or some other writing-related skill that they might be able to emulate with telekinesis?

Search also seems a possibility.

Iron Will seems an appropriate feat.  Maybe Skill Focus in one of the chosen skills?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

Split some ranks between Search and Craft (any one) that's appropriate to the kada in question?

Those feats appeal, actually.  Let's give it 5 ranks in Search and 2 ranks in Craft plus Skill Focus (Craft)?


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## Shade (Nov 9, 2009)

Updated.

CR 2?

Advancement: None?  5-8 HD (Medium)?


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## freyar (Nov 9, 2009)

They can't actually do a whole lot to PCs, at least if the DM follows the flavory restriction on telekinesis.  I might cut back to CR 1.  They are pesky, though.

I kind of like no advancement.  Anything more powerful would have been a ghost.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Hmmm...as written, a kada could deal 12d6 points of damage with its telekinesis ability!

I think we should tone it back to caster level 2nd, so it is limited to 50 pounds and 2d6 damage.

Even then, I think it still warrants CR 2, as it effectively has the equivalent of 2 greatsword attacks at range on the rounds its telekinesis are available (as is nearly impossible to locate and nigh-indestructible on the rounds between against a low-level party).


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## freyar (Nov 10, 2009)

Wow, we definitely need to cut the caster level on that.  That's way out of line with 4HD.  CR 2 is ok, then.


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## Shade (Nov 10, 2009)

Updated.

I believe we are finished.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

They look good!


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Let's return to the land of the living...

*Phantasm*
FREQUENCY: Very rare
NO. APPEARING: 1
ARMOR CLASS: 4
MOVE: 18”//24”
HIT DICE: 4
% IN LAIR: 5%
TREASURE TYPE: U
NO. OF ATTACKS: 2 hooves
DAMAGE/ATTACK: 1-16
SPECIAL ATTACKS: Nil
SPECIAL DEFENSES: Nil
MAGIC RESISTANCE: 75%
lNTELLIGENCE: High
ALIGNMENT: Neutral good
SIZE: M (8’ high at the shoulder)
PSIONIC ABILITY: Nil
LEVEL/XP VALUE: IV/150 + 4 per hp

A phantasm appears to be a large, white deer with rainbow-colored wings.  It lives on the Ethereal Plane, coming to the Prime Material Plane only once every hundred years or so.  A phantasm usually wanders about, observing the many things that go on in the world and collecting various magical items to take back to its lair in the Ethereal Plane, where 1-6 other phantasms await it.  Phantasms draw nourishment from the energies of magical devices, though they do not deplete the magical items in so doing.  A phantasm might reward those who help it with a gift from its treasure store, but this is a very rare occurrence.

Phantasms never attack any creature first, and they fight only if they cannot escape pursuit.  Phantasms continuously use detect magic and read magic spells, and they know how to speak the common tongue.  Once per day, each may cast haste upon itself, and once every 111 years, the phantasm may plane shift itself from the Ethereal Plane to the Prime Material Plane.  It must shift back to the Ethereal Plane within one year, or the phantasm permanently loses 1 hp per day over a year that it stays, until the creature dies.  Some good-aligned persons have befriended phantasms, but such friendships are always brief.  A phantasm rarely tells any being where it has its lair, as it fears for the safety of its fellows.

If anyone tries to harm a phantasm but the creature escapes, the phantasm may cast a special curse upon one of its tormentors (usually the one the phantasm dislikes the most).  The victim must save vs. spells at -4, or else an antipathy spell with a permanent duration is cast upon him.  The spell is designed to repel all humans, demihumans, and humanoids, making the victim stand out easily in a crowd.  Other phantasms immediately sense the presence of such a person from one mile away and avoid the person at all costs.  Only a wish can remove this curse, and few good-aligned creatures will do so.

The wounds of a phantasm can only be cured by spells cast by a cleric of 9th or greater level, or by magical spells normally used by such characters (heal, restoration, etc.)

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #5 (1987).


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## Cleon (Nov 11, 2009)

Modify a Pegasus into an Outsider (Good, Extraplanar) or a Magical Beast (Extraplanar)? I prefer Outsider, like a Nightmare.

The continuous _detect magic_ and _read magic_ are easy, as is the 1/day _haste_ SLA. The _antipathy_ curse is very tough for a 4HD creature - that's an 8th level spell! Make it the equivalent of _mark of justice_?

The 1-16 hoof damage is a bit odd, especially as it lists 2 attacks. Maybe it's a typo and should be 1-6/1-6?


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Odd that they're called phantasms, makes them sound undead.

I'm agreed with Cleon on this, though I'd be equally happy with Outsider or Magical Beast.


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

I heard that.  I stumbled upon them while looking for undead!

Outsider works for me.

Pegasus stats: Str 18, Dex 15, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 13, Cha 13

They remind me a bit of the white hart from Dragon #343 as well.
White Hart:  Str 20, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 18

Int for these fellas is High (13-14).

How about Str 19, Dex 16, Con 15, Int 14, Wis 13, Cha 16?


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Works for me!


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## Shade (Nov 11, 2009)

Added to Homebrews.



> once every 111 years, the phantasm may plane shift itself from the Ethereal Plane to the Prime Material Plane.  It must shift back to the Ethereal Plane within one year, or the phantasm permanently loses 1 hp per day over a year that it stays, until the creature dies.




What to do with that?



> If anyone tries to harm a phantasm but the creature escapes, the phantasm may cast a special curse upon one of its tormentors (usually the one the phantasm dislikes the most).  The victim must save vs. spells at -4, or else an antipathy spell with a permanent duration is cast upon him.  The spell is designed to repel all humans, demihumans, and humanoids, making the victim stand out easily in a crowd.  Other phantasms immediately sense the presence of such a person from one mile away and avoid the person at all costs.  Only a wish can remove this curse, and few good-aligned creatures will do so.






Cleon said:


> The continuous _detect magic_ and _read magic_ are easy, as is the 1/day _haste_ SLA. The _antipathy_ curse is very tough for a 4HD creature - that's an 8th level spell! Make it the equivalent of _mark of justice_?




I like adding the mark of justice, but I don't think it adequately captures what the ability was meant to do.  Although it is an 8th-level spell, it is not one that harms the victim in any way, so I don't find it particularly problematic.  Perhaps we can model it after the yuan-ti's aversion ability?



> The wounds of a phantasm can only be cured by spells cast by a cleric of 9th or greater level, or by magical spells normally used by such characters (heal, restoration, etc.)




That sounds almost identical to this...

Cursed Wound (Ex): The damage a clay golem deals doesn’t heal naturally and resists healing spells. A character attempting to cast a conjuration (healing) spell on a creature damaged by a clay golem must succeed on a DC 26 caster level check, or the spell has no effect on the injured character.


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## freyar (Nov 11, 2009)

Definitely agreed to cursed wound.  Aversion is a good idea for the antipathy curse.

I guess the plane shift should just be a very-limited-use SLA!  Presumably we can combine this with some kind of planar commitment or something.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 12, 2009)

Does "the wounds of a phantasm" mean the damage dealt by a phantasm? Or the damage dealt to one? It's ambiguous.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

True enough.  They're much tougher if we treat it as wounds caused by the phantasm, but, as Good creatures, they might be very sensitive.


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## Shade (Nov 12, 2009)

Interesting...that is ambiguous.   I'm fine with either approach, although one makes 'em slightly tougher and the other much weaker.


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## freyar (Nov 12, 2009)

Anyone have a tiebreaker vote?


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## Shade (Nov 13, 2009)

In a twist, we could have the cursed wounds work both for and against the phantasm.   Just a thought.


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## Cleon (Nov 13, 2009)

Shade said:


> I heard that.  I stumbled upon them while looking for undead!
> 
> Outsider works for me.
> 
> ...




How about giving them the White Hart's 18 Charisma, since you're talking about giving them an 8th-level spell like ability of _antipathy_?



Shade said:


> In a twist, we could have the cursed wounds work both for and against the phantasm. Just a thought.




I like that idea! It certainly explains why they spend most of their time avoiding the rough-and-tumble of the Prime Material Plane.


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## freyar (Nov 13, 2009)

Cha 18 is fine, and I think maybe we can work with antipathy/mark of justice.  A unique Su curse might balance it better.

I agree that cursed wounds working both ways is a really good idea!


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 14, 2009)

Agreed to cursed wounds working both ways.


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## Cleon (Nov 14, 2009)

By a curious coincidence I came across *this picture* today, which suggests that Phantasms are so common in certain areas of France they need road signs to warn motorists not to run into them.


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## Shade (Nov 16, 2009)

Cleon said:


> By a curious coincidence I came across *this picture* today, which suggests that Phantasms are so common in certain areas of France they need road signs to warn motorists not to run into them.




LOL.  That's awesome.  

Updated.

I can't figure out where the DC 26 comes from in the clay golem's cursed wounds.  Anyone have an idea?


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## freyar (Nov 16, 2009)

It's enough to really frustrate a cleric of level equal to CR?  I'm guessing they wanted about a 20% success rate at party level equal to CR and picked a static DC based on that.  It's probably more sensible to go Cha or Con based, at least for the wounds caused by the phantasm, fixed DC for wounds to the phantasm.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

Let's try to keep them the same.  Go with Charisma-based?  That only makes the DC 15, though.  Pretty easy to beat.  What if we set it equal to the phantasm's spell resistance?  That will be at least 18 for a typical phanasm, depending upon the final CR we decide upon.


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## freyar (Nov 17, 2009)

What about boosting Cha to 18 and adding a +2 racial bonus?  Same result but not quite as funky and not as annoying as a static DC.


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## Shade (Nov 17, 2009)

That works for me.  Any objections?


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## Cleon (Nov 17, 2009)

freyar said:


> What about boosting Cha to 18 and adding a +2 racial bonus?  Same result but not quite as funky and not as annoying as a static DC.




I thought we'd already boosted the Cha to 18?

Anyway, that (with or without a +2 racial bonus) would be fine by me.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

We did agree to Cha 18 upthread, but it hasn't made it into the homebrews yet.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 18, 2009)

That sounds reasonable.


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## Shade (Nov 18, 2009)

Updated.

Let's work on the antipathy/mark of justice thing...



> If anyone tries to harm a phantasm but the creature escapes, the phantasm may cast a special curse upon one of its tormentors (usually the one the phantasm dislikes the most). The victim must save vs. spells at -4, or else an antipathy spell with a permanent duration is cast upon him. The spell is designed to repel all humans, demihumans, and humanoids, making the victim stand out easily in a crowd. Other phantasms immediately sense the presence of such a person from one mile away and avoid the person at all costs. Only a wish can remove this curse, and few good-aligned creatures will do so.




Here's the yuan-ti's aversion...

Aversion (Sp): A yuan-ti abomination can psionically create a compulsion effect targeting one creature within 30 feet. The target must succeed on a DC 22 Will save or gain an aversion to snakes for 10 minutes. Affected creatures must stay at least 20 feet from any snake or yuan-ti, alive or dead; if already within 20 feet, they move away. A subject unable to move away, or one attacked by snakes or yuan-ti, is overcome with revulsion. This revulsion reduces the creature's Dexterity score by 4 points until the effect wears off or the subject is no longer within 20 feet of a snake or yuan-ti. This ability is otherwise similar to antipathy as the spell (caster level 16th). The save DC is Charisma-based.


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## freyar (Nov 18, 2009)

It is a lot like aversion, but in reverse (creatures stay away from the victim rather than vice versa).  But I'd be ok with just taking the aversion ability and rewording, maybe dropping the bit about a penalty for staying in proximity.  Maybe other humanoids should have to make a Will save or move away from the victim.


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## Shade (Nov 19, 2009)

Attempt #1....

Mark of the Phantasm (Su): A phantasm may attempt target a single creature within 30 feet that has attacked it with a special curse. The target must succeed on a DC X Will save or become a pariah among all humanoids and phantams.  An affected creature is indeliby marked as a foe of phantasms, and all phantasms can detect the creature's presence if within one mile.   All humanoids within 30 feet of the creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or gain an aversion to the victim for 10 minutes. Affected humanoids must stay at least 20 feet from the victim, alive or dead; if already within 20 feet, they move away. A humanoid unable to move away, or one attacked by the victim, is overcome with revulsion. This revulsion reduces the creature's Dexterity score by 4 points until the effect wears off or the humanoid is no longer within 20 feet of the victim.  The aversion is a compulsion effect.  This ability is otherwise similar to antipathy as the spell (caster level 16th). The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## freyar (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm not sure I like this part "This revulsion reduces the creature's Dexterity score by 4 points until the effect wears off or the humanoid is no longer within 20 feet of the victim." since the victim of the curse could use it as a weapon of sorts.  Maybe instead say "This revulsion causes the humanoid to become hostile to the victim and lasts until the humanoid is no longer within 20 ft of the curse's victim."


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## Shade (Nov 20, 2009)

Agreed.

Updated.

Should we limit the mark to 1/day or even 1/week?


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

This could easily be exploited as a "Repel Enemies" special quality, especially it the subject is a creature with mainly non-humanoid allies. I'd suggest using one of the following alterations:

(a) It only repels Humanoids with an Indifferent or better disposition towards the subject (so Unfriendly or Hostile folk can pick on the subject without penalty).

(b) Rather than repelling humanoids, the Mark worsens their disposition towards the subject to Unfriendly if they fail their save (kind of a "reverse charm" effect).

I'd prefer to drop the Dex penalty.



Shade said:


> Attempt #1....
> 
> Mark of the Phantasm (Su): A phantasm may attempt target a single creature within 30 feet that has attacked it with a special curse. The target must succeed on a DC X Will save or become a pariah among all humanoids and phantams.  An affected creature is indeliby marked as a foe of phantasms, and all phantasms can detect the creature's presence if within one mile.   All humanoids within 30 feet of the creature must succeed on a DC X Will save or gain an aversion to the victim for 10 minutes. Affected humanoids must stay at least 20 feet from the victim, alive or dead; if already within 20 feet, they move away. A humanoid unable to move away, or one attacked by the victim, is overcome with revulsion. This revulsion reduces the creature's Dexterity score by 4 points until the effect wears off or the humanoid is no longer within 20 feet of the victim.  The aversion is a compulsion effect.  This ability is otherwise similar to antipathy as the spell (caster level 16th). The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +4 racial bonus.


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## Cleon (Nov 20, 2009)

Shade said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Updated.
> 
> Should we limit the mark to 1/day or even 1/week?




I'd go for once a day.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

I'd be ok with 1/day.

Skills: Appraise, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (arcana), Knowledge (the planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Spot, Use Magic Device?

I gave them Appraise, Know (arcana), and UMD because they like to collect magic items.


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## freyar (Nov 20, 2009)

Cleon said:


> This could easily be exploited as a "Repel Enemies" special quality, especially it the subject is a creature with mainly non-humanoid allies. I'd suggest using one of the following alterations:
> 
> (a) It only repels Humanoids with an Indifferent or better disposition towards the subject (so Unfriendly or Hostile folk can pick on the subject without penalty).
> 
> ...



Cleon, did you see the revised version?  It might still need some tweaking along the lines you suggest, but not as much as the first version.


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## Cleon (Nov 21, 2009)

freyar said:


> Cleon, did you see the revised version?  It might still need some tweaking along the lines you suggest, but not as much as the first version.




Yes, I did see it. As written, the target(s) can only melee with the Marked victim if they made the Will DC of the Marked one runs up and attacks then before they can move away, and even then they are at -4 Dex. That would be a pretty useful power for a creature that relies on ranged attacks, and I'd prefer the Mark to be quite clearly detrimental - ie it penalizes the Marked, not those they interact with.

Thus, I'd prefer it to cause hostility rather than revulsion.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2009)

The revised version does cause hostility as a result of revulsion with no penalty (ie, no -4 Dex penalty).  I think having humanoids move away is exactly the point of the curse -- to make it easy for other phantasms to see who's cursed.


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## Cleon (Nov 22, 2009)

freyar said:


> The revised version does cause hostility as a result of revulsion with no penalty (ie, no -4 Dex penalty).  I think having humanoids move away is exactly the point of the curse -- to make it easy for other phantasms to see who's cursed.




So which post is the revised version in? I didn't notice one without the Dex penalty.

As for the other phantasms, doesn't the curse magically inform all Phantasms within a mile as to the Marked position, which rather obviates the need for them to see humanoids being repelled by them to known who's been Marked.


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## freyar (Nov 22, 2009)

Suggested revision was in post 1022, and the new text is already in the homebrews...

Ah, you're right about the other phantasms.  But I think it is also to help notify other knowledgable good-aligned creatures.


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

freyar said:


> Ah, you're right about the other phantasms.  But I think it is also to help notify other knowledgable good-aligned creatures.




Agreed.  And the overall social detriment probably outweighs the tactical benefit in combat.   The poor sod isn't "getting any" while its got the mark!


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## freyar (Nov 23, 2009)

Speaking of, we need to list what spells can break this effect in case there happens to be an evil cleric around.  These are low enough CR that I could see even remove curse (as well as break enchantment and more powerful magics).


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## Shade (Nov 23, 2009)

That seems reasonably appropriate.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Updated.

Feats: 2



			
				Treasure Type U said:
			
		

> 10-80 gems: 90%
> 5-30 jewelry: 80%
> Maps or Magic Items: 1 of each magic excluding potions & scrolls: 70%




Treasure: No coins; triple goods (gems and jewelry only); double items (no potions or scrolls)?

Advancement: 5-16 HD (Large)?

A typical phantasm stands 8 feet high at the shoulder, weighs x pounds, and has a wingspan of 20 feet.


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## Cleon (Nov 24, 2009)

Shade said:


> Updated.
> 
> Feats: 2




Flyby Attack and Iron Will seem good feat picks, the same as a Pegasus.



Shade said:


> Treasure: No coins; triple goods (gems and jewelry only); double items (no potions or scrolls)?




Looks good, although triple items is tempting.



Shade said:


> Advancement: 5-16 HD (Large)?




Shouldn't that be 6-15 HD? I'd also fancy having them advance to Huge somewhere along the line. Perhaps 6-9 HD (Large); 10-15 HD (Huge).



Shade said:


> A typical phantasm stands 8 feet high at the shoulder, weighs x pounds, and has a wingspan of 20 feet.




8 feet at the shoulder is pretty big. A very large horse is about 6 feet and 2000 pounds, and I'm thinking the same 2000 pounds would suit the Phantasm, on the presumption it's got a lightweight body and very long legs. Which doesn't seem that unreasonable, since it's a flier.

Wingspan could be more than that though - 25 feet? 30 feet?


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Flyby Attack and Iron Will seem good feat picks, the same as a Pegasus.




That'll work.



Cleon said:


> Looks good, although triple items is tempting.




Triple items is fine by me.



Cleon said:


> Shouldn't that be 6-15 HD? I'd also fancy having them advance to Huge somewhere along the line. Perhaps 6-9 HD (Large); 10-15 HD (Huge).




Nope. They are 4 HD.  I was just expanding the high end a bit beyond the usual triple HD, instead going quadruple HD.   But I'm fine with going to Huge, so 5-9 HD (Large) and 10-16 HD (Huge)?



Cleon said:


> 8 feet at the shoulder is pretty big. A very large horse is about 6 feet and 2000 pounds, and I'm thinking the same 2000 pounds would suit the Phantasm, on the presumption it's got a lightweight body and very long legs. Which doesn't seem that unreasonable, since it's a flier.
> 
> Wingspan could be more than that though - 25 feet? 30 feet?




2,000 pounds and 25-foot wingspan seems a good fit.


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## freyar (Nov 24, 2009)

All good by me.


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## Shade (Nov 24, 2009)

Updated.

We still need this...



> once every 111 years, the phantasm may plane shift itself from the Ethereal Plane to the Prime Material Plane.  It must shift back to the Ethereal Plane within one year, or the phantasm permanently loses 1 hp per day over a year that it stays, until the creature dies.




How's this?

Planar Journey (Sp): Once every 111 years, a phantasm may enter the Material Plane. This ability transports the phantasm and any treasure it carries, but cannot transport others. It is otherwise similar to the plane shift spell (caster level 13th).

At any point within the next year, the phantasm may use plane shift to return to the Ethereal Plane in a similar manner.

CR 3-4?  Is its mark of the phantasm and haste enough to promote it to a higher CR than the equal HD pegasus?


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## freyar (Nov 25, 2009)

Tough call.  It also has 8 fewer hp, which is worth something in this range.  Speed is less, but AC is better, attacks are the same.  I'll go for CR 4 because of the SR and haste, but I think it's a bit squishy.


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

It's definitely a higher CR than a pegasus. Those cursed wounds!


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## Shade (Nov 25, 2009)

Fair enough.

Updated.

Finished?


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## demiurge1138 (Nov 25, 2009)

I suspect so.


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## Cleon (Nov 25, 2009)

Shade said:


> Nope. They are 4 HD.  I was just expanding the high end a bit beyond the usual triple HD, instead going quadruple HD.   But I'm fine with going to Huge, so 5-9 HD (Large) and 10-16 HD (Huge)?




Of course, I was getting them mixed up with something else.

5-9 HD (Large) and 10-16 HD (Huge) is fine by me.



Shade said:


> How's this?
> 
> Planar Journey (Sp): Once every 111 years, a phantasm may enter the Material Plane. This ability transports the phantasm and any treasure it carries, but cannot transport others. It is otherwise similar to the plane shift spell (caster level 13th).
> 
> At any point within the next year, the phantasm may use plane shift to return to the Ethereal Plane in a similar manner.




Looks OK. I'd have put the caster level at 9th (minimum for the 5th level clerical version of the spell), but it doesn't make any difference.



Shade said:


> CR 3-4?  Is its mark of the phantasm and haste enough to promote it to a higher CR than the equal HD pegasus?





It'd certainly make a difference in my book! Challenge Rating 4.


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## freyar (Nov 26, 2009)

Done, then?


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## Cleon (Nov 26, 2009)

freyar said:


> Done, then?




Yup, I think so.

And since we're on page 53, I'm thinking the current part of this thread is done, too.


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Yup, I think so.
> 
> And since we're on page 53, I'm thinking the current part of this thread is done, too.



Only when Shade gets here to lock it.  We can party in this thread till Monday, probably.


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## Cleon (Nov 27, 2009)

freyar said:


> Only when Shade gets here to lock it.  We can party in this thread till Monday, probably.




Sounds good to me!

I'll bring the virtual beer if you'll supply the virtual vittals, please include an excessively chocolately virtual cake.

Hmm... beer and chocolate.

Now, I wonder how much celebrating we'd need to do to crash the party... or the thread?

Maybe it's not such a good idea, after all.


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2009)

I've already got the chocolate, though!


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## Echohawk (Nov 27, 2009)

Mmmmmmmm.... chocolate...


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## freyar (Nov 27, 2009)

You know, since Shade is off celebrating US Thanksgiving, we should really have some apple pie here.  That would be appropriate.


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## Echohawk (Nov 27, 2009)

Mmmmmmm... apple pie with chocolate sauce...


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## Cleon (Nov 29, 2009)

Echohawk said:


> Mmmmmmm... apple pie with chocolate sauce...




Well I think vanilla ice cream goes better with apple pie, so you can pour that chocolate sauce over a fat slice of devil's food cake instead.

Ymmmmm... devil's food cake.


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## freyar (Nov 30, 2009)

I hope Shade gets here soon, or I'm going to gain weight.


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## Shade (Nov 30, 2009)

Alright, party's over!

You there...drop the chocolate-covered apple pie.  Same goes for you with the devil's food.  You can leave the e-keg behind.


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## Cleon (Dec 1, 2009)

Shade said:


> Alright, party's over!
> 
> You there...drop the chocolate-covered apple pie.  Same goes for you with the devil's food.  You can leave the e-keg behind.




Fine by me Shade, the keg's already empty. Thanks for tidying it up after us though.

Cleon cackles maniacally while fleeing the thread, staggering drunkenly from side-to-side, getting halfway down the street before realizing he left half a Devil's Food Cake behind.


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## Echohawk (Dec 4, 2009)

Cleon said:


> Cleon cackles maniacally while fleeing the thread, staggering drunkenly from side-to-side, getting halfway down the street before realizing he left half a Devil's Food Cake behind.




Munch... gobble... chomp... <looks up>

Um... er... what half a devil's food cake was that?


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## Shade (Dec 4, 2009)

Mmmm....devil's food...you can really taste the mortal soul in each bite!


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## Shade (Jan 7, 2010)

*Sleepwalkers*
These dangerous golems are the creation of Homayoun Bey, the ruler of this chapter of the Brotherhood.  They appear to be humans with glowing red eyes, wearing red caftans and pantaloons and wielding saw-edged scimitars.  The golems were named Sleepwalkers by the peasants of the Valley of the Mist because of their slow, shambling golem-strides and their tendency to bump into things and knock furniture over.  Though Homayoun wanted to name them Flame Sentinels, the peasants’ name stuck.

Sleepwalkers are essentially minor flesh golems with a few alterations.  Each has flaming oil as its blood, which gives the creature a slightly luminescent, orangish skin tone.  If slain, the golem bursts into flame and disintegrates, but this does not harm bystanders unless someone is directly touching the golem when it is destroyed.  In this case, the victim suffers 2d8 hp damage, with a save vs. spell for half damage.  Though skinny, a Sleepwalker is incredibly strong, equivalent to a Strength of 19.  Each golem bears a saw-edged scimitar which it uses in battle, causing 1d8+1 hp damage plus its Strength bonus of +7.  While the jagged edges on the sword give it an additional point of damage, it weakens the blade and any attack roll of 1 indicates the sword has shattered.  If disarmed, a Sleepwalker may punch once per round for 1d2+7 points of damage.

If the Sleepwalker has a weakness, it is its stupidity.  Complex instructions are inevitabley bungled, for the golems may be trusted with only the simplest and most repetitive of taks.  The Sleepwalker has the usual vulnerability to lightning and is not healed as normal flesh golems are.  However, because of their fiery blood, they are resistant to fire, receiving a +4 bonus to flame-based saves, with damage reduced by four points per die, to a minimum of 0 points per die.

Sleepwalkers:  Int semi-; AL N; AC 5; MV 9; HD 7; hp 49 each; THAC0 14; #AT 1; Dmg 1d8+8; SA Strength equivalent to 19; SD immune to mind-affecting spells, fire resistance; ML 20; XP 1,400.

Originally appeared in Dungeon Magazine #63 (1997).


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## freyar (Jan 8, 2010)

Interesting, but should we put these in a new thread before commenting on them?


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## demiurge1138 (Jan 8, 2010)

Good idea. We're over the cap.


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## Shade (Jan 11, 2010)

Thread closed due to exceeding 1,000 posts.

See continuation here.


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