# Skill Boost Items (Complete Adventurer)



## Trainz (Jan 8, 2005)

Greetings,

Allow me to present to you a friend of mine, Pandora. She has a box, let's open it, shall we...

This has been a quite popular subject, some would say I'm beating on the putrefied skeleton of a poor long dead horse, but new info (to me at least) has been brought through Complete Adventurer, and I wish to launch a little brainstorming session.

I posted the following in another thread from the Complete Adventurer I just bought today (an awesome book BTW). This is a new magic item from CAdv:



> Choker of Eloquence (Greater): +10 on Diplomacy, Bluff, and Perform (sing) checks. So basically +10 on 3 skills.
> 
> Here's the fun part: CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items (NO OTHER PREREQUISITES !), 24,000 g.p..




Now given that the DMG tells us to base ourselves on already existing items to price and/or allow new magic items, it is safe to say that now a 6th level caster (arcane or divine, it doesn't matter really) can create a +10 to 3 skills item with no other prerequisite than having the Craft Wondrous Items feat. It would also cost him 12,000 g.p. and 960 x.p..

The DM in me rolls his eyes, but the munchkin in me giggles inanely.

Now the Choker of Eloquence is obviously created around a theme, so I guess other +10 to 3 skills items should also be built around a theme. So here are a few examples, following all those guidelines.

Slippers of Agility (Greater): +10 on Tumble, Balance, and Escape Artist. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Necklace of Infiltration (Greater): +10 on Move Silently, Hide, and Escape Artist. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Hat of the Mage (Greater): +10 on Spellcraft, Knowledge (Arcana), and Concentration. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Hat of the Pious (Greater): +10 on Spellcraft, Knowledge (Religion), and Concentration. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Circlet of Alertness (Greater): +10 on Listen, Spot, and Sense Motive. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Bracelet of Devices (Greater): +10 on Search, Disable Device, and Open Lock. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Vest of Athletic Might (Greater): +10 on Climb, Jump, and Swim. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Sash of Swashbuckling (Greater): +10 on Bluff, Tumble, and Escape Artist. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

Cloak of the Warlock: +10 on Use Magic Device, Concentration, and Spellcraft. CL 6th, Craft Wondrous Items, 24,000 g.p.

...

Don't get me wrong, if no-one has a problem with this, I'd love to have one of these baubles for my character. It just seems... out of line.


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## Darkness (Jan 8, 2005)

*gulp* Right, that's a little on the cheap side.

I think I like the DMG's suggestion better:

+10 to a skill = 10*10*100 = 10,000 gp

So one item with +10 to 3 skills would be: 10k + 15k +15k = 40k


Maybe they switched the 2 and the 4 accidentally and will correct this mistake post haste. (edit - And I'm not sure I would like the precedent at even that price.)











...Hey, I can dream, can't I?


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## Trainz (Jan 8, 2005)

Darkness said:
			
		

> *gulp* Right, that's a little on the cheap side.




You think ?



> (edit - And I'm not sure I would like the precedent at even that price.)




The precedent is huge.

The "theme" parameter is just an assumption, it's not really a rule.

Any rogue would KILL for a +10 on bluff (invisible blade), use magic device (bring those wands baby) and tumble.

We shall dub this bauble the Girdle of the Lollypop Guild.


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## Iku Rex (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> This is a new magic item from CAdv:



Actually, it's an old item (from Arms and Equipment Guide, +10 Diplomacy, Bluff, Innuendo, Perform [vocal only], 6000 gp) updated to 3.5 and re-priced. 

Like Darkness said it's too cheap, but aside from that it's hardly a ground-breaking precedent. Competence bonuses to skills are about as basic as you can get when it comes to item creation. 

(The closest Core item, Circlet of Persuasion, 4500 gp, grants a +3 competence bonus to _all _ charisma-based checks. Looks like bonus squared/2 * 1000. Extrapolate that and a "+10 to all charisma-based checks" item is 50000 gp.)


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## dcollins (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong, if no-one has a problem with this, I'd love to have one of these baubles for my character. It just seems... out of line.




I agree with you, that the extrapolated examples are out-of-line. This problem goes away most easily by recognizing that all new items are House Rules, and that such extrapolation is not automatically available to players.

If you do allow new item invention, as the DMG says, "other items require at least some DM judgement calls". In this case, the required judgement call is that some skills are more valuable than others. Innuendo and Perform, for example, are on the low side -- Spellcraft and Use Magic device, being on the upper side and very potent in-game.


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## Thanee (Jan 8, 2005)

There are plenty magic items, which are below the price from the guideline... it's a judgement call.

Here they obviously thought, that the disadvantage, that you have to get all three skill bonuses at once, while maybe not all are useful for you, and that the skills are close together to be considered similar (yes, there is no written rule about this) in some way (no DM should allow such an item with Use Magic Device, Tumble and Bluff, for example, as it does not carry the same limits).

I think the price is ok (a +10 to one skill item is usually superior, given the better (yes, better) cost-use ratio), the lack of prerequisites is another topic, however.

I mean who would really buy gloves of climbing and swimming instead of seperate gloves of climbing and gloves of swimming?

Bye
Thanee


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## Scion (Jan 8, 2005)

Definately looks like they used the 'similar ability' rule for item creation.

I dont see a huge problem with it, so long as certain skills are not able to be on the same item. This is probably easier than listing every skill with a different price (which of course I would prefer, a +100 to jump is interesting but still unlikely to break games, even +30 on diplomacy can kill all sorts of things).

So long as each item has a good bit of flavor I see no problems. 24k is still a pretty big price and since you typically cannot use two or more of these skills at the same time anyway having a reduced price isnt a big deal. It is that or simply have multiple items that are switched for various situations.


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## Gez (Jan 8, 2005)

Dang, you sure like Escape Artist a lot!

Make me a +10 Concentration, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device item I will... :yoda:


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## Trainz (Jan 8, 2005)

What is the rule on pricing unslotted items (such has pearl of power, ioun stone et al) ?

Anyways, I think the dangerous precedent here is the caster level 6, no prereq (create wondrous items only). Basically then, a 6th level caster with the feat could add a +10 on any skill he wishes for only 5,000 g.p. and 400 x.p..

If you guys don't think that's over the top, my players will kiss you.


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## Scion (Jan 8, 2005)

you feel that it is dangerous to let characters make skill bonus items?


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## ThoughtfulOwl (Jan 8, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> What is the rule on pricing unslotted items (such has pearl of power, ioun stone et al) ?
> 
> Anyways, I think the dangerous precedent here is the caster level 6, no prereq (create wondrous items only). Basically then, a 6th level caster with the feat could add a +10 on any skill he wishes for only 5,000 g.p. and 400 x.p..
> 
> If you guys don't think that's over the top, my players will kiss you.




If the bonuses are counted as similar abilities, the price is about right.
+10 skill bonus: 10^2 x 100 gp = 10000 gp
2nd similar ability: 10000 x 75% = 7500 gp
3rd similar ability: 10000 x 50% = 5000 gp
Total: 22500 gp

(I guess it's a slotted item - does it count as a necklace?)

If anything the actual price is slightly above the pricing guidelines.

The standard wealth for a sixth-level PG is 13000 gp; they might afford to create it if the entire party pools the spare money to afford _one_. For a group of four PCs, it means placing about 45% of the party wealth in a single item; it's quite a risk and denies many other choices.

I wouldn't consider these items as cheap until the middle to high levels.


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## Trainz (Jan 8, 2005)

Scion said:
			
		

> you feel that it is dangerous to let characters make skill bonus items?




No, I don't really (despite what I might have suggested).

Maybe it's much ado about nothing. It's just that in the whole DM's guide, every skill boost item has a prerequisite to create. If they don't anymore, fine, I won't complain. I was just pointing out something that caught my eye.

And what ThoughtfulOwl has pointed out above does put the whole thing under a new light. They are cheap, but not THAT cheap.


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## Thanee (Jan 9, 2005)

Trainz said:
			
		

> Anyways, I think the dangerous precedent here is the caster level 6, no prereq (create wondrous items only). Basically then, a 6th level caster with the feat could add a +10 on any skill he wishes for only 5,000 g.p. and 400 x.p.




And what is the big difference to the DMG skill items?

You don't need the skill as a prerequisite there either, just some related spell (i.e. appropriate animal buff), which by 6th level would not be much of a problem to have.

Bye
Thanee


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## Crosshair (Jan 9, 2005)

Once again Cross uses his Epic level handbook references. And such.

First off, I don't think items that give bonuses to non-physical skills should be allowed. There's magic for jumping and running, swimming, moving silently(Str and Dex skills respectively). There aren't really equivalent spells for helping you cast spells better, or knowing what they are. Some of the items are warranted, theres spells such as glibness for lying.

Now for the Epic items.

Rod of Epic spellcasting
Gives you a +10 insight bonus on your spellcraft check to cast Epic spells and only epic spell, while you're carrying it in hand.
Insight bonuses to ability scores are Bonus^2*2500 rather than *2000, IIRC.
So the interesting part is the rod is 245,000.

Me and my terrible references to ELH..


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## Trainz (Jan 9, 2005)

Crosshair said:
			
		

> Now for the Epic items.
> 
> Rod of Epic spellcasting
> Gives you a +10 insight bonus on your spellcraft check to cast Epic spells and only epic spell, while you're carrying it in hand.
> ...




Heh.

A +10 to only one skill, and a limited one at that (only for epic spellcasting purposes).

245,000 gold pieces.

Interesting conundrum to say the least.


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## Scion (Jan 9, 2005)

not especially, it isnt like the epic rules are a good place to go to find out balance one way or the other.


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## Iku Rex (Jan 9, 2005)

If you want examples of [+X skill] item pricing, take a look at the PsiH. 



> Crystal Masks: Each of the various types of crystal masks fits over the face of any Medium or Small humanoid, with slits for eyes and nostrils. The mask is transparent, although it distorts the wearer’s features. Leather straps attached to small holes on the sides of a mask enable the owner to affix the mask to his face.
> Crystal masks confer special abilities or improved skills on their wearers.
> A crystal mask is treated as eyewear or goggles for the purpose of determining which items can be worn on the body.
> Crystal Mask of Detection: The wearer of a crystal mask of detection can make* Search checks with a +10 competence bonus*.
> ...


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## Tarril Wolfeye (Jan 9, 2005)

Iku Rex said:
			
		

> If you want examples of [+X skill] item pricing, take a look at the PsiH.



All of these use bonus squared x 100.
The interesting one is this:


> Crystal Mask of Insightful Detection: The wearer of a crystal mask of insightful detection can make Search checks and Spot checks checks with a +9 insight bonus.
> Moderate clairsentience; ML 7th; Craft Universal Item, creator must have 9 ranks in both Search and Spot; Price 20,250 gp; Weight 1/2 lb.



This one uses the pricing for abilities not similar:
9x9x100 + 9x9x100x1.5 = 8100 + 8100 x 1.5 = 20.250 exactly.
Well, it seems WotC doesn't know which abilities to call similar or not.


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## Thanee (Jan 9, 2005)

Don't forget, that the books are written by different people.

For example, the XPH items have skill ranks as a prerequisite, which the DMG does not have, tho that's not a bad move.

Now the item in the CAdv does work _completely_ different for some reason. 

Anyways... I think it's absolutely right to apply the "different" multiplier to Spot/Listen, as both are highly useful at the same time, there is no reason to give a cost reduction (which I can see better when putting Bluff, Diplomacy and Perform (sing) together).

Bye
Thanee


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## ThoughtfulOwl (Jan 9, 2005)

Consider that between Diplomacy, Bluff and Perform (sing), you are unlikely to use more than one in the same encounter, which one depending on your social approach; Spot and Search OTOH can come along together quite often. Of course YMMV.


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## Angel Tarragon (Jan 9, 2005)

What the heck does YMMV mean?


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## silentspace (Jan 9, 2005)

Hmm.

In 3.0, skill items were bonus squared x 20 gp.

So the original Choker of Eloquence, in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide, at 6,000 gp, was close to being right at 2,000 + 2,000 + 2,000. But it should have been 2,000 + 3,000 + 3,000 = 8,000 gp. That's in 3.0. How they came up with 24,000 in 3.5 boggles the mind.  About the prerequisites, really, why do you need Craft Wondrous Item? Why not delete that and replace it with 'Special: Must have given an eloquent speech'?

OK, sorry for the sarcasm.

The Circlet of Persuasion is 4,500 gp in both 3.0 and 3.5, which seems like another cut and paste error.  3 x 3 x 500 = 4,500.  Skill items in 3.5 are 5 times more expensive than in 3.0 (bonus squared x 100 vs bonus squared x 20), so if we extrapolate, the price of a Circlet of Persuasion in 3.5 would be 3 x 3 x 2,500 = 22,500 gp.  

The crystal mask of discernment giving an insight bonus is wrong wrong wrong.


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## shilsen (Jan 9, 2005)

Frukathka said:
			
		

> What the heck does YMMV mean?



 Your Mileage May Vary


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## Angel Tarragon (Jan 9, 2005)

aha! Thanks Shilsen!


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## Thanee (Jan 9, 2005)

silentspace said:
			
		

> How they came up with 24,000 in 3.5 boggles the mind.




I'd say in the same or a similar way as they came up with the price for the _belt of many pockets_ (CA, but T&B also lists the explanation for the price, which is the same as in CA).

Bye
Thanee


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