# Complete Adventurer (merged)



## Gez (Jan 7, 2005)

*Complete Adventurer -- Anyone got it yet?*

It's supposed to be out on the shelves today.

I want to know about the Daggerspell Adept PrC for druid/rogue multiclassed characters; and any other listing of stuff is welcome.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jan 7, 2005)

I'm going to head down to the FLGS either later today or tommorrow to see if they've got it...they got Races of Destiny on the release date so hopefully they'll have CAdv


----------



## dravot (Jan 7, 2005)

Amazon says that it won't be released for another couple of weeks, and the WotC site only says 'January 2005'.  Argh.

Anyone know if the new Eberron module has been released yet?


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

My FLGS has received it. I just might go over ther RIGHT NOW because I have nothing better to do...

AR


----------



## Psion (Jan 7, 2005)

Got it. Thanks for the reminder.

It's a very nice book. I think I am going to like this best of the series. More of the stuff is fresh than easier books. It has an organization not unlike FFG's path books, with prestige classes up front, organizations in the back, and a variety of variants and options stuffed in the middle.

Glad to see psionics support (yay!). The shadowmind here isn't the one from the Mind's Eye... it's a psion/rogue combo. Neat, though. I'd use it in a heartbeat.

They did continued spell advancement right, always costing you at least one casting level. Yay!

Daggerspell stuff for Gez... there are two daggerspell classes, daggerspell mage (rog/sor or wiz) and daggerspell shaper (rog/druid). Can cast spells with daggers in their hand, and learn related abilities as they advance levels. Example, the dagger claws ability of the daggerspell shaper lets them use properties of the daggers on claws in their wildshape form... but you knew that was coming, right?

Still has the problem with the NPCs. Love the NPC samples, find repeating descriptions from the previous page a waste of space...


----------



## Arcane Runes Press (Jan 7, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Daggerspell stuff for Gez... there are two daggerspell classes, daggerspell mage (rog/sor or wiz) and daggerspell shaper (rog/druid). Can cast spells with daggers in their hand, and learn related abilities as they advance levels. Example, the dagger claws ability of the daggerspell shaper lets them use properties of the daggers on claws in their wildshape form... but you knew that was coming, right?




Something about these two PrCs strikes me as, well I guess overly obscure would be the word for it. Maybe overly focused too. The daggerspell mage I can see, as daggers are weapons commonly associated with rogues, and to a lesser extent, with mages (particularly in older additions), but the daggerspell shaper seems like a really bizarro choice for a PrC.

I don't imagine there are all that many rogue/druids to begin with, and I don't see many of them focusing their skills on daggers. Just seems like it takes a fairly rare multiclass, and then drops a second level of rarity right on top of it. 


Glad to see psionic stuff. That's always welcome. 

How are the "singing paladin" type feats? Are there are a good number of them? 

And is the bard still the redheaded step child of class support?


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

I have the book.

I'll start another thread.

AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

*Answering questions about Complete Adventurer*

Hello and welcome to Altamont's "I-have-nothing-better-to-do-on-my-last-day-of-vacation" thread. I'll gladly answer any and all questions about Complete Adventurer for the next... say... 3 hours.

I'll post the table of contents in a jiffy.

AR


----------



## Thanee (Jan 7, 2005)

Did you like CW?
Did you like CD?
Did you like CA?

Do you like CAdv? 

Bye
Thanee


----------



## Alaxk Knight of Galt (Jan 7, 2005)

Can you describe in greater detail the Scout and the Spelltheif.  BAB, Saves, Skill points, and an overview of their special abilities.

Thanks


----------



## Psion (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> I have the book.
> 
> I'll start another thread.




Why? It'll probably get rolled in with this one anyways.


----------



## Psion (Jan 7, 2005)

Arcane Runes Press said:
			
		

> Something about these two PrCs strikes me as, well I guess overly obscure would be the word for it. Maybe overly focused too. The daggerspell mage I can see, as daggers are weapons commonly associated with rogues, and to a lesser extent, with mages (particularly in older additions), but the daggerspell shaper seems like a really bizarro choice for a PrC.




I thought that "schtick" was what prestige classes are all about (start talking about core classes, then "overly focussed" enters my vocabulary.)



> How are the "singing paladin" type feats? Are there are a good number of them?




Probably about half of the general feats are of this sort. (Not all bardic; for example, the ascetic feats are for monk multiclasses.)



> And is the bard still the redheaded step child of class support?




That would be psion. 

Um, well, they get some new feats here and two of the new classes are good or specifically for bards, along with the return of the virtuoso and spymaster. That said, I have never been happy with any bard treatment since FFG's _Path of Magic_.


----------



## Psion (Jan 7, 2005)

Probably best to put this with the thread Gez started.


----------



## Sammael (Jan 7, 2005)

Is Expert Tactician in the book?


----------



## Yig (Jan 7, 2005)

Where did you buy it ?

I went to the Valet and one of the Donjon this morning but they both haven't received it yet.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Introduction
- everyone has skill
-- what's inside
-- what you need to play

Chapter 1: Classes
- Ninja
-- Game rule information
-- Human ninja starting package
- Scout
-- Game rule information
-- half-elf scout starting package
- Spellthief
-- Game rule information
--Halfling spellthief starting package

Chapter 2: Prestige classes
- Picking a prestige class
- Animal lord (chose an animal, receive related bonuses, wild aspect)
- Beastmaster (animal companions galore)
- Bloodhound (tracker+bounty hunter)
- Daggerspell mage (spellcasting progression, sneak attack, dagger casting/magic)
- Daggerspell shaper (same + wild shape)
- Dread pirate (arr me mateys)
- Dungeon delver (trap sense, blind sense, augury, escape artist, etc.)
- Exemplar (super duper expert in 1 skill)
- Fochlucan Lyrist (bard/divine class "mystic theurge")
- ghost-faced killer (appear / attack / disappear, fear effects)
- highland stalker (mountain hunters)
- Maester (gnomish techno-mage)
- Master of many forms (shaper?)
- Nightsong enforcer (stealthy fighter/assassin)
- Nightsong infiltrator (thief/spy)
- Ollam (dwarven bard/teacher)
- Shadowbane inquisitor (Strike Force vs. evil)
- Shadowbane stalker (rogue/cleric)
- Shadowmind (mmmm... Mysk... rogue/psionic)
- Spymaster (7 levels. Cover identities)
- Streetfighter (rogue/fighter, bonus to init, "shake off" damage")
- Tempest (two-weapon maniac)
- Thief-acrobat (as seen on WotC)
- Vigilante (urban, non-evil, stealthy paladin)
- Virtuoso (Jimi Hendrix)
- Wild plains outrider (3 levels. mount, favored enemy = goblins, mounted combat)

Chapter 3: skills and feats
- Skills
-- Combining skills attempts
- Expanded skill descriptions
-- Appraise
-- Balance
-- Climb
-- Craft
-- Decipher script
-- Diplomacy
-- Disable device
-- Escape artist
-- Forgery
-- Handle animal
-- Heal
-- Hide
-- Open lock
-- Sense motive
-- Survival
-- Swim
-- Tumble
-- Use rope
- Feats (aargh! the list!)
-- Appraise magic value
-- Ascetic hunter
-- Ascetic knight
-- ascetic mage
-- ascetic rogue
-- brachiation
-- brutal throw
-- combat intuition
-- danger sense
-- death blow
-- deft opportunist
-- deft strike
-- devoted inquisitor
-- devoted performer
-- devoted tracker
-- disguise spell
-- dive for cover
-- dual strike
-- expert tactician
-- extra music
-- extraordinary concentration
-- extraordinary spell aim
-- force of personnality
-- goad
-- green ear
-- hear the unseen
-- improved diversion
-- improved flight
-- improved swimming
-- insightful reflexes
-- jack of all trades
-- leap attack
-- linguering song
-- mobile spellcasting
-- natural bond
-- obscure lore
-- open minded
-- oversized two-weapon fighting
-- power throw
-- quick reconnoiter
-- razing strike
-- staggering strike
-- subsonics
-- tactile trapsmith
-- versatile performer
- bardic music feats
-- chant of fortitude
-- ironskin chant
-- lyric spell
- Wild feats
-- blindsense
-- Climb like an Ape
-- Cougar's vision
-- Hawk's vision
-- Savage grapple
-- scent

Chapter 4: tools and equipment
- new weapons
- equipment
- magic items

Chapter 5: spells
- swift actions and immediate actions
- new assassin spells
- new bard spells
- new cleric spells
- new druid spells
- new paladin spells
- new ranger spells
- new sorcerer/wizard spells
- new spells

Chapter 6: organizations
-- organization mae
-- blacklock loreseekers
-- the bloodhounds
-- college of concrescent lore
-- daggerspell guardians
-- dragonblade ninja clan
-- eyes of the overking
-- grayhaunt investigators
-- league of boot and trail
-- nightsong guild
-- order of illumination
-- shadowmind guild
-- talespinners league
- building an organization
-- step 1: type
-- step 2: alignment
-- step 3: size
-- step 4: population and resources
-- step 5: demographics
-- step 6: flesh out the details
- appendix: the epic adventurer
-- becoming an epic level adventurer
-- epic-level  prestige class characters
-- sample prestige class epic progression
--- dungeon delver
-- epic feats

Sidebars:
- sudden strike and sneak attack
- spellthieves and psionics
- the pirate code ("it's more a list of guidelines...")
- fochlucan bandore
- the fochlucan college
- trick capacity
- exotic weapons from Complete warrior
- Using the hexblade with Complete adventurer
- Emphasizing an Organization within a campaign
- Adventurers and the League
- Option: create an organizational statistics block
- behind the curtain: epic levels and prestige classes

(whew!)


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanee said:
			
		

> Did you like CW?
> Did you like CD?
> Did you like CA?
> 
> ...



 Yes
Yes
Yes
I probably will


----------



## Darkness (Jan 7, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Why? It'll probably get rolled in with this one anyways.



 That's how I see it as well. Merged.


----------



## Psion (Jan 7, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> Is Expert Tactician in the book?




Yup, but different from the original. If you hit a creture with an AoO, you and all your allies get +2 circumstance bonus to attack and damage against it for 1 round.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Alaxk Knight of Galt said:
			
		

> Can you describe in greater detail the Scout and the Spelltheif.  BAB, Saves, Skill points, and an overview of their special abilities.
> 
> Thanks



 Ninja is basically the same that was published in Dragon a couple of months back

Scout: d8/8 skill points/med BAB/good reflex saves
Overview of abilities:
skirmish: extra damage with ranged attacks if scout moves more than 10 feet during the round.
trapfinding
uncanny dodge
evasion
bonus feats dealing with movement
camouflage
blindsense
fast movement
other movement related abilities.

Looks like a very cool class at first glance

Spellthief: d6/6 skill points/med BAB/good will saves
Overview of abilities:
sneak attack (up to 5d6)
steal spell (can have as many stolen spell levels as class levels) if you forego 1d6 of sneak attack damage.
steal pretty much any magical effect or protection (resistance, SR, etc.) eventually
Spell list: can cast up to 4th level spells (like paladin/ranger/hexblade)


----------



## Sammael (Jan 7, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Yup, but different from the original. If you hit a creture with an AoO, you and all your allies get +2 circumstance bonus to attack and damage against it for 1 round.



Argh! I hate it when they completely change a feat! I am sticking with my house-ruled version.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Yig said:
			
		

> Where did you buy it ?
> 
> I went to the Valet and one of the Donjon this morning but they both haven't received it yet.



 Valet. They got it in the afternoon.

AR


----------



## Yig (Jan 7, 2005)

Any PrC that would be good for a rogue/fighter/swahbuckler that use a rapier and a lot of Improved Feint ?


----------



## Mercule (Jan 7, 2005)

My question:

How does scout differ from ranger and/or rogue?  What niche does it fill or what archetype does it represent?


----------



## Psion (Jan 7, 2005)

Hmmm... Dual Strike... has this one been published before? Lets you strike with two weapons as a standard action and a -4 penalty. I know some players who will like that. And they will all have spring attack...


----------



## Yig (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> Valet. They got it in the afternoon.
> 
> AR




Ok thanks.

Guess I'll have to go back then.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Mercule said:
			
		

> My question:
> 
> How does scout differ from ranger and/or rogue?  What niche does it fill or what archetype does it represent?



 The Scout is basically a Wilderness rogue, focused on archery and moving through the wilderness. It doesn't have much to do with the Ranger, except for using bows and frolicking in nature.

They look like an elite force of ranged attackers...

AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Yig said:
			
		

> Any PrC that would be good for a rogue/fighter/swahbuckler that use a rapier and a lot of Improved Feint ?



 I haven't read through all the descriptions in detail, but, at first glance, the following might apply:

Exemplar: Uber-specialist in 1 skill.
Spymaster maybe
Streetfighter (as Improved feint is a required feat)
Thief-acrobat, maybe

That's about it.

AR


----------



## Sammael (Jan 7, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Hmmm... Dual Strike... has this one been published before? Lets you strike with two weapons as a standard action and a -4 penalty. I know some players who will like that. And they will all have spring attack...



Obviously one of the designers had the time to read my House Rules document before it was pulled from these boards for OGL noncompliance... because I've made a feat with the exact same name and exact same benefit.  

What are the prerequisites?


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> Obviously one of the designers had the time to read my House Rules document before it was pulled from these boards for OGL noncompliance... because I've made a feat with the exact same name and exact same benefit.
> 
> What are the prerequisites?



 two-weapon fighting, improved two-weapon fighting

AR


----------



## Prism (Jan 7, 2005)

Could you tell me how the Animal Lord class has changed. It used to require two feats - animal defiance and animal control - as prereqs but both of these are missing as they are pretty much covered by the wild empathy ability nowadays

Also, does the class still allow multiple animal companions

Thanks in advance


----------



## Trainz (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> Valet. They got it in the afternoon.
> 
> AR




AH !

I'm out the door RIGHT NOW to go get two of 'em (one for me, one for Jérôme) !


----------



## the Jester (Jan 7, 2005)

Is the new version of the tempest any good?


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Great. I put a short description next to the prestige classes, and they're not there... And the boards are really slow...


----------



## Greydt (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> skirmish: extra damage with ranged attacks if scout moves more than 10 feet during the round.





Altamont - Extra damage isn't just limited to ranged attacks, since it specifically says "all" attacks. The Ranged aspect is the same limitation of sneak attack where if the skirmish attack is a ranged one, you have to be within 30' for it to take effect.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Prism said:
			
		

> Could you tell me how the Animal Lord class has changed. It used to require two feats - animal defiance and animal control - as prereqs but both of these are missing as they are pretty much covered by the wild empathy ability nowadays
> 
> Also, does the class still allow multiple animal companions
> 
> Thanks in advance



 The animal lord's prerequisites is simply:
BAB +5
handle animal 4 ranks
knowledge nature 2 ranks
4 ranks in another skill (varies with "totem")
1 feat (varies with "totem")

As for the changes...

BAB is now full (as fighter)
No spells
1) Animal sense replaced with Detect animals and Wild empathy
2) first totem, low-light vision
3) wild aspect (small transformation)
4) speak with animals
5) summon animal
7) animal growth
8) animal telepathy

merged with additional uses of Wild Aspect, and 2 more totems by level 10.

AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

the Jester said:
			
		

> Is the new version of the tempest any good?



 It's a 5-level class now.

AC bonus while fighting with 2 weapons
reduced penalties for fighting with 2 weapons
2-weapon spring attack
2-weapon versatility: if you have weapon focus/spec on your primary weapon, and your secondary weapon is different from your primary, you can apply these feats to your secondary weapon even if you don't have them.

AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Greydt said:
			
		

> Altamont - Extra damage isn't just limited to ranged attacks, since it specifically says "all" attacks. The Ranged aspect is the same limitation of sneak attack where if the skirmish attack is a ranged one, you have to be within 30' for it to take effect.



 Entirely true.

Skirmish works with melee and ranged attacks (30' or less). You have to move 10 feet or more (and not more than 10 feet). Every scout will either have Spring attack or Shot on the Run. Multiclass Scout/Arcane casters might even have Mobile Spellcasting 

AR


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 7, 2005)

Well, my new FLGS won't get it for at least 2 weeks, and neither will the local chain store, Hastings.  

..................sigh...................


----------



## Prism (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> 3) wild aspect (small transformation)




Cheers for that Altamont

You couldn't just fill me in on what wild aspect is. I've got a current bear lord character who has been happily tramping around as a brown bear for the last few levels. I've got a feeling I'm about to find out that this new version might not be so easy to transpose


----------



## Pbartender (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> You have to move 10 feet or more (and not more than 10 feet).




:\  So, in other words, you have to move exactly 10 feet to get the bonus damage?


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Prism said:
			
		

> Cheers for that Altamont
> 
> You couldn't just fill me in on what wild aspect is. I've got a current bear lord character who has been happily tramping around as a brown bear for the last few levels. I've got a feeling I'm about to find out that this new version might not be so easy to transpose



 What I meant by "small transformation" isn't that the power is nearly the same. I meant that instead of Wild Shaping, you get a small animal caracteristic. In your Bearlord case, you'd gain 2 primary claw attacks, and the ability to start a grapple as a free action if a claw hits (1d4 dam, 1d6 @ 7th)


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Pbartender said:
			
		

> :\  So, in other words, you have to move exactly 10 feet to get the bonus damage?



 ARGH!

You need to move at least 10 feet, contrary to what I had posted earlier, which was "you need to move more than 10 feet".



AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Hey, I just spotted a mistake in the book!

In the Sample Highland Stalker description, the NPC in question is a Ranger 5/highland stalker 3, but to enter the Highland Stalker PrC, you need the Skirmish or Sneak attack ability, something the ranger doesn't have!

AR


----------



## Pbartender (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> ARGH!
> 
> You need to move at least 10 feet, contrary to what I had posted earlier, which was "you need to move more than 10 feet".




Gotcha.  That's what I'd thought.  The "move at least 10 feet, but not more than 10 feet" was just a little confusing...  Seemed like a lot of words to say "move 10 feet".


----------



## Trainz (Jan 7, 2005)

Woah... there's some sweet feats in there...

FORCE OF PERSONALITY: Add your Cha mod instead of your Wis mod to will saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities. In effect, a Paladin with 22 Cha would have a +12 on will saves.

INSIGHTFUL REFLEXES: Add your Int mod instead of your Dex mod to reflex saves. Great for Wizards.

STAGGERING STRIKE: When successfully dealing a sneak attack, the target must make a Fort save DC damage dealt from SA (!!!), or be staggered for one round (or until cured). When staggered, you can only make one standar action (great versus critters with a lot of attacks, or metamagicking sorcerors).


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

A quick look at new spells (incomplete list):

Arrow Mind (rng1/sor-wiz1): lets you theaten within 5 feet (and not cause AoO's) with your bow for 1 minute/level.

Arrow Storm (rng4): lets you "whirlwind attack" (within the weapon's range increment) with your bow... (I hope you brought arrows! oh, wait, 1 target/level max)

Blade storm (rng3): same as above, but with melee weapon(s).

Bladeweave (brd2/wiz2): Free additional dazing touch attack after successful hit.

Critical strike (asn1/wiz1): (casting time 1 swift action, duration 1 round) +1d6 sneak attack damage, critical threat doubled, +4 to confirm critical hit if foe is flanked / denied dex bonus)

Distract assailant (asn1/wiz1): a creature affected by this spell is _flat-footed_ until the beginning of his next turn.

Expeditious retreat, swift (brd1/wiz1): lasts one round

Fly, swift (brd2/drd3/wiz2): lasts one round

Golem Strike (wiz1): lets you sneak attack constructs for 1 round

Grave strike (clr1/pal1): as above, vs undead

Guided shot (rng1/wiz1): no range penalties, no cover bonus to AC for 1 round.

Hindsight (brd6/wiz9): recall past events (days/weeks/months/years/centuries)

Master's touch (brd1/wiz1): become proficient with held item for 1 minute/level

Sniper's shot (asn1/rng1/wiz1): no distance limit for sneak attacks for 1 round

AR

Edit: I gotta go wash the dishes... Someone else will certainly fill in for me from now on


----------



## Trainz (Jan 7, 2005)

Woah...

Perusing the Magic Items section, and I fall on this little gem:

Choker of Eloquence (Greater): *+10* on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform (sing) checks. So basically +10 on 3 skills.

Here's the fun part: CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items (NO OTHER PREREQUISITES !), 24,000 g.p..

I see this item, and I automatically think about the Invisible Blade from CW. Ouch.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jan 7, 2005)

I've got a question: Can someone give the details on the Blindsight and Blindsense feats? What are the differences, prereqs, etc.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

aHA! I'm back! Dishes are done, just waiting for a call to go see Sideways.

Something I don't like: the new weapons. Basically, they're exotic versions of martial or simple weapons, and they are treated like their non-exotic counterparts, and they give you bonuses if you meet certain prerequisites.

An example: The longstaff. If you are proficient with a longstaff and fight defensively, you cannot be flanked during that round. You can also obtain the same result if you use Combat expertise for at least 2 points of AC. Also (this applies all the time), every weapon feat you have that concerns the quarterstaff (weapon focus, improved critical, etc.) also applies to the longstaff.

Notes on the Expanded Skill list:

Appraise: You can identify faster (but with less chance of success) when you do not have much time.

Balance: You may make a balance check (at -10) instead of a STR or DEX check to avoid being tripped.

Climb: move at full speed by taking a -20 to your check

Craft: Quick Creation (as in the Epic handbook), Poisonmaking DC's.

Diplomacy: Haggle, Mediate

Forgery: make false documents to help with Bluff, Diplomacy or Intimidate checks.

Handle animal: new tricks

Heal: Determine cause of death DC's (watch out for CSI: Undermountain)

Hide: Blend into a crowd, Move between cover, Tail someone

Sense Motive: Assess opponent

Survival: Trailblazing (move faster in environments that reduce your overland speed, up to your normal speed)

Tumble: Free Stand (DC 35, causes AoO), Ignore falling damage, Sprinting tumble.

AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I've got a question: Can someone give the details on the Blindsight and Blindsense feats? What are the differences, prereqs, etc.



 The Blindsense feat is a Wild Feat. Prereqs: Wild shape, listen 4 ranks, lets you use a daily use of wildshape to gain blindsense for 1 minute per HD.

AR


----------



## Sammael (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> An example: The longstaff. If you are proficient with a longstaff and fight defensively, you cannot be flanked during that round. You can also obtain the same result if you use Combat expertise for at least 2 points of AC. Also (this applies all the time), every weapon feat you have that concerns the quarterstaff (weapon focus, improved critical, etc.) also applies to the longstaff.



Actually, I like this, and it fits my house rules perfectly (I use weapon groups, and Exotic Weapon Proficiency gives you proficiency with all exotic weapons from all groups you are already proficient with... ditto for Weapon Focus, Specialization, Improved Critical, etc).



> Appraise: You can identify faster (but with less chance of success) when you do not have much time.



Makes sense.



> Balance: You may make a balance check (at -10) instead of a STR or DEX check to avoid being tripped.



IMC, 5 ranks in Balance give a +2 synergy bonus against being tripped or bull rushed.



> Heal: Determine cause of death DC's (watch out for CSI: Undermountain)







> Tumble: Free Stand (DC 35, causes AoO), Ignore falling damage, Sprinting tumble.



IIRC, free stand is also from the ELH and it didn't provoke an AoO. Of course, that was 3.0.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Woah...
> 
> Perusing the Magic Items section, and I fall on this little gem:
> 
> ...



 Yes, but the IB's opponent will certainly carry a Focused Shield (+1 equivalent, +10 to sense motive checks vs. feint) 

AR


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 7, 2005)

Poor Altamont! I almost feel bad for asking, seeing how busy we're keeping you, but...can you see any major revision to the Dread Pirate PrC? I've got a PC whose been playing one of those for two years now and I'm hoping it'll finally pay off for him. *laughs* I'd appreciate anything you could tell me. Thanks in advance!


----------



## Dimwhit (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> The Blindsense feat is a Wild Feat. Prereqs: Wild shape, listen 4 ranks, lets you use a daily use of wildshape to gain blindsense for 1 minute per HD.
> 
> AR



 Thanks. How about Blindsight? The ENWorld main page listed that as a feat, too.


----------



## Darkness (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> Hey, I just spotted a mistake in the book!
> 
> In the Sample Highland Stalker description, the NPC in question is a Ranger 5/highland stalker 3, but to enter the Highland Stalker PrC, you need the Skirmish or Sneak attack ability, something the ranger doesn't have!



 Par for course. Sample characters very, very often have mistakes.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Poor Altamont! I almost feel bad for asking, seeing how busy we're keeping you, but...can you see any major revision to the Dread Pirate PrC? I've got a PC whose been playing one of those for two years now and I'm hoping it'll finally pay off for him. *laughs* I'd appreciate anything you could tell me. Thanks in advance!




Don't feel bad, I volunteered! 

For the Dread Pirate, the prereqs are essentially the same.

As for the benefits (different from the original PrC)...

1) Seamanship (bonus to Profession (sailor) checks)
3) Rally the crew (+1 to attack and damage, 1/day; if honorable) or Sneak attack (+1d6;if dishonorable)
4) (instead of the old abilities) Acrobatic charge, steady stance (not flat-footed whil climbing or balancing, +4 bonus to these skills)
5) (instead) Luck of the wind (re-roll 1 roll; hon.) or Scourge of the Seas (better Demoralize foes)
6) no "come about", fearsome reputation +4
7) (instead) rally the crew (+2, 2/day) or Sneak attack +2d6
8) (instead) Skill mastery
9) (instead) Fight to the death (temp hp and AC bonus to allies; hon.) or Motivate the scum (lol) (kill a guy, allies gain damage bonuses; dishon.)
10) Fearsome reputation +6, pirate king (gain followers as Leadership feat (no cohorts, though)

(when I say "instead", I mean, instead of the 3.0 Dread Pirate abilities)

Looks like a partial re-haul of the abilities. They look like fun abilities to me.

Hope this helps!

AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Thanks. How about Blindsight? The ENWorld main page listed that as a feat, too.



 It's not in the Table of Contents, so, no Blindsight feat...

AR

Edit: the main page also forgot to list "Extra Music" as a feat in CA, as well as "Oversized Tw-Weapon Fighting"... They list "Daggerspell Adept" and "Daggerspell Invoker", but the real PrC names are "Daggerspell Mage" and "Daggerspell Shaper". There is no "Wild Shifter", but there is the "Master of Many Forms".


----------



## Gez (Jan 7, 2005)

Thanks for the replies and the TOC. 
Can someone list the prerequisites for the Daggerspell Shaper? BAB, saves, and spellcasting progression? Rate of increasing in sneak attack and wildshape? Number of skill points? Skill list?


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 7, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> Don't feel bad, I volunteered!
> 
> Looks like a partial re-haul of the abilities. They look like fun abilities to me.
> 
> ...




Helped a great deal! A definite improvement over the 3.0 version. I'm sure my PC will be thrilled. Thanks again!


----------



## Aaron2 (Jan 7, 2005)

Quick questions:

What's it say about Hide and Move Silently? Any new DCs?

Also, any expanded info about concealment or lighting effects? 


Just curious.


Aaron


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies and the TOC.
> Can someone list the prerequisites for the Daggerspell Shaper? BAB, saves, and spellcasting progression? Rate of increasing in sneak attack and wildshape? Number of skill points? Skill list?



 Mais bien sûr!

Non evil
Concentration 8 ranks
WF (dagger), two weapon fighting
Wild shape class feature
sneak attack +1d6 or skrimish +1d6

Class skill list
balance, climb, concentration, craft, handle animal, heal, hide, jump, knowledge (nature), listen, move silently, profession, ride, spellcraft, spot, survival, swim, tumble
6 skill points

Medium BAB, good Ref and Will saves. 

By 10th level, you'll get +3d6 sneak attack damage. +9 levels of existing divine spellcasting class, wild shape (tiny, large), +3 wild shapes per day, fast wildshape, enchanced wildshape (keep equipment active while wild shaped).

AR


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 7, 2005)

Aaron2 said:
			
		

> Quick questions:
> 
> What's it say about Hide and Move Silently? Any new DCs?
> 
> ...



 No new DC's. For hide, you learn that you can use the Hide skill to Blend into a crowd, move between cover (hide check, -5 per 5 feet moved), sneak up on someone (-5 per 5 feet moved), Tail someone (vs. opponent's Sense motive check)

Nothing I can see about lighting conditions (or concealment)...

AR


----------



## Gez (Jan 7, 2005)

Danke schön! 

OK... I'll need four more levels of druid and those two feats...


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 8, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> Danke schön!
> 
> OK... I'll need four more levels of druid and those two feats...



 de nada!


----------



## Origami_Master (Jan 8, 2005)

I literally signed up just to know about this book...

Anyway, could you tell me about the scout a little more if you don't mind?  In particular, I'm interested about the skirmish damage bonus.


----------



## eris404 (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Woah...
> 
> Perusing the Magic Items section, and I fall on this little gem:
> 
> ...




Hey, that was published in another book - my bard in the FR campaign I play in has one. I'm guessing it must have been either the Arms and Equipment book or Magic of Faerun. I don't have either handy, but I don't think any changes were made to it. Sometimes when they do that it makes me a little grumpy.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 8, 2005)

Origami_Master said:
			
		

> I literally signed up just to know about this book...
> 
> Anyway, could you tell me about the scout a little more if you don't mind?  In particular, I'm interested about the skirmish damage bonus.



 Welcome to the boards!

The skirmish is extra damage that is only applied if the scout moves at least 10 feet before the attack, on his round. 

The scout's skill list is basically Rogue + Ranger, as far as I can tell.

His general abilities are geared towards movement, saying hidden and keeping a visual on their targets (fast movement, flawless stride, camouflage, blindsense, blindsight, hide in plain sight, free movement)

I have to go now, but other people will probably fill you in on the specifics if you want.

AR


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 8, 2005)

The Ollam looks a litte familiar... Can it be? Yup. Its the exact same artwork as the battlesmith in Races of Stone! 

Maybe she has levels in both?

Didja also notice the sample Highland Stalker is a GOLIATH? Nice touch!

I'm diggin this book so far, but I like rogues and rogue-like characters, so...


----------



## Knight Otu (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> FORCE OF PERSONALITY: Add your Cha mod instead of your Wis mod to will saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities. In effect, a Paladin with 22 Cha would have a +12 on will saves.




 Not sure if it would stack (not that I have the book yet) - in effect that paladin would have two Cha bonuses to his Will save, and I think that might fall under "bonus of the same name."

 How does the feat Appraise Magic Value work? What epic feats are in the book?


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 8, 2005)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Not sure if it would stack (not that I have the book yet) - in effect that paladin would have two Cha bonuses to his Will save, and I think that might fall under "bonus of the same name."
> 
> How does the feat Appraise Magic Value work? What epic feats are in the book?




"If you know that an item is magical, you can use the appraise skill to identify the item's properties. This use of the appraise skill requires 8 hours of uninterrupted work and consumes 25gp worth of special materials. DC 10 + item caster level"

Epic feats:

Augmented alchemy
Epic dodge
Epic reputation
Epic skill focus
Group inspiration
Improved skirmish
Improved sudden strike
Legendary acrobat
Legendary climber
Legendary leaper
Legendary tracker (lol track in the air, DC 120!)
Polyglot

AR


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Jan 8, 2005)

Knight Otu said:
			
		

> Not sure if it would stack (not that I have the book yet) - in effect that paladin would have two Cha bonuses to his Will save, and I think that might fall under "bonus of the same name."




Unlikely; Divine Grace is an untyped bonus, so it will stack with anything, even another untyped bonus.

Brad (who really wishes he was able to get out today and get the bloody book)


----------



## Nightfall (Jan 8, 2005)

Any chance we could get a spell list for clerics and druids?

Paladins?

No new domains then?


----------



## Greylock (Jan 8, 2005)

Argghh! The PrC's! they burn my eyes!

I rushed to work early, just to take a peak at the book on my way. I had a sneaking suspicion that the Windrider HAD to make an appearance in this book, since the CW completely ignored it. And guess what? It's there!

The Wild plains outrider, hurrah! A completely nerfed favorite of the 3.0 splats, completely transmogrified from a Fighter/Ranger/Paladin all-around warrior PrC, into  pathetically useless Bard PrC (if the Bard was wise enough to cherrypick a level of Ranger).  

Bah.

Maybe on the third or fourth browse-through the skills will catch me, but the nerfing of the WindRider was completely unjust.


----------



## Greylock (Jan 8, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Any chance we could get a spell list for clerics and druids?
> 
> Paladins?
> 
> No new domains then?




I recall there were a few first and second Cleric spells. Several Druid related shifting things were around. Didn't read that close.


----------



## Caliban (Jan 8, 2005)

Scout synergizes very well with the Dervish prestige class from Complete Warrior.   The Dervishes main ability let's you get a full attack sequence in while moving up to your speed.  Combine that with Two weapon fighting, and you can really make use of the Skirmish ability from scout.  Scout 7 gives you +2d6 damage and +2 AC when moving more than 5 feet, not to mention  Flawless Stride (ignore penalties from difficult terrain), Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, +10 speed, Trackless Step, and a bonus feat.    

A Scout 7/Dervish 3 would seem to be pretty potent.


----------



## Altamont Ravenard (Jan 8, 2005)

Nightfall said:
			
		

> Any chance we could get a spell list for clerics and druids?
> 
> Paladins?
> 
> No new domains then?



 Cleric spells
1
grave strike
2
Divine insight (bonus to 1 skill check)
Healing lorecall (use Heal check and healing spells together for more effects)
Iron silence (remove ACP for Hide / MS)

Druid spells
1
Hawkeye (range increments + 50%, spot bonus)
healthful rest (heal faster)
Vine strike (sneak attack plants)
2
Balancing lorecall (better at Balance)
branch to branch (brachiation + bonus to climb skill)
daggerspell stance (varied effects)
Easy trail (makes a trail)
Embrace the wild (gain animal senses)
Healing lorecall
Listening lorecall
Nature's favor (divine favor for animals)
Train animal
Wracking touch (damaging touch attack)
3
entangling staff (staff can entangle, constrict)
Fly, swift
4
forestfold (bonus to hide/ms in terrain)
5
cloak of the sea (bonus under water)

paladin
1
grave strike
2
divine insight

AR


----------



## SoulStorm (Jan 8, 2005)

The Shifter was a favorite.  I'd really appreciate some info. on the Master of Many Forms.

Thanks


----------



## BradfordFerguson (Jan 8, 2005)

Who cares?  ...and why put a list of all this junk on the front page?

    Feats from the Complete Adventurer

        * Appraise Magic Value
        * Ascetic Hunter
        * Ascetic Knight
        * Ascetic Mage
        * Ascetic Rogue
        * Blindsense
        * Blindsight
        * Brachiation
        * Brutal Throw
        * Chant of Fortitude
        * Climb Like an Ape
        * Combat Intuition
        * Cougar's Vision
        * Danger Sense
        * Death Blow
        * Deft Opportunist
        * Deft Strike
        * Devoted Inquisitor
        * Devoted Performer
        * Devoted Tracker
        * Disguise Spell
        * Dive For Cover
        * Dual Strike
        * Expert Tactician
        * Extraordinary Concentration
        * Extraordinary Spell Aim
        * Force of Personality
        * Goad
        * Green Ear
        * Hawk's Vision
        * Hear the Unseen
        * Improved Diversion
        * Improved Flight
        * Improved Swimming
        * Insightful Reflexes
        * Ironskin Chant
        * Jack of all Trades
        * Leap Attack (replaces Mantis Leap in S&F)
        * Lingering Song
        * Lyric Spell
        * Mobile Spellcaster
        * Natural Bond
        * Obscure Lore
        * Open Minded
        * Power Throw
        * Quick Reconnoiter
        * Razing Strike
        * Savage Grapple
        * Scent
        * Staggering Strike
        * Subsonics
        * Tactile Trapsmith
        * Versitile Performer 

    Spells from the Complete Adventurer

        * Absorb Weapon
        * Accelerated Movement
        * Allegro
        * Arrow Mind
        * Arrow Storm
        * Balancing Lorecall
        * Blade Storm
        * Bladeweave (replaces Bladesong)
        * Bloodhound
        * Branch to Branch
        * Cacophonic Shield
        * Cloak of the Sea
        * Critical Strike
        * Daggerspell Stance
        * Dirge of Discord
        * Dissonant Chord
        * Distort Speech
        * Distracting Assailant
        * Divine Insight
        * Easy Climb
        * Easy Trail
        * Embrace the Wild
        * Entangling Staff
        * Exacting Shot
        * Fly Swift
        * Expeditiout Retreat, Swift
        * Focusing Chant
        * Foebane
        * Golem Strike
        * Grave Strike
        * Guided Shot [Replaces Guided Arrows (S&S)]
        * Harmonic Choruse
        * Haste, Swift
        * Healing Lorecall
        * Healthful Rest [Replaces Healthful Slumber (S&S)]
        * Herald's Call
        * Hindsight
        * Hymn of Praise
        * Improvisation
        * Infernal Threndony
        * Insidious Rythmn
        * Insightful Feint
        * Inspirational Boost
        * Instant Locksmith
        * Instant Search
        * Iron Silence
        * Invisibility, Swift
        * Joyful Noise
        * Listening Coin
        * Listening Lorecall
        * Master's Touch
        * Mindless Range
        * Nightstalker's Transformation
        * Shadow Form
        * Sniper's Shot
        * Sonic Weapon
        * Spectral Weapon
        * Speechlink
        * Tactical Precision
        * Train Animal
        * Vine Strike
        * Wail of Doom
        * Warcry
        * Wracking Touch
        * Wraithstrike 

    New Base Classes from the Complete Adventurer

        * Ninja
        * Scout
        * Spellthief 

    Prestige Classes from the Complete Adventurer

        * Animal Lord
        * Beastmaster [Replaces Tamer of Beasts]
        * Bloodhound
        * Daggerspell Adept
        * Daggerspell Invoker
        * Dread Pirate [At 2nd level you can choose the path of an honorable pirate]
        * Dungeon Delver
        * Exemplar
        * Fochlucan Lyrist
        * Ghost-Faced Killer
        * Highland Stalker
        * Maester
        * Nightsong Enforcer
        * Nightsong Infiltrator
        * Ollam
        * Shadowbane Inquisitor
        * Shadowbane Stalker
        * Shadowmind
        * Spymaster
        * Streetfighter
        * Tempest
        * Thief-Acrobat
        * Vigilante
        * Virtuoso
        * Wild Plains Outrider
        * Wild Shifter [Replaces Shifter]


----------



## FireLance (Jan 8, 2005)

WotC has put up excepts from Complete Adventurer here.

So, anybody else think that good BAB, two good saves, full arcane spell progression, full divine spell progression, and full bardic music and bardic knowledge advancement for the Fochlucan Lyrist is insane?


----------



## Staffan (Jan 8, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> WotC has put up excepts from Complete Adventurer here.



The Goad feat makes a perfect companion for my halfling's Giantbane feat. I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet, but I recognize that Giantbane kinda sucks when you have companions that your opponent can attack instead of you (the primary ability depends on you using Total Defense, and your opponent attacking you and missing). Forcing the opponent to attack you instead of anyone else would appear to work wonderfully with Giantbane.


----------



## Doug McCrae (Jan 8, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> So, anybody else think that good BAB, two good saves, full arcane spell progression, full divine spell progression, and full bardic music and bardic knowledge advancement for the Fochlucan Lyrist is insane?



Not really. I think you have to hold a belief or beliefs that are divergent from those commonly held by your culture and those beliefs cause you to be a danger to yourself or others. Now _that's_ insane.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jan 8, 2005)

My questions are...

Is the Fochulan Lyrist the same as the one in the excerpt and there are no typos?  (Some might say it's too powerful, but it requires levels in 3 different classes)...

What are some of the things the Bard gets?  Is the Virtouso any different from the one in Song & Silence.  Is there a replacement for the Alluring feat (+2 diplomacy and language dependant, mind-affecting spell save DCs) from Song & Silence?

Is the Shadowmind a "psionic trickster", does it get more than improved manifester levels and sneak attack.

What's the Wild Shifter like?  Can it shapechange at will at 10th level...

It sounds like the Scout would work well when multiclassed with fighter, are there any particular effective character builds as far as feat paths go?


----------



## Darkness (Jan 8, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> good BAB, two good saves, full arcane spell progression, full divine spell progression, and full bardic music and bardic knowledge advancement



That's not all:



> Unbound: A Fochlucan lyrist's druid oaths are relaxed, allowing her to wear light metal armor with no loss of spellcasting, supernatural, or spell-like abilities. A lyrist also suffers no experience point penalty for multiclassing.




They also get 6 skill points and d6 for HD.


----------



## Trainz (Jan 8, 2005)

I'm overwhelmed. There's SO MUCH good stuff in the feats section alone. Damn.

For example, in the campaign I'm currently playing, I play a human Pal2/Sorc8/Fatespinner1. I intended to take another level of Fatespinner for my next level, but by taking a single level of Monk and the Ascetic Mage feat from CAdv, I will instantly add 9 to my armor class. NINE.

Damn.

I was already through the roof with my saving throws (21-16-20 IIRC), but now I will also be untouchable in melee (and that +9 will also count versus touch and incorporeal attacks !).

Overwhelmed.

Basically what that feat does is add your Monk levels and Arcanist levels to determine your monk AC, and (wait for it...) if you're a sorceror you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for your bonus to AC. You can also burn (as a free action) a spell slot to give you an equal  bonus to your unarmed attacks and damage for one round, but that's just icing on the cake.

*giggle*

Ususally when I look at the feats in the Complete books, only 5 or so get my attention, but in this book, at least half of them made me go "sweet".


----------



## Darkness (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Basically what that feat does is add your Monk levels and Arcanist levels to determine your monk AC, and (wait for it...) if you're a sorceror you use Charisma instead of Wisdom for your bonus to AC. You can also burn (as a free action) a spell slot to give you an equal  bonus to your unarmed attacks and damage for one round, but that's just icing on the cake.
> 
> *giggle*



 OMGWTFBBQ!!!!!11!onehundredeleven

Sweet.


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 8, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> So, anybody else think that good BAB, two good saves, full arcane spell progression, full divine spell progression, and full bardic music and bardic knowledge advancement for the Fochlucan Lyrist is insane?




Agreed. The full BAB progression and 6+INT skill points/level
have to be in error - way overpowered otherwise. I'd drop BAB to 1/2 and skill points to 4+INT/level.

Sadly (for me), Spymaster got nerfed into a 7 level class:

HD: d6 [was d8]
7 level prestige class [was 10]
poor Fort and Will saves, good Ref saves [was good Will]
Sneak Attack +1d6 at 3rd and 6th [was at 1st, 4th, 7th]
No required ranks
Undetectable Alignment changed from 2nd to 1st 
Quick Change changed from 3rd to 2nd
Slippery Mind changed from 5th to 4th
Deep Cover changed from 8th to 7th

New abilities: 

Scrying Defense (at 2nd) - add class level to both Will and Spot checks to avoid divination (scrying) spells and to notice sensors created by such spells

Magic aura (at 3rd) - Nystul's Magic Aura at will with caster level equal to Spymaster class level

Dispel Scrying (5th) - can dispel a scrying sensor as if targeted by Greater Dispel Magic, with caster level equal to class level+10. Can be used 3+INT modifier/day.

And they lost all the other abilities from 8th, 9th, and 10th level, which is not such a big deal, but I'd swapped out Mind Blank for Polyglot, which was quite a useful non-powergaming option.


----------



## Gez (Jan 8, 2005)

The Fochlucan Lyrist, overpowered or not (I tend to think it is, because each of the required classes, rogue or (ex-)monk for evasion, druid, and bard, all have a lower BAB than the Lyrist; although that said, if you do not use fractional progression, I understand why they would compensate with a full BAB), is perfect for Faerûn's Harpers (who are often rangers, rogues, and/or bards) and for Eberron's Greensingers (druid/bard).

Is there an ascetic druid feat? I long wanted to try out my "master of harmony" concept, a druid/monk, but thought it would only be worth it in a gestalt campaign.


----------



## Sammael (Jan 8, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> The Fochlucan Lyrist is perfect for Faerûn's Harpers (who are often rangers, rogues, and/or bards).



That's the first thought that occured to me as well. Much better for elite Harpers than the Harper Paragon from PgtF.


----------



## Knight Otu (Jan 8, 2005)

cignus_pfaccari said:
			
		

> Unlikely; Divine Grace is an untyped bonus, so it will stack with anything, even another untyped bonus.




 After checking the wording again, I'm on the fence on it, so I decided to ask the experts.

 Also, I'm curious about the wording of the abilities that allow off-hand attacks on a standard action/spring attack. I've tried to come up for something like that for my LEW dervish PrC, but I didn't like my wording.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 8, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Hmmm... Dual Strike... has this one been published before? Lets you strike with two weapons as a standard action and a -4 penalty. I know some players who will like that. And they will all have spring attack...




If that's how it's worded, it won't work with Spring Attack.

If it says you can strike with two weapons as an _attack_ action, it will work with Spring Attack.  If it just says "standard action", that's not enough... just like Manyshot and Shot on the Run.

-Hyp.


----------



## Kae'Yoss (Jan 8, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> Danke schön!





			
				Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> de nada!




Oh my god, you're speaking in tongues! Wie schrecklich!



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If that's how it's worded, it won't work with Spring Attack.
> 
> If it says you can strike with two weapons as an _attack_ action, it will work with Spring Attack.  If it just says "standard action", that's not enough... just like Manyshot and Shot on the Run.
> 
> -Hyp.




Yes, that's how it is I think. But the tempest has double spring attack, or so I've heard.


----------



## drnuncheon (Jan 8, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> So, anybody else think that good BAB, two good saves, full arcane spell progression, full divine spell progression, and full bardic music and bardic knowledge advancement for the Fochlucan Lyrist is insane?




Three classes to get in...holy macaroni, it's the 1e bard!

I would hope that the BAB at the least should be medium.

J


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 8, 2005)

What?  No one commenting on the Spellthief excerpted on the WotC page?  I'm having to work (on a Saturday...oh the horror) so I've not had time to sit down and really read it closely.  My first impression is "Wow!  a 20 Level Prestige Class" because of all the really cool class abilities.


----------



## Psion (Jan 8, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> If that's how it's worded, it won't work with Spring Attack.
> 
> If it says you can strike with two weapons as an _attack_ action, it will work with Spring Attack.  If it just says "standard action", that's not enough... just like Manyshot and Shot on the Run.




The wording is very close to manyshot, including the text about precision based damage (but lacking ability to make more attacks for a higher BAB.) It says "As a standard action, you may make a melee attack with your primary weapon and your off hand weapon."

That said, I am not precisely seeing your argument. You seem to be saying that manyshot or dual strike would not be an "attack action." It clearly seems to be an attack action to me. Neither manyshot nor dual strike define any rules for (frex) whether you suffer an attack of opportunity for using them. They are clearly an exception to the standard rules for attack actions, and there is no reason in any other way to not treat them as attack actions. (Is there actually a ruling that says this?)

Edit: Okay - I see the FAQ agrees with the manyshot as you discuss it. But it also admits that this ruling is "slicing the baloney a little thin". So I'll file this in the "easily dismissable stupid rulings" right next to the "burst weapons don't also do regular damage when bursting" thing from 3.0.


----------



## Egres (Jan 8, 2005)

Altamont Ravenard said:
			
		

> - Virtuoso (Jimi Hendrix)


----------



## JPL (Jan 8, 2005)

Could someone give additional skinny on the exemplar?  "Master of a single skill" sounds mighty interesting.


----------



## Psion (Jan 8, 2005)

DungeonmasterCal said:
			
		

> What?  No one commenting on the Spellthief excerpted on the WotC page?  I'm having to work (on a Saturday...oh the horror) so I've not had time to sit down and really read it closely.  My first impression is "Wow!  a 20 Level Prestige Class" because of all the really cool class abilities.




My thoughts were similar, but went more along the lines of "look! A class that is way too specific and really should be a prestige class! I won't be using this!"


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 8, 2005)

Heh... I'll allow players to use it, but I do agree it'd made a better PrC (at least at first glance).


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 8, 2005)

One other thing to note with the Fochlucan Lyrist is that it is intended as Bard/Druid multiclassed build. I suspect Evasion should not be one of the prestige class requirements - though the sample build does have Evasion.

Somone asked about the Exemplar ...

All skills are class skills. 8 skill points/level.
HD d6. BAB 3/4. Good Will saves, poor Fort/Ref saves.

Skill Artistry (1st, 4th, 7th, 10th) - choose skill which have 13 ranks in, gain +4 competence bonus in that skill. Must choose a different skill each time.

Skill Mastery (1st) - in 1+INT modifier number of skills.

Lend Talent (2nd) - accept penalty on skill checks to give half this as bonus to all allies within 30'. Penalty may not exceed class level.

Bonus Feats (3rd, 6th, 9th) - must be Skill Focus or a Skill Affinity feat

Sustaining Presence (4th) - add CHA bonus to Concentration checks and Fort saves

Persuasive Performance (5th) - may use skill with skill artistry as a Diplomacy check. 

Intellectual Agility (9th) - INT bonus adds to initiative and Ref saves.

Perfect Self (10th) - as the Monk ability.


----------



## JPL (Jan 8, 2005)

Tessarael said:
			
		

> Somone asked about the Exemplar ...




Ooooo, very nice.  Good for all sorts of non-traditional characters...a heroic version of the Expert.


----------



## iksander (Jan 8, 2005)

It looks like the Lyricist is meant for a character that has been multiclassing into 3 different classes, so the evasion sticks...otherwise the class would be to easy to get into with to many benefits.

I think they tried to remedy the hits on BAB (incurred by extreme multiclassing) with a fighters attack progression.


----------



## CronoDekar (Jan 8, 2005)

I actually kinda like the spellthief.  Normally this is the type of thing I'd prefer as a prest (and TBH, before even seeing the class I thought that)... but I don't know, I guess I like it as a core class for some reason.  They did a nice job preventing extreme abuse in my opinion, and I've been thinking of ways I could get clever and have fun with it.  Fighting a Mind Flayer?  Steal its Mind Blast and use it against his cronies.  Seems fun, though I'm not sure how useful the class would be.

Regarding the Lyrist, I agree that evasion seems odd as a prereq and might just be a typo, but I suppose I can't be sure.  The BAB and the two saves may be a bit much, but I think having BK, music, and both druidic and bardic songs isn't too bad -- particularly since you have to be Lv10 before you can enter it.  Seems like an odd prest though.

Now that I look at it again, there is another example that's a rogue/bard/druid, so I guess you do have to have levels in all three.  Weird.  It's a little too pidegonholed then for my tastes.


----------



## Tetsubo (Jan 8, 2005)

How does the Wild Shifter differ from the old Shifter PrC? The Shifter is my favorite PrC in the game.


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 8, 2005)

Oh, don't get me wrong...I like the Spellthief...I just think it's waaaay too specific to be a base class.  But on the other hand, I'm fool for the Soulknife, and the same can be argued of it.


----------



## Psion (Jan 8, 2005)

Tessarael said:
			
		

> One other thing to note with the Fochlucan Lyrist is that it is intended as Bard/Druid multiclassed build. I suspect Evasion should not be one of the prestige class requirements - though the sample build does have Evasion.




I can see that. It would fit more comfortably to me. It seems like 2 classes to qualify is the most I am comfortable with for PrCs.

One thing I really dig about the complete books is the "adaptation" block. It should drive home the sentiment of "play around with these things, folks. Really."


----------



## Len (Jan 8, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> That said, I am not precisely seeing your argument. You seem to be saying that manyshot or dual strike would not be an "attack action." It clearly seems to be an attack action to me. Neither manyshot nor dual strike define any rules for (frex) whether you suffer an attack of opportunity for using them. They are clearly an exception to the standard rules for attack actions, and there is no reason in any other way to not treat them as attack actions. (Is there actually a ruling that says this?)



The rule is in Table 8-2 in the PHB, and in the wording of the feats. "Attack" is one type of standard action. Not all standard actions are the "Attack" action. Dual Strike and Manyshot are standard actions that are not an Attack action.

There's a much longer explanation in the D&D FAQ regarding Manyshot vs. Shot on the Run, which use the same wording as Dual Strike and Spring Attack.


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 8, 2005)

Puts on his MT cap...

the FL Would (at 20th) look like this...

Rogue2/Drd4/Brd4/FL10 (assuming rogue is a viable favored class option, otherwise 3/3/4/10)
BAB: +1 (r) +3 (b) +3 (d) +10 (FL) = +17 BAB
Fort: +0 (r) +1 (b) +4 (d) +3 (FL) = +8
Ref: +3 (r) +4 (b) + +1 (d) +7 (FL) = +15
Will: +0 (r) +4 (b) +4 (d) +7 = +15
HD: 2d6 (r) + 4d6 (b) + 4d8 (d) +10d6 (FL).
Average hp (rog first) 81 hp + con
Total Skill Points: 32 (rog 1st) + 8 (r) +24 (b) +16 (d) + 60 (FL) = 140

Spellcasting Brd: 14, Drd 14
Bard Music: as 14th level bard
Bardic Know: 14 + int
Animal Companion: 4th level
Sneak Attack +1d6
Evasion

Ranks Needed to Get into PrC: 48 ranks total, various c.c.
Minimum Level needed to take: 10th (13 ranks in Perform)
Minimum bard levels: 1
Minimum rogue levels: 2
Minimum Drd levels: 1

Honestly; It has the MT complex. Great when your 20th, but UNTIL then you'll be a useless combatant (3 average babs (+7 at 10th), druid/bard armor restrictions (hello leather!), d6/d8 hp, 1d6 SA) a poor arcane caster (4th), and a poor divine caster (4th). You won't even have acess to many of the great bard songs or improved courage, nor will you be wild-shaping into better combat forms. You'll have a 4th level Animal companion (worthless later on). Later, your BAB becomes better and your spells improve to finally catch up some (but not even to the point a MT has). Your BSong gets useable, but your still never gonna wildshape. The Unbound gives you a chain shirt (+4 AC, Lgt) at the cost of hide armor (+3, med) unless you want to suffer ASF for your Bard spells. Your Skill points are equal to a bards after a while, but with a heavy opening investment (7 ranks in 5 skills, 13 in perform)

MHO: Despite looking imposing on paper, a character with this PC is no better off than an MT or EK.


----------



## Psion (Jan 8, 2005)

Len said:
			
		

> The rule is in Table 8-2 in the PHB, and in the wording of the feats. "Attack" is one type of standard action. Not all standard actions are the "Attack" action. Dual Strike and Manyshot are standard actions that are not an Attack action.
> 
> There's a much longer explanation in the D&D FAQ regarding Manyshot vs. Shot on the Run, which use the same wording as Dual Strike and Spring Attack.




You must have started your reply regarding this after I edited my post to recognize the FAQ. Or ignored that part of my post.

Yes, I read the FAQ, but from a technical aspect I think it's dubious, as it is not in line with the way D&D rules operate. The rules under attack actions are used for all attacks. Were I to follow the logic the FAQ follows, I would have no formalized means how to resolve a manyshot. The FAQ even admits that there is no formal action type called attack actions. It does state the intent is that they not work together; the proper thing to do would be to state as much in the feat description.


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 8, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> How does the Wild Shifter differ from the old Shifter PrC? The Shifter is my favorite PrC in the game.




First things First: They have the name wrong in the LJ doc. Its called the MASTER OF MANY FORMS, and specifically states its the retooled shifter in the flavor text...

Req: alterness & endurance feats, wild-shape

BAB Average, Good Fort and Ref Saves

1st: speak normal in any form, communicate with animals of type formed. Imp Wild Shape (humanoids)
2nd: IWS: giant/large
3rd: Fast (move action) WS, IWS: Monster Humanoid
4th: IWS: fey/tiny
5th: IWS: Vermin
6th: IWS: Aberration/Huge
7th: IWS: Plant, Extraordinary WS (take on EX traits in WS)
8th: IWS: Ooze/Dimulative
9th: IWS: Elemental
10th: IWS: Dragon/Gargantuan, Evershift form (gains shapechanger subtype and immune to shapechange magic unless she wishes to be affected)


----------



## Knight Otu (Jan 8, 2005)

Thanks for the answer, Psion! And thanks to Altamont for the answers to my previous post!


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 8, 2005)

*Only one CAdv prestige class has Uncanny Dodge!*

I'm trying to figure out how to update my character with Complete Adventurer changes, and I notice my prestige class doesn't have Uncanny Dodge. Thinking about it, I didn't notice any which did.

I just skimmed through the prestige classes again. Streetfighter appears to be the only prestige class that gets Uncanny Dodge.

Nightsong Infiltrator and Dungeon Delver are the only prestige classes that get Trap Sense. 

Surely Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense are standard Rogue abilities that should appear more often in the roguish prestige classes? I don't care much about Trap Sense, as it is a weak ability, but Uncanny Dodge is quite useful, and not having stacking for Uncanny Dodge is quite painful (i.e. a high level (14th) Sneak Attack person can get you, even if you have Improved Uncanny Dodge, because your level in it will only be say around 10th level when your character level is say 20th after your prestige class).

Something else I noticed. Spymaster gives a class level Spot bonus to Spot scrying sensors, but where are the rules for spotting scrying sensors in Complete Adventurer? In Song & Silence, they explicitly said that a Spymaster could make a Spot check vs. DC 20.


----------



## Trainz (Jan 8, 2005)

Another feat that is important is the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. It allows you to fight with two medium weapons as if you were fighting with one medium and one light weapon, in effect giving you a +2 on all those attacks.

Revenge of the Angst Ridden Drow.

I have a player that fights with two light weapons. I will allow him to switch them to medium if he wants, and thus be able to use his Power Attack feat.

Nice.


----------



## Veldrane (Jan 8, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> First things First: They have the name wrong in the LJ doc. Its called the MASTER OF MANY FORMS, and specifically states its the retooled shifter in the flavor text...
> 
> Req: alterness & endurance feats, wild-shape
> 
> ...



 Can someone tell me how different is now Improved Wild Shape to normal Wild Shape, if Ex abilities are granted at level 7?
Is there any other difference between the old Shifter and the new Master of Many Forms?
Thanks a lot


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 8, 2005)

Veldrane said:
			
		

> Can someone tell me how different is now Improved Wild Shape to normal Wild Shape, if Ex abilities are granted at level 7? Is there any other difference between the old Shifter and the new Master of Many Forms?




As covered by Remathilis, they gain extraordinary special qualities at 7th level. Improved Wild Shape just gives extra forms that you can use for Wild Shape - i.e. Humanoid at 1st level, Giant and Large at 2nd, etc.

The levels at which the various forms are granted has changed. They don't get to wild shape to Undead, Outsider, or Magical Beast.


----------



## Psion (Jan 8, 2005)

Does the pic of the sample Shadowmind remind anyone else of Julia Duffy (who will always be the airheaded girl in Newhart to me, though she also has some cheesy SF/F shows to her credit.)


----------



## Darkness (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Another feat that is important is the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. It allows you to fight with two medium weapons as if you were fighting with one medium and one light weapon



 Oooh, nifty. Let's see what I can do with that.

Race: Goliath (for Powerful Build)
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting, Monkey Grip

I.e., you dual-wield two Huge bastard swords (dmg 3d8) as if you were using a medium and a light weapon. (At a further -2 to hit due to Monkey Grip.)

If you're a Psychic Warrior, you can use _expansion_ to increase your size to Large and your swords' size to Gargantuan (dmg 4d8).

Nice.


----------



## Egres (Jan 8, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> Oooh, nifty. Let's see what I can do with that.
> 
> Race: Goliath (for Powerful Build)
> Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (bastard sword), Oversize Two-Weapon Fighting, Monkey Grip
> ...



Monkey Grip doesn't work for off-hand weapons.


----------



## Psion (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Another feat that is important is the Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. It allows you to fight with two medium weapons as if you were fighting with one medium and one light weapon, in effect giving you a +2 on all those attacks.




Another johnny-come-lately for WotC. Masters of Arm had this feat (or rather, one identical in all but name) as the feature/class feat for it's dual sword master PrC.


----------



## MerricB (Jan 8, 2005)

The Fochluchan Lyrist seems to be mainly a new take on the 1E Bard.

From the 1st edition Players Handbook:
"Bards begin play as _fighters_, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of _thieves_. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical stuides as _druids_, but at this time they are actually _bards_ and under druidical tutelage."

That's where the druid and thief requirements come from - bards used to be able to cast Druidic spells.

Cheers!


----------



## Darkness (Jan 8, 2005)

Egres said:
			
		

> Monkey Grip doesn't work for off-hand weapons.



Ah, true. I knew there was a reason I had never worked Monkey Grip into two-weapon builds. This time, I got greedy and forgot this detail, though. 

Let's see... Change the off-hand bastard sword to a Large one then (dmg 2d8), which will become Huge with _expansion_.


----------



## Zuoken (Jan 8, 2005)

Ohhh, _Ghost-Faced Killer_? Tell me more.


----------



## Egres (Jan 8, 2005)

Hi!

May I ask for some info about the Nightsong Enforcer and the Brutal Throw feat?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 9, 2005)

brutal throw lets you use your str mod to hit with thrown weapons instead of your dex mod (for those half-orc axe-throwers)

Nightsong enforcer is basically for fighter/rogues. It has a good bab, d8 hd, skill 4 SP, with sneaking in better armor, and lots of teamwork abilities (as does the infiltrator, his pure-rogue cousin).


----------



## Egres (Jan 9, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> Nightsong enforcer is basically for fighter/rogues. It has a good bab, d8 hd, skill 4 SP, with sneaking in better armor, and lots of teamwork abilities (as does the infiltrator, his pure-rogue cousin).



No sneak attacks then?

Ow.....  

However, thank you for the quick reply!


----------



## Swiftbrook (Jan 9, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> Ah, true. I knew there was a reason I had never worked Monkey Grip into two-weapon builds. This time, I got greedy and forgot this detail, though.
> 
> Let's see... Change the off-hand bastard sword to a Large one then (dmg 2d8), which will become Huge with _expansion_.




Unless you have a Huge Sun Blade.  I would rule that the Huge Sun Blade (bastard sword) can be wielded as a Large weapon.

-Swiftbrook


----------



## Taren Seeker (Jan 9, 2005)

Egres said:
			
		

> No sneak attacks then?
> 
> Ow.....
> 
> However, thank you for the quick reply!



 It has Sneak at 1,4,7,10

Also good ref.


----------



## Plane Sailing (Jan 9, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> but by taking a single level of Monk and the Ascetic Mage feat from CAdv, I will instantly add 9 to my armor class. NINE.




I have to say that this *doesn't* sound like a well designed and nicely balanced feat...


----------



## Egres (Jan 9, 2005)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> It has Sneak at 1,4,7,10
> 
> Also good ref.



*This* is a good piece of news!  

Thanks!


----------



## Taren Seeker (Jan 9, 2005)

BTW I need to say how interesting I am finding this book, although it may be better termed a book for skill users and chronic multiclassers ; ). There are  feats and PrC's here that would have fit right in with some of my more awkward multi ideas back when 3.0 first came out.

Also SWEET JEEBUS! They finally made a good Rog/Cleric PrC! Shadowbane Stalker is sweet. 9 levels of spellcasting, 6 skill points, ability to sack spell slots for bonuses to AC, stealth and attacks. They even fit in some sneak attack. Actually it probably works even better for a Favored Soul.

And they fixed the Tempest. It's a very attractive class to take now. Nice synergy with the two weapon style feats from CW.

I have a complaint though. I have been waiting patiently for some sort of magic item to add to Disable Device checks. Nada. You'd think the big book of skills would have looked into this. At least there are a couple of spells now that will add but one of them is personal only.

Where are my magic Thieves' Tools???


----------



## Raitaro (Jan 9, 2005)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> Where are my magic Thieves' Tools???



In _Sharn: City of Towers_, iirc.


----------



## Wil Harvey (Jan 9, 2005)

Taren Seeker said:
			
		

> I have a complaint though. I have been waiting patiently for some sort of magic item to add to Disable Device checks. Nada. You'd think the big book of skills would have looked into this. At least there are a couple of spells now that will add but one of them is personal only.
> 
> Where are my magic Thieves' Tools???




Magic Thieves' Tools: These well-made tools enable the user to disable nearly any mechanism, granting a +5 competence bonus on Disable Device and Open Lock checks.

Faint transmutation; CL 5th; Craft Wondrous Item; Price 6,250 gp; Weight .5 lb.

I just made those. The price follows the rules set out in the DMG (with one caveat, below) and the precedents set by magic items of similar sorts. You might want to consider lowering it, though, considering that the 100gp masterwork thieves' tools grant a +2 bonus to both skills, which is quite the bargain.

Then again, you might consider that enough to offset the fact that the price of these isn't higher for being an unslotted item. In fact, it might just be better to make these gloves at the current price and allow them to stack with masterwork thieves' tools.


----------



## Dragonhelm (Jan 9, 2005)

MerricB said:
			
		

> The Fochluchan Lyrist seems to be mainly a new take on the 1E Bard.
> 
> From the 1st edition Players Handbook:
> "Bards begin play as _fighters_, and they must remain exclusively fighters until they have achieved at least the 5th level of experience. Anytime thereafter, and in any event prior to attaining the 8th level, they must change their class to that of _thieves_. Again, sometime between 5th and 9th level of ability, bards must leave off thieving and begin clerical stuides as _druids_, but at this time they are actually _bards_ and under druidical tutelage."
> ...




Of course!  That makes a lot more sense now.  For a second, I thought it was another take on the mystic theurge.  

I have to say, I really like this book.  One of the best in this series, and the best book from WotC I've seen in a while.  I've only browsed it over a couple of times thus far, but it looks very useful all in all.

I'm particularly happy with the Beastmaster, which is much better, IMO, than the Tamer of Beasts.  You get a total of 4 animal companions (including any you might have with druid or ranger levels).  Scent becomes an ability as well, and there's a couple of other goodies.

I'm happy.


----------



## Jdvn1 (Jan 9, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> Ah, true. I knew there was a reason I had never worked Monkey Grip into two-weapon builds. This time, I got greedy and forgot this detail, though.
> 
> Let's see... Change the off-hand bastard sword to a Large one then (dmg 2d8), which will become Huge with _expansion_.



Oh, and don't forget the new weapon quality that allows you to change the size of your weapon.


----------



## Tetsubo (Jan 9, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> First things First: They have the name wrong in the LJ doc. Its called the MASTER OF MANY FORMS, and specifically states its the retooled shifter in the flavor text...
> 
> Req: alterness & endurance feats, wild-shape
> 
> ...





Thank you Remathilis. Can they assume incorpereal (sp?) forms anymore?


----------



## RangerWickett (Jan 9, 2005)

Are there any sort of suggestion for bard-paladins?  New feats, prestige classes, abilities?


----------



## DungeonmasterCal (Jan 9, 2005)

Could someone explain this to me?  I get most of my gaming stuff from a local chain store, Hastings.  Some stuff I buy online, and my new FLGS still mostly sells used copies of 1e material.  So anyway, I got a gift card for Hastings for Christmas.  Excitedly, I call Hastings today (knowing that gaming books nearly always arrive 2 weeks after EVERYONE else gets them) on the off chance they might have CAdv.  They tell me they won't even be getting copies until February 28th, and when I told the woman on the phone some folks had copies, I get a lecture on the illegality of breaking street down on new releases.

Now I've worked retail (video rental) and I know you don't break street date.  But why is it that Hastings (and other chains) can get movies, videogames, and other books ON STREET DATE, but their gaming is always at least 2 weeks behind?  The manager at the store had no idea, and seemed genuinely befuddled when I spoke to him.

Sigh...so it'll be MARCH before I get my copy.  Bastards.


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2005)

Tetsubo said:
			
		

> Can they assume incorpereal (sp?) forms anymore?




No. Also note that while they get extraordinary special qualities at 7th level with extraordinary wild shape, they never get supernatural abilities. As Undead and Outsiders aren't allowed types, I doubt there are any incorporeal forms within the allowed types.

Looks like the Shaper got hit with the nerf stick with good reason. I still think the resulting product is still too good, but then again, I think Shapechange is broken.


----------



## Banshee16 (Jan 9, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> First things First: They have the name wrong in the LJ doc. Its called the MASTER OF MANY FORMS, and specifically states its the retooled shifter in the flavor text...
> 
> Req: alterness & endurance feats, wild-shape
> 
> ...




One thing I don't change is the alteration to the pre-requisites....it's now basically a druid-only PrC.  The old version could be used by wizards of lvl 7, sorcerers lvl 8, or creatures with innate polymorph self abilities.

I don't personally mind the other changes bringing it to 3.5.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Jan 9, 2005)

I was flipping through it in the store, and it seemed like the ninja core class was less balanced than the one in the Rokugan book.  Samd HD, but worse attack progression....but the bonus to AC, plus a bunch of abilities, including being able to become incorporeal.  had all the magic abilities I'm not keen on.  Unless my first read-through was incorrect..

Banshee


----------



## Trainz (Jan 9, 2005)

RangerWickett said:
			
		

> Are there any sort of suggestion for bard-paladins?  New feats, prestige classes, abilities?




Precisely actually. A new feat:

Devoted Performer:
Prereq: Bardic Music, Smite Evil
Benefit: You can multiclass freely between Bard and Paladin back and forth. Bard and Paladin levels stack for smite evil damage and uses per day of bardic music.
A Bard 7/Paladin 7 with this feat would do +14 damage on smite evil and have 14 uses of bardic music per day.


----------



## Trainz (Jan 9, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I was flipping through it in the store, and it seemed like the ninja core class was less balanced than the one in the Rokugan book.  Samd HD, but worse attack progression....but the bonus to AC, plus a bunch of abilities, including being able to become incorporeal.  had all the magic abilities I'm not keen on.  Unless my first read-through was incorrect..
> 
> Banshee




My take on the Ninja: it's a nice class, but its sneak attack is LESS effective than a rogue, in that flanking doesn't let him sneak. Shouldn't a ninja be MORE deadly than a rogue with sneak attack ?

Maybe it's just me...


----------



## Trainz (Jan 9, 2005)

Perusing this book, I came on a pretty good build for a sneak-attacker.

There is a new arcane 1st level spell that is a swift action to cast and allows you to sneak attack constructs for one round. By the same token, there is a new cleric 1st level spell that is a swift action to cast and allows you to sneak attack undead for one round.

So cleric1/sorceror1/rogue3/invisible blade 5. Sneak attack almost at will, and almost anything.

Because you're a cleric, you also pick two domains (Farlanghn is nice, for _good fortune_ and _freedom of movement_ 1 round per day), and you can use your turn undead attempts with a feat such as Divine Vigor. If you want more uses of sneak attacks versus undead, pick a level of Favored Soul instead of cleric. Actually, can you take a single level of cleric AND a single level of Favored Soul, for a pletora of first level divine spells ? If yes, even better !

With that, focus on feats that boost you sneak attacks (from BoED, PsiHB, and CAdv), which would make your sneak attacks do xd8 versus evil critters, reroll 1's, and if target fails an almost impossible to succeed fort save, is staggered for one round.

Boom baby.


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 9, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> My take on the Ninja: it's a nice class, but its sneak attack is LESS effective than a rogue, in that flanking doesn't let him sneak. Shouldn't a ninja be MORE deadly than a rogue with sneak attack?
> 
> Maybe it's just me...





I would hope a Ninja would be better at sneak attacks, but it is understandable that they don't get sneak attacks while flanking. I tend to think of Ninjas as using diversionary tactics to avoid combat whenever possible. There's no pre-requisite that would keep a Ninja from multiclassing as an Assassin, is there? If not, then there's always that route for Ninja characters who want to specialize in murder.


----------



## Darkness (Jan 9, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Actually, can you take a single level of cleric AND a single level of Favored Soul, for a pletora of first level divine spells ? If yes, even better !



 Sure.


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 9, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> So cleric1/sorceror1/rogue3/invisible blade 5. Sneak attack almost at will, and almost anything.




This brings me to a question about combinations of classes DMs would allow. I generally want something more than mechanic possibilities before I okay a build like the one above. While I'm sure there as many clever explanations for the example character above as there are people who would dream it up, I'm loathe to allow players to choose a class just because it gives them Special Ability _X_. 

I have a PC in my campaign that is a Wanderer*/Fighter/Pirate*/Dread Pirate, the same number of classes as the one above, but these classes seem more congruent with one another than the patchwork quilt above. Of course, I realize this is merely a judgement call on my part, but I would still require a very convincing description (that was more than just BS so they could be an Uber-backstabber) of this character's backstory before I'd allow it.

What this all boils down to is the recent trend in D&D to push the options to the very ends of possibility. In most cases I commend this, but it can open up a great many holes in the net of reason. From my experience there are always going to be opportunistic gamers ready to leap through such holes and make a mess of things. While I like that much of the material in _The Complete Adventurer_ supports unusual and interesting multi-class characters, I'm concerned that it will lead to bedlam in my games.

*The Wanderer and Pirate PrCs come from AEG's _Swashbuckling Adventures_.


----------



## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Precisely actually. A new feat:
> 
> Devoted Performer:
> Prereq: Bardic Music, Smite Evil
> ...




As long as you keep changing your alignment freely "back and forth"?  :\


----------



## Glyfair (Jan 9, 2005)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> As long as you keep changing your alignment freely "back and forth"?  :\




Actually, the feat covers this.  It basically allows you to ignore the bard alignment restriction (i.e. you can be lawful).  OTOH, it doesn't allow you to ignore the paladin alignment restrictions.


----------



## Sammael (Jan 9, 2005)

The bardic alignment restriction makes no sense whatsoever anyhow. It was one of the first things I house-ruled out in 3E.


----------



## Gez (Jan 9, 2005)

IMC: Depending on bardic school, some bards (more like minstrels) must be non-lawful and others (more like actual celtic bards, or norse skalds) must be non-chaotic.
As for paladin, the main paladin faith accepts NG paladins as well as LG. There's also another faith that accepts LN paladins.

So, IMC, it is possible to be a paladin/druid/bard multiclass combo...


----------



## Staffan (Jan 9, 2005)

Remathilis said:
			
		

> First things First: They have the name wrong in the LJ doc. Its called the MASTER OF MANY FORMS, and specifically states its the retooled shifter in the flavor text...



Wild guess: name change due to the Shifter race from Eberron.


----------



## Li Shenron (Jan 9, 2005)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> Actually, the feat covers this.  It basically allows you to ignore the bard alignment restriction (i.e. you can be lawful).  OTOH, it doesn't allow you to ignore the paladin alignment restrictions.




Well, this wasn't in the quote above. I thought that was the whole feat description, but maybe it's not.


----------



## rushlight (Jan 9, 2005)

I was hoping that someone with CA can fill me in on the Brutal Throw feat.

I've got my fingers crossed that it's about thrown weapons...  

If it's not, are there any feats out there good for thrown items - especially things like rocks.  That might be too specific, though...


----------



## Tetsubo (Jan 9, 2005)

Tessarael said:
			
		

> No. Also note that while they get extraordinary special qualities at 7th level with extraordinary wild shape, they never get supernatural abilities. As Undead and Outsiders aren't allowed types, I doubt there are any incorporeal forms within the allowed types.
> 
> Looks like the Shaper got hit with the nerf stick with good reason. I still think the resulting product is still too good, but then again, I think Shapechange is broken.




But isn't there a Feat in the Savage Species book that allows you to assume a Supernatural Ability while in an alternate form? You only get one ability per change but you can use them with this Feat.


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 9, 2005)

rushlight said:
			
		

> I was hoping that someone with CA can fill me in on the Brutal Throw feat.
> 
> I've got my fingers crossed that it's about thrown weapons...




from one page back: 



			
				Remathilis said:
			
		

> brutal throw lets you use your str mod to hit with thrown weapons instead of your dex mod (for those half-orc axe-throwers)


----------



## drnuncheon (Jan 9, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Another johnny-come-lately for WotC. Masters of Arm had this feat (or rather, one identical in all but name) as the feature/class feat for it's dual sword master PrC.




AU had it as well, IIRC.


----------



## drnuncheon (Jan 9, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> I was flipping through it in the store, and it seemed like the ninja core class was less balanced than the one in the Rokugan book.  Samd HD, but worse attack progression....but the bonus to AC, plus a bunch of abilities, including being able to become incorporeal.  had all the magic abilities I'm not keen on.  Unless my first read-through was incorrect.




If you want a "ninja" without the ninja magic, it's on page 49 of the PHB.


----------



## likuidice (Jan 9, 2005)

*prcs*

Any chance of the prereqs for the tempest and the rogue/fighter (nightsong infiltrator?).

anyone in the uk have this yet? amazon uk still lists an arrival date of feb 28th.


----------



## likuidice (Jan 9, 2005)

Originally Posted by Remathilis
Nightsong enforcer is basically for fighter/rogues. It has a good bab, d8 hd, skill 4 SP, with sneaking in better armor, and lots of teamwork abilities (as does the infiltrator, his pure-rogue cousin).

Meant this one, running a fighter rogue in a current game, this sounds like a perfect class, maybe with tempest levels tacked on.

thanks


----------



## JEL (Jan 9, 2005)

likuidice said:
			
		

> Any chance of the prereqs for the tempest and the rogue/fighter (nightsong infiltrator?).
> 
> anyone in the uk have this yet? amazon uk still lists an arrival date of feb 28th.




Tempest: BAB +6, Dodge, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Mobility, Spring Attack, and Two-Weapon Fighting.

Nightsong Enforcer: BAB +5, Hide 10 ranks, Move Silently 10 ranks, Improved Initiative, Evasion class feature, and intensive training and tests with Nightsong guild.


----------



## zoroaster100 (Jan 9, 2005)

What is the explanation or justification given for extra skirmish damage for the scout class?  Is it just like sneak attack damage except it applies when the movement condition is met?  Does it affect undead, constructs and plants?  Do they give a flavor explanation as to why a scout does more damage when the scout moves the required amount before attacking? Is the skirmish damage ability equal in power to sneak attack damage or is it more or less powerful?  Also, does the scout have d8 or d6 hit dice?


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 9, 2005)

Sadly, I don't have the book near me, so I can't comment on a flavor reason for skirmish. I vaguely recall it having something to do with being trained to make attack on the move, but I'm not 100%. 

Scouts have d6 HD. IMHO, if you want a non-spellcasting ranger variant thats more on movement and skill than old-school track and twf favored foes, this is your godsend. This class can set back the ever-popular ranger/rogue (wilder-ninja) build by taking some of the best of each and mixing so as not to defeat the rogues greatest abilities (mostly trap stuff and UCD) or the unique ranger stuff (FE, spells, combat paths).


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2005)

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> What is the explanation or justification given for extra skirmish damage for the scout class?  Is it just like sneak attack damage except it applies when the movement condition is met?  Does it affect undead, constructs and plants?  Do they give a flavor explanation as to why a scout does more damage when the scout moves the required amount before attacking? Is the skirmish damage ability equal in power to sneak attack damage or is it more or less powerful?  Also, does the scout have d8 or d6 hit dice?




The explanation is "A scout relies on mobility to deal extra damage and improve her defense." Seems like fluff to me.

It is identical to sneak attack damage, but requires that the Scout have moved 10' in the round. As a result, it does not affect creatures that are not vulnerable to critical hits.

I would say that it is less powerful. They get +5d6 skirmish damage in 20 levels, and we know it is weaker than sneak attack because of the movement requirement. The Scout also gets +5 AC in 20 levels with that skirmish stuff, if they move at least 10' in the round.

The Scout has d8 HD.

I think the Scout and Ninja base classes are poorly constructed. There was a reason why Sneak Attack was made usable more often in 3E, now these classes go back towards making it more difficult, without sufficient compensation in my mind. I think you'd be better off taking Rogue levels instead of levels in Scout or Ninja - maybe mix in some Ranger levels for Scout equivalent, and Sorcerer for Wizard equivalent (to emulate Swift Invisibility and stuff like that).

Then again, I've had that problem with most of the Complete Blah books. The base classes are generally worse than those presented in the PHB or Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. Unfettered is the sort of class I'd like to see, rather than Scout.


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2005)

To put it differently: there are already strong motivations for a Rogue to attack from being invisible or hidden, and for a Rogue to not go toe-to-toe in combat. I don't see any need to force those options to be the only good options for a Rogue-type character by reducing the situations in which a Scout or Ninja can use their sneak attack-type of ability.


----------



## zoroaster100 (Jan 9, 2005)

O.k., one of you said d6 and the other said d8 for the Scout.  Did the book list a different HD type in the chart and in the text by any chance. 

As to the skirmish damage, do you mean that the movement requirement is on top of the regular restrictions for sneak attack (flat-footed or flanking)?  I thought the movement restriction was instead of the sneak attack restrictions rather than in addition to them.

The other stuff in the book seems intersting, but I was wondering if the Scout class would be a good alternative for a new player I have that wants to play a good archer character with trapfinding and more skills than a fighter.  I was going to suggest a ranger with one level of rogue, but maybe the Scout is another alternative?


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2005)

zoroaster100 said:
			
		

> O.k., one of you said d6 and the other said d8 for the Scout.
> 
> As to the skirmish damage, do you mean that the movement requirement is on top of the regular restrictions for sneak attack (flat-footed or flanking)?  I thought the movement restriction was instead of the sneak attack restrictions rather than in addition to them.
> 
> The other stuff in the book seems intersting, but I was wondering if the Scout class would be a good alternative for a new player I have that wants to play a good archer character with trapfinding and more skills than a fighter.  I was going to suggest a ranger with one level of rogue, but maybe the Scout is another alternative?




I have the book in front of me. Scouts have d8 HD. Ninja and Spellthief have d6 HD.

You are correct. The movement restriction of at least 10' movement in a round is instead of flanking or that your opponent be flat-footed. Hmmm, that might well make Skirmish better than Sneak Attack, if you put together a build with Spring Attack for example.

Scouts do not get Disable Device as a class skill. As a result, I would be inclined to take some levels of Rogue anyway. If you're not focused on wilderness stuff, then Scout might make more sense than Ranger, providing you don't mind BAB 3/4 instead of BAB 1/1. Actually, I'm now thinking that Scout is comparable to Rogue and perhaps better than Ranger (but lower BAB, so depends on your focus).


----------



## Taren Seeker (Jan 9, 2005)

Wow never noticed that Scout doesn't have Disable. That MUST be a typo. They have the Trapfinding ability and the flavor text states that they are just as good as rogues at dealing with traps. The Trapfinding ability also mentions that Scouts can use Disable Device.


----------



## Cheiromancer (Jan 9, 2005)

Does the Master of Many forms get more uses of wildshape per day, or just better forms?


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2005)

Cheiromancer said:
			
		

> Does the Master of Many forms get more uses of wildshape per day?




One additional use per level in Master of Many Forms (listed at the end of the section on Improved Wild Shape).



			
				Seeker said:
			
		

> Wow never noticed that Scout doesn't have Disable. That MUST be a typo. They have the Trapfinding ability and the flavor text states that they are just as good as rogues at dealing with traps. The Trapfinding ability also mentions that Scouts can use Disable Device.




I'm not sure. It would make sense for them to have Disable Device. Then again, maybe it is intended that a Rogue be better in that regard, and that the Scout has to put in cross-class ranks.

With a few other typos and minor errors in the book, it makes me wonder whether this is an error or intentional. I think as a DM, it would be entirely reasonable to make Disable Device a class skill for Scout, especially if there is no Rogue in the party.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 9, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Yes, I read the FAQ, but from a technical aspect I think it's dubious, as it is not in line with the way D&D rules operate. The rules under attack actions are used for all attacks. Were I to follow the logic the FAQ follows, I would have no formalized means how to resolve a manyshot. The FAQ even admits that there is no formal action type called attack actions. It does state the intent is that they not work together; the proper thing to do would be to state as much in the feat description.




The FAQ answer was written by Skip Williams.

The Manyshot feat was written by Andy Collins; when he was queried on the SotR question in his pre-Sage days, he stated that he had deliberately phrased it as "standard action" and not as "attack action" to prevent the combination with SotR.

The Attack action is a standard action that allows you to make a single attack.  The Full Attack action is a full round action that allows you to make one or more attacks.  The Charge action is a full round action that allows you to make a single melee attack following a move.

If you have a feat that requires the Attack action or Full Attack action - like Combat Expertise - you can't use it if you Charge, even though when you charge, you make an attack.  Because that attack does not result from an Attack action or Full Attack action; it results from the Charge action.  Thus, you are not taking 'the Attack action or the Full Attack action', and are not eligible to use Combat Expertise.

In the same way, Dual Strike allows you to take a standard action to attack with both weapons.  It does not allow you to take the Attack action to attack with both weapons.

Spring Attack requires you to use the Attack action with a melee weapon.  If you use the Dual Strike standard action to attack with both weapons, you are not using the Attack action with a melee weapon, and thus cannot use Spring Attack.

-Hyp.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jan 9, 2005)

Sorry for the question that I know has been asked, but what is a Swift Action? Fancy word for free action?


----------



## Darkness (Jan 9, 2005)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> Sorry for the question that I know has been asked, but what is a Swift Action? Fancy word for free action?



A swift action is the kind of (free) action a Quickened spell uses.

Meaning you have only one per round.

The term first appeared in the Miniatures Handbook, I think.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jan 9, 2005)

I suppose that makes sense. So can you do a Swift action AND a free action in one round? Or does a Swift action eliminate any other free actions in a round?


----------



## Darkness (Jan 9, 2005)

You can take free actions as normal - i.e., a (theoretically) unlimited number.
The swift action is a new type of action and, even though similar to free actions, basically independent from them.

A quickened spell now takes a swift action, though (except for spontaneous casters, of course), so you can't use a quickened spell in a round where you take another swift action.


----------



## Remathilis (Jan 9, 2005)

He's right, its a d8. I'm an idiot.

I think the ninja/scout's different SA ability was to make them different enough from a rogue's to keep the rogue viable in its niche and not one of the pack. Ninja's get great stealth/magical abilities + AC bonus, so their SA doesn't work in flanking. A scouts got great movement and HD, but must keep moving to keep his SA bonus. This still leaves the rogue the SA king, while allowing other classes in on the fun. 

Thats the best I can come up with on why they have Search and no DD. They are adept at FINDING the traps, but not doing anyhting about them. They are SCOUTs afterall. 

(That said, giving them DD isn't going to be a deal-breaker.)


----------



## Gez (Jan 9, 2005)

The Miniature Handbook introduced the swift action, but basically, it has alway existed: it's like a free action, except you can make only one swift action per round. (They really should have put this in the PH 3.5.)
The Expanded Psionics Handbook introduced a variant of the swift action, the immediate action. An immediate action is a swift action, which itself is a free action. But in addition, the immediate action can be made outside of your turn.

Both of these type of actions have been since reprinted in several books, like Complete Arcane (p. 86).


----------



## Darkness (Jan 9, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> The Miniature Handbook introduced the swift action, but basically, it has alway existed



 Yes. It's exactly like the rules for a quickened spell, except that it has a distinct name.


----------



## Kobold Avenger (Jan 9, 2005)

Looks like these questions got sidetracked...

What are some of the things the Bard gets? Is the Virtouso any different from the one in Song & Silence. Is there a replacement for the Alluring feat (+2 diplomacy and language dependant, mind-affecting spell save DCs) from Song & Silence?

Is the Shadowmind a "psionic trickster", does it get more than improved manifester levels and sneak attack.


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2005)

Kobold Avenger said:
			
		

> Is the Virtouso any different from the one in Song & Silence?
> 
> Is the Shadowmind a "psionic trickster", does it get more than improved manifester levels and sneak attack?




Here's a quick summary of Shadowmind:

HD d6. BAB 3/4. Good Ref/Will saves, poor Fort. 4 skill points/level. Gets +3d6 Sneak Attack in 10 levels. +7 manifester levels in 10 levels. 

1st: Read Thoughts 1/day with reduced cost. 3rd: Cloud Mind 1/day at reduced cost. 9th: Mass Cloud Mind 1/day at reduced cost. 10th: Mind Stab - may manifest Cloud Mind vs. an opponent who he sneak attacked, as free action. 


Virtuoso ... what's in it and the changes:

6 skill points/level [was 4/level]
Virtuoso levels stack with Bard levels for bardic music.
Gains spellcasting levels at 2nd through to 10th (i.e. +9 in 10 levels). Virtuoso performance doesn't affect spellcasting or magic item activation, unlike a Bard [not really sure what the effect of this is mechanically]. 2 daily uses of bardic music may be used to deliver a virtuoso performance. Virtuoso performance may be used Virtuoso level/day
otherwise.

Fascinate (1st) - as Bard, if don't already have it

Persuasive Song (1st, must have Perform 11) - as Diplomacy check to influence NPC attitudes. 

Sustaining Song (3rd, must have Perform 13)  - allies within 30'  automatically become stable if dying. If already stable and between -1 HP and -9 HP, they gain 1 HP. 

Jarring Song (5th, must have Perform 15) - enemy within 30' casting a spell must make a Concentration check with DC equal to the Virtuoso's Perform check to avoid losing the spell. [Sounds quite nasty for someone who has maxed out Perform!]

Song of Fury (7th, must have Perform 17) - allies within 30' can choose to rage as Barbarian. 

Mindbending Melody (9th, and must have Perform 19) - functions as Dominate Person spell on someone that has already been fascinated. 

Revealing Melody (10th) - only affects allies within 30'. Only requires one daily Virtuoso performance use [required 2 in Song and Silence].


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 9, 2005)

I think you'll see more free actions being redefined as swift actions in future editions. For example, my DM house ruled that using a Glove of Storing (a free action) can only be used once/round. I think swift actions are a good way to limit activating and deactivating items, and to limit how many things a character can do simultaneously in one round with the right equipment and class abilities.

e.g. Round 1: I activate my Boots of Speed, cast a Quickened spell, yell to my friends, pop my weapons out of my Gloves of Storing, and then do a full attack ... It starts to add up to too much going on in one character's turn.


----------



## JPL (Jan 9, 2005)

OK, another question about the exemplar:  what, if anything, does the intro text suggest as far as areas of expertise?  Some of the class abilities seemed better suited for certain skills [although using Craft: pottery to make a Diplomacy check is fine with me...]

And what's the sample character's area of expertise?

OK, that's two questions.

[JPL thinking about his dwarf fighter / master chef...]


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2005)

Sammael said:
			
		

> The bardic alignment restriction makes no sense whatsoever anyhow. It was one of the first things I house-ruled out in 3E.




Lots of nonsensical restrictions (i.e., monk and paladin multiclass restrictions) get waved off as freebies in the ascetic and devoted feats.


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2005)

Staffan said:
			
		

> Wild guess: name change due to the Shifter race from Eberron.




I'm wondering when the Sharn (FR creature) is due for a name change.


----------



## CronoDekar (Jan 10, 2005)

Tessarael said:
			
		

> Virtuoso performance doesn't affect spellcasting or magic item activation, unlike a Bard [not really sure what the effect of this is mechanically].




When using bardic song normally, you can't cast spells or use spell completion/magic word items while you are singing; this restriction is apparently removed when using a virtuoso performance (this is a change from the S&S virtuoso).


----------



## Darkness (Jan 10, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> I'm wondering when the Sharn (FR creature) is due for a name change.



Right, they'll probably add another 'n.'


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The FAQ answer was written by Skip Williams.




Skip's made bad calls before. See burst weapons (which Monte explained his intent when writing was clearly contradictory to Skip's call.)



> The Manyshot feat was written by Andy Collins; when he was queried on the SotR question in his pre-Sage days, he stated that he had deliberately phrased it as "standard action" and not as "attack action" to prevent the combination with SotR.
> 
> The Attack action is a standard action that allows you to make a single attack.  The Full Attack action is a full round action that allows you to make one or more attacks.  The Charge action is a full round action that allows you to make a single melee attack following a move.
> 
> If you have a feat that requires the Attack action or Full Attack action - like Combat Expertise - you can't use it if you Charge, even though when you charge, you make an attack.  Because that attack does not result from an Attack action or Full Attack action; it results from the Charge action.  Thus, you are not taking 'the Attack action or the Full Attack action', and are not eligible to use Combat Expertise.




That's very bad game design IMO. Because then you have to remember niggly situations in which effects apply. When the feats merely apply as exceptions to the existing rules, vice existing in their own rules-space, you can merely assume that all other aspects of the rules apply as normal. You start "lawyering" the rules like this, pretty soon you need a lawyer to understand it.


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2005)

JPL said:
			
		

> OK, another question about the exemplar:  what, if anything, does the intro text suggest as far as areas of expertise?




No recommendations.



> And what's the sample character's area of expertise?




Perform (sing) and Tumble, IIRC.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 10, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Because then you have to remember niggly situations in which effects apply.




Huh?  What's niggly?

Are you taking the Attack action with a melee weapon?  If yes, you can Spring Attack.  If no, you can't.

Are you taking the Attack action or Full Attack action in melee?  If yes, you can use Combat Expertise.  If no, you can't.



> When the feats merely apply as exceptions to the existing rules, vice existing in their own rules-space, you can merely assume that all other aspects of the rules apply as normal.




The feat does apply as an exception to the existing rules.

Normally, you can't take a standard action to fire multiple arrows at a single target with a penalty to the attack roll.

With Manyshot, you can.

All other aspects of the rules apply as normal.  Since you're not taking the Attack action with a ranged weapon, you can't use Shot on the Run... just like the normal rules.

-Hyp.


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The feat does apply as an exception to the existing rules.




No, it makes its own "action" it seems.



> Normally, you can't take a standard action to fire multiple arrows at a single target with a penalty to the attack roll.
> 
> With Manyshot, you can.
> 
> All other aspects of the rules apply as normal.




No, because now you have a whole new action which is technically not an attack action, it is a "attack as a standard action." Which, as is being clearly demonstrated, has implications beyond what is clearly spelled out in the feat description.

The rules describe how to resolve an attack and a full attack; all variations should spring from those. We should NOT have to create a new sort of attack for every feat that lets you deviate from the rules.

As I said intitially, attack actions are defined in the rules, with things like how you resolve them and attacks of opportunity. All of a sudden we are expected to make assumptions about how these special attacks are resolved, but find that we cannot assume it operates like an attack action in all ways... just in ways that Andy Collins wants you to. Not being spelled out in the feat, we have to either read his mind or wait for the inevitable clarification. Think about it: I can't even make an assumption about whether or not I suffer an attack of opportunity when performing a dual strike. I would _assume_ I would not, because I would not for an attack action, and I would feel fairly safe in making that call. But since it's not technically an attack action, I technically can't make that call.


----------



## drnuncheon (Jan 10, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Huh?  What's niggly?




"You're attacking, but you're not using the attack _action_."  That sounds pretty niggly to me.  I understand how the rule works perfectly, but it doesn't lend itself easily to plausible in-game explanations.

J


----------



## Glyfair (Jan 10, 2005)

Li Shenron said:
			
		

> Well, this wasn't in the quote above. I thought that was the whole feat description, but maybe it's not.




I'll note that in a standard game that alignment shifting is required with the character.  You need both Smite Evil ability and Bardic Knowledge.  Unless there is a way to get smite evil without being lawful (it seems to me there might be, but I can't think of it), you have to start as a bard and switch to paladin for at least one shift of alignment.  

You can then take the feat, and gain levels in both bard & paladin.


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2005)

Glyfair said:
			
		

> I'll note that in a standard game that alignment shifting is required with the character.  You need both Smite Evil ability and Bardic Knowledge.  Unless there is a way to get smite evil without being lawful (it seems to me there might be, but I can't think of it), you have to start as a bard and switch to paladin for at least one shift of alignment.
> 
> You can then take the feat, and gain levels in both bard & paladin.




It's sticky to be sure, but class precedes feat, so it seems to me you could be a bard 2, and upon taking your third level, take paladin and the feat. You might need a lenient DM to let you wave off the sudden alignment shift, though.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 10, 2005)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> "You're attacking, but you're not using the attack _action_."




Right.



> That sounds pretty niggly to me.




I don't see it 

It's like how someone using Fly-By Attack can move, cast Scorching Ray, and move... but someone using Shot on the Run can't.  The two feats are defined differently, and thus allow different things.

I don't see it as niggly; just as the effects of the rules.

-Hyp.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 10, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> No, it makes its own "action" it seems.




Right.



> No, because now you have a whole new action which is technically not an attack action, it is a "attack as a standard action." Which, as is being clearly demonstrated, has implications beyond what is clearly spelled out in the feat description.




Yup.  The feat doesn't need to spell them out, because the effects can be found in the existing rules.



> The rules describe how to resolve an attack and a full attack; all variations should spring from those. We should NOT have to create a new sort of attack for every feat that lets you deviate from the rules.




Check footnote 7 on the Table of Action Types - "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action."  A melee attack isn't an action.  There are several actions that allow you to make a melee attack.

Spring Attack doesn't apply when you make a melee attack; it applies when you take the Attack action.  There are more actions than just Attack and Full Attack that allow one to make an attack; Charge is one, Cast a Spell (with a touch spell) is another, to pick just two examples.



> All of a sudden we are expected to make assumptions about how these special attacks are resolved, but find that we cannot assume it operates like an attack action in all ways...




We resolve them as attacks.  Just not as the Attack action.



> Think about it: I can't even make an assumption about whether or not I suffer an attack of opportunity when performing a dual strike.




For what reason would you suffer one?

-Hyp.


----------



## Psion (Jan 10, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> Yup.  The feat doesn't need to spell them out, because the effects can be found in the existing rules.




Those existing rules exist under the headings of "Attack" under "Standard action" and "Full Attack" under "Full Round Action", which the FAQ clearly demonstrates we cannot trust to be a default for the rules for this, since it deviates from those rules in ways not defined in the feat.



> Check footnote 7 on the Table of Action Types - "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action."  A melee attack isn't an action.  There are several actions that allow you to make a melee attack.




That would be an example of the right way to do it -- clearly delineate how the action/feat can be used in the action/feat description, and we explicitly know how, in the rules, to handle these actions without relying on some FAQ that is, in effect, de facto missing rules text.

Dual attack -- and manyshot -- lack any such clarification.



> Spring Attack doesn't apply when you make a melee attack; it applies when you take the Attack action.




You will not find the phrase "attack action" in the rules section on combat actions, except preceded by the word "full". The FAQ admits this much.

That makes it apparent to me that the word "action" is implicit after the standard action "attack" and the full round action "full attack".

You will find the phrase "attack (melee)" and "attack (ranged)", listed under action types.



> There are more actions than just Attack and Full Attack that allow one to make an attack; Charge is one, Cast a Spell (with a touch spell) is another, to pick just two examples.




And both of those are fully defined by the rules. I know explicitly that charging does not afford the enemy an attack of opportunity, for example, because the rules spell it out.



> We resolve them as attacks.  Just not as the Attack action.




That's insufficient under the rules. Attacks are only performed as part of one of several clearly defined actions, like attack (melee), charge, full attack, etc.



> For what reason would you suffer one?




I would not assume you would. But the only way that I could _*technically*_ come to this conclusion is by referencing boilerplate text in the rules of another action. Which again, the rulings on these feats demonstrate is clearly not a safe thing to do.


----------



## drnuncheon (Jan 10, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> I don't see it.




 So...nothing about that sounds even just a _little_ off to you?  It doesn't seem, I don't know, backwards to attack when not using an attack action?



			
				Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> For what reason would you suffer one?




 For the same reason you would suffer any other one - because that's what the rules say.  There's no measure for determining whether something would provoke an AoO in the real world - if there were, then they wouldn't have changed standing up from not provoking in 3.0 to provoking in 3.5.

 J


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 11, 2005)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> So...nothing about that sounds even just a _little_ off to you?  It doesn't seem, I don't know, backwards to attack when not using an attack action?




Not at all.  The Attack action allows you to make an attack.  It's not the only action that does so.



> For the same reason you would suffer any other one - because that's what the rules say.




With Dual Strike?  No, they don't.

With Manyshot?  Yes, they do indeed, because the text for Attacks of Opportunity states that attacking with a ranged weapon provokes an AoO.

-Hyp.


----------



## RonYon (Jan 11, 2005)

*Shadow bane Night stalker...*

Does this Prc reqiure a good alignment? Does it advance turning?


----------



## Kai Lord (Jan 11, 2005)

How about more details on the Beastmaster and Ghost-Faced Killer?


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 11, 2005)

Psion said:
			
		

> Dual attack -- and manyshot -- lack any such clarification.




What clarification is needed?  It says you use a standard action, and it says what you can do with that standard action.




> You will not find the phrase "attack action" in the rules section on combat actions, except preceded by the word "full". The FAQ admits this much.
> 
> That makes it apparent to me that the word "action" is implicit after the standard action "attack" and the full round action "full attack".




Right.  You can take any of the entries in the table, and put 'action' after them.  The Bull Rush action.  The Charge action.  The Cast a Spell action.

Which action do you use to take a wand out of its sheath?  The Draw a Weapon action.



> That's insufficient under the rules. Attacks are only performed as part of one of several clearly defined actions, like attack (melee), charge, full attack, etc.




And Manyshot and Dual Strike both allow you to take a standard action to attack in the fashion described by the feat.

Contrast this with Whirlwind Attack, for example, where the action is not 'a full round action', but 'the Full Attack action'.  Thus, you can use Combat Expertise in conjunction with Whirlwind Attack.

-Hyp.


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 11, 2005)

Pre-ordering this from Amazon is turning into a long wait. It's not even listed as released yet on their website. They have the date listed as February 5, 2005.  :\


----------



## Dalamar (Jan 11, 2005)

So... we wouldn't have this argument if Shot on the Run and Spring Attack had originally been worded "As a full-round action, you can move your speed, and make a single attack during any point of your move" instead of "When taking the attack action, you can move both before and after the attack, provided the total distance moved isn't greater than your speed"? Because it is those two feats that determined an attack action, not the Manyshot or Dual Strike feats.

Funny note: making a full attack with a bow does not draw attacks of opportunity, if you take it that the listing for Attack (ranged) under the Standard actions is an action type of its own instead of a thing you can do as a standard action.


----------



## Psion (Jan 11, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> With Manyshot?  Yes, they do indeed, because the text for Attacks of Opportunity states that attacking with a ranged weapon provokes an AoO.




That is called out in the table of _actions_.

Shot on the Run says you can make a ranged attack in the middle of a move... but the FAQ says that it can't be combined with manyshot.

Are you not getting what I am seeing as the hangup here? For AoO, it's apparently safe to assume that we can read the properties of the ranged attack action and apply it to manyshot. But for applying manyshot to shot on the run, all the sudden, it is not. Do you not see the dichotomy?

Anyway, I sense I am repeating myself. It's my considered opinion if the intent of Manyshot was it not be used with shot on the run, that it be spelled out in the feat.


----------



## KenM (Jan 11, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Pre-ordering this from Amazon is turning into a long wait. It's not even listed as released yet on their website. They have the date listed as February 5, 2005.  :\





  Thats why I ordered mine from DiscountRPG. I can't understand how Amazon gets books in so later then everyone else. When the new Harry Potter book comes out in July, will the people that ordered it from Amazon have to wait a month before it ships?

http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113363


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 11, 2005)

KenM said:
			
		

> Thats why I ordered mine from DiscountRPG. I can't understand how Amazon gets books in so later then everyone else. When the new Harry Potter book comes out in July, will the people that ordered it from Amazon have to wait a month before it ships?
> 
> http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113363




Well, I'll probably stick with www.stiggybaby.com. It's 30% off there and I've used them often in the past.


----------



## Dimwhit (Jan 11, 2005)

ivocaliban said:
			
		

> Pre-ordering this from Amazon is turning into a long wait. It's not even listed as released yet on their website. They have the date listed as February 5, 2005.  :\



 I did the same. I'm thinking that they'll still ship before Feb, they just haven't updated the date. I ordered it along with Complete Arcane with the free supersaver shipping. But then, I'm not horribly rushed. But I like the $39 for both, no shipping or tax added on.


----------



## Ankh-Morpork Guard (Jan 11, 2005)

Dimwhit said:
			
		

> I did the same. I'm thinking that they'll still ship before Feb, they just haven't updated the date. I ordered it along with Complete Arcane with the free supersaver shipping. But then, I'm not horribly rushed. But I like the $39 for both, no shipping or tax added on.



 Don't get your hopes up. Amazon has a habit of getting new releases a few weeks later than everyone else.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 11, 2005)

Dalamar said:
			
		

> Funny note: making a full attack with a bow does not draw attacks of opportunity...




Yes, it does.

The Full Attack action doesn't by itself, but attacking with a bow is 'attacking with a ranged weapon' - specifically given as an example of something that draws an AoO in the text for Attacks of Opportunity.

It's the same reason that Manyshot draws an AoO - you're not taking the Attack (ranged) action, but you are attacking with a ranged weapon.



			
				Psion said:
			
		

> That is called out in the table of actions.




Well, no, it isn't.  The Attack (Ranged) action is, but Manyshot doesn't use the Attack (Ranged) action.  It's a standard action... but because it's an attack with a ranged weapon, it draws an AoO _per the text of AoOs_.  Since the standard action used by Manyshot doesn't appear on the Table of Action Types, it _can't_ be from that table that we determine whether or not it provokes an AoO.



> Shot on the Run says you can make a ranged attack in the middle of a move...




No, it doesn't.  It says you can move both before and after the attack, when taking the attack action with a ranged weapon.



> ... but the FAQ says that it can't be combined with manyshot.




The FAQ restates what already exists in the Core Rules.  Manyshot is not the attack action with a ranged weapon; _that's_ why it can't be combined with Shot on the Run.



> For AoO, it's apparently safe to assume that we can read the properties of the ranged attack action and apply it to manyshot.




Why on earth would we do that?  I'm not.  I don't think the AoO properties of the Attack (Ranged) action apply to Manyshot at all.

I think the fact that you're attacking with a ranged weapon means that Manyshot provokes an AoO.  I'm not referencing the Attack action at all, simply reading the text for Attacks of Opportunity.

-Hyp.


----------



## RonYon (Jan 11, 2005)

*Shadow bane Night stalker...* 
Does this Prc reqiure a good alignment? Does it advance turning?
Are the requirements for the spelldagger mage class exclusive of clerics, or could a properly built cleric qualify?


----------



## Silveras (Jan 11, 2005)

RonYon said:
			
		

> *Shadow bane Night stalker...*
> Does this Prc reqiure a good alignment? Does it advance turning?
> Are the requirements for the spelldagger mage class exclusive of clerics, or could a properly built cleric qualify?




Both of these pairs of classes (Shadowbane Inquisitor and Shadowbane Stalker; Daggerspell Mage and Daggerspell Shaper) are members of organizations that team specific classes. 

The Daggerspell Guards (the organization) are arcane casters and Druids that are allied and have developed specific skills (presented as PrCs). The Daggerspell mage class requires arcane casting. 

The Shadowbane Inquisitors and Shadowbane Rogues are allied Paladins and Rogues, which act as a strike force against evil (both mundane criminals and monsters). The alignment requirement is Lawful Good. Neither of the two Shadowbane classes advances Turning ability.

[Edit: That's as they are written. Nothing says you cannot take the idea and run with it, modifying it to suit your campaign. ]


----------



## Tetsubo (Jan 11, 2005)

Tessarael said:
			
		

> As covered by Remathilis, they gain extraordinary special qualities at 7th level. Improved Wild Shape just gives extra forms that you can use for Wild Shape - i.e. Humanoid at 1st level, Giant and Large at 2nd, etc.
> 
> The levels at which the various forms are granted has changed. They don't get to wild shape to Undead, Outsider, or Magical Beast.




Undead and Outsider I can understand. But Magical Beast? They can assume the form of an Ooze or an Aberration but not a Magical Beast... that just doesn't make any sense. Dragons are OK, but not Magical Beasts...


----------



## JEL (Jan 11, 2005)

Oops.


----------



## ivocaliban (Jan 11, 2005)

I hope I can mention this without inspiring racial predjudice, but can someone shed some light on:

Maester (gnomish techno-mage)

*sighs* I really hate the fact that there's not a gaming store within three hours of me. Oh, well...at least Stiggybaby processed my order. So much for Amazon!


----------



## Gez (Jan 11, 2005)

Seen that elsewhere. Maesters craft magic items twice as fast as other people do (one day for 2000 gp instead of one day for 1000 gp), can _identify_ items at will by examinating them for one full minute and succeeding at a Spellcraft check, and get two bonus item creation feats, all that over five levels. Spellcasting progression is 4/5.


----------



## drnuncheon (Jan 11, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> With Dual Strike?  No, they don't.




 How do you know?  It's not on the table.  It doesn't say whether you do or don't.  You can _guess_ that you don't.



> With Manyshot? Yes, they do indeed, because the text for Attacks of Opportunity states that attacking with a ranged weapon provokes an AoO.




 But you're not attacking, you're taking the Manyshot standard action.  In fact, unlike such actions as 'Charge', which specifically says you may make a 'melee attack', Manyshot does not use the words ranged attack. You may be attacking, it may be at range, but you are not making a ranged attack. (Now why does that sound familiar? Hmm.)  Therefore, no AoO.

 J


----------



## Kai Lord (Jan 11, 2005)

I don't mean to hijack, but does anyone know where I can find a thread discussing the Complete Adventurer?  I'm curious about getting details on the Beastmaster and Ghost-Faced Killer.


----------



## Gez (Jan 11, 2005)

There. 

Beastmaster is a 10-level class, good BAB, good Fort and Ref, gets _speak with animals_ and several extra, but weak, animal companions. Prerequisites are Handle Animal 8, Survival 4, and Skill Focus: Handle Animal.

Ghost-Faced Killer is a 10-level class, good BAB, good Fort, several magical ninja-like abilities (including 3d6 of sudden strike, it's like Sneak Attack without the flanking). Requires to be evil, BAB +5, Hide 6, Concentration 4, Intimidate 8, Move Silently 6, Improved Initiative, Power Attack.


----------



## Wee Jas (Jan 11, 2005)

Whats the deal with the ninja class?  Any good?


----------



## Kai Lord (Jan 11, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> There.
> 
> Beastmaster is a 10-level class, good BAB, good Fort and Ref, gets _speak with animals_ and several extra, but weak, animal companions. Prerequisites are Handle Animal 8, Survival 4, and Skill Focus: Handle Animal.



Thanks.  Do the animals get any abilities beyond normal animal companions?


----------



## Spatula (Jan 11, 2005)

FireLance said:
			
		

> So, anybody else think that good BAB, two good saves, full arcane spell progression, full divine spell progression, and full bardic music and bardic knowledge advancement for the Fochlucan Lyrist is insane?



Seeing as it takes levels in 3 classes to get into, no, not really.  And "full arcane spell progression" is full _bard_ spell progression, not anywhere near as good as full wiz or sorc spell progression.


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 11, 2005)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> But you're not attacking, you're taking the Manyshot standard action.  In fact, unlike such actions as 'Charge', which specifically says you may make a 'melee attack', Manyshot does not use the words ranged attack. You may be attacking, it may be at range, but you are not making a ranged attack. (Now why does that sound familiar? Hmm.)  Therefore, no AoO.




"For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to *this attack*..."

It's definitely an attack.

You're using a bow - a ranged weapon.

The AoO is for _attacking with a ranged weapon_.  Manyshot is certainly _attacking with a ranged weapon_.

-Hyp.


----------



## Wil Harvey (Jan 12, 2005)

Guys, take the back-and-forth somewhere else. This thread is big enough. I don't need a couple pages of lengthy, irrelevant rules discussions getting in the way of actual Complete Adventurer information.


----------



## Tessarael (Jan 12, 2005)

Spatula said:
			
		

> Seeing as it takes levels in 3 classes to get into, no, not really.  And "full arcane spell progression" is full _bard_ spell progression, not anywhere near as good as full wiz or sorc spell progression.




Incorrect. It gives progression in any one arcane spellcasting class and in any one divine spellcasting class. 

You could meet the requirements with Bard 1 (for Bardic Music)/Druid 6 (for 1st level divine spells)/Monk 2 (for Evasion)/Wizard 1 (for 1st level arcane spells) then Fochlucan Lyricist 10 progressing in Druid and Wizard spellcasting. You'd end up with BAB +14, 16th level Druid spellcasting, 11th level Wizard spellcasting, 11th level Bardic Knowledge, 11 uses of Bardic music per day (only for Fascinate or with the bardic music feats though), and saves of +0/+2/+2 + +5/+2/+5 + +2/+2/+2 + +0/+0/+2 + +3/+7/+7 = +10/+13/+18. Rather nice.

To max out your BAB with Fochlucan Lyricist, I would go something like: Bard 4/Druid 4/Rogue 2/Fochlucan Lyricist 10 (similar to their example build), ending up with BAB +17.

The Fochlucan Lyricist should probably be BAB +3/4. That would give the first example which maxes out spellcasting a BAB of +11, and the second example which maxes out BAB a BAB of +14 (though you can hit BAB +15 with Bard 4/Druid 4/Rogue 4/Fochlucan Lyricist 8 in this case).

And as usual, multiclassed saving throws get ridiculous.


----------



## cignus_pfaccari (Jan 12, 2005)

Wee Jas said:
			
		

> Whats the deal with the ninja class?  Any good?




No.

Sorry, that was a cheap shot at someone's work, and I should be ashamed of myself.  

Seriously, it's...eh.  It's the same class as presented in Dragon, if you saw that.  I don't see the reason to have a wussier sneak attack variant than the rogue's.  Also, really, ninjae are supposed to be fast, so they should have the monk's enhanced movement.

The ki powers are kind of neat, but otherwise it's eh.  Rogue out-ninjas the ninja.

Brad


----------



## Banshee16 (Jan 12, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> My take on the Ninja: it's a nice class, but its sneak attack is LESS effective than a rogue, in that flanking doesn't let him sneak. Shouldn't a ninja be MORE deadly than a rogue with sneak attack ?
> 
> Maybe it's just me...




I'd tend to agree...but in all honesty, I'd be satisfied with them being as good at sneak attacking as a rogue.  I don't need them to be better.  But they should definitely be able to flank.  I remember a book I read that discussed some of their supposed unarmed combat techniques mentioned simple yet sneaky attacks like slipping a shuriken into someone's armpit when they're grappling, then forcing the arm down on it, and stuff like that.  I'd say that classifies as a sneak attack...

I'm less a fan of having them turn invisible or ethereal or whatever.

Banshee


----------



## Banshee16 (Jan 12, 2005)

drnuncheon said:
			
		

> If you want a "ninja" without the ninja magic, it's on page 49 of the PHB.




No....that's a rogue....a thief....a bandit..

By my definition, a ninja should be better at combat than a rogue.....but I would *not* say better than a fighter.

One's a miscreant of the streets, a possible scout or spy, and the other is basically a commando/spy/scout/actor that's been trained since the age of 5 in their arts..

Same thing with how there is a samurai, and then there's a fighter.  Very different things.  It's also why I like the cavalier base class for knights, rather than fighters.  Both samurai and cavaliers should be much more skill focused warriors than fighters are....they're good at diplomacy, some knowledge skills, and a bunch of other things than simply jump, climb, swim, ride, craft.

Banshee


----------



## Ruvion (Jan 12, 2005)

Hmmm...since the age of 5? been reading too many glorified ninja books haven't you? if going historically, a 3rd edition rogue just may out-fight and out-ninja the ninja. the perception of how well a ninja should perform differs from ppl to ppl i guess.


----------



## drnuncheon (Jan 12, 2005)

Banshee16 said:
			
		

> No....that's a rogue....a thief....a bandit..




 ...a sailor, a scout, a minstrel, a spy, an assassin, a craftsman, an explorer, a salesman, an actor...

 Let me guess - you want the katana to have better stats, too?

 J


----------



## Xyvs (Jan 12, 2005)

*Anything for archer types?*

Hi. I was hoping someone who has the book can answer a couple questions for me. I am looking to create a cleric of Ehlonna who is also a archery warrior. Right now, I am speccing her out as a cleric/ranger. But I was wondering if the scout might be better.

-Can someone with the book tell me how the skrimish damage progresses?
-Also, when does the scout gain evasion and uncanny dodge?
-What type of feats does the scout get and at what levels?
-Does the scout have good reflex saves and poor will and fort saves?
-Is tumble a scout skill?

-Do you think a ranger would better fit the archer archetype? Or the scout? The one thing that worries me about the scout is its medium BAB. Don't know if I want to take the bab hit when I already have cleric levels.

-Also, any good new spells for the ranger that enhance their archery abilities?

Thanks!

Oh, and anyone from the Irvine area know of a good game store close to campus that has the book?

X


----------



## Silveras (Jan 13, 2005)

Xyvs said:
			
		

> Hi. I was hoping someone who has the book can answer a couple questions for me. I am looking to create a cleric of Ehlonna who is also a archery warrior. Right now, I am speccing her out as a cleric/ranger. But I was wondering if the scout might be better.
> 
> -Can someone with the book tell me how the skrimish damage progresses?
> -Also, when does the scout gain evasion and uncanny dodge?
> ...




1) Every odd level starting at 3rd (3, 5, 7, 9, 11, etc., either damage dice or AC bonus improves. 
2) Evasion 5th, Uncanny Dodge 2nd
3) every 4 levels (4, 8, 12, etc.). The feats are from the "woodsy", "movement enhancing" and some ranged combat enhancement groups. Interestingly, they get Rapid Reload but not Rapid Shot or Manyshot, presumably to keep some distiction from the Ranger. 
4) Yes
5) Yes

The illustration for the class shows an archer. Yes, it could make a decent archer, I think. The Scout seems like an attempt at a "non-spellcasting" version of the Ranger, in some ways, more focused on a pure woodsman/scouting role without the semi-druid features. 

Spells ? Five 1st level Ranger spells enhance ranged attacks. One lets you use sneak attacks beyond 30 ft (for the Ranger/Rogue); another increases the range increment for your weapon for a while; a third removes the range penalties entirely for 1 round; the fourth auto-confirms critical threats against favored enemies; the fifth lets you threaten nearby squares with your bow so you can fire with no AoOs.


----------



## Marshall (Jan 14, 2005)

Hypersmurf said:
			
		

> The Attack (Ranged) action is, but Manyshot doesn't use the Attack (Ranged) action.  It's a standard action... but because it's an attack with a ranged weapon, it draws an AoO _per the text of AoOs_.





> Manyshot is not the attack action with a ranged weapon; _that's_ why it can't be combined with Shot on the Run.




Hence, if you read it the way Skip did, Manyshot doesnt draw an AoO. 
Its not an *Attack* with a ranged weapon, its a _Manyshot_ with a ranged weapon.

Its a whole heck of a lot easier all around to just admit that Skip was full of BS 90% of the time. Note that there is no balance reason to disallow MS+SotR, and by extension SA+DS. And just get on with our lives...


----------



## Hypersmurf (Jan 14, 2005)

Marshall said:
			
		

> Hence, if you read it the way Skip did, Manyshot doesnt draw an AoO.




Of course it does.



> Its not an *Attack* with a ranged weapon, its a _Manyshot_ with a ranged weapon.




It's not the Attack _action_ with a ranged weapon.  It's still an attack: just read the feat.  "_For every five points of base attack bonus you have above +6, you may add one additional arrow to *this attack*._"

It's clearly an attack; it's with a ranged weapon; attacking with a ranged weapon provokes an AoO.

"_Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Casting a spell and attacking with a ranged weapon, for example, are distracting actions._"

-Hyp.


----------



## Gez (Jan 14, 2005)

Kewl. Hypersmurf and co. just demonstrated why everybody should ban Manyshot and similar feats.


----------



## Morrow (Jan 14, 2005)

Gez said:
			
		

> Kewl. Hypersmurf and co. just demonstrated why everybody should ban Manyshot and similar feats.




I disagree.  Every feat is currently formated like this:



> FEAT NAME [TYPE OF FEAT]
> Prerequisite: A minimum ability score, another feat or feats, a minimum base attack bonus, a minimum number of ranks in one or more skills, or a class level that a character must have in order to acquire this feat. This entry is absent if a feat has no prerequisite. A feat may have more than one prerequisite.
> Benefit: What the feat enables the character (“you” in the feat description) to do. If a character has the same feat more than once, its benefits do not stack unless indicated otherwise in the description.
> In general, having a feat twice is the same as having it once.
> ...




Hypersmurf and company have just demonstrated that between the "Prerequisite" and "Benefit" lines, there should be an "Action" line which clearly states what kind of action it is to use the feat.  Otherwise, we're forced to parse the "Benefit" and "Normal" text, and get into laborious arguments like the one chronicled above.

They've also demonstrated that even our most conscientious board citizens can't stay on topic when a point of rules minutia presents itself.  "Gee," thinks Morrow to himself, "this thread about Complete Adventurer would be really useful, if it was actually about Complete Adventurer."     

Morrow

EDIT: That's "Conscientious," not "Contentious."  Stupid spell-checker.


----------



## Gez (Jan 14, 2005)

Contentious did fit, however.


----------

